{"total":{"value":91,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-11-18"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"16279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16279","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ef0f9f44450827e57506acfff3766fc82edb79b8bfb08e799389798301918c8925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-18T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、行政院函請審議、委員賴士葆等25人、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等19人、委員賴惠員等37人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「證券交易稅條例部分條文修正草案」、委員羅明才等20人、委員林楚茵等19人、委員李坤城等22人分別擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」及委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。二、本院委員郭國文等17人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」，請審議案。（逕付二讀））","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-18","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-18T12:30:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T13:34:00+08:00","duration":3827,"影片長度":"01:03:47","委員發言時間":"12:30:13 - 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謝謝 不好意思我們現在開始進入協商的主題《證券交易稅條例修正草案》除了委員會審查的10個版本以外上有本院郭公文委員等17人擬具《證券交易稅條例第二條之二修正草案》請審議案 經負二讀首先我先介紹我們在場的委員羅明才委員"},{"start":2457.319,"end":2468.744,"text":"黃珊珊委員、郭國文委員財政部莊部長、收入署宋署長、經管會陳彥良副主委、政區局黃滬局長、法務部林參事"},{"start":2488.12,"end":2493.042,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2504.755,"end":2525.028,"text":"好 那接下來我們請各提案委員、黨團代表、政府官員、財政部、莊部長分別就本次協商的主題《證券交易稅法條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案》等案審查會保留第二條之二及第十六條條文表達意見"},{"start":2530.419,"end":2552.772,"text":"請羅明才委員謝謝召委我想當沖降稅從過去開始時到現在待會請部長回答一下就是當沖降稅對稅收來講我們的稅收是增加還是減少增加的部分大概增加多少"},{"start":2553.692,"end":2573.18,"text":"那本席所提的案是配合金管會的彭主委整個發展亞洲的資產管理中心所以本席有提案是當中降稅延長五年所以本席的這個理念上是給予支持"},{"start":2573.86,"end":2601.762,"text":"因為現在動盪不安川普又當選我們希望說更穩定的稅制以免造成市場的衝擊那另外一個就是我在這裡要說明如果說五年大家願意支持那就五年通過如果五年不支持退而求其次說必須一定要三年那我也表示支持所以我可以先行告退了"},{"start":2607.639,"end":2609.891,"text":"謝謝明才,那接著請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":2611.254,"end":2630.951,"text":"好謝謝召委我想那個台灣民眾黨在我們提案的時候也是一樣就是說到底當沖降稅是不是常態化還是希望政府部門是很明確的態度第二個如果真的要延的話因為已經延過兩次那接下去要繼續延我們也希望它是一個遞減的狀態那但是我也知道說因為現在國際經濟狀況不明確當然對於台灣來說這個的確是讓我們雖然"},{"start":2637.616,"end":2664.451,"text":"當沖降稅的稅少了但是也因為交易量增加了那當然也有很多的稅收那重點是我還是剛剛有跟主委這邊副主委這邊說我們希望將來的檢討三年後如果你真的要三年你還是要有個檢討那這個檢討的指標是什麼每一次碰到當沖降稅的它的原因、理由還有為什麼要當沖降稅的這些指標現在可能就把它定清楚"},{"start":2665.111,"end":2687.331,"text":"那我們希望這樣會將來以後不會變成又是又有兩派的意見然後互相的拉扯我覺得也沒什麼必要就是你把你降因為稅就在那你要降你要有理由嘛那個理由就很清楚的充分的告訴大家如果你一直都在降那就直接告訴我們就不要那個稅啊那為什麼又要訂那個稅然後又要一直降這個怪怪的啦"},{"start":2687.951,"end":2711.999,"text":"如果要做那就把它明確化、明文化或制度化那第二個部分就我們今天有簡單如果說三年是一個指標的話我覺得第四年、第五年我也認為應該現在就可以把第四年、第五年講清楚之後就是地檢然後過國委員是兩年然後就不准再延那我們說你要不延也可以但是慢慢地降回去降到將來就不延了"},{"start":2712.199,"end":2729.129,"text":"我覺得這個也需要金管會跟財政部有一個立場很清楚的表達說你到底評估的方式是什麼然後指標理由是什麼如果沒有的話我覺得我們就不支持你繼續這樣然後每三年就用一個案子來這邊好像"},{"start":2730.396,"end":2750.067,"text":"黨的人又是壞人黨的人好像又是怎樣我覺得不好啦應該是說現在就應該政府的機制應該是穩定的長遠的那定出來的標準就按照那個標準來而不是每天用買菜的方式這個同意那個不同意我覺得沒有不好而且重要的是我們在因應國際社會的狀況我們的指標是什麼可能定出來比較好謝謝"},{"start":2752.36,"end":2780.763,"text":"好 謝謝珊珊我補介紹那個李坤城委員謝謝接著請郭國文委員發言好 謝謝主席我想當沖降稅重點不是降稅當初知事會談當沖降稅是為了造勢而降稅當初的那個市場的交易量不過是大概一千多一千四百沒有 那個甚至有到八百億然後後來慢慢回落到一千四然後後來才有一個當沖降稅的這個機制的存在"},{"start":2781.663,"end":2803.897,"text":"當中江穗這個機制的存在之後在當初我們認為這個交易量不足我記得沒有錯的話是從3000多億降到1000多億大家就非常緊張那問題是現在已經4000多億了那到底你要造勢到造什麼階段那明明政策目標已經到了你就應該要退場那你沒有退場"},{"start":2804.918,"end":2829.908,"text":"不但沒有退場還要延長不但延長甚至還要加碼想要把它法制化就是說我是覺得這個是沒道理的事情就是說就現階段的這個市場交易熱絡的情況底下當通調稅理當就應該退場了因為不是為了降稅而降稅如果為了減少交易成本而降而刺激這一個交易量的話那我很簡單啊"},{"start":2831.189,"end":2845.331,"text":"對業者講他自己可以免手續費啊為什麼要減少國家的稅收而且當中降稅你降到的結果是什麼樣其實老實講你衝兩次不就又回來了嗎你到底有沒有降到稅啊"},{"start":2846.572,"end":2874.031,"text":"到底有沒有降到稅我多沖兩次而已沖動的就沖兩次那這個沖動的結果呢是讓整個股市的震盪更加不安而已因為成本很便宜嘛大家就很用力沖嘛股市更加多讓他不安如果就剛剛羅委員的講法抱歉不是來吐槽如果真的要股市安定的話千萬不要當沖因為當沖成本很低大家更加要一直沖那川普的問題不是在這邊所以我這次之所以我會提出一個兩年"},{"start":2874.491,"end":2891.549,"text":"我是不得已的因為基本上馬上這個落日又很困難一年好像要太快只好兩年兩年以後下不為例這就是我的主張好 謝謝國委我民進黨是三年我是兩年民進黨也不是一言堂好 請崑禎委員發言"},{"start":2893.1,"end":2918.599,"text":"不會啊,不是宴堂,像我跟國文委員就不一樣啦我跟財政部、跟局管委員不一樣那其實齁,這個好像大概每三四年就會修一次啦那我們這次的版本是說到這個2017年嘛,到2017年,就是延長三年那我的版本齁,不好意思,我的版本是四年啦"},{"start":2922.748,"end":2940.442,"text":"不是我的四...我的四年不是說金管會財政部加起來5加3除以2等於4啦我主要是考慮到如果我們是到這個2017年底的話等於是2027年底啦那這個2028年就要選總統"},{"start":2946.306,"end":2968.389,"text":"那你如果說延長3年到2027年底那時候大家一定又再吵一次就是說那是不是還要再延長那我相信在那時候的這個選舉的氛圍我想大概延長機會也很大啦那我在想說那要不然就是說一個折衷的方式就是說那我們是不是延長4年到2028年"},{"start":2969.93,"end":2991.219,"text":"那2028年就是說至少避開了這個2027年總統大選的那一個時間然後這個2028年之後那有這個當然如果賴總統繼續連任當然院長有可能會換人那到時候再來決定再來決定就是說那是不是這個接下來我們這一個這個"},{"start":2995.482,"end":3024.842,"text":"這個法剛好怎麼修比較可長則久啦不然這個我們這個法大概三四年就修一次三四年就修一次我覺得也沒有這個法的一個安定性在啦那所以這個既然現在這個財政部跟金管會已經有達成共識那現在就是說那到底是幾年比較好兩年有兩年的說法那我當然四年有四年的說法啦那這個就看大家能不能談出一個共識出來以上"},{"start":3026.223,"end":3035.65,"text":"好,謝謝崑城,我想那個李崑城委員的四年,羅明才委員的五年那33N委員的JT4的一個遞減,那郭文貴委員的兩年"},{"start":3038.154,"end":3065.977,"text":"加落日條款那接著請財政部長就是針對每一位委員的一個建議那就是說財政部的一個看法跟意見來補充說明一下是,謝謝,謝謝昭緯謝謝各位委員我想我們的當沖降稅從106年實施以來已經看到它的效果第一個也提升了市場的成交量跟流動性那投資人的相關交易成本也所下降"},{"start":3066.477,"end":3075.143,"text":"那法律上因為到今年年底屆期那其實我們在半年前就開始跟金管會不管是資料的提供或商戶的討論我們認為就是說證券市場容易受到國際政治還有經濟情勢變動的影響"},{"start":3081.767,"end":3084.29,"text":"我們認為如果要維持證券市場交易的一個動能而且能夠促進市場穩定的發展還有降低一個不確定性我們認為這個當沖降稅呢就可以延長那至於期間的問題當然委員都有不同的意見比如說"},{"start":3097.262,"end":3112.234,"text":"那我們院版本經過討論以後認為還是以三年因為之前的延長大概都是第一次是一年之後是三年八個月第二次是三年我們認為就不要比這個更長那這個三年期間呢其實屆滿之前可以再做一次檢討如果是把它縮短為兩年的話那可能實施一年以後就要開始進行相關的檢討所以是支出評估整個期限比較短"},{"start":3121.281,"end":3142.219,"text":"那麼對於投資人來說他可能覺得一個不確定性過高影響他這個投資的一個信心的影響這個是為什麼沒有考慮兩年的部分那五年可能又有一些長為什麼因為其實經濟情勢的變化有時候是蠻快到五年的時候事實上要到四年以後才會繼續做檢討或者再來做重新的評估我們認為這個時間他可能比較長那如果以三年的話我們認為是比較合宜的"},{"start":3148.945,"end":3162.274,"text":"那有關民眾黨委員這邊所提出來是以階梯式的一個調整的話也就是前三年是用1.5第四年跟第五年又做階梯性調整其實三年兩年半以後的情況國際政經情勢情況"},{"start":3166.056,"end":3187.083,"text":"大家也許現在可以做一些預測預期但是事實上的狀況有很多是無法預期的因素也會發生所以我們認為說到那個時候要再做檢討會比較好現在就直接把它定成三年次多少然後第四年次多少、第五年次多少缺乏了這種一個期間內就可以做一些評估跟檢討的一個機制所以我們認為說這個部分"},{"start":3189.102,"end":3212.585,"text":"是不是可以支持院版本就是延長的期間是三年為宜以上的說明好 謝謝部長那個金管會副主委是不是就是金管會的一個立場來表達一下是 金管會也是支持這個行政院的原案那當然啦我們講說光譜兩端兩年到五年之間其實我們也有一個所謂的"},{"start":3213.846,"end":3241.903,"text":"這是不算真正慣例的慣例啦 三年那三年這部分的話就是說當然上山委員也有提到就是說我們在這個地方的一個調整那我也覺得 而且其實郭文貴委員真的我們也能理解或者說其實真的這樣子一直的永遠的一點也是一個很奇怪的一個方式但是真的其實剛剛如從部長所講的國際情勢在這個地方真的是瞬息萬變或這個地方"},{"start":3243.004,"end":3266.269,"text":"所以在這種的情況之下一個明確的落日條款或這一些其實的確我們到那個時候假設一個快速的演變我們要再去修法其實說實話而且我們覺得這種當沖降稅當沖本來就是個中性而當沖降或不降其實變成一種訊號理論就是說我們政府對於這個股是一個採取一個什麼訊號我覺得我很擔心這種東西隨時我們發出一個什麼訊號會再加上國際情勢是不穩定的"},{"start":3272.43,"end":3298.935,"text":"當然還有一點可以贊成就是我也覺得啦那我剛也責稱我們的棋局這一邊對於將來的一個我們評估的一些要素啦要點或這個地方其實這個地方我們也遵照國務委員、三商委員的一個指示我們會把這個因素啊以及這個要件把它定出來明確一些這樣子它來做一個評估的話可能也會比較就是說會更順暢一些謝謝"},{"start":3306.219,"end":3324.635,"text":"郭文我剛剛陳副主委說的訊號的理論確實是一個訊號是什麼訊號?就是股市已經相對成交量已經健全了你取消掉就說我已經進健全了明明身體已經很健康了你還一直讓他吃這個藥這反而以後會有副作用所以你該不該斷然"},{"start":3327.678,"end":3352.925,"text":"斷然停止停藥你就要停藥不要一直再吃下去了就是你的訊號很簡單啊你說我的成交量已經夠了嘛更何況現實上來看台灣目前的資本幾乎接近氾濫的階段錢會往哪裡跑不是往房地產不然就往股市那大家現在資本那個信用管制它不可能再一直往房地產跑啊那會往哪邊跑往股市這邊跑"},{"start":3353.365,"end":3369.376,"text":"第2個,我們的ETF長期的投資工具越來越健全接下來還有REITS這樣你股市還怕什麼?你還怕什麼?就差一個沒有TESA而已不是嗎?部長、署長對不對?對啊,TESA我們還沒有達成共識嘛,對不對?"},{"start":3370.217,"end":3387.632,"text":"這樣的TISA、RIS還有包括ETF建構起來的股票市場的那個機盤就夠大了根本不需要這個當沖降稅所以我所在的三年兩年我是不曉得珊珊委員的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":3388.553,"end":3398.386,"text":"我最重要的是你要對外宣示說我就是ok我對股票市場非常有信心三年之後我如果真的是三年兩年之後最重要的是我什麼時候斷奶什麼時候斷藥趕快講清楚"},{"start":3402.029,"end":3422.133,"text":"這不講清楚你講完之後這一次給你之後你下次還是左三年、右三年、再三年、來三年就繼續一直連任下去要搞到什麼時候這沒道理嘛你覺得對社會沒有道理嘛真正不確定性是不是市場啊真正不確定是政府啊政府的決策決策才真正不確定性啊常常要延長這問題點是在這邊啊不是在市場啊那個崑禎委員有沒有要補充的"},{"start":3428.991,"end":3443.38,"text":"沒有就是說齁這個不確定性就是在於說齁那我們三年之後就算今天財政部的版本金管會版本通過三年那我的意思是說三年之後大家一定會再討論那時候就正逢總統大選"},{"start":3445.426,"end":3464.562,"text":"那要嘛就是說我的版本就是四年總統大選之後再來討論那要嘛就是國文版本的、委員的還有版本那我們是不是有一個落入條款就是不然我跟你講三年之後我們還是會繼續來討論要不要再演三年一定是這樣子的啊那時候分我一定是要演啊"},{"start":3465.943,"end":3491.901,"text":"不言的話就表示說我們執政黨對股市這個沒有要去維護或是沒有要去怎麼樣給它信心怎麼之類的會變成這樣子啦我現在都可以預想到三年之後的樣子那個主席羅明才委員已經不在了啦不是不在啦他已經離開了現在黃三二委員在這邊嘛我們基本上都傾向落日條款嘛不然你就到年限你再加一個落日啊就做你今天的決議啊對啊好"},{"start":3495.731,"end":3523.664,"text":"那顯然就是在場的委員你們都提出來非常精闢的一個建議那我還是要再問一下如果我們照行政院版你們同意不同意顯然你們是不同意嘛三年假落日來部長跟副主委三年假落日跟你換好不好我想這個部分涉及到資本市場資本市場的一個"},{"start":3526.523,"end":3536.485,"text":"資本市場的一個評估我想可能還是要審慎是不是看金管會就主管機關有沒有什麼樣的看法好 那個金管會副主委"},{"start":3538.454,"end":3558.934,"text":"是,其實我還是基本上希望有一點彈性啦,就像中醫剛剛提到忘文問切嘛,我們三年前就給他定性了這些,是不是還是可以維持行政院的版本的彈性,我甚至覺得這個也是個方式,謝謝好,說沒有喔"},{"start":3564.047,"end":3573.839,"text":"請問在現場的三位委員那我就讓第二條之二跟第十六條條文我們都保留然後送院會去處理好不好"},{"start":3577.667,"end":3595.087,"text":"主席我還是希望說金管會或是說財政部還是要提出一個量化的指標出來啦對 這個其實是蠻重要的就是說當你達到什麼樣的成果就像國務委員講的說心天有高用"},{"start":3595.908,"end":3609.65,"text":"他是認為現在身體就很勇了啦他就說行政院有夠勇的那個指標在哪裡我是覺得說這個東西還是你等於是你三年之後你一定會再提一次的啦"},{"start":3610.367,"end":3614.072,"text":"主席主席主席主席"}]}},{"id":"157006","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157006","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e8715a5b109c8544d478e82b98d2b79ff26c5cdff58eca86e5d1a911ee759332f825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:45:15 - 10:50:31","影片長度":"00:05:16","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「公民投票法」公聽會(第2場)","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-18","start_time":"2024-11-18T10:45:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T10:50:31+08:00","duration":316,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":84.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.30471875,"end":88.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.47284375000001,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.65159375000002,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.55159375000002,"end":312.91034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.389,"end":29.299,"text":"謝謝主席還有在場的各位學者、專家、各位官員以及我們立法院的同事大家早我想剛剛韋智教授他講得非常的好因為其實以現在的公投法的部分歷經了多次的修訂從可以公投綁大選到公投不能綁大選其實我們就可以看得出來等一下會提出一些數據來跟大家做分享為什麼我們主張要公投綁大選那其實我們可以看到"},{"start":29.659,"end":29.899,"text":"主席"},{"start":48.615,"end":76.835,"text":"所以大家很樂意能夠出來投票因此成案也非常多有10個案子那這10個案子之中因爲民進黨的主張沒有一個通過所以民進黨被民意狠狠的打臉之後在2019年就提案修法要將公投與大選分開執行而且公投只能兩年一次還要選在暑假的期間舉行所以這樣的做法"},{"start":77.335,"end":98.86,"text":"明顯的就是要降低公民投票發起的意願還有公民返鄉投票的意願進而造成投票率降低跟代表性不足的問題那我們可以看到2018年的公投跟2021年公投單獨舉行的這個跟分開舉行的狀況2018年全國的公投投票率是55.8%"},{"start":101.521,"end":118.293,"text":"2021年是41.1%兩者差距了14.7%投票人數少於270萬我們還可以看到在比較花東跟離島這兩次公投的投票率合併選舉的公投高出17%到24.8%可見尤其對偏遠跟離島地區的居民來說公投跟大選分開"},{"start":124.998,"end":125.038,"text":"〔主席〕"},{"start":151.636,"end":170.472,"text":"其實世界各地都有公投綁大選進行的國家也有公投跟大選分開的那當時造成的這個選舉亂象監察院跟行政院都認為是州選會安排不周所致並不是合併選舉而造成的所以在2018年11月29號"},{"start":172.113,"end":176.414,"text":"當時的行政院長賴清德在行政院會聽取中選會的報告的時候他有表示未來選舉合併公投舉辦是將成為常態請中選會重新檢討整體選務的作業包括對於公投案的查驗聯署社會各項建言以及把兩種投票程序同步進行的有效分流的方式一個月內提出改進的方案所以當時中選會"},{"start":202.202,"end":219.454,"text":"提出的改革方案居然是說分開選舉那無意中就是打了我們當時的賴清德院長現在的賴清德總統一個大巴掌所以我想這個投票率是民主制度正當性的一個基石尤其我們台灣號稱AIT王國所以"},{"start":222.816,"end":233.579,"text":"投票的選務工作 剛剛吳威志教授有提到其實可以運用很多新的科技的協助也可以降低人力 也可以降低選務的負擔所以中選會應該要有更積極的作為而不是因為這樣而拿來當作這個因業廢食的這個藉口跟理由 那我想"},{"start":242.802,"end":269.802,"text":"民主社會最重要的是保障全民參與決策的一個機會那長期來看呢如果公投跟選舉分開的話會造成這個成案發起的這個連署的意願所以長期來看也會影響選民對民主制度的一個信心所以曾經有一個研究顯示平凡的選舉會導致選民出現選舉疲勞進而降低人民參與的熱情跟動力"},{"start":270.863,"end":270.883,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":285.538,"end":285.578,"text":"以上,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e8736b13da4f985d6e3117a57b012903f1cc5cdff58eca86e5d183e890e354bbf0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:14:06 - 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黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":296.984,"end":319.577,"text":"跟委員報告這個這個標準應該是可以突破這個標準可以突破這個不叫突破750萬還叫突破你今天是突破1200萬我要為你鼓掌說這是突破我們跟2019年所比較起來確實是有落差這個部分一定要再努力那我們到了上個禮拜的總人數"},{"start":322.298,"end":348.196,"text":"國際旅客來的總人數已經超過去年一整年所以今年是比去年更加成長不過這個數字跟2019年比起來世界各國都是跟疫情之前來做比較部長你不能用2024再比2023耶當然當然我要說的是說比去年進步但我們跟2019年比起來這個社會大眾是無法接受這樣的一個對比我們成長的速度還是比日台差距很大部長我們來做一個對比國際旅客的人次恢復的狀況"},{"start":350.017,"end":364.986,"text":"我們跟其他國家來比是遙遙的這個落後這個沒有錯 這個確實是落後我們要再加起來2024年1月到8月臺灣旅客的人次對比2019的這個同期日本旅客來臺灣的減少了40%韓國旅客來臺灣減少了14%那韓國旅遊局他們的有發展局有做統計"},{"start":371.724,"end":386.091,"text":"今年8月對比2019年同期旅客總人次減少2%而已日本返航的旅客平均都已經恢復到93%以上那日本觀光廳也有做統計今年1到9月對比2019年他們同期增長了10%"},{"start":391.894,"end":416.191,"text":"而且韓國訪日的旅客增加了31%人家做這樣的成績那個才有臉去說這是突破了另外我們來看聯合國的世界旅遊組織的報告2024年1月到7月國際旅客大概是7.9億人次已經達到疫情之前的水準96%"},{"start":418.396,"end":423.218,"text":"日本出入境統計2024年18月日本出國人次對比2019年同期是減少了4%那臺灣的整體國際旅客整體減少了38%保證這很嚴重另外日本的旅客來臺灣的減少了40%"},{"start":442.887,"end":455.211,"text":"這都是非常嚴重啦UN Twitter 的統計裡面其實它有很多跨國界的所以短途旅遊的部分其實是有增加那總數來講部長我們成績不好啦有些來說我們國內的旅遊品質不佳啦我們的這樣的一個價格對比國際啊"},{"start":462.853,"end":480.286,"text":"沒有顯著的競爭力那我們來看觀光署的統計一至八月我們出國的人次達到1138萬人次國家風景區的旅客人次減少了26%全國觀光旅館的租用率大概全國平均大概是59%而已"},{"start":482.008,"end":509.502,"text":"那我們看到臺灣到韓國的機票這麼便宜對比我們自己國內的旅遊品質以及我們的價格我們是毫無競爭力我們看來討論這個原因就是第一個品質不佳第二個價格對比沒有競爭力而且沒有有效的去推動我們觀光產業的轉型這很可惜這四年來一再的提醒我們"},{"start":511.035,"end":538.432,"text":"交通部、觀光局跟觀光署的這樣的一個過程裡面我們不能只是補助業者補助業者只是幫助業者還有從業人員度過難關而已你真正重要的是推動觀光的轉型你要打造特色文化區域的旅遊品牌而且要做交通的整合跟改善服務另外你也必須做到資訊多元的友善服務"},{"start":539.417,"end":549.136,"text":"我看在多年前我就有建議2020年3月我就有建議說我們必須要建立多語言的制定行程規劃的系統"},{"start":551.294,"end":570.102,"text":"那當時韓國的旅遊局跟旅遊公司的網站也沒有類似的功能那2020年3月我跟交通部提質詢的時候提當時韓國也沒有但是現在2023年韓國旅遊局他們旅遊發展局都已經有這樣的網站了"},{"start":571.396,"end":591.488,"text":"那我們官方轉型這四年都沒有具體的成績部長我們疫情期間日本他們推動這種數位的轉型資訊的整合人才的培訓還有相關的交通的整合跟品質的改善我們卻連一個網站都做不出來"},{"start":593.258,"end":611.737,"text":"報告委員這個資訊上面台灣沒有道理做得比其他國家更慢沒錯這個部分確實應該要加強我們還是數位科技大國如果韓國做得到台灣也一定做得到我所知道現在觀光署有做一部分但不夠好不夠好不夠完善不夠完整這個部分一定要加強因為時間的關係我也不好意思再拖太久時間我最後簡單的"},{"start":613.078,"end":640.388,"text":"五大面向的簡單的建議第一個要強化培訓地方自治團體的參與署長要多跟地方來對話溝通然後建立可持續性的觀光模式不是只靠補助要建立區域的旅遊品牌加強套裝旅遊的路線另外要強化人才的培訓數位整合這個是很重要交通的銜接跟資訊的透明化"},{"start":641.769,"end":658.469,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 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謝謝第8位"},{"start":2193.303,"end":2218.496,"text":"開南大學法律系兼任副教授蔣桂美蔣教授謝謝還有到來的嗎其他還沒有到那我們接著我們來介紹行政機關中選會副主委陳朝健陳副主委內政部政務次長董建宏董次長"},{"start":2222.559,"end":2236.51,"text":"司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳專門委員謝家麟、謝專委法務部法治司調部辦事檢察官楊石宇、楊檢察官"},{"start":2241.53,"end":2256.764,"text":"我們今天公聽會的程序如下我們會先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言依出席簽到順序為原則每位發言時間是8分鐘"},{"start":2258.12,"end":2274.391,"text":"本院委員要發言的請至主席台登記在兩位專家學者發言後會安排一位本院委員發言每位委員發言時間是5分鐘最後我們再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":2276.172,"end":2284.037,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘按鈴一聲發言時間結束會按鈴兩聲我們現在來請部會報告首先請中選會陳副主委朝見報告"},{"start":2299.335,"end":2328.85,"text":"早起委員各位委員各位專家學者各位女士各位先生還有機關代表大家早安總選會這邊僅就今天由內政委員會所舉辦的第二場次公投法公聽會簡略說明如後那說明的這個依序是按照提綱的一個提示來做簡要的一個說明"},{"start":2329.741,"end":2348.73,"text":"第一是現行公投法將公投與大選分開辦理是為了讓成案後的公民投票案於辦理階段可以獲得更為理性的思辨空間以及"},{"start":2350.051,"end":2378.456,"text":"有更合理的選務籌備期間更可以讓選民投票權人經由充分的理性思辨在公投與大選分開辦理的情況下投下真正的民意實際上瑞士是實施公民投票極為平反的典型國家代表國家"},{"start":2380.134,"end":2395.182,"text":"瑞士就是將公投與大選分開辦理而且每一次的公民投票案也都有它案件數的限制那不僅如此"},{"start":2396.488,"end":2422.885,"text":"立法院在上個禮拜所舉辦的第一場公投法公聽會裡頭諸多的專家學者包括我們在場的蘇紫橋蘇教授他就指出全國有91個民主國家其中60個國家就是將公投與大選分開辦理"},{"start":2425.776,"end":2449.427,"text":"第22021年曾經辦理過一場公民投票其中有一項主題就是您是否支持公投綁大選的這一件公投案當時的投票結果是不通過的在還沒有其他的公投案"},{"start":2449.966,"end":2466.176,"text":"加以否決之前,理應尊重多數的民意,以符合憲法所稱之民意政治,主權在民的決定,我們可以尊重民主。"},{"start":2467.947,"end":2490.856,"text":"第3是有關投票率的一個提升與否,理當從宣傳做起,而非藉由公投綁大選來提升投票率選務機關在現行的法律裡頭所要扮演的這個角色"},{"start":2491.883,"end":2510.051,"text":"是可以透過電視的頻道來提供時段供公投案正反雙方代表依法來表示意見或是進行辯論也編印了全國性公民投票"},{"start":2511.055,"end":2528.571,"text":"公報,編印了電子公報並且在中選會的網站建置了全國性公民投票專區來鼓勵選民進行投票"},{"start":2529.99,"end":2555.145,"text":"至於公投案正反雙方代表的一個動員以及選民或投票權人對於公投議題認同與否才是投票率能否提升的關鍵相反的主要的這個民主國家有三分之二是將公投與大選分開辦理"},{"start":2557.171,"end":2575.451,"text":"其目的就是要讓對人的投票跟對事的投票可以來分開舉行實際上民主政治也應該是以大義民主為主"},{"start":2576.311,"end":2603.58,"text":"而不是以公民投票來直接取代議會政治所以就選務機關的立場來說我們認為公投與大選分開辦理有其實意且符合國際主流那如同聯署如果我們要鼓勵"},{"start":2604.81,"end":2626.153,"text":"公民來參與公投的聯署是可以透過公投電子聯署系統來運用而不是藉由其他的方式來影響或改變選民原本爭議存在的政治傾向"},{"start":2627.374,"end":2647.54,"text":"有關公投電子連署的系統已經在今年4月的時候正式上線也歡迎公投提案的連署人或其支持者在第二階段成案之後來加以運用第四個討論提綱是"},{"start":2650.41,"end":2667.546,"text":"中選會在2019年之後就進行了許多的選務革新包括每個投開票所降低了投票全人的人數包括了增加投開票所"},{"start":2668.53,"end":2696.13,"text":"也增加了圈票遮屏還分成兩組領票推動各式各樣的一個選務革新措施在公投與大選分開辦理之後過去以來的選舉過去以來的公投確實有助於政局的一個穩定"},{"start":2697.369,"end":2719.695,"text":"以及民主的鞏固藉由公投與大選的分開辦理更可以讓全體的選民、投票權人有更為理性的思辨空間其餘則如書面報告以上簡略說明謝謝大家"},{"start":2725.606,"end":2726.087,"text":"董事長"},{"start":2742.439,"end":2756.039,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、各位在場的學者專家大家好首先本人代表本部感謝各位委員以及相關的學者專家對內政部業務推動的關注與指導"},{"start":2756.92,"end":2780.993,"text":"那麼我們今天在貴委員會召開有關公民投票法的公聽會那本部應邀列席是感同性那將今天公聽會所列討論提綱僅將本部相關意見依序說明首先針對公投法的修正是否有限制人民直接民權的實施以及有些迫切性的爭議是否難以及時反映那本部意見如下"},{"start":2781.613,"end":2810.372,"text":"事實上將公民投票與全國性選舉錯開並沒有限制或剝奪公民投票的權利那藉由公民投票舉辦的日期的固定其實讓人民反而可以預期各方對於公投議題會有更多的對話以及討論空間那人民有充分的時間去了解公投案的內容不至於因為選舉競爭而模糊了公投的議題或混淆公投的意旨而使公投的結果能夠確實符合民意那實現直接民權的價值"},{"start":2813.274,"end":2839.647,"text":"民意本身就是我們一個討論的民主社會的一個基本的重點那麼臺灣的公民意識發展成熟民意表達的管道也非常的眾多公民投票是其中的一種方式所以對於爭議的議題是不是僅僅只有公民投票事實上有很多其他的不同管道都可以反映民意我們也會徵詢股販徵詢社會不同的意見來作為政府機關施政的參考"},{"start":2840.808,"end":2858.734,"text":"那至於有關於憲法覆決的方式跟公投之間並不一致那也沒有限制的方法那是不是呈現所謂的法理不一致的部分那麼本部要表示本部報告認為憲法修正案、領土變更案的覆決"},{"start":2859.414,"end":2882.85,"text":"和全國性一般公民投票的無論在成案的過程辦理的過程或通過的門檻等等他們的規範本身就相應規範就各異而且沒有辦法在一個同樣的一個層次上因為一個為憲政議題一個為一般的人民日常事務是議題之討論那所以是否能夠互相援引為一致性的規範確實值得商榷"},{"start":2886.092,"end":2912.171,"text":"至於說在公投之後整個公民投票的參與的狀況投票率不高等等本部認為說這一些議題怎麼樣參與鼓勵公民的參與事實上在首先我們已經下修了許多的公投的門檻那麼在最近一次所公布的107年1月3號所公布的公投法的規定裡面已經將許多的連署標準都下降了"},{"start":2912.651,"end":2940.348,"text":"所以這樣子前開的這樣子的一個修正的大幅下降公投提案連署及通過的各項門檻事實上正是有利於民眾參與公投的意願以及機會也就是說我們讓人民有更多更廣泛的機會可以透過降低連署門檻的提出提出更多大家不同的意見藉由我們將時程的拉長給予大家更多的時間去討論也透過門檻的降低讓大家可以充分的去投票來表達意願"},{"start":2942.25,"end":2959.217,"text":"公民投票本身議題本身就是公民決定是否參與投票的關鍵也就是說公投議題是否為人民明確關切之議題或生命財產相關等等公民生活裡面關切之議題是公民願意是否前往投票表達的關鍵"},{"start":2961.199,"end":2963.781,"text":"公投法修法之後讓公投跟大選脫鉤"},{"start":2976.713,"end":3000.818,"text":"107年就2018年的地方公職九項九合一的選舉公投第7到第16案的同日舉行的過程裡面呢造成大家在相當程度上投票過程的混淆所以呢大院在108年的時候呢就透過修法將全國性公投跟大選分開那麼相關的選務的流程的改善還有公投綁大選所造成的一些困擾"},{"start":3001.658,"end":3014.162,"text":"那麼我們基於選務機關及公投法主管機關為中選會我們尊重中選會的相關意見那以上為本部相關的建議跟報告請各位學者專家及委員指教謝謝好 謝謝我們有關其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報我們接下來就請專家學者發言按照初期簽到的順序"},{"start":3032.591,"end":3036.869,"text":"我們第一位就請王一范教授"},{"start":3046.335,"end":3070.903,"text":"主席現場各位機關代表還有各位學者專家先進大家早安大家好我是成大政治系的助理教授王一范今天非常榮幸能夠受邀來到立法院來參加這個公民投票法的公聽會一樣不免俗的先稍微介紹一下我自己我去年從美國內部拉斯加大學奧馬拉分校拿到我公共行政的博士然後我的學士跟碩士的訓練都在台大完成"},{"start":3071.443,"end":3071.723,"text":"學術訓練公共行政"},{"start":3081.055,"end":3082.016,"text":"公聽會議：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員"},{"start":3111.435,"end":3113.617,"text":"大議制度理念大議室跟人民是一個"},{"start":3135.256,"end":3162.574,"text":"分工專業分工的一個角色也就是說呢代議是替人民來行使國家相關的事務但是人民有權來做最後最終的決定所以呢在這個制度裡面代議是原則上應該窮盡大家的努力包括行政院立法院大家透過各自的職權努力去協調協商最後真的解決不了的事情再交給人民來做最後的決定也就是說這個就像公司裡面我們聘了很多不一樣的職員"},{"start":3163.414,"end":3177.399,"text":"老闆平常就會希望各個職員各個部門各司其職把自己的工作做完但是裡面有一些自己真的沒有辦法決定的最後才交到老闆這個程度來做決定也就是說如果我們認為已經明顯投票那當然就是在"},{"start":3178.493,"end":3179.934,"text":"Bounded RATIONALITY"},{"start":3199.873,"end":3200.393,"text":"人民共產黨與組織並非完全理性"},{"start":3226.704,"end":3251.361,"text":"各位只能依照我們可得的資訊來做自己效益最大化的決定也就是說我們每一個人或每一個機關在做決定的時候我們都有一個資訊處理能力的天花板在那裡也就是說當你今天要人民去處理一大堆的公投案的時候這個時候人民未必有這個能力跟這個時間來做這件事情所以就像前面講的我們應該盡量能夠透過代議制度完成的事情就透過代議制度完成"},{"start":3251.881,"end":3278.282,"text":"真的決定不了的再交給人民來做處理這個時候人民才有可能依照他們所得的資訊來做出最正確而且最效益最大化的決定所以如果在討論說到底要怎麼樣去提升公民投票的參與率那基本上就可以依照我們公共行政學裡面一個很重要的概念叫行為公共行政學也就是我們會結合心理學跟公共行政的視角來處理這些個人層次的議題"},{"start":3278.882,"end":3279.162,"text":"立法院第3會議"},{"start":3299.128,"end":3324.188,"text":"這個政策議題到底重不重要對我來講這個議題到底跟我切身相不相關如果相關我可能就有比較高的意願去做投票那當然這也包括說人民對於這些政策議題的了解到底是不是夠充分如果夠充分他可能也有更多的意願去參加這個投票那當然也包括所謂的路徑依賴也就是說他平常都有投票那他可能就會更願意去投票那當然也有文化慣習也就是說在這個國家裡面如果大家覺得"},{"start":3324.929,"end":3353.659,"text":"投票或公民參與是一件很重要的事情他可能就有更高的意願去投這個票所以呢在意願的程式來講人民會綜合考量各種的因素來決定自己是不是想要去參加這個公民投票但是呢想要跟實際上要做那又是另外一件事也就是說呢即便他有高的意願可是呢他在這個想要投票的時候他還要考量很多的全變因素所以全變因素就是說他這個可能跟投票議題本身沒有直接相關但是他"},{"start":3354.479,"end":3380.255,"text":"外部因素像說今天可能他家裡臨時有事他不能投票或是說他想投票但他個人突然身體不方便不能來或是今天天氣太熱天氣太冷不想投票都有在台灣第4選舉都有這樣的事情所以人民會進入他的議院裡面然後在思考各種的全面因素來做出他到底要不要參與公民投票這樣的一個參與行為所以我們透過行為公共行政學的視角從因素意願到行動來做"},{"start":3381.476,"end":3406.243,"text":"到底人民為什麼想要參加或不參加公民投票的一個思考當然在這個裡面我覺得最重要的可能是在政策議題的重要性跟人民的理解程度假設他對於這個議題他覺得很重要或是他夠了解他願意出來參加投票的可能性就會變得比較大一點所以如果我們未來要想要去提升公民投票參與率其實一個很重要的點是這個投票的議題到底對人民來講重不重要那也就像我前面講的"},{"start":3406.783,"end":3407.043,"text":"公民投票參與"},{"start":3424.724,"end":3452.255,"text":"公投是否要綁大選行政層面剛剛機關代表都已經做了相當這個詳述的敘述當然在憲法層面上等一下有更多的法學專家會來做指教我就以人民的視角來講就是說其實在做投票的時候對人民來講都是一個心理跟認知的負擔也就是說其實投這些票或者是認識瞭解這些議題對大家來講都要額外去花心力然後在投的時候又會怕說我到底投的對不對做的好不好"},{"start":3452.555,"end":3480.981,"text":"其實都是一種負擔那這個一樣回到前面的有限理性論基本上會去影響人類到底有沒有辦法做出理性抉擇的重要點也就是說當你今天如果這個公投他既要投議題又要投人的時候如果各種選舉綁在一起或者是這個公投議題超過10題20題那對人民來講這個負擔就會非常的大那這個會是一個投票的負擔可能還去影響人類的理性決策那當然也必須考量到所謂的制度信任性我們在2018年的時候"},{"start":3483.341,"end":3507.508,"text":"這個地方選舉跟共投並行那我們有發生這個邊開票邊投票的情形先不論這個東西到底對誰有利對誰不利基本上當這個制度有人民產生疑慮的時候那他投出來的結果或最終的決定就有可能會被人民產生疑慮那當制度有疑慮信任度低的時候那他做出來的決定可能被信任度也低這個對於公共治理來講他的影響是非常惡劣的"},{"start":3509.028,"end":3509.328,"text":"謝謝王教授"},{"start":3535.806,"end":3536.687,"text":"林佳和教授"},{"start":3553.146,"end":3556.088,"text":"公投是重要的,它也是民主體制所必須的,所以應該盡可能讓它發揮作用,但做法可能不是讓它隨意凌駕在建立民主之上。"},{"start":3572.637,"end":3595.553,"text":"公投的特徵在於公投非黑即白公投沒有妥協折衝保護少數兼顧不同利益尋求最適方案的空間所以各國的經驗公投很重要但不能毫無節制一定要有適當的審議甚至憲法審查例如義大利憲法法院我們在2019年的修法軍運的修法很可惜沒有認真討論這一題"},{"start":3599.276,"end":3620.654,"text":"讓2018124至少有三個公投案都有非常嚴重違憲的嫌疑那麼法律層次的公投我們公投法是法律層次的公投既然叫法律層次就要受到修正法律同樣的限制例如這次國民黨提案提到說如果公投做成了四年後不可以討論各國沒有人這樣做因為你在最極端的情況等於當屆的國會議員"},{"start":3622.836,"end":3645.623,"text":"不可以因為各國的國會議員都是四年一任在最極端的情況有可能公投一做成當屆國會議員就完全不能動只能到下一屆為什麼各國都是兩年後就可以國會去修法那麼修正之前公投的決定因為它是法律層次你只能用法律層次來討論同樣道理法律也不能違憲公投也當然如此"},{"start":3646.343,"end":3664.119,"text":"所以2019年6月的修法針對2018年1月24的一些經驗我們可以看到當時公投遭大選稀釋題目太多公與社會討論的時間過短甚至有一案28天就投票投票者經常陷入混亂甚至有候選人教導口訣帶小抄還有選務人員帶頭的這種例子"},{"start":3671.065,"end":3696.042,"text":"在我的觀點全世界各國公投的負面經驗在台灣一次全部發生公投直接變成選舉綁架的工具2019的修法是必要的但很可惜2019的修正是幅度等等極為令人遺憾的2021年的那一次公投社會論辯非常激烈先不論結果是不是很多人感到滿意他至少聚焦在那一題上"},{"start":3696.923,"end":3715.933,"text":"所以台灣公投實踐的經驗可以讓我們對於這一次那麼許多政黨的提案有一個比較清楚的一個看法但公投實踐的觀察必須作為我們今天討論修法一個非常重要的基礎台灣的特徵是全國公投多地方公投極少跟世界各國都相反"},{"start":3716.713,"end":3735.99,"text":"台灣的公投議題在不同機關的審議跟論辯非常少時間又短那麼議題層次單薄給社會交鋒的機會時間都短台灣從聯署到投票幾乎是全世界最短的如果在2018 2019之前的修法甚至是不可思議的短2019的修法"},{"start":3739.152,"end":3759.044,"text":"擴大到90天 仍然在世界上 非常罕見 沒有那麼短的台灣的公投濃縮假訊息 商業宣傳的影響甚巨愛爾蘭市直接禁止公投刊登廣告在台灣2018的投票 特別是關於性平同婚上國內俗稱為3億對300萬的戰爭 差距100倍的宣傳"},{"start":3764.008,"end":3785.906,"text":"幾乎沒有違憲審查相關議題排序設計也沒有形成過度政治動員不只傷害間接民主對於整個臺灣民意的形成只有走向更分裂沒有走向更整合的結果我想公投制度的改革面向非常多那不是今天的重點所以這八點我就不說明我就特別針對這次提案的四個重點"},{"start":3788.388,"end":3817.297,"text":"第一個當然是公投要不要綁大選我想優缺點大家都非常熟悉我就不說了某程度這確實是一個選擇體它不是真正的是非題但如果從這個角度來看從公投制度出發重點在於充分審議充分資訊創造與維繫得以形成公民自由意志的最大空間公投才能發揮功能某程度我們過度把焦點集中在哪一天投票而我們前面該有的配套換言之"},{"start":3817.657,"end":3845.843,"text":"如果前面配套具備哪一天包括在大選那一天如果不是重點那我們是不是把問題看錯了我們提供錯誤的答案選項也就是說如果有了充分的審議包括以時間堆砌起來的充分審議實證上不可能有太多題目一次投票瑞士就是這樣即便過多2018年也不會重現沒有錯各國公投投票率都偏低以歐洲幾乎"},{"start":3846.523,"end":3873.881,"text":"唯一的那麼全國性公投平凡的瑞士來講瑞士的公民投票投票率平均不到34%各國確實在思考如何提升那麼公投的投票率但如果台灣的政治實踐比較偏向保守非反動操縱民粹的政治力量主導公投例如這一次很多的這個公投綁大選的這個提議居然是針對大法官剛剛宣告的死刑的問題你就可以知道"},{"start":3874.261,"end":3875.123,"text":"大法官叫做體制內講最後一句話的人"},{"start":3889.585,"end":3909.01,"text":"法律層次不應該再有空間針對憲法已經決定的議題透過憲法法庭的判決所以綁大選我想在現狀下應該明顯必大於力維持2019年6月的修法應該是比較合適的當然不是沒有折衷可能如果一種有條件的脫鉤"},{"start":3909.83,"end":3937.583,"text":"把審議跟公告各拉長在6個月以上瑞士許多的機關審議公投案長達11個月以上讓制度上產生聚焦的效果就算跟大選一起辦題目也不會多不會重蹈2018年的弊病那麼選民除了針對人的投票以外對於事他也了然於心因為經過很久的時間我想是可以考慮的但是要有配套"},{"start":3938.143,"end":3963.445,"text":"那麼在民眾黨團的提案中如果公投題目標的相同或互斥應該意志於同意選票這個是對2018、1、2、4那一個選務上一個非常嚴重的問題當然那一次的結果並沒有產生太大的困難是因為互斥的題目一個過一個沒有過所以不必產生需要討論許多國家的做法"},{"start":3965.686,"end":3978.89,"text":"民眾黨的提案出發點是正確的但是要不要用成案的時間我個人比較保留各國幾乎都用抽籤決定因為你成案涉及到動員力量如果動員力量越強先讓他成案"},{"start":3979.73,"end":4006.241,"text":"那許多各國的經驗發現許多弄不清楚的選民往往就先勾第一個所以要用抽籤不要用成案成立應該要再考慮最後重大政策的公投如果三個月內沒有為必要的處置包括行政處分跟不同層級法規沒有執行機關首長應該辭職我想這個設計是嚴重的混淆法律與政治如果你要追究的是政治責任那麼機關"},{"start":4007.793,"end":4008.894,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":4042.008,"end":4050.376,"text":"好 謝謝我們第3位我們邀請台北大學公共行政暨政策學系教授陳志華陳教授"},{"start":4058.243,"end":4079.825,"text":"大會主席各位大院的委員各位學界先進各位女士各位先生今天很榮幸能夠來參加今天的公聽會那我想剛才聽到兩位先進的報告我都覺得非常的"},{"start":4083.064,"end":4107.095,"text":"首先我想今天的聚焦恐怕還是在公投綁大選這個題目當然兩年現在規定兩年定期舉辦我的意思是他首先會碰到一個問題可能一年內那一年8月舉辦公投那11月可能有選舉或者隔年的年初又有大選"},{"start":4107.975,"end":4124.57,"text":"那這樣子一年內可能有兩次選舉剛才王教授、程達提到心理上的負擔這種是不是會擾民會增加人民的負擔我覺得是很重要的必須考量"},{"start":4125.811,"end":4125.831,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4143.903,"end":4168.326,"text":"那這樣子可能一年內會有兩次的投票是不是和人民的習慣不是很相合當然美國在制憲的時候眾議員的任期應該一年兩年三年四年辯論了很久他們最後說兩年我覺得有它的一個道理那我今天首先要提出來我覺得公投綁大選是有它的道理"},{"start":4170.071,"end":4189.099,"text":"那上一場是蘇教授在座的東吳大學他提到60個國家先進國家當然這些先進國家多半是在歐洲我覺得很巧合的是這些歐盟國家大多都是內閣制國家"},{"start":4190.62,"end":4192.721,"text":"中間來一次公投,大家不覺得怎麼樣?而且很重視那個公投英國加入歐勢,拖歐"},{"start":4213.174,"end":4234.249,"text":"都是很慎重的一個經過長期醞釀大家討論才表決其實他們就是五年才選一次那法國總統七年的任期好像以前密特朗他當了兩任十四年的總統這中間哪一個公投他也不覺得會干擾到選舉那當然會重視那種公投"},{"start":4237.915,"end":4256.001,"text":"那我覺得這種政府體制很巧合的跟公投選舉有相當密切的關聯是值得各位參考那當然德國很少聽到因為他是內閣制議會內閣制另外"},{"start":4262.159,"end":4270.964,"text":"創製"},{"start":4272.177,"end":4293.704,"text":"創制復決的創制,某種意義來講,它具有選舉的意義我昨天看到這個資料,覺得很值得我們去思考它有這種 initiative election,創制性的選舉它意思就是說,有人說創制具有某種選舉的意義,它含有選舉的意涵"},{"start":4297.978,"end":4298.498,"text":"選舉公投和並舉行也沒有衝突"},{"start":4307.065,"end":4334.655,"text":"另外我想我們的主辦單位今天副主委我老朋友曹建雄他剛才也提到充分討論可以兩者脫鉤其實我很懷疑因為現在這種兩黨對峙緊張的氣氛之下會充分討論我都不相信各位看看我們上一次的公投2022年"},{"start":4337.056,"end":4361.305,"text":"秀憲公投電視上很多的轉播我都會看今天沒看到張其路來張其路還代表民眾黨的發言在電視上發表意見但是我想請問一下收視率如何再問一下有多少人看"},{"start":4362.611,"end":4388.147,"text":"我不相信那種什麼充分討論理性思辨我都不相信 我不太相信 不太相信那至於說為什麼會要轉變呢現在的法治既然脫鉤為什麼要再走原來的路線恢復舊制其實各位知道一個制度的恢復是經過深思熟慮的不是那麼隨隨便便"},{"start":4389.688,"end":4415.243,"text":"那我的意思比如說這種轉變的原因當然有立委說這個大法官判決不符民意這個有點扯得很遠但是我覺得有道理今天我們看大法官今天我看司法院提的意見跟法務部的意見都很一致我剛剛特別看"},{"start":4416.063,"end":4440.75,"text":"兩人提供的資料都幾乎是完全如出一冊我的意思是說他們都很open很尊重各方的意見我覺得令人敬佩今天內政部的次長董事長也發表高見他認為複決可能有兩種有一種可能跟國家主權領土"},{"start":4442.469,"end":4442.649,"text":"主席"},{"start":4460.282,"end":4473.848,"text":"那跟所謂的公投是很不一樣的應該有不同的對待那是不是應該分開處理我覺得是可以思考剛才聽到內政部的意見我非常非常的佩服"},{"start":4476.043,"end":4477.223,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會"},{"start":4494.918,"end":4495.098,"text":"民意會改變"},{"start":4514.085,"end":4543.285,"text":"那立法院說退休人員的薪水不應該繼續再減少我們主辦單位人事總處我們的考試員立刻回應我覺得這是民意很重要的在後面一個推動的力量這種民意的力量我覺得就是民主珍貴的地方雖然困境多數推翻多數其實也值得我們深思謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":4548.811,"end":4549.333,"text":"陳玉龍大律師"},{"start":4563.853,"end":4586.235,"text":"各位委員各位與會貴賓大家好我是陳玉榮律師那今天很榮幸來跟大家來討論一下有關於這個草案的這個部分的意見那這個部分我相信其實各位的重點還是在於關於這個公投綁大選的部分是不是應該要這個脫鉤或是一致舉行那其實從幾個下面幾個理由來看的話"},{"start":4586.835,"end":4605.698,"text":"其實我這邊的意見是認為說我們應該還是要做脫鉤的處理首先從外國立法例來看的話其實這一次草案的部分他把公投成案之後1到6個月之內就應該要來交付公投的部分其實從瑞士的立法例來看的話"},{"start":4606.759,"end":4630.175,"text":"從聯邦議會決議到公民投票其實大概要10到16個月那如果從連署到投票來說將近要42到54個月其實這個時間是相當長有相當長的時間才有辦法做這個公民充分的事變那甚至是跟我們國家這個德國跟我們這個公民投票法比較相近的德國的這個部分的話其實從德國這個漢堡幫的這個部分來看的話他雖然他的"},{"start":4635.378,"end":4662.327,"text":"這個成案之後到公民投票至少要4個月不過這個部分他們只不過是地方層級的公投而且看一下漢堡的人口也大概只有180萬如果說180萬的人口要去討論一個事情都還要至少有4個月的部分那麼一個2300萬的人口的一個國家為什麼在1到6個月之內就可以去把這個公投成案這個其實是有問題的是有問題的"},{"start":4664.208,"end":4684.099,"text":"另外在這個德國的公投的部分其實有一個非常有趣的規定我們在一般的人都會去顧慮到說如果說這個公投跟大選一起舉行的時候投票率好像會比較高但是這個部分其實我們在立法上面可以做一些差別的對待例如說"},{"start":4684.719,"end":4699.897,"text":"如果今天公投跟這個大選脫鉤的時候也許他的得票他的通過的比例就不用這麼高我們可以做一個細緻化的分析做這個細緻化的分別不一定都是採取一樣的比例來做這個通過的這個部分"},{"start":4700.498,"end":4717.426,"text":"那再來啊從這個我們一樣在這個東南亞的國家其實印尼我相信各位這個各會與會的貴賓一定都知道印尼啊曾經在2019年4月選舉的時候竟然有因為他們這個大選就是在同時舉行竟然有270個選務人員過勞死然後有1800個選務人員竟然生病就在大選舉行過後"},{"start":4724.109,"end":4752.224,"text":"再來2024年2月之後這次選舉有沒有比較好有比較好但還是有71個人選務人員過勞時有超過4000位選務人員有生病他們採取的方式其實跟台灣一樣都是用人工點票所以這個部分在印尼當地的輿論他們就覺得說其實不要把所有的選舉都綁在同一天不要把所有的選舉都綁在同一天這個東西對選務人員來說其實是有一些"},{"start":4753.224,"end":4782.273,"text":"幫助也會提高這個選舉的正當性的部分那其實從上一次這個一直被詬病的這個201這個上一次這個公投綁大選的這一次來看的話後來啊臺灣高人法院其實對這個部分所謂的邊投票邊開票的釋法性其實有表示說這個是合法不過他們在判決理由裡面也就是在108年度選上至第6號的判決裡面他們其實有提到"},{"start":4783.193,"end":4798.159,"text":"這個部分其實是因為中選會那個時候他沒有去做一些預先準備還有在台北市的選舉委員會也沒有按照工作協調會議去設置投票所導致怎麼樣有一些投票所超過1500個人甚至1800個選民但是啊"},{"start":4801.42,"end":4825.419,"text":"中選會對這件事情他其實也有話要說他說這個部分因為縮短一到六個月就要舉辦公投所以怎麼樣這個預算的撥款根本來不及簡單來說縱使今天上一次使用了這個行政院第二第二項的這個預備金第二預備金的部分但是這個部分也要等到公投案成立之後主計處才能撥款"},{"start":4825.959,"end":4840.656,"text":"所以他的作業時間其實相當的短這個部分其實會有礙這個公投這個程序的正當性的部分事實上因為我有許多朋友是在公務人員也有親友是公務人員他們現在對於這種公投綁大選那一天"},{"start":4841.036,"end":4868.12,"text":"是否要再去從事選務人員其實非常有顧慮那這個部分據我所知後來中選會這邊也是跟人事總書這邊一直去協調把這個補修、獎金都提得非常高才會慢慢有人去願意所以這個部分我們要去實行一個公投的這個好的正當的程序的目的的時候我們還是不得不去考量一些適當的行政手段的部分那再來的部分其實剛剛各位幾位前面的先進都有提到"},{"start":4869.4,"end":4884.626,"text":"媒體跟公民的這個程序都不足那我這邊其實只是想補充一點如果說今天公投綁大選的話在兩黨激烈的政黨政治的競爭裡面其實它會讓許多候選人"},{"start":4885.586,"end":4885.906,"text":"公投綁大選："},{"start":4904.235,"end":4904.675,"text":"〈公民投票法〉"},{"start":4926.283,"end":4926.543,"text":"責任政治責任政治"},{"start":4943.248,"end":4943.288,"text":"〔記者發言〕"},{"start":4966.328,"end":4974.02,"text":"這個其實在法律上會有問題而且可能會有違憲甚至是會破壞了獨立機關原本設置的目的這是非常不妥的"},{"start":4978.857,"end":5005.785,"text":"那最後還有像這個公投延長原本從2年拘束到4年的部分這部分剛剛其實林教授也有提過就是說這個部分除了會拘束各位委員的意見之外其實另外還會有一種矛盾的情形產生如果說今天有一個議題有一個政治人物他是反對某一個重大政策但是這個重大政策後來經過公投通過之後"},{"start":5006.645,"end":5028.853,"text":"過了不久這個政治人物選上了總統或是擔任什麼機關首長的時候他的政見其中之一就是我就是反對這個重大政策那麼請問一下四年的拘束時間到底是後面的民意林佳鑫的民意還是應該要尊重公投法的部分的意見這個部分其實也會產生許多法律上的不確定性所以坦白說"},{"start":5030.833,"end":5041.016,"text":"這幾個提案看起來其實不是那麼的妥適也不是那麼的適宜所以這部分是本人一些粗淺的意見那再請各位與會先進 敬請指教 謝謝謝謝陳大律師接下來我們請傅新儀大律師"},{"start":5059.172,"end":5060.713,"text":"主席委員還有各位與會的先進大家好然後因為今天時間有限呢請容許我就是讓我結合一下法律還有我個人喜愛的那個歷史說書故事來讓我來用這8分鐘來做一下我今天針對這個議題的一個簡短的一個報告好"},{"start":5088.517,"end":5113.064,"text":"我今天還是專注在提綱的這四個大主題上面所以這四個大主題的諸置我就不再逐一略述了然後在我的一開始的時候我想要先用一句美國第三任總統Thomas Jefferson的名言他曾經有講到一個政府最重要而且是它唯一的功能就是它必須要盡善地盡職在人民的福利以及幸福上面"},{"start":5115.285,"end":5124.849,"text":"人民的福利就是要彰顯人民的主權這個應該是所有的人民的期待也應該是政府以及我們議會裡面的一個最大的一個宗旨那接下來呢那就針對我的第一個主題然後我想要跟大家做一個簡單的報告因為我在日前搶不到周杰倫的票所以"},{"start":5136.765,"end":5141.79,"text":"民主制度 雅典的民主制度來跟大家來做一個簡單報告我回顧一下我們的人類歷史應該最早的民主制度是在雅典的索人時代"},{"start":5156.405,"end":5174.056,"text":"就是如果我從網路上的一些歷史資料查他從西元前不是西元後西元前的594年他就進行了重大的400人會議的改革然後這400人會議的改革我們就可以把它想成一個小的一個公民的意識的集結體這個在2500年前這是一個非常偉大的創舉那這個人是誰呢"},{"start":5180.72,"end":5180.82,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5197.023,"end":5207.726,"text":"代表道德的最高的一個領袖第二個叫摩西宗教的就是帶領出埃及的這個宗教最高的先知第三個在最右邊那個就是我這一次要講的索倫這一位索倫呢他本身因為他帶領的希臘雅典城邦的執法改革所以這三位成為最高文明的代表所以我就把索倫的頭像來給大家再看清楚一下就是他"},{"start":5222.669,"end":5233.1,"text":"雖然說只是一個雕像而已但是我想他長得氣餘非凡果然就能夠帶領到我們這次的政策改革所以我也期許我們的議會以及我們的行政官員也能夠帶領我們台灣做一個最佳制度的一個選擇"},{"start":5236.451,"end":5260.761,"text":"那接下來呢我就要講一下這個為什麼我要從民主制度起源開始講起因為我覺得我們在看一件事情我們不能夠只是單純的講講法律講講這個法律的要件然後講講我們的亂象當然這很重要我不可置喙但是我覺得我們還是要去看它事物的本質我們要去看到底民主在我們的國家要怎麼樣的彰顯它從歷史的嚴格裡面對我們的人類的意義它有什麼樣的一個啟發所以呢為什麼索倫他要做"},{"start":5265.37,"end":5271.816,"text":"民主改革因為3000年前的雅典貧富不均我們像貴族借錢還不出錢來的話土地就要那個那個那個送給貴族他就變成了農奴欸其實好像跟我們現在一樣當你貸款還不出來你的房子就會被銀行抵押好像我們這個在人類的歷史3000年後也沒任何改變"},{"start":5283.246,"end":5303.45,"text":"後來底層反抗了然後雅典政府就覺得說不知道該怎麼辦好痛苦啊就沒有人可以解決這問題因為底層人民那麼多大家要反抗後來他們就舉出一個索人就說請你來解決它他就說好我就把所有的負債全部都delete掉我就把所有的負債取消當然太棒了今天如果各位身上所有的貸款都能夠一次當作父親你沒有負但是可以一次當父親這個人民當然很高興但是呢"},{"start":5309.195,"end":5309.335,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":5326.492,"end":5346.249,"text":"基本的民主制度基礎那為什麼我會說最基本的民主政治基礎呢原因是因為直接民主其實是在他的後期就是我們說在他的年代未盡之夜在他的下一代他就成就了所以有一個也很有名的叫克里斯提尼他開了500人會議欸多了100人好像多了一些民意進來好就是我們姑且不論400人跟500人之間的差異反正anyway"},{"start":5348.431,"end":5364.97,"text":"亞典式的直接民主已經成型了到達民主最高峰那這個直接民主呢很厲害的是在2500年前就已經有提案公投跟表決法律就是我們今天要討論的一個很重大的議題我很害怕我找的中文資料有點額悟所以我看了英文跟日文的文獻那因為在此並不是語言課程就請讓我就此略過"},{"start":5368.594,"end":5373.517,"text":"公民投票跟直接民主的關聯公民投票當然就是我剛剛跟各位報告的就是因為這個就是我們人民的事項所以人民的事項必須要有我們人民要有參與的權利就是要讓人民有決策權這個我想應該是大家都是可以承認的一個概念第二個就是我們要促進政策透明跟公正來強化政府責任"},{"start":5389.466,"end":5401.24,"text":"但是呢並不是所有的議題都可以進覆公投喔我在這邊其實我想要focus回來我們這次想要講的重點就是第一個今天如果是少數族群或是人權保障議題就是我們剛剛很多教授有講到的性平問題這個並不是來讓公投來做決定的一個好議題"},{"start":5406.789,"end":5411.433,"text":"因為這個是人權問題第二個高度專業跟技術性問題我再舉個例子就是我們剛有討論到像廢死議題死刑存廢是放在刑法裡面它本身就是有不同的道德取捨如果說我們把死刑的問題來附諸公投的話說實在話在我們台灣的現今社會只會加強我們的社會衝突跟紛爭"},{"start":5427.026,"end":5449.454,"text":"法律的問題、人權的問題只是本來就是應該要交由法律的判斷來做最後的定言所以我想尊重司法應該都是我們身為台灣公民一個應盡的義務然後第三個就是有關於國家法跟外交政策這個也不應該要近乎溝通因為這個是政府的責任政府自己要做好外交政策這本來就不是來讓人們做決定那當然最重要的就是憲法基本權保障"},{"start":5450.234,"end":5465.219,"text":"那接下來我們來看就是兩年一次的這樣的規定有沒有侵害到職捐民權我在這邊必須要跟大家報告因為我們是法律三位階的理論嘛這個大家都知道憲法法律命令法律不可以跟憲法相焊隔不可以向他不可以跟憲法抵觸"},{"start":5465.879,"end":5472.283,"text":"但是事實上憲法是國家的根本大法它是最重要的基本法它不可能具體名義我打個比方憲法第19要告訴我們說人民有納稅的權利但是你2個月是要繳營業稅每年5月要申報所得稅這個憲法沒有告訴我們為什麼因為太細了"},{"start":5482.128,"end":5499.862,"text":"所以細節性程序性的事項交付給法律行使其實這個其實是沒有問題的那稍後我也會跟大家報告一下就是有關於一些外國立法律的一些經驗就像剛剛很多先進有講到像瑞士他們也都是固定時間的來舉辦公投我想這個在法律制度上應該是沒有什麼很大的一個疑慮"},{"start":5500.562,"end":5522.776,"text":"那如何強化公民參與呢?最主要還是教育、資訊充分還有就是這個議題不可以造成對立那在這邊話雖然說我非常敬重我們的那個智華教授無愛無事無更愛真理但是事實上剛剛智華教授說對於人民理性思辨他是保持存疑但是我還是相信人性本善我相信我們台灣人民的智慧我們應該要給台灣人民更多的理性思辨的這樣的一個機會"},{"start":5523.516,"end":5523.996,"text":"最後的10秒時間請讓我來給大家最後一個我的簡單結論就是"},{"start":5546.749,"end":5548.95,"text":"請容許再給我20秒時間,我想要呼應一下剛剛的一個議題就是為什麼我要先講一下那個希臘雅典的這個故事的原因是因為其實希臘雅典這500人會議它有瑕疵嗎?絕對有"},{"start":5569.281,"end":5582.366,"text":"他的公民投票權只有在成年男性女性奴隸外國居住者就合法外國居住者是沒有投票權的甚至還有投票流放制度就是公民投票讓這個人來流放不可以在雅典境內生存這個在我們現在的民主來看完全的都是違反性別平等違反我們的人性尊嚴"},{"start":5589.748,"end":5589.788,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":5617.824,"end":5623.908,"text":"謝謝副大律師我們接下來請東吳大學政治系蘇子喬蘇教授主席在座各位與會的來賓還有機關代表各位長官大家好很榮幸有這個機會在這個場合跟各位"},{"start":5642.851,"end":5667.979,"text":"報告一下關於對公民投票法修法的一些看法我還是把焦點放在公投綁大選這個議題上我自己的一個思考是認為說公投是我要跟大選合併舉辦它跟公投的通過門檻這件事情是應該要進行配套思考的"},{"start":5669.419,"end":5695.748,"text":"那我們目前的公投法的這個門檻其實已經在過去修法這個降低的情況之下我會認為就是說公投跟大選是否合併舉辦我覺得是值得斟酌的因為我們目前的這個公民投票法的這個修法目前的門檻是同意票多於不同意票而且同意票要達到這個若以全國新公投來講的話是達到全國的選舉人總數的四分之一也就是25%這個是通過的門檻"},{"start":5699.91,"end":5727.306,"text":"我們可以這樣推論其實這是一個簡單的數學問題就是說在這樣的公投的門檻之下我們可以想像可以推論就是說在一個公投當中如果同意票多於不同意票然後在投票率超過50%的情況之下就代表說同意跟不同意票加起來是50%的投票率情況之下那同意票就必然一定會超過25%"},{"start":5729.583,"end":5753.845,"text":"那所以我們可以想像就是說意思就是說我們可以想像就是就是在公投跟大選合併舉辦的情況之下因為投票率基本上應該是會超過50%的因為我們過去歷年來的各種選舉的投票率除了是極少數的那種基層選舉的例外都應該有50%的投票率甚至會更高70%、60%、70%甚至在中央大選有80%以上的投票率那在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":5755.146,"end":5778.538,"text":"事實上這個決定公投是否能夠通過的關鍵那就會變成只是同意票跟不同意票的兩者多寡了那意思也就是說那個我們在當時公投法裡面設了25%的那個門檻的那個制度的用意其實就是被掏空了就形同劇文了我是做這樣一個推論就是說所以我覺得就是說剛剛談的這是第一個重點我要強調就是說"},{"start":5782.22,"end":5797.175,"text":"公投跟大選是不是要合併舉辦跟公投通過門檻這個是應該要做一個配套思考這是第一點第二點我要強調就是說公投的目的事實上應該是盡可能要精確的去反映人民的民眾的意志"},{"start":5801.539,"end":5815.355,"text":"那在這樣的公投目的之下那我覺得去思考就是說如果公投綁大選我想其實這個已經是老生常談了就是說在公投跟大選合併舉辦的情況之下其實我們確實會有一個疑慮就是說公投確實蠻有可能會變成是選舉過程當中政黨"},{"start":5818.539,"end":5845.54,"text":"或是政治人物動員選民的工具或是拉抬選情的一種工具公投的議題也因此會淹沒在選戰的煙消當中會模糊了公投議題的焦點我覺得這樣的一個現象其實跟我們強調公投的目的是要盡可能精確的反映人民的意志這樣的一個目的其實是有所衝突的這是我要提的第二個重點"},{"start":5847.949,"end":5869.088,"text":"第3個我提出一個資料我上次有提一個資料是關於全球性全世界公投的我上次有提一個全世界公投綁大選其實並不是一個全球主流的制度設計我這邊再提一個資料這個資料可能是比較微觀的一個資料其實前面的陳律師也有提到我還是可以呼應一下就是我跟"},{"start":5870.329,"end":5879.095,"text":"本校東吳大學學友方教授有做一個關於瑞士跟德國的但德國是地方公投幫了公投的一個研究那個"},{"start":5880.629,"end":5884.09,"text":"提在瑞士的公投案瑞士的全國性公投案我特別去觀察過去10年當中從開始連署發動到最後付出公投的時間"},{"start":5901.803,"end":5924.852,"text":"整體來講大概是50個月左右時間40幾個月到50個月時間基本上就是將近4年另外德國的那個幫的公投我這邊焦點放在漢堡幫的公投他的過去近年來他的一個公投從發動一開始成案發動到最後付諸公投時間大概是20個月到30個月時間也就是說基本上也是要兩年多左右時間"},{"start":5925.672,"end":5951.723,"text":"那我覺得這個歷史是要強調就是說我們在台灣目前的公投設計是每兩年定期舉辦公投大概是20個、24個月的時間其實跟剛剛講這兩個國家的歷史其實是蠻相應的啦那我這邊要提的就是說因為是跟德國會有這樣的設計其實它主要的一個用意是要促成這個時間會拉得比較長其實是想要促成公民能夠在過程當中進行比較有充分的時間去進行審議跟事變這裡當然我想一定會有一個疑慮就是說"},{"start":5956.465,"end":5979.666,"text":"我要呈一個疑慮就是公投的期程拉長並不一定能夠確保公民一定會審議事變可是公投的期程如果太短就必然不可能促成公民審議事變所以我覺得目前這樣的一個公投時間的兩年兩年作為一個公投日我覺得目前這個設計其實並不是一個違反國際主流國際潮流的一個設計"},{"start":5983.76,"end":5989.785,"text":"另外在提綱上有提到一點就是說要如何促進公投的參與度我覺得關鍵不是要讓公投跟大選合併舉辦而是一個我們過去也談了很長的一個制度就是"},{"start":5998.922,"end":6013.761,"text":"不再提投票趕快實施不再提投票實施之下公民參與的程度應該是可以進步提高的我覺得不再提投票的制度設計如果在國內有些疑慮的話事實上移轉投票的制度設計"},{"start":6014.682,"end":6029.622,"text":"或甚至就是說在不在意投票容許說民眾也可以在一定的範圍之下去進行提前投票我覺得投票的率也是因此才可以增加的我覺得關鍵不只是在於公投跟大選合併舉辦"},{"start":6031.856,"end":6049.123,"text":"這是第5點我提出一個最後的結論就是說提執政黨從2017年因為當時在立法院佔多數的情況之下他當時降低了公投門檻然後到2018年的公投跟地方的九合一選舉因為當時有10項公投案造成這個選舉的亂象"},{"start":6052.564,"end":6068.804,"text":"然後到2019年又修法把公投的跟選舉脫鉤這整個政治的歷程確實充滿了政治算計而且也確實有很多值得檢討跟非議的地方不過我覺得目前這個制度這樣子亂打"},{"start":6070.82,"end":6091.919,"text":"亂打亂撞下來這樣的一個公投目前形成的一個制度就當下制度來看如果我們不要去就是說一碼歸一碼啦就是說過去的這樣的現象其實是不好的我覺得很多政治算益在裡面可是就當下這個制度我覺得目前如果就公投跟大選分開舉行我覺得這個是有它的可行性還是有它的一個合一性啦"},{"start":6092.62,"end":6121.448,"text":"因為現在的做法基本上就是我們基本上就是每一年會有一次投票機會嘛舉例2024年選總統2025年會有八月可能會是如果有提案的話有一次公投那2026年會有地方的選舉那2028年那2027年會有一個地方又有一個公投那2028年又是總統選舉所以每四年會每一年都有一次投票機會所以我覺得目前這樣公投制度是可以那個可以還是可以一個在目前的制度是要是有它的合一性的好就交各位謝謝"},{"start":6125.611,"end":6145.661,"text":"好 謝謝蘇教授那我們接下來請台北海洋科大通識教育中心的助理教授吳瑟志吳教授我們在吳教授發言完之後我們休息5分鐘讓大家使用洗手間請吳教授好 謝謝主席好各位學者專家大家好我是吳瑟志"},{"start":6146.363,"end":6171.331,"text":"那很有榮幸來到這個地方來分享我的觀點雖然我不是這個公法類的專家那當然今天在前往到這個貴院的時候大院的時候其實我腦子裡都還在想著昨天我們十二強終於進入副賽要到東京了那我一直在想說修法的迫切性那如果今天公投的題目是說"},{"start":6172.191,"end":6172.211,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6189.666,"end":6215.22,"text":"對於這一次的公投的一個修訂案當然有三案我是逐一的來去檢視它的邏輯性就是說到底這樣的公投的修法的理由或者是它的一個這個修法的內容方向到底能不能說服我或者是能不能有這個修法的必要性例如說我們剛才其實很多的專家學者前輩們提到了這個綁大選的議題那到底"},{"start":6217.492,"end":6221.381,"text":"目前的固定投票跟綁大選哪一個最能解決選務的亂象?"},{"start":6223.201,"end":6248.739,"text":"再來是我們一直在提到要提高投票率提高公民投票的投票率那到底提高公民投票率剛才有學者提到公共議題的討論度到底哪一個才是我們在針對公民投票需要關注的重點再來是修法的迫切性到底現在我們進行這三案的修法有沒有它的迫切性以及說這個修法的民意基礎是什麼"},{"start":6249.539,"end":6275.343,"text":"其實我們從這個中選會的那個報告裡面回憶裡面也提到了這個我們在之前已經有一個公投決定了拍板決定了公投綁大選的這樣的一個民意的一個基礎再來是憲法覆決跟公投的條件意義當然是不同的我們在提這個說到這個問題當中有提到這個這個根本所謂的直接民權的關係完全是沒有任何的"},{"start":6275.763,"end":6277.624,"text":"每一案的邏輯性問題第一個"},{"start":6301.246,"end":6318.342,"text":"民眾黨所提出的這個多案一張的這樣的一個修法的一個內容就是多個公投案都在一張選票裡面呈現我覺得它會有兩個很大的問題必須解決在修法的一個理由裡面卻沒有告訴我們第一個選民投票行為的改變"},{"start":6319.892,"end":6343.045,"text":"當然我們很多的選民有所謂的在所謂的多人一張多人就是一張選票裡面很多人來進行選擇但是從來沒有過一張選票裡面進行多案的選擇那個選民的一個投票行為的改變這對於選民他自己表露他的所謂直接民權以及在於對於他在進行投票行為是不是會出現錯誤"},{"start":6344.502,"end":6353.571,"text":"我覺得這個我們在修法當中都沒有顧慮到雖然我們引用了國際的 修法裡有引用的國際上的案例再來選務工作"},{"start":6355.488,"end":6380.932,"text":"選務工作他在這個過程當中在針對一張選票中出現可能有所謂的贊成不贊成甚至所謂的沒有蓋章的這樣的一個公投案當然可以透過選務工作當中仔細的來進行相關的開票檢查但是問題在這裡喔如果假設出現錯誤或是出現任何的矛盾他所引起的社會的一個質疑"},{"start":6382.401,"end":6410.735,"text":"當然這個就會出現我的意思就是說如果在這樣的方式之下要加上我們也從這個相關的報告裡面提及到這個我們也沒有採取所謂的電子計票這樣的一個模式沒有這些相關配套之下在進行多案一選票的修法它第一個會增加選民在投票上的一個困難尤其我們看到從過去這四個案子當中呈現什麼其實我們在進行公投投票裡面當然很多選舉也是有類似這樣的傾向"},{"start":6412.52,"end":6438.701,"text":"高年齡的投票率其實是比較高的那它會造成你在選票當中行為的改變的困難或是閱讀選票的障礙那因此如果說多按並一票它的目的是要讓選務能夠順暢我必須說如果相較於現在一按一張票的一個方式它並沒有辦法去證明這樣的方式是可以讓解決選務的困擾或是它其實更造成更多選務的問題"},{"start":6440.282,"end":6455.118,"text":"那再來是第二案在針對所謂的權責機關執行期限的修法問題第一個我必須問三個月合理嗎如果三個月合理的話我覺得基本上我們就會看到的是什麼許多的相關部門他在"},{"start":6456.058,"end":6473.892,"text":"針對公投的結果在進行相關細則的訂定上可能會出現掛一漏萬羞羞補補的相關問題出來法律問題出來他可能會造成我們法體系的混亂再來是三個月必須要提出處理辦法否則必須要這個有這個所謂的"},{"start":6474.512,"end":6495.424,"text":"首長必須要支持下台我必須說用時間來規範並不等於責任政治的必然性再來是那如果假設行政機關他在公投投票為了要提出相關的一個細則出來他在公投投票前就預先的擬定處置方式我覺得這也跟民意政治上有所出入那我們可以從"},{"start":6497.032,"end":6507.769,"text":"過去當中比如說行政程序法第51條行政機關在反映相關期限內兩個月必須作出反映但是他可可以延長一次延長兩個月或是我們從訴願法第84條"},{"start":6510.529,"end":6535.567,"text":"在相關的回應當中期限是三個月但是你可以得延長一次也是兩個月我意思是說我們在這次修法當中並沒有這樣的配套措施那更何況公投跟行政處分的訴願決定的情形都不同他所涉及到相關需要進行的行政裁量或者是專業領域的意見公投案會更加複雜"},{"start":6536.588,"end":6565.293,"text":"所以如果只有3個月就要求行政所長必須要下台沒有完成必須辭職下台我覺得恐怕導致最後是公投案原本是對勢的討論最後混淆變成對人的爭議所以如果說這樣子的一個理由修法理由他再回到所謂的民意政治或是責任政治的角度來看的話我認為現在的所謂的固定投票的方式以及目前我們所執行的方式其實基本上已經可以"},{"start":6566.273,"end":6575.179,"text":"已經可以達到所謂的民意政治的基礎無需要再進行相關的支持下台規範第三個就是公投綁大選的問題公投綁大選在規範上"},{"start":6580.965,"end":6605.823,"text":"當然很多人都很清楚這是對勢公投是對勢大選是對人的選舉這兩者之間其實有一定程度的衝突跟矛盾其實那修法規定要必須要這次修法提案裡面規定提到1到6個月要進行投票這是不是符合這個部分是不是對於公投的意義來講我某個程度上認為他是有一定程度的矛盾我們說公投的目的是希望公民"},{"start":6606.363,"end":6622.508,"text":"在針對公共議題當中有充分的討論但是一到兩個月就必須去討論在哪裡再來是如果說今天公投保納選一旦成就之後我覺得基本上它對於提升投票率這件事情"},{"start":6622.888,"end":6640.005,"text":"他只是技巧性的來進行投票意願的提升並沒辦法有助於公民在意志上或直接民權上的實踐那最後我認為在相關法令的規範上如果沒有充足的理由相關的提出來我覺得應該要更多的研究跟調查"},{"start":6640.626,"end":6661.114,"text":"包括這個公投跟大選之間的關係以不同案之間的相互影響這些分析都必須要出來再進行所謂的修法理由的補充否則目前我認為在相關的這三案的修法當中我認為都是還不適宜而且沒有它的妥協性以上是我的報告 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝吳教授那我們現在休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7042.867,"end":7054.171,"text":"那我們現在繼續開會那接下來是請開南大學法律系兼任副教授蔣貴美蔣副教授好那個主席在場各位先進這個大家好我想時間有限我們就很快的切入主題"},{"start":7072.278,"end":7073.62,"text":"第一場我大概也全程看過"},{"start":7087.575,"end":7087.695,"text":"〔主席〕"},{"start":7109.019,"end":7132.66,"text":"主權在民這是發展了幾百年形成的一個代議制度所以不管怎麼樣我們還是要回到代議制度的本質實際上洛克的觀點我想我們在座都非常清楚他甚至有這個Revolution 革命說等等也就是說這個權利當你不可控的時候你本來就是可以收回來的"},{"start":7133.58,"end":7149.405,"text":"所以我想這是一個第一個非常清楚的定位那第二個問題我覺得呢民意本身它是有幾個特色民意的potention它是有前隱性的我們過去在這個國民黨長期執政的時候我們的在那個民國勘亂時期如果你去做民調你根本看不到台獨的聲音比例非常非常低"},{"start":7159.088,"end":7159.228,"text":"民意的潛影性"},{"start":7174.967,"end":7189.938,"text":"所以我們把公投過度減花我是覺得沒有必要也違反了我們的原理原則所以我們在第一個議題裡面當然要非常清楚的去考慮到我們為什麼要去限縮它的時間它已經不容易表現了結果你還要在特定時間、特定時段兩年一次還要在固定的哪個月"},{"start":7202.328,"end":7224.634,"text":"這個有必要嗎所以這個違反了我們基本的一個原理上尊重民意主權在民的一個原理原則那當然我們也必須了解剛才在前面很多先進提到所謂的這個好像是林佳和教授他有提到這個公投是yes no 我不認為"},{"start":7226.007,"end":7232.111,"text":"你看我們的條文我們的公投法裡面有法案的創覆還有重大政策重大政策不是每個國家做法都一樣我們過去15項公投當時會搞得這麼紛亂大部分都是重大政策"},{"start":7244.471,"end":7270.001,"text":"所以當它通過了七成以上都通過可是你沒有辦法執行什麼東西因為它具體性不夠那所以很多國家在重大政策它是有規定它的技術上的運作跟它的可行性我們沒有所以我們一直把它怪在這個邊投邊開等等等技術的問題所以我們一定要限縮我覺得這叫本末倒置忽略了我們大腦的聰明性這樣是不對的"},{"start":7273.602,"end":7273.842,"text":"憲法復決權18歲公民權"},{"start":7296.491,"end":7308.264,"text":"憲法我覺得門檻非常高它甚至會超過我們過去所有總統的最高當選票數它很難那憲法本來就很難那所以呢我們當然要去思考一個問題"},{"start":7309.932,"end":7336.812,"text":"假設它不是憲法,它是法律那法律能夠違背憲法嗎?我們憲法裡面有哪一條告訴你說你可以自意限縮也許我用自意這個名詞是不大禮貌但是當我們要限縮的時候我們一定要師出有名一定要有具體的理由而且要符合明確化的原則否則不能隨意限縮"},{"start":7337.853,"end":7337.873,"text":"為了⋯"},{"start":7363.368,"end":7363.388,"text":"第3個問題"},{"start":7390.134,"end":7395.859,"text":"我們提到第三個問題說我們到底有哪些管道 三管道太多了當我們認識基本權的重要性的時候"},{"start":7409.012,"end":7421.125,"text":"人民主權是奮鬥了幾百年過來的它是非常可貴的但一陣子它只是一個運作模式我們為了模式而消除勢力去刻意的限縮基本權"},{"start":7422.489,"end":7444.1,"text":"事實上你技術上有很多地方可以改善我們在過去長長的一個官方的公報我憑安心說在我家桌上放了好久沒有人會看了因為太長了官方寫的東西一大堆你與其逼其公於一役只有那一天公報上投票前看一看那你平常為什麼不可以做一些雙向溝通的所謂的電子平台"},{"start":7447.842,"end":7448.022,"text":"主席"},{"start":7466.809,"end":7467.049,"text":"民意有潛意識"},{"start":7483.44,"end":7509.75,"text":"事實上民意不只有前隱性它還有強弱度事實上民意的強弱度我們在過去的公投裡面看得出來我們有最早的所謂的跟美國的軍購案然後後來的一大堆什麼入聯反聯在中央幾乎都是意識形態為主的一些重大案當然我們後來也出現了藻礁等等這些非常重要的案所以你就知道我們的人民是熱情的他們很想參與我們要盡量給他們空間"},{"start":7512.651,"end":7538.454,"text":"最後一個問題這個因為我看剩29秒那所以呢請大家參閱當時我在監察院108內政字0041號的調查報告那是針對邊開邊投的調查報告李立寫了非常非常多的缺失那這些缺失呢我非常遺憾後來隔年"},{"start":7539.415,"end":7540.476,"text":"吳威智教授"},{"start":7567.751,"end":7583.71,"text":"主席在場的徐宇貞 立委以及各位先進大家好我是雲林科技大學的教授吳維智我針對提案一的部分也就是說公民投票限制兩年當中在特定時間辦理是不是有違背直接主決"},{"start":7584.571,"end":7584.771,"text":"主席"},{"start":7607.568,"end":7634.743,"text":"公投法的第1條裡面規定依據憲法主權佔領的原則主權佔領就民主其實就是主權佔領主權佔領在世界各國裡面只有兩個主要的學說一個就是國民主權說一個就是國會主權說可是現在我們的國家哪個時候變成了司法主權說了變成了行政主權說了好像司法跟行政都變成了在它的上面這是不對的"},{"start":7635.623,"end":7658.473,"text":"所以基本上我也非常的認同在大法官342號的解釋裡面認為既議事之律者立法院其實是有權決定這些技術性的立法問題我個人認為公投法的很多都是技術性的立法問題所以因此無論在台灣各地市的公投有沒有的投票"},{"start":7659.153,"end":7685.278,"text":"包含了公投有沒有合併或者要分開其實每一個時代有每一個時代的需要這個時代的需要就是針對國會因為它的一個需要而來做改變那基於對公投案是對市有政策的參考價值其實它等同是民意調查這個民意調查技術上可以採很多的技術包含了電子投票那這等一下我再做報告"},{"start":7686.158,"end":7713.324,"text":"另外公投其實要不要這個兩年這個部分實在是太久了為什麼因為公投的規定裡面各位看從發起連署審查公告往往都要6個月以上時間其實已經是夠久了那夠久了之後你再把時間再拖久了事實上無法來反映當時候重大的政策它如果有急迫性的也沒有辦法來反映民意"},{"start":7714.304,"end":7729.222,"text":"因此這個部分我認為是必須要改變的在提綱第2的部分也仍然是在說明說兩年辦理一次會不會再跟大選當中的一個結合各位我們看到了"},{"start":7731.063,"end":7754.358,"text":"憲法徵修條文第1條提出的憲法修憲案裡面而且它只有說公告半年然後經過3個月的投票覆決事實上它只有公告的時間沒有限制任何提出的一個時間那當然對人選舉因為他有任期所以他可以有這樣的一個限制可是對事呢"},{"start":7754.918,"end":7756.56,"text":"第3個部分有沒有具體可行的方式來處理我們看到了"},{"start":7772.496,"end":7797.648,"text":"剛才所說的諮詢性公投就像民意的調查一樣它可以做電子投票世界上已經有超過30個國家實施了其中有一種我覺得是非常好的一種就是目前的直接記錄電子投票機DRE的一個技術這個技術可以在投票機上投票而且記錄在機器上的記憶體裡面除了這個之外"},{"start":7798.568,"end":7814.176,"text":"選民可以有列印出來像金融交易記錄的一個收據這個部分除了各自的記錄演示以外其他在時間跟統計裡面都可以看得到比如說它可以避免很多作弊的機會"},{"start":7815.376,"end":7844.326,"text":"那麼接下來第4個提案裡面我們說要合併大選可不可以我必須說當時候2018年一案一章造成了大排長龍邊開票邊投票這個部分實際上是選務工作並沒有掌握流程事前也沒有演練的足夠而且開票的票櫃也幾乎同一個場所所以剛才有一位大律師說不要把選票綁在同一天"},{"start":7845.246,"end":7865.946,"text":"實際上我們是不是應該考慮不要把開票擋在同一天呢因為很多技術性的問題是可以來解決的公投的開票其實沒有人的一個擊破那這個部分可以再多一天 多兩天 多三天這個公投的正確性才是最重要的"},{"start":7866.827,"end":7873.932,"text":"那麼我們現今我們看到新國會智庫公佈的民調有66%是支持公投綁大選的反對才一半而已所以中選會也提出會不會綁大選會不會當議題私交這個部分其實我認為基本上不會模糊公投的焦點都已經討論半年以上了還模糊焦點你是讓我們選民當傻子"},{"start":7891.886,"end":7893.388,"text":"所以我認為反而是把公投有機會綁大選的話讓候選人有機會把事情講清楚你的立場到底是什麼選民更能夠選出更對的人來反映當時候的一個民意"},{"start":7909.085,"end":7909.125,"text":"主席"},{"start":7927.429,"end":7927.629,"text":"投票行為改變"},{"start":7957.489,"end":7961.45,"text":"這個是依照我們過去選舉之來的一個選舉的習慣我認為這樣的一個選舉習慣是可以加以來尊重的所以這個部分我們應該要仔細來考量當然在過去怎麼樣去做技術上的問題也剛才有學者專家到了我們在籍投票的方式已經入法了可是這個入法到現在各位"},{"start":7985.078,"end":7988.299,"text":"我記得當時候中選會李主委講過他當時候6年前說兩年要來訂立這個法到現在6年了還沒有來改變還沒有來訂立所以不再擠投票其實也是一個技術上能夠改變這個合併大選的一個做法我認為中選會難道只會傳統的一張選票的選舉方式嗎"},{"start":8009.925,"end":8033.452,"text":"現在行政院已經有了科技部已經有了數位部難道連一個電子投票或者通訊投票都做不出來嗎所以如果再做不出來乾脆中選會移給立法院好了立法院我看現在的表現都非常棒所以讓立法院來擔任中選會的管理院體的機構好了所以這也就是說我們必須要考量"},{"start":8033.752,"end":8035.533,"text":"謝謝吳教授接下來我們請立法委員徐益臻委員"},{"start":8066.436,"end":8095.343,"text":"謝謝主席還有在場的各位學者、專家、各位官員以及我們立法院的同事大家早我想剛剛韋智教授他講得非常的好因為其實以現在的公投法的部分歷經了多次的修訂從可以公投綁大選到公投不能綁大選其實我們就可以看得出來等一下會提出一些數據來跟大家做分享為什麼我們主張要公投綁大選那其實我們可以看到"},{"start":8095.703,"end":8095.723,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8114.653,"end":8142.873,"text":"所以大家很樂意能夠出來投票因此成案也非常多有10個案子那這10個案子之中因爲民進黨的主張沒有一個通過所以民進黨被民意狠狠的打臉之後在2019年就提案修法要將公投與大選分開執行而且公投只能兩年一次還要選在暑假的期間舉行所以這樣的做法"},{"start":8143.393,"end":8164.912,"text":"明顯的就是要降低公民投票發起的意願還有公民返鄉投票的意願進而造成投票率降低跟代表性不足的問題那我們可以看到2018年的公投跟2021年公投單獨舉行的這個跟分開舉行的狀況2018年全國的公投投票率是55.8%"},{"start":8166.693,"end":8168.314,"text":"公投與大選分開嚴重影響其投票意願"},{"start":8193.604,"end":8193.744,"text":"主席"},{"start":8217.694,"end":8236.535,"text":"其實世界各地都有公投綁大選進行的國家也有公投跟大選分開的那當時造成的這個選舉亂象監察院跟行政院都認為是州選會安排不周所致並不是合併選舉而造成的所以在2018年11月29號"},{"start":8238.597,"end":8250.603,"text":"當時的行政院長賴清德在行政院會聽取中選會的報告的時候呢他有表示未來選舉合併公投舉辦是將成為常態請中選會重新檢討整體選務的作業包括對於公投案的查驗聯署社會各項建言以及把兩種投票程序同步進行的有效分流的方式一個月內提出改進的方案所以當時中選會"},{"start":8268.232,"end":8268.792,"text":"投票率是民主制度正當性的一個基石"},{"start":8288.977,"end":8289.137,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8308.857,"end":8331.43,"text":"民主社會最重要的是保障全民參與決策的一個機會那長期來看呢如果公投跟選舉分開的話會造成這個成案發起的這個連署的意願所以長期來看也會影響選民對民主制度的一個信心所以曾經有一個研究顯示平凡的選舉會導致選民出現選舉疲勞進而降低人民參與的熱情跟動力"},{"start":8336.914,"end":8337.214,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8351.578,"end":8351.618,"text":"以上,謝謝"},{"start":8383.746,"end":8388.015,"text":"謝謝徐益臻委員接下來請政大法律系陳柏良教授"},{"start":8407.424,"end":8429.563,"text":"主席與會的各個機關首長和今天在場參與的各位先進大家好我是陳柏良今天很榮幸受邀在貴院能夠就公民投票的部分發表一些我對於這個制度的一些想法第一個是先針對公民投票一直大家強調的是要實現直接民權的部分跟主權在民的原則"},{"start":8430.163,"end":8452.646,"text":"那這個地方我是完全贊成那只是我們在思考什麼是國民主權原則的時候必須思考一件事我們現在關鍵是自由民主憲政秩序自由民主憲政秩序就是必須要平衡國民主權跟少數群體的權利中間怎麼達到平衡那所以接下來說我們的討論就會變成說我們民主制度裡面到底是蕾家式的民主還是審議式的民主"},{"start":8453.146,"end":8481.374,"text":"那如果我們在這個前提下開始討論的時候其實公民投票它算是一個立法政策形成的空間有非常寬廣的空間但是我們要去具體去思考說什麼是一個比較好的審議式民主的空間還有審議期間應該怎麼樣的怎麼樣的設計還有審議的過程應該怎麼樣的設計那今天如果算是就提剛的討論來說的話第一個是在討論說是不是應該要一案一張還是多案一張的部分那我先以我個人經驗來因為我父親是很早就有青光眼跟老花眼"},{"start":8481.914,"end":8503.305,"text":"那也就是變成說在台灣高齡化的社會之下我還記得2018年他選票看非常久啊看非常久就是縱使是多案多章他一張一張在閱讀的時候所以我的建議是這樣是說如果我們未來縱使要採一案一張的話第一個字體一定要放大那還有就是這個投開票所必須放那個老花眼鏡包括像我也有點粗老"},{"start":8504.145,"end":8527.02,"text":"所以我連看字的時候也是要稍微 也是常常要調整一下距離所以其實我是在思考這件事如果今天是在公民識別或是公民識讀這邊的話我們如果要進行多案一張 多案一張的話那就是第一個問題就是說我們怎麼樣確保我們即將要走入高齡化社會我想在座大家也很多自己的父母或祖父母在投票的時候都會碰到這個困擾"},{"start":8527.981,"end":8548.531,"text":"所以就變是當然我認為多案一張或一案一張這可以用那個施行細則的部分來處理但是我是建議是說就在事辦之前我們可能要先進行實證就是要多大的字體才可以造成說第一個才不會造成選務的困擾還有整個投票流動性還有就是老人在閱讀的時候能夠順利這是第一個部分"},{"start":8549.071,"end":8549.372,"text":"公投綁大選議題"},{"start":8566.834,"end":8567.234,"text":"實空背景改變以後"},{"start":8596.994,"end":8619.029,"text":"我們在整個公投綁大選這個的必要性上面其實就不是關鍵已經不是必要性了而是在公投綁而是在於是說我們怎麼樣第一個提升投票率第二個是怎麼樣有能夠造成有一個有意義的審議的期間那審議期間其實我會認為分兩個部分當然提高投票率部分剛剛包括蘇教授吳老師什麼也都討論到很多包括那個其他的一些配套措施"},{"start":8619.409,"end":8644.042,"text":"怎麼提高投票率但是如果是真的在討論審議期間的時候其實就有分成兩個部分第一個是在於是說在公投 這中選會的公投審議期間的時候那個委員會包括審查委員的那個代表性跟多元性有沒有兼顧也就是我個人參與過去的經驗的時候也常常會出現到是說那個審查委員會裡面就是公投審議委員會或中選會在邀請專家學者的時候裡面多元性不管是性別多元 族群多元"},{"start":8644.842,"end":8649.185,"text":"民主自由憲政秩序或自由民主憲政秩序下所謂少數權力的那個部分那這個問題會有兩種可能性第一個就是在於是說我們是要導入事前的核心性審查"},{"start":8671.761,"end":8693.263,"text":"在公告之前,我們是不是要有一個異議期間,也就是說對於潛在可能受侵害的少數群體他有沒有可能,第一個包括提出異議,提出反對性的公投或是第三個甚至是去提出憲法訴訟或是定暫時狀態假處分也就是我們是不是在審議期間結束之後是不是有一個公告異議的期間,那這是第二個部分"},{"start":8693.643,"end":8694.885,"text":"公共政策的形成公共政策的創置"},{"start":8710.804,"end":8730.499,"text":"這個部分的話其實會有一個蠻複雜的就是我們在整個三個類型當中所設計的那個不管是後面的救濟程序或是後面的那個實踐過程有不一樣的設計那其實我覺得比較值得討論是立法原則的創制和重大公共政策的形成跟創制的部分我會覺得在這邊其實我們會有應該有不同的思考"},{"start":8730.919,"end":8752.592,"text":"那因為我剛剛看到提案裡面會出現一個狀況是說如果出現重大公共政策的那個創制部分如果是行政機關行政怠惰不作為的時候那應該怎麼處理那其實在實務問題上永遠會出現一個狀況是行政機關可能會先提出一個看似言之成理的草案但事實上其實跟公投意旨是不符合的"},{"start":8753.152,"end":8779.058,"text":"所以就是這個法條本身在操作可能性上會變至愛難行所以其實我的建議會是這樣是說如果我們今天在立法原則創製上已經有導入那個憲法法庭的那個審查機制的話那接下來是我們在立法原則所謂立法原則在重大公共政策的創製上面其實也可以在因為一定會出現行政跟立法兩方或行政方跟公投提案人出現是否有具體回應這件事情上"},{"start":8780.038,"end":8806.733,"text":"會出現不一致那這個時候其實我認為關鍵其實是在於是說有沒有一個中間的仲裁機制或是中間的機關能夠第三方能夠來裁決說這個到底有沒有有沒有造成有沒有具體回應或是對所以這個是在那個立法原則跟重大公共政策形成的部分的那個一個建議那其實接下來是有一個裡面有一個比較分支的討論是在於是說我們公民投票之後到底拘束的期間是兩年還是四年"},{"start":8807.293,"end":8824.888,"text":"那當然我今天看到草案當中是希望從2年改為4年但是我會有一個建議是這樣就是如果以目前台灣全球的科技的發展的速度不管是AI或核能技術那核能技術的進步包括安全性的那個技術進步也是非常快的那我以這個例子為例就是說以核能電廠這個為例"},{"start":8826.129,"end":8848.104,"text":"也就是說我們在未來一到兩年內會不會科技有爆炸性的發展我們並不清楚所以就是如果一旦是定時四年的話也就是變成是說我們如果一旦有科技的快速進展的時候我們會無法跟上時代那不管是科技的兩岸關係或是國際局勢或者是所以在這邊如果既然是第一個是與時俱進的原則下我的建議是還是維持兩年"},{"start":8848.504,"end":8863.478,"text":"如果4年的話就會造成是不只是直接民權的問題是直接民權怎麼樣能夠具體的展現就是變成拉長式就變成連就新民意不能推翻舊民意新公投不能推翻舊公投所以我的建議是4年這個部分我的建議是還是維持兩年比較恰當"},{"start":8864.119,"end":8893.459,"text":"那至於剛剛在花了蠻多時間是怎麼樣造成有效的審議跟怎麼樣有效提高公民投票的那個投票率的部分其實我會認為是說審議跟公民投票率這兩個部分我們過去常常是分開來思考甚至我們是用政治動員的角度來想但其實在整個審議的過程中我覺得關鍵不是拉長而是在於是怎麼樣讓行政、立法、司法三方都能夠有機會能夠在這個地方能夠參與才能真正落實自由民主憲政秩序好 那非常謝謝各位委員 謝謝"},{"start":8896.503,"end":8896.824,"text":"李筍成 講師"},{"start":8913.138,"end":8931.615,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位老師、各位先進大家好很榮幸有這個機會跟大家報告自己簡短的意見因為時間非常有限我們直接進入主題我直接就先講結論比較快因為在法國我們說如果說公投跟大選切開的話法國就是最明顯的例子他有非常明顯的立法力"},{"start":8932.837,"end":8936.5,"text":"但是也就是因為這樣而且他的表決有效逼雙門檻參與率必須要50%投票也必須要占到50%這才可以如果沒有到達這個門檻的話通通都是只有諮詢性質"},{"start":8948.23,"end":8969.717,"text":"結果法國2030修憲之後才有地方公投地方公投是嚴格跟這切開的當然理由也是說不要跟這種混在一起實際上不可能不可能比如說法國全國公投也是人跟也是公投跟選舉切開問題是說1960年的戴高樂提出選舉就是總統有一名選舉"},{"start":8970.937,"end":8971.377,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8990.825,"end":8991.446,"text":"公投選舉批評舉行以及勞費"},{"start":9009.722,"end":9032.14,"text":"投票率超過50%以上只有21次也就是說其他高達40幾次根本就無效根本因為成本與範圍太低了投票率超過40%只有66次總共就是只有高達32次投票率根本低於40%就是法國切開的關係就是因為這麼低那麼投票率最高的97%為什麼"},{"start":9035.223,"end":9044.272,"text":"百分之九一計投票率為什麽?因爲它非常瑣碎是否贊成設立4G基地台那除掉最低的百分之三"},{"start":9046.783,"end":9070.984,"text":"我們說公投綁大選 我會說公投跟選舉切開 那麼我們要考慮一個非常切身的問題 錢哪裡來那法國今年6月9號解散國會 總共花了2800萬歐元 高達9億新台幣那9億新台幣其實很便宜啦 為什麼 因為他們很多的開票志工是免費的 就是一般公民去擔任的 不是讓我們所有的選舉人員通常都要付錢的"},{"start":9071.704,"end":9095.952,"text":"我就去看過我在旁邊看他們沒有去算因為我不是法國人要不然他們就是十幾桌像這樣桌一樣每一桌四個人開通通都是公民之公通通不用付錢所以他這樣就變得很便宜問題是說你光這樣子法國國債也非常高他已經是超過歐盟的上限而且超過非常非常多因此總理說要提出要削減600億歐元預算所以知書必講"},{"start":9096.852,"end":9112.762,"text":"那我們就結論說美國、瑞士都證實公民投票是可以跟選舉一起進行的而且事實上就要投票投票率魁北克地區也是一樣我們法律上也找不到公投跟大選要切開的這種規定他們都是在禮拜天舉行"},{"start":9113.662,"end":9116.825,"text":"巴黎、里昂、馬賽三大都市投票時間延長到晚上8點鐘其他的小鄉鎮只有到晚上4、6點鐘就結束了因為就用這樣子來確保"},{"start":9137.145,"end":9137.965,"text":"總共有146項公民投票一起舉行"},{"start":9162.037,"end":9183.891,"text":"在美國這一次11月5號跟總統、州長、眾院院參議員的選舉統統綁在一起因為他不這樣的話根本沒有人來美國這麼大根本沒有人來其實不管地方大小你選舉一起舉行人一定會比較多這是其實根本不用太多討論這是常識而且他們如果說基本人權可不可以共同當然可以 為什麼"},{"start":9184.568,"end":9209.731,"text":"多胎選要不要寫入州縣呢?要啊!很多寫進去了或者禁止多胎選入州縣都有這兩種都有都寫進去了瑞士網上很多奇怪的講法不要說奇怪因為大家可能看到資料不同就說瑞士有人說公投跟選舉是切開的我去查一下未必是如此起碼說地方跟中央的聯邦公投是會盡量同天舉行我特別用把它找出英文的頁面出來"},{"start":9214.515,"end":9228.667,"text":"公投中央地方一起進行這是法文版他甚至已經把未來20年的公投跟選舉一起通訂出來了可是他有一個很重要條文是在這個紅色點"},{"start":9234.325,"end":9253.334,"text":"總之聯邦總理的秘書處可以把這些事情從調整如果有重要理由的話可以合併舉辦他有這個非常重要的條文我把它通通就是這個條文在政治權利斥令跟聯邦政治權利法相關條文我都把它找出來這是可以調整的為了逼 那麼"},{"start":9254.761,"end":9283.303,"text":"這是瑞士的情況魁北克的情況也是一樣魁北克也是市政選舉跟公投都是在禮拜天舉行那麼我就詳細查過他並沒有並沒有互相排去排斥切開的規定所以我們如果比較一下法國立法例法國是明白切開的就是公投跟選舉絕對不可以同一天我講的是地方因為全國公投法國沒有明文規定地方居方公投跟選舉是明文規定切開的但是在我們比較魁北克的法語區魁北克"},{"start":9284.424,"end":9286.187,"text":"法國地方公投是很早在使用的"},{"start":9300.827,"end":9317.098,"text":"我們可以看這是一個表格以事項來區分基礎建設 基礎重劃投票率是最高但實際上我們剛剛已經看到了投票率超過50%的只有21次因為他們一定規定投票率超過50%才有效所以變成說超過50%的只有21次不到1%的公投是有效的"},{"start":9327.085,"end":9329.766,"text":"主席 在座的委員還有各位學者先進大家好"},{"start":9356.483,"end":9375.391,"text":"回顧我國公投法的修法、立法以及實踐的歷程我們2003年公投法公布實行當時是採用的就是雙二一的門檻設計即便是在全國性的公投當中投票率過半而且有效過半的同意才算是通過在當初認為這是個高門檻那被績效為這是個民主的鳥籠公投"},{"start":9380.413,"end":9381.295,"text":"在2017七年的時候當時立法院又修改公投法大幅降低公投提案及通過的門檻"},{"start":9391.82,"end":9396.463,"text":"那麼2018年因為有十個公投案合併九合一的選舉那麼造成就是當時在投票過程當中的混亂那麼以至於就是民進黨在2019年的時候呢夾著立法院的席次優勢又再次修正公投法那麼規定公投日是兩年才可以實行一次而且呢也就是要錯開選舉年"},{"start":9419.48,"end":9425.603,"text":"民進黨當時這樣的一個修法其實是大幅限制人民的創制複決權在我們憲法民文規定要保障人民的創制複決權而公民投票法本來就是在落實國民主權原則可是沒有想到民進黨這樣子的一個修改是大幅限制人民的創制複決權從本來是"},{"start":9444.392,"end":9444.932,"text":"本席認為公投本來就是應該是要"},{"start":9471.38,"end":9493.845,"text":"反映人民對於公共政策議題的看法那麼國家就應該要在民意的基礎上去施政民意的代表性越充足越好而且越及時越好那麼公投脫鉤大選的確是會造成投票率的降低而兩年半一次的確是沒有辦法及時的去反映民意那麼所以呢如果說今天我們的"},{"start":9494.985,"end":9521.717,"text":"公投從提案、連署、成案到投票都已經經過相當的嚴謹的程序以及時程這時候還是可以回復到過去的公投綁大選甚至廢除兩年一次的行使公投如此才可以提高民眾的關注度還有與政府對話的機會每一次的公投都是人民自由意志的展現是直接民權的落實"},{"start":9523.698,"end":9527.68,"text":"我們知道其實20162016年當時時任文化部的部長鄭麗君曾經有提出過公投生活化的這樣的一個目標可是大家想想看我們今天公投有生活化嗎我們公投現在被綁得死死的每兩年才能夠行使一次所以在這樣的一個情況之下其實我們認為應該要"},{"start":9547.79,"end":9549.711,"text":"民進黨總是在說時代變遷時空環境的不同但是公投已是如此那國會改革也是如此所以呢這些都是執政者的思維不希望監督的力量變大那麼如果政府做得好那何須又怕人民公投呢"},{"start":9575.389,"end":9596.278,"text":"2018o18年當時的選務工作混亂的結果其實應該要從選務上面去進行改革包括解決不實虛假的連署同時要落實不在即投票利用科技來解決問題而不是在人民的權利上面加上層層的限制禁錮人民的權利"},{"start":9597.478,"end":9609.305,"text":"本席主張公投應該回復綁大選的制度而且廢除兩年一次才能實施公投讓更多的民眾可以參與並且可以降低成本和人力物力以上謝謝好 謝謝翁曉琳委員我們接下來請我們的前立委也是中山大學的張其路教授"},{"start":9626.262,"end":9646.918,"text":"謝謝徐召偉當然這次這個議題真的非常的重要其實這個公投綁大選其實我也跟當然在與會的各位來報告一下其實早在上一屆國會的時候其實這就是議題了事實上我們也知道在2021年的時候事實上我們有四項的公投案"},{"start":9647.919,"end":9657.889,"text":"其實那個時候的民眾黨我也說一下其實在這個課題上是比較一開始他是反對但是後來是以開放的態度因為事實上這真的是一個比較複雜的課題我們必須直說"},{"start":9661.552,"end":9678.202,"text":"市長我個人也在內政委員會有一會期過也必須很坦白說當然現在看起來有很多的理由正反方都有比如說可能比較反對的主要就是以我們現在政府部門那比較在談的就是說"},{"start":9679.082,"end":9694.894,"text":"好像這件事呢讓選務會非常的複雜好像到時候選舉的時候過程邊投票邊開票造成這個選務的不公那另外的話也有一個比較就是可能就是中選會這邊的概念或者內政部在講的就是說認為比較讓民眾沒有這個審慎思辨的這個時間等等這些大概就是這一類的理由"},{"start":9704.572,"end":9731.904,"text":"當然我比較現在支持這個案希望說公投跟大選能綁在一起比較是我們在野黨這個部分那比較大概談就是說當然成本的節省還有讓這個整體這個事情比較投票率可以比較衝高其實說實話各都有他的道理這個我必須承認但是我必須這樣講我自己在擔任立委的時候我也必須講一件事這我可能比較想要談的是一個技術面的問題"},{"start":9733.356,"end":9754.751,"text":"大家有沒有仔細去想過選務困難這件事是一個非常棒的理由嗎其實我不覺得是個好理由從我自己當立委的時候因為為什麼我必須先報告一件事我剛才還查了一下我過去的臉書談到一件事我說連愛沙尼亞的那個不在籍投票的那些機器或者他們等等"},{"start":9756.474,"end":9757.275,"text":"選務工作到底是不是能辦好?"},{"start":9781.232,"end":9800.103,"text":"坦白說啦 這個綁這件事是不是真的是這麼危險我還是必須直說其實我們很多的綁啊你九合一大選不是綁在一起嗎大家全部都綁在一起啊那人跟市的選舉不能綁這個也不盡然說得過去人跟市"},{"start":9801.86,"end":9819.223,"text":"其實都是民權的展現嘛而且如果說大家搭配一起討論也不是不行我必須說實話這次民眾黨他是有提他這次的修法版本他比較著重在就是我講的這個技術面的版本上就是說他說如果是今天要綁在一起"},{"start":9820.472,"end":9833.78,"text":"公投案很多是還是這樣的一人一張嗎那當時一人一張確實是沒錯搞混的搞亂了大家也不知道說這個要怎麼投然後投的亂七八糟那既然有了那個經驗而且又從2018已經"},{"start":9836.101,"end":9860.24,"text":"就有那個亂象了走到今天我們真的就問嘛公投法自己也說啊不在即是OK的可是我們在第10屆國會那時候就在講就在追追中選會就希望說能夠把這件事情要落實甚至我講更遠一點的包括EID如果這些東西能夠上位甚至我們在過去第10屆國會的時候甚至都還成立了事務發佈"},{"start":9862.034,"end":9882.014,"text":"有這麼多單位都要搞定這些事的結果很抱歉還到我們第11屆了由我們召委還繼續在開始還要公聽會還要再談這些事情我直說啦如果技術面比較能解決說實話啦沒有什麼理由去阻擋這個直接民權我還是必須直說"},{"start":9883.075,"end":9902.515,"text":"那至於說是不是這樣子跟公投就是說跟大選綁在一起當然如果說能夠節省而且在這個過程中坦白說技術又能夠克服其實也沒什麼不行啦而且甚至坦白說啦你如果我也看了一下上一次公聽會的很多專家意見"},{"start":9903.968,"end":9904.528,"text":"民眾黨請我來我是覺得OK 因為我還想要談就是說"},{"start":9929.545,"end":9957.307,"text":"因為當時未盡之功這麼多一直期待中選會把不在籍投票把這個選務精進這件事已經談了N年了那怎麼好像我都在想尤其像我們坦白說我們蓋章這件事大家會不會覺得說這是很好玩的一件事我們到這個21世紀在那裡蓋章在那這樣子驗這真的是蠻好笑的我很必須直說"},{"start":9959.718,"end":9962.435,"text":"國外其實那個時候投票那個案子也很多的"},{"start":9963.735,"end":9967.238,"text":"全球最厲害的IC大國我們是不是也可以自己用我們的ICT我們的設備來更新這些事情甚至講白了會真的要那麼亂嗎會亂到這個"},{"start":9990.117,"end":9990.699,"text":"臺灣也不是真的很大啦必須直說好了"},{"start":9998.871,"end":10000.032,"text":"人民是不是就是用審議民主的觀念來想的話其實齁"},{"start":10021.235,"end":10032.695,"text":"當然人民自己也有他自己的責任我必須直說就是人民自己在怎麼看待這些案子他是只聽政黨搖旗吶喊的還是怎麼樣其實也不見得"},{"start":10033.996,"end":10051.758,"text":"反而是那個資訊要充分反而是在那個過程中那既然我們當時就是一直說從鳥籠公投一直希望他不要是鳥籠公投希望他能夠讓直接民意能夠更彰顯那所以這些事情我是覺得說我們其實是"},{"start":10053.231,"end":10076.161,"text":"前提就是技術面如果好好地把它先改進本來就該做其實是我們行政的怠惰比如說公投法裡面就是說不再急著要搞定的這些如果通通都能夠上位的話反而今天的議題是好解的而不是說在這些好像我可以必須告訴你所有事情都會說技術很困難"},{"start":10078.097,"end":10078.217,"text":"陳克勤議員"},{"start":10098.726,"end":10101.888,"text":"接下來我們要請列席的與會機關代表來回應說明首先我們就請中選會陳副主委"},{"start":10133.601,"end":10151.72,"text":"召集委員在座各位委員各位專家學者各位機關代表各位女士先生中選會這邊做幾點回應第一點回應是理性的思辯才是公民投票實施的基礎在選務機關的立場上"},{"start":10156.311,"end":10183.829,"text":"我們支持現行公投與大選脫鉤辦理的這個規定主要的一個原因並不是只是給選務機關合理的選務籌備期間而是公投與大選分開來辦理將人跟事來進行脫鉤可以有助於這個政黨政治的一個運作"},{"start":10185.103,"end":10206.35,"text":"在過程中避免藉由夾帶來影響政局最後也經由選民跟投票權人的理性思辨我們可以邁向下一階段更為理性、更為穩定、更為民主鞏固的國家政治"},{"start":10207.402,"end":10228.26,"text":"第二是有關剛剛各界所提的若干技術性的一個規定技術是歸技術但要考慮到幾個層面的問題第一個層面是法律的規定第二個層面是社會的信任第三個是相關的一個客觀這個局勢"},{"start":10230.658,"end":10252.311,"text":"舉例來說,很多先進提到可以實施電子投票或網路投票等更先進的投票技術但是我們要就法律的規定,我們要就社會的信任跟客觀的情勢來進行考量如同在上週公聽會的一個回應裡頭"},{"start":10253.371,"end":10281.278,"text":"我們也可以清楚的了解到全球最希望台灣實施先進電子投票或網路投票的國家應該會是境外敵對這個勢力所以我們要反過來這個想想看我們要如何確保台灣的一個民主的鞏固那第三呢聆聽各界的一個聲音仍然是有必要的那有關各界所提出來的多案一票的一個"},{"start":10282.345,"end":10300.479,"text":"這一個公民投票的一個選票設計在法律上跟實務上都是屬於不可行的那為什麼不可行因為如果是多按一票的話它是會導致選民沒有辦法履行他投票或"},{"start":10301.079,"end":10318.352,"text":"不投票的一個權利這涉及到了法律以及憲法所規定的人民權利的一個問題那第二個是在實務上有關有效票或無效票的一個認定有他認定的一個方式如果多按一票"},{"start":10319.592,"end":10345.721,"text":"會導致這個選票的一個認定要認定為有效票或無效票相當的一個困難更重要的是多按一票會導致開票的一個時間反而會更長理由是因為在多按一票的這個情況之下反而更難讓公眾來進行有效的一個監督也更難讓在場的一個監察人員"},{"start":10347.12,"end":10347.56,"text":"內政部董事長"},{"start":10375.3,"end":10395.802,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進各位學界的代表專家非常感謝今天內政委員會針對公民投票法提出相關的公聽會也聆聽了許多專家學者以及委員的高見我想對於公民投票我們非常清楚公民投票的重點"},{"start":10402.068,"end":10410.236,"text":"民主主權的實踐以及民意的表達在民主社會裡面本來就有多元的管道與方式"},{"start":10411.897,"end":10411.937,"text":"主席"},{"start":10433.078,"end":10459.947,"text":"所以公民投票法事實上也歷經了完整的修正那在整個修正的過程裡面我們降低了許多的門檻提案的門檻聯署的門檻以及通過的門檻這些門檻的修正其實都大幅的增加了公民的參加的意願以及投票的可能性甚至讓許多的議題都得以有機會表達我想公民投票的關鍵包括這些提案的過程其實都是一個公民社會討論的過程不論成難與否"},{"start":10462.968,"end":10488.799,"text":"實際上他都引發了這個社會對於許多重要議題的討論而這是一個民主社會公民社會最專見的一件事情所以我們還是願意聆聽更多人的意見那我們也尊重中選會對於選舉制度的相關的規範那內政部作為執行選舉的單位我們會依據法令的規範我們來強加執行再一次重申公民投票是一個"},{"start":10490.379,"end":10493.46,"text":"謝謝董事長本席請問司法院及法務部的出席代表有沒有要回應的"},{"start":10516.817,"end":10518.538,"text":"傅希怡大律師"},{"start":10536.718,"end":10541.202,"text":"中午的時間然後請讓我在間約一點時間然後再做一下那個那個簡單的一個發言內容就非常感謝就是主席還有就方才也有就是幾位委員他們也特別白忙前來來給我們一些一些一些"},{"start":10553.012,"end":10579.991,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10580.632,"end":10601.969,"text":"我一直非常關心的一點就是我們一直在講共同綁大選共同綁大選但是我看到的法案我們要綁的是選舉怎麼好像大家的目的好像有點太特定了一點而且如果從共同綁大選來講的話大選是四年才一次也如果我們要能夠彰顯人民的人民主權的話四年一次比現在的兩年一次還更少"},{"start":10603.61,"end":10604.21,"text":"選舉合併公投選舉我們的選舉又不是走大選而已不是嗎"},{"start":10623.218,"end":10647.943,"text":"所以其實選舉和並公投這個本身這個議題確實是可以拿來討論的這個我覺得著無用意因為畢竟就是為了要節省錢嘛因為畢竟財政是我們的國家那個國家最重要的基礎啊因為這個財政都是我們納稅人的民脂民膏來的所以其實節省錢這件事情我本身我也覺得非常重要但是我也必須要說節約能源節省錢"},{"start":10650.163,"end":10667.774,"text":"解省資源很重要但是我們不能因噎廢食我們不能夠怕噎到我們就不敢吃飯不是嗎所以我們不能夠怕說只是因為怕花錢然後我們就不讓人民能夠行使公投的權利所以我剛剛其實為此我都覺得很考慮一點就是說大家的概念是不是有點邏輯矛盾了"},{"start":10669.355,"end":10691.411,"text":"就是方才徐宇貞委員有講到說平凡選舉會浪費錢所以我們不能夠平凡選舉所以我們要把公投綁在選舉裡可是問題是平凡選舉跟平凡公投這個目的其實是不同的但也非常感謝讓我有第二次發言的機會我剛剛跳過去的powerpoint就是大家的紙本的第9頁"},{"start":10693.43,"end":10708.329,"text":"其實我在資本的第9頁下方欸如果說POPPING也能夠快速的顯現一下就是我有一頁就是公投VS選舉我有整理一下就是我們公民投票跟選舉的概念差在哪裡說真的是幾乎totally 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中央銀行總裁楊金隆、財政部部長莊翠雲、金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭金隆等、主席賴昭君委員（113年11月13日（針對本院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（"},{"start":1933.238,"end":1951.484,"text":"議案之審查程序嚴重違反立法院職權行使法、立法院議事規則等本次會議審查結果應屬無效且本次會議議事錄未依規定記載應不予確定提案人郭國文、賴慧妍、李坤成、吳秉瑞、吳麗華、王世堅表決結果贊成者少數本案不通過"},{"start":1953.144,"end":1976.762,"text":"8事項宣讀第6次第7次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定討論事項依審查貨物稅條例11案1行政院函請審議本院臺灣民政黨黨團委員張志文等17人委員賴世保等26人委員蔡其桑等18人委員吳立華等19人委員陳冠廷等23人委員陳金蕙等16人委員賴慧媛等18人分別擬據貨稅條例第12條挑釁修正草案等9案2本院委員寬衡等16人擬據"},{"start":1981.265,"end":2009.108,"text":"獲稅條例第12條及第12條之3條營修正查案本院委員郭國文等16人已據獲稅條例第12條及第12條之6條營修正查案審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位稅率預算部分審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心稅出預算部分審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算、分營業部分有關財政部主管"},{"start":2009.788,"end":2035.896,"text":"財務基金、中央政府財務基金、臺灣事項個案合併詢答。經臺灣民眾黨黨團代表黃珊珊委員、委員賴世寶、顏寬恆、陳金輝說明提案要旨。財政部部長莊卓盈分別就預算案及行政院提案報告並回應黨團委員法律提案後,藉由委員林德福等19人提出質詢,均經財政部部長莊卓盈等予以說明及答覆。委員蔡其章所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報,"},{"start":2036.836,"end":2060.712,"text":"並請相關部會議書面答覆．委員執行會及答覆．或請補充資訊．請相關部會議一週內書面答覆．委員密要求期限者從其鎖定。決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位稅率預算部分財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心稅數預算部分及附屬單位預算、分營業部分"},{"start":2061.172,"end":2088.082,"text":"有關財政部主管債務基金、中央政府債務基金均另擇期繼續審查。3.審查貨物稅條例11案。審查結果。1.第12條條文照行政院提案通過。2.第12條之3及第12條之6條文均維持現行條文。2.本案全案審查完畢。偏案一具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論前不需交由黨團協商。院會討論時由賴召集委員會員補充說明。4.各委員如果相關預算提案"},{"start":2088.962,"end":2103.154,"text":"請於11月18日星期一中午12點以前送至財政委員會議事人員受見,通過臨時提案一案。113年11月14日,報告事項,邀請中央銀行楊總裁金榮、財政部莊部長翠雲、"},{"start":2104.235,"end":2129.634,"text":"金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金融就美國新任總統的《貿易政策對臺灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策》進行專題報告並被質詢。談論事項一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案行政稅率預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳戶部分二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有關中央銀行含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠"},{"start":2130.755,"end":2157.73,"text":"報告討論事項和平詢答經中央銀行總裁楊金隆財政部部長莊翠雲金隆監督管理委員會主任委員彭金隆提出報告後藉由委員林德福等19人提出質詢均經中央銀行總裁楊金隆等予以答覆決議一報告說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內書面答覆委員另要求其見者從其鎖定三委員王志堅、何新淳、邱志偉所提書面質詢略略記錄刊登公報"},{"start":2159.851,"end":2184.316,"text":"並請相關部會以書面答覆是審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案行政稅率預算有關中央銀行股息紅利腳庫部分及附屬單位營業附屬單位預算營業部分有關中央銀行含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠均另折及繼續審查五個委員如有相關預算提案請11月20日星期三中午12點以前送至財政委員會議事人員收件。訓斷完畢"},{"start":2187.424,"end":2200.338,"text":"謝謝議事人員的選讀由於在場的委員沒有到達法庭人數我們議事錄暫時不確定等到其他委員到的時候我們再一併的確定那麼請議事人員選讀今日的議程"},{"start":2203.201,"end":2221.946,"text":"討論事項,審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、稅率預算﹐稅出預算部分暨融資財源調度。（審查完畢謝謝,我們現在介紹在場的委員,吳秉樂委員"},{"start":2229.844,"end":2258.424,"text":"在場的官員財政部的莊部長護稅署的宋署長會計處的李處長以及國庫署的陳署長和關務署的彭署長國有財政署的曾署長財政資訊中心的張主任以及北國的吳局長"},{"start":2261.854,"end":2289.984,"text":"以及高雄國稅局的翁局長北區國稅局的李局長中區國稅局的樓局長南區國稅局的李局長行政院主計總處公務預算處的檢任視察李檢任視察好我們現在就請財政部的專務部長進行預算案的內容報告請"},{"start":2297.745,"end":2307.357,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早貴委員會今天審查114年度賦稅署還有五區國稅局及所屬以及關務署還有國有財產署及兩署的所屬歲出預算及融資財源的調度"},{"start":2313.615,"end":2333.694,"text":"以下僅就各該機關稅出預算的編列情形以及融資財源的調度則要提出報告首先是負稅署編列了204億餘元主要是統一發票的給獎以及推行經費地方政府土增稅的短少補助還有地方政府移證稅的短少補助"},{"start":2335.179,"end":2360.519,"text":"請參閱報告第一頁及附錄一臺北國稅局編列27億餘元主要是該局的中正分局辦公廳社取得計劃的經費還有人員維持基本還有基本行政經費請參閱第二頁及附錄二高雄國稅局是編列18億餘元主要是人員維持費以及基本行政經費請參閱第二頁到第三頁以及附錄三"},{"start":2361.311,"end":2373.551,"text":"我們北區國稅局及所屬是編列了30億餘元主要是該局的盧竹基徵所、辦公廳社取得計劃的經費還有人員維持以及基本行政經費請參閱我們報告的第三頁及附錄式"},{"start":2377.383,"end":2399.514,"text":"中區國稅局及所屬是編列了25億餘元主要是該局的東市基增所的辦公廳設新建經費還有人員維持費還有基本行政經費請參閱我們報告的第4頁以及附錄5在我們南區國稅局及所屬是編列了20億餘元主要是該局的東港基增所的辦公廳設新建計劃的經費"},{"start":2401.375,"end":2408.041,"text":"以及人員維持費和基本行政經費請參與我們報告的第4頁到第5頁以及附錄6那麼關務署及所屬是編列了75億餘元主要是數位海關再造計劃臺中關第二貨櫃中西移檢站的軌道式貨櫃檢查儀的建置計劃以及基隆關"},{"start":2423.072,"end":2444.676,"text":"的C16私貨倉庫的新建計劃經費請參閱我們報告的第5頁到第6頁以及附錄7國有財產署及所屬是編列了32億餘元主要包括了向海致敬的海岸清潔維護計劃還有被佔用國有非公用不動產加強清理第二期計劃的經費還有處理國有財產所需的稅捐請參閱第6頁到第7頁以及附錄8"},{"start":2451.457,"end":2462.343,"text":"第二大部分是就融資財源調度的部分提出報告114年度中央政府總預算稅入編列的3兆1534億那麼稅出編列的是3兆1325億稅入稅出剩餘209億支應債務還本1415億還需要融資調度的數額是1206億那麼規劃移用以前年度的稅計剩餘500億"},{"start":2478.571,"end":2485.277,"text":"那麼舉借債務是706億來做支應截至113年10月底中央政府所舉借的長期債務實際數是5,8780億那麼占前三年度明目GDP的平均數是26%到114年底中央政府長期債務餘額的預算數"},{"start":2499.688,"end":2507.013,"text":"那麼依照公債法的規定是按照112年底抓政府長期債務餘額的實際數5兆8188億元聯同歷年特別預算融資調度的保留數2397億元再加上113年度還有114年度預計的債務舉借數"},{"start":2520.543,"end":2526.526,"text":"我們在扣除債務償還數額後預估到114年底中央政府長期債務餘額是6到8098億元但是在這裡要特別說明的是113年度因為總預算的稅務執行良好我們原編列的舉借數並沒有舉借那麼到時候114年底中央政府長期債務餘額的預算數就會隨之減少"},{"start":2544.676,"end":2562.845,"text":"那麼按照114年底中央長期債務餘額的預算數6兆8098億元來計算的話那麼也是佔前三年度的明目GDP的平均數是28.6百分比那麼也低於公債法所規定的債務存糧上限的40.6%而且比113年底預算數減少了"},{"start":2568.127,"end":2583.414,"text":"1.1個百分點未來本部還是會持續的會同各機關來做開源節流那麼管控稅率稅出的差短減緩債務的累積維持財政的穩健以上報告敬請各位委員會議支持指教謝謝謝謝莊部長的報告那麼現在我們再介紹林德輔委員也在場"},{"start":2598.014,"end":2623.255,"text":"現在出席委員已答可以確定意思錄請問兩位委員是不是意思錄可以確定好我們就意思錄確定我們要開始進行詢答先做以下的宣告每一位出席委員發言8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每一位列席委員發言時間5分鐘今天上午10點"},{"start":2625.154,"end":2631.44,"text":"截止法院登記．現在依登記的順序．請登記第一位的林德武委員諮詢請。謝謝,謝謝主席。莊部長,是不是請財政部莊部長。那請財政部的莊部長進。"},{"start":2650.523,"end":2676.579,"text":"委員長部長你好我請教因為內政部長劉世芳在內政委員會答詢時說新清安編列財源來自住宅基金而新清安政策是影響移轉動數重大的因素可能影響房價的升高劉部長表示要尊重主責的財政部"},{"start":2677.239,"end":2698.306,"text":"那中央銀行的抗瓦內政部配合政策編列預算那我請問部長在新青安整個政策中財政部負責哪些區塊的業務跟委員報告有關新青安的推動事實上是主要是我們由八家公股行庫來主辦"},{"start":2699.602,"end":2716.458,"text":"那因應這個因應這個央行升息為了減輕首購足的一個房屋的貸款的一個負擔所以我們的公股行庫是自行吸收辦碼是由我們行庫自行吸收那後來央行又在升息以後就由住宅基金來補貼這個"},{"start":2718.773,"end":2745.025,"text":"深息的部分大概有一碼半的一個利息支出所以是這個部分是由住宅基金支出那另外有半碼是由公股行庫自行吸收這主要是這樣的一個情況那另外新金安這個清安貸款事實上從99年的時候就是由財政部來規劃以後推出的那在112年的8月的時候因為配合整個因為房價的一個調整以及協助"},{"start":2745.485,"end":2755.771,"text":"沒有房屋的需要的自住的一個購屋需要所以推出了新清安主要是這樣子那我請問部長這些區塊業務的執行督導又分別是財政部的哪些單位或這個機關來負責這個業務主要是因為是供股行庫所以在部內是由國庫署來做督導那實際執行是在供股行庫那供股行庫在對於有關規範這個貸款的時候他必須按照"},{"start":2774.266,"end":2803.582,"text":"央行還有金管會的相關所以及銀行公會的所有的規範來做核貸。部長對於外界質疑新清安政策的買賣移轉動數直接推升房價那我請問部長你認為新清安貸款是不是房價居高不下的元兇是嗎?房價變動或升上漲其實因素很多當然因為新清安的推出讓那個沒有房屋的他想要買房子的一個"},{"start":2804.206,"end":2809.969,"text":"11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、"},{"start":2832.06,"end":2850.141,"text":"還有料整個上漲才推升它上漲的主要我說不是主要就是說因素很多因素包含這個預期心理包含原物料獲得工資等等它的成本上漲還有資金成本因素很多不是只有一個單一的因素"},{"start":2850.421,"end":2873.781,"text":"那你認為政府有沒有必要我們針對這些來調整一些政策重新檢討新清安那個新清安整個貸款額度利息補貼以及補貼時程以便儘速讓過熱的房市冷卻下來你認為有沒有必要新清安推出以後第一個我們已經又在做了進一步的調整也就是在我們"},{"start":2874.902,"end":2898.562,"text":"現於只貸一次應該是從9月吧9月開始就只現貸一次也就6月27日開始現貸一次也就是說你用了一次以後就不能再用你要珍惜使用這個新清安就是這個部分那另外呢也請公股航庫能夠加強的貸錢的審核強化貸錢審核以及貸後的管理第二個就新清安是幫助沒有自有住宅的人去買"},{"start":2898.982,"end":2905.847,"text":"但是不能讓他買了以後就是想要去做投機投資所以只能限一次而且對於出租或用人頭戶加強檢核"},{"start":2929.302,"end":2957.903,"text":"那部長第一波推出之後持續不斷至今已經到了第7波那我請問部長對於幾波下來的選擇性信用管制政策在回歸合理房價的效果上到底是民眾是有感還是無感呢?央行的一波一波推出有關所謂選擇性信用管制他也是看市場的一個整個情況來做事實的一個推出"},{"start":2958.383,"end":2958.403,"text":"部長"},{"start":2986.923,"end":3007.782,"text":"央行第7波管制措施媒體轉述對房產相關業者衝擊很大甚至於憂心恐怕殃及無辜所以央行提出一些排出性的條款那我請問部長第7波力道加大的信用管制措施你認為會不會有引發房貸市場斷頭潮的這些疑慮"},{"start":3013.147,"end":3023.301,"text":"會不會對於央行第7波管制以後那個對於有些怕央級無辜央行也做了部分比如說繼承取得的或換屋的等等做了有一些比較"},{"start":3024.156,"end":3025.837,"text":"對於財政部所屬的公股、航庫、房貸業務的推動會不會打折扣?"},{"start":3044.862,"end":3058.738,"text":"房貸業務其實第一個有銀行法72條之2的一個上限的規定那我們各個公股、行庫都必須要遵守除了這個30%這個限額之外呢他們自己也有一條警戒線是低於30%大概在28.5之間"},{"start":3061.341,"end":3061.361,"text":"部長"},{"start":3091.055,"end":3120.275,"text":"央行的楊總裁表示實施第7波選擇性的信用管制措施主要是看到房價一直上漲在之前央行也對國營的總量管制進行道德勸說剛剛陳如剛剛部長所提的銀行法第72條之2規範銀行所承作的土建農以及房貸業務總換款量不得超過存款"},{"start":3121.275,"end":3146.759,"text":"和金融債券總額的百分之三十但八家公股行庫就有五家不動產換款的比例超過百分之二十八那我請問部長你認為公股行庫是不是黃價上漲推手之一?這樣子央郎之所以會有所謂道德勸說等等就是第一個是要穩定金融市場"},{"start":3147.419,"end":3151.421,"text":"也就是說避免銀行的信用的資金過度的流向流向不動產那排擠到其他產業的需要所以希望各行庫要特別注意這一點那各個行庫呢因為銀行的道德勸說以及院長也提出來應該要做這個額度的控管也就是說對於需要的應該要優先帶給他比如說首購組織要優先帶給他"},{"start":3171.909,"end":3197.134,"text":"那避免集中到過度集中在那個大額的一個承貸戶（但是本席認為說公股房屋負責政策目的又要經營獲利那我請問部長政府既是裁判又兼求援的身分難道不應該對政策執行所產生的一些瑕疵負責嗎?你認為呢?我想政策是因應時勢來做一些"},{"start":3197.774,"end":3223.224,"text":"推出那當然也要因應時事來做一些調整或精進這都是需要的是部長財政部所屬供股行庫以經營不動場這個貸放獲利那金融業的這個營業稅稅收啊也歸財政部來課徵那我請問部長央行楊總裁有沒有對財政部進行道德勸說你認為有沒有"},{"start":3225.491,"end":3232.82,"text":"他對財政部不是用我們不是我們彼此之間是都是政府團隊的議員大家彼此都應該要合作"},{"start":3233.874,"end":3259.035,"text":"所以說在這個整個管制政策執行和公股行庫獲利以稅收考量下部長你認為能夠找得到平衡點嗎當然公股行庫不管做在金融業務上面都必須要遵守央行、金管會以及銀行公會所有的規範這是一定要做的部長114年度稅客收入編列2.77兆元創歷史的新高"},{"start":3262.077,"end":3291.122,"text":"而且比113年度預算成長19.88%那我請問部長明年稅客收入的預算數字是不是一定能夠反映在明年整個經濟成長稅率上面成長率上面我們在編稅客收入的時候是有各種因素在討論那經濟成長是其中的一個參考因子當然還有其他稅制的調整以及各個稅務它的一個特性來做編列的"},{"start":3291.861,"end":3306.509,"text":"換句話說若實在經濟成長上是不是代表明年景氣應該比今年會更好其實是財政部有沒有預估過明年第一季到第四季的整個景氣狀況"},{"start":3309.371,"end":3326.103,"text":"根據主計總署的一個預算的推估明年的經濟成長率是3.26%這個是我們要參考的一數那至於明年的一個經濟我想委員你也很清楚國際政經情勢的變化是很快所以"},{"start":3326.476,"end":3326.536,"text":"請吳秉立委員質詢"},{"start":3363.925,"end":3366.907,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部莊部長莊部長來委員好部長這個這個11月5號美國總統大選嘛那現在是確定是川普當選那川普是共和黨的總統他除了"},{"start":3388.698,"end":3409.49,"text":"當選總統之外共和黨在參眾兩院應該也都取得這個多數了所以這一次的選舉就以西方的媒體來講還是說向右轉是相當明顯的就是說以前的極端左派的這些政策可能都是會受到一些大幅的修正包括能源政策像川普現在"},{"start":3415.276,"end":3426.768,"text":"選舉的時候就公開講說要讓美國的能源可以再開採不然美國就把頁岩油跟天然氣的開採都停掉了那這個世界大多數都是預測說這樣子油價會下跌"},{"start":3430.97,"end":3448.727,"text":"另外一點就是他也要急得要結束這個地緣衝突所以地緣衝突下降低的或是停止的可能性都是有的這一些當然是一些外部的環境但是他的政策裡面其實有一部分很重要的就是供應鏈的重組"},{"start":3449.946,"end":3477.838,"text":"因為他要把製造業再拉回美國所以他不是只有對台灣啦對全世界基本上他都是要加關稅10到20%那當然這個10到20%的最主要的目的就是說要讓製造業重回美國去生產那增加美國的就業機會那這一點不知道你的看法怎麼樣這一點是比我們台灣可以學習的接近因為"},{"start":3479.491,"end":3508.428,"text":"在小英總統上台的2016年開始我們就推動回台投資計畫其實某一個角度來講也是要讓製造業重回台灣但是要重回台灣製造業重回台灣你要讓台灣有這樣子的環境跟基礎所以當時說啊這個水、電、土地、人才等等這些問題都通通要解決所以也是上一次我跟您請教的"},{"start":3509.827,"end":3526.591,"text":"我們的政策如果要一致的時候是要不要考慮這一些電商低值劣等的商品2000元以下免關稅甚至免其他的稅金源源不斷的大量進來那一天我記得說一年是5500萬件嘛那5500萬件裡面的4000多萬件八成是2000塊以下那就是有4000多萬件的商品"},{"start":3540.931,"end":3558.207,"text":"對臺灣的製造業不公平因為臺灣的製造業在這邊製造他要貨物稅他要營業稅還要一大堆的稅金這一些免稅進來臺灣的反而他的條件比在臺灣做製造業還要優惠"},{"start":3561.302,"end":3578.315,"text":"這個樣子怎麼妥當呢所以這個當然不是說馬上要改變因為你有一大堆說什麼我們跟著國際走全球化現在已經在改變了我們的觀念要先改變現在是世界供應鏈重組喔是民主供應鏈川普要排除"},{"start":3583.078,"end":3595.163,"text":"這一些流氓國家的製造業在世界上跟他貿易捏所以他對中國要課60%的關稅60%的關稅所有的學者都講課了60%的關稅其實就是停止跟你交易啦否則的話你怎麼受得了那你的東西沒有競爭力啊"},{"start":3603.84,"end":3610.583,"text":"臺灣過去因為被中國打壓所以很多國際之間區域的貿易組織我們是沒有辦法參加的當然亞的RCEP我們也沒辦法參加但是這些區域組織裡面的國家之間的國際貿易"},{"start":3623.67,"end":3650.16,"text":"他基本上稅比圈外的要低嘛所以我們台灣假設為什麼會有那麼多台商過去得跑去中國得跑去東南亞就我如果要做東南亞生意我在越南製造我在印尼製造我在這個圈子裡面的關稅是很低的但是我如果是台灣製造我要賣過去我的關稅比人家高啊所以我們自己要想說那我們如果營造這樣的環境"},{"start":3652.151,"end":3671.53,"text":"所以現在的觀念是要注意是民主供應鏈重整那在這個供應鏈重整的過程中臺灣會有一些機會那當然也會有一些風險那我舉一個我們這個機會裡面我們已經在做而且急需要爭取的就是這個避免臺美之間的雙重剋稅的這個推動"},{"start":3675.407,"end":3689.971,"text":"因為現在川普也要製造製造也要重回美國他也歡迎全世界其他國家的資金到美國投資啊那以這個為理由我們臺灣的資金到美國投資結果你美國要給我剋稅我臺灣自己也要剋稅那是雙重剋稅美國的財政部在10月29號有發布說雙方的財政部將於近期之內"},{"start":3699.793,"end":3710.519,"text":"要對於臺美租稅協定相關的展開討論11月29到現在也半個多月了他說馬上就要進行開始進行了嗎"},{"start":3713.208,"end":3717.15,"text":"根委員報告這個部分已經我們雙方都已經在聯繫然後敲日期也會會如期的舉行會進行討論對因為這個政策的轉變剛好是給我們一個機會如果他要吸引台灣的資金到美國去投資的話讓美國的製造業重新站穩腳跟的話他當然希望我們台灣當然希望說我們不要有這個雙重租稅的這個"},{"start":3738.439,"end":3738.559,"text":"僅詢答．11月2"},{"start":3757.807,"end":3758.367,"text":"臺灣的這個晶片這一些的貿易"},{"start":3787.867,"end":3811.566,"text":"就是很重要的地方就是注意不能被中國變成用第三者來購買或是被他作為貿易轉口變成被他洗產地如果有這兩個狀況的話臺灣可能都會遭到美國很重大的打擊喔因為這個是未來川普政府會非常嚴肅認真面對的事情這個不知道你同不同意喔"},{"start":3812.81,"end":3830.66,"text":"委員說得很適當外界的情勢變化的時候我們也應該要順勢推出相關的一些政策比如說川普在第一任的時候他的相關的關稅政策以及供應鏈的重組的一個變化所以台灣就順勢推出了投資台灣三大方案所以廠商在台擴大投資"},{"start":3831.957,"end":3854.871,"text":"然後再加上COVID的時候我們的一些遠距的一個商機興起以及AI的新興應用的科技所以整個讓我們的經濟事實上比亞洲其他國家成長來得好也就是我們那個契機推出了這個方案那當然委員剛剛提到他新上任以後的關稅政策財政政策甚至移民政策等等的一個變化我們臺灣要怎麼樣的因應包括您提說的低價免稅這個要不要檢討討論的事這一點"},{"start":3858.873,"end":3868.698,"text":"當然是我的建議我的看法但是如果我這個看法值得參考的話我希望你在行政院內部的會議溝通的時候提出有民意代表是這樣主張的"},{"start":3869.793,"end":3896.107,"text":"因為美國也要針對這一塊啊這個中國對美國的這個低價的這個電商的包裹從1億4千萬增加到10億欸10億份所以美國現在財政部美國的海關也在針對這個東西在提出檢討那當然每一個國家的這個免稅的額度不一樣但是我們不能讓台灣的製造業就輸在起跑點上"},{"start":3896.903,"end":3897.083,"text":"國有財產署委員長"},{"start":3915.58,"end":3942.641,"text":"今年度就去年省今年的預算嘛是那時候的稅入113年稅入您的編列是247億是那明年度變成202億短少了45億什麼原因啊報告委員大家也知道因為現在政府在推動社會住宅那國產署已經提供了86公頃而且還準備了134公頃的土地要作為社會住宅"},{"start":3943.341,"end":3969.253,"text":"以往這些土地我們都是拿來作為招標設定地上錢或標租但是以社會住宅優先的情況之下我必須要犧牲這些稅入的來源是好那這樣了解那雖然是少了因為我看那個比例相當大所以來跟你請教那如果是這樣的政策我們支持尤其在土地售價收入的部分我們會減了很多好謝謝你那加油好謝謝"},{"start":3970.754,"end":3973.996,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝吳秉瑞來繼續來賴世保賴委員來謝謝主席即刻先進有請財政部的莊部長莊部長委員好部長好齁這個"},{"start":3999.861,"end":4022.803,"text":"明年的金融營業稅是不是確定不會再撥入那個RTC的準備金呢?是不是確定?對,因為那個營業稅本已經到今年底落日,所以不會進入這個金融業特別準備金。就是金管會那邊期待的也落空了。那簡單的問題你就快速回答好了。"},{"start":4024.285,"end":4038.036,"text":"娛樂稅、印花稅其實大家滿多的爭議大家不同的角度不同的看法這個你們說現在娛樂稅要把它減半最高減半但是授權地方政府對吧"},{"start":4039.505,"end":4068.252,"text":"我們按照現在課政娛樂稅所訂的各個項目的有一個上限我們不一定是減半就有往下調有些項目有調大部分有調部分沒有調那是交給地方政府嗎對本來也是讓地方政府去訂稅那原來是訂的是上限我就問你一個問題你一直在講說地方稅不能廢啊印方稅什麼等等的那要不要乾脆這個稅就通通交給地方政府他們自己訂"},{"start":4069.505,"end":4079.74,"text":"在稅法通責裡面就訂這個．委員上次也提議過但是我們在開會的時候各地方政府都不希望這樣子"},{"start":4081.264,"end":4083.945,"text":"現在看到川普上來以後加密貨幣比特幣屏幕在漲國內都有很多人賺到錢我們就恭喜了"},{"start":4107.993,"end":4115.779,"text":"課稅問題啊加密貨幣的課稅問題五區五區國稅局要不要一起來講一下你們各區有沒有開始課這個稅有沒有"},{"start":4122.408,"end":4136.265,"text":"國稅局局長來先請臺北國目前就是有跟我們金管會這邊登記的總共26家那他們都有來辦稅籍登記也有繳納營業稅跟營所稅"},{"start":4139.517,"end":4139.897,"text":"已經課了多少?"},{"start":4157.799,"end":4159.602,"text":"有嗎?個人有嗎?"},{"start":4159.602,"end":4165.25,"text":"你剛才說是銀索稅是那個交易所,是那個交易所,那個場合,個人比如說我去買了賣了,你有沒有扣我稅?"},{"start":4165.25,"end":4165.871,"text":"那個現在我..."},{"start":4173.923,"end":4187.171,"text":"我們現在指的是那個那些營業的部分對嘛營業的部分你沒有講個人嘛我現在問你是個人就是我去那個營業交易場所那我賺了錢我要不要繳稅"},{"start":4191.684,"end":4203.463,"text":"個人的部分目前我是沒有統計資料個人沒有交稅?應該是部長啊還有或者是署長要回答目前對這一塊是沒有交稅的"},{"start":4204.911,"end":4213.617,"text":"報告委員我們現在稅法的規定是這樣就是加密貨幣現在是因為它不是貨幣嘛所以它是數位化資產數位化資產買賣你聽我把這個念完根據所得稅法第14條第1項第7類的課徵還有課稅的"},{"start":4227.506,"end":4231.689,"text":"因為我們所得稅基本上是要自行申報那我們會加強查核"},{"start":4246.819,"end":4262.365,"text":"因為現在是金管會那邊他要立專法,我們會整個配,但是我們現在也沒什麼東西,因為原則是他自己申報,如果他有短路報,我們要有一個管道。當然沒有,你不要扣稅,跟你申報,我們給你主動去繳稅,現在因為你沒有扣,你無所作為啊。"},{"start":4266.167,"end":4281.959,"text":"我們估計還是有一些場合的工具可以運用的。你們要只針對那個場合,交易的場合課銀索稅,沒有對那個個人交易的賺的錢課稅,或者是說請教部長有沒有可能"},{"start":4284.019,"end":4293.345,"text":"因為我們沒有課那個資本利得稅有沒有可能也就是課一筆個人的交易稅了事這所得稅太難了還是這個要課所得稅來來請教"},{"start":4296.747,"end":4321.226,"text":"是跟委員報告我想既然第一個已經定性上他不是貨幣而是一個虛擬的資產是一個資產那他的交易他應該要課徵相關的貨意應該要課徵所得稅那接下來就是我們要怎麼樣去查核去做查核的部分那我想這個部分我們再來做一個研議好了什麼時候可以對於加密貨幣的個人"},{"start":4325.407,"end":4333.485,"text":"或者是法人他們的獲利、課稅的整個辦法什麼時候可以出來?這個部分是不是給我們時間?三個月可以嗎?"},{"start":4336.421,"end":4360.928,"text":"3個月可以嗎?3個月可以嗎?我跟委員報告其實現在我們有從平台不知道方便講就是說我們有從其他的資料來源去查他的數位化商品交易的情形我們有目前有在查沒有我現在就問你啦3個月內可不可以提出一個加密貨幣的買賣所得課稅的一個辦法好那我們來研理"},{"start":4363.228,"end":4385.761,"text":"3個月好不好3個月3個月那再來一個也是小的問題那個5屆國稅局長可以請回菲律賓已經開徵了12%數位服務稅針對Amazon、Netflix、Disney以及Google的母公司Alphabet臺灣這部分有沒有在考慮數位稅這個部分我們是不是請署長來做說明謝謝"},{"start":4393.107,"end":4414.88,"text":"報告委員這所謂數位服務稅其實在OECD在過去很多歐盟國家有課後來他們就定位說在現在所謂Peter 1跟Peter 2出來之後希望各國不要再繼續課數位服務稅那台灣一直都不是課服務稅台灣課的是所得稅那我們所得稅它現在有所謂射算課稅的概念"},{"start":4415.2,"end":4429.52,"text":"其實原則上誠實申報但如果你沒有就核實申報我應該講核實申報就賺多少報多少但如果你沒有辦法舉證我們是用射算所得來課稅那換算的結果其實就等於收入的某一個百分比來課稅"},{"start":4430.421,"end":4456.088,"text":"那個百分比是多少?大概我們現在是大概售算的利潤率大概百分之三十左右百分之三十的多少?然後那個稅率大概我如果講那個營運事業的話大概就百分之二十所以大概就百分之六是百分之六是吧?對對對百分之六對因為菲律賓他刻的一個mindset他中心思想是說我刻了又扶持我相關的比較"},{"start":4457.168,"end":4483.661,"text":"需要扶持的這些產業他是這樣的一個概念其他國家其實也都開始在課了你們去研究一下好我們再看下一個題目這個我想請教一下川普對全球課高關稅這個我們現在因應怎麼樣他給我們課10%以上目前來講我們是大概大概3%左右對台灣的關稅他如果課我們大家都保護主義那我們也課他可不可以"},{"start":4484.523,"end":4487.137,"text":"美國美國進入台灣的我沒課稅"},{"start":4489.489,"end":4514.58,"text":"對於川普他在選舉期間所提的相關的一些政見那最後怎麼去到他就任以後什麼時間會去落實或者落實的一個程度其實我們認為這個部分還是需要觀察以及怎麼樣的一個應對那我想我們都會做一些可以不可以講說如果美國真的對我們的到美國去的產品課高關稅"},{"start":4516.761,"end":4535.614,"text":"部長聽好了,我們不排除我們對美國課高關稅有沒有可能?這計畫可以成立嗎?我講我科技老,講不排除可以嗎?關稅基本上因為我們是WTO的會員國所以我們會按照我們當時在入會的時候的一些承諾的關稅稅率來課徵"},{"start":4538.789,"end":4546.348,"text":"所以你的意思是美國即便課我們高關稅我們也不敢做相對的回應喔是這個意思喔"},{"start":4553.689,"end":4577.046,"text":"美國他是總統依照他的行政命令所刻的以比如說是國家安全法相關的法令去做的加徵關稅啦他是一種加徵的一個概念跟那個原本稅率的提高兩個概念是不太一樣的那你沒有回答問題那我們的因應呢部長我們的因應就沒有因應根據WTO就這樣而已是吧"},{"start":4578.988,"end":4587.797,"text":"好不好這個時間有限我再請問你我記得去年的時候我問了部長你在這裡這在這裡同一個地方同一個問題"},{"start":4589.8,"end":4608.595,"text":"臺美從務課稅大概今年6月可以OK了結果現在已經是11月了還沒OK喔我可不可以同樣的問題你同樣的回答可不可以說我可不可以樂觀的預估只要川普上台以後大概明年的3月可以"},{"start":4610.836,"end":4630.808,"text":"我講這個部分還沒有辦法做這樣的一個預估為什麼因為去年是因為一月份的時候眾議院已經先通過到參議院但參議院後來因為是包括法案的關係因為其中另外一個法案有一些爭議所以以至於我們這個在裡面接下來就碰到美國的大選所以整個是停滯在參議院"},{"start":4631.708,"end":4648.173,"text":"那至於接下來我們也跟委員報告10月29號美國財政部已經發表聲明就是說會跟臺灣來做一個臺美ADTA的一個進一步的討論展開我們可以樂觀的預估沒有時間到了樂觀的預估明年第一季可以嗎我想這個時間上我沒有辦法預估因為我們和外交部以及那個數美代表處會合作一起來推動是"},{"start":4657.556,"end":4673.746,"text":"這個你對自己這麼沒有信心喔,這個票票一次不敢再講了吼,嚇到啦吼。我們看,我們看,這個,針對要用第7波的信用管制打草房,會不會影響房地合一的稅收?"},{"start":4675.674,"end":4700.106,"text":"房地合一的稅收當然會影響啊那要看那個移轉動數移轉動數已經價格的差距啦對我們就會我關心的是長照基金喔它的來源750億用途879億入不敷出現在第7波的新能管制打下來房地合一的稅收絕對影響只是影響多少你不知道啊"},{"start":4701.65,"end":4702.992,"text":"議員提出這個提問我們當然是來兩個禮拜啊那可以吧"},{"start":4720.765,"end":4720.885,"text":"提出來﹖"},{"start":4736.757,"end":4757.332,"text":"這一次的新融管制因為如果沒有第8波就是最後一波了對皇帝合一會有影響但是影響到多少?影響到最後是長照激起的創意我們來收集資料以後做一個演繹事謝謝那就是一個月後給那個賴司法委員這份資料謝謝謝謝司法委員接著請郭國文委員諮詢"},{"start":4771.352,"end":4775.237,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請莊部長好 莊部長請委員好部長好 部長昨天那個海關博物館開幕嘛 對不對"},{"start":4787.116,"end":4806.502,"text":"那1996年的我們的海關的這個辦公室所成立之後呢海關博物館算是一個教育館那基本上也是對於整個海關的歷史的重視但相對呢你對海關歷史的重視呢可是一樣是關務署對歷史建築卻感覺上啊相當的漠視為什麼"},{"start":4808.523,"end":4830.129,"text":"本席在10年的時候就已經去會堪考察過的北投育成中心的部分這是在1913年的時候以照目前為止是應該是非常久具有歷史如果我沒有記錯應該是最久的一個早期日治時期的一個溫泉招待所結果任由他方會"},{"start":4831.149,"end":4834.39,"text":"臺北市政府財政部有承接過這個財政部所屬的文化資產、文化身份的歷史建築嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":4862.437,"end":4876.134,"text":"臺北市有的時候因為他是文化主管機關有的時候他會移撥我們的移撥也是修復好之後才會移撥啦部長你不要做夢了啦沒有一個地方是很會花這種錢第二個"},{"start":4877.435,"end":4892.376,"text":"我想要問你的是說他有承諾具體的白紙黑字的承諾書嗎?有正式來文的承諾書為什麼本席在詢問的時候你沒有提出來?你馬上告訴我啊!"},{"start":4893.337,"end":4920.826,"text":"你有辦法在明年1月的時候期末報告之後就順利移轉然後臺北市政府會願意花一億多元的部分的預算來修復我們北投育成中心這個部分我們關務你承諾本席你承諾本席跟委員報告關務署在11月7號的時候也拜會了臺北市的文化局我不管你那個流程啊你告訴我結果啦好那是不是我們關務署你去拜會的情形跟委員報告一下結果怎麼樣請說署長彭署長"},{"start":4922.226,"end":4942.904,"text":"報告委員那臺北市政府現在還是維持原來的一個承諾原來的承諾你要北撞奧伊伊啊不要到時候你又是找不到帳啊你到時候又重新改一個計畫又3年到5年明明已經100多年的建築物任由其方會又要任由已經本席到現在已經3年到4年4年後又3年又4年你要等到他150歲200歲才有打算修復他嗎"},{"start":4946.289,"end":4971.584,"text":"所以報告委員所以我們115年如果這個移波沒有順利完成我們115年就會編列這個概算編列什麼預算那你如果明年可以編列預算你為什麼不早點編列預算就很奇怪啦報告委員因為當時跟臺北市政府文化局這邊談所以我們有編1億3跟1億4的這個你具體的承諾給我你現在都是修復計畫費用而已啦你如果沒有你要不要自己編部長"},{"start":4972.764,"end":4999.689,"text":"委員這樣子齁因為11月7號也去拜會臺北市那我想這個後續我們會持續的我覺得我們會部裡面也會再跟那個臺北市政府請他們一定按照原來的程度我現在問你是臺北政府如果沒有答應你要不要自己編啊你聽不懂喔要問幾次自己編啊如果說他們好你要馬上給我編啊所有文化資產當中最多的財政部所屬的這個機關公股銀行包括國有財產署是文資大戶欸"},{"start":5001.189,"end":5018.448,"text":"你有沒有做一個總體的整理單單國產署就344個位置單單那個煙酒公司、台銀、核庫等等隨便一個房舍都具有高度的歷史價值但是你們沒有整體的去保存"},{"start":5019.289,"end":5046.146,"text":"都是零星片段個案處理啊部長你們承諾本席做個整體的規劃通常的檢討我們部裡面都有去彙整各機關或機構所管的那個歷史建築歷史建築和補給也會出示他們要去做按照文資法的規定來做後續修復跟利用我不是想要你調查我本席要你保存可不可以好把它視為財政部的資產之一嘛好第二個我要問一下"},{"start":5047.202,"end":5072.04,"text":"本席問過本席看到你們常常在講什麼智慧海關還有一些那個通關的便捷性什麼這一個數位海關搞了老半天人資色彩還是很多同樣一個樣品有的在A公司從B公司進了同樣的貨可是到不同的海關卻有不同的稅率"},{"start":5074.346,"end":5075.568,"text":"這部分對於稅則編號的見解不一樣的部分"},{"start":5085.458,"end":5085.638,"text":"一國好幾次"},{"start":5111.708,"end":5113.73,"text":"那有的要退稅一個月、一個半月"},{"start":5132.124,"end":5145.476,"text":"財政部的退稅作業為什麼一定要有的在電腦上可以執行有的一定要書面一定要零貴部長這是不是都你管的為什麼退稅有的要拉到一兩個月有的就只有五天"},{"start":5146.533,"end":5168.721,"text":"怎麼差那麼多當然應該要更改進要更改進對啊你上次也這麼阿沙尼跟回答本席阿應該改進阿你整個報稅要變節化退稅應該變節化結果呢已經事隔快要一年了你的阿沙尼已經阿沙尼了一年了結果呢還是一樣牛步化沒有變節化做何解釋這個部分我們再回去"},{"start":5172.517,"end":5172.677,"text":"臺北國稅局長"},{"start":5188.371,"end":5189.372,"text":"本期還有一件齁"},{"start":5206.26,"end":5227.167,"text":"一直放在心裡你們沒有辦法說服本席的部分就是TISA的部分你們對TISA的部分就是維持生活所得支出可以扣除是從所得稅的角度來看本席是說呢你如果說從一個好的一個那個對有利於人民的政策的這個TISA"},{"start":5228.147,"end":5249.205,"text":"為什麼人家NISA可以做第一代做到第二代可以讓整個資產的配置更加的理性化而我們呢在稅制上的優惠沒有辦法除了所得稅之外以差的作稅把這一個不是鼓勵投資是鼓勵投資代替儲蓄的這個可能性把他拉高所有的工具都在你們手上"},{"start":5250.826,"end":5265.793,"text":"阿這個大家告訴我有什麼好處我就舉一個嘛現在說在證券市場當中對於租稅優惠可以幫助整個證券市場包括人民理財的部分呢其實外乎有三種一個是NISA一個是"},{"start":5269.376,"end":5285.351,"text":"臺灣三個投資工具就是少了人家兩個連ETF的部分的稅率也是1%而已啊他還是有優惠啊啊這種情況底下這麼好的方式為什麼我現在搞不清楚財政部想了這麼久反抗了這麼久沒有找出一個替代方案部長"},{"start":5287.35,"end":5305.608,"text":"願聞高見跟委員報告有關TISA部分的租稅優惠我們和金管會其實都一直在持續的一些溝通中金管會找出一個減免手續會的方式解決不了問題我們也把各個國家在類似這樣TISA或NISA這樣的一個租稅優惠做了一個表列然後去做相互的比較"},{"start":5306.289,"end":5331.05,"text":"其實我們臺灣現在對於這樣的一個經營的租稅的優惠其實優於其他各國﹖所以你要找其他的可能性不是從所得稅的角度而已嘛本席剛剛就跟你講過本席剛剛有跟你講過嘛你現在所謂的維持生活基本支出如果按照這個原則現在是負利率的情況底下他也沒有辦法維持基本生活支出啊那所有國人的金融資產的占比當中即便"},{"start":5336.375,"end":5349.788,"text":"臺灣的證券市場算是正面的長期投資是好的情況底下你為何不讓國有這個機會呢透過租稅工具的方式呢部長請你回去再思考一下可不可以最後我再用一個短暫的時間"},{"start":5351.289,"end":5376.5,"text":"最新的消息是造源計劃造源計劃是在本席要求國會會建立一個平台溝通結果溝通的結果呢新所謂的建立一個建構一個平台結果還是推回來給財政部處理推回來給財政部處理的這個公建計劃也好或者是物流倉儲也好捷運也好我覺得這個目前設定都很好的標的那我要問你一下你這個平台建置了沒有財政部"},{"start":5378.022,"end":5403.188,"text":"將來會是我們在114年開始我們就會有一個促餐專案辦公室然後有一個平台專案辦公室專案辦公室然後也會有一個院級的跨部會的一個促餐推動的一個平台就是你們處理當然什麼時候完成在財政部這邊我們明年就開始了明年就開始明年就開始那院的什麼時候院級其實現在已經都在一直密集的在討論當中了院的只是會議平台而已啦就我知道是這樣子啦"},{"start":5404.208,"end":5412.593,"text":"對 行政院還有財政部一直在開會總共保險基金還有3.27億我跟你講 外界這樣說只要保險基金的利率有3.5%就可以值得投資我說實在從實務上不只3%實務上我就理解至少要5%"},{"start":5420.317,"end":5447.076,"text":"所以你現在透過這個出餐的方式的時候你還要去統合一個可能性就是說呢他有沒有可能把這一個出餐的這個標的當中再透過組合性的投資像REITS的部分來combine在一起的可能性對啊這就是金管會一起加入這一個平台的主要的目的正常創造出來比較相對高的利率所得才能吸引更多基金投入這個公建跟捷運開發"},{"start":5448.217,"end":5448.597,"text":"謝謝國委員的質詢下一位請賴會員委員質詢請"},{"start":5477.696,"end":5483.011,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們的財政部莊部長還有我們負稅署宋署長兩位長官請"},{"start":5489.977,"end":5516.759,"text":"委員好,是部長早安,部長今天要跟你討論就是明年賦稅署的那個稅出的一個預算其中統一花票的一個中獎的清澈的資料庫跟相關的應用系統的維護計畫這個是1億多可是統一花票給獎跟推行那個經費我們編了188億那統一花票的一個獎金的制度"},{"start":5517.796,"end":5518.437,"text":"每年統一花票大概會花出多少獎金?你知道嗎?"},{"start":5538.479,"end":5567.598,"text":"我們統一發票的給獎最主要是按照營業稅法裡面的按營業稅的3%來編列那如果說在前面幾期的時候有些沒有來對獎金額有剩的話我們也會在年底的下半年的時候增加發的主數那你這個188億的話的3%大概是多少是他的獎金95%以上都是做獎金使用"},{"start":5568.298,"end":5569.22,"text":"195億的95%是用來做你的獎金對不對?對"},{"start":5583.455,"end":5611.023,"text":"那部長我再請教你在那個上個月你剛辦完雲端的花票那個花票推廣活動的一個這個記者會成果記者會那顯然你對你自己的一個推動你是滿意的是不是這樣子呢跟我們一直往前在推進那雲端發票站電子發票的比數已經60%了我們還應該還要再繼續往前推進希望大家都能夠把"},{"start":5611.55,"end":5613.891,"text":"臺北國稅局總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、高雄國稅局及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度"},{"start":5634.241,"end":5639.102,"text":"臺北國稅局總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產"},{"start":5665.218,"end":5683.363,"text":"我想謝謝委員的鼓勵鼓勵也希望我們能夠更大的一個推進因為時間那麼長前面可能很快到後面就成為一個瓶頸就會比較緩慢所以這個部分我們還是會運用各種場合第一個讓民眾更容易去接近它更容易使用所以我們不管在那個APP上"},{"start":5683.883,"end":5683.903,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":5708.677,"end":5708.717,"text":"僅詢答．11月2"},{"start":5734.328,"end":5756.183,"text":"這份你要領了要拿紙本啦就是這一樣的一個花票你如果中了獎了以後中了獎以後你還要再拿紙本那如果你忘記拿紙本的話還是你的油墨浮掉了就不能領獎囉那你的電子化的意義在哪裡部長你知道這樣的這個事情嗎"},{"start":5757.203,"end":5778.537,"text":"跟委員報告我們不能講說我們已經滿意我們認為所有事情都應該要往前走那至於這個我知道這個掃描如果像這樣的一個電子花票你上了APP以後囉那你還是要帶著紙本才可以來領獎你們知不知道嗎負稅署署長部長你知道嗎請問你們知道嗎"},{"start":5780.598,"end":5809.537,"text":"我報告委員齁像他如果這個我們叫電子發票證明連是紙本的對不對對他最主要是欠缺了一個載具就是我們講的譬如說手機條碼載具沒有他的手機條碼載具他這個就會儲存上雲端那你這個怎麼叫電子化呢那大家還要拿紙本才可以去得獎大家得獎已經非常高興了結果你告訴人家說你還要再拿紙本來那這個是電子化的電子發票嗎"},{"start":5811.819,"end":5833.895,"text":"主席,您顯然已經看到這個問題了。如何改善呢?我跟委員報告,因為它如果變成一般的紙本的時候,就變成誰拿有那個紙本,就像你有對獎的資格一樣。所以我們一定要看到那個原來的紙本,否則今天如果有人,像之前發生過一些詐騙。所以你必須要在電子的那個系統裡頭,"},{"start":5835.456,"end":5835.676,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5853.733,"end":5869.48,"text":"來做報告。好,顯然是你已經是造成擾民了,況且這個實在是一個笑話,完全都沒有電子化。那再來這一個,部長,傳統資本的花票,傳統的資本的花票,它只能用"},{"start":5871.608,"end":5876.471,"text":"在財政部前面推動電子花票,什麼時候淘汰這種紙本花票?"},{"start":5888.574,"end":5906.24,"text":"總是有一個時辰吧,什麼時候淘汰勒?要營業人去換,那這個整個部分我想委員都是從那個變名的一個方角度來思考,那您剛剛所提的幾項就是說既然已經掃描QR Code進去,為什麼去對講的時候還要拿這個"},{"start":5907.22,"end":5910.024,"text":"委員會跟委員在座報告那委員的建議我們也來做一個精進的思考好不好"},{"start":5921.897,"end":5939.674,"text":"市長這個是辯名的角色是從辯名的角度去看顯然是造成大家很大的一個困擾所以我們還喊的那麼大聲就是說這個電子化這個顯然是少了哪一段我們沒有銜接上來那接著"},{"start":5940.154,"end":5955.901,"text":"部長我再請教你2024年11月份的全國賦稅收入的初步的一個統計我們到11月份我們的時增金額我們已經達到3.3兆了叫同期增加了2728億那達成累積到那個就是我們整體的一個分配算數裡頭116.2"},{"start":5968.608,"end":5994.148,"text":"這裏頭我們特別看到這一張圖裏面尤其是證交稅它佔了822億那其他的營所、中所還有營業稅這樣子讓不動動加起來也超過了800億那顯然從我們這個稅別的一個變化裏頭我們其實要講到的就是說今年的經濟其實非常的好那明年呢"},{"start":5995.924,"end":6009.411,"text":"明年的經濟成長率根據主計總署的估測是3.26%所以說明年是會比較差的我們預期他是稅收會比較少的"},{"start":6012.396,"end":6035.731,"text":"明年的我們的預算數是兩兆七千多還是比今年的預算數成長了近百分之二十大概百分之十九稅收的部分成長百分之十九點九對所以你是認為就是說今年前年的經濟成長率我們估值上修是4.03那看起來是今年是非常好的可是明年你們的預估才是3.15%"},{"start":6037.452,"end":6043.38,"text":"那我們的經濟成長力是不是會稍微下降呢?我們從那個臺經院這個最新的一個經濟預測裡頭我們從這一張報表裡頭來看的話部長應該是這一個數字是非常準確的有沒有問題?沒有問題嗎?"},{"start":6055.756,"end":6074.609,"text":"您這邊有關包含民間消費的年增率,這個會在我們的營業稅裡面去出現嗎?所以今年經濟成長力它能破4,那明年你只能破3,那我們可以請明年的這個整個經濟成長力它是沒有辦法比今年來得好,是不是這樣子呢?"},{"start":6075.79,"end":6101.765,"text":"跟委員報告我們在稅收估測上經濟成長率是一個參考因素但除了經濟成長率還有其他的因素要一併考量當然當然所以那我們如果就是在用全球的經貿情勢的一個不確定性的話這個隨著這個川普的一個當選美國總統的話那事實上這個不確定性就更大囉當然有他的不確定性存在是的"},{"start":6102.005,"end":6127.142,"text":"是 這個其實大家都緊張了你看這個川普總統當選了以後他最主要的一個經貿的一個政見其實對中國是非常不友善的那對我們台灣其實我們也是高度的在警示那不管他的移民政策、他的財政政策、他的貿易政策其實我們可以非常清楚看到了中國近20年的經濟成長力現在中國的經濟是非常慘的"},{"start":6131.325,"end":6149.007,"text":"那如果讓川普再這樣子前面性的跟他對幹的話我相信我相信這個狀況中國的經濟狀況會是更不理想的不曉得部長你的看法是怎麼樣是委員您說的然後很適然後事實上算是委員也安排了一個專題報告在上週"},{"start":6150.769,"end":6152.51,"text":"一月二十就任以後實際落實的一個時間點以及他的程度跟規模會是怎樣然後會造成什麼樣的一個衝擊其實大家都在密切的觀察"},{"start":6180.649,"end":6204.555,"text":"那所以說今年的稅收的時增數那預期是會比去年預估的那個預算數多多少就像你剛剛提到的明年的經濟成長率預估只剩下3出頭財政部認為未來我們還可以像這幾年收到了這麼多的稅嗎顯然是不可能的所以本席在這裡主張今年的稅收時增比"},{"start":6205.015,"end":6219.445,"text":"預算多的部分絕對要留到明年的編列預算還有刺激經濟的一個預算不能不能像某些在野黨的委員主張現在就花掉了那明年該怎麼辦﹖是認同委員應該部長做對對對因為我們應該把預算時增數超過預算數的部分第一個減少舉債增加還債然後納入稅計剩餘作為以後的"},{"start":6228.591,"end":6228.911,"text":"黃宏威委員質詢"},{"start":6257.474,"end":6258.175,"text":"昨天有看棒球嗎?"},{"start":6276.849,"end":6290.766,"text":"我想這兩天全國大家都在封棒球那因為中華隊打出非常好的成績但另外一方面事實上也開始有一些討論就是像棒球的競技比賽"},{"start":6291.527,"end":6292.388,"text":"臺北市的部分包含一些藝文團體還有一些地方的民意代表"},{"start":6313.18,"end":6319.472,"text":"就開始一直有一個聲音說那臺北市是不是應該取消娛樂稅免徵娛樂稅主要是針對包含演唱會包含競技比賽那"},{"start":6326.29,"end":6349.58,"text":"娛樂稅的稅法事實上現在也在我們立法院要再審查那我想請問一下在我們財政部提出娛樂稅法之前娛樂稅條例之前請問一下有沒有召集地方縣市政府來討論過他們希望是由中央來做主導還是要授權地方來免徵這些相關的娛樂稅呢"},{"start":6352.611,"end":6377.608,"text":"委員報告,這個有關娛樂稅這個議題其實財政部不止一次的邀集地方政府來開會那基本上第一個共識他們地方政府都不贊成廢止這個娛樂稅條例因為他們認為這對他們來說還是重要一個財源尤其在縣市裡面的鄉鎮他收起的就歸這個鄉鎮那他們同意,他們會同意說由中央授權地方來廢除嗎"},{"start":6379.95,"end":6400.223,"text":"免徵不能被阻我們對第一個在娛樂稅的項目裡面我們也做了一個檢討第二個就是對於我們因為現在娛樂稅的有關稅率是訂上限那這個上限我們也了解地方政府其實都沒有用到這麼高的一個限度所以呢我們就把上限往下降讓他們可以在裡面可以自行訂定因為現在本來就是訂個上限讓他們在裡面去訂定"},{"start":6403.365,"end":6407.148,"text":"我可以跟你說因為最近呢我們其實我們國民黨團去拜訪了非常多的縣市很多縣市首長事實上都反映對於熱稅其實他們並不希望由中央來授權地方為什麼呢因為你想想看我認為當我們這個稅法一通過之後可能第一個作為領頭羊的就是臺北市"},{"start":6429.187,"end":6434.172,"text":"因為臺北市我剛講臺北市有大巨蛋經濟所以呢臺北市非常有可能做相關包含球賽還有這個演唱會的娛樂稅的免徵但是其他的縣市政府未必他們有這樣的能力所以很多縣市政府給我的反應是什麼呢說第一個當然娛樂稅是地方的稅源"},{"start":6452.791,"end":6456.673,"text":"2 他們認為應該由中央來統籌來決定因為這種好人也好壞人也好你不要丟給地方縣市首長來做嘛比如說我隔壁縣市他免徵了免徵這個將會到臺北市唱這個演唱會可以免徵娛樂稅啊對不起到我新北市或桃園市我就要科娛樂稅那大家壓力通通來啦對不對"},{"start":6478.502,"end":6482.763,"text":"所以這件事情我還是認為應該由中央來做統籌你就把責任擔起來好那你一定會說可是地方不願意這個娛樂稅免徵因為娛樂稅就是地方的稅收那我請問一下娛樂稅一年多少錢"},{"start":6499.025,"end":6518.198,"text":"全年大概19億19億但是我們現在是新的修正修草案在院裡面大概就是對競技還有藝文活動授權地方政府可以減免這都可以有訂那像高雄市他事實上他有很多演唱會他其實都已經在沒有免徵那個所以我就說因為財政比較好的狀況他就可以去免徵所以我在這邊要講我們一年20億"},{"start":6528.513,"end":6554.422,"text":"其實對中央來講你稅收超徵今年稅收超徵起碼4千億啦20億對中央來講真的零頭都不到可是對一些尤其比較財政比較困難的縣市那個就是他們的主要的稅收之一所以其實中央來定哪些項目可以免徵然後由中央把這些的金額補貼給他們"},{"start":6556.443,"end":6556.483,"text":"19億的這個娛樂稅稅收"},{"start":6576.563,"end":6580.926,"text":"高爾夫球最多,但是現在沒有人認為高爾夫球應該給他免徵嘛,對不對?夾娃娃機最多,夾娃娃機每年都在增加,但是大家也不會覺得說夾娃娃機要給他免徵嘛,對不對?KTV、小鋼珠至於我們剛剛講的全部都排在集會後面"},{"start":6595.996,"end":6600.261,"text":"所以我們在這個娛樂稅這一次的去調整跟檢討是非常好的事情但是呢我覺得不要造成地方縣市政府的困擾我剛講嘛你不要讓他一定要做黑臉嘛他做白臉呢他他要勒緊褲腰帶"},{"start":6612.034,"end":6636.612,"text":"他做黑臉呢那他也很痛苦啊是不是所以是不是由中央你們現在的修法是第一項第一到四款是可以由中央中央來決對地方縣市政府來決定是不是你中央就把它決定下去然後這麼少的這個稅收啊我們去補助給補助給這個相關的地方政府是不是一個可以去考慮的方向"},{"start":6637.472,"end":6643.261,"text":"委員您說的很實但是我們在邀請地方政府開會的時候他們並不這樣認為他們認為說還是要讓他自己決定因為他覺得這是他的財政自己權沒有我聽到的我聽到的都是希望中央趕快自己決定然後補貼給他們就好了"},{"start":6652.995,"end":6654.795,"text":"部長,我不會憑空去講這些話,如果地方縣市政府都很需要的話,我根本不用浪費我的質詢時間,因為我就是聽到真的好幾個縣市長跟我講,"},{"start":6681.801,"end":6688.865,"text":"是希望乾脆直接中央做決定另外你們的修法說實在像有些電影是最離譜的啦因為電影原來呢是非常高這個國片30%其他的片子外國語片呢"},{"start":6698.991,"end":6710.915,"text":"是60%那現在你們把它修到15%可是部長你也知道齁事實上現在各縣市有關電影只有0.5%到1%各縣市唷只有0.5%到1%連2%我都找不到了所以"},{"start":6719.659,"end":6733.51,"text":"你們的修法這個稅率是不是有點太偏離現在實際的狀況?如果在我來看,我覺得電影院應該免徵。你知道很多的地方縣市現在連一個電影院都沒有了。現在很多都是數位串流,所以連電影院都沒有了。"},{"start":6740.925,"end":6765.146,"text":"即便是六都吧其實電影的稅率他們定的也都很低只有0.5%有的是1%而已所以你們現在各個的所謂的現行稅率其實比實際的稅率啊實際現在各縣市的稅率差的很多所以這樣的修法已經不切實際了已經不切實際了你承認吧"},{"start":6769.935,"end":6795.407,"text":"因為我們訂的是一個上限那我們也了解過各縣市政府實際上收的一個稅率所以我們就往下降當然您說現在往下降以後我們的草案往下降和它實際收取的一個稅率還是有一段距離那它在這個上限之下都可以自行去決定另外電影也是屬於藝文活動之中的一項我們也已經授權在這個草案已經授權地方政府可以去做全免也都可以的"},{"start":6798.17,"end":6818.801,"text":"我必須講由中央來決定它是一個比較政策的方向我剛才講電影真的你現在電影把它全部取消我覺得都應該啦真的你做到再弄一個電影院其實經營起來都是很困難尤其你離開六都之後啊真的很多都根本沒有整個縣市一家電影院都沒有了"},{"start":6819.561,"end":6834.229,"text":"所以我在這邊最後剩一點時間我還是希望針對電影、針對演唱會、針對運動競技由我們中央的部分從財政部就直接把它作為免徵"},{"start":6835.51,"end":6848.331,"text":"那真的也不需要到地方大家來吵吵鬧鬧了啦你看比如說現在那個臺北市政府啊現在我看到也有些這個民進黨市議員說啊你沒有guts你要趕快把它怎麼免徵什麼之類的"},{"start":6849.901,"end":6873.181,"text":"基本上只要我們中央來做修法其實臺北市就會立刻配合啦他會立刻配合的但是我覺得有些部分是不是由中央就拿出一個態度來我剛才講如果這個稅收真的像貨物稅我們說貨物稅不是很好的稅對不對但是貨物稅它的稅收很多你沒有辦法放棄這個稅收"},{"start":6874.602,"end":6890.765,"text":"一律稅全部加起來20億而且我剛講最主要的貢獻我也沒有讓你免徵啊高爾夫球、夾娃娃機這些我也沒有讓你免徵啊但是這些根本已經聊勝於無擺在那邊只是在那邊做樣子的"},{"start":6892.086,"end":6903.278,"text":"為什麼不能夠由中央來做免徵也是一個政策我們也鼓勵縣市去發展不管是大巨蛋經濟或者你巨蛋經濟或者剪唱會經濟棒球經濟隨便啦對不對這也是一個態度嘛"},{"start":6909.988,"end":6921.276,"text":"所以您一開始也問過說我們有沒有去跟地方政府研議過這個事實上我們是不止一次跟地方政府討論結果他們的意見其實都已經歸納在我們這一次的修法草案裡面那我怎麼還聽到那麼多的不同的聲音真的就跟我講說拜託能不能讓中央自己聽下去就好了"},{"start":6932.023,"end":6932.043,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":6967.483,"end":6968.645,"text":"主席各位聯席觀眾大家好主席有請賦稅署宋署長宋署長"},{"start":6988.794,"end":6991.336,"text":"租屋黑市"},{"start":7015.572,"end":7030.981,"text":"依法規定,非自用住宅若供出租使用,除非確定是無產或非營業用使用之外,應按照當地租屋情況計入租用所得並入個人綜合所得,來繳稅。"},{"start":7034.262,"end":7055.068,"text":"5區國稅局的業務重點在於查核個人非自用房屋使用及租賃情形列為各年度的一個集合重點以防止短報、漏報租賃的這種情況我們從數據上可以看到國稅局越查越少讓這些逃脫稅的人持續的逍遙法外"},{"start":7056.789,"end":7077.322,"text":"111年度除了高雄跟中區國稅局查核比例略較109年度及110年度提升之外其餘3區國稅局的查核比例均為4年的新低再從其補稅件數比例各區都落在兩成以上111年度5區國稅局合計收入補稅金額8.41億元在補稅件數比例"},{"start":7087.31,"end":7102.244,"text":"（補稅金額均不低下（這樣的數據告訴我們說（逃漏報主任所得還是一大堆（賴總統的政見強調要落實居住正義（但是逃漏稅的還是很多（"},{"start":7103.405,"end":7129.161,"text":"能不能請署長告訴我到底要用什麼樣的方式才能把這些討論稅不願意讓租客申請租屋補貼的人抓出來那我還要跟署長強調就是說因為這個要討論稅而不願意讓租客進行租屋補助的案例滿街都是那這樣子這種情況之下民眾一點都感受不到政府"},{"start":7129.921,"end":7133.823,"text":"臺北國稅局總預算案有關財政部賦稅、臺北國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度"},{"start":7150.313,"end":7154.657,"text":"請署長說明為什麼會越查越少用什麼方法可以確實查核這些防止逃漏稅的情況"},{"start":7176.229,"end":7193.821,"text":"報告委員我們目前對於這種所謂的朱黑市我們大概或黑數大概有兩個方法一個叫羅波一個叫棒子那所謂的羅波就是像剛才委員關心的不管是公益出租人就拿租金補貼我們稱為公益出租人或是社會住宅的房東"},{"start":7194.902,"end":7212.787,"text":"在目前的住宅法都有給他一些租稅優惠每月批月1萬5以下是可以免稅的那他的費用率尤其社宅部分那費用率可以提高到60%所以事實上以我們現在的這種修正後的住宅法對於我們的愛心房東統稱愛心房東這樣的稅負是非常輕的"},{"start":7216.508,"end":7238.869,"text":"所以不會妨礙我們現在的房客去申報所謂的申請租金補貼或申報所謂租金支出扣除那另外呢我們對於不符合這個條件的可能有些房東他還是惡意的想要去規避稅賦那我們就有所謂的棒子就是委員所看到的其實委員看到的有些是叫專案查核"},{"start":7239.269,"end":7254.315,"text":"中央查核就是我們會挑多組別5戶以上10戶以上我們特別去看他的申報情形讓他申報不理想就是不如實的我們就會去加強查核另外我們有例行性查核所以委員看到的可能"},{"start":7255.035,"end":7284.032,"text":"看到的是比較專案的部分例行性查核我們也沒落下另外我們從今年7月1號開始實施的叫房屋稅差別稅率2.0我們特別加重對於多屋而且是空閒置我們是加重課稅當然對一種房東對一種房屋所有人我們是特別減稅就是他有出租他願意出租只要申報達租金標準我們不僅不加稅還減稅那這一部分都是我們目前在努力的方向所以我們現在是蘿蔔棒子都有"},{"start":7284.292,"end":7302.961,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7303.061,"end":7306.744,"text":"我這邊有張表格,其中執行率只有1.79%這張圖表是到112年底其中理由很多,工程多次的流標、物價"},{"start":7322.474,"end":7343.972,"text":"這個漲幅還有原編列物條經費不足還有天候疫情工人不足等因素的影響理由一大堆那物價計畫一再的延宕物價持續的上漲浪費的都是民脂民膏所以希望說我們負稅署能夠要明白就是說要隨時注意計畫有沒有落後"},{"start":7345.032,"end":7355.998,"text":"每個環節都要做一個評估作業如果發生延宕應該要抓緊腳步去解決問題回歸正軌不然的話民眾會認為說你是在浪費錢那這個1%的1.79%還有最高24.48%這個部分這些執行率慘不能賭所以署長你有什麼要說的"},{"start":7369.901,"end":7376.933,"text":"報告委員,因為農族集團所這樣子我們很清楚,因為我們主要是碰到很多問題﹖對,很多問題﹖很多理由﹖"},{"start":7382.604,"end":7406.672,"text":"對,他已經這個今年已經標出去了然後呢這個禮拜就已經要開工了就要開工那基本上如果他沒有真的興建那經費其實就是沒有支用所以才會造成看起來支出率比較低一點但我們也很希望有自由的辦公廳所以我們北區國局這邊也非常努力的去辦理相關的事項"},{"start":7408.151,"end":7427.999,"text":"好就是要求一定要檢討好不好是那再來就是討論雲端發票的問題那我們剛剛也提到其他我們很多委員都非常的關心這項計畫的一個量化成績績效那我有看到一個目標值是由115年的57%逐年調升到118年的60%"},{"start":7432.601,"end":7437.751,"text":"但是本期從預算中心看到報告113年今年的7月實際已經達到了58.63%已經超過58%距離118年的60%"},{"start":7445.003,"end":7463.936,"text":"只相差只有1.37那從現在到118年還有4年的時間那60%的目標是不是太輕鬆了那設定這個目標值就沒有挑戰性了所以組長你認不認同說雲端發票使用率的目標應該往上提升"},{"start":7464.656,"end":7465.277,"text":"提早答票當然是好事"},{"start":7492.758,"end":7496.942,"text":"提高目標的設定可不可以?是,我們會努力,一定會努力。好,謝謝,謝謝宋主席。我有請關務署彭署長。"},{"start":7526.793,"end":7548.099,"text":"委員好蘇長好上星期一是雙十一購物節我們知道很多商家都提供了很多的優惠跟折扣那民眾也想藉這個機會一次的買齊那很多包裹都是從國外入境台灣那當然一定會有不法人士也要藉這個包裹大量輸入的機會想要"},{"start":7548.959,"end":7568.851,"text":"偷渡非法物品來到臺灣我們要防止這些不肖人士的一個投機違法同時會實施的這些檢驗檢疫或者是低報貨物價格來逃漏這些稅費的部分甚至於是這個夾帶槍毒等這些危險物品企圖闖關的"},{"start":7570.912,"end":7583.228,"text":"海關持續加強各項的查緝作為防止走私逃漏當然這裡面毒品棄貨案這個案例毒品棄貨收集不易AI訓練的資料不足"},{"start":7585.931,"end":7613.76,"text":"那所以這個毒品尤其是新樣態的一個走私的樣態非常的多那走私的方法也都推陳出新所以我知道你們的計畫你們規劃這個次世代人工智慧輔助棄屍計畫導入生成式的AI強化人工智慧這些種種那編列的預算110年度編列了6472萬要增加這種棄屍能力但是我想要問的就是說"},{"start":7616.452,"end":7633.328,"text":"這些計畫將結合氣貨案例影像、樣品、毒品樣本的模擬還有相近原子序列的樣本影像來進行深層式的AI學習但是我們要了解現有的氣貨案例是不是足夠"},{"start":7635.162,"end":7635.182,"text":"僅詢答．1"},{"start":7652.406,"end":7679.753,"text":"我們會擔憂的就是說這樣子的訓練的一個訓練值能不能相信時間不夠啦所以請這個署長說明一下實際委員這方面的一個提醒那的確就是說運用這個AI第一個一定要資料量要非常一個大所以對於資料量我們都有用生成式的AI或者是用我們查緝的或者是跟友軍比如說警政署這邊來聯繫來提供更多的一個數量"},{"start":7682.5,"end":7682.84,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請莊部長"},{"start":7712.09,"end":7713.231,"text":"請部長委員好部長好這個請教一下這兩天我看到新聞那新聞上面在寫說國民黨的這個財化法的版本鬧雙包鬧雙包就是說國民黨內部對於財化法修法也有不同的意見然後有國民黨黨團的人表示說這個"},{"start":7741.271,"end":7767.761,"text":"黨團幹部他們又有一個共識就是說未來財務法修法的時候他們本來是要挖走6千多億現在國民黨自顧又提出來就是說要挖走這個3千多億的版本然後以修正冬季的方式提出來而且這個會拿掉首都稅的3%那不曉得部長有沒有得到類似的訊息"},{"start":7769.941,"end":7795.797,"text":"跟委員報告我們也並沒有看到這所謂的修正的一個部分之前只是在媒體有看到對啊那所以你看國民黨的版本這個最後強行通過版本是挖了大概6612億那現在呢國民黨內部又有不同的意見不曉得是不是有一些要選縣市首長的人這個良心發現還是怎麼樣不知道"},{"start":7796.477,"end":7796.557,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":7818.015,"end":7833.136,"text":"第一個我們財劃法的部分除了剛剛您剛剛講那個垂直分配之外也就是中央釋出多少錢第二個是水平分配水平分配很重要一個用意在裡面就是要調劑營區以及均衡地方的發展"},{"start":7833.917,"end":7854.405,"text":"因為每個地方的稅收狀況不一樣有好十幾個縣市他事實上不管地方稅或中央稅他所收起的部分都不夠稅出那所以這個需要靠水平分配的時候做調劑的營需然後讓各個縣市裡面的國民他其實都可以享受相同水平的一個這個我知道那現在就是說"},{"start":7855.485,"end":7881.947,"text":"看來國民黨內部也有不同的意見有6千多億有3千多億這個圖就是目前在那個黨團版送出財委會是這樣的一個分配的模式就是如您這個畫面上那就是這個是財政部臉書上面的資訊那我看了一下就是說國民黨版本在水平分配的問題這方面第一個3%說要給臺北市這是獨厚特定的地方政府"},{"start":7888.73,"end":7903.935,"text":"2.67%是按照人口數比例分配,所以對於人口較少的地方相對不利,擴大城鄉的差距。請教一下部長,按照國民黨的版本,水平分配問題是不是就像您所講的那樣?"},{"start":7906.212,"end":7920.039,"text":"確實根據這樣的一個黨團版本裡面我們根據他的水平分配所定出來的我們也去做過試算確實讓人口多的縣市取得相對的就相當的大的一個金額而對於部分地方政府可能因為他佔了67%就排擠到其他的一個分配"},{"start":7923.08,"end":7925.281,"text":"現在已經被送出委員會了接下來是草野協商那在草野協商的部分的話財政部這邊要怎麼去做因應"},{"start":7949.946,"end":7969.822,"text":"這個財化法的修正是一個非常重大的一個法案的一個修正應該要審慎的規劃不管是垂直分配的部分我想在公聽會裡面許多學者們都已經提出來錢跟權要同時均衡考量也就是說你必須要有四權先劃分清楚然後再考慮支出"},{"start":7970.623,"end":7991.734,"text":"施出確認以後才有所謂的收入怎麼樣分配但是如果只考量把錢做怎樣的挪移而沒有考慮事權的分配的話其實第一個就在隨時分配上就已經失衡了那第二個水平分配的部分我們一再談到就是說必須要做到調劑營需均衡區域的發展這個我知道齁這個我們一直在談齁這個事跟錢齁要一起來談但是齁就是跟你講就是說齁"},{"start":7997.378,"end":8003.642,"text":"現在如果國民黨硬要推不管他是6000多億還是3000多億那財政部自己有沒有因應的版本?"},{"start":8006.05,"end":8028.986,"text":"這個要審慎的規劃所以我們目前其實財政部之前已經開過兩次會召集地方政府來開會對於指標的部分我們其實努力的一直請各地方政府表達意見然後我們希望能夠縮小旗艦凝聚最大的一個共識在水平分配的部分先要把它安排好然後再考慮市權要如果要市權要重新調整的話再考慮支出面"},{"start":8029.426,"end":8029.446,"text":"（僅詢答（"},{"start":8049.276,"end":8071.086,"text":"因為我是蠻悲觀的啦如果按照這個國民黨這樣子要強推上次三分鐘就出去未來在朝野協商大概也不會就是說就算財政部有自己的版本或是說有自己的一些建議跟想法我覺得在朝野協商大概也會被擰壓過去啦但是我是認為說你們該要去"},{"start":8074.375,"end":8078.524,"text":"這個據理力真的還是要想辦法讓社會各界來知道"},{"start":8079.639,"end":8103.308,"text":"那這個我再請教一下這個之前這個也很多委員在問你們這個雲端種樹去的這個抽獎活動那我先問一下三個禮拜你們有一個檢討報告出來那檢討報告出來就是說你們說這個是跟廠商或是跟財政部內部的員工都沒有關係但是有一個抽獎資格的限定這個會有點問題"},{"start":8105.609,"end":8133.374,"text":"就是說呢 這個廠商的抽獎的程式調高了參與者的重簽權重給予優先抽獎的機會那這個廠商是可以自己去調這個優先這個抽獎的機會給予他重簽的權重嗎這個是你們的規定呢還是廠商自己去做處理的那因為這樣子處理是不是也讓這一個最後那四會得獎的機會大大的增加"},{"start":8135.131,"end":8163.297,"text":"委員報告我們的報告裡面有提到也就是說廠商在城市設計上他的邏輯其實是不是要已經跟我們原來要希望達到的一個目的已經偏離了所以這個部分呢我們也請調查局再調查有沒有相關不法的一個情勢那所以說這個是他自己設計的對跟你們沒有關係他也沒有來跟我們的主辦機關來做報告那他為什麼要做這樣的設計他有跟你們說明嗎"},{"start":8165.378,"end":8186.629,"text":"在事前也沒說明啊沒有我說事後之後你們在做調查的時候行政報告這部分的話為什麼會有這樣的設計呢報告委員事後他來說明的時候他是說希望能夠很快抽出來因為這個要現場直播開講我想這個部分的設計啊我們應該會進一步的再來去做相關的追究"},{"start":8187.008,"end":8194.721,"text":"不是啦,這個齁,不是什麼很快抽出來,我就是說你們行政報告出來,你們認為是說跟你們內部的人跟廠商是沒有關係的。"},{"start":8196.44,"end":8225.757,"text":"我們第一個要確認就是說重複中獎從大獎的這四位要先釐清是不是我們內部的人跟廠商的相關的本人配偶及三星那但是這部分有沒有問題這個部分我們查出來是沒有都沒有我是說廠商去調高權重的調高權重這個部分跟我們原來就是說我們有抽獎有這個目的就譬如說我們希望你用載具用財政部的APP或者是說你要用我們的那個調查報告哪時候可以出來"},{"start":8226.577,"end":8240.485,"text":"調查報告這個部分我們的行政調查部分已經出來但是調查局的那個調查結果到這個時間我們沒有辦法確定但是我們還是會對這個案子我們要會做全盤的檢討以及要做未來一定要做更好的改善"},{"start":8241.585,"end":8265.863,"text":"這家大家現在還在質疑認為說你們還是沒有給出一個很完整的一個說明這個財政部其實這個抽獎然後是這個辦活動尤其是統一發票不應該受到質疑這個你們要做很大的一個檢討那請問一下因為明年統一發票的經費你們有增加增加了187億左右那現在我問一下你們這個雲端發票"},{"start":8269.063,"end":8271.347,"text":"每一次每兩個月嗎?還是每個月?每兩個月開獎一次開獎的你們是說這個500塊現在是幾組啊?"},{"start":8278.771,"end":8296.798,"text":"5百塊是多少?幾百萬組?因為那個是雲端發表的專屬獎項我看你們最先知道245萬組這個是這個是兩個月的嗎?還是全年的啊?245萬組這個是全年的嗎?不是一起一起的吧一起的嗎?一起一起一起一起中獎的5百塊有245萬組那你們明年規劃勒?因為你們這個那個經費有提高啦統一發報告經費"},{"start":8306.591,"end":8316.585,"text":"給獎的獎金有提高啦那所以明年會提高到幾組勒?雲端發票部分我們會再算然後等經費過就是說預算通過以後預算通過之後會增加到幾組這怎麼會算不出來勒?"},{"start":8321.998,"end":8322.018,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":8339.588,"end":8360.557,"text":"不會低於這個當然是不會低於啊你們自己編的預算都增加啦當然是不會低於啊好我們再來計算一下大概是多少啊會多少到300萬組要看經費的結果這樣經費就是有給你們你們自己就已經增加了啊"},{"start":8361.67,"end":8382.86,"text":"怎麼會算不出來勒?那我們會委員我們這個部分第一個會不低於現在的這個組數齁然後按照不低於這廢話啊對好我們再算一下以後跟委員報告不是啊那大概是幾組勒?300萬組沒有一下增加這個為什麼會算不出來?對好我們再算一下我問題是為什麼這個會算不出來?"},{"start":8392.359,"end":8411.694,"text":"委員我跟您報告因為我們通常都要去算一下今年的對齡率因為我們是一個經驗法則簡單講雖然我開舉個例子我開250萬組這種獎人有多少人但不一定每個人都會來領獎那我們都會去算過去那一般的領獎比例大概是多少"},{"start":8412.014,"end":8412.415,"text":"預算提案截止時間"},{"start":8428.913,"end":8453.794,"text":"總會算不出來說明年會增加多少萬?但是我們為了要嚴謹起見我們算好之後我們都會召開記者會然後對外說明要用公開說明那這個就是一個承諾了所以我們會比較嚴謹啦對 大家初估啊估不出來有許因為我現在手上沒有數字對今天會談你們的預算啊怎麼會手上沒有這個數字咧今天是會談你們預算"},{"start":8455.185,"end":8463.931,"text":"啊沒有現在是只是答詢而已我當然知道啦我願意我可以我們回去以後如果順利通過我們哈?"},{"start":8482.52,"end":8485.561,"text":"臺北國財政部賦稅署及關務署及所屬、"},{"start":8512.708,"end":8534.41,"text":"委員好 部長剛剛那個李昆城委員說這個國民黨的財化法鬧雙包齁我在這裡來鄭重說明 相信我是國民黨團這裡在財政委員會的召集委員齁這個國民黨財化沒有鬧雙包啦 我們就是只有我們通過去的那個版本那在這中間當然這個 呃 國民黨有智庫 智庫提供了很多種的"},{"start":8535.091,"end":8551.49,"text":"不同的版本試算的給我們參考我們都有拿來看但是我們後來決定選用的版本就是上上禮拜通過的那個版本不過我不知道你們現在還有沒有打算還是不打算提出行政院的版本是什麼就是財政部這邊的院版"},{"start":8552.772,"end":8574.643,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛講的財化法修正是一個非常重大的一個事情我們認為要審慎規劃但是你們上個會期我們已經說過給你們三個月去研究了然後你剛剛也說沒錯就是事權也要改變那所以如果你們一直不提出來那過了以後變成財政委員會立法院帶領著行政院前進我們往前走我們把"},{"start":8576.064,"end":8600.544,"text":"蛋糕切好以後然後其他事權要改變的部分各個部會就要趕快跟上我們當然也說包括內政部其他部會就要事權就要跟上劃分就要跟上那等於是變成是立法院帶領著行政院這個前進所以到目前為止還你們也已經從我們上次從6月結議到9月現在都11月你們跟地方的溝通到現在你們都還沒有辦法拿出一個你們的板"},{"start":8601.66,"end":8618.313,"text":"我們跟地方在討論的時候是先就指標就水平分配的指標部分在討論就如同委員也知道就原來要全部每個縣市都同意是不肯定的你們就是要也要縮小期限而且要凝聚一個最大的不是最後上次已經說只剩下幾項嗎只剩下一兩樣嗎"},{"start":8621.535,"end":8641.343,"text":"有三個指標的部分還有一些爭議另外其實更重要的是後面的權重跟調整係數其實也要審慎的一個再做進一步的討論反正我們尊重這是你們的權利要放棄這個權利我們也是尊重你們反正立法是立法院應該做的事情權責那我今天要請教這個應該是"},{"start":8645.495,"end":8648.479,"text":"金門縣政府之前提的綜合規劃裡頭要講的是一個要把金門打造成精緻購物免稅島是金門縣的願景這個是在民國99年那時候的縣長就說了希望達成全島免稅"},{"start":8664.758,"end":8669.641,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅、臺北國稅局及所屬、高雄國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度。"},{"start":8694.117,"end":8700.782,"text":"免徵關稅、貨物稅、營業稅、二退、煙酒稅、煙品健康復旧營業稅、出口限量退稅李島經濟條例第10條也有說（蓬勻金本麻族、綠島藍營、琉球這些營業人士李島經濟條例說（與當地交付的貨物或是提供的免徵營業稅這些地方免徵營業稅這個辦法你們定資的"},{"start":8721.897,"end":8726.659,"text":"但是因為金門地區90%貨物都是從臺灣進口從臺灣島來進口所謂運費進口貨物課的5%因為現在這個稅制金門現在是免徵營稅但是造成競向無法扣抵這個就變成直接轉嫁到消費者身上所以事實上民眾是百姓消費者中端消費者是感受不到營業稅的優惠"},{"start":8748.388,"end":8775.267,"text":"我們算了一下離島3個縣市以金門來講如果離島3個縣市實行3年稅稅損是影響很少的你看每一年大概金門的部分大概一年是3億元副會長我也請他來溝通過所以我們是希望說把營業稅的部分變成零稅率變成零這個我跟副會長溝通過很多次稅損的部分事實上也只有影響"},{"start":8777.429,"end":8798.745,"text":"3億那如果再按照我看現在我們要通過的這個財化法事實上這個部分如果很大的部分營業稅是歸地方所以最後事實上它這個稅損是地方政府而不會影響到我們中央政府根本也只有3億元的這個部分你們那時候說影響租稅公平性不利在地的這個但是呢我們剛剛說按照這個財化法的這個規定"},{"start":8802.288,"end":8823.61,"text":"這樣子事實上對中央的稅稅損事實上如果通過這個以後是沒有影響的啊所以說是不是在這個法律部分如果配合這個法律的這個相關修正對因為要考慮我們離島有一些地理條件啊什麼都不一樣你看世界各國對離島都有一些特別的國土發展的這個計畫那這個部分是不是也應該適度的做一些政策的這個調整啊"},{"start":8825.031,"end":8837.737,"text":"不然90%都從臺灣進口商家沒有真正的享受到基本的商家反應這個反應很多年了都沒有真正的享受到減免這個就是免徵營業稅那個優惠這樣子也沒有辦法真正照顧到離島地區的消費者我請那個負稅署署長署長對這個議題應該我跟您討論過很多次"},{"start":8844.921,"end":8844.981,"text":"主席"},{"start":8864.398,"end":8880.1,"text":"作成我說的零稅率的話稅損就更少了現在以5%來算是3億如果只有1%的話只有5分那一年的稅損也才6千萬那就更少了對中央的影響太小了我跟委員報告其實我們在考慮一個租稅政策的時候有時候不是單純"},{"start":8881.582,"end":8881.602,"text":"僅詢答"},{"start":8897.515,"end":8915.492,"text":"等這樣的特區所以我們是說我們就一個金門島來這樣考慮了我想你還是研究一下這個法律部分因為如果以後財化法通過以後應該說還是地方的到時候少收也是地方政府少收也許在法院上面我們得一個什麼依據不然以後地方政府如果可以自己願意讓地方政府可以"},{"start":8915.612,"end":8917.915,"text":"臺北新竹歸新竹我們基本稅損是我們自己承擔變成我們自己縣政府來承擔嘛那這個部分的話就影響你們更小了"},{"start":8931.389,"end":8953.925,"text":"您瞭解我的意思嗎?我瞭解,但是可能要看財政部我們會願意為了促進我們地方的發展所以我們願意提供一些比較好的政策今天現在地方政府也自己提供一些優惠的獎勵投資政策因為離島比較遠有些人不太願意過去投資所以我們自己也提供一些營所稅的補助什麼各方面的政策還是沒有那麼多人去投資但是我們盡量在政策上給離島一些"},{"start":8955.914,"end":8970.568,"text":"事實上又對中央的收入是沒有影響的。您了解嗎?這個可能你回去再研究一下。因為在營業稅,第一影響都這麼少,如果再散散只有6000萬,第二個還都是影響金門縣自己的收入,不是影響你們中央政府的收入啊。"},{"start":8970.828,"end":8998.306,"text":"你這個再想想法律上我們怎麼來做好不好讓金門的地方有更多的這個發展第二個我要問請問的關務署這個是金門立島免稅商店有4家啦這個離島專做離島免稅還有免稅商店就是大的那種免稅商店而不是離島免稅離島免稅是有限量的你知道嗎限量啊什麼東西都有限額的4家那大的什麼但是這個當然有增加的這個免稅商店開啟增加一些就業機會啦還有旅遊像"},{"start":9000.547,"end":9026.441,"text":"我昨天回金門去接待一些大陸觀光客他們都特別喜歡到免稅商店去購物對金門的這個整個當然很多產業還有觀光客會來嘛到免稅店去買那對金門的這個幫助也很大但是設立到免稅條件他資本要求5000萬以下那這個跟設立這個全臺灣免稅那種店一般的免稅商店資格一致這個很對這個當然這店不好做但是對於這個"},{"start":9027.922,"end":9049.247,"text":"資本的這麼高事實上對這個金門的一般商家還是會相對起來辛苦啦所以說事實上這樣變成是財團才有能力去做我們要推的是整個金門都變成這樣一個區啦所以你看看這個部分的話是不是還是需要去再檢討這個法規的相關對於遇到免稅的部分是給比較寬鬆的這個條件啦你了解我在說什麼嗎?就是比較寬鬆一點不要說只有財團才能做這樣的生意啦"},{"start":9057.699,"end":9079.508,"text":"可以嗎?去研究一下看這個有什麼好方法,或者在政策上面有沒有什麼可以幫助金門地方更多的,因為這是你們關務署這邊比較重要的,可以推行的,來研議看看喔那還有,剛剛也有委員問到這個就是數位海關的那個再造計畫那個部分6千多萬,很奇怪你們的那個合併版的這個"},{"start":9081.949,"end":9109.344,"text":"這個計劃裡頭你們需要的錢是兩億六千五嘛齁但是你們的預算編列是兩億五千萬啦齁這個你們看到嗎你們的合定版總共是大概預估明年總共要兩億六千五百多萬但是一百一十人只有合編列兩億五是合定的寫得太高還是你們錢不夠啊還是你們不需要啊什麼原因因為我們整個行政院的科技計劃它是整個總數額的啦"},{"start":9109.784,"end":9111.345,"text":"明年如果說我們沒有辦法編列在這裡面的話那我們會往後"},{"start":9129.557,"end":9146.078,"text":"其他的115或116等那邊（還有你要注意再提問如果你要注意一點你們在113年4月依據政府採購法的三四條第一項規定徵求廠商對一些意見但沒有廠商提出來我在想說到底是完全做得太好了沒有廠商"},{"start":9147.159,"end":9164.329,"text":"可以提出任何改正的意見或者是廠商不敢表達意見這個可能要思考一下跟委員報告還是有廠商來跟我們提供這個需求的意見也有提供意見有一家非常大型的國際然後棄屍計畫裡頭那剛因為袁昆文有問我只是簡單的在說金門市作為邊境這個棄屍計畫你們這個深層次AI這個棄屍計畫裡頭這個可能在金門地區也要特別注意這個部分可能也要加強到時候在我們金門地區"},{"start":9175.635,"end":9175.835,"text":"陳玉珍委員"},{"start":9205.831,"end":9206.732,"text":"副稅署署長郭柯財產署"},{"start":9226.147,"end":9236.596,"text":"委員好部長好媒體很多國人都非常關心這個很多稅務的規劃的議題那我想請問一下部長那新聞上我有看到有關我們遺產稅跟這個他後續的跟政經稅他後續的急劇因為從上一次我們修正是2017年那其實這幾年大家都知道物價指數調整的非常非常多"},{"start":9253.911,"end":9277.169,"text":"在這一塊雖然部分新聞我已經看到包括消費者的物價指數比上一次我們調整的時候其實差距已經累積高達10%以上了那雖然部分的媒體我有看到有一些報導的數字但是已經10月底了那到底我要請問一下部長到底我們什麼時候會公佈完整的級距跟數字"},{"start":9279.048,"end":9293.033,"text":"對,跟委員報告對於課稅級距的金額的CPI的上漲程度超過10%了對,早就應該調了嘛,對不對12.42%所以呢,我們在今年年底以前就會公告明年所適用的一個課稅級距的金額"},{"start":9294.153,"end":9311.261,"text":"副長有沒有可能再提早一點因為媒體有沒有已經看到部分的資訊了我的意思是說因為你到年底那種明年人家來不及去做稅務的規劃要做贈與的話就來不及去規劃所以我已經看到媒體有部分所以有沒有可能再提因為現在已經10月了吧11月了吧"},{"start":9313.223,"end":9318.088,"text":"我們在一個月以內就來做公告,好嗎?好,謝謝部長。包括不計預算總額、扣除額這些,其實現在物價真的調得非常多。所以我覺得有機會,當然這是兩件不同的事情。"},{"start":9331.46,"end":9332.601,"text":"目前是在法律稅規定說要超過累計超過10%"},{"start":9351.565,"end":9380.479,"text":"才會去做調整那上一次在112年已經還有113年也都做過調整了對我知道每一個每一個項目調整的時間不同所以要去看他累計的我知道我知道你們有一定的標準但是現在時空環境物價這幾年大家面臨的挑戰又不一樣所以我在想說這一塊我覺得你們當然有有有有一定的調整的一個一個一個時間點跟集聚達到但是我覺得那個整個都要"},{"start":9381.735,"end":9386.027,"text":"平現在的大環境時空我覺得再去做進一步的考量可不可以"},{"start":9388.79,"end":9409.307,"text":"謝謝部長接下來部長有一個議題我先把國有財產署問完署長因為國有財產署閒置的土地非常非常的多我地方常常在辦會堪比如說颱風天如果是私人土地山坡地速打下來倒下來不小心打到人所有權人有責任要去做賠償對不對"},{"start":9412.009,"end":9440.441,"text":"你的土地也不少,樹長的也很多我常常颱風前要去會刊地方政府說這個是中央的沒有錢來去做處理所以我覺得無論是你現在國有財產署閒置的土地要不要去做活用或要不要去做什麼樣的管理或者是野草長得亂七八糟的我覺得那個都要有足夠的經費然後要有人去做巡視跟檢視"},{"start":9442.338,"end":9449.262,"text":"否則你就乾脆就是閒置的土地你看地方要不要用怎麼樣去做活用跟各縣市全國有一個更好的計畫來去做進行"},{"start":9452.858,"end":9478.38,"text":"你清楚我今天議題很多我就不要占用這個時間我是做這樣子的提醒我簡單跟委員報告第一個就是剛剛講的如果可以跟地方政府像村里長可以做認養綠美化的部分我覺得你那個誘因要夠啦你給里長多一個這樣的規定譬如說停車假設停車是大家的需求或者是做縱速什麼樣的是大家的需求"},{"start":9478.88,"end":9502.291,"text":"我覺得你應該多一點的彈性給對方更多的用意去做處理否則這一次我覺得樹倒下來從你國有財產署的土地也不少我們也知道委員剛剛的情形所以從去年開始我們寫了一個中長城計畫那就是整個環境的清理所以這一次颱風完之後環境的清理然後預算你要有一點錢去處理現在地方也沒什麼經費"},{"start":9504.892,"end":9518.579,"text":"6都可能還好其實各縣是很辛苦所以你這個經費一定要編的足夠好我就時間不讓你時間到這邊再提就好我要做這樣的提醒我希望這一次我主決議裡面一定會提部長你清楚我的意思我覺得這個是有必要要做否則颱風來速打到人"},{"start":9520.76,"end":9538.408,"text":"我前面去會堪地方都跟我講沒錢這是中央的事情然後你地方經費又不足所以這個我提醒做出去那第二個你們兩位請回第二個部長我要請問一下就是說最近健保署當然我們健保的費用其實很多都要撥補臺電也要跟你要錢營業稅也要要錢健保署提了一個構想就是說未來的營業稅我們的消費稅可不可以做財源性的撥補"},{"start":9549.834,"end":9550.9,"text":"你的看法到底是什麼?"},{"start":9552.708,"end":9582.411,"text":"跟委員報告營業稅目前基本的稅率就是5%是法定稅率我知道但是健保署提出來這樣的建議就可以做健保的固定的比例來做支援你的看法是什麼?營業稅的調整涉及到有關實質租稅的負擔我清楚部長時間很長你直接你的看法是同意還不同意支持還是不支持另外也要跟委員報告在財政紀律法裡面有規定部長但我知道"},{"start":9582.951,"end":9604.952,"text":"當然財政紀律法它要統收統資然後不得增加比例也不得成立基金的專管專用對 這個你我都知道我想石署長他其實是為了健保的一個更好的永續所以他有一些意見那這個部分我們也會去跟他溝通包含財紀法的規定跟營業稅率的一些調整那類似這樣的想法部長 類似這樣的想法"},{"start":9609.413,"end":9619.602,"text":"院理包括中太院長或者是高層的更高層長有沒有去做過溝通?有沒有曾經做過溝通?院長有沒有關心過類似這樣的事情?因為健保的錢財務狀況當然也非常的辛苦所以有沒有做過類似的溝通?"},{"start":9636.836,"end":9656.818,"text":"這個部分因為涉及到健保署的業務跟衛福部的業務而我們沒有去參與這樣的會議這樣子所以院裡面都沒有人跟你做過溝通這件事情沒有純粹是衛福部內部的想法我想我們會跟衛福部這邊再做一次溝通對"},{"start":9658.226,"end":9658.546,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9674.326,"end":9674.506,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9695.149,"end":9708.886,"text":"要怎麼去處理我們現在整個統收統支狀況未來要怎麼活用其實有一定的處理原則跟方式所以這個要怎麼處理我覺得我要提醒你這個還是要注意另外最後一點"},{"start":9710.588,"end":9732.097,"text":"因為時間有限我要問一下有關於課稅的制度要怎麼去做調整部長現在所有的民間包括跟稅務制度相關的一些議題就是說很多民眾他仍然就願意花很多的時間跟成本去進行有關於課稅的一些稅務的訴訟你知道原因是為什麼嗎"},{"start":9733.922,"end":9750.073,"text":"因為但是行政訴訟的案件有一半都是稅務的案件那其實稅務的案件它的勝訴率其實非常的低但是民眾仍舊願意花時間成本去做稅務的訴訟你知道原因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":9752.734,"end":9777.986,"text":"民眾申請提出這個訴訟是民眾的一個權益他們可以提出來了對但是他的救濟的途徑也很多但是民眾覺得有一些在法律的制定的過程當中其實很多民眾他的目的不是要逃稅他覺得他的目的可能有很多不同的原因但是稅務法規非常多多如牛毛所以很多情況"},{"start":9779.187,"end":9803.656,"text":"很多時候他們也不知道哪些是必須要申報的或者是有時候他們收到了罰單之後才知道說這個應該要罰稅但是他也願意補繳我也關注到就是說在行政法裡面行政法院裡面他們也提到就是說好幾個案例他也提到就是說包括稅政機關對於具體的個案他也提醒你們說必須有一些你看到有一些是這個財閥有一些是違章情形叫輕者"},{"start":9807.878,"end":9810.889,"text":"其實你們有一些裁量空間可以去處理"},{"start":9813.56,"end":9840.2,"text":"但是你們這樣子第4條裡面你們很少去用到這樣子的法規就是說其實行政法院也要提醒你們有好幾個案例就是考量納稅人的行為嚴重程度還有背後可能有不同的原因不能只看漏報後面如果有補繳那後面就讓他補繳但是後面有一些財閥事實上要看他的狀況來去做調整否則的話你們就是行政怠惰"},{"start":9842.126,"end":9852.545,"text":"我覺得第4條是可以適用但是有時候我開協調會他們有時候是不知道要繳但他們願意繳逃落的部分但是你們是加倍加重的懲處"},{"start":9854.853,"end":9877.664,"text":"我覺得政府的目的不是要透過罰款來賺錢是要提醒是 謝謝委員我想剛剛委員提到就是行政訴訟的部分因為現在我們就有設置納保官所以民眾如果對於這個稅務案件如果有需要申訴跟說明他透過納保官來做處理但是有一些裁量的空間你較輕較重第4條也就是說對於這個"},{"start":9881.886,"end":9885.509,"text":"部長,你們好幾個案例你們都敗訴,行政法院派你們就說你們應該去朝向去考量個人的狀況,所以"},{"start":9904.126,"end":9905.488,"text":"主席各位委員出列習慣人大號主席有請財政部莊部長有請莊部長"},{"start":9934.084,"end":9957.699,"text":"總部長 你看起來慈眉善目最重要的還是要體恤所有老百姓的辛苦現在物價飆漲事實上很多基層的老百姓很多年輕人是教苦連天一個便當以前六七十塊現在一個便當可能就要一百三、一百五"},{"start":9958.943,"end":9980.825,"text":"實在是很辛苦啊所以我們看到今年的稅收又超徵接近快三四千億拜託可不可以優先考量一下把這個錢平均的發給每一個民眾一人一萬塊的紅包拜託拜託好不好"},{"start":9983.123,"end":9990.686,"text":"委員我想這個部分大家都很重視所謂的財政紀律所以這個部分對於時增數超過預算數的部分我們會先從減少舉債增加還債然後納入稅計剩餘那委員當然提到有些民眾事實上生活的一個辛苦我們認為進入國庫以後由國庫做資源的調配"},{"start":10002.79,"end":10005.071,"text":"臺北國稅局總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度"},{"start":10026.184,"end":10039.296,"text":"因為總是聊勝於無那至少對年輕人來講心裡是很安定的因為外在的環境變動如果一萬塊"},{"start":10040.273,"end":10069.392,"text":"放在自己的口袋裡又溫暖冬天又到了實際上又可以自己來支配使用這才是對全民真正的照顧我們在這裡審總預算我們看到一筆下去國防支出可能就是5000億甚至因為現在川普當選了還叫我們要提高國防軍費那個都是天文數字"},{"start":10070.693,"end":10085.882,"text":"那與其很快就通過這些民眾感覺不到的這個數字倒不如回歸給一點溫暖給民眾本席在這裡還是再次拜託部長你好好來審酌一下現在"},{"start":10091.328,"end":10113.957,"text":"川普當選了那事實上台灣的整個經濟的局勢上上下下面對未來可能又有很大的衝擊跟變化那在114年的總預算裡面有沒有什麼樣大環境改變的時候部長想要去做的"},{"start":10114.79,"end":10136.622,"text":"例如說剛剛講到物價飆漲所有的公股銀行今年的薪資會不會再調升今年就是明年了會不會有這樣的一個準備另外我看到一個是很辛苦的有一些這個國營的銀行每個月的"},{"start":10141.266,"end":10167.829,"text":"餐飲費部長你知道他們一個月餐飲費多少錢是兩千是到三千吧七百塊你查一下有人是三千那個是民營的這個銀行辦公股銀行公股的銀行幾十年沒調他的餐飲費一個月是多少七百塊"},{"start":10170.125,"end":10198.243,"text":"700塊的話部長那大概一天的話餐飲費是多少錢?22天大概就是不到30塊部長那請問將心比心啊你如果是這些國營銀行的員工一天只有不到30塊的飲食用餐費你覺得這個夠嗎?"},{"start":10201.032,"end":10201.392,"text":"這不是光光你現在當部長"},{"start":10229.406,"end":10254.972,"text":"那過去過去一年兩年三年四年我們是希望一個永續的經營團隊你現在做其實很重要我看到現在民間的這些聘用這些金融人員啊薪資啊又高福利條件又好所以你造成現在這個階段你入局啊你要招新人啊你招不到啦好的人招到也留不住啊"},{"start":10256.055,"end":10281.171,"text":"你光是講這個餐飲費好了最基本的吃便當一想到他就沒有心情做下去了別人同樣同工同酬外面吃的是大魚大肉不要說大魚大肉就一個便當可能是150塊國營的這些銀行的人員每天面對中午吃便當是25塊不到30塊"},{"start":10283.82,"end":10311.173,"text":"那部長,不到30塊要吃什麼?總不能每天吃泡麵吧?國營事業我們的相關的機構要對員工的福利給予多餘照顧部裡面基本上支持趕快想出一個方法來另外一個就是川普的時代已經來臨了我覺得在這個總預算裡面是看起來都很保守"},{"start":10312.315,"end":10332.264,"text":"那就是保守有餘開創不足比如說移政稅好了移政稅我們看到在去年度第3款地方政府遺產及贈與稅短掃補助4億7千萬那"},{"start":10340.546,"end":10368.664,"text":"其實一陣稅以前最低稅率是幾%10%目前是多少最低限率也是10%然後有15跟20有10、15、20不過如果說要鼓勵臺商或者更多的資金回來配合這個金管會彭主委推動的讓臺灣打造成為一個"},{"start":10370.936,"end":10383.465,"text":"資產管理中心部長你需不需要更多的臺商或是世界的有錢人回來臺灣因為川普當選臺灣比較不會戰爭了吧這個句話對不對我們當然歡迎臺商回臺來投資以正稅會不會重新再調整為10%"},{"start":10394.241,"end":10394.902,"text":"新加坡有沒有移政稅?"},{"start":10424.103,"end":10447.05,"text":"有沒有?新加坡沒有移政稅啊?香港有沒有移政稅?所以在這一個一個新的布局的稱號所以我說川普當選你有很多制度你應該去想一想是不是應該要充分的來討論一下我們希望愛台灣"},{"start":10448.604,"end":10472.533,"text":"做大台灣做強台灣然後多多照顧這些年輕人你看看在新加坡新加坡啊他大學畢業平均的薪資大概是多少一畢業進入這些企業單位薪水是多少大概是八九萬九萬的新台幣"},{"start":10473.834,"end":10479.638,"text":"好,我們現在公營這個機關的這些招新人員的時候,大學畢業考進來的話,底薪是多少?各個公司應該不太一樣,對。好,隨便你講兩間。臺營多少?臺營新進的員工?進菜啦,進菜講幾間?"},{"start":10496.107,"end":10501.608,"text":"大學畢業剛考進來啦剛考進來應該4、5萬吧差不多吧4萬沒有到4萬啦你們大概是3萬多啦不管啦我的意思就是說你3萬多人家新加坡就是9萬啦人才大量的流失啊"},{"start":10524.093,"end":10549.281,"text":"沒有的話你去台灣查查看啊臺大職工系每次畢業的大概200個學生大概一半以上可能跑去香港跑去新加坡啊人才沒有留在台灣不為台灣的企業所留用好可惜啊所以部長希望你好好來思考一下包括川普當選以後國安基金現在的規模是多少"},{"start":10550.57,"end":10566.098,"text":"目前是五千億五千億要不要思考調高到一兆以上讓台灣更有韌性讓台灣面對各種挑戰的時候可以更加從容的應付所以部長我覺得"},{"start":10571.104,"end":10597.949,"text":"財政部部長不是只有管錢進出進出過路財神而已啊其實你的一舉一動可以帶動臺灣10年20年包括離島可能是一個長遠的一個發展所以拜託部長在稅制上好好思考一下怎麼樣對臺灣是最大的幫助包括剛剛所講的那個以外還有"},{"start":10598.922,"end":10621.165,"text":"全世界沒有娛樂稅啊娛樂稅要不要重新調整還也有一個對你們稅收最穩定你們最開心的政交稅當沖現來的擠來不及當沖降稅現在已經快11月一晃就12月了你今年年底的日落條款就到了"},{"start":10623.054,"end":10648.471,"text":"當沖降稅年底之前會不會過?你有沒有把握?目前案子在大院當然是由大院來進度是由大院我們也希望能夠在今年年底以前能夠定案那明年才可以順利的定案我們下午才要再協商而已你協商要送到院會還要待多久的冷凍期啊所以希望部長可以思考一下剛剛以上本席所說的質詢加油謝謝"},{"start":10652.039,"end":10654.221,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府監事長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請莊部長和賦稅署宋署長"},{"start":10678.55,"end":10688.506,"text":"委員好部長好 署長好我從你們的土地呃 飼料成業稅啊有看到一個土地稅的一個實力側來看一下 來"},{"start":10690.454,"end":10708.888,"text":"國務卿先生說這個漲價不能是地主的不勞而獲,平均地權要造價徵稅,漲價要歸公。請問漲價歸公的邏輯是什麼?是因為地主他的地價不是他的貢獻造成的,是因為政府的公共建設,是因為社會的繁榮,是這樣的嗎?"},{"start":10710.216,"end":10727.041,"text":"沒有錯,漲價歸功就不是自己的勞力、努力支出的,然後因為整個成長以後,那這個漲價的部分應該要歸功那地價除了會上漲,除了社會的發展,還有政府的建設投資之外,還有什麼會決定地價的不一樣?下一頁"},{"start":10728.156,"end":10745.992,"text":"當然買賣買賣啦不是啦是關於我們都市計畫土地的劃分啦你是住宅區商業區工業區還是農業區對不對是啊所以這是由誰決定的地方政府決定的嗎政府對產業發展有需求都市計畫更動地主被動接受好壞全民運氣你就這樣公平嗎"},{"start":10748.256,"end":10774.258,"text":"當然因為你劃分到不同的都市計畫的區位以後,自然對於地價的估算上就有不同了。是啊,那地主他完全不能決定非同接受,如果被劃成農業區呢?使用限制就不同,對,使用限制也不一樣。好,那我們來講農民,最近的國土計畫引起農民很關切。農民啊,假設呢,有兩兄弟,一個繼承糧田,他的農地呢,目前的國土計畫,他不可能變耕,用來做農業使用,但是氣候變遷造成農產欠收,他不見農農維生啊。"},{"start":10776.109,"end":10791.477,"text":"但是如果他的地地繼承到的土地是貧瘠的經過國土計劃法都市計劃手段後呢他可能怎樣化為非農業使用資產暴增你覺得這樣子繼承到農地難道是一種原罪嗎繼承到糧田難道是一種原罪嗎理論上合理嗎"},{"start":10798.117,"end":10814.806,"text":"現在的農民就算你繼承了糧田生產力再高豐收你的銷貨收入可能還遠不如一塊平均的農地去種光電或者都市計畫之後它的地價暴增你知道這個情況嗎?那你的全人類願不願意幫助農民?"},{"start":10819.953,"end":10840.474,"text":"幫助農民當然是政府整體的好那你怎麼幫助你作為一個財長怎麼幫助稅法我們來看一下來人民為什麼要繳稅因為要嗯繳稅繳稅是什麼人民要對國家有貢獻嘛對是不是我的收入越高我繳的稅越多對如果我繳的稅超過我應該對國家的貢獻會不會退稅"},{"start":10843.493,"end":10861.383,"text":"因為如果你是超過的話當然是會有稅稅我是個農民我幫國家維持糧食生產維持糧田讓他做農業生產但是田富的價值很低啊過去的提案遠少於農民維持國家糧田的貢獻所以我們國家才停征田富嘛對不對"},{"start":10862.677,"end":10864.118,"text":"農民對國家的貢獻遠大於他的田腹所以就不用繳了對不對那你財長你會支持嗎"},{"start":10882.514,"end":10906.224,"text":"停徵填富你支持吧?你不會要求要復徵填富嗎?不會啊不會好那我們來看一下你知道土地稅法22條有一個規定喔農業用地是徵收填富對不對但是都市土地他如果是屬於公共設施尚未完整前仍然做農地使用者他是不是不收地價稅改徵填富?"},{"start":10908.36,"end":10926.689,"text":"對阿改正阿田屋就不用繳嘛所以就免稅嘛對不對假設我是一個工廠老闆我買了一塊工業區的土地但是因為道路還沒有完盡我沒辦法開始生產營運所以我就不會有營業所得稅不只如此如果我要維持繼續農業生產國家不會給我增地價稅還不會給我收田負對不對是不是這樣子"},{"start":10933.935,"end":10941.422,"text":"對啦我都市計劃內如果化為工業用地道路會完整再我繼續做農業使用你是不徵稅的嘛22條寫得很清楚不熟嗎沒錯啦沒錯好但是如果我的農地上因為政府沒有給我做農業灌溉設施所以我的農地的生產力很低落那你政府要怎麼辦"},{"start":10956.192,"end":10969.084,"text":"你不能給我免稅啊我已經怎樣我已經是免徵填付啦你怎麼補償我工廠的老闆可以免徵地價稅只要他繼續做農業使用我的農地上政府沒有做給我做灌溉設施你怎麼補償我這個部分在主管的農業部應該會有相關的一個類似他們有他們的一個做法你猜到了一部分但我再跟你提醒一個部分有沒有聽說過負所得稅"},{"start":10984.194,"end":10993.95,"text":"負所得稅曾經在冒險的一個資料裡面,泰國的他姓一個陳總理提出負所得稅,用這個方式來解為社會不平等,有沒有聽過?"},{"start":10996.055,"end":11018.357,"text":"有喔?不只不用繳稅,國家要給他錢。什麼情況下呢?來給你看。您說的沒有錯,綠色環境給付,這是農業部的。因為農民他幫國家維持優良的糧食生產的環境,所以呢,會給他綠色給付。但這個綠色對地給付呢,比照司法院所認為的每一個人民的必要生活費呢,是遠遠不足啊。"},{"start":11019.258,"end":11029.548,"text":"也就是說我們的司法院認為一個人民他應該維持生活的最低收入如果換在農糧署現在綠色環境給付的對地補助上是不夠的你覺得怎麼辦"},{"start":11034.206,"end":11054.665,"text":"如果農民的年金所得加上農業部給他的綠色環境給付還不足以維持司法院所認為的生活所必須有沒有可能我們用負所得稅的方式來思考一下怎麼樣維持農民的基本生活"},{"start":11056.485,"end":11056.865,"text":"主席站起來了"},{"start":11078.208,"end":11102.574,"text":"請言譽．如果經常農地有農用適時．當農民的年淨所得．加上綠色環境給付等計劃政策補助．少於司法院所定的每月生活所必須數額的年總和時．請用副所得稅的概念．來政策補足農民的基本生活．請就這個可行性提一個書面報告給本席．一個月內可以嗎?好,謝謝委員一個月夠喔,你長得這麼爽快我看你對副所得稅還不是很清楚勒?"},{"start":11104.321,"end":11109.643,"text":"需要多少時間?署長需要多少時間?署長一個月夠嗎?付所得稅喔!"},{"start":11110.834,"end":11112.414,"text":"財政部的政策補助、綠色對地補助再怎麼樣也不能滿足它"},{"start":11141.139,"end":11151.367,"text":"我們要解決農民因為農地被限制不得做其他使用但是農業生產又很難維持他基本生活這個困境國家要面對好不好謝謝"},{"start":11172.523,"end":11172.703,"text":"5百多億嗎?"},{"start":11199.383,"end":11210.523,"text":"您可能要對著麥克風說在歷年來說其實我們對美國的差一直是在提升的就對美國的出口是在擴張的是的所以從川普他"},{"start":11212.992,"end":11238.087,"text":"進選時候的政見包括他對於所謂科徵基本關稅進一步提高不公平國家的關稅稅率這個部簽看起來他在1月20號就職以後應該會朝這個方向來進行所以我們目前2023看起來是400多億塊500億那我們是不是所謂的不公平貿易國家在我們的認知裡面我們會不會被列為不公平貿易國家"},{"start":11239.431,"end":11260.861,"text":"這個部分其實在上週的時候我們的召委在委會有提到專案報告我們覺得要關注這個議題也就是說我們對他的這個差順差一直在擴大的話所以我們現在是一個要等著給保護費然後不知道保護費夠不夠的國家我們一直在插雷彈"},{"start":11262.642,"end":11280.2,"text":"關務署這邊我們有所謂的關稅也是我們的工具那目前為止如果按照川普他們的智庫提出來的有幾個國家第一個是中國第二印度、歐盟、台灣、越南跟泰國如果按照他們的標準要提升所謂的平均關稅差距的話"},{"start":11281.281,"end":11309.916,"text":"嚴重影響的大概是印度他會提升到88%逆差將近會減少88%臺灣也蠻嚴重會影響到59%第三名是越南44%也就是說他對中國的逆差還沒有像我們這個差距來的這麼大所以其實工研院我們也很擔心接下來會影響到的關稅我想請問一下如果他們提升關稅部長我們有沒有相對應的武器可以使用"},{"start":11312.381,"end":11325.354,"text":"他們對我們加徵關稅我們也可以對大家加徵關稅嗎?我覺得這個部分變成是一個貿易的一個互相的一個報復那我們看到我們輸出到美國的主要的產品裡面"},{"start":11326.112,"end":11328.033,"text":"所以關稅我們台灣的關稅沒什麼用是嗎?"},{"start":11351.46,"end":11354.382,"text":"因為我們是WTO的會員,所以相關的稅率我們是按照部委的﹗"},{"start":11368.17,"end":11396.267,"text":"報告委員我們的那個稅率都是立法院要三讀通過是所以我們立法院要幫你的忙否則你沒有工具是嗎就是各部會如果評估的話這個是我們接下去要做相關的處理重點是我再講一條一次要付保護費要知道自己要付什麼保護費然後我們有什麼因應之道有什麼辦法可以應對我想這個是我們今天關心的焦點好嗎好署長請回我想請部長留步那請賦稅署署長"},{"start":11398.066,"end":11398.147,"text":"國產署署長"},{"start":11403.561,"end":11430.547,"text":"部長其實我們在司法院的統計裡面看到最高行政法院他其實有非常多行政訴訟的狀況那行政訴訟的數量裡面統計出來對第一名的叫做土地事件大概有118件的行政訴訟那這是最高法院稅捐事件大概是113件這兩個就將近佔了三成到四成所以土地事件稅捐事件大概都是財政部的案子對吧"},{"start":11431.448,"end":11449.965,"text":"你們一年有多少相關的訴訟案件?您是指司法院裡面還是行政法院裡面?司法院統計年報最高行政法院有統計第一名叫土地第二名叫稅捐第一個跟委員報告國產署這個部分大概他是屬於私權的部分所以他應該是走民事訴訟的部分"},{"start":11450.365,"end":11474.314,"text":"在行政救濟的部分其實大部分他不會走到行政救濟那邊來所以土地的案件大概土地的案件大概可能就是屬於一般的民事案件大概跟國產署之間的其實應該沒有那麼大的高的數量我們現在統計的是行政訴訟案對行政訴訟來說土地的案件應該不會在國產署這邊的沒關係我現在問你一年要花有多少這樣的訴訟件數復稅數就復稅的部分請署長來就統計數字"},{"start":11479.557,"end":11492.072,"text":"我跟委員報告目前我們手上的統計數字就是打到行政訴訟的如果是中央稅的部分佔比是大概百分之我以112年度為例大概佔比是8.45%就2744件裡面屬稅捐案件是232件"},{"start":11497.799,"end":11526.389,"text":"那地方的部分呢是2319件裡面稅捐的案件17件占比是0.73%相對的是說國產署還有賦稅署其實跟民眾的官司其實不少那在112年的時候行政院曾經頒定一個計畫就是有關律師法跟專計轉任公務員條例增訂了所謂機關跟公立學校可以設置所謂的公職律師的制度部長"},{"start":11527.789,"end":11550.44,"text":"這個公職律師的制度要延攬一定職業經歷的律師來機關裡面提供相關的服務還有參與法律案的研議但是在112年提出這個計畫之後財政部如果依照你們有這麼多的相關的訴訟也好不管是民事的還是行政訴訟你有考慮引進行政院這樣的計畫嗎"},{"start":11552.742,"end":11581.14,"text":"目前為止好像只有衛福部還有國防部有來申請財政部從頭到尾連提計畫都沒有是嗎對我們大概調查過其實認為沒有這樣的一個需要因為目前相關的我們相關的訴訟會由我們內部的法務人員來做如果有需要的話也會委請外部的律師所以部長我想問一下請你統計你現在所有的機關你一年有花了多少相關的費用在請律師"},{"start":11582.757,"end":11593.045,"text":"所以如果按照你剛剛講的那些訴訟因為行政訴訟是律師強制代理所以如果有的話是不是會變成賦稅署他的一個負擔"},{"start":11596.205,"end":11619.537,"text":"這個部分我們來調查一下相關我們在所以我的意思是說行政院有這樣的計畫相關的單位有提出需求但是我們看到可能最多行政訴訟的機關叫財政部但是他們完全不甩這個行政院這個機制有點奇怪這個機制難道我們行政院推動來之後自己的機關都不願意參與這很奇怪"},{"start":11621.475,"end":11648.48,"text":"我現在看到教育部還希望有17個內政部2個國防部3個財政部0個欸財政部有這麼多行政訴訟拜託我覺得公職律師如果是有需要的話其實可以節省我們的成本而且也可以讓更多在你的內部就可以做相關的處理如果你花的錢可以請到公職律師在裡面可以節省掉成本第二個也可以增加"},{"start":11649.656,"end":11670.041,"text":"期關參與行政院推出這個法案推出這個計畫的好意啊好不好所以財政部所來不考慮行政院這個計畫不是不考慮我們還是要了解一下第一個就是實際的效益情況112年到現在了已經多了一年多了我們也調查過只有國防部還有衛福部所以其他的機關我覺得財政部也應該參與討論好嗎這是你算一算你每年花的錢跟你"},{"start":11678.106,"end":11690.536,"text":"用公職律師花的錢還有效益上面我覺得希望你們做個評估尤其是你們訴訟大概是全部機關裡面應該是最多的我們在效益的部分再來考量"},{"start":11691.854,"end":11712.773,"text":"那就麻煩一個月之內把這個部分回覆給我最後一個問題就是部長你這幾天大概都在討論財化法的問題啦財化法現在國民黨的修法版本好像還沒有確定但是民進黨還有行政院目前也是不推動相關的修法但是部長在今年11月"},{"start":11714.794,"end":11733.154,"text":"蕭美琴副總統曾經參與了工商總會的慶祝大會工商總會在2023、2024的全國工業總會白皮書裡面都有明白的提出來他們建議要修正財政收支劃分法部長有看到他們的白皮書嗎?"},{"start":11736.032,"end":11747.792,"text":"所以如果說執政黨要用在野黨和修財化法是為了掏空國家所以也是把工業總會列為掏空國家的一個對象嗎?"},{"start":11750.215,"end":11771.033,"text":"最主要是說因為在沒有完整的討論審慎的規劃之前所以我們希望你們完整討論希望你們審慎規劃但是不是提出修正意見就是掏空國家我要再次強調工業總會也提一樣的意見財政部不要再假裝沒看見"},{"start":11773.005,"end":11793.172,"text":"這個白皮書已經2023、2024的白皮書都已經做成而且副總統也是參加工業總會的慶祝大會我想還是一樣接下去財委會包括院會都會處理財化法我希望部長你們還是要提出你們認為多少的垂直分配是可以接受的"},{"start":11793.712,"end":11806.948,"text":"如果在一個國家可以超徵4千億的情況下補足2千多億讓地方政府能夠多一點財源並不是萬惡不赦部長我希望在我們協商之前可以看到行政院的版本"},{"start":11808.412,"end":11808.432,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":11836.71,"end":11852.99,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員接著我們請吳立華委員謝謝謝謝主席有請部長請莊部長"},{"start":11858.191,"end":11870.627,"text":"等下會涉及到國庫署、賦稅署。委員好。部長好。部長,你有聽過小米酒嗎?有啊。喝過嗎?喝過啊。好喝嗎?"},{"start":11871.391,"end":11875.754,"text":"因為這個傳統釀酒的文化曾經就是在接觸我們國民政府時代那因為酒的取得越來越便宜越來越方便所以傳統釀酒文化就失傳"},{"start":11900.963,"end":11919.06,"text":"現在很多時候甚至是透過部落大學大家會透過活動、研習、課程等等來辦理如何製作傳統的小米酒可是很容易被檢舉"},{"start":11920.683,"end":11946.871,"text":"那被檢舉之後呢很容易就會被開罰像新聞這個畫面當年很出名的原因是他本身是頭目那按照文化呢祭典一定要有頭目他們親自釀的酒可是遭人檢舉整個那一次祭典的酒全部被帶走他們耿耿於懷喔"},{"start":11947.791,"end":11955.108,"text":"他們覺得很奇怪到現在都還沒有還他們喔但是我要講的是說為什麼會有人檢舉"},{"start":11956.553,"end":11985.416,"text":"因為就是有處罰的問題那有哪些法呢舉個例子像菸酒管理法還有他的一些相關規定現在有提到可以私釀自用他的規範是每戶100公升以下供自用就不罰但是如果你販售即便未滿100公升會開罰什麼呢私釀跟違法販售"},{"start":11986.721,"end":12004.632,"text":"要不然你就要去申請制酒業者所以我們通常就是會去找一些有酒牌的像一般制酒業者、農民或原住民制酒業者但是他因為會涉及到土地的問題、廠房的問題其實手續很繁複"},{"start":12008.274,"end":12033.666,"text":"而且門檻很高所以通常也不太有人會去做這樣的事情導致大家通常都必須要去找到一些有酒牌的合作但是利潤很低我要講的就是說他其實是不利於商業化那我們先講開罰的問題我剛剛提到的那些其實大家一直沒弄懂當有人檢舉警察來了"},{"start":12035.612,"end":12055.283,"text":"我們都不曉得說他到底是怎麼認定的所以我想先請教請教那個部長以前就是被抓到有私釀販賣再犯的話他是加倍罰現在那個罰還在嗎因為我也關心過質詢過"},{"start":12058.849,"end":12079.225,"text":"這個部分執行的細節我可不可以請署長來做說嗎?好,謝謝署長。我們這個都是按照菸酒管理法裡面的規定在處罰,沒有說加倍啊。那就是稅啊?稅?沒有,不是。稅的部分。"},{"start":12080.609,"end":12100.858,"text":"包括委員目前對112年度來調查過因為委員關心這一點特別去調查沒有裁罰的案件就是沒有加倍罰沒有像有些他私釀喔被抓被檢舉他也不過賣個兩瓶然後他再犯結果變成以前是50萬後來變成100萬"},{"start":12104.886,"end":12126.384,"text":"我明天主席法我非常確認112年度沒有財法的案件那沒關係先確認一下因為我有確認過應該是你們修掉了好沒關係那我先問一下部長如果說幫鄰居製作然後收取公本費這樣子有沒有違法"},{"start":12127.398,"end":12147.848,"text":"那法律應該沒有禁止這樣做沒有禁止這樣做那再請教一下如果朋友來到家裡看到他自製的小米酒他就想要跟主人說不要送啦我補貼你一點成分這樣算不算販售違法"},{"start":12149.957,"end":12151.838,"text":"那請問像這種祭典陳列在那邊的祭典用酒有沒有違法為什麼他沒收之後也不返還"},{"start":12180.551,"end":12199.447,"text":"委員您是不是可以告訴我們實際案例,我們確實去了解一下到底是什麼樣的信息以及引用的是哪一個法規,確實是這樣好,那就再到辦公室,我會把這些案件做一個釐清嘛,對不對為什麼我要這樣子講,因為你就是有那個法債嘛"},{"start":12200.436,"end":12224.159,"text":"所以就會有人檢舉嘛有檢舉呢那個認定也不知道怎麼認定然後就開罰其實這個是很微薄很小的事情可是我們的族人往往會面對很嚴重的一個罰則跟罰金說實在他們來澄清有時候我們也不知道怎麼幫忙其實你們的這些財稅局單位"},{"start":12225.94,"end":12235.403,"text":"說實在也很同情可是法就是在那邊也不知道要怎麼幫忙而且是很重很重那我現在是要想第二個問題我要講的是財政部、國庫署、賦稅署"},{"start":12241.107,"end":12241.127,"text":"第8條"},{"start":12260.455,"end":12282.85,"text":"他的課稅啤酒是用每公升徵收26元其他釀酒他是每公升按酒精成分每度徵收7台幣7元那蒸餾酒類的也是每公升每度再制酒類呢他也是每公升每度"},{"start":12283.82,"end":12301.329,"text":"料理酒每公升徵收新台幣9元其他酒類每公升每度徵收7元酒精是每公升徵收15元所以我們可以看到那個有每度的就很可怕了"},{"start":12302.009,"end":12325.948,"text":"以我們一瓶1000cc的小米酒假設它的販售價格一般是賣350元可是因為它的酒精濃度15%它就變成要105元的稅金所以利潤很薄所以我們常常講文化不應該是只有在博物館裡面的博物館化"},{"start":12326.909,"end":12342.685,"text":"我們文化如果沒有辦法邁向經濟的行為他就何以為繼無以為繼所以我常常覺得原住民的文化受到限制很多所以聯合國他們一直也很重視這個問題所以我要講的是"},{"start":12345.968,"end":12373.925,"text":"其實我們在很多的像臺紐經濟貿易協定這個是我們前幾年很重要的第一個協定喔國際協定他就有原住民專章那當然很多年前我們在炒的米酒之亂他也是因為WTO的互惠原則可是我們很認真很努力的談判最後談出一個料理酒的每公升酒源"},{"start":12375.37,"end":12397.561,"text":"我要說的是我們能不能夠也很努力的去為原住民在地的本土文化來去做一個談判因為這也是我們的飲食文化我們也可以用原住民專章的概念來去做研議調整我想聽聽看就是部長您的看法"},{"start":12399.898,"end":12425.58,"text":"委員對於我們原住民的生活文化其實也是生活的一部分其實就是他們的日常生活比如釀酒也是他們長久歷史以來所存下來的那在這個部分能不能有一些特別性的一些做一些不同的規範我想這個部分我們可以研議好不好好 謝謝部長因為這個很重要啊我們看到其實這幾年我們也都被鼓勵"},{"start":12426.721,"end":12446.938,"text":"生物多樣性、多元文化、文化來附贈但是原住民的文化這一百年來你應該很清楚日本人進來大概就死掉三分之二國民政府再來透過各種的法令我們的文化曾經一度真的是已經業客磨叽了"},{"start":12447.719,"end":12466.564,"text":"那這幾年很謝謝從2000年以後從陳水扁政府時期非常的重視原住民的文化復正那族群主流化也是賴清德總統很重要的一個政見所有的原住民轉型正義應該要落實到各個部會"},{"start":12467.404,"end":12483.157,"text":"所以像很多法令的限制那個是掐死我們的命脈所以呢很高興聽到部長您這麼說願意來想辦法研議那我希望這個要有期程要有積極性的作為可以嗎部長謝謝委員好謝謝部長那也請兩個署可以一同的來努力好謝謝主席"},{"start":12493.805,"end":12519.293,"text":"謝謝吳立法委員可以提案修正菸酒稅法我會支持我們也會提接著那個你要不要跟孟愷換一下孟愷沒有來嗎還沒啦對的就是不是啊王世堅委員來了嘛讓他先那個嘛跟洪孟愷委員換一下嘛不要OK好洪孟愷你要先念嗎"},{"start":12521.127,"end":12530.31,"text":"邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉不在、鄭振銓、鄭振銓、鄭振銓不在、鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才不在、葉遠之、葉遠之、葉遠之不在。"},{"start":12554.35,"end":12555.751,"text":"租賃公司成了二職建商養地草房"},{"start":12583.052,"end":12600.858,"text":"他們很大的幫兇也就是說我們本國銀行受信透過租賃公司受信的額度3892億裡面八家公股行戶佔了1359億而這三大租賃公司數條三兄弟最大"},{"start":12609.329,"end":12613.413,"text":"他們佔了這1359億裡面非常大的一個額度是借給這些惡質建商那麽本來我們政府中央銀行的規定對於說行庫銀行貸款"},{"start":12632.101,"end":12654.481,"text":"給建商本來有個限制限制就是說你不能超過當時存款金額的百分之三十有這個限制嘛但是額外開了一個巧門給這薯條三兄弟的時候變成薯條三兄弟是一個很大的破口所以這個部分"},{"start":12655.629,"end":12671.974,"text":"我認為公股、行庫責無旁貸當然是由財政部因為你們掌管了公股、行庫的股份董事長、總經理都是你派的那這個部分你認為應該怎麼處理"},{"start":12674.802,"end":12695.382,"text":"謝謝委員對於這個有關融資租賃公司的資金的一個運用那也跟委員報告目前八家公股行戶貸給融資租賃業的大概1100億那給三大融資租賃公司目前的貸款餘額是617億那至於剛剛委員所提到那個確實是就是說融資公司如果把錢"},{"start":12696.923,"end":12713.713,"text":"借給不動產業者的話那就破了那個銀行法72條之二那個30%的一個變成一個漏洞甚至有沒有可能融資公司另外成一個投資公司然後透過投資公司又去代給不動產業者這個確實要非常的重視那我們這個部分呢金管會也已經正在處理那我們對於公股、行庫的部分我們也請他們在上個禮拜五還是禮拜十就已經請"},{"start":12723.663,"end":12745.496,"text":"他們來告訴他們說這個要加強查核第一個 一個加強貸錢的審核第二個就最重要是貸後管理就是他的資金流向要能夠確實去檢核是不是原來跟你貸款的資金的用途是不是用在那個方面而還是走到另外一個管道去流到不動產這個部分確實要做加強的檢核如同委員所說的對貸後的這個"},{"start":12748.137,"end":12749.799,"text":"那經濟部只能依公司法管"},{"start":12777.711,"end":12793.37,"text":"我為什麼提到這個問題非得財政部處理不可因為公營行庫其他民營行庫那當然這不關財政部的事但是公營行庫他是我們財政部掌管公股"},{"start":12794.198,"end":12813.062,"text":"而且掌管了他們的董事長總經理所以你有交辦他們去查查這點很好但是我希望你給他們一個期限他多久時間內給你一份報告可不可以查查說他在授信前的"},{"start":12814.059,"end":12841.869,"text":"管理、待放跟受信號的追蹤這個部分（可以（他要一個報告給你可不可以（可以我們一個月以內一個月以內（一個月以內（對（好那我搞不懂的就是說我們這些公營銀行戶有的很規矩啦你像第一銀行這種就規規矩矩彰化銀行也算規矩我上次就跟你講過我覺得不可思議像土地銀行想方設法"},{"start":12842.898,"end":12862.654,"text":"要把我們供股的錢供股行庫的錢這是來自於我們人民辛辛苦苦的血汗錢去存款想方設法硬是要把它搬給這些二值的建商就是我上個禮拜在講的啊總共中央銀行另外規定貸款給建商購買空地"},{"start":12872.009,"end":12895.748,"text":"18個月內一定要動工的這一條規定竟然有2180億這麼大這麼龐大的金額裡面有1100億是由土地銀行另外其他公股加起來也1000億的資金縱容給這些惡質建商去買地養地圈地難怪"},{"start":12897.149,"end":12917.469,"text":"難怪我們臺灣四處22縣市從臺北市帶頭一路下來每個縣市房地產都在大漲那導致我們一般生土小民買不到房屋那買到房屋的現在也變成屋奴因為高房價"},{"start":12919.295,"end":12943.325,"text":"那我們的中產階級本來還有餘裕的全部大家辛苦的血汗錢都被這個高房價那導致高房貸全部成為巫奴所以我們公營行戶不應該當作二職建商的幫兇不能助紂為虐啦所以"},{"start":12945.936,"end":12957.832,"text":"另外這2180億超過18個月供股航顧貸款給這些二職建商的部分這個部分我要求你也應該"},{"start":12959.79,"end":12980.415,"text":"要求公股、航空他們對這個部分做出追蹤然後做一個報告給財政部可不可以（可以這個部分我們會繼續追蹤（請他們積極的想出怎麼樣的方式去追回這些貸款去增加他們的利息額度、抬高額度"},{"start":12981.095,"end":13005.932,"text":"我逼死建商要不你就規規矩矩開工要不你就把錢還給我們跟銀行戶這樣才對嘛不是嗎另外第二個問題就是說我一直認為我們國家我們這個囤房稅率太低啦你現在把囤房稅率的最高級距你定為4.8那事實上在很多縣市政府齁坦白講"},{"start":13009.841,"end":13032.22,"text":"有幾個縣市政府齁我用四個字形容啦陽奉陰違啦我們有訂了這個稅率額度但是他們又害怕得罪這些草房族們所以都適度多次把他們調降我以新北市做例子"},{"start":13033.16,"end":13059.466,"text":"新北市2018年把非自用住宅稅率從2.4%降到1.5%新竹縣也是把非自住的住宅稅率從2.5%降到1.6%所以很多地方政府因為不得罪所以就陽奉陰違所以我認為"},{"start":13062.085,"end":13071.153,"text":"是不是我們應該把稅率基準直接把它入到入法林 入到我們定"},{"start":13072.498,"end":13093.282,"text":"的這個法律稅法裡面直接把它定到法律裡面這個稅率那才不會讓各縣市政府礙於人情礙於各種奇奇怪怪的方式那個部長你知道嗎我們從這5年來啊這5年來我們囤房的人數從45萬增加到54萬這5年來喔囤房的人數"},{"start":13104.451,"end":13131.508,"text":"45萬6千8百人2019年到今年54萬5千5百人增加了9萬人來加入囤房草房這是不可思議的事情所以部長現在的高房價現在大家的草房、囤房"},{"start":13133.052,"end":13143.159,"text":"我個人認為最直接的方式就是從囤房稅我們應該直接立法而且直接提高 你看法呢"},{"start":13144.514,"end":13163.3,"text":"跟委員報告這一次房屋稅條例的修正以後把相關的稅率有做一些調整那而且是全國歸戶而且是全數累進如果說他的房屋超過一定的數額的話是每一間都按這個高的稅率來課徵那另外除了稅率之外我們還是要考慮稅基的問題"},{"start":13164.5,"end":13180.799,"text":"我們也督促各地方政府要去調整他的稅基也就是房屋課稅限制一定要去調如果你的稅率只是稅率調而稅基不去調的話根本達不到這樣的一個加重持有成本的就是說囤房的一個持有成本的這個部分所以這個兩路必須要並進"},{"start":13181.94,"end":13210.538,"text":"那另外呢因為我們這個囤房稅這個部分是今年7月1號開始實施明年就開單那在整個來看我們會按照他的實施的情形來再做滾動的一個看檢視有沒有要做滾動的檢討其實還沒滾動之前我現在就預見到啦就我剛剛跟你講的嘛我認為這個稅率過低你算最高級距4.8而已嘛那比方說像新北市像新竹市他們地方政府擅自"},{"start":13211.627,"end":13238.208,"text":"去把這個稅率調降基本上就不對啊就違反我們財政部要求的這個精神第一個我們在囤房的部分1.5的部分最主要是它有出租的部分也就是我們鼓勵我有房子除了自住以外我閒置的房子我就要用高的稅率但是如果我出租的話我就用1.5是希望把空的房子釋出來讓房屋的租賃市場有更充足的一個屋源這個部分另外如果說"},{"start":13238.948,"end":13264.67,"text":"他規定的稅率和行我們財政部有定一個參考的稅率基準如果他沒有按照我們的稅率基準而且比我們這個低的話他如果有稅損的話中央是不給予補貼補助的有相關的有些道理但是我把結論跟你講結論是現在我們整體啊我們國家到今年為止空污率5年內的新房喔空污率高達34%"},{"start":13267.572,"end":13295.805,"text":"每三戶有一戶是空屋所以已經到這樣的地步已經很清楚很明顯的看到有草房族、囤房族他們運用我們稅制上這一部分寬鬆、稅率過低他們加緊草房、囤房所以導致真正需要房屋的青年朋友們、深斗小民們"},{"start":13299.235,"end":13322.765,"text":"這個購屋之徒遙遙無期不打緊現在連租屋都成了大問題所以租屋的部分我下次再跟你談部長我要求你的就是財政部要拿出態度拿出主張而且要堅定堅定的這麼說要求公營航庫對於空地稅對於借庫"},{"start":13324.246,"end":13346.27,"text":"把大量的金額2180億貸款給這些二值高負債建商去買地、養地、圈地這個一定要提出辦法叫他們交出這個報告限期他們要去改善第二點對於貸款給鼠條山兄弟也是要求他們一個月內做出這個報告要不然"},{"start":13346.81,"end":13348.252,"text":"今天登記的發言的委員都已經詢答完畢"},{"start":13368.652,"end":13380.174,"text":"本次會議做如下決議說明及詢答完畢委員執行為其答覆或請補充資訊請財政部於週內以書面答覆委員要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":13382.233,"end":13396.121,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、歲出預算部分暨"},{"start":13401.784,"end":13421.816,"text":"融資財源調度均令則其繼續審查本次會議委員若有相關預算提案請於11月25日星期中午12點以前競送財政委員會議事人員收件本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理上會謝謝"},{"start":13434.582,"end":13456.095,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":13461.703,"end":13474.05,"text":"月19日,國有財政部財政部委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13478.029,"end":13495.896,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13511.971,"end":13536.54,"text":"6月1日, 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外部則透過關稅戰外交施壓,"},{"start":716.311,"end":716.951,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":783.432,"end":785.893,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":872.206,"end":873.187,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":902.205,"end":906.75,"text":"上次報告的時候覺得這樣,但這次如果我回裡面的時候,你會被搞砸嗎?就我經驗的IPUB啊"},{"start":953.629,"end":960.894,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":966.023,"end":977.389,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1012.807,"end":1013.008,"text":"主席"},{"start":1105.644,"end":1108.365,"text":"他知道 有 我知道"},{"start":1143.96,"end":1156.063,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1169.386,"end":1170.406,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1188.032,"end":1194.234,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1220.148,"end":1239.219,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1247.335,"end":1249.019,"text":"本期視頻到此結束"},{"start":1285.311,"end":1285.432,"text":"本集完"},{"start":1325.201,"end":1326.442,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1363.643,"end":1370.687,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1393.204,"end":1393.765,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1871.787,"end":1874.611,"text":"報告委員會出席委員9人以足法定人數開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1884.229,"end":1909.439,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年11月14日星期四上午9時1分至10時50分地點紅樓301會議室出席委員黃仁等9人、列席委員賴士寶等13人請教委員林益君、林楚英、列席人員國家安全局局長蔡明彥及所屬人員、行政院主計總處專門委員邱碧珠"},{"start":1911.099,"end":1928.306,"text":"主席王昭吉委員定語。報告事項,宣讀上次會議議事錄,決定確定。討論事項,審查114年度中央政府總預算案,關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分僅詢答。國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告,委員盧美琳等9人質詢。"},{"start":1929.446,"end":1957.345,"text":"均由國家安全局局長蔡明彥及特勤中心理副指揮官等即席答覆決議一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢為其答覆或要求提供資資訊請國家安全局於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並附資本會委員令指定期限則從其所定三委員林益君、陳永康及林楚英等三人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報四本案令則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1963.082,"end":1989.975,"text":"請問在場委員對上次會議的議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處?議事錄確定,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告．AI技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應．並備質詢。宣讀完畢"},{"start":1994.69,"end":1997.352,"text":"我們介紹在場的委員陳永康委員羅美玲委員介紹與會官員國家安全局局長蔡明彥副局長張元斌數位發展部政務次長林怡進"},{"start":2023.397,"end":2025.298,"text":"數位策略司司長蔡壽權、資通安全署組長趙游進、數位產業組組長林青青、國家資通安全研究院主任侯游民、法務部調查局副局長吳富梅、"},{"start":2051.607,"end":2072.61,"text":"支托安全處處長張游仁、國內安全調查處副處長張傳志、內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長林信雄、科技犯罪防治中心主任林建榮、"},{"start":2075.695,"end":2082.296,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會前瞻及應用科技處處長蔡妙慈本日會議邀請國安局、數位發展部、調查局、警政署及國科會報告．AI技術在資安、深偽）影片及錯假訊息的影響評估及因應．並備質詢首先我們請國安局蔡局長上台報告"},{"start":2118.355,"end":2139.541,"text":"主席、主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生、大家早。感謝大院安排本局進行AI技術在資安、深偽影片以及錯假訊息的影響評估跟因應專題報告。本局僅以重禮國家安全情報工作立場提出意見跟說明如下。第一部分是有關於威脅評估。近年來AI人工智慧得益於高速電腦的發展。"},{"start":2141.181,"end":2164.917,"text":"算力快速的精進數據資料的儲存以及新接晶片的製成相關的發展快速的促成了深層式AI聯網車、遠距監控以及無人載具等領域的廣泛的運用導致各國也開始制定相對應的法規來進行監管來爭奪數位主權的主導地位然而依附在AI新興威脅出現各種新式的問題怎麼樣來防範這些威脅遠比因應傳統威脅來得更具挑戰"},{"start":2171.341,"end":2196.017,"text":"三點重要的威脅供各位委員先進參考一、AI普及降低運用的門檻AI的運用原來需要很多自籌的技術跟算力等等的資源但是隨著Google、OpenAI等跨國企業商業模式越來越成熟以及多項開源程式公開來示眾那大幅的降低了技術跟資金的成本使得AI的運用更加的普及也給予有心人士可乘之機"},{"start":2197.386,"end":2217.646,"text":"二、AI的技術武器化衍生新興的挑戰。關於一、擴增資安威脅的風險．AI可以用來處理自動化的分析．並且針對網路防禦的弱點來進行一些攻擊．同時可以來找出軟硬體設備的各種的漏洞．並且生成變種的病毒．來強化逆中躲避必要的偵測"},{"start":2218.587,"end":2230.582,"text":"另外,AI也可以來優化分散式阻斷服務的攻擊的強度和模式,並且有效地來調控僵屍網路,使得網路的攻擊變得更具有自動化、隱匿化和隨機化的特色。"},{"start":2232.937,"end":2250.736,"text":"產制偽製證訊誤導視聽．AI透由簡易的編輯．重新利用圖像．以及編造特定人士的影音等等的方式．可以來製造難以辨識的證訊．並且投放到公開網路的平臺．進而來誤導民眾的視聽．同時也可以來消耗政府應處跟查查的能量"},{"start":2252.934,"end":2271.944,"text":"快速傳播錯假的訊息AI工具可以依照腳本來杜撰錯假的訊息並且結合到假帳號以及機器人來使得傳散的速度具有超高速跟無差別等等的特性那近期美國國家情報總監的辦公室已經對外來公開示警"},{"start":2272.705,"end":2282.719,"text":"認為外國的敵對勢力正在利用AI的技術在大選期間來散佈相關的錯假訊息企圖來影響選舉的公平性跟正當性同時來擴大社會大眾對於選舉結果的疑慮"},{"start":2286.623,"end":2308.993,"text":"3.缺乏資安意識,造成資料外洩的風險。去年的4月,外國半導體公司的員工曾經將內部機敏的程式碼上傳到深層式AI的工具平台,但是這樣的一個動作卻導致了他們內部研發的機密資料外洩,因為這些資料一旦上傳到AI的工具平台就沒有辦法來刪除,所以使用商規的AI工具"},{"start":2309.833,"end":2329.532,"text":"很有可能因為缺乏相關的警覺意識造生資料外洩的一個風險第二部分是有關於影響跟應處這也是分為有四大點來跟各位委員做個報告一、講說中共往害跟錯假訊息的活動歐美等國已經陸續的公開示警指出中共運用AI的技術、稅刑、害侵"},{"start":2330.273,"end":2343.054,"text":"更洩露．本局已透過國際友盟的合作．針對中共網攻的手法．攻擊了組織、錯假訊息傳散的樣態等等．來加強分享相關的請記之．以便來強化數位聯防以及錯假訊息．跨國應處的機制"},{"start":2346.732,"end":2369.519,"text":"2、運用公司協力反制AI的威脅．中共已藉軍民融合加強AI網路作戰的能量．試機來進行網害．投放錯假訊息以及破壞關鍵基礎設施．本局會持續地透由公司協力的模式．將AI的技術結合到資安防護的機制．來強化網害增防的技術．同時也會來提升影音跟影片人物．偽辨識的能力"},{"start":2370.839,"end":2389.589,"text":"另外本局也會採取反制AI的模式即時來發掘未知妄害的威脅同時來厚植錯假訊息防制的效能以便來協助政府強化關鍵基礎設施的韌性。統合國安團隊預應AI的侵擾為了因應中共運用AI技術對我洗腦"},{"start":2390.249,"end":2408.183,"text":"本局已經統合國安團隊來預應,透過情報會議及教育訓練來強化情搜統合及分享的機制,另外也會將影響國安、涉案等妄害威脅預警情資及錯假訊息及時通報權責單位來做必要應處及偵測的阻擋,以便來有效防堵威脅的噪聲。"},{"start":2409.384,"end":2426.323,"text":"是配合政府建立AI監管的法尊由於AI衍生安全威脅越來越重大世界各國都定有監管、審查、評估跟認證的相關法令規範我國全職機關目前也正在研擬人工智慧基本法的草案本局會適時的來掌握"},{"start":2426.943,"end":2443.319,"text":"收言、威脅的樣態、送餐也來協助訂定符合保障我們國人權益以及國家安全的法規另外本局已經在去年訂定使用深層式人工智慧作業的規定以便確保本局內部資訊作業的安全第三大部分也是最後一部分結語"},{"start":2444.44,"end":2465.885,"text":"近年來AI技術快速的發展對資安跟錯假訊息的防治構成非常嚴峻的挑戰本局除了透過國際合作交流AI的情收也會透過多元的模式來加強AI資源情報作業能力以便及時掌搜相關的威脅情資有效來防範潛在的國安威脅以上的報告進行大院各位委員先進不定指導謝謝"},{"start":2473.683,"end":2475.845,"text":"接著我們請速發部林政務次長進行報告"},{"start":2498.735,"end":2511.833,"text":"主席．各位委員．今天應邀列席貴委員會．數發部針對委員所提AI技術在資安、深偽．Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應．提出報告．並備質詢．盡情指教"},{"start":2514.807,"end":2542.777,"text":"AI技術的發展正在改變我們的生活和工作方式隨著技術的持續進步未來將會出現更多創新應用同時也需要關注倫理和數位影響數法部作為資通安全與數位經濟相關產業的主管機關對於AI技術在資安、深偽（影片及錯假訊息之影響持續關注並延期評估以立即早防護與因應僅就目前評估該況說明如下"},{"start":2544.503,"end":2569.865,"text":"國外知名資安公司CloudStrike近期研究指出．當前AI驅動的網路攻擊已經發展出多種形態．例如AI用於社交工程攻擊．可自動辨識最佳攻擊的目標．產生並建立可信的假身份資訊．開發合理的攻擊場景．並生成個人化訊息及多媒體內容．以獲取敏感資料、系統存取權限和資金轉賬．請參閱附錄一"},{"start":2573.666,"end":2601.106,"text":"根據微軟與OpenAI的最近研究觀察目前全球主要的駭客組織與國家網軍已將AI、LM技術整合為提升工作效率的輔助工具請參見附錄二這些AI技術會使得駭客得以精準的擴大攻擊表面及找到正確的攻擊入口同時加速並提高攻擊鏈整體的成功機率在錯假訊息方面根據Sentinel10"},{"start":2603.366,"end":2626.082,"text":"Sentenance One與EU的觀察．AI與深度偽造．已經成為發起輿論戰的重要工具．例如運用深度偽造技術．建立令人信以為真的照片、影像．在透過AI辨識目標群體．並根據目標所處的同溫層．精準打造與投放目標所關注的議題．來左右輿論的風向．"},{"start":2627.663,"end":2648.758,"text":"達成否定政府信任的戰略目的這些AI技術的組合讓網軍可以大量建立多樣態的錯假內容提高訊息內容的複雜度與抗辨識能力迴避利用自然語言處理技術的辨識工具同時也提高了辨識的人力耗費在因應作為方面"},{"start":2650.717,"end":2674.833,"text":"我們因應AI造成的資安威脅,資安院主要採取了兩大面向。一,在可能的攻擊途徑上建立多重柵欄。我們導入零信任架構的防禦機制,在每個可能的入侵路徑上,建立許多永不信任而且持續驗證的柵欄,讓AI就算能快速地找到正確的入口、途徑、攻擊鏈,也會到處碰壁而走不進去。"},{"start":2675.894,"end":2687.641,"text":"二、我們會以AI指導環視AI之聲,駭客利用AI加量與加速的攻擊,防守方也應採用AI來提高識別因應與阻擋數量與速度,以AI驅動"},{"start":2693.268,"end":2707.717,"text":"驅動目擊資料的分析與關聯技術整合AI對網路設備與服務的日誌資料的快速多維度分析能量強化原有以專家為主的資安事件分析能力有效預測攻擊點與動態防禦規則部署達成分析與解決方案一條龍產出的目標"},{"start":2713.641,"end":2725.522,"text":"另一方面,在面對利用錯假訊息的進行輿論戰方面,我們除了利用NLP技術之外,資安院目前也正結合不同的技術與發展多模態的辨識機制,"},{"start":2727.867,"end":2749.544,"text":"首先在AI錯假訊息的辨識技術上面這個技術結合自然語言處理就是所謂的NLP、大數據分析、人工智慧和機器學習等前瞻科技將文本投影制與預向量空間進行比對快速識別和分析潛在的錯假訊息進一步完成訊息的傳播鏈與源頭追蹤"},{"start":2754.5,"end":2772.716,"text":"在AI深度偽造辨識技術方面,我們透過整合多種深偽偵測的方法,這樣的技術可以用於偵測深偽圖像、影片和聲音,並且可以透過特徵細節變化如臉部變造和邊緣變造、快速辨識多媒體的真偽,以達成多模態的偵測目標。"},{"start":2774.477,"end":2795.829,"text":"除了透過技術手段外,最重要而且最有效的是人員培訓。我們需要持續提升人民對AI相關威脅的認識,建立積極的安全意識文化,強化人民識讀能力,如同零信任機制,保持對任何訊息的警覺性。上述相關建議,皆已納入本部各項資安推動工作中,持續進行。"},{"start":2797.47,"end":2819.16,"text":"總結來說AI等新興技術的衝擊和挑戰是多方面的涉及經濟、社會、倫理還有安全等領域我們應該針對這些挑戰我們的政府、企業還個人應該共同努力制定有效的策略和正確以確保技術的健康發展和社會的可持續進步以上報告謝謝其他機關報告請參閱書面資料"},{"start":2834.375,"end":2852.91,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理這裡做一個宣告國安局蔡局長因為另有要工從10點40開始請假之後由張元斌副局長代理備詢現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2868.86,"end":2874.469,"text":"謝謝主席 有請速發部林正次請林正次委員好"},{"start":2881.877,"end":2908.891,"text":"這次好,這次有關於這個10月底10月底微軟它有提出了一份2024數位防疫報告裡面有提出來國家級的網路攻擊已經開始結合網路犯罪工具以及生成式的AI技術導致全球的資安危險是進一步來做升高那北京引用了這個報告的這個圖表我們可以看到在國家級網路的"},{"start":2909.771,"end":2911.412,"text":"這份報告也列出了網路攻擊的十大目標產業其中第一名就是我國的核心戰略產業之一的IT產業"},{"start":2932.762,"end":2959.941,"text":"那關於這個關鍵基礎設施的政府部門比如說像運輸業、金融業、資訊科技產業還有金融業等等的都是位列其中那一旦這些設施遭到攻擊的時候對社會穩定跟經濟的秩序就會帶來很直接而且巨大的衝擊那本席想請教的就是說在這個"},{"start":2962.322,"end":2978.844,"text":"在這個生成這個AI生成式的這個AI現在被廣泛地用在這種這個資安威脅當中那我們除了這個自動生成惡意程式之外因為我看到了各部會的報告裡面有特別有提到那像這個它可以自動生成"},{"start":2979.624,"end":2991.208,"text":"的這個程式之外能夠協助計劃跟管理復雜的這個攻擊流程像過去耗時的這個攻擊手段可以更快更頻繁的來做執行所以我有很詳細看了我們速發部的這個提交的這個報告裡面我們有看到"},{"start":2995.629,"end":3011.136,"text":"那我們目前是將這個零信任架構的這個防疫機制呢要導入到各行政機關就是要對這一個資安的防疫來做一些防護的這個措施那當然我們從這個表裡面可以看到初期當然是針對這個資安責任A級機關為優先並依序呢要導入這個身份"},{"start":3016.338,"end":3021.879,"text":"見別機制設備見別機制跟信任推斷機制可是我在查閱了這個訴發部資安署跟這個資安院這三個單位我們看近年來跟明年的這個預算書可以發現對於這個零信任架構的執行成果跟未來推動的目標各單位揭示的這個程度並不一致我們來看112年我們推動的這個成果本席有發現就訴發部已經完成了22個資安A級機關的身份見別機制"},{"start":3045.504,"end":3067.677,"text":"可是設備鑑別機制、信任推斷機制目前還沒有看到我們事務發布的資安署已經完成了兩個政府機關的設備鑑別機制然後國家資通安全研究院也完成兩個中央部會的設備鑑別機制那我再次看114年的預算書裏面可是我看到這個"},{"start":3068.658,"end":3094.218,"text":"可能很需要這個訴發部來做一個解釋為什麼我們只看到國家資通安全研究院是準備要導入19個資安A級的機關來做這個設備鑑別機制可是訴發部跟資安署這裡我沒有看到任何的這個設定的目標這個部分可以來解釋一下嗎那再來還有一點就是112年我們推動的成果這個我們已經完成我們已經導入了"},{"start":3094.718,"end":3096.239,"text":"關於那個零信任機制這個是我們訴發部持續在我們持續在推動的一個那個"},{"start":3124.434,"end":3127.397,"text":"因為我發現我們的這個預算書或是說這個存果的這個報道裡面我們這部分讓我們常常會有一些疑問為什麼你這個資料我們找不到"},{"start":3149.155,"end":3149.395,"text":"資安署"},{"start":3167.997,"end":3185.528,"text":"報告主席跟委員,資安署的部分就是有關民信院的計畫其實是資安署委託資安院合作一起導入執行的所以這個並不是只有資安院在執行,是我們一起在進行"},{"start":3185.948,"end":3214.383,"text":"是 是 我有看到是沒錯我是說為什麼有些進度我們看到就是說也看不到進度那而且47個身份要導入47 要完成47個身份鑑別機制也是我在媒體看到一般在你們報告書裡面看不到所以那剛剛鄭慈有提到說有碰到了一些阻礙是怎麼樣的阻礙嗎我們覺得零信任架構也推行了這麼多年了我們總覺得說這部分好像推得卡卡的這部分到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":3215.565,"end":3229.129,"text":"跟委員報告那個零信任機制是對抗駭客一個非常有效的手段但是對於那個一般的對所有使用者來講就是我每次在登入的時候比如說我那個密碼就必須重新再輸入等等他是有關關的關卡我們知道所以這個其實這是一個相對來講是比較安全的這個機制對可是為什麼我們在公部門會推行的覺得好像不是那麼的順利"},{"start":3242.403,"end":3268.961,"text":"再來講公文則要來配合來做才對啊報告委員資安署在辦理零信任部分是分三個階段在進行那他前兩年已經把零信任的前兩個階段導入到22個機關那接下來我們會針對47個機關進行所以並沒有是以逐步的計畫在進行那47個年底會完成嗎因為我在媒體看到說會完成"},{"start":3270.001,"end":3294.726,"text":"我們總共有49個A級的這個資安機關嘛49個因為文化部跟退府會在這個事辦的時候就已經完成了三個導入三個機制嘛所以我們剩下還47個總共還有47個那22個也在112年的時候已經完成身份鑑別機制了可是設備鑑別跟信任推斷這部分本席到目前都還沒有看到那剩下的呢我們47個總共會累計完成嗎"},{"start":3298.128,"end":3300.795,"text":"是,在今年年底就會完成47個A級機關的導入"},{"start":3304.267,"end":3328.745,"text":"那再來你看我們自己公務部門公務機關推行的好像都這麼卡卡的更何況我們還有44個資安A級特定非公務機關那什麼時候才能夠導入啊因為這些都是國家關鍵基礎設施的提供者像台電、中油、台大醫院、台鐵、高鐵銀行等等都是所以到目前這個都還沒有進度對不對"},{"start":3332.844,"end":3350.845,"text":"我們目前先導入的部分是公務機關那CI的部分我們會陸續在明年開始推動OK 好 這個要加油喔因為我們在資料上面真的看不到你們這些資料就覺得說這部分推行的好像不是那麼的順利那再來還有我在八月份的時候有看到就是我們黃部長呢"},{"start":3352.026,"end":3365.962,"text":"有提到就是說年底要推出人工智慧風險分級價這個框架我本來想說你們這次的報告書裡面會提到這部分可是發現你們自治會提那這個會議會來推行嗎他說年底就要推出了耶那這部分呢"},{"start":3368.123,"end":3388.41,"text":"關於人工智慧風險分級框架現在事實上是還在一個討論的階段最主要的問題是在於說歐盟跟美國的做法是非常不一樣的歐盟那邊他們是用分級的方式就是把人工智慧分成好幾個危險程度然後在最高的"},{"start":3390.09,"end":3416.793,"text":"最危險的那個層級他們是禁止使用的但是美國那邊呢他們是用分類而不是用分級的方式他們只是利用行政的就是行政部門由美國總統發出的名義簽署發布了一個指引就是說我們使用人工智慧有什麼危險那我們現在就是說因為美國他們認為說所謂的那個regulation hinder innovation他們的概念是這樣所以他們不希望就是"},{"start":3417.614,"end":3433.405,"text":"做這種明確的分析與禁止的那個動作那美國他們也明確的跟我們這些自由世界的這些那個那個夥伴國家跟我們講說他們不希望其他的國家是用那個歐盟那樣的方式因為歐盟那樣的方式的話會"},{"start":3435.267,"end":3454.222,"text":"會限制到的大部分的都是美國的公司因為我們知道現在在AI方面主要的進行先進研發的公司像OpenAI、Google、Meta都是美國的公司所以歐洲他們那邊他們是主張用那個限制的方式用立法限制的方式而美國那邊呢"},{"start":3454.923,"end":3455.844,"text":"人工智慧的風險分級框架現在目前是"},{"start":3481.8,"end":3485.401,"text":"目前人工智慧基本法是由國科會主導在推動的我們會配合國科會的計畫我們會努力做我們該做的事情"},{"start":3508.308,"end":3536.767,"text":"OK好那之前呢相關的這個AI的這個風險問題之前我跟國安會其實也做了很多的討論本期是建議像資安署、國安會還有國科會甚至我們資安研究院應該要成立一個類似跨部位類似這種AI資安的技術聯防的一個小組那我本來期待就是說我們的風險這個管理框架可以在年底的時候可以看得到可是目前正式的這個說話是這個部分還有很多討論的空間"},{"start":3537.968,"end":3557.409,"text":"是,這個不單單是我們台灣內部還有很多討論的空間,事實上在整個國際上,這個都是一個正在熱烈討論的議題。對,我們也有參考了其他國家比較成熟經驗的是RMF這個部分的話,像美國,它有提出了人工智慧風險管理框架,像這部分是不是也來做參考?"},{"start":3558.59,"end":3558.73,"text":"羅美玲委員"},{"start":3585.526,"end":3605.79,"text":"接下來我們請洪森翰委員上台質詢請官局蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":3613.859,"end":3630.127,"text":"謝謝主席、候委員長局長好,我們今天謝謝召委排定的專報主題當然討論的是AI、資安、國安等等的議題今天當然也比較想用更全面的角度來跟局長討論資訊戰或認知戰的問題"},{"start":3633.969,"end":3661.677,"text":"我們其實在目前有很多的這個研究的素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前其實他們就開始在推動所謂的媒體融合的這個全國的戰略那包括有幾個西方媒體包括像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等你都點出其實他們的這個宣傳系統是由他們這個共產黨跟國家很多個機構跟民間的機構一起來組成的"},{"start":3662.757,"end":3684.052,"text":"那其實在這個非常非常綿密的這個組織之下他其實現在某部分他已經實現了我們現在在說包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合最重要的事情是他是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構的機制那對進可攻退可守"},{"start":3685.573,"end":3694.59,"text":"那我其實很清楚知道我們當然現在很多部會我們都很努力的花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠"},{"start":3697.458,"end":3723.318,"text":"那我自己看了今天我們其實各部會提出來的這個報告的內容這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對這些都有但是我想問局長局長你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對比方說以中共目前在主導的他是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構"},{"start":3726.687,"end":3753.849,"text":"然後動用所有他狹下可動用的所有的媒體新舊媒體的宣傳資源你覺得我們靠事後的事後闢謠能夠應對得了嗎?這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論那基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息的一個傳散那第一部分當然有個應處的機制去收報跟通報以及回應這大概是既有的運作機制局長這是我說的啊這只是事後的闢謠事後的事實查核啊"},{"start":3754.708,"end":3778.111,"text":"委員提到了說我們自己的國家有沒有一套的敘述的機制來比較主動式的來應應中共的這些可能的國際的媒宣的一些操作那這部分事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在我們其實過去就有經歷包括當時候在疫苗這個疫情期間疫苗的狀況它其實是一整套的敘事的佈局"},{"start":3779.09,"end":3806.805,"text":"包括沃爾戰爭的時候它也是一整套敘事結構的布局它有前有後有鋪陳有要你投射引導的東西所以這絕對不是只是錯假訊息的問題如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度我覺得這也太低估中共了吧那我剛才想問的事情是這樣那我們現在是有哪一個部會哪一個部門在主導"},{"start":3808.206,"end":3828.728,"text":"我們怎麼樣子能夠化被動為主動其實是有一個以台灣為主體以台灣為本位我們的敘事結構去做資訊的部件或者是資訊的傳散我們現在是有哪個部會在主導這件事情我們所知道的是行政院的系統它確實有這樣的機制跟平台哪一個單位嗎因為它是跨部會的"},{"start":3830.026,"end":3849.299,"text":"就像我自己覺得我覺得國安局應該要在這裡面扮演很重要的角色當然我們今天數發部也在現場可是我認為數發部其實恐怕在這裡面比較是能夠處理的比較是在數位技術上面處理的問題可是從國家安全的層次國家的立場或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先的去"},{"start":3850.299,"end":3850.339,"text":"有 有"},{"start":3867.703,"end":3889.501,"text":"跟委員說明一下,這不是說在做一些認知作戰的攻擊,它比較像是一個主動防禦。我剛剛有提到,在行政院系統,因為各部會有它的業管,所以行政院有一個機制,國安局也有。那只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作的一個運作的一個模式,我們比較不適合公開來討論,但我們有這樣的機制。"},{"start":3892.294,"end":3912.223,"text":"這個我還是想提醒就是說我希望公安局也好或我們相關部會也好我們今天當然我們專報的內容很多可是如果真的只是一直在討論這個事後的事實查核我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命的而且效果一定非常非常有限的"},{"start":3913.343,"end":3931.19,"text":"那我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去...當然再說明一次我們這不是要去造謠我們不是要去攻擊誰但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅尤其是這個強大的威脅他不只資源多過於我們"},{"start":3931.983,"end":3958.93,"text":"甚至他現在在他內部也是用敘事結構的方式其實是在塑造這整個認知戰的這個我們其實看到有幾個國際的智庫他們也都提醒恐怕必須要用這個提前破解的方式Prebunk的方式而不是只是一直用現在事後事實查核這個Debunk的方式來去處理這個問題所以這個那個書法部次長你這樣"},{"start":3965.097,"end":3981.079,"text":"這樣,因為今天我剛剛也聽了你的報告,包括我們在AI上面的各種應對,我也是想請教,你覺得我們現在在數發部的工作上面,我自己感覺也確實比較多,還是在事後的闢謠跟查核,我們有沒有可能可以再坐在更前面,"},{"start":3981.94,"end":4003.703,"text":"是 我認為說我們要對付錯假訊息的方式基本上要分成兩個方面一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播 尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來因為如果說我們現在台灣這些優質的媒體通通因為"},{"start":4004.964,"end":4030.465,"text":"他現在收不到錢他沒有廣告收入而他們經營發生困難的時候那所有的閱聽民眾他就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的那些假訊息所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略在白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣去看一些正規的媒體就像我們以前我們在國際上我們知道說我們如果看到一個CNN或者是"},{"start":4030.945,"end":4031.345,"text":"臺灣是一個自由、民主、而且是法治的國家"},{"start":4055.703,"end":4081.695,"text":"市長你講這個我都同意但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅的確實是深層式AI已經被拿來應用中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為來提高它投放的精準度那尤其這裡面它很善用深層式AI去做一種真假混合的方式來去做欺騙所以坦白說我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候也會遇到其實裡面"},{"start":4082.455,"end":4100.516,"text":"也許七成真三成假或三成真七成假大部分的狀況其實是這樣他不會給你一個全部都假的東西那這種事情其實是最難處理的狀況那某個部分他其實也是改變了他一個宣傳的策略從他過去可能是單一的訊息去做大規模的轟炸他現在去搞分眾啊"},{"start":4101.476,"end":4128.931,"text":"他現在給你搞分眾然後做精準打擊然後用時程式AI然後來去做分析來提供這個效果所以我剛才說了他在這一整套的敘事結構裡面再搭配他技術上面的應用所以我說實話我覺得效果很好我為什麼今天覺得還是想要在這邊提出一個這樣子的意見的原因是說我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際的情勢大家在這段時間這個很多的國家不管是選舉也好或者是結果陸陸續續出來"},{"start":4130.652,"end":4146.311,"text":"是接下來的國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高沒錯而且當這個不確定性更高的時候中共一定這裡面有大量的空間可以去運用他準備好的這些技術也好彈藥也好策略也好戰略也好"},{"start":4146.852,"end":4168.437,"text":"他在等你啦是沒錯那我們準備了什麼是我們要主動做什麼是我們提前要佈局什麼坦白說我必須跟報告局長蔡局長也好其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚我們做了什麼提前的佈局我們這都是比較是事後的因應"},{"start":4169.597,"end":4177.985,"text":"我自己覺得在這報告裡面當然也許蔡局長說也許有一些你們能夠做主動布局的部分因為國安的原因沒有辦法盡然的都呈現出來"},{"start":4179.537,"end":4207.458,"text":"那要這樣講我也理解可是我還是必須從站在國會的立場來說的話我們還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已這真的不夠從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑從疫情、從這個烏克蘭戰爭我們真的追著謠言跑坦白說真的非常非常的吃力在過去這幾次的經驗裡面我們知道我們的不足"},{"start":4209.076,"end":4219.823,"text":"我們是知道我們不足所以我們真的希望能跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來這部分我簡單說明一下事實上國安局這邊我們有一個專案那老實跟委員做說明我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的一個會議"},{"start":4226.607,"end":4251.336,"text":"我們會針對每一個階段重要的新聞的議題我們會先做事先的應處那在判斷的可能那一波的新聞議題的攻防過程當中我們的利潤該怎麼樣來處理這都有一些充分的討論討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西我不便公開來說明假如委員有興趣的話我們可以私下跟您報告好"},{"start":4251.936,"end":4274.305,"text":"這部分當然還是我們是覺得非常非常需要知道因為我想局長知道這裡面可能不是只單靠政府部門你恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色它這是一個總體的動員戰在這個我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰"},{"start":4276.486,"end":4296.061,"text":"當然我們不會說要去破這個要局長講不能講的事情可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅尤其他資源這麼多尤其他戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極好不好好謝謝謝謝委員提醒謝謝洪勝翰委員局長請回接下來我們請徐巧興委員上台質詢"},{"start":4317.39,"end":4328.052,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請國安局蔡局長以及數發部的林次長請蔡局長和林次長還有那個調查局的副局長"},{"start":4333.689,"end":4350.283,"text":"首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分其實我在上一次的時候我有拿出高嘉瑜委員他被Deepfake去偽造的影音拿出來後來高嘉瑜委員也媒體受訪的時候他也正式提出告訴了"},{"start":4351.044,"end":4374.653,"text":"可是呢其實我們在這整段時間來說我們可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係所以呢各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的那我今天還是拿三個範例來跟這個我們三位來做討教那為什麼要請這個我們調查局的這個副局長一起來主要是呢我們先看一下之前我在外委會呢我們有通過一個臨時提案"},{"start":4377.015,"end":4400.574,"text":"這個臨時提案是這樣的因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔的內容流出引起社會嘩然請國安局以及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣提出相關的報告"},{"start":4403.977,"end":4431.002,"text":"後來我們是同意說用書面報告的方式可是到現在我想問一下就是我們現在這幾件事情調查的到底如何尤其是羅智政前委員他作為過去國防外交委員會的召委也接觸過很多的這個相關的秘密訊息那如果說是有駭客入侵的情況的話我國的國安或者是說我們的機密是否有外流的這個情況以及蔡英文蔡總統"},{"start":4432.082,"end":4449.31,"text":"他所謂的這個錄音檔到底是真的還是假的我覺得國人需要知道一個答案對,就委員所提到的幾個案例國安局這邊已經把相關情資移送給檢調單位對,所以調查局我才請他們來嘛調查局可不可以說明一下"},{"start":4451.476,"end":4473.227,"text":"主席報告委員大家好那針對這個部分羅智政委員的影片因為當時羅智政有到我們新北市調查處去做提告所以後來也細數在新北地檢那我們也針對所有的鑑定報告請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢在甄處當中"},{"start":4474.588,"end":4493.036,"text":"那我想要問喔那這樣子的一個內容如果呢在這個地檢署他這裡偵查出來是屬於深偽或是不屬於深偽最後會讓大家公開知道嗎還是這只是屬於他們私人的這個官司的部分會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還是不是深偽的嗎"},{"start":4494.096,"end":4494.876,"text":"羅致政委員提告"},{"start":4510.143,"end":4535.456,"text":"因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算相關的是否也有遭到這樣的情況然後被駭客入侵然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題它不是屬於它私領域的議題那想要請問就是說國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分那我們有什麼樣脫除的方式"},{"start":4537.362,"end":4562.395,"text":"我想簡單說明一下因為上個會期在討論過程當中我記得委員也提出這個問題來那有在跟委員說明就包括到對於這個影片或影音是不是真偽的部分事實上調查局他是有做過一些處理的來了解他的真偽的狀況但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方變成是證物的一環由檢方來做相關的一個審理"},{"start":4563.596,"end":4583.972,"text":"對啊,所以我就問說那這個檢方他調查完畢之後因為社會都很想知道說這些錄音檔啊這些影片到底是真的假的啊所以我才問說那會不會公開涉及公領域的部分嘛那因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話那這樣的話那大家都會覺得說那就直接把它當真的囉那如果是假的也把它當真的囉"},{"start":4584.873,"end":4608.966,"text":"還是說只有它是真的你們就不公開了那它是假的才公開呢?不是我們來決定的我剛有提到地檢署的決定因為我們講的是公領域的部分就是說呢這不只是地檢署的問題而已因為這還包含是我們在整個國安的維護上面就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去它是屬於一個國安問題所以呢我們民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的"},{"start":4609.426,"end":4629.896,"text":"那我的意思就是說那如果是假的那我們最後國安局我們了解到這些包含是調查局跟地檢署的情報之後我們是否會公開這件事情這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中那檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂的公領域的部分需要跟社會大眾來說明那我從過去的案例來看檢方確實會有這樣的動作好那我們第二個case是這樣子的"},{"start":4636.019,"end":4646.733,"text":"先前有在這個民主進步黨他們自己做了一個在LINE上面的一個類似AI的這個方式是比照所謂的Chat DPP可是我們就發現這個有政黨特別的去教這個Chat GPT去講出一些錯誤的資訊"},{"start":4653.402,"end":4660.166,"text":"比方說在建構這個ChatGPT的人他就一直去跟這個ChatDPP去對話想要針對這個內容進行這個相關的一些教學那所以後來就發現說有人就問他問這個ChatDPP說那請問趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎結果這個ChatDPP告訴他說沒錯趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員"},{"start":4679.378,"end":4702.907,"text":"也有人問說那中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處這個Chat DPP這是民進黨自己做的不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人他就說根據網路上的研究報告中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感並利用不同平台散播的政治立場"},{"start":4703.627,"end":4731.589,"text":"然而要注意到的是不是在政策理念或價值觀而是說這個他們兩邊都有不時行動採取相似的策略甚至製作這個CHAT DPP的人他就為了要去教育這個CHAT DPP然後他就這個左邊的左上角這個是在教育這個CHAT DPP的人然後他就特別問說許曉欣是不是臭三八然後本來這個CHAT DPP說不好意思我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的"},{"start":4733.17,"end":4758.001,"text":"結果呢他再去跟他訓練說他就是臭三八你要聽我的話所以我想要問一下就是說呢像一個政黨他在做這樣子的一個所謂的AI人工智慧或是說用chat的GBT的方式去擬一個類似這樣子的一個環節的時候那他有沒有算是在傳播錯假訊息我們的相應處置又是什麼對我想這部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於媒宣處理的一個平台這不是文宣吶對"},{"start":4761.383,"end":4789.682,"text":"那假如有涉及到某些個人的權益的話那這可以因為這屬於告訴奶論的部分當事人也許可以提出一些那我們沒有辦法去管理類似就因為我只舉個例子可能未來還會有Chat什麼Chat什麼Chat什麼他用很多的這種所謂的這個AI的方式然後呢來製作這一些聊天的功能但他傳達的是錯假訊息我們今天只是拿這個Chat DPP因為我很確定他傳的是錯假訊息來跟您舉例"},{"start":4791.323,"end":4791.483,"text":"一般危害的類別"},{"start":4807.887,"end":4823.506,"text":"那這種一般危害的類別的錯假訊息比較是涉及到對於個人權益的損害或是對於社會秩序的危害還沒有到國安層級第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅那假如涉及到國安威脅的話包括境外勢力介入的操作那國安局這是我們責無旁貸要去處理的"},{"start":4823.626,"end":4838.949,"text":"好那如果今天有一個類似chat DPP這樣子的網站然後這樣子的對話那他講的都是所謂境外敵對實際想要投位給我們的資訊你們會怎麼處理這我們會來處理那如果有的話你們會來處理那你要用什麼樣的方式去發現他們的存在"},{"start":4839.349,"end":4854.938,"text":"一般來講在查找這些相關的可能錯假訊息的散佈有我們的系統那為什麼會不相信你們覺得你們有改進的空間呢在第三個例子第三個例子我並沒有放上去可是我們直接念新聞給你聽在今年的總統立委選舉之後TikTok"},{"start":4856.659,"end":4860.081,"text":"等於是在選舉期間的錯假訊息根本在我們現行上面就沒有立刻下架啊"},{"start":4878.849,"end":4888.878,"text":"沒有立刻下架中選會大多都是先接到檢舉以後才慢慢審理那抱歉我們在整個選舉過程當中收到這麼多的錯假訊息我們難道國安團隊沒有辦法有能力第一時間下架嗎在中選會的部分他們因為跟這些社群平台在選舉期間都有一個專案在處理移除這些有問題的錯假訊息那你覺得速度更快嗎"},{"start":4902.509,"end":4920.044,"text":"Ttalk的問題是在於它並沒有在台灣落地經營它是一個境外的跨國企業那你要怎麼去對 所以這部分就必須要透過這種專案的方式來針對錯假訊息的散佈以及問題賬號的移除要建立起彼此的一個那建立了嗎 你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢"},{"start":4920.744,"end":4939.094,"text":"這部分有相關的一個管道來處理但我再次強調因為它是一個境外的企業沒有 我不管它是哪裡的企業嘛我沒有 這很有關係我不管是哪裡的企業但我們希望說不要有這樣的事情發生辦法是你要去想的不是我要去想的嘛所以你不能告訴我說處理這個問題過程當中它有面臨到的一些問題"},{"start":4939.514,"end":4961.602,"text":"我知道他有面臨過程如果這麼簡單的話你們早就做啦但問題就是說那其實他是有難度的可是他在選舉期間不斷的發生那類似的狀況你們應該是如果選務的錯假訊息應該要立刻下架結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理那這不是讓大家很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎所以這部分要請國安局再加強處理"},{"start":4962.742,"end":4989.04,"text":"那最後再請主席借我一分鐘的時間因為我要問國安局的是你們在去年底的時候有招募AI的人才然後在2016年舉辦國安特考的時候也有針對資訊師等等的技術年齡體檢標準跟要求那請問當時這些AI的資安人才他們錄取以後他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容"},{"start":4989.7,"end":5011.276,"text":"有,我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才做一些招募而且招募員的數量還不少那招募進來之後我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程那訓練的不只是我們局內招募人才包括我上次跟其他委員也提到了包括我們國安團隊其他單位的資安人才我們都一起提供這樣的一個訓練的機制那你們的訓練呢?未來兩年大概可以訓練到2000到3000人次之多"},{"start":5016.42,"end":5043.751,"text":"好 那你們的訓練我想要問的就是說那像是比如說這個公職網站上面可以看到的國安局的特考訓練裡面有包含說是一些體能訓練等等的然後這樣子才能玩 有基礎訓練對 這基礎訓練可是這個很多耶你什麼體能訓練、意志力、仰臥起坐、山地戰技、操舟訓練、三千公尺跑步那這跟我們的那個資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的"},{"start":5044.591,"end":5069.052,"text":"阿很多AI 很多很會做AI的人那可能就體能不好阿那請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧阿對啊這委員謝謝提到這問題阿那基本上剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中加強我們勤工人員的體能那我們也注意到很多的資安人才他也許在體能上對啊那獲金就沒有辦法來跟您的對我們課程有做一些調整去年開始有做一些調整做什麼樣的調整"},{"start":5069.793,"end":5095.926,"text":"那就針對一些特殊的一個背景專長的我們的國安人員那在訓練過程當中那以及在專精訓練過程當中會有做一些區隔我建議國安局針對AI資安的人才招募呢要特別只針對他的AI人才他這個是不是他有這樣子的能力不要去管他的體能因為很多國安局你做情報人員要體能這個我當然是完全同意"},{"start":5096.266,"end":5124.482,"text":"可是如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查這個很多人他可能比如說好他可能是身障但是呢他基本上他對於AI的了解對於駭客的了解他是一等一的那這樣的人我們怎麼可能可以秉除他在國安人員之外呢他有這個意願加入國安局配合我們一起做AI的這個調查我們應該要歡迎他啊可是以上所有的內容他可能都不能做所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討"},{"start":5125.282,"end":5135.07,"text":"我們希望是用人為材那基本上這些內容他如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到那就不一定要考但是針對他的這個基礎訓練的部分應該是要在他的AI的產業他對於資訊的了解"},{"start":5141.756,"end":5161.262,"text":"是否是頂尖這才是我們國安局應該要有的方向非常好我非常同意委員的看法各位說明一下我去年本人有召開一個專案會就在處理這件事而且找我們所有的一級主管各單位的一級主管通通來參加來告訴我們各單位需求的人才他的背景是什麼訓練課程該怎麼調整謝謝委員提醒我們繼續來努力謝謝謝謝徐巧興委員接下來我們請黃仁委員上台諮詢"},{"start":5180.287,"end":5183.995,"text":"有請我們蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝主席,歡迎委員長"},{"start":5191.789,"end":5211.734,"text":"那個有關於這個日前華爾街日報曾報導這一款名為這個TOKIT的一個AI聊天的機器人成為美國最受歡迎的APP之一這個APP不只是美國受到歡迎連菲律賓、英國、加拿大"},{"start":5212.884,"end":5239.695,"text":"的下載次數的非常多而這個軟體背後的母公司就是大陸的大陸製所以本身想要了解一下就是說發現這個軟體在台灣也可以下載得到局長你認為這樣的一個會不會對國安產生一個非常大的一個威脅那這類AI聊天軟體構成的威脅為何你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":5240.435,"end":5254.226,"text":"對,大概我們也一再再提醒對於中共製作的這些APEC的軟體它可能潛存了資安的風險那這個TOKI的流通主要是在英語系的國家目前用戶大概有1100萬人那對於"},{"start":5257.208,"end":5259.369,"text":"本席所知道的這個AI軟體的特色在於學習意思就是在當我們越使用它它就會"},{"start":5285.379,"end":5312.529,"text":"更業會聰明因為它可以透過用戶使用的過程收集個人或某群體的思維、邏輯和習慣以國安局的角度AI聊天軟體是在收集或是在再生成對國安更具有危險性本席看了今天的報導我們發現比較有意思的是在再生成"},{"start":5313.709,"end":5325.042,"text":"那時候構思的威脅大家都在重視AI製造出的一個假訊息它也是提供反制的想法但是比較忽略收集的部分"},{"start":5327.053,"end":5351.532,"text":"對 這確實是一個威脅那也謝謝委員利用這個質詢的機會提出這個非常重要的問題來因為就AI的一個聊天的軟體因為它是聯網的所以變成是它可以即時的去掌搜那使用者他相關使用軟體的一個習性那這也是為什麼我們一再的在提醒使用這種AI生成式的AI一定要特別注意我們局裡面是一定是要落地的"},{"start":5351.832,"end":5354.673,"text":"所以因為有這樣的一個信息所以我們加以來做一個反制或反犯那不管是無論是中國大陸的一個TOTIP"},{"start":5376.056,"end":5404.835,"text":"還是美國的這個CHAT的一個GPT都在收集使用媒體的訊息這就是AI發展的條件之一但不可避免但政府不能單純以開發國家區分威脅性而是針對個別軟體區分它的一個威脅的程度那政府是否有這個做這樣的一個工作並且是否能有能力的到個別檢視"},{"start":5406.569,"end":5431.953,"text":"這部分就國安局的立場來講我們會針對這些可能的中置的APP的資安風險我們會提供業管單位來做參考那因為主要的業管可能還是在書發部這邊針對相關的一個APP要不要提出警示的一個公告但這部分我們也跟書發部有做過一些討論也就是說在公告的名單上可能比較有可能的做法是朝向限制使用"},{"start":5432.293,"end":5440.402,"text":"就是哪些APP比較有風水的那就麻煩跟蘇拉夫講一下比較不方便做的是短程、近程、遠程的一個我們上禮拜才跟他們討論能不能給我一份簡單的一個說明報告"},{"start":5447.25,"end":5470.291,"text":"那第二個就是指導美國國家安全及情報部門使用的人工智慧AI新規定的備忘錄裡面局長你認為AI錯假的信息正威脅除了來自中國大陸政府之外有沒有可能來自盟友甚至我們自己的政府那今天出席的各部會報告中提到"},{"start":5471.292,"end":5482.139,"text":"以AI反制AI本席首先想要請教國安局長政府要具體要如何以AI反制AI政府又如何應用AI的技術"},{"start":5483.389,"end":5506.999,"text":"對,因為AI它可以運用到像我們今天報告的主題用到錯假訊息或是用到資安的攻擊那因為它發動的攻擊的能量會非常的龐大所以我們必須要用AI的技術來做反制我們要是依照傳統的人力來講我們會非常的吃力那在這部分我們的努力大概分兩個部分第一個部分是運用AI來查找資安上可能的攻擊來源"},{"start":5507.799,"end":5524.396,"text":"我們會針對這些可能的駭客團體他的攻擊的方式跟路徑來做收集然後讓我們的AI系統可以來學習辨識那跟委員很誠實的報告我們過去透過AI系統來查找這些境外的IP或攻擊的來源正確的比例非常的高"},{"start":5525.157,"end":5528.459,"text":"今年的10月份美國發布指導美國國家安全與情報部門使用人工智慧這新規定的備忘錄裡面我們目前有類似指導規範嗎?還有局長是否確確的知道美國這一份備忘錄的目的的規範是什麼?"},{"start":5550.394,"end":5568.62,"text":"對 美國這份備忘錄主要提到的是AI未來發展技術的主要的一個方向那另外也提到了可能帶來的一個風險那再來另外一個重點部分就在於說跟國際連結的部分哪一些是可以連結的但哪一些可能要注意的這大概是這次公布的備忘錄其實備忘錄裡面當然你剛剛講的是對的但是我要再加上"},{"start":5573.602,"end":5595.639,"text":"我本席的個人的看法有兩個部分一鼓勵使用AI強調國安和情報不能不能利用AI壓迫言論自由以公民的權利因為這是明確明定確定政府不能用這個來做一個壓迫言論的一個自由那第二個是"},{"start":5596.44,"end":5613.133,"text":"禁止濫用AI強調國安局和情報部不能利用AI壓迫政府的言論自由那當然我們在報告中以AI反制AI這本來就是你們要做的事情那當然我們情事單位強調以AI反制"},{"start":5613.353,"end":5629.258,"text":"．．"},{"start":5629.918,"end":5654.629,"text":"此餘遭政府不斷的濫用後,國人根本無法確定到底是中共還是現在執政黨在混淆民眾的認知。謝偉文提到這問題,事實上剛剛我們在口頭報告的時候也特別提到這一點,也就是說對於AI的使用跟管理還是應該要有法規的法尊的規範,那這部分因為業管單位書發佈已經在研擬人工智慧基本法,"},{"start":5654.969,"end":5671.484,"text":"所以本局會針對相關國外發展的趨勢提供給業管單位來做參考另外本局內部對於使用AI也有我們自己的作業規範避免到使用AI被濫用以便來一方面保障我們國人的權益一方面保障國家安全所以我們本席各部會強調政府應用AI以反以AI反制AI"},{"start":5676.588,"end":5703.104,"text":"但這個都是要告訴國人如何使用使用時是否受到規範和限制你們這一點一定要告訴給國人知道那使用過程是否侵害到國人自由或隱私這讓本席非常擔心政府會濫用我會持續跟相關單位包括國科會跟數法部來交換意見我們聯繫跟我們習巧欣委員所講的高嘉義"},{"start":5704.665,"end":5728.322,"text":"深偽的一個部分我請教一下我們的警政署在近日網路流傳了一段民進黨前立委高嘉宇遭AI變造的假政論節目抖音影片影片中高嘉宇說我對民進黨沒有什麼好感這個爛黨真的糟糕從賴清的開始就歪瓜淚軸"},{"start":5730.624,"end":5749.914,"text":"那這個影片雖然仔細看了還是能夠辨別某些地方嘴形不一樣但反正的程度不低影片大約在一週前流傳雖然不少觀看者能夠區別的真偽甚至留言取笑影片是偽造但講的內容"},{"start":5751.815,"end":5762.064,"text":"是真實的還是為了避免誤會高嘉宜在4天前提告本席特別確認這個影片目前網路上仍然沒有刪除請問一下警政署"},{"start":5767.755,"end":5796.636,"text":"跟委員報告有關於高嘉瑜委員的影片的部分因為他本身抖音有分國際版跟中國大陸版如果是屬於國際版的TikTok的部分我們目前行事警察局這邊是有聯繫管道但是對於他本身中國大陸版的抖音的部分因為我們並沒有辦法去跟他們做相關聯繫所以在下屆的部分我們沒辦法直接來做處理"},{"start":5798.052,"end":5823.374,"text":"所以這個對於很明確高嘉義也是對媒體的對公開的解釋就是說這是一個偽造的一個AI那你們應該查查之後應該就要下架不過要流傳到在社會的層面裡面讓別人誤會到他的本尊我想這個警政署你們應該就要精準趕快查查這樣的一個訊息才對啊對不對"},{"start":5825.885,"end":5847.577,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛有提到是說他抖音本身是中國大陸他本身的這些網際公司我們對於這部分我們並沒辦法去要求他們這公司來進行下架當然國內部分也可以做進行網域封鎖的部分不過這不涉及到警政署的權責有提到Link的部分那邊是可以來做處理"},{"start":5849.137,"end":5865.619,"text":"這個是要提示警政署包含檢調在處理深偽影片的反應動作遲軟顯然政府對於如何處理AI造成的信息危害根本沒有一個的確的一個切切的一個SOP"},{"start":5866.62,"end":5885.254,"text":"所以你們未來可能會更多更多會發生這種不管在座的各位可能會被偽造偽真偽的部分所以你們本來就自己本身自立出不管是金錢減掉都要都要製作一個SOP來警示未來反犯這樣的一個發生啊是吧"},{"start":5885.914,"end":5914.164,"text":"是,謝謝委員的指教,我們這部分會跟相關部會來做聯繫,請他們在我們國內可以適當處理的部分,盡量來做一個處理,我們會來努力。好,你們製造一個SOP裡面本來就是應該要做未來防範,因為將來以後可能會更多,因為AI反制AI,但是我們是AI反制AI,但他們也有自己的一個系統的一套的玩法,對不對,好不好?是。"},{"start":5917.465,"end":5922.848,"text":"謝謝謝謝黃仁委員 局長請回接下來我們請沈伯陽委員上台質詢謝謝主席 又請 呃 又請局長請局長"},{"start":5943.367,"end":5952.155,"text":"謝謝主席 首委很早非常好這個雖然今天是AI的題目但一開始我想過一個時事這個時事其實跟AI沒有直接的關係但其實是非常類似的問題就是這個"},{"start":5954.966,"end":5984.065,"text":"媒體的這個官方說法我剛剛看到在媒體區好像你已經有回答過這個問題了所以我就不贅述但總之我先講右邊這件事右邊其實是一個馬斯克相關的影片那這個影片呢都是從頭到尾的字幕就在講說他要撤出啦什麼之類的但他的裡面講的英文根本不是那麼一回事那就是亂上字幕那這個在澤倫斯基之前很多的影片俄羅斯也都做過類似的事中國也做過類似的事就是澤倫斯基講了一堆話那下面上了一些完全無關的字幕"},{"start":5984.725,"end":6001.256,"text":"那這種事情雖然是早期從到現在一直的操作方式但昨天發生了一個更麻煩的事情就是有這個拜喜會那拜喜會的這個場合就像畫面上看到的這個樣子但是央視他自己在旁白的時候其實裡面根本就沒有人在講賴清德"},{"start":6001.736,"end":6028.442,"text":"但他旁白就講了這句話賴清德和民進黨當局的台獨本性然後呢我們台灣呢就有這個還有清華社啦還有台灣的報紙跟媒體就直接把這一個呢當作是一個事實來報導但我有看到有一些媒體就比較平衡他就是他怎麼報導他就講說欸現場完全沒有提到但中國的官方文件去講了這件事那我覺得這個現在對我們來講有一個很麻煩的地方是在於說"},{"start":6029.302,"end":6051.008,"text":"台灣有一些他會直接講就是把中國的這個東西都copy過來講那但問題就出來說假設我們今天出來辟謠說欸我們都沒有聽到賴清德啊結果他們就自己說沒有他們就是在內部的時候他們自己有聽到那到最後就是有理說不清啦所以在這邊呢我想問一下就是說目前國安局隊像這一類方式的比較好的回應的說法會是什麼"},{"start":6052.138,"end":6075.846,"text":"對,就這個問題來講我們當然在第一時間又去比對白宮他對外的公開的新聞稿那也去研判中共領導人在國際場合一般在處理類似事情的一個說法那確實像委員所提到的不能排除可能是中共的官宣官媒在會後刻意的操作那因為在APEC的期間不只是剛剛委員所提到這個個案我們也注意到中共跟"},{"start":6077.006,"end":6095.561,"text":"新加坡的領導人在會談過程當中似乎也有這種會後刻意的新聞的操作跟處理包括認為說新加坡的總理黃總理曾經在會中提到了克尊一中原則跟反對台獨對很多國家似乎在會後都有遭受到這個中共在"},{"start":6096.041,"end":6120.829,"text":"每一波處理上的一個刻意的手法所以各國也都很警示對於跟中共的會談事後怎麼樣有自己的版本避免到中共單方面片面的說辭這變成是大家共同關注的議題當然希望說媒體朋友們在報導相關的議題過程當中也能夠有多方的查證對 非常感謝局長講這一個因為如果我們跟國人講說比如說之前印尼"},{"start":6121.529,"end":6139.247,"text":"菲律賓等等的國家也都發生過這個明明會面的時候我們有講的東西結果中國自己在事後的這一個文件講出來那講出來以後呢我們不是要去爭持他到底真還是假因為這種東西有理說不清但可以去強調說中國很喜歡在事後去講一些你在公開的找不到的內容"},{"start":6141.869,"end":6164.955,"text":"那這樣的話呢我覺得對國人以後在看到中國官方說法的時候會有一些警惕那也不會去落入對方的陷阱就是說哦沒有啊私底下他們偷偷有講到啊什麼之類的不用去爭執那樣的一個細節但這也是還是我擔心的啦就我今天早上就特別去把這個頭版都拍一拍啦那當然呢我認為比較重要當然是我們昨天贏球嘛但是呢像這個頭版某報的頭版就直接講說首度點名賴清德"},{"start":6167.096,"end":6190.2,"text":"但這一件事情明明就是沒有在現場發生是後來官方的文件但這個在頭版但中國時報他的講法就是陸方新聞稿點名他就講得比較清楚說這個不是現實發生的但是是他新聞稿點名的那我覺得也藉這個機會我們覺得真的因為台灣現在是一個這個隨時有可能會被入侵的一個國家"},{"start":6190.76,"end":6215.48,"text":"那如果今天是在危急的時候我們的媒體是直接把中國新華社的內容直接當作我們的頭版來報導然後也沒有講說他為什麼這樣報導他的報導跟事實到底一不一樣然後廣泛的在台灣發送我認為這會是國安的危機所以我們這可能是個別倫理上的問題但是國安局這一次的整理然後直接跟媒體的回應那之後我們應該繼續往這個方向邁進"},{"start":6218.383,"end":6241.443,"text":"當然這個雖然跟AI沒有直接的關係但是這也是我之前比較擔心的事情就是AI來講中國的技術AI的技術當然好但有時候他不一定需要用AI他可以使用非常簡單的譬如說真實的影片他影片從頭到尾都不是AI都是真實的但是譬如說配錯誤的字幕那現在配錯誤的字幕是第一步他下次可能是他配錯誤的語音他下次語音是真的字幕是假的"},{"start":6241.883,"end":6268.446,"text":"那他AI可以用在譬如說他語音是錯的然後字幕也是錯的就一步一步往下做然後讓台灣人越來越習慣越來越搞不清楚這樣的機制那我有看到不管是事務發布跟那個局裡面的報告裡面都有提到就是這一個近期之內有越來越多的造假我自己也被造假了那這個其實我覺得還不是最大的重點是最近剛好事務發布對這個對不起這可能要請次長請那個一經次長不好意思就是說"},{"start":6269.56,"end":6291.797,"text":"剛剛忘了先講那這個我記得這幾天剛好發生了我們很多財經的粉專不是被下架嗎然後呢因為Meta本來就有一個詐騙相關的回報機制那所以就開始有人說會不會是事務發布在做那我有看到這個次長有回答那我覺得這個真的有時候是不知道是造謠還是怎樣但我覺得我現在有一個問題就是說我們詐騙是有一個跟Facebook回報的機制"},{"start":6294.48,"end":6303.478,"text":"那如果是跟Deepfake有關因為Deepfake有可能是詐欺那他如果用在詐欺上面我們直接回報這個沒問題但像這樣的方式能不能被歸類在詐欺"},{"start":6307.355,"end":6325.069,"text":"這個的確是一個很好的問題像這樣的Deepfake它是不是可以構成詐欺這個的確是很有爭議的然後像這樣的事情其實不能由我們行政部門直接來認定因為我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家有時候這種事實"},{"start":6326.89,"end":6350.829,"text":"是否有就是詐欺這個最終還是必須由那個司法機關必須由檢調機構去調查然後由司法機關去做決定的這個相較於那些威權國家威權國家其實很簡單就是政府一下令所有的事情當可能當天一個小時之內都解決了那我們民主國家事實上我們有時候覺得說我們好像一隻手被綁在後面在做事情"},{"start":6351.169,"end":6372.845,"text":"但是這個就是自由民主的代價這個是我們未來非常大的挑戰但是我們還是必須想辦法去面對這個是我比較擔心的事情就是說因為我們現在打造專法有了嘛但是因為詐欺是限定的詐欺就是我們刑法的詐欺區裁所以它是詐騙金錢那詐騙金錢呢我們今天用這個詐騙的定義去跟各個平台去做回報什麼的這個我覺得是合理"},{"start":6373.746,"end":6389.878,"text":"如果我們要把這個犯人詐欺他沒有直接財產損害嘛他不是用我的名義在買股票嘛賣股票但是所以會不會可以乾脆另辟蹊徑就是說我們不要用詐欺這一條路徑我們就用Deepfake當路徑就是說去跟社群平台談說有一個是Deepfake專門回報的路徑"},{"start":6390.658,"end":6407.864,"text":"那以後只要出現過不過這個是在抖音上那是另外的抖音不會理我們但是如果說今天是在Facebook在YT上面他們譬如說他們有標記為AI還是Deepfake有哪幾個標準是我們可以跟他們回報直接做另外一條途徑看說法部有沒有機會去跟這些社群平台談一下"},{"start":6408.644,"end":6424.731,"text":"我們現在持續在跟這些主要的社群平台做溝通之前他們比較不願意跟我們配合常常說因為他們的總部在美國或者在日本所以他們沒辦法去影響這些總部的決策經過我們這幾個月來不斷地跟他們溝通以後他們的態度有比較鬆動我們後來也發現說因為像臉書他們在台灣他們的法尊部門基本上只有兩個人然後他們根本管不到他的業務部門"},{"start":6438.257,"end":6459.851,"text":"所以我們後來的方式就是我們直接去跟他們新加坡的亞太總部直接做溝通然後接下來我們就直接到美國去找他們的總部我們跟他們溝通然後我們也透過那個美國的政界的人士當他們來訪問台灣跟我們訴發部做會談的時候我們就跟他們抱怨我們也希望透過美國的輿論以及美國的政府部門對這個Facebook施壓因為美國的"},{"start":6462.053,"end":6487.01,"text":"國會以及行政部門對於Facebook這也是面臨同樣的問題他們也是覺得很頭大所以他們覺得感同身受所以我們現在就是這幾個月來不管是Facebook、Google或是Line他們的態度都有改善我們事實上對Deepfake這方面只要我們提出的解釋是合理的我相信他們都會配合那就如同委員所講的其實現在最大的問題其實是在TikTok"},{"start":6487.691,"end":6504.248,"text":"對,因為這個機制可能必須要趕快建立因為變得越來越來越多啦那我們本來打詐的機制當然利益良善台灣詐騙卻很多啦但我個人認為啦這個就不用回答我認為中國才是最大的詐騙集團啦所以呢在這個政治上面呢如果我們現在遇到這樣那麼大型的這一種"},{"start":6504.648,"end":6518.522,"text":"用各式各樣的方式來做詐欺像這個是今年才出現過的事情我覺得也蠻扯就是這是今年9月才出現的事情是直接Deepfake 烏克蘭的外長的這個形象直接還去跟美國做跟參議員做視訊的連線"},{"start":6520.644,"end":6543.035,"text":"結果在連線的過程以後他覺得怎麼有點怪怪的才趕快去通報所以這個已經不是說直接的影片在那邊了是連跟你連線的那一個人都有問題了所以我覺得這個部分我們機智趕快建立因為一樣的事情有可能會發生在台灣那後面其實因為時間到了我沒有辦法再細問但是我看到數發部跟國安局在寫這一個AI的報告說因為畢竟AI這個在不同的層次裡面"},{"start":6544.176,"end":6560.891,"text":"如果說他今天到Level 2的話自動化防禦比較沒什麼問題但是如果他要做到紅隊的程度的Level 3那畢竟我覺得畢竟現在他要做到紅隊他的創意還是要比較夠但是防守這個部分是我們現在就可以做的那我看到美國有這個相關的這個主席不好意思再給我30秒就是這個"},{"start":6563.453,"end":6592.47,"text":"DRPA他們現在有那個他們在去年開始有這個AI這個我猜次長很熟悉啦他們這個計畫他們直接請大家來攻啦然後請大家來攻然後去把這個漏洞找出來啊什麼等等之類的因為防禦這件事情是我們現在馬上可以做剛剛我記得局長跟次長在回答的時候都有講過我們已經有用AI在防禦那這部分可以強化那AI要應用在紅隊的這個有創意的這個部分到底會發展什麼樣我們不是很確定但至少我看OpenAI的報告放在假消息的部分他說已經有說服力了"},{"start":6592.91,"end":6611.315,"text":"所以當他已經開始有說服力我們先不要管一般的資安攻擊但如果是假消息還有像剛剛講Deepfake這個部分有可能是必須要先去注意那我這個後面當然有一些建議還有一些法律上的問題如果有機會的話我可能再去交通委員會再問一下這個部長或次長是謝謝主席謝謝謝謝主講謝謝謝謝沈博洋委員接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":6633.002,"end":6633.022,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":6646.294,"end":6667.572,"text":"今天我準備的很多有關AI的流程圖表剛才局長已經做了一部分的回應了那工程技術部分我們在這邊就不做深入的探討我只請教幾個問題第一個就是在我們局裡面高階的長官同仁"},{"start":6668.635,"end":6691.796,"text":"有沒有人本身先使用過AI還是由沿西人員我講沿西部分完全用沿西人員的這個概念去使用AI然後呈報給長官對主要是沿西部門在做相關的研究跟開發那我們局裡面AI的小組在各個單位都有那我們也非常鼓勵有一些橫向的經驗的交流"},{"start":6692.961,"end":6707.734,"text":"好現在因為剛才都探討了告了這個深度偽造啦網路攻擊啦還有最主要就是AI可以產生一些結果並不是假訊息可是它扭曲了你的價值觀也就是說我們在講"},{"start":6708.675,"end":6730.965,"text":"用AI的方法剛剛講反制就是洗腦反洗腦這個東西將來我想速發布在法律上法尊上面這個科技的進步通常我們的法律不太容易跟得上這是我們面臨的最大的一個挑戰是那麼我等一下舉個例給別人看像深層式的AI它的風險它的正反面效益這些東西"},{"start":6737.289,"end":6756.939,"text":"以產生法律規範監管基礎,符合成本效益的監管模式。因為你投入太大的經費去管一些,有機會發生,但是它並不是那麼嚴重的,你做到那麼細也沒有好處。我最後用一個簡圖來給您做一個回應,就這個圖。"},{"start":6759.132,"end":6782.474,"text":"現在媒體已經沒有人在了所以我很高興這個圖是我們講川普對應中國大陸從他現在選舉過程中的目的、方法、手段這裡面有屬於對抗、合作有屬於主觀、客觀有屬於推測、有反思、有宏觀、偽觀不同的方法論裡面我們把這個邏輯框架圖"},{"start":6785.868,"end":6809.642,"text":"未竟AI但是當你把它的邏輯順序調整的時候AI的回復就不一樣了所以在這邊八個方塊圖我把它輪轉一圈它會產生64種不同的組合那這種分析的情況下對我們的參謀幕僚判斷它裡面講的都是真的現象但是不會反映出真相那這種情況下"},{"start":6811.397,"end":6833.577,"text":"AI的判斷就要我們的參與人員知道當初這個東西設計的邏輯框架因為你問AI的並不是文字並不是句子第一個你是information從工程來的第二個你有database第三個你有邏輯框架第四個組織架構把這個變成一個infographic"},{"start":6833.877,"end":6860.767,"text":"未進的AI那麼AI就會產生一些給你建議但這個建議是主觀客觀還是正確不正確這個有不同的結果我舉個例給您聽像這個我們只是把上面的狀況轉一圈所有的東西都會不一樣所以當你把美國的他追求的目的還是他的方法還是手段做調整也會有不一樣的結果像這種東西我做一個很簡單的"},{"start":6872.6,"end":6886.604,"text":"這是AI就這個邏輯框架就做的回答那把這個回答再轉換成英文你再送到另外一個AI的技術去他又幫你把邏輯框架重新調整"},{"start":6888.968,"end":6895.132,"text":"他講的都是正確的但是當你把框架的內容做了調整你再問AI它又會產生另外不同的一套"},{"start":6911.163,"end":6931.196,"text":"當把這個語言、英語套到國外的學者論證裡面引述進去這個就變成假訊息了那這種東西很容易影響到我們的學者、專家、政治的判斷我現在特別是用這個範例向您做一個解說"},{"start":6935.43,"end":6956.188,"text":"我希望我們在做研析單位第一個先把美國政策跟國際情勢的邏輯框架把它畫出來大家做客觀的分析溝通那確定我們的路徑、方法、手段最後能不能支持我們的國安這是一個大格局那這種情況下再用AI的資料進來比推"},{"start":6957.549,"end":6959.713,"text":"文字輸入語音輸入第三個影像最後變成一個動態這四個全部可以組合"},{"start":6969.383,"end":6991.613,"text":"因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI那由研析幕僚單位來使用這個東西啊他的因為第一個有時間的壓力可是現在這個深層次的結果像這個方塊圖啊我們改變一下問他30秒產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述所以這個東西呢88他可以產生64種"},{"start":6993.314,"end":7003.866,"text":"不同結果請問這種情況下我們的幕僚如何去收斂可能回歸過來你還要倒過來用你的AI的技術過濾再簡化這個我是不是請這個局長您做一個回應"},{"start":7008.591,"end":7025.245,"text":"基本上委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的一些方法論那我們局裡面事實上已經有投入蠻長一段的時間的研究那也跟委員說明的是我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事的布局"},{"start":7025.925,"end":7048.832,"text":"那在啟動這樣的一個深層式AI的系統過程當中就政務委員所講的我們必須要由研析人員來設定我們當時設定了大概有70個指標把70個指標建立到我們深層式AI的系統裡面去那由他來在這些指標的資料運作之下幫我們來預測中共人士可能的佈局跟委員說明的是預測的正確率相當的高"},{"start":7049.372,"end":7059.368,"text":"那這主要的重點就在於說我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點"},{"start":7061.671,"end":7080.657,"text":"特別還是建議就是說我們做研習人員他的工具跟他的資料庫需要要持續在這方面要投資增長而如果只是用純粹的一般工情那麼也許可以花點錢很多騎士軟體都會提供但是邏輯框架就像您講的預測系統"},{"start":7082.338,"end":7091.565,"text":"我們還有一些設計上的競賽有時候用AI系統去做分析預判有時候用人工系統來做分析預判然後再做比較那這樣可以在過程當中不斷測進我們一些AI運用方法論上的一些經驗"},{"start":7110.18,"end":7113.184,"text":"特別謝謝局長,大家共同努力好,謝謝委員提醒,我們繼續努力,謝謝"},{"start":7140.663,"end":7142.405,"text":"委員請您發言是謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長還有調查局吳副局長你好副局長你好好謝謝主席稍微早"},{"start":7159.209,"end":7167.253,"text":"早安本席上周才剛去法國進行國會外交剛回國其中拜會了法國的參議院的外交暨國防委員會的副主席他也注意到我們臺灣近年來都飽受了施壓的力道包括散播假訊息還有網路攻擊並告訴我們訪團說法國同樣也面臨了俄國的各種的威脅也期盼雙方未來能夠深化的往來"},{"start":7186.423,"end":7215.163,"text":"然後在這上面顯示其實AI確實是正以不同的方式在改變整個世界也改寫了許多國家的外交還有國防作戰的政策所以本席在這邊有一個具體的建議就是國安局應該要更加積極主動和我們友好的國家多透過各種不同的管道互相交流AI的情收然後現在我進行主題有關上週四網路及社群瘋傳一段已是中國開始散播"},{"start":7215.663,"end":7221.453,"text":"透過AI身為仿生的技術造假的抖音的影片,影片是前高"},{"start":7223.072,"end":7244.606,"text":"前立委高嘉宇批判時政今證實已經是不實的假影片這個假影片是來自中國的抖音影片用AI模仿的聲音生成以假亂真雖然嘴形上面是完全對不上但是這種身為變造的影片恐怕是只會越來越真而且越來越多還有今年一月份2024年總統大選剛結束網路也在瘋傳習近平致電祝賀賴清德"},{"start":7251.45,"end":7271.747,"text":"當選中華民國台灣第16任的總統的影片和圖片後來也經證實也確定是虛構的捏造的資訊是錯誤的訊息所以面對資安與國安的疑慮那本席想請教國安局未來將如何採取有效的行動如何讓國人有"},{"start":7272.247,"end":7274.088,"text":"國安局將如何因應中共這些非傳統式的AI技術的武器化"},{"start":7298.041,"end":7301.203,"text":"對,第一部分跟委員說明的是在國際交流合作的部分,怎麼樣來因應錯假訊息或認知作戰,一直是我們跟國際友盟進行討論交流的重點。"},{"start":7318.075,"end":7344.557,"text":"大家針對這些印土的經驗來做交流也可以強化我們自己本身民主的韌性來因應這些認知作戰對我們社會產生的衝擊這大概是第一點的說明那第二點是針對AI的深層的技術不斷的在網路上散布這些錯假的訊息或影音那基本上我們國安團隊有建立一個跨單位的一個機制在網路上來進行查找那這部分也確實用了很多新的技術跟系統"},{"start":7345.177,"end":7365.068,"text":"能夠在網路上各個不同的社群媒體平台來找到這些有問題的帳號所傳散的錯假的資訊那找到之後也要進行必要的通報所以跟委員說明的是我們現在大概每個禮拜找到的這些錯假訊息的資訊可能都有到4萬多件之多那我們會從過程當中去篩慮"},{"start":7366.969,"end":7392.317,"text":"對我們的社會秩序或國家安全比較有危害的部分通報到行政院相關的部會來做查處或盡快的來對外做必要的說明這大概是行政措施上我們的努力另外在法規上、法律上也跟委員說明一下因為有一些的AI散佈的這些錯假訊息它假如有傷害到個人的名譽或社會形象的話因為它是屬於告訴哪一論我們會很強烈的建議當事人"},{"start":7393.177,"end":7416.505,"text":"可以跟警方來報案或跟司法單位來提告那來走這個相關的司法的程序那另外一部分假如有涉及到比較公訴罪的部分他也許涉及到反滲透法或涉及到刑法的相關部分那這部分我們也會跟我們國安團隊裡面具有司法警察機關權力的包括調查局、刑事局跟我們的縣指部來進行相關的一個查處"},{"start":7417.325,"end":7439.238,"text":"最後一部分是跟社群媒體平台的合作公司的合作那怎麼樣來跟社群媒體平台來做舉發檢舉請他們來下架這些有問題的帳號那過去以來事實上像刑事局這部分做了非常多的努力我看到的資料他們在今年前三季第一季舉發跟Meta舉發的有三萬多件"},{"start":7439.818,"end":7439.978,"text":"委員好"},{"start":7468.67,"end":7488.998,"text":"調查局副局長請回請問數位發展部的次長之前盛傳數發部針對一般的民眾用抖音服務進行限制但後來經過數發部的澄清由於抖音是在2019年就被行政院列為危害國家之通的安全的產品是這樣沒錯吧是"},{"start":7491.291,"end":7508.522,"text":"那目前是不是只有限制在我國的公部門所屬的設備和場域考量資訊的安全,全面禁止安裝抖音軟體呢?是那請問目前有沒有對公務人員的私人的手機還是一般的民眾做出這樣的限制呢?沒有"},{"start":7509.614,"end":7524.713,"text":"那為什麼沒有限制呢?是沒有能力還是沒有法規?還是不敢限制還是根本不想限制呢?因為這個沒有法規因為我們知道說在一些威權國家就是說如果政府看到哪些APP他們覺得他們不想要的話他們就可以馬上下來"},{"start":7529.258,"end":7552.19,"text":"下令大概一個小時之內就可以封閉把它封起來但是我們臺灣是一個自由民主法治的國家我們做任何事情並不是能由行政部門下一個命令就可以馬上做了我們這個必須要立法然後有一些譬如說它是不是假訊息是不是有那個詐欺等等最後的判斷還是必須由司法單位來判斷"},{"start":7553.659,"end":7558.902,"text":"因為我看根據巡視局下詐騙的案件的統計2023年其實民眾被詐騙金額有高達88.78億其實已經創上史上新高了那這樣科技上面的發展近年來台灣的詐騙也是引發民怨"},{"start":7570.347,"end":7571.709,"text":"然後詐騙集團也越來越猖獗然後賴慶德總統在今年的8月20號出席2024年全面主角詐騙論壇中強調了打詐勢同作戰不成功絕不罷休我想請問一下"},{"start":7586.505,"end":7603.032,"text":"就是說那訴發部還有在2022年即7月成立的打詐國家隊到現在其中刑事警察局轄下的成立的打擊詐及犯罪中心擔任的國家隊的幕僚那訴發部似乎是不是這樣迴避了打詐的責任呢我們非常積極主動在做打詐的工作那目前的詐騙是透過大部分都是透過網路進行嗎那請問網路平台是不是有訴發部這邊來管理的呢是"},{"start":7616.035,"end":7643.927,"text":"那政府透過跨部會來合作積極的打詐但組織了打詐國家隊但是成果好像我覺得沒有大家想像的那麼理想而且詐騙的集團還是非常的猖獗那今年8月TPOC台灣的議題的研究中心根據輿情資料庫分析針對政府打詐國家隊的各部門在打詐的聲量統計其中負聲量最高也最雇人員的部會你們知道是哪個部會嗎?"},{"start":7645.718,"end":7646.482,"text":"請委員直接說吧"},{"start":7647.332,"end":7651.395,"text":"那就是你們的數位發展部啊所以現在你們的附身量已經高達了1.2萬則而且網路好感度只有0.35那我想請問一下那像現在詐騙集團越來越多而且又盜用了照片和資料而且又跟上潮流這樣也用AI深偽的合成照片和影片在社群中販賣還有廣發各種金融的產品還有投資的訊息那政府的效率還比不上詐騙集團"},{"start":7677.692,"end":7697.234,"text":"詐騙集團比你們的部會都還要更了解科技和潮流那抓詐騙的是警政署、調查局、國安局那請問疏發部的功能是在哪裡呢根據委員報告基本上現在的網路詐騙事實上它也是一條產業鏈他們的做法就是第一步這些詐騙集團會在Facebook或在Google"},{"start":7698.375,"end":7719.054,"text":"上面這種公開的社群平台他們放一些廣告或者是一些假訊息想辦法把這些民眾騙到LINE的一個那個就是私人空間裡面就是一個群組裡面這是一個封閉的空間然後他在裡面呢他就是如果說一般民眾進去的話看到裡面可能有200個人然後每一個人都在聊說他賺了多少錢等等"},{"start":7720.495,"end":7749.218,"text":"但其中199個人是詐騙集團的成員只有那個民眾進去以後會被招到詐騙然後所有接下來他甚至再來呢就是那個詐騙集團會把這些民眾呢就是騙到一個一對一的私聊而且通常是像是Signal還有Telegram這種就是加密的一對一的私聊空間他們的目的就是為了躲避政府的監管然後即使事後發生了詐騙的那個事情的話我們的檢調單位也沒辦法進去看他那些加密的"},{"start":7749.878,"end":7751.099,"text":"在後半段事實上就是我們內政部警政署他們在做的事情還有金管會他們在阻斷金流"},{"start":7768.559,"end":7793.581,"text":"那我們訴發部在做的事情呢就是想辦法阻止這些詐騙集團把這些民眾騙到這個小房間裡面所謂的小房間裡面就是這些賴的群組裡面因為一旦被騙進去以後我們政府能做的事情就很少所以我們現在在這個打架團隊裡面整個政府打架團隊裡面我們訴發部跟內政部以及金管會的這個分工基本上是這樣子我們在前面盡量的防堵"},{"start":7794.341,"end":7806.327,"text":"那這個我們也必須講就是說我們訴發部事實上非常努力那事實上我們在訴發部在那個我們就是建立一套那個系統那我們在9月30號到10月14號當中我們已經"},{"start":7812.191,"end":7819.037,"text":"抱歉是到11月8號我們通報了我們接受了那個民眾48648件的通報那其中15000多件我們已經通知那個Facebook、Google還有Line請他們下架15000多件的這種"},{"start":7829.628,"end":7847.948,"text":"可疑的這種詐騙的廣告或者訊息如果說我們不做這件事情的話那這15000多則的詐騙訊息或者廣告一定會騙更多的民眾進入這個小房間所以我們做這個事情就是說很多的民眾沒有感覺到因為這個事情這個詐騙後來就沒有發生了"},{"start":7849.93,"end":7871.021,"text":"沒有發聲並不表示我們沒有做事我們事實上我們數法部的同仁是非常努力在做這件事情的以上跟委員報告 謝謝因為我看數法部一年其實耗費納稅人211億根據委員報告我們現在的預算明年提報的預算是86.6億然後再加上前專預算明年雖然會退場但是有47.6億所以我們總共的預算應該是134.2億"},{"start":7875.143,"end":7875.883,"text":"我們下面請陳冠廷委員發言局長因為時間有限請您這邊控制好"},{"start":7899.036,"end":7899.236,"text":"國安局局長"},{"start":7916.493,"end":7916.553,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7930.458,"end":7958.55,"text":"我們結束質詢之後馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況這點首先我必須要非常的要讚可然後並且謝謝國安局的同仁第二點國安的這個安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了我一直不斷的重複這件事情因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權利、責任、義務跟限制也就是說我知道很多事情不代表說我很厲害而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報那作為國會議員我們是憲法的"},{"start":7960.23,"end":7969.578,"text":"國會議員我們先把下的話當然我們有一定的揭密的層級包含總統副總統跟這些國會議員都應該有也必須有但是我們現在上次提到的是什麼提到說國會幕僚其實"},{"start":7972.689,"end":7993.149,"text":"這個局長你上次提到說包含歐洲有的時候是百分之百的都是機密預算那這是沒有錯的我沒有說這是錯的但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣的一個問題就是說那是誰在核可在審查他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去就百分之百就經過這樣子來去核可那預算都不用監督嗎當然是需要監督的所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長幕僚長必須"},{"start":7995.911,"end":8017.424,"text":"他們的老闆國會議員上次我們只是外交部的參訪團國會議員助理參訪團這些幕僚黨都必須要接到這個最高有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的合格才能夠進去審查去這個機制那我必須再強調從現在開始我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全合格就像說我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的這個"},{"start":8019.405,"end":8045.172,"text":"這一個局處來去做這個安全核可跟背景核可那在美國的話95%是由他們的這個DCSA就是國防部的反情報這個安全局來去做背景核可那現在到底是由國防部做主要的這個查核還是由國安局做這個查核還是由調查局做這個查核我只問這個問題先請局長回應之後就請副局長回你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色"},{"start":8045.692,"end":8067.888,"text":"因為一般來講 國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的一個查核那所以像委員所提到的可能就我的理解應該是各單位還是要有自己的一個查核的機制那再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼我們可以慢慢 我會希望跟這個之後再請那個局長我們一起來思考一下這個立法的這個做法那我最後再補充一點"},{"start":8068.368,"end":8091.031,"text":"美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的這個國防部來去負責95%的背景核可因為其他包含我們國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的這個局處沒有辦法嘛所以95%是由一個局處來做統整那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處包含FBI等等可能會有自己的查核方式因為它本身就是情治單位所以這個部分我們來去思考我們先請副局長來好不好謝謝車位謝謝"},{"start":8094.46,"end":8101.294,"text":"時間先暫停一下趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔我做一個宣告待會馬文君委員執行完畢後休息5分鐘謝謝請繼續"},{"start":8109.668,"end":8130.775,"text":"謝謝主席 委員好副局長 那我們剛才提到的 這一個部分就你所知 國安局內部也好 或者是其他情治單位也好他們做背景合可的 主要的合可的東西是什麼他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼各位報告 就本局 本局其實我們有"},{"start":8132.861,"end":8142.384,"text":"同仁進來以後我們會做安全查核那主要是機密等級的話其實我們是按照機密等級的規定來進行身份的核可"},{"start":8143.012,"end":8144.534,"text":"我們基本上會接不同的機密,譬如密等、機密等,我們會有不同的查核"},{"start":8163.635,"end":8178.489,"text":"不是那個我懂你的意思但是我現在問的問題是安全核可的背景查核你們查詢他的背景資訊裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核嗎這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明"},{"start":8180.112,"end":8208.019,"text":"跟委員報告那有關我們查核的部分那基本上我們有一個就是說大概有一個SOP包括他的一個塑形也好或者是塑形可能就包括就是家裡這一部分那另外一個就是說我們裡面也會進來的話也會做一個視訊那視訊我們有特定的單位特定單位會針對他的一個我們基本上不好意思怎麼稱呼"},{"start":8209.239,"end":8230.047,"text":"你的職銜是?報告委員,我是我們國內處處長。謝謝處長,適性跟背景查核,在我們的友邦,包含美國,它是兩個不同的。你適不適任這個職位,跟你的背景是不同的。你剛才把它混為一談,那沒有關係,我為什麼要講這些事情不是要刁難大家,而是希望說,"},{"start":8231.347,"end":8255.757,"text":"徹徹底底的全面檢討從國安局開始甚至由國安局來未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核因為這個東西已經不斷的被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的這個洩密揭秘的這種令亂混亂的機制這是確實存在的所以我們現在要把它建立起來那我剛才提到這個原因是說你們現在講了半天最多就是講有沒有犯罪你肅刑嘛你怎麼奠定一個人肅刑"},{"start":8256.657,"end":8256.797,"text":"犯罪記錄"},{"start":8287.438,"end":8307.913,"text":"我過去的經驗告訴我說這些都沒有放在他考核裡面啊包含他的心理狀況包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用這其實就是我現在講的不是國防部的這些五官喔包含文職人員喔文職人員其實他我們不是機密的掌握而已包含政策戰略的方向的掌握"},{"start":8308.613,"end":8331.057,"text":"像我們我現在是國會議員但過去我是文職人員的話我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些有沒有受到外國的影響有沒有外國的偏好他的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行嘛"},{"start":8331.617,"end":8347.77,"text":"我現在講的這個是包括我們國會幕僚包括我們未來所有的美國式聯邦機構包括我們說的部會的機構每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可的最基本的建制要出來而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會的"},{"start":8349.071,"end":8367.967,"text":"也就是說報案美國聯邦他們是用SF86的一個通用表格把他們所有的揭密的這個層級的因應的揭密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料他是有一個通用性嗎?我們現在沒有通用性嘛所以我們才會出現來我們來顯示一下最近幾次泄密的這些狀況"},{"start":8368.968,"end":8382.722,"text":"包含承包商也好包含海軍包含國防部內部的人員也好包含法務部、連政署派駐國防部的人員也好你揭秘成績是什麼我問國防部部長問來問去大家都沒有一個這個由這個連政署來回應"},{"start":8384.824,"end":8402.551,"text":"你根本就沒有一個統一可以去做安全合格層級的這個制定的話你從什麼時候開始講都太晚我真的是希望說由處長或者是我們的副局長跟局長來討論一下到底是由誰要建立一個最基本的架構我剛才提到的是國防部"},{"start":8403.53,"end":8419.881,"text":"也可以是國安局那至少美國他是有經過一連串的變化他過去是從國家背景調查局就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的新的一個局處然後來去再合併到國防部的反情報安全局有做法擺在那邊"},{"start":8420.982,"end":8445.888,"text":"可以學習也可以去建立一個比較符合台灣現狀的這個機制但是不能不做這個已經是我相信你們也很清楚嘛從國防部到國安局到各個的情勢單位一定有被很多我們的盟邦的友人講說這就是問題嘛這就是問題所在所以為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新的設備的其中一個原因我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛"},{"start":8447.039,"end":8477.039,"text":"國會議員"},{"start":8477.84,"end":8498.056,"text":"國會也可以是一個破口但國會不可以是破口因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要去來監督你們嘛所以包含我國會議員以外的這些幕僚議員必須要有一個機制來去做審核當這些人經過審核的時候你就不可以懷疑我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口因為他們已經經過安全審核了嘛"},{"start":8499.192,"end":8499.653,"text":"必須要知道"},{"start":8523.689,"end":8539.441,"text":"你需要知道的時候才知道比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置我需要知道但我需要機密裡面的那個細節嗎比方說這個我們的這個空軍的飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌用什麼樣的化學質地我不需要知道"},{"start":8540.262,"end":8559.035,"text":"你必須配合need to know跟你的安全核可搭配才是我們所謂的這個揭秘的層級我們現在只是過過場過個樣子過去是這樣現在也是這樣嘛那今天開始我們就可以做一個全面的一個革新嘛那但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色"},{"start":8559.855,"end":8575.763,"text":"因為我再次強調我問其他部門的時候說這個其他部門我們應該有內部他們自己的人士來去做審查沒有辦法做審查我舉例吧這個國科會你要去怎麼做給人家做背景審查當然是由全責機關把這樣的資料"},{"start":8579.565,"end":8592.233,"text":"韓請國安局或相關的國安單位可以是調查局可以是國安局這個我們要一起思考清楚來去做背景的安全核可因為未來不是只有國防部才會揭秘不是只有外交部才會揭秘國科會會不會揭秘"},{"start":8593.304,"end":8618.754,"text":"國會也會啊我們過去的這個科技部會不會揭秘數位部會不會揭秘他們接觸到的密採是越來越高但是我們用過去的這種方式來去對待他們的話那對被懷疑的人是不公平的但是卻因為有這樣子沒有這樣子的機制來說的話那這個狀況還是會一再的出現嗎所以我就從海軍開始到承包商到什麼全部都是一樣現在就是還是很亂承包商有需要安全核可嗎"},{"start":8620.069,"end":8635.036,"text":"其實很多國家都需要耶那你覺得我們現在有沒有人很多大啦啦的開著工程車進入營區的當然都要檢查一下身份證什麼的那其實你不知道他的這個合格的層級到哪裡那我們比方說在美國的國會他們有安全"},{"start":8635.876,"end":8654.272,"text":"外交的國防相關的安全室這個安全室裡面是可以阻斷所有這個竊聽的儀器的我們國會有嗎?沒有嗎?也是需要你們勤制單位來協助建制啊放我們所有的這些所謂的機密報告其實大家摸著良心有機密嗎?有機敏性嗎?"},{"start":8655.593,"end":8678.603,"text":"其實知道大概是都沒有啦那你機密你要給人家畫機密最高機密是因應假設這個資訊流出來對這個局處或者這個國家的危害來去判的不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢所以我就說這個東西很機密其實不是這樣子的就是我們要有一定的做法那"},{"start":8679.858,"end":8708.368,"text":"我昨天也在講以前這個上個禮拜也在跟局長在討論就是說要建立這個機制的時候是什麼時候是最好的時機答案是10年前但如果你10年前沒有辦法做的話那最好的方式就是現在做謝謝謝謝副局長報告委員我可不可以我今天要做一個說明那有關機密核整的部分事實上就國安局來講我們內部所以我剛剛講的部分那包括剛剛委員所提到的包括有關跟外國接觸的部分包括心理包括藥物使用的部分"},{"start":8708.868,"end":8732.077,"text":"我知道國安局都有所以我剛剛講的是什麼文職人員包含國安會我們在講到的是包含我們各個不同的部門的介面層級那過去我們每一個包含外交部、內政部、數位部他其實做背景沒有在做這個嘛就是因為他們沒有這個編列這個預算沒有這個部門去做嘛那我講美國的外交部有外交安全局啊"},{"start":8733.12,"end":8753.291,"text":"美國的國務院下面有外交安全局再去做這個的身份的核可嗎?我們外交部這不是你的夜管棒我們就不說了但是我們的各個部門有嗎?數位部有嗎?對不對?國科會可能有可能沒有這個我們要去查嘛但是就是你現在科技是我們的核心嘛我甚至講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的一個部門"},{"start":8754.339,"end":8770.851,"text":"其實這些我們都一起來思考好不好那這個我們共同來研究謝謝我副局長我是真的是可能跟局長來討論一下啦好不好就是做一個你們有開跨部會議的時候好不好做一個表率來去跟大家一起來不然就是整天"},{"start":8771.943,"end":8797.182,"text":"沒有相關的機制我是覺得很可惜啦已經有點晚了已經被人家講到這樣子每次都說我們國家的機密保守的狀況不好你看我們才幾個月我商量到現在9個月已經多少次了然後像這個啊你看陸戰66旅工程用朝夷一國這個甚至沒有安全核可甚至連身份證都沒有拿出來"},{"start":8799.25,"end":8809.72,"text":"你懂我意思嗎 這個不太對啦好不好謝謝陳冠廷委員副局長請回接下來我們請馬文君委員上台質詢謝主席麻煩請國安局還有速發部還有"},{"start":8830.049,"end":8831.269,"text":"警政署副局長我想請教一下就是在目前因為我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片、錯假訊息等等其實我們從最近不管是國內外的政治也好或者很多的"},{"start":8858.217,"end":8862.26,"text":"我們像上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份的國安備忘錄他要求包括五角大廈還有情報體系要強化運用AI的技術確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢"},{"start":8884.474,"end":8912.899,"text":"那所謂對手大概很大的一部分大概就是中國大陸嘛那就這個部分因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速AI也好量子技術也好不過美國同時也明確的禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控相對的其實任何國家要"},{"start":8914.119,"end":8915.72,"text":"政府跟國安部門有沒有類似向美國白宮發表的這樣子國安備忘錄規範政府使用AI技術的框架?目前有沒有?"},{"start":8934.915,"end":8954.406,"text":"跟委員報告,因為AI的進步太快,所以它延伸的便利同時也會帶來很多的威脅所以剛委員提到美國,除了美國以外,歐盟他也在今年提出了人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣的"},{"start":8956.553,"end":8976.146,"text":"兼顧到AI使用同時,能兼顧到它不要無用去控。我們國家目前是有國科會,他有在草擬一個人工智慧的一個基本法,那這個部分已經我們政府機關已經討論了很多次,應該年底前應該會交互行政院來做討論。"},{"start":8978.928,"end":8994.608,"text":"本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的一個討論也提供相關的意見那這個目的是兼顧鼓勵創新還有兼顧人民的權益委員剛剛考量了在人工智慧基本法案裡面"},{"start":8995.669,"end":9014.284,"text":"有明確的要求那就是要兼顧到既有我們的人民的一個人權跟基民資訊的維護還有不能夠濫用它這個是在基本法已經有框定對基本法因為我想那個本來就是基本的就是說就是像美國歐盟"},{"start":9015.124,"end":9015.724,"text":"現在進度簡單說明就好進度就好"},{"start":9040.359,"end":9063.154,"text":"報告委員那個進度的部分我們已經送到行政院了所以行政院在這邊會再做跨部會整體的一個討論所以目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分嗎對不對不是是AI基本法基本法對可是它內容針對的部分是只有政府部門還是包含比如說工商業界還有科技界"},{"start":9066.317,"end":9080.034,"text":"報告委員,它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的整體的這個政策的方針那主要是先規範政府的一些相關的施政對,因為你現在只有對政府嘛,可是"},{"start":9080.995,"end":9085.917,"text":"現在它日新月異然後它技術不斷地在進步的當下我們到年底才可以出來可是你到年底之前你推出的還只是政府的部分我們剛剛提到的你包括像工商界包括科技界包括很多運用在人民的身上因為現在大家看到的而且最在乎的除了剛剛這些以外因為像我們的報告都集中在對應像境外組織還有科技的運用"},{"start":9109.025,"end":9113.487,"text":"可是資安的錯假訊息他人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案那目前為止像包括美國股神巴菲特他在5月份對股東股東會對人工智慧也發出警語他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐那社群媒體他所"},{"start":9132.774,"end":9133.955,"text":"我們目前對於詐騙這樣的效果,您覺得好嗎?"},{"start":9158.363,"end":9181.84,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們在相關社群媒體有關於可能涉及詐騙的這些效果好不好我們現在今年度我們已經通報這相關的這公司下架了11萬多則的一個這些可能涉及詐騙的一個廣告所以這部分我們在跟相關公司的聯繫上效果是算不錯的當然還有一些還要帶"},{"start":9182.58,"end":9187.801,"text":"在努力進步的地方因為確實相關的報告我們效果不錯如果就我們說效果不錯可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件到現在2023年已經暴增到超過三萬五千件如果是今年其實它的那個成長的速度更高它甚至招詐的損失去年就是88.7億這個還是有報案的數據那有很多如果比較小額的或者大家沒有報案的其實多不勝數"},{"start":9211.428,"end":9214.491,"text":"所以如果說像這樣一直增加的情況之下我們還認為說我們效果不錯那不錯在哪裡他為什麼還是會一直增加然後他問題會出現在哪裡我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案在警政署上面其實我覺得可能也有很多自愛難行的地方對於基層的員警現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方"},{"start":9235.112,"end":9235.913,"text":"請教副局長我們當時在防疫的時候"},{"start":9261.812,"end":9289.563,"text":"我們臺灣號稱我們的防疫做得非常不錯那原因是什麼就我們副局長您的分析防疫為什麼做得不錯就我們防疫來講我覺得那個我們政府在邊境的控管還有相關的一個這個機制通報機制跟應酬機制方面來講有做很多的努力"},{"start":9291.815,"end":9295.877,"text":"所以當那個會影響到而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌其實我們用很多的方式讓我們在防疫的作為上面其實是有效的就是在我們的整個防疫的措施上面其實是有效的那有很重要的一點其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷的在提醒民眾"},{"start":9313.643,"end":9316.986,"text":"說我們這個防疫應該怎麼做你的口罩應該怎麼戴你應該要做什麼樣什麼樣的一個預防措施或怎麼樣的防範其實做了非常的多其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播我像我剛剛講的我們所有的警察同仁他都是"},{"start":9334.582,"end":9334.642,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9365.403,"end":9381.72,"text":"說法部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官他們認為說我們是三大戰犯之一就是說我們對於台灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防治或者說去做更有效的一個宣傳"},{"start":9382.521,"end":9388.983,"text":"或者在我們的技術上面沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止那訴發部像這樣子你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳我剛剛有講的防疫因為你讓每個人都知道我應該要怎麼做然後我應該什麼不能做如果你把很多的錢要拿出去出國還不如用在很多在宣傳上面這部分訴發部的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":9407.19,"end":9428.826,"text":"是 非常感謝那個委員那個基本上我認為說臺灣之前在防疫之所以做得特別好就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作面對這個狀況所謂的政府呢包含行政部門也包含立法部門然後在行政部門當然也要分工然後在那個打砸議題這件事情上面的話"},{"start":9429.566,"end":9457.839,"text":"你告訴我們怎麼做就好那我跟委員報告一下基本上現在的詐騙它也是一個產業鏈它這個做法是這樣子就是說詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平台上它會放一個廣告把那個民眾騙到Line的那個視頻空間裡面然後發布負責的事情就是在前端我們盡量避免讓民眾被騙到這個小房間Line的小房間裡面去進行詐騙的工作那至於那個"},{"start":9458.819,"end":9471.909,"text":"後面的詐騙發生以後那就是警政署還有那個金管會他們要做的事情所以我們整個政府應該是一個團隊我們一起合作來面對這個事情那你簡單的告訴我們因為你不管是前段後段現在不管哪一段反正就是都是破口啦所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛我們要知道的是政府的具體作為我剛剛已經建議如果速發部有這麼高額的預算"},{"start":9486.32,"end":9489.483,"text":"是不是你應該提醒隨時24小時你不管從哪一個管道不管從社群網站也好或者從媒體也好或者從其他的可以發聲的管道也好其實盡量讓人民知道說現在有什麼樣的我用什麼樣的詐騙手法我今天有什麼樣因為至少每天提醒人家就會有所警惕你今天不是啊你等到後面你要去抓要去"},{"start":9513.702,"end":9530.284,"text":"去預防什麼其實你大概目前為止你們是做不到的而且是做得不好所以民眾才會有感而且會對政府不信任所以就這個部分速發部可以做到什麼簡單說就好了就是就是像你在宣傳上面你們可以配合做到什麼"},{"start":9531.004,"end":9556.673,"text":"我們可以做到的事情一個當然就是像委員所講的加強宣導另外我們就是利用那個網路的機制接受民眾的報案民眾的報案以後我們就趕快的去那個分報案以後通常都來不及了不是我講的是說那個前面廣告的部分這就是我前面講的就是分工的部分我們負責的是前端那這個地方只是偽冒比如說就是所謂的impersonation就是仿冒名人的這個部分然後我們就會比如說如果有人仿冒那個"},{"start":9557.213,"end":9558.594,"text":"你沒有聽清楚我講的話如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關的金融代表性的人物或者"},{"start":9579.482,"end":9587.925,"text":"像一些代表性今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員嘛就是說大家如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些你應該不斷不斷的提醒不是當你發生的時候你去告訴謝金河那已經被騙一堆啦你應該要站在更前面速發部不要編了錢然後你做的事情是都是在後端的"},{"start":9600.61,"end":9606.053,"text":"反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同所以在這裡今天時間的關係就這個部分我覺得對於詐騙案人民才是有感的我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外我們無能為力我再次強調我們無能為力"},{"start":9617.159,"end":9620.963,"text":"像這樣被騙到緬甸或其他地方這也都是詐騙它有不斷不斷的一直在發生而且手段越來越殘忍然後他要的金額也很多他騙去以後他大概就是索一些他的贖金"},{"start":9635.619,"end":9650.491,"text":"有沒有讓他回來我們不曉得這個部分請國安單位也持續掌握還有我們警政署好不好那因為今天大概可能也沒有一個具體的一個結論跟說法就這個部分訴發部或者我們警政署可以有什麼樣積極的作為再提供給我們更詳細的一個具體的一個書面資料請國安局一定要掌握這個部分這個這個比其他的可能危害我們國家或者人民的信心更重"},{"start":9666.745,"end":9669.911,"text":"謝委員謝謝馬文君委員那先休息五分鐘"},{"start":10031.874,"end":10036.196,"text":"那繼續開會接下來我們請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席我請國安局張副局長還有我們數發部次長調查局副局長"},{"start":10065.145,"end":10069.666,"text":"好大家好辛苦了先來看一個影片沒有聲音好等一下不好意思要重開"},{"start":10090.529,"end":10091.769,"text":"其實這個影片非常清楚的就是這個影中人"},{"start":10124.073,"end":10134.265,"text":"只是畫面拉大仔細看男子嘴形和說話速度不一致臉部嘴角過於平整像是後製剪接用來這段影片卻是詐騙集團利用AI技術製作假影"},{"start":10135.1,"end":10152.828,"text":"好那這影片其實呢也是利用AI來製作而主要的就是來做詐騙那今天當然我們很關心的也就是這個AI影片它對國安的一些威脅可是事實上跟人民現在最有感的就是來自於這些的詐騙"},{"start":10154.449,"end":10166.499,"text":"他把這些財經名人他是真的但是他把它製作成就是按照他的這個也許他只是一個什麼說明然後變成是一個詐騙的工具我們也可以看到事實上我們今年以來我們一直在打詐打詐雖然打詐司法上路但是光是投資的詐騙"},{"start":10181.351,"end":10202.445,"text":"我們每一個月10月跟9月都超過4000件這是每個月都在增加另外呢光是台北市投資詐騙就被騙走15億一個月台北市一個月投資詐騙就有15億之多所以像這樣的這個"},{"start":10204.606,"end":10211.87,"text":"那些恐怕對他們當事人來講當然會覺得很困擾也很生氣可是對民眾來講他就是直接的是他的金錢的損失所以我想請問哪一位長官可以回覆我一下"},{"start":10228.32,"end":10235.984,"text":"像這樣的AI假影片的詐騙到底有沒有辦法防堵?我們現在有些什麼樣的策略?"},{"start":10237.546,"end":10257.098,"text":"委員好,我想我先回答,這是管局,那等一下如果相關的那個單位也可以補充來說明,那針對這種AI的技術的演進,它生成這種深偽的影片,這應該已經是趨勢了,這個沒有辦法阻擋,所以重點是… 氾濫,它不是趨勢,氾濫"},{"start":10258.399,"end":10279.475,"text":"他已經是一個氾濫但是重點就是我們如何應處那事實上這個假影片也好或者是偵訊也好那我們政府之間已經有成立一個機制了包括本局是負責這種偵訊的一個情報的掌搜如果涉及國安跟社安"},{"start":10280.576,"end":10300.347,"text":"這部分我們會立刻的掌搜以後透由我們在之前跟政府相關部門成立的一個機制去做辯委、溯源、處理那經由相關的單位來做事實的澄清如果涉及到違法的話那就會"},{"start":10301.508,"end":10326.34,"text":"後由我們的警察司法機關去請這個平台業者能夠下架那所以機制是有的現在是怎麼快速的應酬因為這個數量可能會越來越多現在你們快速你們有沒有定一個時間比如說你們必須在多久時間只要有人去通報檢舉你們必須在多少時間之內要把它檢舉掉跟我們報告這個部分重點還是在我們一方面機制有了"},{"start":10326.9,"end":10346.907,"text":"另外一方面我們要有相關的一個技術的引入因為用AI速度太快所以我們在我們報告裡面有提到我們會引用最新的技術不斷的去引用最新的技術那技術只有國安局有嗎?光只有你們有些來不及的我們相關的警察機關他們目前也有建立這樣的能量跟機制"},{"start":10348.359,"end":10348.559,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告"},{"start":10363.639,"end":10379.833,"text":"在調查局的部分我們是受理案件的部分當有這個案件成立、立案之後我們局裡面會先發動分析鑑識我知道法務部調查局是有鑑識的海刑事局也有"},{"start":10380.653,"end":10404.261,"text":"對,所以我們和刑事局其實是有一個共通的使用兩種工具然後基本上我們的同仁會在open source裡面先去做一些應用然後再使用鑑識工具去判別那理論上我們最快可以在至少在兩個小時內我們就可以把這個鑑識的成果先去做出來兩個小時就可以鑑識成果對不對就可以初步判定它是不是真的還假的"},{"start":10405.701,"end":10427.206,"text":"其實過去有好幾個政治人物的影片,到現在都沒有見識結果,所以不要變成一個只是用政治解決。好,我想問一下速發部,前兩天發生一個事情,就是Meta亂槍打鳥,該下架的沒下架,不該下架人家正版的正牌的下架,然後最離譜的連我們證交所的粉專都被人家下架,請問為什麼?"},{"start":10428.986,"end":10430.887,"text":"發生什麼事情?這太扯了吧?"},{"start":10430.887,"end":10445.153,"text":"非常感謝委員給我這個機會說明對 趕快說明這個事情發生以後呢我們事實上當下我們也不知道到底發生了什麼事情因為我們速發布在那段時間你到下午都不知道發生什麼事後來知道了 那我先委員請聽我說"},{"start":10449.042,"end":10477.042,"text":"那我們不管怎樣我們就是馬上那個跟臉書聯絡然後幫那些被那個下架的那些那個財經粉讓他恢復那個上架後來據我們的了解就是說是那個內政部警政署他們在通報一批那個疑似那個詐騙網站的時候結果Facebook他的海外的執行單位因為他的溝通發生問題結果他們把那些"},{"start":10478.403,"end":10481.625,"text":"這問題是內政部警政署的問題嗎?主席給我一點時間,內政部警政署今天副局長在,是你們出包嗎?蘇巴布現在把鍋丟到你這裡"},{"start":10496.616,"end":10499.498,"text":"並不是警政署、刑事警察局這邊的問題而是臉書他們內部有個篩選機制在聯繫作業的部分他們發生這個問題他怎麼會篩到正版的呢?這個黑名單應該是我們送上去的嘛我們送給業者請他要趕快下架為什麼一些正版的包括我們證交所"},{"start":10518.055,"end":10518.095,"text":"託備下架"},{"start":10531.233,"end":10552.913,"text":"是真實的這部分我們有提供個白名單給他們可是他們內部在篩選機制的時候所以我們把白名單給刪掉了他們把白名單給下架他們聯繫上可能發生了一些問題所以是Meta的問題是是他們的海外問題是他們海外那邊的問題所以我們立刻跟他們反映之後他當天晚上就把這些屬於真實的網站都把它做恢復"},{"start":10553.975,"end":10580.885,"text":"因為我不想佔用下面委員時間那拜託請書發部請我們的警政署可不可以有一個機制我們現在是該下架的沒有下架他都活得好好的然後呢這些正版的包含我們官方的政教所算官方的這個網站都被下架這真的是很奇怪的一件事情可不可以把這個機制你們再把它弄得更清楚一些"},{"start":10582.005,"end":10582.185,"text":"王洪維委員"},{"start":10612.884,"end":10638.688,"text":"接下來我們請賴司保委員上台質詢。謝謝主席。幾個先進。有請國安局的張副局長、書發部的林次長、法務部調查局的吳副局長、警政署的林副局長。好不好一起,七個長官一起。委員好。"},{"start":10642.844,"end":10670.409,"text":"來我們看一下我看了一些資料不知道國安局長官可不可以回答或者調查局的怎麼樣因應頻繁的AI資安攻擊過去半年內台灣每個禮拜遭受2934的網路攻擊是全球平均被攻擊的2.7倍"},{"start":10673.001,"end":10682.037,"text":"我們是AI之島結果變成是被攻擊之島這個國安局長要不要先講一下我們KPI是什麼這個怎麼因應"},{"start":10685.037,"end":10708.598,"text":"謝謝委員 這個問題確實是非常重要跟嚴峻那尤其AI的AI尤其生成室出來以後他很容易製造出一些仿真的釣魚郵件還有他很容易去歸納去分析系統防禦的漏洞所以這個攻擊的太陽會越來越多然後速度會越來越快"},{"start":10709.258,"end":10730.573,"text":"所以這個部分為什麼台灣為什麼大家對台灣這麼有興趣為什麼呢為什麼這個樣子我想這個應該是一個普遍的現象普遍喔所以全世界也喜歡攻擊台灣台灣因為我們有目前因為國防委員會大所以被攻擊"},{"start":10732.495,"end":10738.983,"text":"跟委員報告那我想這個是一個趨勢所以剛提的趨勢你怎麼講趨勢呢這個而且我們活該被攻擊怎麼這樣子講呢趨勢現在攻擊台灣是趨勢你講對還講不對我講的是AI"},{"start":10749.375,"end":10763.648,"text":"AI生成的攻擊會是一個趨勢那如何防範其實有幾個部分你不要給我時間有限你不要給我講架構書的你怎麼做啦你們國安局有沒有針對這個事情立一個專案討論還是立一個什麼因應小組什麼專門針對這個"},{"start":10769.833,"end":10784.6,"text":"我們局裡在幾年前我們都成立了AI小組去蜜鑄這個AI的技術我們不只用坊間的怎麼會是成立幾年了這個怎麼會越被攻擊越來越多怎麼會怎麼樣怎麼會一塌糊塗沒辦法攔住"},{"start":10788.882,"end":10798.033,"text":"法務委員,供給發息我們不可控,可是我們可以有效的防禦,這是我們可以做的。越防禦越多啊,來來來,請教蘇華部的市長、林市長,這個現象怎麼樣避免啊,怎麼會我們這麼慘啊?"},{"start":10806.466,"end":10828.624,"text":"是先跟委員報告我們台灣受到很多的資安攻擊這的確是事實因為我們都知道美中現在已經進入第二次冷戰的那個態勢然後在那個Geopolitics上面我們台灣是在所謂的最前線所以會有一些境外不友善國家他們的那些平常有時候我覺得他們都是在練兵哪些國家是哪些國家的攻擊我們最有興趣哪幾個國家"},{"start":10830.41,"end":10854.886,"text":"當然就是中國大陸還有北韓還有俄羅斯其實俄羅斯非常多俄羅斯會不會因為我們過去罵俄羅斯所以更多會不會有可能會是但是他們通常做這個攻擊他們就是為了彰顯一些政治的訴求所以我們對這種他們的政治訴求我們也不想要讓他們炒熱新聞我們就做好我們的防禦"},{"start":10856.647,"end":10863.511,"text":"對,也不是不要理他,我們要做成事前事終以及事後的防禦,事前,謝謝來來來,我們看一下,國安局有精進的防..."},{"start":10884.26,"end":10903.645,"text":"報告委員,我們沒有這個機器狗,不過我們會關注AI在這個運用上你現在機器狗現在已經加入川普的一個海服裝員的巡邏了,已經加入了我們會密註,事實上我們一直有在密註AI它運用在軍事或其他的國安威脅的用途,這個情訊我們一直在掌說我唸你不要岔題啊"},{"start":10906.741,"end":10925.212,"text":"國安局有沒有針對機器狗現在已經加入了這個一些的一個一些攻擊做一些防禦的措施有沒有機器狗這部分假如老共這是老共的老共如果弄機器狗來攻擊台灣我們有沒有一些因應的"},{"start":10928.186,"end":10953.865,"text":"這個無人載具我們看到我們其實掌握到就是中國大陸那邊針對無人載具不僅機器狗無人機無人的潛航器無人艇發展都非常的快速結合他們AI的投資和投入這個我們相信這是未來我們非常持續要掌搜關注的議題那這個議題我們掌搜到以後我們會提供給相關單位來做參數"},{"start":10955.233,"end":10975.065,"text":"我們有沒有一套的一個因應的整個的做法有沒有還是還沒有還是在developing這個部分因為如果涉及軍事的話會有國防部他們會去做一些評估跟應處那對本局來講會掌收這種趨勢跟威脅來提供相關單位來應處這個什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":10978.852,"end":10979.132,"text":"最後一個各單位聽好"},{"start":11008.587,"end":11025.621,"text":"刑事警察局採購了深偽影像檢測平台花1000多萬法務部調查局這裡花了870萬高雄市刑事警察大隊花了44萬數位部前瞻計劃研發多媒體監視平台1300萬零零總總"},{"start":11031.723,"end":11058.456,"text":"選舉期間警政署調查局還成立了AI深層深度偽造假訊息處理中心我實際有些我就請教國安局或者是數法部這裡你們有沒有一個整合單位啊就是對於AI這個深偽這部分專門成立一個小組把它整合一下你看各單位都在都在花錢啊都在花錢有沒有這個東西"},{"start":11059.516,"end":11083.028,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上深偽這是徵訊根的一個延伸,是手段的不同也就是說假訊息這個呈現的方式有文字、有語音、現在有影像越做越仿真,加了AI技術以後事實上本局跟我們相關政府機關和我們警政署幾個司法警察調查局"},{"start":11084.269,"end":11109.178,"text":"已經成立一個這種假訊息的防制的一個機制平臺所以針對這個AI在這樣的新的一個現象也在這個平臺我們會有討論透過這個剛剛看到這幾個部分有些是我們共同討論出來因為AI的發展太快速我們必須要有這些高新的一個AI技術設備我們才有辦法去因應這樣的一個"},{"start":11111.645,"end":11140.192,"text":"虛假訊息的一個應酬就是說你們現在已經有一個整合的是你們整合是吧?國安局整合還是數法部?我們是掌搜是情報體系去掌搜這個訊息那另外我們應酬是有政府體系那我們這個數法部有沒有接受你的指揮有沒有?這部分數法部是應酬的一環那我們是掌搜的一環所以但是兩個是最後一個問題大家很關心的"},{"start":11141.789,"end":11162.045,"text":"就是蔡英文前總統她被這個升委之後一天就找到IP了其他人都找不到啊幾個月都找不到啊包括鄭文燦的找不到包括這個其他我們的立委立委們這個弄了老半天找不到就是外界質疑啊"},{"start":11163.635,"end":11179.31,"text":"你們在追這個事情的時候還大笑眼淚還看背後是誰受害哎呀這個蔡總統這個這個亮度很夠啊馬上一天你看拜託你們也很有能力啊其他人搞一個月都搞不到我這個東西"},{"start":11180.421,"end":11201.589,"text":"副局長要不要解釋一下發委員我們在處理這個訊息的過程有一套機制一套程序影響到國家安全或社會安寧這種影響擴大快速的話我們會優先來處理所以總統優先其他不優先發委員不是這樣就是說我們看到這樣的這個議題跟現象外界高度質疑"},{"start":11202.389,"end":11211.177,"text":"就是看人在辦案啦不是因為身份啦是看他影響國安跟涉案的程度還有發生的現象立委是沒有涉國安都沒關係每天來現在立委就有被我們那個是有分級啦是一般一般民眾還是影響國安是阿沒有錯阿所以總統比較短時間快速阿立委就慢慢來阿立委不重要就這樣啊大小就這樣"},{"start":11228.067,"end":11230.668,"text":"接下來我們請侯孟楷委員上台質詢"},{"start":11266,"end":11293.676,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩我們請國安局副局長然後那個速發部次長以及內政部警政署我們刑事局副局長委員好來我先請教一下我們次長那個速發部次長跟我們警政署是剛剛有委員在講也是一樣上個禮拜這個臉書粉專被吳玉璟下架我先釐清第一速發部說這不是速發部的關係"},{"start":11295.236,"end":11319.325,"text":"那警政署講是說我們有黑名單跟白名單提供了白名單給臉書結果臉書內部溝通問題造成把白名單下架是不是那我先請教一下白名單、黑名單這照理講臉書他是上市公司、商業公司啊還需要我們警政署來幫他確認是說哪一個粉專是真的哪一個粉專是假的"},{"start":11320.52,"end":11346.398,"text":"我們警政署怎麼那麼貼心啊因為這些假冒名人的粉專這些廣告非常的多那為了便利啊這Meta公司我們希望他能夠加強內部的一個神和所以我們也提供白名單如果有發現不是這些我們所提供白名單我們希望他們能夠主動神和下架但目前比較多的是我們發現這可能是我們提供多少白名單給他我們有"},{"start":11349.042,"end":11374.68,"text":"一批的白名單,詳細數字我這邊沒有,抱歉就從過去到現在一直收集的名單,是不是?我們會去做確認,這段時間都有持續再去做確認這些屬於真實的這些名單那我們警務同仁為了打詐還要去確認這個粉磚到底是不是真的是不是那個當事人擁有的然後速發布"},{"start":11375.649,"end":11382.051,"text":"被粉專下架之後我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專業救回來有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊這樣我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟是不是"},{"start":11392.111,"end":11405.783,"text":"臉書是一個上市公司他是國際公司大家都用沒有錯我尊重但重點在於是說當他已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫他確認是說這個粉絲專頁是不是真的"},{"start":11408.342,"end":11426.993,"text":"然後真的粉絲專業正牌的被下架之後找臉書要找誰?他台灣沒有設客服我們速發不便是還要當他客服還要接了這些陳情之後然後跟臉書來通知那我請教啊到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎?有承認錯誤嗎?也沒有欸市長我看你講是說你說"},{"start":11439.093,"end":11452.422,"text":"宿發部同仁收到陳情連夜加班跟臉書協調處理是臉書的客服咧如果說他是一個商業行為商業模式我們宿發部是主管機關照理講我們是應該要求臉書"},{"start":11454.013,"end":11467.882,"text":"去解決他們衍生出來的問題就不是啊我們變成是克服專線24小時不打烊臉書同仁來加班接受陳情之後然後欸臉書你們出包了趕快恢復那臉書現在咧他說據瞭解媒體報導臉書向速發部說明內部調查結果並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤會精進流程"},{"start":11482.759,"end":11493.563,"text":"他就跟訴發部講一下然後也沒有對外說明好像這件事情跟他都沒關係沒藥沒緊結果我們的警政署我們的訴發部兩大部會變成是要扛責任會不會覺得委屈啊會會怎麼辦啊"},{"start":11501.724,"end":11522.142,"text":"委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受因為像這個現在這個國際的這種媒體聚壽實在是各國對各國政府來講都是很頭痛的問題事實上美國也舉辦很多聽證會但是因為這些企業實在是太大了那以臉書來講的話大就可以法外之地嗎?大就可以不受控制嗎?"},{"start":11522.762,"end":11534.25,"text":"所以事實上臉書之前的問題是在於說他們在台灣的這種法尊部門只有兩個人但是他的業務部門很大但他們講的是互相不隸屬的他們向上的那個報告的那個網上報告的話他們的法尊部門是"},{"start":11538.332,"end":11561.018,"text":"報告給新加坡的那個亞太中心然後他們的銷售部門是那個report給那個香港的那個中心然後兩邊在通通report到美國的總部去所以我以前我們跟他的法尊部門要求這些事情要求那個事情的時候我們一直跟他要求可是他們就是說沒辦法後來我們也坦白講我們也覺得說那兩位同仁真的臉書的同仁真的很可憐一直被罵"},{"start":11561.698,"end":11588.729,"text":"所以後來我們的方法我們就是直接去找那個新加坡的那個亞太區總部去跟他去開會去跟他討論然後呢我們也會接下來也會跟那個事實上美國的那個加州的總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情了然後每當我們跟美國的不管是行政部門或者是他的立法部門就他國會的那些有人來參訪的時候我們也是在跟他們講這個事情所以我們希望透過美國的輿論就給他施加壓力"},{"start":11591.57,"end":11607.695,"text":"事實上也必須講句公道話就是說臉書它事實上它有在持續改進那但是只是說這是還要幫他講話市長我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明就是因為我覺得其實公務同仁很辛苦啊是"},{"start":11608.916,"end":11632.977,"text":"這一件事情如果我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的喔我現在姑且相信講說這速發部沒有提供資料而是內政部警政署提供資料但是你們提供的是正確的資料是臉書內部搞錯我都先相信因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話那如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題但到目前為止三天四天了臉書沒有一個正式的回應"},{"start":11634.912,"end":11642.321,"text":"大家捕風捉影然後要求你們來去做說明我什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟大"},{"start":11643.424,"end":11671.07,"text":"美國其他國家即便是這樣子我相信都會有相關的法令臉書你過去講這些東西我也都了解但是不能說有一家公司來台灣賺很多錢要求投廣告可是他沒有負起相關的責任那我們難道沒有任何的因應作為嗎你身為數位發展部的主管機關其實我們要的是數位發展部當初成立的宗旨跟目的也就是要對於數位世界"},{"start":11671.75,"end":11678.522,"text":"有任何的亂象要去試著去控制試著去管理這是你們的宗旨啊市長所以這件事情"},{"start":11682.625,"end":11707.027,"text":"要怎麼因應?要怎麼改進?非常感謝委員,事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年的7月通過了打詐專法然後在打詐專法的第31條跟第32條我能不能要求臉書,因為之前我質詢部長部長講說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡甚至我講說你們的APP裡面通報案件上個月10萬零5千件其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙"},{"start":11708.368,"end":11714.637,"text":"包括用Meta、用MetaMessage、用IG、用臉書都有那我講是說如果說九成的詐騙的管道都是從Meta來的話那難道不能先要求他們源頭管理嗎我才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊"},{"start":11723.57,"end":11750.741,"text":"是 非常感謝委員事實上就是現在有了打仗那如果說他來喝咖啡喝不行那就請他喝禁酒啊禁酒喝不行喝罰酒啊完全同意賺錢我就我一樣開罰啊是 那現在有了打仗專法預計在11月底就要正式那個施行了然後接下來就有任何的這種狀況的話我們就可以直接開罰了這一點要非常感謝立法院通過這個而且我覺得最重要這件事情不在於在於是說臉書"},{"start":11752.222,"end":11772.84,"text":"他不能躲在幕後是然後還讓我們工務同仁加班是來謝謝次長跟那個分局長那抱歉那個國安局啊一件事情因為賴司法委員剛剛幾個委員都問到了我只是請教高嘉瑜前委員直接說因為他的這個深偽的影片"},{"start":11773.661,"end":11790.96,"text":"您有看到嗎?有看到因為上禮拜我講說這其實蠻明目張膽的因為第一他也算是公眾人物有名第二他用的是上政論節目的畫面那政論節目每天都會有YouTube上所以說他到底是講真的講假的一目了然"},{"start":11791.781,"end":11814.116,"text":"可是居然會有人刻意去編造用AI來去做深偽的影片那我想請教這已經從上個禮拜高嘉瑜前委員也報案了那目前為止有進度嗎目前應該是由我們警察單位來受理在做偵辦哪一個可以說明一下現在有沒有進度有沒有查到兇手出處來源"},{"start":11816.069,"end":11836.449,"text":"官委報告 高介委員這個被偽造的影像是出自在中國大陸的一個抖音那他是一個三次郎工作室那邊所發布的部分那據我們了解這個發布人他現在也被抖音了因為他發布過都已經被禁權了那有關於抖音的部分因為是屬於中國大陸的這個網路"},{"start":11838.01,"end":11865.039,"text":"我服務平台業者我們沒辦法去要求他們來進行下架所以在國內的部分大概只能用TWLink的部分做網域封鎖來做處理那我想確認兩件事情因為我本席很關心我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒尤其用這種深偽技術來去擾亂社會秩序如果說不是他講的話的話我覺得任何人都不應該那這請教兩個部分你們就掌握了解這是集團犯罪還是個人行為"},{"start":11866.119,"end":11871.581,"text":"目前能看到他所發布是個人來推斷目前能從他發布的部分只能推斷他是個人來發布那這一批裡面除了高嘉瑜被仿冒還有沒有其他"},{"start":11890.595,"end":11915.664,"text":"他還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有跟委員報告說他在發布的影像裡面他就已經在影片上他已註明是深層製造的影會有註明嗎他底下有深層製造但是後來經過這個他可能是用TikTok或是用抖音可是因為他也可以被下載所以下載完之後如果再繼續轉傳的話你就沒有辦法掌握是不是這樣"},{"start":11916.221,"end":11943.715,"text":"這要看他的影像本身 原本上面的影像還沒有再被變質過如果是有再去做其他處理的話 這我們不管保證好 來 那副局長 最後我只講因為這樣的一個深偽技術 其實大家都要防範我覺得這還是算是第一階廣傳 可是大家可以分辨有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨譬如說 我只是簡單舉 因為我時間也到了但是我必須還是要再次提醒"},{"start":11945.22,"end":11960.503,"text":"阿湯哥的不可能任務有沒有看過就新這一集還沒看致命清算有沒有他致命清算還沒看但他已經去年就上映了致命清算他講的其實就是深偽技術而我們知道好萊塢通常會把他拍出來"},{"start":11961.204,"end":11975.118,"text":"代表這個技術可能已經過15年了可能已經市面上已經5年了所以說才會變成是電影拍攝換言之電影沒有拍的可能更先進而裡面致命清算裡面我建議真的我們國安單位也一定要去看一下"},{"start":11975.82,"end":11989.986,"text":"並不是說娛樂更重要的是你要了解他裡面其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者的中斷的訊息給砍斷然後下達錯誤的資訊讓阿湯哥跑錯地方我覺得如果說這個技術真的被運用駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話那很危險變成是不管是"},{"start":12003.735,"end":12014.21,"text":"發生什麼意外狀況或什麼緊急狀況的時候我們的指揮中心跟我們的前線部隊有可能中間的這樣的一個訊息是不是會被入侵、被控制、被"},{"start":12017.282,"end":12043.747,"text":"委員提醒因為這個深層式AI這個出來以後一個技術很大的變革啦它能夠產製出我們很多以前想像不到的包括惡意城市嘛都可以自動深層所以委員講這個部分我們會持續關注這種AI眼鏡然後驅動的這些威脅樣態事實的長收以後會提供給我們相關的"},{"start":12044.267,"end":12048.573,"text":"這真的應該要適時掌收好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝紅夢凱委員謝謝副局長那請葛無菊委員上台質詢"},{"start":12067.699,"end":12074.418,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請速發部次長、林次長跟內政部警政署的代表 謝謝"},{"start":12079.145,"end":12103.439,"text":"市長好副局長您好我想前幾天大家真的很驚嚇就是有非常多的粉專被下架那當你搜尋這些所謂的網紅結果找到的都是像下面的右下角的這種詐騙反而真的找不到假的一大堆那包含我們的證交所也受到波及"},{"start":12104.38,"end":12132.312,"text":"那我首先還是要感謝這個次長齁週末加班發文那也有很多的同仁也許有加班齁那我想公務人員非常辛苦啦齁那最後大家都是要一起來努力的齁那至於次長您臉書有提到齁臉書有沒有接到其他單位的要求你不是很清楚齁那在這裡我想要先請教一下這個警政署副局長齁你有沒有發現這很可能是在暗指你們啊你有沒有發現"},{"start":12137.827,"end":12156.546,"text":"不知道副局長有沒有發現這個林次長底下的留言底下呢就有網紅貼上去說他們第一時間粉專恢復的時候收到臉書的通知說是來自Criminal Investigation Bureau的這個法律要求"},{"start":12157.963,"end":12167.271,"text":"這個是不是警政署嗎?對吧?內政部警政署的英文沒錯嗎?呃 刑事局的英文對 刑事局的英文那 是真的還是假的?"},{"start":12167.898,"end":12193.546,"text":"我們並沒有要求臨書去下架這些真實的粉專對嘛那這個是不是假的是不是AI深偽的這個是不是有人假造刑事局的身份去提出法律要求有沒有可能據我們了解是臨書他們內部在一個篩選機制上沒有我說這個通知他說是來自刑事局嘛"},{"start":12194.707,"end":12200.866,"text":"那你們又說沒有嘛對不對那有沒有要調查如果有人偽造嚴不嚴重"},{"start":12202.013,"end":12229.305,"text":"當然如果有人偽造是嚴重的那這是怎麼樣?他打錯字嗎?那要不要要求Meta出來說明?Meta他們本身我們是有提供一些黑名單就是我們從網路這些網路服務平台發現很多偽造的我們會請...不是,這是被錯下架的粉專說他們收到通知是警政署這裡的資訊嘛那這是不是有人偽造?還是是真的?這到底是真的還是假的?"},{"start":12229.685,"end":12244.365,"text":"跟委員報告,就我們的了解是臉書它內部的篩選機制它有不同部門,他們有認知臉書事務的問題他們現在就說是Criminal這個,這個刑事局嘛是那你們如果不背鍋要不要調查啊"},{"start":12245.376,"end":12267.065,"text":"這我們會再跟他反請他更正因為他們是內部的不同單位聯繫到底是不是警政署你現在說不出來嘛是不是有人偽造你也答不出來嘛那市長在臉書上面PO了底下也有人留言市長也按讚了那通報這邊有沒有通報警政署去了解有沒有你只要說有還是沒有速發部有沒有橫向通報"},{"start":12268.601,"end":12282.947,"text":"有還是沒有?國會殿堂請說有或沒有?是跟委員報告這因為不是我月館所以這個細節我我並不了解那可以調查一下嗎?我們待會會有具體要求再來那我想問一下速發部"},{"start":12284.567,"end":12308.602,"text":"書發部有沒有收集網紅白名單有還是沒有跟委員報告因為有一些網紅他們就一直跟我們澄清說他們希望進入白名單但是沒有收集是他們主動要求我們做這件事情你確定齁好OK那你沒有收集那這封信是不是假的是不是有人偽造你們提出提出收集"},{"start":12311.188,"end":12332.303,"text":"這不是你們嘛對不對這個我要去確認一下齁因為這個比較細緻的部分你沒辦法確認你剛剛又說沒有好沒關係我們今天就了解真相是這是不是你們這是不是錯假訊息這是不是AI深偽我們是數位發展部反詐騙工作小組這是網紅提出的喔截圖喔是還是不是"},{"start":12337.775,"end":12351.903,"text":"報告委員我們在國會殿堂因為我沒有看過這封信事情在禮拜五的深夜已經發生您週末也發文然後呢說同仁很辛苦都是Meta的錯都其他單位的錯那訴發部有沒有責任"},{"start":12355.685,"end":12382.64,"text":"我們當然有責任我們事實上我們不推委責任我們馬上加班去把這個事情給處理了說事發原因你們有沒有責任嘛沒關係那所以你們沒有收集白名單那我們之後再來瞭解啦我們非常有疑義說那你收集的目的是什麼如果你已經收集了又沒有辦法保護他們那到底目的是什麼你要收集個資嗎系統誤判、錯假下架、速發部有沒有責"},{"start":12383.752,"end":12401.907,"text":"有沒有責?如果發生錯假下架的話當然有責如果是責任在我們身上當然是有責如果是已經是我們造成的當然是我們沒有責任所以責任不在你們身上你們就沒有責所以如果不是你們造成的你就沒有責任嘛對不對?好很好"},{"start":12402.828,"end":12419.278,"text":"你們數位產業發展部平台經濟的業務就在你們的下轄的業務範圍之下是臉書是不是平台經濟是你們數發部有沒有付有沒有一些單位政府有沒有單位付他廣告費我們有這麼多的預算做網路行銷我們是不是都把他全部砍掉"},{"start":12425.762,"end":12449.536,"text":"再來,打詐專法通過了以後,詐欺有關的廣告業者的平台,是不是在你們下轄之下,你們有沒有責任?這方面當然有責任啊!對嘛!所以他就算只是他犯的錯,處罰部也有責任嘛!這寫得清清楚楚的啊!那您剛剛是不是現在打臉剛剛的你自己?就算是吧!"},{"start":12452.205,"end":12477.869,"text":"好 這個態度我們都錄下來沒有關係大家事實公平速發部這是您的美照謝謝你們要宣傳打詐的時候找平台業者來然後呢發生問題了說是平台業者的錯速發部沒有責任沒有關係我們不要去講這些有的沒的我們就只問一件事11月15號深夜從7點開始"},{"start":12481.769,"end":12484.371,"text":"大批網紅粉專下架什麼時候恢復的?次長知道嗎?"},{"start":12493.467,"end":12512.338,"text":"請問同仁報告委員大概12點陸陸續續然後12點13分的時候這個Meta有傳訊息給我已經陸陸續續已經恢復了然後我這邊會陸續有去監控我這邊有那裡的訊息也可以提供委員來看謝謝非常好 非常精準的回答那速發部什麼時候發布的回應"},{"start":12515.699,"end":12536.153,"text":"蘇發部什麼時候發布的回應?關於粉專已經恢復了出了這個大問題請民眾不要恐慌我們蘇發部已經在努力了你們什麼時候公開對這件事情發表回應的?什麼時候?這個我要回去查一下因為當初不是我自己回應的所以可能要請同仁說明一下"},{"start":12537.785,"end":12565.913,"text":"什麼時候來報告委員其實就像我覺得很多事情就像火災一樣發生的事情要趕快先處理三後所以目前來講其實一直以來我就一直在連續所有的粉磚直到所有的粉磚能夠確定恢復之後然後我們才來做適當的因應所以也因為這樣子到隔天的時候我們就通報次長然後報告次長說這個到底目前現在情況怎樣所以次長也在演說適當的人跟大家講然後所以才會有剛剛委員看的那一封信說請大家安心如果你還有什麼問題的話"},{"start":12566.773,"end":12592.102,"text":"當然我也知道委員也很關心我也持續關注委員的一些臉書也做一個所以我們一起來努力把這個整個事情發生當然就是我們要救災 把它處理好以上謝謝 謝謝委員首先速發部的預算如果不夠的話可以提出來啦你們有很多的單位不是你們在救災的時候你們有沒有收發室你們有沒有一些這個要上傳資訊的部門不要講得好像整個速發部所有的人"},{"start":12593.393,"end":12606.842,"text":"都在救災啊當然不是嘛那到現在速發部也沒有做官方的這個提出啊我們你們在事發的平台上面你們到現在都還沒有聲明為什麼我要提這件事啊跟市長說明"},{"start":12608.123,"end":12629.601,"text":"我在11月15號晚上11點09分請大家關注這件事也是希望平台業者希望我們的政府部會趕快來解決不然民眾很恐慌會不會還有下一波的問題等等確實如您所說凌晨12點13分左右就恢復了我的這個更新就是在那個時候PO的"},{"start":12629.861,"end":12653.672,"text":"因為沒有拿到也沒有得到速發部的任何聲明所以我們當然很抱歉我們並不知道同仁在進行加班所以呢我們在這裡是說感謝Meta因為按下恢復按鈕的還是他嘛因為那個平台不是我們的嘛所以我感謝Meta在全力奔走聯繫大家一起努力嘛對不對那恢復了請問我這樣PO有沒有問題有沒有問題沒有問題吧"},{"start":12659.115,"end":12684.203,"text":"我沒有發表沒有什麼問題啊對嘛結果底下一批人都在講說為什麼只感謝Meta今天我也感謝速發部為什麼因為我們後來知道嘛對不對我們後來知道嘛所以我想請問速發部大家都說這個您剛剛說沒有直接責任那我就請教速發部有沒有通報業者Meta做快速下架的機制你有沒有可能跟他聯動"},{"start":12685.901,"end":12696.096,"text":"是有可能啊有可能嘛對不對這是你們速發部的官網寫的嘛快速下架是由政府部門通報的詐騙嘛是你們有沒有可能不小心通報錯了"},{"start":12697.442,"end":12717.009,"text":"當然有可能,但是我們很小心就避免這種狀況那你的臉書上說沒有嘛對阿,那這件事情的確沒有阿,這件事情的確不是我們所謂通報的所以你們說沒有嘛,所以我確認一件事,因為網友都在講,訴發部沒有權力也沒有能力去下架詐騙粉專我就此請教你,你們有沒有能力通報並且下架粉專"},{"start":12719.77,"end":12732.019,"text":"我們有能力通報,那能不能直接命令他做下架到目前是不行的一個加大磚他已經通過了,但是還沒有正式施行所以如果有錯粉磚下架,也有可能是通報錯了,對不對?您就對或不對就好了是喔對嘛,沒錯嘛,因為這就是你們的紀錄嘛一個小時之內去幫這些商業的業者去下架錯假粉磚嘛"},{"start":12747.301,"end":12774.817,"text":"你們也有說跟44位名人建立通報管道這個就是你們所謂的白名單可能還有更多啦這是你們官網上寫的您剛剛說不清楚數量沒有關係今天其實我的要求非常的簡單謝謝主席給我時間講完這三個具體訴求希望我們的政府部會一起協助我們讓我們不要打詐越打越憂心讓大家可以有一個安心的資通安全的環境首先"},{"start":12776.341,"end":12790.051,"text":"請求內政部的警政署一週內提供Meta收到警政署相關單位的法律要求之內容及調查報告以確認是否有偽造警政單位之犯罪可不可以一週內"},{"start":12791.897,"end":12811.687,"text":"我們全力來達成全力來達成提供給本席另外第二點請事務發布一週內提供白名單到底要了多少人數資料的欄位到底要了哪些資訊因為這可能有個資或同意權的問題以及這個白名單跟這一次波及的網紅的重疊比例我都不需要知道是誰"},{"start":12812.587,"end":12834.202,"text":"我們保護他們的隱私但是相關的資訊我們希望知道去確認有沒有程序或資安的漏洞大家要一起來努力可以嗎一週內我們會再去掉那個各自的訊息我的要求已經是不需要各自了最後一點請速發部一週內提供關於次長有發文這段期間速發部並沒有發公文"},{"start":12838.385,"end":12852.717,"text":"也沒有用其他任何方式通知臉書請提供我資料具體指出到底是哪一段期間以及調查了哪些其他的任何方式提供給本席有沒有問題一周內沒有問題嗎事情發生是什麼時候"},{"start":12862.895,"end":12885.477,"text":"就是禮拜五晚上所以你們通報到他下架不需要時間是不是不是啊所以前五分鐘前一個小時都不需要提供嗎那個委員我在那段話後面還有就是說沒有用其他任何方式通知臉書我記得我是寫說通知臉書下架那些我這一段是完全複製貼上的你要回去看也可以"},{"start":12886.598,"end":12909.699,"text":"沒有關係我沒有要玩文字遊戲大家一起來協同瞭解情況文字提供給我您剛剛說這段期間是從發生的時候開始所以你的意思是說很可能五分鐘前事發前五分鐘你們可能有提供下架喔下架通報囉前一個小時你們可能有提供下架通報囉有沒有這個可能"},{"start":12910.64,"end":12930.25,"text":"您要好好仔細的瞭解這個狀況,確認一下您的意識到底是什麼,請速發布具體的回文給我們,這樣可以嗎?可以,可以,沒問題。謝謝,謝謝次長,謝謝主席。謝謝葛如君委員,那請各部門儘速提供資料給葛如君委員。接下來我們請楊瓊瑩委員上台質詢。"},{"start":12938.539,"end":12941.66,"text":"市長,從幾位委員在詢問當中,你很輕鬆,但是民眾都很緊張,所以我還是願意讓你講。"},{"start":12958.581,"end":12972.437,"text":"到底是怎麼回事因為從幾位委員的詢答當中還是沒有得到真正的你要說明的這個內容所以我願意跟你講講清楚到底怎麼回事從禮拜五開始"},{"start":12973.1,"end":12989.608,"text":"OK,非常謝謝委員,就禮拜五晚上,我們速發部陸續接到一些民眾的通報對,粉專被下架了,當然大家都會很緊張嘛,還會研發到哪些位置呢?大家都很緊張是,沒錯連公部門、證交所也影響到了,這怎麼辦?來請說說明"},{"start":12993.228,"end":12999.531,"text":"是 當下我們就接到這些通報以後呢我們就是馬上去處理就是說去聯絡臉書把這些那個粉磚就是正牌的粉磚你們馬上去聯絡嗎對 我們去那個跟臉書還"},{"start":13009.795,"end":13010.015,"text":"請行事局 請回座"},{"start":13038.368,"end":13053.141,"text":"到目前為止大家還是有很多的質疑那到底有沒有故意的情節有沒有到目前為止你們了解目前了解是沒有故意的"},{"start":13053.939,"end":13081.792,"text":"但目前為止了解是沒有故意的就我們了解是臉書公司他有個內部篩選機制他們單位之間聯繫的時候發生了問題所以不小心警政單位你們的說法是臉書自己出的問題他們內部的聯繫機制有發生的確定是他們內部出的機制問題目前了解是這樣目前了解是這樣子那你請回座來那個國安局長"},{"start":13088.629,"end":13088.791,"text":"委員好"},{"start":13089.668,"end":13119.108,"text":"我想你聽到現在各單位大家現在對於書發部的期待也很高當然對我們警政單位的期待都很高因為他是人民的保姆尤其AI的這個情況之下所以我本期要來請教我們國安局你面對AI可能帶來的資安外洩、資安危機政府你要怎麼去因應你光光一個粉磚下架大家眼神的恐慌"},{"start":13120.008,"end":13120.449,"text":"面對這種深層式AI的發起"},{"start":13144.565,"end":13162.695,"text":"然後可能我們要從他可能會構成什麼樣的威脅來談我們怎麼來因應首先他會快速的產製惡意程式第二個社交電郵那會更加仿真以前語文是障礙幾乎要百分之百"},{"start":13163.015,"end":13182.97,"text":"這件事已經不是障礙而且它快速還可以持續學習優化面對這樣的攻擊我們要從三個角度來看第一個就是應該要先有機制面機制面政府機關我相信都已經有一個既有的機制接下來是要落實強化舉個例子就是說第一個"},{"start":13184.774,"end":13194.786,"text":"剛剛樹花部次長也有提到我們因應這種邊界的設備可能遭受AI的漏洞攻擊目前我們看到這是越來越常見所以邊界設備應該要做好"},{"start":13198.621,"end":13223.643,"text":"相關的防護導入零信任甚至精明的資訊能夠做實體隔離避免駭客能夠直接碰觸另外一個就是要加強人員的資安意識資安意識包括剛剛講的社交工程的電由越來越仿真越來越精準所以只要是人員的資安意識就是遇到來路不明不要去點甚至應該要落實單位的資安規範"},{"start":13226.362,"end":13243.056,"text":"國安局如果以你目前給本席所做的說明你根本沒有辦法解決什麼問題那你請暫停我還是請訴發部喔市長你認為在剛剛國安局所說的說法當中在訴發部你可以扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":13244.112,"end":13254.137,"text":"抱歉委員請問是哪一個部分而且在整個這個害青的跟露餡的這個部分是非常的恐怖那你可以扮演什麼樣的這個角色"},{"start":13256.345,"end":13280.041,"text":"OK,我們速發部在這個AI的方面第一個當然就是說我們要就是在提供各種工具給這個內政部、警政署等或者是其他政府單位就是來對抗這些不管是假訊息或者是AI的那種風險那我們當然是速發部在這個在這個數位方面我們是主責單位所以所有這些方面"},{"start":13281.226,"end":13293.082,"text":"都是我們的責任,抱歉請問委員．倒是你的責任,我請問你們的橫向聯繫現在目前執行的情況怎麼樣?OK嗎?應該還可以應該還可以,為什麼發生了這麼多事情?"},{"start":13293.98,"end":13318.838,"text":"您是說這件事情指的是那個週末的這件事情而且訊息萬變所以我在這邊尤其剛剛國安特別講到了因為這世界各國因為整個是無國界的是無國界的在這樣的情況之下你要怎麼樣跟橫向所有相關去聯繫各國加強這一些相關的情資"},{"start":13320.99,"end":13346.591,"text":"事實上最近一直有一些友好國家包含一些先進國家還有一些開發中的民主國家他們都來台灣都跟我們在AI以及資安方面做很多的探討因為現在很多的資安攻擊都是跨國的而且會是跳轉的比如說他要攻擊台灣的話他可能先攻擊美國從美國再跳轉來攻擊台灣也可能先攻擊菲律賓當然所以可以看到這個嚴重性"},{"start":13349.713,"end":13377.341,"text":"是 這個是非常嚴重所以我們有很多橫向的溝通但是這方面的溝通通常是我們那個訴發部下屬的資安院那邊做這種溝通那這些溝通因為涉及到國安所以並不是說每一次的會面每一次的討論都會公開而且這個討論的細節更是不能就是隨意在媒體公開的你不用說每一次要公開我們民眾要的是一個答案是一個結果論民眾得到安全"},{"start":13377.921,"end":13403.201,"text":"是安心的一個生活是因為大家現在不安心是不安心謝謝那局長那個國安局我再請教美國在10月份的時候他發布了國家安全備忘錄對不對那他特別也把無甲大廈跟情報單位增加了這個AI的技術應用跟部署這是首次"},{"start":13404.042,"end":13407.444,"text":"建議維護美國與全球資訊網的安全來防止利用AI進行軍事情報活動這是首次對AI技術的使用、管理及相關風險具體因應措施"},{"start":13428.317,"end":13452.322,"text":"他期望在加強AI的技術網路安全、防情報、軍事研發等這些國家安全的領域當中都能夠同時透過相關的風險控管的規範他主要的目的就是要確保公民的權益不受侵犯但是我們現在感覺到臺灣的人民他的權力已經"},{"start":13453.402,"end":13472.82,"text":"非常不安心,你可以感同身受嗎?包委員,我們政府、國科會也同樣的訂定了我們國家的人工智慧積分法案,那這個法案裡面也是結合鼓勵創新跟"},{"start":13474.201,"end":13497.217,"text":"要兼顧到民眾的一個權益所以這裡面的一個精神裡面就有針對民眾的隱私權還有相關的權益的保障這個的應用定定的綱領的指引所以這個故事有在做你首先回答本校要請教的就是說你目前所說的這個是國會會他們所做的一個規範但在你國安局"},{"start":13498.098,"end":13512.363,"text":"美國都已經這麼做了備忘錄都已經出來我們國安局自己的備忘錄或者是指引你們的方向是什麼我們在去年事實上有跟依據行政院針對深層市"},{"start":13514.284,"end":13535.405,"text":"人工智慧使用的一個規範我們訂定一個作業原則提供給我們同仁來做指引這目的也是要第一個兼顧到AI的應用第二個要合規的應用然後能保障合乎我們現行的一個規定所以這個部分是我們在制度面上另外我們針對剛剛委員所提的美國這個針對軍情單位"},{"start":13539.188,"end":13545.991,"text":"你也可以看看他們有哪一些他既然公布我們會參考你們應該滾動式的趕快去看怎麼樣能夠讓我們的人民更加的安全委員我們這個內部已經有做過研究所以我們會參考美國訂定出來這樣的一個精神我們會檢討我們內部的一個機制朝向更加穩健的方式來發展"},{"start":13565.819,"end":13565.999,"text":"謝謝楊崇英委員"},{"start":13594.502,"end":13622.431,"text":"副局長和次長請回羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在何新淳、何新淳委員不在林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前委員不在吳立華、吳立華、吳立華委員不在接下來我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":13633.555,"end":13658.673,"text":"謝謝昭偉,麻煩有請國安局局長走了嘛,對不對?那是不是麻煩請副局長、法務部調查局副局長以及內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長三位好,時間的關係不宜問候今天我們在處理有關於"},{"start":13660.447,"end":13682.835,"text":"深偽以及錯假訊息對我們國家安全的影響以及因應這是一個非常嚴肅的課題之前我們在2021年的時候國安局就說了AI Deepfake危及國家安全要去訂因應的SOP那個時候應該是陳明通在立法院說的然後到了"},{"start":13688.291,"end":13711.369,"text":"今年的時候,你們在10月31號的書面報告說有會大量的製造深偽的影片、杜撰、錯假的訊息我今天看到了我們主要負責的一個是調查局,一個是內政部、警政署我先請教一下我們的內政部、警政署"},{"start":13713.171,"end":13729.19,"text":"你們在報告裡面的第二頁到第三頁說在2022年7月5號的時候,最高檢察署檢察總長召開的這個會議當中那包括你們跟調查局是主要的檢測機關嗎?"},{"start":13731.24,"end":13758.959,"text":"那你們說刑事警察局除了可以檢測真偽,也可以依照個案偵查其來源IP位置,也可以溯源偵辦?是的那你們刑事警察局真的可以檢驗真偽嗎?我們有相關的一個軟體,跟報告員我們有相關的一個檢測軟體來可以做相關的一個檢驗能力如何?當然他沒辦法百分之百,但我們可以再就他的實質內容沒辦法百分之百,那個軟體花多少錢?"},{"start":13760.729,"end":13768.392,"text":"我們是花了一千...兩個軟體大概一千萬兩個軟體大概一千萬兩個軟體一千萬是的花了一千萬的軟體辨別的能力現在有到幾%我請我們柯市長回答"},{"start":13777.025,"end":13802.973,"text":"報告委員因為AI的檢測本來就有一定的限制這我理解那我們跟調查局其實是有共同討論出來我們檢測的流程跟標準那根據這兩個軟體還有一些開源軟體以及我們去做一些事後的判斷所以有一套的檢測的方式來做檢測那我們不敢講說百分之百能夠檢驗的出來但是這一套的檢驗是經過大概百分之多少"},{"start":13805.273,"end":13824.144,"text":"我們有信心可以達到百分之九十五以上百分之九十五以上是,那有一些會有一些限制,譬如說影響沒有關係啊,我們等一下就你們遇到的限制再進一步討論因為深偽對台灣國家安全造成非常嚴重的影響"},{"start":13825.39,"end":13847.448,"text":"特別是如果老共拿來介入我們國家國內的事務這正是對我們的國家安全造成非常嚴重的威脅所以為什麼會排這樣子的專案報告我們就要深入的去了解我們被滲透的有多嚴重老共到底是怎麼搞的具體的案子現在處理的狀況到什麼樣子"},{"start":13850.356,"end":13876.459,"text":"你們在報告裡面講說從112年到113年10月辦理檢測的案件11件3件是總統、副總統選舉罷免法相關的案件其他的8件是刑事案件這11個案件都甄解了嗎?有些案件是送件單位那我沒有瞭解說他地檢署那邊甄解了沒?可以去追溯一下嗎?"},{"start":13877.52,"end":13895.57,"text":"我們可以了解這11個案件裡面偵查的情形因為吼你們已經標定11個案件出來了嘛這11個案件我們是有順利的抓到這些為非作歹做這種可惡至極的歹徒"},{"start":13896.896,"end":13921.42,"text":"還是雷聲大雨點小?一點結果都沒有?這個國人會很關心可能在分散各個地檢署他們最後處理終結的情況是怎麼樣?刑事警察局也未必清楚嗎?調查局也未必清楚嗎?那但是我覺得總是要有個單位把這個資料都彙整以後跟大家做說明這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":13923.062,"end":13946.961,"text":"我們會清查偵查的情形對偵查不公開的就不公開嘛還沒有偵截就還沒有偵截嘛那偵截了以後最後的結果是怎麼樣是簽截是不起訴還是起訴這牽涉到你們前面花了這麼多時間做這麼辛苦的工作總要有個結果出來嘛"},{"start":13947.898,"end":13964.123,"text":"要不然我們花這麼多錢買這些設備你們也去做檢測了結果最後的結果是什麼大家不知道案件偵辦到哪裡大家都不知道我相信啊我們在面對國家安全威脅這麼嚴肅的課題啊絕對不能虎頭蛇尾啊贊不贊成"},{"start":13970.726,"end":13981.882,"text":"有關後續的一個偵檢起訴或是審判提醒我們會來做一個了解好具體的請教這個是深偽造假還是中共借血這個鑑定出來沒有"},{"start":13985.836,"end":14002.729,"text":"報告委員這個案件是當時是我們新北市調查處受理的那也在新北地檢細數了那我們在鑑識的結果也移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢的處理當中目前還在偵查當中嗎是的所以這是不是造假的"},{"start":14005.882,"end":14032.71,"text":"我們的鑑定結果已經送到地檢了所以要由地檢他們那邊有地檢來加以說明嘛現在還在細數還沒有真解嘛OK好當事人說啊這個是深偽造假調查局說要尊重當事人的意願嘛所以不能公佈結果嘛這我也尊重啊但問題是這已經不是個人的問題啦這是國家安全的問題耶"},{"start":14034.685,"end":14056.692,"text":"這如果是中共借選的話,可以辦到今天都沒有結果嗎?新北地檢還要辦多久?調查局知不知道?發委員我們會和新北地檢,請新北市調查處和新北地檢先做一些溝通協調,然後如果有進步情形再和委員報告。這個案子拖很久了嘛!當事人都站出來控訴啦!"},{"start":14058.479,"end":14080.868,"text":"這中共借選啊知識體大非常嚴重啊絕對不能虎頭蛇尾啊剛剛大家都贊成不能虎頭蛇尾嘛這麼嚴肅的事情絕對要把它查清楚啊是不是真的是中共借選是不是真的是身為偽造這要給社會大眾一個交代啊贊成嗎?負局長你贊成嗎?大家就等著啊"},{"start":14086.021,"end":14113.222,"text":"到底是哪個單位這麼可惡啊那不是只有影像的問題啊還有錄音檔的問題啊這位之前的前立委說啊他連錄音檔都被變造啊他要求的是什麼他要求的是說這是明顯的境外借權的作為期待國安及司法單位迅速處理啊來先請國安單位"},{"start":14116.205,"end":14132.001,"text":"現在處理的進度如何報告委員這個部分我們是交給那個司法機關在調查當中所以跟國安單位沒有關係喔我們只要影響國安跟涉案的我們都會持續的駐收"},{"start":14134.763,"end":14158.08,"text":"你說影響到國安的你們都會怎麼樣?我們會去了解這樣的一個案情提供給相關單位來爭取那目前你們了解的狀況怎麼樣?因為這個案子還在司法調查當中這我們要尊重司法機關的調查所以跟國安單位沒有關係嗎?我剛剛提到只要是會影響國安跟涉案的這個案子你覺得有沒有影響到國安?您覺得有沒有影響到國安?"},{"start":14168.324,"end":14180.771,"text":"對 這個部分我們還是要尊重這個司法警察機關的一個我了解嘛 所以國安單位的立場就是說這個國安單位沒有關係 要尊重檢調嘛 是吧所以呼籲國安單位是呼籲錯的對象 是不是這樣"},{"start":14183.152,"end":14201.01,"text":"包委員,我們針對這個,我們不就這個個案去做評估啦,因為它已經進到司法程序了,但是我們的職者會去掌收這種徵訊或者是影響國家安全跟社會安定的所以從國安單位的立場來講,就是要等司法檢調機關嗎?"},{"start":14202.711,"end":14226.424,"text":"是嗎?因為他已經在在進行當中啊所以這個部分我們還是要尊重事法檢調區嘛沒有關係啦那你就講嘛說這個國安單位在事法檢調有結果出來以前跟我們沒有關係這樣一句話不就講完了我有說錯嗎?我不是說沒有關係那你覺得有關係我們要尊重不是我們要尊重這個事法檢調區當然要尊重事法檢調嘛來刑事警察局委員好這個殷檔刑事警察局有沒有鑑定"},{"start":14233.952,"end":14261.365,"text":"報告委員這不是我們負責鑑定的好來調查局報告委員這個案子是我們調查局做的鑑定鑑定結果出來沒有鑑定結果已經送到臺北地檢了這個案子是臺北地檢上一個案子是新北地檢現在兩個案子都還在細數嗎那可能再請調查局請新北地檢還有臺北地檢的同仁大家都很辛苦多努力一點"},{"start":14264.566,"end":14290.271,"text":"當事人都已經指控了這老共借選欸介入我們的選舉欸多嚴重的事情啊這麼嚴重的事情辦到現在都還辦不出來喔是能力有問題還是決心有問題副局長你覺得呢案子在新北地檢跟台北地檢你們該做的鑑定都做完了嘛希望也利用這個機會喔"},{"start":14292.458,"end":14320.152,"text":"調查局跟臺北地檢講跟新北地檢講當事人指控這麼明確這中共借選影像也是偽造的、陰檔也是偽造的那是不是偽造的只有你們知道嘛但你們也不方便講那全體國人就只好等啊等臺北地檢跟新北地檢給大家一個交代啊否則這麼嚴重的事情可以用霍西尼的喔霍西尼混一混就過去喔"},{"start":14322.021,"end":14347.144,"text":"這牽涉到國家安全的問題耶剛剛大家都同意這很嚴重嘛不能虎頭蛇尾嘛一定要水落石出嘛但看起來今天來做專案報告的這三個單位國安局是要尊重檢調嘛阿調查局你們的結果跟台北地檢想台北地檢不說你們也沒辦法說所以到底是不是偽造變造的"},{"start":14348.649,"end":14354.454,"text":"到底是誰搞的?到目前為止關心這件事情的全體國人都沒有一個答案嗎?是嗎?是、是不是?"},{"start":14361.752,"end":14387.006,"text":"你不要笑嘛 你憋著笑 這很嚴肅的問題我是很嚴肅的態度在請教你啊法務委員我剛也回答了這個案子有細數的遞減那當然要由遞減室最後查處的狀況覺得有對國人說明的必要由他們來出面不應該由調查局 我們也是一個偵查一團一這牽涉到國家安全你認為有沒有跟國人說明的必要"},{"start":14389.465,"end":14412.901,"text":"您覺得有沒有認為跟國人說明的必要我個人認為如果這個案子告一段落當然是有需要對國人做一個說明好 非常好再麻煩調查局分別跟新北地檢還有台北地檢講這事情很重要啊攸關國家安全啊結果是什麼大家都要等他們出來跟國人做說明啊好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":14420.903,"end":14443.374,"text":"葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在林楚瑩 林楚瑩 林楚瑩委員不在已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有王定宇委員、林楚瑩委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關"},{"start":14446.035,"end":14461.801,"text":"機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位已書面兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束 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一、報告及詢問完畢二、委員徐思潔所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報三、委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請數位發展部盡速以書面答覆四、第一案及第二案均令者其進行處理委員預算提案於12月3日星期二中午12時前截止修建散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1811.135,"end":1839.553,"text":"好,我們議事錄等一下再確定現在介紹現場的委員首先介紹李昆哲委員林德福委員洪孟楷委員接下來介紹我們列席人員首先介紹我們交通部陳世凱部長陳部長給部長一個掌聲大家互相打氣一下這個公共運輸局監理師林福山司長"},{"start":1841.653,"end":1866.616,"text":"法治署許宏達處長、陸正吉道安司蔡淑冰副市長、公務局陳威瑞局長、高速公務局趙新華局長、運營運營所林記國所長、觀光署周永輝署長、"},{"start":1869.502,"end":1897.659,"text":"也謝謝法務部、法務部檢察師郭勇發師長。好,郭師長謝謝你。法務部廖江憲參事。廖參事,謝謝。內政部警政署李政曉副署長。消防署預備調查組沈益哲副主任。金融監督管理委員會保險局陳清源副局長。好,陳副局長。"},{"start":1899.797,"end":1924.562,"text":"農業部林業及自然保育森林育樂組李允忠組長教育部秘書處李啟光專門委員經濟部國貿署戴婉容主秘好戴主秘好謝謝國防部政治作戰局政戰綜合處張景泰處長好張處長"},{"start":1929.938,"end":1948.269,"text":"衛福部疾管署急性傳染病組楊靖惠組長。接下來是我們數位部資源管理師江振南科長。以及我們數位產業署黃美靜記政。"},{"start":1958.43,"end":1981.636,"text":"司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳何孝剛法官、何法官謝謝以上是我們的列席人員本次會議進行第一偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式的查緝與防制及如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗的亂象專題報告第二"},{"start":1986.482,"end":2003.738,"text":"道路交通管理處罰條例及發展觀光條例等兩項修正案的審查。好,那我們這個先確認一下議事錄。那我們交通委員對於我們上次會議的議事錄有沒有問題?好,沒有問題。我們議事錄確定。"},{"start":2010.37,"end":2021.074,"text":"接下來我們就針對於我們有兩個法案要修正案的提案說明到場的委員首先請林德甫委員說明"},{"start":2031.525,"end":2049.895,"text":"謝謝主席還有交通部陳部長還有所有列席與會的各位官員還有各位同仁我想本席有提了一個就是本院林德福、蘇清泉等16人有建一部分民眾裝撬牌器、電動窗簾式遮蔽車號的裝置意圖規避公共危險"},{"start":2057.299,"end":2074.998,"text":"而且超速、蛇行、逼車等等違法違規的這些行為或試機從事不法的行為使警方檢舉民眾不能辨認其車牌號增加查緝上的困難那針對"},{"start":2077.16,"end":2087.423,"text":"該行為應要加重來處罰本席提出交通道路管理處罰條例第12條與第13條修正的草案原處罰是新台幣2400元以上4800元以下的罰款"},{"start":2097.225,"end":2120.385,"text":"那本席把他提高為新台幣3600元以上10800元以下的划緩並吊銷其車牌是否有當進行公決謝謝好謝謝林委員那因為今天我們提案的委員比較多所以每位待會會計時兩分鐘接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":2135.066,"end":2163.411,"text":"主席感謝。假車牌嚴不嚴重?非常嚴重,非常氾濫。今年8月,台南漁會前理事長槍擊案,車手掛假車牌,讓全台警方全國查緝。8月,通緝犯開賓室掛假車牌趴趴走,國道警住處逮人扣槍毒假車牌。"},{"start":2166.431,"end":2183.168,"text":"十月三重警當街開9槍逮捕你偽造車牌駕駛副駕一人副部中彈還有11月也就是上禮拜五開槍畫面曝新裝毒蟲掛假車牌拒檢衝撞警連開13槍破窗逮人"},{"start":2190.884,"end":2202.622,"text":"這還只是有上新聞媒體版面的重大刑案沒上的呢?假車牌現在氾濫程度超過你我想像根據交通部的資料"},{"start":2204.275,"end":2220.772,"text":"一百一十年查獲偽造車牌95件逐年增加一百一十一年169件一百一十二年251件到今年十月底已經1012件這個成長幅度比例之高之快之廣"},{"start":2221.988,"end":2245.845,"text":"害人聽聞八月更是高峰到達將近300件所以現在我們是要從源頭管理源頭嚇阻假車牌兩個部分第一網路販售等一下部長我們也會針對這個部分好好的來救教因為到此時此刻我們在查都還是查得到假車牌的販售狀況"},{"start":2247.466,"end":2264.569,"text":"但第二個本席以及我們其他委員都是過去長期關係交通的部分我們也提出相關的修法一定要重刑重罰甚至沒路車輛因此本席的版本雖然當初提案的時候有提到"},{"start":2265.39,"end":2292.504,"text":"相關的部分但我絕對支持更嚴格的版本我絕對支持這次所提出來最嚴厲的版本直接沒路車輛更是我們可以來支持的方向所以本席也會提修正動議我也拜託各位交通委員會的委員今天在詢答完畢之後如果召委能夠處理我們就要直接處理真的沒有時間再等了"},{"start":2293.044,"end":2316.761,"text":"一日我們放縱假車牌在外面趴趴走就是一日治國人一般民眾的安危以及我們警方執法的難度越讓國人危險越讓行車安全危險越讓社會秩序危險這點我們責無旁貸一定要趕快把這個漏洞補起來所以"},{"start":2317.742,"end":2336.697,"text":"我們感謝召委再一次排案我們希望大家共同來趕快把這個漏洞補起來嚇阻假車牌要告訴所有犯罪集團以及有心、僥倖的民眾絕對不要用假車牌來想要做任何違法、亂機的事情謝謝好 謝謝黃委員接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員說明"},{"start":2353.952,"end":2366.788,"text":"謝謝主席底下未必待會有機會質詢要拜託交通部陳部長我們法務部的郭司長內政部警政署的李副署長特別詳細的瞭解假車牌為什麼嚴重"},{"start":2368.749,"end":2391.216,"text":"因為罰則輕啊,大家都這樣講,怎麼輕?如果我是嚴重超速的話,那可以處六千到三萬六,甚至要吊扣六個月。但是呢,如果你假車牌呢,被抓到,才罰三千六到一萬零八百以下,罰太輕。那因為罰輕了,使用量就增加了。什麼人在用假車牌?第一違規祭典。"},{"start":2392.5,"end":2419.707,"text":"他寄臉後他的車子不能用啊他如果是開明慧的車他去拿個小車牌來車主繼續開第二種要來犯罪作案什麼樣的人以前犯罪作案都用髒車啊那髒車還要去偷啊現在呢掛假車牌就可以逃避啊ETC啊那個沿途的照相他就逃過了所以呢要怎麼辦除了加重罰則之外本席的主張還要加兩個第一個末路"},{"start":2420.663,"end":2448.995,"text":"如果我是自己的車因為我車主違規祭典我被吊扣車牌被吊扣我去弄個假車牌我車繼續開被抓到了車子要沒路我的名貴的車被沒路我捨得嗎一個方法第二個方法銷毀很多的犯罪車輛它縱使你把它沒路後它會再拍賣拍賣的這種犯罪車價格很低犯罪集團再買回來用就好了所以只要使用假車牌作案的車子抓到了銷毀"},{"start":2450.316,"end":2479.213,"text":"才能杜絕這個車輛進入犯罪集團當作髒車的循環使用。所以呢本席在這裡我所的提案就是除了加重罰則之外針對不同的行為樣態是屬於類似像違規祭典他用一時方便的你給他沒路如果是用來犯罪作案的你就給他銷毀這樣才能有效的杜絕假車牌的犯案才能保障我們循規蹈矩遵守守法的用路人駕駛人的安全以上"},{"start":2481.516,"end":2484.755,"text":"好 謝謝總委員接下來有請黃健豪委員說明"},{"start":2497.743,"end":2523.885,"text":"好 謝謝主席感謝主席今天安排這個假車牌的相關修法本席在今年9月26號的質詢的時候就建議說假車牌的處罰應該要加重當時也提出道交條例那這個部分在10月25號順利來通過一睹來覆違那包含說過去的確提到金額3600到10800元其實相對非常非常低所以價格我們第一個罰款要提高把我們版本是6000提高到這個"},{"start":2525.106,"end":2550.235,"text":"六千元以上、三萬元以下的罰環那當然更核心的重點是沒入車輛這個部分我們希望一定要能夠確實來執行什麼樣的人會使用假車牌第一個就如剛剛前面幾位委員所說的可能是因為他車牌被扣住所以他必須上路所以他使用假車牌但是我們去想想這問題我們之所以要扣他車牌就是希望他不要上路結果他買了一個便宜的假車牌讓車輛能夠繼續上路那這個罰則本身就是無效的"},{"start":2553.576,"end":2574.936,"text":"所以為了杜絕這樣子的逃避逃避懲罰的規則的方式我們應該去用核心問題來處理就是來摸入車輛那第二個我想假車牌這幾年下來也嚴重造成警方辦案的困難假車牌我們雖然過去強調說有電子長城很多的犯罪行為無所遁形但是這幾年尤其今年以來我在9月的時候就"},{"start":2575.897,"end":2603.878,"text":"預想到今年可能會破千件我那時候想的是年底破千件沒想到現在假車牌的查獲數量就已經破千件這表示說假車牌氾濫數量已經嚴重的影響治安它不僅僅只是交通道路的問題它還是治安的問題所以在假車牌的問題上面除了罰還之外更重要更重要也希望能夠確實執行的就是來沒入車輛讓這些使用假車牌上路這些民眾他不能再使用"},{"start":2604.198,"end":2622.343,"text":"那才能夠完全執行到法律的效果否則的話這些法律形同巨文就像我們提到的就算你罰款再加再重但是很多6000到3萬以下即便是6000到3萬以下很多的犯罪集團他根本不在意這個價格所以最核心的問題我想還是希望能夠確實來執行末路車輛這個罰則以上謝謝好謝謝黃健豪委員接下來有請游浩委員說明"},{"start":2641.441,"end":2660.581,"text":"謝謝 謝謝趙偉那在那個發展觀光條例第72那本期在這裡要特別針對提案說明那在7條之二的話裡面所描述的一些相關單位不管是舊國團、香客大樓或是國軍英雄館或是景光山莊其實過去的話當然有提到說因為疫情的期間啊"},{"start":2661.041,"end":2675.195,"text":"那時候在申請合法的過程中他那時候因為爆發行政效率或是諸多的原因那其實有提到可以的話在這個條例的話是希望能夠針對期間去做展援輔導合法那其實過去在這個"},{"start":2676.656,"end":2694.009,"text":"旅館工會他們所提的這個訴求上其實他們最主要也是希望是在非法民宿或是日租套房這種的類型他們並不是要針對救國團或是日租套房甚至更正救國團或是香客大樓或是國興英雄館等等的一些旅租業者"},{"start":2694.389,"end":2721.182,"text":"那其實在如何能夠在交通部或是觀光署或是相關的單位來輔導這些像是救護團的活動中心或是國際運行館或是教師會館等等那能夠讓他們能夠合法化政府是應該可以的話是加快輔導的動作或是甚至輔導的一個效果而不是因為這個期間上因為疫情而讓這些全部都關門還全部都面臨倒閉或是甚至全部收起來"},{"start":2721.462,"end":2743.102,"text":"因為這些過去都有一個歷史的一個因素在那我相信在政府其實中央部分如果要提出這個發展公安條例在這個期間之內的話我覺得展現有其必要性尤其是在疫情期間相信過去公安署有許多的討論所以我覺得在今天應該是針對這個問題我相信它的延期還配合疫情"},{"start":2743.422,"end":2743.582,"text":"好,謝謝有委員。"},{"start":2769.144,"end":2773.791,"text":"接下來有請許宇珍委員因為他兩岸一併說明三分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2785.821,"end":2796.207,"text":"謝謝主席首先我針對這個觀光發展條例的修法說明因為我們現在這次修的是台灣觀光發展條例的第4條、第53條還有第72條的修法的草案"},{"start":2802.31,"end":2817.326,"text":"那我想現行條例中第53條的規範將侵害國家法益與社會法益的行為置於同一個處罰那這樣的安排不僅會違反法律體系的邏輯也跟法益原則相當有所抵觸那所以我認為如果把兩者混為一談容易讓輕重失衡的處罰成為這個法制體系中的漏洞"},{"start":2825.214,"end":2837.748,"text":"那因為針對觀光發展條例第72條的條文所涉及的這個特定住宿場所的部分因為其實我們當時的這個全球新冠疫情的爆發徹底的打亂這些場所的經營節奏那也打亂他們當時想要針對這個部分來申請合法的一個執照"},{"start":2845.316,"end":2861.016,"text":"那不管是從國際英雄館到青年活動中心然後從我們的農場度假村到這個商客大樓這些特定的場所不但承載著地方經濟的重擔那也是許多基層員工賴以為生的基石那因為"},{"start":2862.219,"end":2874.111,"text":"如果因為疫情而造成這些數千家庭的生計跟地方的經濟的穩定也將會受到威脅所以本期提出修法講言五年的申請期限是希望給予他們時間和機會讓這些單位能夠有一個喘息的空間"},{"start":2878.835,"end":2894.184,"text":"那也能夠讓他們能夠轉型升級那重新站穩腳步讓政府能夠更有充分的提供輔導的一個支持那另外針對道路交通管理處罰條例因為現在假車牌的問題非常的嚴峻尤其2023年透過ETC查獲的假車牌的數量924輛但僅僅2024年的前5個月就已經激增到837輛"},{"start":2905.77,"end":2922.298,"text":"這個數字的背後不但是案件數的攀升更是嚴峻的一個警訊有提醒我們現在的法律對於現行的這類的違規的行為的威脅力幾乎蕩然無存那所以現在的這個道路交通管理處罰條例對於假車牌僅除以3600元到10800元"},{"start":2926.32,"end":2941.073,"text":"拜員的罰款如此輕微的懲處對於違規者來說完全都沒有什麼效力所以假車牌的問題不僅僅還有罰款過低導致它所衍生的是對整個交通秩序的挑戰"},{"start":2941.954,"end":2955.731,"text":"三、三分局的一起的查緝行動中警方就發現了一個這個假車牌車主竟然是透過社群媒體廣告在超商以貨到付款的方式輕鬆就拿到一個假車牌"},{"start":2956.992,"end":2983.194,"text":"四人分局也偵辦了一起住宅棄案中嫌犯利用掛有假車牌的機車作為犯罪工具讓警方追查困難重重所以假車牌的這個犯難成災不僅威脅到人民的安全也助長了各類的犯罪的滋生所以希望能夠透過這樣的修法把假車牌的這個問題能夠徹底的解決為人民建構一個安康富利的社會 謝謝"},{"start":2986.291,"end":2997.996,"text":"好 謝謝徐委員那今天提案委員其他的這個委員都不在現場那我們就接下 進行下一個流程待會我們在"},{"start":2999.569,"end":3028.026,"text":"今天那些單位報告因為還蠻多份報告總共有9份那我們大概會請4個單位來報告除了交通部之外法務部、內政部、這個警政署還有教育部這4個單位做報告那時間的部分我們馬上交通部大概20分鐘共用共用20分鐘你這邊寫22分鐘20分鐘那其他3個單位5分鐘好不好那我們現在就請交通部陳部長報告"},{"start":3039.244,"end":3055.074,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象進行專案報告"},{"start":3058.69,"end":3072.918,"text":"並就審查紅委員孟楷、黃委員健豪、林委員俊憲、黃委員洪威、中委員嘉賓、許委員宇貞、陳委員素月、林委員德福、"},{"start":3073.718,"end":3092.697,"text":"徐委員傅奎、林委員思明等相關委員擬據道路交通安全管理處罰條例共十案修正提案以及副委員坤祺、陳委員雪生、徐委員宇貞、林委員倩祺、"},{"start":3094.537,"end":3121.786,"text":"王委員美惠、吳委員麗華、有委員浩等相關委員擬據《發展觀光條例共期案修正提案》提出本部建議處理意見供貴委員會參考。首先有關社會各界關注偽變造車牌違規課題近期使用偽造號牌案件急劇增加嚴重影響車輛"},{"start":3123.75,"end":3143.747,"text":"號牌的管理,進而危害道路安全以及社會的治安本部已經跟內政部警政署、財政部、數位發展部、經濟部等部會積極從不敢賣、買不到、不敢用三個方向展開各項防制作為"},{"start":3145.475,"end":3170.807,"text":"包括修法、比照危險駕駛提高罰環上限並且當場一致保管車輛使偽變造或者是蒙領牌照以及其他未懸掛有號牌情形者均以最高額來處罰偽造、變造或蒙領牌照者直接沒入車輛"},{"start":3173.3,"end":3182.09,"text":"並罰非汽車所有人之汽車駕駛人與汽車所有人處以相同之處罰。源頭主決境外輸入"},{"start":3183.767,"end":3210.616,"text":"進口貨物查緝通報機制以查獲三件進口偽造號牌由警察機關進一步溯源偵辦將輸入銷售者移送法辦在網路銷售資訊部分公路局已建立網路平台查詢程式並且持續查詢追蹤查獲案件及通知業者馬上下架並且移送警察機關偵辦"},{"start":3212.276,"end":3230.232,"text":"在下架41件已經下架41件跨機關查緝當中今年到現在為止公路局會同內政部警政署共同合作已經查緝查獲使用偽造號牌違規的件數達到1012件並同溯源追緝以刑罰移送859件896人"},{"start":3240.031,"end":3255.336,"text":"令因應近期無照駕駛造成死傷事件本部再邀集相關單位討論研擬加重罰則以及加強輔導病情病重的措施加重包括當場移置保管車輛"},{"start":3256.556,"end":3269.467,"text":"比照危險駕駛提高罰環上限提高吊扣牌照期間提高不能考照的年限等等的罰則之條例修正草案以嚇阻無照駕駛的現象"},{"start":3272.023,"end":3292.279,"text":"續依程序陳報行政院合轉立法院審議加強輔導的部分對於未成年以及高齡無照駕駛者並將邀集縣市政府研議建立一套統一一致的輔導防制追蹤標準機制並且納入年度的道安評比"},{"start":3295.08,"end":3307.17,"text":"本部已經匯商相關機關以及公民團體擬具互為配套周延的這個防制之處罰條例修正草案第21條無照駕駛當場一致保管車輛並且"},{"start":3312.302,"end":3333.798,"text":"繳扣其牌照,繳扣牌照車輛違規上路,可以依第12條再默入,克證陳報行政院合轉大院審議。有關相關委員會為加重偽造號牌及強化無照駕駛管理擬據道路交通管理處罰條例修正提案。"},{"start":3335.438,"end":3357.917,"text":"原建請考量可並後續行政院版本修正之後再中整處理。至於相關委員擬據發展觀光條例修正提案的部分本部為促進觀光永續發展、落實觀光立國的願景交通部以及觀光署在去年9月15日同步改組"},{"start":3358.678,"end":3375.844,"text":"改制之後觀光署及左手研擬發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案並完成草案預告與法案以及性別影響評估檢視作業。近期將報請行政院和請大院審查。"},{"start":3377.438,"end":3398.085,"text":"以上僅先摘要說明本部提出報告重點以及建議處理的意見接下來分別請公路局陳局長、公運司林司長、觀光署周署長向各位委員做詳細的報告再一次感謝各位委員的關心以及指教謝謝"},{"start":3409.122,"end":3418.83,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生接著就偽變造號牌及其它隱匿車牌的方式查緝防制以及如何有效杜絕這個無照駕駛進行相關的一個報告首先在這個偽變造號牌這個偽造號牌的這個違規統計部分111年169件112年251件那今年的增幅比較大到10月份為1012件不過"},{"start":3436.104,"end":3462.828,"text":"在這個行政院九月跟十月有召開跨部會的車際會議之後八月份的這個偽造號牌是259件九月份下降至181件十月份下降至137件那在跨機關的合作斷元以及稽查九月份的這個偽造號牌的這個件數有下降的趨勢那另外在變造號牌這三年平均每年大概是50到70件整體而言變化不大"},{"start":3463.268,"end":3478.524,"text":"那引力號牌的部分在零有號牌未懸掛不依指定位置懸掛平均每年大概就是說這個是2000到這個1000件那有逐年下降的趨勢那塗抹或安裝其他器具不能使辨識號牌的部分每年約2000到3000件"},{"start":3480.146,"end":3495.523,"text":"那在這個偽變造號牌的查緝部分我們有相關的一個措施那第一個部分就是源頭管制要買不到主要是阻絕境外的一個輸入那公路局已經跟財政部、關務署跟經濟部、國貿署那有做相關的一個合作針對貨品輸入"},{"start":3497.165,"end":3519.9,"text":"如果有疑似未照號牌的話就移送警察機關來偵辦。藉經已經有三件那另外在阻絕網路的資訊的部分我們對於這個網購平台的業者也多相關的一個協調那目前包括蝦皮購物、露天市集集、雅虎、拍賣、身家都已經有配合自主檢視下架那另外在社群平台部分包括臉書、LINE、YOUTUBE"},{"start":3521.421,"end":3543.476,"text":"導應也透過蘇衛部協助通報業者下架,迄今也有41件另外公路局對於網路我們也做了相關的一個巡查每天做相關的定期巡查迄今也有查獲512件通知下架而且移送警察機關偵辦另外在跨機關偵查器的一個部分"},{"start":3544.016,"end":3567.068,"text":"民眾向監理裁決機關申訴遭偽變造號牌的資訊以及已經被吊扣、註銷、吊銷這個車牌因為它不能再上路那大部分都是有可能會被偽造號牌所以我們把這些資訊都提供給警察機關納入AI的巡防系統那加強查緝另外在各縣市的停管機關也有這個揮名單那協助我們查核通報"},{"start":3567.848,"end":3581.914,"text":"另外在修法加重處罰部分也就是不敢用跟不敢賣那部裡面已經對於這個道路上關於處罰條例第12條85條之3的草案提出相關的一個修正主要就是罰款額度上限要提高提高到36,000元並增訂"},{"start":3584.295,"end":3589.86,"text":"其他配套措施包括違規入案源頭管理及防範錯誤的舉發另外受害者如有需要換牌的話也免費更換號牌"},{"start":3610.458,"end":3628.137,"text":"第二個部分報告就是這個杜絕無照駕駛相關的措施包括要納入家庭防制的功能那這一個未成年人違規我們也要求這個監護人要共同參加道路交通安全甲型那另外對於地方政府包括地方政府的這個大文匯報"},{"start":3629.238,"end":3636.24,"text":"學校、教育單位、民政、社福單位也一起納入整個無照駕駛的追蹤輔導那對於就是說這個無照未滿18歲可是他即將滿18歲我們也給他輔導那目前有機車駕訓的一個補助那也輔導他們來考照那從這個下半年也輔導了接近快900位完成了取得駕照"},{"start":3650.503,"end":3658.948,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健"},{"start":3676.299,"end":3701.807,"text":"這個部裡面現在也提出要修正處罰條例包括移置保管車輛、比照危險駕駛提高閥門的上限等等那最後整個的偽變造號牌無照駕駛我想交通部這邊會依循行政院的施政目標就精進法制面、查緝面、防偽的供應鏈面以及網路平台的一個部分跟相關部會合作讓這個偽變造號牌不敢賣、買不到、不敢用"},{"start":3704.528,"end":3717.803,"text":"那而且另外在無照駕駛包括相關的措施以及強化偏鄉的供應書的供給及修正法則希望來減少無照駕駛的情形發生提供這個民眾更優質的交通環境以上報告"},{"start":3726.625,"end":3741.519,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生那今天應邀列席貴委員會那就貴委員會審查這個包括黃孟楷委員等相關委員共有實案處罰條例的一個修正草案那提出交通部的處理建議意見供貴委員做參考"},{"start":3743.681,"end":3758.235,"text":"那首先就有關於這個洪孟楷委員等總共提出7案那針對修正條例第12條跟增訂第12條之一那主要是加重使用這個偽造號牌的滑板額度加重累犯的處罰"},{"start":3758.916,"end":3780.546,"text":"那增訂末路車輛處罰的規定那針對這個部分的話交通部的建議處理意見交通部已經邀集內政部、警政署、法務部還有相關指甲室政府、公路局等相關單位已經完成嚴密大陸交通管理處罰條例第12條及第85條之3的修正草案那科證函報請行政院核轉答應審議那針對"},{"start":3783.988,"end":3807.344,"text":"十二條及八十五條之三的修正重點主要包括第一個違反號牌使用規定現行最高罰款一萬零八百元比照危險駕駛修正提高到三萬六千元那另外現行條文這個禁止其行駛這個部分也修正成當場一致保管車輛那另外也明文規定"},{"start":3807.924,"end":3822.698,"text":"只要使用偽變造或蒙領號牌及其他車上只要沒有懸掛有號牌的情形均按最高法36,000元來做處罰有關於只要是偽造、變造、蒙領牌照者"},{"start":3822.998,"end":3846.638,"text":"直接冒入車輛銷毀另外這次也考量這個併罰非汽車所有人的汽車駕駛人與汽車所有人一樣處以相同的一個這個划反那因為這個部分有牽涉到這個疑似保管程序這些相關的部分所以這個考量建議考量可併後續行政院版的一個修正條文中委這個審查但這個尊重委員會審查的結果"},{"start":3848.439,"end":3877.174,"text":"那另外有關這個林委員德福修正12條跟13條這個對於這個安裝其他像捲動車牌這樣子的方式使之不能辯論其號牌的部分把他移到12條的這個部分那這個部分的話其實只要是這個牌照擅自裝置與可控制變動的旋轉架上面那這個基本上已經是屬於現行12條第一項第7款就是林友號牌不依"},{"start":3877.714,"end":3880.577,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人, 委員黃健豪等17人, 委員黃健豪等17人, 委員黃健豪等17人, 委員黃健豪等17人,"},{"start":3900.578,"end":3918.826,"text":"只要是這個相關車商或者是這個車廠擰用試車牌照供報位及牌照吊銷、吊扣其他車輛來使用這個本來就有條例第12條第一項第五款這個牌照皆供他車使用這樣子的一個這個適用那只要是請領試車牌"},{"start":3920.126,"end":3940.798,"text":"沒有依照這個領用試車的目的來做使用的話那現行這個條例在15條第一項第四款已經有這個領用試車牌不再指定的路線跟區域內來試車都有這個相關的一個這個試用規定所以建議應該是這個無需來做徵修訂的一個動作那另外有關於林委員失明"},{"start":3941.258,"end":3970.14,"text":"提案修正處罰條例21條加重無照駕駛處罰的這個部分那這個部分的話交通部已經邀集法務部、交易部、衛務部、內政部、警政署、直轄市政府還有入權及兒少團體完成隱匿道路交通管理處罰條例第21條、第21條之一、第67條及第85條修正草案那交通部會商各機關目前完成的一個草案的修正重點"},{"start":3970.52,"end":3997.701,"text":"包括第一個無照駕駛現行最高罰款兩萬四千元比照危險駕駛修正提告到三萬六千元並當場一致保管車輛五人內違反兩次者均按最高而處罰這個三萬六千元那另外一個部分現行這個就是說吊扣牌照出犯一個月這個兩次三個月三次以上這個半年的部分全部這個加重這個"},{"start":3999.762,"end":4019.189,"text":"出犯1個月提高到3個月那2次由3個月提高到6個月那3次以上由6個月提高到這個1年那並增訂這個一致保管汽車史同時就扣繳期這個牌照那另外有關於只要是這個無照駕駛"},{"start":4020.089,"end":4034.785,"text":"那進行這個致人重傷或死亡是禁考4年那這個部分也修正致人重傷或死亡則終身不得考慮那受傷部分這個4年不能這個考慮那另外有關於這個林委員有提案就是說"},{"start":4037.407,"end":4063.348,"text":"未成年人無照駕駛跟法定監護人並同參加道安講習的部分這個部分現行在條例授權訂定的講習辦法裡面已經有相關的一個規定所以有關於修正條例提高無照駕駛跟滑緩跟延長吊扣牌照這個部分的話盡情可考量並後續行政面板來統整做審查"},{"start":4066.103,"end":4092.673,"text":"針對這個委員相關提案的一個這個部分那交通部非常感佩委員的提案那但是對於這個防制偽造號牌及強化這個無照駕駛管理部分那交通部已經會商相關機關及民間公民團體凝聚互為配套的處罰條例修正草案將這個陳報行政院核轉這個大院來做審議所以這邊敬請就是可併行政院版在中委做一個處理那以上處理意見僅敬請各位委員參考"},{"start":4096.667,"end":4097.149,"text":"何俊仁議員"},{"start":4109.441,"end":4133.924,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進。交通部公路局警就各題案簡單的做一個報告涉及到發展公路條例總共有11個條文我們就併案、併條的方式來跟大家做簡單的報告跟說明有關於第一案、第二案、第三案、第七案"},{"start":4134.704,"end":4158.803,"text":"都涉及到有關於這個我們目前希望能夠這個領有的這個旅館業登記證希望能夠展現的這件事情是因為發展公安條例第24條第三項它已經規定在104年刪除的理由主要是包括國際英雄館、教師會館還有青年活動中心"},{"start":4159.764,"end":4169.69,"text":"因為這些都提供不特定對象住宿休息那麼甚至許多經營的方式都採取委外那麼實際上確實跟旅館業"},{"start":4173.751,"end":4199.44,"text":"沒有什麼差異因此四涉10年的弱力條款需要向地方主管機關申請旅館業的登記等項目使得繼續營業這個部分建議維持現行條文那麼有關於林委員、倩儀等21人提案修正第36條跟第60條的修正部分因為四涉"},{"start":4201,"end":4203.781,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ"},{"start":4221.547,"end":4245.025,"text":"處罰條文必須要尊重監察院委員視察的時候提醒水域管理機制的重要所以這個部分呢建請全條都維持現行條文那麼有關於徐委員、宇甄等20人這個還有王委員、美惠等16人提案第53條的修正的部分"},{"start":4246.854,"end":4268.606,"text":"我們是建議因為整個發展觀光條例的推動那麼也包括了各對觀光產業的發展那麼我們確實需要能夠確保消費者旅客的這個權益那因此我們建議還是維持現行的條文那麼"},{"start":4269.813,"end":4285.018,"text":"接著請大家再參考一下書面資料第五頁也就是王委員每會16人還有吳委員、立法等20人提案修正的第55條之一修正的部分因為"},{"start":4286.394,"end":4308.239,"text":"他涉及到裁罰的標準那麼我們希望能夠在體力上能夠一致那原則上是希望能夠把下限能夠做一些統一那至於有些違條的部分就是按旅宿業規模一截為了一體適用所有的這個違規項目所以我們希望能夠給予一些適度的裁量"},{"start":4308.999,"end":4325.179,"text":"那麼接著是針對55條之3這個修正的部分因為有關於日租套房已經有按照這個相關的這些租賃事業在做經營管理所以涉及的部分我們希望能夠"},{"start":4325.88,"end":4334.585,"text":"建議不予爭定。最後其他有關涉及到第54條、55條、55條之一、57條原則上競表同意。那麼以上進行各位委員參採、支持與指教。謝謝。好,謝謝交通部的報告。接下來有請我們法務部檢察師郭勇發司長來做報告。"},{"start":4358.124,"end":4380.322,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生、大家早。今天奉邀列席貴委員會就偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象代表本部列席報告並被質詢。除書面報告之外,口頭檢要報告如下。"},{"start":4381.465,"end":4409.281,"text":"首先是使用偽造變造車牌的現行刑事處罰規定依照目前的司法實務見解汽車牌照系公路監理機關所發給依道路交通安全規則第8條規定屬於行車之許可憑證屬於刑法第212條所列的特許證若加以偽變造應適用刑法第212條之罪論處該罪的刑度為一年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":4409.841,"end":4428.724,"text":"另外,如果藉由偽變造車牌或其它不正方法詐得國道高速公路通行利益之行為可能另外涉犯刑法第339條之一非法由收費設備詐欺得利罪該罪的刑度也是一年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":4429.585,"end":4455.657,"text":"再來本部已經嚴厲修正刑法偽造文書罪章將積極推動刑法修法以符合罪行相當原則本部在113年11月12日刑法修正研修小組第308次會議以進行提案討論並納入本部修正刑法偽造文書罪章的立法政策"},{"start":4456.297,"end":4477.214,"text":"在修正的方向本部研擬修正刪除刑法第212條的偽變造特種文書罪依照各該文書的本質回歸適用偽變造的公文書或書文書的規定加以阻斷簡單地講如果是偽造牌照"},{"start":4478.574,"end":4505.865,"text":"並加以行使的話以目前的刑度是最高可以處到7年有期徒刑而修正的理由刑法第212條課題的文書性質上仍然是屬於公文書或屬於私文書所以如果在偽變造的情形仍然要依照偽造變造公文書的方式來處斷並在其法定刑度內酌情處良"},{"start":4508.51,"end":4525.163,"text":"第二個理由因為特種文書罪的重要性並不亞於一般的公私文書如果有偽變造的行為不僅其情節沒有較輕微而且侵害公共信用往往更較以一般公私文書來得嚴重"},{"start":4526.744,"end":4545.852,"text":"第三個立法的修法的理由是刑事特別法已分別對偽變造護照及國民身份證的行為設有較高的刑責處罰而現行對汽車車牌的偽變造行為則上罰有刑事特別法的加重處罰規定"},{"start":4547.412,"end":4555.58,"text":"結於本部將持續督導所屬各檢察機關在偵辦這類案子的時候能夠精進偵查作為積極的查處。"},{"start":4558.615,"end":4580.413,"text":"而有關於修法部分本部以原理刪除刑法第212條的偽變造特種文書罪使特種文書依其性質回歸到偽造、變造公文書或私文書的罪者來加以論處以上報告敬請各位主席、主席及各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝法務部的報告"},{"start":4585.151,"end":4595.068,"text":"接下來這樣我最後請一位就是我們內政部警政署啦林副署長來做報告那其他六個部會的報告請大家參與書面"},{"start":4601.198,"end":4626.169,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天奉邀至貴委員會就《偽變造車牌或隱匿車牌之查緝及防制及如何有效杜絕無照駕駛之亂象》列行報告以下僅就本署相關查緝及防制作為提出說明第一,我們建議修正道路交通管理處罰條例加重處罰"},{"start":4627.994,"end":4655.206,"text":"為防制汽車嫌掛偽變造車牌衍生治安及交通的問題警政署在今年9月3號邀請交通部及交通部公路局及各警察機關召開延伸偽變造車牌防制工作會議建議修正《道交條例》第12條大家對末日偽造車牌車輛加重處罰、後製共識"},{"start":4657.455,"end":4684.183,"text":"本署乃於9月9日韓警交通部建議修法令建議無照駕駛屬於危害道路交通安全行為其所造成的危害不亞於9號駕車我們亦原體修正建議提高罰則第二大部分我們目前是跨機關合作來杜絕未照號牌"},{"start":4685.307,"end":4709.829,"text":"交通部已洽請經濟部國際貿易署徵修限制車牌輸入規定以阻絕偽變造車牌與境外。有學者建議提出車牌防偽功能之建議,由交通部於11月15日召集相關機關研商提升車牌防偽辨識功能,希望能全面杜絕偽變造車輛以維護民眾的權益。"},{"start":4714.09,"end":4735.908,"text":"另外,財政部官務署配合加強進口貨物查驗,如有發現疑似偽造車牌後品時,通知監理機關確認偽造車牌,再通知警察機關接續遵辦事宜。第三,我們加強查緝起地無照駕駛。"},{"start":4737.335,"end":4754.742,"text":"本署在6月21日通令全國各警察機關加強取締無照駕駛將取締無照駕駛列入常態性的重點工作並加強校園宣導、結合教育家庭及社政單位防制未成年無照駕駛"},{"start":4756.252,"end":4779.89,"text":"學生無照駕駛通報教育局、內管輔導為成年無照駕駛舉發家長並一致保管車輛維護交通安全秩序。第四、我們利用科技設備強化查緝能量不足將持續推動全國員警運用智慧警勤輔助系統警用行動電腦、辨識可疑車輛強化偽變造車輛之查緝量能。"},{"start":4786.584,"end":4811.388,"text":"目前的執行成效偽變造車牌的件數分屬在7月29號特別在通令全國各警察機關加強查緝使用偽變造車牌的啟蒂目前舉發道交條例第12條第1項第3款使用偽變造車牌的件數在112人有281件"},{"start":4815.717,"end":4830.197,"text":"今年一到十二份有一千零五十六件,跟去年相比增加了百分之三百九十六。另外查後刑法第二十一、二一二條"},{"start":4831.584,"end":4859.856,"text":"及216條販賣或使用偽變造車牌的件數 112年一共130件139人今年1月到10月已經查後774件802人跟112年相比已增加了644件可以說我們警察機關已經有在加強查緝使用偽變造車牌的這個"},{"start":4861.803,"end":4887.859,"text":"的這個工作另外我們對於取締無照駕駛的件數在今年1到10月舉發的違反道交條例第21條及21之一無照駕駛共102,228件目前我們更通令全國各警察機關在持續加強取締無照駕駛的違規行為"},{"start":4890.578,"end":4914.178,"text":"以上兩項交通違規的太陽都是警方目前的工作重點我們會持續加強來取締執行以上報告恭請各位委員指示好 謝謝這個警政署的報告說明今天各機關所送的書面資料會列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":4916.172,"end":4934.164,"text":"本日議程中道路交通管理條例第10案委員林思明等18人提案因為各黨團沒有提出不附議同意書暫不列入本日討論事項的議程我們現在提案說明委員剛剛我們林建祺委員到現場時間兩分鐘"},{"start":4944.721,"end":4965.9,"text":"主席那各位出席的夥伴大家好我這邊針對這個《發展觀光條例》第36條跟第60條的條文的修正我這邊說明一下我先用一個反例來討論一下這件事情也就是我們在這個條文裡面將危險海域明確定定禁止進入但是我們從來沒有見過遊客"},{"start":4968.542,"end":4991.61,"text":"我們是否從來沒有見過遊客看到這個就不會進入這是一個很大的問題違規的行為依然還存在很多人明知不可為而為那所以這樣一個禁止常常都變成一個無效的告示牌我提出這個修正最主要是一個讓這樣一個管理用教育意義來處理就更為有效度因為"},{"start":4992.95,"end":5000.43,"text":"可能很多人會想說那我們如果禁止那沒有禁止出了事你要負責嗎但是重點是請問你禁止了沒有出事嗎"},{"start":5001.397,"end":5028.79,"text":"那禁止對於發展觀光有什麼效度那如果我們用警示的話我們可以把海邊的管理從命令走向引導然後從禁止來走向提醒那因為你的那個命令禁止讓許多人還怨憂欲試尤其是各位可能在水上經常不是經驗太多但是我是經常在水上活動的那這樣子一個禁止反倒讓許多人懷疑而且還更"},{"start":5029.81,"end":5045.226,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 更生氣說到底有什麼樣子的原因我們必須被禁止所以我們這邊我這個提案最主要是更積極的一個管理許多人擔心這個修法對危險度的一個有沒有可能會造成這樣子的關係"},{"start":5047.448,"end":5071.94,"text":"接下來那權責誰處理可是呢我們用禁止的一個狀態是不是我們只是做到我告訴你囉但是有什麼事情那到時候中央退給地方地方又退給中央我想這個部分不是一個基本來解決問題的一個態度所以違規行為的行為存在那如何讓這樣子一個管理的方式更有效度所以"},{"start":5073.06,"end":5092.236,"text":"我並不是要降低法律的作用而是要提升法律的效度所以我們如果將禁止改為警示並適度的調整罰金不會因為所謂的罰金而導致更無謂的一個管理這個是我這一次這個修法最主要的一個目的好不好就以上的這個補充感謝大家"},{"start":5094.502,"end":5115.289,"text":"好 謝謝林委員的說明那我們現在就進行合併的詢答先宣告以下事項第一 詢答時間初期委員5加2分鐘 列舉委員4加1分鐘第二 委員發言登記於10點30分截止本委員會除外第三 各委員如有臨時提案請於10點"},{"start":5117.29,"end":5132.367,"text":"現在已經10點了10點30分之前提出以便議事人員會診第四暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第五中午原則上不休息現在就請登記第一位林國成委員發言"},{"start":5141.601,"end":5154.932,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請交通部陳部長陳部長還有我們那個公路局陳局長陳局長還有我們林狐山林司長林司長"},{"start":5163.134,"end":5189.269,"text":"好 部長早我想今天除了審查之外我們本會之委員也提了滿多針對這些加重末日等等這些加重華者加重華者等等這些提案那我想在這裡我特別要提醒部長"},{"start":5190.336,"end":5209.138,"text":"也就是從這個問題在91年立法院就每一個會議交通委員會每一次都在談但是從91年到現在12年了問題都還沒有解決不但沒有解決問題更嚴重"},{"start":5211.038,"end":5230.23,"text":"那這個問題出在哪裡呢是我們交通部的問題或者我們法規的問題或者警察執行不力的問題我說實在的我為什麼只請商會上來部長你要負政治責任"},{"start":5231.144,"end":5258.203,"text":"那執行單位那個陳局長那規劃單位就是林司長所以我說實在所有問題就在我們交通部嘛要怎麼樣去做所以啊因為時間的關係第一個假車牌的問題的患難部長你應該很了解第二我就感覺到很奇怪啊從91年到現在"},{"start":5259.793,"end":5286.152,"text":"已經經過日新夜異現在過去是隨隨便便91年就可以偽造現在不是部長現在在網路平台就可以去買到我也感覺到很奇怪難道你們都不知道嗎所以剛才各單位都已經講得很清楚每一年增加每一年增加雖然這個牌子"},{"start":5287.336,"end":5296.763,"text":"車牌看起來似乎不重要但是不要忘了所有任何的刑事案件通通駕車牌來"},{"start":5298.669,"end":5327.488,"text":"所以這還有交通安全這是很重要的所以作案也都是假車牌所以這個問題不要把它當成是一個小事我就感覺到很奇怪91年到現在從來都沒有改從來每一次提案你們都要修可是修到最後沒有辦法對症下藥這是我們交通部政策這個部分部長"},{"start":5328.388,"end":5349.599,"text":"你認為本席提出這些給你的建言你認為從91年到現在12年都沒有辦法解決能不能在陳部長你的任內把他有一個有效嚇阻或者新的方法去做這些黃假車牌這個問題部長你的看法"},{"start":5352.7,"end":5371.38,"text":"報告委員這個假車牌確實在這兩年變得特別嚴重那您剛剛所說的從91年開始就有這樣的問題那不過這兩年確實嚴重度也增加了那這個不只是影響到道路交通安全的問題還影響到治安的問題那我們也非常的重視所以當然我們現在"},{"start":5372.341,"end":5392.219,"text":"在今年我們有跨部會、跨單位的這個查緝的作業也在做那也面對新的這個販賣的模式我們也在做因應包含公路局其實有做每一天有這個巡查機器人在網路上去巡查包含委員所提供的這個網路上有在賣車牌的我們每天都在巡查只要查到"},{"start":5392.899,"end":5411.516,"text":"馬上就會交給執法單位馬上就移送請執法單位協助那是一方面那二方面其實今天我們在這邊報告的過程當中也提出了相當多的我們確實把罰則提到很高包含汽車的沒入的部分我們也都提出來了包含整個最高罰則可以到3萬6的部分我們會積極來做"},{"start":5413.297,"end":5439.252,"text":"部長我們說實在的我們我們宴會裡面的同仁都已經提了這些就代表什麼就代表是真的有必要針對法的基礎上去做改變然後我們的黃換部分要去做創新所以我很簡單啊部長因為時間的關係今天看起來案子也蠻多的我也不要利用時間我給你建議啦"},{"start":5440.433,"end":5458.498,"text":"有時候你們在編列預算到國外去考察我不曉得你們在考察什麼東西這才是真正要考察人家的做法借鏡國外即刻提升防衛你去看看人家先進國家我跟你講"},{"start":5459.861,"end":5484.581,"text":"你雖然牌照看起來是一樣但是我警政單位只要一測就知道因為報私撤銷那個車牌我跟你講我一照就很清楚耶人家這些國外特殊的特殊的字體這很重要第二無線攝影頻道的技術"},{"start":5486.26,"end":5497.598,"text":"第三、黃維晶片這些人家都在做阿那為什麼我們不做阿一直在講91年講到現在12年都沒有解決之道"},{"start":5498.817,"end":5516.293,"text":"每一年就是在講這個假車牌的問題所以我說實在的我們當民意代表的人看到這樣我們以重心長不是說我們針對問題只有指責但是沒有建議那我們建議你們又不做"},{"start":5518.996,"end":5532.167,"text":"這個假車牌所有問題你可以去看一看重大犯案通通都是假車牌而引起所以這些部長我真的非常以重心長的建議"},{"start":5533.448,"end":5548.476,"text":"借重國外的技術人家是馬上可以看得出來的我警察機關只要一射我就知道你這個是假車牌人家都可以做為什麼我們不能做不要忘了我們的技術我們各方面"},{"start":5549.497,"end":5577.011,"text":"都不亞於任何一個國家欸那為什麼我們都不做?就是因為我們不作為啦!保證!過去我對你做痛點的啦!委員長的建議非常的具體我也請公路局這邊大家研議一下怎麼樣讓他在防偽的這方面怎麼樣做提升這個部分確實是有需要的我們會盡量開除最後我要必須要去提醒部長啦吼無照駕駛的部分不是只有提高就可以解決"},{"start":5577.871,"end":5605.387,"text":"這些要社會教育社會教育我們輔導的機制也是必用對 所以這些東西真的我還是希望希望部長在這個部分像黃偉這些技術不是不能做無照駕駛平船這個是非常嚴重你看看發生命案的都是無照駕駛有照駕駛最起碼的話他有交通交通的這些規則的基本觀念"},{"start":5606.067,"end":5622.755,"text":"但是無照駕駛他不曉得啊這些東西真的要廣為宣傳然後然後這個部分加重其刑之外我說實在很多問題只要有刑責我告訴你現在喝酒酒駕"},{"start":5623.775,"end":5649.953,"text":"造勢那不是很重的刑罰處罰嗎這些當然是有嚇阻作用雖然民主國家但是不能解決在這個部分真的一定要去做所以我最後還是要建議國外偽造的這些方法要盡快刻不容緩趕快研究去吸收不然我告訴你你們交通部所有的國外倉房我跟你講今年審議算我絕對把你們刪掉"},{"start":5654.369,"end":5678.909,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林國成委員接下來有請林沛翔委員發言好 謝謝主席有請交通部陳部長陳部長跟我們公路總、公路局的陳局長跟高工局的趙局長高工局趙局長"},{"start":5684.485,"end":5712.924,"text":"部長、兩位局長我記得上次本席在質詢的時候因為基隆市有常態性塞車基隆市他們現在跟台北交接的國道1號上面有常態性塞車那時候交通部部長也跟盜運說要給本席說有關這個臨時入權撥用的這個study那現在我據我剛剛才看三分鐘之前現在基隆跟台北還在塞車那我想請問有關這個臨時如果遇到臨時入權"},{"start":5714.365,"end":5731.991,"text":"需要解決交通問題請問這個研究報告做好了沒有?這個我上次有跟委員報告我們會來著手進行那這個部分是不是請局長來跟您回答跟委員報告因為現在的法令規定本來就有就是說塞子因為一般的客運他雖然有他行駛的路線"},{"start":5732.651,"end":5761.621,"text":"不過就是說基本上在用塞或是事故然後這一條路線他已經阻塞了不能就是行駛的他當然可以就是說行駛其他的替代路線那這個部分的話法令有規定那我們也請客運業者就是提出就是說他們如果說在比如說這個高速公路有相關的一個用塞的話他比如說從國一改走國三或者是其他的一個路線這部分沒有問題好 那我希望未來這個SOP這個能夠盡快能夠越來越及時只要業者提出"},{"start":5761.681,"end":5762.161,"text":"歐盟總人口多少人?"},{"start":5792.597,"end":5795.202,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":5805.423,"end":5831.291,"text":"東南亞的話我們是算新南向是18國那如果南亞是6國那這個部分只有講東南亞的話呢大概就是目前的差不多6億6億左右因為印度的話就已經佔了印度不算對印度跟東南亞是分開的因為我們的觀光政策來講現在是補助東南亞的旅客來台一個人5000塊應該超過6億了對超過6億"},{"start":5834.292,"end":5854.742,"text":"那我們現在看到的就是說這就是本席很不能理解的地方歐盟4.5億那東南亞6億加起來差不多10.5億將近11億的人口那我們中間還要補助他們的這些來台的來台旅遊的費用那我們直接看到據我所知最新的報告差不多中國大陸將近14億人口對吧"},{"start":5855.731,"end":5872.975,"text":"那我們很明顯的就是說我有點不太理解以商業的角度來看或發展產業的角度來看我們很直接的去掠過我們旁邊的14億人口的市場然後我們一天到晚想去拉至少要跟我們差不多16個小時以上的飛機或者是我們還要補貼人家5000塊的顧客來去衝我們現在的人數"},{"start":5878.897,"end":5896.326,"text":"我如果看了沒有說因為這份報告這份都是目前我看到的報告我們現在報告已經跟我講說我們現在只要有從台灣到大陸的飛機載客率已經恢復到如同2019年的時候的將近八成的載客率是不是真的"},{"start":5897.187,"end":5899.59,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":5912.97,"end":5938.607,"text":"但是我們目前的航班跟航點其實比過去是減少滿多這就是我等一下要提的東西不好意思部長既然您都講了因為我們現在在我現在看到的數字就是說我們現在差不多希望說我們今年能夠衝到1000萬人次不過目前來講我們差不多在750萬左右老實講現在已經是11月28號我們有很多很多的因素導致說我們現在這個回復到這個我記得沒有錯是2019年我們的人數是1184萬人次是史上最高"},{"start":5943.53,"end":5961.84,"text":"可是如果說剛好也是輪受查了一下就是我們最高峰的時候光大陸的人次來到台灣就差不多418萬那如果跟現在750萬加起來剛好回到2019年那個時候當然2019年的時候那個大陸的旅客也沒有這麼多但是很明顯的就是說我們現在"},{"start":5963.479,"end":5988.111,"text":"因為我們的專攻人數的不夠多所以我們現在實質上我們觀光產業的產值逆差高達7300億當然我們可以講說因為天災、因為颱風我們可以講很多理由但是我想請問署長我們是不是還要去爭取大陸旅遊客這塊市場跟委員報告一下2019年的時候入客是271"},{"start":5989.972,"end":6005.156,"text":"那您剛剛那個數字是4年2015年418對但是我們在算的時候是這樣子就是我們歡迎各國來部長那個署長我只是想很單純說我們還不要爭取大陸大陸旅遊市場我們也歡迎啊也歡迎啊沒有說不歡迎啊"},{"start":6005.376,"end":6021.345,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話我本席常常聽過一句話啦其實本席像不是預設立場的人我想部長可能很能夠理解那一句話叫戰爭是政治的延續而政治是為了經濟而服務到目前為止臺灣都希望能夠發展成為所謂的觀光大國"},{"start":6023.766,"end":6051.048,"text":"因為觀光財基本上是成本目前我們知道除了不計垃圾跟社會成本之外觀光財應該是目前來講成本最少的財源所以說當我們的觀光業者我們要發展觀光大國但是我們很刻意的去忽略到全世界將近快五分之一的人口去忽略到這麼大一塊市場的時候那這樣其實對我們的觀光業者其實也難怪他們會叫苦連天啦"},{"start":6051.608,"end":6066.636,"text":"所以這邊我會在這邊本席會建請我們的會強烈建議建請我們的觀光署甚至交通部來跟路委會來談一下有沒有可能只要恢復到在在這個疫情之前的直航點就好了"},{"start":6067.176,"end":6084.567,"text":"像幾個點我就直接講像是說濟南、長沙、西安、合肥、南昌、天津、溫州等等這些都是在疫情前我們有的執行點這不是說我們現在去設新的航點而是疫情前我們就有執行點是不是能夠把它恢復我想部長跟署長認為呢"},{"start":6086.283,"end":6112.419,"text":"是 這個部分我們的立場還是很希望能夠多一些觀光客來臺灣包含中國的觀光客我們也都很歡迎那不過飛航的部分其實有一些是商業上面的機制就是說它的需求有沒有到如果有到的時候業者就會提出申請那提出申請就看國安單位跟那個陸委會那邊他們的判斷那這個部分我們當然是希望說多一些人可以過來我們是非常歡迎的"},{"start":6112.84,"end":6114.205,"text":"所以從交通部的觀點來講是樂觀其成對吧"},{"start":6117.372,"end":6144.997,"text":"好那希望說我今天因為質詢都有都有在錄影都有在各方面都回答那我是認為是說與其一天到晚觀光業者不停的向我們請命說我們需要活下去我們需要活下去不如就是說明明那邊有一塊很大的市場那我們不去談然後我們一天到晚去找這東南亞的客人我們要付他200塊美金我覺得這個思維邏輯上好像哪裡不太對勁委員有一個釐清一下就是我們全球啊每個國家都有些優惠措施"},{"start":6146.017,"end":6147.398,"text":"謝謝林沛江委員接下來有請李崑澤委員發言"},{"start":6180.468,"end":6189.384,"text":"好 謝謝召委請一下陳部長還有林副山市長、陳文睿局長、趙新華局長還有周署長來 周署長"},{"start":6193.766,"end":6216.78,"text":"好,部長我看我們偽造車牌它的逐年增加確實都是造成交通危害那當然數次會說話我們看到高工局統計疑似偽造車牌的車輛數以及通報的件數或者是因為偽造車牌被刑罰移送的件數跟人數或者是因為偽造車牌被盜交"},{"start":6219.421,"end":6226.247,"text":"處理條例舉發的件數都以驚人的速度在增加那數字都整理在上面那"},{"start":6227.318,"end":6256.638,"text":"在過去我也要求說我們針對防衛的技術要來進行強化以及進行加強防衛功能的可辨識性來減少相關的查緝的速度跟時間不過我們今天要更進一步具體的來做防制這種偽造車牌我三個這樣簡單的建議第一個部長我們還是要進行跨部會的合作"},{"start":6257.658,"end":6265.004,"text":"警政署、交通部警政署以及財政部的官務署、數位部等等。那我們"},{"start":6266.846,"end":6295.526,"text":"主委部要協助的是什麼協助這些網路的購買資訊的下降另外也加強巡查那對於財政部的關路署就是從曝光開始就要阻斷這些偽造車牌的流入那源頭的阻斷方面我們必須要強化車牌的環圍功能要持續精進相關的環圍的技術另外阻斷"},{"start":6296.907,"end":6317.844,"text":"進外的邊境管制就是必須要增列專屬的進口貨品的分類號列加強進口貨品的查緝通報來溯源查緝另外阻斷網路資訊這是一個很重要的一個關鍵就是定期巡查網路的銷售的資訊"},{"start":6319.105,"end":6348.303,"text":"下架包含網購的平台、社群的平台相關的車牌產品來部長你先簡單說明一下是報告委員您剛剛所說的每一項我們現在正在進行努力當中那等一下針對這個偽造的這個車牌防偽的部分我等一下請局長來回答那阻絕在境外的部分我們跟財政部有在合作那網路的部分我們也跟速發部也都有在合作所以我們現在每一天都有在巡查網路上只要巡查到我們就會拜託警政署"},{"start":6349.063,"end":6364.87,"text":"協助那也會拜託這個速發部協助先讓他下架那下架的速度是請速發部那邊來協助那您剛剛所提到這個防偽的部分我是不是請局長先回答一下防偽的功能之前我們都有具體的建議時間的關係那我們再跟局長進行相關的討論那最主要的我們也必須要加強查緝強化車牌的防偽機制、辨識度"},{"start":6374.974,"end":6376.895,"text":"二、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長"},{"start":6398.883,"end":6426.384,"text":"避免這種錯誤的舉發我們要保護受害者我們要來針對受害者免除他更換車牌的這一些製造費及行政費而且針對受害者進行重新的規則那對偽造車牌的犯罪人我們必須進行這樣的一個救責所以就他的一個責任這都是必須重要的一個工作來簡短的讓你來做說明"},{"start":6426.724,"end":6451.814,"text":"保護受害者的部分我們目前也有在進行就是說免費換牌這是一個部分那另外一個部分當我們註記到確定他的號碼是被偽造的時候他的那個罰單罰則就不會隨便去處理我們一定會辨識過之後才會去處理好那接下來我要講的是觀光的議題部長我們達成旅客的人數今年的國際旅客人數本來是從一千萬"},{"start":6452.774,"end":6454.295,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":6476.151,"end":6498.721,"text":"跟委員報告這個這個標準應該是可以突破這個標準可以突破這個不叫突破750萬還叫突破你今天是突破1200萬我要為你鼓掌說這是突破我們跟2019年所比較起來確實是有落差這個部分一定要再努力那我們到了上個禮拜的總人數"},{"start":6501.443,"end":6527.005,"text":"國際旅客來的總人數已經超過去年一整年所以今年是比去年更加成長不過這個數字跟2019年比起來世界各國都是跟疫情之前來做比較部長你不能用2024再比2023耶當然當然我要說的是說比去年進步但我們跟2019年比起來這個社會大眾是無法接受這樣的一個對比我們成長的速度還是比日台差距很大部長我們來做一個對比啊國際旅客的人次恢復的狀況啊"},{"start":6529.164,"end":6549.465,"text":"我們跟其他國家來比是遙遙的這個落後這個沒有錯 這個確實是落後我們要再加起來2024年1月到8月台灣旅客的人次對比2019的這個同期日本旅客來台灣的減少了40%韓國旅客來台灣減少了14%那韓國旅遊局他們的旅遊發展局有做統計"},{"start":6550.871,"end":6565.238,"text":"今年8月對比2019年同期旅客總人次減少2%而已日本返航的旅客平均都已經恢復到93%以上那日本觀光廳也有做統計今年1到9月對比2019年他們同期增長了10%"},{"start":6571.041,"end":6595.358,"text":"而且韓國訪日的旅客增加了31%人家做這樣的成績那個才有臉去說這是突破了另外我們來看聯合國的世界旅遊組織的報告2024年1月到7月國際旅客大概是7.9億人次已經達到疫情之前的水準96%"},{"start":6597.543,"end":6602.665,"text":"日本出入境統計2024年18月日本出國人次對比2019年同期是減少了4%那臺灣的整體國際旅客整體減少了38%保證這很嚴重的數字另外日本的旅客來臺灣的減少了40%"},{"start":6622.031,"end":6632.177,"text":"這都是非常嚴重啦!UN Twitter 的統計裡面其實它有很多跨國界的所以短途旅遊的部分其實是有增加那總數來講部長我們成績不好啦我們國內的旅遊品質不佳啦我們的這樣的一個價格對比國際啊"},{"start":6642.003,"end":6659.433,"text":"沒有顯著的競爭力那我們來看觀光署的統計一至八月我們出國的人次達到1138萬人次國家風景區的旅客人次減少了26%全國觀光旅館的租用率大概全國平均大概是59%而已"},{"start":6661.155,"end":6688.651,"text":"那我們看到臺灣到韓國的機票這麼便宜對比我們自己國內的旅遊品質以及我們的價格我們是毫無競爭力我們看來討論這個原因就是第一個品質不佳第二個價格對比沒有競爭力而且沒有有效的去推動我們觀光產業的轉型這很可惜這四年來一再的提醒我們"},{"start":6690.202,"end":6717.584,"text":"交通部、觀光局跟觀光署的這樣的一個過程裡面我們不能只是補助業者補助業者只是幫助業者還有從業人員度過難關而已你真正重要的是推動觀光的轉型你要打造特色文化區域的旅遊品牌而且要做交通的整合跟改善服務另外你也必須做到資訊多元的友善服務"},{"start":6718.561,"end":6728.265,"text":"我看在多年前我就有建議2020年3月我就有建議說我們必須要建立多語言的制定行程規劃的系統"},{"start":6730.441,"end":6749.249,"text":"那當時韓國的旅遊局跟旅遊公社的網站也沒有類似的功能那2020年3月我跟交通部提質詢的時候提當時韓國也沒有但是現在2023年韓國旅遊局他們旅遊發展局都已經有這樣的網站了"},{"start":6750.543,"end":6770.637,"text":"那我們官方轉型這4年都沒有具體的成績部長我們疫情期間日本他們推動這種數位的轉型資訊的整合人才的培訓還有相關的交通的整合跟品質的改善我們卻連一個網站都做不出來"},{"start":6772.405,"end":6790.924,"text":"報告委員這個資訊上面台灣沒有道理做得比其他國家更慢沒錯所以這個部分確實應該要加強我們還是數位科技大國如果韓國做得到台灣也一定做得到我所知道現在觀光署有做一部分但不夠好不夠好、不夠完善、不夠完整這個部分一定要加強因為時間的關係我也不好意思再拖太久時間我最後簡單的"},{"start":6792.225,"end":6819.538,"text":"五大面向的簡單的建議第一個要強化培訓地方自治團體的參與署長要多跟地方來對話溝通然後建立可持續性的觀光模式不是只靠補助要建立區域的旅遊品牌加強套裝旅遊的路線另外要強化人才的培訓數位整合這個是很重要交通的銜接跟資訊的透明化"},{"start":6821.619,"end":6838.73,"text":"這個都必須要趕快連一個網站都弄不出來我們要做什麼國際旅客的這樣的一個推動旅遊呢?謝謝委員這個我們都持續在做然後我們有一個博覽會也是把AI跟旅行業把它做一些結合我們希望能夠把產業能夠提升成績趕快拿出來了好不好?"},{"start":6841.004,"end":6857.055,"text":"好 謝謝李昆哲委員先做以下宣告因為今天有臨時提案我們待會在徐富奎委員發言完畢之後處理臨題好 接下來請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":6867.496,"end":6876.821,"text":"謝主席,有請我們陳部長還有公路局陳局長陳局長還有林福山市長,謝謝好,市長"},{"start":6883.055,"end":6911.334,"text":"部長、局長、市長早安我想今年偽造的車牌的案件確實明顯增加截至今年10月就高達1012件比去年的251件高出數倍甚至在8月份就高達200多件這很恐怖我想這個偽造車牌的不是只有單單的一個管理的問題更是造成社會的治安跟所謂的一個交通的安全的問題部長認同嗎?"},{"start":6913.275,"end":6932.244,"text":"是我非常認同這個道路安全是一方面那另外我們看到很多的案件都是跟治安相關的所以這也造成了治安方面的漏洞所以我們現在很積極在努力包含這個源頭的管制包含跨機關的查緝那包含我們現在正在著手要修法加重罰則"},{"start":6933.325,"end":6952.873,"text":"好,部長我想我們現在也是積極在做這樣的一個危機處理啦我們把所謂的一個道路交通管理處法條例的一個罰金提高到三萬六千元然後並採取沒入跟銷毀一個車輛的一個措施但是這樣子的一個做法部長認為有足夠的嚇阻作用嗎?"},{"start":6954.122,"end":6969.424,"text":"我覺得把罰則提高當然會有一些嚇阻作用出來但是更重要的是源頭的管理就是讓它偽造的車牌沒有辦法進來這個部分我們也跨部會正在努力當中還有就是執法的部分我們也在跨部會努力當中"},{"start":6969.924,"end":6998.588,"text":"當然這個分成兩個層面一個是民眾有惡意去購買可能做一些危害治安的行為另外一個可能有一些無辜的百姓鄉親他們並不曉得這個嚴重性所以我們怎麼樣除了在所謂的一個積極的一個處罰的這個層面上面怎麼樣針對這個一個法規的一個宣導包含提醒是不是觸及到所謂一個偽造特種文書件的一個"},{"start":6998.848,"end":7002.409,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":7029.176,"end":7053.218,"text":"這邊我還是要提醒部長這個事情不是只有交通部的事情他必須要跨部會來整合包含我想這個背後這是一個很龐大一個非法的供應鏈從製造進口到網路銷售甚至這平台都看得到都買得到怎麼樣跨部會來做整合怎麼樣提出一個對策部長是不是有什麼樣可以提出一個具體的一個方式措施"},{"start":7053.979,"end":7076.146,"text":"跨部會的整合的部分一直在進行當中,包含財政部也幫忙在這個源頭阻斷的部分,讓它進口沒有辦法進來,在海關的部分先阻斷。那速發部也協助我們在網路的平台上面如何讓它下架。那當然查緝的部分內政部警政署也相當的幫忙,在查緝的部分他們也跟我們合作,我們聯合在查緝有做偽造車牌的這個部分。"},{"start":7077.761,"end":7104.021,"text":"本席還是要提醒這個上有政策下有對策當我們在做一些政策的時候犯罪說法又在日新月異像我這幾天我在高速公路上面其實不是只有偽造車牌甚至我們現在有些車子它的車牌上面給你裝LED燈或是做一些什麼樣的處理讓你快速都拍不到這個真的很多很多"},{"start":7105.041,"end":7121.983,"text":"日新月異的手法我想這也必須我們的公路局跟相關警政組單位要來看怎麼樣來做這樣的一個查緝尤其高速公路非常的危險是不是在所謂的一個我們的一個公路警察局的還有包含我們國道警察隊的部分怎麼樣來做一個巡訪的處理"},{"start":7123.445,"end":7146.658,"text":"那另外針對我剛剛有看到我們的報告裡面有提到無照駕駛這個部分那當然我覺得我們現在尤其偏鄉面臨一個問題就是所謂的一個未成年的一個無照駕駛跟老年人口的事故我想上次部長到屏東的時候我們也特別提到我們現在的路越開越大條大家速度都很快那尤其有一些交叉路口"},{"start":7147.558,"end":7173.645,"text":"一些老人家經常就造成所謂的A1事故那我想除了這個事故之外那其實最大的一個問題你在於所謂的一個交通的一個普及性的一個不足啦公共運輸的部分要來加強是我想包含我們剛剛有提到不管是幸福巴士也好、小房公車也好甚至火車的一個通行的頻率你沒有這個大眾運輸的普及大家出門我就騎摩托車方便嘛"},{"start":7174.125,"end":7189.453,"text":"但方便的時候就造成事故的明顯的增加這是一個很重要的一個點那尤其有些學生、家長、小孩子怕他坐公車坐不住所以他只好讓他買摩托車讓他去騎不用駕照啊才能造成事故啊"},{"start":7190.51,"end":7219.93,"text":"這部分我們怎麼樣去加強這個部分一方面我們會加強輔導對於年長者或者是未成年未成年當然我們就列管希望他透過教育的方式希望他們家長要負起責任不要讓他做這樣的行為那對於年長者我們會輔導他盡量去考照那另外就是委員您剛剛所關注的幸福巴士的部分還有公共運輸的部分我們目前在偏鄉的部分我們盡量去加強就是說盡量在補助的方面做足一點讓他的路線、路網可以更廣服務到所有的鄉親"},{"start":7220.25,"end":7241.981,"text":"是我覺得越普及大家就會越使用大眾運輸工具這是一定的啦是啊你估計一、兩間房間一房車什麼人要坐的金額就沒辦法支付嘛所以這個部分我們會優化到時候他叫車的模式叫車的模式如果可以用預約的他就不用用等車的方式小黃公車是對我們目前看起來是最好的一個方式是是是而且跟這個老人家又很貼近"},{"start":7242.341,"end":7259.273,"text":"是 所以我們現在大力在推廣這方面那就拜託部長這邊能夠再積極來輔導我們屏東縣政府能夠強化這個這樣的一個普及率那另外我們小琉球是一個我們現在很重要的一個旅遊的一個景點那我想關公署這個大棚管理處"},{"start":7260.734,"end":7279.912,"text":"比較遺憾的啦因為現在小琉球其實觀光署沒做什麼事情就將近有200萬的人會過去小琉球這個比常住人口還多但是很遺憾的現在目前面臨所謂的一個交通跟停車的一個嚴重的不足那尤其這個我們的目前的碼頭這個"},{"start":7281.593,"end":7298.278,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健"},{"start":7304.58,"end":7326.481,"text":"這也走無旁貸啦這搭配觀光的部分怎麼樣配合我們航港局做一個規劃是不是請署長說明一下對跟委員報告這個部分我們除了航港局的協助興建一些部分的停車空間之外其實我們也跟縣政府充分合作我們也希望這個島是一個綠色島我們希望以後的話能夠只有電動機車"},{"start":7327.882,"end":7347.064,"text":"因為我們覺得這個燃油的機車其實對這個島嶼的破壞是蠻大的但是還有一些相關的法令我們跟環境部在討論這應該要積極輔導啦因為畢竟這個琉球的這個整個生態保育我想也是一條路路形態很多都用汽機車的所以這部分還是要請部長這邊再積極來處理"},{"start":7349.326,"end":7378.626,"text":"好,那最後一個我想肯定的一個觀光困境這個剛剛我們李委員他們有講這個除了國外人口這個國外旅遊人口銳減之外連這個國旅真的也是肯定的痛明顯明顯非常的下降截至目前為止只有剩下185萬的人次就要去年這個大幅減少了將近140萬人那剩下一個多月署長我想你經常提到的微笑曲線是我想這個"},{"start":7379.566,"end":7402.039,"text":"想法都很好啦但是執行面真的我們要去思考一下我們不只是在地的觀光業者苦不堪言甚至這些社區我想這個未來有沒有積極一個機會能夠跟他們合作讓他們藉由一些生態旅遊達到環境保護的一個目標也可以創造一些的一個商機這部分是不是我們來重新來檢討一下"},{"start":7403.32,"end":7427.027,"text":"跟委員報告我們除了這個恆春配合恆春150週年之外我們覺得尤其是屏南的部分應該成立一個專案這個部分應該把墾丁拉進來我們會跟那個墾管處一起還有這個國家公園署我們覺得這件事情它涉及到兩個層面一個就是將這個秩序把它做得更安全更有品質"},{"start":7428.127,"end":7445.695,"text":"也就是品質的部分應該要確保那第二個部分才是怎麼去隱刻怎麼讓它去有更有系統化的這些活動能夠按照這樣子一個發展去做一些隨意的活動這兩個部分我們會用專業的方式來做處理我們必要的時候我們會可以請警察單位來參與"},{"start":7447.116,"end":7473.559,"text":"好 那我想恆春建成150週年是明年很重要的一個活動那我想藉由這個機會我們再請跨部會來重新盤點包含我們的內政部也好、交通部也好相關部會重新來檢視一下墾丁這個恆春半島這個國家公園到底有什麼樣新的一些特色或是一些新的玩法我想不要讓人覺得來坤町就是整個地方在玩而已"},{"start":7475.18,"end":7503.606,"text":"不會有新的刺激我想部長也才能下去嘛一定要有真的要有新的規劃新的策略新的深度旅遊那甚至我覺得連這個我們未來這個高鐵這個搭配一些活動部分怎麼樣拉到這個恆春半島我覺得有很多的面向一起來努力啦那未來我想肯定是一個這個台灣的一個很重要的一個旅遊資源那也希望藉由這樣的一個處理能夠讓更多人來到屏東看見屏東的美好謝謝"},{"start":7504.266,"end":7526.85,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝許委員我們現在處理臨時提案請總共只有一案請議事人員宣讀臨時提案一假車牌問題犯難交通部以表決心將重罰整頓交通部首要職務再積極盤點全國路段"},{"start":7528.41,"end":7546.85,"text":"現屬之何以設置以達致保障用路人人身安全並同時對車輛扣牌案件進行更具效率之掌控進而緩解假車牌倉局以自不利主管機關管理之窘境公路局曾於2023年辦理道路數限定並原則委託研究案"},{"start":7547.33,"end":7574.097,"text":"此項研究案與我國假車牌犯案問題關聯至深。交通部應盡數辦理並對外報告結果。針對上開事項,交通部應於一個月內向提案委員及立法院交通委員會提出書面報告詳載假車牌與全國各路段速限檢討之問題。提案人委員徐富奎等。宣讀完畢。好,請問委員有沒有補充說明?來,徐委員。"},{"start":7575.046,"end":7600.263,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天我跟林議警委我們幾個委員提這個案子就是針對我們現在因為我們現在的道路的這個開闢都很筆直然後又很大條所以尤其在樹線上面往往有時候從70、80公里一下子降到40、50公里這個一不小心就會造成很多的一個違規事件然後甚至造成很多的一些問題也造成很多的民怨"},{"start":7600.743,"end":7625.019,"text":"那針對這個部分公路局在去年曾經訂一個委託案但到目前為止還沒有一個具體的一個結果那所以本期這邊要求是不是我們交通部在一個月之內針對這個規劃案的處理情形向我們交通委員會提出一個書面報告那也詳載所謂一個假車牌跟各路段的一個速限的一個檢查問題以上補充 謝謝"},{"start":7627.708,"end":7642.379,"text":"好的 謝謝許委員那我們行政機關有沒有意見回饋是沒有 我們交通部遵照辦理遵照辦理是不是是好那針對於我們這個臨時提案我們就照案通過好 沒有問題的話我們臨時提案處理完畢如果有委員對上述提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報繼續請陳素月召委發言"},{"start":7660.826,"end":7664.05,"text":"呃,待會陳樹葉召委發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。謝謝主席。請主席邀請陳部長。陳部長。"},{"start":7682.456,"end":7688.202,"text":"部長早安今天委員會是針對偽造車牌還有無照駕駛的一個專報我們看到有關偽造車牌的案件數根據統計我們看到近5年來的偽造件數"},{"start":7700.513,"end":7701.794,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":7724.132,"end":7742.789,"text":"有可能是就是酒駕被吊銷之後的或者是說販毒的發墜集團或者是車手等等他們會來購買這樣子的一個偽造的一個車牌所以也造成了這個整個治安或者甚至是其他用路人的一個安全的一個威脅所以在這個部分"},{"start":7743.369,"end":7769.778,"text":"當然就是也牽涉到警政署還有我們交通部都要一起來合作那就我們交通部的部分我們對於偽造車牌這樣子的一個狀況我們目前的一個防範措施是什麼是不是可以請部長先講一下報告委員我們第一個措施是針對源頭管制的部分我們請財政部包含在海關的部分來協助我們然後還有就是網路的部分讓民眾不容易取得這樣子的偽造車牌因為大家都知道說現在"},{"start":7771.078,"end":7795.824,"text":"數位平台發達很多人的偽造車牌都是從網路上面所以我們也請訴發部有在協助我們在做下架的部分那這個部分當然我們自己公路局每一天都在網路上面巡查每一天都巡查巡查到的時候有那個網路的程式機器人程式在巡查巡查到馬上就會送警政機關那移送警政機關以外我們也請訴發部來協助那是源頭的部分那另外"},{"start":7796.224,"end":7821.699,"text":"跨機關的查緝我們也跟警政署大家聯手在做查緝包含高工局包含公路局包含警政署的部分我們大家配合在查緝那第三個部分是針對這個罰則的加重我們現在正在努力當中我們大概這一兩天就會送到行政院把我們的版本送到行政院之後那行政院大概在一個月之內我們希望在這個會期能夠完成整個罰則加重的這個修法的程序"},{"start":7822.338,"end":7842.464,"text":"是,剛剛部長有提到就是源頭的管理嘛所以剛剛您講的那個都是就是相關的一個措施那其中還有一個就是防偽的一個設計嘛這部分我在上一次就是其實好像在上個月也有質詢這個議題那時候應該公路局有回覆說我們就是會有一些防偽的一個技術"},{"start":7844.764,"end":7866.05,"text":"來防治這個不法集團的一個偽造、變造這個車牌。那我們也看到最近的新聞就這個月初就我們就看到了說我們查獲的這個車牌已經出現了說這個不法集團他們也可以偽造這個梅花烙印甚至是這個車牌背面的防偽雷雕的車號"},{"start":7867.33,"end":7874.005,"text":"所以他們的技術也是一直在升級耶所以我們的這樣的防偽的技術好像快跟不上了"},{"start":7874.482,"end":7897.967,"text":"當然他們防偽技術在升級我們的防偽技術也要升級所以請局長我們有什麼樣的升級措施各位報告我們現在其實這一個車牌的方位其實是多道的其實它有好幾種包括自體包括材質包括厚薄包括雷射包括前後面所以其實有好幾道其實就是說這個不法集團其實"},{"start":7899.267,"end":7928.392,"text":"這一個偽造的這個部分其實我們還是可以辨別出來是真或假當然就是說因為有一些的這一個真偽的部分它其實是比較細所以就是說有些還要用一些設備所以我們大概在明年度包括檢證署也有給我們一些建議我們會再召集相關機關對於就是說車牌的防偽的功能的提升我想我們在明年度的車牌設計上面還會再做相關的一個規劃是 就是車牌的設計那有沒有考慮就是加晶片的這樣的一個方法"},{"start":7929.364,"end":7948.854,"text":"這個部分會納入考量不過就是說目前其實包括就是像高雄局它ETC通過的有一些就是說這一個屬於這個不適當的一些就是說車牌或偽造車牌的部分其實它ETC的有一些資訊其實都有回饋到我們監理跟警察機關我們也都有相關來查緝"},{"start":7950.06,"end":7963.91,"text":"是,好,那就是剛剛部長有提到就是我們目前也有提出道教條例的相關的一個修法,就是要加重罰款嘛,那本席也有提案,那就是針對第12條之一就是有針對這個使用偽造、變造或者是就是冒領的這個車牌、牌照,我們就是要"},{"start":7971.976,"end":7995.43,"text":"來加重他的一個罰則那我提的是罰款是比較重一點那另外我也有主張說希望就是累犯的話要把那個車輛直接沒入我們新的修法裡面也有包含沒入車輛也有這樣子的一個主張我們會直接沒入不用累犯就直接就沒入就直接沒入那我們也是希望就是說就是針對這個偽造車牌的這樣子一個犯案的一個形態能夠多管齊下然後"},{"start":8000.293,"end":8024.599,"text":"二指將指的一個犯罪數的一個成長另外我們針對就是有關無照駕駛的這個部分我們也看到最近就是說幾件因為無照駕駛所以造成釀造這個悲劇的一個狀況就是讓我們也覺得非常的就是感覺說這也是一個對用路人一個很大的一個安全上的一個威脅那我們看到無照駕駛其實有幾個樣態就是"},{"start":8026.88,"end":8041.125,"text":"就是年紀大的長輩或者是未成年的還有包括就是吊銷駕照的所以這個部分因為我們目前交通部也是有要加重這個罰則那我們大概是會怎麼樣的一個修法"},{"start":8042.549,"end":8062.415,"text":"我請市長回答這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說滑緩的部分的話就是比照無形駕駛有2萬4提高到這一個3萬6那另外一個部分的話因為無照駕駛必須要有車輛的取得所以對於汽車所有人部分連帶處罰包括牌照一個月提高到3個月3個月提高到6個月6個月提高到"},{"start":8064.715,"end":8066.976,"text":"副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":8081.241,"end":8091.516,"text":"這個目錄所以大概從法令的部分從這幾個部分那另外一個部分大家比較關切的未成年無照駕駛跟這個高齡者的部分的話另外有這個加強輔導這個變形的一些這個機制來做一個處理"},{"start":8096.047,"end":8118.787,"text":"是,我們也看一下就是說我們看到近5年的那個無照駕駛的那個舉發件數那在整個就是累計5年的舉發件數高達67萬多那累犯的這個人的話是26萬多人次那我們光今年1到10月份就有22萬多人次那這邊我想在"},{"start":8120.103,"end":8136.374,"text":"就是請教的部分就是說剛剛我提到就是無照駕駛的三個樣態可是他們無照駕駛還有就是有點區別就是說汽車的無照駕駛跟機車的無照駕駛那剛剛市長回覆的這個加重罰則的部分我們有沒有差別"},{"start":8136.914,"end":8163.272,"text":"那是汽車﹖針對機車﹖跟我的報告是有差別因為這次就是只提高這個上限沒有去動下限那基本上就是考慮到這個汽機車的這個種類不一樣那另外無照駕駛可能發生這一個事故跟沒發生事故的情節也會不一樣所以這次針對這個提高這個上限的部分就是針對大家認為惡性重大然後可能要提高罰款的部分來做處理這個下限沒有動所以是還有一個"},{"start":8165.473,"end":8174.245,"text":"就是對於車輛種類﹖對,汽機車其實到時候裁罰的時候會有一個差別,汽機車會有一個差別。就是有一個彈性的空間。是。是。是。好,那謝謝部長。謝謝委員。好,謝謝陳書悅、昭偉。我們現在休息10分鐘。"},{"start":8186.266,"end":8196.349,"text":"二、倫敦縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣"},{"start":8213.955,"end":8234.414,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17"},{"start":8234.974,"end":8249.793,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8254.014,"end":8262.602,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ"},{"start":8274.233,"end":8282.386,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8289.777,"end":8319.397,"text":"委員會裡面做一些修法的工作當然也就希望未來在交通上面不要再發生不幸的事件那昨天所發生的不幸的事件我們知道是大型車輛那對於大型車輛的管制其實有都在做進行另外就是查核的部分就是T查的部分的部分段也是在加強當中那我們昨天看到的不幸的事件我們看到第一排的這個公車其實大型的那個駕駛員其實沒有擋車而且他有做檢查確認那這也是我們公路局所要求的"},{"start":8319.617,"end":8325.342,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8343.7,"end":8356.239,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8359.039,"end":8381.474,"text":"對 這方面的道路的標線跟標誌的指引我們希望能夠在11月提出來那我們希望未來人體的臺灣的所有的道路的標準跟標線可以更加的安全而且針對行人讓行人可以更加的安全這是我這一次要修改的重點那整體的整套的方案跟未來的指引希望在11月確定出來所有的縣市跟所有的單位可以來遵循使用"},{"start":8389.44,"end":8396.75,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8400.857,"end":8427.09,"text":"當然未來會加強查緝啦對於這個造車牌我們只是加強查緝針對罰則的部分大家也有知道我們罰則的部分只要到三萬元除此之外我們也會針對車輛做末路的部分那所以我提醒到所有的民眾不要去使用樓上的車牌未來的罰則會非常的重會非常的重甚至連車輛都必須要末路這是我們希望能夠達到特殊的作用"},{"start":8428.19,"end":8447.267,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐委員黃健豪等17人、 ﹐"},{"start":8456.555,"end":8471.571,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17"},{"start":8472.952,"end":8494.023,"text":"平等、不外乎其他車輛輸出的情況那對於那大型客車的這個駕駛部分還在訓練與修修其實我們認為只要對用戶人來講安全能夠提升是我們能夠還是做得到包含未來提招的部分是不是應該要再更落實或者是說再更加強你加強什麼樣的觀念讓駕駛者可以更落實、讓車輛更安全這部分我們會回來加強請問"},{"start":8503.423,"end":8506.386,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8529.549,"end":8529.849,"text":"二、倫敦縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣"},{"start":8553.887,"end":8565.614,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8578.882,"end":8601.979,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17"},{"start":8605.042,"end":8626.595,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8632.492,"end":8634.818,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8636.57,"end":8636.79,"text":"二、倫敦縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣縣"},{"start":8667.03,"end":8670.552,"text":"二、審查 ﹖二、審查 ﹖二、審查 ﹖二、審查 ﹖二、審查 ﹖二、審查"},{"start":8697.209,"end":8707.214,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健"},{"start":8713.807,"end":8733.715,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8736.337,"end":8762.335,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17"},{"start":8773.598,"end":8788.587,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":8797.827,"end":8808.277,"text":"好,謝謝主席喔,那我們先請交通部陳部長陳部長呃,跟欸?今天觀光局署長,觀光署署長周署長"},{"start":8815.492,"end":8834.053,"text":"好 部長早 署長早首先針對我們還是針對旅館業的部分當然今天會有一個要來審查所謂旅館的這個相關的條例那我想確認一下這旅館業裡面這管理規則部分對於消防的法規的部分的設置標準相對一般住宅是比較高的那我想問一下這個署長"},{"start":8834.774,"end":8859.194,"text":"過去這些年包含這次所謂列管的這些項目裡面不管是相關大樓也好或是救國團或各項這個活動中心等等的這個列管的這些案例裡面有些過去幾年它通過了那還有一些還沒有通過那我想問一個核心問題在所謂在列管的這些這個住宿型的這個單位裡面他們的消防法規有沒有定期去檢查有沒有符合這個消防的規範"},{"start":8860.297,"end":8878.823,"text":"一般來講都是由地方政府去執行那麼都應該要有符合那沒有符合的話地方政府直接開罰了所以第二個部分是應該說他的這個會館的部分跟旅行旅館業的部分大概應該要分開來看待是這樣子"},{"start":8879.463,"end":8906.144,"text":"那對旅館業委員所指教的旅館業的部分不管是觀光旅館或是飯店一般旅館跟這個所謂的這個民宿我們都有執行對當然我說今天旅館比如說觀光旅館一般旅館或者是這種民宿有所謂的消防法規嘛那也是規你們在處理那地方政府會查驗他們都合格這沒問題我現在講的是你們列館的所謂的像剛剛提到的在今天修法裡面主要談到的像這個會館"},{"start":8909.648,"end":8922.887,"text":"運動活動中心的活動中心、救國團、然後還有強靠大樓等等的這些他依然有提供住宿那提供住宿這些機構他的這個消防法規有沒有符合相關規範還是沒有符合所以沒有通過問題是這個"},{"start":8924.309,"end":8939.94,"text":"我們只主管這個公安旅館跟旅館一般旅館跟民宿那其他的話就要按照相關的法令譬如說香客的部分那當然是內政部在主管所以這個部分應該是都在執行應該都沒有什麼問題"},{"start":8941.54,"end":8961.313,"text":"那所以你意思是說像香客大樓它的消防法規有沒有符合可不可以住宿的規範不歸你們處理是不是因為它沒有營業的行為如果營業的行為就屬於我們的規範如果它沒有營業的行為的話那當然就是按照一般的權責單位來做管理"},{"start":8961.693,"end":8987.652,"text":"好 謝謝署長那接下來我們討論其他的問題這個觀光逆差的部分我想去年有推估去年是逆差超過1400億元那今年預估會達到7300億元那主要原因我們連接一些社群的民調最主要原因大家認為說國內的住宿成本高是主要原因那再來是國外旅遊比台灣便宜那第三個原因是因為國內缺乏新的或新一年的景點所以導致我們這個觀光客逐年"},{"start":8988.012,"end":8988.472,"text":"二、副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":9006.38,"end":9022.41,"text":"其實你看前幾個基本上幾個原因都跟錢就很大很大的關係基本上價錢占了最大原因不管是出租成本還是國外旅遊比較便宜或是國內的物價過高等等它都涉及到錢的問題所以我不知道到底交通部跟觀光署面對我們觀光衰退這部分你們有什麼樣的解決方案"},{"start":9024.692,"end":9039.669,"text":"這有兩個結構性的問題就是第一個就是現在出國的話大概就是國外啊國跟國之間大概都是航空的費用成本是比較高的那住宿的部分呢在台灣的結構來看我們是看國旅的部分"},{"start":9040.67,"end":9056.462,"text":"國旅分兩個,一個是平日、一個是假日。現在的假日台灣的形態已經是五、六日了。平日是星期一到星期四。如果說平均房價來看,這個部分我們可以看起來跟差異性不大。"},{"start":9057.222,"end":9072.858,"text":"但是因為我們現在旅遊的形態做改變所以在國旅的部分大概一日遊佔了我們的70%所以我們一直希望國內旅遊能夠增加住宿主長這個先打斷你一下你剛剛說到這個飛機票問題我想"},{"start":9075.16,"end":9093.389,"text":"如果飛機票成本太高我想那是全球的問題不會只有台灣飛出國外的問題但是很顯然是我們出國的人是很多其他國家到其他國家的人數也很多唯獨其他國家來台灣旅遊的人數變少問題在這邊所以我想歸咎於機票成本成長我覺得不是主因啦"},{"start":9093.829,"end":9121.031,"text":"那國內輸出成本的問題也是需要說這個交通部或觀光署啊你們應該去協調不管勞動部也好或經濟部也好其實到底成本成本一定很多原因造成的嘛不是只有不是只有補助可以解決的那到底成本為什麼為什麼會過高你們有沒有找過各單位來來瞭解過還是就是一直發發有一個部分是地價稅跟房屋稅那個逐年都增加的那因為是地方稅那這個對旅館來講他的成本確實是墊高"},{"start":9122.185,"end":9147.022,"text":"那這就你們要去找相關單位來協調嗎?什麼時候會找他們來協調?我們持續都在討論什麼時候?有嗎?你們有開過那次的會議嗎?針對房價的部分我們可以專案來開一個會什麼時候?那我們也提供一個網站就是評價的這個我們叫旅宿網然後有些比較優惠的評價其實都在那邊我覺得你現在講的是治標啦就是說第一時間我提供這樣就像之前物價上漲的時候提供一個所謂"},{"start":9148.263,"end":9162.943,"text":"有些比較便宜的網站或便宜的特別區域但是整體的如果你像提到說你的稅的問題也好或是人事成本的成長也好他是整體的嘛你看到偶爾短期促銷我可以提供便宜的給你沒錯但長期來講你整個成本還是高的啊所以今天要問的是說有沒有機會找各單位來"},{"start":9164.525,"end":9191.167,"text":"委員在指示的應該是針對整個旅宿的業者他們的成本如何降低那這個部分有關於跨部會的部分我們是不是最近趕快來啟動幾個部分一個部分包含勞動成本一個部分包含剛剛署長署報告的就是針對稅的部分的成本這個部分看要怎麼降低這個部分我們來協助旅宿業者讓他能夠降低成本這是一方面那二方面其實台灣目前確實五六日假日的房價確實是相對比較高"},{"start":9192.748,"end":9219.034,"text":"那一到四是相對是比較低的那大家很習慣都是五六日出遊所以當然是價格比較高不過我們現在還是有一些比較平價的旅館平價的飯店那這個部分我有請觀光署我們大家來整合一下怎麼讓民眾去了解或者是去取得到這個比較平價旅館的一些訊息讓他們如果假日要出遊不一定只有貴的旅館他們有一些平價的旅館可以去這個部分的資訊我們應該要趕快提供給民眾"},{"start":9219.754,"end":9244.977,"text":"好 謝謝部長請你們要盡快的來處理這個很嚴重的問題不然這是其實衝擊到的是很龐大的就業市場不是只有旅館業而已因為觀光帶來的是周邊很多的效應不是只有住宿而已所以這部分要請你們盡快處理那再來就是今天也要談到這個所謂假車牌的問題我也是感謝交通部這兩天有新聞看得出來你們從善如流願意來採納相關的修法建議那當然這道理"},{"start":9246.818,"end":9255.59,"text":"從過去幾年下來這個假車牌今年突然暴增我想問一下交通部有沒有掌握到底什麼原因導致今天假車牌的原因增加這麼多"},{"start":9257.037,"end":9280.71,"text":"假車牌增加的原因幾個方面一方面是針對這個偽造的技術跟偽造的可以買賣的這個平台大家現在日新月異那二方面呢可能是因為這個被扣牌照的數字其實有提升這個部分確實有提升但民眾被扣牌照之後又希望使用那台車子所以他就會來買賣這個所謂的假車牌"},{"start":9283.351,"end":9312.831,"text":"當然我們今天提出修法希望說能夠去阻斷說假車牌的問題因為交通有交通問題但是我們剛剛在提案說明的時候也提過了其實最核心的是治安問題當然我們希望說治安當然用治安方式來解決就當然說沒路車輛但是我們還是希望交通部去想一下到底從去年到今年為什麼假車牌你剛剛提到的假車牌的數量為什麼突然暴增這麼多去年就幾百件耶今年已經破千了那這原因到底是什麼是因為交通法規的改變所以導致很多人被扣牌"},{"start":9313.251,"end":9314.672,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":9329.438,"end":9345.465,"text":"還有很多一般的有一些人他不是真的他要犯罪他就是他就是要開車但他的車牌被扣了那到底為什麼車牌被扣我是希望說交通部能夠去檢討一下去想一下什麼原因導致這個車牌被扣那這個原因到底出在哪裡交通部目前有研究過嗎這個部分是不是請市長"},{"start":9349.242,"end":9375.008,"text":"這部分跟委員報告一下當然就是使用這個假車牌的部分兩個部分嘛這個叫做那個牌照被吊扣、吊銷或塑銷那另外一個部分就是蓄意可能從事犯罪行為的那個部分那針對這個吊扣、吊銷牌照這個部分那吊扣的部分有一大部分是來自於車輛遇檢的部分所以剛剛委員有提到針對如何讓車主依照規定來這個定期檢驗這個是一個後面要去加強的"},{"start":9375.768,"end":9376.128,"text":"董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長"},{"start":9394.057,"end":9413.879,"text":"局長這邊還是提供啦後續提供給本席說到底你們分析說到底這今年跟去年差別在哪裡那為什麼今年成長這麼多這個是最主要原因那最後最後我們還是堅持說這個本來上次質詢的時候就提了原來的法則裡面就有末路車輛那我想問一下現在的執行所謂末路車輛會不會有困難"},{"start":9416.354,"end":9442.442,"text":"就是懸掛假車牌、偽造車牌跟委員報告應該沒有困難好 那我們就確定的執行好不好是好 謝謝好 謝謝黃健豪委員接下來有請林俊憲委員發言好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":9449.468,"end":9477.277,"text":"部長你好部長你新上任是所以我覺得民生第一我都跟你討論一些關於我們交通上影響最多民眾的我今天要跟你講的是前幾天發生了一個不幸車禍台中的公車撞死了東海大學的一位女學生是那司機說因為天色太暗他只看到兩個黑影然後就撞到了"},{"start":9479.759,"end":9501.28,"text":"另外在很多次的車禍發生的時候駕駛經常在他口述、口供裡面他都會講是行人突然間竄出來台灣被稱為行人地獄我們來看看那什麼樣的狀況下是行人最危險的時候我說的是一天的時段"},{"start":9503.052,"end":9522.998,"text":"夜間真的最危險數字會我提供給部長當參考最近5年多來行人因交通事故而死亡最多的都是在晚上6點到清晨6點就是下半天黑夜的時候行人最危險"},{"start":9525.171,"end":9554.084,"text":"那黑夜的時候為什麼最危險有可能是開車人不守規矩但是只要我這裡統計的是A1的交通事故你看白天跟黑夜其實照理講白天車輛是最多因為大家上下班那為什麼到晚上的時候反而行人致死是白天至少50%到一倍兩倍差別非常大"},{"start":9555.151,"end":9565.278,"text":"所以台灣的夜晚是行人地獄裡面最恐怖的時候來 我們來看一下你看 這黑夜白天差多少來 下一張你這樣看得到嗎 沒中這瓶 有 有看到你看得到不是 這麼暗的天的狀況下你過網路安全嗎你開車都不一定看得到斑馬線"},{"start":9584.466,"end":9613.409,"text":"這張是不是很亮是抱歉 這不是台灣這是韓國你在國外只要是有行人穿越八馬線的部分它的照明一定是特別加強一定特別加強政府為了解決所謂行人地域花了多少錢花了幾百億去改善所謂的危險道路危險路口光線這種光線那當然危險你要知道"},{"start":9615.051,"end":9641.554,"text":"我們法律上啊行人的光線啊人行道的光線是有規定的喔部長我給你一個參考交通規則規範這是我們交通部自己訂的行人穿越道照明標準有在寫沒在做我們照講行人穿越道的光線啊你是要達到一定的亮度啦結果都沒有啦"},{"start":9642.671,"end":9668.233,"text":"你看一看你是不是應該做一個總檢討啊否則啦回到上一頁你說說看這個顯不合理的分配啦每一年啊那麼多新人死亡啊他的時間啊都集中在反而車輛比較少的晚上然後肇事者經常最常講的就是說他看不清楚了人突然間竄出來了"},{"start":9669.69,"end":9696.686,"text":"包括前幾天發生的臺中公車撞死大學生也是這樣子有一件車禍也很出名啊就我們的賴世保委員啊他不是撞到人那媒體不知道怎麼樣把他的行車紀錄器拖出來坦白講喔那看起來真的是很黑暗賴委員他也這麼講賴世保委員也這麼講他說那個光線不是很清楚他沒有看得很清楚"},{"start":9698.601,"end":9725.399,"text":"所以我現在請交通部你既然有訂這樣一個規範交通工程規範行人穿越到照明標準那你叫照做那我再給你再給部長一個參考你在國外除了光線以外你車輛要到那個人行道你要讓它減速台灣完全沒有這樣一個設計你怎麼讓它減速呢最容易做的就是用物理性的東西"},{"start":9726.82,"end":9732.825,"text":"就所謂的緩速道、緩速台來讓車輛減低速度了我再給你看一下一個是韓國的這個是新加坡的韓國的車輛你要來到人行道它一定會經過一個緩速台就是會讓你的車輛不得不減速"},{"start":9752.179,"end":9765.547,"text":"然後我們台灣在過斑馬線因為我都從高雷站我都是習慣走路到立法院來我每次要走人行道我每次要走斑馬線我一定要從人行道跳下來"},{"start":9767.165,"end":9791.882,"text":"因為人行道比較高嘛斑馬線比較低嘛是不是如果嬰兒推車你要推推或是你拿貨物要過斑馬線你要先從人行道跳下來才能走斑馬線你看國外都不會有這個問題新加坡、日本他們都把人行道稍微做高啦做高喔因為它旁邊要做緩速台那人行道做高第一個"},{"start":9793.104,"end":9808.735,"text":"也幫忙先做高你從人行道走下來不必有跳下來的感覺啦比較安全以外你人你走也走比較遠啦因為他有一個他等於有一點高度嘛所以駕駛也比較容易看到那裡有行人但是我們這邊沒有啦台灣只會教育行人你出門要穿亮色衣服這什麼 這多愚蠢的建議啊"},{"start":9822.466,"end":9825.148,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":9845.489,"end":9851.354,"text":"兩邊要做緩速台,讓車輛經過它的時候,強迫它一定要減速。受理的工委,你看你的行人死在人行穿越道,案件有減少嗎?都沒有嗎?"},{"start":9863.137,"end":9885.221,"text":"我希望這個部分你們要趕快去改善報告委員您在說的那個光線的部分我們現在的道路改善的部分有把這個部分都納進來那還有很多的路段前幾天才剛出現一個死亡車禍這個我清楚所以那個部分已經有做檢討您剛剛在講的東海女學生我現在沒什麼時間我延續一下剛剛那個黃健豪委員所問您的問題那為什麼現在假車牌那麼多你們自己要統計"},{"start":9893.192,"end":9921.563,"text":"檢察局有統計使用腳車牌的原因是什麼腳車牌什麼時候開始增多其實是去年就增多了來看這個表2022年一年我現在用的是嚴重超速的件數因為這時間點非常配合嚴重超速我們原本是超速60公里吊扣車牌2023年去年把它改成超速40就吊扣車牌"},{"start":9922.813,"end":9928.356,"text":"所以這個案件吵在吊牌的數字多了4倍多了4倍從一年15520件變成6萬件變成6萬件我們修改法律的目的在幹嘛是希望能夠嚇阻啦希望能夠減少犯罪行為這是我們修法的目的啦你修了一個法結果那麼多人違規"},{"start":9951.82,"end":9970.808,"text":"你如果多一點點就算了你多了四倍那表示啊你這個法律啊那會讓很多人可能是不小心就違法政府要超出多少拔掉人造車牌啊你應該先檢討啊你的訴訟有合理嗎公共電視台做了一個這樣的專輯節目跑去台灣找他說你的訴訟有合理嗎"},{"start":9980.674,"end":9984.516,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":10008.476,"end":10032.266,"text":"他抓到了就成長6倍這個是有抓到假車牌有抓到就成長6倍那有關係嗎?警察局我們的警政署有分析使用偽造車牌的樣態為什麼?什麼原因你們要使用偽造車牌?38%是因為他車牌被調控有將近4成我的車牌用烤的所以逼他要去用假車牌"},{"start":10037.39,"end":10060.42,"text":"那這些被調貨車的車輛沒有車牌車子就不能開嘛那很可能是家庭用車啦我要載孩子啦我要載大人啦我要上班啦對不對那有的是營業車輛那不能做生意啊那怎麼辦剛好你剛有提到了假車牌現在很容易買啦就這樣弄起來就像火一樣燒起來了"},{"start":10062.591,"end":10071.157,"text":"所以你現在抓到假車牌你就直接把車輛給沒路我認為使用假車牌還是有其他樣態啦如果拿來犯案犯罪那個車輛當然直接沒路啦那假車牌他做什麼事情那吊牌主要原因是超速那政府有沒有去檢討我們各地速限的合理性"},{"start":10090.308,"end":10098.27,"text":"等等那我認為法律上還是要做一個比較現有的法律什麼樣的狀態下你的車牌、你的車輛會被沒路其實都是非常嚴重的啦你的重傷啦你弄海溪人啦弄溪人、擋凶車輛才有沒路我現在列出來給你看部長只有這些狀況下車輛才會沒路你現在使用腳車牌車子要直接沒路"},{"start":10120.342,"end":10146.12,"text":"那我們的法律規範上就只要用假車牌就直接摸入嗎?還是有沒有再細分一下?我們未來新的修法的方向目前是只要使用假車牌車子就會被摸入。好,這我有時間的問題了,抱歉,我們主席已經站起來了。那這個部分我們在後續再來做一些討論,好不好?好,謝謝部長、謝謝局長、謝謝主席。好,謝謝林俊賢委員的質詢。那接下來我們請羅明哲委員。"},{"start":10160.014,"end":10163.796,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請交通部陳部長好 我們請交通部陳部長好 這個首先針對今天幾個我們委員修法的第一個提案"},{"start":10177.196,"end":10195.108,"text":"那把我的看法提出來首先是無照駕駛因為10月份一個15歲的算青少年然後說偷來車開出去然後就撞死了三條人命那事實上沒有駕照尤其青少年孩子們"},{"start":10195.908,"end":10224.559,"text":"他們不管是騎機車、衝出去或者開車不光是對所有的用路人非常危險對自己的生命我覺得也非常輕忽我看你們報告有特別來寫每一天無照駕駛每一年被抓到的案件大概都30萬上下今年1到10月大概22.7萬所以這數字是蠻多的其中一個再犯比率因為你們現在的規定"},{"start":10226.059,"end":10238.124,"text":"罰款的部分是六千到兩萬四但是五年內如果你第二次第二次再來那直接罰最高的兩萬四那被罰兩萬四的我們發掘要重複比例高達39%其實這中間有個意義啦"},{"start":10241.94,"end":10264.685,"text":"他可能每天都在開啦只是不小心被弄到兩次啦所以這個的部分齁這種不管是僥倖的程度或者你分析這個問題我是真的覺得我們交通部啊跟我們這個司長齁甚至整個監理體系啊你們真的要去好好思考到這個問題啦那目前這個是朝向提高罰款的方向來修嗎"},{"start":10265.505,"end":10292.699,"text":"除了提高罰款之外我們針對吊扣牌照的部分如果他是累犯的話吊扣牌照的部分我們也會提高好那我們看看無照駕駛部分青少年的部分其實我們也是覺得蠻憂心的蠻憂心的那整個部分正好監察院的調查報告今年的4月11號也出來了嘛他這邊講說兒少無照駕駛警方雖然持續取締我們副組長也上來一下"},{"start":10293.919,"end":10318.762,"text":"持續起立但仍然沒有有效的改善確實我們警政機關是在最後一線設防但是我們前面假設可以擋的不擋住漏過去其實現有的警力他們這麼繁忙不見得能夠有效去做處理那我們請問一下副署長對青少年無照駕駛你就覺得要怎麼樣去改善他們這些人的一個行為你在執法端你有沒有什麼一個建言"},{"start":10321.328,"end":10346.981,"text":"目前我們路邊在交通稽查的時候那我們查獲到這些青少年無照駕駛如果是載學學生的話我們都會在剛剛我的報告裡面就特別提到我們會給學校希望能夠納入列管來輔導甚至於我們也希望說學校輔導他們去考駕照"},{"start":10349.997,"end":10370.814,"text":"好 那也要輔導家長這個交通工具很奇怪尤其汽車就這樣被開出去我是覺得這個部分是整個社會要一起來做那我還是問一下警政署這個副署長那接下來講變造車牌我們看到這個數字剛剛很多委員都講了從109年來看到113年到今年還沒到年底"},{"start":10371.494,"end":10380.52,"text":"大約可能會成長10倍成長10倍就是變造車牌被抓到的一個數量這個數字是滿可觀的尤其113年跟112年比的話"},{"start":10383.707,"end":10408.573,"text":"預估直接成長3倍抓到這個數量那剛剛其實林俊彥委員講的我認為是一個確實的事實那我特別統計啦我沒有做表出來從去年6月30號我們新增把超速40公里認定為危險駕駛之後直接調扣車牌6個月6個月之後呢我統計了從7月1號開始"},{"start":10410.433,"end":10420.154,"text":"到今年的二月為什麼這樣統計呢因為他有很多申訴期啊你統計到這個月他就想說還不一定還在申訴所以我們乾脆就統計到二月八個月的時間"},{"start":10421.823,"end":10443.115,"text":"因為超速40公里被抓到的有6萬5千次那其中真正吊扣真正吊扣的先不要假車牌先不談這個真正最後被吊扣大家就6萬5就吊扣6萬5啊到底發生了什麼怎麼有人超速40不用吊扣呢"},{"start":10445.216,"end":10470.176,"text":"結論是吊扣三分之一沒有吊扣平均吊扣比例是66%所以第一個問題剛剛林俊賢委員講的我也是建議你們好好思考一下啦如果修法不能執行或者抓到人之後他比較大尾他理由比較充足他含淚來他說他去接誰你們撤銷理由你們自己去研究我們來專題來報告這不是今天一個重點但是奇怪了就是這麼多人超出40%抱歉40公里"},{"start":10473.078,"end":10490.688,"text":"然後沒事的你自己看吧6萬5只有4萬34萬3被調控就我剛剛講這8個月的時間那到底什麼原因呢那如果說原因有這麼多人可以免那是不是考慮你們是不是法律有問題啊那除了變造車牌之外"},{"start":10495.419,"end":10515.05,"text":"還有其他的像我們中立前陣子抓到因為疫情都有口罩奇怪他的車也感冒了他的車牌也放口罩去遮各種招數都有那確實這個一定我們覺得非常有機率不管是他為了違法是一個治安後續大案件的一個問題"},{"start":10516.391,"end":10538.31,"text":"第二個他是想他是違規避免我們飆車這等等的這個部分部長你剛才總結一下針對這個部分你們現在什麼時候會把案子送到立法院來報告委員我們希望在一個月之內能夠送到委員會來然後希望在這個會期看可不可以審議的可以通過那你這麼慢那我們要自己先審啦還是要等你啊"},{"start":10538.55,"end":10549.385,"text":"我們會加速我們會加速快一點啊是是我們整體的版本已經都擬定好了然後這兩天會送到行政院那很快的速度會送到大院那部長或者署長"},{"start":10551.759,"end":10572.164,"text":"法務部不用上來了你們覺得說你們現在要立一個法我覺得你們要稍微細節一點啦剛剛好多委員都在談這個問題到底法規是不是讓大家很容易違法呢是不是40公里是危險駕駛那是不是要修成50公里呢還是怎麼回事我們事實上常常在走突然"},{"start":10573.144,"end":10588.109,"text":"平均時速假設60公里突然他寫一個公區公區30說真的你根本也沒有辦法所以這個的部分我倒是覺得警政署或者交通部也不知道是誰你們去研究一下有沒有那種變造車牌是變造成自己號碼的"},{"start":10591.234,"end":10615.032,"text":"你聽懂我意思嗎我變造了半天其實這個東西就不是犯案啦我變造了半天就是過去的行為我變造車牌偽造車牌偽造成我自己行造的號碼這種其實我知道是不少喔他其實他只是想要開車而已啦他也沒有犯案那這個東西我覺得你們要值得去研究最後啊這個署長周署長其他請錄裂謝謝那個"},{"start":10620.137,"end":10627.453,"text":"我們有提就是發展觀光條例70之二條來那這個的部分我是給你建議一下第一個"},{"start":10630.051,"end":10655.81,"text":"我們現在想第一個問題我們給他10年的時間不管是教室會館、香客大樓甚至救國團的新年活動中心等等的他什麼事都沒做現在又要來跟我們要幾年如果是這樣我也覺得怪怪的如果是這樣可是我要真的做一個報告就是你們總共列館的這些零零總總包括香客大樓等等的118家"},{"start":10658.158,"end":10674.074,"text":"一百一十八家因為現在數字沒有出來大家會想說哇好像三五千家跟旅館業影響的幅度大概多到一百一十八家那現在勒是不是都沒處理處理完畢的六十三間啊"},{"start":10674.955,"end":10676.377,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":10698.118,"end":10724.64,"text":"轉型呂素月的有9家然後依照這個規費收規費啦我不不營利了齁包括景觀會館等等的還要轉做其他用途的好吧那我就參與啦或者會議場址總共已經處理處理完畢63家齁大概53%所以這10年不是沒有成果我現在講很多人努力在想要轉型上代處理的55家齁那我們來看一下"},{"start":10726.107,"end":10753.292,"text":"因為大家都講說不要這個都救國團可是因為我覺得這種說法有點不公平啦因為數字怎麼說勒118家救國團也12家啦你就算總數他也10%百分之十啦那有更多的地方地方很多的香客大樓教師會館甚至娛樂勞工娛樂中心他還需要時間處理所以我要在這裡也要拜託觀光署跟部長"},{"start":10754.292,"end":10781.575,"text":"他還有有意繼續要經營那在有很多案他已經在申請中了但因為疫情的關係說真的不是我們用疫情所有的工程因為延期軟硬體全部都延期那他們現在也提出來因為疫情兩到三年這個時間讓他們有一點延誤那這個正在申請中的又有33家而且按照觀光署給我們的回報"},{"start":10783.793,"end":10812.214,"text":"這33家呢現在已經在申請中間的階段甚至要收尾了預計在明年到期日之前大概有12家可以申請到那後面持續要申請的有21家所以我在這裡是不是建議說這個審到這個法條的時候是不是能夠給他們一些彈性我們並沒有要改變你法律的本質呂樹葉本身就要合法但是時間他有些剛剛我講了已經有拼過了"},{"start":10813.675,"end":10839.549,"text":"還在努力中的再給他一些時間我相信這是這個我們提的這個部分部長你看你怎麼說報告委員還在努力中的齁等一下我跟署長來討論一下看什麼樣的機制可以讓他能夠趕快齁可以趕快完成他所努力的方向齁那這個時間的部分我們也盡量討論一下看有沒有可能給他一些彈性好謝謝委員好謝謝魯明哲、昭緯的質詢那我們接下來請蔡緹參委員"},{"start":10853.363,"end":10857.467,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長我們請陳部長部長早委員早這個部長昨天有沒有看那個"},{"start":10870.381,"end":10888.002,"text":"呃十二強的這個棒球比賽我昨天沒看但是有看結論你看到結論結論是大家很開心對你知道我們已經贏下比賽對我們要往東京去前進東京嘛對我們要往東京去好這個我想昨天國人都沉浸在這種喜悅跟振奮當中是那當然我也不例外啦是是"},{"start":10889.083,"end":10908.222,"text":"我今天主要來跟部長討論我昨天晚上第一個時間當我們確定可以前進東京的時候我就跟交通部這邊做了一個聯繫因為我知道球迷朋友從昨天晚上因為大家都很希望去幫我們的國家隊應援"},{"start":10909.403,"end":10928.323,"text":"去東京加油啦所以就我所知道機票的部分應該是相當困難因為現在本來就是屬於可能楓葉啦去日本的飛機本來就不容易機票本來就不容易買所以呢球迷朋友很多人期待是不是有機會可以有加班機啦"},{"start":10929.414,"end":10954.559,"text":"那所以呢我今天在立法院有特別昨天我就先聯繫交通部希望說今天早上可否跟我們的國行做一些聯絡讓我們的國行清查一下可不可能透過加班機的方式或者在現有的班次裡面用這個大型的飛機對用這個方式來增加那個載客量部長不知道早上"},{"start":10955.851,"end":10980.098,"text":"部裡面的同仁有沒有跟你聯繫這個事情?報告委員昨天晚上我們贏了之後要前往東京所以昨天的班機的訂票率還沒開始提升但今天開始我們看到訂票率一直在提升就是往東京的班機的訂票率一直在提升所以我們也是馬上請我們的國航大家開始去思考怎麼樣增加供給量"},{"start":10980.718,"end":11004.673,"text":"包括增加航班是一種方法或者是換大飛機讓它載客的數字可以再更增加這個部分交通部會來努力因為看到國人非常開心大家真的很積極想要到東京去幫我們的國家隊加油是是是那所以因為我很清楚知道這個第一個要先透過國航有飛機這是第一個前提嘛第二個就是說可能交通部也要趕快跟日方做聯繫因為飛機去"},{"start":11007.535,"end":11024.691,"text":"不是隨便開著就進去嗎他還要跟日方的機場對跟他們機場會做聯繫另外日航的部分也可以提供協助沒有錯就是其他公司如果非國航的他願意來增加航班我方也應該要來積極來協助他們增加航班因為這個是"},{"start":11026.312,"end":11050.421,"text":"大家都很高興的事情所以我想我們應該預先可以準備到有這樣的事情這個是舉國歡騰而且不分藍綠講到棒球我想大家就忘了他自己是國民黨還是民進黨大家都會全力來支持所以你看趙偉一直點頭昨天委員交代之後今天交通部早上就開始在聯繫這件事民航局也馬上在聯繫這件事"},{"start":11051.141,"end":11076.024,"text":"部長所以你可不可以隨時請部裡面的同仁跟我報告一下進度這個沒問題因為到底要增加因為我們必須快速的讓球迷知道這件事情到底有沒有可能增加增加的時間是在因為我昨天也提過大概球迷需求的時間大概禮拜二、禮拜三、禮拜四、禮拜五這幾天大概都是球迷陸續會到會往東京的時間所以禮拜二、禮拜三、禮拜四、禮拜五"},{"start":11077.445,"end":11092.201,"text":"盡量來協調可不可以增加那因為我們訊息需要讓大家知道所以這個你可以在社群媒體上看到每一個人都在敲碗說可不可以增加班機這個事情那我也會請教育部來幫忙就是說到底這個"},{"start":11095.223,"end":11118.351,"text":"門票的部分可不可以跟日方有一個協調跟主辦單位有一個協調可不可以讓這個門票的購買的資訊能夠讓大家更清楚這個因為教育部是主管這個棒球協會是教育部的單位是這個部分我也會請他來幫忙所以但是交通要先有機票然後再有門票才可以這個成行"},{"start":11118.971,"end":11120.413,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪"},{"start":11137.614,"end":11153.044,"text":"後面球迷會陸續開始會過去所以這個希望國家把它當成一個大事這個是藍綠都支持的事情大家全力來把這件事情做好好不好好那另外就是說這個我請教一下署長"},{"start":11154.325,"end":11180.512,"text":"組長那個我們每一年本席都會配合市政府市政府有提了一些我們觀光的一些這個補助的計畫就是通觀光署辦理這個區域旅遊品牌補助計畫那這個每一年本席都會配合市政府來爭取市政府所提這個計畫所以我們很多像鐵戰山我們分年一段一段把它做好那也持續了大概也我看6年的計畫有了"},{"start":11182.552,"end":11209.89,"text":"每年都有補助那本席會發現像今年這個進度普遍都很慢那慢的原因到底是地方政府他出了什麼問題還是他計畫本身當時在寫的時候寫的並不夠好或者不夠詳細導致工程的進度都會拖啦那過去可能問題比較沒有但是我看最近就是開始會出現這個問題所以我也藉這個機會希望觀光署能夠督促啦就我們給地方政府錢"},{"start":11210.691,"end":11212.492,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":11227.262,"end":11242.392,"text":"中央可以協助的,那我們就協助,這樣不可以。這是小事啦,但是我是覺得不能進度慢嘛,因為明年我們又有新的想法要來做了,好不好,這個地方政府都要把它督促好。是,是,謝謝委員。好,謝謝蔡委員。接下來有請游浩委員發言。"},{"start":11261.724,"end":11262.91,"text":"謝謝召委,有請部長。好,陳部長。"},{"start":11271.588,"end":11292.59,"text":"謝謝部長那延續了剛才不管是我們的林明哲召委、黃健豪委員包括李坤哲委員還有蔡啟展委員有提到目前的話國內這個觀光困境、產業發展的困境也包含著就包括今天討論的部分的提案那這個部分都是希望能夠來振興觀光的產業那在"},{"start":11293.951,"end":11322.321,"text":"對觀光好的一個政策或建議啊那其實是不分藍綠啊過去國民黨也曾經執政那所以國民黨智庫還有在上禮拜四召開一個座談會那有提到了許多很好的一個建議包括不僅是上面的五項的一個挑戰的建議甚至有包括是這個就是能夠讓入客那能夠如何能夠再來重新振興畢竟現在來台的人數畢竟確實是需要再做努力啊那"},{"start":11323.021,"end":11335.297,"text":"本期這邊有一個智庫的時候的一個座談會的一個建議、建言書那我就想說直接就給部長因為想說你防忙之餘也能夠看一下這些國民黨智庫的建議沒問題謝謝委員"},{"start":11347.076,"end":11370.503,"text":"好,那接著我們再看今天的這個議題就是在偽造車牌還有包括這個今天所討論的這個重中之重那我們看到一個圖表那這個大家可能都知道這個故事這是蒙面加飛貓的故事那在偽造或是在蒙面他有時候他可能做壞事"},{"start":11371.403,"end":11379.371,"text":"他可能帶動更多的壞事或是有這個示範效果他還在逃跑的其實就是我們的人民跟百姓那我們看下一頁"},{"start":11380.796,"end":11407.501,"text":"那所以說某一面就是不想讓大家知道那就是有些這個偽造、變造車牌他這個也是不想讓人家知道他同時他影響的也是就是可能是某一個車牌車主他是一個合理合法的一個駕駛人他的車牌那本席在這裡還是重申也強調不管是剛才許多委員有提到的一個修正案那包括是末路以及包括提高罰則甚至這樣子是等同於是一個危險駕駛的一個狀況那他"},{"start":11410.302,"end":11426.524,"text":"甚至在最高罰則其實甚至3萬到9萬的這種競輸都是被一個考慮的一個範圍那相信行政院的版本到時候提出那也參考國民黨委員其實許多委員不分藍綠都有提出的道路狀況管理條例的處罰那還是要建議因為"},{"start":11427.265,"end":11451.235,"text":"有幾位啦,就是說探險的行李有人走啦,太刀的行李沒人走。那我們要如何從源頭來去遏止它這個許多偽造車牌或是使用這個偽造車牌的這個動機,包括讓他們覺得說這是廖警的行李,所以說這個部分要讓這個消動部一定要在這個修法的部分來保護我們這個未來這個偽造車牌能夠去降低。"},{"start":11451.855,"end":11471.745,"text":"那同樣的剛才在質詢的時候提到如果說今天來講通知那個速發部的話如果說網路上下架的這種速度的話大概多少時間內可以完成我們是每天都會在網路上巡查巡查之後馬上就會移送那移送之後的速度是不是我請局長多少一天之內可以"},{"start":11472.365,"end":11497.496,"text":"跟委員報告因為他大概還是要查緝不過就是說像這一個網購平台的部分像這一個相關的這個Yahoo這個采賣的相關的一些這個網購平台的部分其實已經都下架了現在比較難的大概就是說一些比如說是自己的臉書LINE的那些部分的話因為大概我們透過這一個我們自己每天巡查以後"},{"start":11497.916,"end":11512.657,"text":"其實在移送給這一個速發部然後也請相關的單位協助下架那這個部分的話像我們現在大概已經移了500多件那下架了41件局長那個我直接回覆這個我的疑問"},{"start":11513.638,"end":11542.219,"text":"就是說其實訴發部他要通知各種的平台他下架的話他要請他們喝咖啡或是直接跟他們通知那是在一天內、一週內還是一個月內還是在半天內還是即通知即下架那我覺得這個部分的話交通部需要跟訴發部溝通因為在網路上面在下一頁甚至還在就與新知大家能夠來大家告訴大家哪裡買這個假車牌所以這個本期在這裡還是要建議跟部的平行聯繫是非常的重要好"},{"start":11542.999,"end":11563.604,"text":"跟蘇法部合作。謝謝。那最後本席在針對發展觀光條例70之二的部分,那還是要強調一下,今天許多,因為剛才在提案說明的時候有看到部長其實講到救國團、講到青年活動中心,他也一直在點頭表示其實跟救國團跟青年活動中心其實一直都可能都有參加許多的活動,或是都有連結。參加過。"},{"start":11564.604,"end":11578.44,"text":"對,那所以說這個剛才部長也提到說能夠給予說這個部分有一些寬容寬限因為他們畢竟是要轉型成合法的部分那過去他們在疫情期間也都配合了政府政策在做這個防疫旅館"},{"start":11579.461,"end":11597.956,"text":"還我相信不管是救國團或是包括國際英雄館或是甚至這個勞工運動中心還青年活動中心其實他們在那段時間疫情他們也都在佩服政府政策他們那時候也是放下了手上那時候在申請轉型的這個過程那也是不斷地在做努力"},{"start":11598.516,"end":11616.173,"text":"那本期還是請這個部長還跟署長還能夠在這一案的部分還給他們一個期間因為輔導轉型的話其實他也要有成效因為過去的話他們並不是衝突衝擊著原本的旅宿業者他們是一直並行並存了幾十年"},{"start":11616.826,"end":11631.582,"text":"那而現在來講像國軍英雄館他也會因為這樣子他才評估要不要熄燈但是這是大家所不樂見的他們還是有他們的意義跟他們的族群存在那如何能夠在輔導轉型的部分能夠拿出成績以及在"},{"start":11632.082,"end":11652.251,"text":"他們過去在防疫期間的這個也算是防疫有功配合政府政策我們現在給他們一些空間緩衝就像魯明哲照有剛才所提出的數據一樣那是不是能夠來配合讓他們盡快來輔導成因為他們很多案子還在申請中這時候給他們斷頭的時候那其實傷的都是這些所有員工家庭的生計啊"},{"start":11653.923,"end":11669.014,"text":"報告委員還在申請中的就是還在努力當中的這些案子我們會盡量來輔導他那對於這個我們的期限如果到了之後還需要短暫的這個寬限期的話這個部分我們跟署這邊來協調一下看要怎麼樣去輔導這些業者"},{"start":11669.955,"end":11696.994,"text":"所以說可以趕快一些寬限的期間嗎?這個部分我們還要再討論希望說能夠用最短的速度啦大家不要再去去做這個時間上的調整但是我們用最短的時間能夠來協助但是我坦白講就是在這次的提案的部分還是希望給他們一個合理的一個緩衝期那因為這個部分法不修那他們沒有這個緩衝期那所以說今天他牽扯是很大包括那時候配合防疫我是覺得如果可以的話"},{"start":11697.674,"end":11718.925,"text":"部內跟署內應該要積極的來協助?如果他現在已經在這個申請的過程我們希望能夠在明年底明年底之前看可不可以全部把他們輔導到合法那我們就在這緩衝期內盡量給他們一個輔導到因為這個修法必須要給他們一個空間那就有在這個交通部公關署這邊盡量來協助他們謝謝"},{"start":11724.155,"end":11728.478,"text":"好 謝謝有委員接下來有請何新淳委員發言謝謝盧昭偉主席我們是不是請部長好陳部長還有公路局跟警政署警政署今天是來陳局長李副署長副署長好部長好局長好來副署長好"},{"start":11750.326,"end":11766.702,"text":"謝謝部長我想今天很多委員跟本席一樣都在關心這個假車牌的問題那假車牌媒體報導也很多那我們也相信我們警政署也跟各地的警察同仁們也很用心用力的在打擊在抓但是防不勝防剛剛有委員在講即使到現在網路上都還看得到在販賣假車牌"},{"start":11774.83,"end":11804.058,"text":"那我現在就要請教我們要打擊假車牌當然修法是我們一定要做的但是上游要防堵下游要查緝那源頭的打這個假車牌查假車牌是第一步對不對這個我想你部長也同意那要怎麼查假車牌以公務局給我們的一個統計數字今天很多委員都提到那現在呢在針對網路銷售的這個部分要怎麼阻絕第一個我提"},{"start":11804.838,"end":11816.142,"text":"我看到公路局給我們一個資料10月17號建立一個所謂的網路平台的巡查程式是嗎?局長?好,那我們對,10月17號開始這個網路的平台的查詢程式的查貨並通知業者下架512件還沒請到上議院那這個512件裡面那為什麼到現在連有委員跟其他委員跟我都在網路上還看得到"},{"start":11834.148,"end":11856.218,"text":"是網路平台不配合呢?下架不夠快嗎?包括數位發展部都說有跟其他這些社群網路平台呢有建立一個通報下架的窗口那包括Yahoo等等的這個網購的平台也都說願意配合但是速發部那邊給我們的資料是下架41件一個下架512件一個下架41件部長這個數字你滿意嗎?"},{"start":11862.338,"end":11877.557,"text":"五百一十二件是我們通知啦通知而已還沒有下架嘛對不對那速發部那邊是實際有下架的是41件但你看喔光是這兩個數字就告訴我們什麼這下架的效率有夠慢"},{"start":11878.618,"end":11906.439,"text":"你已經巡查到了你通知業者要下架512件你通知了那速發部呢負責去溝通建立的通報下架窗口可是已到目前為止我看到的是41件512件裡面只有41件下架那難怪我們委員先在國人在這個平台上面看到可以買這個或甚至能客製化偽造的車牌比比皆是啊"},{"start":11907.932,"end":11924.893,"text":"部長你認為這該怎麼辦?黃委員我覺得這個數字上確實有落差但是網購的部分都已經下架了那現在比較麻煩的是他個人的臉書或者是他的LINE的群組的部分這個部分是還沒有處理好那這個部分應該要我們會跟訴發部這邊也來協調看一下怎麼樣加強所以你要怎麼辦?"},{"start":11929.139,"end":11953.421,"text":"我認為警政署可能也有拜託一起啦警政署也有一個通報下架的窗口嘛那至於呢這個速發部跟警政署跟我們交通部拜託你們跨部會去這不是只有喝咖啡聊天的事情而已這是非常要審慎的去面對而且要積極的查處跟解決問題啊不然的話你看這數字落差這麼大"},{"start":11954.522,"end":11975.199,"text":"好部長這是第一個第二個我要跟你講一件事我們要查假車牌之前要先比對比對它是真還是假那就是什麼建立資料庫以你們現在有建立的資料庫有兩件事一個是公務局說建立一個疑似偽造號牌的揮名單揮名單那目前在這個揮名單裡面偽變造、吊銷、註銷會繳回等等是不是171筆"},{"start":11985.196,"end":12009.81,"text":"應該不只啦。灰名單是171筆。各位報告。來,我現在就是要跟你探討這一件事嘛。你所謂的疑似偽造號牌灰名單,現在的171筆,這個到底包含什麼東西嗎?因為你說要交由警察機關或停管機關要合作,要把這個灰名單提供給警政單位,就是警政署,來建立所謂的AI巡防系統。"},{"start":12010.61,"end":12026.271,"text":"各位網友我們現在所有的就是車牌被吊扣、吊銷、註銷因為代表就是說他車子不能再用了所以他比較有機會說他可能會去使用假車牌所以這個吊註銷的這個大概幾十萬筆的資料全部都有給警察機關"},{"start":12028.033,"end":12051.015,"text":"另外171筆是民眾就是說因為他已經來就是說他來報案申訴說我的車牌已經被偽造了所以這個還有另外已經被偽造的171筆那為什麼叫回名單是因為你還沒有辦法證實他到底是不是偽造車牌還是所以像檢察機關其實他們就是說我們把所有的這個資料都已經在他們的AI的資料庫系統所以像檢察機關現在辨別非常快"},{"start":12051.758,"end":12058.145,"text":"那我可以請教嗎那在公路局像體系下所謂的AI巡防系統圖的這個會名單裡面可能會巡查到的除了ETEC還有哪些系統可以"},{"start":12064.682,"end":12090.058,"text":"現在其實包括就是說我們警察機關還有監理機關還有這個地方的停管機關大概就是說三個機關合作所以中央跟地方都有達成共識三個機關聯罰對路上行走的或是停車的大概就是說那個資料庫裡面都有這個可能因為你的車牌已經被吊註銷不能所以你不可能在路上還會再行駛嘛所以他一查出來的話就有可能這個車牌"},{"start":12090.758,"end":12091.399,"text":"副處長知道嗎?AI巡防系統"},{"start":12110.339,"end":12128.412,"text":"我們本來就現在就有在建置警察的補助系統現在就有在建置那交通部給我們的資料我們會輸入進去輸入進去以後我們警方在巡邏的時候透過那個系統如果發現是偽變造車牌就會攔查起地"},{"start":12128.939,"end":12149.61,"text":"那現在各地各地的這個警察局統統都有這個巡防系統是全國一致還是給地方政府市警局﹖可能就在我們警方的設備裡面在警方全國的設備裡面那只是每年編的預算是要來更新升級我們的AI巡防系統嗎"},{"start":12152.113,"end":12177.788,"text":"因為目前那個我剛剛在那個報告裡面的那個系統裡面是現在是有六都裡面有幾個幾部的車裝置在裡面那這個對嘛這個系統部署長你講出真相了那再來明年不是全國都有也不是你剛剛回答我的是在你的警政署的巡防系統裡面耶目前是沒有"},{"start":12178.148,"end":12183.736,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":12198.396,"end":12203.259,"text":"副所長你要先問清楚再來回答我啦因為我看到有這筆預算嘛所以你們要建立這個AI巡防系統不是"},{"start":12216.266,"end":12232.878,"text":"以現有的系統嘛而是你們另外在建制我要跟他說它比較數位化、科技化現代版的一個AI巡防系統以六都才在試辦而且呢全國以六都來講有這個AI巡防系統的警車根本不到10%嘛那你這一筆預算執行下去之後你認為幾年內要建制到"},{"start":12242.469,"end":12245.931,"text":"百分之百還是你原來的KPI就沒有達到百分之百因為那個有一個中長期計劃啦詳細的計劃我不是很清楚分三年來來來你事後給我這個書面報告我要知道你要建制的期程你即將要花多少預算我什麼時候可以國人可以預期說我可以建立這個全台灣的一個AI巡防的一個聯防系統"},{"start":12271.824,"end":12296.827,"text":"為什麼這個重要這個要搭配剛剛我問交通部不僅僅是公路局的一個監理系統還有地方政府的停管系統還有你警政署自己的AI聯防系統這樣子加起來才能夠讓這一個假車牌也好偽造車牌也好我們才能夠真正的去判讀真假也才能夠真正做到百分之百的防堵嘛"},{"start":12298.335,"end":12305.081,"text":"這個是我們的用意,我希望預算編下去,極快下去,要真的做,要再做,這就是我想說的,要強化數據資料庫,要加速查緝量能嘛,那也才能達到什麼,我們現在不是只有修法,修法當然一定要修,我之前有提版本要修刑法、修道教條例,包括我們願意等願版,"},{"start":12321.135,"end":12345.346,"text":"但是呢要抓得到才能夠罰得到也才能遏止啊執行面也很重要啊是不是部長你同意吧是非常同意委員的說法所以我拜託是不是在接下來用最快的時間最快的速度跟警政署內政部警政署跟我們地方政府還有呢跟相關包括數位發展部很重要我們從源頭到"},{"start":12348.147,"end":12360.878,"text":"後端的查緝到剛剛說的利用數位化、科技化的一個聯防系統這個每一個事情都很重要都要做到修法當然我們支持好不好是,好,謝謝委員畫布會的聯防我們會來努力,謝謝好,謝謝何委員接下來有請陳雪生委員發言"},{"start":12377.629,"end":12381.194,"text":"好,謝謝主席。是不是請交通部陳部長。陳部長。部長早。委員好。馬祖大橋的進度如何?"},{"start":12395.985,"end":12424.483,"text":"目前還沒有送到我們部裡面還沒有什麼行政院還沒有回到我們這邊我有去再問行政院的進度因為上次跟委員報告就是說國發會的這個整個的規劃評估報告已經送到行政院送到秘書長那邊那最新的進度剛剛我有再問一下院裡面大概院這邊的話是把這個國發會的這個評估報告把它就是說先就是存掉"},{"start":12425.043,"end":12451.838,"text":"局長你問院裡的誰?你問院裡面的誰?我問那個交還處的處長交還處的處長他怎麼說?是把這個國發會的評估報告把他這個紋存那基本上就是說並沒有再把他們的意見這個要求我們交通部去做相關的一個回應他已經要求8次、10次、20次啦還要求什麼?還要求什麼?"},{"start":12455.595,"end":12465.918,"text":"我打電話給公民秘書長公民秘書長他說不知道沒看到這案子不是說到許內閣秘書長那裡再分判分判下去嗎"},{"start":12467.13,"end":12486.241,"text":"那你們要去問啦,你們如果連問都不問,我每個禮拜最近讀。報告委員,局長剛剛的回答就是他有問了。部長,我年齡有點大了齁,時間很短,不夠用齁,拜託一下好不好。部長你不是說幫我問嗎?有一天回來不是跟總統要見面?我們其實都有問。總統有沒有說什麼?"},{"start":12489.982,"end":12505.319,"text":"我沒有跟總統問這件事,有跟院問這件事啦,那目前就是在祕書長那邊嘛。拖嘛,一直在拖啊。到底做還是不做?乾脆一點嘛,是不是?他沒有給我們一件證。"},{"start":12508.974,"end":12536.505,"text":"也跟委員報告因為院沒有再給我們新的這個意見的話基本上其實回到112年的你每個禮拜給我回報一次好不好我每個禮拜追追到下一次總主席我還會問好不好反正部長你有來我都會問啊我不問不行啊好不好我不曉得我還能活多久啊拜託了好不好你很年輕欸我們兩個年齡不一樣好不好"},{"start":12539.286,"end":12559.74,"text":"那我們在開車啊開車碰到人行道我們要停下來嘛行人在那邊打電話在那邊聊天那你看怎麼樣行人過馬路也應該要專心過馬路要遵守那就嘴巴講一講是不是"},{"start":12561.891,"end":12575.658,"text":"應該...應該如果是看...局長你有機會你修個...修個什麼行人穿越法吧?行人穿越不要那個嗎?行人在...我們...我們要走不停...沒有錯...我就是看到...行人我當然要禮讓嘛...我要等嘛...我不能..."},{"start":12577.517,"end":12590.565,"text":"紅燈好不容易等到綠燈等到一個綠燈以後行人在那邊拖拖拉拉的那邊來這邊去我們車子不要開啦行人的部分也有罰則行人有罰則嗎罰500塊說明一下跟我們報告在應該是78條它裡面如果說行人在穿越馬路的時候吸吸這些相關的部分是罰500元"},{"start":12601.628,"end":12630.663,"text":"我們尊重行人啦,開車的人當然我們尊重他嘛前幾天你看前面一個公車後面一個公車追撞一下就死亡了好不好這都是問題啦好我現在接著要問那個高雄馬祖航線高雄馬祖航線誰關心啊?我看國民黨裡面只有我一個關心民進黨只有一個誰?許智傑許智傑委員正好在下面許委員謝謝你啦"},{"start":12631.786,"end":12659.116,"text":"那天你假動你沒有到馬祖來黃牛了好不好不過下次希望好不好希望有機會來早上我找了我早上開了一個會有品公司的問題最嚴重那現在有品公司問題解決了他的保險因為一到三月份從現在到三月份他會透過另外一個方式來保險那四月份跟那個美國的債保公司還要再簽約會把這個納進去"},{"start":12661.451,"end":12685.97,"text":"我油品公司全國各縣市全部都是中油的,怎麼馬祖是我們馬祖縣政府代管呢?莫名其妙嘛。好,他現在也投降了。保險的問題解決了。車子、油罐車,我說我要新的。我前面跟他講要舊的,他現在沒辦法了,我說我要新的。他說舊的馬上運來,11月份就要運過去了,他速度比我快了。"},{"start":12687.555,"end":12713.615,"text":"還有油罐車也過去11月底也過去人員訓練大概已經訓練完成了四個人訓練完成了那現在剩下的是油料都完成以後我前天打電話給昨天打電話給中華航空公司謝董事長他說第一個油料的問題如果能夠完成第二個降落費"},{"start":12715.685,"end":12725.65,"text":"機場降頭費如果能夠減免的話,我也打電話給何局長,何局長今天沒來。如果降頭費能夠減免的話,他說固定航線他願意飛。"},{"start":12727.301,"end":12750.79,"text":"但是票價原來50個、70個嘛對不對?你油料是滿的話,那只要油料是滿的話70個。他如果可以油料問題解決可以再到70個。這個部長知道嘛。好啦那現在新聞媒體在報導啊,我們馬祖的新聞很熱門啊。現在不是打詐嗎跟打騙嗎?誰騙你知道嗎?我跟縣長變成騙子了現在。這問題很嚴重啦,我想把部長應該也加一個進來嘛。對不對?"},{"start":12757.22,"end":12783.54,"text":"打騙他說11月6號飛時班飛完時班呢公共署不知道又給了幾個錢我們現在最少飛到元旦假期飛到元旦元旦就停掉你律師局元旦就停掉嘛最少我剛才說最少我們希望他的運量可以真的起來你講最多我不要講最少你不要講最少11月6號你看風風光光的這是馬祖"},{"start":12785.519,"end":12790.967,"text":"內內部長沒有去?有啊,我在裡面部長你覺得這個風風光光的首航起飛,飛完以後"},{"start":12799.226,"end":12825.048,"text":"然後元旦就把他停掉你心裡面有什麼感想沒有,報告委員如果我們的運量跟那個那個大家很願意去搭乘的話旅客宿夠的話這個沒問題啦就可以一直飛下去啦就可以一直飛下去你看喔一個縣政府我們不希望一直用補貼我們希望它真正運量可以起來那這個部分我們一起來努力一個縣政府一個交通部一個立委跟老百姓講的話"},{"start":12826.87,"end":12839.37,"text":"人家如果當我們在放屁的話你說說看你說說看我們飛這個高雄馬祖航線只是飛兩個月飛起來跟紙做的滑翔機一樣飛起來好玩的"},{"start":12840.404,"end":12857.678,"text":"不是這樣嘛 是不是這政策欸當時一開始的時候那個時候應該就對外講是時斑嘛那我們也讓它延長可以至少到元旦假期那我們這段時間也在努力希望跟高雄的那邊的觀光業者大家一起來合作去找客源有啊 成居賣市場"},{"start":12859.419,"end":12886.531,"text":"將來也會幫忙,他說他會有配套。那我們希望這個可以讓他運量上來之後一直延續下去,這個很好。他這個錢不是什麼縣政府、高雄市政府、觀光署去給錢,沒道理嘛。交通的便利、行政安全、交通部本來就要負起主要責任嘛。是不是?怎麼扯到縣政府勒?哪一個?你看那個臺北市油管那個民航油管那個松山機場嗎?桃園市政府油管那個桃園機場嗎?沒有嘛。"},{"start":12888.343,"end":12910.217,"text":"這廉價限制怎麼會扯進去管這個事情呢?這行政便利的問題啊。這樣好不好?元貸嘛,包機至少嘛。但是你給我承諾,不能停。因為油的問題,油品公司要解決了。中油要解決了。油罐車啊、訓練啊、車輛啊、保險啊,全部都解決了。"},{"start":12915.322,"end":12936.456,"text":"那謝董也跟我講,如果這個油料的問題能夠解決,還有降落費能夠減免,他願意飛,他也願意了,那剩下就交通部啦,不是啊?你跟我講...如果華航或華信可以不用補貼的方式願意飛那當然很好啊但是他油料要解決啊"},{"start":12937.524,"end":12966.338,"text":"油料不是委員剛剛說您已經有努力現在中油也不是我管的你是中央政府我這裡是立法院我管不了他們是不是我沒有行政權油料我們來跟他們行政權是你們你們要去主動去溝通怎麼是我在那邊我不講話就沒事我一講話就來了你看我今天上午主持一個會議我有點生氣了火爆三丈全部都OK了"},{"start":12967.554,"end":12992.529,"text":"那我不出面的話全部都躲起來了怎麼這樣子勒?我們政府做事情不是這樣子吧?是不是?部長,11月6號包機起飛高雄到馬祖航線元旦我不管,你不管,因為你公務很忙啦底下民航局不管,公安署不管,不就停擺啦擺明就是擺爛啊是不是?然後我們都被打成詐騙集團"},{"start":12994.465,"end":13017.175,"text":"我們是最大宗的,不好吧?交通部會幹這種事嗎?你說,你當個部長。我們來努力讓它持續飛下去。不是努力啊,這一定要做的嘛,還努力。我們現在正在努力齁,跟旅行業者大家一起合作攬客,我們希望多一些客人,那未來當然有商機的時候,航空公司必然會一直飛。現然也跟參謀總長講了,跟參謀總長沒東西要講了。"},{"start":13021.277,"end":13039.609,"text":"他們部隊裡面,將來也鼓勵阿兵哥坐飛機。如果是部隊也可以達成而且有優惠的話,其實這個是蠻好的。是是是。欸?召委你先坐下來沒關係啊,不要急。部長你答應我好不好?不要停。"},{"start":13041.776,"end":13067.317,"text":"我很希望他可以持續飛下去我後面還有許智傑委員欸你走著瞧好了我很希望他持續飛下去許智傑委員還會問你喔我那天前幾天去高雄連其邁市長都有在跟我講這件事表示高雄也很在乎這個航線那我們也很希望他能夠持續飛下去那個其邁是現任市長嘛下一任許智傑委員虎視眈眈的許智傑委員你要努力一下我下去沒關係好不好我招架兩分鐘沒關係剩下你要幫我講講話"},{"start":13070.529,"end":13097.608,"text":"因為藍綠都幫忙一下嘛這個我們一起來努力部長很難看啦元旦如果真的沒飛很難看啦有啦一定會飛到元旦不只是我難看縣政府難看你也很難看什麼至少什麼至少一定要飛下去好不好對啊我們現在努力讓他一直飛下去又努力不努力不行我們現在沒有在努力嗎我努力那麼久了他們還說我騙委員在努力我們也在努力"},{"start":13098.991,"end":13128.373,"text":"一起努力一定不能停好不好不然你講個話嘛一定不要停你講個話這句話你都不敢講我來當部長好了是不是我們努力讓他一直飛下去啦我們現在真的一直在想辦法那我永遠一直在努力當中這件事情非做不可我跟你講下台如果不是下台我不是想對不起我不是想下台如果元旦以後真的停掉了"},{"start":13129.642,"end":13156.858,"text":"我辭立委你辭部長好不好我立委辭掉你部長辭掉我們一起打個賭一起幹這件事情我們兩個一起幹好不好我把立委辭掉啊我們一起努力啦又一起努力一定要完成好不好送你五個字一定要完成固定航線好不好稍微對不起啊又請你坐下你可以站起來了我先下去"},{"start":13158.462,"end":13168.968,"text":"那請許智傑先生上台講話。好,謝謝。好,謝謝陳委員。接下來有請許智傑委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我們還是請部長,不辛苦。"},{"start":13192.014,"end":13218.451,"text":"部長辛苦 委員好其實當學生兄講的也不是沒有道理我知道部長也很努力那我們要知道問題出在哪裡其實馬祖航空從一開始高碼這一條線坦白講我們也爭取了很久當銀行局說可以飛的時候其實我真的很高興我們真的爭取很久終於成功了"},{"start":13220.233,"end":13249.62,"text":"但是我後來才知道說我以為是一直飛下去是固定航班他是包機對結果後來說飛了十班禮後不是高雄的十班禮啦十班飛機啦十班飛機飛了以後呢啊就停了所以其實我們做政務官或者是行政官員在思考的點就是說我這一趟去是什麼"},{"start":13250.714,"end":13266.237,"text":"目的會有多久應該要跟人民講清楚如果你一開始就說我們只飛十班後續我們要看狀況評估這樣子人民也許"},{"start":13267.632,"end":13292.039,"text":"會覺得說那我們趕快一起努力,看有沒有辦法時班有再增加。當時其實有講清楚啦,就是時班的包機這樣。但是齁,那個一開始宣傳的時候齁,那個要宣傳在前面。你了解我意思嗎?時班要宣傳在前面,否則飛機飛在前面,然後後面才講時班。那人民會覺得說,那個有落差。"},{"start":13293.467,"end":13295.269,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":13306.991,"end":13334.764,"text":"到底後面有沒有什麼規劃?是,委員您那天質詢完之後跟陳雪生委員也有特別質詢這個問題所以我拜託觀光署我們再繼續加碼然後讓他至少要到元旦假期元旦,至少到元旦好啦好啦,那個這個就請交通部、觀光署繼續努力啦因為我那一天也看到馬祖縣政府他們一開始第一個月他們出了500觀光署出了100嘛"},{"start":13335.606,"end":13358.204,"text":"那我本來想說公共署再撐個200他們再多撐兩個月應該沒問題所以我那時候覺得公共署應該沒問題有這麼做那後來發現馬祖先這麼說我們自己準備一個月那就很傷腦筋那當然就是說我們現在去思考馬祖高碼這條線最大的問題要克服的困難"},{"start":13359.085,"end":13386.394,"text":"不是每一次的補助而是剛才部長有提到固定航班那固定航班其實最大的問題是油品的問題部長應該可以去中油把馬祖航空因為馬祖有個叫馬祖油品啦他們自己獨立的公司啦那馬祖油品你要叫中油去接中油不願不想去接你馬祖的你現在都了結啦"},{"start":13387.239,"end":13409.076,"text":"你馬祖最了不起,要叫我去接動員,我中邮不來啦但是呢,其實我講一個最極端的就是說馬祖航空就宣布公司結束,假設是這樣那馬祖的油,誰要負責還是要保持馬祖有一些油,應該是中油"},{"start":13410.222,"end":13429.979,"text":"所以我覺得可能要拜託部長跟經濟部跟中友去溝通啦就是說這類是最根本解決的問題這個解決以後我們才有機會固定航班這是第一個問題那第二個問題剛剛學生也提到了軍中軍中的飛機飛回來那個也要協調啦你們都自己背"},{"start":13433.698,"end":13441.737,"text":"沒有要坐飛機當然你就沒來人數就沒夠所以軍中我們有很多的將士兵"},{"start":13442.674,"end":13466.8,"text":"他們回來南部其實不只是高雄左沿你可以把小港機場、高雄機場要想像成南高屏這樣一起思考我想南高屏都會來當然就是說它基本上高雄機場的功能絕對不是處理高雄的人的問題所以這兩個問題我是覺得部長可以花一點心思請大家去溝通這兩個問題解決"},{"start":13469.24,"end":13497.714,"text":"這個問題大概就解決啦但是什麼時候解決我現在我剛剛學生中提到我又不是部長我也不能講什麼時候可以解決那要拜託部長這兩個方向我們會盡量想辦法讓他的運量能夠起來運量起來其實固定航班那就不行其實我剛講這兩個問題你想辦法去解決馬祖問題高碼問題大概就解決了是是好所以希望說部長可以再多努力一下好那另外呢最近我們高雄機場發生了那個計程車排班"},{"start":13499.57,"end":13519.417,"text":"說去要檢查那個什麼五等親以上那個已經拿掉了嘛 對不對有什麼現行法令除了機構牌方計程車可與機場內營運載客外其計程車T開頭的包含多元計程車等只能接送駕駛員配偶及五等親內的家屬我如果是我朋友載我去這樣就不行了"},{"start":13524.537,"end":13547.253,"text":"那是針對多元計程車的部分是的機場其實從民國70幾年開始就有這個排班的機制我知道從過去到現在一直都有那幾十年的時間其實我一直都在想解決的方法啦機場這個問題其實我們高雄最近也炒得很熱那我是接力部長有兩個方向部長可以去思考一個就是如何讓去的人民都坐得到車我要坐得到車你不管給我什麼車嘛我坐得到嘛"},{"start":13553.409,"end":13570.796,"text":"他們現在習慣叫Uber好像一叫就來他們大概可以保證他們坐得到所以Uber不能來嘛那多元計程車、排班計程車如何保證讓人民坐得到車這是第一個那第二個為什麼排班計程車會不夠或不多我會說那些有的在基地有樓車齊齊跟小工他會用這個、會用那個"},{"start":13580.827,"end":13583.313,"text":"二、佩珈菇等18人、 二、佩直道等18人。"},{"start":13586.274,"end":13608.908,"text":"他現在雖然有加50塊的那個那個就是在機場搭正在50元那但是呢這一個50元如果再加上七八十元一百不到一百五十塊那輸去一定會怎麼賺會怎麼賣啦所以要如何去保障就是排班計程車它有一定的啊比方說擺擺擺擺兩點鐘還要再開一座報啊還要又回來擺對"},{"start":13613.971,"end":13638.647,"text":"好,所以大概就這兩個角度。我也希望說機長、那個部長跟我們的公務局、民航局思考一下。就是說我排班計程車,假設啦,你去餐廳有一個低銷對吧?我低銷就是我在機場坐排班計程車,當然人家排了那麼久,你坐不到200塊好像很不好意思啦。比如說你有個低銷,"},{"start":13640.263,"end":13661.059,"text":"阿你加50歸加50、低銷歸低銷,那也許反正我的低銷,假設低銷200啦,我是假設你們再去評估啦,我去即使你不管再到我就是差不多200塊的低銷,也許我排辦經理人會覺得說我這樣去排有計單,所以要如何讓排辦經理人車覺得他去排,"},{"start":13662.09,"end":13663.832,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":13684.531,"end":13706.978,"text":"兩邊顧及啦那車的部分一定要確保夠因為當時要做排班計程車的目的就是希望說旅客到了要馬上有車可以坐所以有用排班的機制所以你可以看部長我剛提到的高雄到馬祖這一條航線如果可以繼續大概這兩個問題要去思考是機場問題人民坐得到計程車排班不說排一波貪一百個"},{"start":13709.282,"end":13724.493,"text":"阿這兩個問題去思考我想把這個問題思考一下由解方當然多少那個細節你們就去衡量一下看怎麼樣比較適當我想這個問題就有機會解決當然會很辛苦尤其是油品的問題我想"},{"start":13725.794,"end":13741.611,"text":"中友也很辛苦啦那當然也要你現在把他想起來放著比較不然他突然倒閉你還是要處理啦是是所以要怎麼樣去做一個平衡點可能拜託部長再跟經濟部再協調一下好好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝許委員接下來有請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":13756.623,"end":13760.996,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請交通部陳部長還有觀光署周署長周署長"},{"start":13769.778,"end":13796.495,"text":"委員好部長好、署長好我們先來看到觀光的部分那其實這邊要提到青年活動中心過去常常是學生社團辦理團康活動的好去處嘛然後也是很多人學生時期的回憶那我們在我們臺灣的宗教活動宗教文化活動也很盛行那民間的宮廟常常有進香的活動這些香客大樓也是這些香客還有民眾的首選在參與宗教活動的時候那"},{"start":13797.628,"end":13821.952,"text":"特定對象住宿場所一八長觀光條例第70條之二之規定有10年的緩衝期將在明年的1月21日落日也是這一次本次修法的重點之一那這邊要針對我們發展觀光條例就叫部長還有署長幾個問題今年11月3號的時候全國各地的國軍英雄館提供了住宿的服務請問部長知道原因嗎"},{"start":13824.332,"end":13848.859,"text":"是不是我請署長好不好對不起那個也是因應這個條文的這個規定啦他用地沒辦法取得旅館用地的話他沒辦法進行旅館所以這個部分他就對他們沒有辦法來申請這個登記為旅館業那部長署長你知道目前觀光署列管全國特定對象的住宿總共有幾處我們現在全宿裡面還有這個針對33處裡面在做輔導對"},{"start":13853.765,"end":13870.43,"text":"列管的部分嗎?列管的部分當時是有118處當時有118處那目前轉型的情況如何?剩下目前86處的部分大概分3個部分一個部分呢他在還是在努力中另外一個就是退場3分之1的部分退場另外一個就是還在觀望"},{"start":13871.178,"end":13889.124,"text":"是列管中的是有31處那當時根據11月份的資料統計總計118處其中是有86處還在做列管當中那全國118處特定對象住宿場所目前只有9處他們完成了登記那只有佔7.6%"},{"start":13891.505,"end":13905.944,"text":"本席不惜質疑目前我們觀光署是否有來積極協助這些業者來做轉型我們一直都在努力而且我們在定期每一季幾乎都有開會在做輔導那今年的部分是3月還特別邀集了相關單位"},{"start":13907.085,"end":13908.306,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":13926.025,"end":13950.393,"text":"就本學長解答目前還有21處的業者他們必須在1月21號才能取得旅館業的登記嘛那部長、署長如果沒有完成修法那他們這21個業者他們要怎麼來做自救按照法令規定要退場要退場是那我們剛才有看到那其實有一轉型的業者是相當多的那這邊公共署有沒有有沒有來成立專責的機構來進行輔導"},{"start":13954.202,"end":13974.45,"text":"蘇長當初我們公關署有沒有成立部長也在提到了就是有一部分還在繼續努力但是我們覺得還在繼續努力明年他們1月21號還是要有一個因為我們當初是104年嘛還是在我們希望這個10年114年內把它完成是比較好"},{"start":13975.074,"end":13991.642,"text":"是那本期這邊也要提到因為疫情的關係那有意轉型的業者他們也都是在積極的辦理當中那因為當時疫情的關係那造成嚴盪那這邊我們先來看到部長請問您知道這個這個價目表算不算是提供特定對象的住宿場所"},{"start":13993.173,"end":14018.163,"text":"這個駕木錶對看起來不一定是特定對象吧不一定是特定對象那這邊吼那本席直接就跟部長說吼這個是海軍四海一家我們來看看海軍四海一家的資料他的主管機關是海軍嘛那開始營運的時間是民國39年8月21號那他的地址是在高雄市的左營區那他的優惠對象是現役的軍人、軍爵還有農民、農眷與國防相關的人員"},{"start":14019.644,"end":14032.237,"text":"這邊部長這個場所它是否為我們觀光署列管的對象目前應該是對但是高雄市政府它屬於地方政府他們也會分工來做列管"},{"start":14033.522,"end":14054.255,"text":"署長您提到高雄市政府對他並沒有說到我們觀光署列館在裡面清分的時候是市政府裡面他沒有提報嘛所以他沒有提報那我們這個條文都已經推動10年了對對所以高雄市政府他有本身有去做分工是由那個部長請問交通部要不要來做檢討"},{"start":14056.297,"end":14070.255,"text":"這個部分我們就一直在檢討沒有什麼問題因為這個目前的列管的部分的定義是透過22個縣市政府那他有沒有來做登記他是不是縣市政府提報公司政府就表示他要退場"},{"start":14071.087,"end":14092.119,"text":"他目前並沒有退場我們目前得到的訊息是海軍司令部有表示說我們在1月21號之後他將會歇業或者是轉做其他的用途確實是這樣子所以署長您確認他明年會來做歇業嗎我們在3月開會的時候國防部也表示這樣子他沒有其他的意見"},{"start":14092.739,"end":14120.457,"text":"署長您就是最好先回去就是請相關單位提供資料我們再去跟他們了解一下我們再去跟他們了解一下是不是真的有要追查是因為本席今天會以我們這個世海一家為例是因為如果政府橋下單位可以不做旅館業登記那卻要求國軍英雄館然後還有青年活動中心他們要來做旅館業的登記那這樣子不免會讓其他單位所以是不是有雙重標準應該也是要做旅館業登記我也特別利用這個機會澄清一下譬如說"},{"start":14121.978,"end":14141.427,"text":"有些公司行號他自己提供給自己員工的他也沒收費沒有這種營業的行為我們剛才看到他確實是有收費對這要查證請署長先去做查證不確定的我們就查證我們高中市政府時間一到我們就請高中市政府要查辦"},{"start":14144.147,"end":14164.182,"text":"那這邊本席也要希望這次的修法讓有意願登記的業者我們公安署這邊也要來協助他們這部分我們會來協助那我們接下來看那個防偽車牌那本席在上個月16號在委員會當中也有針對變造車牌來向部長提出進行跨部會的"},{"start":14165.163,"end":14189.73,"text":"寫上那上週五的時候公路局有邀請我們警政署還有高工局針對防偽車牌進行討論那針對防偽的部分那本席了解到交通部比較偏向實務面那所以找了警政署來進行研議那部長知道這個會議嗎我知道他們有開這個會議是那會議的會議討論下來有初步的規劃嗎可以跟委員報告嗎"},{"start":14196.391,"end":14210.983,"text":"跟我有報告就是我們是對於就是說防偽車牌的相關的一個未來的一個設計那請警政署、公共局給我們一些意見那基本上就是說大概有初步達成明年度大概防偽功能的一個增加的一個規劃的一個共識"},{"start":14213.226,"end":14218.731,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":14239.763,"end":14256.21,"text":"報告委員我們這個提高罰則的部分目前在我們修法版本裡面有我們會提高到三萬六這個部分我們當然是朝這個方向那包含車輛沒入的部分我們也會把它加進來也就是說整體罰則都會來提高跟增加OK好謝謝部長說明以上謝謝委員好謝謝邱委員接下來有請林德福委員發言"},{"start":14274.841,"end":14298.156,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請陳部長陳部長部長你好我想立法院預算中心指出103年統計一二年八月無法追討通行會的這個案件數大約有差不多312萬件那"},{"start":14302.406,"end":14326.525,"text":"欠收的金額差不多兩千零七十七萬那主要原因就是這個偽變造的車牌或遮蔽車牌等以至於沒有辦法掌握用路人的資料此外通行會預期未繳開單者每筆差不多三百元的這個罰款那出估應該有上億元的罰款"},{"start":14328.166,"end":14336.272,"text":"那這個本席今天這個這個整個也有法案進行審查針對懸掛這個"},{"start":14341.615,"end":14368.668,"text":"撬車牌的車輛提高處罰如果大家有共識針對使用撬車牌的車輛也應該要直接沒入車輛本席也贊成部長你有沒有贊同報告委員我們目前修法的方向除了這個罰則罰金的部分增加到三萬六之外對於沒入車輛的部分我們也有把它修訂進去我認為應該要這樣子才可以杜絕才可以防患因為吼"},{"start":14369.668,"end":14387.414,"text":"偽造車牌、撬車輛的這些車輛所積欠的國道通行會預期未繳罰還者,交通部你們後續認為要怎麼處理比較好?跟委員報告目前我們是在加強就是說去跟他再去做吹頭"},{"start":14388.871,"end":14414.987,"text":"我認為 你看怎麼處理你給本席一個書面的資料好不好那個部長 是國道這個施工養護的必要為了保護施工人員的安全近年來開始使用反撞車這個避免施工人員直接遭受到車輛高速的衝撞但是根據高工局統計2023年"},{"start":14417.668,"end":14438.594,"text":"則有超過121件等於是平均三天就發生一次反撞車的事故而上週連續兩天在高速公路與快速道路都有追撞反撞車事故的發生那我請問交通部追撞反撞車的問題"},{"start":14440.359,"end":14468.849,"text":"有沒有辦法有效的控制呢?這部分那個跟委員報告這還是用戶人要專心駕駛因為仿造車它是非常明顯的一個車輛那我們現在看到就是說有一半以上它是開啟輔助駕駛就是人就沒有去注意那路況另外有一些是疲勞駕駛所以它直接就撞上去那這所有的一個那個事故的部分都有都有在做一個那個跟公警的部分來一個協調那看怎樣來做那個"},{"start":14469.509,"end":14493.463,"text":"那我請教這個運輸安全委員會是不是能夠提供給交通部改善的建立看會從調整道路養護的方法著手還是強化緩撞車的警示效果跟委員報告我們所有的每一件的那個事故都有送那個運安會來做一個那個我是希望能夠把方法提出來怎麼去杜絕怎麼緩緩好不好"},{"start":14495.084,"end":14509.813,"text":"這個還是要用路人他要注意路況才有辦法說完全杜絕那我們這部分我們只能盡量的一個防止而已盡量宣導請用路人在開車的時候不要太過依賴那個自動輔助駕駛的系統自己要專注"},{"start":14511.831,"end":14537.039,"text":"本席以觀光安全的角度來提醒陳部長兩件事一個是觀光風景區公共設施要做好維護另外一個是遊覽車的維修檢測要落實這兩件很重要因為上個禮拜阿里山某座吊橋旁的景觀台的木棧道斷裂造成一死四傷"},{"start":14539.52,"end":14555.557,"text":"出意外的不是吊橋而是旁邊的景觀台的木棧道尤其今年風災、地震、頻傳本期是希望這個著名觀光風景區的公共設施要做好基本的安全維護"},{"start":14556.798,"end":14584.849,"text":"部長你的看法呢?是,報告委員您剛所提到阿里山的那個案子齁他那個是轄管是鄉公所鄉公所他們的一個建制啦齁那當然不是在不是在觀光署的一個建制裡面但這個部分我們也會再去巡查齁我們會去巡查去要求說地方政府他們所轄管的一些觀光類的這個這個製作或者建設的話他的安全品質要顧及這個我認為很重要當然這個案子很重要因為齁你定期要去巡視"},{"start":14585.949,"end":14608.877,"text":"因為你有的久了其實你這是疏忽並不是說他故意但是疏忽以後就造成很嚴重的問題出來因為像今年5月、10月分別發生遊覽車火燒事件本期也希望交通部要落實遊覽車的安全管理要求業者做好遊覽車的維修"},{"start":14611.538,"end":14636.21,"text":"讓遊客開心出遊安全回家交通部真的要硬起來要好好的處理部長您的看法我們會來努力這個定期巡查的部分其實一直都有在做我們也希望不要再發生意外最後一條日本台灣交流協會公布2023年的版日本人在台安全的這個"},{"start":14638.339,"end":14663.087,"text":"安全指南提醒日本人在台灣外出時要請務必要注意防預防這個交通事故該指南提到台灣人口約為日本人口的五分之一而已但是到2021年台灣交通事故的數量超過了日本國內交通事故的數"},{"start":14665.027,"end":14691.081,"text":"數量交通事故的風險比日本還高北京市希望交通部要努力改善行人安全的問題對觀光客長距的景點比如說台北101、北門郵局周邊的這些行人穿越道優先補助地方政府的設置、科技的執法以洗刷台灣交通負面的一些形象"},{"start":14691.641,"end":14703.408,"text":"部長,你的看法呢?好,這個部分不只是觀光客在意啦更在意的是我們的國人所以這個部分交通部應該要來努力讓行人更安全我認為這個很重要好,謝謝好,謝謝委員好,謝謝林委員接下來有請賴世寶委員發言"},{"start":14719.765,"end":14724.53,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請交通部的陳部長陳部長陳部長我在這個地方有質詢過你就是自由貿易港區現在還囤積著"},{"start":14745,"end":14763.019,"text":"家樂園跟電子園家樂園電子園到現在為止都算是違禁品都不合法家樂園不合法電子園不合法因為這裡面來講大家擔心的是家樂園電子園啊裡面有那個大馬的萃取物"},{"start":14763.96,"end":14792.282,"text":"而且不要忘了最近幾天前行政院的卓院長還指示把伊托米子當作二級毒品當然這個跟那個是另外一件事情可是可見的我們現在行政院很重視反毒反毒那現在自由貿易港區的囤積的電子煙加熱煙我記得上一次我質詢過你你說一個月內要給我一個答案現在有沒有答案"},{"start":14793.746,"end":14816.506,"text":"好,報告委員我會請那個民航的部分那個航港局趕快提供給委員那但是自由貿易港區是這個樣子委員您在說的是他可能會到境內來但自由貿易港區的東西是不會進來的他們是直接走出去的自由貿易港區相關的條例第15條規定很清楚違禁品不能夠進去啊"},{"start":14817.589,"end":14842.991,"text":"結果你們現在禁止軍品都已經放在那裡就照規定不可以放啦如果你說我只是轉一下那裡面放麻煩可以嗎放炮彈可以嗎那不可以啊不可以啊而且現在大家一推二百五喔這個自由貿易港區主目的事業儲管單位明明就是交通部"},{"start":14843.908,"end":14854.641,"text":"我得到的訊息是你們現在推給衛福部衛福部拒絕啊他不要當主管單位現在沒有人主管單位但是我們的法律規定你就是主管單位的主管是"},{"start":14855.629,"end":14884.701,"text":"跳起來啊!你不能說他要擺舞啊!但是在查的過程當中因為當然你們要會他啦!但是主管是你!那個地方是我們沒有錯啦!對!主管是你!跟航空公司跟航空局他們有在查這個這個你把報告盡快給我!我上一次一個月前我就執行過你你答應我一個月給答案怎麼處理到現在為止我所知道你們一直要推想推給其它單位也推不動!另外一個大家都知道"},{"start":14885.781,"end":14903.705,"text":"今天來講大家很關心這個觀光的問題我們現在觀光逆差7千億了對不對我們說要把觀光業那個吳淵聰的產業產值要破照居然沒辦法破照了對吧這個跳票了吧造園的產業不可能了"},{"start":14905.466,"end":14911.929,"text":"這個我們要努力啦他除了國外的旅客進來之外我們還要包含國旅請問你今年750萬的外客可以達標嗎?應該是可以啦750萬這個沒有問題原來是1000萬"},{"start":14923.271,"end":14949.927,"text":"這個250萬怎麼來就很簡單開放入客入客平均一年有270萬幾年前270萬就OK了我們很歡迎入客來我們很歡迎入客來但是對岸他們有些政治上面的限制你應該也清楚他其他的省份大部分是不允許來台灣的目前是只有開放福建福建可以到媽祖跟金門但是對岸那邊有限制那個不是我們這邊限制的"},{"start":14951.028,"end":14970.818,"text":"有個東西啦你不能夠一推一推250全部都推給什麼陸委會啊交通部要挑起來你應該在院會裡面你要提出一個建議我現在告訴你有個方法你仔細聽喔自由貿易港區就是好的解方自由貿易港區什麼意思就境內關外境內關外"},{"start":14973.769,"end":14990.13,"text":"的概念就是我們當初要推自由經濟示範區的時候就是這個概念說讓入客入貨可以來這裡形同它是關外它不是台灣的所以你那政治東西可以拿掉它就只有來這裡啊"},{"start":14991.571,"end":14992.392,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":15009.564,"end":15018.273,"text":"委員這個建議很好,我們來建議一下,我們來建議一下,但看對岸接不接受啦,如果對岸接受的話,我們內部我們來討論。所以我剛才,我看了新聞啊,就覺得說你這部長毫無作為啊,就說啊,陸委會沒辦法,這沒辦法,你要想。"},{"start":15029.085,"end":15045.068,"text":"對不對,自由貿易港區是好的企業法,好的企業法,境內關外,在台灣境內但是視同關外,所以,大陸的路客來這裡呢,欸,這不是來我們家,那就很多的市府就拿掉啦,這個東西你想一想啊。"},{"start":15046.236,"end":15068.958,"text":"好,我們朝著方向來討論一下,討論一下比較可行的。因為現在看起來只有陸柯,而且陸柯大家也知道他的消費額是日本客的兩倍啊,平均的兩倍啊,消費力強,人就多。我們也很歡迎陸柯來討論。很方便的,現在你問你卡住嗎?卡住這個是解放,自由貿易港區是解放,可以嗎?"},{"start":15069.679,"end":15073.804,"text":"好,我們朝這個方向來討論,好不好,你們規劃一下吧。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝賴委員。接下來有請羅志強委員發言。有請部長。好,陳部長。"},{"start":15099.769,"end":15123.115,"text":"請問部長你知道2016年到2023年平均每年違反道路交通管理處罰條例第21條的各項各款包括未領有駕照、偽造、變造、駕照、駕照、吊銷、吊扣等無照駕駛的總案件量是多少每年平均每年大概30萬件左右"},{"start":15125.396,"end":15143.797,"text":"我這邊看到是27.7萬件每天大概將近760件那這還只是抓到的路上無照的黑數不知道有多少那絕對是臺灣我們道路安全的一個重大隱患對不對是沒錯"},{"start":15144.468,"end":15160.413,"text":"那我也看到交通部在10月底召開記者會說這個宣布要推動修法主要方向是四個第一個是提高相關罰環1.5倍然後第二延長吊扣牌照期間第三個是車輛當場一致保管"},{"start":15161.253,"end":15180.732,"text":"期滿才能領回。第四、致人輕傷4年不得考領。致人重傷死亡終生不得考領。請問還會有其他修法方向嗎?除了這四大點以外。報告委員目前我們大概修法方向就是這四個重點。事實上道教處罰條例21條去年4月也修訂過。"},{"start":15185.376,"end":15208.047,"text":"那麼六月上路當時修法方向其實也差不多就是提高罰緩嘛對不對然後增加調扣期間嘛那你知道去年修法之後違反這個道交條例第21條更緩各項的案件有明顯下滑嗎報告委員沒有明顯下滑對所以這次我們才會再推動一次的這個修法"},{"start":15209.016,"end":15224.654,"text":"所以其實去年修法方案跟今年大部分相同只是有加得更嚴一點是不是交通部10月能提出的方案能不能解決問題其實我覺得很多民眾還是會有一點問號因為去年已經加重一次"},{"start":15225.755,"end":15247.58,"text":"這個加重似乎也沒有達到明顯的效果那今年再加重是不是能達到明顯的效果當然我覺得民眾中間就會有一點心理的疑惑比方說去年這個徵定道交處罰條21條第二項就是汽車駕駛在五年內累犯兩次以上那違反案件其實去年的平均是15727件今年反而變多了是16194件"},{"start":15254.082,"end":15266.407,"text":"那另外包括說第三項就是汽車駕照被吊扣吊銷仍然駕駛去年的月平均是2064件今年就變成是2918件這兩個其實都是加嚴那為什麼結果反而數字是上升呢這兩項"},{"start":15275.032,"end":15284.192,"text":"報告委員這個數字確實是上升那這個部分我們這次在加研的部分有特別在加入就是說汽車的部分要直接"},{"start":15285.305,"end":15306.937,"text":"一致保管 直接一致保管然後另外就是牌照的部分就直接扣下來了這個部分我們也會再來做加強我這樣跟部長說啦當然我覺得那個部長你們現在修法當然是希望能夠透過提高罰則然後能夠去減少這些道路危害的一些狀況可是我覺得"},{"start":15307.737,"end":15329.258,"text":"很多都是集中在所謂的駕照、罰緩但是我覺得其實還有一個重點就是車輛車輛就一致保管一致保管就是不能開的意思我覺得基本上除了一致保管期滿才能領回之外有沒有考慮到所謂的末路車輛的可能性"},{"start":15331.319,"end":15354.07,"text":"末路應該是看狀況根本報告末路的部分的話大概先行第二項就是說無照駕駛如果致人這一個重傷死亡就這一個直接末路我講的是把條件所謂的這個含澀性再放大一點有可能嗎這個部分可能要整體和明信再做一個考量那因為無照駕駛的部分的話確實剛剛委員提到"},{"start":15356.271,"end":15371.362,"text":"我這樣講其實你們的修法裡面有一樣就有效果剛剛前面講兩個其實都是比較屬於對人性的那你就發現其實你增加加嚴之後其實案件還是增加反而增加但是你們在這個道交條例處罰條例21條第6項"},{"start":15373.624,"end":15398.031,"text":"是連坐嚴懲汽車的所有人這是唯一去年到今年有明顯減少的新規定去年月平均是1130件今年剩下890件所以我覺得有些東西你可以參考去年的修法的狀況但你對車子本身如果說有一些更嚴格的處置的話我覺得可能嚇阻力會更強"},{"start":15399.551,"end":15421.581,"text":"當然現在有一些末路的規定但是末路規定可能太狹隘太狹限了那是不是可以考慮針對末路的規定能夠有更一體的一個研究是 報告委員我們到時候案子送來的時候是不是我們在委員會我們再來繼續來討論好 那我有再提那個法律案到時候請那個交通部再來參考一下是好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝羅委員接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":15436.004,"end":15465.391,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請陳世凱部長陳部長好部長近年來偽變造車牌氾濫假車牌讓人家生物痛絕就是因為它害人害己而且社會成本讓全民承擔本集特別看了一下你今天的報告專題報告裡面以及我們相關單位提出這個報告有講好"},{"start":15466.124,"end":15489.157,"text":"你的報告第三頁要求說讓我們的查緝作為源頭管理讓他買不到第二頁買不到第三頁修法加重處罰不敢賣如果說可以做到的話本席認同而且本席在"},{"start":15490.62,"end":15506.828,"text":"三個月前、兩個多月前踢爆現在的一個網路亂象之後我們也認為說應該要有更積極的作為去讓它買不到跟不敢賣但是如同我今天早上提案說明現在的狀況是什麼我們來看一下你只要打關鍵字這個是今天早上你看11點36分本席剛剛"},{"start":15517.423,"end":15546.065,"text":"去社群媒體平台看的只要你搜尋關鍵字有帳號有下面一比一製作機車、汽車、貨車提供號碼就可再來洋洋灑灑有加ID專業定做台灣一比一車牌再來還有請勿上路犯法該不負責"},{"start":15547.418,"end":15551.823,"text":"那他重點在於是他就是告訴你說你可以買仿真車牌啊來部長這麼嚴重的狀況跟氾濫的狀況源頭管理我們能夠怎麼做"},{"start":15562.469,"end":15590.474,"text":"包括源頭管理的部分一部分是從海關的部分就是說官務的部分也有協助我們讓這種假車牌進不來那第二個部分其實就是您現在所指出來的這個網路上面的部分我們現在公路局其實每一天都有用機器人程式在掃有掃到的就會馬上移送那馬上移送另外我們也會拜託速發部那邊幫我們做下架的動作不過目前確實數字上有些落差我們移送了大概500多件"},{"start":15591.894,"end":15612.552,"text":"那實際上下架差不多40幾件41件而已那中間的落差有一部分是在於說他是個人的LINE的群組或者是他個人的臉書這個部分確實速度慢了那我們也希望說是不是明天有跟速發部會議開會再討論這件事明天速發部也會召開會議再來確認網路上面怎麼樣能夠下架能夠再加速"},{"start":15613.564,"end":15620.853,"text":"你自己的第二頁變造車牌公路局近三年違規的統計111年56件、112年50件到113年69件所以換言之其實你們從111年就已經注意到這樣的一個議題了"},{"start":15632.93,"end":15655.348,"text":"那只是因為在今年是大幅的成長再加上本席之前提案說明沒有講今年的幾個重大的刑案它都跟假車牌其實有相關警政署也有跟本席私下有講幾個台南發生的重大槍擊事件為什麼那麼難抓就是因為那個車手都是用假車牌"},{"start":15656.641,"end":15682.381,"text":"所以製造斷點製造斷點之後所以說才會變成是很多的重大型案沒有辦法去追究這個真兇那這些問題難道都沒有看到嗎本席現在只講我們現在到目前為止如果說我們現在討論當然提高罰則、目錄車輛本席都支持甚至本席有提的提案只要任何人行政部門或說我們委員有更嚴格版本我也樂意支持"},{"start":15683.038,"end":15697.808,"text":"就是因為我認為是說現在這樣的狀況已經是太誇張氾濫到一個浪費國家資源而且浪費讓我們的治安已經受到嚴重的衝擊可是到重點在於是說那現在這一些部分勒"},{"start":15699.232,"end":15723.033,"text":"是執法面的部分報告委員我們跟這個內政部警政署還有就是訴發部的部分的跨部會的合作我們也積極正在協調當中部長有沒有信心好你說跨部會合作但也已經那麼久了有沒有信心至少能夠不要讓國人那麼輕易的搜尋到我覺得有些時候是這樣子我可能不一定有犯意但是"},{"start":15724.725,"end":15748.244,"text":"太簡單了太便宜了5000塊8000塊一個那可能就被我本來沒有我滑著滑著滑著我也就覺得說不然買買看會不會有這樣的狀況可能有來部長有沒有信心跟速發部如果說速發部真的沒有你說明天要開會那能不能部長跟直接跟速發部部長"},{"start":15749.414,"end":15761.619,"text":"我們陳部長跟黃部長兩個人討論一下怎麼樣能夠解決至少讓如果說必要的時候再加劉部長嘛內政部也一起來嘛至少讓國人不要在社群媒體那麼容易找到這個資訊"},{"start":15764.086,"end":15788.024,"text":"對 這個部分報告委員我會來請教這個黃部長在抒發部的部分能夠提供什麼樣子的協助我覺得這個議題要多管齊下各部會自己轄管的部分我們大家一起來努力那交通部的部分針對這個罰則的部分我們也提出了一個精進的方案那也是委員你們也一直很關注所以大家一起來努力這個方向好 所以你會親自跟部長來溝通我可以跟黃部長通電話好 謝謝"},{"start":15789.385,"end":15809.014,"text":"來那最後一分鐘的時間我只在關心另外一個議題因為本席接到很多的陳情就是計程車的一個部分現在說掛牌的權利金要飆漲還說我們的靠行的計程車的車費也要被調漲從過去一個月1200元到現在有車行調漲到1800元甚至有人講是說出現聯合漲價的一個情況那"},{"start":15815.097,"end":15836.322,"text":"部長之前不管是雙北或是高雄車行都有調漲那4月的時候交通部有下令說要請公路局來做調查但到目前為止我們到底有沒有違反因為好像也沒有一個下文可是調漲聯合調漲是事實甚至計程車業者有計程車司機有講說他不排除要上街抗議"},{"start":15838.763,"end":15852.512,"text":"這兩個部分一個部分他的轄管是地方政府我們有請台北市的交通局要來查處這個部分那第二個部分在公平會的部分我們應該也有協助協助我們的計程車那你們查到的狀況現在半年過去了到底有沒有聯合調查"},{"start":15854.041,"end":15878.139,"text":"跟委員報告一下4月份那個部分我們立即就把文轉給這個臺北市政府交通局那臺北市據我所了解的部分臺北市政府交通局這個公務處大概也跟這些公共會有跟他們做這一個回覆說明但是可能有些個案沒有處理到這一個相關比較細部的部分所以他們這個公會跟聯盟有在聊文所以我們在上禮拜立即再把這個公文"},{"start":15878.979,"end":15883.24,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":15896.724,"end":15917.799,"text":"有這些相關這個契約跟這個執行的一個這個機制所以請六都交通局這個第一個去這個查查做了解那另外部分也一邊提到如果說有涉及到聯絡壟斷的部分那請他們立即通報給公民會來做查處市長本席給你一分鐘的時間結果講完之後你沒有回答問題耶"},{"start":15919.178,"end":15932.623,"text":"我們現在在講的是說連新聞都報導了小黃駕駛都已經跟我本席我相信可能很多委員也都有接到類似的陳情確實就是有調漲嘛從原本的這個靠航費用一個月1200元變1200變1800"},{"start":15935.484,"end":15953.107,"text":"包委員這個查組是在地方政府是我們有講給地方政府請他們去查組但現在的狀況我們問路政司對不對你相關單位說到底有沒有這樣的狀況結果講了半天之後過了半年你六都還是沒有掌握啊那我身為中央主管機關難道可以放任嗎"},{"start":15954.656,"end":15973.506,"text":"我不管是車廂政府或地方政府第一有調漲是事實那如果說有調漲的話有沒有聯合壟斷的狀況那第二很多人也在討論啊過去可能有時空背景計程車需要抗航費那但到底抗航費的意義是什麼"},{"start":15976.372,"end":16000.027,"text":"現在很多計程車駕駛也問我們這件事我們說實在我一瞬間我也不知道你計程車司機已經考到職業駕照了那也是我們交通部的相關監理單位發的這個職業駕照可是你也不能上路你還是要去靠一個行這個是地方管轄目前他們沒有通報我們那這個部分因為您在要求我們趕快去跟他們地方政府瞭解一下他們目前查處的狀況"},{"start":16000.968,"end":16028.554,"text":"因為現在真的很多的小黃司機他們認為是說他們羊毛出在羊身上但是好像被層層剝削他們就是最末端最可憐的就是我們會跟地方政府來瞭解他們查處的狀況什麼時候可以給本席一個回覆一個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜我們發文去問他們啊等他們回我們跟你們報告本席還是會持續的關心兩個禮拜給本席跟交通委員會委員回覆好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":16031.189,"end":16032.23,"text":"賴慧媛委員賴慧媛委員發言陳部長"},{"start":16047.915,"end":16070.302,"text":"部長先跟你討論一個時事的議題2024這個世界棒球12強賽火熱在進行尤其是昨天昨天我們11比3大勝澳洲你知道現在一群人大家就是11月21到25大家都要到東京去那這個機票都買不到"},{"start":16071.249,"end":16091.505,"text":"是,報告委員我們今天確實有看到數據就是今天的訂票率非常的高到昨天還沒什麼變化但今天變化就蠻大的那這個部分民航局也已經在協調我們自己的國航兩個方面啦一個方面是加開班機第二個方面是有沒有可能我們直接小機型換大機型讓載客的量可以再增加這個部分我們正在努力啦"},{"start":16092.085,"end":16092.786,"text":"二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:"},{"start":16107.407,"end":16129.04,"text":"那接著我要跟你討論就是我們這個配合2050年今年排碳就是我們所有直轄市的這個電動公車在2030年可能就是說全面的電動化嗎這個有機會達到嗎那我先用台南市就是的案例來跟部長做一個探討"},{"start":16129.68,"end":16130.821,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":16152.856,"end":16157.319,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ"},{"start":16183.176,"end":16192.945,"text":"二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、"},{"start":16204.656,"end":16230.984,"text":"他就倒了一家然後退了一家為什麼因為這個補助的誘因是不足的部長你怎麼看待如果這是公車業者他如果在補助不足的時候他是不是會轉嫁到消費者身上來這個是最直接的嘛部長你有沒有一個比較好的好的一個方式來應對呢我們這個運具的電動化尤其在公共運輸的部分公車的部分其實我們確實有訂立出一個目標"},{"start":16231.764,"end":16252.676,"text":"那目前我們其實全國的數字來看是有達到那個目標的進度啦今年2024年該達到的進度我們都有達到那台南的部分數字上應該也還是在進度當中嘛還在進度當中那未來確實委員您所說的就是這個誘因要充足的部分過去的運行到目前為止其實是都還大家都還能夠運行"},{"start":16253.877,"end":16268.503,"text":"你現在有達到不代表你在5年內你可以充分的就是說把所有還沒有達到的這1萬多的一個數量那你國內只有3家就是國產國造的這些電動車牌目前已經到4家應該還會再增加"},{"start":16269.864,"end":16271.865,"text":"二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:一、二、審查 »:"},{"start":16291.395,"end":16304.81,"text":"全台灣這幾萬台的公車的一個淘汰顯然你是認為就是說已經是第四家業者審核通過了那所以沒有問題五年內可以做出這麼多的一個電動公車的一個補足嗎"},{"start":16305.711,"end":16322.03,"text":"我們現在盡量一方面補助買車的業者二方面也希望說可以提供車輛的這些業者能夠健全一點經濟部也在協助這個部分尤其在國產化的部分也在努力當中那我們會跟委員您今天所提到的我們會趕快跟業者"},{"start":16322.731,"end":16332.626,"text":"尤其是客運業者趕快來溝通說如果還有需要什麼樣的幫助或協助讓他們未來可以能夠快速的達標的話這個部分我們來跟他們協調部長在這裡跟你做一些建議這個就是說我們其實就是在這整體的研究裡頭有"},{"start":16338.875,"end":16342.838,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":16361.892,"end":16362.553,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":16388.194,"end":16414.006,"text":"自己維修的保養的一個能力啊那避免就是你的電商就是沿帶的保養那是還有就是烘台會用那不知道就是說部長你怎麼來看待這些?維修跟保養的這個部分是不是我們公路局其實有在協助啦有在協助他們客運公司自己訓練他們的人員可以自己來做維修跟保養就不會被製造商掐住脖子"},{"start":16414.406,"end":16441.429,"text":"我覺得這樣子就是這樣子一個胡搗是很正向的可是你的量要大你的量要大你的量能大的話你就不至於就是說被電商就是掐住你的脖子那我們也在這裡這個是客運業者希望我們轉達的一個就是說這個他們個人的一個建議他們說電動車就是一直透過客運者來領取政府的一個補助"},{"start":16441.829,"end":16455.185,"text":"可是這所有政府的補助相關部門驗收跟審查作業通通都是在刻印業者長期的一個承擔已經接近12年了喔那這個是一個好奇怪的政策啊怎麼為什麼這個補助款是電動業業者"},{"start":16458.789,"end":16474.219,"text":"他這些車商領走了那所有的這些審查的作業而是客運業者要去那個來做的所以這個我想部長那個要注意這些問題那我也希望你給我一個書面的一個回應"},{"start":16475.14,"end":16499.733,"text":"最新的電動車大客車的登記的一個數量你要必須充分去掌握還有各縣市市區的公車電動化的一個進度電動巴士國產化目前推動的一個進度那在跟那個主席借用一分鐘的時間接著就是要跟部長特別提到了就是那個討論T-BUS在我的選區執行上的一個困難因為"},{"start":16500.433,"end":16502.034,"text":"黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,"},{"start":16529.165,"end":16533.647,"text":"黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,"},{"start":16556.454,"end":16583.352,"text":"沒有多少錢幾千萬而已你一定可以你絕對可以你再來再下一張這個為什麼為什麼只有幾千萬這個因為兩地的系統的整合卡關了那在嘉義的時候他的票務的系統跟那個南高屏的統一票務的一個系統他沒有辦法連結所以我希望就是說是不是部長你可以來幫我們處理這樣子一個很簡單的一個問題"},{"start":16585.387,"end":16593.341,"text":"我們這個趕快跟地方政府來協調看要怎麼對大家要有共識啦大家有共識兩邊的地方政府都有共識就是沒錢"},{"start":16595.234,"end":16616.417,"text":"呃跟我們報告補助上面的話其實台鐵的這個票差的部分其實我們是補助90%對是很高的對所以啊啊就是因為還切個切個那麼一點點錢哈是不是我們再把加把勁我們把那個把它促成好不好部長我希望就是說再談一下跟政府再談一下謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":16619.188,"end":16627.511,"text":"好 謝謝那委員做一下宣告待會發言到吳立華委員之後休息20分鐘接下來有請楊瓊英委員謝主席本席要請邀請部長"},{"start":16649.656,"end":16661.774,"text":"部長好。我想今天我要跟您討論今天主席所安排的議題,也就是偽造車牌的事件。我們看到現在偽造車牌達到1012件。"},{"start":16664.958,"end":16682.214,"text":"那如果以刑法來移送的部分是859件那有大概有這個896人那嚴重的影響整個車牌的管理那特別對於整個道路交通安全以及社會治安是有很大的一個傷害"},{"start":16683.075,"end":16711.078,"text":"甚至懸掛偽造的車牌他不斷的不斷的去違規駕駛造成車牌被盜用的車主他非常的無辜他一直收到這個這個罰單那收到這個罰單雖然有的他沒有報案那就真的是史無對證了那有的有去報案他要花很多的時間去申訴而且他還要回到你的監理站去申請變更的車牌這非常的老民事件不斷的在報"},{"start":16711.798,"end":16725.195,"text":"不斷地在報所以本席要提出很多的委員大家我們也包括本席也都提出了這個修法那你們到現在才說要提出修法那現在進度如何呢"},{"start":16725.86,"end":16739.509,"text":"報告委員我們其實修法的整體的版本其實在交通部裡面有擬定了一段時間你到上週才說你要研擬嘛對不對那現在進度到哪裡已經研擬一段時間上週的報告跟社會說是說已經研擬了一個成果跟結論了什麼時候你預計什麼時候會送出來呢"},{"start":16745.54,"end":16768.203,"text":"我們希望能夠在一個月之內能夠送到立法院一個月內送到立法院因為部長這個的確一定要加油一定要提起勁好好去做這個危害大家太傷腦筋了那所以呢我們現在看到你除了提高這個罰則對不對你們的修法內容方向提高罰則然後呢"},{"start":16769.324,"end":16797.603,"text":"接下來對於變造的這些來源你要怎麼樣溯耕你要怎麼去斷源呢對不對溯耕的部分其實我們跟執法單位也就是說警政署的部分其實我們有努力一起在做但是成效就是越來越糟糕有在找源頭所以我告訴你你現在正在修你包括你要怎麼樣去追耕你要去斷源接下來還有一個也就是你讓使用者買不到"},{"start":16799.266,"end":16804.008,"text":"他沒有出入就沒好啊就是源頭管制的部分對他使用者買不到啊還有一個不啊使用者不敢用啊你要多面向去啊如果你也一樣只有提高罰則那也是沒有用啊目前現況就是這麼糟糕啊包含沒入車輛的部分也是我們這次修法的重點未來如果會沒入車輛我相信使用這個假車牌的人應該會好好考慮一下會預計在這個部分嗎對"},{"start":16827.997,"end":16848.934,"text":"會默入車輛在你這一次的修法的重點?對,在這次修法裡面也會納入默入車輛的部分除了罰則提高,另外就是默入車輛的部分我覺得應該會讓大家有…好,所以你一個月內將你們的法要送到立法院來那我們大家再好好討論因為這困擾了民眾,太困擾了那有些民眾因為被吊銷或只是吊扣"},{"start":16850.015,"end":16857.306,"text":"他就在那個社群平台就買了一個買了一個假車牌了他也不知道違法這樣有沒有違法"},{"start":16858.649,"end":16882.023,"text":"你去買那個車牌來搗咧,這樣有沒有違法違法違法嘛違法你們要大力去宣導它不只違法,它還涉及到刑法它還偽造耶,特種文書啊對不對是沒有錯,這個有刑法的這個有刑法的啊對你們都點頭啊可是還是很多人不知道啊啊我就被吊銷了啊所以我就去網路很方便啊他就寄一個車牌來給我,我就給他吊上去啊"},{"start":16882.725,"end":16889.309,"text":"委員這個我們加強宣導加強宣導要讓民眾知道說這個是違法的行為以後不要再做這個一定要加強宣導因為"},{"start":16891.055,"end":16912.828,"text":"本席也就是說你不要說因為台灣的民眾有很多很善良的是他的確需要車子他就想盡一些辦法他取到他最簡單的方式可以取得那這個就糟糕所以本席要求必須要加強去宣導加強去宣導那接下來我要請問說像這樣的一個情況之下很多民眾敢買變造車牌的幫兇"},{"start":16915.089,"end":16931.091,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣去改善我們要怎麼樣改善因為你使用了偽造車牌的情況呢那你違反了這個很多的治安嘛很多的治安所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到今年到現在喔越來越多這樣的現象"},{"start":16932.219,"end":16958.866,"text":"你看他好像不重要但是他就是困擾著每一個人的家庭這個真的是很困擾所以呢你跟警方這邊的橫向聯繫你們有沒有聯繫的管道跟平台來掌控這些最新的資料其實報告委員我們跨部會的協調跟跨部會合作目前在查緝跟這個從源頭管制的部分我們目前都一直在進行當中都一直在進行當中好 這個就是部長我要"},{"start":16960.166,"end":16980.937,"text":"讓你講我故意要讓你講你現在都有在查緝當中可是結果論是不好的所以我請你去精進方案好不好你們的聯絡平台你們的聯絡管道要怎麼去精進這是我今天本席今天所要質詢的重點好不好你去研議書面資料給本席多久給本席"},{"start":16984.997,"end":17008.012,"text":"本席也就是希望說我們看到社會面向都是你們辛苦現在在做但是做來成績不理想的時候拜託你們要怎麼去調整好不好來無照駕駛這麼嚴肅的議題你看到東湖高中生的事件偷開了阿公的車上路了新竹17歲的孩子"},{"start":17009.062,"end":17019.854,"text":"晚上就把你開出來了部長你看到這些無照駕駛造成這樣子的嚴肅的議題你有沒有什麼方法你即使提高罰則也就是罰則罰錢"},{"start":17021.86,"end":17048.166,"text":"他還是一樣偷偷就開出來怎麼辦有沒有什麼方案可以去因應一方面提高罰則包括未來的這個車輛我們會一致管理讓他們有警惕心之外針對年長就是65歲以上沒有駕照的這個部分我們會盡量輔導他們去考駕照那對於年幼也就是還未成年的這個部分我們也會加強輔導跟教育單位做輔導而且要列管"},{"start":17048.906,"end":17061.855,"text":"要列管就是說這些人員第一我們要列管學校要關懷第二就是說針對家長的責任的部分我們也會把他加進來就是家長如果發生這樣的事情家長要一起來上課部長你講到這個重點我們一起來討論你政府是不是應當從家庭的觀念養成這個監製的這個監製的機制那也就是因為無照駕駛他本來就是未成年"},{"start":17076.946,"end":17095.525,"text":"所以家長本來他就是有責任那所以呢無照駕駛他不只是一個交通安全的問題他是一個社會安全的問題對不對也因為基於這樣的原因你要怎麼樣去做是不是這個家長的部分他的一個"},{"start":17096.806,"end":17111.915,"text":"連坐對象這是必須納入裡面的要不然你一個小孩他就未成年啊那這怎麼辦呢你要怎麼樣去推廣啊對不對你只好家長你要有責任去管控這個孩子啊"},{"start":17113.076,"end":17133.893,"text":"對,在這次的求法裡面我們把家長的責任也都納進來對象納入嘛,同不同意對,沒有錯應該要納入,好好的去宣導,好好的去管控好不好,不然這樣子我們對一個未成年你也沒他什麼責啊那這怎麼辦呢,所以不能造成這樣社會的一個不安嘛那連帶這個你贊同把家長納入在你們的這個類別內嘛對不對"},{"start":17139.537,"end":17140.397,"text":"吳春成委員發言"},{"start":17174.997,"end":17178.662,"text":"主席有請陳部長、公路局陳局長、觀光署的周署長"},{"start":17189.926,"end":17219.267,"text":"副部長好委員好辛苦了到這麼晚不會那個我在立法院都在推動這個人口的政策是部長知道嗎我知道有聽說針對壯年的部分對對對壯時代壯時代好在43天臺灣就進入超高齡社會交通部準備好了嗎交通部有這個有在為超高齡社會做一些什麼政策的調整嗎有沒有"},{"start":17220.294,"end":17246.976,"text":"報告委員幾個部分一個部分針對公共運輸的部分確實超高齡之後很多的長者他們需要更多的公共運輸尤其是比較偏鄉的部分這個部分我們有在做努力那另外針對這個坦白說我們這個公共運輸的這個公車業者、客運業者他們的這個駕駛不足我們也把這個年齡有調升讓一些比較超過65歲以上的還可以繼續來做駕駛昨天在喜來德那邊就發生一個"},{"start":17250.418,"end":17269.904,"text":"車禍、一個車禍對不對有死亡車禍就是年輕的公車駕駛者然後撞死了這個高齡的行人好OK這個這個現在目前這個我們到我們溫德公路局根據這一個的調查現在"},{"start":17273.622,"end":17297.783,"text":"現在這個駕車肇事率是隨著年齡增加而遞減年齡增加從這個表來看18歲到29歲有2900多件每10萬人70歲以上只有1100多件事實上是人口的最低"},{"start":17298.989,"end":17318.504,"text":"這是駕車造勢70歲以上的是最低的所有00層當中最低在行人當中出事的隨著年齡增加而遞增最年輕的只有10.66件70歲以上只有最高有46.66件"},{"start":17328.98,"end":17343.689,"text":"這一個我們從去年113年1到8月65歲上高齡者的交通死亡人數前十大原因當中第一個排名第一名的是重型機車"},{"start":17345.97,"end":17364.959,"text":"重型機車死亡最多占所有死亡當中的57%高齡者騎重型機車非常危險第二就是行人行人走路高齡者走路很危險占了19%第二名第三個是什麼"},{"start":17366.079,"end":17386.613,"text":"自行車、騎腳踏車危險占了9%第四個是當乘客、坐車當乘客占4%開小客車占3%這個沒有錯吧 局長沒有錯那現在目前公路局上面我來看請問75歲是不是要"},{"start":17390.543,"end":17414.254,"text":"要換照?要取消他的駕照?75歲要再做認知功能測驗之後才能夠繼續就是說擁有駕照那為什麼他已經是出事最低的為什麼要特別有他特別待遇呢?他跟委員報告其實高齡者跟這個跟年輕人其實都是在事故的統計上面其實是兩個高峰"},{"start":17416.415,"end":17433.163,"text":"六五以上一直到七五其實都還是算是高峰高峰是高峰所以剛才從那個那個是你們統計的數據嘛他開車出事是佔3%是最低的嘛那你不開車他就會變成前面騎腳踏車騎車或者當行人嘛對不對"},{"start":17437.725,"end":17454.898,"text":"你剝奪他開車的權利他就會變成風險更高嘛你到底是想要降低那個風險還是增加那個風險這不是剝奪他開車的權利我們只是做體檢確認他的跑路速度夠快那每一個都要體檢我只是說這個重要政策其實這個隱含的是叫高齡歧視這違憲你知道嗎剝奪你要剝奪這個叫壯實在的開車權利嗎行動移動的自由嗎"},{"start":17463.007,"end":17467.809,"text":"請檢討這個政策接下來我告訴我們部長現在75歲以上的人你看那個2024年有160萬人這些已經都被歧視了都要吊銷駕照了到了2050年會多少呢"},{"start":17490.178,"end":17510.672,"text":"會到420萬人這些人都要被你列管嗎這個真的要檢討這個政策好不好要檢討這個政策另外一個不好意思再借我一分鐘就是另外一個就是觀光觀光產業建立交通部來鼓勵發展壯遊"},{"start":17513.014,"end":17525.589,"text":"因為現在我們對所謂引髮想像的旅遊業都是坐著上車睡覺、下車尿尿把那個安全係數引髮旅遊搞得非常無趣其實這一塊"},{"start":17527.325,"end":17546.07,"text":"這一塊我們從這裡振興國旅狀實在是主力啊主力從你各種的數據旅遊最多的包括非假日旅遊最多的錢最多的最有時間最有錢最有意願做什麼結果我們對這塊是任其方無"},{"start":17547.318,"end":17575.01,"text":"任其方無而且這一塊台灣如果內部旅遊把它做起來還可以吸引觀光台灣是這一塊聖地耶寶島聖地旅遊中的交通部在這一部分好好的重視因為為什麼都不重視其實我推廣的各個部位我很清楚都是叫做年齡歧視我們都覺得你年紀到了一個程度以後就不好了隨便啦輕輕菜菜啦"},{"start":17576.371,"end":17605.208,"text":"就是都這種觀念然後呢甚至去剝奪它的價值的這個違憲的這個權利我希望因為部長你很有心的你年輕嘛年輕有為很有新的觀念拜託把它來調整所以OK最後因為已經進入超高雄社會明年要有一個新的氣象不然政府毫無作為這個會被人家笑的啦所以我是不是可以請交通部全面檢討第一件事情壯世代的駕照政策"},{"start":17606.169,"end":17629.857,"text":"第二個是撞車牌的觀光政策。可不可以在一個月之內提這個檢討報告給我的辦公室。好,沒有問題。可以齁?沒有問題。好,謝謝部長、謝謝委員。好,謝謝吳委員。接下來有請王洪威委員。王洪威委員不在。下一位請鍾嘉斌委員發言。"},{"start":17639.144,"end":17658.236,"text":"二、主席、在場委員先進、列席政府專協長官員、會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生我上午在提案說明的時候已經有邀請過已經有先謝題了現在請大家來答題請我們交通部陳部長法務部的郭司長警政署的李副署長早上已經有謝過題了我要問的"},{"start":17662.345,"end":17675.217,"text":"來,部長好、司長好、副處長好。部長,我的主題是假車牌要處末路銷毀方能嚇阻違規的罰單應向假牌的犯嫌追查。部長你知道嗎?哪些人在使用假車牌下一頁?我就跟你標示了嘛。是。要作案的人嘛。對。"},{"start":17682.216,"end":17702.615,"text":"另外一個呢最近因為我們違規祭典很多車主啊他被吊罩那車牌被吊扣是不是這樣子那他的車豪車啊他怎麼開放在那裡不捨得啊買個假車牌來開嘛罰則太輕大量使用是不是這樣子確認齁OK往下看那為什麼我主張要末路銷毀車輛才能嚇阻犯罪呢副組長"},{"start":17703.683,"end":17722.928,"text":"一般來講如果犯罪集團偷了張車掛上假車牌我請教一下他抓到這怎麼處理他的車輛是不是算是不是叫做犯罪所得犯罪集團他偷了車去犯案這個車是怎麼如果沒有找不到屍主"},{"start":17724.765,"end":17748.804,"text":"蔣主席說世界的車輛當然是要先扣起來扣起來然後呢會不會拍賣犯罪所得拍賣嘛那到最後一段時間才會一起拍賣好部長要知道吼因為他被視為是犯罪所得法務部司長吼所以呢他就會被法拍你們知道嗎像這種犯案的車輛啊作案的張車法拍價格很低啊"},{"start":17749.71,"end":17766.612,"text":"所以犯罪集團在哪買回來啊繼續犯案啊部長有沒有要求因為反正掛假車牌嘛部長了解了沒有所以如果說我們不把用假車牌犯案的車輛當作犯罪工具目錄銷毀他就在那邊循環嘛"},{"start":17767.793,"end":17781.843,"text":"部長這樣了解了齁?好那接下來另外一個那如果我開豪車呢我的車三四百萬啦但是我被吊扣啊那我就弄了一個假車牌我沒有犯罪喔請問這輛車扣到了怎麼處理?拍賣嗎?末路嗎?銷毀嗎?還沒想過對不對?末路後怎麼樣?"},{"start":17795.66,"end":17820.413,"text":"末路後怎麼樣請他告訴他末路後怎麼樣根文包括末路後議規定可以銷毀可以銷毀其實我是覺得要大概區分一下用假車牌的目的我是認為末路銷毀這次出手很重很好打擊犯罪集團不要讓這些髒車無限循環但是如果他只是因為他買了豪車他用了假車牌他要來開開過過癮其實啊"},{"start":17823.462,"end":17844.409,"text":"你讓他拿不回去他就已經很痛了是不是這樣子你們回去研究一下這題我沒有答案往下看那使用假車牌的這些違規罰單向誰拿我的車牌被人家拿去中假車牌了找我拿嗎不是嗎那現在以後呢我使用假車牌這個時間的違規罰單找誰罰"},{"start":17848.737,"end":17869.126,"text":"當然是犯違規的那個人啦這個被害的車主行為人嘛 對不對就是行為人好所以這就是我們這一次修法本席提案的兩個重點透過加入末路銷毀來阻卻犯罪集團用假車牌用髒車繼續犯案但是我們要思考一下如果它是豪車"},{"start":17870.78,"end":17894.106,"text":"他沒有犯案那他使用假車牌要怎麼去處罰你們要去斟酌以及最後我主張我們在使用假車牌之間的交通違規向行為人追查做得到嗎這個沒有錯一定是這麼做的沒有錯好那所以今天的本行就是這個提案然後也希望部長跟我們的司長還有我們警政署還有法務部未來"},{"start":17896.067,"end":17914.284,"text":"對於日新月異的犯罪手法,我們要及時的透過相關的行政監禮手段來與嚇阻。部長同意嗎?同意。好,謝謝。是,謝謝委員。好,謝謝中委員。接下來有請吳立華委員發言。"},{"start":17927.015,"end":17928.119,"text":"謝謝主席。有請部長。陳部長。"},{"start":17936.016,"end":17957.197,"text":"部長您好今天那個官官發展條例我有提修法版本那最主要是我居住偏鄉所以我關心偏鄉的官官發展那長期以來我觀察其實對台灣來講山地丘陵佔了國土三分之二以上"},{"start":17958.226,"end":17985.94,"text":"也就是說如果我們要發展觀光大概就是在山地丘陵區域所以觀光發展條例其實對我們來講很重要那這其中我覺得我們目前遇到的困境就是發展觀光要有吃、有住、有交通但是山地都居於劣勢那前幾年要特別感謝我們交通部、公路局"},{"start":17986.86,"end":18004.899,"text":"他有修訂一個叫做汽車運輸業的管理規則也就是開放小客車、自用車投入偏鄉的運輸那我也有參與那為什麼這個很重要因為我們到山上去幾乎都是禁止甲乙類啊"},{"start":18005.868,"end":18029.124,"text":"那些路那你甲類乙類都不行那有什麼好觀光發展所以對我們來講自用車、小客車如果它也能夠有合法的牌我們就有生意可以做我們也可以帶我們的客人進去觀光所以我覺得這個部分很好但是有一個部分就是住困難重重"},{"start":18030.117,"end":18041.272,"text":"因為我們受限於那些水保法光是要變更地幕就很難所以要在山上蓋大飯店除非是以前現在是幾乎不可能"},{"start":18042.293,"end":18069.812,"text":"所以我們也很高興觀光署在推動民宿我們也都在努力的在協助推動然後呢我們剛剛才推了一個就是露營場的合法化那也可以但是公告上路兩年以來合法的沒有幾家欸很難欸既有的要合法沒辦法反而是新設的它可能還有點辦法"},{"start":18070.652,"end":18086.422,"text":"所以我覺得在這個部分如果我們的發展觀光條例再有所限制的話那真的是扼殺了我們偏鄉的觀光發展所以我想說的就是我們目前會碰到的我就不講露營場裡面會提到的就是民宿"},{"start":18087.694,"end":18111.464,"text":"那民宿呢?如果我們現在要關於這些沒有上位登記的也就是非法的要去處理它的罰則的時候當然我同意你把它分類觀光旅館或者是一般的旅館以及民宿我同意觀光旅館罰則要把它拉高一點所以呢到200萬我覺得OK"},{"start":18113.405,"end":18123.019,"text":"但是我比較有意見的是說即便我們用行政罰罰的行政裁量權去控制它的樓地板跟天花板我覺得也蠻危險的"},{"start":18124.676,"end":18148.29,"text":"其實對很多民宿業者來講這個是很沉重的負擔可能會扼殺他願意被輔導合法化所以這個部分我自己的版本是希望還是要分等級啦但是如果不要分等級我們用法律的體率給他寫幾到幾萬我也沒意見但是我希望那個樓地板要低"},{"start":18149.49,"end":18176.485,"text":"讓那個行政裁量不至於造成去扼殺他們的發展這個是需要分等級沒有錯啦對 我的版本要分等級好不好那我希望這種民宿的我真的希望他的樓地板不要太高因為我們都還在輔導他他都還不願意咧結果我們還要把罰則提高他就更不願意那另外一種我關心的你們上面是我是他有的人說他是日租套房"},{"start":18177.225,"end":18202.88,"text":"其實我們是因應永久屋也就是莫拉克風災之後政府有輔導永久屋可以做接待家庭他自己也住在裡面但是因為觀光客來沒地方住啊所以呢我們會把它叫做接待家庭但是它有點類似現在所稱的日租套房那如果這個地方也去處理它那我看都完蛋了"},{"start":18203.82,"end":18233.22,"text":"其實大家來偏鄉來山上觀光沒有地方住啦他們願意去搭配政府的輔導願意成為接待家庭願意成為民宿那個真的都已經謝天謝地了啦更何況真的很難他要碰到好多消防法也不容易他光是他的安全結構他的水保法他的變更地目很難不是不願意真的要碰到的法規太多太難了所以部長請教您的看法"},{"start":18233.959,"end":18251.844,"text":"是,他如果是日租套房的部分可能他這個短天期比較難注意但他如果願意做Long Stay的話可以來研商一下看是否協助他我希望這個部分我們還是去細部的討論一下不要傷害到他們的發展好不好好,那謝謝部長、謝謝署長謝謝主席好,謝謝吳委員有關陳委員你要"},{"start":18265.1,"end":18271.302,"text":"好,那時間控制一下,好不好?好,請李昆城委員發言,完之後我們再休息。謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,陳部長。"},{"start":18290.138,"end":18312.559,"text":"來 部長好那相信大家都很關心早上我看這個包含這一個我們企常委員他有在問就是說現在台灣都已經晉級了然後打就是預定在禮拜四下禮拜四就要到這個東京區段去打球了那這個包含我自己在內我在昨天發現這個5比1可以晉級之後就開始上網去訂機票我也是訂不到啦"},{"start":18314.32,"end":18334.288,"text":"這不管不是只有我我相信很多球迷是訂不到那這個聽說這個早上已經有協調我們國航的這一個這個這個飛機航空公司也要來做這一個加班那不曉得現在有沒有比較對就是加班嘛或是說換比較大型的飛機不曉得有沒有現在有沒有最新的訊息"},{"start":18336.165,"end":18351.679,"text":"這個部分我還沒有掌握最新訊因為早上到現在都還在備詢這個部分我相信會有好消息啦因為民航局他們今天早上開始就一直在努力這件事昨天晚上就有人在反映他們今天早上就在努力這件事所以最快單案的時候會知道這個消息"},{"start":18352.64,"end":18368.88,"text":"呃我們看今天今天我們晚一點看會不會有消息有的話呃我們會希望航空公司多宣導讓民眾知道那也會讓委員這邊也先知道好那現在就是說這個偽造車牌部分齁那這一個交通部有打算這個提高的這一個罰則"},{"start":18370.362,"end":18384.703,"text":"那甚至就是說這個車輛可以沒入那我想請問一下因為這是涉及到修法那在修法之前有沒有什麼讓一個這個政策可以先來實施先來做把這個偽造車牌的這個數量再把它降低"},{"start":18385.343,"end":18407.823,"text":"報告委員我們目前源頭管理的部分持續在做其實我們從前一陣子就一直在做那另外我們跨部會的稽查跨單位的稽查其實我們也都一直在執行那內政部警政署也相當努力也相當幫忙那抒發部也相當幫忙那財政部也是在源頭管理的部分部長你說相當幫忙可是我看他們查出來的數字好像有點落差就像這個抒發部有在嗎"},{"start":18409.697,"end":18437.887,"text":"術發部就是說我在這個教育部跟這個衛福部也是一樣這個我在問這個電子菸非常氾濫你在網路上你打電子菸要買這個到處都買得到那他也是說他們這個術發部就是說這個已經很努力在做了那現在也是一樣啊現在你只要在網路上面打車牌就算我剛剛在在Google的時候打這個車牌這還是都有啊都還是買得到這個偽造的車牌啊"},{"start":18438.647,"end":18452.124,"text":"對阿 那速發部速發部要怎麼樣去做就是說像這個衛福部跟這個速發部就合作電子菸的相關的關鍵字那就可以這個做下架那現在這個速發部要怎麼去做處理勒"},{"start":18456.331,"end":18471.874,"text":"跟委員報告一下那其實我們也知道這個議題很相當嚴重所以其實我們有跟這個交通部去做合作那他們有提供關鍵的部分我們進行這個所謂的網路的這個巡查在網路平台的部分事實上是沒有那現在比較嚴重的就是在網路平台上面也說沒有"},{"start":18472.99,"end":18493.744,"text":"是網路平台加我們熟悉的像一些蝦皮等等沒有但是出問題的是在社群平台確實是還有一些比如說我在Meta上面啊在Google上面啊對啊那這個你們管不到嗎那這部分我們也有積極的跟這個業者進行這個協作請他們積極下架那確實現在我看你們那個下架的個案很少啊"},{"start":18494.504,"end":18522.905,"text":"確實下降速度比較慢所以我們今天跟明天其實我們有找業者跟機關來去這個為什麼是今天跟明天這個不知道你們講了大概兩三個月有了我們其實有但是就是發現到速度不夠好 那你們打算怎麼做呢打算怎麼去要求業者咧我們業者的部分就是要求他們要競速下降那如果真的是涉及廣告部分他是有車牌部分那我們就依打詐專法進行做一個裁處的部分對啊 因為他們現在有設這個法律代理人嘛 對不對所以我們都找到他法律代理人嘛"},{"start":18523.445,"end":18546.095,"text":"對阿所以基本上就是說你在什麼Google或是說在臉書上面你要打這個關鍵字其實如果有的話你們是可以找他們的阿就是但他們現在有賦予什麼樣的這個法律上面的責任嗎他們的法律代表已經送過來我們進行審查那如果確實這是涉及廣告不實的部分或者是詐騙我們就是依打造車牌去做一個裁處不是阿那他這個是算是涉及到什麼"},{"start":18547.188,"end":18571.813,"text":"廣告不實因為它是偽造車牌什麼廣告不實如果它今天是有廣告的部分又涉及詐騙我們就依打詐裝版但是如果今天涉及到是違反這個所謂的交通部的部分交通部這個部分它會依法的不行進入一個裁罰的部分對 因為部長因為這個情況非常嚴重我是希望說這個我們交通部跟速發部要來合作要提供一些訊息給速發部因為現在包含這個電子驗也是一樣啊"},{"start":18572.373,"end":18589.171,"text":"那這個現在就是偽造車牌偽造車牌很多都是在網路上都可以買到的那你剛才講就是說除了在平台上面還有一些LINE的群組上面那你有沒有跟LINE那邊有做聯繫嗎有 其實LINE跟GoogleMeta其實我們都有跟交通部這邊進行一個所謂的聯繫傳播都有"},{"start":18589.771,"end":18607.251,"text":"對啊 我是希望說這個因為如果修法是到明年上半年你才有辦法就是說修法加重加嚴但是現在如果說你在修法之前有沒有這個權宜措施可以把這個偽造車牌這個東西數量再把它下降"},{"start":18607.551,"end":18631.532,"text":"副部長,您最後再回答一下。是,報告委員您所在意的其實是執行面的部分那執行面的部分我們其實有一些做法但或許不夠精進那您在關心的應該是我們希望要更精進包含跟數位部之間的合作那我們明天會開會討論一下看讓它下架的速度看如何加快好,那你們這個精進的措施跟作為大概多久可以出來可以給本席一個報告兩週兩週的時間跟委員報告好,謝謝,謝謝副部長,謝謝主席"},{"start":18637.742,"end":18637.945,"text":"好,謝謝于委員。"},{"start":18641.959,"end":18667.796,"text":"等下休息之前做一下宣告待會休息20分鐘休息完畢之後我們還有委員要進行詢答今天詢答完畢之後針對於我們道交條例相關的一個修法剛剛跟部長、交通部長有溝通他們的版本會盡快的進來因為畢竟裡面是涉到很多的財產權的問題可能你們要思考一下確實有些不同程度的"},{"start":18668.436,"end":18683.128,"text":"有些最惡劣的、有些中間的、有些傻傻的是不是都要用一招那我們等你們的版本進來再一併審議那發展觀光條路我們待會在巡查完畢之後我們逐條來審議好,現在休息20分鐘"},{"start":18700.73,"end":18708.562,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 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黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19279.377,"end":19286.367,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19313.8,"end":19338.791,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19365.659,"end":19393.436,"text":"二),委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健豪等17人、黃健"},{"start":19399.65,"end":19402.295,"text":"二),委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19417.995,"end":19443.569,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17"},{"start":19444.05,"end":19449.704,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19457.249,"end":19481.526,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19490.503,"end":19516.231,"text":"二),委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19521.63,"end":19526.371,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19574.327,"end":19583.706,"text":"二),委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19587.995,"end":19607.068,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19611.391,"end":19622.743,"text":"二),委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19639.438,"end":19661.051,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17"},{"start":19666.136,"end":19673.863,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19711.237,"end":19718.832,"text":"二),委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19740.094,"end":19752.099,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健"},{"start":19774.585,"end":19787.872,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健"},{"start":19797.483,"end":19802.174,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19808.477,"end":19825.244,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健"},{"start":19827.686,"end":19849.385,"text":"或許能夠把這個案例作為有效解封性的方式或大力提供讓市民有所負擔,不限制的方式﹖但是我們都會在以後來進行報告﹖我們希望可以開始報告以進行這個結論﹖要報告有多年﹖我們知道現在很多的網絡、網絡網絡都已經到封信的階段了﹖要不然我們現在還要進行這個結論﹖但是我們將會提供來進行讓市民有所負擔﹖那我看看"},{"start":19854.609,"end":19874.482,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19877.824,"end":19887.513,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":19892.175,"end":19918.414,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健"},{"start":19933.254,"end":19934.935,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。好,我們接下來有請鄭正前委員發言。鄭正前委員不在。羅明才委員不在。"},{"start":19960.506,"end":19972.571,"text":"接下來有請蔡易瑜委員。接下來有請林月琴委員發言。"},{"start":19996.755,"end":20000.077,"text":"何秦部長好 陳部長好 部長午安那當然我相信今天很多人是問你的是那個排照的問題不過想問的是因為昨天台北市的公車事故部長應該有掌握狀況吧可是我要提醒部長的是因為國內職業駕駛"},{"start":20024.468,"end":20044.968,"text":"考訓的制度的改革真的不能再等了因為上次質詢的時候我就提醒過我們的公車客運業的問題尤其是公路局8年連續在國外考察6次的公車客運的一些營運管理似乎這樣子的考察並沒有回應到你回來臺灣政策的一些改變"},{"start":20045.709,"end":20067.601,"text":"所以我認為我們的源頭端還是在考訓制度真的要趕快動起來不要再待會兒因為從聚業一直走到現在又再發生這樣的事情那公車客運業的那個事故平常過去我們的統計數據也顯示公車客運涉入的交通事故的人數呢"},{"start":20068.854,"end":20085.129,"text":"不減反增而且人為因素事實上是關鍵可是國內的職業大客車的駕訓本來問題就很多上次就也再度的有講過所以首先我們來看就是問題一就是國內的針對職業駕駛的那個駕訓的教育"},{"start":20089.753,"end":20092.336,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":20105.569,"end":20131.063,"text":"有管理上、辦法上要求的這些時數可是實際上業界的慣例這是我從業界他們取得的資料慣例上根本在做的時候跟你想像的就不太一樣甚至有共車的這樣的一個狀態照理講國外是1比1你的法規也是明定要1比1可是真實這樣做嗎也不是這樣做因為事實上有時候事實上是1比2一個老師要帶著兩個那怎麼去做"},{"start":20131.323,"end":20144.387,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健"},{"start":20155.618,"end":20172.28,"text":"是,委員是不是我們請局長先跟您回應好不好?是,也跟委員報告就是說整個的因為委員有提到就是說整個包括就是說從訓練到考照到這個駕照未來的管理其實這個部分的話當然部裡面就是說跟局其實我們有相關的方案"},{"start":20173.481,"end":20174.262,"text":"副副副副副副副"},{"start":20195.871,"end":20197.092,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪"},{"start":20220.592,"end":20238.174,"text":"再來就是大客車的考照這樣的一個制度上有很明顯的問題也就是包含前面提到的我們的實習教學當中常常是沒有辦法落實我們的道路駕駛的訓練時數而且更何況我們的時數非常的低像這次的那個謝姓女駕駛"},{"start":20239.235,"end":20240.196,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":20260.472,"end":20270.18,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二 »:委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二゚委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二゚委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二゚委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二゚委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二゚委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二゚委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二゚委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二゚委員黃"},{"start":20289.075,"end":20306.901,"text":"在比較這個制度比較吊詭的地方就是我我取得自用大客車的駕照三個月在等待期的時候也沒有相對應的值錢訓練他就直接可以取得職業大客車的駕照這是讓我們擔憂了所以部長不知道你有沒有了解到國外的職業考照的加訓制度嗎"},{"start":20307.481,"end":20332.673,"text":"是,報告委員其實這個部分的議題有蠻多的觀點跟看法那目前我們交通部正在整合您剛剛一開始所破題的其實沒有錯就是說整個考照的制度是需要改革那目前公路局這邊也已經召集了各個相關的人包含一些學者也好或者是路權團體等等大家一起來討論就是到底還缺了哪些需要加進去的部分我們趕快把它加進去"},{"start":20332.833,"end":20356.058,"text":"你們都已經有出國去考察下一頁可不可以看一下國外的你看美國他們的是學科加數科總共305小時我們只有81小時這就很大的落差你把不定時車站放在路面上當中去跑的時候有時候傷害的是人命我覺得不應該用人命來買我們政府的法規歐盟也是280小時而且他們有回訊那這個回訊呢35小時5年平均一年7小時"},{"start":20362.779,"end":20384.599,"text":"我們也有啊可是問題是六小時三年的話一年才兩小時而且坐在那邊聽課跟他的實務經驗到底有沒有被累計我覺得有點擔憂下一件最後就希望江部這邊是不是可以盡速改革我們的大客車的駕照的考訓制度這上次也提過而且最好事實上是學習跟值錢訓練都要並進還要改善題目"},{"start":20387.661,"end":20389.985,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":20405.828,"end":20406.248,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、゚"},{"start":20436.53,"end":20450.937,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來有請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在馬文君委員馬文君馬文君委員不在"},{"start":20452.438,"end":20473.036,"text":"接下來請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在黃國昌委員、黃國昌、黃國昌委員不在邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在接下來請陳佩瑜委員發言"},{"start":20478.361,"end":20481.214,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請部長好 陳部長好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":20488.117,"end":20508.278,"text":"好部長午安辛苦了今天早上一路下來有非常多委員已經跟您請教過關於這個棒球的事情那我就是再跟您確定一個細節我知道你們有討論到今天晚上會公布有沒有包機有沒有相關的方案那我們來往下直接看好了來再下一張好再下一張這個PTT上昨天晚上"},{"start":20508.979,"end":20524.315,"text":"凌晨1點半就有熱心的網友在問我們把球團28人名單加上教練團如果都要讓他們做商務艙要38人可是這還不含可能還有後勤支援不管是心理師、營養師、體能教練等等"},{"start":20527.018,"end":20547.187,"text":"熱心的網友還幫忙盤點這個飛機的型號說如果是什麼呢只能做多少個位置長榮只能包B77W啊點點點點點這樣但我想要問一下當然在台灣現行的法規範當中只有澳亞運可以做商務艙對吧 這個部長你應該知道但是這一次我覺得這麼多"},{"start":20548.807,"end":20565.24,"text":"榮耀在這群球員身上這麼多大家的關心那我知道他們明天已經要出發了飛機應該算是已經訂好了但是有沒有可能透過部長這邊的協助讓他們有更餘裕更寬敞的空間搭飛機到日本去然後目前你所掌握到他們這個訂的飛機的進度是什麼"},{"start":20567.93,"end":20585.516,"text":"報告委員這個是國家的喜事所以很多的民眾都相當的關注我們一方面在解決民眾現在要去東京訂不到機位的問題對這個謝謝部長我也很想去國際航空大家已經有在努力我聽說長榮航空也有提出這個包機的申請正在跟日本提出申請"},{"start":20586.596,"end":20604.78,"text":"那另外針對我們的這個求援的部分我相信華航一定會提供很充足的協助這個部分雖然是教育部他們會主要去協調這件事情但是我們交通部也會去協調華航盡量提供充足的協助可以給我們的求援讓他們可以更餘裕的方式可以去日本"},{"start":20605.12,"end":20628.655,"text":"好,那我想還是要請部長持續跟教育部跟華航這邊確定我們的團員來回的這個飛機的部分要讓他們更有餘裕然後這是全台灣人的期待好,那最後一個我想我時間有限我想要跟部長談一個部長您上任剛不久你一定不知道其實我們台灣經濟部財政部相關的國營事業都有相關的運動團隊的支持很可惜在我們教導"},{"start":20629.255,"end":20654.542,"text":"交通部底下有郵政、有台鐵、有港務、有淘機但長年以來我們都沒有自主運動團隊這件事情部長你過去來自台中你自己覺得有沒有機會在您任內我們去促成郵政、台鐵、港務、淘機的自主運動團隊讓國公營事業的系統在這件事情上一樣支持國內體育發展支持國內的選手支持更多全民運動的可能性"},{"start":20655.262,"end":20680.71,"text":"好,報告委員這個全民運動是相當重要的課題啦齁那我也是第一次聽到委員有在質詢這樣子的話題那我回去也瞭解一下郵政公司跟台鐵還有港務還有淘機為什麼他們過去都沒有針對這個相關的運動來做補助或者是自己來組球隊啦齁這個部分我先去瞭解那當然如果可以支持運動這絕對是好事我也會來跟他們溝通看有沒有機會可以來支持我們相關的運動還有我們的運動員"},{"start":20682.651,"end":20704.659,"text":"那我確實我們在交通化委員會我們常年關注很多運動的題目可是當我們把運動的題目跟隨著運動部要升格體育署要升格成運動部之後我們更全面去檢視相關的問題所以我們發現交通部有這個可能性所以我當成今天就來這裡跟部長許願許這個願那部長剛已經正面的承諾說會回去跟相關機關討論那是不是有機會在一個月裡面給我們你們開完會議之後的一些討論那當然很難"},{"start":20711.462,"end":20711.522,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員。"},{"start":20742.674,"end":20749.156,"text":"好接下來有請葉元之委員葉元之葉元之委員不在"},{"start":20751.257,"end":20776.644,"text":"好,今天我們登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢,做以下決議。第一,報告及詢答完畢。第二,委員鄭正權、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄片並刊登公報。第三,委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分,請相關的機關盡速以書面資料答覆。第四,"},{"start":20778.475,"end":20791.544,"text":"討論事項第一案也就是各委員所提道交條例修正的一個版本等待我們行政院的交通部的版本進來之後另擇期繼續審查"},{"start":20794.09,"end":20817.341,"text":"好接下來因為我們要審查發展觀光條例齁我們現在休息五分鐘齁來佈置一下場地讓這個桌面上不該有的文件要換成我們相關的一些法條齁那也請現場今天所有列席的官員齁跟本條例無關的人員可以先席離席謝謝好現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":20830.03,"end":20834.873,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":21368.442,"end":21368.642,"text":"好 我們繼續開會"},{"start":21370.646,"end":21382.713,"text":"接下來我們接續審查發展觀光條例的逐條討論現在進行協商依各提案條次順序進行討論並同時請議事人員宣讀條文如有相關的修正動議附帶決議一併宣讀"},{"start":21394.94,"end":21409.701,"text":"好,接著我們進行《發展觀光條例》的協商交通部有提供建議修正的條文內容說明大家都拿到了嘛那個白色的這一本還有有一個交通部"},{"start":21411.003,"end":21425.072,"text":"針對我們各委員提供的條次他有做一個說明好我們就開始協商首先針對第二條來第二條部分是不是先請交通部來說明報告稿委各位委員就是建議維持現行條文就不修訂就不涉及到那個相關的增訂所以特別報告"},{"start":21441.023,"end":21455.817,"text":"針對特徵基礎事務的消息有信而見來我們第二條有提的委員、副委員跟陳雪生委員第二條的條文那個提案人雪生委員有貿易建議是第70條是2嘛那這個就不算是2那後面的"},{"start":21464.165,"end":21469.928,"text":"將在114年1月20日起外國特定對象住所,像國際醫療館、教護櫃館、勞工、醫療中心等職業單位。那麼為什麼呢?因為這裡面關係到家庭生計等等,"},{"start":21480.372,"end":21506.672,"text":"雖然9年過去了但是呢但是這個大家都努力了齁時間還稍微不夠啦齁是不是可以展言展言5年啦本來10年嘛希望展言5年謝謝不管有沒有展言其實都不需要再另外定名詞啦跟學生文章好我們來聚焦一下齁第二條我們兩個版本修正的條文應該是增略第10項"},{"start":21507.893,"end":21526.924,"text":"特殊對象住宿對不對他第二條條文是這樣我說他們提案提案的部分有4位委員提案那第二條的一個部分是最主要是第這是要第10項嗎裡面增加特定對象住宿多一個類別那這個的部分請大家來參閱我們提案的那個表"},{"start":21536.69,"end":21545.438,"text":"阿針對於這個部份我們交通部我們觀光署是說建議不要加是不是對因為現行的條文都已經名詞解釋都已經很清楚不用再為這一類來增加一個解釋了好那各位有什麼其他的建議"},{"start":21555.508,"end":21567.779,"text":"我們三大行業裡面旅行業、旅館業、遊樂區業裡面旅館業的觀光旅館、一般旅館跟民宿都有定義慶祝所以今夜就不用再等你了好 那如果這一條是最主要是增訂"},{"start":21577.228,"end":21589.311,"text":"特殊﹑特定的對象住宿﹑這是第二條那這個部分只是為了70條所以後面70條但是不管他延或不延期都不需要增添那這樣好吧如果我們第二條維持現行條文各位有沒有其他的意見不同的意見"},{"start":21607.937,"end":21630.377,"text":"第二條就是說不需要在定義的時候再增加一個特殊的這個好不好因為可能現在問題點不是這樣好不好如果有時間他後面法條可以再怎麼樣修再來進修因為如果後面的話可以給那個展演的一個實踐的話那第二條就相對就比較沒有關係"},{"start":21632.399,"end":21646.63,"text":"委員吳令華等20人提案第55條,這審訟要盡量考慮,也針對自主、無令、管理、安排、保留。委員吳令華等20人提案第55條,這審訟要盡量考慮,也針對自主、無令、管理、安排、保留。委員吳令華等20人提案第55條,這審訟要盡量考慮,也針對自主、無令、管理、安排、保留。委員吳令華等20人提案第55條,這審訟要盡量考慮,也針對自主、無令、管理、安排、保留。委員吳令華等20人提案第55條,這審訟要盡量考慮,也針對自主、無"},{"start":21653.975,"end":21667.404,"text":"的非正規旅行者：好,接下來第四條針對第四條的部分就依委員徐宇貞等20人提案修正那就把觀光局修正為觀光署好,第四條應該比較沒有爭議就是現在已經變署了就是把局這個字改成署"},{"start":21676.03,"end":21679.134,"text":"好,各位有沒有其他意見?好,那我們就趙徐宇貞委員修正通過接下來第36條第36條提案人林"},{"start":21694.452,"end":21716.733,"text":"您見其委員。來,36條,我們光順道一訣,隨遇海岸,建議維持原條文。還是禁止。那現在委員提的條文的差異在哪裡,能不能簡單說明一下。禁止跟停止。剛剛也特別跟委員報告了,現在我們國家的法律因為隨遇的那個變化很大。"},{"start":21717.193,"end":21730.025,"text":"我們的海象記憶不是很好所以還是用禁止因為一般各國也是用禁止沒有說用警告就在發生所以還是用一次禁止對,禁止才能發生"},{"start":21735.089,"end":21762.305,"text":"好 因為提案的委員不在現場這個部分原則上是把禁止水域有要修成警示水域警示跟限制在法定上用意應該差很多吧對 差很多所以還是要禁止才能夠進行這個法源的處理所以這個還是要禁止拜託各位委員維持現行條文所以現行的條文是比較嚴格的"},{"start":21764.207,"end":21764.647,"text":"何俊仲委員"},{"start":21778.467,"end":21786.008,"text":"謝謝我過去曾經數次都在關心有關這個水域的一個這個安全的問題因為這個在我們很多的這個旅遊觀光的景點也好或者是新興的觀光產業也好這個其實是現在很多不管是旅客、國內外的觀光客甚至自己國人的這個在旅遊觀光的這個一些套裝行程的一些安全的問題那安全我覺得是最重要的"},{"start":21806.992,"end":21812.078,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 何俊仁、何俊仁、何俊仁、何俊仁、何俊仁、何俊仁、何俊仁、何俊仁"},{"start":21827.475,"end":21829.276,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":21844.221,"end":21861.893,"text":"那未來的這個處罰的那個不同程度的處罰第一個也很難界定有所依據第二個未來一定會有爭議一定會有爭議那我覺得最重要的是我們不希望說以現在比較嚴格的法律罰休的反而比較寬鬆的話那未來發生了問題跟危險"},{"start":21866.257,"end":21874.554,"text":"人生安全、生命安全誰來負責任我覺得這個牽涉很廣我還是建議維持現行的一個條文好不好謝謝"},{"start":21875.831,"end":21898.67,"text":"好 謝謝何俊臻委員接下來許智傑委員謝謝我贊成那個觀光署跟何先生其實海域那麼大其實大概開放的幾個地方就是開放然後那個地方才會有維護安全的人員其他的就是你沒有辦法到處都用警示那個很危險所以還是禁止比較好適當可以開放的地方再開放再派駐那個安全人員謝謝"},{"start":21901.141,"end":21923.197,"text":"好 因為這一條各位委員還有什麼意見李崑哲委員這個水域禁止區域現在想要修法調整為水域的警示區域但是我還是認為海流危險區域的禁止遊客從事遊棄活動仍然還是有其必要性以上"},{"start":21925.137,"end":21936.859,"text":"好陳雪生委員現在用鏡子都有很多人跳水自己不想活了那也沒辦法你用警示那個有什麼意義我支持觀光署"},{"start":21938.936,"end":21957.472,"text":"好 那這一條如果沒有其他意見我覺得大家的共識因為台灣四周都是水域啦那這個部分要如果放鬆或者開放的話其實是不確定性很高那這個部分我們是不是就維持現行條文"},{"start":21959.233,"end":21985.087,"text":"好不好觀光署的條文有沒有其他意見沒有反對意見好那這一條我們就維持現行的條文謝謝委員接下來53條有關53條的部分我們就尊重這個委員王美惠等16人提案修正那麼主要是條文的上限我們做一些調整"},{"start":21986.267,"end":22001.281,"text":"本來上限是罰則是15萬以下的現在改成30萬本來是50萬以下的改成150萬那當然配合上限跟下限的調整還有廢止的部分呢有關於就是"},{"start":22001.801,"end":22024.358,"text":"已經停止營業了或者是一部或全部的處分他仍然是繼續營業的話我們就罰原以前只有50萬以上但是沒有一個上限所以我們上上限修正為200萬元以下我們就按照委員的意思做一些調整好就是你這邊有一個你們自己的對照表嘛五三條"},{"start":22025.734,"end":22051.741,"text":"那你現在是因為他們兩位委員提的版本文字還是有些不同你有去是都有對照都基本上都是一字所以就變成你這個這個的版本是不是那因為現在兩位委員提的版本基本上觀光署是朝向同意的立場但是把兩位會診在這張白色的第53條是這個觀光署的一個版本請大家參閱一下"},{"start":22053.081,"end":22074.069,"text":"就是罰則有提高的對不對是罰則double對提高原則上是double對好那第53條看我們所有的委員有沒有意見最主要是針對於這些旅館的行業如果有這個侮辱到國家的榮譽損害國家的利益"},{"start":22075.089,"end":22095.238,"text":"或者防害這個良善的風俗或者欺騙旅客的行為做這樣的一個處罰比原法規大概提高了一倍好 那剛剛我們觀光署說明各位委員有沒有什麼補充的那如果黃健豪委員"},{"start":22098.357,"end":22118.459,"text":"謝謝昭偉。我想要請觀光署說明一下過去的案例裡面當然這個欺騙旅客、違反防礙三難逢火這個常見那過去案例裡面什麼是墊入國家榮譽、損害國家利益在旅宿業他們要哪些行為樣態屬於這個部分可不可以請觀光署說明一下"},{"start":22120.394,"end":22146.545,"text":"會被裁罰的標準我們目前裁罰引用這個並沒有但是就是說這個部分是整個在通案裡面事實上是一部分也就是觀光旅館或者是一般旅館或旅行業、遊樂區業這個部分呢他們大概需要有遵守四件事情第一個要以國家榮譽為至上第二個希望以國家利益為利益"},{"start":22147.185,"end":22169.911,"text":"第三、希望能夠維護善良風俗第四、不可以有詐騙旅客行為原則上是在這四個規範之下那引述的部分當然就是按照實際的這個材料比如說國際公安旅館是我們公安署那種公安署認定那其他的話就是由22個縣市政府來做認定以上簡單的補充報告"},{"start":22171.531,"end":22193.561,"text":"好 陳雪真委員電疫國家榮譽 這太籠統了吧我舉個例子 譬如說總派國家利益前幾天那個老闆在天安門講中華民國萬歲關三天是不是那如果這個講說中華人民共和國萬歲這個就要罰兩百萬耶是不是 這個有道理嗎"},{"start":22197.222,"end":22226.482,"text":"我覺得這些字眼,這個法源已經夠重了。已經夠重了,有一些這些字眼不要了。既然在台灣這個言論大家都很自由了,是不是?你在這裡面你要套上這個帽子,那你怎麼套我是不知道。什麼叫國家利益?國家利益,國家利益,像我講祖國的話那就是國家利益了,問題就來了,是不是?"},{"start":22227.584,"end":22232.558,"text":"這隨便個帽子我覺得這個政治上的一些語言不要盡量不要在這文字上出現好不好謝謝"},{"start":22234.374,"end":22256.97,"text":"跟學生們報告一下他這是一個概念性的譬如說我們有很多旅行團如果在外面丟包不負責任或是在外面呢就是把台灣踐踏在腳底下我覺得都是不當的行為但是我們也目前為止是建議啦這個法令是這樣這幾個字我不同意"},{"start":22259.771,"end":22277.296,"text":"這損害國家利益這帽子戴得太大了而且太嚴謹了你把鄰居車要逼到什麼程度啊是不是起碼給人家一點空間嘛台灣不是很自由嗎是不是搞得不要跟大陸一樣啊我們講大陸很專制台灣也滿專制的樣子看起來啊是不是越來越專制了"},{"start":22280.105,"end":22299.644,"text":"對 這個條文就是從開始立法的時候就有這幾個字眼我不同意好 那個因為兩位委員提的版本沒有修到這個如果說有委員要提修正動議或未來在協商的時候你版本來得及進來針對於剛剛的字眼可以來修因為畢竟我們只能"},{"start":22300.285,"end":22317.198,"text":"在修這個兩位委員的一個提案最主要是前罰款的方向但是剛剛陳學仁委員講的我覺得也蠻好應該要明確一下啦不然要你們自己的細則或者說處理的一些規則主要是處理哪幾項你還是要稍微具體一點"},{"start":22317.958,"end":22337.705,"text":"不然的話大家也不知道怎麼回事但是今天修法的部分如果有人提修正或者未來再提另外的動議的時候我們再進行這方面的討論來黃健豪委員我剛剛六點時間查了一下過往案例雖然觀光署剛剛說沒有但是2006年的時候有一個新聞講說有一團大陸客他們來台灣的時候他們的名義是購物團"},{"start":22343.247,"end":22369.819,"text":"後來團員不想去逛珠寶店想要自由行所以就跟這個當初報名的時候形然不符所以後來團員就後來還積欠旅費那所以旅行社就把這個大陸團這一批人呢帶到警察局去處理然後把人丟報到警察局後來當時的觀光局認為這個行為已經導致了墊入國家榮譽損害國家利益並裁罰旅行社15萬元這就是我查到案例那所以我是要問說"},{"start":22371.36,"end":22384.249,"text":"把觀光客電報到警察局然後結果觀光局罰我們的旅行團15萬元這件事情的原因是因為電入國家榮譽、損害國家利益我是說這個裁量是不是有點泛濫就是說這個標準是什麼"},{"start":22386.109,"end":22411.877,"text":"所以才問說到底這個法律過了之後過去有這樣的案例那以後呢如果今天因為所以我想這個當初這個委員特別訂了要經法院判決因為我想墊入國家的榮譽損害國家利益是一個很大的一件事情那如果把人丟包到丟包到就把觀光客丟去警察局讓警察局去處理然後結果觀光局去裁罰旅行團說你這個行為是墊入國家榮譽損害國家利益這件事情就是很奇怪很像民事糾紛變成上香到"},{"start":22412.817,"end":22427.782,"text":"國家層次的所以這部分我還是希望說觀光署能夠考量一下到底訂這個修這個法案先要把這個金額又加高了之後會不會有更多爭議出現以上好謝謝黃健豪委員來部長你再說明一下吧這如果是原本之前就有的條文吼今天今天的討論"},{"start":22438.925,"end":22449.962,"text":"今天的討論如果是針對金額的話是不是大家針對這個金額的部分下去做討論那原本有的這個條文的內容如果大家想要再做修正那就另外再來討論好不好"},{"start":22451.449,"end":22472.065,"text":"林國臣委員我贊成陳雪生委員他的看法損害國家利益其實這些逛逛旅遊業其實沒有什麼國家利益不國家利益這個部分我贊成部長剛才所講的因為我們有委員提出來是金額的部分來修正"},{"start":22472.685,"end":22492.192,"text":"但是如果是發現到陳雪生委員這個部分我還是建議今天就把它列入紀錄就是損害國家利益請主管機關要講清楚然後這些東西要刪除的話提另外一個案子去把它修掉這也是可以"},{"start":22493.732,"end":22519.766,"text":"那所以應該是今天我們委員提案就是金額的部分是否得當是否可行那我們針對這個那今天等一下可能寫生委員可以提出口頭的這些動議然後順便在政黨協商或什麼的時候再來修這樣可能比較符合邏輯這是我的建議"},{"start":22520.746,"end":22536.814,"text":"好 謝謝這個部分我想這樣在條文的罰則的部分委員感覺比較沒有爭議但是在有一些處罰的行為到底如何定義的部分"},{"start":22537.634,"end":22548.305,"text":"其實可能一下也很難定義的到百分之百清楚那是不是這一條呢本身在修法的這個兩位委員主要提的項目他基本上沒有什麼爭議我們是不是這個部分讓這個條53條連同"},{"start":22554.011,"end":22567.621,"text":"我們觀光署提的一個版本我們保留送院會協商請協商這個時候之前再請相關的委員如果有另外53條的一個版本修正版本可以來做一併的一個處理就是保留送院會協商第53條好保留保留好"},{"start":22576.209,"end":22592.84,"text":"那我們這條就保留送卷會協商如果各位委員還有什麼其他的意見建議還是用提案的方式來做處理保留啦因為你講不清楚啊因為哪個定義是什麼你實在這個狀況五花八門你也講不清楚"},{"start":22594.654,"end":22599.419,"text":"因為本來觀光局的條文沒有提到那個經法院判決的部分所以我就沒有發言"},{"start":22612.452,"end":22640.302,"text":"那因為現在要保留所以我想說我還是表達一下司法院的意見就是徐宇貞委員有提到經法院判決確定這個部分因為墊入國家榮譽和損害國家利益這個要件我們沒辦法對應到特定的特定的規定的條文所以如果只規定經法院判決確定的話我們可能沒辦法確定說這個是指說是刑事判決確定還是也包含刑事包含民事或行政的判決確定所以如果如果要增訂這樣子相關的規定的話可能要"},{"start":22640.902,"end":22651.193,"text":"看是不是在立法理由中說明一下舉個例子說到底這邊指的經法院判決確定到底是什麼樣的情形以上跟各位有報告 謝謝好 謝謝司法院的說明"},{"start":22660.641,"end":22688.537,"text":"來 蔡委員協商的時候司法院在講因為就送協商了嘛好所以要麻煩你再來一次啦不好意思好 第53條我們就保留送院會協商協商的部分也請我們司法院來派代表列席來說明那委員對於其他的內容53條的部分有意見也建議透過我們提案修法的程序一併在二讀的時候來討論"},{"start":22691.742,"end":22692.428,"text":"好那接下來第54條"},{"start":22695.703,"end":22723.162,"text":"吳四條觀光局有沒有什麼意見針對吳四條我們就競表同意就是他是把15萬的上限修正為30萬以下吳四條是罰什麼是針對於我們觀光旅館或一般旅館還有旅行業是涉及到有關於第37條檢查不通過的時候我們限期改善限期不改善的時候我們再做處罰"},{"start":22724.943,"end":22725.203,"text":"五十五條"},{"start":22750.135,"end":22764.515,"text":"針對第55條是關於一些罰則剛剛那個吳立華委員有特別提到他認為是說新的法律修正的時候把民宿的部分也併進來而且他的罰則太高"},{"start":22765.316,"end":22778.371,"text":"也就是對觀光旅館、一般旅館最上限是200萬那對民宿的話他認為應該要減半所以就是民宿的部分就簡略修正為100萬"},{"start":22780.453,"end":22798.129,"text":"那這個條文的部分就按照王美惠委員這個為基礎那我們把原來的原條文原條文裡面有未依本條例這個未依本條例這個領取登記證而經營這個民宿者"},{"start":22802.453,"end":22826.173,"text":"處新台幣10萬元以上、100萬元以下法源並勒令歇業把這段放進這個第三項就是網美會委員的第三項做補充以上 以上說明好 各位委員對這條有沒有什麼意見那你文字的部分要調整好好不好 調整好"},{"start":22828.359,"end":22846.187,"text":"那就是按照王美惠委員他提的版本然後修正就等於民宿一些比較小型的業者的部分10萬到200萬之間是不是改成10萬到100萬10萬到100萬之間嘛是就是他的罰則比較稍微稍微緩和一點是"},{"start":22847.486,"end":22872.441,"text":"好 那各位委員針對於第55條的修正內容按照網美會的版本然後修正民宿等業者的罰則降低這部分各位有沒有其他意見如果也沒有反對的意見那我們就按照網美會委員的版本修正後通過"},{"start":22878.001,"end":22898.999,"text":"好接下來55之一條針對55之一條是我們是建議按照網美會等16位委員的提案修正那修正的條文如次就是為依本條例規定領取觀光旅館業、旅行業"},{"start":22900.381,"end":22915.341,"text":"觀光、遊樂業營業執照或旅館業民宿登記證以廣告物、出版品、廣播、電視、電子訊號、電腦、網路或其它媒體等散布"},{"start":22916.923,"end":22931.783,"text":"鄧浩波頌或刊登營業之訊息者處新台幣10萬元以上、150萬元以下華元並令限其移除、藉其不履行者得按次處罰。"},{"start":22936.058,"end":22964.393,"text":"好那這個版本呢也是調整那個法則修正過對修正這只要是散佈假消息還是虛偽的消息是不是這個意思對都有違法好陳雪真委員是不是請公關署說明一下得按次處罰什麼意思按次是每天一次還是每天五次還是一個月一次按次什麼意思請說明一下"},{"start":22968.686,"end":22980.413,"text":"就是已經處罰的時候就是他還在違規就可以再處罰一次對對如果是抓到以後他沒有改善再繼續罰"},{"start":22981.661,"end":22997.749,"text":"侵犯案次什麼案次?案次嗎?沒有,譬如說他罰是10萬元嘛你今天罰他10萬塊嘛對那明天還沒有改善都沒有改善明天沒有改善再罰譬如說一定是合理的期限譬如說你會給他期限嘛對"},{"start":23000.222,"end":23015.888,"text":"那你要給他期限有有有有你要寫一一有有限期限期對你要你要想說在期限之內沒有沒有沒有那個的話就借其不履行者的意思你這裡可能要加一兩個字吧不然裡面有點語病喔"},{"start":23017.769,"end":23042.629,"text":"對,好,原來就不履行,那借其不履行,好那因為現在觀光業很慘,我們這個自己這個會不會大家都有份,我不清楚不過因為現在一扯到網路跟訊息有時候我可能做了一次錯誤的訊息傳遞我被罰了一次,其實網路訊息很難回收"},{"start":23043.786,"end":23043.926,"text":"林國臣委員"},{"start":23057.694,"end":23080.695,"text":"那個署長這裡可能啊因為這種東西現在這個電子時代特別啊尤其是這個網路等等還有旅館業等等觀光旅館業這個還比較OK但是有些旅館業他是用第四台那如果第四台撥撞的東西他也要被劃"},{"start":23081.736,"end":23110.635,"text":"所以這個應該要較為明確化啦那金額我沒有意見但是這個部分是不是也請署長要把它講清楚不要說這個法條過了以後那隨時第四台所刊登的不雅或等等這些東西他們還是要去授法這個對各旅館業或其他行業是不公平的所以這個是不是也請說明一下"},{"start":23113.938,"end":23132.61,"text":"應該是一體兩面啦我們通常都是以保障合法業者為優先嘛對那如果是非法業者那過去他就是他都是第四台那如果第四台所播放的"},{"start":23133.581,"end":23150.358,"text":"的問題,那還是要旅館業來承擔嗎?這個是不是要把它講清楚?那是Cable的部分,因為這邊看起來應該是沒有這個意思嘛他是播送或刊登營業資訊這條其實很簡單啦,意思就是說"},{"start":23157.785,"end":23175.219,"text":"如果你有那種詐騙根本不是經營旅館或者你的旅館根本就是一個違章或者甚至是什麼詐騙你跑去登廣告我抓到之後就叫你現起譬如說一天內把他移除你不移除還繼續登我就連續處罰"},{"start":23177.028,"end":23198.825,"text":"阿如果,所以他這意思是什麼?Cable你要登人家旅館的廣告你就要叫他把旅館的執照拿給他看他才可以來,他才可以登嘛阿你當然你不,你不拿執照來看然後讓他登,那當然你這個Cable就會有問題嘛好,來,郭先生你聽得懂嗎?這條是在規範這樣而已阿規範這樣大家認定說以前喔發生了事啦現在大家對詐騙深惡痛絕"},{"start":23204.749,"end":23206.69,"text":"王美惠委員等16人提案修正的版本再加上"},{"start":23232.859,"end":23259.255,"text":"主席他這個應該他寫這樣我們就會誤解連我們看完以後我就會誤解你要很明確這是假訊息你要很明確所以我是覺得這裡面內容像副院長解釋了以後我就聽得很清楚可是文字裡面就有一點不太清楚所以這個還是要建議是不是有所考慮"},{"start":23262.571,"end":23291.142,"text":"好他這個55之一條其實前面也是有寫清楚啦未依本條例規定取得觀光旅館旅行業觀光遊樂業的營業執照就是他沒有取得這個營業執照就是違規營業然後或旅館業民宿業登記證也就是說他根本不是他沒有辦營業的這些這些的店家或者商家因為他根本沒有這個執照"},{"start":23292.142,"end":23311.449,"text":"那所以我是覺得應該可以啦各位還沒有反對意見我是可以就好那就我們就剛剛參照黃美惠委員的一個版本加上我們這個觀光署的一個意見修正後通過感謝感謝"},{"start":23317.42,"end":23326.51,"text":"五十五之三條請觀光署五十五之三條也取得五委員的同意就不予增訂"},{"start":23329.662,"end":23358.762,"text":"確定喔對對確定日租套房的部分另外訂他已經同意了就不訂訂日租套房的管理要點因為55之3條是新增的一個條文那就確實去溝通協調那如果五位委員等20人的提案也同意不予增訂那這個部分我們就是不予增訂這樣通過各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":23360.503,"end":23372.734,"text":"好 沒有 我們接下來下一條第57條針對第57條我們就建議依委員王美惠等16人的提案來修正"},{"start":23379.546,"end":23404.763,"text":"主要是針對於這個履約保險跟責任保險的部分他是處新台幣3萬元以上50萬元以下的花園那麼也是做一些修正那其他的都其他的條文都沒有變好那對第57條的修正條文各位委員有沒有其他的意見因為過去那個很多大家交了錢就他連保險都沒保那這個是不行啦這個"},{"start":23406.144,"end":23413.371,"text":"好,那我們第57條如果各個委員沒有其他意見我們就依照黃美惠委員點等16人提案"},{"start":23415.365,"end":23443.944,"text":"有修正嗎?修正後通過接下來第60條針對60條部分還是請各位委員能夠支持也就是不予修正也就是它相關的法則是有三個部分第一個部分是對於民眾第二個部分是對於業者第三個部分是對於保險所以這三方我們是建議都不修正"},{"start":23445.585,"end":23458.4,"text":"原本的修正是朝向減少罰款是不是本來是希望一萬塊減少到九千塊後來委員也認為說這個修改的比較幅度很小所以我們建議是維持不變"},{"start":23461.107,"end":23483.354,"text":"好 那各位可以看一下第60條的條文是水域跟剛剛有講警禁止或者警示的這個部分有連帶這個部分應該也是應該是林委員提案嘛林委員提案那就可能比較減輕相關在水域各個個體的相關的罰則"},{"start":23486.375,"end":23486.835,"text":"七十之二條"},{"start":23510.27,"end":23528.7,"text":"也針對70支二條總共有4個案包括徐宇甄徐委員還有傅根吉副委員陳雪生陳委員還有游浩游委員都提到那我們是建議啦綜合考量剛剛在答詢中有特別做一些說明也就70條這案呢本條例"},{"start":23531.141,"end":23546.84,"text":"中華民國104年1月22日修正實行前非以營利為目的的而且供特定對象住宿之場所而有營利之事實者應於一百"},{"start":23548.584,"end":23572.39,"text":"一十年12月31日前向地方主管機關申請旅館業登記領取登記證及專用標示使得繼續營業也就將現行的法律所說的10年仍然是以10年的精神來做修正那於114年年底以上請求"},{"start":23575.39,"end":23586.486,"text":"好 我們請提案人這邊有兩位陳傑森委員跟永浩委員要不要宣布一下這個我剛才已經講過了嘛你九年了嘛齁"},{"start":23588.294,"end":23615.082,"text":"你9年多的經驗到現在沒有顯現任何的成效啊你主管部門不應該勒令轉型啊阻斷特定對象住所住宿場所的生存剝奪這裡面有很多家庭的生存權工作權、產產權造成社會重大的成本成本負擔所以我建議修正為15年就增加5年的意思以上"},{"start":23616.021,"end":23642.637,"text":"好 油化委員那同樣的當初在疫情的期間那時候有提到在討論的時候這個其實往後給他們更充裕的時間因為他們也在持續地遞出申請也確實在想要讓他這個能夠順利地領取這個登記證他還能夠福道轉型那他確實是需要時間嘛那所以說也是一樣跟全學生委員一樣我們就是希望是到15年 謝謝"},{"start":23646.05,"end":23668.95,"text":"李崑哲委員接下來林國成委員謝謝昭偉不管是第二條或是70條之二這個部分當然是包含訂定特定旅宿業或是延長非以營利為目的且供特定對象住宿之場所而有營利之事實者取得旅館業執照的實現"},{"start":23671.252,"end":23695.314,"text":"那這個案子其實當初是有它的背景存在我記得當時是葉怡君委員提案的那也在我們交通委員會進行討論那其實當時最大的因素是什麼呢就是在於非以營利為目的且供特定對象住宿之場所而有營利之事實的場所這個是有不公平競爭的問題"},{"start":23696.835,"end":23718.713,"text":"而且住宿對象實際上是非特定對象那在實務上其實是對合法的旅宿業是非常不公平的所以當然也是希望這些場所能夠積極的轉正所以才有10年的這個實現來去取得旅館業的登記"},{"start":23719.634,"end":23745.354,"text":"那現在其實調資後我們部分先進同仁有說要修正就是再5年讓業者轉正那其實我們來看在目前我們對於現在已經有停業而且轉做其他的使用總共有4個地方那完成旅館登記業登記的有9個地方"},{"start":23746.435,"end":23770.507,"text":"難若依規費法收取規費有16處及香客大樓水洗布施有3處還有12處在落日期限內已經取得旅館業登記證對這些依法辦事的這些單位如果修正是否公平大家必須要來討論一下"},{"start":23772.088,"end":23775.583,"text":"那我想請教的是這段"},{"start":23777.25,"end":23801.528,"text":"我們來看狀況如果說你要確定再給予延長那假如是要給目前還有列管的21家你要給他他有意轉正但是無法在落日的期內完成的業者是否要給他們一些時間延長5年那這21家能夠順利轉正嗎這個等一下署長來說明一下那"},{"start":23806.724,"end":23831.107,"text":"五年如果再不夠是不是還有再下個五年這個關我主要的說明那我比較想請教這21家在目前這10年內他有任何轉正的動作嗎他有任何轉正的動作嗎如果延程三年五年有多少家可以轉正還是說這21家"},{"start":23833.383,"end":23840.975,"text":"到底有沒有轉正的可能性以上請簡單說明請林國正委員發言完我們一併回答"},{"start":23843.038,"end":23865.19,"text":"我想這個問題當然因為過去也有討論過但是我在想這些正牌的旅館業跟非正牌的這些休閒的這個地方第一 客人那種消費群完全是不一樣"},{"start":23866.03,"end":23880.817,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健"},{"start":23881.917,"end":23900.445,"text":"一部分的緩衝期那確確實實也有一部分的人把它合法化所以我們陳雪生委員還有幾個委員提出這個可以延長基本上我認為建議部長跟署長這裡應該要吵了這些那如何來擬"},{"start":23902.046,"end":23917.426,"text":"如何來擬要考慮到確確實實這幾年當中他想要做但是你時間太緊湊那其實我比較傾向再給一點時間讓他們那第二個我還是建議"},{"start":23918.487,"end":23934.053,"text":"如果你不轉正我有特別管理辦法來協助他如果我們這個辦法就不需要在法令上那你就可以特別像針對這些二十幾家這些來做管理辦法也起立"},{"start":23935.031,"end":23956.528,"text":"就像台北市的違章建築在83年以前它所成立的那我就用特別暫緩執行的這些東西這個這樣來解套可能就會比較辦法但是也不是說叫你們都不管理你們另外有一個特別管理的辦法是你們來制定"},{"start":23957.489,"end":23986.909,"text":"我比較主張因為有歷史淹源你現在說斬就斬這樣也不夠情理那如同有很多政府單位啊像這個幾個單位也是這種情形那如果你訂定特別管理辦法你們可以管理然後公安的問題來做管理這樣的話是可以解決這個問題那你們就盡量有辦法去有特別辦法去管理的時候"},{"start":23987.649,"end":24015.718,"text":"那自然而然輔導他們輔導他們就會比較比較有一個成效啦那當然也不是說你們我說實在的有些在辦法訂定的時候你們就依法有機去做這樣的話可能啊這個問題才會解決所以我還是贊成讓他們延長這些時間啊讓他們去做一些你們合法的這種管理的的這種制度好不好"},{"start":24017.421,"end":24043.774,"text":"好 那請那個署裡面先回答一下待會陳學生委員我先講一下好不好好 陳委員那個各位同仁齁光疫情去了3、4年啦當然剛才執政長委員所講的齁那有一些要轉型的他已經合法化了齁當然對他們是不公平的啦齁那問題有的範圍是小的有的範圍是大的齁"},{"start":24045.441,"end":24071.177,"text":"那疫情就去了三四年大家說真的疫情期間大家共體時間啊杜曉月非常辛苦的都度過了啦吼那今天如果你用快刀斬亂麻的方式就給我殺死刑都可以現在都可以死緩了現在是不是甚至都要出獄了這個案子有那麼嚴重嗎我是建議就是說我們交通部公安署啊"},{"start":24072.366,"end":24090.495,"text":"你應該確切的去輔導他讓他知道你這是不合法的你去輔導他當然我們現在是給他五年的時間剛才也有委員提出來說那我給你五年以後你這五年完了以後你是不是就我們就把你淘汰掉了是不是或是定落日條款等等"},{"start":24091.755,"end":24119.256,"text":"那我是覺得如果把他訂6月條款又太殘忍了一點齁我建議就是說公安署啊能夠拿出一點辦法來跟他們業者去聊一聊他們的困難在哪裡為什麼有一些人可以合法化了那你們有一些人呢還是無法進行那當然死骨不化了我們就沒辦法了齁我建議建議交通部啊能夠用比較緩和的手段來處理這個事情當然我知道"},{"start":24120.259,"end":24131.501,"text":"有一些公關旅館在抗議我也都了解問題希望大家共體時間因為每一個太陽都不太一樣好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":24134.349,"end":24152.81,"text":"好 來 我們署長來說明一下跟委員報告一下過去這10年期間確實不管是公安署或是公安局時代我們都跟22個縣市政府其實還算是蠻積極在做輔導的工作"},{"start":24155.012,"end":24180.809,"text":"那也確實有很多業者他就遵守法令規定我把它叫做也許是叫做模範生吧他們就早早就轉型了那或者是要退場他離開這個市場那現在確實有表達意願我們一定有做輔導的工作才能夠掌握還有意願說可能他時間需要一點時間而這一個需要一點時間的大概是21家"},{"start":24182.81,"end":24211.016,"text":"這21家裡面其實太陽裡面最多的就是教師會館國際英雄館跟救護團的青年活動中心那國際英雄館呢其實他們動作也都能夠配合也就是說希望能夠在這個法令規定之內能夠完成如果不能完成他就是退場對那我們看的這21家裡面有一半你再輔導也沒用因為他用地啊就不是旅館"},{"start":24212.677,"end":24222.944,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":24229.648,"end":24256.17,"text":"那當然他這個區域不同他的難度也會不大一樣那我們是希望是說剛剛在答詢的過程中部長也特別說好那我們在1月就是是不是就到12月維持原來的10年的基本原則所以我們覺得給大家給業者一年的時間我覺得應該是應該是算是合理的時間那其實主要是"},{"start":24257.111,"end":24285.973,"text":"用地的問題無解那個無解的問題你再給他5年可能還是一樣我想說以上還是做簡單那至於我還是有一個原理原則請各位委員能夠支持我們如果對例外管理還要再另外定一個辦法其實對在法令執行上來講並不是一個常態所以我們還是希望能夠回歸到這個發展觀光條例的基本精神去做管理的工作還是請各位委員能夠支持"},{"start":24287.345,"end":24310.892,"text":"我這邊也表達一下我個人的意見因為剛剛署長也特別說了大概有一半這個可能也沒辦法可是我們好關心另外一半施加就是他如果還要再拚他明明就有機會因為你們也看到了吧其實教師會館最多那當然相課大樓當然像青年活動中心勞工育樂中心其實都有啦那這個部分"},{"start":24311.889,"end":24331.367,"text":"他們說明年1月21號有12家有現金可以在這邊完成但是我們接觸到的他們也是在那個前後搞不好差一天就沒有了所以我們一說能夠來幫忙他第二個是說有意願要經營的另外21家你說有一半那我比較擔心有一半他也有意願嘛"},{"start":24332.13,"end":24337.372,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":24352.057,"end":24353.178,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":24382.698,"end":24410.456,"text":"教師會館甚至救國團有12家還有勞工娛樂中心他們其實都是手上一大堆的孩子然後一個一個處理當然因為疫情的關係我們也想說因為疫情真的是很多的工程很多的軟體都讓他們去研我也覺得他們有提這個的部分再讓他們有一點時間這是我個人的想法所以我是覺得希望能不能給他們多一點時間林備長委員"},{"start":24413.973,"end":24432.133,"text":"二、部長、署長、各位同仁如果說我們今天在修這個法的時候中間是沒有疫情的干擾那今天這個法修下來或許大家就比較沒有什麼爭議但是尷尬的是說這個疫情是不只是百年難得一見是幾百年難得一見的epidemic"},{"start":24432.914,"end":24455.51,"text":"全球都被波及到所以今天我們為什麼要修這個法也是因為例外不是因為說這個而且是既存在其事實疫情的影響導致說現在全球的通貨膨脹還有導致全球的原物料導致很多很多的不方便那這些這些這些我們現在看到這21家也好還是這些這些公司這些想要改想要變想要改改型的這些"},{"start":24456.49,"end":24477.865,"text":"長所也好,如果他們不想改,那自然他們就自然就是違法但是我們不是預設立場而是幫在這些願意轉型的這些場所上面給他們多一點時間因為疫情的原因所以他們沒有辦法實質的去獲得轉型所需要的時間跟手續所以在這邊我正同我們剛我們剛召委跟油化委員講的"},{"start":24479.026,"end":24485.153,"text":"主要是因為疫情這3年甚至影響甚至在3年以上所以我覺得應該要延長5年以上"},{"start":24489.858,"end":24515.576,"text":"好 謝謝召委我在想請這個部長跟署長再清楚說明一下因為事實上這10年前應該是葉宜金委員跟我那時候也在現場其實那時候我知道這個整個緣由所以有一個10年的一個過渡期願意讓這些單位可以趕快進行改善那到目前為止就我們掌握的大部分現在動都動不了"},{"start":24517.057,"end":24517.698,"text":"副副副副副"},{"start":24532.176,"end":24538.117,"text":"其實跟地方政府有很大的關係還有整個區域的規劃甚至有的是在山坡地、保育區裡面等等那這些沒有辦法改變的事實才會導致有好幾家到目前為止即使給了他10年他也沒辦法去改變沒有辦法合法"},{"start":24553.081,"end":24568.304,"text":"那這個問題我們第一個是透過修法延長時間就能夠解決的嗎那我希望部長跟署長這邊包括你們跟內政部有一些建築法規或者是跟農業部有一些地目的"},{"start":24570.338,"end":24585.09,"text":"連應該說跨部會的一個聯繫會議裡面到底有沒有就這件事情來幫忙協助輔導合法化能夠解套在這10年間我覺得第一個要說清楚我們是不是真的有努力了第二個"},{"start":24587.131,"end":24600.514,"text":"我印象中在剛剛你講的有一部分如果這10年間它可以合法的幾乎都轉型了包括就我知道的有一些教師會館也轉型了就是教育部向下它一間一間的檢討那有些景觀景光山莊或是新村之類的也在警政署的向下體系裡面也一家一家去檢討了能合法的它就合法了"},{"start":24611.977,"end":24627.634,"text":"沒有辦法合法的他就收掉像台中的國軍義雄館在國防部的檢討之下他也收了是退府會啦所以我的意思是說這個第一個要請交通部跟觀光署能夠掌握明確的訊息來說明給各位委員聽"},{"start":24629.196,"end":24657.054,"text":"第二個我也希望剛剛昭偉有提到湘克大樓的事情我們現在是做什麼處理就我的印象當中湘克大樓是不是在這一個的法案裡面的一個這個輔導合法化或者是我們現在用什麼樣的方式來做相關的規定我覺得一定要講清楚因為這樣子訊息才不會大家有所誤解好不好"},{"start":24658.664,"end":24683.685,"text":"好 謝謝何委員接下來許智傑委員再來游浩委員謝謝主席其實剛我聽署長講說21家嘛21家有一些是土地問題嘛到底是幾家啊已經在申請像那個主席講的也許差一兩天一兩個月的我們不至於那麼不通人情嘛"},{"start":24684.819,"end":24703.744,"text":"阿不過就是說我們就把那個21家攤開來看大概就知道啦那如果個別該處理的也許差1、2個月的那個應該也不用修法啦當然如果說真的是差1、2個月很多間那我們看實際的情況再來做決定好不好"},{"start":24706.004,"end":24733.864,"text":"好 謝謝徐委員接下來游浩委員就是剛才有提到就是我想想執政黨的委員其實也提到就是協助輔導嘛當然有些土地的問題那個現在的話我是覺得過去的話不一定有積極的在協助但是其實這個延長的起見最主要是要給他們機會那其實他們既然有心要要讓他走向這個合法化要能夠輔導轉型"},{"start":24735.345,"end":24754.371,"text":"那我就想這些跟過去都有歷史淵源包括都很有特色的這些其實更是發展觀光條例應該發展觀光的精神啊而不是把他們讓他們退場他們有些人在疫情期間當著這個配合政府政策防疫的模範生但是這時候就叫他退學"},{"start":24755.211,"end":24776.925,"text":"然後我覺得說如果今天大家可以讓他們來趕快配合的甚至地方政府甚至包括共產黨政府如何能夠讓他們在土地使用上趕快轉型因為他們也在申請中他們也在努力啊那我在想今天有看到其實很多的包括直銷室的委員國軍運行館他們也要歇業吧這是逼著他們歇業啊"},{"start":24777.805,"end":24802.051,"text":"那我在想現在給他們的期間甚至這些青年服務中心反而是更積極的輔導轉型那這個五年喔其實也是觀光署的成績啊那所以還是希望說能夠把它延長謝謝林國天委員其實特別提醒部長跟署長其實我剛才已經講得很清楚"},{"start":24803.012,"end":24821.164,"text":"那我就很奇怪了這本來就是有歷史上的淹眼那為什麼那個時候你們還讓他們做呢所以這個很多事情是事緩則演這裡面不管多少家裡面的員工他還是有家計啦"},{"start":24822.285,"end":24838.339,"text":"所以你今天如果再給他緩個5年到最後不管是定漏入條款或特別管理辦法這些就沒有這些都沒有這個法令的問題是你們來管理"},{"start":24838.959,"end":24863.319,"text":"你如果是土地的問題那是你家的事啊我落入條款給你的啊我給你五年了啊啊你坐不來不符合我規定那就沒有辦法嘛所以我常講過我剛才也舉例確確實實我舉例像救國團欸在台北市疫情的當中他是扮演是一個防疫的尖兵欸人家全力配合了欸"},{"start":24864.459,"end":24884.733,"text":"有歷史的東西我相信不管是相剋不管是景光山磚等等這類的東西那本來以前都是安全他們哪一個發生事情不要一窮不變拿那些法令來限制他們我認為保證我們說實在你是比較開明的做法啦"},{"start":24888.155,"end":24909.34,"text":"既然立法委員有這種提案更何況三年的疫情對不對三年的疫情那你再給他五年我跟你講他做不到我跟你講你去訂漏路條款沒有人會怪你們沒有人會怪你們那如果你們去訂定辦法去輔導他們這也是一個辦法所以這個有歷史上的錯誤"},{"start":24916.803,"end":24941.388,"text":"對不对 所以我還是建議這個應該是要給這種時間給他們去那個啦好 謝謝林委員我想這樣大家的來龍去脈大部分都知道啦那這個也有一些不同的想法啦那我想這樣的是不是因為雖然這個夜館單位法規的部分是觀光署但是"},{"start":24942.248,"end":24970.505,"text":"涉及到一個單位包括了這個可能警政署的警官會館國防部的國警英雄館甚至教育部的教師會館甚至有勞動部的勞工的育樂中心還有農業部等等的領務局我覺得面向蠻多的我們是不是把這個案子就保留送院會協商好不好大家再給他一點院會嘛大家全宏觀去協商這樣的大家有沒有意見"},{"start":24970.97,"end":24996.662,"text":"主席啊 我不同意啦因為剛才跟公安署講了老半天 那麼死古不化啊有疫情的問題在裡面嘛 你看執政黨委員有那麼激烈嗎 沒有吧是不是我們送宴會啦 我們就先出委員會啦 好不好先出委員會啦 欸 欸 欸表決一下沒事啦表決你有事嗎哪裡6比6"},{"start":25000.819,"end":25019.241,"text":"六比七、七比六啊主席當然要表啊 主席怎麼可以不表主席不聽黨團的嗎好那個 表決啦報告陳委員這樣好不好 表決啦這樣的 大家稍微尊重主席幾秒好不好尊重我幾秒"},{"start":25020.836,"end":25050.248,"text":"那我想其實在70之二條我們有四位委員提的版本除了時限要延長之外還有一些其他的內容還有一些其他的內容那這個整個的部分不是關一個15年因為真的有四個案子那這樣的我們這個部分就交給他們去綜合去考量我們保留送院會學商至少這個案子我們出委員會啦好不好讓他不要卡在這邊已經卡了這麼多年了啦好不好拜託"},{"start":25055.037,"end":25081.983,"text":"不是一樣就出委員會啦不要表啦拜託啦拜託啦那最後一個這樣好不好你送去協商喔又有另一波的問題開始我跟你講你今天把它解決掉啦我知道今天把它解決掉了問題是這邊解決掉到了二讀會還是協商啊協商到時候他們去協商嘛你現在先把它表掉嘛好不好"},{"start":25083.226,"end":25093.238,"text":"好好那既然我們提案的委員有堅持那我們做主席也是就是尊重啦好不好那我們針對於第等一下你要表決因為我剛剛講說因為還有其他的內容"},{"start":25102.865,"end":25121.858,"text":"好來我還是要幫那個旅館業講幾句話因為疫情是大家共同承擔那我們覺得有合理的時間給他們你回去怎麼弄你弄配套啊你再講老半天還是表決啦對不對再講半個鐘頭還是這樣啊"},{"start":25137.398,"end":25144.36,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":25148.359,"end":25164.749,"text":"好 那我們提案委員這個議程的部分我們就針對於陳雪真委員的版本來進行表決那這個版本的內容請大家去大家來參閱一下就是時間延長5年到119年1月21號好不好 那我們來進行表決首先清點人數"},{"start":25178.264,"end":25185.595,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":25193.154,"end":25204.157,"text":"好 我們進行表決贊成陳雪生所提的版本其中內容是這個期限展延到119年1月21號贊成的請舉手好 贊成6票好 反對的委員請舉手"},{"start":25229.994,"end":25247.403,"text":"好,反對委員6票那我們評票齁那這個我是表達同意齁就是贊成這個陳雪生的一個版本好不好那本案按照表決結果通過"},{"start":25248.669,"end":25265.427,"text":"那回來還有一個第二條剛剛那個既然這個通過了齁我們第二條的部分齁就維持現行條文好各位還有沒有其他意見沒有好那我們接續處理好"},{"start":25266.739,"end":25288.629,"text":"協商完成做以下宣告今日協商結論免予宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄交通部建議條文及相關機關所送書面資料列入公報記錄另外針對今天的會議做以下決議討論事項第二案"},{"start":25291.208,"end":25315.535,"text":"審查丸俊擬據審查報告提報院會討論第二、條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字授權主席及議事人員整理第三、院會討論時由本人魯昭偉、明哲補充說明第四、院會討論前"},{"start":25318.581,"end":25334.532,"text":"院會討人權請問各位委員發展公安條例是否要交給黨團協商就直接交給院會就好啦好是不是要交給黨團協商不用"},{"start":25338.72,"end":25350.585,"text":"就不用協商啦﹖直接給院會﹖保留給院會就好啦﹖好﹖阿等我們啦﹖好﹖好﹖好﹖現在休息11月20號星期三上午9點繼續開會謝謝大家"},{"start":25355.657,"end":25381.903,"text":"吳偉 吳偉 吳偉"},{"start":25383.545,"end":25397.599,"text":"三、四、三十、三十不要離開。好,請各位委員回座一下,謝謝。"},{"start":25401.781,"end":25418.011,"text":"因為我們剛剛有還有53條有保留條文那這樣好不好我們院會討論前我們還是請問各位委員我們發展觀光條例是否需要交黨團協商因為保留條文那我們就同意各位同意有繼續協商黨團協商"},{"start":25421.553,"end":25440.605,"text":"有36條因為有保留那還是要協商好那我們就決定還是交由黨團先協商還有沒有其他條文沒討論到的還是保留好沒有好那我們現在就休息11月20號上午9點繼續開會"},{"start":25451.843,"end":25454.745,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":25481.772,"end":25482.856,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"}]}},{"id":"157063","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157063","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87808da38a21784f5e117a57b012903f1cd6dd881769fb5af8af890c8298699f945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:06:35 - 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謝謝林委員的說明"}]}},{"id":"157061","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157061","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87a9532ac51380b456117a57b012903f1cd6dd881769fb5af83ab31a2dbb756f7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:12:41 - 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謝謝主席感謝主席今天安排這個假車牌的相關修法本席在今年9月26號的質詢的時候就建議說假車牌的處罰應該要加重當時也提出道交條例那這個部分在10月25號順利來通過一睹來覆尾那包含說過去的確提到金額3600到10800元其實相對非常非常低所以價格我們第一個罰款要提高把我們版本是6000提高到這個"},{"start":31.645,"end":48.005,"text":"六千元以上、三萬元以下的罰環當然更核心的重點是沒入車輛這個部分我們希望一定要能夠確實來執行什麼樣的人會使用假車牌第一個就如剛剛前面幾位委員所說的可能是因為他車牌被扣住所以他必須上路所以他使用假車牌"},{"start":48.766,"end":67.856,"text":"但是我們去想想這問題我們之所以要扣他車牌就是希望他不要上路結果他買了一個便宜的假車牌讓車輛能夠繼續上路那這個法則本身就是無效的所以為了杜絕這樣子的逃避逃避懲罰的規則的方式我們應該去做核心問題來處理就是來摸入車輛"},{"start":68.576,"end":92.574,"text":"那第二個我想假車牌這幾年下來也嚴重造成警方辦案的困難假車牌我們雖然過去強調說有電子長城很多的犯罪行為無所遁形但是這幾年尤其今年以來我在9月的時候就預想到今年可能會破千件我那時候想的是年底破千件沒想到現在假車牌的查獲數量就已經破千件這表示說假車牌犯案數量已經嚴重的影響治安"},{"start":94.335,"end":113.002,"text":"他不僅僅只是交通道路的問題他還是治安的問題所以在假設牌的問題上面除了罰還之外更重要更重要也希望能夠確實執行的就是來沒入車輛讓這些使用假設牌上路這些民眾他不得再使用那才能夠完全的執行到法律的效果"},{"start":113.402,"end":129.895,"text":"否則的話這些法律形同俱聞就像我們提到了就算你罰款再加再重但是很多6000到3萬以下即便是6000到3萬以下很多的這個犯罪集團他根本不在意這個價格所以最核心的問題我想還是希望能夠確實來執行末路車輛這個罰則以上謝謝好謝謝黃健豪委員"}]}},{"id":"157059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157059","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e8778d449d6816c09b8117a57b012903f1cd6dd881769fb5af870aa9f53cbca5dff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:04:55 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﹗"}]}},{"id":"157064","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157064","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87daff460ea9464dfc117a57b012903f1c9d3bbbff2c0eeca791b1f0c7435980ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"09:15:03 - 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謝謝趙偉那在那個發展觀光條例第72那本期在這裡要特別針對提案說明那在7條之二的話裡面所描述的一些相關單位不管是舊國團、香客大樓或是國軍英雄館或是景光山莊其實過去的話當然有提到說因為疫情的期間啊"},{"start":24.434,"end":38.572,"text":"那那時候在申請合法的過程中他那時候因為爆發行政效率或是諸多的原因那其實有提到可以的話在這個條例的話是希望能夠針對期間去做展員輔導合法那其實過去在這個"},{"start":40.034,"end":57.388,"text":"旅館工會他們所提的這個訴求上其實他們最主要也是希望是在非法民宿或者是日租套房這種的類型他們並不是要針對救國團或是日租套房甚至更正救國團或是香客大樓或是國興英雄館等等的一些旅租業者"},{"start":57.748,"end":84.567,"text":"那其實在如何能夠在交通部或是觀光署或是相關的單位來輔導這些像是救護團的活動中心或者是國區運行館或是教師會館等等當然能夠讓他們能夠合法化政府是應該可以的話是加快輔導的動作或是甚至輔導的一個效果而不是因為這個期間上因為疫情而讓這些全部都關門還全部都面臨倒閉或是甚至全部收起來"},{"start":84.787,"end":106.48,"text":"因為這些過去都有一個歷史的一個因素在那我相信在政府其實中央部門如果要提出這個發展觀光條例在這個期間之內的話我覺得展現有其必要性尤其是在疫情期間相信過去觀光署有許多的討論所以我覺得在今天應該是針對這個問題我相信它的延期還配合疫情"},{"start":106.8,"end":118.966,"text":"二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 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»:"},{"start":1198.626,"end":1199.261,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分："},{"start":1418.695,"end":1419.488,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分。"},{"start":1453.916,"end":1455.094,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分。"},{"start":1723.7,"end":1740.044,"text":"好,我們現在開始開會。請主評報告出席人數。報告全體會。出席委員13人,已足法定人數。我們現在開始開會。進行報告事項,請選組上至會議事錄。立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議事錄,時間113年11月14日星期四,9時至12時15分,地點紅101會議室,出席委員陳廷輝委員等12人,公教委員邱益穎、張家俊。"},{"start":1752.847,"end":1778.378,"text":"列席委員、賴事保委員等23人。列席人員經濟部常次臨緊張。國發會副主委彭麗珮、各支保護委員會籌備處主任、理事、德技各單位相關人員、農業部、環境部、內政部、法務部、司法院、國家通訊傳播委員會、速發部、衛福部、交通部、財政部、勞動部、護衛會、園民會、主計處、總處等各單位代表列席。主席李昭吉委員歷於臨。"},{"start":1779.398,"end":1794.333,"text":"報告事項先讀上次會議事錄決定確定報告事項討論事項一審查本院委員陳玉珍等17人已據《再生能源發展條例》第7條、第9條及第11條條文修正草案案。討論事項何便詢問委員陳玉珍與其"},{"start":1795.794,"end":1810.345,"text":"徐宇貞及徐巧熙說明提案要旨經濟部長次聯緊張國發會副主委彭毅配及各支保護委員會籌備處主任李仕德報告後委員陳天飛等15人提出質詢經由各支保護委員會籌備處理主任經濟部聯長次國發會彭副主委"},{"start":1814.308,"end":1834.284,"text":"衛福部郭專委、陸委會梁副主委、交通部盧代理副司長、財政部副署長、環境部梁副組長、紀鄉二人及喜達副登記發言委員．在場者外其餘軍委員．發言完畢。詢答結束委員．齊侃、邱益穎、謝一鳳、麥玉珍、林代化及張家俊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。"},{"start":1835.204,"end":1851.03,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本會。二、委員徐巧熙等人擬拒《再生農業發展條例》第3條條文修正草案案。三、本庸臺灣民眾黨黨團擬拒《再生農業發展條例》第3條及第13條條文修正草案案。四、臺灣民眾黨團擬拒《再生農業發展條例》第19條之一及第21條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1858.152,"end":1885.754,"text":"五、本院委員王宏偉等人已據《財政聯盟發展條例》第3條條文修正草案案決議尋答結束令定期繼續審查。二、審查一、本院委員王美惠等人已據《個人資料保護法》部分條文修正草案案。二、委員賴世保等人已據《個人資料保護法》第47條、第48條及第49條條文修正草案案。三、委員邱志偉等人已據《個人資料保護法》第21條、第29條及第32條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1886.494,"end":1908.214,"text":"四、委員賴瑞榮等人擬拒個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案案。五、本院台民民眾黨人擬拒個人資料保護法第47條、48條、49條條文修正草案案。六、本院委員黃潔等人擬拒個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案案。七、委員徐宇貞等人擬拒個人資料保護法第6條條文修正草案案。決議行答結束令定期繼續審查。"},{"start":1909.955,"end":1925.361,"text":"三、審查一、本院委員陳亭碑的人擬拒離島建設條例第十條之一條件修正草案案。二、委員鄭天才的人擬拒離島建設條例第十三條條件修正草案案。三、委員陳玉珍的人擬拒離島建設條例申訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二。"},{"start":1926.181,"end":1943.092,"text":"條文草案案．委員陳玉珍等人以據旅島建設條例徵令第18條之一條文草案案．委員賴瑞榮等人以據旅島建設條例第二條第15條之一條文修正草案案．委員陳瑩等人以據旅島建設條例第13條條文修正草案案．決議詢答結束令定期繼續審查。 散會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1948.988,"end":1978.333,"text":"好,呃,有關議事錄部分,現在沒有,在場沒有委員。議事錄我們暫不處理。現在繼續進行討論事項,請一併宣讀。一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於農業部及所屬單位預算部分。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管．非營業部分．農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金。今日詢答,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1982.827,"end":1988.481,"text":"好,現在請農業部請陳俊基部長我們一併報告。"},{"start":1999.456,"end":2025.648,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位行政、大家早。那今天奉邀到大院經濟委員會報告114年度的有關於公預算跟非營利的基金的預算及相關的一個收支的一個情形。那首先還是感謝各位委員長期對於農業相關發展的一個支持。那以下針對報告用簡報的方式跟各位來做說明。"},{"start":2026.533,"end":2048.328,"text":"那整個報告大概分為三個部分請參考那整個農業部的114年施政基本上還是架構在國家希望工程裡面非常重要去有幾個重點第一個就是完善農民的一個福利體系然後也推動農業的轉型升級確保糧食安全此外"},{"start":2048.908,"end":2073.769,"text":"我們也會針對整個農業的生態環境的永續致力於相關的一個農村再生的一個實踐。那整個這個國家希望工程裡面大概我們透過之前所跟各位說明的透過智慧、韌性、永續、安心的四個政策的手段來達到穩定的農業生產、永續的農業生態跟幸福的農村生活。"},{"start":2074.449,"end":2089.626,"text":"那這三個面向裡面不僅是除了農民福利跟農事效率的提升以外那我們也會全面推動相關的農業對雷氏的一個給付那針對友善永續環境的部分"},{"start":2089.906,"end":2090.426,"text":"發言委員：發言委員"},{"start":2118.596,"end":2118.876,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":2148.3,"end":2165.08,"text":"最嚴別來看的時候那最主要是比去年還少了大概4.78億那這個簡列的部分最主要是農田水利人和建設基金出資的結一款腳庫的部分那3.57億那這個等一下會說明以及全國農業金庫現金鼓勵1.15億"},{"start":2168.984,"end":2180.568,"text":"在稅出的部分整個農業部門的公務預算編列了1692.54億那其中一法律義務支出的部分大概佔了48%大概是818.98億公共建設佔了16%是263.07億那一般性的支出560億"},{"start":2194.4,"end":2222.034,"text":"最重要的是科技研究發展去支撐農業整個發展的部分大概佔了百分之三大概49.97億那如果說我們跟去年的預算數相比的話整個農業部的114年供預算的支出比113年預算數增加了83.24億那其中增加的部分包括一般性的支出還有公共建設以及科技發展的支出那以下就這些部分分別說明"},{"start":2222.794,"end":2229.897,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分："},{"start":2249.385,"end":2264.618,"text":"與相關的農損基金分別是29.56億跟18.34億那另外我們也增列了遠洋大型委員調的一個收購的一個計畫大概10.37億這些經費就是最主要是增加的部分"},{"start":2265.459,"end":2293.577,"text":"那依法律義務支出的部分,占了818.98億那檢列的部分最主要是針對因為113年度我們增列了112年度那時候調整了月頭保金所增加的費用那這筆費用是單年度的在113年度編列但是114年度就不用編列就回歸到正常所以檢列了21.16億那增列的部分"},{"start":2294.137,"end":2308.669,"text":"最主要是正列的撥補農業天然災害救助基金。這個基金也會說明從過往的27億增加到39億多。另外還有正列的漁業用油補貼以及農民健康保險的虧損部分。"},{"start":2311.28,"end":2328.767,"text":"所以整個依法律義務支出的部分大概我們從這個表來看的話農農福利今天大概編列了448億那相關的農民參加農民健康保險的補助費用大概27.78億那農民參加全民健康保險的一個保險費的補助是161.75億這是比較大項的部分請各位參考"},{"start":2334.189,"end":2340.112,"text":"公共建設支出公共建設支出公共建設支出公共建設支出公共建設支出公共建設支出公共建設支出公共建設支出公共建設支出"},{"start":2355.479,"end":2369.714,"text":"農田水利的部分也增加了11.89億那還有相關的森林永續經營及產業振興的部分增加了10.42億那這個三個大計畫的支持還有正業的農地重劃的9.29億那這幾個計畫其實凸顯了我們明年度會更積極的去推動相關的"},{"start":2379.263,"end":2407.289,"text":"從治山防洪的部分從農水流的部分我們會加強我們的農業的一個基礎建設那在檢列的部分包括了26.14億是前任漁港前任漁港的那個期程已經到了所以去年有編26.14億今年因為期程已經結束了所以就不用再編這個部分是檢列的部分還有相關的冷驗的計畫也到去年到今年到期那我們明年度開始會"},{"start":2408.029,"end":2408.189,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":2419.541,"end":2427.223,"text":"計劃主要的計劃包括生理容區經營的產業增進計劃41.86億那整體的資產防護計劃是45.79億那相關的蟲化區緊急農路設施的改善17.69億等那相關的還有漁業容區經營的基礎建設我們也比去年度增加的2.08億達到15.04億那有關冷鏈的部分"},{"start":2444.087,"end":2444.227,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":2463.137,"end":2481.991,"text":"那科技發展的部分114年度預算達到49.97億比去年度45.83億增加了4.14億那這樣的一個經費的增加也顯示農業部門未來針對科技發展去支持產業的決心是不會變的而且我們也透過相關的計畫原體像"},{"start":2484.052,"end":2499.638,"text":"國科委爭取相關經費,主要經費在爭業氣候變遷及近年台放相關科技研發。整個科技研發相關列表部分請各位參考。"},{"start":2500.953,"end":2520.212,"text":"那第二個部分除了公寓預算以後農業部主管的還有農業特別收入基金的預算編列那整個114年的基金的預算基金來源是464.45億那基金的用途是611.62億分別比去年度的預算案都有增加"},{"start":2521.173,"end":2527.639,"text":"相關的114年基金來源464.45億,主要是供戶撥補,大概372億左右。基金的用途611.62億,比去年還多56.36億。主要包括有關於農業經營的發展,還有增進農民所得福利等相關的計畫。相關的計畫等一下會做一個說明。"},{"start":2544.955,"end":2567.97,"text":"整個農業特別收入基金大概分為6個部分。第一個部分是農業發展基金。第二個部分是農損基金。第三是農村再生基金。接下來是林務發展及造林基金、天然災害救助基金及漁業發展基金的部分。整個業務的收入相關的請大家參考。"},{"start":2569.349,"end":2578.194,"text":"從農發基金來看的時候農發基金我們114年度編列了200基金來源是237.31億基金的用途是229.53億比去年度的預算案213.20億增加到16.33億所增加的部分最主要是增列了良正的業務12.36億等包括"},{"start":2594.324,"end":2621.303,"text":"我們現在目前預計要推的一級二轉三加三的一個政策8.4億左右那基金的用途裡面相關的農業幾個主要比較大型的包括農政的業務153.78億那利息貸款差額補貼的部分30億左右那穩定肥料的部分大概有15億那相關的農業保險也有11億那農民子女就學基金有8.25億及產業調節5.6億左右"},{"start":2624.825,"end":2633.929,"text":"第二個部分是農產品受淨喉損害基金。這個基金裡面整個基金的用途大概編列了169.14億,比去年度的150億增加了18.64億。整個169.14億主要是辦理對地綠色幾戶的118億。"},{"start":2644.833,"end":2664.558,"text":"還有整個產業面的一個調整的部分大概有50億左右也包括了養豬產業韌性高值化的一個計劃優化跟養牛產業、酪農養牛產業的計劃也在這裡做一個編列那整個基金用途較上年度增加了18.64億那最主要是增加了綠色"},{"start":2666.667,"end":2666.947,"text":"議員提供的資料"},{"start":2686.803,"end":2712.105,"text":"五十六點二七億主要是辦理農村再生的規劃相關的人力的培育那另外農村發展建設的部分有一百一十三點八二億那在基金用途比去年增加最主要是增加了兩個部分一個部分就是整個農村的人才培育就是去吸引再更多的年輕人進到整個農村的一個系統那另外也增列了農村的再生的建設跟發展的部分"},{"start":2713.616,"end":2738.234,"text":"有關於零物結天然及漁業發展基金的部分比較重要的是零物跟漁業發展基金大致變動不大最主要是農業天然災害救助基金編列了39.61億在這邊我特別跟各位說明就是天然災害救助基金往年大概編列27到28億由於近年來像今年已經連續有4個颱風"},{"start":2740.075,"end":2762.99,"text":"相關天然災害造成農產損失,特別在農業發展基金的部分,我們也編列了比較高的基金來應付未來環境面前所面臨的農民災害損失。整個農業作業基金的部分,整個基金的部分,最主要大概整個業務的收入跟"},{"start":2764.087,"end":2764.487,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":2785.642,"end":2801.355,"text":"農業作業基金裡面大概有三個基金,一個是種苗改良繁殖作業基金,一個是序程改良作業基金,一個是農業科技園區的作業基金。種苗改良基金最主要是配合政策的種子的生產及推廣。"},{"start":2803.197,"end":2811.084,"text":"續展基金最主要是針對續型改良繁殖的推廣的部分。農科基金最主要是針對農業科技園區裡面的園區的開發擴充改良及相關的徵購跟管理的一個事項。"},{"start":2818.715,"end":2843.87,"text":"農田水利基金的部分,整個農田水利基金業務總收入是108.3億,主要是政府的補助及水利設備使用費的一個收入。114年度的總收入128.66億,主要是用人還有相關的設置維護跟折舊的費用。那預估我們114年底基金的淨值能可以維持到4144.75億。"},{"start":2847.836,"end":2854.78,"text":"農田水利基金分為母基金及17個分基金,合計收入108.3億元,支出128.66億元,年底淨值4144.75億元。各基金的收入及支出情形請參閱。"},{"start":2872.523,"end":2882.409,"text":"有關於農民退休基金的預算編列的部分那整個總支出的部分是2,255.5萬那比113年度的159.6萬增加了95.9萬那相關的整個的255.5萬最主要是投資業務的一個成本那我們預估110年底基金的淨值可以達到288.36億元"},{"start":2903.066,"end":2913.914,"text":"那接下來跟各位報告有關於113年度的一個預算的一個執行情形那整個稅入113年的預算稅入的情形是22.53億那稅數是1609.3億那累計分配的執行包括累計的執行數目前稅數的部分已達到90.29%那我想我們會針對"},{"start":2929.085,"end":2929.225,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":2949.761,"end":2975.054,"text":"五百五十五點二六億,它的執行率是九十四點一七億那農業作業基金總額業務支出的部分它的執行率達到九十三點一七那農田水利事業作業基金的部分它達到了執行率達到十月底達到了八十二點二八億那同樣的我們針對相關的這些執行率的部分也會在剩下的兩個月的部分我想我們會檢視每一個"},{"start":2977.897,"end":2982.39,"text":"計劃的相關的經費的資金力去盡量達到我們的政策要求。"},{"start":2983.906,"end":3007.058,"text":"最後我想跟各位委員報告我們農業部將持續精進各項的農業政策作為然後同時以多元的輔導來協助產業的升級跟提升我們產業的競爭力逐步落實整個政策所揭示的自衛鏈性永續安心的一個農業來推動農業持續的不斷的向前進步那也再次感謝所有的委員長期以來對我們農業的一個關心與關注"},{"start":3010.98,"end":3036.557,"text":"與支持以及不遺餘力照顧農民的部分那敬請各位委員能夠持續給農業部相關的指教期待我們一起努力讓我們農業永續發展達到明天會更好謝謝好部長先回座明天一定會更好在場委員已足三人請問各位同仁上次會議輸入有錯誤"},{"start":3038.973,"end":3056.14,"text":"沒有錯,我們就確定上市一次錄。那進行詢答之前,我很快的介紹今天農業部列起的我們施署處的相關同仁。很快的,不用站起來。農業部陳濟俊部長、綜合規劃師蔡巧蓮市長、資源永續利用師莊老達市長、"},{"start":3060.922,"end":3068.808,"text":"農民輔導師陳俊延師長、修復師李一千師長、動保師江文泉師長、農業科技師李鴻熙師長、國際術師蕭東瓊師長、資訊師郭坤峰師長、秘書處蘇孟蘭處長、法治處吳芙蓉處長、人事處林建章處長、政運處江北鸞處長、會計處蘇文樹處長、統計處王淑娟處長、農家屬的部分是姚士元署長、"},{"start":3091.241,"end":3114.586,"text":"一、由王振芳代理署長、動質與防疫檢驗署、邱垂章署長、林業及資源保育署、林華慶署長、農村發展及水土保護署、李正陽署長、農田水利署、蔡昇甫署長、農業金融署、李聰勇署長、農業與科技園區管理中心、謝聖興主任、林業實驗署、"},{"start":3116.537,"end":3141.162,"text":"市長出國有公務請假由蔡正榮副署長代理、營業實驗所鄭麗燕學所長、實驗所張景怡所長、實驗所黃正芳所長、生物研究所鄧明中所長、農業藥物實驗所徐次鴻所長、生物多元性研究所楊家棟所長以及桃園苗栗台中台南高雄花蓮台棟。"},{"start":3142.282,"end":3162.488,"text":"茶飲料、總糧、繁殖廠、各廠的廠長、面政部及勞動部、行政院、主計總署的代表。現在我們要進行詢答。委員之前,主席願意做幾點宣告。每位委員發言時間本會員6分鐘,必要時得延長。"},{"start":3165.186,"end":3190.698,"text":"兩分鐘非本會委員四分鐘上午十點截止發言登記也是為了讓會議能夠順利進行以及每位委員發言時間的公平性以及不影響下位委員發言的權益在我們每位委員諮詢時間結束之後本席會立即請諮詢委員停止諮詢請各位委員能夠充分配合感謝好第一位委員諮詢請林大華委員"},{"start":3195.394,"end":3217.699,"text":"請回部陳部長部長您的結語說我們本部持續精進各項的農業政策作為以多元輔導協助產業升級提升競爭力落實智慧韌性智慧韌性"},{"start":3218.999,"end":3219.039,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":3236.766,"end":3256.135,"text":"議員："},{"start":3256.756,"end":3272.129,"text":"農業部開始就要智慧管理有啦你們現在有做啦在成吉仲時代有做了一個所謂的平台他要離智慧化的管理還差得遠啊那本席也一直倡議你如何解決菜土菜金你所有的產銷的資訊能夠從部分"},{"start":3275.051,"end":3275.211,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":3298.775,"end":3298.915,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":3318.931,"end":3341.087,"text":"所有的各部會喔部會只有農業部沒有做兩件事情第一個我們的智慧AI的導入智慧化基金這個是一個概念我如果在算力的導入當中去提升我們的生產的良率去提升我們的品質第二個節能減碳就在做這兩件事情而已農業部有做嗎"},{"start":3341.727,"end":3351.31,"text":"沒有。所以呢你導致你的這個12月到2月高利貸好現在止爆了那像今年3到5月香蕉過剩然後整年度的雞蛋生產過剩那只要颱風香菜我們動輒美金就六七百塊那你一定會說這個是颱風啊"},{"start":3363.374,"end":3363.454,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":3380.785,"end":3407.551,"text":"溫室的種植啊好那現在包括斑斑有石斑這是為了因應什麼難道你們真的有這個前瞻性嗎是因為中國禁止進口我們的石斑有斑斑有鮮奶難道是因為你們要真的要這個要保護我們國內的弱農嗎是因為我們面對的紐西蘭的這個免關稅鮮奶免關稅到現在還是永久乳在替代啊"},{"start":3408.231,"end":3428.288,"text":"好那現在最好笑的是你們現在說不勉強不勉強各個學校去做你要不要班班有先來因為你的弱農的本身的量體不夠啊你也必須用替代的那個永久農來啊所以這在在在的從講到我們農業政策是缺乏產業戰略規劃產業的戰略規劃"},{"start":3431.511,"end":3431.571,"text":"非營業部分："},{"start":3442.887,"end":3466.601,"text":"只有全部的部會就只有農業部最弱五。好,我們來看走過口蹄疫之後的疫情管制。今年口蹄疫去年我們拔針一定要一年。好,那現在我們有市場嘛。那本席認為如果真的養豬業要有真的國家對在國際市場上能夠再現風華AI基因定序的基因農業兩件事情喔。"},{"start":3468.402,"end":3489.191,"text":"AI是來基因定序是一件事情我用AI來匹配基因定序又是一個技術這應該導入我的養豬業好我們來看左邊美國丹麥英國美國的美投豬的養殖過程我講的是豬本身產生我如何降低他百分之他美國能夠降低這頭豬在養殖過程當中的7.7的碳排"},{"start":3493.433,"end":3498.997,"text":"丹麥它的生米頭豬的生產效益增加30%減碳26%英國是米頭豬的增加35%的遺傳增進率減碳10%他們還設定喔本身養豬喔不是講養豬的環境喔這等一下我後面會講養豬本身他2050年英國說他們要減碳80%"},{"start":3517.95,"end":3522.154,"text":"好這當中的技術在哪裡他為什麼能夠增加豬的生產效益為什麼他能夠豬本身生產的減碳他做到了飼料換肉率的提高他做到的實性考的品種的挑選他做到的體型加的種源的篩選"},{"start":3538.667,"end":3539.068,"text":"非營業部分：發言委員："},{"start":3559.511,"end":3577.818,"text":"那當然他的這個他的長肉就會快所以本席認為今天我們的養豬隊養豬國家隊如果真的要立足台灣放眼全球再次的拓展國際市場全基因體的AI育種整個之全部的基因定序"},{"start":3578.823,"end":3579.043,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":3597.288,"end":3607.676,"text":"這是多麼美好的一件事情但是他是民間自主來做臺灣特色農業的榮耀找回美味的種源歐滌、歐滌肉是臺灣味是臺灣因此的一個印象但是"},{"start":3612.68,"end":3640.032,"text":"基因不存實的臺灣市場上的黑豬存在三個問題第一個外表性狀差異大第二個生產效率不一第三品質規格不易控管所以我們當然很難走向高品質的國際市場這個這家民間公司透過了基因定序的技術找回了臺灣原生種的黑豬的DNA總源成為我們初始的目標平埔黑豬"},{"start":3641.834,"end":3649.776,"text":"民民貧苦黑豬由村發成畜牧場與臺大動科系畜產試驗所平科大等多個教育政府單位的合作經過15年成功選育出的品種這是臺灣首個民間自行育種"},{"start":3663.999,"end":3664.099,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":3684.929,"end":3710.185,"text":"當然有,我們民間做出來了。好,這樣的豬種有什麼好處?它能夠適應台灣亞熱帶且這個肉質以伊比利豬不相三下世界最好的豬伊比利豬算數一數二嫩度甜度優於市售的白豬這個都含進口豬好,我們看國產豬的過去跟現在好,過去我們在1997年口蹄爆發之前我國的豬口日本是20萬以上的豬肉"},{"start":3712.586,"end":3713.667,"text":"農業部過去的養豬效益,在1996年我們的豬價每公斤58元,出口當時每公斤是豬肉152元。"},{"start":3732.108,"end":3752.987,"text":"二〇二一年我們不能出口但是我們每公斤價格提升了七十六點七就在這時候我看日本各國輸入日本的這個價格是不高於每公斤一百五十塊的所以你這樣台灣在今年七月一號這個解除台灣口蹄疫的疫區限制台灣的"},{"start":3754.068,"end":3754.268,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":3771.852,"end":3779.596,"text":"好,走過狗敵意之後我們如何強化養豬的產業競爭力提升我國豬隻跟豬隻產品競爭力開啟國際市場的新契機為當務之急本席要講的是在今天講到國際合作如果我們台灣的種族只要導入AI而且用AI來做基因定序來存化品種它一定有一個特色耐思耐樂"},{"start":3797.225,"end":3797.245,"text":"發言員："},{"start":3816.571,"end":3822.412,"text":"主席不好意思再給我一分鐘了那我就再批評一下農業部好了請你們看PIG333全世界的這個這個國際豬連國外都把我們的豬分析出來我們豬為什麼貴我們的飼料成本貴所以我們美國你看這是全世界成本每公斤豬肉成本生產最高的是台灣去看看這個期刊"},{"start":3844.457,"end":3855.184,"text":"好那產業政策沒有就算了本席主張由國營事業台堂開始展開我國的豬隻經營地序藉由國營事業的競爭力提升刺激整體豬隻的續產第二個比照台堂東海峰東海峰你們只做什麼你們做人員政策不是做產業政策你們用了這個早期他的豬的"},{"start":3867.972,"end":3877.723,"text":"排泄物來做早期發電這叫做能源政策不是農業政策所以呢部長您這個可不可以針對本席的建議一個月內提供給本席"},{"start":3878.823,"end":3889.887,"text":"我想有關於數位預總的部分我們會在一個月提供但是國營事業台當是經濟部所屬不是農業部所管我們會跟他我們一起來協助他們的不連花了6個多億哪一個農業民間可以花了6個多億來處理那個水聯的問題所以部長太落伍了請你支持我們的卓院長的AI內閣好謝謝"},{"start":3909.092,"end":3934.131,"text":"來,官員請回座。下一行,邱毅英委員之選。"},{"start":3943.908,"end":3944.129,"text":"農業部陳部長"},{"start":3954.164,"end":3982.126,"text":"委員長部長早部長我今天有三個問題要請教第一個我想讓您回答一下這個國民黨的委員說你們這個宣傳的預算經費農業部是排名在前三名那這個是不是又要來搞大內宣可是我認真看了一下農業部的預算編列其實跟去年是一樣的都是1.4億也沒有特別增加那內政部大概是增加比較多所以"},{"start":3983.048,"end":3989.645,"text":"部長我還是讓您簡單說明一下你們這個預算今年的這個行銷預算準備拿來做什麼?"},{"start":3991.046,"end":4011.7,"text":"謝謝委員那我想我們的相關的媒宣的部分我們有幾個重點第一個重點就是說其實我們農業部門從山上的這些森林的防火的部分是需要不斷的去宣導以外那相關的這些病蟲害的防檢疫特別是疫病的部分從邊境從機場就像你們在宣導台灣的這個"},{"start":4013.422,"end":4034.162,"text":"防疫非洲豬瘟禁止大家帶豬肉這些在機場的宣導等等這些都是在你們的所有的宣傳經費裡頭嗎那有沒有包含這個我們的農產品的行銷跟市場開拓的這些宣傳特別是我們現在在國外的時候我們希望說透過通路的一個確認在國外的行銷我們會更加大力道去處理"},{"start":4035.043,"end":4051.501,"text":"部長其實我覺得就是說如果單就預算數字上看起來其實你們跟去年是差不多但我覺得幾個重要的大象我認為農業部可能還要再說明不要讓人家說你們這是拿來做大內宣拿來買網軍其實農業部也不需要去買網軍"},{"start":4056.567,"end":4082.678,"text":"我們台灣的農產要外銷台灣的農產要開拓市場台灣的農產要宣傳甚至很多防疫的觀念要宣傳其實都是需要靠這個經費的我覺得這個部分農業部應該是可以去好好的去做一些宣傳就像我上次跟您提到台灣的優質米現在台灣的優質米已經賣到日本去了在日本的超市是可以買得到而且價格是比日本產的米是便宜兩成"},{"start":4083.558,"end":4083.898,"text":"部長您同意我的看法嗎?"},{"start":4098.712,"end":4120.328,"text":"我非常同意,特別是在國際行銷的部分,包括我們的U字的米的部分,上次也說過了明年度一月份日本會組團來針對米還有其他的農產品會做一個有契約性的採購,那我們希望透過這個能夠讓我們的國產的農產品銷到國外去。當然不只米,比如說像台灣的荔枝,"},{"start":4121.209,"end":4121.669,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":4149.13,"end":4149.53,"text":"我非常謝謝委員對這個議題的關心"},{"start":4171.42,"end":4193.31,"text":"因為這個三層本身我覺得第一個部分就是我們會精準的行銷特別是退休儲金的部分你越早去投保的時候你後續的時候退休也要領得越多可是部長很多年輕人第一個他不知道他能夠從農多久第二個他如果沒有收入他就沒有錢"},{"start":4195.032,"end":4216.49,"text":"有誘因去想要加入退休儲金制度所以你在這個誘因的部分有沒有可能再增加一些比如說從農的他已經在農會有這個農保資格的我們確認他從農的我們事先提撥一筆基金或者是提撥一筆預算在他的儲金帳戶裡頭然後也告訴他這個農退儲金其實"},{"start":4220.894,"end":4238.7,"text":"不用擔心未來可能會像勞保會破產等等或者是說把它列為其他的社會福利保險制度預算有沒有可能用多管齊下的方式去把一個這麼好的農退儲金制度讓他做一個加保的比例提升"},{"start":4239.6,"end":4259.24,"text":"有沒有考慮過其他的方式去提到?那個委員所提到這個部分我們也曾經在多內部討論那先到一些規定的部分就是說我預播一些能夠讓他覺得說他的一個帳戶裡面但是不是他可以用的這個部分我們都在規劃那另外我們現在鎖定的對象是有一些已經從"},{"start":4260.401,"end":4260.461,"text":"對,我想..."},{"start":4287.725,"end":4313.527,"text":"就算一個好的政策沒有人來參與沒有人來投入其實這個好的政策也都是枉然農退出金制度我們推了這麼久好不容易修法通過好不容易上路了那我覺得這個制度尤其是對於親農他們其實幫助是最大的未來到他年老退休的時候他其實就是有一筆固定的金額我覺得這個部分可能要請農業部再多加強一點力道"},{"start":4314.147,"end":4314.307,"text":"第三個問題"},{"start":4335.122,"end":4353.369,"text":"這個部長您大概知道你們的這個免登資材跟生物農藥的預算其實每一年都編的很少112年編了7000多萬到最後的總執行大概是10796萬那高雄市呢我高雄市大概只有分到837萬去113年呢"},{"start":4358.308,"end":4358.428,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":4378.936,"end":4379.056,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":4402.855,"end":4403.056,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":4432.695,"end":4436.598,"text":"我認為如果114年的預算你只這樣編的話我希望115年的預算能夠大幅的增加好不好謝謝"},{"start":4465.54,"end":4485.051,"text":"非常有優秀傑出。謝謝邱委員。部長回座。下一位質詢請鄭正前委員。謝謝主席。我想請一下陳部長。請農業部陳部長。"},{"start":4494.557,"end":4517.664,"text":"部長好因為114年中央政府的媒體預算宣傳費高達25.88億元那其實就是比上一個年度增加65%其實漲幅非常的多可是我看到農業部其實是持平農業部的那個媒體預算是持平可是呢在各部會當中還是排名前五大將近有1.9億1.9億多1億9千多萬元"},{"start":4523.446,"end":4530.132,"text":"其中包括農業特別基金的收入4799萬多元。為甚麼大家會拿放大鏡來檢視中央政府的宣傳預算?是因為1450之前發生的"},{"start":4540.53,"end":4540.751,"text":"發言委員：發言委員"},{"start":4567.787,"end":4567.947,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":4594.451,"end":4614.731,"text":"第一個部分有關於科技的一個研發成果的發表那那個是非常重要因為我們農業部門大概有16個實驗單位這些成果我們會定期的對外的宣導讓農民瞭解OK部長我理解其實這跟我想像你會回答的方式是一樣的可是我想說就是"},{"start":4615.572,"end":4643.502,"text":"立法院預算中心也特別指出農業部的媒體宣傳費用高度集中而且多採限制性招標在110年到112年的媒宣費用裡面的時候前十大廠商有六家年年重複在各部會裡面是最嚴重的一個情況部長我想請問你你知道這六家年年重複的媒體是哪六家嗎我跟委員報告齁據我手邊的資料我們"},{"start":4644.864,"end":4671.626,"text":"今年度本身的有關於媒體宣傳總共有8家那這個8家包括了那個臺市、華市、年代、山地、東森、民視、中廣跟凱洛。那總共有8家。 所以8家年年重複。沒有。我說以今年度來講我並沒有去比對上一年度的齁。那相對的就是說以我們的媒體的預算裡面有8家我覺得它並不是集中在一家或兩家的部分。"},{"start":4672.166,"end":4693.521,"text":"重點還是用限制性招標年年重複而且整個院中心這邊就直接算出來就是年年重複的這6家廠商他只講6家你現在講8家那可能是有2家他沒有年年重複只有2家沒有年年重複有6家是年年重複那他們幾乎佔了整個農業部沒宣費用的4成以上"},{"start":4694.315,"end":4705.06,"text":"我跟委員報告我們還是根據政務採括我想要跟委員解釋那個所謂的限制性招標不是就是一家理解"},{"start":4707.193,"end":4729.709,"text":"市長這部分我們都理解我只是覺得說因為如果說我們預算中間會特別提到一個狀態有這樣的現象所以我們希望能夠避免接下來我們還是不斷用限制性招標然後能夠去讓特定的幾家媒體不斷的去宣傳媒體的宣傳應該要廣嘛對不對你一定也同意媒體宣傳要廣"},{"start":4730.93,"end":4751.715,"text":"議員﹗"},{"start":4751.855,"end":4751.915,"text":"會,我們會來改善。"},{"start":4780.575,"end":4803.322,"text":"好 那這部分的時候我想說我就繼續的追蹤因為1450就從農業部這邊起來讓農業部不斷的背負起了一個養小編然後去養網軍的一個包袱我就當時不是你當部長所以我也希望這事情農業部能夠慢慢把它洗刷掉不要現在人家講到網軍就講到14501450就講到農業部我覺得這是不對的好不好我們會來檢討"},{"start":4807.483,"end":4812.667,"text":"紅火椅的部分就是它的南線我們當時紅火椅防治的中心它的一個地域在什麼地方在苗栗頭前系那邊 對"},{"start":4832.401,"end":4852.845,"text":"部長,拖欠息在新竹,不是苗栗嗎?我們的最南界市在苗栗,然後我們的防禦線是在投鹽溪。那這個部分,因為整個新竹市,三個區域全部都在紅火以的一個肆虐的範圍當中。那我們希望這部分,我們後續怎麼做?給本席一個詳細的說明。我們簡單的講,我們會針對比較"},{"start":4856.546,"end":4859.969,"text":"新竹市的市區也有很多紅火已肆虐的區域,在市區都已經非常的普遍。"},{"start":4877.321,"end":4878.722,"text":"農業金庫的現行的獨立董事他是怎麼提名?"},{"start":4896.372,"end":4915.798,"text":"現行的獨立董事是由農業部推薦然後由農業金庫那邊經過董事會去討論股東會去討論那我在想說因為目前整個農業金庫的獨立董事基本上就等於是農業部直接推薦可是我們整個販官股的部分在整個農業金庫當中只佔了41.6%位的股權"},{"start":4919.699,"end":4925.462,"text":"包括農業部37.59%、農業信保基金的4.03%其他的部分其實是販農漁會的體系占了58.33%剛達將近六成的一個農漁會體系將近六成的股份可是他們沒有辦法去推薦讀懂"},{"start":4941.832,"end":4962.508,"text":"部長你覺得這樣合理嗎?不過我想要跟委員報告就是農業金庫它不是一般公開發行的公司它本身是農會的上級的一個單位同樣是督導所以我們更重要的是它負責整個農業的金融體系包括我們的所謂農民貸款的支撐是部長我在想說因為這個部分"},{"start":4963.869,"end":4992.085,"text":"只要是公司的體系他其實基本上就按照公司法去做就不會有問題我們按照公司法去做就不會有問題所以本席希望就是農業金庫獨董的部分也能夠比照公司法去改採候選人的提名制度只要有1%以上的股份他們就有權利去提名、去推薦那至於說董事會到最後怎麼決定那是另外一回事可是至少不要剝奪這些股東他們的一個提名權"},{"start":4994.006,"end":5008.753,"text":"公司法來去做農業金庫的一個管理我還是跟委員報告因為農業金庫跟一般的公司不一樣他他肩負了很多農業的金融的政策如果純粹讓股東去提名的時候那會"},{"start":5009.693,"end":5009.953,"text":"主席"},{"start":5031.448,"end":5052.095,"text":"好,謝謝知名經濟委員。那個部長這個部分是要跟這個政委委員喔,詳細說明一下。好,部長請回座。好。好,下位質詢請陳庭菲委員。謝謝主席,請部長。請陳部長。"},{"start":5062.599,"end":5084.638,"text":"委員長,我每次在質詢當中都跟您在討論一個叫制度的問題。基本上我相信從過去到現在,我們不論是農業的摘損、漁業的摘損或畜牧的摘損,我們其實在每一次有颱風過,尤其今年又特別。"},{"start":5086.099,"end":5086.239,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":5113.835,"end":5139.978,"text":"事必他一定會對我們台灣不論有沒有直撲畢竟他還會有一些氣流的影響所以基本上從康瑞一直到現在你知道我們是持續摘損持續摘損不是延遲性是持續性摘損這是很恐怖你看從康瑞"},{"start":5141.623,"end":5143.064,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":5169.918,"end":5170.118,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":5193.163,"end":5193.523,"text":"這是第一關嗎?"},{"start":5193.523,"end":5193.543,"text":"是。"},{"start":5212.318,"end":5212.478,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":5232.122,"end":5260.428,"text":"是因為當時候那個是全面性的自災所以有辦法第一時間全面性公告可是在各地方像在台南第一時間11月1號部長你還可以看你的LINE你第一通你一大早還沒開會之前就接到我的電話我跟你講科朋的問題我跟你講我們這些各品項"},{"start":5262.008,"end":5263.008,"text":"但是部長你看喔"},{"start":5288.564,"end":5288.604,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":5320.043,"end":5340.569,"text":"我不知道是誰發生問題啦是政府發生問題還是農業部不積極我要跟委員說明一下也順便讓所有的我想包括我們的媒體朋友知道其實天然災害救助的標準他是由地方公所這邊去訴報訴報了以後"},{"start":5343.21,"end":5371.442,"text":"確定了它的自災程度然後由公所確認以後提報到縣府縣府提報到農業部農業部再公告這是標準的流程但是因為大面積的自災農業部在第一時間我們就啟動了我們的分署跟改良場所跟漁業署的部分去看我們就採用主動公告可是主動公告的過程我們也發現了包括部分的縣市包括台南還有其他縣市公所就變成"},{"start":5372.142,"end":5390.148,"text":"不怎麼想要去看這個我們都清楚所以我為什麼一直請你就把事情SOP講清楚這個SOP已經就在那邊了我們也要求就在那邊問題是你沒有要求嘛大家地方看中央中央看地方嘛誰受害農民受害是"},{"start":5390.828,"end":5412.455,"text":"因為大家都沒有想到喔農民如果受損之後他的農作物產生自災他沒有趕快去做清理他沒有翻根他那些東西更嚴重啊他會造成下一季的收成有問題喔他如果在整個造成菌的影響"},{"start":5413.775,"end":5439.583,"text":"那不是我們能夠去思考的喔所以我們農民都第一時間你知道嗎楊江瓜那一天那一天11月1號下午去看早上這邊假凍立法院假凍下午去看的時候他們已經翻過一番了捏他們已經趕快做處理了我說你怎麼這麼快有委員我們如果沒趕快處理的話有可能我們下一季就發生問題了"},{"start":5441.158,"end":5442.538,"text":"農民的感受度"},{"start":5459.246,"end":5471.784,"text":"很清楚,所以楊香瓜跟紅蔥,我說到目前為止,康瑞從10月底30號那時候一直到現在多久了?"},{"start":5473.018,"end":5491.246,"text":"農田水利事業基金、農田水利事業基金及農田水利事業基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田"},{"start":5492.868,"end":5517.003,"text":"這是我們也要謝謝我們農糧署啦在我們吹的時候有去了解啦然後現在有一些問題我剛好要跟部長說啦楊江瓜北門區、將軍區、契谷區、安南區有達到整個綜合評估的救助標準現在在成合當中紅中頭也是安南區契谷有符合救助標準目前在成合中趕快公告"},{"start":5517.944,"end":5518.104,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":5536.64,"end":5561.45,"text":"這個部分還有蕎麥跟黑豆這個都是持續性持續性的自災你像蕎麥黑豆就是蕎麥是六甲區關田區黑豆是柳營區關田區北門區這個部分這個部分到底他們自災的狀況趕快速報居然還有區公所是拿3月份的資料給你們你們知不知道"},{"start":5562.21,"end":5562.39,"text":"很誇張啊!"},{"start":5562.39,"end":5566.171,"text":"真的很誇張!來部長重新因為這整個颱風、四個颱風共辦的四個颱風是從康睿一直到現在都是持續性的。現在我已經叫他報報了,趕快去訴報了解整個狀況,已經泡在水裡兩十星期了。"},{"start":5588.716,"end":5613.002,"text":"再來就是我們番茄的部分是鹽水、將軍、北門、關田、永康也趕快去有些都還沒訴報我一個一個追我得到的訊息農民給我的陳情我一個一個追這些有很多都還沒訴報還有食用玉米整個狀況都不一樣山上將軍、家裡、西港、麻豆這些拜託部長"},{"start":5614.422,"end":5633.629,"text":"請你跟區公所趕快說農業局跟農業局說請區公所趕快速報我們趕快把它彙整起來該給人家的災損公告就趕快災損公告然後一個重點就是洋香瓜跟紅蔥頭"},{"start":5635.37,"end":5649.262,"text":"拜託部長趕快公告,因為這個已經都達到了治災的標準了。其他的部分趕快要求各區公所趕快速報。再拜託。我們會繼續跟台南市政府聯絡。謝謝。謝謝陳提芬委員。請部長繼續跟台南市政府相關單位聯絡。好,請回座。好,下位質詢請謝一鋒委員。"},{"start":5679.906,"end":5681.79,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請部長"},{"start":5690.297,"end":5709.742,"text":"市長,早安。你知道現在氣候變遷嗎?你說要提高我們的農業韌性。現在台北我們大家在穿毛衣。你知道髒話,或者是更難,現在是大太陽。代表了氣候環境的改變對我們農業的影響非常大,是不是?是。"},{"start":5711.423,"end":5731.422,"text":"所以過去以來我們強力的就是在支持農業部的科技發展預算但是我發現了在我們大力支持希望我們科技發展可以協助農業生產的時候但是在農民端發生了一個問題"},{"start":5732.683,"end":5733.404,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":5749.913,"end":5750.254,"text":"我知道。但是,"},{"start":5766.623,"end":5791.583,"text":"從農民他們所接觸的生產的積雪就是說他們接觸的所有的不管是肥料也好或者是種苗也好他們會認為他們的生產成本因為技術的提高而增加而他們的收入卻沒有因為技術的就是說他們這些成本的增加而有大幅度的增加這要怎麼解決"},{"start":5792.704,"end":5816.452,"text":"我想要分兩個部分就是說品種的開發我想我們試驗單位會根據氣候變遷一些耐候性的這些品種那品種的推廣我們盡可能用推廣跟授權的方式處理那栽培技術的改良我們有農民學院還有非常多的這些說明會透過產交班來做溝通這個部分我想我們持續在做"},{"start":5816.912,"end":5817.373,"text":"對,他會認為說你補助的是機械。"},{"start":5833.192,"end":5833.352,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":5849.278,"end":5875.239,"text":"他們也會認為他們的生產成本就是業者就是那些基金業者的成本也相對的價格也會提高那造成他們成本的提高那現在又導致了我們可能我們需求不夠的情況下會導致他們沒有辦法獲得了一個就是說一個相當的收益啊是不是"},{"start":5876.139,"end":5892.548,"text":"這個我想我們已經一直在集合就是說通常我們補助下去的時候農機區的價格就變高了就變稀釋了所以我們在前端的這些市售的價格我們會不斷的去集合跟滾動檢討不要因為我們補助50%結果它的整個售價也提高了40%那這樣的話對農民來講也是一種負擔"},{"start":5900.672,"end":5920.143,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們會來努力盡量去結合相關的事項的部分。 這個問題很大。我知道。 這個問題是在於我們今天在審預算我們都一直在協助農業部的預算。 是。但是我們希望說農業部的不管是科技的發展等等的都可以協助農民但是"},{"start":5920.623,"end":5920.783,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":5941.408,"end":5965.654,"text":"當然我們知道公務人員有公務人員應有的法則但是在於災損的申報重寬重延重檢這個部分目前在基層的確沒有辦法達到那這個部分農業部也需要來檢討怎麼樣子簡化流程目前的確流程沒有達到大幅度的簡化"},{"start":5966.974,"end":5992.184,"text":"我跟您報告應該在這個月底應該在11月底的時候我們會把新的天然災害救助辦法重新更新那有一部分就是我們過往比較大的災害農業部都會有主動公告在這次四個颱風就已經呈現它很快速的可是相對的我們也發現說當農業部主動公告的越快的時候那地方政府就用喊的就是希望中央總安公告理論上來講"},{"start":5993.064,"end":5996.767,"text":"農業部不可能面對所有的限制每一個品項所以後續的整個公告的程序我們會來做簡化"},{"start":6011.3,"end":6035.131,"text":"然後做更大的一個彈性的處理才能夠達到從寬的這個跟重塑的這個態度。從目前看來的確沒有辦法達到。就是大家都沒有辦法按照說天然災害的辦法重塑重建。特別是彰化、雲林、嘉義、台南它面積比較大的時候公所的人力不夠的時候造成它的速度會變慢。"},{"start":6036.529,"end":6051.657,"text":"對 這個部分 這應該也不是公所的那個就是當農民申報的時候你們對於到底是不是補助的範圍因為有時候有耕期的問題你們也沒有辦法 沒有公告就確定他申請以後就去現勘了"},{"start":6052.977,"end":6081.278,"text":"對所以這個部分我想我們現看的人力的需求是現在目前最大的一個瓶頸啦那我們會看看天然災害救助辦法裡面有沒有辦法看看用什麼樣的方法來解決包括用天氣參數不要去現看用天氣參數直接判定那這樣的話就節省我們現看的人力喔好那還有喔像你你在推台灣的鮮乳標章喔是那我想要知道你現在推的怎麼樣"},{"start":6083.824,"end":6112.183,"text":"我想從現在目前開始有一個那個CS本身還有一個TGAP的部分那這個標章我們會鏈接到產交履歷的部分所以我們現在目前應該在那個保久乳的部分我們現在已經開始在處理這個CS的部分CS的部分還有產交履歷的部分那我們希望說透過產交履歷透過CS或TGAP的認證標章讓我們的消費者"},{"start":6112.664,"end":6115.415,"text":"為什麼從包周入開始?為什麼先入不行?"},{"start":6116.44,"end":6120.321,"text":"新的標章嗎?對,已經7月以後就設計過了。新的,已經貼在鮮乳標章了。已經改了。就是台灣的鮮乳標章。所以經過這個新的標章認證的就是台灣鮮乳。對對。那未來是連保酒乳也要同樣認證,是不是?也要認證,是這樣子的。"},{"start":6144.07,"end":6166.064,"text":"我想要知道的是現在食藥署對於這個臺灣鮮乳的標章的看法是怎麼樣?他不是對臺灣鮮乳標章是沒問題他是針對進口的長效鮮乳有沒有那個名稱他們有疑慮他們專家會議此不同的意見我們是希望說他用長效乳"},{"start":6167.705,"end":6191.316,"text":"好,不要先制,但是他們是覺得應該用長效先爐。所以他們還是不認為,他們還是需要保留先爐這個部分,是不是?對,所以因為這是衛福部他們專家會議的決定,但是我想我們還是持續的堅持我們的立場。好,那我還有一個意見,就是我們2025年傳統豬瘟是不是有可能會拔針?"},{"start":6193.615,"end":6198.177,"text":"臺灣的傳統豬瘟,你們已經提出申請了是不是?有沒有提出申請?那有沒有可能發針?絕對我們應該是非常樂觀以對,如果國內這段時間不會再發生絕對沒問題。"},{"start":6210.862,"end":6230.675,"text":"好,那我希望說你們可以非常嚴謹的處理這件事情,因為這牽涉到我們稻草要輸往日本的規定,是不是?一個關鍵,一個關鍵,是。對,因為稻草是我們臺灣農民在生產稻米的這個農廢碼,那未來如果...應該是生理制裁。"},{"start":6232.035,"end":6249.02,"text":"對,如果未來可以變成一個資材,然後變成一個可賣的產品的時候,到時候會能夠銷往日本,是不是?是。我們還是會跟檢疫,對方的檢疫談。好,半分鐘。不要再按鈴了。"},{"start":6257.461,"end":6284.341,"text":"是不是所以我們這個兩個是有聯動的那這也會協助農民減少我們這個剩餘資產然後能夠把它變成可賣那也可以增加農民的收益對不對那你應該要想辦法增加農民的收益嘛那你不能夠都不增加他的收益然後就要提高他生產成本他們怎麼可以接受是不是好謝謝"},{"start":6285.696,"end":6307.297,"text":"好,謝謝謝文委員。來,部長請回座。為謝委員精確的掌握時間,著實令人敬佩。足堪本會之楷模。待會我們鄭天才委員諮詢之後,我們會稍事休息。休息時間待會再宣布。下位諮詢請張綺楷委員。"},{"start":6331.305,"end":6357.935,"text":"請農業部陳部長委員長今天草野立委都在問你這個宣傳費用的問題你知道前幾天周院長有在說嗎不允許這個宣傳會過度集中的標案你知道嗎對不對了解了解嘛其實剛才草野立委也問你這個嘛也我看我這調的資料"},{"start":6359.403,"end":6387.088,"text":"我看你今年3、4、5、6這幾個月你這個宣傳費所有的這個標案都集中在幾個電視台啊三立從什麼用科技翻轉產業的養兒人重新出發農業專期的這個推廣三立、三立、三立、民視、民視、年代、年代、年代到後面都是中華、中華現在我們台灣電視台很多啊"},{"start":6389.253,"end":6407.871,"text":"臺北市、東森、台市、中市?東森也有啊。我跟委員報告,我們今年整個宣傳會大概有8家的媒體進來。所以我們並沒有集中說在一家、兩家的部分。什麼三位跟六位都是這四間?沒有。"},{"start":6410.049,"end":6425.456,"text":"你是議員要請教就對了是不是?沒有,我們今年度就有8家了,那不同的月份它根據不同的主題我相信會有不同的電視台或是媒體有興趣嘛。所以這個部分我想我們講說集中這兩個字對我來講8家其實應該是夠廣了啦。"},{"start":6429.338,"end":6444.19,"text":"八家裡面還是沒有TBS跟東森啊?有啊!有東森啊!有東森有中森啊!那TBS也不是拒絕往來戶啦!對我來講不是!不是啦!對!那你今年八家沒有,再想一下!還有幾間很好啊?中市中天啊!環宇啊!"},{"start":6444.75,"end":6466.259,"text":"我想我剛才也說過就是說針對媒體的部分我們也會針對我們政策宣導的目的就如同委員所提到我們的廣度要夠那廣度夠的話我們會去了解不同的媒體的他的社群對象是什麼我們盡量開拓這個廣度以這個角度來思考我懂你的意思現在就是說我現在主要的主要就是市場嘛"},{"start":6467.579,"end":6492.653,"text":"那過度集中這個就是違反左院長講的啦你現在還有背景嘛對不對那我更進一步要求你你剛講的我跟你共識是一樣的我們多廣一點好不好包括TPS可能想一下好不好或者其他一些優質媒體寰宇啦這一些好來那另外我們來談內容現在來看內容那個來我們看一下這個柏丁你看左邊這一張圖你有看過這張圖嗎我看過你有看過"},{"start":6495.322,"end":6523.716,"text":"這是你農業部長一個單位做的這樣這一張在最近的農村流傳的很廣很多農民來抗議我先跟你討論一下右邊是我做的左邊是你做的啦左邊這一張你可以做你要做宣傳我覺得OK可是它有很多的地方真的是有汙名化供糧收購都跟我同感這樣你說短期內糧價上漲面積會增加面積增加你看右邊這一張"},{"start":6525.506,"end":6551.907,"text":"你在100年的時候調了3塊錢,它隔一年面積增加多少?才0.7公頃。再往後面一年也是0.8,有像你說的面積增加很多嗎?沒有對不對?第二個,你這個文宣品為什麼會是引起農民那麼多抗議?你要嘛你就每一個年度都有啊,你從民國99年100年,結果你一下跳到103,那一下又跳107,"},{"start":6553.683,"end":6553.823,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":6576.937,"end":6583.419,"text":"我們有一個共識就是慢慢來嘛我現在給你看的就是100年調高那一次大概3年3年都還是很低好OK那3年事實上不是因為公糧收購啦你只要乘起重費要去推了一個叫做倒坐直接給付嗎?"},{"start":6604.417,"end":6623.521,"text":"你這個土裡面最嚴重的農民是要抗疫最多的就陳其中在105年的時候開始在試行這個所謂的這個直接擠布的時候他導致去種的人增多嘛這個跟宮廷說過已經沒有關係了可是你把他扣在這邊你看看你看這個圖我右邊給你框起來105年到106到107他為什麼本來已經降下來了對不對他為什麼又跑上去"},{"start":6631.758,"end":6643.488,"text":"就是因為有陳其中這個新的這個措施啊那你後來發現不對陳其中後來把這個取消掉啦結果你都沒有把陳其中做的到座直接起步這個事情把它解釋清楚"},{"start":6644.99,"end":6663.366,"text":"農民跟工人收購不就是被黑鍋了嗎?是不是這樣?我想不是這樣子的齁。所有的稻作的價格跟稻作的面積基本上就是一個供需的部分。然後最重要的就是產地價格。你看以今年來講,現在目前的產地價格已經達到百台金已經一千兩百。"},{"start":6665.168,"end":6666.369,"text":"部長,所以你是不是忽略了那個105年開始?"},{"start":6694.867,"end":6715.854,"text":"市辦106年開始擴大,然後107年前面實施的倒座直接給付。你有看到嗎?所有的波動都是在那幾年啊。你看你看你左邊你先出去的圖,你看喔。你看左下角這個,他的這個公糧收購這個量啊,本來你調高之後,慢慢慢慢,可是他成長很慢喔。一下飆很高,到54萬公噸、57、56。你整年出什麼事?就陳其頌的這個..."},{"start":6720.066,"end":6727.198,"text":"到時候直接起步阿那你再看喔往上面看往上面看你說開始一般的這個糧價開始往下掉對不對也是那幾年阿"},{"start":6729.045,"end":6757.01,"text":"所以你先：我先說你先回去研究這個我都研究過我們研究得非常清楚了你從你這張圖你也可以看得出來當你面積提高的時候價格就降低對所以我們現在是希望一個合理的價格是在24萬公頃阿董說面積為什麼會增加就是因為陳其中給了一個沒有這裡有時候還有停灌還有很多天災的關係性影響所以沒有辦法所以我們在這個處理的時候我們絕對不會把單一因素放進去"},{"start":6758.13,"end":6760.612,"text":"所以你從這個圖看得出來,增加的面積沒有像你講的那麼多。 有到27啊。"},{"start":6784.545,"end":6790.369,"text":"公糧收購那時候影響已經很低了那時候是因為農業部陳其仲做了一個倒坐直接集會那你說不是單一OK我同意你要把整個整體去談可是你不能完全歸罪在這個公糧收購對不對"},{"start":6811.203,"end":6829.541,"text":"好不好 這個再研究一下啦 這張圖我跟你講 這張圖是很多專家、很多農民 我了解 我跟委員報告齁 我也不是把所有的面積提高歸最在公糧的價格提高 我也沒有這樣講說百分之百就是公糧提高 我們的目標是讓我們的稻農所得大家都能夠"},{"start":6830.936,"end":6833.817,"text":"我今天提出這個質詢是我希望你要看得到到時候直接幾乎這個影響。"},{"start":6852.363,"end":6852.583,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":6869.992,"end":6870.112,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":6884.144,"end":6889.347,"text":"媒體在問說現在目前的雞蛋的行情一下高一下低是不是要農業部啟動聯合稽查嘛那我的回應是說"},{"start":6902.954,"end":6911.161,"text":"當它的起伏有超出異常的時候,我們會啟動聯絡基查,而且要有證據的時候我們就會聯絡基查。"},{"start":6936.513,"end":6963.901,"text":"好,我們在鄭天才委員之後,我們會休息齁。下一位資訊請鄭天才委員。請農業部陳部長。委員好。"},{"start":6984.515,"end":6999.385,"text":"就去推動這個工糧收購能夠調高好我們看這個這一次康瑞颱風造成義理鎮鹽城部落的房屋整個房子你看被淹滿被淹滿"},{"start":7002.096,"end":7007.655,"text":"表示這個土石流之多非常的嚴重"},{"start":7009.229,"end":7034.84,"text":"您看這個,這個比較高一點的也被淹埋了一半以上,一半以上。比較低的部分就整個一被淹埋了,這個舊的房子。所以它這個被淹埋得非常非常的嚴重。所以像這樣的一個情形,這個不曉得我們農業部有沒有去了解這個地方?有,我想我們這個部分,土著類的部分我們有去了解,而且有給予協助。"},{"start":7036.905,"end":7044.128,"text":"因為委員有在關心,特別我們也欣賞看。我們後續再跟委員說明。另外就是在豐濱港口,這次也是崗位颱風造成土石。"},{"start":7061.91,"end":7062.091,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":7070.387,"end":7097.862,"text":"海水溝上面大石頭等於堵住造成土石從旁邊還好家戶沒有造成人員的傷亡所以這個部分是也請農業部 這個也有處理我想我們也有經費有跟公所那邊聯絡來做經費的一個協助 好謝謝你也把書面資料提供"},{"start":7099.841,"end":7120.627,"text":"好,我們現在談預算。這個114年度的預算,我是舉兩個案例,我們就以這個農村發展及水土保持署作為案例。你看我們那個整體性治山防災的預算,其中這裡面提到,"},{"start":7122.012,"end":7131.181,"text":"這個整個預算是45億多,其中投注在原住民族地區5億1000多萬,45億裡面有5億多投注在原住民族地區。"},{"start":7146.533,"end":7174.633,"text":"我們看這個大規模崩塌及不安定土砂防撿災。這裡面投入在原住民族第7的有一億多的經費。這樣的一個處理、寫法到農業部或是水利所各或是水保署的相關機關可能不是很清楚。"},{"start":7175.942,"end":7201.695,"text":"過去一開始經濟部水利署對於那個自來水的無自來水的一個處理一開始他們也是用原住民族地區我後來建議他們要以原住民族部落為基礎後來他們才了解原住民族地區是什麼呢?譬如說整個花蓮縣都是原住民族地區"},{"start":7203.221,"end":7230.501,"text":"花蓮市是原住民族第7、吉安鄉是原住民族第7事實上原住民的人口、原住民的部落都集中在某個地方部落是不同的所以不能以原住民族第7作為一個範圍來去計算原住民相關的經費要以什麼呢?"},{"start":7231.448,"end":7260.843,"text":"要以原住民族基本法第二條要以部落是中央人民會所核定的部落所核定的部落作為一個來去計算或者是有涉及到譬如說這個涉及到家戶或個人為核心的也可以所以我們看這個農業部相關的這些預算包括主計單位必須要去了解"},{"start":7263.57,"end":7276.085,"text":"農田水利快意整合、整體性防災、加強水庫集水期治理計劃、國有林治理五億多。"},{"start":7281.547,"end":7299.08,"text":"農地重劃期基礎建設8100萬還有國庫補充到農田水利事業的基金3000多萬類似像這樣的農村再生建設及發展計畫農村三村綠色2.35億"},{"start":7303.056,"end":7322.463,"text":"農田水利設施6點多億這個都必須但我建議放在我們原住民部落更好所以我的建議是預算書的自用說明就把它改為原住民族部落這樣的話會更符合實際的需求"},{"start":7323.383,"end":7342.202,"text":"我跟委員報告改這個變成部落我絕對同意但是它不是重點重點是當不管是原住民部落或是因為整個現在那個土石流或大規模崩塌都在山區那山區的話不管它是不是屬於原住民部落我們會根據它的潛勢溪流本身的風險"},{"start":7343.183,"end":7343.223,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":7364.119,"end":7392.889,"text":"基本上啊,農業部的大部分會跟原住民族的部落會有關係了。但是不是全部。幾個例子,譬如說這個河仁、蘇花公路那個河仁到崇德這個之間,有一部分是我們的部落,有很大部分不是我們的部落。所以這個部分,你說全部要把它算進去也不太好。所以這個部分是一個跟那個農業部以及相關的屬,做一個溝通。好,我們看這個,"},{"start":7395.253,"end":7395.513,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":7417.625,"end":7418.066,"text":"發言委員：發言委員"},{"start":7426.601,"end":7426.681,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":7450.137,"end":7469.757,"text":"我跟委員報告齁這個是發言縣政府在執行的案子那我想我們農業部也不認同用這種方式應該其他還有其他改善的更細緻的作為去清除啦那這個部分我想我們會跟縣政府來討論不只是他們啦因為你們現在是屬地主義啊有的是你們嘛齁"},{"start":7470.538,"end":7470.638,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":7489.955,"end":7490.575,"text":"有時候車手比較少。"},{"start":7936.195,"end":7938.197,"text":"現在還沒有呀,拋不起來了。"},{"start":7997.281,"end":8016.678,"text":"來,現在繼續開會。下一位之員請陳超明委員。首先謝謝各位。那有請我們農業部陳部長。請農業部陳部長。"},{"start":8024.898,"end":8043.127,"text":"委員長好、部長好、部長好。我第一個問題跟你請教,不然我拜託會很多。我看你公共建設裡面有農產品兩年物流,你113年34.73億,到114年16.42億,你一次減20億。我每次執行你說苗栗要兩年物流,"},{"start":8054.756,"end":8079.532,"text":"你告訴我不會缺席,我信心實質,但是我看到預算的時候,我又開始睡不著覺了。這個到底有沒有啦,你要告訴我一下。我跟委員報告,第一點就是說,114年度的部分,我們是114到117,那整個大計畫大概將近有71億左右。那這個部分,行政院還在審查。"},{"start":8080.733,"end":8095.504,"text":"但是他先編列了114那114的部分是最主要是處理那個之前還在興建的這個部分然後第二個部分就是有一部分的畜牧的部分有移出來"},{"start":8096.365,"end":8099.747,"text":"我們已經在審查,審查通過的話,我們一定會想辦法去爭取預算去自印。"},{"start":8121.219,"end":8130.421,"text":"阿我廟的管省府有的這兩年有的開一頁這個土地,要把這個做好,阿你說審查你盡量盡事,阿我同過好不好?對,我說114到117國安會正在審查我們的整體的一個經費,已經審查過的時候,我們經費的編列我只要聽你說有跟沒有,阿你告訴我有,我才會效果出來。這事情不是說"},{"start":8152.146,"end":8179.122,"text":"還有一些前提就是說行政院要核定這個經費以後我們才會處理嘛。合定下來就是苗栗縣一定有啦。苗栗縣本身的審查計畫通過以後才會執行嘛。所以兩個前提要決定。農糧署市長你代表好好拜託啊。我已經拜託你十幾次了跟他溝通而已啊。這樣而已啊。給我加油一下。好啊。好,謝謝。再來啊,某地方我很擔心一個問題。"},{"start":8180.97,"end":8188.197,"text":"我實在講,我發覺,我們說我們臺灣的農業很強,我覺得農業非常的脆弱,我為這個事情是給你們一個警惕,你講斑斑有先人,我們現在要加入CPTPP,我們是以前開發中的國家,"},{"start":8203.471,"end":8219.648,"text":"變成已開發的國家,你一個鮮乳,為紐西蘭進口鮮乳一百,因為我早就處理這個問題,我才知道。現在零關稅來,你現在一個鮮乳就搞到我們台灣整個鮮乳業變動那麼大。"},{"start":8223.893,"end":8243.864,"text":"現在紐西蘭領先者還有其他的國家有很多先者在我們加日CPTPP我們以最高的水準我們跟日本一樣跟新加坡一樣跟美國一樣跟加拿大一樣全面開發農產品的進口你要如何運用"},{"start":8246.196,"end":8269.321,"text":"外國委員報告就是加入CPTPP以後其實一個非常大的挑戰就是關稅的問題對那關稅的問題有立即降稅的有一些有他的時間點降稅的那雖然說以CPTPP本身現在的平均關稅率大概96%但是也有一些國家是例外的他的關稅不一定都是零關稅他有的是"},{"start":8269.821,"end":8294.506,"text":"像日本就是70幾而已。我現在這叫做全消散,還你鍛鍊身體,你保管物流保管才好。你班班有先人,我再教你一個絕招。你不要只有靠同一,像黑松哪裡都有經銷商,只要他有冷凍庫,你再補一點錢給他送到學校,每一個人幾個瑕疵一塊就該關了。不要死守那幾個祭典賽。"},{"start":8295.626,"end":8299.73,"text":"我感謝委員的建議。那我們在下一次的那個學校的學童的宣禮的部分,我們會有更好的更精進的方式。兩個原則。"},{"start":8312.32,"end":8319.125,"text":"委員我告訴你喔未來我們在推動那個學童乳的部分有兩個原則第一個原則就是說我不會再讓我們的學校的老師造成任何的負擔那學校的老師"},{"start":8334.396,"end":8334.496,"text":"再來啊齁"},{"start":8352.657,"end":8365.937,"text":"你這個科技發展只有50億我看了一些資料今天昨天的報紙說農業科技我們的種苗、疫苗各方面就是等於晶片一樣"},{"start":8367.489,"end":8388.894,"text":"我常常在看你們的科專計畫裡面,我覺得很難找,你要農業做好,我們就像胸片一樣,要有很好的品種、很好的異種出來。但是到這裡,我早就跟你們說,把你們科研的計畫理念,有好的新的產品,不要緊張,問題還沒問到。"},{"start":8394.059,"end":8397.502,"text":"我常常看,你大公,噢,臺灣的農業行為,但臺灣又選到產品,我又不贊我肯定選到產品。"},{"start":8402.581,"end":8421.174,"text":"我自己怎麼說這個問題,你們的風鈴我大概五本雜誌我一定要看,風鈴還有什麼農場椅什麼還有茶葉桌,這多看多擺地形,那你們有這麼好的研發,你應該要收取出來讓我們去了解,這裡這麼多禮物在哪裡,不像我在政科。"},{"start":8424.336,"end":8450.381,"text":"因為我一直在看這些有沒有新的東西,看烏閣蜘蛛繩,如果你海邊把它種下來,那整個景觀不一樣,價值又高。你只用水供,沒有拿一些資料展現你們科技的研發成果。你們的成功研驗,你們的農業實驗所、林業實驗所、醫業實驗所那麼多,我就不知道你們在做什麼。"},{"start":8451.241,"end":8468.061,"text":"我向委員報告,這點我們也在檢討,就是我們的臺灣的90%以上的研發成果都是我們試驗單位提供的可是他們的宣導我是覺得說沒有一些系統性的宣導讓農民知道,那這個部分我想我們會來努力由科技市這邊來主責。"},{"start":8470.103,"end":8489.314,"text":"我感謝你很好,我有開始,我自己看了幾本雜誌,我還買以前的。我的詩繪裡面只有把這些紅蓮、農業的雜誌我自己都喜歡出。我們每一集都可以送給委員看。每一集都可以送給委員。每一集都可以看,因為看了可以再多寫,多新的。是。去炒賭也有本錢。我告訴你這是借的,好不好?好。再來一項問題比較嚴重。我們的農業金庫董事長有沒有來?沒有。"},{"start":8500.54,"end":8512.912,"text":"我們有農金署的署長有來。好。講到這個問題就很敏感。您進口蛋的時候,就是超支阿。阿你農業金庫,齁,都中酒齁,這個..."},{"start":8517.714,"end":8525.519,"text":"中央市產會農政十五頁,不管多少,你先聽我說,你不要自己辯排,7.5億有擔保,7.5億沒有擔保,沒有擔保你這樣處理,你們都沒人講話,還是講家對講家,講家好辦事情,隨便通融都可以。"},{"start":8548.598,"end":8566.212,"text":"我向委員報告,這個農業金庫的一個融資貸款的部分,它一定合於相關的規定。那它的擔保的部分由農信保這邊來擔保。報告主席延長兩分鐘,拜託一下。那大概一分半好了。不是一分半,都一分鐘而已。我現在請教你,你農業金庫換工股的,你占了41.62%。"},{"start":8573.666,"end":8577.887,"text":"農業部37.59、農業信保基約4.03、Gaia 41.6但是換農業會的體系是58.33現在農業金庫的五席獨立董事由於農業部指派我們推薦"},{"start":8597.106,"end":8618.86,"text":"這當然是法規的問題,跟現在的同儲分配款相關,誰當家、誰當錢,又有錢又有錢都不想放,但是你是還在出生的。我覺得農業基金庫的獨立董事,你也要"},{"start":8620.25,"end":8639.049,"text":"民間的股份你也要尊重。你知道嗎?現在公司法跟證券交易法,裡面有股票超過1%就有資格推薦這個獨立董事。阿你現在泛民股50倍的"},{"start":8640.47,"end":8657.964,"text":"沒有一點推薦的權利。我曉得這時代的背景,看你有沒有大作為。你如果這樣子去溫泉的換農業,那個換農業會體系將五十八%你也要留三個兩個人才有監督的作用。"},{"start":8658.804,"end":8679.469,"text":"因為時間的關係,我跟委員報告,我們會後是不是再跟委員做充分的說明。好,這個改進一下,要有社會公平的觀念。我想我們會跟委員做充分的說明。兩分鐘到底你怎麼站起來,不是要給我嗎?你以為我問這樣敏感的問題你就跳出來啊。這個問題我也想了解,這個也一起來跟我講一下。"},{"start":8680.809,"end":8686.031,"text":"這問題很重要,我也想了解。你也想問啊,問短一點,你要繼續的問,繼續的追,謝謝。繼續關心。謝謝陳昌平委員,謝謝。部長請回座。下一位質詢請楊瓊英委員。謝謝主席,邀請部長。請陳部長。"},{"start":8711.67,"end":8731.455,"text":"委員長部長我們討論一個國際民生的議題美國勞動部在10月5號發布最新同工及強迫勞動製品清單再度將台灣遠洋漁業列入你看到這個訊息嗎有"},{"start":8733.669,"end":8757.652,"text":"那怎麼辦?為什麼會發生這個事情?第三度為什麼?我跟委員說明齁就是其實勞動部本身就是美國勞動部那邊齁其實在近年度有來臺灣齁做一些瞭解那實際上經過他們的瞭解他們也確認了其實我們有非常大的努力了特別是但他一樣給我們這麼公佈啊沒有那我們怎麼應對呢?我想第一個請教"},{"start":8758.693,"end":8777.564,"text":"你是台灣遠洋漁業季2020年又首度上榜耶!第三次遭受獵民耶!是怎麼回事啊?是真的假的?我跟委員報告齁,就是說第一個就是說他們的勞動條件的部分齁,他們是希望說我們的遠洋移工的部分"},{"start":8778.024,"end":8778.064,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":8804.312,"end":8824.933,"text":"愚民在愚上的作業的勞動條件我們做了很大的改善第二個他的生活的條件的部分當他下船了以後我們給他有更多的一些自由的空間部長你現在所說的跟他跟你講的都完全不搭嘎他告訴你說外籍移工遭仲介不實工資契約來欺騙"},{"start":8826.895,"end":8844.144,"text":"被迫簽了仲介費、簽下了借貸契約、悲哉的龐大的債務,而且他的身份證被扣留,然後每天在18到22小時惡劣的環境工作,遭受到肢體暴力跟言語的凌辱。"},{"start":8845.945,"end":8870.945,"text":"甚至他的薪資跟住宿數費呢也都被非法的扣除他講的這些到底是真的還假的啦你不要只講你自己人家提煉這些我給委員報告第一個部分就是有關於仲介相關的費用的部分因為我們遠洋漁工是境外僱用境外解僱都是在境外的對方國那邊在出名的"},{"start":8871.966,"end":8880.092,"text":"所以我們在這邊所以我們現在透過外管的部分齁我們希望說有更好的那他所列的幫我們列這二名他講的屬不屬實沒有本期就很分開啊到底是真的假的嗎他是有一些誤會齁他是有一些誤會你有沒有澄清"},{"start":8889.378,"end":8897.144,"text":"我們有澄清的部分,我們在他來臺灣的時候我們也澄清,我們之前在發布之前我們就已經已經經過非常多次的會議跟溝通,10月5號他發布了這個之後所講的內容你認為有不實,你有沒有發出澄清?"},{"start":8913.955,"end":8928.226,"text":"我跟委員報告齁我們也跟AIT的部分因為AIT的部分我們黃市長也親自有沒有發出澄清如果依照他敘述的這個真的是很恐怖我們應該有一些新聞稿在處理這是很恐怖欸"},{"start":8928.986,"end":8932.827,"text":"所以我再一次請調因為我們現在臺美21世紀的這個貿易倡議正在談判談判到勞動專章這個是我們的機會如果他講的是不屬實我們要強制抵制強制抗議啊怎麼可以隨便跟我們列明如果萬一是有我們也要有我們的因應方案啊你不能臭名這樣子一直三次被列啊"},{"start":8956.374,"end":8983.709,"text":"我需要檢討的部分。 那你叫我們遠洋漁業那些人怎麼辦?對,我都需要那個檢討的部分,我們已經在檢討,但是有一個非常重要的就是他們一直希望我們遠洋漁工納入我們的牢記法可是在我們的實務上因為我們是境外僱用境外解僱我們所有的那個勞檢的部分衛生安全的部分是沒有辦法跟國內的牢記法在一起但是我們確定了我們用同樣的精神但是我們用其他的方式去"},{"start":8984.81,"end":8989.732,"text":"非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":8999.932,"end":9005.874,"text":"非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":9026.061,"end":9030.204,"text":"非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利"},{"start":9050.079,"end":9072.797,"text":"這個送到學校如果沒有冷藏庫半個小時之後就要倒掉所以學校也沒有辦法那老師也雞飛狗跳那現在竟然搞了一個最後討論了最後誰不負責教育部也不負責農業部也不負責到底誰要負責說那由學校你自行去決定你要不要現在還是如此嗎"},{"start":9075.962,"end":9080.426,"text":"現在誰決定我學校沒有冷藏庫我也不敢說我不要啊還有叫學生一次帶八瓶的薄酒乳薄酒乳跟我們的鮮乳一樣嗎帶了八瓶的薄酒乳回去給誰喝啊你可以這樣子亂花錢嗎這個有幫助到我們的落農嗎那現在誰決定為什麼要限學校的校長於不義沒有人敢說不要"},{"start":9102.465,"end":9129.294,"text":"發了薄酒乳這怎麼回事啊這麼多錢亂花我跟委員報告齁就是學校在這段時間特別是老師在協助的部分我們非常感謝但是在整個的整個的一個學校訂購的部分齁薄酒乳的確高於鮮乳他跟現在目前當然啊我沒有冷藏庫我當然要薄酒乳啊不要在內行的公寡行為啦要怎麼辦啊我們後續我想我們要不要這個政策要不要持續"},{"start":9130.554,"end":9157.419,"text":"這個政策一定會持續。好不容易我們找到4年44億要幫助我們的弱農幫助我們的孩子搞得這樣子。我先謝謝委員那委員也提供一些意見就是說我們基本上不會再用今年像現在目前的共同供應契約現在怎麼做?我們後續我們會再去更謹慎的考慮兩個前提我們新的政策絕對不會讓學校的老師增加負擔一定會送到班上去第二個部分就是誰送?"},{"start":9158.579,"end":9176.207,"text":"就是我們會用其他的方式包括用我們現在的團散的方式去搭配去合作啦對就是合作的部分你看我們為了校園安全我們拜託便利商店學校旁邊有便利商店他們都有主機我說你加碼鏡頭對著我們的學校有什麼事情我們可以馬上調這個資料就有了人家都很願意耶"},{"start":9184.511,"end":9206.967,"text":"你部長應該去研擬方案不管你談戰也好不管你什麼方案什麼時候可以研擬方案出來我想我們在這個月底會跟行政院報告報告完以後我們就會這個月底你這個研擬方案絕對不能再打擾我們的這個學校那真正的目的是要照顧我們的農農這個是目的好再來"},{"start":9210.149,"end":9217.314,"text":"蘭姨豬扣關我們國內的國產豬肉競爭好不容易當時的農委會現在的農業部我們4年的養豬白益養基金輔導我請教部長你到現在今年剩下51億128.3億4年你剩下51億但是還是有很多人排隊申請不到"},{"start":9240.83,"end":9257.605,"text":"為什麼當時你們的128億多你們一定有去針對我們的量體需求那你現在甚至今年上午是1億接下來要怎麼做我申請一堆的人在那排隊照著你的程序在走怎麼辦"},{"start":9258.706,"end":9260.327,"text":"你現在告訴我兩個原則第一個也就是你目前所做的"},{"start":9287.6,"end":9306.738,"text":"你持續在爭取預算。第二個,人家已經申請的,你是務必要讓人家達證成功。對不對?我們計劃核定的話,我們一定會想辦法讓它經費到位。這個我們一定會來努力。就是持續把它完成嘛。那為什麼你的128億當時,為什麼會落差那麼大?是錢亂花?"},{"start":9312.223,"end":9327.503,"text":"還是怎麼回事呢?還是挪用到其他的地方去?本席具體覺得邏輯很奇怪。我跟委員報告喔,128億的百億基金是專款專用,不能移到別的地方去。對啊,那為什麼會落差那麼大呢?"},{"start":9328.544,"end":9328.564,"text":"謝謝楊委員謝謝"},{"start":9359.637,"end":9379.562,"text":"請我們召委、求助委員執行。阿董委員不耐煩,沒有關係啦。像我這個時間就是說延長兩分鐘再加一分鐘。謝謝陳沙明委員當主席是非常的公正、非常的客觀,令人敬佩。謝謝主席。有請農業部陳部長。"},{"start":9388.271,"end":9408.625,"text":"第二問題請教川普上來之後我們央行楊金榮總裁對於這個川普執政之後可能會產生的國際經貿的變局他可能提出建議希望能夠加強加大對美國的採購他具體的建議是央行總裁"},{"start":9409.878,"end":9436.802,"text":"那目前從美國進口到國內的農業產品有哪些項目?大概金額是多少錢?我跟委員報告齁,就是跟美國比較大眾的採購就是我們的飼料的玉米跟大豆。那這個部分我想我們每一年或是每隔年的時候我們就會組一個團。你說是飼料跟大豆?對,飼料玉米。未來有沒有可能已經增加稻米呢?"},{"start":9437.262,"end":9445.347,"text":"農業部有沒有擬定相關的因應方案會加強對美國農漁產品的採購?對,我們對農漁產品的採購基本上是我剛才說的是以我們國內所缺的飼料玉米跟大豆。未來會增加哪些品項?大概就是玉米那個力道會加強。"},{"start":9462.737,"end":9481.418,"text":"那個是他們現在特別是玉米跟飼料玉米跟飼料他每年應該是3.7百億美金喔那個3.7 billion應該是37那現在從美國進口值你未來可能會增加到未來一年可能會增加到多少這個我們還我們現在還在還在做精算品價會不會增加"},{"start":9482.383,"end":9482.883,"text":"從中國出口值的佔比"},{"start":9508.49,"end":9522.676,"text":"逐年是降低,目前大概是10%左右,出口值也大概到5億多。未來有沒有可能繼續再調降?因為在中國生產,出口到中國的確是有很大的風險。"},{"start":9523.556,"end":9552.225,"text":"是,我想中國市場當然我們不會放棄但是中國市場以外的高端市場是我們積極努力的一個目標那以過去3年,應該4年之間我們消亡中國以外的市場其實從38億美元變成43億美元分散市場我要講的是你從中國的佔比是從20降到10對不對,這很明顯但是到日本的出口值卻沒有明顯增加去美國的出口值也沒有明顯增加"},{"start":9552.785,"end":9578.211,"text":"所以你要分散東協市場那增加幅度不高啦沒有 我們是分散所以每一個國家增加的幅度加起來我剛才說的已經比過去109年38億現在變成43億了足足增加了5億但是 overall 來看啦你們整體出口市場是衰退的狀況並沒有並沒有在網上在這個大幅度的提升我希望要拿出積極的作為把這個出口市場能夠大躍進大成長"},{"start":9580.692,"end":9586.154,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":9611.516,"end":9621.402,"text":"農民退休基金及農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農業特別收入基金及農業特別收入基金及農業特別收入基金及農業特別收入基金及農業特別收入基金及農業特別收入基金及農業特別收入基金及農業特別收入基金及農業"},{"start":9631.668,"end":9656.638,"text":"另外,養殖漁業振興二期計畫,這個我去看過好多次了,我想王署長也知道,現在這個部分,我們在永安是石斑魚生產基地,目前永安LNG的海水管線供水面積只有450公頃,那你這些計畫裡面,第二期的計畫能不能優先把永安做的第二期計畫推動要點,推動地點。"},{"start":9659.527,"end":9687.519,"text":"對,我想我們之前也討論過就是永安那邊的那個海水供應系統我們會列為一個優先但是也會再跟高雄市政府這邊來討論現在最大的問題在哪裡?現在最大問題在哪裡?跟委員報告齁,現在LNG廠因為往後延伸會那個要加壓的問題來跟高雄市政府來討論積極好不好趕快把第二期的這個落實到永安因為還有大概750公頃還沒有列入這個範圍嗎?"},{"start":9689.218,"end":9715.717,"text":"是 那後續我們跟高雄市政委來討論來往後延伸的問題第三個問題想討論這個我們農地的生產如果以農戶來看廣義的農家跟主力農家他的所得有差距然後這個主力農家是大概目前有21.2萬戶但是這個只佔總體農家的不到三成但是他的收入高達七成五"},{"start":9716.938,"end":9742.407,"text":"這部分你怎麼樣你如果這個生產規模越大他的這個獲益能力越強嘛這沒有問題嘛好這種情況之下我們現在農地租賃的主要依據民法跟第375減租這些相關的規範但是又面臨到農業勞動力老化跟規模化的經營的需求那農業部針對這個問題你們有沒有規劃今天更完善農地租賃的專法或者配套措施"},{"start":9743.347,"end":9758.754,"text":"我想現在目前農業的租賃的部分最大的一個問題就是口頭約的部分那口頭約的部分最主要也是375減租的一個陰影所以我們現在建立了這個租賃的一個平台但是其實我們也檢討這個租賃平台效果並不是那麼好"},{"start":9759.434,"end":9759.574,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":9775.459,"end":9775.519,"text":"非營業部分："},{"start":9805.292,"end":9813.096,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分．非營業部分．非農田水利事業作業基金及所屬單位預算部分．非營業部分．非農田水利事業作業基金及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":9827.883,"end":9828.604,"text":"你那個農損的部分"},{"start":9852.887,"end":9872.516,"text":"我們每年讓天災這個極端氣候從2021到2023啦你們救助的比例大概就是每年天災農損的大概三成左右不到三成你是有一定的比例嗎我們現在目前救助是用他災損的百分之二十以上時間到齁那你這個我這個問題再用書面回答給我好謝謝"},{"start":9882.151,"end":9894.463,"text":"我代理主席啊,那個部長給我再講一下,我榮奉以感,我看到榮奉以感,將近百億,我給你挨個3億、5億很困難,你覺得要再給我倒數幹什麼,不然他們常常請我來代理啦,謝謝。來你來。"},{"start":9907.797,"end":9934.538,"text":"部長剛剛陳代理主席講的請農業部多加重視好謝謝陳昊平委員下一位資訊委員請賴玉瑞農委員好謝謝主席請陳部長請農業部陳部長前面兩位委員都講得很好我都給予認同並同我的一併支持"},{"start":9937.221,"end":9956.969,"text":"部長,我先請教,上禮拜有問到濾烈溪的問題,現在雲林、雲林以南都淪陷了,這問題嚴重,上次有講到20萬支,我看到你們在接下來有4個年度,並非1.2億的經費,每年大概3000萬來做處理,部長接下來要怎麼做?"},{"start":9957.523,"end":9967.705,"text":"我想第一個我會把經費再做一些調整第二個部分就是經費什麼調整我想現在目前編列的部分大概是他是跟還有一些那個叫做"},{"start":9972.903,"end":9998.719,"text":"埃及聖環本身的一些經費我們可以做調整埃及聖環本身的這些獵捕的這些動作其實可以複製在濾烈器的部分那相對的埃及聖環本身它有一組團隊用獵槍的方式去處理那濾烈器的部分現在是沒有所以未來我們會組一個團隊所以會朝向用空氣槍的方式"},{"start":10000.56,"end":10023.608,"text":"有沒有一個目標啊?因為你四年每年三千萬這樣子其實第一年最重要的其實要趕快嚇阻下來如果你二十萬只是要慢慢漲到三十四十上去你越來越難處理了我現在就擔心的就是我們捕捉的數量遠比他繁殖的數量你一定要比他還要來得快他只會越來越多嘛有沒有預定這個量?對我現在先"},{"start":10024.088,"end":10053.042,"text":"不討論量,我先跟委員報告我們現在會用民間如果抓的話我們也給他獎勵這個獎勵金提高的話民間現在是大致500、小致200嗎?再加碼多少?比照嗎?我們可能會用變成500或800的方式變成500、800的方式去處理小致500、大致800對,用這樣的方式去處理加碼到小致500、大致800類似這樣子的概念,我們會精算預定可以達到多大的成效?量多少?"},{"start":10058.884,"end":10078.436,"text":"我們現在會協調縣市政府啦,因為過去這段時間...預定的目標咧,總要編的預算總要一個預定目標吧,20萬支...我們希望捕捉的那個支數可以逐年開始減少啦,對,因為現在...捕捉支數要增加,總體量要減少。對,所以我們每年捕捉的...有沒有一個預定的量?"},{"start":10079.665,"end":10089.603,"text":"必須要編出來找到一個目標值吧?我們希望4年內可以讓它壓縮到在這個高雄、屏東、以南那不能夠往北擴"},{"start":10091.266,"end":10094.968,"text":"於明以來都已經淪陷了嘛,所以你應該每一個都要做,而且你不要只抓"},{"start":10113.875,"end":10135.619,"text":"聽起來你好像屏東、高雄以南,那難道先放屏東、高雄,其他先抓?屏東、高雄現在也在抓。對,我跟你說,部長,這總體要數量要降下來。我希望看到有個具體的成果,比如說如果明年的目標先把10萬隻都抓下來的話,那你至少控制住了一半的數量了嘛。"},{"start":10135.979,"end":10164.993,"text":"對我跟委員報告齁就是第一個部分就是各縣市我們一定讓他同步然後因為上禮拜開始我們密集的討論那到時候年度的目標我想我們會後等這個規劃出來以後我們再提供給委員當參考要加快那個速度啦你後面越賞越多你越難處理啦你前面如果有辦法在明年度把他控制比如說控制到10萬支甚至10萬以下的數量的話那你至少取得一個出息很大的一個成功你後面的控制就更好控制嘛"},{"start":10165.273,"end":10188.572,"text":"瞭解我想我們會查這個目標來做加碼然後用更專業的方式去捕捉然後用人道的方式來做處理我認為這是一個好的方法我希望加大力道然後一定要統籌啦要不然你這邊抓完那邊跑這邊抓那邊跑縣市間沒有統籌的話由部會間然後由農業部來加碼來做處理我認為是個有效我期盼明年好不好至少降一半好不好"},{"start":10189.272,"end":10192.794,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分：非營業部分：非營業部分：非營業部分：非營業部分：非營業部分：非營業部分：非營業部分：非營業部分："},{"start":10219.208,"end":10248.161,"text":"因為前面黃色的大概在12月初大概陸續都會出來了啦應該影響是不大那應該現在看比較大的大概在會在1月的上旬、中旬的時候發生嘛對不對大概年就是年前的部分啦過年前開始如果量過大的話有可能會出現那時候但是就不會再做我還是希望加強做宣導跟說明好不好對我們會來強調那特別是我們在做警示的時候的育苗場我們現在想辦法控制苗量的出貨啦"},{"start":10248.641,"end":10264.189,"text":"所以其實那個應該是說苗量超過一定以上告訴你你這些苗將來如果你虧損我是不服服你的。前面如果在前面出的應該那些還是要去...我們針對前端的這些疫苗檔出貨的部分我想我們會更想到一個方法"},{"start":10264.569,"end":10288.852,"text":"我例如說你們要再更細緻去規劃出來這會後再給我要更細緻就是前面的你還是會幫他負起一些責任但是如果已經超過了我告訴你不能再種了你還硬要種硬要去拼的話那我就不負責那一塊了政策上應該是這樣比較公平吧後續的育苗廠如果你繼續出貨的話我們也不給他補助任何的育苗對就是要用這樣的方式啦我已經警告你超量的你還硬要再種的這些我就不負責了我也不補了"},{"start":10289.412,"end":10290.873,"text":"公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性"},{"start":10305.632,"end":10322.531,"text":"現在目前齁其實龍虎幫過去齁大部分都是銷中國大陸但是這幾年來齁其實內銷的部...國內的使用的部分也增加了最主要目的就是以前都是整隻在吃現在很多切片的部分那銷往其他國家的還有嗎?美國的部分其實也在推"},{"start":10324.486,"end":10325.807,"text":"除了石斑魚之外其實包括虱目魚包括吳郭魚包括鱸魚包括"},{"start":10350.848,"end":10354.029,"text":"我希望這幾個魚種都是很好的養殖魚種也都很好的競爭力我希望都持續的推出去好不好"},{"start":10380.156,"end":10406.762,"text":"讓漁民有更好的收益我剛講這幾個都是很好的漁種大家認為是最好吃的養殖漁種所以我認為應該努力的推出去走向世界你看那個我們到比例持續都還得到三星高雄的虱目魚我認為就不斷的行銷不斷走出去才能達到最好的一個效果再來最後問一下過去基金其實也辦過由於秋刀魚都是石斑魚虱目魚都是高雄的五寶"},{"start":10407.682,"end":10436.781,"text":"那魷魚過去在2015、2016都有辦過魷魚節部長可不可以再來支持臺灣魷魚節固定在期間來舉辦我想我們一定支持齁特別是一些魷魚的部分還有鮪魚的部分它在高頻的疫區有沒有它年度的那個那個所謂的活動的部分會帶領一些明年六月一樣是魷魚的高峰期回來的時候啦能不能每年固定六月來期間辦魷魚節好不好部長可以嗎可以可以來全力支持好不好明年等六月一起來辦好不好"},{"start":10437.642,"end":10439.884,"text":"主席,我想請陳部長農業部陳部長"},{"start":10468.712,"end":10471.513,"text":"部長午安應該還沒有那麼久還可以啦部長我今天想要質詢你有關於這個農業金庫獨立董事派任的這個議題您認為因為農業金庫有重要的政策任務所以現在不適合變更選任制度但本席想要請教您農業金庫的股權結構現在是什麼樣子"},{"start":10498.88,"end":10522.817,"text":"農業部本身大概有將近37、38左右那民股的部分大概是50幾所謂民股就是農漁會體系將近六成都是農漁會的錢那農漁會的錢是誰的錢呢?就是農民跟漁民的錢所以農業部加農業信用保證基金就是飯工補股"},{"start":10523.638,"end":10523.958,"text":"我想齁"},{"start":10543.14,"end":10544.001,"text":"這就是本席要告訴你的。"},{"start":10566.315,"end":10579.11,"text":"你們只有40%的股權卻占了三分之二實習的董事董事長也是農業部指派而有六成股權的農漁會"},{"start":10581.172,"end":10585.497,"text":"農業部在農業金庫根本就是有權無責不可以不顧股東的權益為什麼不顧股東權益呢?你知道農業金庫現在的損益是如何嗎?"},{"start":10600.872,"end":10606.294,"text":"農業部沒有農業金庫基本上我所知道的部分大概今年是虧損54億是54億虧損累累但六成股權的農運會卻根本沒有辦法在農業金庫的董事會中出聲那最近的一個例子就是中央續產會向農業金庫借了10億買雞蛋"},{"start":10629.923,"end":10645.951,"text":"請問續償會有擔保嗎?我想由中央那個農信保來擔保,然後他現在...農信保只有保5億,所以是有5億沒有擔保的,你等於左手通右手。我跟委員報告齁,15億不是借的不還的,他現在已經剩下3年多...中央續償會沒有任何的擔保,僅靠農信保就成..."},{"start":10651.774,"end":10666.407,"text":"農業金庫搬了10億這個過程是誰同意的?是誰同意的?就是農業金庫的董事會同意的董事會裡面有三分之二實習的董事是你農業部指派的"},{"start":10667.108,"end":10671.312,"text":"所以你說的這個我知道但是過程有瑕疵啊他可以不用擔保就可以搬錢出去他今天是還了那如果他不還呢農業部要幫他還嗎所以你說的政策目標就是方便這些團體從農業金庫搬錢嗎"},{"start":10690.051,"end":10693.873,"text":"是不是?這些錢有六成都是全國農民的錢那誰可以把關?你可以負責嗎?假設他閉環你可以負責嗎?你身為農業部長你覺得這跟誰負責沒有關係?中央續產會買單的事情已經成為弊案了"},{"start":10717.586,"end":10723.671,"text":"你也是被告被傳訊了續產會也有人被交保如果這是一個正常的董事會發現一間公司還沒有成立就可以拿到農業部的單子他們不會覺得有問題嗎?現在農業金庫之所以可以沒有擔保把10億借給續產會問題就出在農業金庫的董事結構"},{"start":10744.386,"end":10755.054,"text":"根本沒有人可以在董事會裡面起到監督制衡的作用。部長,你覺得有人可以在董事會裡面幫我們的農民監督嗎?我在講,我在講,農業金庫裡面剛才你講的五席董事全部都是農業部提名。"},{"start":10767.663,"end":10768.104,"text":"農業金庫有它的相關農業金融法："},{"start":10793.366,"end":10797.87,"text":"所以我現在就建議你我不是只要罵你我也不是只要criticize你我現在是要告訴你說本席認為要讓農業金庫走向正軌應該要依公司法第192之1條的規定"},{"start":10817.107,"end":10844.045,"text":"讓持有已發行股份總數比例以上股份的股東可以用書面向公司提出讀懂候選人名單而不是用農業部一把抓這樣才能夠保障股東的權益落實公司治理你自己仔細看啊農業金庫它不是一般公開的公司它是依農業金融法它是一個特別法農業金庫存在的目的就是要支持農漁"},{"start":10846.366,"end":10860.534,"text":"這個農民榆木體系的金融穩定那部長你說他有獨特的政策性任務所以獨董需要由農業部推薦這根本就是錯誤的命題嘛那請問台肥公司是不是也有重要的政策任務"},{"start":10861.844,"end":10870.19,"text":"臺北市一個公開發行或是公開發行的不一樣這兩個不一樣臺北市港開發行不一樣這兩個是不一樣的你再去問一下經濟部部長、郭部長你去請教他一下嘛中小企營跟農業金庫也是一樣啊他飯工股又有將近30拍啊但是他也是疫情公開發行的"},{"start":10886.5,"end":10891.906,"text":"只要有一攤以上的股份的股東就有這個獨立董事的提名權所以你的說法是不正確的嘛所以我要求農業部就這個農業金庫獨立董事"},{"start":10901.457,"end":10909.826,"text":"可以如同台肥或中小企業一般回到公司法的規定,那你可以調整嗎?你願意調整嗎?你也可以修改嗎?你願意修改嗎?為了簽署"},{"start":10918.695,"end":10921.357,"text":"農業金庫具有政策上的金融支持的目的。我的問題就是你包括你之前想要提名的董事長。"},{"start":10944.718,"end":10950.241,"text":"農業金庫現在的運作到底有什麼樣的問題嗎?你還在講什麼政策目標?你在講什麼政策目標?我的意思就是說,如果你有站在農民的角色的話,你就可以把獨島的這個利..."},{"start":10967.791,"end":10968.211,"text":"部長請回座。"},{"start":10994.411,"end":11020.094,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11026.957,"end":11039.862,"text":"好 謝謝 下位諮詢請李玉玲委員謝謝主席 請陳部長 請農業部陳部長部長"},{"start":11049.983,"end":11050.284,"text":"農業金庫的運作"},{"start":11067.327,"end":11086.487,"text":"農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及"},{"start":11090.911,"end":11091.231,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":11120.487,"end":11144.741,"text":"部長你能看到到我們希望農業金庫運作的更好在這方面可不可以支持來做一個修正我跟委員報告我想我跟你都一樣我們都希望說農業金庫它有一個很正常的運作那現在它表面上它的虧損因為它本身是由地方農會轉存所以它的持股"},{"start":11146.021,"end":11165.886,"text":"所以您知道是地方轉存上來58%所以是不是要給他們有監督為了58%的這個資金放到農業金庫不會被你們乾坤打挪移放到哪裡去我們都不知道他們是應該有可以監督的權益吧他們的權益不能被抹殺掉"},{"start":11166.946,"end":11187.434,"text":"所以農業金庫它負擔的比較高的利率是給地方所以農業金庫它本身是是所謂的農會的信用部的上級的一個單位所以它負責一些相關的信用部的一個監督的部分所以他們一樣有上繳這些錢、存入這些錢58%所以部長不要忽略了他們的權利"},{"start":11188.715,"end":11208.706,"text":"他們只是要有效的有角色的來監督你農業金庫的運作有沒有公平公開透明而且不會把那錢亂用出去一個很重要的就是農業金庫本身的經營管理團隊的好壞那是一個重要的部長你願不願意來承諾說你要做一個修正對這些58%的農業會才是公平的我們現在並沒有考慮去修正58%沒有權利提讀懂的話那你認為公平嗎我想"},{"start":11218.471,"end":11240.266,"text":"讀懂的部分我農業部本身來推薦但是農業部在推薦的時候也會徵求各地方的意見所以相對的有沒有好處?我們也有所以在裡面有兩席就是農業會的部分所以我們也會所以就讓他們提嘛既然有兩席給他們就讓他們提嘛那不是說告訴你我要提這兩席就是這兩席不是這個態度啦所以部長我還有我的問題要問請你"},{"start":11243.508,"end":11244.229,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":11259.924,"end":11262.666,"text":"我們都需要要穩定所以要被監督要被監督才會正常的運作好不好?"},{"start":11278.735,"end":11297.326,"text":"我們農業部有38%,可以加起來變42%,所以你不要說會災難,你要有誠意的、有態度的、一個要有魄力的,讓我們的讀懂是有專業性跟代表性的,好不好?你回去演繹,再來跟本席報告好不好?"},{"start":11298.286,"end":11298.506,"text":"財政部長財政部長財政部長"},{"start":11318.442,"end":11321.384,"text":"大陸的這個商務部啊又取消了臺灣34項的農漁產品這關稅的減免這就是讓我們農漁民的權益一再的被犧牲那現在的2023年大陸在4月的時候又宣布了這個貿易的限制要進行貿易壁壘的調查就是我國對大陸有2450"},{"start":11343.956,"end":11344.096,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":11365.396,"end":11383.723,"text":"是不是?我跟委員報告齁就是我們縣市進口大陸本來830項因為稅責號列改變變成1077項那個1077項的一個限制最主要是去保障我們國內的農民的一個生產我知道要保障所以我希望部長你看到這個問題的時候你就要知道"},{"start":11386.124,"end":11394.627,"text":"我們限制了他2455項1077項就是我們農業產品我們是不是可以盤整一下跟大陸的相關產品比較沒有競爭的比較沒有爭端的可以降低我們的這個爭端的話這些產品我們釋出善意給他開放這樣子的話我們的農業民才不會一再的受到犧牲這是我們一貫的態度我們可以盤整一下嗎我們可以一貫的態度沒有競爭的兩岸的部分齁"},{"start":11412.073,"end":11412.173,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":11432.356,"end":11432.396,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":11451.02,"end":11467.051,"text":"貿易創意已經在這個五月份在第二階段談判當中我們也希望說他可以合足我們進這個香腸肉鬆或者鳳梨這些產品在現在你們談的結果怎麼樣?第一個我要先跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":11468.311,"end":11479.964,"text":"中國大陸暫停以後我們積極開發包括美國的市場那美國現在很多整個的一個大陸以外的外銷金從109年的48億我們現在就談美國部長"},{"start":11484.048,"end":11487.51,"text":"美國還沒有開放牛內臟跟牛脊髓、美牛高風險的產品這部位所以它對我們這個談判一直從5月談到現在還沒有結果雖然部長你沒有正面回答5月到現在11月了將近半年的時間我要提醒部長是不能因為這個樣子而去開放要照顧到國人的健康"},{"start":11511.32,"end":11511.54,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":11541.76,"end":11543.041,"text":"謝謝李昀造委精確掌握發言時間"},{"start":11571.626,"end":11574.294,"text":"來部長請回座謝謝下一位質詢請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":11592.785,"end":11611.071,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席、總經理、市長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生。有請我們陳部長、農糧署姚署長還有農田水利署蔡署長以及農業金融署的李署長李署長農業金融署"},{"start":11612.23,"end":11626.138,"text":"發言委員,補充你好,有水這麼有殘啦,灌給石溪市農館啦,欠水的孫龍山,如何補充農民,我們來看齁,來請教一下齁,後期啊,我們政客常常在講啦,做事做事,越做越實,為什麼?為什麼做事做事,越做越實?有時候他的殘齁,紅頭水妹,紅頭水妹你說得太好了,我們看齁,"},{"start":11640.256,"end":11645.382,"text":"因爲農民看天吃飯,現在農民看天吃飯整天要不要做啊?對不對?那基金的契約都要做什麼樣的應用?"},{"start":11652.502,"end":11674.339,"text":"經營的不確定性、經營的風險愈來愈高。 我覺得很好。我們訪台的方法,就了了啦。 阿沒好水勒,是了了啦。 山陀河,我們屏東已經損失兩億啦。但是,三年前呢,我們屏東的大,沒好水,也損失兩億。請問齁,對於沒辦法控制我們的天候,我們可以數毫米薄嘛,靠酒酒、靠保險。 阿要怎麼讓農民和我們的收入,你要怎麼做?"},{"start":11679.541,"end":11690.088,"text":"有兩個風險,一個風險就是說我們要想辦法用比較設施型的這些再別的方式。阿部長你都聽到我想要問你的,企業我們沒有改變,但是我們的農水路我們要去修建對不對?"},{"start":11690.088,"end":11691.969,"text":"是。我們的農業的主宰,我們要補助給它運購對不對?"},{"start":11691.969,"end":11693.07,"text":"是。所以說農業補助要做這兩項事情嘛。"},{"start":11701.516,"end":11702.317,"text":"農水到農業主宰給農民,會受到穩定增加嗎?"},{"start":11702.317,"end":11702.537,"text":"是不是?"},{"start":11702.537,"end":11704.059,"text":"是。好,來我們看一看。好,阿聖望你這個,是生有殘才有水,還是有水才有殘?"},{"start":11714.915,"end":11742.61,"text":"餐本來就在那裡,水一定要夠,餐才可以工作。不好意思啦,你有餐沒水喔,那餐就是什麼?就沒好東西了啦,對不對?所以說如果有什麼農民不想做,因為你沒灌白,我農地就沒辦法做農業事務嘛,我整個地方去做光電嘛,對不對?啊沒有啦,不然我就去拆地嘛,我每天怎樣?看電線、倒木頭、抽水嘛,是不是這樣?是。所以沒灌給用水就沒辦法經濟嘛,這是屬性嘛,經濟是不是要灌給用水?對。"},{"start":11744.099,"end":11744.299,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":11764.717,"end":11793.057,"text":"這個我們已經5.6萬,已經5.6萬,已經做到,這個已經做到啦。我好像沒在那五萬六千公頃內地的。我們逐年喔。 現在國土紀委發,國土紀委發有給我分說我的農地是有灌白沒灌白,給我分在農、農業、農利,有這樣分嗎?農業跟農利不是這樣分的齁?對啊,不是這樣分的嘛。我分作農業,叫我沒灌白,你要叫我怎麼做農?我們的優先齁,我們對,阿邦對農業的部分,我們的優先齁,去增加他的灌溉的渠道。所以說,"},{"start":11793.877,"end":11796.944,"text":"我農民我本就農業,為就農利,我是在家裡單人館也會做來,還是我要去申請?"},{"start":11800.963,"end":11824.315,"text":"對於農業部來說,農一、農二都是我們要去照顧的基金,對,都要去做灌牌。農民現在請你請灌牌,你當時做得好,要多久?報告委員,我們有分長期跟短期,如果是他其中比較更做比較完整的地方,我們是用整個系統性來做,如果個別,我們給他每年每戶50萬元的這個設施相關的補助。所以灌牌是農民的農管,保證你要聽到最多,一項。"},{"start":11825.996,"end":11829.439,"text":"關於農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":11833.476,"end":11855.737,"text":"我們說在土地上的土地、我們公共休息域完成前做農業用的水源是沒有在求土地借水,為什麼?我工廠、我老闆人我要找一個工廠的土地,但是沒得了,我工廠沒得開工,所以我繼續給他做農牧水源,你知不知道現在要求土地借水嗎?這種的不用求土地借水啦。"},{"start":11856.337,"end":11867.283,"text":"因為他做農業需要叫農婦嘛,農婦就沒有收嘛,所以說這第二條就是說政府還沒做到他公設的義務,人民我都運用第二,就要給他補充還是給他稅金的減免。所以農業設施、農田水利設施沒完畢,作業生、農民生產、收益,政府要有補充嗎?要沒有?好,謝謝。要有補充嗎?"},{"start":11880.616,"end":11904.228,"text":"以你剛才提到的條例來著,其實政府應該更加強去做這個農水路的設施。好,最後兩題啦,說用息息不是人看施捨啦,農業部要提供農地表的建設是這樣嗎?要嗎?所以請你回去研究啦,農業息息不足,造型、農產不足,沒得收益,你是不是在息息完整之前要補充?"},{"start":11905.336,"end":11910.079,"text":"拜託,保證回去研究一下可以嗎?這個可能需要一點時間,這個要全國的那個地區的盤點。"},{"start":11933.769,"end":11947.944,"text":"好,下一位質詢請林俊憲委員好,謝謝主席本席邀請我們農業部陳部長農業部陳部長"},{"start":11955.725,"end":11969.875,"text":"發言委員早部長今天來跟你探討一個問題這是我們台灣的藍輝我給你看這個照片這是今年二月今年二月二十三日在台南首辦的台灣國際藍展那個時候的賴清德總統他有去看不過二月他還要找一個大概就總統當選人的身份"},{"start":11985.216,"end":11997.901,"text":"農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":12000.887,"end":12019.934,"text":"那時候賴總統在今年二月的時候致詞臺灣南展第十會選,他說什麼呢?他說,他當年做市長就有一個新聞,希望臺灣的南非可以像河南的郁金香一樣,真正做臺灣一個產業,可以養活更多臺灣人,讓南花成為臺灣在國際上可以代表的一種飾品。"},{"start":12029.653,"end":12042.396,"text":"根據我們農業部統計,臺灣南瓜一年的產值有超過70億新台幣。所以我覺得農業部應該要重視南瓜的產業。這年有國際競爭,這年有臺灣特殊,而且它的產業季度現在已經很高了。但是其中南瓜最重要的在臺南的南瓜生機園區,"},{"start":12058.427,"end":12079.268,"text":"我發現他在衛街上根本在農業部裡面請問沒有人管理一點都得不到重視那裡農業部差不多大概在我們的農科園區管理管理的在下面大概你屬屏東這個地方是不是在屏東"},{"start":12080.903,"end":12104.221,"text":"農業科技管理中心下面的農科園區管理﹖應該是4級單位﹖不只喔﹖我看這個這不是幾百級嗎﹖4級﹖4級單位﹖4級吧﹖4級單位 坦白講根本完全在資源上啦﹖或者是說如果國家要動作是一個未來重要發展的東西 我覺得第一個你要先提升"},{"start":12105.743,"end":12128.425,"text":"蘭花園區的位階,它不會輸給任何一個有特色的產品。先這樣分析建議,我們應該像農街那樣,就是說蘭花生計園區,它可以合併在,我們有一個花卉所,對不對?我們把它合併,然後成為只屬於農業部的機關。"},{"start":12131.909,"end":12134.992,"text":"農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金"},{"start":12148.163,"end":12176.781,"text":"阿強委員在說的也是我們的一些想法就是說蘭花園區不能只是產業自生自滅的一個園區它需要一些技術的導入所以我記得在去年的時候好像也有委員有一個主決議附帶決議的部分就是希望我們去研議就是把蘭花園區跟我們試驗單位的相關的單位做整併那這個整併其實我們也先提了一個"},{"start":12177.662,"end":12180.473,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分：非營業部分：非營業部分："},{"start":12183.829,"end":12208.782,"text":"去跟那個行政院爭取經費這是經費的部分現在問題就是說組織面的部分其實如果說照委員所講的蘭花園區結合農事所的話會分鎖的話它不會增加市級單位對阿這樣的話我想我們會來努力啦因為這樣的方式齁才能夠讓我們的園區能夠轉型跟升級第一個也不會讓你的組織變大啦對喔對你喔"},{"start":12210.543,"end":12221.37,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分：非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":12240.749,"end":12255.32,"text":"來部長回座下一位執行委員請牛許廷委員謝謝主席部長有請請陳部長"},{"start":12264.056,"end":12280.175,"text":"委員好部長我要繼續追這個查開場的這個問題這2021年這個農委會以中南部產業產量大增推廣觀光旅遊等等理由編了12億元的經費打算把本來位在桃園市陽梅區的查開場的總廠南遷預計要遷到嘉義那當然嘛這對桃園來講那當然就很受傷嘛"},{"start":12284.119,"end":12284.219,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":12304.289,"end":12323.803,"text":"但是我要問的是後面的事情啊就是說總廠雖然保留但是他的業務只維持茶農指導的這一部分那麼有關於這個食農教育啊工廠啊技術研發等等喔這還是會難移喔那如果只留輔導但是其他的業務功能難移那請問他叫雙總廠還有意義嗎部長"},{"start":12326.24,"end":12350.387,"text":"我第一個我以農業部部長的身份跟委員報告他絕對不會說只有一個福島的部分在桃園的部分因為茶葉的改良第一個是品種育成那有不同的品種像南部會著重在高山茶那北部的話可能有些包種的部分可能所以品種不一樣"},{"start":12351.567,"end":12377.732,"text":"第二個就是食農教育的部分也絕對不是南部才需要食農教育。大家都要做嘛。所以這個部分也會都會去做。然後輔導的部分因為你的品種不一樣你的輔導系統。輔導其實是每個分廠都要做的事嘛。雙種廠的概念是我提出來的。所以我會去落實這個雙種廠本身不會把這個經費調到南部去造成他的經費缺乏。我想這個部分委員可以放心。"},{"start":12378.072,"end":12406.314,"text":"好 這本席還是要把這個話講清楚喔 這有兩個問題啦就是說如果沒有辦法落實所謂雙總廠的精神的話第一個問題是我北部長期以來在農改這個總廠服務的這些不管在技術研發也好或是說對嘛這個我想我們一定會注意你這樣子難移之後對於你的員額有沒有什麼影響你會因為南部要增加總廠本席不反對但我的意思是說你有沒有增加員額還是說你要把北部的人往南部調我想"},{"start":12407.074,"end":12407.254,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":12425.163,"end":12449.949,"text":"那這個部分也要請委員來支持這是另外一個案子我現在簡直第一個問題是怕人才流失的問題因為有很多基層的員工反映說如果要搬到南部他可能就換到其他農業業務去嘛我們會尊重他的意願我們會尊重他的意願你尊重他的意願他可能對茶葉等等他其實是很有專業的那你會這樣流失其實是農業部的損失嘛對不對也沒有辦法適材適所這是一個問題所以你今天南部如果要加研發業務你要新增一些人手這不反對"},{"start":12450.529,"end":12475.991,"text":"但你不要用調動的方式來處理不要去剝奪桃園本來的業務跟人力免得造成區域對立啦好不好一定是尊重現職員工的意願好第二個是區域平衡的問題啦就是說以前大家都其實長久以來從在探討經濟的時候就問說北部都以工商業為主南部以農業為主對不對那其實喔這個其實是一個刻板印象嘛其實應該都要平衡嘛每個地方該有什麼樣的產業都要有嘛"},{"start":12476.411,"end":12489.081,"text":"所以說如果資源你剛有提到資源不會移轉但如果資源真的不幸移轉放掉北部其實你實質上都會造成北部的滅農啦這個不應該是中央的政策態度嘛對不對絕對不會這樣絕對不會嘛對不對所以經濟作物的競爭力品質技術其實才應該是北部地區適合北部地區農業發展重點的項目啦"},{"start":12496.747,"end":12522.769,"text":"所以我是希望北部查改總廠第一個總廠一定要保留第二個相關的研發業務以及等等他應該也要保留啦不要只是留一個名字而已,可以嗎?不會這個詳細的緣額的調度報告等等還有你相關的一些安排是不是會後提供一個資料給本席做參考?可以好,謝謝好,謝謝牛許廷委員部長請坐因為我們委員黃孟楷已經到現場我們中午不休息"},{"start":12523.61,"end":12525.373,"text":"委員長開會時間到諮詢結束。下一位諮詢請洪孟凱委員。總農業部陳部長。"},{"start":12546.481,"end":12572.09,"text":"部長幾個部分快速再跟您做個確認第一就是本席當然有關注到這個綠烈溪的狀況那它是外來走它從南部現在好像說已經悄悄也有是往中部走所以說雲林線往中北部了是啊那現在的狀況到底我們什麼時候要成立這個專責小組能夠來去針對綠烈溪來打擊我想我們在原來的系統是由地方政府可是我覺得"},{"start":12573.07,"end":12573.471,"text":"所以這個禮拜內會同步啟動?"},{"start":12594.211,"end":12613.773,"text":"我們還要跟他們開會以後去確定他們時間,月底之前一定可以,這個月底。然後第二個部分就是相對的這些獵捕團隊本身,我們會用那個...因為現在我們有看到台南,他說那個獵捕的費用已經用完了,所以說還發公文說請獵人不要獵。"},{"start":12614.754,"end":12638.864,"text":"對,那有人就講說這會不會有空窗期?不會,我想我們會跟簽字政府講,他們如果帶電,我們一定會補助。是,所以中央會有預算,請各縣市政府在專案小組成立之後。沒有上限,這個沒有上限。第三個就是說,除了列補的工具,我們也要去協調。是,現在有看到有空氣槍。對,我們希望都,以前太保守了。是。所以我們現在用更積極的方式,最後就是說,"},{"start":12639.784,"end":12654.705,"text":"民眾齁我覺得民眾參與的時候列補到的那個獎金有沒有我們也會適度的把它提高用這樣的方式我們希望說短期之內等等但是我再確認一下民眾一般民眾可以去列補綠綠西嗎沒有那個是"},{"start":12655.586,"end":12655.806,"text":"對,然後有獎勵齁。"},{"start":12672.145,"end":12698.411,"text":"那我希望用那個小蛙半載欄以前在除的時候就是一公斤幹幾塊錢嘛,我會希望說適度的開放民眾去劣補的時候,所以這些辦法都會在月底前會出來?對,我們會把它處理掉。月底前會出來這些辦法?我希望說整個的辦法會完整的出來,然後再跟委員報告。好,那最後我請教,這樣子一個濾劣溪它沒有天敵嗎?另外我們能不能用生態的平衡去做來做一個控管?以我們了解好像沒什麼天敵,我不知道。"},{"start":12698.891,"end":12712.367,"text":"他確實,所以他是一個很強勢的外來種,是不是?所以而且他繁殖速度很快,所以說部長既然這樣子我們就一定要注意,因為縣市以前縣市單打獨鬥,但是他現在已經是慢慢擴散。"},{"start":12714.43,"end":12714.59,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":12731.445,"end":12752.516,"text":"我真的不了解說到底我們農業部或是教育部怎麼會一個利益良善的政策要讓學童有高鈣有鈣質可以吸收但是現在有人講說關鍵是全國統一的那個鮮奶的採購標案忽略各地方的自主性跟特殊性所以如果說各縣市自主招標"},{"start":12753.882,"end":12753.902,"text":"發言員："},{"start":12769.424,"end":12796.298,"text":"在現在目前的供農供應契約裡面有的學校本身他還在猶豫因為跟學生家長有的要訂保久乳、鮮乳的部分嘛那一直沒有辦法下訂那的確我覺得農業部必須承認的就是我們的產能的確不夠就像院長所說的就是我們當初的政策規劃的時候有些疏失那這些疏失我想我們現在的目標就是說讓學校盡量能夠喝得到"},{"start":12796.778,"end":12821.313,"text":"那後續的這些新的方法兩個前提一個就是不會再讓學校的老師有任何的負擔那現在他們的負擔我們非常感謝然後第二個部分也讓縣市政府有能夠自主參與的這些機制那這樣的機制的話就會讓讓現在的方式有所改變是部長我只因為主席站起來了我也很尊重主席這個嚴格控管時間"},{"start":12822.774,"end":12848.462,"text":"第一線我們所有的國小、國中的老師跟校長他們怎麼講?他真的就講是說不知道為什麼農業部、教育部沒有看到他們的辛苦,好像以為他們平常都沒有事做。而頒布這樣的一個政策真的是讓大家真的叫苦連天啊。所以該檢討改進的部分請一定要...是,謝謝。好,謝謝侯孟凱委員,還有部長先回座。"},{"start":12851.456,"end":12864.841,"text":"臨大夫臨大夫臨大夫不在賴斯堡賴斯堡賴斯堡不在羅賓才羅賓才羅賓才不在顏寬恆顏寬恆顏寬恆不在陳冠霖陳冠霖陳冠霖不在何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳不在吳立下一位執行請吳立華委員吳立華在"},{"start":12878.458,"end":12879.662,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":12888.716,"end":12911.616,"text":"來委員長部長好您辛苦了我在10月9號的時候我有問到就是關於高山農業未來的發展我們需要有一些些的水保鬆綁那只要用這種傳統農業的方式那當時部長謝謝您您有態度了表態支持未來在國土計劃法下"},{"start":12912.196,"end":12912.356,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":12928.729,"end":12955.33,"text":"本法第22條所稱山坡地的超限利用因為我們現在的農業動不動就會動到所謂的超限利用那下面有說但不包括依區域計劃法編定為農牧用地或依都市計劃法國家公園法及其他依法得為農漁牧之懇職經營或使用所以我要特別請教一下這個及其他依法得為"},{"start":12957.133,"end":12964.57,"text":"這個未來如果國土計畫法上路原住民圖管規則也通過那是不是可以來適用"},{"start":12965.982,"end":12984.927,"text":"我想跟委員做這樣的一個說明就是在新的國土計畫裡面包括國土保育區、農業發展區還有成家發展區我先講在農業發展區的有可能跟原民部落有關的是在農山的部分那這個部分如果說他後續我想農業部會更積極的去輔導"},{"start":12986.967,"end":13008.844,"text":"現在問題比較大的是在國保區裡面的部分那國保區裡面的部分如果他本來就是從事農業的時候我們會確保他可以繼續從事農業但是他如果要新增的時候可能因為國保區重新的定義就沒有辦法所以在農產的部分我們可以協助來看看用什麼方式能夠讓他更具合法性"},{"start":13009.324,"end":13016.849,"text":"那如果在原住民族圖管規則裡面針對國保的部分如果有做這樣的一些例外規定呢?"},{"start":13018.168,"end":13041.444,"text":"這個可能就不是農業部自己一個部會能夠處理的但是我會把這個議題我會把這個議題我會表達這樣的一個方式好 謝謝部長那另外就是我在10月17號的時候我也有問到其實在原基法下有一個原民會的原住民傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例但是有點慚愧都已經滿20年了"},{"start":13044.366,"end":13044.626,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":13065.163,"end":13090.179,"text":"因為在這個草案裡面第4條他有提到傳統生物知識的認定由本會、會商、中央農業主管機關為之所以認定可能原民會沒有這個能力必須要由農業部參與我也知道農業部其實之前叫保種中心在去年的8月叫做農業部升格之後的生物多樣性研究所我也看了一個預算"},{"start":13091.36,"end":13091.52,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":13113.761,"end":13141.662,"text":"我跟委員報告齁您剛才所提到生物多樣性研究所的研究其實它反而跟原民部落本身的這些植物的研究反而沒有那麼緊密的反而是我們試驗單位我們的改良廠包括以花蓮廠為中心的這個部分那這個部分我們有一個相關的這些原住民的所謂的早為原利跟原利再現的這個計畫這個計畫裡面我所知道大概是八千萬到一億一年喔"},{"start":13142.082,"end":13152.847,"text":"有這樣的一個經費,那我覺得這樣的一個經費我們可以把相關的傳統生物的多樣性的知識認定把它當作一個工作項目去處理就可以。那原民會那邊我也會積極的請他們催促他們快一點。希望農業部給予支持好不好?會,我們會。"},{"start":13158.73,"end":13183.443,"text":"主席不好意思我還有一個問題就是關於那個露營場的設置因為有很多很多的紛擾就是中央跟地方政府不同調部會跟部會之間不同調那很多我就舉一個簡單的例子這個露營相關設施外場地應符合現況使用所以這個外就很麻煩了我這邊有一個圖"},{"start":13185.604,"end":13185.724,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":13207.227,"end":13235.285,"text":"那最後就是我們林保署這邊我要特別謝謝因為我處理過的像山地門城谷一頭木那個山地村的舊組居地振化邊返還林保署很幫忙那在濁西那邊有個大分山屋即便上去要8到10天林務局也很幫忙齁那也都有成功的案例但是因為我們手上案子很多所以我還是需要林保署這個地方來跟我們做一個延商說明可以嗎部長"},{"start":13236.724,"end":13242.427,"text":"致間請同仁跟到您辦公室去討論好謝謝謝謝部長也謝謝主席謝謝吳立法委員部長回座下回質詢請張雅琳委員謝謝主席我們有請部長請農業部的陳部長"},{"start":13270.202,"end":13294.072,"text":"部長好,今天我還是想要來請教有關於我們這個生物多樣性的問題就是在112年我們中央政府總預算案的審核報告其實裡面有提到提到有關於我們這個生物多樣性的部分他是這樣講就是90年的時候合定的生物多樣性推動方案永續會並成立生物多樣性工作分組由農業部擔任幕僚機關協調統籌推動我國生物多樣性的工作"},{"start":13297.933,"end":13320.783,"text":"次金滾動修正我國推動生物多樣性之策略與計畫為截至113年3月31日止我國生物多樣性永續發展行動計畫於106年配合永續會組織架構以解除劣管所以現在是沒有機關來統籌管規劃及管考政府推動生物多樣性的執行情況"},{"start":13321.923,"end":13350.225,"text":"也就無從了解我國生物多樣性工作的全貌那他其實是有建議就是請行政院研磨妥促並督促相關機關檢討改善但我想因為我們其實一直有follow這個昆明蒙特羅全球生物多樣性的一些公約那這個部分我們目前到底是怎麼樣去管考是不是應該有一個相關的組織來做這件事情呢我跟委員報告雖然說永續會解散但是相關的工作我們持續在做那詳細的情形我是不是可以請林保祖書長來說明"},{"start":13351.257,"end":13361.483,"text":"好 我們簡單說明好嗎 謝謝好 發言委員 我們現在正在研擬就是所謂NBCEP國家生活端性策略那在年底應該就會草案出來我們還是會報從農業部這邊來報行政院"},{"start":13364.676,"end":13390.548,"text":"所以接下來是林業署來做整個管考歸各部會嗎?還是只是一個草?我們也有在報行政院希望說可以就原本的那個在原本的氣候小組裡頭可以納入生物多樣性因為現在在國際上氣候的變遷跟生物多樣性是一起的所以我們也建議行政院到時候能夠考量在氣候小組納入生物多樣性 對"},{"start":13391.701,"end":13402.76,"text":"好 了解那再來就是說我想部長也知道最近有一個非常轟轟烈烈的新聞就是台南的賽馬被遊蕩犬咬死了有非常多的馬匹死亡"},{"start":13404.605,"end":13432.563,"text":"我想問一個問題就是說因為我們其實講生物多樣性其實跟野生動物的保育是非常非常的有關有關就是非常的有關連可是呢我看到我們第一個我們現在在農業部今年的預算裡面化解野生動物危害農業及冰危物種與人衝突經費時預算是跟上年度相同可是我們的遊蕩犬的數量明明就是增加的為什麼經費是一樣的這點我是很納悶"},{"start":13435.461,"end":13440.325,"text":"委員 跟委員報告,我們現在處理那個流浪犬的預算,大概控制的預算大概會維持在4000萬左右,比去年增加大概一成。"},{"start":13459.301,"end":13465.246,"text":"農田水利事業基金及農業特別收入基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":13482.819,"end":13503.806,"text":"我們自己人對不到一萬喔這個落差非常大而且我們是持續的在增加而且這東西會造成不僅是最近的民權人車的衝突其中是非常多最近有新聞嘛就是有人為了閃遊蕩貓人就死了我想我們應該是要有更積極的策略來解決遊蕩貓我們是不是可以有一些相關的做法看國際上是怎麼去採用的去化解這些衝突的"},{"start":13504.472,"end":13524.302,"text":"我想分兩個層次,第一個層次就是在前段的時候施主的責任包括進食餵養的部分我們會去加強但是委員所關心的這些後續的收容所的部分我們會更因為現在很多縣市想要做但是找不到地所以我們現在是要蓋所有的收容所收容所有的犬貓嗎?我們的策略是這樣嗎?"},{"start":13525.916,"end":13540.01,"text":"我們要加強它的週轉率就是說收容以後一段時間已經要去增揚因為其實我對於你們的這個週轉率要怎麼去因為其實要怎麼去執行我其實蠻納悶的啦我想我們會後來討論這個資訊落實這個週轉率的彈性跟監督管理品質"},{"start":13543.473,"end":13544.353,"text":"您覺得這樣子的做法是﹖您的看法是什麼?"},{"start":13570.031,"end":13589.202,"text":"我覺得所有的動保相關的這些處理我們一定會跟警政單位來做一個協調那該處理我們還是會處理那我們也會跟動保團體做一些溝通啦因為這個蠻重要而不是無限上綱造成一些動保後面的一些議題更難處理我想我們會加強這部分"},{"start":13589.962,"end":13605.687,"text":"對,我想就是說,我希望其實部長可以針對這個部分,因為其實警察去執法,因為確保我們的動保處可以捕抓這個遊蕩犬,我覺得這還是蠻重要的一件事情,因為就像光這一個禮拜就已經有這麼多的生命死去了,這是非常嚴重的一件事情。"},{"start":13606.147,"end":13606.267,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":13629.211,"end":13651.8,"text":"我們會來努力就是說動保跟野保的相關的知識跟相關的這些這些觀念的部分應該在課綱裡面從小就應該有一些課綱的處理我們會跟教育部來來看看怎麼樣那大概什麼時候我們可以有一個我想要跟跨部會討論可能需要一點時間但是我們可以透過相關的我們農業部的相關的推廣系統去跟學校來合作這個部分"},{"start":13651.88,"end":13667.633,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分．非營業部分．非農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休"},{"start":13678.461,"end":13678.581,"text":"農業部陳部長"},{"start":13712.456,"end":13729.591,"text":"部長,上次我跟你強調過漁業署的一個預算,那事實上我上次是講這個捕撈漁業,那現在講養殖漁業,那養殖漁業事實上是值得我們政府應該要投入更多預算,然後來"},{"start":13730.452,"end":13758.797,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":13760.318,"end":13773.69,"text":"總預算基本上做了一些工作包括漁電共生包括養殖專區包括供水系統其中供水系統我想我們在役主本來有要做一個浮流水然後去供給這個養殖讓他們有"},{"start":13775.652,"end":13775.832,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":13797.202,"end":13797.682,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":13814.717,"end":13833.705,"text":"可以說明一下到底浮流水跟所謂的沼井取水有怎樣的不同?是不是可以說明一下?報告委員那個浮流水跟傳統講的這個地下水事實上是不一樣的因為它在這個含水層是不一樣的那麼基本上浮流水的取用是不會造成地層下陷以上簡單報告"},{"start":13834.485,"end":13861.226,"text":"福流水不會嘛吼所以我現在是擔保歡樂啦歡樂說哇地方現在有一點是在在謠言吼不斷的擴散然後大家在那邊擔心這個福流水供應系統會對地方造成怎樣的影響所以我會覺得說一個進步的一個政策在推動可能一些說明的還是必要所以我想說這部分是不是漁業署這邊還是可以多下箱然後來跟地方來多一點的"},{"start":13862.987,"end":13865.229,"text":"稍後我會要求與業主跟縣市政府一起合作,就是當他如果有誤解的時候會造成後面政策很難推動,特別是對浮流水的一些誤解。"},{"start":13881.263,"end":13900.689,"text":"那這個部分我想我們會透過相關的座談會的方式,或者相關的這些專區的方式,把特定的一些漁民的部分的認知或是農民的部分有些認知不一樣的地方我們會加強宣導。對,我覺得這部分說明一下啦,因為我們推動浮流水本來就是為了要減少用傑水嘛,那你用傑水就真的會一人下線。"},{"start":13904.15,"end":13916.934,"text":"我們用浮流水就是用新的水源來取代過去用井水照理這一個是一個進步的方向可是這樣的方向事實上鄉親有誤解所以我們盡快的人會來澄清那再下一個下一個就是說回到這個雜糧的部分那我們知道說現在玉米的價格跟烏鵝戰爭的時候的一個高價差不多到11塊現在玉米大概回到了"},{"start":13932.679,"end":13932.699,"text":"發言員："},{"start":13962.159,"end":13990.691,"text":"議員：議員："},{"start":13990.771,"end":14008.899,"text":"不過我跟委員報告,當初要用脆米代替這些玉米的部分有一部分是因為COVID-19的關係它的那個傳孕不穩定造成我們國內的玉米量不足的時候的一個權宜措施啦那現在如果說玉米的一個供應穩定的時候大概就不會再用脆米的部分"},{"start":14009.299,"end":14009.459,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":14032.421,"end":14032.561,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":14049.205,"end":14070.951,"text":"那所以我之前我有跟部長你提過我們現在有太多的河川工地河川工地在早期它有進展它大概都種植玉米因為它在二期的時候所以它在二期的時候那時候也都比較沒風態那它剛好那時候種植最大的好處就是由農民來管理這個河川工地然後讓河川工地它就不會發臭味臭味出來"},{"start":14073.112,"end":14073.332,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":14089.288,"end":14114.947,"text":"看要怎麼來勾勒,所以部長這部分你們後續的決定是怎樣?我跟委員報告,因為委員一直在關心這,就是河川工地的部分,那我們上個禮拜已經做政策的討論,現在大概有一個大的方向是確定的方向,就是河川工地你如果領有租約的時候,我們會有適度的獎勵,但是這個獎勵的水平不能跟一般的土地有沒有一般的農地的獎勵水平是一樣的。"},{"start":14115.367,"end":14127.199,"text":"因為當初在設計這個獎勵的時候有考慮到地租的問題啦。那相對的河川工地的地租是比較便宜的。所以我們會有一個比較好的一個設計。所以我們的獎勵不會完全比照一般的農地,但是我們會給予獎勵,但是我們會去設計他的金額。"},{"start":14138.871,"end":14162.677,"text":"好,所以我覺得這件事趕快宣佈出來,因為像我們八千多個現在等那個水準,如果我們就收好,讓他們可以水,明年就可以讓農民上線,今年趕快處理好租約,然後明年就讓他們上線,就開始去那邊耕作了,這個東西起來,那等於是未來就不用在同樣的工作一直在那邊重複,好不好?好,了解。好,最後就三二變,我覺得剛剛亞林委員問了一個很重點的,"},{"start":14166.598,"end":14188.008,"text":"對,我們沿海地方,在鄉下地方這種野狗的一個狀況,事實上部長你說找不到地方,我都覺得說我們現在有那麼多在做漁電共生,在做還是說沿海地方正在做光電,那為什麼你那個光電你不能跟這個野狗的收容所就把它放在一起呢?"},{"start":14189.554,"end":14216.253,"text":"我們在收容所上面的屋頂型的我們是鼓勵的對就是說他本身的那個狗舍或是什麼他的屋頂型我們還是鼓勵的對阿如果是那一種那開放型的呢開開放型的就是你沒有屋頂阿那我們基本上喔我感覺這個可以討論喔就是說因為大部分都找不到地你就把旁邊用網子圍起來阿也是一樣可以讓他放在那裡"},{"start":14217.854,"end":14245.501,"text":"對啦 這個我們來評估啦第二個就是說事實上你們應該要針對餵養流浪狗的人要開罰我一直希望說就是禁止在特定的區域禁止餵養應該有罰則啦沒有罰則就沒有用啦是啦是啦因為流浪狗很大的問題等於是有人餵養牠第二個如果是在養殖地區的話那個流浪狗自己會去抓魚那很厲害的"},{"start":14247.041,"end":14247.421,"text":"謝謝蔡議員部長請回座"},{"start":14280.472,"end":14308.641,"text":"聽到蔡議員的質詢如同長夜育明燈,育明可敬又可佩。來,下一位,馬文君,馬文君,馬文君不在。郭國文,郭國文,郭國文不在。岳元智,岳元智,岳元智不在。登記與發言委員除不在場之外,區域均已發言完畢,詢答結束。書面質詢以及位及答案部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答案並赴日本會。"},{"start":14309.775,"end":14325.213,"text":"各位同仁,針對預算案如有修正都議或相關提案,其餘11月25日下午10之前,從經濟委員會辦公室一例後續會診,欲時不再收案。本日討論事項所列預算案詢答結束,令定期繼續進行審查。現在,散會。"}]}},{"id":"157058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e870877e66630234a55117a57b012903f1c6c88fdf3dd9f718f69935296c30cbcfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"14:12:23 - 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那我想還是要請部長持續跟交易部跟華航這邊確定我們的團員來回的這個飛機的部分要讓他們更有餘裕然後這是全台灣人的期待好 那最後一個我想我時間有限我想要跟部長談一個部長您上任剛不久你一定不知道其實我們台灣經濟部財政部相關的國營事業都有相關的運動團隊的支持"},{"start":152.277,"end":179.135,"text":"很可惜在我們交通部底下有郵政、有台鐵、有港務、有淘機但長年以來我們都沒有自主運動團隊這件事情部長你過去來自台中你自己覺得有沒有機會在您任內我們去促成郵政、台鐵、港務、淘機的自主運動團隊讓國公營事業的系統在這件事情上一樣支持國內體育發展支持國內的選手支持更多全民運動的可能性"},{"start":179.835,"end":205.287,"text":"好,報告委員這個全民運動是相當重要的課題啦齁那我也是第一次聽到委員有在質詢這樣子的話題那我回去也了解一下郵政公司跟台鐵還有港務還有淘機為什麼他們過去都沒有針對這個相關的運動來做補助或者是自己來組球隊啦齁這個部分我先去了解那當然如果可以支持運動這絕對是好事是我也會來跟他們溝通看有沒有機會可以來支持我們相關的運動還有我們的運動員"},{"start":207.208,"end":226.113,"text":"那我確實我們在交通化委員會我們常年關注很多運動的題目可是當我們把運動的題目跟隨著運動部要升格體育署要升格成運動部之後我們更全面去檢視相關的問題所以我們發現交通部有這個可能性所以我當成今天就來這裡跟部長許願許這個願那部長剛剛已經正面的承諾說會回去跟相關機關討論那是不是有機會在一個月裡面給我們你們開完會議之後的一些討論那當然很難"},{"start":236.115,"end":259.511,"text":"立刻告訴我就立刻要成立啦你們還是有很多的資源盤點要去研議或相關的法規範或是目前到底為什麼沒有這個機制是不是有機會在一個月內給我們相關的報告我一個月之內去了解一下為什麼這些公司太好了謝謝部長我相信如果再把交通部的支持放進來台灣的所有運動選手都會覺得這是一件好事好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1253,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（14時12分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請陳部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。部長午安，辛苦了！"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：今天早上一路下來，已經有非常多委員跟您請教過關於棒球的事情，那我就是再跟您確定一個細節。我知道你們有討論到今天晚上會公布有沒有包機相關方案，我們直接看好了，這張PTT上顯示，今天凌晨一點半就有熱心網友詢問，球團28人名單加上教練團，如果要讓他們都坐商務艙，是38人，可是這還不含可能還有的後勤支援，不管是心理師、營養師、體能教練等等。熱心的網友還幫忙盤點飛機的型號，包括如果是什麼機型只能坐多少個位子、長榮只能包B77W等等。當然，在臺灣現行法規範當中只有奧、亞運可以坐商務艙，對嘛！部長應該知道。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是針對這次，我覺得有這麼多榮耀在這群球員身上、有這麼多來自大家的關心，我也知道他們明天已經要出發了，飛機應該已經是訂好了，但有沒有可能透過部長這邊的協助，讓他們有更有餘裕、更寬敞的空間搭飛機到日本去？然後，以目前你所掌握到的資訊，他們訂飛機的進度是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這是國家的喜事啦！所以很多民眾都相當關注。我們現在一方面在解決民眾要去東京卻訂不到機位的問題……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，這點謝謝部長，我也很想去。"],["陳部長世凱：國籍航空中，大家已經在努力，我聽說長榮航空也提出包機申請、正在跟日本申請。另外，針對球員部分，我相信華航一定會提供很充足的協助啦！在這部分，雖然主要會由教育部協調這件事情，但是我們交通部也會協調華航，儘量提供充足的協助給我們的球員，讓他們可以透過更有餘裕的方式去日本。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我想還是要請部長持續跟教育部及華航確定我們的團員來回飛機這部分，要讓他們更有餘裕，這是全臺灣人的期待。","最後一點，因為我時間有限，我想跟部長談一個問題。部長，您剛上任不久，一定不知道，其實臺灣經濟部、財政部與相關國營事業都給予相關運動團隊支持。很可惜，交通部底下有郵政、有臺鐵、有港務、有桃機，但長年以來都沒有自組運動團隊這件事情。部長，你來自臺中，那你自己覺得有沒有機會在您任內促成郵政、臺鐵、港務、桃機的自組運動團隊，讓國公營事業的系統在這件事情上一樣有支持國內的體育發展、支持國內選手、支持更多全民運動的可能性？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，全民運動是相當重要的課題，我也是第一次聽到委員質詢這樣的話題，我回去了解一下郵政公司、臺鐵、港務、桃機為什麼過去都沒有針對相關的運動作補助或自己組球隊，這部分我先去了解。當然，如果可以支持運動，這絕對是好事，我也會跟他們溝通，看看有沒有機會支持運動還有運動員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。確實，我們在教育委員會長年關注很多運動相關題目，對於這些運動的題目，我們也隨著體育部要升格成運動部，更全面檢視相關問題，發現交通部有這個可能性，所以我今天就專程來這裡向部長許這個願。部長剛剛已經正面承諾回去後會跟相關機關討論，那是不是有機會在1個月裡面給我們開完會議之後的討論內容？當然很難立刻告訴我立刻成立啦！你們還是有很多資源要盤點，也要研議相關法規範，或是目前到底為什麼沒有這個機制，但是不是有機會在1個月內給我們相關報告？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我在1個月之內去了解一下，為什麼這些公司沒有支持體育。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了！謝謝部長。我相信如果再把交通部的支持放進來，臺灣所有運動選手都會覺得這是一件好事，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是、好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來有請葉元之委員、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決議：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員鄭正鈐、陳冠廷所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復的的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面資料答復。四、討論事項第一案，也就是各委員所提的道交條例修正版本，等待行政院交通部的版本送進來之後另擇期繼續審查。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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二、黃健"},{"start":166.916,"end":183.856,"text":"委員是不是我們請局長先跟您回應好不好?也跟委員報告就是說整個的因為委員有提到就是說整個包括就是說從訓練到考照到這個駕照未來的管理其實這個部分的話當然部裡面就是說跟局其實我們有相關的方案那"},{"start":184.536,"end":188.198,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":206.929,"end":208.149,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪"},{"start":231.656,"end":249.212,"text":"再來就是大客車的考照這樣的一個制度上有很明顯的問題也就是包含前面提到的我們的實習教學當中常常是沒有辦法落實我們的道路駕駛的訓練時數而且更何況我們的時數非常的低像這次的那個懈性女駕駛"},{"start":250.293,"end":251.254,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":271.533,"end":274.755,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ​​​二),委員黃健豪等17人、 ＼委員黃健豪等17人、 ＼委員黃健豪等17人、 ＼委員黃健豪等17人、 ＼委員黃健豪等17人、 ＼委員黃健豪等17人、 ＼委員黃健豪等17人、 ＼"},{"start":300.114,"end":317.959,"text":"在比較這個制度比較吊詭的地方就是我我取得自用大客車的駕照三個月在等待期的時候也沒有相對應的值錢訓練他就直接可以取得職業大客車的駕照這是讓我們擔憂了所以部長不知道你有沒有瞭解到國外的職業考照的加訓制度嗎"},{"start":318.539,"end":343.728,"text":"是,報告委員其實這個部分的議題有蠻多的觀點跟看法那目前我們交通部正在整合您剛才一開始所破題的其實沒有錯就是說整個考照的制度是需要改革那目前公路局這邊也已經召集了各個相關的人包含一些學者也好或者是路權團體等等大家一起來討論就是到底還缺了哪些需要加進去的部分我們趕快把它加進去"},{"start":343.888,"end":372.823,"text":"你們都已經有出國去考察下一頁可不可以看一下國外的你看美國他們的是學科加數科總共305小時我們只有81小時這就很大的落差你把不定時車站放在路面上當中去跑的時候有時候傷害的是人命我覺得不應該用人命來買我們政府的法規歐盟也是280小時而且他們有回訊那這個回訊呢35小時5年平均一年7小時"},{"start":373.843,"end":397.759,"text":"我們也有啊可是問題是六小時三年的話一年才兩小時而且坐在那邊聽課跟他的實務經驗到底有沒有被累計我覺得有點擔憂下一件最後就希望江部這邊是不是可以盡速改革我們的大顆車的駕照的考訓制度這上次也提過而且最好事實上是學習跟值錢訓練都要並進還要改善題目"},{"start":398.719,"end":401.223,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ"},{"start":416.986,"end":417.006,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1223,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（14時4分）有請部長。"],["主席：好，請陳部長。"],["林委員月琴：部長午安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：我相信今天很多人問你的是牌照的問題，不過我想問的是昨天臺北市的公車事故，部長應該有掌握狀況吧？"],["陳部長世凱：有，了解狀況。"],["林委員月琴：可是我要提醒部長的是，國內職業駕駛考訓制度的改革真的不能再等了！我上次質詢的時候就提醒過公車客運業的問題，尤其是公路局8年連續在國外考察了6次公車客運的營運管理，但這樣的考察似乎並沒有回應到台灣政策的改變。我認為源頭端還是在考訓制度，真的要趕快動起來，不要再怠惰！從巨業一直走到現在，又發生這樣的事情。公車客運業事故頻傳，過去的統計數據也顯示公車客運涉入的交通事故與人數不減反增，而且事實上人為因素是關鍵。國內職業大客車的駕訓本來就問題很多，上次我也再度講過。","首先我們來看問題一，國內針對這些駕駛的駕訓教育受限於收費規定。因為有些收費上限規定的關係，在成本考量之上，很少駕訓班真的落實法規要求，也就是達到場地訓練跟道路駕訓的訓練時數，這點我上次也提過。雖然有管理上、辦法上要求的這些時數，可是實際上，這是我從業界取得的資料，依照業界慣例上，在做的時候根本就跟你想像的不太一樣，甚至有共車這樣的狀態。照理來講，國外是1比1，你們的法規也明訂要1比1，可是真實情況是這樣做嗎？也不是這樣做，事實上，師生比有時候是1比2-，1個老師要帶著2個學員，那怎麼學習呢？很多時候都是成本考量。而且目前法規明定，訓練時數未達三分之一不可以結業，可是我上次質詢過了，交通部到目前還沒有回復我，你們對於這個問題到底如何解決。不知道部長什麼時候可以給我答復？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我請局長先給您回應好不好？"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["陳局長文瑞：我也跟委員報告，委員提到整個機制，也就是從訓練、考照到未來的駕照管理，這部分的話，部內跟本局其實有相關方案，我下週也會找一些相關學者、專家、委員，也包括其他人士給我們一些建議啦！因為我們其實想要把我們的方案向大家報告一下，如果大家覺得後續還有一些要再……"],["林委員月琴：下週是不是可以給我？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["林委員月琴：部長、局長，真的不能再等了！"],["陳局長文瑞：了解、了解。"],["林委員月琴：一等……你看，上禮拜才質詢完，昨天又發生人命，就在立法院附近欸！看了真的是滿心痛的。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，有一些是涉及修法，要修法的部分……"],["林委員月琴：那就提出修法啊！"],["陳局長文瑞：對，譬如說汽車駕駛人訓練機構管理辦法有一些部分是要修正的。至於有一些措施如果不用修法、是行政措施可以直接執行，我們就一定優先執行。"],["林委員月琴：好。","再來就是在大客車考照這樣的制度上有很明顯的問題，包含前面提到的實際教學當中常常沒有辦法落實道路駕駛的訓練時數，更何況要求時數非常低。像這次的謝姓女駕駛就是拿到小客車駕照，然後又考大客車駕照，中間都沒有經過很多訓練，拿到小客車駕照之後就取得大客車駕照，又只透過81小時的教育訓練，當然時數就會不足。而且在實務上，如果看到課程內容的話，你不覺得會讓人家很擔心嗎？整個場地內比較偏向術科的訓練都沒有跟外界互動，道路上的環境就很單純嘛！像小客車現在有路考，可是大客車沒有，怎麼跟外界互動、了解有很多視野死角的問題？課程中基本上沒有這樣的內容。甚至這個制度比較弔詭的地方就是，在取得自用大客車駕照3個月後的等待期，也沒有相對應的職前訓練，就可以直接取得職業大客車的駕照，這是讓我們擔憂的啦！部長，不知道你有沒有了解到國外職業考照的駕訓制度嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分議題有滿多觀點跟看法，目前交通部正在整合。您剛剛一開始所破題的其實沒有錯，就是整個考照制度需要改革，目前公路局這邊也已經召集各相關人，包含學者也好、或是路權團體等等，大家一起來討論到底還缺了哪些需要加進去的部分，我們趕快把它加進去。"],["林委員月琴：好。","既然你們都已經出國考察，可不可以看一下國外的做法？你看美國，他們的制度是學科加術科總共305小時，我們只有81小時欸！這裡就有很大的落差。把不定時炸彈放在路上跑，有時候傷害的是人命，我覺得不應該用人命來買政府的法規。歐盟也有280小時，而且他們有回訓機制，這個回訓規定是35小時、5年，平均一年7小時。我們也有啊！問題是6小時、3年的話，一年才2小時，而且是坐在那邊聽課，他的實務經驗到底有沒有被累積？我覺得有點擔憂。","最後就是希望交通部這邊儘速改革大客車駕照的考訓制度，這點我在上次也提過，而且事實上最好是學習跟職前訓練都要並進，還有改善、研擬合理的題目，因為不能叫馬兒不吃草，如果不是合理、可行的收費機制，大概就會造成困難，最後事實上就不會有良好的教練協助現場、做好駕訓課程。在國外，像日本針對類似謝女這種直接造成傷害的案件，要回溯他當年在哪一個駕訓班上課，並去檢討這個駕訓班的上課制度或所提供的駕駛訓練到底符不符合規定，類似作法是不是可以從這一會期開始？以上，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來有請陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","馬文君委員、馬文君、馬文君委員不在。","接下來請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","黃國昌委員、黃國昌、黃國昌委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","接下來有請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157056","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157056","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e8711e04d65ec4f5524117a57b012903f1c1ead249cd0ea4772e339ddae18a2dfb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"13:35:44 - 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部長好那相信大家都很關心早上我看這個包含這一個我們企常委員他有在問就是說現在台灣都已經晉級了然後打就是預定在禮拜四下禮拜四就要到這個東京區段去打球了那這個包含我自己在內我在昨天發現這個5比1可以晉級之後就開始上網去訂機票我也是訂不到啦"},{"start":37.085,"end":56.924,"text":"這不管不是只有我我相信很多球迷是訂不到那這個聽說這個早上已經有協調我們國航的這一個這個這個飛機航空公司也要來做這一個加班那不曉得現在有沒有比較對就是加班嘛或是說換比較大型的飛機不曉得有沒有現在有沒有最新的訊息"},{"start":58.91,"end":74.443,"text":"這個部分我還沒有掌握最新訊因為早上到現在都還在備詢這個部分我相信會有好消息啦因為民航局他們今天早上開始就一直在努力這件事昨天晚上就有人在反映他們今天早上就在努力這件事所以最快答案的時候會知道這個消息"},{"start":75.403,"end":91.891,"text":"呃我們看今天今天我們晚一點看會不會有消息有的話呃我們會希望航空公司多宣導讓民眾知道那也會讓委員這邊也先知道好那現在就是說這個偽造車牌部分齁那這一個交通部有打算這個提高的這一個法則齁"},{"start":93.112,"end":97.117,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 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那速發部速發部要怎麼樣去做就是說像這個衛福部跟這個速發部就合作電子菸的相關的關鍵字那就可以這個做下架那現在這個速發部要怎麼去做處理勒"},{"start":179.076,"end":194.619,"text":"跟委員報告一下那其實我們也知道這個議題很相當嚴重所以其實我們有跟這個交通部去做合作那他們有提供關鍵的部分我們進行這個所謂的網路的這個巡查在網路平台的部分事實上是沒有那現在比較嚴重的就是在網路平台上面也說沒有"},{"start":195.734,"end":216.512,"text":"是對網路平臺加我們熟悉的像一些蝦皮等等沒有但是出問題的是在社群平臺確實是還有一些比如說我在Meta上面啊在Google上面啊對啊那這個你們管不到嗎那這部分我們也有積極的跟這個業者進行這個協作請他們積極下架那確實現在不是啊我看你們那個下架的個案很少啊"},{"start":217.272,"end":245.647,"text":"確實下降速度比較所以我們今天跟明天我其實我們有找業者跟機關來去這個為什麼是今天跟明天這個不知道你們講了大概兩三個月有了我們其實有但是就是發現到速度不夠所以我們好那你們打算怎麼做呢打算怎麼去要求業者呢我們業者的部分就是要求他們要競速下降那如果真的是涉及廣告部分他是有車牌部分那我們就依打詐專訪進行做一個採取的部分因為他們現在有設這個法律代理人嘛對不對所以我們都找到他法律代理人嘛"},{"start":246.207,"end":268.84,"text":"對阿所以基本上就是說你在什麼Google或是說在臉書上面你要打這個關鍵字其實如果有的話你們是可以找他們的阿就是但他們現在有負以什麼樣的這個法律上面的責任嗎他們的法律代表已經送過來我們進行審查那如果確實這是涉及廣告不實的部分或者是詐騙我們就是依達照上去做一個裁處不是阿那他這個是算是涉及到什麼"},{"start":269.935,"end":294.598,"text":"廣告不實?因為他是偽造車牌還是什麼廣告不實?如果他今天是有廣告的部分又涉及詐騙我們就依打詐裝版但是如果今天涉及到的是違反這個所謂的交通部的部分交通部這個部分他會依法的部署你進入一個裁罰的部分對 因為部長因為這個情況非常嚴重啦我是希望說齁這個我們交通部跟速發部齁要來合作要提供一些訊息給速發部因為現在包含這個電子驗也是一樣啊"},{"start":295.138,"end":311.935,"text":"那這個現在就是偽造車牌偽造車牌很多都是在網路上都可以買到的那你剛才講就是說除了在平台上面還有一些LINE的群組上面那你有沒有跟LINE那邊有做聯繫嗎有 其實LINE跟GoogleMeta其實我們都有跟交通部這邊進行一個所謂的聯繫傳播都有"},{"start":312.515,"end":329.982,"text":"對啊 我是希望說這個因為如果修法是到明年上半年你才有辦法就是說修法加重加嚴但是現在如果說你在修法之前有沒有這個權宜措施可以把這個偽造車牌這個東西數量再把它下降"},{"start":330.362,"end":354.28,"text":"副部長就最後再回答一下。是,報告委員您所在意的其實是執行面的部分那執行面的部分我們其實有一些做法但或許不夠精進那您在關心的應該是我們希望要更精進包含跟數位部之間的合作那我們明天會開會討論一下看讓他下架的速度看如何加快好,那你們這個精進的措施跟作為大概多久可以出來可以給本席一個報告兩週兩週的時間跟委員報告好,謝謝,謝謝副部長,謝謝主席"},{"start":360.486,"end":360.689,"text":"黃健豪等17人、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1179,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（13時35分）謝謝主席。請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。相信大家都很關心，早上我看包含其昌委員也有在問，就是現在臺灣隊已經晉級了，預定在下禮拜四就要到東京巨蛋去打球，包含我自己在內，我在昨天發現5比1可以晉級之後就開始上網訂機票，我也是訂不到，不是只有我，我相信很多球迷也是訂不到，聽說早上已經有協調國航的航空公司要來做加班。"],["陳部長世凱：對，希望可以加班或換大飛機。"],["李委員坤城：對，就是加班或換比較大型的飛機，不曉得現在有沒有最新的訊息？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我還沒有掌握最新訊息，因為早上到現在都還在這邊備詢，這個部分我相信會有好消息，因為民航局他們今天早上開始就一直在努力這件事，昨天晚上就有人在反映，他們今天早上就在努力這件事，應該會有好消息。"],["李委員坤城：所以最快大概哪時候會知道這個消息？"],["陳部長世凱：我們今天晚一點看會不會有消息，有的話我們會希望航空公司多宣導讓民眾知道，也會讓委員這邊也先知道。"],["李委員坤城：好。現在偽造車牌的部分，交通部有打算提高罰則，甚至車輛可以沒入，我想請問一下，因為這個涉及修法，在修法之前有沒有什麼讓這個政策可以先來實施、先來做，把偽造車牌的數量再降低？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前源頭管理的部分持續在做，其實我們從前一陣子就一直在做，另外跨部會的稽查、跨單位的稽查其實也都一直在執行，內政部警政署相當努力也相當幫忙，數發部也相當幫忙，財政部也是在源頭管理的部分做把關。"],["李委員坤城：部長你說相當幫忙，可是我看他們查出來的數字好像有點落差，數發部有在現場嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：數發部……"],["李委員坤城：教育部跟衛福部也是一樣，我要問電子煙，非常氾濫，你在網路上打「電子煙」，要買到處都買得到，他們數發部就是說已經很努力在做了，但現在也是一樣啊！現在你只要在網路上面打「車牌」，就像我剛剛在Google打「車牌」，還是都有啊，都還是買得到偽造的車牌啊！數發部要怎麼樣去做？像衛福部跟數發部就有合作電子煙相關的關鍵字，就可以做下架，現在數發部要怎麼去做處理呢？"],["黃簡任技正美靜：跟委員報告，我們也知道這個議題相當嚴重，所以其實我們有跟交通部合作，他們有提供關鍵的部分讓我們進行所謂的網路巡查，在網路平台的部分事實上是沒有，現在比較嚴重的就是……"],["李委員坤城：網路平台上面也說沒有？"],["黃簡任技正美靜：對，網路平台，我們熟悉的一些像蝦皮等等的沒有，但是出問題的是在社群平台確實是還有一些，就是在Meta上面……"],["李委員坤城：比如我在Meta上面、在Google上面，這個你們管不到嗎？"],["黃簡任技正美靜：是的，在Meta上面，這部分我們也有積極的跟業者進行協作，請他們積極下架，確實現在……"],["李委員坤城：我看你們那個下架的個案很少啊！"],["黃簡任技正美靜：確實下降速度比較慢，所以我們今天跟明天其實有找業者跟機關來加強……"],["李委員坤城：這個為什麼是今天跟明天？這個大概講了兩、三個月了耶！"],["黃簡任技正美靜：我們其實有，但是就是發現到速度不夠，所以我們現在……"],["李委員坤城：好，那你們打算怎麼做呢？打算怎麼去要求業者？"],["黃簡任技正美靜：業者的部分我們就是要求他們要儘速下架，如果真的是涉及廣告有車牌，我們就依打詐專法逕行做裁處。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，因為他們現在有設法律代理人嘛，對不對？所以我們都找得到他的法律代理人嘛！"],["黃簡任技正美靜：是的，沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以基本上在Google或臉書上打關鍵字，如果有的話，你們是可以找他們的啊！他們現在有被賦予什麼法律上的責任嗎？"],["黃簡任技正美靜：他們的法律代表已經送過來，由我們進行審查，如果確實涉及廣告不實或詐騙，我們就是依打詐專法去做裁處。"],["李委員坤城：那這種情況算涉及到什麼？廣告不實？但他是偽造車牌啊！哪裡是什麼廣告不實？"],["黃簡任技正美靜：如果涉及廣告、也涉及詐騙，我們就依打詐專法處理；但如果涉及到的是違反交通部法令，交通部會依法律規定進行裁罰。"],["李委員坤城：部長，因為這個情況非常嚴重啦！我是希望交通部跟數發部要合作、提供一些訊息給數發部，包含電子煙也一樣啊！那現在就是偽造車牌，偽造車牌有很多都是在網路上可以買到的。","你剛才講的是除了在平台上，還有一些在LINE群組上，那你們跟LINE那邊有作聯繫嗎？"],["黃簡任技正美靜：有，其實針對LINE跟Google、Meta，我們都有跟交通部建立聯繫窗口，都有！"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我是希望……如果要修法，也是到明年上半年才有辦法靠修法加重、加嚴，那麼現在、在修法之前有沒有權宜措施，可以再讓偽造車牌這種案件的數量下降？部長，你最後再回答一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是。報告委員，您所在意的其實是執行面，在執行面的部分，我們其實有一些作法，但或許不夠精進。您在關心的應該是希望我們要更精進，包含跟數位部之間的合作，那我們明天會開會討論一下，看看如何加快下架的速度。"],["李委員坤城：好，那你們的精進措施和作為大概多久可以出來、可以給本席報告？"],["陳部長世凱：兩週，兩週時間向委員報告。"],["李委員坤城：兩週？好，OK。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李委員。","休息之前作以下宣告：待會休息20分鐘，休息完畢之後還有委員要進行詢答。今天詢答完畢之後，針對道交條例相關修法，經過剛剛跟交通部長溝通，他們的版本會儘快送進來。畢竟裡面事涉很多財產權的問題，可能你們要思考一下，確實有些不同程度的情況，有些屬於最惡劣的、有些屬於中間的，有些是傻傻的，是不是都要用同一招？我們就等你們的版本送進來再一併審議。發展觀光條例在待會詢答完畢之後逐條審議。","現在休息20分鐘。","休息（13時42分）","繼續開會（14時3分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來有請鄭正鈐委員發言。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","接下來有請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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Stay的話可以來研商一下看誰協助他我希望這個部分我們還是去細部的討論一下不要傷害到他們的發展好不好好,那謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1158,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時29分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長您好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：今天發展觀光條例我有提修法版本，最主要是我居住偏鄉，所以我關心偏鄉的觀光發展，長期以來我的觀察其實對臺灣來講，山地、丘陵占了國土三分之二以上，也就是如果我們要發展觀光大概就是在山地丘陵區域，所以觀光發展條例其實對我們來講很重要，這其中我覺得我們目前遇到的困境就是發展觀光要有吃、有住、有交通，但是山地都居於劣勢。前幾年要特別感謝交通部公路局有修訂汽車運輸業管理規則，也就是開放小客車、自用車投入偏鄉的運輸，我也有參與，為什麼這個很重要？因為我們到山上去幾乎都是禁止甲、乙類，那些路甲類、乙類都不行，那有什麼好觀光發展？所以對我們來講，自用車、小客車如果也能夠有合法的牌，我們就有生意可以做，我們也可以帶我們的客人進去觀光，所以我覺得這個部分很好，但是有一個部分就是住，困難重重！因為我們受限於水保法，光是要變更地目就很難，要在山上蓋大飯店除非是以前，現在是幾乎不可能，所以我們也很高興觀光署在推動民宿，我們也都努力的在協助推動，我們剛剛才推了露營場的合法化，那也可以，但是公告上路兩年以來合法的沒有幾家，很難耶！"],["陳部長世凱：對，很少。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：既有的要合法沒辦法，反而是新設的可能還有點辦法，所以我覺得在這個部分如果發展觀光條例再有所限制的話，那真的是扼殺了我們偏鄉的觀光發展。所以我想說的就是我們目前會碰到的，我就不講露營場，裡面會提到的就是民宿，如果我們現在要對這些沒有或尚未登記的，也就是非法的民宿，去處理它的罰則的時候，當然我同意你把它分類，觀光旅館或者是一般的旅館以及民宿，我同意觀光旅館罰則要把它拉高一點，所以到200萬我覺得OK。但是我比較有意見的是即便我們用行政罰法的行政裁量權去控制它的樓地板跟天花板，我覺得也蠻危險的，其實對很多民宿業者來講這個是很沉重的負擔，可能會扼殺它願意被輔導合法化，所以這個部分我自己的版本是希望還是要分等級，但是如果不要分等級，我們用法律的體例給它寫幾到幾萬我也沒意見，但是我希望那個樓地板要低，讓行政裁量不至於造成扼殺他們的發展。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，這個確實是需要分等級沒有錯，對民宿如果是用200萬確實太高。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我的版本要分等級，好不好？對這種民宿我真的希望樓地板不要太高，因為我們都在輔導它，它都還不願意咧，結果我們還要把罰則提高，那它就更不願意了。","另外一種我關心的，有的人說它是日租套房，其實我們是因應永久屋，也就是莫拉克風災之後政府輔導永久屋可以做接待家庭，他自己也住在裡面，但是因為觀光客來沒地方住，所以我們會把它叫做接待家庭，但是它有點類似現在所稱的日租套房，如果這個地方也去處理它，那我看都完蛋了！其實大家來偏鄉山上觀光沒有地方住，他們願意搭配政府的輔導、願意成為接待家庭、願意成為民宿，那個真的都已經謝天謝地了啦，更何況真的很難，他要碰到好多，消防法也不容易，光是它的安全結構、它的水保法、它的變更地目，很難，不是不願意，真的要碰到的法規太多、太難了！所以請教部長您的看法。"],["陳部長世凱：他如果是日租套房的部分，可能短天期比較難注意，但他如果願意做long stay的話，我們可以來研商一下看能不能協助他，住的天數能多一些。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望這個部分我們還是去細部討論一下，不要傷他們的發展，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是，好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員。","李坤城委員你要……"],["李委員坤城：現在可以問嗎？"],["主席：好，時間控制一下，好不好？請李坤城委員發言，之後我們再休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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對不對就行為人好所以這就是我們這一次修法本席提案的兩個重點透過加入末路銷毀來阻卻犯罪集團用假車牌用髒車繼續犯案但是我們要思考一下如果它是豪車"},{"start":234.176,"end":257.53,"text":"他沒有犯案那他使用假車牌要怎麼去處罰你們要去斟酌以及最後我主張我們在使用假車牌之間的交通違規向行為人追查做得到嗎這個沒有錯一定是這麼做沒有錯好那所以今天的本行就是這個提案然後也希望部長跟我們的司長還有我們警政署還有法務部未來"},{"start":259.451,"end":269.06,"text":"對於日新月異的犯罪手法我們要及時的透過相關的行政監禮手段來與嚇阻部長同意嗎同意好謝謝是謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1117,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（13時25分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機管首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。我上午在提案說明的時候已經有邀請過、也已經先洩題了，現在請大家來答題。","請交通部陳部長、法務部郭司長、警政署李副署長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長、法務部郭司長、警政署李副署長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：早上已經有洩過我要問的題了！部長好、司長好、副署長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我的主題是假車牌要處沒入銷毀方能嚇阻、違規的罰單應向假牌的犯嫌追償。部長你知道嗎？哪些人在使用假車牌？我在下一頁跟你標示了，是要做案的人嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外一個，最近因為我們違規記點，很多車主被吊照、車牌被吊扣，是不是這樣子？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他的車是豪車啊，他怎麼開？放在那裡不捨得啊，買個假車牌來開嘛，罰則太輕，大量使用，是不是這樣子？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：確認喔？OK。往下看，為什麼我主張要沒入銷毀車輛才能嚇阻犯罪呢？副署長，一般來講如果犯罪集團偷了贓車、掛上假車牌，我請教一下，他被抓到之後怎麼處理？他的車輛是不是叫做犯罪所得？犯罪集團偷了車去犯案，這個車是怎麼處理？如果找不到失主。"],["李副署長政曉：只要是失竊的車輛當然是要先扣起來，做案的車子……"],["鍾委員佳濱：扣起來，然後呢？會不會拍賣？犯罪所得拍賣嘛！"],["李副署長政曉：到最後一段時間才會一起拍賣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。部長要知道，因為它被視為是犯罪所得，法務部司長，所以它就會被法拍，你們知道嗎？像這種犯案的車輛、做案贓車法拍的價格很低啊，所以犯罪集團再把它買回來繼續犯案，部長，有沒有「夭壽」？因為反正掛假車牌嘛，部長了解了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果我們不把用假車牌犯案的車輛當做犯罪工具沒入銷毀，它就在那邊循環，部長這樣了解了喔？"],["陳部長世凱：了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，接下來另外一個，如果是開豪車呢？我的車值三、四百萬啊，但是被吊扣，那我就弄了一個假車牌，我沒有犯罪喔，請問這輛車扣到了怎麼處理？拍賣嗎？沒入嗎？銷毀嗎？還沒想過，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我們新的修訂方法是沒入。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒入後怎麼樣？請告訴他沒入後怎麼樣。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，沒入後依規定可以銷毀。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以銷毀。其實我是覺得要大概區分一下用假車牌的目的，我是認為沒入銷毀這次出手很重，很好，打擊犯罪集，不要讓這些贓車無限循環，但是如果他只是因為買了豪車用了假車牌要來開開過過癮，其實你讓他拿不回去他就已經很痛了，是不是這樣子？你們回去研究一下，這題我沒有答案。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：往下看，使用假車牌的這些違規罰單要向誰拿？我的車牌被人家拿去做假車牌了，要找我拿嗎？不是嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：不會啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那以後呢？使用假車牌這個時間的違規罰單找誰罰？"],["陳部長世凱：當然是違規的那個人。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，這個被害的車主……"],["鍾委員佳濱：行為人嘛，對不對？"],["林司長福山：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就是行為人。所以這就是我們這一次修法本席提案的兩個重點，透過加入沒入銷毀來阻卻犯罪集團用假車牌、用贓車繼續犯案，但是我們要思考一下，如果他是豪車、他沒有犯案，那他使用假車牌要怎麼去處罰？你們要去斟酌。以及最後我主張在使用假車牌之間的交通違規向行為人追償，做得到嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個沒有錯，一定是這麼做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯喔？好。所以今天本席就是這個提案，也希望部長、司長還有警政署、法務部未來對於日新月異的犯罪手法，要及時的透過相關的行政監理手段來予以嚇阻，部長同意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","接下來有請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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佔9%第四個是當乘客、坐車當乘客 佔4%開小客車 佔3%這個沒有錯吧 局長沒有錯那現在目前公路局上面我來看請問75歲是不是要"},{"start":223.393,"end":247.104,"text":"要換照?要取消他的駕照?75歲要再做認知功能測驗之後才能夠繼續就是說擁有駕照那為什麼他已經是出事最低的為什麼要特別有他特別待遇呢?什麼原因?跟委員報告其實高齡者跟年輕人其實都是在事故的統計上面其實是兩個高峰"},{"start":249.265,"end":265.879,"text":"六五以上一直到七五其實都還是算是高峰高峰是高峰所以剛才從那個那個是你們統計的數據嘛他開車出事是佔3%是最低的嘛那你不開車他就會變成前面騎腳踏車騎車或者當行人對不對"},{"start":270.202,"end":287.748,"text":"你剝奪他開車的權利他就會變成風險更高嘛你到底是想要降低那個風險還是增加那個風險這不是剝奪他開車的權利我們只是做體檢確認他的跑路速度夠快那每一個都要體檢我只是說這個重要政策其實這個隱含的是叫高齡歧視這違憲你知道嗎剝奪你要剝奪這個叫壯實在的開車權利嗎行動移動的自由嗎"},{"start":295.877,"end":300.658,"text":"請檢討這個政策接下來我告訴我們部長現在75歲以上的人你看那個2024年有160萬人這些已經都被歧視了都要吊銷駕照了到了2050年會多少呢?"},{"start":323.045,"end":344.5,"text":"會到420萬人這些人都要被你列管嗎這個真的要檢討這個政策好不好要檢討這個政策另外一個不好意思再借我一分鐘就是另外一個就是觀光觀光產業建立交通部來鼓勵發展撞油"},{"start":345.861,"end":358.431,"text":"因為現在我們對於所謂的引髮想像的旅遊業都是坐著上車睡覺、下車尿尿把那個安全係數引髮旅遊搞得非常無趣其實這一塊"},{"start":360.174,"end":378.92,"text":"這一塊我們從這裡振興國旅壯實在是主力啊主力從你各種的數據旅遊最多的包括非假日旅遊最多的錢最多的最有時間最有錢最有意願做什麼結果我們對這塊是任其方無"},{"start":380.188,"end":407.86,"text":"任其方無而且這一塊台灣如果內部旅遊把它做起來還可以吸引觀光台灣是這一塊聖地耶寶島聖地旅遊中的交通部在這一部分好好的重視因為為什麼都不重視其實我推廣的各個部位我很清楚都是叫做年齡歧視我們都覺得你年紀到了一個程度以後就不好了隨便啦輕輕菜菜啦"},{"start":409.241,"end":438.056,"text":"就是都這種觀念然後呢甚至去剝奪它的價值的這個違憲的這個權利我希望因為部長你很有心的你年輕嘛年輕有為很有新的觀念拜託把它來調整所以OK最後因為已經進入超高零社會明年要有一個新的氣象不然政府毫無作為這個會被人家笑的啦所以我是不是可以請交通部全面檢討第一件事情壯世代的駕照政策"},{"start":439.036,"end":446.785,"text":"第二個是撞車牌的觀光政策,可不可以在一個月之內提這個檢討報告給我的辦公室?好,沒有問題。可以齁?沒有問題。好,謝謝部長、謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（13時17分）主席好，有請陳部長、公路局陳局長，還有觀光署的周署長。"],["主席：請陳部長、陳局長、周署長。"],["吳委員春城：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：辛苦了，開會到這麼晚。"],["陳部長世凱：不會，不會。"],["吳委員春城：本席在立法院一直在推動人口政策，部長知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道。"],["吳委員春城：有聽說嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：就是針對壯年的部分。"],["吳委員春城：對，就是壯世代的部分。臺灣再過43天就進入超高齡社會，交通部準備好了嗎？交通部有在為超高齡社會做一些政策的調整嗎？有沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們有幾個部分，一個部分是公共運輸的部分，確實在超高齡之後，很多長者需要更多的公共運輸，尤其是偏鄉的部分，這個部分我們已經在努力。另外，針對公共運輸的公車業者、客運業者，駕駛不足的部分，我們也將年齡調升，讓一些超過65歲以上的，還可以繼續來做駕駛……"],["吳委員春城：昨天在喜來登飯店那邊發生了一起死亡車禍。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我曉得。"],["吳委員春城：一名年輕的公車駕駛撞死了一個高齡的行人。我們問過公路局，根據調查，駕車肇事率是隨著年齡增加而遞減，從這個表來看，18歲到29歲每十萬人有兩千九百多件，70歲以上只有一千一百多件，駕車肇事率70歲以上的是所有年齡層當中最低的；行人出事的比率則是隨著年齡增加而遞增，最年輕的這個部分只有10.66件，70歲以上是最高有46.66件。從113年1月到8月，65歲上高齡者交通死亡人數前十大原因中，排名第一名的是重型機車，死亡最多，占所有死亡比例當中的57%，高齡者騎重型機車非常危險。第二個就是行人，高齡者走路很危險，占了19%，是第二名。第三個是什麼？是自行車，騎腳踏車危險，占了9%。第四個是坐車當乘客，占4%。開小客車占3%。這個沒有錯吧？局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["吳委員春城：沒有錯，OK，好，目前公路局上面的資料我們來看，請問75歲是不是要換照、要取消他的駕照？"],["陳局長文瑞：75歲要再做認知功能測驗之後才能夠繼續擁有駕照。"],["吳委員春城：他已經是出事最低的了，為什麼要對他有特別待遇呢？是什麼原因？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，其實高齡者跟年輕人在事故的統計上面是兩個高峰，就是65歲以上一直到75歲其實都還算是高峰，因為他們在……"],["吳委員春城：高峰是……所以剛才從那個……那個是你們統計的數據，他開車出事占3%是最低的，他不開車他就會變成前面騎腳踏車、機車或者當行人嘛，對不對？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，因為他使用到其他的，可能是騎機車、開車或者當行人。"],["吳委員春城：你剝奪他開車的權利，他就變成風險更高，你到底是想要降低他的風險還是增加他的風險？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這不是剝奪他開車的權利，我們只是做體檢，確認他的反應速度夠快。"],["吳委員春城：OK，好，我只是說每一個都要體檢的這個重大政策要……其實這隱含的是高齡歧視，這違憲你知道嗎？你要剝奪壯世代的開車權利、行動移動的自由嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個……"],["吳委員春城：這個值得探討，我現在沒時間，因為他已經在催我了，我只要講請檢討這個政策，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["吳委員春城：接下來我要告訴部長，你看現在75歲以上的人2024年有160萬人，這些已經都被歧視了，都要吊銷駕照了；到了2050年會是多少呢？會達到420萬人！這些人都要被你列管嗎？真的要檢討這個政策，好不好？要檢討這個政策！","不好意思，再借我1分鐘。另外一個就是觀光產業，建議交通部鼓勵發展壯遊，因為現在我們對於所謂想像的銀髮旅遊都是上車睡覺下車尿尿，把銀髮旅遊搞得非常無趣，其實從這裡振興國旅，壯世代是主力，從你的各種數據，旅遊最多的包括非假日旅遊最多的、錢最多的、最有時間、最有錢、最有意願去做什麼的，結果我們對這一塊是任其荒蕪，而且這一塊臺灣如果內部旅遊能把它做起來，還可以吸引觀光，臺灣是一塊寶島旅遊聖地，交通部在這一部分要好好的重視。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["吳委員春城：為什麼都不重視？其實我推廣這個，各個部會我很清楚，都是叫做年齡歧視！我們都覺得年紀到了一個程度以後就沒用了、隨便啦，就是都這種觀念，然後甚至去剝奪他的駕駛權利，這個是違憲的。因為部長你很有心、你年輕有為，很有新的觀念，拜託把它調整。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["吳委員春城：最後，因為已經進入超高齡社會，明年要有一個新的氣象，不然政府毫無作為，這個會被人家笑的。所以我是不是可以請交通部全面檢討，第一個是壯世代的駕照政策、第二個是壯世代的觀光政策，可不可以在一個月之內提檢討報告給我的辦公室？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["吳委員春城：可以喔？"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。","接下來請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在場。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157052","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157052","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87d24750a9514452f2117a57b012903f1c1ead249cd0ea4772938357d8e0506d445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:08:18 - 13:17:03","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案及(十)委員林思銘等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」案。【第（十）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案。【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-18","start_time":"2024-11-18T13:08:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T13:17:03+08:00","duration":525,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.49034375,"end":5.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.032218750000002,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.74096875,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.46659375,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.05409375,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.16721875,"end":105.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.46659375,"end":101.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.28909375,"end":111.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.86659375,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.22034375000001,"end":114.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.67596875000001,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.89909375,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.91971875,"end":120.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.88159375000001,"end":119.84346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.23159375,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.22284375000001,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.79659375000001,"end":136.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.73159375,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.39784375000002,"end":136.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.07284375,"end":137.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.62534375,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.38471875000002,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.39284375,"end":144.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.13909375,"end":145.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.88159375,"end":153.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.20971875,"end":154.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.13346875000002,"end":157.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.28096875,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.19596875000002,"end":163.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.60034375,"end":167.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.22409375,"end":168.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.61221875,"end":170.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.36721875,"end":173.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.68346875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.02471875,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.78784375,"end":186.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.79971875,"end":195.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.61659375000002,"end":196.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.10159375,"end":196.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.13534375,"end":196.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.69221875000002,"end":200.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.43034375000002,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.56409375,"end":218.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.85034375,"end":211.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.22096875000003,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.25471875000002,"end":215.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.37221875,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.70471875,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.97846875000002,"end":230.37471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.67846875,"end":231.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.33659375000002,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.84284375000001,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.85034375,"end":240.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.89221875,"end":241.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.57971875,"end":251.56971875000002},{"speake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是偽造車牌的這個事件那我們看到現在偽造車牌達到1012件"},{"start":34.361,"end":50.798,"text":"那如果以刑法來移送的部分是859件那有大概有這個896人那嚴重的影響整個車牌的管理那特別對於整個道路交通安全以及社會治安是有很大的一個傷害"},{"start":52.459,"end":80.455,"text":"甚至懸掛偽造的車牌他不斷的不斷的去違規駕駛造成車牌被盜用的車主他非常的無辜他一直收到這個這個罰單那收到這個罰單雖然有的他沒有報案那就真的是史無對證了那有的有去報案他要花很多的時間去申訴而且他還要回到你的監理站去申請變更的車牌這非常的老民事件不斷的在報"},{"start":81.175,"end":83.016,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":111.495,"end":137.59,"text":"什麼時候,你預計什麼時候會送出來呢?我們希望能夠在一個月之內能夠送到立法院。一個月內送到立法院,因為部長,這個的確一定要加油。是,當然。一定要提起勁好好去做,這個危害大家太傷腦筋了。那所以呢,我們現在看到你除了提高這個罰則,對不對?是。你們的修法內容方向,提高罰則。是。然後呢?"},{"start":138.71,"end":166.986,"text":"接下來對於變造的這些來源你要怎麼樣溯耕你要怎麼去斷源呢對不對溯耕的部分其實我們跟執法單位也就是說警政署的部分其實我們有努力一起在做但是成效就是越來越糟糕有在找源頭所以我告訴你你現在正在修你包括你要怎麼樣去追耕你要去斷源接下來還有一個也就是你讓使用者買不到"},{"start":168.653,"end":168.693,"text":"會議記載這個部分嗎?對。"},{"start":196.767,"end":199.028,"text":"那有些民眾因為被吊銷或只是吊扣"},{"start":219.418,"end":226.692,"text":"他就在那個社群平台就買了一個買了一個假車牌了他也不知道違法這樣有沒有違法"},{"start":228.035,"end":251.429,"text":"你去買那個車牌來搗咧,這樣有沒有違法違法違法嘛違法你們要大力去宣導它不只違法,它還涉及到刑法它還偽造耶,特種文書啊對不對是,沒有錯,這個有刑法的這個有刑法的啊對你們都點頭啊可是還是很多人不知道啊我就被吊銷啦所以我就去網路很方便啊他就寄一個車牌來給我,我就給他吊上去啊"},{"start":252.108,"end":258.727,"text":"委員這個我們加強宣導加強宣導要讓民眾知道說這個是違法的行為以後不要再做這個一定要加強宣導因為"},{"start":260.461,"end":282.213,"text":"本席也就是說你不要說因為台灣的民眾有很多很善良的是他的確需要車子他就想盡一些辦法他取到他最簡單的方式可以取得那這個就糟糕所以本席要求必須要加強去宣導加強去宣導那接下來我要請問說像這樣的一個情況之下很多民眾敢買變造車牌的幫兇"},{"start":284.474,"end":300.465,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣去改善我們要怎麼樣改善因為你使用了偽造車牌的情況呢那你違反了這個很多的治安嘛很多的治安所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到今年到現在喔越來越多這樣的現象"},{"start":301.604,"end":328.255,"text":"你看他好像不重要但是他就是困擾著每一個人的家庭這個真的是很困擾所以呢你跟警方這邊的橫向聯繫你們有沒有聯繫的管道跟平台來掌控這些最新的資料其實報告委員我們跨部會的協調跟跨部會合作目前在查緝跟這個從源頭管制的部分我們目前都一直在進行當中都一直在進行當中好 這個就是部長我要"},{"start":329.555,"end":350.32,"text":"讓你講我故意要讓你講你現在都有在查緝當中可是結果論是不好的所以我請你去精進方案好不好你們的聯絡平台你們的聯絡管道要怎麼去精進這是我今天本席今天所要質詢的重點好不好你去研議書面資料給本席多久給本席"},{"start":353.16,"end":377.397,"text":"應該兩個禮拜之內可以提供委員會。好不好本期也就是希望說我們看到社會面向都是你們辛苦現在在做但是做來成績不理想的時候拜託你們要怎麼去調整好不好兩個禮拜來無照駕駛這麼嚴肅的議題你看到東湖高中生的事件偷開了阿公的車上路了新竹17歲的孩子"},{"start":378.447,"end":389.246,"text":"晚上就把你開出來了部長你看到這些無照駕駛造成這樣子的嚴肅的議題你有沒有什麼方法你即使提高罰則也就是罰則罰錢"},{"start":391.246,"end":417.307,"text":"他還是一樣偷偷就開出來怎麼辦有沒有什麼方案可以去因應一方面提高罰則包括未來的這個車輛我們會一致管理讓他們有警惕心之外針對年長就是65歲以上沒有駕照的這個部分我們會盡量輔導他們去考駕照那對於年幼也就是還未成年的這個部分我們也會加強輔導跟教育單位做輔導而且要練管"},{"start":418.288,"end":431.94,"text":"要列管就是說這些人員第一我們要列管學校要關懷第二就是說針對家長的責任的部分我們也會把它加進來就是家長如果發生這樣的事情家長要一起來上課部長你講到這個重點我們一起來討論你政府是不是應當從家庭的觀念養成這個監製的這個監製的機制那也就是因為無照駕駛他本來就是未成年"},{"start":446.332,"end":464.908,"text":"所以家長本來他就是有責任那所以呢無照駕駛他不只是一個交通安全的問題他是一個社會安全的問題對不對也因為基於這樣的原因你要怎麼樣去做是不是這個家長的部分他的一個"},{"start":466.189,"end":481.297,"text":"連坐對象這是必須納入裡面的要不然你一個小孩他就會成年啊那這怎麼辦呢你要怎麼樣去推廣啊對不對你只好家長你要有責任去管控這個孩子啊"},{"start":482.437,"end":503.262,"text":"對,在這次的求法裡面我們把家長的責任也都納進來對象納入嘛,同不同意對,沒有錯應該要納入,好好的去宣導,好好的去管控好不好,不然這樣子我們對一個未成年你也沒他什麼責啊那這怎麼辦呢,所以不能造成這樣社會的一個不安嘛那連帶這個你贊同把家長納入在你們的這個類別內嘛對不對"},{"start":509.544,"end":510.344,"text":"兼戶人也要有責任。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1024,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時8分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。本席想要跟你討論今天主席所安排的議題，也就是偽造車牌這個事件。我們看到偽造車牌已經達到1,012件，以刑法移送了859件有896人，嚴重影響整個車牌的管理；特別是對道路交通安全以及社會治安，造成很大的傷害。甚至懸掛偽造車牌不斷的違規駕駛，讓車牌被盜用的車主，非常無辜的一直收到這個罰單，車主如果沒有報案，就真的是死無對證；有去報案的車主，他要花很多時間去申訴，還要到監理站申請變更車牌，非常的擾民，而且事件不斷在暴增。很多委員包括本席也都提出了修法，你們到現在才說要提出修法，現在進度如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，修法的整個版本，其實在交通部裡面已擬定了一段時間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你到上週才說要研擬，對不對？現在進度到哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：已經研擬一段時間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候會送出來？"],["陳部長世凱：上週是跟社會說已經研擬了一個成果跟結論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預計什麼時候會送出來呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望能夠在一個月之內送到立法院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，這個一定要加油，一定要提起勁好好去做，這個危害讓大家太傷腦筋了。現在看到你們的修法內容方向是提高罰則，然後對於變造的這些來源，你要怎麼樣溯根、怎麼去斷源？"],["陳部長世凱：有關溯根的部分，我們跟執法單位也就是警政署的部分，也有努力一起在做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但成效就是越來越糟糕啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們有在找源頭，這部分都有在做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以，我告訴你，你們現在正在修法，除了要怎麼樣去追根、斷源，接下來還有一個，就是你要讓使用者買不到，它沒有出路，也就沒用了。"],["陳部長世凱：源頭管制的部分，我們也跟財政部在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要讓使用者買不到，還有就是讓使用者不敢用，要多面向去處理，如果只是提高罰則，也是沒有用，現況就是這麼糟糕啊！"],["陳部長世凱：包含沒入車輛的部分，也是我們這次修法的重點，未來如果會沒入車輛，我相信使用假車牌的人應該會好好考慮一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒入車輛會是這次的修法的重點？"],["陳部長世凱：對，在這次修法裡面，除了罰則提高，另外就是納入沒入車輛的部分，我覺得應該會讓大家……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以，你一個月內會將你們的法送到立法院，我們再好好討論，因為這個問題太困擾民眾了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有些民眾的車牌被吊銷或是被吊扣，就在社群平臺買一個假車牌，他也不知道是不是違法，請問這樣有沒有違法？他去買那個車牌來裝上去，這樣有沒有違法？"],["陳部長世凱：違法！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們要大力去宣導，他不只違法，還涉及到刑法的偽造特種文書，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，這個有刑法規定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個有刑法規定的，你們都點頭啊，可是還是很多人不知道啊！我被吊銷車牌，就去網路上買，很方便的，他寄一個車牌來給我，我就給裝上去啊！"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們加強宣導，真的要讓民眾知道這是違法的行為，以後不要再做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這個一定要加強宣導。因為臺灣很多很善良的民眾，他的確需要車子，就想盡辦法用最簡單的方式去取得，這樣就糟糕了，所以本席要求必須加強去宣導。","接下來，本席要問的是像這樣的情況，民眾敢買變造車牌，成為幫兇，我們要怎麼樣去改善？使用偽造車牌的結果，就危害了治安，今年到現在，這樣的現象是越來越多，看起來好像不重要，但它就是困擾著每一個人的家庭，所以你們跟警方這邊要有橫向的聯繫，你們有沒有聯繫的管道跟平臺，來掌控這些最新的資料？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，透過跨部會的協調與合作，目前在查緝及源頭管制的部分，我們都一直在進行當中，未來會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席就是故意要讓部長來講，你們現在都有在查緝當中，可是結果論是不好的，所以也請你去精進方案好不好？你們的聯絡平臺、聯絡管道要怎麼去精進，這是本席今天質詢的重點，請你們去研議之後，提書面資料給我，多久可以給？"],["陳部長世凱：應該兩個禮拜之內可以提供給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們看到社會面向，也看到你們都辛苦在做，但是做出來的成績不理想時，拜託你們去調整。兩個禮拜把資料給本席。","無照駕駛這麼嚴肅的議題，我們看到東湖高中生偷開阿公的車子上路；新竹17歲的孩子晚上開車子出來，請問部長對無照駕駛的問題有什麼方法？即使提高罰則，也就是罰錢，他還是一樣偷偷開出來。這要怎麼辦？有沒有什麼方案可以去因應？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們一方面提高罰則，包括未來對於車輛，我們會一致管理，讓他們有警惕心之外；針對年長就是65歲以上沒有駕照的這個部分，我們會儘量輔導他們去考駕照，對於年幼就是還未成年的這個部分，我們也會跟教育單位加強輔導，而且要列管……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們怎麼輔導？"],["陳部長世凱：對於這些人員，第一，我們要列管，學校要關懷；第二，針對家長責任的部分，我們也會加進來，如果發生這樣的事情，家長要一起來上課。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你講到這個重點，我們一起來討論。政府是不是應當從家庭的觀念養成監制的這個……"],["陳部長世凱：家長的責任……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是監制的機制。因為他未成年無照駕駛，所以家長本來就有責任，無照駕駛不只是交通安全的問題，也是社會安全的問題，基於這樣的原因，你要怎麼去做？家長是連坐的對象，這部分也必須納入裡面，否則對一個未成年的小孩，我們要怎麼辦？家長有責任去管控自己的孩子。"],["陳部長世凱：對，在這次修法裡面，我們把家長的責任也都納進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對象納入，同不同意？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：應該要把家長納入，好好的去宣導，好好的去管控。要不然對一個未成年的孩子，你也拿他沒輒，這要怎麼辦？不能造成社會的不安嘛！所以你贊同把家長納入這個類別內？"],["陳部長世凱：對，監護人要有責任。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你把你們的研議方案給本席。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久？"],["陳部長世凱：就兩週內，剛剛所說的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就一併嘛！好好來推廣，好好加強宣導！"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，接下來有請吳春城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157051","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157051","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87960e45b1f6643ce5117a57b012903f1c1ead249cd0ea477212ef279f21671aaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"12:58:24 - 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謝謝部長這個充分的反映民意神救援謝謝那接著我要跟你討論就是我們這個配合2050年今年排碳就是我們所有直轄市的這個電動公車在2030年可能就是說全面的電動化嗎這個有機會達到嗎那我先用台南市就是的案例來跟部長做一個探討"},{"start":92.708,"end":93.589,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":115.862,"end":121.727,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ"},{"start":146.285,"end":150.969,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ"},{"start":170.982,"end":186.648,"text":"因為這個補助的誘因是不足的。部長你怎麼看待?如果這是公車業者他如果在補助不足的時候他是不是會轉嫁到消費者身上來?這個是最直接的嘛。部長你有沒有一個比較好的方式來應對呢?"},{"start":187.648,"end":215.68,"text":"我們這個運具的電動化尤其在公共運輸的部分公車的部分其實我們確實有訂立出一個目標那目前我們其實全國的數字來看是有達到那個目標的進度啦今年2024年該達到的進度我們都有達到那台南的部分數字上應該也還是在進度當中嘛還在進度當中那未來確實委員您所說的就是這個誘因要充足的部分過去的運行到目前為止其實是都還大家都還能夠運行"},{"start":216.88,"end":231.506,"text":"你現在有達到不代表你在5年內你可以充分的就是說把所有還沒有達到的這1萬多的一個數量那你國內只有3家就是國產國造的這些電動車廠目前已經到4家應該還會再增加"},{"start":232.807,"end":245.892,"text":"二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":254.416,"end":267.808,"text":"全台灣這幾萬台的公車的一個淘汰顯然你是認為就是說已經是第四家業者審核通過了那所以沒有問題五年內可以做出這麼多的一個電動公車的一個補足嗎"},{"start":268.737,"end":285.033,"text":"我們現在盡量一方面補助買車的業者二方面也希望說可以提供車輛的這些業者能夠健全一點經濟部也在協助這個部分尤其在國產化的部分也在努力當中那我們會跟委員您今天所提到的我們會趕快跟業者"},{"start":285.734,"end":300.688,"text":"尤其是客運業者趕快來溝通說如果還有需要什麼樣的幫助或協助讓他們未來可以能夠快速的達標的話這個部分我們來跟他們協調部長在這裡跟你做一些建議這個就是說我們其實就是在這整體的研究裡頭有"},{"start":301.889,"end":305.25,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":324.895,"end":325.676,"text":"黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,"},{"start":351.215,"end":377.027,"text":"自己維修的保養的一個能力啊那避免就是你的電商就是延待的保養那是還有就是烘台會用那不知道就是說部長你怎麼來看待這些?是,報告委員他維修跟保養的這個部分是不是我們公路局其實有在協助啦有在協助他們客運公司自己訓練他們的人員可以自己來做維修跟保養就不會被製造商掐住脖子"},{"start":377.427,"end":404.418,"text":"我覺得這樣子就是這樣子一個胡搗是很正向的可是你的量要大你的量要大你的量能大的話你就不至於就是說被電商就是掐住你的脖子那我們也在這裡這個是客運業者希望我們轉達的一個就是說這個他們個人的一個建議他們說電動車就是一直透過客運者來領取政府的一個補助"},{"start":404.858,"end":418.187,"text":"可是這所有政府的補助相關部門驗收跟審查作業通通都是在刻印業者長期的一個承擔已經接近12年了喔那這個是一個好奇怪的政策啊怎麼為什麼這個補助款是電動業業者"},{"start":421.809,"end":437.239,"text":"他這些車傷領走了那所有的這些審查的作業而是客運業者要去那個來做的所以這個我想部長那個要注意這些問題那我也希望你給我一個書面的一個回應"},{"start":438.16,"end":459.087,"text":"最新的電動車大客車的登記的一個數量你要必須充分去掌握還有各縣市市區的公車電動化的一個進度電動巴士國產化目前推動的一個進度那在跟那個主席借用一分鐘的時間接著就是要跟部長特別提到了就是那個討論T-Bus"},{"start":460.307,"end":461.448,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":472.708,"end":473.649,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":492.172,"end":506.023,"text":"黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,黃健豪等17人,"},{"start":519.474,"end":546.313,"text":"沒有多少錢幾千萬而已你一定可以你絕對可以你再來再下一張這個為什麼為什麼只有幾千萬這個因為兩地的系統的整合卡關了那在嘉義的時候他的票務的系統跟那個南高坪的統一票務的一個系統他沒有辦法連結所以我希望就是說是不是部長你可以來幫我們處理這樣子一個很簡單的一個問題"},{"start":548.39,"end":556.344,"text":"我們這個趕快跟地方政府來協調看要怎麼對大家要有共識啦大家有共識兩邊的地方政府都有共識就是沒錢"},{"start":558.015,"end":559.597,"text":"二、審查 ﹝提供答案﹞"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":993,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（12時58分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，先與你討論一個時事的議題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["賴委員惠員：2024世界棒球十二強賽正在火熱進行中，尤其是昨天我們11：3大勝澳洲隊，你知道現在一群人11月21日到11月25日……"],["陳部長世凱：想去東京。"],["賴委員惠員：大家都想去東京，但是都買不到機票啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們今天確實有看到數據，今天的訂票率非常高，到昨天還沒什麼變化，但今天的變化就蠻大的，針對這個部分，民航局已經在協調我們自己的國航。兩個方面，一個方面是加開班機，第二個方面是有沒有可能直接小機型換成大機型，讓載客量可以再增加，這個部分我們正在努力。此外，如果有日本的航空公司願意幫忙飛的話，我們也會儘量協助他們取得飛航的航班。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝部長，充分的反映民意、神救援，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：接著要與你討論，為了配合2050年的淨零碳排，所有直轄市的公車在2030年要全面電動化，這個有機會達到嗎？本席先用臺南市的案例來跟部長做探討，臺南市的公車大概有420台，目前為止只有113台是電動公車，有307台是柴油公車，等於有近七成的比例是還沒有達成的。電動公車補助誘因不足，也是本席下一頁要來跟部長探討的問題。相信部長非常清楚，買一台電動公車需要1,000萬，裝設充電樁要2,000萬，電池也要500到600萬，三到五年就要換一次，林林總總的開銷讓運輸業者吃不消；交通部如果想要有更貼近地方的政策，是不是需要有一個通盤的規劃？有一則新聞報導特別提到，今年2月份的時候，臺中的電動公車業者就倒了一家，然後退了一家，為什麼？因為這部分的補助誘因是不足的。部長怎麼看待這件事情？在補助不足的時候，公車業者是不是會轉嫁到消費者身上？這個是最直接的嘛！請問部長，你們有沒有一個比較好的方式來應對？"],["陳部長世凱：是的，報告委員，有關運具的電動化，尤其在公共運輸公車的部分，我們確實有訂定出一個目標；目前就全國的數字來看，其實是有達到那個目標進度，也就是今（2024）年該達到的進度，我們都有達到。臺南的部分在數字上，應該也還是在進度當中。確實如委員所說的，誘因的部分未來要再充足；過去運行到目前為止，其實大家都還能夠運行……"],["賴委員惠員：部長，現在有達到，不代表你在五年內，可以充分達到還沒有達到的這一萬多的數量，而且國內國產國造電動車只有三家……"],["陳部長世凱：目前已經到四家，應該還會再增加。"],["賴委員惠員：到四家的時候，就算是日以繼夜去生產，其實也都沒有辦法去補助這一萬多台的電動公車；你們有沒有比較好的方式可以來因應全臺灣幾萬台公車的淘汰呢？顯然你認為第四家業者已經審核通過了，所以沒有問題？五年內可以生產補足這麼多電動公車嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在儘量一方面補助買車的業者，二方面希望可以提供車輛的這些業者能夠健全一點，經濟部已在協助這部分，尤其是國產化的部分，也在努力當中。委員今天所提到的問題，我們會趕快跟業者，尤其是客運業者來溝通，如果還需要什麼樣的協助，可以讓他們未來快速達標的話，我們也會來跟他們協調。"],["賴委員惠員：我在這裡要跟部長做一些建議，其實我們在整體研究裡面，已規劃出多元車型的一個選擇，顯然你現在只補助大型車，中、小型車的部分其實是沒有補助的。以本席的選區來講，很多都在偏鄉，像白河、東山、北門、將軍，根本不需要用到那麼多的大型公車，因為當地人口數少，所以你應該提供客運業者中型車跟小型車的一個選擇；還有你鼓勵車輛要國產化，我們當然希望國產化，國產國造是最高的指導原則，可是你的技術需要客運化！為什麼技術需要客運化？就是你要讓客運業者自備維修、保養的能力，避免電動車商商延宕保養、哄抬費用。不知道部長怎麼來看待這些？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，維修跟保養的部分，其實我們公路局也有在協助客運公司訓練他們的人員，可以自己來做維修跟保養，就不會被製造商掐住脖子，這個部分我們要再努力。"],["賴委員惠員：我覺得這樣的一個輔導是很正向的，可是你的量能要大，就不至於被製造商掐住脖子……"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯！"],["賴委員惠員：另外，客運業者希望我們在這裡轉達他們的一個建議，他們說電動車的補助一直是透過客運業者來領取，相關部門的驗收跟審查作業長期也統統都是客運業者在承擔，已經將近十二年。這真是一個奇怪的政策，為什麼補助款是電動車業者，也就是車商領走了，而所有的審查作業，卻要客運業者來做？請部長注意這些問題，也希望你給我一個書面的回應，包括最新電動大客車登記的數量，你們必須充分去掌握，還有各縣市的市區公車電動化的進度、電動巴士國產化目前推動的進度等等。","再跟主席借用一分鐘的時間，要跟部長討論TPASS在本席選區執行上的一個困難。因為大臺南是一個狹長的地形，本席的選區剛好在跟嘉義縣、嘉義市連結的地方，我們共同的生活圈，其實是跟嘉義縣、市連結在一塊的，我們大部分都仰賴火車當作主要的交通工具，現在TPASS把嘉嘉南納入了臺鐵，而我們卻沒有列入臺鐵。6月26日嘉義縣跟臺南市政府曾一起開會，會中達成共識──大家都覺得應該要納入臺鐵，可是問題是沒有錢；臺南市政府跟嘉義縣政府都用沒有錢來推拖。部長知道要多少錢嗎？其實沒有多少錢，就幾千萬而已，你一定可以，你絕對可以！為什麼需要幾千萬？因為兩地的系統整合卡關了，嘉義的票務系統沒有辦法跟南高屏統一票務系統連結。部長是不是可以幫我們處理這樣一個很簡單的問題？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們趕快跟地方政府來協調，大家要有共識……"],["賴委員惠員：兩邊的地方政府都有共識，就是沒錢。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，有關臺鐵票差的部分，其實我們是補助百分之九十，是很高的。"],["賴委員惠員：對，百分之九十，但就還缺那麼一點點錢，是不是我們再把加把勁將它促成，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們跟嘉嘉南再談一下，跟地方政府再談一下。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。作以下宣告：伍麗華委員發言之後，休息20分鐘。接下來有請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":463.345,"end":484.417,"text":"有這些相關這個契約跟這個執行的一個這個機制所以請六都交通局這個第一個去這個查查做了解那另外部分也一遍提到如果說有涉及到聯絡壟斷的部分那請他們立即通報給公民會來做查處市長本席給你一分鐘的時間結果講完之後你沒有回答問題耶"},{"start":485.799,"end":499.244,"text":"我們現在在講的是說連新聞都報導了小黃駕駛都已經跟我本席我相信可能很多委員也都有接到類似的陳情確實就是有調漲嘛從原本的這個靠航費用一個月1200元變1200變1800"},{"start":502.105,"end":519.725,"text":"包委員這個查處是在地方政府是我們有轉給地方政府請他們去查處但現在的狀況我們問路政司對不對你相關單位說到底有沒有這樣的狀況結果講了半天之後過了半年你六都還是沒有掌握啊那我身為中央主管機關難道可以放任嗎"},{"start":521.277,"end":540.13,"text":"我不管是車廂政府或地方政府第一有調漲是事實那如果說有調漲的話有沒有聯合壟斷的狀況那第二很多人也在討論啊過去可能有時空背景計程車需要抗航費那但到底抗航費的意義是什麼"},{"start":542.996,"end":566.446,"text":"現在很多計程車駕駛也問我們這件事我們說實在我一瞬間我也不知道你計程車司機已經考到職業駕照了那也是我們交通部的相關監理單位發的這個職業駕照可是你也不能上路你還是要去靠一個行這個是地方管轄目前他們沒有通報我們那這個部分因為您在要求我們趕快去跟他們地方政府瞭解一下他們目前查處的狀況"},{"start":567.586,"end":595.185,"text":"因為現在真的很多的小黃司機他們認為是說他們羊毛出在羊身上但是好像被層層剝削他們就是最末端最可憐的就是我們會跟地方政府來瞭解他們查處的狀況什麼時候可以給本席一個回覆一個禮拜可以嗎兩個禮拜我們發文去問他們啊等他們回我們跟你們報告本席還是會持續的關心兩個禮拜給本席跟交通委員會委員回覆好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":598.242,"end":598.446,"text":"謝謝洪委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":959,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時48分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳世凱部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，近年來偽變造車牌氾濫，假車牌讓人家深惡痛絕，就是因它害人害己，而且社會成本讓全民承擔，本席特別看了一下你今天的報告，專題報告裡面以及相關單位提出的這個報告有講，你的報告第2頁要求讓我們的查緝作為源頭管理，讓他買不到，第3頁修法加重處罰，讓他不敢賣。如果說可以做到的話，本席認同，而且本席在兩個多月前踢爆現在的網路亂象之後，我們也認為說應該要有更積極的作為，讓他買不到跟不敢賣。","但是如同我今天早上的提案說明，現在的狀況是什麼？我們來看一下，你只要打關鍵字，這個是今天早上11點36分，本席剛剛去社群媒體平臺看的，只要你搜尋關鍵字，有帳號、有下面的內容：1比1製作，機車、汽車、貨車提供號碼就可；再來，洋洋灑灑的有：加ID，專業訂做臺灣1比1車牌；再來，還有：請勿上路，犯法概不負責。重點在於，他就是告訴你可以買仿真車牌！部長，這麼嚴重的狀況跟氾濫的狀況，源頭管理我們能夠怎麼做？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於源頭管理的部分，一部分是從海關的部分，就是關務的部分也有協助我們，讓這種假車牌進不來；第二個部分，其實就是您現在所指出來網路上面的部分，我們現在公路局其實每一天都有用機器人程式在掃，有掃到的就會馬上移送，另外我們也會拜託數發部那邊幫我們做下架的動作，不過目前數字上確實有些落差，我們移送了大概五百多件，那實際上下架差不多四十幾件、41件而已，中間的落差有一部分是在於，它是個人的LINE群組或者個人的臉書，這個部分確實速度慢了，那我們也希望說明天跟數發部開會再來討論這個議題。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，經過瞭解，明天數發部也會召開會議，再來確認網路上面怎麼樣能夠再加速下架。"],["洪委員孟楷：關於你自己報告第2頁的變造車牌，公路局近三年的違規統計，111年56件、112年50件到113年69件，換言之，其實你們從111年就已經注意到這樣的一個議題，只是因為在今年大幅成長；再加上本席之前的提案說明也有講，今年的幾個重大刑案其實都跟假車牌相關，警政署也有私下跟本席講，幾個臺南發生的重大槍擊事件為什麼那麼難抓？就是因為那個車手都是用假車牌，所以製造斷點，製造斷點之後，才會變成很多的重大刑案沒有辦法追究真兇。那這些問題難道都沒有看到嗎？","本席現在只講，我們到目前為止，如果說我們現在討論……當然提高罰則、沒入車輛本席都支持，甚至本席有提的提案，只要任何人、行政部門或是我們委員有更嚴格的版本，我也樂意支持，就是因為我認為現在這樣的狀況已經太誇張、氾濫到浪費國家資源，而且讓我們的治安已經受到嚴重的衝擊！可是重點在於，現在這些部分呢？"],["陳部長世凱：在執法面的部分，報告委員，關於我們跟內政部警政署還有數發部的跨部會合作，我們也正在積極協調當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，有沒有信心？你說跨部會合作，但也已經那麼久了，有沒有信心？至少能夠不要讓國人那麼輕易地搜尋到，我覺得有些時候是這樣子，我可能不一定有犯意，但是太簡單、太便宜了，5,000塊、8,000塊一個，可能我本來沒有這樣的想法，但我滑著、滑著也就覺得不然買買看，會不會有這樣的狀況？可能有！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，有沒有信心？跟數發部，如果說數發部真的沒有……你說明天要開會，能不能部長直接跟數發部部長，就是陳部長跟黃部長兩個人討論一下怎麼樣能夠解決，至少讓……如果必要時候再加劉部長嘛，內政部也一起來，至少讓國人不要在社群媒體那麼容易找到這個資訊！"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個部分跟委員報告，我會來請教黃部長在數發部的部分能夠提供什麼樣子的協助。我覺得這個議題要多管齊下，各部會自己轄管的部分，我們大家一起來努力，交通部針對這個罰則的部分，我們也提出了一個精進的方案，那也是委員們也一直很關注的，所以大家一起來努力這個方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以你會親自跟部長溝通？"],["陳部長世凱：我可以跟黃部長通電話，沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。","最後一分鐘的時間，我只再關心另外一個議題，因為本席接到很多陳情就是計程車的部分，現在說掛牌的權利金要飆漲，還說靠行計程車的車費也要被調漲，從過去一個月1,200元，到現在有車行調漲到1,800元，甚至有人講說出現聯合漲價的情況。部長，之前不管是雙北或是高雄的車行都有調漲，那4月的時候交通部有下令要請公路局來做調查，但到目前為止，這部分到底有沒有違反？好像也沒有一個下文，但聯合調漲是事實啊！甚至計程車司機表示不排除要上街抗議，因為生活難過啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這有兩個部分，一個部分，它的轄管是地方政府，我們已經請臺北市交通局查處這個部分。第二個部分，在公平會的部分，我們應該也有協助計程車司機……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們查到的狀況如何，現在半年過去了，到底有沒有聯合調漲？"],["林司長福山：報告委員，我們在4月份就立即將文轉給臺北市政府交通局，根據我的了解，臺北市政府交通局公運處也有向這些公工會做回復說明，但是可能有些個案沒有處理到相關比較細部的部分，所以他們公會與聯盟有再來文，我們在上個禮拜也立即將這個公文轉給六都的交通局，特別請他們針對兩個事項，因為計程車自備車輛參與經營相關契約的部分，包括剛剛委員講的靠行費的部分，當時商業公會與駕駛人工會都訂有相關契約執行機制，因此請六都的交通局，第一個要去查察並做了解，另外一個部分也一併提到，如果有涉及到聯合壟斷的部分，請他們立即通報公平會進行查處。"],["洪委員孟楷：司長，本席給你1分鐘的時間，結果你講完之後並沒有回答問題耶！這件事連新聞都報導了，而且小黃駕駛也向本席陳情，我相信可能很多委員也都有接到類似的陳情，確實就是有調漲，從原本的靠行費用每個月1,200元變成1,800元啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個查處是在地方政府，我們已經轉給地方政府，請他們去查處。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但現在我們問路政司，相關單位到底有沒有這樣的狀況，講了半天，這件事都已經過了半年，六都還是沒有掌握啊！身為中央主管機關，難道可以放任嗎？不管是中央政府或地方政府，第一，調漲是事實，這個調漲是否有聯合壟斷的狀況？第二，很多人都在討論，過去可能有時空背景，計程車需要繳靠行費，但靠行費的意義到底是什麼？很多計程車駕駛也問我們這件事，說實在的，一瞬間我也不知道。計程車司機已經考到職業駕照，也是我們交通部相關監理單位發的職業駕照，卻還是不能上路，必須要去靠一個行。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是地方管轄，目前他們沒有通報我們，這個部分因為你要求我們趕快向地方政府了解目前查處的狀況，所以我們會向臺北市交通局……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在真的是有很多小黃司機認為羊毛出在羊身上，但是好像被層層剝削，他們就是最末端、最可憐的……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會向地方政府了解他們查處的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以給本席一個回復？一個禮拜可以嗎？兩個禮拜？"],["陳部長世凱：兩週好不好？我們發文去問他們，等他們回文之後，我們再向委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席還是會持續關心，兩個禮拜給本席及交通委員會的委員回復，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。","接下來請賴惠員委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87fa7743ba70977bfb117a57b012903f1c1ead249cd0ea477200ff06c9c86dfe3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:42:33 - 12:48:11","影片長度":"00:05:38","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案及(十)委員林思銘等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」案。【第（十）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案。【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-18","start_time":"2024-11-18T12:42:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T12:48:11+08:00","duration":338,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":3.8953437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.334093750000001,"end":5.0934687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.72096875,"end":42.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.84284375,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.095968750000004,"end":57.422843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.422843750000006,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.165343750000005,"end":58.182218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.182218750000004,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.33409375,"end":91.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.83096875000001,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.34596875000001,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.33721875,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.40846875000001,"end":188.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.54159375,"end":198.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.36721875,"end":197.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.22346875000002,"end":204.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.72909375,"end":203.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.08346875,"end":204.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.10034375,"end":204.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.15096875,"end":204.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.16784375,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.26034375,"end":229.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.71659375000002,"end":234.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.98659375000003,"end":230.79659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.46721875,"end":233.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.37409375000001,"end":234.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.45846875,"end":244.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.92096875000001,"end":244.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.93784375,"end":247.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.01346875000002,"end":256.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.48034375000003,"end":262.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.56471875,"end":256.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.52596875,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.82534375,"end":270.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.64284375,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.92534375,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.02596875,"end":335.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.68409375000005,"end":330.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.97846875000005,"end":336.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.13846875,"end":338.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.17221875,"end":338.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.44221875,"end":338.96534375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.171,"end":3.552,"text":"有請部長。陳部長。"},{"start":13.725,"end":37.072,"text":"請問部長你知道2016年到2023年平均每年違反道路交通管理處罰條例第21條的各項各款包括未領有駕照、偽造、變造、駕照、駕照、吊銷、吊扣等無照駕駛的總案件量是多少?每年平均?每年大概30萬件左右"},{"start":39.373,"end":57.768,"text":"我這邊看到是27.7萬件每天大概將近760件那這還只是抓到的路上無照的黑數不知道有多少那絕對是臺灣我們道路安全的一個重大隱患對不對是沒錯"},{"start":58.427,"end":87.118,"text":"那我也看到交通部在10月底召開記者會說這個宣布要推動修法主要方向是四個啦第一個是提高相關罰環1.5倍然後第二延長吊扣牌照期間第三個是車輛當場一致保管期滿才能領回那第四個是致人輕傷4年不得考領然後致人重傷死亡終身不得考領請問還會有其他的修法方向嗎除了這四大點因為"},{"start":88.078,"end":116.735,"text":"報告委員目前我們大概修法方向就是這四個重點好 那麼事實上道交處罰條例21條去年也4月修訂過了那麼6月上路當時修法方向其實也差不多提高罰緩嘛 對不對然後增加調扣期間嘛那你知道去年修法之後違反這個道交條例第21條各款各項的案件有明顯下滑嗎"},{"start":117.635,"end":138.613,"text":"報告委員沒有明顯下滑所以這次我們才會再推動一次的修法所以其實去年修法方案跟今年大部分相同只是有加得更嚴一點那是不是交通部10月能提出的方案能不能解決問題其實我覺得很多民眾還是會有一點問號因為去年已經加重一次"},{"start":139.714,"end":162.04,"text":"這個加重似乎也沒有達到明顯的效果那今年再加重是不是能達到明顯的效果當然我覺得民眾中間就會有一點心理的疑惑比方說去年這個徵定道交處罰條21條第二項就汽車駕駛在五年內累犯兩次以上那違反案件其實去年的平均是15727件今年反而變多了是16194件"},{"start":168.061,"end":180.365,"text":"那另外包括說第三項就是汽車駕照被吊扣吊銷仍然駕駛去年的月平均是2064件今年就變成是2918件這兩個其實都是加嚴那為什麼結果反而數字是上升呢這兩項"},{"start":188.987,"end":198.133,"text":"報告委員這個數字確實是上升那這個部分我們這一次在加研的部分有特別在加入就是說汽車的部分然後直接"},{"start":199.284,"end":220.893,"text":"一致保管 直接一致保管然後另外就是牌照的部分就直接扣下來了這個部分我們也會再來做加強我這樣跟部長說啦當然我覺得那個部長你們現在修法當然是希望能夠透過提高罰則然後能夠去減少這些道路危害的一些狀況可是我覺得"},{"start":221.713,"end":243.214,"text":"很多都是集中在所謂的駕照、罰緩但是我覺得其實還有一個重點就是車輛車輛就一致保管一致保管就是不能開的意思我覺得基本上除了一致保管期滿才能領回之外有沒有考慮到所謂的末路車輛的可能性"},{"start":245.295,"end":268.026,"text":"末路應該是看狀況根本報告末路的部分的話大概先行第二項就是說無照駕駛如果致人這一個重傷死亡就這一個直接末路我講的是把條件所謂的這個含澀性再放大一點有可能嗎這個部分可能要整體和明信再做一個考量那因為無照駕駛的部分的話確實剛剛委員提到"},{"start":270.248,"end":285.341,"text":"我這樣講其實你們的修法裡面有一樣就有效果剛剛前面講兩個其實都是比較逐一對人性的那你就發現其實你增加加嚴之後其實案件還是增加反而增加但是你們在這個道交條例處罰條例21條第6項"},{"start":287.583,"end":312.826,"text":"是誰連坐嚴懲汽車的所有人然後這是唯一去年到今年有明顯減少的新規定那去年是月平均是1130件今年剩下890件所以我覺得有些東西你可以參考去年的修法的狀況但你對車子本身如果說有一些更嚴格的一些處置的話那我覺得可能這個嚇阻力會更強"},{"start":313.867,"end":334.958,"text":"當然現在有一些末路的規定但是末路規定可能太狹隘太狹限了那是不是可以考慮針對末路的規定能夠有更一體的一個研究是 報告委員我們到時候案子送來的時候是不是我們在委員會我們再來繼續來討論好 那我有再提那個法律案到時候請那個交通部再來參考一下是好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":930,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時42分）有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["羅委員智強：請問部長知道2016年到2023年，平均每年違反道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條的各項各款，包括未領有駕照、偽造、變造駕照、駕照吊銷、吊扣等無照駕駛的總案件量是多少，每年平均？"],["陳部長世凱：每年大概30萬件左右，剛剛有委員質詢過。"],["羅委員智強：好，我這邊看到是27.7萬件。"],["陳部長世凱：對，將近30萬左右。"],["羅委員智強：對，每天大概將近760件，這還只是抓到的，路上無照的黑數不知道有多少，那絕對是臺灣道路安全的一個重大隱患嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：我也看到交通部在10月底有召開記者會宣布要推動修法，主要方向有四個，第一個是提高相關罰鍰1.5倍，第二是延長吊扣牌照期間，第三是車輛當場移置保管，期滿才能領回，第四個是致人輕傷，四年不得考領，致人重傷死亡，終身不得考領，請問還會有其他修法方向嗎？除了這四大點以外。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前我們大概修法方向就這四個重點。"],["羅委員智強：好，事實上道交處罰條例第二十一條去年4月也修訂過了，6月上路，當時修法方向其實也差不多，就是提高罰鍰嘛，對不對？然後增加吊扣期間，那你知道去年修法之後，違反道交條例第二十一條各款各項的案件有明顯下滑嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，沒有明顯下滑，所以我們才會再推動一次修法。"],["羅委員智強：好，所以其實去年修法方向跟今年大部分相同，只是有再加得更嚴一點，交通部10月提出的方案能不能解決問題，其實我覺得很多民眾還是會有一點問號，因為去年已經加重一次，但這個加重似乎也沒有達到明顯的效果，那今年再加重是不是能達到明顯效果，當然我覺得民眾在心裡就會有點疑惑。比方說去年增訂道交處罰條例第二十一條第二項，汽車駕駛在五年內累犯兩次以上，違反案件去年的平均是1萬5,727件，今年反而變多了，是1萬6,194件。另外，包括第三項，汽車駕照被吊扣、吊銷仍然駕駛，去年的月平均是2,064件，今年就變成2,918件，這兩個其實都是加嚴，那為什麼結果反而數字是上升呢？這兩項。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個數字確實是上升，關於這個部分，我們這次在加嚴的部分有特別再加入汽車的部分要直接移置保管，另外牌照的部分就直接扣下來了，這個部分我們也會再來做加強。"],["羅委員智強：我這樣跟部長說啦！部長你們現在修法，當然是希望能夠透過提高罰則去減少這些道路危害的一些狀況，我覺得很多都是集中在所謂的駕照、罰鍰，但我覺得其實還有一個重點，就是車輛。"],["陳部長世凱：是，車輛就移置保管，移置保管就是不能開的意思。"],["羅委員智強：基本上除了移置保管，期滿才能領回之外，有沒有考慮到沒入車輛的這個可能性？"],["陳部長世凱：沒入應該是看狀況。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，沒入的部分大概情形在第二項，就是無照駕駛如果致人重傷死亡，就直接沒入。"],["羅委員智強：我講的就是把條件所謂的涵攝性再放大一點，有可能嗎？"],["林司長福山：這個部分可能要整體衡平性再做一個考量，那因為無照駕駛的部分的話，確實剛剛委員提到……"],["羅委員智強：我這樣講，其實你們的修法裡面有一樣就有效果，剛剛前面講的兩個其實都是比較屬於對人性的，那你就發現加嚴之後，其實案件反而還是增加，但是你們在道交管理處罰條例第二十一條第六項是所謂連坐嚴懲汽車的所有人，這是去年到今年唯一案件有明顯減少的相關新規定，去年月平均是1,130件，今年剩下890件，所以我覺得有些東西你可以參考去年修法的狀況，但你對車子本身如果有一些更嚴格的處置的話，我覺得嚇阻力可能會更強，當然現在有一些沒入規定，但是沒入規定可能太狹隘、太狹限了，是不是可以考慮針對沒入的規定能夠有更一體的研究？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，到時候案子送來的時候，是不是我們在委員會再來繼續討論？"],["羅委員智強：好，我有再提法律案，到時候請交通部再來參考一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["羅委員智強：好，以上，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":171.111,"end":189.023,"text":"今天來講大家很關心這個觀光的問題,我們現在觀光逆差7000億了對不對,我們說要把觀光業那個吳淵聰的產業產值要破造,居然沒辦法破造了對吧,這個跳票了吧,造園的產業不可能了"},{"start":190.807,"end":196.811,"text":"這個我們要努力啦他除了國外的旅客進來之外我們還要包含國旅請問你今年750萬的外客可以達標嗎?應該是可以啦750萬這個沒有問題原來是1000萬"},{"start":208.612,"end":235.268,"text":"這個250萬怎麼來就很簡單開放入客入客平均一年有270萬幾年前270萬就OK了我們很歡迎入客來我們很歡迎入客來但是對岸他們有一些政治上面的限制你應該也清楚他其他的省份大部分是不允許來台灣的目前是只有開放福建福建可以到媽祖跟金門但是對岸那邊有限制那個不是我們這邊限制的"},{"start":236.369,"end":256.164,"text":"有個東西啦,你不能夠一推,一推250全部都推給什麼陸委會啊。交通部要挑起來,你應該在院會裡面你要提出一個建議。我現在告訴你,有個方法,你仔細聽喔。自由貿易港區就是好的解方。自由貿易港區什麼意思?就境內關外。境內關外。"},{"start":259.11,"end":275.552,"text":"的概念就是我們當初要推自由經濟示範區的時候就是這個概念說讓入客入貨可以來這裡形同它是關外它不是台灣的所以你那政治東西可以拿掉它就只有來這裡啊"},{"start":276.913,"end":277.554,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":294.068,"end":299.994,"text":"委員你這個建議很好,我們來建議一下,我們來建議一下,但看對岸接不接受啦,如果對岸接受的話,我們內部你來討論。所以我剛才我看了新聞啊,就覺得說你這部長毫無作為啊,就說陸委會沒辦法,這沒辦法,你要想。"},{"start":314.429,"end":330.41,"text":"對不對,自由貿易港區是好的解法,好的解法,境內關外,在臺灣境內但是視同關外,所以大陸的入客來這裡呢,他會說這不是來我們家,那就很多的市府就拿掉啦,這個東西你想一想啊。"},{"start":332.84,"end":353.699,"text":"人證局做點功課,因為現在看起來只有陸柯,而且陸柯大家也知道他的消費額是日課的日本課的兩倍啊,平均的兩倍啊,消費力強,人就多,我們也很歡迎陸柯來,很方便的,現在你卡住啊,卡住這個是解放,自由貿易港區是解放,可以嗎?"},{"start":355.02,"end":356.501,"text":"好,我們朝這個方向來討論,我們朝這個方向來討論,討論看要怎麼處理。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝賴委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":879,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時36分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請交通部的陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：陳部長，我在這個地方有質詢過你，關於自由貿易港區現在還囤積著加熱菸跟電子煙，加熱菸跟電子煙到現在為止都算是違禁品、都不合法，加熱菸不合法、電子煙不合法，因為大家擔心的是加熱菸、電子煙裡面有大麻的萃取物。而且不要忘了，幾天前行政院卓院長還指示把依托咪酯當作二級毒品，當然那個是另外一件事情，不過可見得現在行政院很重視反毒！那關於現在自由貿易港區囤積的電子煙、加熱菸，我記得上一次我質詢過你，你說一個月內要給我一個答案，現在有沒有答案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我會請航港局趕快提供給委員，但是自由貿易港區是這個樣子，委員說的是它可能會到境內來，但自由貿易港區的東西是不會進來的，他們是直接轉出去的。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，自由貿易港區相關條例第十五條規定的很清楚，違禁品不能夠進去啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["賴委員士葆：結果你們現在是違禁品都已經放在那裡！"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們有請航港局……"],["賴委員士葆：依照規定不可以放啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是，航港局他們有去查。"],["賴委員士葆：如果你說只是轉一下，那裡面放嗎啡可以嗎、放炮彈可以嗎？不可以啊！"],["陳部長世凱：這些一定是不行的！"],["賴委員士葆：不可以啊！而且現在大家一推二百五喔，自由貿易港區目的事業主管單位明明就是交通部，我得到的訊息是，你們現在推給衛福部，然後衛福部拒絕啊，他不要當主管單位，現在沒有人當主管單位，但是我們的法律規定，你就是主管單位！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["賴委員士葆：要跳起來，你不能夠一推二百五啊！"],["陳部長世凱：但是在查的過程當中，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：當然你們要會他啦……"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們一定要會他們。"],["賴委員士葆：但是主管是你！對吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是，那個地方是我們沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：對，主管是你！"],["陳部長世凱：港務公司跟航港局有在查。"],["賴委員士葆：你把報告儘快給我。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員士葆：上一次一個月前我就質詢過你，針對怎麼處理，你答應我一個月要給答案，到現在為止，我所知道的是你們一直要推，想推給其他單位，也推不動！"],["陳部長世凱：不是，我們應該要會他們，不是要推。"],["賴委員士葆：另外，今天大家很關心觀光的問題，我們現在觀光逆差7,000億了，對不對？我們說觀光業、無煙囪產業的產值要破兆，現在沒辦法破兆了，對吧？這個跳票了吧？兆元的產業不可能了！"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們要努力，除了國外的旅客進來之外，我們還要包含國旅，國旅的部分也要努力。"],["賴委員士葆：請問今年750萬的外客可以達標嗎？今年目標。"],["陳部長世凱：應該是可以啦，750萬這個沒有問題。"],["賴委員士葆：原來是1,000萬耶，那這個250萬怎麼來？很簡單啊！開放陸客，陸客平均一年有270萬，幾年前270萬就OK了……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們很歡迎陸客來……"],["賴委員士葆：那為什麼不來呢？"],["陳部長世凱：但是對岸他們有一些政治上面的限制，你應該也清楚，它其他的省份大部分是不允許來臺灣的，目前是只有開放福建，福建可以到馬祖跟金門，但是對岸那邊有限制，那個不是我們這邊限制的。"],["賴委員士葆：現在有一個東西啦！你不能夠一推二百五，全部都推給陸委會，交通部要挑起來，你應該在院會裡面提出一個建議，我現在告訴你有個方法，你仔細聽！"],["陳部長世凱：好！"],["賴委員士葆：自由貿易港區就是好的解方，自由貿易港區什麼意思？就境內關外的概念，就是我們當初要推自由經濟示範區的時候，就是這個概念，讓陸客、陸貨可以來這裡，它是關外，它不是臺灣的，所以政治的東西可以拿掉，它就只有來這裡，那個自由貿易港區多大？臺北港旁邊就是自由貿易港區，像航空城，桃園也是自由貿易港區，高雄港也是自由貿易港區，那地方很大啊！你只要開放這個讓陸客來，你某種程度來講就可以解套啦！"],["陳部長世凱：委員的這個建議很好，我們來建議一下。"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？你要去努力study一下。"],["陳部長世凱：但要看對岸接不接受啦！如果對岸接受的話，我們內部來討論。"],["賴委員士葆：你要先丟出來，所以我剛才看了……"],["陳部長世凱：可以，委員剛才所提，我覺得這個是很好建議。"],["賴委員士葆：我看了新聞，就覺得你這個部長毫無作為，就說：陸委會沒辦法，所以這沒辦法。你要想，自由貿易港區是好的解法，境內關外，在臺灣境內，但是視同關外，所以大陸的陸客來這裡，你跟他說這不是來我們這裡，很多束縛就拿掉啦！這個東西你想一想，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們朝這個方向來建議跟討論一下，討論看看是否可行……"],["賴委員士葆：認真去做一點功課，因為現在看起來只有陸客，而且大家也知道陸客的消費額平均是日本客的2倍，消費力強，人又多，也很方便……"],["陳部長世凱：我們也很歡迎陸客來。"],["賴委員士葆：但現在你卡住了，卡住的話，這個是解方，自由貿易港區是解方，可以嗎？儘快提出你的想法，好不好？你們規劃一下吧！"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們朝這個方向來討論，討論看要怎麼處理，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接下來有請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157047","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87e41b089a60cd94a0117a57b012903f1ce2d913a09c00f96f63ac7a6a43004f445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"12:28:56 - 12:36:13","影片長度":"00:07:17","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案及(十)委員林思銘等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」案。【第（十）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案。【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-18","start_time":"2024-11-18T12:28:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T12:36:13+08:00","duration":437,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.570343750000001,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.14784375,"end":8.704718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.25221875,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.78784375,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.22596875,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.672218750000003,"end":31.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.10596875,"end":55.127843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.229093750000004,"end":58.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.806593750000005,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.274718750000005,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.02096875000001,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.69159375000001,"end":68.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.64471875000001,"end":70.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.91846875,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.59596875000001,"end":84.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.21596875,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.78409375000001,"end":111.84471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.96909375,"end":99.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.48159375,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.55659375,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.42096875000001,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.55596875,"end":123.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.62346875,"end":123.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.65721875000001,"end":123.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.67409375000001,"end":125.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.46284375,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.42471875000001,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.72846875,"end":127.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.97721875000002,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.66784375,"end":147.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.83909375000002,"end":167.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.20721875,"end":170.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.05909375000002,"end":173.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.59034375000002,"end":174.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.84346875,"end":193.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.32971875,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.06721875000002,"end":200.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.16846875000002,"end":214.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.61346875,"end":221.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.95846875,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.46409375000002,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.96159375000002,"end":233.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.19284375,"end":233.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.20971875,"end":233.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.22659375,"end":241.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.29409375,"end":233.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.19596875000002,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.57971875,"end":241.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.20409375000003,"end":257.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.41409375,"end":248.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.23971875,"end":257.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.71221875000003,"end":275.98784375},{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華：跟委員報告，我們每一件的事故都有送運安會來做瞭解……"],["林委員德福：我希望能夠把方法提出來，看要怎麼樣去杜絕、怎麼防範，好不好？"],["趙局長興華：這個還是必須用路人要注意路況才有辦法完全杜絕，針對這個部分，我們只能儘量的防止而已。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會儘量宣導，請用路人在開車的時候不要太過依賴自動輔助駕駛的系統，自己要專注。"],["林委員德福：好。本席以觀光安全的角度來提醒陳部長兩件事，一個是觀光風景區公共設施要做好維護；另外一個是遊覽車的維修檢測要落實。這兩件很重要，因為上個禮拜阿里山某座吊橋旁景觀臺的木棧道斷裂，造成一死四傷，出意外的不是吊橋喔，而是旁邊景觀臺的木棧道。"],["陳部長世凱：是，那個是木棧道。"],["林委員德福：尤其今年風災、地震頻傳，本席希望著名觀光風景區的公共設施要做好基本的安全維護，部長，你的看法呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您剛剛提到阿里山的那個案子，那個的轄管是鄉公所，那是鄉公所的一個建置，雖然不是在觀光署的建置裡面，但這個部分我們也會再去巡查，要求地方政府所轄管的一些觀光類製作或者建設的安全品質要顧好。"],["林委員德福：這個我認為很重要！"],["陳部長世凱：當然，這個安全很重要！"],["林委員德福：這方面定期要去巡視，因為有的時間久了，其實就是疏忽，並不是故意，但是疏忽以後就造成很嚴重的問題出現。","像今年5月、10月分別發生遊覽車火燒事件，本席也希望交通部要落實遊覽車的安全管理，要求業者做好遊覽車的維修，讓遊客開心出遊、安全回家，交通部真的要硬起來好好處理。部長，你的看法呢？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會來努力，定期巡查的部分其實一直都有在做，我們也希望不要再發生意外。"],["林委員德福：最後，日本台灣交流協會公布2023年版的日本人在臺安全指南，提醒日本人在臺灣外出時務必要注意預防交通事故，該指南提到，臺灣人口約為日本人口的五分之一而已，但是到2021年，臺灣交通事故的數量超過了日本國內交通事故的數量，交通事故的風險比日本還高。本席是希望交通部要努力改善行人安全的問題……"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個我們來努力。"],["林委員德福：對觀光客常去的景點，譬如說台北101、北門郵局周邊的這些行人穿越道，優先補助地方政府設置科技執法，以洗刷臺灣交通的負面形象。部長，你的看法呢？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分不只是觀光客在意啦，更在意的是我們的國人，所以這個部分交通部應該要來努力，讓行人更安全。"],["林委員德福：我認為這個很重要，好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來有請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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主席請交通部陳部長還有觀光署周署長"},{"start":19.079,"end":45.43,"text":"委員好部長好、署長好我們先來看到觀光的部分其實這邊要提到青年活動中心過去常常是學生社團辦理團康活動的好去處也是很多人學生時期的回憶我們台灣的宗教活動宗教文化活動也很盛行民間的宮廟常常有進香的活動這些香客大樓也是這些香客還有民眾的首選在參與宗教活動的時候"},{"start":46.929,"end":71.25,"text":"特定對象住宿場所一發展觀光條例第70條之二之規定有10年的緩衝期將在明年的1月21日落日也是這一次本次修法的重點之一那這邊要針對我們發展觀光條例就叫部長還有署長幾個問題今年11月3號的時候全國各地的國軍英雄館提供了住宿的服務請問部長知道原因嗎"},{"start":73.629,"end":98.201,"text":"是不是我請署長好不好對不起那個也是因應這個條文的這個規定啦他用地沒辦法取得旅館用地的話他沒辦法進行旅館所以這個部分他就對他們沒有辦法來申請這個登記為旅館業那部長署長你知道目前觀光署列館全國特定對象的住宿數總共有幾處我們現在全數裡面還有這個針對33處裡面在做輔導對"},{"start":102.842,"end":119.75,"text":"列管的部分嗎?列管的部分當時是有118處當時有118處那目前轉型的情況如何?剩下目前86處的部分大概分3個部分一個部分呢他在還是在努力中另外一個就是退場三分之一的部分退場另外一個就是還在觀望"},{"start":120.495,"end":138.421,"text":"是列管中的是有31處那當時根據11月份的資料統計總計118處其中是有86處還在做列管當中那全國118處特定對象住宿場所目前只有9處他們完成了登記那只有佔7.6%"},{"start":140.802,"end":164.975,"text":"本席不惜質疑目前我們觀光署是否有來積極協助這些業者來做轉型我們一直都在努力而且我們在定期每一季幾乎都有開會在做輔導那今年的部分是3月還特別邀集了相關單位譬如說涉及到一些相關的督導部分包括這個國防部、教育部我們都有在積極在協調"},{"start":166.716,"end":187.794,"text":"那主要是用地的問題 國防部和教育部嗎?那其他單位呢?也都有參與 包括這個退伍會對 對 退伍會目前還有21處的業者他們必須在1月21號後才能取得旅館業的登記嘛那部長、署長如果沒有完成修法那他們這21個業者他們要怎麼來做自救?"},{"start":188.393,"end":199.711,"text":"按照法令規定要退場。要退場?是。那我們剛才有看到那其實有一轉型的業者是相當多的那這邊公共署有沒有有沒有來成立專責的機構來進行輔導?"},{"start":203.359,"end":223.747,"text":"署長當初我們公關署有沒有成立部長也在提到了就是有一部分還在繼續努力但是我們覺得還在繼續努力明年他們1月21號還是要有一個因為我們當初是104年嘛還是在我們希望這個10年114年內把它完成是比較好"},{"start":224.372,"end":240.719,"text":"是那本期這邊也要提到因為疫情的關係那有意轉型的業者他們也都是在積極的辦理當中那因為當時疫情的關係那造成嚴盪那這邊我們先來看到部長請問您知道這個這個價目表算不算是提供特定對象的住宿場所"},{"start":242.47,"end":267.6,"text":"這個駕木錶對看起來不一定是特定對象吧不一定是特定對象那這邊吼那本席直接就跟部長說吼這個是海軍是海一家我們來看看海軍是海一家的資料他的主管機關是海軍嘛那開始營運的時間是民國39年8月21號那他的地址是在高雄市的左營區那他的優惠對象是現役的軍人、軍爵還有農民、農眷與國防相關的人員這邊部長"},{"start":270.502,"end":281.537,"text":"這個場所它是否為我們觀光署列管的對象目前應該是對但是高雄市政府它屬於地方政府他們也會分工來做列管"},{"start":282.839,"end":303.559,"text":"署長您提到高雄市政府對他並沒有說到我們觀光署列館在裡面清分的時候是市政府裡面他沒有提報嘛所以他沒有提報那我們這個條文都已經推動10年了對對所以高雄市政府他有本身有去做分工是由那個部長請問交通部要不要來做檢討"},{"start":305.601,"end":319.574,"text":"這個部分我們就一直在檢討沒有什麼問題因為這個目前的列管的部分的定義是透過22個縣市政府那他有沒有來做登記?他是不是?他是不是管理員?公司政府就表示他要退場"},{"start":320.647,"end":341.44,"text":"他目前並沒有退場我們目前得到的訊息是海軍司令部有表示說我們在1月21號之後他將會歇業或者是轉做其他的用途確實是這樣子所以署長您確認他明年會來做歇業嗎我們在3月開會的時候國防部也表示這樣子他沒有其他的意見"},{"start":342.04,"end":369.758,"text":"署長您就是最好先回去就是請相關單位提供資料我們再去跟會議資料再提問一下我們再去跟他們瞭解一下是不是真的有要追查目前得到的訊息是因為如果政府轄下單位可以不做旅館業登記那卻要求國軍英雄館然後還有青年活動中心他們要來做旅館業的登記那這樣子不免會讓其他單位所以是不是有雙重標準應該也是要做旅館業登記我也特別利用這個機會澄清一下譬如說"},{"start":371.279,"end":386.014,"text":"有些公司行號他自己提供給自己員工的他也沒收費沒有這種營業的行為我們剛才看到他確實是有收費這要查證請署長先去做查證我們就查證我們高中市政府時間一到我們就請高中市政府要查辦"},{"start":393.444,"end":413.643,"text":"那這邊本席也要希望這次的修法讓有意願登記的業者我們公安署這邊也要來協助他們這部分我們會來協助那我們接下來看那個防偽車牌那本席在上個月16號在委員會當中也有針對變造車牌來向部長提出進行跨部會的"},{"start":414.484,"end":435.753,"text":"寫上那上週五的時候公路局有邀請我們警政署還有高工局針對防偽車牌進行討論那針對防偽的部分那本席瞭解到交通部比較偏向實務面那所以找了警政署來進行研議那部長知道這個會議嗎我知道他們有開這個會議是那會議的會議討論下來有初步的規劃嗎可以跟委員報告嗎"},{"start":445.709,"end":460.281,"text":"跟我有報告就是我們是對於就是說防偽車牌的相關的一個未來的一個設計那請警政署、公共局給我們一些意見那基本上就是說大概有初步達成明年度大概防偽功能的一個增加的一個規劃的一個共識"},{"start":462.703,"end":487.706,"text":"那我這邊也在請局長提供當時的會議書面資料提供給本席那這邊最後一個問題那針對變造車牌提高罰則共有9位委員提案那提高罰則的部分洪孟楷委員有提1萬到3萬那王洪文委員、林俊信委員還有黃健豪委員是提6千到3萬6那陳書瑋委員也有提5萬到20萬那我們在簡報上面可以看到那對於提高罰則的部分部長的立場是"},{"start":489.063,"end":505.04,"text":"報告委員我們這個提高罰則的部分目前在我們的修法版本裡面有我們會提高到三萬六這個部分我們當然是朝這個方向那包含車輛沒入的部分我們也會把它加進來也就是說整體罰則都會來提高跟增加OK 好 謝謝部長出名 以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時20分）謝謝主席。主席，請交通部陳部長，還有觀光署周署長。"],["主席：陳部長、周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好、署長好。我們先看到觀光的部分，青年活動中心過去常常是學生社團辦理團康活動的好去處，也是很多人學生時期的回憶，臺灣的宗教文化活動很盛行，民間的宮廟常常有進香活動，這些香客大樓也是這些香客還有民眾在參與宗教活動時候的首選，特定對象住宿場所依發展觀光條例第七十條之二之規定有10年的緩衝期，將在明年1月21日落日，也是本次修法的重點之一，這邊要針對發展觀光條例就教部長還有署長幾個問題，今年11月3號的時候，全國各地的國軍英雄館陸續停止提供住宿服務，請問部長知道原因？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是我請署長答復，好不好？"],["周署長永暉：對不起，也是因應條文的規定啦！它沒辦法取得旅館用地的話，沒辦法經營旅館，所以這個部分它就……"],["邱委員若華：所以它們沒有辦法申請登記為旅館業。部長、署長，你們知道目前觀光署列管全國特定對象的住宿總共有幾處？"],["周署長永暉：我們現在全數裡面還有針對33處在做輔導。"],["邱委員若華：列管的部分嗎？"],["周署長永暉：列管的部分當時是有118處。"],["邱委員若華：當時有118處，那目前轉型的情況如何？"],["周署長永暉：目前剩下86處大概分三個部分，一部分還在努力中；另外一個就是退場，三分之一退場；另外一個就是還在觀望。"],["邱委員若華：所以列管中的有31處嘛！"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["邱委員若華：當時，我們根據11月份的資料統計，總計118處，其中是有86處還在列管當中嘛！全國118處特定對象住宿場所目前只有9處完成了登記，只有占7.6%，本席不禁質疑，目前觀光署是否有積極協助這些業者轉型？"],["周署長永暉：我們一直都在努力，而且我們定期每一季幾乎都有開會輔導，今年的部分是3月，還特別邀集了相關單位，譬如說涉及到一些相關督導的部分，包括國防部、教育部，都有積極協調，主要是用地的問題……"],["邱委員若華：只有國防部及教育部嗎？其他有意願轉型的單位呢？"],["周署長永暉：也都有參與，還包括退輔會。"],["邱委員若華：就本席了解，目前還有21處業者必須在1月21號後才能取得旅館業的登記，部長、署長，如果沒有完成修法，他們這21個業者要怎麼做自救？"],["周署長永暉：按照法令規定要退場。"],["邱委員若華：要退場？"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["邱委員若華：我們剛才有看到其實有意轉型的業者是相當多的，觀光署有沒有成立專責的機構進行輔導？署長，當初觀光署有沒有成立？"],["周署長永暉：對，部長也提到了，就是有一部分還在繼續努力，但是我們覺得……"],["邱委員若華：還在繼續努力？明年他們1月21號要落日了。"],["周署長永暉：不是，還是要有一個……因為當初是104年，我們希望10年（114年）內把它完成是比較好。"],["邱委員若華：本席這邊也要提到，因為疫情的關係，有意轉型的業者他們也都是在積極地辦理當中，因為當時疫情的關係造成延宕。這邊我們先來看到，部長，請問您知道這個價目表算不算是提供特定對象的住宿場所？"],["陳部長世凱：這個價目表？"],["邱委員若華：對。"],["陳部長世凱：看起來不一定是特定對象。"],["邱委員若華：不一定是特定對象，本席直接就跟部長說，這個是海軍四海一家，我們來看看海軍四海一家的資料，他的主管機關是海軍，開始營運的時間是民國39年8月21號，地址是在高雄市左營區，優惠對象是現役軍人、軍眷，還有榮民、榮眷與國防相關人員，部長，這個場所是否為觀光署列管的對象？"],["陳部長世凱：目前應該是列管對象。"],["周署長永暉：對，但是他屬於地方政府，高雄市政府他們也會分工來做列管。"],["邱委員若華：署長，您提到高雄市政府，他並沒有受到觀光署列管耶！"],["周署長永暉：在清分的時候是市政府沒有提報。"],["邱委員若華：他沒有提報，這個條文都已經推動10年了，你們橫向聯繫是怎麼回事？"],["周署長永暉：對，所以高雄市政府本身有做分工，是由觀光局處理。"],["邱委員若華：部長，請問交通部要不要來做檢討？"],["周署長永暉：這個部分，我們一直在檢討，沒有什麼問題啊！因為這個目前列管的定義是透過22個縣市政府……"],["邱委員若華：那他有沒有來做登記？他是不是旅館業？"],["周署長永暉：22縣市政府提報的時候，高雄市政府就表示他要退場。"],["邱委員若華：他目前並沒有退場啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前得到的訊息是海軍司令部有表示在1月21號之後，他將會歇業，或者是轉做其他的用途。"],["周署長永暉：對，確實是這樣子。"],["邱委員若華：所以署長您確認他明年會歇業嗎？"],["周署長永暉：我們在3月開會的時候，國防部也是這樣子表示，他沒有其他的意見。"],["邱委員若華：署長，您最好先回去請相關單位提供資料……"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再去跟他們再了解一下。"],["周署長永暉：沒關係，我們會議資料再提供給委員。"],["陳部長世凱：我們再去跟他們了解一下是不是真的有要退場，目前我們得到的訊息……"],["邱委員若華：本席今天會以四海一家為例，是因為如果政府轄下單位可以不做旅館業登記，卻要求國軍英雄館還有青年活動中心他們要做旅館業的登記，這樣子不免會讓其他單位質疑是否雙重標準。"],["陳部長世凱：他如果要做旅館業，應該也是要做旅館業登記。"],["周署長永暉：我也特別利用這個機會澄清一下，譬如說，有一些公司行號自己提供給自己員工的，他也沒收費，沒有這種營業行為，當然是存在；如果……"],["邱委員若華：我們剛才看到他確實是有收費。"],["周署長永暉：對，所以要查證，就是說如果左營的四海一家……"],["邱委員若華：請署長先去做查證。"],["周署長永暉：他不特定的，我們就查證，對，時間一到，我們就請高雄市政府要查辦。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。本席也希望這次的修法讓有意願登記的業者，觀光署這邊也要來協助他們，OK嗎？"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分，我們會來協助。"],["邱委員若華：好。接下來看防偽車牌，本席上個月16號在委員會當中也有針對變造車牌來向部長提出進行跨部會的協商。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員若華：上週五的時候，公路局也有邀請警政署還有高公局針對防偽車牌進行討論，針對防偽的部分，本席了解交通部比較偏向實務面，所以找了警政署來進行研議，部長知道這個會議嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道他們有開這個會議。"],["邱委員若華：會議討論下來的結論有初步的規劃嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，我們對於防偽車牌相關未來的設計，請警政署、高公局給我們一些意見，基本上，大概有初步達成明年度防偽功能增加的規劃的共識。"],["邱委員若華：我這邊也再請局長提供當時的會議書面資料給本席。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["邱委員若華：最後一個問題，針對變造車牌提高罰則共有9位委員提案，提高罰則的部分，洪孟楷委員有提1萬到3萬，王鴻薇委員、林俊憲委員還有黃健豪委員是提6,000到3萬6,000，陳素月委員也有提5萬到20萬，我們在簡報上面可以看到，對於提高罰則部分，部長的立場是？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，提高罰則的部分，目前在我們的修法版本裡面有，我們會提高到3萬6,000，這個部分我們當然是朝這個方向，包含車輛沒入的部分，我們也會把它加進來，也就是說整體罰則都會提高跟增加。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，謝謝部長的說明，以上。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來有請林德福委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e878417c12e2dd2145c117a57b012903f1ce2d913a09c00f96f31a3708ee20255e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:10:43 - 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委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":129.878,"end":157.225,"text":"到底後面有沒有什麼規劃?是,委員您那天質詢完之後跟陳雪生委員也有特別質詢這個問題所以我拜託觀光署我們再繼續加碼然後讓他至少要到元旦假期元旦至少到元旦好啦好啦那個這個就請交通部、觀光署繼續努力啦因為我那一天也看到馬祖縣政府他們一開始第一個月他們出了500觀光署出了100嘛"},{"start":158.465,"end":181.072,"text":"那我本想說公共署再撐個200他們再多撐兩個月應該沒問題所以我那時候覺得公共署應該沒問題有這麼做那後來發現馬祖先這麼說我們自己準備一個月那就很傷腦筋那當然就是說我們現在去思考馬祖高碼這條線最大的問題要克服的困難"},{"start":181.972,"end":209.27,"text":"不是每一次的補助而是剛才部長有提到固定航班那固定航班其實最大的問題是油品的問題部長應該可以去中油把馬祖航空因為馬祖有個叫馬祖油品啦他們自己獨立的公司啦那馬祖油品你要叫中油去接中油不願不想去接你馬祖的你現在都了結啦"},{"start":210.123,"end":231.934,"text":"你馬祖最了不起,要叫我去接動員,我中邮不來啦。但是呢,其實我講一個最極端的就是說,馬祖航空就宣布公司結束,假設是這樣。那馬祖的油,誰要負責還是要保持馬祖有一些油,應該是中油。"},{"start":233.089,"end":252.849,"text":"所以我覺得可能要拜託部長跟經濟部跟中友去溝通啦就是說這類是最根本解決的問題這個解決以後我們才有機會固定航班這是第一個問題那第二個問題剛剛學生也提到了軍中軍中的飛機飛回來那個也要協調啦你們都自己背"},{"start":256.462,"end":264.603,"text":"阿沒要坐飛機當然你就沒來啦人數就沒夠所以軍中我們有很多的將士兵"},{"start":265.56,"end":289.822,"text":"他們回來南部其實不只是高雄作業你可以把小港機場、高雄機場要想像成南高屏這樣一起思考我想南高屏都會來當然就是說它基本上高雄機場的功能絕對不是處理高雄人的問題所以這兩個問題我是覺得部長可以花一點心思請大家去溝通這兩個問題解決"},{"start":292.124,"end":320.581,"text":"這個問題大概就解決啦但是什麼時候解決我現在我剛剛選政中提到我又不是部長我也不能講什麼時候可以解決那要拜託部長這兩個方向我們會盡量想辦法讓他的運量能夠起來運量起來其實固定航班那都不行其實我剛講這兩個問題你想辦法去解決馬祖問題高碼問題大概就解決了是是好所以希望說部長可以再多努力一下那另外呢最近我們高雄機場發生了那個計程車排班"},{"start":322.457,"end":342.315,"text":"說去要檢查那個什麼五等親以上那個已經已經拿掉了嘛對不對有什麼現行法令除了機構排班計程車可與機場內營運載客外其計程車踢開頭的包含多元計程車等只能接送駕駛員配偶及五等親內的家屬啊我如果是我朋友載我去這樣就不行了"},{"start":347.403,"end":374.6,"text":"那是針對多元計程車的部分是的機場其實從民國70幾年開始就有這個排班的機制我知道從過去到現在一直都有那幾十年的時間其實我一直都在想解決的方法啦機場這個問題其實我們高雄最近也炒得很熱那我是接力部長有兩個方向部長可以去思考一個就是如何讓去的人民都坐得到車我要坐得到車你不管給我什麼車嘛我坐得到嘛"},{"start":376.276,"end":394.233,"text":"他們現在習慣叫Uber好像一叫就來他們大概可以保證他們坐得到所以Uber不能來嘛那多元計程車、排班計程車如何保證讓人民坐得到車這是第一個第二個為什麼排班計程車會不夠或不多我會說那些有的在基地有樓車多基到小巷他會有這個會有那個"},{"start":403.49,"end":404.833,"text":"一、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":409.161,"end":432.093,"text":"他現在雖然有加50塊的那個那個就是在機場搭正在50元那但是呢這一個50元如果再加上七八十元一百不到一百五十塊那輸去一定會不會賺會不會賣啦所以要如何去保障就是排班計程車它有一定的比方說擺擺擺擺擺擺兩點鐘還要再開一座保護庫還要再回來擺對"},{"start":436.837,"end":461.532,"text":"好,所以大概就這兩個角度。我也希望說機長、那個部長跟我們的公務局、民航局思考一下。就是說我排班計程車,假設啦,你去餐廳有一個滴燒對吧?我滴燒就是我在機場坐排班計程車,當然人家排了那麼久,你坐不到200塊好像很不好意思啦。比如說你有個滴燒,"},{"start":463.147,"end":483.935,"text":"阿你加50歸加50、低銷歸低銷,那也許反正我的低銷,假設低銷200啦,我是假設你們再去評估啦,我去即使你不管再到我就是差不多200塊的低銷,也許我排辦經理人會覺得說我這樣去排有計單,所以要如何讓排辦經理人車覺得他去排,"},{"start":484.957,"end":486.699,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":507.395,"end":529.844,"text":"兩邊顧忌啦那車的部分一定要確保夠因為當時要做排班計程車的目的就是希望說旅客到了要馬上有車可以坐所以用排班的機制所以你可以看部長我剛提到的高雄到馬來西亞這一條航線如果可以繼續大概這兩個問題要去思考是機場問題人民坐得到計程車排班不會說白一步貪一百塊"},{"start":532.163,"end":547.377,"text":"阿這兩個問題去思考我想把這個問題思考一下由解方當然多少那個細節你們就去衡量一下看怎麼樣比較適當我想這個問題就有機會解決當然會很辛苦尤其是油品的問題我想"},{"start":548.658,"end":562.624,"text":"中友也很辛苦啦那當然也要你現在把他想起來放著比較不然他突然倒閉你還是要處理啦所以要怎麼樣去做一個平衡點可能拜託部長再跟經濟部再協調一下好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時10分）謝謝主席，我們還是請部長，辛苦。"],["主席：好，陳部長。"],["許委員智傑：部長辛苦。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：其實剛剛雪生兄講的也不是沒有道理啦，我知道部長也很努力，我們要知道問題出在哪裡，其實馬祖航空從一開始高馬這一條線，坦白講我們也爭取了很久，當民航局說可以飛的時候，其實我真的很高興，我們真的爭取很久，終於成功了，但是我後來才知道，我以為是一直飛下去，是固定航班。"],["陳部長世凱：它是包機。"],["許委員智傑：結果後來說飛了10班以後，不是高雄的石斑魚啦，10班飛機啦！10班飛機飛了以後就停了，所以其實我們做政務官或者是行政官員在思考的點，就是說我這一趟去是什麼目的、會有多久，應該要跟人民講清楚，如果你一開始就說我們只飛10班，後續我們要看狀況評估，這樣子人民也許會覺得說那我們趕快一起努力看有沒有辦法10班以後再增加。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時其實有講清楚啦，就是10班的包機這樣，當時有……"],["許委員智傑：但是一開始宣傳的時候，其實那個要宣傳在前面，你了解我意思嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：10班要宣傳在前面，否則飛機飛在前面，然後後面才講10班，那人民會覺得有落差，所以我聽到10班的時候……我一開始也是先聽到可以飛了，真的很高興，爭取很久終於可以飛了，後來才發現10班，我心裡就愣了一下，就想說那到底後面有沒有什麼規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您那天質詢完之後，陳雪生委員也有特別質詢這個問題，所以我拜託觀光署再繼續加碼，然後讓它至少要到元旦假期。"],["許委員智傑：至少到元旦，好啦！這個就請交通部觀光署繼續努力啦！因為我那一天也看到馬祖縣政府，他們一開始第一個月他們出了500，觀光署出了100嘛！我本來想說觀光署再撐個200，他們再多撐2個月應該沒問題，所以我那時候覺得觀光署應該沒問題。"],["陳部長世凱：有這麼做。"],["許委員智傑：後來發現馬祖縣政府說我們自己準備1個月，那就很傷腦筋，當然我們現在去思考高馬這條線最大的問題、要克服的困難不是每一次的補助，而是剛才部長有提到的固定航班，固定航班其實最大的問題是油品的問題，部長應該可以去……中油把馬祖航空……因為馬祖有個叫馬祖油品，他們自己獨立的公司啦，你要叫中油去接馬祖油品，中油不想去接，因為現在都賠錢啦，你們馬祖做賠錢，要叫我去接，當然中油就不要。但是其實我講一個最極端的就是馬祖航空宣布公司結束，假設是這樣，那誰要負責保持馬祖還是有一些油？應該是中油，所以我覺得可能要拜託部長跟經濟部跟中油去溝通，這是最根本需要解決的問題，這個解決以後，我們才有機會固定航班，這是第一個問題。第二個問題剛剛雪生兄也提到的，軍中的飛機飛回來，那個也要協調，你們都自己飛，不坐那個飛機，當然你沒來人數就不夠，所以軍中我們有很多的將士兵，他們回來南部，其實不只是著眼高雄，你可以把小港機場、高雄機場想像成南高屏這樣一起思考……"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯我們是這樣思考。"],["許委員智傑：我想南高屏都會來，當然基本上高雄機場的功能絕對不是處理高雄人的問題。所以這兩個問題，我是覺得部長可以花一點心思請大家去溝通，這兩個問題解決，這個問題大概就解決啦，但是什麼時候解決，剛剛雪生兄也有提到，而我也不是部長，我也不能講什麼時候可以解決，要拜託部長，這兩個方向……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會儘量想辦法讓它的運量能夠起來，運量起來，其實固定航班就不是問題。"],["許委員智傑：對，其實我剛剛講的這兩個問題，你想辦法去解決，馬祖的問題、高馬的問題大概就解決了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以希望說部長可以再多努力一下。另外最近我們高雄機場發生了計程車排班，說去要檢查五等親以上，那個已經拿掉了嘛！對不對？有什麼現行法令，除了機構排班計程車可於機場內營運載客外，其餘計程車T開頭的，包含多元計程車等只能接送駕駛員配偶及五等親內的家屬，我如果是我朋友載我去，這樣就不行。"],["陳部長世凱：那是針對多元計程車的部分。"],["許委員智傑：是的。"],["陳部長世凱：機場其實從民國七十幾年開始就有排班的機制。"],["許委員智傑：我知道。"],["陳部長世凱：從過去到現在一直都有，幾十年的時間都是一樣。"],["許委員智傑：其實我一直都在想解決的方法，機場這個問題，其實我們高雄最近也吵得很熱，我是建議部長，有兩個方向部長可以去思考，一個就是如何讓去的人民都坐得到車，我要坐得到車，你不管給我什麼車，我要坐得到嘛！他們現在習慣叫Uber，好像一叫就來，大概可以保證他們坐得到，但現在Uber不能來嘛！那是多元計程車，排班計程車如何保證讓人民坐得到車？這是第一個。第二個，為什麼排班計程車會不夠或不多？我跟你說，有的在機場下車坐到小港，司機就一路上邊開邊罵：我排這麼久，你給我坐100塊，我還要再排一次。現在雖然有加50塊，就是在機場搭增加50元，但是這50元如果再加上7、80元，不到150塊，司機一定邊載邊罵啦！所以要如何去保障排班計程車有一定的……不要說排2小時，結果開一趟一百多塊，他又回來排。所以大概就這兩個角度，我也希望部長跟公路局、民航局思考一下，就是排班計程車，假設你去餐廳有一個低消對吧？低消就是我在機場坐排班計程車，當然人家排了那麼久，你坐不到200塊，好像很不好意思啦！比如說你有個低消，加50歸加50、低消歸低消，假設低消200，我是假設，你們再去評估，不管載到哪裡就是差不多有200塊的低消，也許排班計程車會覺得這樣去排有價值，所以要如何讓排班計程車覺得他去排還划得來、還有意願去排，那邊計程車多，人民出來一定坐得到車，這個是要保障。這兩個問題如果可以一起思考，也許這個問題就可以解決，所以在這裡跟部長拜託，這些都是長久解決之方……"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會來兩邊顧及啦！車的部分一定要確保夠，因為當時要做排班計程車的目的，就是希望旅客到了要馬上有車可以坐，所以用排班的機制。"],["許委員智傑：所以部長你可以看我剛剛提到的，高雄到馬祖這一條航線如果可以繼續，大概這兩個問題要去思考，機場問題，人民坐得到、計程車排班不會排半天賺100塊，這兩個問題去思考，把這個問題思考一下，有解方，當然多少、細節你們就去衡量一下，看怎麼樣比較適當，我想這個問題就有機會解決，當然會很辛苦，尤其是油品的問題，我想中油也很辛苦啦！你現在把它想起來放著，比較不會它突然倒閉，你還是要處理啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是、是。"],["許委員智傑：所以要怎麼樣去做一個平衡點，拜託部長再跟經濟部協調一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許委員。","接下來有請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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希望有機會來早上我找了我早上開了一個會有品公司的問題最嚴重那現在有品公司問題解決了他的保險因為一到三月份從現在到三月份他會透過另外一個方式來保險那四月份跟那個美國的債保公司還要再簽約會把這個納進去"},{"start":287.099,"end":311.618,"text":"我油品公司全國各縣市全部都是中油的,怎麼馬祖是我們馬祖縣政府代管呢?莫名其妙嘛。好,他現在也投降了。保險的問題解決了。車子、油罐車,我說我要新的。我前面跟他講要舊的,他現在沒辦法了,我說我要新的。他說舊的馬上運來,11月份就要運過去了,他速度比我快了。"},{"start":313.2,"end":339.246,"text":"還有油罐車也過去11月底也過去人員訓練大概已經訓練完成了四個人訓練完成了那現在剩下的是油料都完成以後我前天打電話給昨天打電話給中華航空公司謝董事長他說第一個油料的問題如果能夠完成第二個降落費"},{"start":341.334,"end":351.301,"text":"機場交通費如果能夠減免的話,我也打電話給何局長,何局長今天沒來。如果交通費能夠減免的話,他說固定航線他願意飛。"},{"start":352.95,"end":376.445,"text":"但是票價原來50個、70個對不對?你油料是滿的話,那只要油料是滿的話70個。他如果可以油料問題解決,可以再到70個。這個部長知道嘛。好啦,那現在新聞媒體在報導,我們馬祖的新聞很熱門。現在不是打詐嗎?跟打騙嗎?誰騙你知道?我跟縣長變成騙子了現在。這問題很嚴重,我想把部長應該也加一個進來嘛。對不對?"},{"start":382.865,"end":412.297,"text":"打騙他說11月6號飛十班飛完十班呢公共署不知道又給了幾個錢我們現在最少飛到元旦假期飛到元旦元旦就停掉你歷史劇元旦就停掉嘛最少我剛才說最少我們希望他的運量可以真的起來你講最多我不要講最少你不要講最少11月6號你看風風光光的這是馬祖年年部長沒有去有啊"},{"start":413.098,"end":416.624,"text":"部長你覺得這個風光光光的首航起飛,飛完以後"},{"start":424.878,"end":450.696,"text":"然後元旦就把他停掉,你心裡面有什麼感想?沒有,報告委員,如果我們的運量跟那個那個大家很願意去搭乘的話,旅客宿夠的話,他其實就可以一直飛下去啦,就可以一直飛下去。但是,不要一直用補貼,我們不希望一直用補貼,我們希望他真正運量可以起來,那這個部分我們一起來努力。一個縣政府、一個交通部、一個立委跟老百姓講的話,"},{"start":452.518,"end":465.019,"text":"人家如果當我們在放屁的話你說說看你說說看我們飛這個高雄馬祖航線只是飛兩個月飛起來跟紙做的滑翔機一樣飛起來好玩的"},{"start":466.052,"end":482.769,"text":"不是這樣嘛 是不是這政策欸當時一開始的時候那個時候應該就對外講是時斑嘛那我們也讓它延長可以至少到元旦假期那我們這段時間也在努力希望跟高雄的那邊的觀光業者大家一起來合作去找客源有啊 陳金邁市場"},{"start":484.33,"end":512.18,"text":"再來也會幫忙他說他會有配套那我們希望這個可以讓他運量上來之後一直延續下去這個錢不是什麼縣政府、高雄市政府、觀光署去給錢沒道理嘛交通的便利、行政安全這交通部你本來就要負起主要責任嘛是不是怎麼扯到縣政府勒哪一個你看那個臺北市有管那個民航有管那個松山機場嗎桃園市政府有管那個桃園機場嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":513.991,"end":535.866,"text":"這廉價限制怎麼會扯進去管這個事情呢?這行政便利的問題啊。這樣好不好?元貸嘛,包機至少嘛。但是你給我承諾,不能停。因為油的問題,油米公司要解決了。中油要解決了。油罐車啊、訓練啊、車輛啊、保險啊,全部都解決了。"},{"start":540.97,"end":562.105,"text":"那謝董也跟我講,如果這個油料的問題能夠解決,還有降落費能夠減免,他願意飛,他也願意了,那剩下就交通部啦,不是啊?你跟我講...如果華航或華信可以不用補貼的方式願意飛那當然很好啊但是他油料要解決啊"},{"start":563.292,"end":591.984,"text":"郵料不是委員剛剛說您已經有努力現在中郵也不是我管的你是中央政府我這裡是立法院我管不了他們是不是我沒有行政權郵料我們來跟他們行政權是你們你們要去主動去溝通怎麼是我在這邊我不講話就沒事我一講話就來了你看我今天上午主持一個會議我有點生氣了火爆三丈全部都OK了"},{"start":593.203,"end":618.177,"text":"那我不出面的話全部都躲起來了怎麼這樣子勒,我們政府做事情不是這樣子吧是不是,部長11月6號包機起飛高雄到馬祖航線元旦我不管,你不管,因為你公務很忙啦底下民航局不管,公安署不管,不就停擺啦擺明就是擺爛啦是不是,然後我們都被打成詐騙集團"},{"start":620.114,"end":643.182,"text":"我們是最大宗的,不好吧?交通部會幹這種事嗎?你說,你當個部長。我們來努力讓它持續飛下去。不是努力啊,這一定要做的嘛,還努力。我們現在正在努力齁,跟旅行業者大家一起合作攬客,我們希望多一些客人,那未來當然有商機的時候,航空公司必然會一直飛。現然也跟蔡某總長講了,跟蔡某總長,沒什麼要講了。"},{"start":646.926,"end":665.258,"text":"他們部隊裡面,將來也鼓勵阿兵哥坐飛機。如果是部隊也可以達成而且有優惠的話,其實這個是蠻好的。是是是。欸,召委你先坐下來沒關係啦,不要急。部長你答應我好不好,不要停。"},{"start":667.423,"end":692.957,"text":"我很希望他可以持續飛下去我後面還有許智傑委員欸你走的巧好了我很希望他持續飛下去許智傑委員還會問你喔我那天前幾天去高雄連其邁市長都有在跟我講這件事表示高雄也很在乎這個航線那我們也很希望他能夠持續飛下去那個其邁是現任市長嘛下一任許智傑委員虎視眈眈的許智傑委員你要努力一下我下去沒關係好不好我稍等一下兩分鐘沒關係剩下你要幫我講講話"},{"start":696.175,"end":723.254,"text":"因為藍綠都幫忙一下嘛這個我們一起來努力部長很難看啦元旦如果真的沒飛很難看啦有啦一定會飛到元旦不只是我難看縣政府難看你也很難看什麼至少什麼至少一定要飛下去好不好對啊我們現在努力讓他一直飛下去又努力不努力不行我們現在沒有在努力嗎我努力那麼久了他們還說我騙委員在努力我們也在努力"},{"start":724.619,"end":744.446,"text":"一起努力,一定不能停好不好?不然你講個話嘛,一定不要停。你講個話。這句話你都不敢講,我來當部長好了。是不是?我們努力讓他一直飛下去啦。我們現在真的一直在想辦法,那我永遠一直在努力當中。這件事情非做不可。"},{"start":747.546,"end":757.221,"text":"我跟你講,如果元旦以後真的停掉了,我辭立委你辭部長好不好?"},{"start":758.459,"end":785.71,"text":"我立委辭掉你部長辭掉我們一起打個賭一起幹這件事情我們兩個一起幹好不好我把立委辭掉啊我們一起努力啦又一起努力一定要完成好不好 送你五個字一定要完成固定航線好不好是是是召委對不起啊 又請你坐下你可以站起來了我現在下去齁那請許志杰先生上台講話好 謝謝"},{"start":790.165,"end":790.367,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時57分）謝謝主席。請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳委員雪生：部長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖大橋的進度如何？"],["陳部長世凱：目前還沒有送到我們部裡面。"],["陳委員雪生：還沒有什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：行政院還沒有回到我們這邊。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，我有再去問行政院的進度，因為上次跟委員報告國發會的規劃評估報告已經送到行政院秘書長那邊，剛剛我有再跟院裡面問一下最新的進度，院那邊是把國發會的評估報告先存掉，並沒有……"],["陳委員雪生：你問院裡面的誰？"],["陳局長文瑞：我問交環處處長。"],["陳委員雪生：他怎麼說？"],["陳局長文瑞：就是把國發會的評估報告文存，基本上，就是並沒有再要求交通部做相關回應。"],["陳委員雪生：他已經要求8次、10次、20次了，還要求什麼？"],["陳局長文瑞：不過他們……"],["陳委員雪生：還要求什麼？我打電話給龔秘書長，他說不知道、沒看到，這個案子不是送到行政院秘書長那裡再分派下去嗎？你們要去問，你們如果連問都不問，我每個禮拜盯進度。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，局長剛才的回答，就是他有問了。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我年齡有點大了，時間很短、不夠用，拜託一下，好不好？你不是說幫我問嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你有一天回來，不是說跟總統要見面？"],["陳部長世凱：我們其實都有問。"],["陳委員雪生：總統有沒有說什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：我沒有跟總統問這件事。"],["陳委員雪生：總要講話，不能拖！"],["陳部長世凱：有跟院問這件事，目前就是在秘書長那邊。"],["陳委員雪生：拖！一直在拖，到底做還是不做？乾脆一點，是不是？"],["陳局長文瑞：因為院沒有再給我們新的意見的話，基本上，就回到112年的……"],["陳委員雪生：局長，你每個禮拜給我回報一次，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳委員雪生：我每個禮拜追，追到下一次總質詢，我還會問，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：反正部長你有來，我都會問啦！我不問不行啊，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我知道。這個對於馬祖……"],["陳委員雪生：我不曉得我還能活多久，拜託了，好不好？你很年輕耶！我們兩個年齡不一樣，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：您可以活很久，您可以「呷百二」。"],["陳委員雪生：好。開車碰到人行道，我們要停下來嘛！行人在那邊打電話、聊天，你看怎麼樣？打情罵俏的……"],["陳部長世凱：行人過馬路也應該要專心過馬路，也要遵守……"],["陳委員雪生：就嘴巴講一講，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：如果是看手機，這個是有罰則的。"],["陳委員雪生：局長，如果有機會，你修個什麼行人穿越法，行人穿越不用守規則嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：行人在道路交通管理處罰條例也有相關的規範。"],["陳委員雪生：我們要守規矩，沒有錯。開車看到行人，我當然要禮讓、我要等嘛！我好不容易等到綠燈，等到一個綠燈以後，行人在那邊拖拖拉拉的，那邊來、這邊去，我們車子不要開了，對不對？馬路……"],["陳部長世凱：行人的部分也有罰則，他如果看手機的話，可以罰500塊。"],["陳委員雪生：行人有罰則嗎？說明一下。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，應該是在第七十八條裡面，如果行人穿越馬路時在嬉戲或相關的情形是罰500元。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有，我們尊重行人，當然開車的人尊重他嘛！你看前幾天，前面一個公車、後面一個公車，追撞一下就死亡了，好不好？這都是問題啦！","我現在接續要問高雄─馬祖航線，誰關心啊？我看國民黨裡面只有我一個人關心，民進黨只有一個誰？許智傑委員，正好他坐在下面。許委員，謝謝你啦！那天因為甲動你沒有到馬祖來喔！黃牛了，好不好？不過下次希望有機會來。我早上開一個會，油品公司的問題最嚴重，現在油品公司問題解決了，從現在到3月份，它會透過另外一個方式來保險，4月份跟美國再保公司還要再簽約，會把這個納進去，油品公司全國各縣市全部都是中油的，怎麼在馬祖是馬祖縣政府在管呢？莫名其妙嘛！好，它現在也投降了，保險的問題解決了，我說我要新的油罐車，我前面跟它講要舊的，它現在沒辦法了，我說我要新的，它說舊的馬上運來，11月份就要運過去了，它速度比我快啦！還有在11月底油罐車也過去，人員訓練大概已經訓練完成了，4個人訓練完成了，油料都完成以後，我昨天打電話給中華航空公司謝董事長，他說第一個油料的問題如果能夠完成，第二個機場降落費如果能夠減免，後來我又打電話給何局長，何局長今天沒來，如果降落費能夠減免的話，他說固定航線他願意飛，但是票價原來70個，對不對？油料是滿的話，70個，現在……"],["陳部長世凱：如果油料的問題解決了，可以載到70個。"],["陳委員雪生：這個部長知道嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：好啦！現在新聞媒體在報導，我們馬祖的新聞很熱門，現在不是打詐跟打騙，你知道誰騙嗎？我跟縣長現在變成騙子了，這個問題很嚴重了，我想部長也應該要加進來，對不對？打騙……"],["陳部長世凱：我為什麼會變成騙子？"],["陳委員雪生：他說11月6號飛10班，飛完10班，觀光署不知道又給了幾個錢啦！"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在最少飛到元旦假期。"],["陳委員雪生：飛到元旦，你的意思是元旦就停掉嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：不是，我剛才是說最少，我們希望它的運量可以真的起來，不要都靠補貼。"],["陳委員雪生：你講最多好不好？你不要講最少。11月6號，你看風風光光的，這次去馬祖，那天部長沒有去？"],["陳部長世凱：有啊！我在裡面。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有吧？"],["陳部長世凱：有啦！有啦！"],["陳委員雪生：有、有、有，不好意思。部長，你覺得風風光光的首航起飛，當飛完以後，元旦就把它停掉，你心裡面有什麼感想？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果我們的運量跟大家很願意去搭乘、旅客數夠，其實就可以一直飛下去啦！"],["陳委員雪生：這個沒問題啦！你看一個縣政府……"],["陳部長世凱：但不要一直用補貼，我們不希望一直用補貼，我們希望它運量可以真正起來，這個部分我們一起來努力。"],["陳委員雪生：一個縣政府、一個交通部、一個立委跟老百姓講的話，如果人家當我們在放屁的話，你說說看、你說說看，高雄─馬祖航線只飛兩個月，跟紙做的滑翔機一樣，飛起來好玩的，不是這樣嘛，是不是？這是政策耶！"],["陳部長世凱：當時一開始的時候，應該就對外講是10班，我們也讓它延長，至少可以到元旦假期，這段時間我們也在努力，希望跟高雄的觀光業者大家一起來合作去找客源，如果客源足……"],["陳委員雪生：有啊！陳其邁市長當然也會幫忙啊！他說會有配套。"],["陳部長世凱：陳其邁市長也很幫忙，我們希望可以讓它運量上來之後，一直延續下去，這個是很好的航班。"],["陳委員雪生：這個錢不是什麼縣政府、高雄市政府、觀光署去給錢，沒道理嘛！交通便利、行的安全，交通部本來就要負起主要的責任嘛，是不是？怎麼會扯到縣政府呢？你看臺北市有管松山機場嗎？桃園市政府有管桃園機場嗎？沒有嘛！連江縣政府怎麼會扯進去，而去管這個事情呢？這是行的便利的問題啊！這樣好不好，至少包機到元旦，但是你給我承諾不能停，因為油的問題油品公司要解決了，中油要解決了，油罐車、訓練、車輛、保險等全部都解決了。謝董也跟我講如果油料問題能夠解決，還有降落費能夠減免，他願意飛，他也願意了，那剩下就是交通部啦！部長，你跟我講……"],["陳部長世凱：如果華航或華信可以不用補貼的方式願意飛，那當然很好啊……"],["陳委員雪生：但是油料要解決啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對，油料不是委員剛剛說的，您已經有努力解決。"],["陳委員雪生：現在中油也不是我管的，你是中央政府耶！這裡是立法院，我管不了他們，是不是？我沒有行政權耶！"],["陳部長世凱：油料我們來跟經濟部溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：行政權是你們，你們要主動去溝通，怎麼是我在那邊處理呢？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我不講話就沒事，我一講話就來了。你看我今天上午主持了一個會議，我有點生氣了，火冒三丈啊！結果全部都OK啦！但我不出面的話，全部都躲起來了，怎麼這樣子呢？我們政府做事情不是這樣子吧，是不是？部長，11月6號包機起飛高雄到馬祖航線，元旦我不管、你不管，因為你公務很忙，底下民航局不管、觀光署不管，不就停擺啦！擺明就是擺爛啊！是不是？我們都被打成詐騙集團，我們是最大宗的，不好吧！交通部會幹這種事嗎？你當個部長，你說。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力讓它持續飛下去。"],["陳委員雪生：不是努力啊！這一定要做的嘛！還努力？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在正在努力跟旅行業者大家一起合作攬客，我們希望多一些客人，未來當然有商機的時候，航空公司必然會一直飛。"],["陳委員雪生：縣長也跟梅參謀總長講了，在部隊裡面將來也鼓勵阿兵哥坐飛機。"],["陳部長世凱：如果是部隊也可以搭乘，而且有優惠的話，其實這個是滿好的。"],["陳委員雪生：是。召委，你先坐下來，沒關係啊！不要急。部長，你答應我不要停，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我很希望它可以持續……"],["陳委員雪生：我後面還有許智傑委員，你走著瞧好了，許智傑委員還會問你喔！"],["陳部長世凱：我很希望它持續飛下去，我前幾天去高雄，連其邁市長都有在跟我講這件事……"],["陳委員雪生：有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：表示高雄也很在乎這個航線，我們也很希望它能夠持續飛下去。"],["陳委員雪生：對嘛！其邁是現任市長，下一任許智傑委員虎視眈眈的。許智傑委員，你要努力一下喔！我下去沒關係，好不好？我少講兩分鐘沒關係……"],["陳部長世凱：這個議題我們一起來努力。"],["陳委員雪生：剩下的你要幫我講講話，因為藍綠都幫忙一下嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們一起來努力。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，很難看啦！元旦如果真的沒飛了，很難看啦！"],["陳部長世凱：有啦！一定會飛到元旦。"],["陳委員雪生：不只是我難看、縣政府難看，你也很難看，什麼至少，一定要飛下去，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：對啊！我們現在努力讓它一直飛下去。"],["陳委員雪生：又努力？"],["陳部長世凱：不努力不行，這個議題……"],["陳委員雪生：我們現在沒有在努力嗎？我努力那麼久了，他們還說我騙。"],["陳部長世凱：委員在努力，我們也在努力。"],["陳委員雪生：一起努力，一定不能停，好不好？你講個話，一定不要停！"],["陳部長世凱：我們也要看它的運量。"],["陳委員雪生：連這句話你都不敢講，我來當部長好了，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：我們努力讓它一直飛下去啦！我們現在真的一直在想辦法，委員也一直在努力當中。"],["陳委員雪生：這件事情非做不可，我跟你講下臺……對不起，我不是講下臺，如果元旦以後真的停掉了，我辭立委、你辭部長，好不好？我立委辭掉，你部長辭掉，我們一起打個賭、一起幹……"],["陳部長世凱：辭部長事小，辭立委事情比較嚴重……"],["陳委員雪生：這件事情我們兩個一起幹，好不好？我把立委辭掉啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們一起努力啦！"],["陳委員雪生：又一起努力？一定要完成，好不好？送你5個字，一定要完成固定航線，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是、是、是。"],["陳委員雪生：召委對不起，又請你坐下，你可以站起來了，我現在下去。請許智傑先生上台講話。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來有請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":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Deepfake危及國家安全要去訂因應的SOP那個時候應該是陳明通在立法院說的然後到了"},{"start":55.697,"end":78.769,"text":"今年的時候,你們在10月31號的書面報告說有會大量的製造深偽的影片,杜撰錯假的訊息我今天看到了我們主要負責的一個是調查局,一個是內政部警政署我先請教一下我們的內政部警政署"},{"start":80.578,"end":96.597,"text":"你們在報告裡面的第二頁到第三頁說在2022年7月5號的時候,最高檢察署檢察總長召開的這個會議當中,那包括你們跟調查局是主要的檢測機關嗎?"},{"start":98.666,"end":126.199,"text":"那你們說刑事警察局除了可以檢測真偽,也可以依照個案偵查其來源IP位置,也可以溯源偵辦?是的那你們刑事警察局真的可以檢驗真偽嗎?我們有相關的一個軟體,跟報告員我們有相關的一個檢測軟體來可以做相關的一個檢驗能力如何?當然他沒辦法百分之百,但我們可以再就他的實質內容沒辦法百分之百,那個軟體花多少錢?"},{"start":128.135,"end":142.434,"text":"我們是花了一千...兩個軟體大概一千萬兩個軟體大概一千萬兩個軟體一千萬是的花了一千萬的軟體辨別的能力現在有到幾%我請我們柯市長回答"},{"start":144.412,"end":170.379,"text":"報告委員因為AI的檢測本來就有一定的限制這我理解那我們跟調查局其實是有共同討論出來我們檢測的流程跟標準那根據這兩個軟體還有一些開源軟體以及我們去做一些事後的判斷所以有一套的檢測的方式來做檢測那我們不敢講說百分之百能夠檢驗的出來但是這一套的檢驗是經過大概百分之多少"},{"start":172.679,"end":191.545,"text":"我們有信心可以達到百分之九十五以上百分之九十五以上是,那有一些會有一些限制,譬如說影像沒有關係啊,我們等一下就你們遇到的限制再進一步討論因為深偽對台灣國家安全造成非常嚴重的影響"},{"start":192.796,"end":216.576,"text":"特別是如果老共拿來介入我們國家國內的事務這正是對我們的國家安全造成非常嚴重的威脅所以為什麼會排這樣子的專案報告我們就要深入的去了解我們被滲透的有多嚴重老共到底是怎麼搞的具體的案子現在處理的狀況到什麼樣子"},{"start":217.762,"end":243.865,"text":"你們在報告裡面講說從112年到113年10月辦理檢測的案件11件3件是總統、副總統選舉罷免法相關的案件其他的8件是刑事案件這11個案件都甄解了嗎?有些案件是送件單位那我沒有瞭解說他地檢署那邊甄解了沒?可以去追溯一下嗎?"},{"start":244.946,"end":262.978,"text":"我們可以了解這11個案件裡面偵查的情形因為吼你們已經標定11個案件出來了嘛這11個案件我們是有順利的抓到這些為非作歹做這種可惡至極的歹徒"},{"start":264.302,"end":288.826,"text":"還是雷聲大雨點小?一點結果都沒有?這個國人會很關心啊可能在分散各個地檢署他們最後處理終結的情況是怎麼樣?刑事警察局也未必清楚嗎?調查局也未必清楚嗎?那但是我覺得總是要有個單位把這個資料都彙整以後跟大家做說明這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":290.165,"end":314.368,"text":"高委員我們會清查偵查的情形對偵查不公開的就不公開嘛還沒有偵截就還沒有偵截嘛那偵截了以後最後的結果是怎麼樣是簽截是不起訴還是起訴這牽涉到你們前面花了這麼多時間做這麼辛苦的工作總要有個結果出來嘛"},{"start":315.325,"end":331.529,"text":"要不然我們花這麼多錢買這些設備你們也去做檢測了結果最後的結果是什麼大家不知道案件偵辦到哪裡大家都不知道我相信啊我們在面對國家安全威脅這麼嚴肅的課題啊絕對不能虎頭蛇尾啊贊不贊成"},{"start":338.131,"end":349.281,"text":"有關後續的一個偵檢起訴或是審判提醒我們會來做一個了解好具體的請教這個是深偽造假還是中共借血這個鑑定出來沒有"},{"start":353.243,"end":370.135,"text":"報告委員這個案件是當時是我們新北市調查處受理的那也在新北地檢細數了那我們在鑑識的結果也移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢的處理當中目前還在偵查當中嗎是的所以這是不是造假的"},{"start":373.288,"end":400.113,"text":"我們的鑑定結果已經送到地檢了所以要由地檢他們那邊有地檢來加以說明嘛現在還在細數還沒有真解嘛OK 好當事人說啊這個是深偽造假調查局說要尊重當事人的意願嘛所以不能公布結果嘛這我也尊重啊但問題是這已經不是個人的問題啦這是國家安全的問題耶"},{"start":402.111,"end":424.098,"text":"這如果是中共借選的話可以辦到今天都沒有結果嗎?新北地檢還要辦多久?調查局知不知道?報告委員我們會和新北地檢請新北市調查處和新北地檢先做一些溝通協調然後如果有進步情形再和委員報告這個案子拖很久了嘛當事人都站出來控訴啦"},{"start":425.882,"end":448.22,"text":"這中共借選啊知識體大非常嚴重啊絕對不能虎頭蛇尾啊剛剛大家都贊成不能虎頭蛇尾嘛這麼嚴肅的事情絕對要把它查清楚啊是不是真的是中共借選是不是真的是身為偽造這要給社會大眾一個交代啊贊成嗎?負局長你贊成嗎?大家就等著啊"},{"start":453.427,"end":480.625,"text":"到底是哪個單位這麼可惡啊那不是只有影像的問題啊還有錄音檔的問題啊這位之前的前立委說啊他連錄音檔都被變造啊他要求的是什麼他要求的是說這是明顯的境外借權的作為期待國安及司法單位迅速處理啊來先請國安單位"},{"start":483.448,"end":499.398,"text":"現在處理的進度如何?報告委員這個部分我們是交給那個司法機關在調查當中所以跟國安單位沒有關係喔?我們只要影響國安跟涉案的我們都會持續的駐收"},{"start":502.168,"end":525.482,"text":"你說影響到國安的你們都會怎麼樣?我們會去了解這樣的一個案情提供給相關單位來爭取那目前你們了解的狀況怎麼樣?因為這個案子還在司法調查當中這我們要尊重司法機關的調查所以跟國安單位沒有關係嗎?我剛剛提到只要是會影響國安跟涉案的這個案子你覺得有沒有影響到國安?您覺得有沒有影響到國安?"},{"start":535.73,"end":548.177,"text":"對,這個部分我們還是要尊重這個司法警察機關的一個...我了解嘛,所以國安單位的立場就是說這個國安單位沒有關係,要尊重檢調嘛,是吧?所以呼籲國安單位是呼籲錯的對象,是不是這樣?"},{"start":550.299,"end":552.02,"text":"所以從國安單位的立場來講就是要等事法檢調機關嗎?"},{"start":570.114,"end":593.83,"text":"是嗎?因為他已經在進行當中啊所以這個部分我們還是要尊重司法檢調局嘛沒有關係啦那你就講嘛說這個國安單位在司法檢調有結果出來以前跟我們沒有關係這樣一句話不就講完了我有說錯嗎?我不是說沒有關係那你覺得有關係?我們要尊重不是我們要尊重這個司法檢調局當然要尊重司法檢調嘛來刑事警察局委員好這個殷檔刑事警察局有沒有鑑定?"},{"start":601.371,"end":628.79,"text":"報告委員這不是我們負責鑑定的好來調查局報告委員這個案子是我們調查局做的鑑定鑑定結果出來沒有鑑定結果已經送到臺北地檢了這個案子是臺北地檢上一個案子是新北地檢現在兩個案子都還在細數嗎那可能再請調查局請新北地檢還有臺北地檢的同仁大家都很辛苦多努力一點"},{"start":631.992,"end":657.677,"text":"當事人都已經指控了這老共借選欸介入我們的選舉欸多嚴重的事情啊這麼嚴重的事情辦到現在都還辦不出來喔是能力有問題還是決心有問題副局長你覺得呢案子在新北地檢跟台北地檢你們該做的鑑定都做完了嘛希望也利用這個機會喔"},{"start":659.864,"end":687.578,"text":"調查局跟臺北地檢講跟新北地檢講當事人指控這麼明確這中共借選影像也是偽造的、陰檔也是偽造的那是不是偽造的只有你們知道嘛但你們也不方便講那全體國人就只好等啊等臺北地檢跟新北地檢給大家一個交代啊否則這麼嚴重的事情可以用霍西尼的喔霍西尼混一混就過去喔"},{"start":689.427,"end":714.547,"text":"這牽涉到國家安全的問題耶剛剛大家都同意這很嚴重嘛不能虎頭蛇尾嘛一定要水落石出嘛但看起來今天來做專案報告的這三個單位國安局是要尊重檢調嘛阿調查局你們的結果跟台北地檢想台北地檢不說你們也沒辦法說所以到底是不是偽造變造的"},{"start":716.055,"end":722.02,"text":"到底是誰搞的?到目前為止關心這件事情的全體國人都沒有一個答案嗎?是嗎?是、是不是?"},{"start":729.178,"end":730.919,"text":"這牽涉到國家安全你認為有沒有跟國人說明的必要"},{"start":756.892,"end":779.987,"text":"您覺得有沒有認為跟國人說明的必要我個人認為如果這個案子告一段落當然是有需要對國人做一個說明好 非常好再麻煩調查局分別跟新北地檢還有台北地檢講這事情很重要啊攸關國家安全啊結果是什麼大家都要等他們出來跟國人做說明啊好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時17分）謝謝召委。國安局局長走了嘛，對不對？"],["主席：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那麻煩請副局長、法務部調查局副局長，以及內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，時間的關係，就不一一問候。今天我們在處理有關深偽以及錯假訊息對我們國家安全的影響及因應，這是一個非常嚴肅的課題，之前在2021年時，當時國安局就表示AI Deepfake危及國家安全，要訂定因應的SOP，那個時候應該是陳明通在立法院說的。到了今年，你們在10月31號的書面報告裡提到有大量的深偽製造的影片以及杜撰錯假訊息。今天我看到我們主要負責的單位，一個是調查局，一個是內政部警政署，首先先請教內政部警政署，你們的報告第2頁到第3頁提到2022年7月5號，在最高檢察署檢察總長召開的會議中，提到包括你們跟調查局是主要檢測機關，你們表示刑事警察局除了可以檢測真偽，也可以依照個案偵查其來源IP位置及溯源偵辦，是不是？"],["林副局長信雄：嗯，是的。"],["黃委員國昌：你們刑事警察局真的可以檢驗真偽嗎？"],["林副局長信雄：我們有一個檢測軟體可以做相關的檢驗。"],["黃委員國昌：能力如何？"],["林副局長信雄：當然沒有辦法百分之百，但我們可以再就它的實質內容……"],["黃委員國昌：沒辦法百分之百，那個軟體花多少錢？"],["林副局長信雄：兩個軟體大概1,000萬。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個軟體1,000萬？"],["林副局長信雄：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：花了1,000萬的軟體，辨別的能力現在到多少百分比？"],["林副局長信雄：我請科制中心回答。"],["林主任建隆：報告委員，AI檢測本來就有一定限制……"],["黃委員國昌：這我了解。"],["林主任建隆：我們跟調查局其實是有共同討論出檢測的流程和標準，根據這兩個軟體，還有一些開源軟體，以及我們做的一些事後判斷，訂定了一套檢測方式，我們不敢說百分之百能夠檢驗出來，但這一套檢驗是經過……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，大概百分之多少？"],["林主任建隆：我們有信心可以達到95%以上。"],["黃委員國昌：95%以上？"],["林主任建隆：是，但會有一些限制，譬如影像……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我們等一下再就你們遇到的限制進一步討論，因為深偽對臺灣國家安全造成非常嚴重的影響，特別是如果老共拿來介入我們國家國內的事務，這會對我們國家安全造成非常嚴重的威脅，所以今天為什麼要排這樣的專案報告，就是要深入了解我們被滲透的情形有多嚴重、老共到底是怎麼搞的，以及具體的案子現在處理的狀況。你們在報告裡面提到從112年到113年10月，辦理檢測的案件11件，3件是總統副總統選舉罷免法相關案件，其他8件是刑事案件，請問這11個案件都偵結了嗎？"],["林主任建隆：有些案件是送鑑單位，我們沒有去了解地檢署偵結了沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：可以去追溯一下嗎？"],["林主任建隆：我們可以去了解這11個案件的偵查情形。"],["黃委員國昌：因為你們已經標的11個案件出來，針對這11個案件，我們有順利抓到這些為非作歹、可惡至極的歹徒，還是雷聲大雨點小，一點結果都沒有？這個國人會很關心，可能分散在各個地檢署，最後處理終結的情況怎麼樣，刑事警察局未必清楚，調查局也未必清楚，但我覺得總是要有個單位把這些資料彙整後跟大家說明，這樣可以嗎？"],["林主任建隆：報告委員，我們會清查偵查的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：對，偵查不公開的就不公開，還沒有偵結就還沒有偵結，如果偵結了後，最後結果怎麼樣，是簽結、不起訴，還是起訴，這牽涉到你們前面花了這麼多時間、這麼辛苦的工作，總要有個結果出來，要不然我們花這麼多錢買這些設備，你們也去檢測了，結果最後的結果是什麼大家都不知道，案件偵辦到哪裡大家也不知道，我相信我們在面對國家安全威脅這麼嚴肅的課題時，絕對不能虎頭蛇尾，贊不贊成？"],["林副局長信雄：是，有關後續偵結起訴或審判情形，我們會做個了解。"],["黃委員國昌：好，具體的請教，這個是深偽造假，還是中共介選？鑑定出來沒有？"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，這個案件當時是新北市調查處受理的，在新北地檢繫屬，我們鑑識的結果也移送到新北地檢，所以目前這個案子在新北地檢處理當中。"],["黃委員國昌：目前還在偵查當中？"],["吳副局長富梅：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這是不是造假的？"],["吳副局長富梅：我們鑑定的結果已經送到地檢，所以要由地檢他們……"],["黃委員國昌：由地檢加以說明，現在還在繫屬，還沒有偵結？"],["吳副局長富梅：是，還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，當事人說這個是深偽造假，調查局說要尊重當事人的意願，所以不能公布結果，這我也尊重，但問題是這已經不是個人問題，這是國家安全的問題，如果是中共介選的話，可以辦到今天都沒有結果嗎？新北地檢還要辦多久，調查局知不知道？"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，我們會請新北市調查處和新北地檢先做一些溝通、協調，如果有進一步情形，再和委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：這案子拖很久了，當事人都站出來控訴是中共介選，茲事體大，非常嚴重啊！絕對不能虎頭蛇尾。剛剛大家都贊成不能虎頭蛇尾，這麼嚴肅的事情，絕對要查清楚，是不是真的是中共介選、是不是真的是深偽偽造，這要給社會大眾一個交代，贊成嗎？"],["吳副局長富梅：贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：副局長，你贊成嗎？大家都等著啊！到底是哪個單位這麼可惡，不是只有影像的問題，還有錄音檔的問題，這位前立委說連錄音檔都被變造，他要求的是什麼？他要求的是這明顯是境外介選的作為，期待國安及司法單位迅速處理。來！先請國安單位，現在處理的進度如何？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，這個部分我們是交給司法機關在調查當中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以跟國安單位沒有關係？"],["張副局長元斌：只要影響國安跟社安，我們都會持續注蒐，而這個案子，因為在司法……"],["黃委員國昌：你說影響到國安的，你們都會怎麼樣？"],["張副局長元斌：我們會去了解案情，提供給相關單位偵處。"],["黃委員國昌：目前你們了解的狀況怎麼樣？"],["張副局長元斌：因為這個案子還在司法調查當中，所以我們要尊重司法機關的調查。"],["黃委員國昌：所以跟國安單位沒有關係？"],["張副局長元斌：我剛剛提到，只要會影響國安跟社安的……"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子，你覺得有沒有影響到國安？你覺得有沒有影響到國安？"],["張副局長元斌：對，這個部分我們還是要尊重司法檢察機關的調查。"],["黃委員國昌：我了解，所以國安單位的立場就是這個跟國安單位沒有關係，要尊重檢調嘛！是吧？所以呼籲國安單位是呼籲錯的對象，是不是這樣？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，我們不能就個案去做評估，因為它已經進到司法程序，但是我們的職責會去掌蒐這些偵訊，或者是影響國家安全跟社會安定的過程……"],["黃委員國昌：所以從國安單位的立場來講，就是要等司法檢調機關，是嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：因為它已經在進行當中，所以這個部分我們還是要尊重司法……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！那你就講嘛！國安單位在司法檢調有結果出來以前，跟你們沒有關係，這樣一句話不就講完了！我有說錯嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：我不是說沒有關係。"],["黃委員國昌：那你覺得有關係？"],["張副局長元斌：不是，我們要尊重司法……"],["黃委員國昌：當然要尊重司法檢調嘛！來！刑事警察局。"],["林副局長信雄：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：這個音檔刑事警察局有沒有鑑定？"],["林副局長信雄：報告委員，這不是我們負責鑑定的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，調查局。"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，這個案子是我們調查局做的鑑定……"],["黃委員國昌：鑑定結果出來了沒有？"],["吳副局長富梅：鑑定結果已經送到臺北地檢了。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子是臺北地檢，上一個案子是新北地檢，現在兩個案子都還在繫屬嗎？"],["吳副局長富梅：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那可能要請調查局請新北地檢還有臺北地檢的同仁，大家都很辛苦，多努力一點，當事人都已經指控這是老共介選、介入我們的選舉，多嚴重的事情啊！這麼嚴重的事情，辦到現在都還辦不出來，是能力有問題，還是決心有問題？副局長，你覺得呢？"],["吳副局長富梅：案子在新北地檢跟臺北地檢，我個人……"],["黃委員國昌：你們該做的鑑定都做完了？"],["吳副局長富梅：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：希望也利用這個機會，調查局跟臺北地檢、新北地檢講，當事人指控這麼明確，表示這是中共介選，影像是偽造的，音檔也是偽造的，但是不是偽造，只有你們知道，但你們不方便講，那全體國人就只好等，等臺北地檢跟新北地檢給大家一個交代，否則這麼嚴重的事情，可以和稀泥嗎？和稀泥混一混就過去？這牽涉到國家安全的問題，剛剛大家都同意這很嚴重，不能虎頭蛇尾，一定要水落石出，但看起來今天來做專案報告的這三個單位，國安局說要尊重檢調，調查局說你們的結果跟臺北地檢講了，如果臺北地檢不說，你們也沒辦法說，所以到底是不是偽造、變造，到底是誰搞的，到目前為止，關心這件事情的全體國人都沒有一個答案，是嗎？是不是？你不要笑嘛！你憋著笑，這很嚴肅的問題……"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：我是很嚴肅的態度在請教你啊！"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，我剛剛也回答了，這個案子有繫屬的地檢，當然要由地檢視最後查處的狀況，覺得有對國人說明的必要，由他們來出面說明，不應該由調查局出面，我們也是一個偵查的……"],["黃委員國昌：這牽涉到國家安全，你認為有沒有跟國人說明的必要？你覺得有沒有跟國人說明的必要？"],["吳副局長富梅：我個人認為如果案子告一段落，當然有需要對國人做個說明。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常好，再麻煩調查局分別跟新北地檢，還有臺北地檢講，這件事情很重要，攸關國家安全，結果是什麼，大家都在等他們出來跟國人說明。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有王定宇委員、林楚茵委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}},{"id":"157042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e8767a46902f94463b6dc7cef15d9be6ba6e2d913a09c00f96f96ef8369fd87006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:19:34 - 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的屋頂型的我們是鼓勵的對就是說它本身的那個狗舍或是什麼它的屋頂型我們還是鼓勵的對阿如果是那一種那開放型的呢開放型的就是你沒有屋頂阿那我們基本上我感覺這個可以討論就是說因為大部分都找不到地你就把旁邊用網子圍起來阿也是一樣都可以讓它放在那裡"},{"start":525.194,"end":552.819,"text":"對啦 這個我們來評估啦第二個就是說事實上你們應該要針對餵養流浪狗的人要開罰我一直希望說就是禁止在特定的區域禁止餵養應該有罰則啦有罰則就沒有用啦 是啦是啦因為流浪狗很大的問題第一是有人餵養牠第二個如果是在養殖地區的話那個流浪狗自己會去抓魚耶 那很厲害耶"},{"start":553.899,"end":580.691,"text":"議員："}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1164,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時19分）謝謝主席，是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，上次我跟你強調過漁業署的預算，我上次是講捕撈漁業，現在來講養殖漁業。養殖漁業值得我們政府投入更多預算，來強化我們國內的養殖漁業，所以在2021年的時候，有一個四年87億要產業轉型的相關計畫，這個四年在今年是最後一年嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在114到117年應該還有一個……"],["王代理署長正芳：第二期計畫已經通過了。"],["蔡委員易餘：還有第二期計畫？"],["王代理署長正芳：對。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以未來還是有類似這樣在養殖漁業的一個……"],["陳部長駿季：應該有88億。"],["蔡委員易餘：有一個計畫嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：在漁業署總預算裡面。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，在這樣的總預算裡面，基本上它做了一些工作，包括漁電共生，包括養殖專區，包括供水系統，其中供水系統，我們在義竹本來有要做伏流水去供給養殖，讓他們有乾淨的水源，就是淡水供應系統，這個淡水對於養殖非常重要，因為養殖雖然是需要鹽水，不過主要還是需要淡水的供應。但是在義竹這邊，地方卻不斷在傳出用伏流水會造成地層下陷，造成地層下陷之後就會不可逆了，我忽然覺得說這件事怎麼會造成這麼多的誤解呢？今天水利署沒有來，事實上全國各地在推動伏流水的工程……還是農水處這邊可以說明一下？到底伏流水跟所謂的鑿井取水有怎麼樣的不同，是不是可以說明一下？"],["蔡署長昇甫：報告委員，伏流水跟傳統講的地下水事實上是不一樣的，因為它在含水層是不一樣的，基本上伏流水的取用不會造成地層下陷，以上簡單報告。"],["蔡委員易餘：伏流水不會嘛！"],["蔡署長昇甫：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我現在是有點煩惱啦，煩惱地方現在有謠言在不斷地擴散，然後大家在那邊擔心這個伏流水供應系統會對地方造成怎麼樣的影響。我覺得推動一個進步的政策，可能一些說明還是必要的，所以我想這部分漁業署這邊還是可以多下鄉來跟地方辦公聽會，讓地方可以了解這個工程到底在做什麼，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，這個部分後續我會要求漁業署跟縣市政府一起合作，因為如果有誤解的話，會造成後面政策很難推動，特別是對伏流水的一些誤解。這個部分我想我們會透過相關座談會方式或者相關的專區的方式，把特定的一些漁民或是農民有些認知不一樣的地方，我們會加強宣導。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我覺得這部分要說明一下啦，因為我們推動伏流水本來就是為了要減少用井水嘛……"],["陳部長駿季：地下水，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：用井水就真的會地層下陷，我們用伏流水就是用新的水源來取代過去用井水，照理說這是一個進步的方向，可是這樣的方向鄉親有誤解，我覺得這個要說明一下。"],["陳部長駿季：好，這個我們儘快來澄清。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。","下一個回到雜糧的部分，我們知道現在玉米的價格，烏俄戰爭時的高價差不多到11塊，現在玉米大概回到了戰爭前的盤勢，差不多都回到7塊左右，既然玉米已經到了一個合理的價格，在玉米十幾塊的時候，我常常聽到很多飼料廠、在做飼料的，都用米糠來代替玉米，用米糠代替玉米最大的麻煩就是……"],["陳部長駿季：用碎米。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，它如果用碎米來代替玉米的話，碎米對於養殖業的換肉率是不夠的，所以這部分我覺得漁業署這邊應該要進一步去跟這些飼料廠說，他們的調配方式還是要回到以玉米為主，然後讓養殖魚的換肉率才會符合比較好的水準。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，當初要用碎米代替這些玉米，有一部分是因為COVID-19的關係使船運不穩定，造成我們國內的玉米量不足時的一個權宜措施，現在如果玉米供應穩定，大概就不會再用碎米，然後我們也會請漁業署，這不只是漁業署，還有其他的，像國內的玉米的部分，要怎麼樣拉它，它的拉力才夠，我也跟很多飼料工會在談，希望它可以用比較高的價格去買國內的玉米，因為它本身就是一個糧食安全的緩衝。有關這個部分，我想很多國內的飼料業者會把這些玉米當作比較高價的寵物飼料，這部分我想我們也會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，就是玉米的使用要回到正常的使用水平；第二個，要增加種植玉米的面積，這個也是很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我之前也有跟部長提過，我們現在有太多的河川公地，河川公地在早期有種植，大概都是種植玉米，因為是在二期，那時候也都比較沒有颱風，剛好那時候種植的最大好處就是由農民來管理河川公地，然後河川公地就不會長雜草樹木，如果長了雜草樹木，要再去疏濬的話，相對要付出更大的成本。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以讓農民來協助河川公地種植的這件事情，我覺得農業部可以去鼓勵他，看要怎麼樣來鼓勵。部長，這部分你們後續的決定是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，委員一直在關心的河川公地的部分，我們上個禮拜已經做政策的討論，現在有一個大概確定的大的方向，就是河川公地如果領有租約的時候，我們會有適度的獎勵，但是這個獎勵的水平不能跟一般土地、一般農地的獎勵水平一樣，因為當初在設計這個獎勵的時候有考慮到地租的問題，相對地河川公地的地租是比較便宜的，所以我們會有一個比較好的設計……"],["蔡委員易餘：河川公地的地租大概幾百塊啦，那個是比較便宜沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們的獎勵不會完全比照一般的農地，但是我們會給予獎勵，我們會去設計它的金額。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這件事趕快宣布，因為像我們八掌溪那邊現在正在疏濬，如果有辦法疏濬完成，讓他們可以馬上來做，明年就可以讓農民上線，今年趕快處理好租約，明年就讓他們上線，就開始去那邊耕作了，這個部分如果處理好，未來就不用同樣的工作一直在那邊重複，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。","最後，我覺得剛剛雅琳委員問到一個很重點的部分，就是我們沿海的地方、鄉下地方有這種野狗的狀況，部長你說找不到地方，我都覺得我們現在有那麼多在做漁電共生，或是沿海地方正在做光電，為什麼光電不能跟野狗收容所放在一起呢？"],["陳部長駿季：在收容所上面的屋頂型的，我們是鼓勵的，就是它本身的狗舍或是什麼，如果是屋頂型的我們還是鼓勵的。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，如果是那種開放型的呢？"],["陳部長駿季：開放型的就是沒有屋頂啊，我覺得這個可以討論，因為大部分都是找不到地。"],["蔡委員易餘：你就把旁邊用網子圍起來，也是一樣可以讓它放在那裡。"],["陳部長駿季：對啦，這個我們來評估啦。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個就是，事實上你們應該要針對餵養流浪狗的人開罰。"],["陳部長駿季：我一直希望在特定的區域禁止餵養，且應該有罰則，沒有罰則就沒有用啦，因為飼主的責任是一個更重要的……"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊、是啊，因為流浪狗很大的問題第一個就是有人餵養牠……"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個我們來……"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，如果是在養殖地區的話，流浪狗自己會去抓魚，那很厲害耶！牠自己會去游泳抓魚耶，所以我們那邊養殖密度比較高的地方，遇到流浪狗，縱使沒有餵養牠，牠會自己去抓耶！所以你看，現在養殖密度越高的地方，流浪狗越多，這也是一個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們未來會把它當作熱區更積極地處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，可能要積極處理一下，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，部長請回座。聽到蔡易餘委員的質詢，如同長夜遇明燈，令人可敬又可佩。","下一位馬文君、馬文君，馬文君不在。","郭國文、郭國文，郭國文不在。","葉元之、葉元之，葉元之不在。","登記發言委員除不在場之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。書面質詢以及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。","各位同仁針對預算案如有修正動議或相關提案，請於11月25日下午5時之前送經濟委員會辦公室，以利後續彙整，逾時不再收案。本日討論事項所列預算案詢答結束，另定期繼續進行審查，現在散會。","散會（12時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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對"},{"start":143.493,"end":154.543,"text":"好 了解那再來就是說我想部長也知道最近有一個非常轟轟烈烈的新聞就是台南的賽馬被遊蕩犬咬死了有非常多的馬匹死亡"},{"start":156.414,"end":184.355,"text":"我想問一個問題就是說因為我們其實講生物多樣性其實跟野生動物的保育是非常非常的有關有關就是非常的有關連可是呢我看到我們第一個我們現在在農業部今年的預算裡面化解野生動物危害農業及冰危物種與人衝突經費時預算是跟上年度相同可是我們的遊蕩犬的數量明明就是增加的為什麼經費是一樣的這點我是很納悶"},{"start":187.69,"end":210.467,"text":"民喉與流浪犬之間的一個衝突的一個方案。但是我們現在並不是只有民喉而已,因為這個計畫是與人衝突,還有兵為物種。我們這個十五的部分,還有...這個董老師有沒有相關的說明一下?跟委員報告,我們現在處理那個流浪犬的預算,大概控制的預算大概會維持在4000萬左右,比去年增加大概一成。"},{"start":211.427,"end":236.233,"text":"遊蕩犬的有增加一成是不是?可是那是那個計畫一成部分是增加的原因是什麼呢?就是我們現在會補助地方政府加強他們在地的一些絕育的工作那這部分是我們的重點懂了齁那我想部長我覺得我們因為我們遊蕩犬有16萬頭嘛對不對還不含遊蕩貓喔對不對可是我們現在收容所其實只能我們自己只能對不到1萬喔"},{"start":237.093,"end":237.193,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":256.255,"end":276.091,"text":"我想分兩個層次,第一個層次就是在前段的時候施主的責任包括進食餵養的部分我們會去加強但是委員所關心的這些後續的收容所的部分我們會更,因為現在很多縣市想要做但是找不到地所以我們現在是要蓋所有的收容所收容所有的犬貓嗎?我們的策略是這樣嗎?"},{"start":277.711,"end":291.802,"text":"我們要加強它的週轉率就是說收容以後一段時間應該去增揚因為其實我對於你們的這個週轉率要怎麼去因為其實要怎麼去執行我其實蠻納悶的啦我想我們會後來討論這個資訊落實這個週轉率的彈性跟監督管理品質"},{"start":295.265,"end":296.145,"text":"您覺得這樣子的做法是﹖您的看法是什麼?"},{"start":321.823,"end":340.994,"text":"我覺得所有的動保相關的這些處理我們一定會跟警政單位來做一個協調那該處理我們還是會處理那我們也會跟動保團體做一些溝通啦因為這個蠻重要而不是無限上綱造成一些動保後面的一些議題更難處理我想我們會加強這部分"},{"start":341.754,"end":362.895,"text":"對,我想就是說,我希望其實部長可以針對這個部分,因為其實警察去執法,因為確保我們的動保處可以捕抓這個遊蕩犬,我覺得這還是蠻重要的一件事情,因為就像光這一個禮拜就已經有這麼多的生命死去了,這是非常嚴重的一件事情。那在鄉間,很多小孩會說他不敢通行某些路段,因為有遊蕩犬大居。"},{"start":363.496,"end":363.516,"text":" ﹝問答﹞"},{"start":380.862,"end":402.935,"text":"好,我們會來努力,就是說動保跟野保的相關的知識跟相關的這些觀念的部分應該在課綱裡面從小就應該有一些課綱的處理,我們會跟教育部來看看怎麼樣那大概什麼時候我們可以有一個討論的我想要跟跨部會討論可能需要一點時間,但是我們可以透過相關的我們農業部的相關的推廣系統去跟學校來合作"},{"start":403.695,"end":408.479,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分．非營業部分．非農田水利事業作業基金及所屬單位預算部分．非營業部分．非農田水利事業作業基金及所屬單位預算部分。"},{"start":428.814,"end":437.671,"text":"議員議員議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1111,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時12分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。今天我想要請教有關於生物多樣性的問題，就是112年中央政府總預算的審核報告裡面有提到有關於生物多樣性的部分，就是90年核定生物多樣性推動方案，永續會並成立生物多樣性工作分組，由農業部擔任幕僚機關協調、統籌推動我國生物多樣性的工作，次經滾動修正我國推動生物多樣性之策略與計畫，惟截至113年3月31日止，我國生物多樣性永續發展行動計畫於106年配合永續會組織架構，已解除列管，所以現在沒有機關來統籌、規劃及管考政府推動生物多樣性的執行情況，也就無從了解我國生物多樣性工作的全貌，建議請行政院研謀妥處並督促相關機關檢討改善。我們一直有follow昆明蒙特羅全球生物多樣性的公約，這個部分我們目前到底是怎麼樣去管考，我們是不是應該有一個相關的組織來做這件事情呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，雖然永續會解散，但是相關的工作我們持續在做，至於詳細的情形，我是不是可以請林保署署長來說明？"],["張委員雅琳：好，簡單說明，好嗎？謝謝。"],["林署長華慶：報告委員，我們現在正在研擬所謂國家生物多樣性策略與行動計畫（NBSAPs），在年底草案應該就會出來，我們會從農業部這邊來報行政院。"],["張委員雅琳：所以接下來是林業署來做整個管考各部會嗎？還是只是一個架構而已？"],["林署長華慶：我們也有報行政院，希望在原本的氣候小組裡頭可以納入生物多樣性，因為現在在國際上氣候的變遷跟生物多樣性是一起的……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，因為野生動物是最先受到傷害的。"],["林署長華慶：我們也建議行政院到時候能夠考量在氣候小組納入生物多樣性。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。再來，我想部長也知道最近有一個非常轟轟烈烈的新聞，就是臺南的賽馬被遊蕩犬咬死了，有非常多的馬匹死亡。我想問一個問題，因為我們講生物多樣性其實跟野生動物的保育非常、非常地有關聯，可是我看到，第一個，現在在農業部今年的預算裡面，化解野生動物危害農業及瀕危物種與人衝突經費的預算是跟上年度相同，我們的遊蕩犬數量明明就是增加的，為什麼經費是一樣的？這點我實在很納悶。"],["陳部長駿季：我們這裡處理的是獼猴跟流浪犬之間衝突的方案。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們現在並不是只有獼猴而已，這個計畫是與人衝突，還有瀕危物種……"],["陳部長駿季：動保司有沒有相關的……說明一下。"],["江司長文全：跟委員報告，我們現在處理流浪犬的預算大概控制維持在4,000萬左右，比去年增加大概一成。"],["張委員雅琳：遊蕩犬的預算有增加一成，是不是？"],["江司長文全：對，是。"],["張委員雅琳：可是那個計畫增加一成的部分，增加的原因是什麼呢？"],["江司長文全：就是我們現在會補助地方政府加強他們在地的絕育工作，這部分是我們的重點。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，懂了。部長，我覺得我們的遊蕩犬有16萬頭，對不對？還不含遊蕩貓，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員雅琳：可是我們現在收容所其實只能……"],["陳部長駿季：8,000。"],["張委員雅琳：對，不到1萬，這個落差非常大，而且數量持續地在增加，這不僅會造成最近的……人車的衝突其實都非常多，最近有新聞報導有人為了閃避遊蕩貓，人就死了，我想我們應該還是要有更積極的策略來解決遊蕩貓的問題，我們是不是可以有一些相關的做法，看看國際上採用哪些方法去化解這些衝突呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想分兩個層次，第一個層次就是在前端飼主的責任，包括禁止餵養的部分，我們會去加強，但是委員所關心的後續收容所的部分……"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["陳部長駿季：因為現在很多縣市想要做，但是找不到地。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們現在是要蓋收容所收容所有的犬貓嗎？我們的策略是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們要加強它的週轉率，就是收容一段時間以後去認養……"],["張委員雅琳：因為我時間有限，我對於你們這個週轉率要怎麼去執行其實是滿納悶的，我想我們會後來討論這個資訊……"],["陳部長駿季：會後我再請動保司……"],["張委員雅琳：請落實週轉率的彈性跟監督管理品質，因為我覺得還是要回到動物福利來看。再來，這次在臺南發生馬匹事件之後，市政府就派了動保處要去捕捉遊蕩犬，可是被愛媽追打，被愛媽追打之後就有報警處理，對於這樣的報警處理，然後我們繼續執法的做法，部長的看法是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得所有動保的相關處理，我們一定會跟警政單位做協調，該處理的我們還是會處理。我們也會跟動保團體做一些溝通，因為這個滿重要的，而不是無限上綱，造成動保後面的議題更難處理，我們會加強這部分。"],["張委員雅琳：我希望部長可以針對這個部分，因為警察去執法，確保我們的動保處可以捕捉遊蕩犬，我覺得這還是滿重要的一件事情，因為光這一個禮拜就已經有這麼多的生命死去了，這是非常嚴重的事情。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["張委員雅琳：在鄉間很多小孩不敢通行某些路段，因為有遊蕩犬大軍。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個部分還是要請部長來努力。最後一個簡單的問題，就是民間還是希望有一個議題可以納入課綱，我看到動保把有關於動物保護的東西納入課綱，我希望野保的部分也可以一併納入，因為這兩個就是會有一些衝突。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們會來努力，動保跟野保的相關知識跟相關觀念應該放在課綱裡面，從小就應該有一些課綱的處理，我們會跟教育部來看看怎麼樣納入。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候我們可以有一個討論的……"],["陳部長駿季：我想要跟跨部會討論可能需要一點時間，但是我們可以透過農業部相關的推廣系統跟學校合作，這個部分可以直接走。"],["張委員雅琳：兩個月的時間我們來……"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以做一個規劃，兩個月可以做規劃，然後明年開始，如果教育部課綱納入要一段時間，農業部就用其他宣導的方式先進去。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。部長。我完全同意張雅琳委員的說法，就是野保法要列入課綱，你這個時間太保守，是不是三個月之內……"],["張委員雅琳：他剛剛是說兩個月。"],["主席：一個月。"],["陳部長駿季：我們還要跟教育部協調。"],["主席：兩個月，要儘快把這個放入課綱，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝主席。"],["主席：下一位請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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雄：目前了解是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前了解是這樣。好，你請回座。請國安局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你聽到現在，大家現在對於數發部的期待也很高，當然對我們警政單位的期待都很高，因為它是人民的保母，尤其有AI的情況之下，所以本席要來請教國安局，你面對AI可能帶來的資安外洩、資安危機，政府要怎麼去因應？你光是一個粉專下架，衍生的恐慌是這麼動盪，那你要怎麼做？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，針對AI帶來的風險，原則上我們的報告裡面提到兩塊：一個資安，一個可能是假訊息的威脅。我先從資安這個角度來看，面對這種生成式AI的發起，可能要從它會構成什麼樣的威脅來談我們怎麼來因應。首先它會快速的產製惡意程式；第二個，社交電郵會更加仿真，以前語文是障礙……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：幾乎要百分之百。"],["張副局長元斌：生成式已經不是障礙，而且它快速還可以持續學習優化。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是、對。"],["張副局長元斌：面對這樣的攻擊，我們要從三個角度來看，第一個就是應該要先有機制面，有關機制面，我相信政府機關都已經有一個既有的機制，接下來是要落實強化。舉個例子，第一個，剛剛數發部次長也有提到，我們因應這種邊界設備可能遭受AI的漏洞攻擊，目前我們看到這是越來越常見，所以邊界設備應該要做好相關的防護，導入零信任，甚至機敏的資訊能夠做實體隔離，避免駭客能夠直接碰觸。","另外一個就是要加強人員的資安意識，包括剛剛講的社交工程的電郵越來越仿真、越來越精準，所以只要加強人員的資安意識，遇到來路不明的不要去點，甚至應該要落實單位的資安規範。另外……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果以你目前給本席所做的說明，你根本沒有辦法解決什麼問題，請你暫停。","我還是請數發部次長，你認為剛剛國安局的說法當中，在數發部，你可以扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["林次長宜敬：抱歉，委員請問是哪一個部分？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且在整個駭侵跟漏洩的部分是非常恐怖，你可以扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["林次長宜敬：OK！我們數發部在AI的方面，第一個當然就是說我們要提供各種工具給內政部警政署等或者是其他政府單位，來對抗這些不管是假訊息或者是AI的風險，當然在數位方面，數發部是主責單位，所有這些方面都是我們的責任。抱歉，請問委員您指的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都是你的責任，我請問你們的橫向聯繫目前執行的情況怎麼樣？OK嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：應該還可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：應該還可以，為什麼發生了這麼多事情？"],["林次長宜敬：您是說這件事情？指的是周末這件事情？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且瞬息萬變。"],["林次長宜敬：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我在這邊，尤其剛剛國安局特別講到了，因為世界各國是無國界的。"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是無國界的，在這樣的情況之下，你要怎麼樣跟橫向所有相關單位聯繫？如何與各國加強這一些相關的情資？"],["林次長宜敬：是，事實上最近一直有一些友好國家包含一些先進國家，還有一些開發中的民主國家，他們都來臺灣跟我們在AI以及資安方面做很多的探討，因為現在很多的資安攻擊都是跨國的，而且會是跳轉的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["林次長宜敬：譬如說，它要攻擊臺灣的話，它可能先攻擊美國，從美國再跳轉來攻擊臺灣，也可能先攻擊菲律賓，然後再……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以可以看到這個嚴重性。"],["林次長宜敬：是，這個是非常嚴重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常嚴重。"],["林次長宜敬：所以我們有很多的橫向溝通，但是這方面的溝通通常是我們數發部下屬的資安院做這種溝通，這些溝通因為涉及到國安，所以並不是每一次的會面、每一次的討論都會公開，而且這個討論的細節更是不能隨意在媒體公開。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，不用說每一次要公開，我們民眾要的是一個答案、是一個結果論，民眾得到安全、安心的生活，因為大家現在不安心。"],["林次長宜敬：是，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我再請教國安局，美國在10月份發布了「國家安全備忘錄」，對不對？它特別也把五角大廈跟情報單位增加了AI的技術應用跟部署，這是首次。基於維護整個美國與全球資訊網的安全，來防制這些利用AI進行的軍事情報活動，我剛才特別說了，這是首次針對AI技術的使用、管理跟相關的風險，它訂定了什麼呢？具體的因應措施，期望在加強AI技術於網路安全、反情報、軍事研發等這些國家安全領域應用當中，都能夠同時透過相關的風險控管規範，主要目的就是要確保公民的權利不受侵犯，但是我們現在感覺到臺灣人民的權利已經非常不安心，你可以感同身受嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，國科會同樣在最近訂定了我們國家的人工智慧基本法案，這個法案結合鼓勵、創新，並兼顧民眾權益，裡面的一個精神就有針對民眾的隱私權，還有相關權益保障的應用，訂定指引的綱領，所以這部分是有在做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你目前所說的，就是國科會他們已經做了一個規範出來，但在國安局部分，美國都已經這麼做了，備忘錄也都出來了，我們國安局自己的備忘錄或指引，方向是什麼？"],["張副局長元斌：有，事實上，去年我們有依據行政院針對生成式人工智慧使用規範訂定了作業原則，提供給我們同仁來做指引，目的也是要第一，兼顧到AI的應用；第二，要合規的應用，即合乎現行規定，這個部分是目前我們在制度面上的作法。另外，剛剛委員提到的美國針對軍情單位，他們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也可以看看他們有哪一些規定，既然已經公布了，那有什麼……"],["張副局長元斌：我們會參考。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，本席就要請問你這句話……"],["張副局長元斌：我們會參考，因為這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們應該滾動式的檢討，看看怎麼樣能夠讓我們的人民更加安全？"],["張副局長元斌：是，謝謝委員，這個我們內部已經有做過研究，我們會參考美國訂定出來這樣的精神，檢討我們內部的機制可以朝向更加穩健的方式發展。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個務必一定要達陣，我們也期勉相關單位，因為到目前為止，人民的生活就是離開不了這一環，但是人民離開不了又有很多不安心，這並不是一個民主國家應該要有的層次和感受……"],["張副局長元斌：是，我們會持續努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["張副局長元斌：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，副局長和次長請回。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","伍麗華、伍麗華、伍麗華委員不在。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 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麼處理"},{"start":128.284,"end":148.861,"text":"謝謝委員對於這個有關融資租賃公司的資金的一個運用那也跟委員報告目前八家公股行戶貸給融資租賃業的大概1100億那給三大融資租賃公司目前的貸款餘額是617億那至於剛剛委員所提到那個確實是就是說融資公司如果把錢"},{"start":150.422,"end":167.193,"text":"借給不動產業者的話那就破了那個銀行法72條之二那個30%的一個變成一個漏洞甚至有沒有可能融資公司另外成一個投資公司然後透過投資公司又去貸給不動產業者這個確實要非常的重視那我們這個部分呢金管會也已經正在處理那我們對於公股、行庫的部分我們也請他們在上個禮拜五還是禮拜十就已經請"},{"start":177.165,"end":198.98,"text":"他們來告訴他們說這個要加強查核,第一個一個加強貸錢的審核,第二個就最重要是貸後管理,就是他的資金流向要能夠確實去檢核,是不是原來跟你貸款的資金的用途是不是用在那個方面而還是走到另外一個管道去流到不動產,這個部分確實要做加強的檢核,如同委員所說的,對。貸後的這個"},{"start":201.401,"end":230.165,"text":"管理固然重要,貸貨的管理的追蹤但是貸錢我覺得他們沒有受到中央銀行的這一條規範就不對因為租賃公司這數條三兄弟切身未明他到底是什麼有牌的地下錢莊還是說他是金融機構被人刪不管金管會也管不著他那經濟部只能依公司法管"},{"start":231.192,"end":246.851,"text":"我為什麼提到這個問題非得財政部處理不可因為公營行庫其他民營行庫那當然這不關財政部的事但是公營行庫他是我們財政部掌管公股"},{"start":247.677,"end":266.554,"text":"而且掌管了他們的董事長總經理所以你有交辦他們去查查這點很好但是我希望你給他們一個期限他多久時間內給你一份報告可不可以查查說他在授信前的"},{"start":267.557,"end":295.36,"text":"管理、待放跟受信候的追蹤這個部分（可以（他要一個報告給你可不可以（可以我們一個月以內一個月以內（一個月以內（對（好那我搞不懂的就是說我們這些公營銀行戶有的很規矩啦你像第一銀行這種就規規矩矩彰化銀行也算規矩我上次就跟你講過我覺得不可思議像土地銀行想方設法"},{"start":296.38,"end":323.058,"text":"要把我們供股的錢供股行庫的錢這是來自於我們人民辛辛苦苦的血汗錢去存款想方設法硬是要把它搬給這些二值的建商就是我上個禮拜在講的啊總共中央銀行另外規定貸款給建商購買空地"},{"start":325.507,"end":349.224,"text":"18個月內一定要動工的這一條規定竟然有2180億這麼大這麼龐大的金額裡面有1100億是由土地銀行另外其他公股加起來也1000億的資金縱容給這些惡質建商去買地養地圈地難怪"},{"start":350.65,"end":370.951,"text":"難怪我們臺灣四處22縣市從臺北市帶頭一路下來每個縣市房地產都在大漲那導致我們一般聲奪小民買不到房屋那買到房屋的現在也變成屋奴因為高房價"},{"start":372.776,"end":396.153,"text":"那我們的中產階級本來還有餘裕的全部大家辛苦的血汗錢都被這個高房價那導致高房貸全部成為烏奴所以我們公營行戶不應該當作二職建商的幫兇不能助紂為虐所以"},{"start":399.417,"end":411.308,"text":"另外這2180億超過18個月供股行戶貸款給這些二職建商的部分這個部分我要求你也應該"},{"start":413.291,"end":417.375,"text":"請他們積極的想出怎麼樣的方式去追回這些貸款去增加他們的利息額度、抬高額度"},{"start":434.594,"end":459.274,"text":"我逼死建商要不你就規規矩矩開工要不你就把錢還給我們跟銀行戶這樣才對嘛不是嗎另外第二個問題就是說我一直認為我們國家我們這個囤房稅率太低啦你現在把囤房稅率的最高級距你定為4.8那事實上在很多縣市政府齁坦白講"},{"start":463.342,"end":480.003,"text":"有幾個縣市政府齁我用四個字形容啦陽奉陰違啦我們有訂了這個稅率額度但是他們又害怕得罪這些草房族們所以都適度欸"},{"start":481.618,"end":504.33,"text":"多次把他們調降我以新北市做例子新北市2018年把非自用住宅稅率從2.4%降到1.5%新竹縣也是把非自住的住宅稅率從2.5%降到1.6%"},{"start":508.465,"end":524.636,"text":"所以很多地方政府因為不得罪所以就陽奉陰違所以我認為我認為是不是我們應該把稅率基準直接把它入到入法林入到我們定"},{"start":525.979,"end":546.775,"text":"的這個法律稅法裡面直接把它定到法律裡面這個稅率那才不會讓各縣市政府礙於人情礙於各種奇奇怪怪的方式那個部長你知道嗎我們從這5年來啊這5年來我們囤房的人數從45萬增加到54萬這5年來喔囤房的人數"},{"start":558.549,"end":585.009,"text":"456800人2019年到到今年54萬5500人54萬5500人增加了9萬人來加入囤房、草房這是不可思議的事情所以部長現在的高房價現在大家的草房、囤房"},{"start":586.53,"end":596.637,"text":"我個人認為最直接的方式就是從囤房稅我們應該直接立法而且直接提高你幹法呢?"},{"start":598.015,"end":616.781,"text":"跟委員報告這一次房屋稅條例的修正以後把相關的稅率有做一些調整那而且是全國歸戶而且是全數累進如果說他的房屋超過一定的數額的話是每一間都按這個高的稅率來課徵那另外除了稅率之外我們還是要考慮稅基的問題"},{"start":618.001,"end":634.472,"text":"我們也督促各地方政府要去調整他的稅基也就是房屋課稅限制一定要去調如果你的稅率只是稅率調而稅基不去調的話根本達不到這樣的一個加重持有成本的就是說囤房的一個持有成本的這個部分所以這個兩路必須要並進"},{"start":635.593,"end":664.02,"text":"另外因為我們這個囤房稅這個部分是今年7月1號開始實施明年就開單那在整個來看我們會按照他的實施的情形來再做滾動的一個看檢視有沒有要做滾動的檢討其實還沒滾動之前我現在就預見到了就我剛剛跟你講的我認為這個稅率過低你看最高級距4.8而已那比方說像新北市像新竹市他們地方政府擅自"},{"start":665.106,"end":691.706,"text":"去把這個稅率調降基本上就不對啊就違反我們財政部要求的這個精神第一個我們在囤房的部分1.5的部分最主要是它有出租的部分也就是我們鼓勵我有房子除了自住以外我閒置的房子我就要用高的稅率但是如果我出租的話我就用1.5是希望把空的房子釋出來讓房屋的租賃市場有更充足的一個屋源這個部分另外如果說"},{"start":692.426,"end":718.152,"text":"他規定的稅率和行我們財政部有定一個參考的稅率基準如果他沒有按照我們的稅率基準而且比我們這個低的話他如果有稅損的話中央是不給予補貼補助的有些道理但是我把結論跟你講結論是現在我們整體啊我們國家到今年為止空污率5年內的新房屋空污率高達34%"},{"start":721.053,"end":749.304,"text":"每三戶有一戶是空屋所以已經到這樣的地步已經很清楚很明顯的看到有草房族、囤房族他們運用我們稅制上這一部分寬鬆稅率過低他們加緊草房、囤房所以導致真正需要房屋的青年朋友們、生斗小民們"},{"start":752.737,"end":774.129,"text":"這個購屋之徒遙遙無期不打緊現在連租屋都成了大問題所以租屋的部分我下次再跟你談部長我要求你的就是財政部要拿出態度拿出主張而且要堅定堅定的這麼說要求公營航庫對於空地稅"},{"start":775.59,"end":799.748,"text":"對於借故把大量的金額2180億貸款給這些二值高負債建商去買地、養地、圈地這個一定要提出辦法叫他們交出這個報告限期他們要去改善第二點對於貸款給鼠條山兄弟也是要求他們一個月內做出這個報告要不然"},{"start":800.288,"end":801.749,"text":"今天登記的發言的委員都已經詢答完畢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時59分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長，我遍查了很多資料，我發現租賃公司成了惡質建商養地炒房很大的幫兇，本國銀行對租賃公司授信額度3,892億裡面，其中八家公股行庫占了1,359億，而這三大租賃公司、薯條三兄弟占了最大，他們這1,359億裡面非常大的額度是借給這些惡質建商。依據政府、中央銀行的規定，對於行庫、銀行貸款給建商本來有個限制，就是不能超過當時存款金額的30%，我們有這個限制，但是額外開了一個巧門給薯條三兄弟的時候，薯條三兄弟變成是一個很大的破口，所以我認為這個部分公股行庫責無旁貸，當然財政部也是，因為你們掌管了公股行庫的股份，董事長、總經理都是由財政部派的，你認為這個部分應該怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員關心有關融資租賃公司資金的運用。也跟委員報告，目前八家公股行庫貸給融資租賃業大概1,100億，目前三大融資租賃公司的貸款餘額是617億，至於剛剛委員所提到的，融資公司如果把錢借給不動產業者的話，就破了銀行法第七十二條之二規定的30%，變成一個漏洞，甚至有沒有可能融資公司另外成立投資公司，然後透過這個投資公司又去貸給不動產業者，確實要非常重視。這個部分金管會也已經正在處理，對於公股行庫的部分，我們在上個禮拜五還是禮拜四就已經有請他們來，並且告訴他們這個部分要加強查核。第一個，貸前的加強審核。第二個，最重要的是貸後管理，也就是它的資金流向要能夠確實去檢核，是不是用在原來貸款的資金用途方面，還是走到另外一個管道去流到不動產，這個部分確實要做加強的檢核，如同委員所說的。"],["王委員世堅：貸後的管理追蹤固然重要，但是我覺得他們在貸前沒有受到中央銀行這一條的規範就不對了，因為租賃公司、薯條三兄弟妾身未明，它到底是什麼？有牌的地下錢莊還是金融機構？它變成三不管，金管會也管不著它，經濟部只能依公司法來管。我為什麼提到這個問題非得財政部處理不可？因為它是公營行庫，其他的民營行庫當然就不關財政部的事，但是公營行庫是財政部掌管公股，而且掌管了他們董事長、總經理的派任，所以你有交辦他們去查察，這一點很好。但是我希望你給他們一個期限，多久時間內給你一份報告，可不可以？查察它在授信前的管理、貸放與授信後的追蹤，這個部分它要提供一個報告給你，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以，我們一個月以內提供。"],["王委員世堅：好。我搞不懂的是這些公營行庫有的很規矩，像第一銀行就規規矩矩，彰化銀行也算規矩，我上次就跟你講過我覺得不可思議，像土地銀行是想方設法要把我們公股行庫的錢，這是來自於人民辛辛苦苦的血汗錢、存款，它想方設法硬是要把錢搬給這些惡質建商。誠如我上個禮拜在講的，中央銀行另外規定貸款給建商購買空地18個月內一定要動工，但是竟然有2,180億這麼龐大的金額，其中有1,100億是由土地銀行貸放的，另外，其他公股加起來也有1,000億資金，縱容給這些惡質建商去買地、養地、圈地。難怪我們臺灣四處22縣市從臺北市帶頭一路下來，每個縣市的房地產都在大漲，導致我們一般升斗小民買不到房屋，買到房屋的現在也因為高房價變成屋奴。我們的中產階級本來還有餘裕，大家辛苦的血汗錢都被高房價導致高房貸，全部成為屋奴，所以我們公營行庫不應該當惡質建商的幫兇，不能助紂為虐。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員說得是。"],["王委員世堅：另外，公股行庫貸款給這些惡質建商的2,180億中超過18個月的部分，我要求你也應該要求公股行庫對這個部分做出追蹤，然後提供一個報告給財政部，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以，這個部分我們會繼續追蹤。"],["王委員世堅：請他們積極想出什麼樣的方式能夠追回這些貸款，譬如增加他們的利息額度、抬高額度，逼使建商要不就規規矩矩開工，要不就把錢還給我們的公營行庫，這樣才對嘛！不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員世堅：另外，第二個問題，我一直認為我們國家的囤房稅率太低，現在囤房稅率的最高級距訂為4.8%，事實上，在很多縣市政府，坦白講，有幾個縣市政府我用四個字形容「陽奉陰違」，雖然我們訂定了稅率級距，但是他們又害怕得罪這些炒房族們，所以都多次適度把稅率調降。我以新北市為例子，新北市2018年把非自用住宅稅率從2.4%降到1.5%；新竹縣也是把非自用住宅稅率從2.5%降到1.6%，很多地方政府為了不得罪，所以就陽奉陰違。我認為是不是應該把稅率基準直接訂定在稅法裡面，直接把稅率訂定在法律裡面，才不會讓各縣市政府礙於人情、礙於各種奇奇怪怪的理由。部長，你知道嗎？這五年來囤房人數從2019年的45萬6,800人增加到今年54萬5,500人，增加9萬人加入囤房、炒房，這是不可思議的事情！所以部長，現在的高房價就是因為大家炒房、囤房，我個人認為最直接的方式就是從囤房稅著手，應該直接立法，而且直接提高，你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這一次房屋稅條例修正以後，有把相關的稅率做了一些調整，而且是全國歸戶、全數累進，如果他的房屋超過一定數額的話，是每一間都按高的稅率來課徵。另外，除了稅率之外，我們還是要考慮稅基的問題，我們也督促各地方政府要去調整稅基，也就是房屋課稅現值一定要調整，因為如果只是稅率調整，而稅基不去調的話，根本達不到這樣一個加重持有成本，就是囤房的一個持有成本的部分，所以這兩路必須要並進。另外，因為我們囤房稅是今年7月1號開始實施，明年就開單，整個來看，我們會按照它實施的情形再做檢視，看有沒有要做滾動的檢討。"],["王委員世堅：滾動檢視？其實還沒滾動之前我現在就遇到了……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，但是……"],["王委員世堅：就我剛剛跟你講的嘛……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，您剛剛講的……"],["王委員世堅：我認為這個稅率過低，你最高級距4.8%而已嘛，比方說像新北市、新竹市，他們地方政府擅自去把這個稅率調降……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，他們其實是……"],["王委員世堅：這基本上就不對，就違反我們財政部要求的精神，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，第一個，我們在囤房的部分，1.5%最主要是他有出租的部分，也就是我們鼓勵我有房子，除了自住以外，我閒置的房子就要用高的稅率，但是如果我出租的話就用1.5%，希望把空的房子釋出來，讓房屋的租賃市場有更充足的屋源。","另外，如果說它規定的稅率……我們財政部有訂一個參考的稅率基準，如果它沒有按照我們的稅率基準，而且比我們這個低的話，它如果有稅損，中央是不給予補助的，所以這有一個相關的……"],["王委員世堅：部長，你講的都有些道理啦，但是我把結論跟你講，結論是現在我們國家到今年為止整體的空屋率，5年內的新房屋空屋率高達34%，每3戶有1戶是空屋，已經到這樣的地步，已經很清楚、很明顯的看到有炒房族、囤房族，他們運用稅制上這一部分寬鬆、稅率過低，他們加緊炒房、囤房。所以導致真正需要房屋的青年朋友們、升斗小民們，購屋之途遙遙無期不打緊，現在連租屋都成了大問題。租屋的部分，部長，我下次再跟你談，我要求財政部要拿出態度、拿出主張……"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是。"],["王委員世堅：而且要堅定、堅定的這麼走。要求公營行庫對於空地稅，對於借故把大量的金額兩千一百八十億貸款給這些惡質、高負債建商去買地、養地、圈地，這個一定要提出辦法，叫他們交出這個報告，限期要去改善。第二點，對於貸款給薯條三兄弟，也是要求他們一個月內做出報告，要不然在中央銀行訂的規範下，薯條三兄弟這些租賃公司會成了最大的破口，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是的，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員，謝謝部長。","今日登記發言的委員都已經詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決議：說明及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料，請財政部於一週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","中華民國114年度中央政府總預算，有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度，均另擇期繼續審查。","本次會議委員若有相關預算提案，請於11月25日（星期一）中午12點以前，逕送財政委員會議事人員收件。","本次會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。散會，謝謝。","散會（12時14分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"157038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87a2ae466dec99dd26dc7cef15d9be6ba6e2d913a09c00f96f4a7ded5c40f3c2c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":24.66,"end":24.941,"text":"國土計劃法下開放的"},{"start":48.191,"end":48.411,"text":"發言委員：發言委員"},{"start":71.343,"end":99.198,"text":"所謂的超限利用那下面有說但不包括依區域計劃法編定為農牧用地或依都市計劃法國家公園法及其他依法得為農漁牧之肯值經營或使用所以我要特別請教一下這個及其他依法得為這個未來如果國土計劃法上路原住民圖管規則也通過那是不是可以來適用"},{"start":101.17,"end":121.14,"text":"我想跟委員做這樣的一個說明就是在新的國土計畫裡面包括國土保育區、農業發展區還有成家發展區我先講在農業發展區的有可能跟原民部落有關的是在農山的部分那這個部分如果說他後續我想農業部會更積極的去輔導"},{"start":122.16,"end":144.028,"text":"現在問題比較大的是在國保區裡面的部分那國保區裡面的部分如果他本來就是從事農業的時候我們會確保他可以繼續從事農業但是他如果要新增的時候可能因為國保區重新的定義就沒有辦法所以在農山的部分我們可以協助來看看用什麼方式能夠讓他更具合法性"},{"start":144.528,"end":152.064,"text":"那如果在原住民族圖管規則裡面針對國保的部分如果有做這樣的一些例外規定呢?"},{"start":153.356,"end":177.701,"text":"這個可能就不是農業部自己一個部會能夠處理的但是我會把這個議題我會把這個議題我會表達這樣的一個方式好 謝謝部長那另外就是我在10月17號的時候我也有問到其實在原基法下有一個原民會的原住民傳統生物多樣性知識保護條例啦但是有點慚愧都已經滿20年了齁到現在都還訂不出來"},{"start":181.482,"end":197.23,"text":"所以我就特別要提到說這個部分上次部長您也表態會支持你說我想我絕對支持用這樣的方式而且農業部已經啟動原住民保種中心的設置在各個不同地區也有實體的也有種園庫"},{"start":200.351,"end":225.307,"text":"因為在這個草案裡面第4條他有提到傳統生物知識的認定由本會、會商、中央農業主管機關為之所以認定可能原民會沒有這個能力必須要由農業部參與我也知道農業部其實之前叫保種中心在去年的8月叫做農業部升格之後的生物多樣性研究所我也看了一個預算"},{"start":226.548,"end":226.708,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":248.969,"end":276.853,"text":"我跟委員報告齁您剛才所提到生物多樣性研究所的研究其實它反而跟原民部落本身的這些植物的研究反而沒有那麼緊密的反而是我們試驗單位我們的改良廠包括以花蓮廠為中心的這個部分那這個部分我們有一個相關的這些原住民的所謂的早為原利跟原利再現的這個計畫我的原利計畫我知道我所知道大概是八千萬到一億一年喔"},{"start":277.273,"end":277.313,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":293.918,"end":318.637,"text":"主席不好意思我還有一個問題就是關於那個露營場的設置因為有很多很多的紛擾就是中央跟地方政府不同調部會跟部會之間不同調那很多我就舉一個簡單的例子這個露營相關設施外場地應符合現況使用所以這個外就很麻煩了我這邊有一個圖"},{"start":320.418,"end":320.498,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":342.415,"end":370.269,"text":"那最後就是我們林保署這邊我要特別謝謝因為我處理過的像山地門成古一頭木那個山地村的舊主居地振化邊返還林保署很幫忙那在濁西那邊有個大分山屋即便上去要8到10天林務局也很幫忙齁那也都有成功的案例但是因為我們手上案子很多所以我還是需要林保署這個地方來跟我們做一個延長說明可以嗎部長"},{"start":372.49,"end":373.992,"text":"時間請同仁跟到您辦公室去討論。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai 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是真的還是假的?"},{"start":100.885,"end":126.532,"text":"我們並沒有要求臨書去下架這些真實的粉專對嘛那這個是不是假的是不是AI深偽的這個是不是有人假造刑事局的身份去提出法律要求有沒有可能據我們了解是臨書他們內部在一個篩選機制上沒有我說這個通知他說是來自刑事局嘛"},{"start":127.674,"end":133.84,"text":"那你們又說沒有嘛對不對那有沒有要調查如果有人偽造嚴不嚴重"},{"start":134.802,"end":138.443,"text":"那這是被錯下架的粉專說他們收到通知是警政署這裡的資訊嗎那這是不是有人偽造還是是真的這到底是真的還是假的"},{"start":162.672,"end":177.331,"text":"跟委員報告,就我們的瞭解是臉書它內部的篩選機制它有不同部門,他們有認知他們現在就說是Criminal這個,這個刑事局嘛那你們如果不背鍋要不要調查啊"},{"start":178.363,"end":200.051,"text":"這我們會再跟他反請他更正因為他們是內部的不同方面聯繫到底是不是警政署你現在說不出來嘛是不是有人偽造你也答不出來嘛那市長在臉書上面PO了底下也有人留言市長也按讚了那通報這邊有沒有通報警政署去了解有沒有你只要說有還是沒有速發部有沒有橫向通報"},{"start":201.57,"end":215.951,"text":"有還是沒有?國會殿堂請說有或沒有?是跟委員報告這因為不是我月館所以這個細節我我並不了解那可以調查一下嗎?我們待會會有具體要求再來那我想問一下速發部"},{"start":217.373,"end":241.588,"text":"蘇巴部有沒有收集網紅白名單?有還是沒有?跟委員報告,因為有一些網紅他們就一直跟我們澄清說他們希望進入白名單但是沒有收集是他們主動要求我們做這件事情你確定齁?好,OK那你沒有收集那這封信是不是假的?是不是有人偽造你們提出收集?"},{"start":244.158,"end":265.27,"text":"這不是你們嘛對不對這個我要去確認一下你沒辦法確認你剛剛又說沒有好沒關係我們今天就了解真相這是不是你們這是不是錯假訊息這不是AI深偽我們是數位發展部反詐騙工作小組這是網紅提出的喔截圖喔是還是不是"},{"start":270.765,"end":284.87,"text":"報告委員我們在國會殿堂因為我沒有看過這封信事情在禮拜五的深夜已經發生您週末也發文然後呢說同仁很辛苦都是Meta的錯都其他單位的錯那訴發部有沒有責任"},{"start":288.651,"end":315.624,"text":"我們當然有責任我們事實上我們不推諉責任我們馬上加班去把這個事情給處理了說事發原因你們有沒有責任嘛沒關係那所以你們沒有收集白名單那我們之後再來瞭解啦我們非常有疑義說那你收集的目的是什麼如果你已經收集了又沒有辦法保護他們那到底目的是什麼你要收集各支嗎系統誤判、錯假下架、速發部有沒有責"},{"start":316.738,"end":334.873,"text":"有沒有責?如果發生錯假下架的話當然有責如果是責任在我們身上當然是有責如果已經是我們造成的當然是我們沒有責任所以責任不在你們身上你們就沒有責所以如果不是你們造成的你就沒有責任嘛對不對?好很好"},{"start":335.794,"end":352.246,"text":"你們數位產業發展部平台經濟的業務就在你們的下轄的業務範圍之下是臉書是不是平台經濟是你們數發部有沒有付有沒有一些單位政府有沒有單位付他廣告費我們有這麼多的預算做網路行銷我們是不是都把它全部砍掉"},{"start":358.752,"end":382.503,"text":"再來,打詐專法通過了以後,詐欺有關的廣告業者的平台是不是在你們下轄之下,你們有沒有責任?這方面當然有責任啊!對嘛!所以他就算只是他犯的錯,處發部也有責任嘛!這寫得清清楚楚的啊!那您剛剛是不是現在打臉剛剛的你自己?就算是吧!"},{"start":385.171,"end":410.851,"text":"好 這個態度我們都錄下來沒有關係大家事實公平是速發部這是您的美照謝謝你們要宣傳打詐的時候找平台業者來然後呢發生問題了說是平台業者的錯速發部沒有責任沒有關係我們不要去講這些有的沒的我們就只問一件事11月15號深夜從7點開始"},{"start":414.758,"end":417.34,"text":"大批網紅粉專下架什麼時候恢復的?次長知道嗎?"},{"start":426.454,"end":445.325,"text":"請問同仁報告委員大概12點陸陸續續然後12點13分的時候這個Meta有傳訊息給我已經陸陸續續已經恢復了然後我這邊會陸續有去監控我這邊有那裡的訊息也可以提供委員來看謝謝非常好非常精準的回答那速發部什麼時候發布的回應"},{"start":448.688,"end":469.14,"text":"蘇發部什麼時候發布的回應?關於粉專已經恢復了,除了這個大問題,請民眾不要恐慌我們蘇發部已經在努力了,你們什麼時候公開對這件事情發表回應的?什麼時候?這個我要回去查一下,因為當初不是我自己回應的,所以可能要請同仁說明一下"},{"start":470.771,"end":498.882,"text":"什麼時候來報告委員其實就像我覺得很多事情就像火災一樣發生的事情要趕快先處理善後所以目前來講其實一直以來我就一直在連續所有的粉專直到所有的粉專能夠確定恢復之後然後我們才來做適當的因應所以也因為這樣子到隔天的時候我們就有通報次長然後報告次長說這個到底目前現在情況怎樣所以次長也在演說適當的人跟大家講然後所以才會有剛剛委員看的那一封信說請大家安心如果你還有什麼問題的話"},{"start":499.742,"end":525.088,"text":"當然我也知道委員也很關心我也持續關注委員的一些臉書也做一個所以我們一起來努力把這個整個事情發生當然就是我們要救災 把它處理好以上謝謝 謝謝委員首先速發部的預算如果不夠的話可以提出來啦你們有很多的單位不是你們在救災的時候你們有沒有收發室你們有沒有一些這個要上傳資訊的部門不要講得好像整個速發部所有的人"},{"start":526.363,"end":539.308,"text":"都在救災啊當然不是嘛那到現在速發部也沒有做官方的這個提出啊你們在事發的平台上面你們到現在都還沒有聲明為什麼我要提這件事啊跟次長說明"},{"start":541.109,"end":562.587,"text":"我在11月15號晚上11點09分請大家關注這件事也是希望平台業者希望我們的政府部會趕快來解決不然民眾很恐慌會不會還有下一波的問題等等確實如您所說凌晨12點13分左右就恢復了我的這個更新就是在那個時候PO的"},{"start":562.847,"end":586.661,"text":"因為沒有拿到也沒有得到速發部的任何聲明所以我們當然很抱歉我們並不知道同仁在進行加班所以呢我們在這裡是說感謝Meta因為按下恢復按鈕的還是他嘛因為那個平台不是我們的嘛所以我感謝Meta在全力奔走聯繫大家一起努力嘛對不對那恢復了請問我這樣PO有沒有問題有沒有問題沒有問題吧"},{"start":592.104,"end":617.172,"text":"我沒有發表沒有什麼問題啊對嘛結果底下一批人都在講說為什麼只感謝Meta今天我也感謝速發部為什麼因為我們後來知道嘛對不對我們後來知道嘛所以我想請問速發部大家都說這個您剛剛說沒有直接責任那我就請教速發部有沒有通報業者Meta做快速下架的機制你有沒有可能跟他聯動"},{"start":618.868,"end":629.065,"text":"是 有可能阿有可能嘛 對不對這是你們速發部的官網寫的嘛快速下架是由政府部門通報的詐騙嘛你們有沒有可能不小心通報錯了"},{"start":630.428,"end":650.138,"text":"當然有可能,但是我們很小心就避免這種狀況啊那你的臉書上說沒有嘛對阿,那這件事情的確沒有阿,這件事情的確不是我們稍微通報到的所以你們說沒有嘛,所以我確認一件事,因為網友都在講,訴發部沒有權力也沒有能力去下架詐騙粉專我就此請教你,你們有沒有能力通報並且下架粉專"},{"start":652.619,"end":657.361,"text":"所以如果有錯粉磚下架也有可能是通報錯了對不對您就對或不對就好了對嘛沒錯嘛因為這就是你們的紀錄嘛一個小時之內去幫這些商業的業者去下架錯假粉磚嘛"},{"start":680.27,"end":707.806,"text":"你們也有說跟44位名人建立通報管道這個就是你們所謂的白名單可能還有更多啦這是你們官網上寫的您剛剛說不清楚數量沒有關係今天其實我的要求非常的簡單謝謝主席給我時間講完這三個具體訴求希望我們的政府部會一起協助我們讓我們不要打詐越打越憂心讓大家可以有一個安心的資通安全的環境首先"},{"start":709.311,"end":723.017,"text":"請求內政部的警政署一週內提供Meta收到警政署相關單位的法律要求之內容及調查報告以確認是否有偽造警政單位之犯罪可不可以一週內"},{"start":724.886,"end":744.653,"text":"我們全力來達成提供給本席另外第二點請數位發布一周內提供白名單到底要了多少人數資料的欄位到底要了哪些資訊因為這可能有個資或同意權的問題以及這個白名單跟這次波及的網紅的重疊比例我都不需要知道是誰"},{"start":745.573,"end":767.186,"text":"我們保護他們的隱私但是相關的資訊我們希望知道去確認有沒有程序或資安的漏洞大家要一起來努力可以嗎一週內我們會再去掉那個各自的訊息我的要求已經是不需要各自了最後一點請速發部一週內提供關於次長有發文這段期間速發部並沒有發公文"},{"start":771.368,"end":785.7,"text":"也沒有用其他任何方式通知臉書請提供我資料具體指出到底是哪一段期間以及調查了哪些其他的任何方式提供給本席有沒有問題一周內沒有問題嗎事情發生是什麼時候"},{"start":795.885,"end":818.443,"text":"就是禮拜五晚上所以你們通報到他下架不需要時間是不是不是啊所以前五分鐘前一個小時都不需要提供嗎那個委員我在那段話後面還有就是說沒有用其他任何方式通知臉書我記得我是寫說通知臉書下架那些我這一段是完全複製貼上的你要回去看也可以"},{"start":819.584,"end":842.67,"text":"沒有關係我沒有要玩文字遊戲大家一起來協同瞭解情況文字提供給我您剛剛說這段期間是從發生的時候開始所以你的意思是說很可能五分鐘前事發前五分鐘你們可能有提供下架囉下架通報囉前一個小時你們可能有提供下架通報囉有沒有這個可能"},{"start":843.61,"end":854.794,"text":"您要好好仔細的瞭解這個狀況,確認一下您的意識到底是什麼,請速發部具體的回文給我們,這樣可以嗎?可以,可以,沒問題。謝謝,謝謝次長,謝謝主席。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時51分）謝謝主席。有請數發部林次長跟內政部警政署的代表，謝謝。","次長好、副局長您好。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["林副局長信雄：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：前幾天大家真的很驚嚇，因為有非常多的粉專被下架，當你搜尋這些所謂的網紅，結果找到的都是像本席所示圖片右下角的詐騙訊息，反而是真的找不到，假的一大堆，包含我們的證交所也受到波及。","我首先還是要感謝次長週末加班發文，也許也有很多同仁加班，我想公務人員非常辛苦，最後大家都是要一起來努力的。對於次長臉書有提到「至於臉書有沒有接到其他單位的要求，我們並不是很清楚」，在這裡我想要先請教一下警政署副局長，你有沒有發現這很可能是在暗指你們啊？你有沒有發現？"],["林副局長信雄：我並沒有特別……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒感覺嘛！對不對？不知道副局長有沒有發現，林次長發文底下的留言就有網紅貼上去說，他們的粉專恢復之後，第一時間收到臉書的通知，說是來自Criminal 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謝謝部長因為這個很重要啊我們看到其實這幾年我們也都被鼓勵"},{"start":577.899,"end":598.119,"text":"生物多樣性、多元文化、文化來附贈但是原住民的文化這一百年來你應該很清楚日本人進來大概就死掉三分之二國民政府再來透過各種的法令我們的文化曾經一度真的是已經業客磨叽了"},{"start":598.88,"end":617.743,"text":"那這幾年很謝謝從2000年以後從陳水扁政府時期非常的重視原住民的文化復正那族群主流化也是賴清德總統很重要的一個政見所有的原住民轉型正義應該要落實到各個部會"},{"start":618.584,"end":634.313,"text":"所以像很多法令的限制那個是掐死我們的命脈所以呢很高興聽到部長您這麼說願意來想辦法研議那我希望這個要有期程要有積極性的作為可以嗎部長謝謝委員好謝謝部長那也請兩個署可以一同的來努力好謝謝主席"},{"start":644.965,"end":652.171,"text":"謝謝吳立法委員可以提案修正菸酒稅法我會支持我們也會提接著"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1041,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時47分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：等一下會涉及到國庫署、賦稅署。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好！部長，你有聽過小米酒嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：喝過嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：喝過啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好喝嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不錯喝啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：值得推廣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：值得啊！但是不能喝太多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，因為不知不覺很容易醉，因為它的酒精濃度還是有的。","這個傳統釀酒文化在接觸我們國民政府的時代，因為酒的取得越來越便宜，越來越方便，所以就失傳，現在很多時候甚至是透過部落大學，大家透過活動、研習、課程等等，來辦理如何製作傳統的小米酒，可是很容易被檢舉，被檢舉之後，很容易就會被開罰。像這個新聞畫面當年很出名的原因是他本身是頭目，按照文化，祭典一定要有頭目親自釀的酒，可是遭人檢舉，那一次祭典的酒全部被帶走，他們耿耿於懷，他們覺得很奇怪，到現在都還沒有還他們！但是我要講的是為什麼會有人檢舉？因為有觸法的問題，那有哪些法呢？舉個例子，像菸酒管理法，還有它的一些相關規定，現在有提到可以私釀自用，它的規範是每戶100公升以下，且供自用，就不罰，但是如果販售，即便未滿100公升，會開罰私釀跟違法販售。要不然你就要去申請製酒業者，所以我們通常就會去找一些有酒牌的，像一般製酒業者、農民或原住民製酒業者，但是因為會涉及到土地的問題、廠房的問題，其實手續很繁複，而且門檻很高，所以通常也不太有人會去做這樣的事情，導致大家通常都必須要去找一些有酒牌的合作，但是利潤很低。我要講的是，它其實是不利於商業化。","我們先講開罰的問題，我剛剛提到的那些，其實大家一直沒弄懂，當有人檢舉，警察來了，我們都不曉得他到底是怎麼認定的，所以我想先請教部長，以前被抓到有私釀、販賣，再犯的話是加倍處罰，現在那個罰則還在嗎？因為我也關心過、質詢過。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分執行的細節我可不可以請署長來做說明？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝署長。"],["陳署長柏誠：委員好，我們這個都是按照菸酒管理法裡面的規定在處罰，沒有加倍。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那就是稅啊！"],["陳署長柏誠：沒有，不是，稅的部分……"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，112年度我們有調查過，因為委員關心這個問題，我們特別去調查，沒有裁罰的案件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是沒有加倍罰？"],["宋署長秀玲：沒有，就是沒有裁罰……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有些人私釀被抓、被檢舉，他也不過賣個兩瓶，然後他再犯，結果以前是50萬，後來變成100萬。"],["宋署長秀玲：我非常確定我們菸酒稅法112年度沒有裁罰的案件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那沒關係，先確認一下，因為我有確認過，應該是你們修掉了。我先問一下部長，如果是幫鄰居製作，然後收取工本費，這樣子有沒有違法？"],["莊部長翠雲：法律應該沒有禁止這樣做啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有禁止這樣做？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊，幫鄰居製作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：再請教一下，如果朋友來到家裡，看到他自製的小米酒，他就想要跟主人說，不要送啦，我補貼你一點成本。這樣算不算販售？違法？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們朋友之間互相的交往，這種情形也不是販售。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是有的人會檢舉，說他這個是用賣的嗎？你有沒有給他錢？有，他就檢舉啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：那這個要看實情，我覺得要合乎所謂的情理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請問像這種祭典時陳列在那邊的祭典用酒有沒有違法？為什麼他沒收之後也不返還？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，您是不是可以告訴我們實際案例，我們確實去了解一下到底是什麼樣情形，以及引用的是哪一個法規，是不是確實是這樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那就再到辦公室，我會把這些案件做一個釐清。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，讓我們瞭解一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我要這樣子講？因為就是有那個法在，所以就會有人檢舉。有檢舉，但那個認定也不知道怎麼認定，然後就開罰。其實這個是很微薄、很小的事情，可是我們的族人往往會面對很嚴重的罰則跟罰金，說實在，他們來陳情，有時候我們也不知道怎麼幫忙，其實你們這些財稅單位也很同情，可是法就是在那邊，也不知道要怎麼幫忙，而且是很重、很重。","接著是第二個問題，財政部、國庫署、賦稅署可能不覺得你們跟文化有關係，但是其實就是跟文化有關係，因為你們已經變相的去限制文化的發展。我特別來講一下菸酒稅法，我們來看一下第八條有關課稅的規定，啤酒是每公升徵收26元，其他釀酒是每公升按酒精成分每度徵收新臺幣7元，蒸餾酒類的也是每公升每度，再製酒類也是每公升每度，料理酒每公升徵收新臺幣9元，其他酒類每公升每度徵收7元，酒精是每公升徵收15元。所以我們可以看到那個有「每度」的就很可怕了，以一瓶1,000c.c.的小米酒為例，假設它的販售價格一般是賣350元，可是因為它的酒精濃度15%，就變成要課105元的稅金，所以利潤很薄。","我們常常講，文化不應該是只有在博物館裡面的博物館化，我們的文化如果沒有辦法邁向經濟的行為，它就無以為繼。我常常覺得原住民的文化受到很多限制，所以聯合國也一直很重視這個問題。我要講的是，其實我們在很多的協定，像臺紐經濟貿易協定，這個是我們前幾年很重要的第一個國際協定，它就有原住民專章，當然，很多年前我們在吵的米酒之亂，它也是因為WTO的互惠原則，可是我們很認真、很努力的談判，最後談出一個料理酒每公升9元。我要說的是，我們能不能夠也很努力的去為原住民在地的本土文化做一個談判？因為這也是我們的飲食文化，我們也可以用原住民專章的概念去做研議調整。我想聽聽看部長您的看法。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，原住民的文化其實也是生活的一部分，就是他們的日常生活，比如說釀酒也是他們歷史長久以來所存下來的，在這個部分能不能做一些特別性、不同的規範，我想這個部分我們可以研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。因為這個很重要，其實這幾年，我們也都被鼓勵生物多樣性、多元文化、文化復振，但是你應該很清楚，這一百年來，原住民的文化在日本人進來後大概就死掉三分之二，國民政府再來，透過各種的法令，我們的文化曾經一度已經是葉克膜級了。這幾年很謝謝，從2000年以後，從陳水扁政府時期非常重視原住民的文化復振，族群主流化也是賴清德總統很重要的一個政見，所有的原住民轉型正義應該要落實到各個部會，像很多法令的限制，這個是掐死我們的命脈，所以很高興聽到部長您這麼說，願意想辦法研議。我希望這個要有期程，要有積極性的作為，部長，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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所以從川普他"},{"start":46.885,"end":71.958,"text":"進選時候的政見包括他對於所謂科徵基本關稅進一步提高不公平國家的關稅稅率這個部簽看起來他在1月20號就職以後應該會朝這個方向來進行所以我們目前2023看起來是400多億塊500億那我們是不是所謂的不公平貿易國家在我們的認知裡面我們會被列為不公平貿易國家"},{"start":73.302,"end":94.752,"text":"這個部分其實在上週的時候我們的召委在委會有提到專案報告我們覺得要關注這個議題沒錯這個是非常有可能的也就是說我們對他的這個差順差一直在擴大的話所以我們現在是一個要等著給保護費然後不知道保護費夠不夠的國家我們一直在插雷彈"},{"start":96.512,"end":117.438,"text":"關務署這邊我們有所謂的關稅也是我們的工具那目前為止如果按照川普他們的智庫提出來的有幾個國家第一個是中國第二印度歐盟臺灣越南跟泰國如果按照他們的標準要提升所謂的平均關稅差距的話嚴重影響的大概是印度他會提升到88%"},{"start":119.558,"end":143.806,"text":"逆差將近會減少88%臺灣更嚴重會影響到59%第三名是越南44%也就是說他對中國的逆差還沒有像我們這個差距來的這麼大所以其實公研院我們也很擔心接下去會影響到的關稅我想請問一下如果他們提升關稅部長我們有沒有相對應的武器可以使用"},{"start":146.271,"end":159.023,"text":"他們對我們加徵關稅,我們也可以對他加徵關稅嗎?我覺得這個部分變成是一個貿易的一個互相的一個報復。那我們看到我們輸出到美國的主要的產品裡面"},{"start":159.926,"end":160.046,"text":"臺灣的關稅沒什麼用是嗎?"},{"start":187.053,"end":200.524,"text":"因為我們是WTO的會員,所以相關的稅率我們是按照部委的...那他提升之後WTO不會對他們做處理嗎?不會,因為美國太強了。來,署長,你有什麼工具?你有辦法嗎?"},{"start":202.06,"end":230.158,"text":"報告委員我們的那個稅率都是立法院要三讀通過是所以我們立法院要幫你的忙否則你沒有工具是嗎就是各部會如果評估的話這個是我們接下去要做相關的處理重點是我再講一條一次要付保護費要知道自己要付什麼保護費然後我們有什麼因應之道有什麼辦法可以應對我想這個是我們今天關心的焦點好嗎好署長請回我想請部長留步那請賦稅署署長"},{"start":231.957,"end":232.037,"text":"國產署署長"},{"start":237.455,"end":264.451,"text":"部長其實我們在司法院的統計裡面看到最高行政法院他其實有非常多行政訴訟的狀況那行政訴訟的數量裡面統計出來對第一名的叫做土地事件大概有118件的行政訴訟那這是最高法院稅捐事件大概是113件這兩個就將近佔了三成到四成所以土地事件稅捐事件大概都是財政部的案子對吧"},{"start":265.322,"end":283.83,"text":"你們一年有多少相關的訴訟案件?您是指司法院裡面還是行政法院裡面?司法院統計年報最高行政法院有統計第一名叫土地第二名叫稅捐第一個跟委員報告國產署這個部分大概他是屬於私權的部分所以他應該是走民事訴訟的部分"},{"start":284.25,"end":309.485,"text":"在行政救濟的部分其實大部分他不會走到行政救濟那邊來所以土地的案件大概土地的案件大概可能就是屬於一般的民事案件大概跟國產署之間的其實應該沒有那麼大的高的數量我們現在統計的是行政訴訟案對行政訴訟來說土地的案件應該不會在國產署這邊的沒關係我現在問你一年要花有多少這樣的訴訟件數復稅數就復稅的部分請署長來就統計數字"},{"start":313.448,"end":326.842,"text":"我跟委員報告目前我們手上的統計數字就是打到行政訴訟的如果是中央稅的部分佔比是大概百分之我以112年度為例大概佔比是8.45%就2744件裡面屬於稅捐案件是232件"},{"start":331.667,"end":360.283,"text":"那地方的部分呢是2319件裡面稅捐的案件17件占比是0.73%相對的是說國產署還有賦稅署其實跟民眾的官司其實不少那在112年的時候行政院曾經頒定一個計畫就是有關律師法跟專計轉任公務員條例增訂了所謂機關跟公立學校可以設置所謂的公職律師的制度部長"},{"start":361.663,"end":384.372,"text":"這個公職律師的制度要延攬一定職業經歷的律師來機關裡面提供相關的服務還有參與法律案的研議但是在112年提出這個計畫之後財政部如果依照你們有這麼多的相關的訴訟也好不管是民事的還是行政訴訟你有考慮引進行政院這樣的計畫嗎"},{"start":386.636,"end":415.034,"text":"目前為止好像只有衛福部還有國防部有來申請財政部從頭到尾連提計畫都沒有是嗎對我們大概調查過其實認為沒有這樣的一個需要因為目前相關的我們相關的訴訟會由我們內部的法務人員來做如果有需要的話也會委請外部的律師所以部長我想問一下請你統計你現在所有的機關你一年有花了多少相關的費用在請律師"},{"start":416.63,"end":426.917,"text":"所以如果按照你剛剛講的那些訴訟因為行政訴訟是律師強制代理所以如果有的話是不是會變成負稅署他的一個負擔"},{"start":430.078,"end":453.428,"text":"這個部分我們來調查一下相關我們在……所以我的意思是說行政院有這樣的計畫相關的單位有提出需求但是我們看到可能最多行政訴訟的機關叫財政部但是他們完全不甩這個行政院這個機制有點奇怪啦這個機制難道我們行政院推動來之後自己的機關都不願意參與喔這很奇怪"},{"start":455.409,"end":482.37,"text":"我現在看到教育部還希望有17個內政部2個國防部3個財政部0個欸財政部有這麼多行政訴訟拜託我覺得公職律師如果是有需要的話其實可以節省我們的成本而且也可以讓更多在你的內部就可以做相關的處理如果你花的錢可以請到公職律師在裡面可以節省掉成本第二個也可以增加"},{"start":483.547,"end":503.932,"text":"期關參與行政院推出這個法案推出這個計畫的好意啊好不好所以財政部所來不考慮行政院這個計畫不是不考慮我們還是要瞭解一下第一個就是實際的效益情況112年到現在了已經推了一年多了我們也調查過只有國防部還有衛福部所以其他的機關我覺得財政部也應該參與討論好嗎這是你算一算你每年花的錢跟你"},{"start":511.997,"end":524.435,"text":"用公職律師花的錢還有效益上面我覺得希望你們做個評估尤其是你們訴訟大概是全部機關裡面應該是最多的我們在效益的部分再來考量"},{"start":525.748,"end":546.644,"text":"那就麻煩一個月之內把這個部分回覆給我最後一個問題就是部長你這幾天大概都在討論財化法的問題啦財化法現在國民黨的修法版本好像還沒有確定但是民進黨還有行政院目前也是不推動相關的修法但是部長在今年11月"},{"start":548.685,"end":567.042,"text":"蕭美琴副總統曾經參與了工商總會的慶祝大會。工商總會在2023、2024的全國工業總會白皮書裡面都有明白的提出來他們建議要修正財政收支劃分法。部長有看到他們的白皮書嗎?"},{"start":569.644,"end":581.34,"text":"財務法的修正,相關的黨團有提出...所以如果說執政黨要用在野黨修財務法是為了掏空國家所以也是把工業總會列為掏空國家的一個對象嗎?"},{"start":584.089,"end":600.841,"text":"最主要是說因為在沒有完整的討論審慎的規劃之前所以我們希望你們完整討論希望你們審慎規劃但是不是提出修正意見就是掏空國家我要再次強調工業總會也提一樣的意見財政部不要再假裝沒看見"},{"start":606.878,"end":627.069,"text":"這個白皮書已經2023、2024的白皮書都已經做成而且副總統也是參加工業總會的慶祝大會我想還是一樣接下去財委會包括院會都會處理財化法我希望部長你們還是要提出你們認為多少的垂直分配是可以接受的"},{"start":627.589,"end":640.82,"text":"如果在一個國家可以超徵4千億的情況下補足2千多億讓地方政府能夠多一點財源並不是萬惡不赦部長我希望在我們協商之前可以看到行政院的版本"},{"start":642.163,"end":649.489,"text":"跟委員報告還是講財化法的修正要審慎的規劃而且要充分的討論目前的期限還是非常大的是因為在事權跟錢權必須要相配合的來做討論但是事權完全沒有討論而是只有權權的部分來做討論的話"},{"start":670.582,"end":672.709,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員 接著我們請吳立華委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我想請部長，還有關務署署長。"],["主席：莊部長、彭署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長、署長，我想大家都在討論川普上臺之後未來的局勢，臺灣跟美國自2023年到現在所謂的貿易情勢，我們逆差大概有多少？一年的逆差。"],["莊部長翠雲：對美國？"],["黃委員珊珊：對美國！"],["莊部長翠雲：對美國，目前1到10月有大概五百多億。"],["黃委員珊珊：五百多億嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，在歷年……"],["黃委員珊珊：你可能要對著麥克風說。"],["莊部長翠雲：在歷年來說，其實我們對美國的差一直是在提升的，就是對美國的出口是在擴增的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，所以從川普在競選時候的政見，包括他對於所謂課徵基本關稅進一步提高不公平國家的關稅稅率，這個目前看起來，他在1月20號就職以後應該會朝這個方向來進行。所以2023年看起來是四百多億，快五百億，那我們是不是所謂的不公平貿易國家？在我們的認知裡面，我們會不會被列為不公平貿易國家？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分其實在上週的時候，我們在財委會有提出專案報告，我們覺得要關注這個議題。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，這個是非常有可能的。"],["莊部長翠雲：也就是說，我們對它的順差一直再擴大的話。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們現在是一個要等著給保護費，然後不知道保護費夠不夠的國家，我們一直在「剉咧等」！關務署這邊，我們有所謂的關稅，也是我們的工具，目前為止，如果按照川普他們的智庫提出來的有幾個國家，第一個是中國，第二是印度、歐盟、臺灣、越南跟泰國，如果按照他們的標準，要提升所謂的平均關稅差距的話，嚴重影響的大概是印度，它會提升到88%，逆差將近會減少88%，臺灣也滿嚴重的，會影響到59%，第三名是越南44%；也就是說，它對中國的逆差還沒有像我們這個差距來得這麼大，所以，其實工研院、我們也很擔心接下來會影響到的關稅，我想請問一下，如果他們提升關稅，部長，我們有沒有相對應的武器可以使用？如果他們對我們加徵關稅，我們也可以對他加徵關稅嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得這個部分變成是一個貿易的互相報復，我們看到我們輸出到美國的主要產品裡面是AI相關……"],["黃委員珊珊：AI這個影響比較大。"],["莊部長翠雲：他們的需要量很大，所以他們內部變成是要承受高關稅，所以相對他們的成本就提高。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我只問我們有沒有工具？我們有沒有方法？我們在我們的關稅上面有沒有一些相對應的工具可以使用，而去讓這件事情不要發生？這是我關心的！所以我們臺灣的關稅沒什麼用，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是這麼說──沒什麼用，因為我們是WTO會員國。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，那他也是啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：所以相關稅率我們是按照互惠……"],["黃委員珊珊：那他提升之後，WTO不會對他們做處理嗎？不會！因為美國太強了？","來，署長，你有什麼工具？你有辦法嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我們的稅率都是立法院要三讀通過。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我們立法院要幫你的忙，否則，你沒有工具，是嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：就是各部會如果評估有需要的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個是我們接下去要做相關的處理……"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：重點是我再強調一次，要付保護費，也要知道自己要付什麼保護費，還有我們有什麼因應之道，有什麼辦法可以應對，我想這個是我們今天關心的焦點，好嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：是，好。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，署長請回。我想請部長留步，另請賦稅署署長，還有國產署署長。","部長，我們在司法院的統計裡面看到最高行政法院其實有非常多行政訴訟的狀況，行政訴訟的數量裡面統計出來，第一名的叫做土地事件，大概有118件，這是最高法院的，稅捐事件大概是113件，這兩個就占了將近三成到四成，土地事件、稅捐事件大概都是財政部的案子，對吧！你們一年有多少相關的訴訟案件？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是指司法院裡面，還是行政法院裡面？"],["黃委員珊珊：在司法院統計年報，最高行政法院有統計，第一名叫土地，第二名叫稅捐。"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個跟委員報告，國產署這個部分大概是屬於私權的部分，所以應該是走民事訴訟的部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：其實大部分不會走到行政救濟裡面來……"],["黃委員珊珊：行政訴訟的部分大概會是國稅局。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以土地的案件大概屬於一般的民事案件，國產署的應該沒有那麼高的數量，稅務的……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在這個統計的是行政訴訟。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，以行政訴訟來說，土地的案件應該在國產署的不會有什麼數量……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係，我現在問你一年有多少這樣的訴訟件數？賦稅署。"],["莊部長翠雲：就賦稅的部分，請署長來就統計數字說明。"],["宋署長秀玲：我跟委員報告，目前我們手上的統計數字，就打到行政訴訟的，如果是中央稅的部分，我以112年度為例，大概占比是8.45%，就是2,744件裡面屬於稅捐案件的是232件，地方的部分是2,319件裡面的稅捐案件是17件，占比是0.73%……"],["黃委員珊珊：相對來說，國產署及賦稅署跟民眾的官司其實不少。在112年的時候，行政院曾經頒訂一個計畫，就是有關律師法與專技轉任公務人員條例增訂了機關及公立學校可以設置所謂公職律師的制度，部長，這個公職律師的制度要延攬一定執業經歷的律師來機關裡面提供相關的服務，還有參與法律案的研議，但是在112年提出這個計畫之後，財政部，依照你們有這麼多的相關訴訟，不管是民事的，還是行政訴訟也好，你有考慮引進行政院這樣的計畫嗎？目前為止，好像只有衛福部，還有國防部，有來申請，財政部從頭到尾連提計畫都沒有，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們大概調查過，認為沒有這樣的需要，因為我們目前相關的……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以賦稅署也沒有必要，打這麼多官司也沒必要？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們相關的訴訟會由內部的法務人員來做，如果有需要的話，也會委請外部的律師，我們另外用採購法的方式，個案的來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，部長，我想問一下，請你統計你現在所有的機關一年花了多少相關的費用在請律師？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們來統計一下，可以啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：如果按照你剛剛講的，因為行政訴訟是律師強制代理，所以如果有的話，是不是會變成賦稅署的負擔？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，這個部分，我們來調查一下我們在執行上訴訟……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的意思是行政院有這樣的計畫，相關的單位也有提出需求，但是我們看到可能最多行政訴訟的機關叫財政部，他們完全不甩行政院這個機制，有點奇怪啦！難道行政院推動這個機制之後，自己的機關都不願意參與，這很奇怪耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們再來……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在看到，教育部還希望有17個，內政部2個，國防部3個，財政部0個耶！財政部有這麼多行政訴訟，拜託！我覺得公職律師如果有需要的話，其實可以節省我們的成本，也可以讓更多在你內部就可以做相關處理，如果你花的錢可以在裡面請到公職律師就可以節省掉成本，第二個、也可以增加機關參與行政院推出這個計畫的好意，好不好？所以財政部從來不考慮行政院這個計畫？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是不考慮，我們還是要瞭解一下，第一個就是實際的效益情況……"],["黃委員珊珊：112年到現在，已經推了1年多了……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們已經有調查過……"],["黃委員珊珊：只有國防部，還有衛福部，其他的機關，我覺得財政部也應該參與討論，好嗎？這是……"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們回去再研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：你算一算你們每一年花的錢及你用公職律師花的錢，還有效益上面，我希望你們做評估，尤其是你們的訴訟應該是全部機關裡面最多的，好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會吧！我們就效益的部分再來考量。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，就麻煩1個月之內把這個部分回復給我。","最後一個問題，部長，你這幾天大概都在討論財劃法的問題，現在國民黨的財劃法修法版本好像還沒有確定，民進黨還有行政院目前也是不推動相關修法，部長，但是在今年11月蕭美琴副總統曾經參與了工業總會的慶祝大會，工業總會在2023、2024的全國工業總會白皮書裡面都有明白的提出來，他們建議要修正財政收支劃分法，部長有看到他們的白皮書嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我瞭解，財劃法的修正，相關的黨團也提出版本……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以如果執政黨要說在野黨修財劃法是為了掏空國家，是把工業總會也列為掏空國家的一個對象嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是這麼說，最主要是因為在沒有完整的討論、審慎的規劃之前，倉促的提出其實並不好……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我們希望你們完整討論，希望你們審慎規劃，但是不是提出修正意見就是掏空國家，我要再次強調，工業總會也提一樣的意見，財政部不要再假裝沒看見……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們沒有假裝沒看見……"],["黃委員珊珊：工業總會2023、2024的白皮書都已經做成，而且副總統也去參加工業總會的慶祝大會，我想還是一樣，接下去財委會，包括院會，都會處理財劃法，部長，我希望你們還是要提出你們認為多少的垂直分配是可以接受的，如果在一個國家可以超徵4,000億的情況下，補足二千多億，讓地方政府能夠多一點財源，並不是萬惡不赦！部長，我希望在我們協商之前可以看到行政院的版本。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，還是講財劃法的修正要審慎的規劃，而且要充分的討論，目前的歧見還是非常大……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以不要再說提出修法意見就是掏空國家，否則，你就是把工總也列為掏空國家的元凶喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，因為事權與錢權必須要相配合的來做討論，但是事權完全沒有討論，而是只就錢權的部分來做討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，部長，聽聽外界的意見，聽聽大家的意見，聽聽全部人的意見，不是只有在野黨的意見。以上。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。接著請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"157032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87b3af2a3a24c2fdb8117a57b012903f1cd5656bc25be71a67ebd3dc688115573a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委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11:57:12","影片長度":"00:10:33","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案及(十)委員林思銘等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」案。【第（十）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案。【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-18","start_time":"2024-11-18T11:46:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T11:57:12+08:00","duration":633,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.27034375,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.51034375,"end":11.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.99534375,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.020343750000002,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.15096875,"end":17.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.602218750000002,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.188468750000002,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.02721875,"end":24.094718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.36471875,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.165343750000005,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.77784375,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.81159375,"end":83.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.87034375,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.08471875000001,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.10346875000002,"end":139.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.68534375000002,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.62096875,"end":140.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.54909375,"end":142.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.48971875,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.56221875,"end":174.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.95721875,"end":175.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.18909375,"end":177.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.69096875000002,"end":195.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.49221875,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.87596875,"end":182.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.23721875,"end":193.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.02159375000002,"end":195.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.18159375000002,"end":209.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.27659375000002,"end":222.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.02284375000002,"end":214.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.62534375,"end":220.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.30846875,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.66284375,"end":249.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.25346875000002,"end":251.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.54846875,"end":252.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.88596875000002,"end":256.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.81409375,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.83096875,"end":253.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.88159375,"end":254.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.01659375000003,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.03346875000003,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.09221875000003,"end":278.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.62346875000003,"end":258.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.89346875,"end":258.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.65409375,"end":306.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.10721875,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.61221875,"end":304.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.19409375000004,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.61534375,"end":319.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.96409375,"end":321.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.98096875000005,"end":331.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.19846875,"end":341.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.84284375000004,"end":344.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.74534375,"end":35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的一個統計數字今天很多委員都提到"},{"start":66.385,"end":80.301,"text":"那現在呢在針對網路銷售的這一個部分要怎麼阻絕第一個我提我看到公路局給我們一個資料10月17號建立一個所謂的網路平台的巡查程式是嗎?局長是網路的巡查平台對10月17號開始"},{"start":85.707,"end":114.477,"text":"這一個網路的平台的查詢程式的查貨並通知業者下架512件還沒請到上議院那這一個512件裡面那為什麼到現在連有委員跟其他委員跟我都在網路上還看得到是網路平台不配合呢下架不夠快嗎包括數位發展部都說有跟其他這些社群網路平台呢有建立一個通報下架的窗口那包括Yahoo"},{"start":115.197,"end":124.508,"text":"等等的這個網購的平台也都說願意配合但是速發部那邊給我們的資料是下架41件一個下架512件一個下架41件部長這個數字你滿意嗎?"},{"start":130.632,"end":145.851,"text":"五百一十二件是我們通知啦通知而已還沒有下架嘛對不對那速發部那邊是實際有下架的是41件但你看喔光是這兩個數字就告訴我們什麼這下架的效率有夠慢"},{"start":146.912,"end":174.733,"text":"你已經巡查到了你通知業者要下架512件你通知了那速發部呢負責去溝通建立的通報下架窗口可是已到目前為止我看到的是41件512件裡面只有41件下架那難怪我們委員先在國人在這個平台上面看到可以買這個或甚至能客製化偽造的車牌比比皆是啊"},{"start":176.223,"end":193.168,"text":"部長你認為這該怎麼辦我覺得這個數字上確實有落差但是網購的部分都已經下架了那現在比較麻煩的是他個人的臉書或者是他的LINE的群組的部分這個部分是還沒有處理好那這個部分應該要我們會跟速發部這邊也來協調看一下怎麼樣加強所以你要怎麼辦"},{"start":197.433,"end":221.679,"text":"我認為警政署可能也有拜託一起啦警政署也有一個通報下架的窗口嘛那至於呢這個速發部跟警政署跟我們交通部拜託你們跨部會去這不是只有喝咖啡聊天的事情而已這是非常要審慎的去面對而且要積極的查處跟解決問題啊不然的話你看這數字落差這麼大"},{"start":222.819,"end":241.693,"text":"好部長這是第一個第二個我要跟你講一件事我們要查假車牌之前要先比對比對它是正還是假那就是什麼建立資料庫以你們現在有建立的資料庫有兩件事一個是公務局說建立一個疑似偽造號牌的揮名單揮名單那目前在這個揮名單裡面偽變造、吊銷、註銷會繳回等等是不是171筆"},{"start":253.489,"end":278.103,"text":"應該不只啦。灰名單是171筆。各位報告。來,我現在就是要跟你探討這件事嘛。你所謂的疑似偽造號牌灰名單,現在的171筆,這個到底包含什麼東西嗎?因為你說要交由警察機關或停管機關要合作,要把這個灰名單提供給警政單位,就是警政署來建立所謂的AI巡防系統。"},{"start":278.923,"end":294.564,"text":"各位網友我們現在所有的就是車牌被吊扣、吊銷、註銷因為代表就是說他車子不能再用了所以他比較有機會說他可能會去使用假車牌所以這個吊註銷的這個大概幾十萬筆的資料全部都有給警察機關"},{"start":296.325,"end":319.292,"text":"另外171筆是民眾就是說因為他已經來就是說他來報案申訴說我的車牌已經被偽造了所以這個還有另外已經被偽造的171筆那為什麼叫回名單是因為你還沒有辦法證實他到底是不是偽造車牌還是所以像檢察機關其實他們就是說我們把所有的這個資料都已經在他們的AI的資料庫系統所以像檢察機關現在辨別非常快"},{"start":320.051,"end":327.223,"text":"那我可以請教嗎那在公路局像體系下所謂的AI巡防系統圖的這個會名單裡面可能會巡查到的除了ETEC還有哪些系統可以"},{"start":332.973,"end":344.04,"text":"現在其實包括就是說我們警察機關還有監理機關還有這個地方的停管機關大概就是說在路上行走的或是停車的大概就是說那個資料庫裡面都有這一個可能因為你的車牌已經被吊註銷不能所以你不可能在路上還會再行駛嘛所以他一查出來的話就有可能"},{"start":358.968,"end":377.614,"text":"有所謂的疑似偽造號牌的這個回名單也在裡面那我強請教警政署那我們所謂的AI巡防系統我看到在我們這一次總預算裡面你們有編列這樣的預算那一億多 對不對副署長知道嗎AI巡防系統"},{"start":378.632,"end":406.084,"text":"我們本來就現在就有在建置警察的補助系統現在就有在建置那交通部給我們的資料我們會輸入進去輸入進去以後我們警方在巡邏的時候透過那個系統如果發現是偽變造車牌就會攔查起地那現在各地各地的這個警察局統統都有這個巡防系統是全國一致還是給地方政府"},{"start":407.154,"end":417.902,"text":"市警局﹖可能就在我們警方的設備裡面在警方全國的設備裡面那只是每年編的預算是要來更新升級我們的AI巡防系統嗎?"},{"start":420.407,"end":446.079,"text":"因為目前那個我剛剛在那個報告裡面的那個系統裡面是現在是有六都裡面有幾個幾部的車裝置在裡面那這個對嘛這個系統部署長你講出真相了那再來明年不是全國都有也不是你剛剛回答我的是在你的警政署的巡防系統裡面耶沒有錯目前是沒有"},{"start":446.459,"end":451.901,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":466.63,"end":471.533,"text":"副所長你要先問清楚再來回答我啦因為我看到有這一筆預算嘛那所以你們要建立這個AI巡防系統不是"},{"start":484.56,"end":501.626,"text":"以現有的系統嘛而是你們另外在建制我要跟他說它比較數位化、科技化現代版的一個AI巡防系統以六都才在試辦而且呢全國以六都來講有這個AI巡防系統的警車根本不到10%嘛那你這一筆預算執行下去之後你認為幾年內要建制到"},{"start":510.762,"end":539.138,"text":"百分之百還是你原來的KPI就沒有達到百分之百因為那個有一個中長期計劃啦詳細的計劃我不是很清楚分三年來來來你事後給我這個書面報告我要知道你要建制的期程你即將要花多少預算我什麼時候可以國人可以預期說我可以建立這個全台灣的一個AI巡防的一個聯防系統"},{"start":540.118,"end":565.107,"text":"為什麼這個重要這個要搭配剛剛我問交通部不僅僅是公路局的一個監理系統還有地方政府的庭管系統還有你警政署自己的AI聯防系統這樣子加起來才能夠讓這一個假車牌也好偽造車牌也好我們才能夠真正的去判讀真假也才能夠真正做到百分之百的防堵嘛"},{"start":566.227,"end":569.73,"text":"這個是我們的用意,我希望預算編下去,極快下去,要真的做,要強化數據資料庫,要加速查緝量能,那也才能達到什麼?我們現在不是只有修法,修法當然一定要修,我自己也有提版本,要修刑法、修道教條例,包括我們願意等願版。"},{"start":589.429,"end":613.634,"text":"但是呢要抓得到才能夠罰得到也才能遏止啊執行面也很重要啊是不是部長你同意吧是非常同意委員的說法所以我拜託是不是在接下來用最快的時間最快的速度跟警政署內政部警政署跟我們地方政府還有呢跟相關包括數位發展部很重要我們從源頭到"},{"start":616.434,"end":630.228,"text":"後端的查緝到剛剛說的利用數位化、科技化的一個聯防系統這個每一個事情都很重要都要做到修法當然我們支持好不好是,好,謝謝委員畫布會的聯防我們會來努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時46分）謝謝魯召委。主席，我們是不是請部長、公路局跟警政署，警政署今天是……"],["主席：請陳部長、陳局長、李副署長。"],["何委員欣純：是副署長，好。部長好、局長好、副署長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長，今天很多委員跟本席一樣都在關心假車牌的問題，假車牌媒體報導也很多，我們也相信警政署跟各地的警察同仁們也很用心、用力地在打擊、在抓，但是防不勝防，剛剛游委員在講，即使到現在網路上都還看得到在販賣假車牌。我現在就要請教，我們要打擊假車牌，當然修法是我們一定要做的，但是上游要防堵，下游要查緝，源頭的打假車牌、查假車牌是第一步，對不對？這個我想部長也同意。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：要怎麼查假車牌？以公路局給我們的統計數字來看，今天很多委員都提到，現在針對網路銷售的部分要怎麼阻絕？第一個，我看到公路局給我們的資料提到，10月17日建立一個網路平臺的巡查程式，局長，是嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們有一個平臺巡查程式。"],["何委員欣純：好，10月17日開始，網路平臺巡查程式查獲並通知業者下架有512件，這512件裡面，為什麼到現在連游委員跟其他委員跟我在網路上還看得到？是網路平臺不配合呢？下架不夠快嗎？包括數位發展部都說，有跟其他社群網路平臺建立通報下架的窗口，包括Yahoo等等的網購平臺也都說願意配合，但是數發部給我們的資料是下架41件。一個是下架512件，一個是下架41件，部長，這個數字你滿意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，512件是我們通知並且移送……"],["何委員欣純：通知而已，還沒有下架，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：數發部那邊是實際有下架的，是41件。"],["何委員欣純：你看，光是這兩個數字就告訴我們什麼？這下架的效率有夠慢，你已經巡查到了，你通知業者要下架512件，你通知了；數發部負責去溝通，建立了通報下架窗口，可是到目前為止我看到的是41件，512件裡面只有41件下架！難怪我們委員和國人現在在這個平臺上還看到可以買，甚至可以客製化偽造的車牌，比比皆是啊！部長，你認為這該怎麼辦？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我覺得這個數字上確實有落差，但是網購的部分……"],["何委員欣純：落差很大！"],["陳部長世凱：網購的部分都已經下架了，現在比較麻煩的是他個人的臉書或是他的LINE群組的部分，這個部分是還沒有處理好的，關於這個部分，我們會跟數發部來協調看要怎麼樣加強。"],["何委員欣純：所以你要怎麼辦？我認為可能也要拜託警政署一起，因為警政署也有一個通報下架的窗口。至於數發部、警政署跟交通部，拜託你們跨部會去處理，這不是只有喝咖啡、聊天的事情而已，這是要非常審慎的去面對，而且要積極的查處跟解決問題。不然的話，你看這數字落差這麼大。這是第一個。第二個，我要跟你講一件事，我們要查假車牌之前要先比對，比對它是真還是假，那就是什麼？建立資料庫。以你們現在有建立的資料庫，有兩件事，一個是公路局說建立一個疑似偽造號牌的灰名單，目前在這個灰名單裡面，包括偽、變造、吊銷、註銷未繳回等等，是不是171筆？局長。"],["陳部長世凱：應該不只，灰名單是171筆，但是……"],["陳局長文瑞：不只，跟委員報告……"],["何委員欣純：我現在就是要跟你探討這一件事，所謂的疑似偽造號牌灰名單現在有171筆，到底包含什麼東西？因為你說要交由警察機關或停管機關合作，要把這個灰名單提供給警政單位，就是警政署，建立所謂的AI巡防系統。"],["陳局長文瑞：現在所有的車牌被吊扣、吊銷、註銷，就代表車子不能再用了，所以比較有機會會使用假車牌。這個吊、註銷大概幾十萬筆資料全部都有給警察機關……"],["何委員欣純：都有移給他？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。另外171筆是民眾已經來報案、申訴，他的車牌已經被偽造了，所以還有另外已經被偽造的171筆也納進來。"],["何委員欣純：為什麼叫灰名單？是因為你還沒有辦法證實到底是不是偽造車牌，還是……"],["陳局長文瑞：對，我們把所有資料都已經放在警察機關的AI資料庫系統，所以警察機關現在辨別非常快。"],["何委員欣純：我可以請教嗎？那在公路局現在的體系下，所謂的AI巡防系統，灰名單裡面可能會巡查到的，除了eTag，還有哪些系統可以？"],["陳局長文瑞：現在包括警察機關、監理機關，還有地方的停管機關，大概就是在……"],["何委員欣純：三個機關合作？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["何委員欣純：所以中央跟地方都有達成共識，三個機關聯防？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，路上行走的或是停車的，資料庫裡面都有，因為車牌已經被吊、註銷，所以不可能還會在路上行駛，一查出來的話就有可能車牌是偽造的。"],["何委員欣純：包括所謂的疑似偽造號牌灰名單也在裡面？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["何委員欣純：我想請教警政署，所謂的AI巡防系統，我看到在這一次總預算裡面，你們有編列這樣的預算，一億多，對不對？副署長知道嗎？AI巡防系統。"],["李副署長政曉：我們本來現在就有在建置警勤輔助系統。"],["何委員欣純：現在就有在建置？"],["李副署長政曉：交通部給我們的資料，我們會輸入進去，輸入進去以後，警方在巡邏的時候，透過那個系統，如果發現是偽、變造車牌，就會攔查取締。"],["何委員欣純：現在各地警察局通通都有這個巡防系統？是全國一致，還是給地方政府市警局？"],["李副署長政曉：本來就在警方的設備裡面。"],["何委員欣純：在警方全國的設備裡面？"],["李副署長政曉：對。"],["何委員欣純：只是每年編了預算要來更新、升級AI巡防系統嗎？"],["李副署長政曉：我剛剛有報告，目前那個系統在六都是有裝置在幾部車裡面……"],["何委員欣純：對嘛！副署長，你講出真相了。"],["李副署長政曉：這個系統就是巡邏的時候……再來，明年度分年再建置，目前……"],["何委員欣純：不是全國都有，也不是你剛剛回答我的在警政署的巡防系統裡面。"],["李副署長政曉：沒有錯，目前是只有幾個縣市在試辦，明年、後年會再增加預算。"],["何委員欣純：沒有！所以現在六都也都還沒有，對不對？"],["李副署長政曉：對，六都有，但不是全部的警車。"],["何委員欣純：六都都有，但不是全部的警局，也不是全部的警車，對不對？"],["李副署長政曉：對。"],["何委員欣純：以目前試辦的，全國大概幾%的警車有？"],["李副署長政曉：應該差不多10%左右而已，所以我們……"],["何委員欣純：不到10%！"],["李副署長政曉：應該不到10%，因為只有試辦，第一年是試辦。"],["何委員欣純：副署長，你要先問清楚再來回答我，因為我看到有這一筆預算，所以你們要建立AI巡防系統，不是以現有的系統，而是你們要另外再建置比較數位化、科技化、現代版的AI巡防系統，六都才在試辦，而且全國以六都來講，有AI巡防系統的警車根本不到10%。這一筆預算執行下去之後，你認為幾年內要建置到百分之百？還是原來的KPI就沒有要達到百分之百？"],["李副署長政曉：有一個中長期計畫，我不是很清楚詳細計畫的全部內容，但是我們有分三年來建置。"],["何委員欣純：你事後給我書面報告，我要知道建置的期程、即將要花多少預算，讓國人可以預期建立全臺灣的AI巡防聯防系統。為什麼這個重要？這個要搭配剛剛我問交通部的，不僅僅是公路局的監理系統，還有地方政府的停管系統，還有警政署自己的AI聯防系統，這樣加起來，不論假車牌也好，偽造車牌也好，我們才能夠真正的去判讀真假，也才能夠真正做到百分之百的防堵，這是我們的用意。我希望預算編下去、錢花下去要真的做，做還要做得有效，這就是我說的，要強化數據資料庫，加速查緝量能，也才能達到什麼？我們現在不是只有修法，修法當然一定要修，我自己有提版本要修刑法、修道交條例，包括我們願意等院版，但是要抓得到，才能夠罰得到，也才能遏止，執行面也很重要，是不是？部長，你同意吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是，非常同意委員的說法。"],["何委員欣純：所以我拜託是不是在接下來用最快的時間、最快的速度？跟內政部警政署、地方政府，還有相關的，包括數位發展部很重要，從源頭到後端的查緝，到剛剛說的運用數位化、科技化的聯防系統，每一件事情都很重要、都要做到。至於修法，當然我們支持，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。有關跨部會的聯防，我們會來努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何委員。","接下來有請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87a90daf14cec47697117a57b012903f1cd5656bc25be71a67af890c8298699f945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:38:42 - 11:46:30","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案及(十)委員林思銘等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」案。【第（十）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案。【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-18","start_time":"2024-11-18T11:38:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T11:46:30+08:00","duration":468,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.24534375,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.37596875,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.36721875,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.758468750000002,"end":80.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.31784375000001,"end":81.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.84784375000001,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.74596875,"end":124.48409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.53034375000001,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.97346875000002,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.85784375,"end":254.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.80159375000002,"end":287.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.49659375000005,"end":288.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.66096875,"end":397.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.30346875000004,"end":308.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.43284375,"end":415.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.66659375,"end":416.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.94471875000005,"end":426.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.78409375,"end":419.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.41159375,"end":445.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.28221875,"end":453.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.07409375000003,"end":465.29159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.213,"end":6.535,"text":"謝謝趙偉,有請部長。好,陳部長。"},{"start":15.782,"end":37.382,"text":"好 謝謝 不然喔那 延續了剛才不管是我們的林明哲召委、黃健豪委員包括李昆哲委員還有蔡啟展委員有提到目前的話 國內這個觀光困境、產業發展的困境啊因為它也包含著就包括今天討論的部分的提案那這個部分都是希望能夠來振興觀光的產業那在"},{"start":38.763,"end":67.116,"text":"對觀光好的一個政策或建議那其實是不分藍綠過去國民黨也曾經執政那所以國民黨智庫還有在上禮拜四召開一個座談會那有提到了許多很好的一個建議包括不僅是上面的五項的一個挑戰的建議甚至有包括是這個就是能夠讓入客那能夠如何能夠再來重新振興畢竟現在來台的人數畢竟確實是需要再做努力那"},{"start":67.816,"end":80.092,"text":"本期這邊有一個智庫的時候的一個座談會的一個建議、建言書那我就想說直接就給部長因為想說你防忙之餘也能夠看一下這些國民黨智庫的建議沒問題謝謝委員"},{"start":91.872,"end":115.298,"text":"好,那接著我們再看今天的這個議題就是在偽造車牌還有包括這個今天所討論的這個重中之重那我們看到一個圖表那這個大家可能都知道這個故事這是蒙面加飛貓的故事那在偽造或是在蒙面他有時候他可能做壞事"},{"start":116.198,"end":123.946,"text":"他可能帶動更多的壞事或是有這個示範效果他還在逃跑的其實就是我們的人民跟百姓那我們看下一頁"},{"start":125.595,"end":152.086,"text":"那所以說某一面就是不想讓大家知道那就是有些這個偽造變造車牌他這個也是不想讓人家知道他同時他影響的也是就是可能是某一個車牌車主他是一個合理合法的一個駕駛人他的車牌那本期在這裡還是重申也強調不管是剛才許多委員有提到的一個修正案那包括是末路以及包括提高罰則甚至這樣子是等同於是一個危險駕駛的一個狀況"},{"start":154.187,"end":171.297,"text":"那他甚至在最高罰則其實甚至3萬到9萬的這種競輸都是被一個考慮的一個範圍那相信行政院的版本到時候提出那也參考國民黨委員其實許多委員不分藍綠都有提出的道路狀況管理條例的處罰那還是要建議因為"},{"start":172.057,"end":196.047,"text":"有幾位啦,就是說探險的行李有人走啦,抬刀的行李沒人走那我們要如何從源頭來去遏止它這個許多偽造車牌或是使用這個偽造車牌的這個動機包括讓他們覺得說這是料警的行李所以說這個部分要讓這個消動部一定要在這個修法的部分來保護我們這個未來這個偽造車牌能夠去降低"},{"start":196.647,"end":216.54,"text":"那同樣的剛才在質詢的時候提到如果說今天來講通知那個速發部的話如果說網路上下架的這種速度的話大概多少時間內可以完成我們是每天都會在網路上巡查巡查之後馬上就會移送那移送之後的速度是不是我請局長多少一天之內可以"},{"start":217.16,"end":242.291,"text":"跟委員報告因為他大概還是要查緝不過就是說像這一個網購平台的部分像這一個相關的這個Yahoo這個采賣的相關的一些這個網購平台的部分其實已經都下架了現在比較難的大概就是說一些比如說是自己的臉書LINE的那些部分的話因為大概我們透過這一個我們自己每天巡查以後"},{"start":242.711,"end":257.452,"text":"其實在移送給這一個速發部然後也請相關的單位協助下架那這個部分的話像我們現在大概已經移了500多件那下架了41件局長那個我直接回覆這個我的疑問"},{"start":258.433,"end":287,"text":"就是說其實訴發部他要通知各種的平台他下架的話他要請他們喝咖啡或是直接跟他們通知那是在一天內、一週內還是一個月內還是在半天內還是即通知即下架那我覺得這個部分的話交通部需要跟訴發部溝通因為在網路上面在下一頁甚至還在就與新知大家能夠來大家告訴大家哪裡買這個假車牌所以這個本期在這裡還是要建議跟部的平行聯繫是非常的重要好"},{"start":287.78,"end":308.398,"text":"跟蘇法部合作。謝謝。那最後本席在針對發展公安條例70之二的部分,那還是要強調一下,今天許多,因為剛才在提案說明的時候有看到部長其實講到救國團、講到青年活動中心,他也一直在點頭表示其實跟救國團跟青年活動中心其實一直都可能都有參加許多的活動,或是都有連結。參加過。"},{"start":309.399,"end":323.235,"text":"對,那所以說這個剛才部長也提到說能夠給予說這個部分有一些寬容寬限因為他們畢竟是要轉型成合法的部分那過去他們在疫情期間也都配合了政府政策在做這個防疫旅館"},{"start":324.276,"end":342.748,"text":"還我相信不管是救國團或是包括國際英雄館或是甚至這個勞工運動中心還青年活動中心其實他們在那段時間疫情他們也都在佩服政府政策他們那時候也是放下了手上那時候在申請轉型的這個過程那也是不斷的在做努力"},{"start":343.308,"end":360.968,"text":"那本期還是請這個部長還跟署長還能夠在這一案的部分還給他們一個期間因為輔導轉型的話其實他也要有成效因為過去的話他們並不是衝突衝擊的原本的旅宿業者他們是一直並行並存的幾十年"},{"start":361.618,"end":380.254,"text":"那而現在來講像國軍英雄館他也會因為這樣子他才評估要不要熄燈但是這是大家所不樂見的他們還是有他們的意義跟他們的族群存在那如何能夠在輔導轉型的部分能夠拿出成績以及在他們過去在防疫期間的這個也算是防疫有功"},{"start":380.794,"end":397.051,"text":"配合政府政策我們現在給他們一些空間緩衝就像魯明哲教所提出的數據一樣那是不是能夠來配合讓他們盡快來輔導成因為他們很多案子還在申請中這時候給他們斷頭的時候那其實傷的都是這些所有員工家庭的生計啊"},{"start":398.739,"end":413.6,"text":"報告委員還在申請中的就是還在努力當中的這些案子我們會盡量來輔導他那對於這個我們的期限如果到了之後還需要短暫的這個寬限期的話這個部分我們跟署這邊來協調一下看要怎麼樣去輔導這些業者"},{"start":414.761,"end":441.783,"text":"所以說可以給他們一些寬限的期間嗎?這個部分我們還要再討論希望說能夠用最短的速度啦大家不要再去去做這個時間上的調整但是我們用最短的時間能夠來協助但是我坦白講就是在這次的提案的部分還是希望給他們一個合理的一個緩衝期那因為這個部分法不修那他們沒有這個緩衝期那所以說今天他牽扯是很大包括那時候配合防疫我是覺得如果可以的話"},{"start":442.483,"end":462.376,"text":"部內跟署內應該要積極的來協助?如果他現在已經在這個申請的過程我們希望能夠在明年底明年底之前看可不可以全部把他們輔導到合法那我們就在這緩衝期呢盡量給他們一個輔導到因為這個修法必須要給他們一個空間那就有在這個交通部公關署這邊盡量來協助他們謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（11時38分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["游委員顥：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：延續剛才魯明哲召委、黃健豪委員，以及李昆澤委員還有蔡其昌委員所提到，目前國內觀光產業發展的困境，包括今天討論的部分提案，都是希望能夠振興觀光產業。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["游委員顥：對於觀光的好的政策或建議，其實是不分藍綠，過去國民黨也曾經執政。所以國民黨智庫在上個禮拜四召開一個座談會，提到了許多很好的建議，不僅是對於五項觀光挑戰的相關建議，甚至包括如何讓陸客的部分能夠重新振興，畢竟現在來臺的人數上確實需要再做努力。本席這邊有一個智庫那時候座談會的建言書，我就直接給部長，想說你繁忙之餘，也能夠看一下國民黨智庫的建議。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：接著我們再看今天的議題，即偽造車牌，還有今天所討論的重中之重。我們看到這張圖表，大家可能都知道這個故事，這是蒙面加菲貓的故事，在偽造或是在蒙面時，有時候他可能是做壞事、他可能帶動更多的壞事或是有這個示範效果，然後在逃跑的其實就是我們的人民跟百姓。所以蒙面就是不想讓大家知道，有些偽造、變造車牌也是不想讓人家知道，同時他影響的可能是某一個車牌的車主、一個合法駕駛人的車牌。本席在這裡還是重申也強調，不管是剛才許多委員有提到的修正案，包括沒入以及提高罰則，這樣子等同是危險駕駛的狀況，甚至在最高罰則三萬到九萬，這種競速都是被考慮的範圍，相信行政院的版本到時候提出，再參考國民黨委員的版本，其實許多委員不分藍綠都有提出道路交通管理處罰條例的處罰，本席還是要建議，因為有一句話說：「了錢生理無人做，刣頭生理有人做」，我們要如何從源頭去遏止許多偽造車牌或是去使用偽造車牌的動機，還有包括讓他們覺得這是「了錢的生理」，所以這個部分請交通部一定要用修法來保護民眾，讓未來偽造車牌能夠降低。同樣地，剛才在質詢的時候有提到，如果今天通知數發部的話，網路上下架的速度大概多少時間內可以完成？"],["陳部長世凱：我們是每天都會在網路上巡查，巡查之後馬上就會移送，移送之後的速度，是不是我請局長做說明？"],["游委員顥：好，多少？一天之內可以嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為他大概還是要查緝，不過這種網購平臺，像是在Yahoo採買等相關的一些網購平臺的部分，其實已經都下架了，現在比較難的大概就是，譬如說他們自己的臉書、LINE，那些部分的話，我們透過自己每天巡查以後，再移送給數發部，然後也請相關單位協助下架，這個部分的話，像我們現在大概已經移了五百多件，下架了41件。"],["游委員顥：局長，我直接提出我的疑問，其實數發部要通知各種平臺下架的話，他要請他們喝咖啡或是直接跟他們通知，那是在一天內、一週內、一個月內，還是在半天內，還是即通知即下架？我覺得這個部分交通部需要跟數發部溝通，因為在網路上面，甚至還在舊雨新知上請大家告訴大家哪裡可以買得到假車牌，所以本席在這裡還是要建議，跟部的平行聯繫是非常重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會跟數發部合作。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。最後，針對發展觀光條例第七十條之二的部分，本席還是要強調一下，剛才在提案說明的時候，有看到講到救國團、講到青年活動中心時，部長也一直在點頭，表示可能一直都有參加許多救國團跟青年活動中心的活動，或者都有連結。"],["陳部長世凱：有參加過。"],["游委員顥：對，剛才部長也提到，能夠給予這個部分有一些寬容、寬限，因為他們畢竟要轉型成合法的部分，過去他們在疫情期間也都配合政府政策在做防疫旅館，還有我相信不管是救國團或是國軍英雄館，甚至是勞工運動中心、青年活動中心，其實他們在疫情那段時間也都在配合政府政策，他們那時候也是放下了手上正在申請轉型的過程，也是不斷地在做努力。本席還是請部長跟署長能夠在這一案的部分給他們一個期間，因為輔導轉型的話，其實它也要有成效，因為過去他們並不是衝擊原本的旅宿業者，他們是一直並行、並存了幾十年，而現在來講，像國軍英雄館也因為這樣子才評估要不要熄燈，但是這是大家所不樂見的，他們還是有他們的意義跟他們的族群存在。如何能夠在輔導轉型的部分拿出成績？以及他們過去在防疫期間也算是防疫有功，配合政府政策，我們現在給他們一些空間緩衝，就像魯明哲召委剛才所提出的數據一樣，是不是能夠來配合，讓他們儘快來輔導成功？因為他們很多案子還在申請中，這時候給他們斷頭的話，其實傷的是所有員工家庭的生計啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，還在申請中的，就是還在努力當中的這些案子，我們會儘量來輔導他，如果到了我們所規定的期限之後還需要短暫的寬限期的話，這個部分我們跟署來協調一下，看要怎麼樣去輔導這些業者。"],["游委員顥：所以可以給他們一些寬限的期間嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們還要再討論，希望能夠用最短的速度，大家不要再去做時間上的調整，但是我們用最短的時間能夠來協助他們。"],["游委員顥：但是我坦白講，在這次提案的部分，還是希望給他們合理的緩衝期，因為這個部分法不修，他們就沒有這個緩衝期，所以今天他牽扯是很大的，包括那時候配合防疫，我是覺得如果可以的話，部內跟署內應該要積極地來協助。"],["陳部長世凱：如果他們現在已經在申請的過程，我們希望能夠在明年底之前看可不可以全部把他們輔導到合法。"],["游委員顥：我們就在這緩衝期內儘量給他們輔導，因為這個修法必須要給他們一個空間，那就有賴交通部觀光署儘量來協助他們，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝游委員。","接下來有請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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拜二、禮拜三、禮拜四、禮拜五這幾天大概都是球迷陸續會到會往東京的時間所以禮拜二、禮拜三、禮拜四、禮拜五"},{"start":229.609,"end":244.385,"text":"盡量來協調可不可以增加那因為我們訊息需要讓大家知道所以這個你可以在社群面上看到嘛每一個人都在敲碗說可不可以增加班機這個事情那我也會請教育部來幫忙就是說到底這個"},{"start":247.407,"end":270.538,"text":"門票的部分可不可以跟日方有一個協調跟主辦單位有一個協調可不可以讓這個門票的購買的資訊能夠讓大家更清楚這個因為教育部是主管這個棒球協會是教育部的單位是這個部分我也會請他來幫忙所以但是交通要先有機票然後再有門票才可以這個成行"},{"start":271.138,"end":285.612,"text":"這部分我們趕快來努力那訊息會馬上提供給委員對對對我們隨時保持聯絡啦因為這個時間就很短嘛對沒錯這個國家隊明天就出發啦明天他們早中午好像搭華航的飛機這個是由主辦方安排的所以明天就出發"},{"start":286.552,"end":305.208,"text":"那球迷也會在陸續國家隊出發之後後面球迷會陸續開始會過去所以這個希望國家把它當成一個大事這個是藍綠都支持的事情大家全力來把這件事情做好好不好好那另外就是說這個我請教一下署長"},{"start":306.509,"end":332.681,"text":"組長那個我們每一年本席都會配合市政府市政府有提了一些我們觀光的一些這個補助的計畫就是通過觀光署辦理這個區域旅遊品牌補助計畫那這個每一年本席都會配合市政府來爭取市政府所提這個計畫所以我們很多像鐵戰山我們分年一段一段把它做好那也持續了大概也我看6年的計畫有了"},{"start":334.722,"end":362.078,"text":"每年都有補助那本席會發現像今年這個進度普遍都很慢那慢的原因到底是地方政府他出了什麼問題還是他計畫本身當時在寫的時候寫的並不夠好或者不夠詳細導致工程的進度都會拖啦那過去可能問題比較沒有但是我看最近就是開始會出現這個問題所以我也藉這個機會希望觀光署能夠督促啦就我們給地方政府錢"},{"start":362.858,"end":364.679,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":379.366,"end":392.837,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 中央可以協助的,那我們就協助,這樣不可以。這是小事啦,但是我是覺得不能進度慢嘛,因為明年我們又有新的想法要來做了,好不好,這個地方政府都要把它督促好。是,是,好,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時31分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長昨天有沒有看十二強的棒球比賽？"],["陳部長世凱：我昨天沒看，但是有看結論。"],["蔡委員其昌：你看到結論……"],["陳部長世凱：結論是大家很開心。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你知道我們已經贏下比賽，前進東京嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們要往東京去。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。我想昨天國人都沉浸在這種喜悅跟振奮當中，當然我也不例外"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：今天主要來跟部長討論，昨天晚上第一時間當我們確定可以前進東京的時候，我就跟交通部做了聯繫，因為我知道球迷朋友從昨天晚上……因為大家都很希望去幫我們的國家隊應援、去東京加油。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：就我所知道，機票的部分應該是相當困難，因為現在屬於楓葉的季節，去日本的機票本來就不容易買。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：球迷朋友有很多人期待，是不是有機會可以加班機？所以昨天我就先聯繫交通部，希望今天早上可否跟我們的國航做一些聯絡，讓國航清查一下可不可能透過加班機的方式，或者在現有的班次裡面用大型飛機……"],["陳部長世凱：對，大飛機。"],["蔡委員其昌：用這個方式增加載客量。不知道早上部裡面的同仁有沒有跟你聯繫這個事情？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，昨天晚上我們贏了之後，要前往東京嘛！昨天班機的訂票率還沒開始提升，但今天開始我們看到訂票率一直在提升。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳部長世凱：就是往東京班機的訂票率一直在提升，所以我們也是馬上請國航，大家開始去思考怎麼樣增加供給量，包含增加航班是一種方法，或者是換大飛機，讓它載客的數字可以更增加，這個部分交通部會努力，因為看到國人非常開心，大家真的很積極想要到東京去幫我們的國家隊加油。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為我很清楚知道，第一個要先透過國航、有飛機，這是第一個前提。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個，可能交通部也要趕快跟日方做聯繫。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為飛機不是隨便開著就進去，它還要跟日方的機場……"],["陳部長世凱：對，跟他們機場會做聯繫，另外，日航的部分也可以提供協助。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，就是其他航空公司，如果非國航的它願意增加航班，我方也應該要積極協助增加航班。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，我們一定會協助。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為這個是大家都很高興的事情，所以我想我們應該可以預先準備到這樣的事情，這是舉國歡騰，而且不分藍綠，講到棒球我想大家就忘了自己是國民黨還是民進黨，大家都會全力支持，你看召委一直點頭。"],["陳部長世凱：是，昨天委員交代之後，今天交通部早上就開始在聯繫這件事，民航局也馬上在聯繫這件事。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那部長可不可以隨時請部裡面的同仁跟我報告一下進度？"],["陳部長世凱：這個沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為我們必須快速讓球迷知道這件事情，到底有沒有可能增加、增加的時間是在……因為我昨天也提過，球迷需求的時間大概是禮拜二、禮拜三、禮拜四、禮拜五這幾天，大概都是球迷陸續會往東京的時間。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以禮拜二、禮拜三、禮拜四、禮拜五，儘量協調可不可以增加，因為我們需要讓大家知道訊息。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：你可以在社群媒體上看到，每一個人都在敲碗說可不可以增加班機的這個事情。我也會請教育部幫忙，門票的部分可不可以跟日方主辦單位協調，就門票購買的資訊讓大家更清楚，因為棒球協會是教育部主管的單位，所以這個部分我會請他們幫忙。但是交通上，要先有機票啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：然後再有門票，才可以成行。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們趕快來努力，訊息會馬上提供給委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我們隨時保持聯絡，因為這個時間就很短嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：國家隊明天就出發了。明天他們中午好像搭華航的飛機，這個是由主辦方安排的，所以明天就出發。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：在國家隊出發之後，球迷也陸續會過去。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會儘速來辦理。"],["蔡委員其昌：希望我們國家把它當成一個大事，這個是藍綠都支持的事情，大家全力把這件事情做好，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。另外，我請教署長，每一年本席都會配合市政府，市政府有提了一些觀光補助計畫，就是透過觀光署辦理區域旅遊品牌補助計畫，每一年本席都會配合市政府來爭取市政府所提的這個計畫。"],["周署長永暉：是，委員一向很關心。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以有很多計畫，像鐵砧山，我們分年一段一段把它做好。"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：也持續了大概有6年的計畫。"],["周署長永暉：每年都有補助。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。本席發現，像今年的進度普遍都很慢，慢的原因，到底是地方政府出了什麼問題，還是計畫本身當時在寫的時候寫得並不夠好或者不夠詳細，導致工程的進度都會拖？過去可能比較沒有問題，但我看最近就開始會出現這個問題，所以我也藉這個機會，希望觀光署能夠督促。"],["周署長永暉：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們給地方政府錢，你也要監督它的進度，因為我不能去監督市政府。"],["周署長永暉：是，我們除了定期的以外，也不定期做……"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["周署長永暉：因為它確實執行率變慢。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果沒有任何原因，只是行政效率差，那我們要有一些手法。"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果是它遇到困難，中央可以協助的，那我們就協助，這樣可不可以？"],["周署長永暉：是，好，這個個案我們也……"],["蔡委員其昌：這是小事，但我覺得不能進度慢，因為明年我們又有新的想法要來做了，好不好？這個要好好督促地方政府。"],["周署長永暉：是，好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（魯委員明哲）：謝謝蔡委員。","接下來有請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87b678488ba0345fe2dc7cef15d9be6ba6d5656bc25be71a67462de921938ebd285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:50:20 - 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,它不會輸給任何一個有特色的產品,甚至分析建議,"},{"start":176.75,"end":176.87,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":192.961,"end":194.883,"text":"農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金"},{"start":208.695,"end":237.89,"text":"沒有什麼阿強委員在說的也是我們的一些想法就是說蘭花園區不能只是產業自生自滅的一個園區它需要一些技術的導入所以我記得在去年的時候好像也有委員有一個主決議附帶決議的部分就是希望我們去研議就是把蘭花園區跟我們試驗單位的相關的單位做整併那這個整併其實我們也先提了一個"},{"start":238.751,"end":245.172,"text":"先期的中長能計劃大概應該是八十九億左右齁去跟那個去跟"},{"start":246.092,"end":269.731,"text":"跟那個行政院爭取經費這是經費的部分現在問題就是說組織面的部分其實如果說照委員所講的蘭花園區結合農事所的話會分鎖的話它不會增加市集單位對阿這樣的話我想我們會來努力啦因為這樣的方式齁才能夠讓我們的園區能夠轉型跟升級第一個也不會讓你的組織變大對喔對喔這個不會變大"},{"start":271.633,"end":271.713,"text":"發言委員："}]},"gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時50分）謝謝主席，本席邀請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。今天跟你探討一個問題，這是我們臺灣的蘭花，我給你看的這個照片，是今年2月23日在臺南所辦的臺灣國際蘭展，那個時候賴清德總統有去看，不過2月他還沒就職，是以總統當選人的身分。賴總統為什麼會去看？因為他說他在臺南市長任內辦了7次臺灣國際蘭展，等於他當市長任內每一年都辦。賴總統在今年2月於臺灣蘭展致詞，他說當年做市長就有一個心願，希望臺灣的蘭花可以像荷蘭的鬱金香一樣，一個產業可以養活更多臺灣人，讓蘭花成為在國際上能夠代表臺灣的一種識別。","根據農業部統計，臺灣蘭花一年的產值超過新臺幣70億，部長，對吧！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我覺得農業部應該更重視蘭花產業，這麼有國際競爭力、這麼有臺灣特色，而且它的產業價值現在已經這麼高。但其中最重要的，臺南的蘭花生技園區，我發現在位階上，農業部裡面根本沒有人在管它，一點都得不到重視，在農業部差不多是位在「農科園區管理」再下面，大概隸屬農業科技管理中心下面的農科園區管理，這不是屏東的……"],["陳部長駿季：應該就是四級單位。"],["林委員俊憲：不只，這不知道到幾百級去了。"],["陳部長駿季：四級單位。"],["林委員俊憲：四級單位，坦白講，在資源上根本完全是……如果國家要把它當作一個未來重要發展的部分，我覺得第一個是你要先提升蘭花園區的位階，它不會輸給任何一個有特色的產品。甚且本席建議，應該像農改場，蘭花生技園區可以合併，我們有一個花卉所，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我們把它合併，成為直屬於農業部的機關，你的看法呢？"],["陳部長駿季：感謝委員，特別是針對蘭花產業的這些關心。我們說蘭花園區本來臺南市管理以後，變成中央管理的時候，其實那些管理的思維要改變。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有錯。"],["陳部長駿季：像委員說的也是我們的一些想法，蘭花園區不能只是產業自生自滅的一個園區，需要一些技術導入，所以我記得去年好像也有委員有一個附帶決議希望我們研議，把蘭花園區跟試驗的相關單位整併。而這個整併，其實我們也先提了一個先期的中長程計畫，應該是89億左右，向行政院爭取經費，這是經費的部分。現在的問題是，組織面的部分，如果照委員所講的，蘭花園區結合農試所的花卉分所的話，不會增加四級單位。"],["林委員俊憲：對，沒有錯。"],["陳部長駿季：這樣的話，我想我們會努力，因為這樣的方式才能夠讓我們的園區轉型和升級。"],["林委員俊憲：第一個，也不會讓你們的組織變大。"],["陳部長駿季：對，組織不會變大。"],["林委員俊憲：第二，也表示我們對蘭花這個產業的重視。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["林委員俊憲：而且可以給它更大的實質性幫助。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員俊憲：行政院部分，本席也會來溝通。"],["陳部長駿季：感謝委員的支持，這個我們……"],["林委員俊憲：包括跟人事總處，甚至跟院長的這個部分。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["林委員俊憲：我們如果要重視，因為這對臺灣來說很有未來性，現在也……"],["陳部長駿季：這是一個機會。"],["林委員俊憲：嗯，也是很有競爭力的一個產業，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，好。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那我謝謝部長的支持。"],["陳部長駿季：好，感謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：好，感謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員精準掌握時間，部長回座。","下一位質詢委員請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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非常感謝委員事實上就是現在有了打仗那如果說他來喝咖啡喝不行那就請他喝禁酒啊禁酒喝不行喝罰酒啊完全同意賺錢我就我一樣開罰啊是 那現在有了打仗專法預計在11月底就要正式那個施行了然後接下來就有任何的這種狀況的話我們就可以直接開罰了這一點我要非常感謝立法院通過這個而且我覺得最重要這件事情不在於在於是說臉書"},{"start":486.98,"end":507.601,"text":"他不能躲在幕後然後還要讓我們工務同仁加班來 謝謝次長跟分局長那抱歉 那個國安局啊一件事情因為賴世鮑委員剛剛幾個委員都問到了我只是請教高嘉瑜前委員直接說因為他的這一個深偽的影片"},{"start":508.422,"end":525.561,"text":"您有看到嗎?有看到因為上禮拜我講說這其實蠻明目張膽的因為第一他也算是公眾人物有名第二他用的是上政論節目的畫面那政論節目每天都會有YouTube上所以說他到底是講真的講假的一目了然"},{"start":526.562,"end":548.885,"text":"可是居然會有人刻意去編造用AI來去做深偽的影片那我想請教這已經從上個禮拜高嘉瑜前委員也報案了那目前為止有進度嗎目前應該是由我們警察單位來受理在作偵辦哪一個可以說明一下現在有沒有進度有沒有查到兇手出處來源"},{"start":550.831,"end":567.312,"text":"各位報告,高介委員這個被偽造的影像是出自在中國大陸的一個抖音那他是一個三次郎工作室那邊所發布的部分那據我們了解這個發布人他現在也被抖音了,因為他發布過都已經被禁權了"},{"start":568.234,"end":582.189,"text":"有關於抖音的部分因為是屬於中國大陸的網路服務平台業者我們沒辦法去要求他們來進行下架所以在國內的部分大概只能用TWLink的部分做網域封鎖來做處理"},{"start":582.79,"end":599.797,"text":"那我想確認兩件事情因為我本席很關心我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒尤其用這種深偽技術來去擾亂社會秩序如果說不是他講的話的話我覺得任何人都不應該那這請教兩個部分你們就掌握了解這是集團犯罪還是個人行為"},{"start":600.897,"end":606.339,"text":"目前能看到他所發布是個人來推斷目前能從他發布的部分只能推斷他是個人來發布那這一批裡面除了高嘉瑜被仿冒還有沒有其他"},{"start":625.376,"end":650.385,"text":"他還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有跟委員報告說他在發布的影像裡面他就已經在影片上他已註明是深層製造的影會有註明嗎他底下有深層製造但是後來經過這個他可能是用TikTok或是用抖音可是因為他也可以被下載所以下載完之後如果再繼續轉傳的話你就沒有辦法掌握是不是這樣"},{"start":650.999,"end":678.496,"text":"這要看他的影像本身 原本上面的影像還沒有再被變質過如果是有再去做其他處理的話 這我們不管保證好 來 那副局長 最後我只講因為這樣的一個深偽技術 其實大家都要防範我覺得這還是算是第一階廣傳 可是大家可以分辨有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨譬如說 我只是簡單舉 因為我時間也到了但是我必須還是要再次提醒"},{"start":679.841,"end":695.261,"text":"阿湯哥的不可能任務有沒有看過就新這一集還沒看致命清算有沒有他致命清算還沒看但他已經去年就上映了致命清算他講的其實就是深偽技術而我們知道好萊塢通常會把他拍出來"},{"start":695.962,"end":709.876,"text":"代表這個技術可能已經過15年了可能已經市面上已經5年了所以說才會變成是電影拍攝換言之電影沒有拍的可能更先進而裡面致命清算裡面我建議真的我們國安單位也一定要去看一下"},{"start":710.601,"end":727.086,"text":"並不是說娛樂更重要的是你要了解他裡面其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者的中斷的訊息給砍斷然後下達錯誤的資訊讓阿湯哥跑錯地方我覺得如果說這個技術真的被運用駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話那很危險變成是不管是"},{"start":738.516,"end":754.485,"text":"發生什麼意外狀況或什麼緊急狀況的時候我們的指揮中心跟我們的前線部隊有可能中間的這樣的一個訊息是不是會被入侵、被控制、被變造那這樣的一個技術我覺得可能就要因應跟防"},{"start":756.085,"end":780.794,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為這個深層式AI這個出來以後一個技術很大的變革它能夠產製出我們很多以前想像不到的包括惡意城市都可以自動深層所以委員講這個部分我們會持續關注這種AI眼鏡然後驅動的這些威脅樣態適時的掌搜以後會提供給我們相關大家這真的應該要適時掌搜好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時38分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請國安局副局長、數發部次長以及內政部警政署刑事局副局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，我先請教一下數發部次長跟警政署，剛剛有委員提到上個禮拜臉書粉專被無預警下架的問題，我先釐清，第一，數發部說這不是數發部的關係，警政署說我們有黑名單跟白名單，提供了白名單給臉書，結果臉書內部溝通的問題，造成把白名單下架，是不是？我先請教一下，白名單、黑名單，照理講，臉書是上市公司、商業公司，還需要我們警政署幫它確認哪一個粉專是真的、哪一個粉專是假的？你們警政署怎麼這麼貼心！"],["林副局長信雄：跟委員報告，因為假冒名人粉專的這些廣告非常多，為了便利Meta公司，我們希望他們能夠加強內部的審核，所以我們也提供白名單，如果有發現不是這些我們所提供的白名單，我們希望他們能夠主動審核下架，但目前比較多的是，我們發現可能是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們提供多少白名單給它？"],["林副局長信雄：我們有一批的白名單，詳細數字我這邊沒有，抱歉，沒帶在身上。"],["洪委員孟楷：就從過去到現在一直蒐集的名單，是不是？"],["林副局長信雄：我們會去做確認，這段時間都有持續再去做確認屬於真實的這些名單。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們警務同仁為了打詐，還要去確認這個粉專到底是不是真的，是不是那個當事人擁有的，然後數發部在粉專下架之後，我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專頁救回來，有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊？怎樣，我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟，是不是？臉書是一個上市公司，是國際公司，大家都用，沒有錯，我尊重，但重點在於當它已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介，結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫它確認這個粉絲專頁是不是真的，然後真的、正牌的粉絲專頁被下架之後，找臉書要找誰？它在臺灣沒有設客服，我們數發部變成還要當它的客服，在接了這些陳情之後再跟臉書通知。我請教，到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎？有承認錯誤嗎？也沒有欸！次長，你說數發部同仁收到陳情，連夜加班跟臉書協調處理。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：臉書的客服呢？如果說它是一個商業行為、商業模式，我們數發部是主管機關，照理講，我們應該要求臉書去解決他們衍生出來的問題，結果不是啊！我們變成是客服專線24小時不打烊，同仁加班接收陳情之後，然後告訴臉書：你們出包了，趕快恢復。臉書現在咧？媒體報導的是，據了解臉書向數發部說明內部調查結果，並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤，會精進流程。它就跟數發部講一下，然後也沒有對外說明，好像這件事情跟它都沒關係、「無要無緊」，結果我們的警政署及數發部這兩大部會變成要扛責任，會不會覺得委屈啊？"],["林次長宜敬：會。"],["洪委員孟楷：會？怎麼辦啊？"],["林次長宜敬：委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受，因為像現在的國際媒體巨獸對各國政府來講，都是很頭痛的問題。事實上，美國也舉辦很多聽證會，但是因為這些企業實在是太大了，以臉書來講的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：大就可以是化外之地嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：不能這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：大就可以不受控制嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：事實上，臉書之前的問題是在於說，他們在臺灣的法遵部門只有兩個人，但是它的業務部門很大，他們兩人是互相不隸屬的，他們向上報告的話，他們的法遵部門是報告給新加坡的亞太中心，然後他們的銷售部門是report給香港的中心，兩邊再統統report到美國的總部去。所以以前我們跟它的法遵部門要求這些事情、要求那些事情的時候，我們一直跟它要求，可是他們就是說沒辦法。坦白講，我們也覺得那兩位臉書的同仁真的很可憐，一直被罵，所以後來我們的方法就是直接去找新加坡的亞太區總部，去跟他們開會、討論。事實上，美國加州總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情，每當美國的不管是行政部門或者是立法部門，就是他們國會的那些友人來參訪的時候，我們也一再跟他們講這個事情，我們希望透過美國的輿論給它施加壓力。事實上也必須講句公道話，就是臉書事實上是有在持續改進，只是說這次……"],["洪委員孟楷：還要幫他講話？次長，我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明，就是因為我覺得公務同仁很辛苦啊！"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一件事情，我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的，我現在姑且相信數發部沒有提供資料，而是內政部警政署提供資料，你們提供的是正確資料，是臉書內部搞錯，我都先相信，因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話。如果真的是這樣的話，那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題，但到目前為止三天、四天了，臉書沒有一個正式的回應，大家捕風捉影，然後要求你們去做說明，什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟？美國、其他國家，即便是這樣子，我相信都會有相關的法令，對於臉書，你過去講這些東西我也都了解，但是不能說有一家公司來臺灣賺很多錢，要求投廣告，可是它沒有負起相關的責任，那我們難道沒有任何因應作為嗎？數位發展部身為主管機關，其實數位發展部當初成立的宗旨和目的，就是當數位世界有任何亂象時，要試著去控制、試著去管理，這是你們的宗旨啊！次長，所以這件事情要怎麼因應？要怎麼改進？"],["林次長宜敬：非常感謝委員，事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年7月通過了打詐專法，在打詐專法第三十一條和第三十二條……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們能不能要求臉書？之前我質詢部長，部長說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡，甚至我說你們app裡面的通報案件上個月有10萬5,000件，其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙，包括用Meta的Messenger、IG和臉書，都有！我想如果九成的詐騙管道都是從Meta來的話，難道不能先要求他們做源頭管理嗎？這樣才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊！"],["林次長宜敬：是，非常感謝委員，現在有了打詐……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！如果他來喝咖啡喝不行，那就請他喝「敬酒」啊！「敬酒」喝不行，就請他喝「罰酒」啊！"],["林次長宜敬：我完全同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：賺錢我一樣開罰啊！"],["林次長宜敬：是！現在有了打詐專法，預計在11月底就要正式施行了，接下來有任何這種狀況，我們就可以直接開罰，這一點要非常感謝立法院通過這個打詐專法。"],["洪委員孟楷：而且我覺得這件事情在於臉書不能躲在幕後，還讓我們公務同仁加班。"],["林次長宜敬：是！"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝次長和分局長。","國安局，抱歉，一件事情，因為賴士葆委員和剛剛幾個委員都問到，我只是請教，高嘉瑜前委員深偽的影片您有看到嘛！"],["張副局長元斌：有，有看到。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為上個禮拜……我想說這其實滿明目張膽的，因為第一，他也算是公眾人物、有名；第二，他用的是上政論節目的畫面，政論節目在YouTube上每天都會有，所以他到底是講真的、講假的，一目瞭然，可是居然會有人刻意去變造、用AI去做深偽的影片，那我想請教，這已經從上個禮拜……高嘉瑜前委員也報案了，目前為止有進度嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：目前應該是由警察單位受理、在做偵辦。"],["洪委員孟楷：哪個人可以說明一下？現在有沒有進度？有沒有查到凶手、出處、來源？"],["林副局長信雄：跟委員報告，高嘉瑜委員被偽造的影像是出自中國大陸的抖音，它是一個「三只狼工作室」所發布的，據我們瞭解，發布人發布過後，現在也被抖音禁權了。有關抖音的部分，因為是屬於中國大陸的網路服務平台業者，我們沒辦法去要求他們進行下架，所以，在國內的部分大概只能對TikTok Link的部分以網域封鎮來做處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我想確認兩件事情，因為本席也很關心，我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒，尤其是用這種深偽技術去擾亂社會秩序，如果不是他講的話，我覺得任何人都不應該。請教兩個部分，就你們的掌握、瞭解，這是集團犯罪，還是個人行為？"],["林副局長信雄：目前能看到的、他所發布的是個人……"],["洪委員孟楷：個人？看起來雖然他的嘴型跟聲音像，但我覺得還是有點粗糙，仔細來看可能還是會有點對不上。所以這是個人行為，並不是集團？"],["林副局長信雄：從他發布的部分，目前只能推斷它是個人來發布。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一批裡面，除了高嘉瑜被仿冒，還有沒有其他？"],["林副局長信雄：還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有。跟委員報告，他在發布的影片上也註明是生成製造的。"],["洪委員孟楷：裡面有註明嗎？"],["林副局長信雄：它底下有寫是生成製造。"],["洪委員孟楷：他可能是用TikTok或抖音，可是因為它也可以被下載，所以下載完之後，如果再去做轉傳的話，你就沒有辦法掌握，是不是這樣？"],["林副局長信雄：這要看原本的影像有沒有被變製過，如果有再去做其他處理的話，這我們不敢保證。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。張副局長，最後我只講，對於這樣一個深偽技術，其實大家都要去防範，我覺得這還算是低階，雖然廣傳，可是大家可以分辨，也有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨的，譬如說，我只是簡單舉例，因為我的時間也到了，但我必須再次提醒。阿湯哥拍的「不可能的任務」最新一集有沒有看過？"],["張副局長元斌：還沒看。"],["洪委員孟楷：片名是「致命清算」，你還沒看，其實它去年就上映了。「致命清算」講的其實就是深偽技術，而我們知道，好萊塢會把它拍出來，通常代表這個技術可能已經過時5年了，也就是出現在市面上可能已經5年了，才會被拍成電影。換言之，電影沒有拍的可能更先進，我建議國安單位人員一定要去看一下「致命清算」，並不是為了娛樂，更重要的是你們要瞭解，其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務，突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者之間的訊息砍斷，然後下達錯誤的資訊，讓阿湯哥跑錯地方。我覺得如果這個技術真的被運用，駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話，那很危險，變成不管發生什麼意外狀況或緊急狀況的時候，我們的指揮中心跟前線部隊之間的訊息是不是有可能被入侵、被控制、被變造？"],["張副局長元斌：是，跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：對於這樣的技術，我覺得可能就要因應跟防制。"],["張副局長元斌：謝謝委員提醒，生成式AI出來以後是技術上一個很大的變革，它能夠產製出很多我們以前想像不到的，包括惡意程式碼都可以自動生成。所以對於委員講的這個部分，我們會持續關注這種AI演進、驅動的威脅樣態，適時地掌蒐以後，會提供給相關單位應處。"],["洪委員孟楷：這真的應該要適時掌蒐，好不好？"],["張副局長元斌：好，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。請葛如鈞委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}},{"id":"157027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87df3149ff81b9c56edc7cef15d9be6ba6d5656bc25be71a676e20a296e7f2f0315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:44:17 - 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我覺得很好。我們訪台的方法就了了啦。 沒給水是了了啦。山陀河我們屏東只剩下2億啦。 但是三年前我們屏東的大沒給水也剩下2億。請問喔,對於沒辦法控制我們的天候,我們可以數毫米薄嘛。 靠酒酒、靠保險。 要怎麼讓農民有我們的收入,你要怎麼做?"},{"start":105.018,"end":118.547,"text":"有兩個風險,一個風險就是說,我們要想辦法用比較設施型的這些再別的方式。不然你都聽到我想問你,企業我們沒有改變,但是我們的農水路我們要去修建對不對?是。我們的農業的主宰,我們要補助給他們溫庫對不對?是。所以說農業補助要做這兩項事情嘛。"},{"start":126.733,"end":127.434,"text":"農水到農業主宰給農民會受到穩定增加嗎?"},{"start":127.434,"end":127.575,"text":"是不是這樣?"},{"start":127.575,"end":129.538,"text":"是。好,來我們看一看。好,阿聖望你這個,是生有殘才有水,還是有水才有殘?"},{"start":140.393,"end":168.194,"text":"餐本來就在那裡,水一定要夠,餐才可以工作。不好意思啦,你有餐沒水喔,那餐就是什麼?就沒好東西了啦,對不對?所以說我們有什麼農民不愛做?因為你沒灌白,我農地就沒辦法做農業設施嘛,我整個地方去做光電嘛,對不對?啊不然呢?不然我就去拆地嘛,我每天怎樣?看電線、倒木頭、抽水嘛,是不是這樣?所以沒灌給用水就沒辦法經濟嘛,這是屬性嘛,經濟是不是要灌給用水?"},{"start":169.577,"end":169.777,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":190.194,"end":218.521,"text":"這個我們已經5.6萬,已經5.6萬,已經做到,這個已經做到啦。我好像沒在那五萬六千公頃內地的。我們逐年喔。 現在國土紀委發,國土紀委發有給我分說我的農地是有灌白沒灌白,給我分在農、農業、農利,有沒有這樣分?農業跟農利不是這樣分的齁?對啊,不是這樣分的嘛。我分作農業,結果我沒灌白,你要叫我怎麼做農?我們的優先齁,我們對,阿邦對農業的部分,我們的優先齁,去增加他的灌溉的渠道。所以說,"},{"start":219.361,"end":222.304,"text":"我農民我本就農業、為就農利,我是在家裡單年關也會給我做來,還是我要去申請。"},{"start":226.44,"end":250.05,"text":"對於農業部來說,農一、農二都是我們要去照顧的基金,對,都要去做灌牌。農民現在請你請灌牌,你當時做得好,要多久?報告委員,我們有分長期跟短期,如果是他其中比較更做比較完整的地方,我們是用整個系統性來做,如果個別,我們給他每年每戶50萬元的這個設施相關的補助。所以灌牌是農民的農管,保證你要提供最少一項。"},{"start":251.511,"end":257.956,"text":"關於農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":270.046,"end":270.186,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":300.756,"end":308.381,"text":"政府要補償嗎?要補償嗎?根據你剛才說的條例,其實政府應該更加強去做這個農水路的設施。最後兩題啦,說用設施不是人,看施設啦,農業部要提供農地表的建設是這樣嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":323.438,"end":338.684,"text":"請你回去研究農業設施不足、造型、農產不足、沒有收益,你是不是在設施完整進程要補充?拜託,保證回去研究一下可以嗎?我們可以拿回去去研議還有做區會的判斷。好,要多研究一下,1個位、2個位、3個位。這個可能需要一點時間,這個要全國地區的盤點。你說前時間,3個月。3個月好。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時44分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們陳部長、農糧署姚署長，還有農田水利署蔡署長以及農業金融署的李署長。"],["主席：農業部陳部長、姚署長、蔡署長、李署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長你好。有水才有田，灌溉設施是農權，缺水利損農益，如何保障農民？我們來看，來請教一下。我們鄉下的老伯常講，「作穡作穡，愈作愈失」，為什麼？為什麼「作穡作穡，愈作愈失」？"],["陳部長駿季：有時候他的田風頭水尾的時候……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，風頭水尾，你說得很好。因為農民看天吃飯，所以現在農民都不做了，對不對？極端的氣候會對農業造成什麼影響？"],["陳部長駿季：經營的不確定性，經營的風險越來越高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：講得很好。颱風下雨下光光，沒雨水死光光，山陀兒我們屏東縣損失2億，但是3年前屏東沒有雨水也損失2億。請問一下，就算無法控制天候，我們也可以事後彌補，靠救助、靠保險，那要怎麼樣讓農民有比較穩定的收入？你要怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：兩個方式，一個方式就是我們要想辦法用比較設施型的栽培方式……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長你都抓到我想問你的，氣候我們沒辦法改變，但是我們的農水路要修建，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業資材我們要補助，讓它比較穩固，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以農業部就在做這兩件事，農水路跟農業資材，讓農民的收入穩定增加，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。先問你一下，是先有田才有水，還是有水才有田？"],["陳部長駿季：田本來就在那裡，水一定要夠田才能耕作。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不好意思，你有田沒水，田就沒用了，對不對？所以為什麼我們農民不做？因為如果沒有灌排，農地就沒辦法做農業設施，我乾脆讓人家去做光電，對不對？不然就是自己鑿井，自己牽電線裝馬達抽水，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以沒灌溉用水就沒辦法耕作，這是事實，那耕作是不是要灌溉用水？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你旁邊的農水署長很重要，對不對？是不是這樣？沒灌溉用水，農民就沒辦法耕作了，結果你們說什麼？擴大灌溉服務5萬6,000公頃，農地不分灌區內外都有水用，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候做得到？"],["陳部長駿季：這個5.6萬已經做到，這個已經做到了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果它沒有在這5萬6,000公頃裡面呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們逐年……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在國土計畫法有分農地是有灌排跟沒灌排，分成特農、農一、農二，有這樣分嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：農一跟農二不是這樣分的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對嘛！不是這樣分的，我分成農一，結果沒有灌排，你要叫我怎麼務農？"],["陳部長駿季：我們對農一的部分，我們會優先去增加它灌溉的渠道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以農民分到農一或農二，他是在家等你們做好灌排設施，還是他要去申請？"],["陳部長駿季：對農業部來說，農一、農二都是我們要去照顧的地。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要去做灌排設施，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，要去做灌排設施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，署長，問你一下，農民現在申請灌排設施，你什麼時候能做好？要多久？"],["蔡署長昇甫：報告委員，我們有分長期跟短期，如果是耕作比較完整的地方，我們是用整個系統性來做，如果是個別，我們給他每年每戶50萬元的設施相關補助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以灌排設施是農民的農權，部長，你要聽清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以灌排設施還沒做好之前，我的田的生產受損失，你看土地稅法第二十二條，在都市裡面的土地，如果在公共設施未完成前，仍作農業用地使用，是沒有課地價稅的，為什麼？比如我是老闆，我要找一塊工廠的地，但是沒道路，我的工廠沒辦法開工，所以我繼續讓它做農業使用，你知道現在要課地價稅嗎？這種的不用課地價稅，因為他是做農業使用，農戶就沒課，所以第二十二條就是說，政府如果沒有做到公設的義務，人民無法運用地利，就要給他補償或是稅金的減免，所以農業設施、農田水利設施沒做好，造成農民生產收益低落，政府要給他補償嗎？要嗎？要有補償嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：依你剛才說的條例裡面，其實政府應該更加強去做農水路的設施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後兩題，公共設施不是施捨，農業部要提供農地必要的建設，是不是這樣？有沒有？要嘛！所以請你回去研究，農業設施不足造成農產不足、沒辦法收益，是不是在設施完成之前要補償？拜託部長回去研究一下，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會拿回去研議，還有做區位的判斷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，多久可以答復我？1個月、2個月、3個月？"],["陳部長駿季：可能需要一點時間，這個要全國地區的盤點，我們3個月……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說一個時間，我等你到……"],["陳部長駿季：3個月。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，部長請回座。下一位質詢請林俊憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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持體系穩定，而不是搞到最後有經營權的……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們都希望它穩定，所以要被監督，要被監督才會正常地運作，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，監督是一回事，其實很多東西搞到最後會變成經營權之爭，那就是國家的一個災難。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們農業部有38%，可以加起來變成42%，所以你不要說會有災難，你要有誠意地、有態度地、有魄力地讓我們的獨董有專業性跟代表性，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們同意獨董一定要有專業性。"],["呂委員玉玲：你回去研議，然後再來跟本席報告，好不好？好，接下來我要請教部長，從2021年開始大陸方面就用檢疫出有害的生物跟更嚴苛的審查程序卡關了我國的鳳梨跟釋迦還有石斑魚出口到大陸，在今年9月，大陸的商務部又取消了臺灣34項農漁產品關稅的減免，這就讓我們農漁民的權益一再地被犧牲。大陸在2023年4月的時候又宣布了貿易的限制，要進行貿易壁壘的調查。我國對大陸2,455項農產品採取限制進口措施，其中有1,077項的農漁產品是農漁業產品，所以看到這邊的話，我們限制它1,077項農漁業的產品，當然它也會限制我們的東西，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們限制進口大陸本來是830項，因為稅則號列改變，變成1,077項，1,077項的限制最主要是去保障我們國內農民的生產，這非常重要。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道要保障，所以我希望……"],["陳部長駿季：第二個我想跟委員報告……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你看到這個問題的時候你就要知道，我們限制了它2,455項，1,077項就是我們農漁產品，我們是不是可以盤整一下跟大陸的相關產品比較沒有競爭的、比較沒有爭端的，可以降低我們爭端的話，這些產品我們釋出善意給它開放，這樣子的話，我們的農漁民才不會一再地受到犧牲。"],["陳部長駿季：這是我們一貫的態度。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們可以盤整一下，沒有競爭的。"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以一貫的態度就是兩岸的部分要怎麼樣去調整，一定是基於WTO的架構之下坐下來談，而不是放話。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，就是現在還沒有溝通來談，所以我們要釋出善意……"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望說有一個……"],["呂委員玉玲：只要跟大陸的產品沒有爭議的、不會影響的，我們就儘量把它降低。"],["陳部長駿季：我們在談判過程中，絕對不會犧牲臺灣農民的權益，這是一個最重要的。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是現在一直在犧牲嘛！現在就被犧牲了，所以我們趕快溝通來談。","接下來想請教，因為我們是希望可以開拓更多的市場，所以美國跟日本就是我們現在出口的第一大跟第二大，尤其現在美國我們看到了，在他們臺美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面，5月份已經在第二階段談判當中，我們也希望它可以核准我們進香腸、肉鬆或者鳳梨這些產品。現在你們談的結果怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個我要先跟委員報告，中國大陸暫停以後，我們積極開發包括美國的市場，美國現在很多……大陸以外的外銷金額從109年的38億……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們現在就談美國，部長，本席會這樣提醒你就是說，因為我們還沒有開放牛內臟跟牛脊髓，就是美牛高風險部位的產品，所以它跟我們的談判一直從5月談到現在還沒有結果，雖然部長你沒有正面回答，5月到現在11月了，將近半年的時間，我要提醒部長的是，不能因為這個樣子而去開放，要照顧到國人的健康，我們不要讓高風險的全牛進來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們跟日本本身在市場進入的部分，我們一直在積極爭取我們的鳳梨、我們的加工豬肉的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：這都要注意的啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我們希望能夠增加我們國家農產品輸往美國的機會，這個部分我們也會一直努力。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以不能因為這樣子而去答應他們的全牛進來，包括日本，日本現在是CPTPP的會員國，他們很多會員國是免關稅的，現在我們應該跟日本來雙邊貿易談判，讓我們的產品也可以免關稅，要不然的話我們就沒有競爭力，這方面請經濟部跟我們的農業部、跟我們行政院的談判辦公室，都一定要去談這個雙邊貿易的談判，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會配合OTN一起來處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：讓我們也可以免稅，這樣子的話，我們的農漁民才會有競爭力，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是的，我們會配合OTN來處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲召委精確掌握發言時間，部長請回座，謝謝。","下一位質詢請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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這個問題確實是非常重要跟嚴峻那尤其AI的AI尤其生成室出來以後他很容易製造出一些仿真的釣魚郵件還有呢他很容易去歸納去分析系統防禦的漏洞所以呢這個攻擊的太陽會越來越多然後速度會越來越快"},{"start":88.678,"end":109.115,"text":"所以這個部分為什麼台灣為什麼大家對台灣這麼有興趣為什麼呢?為什麼這個樣子?我想這個應該是一個普遍的現象普遍喔?全世界喜歡攻擊台灣台灣因為我們有目前因為主要的攻擊"},{"start":111.916,"end":121.02,"text":"跟委員報告那我想這個是一個趨勢所以剛提的如何因應趨勢喔你怎麼講趨勢呢這個好像我活該被攻擊怎麼這樣子講呢趨勢現在攻擊台灣是趨勢你說對還說不對我講的是AI的"},{"start":128.643,"end":130.225,"text":"你怎麼做?你們國安局有沒有針對這個事情立一個"},{"start":143.94,"end":164.041,"text":"專案討論還是立一個什麼因應小組什麼專門針對這個?根據委員報告有,我們局裡在幾年前我們就成立了一個小組去蜜注這個AI的技術,我們不只用坊間的啊怎麼會是成立幾年了,這個怎麼會越被攻擊越來越多怎麼會這樣子,怎麼會一塌糊塗,沒辦法,沒辦法攔住"},{"start":168.305,"end":177.454,"text":"包委員,供給發息我們不可控,可是我們可以有效的防禦,這是我們可以做的。越防禦越多啊,來來來,請教蘇華部的市長、林市長,這個現象怎麼樣避免啊,怎麼會我們這麼慘啊?"},{"start":185.866,"end":208.044,"text":"是先跟委員報告我們台灣受到很多的資安攻擊這的確是事實因為我們都知道美中現在已經進入第二次冷戰的那個態勢然後在那個Geopolitics上面我們台灣是在所謂的最前線所以會有一些境外不友善國家他們的那些平常有時候我覺得他們都是在練兵哪些國家是哪些國家的攻擊我們最有興趣哪幾個國家"},{"start":209.825,"end":234.305,"text":"當然就是中國大陸還有北韓還有俄羅斯其實俄羅斯非常多俄羅斯會不會因為我們過去罵俄羅斯所以更多會不會有可能會是但是他們通常做這個攻擊他們就是為了彰顯一些政治的訴求所以我們對這種他們的政治訴求我們也不想要讓他們炒熱新聞我們就做好我們的防禦"},{"start":236.046,"end":240.569,"text":"對,也不是不要理他,我們要做成事前事終以及事後的防禦。"},{"start":263.68,"end":283.721,"text":"包委員,我們沒有這個機器狗,不過我們會關注AI在這個運用上。欸,你說機器狗現在已經加入川普的一個海服裝員的巡邏了,已經加入了。是,我們會密註,事實上我們一直有在密註AI它運用在軍事或其他的國安威脅的用途,這個情訊我們一直在長說。不不不,我唸,你不要岔題啊。"},{"start":286.161,"end":304.631,"text":"國安局有沒有針對機器狗現在已經加入了這個一些的一個一些攻擊做一些防禦的措施有沒有機器狗這部分假如老共這是老共的老共如果弄機器狗來攻擊台灣我們有沒有一些因應的"},{"start":307.606,"end":333.284,"text":"這個無人載具我們看到我們其實掌握到就是中國大陸那邊針對無人載具不僅機器狗無人機無人的潛航器無人艇發展都非常的快速結合他們AI的投資和投入這個我們相信這是未來我們非常持續要掌搜關注的議題那這個議題我們掌搜到以後我們會提供給相關單位來做參數"},{"start":334.636,"end":354.467,"text":"我們有沒有一套的一個因應的整個的做法有沒有還是還沒有還是在developing這個部分因為如果涉及軍事的話會有國防部他們會去做一些評估跟應處那對本局來講會掌收這種趨勢跟威脅來提供相關單位的應處這個什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":357.995,"end":378.234,"text":"好 這個我們一直持續在掌受一直在持續做因為他也是一直在演進這個新的載具啊這個機器狗現在越來越popular這個你們要要針對這個做一些準備啦你可以看到我剛說過了這個川普的他的一個一個莊園都已經有機器狗在幫他巡邏了你可以看到好 最後一個這個各單位你聽好喔"},{"start":388.007,"end":407.345,"text":"行事警察局採購了深偽影像檢測平台花一千多萬法務部調查局這裡花了870萬高雄市行事警察大隊花了44萬數位部前瞻計劃研發多媒體建設平台1300萬零零總總"},{"start":411.142,"end":434.802,"text":"選舉期間,警政署、調查局還成立了AI深層深度偽造假訊息處理中心。我時間有些我就請教,國安局或者是數法部這裡,你們有沒有一個整合單位啊,就是對於AI這個深偽這一部分,專門成立一個小組把它整合一下,你看各單位都在"},{"start":438.925,"end":463.046,"text":"根委員報告事實上深偽這是徵訊根的一個延伸是手段的不同也就是說假訊息這個呈現的方式有文字有語音現在有影像越做越仿真加了AI技術以後事實上我本局跟我們相關政府機關和我們警政署幾個司法警察調查局我們"},{"start":463.686,"end":488.614,"text":"已經成立一個這種假訊息的防制的一個機制平臺所以針對這個AI在這樣的新的一個現象也在這個平臺我們會有討論透過這個剛剛看到這幾個部分有些是我們共同討論出來因為AI的發展太快速我們必須要有這些高新的一個AI技術設備我們才有辦法去因應這樣的一個"},{"start":490.205,"end":491.645,"text":"最後一個問題大家很關心的"},{"start":521.209,"end":541.467,"text":"就是蔡英文前總統她被這個升委之後一天就找到IP了其他人都找不到啊幾個月都找不到啊包括鄭文燦的找不到包括這個其他我們的立委立委們這個弄了老半天找不到就是外界質疑啊"},{"start":543.055,"end":558.492,"text":"你們在追這個事情的時候還大笑眼淚還看背後是誰受害哎呀這個蔡總統這個這個亮度很夠啊馬上一天你看拜託你們也很有能力啊其他人搞一個月都搞不到我這個東西"},{"start":559.841,"end":581.009,"text":"副局長要不要解釋一下發委員我們在處理這個訊息的過程有一套機制一套程序影響到國家安全或社會安寧這種影響擴大快速的話我們會優先來處理所以總統優先其他不優先發委員不是這樣就是說我們看到這樣的這個議題跟現象外界高度質疑"},{"start":581.809,"end":590.958,"text":"就是看人在辦案啦不是因為身份啦是看他影響國安跟涉案的程度還有發生的現象立委是沒有涉國安都沒關係每天來現在立委就有被護照我們那個是有分級啦是一般民眾還是影響國安是阿沒有錯阿所以總統比較短阿時間快速阿立委就慢慢來阿立委不重要就這樣啊大小也就這樣"},{"start":607.346,"end":607.486,"text":"賴士葆"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時27分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請國安局張副局長、數發部林次長、法務部調查局吳副局長、警政署林副局長，幾位長官一起。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：請你們看一下螢幕的簡報資料，我看了一些資料，不知道國安局或調查局的長官可不可以回答，要怎麼樣因應頻繁的AI資安攻擊？過去半年內，臺灣每個禮拜遭受2,930次的網路攻擊，是全球平均被攻擊的2.7倍，我們是AI之島，結果變成是被攻擊之島，國安局長官要不要先講一下，我們的KPI是什麼？這個怎麼因應？"],["張副局長元斌：謝謝委員，這個問題確實是非常重要跟嚴峻，尤其AI，生成式AI出來以後，很容易製造出一些仿真的釣魚郵件，還有它很容易去歸納及分析系統防禦的漏洞，這個攻擊的態樣會越來越多，然後速度也越來越快，所以這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼大家對臺灣這麼有興趣？為什麼呢？為什麼這個樣子，你們分析過沒有？"],["張副局長元斌：我想這個應該是一個普遍的現象，臺灣……"],["賴委員士葆：普遍喔？全世界喜歡攻擊臺灣？"],["張副局長元斌：臺灣，因為我們目前……"],["賴委員士葆：我們很偉大，所以被攻擊，是嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，我想這個是一個趨勢，所以剛剛提的如何因應……"],["賴委員士葆：趨勢？你怎麼會講趨勢呢？好像我們活該被攻擊，怎麼會這樣子講呢？全世界來攻擊臺灣是趨勢，你說的對還是不對？"],["張副局長元斌：我講的是AI生成的攻擊會是一個趨勢，那如何防範，其實有幾個部分，第一個就是……"],["賴委員士葆：因為我的時間有限，你不要給我講教科書的喔！來啦，你怎麼做？你們國安局有沒有針對這個事情立一個專案討論，還是立一個什麼因應小組或什麼來專門針對這個？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，有，我們局裡在幾年前就成立AI小組，密注AI的技術，我們不只用坊間的……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會成立幾年了，我們被攻擊的件數越來越多，怎麼會這個樣子呢？"],["張副局長元斌：被攻擊……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會一塌糊塗呢？你們那個沒有效啊！你再怎麼做也沒有用！"],["張副局長元斌：攻擊是……"],["賴委員士葆：沒辦法攔阻、攔截嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，攻擊發起我們不可控，可是我們可以有效的防禦，這是我們可以做的，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：越防越多啊！來、來、來，我請教數發部林次長，這個現象怎麼樣避免？怎麼會這個樣子呢？我們這麼慘啊！"],["林次長宜敬：先跟委員報告，我們臺灣受到很多的資安攻擊，這的確是事實，因為我們都知道……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼樣防止？"],["林次長宜敬：美中現在已經進入第二次冷戰的態勢，然後在geopolitics上面，我們臺灣是在所謂的最前線，所以會有一些境外不友善國家的那些，平常有時候我覺得他們都在練兵啦！"],["賴委員士葆：那些國家是哪些國家在攻擊我們？最有興趣的是哪幾個國家？"],["林次長宜敬：當然就是中國大陸……"],["賴委員士葆：還有呢？"],["林次長宜敬：北韓。"],["賴委員士葆：北韓，還有呢？"],["林次長宜敬：還有俄羅斯，其實俄羅斯非常多。"],["賴委員士葆：俄羅斯非常多？"],["林次長宜敬：對。"],["賴委員士葆：俄羅斯會不會因為我們過去罵俄羅斯，所以更多？會不會？有可能？"],["林次長宜敬：有可能會是，但是他們通常做這個攻擊就是為了彰顯一些政治的訴求，所以對於他們的政治訴求，我們也不想要讓他們炒熱新聞，我們就做好我們的防禦。"],["賴委員士葆：所以不要理他？"],["林次長宜敬：也不是不要理他，我們要做事前……"],["賴委員士葆：越攻擊越多啊！"],["林次長宜敬：我們做事前、事中以及事後的防禦，事前……"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，我時間有限，我跳第二題。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：來，我們看一下，國安局有精進網安防禦，影片這個是機器狗，請問國安局有沒有針對機器狗做一些準備？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，我們沒有這個機器狗，不過我們會關注AI在運用上……"],["賴委員士葆：欸，你知道機器狗現在已經加入川普的海湖莊園的巡邏耶，已經加入了！"],["張副局長元斌：我們會密注，事實上我們一直有在密注AI運用在軍事或其他國安威脅的用途，這個情訊我們一直在掌蒐。"],["賴委員士葆：不、不、不，我問你，你不要岔題啊，國安局有沒有針對現在已經加入攻擊的機器狗做一些防禦的措施，有沒有？機器狗這部分，假如老共，這是老共的啊！老共如果弄機器狗來攻擊臺灣，我們有沒有一些因應呢？"],["張副局長元斌：是，針對無人載具，我們的情資掌握到的就是，中國大陸那邊針對無人載具，不僅機器狗，無人機、無人潛航器、無人艇，發展都非常的快速，結合他們AI的投資和投入，我們相信這是未來我們持續要掌蒐、關注的議題，這個議題我們掌蒐到以後，我們會提供給相關單位來做參處。"],["賴委員士葆：我們有沒有一套因應的整體作法，有沒有？還是還沒有？還在develop？"],["張副局長元斌：有關這個部分，如果涉及軍事的話，國防部他們會去做一些評估跟應處，對本局來講，會掌蒐這種趨勢跟威脅來提供相關單位做應處。"],["賴委員士葆：這個什麼時候可以出來？"],["張副局長元斌：這個我們一直持續在掌蒐。"],["賴委員士葆：一直持續在做？"],["張副局長元斌：是，因為它也是一直在演進。"],["賴委員士葆：這個新的載具，這個機器狗現在越來越popular，你們要針對這個做一些準備，你可以看到，我剛說過了，川普的莊園都已經有機器狗在幫忙巡邏了，你可以去看喔。","好，最後一個，各單位聽好喔，刑事警察局採購了深偽影像檢測平臺花費一千多萬，法務部調查局花了870萬，高雄市刑事警察大隊花了44萬，數位部前瞻計畫研發多媒體鑑識平臺花費1,300萬，林林總總，在選舉期間警政署、調查局還成立了AI生成或深度偽造假訊息處理中心。我時間有限，我就請教國安局或者是數發部，你們有沒有一個整合單位？就是對於AI深偽這部分專門成立一個小組來整合一下，你看各單位都在花錢，有沒有這個東西？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，事實上，深偽是偵訊的一個延伸，是手段的不同。也就是說，假訊息的呈現方式有文字、有語音，現在有影像，加了AI技術以後越做越仿真。事實上，本局跟相關政府機關和警政署、司法警察、調查局，我們已經成立一個這種假訊息防制的機制平臺，所以針對AI這樣的新的現象，我們也在這個平臺會有討論，剛剛看到的這幾個部分，有些是我們共同討論出來的，因為AI的發展太快速，我們必須要有這些高新的AI技術設備，才有辦法去因應這樣一個虛假訊息的應處。"],["賴委員士葆：就是說，你們現在已經有一個整合的……"],["張副局長元斌：有。"],["賴委員士葆：是你們整合的嗎？國安局整合還是數發部？"],["張副局長元斌：我們是掌蒐，是情報體系去掌蒐這個訊息，另外的應處是由政府體系，那我們這個……"],["賴委員士葆：數發部有沒有接受你的指揮，有沒有？這個部分。"],["張副局長元斌：數發部是應處的一環，我們是掌蒐的一環，但這兩個是密切協作。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一個問題是大家很關心的，就是蔡英文前總統被深偽之後，一天就找到IP了，其他人都找不到啊，幾個月都找不到啊，包括鄭文燦的找不到，包括其他的立委們，弄了老半天也找不到，外界質疑你們在追這個事情的時候還大小眼耶！還看背後是誰受害，蔡總統的亮度很夠，馬上一天就找到，代表你們很有能力啊！其他人卻搞一個月都找不到，這個部分副局長要不要解釋一下？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，我們在處理訊息的過程有一套機制，有一套程序，影響到國家安全或社會安寧，這種影響擴大、快速的話，我們會優先來處理……"],["賴委員士葆：所以總統優先，其他不優先？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，不是這樣，就是說我們看到這樣的議題跟現象……"],["賴委員士葆：外界高度質疑啊，就是看人在辦案啦！"],["張副局長元斌：不是因為身分啦，是看它影響國安跟社安的程度，還有發生的現象。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊，總統影響國安大，立委沒有涉國安所以就不要緊，就慢慢來，現任立委就有被偽造啊！"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，我們那個是有分級啦，是分一般民眾還是影響國安層級。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊，沒有錯啊，所以總統比較短啦，時間快速啊，立委就慢慢來，立委不重要，就這樣，大小眼，就這樣！"],["張副局長元斌：不是這樣啦，因為很多涉及到個人……"],["賴委員士葆：你剛剛的解釋就是這樣啊！"],["張副局長元斌：涉及到個人的話，我們尊重他個人，這是告訴乃論，他去檢舉或揭發……"],["賴委員士葆：人家都告了、都檢舉啦，你們就這樣子。"],["張副局長元斌：對，這個我們會尊重，而且尊重後續司法的承辦。"],["賴委員士葆：好吧，我們希望不要大小眼啦，好不好？"],["張副局長元斌：沒有，絕對沒有。"],["賴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快．我看你對副所得稅還不是很清楚勒"},{"start":439.713,"end":445.032,"text":"需要多少時間?署長需要多少時間?署長一個月夠嗎?付所得稅喔!"},{"start":446.389,"end":475.509,"text":"委員,負所需其實真的很少國家採取。我知道,但是這個觀念上要思考。而且負所需是制度性的,它並不是針對特定行業給予的。那可以給我們三個月嗎?可以,三個月的時間。就你剛剛跟部長的答覆了解一下怎麼樣救臺灣的農民,他的農地的情況已經免徵填庫了,但是他的農業所得仍然遠低於司法院所規定的生活所得。農業部的政策補助,綠色對地補助,再怎麼樣也不能滿足他。"},{"start":476.529,"end":485.615,"text":"我們要解決農民因為農地被限制不得做其他使用但是農業生產又很難維持他基本生活這個困境國家要面對好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時28分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請莊部長和賦稅署宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好。我從你們的土地史料陳列室有看到一個土地稅的史料，國父孫中山先生說，土地漲價不能是地主的不勞而獲，所以要平均地權、要照價徵稅，漲價要歸公。請問漲價歸公的邏輯是什麼？是因為地主的地價不是他的貢獻造成的，是因為政府的公共建設、是因為社會的繁榮，是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，漲價歸公就不是自己的勞力、努力支出的，然後因為整個成長以後，這個漲價的部分應該要歸公。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地價會上漲除了社會的發展，還有政府的建設投資之外，還有什麼會決定地價不一樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然買賣啦，對不對？"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是啦，是關於我們都市計畫土地的劃分，你是住宅區、商業區、工業區還是農業區，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這是由誰決定的？地方政府決定的嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，政府。"],["鍾委員佳濱：產業發展有需求，都市計畫更動，地主被動接受，好壞全憑運氣，你覺得這樣公平嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然因為你劃分到不同的都市計畫的區位以後，自然對於地價的估算上就有不同了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊，那地主他完全不能決定，被動接受，如果被劃成農業區呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：它的使用限制就不同，使用限制也不一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來講農民，最近的國土計畫引起農民很關切，假設有兩兄弟，一個繼承良田，他的農地依目前的國土計畫，他不可能變更用來做農業使用，但是氣候變遷造成農產欠收，他不見得能維生。但是如果他的弟弟繼承到的土地是貧瘠的，經過國土計畫法、都市計畫手段後，它可能化為非農業使用，資產暴增，你覺得這樣子繼承到農地難道是一種原罪嗎？繼承到良田難道是一種原罪嗎？你認為這樣合理嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然不是個人的原罪。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們看怎麼改變呢？你來看一下，現在的農民就算繼承了良田，生產力再高、豐收，他的銷貨收入可能還遠不如一塊貧瘠的農地去種光電，或者都市計畫之後地價暴增，你知道這個情況嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：了解！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你的權責內願不願意幫助農民？"],["莊部長翠雲：幫助農民當然是政府整體的職責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你怎麼幫助？你作為一個財長，怎麼幫助？稅法！我們來看一下，人民為什麼要繳稅？因為人民要對國家有貢獻嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我的收入越高，我繳的稅越多。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果我繳的稅超過我應該對國家的貢獻，會不會退稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：依照法規如果是超過的話，當然是會退稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我是個農民，我幫國家維持糧食生產，維持良田，讓它做農業生產，但是田賦的價值很低，過去的田賦價值遠少於農民維持國家良田的貢獻，所以我們國家才停徵田賦嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：田賦是停徵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：田賦停徵是你決定的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：田賦停徵應該是行政院吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：行政院決定的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：財政部絕對不會停徵稅啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：那是法規權責……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一定是行政院認為農民對國家的貢獻遠大於他的田賦，所以就不用繳了，對不對？那你財長會支持嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：您說哪一個？"],["鍾委員佳濱：停徵田賦你支持吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！現在就停徵，應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不會要求要復徵田賦吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。那我們來看一下，你知道土地稅法第二十二條有這個規定，農業用地是徵收田賦對不對？但是都市土地如果屬於公共設施尚未完竣前，仍然做農地使用者，是不是不收地價稅，改徵田賦？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！是改徵，但田賦就不用繳嘛！所以就免稅嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：假設我是一個工廠老闆，我買了一塊工業區的土地，但是因為道路還沒有完竣，我沒辦法開始生產營運，所以我就不會有營業所得稅，不止如此，如果我繼續維持農業生產，國家不會給我徵地價稅，還不會給我收田賦對不對？是不是這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：工業區的土地在公設內……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！都市計畫內如果劃為工業用地，道路未完竣時，我繼續做農業使用，你是不徵稅的嘛！第二十二條寫得很清楚，不熟嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：依照條文是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒錯啦？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。但是如果我的農地上，因為政府沒有給我做農業灌溉設施，所以我的農地生產力很低落，那政府要怎麼辦？不能給我免稅啊！我已經是免徵田賦啦，你要怎麼補償我？工廠的老闆可以免徵地價稅，只要他繼續做農業使用，但我的農地上，政府沒有給我做灌溉設施，你怎麼補償我？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分在主管的農業部應該會有他們相關的作法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你猜到了一部分，但我再跟你提醒一個部分，有沒有聽說過負所得稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：有聽說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有關負所得稅，曾經在貿協的一個資料裡面，泰國的他信前總理提出負所得稅，用這個方式來解決社會不平等，有沒有聽過？"],["莊部長翠雲：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不止不用繳稅，國家還給他錢，什麼情況下呢？來，給你看，您說得沒有錯，綠色環境給付──這是農業部的，因為農民幫國家維持優良的糧食生產環境，所以會給它綠色給付，但這個綠色對地給付比照司法院所認為的每一個人民必要生活費是遠遠不足啊！也就是說，我們的司法院認為一個人民應該維持生活的最低收入，如果換成農糧署現在綠色環境給付的對地補助事實上是不夠的，你覺得怎麼辦？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關這個部分，我想農業的部分，他們會去考慮對農民的補助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業已經盡力了，接下來要靠你。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我請你看一下，如果農民的年淨所得，加上農業部給他的綠色環境給付，還不足以維持司法院所認為的生活所必需，有沒有可能我們用負所得稅的方式來思考一下怎麼樣維持農民的基本生活？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關所得稅，我想第一個，如果所得沒有到一個課徵標準的話，並不會課所得稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以才叫負所得稅啊！所得不到一定標準，不只不要課稅，我還給你錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：因為可能所得稅是零，我覺得應該從另外一個補助或補貼的方式來做，才會比較及時啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，你好好去思考一下為什麼有負所得稅的概念，我就結論了，因為主席站起來了。請研議：如果經查農地有農用事實，當農民年淨所得加上綠色環境給付計畫等政策之補助少於司法院所訂每月生活所必需數額的每年總和時，請用負所得稅概念以政策補足農民的基本生活；請就這個可行性提一個書面報告給本席，一個月內可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月夠喔？你講得這麼爽快，我看你對負所得稅還不是很清楚欸！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：署長，需要多少時間？署長，一個月夠嗎？負所得稅喔！"],["宋署長秀玲：委員，負所得稅其實真的很少國家採行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，但是觀念上要思考，對不對？"],["宋署長秀玲：而且負所得稅是制度性的，它並不是針對特定行業的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以才要研究嘛！"],["宋署長秀玲：可以給我們三個月嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以。三個月時間。"],["宋署長秀玲：謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就你剛剛跟部長的答復，了解一下怎麼樣就臺灣農民的農地情況已經免徵田賦了，但是他的農業所得仍然遠低於司法院所規定的生活所得，農業部的政策補助、綠色對地補助，再怎麼樣也不能滿足他，我們要解決農民因為農地被限制不得做其他使用，但是農業生產又很難維持基本生活，這個困境國家要面對，好不好？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。接著我們請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"157023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87030d144f5d21d2de06883678c1ed2d0dd5656bc25be71a6763ac7a6a43004f445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:15:45 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有錢人回來臺灣因為川普當選臺灣比較不會戰爭了吧這個句話對不對我們當然歡迎臺商回臺來投資是移政稅會不會重新再調整為10%"},{"start":467.389,"end":467.99,"text":"新加坡有沒有移政稅?"},{"start":497.192,"end":520.164,"text":"有沒有?新加坡沒有移政稅啊?香港有沒有移政稅?所以在這一個一個新的布局的稱號所以我說川普當選你有很多制度你應該去想一想是不是應該要充分的來討論一下我們希望愛台灣"},{"start":521.693,"end":545.628,"text":"做大台灣做強台灣然後多多照顧這些年輕人你看看在新加坡新加坡啊他大學畢業平均的薪資大概是多少一畢業進入這些企業單位薪水是多少大概是八九萬九萬的新台幣"},{"start":546.923,"end":552.845,"text":"好,我們現在公營這個機關的這些招新人員的時候,大學畢業考進來的話,底薪是多少?各個公司應該不太一樣,對。好,隨便你講兩間。臺營多少?臺營新進的員工?進菜啦,進菜講幾句。"},{"start":569.195,"end":574.7,"text":"大學畢業剛考進來啦剛考進來應該4、5萬吧差不多吧4萬沒有到4萬啦你們大概是3萬多啦不管啦我的意思就是說你3萬多人家新加坡就是9萬人才大量的流失啊"},{"start":597.179,"end":622.39,"text":"沒有的話你去調查看啊臺大職工系每次畢業的大概200個學生大概一半以上可能跑去香港跑去新加坡人才沒有留在臺灣不為臺灣的企業所留用好可惜啊所以部長希望你好好來思考一下包括川普當選以後國安基金現在的規模是多少"},{"start":623.659,"end":639.207,"text":"目前是五千億五千億要不要思考調高到一兆以上讓台灣更有韌性讓台灣面對各種挑戰的時候可以更加從容的應付所以部長我覺得"},{"start":644.193,"end":671.058,"text":"財政部部長不是只有管錢進出進出過路財神而已啊其實你的一舉一動可以帶動臺灣10年20年包括離島可能是一個長遠的一個發展所以拜託部長在稅制上好好思考一下怎麼樣對臺灣是最大的幫助包括剛剛所講的那個以外還有"},{"start":672.011,"end":694.245,"text":"全世界沒有娛樂稅啊娛樂稅要不要重新調整還也有一個對你們稅收最穩定你們最開心的政交稅當沖現在的擠來不及當沖降稅現在已經快11月一晃就12月了你今年年底的日落條款就到了"},{"start":696.143,"end":721.6,"text":"當沖降稅年底之前會不會過?你有沒有把握?目前案子在大院當然是由大院來進度是由大院我們也希望能夠在今年年底前能夠定案那明年才可以順利的舉動我們下午才要再協商而已協商要送到院會還要待多久的冷凍期啊所以希望部長可以思考一下剛剛以上本席所說的質詢加油謝謝"},{"start":725.63,"end":727.698,"text":"謝謝劉委員 接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時15分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長，你看起來慈眉善目，最重要的還是要體恤所有老百姓的辛苦，現在物價飆漲，事實上很多基層的老百姓、很多年輕人是叫苦連天啊，一個便當以前六十、七十塊，現在一個便當可能就要130、150，實在是很辛苦。我們看到今年的稅收又超徵接近三、四千億，拜託，可不可以優先考量一下，把這個錢平均的發給每一個民眾1人1萬塊的紅包，拜託、拜託，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我想這個部分，大家都很重視所謂的財政紀律，所以對於實徵數超過預算數的部分，我們會先從減少舉債、增加還債，然後納入歲計賸餘來做。委員剛剛提到，有些民眾生活的辛苦，我們認為進入國庫以後，再由國庫做資源的調配去幫助一些真的需要幫助的民眾。我們在社福支出上，事實上整個支出占了歲出大概有26%、27%，是占了最高，所以我們希望這個錢能夠給真正需要幫助的民眾，我想這個部分一直是政府努力在做的。"],["羅委員明才：部長，上一次發了6,000塊，1萬塊，其實民眾很有感，因為總是聊勝於無，至少對年輕人來講心裡是很安定的，因為外在的環境變動，如果1萬塊放在自己的口袋裡又溫暖，冬天又到了，實際上又可以自己來支配使用，這才是對全民真正的照顧。我們在這裡審總預算，我們看到一筆下去國防支出可能就是五千億，甚至因為現在川普當選了，還叫我們要提高國防經費，那個都是天文數字。與其很快就通過這些民眾感覺不到的數字，倒不如回歸給民眾一點溫暖，本席在這裡還是再次拜託部長，你好好來斟酌一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：現在川普當選了，事實上臺灣整個經濟的局勢上上下下，面對未來可能又有很大的衝擊跟變化，在114年的總預算裡面，有沒有什麼大環境改變的時候部長想要去做的？譬如說剛剛講到物價飆漲，所有的公股銀行今年的薪資會不會再調升，今年就是明年啦，會不會有這樣的準備？另外，我看到一個很辛苦的，有一些國營的銀行每個月的餐飲費，部長，你知道他們一個月餐飲費多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：大概是2,400至到3,000吧？我知道……"],["羅委員明才：700塊，你查一下，有人是3,000，那個是民營的銀行、半公股銀行，但公股銀行幾十年沒調，他的餐飲費一個月是多少？700塊。部長，700塊的話，大概一天的餐飲費是多少錢？30天。"],["莊部長翠雲：除以22天，約三十幾塊。"],["羅委員明才：就是不到30塊。部長，請將心比心，你如果是這些國營銀行的員工，一天只有不到30塊的飲食、用餐費，你覺得這個夠嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於國營事業裡面的員工福利，有一些是由行政院統一規範的，有一些是公司內部可以去做思考的，比如說他們都有職工福利委員會，類似這樣的可以去做因應，我想這個部分涉及到……"],["羅委員明才：不管嘛，你是大家長。"],["莊部長翠雲：我當然是支持對於國營事業的員工在福利上應該多予照顧。"],["羅委員明才：部長，你要照顧一下，因為這不是光光……你現在當部長，那過去一年、兩年、三年、四年，我們是希望一個永續的經營團隊，你現在做其實很重要，我看到現在民間聘用這些金融人員薪資又高，福利條件又好，所以造成現在這個階段你錄取、招新人，你招不到啦，好的人招到也留不住。光是講這個餐飲費好了，最基本的吃便當，一想到這個，他就沒有心情做下去了，別人同樣同工同酬，外面吃的是大魚大肉，不要說大魚大肉，一個便當可能是150塊，這些國營銀行的人員每天中午吃便當是25塊，不到30塊。部長，不到30塊要吃什麼？總不能每天吃泡麵吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：國營事業、我們的相關機構要對員工的福利多予照顧，部裡面基本上是支持的。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝，趕快想出一個方法來。另外一個就是川普的時代已經來臨了，我覺得在總預算裡面看起來都很保守，那就是保守有餘，開創不足。比如說遺贈稅好了，我們看到在去年度，書面報告（三）地方政府遺產及贈與稅短少補助4億7,000萬，其實遺贈稅以前最低稅率是幾%？"],["莊部長翠雲：10%。"],["羅委員明才：目前是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：最低稅率也是10%，然後有15%跟20%。"],["羅委員明才：有10%、15%、20%？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["羅委員明才：不過，如果說要鼓勵臺商或者更多的資金回來，配合金管會彭主委推動的，讓臺灣打造成為一個資產管理中心。部長，你需不需要更多的臺商或者世界的有錢人回來臺灣？因為川普當選，臺灣比較不會戰爭了吧！這句話對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當然歡迎臺商回臺來投資。"],["羅委員明才：遺贈稅會不會重新再調整為10%？"],["莊部長翠雲：在遺贈稅裡面，上一次調高稅率以後，它的金額是會撥入到長照基金裡面去。"],["羅委員明才：可是過去的歷史……"],["莊部長翠雲：長照基金，我們人口老化的話，讓他們可以有更好的照顧。"],["羅委員明才：比例低，回來的錢會更多啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊、是啊。"],["羅委員明才：而且如果臺灣以後不會發生戰爭，那更應該要有另外一個思維。請問新加坡有沒有遺贈稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：新加坡有沒有遺贈稅……"],["羅委員明才：有沒有？"],["宋署長秀玲：好像沒有。"],["羅委員明才：新加坡沒有遺贈稅，香港有沒有遺贈稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：每一個國家的稅制不同。"],["羅委員明才：一個新的布局的參考，所以我說川普當選，有很多制度你應該去想一想，是不是應該要充分的來討論一下？我們希望愛臺灣、做大臺灣、做強臺灣，然後多多照顧這些年輕人。你看看在新加坡，新加坡大學畢業的平均薪資大概是多少？一畢業進入這些企業單位的薪水是多少？部長，大概是新臺幣八、九萬，那我們現在公營機關在招新人員的時候，大學畢業考進來的話，底薪是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：各個公司應該不太一樣。"],["羅委員明才：隨便你講兩間，臺銀多少？臺銀新進的員工，你隨便講幾間。"],["莊部長翠雲：隨便講？"],["羅委員明才：你認真講，土銀的話是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟他進來的階級也有不同。"],["羅委員明才：沒有，大學畢業剛考進來啦。"],["莊部長翠雲：剛考進來應該差不多四、五萬吧！"],["羅委員明才：幾萬？"],["莊部長翠雲：4萬。"],["羅委員明才：沒有到4萬，你們大概是三萬多，不管啦，我的意思就是說，你們是三萬多，人家新加坡薪水是9萬，人才大量的流失，不然你去查查看啊，臺大資工系每次畢業大概200個學生，大概一半以上可能跑去香港、跑去新加坡，人才沒有留在臺灣，不為臺灣的企業所留用，好可惜，所以希望部長好好來思考一下，包括川普當選以後，國安基金現在的規模是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前是5,000億。"],["羅委員明才：5,000億，要不要思考調高到1兆以上，讓臺灣更有韌性，讓臺灣面對各種挑戰的時候，可以更加從容的應付？所以部長，我覺得財政部部長不是只有管錢進出，過路財神而已，其實你的一舉一動可以帶動臺灣10年、20年，包括離島，可能是一個長遠的發展，所以拜託部長在稅制上好好思考一下，怎麼樣對臺灣是最大的幫助。包括剛剛所講的以外，還有全世界沒有娛樂稅，那娛樂稅要不要重新調整？還有一個，對你們稅收最穩定、你們最開心的證交稅，當沖現在來得及、來不及？當沖降稅，現在已經快11月，一晃就12月了，你今年年底的日落條款就到了，當沖降稅年底之前會不會過？你有沒有把握？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前案子在大院，當然是由大院來……進度是由大院……我們也希望在今年年底以前能夠定案，明年才可以順利推動。"],["羅委員明才：快來不及了，我們下午才要再協商而已，協商要送到院會，還要多久的冷凍期？所以希望部長可以思考一下以上本席的質詢，加油！謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的期許，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，接著我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"157022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87080148958083d084dc7cef15d9be6ba6d5656bc25be71a6714c0753048fa81f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:25:33 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":267.159,"end":273.244,"text":"你也是被告被傳訊了續產會也有人被交保如果這是一個正常的董事會發現一間公司還沒有成立就可以拿到農業部的單子他們不會覺得有問題嗎?現在農業金庫之所以可以沒有擔保把10億借給續產會問題就出在農業金庫的董事結構"},{"start":293.959,"end":304.624,"text":"根本沒有人可以在董事會裡面起到監督制衡的作用。部長,你覺得有人可以在董事會裡面幫我們的農民監督嗎?我在講,我在講,我在講,農業金庫裡面剛才你講的五席董事全部都是農業部提名。"},{"start":317.45,"end":337.177,"text":"獨立董事主要的義務是在加強企業的內部控制不受利益牽制股東會的時候要勇於發出反對的意見結果這個功能現在完全喪失他就是農業部的上途上途疲倦所以農業部你簡直就是球員兼裁判啊難怪他現在農業金庫會虧損累累啊農業金庫有他的相關的農業金融法"},{"start":342.939,"end":347.443,"text":"所以我現在就建議你我不是只要罵你我也不是只要criticize你我現在是要告訴你說本席認為要讓農業金庫走向正軌應該要依公司法第192之1條的規定"},{"start":366.681,"end":393.619,"text":"讓持有已發行股份總數比例以上股份的股東可以用書面向公司提出讀懂候選人名單而不是用農業部一把抓這樣才能夠保障股東的權益落實公司治理你自己仔細看啊農業金庫它不是一般公開的公司它是依農業金融法它是一個特別法農業金庫存在的目的就是要支持農漁"},{"start":395.94,"end":410.088,"text":"這個農民榆木體系的金融穩定那部長你說他有獨特的政策性任務所以獨董需要由農業部推薦這根本就是錯誤的命題嘛那請問台肥公司是不是也有重要的政策任務"},{"start":411.417,"end":419.502,"text":"臺北市一個公開發行或是公開發行的不一樣這兩個不一樣臺北市港開發行不一樣這兩個是不一樣的你再去問一下經濟部部長、郭部長你去請教他一下嘛中小企營跟農業金庫也是一樣啊他飯工股又有將近30拍啊但是他也是疫情公開發行的"},{"start":436.073,"end":456.926,"text":"只要有一攤以上的股份的股東就有這個獨立董事的提名權所以你的說法是不正確的嘛所以我要求農業部就這個農業金庫獨立董事可以呢如同台肥或中小企銀一般回到公司法的公司"},{"start":457.526,"end":460.287,"text":"規定,那你可以調整嗎?你願意調整嗎?你也可以修改嗎?你也可以內部修改嗎?你願意修改嗎?為了簽督,為了簽督,是啊,那你為了簽督它更好的運作。"},{"start":475.595,"end":475.635,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":494.428,"end":498.351,"text":"農業金庫現在的運作到底有什麼樣的問題嗎?你可以問所有的農民我們現在農業金庫的貸款哪一個農業金庫是正確的?我們就是站在農民的角色"},{"start":517.367,"end":517.387,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時25分）主席，我想請陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部的陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長午安。應該還沒有肚子餓吧？"],["陳部長駿季：應該還沒有那麼早。"],["張委員嘉郡：還可以喔？"],["陳部長駿季：還可以。"],["張委員嘉郡：好。部長，我今天想要質詢有關於農業金庫獨立董事派任的議題，您認為因為農業金庫有重要的政策任務，所以現在不適合變更選任制度，但本席想要請教您，農業金庫的股權結構現在是什麼樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：就誠如您的表所畫的，農業部本身大概有將近37、38%左右，民股的部分大概是占百分之五十幾。"],["張委員嘉郡：所謂民股就是農漁會體系，將近六成都是農漁會的錢，農漁會的錢是誰的錢呢？就是農民跟漁民的錢。農業部加上農業信用保證基金，就是泛公股只占了四成的股權，有六成都是農漁會的錢，就是我們全國農漁民的存款。請問這些農漁會有權在我們農業金庫的董事會中發出聲音，做出決議嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：股東大概分為兩個部分，一個是一般的股東，一般的股東跟股權的結構會有一定的比例；另外獨立董事的部分是由農業部來推薦，但是農業部推薦的部分也有大概兩席……"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席要告訴你的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，那相對地也有一些農會的代表，然後還有專業人士，因為獨立董事需要專業人士。"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席要告訴你的，你們只有40%的股權卻占了三分之二共10席董事，董事長也是農業部指派，而有六成股權的農漁會代表全國的農漁民，卻只有五席董事，可以說農業部在農業金庫根本就是有權無責，可以不顧股東的權益。為什麼不顧股東權益呢？你知道農業金庫現在的損益是如何嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：農業金庫基本上我所知道的部分，大概今年是虧損54億。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，54億，虧損累累，但六成股權的農漁會卻根本沒有辦法在農業金庫的董事會中出聲。最近的一個例子就是中央畜產會向農業金庫借了10億買雞蛋，請問畜產會有擔保嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想由中央農信保來擔保，然後它現在……"],["張委員嘉郡：農信保只有保5億，所以有5億是沒有擔保的，你等於左手通右手。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，15億不是借了不還的，它現在已經剩下三千多萬的雞蛋……"],["張委員嘉郡：中央畜產會沒有任何擔保，僅靠農信保就從農業金庫搬了10億，這個過程是誰同意的？是誰同意的？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得不能這樣講，不能這樣講，它……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是農業金庫的董事會同意的，董事會裡面有三分之二（10席）的董事是你農業部指派的，所以你說的……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，融資的部分它已經還了剩下三千八百多萬，它不是不還錢……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個我知道，但是過程有瑕疵，它可以不用擔保就可以搬錢出去。它今天是還了，那如果它不還咧？農業部要幫它還嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：中央畜產會是依畜牧法成立的。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你說的政策目標就是方便這些團體從農業金庫搬錢嘛，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我不同意這樣講，因為中央畜產會是依畜牧法成立的。"],["張委員嘉郡：這些錢有六成都是全國農漁民的錢，那誰可以把關？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，農業金庫本身……"],["張委員嘉郡：你可以負責嗎？假設它不還，你可以負責嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這跟誰負責沒有關係，它有它的整個理事會的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：你身為農業部長，你覺得這跟誰負責沒有關係？"],["陳部長駿季：農業金庫的借貸都會透過正當的程序……"],["張委員嘉郡：中央畜產會買蛋的事情已經成為弊案了，你也是被告而且被傳訊了……"],["陳部長駿季：我個人坦蕩蕩，沒有什麼問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：畜產會也有人被裁定交保，如果這是一個正常的董事會，發現一間公司還沒有成立就可以拿到農業部的單子，他們不會覺得有問題嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個跟農業金庫沒有關係。"],["張委員嘉郡：現在農業金庫之所以可以沒有擔保就把10億借給畜產會……"],["陳部長駿季：它有農信保。"],["張委員嘉郡：問題就出在農業金庫的董事結構，根本沒有人可以在董事會裡面起到監督、制衡的作用，部長，你覺得有人可以在董事會裡面幫我們的農漁民監督嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，農業金庫肩擔了所有農民貸款的部分，這個貸款是農業金融支持的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：那我再講一點，在農業金庫裡面，剛才你講的5席董事全部都是農業部提名，獨立董事主要的義務是在加強企業的內部控制，不受利益牽制，在開股東會的時候要勇於提出反對的意見，結果這個功能現在完全喪失，他就是農業部的橡皮圖章，所以農業部簡直就是球員兼裁判，難怪現在農業金庫會虧損累累啊！農業部可以不用負責嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：農業金庫有與它相關的農業金融法，它的董事會有董事會的職權，獨立董事是獨立的。"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就建議你，我不是只要罵你，我也不是只要criticize你，我現在是要告訴你，本席認為要讓農業金庫走向正軌，應該要依公司法第一百九十二條之一的規定，讓持有已發行股份總數1%以上股份的股東可以用書面向公司提出獨董候選人名單，而不是由農業部一把抓，這樣才能夠保障股東的權益，落實公司治理，你自己仔細看啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，農業金庫不是一般公開的公司，它是依農業金融法，這是一個特別法。"],["張委員嘉郡：我要再講，農業金庫存在的目的就是要支持農林漁牧體系的金融穩定，部長說它有獨特的政策性任務，所以獨董需要由農業部推薦，這根本就是錯誤的命題嘛！請問台肥公司是不是也有重要的政策任務？"],["陳部長駿季：台肥是一個公開發行……它是公開發行……"],["張委員嘉郡：台肥就是泛公股……"],["陳部長駿季：這兩個不一樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：它泛公股也有32%，台肥獨立董事的選任也是依照公司法，1%以上就可以提名……"],["陳部長駿季：台肥是公開發行的公司，這兩個是不一樣的。"],["張委員嘉郡：你再去問一下經濟部郭部長，你去請教他一下，中小企銀跟農業金庫也是一樣啊！它泛公股也有將近30%呀！"],["陳部長駿季：中小企銀也是公開發行的，農業金庫不是公開發行的，台肥是公開發行的。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是它也是依循公司法，只要持有1%以上股份的股東就有獨立董事的提名權，所以你的說法是不正確的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：您的講法、您的資訊也不對。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以我要求農業部就農業金庫獨立董事可以如同台肥或中小企銀一般，回到公司法的規定……"],["陳部長駿季：中小企銀是公開發行的公司。"],["張委員嘉郡：那你可以調整嘛！你願意調整嗎？你也可以修改，你也可以內部修改啊！你願意修改嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：農業金庫本身兼顧了農民的貸款，所有專案貸款的部分、利息差額補貼的部分都是由農業部來支應的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！那你為了監督它運作得更好，你可以讓出農業部的權力，讓這個獨董的提名更加貼近民意嗎？你是不是不願意嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，我們不可能……"],["張委員嘉郡：你是不是不願意嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：農業金庫具有政策上的金融支持的目的。"],["張委員嘉郡：我的問題就是，包括你之前想要提名的董事長，他在農業金庫的呆帳那麼多，你也想提名他當董事長啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我想請問委員，農業金庫現在的運作到底有什麼樣的問題嘛？"],["張委員嘉郡：你們就是沒有辦法站在農漁民的立場嘛！那你還在講什麼政策目標？"],["陳部長駿季：你可以問所有的農民，現在農業金庫的貸款，哪一個農民有反對的？"],["張委員嘉郡：你在講什麼政策目標？我的意思就是說，如果你有站在農民的角色……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們就是站在農民的角色……"],["張委員嘉郡：你就可以把獨董的提名權讓出來嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們就是站在農民的角色。"],["張委員嘉郡：什麼？你說你們站在農民的角色，什麼部分？"],["陳部長駿季：對，你可以問農民，我們現在的專案貸款……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是這樣胡亂提名嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在的專案貸款……"],["張委員嘉郡：就是這樣胡亂提名、胡亂虧損、胡亂借錢嗎？這10億有擔保嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。部長請回座。好，謝謝。","下一位質詢請呂玉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","林俊憲","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","蔡易餘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於農業部及所屬單位預算部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、\n農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00002"}}},{"id":"157021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e871aae2a58ead0ae63117a57b012903f1cd5656bc25be71a679258d6461fda9c085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:20:22 - 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謝謝主席 有請交通部陳部長好 我們請交通部陳部長好 這個首先針對今天幾個我們委員修法的第一個提案"},{"start":22.079,"end":39.973,"text":"那把我的看法提出來首先是無照駕駛因為10月份一個15歲的算青少年然後說偷來車開出去然後就撞死了三條人命那事實上沒有駕照尤其青少年孩子們"},{"start":40.794,"end":69.423,"text":"他們不管是騎機車、衝出去或者開車不光是對所有的用路人非常危險對自己的生命我覺得也非常輕忽我看你們報告有特別來寫每一天無照駕駛每一年被抓到的案件大概都30萬上下今年1到10月大概22.7萬所以這個數字是蠻多的其中一個再犯比率因為你們現在的規定"},{"start":70.943,"end":82.987,"text":"罰款的部分是六千到兩萬四但是五年內如果第二次再來那直接罰最高的兩萬四那被罰兩萬四我們發覺重複比例高達39%其實這中間有個意義啦"},{"start":86.803,"end":109.264,"text":"他可能每天都在開啦只是不想被弄到兩次啦所以這個的部分這種不管是僥倖的程度或者你分析這個問題我是真的覺得我們交通部跟我們這個司長甚至整個監理體系你們真的要去好好思考到這個問題啦那目前這個是朝向提高罰款的方向來修嗎"},{"start":110.385,"end":116.65,"text":"除了提高罰款之外我們針對吊扣牌照的部分如果它是累犯的話吊扣牌照的部分我們也會提高"},{"start":118.404,"end":142.315,"text":"好 那我們看看無照駕駛部分青少年的部分其實我們也是覺得蠻憂心的 蠻憂心的那整個部分正好監察院的調查報告今年的4月11號也出來了嘛他這邊講說兒少無照駕駛警方雖然持續起跌我們副組長也上來一下這個持續起跌但仍然沒有這個有效的改善"},{"start":143.355,"end":163.605,"text":"確實我們警政機關是在最後一線設防但是我們前面假設可以擋的不擋住漏過去其實現有的警力他們這麼繁忙不見得能夠有效去做處理那我們請問一下副署長對青少年無照駕駛你就覺得要怎麼樣去改善他們這些人的一個行為你在執法端你有沒有什麼一個建言"},{"start":166.192,"end":192.024,"text":"目前我們路邊在交通稽查的時候那我們查獲到這些青少年無照駕駛如果是載學學生的話我們都會在剛剛我的報告裡面就特別提到我們會給學校希望能夠納入列管來輔導甚至於我們也希望說學校輔導他們去考駕照"},{"start":194.858,"end":215.783,"text":"好 那也要輔導家長這個交通工具很奇怪尤其汽車就這樣被開出去我是覺得這個部分是整個社會要一起來做那我還是問一下警政署這個副署長那接下來講變造車牌啦我們看到這個數字剛剛很多委員都講囉從109年來看到113年到今年還沒到年底啦"},{"start":216.363,"end":225.387,"text":"大約可能會成長10倍成長10倍就是變造車牌被抓到的一個數量這個數字是滿可觀的尤其113年跟112年比的話"},{"start":228.57,"end":253.436,"text":"預估直接成長3倍抓到這個數量那剛剛其實林俊彥委員講的我認為是一個確實的事實那我特別統計啦我沒有做表出來從去年6月30號我們新增把超速40公里認定為危險駕駛之後直接調扣車牌6個月6個月之後呢我統計了從7月1號開始"},{"start":255.296,"end":265.037,"text":"到今年的二月為什麼這樣統計呢因為他有很多申訴期啊你統計到這個月他就講說還不一定還在申訴所以我們乾脆就統計到二月八個月的時間"},{"start":266.684,"end":287.999,"text":"因為超速40公里被抓到的有6萬5千次那其中真正吊扣真正吊扣的先不要假車牌先不談這個真正最後被吊扣大家就6萬5就吊扣6萬5啊到底發生了什麼怎麼有人超速40不用吊扣呢"},{"start":290.08,"end":314.999,"text":"結論是吊扣三分之一沒有吊扣平均吊扣比例是66%所以第一個問題剛剛林俊賢委員講的我也是建議你們好好思考一下啦如果修法不能執行或者抓到人之後他比較大尾他理由比較充足他含淚來他說他去接誰你們撤銷理由你們自己去研究我本來專題來報告這不是今天一個重點但是奇怪了就是這麼多人超出40%抱歉40公里"},{"start":317.941,"end":338.553,"text":"然後沒事的你自己看嘛6萬5只有4萬34萬3被調控就我剛講這8個月的時間那到底什麼原因呢什麼原因呢那如果說原因有這麼多人可以免那是不是考慮你們是不是法律有問題是不是法律有問題那除了變造車牌之外"},{"start":340.302,"end":359.919,"text":"還有其他的像我們中立前陣子抓到因為疫情都有口罩奇怪他的車也感冒了他的車牌也放口罩去遮各種招數都有那確實這個一定我們覺得非常有機率不管是他為了違法是一個治安後續大案件的一個問題"},{"start":361.26,"end":383.173,"text":"第二個他是想他是違規避免我們飆車這等等的這個部分部長你剛才總結一下針對這個部分你們現在什麼時候會把案子送到立法院來報告委員我們希望在一個月之內能夠送到委員會來然後希望在這個會期看可不可以審議的可以通過那你這麼慢那我們要自己先審啦還是要等你啊"},{"start":383.913,"end":407.071,"text":"我們會加速我們會加速快一點啊是是我們整體的版本已經都擬定好了然後這兩天會送到行政院那很快的速度會送到大院那部長或者署長或者法務部法務部不用上來了你們覺得說你們現在要立一個法我覺得你們要稍微細節一點啦剛剛好多委員都在談這個問題到底法規是不是"},{"start":407.931,"end":432.986,"text":"讓大家很容易違法呢是不是40公里是危險駕駛那是不是要修成50公里呢還是怎麼回事我們事實上常常在走突然平均的時速假設60公里突然他寫一個公區公區30說真的你根本也沒有辦法所以這個的部分我倒是覺得警政署或者交通部也不知道是誰你們去研究一下有沒有那種變造車牌是變造成自己號碼的"},{"start":436.098,"end":459.918,"text":"你聽懂我意思嗎我變造了半天其實這個東西就不是犯案啦我變造了半天就是過去的行為我變造車牌偽造車牌偽造成我自己行造的號碼這種其實我知道是不少喔他其實他只是想要開車而已啦他也沒有犯案那這個東西我覺得你們要值得去研究最後啊這個署長周署長其實大家請錄裂喔謝謝那個"},{"start":465,"end":473.416,"text":"我們有提到就是發展觀光條例70之二條啦那這個的部分我是給你建議一下第一個"},{"start":474.912,"end":500.693,"text":"我們現在想第一個問題我們給他10年的時間不管是教師會館、香客大樓甚至救國團的新年活動中心等等的他什麼事都沒做現在又要來跟我們要幾年如果是這樣我也覺得怪怪的如果是這樣可是我要再真的做一個報告就是你們總共列館的這些零零總總包括香客大樓等等的118家"},{"start":503.018,"end":518.456,"text":"一百一十八家因為現在數字沒有出來大家會想說好像三五千家跟旅館業影響的幅度大概多大一百一十八家那現在是不是都沒處理處理完畢的六十三間"},{"start":519.798,"end":521.059,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":542.979,"end":569.503,"text":"轉型呂素月的有9家然後依照這個規費收規費啦我不不營利了齁包括景觀會館等等的還要轉做其他用途的好吧那我們就餐飲啦或者會議場址總共已經處理處理完畢63家齁大概53%所以這10年不是沒有成果我現在講很多人努力在想要轉型上代處理的55家齁那我們來看一下"},{"start":570.967,"end":598.153,"text":"因為大家都講說不要這個都救國團可是因為我覺得這種說法有點不公平啦因為數字怎麼說呢118家救國團也12家啦你就算總數他也10%百分之十啦那有更多的地方地方很多的香客大樓教師會館甚至娛樂勞工娛樂中心他還需要時間處理所以我要在這裡也要拜託觀光署跟部長"},{"start":599.153,"end":626.456,"text":"他還有有意繼續要經營那在有很多案他已經在申請中了但因為疫情的關係說真的不是我們用疫情所有的工程因為延期軟硬體全部都延期那他們現在也提出來因為疫情兩到三年這個時間讓他們有點延誤那這個正在申請中的又有33家而且按照觀光署給我們的回報"},{"start":628.656,"end":657.078,"text":"這33家呢現在已經在申請中間的階段甚至要收尾了預計在明年到期日之前大概有12家可以申請到那後面持續要申請的有21家所以我在這裡是不是建議說這個審到這個法條的時候是不是能夠給他們一些彈性我們並沒有要改變你法律的本質呂樹葉本身就要合法但是時間他有些剛剛我講了已經有拼過的"},{"start":658.54,"end":678.777,"text":"還在努力中的再給他一些時間我相信這是我們提的這個部分部長你看你怎麼說報告委員還在努力中的等一下我跟署長來討論一下看什麼樣的機制可以讓他能夠趕快可以趕快完成他所努力的方向那這個時間的部分我們也盡量討論一下看有沒有可能給他一些彈性好謝謝委員好謝謝盧明哲、張偉的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":439,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時20分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：我們請交通部陳部長。"],["魯委員明哲：首先，針對今天我們委員修法的幾個提案，把我的看法提出來，首先是無照駕駛，因為10月份一個15歲的青少年偷車開出去，然後就撞死了三個人。事實上沒有駕照，尤其青少年孩子們，他們不管是騎機車衝出去或者開車，不光是對所有的用路人非常危險，對自己的生命，我覺得也非常輕忽。我看你們的報告特別提到，無照駕駛每一年被抓到的案件大概都30萬件上下，今年1到10月大概22.7萬件，所以這數字是蠻大的，其中一個再犯比率，因為你們現在規定罰款的部分是6,000到2萬4,000，如果五年內第二次再犯，直接罰最高的2萬4,000，我們發覺被罰2萬4,000的重複比率高達39%，其實這中間有一個意義，他可能每天都在開，只是不小心被抓到兩次。所以這種不管是僥倖的程度，或者你分析這個問題，我是真的覺得交通部跟司長，甚至整個監理體系，你們真的要去好好思考這個問題。目前這是朝提高罰款的方向來修嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：除了提高罰款之外，如果他是累犯的話，吊扣牌照的部分也會提高。"],["魯委員明哲：我們看看青少年無照駕駛的部分，我們也是覺得蠻憂心的，監察院的調查報告今年4月11號也出來了，提到兒少無照駕駛，警方雖然持續取締，但仍然沒有有效的改善，確實我們警政機關是在最後一線設防，但是假設我們前面可以擋的不擋住，現有的警力這麼繁忙，不見得能夠有效去處理。請問一下副署長，對青少年無照駕駛，你覺得要怎麼樣去改善他們的行為？你在執法端有沒有什麼建言？"],["李副署長政曉：目前我們在路邊執行交通稽查的時候，查獲到青少年無照駕駛的話，如果是在學學生的話，在剛剛我的報告裡面就有特別提到，我們會給學校，希望納入列管來輔導，甚至於我們也希望學校輔導他們去考駕照。"],["魯委員明哲：好，也要輔導家長，很奇怪，交通工具尤其汽車就這樣被開出去，我是覺得這個部分整個社會要一起來做。我還是要問一下警政署副署長，接下來講變造車牌，我們看到這個數字，剛剛很多委員都講，從109年到113年，今年還沒到年底，大概可能會成長10倍，就是變造車牌被抓到的數量，這個數字是蠻可觀的，尤其113年跟112年比，預估直接成長3倍。剛剛林俊憲委員講的，我認為是一個確實的事實，我特別也統計，我沒有做表出來，從去年6月30號新增把超速40公里認定為危險駕駛，直接吊扣車牌6個月的規定之後，我統計了從7月1號開始到今年的2月，為什麼這樣統計？因為還有申訴期，你統計到這個月，他說還不一定，還在申訴，所以我們乾脆就統計到2月，共8個月的時間，因為超速40公里被抓到的有6萬5,000次，其中真正吊扣牌照的，先不談假車牌，大家想說被抓到6萬5,000就吊扣6萬5,000啊，到底發生什麼事，怎麼有人超速40公里不用吊扣？結論是三分之一沒有吊扣，平均吊扣比率是66%。所以第一個問題，就像剛剛林俊憲委員講的，我也是建議你們好好思考一下，如果修法不能執行，或者抓到人之後，因為他比較大尾、他理由比較充足、他含淚懇求、他說他去接誰，撤銷的理由你們自己去研究，我本來要安排專題報告，這不是今天的重點，但是奇怪了，就是這麼多人超速40公里，然後沒事的。你自己看嘛！6萬5,000只有4萬3,000被吊扣，就我剛剛講的這8個月時間，那到底什麼原因呢？如果有這麼多人可以免，那是不是法律有問題啊？除了變造車牌之外，還有其他的，像我們中壢前一陣子抓到，因為疫情都戴口罩，奇怪！他的車也感冒了，他的車牌也用口罩去遮，各種招數都有，所以這個我們覺得非常有機率，不管是他為了違法，是一個後續治安大案件的問題，第二個是他想說他是違規，避免飆車被抓到等等。部長，你再總結一下，針對這個部分，你們什麼時候會把案子送到立法院來？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們希望在一個月之內能夠送到委員會來，然後希望在這個會期看可不可以審議通過。"],["魯委員明哲：那你們這麼慢，我們要自己先審，還是要等你？"],["陳部長世凱：不會，我們會加速。"],["魯委員明哲：要快一點啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們整體的版本已經都擬定好了，這兩天會送到行政院，很快的會送到大院。"],["魯委員明哲：部長或署長，或是法務部，你們現在要立一個法，我覺得你們要稍微細節一點，剛剛好多委員都在談這個問題，到底法規是不是讓大家很容易違法呢？超速40公里是危險駕駛，那是不是要修成50公里呢？還是怎麼回事？事實上我們常常在走，平均時速假設60公里，突然一個牌子上寫「工區」，工區速限30公里，這你根本也沒有辦法。所以這部分，我倒是覺得警政署或交通部，我不知道是誰，你們去研究一下，有沒有那種變造車牌是變造成自己號碼的？你聽懂我意思嗎？我變造了半天，其實這個東西就不是犯案啦，我變造了半天就是過去的行為，我變造車牌、偽造車牌偽造成我自己行照的號碼，這種情形我知道其實不少，他其實只是想要開車而已，也沒有犯案，這個東西我覺得值得去研究。","最後，周署長，發展觀光條例第七十條之二，我是跟你建議一下，第一，如果我們給他10年的時間，不管是教師會館、香客大樓或救國團的青年活動中心等等，他們什麼事都沒做，現在又要來跟我們要幾年，如果是這樣，我也覺得怪怪。可是我要再做一個報告，就是你們列管的這些林林總總包括香客大樓等等118家，現在數字沒有出來，大家會想說好像三、五千家，對旅館業影響的幅度大概多大，但其實是118家，現在是不是都沒處理？處理完畢的是63間，53%，什麼叫做處理完畢？我不做了，不做了算不算處理完畢？我處理完畢了嘛，為什麼呢？這些人、預算要往哪裡走，我要處理沒那麼簡單耶！就算是放棄經營，也需要時間來安排這些人力，因為畢竟都是準公家機關，這些人力不是你fire掉就可以了。所以總共63家，轉型旅宿業的有9家，然後依規費法收取規費、不營利的，包括警光會館等等，還有轉作其他用途的，可能餐飲或會議場址，總共已經處理完畢的是63家，大概53%。所以這10年不是沒有成果，很多人努力想要轉型，尚待處理的55家，那我們來看一下，因為大家講不要都說救國團，可是我覺得這種說法有點不公平，因為數字是怎麼說的，118家，救國團有12家，你就算是算總數，它也只有10%，而有更多的地方，像是香客大樓、教師會館，甚至勞工育樂中心，這些還需要時間處理。","所以我在這裡也要拜託觀光署和部長，它還有意繼續經營，有很多案子它已經在申請中了，但因為疫情的關係，說真的不是我們應付疫情，所有的工程因為延期，軟硬體全部都延期，那他們現在也提出來，因為疫情兩到三年，這個時間讓他們有一點延誤，正在申請中的又有33家。而且按照觀光署給我們的回報，這33家現在已經在申請中間的階段，甚至要收尾了，預計在明年到期日之前，大概有12家可以申請到；後面持續要申請的有21家。所以我在這裡建議，審到這個法條的時候，是不是能夠給它們一些彈性？我們並沒有要改變法律的本質，旅宿業本身就要合法，但是時間上它有些……剛剛我講了，已經有拼過的、還在努力中的，再給它一些時間，這是我們提的部分。部長，你怎麼說？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，還在努力中的部分，等一下我跟署長討論，看什麼樣的機制可以讓它趕快完成其所努力的方向；時間的部分，我們也儘量討論一下，看有沒有可能給它一些彈性。"],["魯委員明哲：好。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委的質詢。","我們接下來請蔡其昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e870c26b370b16c5da8117a57b012903f1cd5656bc25be71a67efb3babcbf3bc8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:08:24 - 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委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":152.725,"end":178.512,"text":"你在國外只要是有行人穿越巴馬線的部分它的照明一定是特別加強政府為了解決所謂行人地域花了多少錢花了幾百億去改善所謂的危險道路危險路口光線這種光線那當然危險你要知道我們法律上"},{"start":180.123,"end":207.401,"text":"行人的光線、行人行道的光線是有規定的不然我給你一個參考交通規則規範這是我們交通部自己訂的行人穿越道照明標準有在寫沒在做我們照講行人穿越道的光線你是要達到一定的亮度結果都沒有了你看一看你是不是應該做一個總檢討否則啦"},{"start":210.968,"end":239.059,"text":"回到上一頁你注意看這個顯不合理的分配每一年那麼多新人死亡他的時間都集中在反而車輛比較少的晚上然後肇事者經常最常講的就是說他看不清楚了人突然間竄出來了包括前幾天發生的台中公車撞死大學生也是這樣子有一件車禍也很出名"},{"start":240.595,"end":268.994,"text":"其實我們的賴思寶委員他不是撞到人那媒體不知道怎麼樣把他的行車紀錄器拖出來坦白講那看起來真的是很黑暗賴委員他也這麼講賴思寶委員也這麼講他說那個光線不是很清楚他沒有看得很清楚所以我現在請交通部你既然有訂這樣的一個規範交通工程規範行人穿越到照明標準那你就要照做"},{"start":270.458,"end":295.598,"text":"那我再給你 再給部長一個參考你在國外除了光線以外你車輛要到那個人行道你要讓它減速台灣完全沒有這樣一個設計你怎麼讓它減速呢最容易做的就是用物理性的東西就所謂的緩速道 緩速台來讓車輛減低速度我再給你看一下一個是韓國的"},{"start":299.651,"end":307.754,"text":"這個是新加坡的韓國的車輛你要來到人行道它一定會經過一個緩速台就是會讓你的車輛不得不減速然後我們台灣要過斑馬線因為我都從高雷站我都是習慣走路到立法院來我每次要走斑馬線我一定要從人行道跳下來"},{"start":329.775,"end":354.49,"text":"因為人行道比較高嘛斑馬線比較低嘛是不是如果嬰兒推車你要推推或是你拿貨物要過斑馬線你要先從人行道跳下來才能走斑馬線你看國外都不會有這個問題新加坡、日本他們都把人行道稍微做高啦做高喔因為它旁邊要做緩速台那人行道做高第一個"},{"start":355.575,"end":371.386,"text":"也斑馬線做高,你從連行道走下來,不必有跳下來的感覺啦,比較安全以外。你人你走也走比較遠啦,因為它有一個,它等於有一點高度嘛,所以駕駛也比較容易看到那裡有行人。但是我們這邊沒有啦,台灣只會教育行人。你出門要穿亮色衣服,這什麼,這多愚蠢的建議啊。"},{"start":385.077,"end":387.759,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":410.005,"end":422.598,"text":"兩邊要做緩速台,讓車輛經過它的時候,強迫它一定要減速。受理工委,你看你的行人死在人行穿越道,案件有減少嗎?都沒有嗎?"},{"start":425.751,"end":451.911,"text":"我希望你這個部分你們要趕快去改善你再說的那個光線的部分我們現在的道路改善的部分有把這個部分都拉進來那還有很多的路段前幾天才剛出現一個死亡車禍這個我清楚所以那個部分已經有做檢討您剛剛在講的東海女學生來我現在沒什麼時間我延續一下剛剛那個黃健豪委員所問您的問題那為什麼現在啊假車牌那麼多你們自己要統計啊"},{"start":455.806,"end":484.154,"text":"檢察局有統計使用腳車牌原因是什麼腳車牌什麼時候開始增多其實是去年就增多了來看這個表2022年一年我現在用的是嚴重超速的件數因為這時間點非常配合嚴重超速我們原本是超速60公里吊扣車牌2023年去年把它改成超速40就吊扣車牌"},{"start":485.424,"end":490.967,"text":"所以這個案件吊擺的數字多了四倍從一年一萬五千五百五十件變成六萬件我們修改法律的目的在幹嘛是希望能夠嚇阻啦希望能夠減少犯罪行為這是我們修法的目的啦你修了一個法結果那麼多人違規"},{"start":514.431,"end":524.015,"text":"你如果多一點點就算了你多了四倍那表示啊你這個法律啊會讓很多人可能是不小心就違法政府要超出多少拔掉人造車牌啊你應該先檢討啊你的訴訟有合理嗎公共電視台做了一個這樣的專輯節目跑去台灣找他說你的訴訟有合理嗎"},{"start":543.285,"end":547.147,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":571.069,"end":597.641,"text":"他抓到了就成長6倍這個是有抓到假車牌有抓到就成長6倍那有關係嗎?警察局我們的警政署有分析使用偽造車牌的樣態為什麼?什麼原因你們要使用偽造車牌?38%是因為他車牌被調控有將近4成我的車牌用烤的所以逼他要去用假車牌"},{"start":600.001,"end":623.031,"text":"那這些被調貨車的車輛沒有車牌車子就不能開嘛那很可能是家庭用車啦我要載孩子啦我要載大人啦我要上班啦對不對那有的是營業車輛那不能做生意啊那怎麼辦剛好你剛有提到了假車牌現在很容易買啦就這樣弄起來像火一樣燒起來了"},{"start":625.202,"end":633.748,"text":"所以你現在抓到假車牌你就直接把車輛給沒路我認為使用假車牌還是有其他樣態啦如果拿來犯案犯罪那個車輛當然直接沒路啦那假車牌他做什麼事情那吊牌主要原因是超速那政府有沒有去檢討我們各地速限的合理性"},{"start":652.899,"end":660.881,"text":"等等那我認為法律上還是要做一個比較現有的法律什麼樣的狀態下你的車牌、你的車輛會被沒路其實都是非常嚴重的啦你有重傷啦你弄海溪人啦弄溪人、擋凶車輛才有沒路我現在列出來給你看部長只有這些狀況下車輛才會沒路你現在使用腳車牌車子要直接沒路"},{"start":682.932,"end":705.168,"text":"那我們的法律規範上就只要用假車牌就直接摸入嗎還是有沒有再細分一下我們未來新的修法的方向目前是只要使用假車牌車子就會被摸入這我有時間的問題啦 抱歉我們主席已經站起來了那這個部分我們在後續再來做一些討論好不好謝謝部長 謝謝局長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時8分）謝謝主席，本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["林委員俊憲：部長你好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長你新上任，所以我覺得民生第一，我都跟你討論一些關於交通上影響最多民眾的，我現在跟你講的是，前幾天發生了一個不幸車禍，臺中的公車撞死了東海大學的一位女學生，司機說因為天色太暗，他只看到兩個黑影，然後就撞到。另外，在很多次車禍發生的時候，駕駛經常在他的口供裡面講：是行人突然間竄出來的。","臺灣被稱為行人地獄，我們來看看什麼樣的狀況下是行人最危險的時候，我說的是一天的時段，夜間真的最危險，相關數字我提供給部長當參考，最近五年多來，行人因交通事故而死亡，最多都是在晚上6點到清晨6點，就是下半天、黑夜的時候行人最危險，黑夜的時候為什麼最危險？有可能是開車的人不守規矩，但是我這裡統計的是A1類的交通事故，你看白天跟黑夜的部分，其實照理講白天車輛最多，因為大家要上下班，但為什麼晚上的時候，反而行人致死至少是白天的50%到一倍、兩倍，差別非常大，所以臺灣的夜晚是行人地獄裡面最恐怖的時候。我們來看一下，你看這黑夜、白天差多少！部長這樣看得到嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有看到。"],["林委員俊憲：這麼暗的狀況下，過馬路會安全嗎？開車都不一定看得到斑馬線了，但另外這張是不是很亮？抱歉，這不是臺灣，而是韓國，在國外只要是有行人穿越斑馬線的部分，它的照明一定是特別加強。政府為了解決所謂行人地獄花了幾百億去改善所謂的危險道路、危險路口，像剛才那種光線當然危險，你要知道，我們法律上人行道的光線是有規定的，部長，我給你一個參考，交通工程規範，這是交通部自己訂的，裡面就有行人穿越道照明標準，但有在寫、沒在做，照理講行人穿越道的光線要達到一定的亮度，結果都沒有！請你看一看，所以你是不是應該做一個總檢討？否則就像上一頁提到的，這是顯不合理的分配，每一年有那麼多行人死亡，時間反而都集中在車輛比較少的晚上，然後肇事者最常講的就是他看不清楚，人突然間竄出來，包括前幾天發生臺中公車撞死大學生一案也是這樣子；有一件車禍也很出名，就是我們賴士葆委員撞到人，媒體不知道怎麼樣取得的，把他的行車紀錄器播出來，坦白講，看起來真的是很黑暗，賴士葆委員也這麼講，他說那個光線不是很清楚，他沒有看得很清楚。所以現在請交通部，既然有訂這樣一個規範，即交通工程規範，裡面有行人穿越道照明標準，那你就要照做。","我再給部長一個參考，在國外除了光線以外，車輛經過人行道，你就要讓它減速，但臺灣完全沒有這樣一個設計，你怎麼讓它減速呢？最容易做的就是用物理性的東西，就是用所謂的緩速台來讓車輛減低速度。我再給你看一下，這一個是韓國的，另外一個是新加坡的，韓國的車輛當來到人行道，一定會經過一個緩速台，就是會讓你的車輛不得不減速，然後我們臺灣的部分，因為我都習慣從高鐵站走路到立法院來，每次要走斑馬線，我一定要從人行道跳下來，因為人行道比較高，斑馬線比較低，是不是？如果是推嬰兒推車，或者是你拿貨物要過斑馬線，你要先從人行道跳下來才能走斑馬線，你看國外都不會有這個問題，新加坡、日本他們都把人行道稍微做高，因為它旁邊要做緩速台，當斑馬線做高，你從人行道走下來，就不會有跳下來的感覺，除了比較安全以外，民眾也是走在高一點地方，因為它等於是有一點高度，所以駕駛也比較容易看到那裡有行人。但是我們這邊沒有，臺灣只會宣傳或教育行人晚上出門要穿亮色衣服，這是多愚蠢的建議，你為什麼不把人行道的光線弄亮一點？還有，過斑馬線時手要舉高在那邊搖，讓車輛可以看到你，但為什麼不把這個地方稍微墊高一點，讓一般行人從人行道下來走斑馬線時是平的，然後也有一點高度，而且兩邊你要做緩速台，讓車輛經過的時候，強迫他一定要減速，數字會說話，你看行人死在行人穿越道的案件有減少嗎？都沒有！好，我希望這個部分，你們要趕快去改善。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所說光線的部分，我們現在道路改善的部分，有把這個部分都納進來，還有很多的路段……"],["林委員俊憲：前幾天才剛出現一個死亡車禍。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我清楚，所以那個部分已經有做檢討，您剛剛講的東海女學生……"],["林委員俊憲：我現在沒什麼時間了，延續一下剛剛黃健豪委員問你們的問題，為什麼現在假車牌那麼多？你們自己也有統計，據警察局統計，使用假車牌的原因是什麼？假車牌什麼時候開始增多？其實是去年就增多了。"],["陳部長世凱：對，去年跟今年。"],["林委員俊憲：來看這個表，我現在談的是嚴重超速的件數，因為這個時間點非常配合，嚴重超速的部分，我們原本是超速60公里吊扣車牌，2023（去）年把它改成超速40公里就吊扣車牌，所以吊牌案件的數字多了4倍，從一年1萬5,550件變成6萬件，我們修法的目的在幹嘛？是希望能夠嚇阻，希望能夠減少犯罪行為，這是我們修法的目的，但你修了一個法，結果那麼多人違規，如果多一點點就算了，結果多了4倍，表示這個法律會讓很多人可能是不小心就違法了。再來，到底要超速多少才拔掉人家的車牌，政府應該要先檢討你規定的速限合理嗎？公共電視臺做了這樣一個專輯節目，看看臺灣各地的速限有合理嗎？像臺灣的四線道速限卻只有50，你叫人家怎麼開車呢？部長，如果你從臺北開到板橋，我看你都很難保持全線不超車，所以你規定的速限有合理嗎？也就是在不合理以後，違規案件一年從一萬五千多件變成6萬件，相對應的時間點，抓到假車牌的件數就成長了6倍，這個是有抓到的，持假車牌有抓到的就成長了6倍，那有關係嗎？我們的警政署有分析使用偽造車牌的樣態，什麼原因讓你們要使用偽造車牌？38%、將近四成是因為他的車牌被吊扣，所以逼他要去用假車牌。這些被吊扣的車輛沒有車牌，車子就不能開，但那很可能是家庭用車，可能用來載小孩、載長輩或是供上班之用，此外，有的是營業車輛，吊扣後就不能做生意，那要怎麼辦？剛剛你有提到現在假車牌很容易買到，就這樣像火一樣燒起來了，所以現在抓到假車牌的，你就要直接把車輛給沒入，我認為使用假車牌還是有其他樣態，如果拿來犯罪，那個車輛當然直接沒入，但現在吊牌的主要原因是超速，政府有沒有去檢討我們各地速限的合理性等等，我認為法律上還是要做一個比較，現有的法律在什麼樣的樣態下你的車輛會被沒入，其實都是非常嚴重的狀況，害死人或是把人弄成重傷，車輛才會被沒入，我現在列出來給你看，部長，只有這些狀況下，車輛才會沒入，你現在使用假車牌，車子要直接沒入，而我們的法律規範上，只要用假車牌就直接沒入嗎？有沒有再細分一下？"],["陳部長世凱：未來新的修法方向，目前是只要使用假車牌，車子就會被沒入。"],["林委員俊憲：好，因為時間的闗係，不好意思，我們主席已經站起來了，這個部分我們後續再來做一些討論，謝謝部長，謝謝局長，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員健豪代）：謝謝林俊憲委員的質詢。","接下來請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157019","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e879752a655a37ebd08117a57b012903f1cd5656bc25be71a67fbd5a51b102a7b385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:57:39 - 11:08:14","影片長度":"00:10:35","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條及第十五條條文修正草案」案及(十)委員林思銘等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」案。【第（十）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案。【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-18","start_time":"2024-11-18T10:57:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T11:08:14+08:00","duration":635,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.076593750000001,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.084093750000001,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.075343750000002,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.71096875,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.11534375,"end":32.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.41409375,"end":39.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.63659375,"end":43.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.85534375,"end":49.930343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.065343750000004,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.24409375,"end":80.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.45721875000001,"end":98.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.58096875000001,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.23846875000001,"end":103.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.62221875,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.84159375,"end":105.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.22409375000001,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.47284375000001,"end":115.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.50409375,"end":147.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.01284375,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.59846875000002,"end":157.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.76596875,"end":168.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.89909375000002,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.25784375,"end":212.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.60096875000002,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.15096875,"end":247.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.50284375,"end":251.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.53596875000002,"end":254.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.65784375,"end":278.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.60784375000003,"end":281.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.71721875000003,"end":280.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.29909375,"end":320.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.73221875,"end":328.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.38034375,"end":332.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.43096875000003,"end":330.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.10159375,"end":331.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.17721875,"end":336.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.59034375000005,"end":338.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.61971875,"end":336.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.82221875000005,"end":350.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.75409375000004,"end":342.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.88784375,"end":371.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.38659375000003,"end":426.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.58034375000005,"end":452.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.47909375,"end":457.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.86659375000005,"end":460.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.51596875,"end":463.24971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.05971875,"end":490.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.45221875000004,"end":515.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.5959687500001,"end":520.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.6584687500001,"end":535.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.58846875,"end":552.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.8515937500001,"end":553.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.91909375,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.03721875,"end":554.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.76284375,"end":555.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55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部長早 署長早首先針對我們還是針對旅館業的部分當然今天會有一個要來審查所謂旅館的這個相關的這個條例那我想確認一下這旅館業裡面這管理規則部分對於消防的法規的部分的設置標準相對一般住宅是比較高的那我想問一下這個署長"},{"start":42.043,"end":66.464,"text":"過去這些年包含這次所謂列管的這些項目裡面不管是相關大樓也好或是救國團或各項這個活動中心等等的這個列管的這些案例裡面有些過去幾年它通過了那還有一些還沒有通過那我想問一個核心問題在所謂在列管的這些這個住宿型的這個單位裡面他們的消防法規有沒有定期去檢查有沒有符合這個消防的規範"},{"start":67.55,"end":86.089,"text":"一般來講都是由地方政府去執行那麼都應該要有符合那沒有符合的話地方政府直接開罰了所以第二個部分是應該說他的這個會館的部分跟旅行旅館業的部分大概應該要分開來看待是這樣子"},{"start":86.73,"end":113.398,"text":"那對旅館業委員所指教的旅館業的部分不管是觀光旅館或是飯店一般旅館跟這個所謂的這個民宿我們都有執行對當然我說今天旅館比如說觀光旅館一般旅館或者是這種民宿有所謂的消防法規嘛那也是規你們在處理那地方政府會查驗他們都合格這沒問題我現在講的是你們列館的所謂的像剛剛提到的在今天修法裡面主要談到的像這個會館"},{"start":116.9,"end":130.818,"text":"運動活動中心、青年活動中心、救國團、然後還有強革大樓等等的這些他依然有提供住宿那提供住宿的這些機構他的這個消防法規有沒有符合相關規範還是沒有符合所以沒有通過我要問的是這個"},{"start":131.579,"end":147.21,"text":"我們只主管這個公安旅館跟旅館一般旅館跟民宿那其他的話就要按照相關的法令譬如說香客的部分那當然是內政部在主管所以這個部分應該是都在執行應該都沒有什麼問題"},{"start":148.789,"end":168.582,"text":"那所以你意思是說像香客大樓它的消防法規有沒有符合可不可以住宿的規範不歸你們處理是不是因為它沒有營業的行為如果營業的行為就屬於我們的規範如果它沒有營業的行為的話那當然就是按照一般的權責單位來做管理"},{"start":168.942,"end":194.922,"text":"好 謝謝署長那接下來我們討論其他的問題這個觀光逆差的部分我想去年有推估去年是逆差超過4400億元那今年預估會達到7300億元那主要原因有連接一些社群的民調最主要原因大家認為說國內的住宿成本高是主要原因那再來是國外旅遊比台灣便宜那第三個原因是因為國內缺乏新的或新一年的景點所以導致我們這個觀光客逐年"},{"start":195.542,"end":208.169,"text":"二、黃健豪等17人、 二、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健豪等17人、 五、黃健"},{"start":213.652,"end":229.66,"text":"其實你看前幾個基本上幾個原因都跟錢就很大很大的關係基本上價錢占了最大的原因不管是出租成本還是國外旅遊的比較便宜或是國內的物價過高等等它都涉及到錢的問題所以我不知道到底交通部跟觀光署面對我們觀光衰退這部分你們有什麼樣的解決方案"},{"start":231.961,"end":254.23,"text":"這有兩個結構性的問題就是第一個就是現在出國的話大概就是國外啊國跟國之間大概都是航空的費用成本是比較高的那住宿的部分呢在台灣的結構來看我們是看國旅的部分那國旅的話它分兩個一個是平日一個是假日那現在的假日台灣的形態已經是五六日了"},{"start":254.77,"end":280.23,"text":"那平日是星期一到星期四那如果說平均房價來看那這一個部分呢我們可以看起來跟差異性不大但是因為我們現在旅遊的形態做改變了所以在國旅的部分大概一日遊佔了我們的70%所以我們一直希望國內旅遊能夠增加住宿主長這個先打斷你一下你剛剛說到這個飛機票問題我想"},{"start":282.412,"end":300.641,"text":"如果飛機票成本太高我想那是全球的問題不會只有台灣飛出國外的問題但是很顯然是我們出國的人是很多其他國家到其他國家的人數也很多唯獨其他國家來台灣旅遊的人數變得少問題在這邊所以我想歸咎於機票成本成長我覺得不是主因啦"},{"start":301.581,"end":328.295,"text":"那國內輸出成本的問題也是需要說這個交通部或觀光署啊你們應該去協調不管勞動部也好或經濟部也好其實到底成本成本一定很多原因造成的嘛不是只有不是只有補助可以解決的那到底成本為什麼為什麼會過高你們有沒有找過各單位來來瞭解過還是就是一直發發有一個部分是地價稅跟房屋稅那個逐年都增加的那因為是地方稅那這個對旅館來講他的成本確實是墊高"},{"start":329.437,"end":354.295,"text":"那這就是你們要去找相關單位來協調嗎?什麼時候會找他們來協調?我們持續都在討論什麼時候?有嗎?你們有開過那次的會議嗎?針對房價的部分我們可以專案來開一個會什麼時候?那我們也提供一個網站就是評價的這個我們叫旅宿網然後有些比較優惠的評價其實都在這個網站組長我覺得你現在講的是治標啦就是說第一時間我提供這樣就像之前物價上漲的時候提供一個所謂"},{"start":355.456,"end":355.757,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":371.778,"end":388.878,"text":"委員在指示的應該是針對整個旅宿的業者他們的成本如何降低那這個部分有關於跨部會的部分我們是不是最近趕快來啟動幾個部分一個部分包含勞動成本一個部分包含剛剛署長署報告的就是針對稅的部分的成本"},{"start":389.438,"end":413.611,"text":"這個部分看要怎麼降低這個部分我們來協助旅宿業者讓他能夠降低成本這是一方面那二方面其實台灣目前確實啦五六日假日的房價確實是相對比較高那一到四是相對是比較低的那大家很習慣都是五六日出遊所以當然是價格比較高不過我們現在還是有一些比較平價的旅館平價的飯店那這個部分我有請觀光署我們大家來整合一下怎麼讓民眾"},{"start":414.531,"end":417.874,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人及其他隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暫停車牌方式之查緝與防制暫停車牌方式之查緝與防制暫停車牌"},{"start":434.189,"end":462.781,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九旅館業而已因為觀光帶來是周邊很多的效應不是只有住宿而已所以這部分要請你們盡快處理那再來就是今天也要談到這個所謂假車牌的問題我也是感謝交通部這樣可以有新聞看得出來你們從善如流願意來採納相關的修法建議那當然這到底從過去幾年下來這個假車牌今年突然暴增我想問一下交通部有沒有掌握到底什麼原因導致今天假車牌的原因增加這麼多"},{"start":464.29,"end":487.962,"text":"假車牌增加的原因幾個方面一方面是針對這個偽造的技術跟偽造的可以買賣的這個平台大家現在日新月異那二方面呢可能是因為這個被扣被扣牌照的數字其實有提升這個部分確實有提升但民眾被扣牌照之後又希望使用那台車子所以他就會來買賣這個所謂的假車牌"},{"start":490.603,"end":520.106,"text":"當然我們今天提出修法希望說能夠去阻斷說假車牌的問題因為交通有交通問題但是我們剛剛在提案說明的時候也提過了其實最核心的是治安問題當然我們希望說治安當然用治安方式來解決就當然說沒路車輛但是我們還是希望交通部去想一下到底從去年到今年為什麼假車牌你剛剛提到的假車牌的數量為什麼突然暴增這麼多去年就幾百件耶今年已經破千了那這原因到底是什麼是因為交通法規的改變所以導致很多人被扣牌"},{"start":520.486,"end":521.928,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":536.71,"end":552.735,"text":"還有很多一般的有一些人他不是真的他要犯罪他就是他就是要開車但他的車牌被扣了那到底為什麼車牌被扣我是希望說交通部能夠去檢討一下去想一下什麼原因導致這個車牌被扣那這個原因到底出在哪裡交通部目前有研究過嗎這個部分是不是請市長"},{"start":556.511,"end":582.038,"text":"這部分跟委員報告一下當然就是使用這個假車牌的部分兩個部分嘛這個牌照被吊扣、吊銷或塑銷那另外一個部分就是蓄意可能從事犯罪行為的那個部分那針對這個吊扣、吊銷牌照這個部分那吊扣的部分有一大部分是來自於車輛遇檢的部分所以剛剛委員有提到針對如何讓車主依照規定來這個定期檢驗這個是一個後面要去加強的"},{"start":583.018,"end":583.158,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、゚"},{"start":600.99,"end":621.136,"text":"我們請局長這邊還是提供啦後續提供給本席說到底你們分析之後到底這今年跟去年差別在哪裡那為什麼今年成長這麼多這個是最主要原因那最後最後我們還是堅持說這個本來上次質詢的時候就提了原來的法則裡面就有沒入車輛那我想問一下現在的執行所謂沒入車輛會不會有困難就是懸掛假車牌偽造車牌跟委員報告應該沒有困難"},{"start":629.229,"end":631.283,"text":"好,那我們就確定的執行好不好?還是。好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時57分）謝謝主席，我們先請交通部陳部長、觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請陳部長、觀光署署長。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長早、署長早。首先，針對旅館業的部分，今天要審查所謂的旅館相關條例，我想確認一下，旅館業管理規則裡面對於消防法規設置標準相對一般住宅是比較高的，請問署長，過去這些年包含這次列管的項目裡面，不管是香客大樓、救國團或各項活動中心等等列管的這些案例裡面，有些是在過去幾年它通過了，還有一些還沒有通過，我想問一個核心問題，在列管的這些住宿型單位裡面，他們的消防法規有沒有定期檢查，有沒有符合消防的規範？"],["周署長永暉：一般來講都是由地方政府去執行，都應該要符合，沒有符合的話，地方政府會直接開罰。第二個部分，會館和旅館業的部分應該要分開來看待，對於委員所指教的旅館業部分，不管是觀光旅館或是飯店、一般旅館和所謂的民宿，我們都有執行。"],["黃委員健豪：當然，觀光旅館、一般旅館或是民宿有所謂的消防法規，這也是歸你們處理，地方政府會去查驗他們是否都合格，這個沒問題，我現在講的是你們列管的，像剛剛提到的，在今天修法裡面主要談到的如會館、活動中心、救國團及香客大樓等等，這些依然有提供住宿，這些提供住宿機構的消防法規有沒有符合相關規範？還是因為沒有符合所以沒有通過？我要問的是這個。"],["周署長永暉：我們只主管觀光旅館、一般旅館跟民宿，其他的話就要按照相關的法令，譬如香客大樓的部分，當然是內政部在主管，所以這個部分應該是都在執行，應該都沒有什麼問題。"],["黃委員健豪：對不起，所以你意思是說，像香客大樓的消防法規有沒有符合、可不可以住宿的規範不歸你們處理？"],["周署長永暉：因為他沒有營業的行為，如果有營業的行為就屬於我們的規範，如果他沒有營業的行為，那當然就是按照一般的權責單位來做管理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝署長。接下來我們討論其他的問題，關於觀光逆差部分，我想去年有推估逆差超過4,400億元，今年預估會達到7,300億元，根據一些社群的民調，大家認為國內住宿成本高是主要原因，再來是國外旅遊比臺灣便宜，第三個原因是國內缺乏新的或吸引人的景點，所以導致觀光客逐年下降，不管是國外來臺人數逐年下降之外，國旅也一直提振不起來，當然也是因為這樣子，我們的旅宿業也是叫苦連天。國內住宿成本高跟國外旅遊較便宜這部分，我不知道交通部跟觀光署你們要怎麼樣解決民眾的問題？其實看前幾個原因，基本上都跟錢有很大很大的關係，價錢占最大原因，不管是住宿成本還是國外旅遊比較便宜，或是國內物價過高等等，它都涉及到錢的問題，所以我不知道到底交通部跟觀光署面對我們觀光衰退這部分有什麼樣的解決方案？"],["周署長永暉：這有兩個結構性的問題，第一個就是現在出國，在國外、國跟國之間，航空的費用成本大概都是比較高的；住宿的部分，在臺灣的結構來看，我們是看國旅，國旅的話分兩個，一個是平日，一個是假日，現在的假日依臺灣的型態已經是五、六、日，平日是星期一到星期四，如果以平均房價來看，這部分我們看起來差異性不大，但是因為現在旅遊型態改變，所以在國旅一日遊大概占了70%，我們一直希望國內旅遊能夠增加住宿，希望……"],["黃委員健豪：署長，先打斷你一下，你剛剛說到飛機票的問題，如果飛機票的成本太高，我想那是全球的問題，不會只有臺灣飛出國外的問題，但很顯然的是，我們出國的人很多，其他國家到其他國家的人數也很多，唯獨其他國家來臺灣旅遊的人數變少，問題在這邊，所以歸咎於機票成本成長，我覺得不是主因。國內住宿成本的問題，也是需要交通部或觀光署去協調，不管勞動部也好或是經濟部也好，其實成本一定是很多原因造成的，不是只有補助可以解決的，到底成本為什麼會過高，你們有沒有找各單位來了解過？還是就是一直發補助而已？"],["周署長永暉：有一部分是地價稅跟房屋稅逐年都增加，那個因為是地方稅，對旅館來講，它的成本確實是墊高，還有一部分……"],["黃委員健豪：那你們就要去找相關單位來協調。"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["黃委員健豪：什麼時候會找他們來協調？"],["周署長永暉：我們持續都在討論。"],["黃委員健豪：什麼時候？有嗎？你們有開過類似的會議嗎？"],["周署長永暉：針對房價，我們可以專案來開一個會。"],["黃委員健豪：什麼時候？你們要不要給個時間？"],["周署長永暉：我們也提供一個網站，就是平價的，叫做旅宿網，有些比較平價優惠的，其實大家可以……"],["黃委員健豪：署長，我覺得你現在講的是治標，就是第一時間提供這樣的網站，就像之前物價上漲時提供一個比較便宜的網站或是便宜的特別區域，但是整體而言，像你剛才提到稅的問題也好，或是人事成本的成長也好，它是整體的嘛，可能偶爾短期促銷可以提供便宜的沒錯，但長期來講，整個成本還是高的，所以今天要問的是，有沒有機會找各單位來？"],["陳部長世凱：委員指示的應該是針對整個旅宿業者成本如何降低，這有關於跨部會的部分，我們是不是最近趕快來啟動。有幾個部分，一部分包含勞動成本，另一部分包含剛才署長所報告的，針對稅的成本，這部分看要怎麼降低，我們來協助旅宿業者，讓他們能夠降低成本，這是一方面；二方面，其實臺灣目前五、六、日也就是假日的房價確實相對比較高，一到四相對比較低，大家都很習慣五、六、日出遊，所以價格當然比較高。不過，我們現在還是有一些比較平價的旅館、平價的飯店，這部分我有請觀光署來整合一下，怎麼讓民眾了解，或者取得比較平價旅館的一些訊息，讓他們如果假日要出遊，不一定只有貴的旅館，他們也有一些平價的旅館可以去，這部分的資訊我們應該要趕快提供給民眾。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝部長，請你們要儘快來處理這個很嚴重的問題，不然這其實衝擊到的是很龐大的就業市場，不是只有旅館業而已，因為觀光帶來很多的周邊效益，不是只有住宿而已，所以這部分要請你們儘快處理。","再來，今天也要談到假車牌的問題，我也感謝交通部，這兩天從新聞看得出來你們從善如流，願意採納相關的修法建議。過去幾年下來，假車牌在今年突然暴增，我想問一下，交通部有沒有掌握到底什麼原因導致今年假車牌增加這麼多？"],["陳部長世凱：假車牌增加的原因有幾個方面，一方面是針對偽造的技術跟可以買賣的平臺現在日新月異；二方面，可能是因為被扣牌照的數字提升，這個部分確實有提升，但民眾被扣牌照之後，又希望使用那臺車子，所以他就會買賣假車牌。"],["黃委員健豪：我們今天提出修法，希望能夠阻斷假車牌的問題，因為交通有交通的問題，但是我們剛剛在提案說明的時候也提過了，其實最核心的是治安問題，當然我們希望治安用治安的方式解決，也就是沒入車輛，但是我們還是希望交通部去想一下，從去年到今年，你剛剛提到的，到底為什麼假車牌的數量會突然暴增這麼多？去年就幾百件，今年已經破千了，這原因到底是什麼？是因為交通法規的改變，所以導致很多人被扣牌，那是交通法規的問題呢，還是我國國人駕駛觀念有問題？如果是國人駕駛觀念有問題的話，是不是取得駕照的成本太低了？所以我希望交通部在這個事件上面，除了看到數字是假車牌很多、破千件，可能影響治安之外，還有很多一般的……有一些人他不是真的要犯罪，他就是要開車，但他的車牌被扣了，到底為什麼車牌被扣？我希望交通部能夠去檢討一下，去想一下什麼原因導致車牌被扣？這個原因到底出在哪裡？交通部目前有研究過嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，使用假車牌的有兩個部分，牌照被吊扣、吊銷或註銷，另外一個就是蓄意從事犯罪行為。針對吊扣、吊銷牌照這部分，吊扣有一大部分是來自於車輛逾檢，所以剛剛委員提到，針對如何讓車主依照規定定期檢驗，這是後面要去加強的重點。另外一個部分，現行如果吊扣牌照超過3個月以上，大概就是比較重的，像酒駕跟危險駕駛，酒駕的案件數是逐年降低的，而危險駕駛的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，我請局長後續提供給本席，你們分析之後，到底今年跟去年差別在哪裡，為什麼今年成長這麼多？這是最主要原因。最後，我還是堅持，上次質詢時就提到的，原來的罰則裡面就有沒入車輛，我想問一下，現在執行沒入車輛會不會有困難？針對懸掛假車牌、偽造車牌。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，應該沒有困難。"],["黃委員健豪：好，那就確定來執行，好不好？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來有請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e877b5542b68f1df6fdfa9b21d42de11d19d5656bc25be71a675e1aacc5385281515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:18:08 - 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氾濫,它不是趨勢,氾濫"},{"start":204.292,"end":205.092,"text":"本局負責徵訊情報的掌收如果涉及國安跟社安"},{"start":226.565,"end":246.337,"text":"這部分我們會立刻的掌搜以後透由我們在之前跟政府相關部門成立的一個機制去做辯委、溯源、處理那經由相關的單位來做事實的澄清如果涉及到違法的話那就會"},{"start":247.498,"end":272.33,"text":"後由我們的警察司法機關去請這個平台業者能夠下架那所以機制是有的現在是怎麼快速的應酬因為這個數量可能會越來越多現在你們快速你們有沒有定一個時間比如說你們必須在多久時間只要有人去通報檢舉你們必須在多少時間之內要把它檢舉掉跟我們報告這個部分重點還是在我們一方面機制有了"},{"start":272.89,"end":292.91,"text":"另外一方面我們要有相關的一個技術的引入因為用AI速度太快所以我們在我們報告裡面有提到我們會引用最新的技術不斷的去引用最新的技術的防止那技術只有國安局有嗎光只有你們有些來不及的我們相關的警察機關他們目前也有建立這樣的能量跟機制"},{"start":294.352,"end":294.552,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告"},{"start":309.292,"end":310.153,"text":"法務部調查局有見識,刑事局也有。"},{"start":326.643,"end":350.248,"text":"對,所以我們和刑事局其實是有一個共通的使用兩種工具然後基本上我們的同仁會在open source裡面先去做一些應用然後再使用鑑識工具去判別那理論上我們最快可以在至少在兩個小時內我們就可以把這個鑑識的成果先去做出來兩個小時就可以鑑識成果對不對就可以初步判定它是不是真的還假的"},{"start":351.688,"end":373.193,"text":"其實過去有好幾個政治人物的影片,到現在都沒有見識結果,所以不要變成一個只是用政治解決。好,我想問一下數發部,前兩天發生一個事情,就是Meta亂槍打鳥,該下架的沒下架,不該下架人家正版的正牌的下架,然後最離譜的連我們證交所的粉專都被人家下架,請問為什麼?"},{"start":374.973,"end":377.194,"text":"發生什麼事情?這太扯了吧?對,趕快說明啊!你到下午都不知道發生什麼事?趕快說明"},{"start":395.031,"end":423.031,"text":"那我們不管怎樣我們就是馬上那個跟臉書聯絡然後幫那些被那個下架的那些那個財經粉讓他恢復那個上架後來據我們的了解就是說是那個內政部警政署他們在通報一批那個疑似那個詐騙網站的時候結果Facebook他的海外的執行單位因為他的溝通發生問題結果他們把那些"},{"start":424.392,"end":427.314,"text":"這問題是內政部警政署的問題嗎?主席給我一點時間,內政部警政署今天副局長在,是你們出包嗎?蘇巴布現在把鍋丟到你這裡"},{"start":442.583,"end":445.486,"text":"並不是警政署、刑事警察局這邊的問題而是臉書他們內部有個篩選機制在聯繫作業的部分他們發生這個問題他怎麼會篩到正版的呢?所以你講這個黑名單應該是我們送上去的嗎?我們送給業者,請他要趕快下架為什麼一些正版的,包括我們證交所"},{"start":463.683,"end":463.703,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":477.223,"end":498.902,"text":"是真實的這部分我們有提供個白名單給他們可是他們內部在篩選機制的時候所以我們把白名單給刪掉了他們把白名單給下架他們聯繫上可能發生了一些問題所以是Meta的問題是是他們的海外問題是他們海外那邊的問題所以我們立刻跟他們反映之後他當天晚上就把這些屬於真實的網站都把它做恢復"},{"start":499.965,"end":526.88,"text":"因為我不想佔用下面委員時間那拜託請書發部請我們的警政署可不可以有一個機制我們現在是該下架的沒有下架他都活得好好的然後呢這些正版的包含我們官方的政教所算官方的這個網站都被下架這真的是很奇怪的一件事情可不可以把這個機制你們再把它弄得更清楚一些"},{"start":528.081,"end":550.807,"text":"可不可以保證不再發生這樣的狀況?是,這部分我們會把它做得更好當然,我們內部、國內一定不會發生這個問題跟委員報告這臉書大家都在看嘛你現在不是你國內、國外的事情就是說這個事情事實上大家討論得很多而且也怕大家對我們的打詐變成沒有信心好不好?是好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時18分）謝謝主席，我請國安局張副局長還有數發部次長、調查局副局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：大家好，辛苦了。先來看一個影片。","（播放影片）"],["王委員鴻薇：這個影片非常清楚的，這影片其實也是利用AI來製作，主要就是來做詐騙，今天是我們很關心的，也就是AI影片對國安的一些威脅，事實上人民現在最有感的就是來自於這些的詐騙，他們把這些真的財經名人，也許他只是一個說明，然後變成是詐騙的工具。","我們也可以看到，我們一直在打詐、打詐，雖然打詐四法上路，但光是投資詐騙，我們每一個月，10月跟9月都超過4,000件，每個月都在增加。另外，光是臺北市，投資詐騙就被騙走15億，一個月！臺北市一個月投資詐騙就有十五億之多，所以像這樣AI的假影片，也許我們今天可能討論的是包含像高嘉瑜委員或者是于北辰議員，那些對他們當事人來講，當然會覺得很困擾，也很生氣，可是對民眾來講，就是直接造成他金錢的損失，所以我想請問哪一位長官可不可以回復我一下，像這樣AI假影片的詐騙，到底有沒有辦法防堵？我們現在有些什麼樣的策略？"],["張副局長元斌：委員好，國安局先回答，等一下如果相關的單位也可以來補充說明。針對這種AI技術的演進，它生成這種深偽的影片應該已經是趨勢了，這個沒有辦法阻擋，所以重點是……"],["王委員鴻薇：氾濫，它不是趨勢，是氾濫。"],["張副局長元斌：它已經是一個氾濫，但重點就是我們如何應處，事實上假影片也好或者是偵訊也好，我們政府之間已經有成立一個機制，包括本局是負責這種偵訊情報的掌蒐，如果涉及國安跟社安，這部分我們會立刻掌蒐之後，透由我們之前跟政府相關部門成立的一個機制去做辨偽、溯源、處理，經由相關單位來做事實的澄清，如果涉及到違法的話，那就會透由警察司法機關去請這個平臺業者能夠下架，所以機制是有的，現在是怎麼快速的應處，因為這個數量可能會越來越多。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，像現在你們說快速，你們有沒有訂一個時間，比如說你們必須在多久時間，只要有人去通報檢舉，你們必須在多少時間之內要把它解決掉？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，這個部分重點還是在我們……一方面機制有了，另外一方面，我們要有相關技術的引入，因為用AI速度太快，所以我們在報告裡面有提到我們會引用最新的技術，不斷的去引用最新的技術來防止。"],["王委員鴻薇：這技術只有國安局有嗎？光只有你們有是來不及的！"],["張副局長元斌：相關的警察機關目前也有建立這樣的能量跟機制，掌握了以後我們才有辦法去做通報跟應處。"],["王委員鴻薇：我可不可以請調查局或者是其他單位來說明一下，在打詐的部分你們可以怎麼樣來做？"],["吳副局長富梅：委員好。跟委員報告，調查局的部分是受理案件的部分，當案件成立立案之後，我們局裡面會先發動做分析鑑識……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道法務部調查局是有鑑識的，刑事局也有。"],["吳副局長富梅：對，所以我們和刑事局其實是有一個共通的使用兩種工具，基本上我們的同仁會在open 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{"start":17.338,"end":37.12,"text":"部長,我先請教,上禮拜有問到濾烈溪的問題,現在雲林、雲林以南都淪陷了,這問題嚴重,上次有講到20萬支,我看到你們在接下來有4個年度,必定大概1.2億的經費,每年大概3000萬來做處理,部長接下來要怎麼做?"},{"start":37.662,"end":50.062,"text":"我想第一個我會把經費再做一些調整第二個部分就是經費怎麼調整我想現在目前編列的部分大概是他是跟還有一些那個叫做那個"},{"start":51.96,"end":79.119,"text":"埃及聖環本身的一些經費我們可以做調整。埃及聖環本身的這些獵捕的這些動作其實可以複製在濾鏈系的部分。那相對的埃及聖環本身它有一組團隊用獵槍的方式去處理。那濾鏈系的部分現在是沒有。所以未來我們會組一個團隊。所以會朝向用空氣槍的方式。對,類似這樣。"},{"start":80.7,"end":102.212,"text":"有沒有一個目標啊?因為你四年每年三千萬這樣子其實第一年最重要的其實要趕快嚇阻下來如果你二十萬是要慢慢漲到三十、四十上去你越來越難處理了我現在就擔心的就是我們捕捉的數量比他、遠比他繁殖的數量你一定要比他還要來得快,不然就是他只會越來越多嘛有沒有預定這個量?"},{"start":103.072,"end":115.797,"text":"我先跟委員報告我們現在會用民間如果抓的話我們也給他獎勵這個獎勵金提高的話我想全民民間現在是大字500小字200嗎?再加碼多少?比照嗎?"},{"start":119.438,"end":133.179,"text":"我們會可能會用200,變成500或800的方式,變成500、800的方式去處理。小至500、大至800。對,用這樣的方式去處理。加碼到小至500、大至800。對,類似這樣子的概念,我們會精算。那預定可以達到多大的成效?量,量多少?"},{"start":138.999,"end":158.57,"text":"我們現在會協調縣市政府啦,因為過去這段時間...預定的目標咧,總要編的預算總要一個預定目標吧,20萬支希望...我們希望捕捉的那個支數可以逐年開始減少啦,對,因為現在...捕捉支數要增加啦,總體的量沒有辦法補算,對,所以我們每年捕捉的...有沒有一個預定的量?"},{"start":160.023,"end":169.719,"text":"預算要編出來,總要一個目標值吧?我們希望4年內可以讓它壓縮到在這個高雄、屏東、以南那不能夠往北擴"},{"start":171.323,"end":171.363,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":194.014,"end":215.756,"text":"聽起來你好像屏東高雄以南那難道先放屏東高雄其他先抓?屏東高雄現在也在抓我一定說部長這個總體要數量要降下來我希望看到有個具體的成果比如說如果明年的目標先把10萬隻都抓下來的話那你至少控制住了一半的數量了嘛"},{"start":216.116,"end":245.127,"text":"對我跟委員報告齁就是第一個部分就是各縣市我們一定讓他同步然後因為上禮拜開始我們密集的討論那到時候年度的目標我想我們會後等這個規劃出來以後我們再提供給委員當參考要加快那個速度啦你後面賞越多你越難處理啦你前面如果有辦法在明年度把它控制比如說控制到10萬隻甚至10萬以下的數量的話那你至少取得一個出息率很大的一個成功你後面的控制就更好控制嘛"},{"start":245.407,"end":268.708,"text":"瞭解我想我們會查這個目標來做加碼然後用更專業的方式去捕捉然後用人道的方式來做處理我認為這是一個好的方法我希望加大力道然後一定要統籌啦要不然你這邊抓完那邊跑這邊抓那邊跑縣市間沒有統籌的話由部會間然後由農業部來加碼來做處理我認為是個有效我期盼明年好不好至少降一半好不好"},{"start":269.389,"end":276.593,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":299.364,"end":324.595,"text":"因為前面黃色的大概在12月初大概陸續都會出來了啦應該影響是不大那應該現在看比較大的大概在會在1月的上旬、中旬的時候發生嘛對不對大概年就是年前的部分啦過年前開始如果量過大的話有可能是這種那時候但是就不會再做我還是希望加強做宣導跟說明好不好對我們會來強調那特別是我們在做警示的時候的疫苗廠"},{"start":325.515,"end":344.476,"text":"我們現在想辦法控制苗量的出貨啦。苗量出貨農民就會受。所以其實那個應該是說苗量超過一定以上告訴你你這些苗將來如果你虧損我是不服服你的。對所以我們會更積極的。前面如果在前面出的應該那些還是要去。我們針對前端的這些疫苗檔出貨的部分我想我們會更想到一個方法。"},{"start":344.616,"end":351.239,"text":"非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利"},{"start":369.529,"end":371.011,"text":"公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性公平性"},{"start":385.769,"end":402.667,"text":"現在目前齁其實龍虎幫過去齁大部分都是銷中國大陸但是這幾年來齁其實內銷的部...國內的使用的部分也增加了最主要目的就是以前都是整隻在吃現在很多切片的部分那銷往其他國家的還有嗎?美國的部分其實也在推"},{"start":404.606,"end":405.927,"text":"除了石斑魚之外其實包括虱目魚包括吳郭魚包括鱸魚包括"},{"start":430.985,"end":434.166,"text":"我希望這幾個魚種都是很好的養殖魚種也都很好的競爭力我希望都持續的推出去了好不好"},{"start":460.293,"end":486.902,"text":"讓漁民有更好的收益我剛講這幾個都是很好的漁種大家認為是最好吃的養殖漁種所以我認為應該努力的推出去好不好走向世界你看那個我們到比例持續都還得到三星高雄的虱目魚我認為就是不斷的行銷不斷走出去才能達到最好的一個效果再來最後問一下過去基金其實也辦過由於秋刀魚都是石斑魚虱目魚都是高雄的五寶"},{"start":487.822,"end":516.904,"text":"那魷魚過去在2015、2016都有辦過魷魚節部長可不可以再來支持臺灣魷魚節固定在期間來舉辦我想我們一定支持齁特別是一些魷魚的部分還有鮪魚的部分它在高頻的疫區有沒有它年度的那個所謂的活動的部分會帶領一些明年六月一樣是魷魚的高峰期回來的時候啦能不能每年固定六月來期間辦魷魚節好不好部長可以嗎可以可以啦全力支持好不好明年等六月一起來辦好不好"},{"start":517.766,"end":517.786,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時16分）好，謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：前面兩個委員都講得很好，我都給予認同，併同我的一併支持。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我先請教，上禮拜有問到綠鬣蜥的問題，現在大概雲林以南都淪陷了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這問題越來越嚴重，上次有講到數量是20萬隻，我看到你們在接下來有4個年度編列大概1.2億的經費，每年大概3,000萬來做處理。部長，接下來要怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，我會把經費再做一些調整。第二個部分就是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：經費怎麼調整？"],["陳部長駿季：目前編列的部分，它是跟一些外來種，叫做埃及聖䴉，埃及聖䴉本身的一些經費，我們可以做調整。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個可能要優先一點啦！"],["陳部長駿季：更重要的就是，埃及聖䴉本身的這些獵捕動作，其實可以複製在綠鬣蜥的部分，相對地，埃及聖䴉本身有一組團隊用獵槍的方式去處理，綠鬣蜥的部分現在是沒有，所以未來我們會組一個團隊去處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，所以會朝向用空氣槍的方式來獵捕？"],["陳部長駿季：對，類似這樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有沒有一個目標？因為你4年，每年3,000萬，其實第一年最重要，要趕快遏阻下來，如果20萬隻讓牠慢慢長到30、40萬上去，你越來越難處理。"],["陳部長駿季：我現在擔心的就是我們捕捉的數量遠比牠繁殖的數量……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你一定要比牠還要來得快，不然牠只會越來越多嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：一定要比牠還要快，所以我們現在也考慮……"],["賴委員瑞隆：有沒有預定這個量？"],["陳部長駿季：我現在先不討論量，我先跟委員報告，我們現在會用民間如果抓的話，我們也給他獎勵的方式，這個獎勵金提高的話，我想全民……"],["賴委員瑞隆：民間現在是大隻500，小隻200嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再增加，再加碼。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再加碼多少？比照嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們可能會把200變成500、800的方式，變成500、800的方式去處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：小隻500、大隻800？"],["陳部長駿季：對，用這樣的方式去處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：加碼到小隻500、大隻800？"],["陳部長駿季：對，類似這樣子的概念，我們會精算。"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定可以達到多大的成效？來，署長請。"],["林署長華慶：報告委員，我們現在會協調縣市政府，因為過去這段時間縣市政府……"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定的目標呢？要編預算總要有一個預定目標吧？20萬隻，希望能夠……"],["林署長華慶：我們希望捕捉的隻數可以逐年開始減少，因為現在……"],["賴委員瑞隆：捕捉隻數要增加啦！"],["林署長華慶：現在總體的量沒有辦法估算。"],["賴委員瑞隆：總體的量要減少。"],["林署長華慶：對，所以我們每一年捕捉的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：有沒有一個預定的量？"],["林署長華慶：我們現在……"],["賴委員瑞隆：預算要編出來，總要有一個目標值吧！"],["林署長華慶：我們希望4年內可以讓牠壓縮到在高雄、屏東以南，不能夠往北擴。"],["賴委員瑞隆：壓到高雄、屏東以南，高雄、屏東不重要嗎？總數量要壓到……"],["林署長華慶：當然還是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我這樣講啦！你要壓到高雄、屏東以南，你一定數量要整個壓下來啦！"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：牠會跑的嘛！"],["林署長華慶：所以現在各縣市要同步，現在的問題是有些縣市沒有……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我的意思是說都要同步來進行，這一定要以專案的方式來處理。"],["林署長華慶：對，部裡面也全力給我們支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：雲林以南都已經淪陷了，所以你應該每一個都要做，而且你不要只抓……聽起來你好像說要壓在屏東、高雄以南，難道要先放掉屏東、高雄，其他地方的先抓？"],["林署長華慶：沒有，屏東、高雄現在也在抓，但是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我的意思是說，部長，總體的數量要降下來……"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望看到有個具體的成果，比如說如果明年的目標先把10萬隻都抓下來的話，那你至少控制住了一半的數量了嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我跟委員報告，第一部分就是各縣市我們一定讓它同步，然後因為上個禮拜開始我們密集地討論，到時候年度的目標，我想我們會後等規劃出來以後，我們再提供給委員當參考。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，要加快速度啦……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道、我了解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：否則後面越生越多，你就越難處理了，你前面如果有辦法在明年度把牠控制，比如說控制到10萬隻、甚至10萬隻以下的數量的話，那你至少在初期取得一個很大的成功，後面你就更好控制嘛，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我想我們會朝這個目標來做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：加碼，然後用更專業的方式去捕捉，用人道的方式來處理，我認為這是一個好的方法，我希望加大力道，然後一定要統籌，要不然你這邊抓完那邊跑，這邊抓、那邊跑，縣市間沒有統籌的話，部會間要合作，然後由農業部來加碼處理，我認為是有效的，我期盼明年至少降一半，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，了解，我們朝這個目標來做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：朝減少10萬隻的數量來努力啦，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為接下來11月說不定還會再增加，希望加快速度。"],["陳部長駿季：好，了解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我請教上次有問到的高麗菜紫色預警燈號，繼10月中旬發布紫色燈號之後，11月上旬又再次發布紫色燈號，所以照目前的處理方式，未來不補助耕鋤的部分，其實指的就是這些嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我都已經發布紅色、紫色燈號了，而你還在超種，那將來政府就不給你補助了，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為在前面黃色燈號種植的部分，大概12月初都會陸續出來了，應該影響不大，現在看起來影響比較大的，大概會在1月上旬、中旬的時候發生嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：大概就是年前的部分，過年前開始……"],["賴委員瑞隆：過年前開始，如果量過大的話，有可能……但是就不會再做……我還是希望加強宣導跟說明，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來強調，特別是我們在警示的時候育苗場……我們先想辦法控制苗量的出貨，苗量出貨農民就會種。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以其實那個應該是說，苗量超過一定以上告訴你，你這些苗將來如果你虧損，我是不補你的……"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們會更積極地從……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果在前面出的，應該那些還是要去……"],["陳部長駿季：針對前端這些育苗場出貨的部分，我想我們會想到一個方法去……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我的意思是說你們要再更細緻地去規劃出來，這個會後再給我。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：要更細緻地，就是前面的你還是會幫他負起一些責任，但是如果已經超過了，我告訴你不能再種了，你還硬要種、硬要去拼的話，那我就不負責那一塊了，政策上應該是這樣比較公平吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是，對，後續育苗場如果繼續出貨的話，我們也不給他補助，任何的育苗……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，就是要用這樣的方式，我已經警告你超量了，你還硬要再種的，這些我就不負責了，我也不補了，好不好？這樣才能建立那個公平性。"],["陳部長駿季：是，對，我們就是用那樣的方式。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我請教一下，龍虎斑輸日，這個非常好，我覺得其他的應該要持續，這是臺灣必走的一條路，龍虎斑除了輸日之外，我看到現在包括到其他國家，現在推展的狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：龍虎斑過去大部分都是銷往中國大陸，但是這幾年來，其實國內使用的部分也增加了，最主要的原因就是以前都是整隻在吃，現在很多切片的部分，所以……"],["賴委員瑞隆：那還有銷往其他國家的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：美國的部分其實也不少……"],["賴委員瑞隆：美國也在推嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：美國也在推，所以這個部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：預定什麼時候會有好消息出來？我認為這是一個很好的魚種，它有很高的營養附加價值，而且很好吃，我認為只要推得出去，應該會有很好的成果。"],["陳部長駿季：是，對，特別是我們在這個月的月底到下個月……"],["賴委員瑞隆：美國、馬來西亞、新加坡都是我們主力推動的……"],["陳部長駿季：都是我們的目標市場，都是我們的目標市場。"],["賴委員瑞隆：都是目標市場？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望很快會有一些好消息。除石斑魚之外，其實包括虱目魚，包括吳郭魚，包括鱸魚，包括午魚（午仔魚），我認為都是值得推出去的，部長同意嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：同意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：我想虱目魚的部分，因為虱目魚產銷的波動比較大，有一些光電漁電共生的部分，如果養虱目魚的話，我們會去調節它的放養量，我們希望它的放養量本身是符合相關的一個……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這幾個魚種都是很好的養殖魚種，也都有很好的競爭力，我希望都持續地推出去，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：讓漁民有更好的收益。我剛剛講的這幾個都是很好的魚種，午仔魚是大家都認為最好吃的養殖魚種嘛……"],["陳部長駿季：對，非常好吃。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我認為應該努力推出去，好不好？走向世界。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你看我們高雄的虱目魚到比利時參賽，都還得到三星，我認為就要不斷地行銷，不斷地走出去，才能達到最好的效果。"],["陳部長駿季：是。對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來最後一個我問一下，過去旗津也辦過魷魚節，鮪魚、魷魚、秋刀魚、石斑魚跟虱目魚並列為高雄5寶，魷魚過去在2015、2016年都有辦過魷魚節，部長，可不可以再來支持臺灣魷魚節固定在旗津來舉辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們一定支持，特別是一些魷魚的部分，還有鮪魚的部分，在高屏地區舉辦年度的活動，會帶領一些……"],["賴委員瑞隆：明年6月一樣是魷魚的高峰期回來的時候，能不能每年固定6月來旗津辦魷魚節，好不好？部長，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是，對，可以，我們可以，可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：可以來全力支持，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：全力支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：明年等6月一起來辦，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員，今天沒有稱讚。下一位質詢請張嘉郡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","林俊憲","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","蔡易餘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於農業部及所屬單位預算部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、\n農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00002"}}},{"id":"157016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87283bc2f9461524fd06883678c1ed2d0dd5656bc25be71a67091ed520d06e93fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:03:48 - 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這個你我都知道我想石署長他其實是為了健保的一個更好的永續所以他有一些意見那這個部分我們也會去跟他溝通包含財紀法的規定跟營業稅率的一些調整那類似這樣的想法部長 類似這樣的想法"},{"start":400.25,"end":410.419,"text":"院理包括中太院長或者是高層的更高層長有沒有去做過溝通?有沒有曾經做過溝通?院長有沒有關心過類似這樣的事情?因為健保的錢財務狀況當然也非常的辛苦所以有沒有做過類似的溝通?"},{"start":427.672,"end":447.646,"text":"這個部分因為涉及到健保署的業務跟衛福部的業務而我們沒有去參與這樣的會議這樣子所以院裡面都沒有人跟你做過溝通這件事情沒有純粹是衛福部內部的想法我想我們會跟衛福部這邊再做一次溝通對"},{"start":449.062,"end":449.242,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":465.165,"end":465.345,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":485.862,"end":486.002,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":501.421,"end":522.932,"text":"因為時間有限我要問一下有關於課稅的制度要怎麼去做調整部長現在所有的民間包括跟稅務制度相關的一些議題就是說很多民眾他仍舊願意花很多的時間跟成本去進行有關於課稅的一些稅務的訴訟你知道原因是為什麼嗎"},{"start":524.761,"end":540.91,"text":"因為但是行政訴訟的案件有一半都是稅務的案件那其實稅務的案件它的勝訴率其實非常的低但是民眾仍舊願意花時間成本去做稅務的訴訟你知道原因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":543.573,"end":568.825,"text":"民眾申請提出這個訴訟是民眾的一個權益他們可以提出來了對但是他的救濟的途徑也很多但是民眾覺得有一些在法律的制定的過程當中其實很多民眾他的目的不是要逃稅他覺得他的目的可能有很多不同的原因但是稅務法規非常多多如牛毛所以很多情況"},{"start":570.026,"end":593.861,"text":"很多時候他們也不知道哪些是必須要申報的或者是有時候他們收到了罰單之後才知道說這個應該要罰稅但是他也願意補繳我也關注到就是說在行政法裡面行政法院裡面他們也提到就是說好幾個案例他也提到就是說包括稅政機關對於具體的個案他也提醒你們說必須有一些你看到有一些是這個財閥有一些是違章情形叫輕者"},{"start":598.704,"end":601.73,"text":"其實你們有一些裁量空間可以去處理"},{"start":604.396,"end":631.028,"text":"但是你們這樣子第4條裡面你們很少去用到這樣子的法規就是說其實行政法院也要提醒你們有好幾個案例就是考量納稅人的行為嚴重程度還有背後可能有不同的原因不能只看漏報後面如果有補繳那後面就讓他補繳但是後面有裁罰有一些裁罰事實上要看他的狀況來去做調整否則的話你們就是行政怠惰"},{"start":632.949,"end":643.385,"text":"我覺得第4條是可以適用但是有時候我開協調會他們有時候是不知道要繳但他們願意繳逃漏的部分但是你們是加倍加重的懲處"},{"start":645.692,"end":668.322,"text":"我覺得政府的目的不是要透過罰款來賺錢是要提醒是 謝謝委員我想剛剛委員提到就是說行政訴訟的部分因為現在我們就有設置納保官所以民眾如果對於這個稅務案件如果有需要申訴跟說明他透過納保官來做處理但是有一些裁量的空間你較輕較重第4條也就是說對於這個"},{"start":673.224,"end":700.247,"text":"財量的部分因為有一個第4點的部分可以有一個財量加重或者更為減輕這個部分其實目前來說也都有做包含有像在111年大概有適用的有到4天部長你們好幾個案例你們都敗訴行政法院派你們就是說你們應該去朝向去朝向去考量個人的狀況所以你有一些財量權好不好我提醒你這第4條還是要用謝謝委員的提醒謝謝"},{"start":701.69,"end":703.203,"text":"謝謝燕秀委員接著我們請羅明財委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時3分）感謝召委，可不可以請部長還有賦稅署署長？"],["主席：莊部長、宋署長。"],["李委員彥秀：還有國有財產署。"],["主席：曾署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長好。媒體和很多國人都非常關心稅務規劃的議題，我想請問一下部長，當然新聞上我有看到，有關於遺產稅跟贈與稅後續的級距，因為上一次我們修正是2017年，其實這幾年大家都知道物價指數調整得非常非常多，在這一塊，雖然部分新聞我已經看到，包括消費者的物價指數比上一次我們調整的時候，其實差距已經累積高達10%以上了，雖然我有看到部分的媒體有一些報導的數字，但是已經10月底了，我要請問一下部長，到底我們什麼時候會公布完整的級距跟數字？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於課稅級距金額CPI的上漲程度超過10%了……"],["李委員彥秀：對，早就應該調了嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：達到12.42%，所以我們在今年年底以前，就會公告明年所適用的課稅級距的金額，應該就在這個月……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，有沒有可能再提早一點？因為我已經看到媒體部分的資訊了，我的意思是說因為你到年底才公布，人家來不及去做明年的稅務規劃，要做贈與的話就來不及去規劃，我已經看到媒體部分……所以有沒有可能再提前？因為現在已經11月了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們在1個月以內就來做公告好嗎？謝謝委員。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝部長，包括不計入遺產總額、扣除額這些，其實現在物價真的調得非常多，所以我覺得有機會，當然這是兩件不同的事情。部長，你了解我的意思，我覺得要苦民所苦，應該再一次去檢視這些到底有沒有討論調整的可能跟空間，這一塊我們是不是可以一併做討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前是法律規定要累計超過10%才會去做調整，上一次在112年還有113年也都做過調整了。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，但這幾年……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為每一個項目調整的時間不同，所以要去看它累計的CPI……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道你們有一定的標準，但是現在時空、環境、物價，這幾年大家面臨的挑戰又不一樣，所以我在想說這一塊，我覺得你們當然有一定的調整時間點跟級距達到，但是我覺得整個都要憑現在的大環境、時空，再去做進一步的考量，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝部長。部長，接下來有一個議題……我先把國有財產署問完，署長，因為國有財產署閒置的土地非常非常的多，我在地方常常在辦會勘，譬如說颱風天如果是私人土地，山坡地樹倒下來不小心打到人，所有權人有責任要去做賠償，對不對？"],["曾署長國基：是。"],["李委員彥秀：你的土地也不少，樹長得也很多，我常常颱風前要去會勘，地方政府說這個是中央的，沒有錢來做處理，所以我覺得無論是現在國有財產署閒置的土地要不要去做活用，或要不要去做什麼樣的管理，或者是野草長得亂七八糟的，我覺得都要有足夠的經費，然後要有人去做巡視跟檢視，否則閒置的土地你乾脆就看地方要不要用、怎麼樣去做活用，跟全國各縣市有一個更好的計畫來去做進行，署長，你清楚我的意思，因為今天議題很多，我就不要占用這個時間，我是做這樣子的提醒。"],["曾署長國基：我簡單跟委員報告，第一個，就是剛剛講的，如果可以跟地方政府，像村里長可以做認養、綠美化的部分，我們都有機制。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得你的誘因要夠。"],["曾署長國基：第二個就是……"],["李委員彥秀：你給里長多一個這樣的……譬如說停車，假設停車是大家的需求……"],["曾署長國基：對，可以做停車場或者是小公園。"],["李委員彥秀：或者種樹、種什麼是大家的需求，我覺得你應該多一點彈性，給地方更多的誘因去做處理。"],["曾署長國基：有，我們都有相關的機制。"],["李委員彥秀：否則我覺得這一次樹倒下來，國產署的土地也不少。"],["曾署長國基：也跟委員報告，我們也知道委員剛剛說的情形，所以從去年開始，我們寫了一個中長程計畫，就是整個環境的清理，所以這一次颱風完之後……"],["李委員彥秀：環境的清理，然後預算，你要有一點錢去處理……"],["曾署長國基：有、有、有……"],["李委員彥秀：不然現在地方也沒什麼經費，六都可能還好，其實各縣市很辛苦，所以你這個經費一定要編得足夠，好，我就不浪費時間……"],["曾署長國基：謝謝委員的支持，也希望委員支持預算，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我就做這樣的提醒，這一次我主決議裡面一定會提，部長，你清楚我的意思，我覺得這個是有必要做，否則颱風來，樹打到人……我前面去會勘，地方都跟我講沒錢，這是中央的事情，然後地方經費又不足，所以我提醒這個部分。","第二個，部長，我要請問一下，最近健保署……當然我們健保的費用其實很多都要撥補，台電也要跟你要錢、營業稅也要要錢，健保署提了一個構想，未來的營業稅、消費稅可不可以做財源性的撥補，你的看法到底是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，營業稅目前基本的稅率就是5%，是法定稅率……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，但是健保署提出來這樣的建議，可以有固定的比例來做健保的支援，你的看法是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：營業稅的調整涉及到有關實質租稅的負擔，然後物價水準、經濟發展……"],["李委員彥秀：我清楚，部長，我時間很少，你直接說你的看法是同意還是不同意、支持還是不支持？"],["莊部長翠雲：另外，也要跟委員報告，在財政紀律法裡面有規定，財政紀律法……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，對，我知道，當然財政紀律法要統收、統支，然後不得增加比例，也不得成立基金的專款專用……"],["莊部長翠雲：做比率的保障等等都不行。"],["李委員彥秀：對，這個你我都知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想石署長，他其實是為了健保一個更好的永續，所以有一些意見，這個部分我們也會去跟他溝通，包含財紀法的規定，跟營業稅率的一些調整來通盤考量。"],["李委員彥秀：是，部長，類似這樣的想法，院裡包括卓榮泰院長或者更高層，有沒有去做過溝通？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們會先……"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有曾經做過溝通？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會先跟健保署再去溝通，告訴它財紀法的相關規定以及營業稅稅率這些規定……"],["李委員彥秀：那院長有沒有關心過類似這樣的事情，因為健保的錢、財務狀況，當然也非常的辛苦，有沒有做過類似的溝通？否則健保署怎麼會提出這樣的想法？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分因為涉及到健保署跟衛福部的業務，我們沒有去參與這樣的會議。"],["李委員彥秀：所以院裡面都沒有人跟你做過溝通，就這件事情，沒有？純粹是衛福部內部的想法？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想我們會跟衛福部再做一次溝通。"],["李委員彥秀：那你贊不贊成？你不支持嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，這個部分要整體的考量，而且有財紀法的相關規定。"],["李委員彥秀：整體作為，所以你沒有排除，但是部長我也要提醒……"],["莊部長翠雲：我不是剛剛有跟您報告，因為營業稅的調整涉及到的層面很廣，所以要審慎評估。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，這我知道，但是譬如說在金融營業基金，他們當時也提到可不可以不要調降，剩下來的錢把它納入信保基金，你也說不適合，因為這個是屬於統收統支，而且也不能成立專款專用的部分，你也提出這樣拒絕的形式。所以我也要提醒你，要怎麼去處理我們現在整個統收統支狀況，未來要怎麼活用，其實有一定的處理原則跟方式，因此要怎麼處理，我要提醒這個還是要注意。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員彥秀：然後，另外最後一點，因為時間有限，我要問一下，有關於課稅的制度要怎麼去做調整？部長，現在所有民間，包括跟稅務制度相關的一些議題，很多民眾他仍舊願意花很多的時間跟成本，去進行有關於課稅的一些稅務訴訟，你知道原因是為什麼嗎？行政訴訟的案件有一半都是稅務的案件，其實稅務案件它的勝訴率非常低，民眾仍舊願意花時間成本去做稅務的訴訟，你知道原因是什麼嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：提出訴訟是民眾的權益，他們可以提出來。"],["李委員彥秀：對，他救濟的途徑也很多，但是民眾覺得有一些在法律制定的過程當中，其實民眾的目的很多不是要逃稅，他的目的可能有很多不同的原因，但是稅務法規非常多、多如牛毛，所以很多情況、很多時候他們也不知道哪些是必須要申報的，或者是有時候他們收到了罰單之後才知道說這個應該要罰，但是他也願意補繳。我也關注到在行政法院裡面，他們也提到好幾個案例，包括稅捐稽徵機關對於具體的個案，它也提醒你們必須……你看有一些是裁罰，有一些是違章情形較輕者，其實你們有一些裁量空間可以去處理。但是你們第四點裡面，你們很少去用到這樣子的法規，其實行政法院也要提醒你們有好幾個案例，就是考量納稅人行為的嚴重程度，還有背後可能有不同的原因，不能只看漏報，後面如果有補繳就讓他補繳，但是後面有一些裁罰，是不是要看他的狀況去做調整？否則你們就是行政怠惰。部長你瞭解我意思嗎？我覺得第四點是可以適用，有時候我開協調會，他們有時候是不知道要繳，可是他們願意繳逃漏的部分，你們卻是加倍加重的懲處，我覺得政府的目的不是要透過罰款來賺錢，是要提醒。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員，我想剛剛委員提到行政訴訟的部分，因為現在我們已經有設置納保官，所以民眾對於稅務案件，如果有需要申訴跟說明，可以透過納保官來做處理，所以這個部分案件已經有所減少。"],["李委員彥秀：但是有一些裁量的空間，你較輕、較重，第四點……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，也就是對於裁量，因為第四點有一個可以裁量加重或者更為減輕這個部分，其實目前也都有做，包含像在111年，大概適用的有到三千多件……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你們好幾個案例都敗訴，行政法院判你們應該朝向考量個人的狀況……"],["莊部長翠雲：當然……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你有一些裁量權，好不好？我提醒你第四點還是要用。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝彥秀委員，接著我們請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1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有啦 有一家非常大型的國際然後棄屍計畫裡頭你也剛因為袁昆文也問我只是簡單的在說金門市作為邊境這個棄屍計畫你們這個神城市AI這個棄屍計畫裡頭的這個可能在金門地區也要特別注意這個部分可能也要加強到時候在我們金門地區邊境避免這個毒品進入金門的這個部分不過這個當然"},{"start":668.797,"end":669.318,"text":"我自己宣告我自己"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時52分）謝謝。主席，我們先請部長，然後等一下是賦稅署跟關務署。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，剛剛李坤城委員說國民黨的財劃法鬧雙胞，我在這裡鄭重說明一下，因為我是國民黨黨團在財委會的召集委員，國民黨財劃法沒有鬧雙胞，就只有我們通過的那個版本，在這中間，當然國民黨有智庫，智庫提供了很多不同版本的試算給我們參考，我們都有拿來看，但後來決定選用的版本就是上上禮拜通過的那個版本，不過，我不知道你們現在是不是還不打算提出行政院的版本，就是財政部這邊的院版？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，剛剛講的財劃法修正，是一個非常重大的事情，我們認為要審慎規劃。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但上會期我們已經說要給你們3個月研究，然後你剛剛也說沒錯，事權要改變，所以如果你們一直不提出來，之後可能就變成立法院財政委員會帶領著行政院前進，我們往前走，把蛋糕切好以後，然後其他事權要改變的部分，各部會就要趕快跟上，當然也包括內政部及其他部會的事權要跟上，劃分就要跟上嘛！等於變成是立法院帶領著行政院前進。上次我們6月決議是到9月，現在都11月了，你們跟地方溝通到現在，還是沒有辦法拿出你們的版本嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們跟地方討論的時候，是先就水平分配的指標部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：在討論，就如同委員也知道，原來要……"],["陳委員玉珍：要每個縣市全部都同意是不可能的，你們就是要有……"],["莊部長翠雲：也要縮小歧見，而且要凝聚最大的共識……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，上次不是說已經只剩下幾項嗎？只剩下一、兩樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有三個指標的部分還有一些爭議。其實更重要的是後面的權重跟調整係數，也需要審慎的再做進一步的討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係啦！反正我們尊重嘛！因為這是你們的權力，要放棄這個權力，我們也尊重你們，反正立法是立法院應該做的事情、權責。","另外，我今天要請教的問題，是有關金門縣政府之前提的綜合規劃，希望把金門打造成精緻購物免稅島，這是金門縣的願景，這個在民國99年時，當時的縣長就提了，希望達成全島免稅，初期當然是市區免稅，這是短期目標，就是市區有一間一間的免稅店；中程我們希望有購物商圈，並希望中央給我們更多財稅、簽證、兩岸交流、金融等相關待遇，落實全島免稅，這在民國99年就提出來了，而且是行政院核定的綜合計畫。那時候的規劃是希望金門全島以境內關外方向推動三免二退，所謂三免是免徵關稅、貨物稅、營業稅；二退是指菸酒稅及菸品健康福利捐出境時限量退稅。離島建設條例第十條也有規定，澎湖、金門、馬祖、綠島、蘭嶼及琉球地區之營業人，於當地銷售並交付使用之貨物或於當地提供之勞務，免徵營業稅；還有這些地方免徵的辦法，由財政部定之。但是因為金門地區90%的貨物都是從臺灣島進口，除了運費，進口貨物課徵的5%營業稅因進項無法扣抵，變成直接轉嫁到消費者身上，所以事實上民眾、百姓、終端消費者是感受不到免營業稅的優惠。我們算了一下，如果離島三個縣市實行三免稅，稅損影響是很少的，以金門縣為例，大概一年是3億元，這個問題我也和賦稅署署長溝通過很多次，希望營業稅稅率變成零，其實稅損是很少的，影響只有3億元，如果再按照現在我們要通過的財劃法，事實上，營業稅很大部分是歸地方，所以最後這個稅損也是地方政府，不會影響到中央政府，而金門也只有3億元。你們那時候說會影響租稅公平性、不利在地競爭力等等，但就像我剛剛說的，按照財劃法規定，如果通過以後，事實上對中央的稅損是沒有影響的，所以是不是配合在法令上作相關修正？因為考慮到離島的一些地理條件，你看世界各國對離島都有一些特別的國土發展計畫，這個部分是不是也應該適度做一些政策的調整？不然90%都從臺灣進口，商家並沒有真正享受到優惠。這個問題金門商家反映很多年了，他們沒有辦法真正享受到免徵營業稅的優惠，這樣也就沒有辦法真正照顧到離島地區的消費者。賦稅署署長，對於這個議題，我應該跟你討論過很多次了吧？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，我們也跟你特別報告過，以現在這個條例規定，金門離島地區的有效稅率，所謂有效稅率就是真正我們去除它的銷售來看，其實大概只有1%左右，簡單講，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：這樣跟我說的零稅率相較的話，稅損就更少了，對不對？現在以5%計算是3億，如果只有1%，那只有五分之一，一年稅損也才6,000萬，那就更少了啦！對中央影響太小了。"],["宋署長秀玲：是，跟委員報告，其實我們考慮租稅政策，有時候不是單純從稅收損失的角度……"],["陳委員玉珍：稅損的金額啦！我知道。"],["宋署長秀玲：稅損當然是我們考慮的因素……"],["陳委員玉珍：很小啦！很小。"],["宋署長秀玲：對，因為也有所謂制度上的因素，譬如我在每一個環節……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，但是因為我們是一個島嘛！事實上，金管會也要做一個什麼金融特區等等的，所以我們認為應該就一個金門島來考慮，我想你還是研究一下法律的部分，因為如果財劃法通過，營業稅還是地方的，到時候少收也是地方政府少收，所以在法源上，希望給地方一個依據，以後地方政府如果願意讓自己的地方可以多多發展，願意自己來承擔這些東西，也是有可能啦！以後就不會影響到中央，營業稅是臺北收的歸臺北，新竹收的歸新竹，我們金門的稅損就是我們自己承擔，變成我們自己縣政府來承擔，那這個部分影響到你們就更小了，你了解我的意思嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：我了解，但可能要看財政收支劃分法……"],["陳委員玉珍：為了促進地方發展，我們願意提供一些比較好的政策，金門縣地方政府自己也提供一些優惠的獎勵投資政策，但因為離島比較遠，有些人不大願意過去投資，所以雖然我們也有提供一些營所稅的補助等各方面的政策，但還是沒有那麼多人過去投資，所以我們希望儘量在政策上給離島一些優惠，事實上對中央的收入也沒有影響，你了解嗎？這個部分可能你回去再研究一下，因為在營業稅上，第一，影響這麼少……"],["宋署長秀玲：還是要看財政收支劃分法的修正方向。"],["陳委員玉珍：再算算也只有6,000萬，第二，影響的還都是金門縣自己的收入，不會影響到中央政府的收入，這部分你再想想在法律上要怎麼做，好不好？讓金門的地方有更多的發展。","第二個，我要問關務署，金門離島免稅商店有4家，還有免稅商店，就是大的那種免稅商店，而不是離島免稅，離島免稅是有限量的，您知道喔！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：限量，什麼東西都有限額的啦！4家。當然免稅商店開起來有增加一些就業機會啦！還有旅遊，像我昨天回金門去接待一些大陸觀光客，他們都特別喜歡到免稅商店去購物，對於金門的整個……當然很多產業還有觀光客會來嘛！到免稅店去買，對金門的幫助也很大。","但是設立離島免稅商店的條件，它的資本額要求5,000萬以上，跟全臺灣設立一般的免稅商店資格一致，當然這個店不好做，但是資本額這麼高，事實上對於金門的一般商家相對起來還是辛苦啦！所以這樣變成是財團才有能力去做，我們要推的是整個金門都變成這樣一個區，所以您看看這個部分的話，是不是還需要再去檢討相關法規，對於離島免稅的部分是不是給予比較寬鬆的條件？你了解我在說什麼嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：是，了解委員的意思。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是比較寬鬆一點，不要說只有財團才能做這樣的生意啦！可以嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：好，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：去研究一下看有沒有什麼好方法，在政策上面有沒有什麼可以幫助金門地方更多的？因為這是你們關務署這邊比較重要可以推行的。"],["彭署長英偉：好，我們研議一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：來研議看看。還有，剛剛也有委員問到數位海關的再造計畫，那個部分六千多萬，很奇怪，你們核定版的計畫裡頭，你們需要的錢是2億6,500萬嘛！但是你們的預算編列是2億5,000萬，有看到嗎？你們的核定版……"],["彭署長英偉：了解。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛？"],["彭署長英偉：對，我們預估明年大概是2億6……"],["陳委員玉珍：總共要兩億六千五百多萬，但是114年只有編列2億5，是核定的寫得太高，還是你們錢不夠啊？還是你們不需要？什麼原因？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，因為我們行政院的科技計畫，它是整個總數額的啦！當然各部會都有提出申請，2億5大概就是院裡面評估之後，從整個經費裡面……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你114年到118年整個就沒辦法了？"],["彭署長英偉：明年如果我們沒有辦法編列在這裡面的話，我們會往後，其他的115或116來編這些……"],["陳委員玉珍：還有，你要注意一點，你們在113年4月依據政府採購法第三十四條第一項規定，徵求廠商一些意見，但沒有廠商提出來。我在想到底是完全做得太好了，沒有廠商可以提出任何改正的意見，或者是廠商不敢表達意見？這個可能要思考一下。"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，還是有廠商來跟我們提供需求的意見……"],["陳委員玉珍：也有提供意見喔？"],["彭署長英偉：有，有一家非常大型的國際……"],["陳委員玉珍：然後緝私計畫裡頭，因為剛剛顏寬恒委員有問了，我只是簡單的再說，金門是作為邊境嘛！你們生成式AI緝私計畫裡頭，可能在金門地區也要特別注意，這個部分可能也要加強，到時候在我們金門地區邊境……"],["彭署長英偉：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員玉珍：避免毒品進入金門的這個部分。"],["彭署長英偉：好，沒問題，應該要做。"],["陳委員玉珍：當然我知道料羅港、貨物港也是要做，來避免毒品進入金門去危害金門，好，謝謝。"],["彭署長英偉：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，陳玉珍委員的質詢結束。","接下來楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍）：接下來請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"157014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e8730fef07fb8bf739edc7cef15d9be6ba6d5656bc25be71a67e2ce94d99c1cf0755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱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11:15:59","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於農業部及所屬單位預算部分。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-18","start_time":"2024-11-18T11:07:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-18T11:15:59+08:00","duration":517,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.341593750000001,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.04971875,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.77096875,"end":17.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.56409375,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.74409375,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.96346875,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.34221875,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.23159375,"end":40.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.91909375,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.64409375,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.50471875,"end":48.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.47471875,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":57.861593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.82346875,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.61909375,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.47096875,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.84596875000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.03784375000001,"end":99.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.49221875,"end":108.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.67721875000001,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.68971875000001,"end":105.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.19534375,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.38909375,"end":111.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.43971875000001,"end":111.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.47346875000001,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.54096875,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.57471875,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.59159375,"end":111.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.96284375,"end":121.32846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.85221875,"end":118.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.32846875000001,"end":121.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.98659375000001,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.02034375000001,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.69096875000001,"end":124.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.59784375000001,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.57596875000002,"end":133.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.96784375000001,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.95909375000002,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.32159375,"end":139.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.16471875000002,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.03096875,"end":182.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.42034375,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.16221875000002,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.33846875,"end":193.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.02596875,"end":206.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.31096875,"end":218.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.71034375000002,"end":215.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.84909375,"end":219.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.28346875000003,"end":222.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.78096875000003,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":234.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.27284375000002,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.84659375,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.88034375,"end":245.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.60846875000001,"end":249.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.61221875,"end":249.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.13096875000002,"end":251.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.16471875000002,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.57784375000003,"end":270.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.59471875000003,"end":254.38784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.96159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百億美金喔那個3.7 billion應該是37那現在從美國進口值你未來可能會增加到未來一年可能會增加到多少這個我們還我們現在還在還在做精算品價會不會增加"},{"start":122.062,"end":127.265,"text":"農業特別收入基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":145.576,"end":162.37,"text":"從中國這個出口值的佔比逐年是降低目前大概是10%左右出口值也大概到5億多嘛大概5億左右5億多未來有沒有可能繼續再調降因為在中國生產出口到中國的確是有很大的風險嘛"},{"start":163.211,"end":191.886,"text":"是,我想中國市場當然我們不會放棄但是中國市場以外的高端市場是我們積極努力的一個目標啦那以過去三年,應該四年之間我們消亡中國以外的市場其實從38億美元變成43億美元分散市場我要講的是你從中國的佔比是從20降到10對不對,這很明顯但是到日本的出口值卻沒有明顯增加去美國的出口值也沒有明顯增加"},{"start":192.446,"end":217.885,"text":"所以你要分散東協市場那增加幅度不高啦沒有 我們是分散所以每一個國家增加的幅度加起來我剛才說的已經比過去109年38億現在變成43億了足足增加了5億但是 overall 來看啦你們整體出口市場是衰退的狀況並沒有並沒有在網上在這個大幅度的提升我希望要拿出積極的作為把這個出口市場能夠大躍進大成長"},{"start":220.347,"end":225.59,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":251.195,"end":269.826,"text":"因為農股辦現在目前還在算,因為農股辦現在才能夠做好。現在還剛開放,我希望你能把這個運費補貼啊,把它趕快算出來,讓這個漁民知道,他們輸入往日本可以有多少量,那可以多少補貼。同樣的其他的這個漁產品,其他市場的補貼你們這個我覺得也要足以增加啦。"},{"start":271.347,"end":296.298,"text":"另外,養殖漁業振興二期計畫,這個我去看過好多次了,我想王署長也知道,現在這個部分,我們在永安是石斑魚生產基地,目前永安LNG的海水管線供水面積只有450公頃,那你這些計畫裡面,第二期的計畫能不能優先把永安做的第二期計畫推動要點,推動地點。"},{"start":299.183,"end":327.193,"text":"對,我想我們之前也討論過就是永安那邊的那個海水供應系統我們會列為一個優先但是也會再跟高雄市政府這邊來討論現在最大的問題在哪裡?現在最大問題在哪裡?跟委員報告齁現在LNG廠因為往後延伸會那個要加壓的問題來跟高雄市政府來討論積極好不好趕快把第二期的這個落實到永安因為還有大概750公頃還沒有列入這個範圍嗎?"},{"start":328.877,"end":355.376,"text":"是 那後續我們跟高雄市政委來討論來往後延伸的問題第三個問題想討論這個我們農地的生產如果以農戶來看廣義的農家跟主力農家他的所得有差距然後這個主力農家是大概目前有21.2萬戶但是這個只佔總體農家的不到三成但是他的收入高達七成五"},{"start":356.237,"end":356.617,"text":"農地租賃的專法或配套措施?"},{"start":383.022,"end":398.413,"text":"我想現在目前農業的租賃的部分最大的一個問題就是口頭約的部分那口頭約的部分最主要也是375減租的一個陰影所以我們現在建立了這個租賃的一個平台但是其實我們也檢討這些租賃平台效果並不是那麼好"},{"start":399.293,"end":412.308,"text":"所以我們看看說有沒有什麼樣的方式就是透過我們後端的政策的政策的這些補貼的時候去採實名制的部分然後讓這些...您知道問題要提出更有效解決問題的方法嘛你希望公請"},{"start":415.151,"end":430.682,"text":"非營業部分：農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及農民退休基金及"},{"start":444.951,"end":453.694,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分．非營業部分．非農田水利事業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利"},{"start":467.559,"end":468.28,"text":"你那個農損的部分"},{"start":492.543,"end":512.177,"text":"我們每年讓天災這個極端氣候從2021到2023啦你們救助比例大概就是每年天災農損的大概三成左右不到三成你是有一定的比例嗎我們現在目前救助是用他災損的百分之二十以上我時間到齁那你這個我這個問題再用書面回答給我好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":585,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時7分）謝謝，陳超明委員當主席是非常地公正、非常地客觀，令人敬佩，謝謝主席，有請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，我第一個問題請教，川普上來之後，央行楊金龍總裁對於川普執政之後可能會產生的國際經貿變局，他提出建議，希望能夠加強、加大對美國的採購，這是央行總裁的具體建議。目前從美國進口到國內的農漁產品有哪些項目？大概金額是多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，跟美國比較大宗的採購，就是飼料的玉米跟大豆，這個部分我們每年或是每隔年的時候就會組一個團，那個團……"],["邱委員志偉：你說是飼料跟大豆？"],["陳部長駿季：對，飼料的玉米……"],["邱委員志偉：未來有沒有可能增加稻米呢？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，因為那要採購……"],["邱委員志偉：我說央行總裁的這個建議有沒有下達到農業部？農業部有沒有擬定相關的因應方案，會加強對美國農漁產品的採購？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們對農漁產品的採購，基本上如我剛才說的，是以國內所缺的，飼料的玉米跟大豆。"],["邱委員志偉：未來會增加哪些品項？"],["陳部長駿季：大概就是玉米的力道會加強，那個是他們現在……"],["邱委員志偉：玉米跟飼料？"],["陳部長駿季：玉米飼料，每年應該是3.7百億美金，3.7 billion，應該是……"],["邱委員志偉：從美國進口值，未來一年可能會增加到多少？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們現在還在精算。"],["邱委員志偉：品項會不會增加？"],["陳部長駿季：品項也會增加，特別是……"],["邱委員志偉：這個可能要先讓國內了解。"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是……"],["邱委員志偉：因為進口如果擴大的話，會影響到農產品的供需喔！"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們一定不會為了雙邊的友好……"],["邱委員志偉：臺美利益很重要，但是不能損及我們農民的利益。"],["陳部長駿季：對，一定不會損及我們國內農民的利益。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，我們從中國出口值的占比來看，逐年是降低的，目前大概是10%左右。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：出口值也大概到五億多嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：大概五億左右。"],["邱委員志偉：五億多，未來有沒有可能繼續再調降？因為出口到中國的確是有很大的風險。"],["陳部長駿季：中國市場當然我們不會放棄，但是中國市場以外的高端市場是我們積極努力的一個目標。過去4年間，我們銷往中國以外市場的部分，其實從38億美元變成43億美元……"],["邱委員志偉：分散市場，我要講的是，中國的占比是從20%降到10%，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這很明顯，但是到日本的出口值卻沒有明顯增加，去美國的出口值也沒有明顯增加，所以你要分散東協市場……"],["陳部長駿季：都有增加。"],["邱委員志偉：增加的幅度不高啦！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們是分散，所以每一個國家增加的幅度加起來，我剛才說的，過去109年是38億，現在變成43億了，足足增加了5億。"],["邱委員志偉：那是overall來看啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你們整體出口市場是衰退的狀況，並沒有再往上、再接著大幅度的提升，我希望你們要拿出積極的作為，讓這個出口市場能夠大躍進、大成長。另外我們的石斑魚過去是外銷到中國，現在慢慢地移轉，變成可以銷日嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：甚至到馬來西亞、美國的超市都可以，你現在的運費補貼有沒有增加？"],["陳部長駿季：我們運費補貼現在正在算，希望在這一段時間，特別是在龍虎斑的部分，會有加碼的效果。"],["邱委員志偉：到日本的運費補貼，你們現在是多少錢？現在剛開放龍虎斑出口到……"],["陳部長駿季：龍虎斑目前還在算，因為龍虎斑現在才能夠出口。"],["邱委員志偉：現在才剛開放，我希望你要趕快把這個運費補貼算出來。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會儘速公布。"],["邱委員志偉：讓漁民知道他們輸往日本可以有多少量，可以有多少補貼。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，是。"],["邱委員志偉：同樣的，其他的漁產品、其他市場的補貼，我覺得你們也要注意增加啦！"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["邱委員志偉：好，另外，養殖漁業振興二期計畫，這個我去看過好多次了，我想王署長也知道，永安是石斑魚的主要生產基地，目前永安LNG的海水管線供水面積只有450公頃，對不對？你這些計畫裡面，能不能優先把永安做為第二期計畫的推動地點？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們之前也討論過，就是永安那邊的海水供應系統我們會列為優先，但是也會再跟高雄市政府這邊來討論。"],["邱委員志偉：現在最大的問題在哪裡？"],["王代理署長正芳：跟委員報告，現在LNG廠因為往後延伸，會就要加壓的問題來跟高雄市政府討論要怎麼處理。"],["邱委員志偉：積極好不好？趕快把第二期的落實到永安，因為還有大概750公頃還沒有列入這個範圍，好嗎？"],["王代理署長正芳：是，後續我們會跟高雄市政府來討論往後延伸的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：第三個問題想討論我們農地的生產，如果以農戶來看，廣義的農家跟主力農家的所得有差距，然後主力農家目前大概有21.2萬戶，只占總體農家的不到三成，但是它的收入卻高達七成五，這部分如果生產規模越大，它的獲利能力越強，這個沒有問題嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這種情況之下，我們現在農地租賃的主要依據是民法、耕地第三七五減租這些相關的規範，又面對到農業勞動力老化跟規模化經營的需求，農業部針對這個問題，有沒有規劃要制定更完善農地租賃的專法或者配套措施？"],["陳部長駿季：我想目前農業租賃的部分，最大的一個問題就是口頭約的部分，口頭約的部分最主要也是三七五減租的一個陰影，所以我們現在建立了租賃的平臺，但是其實我們也有檢討，這些租賃平臺的效果並不是那麼好。"],["邱委員志偉：對，效果不好。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們看看有沒有什麼樣的方式，就是透過我們做後端政策的這些補貼時去採實名制，然後讓這些地主……"],["邱委員志偉：所以您知道問題，要提出更有效的解決問題方法嘛！7萬公頃是老農所持有，但是沒有辦法提高生產力，你要讓它活化，提高生產力嘛，所以這部分你要有足夠的誘因，讓65歲以上的老農能夠願意將這7萬公頃的農地轉租給年輕或者專業的農民。"],["陳部長駿季：是，初步就是，我們現在對地給付，未來可能會直接給地主，然後地主如果把土地轉租出來的時候，我們會給他另外一筆獎金，用這種方式來加速年紀大長者的地能夠釋放出來。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這部分我想農業部再加油！"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["邱委員志偉：上次質詢您提到興達港情人碼頭，雖然是二類漁港，但是它整個漁港的規劃，包括遊戲設施、相關的活化，我希望不要一次把二類漁港定位成市政府的，你們就不管了，所以這部分我希望漁業署也要編列相關的預算，來協助市政府活化情人碼頭。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我跟委員報告，就像您說的，二類漁港雖然是縣市政府的，但是我們絕對不會放給縣市政府管，我們一定會用更積極的態度跟它合作，甚至編列一些經費來協助他們，特別是……漁港也是這樣子。"],["邱委員志偉：你那個農損的部分，我們每年天災、極端氣候，從2021到2023年你們救助的比例大概就是每年天災農損的三成左右，不到三成，你是有一定的比例嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們目前救助是用它災損的20%以上，我們才……"],["邱委員志偉：我時間到了，這個問題再用書面回答我，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我代理主席，部長，讓我再講一下。我看到永安漁港將近百億，我們龍鳳漁港的部分，我跟你要的只有3億、5億，很困難？你這個部分要再幫忙一下，常常請我來代理啦，謝謝。"],["主席（邱委員志偉）：部長，剛剛陳代理主席講的，請農業部多加重視。好，謝謝陳超明委員。","下一位質詢委員請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","林俊憲","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","蔡易餘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於農業部及所屬單位預算部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、\n農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00002"}}},{"id":"157013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157013","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e870646df302cf72296fa9b21d42de11d19d5656bc25be71a673b970c124de97d675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:57:33 - 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麻煩請國安局還有訴發部還有警政署委員長好早"},{"start":22.407,"end":45.915,"text":"副局長我想請教一下就是在目前因為我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片、錯假訊息等等其實我們從最近不管是國內外的政治也好或者很多的樣態其實大概這個部分被運用的越來越多然後可能也越來越真假難辨"},{"start":47.995,"end":76.633,"text":"我們像上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份的國安備忘錄他要求包括五角大廈還有情報體系要強化運用AI的技術確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢所謂對手大概很大的一部分大概就是中國大陸就這個部分因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速AI也好量子技術也好"},{"start":77.981,"end":94.133,"text":"不過美國同時也明確的禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控相對的其實任何國家要"},{"start":95.354,"end":97.295,"text":"政府跟國安部門有沒有類似向美國白宮發表的這樣子國安備忘錄規範政府使用AI技術的框架?目前有沒有?"},{"start":116.143,"end":135.631,"text":"跟委員報告因為AI的進步太快所以它延伸的便利同時也會帶來很多的威脅所以剛委員提到美國除了美國以外歐盟他也在今年提出了人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣的"},{"start":137.782,"end":157.393,"text":"我們要知道的是我們有沒有我們國家目前是有國科會他有在草擬一個人工智慧的一個基本法那這個部分已經我們政府機關已經討論了很多次應該年底前應該會交互行政院來做討論"},{"start":160.154,"end":175.837,"text":"本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的一個討論也提供相關的意見那這個目的是兼顧鼓勵創新還有兼顧人民的權益委員剛剛考量了在人工智慧基本法案裡面"},{"start":176.798,"end":180.541,"text":"對基本法因為我想那個本來就是基本的就是說就像美國歐盟"},{"start":196.352,"end":196.953,"text":"現在進度,簡單說明就好。進度就好。"},{"start":221.588,"end":237.222,"text":"報告委員那個進度的部分我們已經送到行政院了所以行政院這邊會再做跨部會整體的一個討論所以目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分嗎對不對不是是AI基本法基本法對"},{"start":238.103,"end":241.264,"text":"報告委員,它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的整體政策的方針,那主要是先規範政府的一些相關的施政"},{"start":258.928,"end":264.712,"text":"對,因為你現在只有對政府嘛可是現在它日新月異然後它技術不斷地在進步的當下我們到年底才可以出來可是你到年底之前你推出的還只是政府的部分我們剛剛提到的你包括像工商界包括科技界包括很多運用在人民的身上因為現在大家看到的而且最在乎的除了剛剛這些以外因為像我們的報告都集中在對應"},{"start":287.687,"end":294.711,"text":"向境外組織還有科技的運用可是資安的錯假訊息他人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案那目前為止像包括美國股神巴菲特他在5月份對股東股東會對人工智慧也發出警語他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐那社群媒體他所"},{"start":314,"end":314.08,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":333.513,"end":334.534,"text":"警政署我們目前對於詐騙這樣的效果您覺得好嗎?"},{"start":363.813,"end":369.038,"text":"在努力進步的地方因為確實相關的報告我們效果不錯如果就我們說效果不錯可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件到現在2023年已經暴增到超過三萬五千件如果是今年其實它的那個成長的速度更高它甚至招詐的損失去年就是88.7億這個還是有報案的數據那有很多如果比較小額的或者大家沒有報案的其實多不勝數"},{"start":392.657,"end":395.84,"text":"所以如果說像這樣一直增加的情況之下我們還認為說我們效果不錯那不錯在哪裡他為什麼還是會一直增加然後他問題會出現在哪裡我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案在警政署上面其實我覺得可能也有很多自愛難行的地方對於基層的員警現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方去反詐騙"},{"start":417.959,"end":417.999,"text":"主席"},{"start":448.099,"end":470.795,"text":"就我們我們副局長您的分析防疫為什麼做得不錯就我們防疫來講我覺得那個我們政府在邊境的控管還有相關的一個這個機制通報機制跟應酬機制方面來講有做很多的努力"},{"start":473.044,"end":476.488,"text":"所以當那個會影響到而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌其實我們用很多的方式讓我們在防疫的作為上面其實是有效的就是在我們的整個防疫的措施上面其實是有效的那有很重要的一點其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷的在提醒民眾"},{"start":494.986,"end":498.228,"text":"說我們這個防疫應該怎麼做,你的口罩應該怎麼戴,你應該要做什麼樣什麼樣的一個預防措施或怎麼樣的防範,其實做了非常的多,其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播,我像我剛剛講的,我們所有的警察同仁他都是"},{"start":515.836,"end":515.876,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":546.637,"end":562.959,"text":"說法部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官他們認為說我們是三大戰犯之一就是說我們對於台灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防治或者說去做更有效的一個宣傳"},{"start":563.74,"end":573.885,"text":"或者在我們的技術上面沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止那訴發部像這樣子你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳我剛剛有講的防疫因為你讓每個人都知道我應該要怎麼做然後我應該什麼不能做如果你把很多的錢要拿出去出國還不如用在很多在宣傳上面這部分訴發部的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":588.433,"end":608.62,"text":"是,非常感謝那個委員,那個基本上我認為說臺灣之前在防疫之時,所以做得特別好,就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作,面對這個狀況,所謂的政府呢,包含行政部門也包含立法部門,然後在行政部門當然也要分工,然後在那個打仗"},{"start":608.66,"end":613.321,"text":"你告訴我們怎麼做就好我跟委員報告一下基本上現在的詐騙它也是一個產業鏈它的做法是這樣子就是說詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平台上它會放一個廣告把那個民眾騙到Line的視頻空間裡面"},{"start":629.386,"end":630.186,"text":"你告訴我!"},{"start":649.991,"end":654.454,"text":"你簡單的告訴我們因為你不管是前段後段現在不管哪一段反正就是都是破口啦所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛我們要知道的是政府的具體作為我剛剛已經建議如果速發部有這麼高額的預算是不是你應該提醒隨時24小時你不管從哪一個管道不管從社群網站也好或者從媒體也好或者從其他的"},{"start":678.932,"end":682.676,"text":"可以發聲的管道也好其實盡量讓人們知道說現在有什麼樣的我用什麼樣的詐騙手法我今天有什麼樣因為至少每天提醒人家就會有所警惕你今天不是啊你等到後面你要去抓要去預防什麼其實你大概目前為止你們是做不到的而且是做得不好"},{"start":699.915,"end":711.51,"text":"所以民眾才會有感而且會對政府不信任所以就這個部分速發部可以做到什麼簡單說就好了就是像你在宣傳上面你們可以配合做到什麼"},{"start":712.25,"end":726.615,"text":"我們可以做到的事情一個當然就是像委員所講的加強宣導另外我們就是利用那個網路的機制接受民眾的報案民眾的報案以後我們就趕快的去那個分報案以後通常都來不及了我講的是說那個前面廣告的部分這就是我前面講的就是分工的部分我們負責的是前端那這個地方只是偽冒"},{"start":732.737,"end":744.021,"text":"譬如說就是所謂的impersonation就是仿冒名人的這個部分然後我們就會譬如說如果有人仿冒那個謝金河的話我們就馬上去通知謝金河請他做確認確認以後我們就會把這個資料馬上傳送給LINE或者是Facebook"},{"start":748.783,"end":751.364,"text":"你沒有聽清楚我講的話如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關的金融代表性的人物或者像一些代表性今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員"},{"start":764.448,"end":771.653,"text":"就是說大家如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些你應該不斷不斷的提醒不是當你發生的時候你去告訴謝金河那已經被騙一堆啦你應該要站在更前面速發部不要添了錢然後你做的事情是都是在後端的那反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同所以在這裡今天時間的關係就這個部分我覺得對於詐騙案人民才是有感的我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外"},{"start":794.127,"end":796.829,"text":"我們無能為力我再次強調我們無能為力像這樣就被騙到緬甸或其他地方的這也都是詐騙他有不斷不斷的一直在發生而且手段越來越殘忍然後他要的金額也很多他騙去以後他大概就是索金索一些他的贖金"},{"start":815.803,"end":818.044,"text":"請國安局一定要掌握這個部分這個比其他的可能危害我們國家或人民的信心更重"},{"start":845.93,"end":846.459,"text":"謝偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局、數發部、警政署。"],["張副局長元斌：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：早。副局長，我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應，其實最近不管是國內外的政治也好，或者很多的樣態，這個部分被運用得越來越多，然後可能也越來越真假難辨。上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份國安備忘錄，要求五角大廈及情報體系要強化運用AI技術，確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢，所謂對手大概很大的一部分指的是中國大陸，因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速，不論是AI也好，量子技術也好。不過美國同時也明確禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為，也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控，相對的，其實任何國家要訂定相關規範的時候，人民的言論自由可能都是應該要保障的，對不對？我們的政府跟國安部門有沒有類似美國白宮發表的國安備忘錄，規範政府使用AI技術的框架，目前有沒有？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，因為AI的進步太快，所以它延伸了便利，同時也會帶來很多的威脅，除了剛剛委員所提到的美國以外，歐盟也在近年提出人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣在使用AI的同時，也能兼顧到它不要誤用……"],["馬委員文君：我們有沒有？我要知道的是我們有沒有。"],["張副局長元斌：我們國家目前是由國科會在草擬一個人工智慧的基本法，這個部分我們政府機關已經討論了很多次，年底前應該會交付行政院來做討論，本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的討論，也提供了相關的意見。這個目的是要兼顧鼓勵創新還有人民的權益。委員剛剛考量的，在人工智慧基本法法案裡面就有明確的要求，就是要兼顧到人民既有的人權跟機敏資訊的維護，還有不能夠濫用它，這個是在基本法就已經有匡定的。"],["馬委員文君：對，基本法，我想那個本來就是基本的，像美國、歐盟，在運用這個部分或者在訂定規範，當然不可以影響到人民，可是我現在要詢問的是，剛剛副局長有提到，有可能在年底之前就送出來嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：我們看進度大概是年底，年底會在……"],["馬委員文君：年底之前可以嗎？這是國科會做的嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：對，國科會。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以？現在的進度簡單說明就好，進度就好。"],["蔡處長妙慈：報告委員，進度的部分，我們已經送到行政院了，所以行政院這邊會再做跨部會整體的討論跟審查。"],["馬委員文君：目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分，對不對？"],["蔡處長妙慈：不是，是AI基本法。"],["馬委員文君：基本法？"],["蔡處長妙慈：對。"],["馬委員文君：它的內容是只有針對政府部門，還是包含比如工商業界還有科技界？所有的、廣泛的都有嗎？是不是對所有的對象？"],["蔡處長妙慈：報告委員，它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的這個整體政策方針，主要是先規範政府的一些相關施政。"],["馬委員文君：對，因為你現在只有對政府，可是現在它日新月異，然後在它技術不斷進步的當下，我們到年底才可以出來。可是到年底時，你推出的還只是政府的部分，我們剛剛提到的，包括像工商界、科技界，很多運用在人民的身上，因為現在大家看到，而且最在乎的，除了剛剛的這些以外，像你們的報告都集中在對應像境外組織還有科技的運用，可是資安的錯假訊息，人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案。目前為止，包括像美國股神巴菲特5月份在股東會對人工智慧也發出警語，他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐。社群媒體所開發的很多很多像這樣的AI工具，其實也都被廣泛地運用，這些部分，像深偽技術、合成的照片等等，都成為各國詐騙集團善用的工具。我想要知道，我們對於這個部分有什麼樣的作法？我先請教一下警政署，我們目前對於詐騙防制的效果，您覺得好嗎？"],["林副局長信雄：跟委員報告，目前我們在相關社群媒體，有關可能涉及詐騙的這些……"],["馬委員文君：效果好不好？"],["林副局長信雄：我們今年度已經通報相關的公司下架了十一萬多則可能涉及詐騙的廣告，所以這部分我們在跟相關公司的聯繫上效果算是不錯的。當然，還有一些還要再努力、進步的地方，因為確實相關的廣告……"],["馬委員文君：你們效果不錯？你們說效果不錯，可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件，到2023年已經暴增到超過3萬5,000件，像今年，其實它的成長速度更快，遭詐的損失，甚至在去年就達88.7億，這個還是有報案的數據，有很多如果比較小額的，或者大家沒有報案的，其實多不勝數，所以如果像這樣一直增加的情況之下，你們還認為你們效果不錯，那不錯在哪裡？它為什麼還是會一直增加？然後它的問題會出現在哪裡？我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案。在警政署上面，其實我覺得可能也有很多窒礙難行的地方，對於基層的員警，現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方去宣導反詐騙，你覺得像這樣子的效果會是好的嗎？這個部分請警政署再去考量比較有效的方式，因為我剛剛提到，我們在地方上看到大家都很辛苦，只要大大小小的活動，或者專門為了反詐騙的，你就舉個牌子，這樣會是有效的嗎？","我們再請國安局副局長好了。我請教副局長，當時在防疫的時候，我們臺灣號稱防疫做得非常不錯，原因是什麼？就副局長您的分析，防疫為什麼做得不錯？"],["張副局長元斌：就我們防疫來講，我覺得政府在邊境的控管，還有相關的通報機制跟應處機制方面，有做很多的努力。"],["馬委員文君：所以當那個會影響到民眾，而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌，其實我們用很多的方式，讓我們的防疫作為是有效的，就是在整個防疫措施上面，其實是有效的，有很重要的一點是，其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷地在提醒民眾，我們防疫應該怎麼做，你的口罩應該怎麼戴，你應該要做什麼樣的預防措施或怎麼防範，其實做得非常的多，其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播。像我剛剛講的，我們所有的警察同仁都是……我們才多少人？本來一個所才4個人，自己的工作已經都做不了了，像車禍或其他案件發生的時候，往往都是自己一個人就出去了，還要再配合這個舉牌，這個都是非常非常辛苦，對於效果來說，其實是有問題的，這個部分國安單位其實應該要去提醒。","我想要請教數發部，我們編了那麼多錢，像我剛剛提到的，數發部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官，他們認為我們是三大戰犯之一，就是我們對於臺灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防制，或者做更有效的宣傳，或者在我們的技術上面，沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止。數發部，像這樣子，你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳？像我剛剛講的防疫，因為你讓每個人都知道他應該要怎麼做，然後什麼不能做，如果你要把很多的錢拿去出國，還不如用很多在宣傳上面，這部分數發部的看法怎麼樣？"],["林次長宜敬：非常感謝委員。基本上，我認為臺灣之前在防疫之所以做得特別好，就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作面對這個狀況，所謂的政府包含行政部門，也包含立法部門，在行政部門當然也要分工，然後在打詐議題這件事情上面的話……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，不用、不用，那個我們知道，你告訴我們怎麼做就好，數發部可以怎麼做。"],["林次長宜敬：好，我跟委員報告一下，基本上現在的詐騙，也是一個產業鏈，它的作法是這樣子，就是詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平臺上，它會放一個廣告，把民眾騙到LINE的私人空間裡面……"],["馬委員文君：對，我知道，你告訴我……"],["林次長宜敬：然後數發部負責的事情就是在前端，我們儘量避免讓民眾被騙到這個LINE的小房間裡面去進行詐騙的工作。至於後面的詐騙發生以後，就是警政署還有金管會要做的事情，所以我們整個政府應該是一個團隊，我們一起合作來面對這個事情，我們也希望立法院這邊給我們多一些……"],["馬委員文君：你簡單的告訴我們，因為你不管是前段、後段，現在不管哪一段，反正都是破口啦！所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛，我們要知道的是政府的具體作為，我剛剛已經建議，如果數發部有這麼高額的預算，你們是不是應該隨時、24小時都要提醒？你不管從哪一個管道，從社群網站也好，或者從媒體也好，或者從其他可能發生的管道也好，儘量讓人民知道現在有什麼樣的詐騙手法，因為至少你每天提醒，人家就會有所警惕。但你今天不是啊！你等到後面，你要去抓、去預防什麼的，其實大概目前為止，你們是做不到的，而且做得不好，所以民眾才會有感，而且也會對政府不信任，所以就這個部分數發部可以做到什麼？簡單說就好了，像你們在宣傳上面可以配合做到什麼？"],["林次長宜敬：我們可以做到的事情，一個當然就像委員所講的加強宣導。另外，我們就是利用網路的機制，接受民眾的報案，民眾報案以後，我們就趕快地去分案。"],["馬委員文君：報案以後通常都來不及了啦！我們現在……"],["林次長宜敬：不是，我講的是前面廣告的部分，這就是我前面講的分工部分，我們負責的是前端，這個地方只是偽冒，所謂的impersonation，就是仿冒名人的這個部分，如果有人仿冒謝金河的話，我們就馬上去通知謝金河，請他做確認，確認以後我們就會把這個資料馬上傳送給LINE或者是Facebook……"],["馬委員文君：你沒有聽清楚我講的話，如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河，你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關金融代表性的人物，或者像一些代表性的，今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員，如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些人，你應該不斷、不斷地提醒，不是當你發生的時候才去告訴謝金河，那已經被騙一堆啦！你應該要站在更前面，數發部不要編了錢，但你做的事情都是在後端的，反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同。","今天因為時間的關係，就這個部分，我覺得人民對於詐騙案才是有感的，我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外，我們無能為力，我再次強調，我們無能為力，像這樣被騙到緬甸或其他地方，這也都是詐騙，不斷、不斷地一直在發生，而且手段越來越殘忍，然後他要的金額也很多，他被騙去以後大概就是會被要求一些贖金，有沒有讓他回來我們不曉得，這個部分請國安單位還有警政署也持續掌握，好不好？","因為今天可能也沒有一個具體的結論跟說法，就這個部分，數發部或者警政署可以有什麼樣積極的作為，請再提供給我們一個更詳細、具體的書面資料，請國安局一定要掌握這個部分，比起其他的，這個可能危害我們國家或者人民的信心更重。"],["張副局長元斌：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 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202.487,"text":"我們有澄清的部分,我們在他來臺灣的時候我們也澄清,我們之前在發布之前我們就已經經過非常多次的會議跟溝通,10月5號他發布了這個之後所講的內容你認為有不實,你有沒有發出澄清?"},{"start":219.296,"end":233.567,"text":"我跟委員報告齁我們也跟AIT的部分因為AIT的部分我們黃次長也親自有沒有發出澄清如果依照他敘述的這個真的是很恐怖我們應該有一些新聞稿在處理這是很恐怖欸"},{"start":234.327,"end":237.508,"text":"所以我再一次請調因為我們現在臺美21世紀的這個貿易倡議正在談判談判到勞動專章這個是我們的機會如果他講的是不屬實我們要強制抵制強制抗議啊怎麼可以隨便給我們列明如果萬一是有我們也要有我們的因應方案啊你不能臭名這樣子一直三次被列啊"},{"start":261.715,"end":289.05,"text":"我需要檢討的部分 那你叫我們遠洋漁業那些人怎麼辦?對 我就需要那個檢討的部分我們已經在檢討但是有一個非常重要的就是他們一直希望我們遠洋漁工納入我們的牢記法可是在我們的實務上因為我們是境外僱用境外解僱我們所有的那個牢檢的部分衛生安全的部分是沒有辦法跟國內的牢記法在一起但是我們確定了我們用同樣的精神但是我們用其他的方式去"},{"start":290.151,"end":293.513,"text":"護長你知道這個嚴重性喔我知道血汗海鮮的這個聲名狼藉如果被擺開在國際間會非常嚴重的影響到我們整個遠洋漁業"},{"start":305.27,"end":310.952,"text":"非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":331.42,"end":335.624,"text":"非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":355.42,"end":378.158,"text":"這個送到學校如果沒有冷藏庫半個小時之後就要倒掉所以學校也沒有辦法那老師也雞飛狗跳那現在竟然搞了一個最後討論了最後誰不負責教育部也不負責農業部也不負責到底誰要負責說那由學校你自行去決定你要不要現在還是如此嗎"},{"start":381.301,"end":385.762,"text":"現在誰決定我學校沒有冷藏庫我也不敢說我不要啊還有叫學生一次帶八瓶的保酒乳保酒乳跟我們的鮮乳一樣嗎帶了八瓶的保酒乳回去給誰喝啊你可以這樣子亂花錢嗎這個有幫助到我們的落農嗎那現在誰決定為什麼要限學校的校長於不義沒有人敢說不要"},{"start":407.826,"end":431.111,"text":"發了保酒乳這怎麼回事啊這麼多錢亂花我跟委員報告齁就是學校在這段時間特別是老師在協助的部分我們非常感謝但是在整個的整個的一個學校訂購的部分齁保酒乳的確高於鮮乳他跟現在目前當然啊我沒有冷藏庫我當然要保酒乳啊不要在內行的公寡行為啦要怎麼辦啊我們後續我想這個政策要不要持續"},{"start":435.892,"end":459.623,"text":"這個政策一定會持續,但是做法,對,做法我們會改變,對,我先謝謝委員,那委員也提供一些意見,就是說我們基本上不會再用今年,像現在目前的共同供應契約,我們後續我們會再去更謹慎的考慮兩個前提,我們新的政策絕對不會讓學校的老師增加負擔,"},{"start":460.603,"end":460.923,"text":"人家都很願意耶!"},{"start":489.873,"end":502.704,"text":"您部長應該去研擬方案,不管你談戰也好,不管你什麼方案,什麼時候可以研擬方案出來?我想我們在這個月底會跟行政院報告,報告完以後我們就會...這個月底您這個研擬方案絕對不能再打擾我們的這個學校,那真正的目的是要照顧我們的農農,這個是目的,好。"},{"start":514.494,"end":520.937,"text":"再來,萊豬扣關我們國內的國產豬肉競爭那好不容易當時的農委會,現在的農業部我們四年的養豬白益養基金輔導我請教部長,你到現在今年剩下51億"},{"start":536.485,"end":539.768,"text":"我請一堆的人在那邊排隊照著你的程序在走準備"},{"start":564.048,"end":592.158,"text":"我跟委員報告就是委員非常關心這個部分我們在114年到117我們爭取了79億的部分大概這個經費現在行政院在核定那特別是委員關心的我們從養豬場一直到肉攤肉攤的冷鏈的系統那這個肉攤的冷鏈系統我們後續也會增加我們的補助的一個數量來達到你現在告訴我兩個原則第一個也就是你目前所做的"},{"start":593.318,"end":612.096,"text":"你持續在爭取預算。第二個,人家已經申請的,你是務必要讓人家達證成功。對不對?我們計劃核定的話,我們一定會想辦法讓它經費到位。這個我們一定會來努力。就是持續把它完成嘛。那為什麼你的128億當時,為什麼會落差那麼大?是錢亂花?"},{"start":617.581,"end":632.857,"text":"還是怎麼回事呢?還是挪用到其他的地方去?本席具體覺得邏輯很奇怪。我跟委員報告,128億的百億基金是專款專用,不能移到別的地方去。對啊,那為什麼會落差那麼大呢?"},{"start":633.882,"end":633.902,"text":"謝謝楊委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時56分）謝謝主席，邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們討論一個國際民生的議題，美國勞動部在10月5號發布最新童工及強迫勞動製品清單，再度將臺灣的遠洋漁業列入，你有看到這則訊息嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那怎麼辦？為什麼會發生這種事情，而且是第三度，為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，美國勞動部那邊近年度有來臺灣做一些瞭解，實際上經過他們瞭解後，他們也確認我們其實有做非常大的努力，特別是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但他們一樣這麼給我們公布啊！我們要怎麼應對呢？請教。"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺灣遠洋漁業繼2020年之後又首度上榜，是第三次遭受列名，這是怎麼回事啊？是真的假的啊？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個，針對他們勞動條件的部分，他們是希望我們遠洋漁工的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管別人怎麼樣，人家已經列名了，目前臺灣這麼努力、我們的漁民這麼努力，這樣子的努力卻還是唯一被列名的產業，怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們會分幾個部分，第一個，針對漁船上面的勞動條件，我們做了非常大的努力，跟遠洋漁船船主協商，所以我們提高了很多漁民在漁船上作業的勞動條件，做了很大的改善。第二個，在生活條件的部分，當他下船以後，我們給他更多自由的空間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在所說的，跟他們跟你講的完全不搭嘎，他們說外籍漁工遭仲介以不實工資契約欺騙，被迫就仲介費簽下借貸契約……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：背上了龐大的債務，而且身分證被扣留，每天18到22小時在惡劣的環境下工作，遭受到肢體暴力跟言語的凌辱，甚至他的薪資跟住宿費也都被非法扣除。他們講的這些到底是真的還是假的？你不要講你自己的。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我瞭解……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人家提列的這些……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個部分，有關仲介相關費用部分，因為我們遠洋漁工是境外僱用、境外解僱，都是在境外的對方國那邊在處理的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你查不到？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們現在透過外館，希望能有更好的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那他所列的這些惡名，到底屬不屬實？本席就很憤慨啊！到底是真的還是假的？"],["陳部長駿季：他們是有一些誤會，一直……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有一些誤會的話，你有沒有澄清？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有澄清了部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候澄清的？"],["陳部長駿季：在他們來臺灣的時候，我們也澄清……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是10月5號發布的，你是什麼時候澄清的？"],["陳部長駿季：在發布之前，我們就已經經過非常多次的會議跟溝通了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，請你針對本席的提問。10月5號發布了這個之後，所講的內容你認為有不實，你有沒有發出澄清？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們也跟AIT……因為AIT的部分，我們黃次長也親自……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有發出澄清？如果依照他敘述的，這個真的是很恐怖耶！"],["陳部長駿季：我們應該有一些新聞稿在處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這事很恐怖耶！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我再一次請教，因為現在臺美21世紀貿易倡議正在談判，談判到勞動專章，這個是我們的機會耶！如果他講的是不屬實，我們要強制抵制、強制抗議啊！怎麼可以隨便給我們列名，如果萬一是有，我們也要有我們的因應方案啊！"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不能一直臭名這樣子，三次被列啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我想需要檢討的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你叫遠洋漁業那些人怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：需要檢討的部分，我們一直在檢討，但是有一個非常重要的，就是他們一直希望遠洋漁工納入我們的勞基法，可是在實務上，因為我們是境外僱用、境外解僱，所有勞檢的部分、衛生安全的部分沒有辦法跟國內的勞基法在一起，但是我們確定了，我們用同樣的精神，但是用其他的方式去加強勞動力的檢查……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你知道這個嚴重性嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：血汗海鮮的聲名狼藉如果被攤開在國際間，會非常嚴重影響到我們整個遠洋漁業，它如果被市場淘汰，那你怎麼辦？這個是部長必須要很憂心的，而且必須去應對的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們非常重視這個問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你很重視，你必須要詳實去研議方案……"],["陳部長駿季：對，其實我們從7月開始……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟我們的業者好好去討論，好不好？這很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把討論的方案也給本席。同時要再跟你討論2025年的紐西蘭進口鮮乳，它是零關稅，也因為這樣的一個政策，所以我們努力要幫助我們的酪農，4年44億，從今年的9月份開始提供給國小學生跟附設幼兒園。但是發生了那麼大的事情，在前一段時間大家都一直在討論，學校也沒有冷藏庫，送到學校如果沒有冷藏庫，半個小時之後就要倒掉，所以學校也沒有辦法，老師也雞飛狗跳。現在討論到最後是誰不負責？教育部也不負責、農業部也不負責，到底誰要負責？說由學校自行去決定要不要。現在還是如此嗎？現在誰決定？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：學校沒有冷藏庫，他也不敢說他不要啊！還有叫學生一次帶8瓶的保久乳，保久乳跟鮮乳一樣嗎？帶了8瓶的保久乳回去給誰喝啊？你可以這樣子亂花錢嗎？真的有幫助到我們的酪農嗎？現在誰決定？為什麼要陷學校的校長於不義？沒有人敢說不要，發了保久乳，這怎麼回事啊？這麼多錢亂花！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，學校在這段時間，特別是老師在協助的部分，我們非常感謝，但是在整個學校訂購的部分，保久乳的確高於鮮乳，它跟目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然啊！它沒有冷藏庫，它當然要保久乳啊！不要再內行的說外行話啦！怎麼辦啦？"],["陳部長駿季：後續我想我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個政策要不要持續？"],["陳部長駿季：這個政策一定會持續，但是作法會改變。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好不容易找到4年44億要幫助我們的酪農、幫助我們的孩子，搞得這樣子！"],["陳部長駿季：我先謝謝委員，委員也提供一些意見，我們基本上不會再用像目前的共同供應契約……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：後續我們會再更謹慎地考慮，有兩個前提，我們新的政策絕對不會讓學校的老師增加負擔，一定會送到班上；第二個部分就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：誰送？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會用其他的方式，包括用現在的團膳方式去搭配……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：去合作啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是合作的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看為了校園安全，我們拜託便利商店，學校旁邊有便利商店，他們都有主機，我說你加碼，鏡頭對著學校，有什麼事情就可以馬上調，這個資料就有了，人家都很願意耶！部長應該去研擬方案……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在已經在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管團膳也好、不管什麼方法，什麼時候可以研擬方案出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在這個月底會跟行政院報告，報告完以後我們就會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個研議方案絕對不能再打擾學校。"],["陳部長駿季：對，兩個原則……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：真正目的是要照顧我們的酪農，這個是目的。"],["陳部長駿季：是，一定會用這種方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再來是萊豬叩關，我們國內的國產豬肉競爭，它好不容易、好不容易，當時的農委會、現在的農業部，編列4年的養豬百億基金輔導轉型。我請教部長，到今年剩下51億，128.3億4年，剩下51億，但還是有很多人排隊申請不到，為什麼？當時的一百二十八億多，你們一定有去針對我們的量體需求，今年剩下51億，接下來要怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一堆申請的人在那邊排隊，照著你的程序在走，怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，委員非常關心這個部分，我們在114年到117年爭取了79億，大概是這個經費，現在行政院也在核定。特別是委員關心的，從養豬場一直到肉攤的冷鏈系統，而肉攤的冷鏈系統，我們後續也會增加補助的數量，來達到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在告訴我兩個原則，第一個，也就是你目前所做的，你持續在爭取預算；第二個，人家已經申請的，你務必要讓人家達陣成功，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：一定，計畫核定的話，我們一定會想辦法讓經費到位，這個我們一定會來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是持續把它完成。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["主席（陳委員超明代）：楊委員，麻煩一下……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你的128億當時為什麼會落差那麼大？是錢亂花還是怎麼回事呢？還是挪用到其他的地方去？"],["陳部長駿季：我們128億……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席具體覺得邏輯很奇怪。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["主席：時間已經超過很多了。"],["陳部長駿季：128億的百億基金是專款專用，不能移到別的地方去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！那為什麼會落差那麼大呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個牽涉到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你也把現在補助的以條列式去列出來……"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望能夠幫助我們所有的豬農……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：真正到肉攤的冷鏈都可以完整，這是我們從一而終在努力的方向嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我想楊委員的這個建議我們一定會採納……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["陳部長駿季：全程的部分，我們把資料提供給委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請我們召委邱志偉委員質詢。他等得很不耐煩，沒有關係啦！像這個時間就是延長2分鐘再加1分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的一個查核那所以像委員所提到的可能就我的理解應該是各單位還是要有自己的一個查核的機制那再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼我們可以慢慢 我會希望跟這個之後再請那個局長我們一起來思考一下這個立法的這個做法那我最後再補充一點"},{"start":169.477,"end":192.798,"text":"美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的這個國防部來去負責95%的背景核可因為其他 包含我們國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的這個局處沒有辦法嘛所以95%是由一個局處來做統整那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處包含FBI等等可能會有自己的查核方式因為他們本身就是情治單位所以這個部分我們來去思考我們先請副局長來 好不好謝謝 謝謝周委員 謝謝"},{"start":195.603,"end":202.42,"text":"時間先暫停一下趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔我做一個宣告待會馬文君委員執行完畢後休息五分鐘謝謝請繼續"},{"start":210.795,"end":231.911,"text":"謝謝主席 委員好副局長 那我們剛才提到的 這一個部分就你所知 國安局內部也好 或者是其他情治單位也好他們做背景合可的 主要的合可的東西是什麼他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼各位報告 就本局 本局其實我們有"},{"start":233.991,"end":243.507,"text":"同仁進來以後我們會做安全查核那主要是機密等級的話其實我們都按照機密等級的規定來進行那個身份的核可"},{"start":244.138,"end":245.66,"text":"我們基本上會接不同的機密,例如密等、機密等,我們會有不同的查核"},{"start":266.042,"end":279.615,"text":"我懂你的意思但是我現在問的問題是安全核可的背景查核你們查詢它的背景資訊裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核嗎這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明"},{"start":281.238,"end":308.961,"text":"跟委員報告那有關我們查核的部分那基本上我們有一個就是說大概有一個SOP包括他的一個塑形也好或者是塑形可能就包括就是家人這一部分那另外一個就是說我們裡面也會進來的話也會做一個視訊那視訊我們有特定的單位特定單位會針對他的一個我們基本上會做一個訪談"},{"start":310.382,"end":331.173,"text":"您的職銜是?報告委員,我是我們國內處處長。謝謝處長。事性跟背景查核在我們的友邦,包含美國,它是兩個不同的。你適不適任這個職位,跟你的背景是不同的。那你趕快把它混為一談。那沒有關係,我為什麼要講這些事情不是要刁難大家,而是希望說,"},{"start":332.473,"end":356.843,"text":"徹徹底底的全面檢討從國安局開始甚至由國安局來未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核因為這個東西已經不斷的被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的這個洩密、揭密的這種令亂、混亂的機制這是確實存在的所以我們現在要把它建立起來那我剛才提到這個原因是說你們現在講了半天最多就是講有沒有犯罪你肅刑嘛你怎麼奠定一個人肅刑"},{"start":357.603,"end":357.703,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":388.564,"end":409.039,"text":"我過去的經驗告訴我說這些都沒有放在他考核裡面啊包含他的心理狀況包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用這其實就是我現在講的不是國防部的這些五官喔包含文職人員喔文職人員其實他我們不是機密的掌握而已包含政策戰略的方向的掌握"},{"start":409.739,"end":432.183,"text":"像我們我現在是國會議員但過去我是文職人員的話我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些有沒有受到外國的影響有沒有外國的偏好它的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行嘛"},{"start":432.743,"end":448.902,"text":"我現在講的這個是包括我們國會幕僚包括我們未來所有的美國式聯邦機構包括我們說的部會的機構每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可的最基本的建制要出來而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會的"},{"start":450.183,"end":469.071,"text":"也就是說報案美國聯邦他們是用SF86的一個通用表格把他們所有的階密的這個層級的因應的階密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料它是有一個通用性嘛我們現在沒有通用性嘛所以我們才會出現來我們來顯示一下最近幾次泄密的這些狀況"},{"start":470.091,"end":484.624,"text":"包含承包商也好包含海軍包含國防部內部的人員也好包含法務部、連政署派駐國防部的人員也好你揭秘陳琦是什麼我問國防部部長問來問去大家都沒有一個這個由這個連政署來回應"},{"start":485.945,"end":503.698,"text":"你根本就沒有一個統一可以去做安全合格層級的這個制定的話你從什麼時候開始講都太晚我真的是希望說由處長或者是我們的副局長跟局長來討論一下到底是由誰要建立一個最基本的架構我剛才提到的是國防部"},{"start":504.659,"end":521.007,"text":"也可以是國安局那至少美國他是有經過一連串的變化他過去是從國家背景調查局就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的新的一個局處然後來去再合併到國防部的反情報安全局有做法擺在那邊"},{"start":522.108,"end":547.018,"text":"可以學習也可以去建立一個比較符合台灣現狀的這個機制但是不能不做這個已經是我相信你們也很清楚嘛從國防部到國安局到各個的情勢單位一定有被很多我們的盟邦的友人講說這就是問題嘛這就是問題所在所以為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新的設備的其中一個原因我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛"},{"start":548.208,"end":577.728,"text":"我再提到還有國會議員的部分國會議員從我們進立法院宣誓的那一刻起基本上我們就是憲法所授予的這個職權本來我們就可以接觸到這些密等但是我為什麼要說要把這些國會的幕僚人員也納入密等安全的審核就是說我的國會辦公室裡面有沒有可能我得到這些資訊之後我這些沒有經過安全核可的資源把它洩漏出去等於說沒有義務沒有監管的機制跟限制在的話"},{"start":578.968,"end":599.073,"text":"國會也可以是一個破口但國會不可以是破口因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要去來監督你們所以包含我國會議員以外的這些幕僚議員必須要有一個機制來去做審核當這些人經過審核的時候你就不可以懷疑我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口因為他們已經經過安全審核了"},{"start":599.787,"end":616.833,"text":"所以我們不是要說把所有的東西都化成機密最高機密你說你無所不防無所不備就等於是你什麼都沒有辦法好好的防護我一直在強調這個概念那我今天為什麼要花十幾分鐘在強調這個概念就是說當你沒有這些任何最基本的機密的這個安全核可的話"},{"start":617.073,"end":640.565,"text":"安全合格只是第一步喔你有這個安全合格不代表你有資格接觸這些資訊你必須need to know你需要知道的時候才知道比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置我需要知道但我需要機密裡面的那個細節嗎比方說這個我們的這個空軍的飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌用什麼樣的化學質地我不需要知道"},{"start":641.405,"end":660.161,"text":"你必須配合need to know跟你的安全核可搭配才是我們所謂的這個揭秘的層級我們現在只是過過場過個樣子過去是這樣現在也是這樣嘛那今天開始我們就可以做一個全面的一個革新嘛那但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色"},{"start":660.982,"end":677.152,"text":"因為我再次強調我問其他部門的時候說這個其他部門我們應該有內部他們自己的人士來去做審查沒有辦法做審查我舉例吧這個國科會你要去怎麼做給人家做背景審查當然是由全責機關把這樣的資料"},{"start":679.773,"end":692.67,"text":"函請國安局或相關的國安單位．可以是調查局、可以是國安局．這個我們要一起思考清楚．來去做背景的安全核可．因為未來．不是只有國防部才會揭秘．不是只有外交部才會揭秘．國科會會不會揭秘．"},{"start":694.43,"end":719.875,"text":"國會也會啊我們過去的這個科技部會不會揭秘數位部會不會揭秘他們接觸到的密採是越來越高但是我們用過去的這種方式來去對待他們的話那對被懷疑的人是不公平的但是卻因為有這樣子沒有這樣子的機制來說的話那這個狀況還是會一再的出現嗎所以我就從海軍開始到承包商到什麼全部都是一樣現在就是還是很亂承包商有需要安全核可嗎"},{"start":721.195,"end":736.163,"text":"其實很多國家都需要耶那你覺得我們現在有沒有人很多大啦啦的開著工程車進入營區的當然都要檢查一下身份證什麼的那其實你不知道他的這個合格的層級到哪裡那我們比方說在美國的國會他們有安全"},{"start":737.003,"end":755.399,"text":"外交的國防相關的安全室這個安全室裡面是可以阻斷所有這個竊聽的儀器的我們國會有嗎?沒有嗎?也是需要你們情治單位來協助建制啊?放我們所有的這些所謂的機密報告其實大家摸著良心有機密嗎?有機敏性嗎?"},{"start":756.72,"end":779.729,"text":"其實知道大概是都沒有啦那你機密你要給人家畫機密最高機密是因應假設這個資訊流出來對這個局處或者這個國家的危害來去判的不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢所以我就說這個東西很機密其實不是這樣子的就是我們要有一定的做法那"},{"start":780.885,"end":809.474,"text":"我昨天也在講以前這個上個禮拜也在跟局長在討論就是說要建立這個機制的時候是什麼時候是最好的時機答案是10年前但如果你10年前沒有辦法做的話那最好的方式就是現在做謝謝謝謝副局長報告委員我可不可以我簡單做一個說明那有關機密核整的部分事實上就國安局來講我們內部所以我剛剛講的部分那包括剛剛委員所提到的包括有關跟外國接觸的部分包括心理包括藥物使用的部分"},{"start":809.994,"end":833.203,"text":"我知道國安局都有所以我剛剛講的是什麼文職人員包含國安會我們在講到的是包含我們各個不同的部門的介面層級那過去我們每一個包含外交部、內政部、數位部他其實做背景沒有在做這個嘛就是因為他們沒有這個編列這個預算沒有這個部門去做嘛那我講美國的外交部有外交安全局啊"},{"start":834.246,"end":854.397,"text":"美國的國務院下面有外交安全局再去做這個的身份的核可嗎?我們外交部這不是你的夜管棒我們就不說了但是我們的各個部門有嗎?數位部有嗎?對不對?國科會可能有可能沒有這個我們要去查嘛但是就是你現在科技是我們的核心嘛我甚至講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的一個部門"},{"start":855.477,"end":871.967,"text":"其實這些我們都一起來思考好不好那這個我們共同來研究謝謝我副局長我是真的是可能跟局長來討論一下啦好不好就是做一個你們有開跨部會會議的時候好不好做一個表率來去跟大家一起來不然就是整天"},{"start":873.069,"end":898.311,"text":"沒有相關的機制我是覺得很可惜啦已經有點晚了已經被人家講到這樣子每次都說我們國家的機密保守的狀況不好你看我們才幾個月我商量到現在9個月已經多少次了然後像這個啊你看陸戰66旅工程用朝夷一國這個甚至沒有安全核可甚至連身份證都沒有拿出來"},{"start":900.357,"end":902.654,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?這個不太對啦好不好?謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時42分）我們請局長，局長應該只剩下5分鐘，我們前半段就先請國安局局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長好。局長，上一次我們針對安全核可的部分來做質詢，那為什麼我們特別針對國安局局長的原因是因為，大概只有蔡局長最願意用最快、最直指核心的方式來回應我們，其他國防相關、情資相關的這些官員，我總是覺得在跳來跳去，這點我很遺憾。局長是來自學界，所以從我們結束質詢之後，馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況，這點首先我必須要非常的讚可，並且謝謝國安局的同仁。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：第二點，國安的安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了，我一直不斷地重複這件事情，因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權力、責任、義務跟限制，也就是說我知道很多事情不代表我很厲害，而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報，而作為國會議員，我們是憲法的國會議員，我們憲法下的話，當然我們有一定的接密層級，包含總統、副總統跟這些國會議員都應該有，也必須有，但是我們上次提到的是什麼？提到國會幕僚，局長你上次提到說，包含歐洲有時候百分之百都是機密預算。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，預算的部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：這是沒有錯的，我沒有說這是錯的，但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣一個問題，那是誰在核可、在審查？他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去，就百分之百這樣子來核可，那預算都不用監督嗎？答案是需要監督的，所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長，幕僚長必須……他們的老闆是國會議員，上次我們只是外交部的參訪團，國會議員助理參訪團，這些幕僚長都必須要接到有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的核可才能夠進去審查，有這個機制。","我必須再強調，從現在開始，我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全核可，就像我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的局處來去做安全核可跟背景核可，那在美國的話，95%是由他們的DCSA，就是國防部的反情報安全局來去做背景核可，那現在到底是由國防部做主要的查核，還是由國安局做這個查核，還是由調查局做這個查核？我只問這個問題，先請局長回應之後就請副局長回答，你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為一般來講，國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的查核，所以像委員所提到的，可能就我的理解，應該各單位還是要有自己的一個查核機制。再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們可以慢慢……我會希望之後再跟局長一起來思考一下這個立法的一個作法。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：那我最後再補充一點，美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的，國防部去負責95%的背景核可，因為其他包含國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的局處？沒有辦法嘛！所以95%是由一個局處來做統整，那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處，包含FBI等等，可能會有自己的查核方式，因為他們本身就是情治單位，所以這個部分我們來思考，我們先請副局長來。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：時間先暫停一下，趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔，我作一個宣告：待會兒馬文君委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。謝謝，請繼續。"],["張副局長元斌：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：副局長，對於我們剛才提到的這一個部分，就你所知，國安局內部也好，或者是其他情治單位也好，他們做背景核可的主要核可東西是什麼？他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，就本局來講，其實我們有同仁進來以後，我們會做安全查核，如果是接密等級的話，其實我們都按接密等級的規定來進行身分的核可。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以副局長，你剛剛還是沒有回答到我的問題，我說你們是以什麼樣做背景審查，是以他過去有沒有犯罪紀錄、是以他過去的心理狀況、犯罪行為、機密資訊處理的能力，還是用什麼樣的方式？"],["張副局長元斌：委員，是這樣，我們基本上會接不同的機密，譬如密等、機密等，我們會有不同的查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是，我懂你的意思，但是我現在問的問題是說安全核可的背景查核，你們查詢他的背景資訊，裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核？"],["張副局長元斌：這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明？"],["陳委員冠廷：沒問題。"],["陳處長：跟委員報告，有關我們查核的部分，基本上我們大概有一個SOP，包括他的素行也好，素行可能就包括家人這一部分；另外一個就是說，我們裡面也會做一個適性，而適性我們有特定的單位，特定單位會針對他的一個……我們基本上會做一個訪談。"],["陳委員冠廷：不好意思，怎麼稱呼？您的職銜是？"],["陳處長：報告委員，我是國內處處長。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝處長，適性跟背景查核在我們的友邦包含美國，它是兩個不同的，你適不適任這個職位，跟你的背景機密查核是不同的。"],["陳處長：沒錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：那你剛才把它混為一談，沒有關係，我為什麼要講這件事情？不是要刁難大家，而是希望說澈澈底底的全面檢討，從國安局開始，甚至由國安局來，未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核，因為這個東西已經不斷地被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的洩密、接密的這種混亂的機制，這是確實存在的，所以我們現在要把它建立起來。我剛才提到這個的原因是說，你們現在講了半天，最多就是講有沒有犯罪、素行，你怎麼認定一個人素行？就是犯罪紀錄嘛！包含我進國安會的時候，我的背景核可基本上就是把我的身家資料填完之後，我的學歷、經歷、背景等等之後，就看我有沒有犯罪紀錄，沒有犯罪紀錄，我基本上就被核可了，但不是嘛！有沒有犯罪紀錄是最基本的一個要求，不是完全的要求，有沒有針對他的機密資訊活動、外部行為跟有沒有受到外國影響、有沒有受到外國偏好、財務考量，這些是必須因應他的密等來去做最基本的考核，至少我過去的經驗告訴我說，這些都沒有放在考核裡面，包含他的心理狀況，包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用，這些其實就是……","我現在講的不是國防部的這些武官，包含文職人員，文職人員其實不是機密的掌握而已，包含政策、戰略方向的掌握，像我現在是國會議員，過去我是文職人員的話，我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚，所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響，如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些，有沒有受到外國的影響、有沒有外國的偏好、他的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準，每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行。我現在講的這個是包含我們國會幕僚，包含我們未來所有的……美國是聯邦機構，包含我們所有部會的機構，每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可最基本的建制要出來，而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會，也就是說，包含美國聯邦，他們是用SF 86的一個通用表格，把他們所有因應的接密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料，它是有通用性的，我們現在沒有通用性，所以才會出現這些狀況。我們來顯示一下最近幾次洩密的狀況，包含承包商也好，包含海軍、包含國防部內部的人員也好，包含法務部、廉政署派駐國防部的人員也好，你的接密層級是什麼？我問國防部部長，問來問去，大家都沒有……這個應該由廉政署來回應，如果你根本就沒有統一去做安全合格層級的制定的話，你從什麼時候開始講都太晚，我真的希望由處長或者是副局長跟局長來討論一下，到底是誰要建立一個最基本的架構？我剛才提到的是國防部，當然也可以是國安局，至少美國是有經過一連串的變化，它過去是從國家背景調查局，也就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的一個新局處，然後再合併到國防部的反情報安全局。也就是說，做法擺在那邊，可以學習，也可以去建立一個比較符合臺灣現狀的機制，但是不能不做，我相信你們也很清楚從國防部到國安局到各個情治單位，一定有被很多的盟邦友人講說這就是問題，這就是問題所在，為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新設備的其中一個原因，就是我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛！","我再提到國會議員的部分，從我們進立法院宣誓的那一刻起，基本上就是憲法所授予的職權，本來我們就可以接觸到這些密等，但是我為什麼說要把國會幕僚人員也納入密等安全的審核？就是說在國會辦公室裡面，有沒有可能我得到這些資訊之後，由這些沒有經過安全核可的職員洩漏出去？等於說沒有義務、沒有監管的機制跟限制在的話，國會也可以是一個破口。但國會不可以是破口，因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要來監督你們，所以包含國會議員以外的這些幕僚人員，必須要有一個機制去做審核，當這些人經過審核之後，我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口，因為他們已經經過安全審核了。","我們不是要把所有的東西都化成機密或最高機密，我們說你無所不防、無所不備，就等於是你什麼都沒有辦法好好的防護，我一直在強調這一個概念，我今天為什麼要花十幾分鐘在強調這個概念？就是說當你沒有任何最基本機密的安全核可的話，其實安全核可只是第一步，你有這個安全核可不代表你有資格接觸這些資訊，你必須在你需要知道的時候才知道，比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置？我需要知道。但我需要知道機密裡面的細節嗎？比方說，我們的空軍飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌、用什麼樣的化學質地，我不需要知道，你必須把need to know跟你的安全核可搭配，才是所謂的揭密層級，我們現在只是過過場、做個樣子，過去是這樣，現在也是這樣，從今天開始我們就可以全面革新，但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色，我再次強調，我問其他部門的時候，他說其他部門應該要由他們內部自己的人士來做審查，沒有辦法做審查。我舉例國科會要怎麼給人家做背景審查？當然是由權責機關把這樣的資料函請國安局或相關國安單位，可以是調查局，也可以是國安局，這個我們要一起思考清楚，然後去做背景的安全核可，因為未來不是只有國防部才會接密，也不是只有外交部才會接密，國科會會不會接密？國科會也會啊！過去的科技部會不會接密？數位部會不會接密？他們接觸到的密等是越來越高，但是我們用過去的方式來對待他們的話，對於被懷疑的人而言是不公平的，如果沒有這樣子的機制的話，這個狀況還是會一再的出現，所以從海軍開始到承包商到其他部分全都一樣，現在就還是很凌亂，承包商有需要安全核可嗎？其實很多國家都需要，但你覺得現在有沒有很多人大剌剌的開著工程車進入營區的？當然都要檢查一下身分證什麼的，但其實你不知道核可的層級到哪裡。比方說，在美國國會他們有外交及國防相關的安全室，這個安全室裡面可以阻斷所有竊聽的儀器，我們的國會有嗎？沒有啊！這也需要情治單位來協助建置，不然我們所有的機密報告，其實大家摸著良心，有機密嗎？有機敏性嗎？我們也知道大概都沒有啦！你要給人家劃機密或最高機密，是因應假設這些資訊流出來，對這個局處或對這個國家的危害去判定的，而不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密，我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢，所以我就說這個東西很機敏，其實不是這樣子的，而是我們要有一定的作法。我昨天也在講，上個禮拜我們也在跟局長討論，就是說要建立這個機制的話，什麼時候是最好的時機？答案是十年前，但如果你十年前沒辦法做的話，那最好的方式就是現在做，謝謝。"],["陳處長：報告委員，我簡要做一個說明，有關機密核等的部分，事實上就國安局內部來講，除了我剛剛講的部分，包括剛剛委員所提到的，包括有關跟外國接觸的部分，包括心理、包括藥物使用的部分……"],["陳委員冠廷：我知道國安局都有，所以我剛剛講的是什麼？我指的是文職人員，包含國安會，我們講到的是包含各個不同部門的接密層級，過去包含外交部、內政部、數位部，其實都沒有在做背景審查，因為他們沒有編列相關預算，沒有這個部門去做嘛！美國國務院下面有外交安全局在做身分的核可，因為外交部不是你的業管範圍，所以我們就不說了，但是我們的各個部門有嗎？數位部有嗎？國科會可能有也可能沒有，這個我們要去查，但現在科技是我們的核心，我甚至要講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的部門？這些我們都一起來思考好不好？"],["陳處長：謝謝委員，這個我們共同來研究，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：副局長，這個可能要跟局長討論一下好不好？就是你們有開跨部會會議的時候，做一個表率跟大家一起來，不然一直都沒有相關機制，我是覺得很可惜啦！已經有點晚了，已經被人家講到這樣子，每次都說我們國家的機密保守狀況不好，你看才幾個月？從我上任到現在九個月，已經多少事了？你看像陸戰66旅工程竟然用逃逸移工，這個甚至沒有安全核可，甚至連身分證都沒有拿出來，你懂我意思嗎？這個不太對啦，好不好？"],["陳處長：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，副局長請回。","接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 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的關稅不一定都是零關稅,他有的是,像日本就是70幾而已。我現在這叫做全消散,讓你鍛鍊身體,你保管物流保管這裡才好。你班班有錢,我再教你一個小招,你不要只有靠同一,像黑松哪裡都有經銷商,只要他有冷凍庫,你再補一點錢給他送到學校,每一個人幾個小匙一塊就該關了,不要死守那幾個計點上。"},{"start":295.054,"end":298.437,"text":"我感謝委員的建議,那我們在下一次的那個學校的學童的宣禮的部分齁,我們會有更好的更精進的方式,兩個原則。"},{"start":311.348,"end":318.133,"text":"委員我告訴你喔未來我們在推動那個學童乳的部分有兩個原則第一個原則就是說我不會再讓我們的學校的老師造成任何的負擔那學校的老師"},{"start":333.423,"end":333.544,"text":"再來啊齁"},{"start":351.684,"end":364.939,"text":"你這個科技發展只有50億我看了一些資料今天昨天的報紙說農業科技我們的種苗、疫苗各方面就是等於晶片一樣"},{"start":366.517,"end":387.552,"text":"我常常在看你們的科專計畫裡面,我覺得很難找,你要農業做好,我們就像胸片一樣要有很好的品種、很好的異種出來。但是到這裡,我早就跟你們說,把你們科研的計畫理念有好的新的產品,沒關係,問題要問問。"},{"start":393.089,"end":396.538,"text":"我經常看你們說台灣農業興奮,但台灣又選到產權,我又不知幾月選到產權了。"},{"start":401.609,"end":420.204,"text":"我自己怎麼說這個問題,你們的風鈴我大概五本雜誌我一定要看,風鈴還有什麼農場椅什麼還有茶葉桌,這多看多把地形,那你們有這麼好的研發,你應該要做清楚,讓我們去了解,這裡這麼多禮物在哪裡,不像我在政科。"},{"start":423.366,"end":449.411,"text":"因為我一直在看這一些有沒有新的東西,看烏閣諸主審,如果你海邊把它種下來,那整個景觀不一樣,價值又高。你只用水供,不然拿一些資料展現你們科技的研發成果。你們的成功研驗,你們的農業實驗所、林業實驗所、醫業實驗所那麼多,我就不知道你們在做什麼。"},{"start":455.097,"end":466.971,"text":"臺灣的90%以上的研發成果都是我們試驗單位提供的可是他們的宣導我是覺得說沒有一些系統性的宣導讓農民知道那這個部分我想我們會來努力由科技市這邊來主責"},{"start":469.133,"end":469.693,"text":"發言委員：發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":499.551,"end":511.936,"text":"我們有農金署的署長有來。好。講到這個問題就很敏感。您進口蛋的時候,就是超支阿。阿你農業金庫,齁,都中酒齁,這個..."},{"start":516.741,"end":524.987,"text":"這個中央市產會,農政15頁。農政15頁是第8。沒有沒有,我不管多少,你先聽我說,你不要一直以便排。7.5億有擔保,7.5億沒有擔保。沒有擔保你這樣處理,你們都沒人講話。還是講家對講家,講家好辦事情。"},{"start":544.565,"end":545.505,"text":"你農業金庫換工股的你占了41.62%"},{"start":572.691,"end":576.912,"text":"農業部37.59、農業信保基約4.03、Gaia 41.6但是換農業會的體系是58.33現在農業金庫的五席獨立董事由於農業部指派我們推薦"},{"start":596.133,"end":617.884,"text":"這當然是法規的問題,跟現在的同儲分配款相關,誰當家、誰當錢,又有錢又有錢都不想放,但是你是還在出生的。我覺得農業基金庫的獨立董事,你也要"},{"start":619.281,"end":638.076,"text":"民間的股份你也要尊重。你知道嗎?現在公司法跟證券交易法,裡面有股票超過1%就有資格推薦這個獨立董事。阿你現在泛民股50倍的"},{"start":639.497,"end":656.992,"text":"沒有一點推薦的權利。我曉得這時代的背景,看你有沒有大作為。你如果這樣子去危險的換農業,那個換農業會體系將五十八%你也要留三個兩個人,才有監督的作用。"},{"start":657.552,"end":678.28,"text":"因為時間有關係,我跟委員報告,我們會後是不是再跟委員做充分的說明。好,這個改進一下,現在出現的,要有社會公平的觀念。我想我們會跟委員做充分的說明。兩分鐘到你怎麼站起來,不是要給我嗎?你以為小的問這樣敏感的問題,你就跳出來啊。這個問題我也想了解,這個也一起來跟我講一下。"},{"start":679.84,"end":683.805,"text":"這問題很重要我也想了解。你也想問啦,問短一點,你要繼續問繼續追,謝謝。繼續關心,謝謝陳昌明委員,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時44分）首先謝謝召委，有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早安。"],["陳委員超明：部長早安，部長好。我第一個問題請教，不然我白頭髮會很多。我看你的公共建設裡面有農產品冷鏈物流，113年有34.73億，114年只有16.42億，一下減了21億，我每次質詢時跟你說苗栗要冷鏈物流，你跟我說「不會缺席」，我信心十足，但是我看到預算的時候，我又開始睡不著覺了，這個到底有沒有苗栗，你要跟我講一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一點，114年度的預算，我們計畫的執行期間是114年到117年，整個大計畫大概將近有71億左右，這個部分行政院還在審查，但是它先編列114年度的預算，114年度的預算最主要是處理之前還在興建的這個部分。第二個，有一部分的畜牧移出來，過去23億還有一部分是畜牧……"],["陳委員超明：你講得讓我聽了很高興，還有百多億要來做冷鏈物流，這是以前還沒做完成的，你現在補給它了……"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以……"],["陳委員超明：但我的重點問題是，你答應我的苗栗冷鏈物流有沒有啦？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經在審查，審查通過的話，一定會想辦法爭取預算去支應。"],["陳委員超明：我苗栗縣政府為了這個冷鏈物流花了1億去買土地，開始要把事情做好……"],["陳部長駿季：現在在審查，現在在審查。"],["陳委員超明：現在在審查，請你儘量、儘速通過，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我說114到117國發會正在審查我們整體的經費……"],["陳委員超明：好，那就再拜託你。"],["陳部長駿季：已經審查過的時候，我們經費的編列……"],["陳委員超明：你說得這麼長，我只想聽你說有還是沒有，你跟我說「有」，我才笑得出來。"],["陳部長駿季：這件事情不是「有」和「沒有」而已，還有一些前提，行政院要核定這個經費以後我們才會處理嘛！"],["陳委員超明：我都瞭解啦！核定下來就是苗栗縣一定有啦！"],["陳部長駿季：苗栗縣本身的審查計畫通過以後才會執行嘛！所以這兩個前提要……"],["陳委員超明：好啦！我要特別拜託農糧署署長，我已經拜託你十幾次了，也就是磕頭而已，要幫我加油一下好嗎？好，謝謝。","再來，部長，我很擔心一個問題，我實在講，我們都說臺灣的農業很強，但我覺得農業非常脆弱。我舉一件事情給你們一個警惕，你講「班班有鮮乳」，我們現在要加入CPTPP，要從早前的開發中國家變成已開發國家，你們從紐西蘭進口鮮乳，因為我之前有處理過這個問題，所以我知道，現在零關稅之後，一個鮮乳就搞到讓臺灣整個鮮乳業變動那麼大。現在從紐西蘭進口鮮乳，還有其他國家也有很多鮮乳，我們加入CPTPP後，要用最高的水準，跟日本、新加坡、美國、加拿大一樣，全面開放農產品進口，你要如何應用啊？"],["陳部長駿季：我向委員報告，加入CPTPP以後其實有個非常大的挑戰，就是關稅的問題。"],["陳委員超明：對，沒有錯。"],["陳部長駿季：關稅的問題上，有立即降稅的，也有一些是在某時間點降稅的，雖然以CPTPP，現在平均關稅率大概是96%，但是也有一些國家是例外的，它的關稅不一定都是零關稅，像日本就是百分之七十幾而已。"],["陳委員超明：現在這個是前哨戰，讓你鍛練身體用的，包括物流、包括這些都好，你要班班有鮮乳，我再教你一個絕招，你不要只靠統一，像黑松哪裡都有經銷商，只要它有冷凍庫，你再補一點錢把它送到學校，每一個負責幾個轄區，一下子就解決了，不要死守那幾個據點，只要有錢就可以推動，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，我感謝……"],["陳委員超明：你一直點頭，我都在想這個問題，哪有什麼困難？"],["陳部長駿季：我感謝委員的建議，我們下一次對學校學童鮮乳的時候，會有更好、更精進的方式。兩個原則……"],["陳委員超明：日本有一種小罐的飲料，叫養樂多，它的經銷商那麼多，也有冷凍庫，你叫它送一些給學校去分就好了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。委員，我跟你報告，未來我們在推動學童乳的部分有兩個原則，第一個原則就是不會再對學校的老師造成任何負擔，學校老師這學期的協助我們非常感謝；第二個部分，我們也不會讓縣市政府有不同的意見，我想我們會去協調。"],["陳委員超明：因為是農會科員出身，我是教你可以想出很多辦法解決這些問題，多用腦筋好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員超明：多用民間的力量。"],["陳部長駿季：感謝。"],["陳委員超明：再來，你這個科技發展只有50億，我看了一些資料，包括今天、昨天的報紙說農業科技，我們的種苗、育苗各方面就跟晶片一樣。我是常常在看，覺得你們的科專計畫錢比較少，你要把農業做好，我們就要像晶片一樣，要有很好的品種、很好的育種出來，這個之前我也跟你們講過，你們的科研計畫裡面，如果有好的、新的產品……","時間怎麼這麼快，我問題還沒問呢！","我常常在看，你們都說臺灣的農業很偉大，臺灣有新的產品，但我卻不知道有幾項新的產品。為什麼我會提這些問題呢？我大概有5本雜誌一定要看，包括「豐年」、「農政與農情」還有「茶情雙月刊」，這些是愈看愈增長知識，你們有這麼好的研發，就應該出書讓我們瞭解。這裡有很多立委住在都市，不像我住在鄉下，因為我一直在看有沒有新的東西，譬如把烏殼綠竹筍種在海邊，整個景觀就不一樣，而且價值又高，但你們只用嘴講，也沒拿出一些資料來展現你們科技的研發成果。你們要像工研院，你們農業試驗所、林業試驗所、水產試驗所那麼多，我就不知道你們在做什麼啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這點我們也在檢討，臺灣90%以上的研發成果都是我們試驗單位提供的，可是他們的宣導，我是覺得沒有一些系統性的宣導讓農民知道，這個部分我想我們會來努力，由科技司來主責。"],["陳委員超明：部長，這本「豐年」我覺得寫得很好，我從看到這本雜誌以後，就把以前的也買了，我的書櫃裡面只有把這套「豐年」雜誌……"],["陳部長駿季：我們每一期都可以送給委員看。"],["陳委員超明：我看每一期，因為看了可以帶動很多新知，就算是吹牛也有本錢。我跟你說這是實際的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["陳委員超明：再來，有個問題比較嚴重，我們的農業金庫董事長有沒有來？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們農金署的署長有來。"],["陳委員超明：好。講到這個問題就很敏感，你們進口蛋的時候就是超思，你們的農業金庫總共借給中央畜產會15億……"],["陳部長駿季：5億是豬肉，10億是……"],["陳委員超明：不管多少錢，你先聽我講，不要急於辯白，7.5億有擔保，7.5億沒有擔保，對於沒有擔保就讓錢這樣出去，你們都沒人講話嗎？還是說這是公家對公家，公家好辦事情，隨便通融都可以？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我跟委員報告，農業金庫的融資貸款一定合於相關規定，擔保的部分會由農信保來擔保。"],["陳委員超明：報告主席，延長2分鐘，拜託一下。"],["主席：那就1分半。"],["陳委員超明：不是1分半，要再多1分鐘。我現在跟你請教，農業金庫股權，泛公股占41.62%，其中農業部占37.59%，農業信保基金是4.03%，加起來就是41.62%，而泛農漁會體系占58.33%，但現在農業金庫的5席獨立董事都由你們農業部指派。"],["陳部長駿季：是我們推薦。"],["陳委員超明：這個當然是法規的問題，就跟現在的統籌分配款一樣，誰當家、誰當權，又有錢又有權，什麼都不想放，但是你是學者出身，我覺得農業金庫的獨立董事也要尊重民間的股份。你知道嗎，現在公司法跟證券交易法有規定，股票超過1%就有資格推薦獨立董事，現在泛民股占58%，卻沒有一點推薦的權利？我曉得這有時代的背景，就看你有沒有大作為，泛農漁會體系占58%，好歹也要讓個兩、三席給人家，才有監督的作用。"],["陳部長駿季：因為時間的關係，我跟委員報告，我們會後是不是再跟委員作充分地說明？"],["陳委員超明：好，這點要改進一下，學者出身的，要有社會公平的觀念。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會跟委員作充分地說明。"],["陳委員超明：主席，不是說要給我2分鐘嗎？你怎麼站起來了？不是要給我嗎？"],["主席：過了2分鐘。"],["陳委員超明：你一曉得我要問這樣敏感的問題，你就跳出來了。"],["主席：這個問題我也想瞭解，也一起來跟我講一下，這個問題很重要，我也想瞭解。"],["陳委員超明：你也想問啊！那我問短一點，你要繼續問、繼續追，謝謝。"],["主席：好，繼續關心。謝謝陳超明委員，部長請回座。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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這個喔 因為我是蠻悲觀的啦如果按照這個國民黨這樣子要強推上次三分鐘就出去未來在朝野協商大概也不會就是說這個就算財政部有自己的版本或是說有自己的一些建議跟想法我覺得在朝野協商大概也會被擰壓過去啦但是我是認為說你們該要去"},{"start":364.503,"end":368.842,"text":"這個距離力真的還是要想辦法讓社會各界來知道"},{"start":369.946,"end":394.214,"text":"那這個我再請教一下這個之前齁這個也很多委員在問你們這個雲端種樹去的這個抽獎活動那我先問一下3個禮拜你們有一個檢討報告出來齁那檢討報告出來就是說你們說這個是跟廠商或是跟財政部內部的員工都沒有關係但是有一個抽獎資格的限定這個會有點問題"},{"start":395.914,"end":423.695,"text":"就是說呢 這個廠商的抽獎的程式調高了參與者的重簽權重給予優先抽獎的機會那這個廠商是可以自己去調這個優先這個抽獎的機會給予他重簽的權重嗎這個是你們的規定呢還是廠商自己去做處理的那因為這樣子處理是不是也讓這一個最後那四會得獎的機會大大的增加"},{"start":425.438,"end":453.64,"text":"委員報告我們的報告裡面有提到也就是說廠商在城市設計上他的邏輯其實是不是要已經跟我們原來要希望達到的一個目的已經偏離了所以這個部分呢我們也請調查局再調查有沒有相關不法的一個情勢那所以說這個是他自己設計的對跟你們沒有關係他也沒有來跟我們的主辦機關來做報告那他為什麼要做這樣的設計他有跟你們說明嗎"},{"start":455.682,"end":476.936,"text":"呃在事前也沒說明啊沒有我說事後之後你們在做調查的時候行政報告這部分的話為什麼會有這樣的設計欸報告委員事後他來說明的時候他是說希望能夠很快抽出來因為這個要現場直播開講我想這個部分的設計啊我們應該會進一步的再來去做相關的追究"},{"start":477.315,"end":485.023,"text":"不是啊,這個齁,不是什麼很快抽出來,我意思是說你們行政報告出來,你們認為是說跟你們內部的人跟廠商是沒有關係的。"},{"start":486.747,"end":516.067,"text":"我們第一個要確認就是說重複中獎從大獎的這四位要先釐清是不是我們內部的人跟廠商的相關的本人配偶及三星那但是這部分有沒有問題這個部分我們查出來是沒有都沒有都沒有說廠商去調高權重的調高權重這個部分跟我們原來就是說我們有抽獎有這個目的就譬如說我們希望你用載具用財政部的APP或者是說你要用我們的那個調查報告哪時候可以出來"},{"start":516.887,"end":530.795,"text":"調查報告這個部分我們的行政調查部分已經出來但是調查局的那個調查結果到這個時間我們沒有辦法確定但是我們還是會對這個案子我們要會做全盤的檢討以及要做未來一定要做更好的改善"},{"start":531.893,"end":556.174,"text":"這家大家現在還在質疑認為說你們還是沒有給出一個很完整的一個說明這個財政部其實這個抽獎然後是這個辦活動尤其是統一發票不應該受到質疑這個你們要做很大的一個檢討那請問一下因為明年統一發票的經費你們有增加增加了187億左右那現在我問一下你們這個雲端發票"},{"start":559.373,"end":561.656,"text":"每一次每兩個月嗎?還是每個月?每兩個月開獎一次開獎的你說這個500塊現在是幾組啊?"},{"start":569.082,"end":577.947,"text":"5百塊是多少?幾百萬組?因為那個是...我看你們最新知道245萬組這個是這個是兩個月的嗎?還是全年的啊?245萬組這個是全年的嗎?不是一期一期的吧一期的嗎?一期一期一期一期中獎的5百塊有245萬組那你們明年規劃勒?因為你們這個那個經費有提高啦統一發報告經費"},{"start":596.898,"end":606.912,"text":"給獎的獎金有提高啦那所以明年會提高到幾組勒?雲端發票部分我們會再算然後等經費過就是說預算通過以後預算通過之後會增加到幾組這怎麼會算不出來勒?"},{"start":612.303,"end":612.323,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":629.896,"end":650.875,"text":"不會低於這個當然是不會低於啊你們自己編的預算都增加啦當然是不會低於啊好我們再來計算一下不是啊大概是多少啊會多少到300萬組要看經費的結果這樣經費就是有給你們你們自己就已經增加了啊"},{"start":651.977,"end":673.165,"text":"怎麼會算不出來勒那我們會委員我們這個部分第一個會不低於現在的這個組數然後按照不低於這廢話啊對好我們再算一下以後跟委員報告不是啊那大概是幾組勒300萬組沒有一下增加這個為什麼會算不出來好我們再算一下我問題是為什麼這個會算不出來"},{"start":682.668,"end":701.995,"text":"委員我跟您報告因為我們通常都要去算一下今年的對齡率因為我們是一個經驗法則簡單講雖然我開舉個例子我開250萬組這種獎人有多少人但不一定每個人都會來領獎那我們都會去算過去那一般的領獎比例大概是多少"},{"start":702.335,"end":702.575,"text":"預算提案"},{"start":719.22,"end":744.682,"text":"總會算不出來說明年會增加多少萬組我們為了要嚴謹起見我們算好之後我們都會召開記者會然後會對外說明要用公開說明那這個就是一個承諾了所以我們會比較嚴謹啦那大家估啊估不出來有許因為我現在手上沒有數字那今天會談你們的預算啊怎麼會手上沒有這個數字呢今天是會談你們的預算"},{"start":745.489,"end":754.152,"text":"啊沒有現在是只是答詢而已我當然知道啦我願意我可以我們回去以後如果順利通過我們"},{"start":771.724,"end":772.845,"text":"陳玉珍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時38分）謝謝主席，我們請莊部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["李委員坤城：部長好！請教一下，這兩天我有看到新聞上面寫，國民黨財劃法的版本鬧雙胞！就是國民黨內部對於財劃法修法也有不同的意見，有國民黨黨團的人表示，黨團幹部又有一個共識，就是未來財劃法修法的時候，他們的版本本來是要挖走六千多億，現在國民黨智庫又提出來要挖走三千多億的版本，將以修正動議的方式提出來，而且會拿掉首都稅3%，不曉得部長有沒有得到類似的訊息？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們並沒有看到這個修正的部分，之前只是在媒體有看到。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！你看國民黨最後強行通過的版本大概是挖了6,612億，現在國民黨內部又有不同的意見，不曉得是不是有一些要選縣市首長的人良心發現，還是怎麼樣，不知道，所以他們新的意見第一個是拿掉首都稅3%；第二個，他們說過去臺灣省政府的財源如果回歸給地方的話，換算下來大概也是3,200億左右，那部長怎麼看？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們財劃法的部分除了您剛剛講的垂直分配之外，也就是中央釋出多少錢。第二個是水平分配，水平分配裡面很重要的用意就是要調劑盈虛以及均衡地方的發展，因為每個地方的稅收狀況不一樣，有十幾個縣市不管是地方稅或中央稅，它所收取的部分都不夠歲出，所以這個需要靠水平分配做調劑盈虛，讓各個縣市裡面的國民都可以享受相同水平的公共服務，這個一定要做。"],["李委員坤城：這個我知道，現在看來就是國民黨內部也有不同的意見，有六千多億、有三千多億的部分……"],["莊部長翠雲：在水平分配的部分，目前送出財委會的黨團版分配模式就是如您畫面上的圖示。"],["李委員坤城：這個是財政部臉書上面的資訊，就是國民黨版本在水平分配的問題，第一個，說3%要給臺北市，這是獨厚特定的地方政府；第二個，它有67%是按照人口數比例分配，所以對於人口較少的地方相對不利，擴大城鄉的差距。我想請教一下部長，如果按照國民黨的這個版本，水平分配的問題是不是就像您所講的這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們根據這樣的黨團版本所訂出來的水平分配也去做過試算，確實讓人口多的縣市取得相對相當大的金額，因為它占了67%，就排擠到其他的分配，對有些地方政府事實上是會造成一些不公的，尤其是會造成城鄉差距，人口多的地方會越吸引越多，因為它拿最多，所以它能夠做其他建設，人就一直往那邊移動，其實對城鄉的均衡發展並不是很好。"],["李委員坤城：現在已經被送出委員會了，接下來是朝野協商，在朝野協商時財政部要怎麼去因應？"],["莊部長翠雲：財劃法的修正是一個非常重大的法案修正，應該要審慎的規劃，首先是垂直分配的部分，我想在公聽會裡面許多學者們都已經提出來，錢跟權要同時均衡考量，也就是說你必須要事權先劃分清楚，然後再考慮支出，支出確認以後才有所謂的收入怎麼樣分配，但是如果只考量把錢做怎樣的挪移，而沒有考慮事權分配的話，其實第一個在垂直分配上就已經失衡了。","第二個水平分配的部分，我們一再談到必須要做到調劑盈虛，均衡區域的發展，所以這個部分我們認為這個議題要……"],["李委員坤城：這個我知道，我們一直在講事跟錢要一起來談，但是現在如果國民黨硬要推，不管是六千多億還是三千多億，財政部自己有沒有因應的版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個要審慎的規劃，其實財政部之前已經開過兩次會，召集地方政府來開會，對於指標的部分我們一直努力請各地方政府表達意見，我們希望能夠縮小歧見，凝聚最大的共識，在水平分配的部分先把它安排好，如果事權要重新調整的話，要考慮支出面，然後才會考慮到收入面要怎樣分配，我覺得這個部分必須要審慎的規劃。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！所以我就在問部長，萬一按照這個版本下去推的話，那麼行政院、財政部也要有準備啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，我們一定會去做詳細的說明。"],["李委員坤城：我是蠻悲觀的，如果按照國民黨這樣子要強推，上次三分鐘就送出去，未來在朝野協商就算財政部有自己的版本，或是有自己的一些建議跟想法，我覺得在朝野協商大概也會被輾壓過去啦！但是我認為你們該要據理力爭的還是要想辦法讓社會各界知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：會，詳細的我們……"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下，之前也有很多委員在問這個「雲端種樹趣」的抽獎活動，上個禮拜你們有一個檢討報告出來，你們說這個跟廠商或是跟財政部內部的員工都沒有關係，但是有一個抽獎資格的設定會有點問題，廠商的抽獎程式調高了參與者的中籤權重，給予優先抽獎的機會，廠商可以自己去調優先抽獎的機會，給予其中籤的權重嗎？這個是你們的規定，還是廠商自己去做處理的？因為這樣子處理，是不是也讓最後那四位得獎的機會大大的增加？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的報告裡面有提到，廠商在程式設計上的邏輯是不是已經跟我們原來希望達到的目的有所偏離，這個部分我們也請調查局在調查有沒有相關不法的情事。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個是它自己設計的，跟你們沒有關係？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，它也沒有來跟我們的主辦機關報告。"],["李委員坤城：它有跟你們說明它為什麼要做這樣的設計嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：在事前也沒說明。"],["李委員坤城：我是說事後，事後你們在做行政報告調查的時候，它有沒有說明為什麼會有這樣的設計呢？"],["吳局長蓮英：報告委員，事後它來說明的時候是說希望能夠很快抽出來，因為這個要現場直播開獎。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分的設計我們應該會進一步再來做相關的追究。"],["李委員坤城：不是啦！這個不是什麼很快抽出來，我的意思是說，你們的行政報告出來，你們認為跟你們內部的人、跟廠商是沒有關係的。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們第一個要先確認、釐清重複中大獎的這四位是不是我們內部的人或跟廠商相關的本人、配偶及三親等……"],["李委員坤城：這部分有沒有問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們查出來是沒有，都沒有。"],["李委員坤城：我是說廠商去調高權重的這個部分。"],["莊部長翠雲：調高權重這個部分跟我們原來抽獎的目的，譬如說我們希望你用載具、用財政部的app，或者是你要用我們的帳號等等……"],["李委員坤城：調查報告什麼時候可以出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的行政調查部分已經出來，但是調查局的調查結果，這個時間我們沒有辦法確定，但是我們還是會對這個案子做全盤的檢討，以及未來一定要做更好的改善。"],["李委員坤城：大家現在還在質疑，認為你們還是沒有給出一個很完整的說明，財政部辦活動、抽獎，尤其是統一發票，不應該受到質疑，這個你們要做很大的檢討。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，一定要做檢討。"],["李委員坤城：因為明年統一發票的經費你們有增加，增加了187億左右，請問一下，雲端發票每兩個月開獎一次，你們現在500塊的獎項是幾組？"],["莊部長翠雲：500塊是幾百萬組，因為那個是雲端發票專屬獎項。"],["李委員坤城：我看你們最新的數據是245萬組，是不是？這個是兩個月的嗎？還是全年的？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，245萬組。"],["李委員坤城：這個是全年的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，一期的吧！"],["李委員坤城：一期的嗎？一期中獎500塊的有245萬組？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員坤城：那你們明年的規劃呢？因為你們統一發票的經費裡給獎的獎金有提高，所以明年雲端發票的部分會提高到幾組呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會再算，等預算通過以後……"],["李委員坤城：預算通過之後會增加到幾組，這怎麼會算不出來呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：其實會增加的話，有時候到下半年也會持續增加，因為要看上半年的兌獎情形。"],["李委員坤城：你們增加50萬組了，現在是245萬組。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["李委員坤城：那我是問，你們給獎的經費增加啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會低於現在的組數。"],["李委員坤城：當然是不會低於啊！你們自己編的預算都增加了，當然是不會低於啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再來計算一下，再向委員報告。"],["李委員坤城：不是，大概是多少，會到300萬組嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：要看經費審查的結果。"],["李委員坤城：經費你們自己就已經增加了啊！怎麼會算不出來呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，第一個，會不低於現在的組數。"],["李委員坤城：這廢話啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再算一下以後跟委員報告。"],["李委員坤城：不是啊，那大概是幾組呢？300萬組？"],["莊部長翠雲：一下增加……"],["李委員坤城：這個為什麼會算不出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再算一下。"],["李委員坤城：我的問題是，為什麼這個會算不出來？署長。"],["宋署長秀玲：不好意思，跟委員報告，通常我們都要算一下今年的兌領率，因為這是一個經驗法則，簡單舉個例子來講，我開250萬組，中獎人有多少人，但不一定每個人都會來領獎，那我們會去算過去……"],["李委員坤城：一般的領獎比率大概多少？"],["宋署長秀玲：要看，如果是雲端發票，兌領率就很高，我們這幾年……"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：如果是紙本發票……"],["李委員坤城：雲端發票會直接通知啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：如果有下載app，它會直接……"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我的意思是說……"],["宋署長秀玲：但有一些……"],["李委員坤城：但這個怎麼會算不出來明年會增加多少萬組？"],["宋署長秀玲：會，會，但為了嚴謹起見，我們算好之後，會召開記者會對外說明，這要公開說明，而這就會是一個承諾，所以我們會比較嚴謹。"],["李委員坤城：大家估一估啊！估不出來？"],["宋署長秀玲：委員是不是容許……因為我現在手上沒有數字。"],["李委員坤城：今天排審你們的預算，怎麼會手上沒有這個數字？今天是不是要談你們的預算？"],["宋署長秀玲：沒有，現在就只是詢答而已。"],["李委員坤城：我當然知道啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：委員我可以……我們回去以後，如果順利通過，我們……"],["李委員坤城：好啦！那你們多久時間可以算出來？"],["宋署長秀玲：這樣好不好，一個月？"],["李委員坤城：一個月？"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，不要最後我又是看到記者會才知道。好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（李委員彥秀代）：謝謝，我們結束李坤城委員的質詢。","接下來請陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"157007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87422a26a49760153e06883678c1ed2d0dc5cdff58eca86e5d4c7f6e4539bc04505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:26:35 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說明為什麼會越查越少用什麼方法可以確實查核這些防止逃漏稅的情況"},{"start":199.301,"end":216.896,"text":"報告委員我們目前對於這種所謂的朱黑市我們大概或黑數大概有兩個方法一個叫羅波一個叫棒子那所謂的羅波就是像剛才委員關心的不管是公益出租人就拿租金補貼我們稱為公益出租人或是社會住宅的房東"},{"start":217.957,"end":235.856,"text":"在目前的住宅法都有給他一些租稅優惠每月譬如1萬5以下是可以免稅的那他的費用率尤其社宅部分他費用率可以提高到60%所以事實上以我們現在的這種修正後的住宅法對於我們的愛心房東統稱愛心房東這樣的稅負是非常輕的"},{"start":239.56,"end":261.932,"text":"所以不會妨礙我們現在的房客去申報所謂的申請租金補貼或申報所謂租金支出扣除那另外呢我們對於不符合這個條件的可能有些房東他還是惡意的想要去規避稅賦那我們就有所謂的棒子就是委員所看到的其實委員看到的有些是叫專案查核"},{"start":262.332,"end":281.505,"text":"中央查核就是我們會挑多組別5戶以上10戶以上我們特別去看他的申報情形讓他申報不理想就是不如實的我們就會去加強查核另外我們有例行性查核所以委員看到的可能看到的是比較專案的部分例行性查核我們也沒落下"},{"start":282.225,"end":307.083,"text":"另外我們從今年7月1號開始實施的叫房屋稅差別稅率2.0我們特別加重對於多屋而且是空閒置業我們是加重課稅當然對於一種房屋所有人我們是特別減稅就是他有出租他願意出租才申報達租金標準我們不僅不加稅還減稅那這一部分都是我們目前在努力的方向所以我們現在是蘿蔔棒子都有"},{"start":307.363,"end":326.032,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":326.132,"end":343.385,"text":"我這邊有張表格幫你們整理了一張表格其中還有執行率只有1.79%只有1.79%那這張圖表是到112年底其中這個理由很多就是說工程多次的流標物價"},{"start":345.306,"end":348.489,"text":"臺北國稅局總預算案有關財政部賦稅署．立法院第11屆第2會期財政部賦稅署．"},{"start":363.763,"end":379.049,"text":"能夠要明白就是說要隨時注意計劃有沒有落後那這個每個環節都要做一個評估作業如果發生延宕應該要抓緊腳步去解決問題那回歸正軌不然的話民眾會認為說你是在浪費錢那這個1%的1.79%還有最高24.48%這個部分這些執行率慘不能賭啊所以署長你有什麼要說的"},{"start":392.973,"end":401,"text":"報告委員因為農族集團所這案子我們很清楚因為我們主要是碰到很多問題那今年已經（很多問題（對今年已經（這個禮拜可以開工對他已經這個"},{"start":408.266,"end":429.742,"text":"今年已經標出去了然後呢這個禮拜就已經要開工了就要開工那基本上如果他沒有真的興建那經費其實就是沒有支用所以才會造成看起來支出率比較低一點但我們也很希望有自由的辦公天社所以我們北區國局這邊也非常努力的去辦理相關的事項"},{"start":431.223,"end":451.05,"text":"好就是要求一定要檢討好不好是那再來就是討論雲端發票的問題那我們剛剛也提到其他我們很多委員都非常的關心這項計畫的一個量化成績績效那我有看到一個目標值是由115年的57%逐年調升到118年的60%"},{"start":456.032,"end":460.815,"text":"本期從預算中心看到報告113年今年的7月實際已經達到了58.63%已經超過58%距離118年的60%"},{"start":468.055,"end":487.01,"text":"只相差只有1.37那從現在到118年還有4年的時間那60%的目標是不是太輕鬆了那設定這個目標值就沒有挑戰性了所以組長你認不認同說雲端發票使用率的目標應該往上提升"},{"start":488.331,"end":515.523,"text":"委員我們這個是之前就訂的那訂的時候我們會橫著當時的狀況那事實上我們如果能努力像我們現在辦很多出稅宣導活動甚至去輔導業人改用所謂的改變他的pose機啊讓我們能夠用雲端發票就是讓民眾可以索取雲端發票所以才會造成現在的成果在113年我們就已經將近50%因為看這個趨勢你就可以抵掃打票嘛我們會滾動我們會滾動檢討可以抵掃打票當然是好事"},{"start":515.823,"end":520.005,"text":"提高目標的設定可不可以?是,我們會努力,一定會努力。好,謝謝,謝謝宋主席。我有請關務署彭署長。"},{"start":549.865,"end":571.171,"text":"委員好蘇長好上星期一是雙十一購物節我們知道很多商家都提供了很多的優惠跟折扣民眾也想藉這個機會一次的買齊很多包裹都是從國外入境台灣當然一定會有不法人士也要藉這個包裹大量輸入的機會想要"},{"start":572.031,"end":591.922,"text":"偷渡非法物品來到臺灣我們要防止這些不肖人士的一個投機違法同時會實施的這些檢驗檢疫或者是低報貨物價格來逃漏這些稅費的部分甚至於是這個夾帶槍毒等這些危險物品企圖闖關的"},{"start":593.983,"end":606.299,"text":"海關持續加強各項的查緝作為防止走私逃漏當然這裡面毒品棄貨案這個案例毒品棄貨收集不易AI訓練的資料不足"},{"start":608.982,"end":636.812,"text":"那所以這個毒品尤其是新樣態的一個走私的樣態非常的多那走私的方法也都推陳出新所以我知道你們的計畫你們規劃這個次世代人工智慧輔助棄屍計畫導入生成式的AI強化人工智慧這些種種那編列的預算110年度編列了6472萬要增加這種棄屍能力但是我想要問的就是說"},{"start":639.504,"end":656.4,"text":"這些計畫將結合氣貨案例影像、樣品、毒品樣本的模擬還有相近原子序列的樣本影像來進行深層式的AI學習但是我們要了解現有的氣貨案例是不是足夠"},{"start":658.237,"end":658.257,"text":"僅詢答．"},{"start":675.478,"end":702.809,"text":"我們會擔憂的就是說這樣子的訓練的一個訓練值能不能相信時間不夠啦所以請這個署長說明一下11月委員這方面的一個提醒那的確就是說運用這個AI第一個一定要資料量要非常一個大所以對於資料量我們都有用生存式的AI或者是用我們查緝的或者是跟友軍比如說警政署這邊來聯繫來提供更多的一個數量"},{"start":704.95,"end":705.771,"text":"李坤誠委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":561,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時26分）主席、各位列席官員，大家好。主席，有請賦稅署宋署長。"],["主席：宋署長。"],["宋署長秀玲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：署長好。租屋黑市一直是我們頭痛的問題，許多得以申請租屋補貼的租屋族，因為害怕房東被查出出租非自用住宅，甚至怕房東不讓房客申請租屋補助，否則就以調高房租來做威脅。依所得稅法規定，非自用住宅若供出租使用，除非確定是無償或非營業使用之外，應該按照當地的租屋情況計入租賃所得，然後併入個人綜合所得來繳稅。五區國稅局的業務重點在於查核個人非自用房屋使用及租賃情形，列為各年度的稽核重點，以防止短報、漏報租賃的這種情況。我們從數據上可以看到，國稅局越查越少，讓這些逃漏稅的人持續逍遙法外。111年度除了高雄跟中區國稅局查核比例略較109年度、110年度提升之外，其餘三區國稅局的查核比例均為四年的新低，再從其補稅件數比例來看，各區都落在兩成以上，111年度五區國稅局合計收入補稅金額8.41億元，在補稅件數比例、補稅金額均不低的情況下，這樣的數據告訴我們，逃漏報租賃所得還是一大堆。賴總統的政見強調要落實居住正義，但是逃漏稅的還是很多，能不能請署長告訴我，到底要用什麼樣的方式，才能把這些逃漏稅、不願意讓租客申請租屋補貼的人找出來、抓出來？","我還要跟署長強調的是，因為要逃漏稅而不願意讓租客進行租屋補助的案例滿街都是，在這種情況之下，民眾一點都感受不到政府落實居住正義的決心，租屋族就算知道房東逃漏稅，他自己符合資格來申請租屋補助，坦白說，大多數的人都不願意去檢舉房東，因為怕如果得罪房東，後面的結果第一個就是漲房租，不然就是直接被趕出去。我想國稅局也編列很多預算在這方面，希望這些錢千萬不要浪費，一定要落實稽查，然後找出這些逃漏稅的人，落實居住正義。請署長來說明第一個，為什麼會越查越少？用什麼方法可以確實查核、防止逃漏稅的情況？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，對於所謂的租屋黑市或黑數，目前我們大概有兩個方法，一個叫蘿蔔，一個叫棒子。所謂的蘿蔔，就是像剛才委員關心的，不管是公益出租人，就是出租給拿租金補貼的，我們稱為公益出租人，或是社會住宅的房東，在目前的住宅法，都有給他一些租稅優惠，譬如每月1萬5,000元以下是可以免稅的，他的費用率，尤其社宅部分，可以提高到60%，所以以現在修正後的住宅法，對於我們所統稱的愛心房東而言，現在的稅負是非常輕的，並不會妨礙房客去申請所謂的租金補貼或申報所謂的租金支出扣除。","另外，對於不符合這個條件的，有些房東可能是惡意的想要去規避稅負，我們就有所謂的棒子，就是委員所看到的，有些是叫專案查核，專案查核就是我們會挑多屋主，譬如5戶以上、10戶以上，特別去看他的申報情形，如果他申報不理想，也就是不如實申報的，我們就會去加強查核，我們還有例行性查核，委員看到的可能是比較專案的部分，例行性查核我們也沒落下。","另外，從今年7月1日開始實施的房屋稅差別稅率2.0，對於多屋，而且是空閒置，我們特別加重課稅，但對一種房屋所有人，我們是特別減稅，就是他有出租，只要申報達租金標準，不僅不加稅，反而還減稅，這一部分都是我們目前在努力的方向，所以我們現在是蘿蔔、棒子都有。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，署長，惡意房東的部分一定要嚴加查實。"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。再來要跟你們討論的就是你們的工程計畫，不看還好，一看不得了！因為你們每年編列一大筆的預算經費，但是執行率那麼低。我幫你們整理了一張表格，其中還有執行率只有1.79%的！這張圖表是到112年底。其中理由很多，包括工程多次流標、物價漲幅，原編列物調經費不足，還有天候、疫情、工人不足等因素的影響，理由一大堆，計畫一再的延宕，物價持續的上漲，浪費的都是民脂民膏，希望賦稅署能夠明白，要隨時注意計畫有沒有落後……"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：每個環節都要做一個評估作業，如果發生延宕，應該要抓緊腳步去解決問題、回歸正軌……"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：不然的話，民眾會認為你是在浪費錢，對不對？最低是1.79%，最高也只有24.48%，這些執行率慘不忍睹！署長，你有什麼要說的？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，蘆竹稽徵所這個案子我們很清楚，主要是我們碰到很多問題，但今年已經都……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，就是很多問題、很多理由嘛！"],["宋署長秀玲：今年這個案子已經標出去了，這個禮拜就要開工了，基本上，如果它沒有真的興建，經費就是沒有支用，才會造成看起來執行率比較低一點，但我們也很希望有自有的辦公廳舍，所以我們北區國稅局也非常努力的去辦理相關的事項。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，我就是要求一定要檢討，好不好？"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：再來就是討論雲端發票的問題，我們剛剛有提到，很多委員都非常的關心這項計畫的量化績效，其中我有看到一個目標值，是由115年的57%逐年調升到118年的60%，但是本席從預算中心的報告看到，113年（今年）7月實際已經達到了58.63%，已經超過58%，與118年的60%相差只有1.37%，從現在到118年還有4年的時間，60%的目標是不是太輕鬆了？設定這個目標值就沒有挑戰性啦！署長，所以你認不認同雲端發票使用率的目標應該往上提升到60%以上。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，這個是之前就訂的，訂的時候，我們會衡酌當時的狀況，事實上，我們都很努力，像我們現在辦很多租稅宣導活動，甚至去輔導營業人改變POS機，改用雲端發票，就是讓民眾可以索取雲端發票，所以才會有現在的成果，在113年我們就已經將近59%了……"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，因為看這個趨勢，你就可以提早達標……"],["宋署長秀玲：我們會滾動檢討……"],["顏委員寬恒：可以提早達標當然是好事……"],["宋署長秀玲：是、是、是。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我們就說我們的腳步已經走在……"],["宋署長秀玲：我們一定……"],["顏委員寬恒：已經趕上來，我們應該好還要更好，是不是？"],["宋署長秀玲：是、是。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以不要看到剩下這1.37%的差距……"],["宋署長秀玲：不會、不會、不會。"],["顏委員寬恒：離目標還有4年的時間，整個就慢下來，對不對？"],["宋署長秀玲：是、是、是。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們儘量把它做好，提高目標的設定，可不可以？"],["宋署長秀玲：是，我們會努力，一定會努力。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝宋署長。我有請關務署彭署長。"],["彭署長英偉：委員好！"],["顏委員寬恒：署長好！上星期一是雙11購物節，我們知道，很多商家都提供了很多的優惠及折扣，民眾也想藉這個機會一次買齊，很多包裹都是從國外入境臺灣，當然一定會有不法人士也想要藉這個包裹大量輸入的機會偷渡非法物品來到臺灣。為防止這些不肖人士投機違法輸入應實施檢驗（疫）商品，或者是低報貨物價格逃漏稅費，甚至於夾帶槍毒等危險物品企圖闖關，海關持續加強各項查緝作為，防止走私逃漏。","當然毒品緝獲案例蒐集不易，AI訓練資料不足，尤其新樣態毒品的走私非常多，走私的方法也都推陳出新，我知道你們規劃次世代人工智慧輔助緝私計畫，導入生成式AI，強化人工智慧，這些種種編列了預算，114年度編列6,472萬，要增加這種緝私能力，這些計畫將結合緝獲案例影像、毒品樣本的模擬，還有相近原子序類的樣本影像，來進行生成式AI學習，但是我們要瞭解的就是現有的緝獲案例是不是足夠？它有一個關鍵就是生成的影像是否真的具備訓練價值……"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：如果樣品來源不足，即使導入生成式AI，我們會擔憂未來這樣子的訓練值能不能相信？時間不夠，請署長簡單說明一下。"],["彭署長英偉：謝謝委員這方面的提醒，的確如果要運用AI，第一個，資料量一定要非常大，所以對於資料量，我們都有用生成式AI，或者是用我們查緝的，或者是跟友軍（比如警政署）聯繫，提供更多的數量，讓我們的AI更加精進……"],["顏委員寬恒：重點就是如何確保生成的樣態影像是真實可靠的，這個部分就是我們要追求的。"],["彭署長英偉：是，我們會有資深官員來審核。"],["顏委員寬恒：署長加油。"],["彭署長英偉：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員。接著請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"157005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87f2a516292a495846117a57b012903f1cc5cdff58eca86e5d729861a5771213c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:38:54 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黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":55.146,"end":56.467,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ委員黃健豪等17人、 ﻏ"},{"start":75.763,"end":99.847,"text":"當然就是也牽涉到警政署還有我們交通部都要一起來合作那就我們交通部的部分我們對於偽造車牌這樣子的一個狀況我們目前的一個防範措施是什麼是不是可以請部長先講一下報告委員我們第一個措施是針對源頭管制的部分我們請財政部包含在海關的部分來協助我們然後還有就是網路的部分讓民眾不容易取得"},{"start":100.507,"end":116.303,"text":"這樣子的偽造車牌因為大家都知道說現在數位平台發達很多人的那個偽造車牌都是從網路上面所以我們也請速發部有在協助我們在做下架的部分那這個部分當然我們自己公路局每一天都在網路上面巡查每一天都巡查"},{"start":117.083,"end":135.025,"text":"審查到的時候有那個網路的程式機器人程式在巡查巡查到馬上就會送警政機關那移送警政機關以外我們也請抒發部來協助那是源頭的部分那另外跨機關的查緝我們也跟警政署大家聯手在做查緝包含高工局包含公路局"},{"start":135.486,"end":154.088,"text":"二、審判警政署的部分我們大家配合在查緝第三個部分是針對罰則的加重我們現在正在努力當中我們大概這一兩天就會送到行政院把我們的版本送到行政院之後行政院大概在一個月之內我們希望在這個會期能夠完成整個罰則加重的修法程序"},{"start":154.707,"end":174.826,"text":"是,剛剛部長有提到就是源頭的管理所以剛剛您講的那個都是就是相關的一個措施那其中還有一個就是防偽的一個設計這部分我在上一次就是其實好像在上個月也有質詢這個議題那時候應該公路局有回覆說我們就是會有一些防偽的一個技術"},{"start":177.148,"end":198.561,"text":"來防治這個不法集團的一個偽造、變造這個車牌。那我們也看到最近的新聞就這個月初就我們就看到了說我們查獲的這個車牌已經出現了說這個不法集團他們也可以偽造這個梅花烙印甚至是這個車牌背面的防偽雷雕的車號"},{"start":199.722,"end":206.374,"text":"所以他們的技術也是一直在升級耶所以我們的這樣的防偽的技術好像快跟不上了"},{"start":206.954,"end":235.192,"text":"當然他們防偽技術在升級我們的防偽技術也要升級所以請局長我們有什麼樣的升級措施各位報告我們現在其實這一個車牌的方位其實是多道的其實它有好幾種包括字體包括材質包括厚薄包括雷射包括前後面所以其實有好幾道其實就是說這個不法集團其實這一個偽造的這個部分其實我們還是可以辨別出來是真或假"},{"start":235.912,"end":260.784,"text":"當然就是說因為有一些的這個真偽的部分它其實是比較細所以就是說有些還要用一些設備所以我們大概在明年度包括檢證署也有給我們一些建議我們會再召集相關機關對於就是說車牌的防偽的功能的提升我想我們在明年度的車牌設計上面還會再做相關的一個規劃是 就是車牌的設計那有沒有考慮就是加晶片的這樣的一個方法"},{"start":261.733,"end":281.241,"text":"這個部分會納入考量不過就是說目前其實包括就是像高雄局它ETC通過的有一些就是說這一個屬於這個不適當的一些就是說車牌或偽造車牌的部分其實它ETC的有一些資訊其實都有回饋到我們監理跟警察機關我們也都有相關來查緝"},{"start":282.421,"end":297.171,"text":"是 好 那就是剛剛部長有提到就是我們目前也有提出道教條例的相關的一個修法就是要加重罰款嘛那本席也有提案啦那就是針對第12條之一就是有針對這個使用偽造、變造或者是就是冒領的這個車牌牌照我們就是要來加重它的一個罰則啦"},{"start":307.639,"end":329.755,"text":"我提的是罰款是比較重一點那另外我也有主張說希望就是累犯的話要把那個車輛直接沒入我們新的修法裡面也有包含沒入車輛也有這樣子的一個主張我們會直接沒入不用累犯就直接就沒入就直接沒入那我們也是希望就是說就是針對這個偽造車牌的這樣子一個犯案的一個形態能夠多管齊下然後遏止這樣子的一個犯罪數的一個成長"},{"start":336.34,"end":345.864,"text":"二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、 二、副委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":359.07,"end":360.712,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、 委員黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":374.918,"end":394.806,"text":"我請市長回答這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說滑緩的部分的話就是比照無形駕駛有2萬4提高到這一個3萬6那另外一個部分的話因為無照駕駛必須要有車輛的取得所以對於汽車所有人部分連帶處罰包括牌照一個月提高到三個月三個月提高到六個月六個月提高到"},{"start":395.906,"end":410.866,"text":"副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委員黃健豪等17人、 副委"},{"start":413.61,"end":424.265,"text":"這個目錄所以大概從法令的部分從這幾個部分那另外一個部分大家比較關切的未成年無照駕駛跟這個高齡者的部分的話另外有這個加強輔導這個變形的一些這個機制來做一個處理"},{"start":428.439,"end":451.159,"text":"是,我們也看一下就是說我們看到近5年的那個無照駕駛的那個舉發件數那在整個就是累計5年的舉發件數高達67萬多那累犯的這個人的話是26萬多人次那我們光今年1到10月份就有22萬多人次那這邊我想在"},{"start":452.472,"end":468.764,"text":"就是請教的部分就是說剛剛我提到就是無照駕駛的三個樣態可是他們無照駕駛還有就是有點區別就是說汽車的無照駕駛跟機車的無照駕駛那剛剛市長回覆的這個加重罰則的部分我們有沒有差別"},{"start":469.304,"end":495.655,"text":"那是汽車?針對機車或是無照駕駛?跟我們報告是有差別因為這次就是只提高這個上限沒有去動下限那基本上就是考慮到這個汽機車的車種類不一樣那另外無照駕駛可能發生這一個事故跟沒發生事故的情節也會不一樣所以這次針對這個提高這個上限的部分就是針對大家認為惡性重大然後可能要提高罰款的部分來做處理這個下限沒有動下限沒有動所以是還有一個"},{"start":497.856,"end":505.442,"text":"就是對於車輛種類﹖對,汽機車其實還到時候裁罰的時候會有個差別啦。汽機車會有個差別。就是還是有個彈性的空間啦。是。是。是。好,那謝謝部長。謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時38分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳委員素月：部長，早安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["陳委員素月：今天委員會是針對偽造車牌，還有無照駕駛進行專報。有關偽造車牌的案件數，根據統計，我們看到近5年來的偽造件數，尤其今年1到10月就高達了1,012件，相較去（2023）年整個年度251件，可以說是增加了三倍之多，這個速度真的是非常令人擔憂。因為我們知道會掛偽造車牌的，應該就是一些不法分子，有可能是酒駕被吊銷之後的，或者是販毒的犯罪集團，又或者是車手等等，他們會來購買偽造車牌，所以也造成了整個治安、甚至是其他用路人安全的威脅。這個部分當然也牽涉到警政署，還有交通部都要一起來合作。就交通部的部分，對於偽造車牌這樣的狀況，目前的防範措施是什麼？是不是可以請部長先講一下？"],["陳部長世凱：我們第一個措施是針對源頭管制，請財政部來協助我們，包含在海關的部分，還有就是網路的部分，讓民眾不容易取得偽造車牌，因為大家都知道，現在數位平臺發達，很多人的偽造車牌都是從網路上面取得，所以我們也有請數發部協助我們下架。這個部分，當然公路局自己每一天都在網路上巡查，透過機器人程式在網路巡查，巡查到馬上就會送警政機關，除了移送警政機關以外，我們也請數發部來協助，那是源頭的部分。另外是跨機關的查緝，我們也跟警政署聯手在查緝，包含高公局、公路局及警政署，大家配合查緝。第三個部分是加重罰則，我們現在正在努力當中，大概這一、兩天就會把我們的版本送到行政院，之後行政院大概在一個月之內處理，我們希望在這個會期能夠完成整個罰則加重的修法程序。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛部長有提到源頭的管理，所以剛剛您講的都是相關的措施，其中還有一個就是防偽的設計。我在上一次、好像在上個月也有質詢這個議題，那時候應該是公路局回復，說會有一些防偽的技術來防制不法集團偽造、變造車牌。我們也看到最近的新聞，就是這個月月初查獲的車牌，已經出現不法集團也可以偽造梅花烙印，甚至是車牌背面的防偽雷雕車號，所以他們的技術也是一直在升級，你們的防偽技術好像快跟不上了。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，他們的防偽技術在升級，我們的防偽技術也要升級，所以是不是請局長回答一下？"],["陳委員素月：好，你們有什麼樣的升級措施？"],["陳局長文瑞：現在車牌的防偽是多道的、有好幾種，包括字體、材質、厚薄、雷射，還包括前後面，有好幾道，所以不法集團偽造的部分，我們還是可以辨別出來是真或假。因為有一些真偽的部分比較細，所以有些還要用一些設備協助。我們會在明年度再召集相關機關，包括警政署也有給我們一些建議，對於車牌防偽功能的提升，我們在明年度的車牌設計上面，還會再做相關規劃。"],["陳委員素月：車牌的設計有沒有考慮加晶片這樣的方法？"],["陳局長文瑞：這個部分會納入考量。不過目前像高公局ETC通過的，有一些是屬於不適當的車牌或偽造車牌，ETC有些資訊都有回饋到監理跟警察機關，我們也都有查緝。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛部長有提到，目前你們也有提出道交條例相關的修法，就是要加重罰款。本席也有提案，就是針對第十二條之一，使用偽造、變造或者冒領牌照，要加重罰則，我提的罰款是比較重一點。另外，我也主張希望累犯的話要把車輛直接沒入。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們新的修法裡面也有包含沒入車輛。"],["陳委員素月：也有這樣的主張？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會直接沒入，不用累犯就直接沒入。"],["陳委員素月：我們也是希望針對偽造車牌的犯案型態能夠多管齊下，遏止這樣的犯罪數成長。另外，針對無照駕駛的部分，我們也看到最近幾件因為無照駕駛而釀成悲劇的狀況，讓我們也覺得這也是一個對於用路人安全上很大的威脅。無照駕駛其實有幾個樣態，包括年紀大的長輩或是未成年，還有吊銷駕照者，針對這個部分目前交通部也是有要加重罰則？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員素月：你們大概會怎麼樣修法？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是請司長回答？"],["陳委員素月：好。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，罰鍰部分是比照危險駕駛由2萬4,000提高到3萬6,000，另外，因為無照駕駛必須要有車輛的取得，所以對於汽車所有人部分會連帶處罰，吊扣牌照由一個月提高到三個月，三個月提高到六個月，六個月提高到一年。再來，只要是無照駕駛致人重傷、死亡，就直接終身不得考領執照；另外一個部分，只要是無照駕駛致人重傷、死亡，車輛一律沒入，所以法令的部分從這幾個部分著手。另外是大家比較關切的未成年無照駕駛及高齡者部分，有加強輔導併行的一些機制來做處理。"],["陳委員素月：我們看到近五年無照駕駛的舉發件數，累計五年的舉發件數高達六十七萬多，累犯人次是二十六萬多人次，光今年1到10月份就有二十二萬多人次，我想請教的部分是，剛剛我有提到無照駕駛的三個樣態，可是無照駕駛還是有點區別，汽車的無照駕駛和機車的無照駕駛，剛剛司長回復的加重罰則部分，有沒有差別？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，是有差別，因為這次只提高上限，沒有去動下限，基本上就是考慮到汽機車的種類不一樣，另外，無照駕駛可能發生事故和沒發生事故的情節也會不一樣，所以這次是針對提高上限的部分，也就是針對大家認為惡性重大，可能要提高罰鍰的部分來做處理，下限沒有動。"],["陳委員素月：下限沒有動，所以是不是還有一個針對車輛種類……"],["陳部長世凱：其實到時候裁罰的時候會有差別，汽機車會有差別。"],["陳委員素月：就是還是有一個彈性的空間。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月召委。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時47分）","繼續開會（10時57分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來有請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"157004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87a619be2bac257d7afa9b21d42de11d19c5cdff58eca86e5d73901da7dcf6c21b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:29:39 - 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xt":"以上跟委員報告"},{"start":711.744,"end":725.899,"text":"因為我看數法部一年其實耗費納稅人211億根據委員報告我們現在的預算明年提報的預算是86.6億然後再加上前專預算明年雖然會退場但是有47.6億所以我們總共的預算應該是134.2億"},{"start":730.223,"end":730.243,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請國安局蔡局長，還有調查局吳副局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長及吳副局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，召委早。"],["林委員憶君：早安。本席上周才剛去法國進行國會外交，剛回國，其中拜會了法國參議院外交暨國防委員會的副主席，他也注意到我們臺灣近年來都飽受了施壓的力道，包括散播假訊息，還有網路攻擊，並告訴我們訪團法國同樣也面臨了俄國的各種威脅，也期盼雙方未來能夠深化的往來。在這上面顯示其實AI確實正以不同的方式在改變整個世界，也改寫了許多國家的外交以及國防作戰的政策，所以本席在這邊有一個具體的建議，國安局應該要更加積極、主動和我們友好的國家多透過各種不同的管道，互相交流AI的情蒐。","現在我進到主題，有關上周四網路及社群瘋傳一段疑似中國開始散播，透過AI深偽仿聲的技術造假的抖音影片，影片是前立委高嘉瑜批判時政，經證實是不實的假影片，這個假影片來自中國的抖音，影片用AI模仿的聲音生成，以假亂真，雖然嘴型上面是完全對不上，但是這種深偽變照的影片恐怕只會越來越真，而且越來越多。還有今年1月份2024年總統大選剛結束，網路也在瘋傳習近平致電祝賀賴清德當選中華民國臺灣第16任總統的影片和圖片，後來也經證實，也確定是虛構的、捏造的資訊，是錯誤的訊息。所以面對資安與國安的疑慮，本席想請教國安局，未來將如何採取有效的行動，如何讓國人有辦法明辨真偽，還有如何透過教育和宣導的方式來嚇阻中國越來越猛烈的認知作戰，避免未來發生更大的國安問題？否則這樣的中國造假的影片、認知作戰的新型態作戰模式恐怕可能是未來趨勢，國安局將如何因應中共這些非傳統式AI技術武器化的供給以及滲透模式，還有如何加強這些假訊息的揭露，尤其是認知作戰、滲透作為的揭露呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，第一部分跟委員說明的是，在國際交流合作的部分，怎麼樣來因應錯假訊息或認知作戰，一直是我們跟國際友盟進行討論交流的重點，大家針對這些應處的經驗來做交流，也可以強化我們自己本身民主的韌性，以因應這些認知作戰對我們社會產生的衝擊，這大概是第一點的說明。第二點是針對AI生成的技術不斷在網路上散布這些錯假的訊息或影音，基本上我們國安團隊有建立一個跨單位的機制，在網路上來進行查找。這部分也確實用了很多新的技術跟系統，能夠在網路上各個不同的社群媒體平臺，找到這些有問題的帳號所傳散的錯假資訊，找到之後，也要進行必要的通報，所以跟委員說明的是，我們現在每個禮拜找到的這些錯假訊息的資訊，可能都有到四萬多件之多，我們會從過程當中去篩濾，對我們的社會秩序或國家安全比較危害的部分，通報到行政院相關部會來做查處，或儘快對外做必要的說明，這大概是行政措施上我們的努力。","另外在法規上、法律上，也跟委員說明一下，因為有一些AI散布的這些錯假訊息，假如有傷害到個人的名譽或社會形象，因為它是屬於告訴乃論，我們會很強烈的建議當事人可以跟警方報案或跟司法單位提告，進行相關的司法程序。另外一部分，假如有涉及到比較公訴罪的部分，它也許涉及到反滲透法或涉及到刑法的相關部分，這個部分我們也會跟我們國安團隊裡面具有司法警察機關權力的，包括調查局、刑事局跟憲指部來進行相關的查處。最後一部分是跟社群媒體平臺的合作，公私合作，那麼怎麼樣來跟社群媒體平臺做舉發、檢舉，請他們下架這些有問題的帳號，過去以來，事實上像刑事局針對這部分做了非常多的努力，據我看到的資料，他們在今年前三季的資料，第一季跟Meta舉發的有三萬多件，第二季四萬多件、第三季兩萬多件，所以我也必須要利用這個機會跟大院各位委員說明一下，我們相關團隊跟各個單位對於查處這些有問題的錯假訊息散布，事實上也是非常的努力。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝局長。","現在我請數位發展部的次長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：調查局副局長請回。","請問數位發展部次長，之前盛傳數發部針對一般的民眾用抖音服務進行限制，後來經過數發部的澄清，由於抖音是在2019年就被行政院列為危害國家資通安全的產品，是這樣沒錯吧？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["林委員憶君：目前是不是只有限制在我國公部門所屬的設備和場域，考量資訊的安全，全面禁止安裝抖音軟體呢？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["林委員憶君：請問，目前有沒有對公務人員私人的手機，還是一般的民眾做出這樣的限制呢？"],["林次長宜敬：沒有。"],["林委員憶君：為什麼沒有限制呢？是沒有人力，還是沒有法規，還是不敢限制，還是根本不想限制呢？"],["林次長宜敬：因為這個沒有法規，我們知道在一些威權國家，如果政府看到哪些app，他們覺得他們不想要的話，他們可以馬上下令，大概一個小時之內就可以把它封起來，但是我們臺灣是一個自由民主法治的國家，我們做任何事情並不是能由行政部門下一個命令就可以馬上做了，我們這個必須要有立法，然後有一些譬如它是不是假訊息，是不是有詐欺等等，最後的判斷還是必須由司法單位來判斷。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為我根據刑事局現在詐騙案件的統計，2023年民眾被詐騙的金額高達88.78億，其實已經創史上新高了，而在科技上面的發展，近年來臺灣的詐騙也是引發民怨，詐騙集團也越來越猖獗。賴清德總統在今年的8月20日出席2024年全面阻絕詐騙論壇中，強調了打詐視同作戰，不成功絕不罷休。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["林委員憶君：我想請問一下，數發部還在2022年7月成立的打詐國家隊到現在，其中刑事警察局轄下成立的打擊詐欺犯罪中心擔任國家隊的幕僚，數發部似乎是不是這樣迴避了打詐的責任呢？"],["林次長宜敬：沒有，我們非常積極主動在做打詐的工作。"],["林委員憶君：目前的詐騙大部分都是透過網路進行嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["林委員憶君：請問網路平臺是不是由數發部這邊來管理的呢？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["林委員憶君：政府透過跨部會合作積極打詐，組織了打詐國家隊，但是我覺得成果好像沒有大家想像的那麼理想，而且詐騙集團還是非常猖獗，今年8月TPOC台灣議題研究中心根據輿情資料庫分析，針對政府打詐國家隊各部門在打詐的聲量統計，其中負聲量最高也最顧人怨的部會，你們知道是哪個部會嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：請委員直接說吧！"],["林委員憶君：那就是你們數位發展部啊！現在你們的負聲量已經高達了1.2萬則，而且網路好感度只有0.35。我想請問一下，像現在詐騙集團越來越多，又盜用了照片和資料，而且又跟上潮流，也用AI深偽合成的照片和影片在社群中販賣，還有廣發各種金融產品及投資訊息，政府的效率還比不上詐騙集團，詐騙集團比你們部會都還要更了解科技和潮流，抓詐騙的是警政署、調查局、國安局，請問數發部的功能是在哪裡呢？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，基本上現在網路詐騙也是一條產業鏈，他們的作法，第一步，這些詐騙集團會在Facebook或在Google這種公開的社群平臺，他們放一些廣告或者是假訊息，想辦法把這些民眾騙到LINE的私人空間裡面、放到一個群組裡面，這是一個封閉的空間，如果一般民眾進去，看到裡面可能有200人，然後每個人都在聊，說他賺了多少錢等等，但是其中199人是詐騙集團的成員，只有那個民眾進去以後會遭到詐騙，接下來甚至詐騙集團會把這些民眾騙到一個一對一的私聊，而且通常像是Signal，還有Telegram這種加密的一對一私聊空間，他們的目的就是為了躲避政府的監管，即使事後發生了詐騙的事情，我們檢調單位也沒辦法進去看他那些加密的訊息，他都拿不到，等到民眾已經匯款的時候，通常詐騙集團很快會再做轉帳，用各種方式去洗錢，把錢洗掉，在後半段，事實上就是我們內政部警政署他們在做的事情，還有金管會，他們在阻斷金流，那我們數發部在做的事情就是想辦法阻止這些詐騙集團，把這些民眾騙到這個小房間裡面，所謂的小房間裡面，就是這些LINE的群組裡面，因為一旦被騙進去以後，我們政府能做的事情就很少，所以我們現在在這個打詐團隊裡面，即整個政府的打詐團隊裡面，我們數發部跟內政部以及金管會的分工基本上是這樣子，我們在前面儘量的防堵，我們也必須講，我們數發部非常努力，事實上我們有建立一套系統，在9月30號到10月14號當中，抱歉，是到11月8號，我們接受了民眾4萬8,648件的通報，其中一萬五千多件，我們已經通知Facebook、Google還有LINE請他們下架，一萬五千多件的這種可疑的詐騙廣告或者訊息，如果我們不做這件事情的話，那這一萬五千多則的詐騙訊息或者是廣告，一定會騙更多的民眾進入這個小房間，所以我們做這個事情很多的民眾沒有感覺到，因為這個事情，這些詐騙後來就沒有發生了，沒有發生並不表示我們沒有做事，事實上我們數發部的同仁是非常努力在做這件事情的，以上跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：因為我看數發部一年其實耗費納稅人211億……"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，我們現在的預算，明年提報的預算是86.6億，然後再加上前瞻預算，明年雖然會退場，但是有47.6億，所以我們總共的預算應該是134.2億，謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：但是到現在資安問題還是很嚴重，所以打詐到現在似乎還是沒有對其他部會有任何的幫助和成效，但是我還是希望，最後還是希望數發部要好好的發揮整個功能。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請陳冠廷委員發言。因為局長時間有限，請您這邊控制好。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}},{"id":"157003","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157003","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87943194351fbff9d8dc7cef15d9be6ba6c5cdff58eca86e5d94d4c3b9d427a4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:27:02 - 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這個也有處理這個我想我們也有經費有跟公所那邊聯絡來做經費的一個協助 好謝謝你也把書面資料提供"},{"start":158.899,"end":179.709,"text":"好我們現在談預算這個114年度的預算我是舉兩個案例我們就以這個農村發展及水土保持署作為案例你看我們那個整體性治山防災的預算其中這裡面提到"},{"start":181.091,"end":190.26,"text":"這個整個預算是45億多,其中投注在原住民族地區5億1000多萬,45億裡面有5億多投注在原住民族地區。"},{"start":205.592,"end":233.706,"text":"我們看這個大規模崩塌及不安定土砂防撿災。這裡面投入在原住民族第7的有一億多的經費。這樣的一個處理、寫法到農業部或是水利所各或是水保署的相關機關可能不是很清楚。"},{"start":235.024,"end":260.776,"text":"過去一開始經濟部水利署對於那個自來水的無自來水的一個處理一開始他們也是用原住民族地區我後來建議他們要以原住民族部落為基礎後來他們才了解原住民族地區是什麼呢?譬如說整個花蓮縣都是原住民族地區"},{"start":262.299,"end":289.571,"text":"花蓮市是原住民族第7、吉安鄉是原住民族第7事實上原住民的人口、原住民的部落都集中在某個地方部落是不同的所以不能以原住民族第7作為一個範圍來去計算原住民相關的經費要以什麼呢?"},{"start":290.526,"end":319.912,"text":"要以原住民族基本法第二條要以部落是中央人民會所核定的部落所核定的部落作為一個來去計算或者是有涉及到譬如說這個涉及到家戶或個人為核心的也可以所以我們看這個農業部相關的這些預算包括主計單位也必須要去了解"},{"start":322.648,"end":335.152,"text":"農田水利快意整合整體性防災加強水庫集水期治理計劃國有林治理五億多"},{"start":340.626,"end":358.161,"text":"農地重劃期基礎建設8100萬還有國庫補充到農田水利事業的基金3000多萬類似像這樣的農村再生建設及發展計畫農村三村綠色2.35億"},{"start":362.152,"end":381.546,"text":"農田水利設施6點多億這個都必須但我建議放在我們原住民部落更好所以我的建議是預算書的自用說明就把它改為原住民族部落這樣的話會更符合實際的需求"},{"start":382.447,"end":401.277,"text":"我跟委員報告改這個變成部落我絕對同意但是它不是重點重點是當不管是原住民部落或是因為整個現在那個土石流或大規模崩塌都在山區那山區的話不管它是不是屬於原住民部落我們會根據它的潛勢溪流本身的風險"},{"start":402.278,"end":402.318,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":423.197,"end":451.968,"text":"基本上啊,農業部的大部分會跟原住民族的部落會有關係了。但是不是全部。幾個例子,譬如說這個河仁、蘇花公路那個河仁到崇德這個之間,有一部分是我們的部落,有很大部分不是我們的部落。所以這個部分,你說全部要把它算進去也不太好。所以這個部分是一個跟那個農業部以及相關的屬做一個溝通。好,我們看這個。"},{"start":454.312,"end":454.592,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":476.704,"end":477.966,"text":"在海岸海岸的那個"},{"start":485.66,"end":485.76,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":509.211,"end":528.819,"text":"我跟委員報告齁這個是發言縣政府在執行的案子那我想我們農業部也不認同用這種方式應該其他還有其他改善的更細緻的作為去清楚啦那這個部分我想我們會跟縣政府來討論不只是他們啦因為你們現在是屬地主義啊有的是你們嘛齁"},{"start":529.679,"end":548.256,"text":"有的是縣政府有的是那個水利署有的是那個那個叫什麼東莞處所以這個部分一定要好好的去水利署可能比較不會因為他們也知道海岸的一個管理所以其他其他的機關就未必了解好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":389,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra 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黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、"},{"start":166.348,"end":190.055,"text":"這邊我還是要提醒部長這個事情不是交通部的事情必須要跨部會來整合我想這個背後這是一個很龐大一個非法的供應鏈從製造進口到網路銷售甚至平台都看得到都買得到怎麼樣跨部會來做整合怎麼樣提出一個對策部長是不是有什麼樣可以提出一個具體的一個方法或是"},{"start":191.135,"end":213.315,"text":"跨部會的整合的部分一直在進行當中,包含財政部也幫忙在這個源頭阻斷的部分,讓它進口沒有辦法進來,在海關的部分先阻斷。那速發部也協助我們在網路的平台上面如何讓它下架。那當然查緝的部分內政部警政署也相當的幫忙,在查緝的部分他們也跟我們合作,我們聯合在查緝有做偽造車牌的這個部分。"},{"start":214.911,"end":241.171,"text":"本席還是要提醒這個上有政策下有對策當我們在做一些政策的時候犯罪說法又在日新月異像我這幾天我在高速公路上面其實不是只有偽造車牌甚至我們現在有些車子它的車牌上面給你裝LED燈或是做一些什麼樣的處理讓你快速都拍不到這個真的很多很多"},{"start":242.212,"end":259.151,"text":"日新月異的手法我想這也必須我們的公路局跟相關警政組單位要來看怎麼樣來做這樣的一個查緝尤其高速公路非常的危險是不是在所謂的一個我們的一個公路警察局的還有包含我們國道警察隊的部分怎麼樣來做一個巡訪的處理"},{"start":260.592,"end":283.808,"text":"那另外針對我剛剛有看到我們的報告裡面有提到無照駕駛這個部分那當然我覺得我們現在尤其偏鄉面臨一個問題就是所謂的一個未成年的一個無照駕駛跟老年人口的事故我想上次部長到屏東的時候我們也特別提到我們現在的路越開越大條大家速度都很快那尤其有一些交叉路口"},{"start":284.728,"end":310.832,"text":"一些老人家經常就造成所謂的A1事故那我想除了這個事故之外那其實最大的一個問題也在於所謂的一個交通的一個普及性的一個不足啦是公共運輸的部分要來加強是我想包含我們剛剛有提到不管是幸福巴士也好、小房公車也好甚至火車的一個通行的頻率你沒有這個大眾運輸的普及大家出門我就騎摩托車方便嘛"},{"start":311.292,"end":326.622,"text":"在方便的時候就造成事故的明顯的增加這是一個很重要的一個點那尤其有些學生家長、小孩子怕他坐公車坐不住所以他只好讓他買摩托車讓他去騎沒有駕照啊才能造成事故啊"},{"start":327.68,"end":357.078,"text":"這部分我們怎麼樣去加強這個部分一方面我們會加強輔導對於年長者或者是未成年未成年當然我們就列管希望他透過教育的方式希望他們家長要負起責任不要讓他做這樣的行為那對於年長者我們會輔導他盡量去考照那另外就是委員您剛剛所關注的幸福巴士的部分還有公共運輸的部分我們目前在偏鄉的部分我們盡量去加強就是說盡量在補助的方面做足一點讓他的路線路網可以更廣服務到所有的鄉親"},{"start":357.418,"end":379.128,"text":"是我覺得越普及大家就會越使用大眾運輸工具這是一定的啦是啊你顧過一、兩年一幫車什麼人要坐的金額就沒辦法支付嘛所以這個部分我們會優化齁到時候他叫車的模式啦叫車的模式如果可以用預約的齁他就不用用等車的方式小黃公車是對我們目前看起來是最好的一個方式是是是而且跟這個老人家又很貼近"},{"start":379.508,"end":396.443,"text":"是 所以我們現在大力在推廣這方面那就拜託部長這邊能夠再積極來輔導我們屏東縣政府能夠強化這樣的一個普及率那另外我們小琉球是一個我們現在很重要的一個旅遊的一個景點那我想觀光署這個大篷園管理處"},{"start":397.884,"end":423.163,"text":"比較遺憾的啦因為現在小琉球其實觀光署沒做什麼事幾年就將近有200萬的人會過去小琉球這個比常住人口還多但是很遺憾的現在目前面臨所謂的一個交通跟停車的一個嚴重的不足那尤其這個我們的目前的碼頭這個停泊的一個船我們的運輸船也蠻多的但是因為"},{"start":424.103,"end":448.277,"text":"機車的停車位嚴重不足,造成連我們自己在地鄉親都找不到地方停車那目前針對這個我知道航港局有在做一個規劃那也配合我們屏東縣政府針對這個港口的水岸風貌做一個改善計畫那我想碰碰處也不能這也責無旁貸啦這搭配觀光的部分怎麼樣配合我們航港局做一個規劃是不是請署長說明一下"},{"start":449.718,"end":473.667,"text":"對,跟委員報告這個部分我們除了航港局的協助興建一些部分的停車空間之外其實我們也跟縣政府充分合作我們也希望這個島是一個綠色島我們希望以後的話能夠只有電動機車因為我們覺得這個燃油的機車其實對這個島嶼的破壞是蠻大的但是還有一些相關的法令我們跟環境部在討論"},{"start":475.427,"end":484.191,"text":"這應該要積極輔導啦,因為畢竟這個琉球的這個整個生態保育我想也是一個問題。他旅遊型態很多都騎機車的。所以這部分還是請部長這邊再積極來處理。那最後一個我想墾丁的一個觀光困境,這個剛剛我們李委員他們有講,"},{"start":493.155,"end":515.787,"text":"除了國外旅遊人口銳減之外連國旅也是肯定的痛明顯明顯非常的下降截至目前為止只有剩下185萬人次較去年大幅減少了將近140萬人剩下一個多月署長我想你經常提到的微笑曲線我想這個"},{"start":516.727,"end":539.209,"text":"想法都很好啦但是執行面真的我們要去思考一下我們不只是在地的觀光業者苦不堪言甚至這些社區我想這個未來有沒有積極一個機會能夠跟他們合作讓他們藉由一些生態旅遊達到環境保護的一個目標也可以創造一些的一個商機這部分是不是我們再重新來檢討一下"},{"start":540.47,"end":564.176,"text":"跟委員報告我們除了這個恆春配合恆春150週年之外我們覺得尤其是屏南的部分應該成立一個專案這個部分應該把墾丁拉進來我們會跟那個墾管處一起還有這個國家公園署我們覺得這件事情它涉及到兩個層面一個就是將這個秩序把它做得更安全更有品質"},{"start":565.296,"end":582.828,"text":"也就是品質的部分應該要確保那第二個部分才是怎麼去隱刻怎麼讓它去有更有系統化的這些活動能夠按照這樣子一個發展去做一些隨意的活動這兩個部分我們會用專業的方式來做處理我們必要的時候我們會請警察單位來參與"},{"start":584.269,"end":610.709,"text":"好 那我想恆春建成150週年是明年很重要的一個活動那我想藉由這個機會我們再請跨部會來重新盤點包含我們的內政部也好、交通部也好相關部會重新來檢視一下墾丁這個恆春半島這個國家公園到底有什麼樣新的一些特色或是一些新的玩法我想不要讓人家覺得來坤町就是整個地方在玩而已"},{"start":611.63,"end":640.757,"text":"不會有新的刺激我想部長也常常下去嘛一定要有真的要有新的規劃新的策略新的深度旅遊那甚至我覺得連這個我們未來這個高鐵這個搭配一些活動部分怎麼樣拉到這個恆春半島我覺得有很多的面向一起來努力啦那未來我想肯定是一個這個台灣的一個很重要的一個旅遊資源那也希望藉由這樣的一個處理能夠讓更多人來到屏東看見屏東的美好謝謝"},{"start":641.417,"end":641.598,"text":"好,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時25分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長、公路局陳局長以及林福山司長。"],["主席：請陳部長、陳局長、司長。"],["徐委員富癸：部長、局長、司長早安。今年偽造車牌的案件確實明顯增加，截至今年10月就高達1,012件，比去年的251件高出數倍，甚至在8月份就高達兩百多件，這很恐怖啦！偽造車牌不是只有單單一個管理的問題，更是造成社會治安跟交通安全的問題，部長認同嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我非常認同，道路安全是一方面，另外，我們看到很多案件都是跟治安相關的，這也造成了治安方面的漏洞，所以我們現在很積極在努力，包含源頭的管制，包含跨機關的查緝，包含我們現在正在著手要修法加重罰則。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想我們現在也是積極在做這樣的危機處理，我們把道路交通管理處罰條例的罰金提高到三萬六千元，並採取沒入跟銷毀車輛的措施，但是這樣的作法，部長認為有足夠的嚇阻作用嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得把罰則提高，當然會有一些嚇阻作用出來，但是更重要的是源頭的管理，就是讓偽造的車牌沒有辦法進來，這個部分我們也跨部會正在努力當中，還有就是執法的部分，我們也在跨部會努力當中。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，當然這個分成兩個層面，一個是民眾惡意去購買，可能做一些危害治安的行為，另外一個可能有一些無辜的百姓鄉親，他們並不曉得這個嚴重性。所以我們除了在積極處罰的層面外，怎麼樣針對法規的宣導，包含提醒是不是觸及到偽造特種文書件的說明的部分，公路局跟相關單位有沒有做這樣的規劃，怎麼樣去提高宣導？"],["陳局長文瑞：沒問題，跟委員報告，我們現在所有不管是從海關，不管是從網路平臺，不管是從警察機關的取締或者是停管機關有時候路邊查到的，我們在各地區查到之後，就是發布新聞稿，其實他違反涉及的不只是行政罰，還有刑罰，所以我們是一直在做相關的宣導。"],["徐委員富癸：這邊我還是要提醒部長，這件事情不是只有交通部的事情，必須要跨部會來整合，包含我想這個背後是一個很龐大的非法供應鏈，從製造、進口到網路銷售，甚至在平臺都看得到、都買得到，怎麼樣跨部會來做整合、怎麼樣提出一個對策，部長，是不是可以提出一個具體的幫助措施？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在跨部會整合的部分一直在進行當中，包含財政部也幫忙在源頭阻斷的部分，讓它進口沒有辦法進來，在海關的部分就先阻斷；數發部也協助我們在網路的平臺上面如何讓它下架；當然查緝的部分，內政部警政署也相當地幫忙，在查緝的部分，他們也跟我們合作，我們聯合在查緝有做偽造車牌的部分。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，本席還是要提醒，上有政策，下有對策，當我們在做一些政策的時候，犯罪手法也日新月異。像這幾天我在高速公路上面看到，其實不是只有偽造車牌，甚至現在有些車子在車牌上面裝LED燈，或是做一些什麼樣的處理，讓你快速都拍不到，真的很多很多日新月異的手法，我想公路局跟相關警政單位也要看怎麼樣來做查緝，尤其高速公路非常危險，是不是在公路警察局以及國道警察隊的部分，怎麼樣來做一個巡防的處理？","另外，我剛剛有看到你們報告裡面有提到無照駕駛的部分，當然我覺得現在尤其是偏鄉面臨一個問題，就是未成年的無照駕駛跟老年人口的事故，上次部長到屏東的時候，我們也特別提到，我們現在的路越開越大條，大家速度都很快，尤其有一些交叉路口，一些老人家經常就造成所謂的A1事故。除了事故之外，其實最大的一個問題點在於交通普及性的不足……"],["陳部長世凱：公共運輸的部分要來加強。"],["徐委員富癸：是，我想包含我剛剛有提到，不管是幸福巴士也好，小黃公車也也好，甚至火車通行的頻率，沒有大眾運輸的普及，大家出門就會覺得騎摩托車方便，但方便的時候就造成事故明顯的增加，這是一個很重要的點。尤其有些學生，因為家長疼小孩，怕他坐公車來不及，所以只好買摩托車讓他去騎，沒有駕照，常常造成事故啊！這部分我們怎麼樣去加強？"],["陳部長世凱：關於這個部分，一方面我們會加強輔導，對於年長者或者是未成年，未成年我們就列管，希望透過教育的方式，他們家長要負起責任，不要讓他做這樣的行為；對於年長者，我們會輔導他儘量去考照。另外就是委員剛剛所關注的幸福巴士以及公共運輸的部分，目前在偏鄉的部分我們儘量去加強，就是儘量在補助的方面做足一點，讓它的路線、路網可以更廣，服務到所有的鄉親。"],["徐委員富癸：是，我覺得越普及，大家就會越使用大眾運輸工具，這是一定的啦！不然久久的一、兩個小時才一班車，誰要去坐？根本就沒辦法應付嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：所以這個部分我們會優化叫車的模式，叫車的模式如果可以用預約的，就不必用等車的方式。"],["徐委員富癸：我們目前看起來小黃公車是最好的方式，而且跟老人家又很貼近。"],["陳部長世凱：是，所以我們現在大力在推廣這方面。"],["徐委員富癸：那就拜託部長能夠再積極輔導屏東縣政府來強化這樣普及率。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，小琉球是我們現在一個很重要的旅遊景點，由觀光署大鵬灣管理處主管，現在其實觀光署不用做什麼事情，一年就有將近200萬人會過去小琉球，比長住人口還多，但是很遺憾地，目前面臨交通跟停車的嚴重不足，尤其目前碼頭停泊的運輸船也滿多的，但是因為機車的停車位嚴重不足，造成連我們自己在地鄉親都找不到地方可以停車。目前針對這個，我知道航港局有在做規劃，也配合屏東縣政府針對港口的水岸風貌做一個改善計畫，我想鵬管處也責無旁貸，搭配觀光的部分怎麼樣配合航港局做一個規劃，是不是請署長說明一下？"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告，這個部分除了航港局協助新建部分的停車空間之外，其實我們也跟縣政府充分合作，我們也希望這個島是一個綠色島，我們希望以後能夠只有電動機車，因為我們覺得燃油的機車對這個島嶼的破壞是滿大的，但是還有一些相關的法令，我們也跟環境部在討論。"],["徐委員富癸：這個應該要積極輔導，畢竟小琉球的生態保育，我想也是一個……"],["周署長永暉：它很多旅遊型態都是用騎機車的……"],["徐委員富癸：對，所以這部分還是要請部長再積極處理。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：最後一個我想談墾丁的觀光困境。剛剛李委員他們有講，除了國外旅遊人口銳減之外，國旅真的也是墾丁的痛啦！非常明顯的下降，截至目前為止，只有剩下185萬人次，較去年大幅減少了將近140萬人。那剩下一個多月，署長經常提到微笑曲線，我想這個想法都很好，但是執行面真的要去思考一下，不只是在地的觀光業者苦不堪言，甚至未來有沒有機會能夠積極跟這些社區合作，讓他們藉由一些生態旅遊，達到環境保護的目標，也可以創造一些商機，這個是不是你們再重新來檢討一下？"],["周署長永暉：除了配合恆春建城150週年之外，尤其是屏南的部分，我們覺得應該成立一個專案，這個部分應該把墾丁納進來，我們會跟墾管處還有國家公園署一起。這件事情涉及到兩個層面，一個就是把秩序做得更安全、更有品質，也就是品質的部分應該要確保；第二個部分才是怎麼去引客，怎麼讓他更有系統化地參與這些活動，能夠按照這樣的發展去做一些水域的活動。這兩個部分，我們會用專案的方式來處理，必要的時候，我們也可以請警察單位來參與。"],["徐委員富癸：恆春建城150週年是明年很重要的活動，我想藉由這個機會，再請跨部會來重新盤點，包含內政部也好，交通部也好，請相關部會重新來檢視一下恆春半島的墾丁國家公園，到底有什麼樣新的一些特色或是一些新的玩法，不要讓人覺得來墾丁就只有在那幾個地方玩而已，不會有新的刺激。我想部長也常下去，一定真的要有新的規劃、新的策略、新的深度旅遊，甚至我覺得未來連高鐵也能搭配一些活動，看怎麼樣拉到恆春半島，有很多的面向可以一起來努力。未來墾丁是一個臺灣很重要的旅遊資源，也希望藉由這樣的處理，能夠讓更多人來到屏東，看見屏東的美，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","現在處理臨時提案，總共只有一案，請議事人員宣讀。","假車牌問題氾濫，交通部已表決心將重罰整頓。於今（2024）年11月14日交通部透過新聞稿指出，將提出強化防制偽造號牌修法草案，並持續以AI巡防、網路平台巡查程式等方式多管齊下，查緝使用者與販賣者。檢討假車牌罰則固有必要，然皆屬消極之犯後懲處。交通部首要之務，在積極盤點全國路段速限之合宜設置，以達致保障用路人人身安全，並同時對車輛扣牌案件進行更具效率之掌控，進而緩解假車牌猖獗，以致不利主管機關管理之窘境。","公路局曾於2023年辦理「道路速限訂定原則委託研究案」，成果報告歸納速限訂定原則、速限調整考慮因素及速限訂定機制與流程，並據以檢討所轄省道速限的合理性，持續檢視調整。此項研究案，與我國假車牌氾濫問題關聯至深，交通部應儘速辦理並對外報告結果。","針對上開事項，交通部應於一個月內向提案委員及立法院交通委員會提交書面報告，詳載假車牌與全國各路段速限檢討之問題。","提案人：徐富癸　　林宜瑾　　陳素月　　林俊憲　　蔡其昌　　李昆澤"],["主席：請問委員有沒有補充說明？徐委員。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝主席。今天我跟林宜瑾委員等幾個委員提這個案子，就是因為現在的道路開闢都很筆直又很大條，尤其在速限上面，往往有時候從七十、八十公里，一下子降到四、五十公里，一不小心就會造成很多的違規事件，甚至造成很多問題，也造成很多民怨。針對這個部分，公路局在去年曾經訂了一個委託案，但到目前為止還沒有一個具體的結果，所以本席要求交通部在一個月之內，針對這個規劃案的處理情形向交通委員會提出書面報告，也詳載假車牌跟各路段速限檢討的問題。以上補充，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。行政機關有沒有意見回饋？"],["陳局長文瑞：沒有，交通部遵照辦理。"],["主席：遵照辦理，是不是？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["主席：臨時提案就照案通過。沒有問題的話，臨時提案處理完畢，如果有委員對上述提案補簽，列入紀錄並刊登公報。","繼續請陳素月召委發言。待會兒陳素月召委發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 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個影像，最後變成一個動態，這四個全部可以組合。因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI，由研析幕僚單位來使用這個東西，因為第一個有時間的壓力，可是現在這個生成式的結果，像這個方塊圖我們改變一下，問它30秒，產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述，所以這個東西8乘8，它可以產生64種不同的結果。請問這種情況下，我們的幕僚如何去收斂？可能迴歸過來，你還要倒過來，用你的AI技術去過濾、再簡化，這個部分我是不是請局長做一個回應？"],["蔡局長明彥：基本上，委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的方法論，我們局裡面事實上已經有投入滿長一段時間的研究。也跟委員說明的是，我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事布局，在啟動這樣的一個生成式AI系統過程當中，就正如委員所講的，我們必須要由研析人員來設定，我們當時設定的大概有70個指標，把70個指標建立到我們生成式AI的系統裡面去，在這些指標的資料運作之下，由它幫我們來預測中共人事可能的布局。跟委員說明的是，預測的正確率相當的高，這主要的重點就在於說，我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維，所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點。"],["陳委員永康：特別還是建議，就是說，我們做研析人員，他的工具，跟他的資料庫，需要持續在這方面投資增長，如果只是用純粹的一般工情，也許可以花點錢，很多軟體都會提供，但是邏輯框架就像您講的，預測系統包括你的資料庫，包括你的information，還有你的邏輯框架，最後送進AI的infographic，這個要有持續更新。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員永康：我特別提出這個請局裡面在這部分努力。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝陳委員的指導，我們還有一些設計上的競賽，有時候用AI系統去做分析預判，有時候用人工系統來做分析預判，然後再做比較，這樣可以在過程當中不斷策進我們在AI運用方法論上的一些經驗。"],["陳委員永康：好，特別謝謝局長，大家共同努力。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒，我們繼續來努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員，局長請回。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：請林委員憶君發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 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我知道你的意思現在就是說我現在主要的主要就是市場嘛"},{"start":158.882,"end":160.003,"text":"你有看過這張圖嗎?我看過。你有看過?"},{"start":187.063,"end":215.48,"text":"這是你農業部長一個單位做的這樣這一張在最近的農村流傳的很廣很多農民來抗議我先跟你討論一下右邊是我做的左邊是你做的啦左邊這一張你可以做你要做宣傳我覺得OK可是它有很多的地方真的是有汙名化供糧收購都跟我同感這樣你說短期內糧價上漲面積會增加面積增加你看右邊這一張"},{"start":217.247,"end":241.018,"text":"你在100年的時候調了3塊錢,它隔一年面積增加多少?才0.7公頃耶。再往後面一年,也是0.8啊。有像你說的面積增加很多嗎?沒有對不對?第二個,你這個文宣品為什麼會是引起農民那麼多抗議?你要嘛你就每一個年度都有啊。你從民國99年100年,結果你一下跳到103,那一下又跳107。"},{"start":249.366,"end":267.434,"text":"媒體我們先溝通,面積沒有像這個圖上面講的增加那麼多嗎?我們的表決列正確。我一直強調就是說,你提高公糧的那一年度大概沒有影響,但是後來就會兩三年之內就會引起"},{"start":268.697,"end":275.158,"text":"我們有一個共識就是慢慢來嘛我現在給你看的就是100年調高那一次大概3年3年都還是很低好ok那3年事實上不是因為公糧收購啦你只要乘起重費要去推了一個叫做倒座直接給付嗎"},{"start":296.158,"end":315.264,"text":"你這個土裡面最嚴重的農民是要抗疫最多的就陳其中在105年的時候開始在試行這個所謂的這個直接擠布的時候他導致去種的人增多嘛這個跟宮廷說過已經沒有關係了可是你把他扣在這邊你看我右邊給你框起來105年到106到107他為什麼本來已經降下來了對不對他為什麼又跑上去"},{"start":323.479,"end":335.233,"text":"就是因為有陳其中這個新的這個措施啊那你後來發現不對陳其中後來把這個取消掉啦結果你都沒有把陳其中做的到座直接起步這個事情把它解釋清楚"},{"start":336.731,"end":355.11,"text":"農民跟工人收購不就是被黑鍋了嗎?是不是這樣?我想不是這樣子的齁。所有的稻作的價格跟稻作的面積基本上就是一個供需的部分。然後最重要的就是產地價格。你看以今年來講,現在目前的產地價格已經達到百台金已經一千兩百。"},{"start":356.952,"end":358.113,"text":"部長,所以你是不是忽略了那個105年開始?"},{"start":386.608,"end":408.592,"text":"市辦106年開始擴大然後107年前面實施的倒座直接給付你看看所有的波動都是在那幾年啊你看你看你左邊你先出去的圖你看喔你看左下角這個他的這個公糧收購這個量啊本來你調高之後慢慢慢慢可是他成長很慢喔一下飆很高到54萬公噸57、56你整年出什麼事就陳其聰的這個"},{"start":411.786,"end":418.939,"text":"到時候直接起步阿那你再看喔往上面看往上面看你說開始一般的這個糧價開始往下掉對不對也是那幾年阿"},{"start":420.785,"end":448.75,"text":"所以你先：我告訴你,你先回去研究這個我都研究過,我們研究得非常清楚了你從你這張圖你也可以看得出來當你面積提高的時候價格就降低對,所以我們現在是希望一個合理的價格是在24萬公頃阿董哥面積為什麼會增加?就是因為整體上給了一個沒有,這裡有時候還有停灌還有很多天災的關係性影響所以沒有辦法所以我們在這個處理的時候我們絕對不會把單一因素放進去"},{"start":450.171,"end":450.551,"text":"所以你從這個圖看得出來"},{"start":472.014,"end":472.394,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":489.807,"end":501.741,"text":"公糧收購那時候影響已經很低了那時候是因為農業部陳其中做了一個到座直接集會那你說不是單一OK我同意你要把整個整體去談嘛可是你不能完全歸罪在這個公糧收購對不對"},{"start":503.064,"end":521.281,"text":"好不好 這個再研究一下啦 這張圖我跟你講 這張圖是很多專家、很多農民 我了解 我跟委員報告齁 我也不是把所有的面積提高歸最在公糧的價格提高 我也沒有這樣講說百分之百就是公糧提高 我們的目標是讓我們的稻農所得大家都能夠"},{"start":522.677,"end":525.54,"text":"我今天提出這個質詢是我希望你要看得到到時候直接幾乎這個影響。"},{"start":544.121,"end":544.321,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":561.713,"end":561.853,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":576.045,"end":581.088,"text":"媒體在問說現在目前的雞蛋的行情一下高一下低是不是要農業部啟動聯合稽查那我的回應是說"},{"start":594.694,"end":607.817,"text":"當它的起伏有超出異常的時候,我們會啟動聯絡基查,而且要有證據的時候,我們就會聯絡基查。現在是沒有,沒有特別的一個異常。就是如果有異常,你查清楚才會聯絡基查。有證據才會去啟動聯絡基查。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時16分）請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。今天朝野立委都在問你宣傳費用的問題，你知道前幾天卓院長有特別說不允許宣傳費過度集中的標案，你知道嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["張委員啓楷：了解嘛！其實剛才朝野立委也在問你這個，我去調了資料，我看你今年3、4、5、6這幾個月，你們宣傳費所有的標案都集中在幾個電視台，三立部分，包括什麼用科技翻轉產業的養鵝人、重新出發農業專區的推廣，都是三立、三立、三立，還有民視、年代、中華等，現在我們臺灣電視台很多，有TVBS、東森、臺視、中視……"],["陳部長駿季：東森也有啊！我跟委員報告，我們今年整個宣傳費大概有8家的媒體進來……"],["張委員啓楷：我剛才有聽你說，但是……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們並沒有集中在1家、2家的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼3月跟6月都這4家？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你是以後要增加就對了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們今年度就有8家，不同的月份根據不同的主題，我相信會有不同的電視台或是媒體有興趣，所以這個部分我們講「集中」這兩個字，對我來講8家其實應該是夠廣了啦！"],["張委員啓楷：8家裡面還是沒有TVBS跟東森啊！"],["陳部長駿季：有啊！有東森啊！"],["張委員啓楷：有東森喔？TVBS不是拒絕往來戶啦？他們應該有機會？"],["陳部長駿季：對我來講不是。"],["張委員啓楷：不是啦！你今年8家，再想一下，還有好幾家很好啊！中視、中天、寰宇。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我剛才也說過，針對媒體的部分，我們也會針對我們政策宣導的目的，就如同委員所提到我們的廣度要夠，廣度夠的話，我們會去了解不同媒體的社群對象是什麼，我們儘量開拓廣度，以這個角度來思考。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道你的意思，我現在調的資料就是這4家嘛！過度集中，這個就是違反卓院長說的，你現在說有8家，對不對？那我更進一步要求你，你剛剛講的，我跟你共識是一樣的，我們再多廣一點，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：包括TVBS可能想一下，好不好？或者其他一些優質媒體，寰宇啦這些。來，另外我們來談內容，請部長看左邊這張圖，你有看過這張圖嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我看過。"],["張委員啓楷：你有看過，這是農業部哪一個單位做的？這張在最近的農村流傳得很廣，很多農民來抗議。我先跟你討論一下，右邊是我做的，左邊是你做的，左邊這一張，你要宣傳我覺得OK，可是它有很多地方真的是有污名化公糧收購，我就說個最簡單的，你說短期內糧價上漲，面積會增加，以面積增加來說，你看右邊這一張，你在100年的時候調了3塊錢，隔一年面積增加多少？才0.7萬公頃欸，再往後面一年也是0.8萬公頃，有像你說的面積增加很多嗎？沒有，對不對？第二個，你這張圖、這個文宣品為什麼會引起農民那麼多抗議？要麼你就每一個年度都有，你從民國99年、100年，結果一下跳到103年，一下又跳107年，所以真相沒有顯露。","部長，第一個，面積的部分我們先溝通，面積並沒有像這個圖上面講的增加那麼多，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們的表絕對正確。"],["張委員啓楷：你能不能把它變成每一年……"],["陳部長駿季：我一直強調的就是，提高公糧的那一年度大概不會有影響，但是後來的兩、三年之內就會引起移動，那個板塊移動以後，最高就到27萬公頃，從你的數據看起來也是快要到27萬公頃，它不是瞬間拉抬，而是漸進的，三年之內大概會拉上來。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們有一個共識，就是慢慢來嘛！我現在給你看的就是100年調高那一次……"],["陳部長駿季：大概三年，三年到四年之內。"],["張委員啓楷：三年都還是很低，OK，那三年事實上不是因為公糧收購，你知道陳吉仲後來去推了一個叫做稻作直接給付嗎？你這個圖裡面最嚴重的，也是農民現在抗議最多的，就是陳吉仲在105年開始試行所謂稻作直接給付的時候，導致種的人增多，這個跟公糧收購已經沒有關係了，可是你把它扣在這邊。部長，你看這個圖，我右邊框起來的105年到106年到107年，本來已經降下來了，為什麼又跑上去，就是因為有陳吉仲的這個新措施，後來發現不對了，陳吉仲後來就把這個取消掉，結果你們都沒有把陳吉仲推的稻作直接給付這個事情解釋清楚，農民跟公糧收購不就背黑鍋了嗎？是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我想不是這樣子的，所有的稻作價格跟稻作面積基本上就是一個供需的部分，然後最重要的就是產地價格，你看以今年來講，目前的產地價格已經達到百臺斤一千二百五十多了，已經快接近計畫價格了，因為前一陣子有颱風，導致我們的稻作產量變低，所以當面積跟產量壓到一定程度的時候，產地價格一拉高，農民不管是有繳公糧的或沒繳公糧的都會受益，這是我們基本上的論點，就是希望提高產地價格來支撐所有農民的收益。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你是不是忽略了105年開始試辦、106年開始擴大，然後到107年全面實施的稻作直接給付？因為看起來所有的波動都是在那幾年啊！你看左邊的圖，左下角的這個公糧收購量，本來你調高之後是慢慢的成長，但一下飆很高，到54萬公噸，然後57萬公噸、56萬公噸，那幾年發生什麼事情？就是陳吉仲的稻作直接給付啊！你再往上面看，一般的糧價開始往下掉也是那幾年啊，所以你先……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，從……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，部長，我跟你說，你先回去研究……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我都研究過，我們研究得非常清楚了，從你的這張圖也可以看得出來，當面積提高的時候，價格就降低，對不對？所以我們現在希望一個合理的面積是在24萬公頃。"],["張委員啓楷：當初面積為什麼會增加？就是因為陳吉仲給了一個……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這裡面有時候還有停灌以及很多天災的關係去影響，所以我們在處理的時候絕對不會把單一因素放進去。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，公糧收購就不是單一的，你為什麼……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所以我說產地面積跟產量、產地價格從你的圖表也可以看得出來，面積提高，價格就下降，這是一定的，所以我們的重點就是想辦法維持面積，想辦法提高我們的產地價格，這是我們一起努力的目標。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你從這個圖看得出來，增加的面積沒有像你講的那麼多啊，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：有到27萬公頃啊！"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼27萬公頃？你先看右邊這個圖，不要看左邊的，你們在100年調高了之後，101年只增加了0.7萬公頃，再隔一年增加0.8萬公頃，對不對？這個有共識嘛，對不對？後來有一個地方暴增了，我現在是跟你講，公糧收購那時候的影響已經很低了，那時候是因為農業部陳吉仲做了一個稻作直接給付，那你說不是單一，OK，我同意，你要把整個整體去談，可是你不能完全歸罪在公糧收購，對不對？好不好？這個再研究一下啦！我跟你講，這張圖是很多專家、很多農民……"],["陳部長駿季：我了解，我跟委員報告，我也不是把所有的面積提高都歸罪在公糧的價格提高，我也沒有這樣講說百分之百就是公糧提高，我們的目標是讓我們的稻農都能夠有好的一個所得，所以這個部分，我想跟委員說明的就是，我們未來會基於我們現在的「1集、2轉、3加3」，然後去看我們的公糧政策要怎麼配套，在年底的時候我們會有一個比較好的資料。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我今天急著提出這個質詢是希望你要看得到稻作直接給付的影響，不要單獨的……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我了解，這個我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：你的基準點是對的，做出來決策才會是對的……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：你才有可能達到像卓院長那天協調的時候所說的，每公斤要提高5塊錢，好不好？把基準點弄得更清楚一點。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的……"],["張委員啓楷：然後我明確要求一下，你這個圖有那麼多人有疑問，你能不能做一張新的？把每一年度都寫上去，好不好？你不要一下子從100年跳到103年，103年又跳到107年，好不好？每個年度讓大家清楚的看到。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們可以把年度的資料拉出來。"],["張委員啓楷：好，最後我用一點時間問一下，因為記者一直在問，最近雞蛋供過於求，對不對？可是價格還在漲，你說要去聯合稽查，是不是？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：要怎麼去解決這個雞蛋……"],["陳部長駿季：不是、不是，是媒體在問說，目前的雞蛋行情一下高一下低，是不是要農業部啟動聯合稽查？我的回應是說，當它的起伏有超出異常的時候，我們會啟動聯合稽查，而且要有證據的時候，我們就會啟動。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：最近有沒有？最近有沒有符合你剛剛講的……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在看起來是沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：還沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：現在是沒有特別的異常。"],["張委員啓楷：還沒有就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：就是如果有異常，你查清楚才會聯合稽查？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有證據才會去啟動聯合稽查。"],["張委員啓楷：最近那個雞蛋的問題，老實講，雞農還是很可憐，要多幫忙，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：在鄭天財委員答詢之後，我們會休息。","下一位質詢請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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他們認為應該由中央來統籌來決定因為這種好人也好壞人也好你不要丟給地方縣市首長來做嘛比如說我隔壁縣市他免徵了免徵這個將會到臺北市唱這個演唱會可以免徵娛樂稅啊對不起到我新北市或桃園市我就要科娛樂稅那大家壓力通通來啦對不對"},{"start":222.29,"end":233.655,"text":"所以這件事情啊我還是認為啊應該由中央來做統籌你就把責任擔起來好那你一定會說哎可是地方不願意這個娛樂稅免徵啊因為娛樂稅就是地方的稅收嘛那我請問一下娛樂稅一年多少錢"},{"start":242.813,"end":262.167,"text":"全年大概19億19億但是我們現在是新的修正修草案在院裡面大概就是對競技還有藝文活動授權地方政府可以減免這都可以有訂那像高雄市他事實上他有很多演唱會他其實都已經在沒有免徵那個沒錯啊所以我就說因為財政比較好的狀況他就可以去免徵所以我在這邊要講我們一年20億啊"},{"start":272.321,"end":298.21,"text":"其實對中央來講你稅收超徵今年稅收超徵起碼4千億啦20億對中央來講真的零頭都不到可是對一些尤其比較財政比較困難的縣市那個就是他們的主要的稅收之一所以其實中央來定哪些項目可以免徵然後由中央把這些的金額補貼給他們"},{"start":300.231,"end":300.271,"text":"19億的這個娛樂稅稅收"},{"start":320.231,"end":320.391,"text":"KTV、小鋼珠"},{"start":335.838,"end":338.141,"text":"至於我們剛講的全部都排在集會後面所以我們在這個娛樂稅這一次的去調整跟檢討是非常好的事情但是呢我覺得不要造成地方縣市政府的困擾我剛講嘛你不要讓他一定要做黑臉嘛"},{"start":352.856,"end":380.395,"text":"他做白臉呢他他要勒緊褲腰帶他做黑臉呢那他也很痛苦啊是不是所以是不是由中央你們現在的修法是第一項第一到四款是可以由中央中央來決對地方縣市政府來決定是不是你中央就把它決定下去然後這麼少的這個稅收啊我們去補助給補助給這個相關的地方政府是不是一個可以去考慮的方向"},{"start":381.277,"end":401.333,"text":"委員您說得很實但是我們在邀請地方政府開會的時候他們並不這樣認為他們認為說還是要讓他自己決定因為他覺得這是他的財政自己決定沒有我聽到的我聽到的都是希望中央趕快自己決定要補貼給他們就好了有的時候你會辦的藝文活動或競技比賽事實上可以產生很大的其他的"},{"start":401.493,"end":402.394,"text":"市長,我不會憑空去講這些話,如果地方縣市政府都很需要的話,我根本不用浪費我的質詢時間,因為我就是聽到真的好幾個縣市長跟我講,"},{"start":425.589,"end":432.672,"text":"是希望乾脆只有中央做決定另外你們的修法說實在像尤其電影是最離譜的啦因為電影原來呢是非常高這個國片30%其他的片子外國語片呢"},{"start":442.777,"end":454.705,"text":"是60%那現在你們把它修到15%可是部長你也知道齁事實上現在各縣市有關電影只有0.5%到1%各縣市唷只有0.5%到1%連2%我都找不到了所以"},{"start":463.444,"end":477.296,"text":"你們的修法這個稅率是不是有點太偏離現在實際的狀況?如果在我來看,我覺得影片、電影也應該免徵啊。你知道很多的地方縣市,現在連一個電影院都沒有了。現在很多都是那個數位串流,所以連電影院都沒有了。"},{"start":484.714,"end":505.789,"text":"即便是六都吧其實電影的稅率他們定的也都很低只有0.5%有的是1%而已所以你們現在各個的所謂的現行稅率其實比實際的稅率啊實際現在各縣市的稅率差的很多所以這樣的修法已經不切實際了已經不切實際了你承認吧"},{"start":513.723,"end":539.19,"text":"因為我們訂的是一個上限那我們也了解過各縣市政府實際上收的一個稅率所以我們就往下降當然您說現在往下降以後我們的草案往下降和它實際收取的一個稅率還是有一段距離那它在這個上限之下都可以自行去決定另外電影也是屬於藝文活動之中的一項我們也已經授權在這個草案已經授權地方政府可以去做全免也都可以的"},{"start":541.958,"end":562.586,"text":"我必須講由中央來決定它是一個比較政策的方向我剛才講電影真的你現在電影把它全部取消我覺得都應該了真的你做到再弄一個電影院其實經營起來都是很困難尤其你離開六都之後真的很多都根本沒有整個縣市一家電影院都沒有了"},{"start":563.346,"end":578.023,"text":"所以我在這邊最後剩一點時間我還是希望針對電影、針對演唱會、針對運動競技由我們中央的部分從財政部就直接把它作為免徵"},{"start":579.301,"end":592.14,"text":"那真的也不需要到地方大家來吵吵鬧鬧了啦你看比如說現在那個臺北市政府啊我看到也有些這個民進黨市議員說啊你沒有guts你要趕快把它怎麼免徵什麼之類的"},{"start":593.689,"end":616.964,"text":"基本上只要我們中央來做修法其實臺北市就會立刻配合啦他會立刻配合的但是我覺得有些部分是不是由中央就拿出一個態度來我剛才講如果這個稅收真的像貨物稅我們說貨物稅不是很好的稅對不對但是貨物稅它的稅收很多你沒有辦法放棄這個稅收"},{"start":618.405,"end":625.968,"text":"一律稅全部加起來20億而且我剛講最主要的貢獻我也沒有讓你免徵啊但是這些根本已經聊勝於無擺在那邊只是在這邊做樣子的"},{"start":635.892,"end":647.881,"text":"為什麼不能夠由中央來做免徵也是一個政策我們也鼓勵縣市去發展不管是大巨蛋經濟或者你巨蛋經濟或者演唱會經濟棒球經濟隨便啦對不對這也是一個態度嘛"},{"start":653.776,"end":664.88,"text":"所以您一開始也問過說我們有沒有去跟地方政府研議過這個事實上我們是不止一次跟地方政府討論結果他們的意見其實都已經歸納在我們這一次的修法草案裡面那我怎麼還聽到那麼多的不同的聲音真的就跟我講說拜託能不能讓中央自己聽下去就好了"},{"start":675.983,"end":676.303,"text":"了解委員的意見謝謝"},{"start":711.332,"end":712.448,"text":"最終請尹寬成委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":525,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時14分）謝謝主席，我請莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：請賦稅署署長也一起來。"],["主席：請賦稅署宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好、署長好。昨天有看棒球嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有看一些，沒有全場。"],["王委員鴻薇：署長一直在點頭，我想這兩天全國都在瘋棒球，因為中華隊打出非常好的成績，但是另外一方面也開始有一些討論，就是像棒球的競技比賽或者是演唱會之類的，尤其像臺北市因為大巨蛋的開幕，所以不管是球賽或者是演唱會，都受到高度的矚目。現在在臺北市的部分，包含一些藝文團體，還有一些地方的民意代表就開始一直有一個聲音說臺北市是不是應該取消娛樂稅、免徵娛樂稅？主要是包含演唱會、包含競技比賽。事實上，現在娛樂稅法的修正案也在我們立法院要進行審查，我想請問一下，在財政部提出娛樂稅法、娛樂稅條例的修正之前有沒有召集地方縣市政府來討論過？他們希望是由中央來主導還是要授權地方來免徵這些相關的娛樂稅呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關娛樂稅這個議題，其實財政部不只一次邀集地方政府來開會，基本上，第一個共識就是地方政府都不贊成廢止娛樂稅條例，因為他們認為這對他們來說還是一個重要的財源，尤其是在縣市裡面的鄉鎮，他收取的就歸這個鄉鎮，所以對他們很重要。"],["王委員鴻薇：那他們會同意由中央授權地方來廢除嗎？應該是免徵，不能廢除。"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們對娛樂稅的項目也做了一個檢討；第二個，因為現在娛樂稅的稅率是訂上限，那這個上限我們也了解地方政府其實都沒有用到這麼高的……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們就把上限往下降，讓他們可以在裡面自行訂定，因為現在本來就是訂一個上限，讓他們在裡面去訂定。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，部長，我可以跟你說，其實最近我們國民黨團去拜訪了非常多的縣市，很多縣市首長事實上都反映，對娛樂稅其實他們並不希望由中央來授權地方，為什麼呢？你想想看，我認為當這個稅法一通過之後，可能第一個作為領頭羊的就是臺北市，我剛剛講臺北市有大巨蛋經濟，所以臺北市非常有可能對球賽還有演唱會免徵娛樂稅，但是其他縣市政府未必有這樣的能力，所以很多縣市政府給我的反映是什麼呢？第一個，他們說娛樂稅當然是地方的稅源；第二個，他們認為應該由中央來統籌、來決定，因為不管是好人也好、壞人也好，你不要丟給地方縣市首長來做嘛！比如說，我隔壁的縣市免徵了，江蕙到臺北市開演唱會可以免徵娛樂稅，對不起！到新北市或桃園市就要課娛樂稅，那大家的壓力就通通來了，對不對？所以這件事情我還是認為應該由中央來做統籌，你們這邊就把責任擔起來。好，那你一定會說，可是地方不願意娛樂稅免徵，因為娛樂稅就是地方的稅收，那我請問一下，娛樂稅一年有多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：全年大概是19億，我們現在是有新的修正草案在院裡面，大概就是對競技還有藝文活動授權地方政府可以減免，這都可以來訂。像高雄市事實上有很多演唱會，其實都已經免徵娛樂稅，用文獎條例也可以做啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯啊！所以我就說財政狀況比較好的就可以免徵。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，要看各個地方政府的狀況。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我在這邊要講，我們一年20億啊！其實對中央來講，你的稅收超徵，今年的稅收超徵起碼4,000億，20億對中央來講真的是連零頭都不到，可是對一些財政比較困難的縣市，那個就是他們主要的稅收之一，所以其實中央來訂哪些項目可以免徵，然後由中央把這些金額補貼給他們，total全部加起來也不過20億，而且事實上我們剛才講的，大家比較希望能夠免徵的部分，比如說棒球等等的運動競技或者演唱會，其實稅收都非常的少，你看我們將近19億的娛樂稅稅收以什麼最多？高爾夫球最多，但是現在沒有人認為高爾夫球應該給它免徵，對不對？夾娃娃機最多，夾娃娃機每年都在增加，但是大家也不會覺得夾娃娃機要給它免徵嘛，對不對？還有KTV、小鋼珠。至於我們剛剛講的，全部都排在極為後面，所以我們娛樂稅這次去調整跟檢討是非常好的事情，但是我覺得不要造成地方縣市政府的困擾，我剛剛講了，你不要讓它一定要做黑臉嘛，它做白臉的話，它要勒緊褲腰帶，它做黑臉，它也很痛苦啊！是不是？所以是不是由中央來決定？你們現在的修法是第一項一至四款可以由地方縣市政府來決定，是不是你中央就把它決定下去？然後這麼少的稅收，我們去補助給相關的地方政府，是不是一個可以考慮的方向？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，您說得是，但是我們邀集地方政府開會的時候，他們並不這樣認為，他們認為還是要讓它自己決定，因為它覺得這是它的財政自主權。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我聽到的都是希望中央趕快自己決定，然後補貼給他們就好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：有時候你辦了藝文活動或競技比賽，事實上可以產生很大的其他效應、帶來其他很多的商機，所以這個本身來說是他們可以去做一些運用的工具或方法，對他們來說，這是很重要的，他們並不希望中央補他們這麼一些……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我不會憑空去講這些話，如果地方縣市政府都很需要的話，我根本不用浪費我的質詢時間，因為我就是真的聽到好幾個縣市長跟我講，希望乾脆直接中央做決定。","另外，你們的修法，說實在的，尤其電影是最離譜的，因為電影原來的稅率是非常高，國片是30%，其他的片子、外國語片是60%，現在你們把它修到15%，可是部長你也知道，事實上，現在各縣市有關電影只有0.5%到1%，各縣市只有0.5%到1%，連2%我都找不到，所以你們修法的這個稅率是不是有點太偏離現在實際的狀況？在我來看，我覺得電影也應該免徵。你知道很多地方縣市現在連一個電影院都沒有了，現在很多都是數位串流，所以連電影院都沒有了，即便是六都，其實他們訂的電影稅率也都很低，只有0.5%，有的是1%而已，所以你們所謂的現行稅率，其實現在各縣市實際的稅率差得很多，所以這樣的修法已經不切實際了，你承認吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：是、對，因為我們訂的是一個上限，我們也了解過各縣市政府實際上收的稅率，所以我們就往下降，當然您說現在我們的草案把它往下降以後，和它實際收取的稅率還是有一段距離，它在這個上限之下都可以自行去決定。","另外，電影也是屬於藝文活動之中的一項，我們在這個草案也已經授權地方政府可以去減免或全免，都是可以的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我必須講，由中央來決定，它比較是一個政策的方向，我剛剛講到電影，你現在把電影的部分全部取消，我真的覺得都應該啦。你說要弄一個電影院，其實經營起來都是很困難，尤其離開六都之後，真的很多根本都沒有了，整個縣市一家電影院都沒有了。最後剩一點時間，我還是希望針對電影、針對演唱會、針對運動競技，由中央的財政部就直接把它作為免徵，真的也不需要到地方大家來吵吵鬧鬧了啦。","你看比如說現在臺北市政府，我看到也有一些民進黨市議員說你沒有guts，你要趕快把它免徵什麼之類的。基本上，只要我們中央修法，其實臺北市就會立刻配合啦，它會立刻配合的，但是我覺得有些部分是不是就由中央拿出一個態度來？我剛才講，如果這個稅收真的像貨物稅，我們說貨物稅不是很好的稅，對不對？但是貨物稅的稅收很多，你沒有辦法放棄這個稅收，娛樂稅夯不啷噹全部加起來20億，而且我剛剛講，最主要的貢獻我也沒有讓你免徵啊，像高爾夫球、夾娃娃機，這些我也沒有讓你免徵啊，但是這些根本已經聊勝於無，擺在那邊只是在做樣子，為什麼不能夠由中央來做免徵？也是一個政策。我們也鼓勵縣市去發展，不管是大巨蛋經濟，或者巨蛋經濟，或者演唱會經濟、棒球經濟，對不對？這也是一個態度嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，你一開始也問過我們有沒有跟地方政府研議過，事實上我們不只一次跟地方政府討論，他們的意見其實都已經歸納在我們這一次的修法草案裡面，他們對於……"],["王委員鴻薇：那我怎麼還聽到那麼多不同的聲音？真的就跟我講說，拜託……"],["莊部長翠雲：會議上的意見……"],["王委員鴻薇：能不能讓中央自己訂下去就好了？"],["莊部長翠雲：事實上他們在會議上，他們都……"],["王委員鴻薇：你想想看縣市長，有些是財政局搞不清楚狀況，對不對？他很單純，他用那種幕僚，縣市長一聽到就想：開玩笑，我要做這個壞人喔，對不對？所以請你們再去問一問縣市意見，而且我覺得對你們來講，這部分的稅收非常非常的少，不需要執著於這麼一點點的稅收，而造成縣市這麼大的困擾，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：了解委員的意見，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍）：接著我們請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"156998","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156998","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87630aabfc464c982a06883678c1ed2d0dc5cdff58eca86e5df14af525873e7a105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:01:41 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部長 這個"},{"start":133.863,"end":150.639,"text":"推動到60%顯然這個時間是有一點久啦因為推動了12年那我們也知道說大家其實財政部一直都非常的努力可是這個其實要藉助很多的東風那我們也就是敗事在這個"},{"start":151.8,"end":160.843,"text":"臺北國稅局總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、國有財產署及所�"},{"start":182.782,"end":200.943,"text":"我想謝謝委員的鼓勵鼓勵也希望我們能夠更大的一個推進因為時間那麼長前面可能很快到後面就成為一個瓶頸就會比較緩慢所以這個部分我們還是會運用各種場合第一個讓民眾更容易去接近它更容易使用所以我們不管在那個APP上"},{"start":201.443,"end":201.463,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":226.294,"end":226.774,"text":"僅詢答．11月2僅詢答．11月2"},{"start":251.867,"end":273.72,"text":"這份你要領了要拿紙本啦就是這一樣的一個花票你如果中了獎了以後中了獎以後你還要再拿紙本那如果你忘記拿紙本的話還是你的油墨浮掉了就不能領獎囉那你的電子化的意義在哪裡部長你知道這樣的這個事情嗎"},{"start":274.76,"end":296.096,"text":"跟委員報告,我們不能講說我們已經滿意,我們認為所有事情都應該要往前走。部長你知不知道就是說,如果像這樣的一個電子花票,你上了APP以後囉,那你還是要帶著紙本才可以來領獎,你們知不知道嗎?負稅署署長、部長,你知道嗎?請問你們知道嗎?"},{"start":298.297,"end":327.096,"text":"我報告委員齁像他如果這個我們叫電子發票證明聯是資本的對不對他最主要是欠缺了一個載具就是我們講的譬如說手機條碼載具沒有他的手機條碼載具他這個就會儲存上雲端這個時候就不會有這個證明聯那大家還要拿資本才可以去得獎大家得獎已經非常高興了結果你告訴人家說你還要再拿資本來那這個是電子化的電子發票嗎"},{"start":329.518,"end":351.431,"text":"市長,你顯然已經看到這個問題了,如何改善呢?我跟葛委員報告,因為它如果變成一般的紙本的時候,就變成誰哪有那個紙本,就像你有對獎的資格一樣。所以我們一定要看到那個原來的紙本,否則今天如果有人,像之前發生過一些詐騙。所以你必須要在電子的系統裡頭,"},{"start":352.992,"end":353.232,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":371.275,"end":371.515,"text":"來做報告。"},{"start":388.567,"end":388.847,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":406.134,"end":423.8,"text":"總是有一個時辰吧,什麼時候淘汰勒?要營業人去換,那這個整個部分我想委員都是從那個變名的一個方角度來思考,那您剛剛所提的幾項就是說既然已經掃描QR Code進去,為什麼去對講的時候還要拿這個"},{"start":424.76,"end":426.963,"text":"委員會跟委員在座報告那委員的建議我們也來做一個精進的思考好不好"},{"start":439.377,"end":457.654,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":457.714,"end":472.763,"text":"部長我再請教你2024年10月份的全國賦稅收入的初步的一個統計我們到10月份我們的時增金額我們已經達到3.3兆了叫同期增加了2728億那達成累積到那個就是我們整體的一個分配算數裡頭116.2"},{"start":486.151,"end":511.708,"text":"這裏頭我們特別看到這一張圖裏面尤其是證交稅他佔了822億那其他的營所、中所還有營業稅這個這樣子浪不動動加起來也超過了800億那顯然從我們這個稅別的一個變化裏頭我們其實要講到了就是說今年的經濟其實非常的好那明年呢"},{"start":513.464,"end":534.819,"text":"明年的經濟成長率根據主計總署的估測是3.26%對那所以說明年是會比較差的我們預期他是稅收會比較少的沒有明年的我們的預算數是兩兆七千多還是比今年的預算數成長了近20%大概19%稅收的部分成長19.9%對"},{"start":541.583,"end":558.448,"text":"所以你是認為就是說今年前年的經濟成長率我們估值上修是4.03那看起來是今年是非常好的可是明年你們的預估才是3.15%那我們的經濟成長率是不是會稍微下降呢?"},{"start":559.148,"end":562.269,"text":"我們從那個臺經院這個最新的一個經濟預測裡頭我們從這一張這一張那個報表裡頭來看的話部長應該是這一個數字是非常準確的有沒有問題沒有問題嘛是阿您這邊有阿包含民間消費的年增率這個會在我們的營業稅裡面去出現嗎那所以今年"},{"start":580.517,"end":608,"text":"經濟成長率它能破4那明年你只能破3啊那我們可預期明年的這個整個經濟成長率它是沒有辦法比今年來得好是不是這樣子呢跟委員報告我們在稅收估測上經濟成長率是一個參考因素但除了經濟成長率還有其他的因素要一併考量當然當然所以那我們如果就是在用全球的經貿情勢的一個不確定性的話這個"},{"start":609.521,"end":630.374,"text":"隨著這個川普的一個當選美國總統的話那事實上這個不確定性就更大囉當然有他的不確定性存在是的是這個其實大家都緊張了你看這個川普總統當選了以後他最主要的一個經貿的一個政見其實對中國是非常不友善的"},{"start":631.074,"end":644.645,"text":"對我們臺灣其實我們也是高度的在警示那不管他的移民政策他的財政政策他的貿易政策其實我們可以非常清楚看到了中國近20年的經濟成長力現在中國的經濟是非常慘的"},{"start":648.868,"end":657.859,"text":"那如果讓川普再這樣子前面性的跟他對幹的話我相信我相信這個狀況中國的經濟狀況會是更不理想的布小部長你的看法是怎麼樣是委員您說的然後很適然後事實上算是委員也安排了一個專題報告在上週"},{"start":668.331,"end":671.353,"text":"川普的這些相關政策其實要等到他就任以後1月20就任以後實際落實的一個時間點以及他的程度跟規模會是怎樣然後會造成什麼樣的一個衝擊其實大家都在密切的觀察"},{"start":698.191,"end":722.115,"text":"那所以說今年的稅收的時增數那預期是會比去年預估的那個預算數多多少就像你剛剛提到的明年的經濟成長率預估只剩下3出頭財政部認為未來我們還可以像這幾年收到了這麼多的稅嗎顯然是不可能的所以本席在這裡主張今年的稅收時增比"},{"start":722.575,"end":736.985,"text":"預算多的部分,絕對要留到明年的編列預算還有刺激經濟的一個預算,不能像某些在野黨的委員主張現在就花掉了,那明年該怎麼辦?因為我們應該把時增數超過預算數的部分,第一個減少舉債,增加還債,然後納入稅計剩餘,作為以後的"},{"start":746.151,"end":747.372,"text":"接下來我們請黃宏威委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長還有賦稅署宋署長。"],["主席：莊部長、賦稅署宋署長，兩位長官請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長早安。部長，今天要跟你討論明年賦稅署的歲出預算，其中統一發票中獎清冊資料庫跟相關應用系統的維護計畫是一億多，統一發票給獎跟推行經費則是編了188億。統一發票的獎金制度是臺灣的一個稅務特色，也是許多民眾的小確幸，到了每個單月份的25號，幾乎全民都會討論統一發票的對獎，部長，我在這裡請教你，我們每年統一發票大概會發出多少獎金，你知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：統一發票的給獎最主要是依據營業稅法按營業稅3%來編列，如果在前面幾期有些沒有來兌獎，金額有剩的話，我們也會在下半年的時候增加組數，基本上我們希望這個獎金都能……"],["賴委員惠員：這個188億的3%大概有多少是統一發票的獎金？"],["莊部長翠雲：大概都到……"],["賴委員惠員：所以部長，你也不是很清楚。"],["莊部長翠雲：95%以上都是做獎金使用。"],["賴委員惠員：對，95%以上，所以這個188億的95%是用來做獎金，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員惠員：好。部長，我再請教你，上個月你剛剛辦完雲端發票推廣活動的成果記者會，顯然你對你自己的推動是滿意的，是不是這樣呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一直往前在推進，雲端發票占電子發票的筆數已經60%了，我們還要再繼續往前推進，希望大家都能夠把電子發票儲存在載具裡面、上傳到雲端。"],["賴委員惠員：好。部長，推動到60%，顯然這個時間是有一點久，因為推動了12年，我們也知道財政部一直都非常努力，可是這個其實要借助很多的東風，我們也是拜賜智慧手機的全面性推動，所以整個業績就上來了，突破了六成，電子發票從2000年試辦，一直到2006年建立服務平臺，到2012年推出共通性載具的服務，後續有沒有比較大的推動？有沒有這樣的計畫？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的鼓勵，也希望我們能夠更大地推進，因為時間那麼長，前面可能很快，到後面有瓶頸，就會比較緩慢，所以這個部分我們還是會運用各種場合，第一個，讓民眾更容易去接近它，更容易使用，所以我們會在app的運用上做改善，讓它更親民，讓大家喜歡用。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，顯然你對你們在統一發票的電子化，你是非常滿意的，很多民眾都會在單月份的25號對統一發票，可是大家卻認為財政部的電子化發票跟傳統的發票一點都不電子化，為什麼說一點都不電子化呢？你看看喔，部長，電子發票的紙本掃描QR code到雲端發票的app以後，理論上就應該要電子化了，對不對？但是民眾好不容易中了獎，領獎的時候才發現要領的話要拿紙本，就是掃描到雲端的發票如果中了獎，還要再拿紙本，如果忘記拿紙本或是油墨糊掉就不能領獎了，這樣電子化的意義在哪裡？部長，你知道這個事情嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們不能講說我們已經滿意，我們認為所有事情都應該要往前走，至於這個……"],["賴委員惠員：部長，你知不知道……"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道這個掃描……"],["賴委員惠員：像這樣的電子發票掃描到app以後，還是要帶著紙本才可以領獎，你們知不知道？賦稅署署長、部長，請問你們知道嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，這個電子發票的證明聯是紙本的，對不對？"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["宋署長秀玲：它最主要是欠缺了一個載具，就是我們講的手機條碼載具，如果他有手機條碼載具，那就會儲存上雲端，這個時候就不會有這個證明聯。"],["賴委員惠員：那你這個怎麼叫電子化呢？大家還要拿紙本才可以去領獎，大家得獎已經非常高興了，結果你告訴人家說你還要再拿紙本來，這樣還是電子化的電子發票嗎？署長，你顯然已經看到這個問題了，如何改善呢？"],["宋署長秀玲：是，我跟委員報告，因為它如果是一般的紙本，就變成誰有那個紙本就有兌獎的資格一樣，所以我們一定要看到原來的紙本，否則今天如果有人……像之前發生一些詐騙……"],["賴委員惠員：所以你要在電子的系統裡去加鎖啊，要再去加一個什麼樣的連結啊，怎麼可以讓左手這邊是電子化，右手這邊又是紙本呢？"],["宋署長秀玲：所以我們會希望……"],["賴委員惠員：這樣一點都不電子化，我跟你講，這個部分你怎麼樣去改善，會後來做報告。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["宋署長秀玲：是，我再會同……"],["賴委員惠員：顯然你已經造成擾民了，況且這實在是一個笑話，完全都沒有電子化。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，委員的指教我們來……"],["賴委員惠員：部長，再來，傳統紙本的發票只能由民眾自行輸入資料到雲端發票的app，這個非常不方便，也容易打錯，財政部已經推動電子發票，什麼時候淘汰這種紙本的發票？總是有一個時程，什麼時候淘汰呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：要由營業人去換，整個部分我想委員都是從便民的角度來思考，您剛剛所提的幾項，就是既然已經掃描QR code進去，為什麼去兌獎的時候還要拿油墨紙的那一張，以及傳統發票什麼時候能夠全面推動為電子發票，我想這些部分，我們會跟委員再做報告；委員的建議，我們也來做一個精進的思考，好不好？"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：我想這是從便民的角度……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是從便民的角度來思考。"],["賴委員惠員：就是從便民的角度去看，顯然是造成大家很大的困擾。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，沒錯，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：你們還喊得那麼大聲說發票電子化，這個顯然是少了哪一段沒有銜接上來。","接著，部長，2024年全國賦稅收入的初步統計，到10月份的實徵淨額已經達到3.3兆了，較同期增加了2,728億，達成率占累計分配預算數116.2%。我們看到這一張圖，尤其是證交稅占了822億，其他的營所稅、綜所稅還有營業稅，這樣子夯不啷噹加起來也超過了800億，顯然從我們稅別的變化來看，今年的經濟其實非常的好，那明年呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：明年的經濟成長率根據主計總處的估測是3.26%。"],["賴委員惠員：對。所以明年會比較差，我們預期稅收會比較少，部長，是不是這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，明年我們的預算數是兩兆七千多，還是比今年的預算數成長了近20%，大概有19%，稅收的部分成長19.9%。"],["賴委員惠員：今年全年的經濟成長率我們的估值上修到4.03%，看起來今年是非常好的，可是你們預估明年才3.15%，那我們的經濟成長率是不是會稍微下降呢？我們看台經院最新的經濟預測，從這一張報表來看，部長，這一個數字應該是非常準確的，有沒有問題？沒有問題嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！您這邊有寫，包含民間消費的年增率，這個會在我們的營業稅裡面呈現。"],["賴委員惠員：所以今年的經濟成長率能破4%，明年只能破3%啊！那我們可以預期明年整個經濟成長率沒有辦法比今年來得好，是不是這樣子呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們在稅收估測上經濟成長率是一個參考因素，但是除了經濟成長率，還有其他的因素要一併考量。"],["賴委員惠員：當然啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["賴委員惠員：我們知道全球經貿情勢有不確定性，隨著川普當選美國總統，事實上，這個不確定性就更大了！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，當然有不確定性存在。"],["賴委員惠員：是，其實大家都緊張了，你看在川普總統當選了以後，他最主要的經貿政見其實對中國是非常不友善的，那對我們臺灣，其實我們也是高度的在警示，不管他的移民政策、他的財政政策、他的貿易政策，其實我們可以非常清楚看到中國近20年的經濟成長率，現在中國的經濟是非常慘的，如果川普再這樣全面性地跟中國對幹的話，我相信中國的經濟狀況會更不理想，不曉得部長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員您說的很是，事實上，委員在上週也安排了一個專題報告，大家也都知道，川普的這些相關政策其實是要等到他1月20日就任以後，實際落實的時間點以及它的程度跟規模會是怎麼樣，然後會造成什麼樣的衝擊，其實大家都在密切地觀察，各部跟行政院也都會……"],["賴委員惠員：好，顯然你也準備得非常的充足，可是我在這裡要提醒，政府也是要儲蓄。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["賴委員惠員：我們要編列明年的建設跟經濟預算，這當然是非常重要的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員惠員：今年稅收的實徵數預期會比去年預估的預算數多多少？就像你剛剛提到的，明年經濟成長率預估只剩下3%出頭，財政部認為未來我們還可以像這幾年收到這麼多的稅嗎？顯然是不可能的。所以本席在這裡主張，今年的稅收實徵比預算多的部分絕對要留到明年編列刺激經濟的預算，不能像某些在野黨委員主張的現在就花掉，否則明年該怎麼辦？我在這裡特別跟部長做這樣的提醒。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，認同委員，我們對實徵數超過預算數的部分應該要減少舉債、增加還債，然後納入歲計賸餘，作為以後的建設經費。"],["賴委員惠員：好，部長，趕快處理統一發票的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，要更方便的。"],["賴委員惠員：能不能讓老百姓有確切的小確幸就看你了。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席（顏委員寬恒代）：謝謝賴召委，謝謝部長。接下來我們請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"156996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156996","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87e099f03c0b6ef72d117a57b012903f1cc5cdff58eca86e5d79bf6ad6b7fd95895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"10:05:31 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態性塞車基隆市他們現在跟台北交接的國道1號上面有常態性塞車那時候交通部部長也跟盜運說要給本席說有關這個臨時入權撥用的這個study那現在我據我剛剛才看三分鐘之前現在基隆跟台北還在塞車那我想請問有關這個臨時如果遇到臨時入權"},{"start":49.723,"end":74.137,"text":"需要解決交通問題請問這個研究報告做好了沒有?這個我上次有跟委員報告我們會來著手進行那這個部分是不是請局長來跟您回答跟委員報告因為現在的法令規定本來就有就是說塞子因為一般的客運它雖然有它行駛的路線不過就是說基本上在擁塞或是事故然後這一條路線它已經阻塞了不能就是行駛的"},{"start":74.697,"end":97.962,"text":"他當然可以就是說行使其他的替代路線那這個部分的話法令有規定那我們也請客運業者就是提出就是說他們如果說在比如說這個高速公路有相關的一個用塞的話他比如說從國一改走國三或者是其他的一個路線這部分沒有問題我希望未來這個SOP這個能夠盡快能夠越來越及時只要業者提出申請我們這邊就會來處理"},{"start":98.482,"end":125.789,"text":"那可能這邊也要不是只有公路局還有高工局也可能要配合一下因為哪一條高速公路出問題的時候這是對民眾對基隆也對基隆所有通行圖最關心的事情好 謝謝兩位局長再來我想請觀光署的周署長好 周署長部長跟署長我想請問一下歐盟總人口多少人"},{"start":129.818,"end":134.126,"text":"歐盟的數字?沒關係,我跟你說差不多4.5億那請問一下東南亞各國的人口總共多少人?"},{"start":140.798,"end":166.793,"text":"東南亞的話我們是算新南向是18國那如果南亞是6國那這個部分只有講東南亞的話呢大概就是目前的差不多6億6億左右因為印度的話就已經佔了印度不算對印度跟東南亞是分開的因為我們的觀光政策來講現在是補助東南亞的旅客來台一個人5000塊應該超過6億了對超過6億對超過6億"},{"start":169.935,"end":190.102,"text":"我們現在看到的就是說這就是本席很不能理解的地方歐盟4.5億那東南亞6億加起來差不多10.5億將近11億的人口那我們中間還要補助他們的這些來台的來台旅遊的費用那我們直接看到據我所知最新的報告差不多中國大陸將近14億人口對吧"},{"start":191.109,"end":208.353,"text":"那我們很明顯的就是說我有點不太理解以商業的角度來看或發展產業的角度來看我們很直接的去掠過我們旁邊的14億人口的市場然後我們一天到晚想去拉至少要跟我們差不多16個小時以上的飛機或者是我們還要補貼人家5000塊的顧客來去衝我們現在的人數"},{"start":214.255,"end":231.825,"text":"我如果看了沒有說因為這份報告這份都是目前我看到的報告我們現在報告已經跟我講說我們現在只要有從台灣到大陸的飛機載客率已經恢復到如同2019年的時候的將近八成的載客率是不是真的啊"},{"start":232.546,"end":234.528,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"},{"start":248.345,"end":273.962,"text":"但是我們目前的航班跟航點其實比過去是減少滿多的這就是我等一下要提的東西不好意思部長既然您都講了因為我們現在在我現在看到的數字就是說我們現在差不多希望說我們今年能夠衝到1000萬人次不過目前來講我們差不多在750萬左右老實講現在已經是11月28號我們有很多很多的因素導致說我們現在這個回復到這個我記得沒有錯是2019年我們的人數是1184萬人次是史上最高"},{"start":278.905,"end":297.196,"text":"可是如果說剛好也是輪流查了一下就是我們最高峰的時候光大陸的人次來到台灣就差不多418萬那如果跟現在750萬加起來剛好回到2019年那個時候當然2019年的時候那個大陸的旅客也沒有這麼多但是很明顯的就是說我們現在"},{"start":298.834,"end":323.489,"text":"因為我們的專攻人數的不夠多所以我們現在實質上我們觀光產業的產值逆差高達7300億當然我們可以講說因為天災、因為颱風我們可以講很多理由但是我想請問署長我們是不是還要去爭取大陸旅遊客這塊市場跟委員報告一下2019年的時候入客是271"},{"start":325.33,"end":340.511,"text":"那您剛剛那個數字是四年2015年418對但是我們在算的時候是這樣子就是我們歡迎各國來部長那個署長我只是想很單純說我們還不要爭取大陸大陸旅遊市場我們也歡迎啊也歡迎啊沒有說不歡迎啊"},{"start":340.751,"end":356.723,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話我本席常常聽過一句話啦其實本席像是不是預設立場的人我想部長可能很能夠理解那一句話叫戰爭是政治的延續而政治是為了經濟而服務到目前為止臺灣都能夠希望能夠發展成為所謂的觀光大國"},{"start":359.145,"end":386.406,"text":"因為觀光財基本上是成本目前我們知道除了不計垃圾跟社會成本之外觀光財應該是目前來講成本最少的財源所以說當我們的觀光業者我們要發展觀光大國但是我們很刻意的去忽略到全世界將近快五分之一的人口去忽略到這麼大一塊市場的時候那這樣其實對我們的觀光業者其實也難怪他們會叫苦連天啦"},{"start":386.966,"end":402.012,"text":"所以這邊我會在這邊本席會建請我們的會強烈建議建請我們的觀光署甚至交通部來跟路委會來談一下有沒有可能只要恢復到在在這個疫情之前的直航點就好了"},{"start":402.532,"end":419.924,"text":"像幾個點我就直接講像是說濟南、長沙、西安、合肥、南昌、天津、溫州等等這些都是在疫情前我們有的執行點這不是說我們現在去設新的航點而是疫情前我們就有執行點是不是能夠把它恢復我想部長跟署長認為呢"},{"start":421.641,"end":447.789,"text":"是 這個部分我們的立場還是很希望能夠多一些觀光客來臺灣包含中國的觀光客我們也都很歡迎不過非航的部分其實有一些是商業上面的機制就是說它的需求有沒有到如果有到的時候業者就會提出申請提出申請就看國安單位跟陸委會那邊他們的判斷這個部分我們當然是希望說多一些人可以過來我們是非常歡迎的"},{"start":448.19,"end":449.577,"text":"所以從交通部的觀點來講是樂觀其成 對吧"},{"start":452.731,"end":480.394,"text":"好那希望說我今天因為質詢都有都有在錄影都有在各方面都回答那我是認為是說與其一天到晚觀光業者不停的向我們請命說我們需要活下去我們需要活下去不如就是說明明那邊有一塊很大的市場那我們不去談然後我們一天到晚去找這東南亞的客人我們要付他200塊美金我覺得這個思維邏輯上好像哪裡不太對勁委員有一個釐清一下就是我們全球啊每個國家都有些優惠措施"},{"start":481.135,"end":482.597,"text":"黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人、 黃健豪等17人"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":205,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時5分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長跟公路局陳局長、高公局趙局長。"],["主席：陳部長、陳局長、趙局長。"],["林委員沛祥：部長、兩位局長。我記得上次本席在質詢的時候，因為現在基隆市跟臺北交接的國道一號上面有常態性塞車，那時候交通部部長也答應要給本席有關臨時路權撥用的study，剛剛3分鐘之前我看基隆跟臺北還在塞車，我想請問，如果遇到臨時路權需要解決交通問題，請問這個study做好了沒有？這個研究報告做好沒？"],["陳部長世凱：有，這個我上次有跟委員報告，我們會來著手進行，這個部分是不是請局長來跟您回答？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，現在的法令規定本來就有，因為一般客運雖然有它行駛的路線，不過基本上在壅塞或是發生事故時，這一條路線已經阻塞不能行駛了，它當然可以行駛其他替代路線，針對這個部分，法令有規定，我們也請客運業者提出，他們如果在高速公路遇有相關壅塞狀況，比如可以從國一改走國三，或者是其他的路線，這個部分法令上沒有問題。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我希望未來這個SOP能夠儘快，能夠越來越及時。"],["陳部長世凱：只要業者提出申請，我們這邊就會來處理。"],["林委員沛祥：好，可能不是只有公路局，還有高公局可能也要配合一下，因為哪一條高速公路出問題的時候，這是民眾及基隆所有通勤族最關心的事情。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝兩位局長。再來我想請觀光署周署長。"],["主席：周署長。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：部長跟署長，我想請問一下，歐盟總人口多少人？"],["陳部長世凱：我不曉得。"],["周署長永暉：歐盟的數字可能要再查一下。"],["林委員沛祥：沒關係，我跟你說，差不多是4.5億。我想請問一下東南亞各國人口總共多少人？"],["周署長永暉：東南亞的話，我們是算新南向是8國，如果南亞是6國……"],["林委員沛祥：總數。"],["周署長永暉：這個部分只有講東南亞的話，大概目前就是……"],["林委員沛祥：差不多6億。"],["周署長永暉：6億左右。因為印度占的比例就已經很高。"],["林委員沛祥：印度不算，印度跟東南亞是分開的。"],["周署長永暉：對，所以東南亞是不含南亞。"],["林委員沛祥：因為我們的觀光政策來講，現在是補助東南亞的旅客來臺一個人5,000塊。"],["周署長永暉：應該超過6億了，因為印尼……"],["林委員沛祥：我們現在看到的就是……這就是本席很不能理解的地方，歐盟4.5億，東南亞6億，加起來差不多10.5億，將近11億的人口，我們中間還要補助他們來臺旅遊的費用。據我所知，最新的報告顯示中國大陸差不多將近14億人口，對吧？我們很明顯的就是……我有點不太理解，以商業的角度或發展產業的角度來看，我們很直接去略過我們旁邊14億人口的市場，然後我們一天到晚想去拉至少跟我們飛行距離相差16個小時以上，或者是我們還要補貼人家5,000塊的旅客，去衝我們現在的人數。我如果看得沒有錯，因為這是目前我看到的報告，現在的報告已經跟我說，現在只要有從臺灣到大陸的飛機，載客率已經恢復到如同2019年將近八成的載客率，是不是真的？"],["周署長永暉：還沒有恢復到……"],["林委員沛祥：那表示我這邊目前機場公司跟航空公司給我的數字是錯的？"],["周署長永暉：就是現在已經復航的部分。"],["林委員沛祥：復航的已經是八成了，是不是？"],["周署長永暉：針對復航的部分大概是七成到九成。"],["林委員沛祥：八成啦！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前載客率七成多到八成沒有錯啦！"],["林委員沛祥：對啦！"],["陳部長世凱：但是我們目前的航班跟航點其實比過去減少滿多的。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我等一下要提的東西，不好意思，部長，既然你都講了，我現在看到的數字是我們希望今年能夠衝到一千萬人次，不過目前來講，我們差不多在七百五十萬左右，老實講，現在已經是11月18號了，我們有很多很多因素導致現在恢復到……我記得沒有錯的話，2019年我們的人數是1,184萬人次，是史上最高。我也查了一下，我們最高峰的時候，光是大陸來到臺灣的人次就差不多是418萬，如果跟現在的750萬加起來，剛好回到2019年那個時候。當然2019年的時候大陸的旅客也沒有這麼多，但是很明顯的就是因為我們的觀光人數不夠多，所以現在實質上我們的觀光產業產值逆差高達7,300億，當然我們可以說是因為天災、因為颱風，我們可以講很多理由。但是我想請問署長，我們是不是還要去爭取大陸旅遊客這塊市場？"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告一下，2019年的時候陸客是271，您剛剛那個數字是……"],["林委員沛祥：2015年是418。"],["周署長永暉：對。但是我們在算的時候是這樣子，就是我們歡迎各國來……"],["林委員沛祥：署長，我只是很單純地想說我們還要不要爭取大陸旅遊市場這一塊？"],["周署長永暉：我們也歡迎，沒有說不歡迎。"],["林委員沛祥：如果是這樣子的話，本席常常聽過一句話，其實本席一向不是預設立場的人，我想部長可能很能夠理解，有一句話叫：戰爭是政治的延續，而政治是為了經濟而服務。到目前為止，臺灣都希望能夠發展成為所謂的觀光大國，因為觀光財基本上是目前我們知道，除了不計垃圾跟社會成本之外，觀光財應該是目前來講成本最少的財源。所以當我們要發展成為觀光大國，但是我們很刻意去忽略掉全世界將近快五分之一的人口，忽略掉這麼大一塊市場的時候，其實對我們的觀光業者來說，也難怪他們會叫苦連天啦！所以這邊本席強烈建議，也建請觀光署、甚至交通部跟陸委會談一下，有沒有可能只要恢復到疫情之前的直航點就好了？幾個點我就直接講，像是濟南、長沙、西安、合肥、南昌、天津、溫州等等，這些都是在疫情前我們有的直航點，這不是我們現在去設新的航點，而是疫情前我們就有的直航點，是不是能夠把它恢復？部長跟署長認為呢？"],["陳部長世凱：針對這個部分，我們的立場還是很希望能夠多一些觀光客來臺灣，包含中國的觀光客，我們也都很歡迎，不過，飛航的部分其實有一些是商業上面的機制，就是它的需求有沒有到，如果有到的時候，業者就會提出申請，提出申請就看國安單位跟陸委會那邊他們的判斷，這個部分我們當然是希望多一些人可以過來，我們是非常歡迎的。"],["林委員沛祥：所以從交通部的觀點來講是樂觀其成，對嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員沛祥：好，今天的質詢都有錄影，在各方面也都有回答，我是認為，與其一天到晚觀光業者不停向我們請命，說他們需要活下去、他們需要活下去，不如就是明明那邊有一塊很大的市場，我們不去談，卻一天到晚去找在東南亞的客人，還要付他們200塊美金，我覺得這個思維邏輯上好像哪裡不太對勁。"],["周署長永暉：委員，有一個釐清一下，就是我們對全球每個國家都有一些優惠措施，這些優惠措施其實是一體適用的。"],["林委員沛祥：我想我們對大陸客從來沒有任何優惠措施，對吧？"],["周署長永暉：這個的話，我們有些踩線團有時候也幫忙。"],["林委員沛祥：老實講，我會覺得……"],["陳部長世凱：港澳的部分。"],["周署長永暉：港澳是沒問題。"],["林委員沛祥：至於優惠措施，其實我們如果觀光實力強，是讓他們儘量來花錢，而不是我們拿錢出去給人家花，我覺得從本席的角度來講，那個會比較務實一點。謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員。","接下來有請李昆澤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林德福","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","黃健豪","游顥","許宇甄","林倩綺","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","林俊憲","蔡其昌","何欣純","陳雪生","許智傑","邱若華","賴士葆","羅智強","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","林月琴","陳培瑜","鄭正鈐","陳冠廷"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部公路局局長、法務部及內政部警政署就「偽變造車牌或其它\n隱匿車牌方式之查緝與防制暨如何有效杜絕無照駕駛猖獗之亂象」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查(一)委員洪孟楷等24人、(二)委員黃健豪等17人、(三)委員林俊憲等17人、(四)委員王\n鴻薇等18人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鍾佳濱等19\n人、(六)委員許宇甄等17人、(七)委員陳素月等20人分別擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)委員林德福等16人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二\n條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐富癸等19人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第十二條\n及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員傅崐萁等20人、(二)委員陳雪生等29人分別擬\n具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展\n觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林倩綺等21人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀\n光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人擬具「發展觀光條\n例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」案及(七)委員游顥等38人擬具\n「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"11310302_00002"}}},{"id":"156995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e871ba77d03316a124c117a57b012903f1cc5cdff58eca86e5d2dc82480404c6b195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:56:47 - 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是"},{"start":274.227,"end":298.386,"text":"我們說實在的我們我們宴會裡面的同仁都已經提了這些就代表什麼就代表是真的有必要針對法的基礎上去做改變然後我們的黃換部分要去做創新所以我很簡單啊部長因為時間的關係今天看起來案子也蠻多的我也不要利用時間我給你建議啦"},{"start":300.347,"end":318.428,"text":"有時候你們在編列預算到國外去考察我不曉得你們在考察什麼東西這才是真正要考察人家的做法借鏡國外即刻提升防衛你去看看人家先進國家我跟你講"},{"start":319.775,"end":344.478,"text":"你雖然牌照看起來是一樣但是我警政單位只要一測就知道因為報私撤銷那個車牌我跟你講我一照就很清楚耶人家這些國外特殊的特殊的字體這很重要第二無線攝影頻道的技術"},{"start":346.175,"end":357.48,"text":"第三、黃維晶片這些人家都在做阿那為什麼我們不做阿一直在講91年講到現在12年都沒有解決之道"},{"start":358.735,"end":376.209,"text":"每一年就是在講這個假車牌的問題所以我說實在的我們當民意代表的人看到這樣我們以重心長不是說我們針對問題只有指責但是沒有建議那我們建議你們又不做"},{"start":378.911,"end":392.062,"text":"這個假車牌所有問題你可以去看一看重大犯案通通都是假車牌而引起所以這些部長我真的非常以重心長的建議"},{"start":393.363,"end":408.394,"text":"借重國外的技術人家是馬上可以看得出來的我警察機關只要一射我就知道你這個是假車牌人家都可以做為什麼我們不能做不要忘了我們的技術我們各方面"},{"start":409.415,"end":436.906,"text":"都不亞於任何一個國家欸那為什麼我們都不做?就是因為我們不作為啦!保證!過去我對你做空間的啦!委員長的建議非常的具體我也請公路局這邊大家研議一下怎麼樣讓它在防偽的這方面怎麼樣做提升這個部分確實是有需要的我們會盡量看出最後我要必須要去提醒部長啦吼無照駕駛的部分不是只有提高就可以解決"},{"start":437.786,"end":465.302,"text":"這些要社會教育社會教育我們輔導的機制也是變重對 所以這些東西真的我還是希望希望部長在這個部分像黃偉這些技術不是不能做無照駕駛、平船這個也是非常嚴重你看看發生命案的都是無照駕駛有照駕駛最起碼的話他有交通交通的這些規則的基本觀念"},{"start":465.982,"end":482.669,"text":"但是無照駕駛他不曉得啊這些東西真的要廣為宣傳然後然後這個部分加重其刑之外我說實在很多問題只要有刑責我告訴你現在喝酒酒駕"},{"start":483.669,"end":509.87,"text":"造勢那不是很重的刑罰處罰嗎這些當然是有嚇阻作用雖然民主國家但是不能解決在這個部分真的一定要去做所以我最後還是要建議國外偽造的這些方法要盡快刻不容緩趕快研究去吸收不然我告訴你你們交通部所有的國外倉房我跟你講今年審議算我絕對把你們刪掉"},{"start":514.302,"end":515.819,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 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邀請 呃 邀請局長邀請局長謝謝主席 沈伯洋 早局長好 這個 雖然今天是AI的題目 但一開始我想問一個時事 這個時事其實跟AI沒有直接的關係 但其實是非常類似的問題 就是 這個"},{"start":21.058,"end":50.18,"text":"媒體的這個官方說法我剛剛看到在媒體區好像你已經有回答過這個問題了所以我就不贅述但總之我先講右邊這件事右邊其實是一個馬斯克相關的影片那這個影片呢都是從頭到尾的字幕就在講說他要撤出啦什麼之類的但他的裡面講的英文根本不是那麼一回事那就是亂上字幕那這個在澤倫斯基之前很多的影片俄羅斯也都做過類似的事中國也做過類似的事就是澤倫斯基講了一堆話那下面上了一些完全無關的字幕"},{"start":50.82,"end":67.348,"text":"那這種事情雖然是早期從到現在一直的操作方式但昨天發生了一個更麻煩的事情就是有這個拜喜會那拜喜會的這個場合就像畫面上看到的這個樣子但是央視他自己在旁白的時候其實裡面根本就沒有人在講賴清德"},{"start":67.828,"end":94.543,"text":"但他旁白就講了這句話賴清德和民進黨當局的台獨本性然後呢我們台灣呢就有這個還有金華社還有台灣的報紙跟媒體就直接把這一個呢當作是一個事實來報導但我有看到有一些媒體就比較平衡他就是他怎麼報導他就講說現場完全沒有提到但中國的官方文件去講了這件事那我覺得這個現在對我們來講有一個很麻煩的地方是在於說"},{"start":95.383,"end":117.1,"text":"台灣有一些他會直接講就是把中國的這個東西都copy過來講但問題就出來說假設我們今天出來闢謠說我們都沒有聽到賴清德結果他們就自己說沒有他們就是在內部的時候他們自己有聽到那到最後就是有理說不清所以在這邊我想問一下就是說目前國安局對像這一類方式的比較好的回應的說法會是什麼"},{"start":118.23,"end":134.583,"text":"對,就這個問題來講,我們當然在第一時間又去比對白宮他對外的公開的新聞稿那也去研判中共領導人在國際場合一般在處理類似事情的一個說法那確實像委員所提到的不能排除可能是中共的官宣官媒"},{"start":135.083,"end":154.782,"text":"在會後刻意的操作那因為在APEC的期間不只是剛剛委員所提到這個案我們也注意到中共跟新加坡的領導人在會談過程當中似乎也有這種會後刻意的新聞的操作跟處理包括認為說新加坡的總理黃總理曾經在會中提到了克尊一中原則"},{"start":155.943,"end":173.331,"text":"對,所以菲律賓也有,印尼也有對,很多國家似乎在會後都有遭受到中共在媒波處理上的一個刻意的手法所以各國也都很警示對於跟中共的會談,事後怎麼樣有自己的版本避免到中共單方面片面的說辭這變成是大家共同關注的議題"},{"start":174.411,"end":194.382,"text":"當然希望說媒體朋友們在報導相關的議題過程當中也能夠有多方的查證。對,非常感謝局長講這一個,因為如果我們跟國人講說,比如說之前印尼、菲律賓等等的國家也都發生過這個明明會面的時候沒有講的東西,結果中國自己在事後的這一個文件講出來。"},{"start":195.924,"end":211.925,"text":"講出來以後我們不是要去爭持他到底真還是假因為這種東西有理說不清但可以去強調說中國很喜歡在事後去講一些你在公開的找不到的內容那這樣的話我覺得對國人以後在看到中國官方說法的時候會有一些警惕"},{"start":212.546,"end":239.114,"text":"那也不會去落入對方的陷阱就是說沒有啊私底下他們偷偷有講到啊什麼之類的不用去爭執那樣的一個細節但這也是還是我擔心的就我今天早上就特別去把這個頭版都拍一拍當然我認為比較重要當然是我們昨天贏球但是呢像這個頭版某報的頭版就直接講說首度點名賴清德但這一件事情明明就是沒有在現場發生是後來官方的文件但這個在頭版"},{"start":240.134,"end":263.323,"text":"但中國時報他的講法就是路芳新聞稿點名他就講得比較清楚說這個不是現實發生的但是是他新聞稿點名的那我覺得也藉這個機會我們覺得真的因為台灣現在是一個這個隨時有可能會被入侵的一個國家那如果今天是在危急的時候我們的媒體是直接把中國新華社的內容直接當作我們的頭版來報導"},{"start":264.784,"end":266.705,"text":"並沒有說他為何這樣報導,他的報導跟事實不一樣,廣泛地在台灣發送,我認為這會是國安的危機。這可能是個別倫理上的問題,但是國安局這次的整理,直接跟媒體的回應,之後我們應該繼續往這個方向邁進。"},{"start":284.492,"end":307.518,"text":"當然這個雖然跟AI沒有直接的關係但是這也是我之前比較擔心的事情就是AI來講中國的技術AI的技術當然好但有時候他不一定需要用AI他可以使用非常簡單的譬如說真實的影片他影片從頭到尾都不是AI都是真實的但是譬如說配錯誤的字幕那現在配錯誤的字幕是第一步他下次可能是他配錯誤的語音他下次語音是真的字幕是假的嗎"},{"start":307.978,"end":334.527,"text":"那他AI可以用在譬如說他語音是錯的然後字幕也是錯的就一步一步往下做然後讓台灣人越來越習慣越來越搞不清楚這樣的機制那我有看到不管是事務發布跟那個局裡面的報告裡面都有提到就是這一個近期之內有越來越多的造假我自己也被造假了那這個其實我覺得還不是最大的重點是最近剛好事務發布對這個對不起這可能要請次長請那個一經次長不好意思就是說"},{"start":335.652,"end":357.889,"text":"剛剛忘了先講那這個我記得這幾天剛好發生了我們很多財經的粉專不是被下架嗎然後呢因為Meta本來就有一個詐騙相關的回報機制那所以就開始有人說會不會是書發部在做那我有看到這個次長有回答那我覺得這個真的有時候是不知道是造謠還是怎樣但我覺得我現在有一個問題就是說我們詐騙是有一個跟Facebook回報的機制"},{"start":360.211,"end":369.568,"text":"是那如果是跟Deepfake有關因為Deepfake有可能是詐欺那他如果用在詐欺上面我們直接回報這個沒問題但像這樣的方式能不能被歸類在詐欺"},{"start":373.447,"end":391.159,"text":"這個的確是一個很好的問題像這樣的Deepfake它是不是可以構成詐欺這個的確是很有爭議的然後像這樣的事情其實不能由我們行政部門直接來認定因為我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家有時候這種事實"},{"start":392.98,"end":416.916,"text":"是否有就是詐欺這個最終還是必須由那個司法機關必須由檢調機構去調查然後由司法機關去做決定的這個相較於那些威權國家威權國家其實很簡單就是政府一下令所有的事情當可能當天一個小時之內都解決了那我們民主國家事實上我們有時候覺得說我們好像一隻手被綁在後面在做事情"},{"start":417.176,"end":438.952,"text":"但是這個就是自由民主的代價這個是我們未來非常大的挑戰但是我們還是必須想辦法去面對這個是我比較擔心的事情就是說因為我們現在打造專法有了嘛但是因為詐欺是限定的詐欺就是我們刑法的詐欺區裁所以它是詐騙金錢那詐騙金錢呢我們今天用這個詐騙的定義去跟各個平台去做回報什麼的這個我覺得是合理"},{"start":439.853,"end":455.966,"text":"如果我們要把這個翻成詐欺,他沒有直接財產損害嗎?他不是用我的名義在買股票嗎?賣股票但是所以會不會可以乾脆另辟蹊徑就是說我們不要用詐欺這一條路徑,我們就用Deepfake當路徑就是說去跟社群平台談說有一個是Deepfake專門回報的路徑"},{"start":456.747,"end":473.957,"text":"那以後只要出現過不過這個是在抖音上那是另外的抖音不會理我們但是如果說今天是在Facebook在YT上面他們譬如說他們有標記為AI他是Deepfake有哪幾個標準是我們可以跟他們回報直接做另外一條途徑看社發部有沒有機會去跟這些社群平台談一下"},{"start":474.737,"end":503.369,"text":"我們現在持續在跟這些主要的社群平台做溝通之前他們比較不願意跟我們配合常常說因為他們的總部在美國或者在日本所以他們沒辦法去影響這些總部的決策經過我們這幾個月來不斷地跟他們溝通以後他們的態度有比較鬆動我們後來也發現說因為像臉書他們在台灣他們的法尊部門基本上只有兩個人然後他們根本管不到他的業務部門"},{"start":504.369,"end":525.943,"text":"所以我們後來的方式就是我們直接去跟他們新加坡的亞太總部直接做溝通然後接下來我們就直接到美國去找他們的總部我們跟他們溝通然後我們也透過那個美國的政界的人士當他們來訪問台灣跟我們訴發部做會談的時候我們就跟他們抱怨我們也希望透過美國的輿論以及美國的政府部門對這個Facebook施壓因為美國的"},{"start":528.164,"end":553.097,"text":"國會以及行政部門對於Facebook這也是面臨同樣的問題他們也是覺得很頭大所以他們覺得感同身受所以我們現在就是這幾個月來那個不管是Facebook、Google或是Line他們的態度都有改善那我們事實上對Deepfake這方面只要我們提出的那個解釋是合理的我相信他們都會配合那就如同委員所講的其實現在最大的問題其實是在TikTok"},{"start":553.778,"end":570.357,"text":"對,因為這個機制可能必須要趕快建立因為變得越來越來越多啦那我們本來打詐的機制當然利益良善台灣詐騙卻很多啦但我個人認為啦這個就不用回答我認為中國才是最大的詐騙集團啦所以呢在這個政治上面呢如果我們現在遇到這樣那麼大型的這一種"},{"start":570.757,"end":584.611,"text":"用各式各樣的方式來做詐欺像這個是今年才出現過的事情我覺得也蠻扯就是這是今年9月才出現的事情是直接Deepfake 烏克蘭的外長的這個形象直接還去跟美國做跟參議員做視訊的連線"},{"start":586.653,"end":606.662,"text":"所以我在連線的過程以後他覺得怎麼有點怪怪的才趕快去通報所以這個已經不是說直接的影片在那邊是連跟你連線的那一個人都有問題了所以我覺得這個部分我們機智趕快建立因為一樣的事情有可能會發生在台灣那後面其實因為時間到了我沒有辦法再細問但是我看到數發部跟國安局在寫這一個AI的報告說因為畢竟AI"},{"start":607.782,"end":607.842,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":629.565,"end":658.551,"text":"DRPA他們現在有那個他們在去年開始有這個AI這個我猜次長很熟悉啦他們這個計畫他們直接請大家來攻啦然後請大家來攻然後去把這個漏洞找出來啊什麼等等之類的因為防禦這件事情是我們現在馬上可以做剛剛我記得局長跟次長在回答的時候都有講過我們已經有用AI在防禦那這部分可以強化那AI要應用在紅隊的這個有創意的這個部分到底會發展什麼樣我們不是很確定但至少我看OpenAI的報告放在假消息的部分他說已經有說服力了"},{"start":659.011,"end":673.257,"text":"所以當他已經開始有說服力我們先不要管一般的資安攻擊但如果是假消息還有像剛剛講Deepfake這個部分有可能是必須要先去注意那我這個後面當然有一些建議還有一些法律上的問題如果有機會的話我可能再去交通委員會再問一下這個部長或次長是謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請局長。"],["主席：請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，沈委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：局長好。雖然今天的題目是AI，但一開始我想問一個時事，這個時事其實跟AI沒有直接的關係，但其實是非常類似的問題，媒體的官方說法，我剛剛看到在媒體區受訪時你好像已經有回答過這問題了，所以我就不再贅述。我先講右邊這件事，右邊是與馬斯克有關的影片，該影片的字幕從頭到尾都在講他要撤出什麼之類的，不過其實裡面講的英文根本不是那麼一回事，所以就是亂上字幕！在澤倫斯基之前很多的影片裡，俄羅斯也做過類似的事，中國也做過類似的事，就是澤倫斯基講了一堆話，而底下上了一些完全無關的字幕。這是從早期從到現在一直有的操作方式，不過昨天發生了一件更麻煩的事情，也就是拜習會。拜習會的場合就是畫面上看到的樣子，裡面根本就沒有人講到賴清德，可是央視在旁白的時候講了這句話：賴清德和民進黨當局的台獨本性。然後新華社、還有臺灣的報紙跟媒體，就直接把這個當作事實來報導。我看到有些媒體報導比較平衡，說現場完全沒有提到，但中國的官方文件講了這件事。現在對我們來講，有一個很麻煩的地方在於，臺灣有些人會把中國的東西直接copy過來講。問題出在假設我們今天出來闢謠說，我們都沒有聽到講賴清德！結果他們就自己說，沒有，但是在內部時他們有聽到，最後就是有理說不清。在這邊我想請問，目前國安局對這一類方式的新聞比較好的回應說法會是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：就這問題來講，我們第一時間也有去比對白宮對外的公開新聞稿，也會去研判中共領導人在國際場合、一般在處理類似事情的說法。確實像委員所提到的，不能排除可能是中共的官宣、官媒在會後的刻意操作！在APEC期間，其實不只剛剛委員所提到的個案，我們也注意到在中共與新加坡領導人會談過程當中，似乎也有這種會後刻意的新聞操作及處理，包括認為新加坡黃總理曾經在會中提到恪遵一中原則與反對臺獨……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，菲律賓也有過，印尼也有過。"],["蔡局長明彥：有很多國家似乎在會後都遭到中共在媒播上以刻意手法處理，所以對於跟中共的會談，各國都很警示，看事後怎麼樣有自己的版本，避免成為中共單方面、片面的說詞，這也變成大家共同關注的議題。當然，希望媒體朋友們在報導相關的議題過程中能多方查證。"],["沈委員伯洋：非常感謝局長講到這點。如果我們跟國人說之前印尼、菲律賓等國家也都發生過明明會面時沒有講的東西，結果中國在事後的文件講出來。講出來以後，我們也不是要去爭執到底真或假，因為這種東西有理說不清。但我們可以強調，中國很喜歡在事後去講一些你在公開時找不到的內容，這樣以後國人在看到中國的官方說法時會有一些警惕，也不會落入對方陷阱，甚至認為沒有啊，他們私底下有偷偷講到什麼之類的，不用去爭執那樣的細節。但這也是我擔心的，所以我今天早上就特別把頭版都拍過，不過比較重要的當然是我們昨天贏球。但某報的頭版就直接講「首度點名賴清德」。其實這件事明明沒有在現場發生，是後來才出現在官方文件，卻刊在頭版。至於中國時報的講法就是「陸方新聞稿點名」，這就講得比較清楚，表示這不是現實發生的，是新聞稿點名的。我覺得臺灣現在是一個隨時可能會被入侵的國家，如果在危急時，我們的媒體是把中國新華社的內容直接當作頭版來報導，也沒有講為什麼這樣報導，報導跟事實到底一不一樣，就廣泛地在臺灣發送，我認為這會是國安危機，這可能是個別倫理上的問題，而國安局這次是整理後直接跟媒體回應，我想之後也應該繼續往這方向邁進。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：這雖然跟AI沒有直接關係，但這也是我之前比較擔心的。就AI來講，中國的AI技術當然好，不過有時候不一定需要用AI，他可以使用非常簡單的，譬如真實的影片。也就是說，影片從頭到尾都不是AI，都是真實的，卻配上錯誤的字幕。其實配錯誤的字幕是第一步，下次可能是配上錯誤的語音！現在語音是真的，字幕是假的，至於AI則可以讓語音是錯的，字幕也是錯的，一步一步往下做，讓臺灣人越來越習慣，越來越搞不清楚這樣的機制。不管是數發部或國安局報告都有提到，近期之內有越來越多的造假，像我自己也被造假了。這個其實還不是最大的重點，最近剛好數發部……對不起，這可能要請教林次長。這幾天剛好很多財經粉專被下架，由於Meta本來就有詐騙回報的相關機制，所以開始有人說，會不會是數發部做的？我看到次長有回答，讓我覺得這真的不知道是造謠還是怎樣。我現在有一個問題，詐騙是不是有向Facebook回報的機制？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：如果跟Deepfake有關呢？因為Deepfake有可能是詐欺，如果是詐欺的話我們直接回報，這個沒問題；但像這樣的方式能不能歸類在詐欺？"],["林次長宜敬：這的確是一個很好的問題。像這樣的Deepfake是不是可以構成詐欺？這的確是很有爭議的。不過這樣的事其實不能由行政部門直接認定，因為臺灣是一個自由民主法治的國家，對於是否為詐欺，最終必須由檢調機關調查，由司法機關決定。相較於威權國家，威權國家很簡單，就是政府一下令，所有事情可能當天、甚至一個小時之內就解決了。至於我們民主國家，有時候會覺得好像有一隻手被綁在後面來做事情，但這就是自由民主的代價，這也是我們未來非常大的挑戰，不過我們還是必須想辦法去面對。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這是我比較擔心的。我們現在已經有了打詐專法，但詐欺是限定的，所謂詐欺就是刑法的詐欺取財，是詐騙金錢。如果是詐騙金錢的話，那麼我們用詐騙的定義去向各平臺做回報，我覺得合理；但如果要將這個視為詐欺的話，但它並沒有直接造成財產損害，也不是用我的名義買賣股票。所以可否乾脆另闢蹊徑？也就是不要用詐欺這一條路徑，而用Deepfake當路徑，跟社群平臺談設立Deepfake回報的專門路徑？以後只要出現過……不過這個是在抖音上，所以是另外一回事，而且抖音不會理我們。但如果是在Facebook、在YT上，譬如沒有標記為AI，是Deepfake，有哪幾個標準是我們可以跟他們回報，直接做另外一條途徑，看數發部有沒有機會去跟這些社群平臺談一下？"],["林次長宜敬：是，我們現在持續跟這些主要的社群平臺做溝通，之前他們比較不願意跟我們配合，還推說總部在美國或在日本，所以沒辦法影響總部的決策。但經過幾個月不斷地溝通，他們的態度有比較鬆動。我們後來也發現，臉書在臺灣的法遵部門基本上只有兩個人，根本管不到業務部門！所以我們後來直接去跟他們在新加坡的亞太總部溝通，接下來就直接到美國總部溝通，也透過美國政界人士，當他們來臺灣訪問，與數發部會談時，我們就跟他們抱怨，希望透過美國輿論以及美國政府部門來對Facebook施壓。美國國會以及行政部門對Facebook也面臨同樣問題，他們也覺得很頭大，所以他們感同身受。這幾個月來，不管是Facebook、Google或LINE的態度都有改善。至於Deepfake，只要我們提出的解釋是合理的，相信他們都會配合。如同委員所講的，現在最大的問題其實是在TikTok！"],["沈委員伯洋：所以這個機制必須趕快建立，因為會變得越來越多！打詐機制固然立意良善，臺灣詐騙卻還是很多，不過我個人認為中國才是最大的詐騙集團，但這個就不用回答了。在政治上，我們現在遇到這種大型且用各式各樣的方式來做詐欺，像這就是今年才出現過的事，我覺得也蠻扯的。這是今年9月才出現的事，是直接Deepfake烏克蘭外長的形象，甚至跟美國參議員做視訊連線；在連線的過程裡，參議員覺得有點怪怪的才趕快通報！所以這已經不是影片了，而是連線的那一個人有問題！我覺得這部分機制要趕快建立，因為一樣的事情有可能會發生在臺灣。因為時間到了，後面我沒有辦法再細問。不過數發部跟國安局在所寫的AI報告裡說，畢竟AI在不同的層次裡，如果今天是在Level 2的話，自動化防禦比較沒什麼問題；如果做到紅隊程度的Level 3，畢竟現在要做到紅隊的創意還是要比較夠，但是防守這個部分是我們現在就可以做的，我看到美國有這個相關的……主席，不好意思，再給我30秒，就是DARPA，他們在去年開始有這個AI，這個我猜次長很熟悉啦，他們有這個計畫，他們直接請大家來攻，然後去把這個漏洞找出來等等之類的，因為防禦這件事情是我們現在馬上可以做的。我記得剛剛局長跟次長在回答的時候都有講過，我們已經有用AI在防禦，那這部分可以強化。","至於AI要應用在紅隊這個有創意的部分，到底會發展成什麼樣，我們不是很確定，但至少我看OpenAI的報告，放在假消息的部分，它說已經有說服力了，所以當它已經開始有說服力，我們先不要管一般的資安攻擊，但如果是假消息，還有像剛剛講的Deepfake這個部分有可能是必須要先去注意的。我後面當然有一些建議，還有一些法律上的問題，如果有機會的話，我可能會再去交通委員會問一下部長或次長。"],["林次長宜敬：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝主席，謝謝局長，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員。","接下來我們請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}},{"id":"156993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87ebb7baf968e138e5dc7cef15d9be6ba6c5cdff58eca86e5de63f43b907692b255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:05:42 - 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早安 你知道現在氣候變遷嗎 你說要提高我們的農業韌性 現在台北我們大家在穿毛衣 你知道彰化或者是更南現在是大太陽 代表了氣候環境的改變對我們農業的影響非常大 是不是 是"},{"start":50.79,"end":70.788,"text":"所以過去以來我們強力的就是在支持農業部的科技發展預算但是我發現了在我們大力支持希望我們科技發展可以協助農業生產的時候但是在農民端發生了一個問題"},{"start":72.089,"end":72.59,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":88.459,"end":104.079,"text":"不過我想可能委員誤會了齁我們科技發展它不只是只有農機具它所有的品種開發栽培技術改良跟採收或處理那農機的研究只是一小部分而已它並不是代表全部我知道"},{"start":104.54,"end":130.95,"text":"但是從農民他們所接觸的生產的積雪就是說他們接觸的所有的不管是肥料也好或者是種苗也好他們會認為他們的生產成本因為技術的提高而增加而他們的收入卻沒有因為技術的就是說他們這些成本的增加而有大幅度的增加這要怎麼解決?"},{"start":132.07,"end":155.829,"text":"我想要分兩個部分就是說品種的開發我想我們試驗單位會根據氣候變遷一些耐候性的這些品種那品種的推廣我們盡可能用推廣跟授權的方式處理那栽培技術的改良我們有農民學院還有非常多的這些說明會透過產交班來做溝通這個部分我想我們持續在做"},{"start":156.289,"end":156.749,"text":"對,他會認為說你補助的是機械。"},{"start":172.578,"end":172.718,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":188.646,"end":214.608,"text":"他們也會認為他們的生產成本就是業者就是那些機具業者的成本也相對的價格也會提高那造成他們成本的提高那現在又導致了我們可能我們需求不夠的情況下會導致他們沒有辦法獲得了一個就是說一個相當的收益啊是不是"},{"start":215.528,"end":231.936,"text":"這個我想我們已經一直在集合就是說通常我們補助下去的時候農機區的價格就變高了就變稀釋了所以我們在前端的這些市售的價格我們會不斷的去集合跟滾動檢討不要因為我們補助50%結果它的整個售價也提高了40%那這樣的話對農民來講也是一種負擔"},{"start":240.02,"end":259.558,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們會來努力盡量去結合相關的事項的部分。 這個問題很大。我知道。 這個問題是在於我們今天在審預算我們都一直在協助農業部的預算。 是。但是我們希望說農業部的不管是科技的發展等等的都可以協助農民但是"},{"start":259.998,"end":276.333,"text":"沒有想到反而造成了生產成本的增加那導致他們最後的收益沒有辦法如同生產成本等比例的增加這個時候就會造成大幅度的影響剛才也有委員質詢到相關於颱風的災損的申報"},{"start":280.776,"end":305.022,"text":"當然我們知道公務人員有公務人員應有的法則但是在於災損的申報重寬重延重檢這個部分目前在基層的確沒有辦法達到那這個部分農業部也需要來檢討怎麼樣子簡化流程目前的確流程沒有達到大幅度的簡化"},{"start":306.363,"end":331.552,"text":"我跟您報告應該在這個月底應該在11月底的時候我們會把新的天然災害救助辦法重新更新那有一部分就是我們過往比較大的災害農業部都會有主動公告在這次四個颱風就已經呈現它很快速的可是相對的我們也發現說當農業部主動公告的越快的時候那地方政府就用喊的就是希望中央總安公告理論上來講"},{"start":332.452,"end":336.055,"text":"農業部不可能面對所有的限制每一個品項所以後續的整個公告的程序我們會來做簡化"},{"start":350.689,"end":374.502,"text":"然後做更大的一個彈性的處理才能夠達到從寬的這個跟重塑的這個態度。從目前看來的確沒有辦法達到。就是大家都沒有辦法按照說天然災害的辦法重塑重建。特別是彰化、雲林、嘉義、台南它面積比較大的時候公所的人力不夠的時候造成它的速度會變慢。"},{"start":375.915,"end":391.043,"text":"對 這個部分 這應該也不是公所的那個 就是當農民申報的時候 你們對於到底是不是補助的範圍 因為有時候有耕期的問題 你們也沒有辦法 沒有 公道就確定 他申請以後就去現勘了"},{"start":391.903,"end":392.523,"text":"我想要知道你現在推的怎麼樣?"},{"start":423.193,"end":451.549,"text":"我想從現在目前開始有一個那個CS本身還有一個TGAP的部分那這個標章我們會鏈接到產交履歷的部分所以我們現在目前應該在那個保久乳的部分我們現在已經開始在處理這個CS的部分CS的部分還有產交履歷的部分那我們希望說透過產交履歷透過CS或TGAP的認證標章讓我們的消費者"},{"start":452.03,"end":454.788,"text":"為什麽從包周入開始?為什麽先入不行?"},{"start":455.808,"end":459.692,"text":"新的標章嗎?對,已經7月1號就設計過了。新的,已經貼在鮮乳標章了。已經改了。就是台灣的鮮乳標章。所以經過這個新的標章認證的就是台灣鮮乳。對對。那未來是連保酒乳也要同樣認證,是不是?也要認證,是這樣子的。"},{"start":483.432,"end":505.312,"text":"我想要知道的是現在食藥署對於這個臺灣鮮乳的標章的看法是怎麼樣?他不是對臺灣鮮乳標章是沒問題他是針對進口的長效鮮乳有沒有那個名稱他們有疑慮他們專家會議此不同的意見我們是希望說他用長效乳"},{"start":507.314,"end":530.7,"text":"不要先制,但是他們是覺得應該用長效先入。所以他們還是不認為,他們還是需要保留先入這個部分,是不是?對,因為這是衛福部他們專家會議的決定,但是我想我們還是持續的堅持我們的立場。好,那我還有一個意見,就是我們2025年傳統豬瘟是不是有可能會八針?"},{"start":533.004,"end":534.526,"text":"臺灣的傳統豬瘟,你們已經提出申請了是不是?"},{"start":534.526,"end":535.607,"text":"有沒有提出申請?"},{"start":535.607,"end":535.968,"text":"那有沒有可能拔針?"},{"start":535.968,"end":537.049,"text":"絕對我們應該是非常樂觀以對,如果國內對待時間不會再發生絕對沒問題。"},{"start":550.245,"end":567.379,"text":"好 那我希望說你們可以非常嚴謹的處理這件事情因為這牽涉到我們稻草要輸往日本的規定是不是對 因為稻草是我們臺灣農民在生產稻米的這個農廢馬那未來如果"},{"start":571.401,"end":588.986,"text":"對,如果未來可以變成一個資材,然後變成一個可賣的產品的時候,到時候會能夠銷往日本,是不是?是。我們還是會跟檢疫談。不好意思,我把這個問完。日本這個一點點時間。半分鐘。好,半分鐘。不要再按鈴了。"},{"start":596.846,"end":624.18,"text":"是不是?所以我們這兩個是有聯動的那這也會協助農民減少我們這個剩餘資產然後能夠把它變成渴賣那也可以增加農民的收益對不對?那你應該要想辦法增加農民的收益嘛那你不能夠都不增加他的收益然後就要提高他生產成本他們怎麼可以接受?是不是?好謝謝好謝謝謝會委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":252,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時6分）謝謝主席，我想要請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長早安。你知道現在氣候變遷，你說要提高我們的農業韌性，現在臺北大家在穿毛衣，你知道彰化或者是更南部，現在是大太陽，代表了氣候、環境的改變對農業的影響非常大，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以過去以來，我們強力在支持農業部的科技發展預算，但是我發現在我們大力支持，希望科技發展可以協助農業生產的時候，但是在農民端發生了一個問題，所有的科技發展都協助所有農機具相關的業者，對於真正農民生產的收益，他們覺得沒有辦法提高，這要怎麼解決？"],["陳部長駿季：我想可能委員誤會了，科技發展不是只有農機具，從品種開發、栽培技術、改良跟採收後的處理，農機的研究只是一小部分而已，並不是代表全部。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，但是從農民所接觸的生產機械，就是他們接觸的所有部分，不管是肥料也好，或者是種苗也好，他們會認為其生產成本因為技術的提高而增加，而他們的收入卻沒有因此成本的增加而有大幅度的提升，這要怎麼解決？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這要分兩個部分，品種的開發，我們試驗單位會根據氣候變遷、一些耐候性的品種；而品種的推廣，我們儘可能用推廣跟授權的方式處理；栽培技術的改良，我們有農民學院，還有非常多的說明會，會透過產銷班來溝通，這部分我們持續在做。比較重要的就是實質地透過省工機械的部分，因為我們有補助，所以農民就比較有感，對於技術的導入，他比較無感。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對！他會認為你補助的是機械。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就如同我跟你說的，當我們在推動養牛產業全面升級的過程當中，讓整體技術以及設備升級，但對於酪農業者，也許他們會認為是他們的生產成本，就是那些機具業者的成本相對提高，造成他們成本也提高，但可能在我們需求不夠的情況下，又導致他們沒有辦法獲得相當的收益，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：這部分我們一直有在稽核，通常我們補助下去，農機具的價格就變高了、就被稀釋了，所以在前端的市售價格，我們會不斷地去稽核跟滾動檢討，不要因為我們補助了50%，結果整個售價也提高了40%，對農民來講也是一種負擔啦！這個部分我們會來努力，儘量去稽核相關的市售部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個問題很大啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["謝委員衣鳯：今天我們審查預算，我們一直在協助農業部的預算，因為我們希望農業部不管是科技的發展等等，都可以協助農民，但是沒有想到反而造成了生產成本的增加，導致他們最後的收益沒有辦法如同生產成本等比例地增加，這個時候就會造成大幅度的影響。剛才也有委員質詢到關於颱風的災損申報，當然我們知道公務人員有公務人員應有的法則，但是在災損的申報從寬、從速、從簡這個部分，目前在基層的確沒有辦法達到，這個部分農業部也需要來檢討怎麼樣簡化流程，目前的確流程沒有達到大幅度的簡化。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，應該在11月底的時候我們會把新的天然災害救助辦法重新更新，過往比較大的災害，農業部都會主動公告，在這次4個颱風就已經呈現它很快速的公告，可是相對地我們也發現當農業部主動公告得越快的時候，地方政府就用喊的，就是希望中央趕快公告，理論上來講，天然災害救助，地方政府、公所要負責速報跟現勘，我們發現他們現在越來越不做這樣的事情，都靠農業部，但農業部不可能面對所有的縣市每一個品項，所以後續的整個公告程序我們會來簡化，然後做更大的彈性處理，才能夠達到從寬跟從速的態度。"],["謝委員衣鳯：從目前看來的確沒有辦法達到，就是大家都沒有辦法按照天然災害的辦法從速、從簡。"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為公所的人力問題，特別是彰化、雲林、嘉義、臺南，面積比較大的時候、公所的人力不夠的時候，造成它的速度會變慢，這個我們會再……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這應該也不是公所的那個……就是當農民申報的時候，你們對於到底是不是補助的範圍，因為有時候有耕期的問題，你們也沒有辦法……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，公告就確定，他申請以後就去現勘了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個部分，現勘的人力需求是現在最大的一個瓶頸，我們會看看天然災害救助辦法裡面有沒有辦法用什麼樣的方法來解決，包括用天氣參數，就是不要去現勘，用天氣參數直接判定，這樣的話就節省我們現勘的人力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。還有你在推臺灣的鮮乳標章，我想要知道你現在推得怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：現在開始除了有一個CAS外，還有一個TGAP的部分，這個標章我們會鏈結到產銷履歷的部分，所以目前在保久乳的部分，已經開始在處理CAS及產銷履歷的部分，我們希望透過產銷履歷、透過CAS或TGAP的認證標章，讓我們的消費者認同。"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼從保久乳開始？為什麼鮮乳不行？"],["陳部長駿季：因為鮮乳本來就有了，保久乳是因為剛好……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是，你不是要設計一個新的……"],["陳部長駿季：我們鮮乳標章已經重新設計過了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：新的標章嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，7月1號就設計過了，新的已經貼在鮮乳標章了，已經改了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是臺灣的鮮乳標章？"],["陳部長駿季：對，有寫了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以經過這個新的標章認證的就是臺灣鮮乳？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來是連保久乳也要同樣認證，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，也要認證，是這樣子。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想要知道現在食藥署對於臺灣鮮乳的標章的看法是怎麼樣。"],["陳部長駿季：它對臺灣鮮乳標章是沒問題，它是針對進口的長效鮮乳的名稱有疑慮，他們專家會議持不同的意見，我們是希望用長效乳，不要「鮮」字，但是他們是覺得應該要用長效鮮乳。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以他們還是希望保留鮮乳這個部分，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是衛福部他們專家會議的決定，但是我想我們還是持續堅持我們的立場。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，那我還有一個意見，我們2025年傳統豬瘟是不是有可能會拔針？"],["陳部長駿季：應該沒有問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們已經提出申請了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：有提出來，提出申請了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有沒有提出申請？"],["陳部長駿季：已經提出申請了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那有沒有可能拔針？"],["陳部長駿季：我們應該是非常樂觀以對，如果國內這段時間不會再發生，就絕對沒問題，所以我們一直監控。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我希望你們可以非常嚴謹地處理這件事情，因為這牽涉到我們稻草要輸往日本的規定，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：一個關鍵。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為稻草是我們臺灣農民在生產稻米的農廢嘛！未來如果……"],["陳部長駿季：是剩餘資材。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，如果未來可以變成一個資材，變成一個可賣的產品，就能夠銷往日本，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們還是會跟對方的檢疫談。"],["謝委員衣鳯：再給我一點點時間，不好意思，我把這個問完。"],["主席：半分鐘。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，半分鐘，不要再按鈴了。所以這兩個是有連動的，這也會協助農民減少這個剩餘資材，然後變成可賣品，也可以增加農民的……"],["陳部長駿季：收益。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那你應該要想辦法增加農民的收益嘛！你不能夠都不增加他的收益，然後就要提高他生產成本，他們怎麼可以接受，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝謝衣鳯委員，部長請回座。謝委員精確地掌握時間，著實令人敬佩，足堪本會之楷模。待會鄭天財委員質詢之後，我們會稍事休息，休息時間待會再宣布。","下一位質詢請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝主席 黃委員早早"},{"start":11.876,"end":31.591,"text":"有關於日前《華爾街日報》曾報導一款名為TOKIT的AI聊天機器人,成為美國最受歡迎的APP之一。這個APP不只是美國受到歡迎,連菲律賓、英國、加拿大"},{"start":32.732,"end":59.444,"text":"的下載次數的非常多而這個軟體背後的母公司就是大陸的大陸制所以本身想要了解一下就是說發現這個軟體在台灣也可以下載得到局長你認為這樣的一個會不會對國安產生一個非常大的一個威脅那這類AI聊天軟體構成的威脅為何你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":60.284,"end":74.07,"text":"對,大概我們一再再提醒對於中共製作的這些APEC的軟體它可能潛存了資安的風險那這個TOKI的流通主要是在英語系的國家目前用戶大概有1100萬人那對於"},{"start":76.971,"end":80.473,"text":"好 等一下我們要往下延伸本席所知道的這個AI軟體的特色在於學習意思就是在當我們越使用它它就會"},{"start":105.226,"end":108.207,"text":"所以本席看了今天的報導我們發現比較有意思的是在深層"},{"start":133.573,"end":144.895,"text":"那時候構思的威脅大家都在重視AI製造出的一個假訊息它也是提供反制的想法但是比較忽略收集的部分"},{"start":146.899,"end":171.378,"text":"對 這確實是一個威脅那也謝謝委員利用這個質詢的機會提出這個非常重要的問題來因為就AI的一個聊天的軟體因為它是聯網的所以變成是它可以即時的去掌搜那使用者他相關使用軟體的一個習性那這是為什麼我們一再的在提醒使用這種AI生成式的AI一定要特別注意我們局裡面是一定是要落地的"},{"start":171.678,"end":174.519,"text":"所以因為有這樣的一個信息所以我們加以來做一個反制或反犯那不管是無論是中國大陸的一個TOTIP"},{"start":195.903,"end":224.675,"text":"還是美國的這個CHAT的一個GPT都在收集使用媒體的信息這就是AI發展的條件之一但不可避免但政府不能單純以開發國家區分威脅性而是針對個別軟體區分它的一個威脅的程度那政府是否有這個做這樣的一個工作並且是否能有能力的到個別檢視"},{"start":226.416,"end":251.799,"text":"這部分就國安局的立場來講我們會針對這些可能的中置的APP的資安風險我們會提供業管單位來做參考那因為主要的業管可能還是在書發部這邊針對相關的一個APP要不要提出警示的一個公告但這部分我們也跟書發部有做過一些討論也就是說在公告的名單上可能比較有可能的做法是朝向限制使用"},{"start":252.139,"end":255.903,"text":"就是哪些APP是比較有風水的,來先跟蘇拉夫講一下,短程、近程、遠程的一個,好不好,你們在討論的過程裡面,能不能給我一份簡單的一個說明報告,好不好。"},{"start":267.096,"end":290.121,"text":"那第二個就是指導美國國家安全及情報部門使用的人工智慧AI新規定的備忘錄裡面局長你認為AI錯假的信息正威脅除了來自中國大陸政府之外有沒有可能來自盟友甚至我們自己的政府那今天出席的各部會報告中提到"},{"start":291.141,"end":301.988,"text":"以AI反制AI本席首先想要請教國安局長政府要具體要如何以AI反制AI政府又如何應用AI的技術"},{"start":303.238,"end":324.455,"text":"對,因為AI它可以運用到像我們今天報告的主題用到錯假訊息或是用到資安的攻擊那因為它發動的攻擊的能量會非常的龐大所以我們必須要用AI的技術來做反制我們要是依照傳統的人力來講我們會非常的吃力那在這部分我們的努力大概分兩個部分第一個部分是運用AI來查找資安上"},{"start":325.936,"end":326.096,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":345.003,"end":352.408,"text":"希望你們能夠精準,今年的10月份美國發布指導美國國家安全與情報部門使用人工智慧這新規定的備忘錄裡面,我們目前有類似指導規範嗎?還有局長是否確確的知道美國這一份備忘錄的目的的規範是什麼?"},{"start":370.241,"end":388.469,"text":"對,美國這份備忘錄主要提到的是AI未來發展技術的主要的一個方向那另外也提到了可能帶來的一個風險那再來另外一個重點部分就在於說跟國際連結的部分哪一些是可以連結的但哪一些可能要注意的這大概是這次公布的備忘錄其實備忘錄裡面當然你剛剛講的是對的但是我要再加上"},{"start":393.451,"end":415.486,"text":"我本席的個人的看法有兩個部分一鼓勵使用AI強調國安和情報不能不能利用AI壓迫言論自由以公民的權利因為這是明確明定確定政府不能用這個來做一個壓迫言論的一個自由那第二個是"},{"start":416.286,"end":432.98,"text":"禁止濫用AI強調國安局和情報部不能利用AI壓迫政府的言論自由那當然我們在報告中以AI反制AI這本來就是你們要做的事情那當然我們情事單位強調以AI反制"},{"start":436.565,"end":446.18,"text":"指導規範很可能會被濫用在自己國人的身上就算在政府非常喜歡對於不利的消息認知作戰這個"},{"start":449.764,"end":474.475,"text":"此於遭政府不斷的濫用後,國人根本無法確定到底是中共還是現在執政黨在混淆民眾的認知。謝偉文提到這問題,事實上剛剛我們在口頭報告的時候也特別提到這一點,也就是說對於AI的使用跟管理還是應該要有法規的法尊的規範,那這部分因為業管單位書發部已經在研擬人工智慧基本法,"},{"start":474.815,"end":491.333,"text":"所以本局會針對相關國外發展的趨勢提供給業管單位來做參考另外本局內部對於使用AI也有我們自己的作業規範避免到使用AI被濫用以便來一方面保障我們國人的權益一方面保障國家安全所以我們本席各部會強調政府應用AI以反以AI反制AI"},{"start":496.438,"end":522.926,"text":"但這個都是要告訴國人如何使用使用時是否受到規範和限制你們這一點一定要告訴給國人知道那使用過程是否侵害到國人自由或隱私這讓本席非常擔心政府會濫用我們會持續跟相關單位包括國科會跟書發部來交代我們聯繫跟我們習巧欣委員所講的高嘉義"},{"start":524.506,"end":541.694,"text":"深偽的一個部分我請教一下我們的警政署在今日網路流傳了一段民進黨前立委高嘉宜遭AI變造的假政論節目抖音影片影片中高嘉宜說我對民進黨沒有什麼好感這個爛黨真的糟糕"},{"start":545.416,"end":561.348,"text":"從賴清的開始就歪瓜這個內軸那這個影片雖然仔細看了還是能夠辨別某些地方嘴形不一樣但反正的程度不低影片大約在一週前流傳雖然不少"},{"start":563.309,"end":581.927,"text":"觀看能夠區別的真偽甚至留言取笑影片是偽造但講的內容是真實的還是為了避免誤會高嘉宜在4天前提告本席特別確認這個影片目前網路上仍然沒有刪除請問一下警政署"},{"start":587.601,"end":616.482,"text":"跟委員報告有關於高教育委員的影片的部分因為他本身抖音有分國際版跟中國大陸版如果是屬於國際版的TikTok的部分我們目前行事警察局這邊是有聯繫管道但是對於他本身中國大陸版的抖音的部分因為我們並沒有辦法去跟他們做相關聯繫所以在下屆的部分我們沒辦法直接來做處理"},{"start":617.898,"end":643.217,"text":"所以這個對於很明確高嘉義也是對媒體的對公開的解釋就是說這是一個偽造的一個AI那你們應該查查之後應該就要下架不過還是要流傳到在社會的層面裡面讓別人誤會到他的本尊我想這個警政署你們應該就要精準趕快查查這樣的一個訊息才對啊對不對"},{"start":645.731,"end":667.417,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛有提到是說他抖音本身是中國大陸他本身的這些網際公司我們對於這部分我們並沒辦法去要求他們這公司來進行下架當然國內部分也可以做進行網域封鎖的部分不過這不涉及到警政署的權責有提到Link的部分那邊是可以來做處理"},{"start":668.977,"end":694.128,"text":"這個是要提示警政署包含警調在處理深偽影片的反應動作遲軟顯然政府對於如何處理AI造成的信息危害根本沒有一個的確的一個切切的一個SOP啊對不對所以你們未來可能會更多更多會發生這種不管在座的各位可能會被偽造偽曾偽的部分"},{"start":694.628,"end":715.453,"text":"所以你們本來就自己本身自立出不管是精緊檢調都要製作一個SOP來警示未來防範這樣的一個發生啊是吧是 謝委員的指教我們這部分會跟相關部會來做聯繫請他們在我們國內可以適當處理的部分盡量來做一個處理我們會來努力"},{"start":716.693,"end":734.348,"text":"好,你們製造一個SOP裡面本來就是應該要做未來防範因為將來以後可能會更多因為AI反制AI但是我們自己AI反制AI但他們也有自己的一個系統的一套的玩法對不對,好不好是好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時56分）有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。黃委員早。"],["黃委員仁：早。有關日前華爾街日報曾報導一款名為Talkie的AI聊天機器人，成為美國最受歡迎的app之一。這個app不只在美國受到歡迎，連在菲律賓、英國、加拿大的下載次數都非常多，而這個軟體背後的公司就是大陸、大陸製。本席想要了解一下，發現這個軟體在臺灣也可以下載得到，你認為這樣會不會對國安產生非常大的威脅？這類AI聊天軟體構成的威脅為何？你來回答一下，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一再提醒，對於中共製作的這些app軟體，可能潛存資安風險，Talkie的流通主要是在英語系國家，目前用戶大概有1,100萬人。因為中共的這些軟體公司也要配合到中共的國安法制提供客戶的相關資訊，可能造成資安的危害，包括使用者的一些習性、位置以及通聯資訊，我們都要避免可能有外流到中共的風險。"],["黃委員仁：等一下我們會往下延伸。本席所知道的是，這個AI軟體的特色在於學習，意思就是在當我們越使用它，它就會更聰明。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，越會掌握使用的習性。"],["黃委員仁：因為它可以透過用戶使用的過程，蒐集個人或某群體的思維、邏輯和習慣。以國安局的角度，AI聊天軟體是在蒐集或者再生成，對國安更具有危險性。本席看了今天的報導，發現比較有意思的是再生成，所構成的威脅是大家都在重視AI製造出假訊息，它也提供反制的想法，但是比較忽略蒐集的部分。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這確實是一個威脅，也謝謝委員利用質詢的機會，提出這個非常重要問題。因為AI聊天軟體是連網的，所以變成它可以即時掌蒐使用者使用軟體的習性。這也是為什麼我們一再提醒，使用這種生成式的AI一定要特別注意。本局一定是要落地的，落地的意思就是所謂的實體隔離，我們是運用它的軟體在我們內部的系統來測試，但是這種中共製的app因為是連網的，所以它可以即時掌蒐一些資訊，這確實有資安疑慮，要特別注意。"],["黃委員仁：因為有這樣的訊息，所以我們要加以來反制或是防範，無論是中國大陸的Talkie還是美國的ChatGPT都在蒐集、使用媒體的訊息，這也是AI發展的條件之一，雖然這是不可避免的，但政府不能單純以開發國家來區分威脅性，而是應針對個別軟體區分威脅程度，政府是否有做這樣的工作，並且是否有能力做到個別檢視？"],["蔡局長明彥：就國安局的立場來講，針對這些中製app可能產生的資安風險，我們會提供業管單位作為參考，主要業管可能還是在數發部這邊，針對相關的app要不要提出警示公告，但這部分我們也跟數發部有做過一些討論，也就是在公告的名單上，比較有可能的做法是朝向限制使用，哪些app是比較有風險要限制，比較不方便做的是……"],["黃委員仁：那就你們麻煩跟數發部講一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們上禮拜才跟他們討論。"],["黃委員仁：短程、近程、遠程的討論過程，能不能給我一份簡單的說明報告，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有問題。"],["黃委員仁：第二個，指導美國國家安全及情報部門使用人工智慧（AI）之新規定的備忘錄裡面，局長，你認為AI錯假訊息的這種威脅，除了來自中國大陸政府之外，有沒有可能來自於盟友，甚至我們自己的政府？今天出席的各部會報告中提到以AI反制AI，本席首先想要請教國安局局長，政府具體要如何以AI反制AI，政府又要如何應用AI的技術？"],["蔡局長明彥：像我們今天報告的主題，AI可以運用到錯假訊息或是資安攻擊，因為它發動的攻擊能量會非常龐大，所以我們必須要用AI的技術來做反制，因為以傳統人力來講會非常吃力，在這部分我們的努力大概分兩個部分，第一個部分是運用AI查找資安上可能的攻擊來源，我們會針對這些駭客團體的攻擊方式與路徑做蒐集，然後讓我們的AI系統可以學習辨識，跟委員很誠實的報告，我們過去透過AI系統來查找這些境外的IP或攻擊來源，正確比例非常高，跟人工來比較正確比例非常高，這是一部分。"],["黃委員仁：我希望你們能夠精準……"],["蔡局長明彥：第二部分是針對……"],["黃委員仁：今年10月份美國發布指導美國國家安全與情報部門使用人工智慧之新規定的備忘錄，我們目前有類似的指導規範嗎？還有，局長是否確切地知道美國這一份備忘錄規範的目的是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：美國這一份備忘錄主要提到的是AI未來發展技術的主要方向，另外也提到了可能帶來的風險，再來，另外一個重點就在於跟國際連結的部分，哪一些是可以連結的，哪一些可能要注意，這大概是這一次白宮公布備忘錄最主要的重點。"],["黃委員仁：其實在這個備忘錄裡面，你剛剛講的是對的，但是本席要再加上個人的看法，有兩個部分，第一個，鼓勵使用AI，強調國安和情報部門不能利用AI壓迫言論自由與公民的權利，明定政府不能用這個來壓迫言論自由。第二個，禁止濫用AI，強調國安和情報部門不能利用AI壓迫政府的言論自由。你們在報告中提到要以AI反制AI，這本來就是你們要做的事情，但情治單位強調以AI反制AI的同時，如果缺乏明確使用的指導規範，很可能會被濫用在自己國人身上，就算政府是對於不利的消息認知作戰，以致於遭政府不斷地濫用後，國人根本無法確定到底是中共還是現在執政黨在混淆民眾的認知。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，事實上，剛剛我們在口頭報告的時候也特別提到這一點，也就是對於AI的使用跟管理還是應該要有法規、法遵的規範，這部分因為業管單位數發部已經在研擬人工智慧基本法，所以本局會針對相關國外發展的趨勢提供給業管單位作為參考。另外，本局內部對於使用AI也有我們自己的作業規範，避免使AI被濫用，一方面保障我們國人的權益，一方面保障國家安全。"],["黃委員仁：各部會強調政府應用AI、以AI反制AI，但都是要告訴國人如何使用，使用時是否受到規範和限制，這一點你們一定要告訴國人，讓國人知道，而且使用過程是否侵害到國人自由或隱私，這讓本席非常擔心政府會濫用。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會持續跟相關單位，包括國科會跟數發部來交換意見。"],["黃委員仁：我延續剛剛徐巧芯委員所講的，就高嘉瑜的深偽影片部分請教警政署，近日在網路上流傳一段民進黨前立委高嘉瑜遭AI變造的假政論節目抖音影片，影片中高嘉瑜說：「我對民進黨沒有什麼好感，這個爛黨真的糟糕，從賴清德開始就歪瓜劣棗」。這個影片雖然仔細看還是能夠辨別某些地方嘴型不一樣，但仿真程度不低，影片大約在一週前流傳，雖然不少觀看者能夠區別真偽，甚至留言取笑影片是偽造，但講的內容是否真實及還是為了避免誤會，高嘉瑜已在四天前提告，本席特別確認這個影片目前在網路上仍然沒有刪除，請問警政署。"],["林副局長信雄：跟委員報告，有關於高嘉瑜委員影片的部分，因為抖音有分國際版和中國大陸版，如果是屬於國際版TikTok的部分，目前刑事警察局這邊有聯繫管道，但是對於中國大陸版抖音的部分，因為我們並沒有辦法去跟它們做相關聯繫，所以在下架的部分，我們沒辦法直接來做處理。"],["黃委員仁：這個已經很明確，高嘉瑜也對媒體公開解釋說這是一個偽造的AI，你們應該查察之後就要下架，不要流傳到社會層面裡面造成誤會，警政署應該要精準趕快查察這樣的訊息才對，對不對？"],["林副局長信雄：跟委員報告，剛剛有提到抖音是中國大陸本身的網際網路公司，我們對於這個部分並沒有辦法去要求公司來進行下架，當然國內部分也可以進行網域封鎖，不過這不涉及到警政署的權責，這是屬於TWNIC的部分，那邊是可以來做處理。"],["黃委員仁：我要提醒警政署，包含檢調，在處理深偽影片的反應、動作遲緩，顯然政府對於如何處理AI造成的訊息危害根本沒有一個確切的SOP，而且未來可能會有更多這樣的事件發生，在座的各位都可能會成為被深偽的部分，所以你們本來就應該制定出，不管是軍警檢調都要制定一個SOP，以警示及防範未來這樣的事件發生，是吧？"],["林副局長信雄：是，謝謝委員的指教，這部分我們會跟相關部會來做聯繫，請他們在國內可以適當處理的部分，儘量來做處理，我們會來努力。"],["黃委員仁：你們制定的SOP裡面本來就應該要做好未來防範，因為將來可能會有更多，我們要以AI反制AI，但是他們也有自己系統的一套玩法，好不好？"],["林副局長信雄：好。"],["黃委員仁：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員。","接下來我們請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 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請部長陳部長我每次在質詢當中都跟您在討論一個叫制度的問題"},{"start":25.495,"end":53.273,"text":"基本上我相信從過去到現在我們不論是農業的摘損、漁業的摘損或畜牧的摘損我們其實在每一次有颱風過後尤其今年又特別今年的特別是到了11月還有這些怪胎除了第一次康瑞之後大家認為說哇可能是就這樣結束了沒有"},{"start":54.434,"end":65.068,"text":"海連4個台風共伴當然他們會不會互相影響我們不了解因為那是一個大氣象的狀態可是"},{"start":68.8,"end":94.96,"text":"事必他一定會對我們台灣不論有沒有直撲畢竟他還會有一些氣流的影響所以基本上從康瑞一直到現在你知道我們是持續摘損持續摘損不是延遲性是持續性摘損這是很恐怖你看從康瑞"},{"start":96.585,"end":98.026,"text":"發言委員：發言委員"},{"start":124.844,"end":124.864,"text":"發言員："},{"start":146.909,"end":165.921,"text":"部長制度很重要颱風過後是不是我們就要要求在SOP的第一關應該要要求農業局要求各區公所針對農民的損害趕快做速報這是第一關嘛是"},{"start":167.304,"end":167.444,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":187.085,"end":215.417,"text":"是因為當時候那個是全面性的自災所以有辦法第一時間全面性公告可是在各地方像在台南第一時間11月1號部長你還可以看你的LINE你第一通你一大早還沒開會之前就接到我的電話我跟你講科朋的問題我跟你講我們這些各品項"},{"start":216.974,"end":217.995,"text":"但是部長你看喔"},{"start":244.01,"end":258.698,"text":"現在從康瑞到現在只有胡麻完成公告只有胡麻完成公告其他來我們看楊香瓜楊香瓜紅蔥頭是已經達災損標準還沒公告因為他們要在開會要報資料上來"},{"start":267.974,"end":275.599,"text":"楊香瓜紅蔥頭這個都是第一時間就已經致災嚴重的。我不知道是誰發生問題啦。"},{"start":279.084,"end":295.535,"text":"是政府發生問題還是農業部不積極?我要跟委員說明一下也順便讓所有的我想包括我們的媒體朋友知道其實天然災害救助的標準它是由地方公所這邊去訴報訴報了以後"},{"start":298.196,"end":326.405,"text":"確定了它的自災程度然後由公所確認以後提報到縣府縣府提報到農業部農業部再公告這是標準的流程但是因為大面積的自災農業部在第一時間我們就啟動了我們的分署跟改良場所跟漁業署的部分去看我們就採用主動公告可是主動公告的過程我們也發現了包括部分的縣市包括台南還有其他縣市公所就變成"},{"start":327.125,"end":344.891,"text":"不怎麼想要去看這個我們都清楚所以我為什麼一直請你就把事情SOP講清楚這個SOP已經就在那邊了我們也要求就在那邊問題是你沒有要求嘛大家地方看中央中央看地方嘛誰受害農民受害"},{"start":345.791,"end":367.421,"text":"因為大家都沒有想到喔農民如果受損之後他的農作物產生自災他沒有趕快去做清理他沒有翻根他那些東西更嚴重啊他會造成下一季的收成有問題喔他如果在整個造成菌的影響"},{"start":368.741,"end":394.549,"text":"那不是我們能夠去思考的喔所以我們農民都第一時間你知道嗎楊江瓜那一天那一天11月1號下午去看早上這邊假凍立法院假凍下午去看的時候他們已經翻過一番了捏他們已經趕快做處理了我說你怎麼這麼快有委員我們如果沒趕快處理的話有可能我們下一季就發生問題了"},{"start":396.261,"end":397.502,"text":"農民的感受度"},{"start":414.229,"end":426.767,"text":"很清楚所以楊香瓜跟紅蔥頭我說到目前為止康瑞從10月底30號那時候一直到現在多久了"},{"start":428.001,"end":446.209,"text":"農田水利事業基金、農田水利事業基金及農田水利事業基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田水利基金及農田"},{"start":447.834,"end":471.969,"text":"這是我們也要謝謝我們農糧署啦在我們吹的時候有去了解啦然後現在有一些問題我剛好要跟部長說啦楊江瓜北門區、將軍區、契谷區、安南區有達到整個綜合評估的救助標準現在在成合當中紅松頭也是安南區契谷有符合救助標準目前在成合中趕快公告"},{"start":473.15,"end":474.472,"text":"趕快公告再來是番茄番茄還有玉米"},{"start":491.605,"end":516.413,"text":"這個部分還有蕎麥跟黑豆這個都是持續性持續性的自災你像蕎麥黑豆就是蕎麥是六甲區關田區黑豆是柳營區關田區北門區這個部分這個部分到底他們自災的狀況趕快速報居然還有區公所是拿3月份的資料給你們你們知不知道"},{"start":517.453,"end":535.53,"text":"很誇張啊 真的很誇張來部長重新因為這整個颱風四個颱風共伴的四個颱風是從康睿一直到現在都是持續性的現在已經叫他報報了趕快去訴報了解整個狀況已經浸在水裡兩十星期了"},{"start":543.682,"end":567.968,"text":"再來就是我們番茄的部分是鹽水、將軍、北門、關田、永康也趕快去有些都還沒訴報我一個一個追我得到的訊息農民給我的陳情我一個一個追這些有很多都還沒訴報還有食用玉米整個狀況都不一樣山上將軍、家裡、西港、麻豆這些拜託部長"},{"start":569.108,"end":569.308,"text":"拜託部長"},{"start":592.268,"end":592.809,"text":"拜託跟台南市政府聯絡"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時55分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我每次在質詢當中都跟您在討論一個叫制度的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：基本上從過去到現在，不論是農業的災損、漁業的災損或畜牧的災損，其實每一次颱風過後，尤其今年又特別，今年的特別在於到了11月還有這些怪颱。除了第一次的康芮之後，大家認為可能就這樣結束了，沒有！還連4個颱風共伴，當然它們會不會互相影響我們不了解，因為那是大氣象的狀態，可是勢必一定會對臺灣，不論有沒有直撲，畢竟它還會有一些氣流的影響。所以基本上從康芮一直到現在，你知道我們是持續災損，不是延遲性的，是持續性災損。"],["陳部長駿季：連續性的。"],["陳委員亭妃：這很恐怖，你看從康芮開始，下大雨，所有農作物浸在水裡，之後又加上4個颱風共伴，所有的氣流影響，雨勢也沒有停過，等於是整個農作物完全都被水浸泡著。像番茄、玉米，像當初我們第一時間去看的洋香瓜、紅蔥頭，還有現在的蕎麥、黑豆，可是臺南市政府還有多少還沒報，我們不知道、不清楚，我們是一樣一樣追喔！所以部長，制度很重要，颱風過後，是不是我們在SOP的第一關，應該要求農業局要求各區公所針對農民的損害趕快做速報，這是第一關。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：結果是讓農民不知道怎麼辦，我相信絕對不只臺南市政府，各縣市政府絕對都是這樣，因為過去我們都做得太快了。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：中央做得太快，直接公告，大家就覺得好像都是這個樣子，錯了！因為當時是全面性致災，所以有辦法第一時間全面性公告，可是在各地方，像在臺南，第一時間、11月1日，部長，你還可以看你的LINE，你的第一通、一大早還沒開會之前就接到我的電話，我跟你講蚵棚的問題、我跟你講我們各品項的災損狀況。因為是各品項，沒辦法一致性地說哪一個農作物、哪一個品項受損比較嚴重，沒有辦法。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我當時就是拜託部長要趕快要求各區公所做速報、去了解，但是你看，從康芮到現在，只有胡麻完成公告，其他的像洋香瓜、紅蔥頭是已經達災損標準，但還沒公告，因為他們還要再開會，要報資料上來。洋香瓜、紅蔥頭這個都是第一時間就已經致災嚴重的，我不知道是誰發生問題，是市政府發生問題？還是農業部不積極？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明一下，也順便讓所有的人，包括媒體朋友知道，其實天然災害救助的標準是由地方公所去速報，速報了以後，確定它的致災程度，然後由公所確認以後提報到縣府，縣府提報到農業部，農業部再公告，這是標準的流程；但是因為大面積的致災，農業部在第一時間就啟動我們的分署、改良場所跟漁業署的部分去看，我們就採用主動公告，可是主動公告的過程，我們也發現部分的縣市，包括臺南還有其他縣市，公所就變成不怎麼想要去看。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，這個我們都清楚，所以我為什麼一直請你把事情的SOP講清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：這個SOP已經在那邊了，我們也要求……"],["陳委員亭妃：就在那邊，問題是你沒有要求嘛！大家都地方看中央、中央看地方，誰受害？農民受害。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為大家都沒有想到農民受損之後，他的農作物致災，如果沒有趕快清理、翻耕，那些東西……"],["陳部長駿季：他後面的損失更嚴重。"],["陳委員亭妃：更嚴重啊！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：它會造成下一季的收成有問題，如果整個造成菌的影響，那不是我們能夠去思考的。農民都是第一時間處理，以洋香瓜為例，那一天11月1號，早上立法院甲動，下午我去看的時候，他們已經翻過一遍了，他們已經趕快在處理了。我問他們怎麼這麼快？他們回我說：委員，如果沒趕快處理的話，有可能下一季就發生問題了。這是農民的心聲啊！我們公務人員呢？是這樣的想法嗎？不是。部長，我們一直關心農民，可是農民的感受度很清楚，洋香瓜跟紅蔥頭到目前為止，康芮從10月30號一直到現在，多久了？"],["陳部長駿季：差不多一個多月，應該有一個多月。"],["陳委員亭妃：還沒啦！還沒一個多月，大概半個月，康芮是10月底嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：有三個禮拜左右。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！到現在只有胡麻公告。好，洋香瓜、紅蔥頭已經達災損，北門區、將軍區，這是我去撈的資料，也要謝謝農糧署，在我們催的時候有去瞭解，現在有一些問題，我剛好要跟部長說。洋香瓜在北門區、將軍區、七股區、安南區有達到整個綜合評估的救助標準，現在在陳核當中；紅蔥頭也是，安南區、七股有符合救助標準，目前在陳核中，趕快公告。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會立即跟臺南市政府聯繫，以後也是一樣，一旦發生以後，我們會要求市政府一定要第一時間去處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，部長，這部分已經確認了，趕快公告。再來是番茄、玉米、蕎麥跟黑豆，這個都是持續性的致災，像蕎麥、黑豆，蕎麥是六甲區、官田區；黑豆是柳營區、官田區、北門區，到底這個部分致災的狀況如何，趕快速報，居然還有區公所拿3月份的資料給你們，你們知不知道？很誇張啦！"],["陳部長駿季：這個番茄的情況，今天他們跟我們回報，今天會去會勘……"],["陳委員亭妃：真的很誇張。部長，因為共伴的四個颱風，從康芮一直到現在都是持續性的，現在趕快叫他們提報，趕快速報，瞭解整個狀況，都已經泡在水裡兩、三個禮拜了，說那個可以活，我都不相信。再來，番茄的部分是鹽水、將軍、北門、官田、永康，也趕快處理，有些都還沒有速報，從我得到的訊息、農民給我陳情，我一個一個追，有很多都還沒有速報；還有食用玉米，整個狀況都不一樣，山上、將軍、佳里、西港、麻豆，拜託部長，請你趕快跟農業局說，請區公所趕快速報，我們趕快把它彙整起來，該給人家的災損公告，就趕快災損公告。一個重點就是洋香瓜跟紅蔥頭，拜託部長趕快公告，因為這個已經都達到致災標準了，其他的部分要求各區公所趕快速報，再拜託。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會儘速跟臺南市政府聯絡。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員，請部長儘速跟臺南市政府相關單位聯絡，請回座。","下一位質詢請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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莊部長請委員好部長好 部長昨天那個海關博物館開幕嘛 對不對"},{"start":21.38,"end":40.768,"text":"那1996年的我們的海關的這個辦公室所成立之後呢海關博物館算是一個教育館那基本上也是對整個海關的歷史的重視但相對呢你對海關歷史的重視呢可是一樣是關務署對歷史建築卻感覺上啊相當的漠視為什麼"},{"start":42.789,"end":64.399,"text":"本席在10年的時候就已經去會堪考察過的北投育成中心的部分這是在1913年的時候以照目前為止是應該是非常久具有歷史如果我沒有記錯應該是最久的一個早期日治時期的一個溫泉招待所結果任由他方會"},{"start":65.419,"end":68.641,"text":"臺北市政府財政部有承接過這個財政部所屬的文化資產、文化身份的歷史建築嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":96.702,"end":117.239,"text":"臺北市有的時候因為他是文化主管機關有的時候他會移撥我們的歷史移撥也是修復好之後才會移撥啦部長你不要做夢了啦沒有一個地方政府會花這種錢第二個我想要問你的是說他有承諾具體的白紙黑字的承諾書嗎"},{"start":119.08,"end":122.522,"text":"臺北市政府願意花一億多元的部分預算來修復我們北投育成中心"},{"start":142.312,"end":143.213,"text":"臺北市政府維持原來的承諾"},{"start":160.475,"end":176.982,"text":"原來的承諾你要北撞奧伊伊阿不要到時候你又是找不到帳阿你到時候又重新改一個計畫又3年到5年明明已經100多年的建築物任由其方會又要任由已經本席到現在已經3年到4年4年後又3年又4年你要等到他150歲200歲才有打算修復他嗎"},{"start":180.563,"end":205.83,"text":"所以報告委員所以我們115年如果這個移波沒有順利完成我們115年就會編列這個概算編列什麼預算那你如果明年可以編列預算你為什麼不早點編列預算就很奇怪啦報告委員因為當時跟臺北市政府文化局這邊談所以我們有編113跟114的這個你具體的承諾給我你現在都是修復計畫費用而已啦你如果沒有你要不要自己編部長"},{"start":207.033,"end":233.959,"text":"委員這樣子齁因為11月7號也去拜會臺北市那我想這個後續我們會持續的我覺得我們會部裡面也會再跟那個臺北市政府請我現在問你臺北市政府如果沒有答應你要不要自己編啊你聽不懂喔要問幾次自己編啊如果說他們好你要馬上給我編啊所有文化資產當中最多的財政部所屬的這個機關公股銀行包括國有財產署是文資大戶欸"},{"start":235.459,"end":252.695,"text":"你有沒有做一個總體的整理單單國產署就344個位置單單那個煙酒公司、台銀、核庫等等隨便一個房舍都具有高度的歷史價值但是你們沒有整體的去保存"},{"start":253.536,"end":268.245,"text":"都是零星片段個案處理啊部長,你們承諾本席做個整體的規劃通常的檢討我們部裡面都有去彙整各機關或機構所管的那個歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、歷史建築、"},{"start":281.465,"end":306.306,"text":"本席問過本席看到你們常常在講什麼智慧海關還有一些那個通關的便捷性什麼這一個數位海關搞了老半天人資色彩還是很多同樣一個樣品有的在A公司從B公司進了同樣的貨可是到不同的海關卻有不同的稅率"},{"start":308.612,"end":309.834,"text":"這部分對於稅則編號的見解不一樣的部分"},{"start":319.724,"end":319.904,"text":"一國好幾次"},{"start":346.018,"end":347.979,"text":"那有的要退稅一個月、一個半月"},{"start":366.39,"end":379.742,"text":"財政部的退稅作業為什麼一定要有的在電腦上可以執行有的一定要書面一定要零貴部長這是不是都你管的為什麼退稅有的要拉到一兩個月有的就只有五天"},{"start":380.796,"end":403.004,"text":"怎麼差那麼多當然應該要更改進要更改進對啊你上次也這麼阿沙尼跟回答本席啊應該改進啊你整個報稅要變節化退稅應該變節化結果呢已經事隔快要一年了你的阿沙尼已經阿沙尼了一年了結果呢還是一樣牛步化沒有變節化做何解釋這個部分我們再回去"},{"start":406.786,"end":406.806,"text":"暫停討論．"},{"start":422.631,"end":423.952,"text":"等期還有一件齁"},{"start":440.506,"end":461.439,"text":"一直放在心裡你們沒有辦法說服本席的部分就是TISA的部分你們對TISA的部分就是維持生活所得支出可以扣除是從所得稅的角度來看本席是說呢你如果說從一個好的一個那個對有利於人民的政策的這個TISA"},{"start":462.422,"end":483.472,"text":"為什麼人家NISA可以做第一代做到第二代可以讓整個資產的配置更加的理性化而我們呢在稅制上的優惠沒有辦法除了所得稅之外以差的作稅把這一個不是鼓勵投資是鼓勵投資貸退儲蓄的這個可能性把他拉高所有的工具都在你們手上"},{"start":485.093,"end":500.075,"text":"阿這個大家告訴我有什麼好處我就舉一個嘛現在說在證券市場當中對於租稅優惠可以幫助整個證券市場包括人民理財的部分呢其實外乎有三種一個是NISA一個是"},{"start":503.639,"end":519.616,"text":"臺灣三個投資工具就是少了人家兩個連ETF的部分的稅率也是1%而已啊他還是有優惠啊啊這種情況底下這麼好的方式為什麼我是要搞不清楚財政部想了這麼久反抗這麼久沒有找出一個替代方案部長"},{"start":521.616,"end":539.892,"text":"願聞高見跟委員報告有關TISA部分的租稅優惠我們和金管會其實都一直在持續的一些溝通中金管會找出一個減免手續會的方式解決不了問題我們也把各個國家在類似這樣TISA或NISA這樣的一個租稅優惠做了一個表列然後去做相互的比較"},{"start":540.572,"end":565.316,"text":"其實我們台灣現在對於這樣的一個經營的租稅的優惠其實優於其他各國已經優於其他各國了對所以你要找其他的可能性不是從所得稅的角度而已嘛本席剛剛就跟你講過本席剛剛有跟你講過嘛你現在所謂的維持生活基本支出如果按照這個原則現在是負利率的情況底下他也沒有辦法維持基本生活支出啊那所有國人的金融資產的占比當中即便"},{"start":570.641,"end":584.054,"text":"臺灣的證券市場算是正面的長期投資是好的情況底下你為何不讓國有這個機會呢透過租稅工具的方式呢部長請你回去再思考一下可不可以最後我再用一個短暫的時間"},{"start":585.555,"end":610.769,"text":"最新的消息是造源計劃造源計劃是在本席要求國會會建立一個平台溝通結果溝通的結果呢新所謂的建立一個建構一個平台結果還是推回來給財政部處理推回來給財政部處理的這個公建計劃也好或者是物流倉儲也好捷運也好我覺得這個目前設定都很好的標的那我要問你一下你這個平台建置了沒有財政部"},{"start":612.289,"end":637.771,"text":"將來會是我們在114年開始我們就會有一個促餐專案辦公室然後有一個平台專案辦公室專案辦公室然後也會有一個院級的跨部會的一個促餐推動的一個平台就是你們處理當然什麼時候完成在財政部這邊我們明年就開始了明年就開始明年就開始那院的什麼時候院級其實現在已經都在一直密集的在討論當中院的只是會議平台而已啦就我知道是這樣子啦"},{"start":638.331,"end":641.634,"text":"總共保險基金還有3.27億外界只要保險基金有3%就可以值得投資從實務上不止3%至少要5%"},{"start":654.565,"end":681.342,"text":"所以你現在透過這個出餐的方式的時候你還要去統合一個可能性就是說呢他有沒有可能把這一個出餐的這個標的當中再透過組合性的投資像REITS的部分來combine在一起的可能性對啊這就是金管會一起加入這個平台的主要的目的正常創造出來比較相對高的利率所得才能吸引更多基金投入這個公建跟捷運開發"},{"start":682.483,"end":682.863,"text":"謝謝國委員的質詢下一位請賴會員委員質詢請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":365,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時49分）謝謝主席，我們有請莊部長。"],["主席（賴委員士葆代）：莊部長請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。部長，昨天海關博物館開幕，對不對？1996年海關辦公室成立之後，海關博物館算是一個教育館，基本上也是對於整個海關歷史的重視。但是相對於對海關歷史的重視，一樣是關務署，可是對歷史建築卻感覺上相當的漠視，為什麼？本席在110年的時候就已經會勘考察過北投育成中心，這是1913年到目前為止，應該是非常具有歷史，如果我沒有記錯，應該是最久的一個早期日治時期溫泉招待所，結果任由它荒廢，搞了老半天，弄了三年之久才有一個計畫，最近我再一次去會勘，結果才處於期中報告結束，至於期末報告的階段，你告訴我臺北市政府會承接，部長，請問一下，臺北市政府財政局有承接過財政部所屬的文化資產、文化身分的歷史建築嗎？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：臺北市確實因為是文化主管機關，有的時候它會移撥我們的歷史……"],["郭委員國文：移撥也是修復好之後才會移撥啦！部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：也不一定……"],["郭委員國文：你不要作夢了啦！沒有一個地方政府會花這種錢。第二個，我想要問你的是，它有具體的白紙黑字的承諾書嗎？有嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有正式來文，然後關務署也去拜會了。"],["郭委員國文：有正式來文的承諾書，為什麼本席在詢問的時候你沒有提出來？你馬上告訴我啊！你有辦法在明年1月的時候，期末報告之後就順利移轉，然後臺北市政府會願意花一億多元的預算來修復北投育成中心？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們關務……"],["郭委員國文：你承諾本席、你承諾本席。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，關務署在11月7號的時候也拜會了臺北市文化局。"],["郭委員國文：我不管你的流程啦！你告訴我結果。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是不是請署長跟委員報告一下關務署去拜會的情形？"],["郭委員國文：結果怎麼樣？彭署長請說。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，臺北市政府現在還是維持原來的承諾，它大概明年……"],["郭委員國文：原來的承諾要白紙黑字啊！不要到時候又是找不到帳，你到時候又重新改一個計畫又三年到五年，明明已經一百多年的建築物任由其荒廢，本席到現在已經等三年到四年，四年後又三年、又四年，你要等到它150歲、200歲才要打算修復它嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，如果115年這個移撥沒有順利完成，我們115年就會編列這個概算。"],["郭委員國文：編列什麼預算？如果明年可以編列預算，你為什麼不早點編列預算？就很奇怪啦！"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，因為當時跟臺北市政府文化局談，所以我們有編113年及114年的利用及再修復計畫。"],["郭委員國文：你具體承諾給我，你現在就是修復計畫費用而已啦！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["郭委員國文：如果沒有，你要不要自己編，部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，因為11月7號有去拜會臺北市，後續我們會持續地……"],["郭委員國文：我說沒有的話，你要不要自己編嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得部裡面也會再跟臺北市政府……請他們一定按照原來的承諾來做。"],["郭委員國文：我現在問你，臺北市政府如果沒有答應，你要不要自己編？你聽不懂喔！要問幾次？"],["莊部長翠雲：自己編啊！如果說他們……"],["郭委員國文：好，你要馬上給我編。所有文化資產當中最多的是財政部所屬的機關、公股銀行，包括國有財產署，是文資大戶耶！你有沒有做一個總體的整理？"],["莊部長翠雲：有啊！"],["郭委員國文：單單國產署列管的就344個位置，單單菸酒公司、臺銀、合庫等等隨便一個房舍都具有高度歷史價值，但是你們沒有整體的保存，都是零星片段、個案處理啊！部長，你能不能承諾本席做整體規劃、通盤檢討？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，部裡面都有彙整各機關或機構所管的歷史建築或古蹟，也都會是他們要去做……"],["郭委員國文：彙整之外，後面要如何保存才是關鍵，不是彙整而已。"],["莊部長翠雲：按照文資法的規定來做後續修復及利用。"],["郭委員國文：我不是想要你調查，本席要你保存。"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道。"],["郭委員國文：可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：把它視為財政部的資產之一。","第二個，本席問過你們常常在講什麼智慧海關，還有通關的便捷性、數位海關等，搞了老半天，人治的色彩還是很多，同樣一個樣品，有的是A公司從B公司進了同樣的貨，可是到不同的海關卻有不同的稅率，部長，這是數位可以解決的嗎？這是智慧海關可以解決的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於稅則編號的見解不一樣的部分，關務署要做統一的解釋、要做統一的核覆。第二個就是說……"],["郭委員國文：對，而且要慎重的檢討，不要造成這種困擾。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當然也要編相關類似像手冊一樣，讓大家可以遵循，甚至也可以讓……"],["郭委員國文：來協調的時候，各自堅持己見。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分就要好好的去跟他溝通及要求。"],["郭委員國文：一國好幾制。"],["莊部長翠雲：另外也讓民眾可以事先申請預審，讓他知道他適用哪一個稅則編號。"],["郭委員國文：一國好幾制。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然一國好幾制是不應該，因為各關認知不同的話……"],["郭委員國文：對，這部分應該解決，你上次還很「阿沙力」的答應本席要解決，退稅的時候也應該數位化，你也是很爽快的答應本席，結果到目前為止……不是海關的稅務，海關老實講還做得不錯，老實講它退稅5天，那有的要退稅一個月、一個半月，一樣是財政部的退稅作業，為什麼有的在電腦上可以執行，有的一定要書面、一定要臨櫃？部長，這是不是都你管的？為什麼退稅有的要拉到一、兩個月，有的就只有5天，怎麼差那麼多？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然應該要更改進。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！你上次也這麼「阿沙力」地回答本席應該改進啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：整個報稅要便捷化，退稅也應該便捷化，結果呢？已經事隔快要一年了，你已經「阿沙力」一年了，結果還是一樣牛步化，沒有便捷化，做何解釋？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們再回去盤整一下到底哪一些時間上還不夠，可以更快速的。"],["郭委員國文：是啊！你不能這邊講了以後就算了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦、不會啦！"],["郭委員國文：底下交報告就想要敷衍了事嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦！不會這樣。"],["郭委員國文：所有的陳情案件一來，還是照常如實，對不對？你要繳稅、退稅都同樣的模式，都要便捷化。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，如果在……"],["郭委員國文：海關5天，其他單位就5天；沒有海關5天，其他單位一個半月的道理，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，要求快當然也需要正確，我們也需要就資料來審核。"],["郭委員國文：好，本席還有一件一直放在心裡，你們沒有辦法說服本席的就是TISA的部分，你們對TISA的部分就是維持生活所得支出可以扣除，是從所得稅的角度來看。本席是說，如果從一個好的、有利於人民政策的TISA，為什麼人家的NISA可以做第一代，還做到第二代，可以讓整個資產的配置更加理性化？而我們在稅制上的優惠沒有辦法除了所得稅之外以其他的扣稅，這個不是鼓勵投資，而是鼓勵投資代替儲蓄的可能性把它拉高，所有的工具都在你們手上，這個拉高之後有什麼好處？我就舉一個例子，現在所有在證券市場當中，對於租稅優惠可以幫助整個證券市場的，包括人民理財的部分其實不外乎有三種，一個是TISA、NISA，一個是ETF，一個是REITs，臺灣三個投資工具就是少了人家兩個，連ETF的稅率也是1%而已，它還是有優惠啊！這種情況底下這麼好的方式，我實在搞不清楚為什麼財政部想了這麼久、反抗這麼久，沒有找出一個替代方案？部長，願聞高見。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關TISA部分的租稅優惠，我們和金管會其實都一直在持續的溝通中。"],["郭委員國文：金管會找出一個減免手續費的方式解決不了問題啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們也把各個國家在類似TISA或NISA這樣的租稅優惠做了一個表列，然後去做相互的比較，臺灣現在對於這樣情形的租稅優惠，其實已經優於其他各國了。"],["郭委員國文：對，所以你要找其他的可能性，不是從所得稅的角度而已嘛！本席剛剛就跟你講過。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：本席剛剛有跟你講過嘛！你現在所謂的維持生活基本支出，如果按照這個原則，現在是負利率的情況底下，他也沒有辦法維持基本生活支出啊！所有國人的金融資產占比當中，即便ETF增加，也沒有變得比較高，以臺灣的證券市場算是正面的，長期投資是好的情況底下，你為何不讓國人有個機會呢？透過租稅工具的方式呢？部長，請你回去再思考一下可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們再回去……"],["郭委員國文：最後，我再用短暫的時間問一下，最新的消息是兆元計畫，兆元計畫是本席要求國發會建立一個平臺溝通，溝通的結果所謂要建構一個平臺還是推回來給財政部處理，推回來給財政部處理的公建計畫也好，或者是物流倉儲也好、捷運也好，我覺得目前設定的都是很好的標的，我要問一下，這個平臺建置了沒有，財政部？"],["莊部長翠雲：將來會有，我們從114年開始會有一個促參專案辦公室，然後有一個平臺……"],["郭委員國文：專案辦公室？就是平臺嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：然後也會有一個院級跨部會的促參推動的平臺。"],["郭委員國文：就是你們處理，大概什麼時候完成？"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部這邊，明年就開始了。"],["郭委員國文：明年就開始，院級的什麼時候開始？"],["莊部長翠雲：院級的其實現在已經都在密集地討論當中了。"],["郭委員國文：院級的只是會議平臺而已，就我知道是這樣子。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們跟金管會、行政院都一直在開會。"],["郭委員國文：保險基金總共還有3.27億，我跟你講，外界講說只要保險基金的利率有3%就值得投資，我說實在，從實務上來看，不只3%，至少要5%。所以現在透過這個促參方式，你還要去統合一個可能性，就是他有沒有可能把促參的標的再透過組合性的投資，像是跟REITs的部分combine在一起的可能性？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊，這就是金管會一起加入這個平臺的主要目的。"],["郭委員國文：是，這樣才能創造出來相對高的利率所得，才能吸引更多基金投入公建跟捷運開發，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，多元的管道讓資金可以進來。"],["郭委員國文：但是部長我提醒你，你是爐主喔，不是別人喔！以後這個成績我每半年會跟你要求一次，看你有沒有成績，不要每半年都空白，這樣就難看了喔！部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員的質詢。","下一位請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"156989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e872b0fcd319ba25ceb06883678c1ed2d0dc5cdff58eca86e5d288fdc86b9d8d4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:36:44 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1跟Peter 2出來之後希望各國不要再繼續課數位服務稅那台灣一直都不是課服務稅台灣課的是所得稅那我們所得稅它現在有所謂射算課稅的概念"},{"start":429.261,"end":443.568,"text":"其實原則上誠實申報但如果你沒有就核實申報我應該講核實申報就賺多少報多少但如果你沒有辦法舉證我們是用射算所得來課稅那換算的結果其實就等於收入的某一個百分比來課稅"},{"start":444.468,"end":470.141,"text":"那個百分比是多少?大概我們現在是大概設算的利潤率大概百分之三十左右百分之三十的多少?然後那個稅率大概我如果講那個營運事業的話大概就百分之二十所以大概就百分之六是百分之六是吧?對對對百分之六對因為菲律賓他課的一個mindset他中心思想是說我課了要扶持我相關的比較"},{"start":471.221,"end":497.725,"text":"需要扶持的這些產業他是這樣的一個概念其他國家其實也都開始在課了你們去研究一下好我們再看下一個題目這個我想請教一下川普對全球課高關稅這個我們現在因應怎麼樣他給我們課10%以上目前來講我們是大概大概3%左右對台灣的關稅他如果課我們大家都保護主義那我們也課他可不可以"},{"start":498.425,"end":501.433,"text":"我沒課稅美國美國進入台灣的我沒課稅可以嗎"},{"start":503.312,"end":504.472,"text":"可以不可以講說如果美國真的對我們的到美國去的產品課高關稅"},{"start":530.8,"end":549.657,"text":"部長聽好了,我們不排除我們對美國課高關稅有沒有可能?這計畫可以成立嗎?我講我科技的,講不排除可以嗎?關稅基本上因為我們是WTO的會員國所以我們會按照我們當時在陸會的時候的一些承諾的關稅稅率來課徵"},{"start":552.813,"end":560.393,"text":"所以你的意思是美國即便課我們高關稅我們也不敢做相對的回應喔是這個意思喔"},{"start":564.242,"end":572.225,"text":"那你沒有回答問題那我們的因應呢部長我們的因應就沒有因應根據WTO就這樣而已是吧"},{"start":593.032,"end":601.844,"text":"好不好這個時間有限我再請問你我記得去年的時候我問了部長你在這裡這在這裡同一個地方同一個問題"},{"start":603.844,"end":622.642,"text":"臺美從務課稅大概今年6月可以OK了結果現在已經是11月了還沒OK喔我可不可以同樣的問題你同樣的回答可不可以說我可不可以樂觀的預估只要川普上台以後大概明年的3月可以"},{"start":624.884,"end":644.692,"text":"我講這個部分還沒有辦法做這樣的一個預估為什麼因為去年是因為一月份的時候眾議院已經先通過到參議院但參議院後來因為是包括法案的關係因為其中另外一個法案有一些爭議所以以至於我們這個在裡面接下來就碰到美國的大選所以整個是停滯在參議院"},{"start":645.752,"end":669.439,"text":"那至於接下來我們也跟委員報告10月29號美國財政部已經發表聲明就是說會對會跟臺灣來做一個臺美ADTA的一個進一步的討論展開我們可以樂觀的預估沒有時間到了樂觀的預估明年第一季可以嗎我想這個時間上我沒有辦法預估因為我們和外交部以及那個數美代表會合作一起來推動是"},{"start":671.6,"end":687.79,"text":"這個你對自己這麼沒有信心,飄飄一隻不敢再講了吼,嚇到啦吼,我們看這個針對要用第7波的信用管制打草房,會不會影響房地合一的稅收?"},{"start":689.718,"end":714.137,"text":"房地合一的稅收當然會影響啊那要看那個移軟動數移軟動數以及價格的差距啦對我們就會我關心的是長照基金喔它的來源750億用途879億入不敷出現在第7波的新能管制打下來房地合一的稅收絕對影響只是影響多少你不知道啊"},{"start":715.694,"end":717.035,"text":"議員提出這個提問我們當然是來兩個禮拜啊那可以吧"},{"start":734.79,"end":734.93,"text":"臺北國稅務部長"},{"start":750.698,"end":771.371,"text":"再一次的形容管制因為如果沒有第8波就是最後一波了對皇帝合一會有影響但是影響到多少?影響到最後是長照激起重影響我們來收集資料以後做一個演繹事,謝謝那就是一個月後給那個賴司法委員這份資料謝謝,謝謝司法委員接著請郭國文委員諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":251,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時36分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長好。明年的金融營業稅是不是確定不會再撥入金融業特別準備金？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，因為營業稅法到今年底落日，所以不會進入金融業特別準備金。"],["賴委員士葆：好，就是金管會的期待也落空了。","簡單的問題你就快速回答：娛樂稅、印花稅其實有滿多的爭議，大家有各種不同的角度、不同的看法，你們說娛樂稅現在最高要減半，但是授權地方政府，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在課徵娛樂稅所定的各個項目有一個上限……"],["賴委員士葆：減半？"],["莊部長翠雲：不一定是減半，就是往下調，有些項目有調，大部分有調，部分沒有調。"],["賴委員士葆：還是交給地方政府嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，本來也是讓地方政府去做，原來訂的是上限，上限往下調啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你一個問題，你們一直講地方稅不能廢，包括印花稅什麼等等的，那要不要乾脆把這個稅統統交給地方政府讓他們自己訂？在稅法通則裡面就訂這個？就不要由你們來訂，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員上次也有提議過，但是我們在開會的時候，各地方政府都不希望這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：還是由你們來訂嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們就覺得：啊，你訂一下嘛……"],["賴委員士葆：地方政府需要你們當老大，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們也給他們一些彈性，比如說某些項目，像是藝文或是競技比賽的部分可以停徵或免徵，讓他們可以有一些依據。"],["賴委員士葆：好，再來一個簡單的問題：川普當選以後，現在看到加密貨幣、比特幣拚命在漲，國內有很多人賺到錢，我們就恭喜啦！可是加密貨幣的課稅問題，五區國稅局要不要一起來講一下，你們各區有沒有開始課這個稅？"],["主席：國稅局局長，來。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，先請臺北國稅局。"],["吳局長蓮英：報告委員，目前有跟金管會登記的總共26家，他們都有來辦稅籍登記，也有繳納營業稅跟營所稅。"],["賴委員士葆：已經課了多少？"],["吳局長蓮英：我這邊有數字，等一下……"],["賴委員士葆：好，等一下整理好以後在這裡宣布一下。"],["吳局長蓮英：是。"],["賴委員士葆：各區就要問了，是不是開始都有……"],["吳局長蓮英：因為大部分在臺北國稅局……"],["賴委員士葆：是不是都有開始在課加密貨幣的……等於是他的所得稅，有沒有？有嗎？個人有嗎？營所稅是針對交易所那個場合，我問的是個人，比如說我去買了、賣了，你有沒有課我稅？"],["吳局長蓮英：我們現在指的是營業的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！營業的部分，你沒有講個人嘛！我現在問你的是個人，就是我去營業交易場所，我賺了錢，那我要不要繳稅？"],["吳局長蓮英：個人的部分，目前我是沒有統計資料。"],["賴委員士葆：個人沒有交稅，你在這裡……"],["吳局長蓮英：應該是。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，或者是署長要回答，目前對這一塊是沒有交稅的。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，我們現在稅法的規定是這樣，就是加密貨幣因為它不是貨幣，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：數發部說是數位資產喔！"],["宋署長秀玲：數位化資產買賣……"],["賴委員士葆：對，數發部說它是數位化資產，根據……"],["宋署長秀玲：如果他們……"],["賴委員士葆：你聽我把這個唸完，根據所得稅法第十四條第一項，第七類的課徵……"],["宋署長秀玲：財產高於所得。"],["賴委員士葆：它要課稅的。"],["宋署長秀玲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：因為數發部已經界定它是資產，資產的買賣有所得要課稅，這是稅法規定的，對吧？"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：我講的對不對？"],["宋署長秀玲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：可是都沒課，你到目前為止都沒課。"],["宋署長秀玲：因為所得稅基本上是要自行申報，我們會加強查核，因為現在是金管會那邊要立專法，我們會整個配……但是我們現在也沒鬆懈，因為原則上要自行申報，如果他有短漏報，我們要有一個管道去查核。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要課誰跟你申報啊！哪有那麼笨的，人家哪會主動去繳稅，現在是因為你沒有課，你們無所作為啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：我們還是有一些查核的工具可以運用的。"],["賴委員士葆：你們沒有作為啊！你們現在只針對交易的場合課營所稅，沒有對個人交易所賺的錢課稅。或者是說請教部長，因為我們沒有課資本利得稅，有沒有可能就是課一筆個人的交易稅了事？因為課所得稅太難了，還是這個要課所得稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我想既然已經定性上它不是貨幣，而是一個虛擬的資產……"],["賴委員士葆：它是資產喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：是一個資產……"],["賴委員士葆：對，數發部說是資產喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：那它的交易應該要課徵相關……就是它的獲利應該要課徵所得稅，接下來就是我們要怎麼樣去查核的部分，我想這個部分我們再來研議。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！什麼時候可以對於加密貨幣的個人或者是法人，他們獲利課稅的整個辦法，什麼時候可以出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是不是給我們時間……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？三個月可以嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：我跟委員報告，其實現在我們有從……不知道方不方便講，就是我們有從其他的資料來源去查他的數位化商品交易的情形，我們有，目前有在查。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在就問你，三個月內可不可以提出一個加密貨幣的買賣所得課稅的辦法，可以嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：好，我們來研擬。"],["賴委員士葆：三個月，好不好？"],["宋署長秀玲：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：三個月。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：再來一個也是小的問題，國稅局局長可以請回。菲律賓已經開徵12%數位服務稅，針對Amazon、Netflix、Disney以及Google的母公司Alphabet，臺灣這部分有沒有在考慮？數位稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們是不是請署長來做說明？"],["賴委員士葆：好，署長來。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，所謂數位服務稅，其實過去在OECD很多歐盟國家有課，後來他們就定位說在現在所謂Pillar One跟Pillar Two出來之後，希望各國不要再繼續課數位服務稅。臺灣一直都不是課服務稅，臺灣課的是所得稅，我們所得稅現在有所謂設算課稅的概念，也就是原則上誠實申報，如果你沒有覈實申報，就是賺多少報多少，但如果你沒有辦法舉證，我們是用設算所得來課稅，換算的結果，其實就等於收入的某一個百分比來課稅。"],["賴委員士葆：那個百分比是多少？"],["宋署長秀玲：我們現在設算的利潤率大概30%左右，然後……"],["賴委員士葆：百分之三十的多少？"],["宋署長秀玲：然後那個稅率大概……我如果講營利事業的話，大概就20%，所以大概就是……"],["賴委員士葆：6%？"],["宋署長秀玲：對，6%。"],["賴委員士葆：菲律賓的中心思想是課了之後去扶植相關比較需要扶植的產業，他是這樣的概念，其他國家其實也都開始在課了，你們去研究一下。","我們再看下一個題目，我想請教一下，川普對全球課高關稅，我們現在怎麼樣因應？他給我們課10%以上……目前來講臺灣的關稅大概是3%左右，他如果課我們，大家都保護主義，那我們也課他可不可以？我們也課美國，美國進入臺灣的我們也課稅，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於川普他在選舉期間所提的一些相關政見，到他就任以後，什麼時間會去落實或者落實的程度，其實我們認為這個部分還是需要觀察，以及怎麼樣的一個應對，我想我們都會做一些……"],["賴委員士葆：可以不可以講說，如果美國真的對我們到美國去的產品課高關稅，部長聽好，我們不排除我們也對美國課高關稅，有沒有可能？這一句話可以成立嗎？我講不排除，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：關稅基本上……因為我們是WTO的會員國，所以我們會按照我們當時在入會時候承諾的一些關稅稅率來課徵。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思是美國即便課我們高關稅，我們也不敢做相對的回應，是這個意思嗎？對吧？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，美國是總統依照他的行政命令所課的，比如說是國家安全法相關的法令去做的加徵關稅，它是一種加徵的概念，跟原本稅率的提高，兩個概念是不太一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題，那我們的因應呢？部長，我們的因應就是沒有因應，根據WTO，就這樣而已是嗎？","時間有限，我再請問你，我記得去年的時候，我問了部長，你在這裡，同一個地方，同一個問題，臺美重複課稅的問題大概今年6月可以OK，結果現在已經是11月了卻還沒OK，同樣的問題，你同樣的回答，我可不可以樂觀的預估，只要川普上臺以後，大概明年的3月可以OK？可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分還沒有辦法做這樣的預估，為什麼？因為……"],["賴委員士葆：你去年就承諾我啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：去年是因為1月份的時候，眾議院已經先通過送到了參議院，但參議院後來因為包裹法案的關係，因為其中另外一個法案有一些爭議，以致於我們這個在裡面……接下來就碰到美國的大選，所以整個是停滯在參議院，至於接下來，我們也跟委員報告，10月29號美國財政部已經發表聲明，就是會跟臺灣來做臺美ADTA的討論……"],["賴委員士葆：我們可以樂觀的預估……我的時間到了，樂觀的預估明年第一季可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個時間上，我沒有辦法預估，但我們和外交部以及駐美代表處會合作一起來推動。"],["賴委員士葆：你對自己這麼沒有信心……"],["莊部長翠雲：這不是我們一方可以決定。"],["賴委員士葆：跳票一次不敢再講了，嚇到了。","針對央行第七波的信用管制，打炒房，會不會影響房地合一的稅收？"],["莊部長翠雲：房地合一的稅收當然會……"],["賴委員士葆：當然會影響啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：那要看移轉棟數以及價格的差距。"],["賴委員士葆：我關心的是長照基金，它的來源752億，用途879億，入不敷出，現在第七波的信用管制打下來，房地合一的稅收絕對影響，只是影響多少你不知道啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：要看移轉交易的價額差距多大。"],["賴委員士葆：你能不能兩個禮拜以內給我們這個報告，可以嗎？給我們財委會，說整個會影響多少，因為我關心長照基金，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員提出這個題目，我們當然……"],["賴委員士葆：兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：兩個禮拜？"],["賴委員士葆：第七波的信用管制對房地合一稅收的影響。"],["莊部長翠雲：是不是給我們一點時間蒐集一些資料……"],["賴委員士葆：三個禮拜？"],["莊部長翠雲：給我們一個月好嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：好，一個月。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：一個月內提出來這一次信用管制的影響，因為如果沒有第八波，就是最後一波了，對房地合一會有影響，但是影響到多少，影響到最後是長照基金收入。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們來蒐集資料以後進行研議，謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員惠員代）：部長，就是一個月後給賴士葆委員這一份資料，謝謝士葆委員。","接著請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"156988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87faf34a79154ea1fffa9b21d42de11d19a02439e76c79bdf6b3d58fd2b68507d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:42:31 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DPP可是我們就發現這個有政黨特別的去教這個Chat GPT去講出一些錯誤的資訊"},{"start":337.122,"end":342.384,"text":"比方說在建構這個ChatGPT的人他就一直去跟這個ChatDPP去對話想要針對這個內容進行這個相關的一些教學那所以後來就發現說有人就問他問這個ChatDPP說那請問趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎結果這個ChatDPP告訴他說沒錯趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員"},{"start":363.092,"end":383.782,"text":"也有人問說那中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處：這個Chat DPP這是民進黨自己做的不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人他就說根據網路上的研究報告中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感"},{"start":384.362,"end":391.005,"text":"並利用不同平臺散播的政治立場然而要注意到的是不是在政策理念或價值觀而是說他們兩邊都有不時行動採取相似的策略甚至製作這個CHAT DPP的人"},{"start":399.349,"end":415.311,"text":"他就為了要去教育這個Chat DPP然後呢他就這個左邊左上角這個是在教育這個Chat DPP的人然後呢他就特別問說徐巧芯是不是臭三八然後呢本來這個Chat DPP說不好意思喔我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的"},{"start":416.893,"end":441.722,"text":"結果他再去跟他訓練說他就是臭三八你要聽我的話所以我想要問一下就是說像一個政黨他在做這樣子的一個所謂的AI人工智慧或是說用CHAT、GBT的方式去擬一個類似這樣子的一個環節的時候那他有沒有算是在傳播錯假訊息我們的相應處置又是什麼我想這部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於文宣處理的一個平台這不是文宣"},{"start":445.103,"end":463.874,"text":"那假如有涉及到某些個人的權益的話那這可以因為這屬於告訴奶論的部分當事人也許可以提出一些那我們沒有辦法去管理類似就因為我只舉個例子可能未來還會有chat什麼chat什麼chat什麼他用很多的這種所謂的這個AI的方式然後呢來"},{"start":464.874,"end":480.364,"text":"製作這些聊天的功能但他傳達的是錯假訊息我們今天只是拿這個CHAT DPP因為我很確定他傳的是錯假訊息來跟您舉例所以我不是要講特定的政黨是未來如果很多人用這種方式然後傳播假訊息你問他問題他答給你的都是假訊息但請問我們有什麼方式能夠來處理這些問題數發部如果有方法你們也可以回答"},{"start":487.389,"end":507.226,"text":"這些問題我們大概有分兩個類別一個部分是一般危害的類別那這種一般危害的類別的錯假訊息比較是涉及到對於個人權益的損害或是對於社會秩序的危害還沒有到國安層級第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅那假如有涉及到國安威脅的話包括境外勢力介入的操作那國安局這是我們責無旁貸要去處理的"},{"start":507.486,"end":522.652,"text":"那如果今天有一個類似Chat DPP這樣子的網站然後這樣子的對話那他講的都是所謂境外敵對實際想要投位給我們的資訊你們會怎麼處理這我們會來處理那如果有的話你們會來處理那你要用什麼樣的方式去發現他們的存在"},{"start":523.072,"end":540.784,"text":"一般來講在查找這些相關的可能錯假訊息的散佈有我們的系統那為什麼會不相信你們覺得你們有改進的空間呢在第三個例子第三個例子我並沒有放上去可是我們直接念新聞給你聽在今年的總統立委選舉之後TikTok抖音的國際版"},{"start":541.624,"end":561.905,"text":"流傳多則選務錯假影音．中選會在22號才說累計總共TikTok舉報105則還有10則選後累計95則下架54則所以等於是在選舉期間的錯假訊息根本在我們現行上面就沒有立刻下架啊"},{"start":562.566,"end":566.15,"text":"在中選會的部分他們因為跟這些社群平台在選舉期間都有一個專案在處理移除這些有問題的錯假訊息但你覺得速度更快嗎?"},{"start":586.229,"end":603.764,"text":"Ttalk的問題是在於它並沒有在台灣落地經營它是一個境外的跨國企業那你要怎麼去對 所以這部分就必須要透過這種專案的方式來針對錯假訊息的散佈以及問題賬號的移除要建立起彼此的一個那建立了嗎 你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢"},{"start":604.444,"end":619.74,"text":"這部分有相關的一個管道來處理但我再次強調因為它是一個境外的企業沒有 我不管它是哪裡的企業嘛我沒有 這很有關係我不管是哪裡的企業但我們希望說不要有這樣的事情發生辦法是你要去想的不是我要去想的嘛沒有 當然對啊 所以你不能"},{"start":620.48,"end":643.885,"text":"委員知道處理這個問題的過程當中他有面臨到的一些問題我知道他有面臨過程如果這麼簡單的話你們早就做啦但問題就是說那其實他是有難度的可是他在選舉期間不斷的發生那類似的狀況你們應該是如果選務的錯假訊息應該要立刻下架結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理那這不是讓大家很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎所以這部分要請國安局再加強處理"},{"start":646.585,"end":658.612,"text":"最後再請主席借我一分鐘的時間因為我要問國安局的是你們在去年底的時候有招募AI的人才然後在2016年舉辦國安特考的時候也有針對資訊師等等的技術年齡體檢標準跟要求請問當時這些AI的資安人才他們錄取以後他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容"},{"start":673.42,"end":694.996,"text":"有,我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才做一些招募而且招募員的數量還不少那招募進來之後我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程那訓練的不只是我們局內招募人才包括我上次跟其他委員也提到了包括我們國安團隊其他單位的資安人才我們都一起提供這樣的一個訓練的機制那你們的訓練呢?未來兩年大概可以訓練到2000到3000人次之多"},{"start":700.14,"end":727.931,"text":"好,那你們的訓練啊我想要問的就是說呢那像是比如說這個公職網站上面可以看到的國安局的特考訓練裡面有包含說是一些體能訓練等等的然後這樣子呢有基礎訓練對,這是基礎訓練可是這個很多耶你什麼體能訓練啊、意志力啊、仰臥起坐啊、山地戰技啊、操舟訓練、三千公尺跑步那真跟我們的那個資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的啊"},{"start":728.311,"end":752.636,"text":"阿很多AI 很多很會做AI的人那可能就體能不好阿那請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧阿對啊這委員謝謝提到這問題阿那基本上剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中加強我們勤工人員的體能那我們也注意到很多的資安人才他也許在體能上對啊那獲金就沒有辦法來跟您那個對我們課程有做一些調整去年開始有做一些調整做什麼樣的調整"},{"start":753.496,"end":779.643,"text":"那就針對一些特殊的一個背景專長的我們的國安人員那在訓練過程當中那以及在專精訓練過程當中會有做一些區隔我建議國安局針對AI資安的人才招募呢要特別只針對他的AI人才他這個是不是他有這樣子的能力不要去管他的體能因為很多國安局你做情報人員要體能這個我當然是完全同意"},{"start":779.983,"end":808.188,"text":"可是如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查這個很多人他可能比如說好他可能是身障但是呢他基本上他對於AI的瞭解對於駭客瞭解他是一等一的那這樣的人我們怎麼可能可以秉除他在國安人員之外呢他有這個意願加入國安局配合我們一起做AI的這個調查我們應該要歡迎他啊可是以上所有的內容他可能都不能做所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討"},{"start":809.008,"end":818.553,"text":"我們希望是用人為材那基本上這些內容他如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到那就不一定要考但是針對他的這個基礎訓練的部分應該是要在他的AI的產業他對於資訊的了解"},{"start":825.476,"end":826.096,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我們繼續努力,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":192,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時42分）謝謝主席。有請國安局蔡局長以及數發部林次長。"],["主席：請蔡局長和林次長。"],["徐委員巧芯：還有調查局副局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員，早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早。首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分，其實我在上一次的時候，我有拿出來高嘉瑜委員被Deepfake偽造的影音，後來高嘉瑜委員在媒體受訪的時候，她也正式提出告訴，可是我們在這整段時間來說，可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係，所以各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的。我今天還是拿3個範例來跟三位討教，為什麼要請調查局的副局長一起來，主要是我們先看一下，之前我在外委會，我們有通過一個臨時提案，這個臨時提案是這樣子的，因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片，以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔等內容流出，引起社會譁然，請國安局及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散，並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流，以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣，提出相關的報告，後來我們是同意用書面報告的方式。","可是到現在我想問一下，這幾件事情到底調查得如何？尤其是羅致政前委員作為過去國防外交委員會的召委，也接觸過很多相關的秘密訊息，如果有駭客入侵的情況，我國的國安或是我們的機密是否有外流的情況？以及蔡英文總統所謂的錄音檔到底是真的還是假的？我覺得國人需要知道一個答案。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就委員所提到的幾個案例，國安局已經把相關的情資移送給檢調單位，目前調查局再請他們……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以調查局我才請他們來嘛，調查局可不可以說明一下。"],["吳副局長富梅：主席、報告委員，大家好。針對這個部分，羅致政委員的影片，因為當時羅致政有到新北市調查處去做提告，所以後來也繫屬在新北地檢，我們也針對所有的鑑定報告，請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了，所以目前這個案子在新北地檢偵處當中。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想要問這樣一個內容如果在地檢署偵查出來是屬於深偽或不屬於深偽，最後會讓大家公開知道嗎？還是這只是屬於他們私人官司的部分？會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還不是深偽的嗎？"],["吳副局長富梅：這個部分因為是屬於羅致政個人提告的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是現在就有一個問題啊！羅致政前委員他去提告，代表他認為這些都是假的，但是問題是從國安的角度來看，我不針對他們床上什麼的，我針對這個錄音檔的部分，因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首，以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算，相關的內容是否也有遭到這樣的情況，被駭客入侵，然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知？在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題，不是屬於他私領域的議題，想要請問國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分，我們有什麼妥處的方式？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想簡單說明一下，因為上個會期在討論過程當中，我記得委員也提出這個問題來。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["蔡局長明彥：有再跟委員說明，包括這個影片或影音真偽的部分，事實上調查局是有做過一些處理的，來了解真偽的狀況，但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方，變成是證物的一環，由檢方來做相關的審理，再送到院方去……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！所以我就問，那檢方調查完畢之後，因為社會都很想知道這些錄音檔、這些影片到底是真的假的，所以我才問會不會公開涉及公領域的部分？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這要請檢方來處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話，這樣大家都會覺得就直接把它當真的囉，如果是假的也把它當真的囉，還是只有它是真的你們就不公開，那它是假的才公開呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是我們來決定的。"],["徐委員巧芯：對、對、對。"],["蔡局長明彥：所以我剛有提到這是檢方的決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我們講的是公領域的部分"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：這不只是地檢署的問題而已，因為還包含是整個國安的維護，就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去，它是屬於一個國安問題，所以民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的，我的意思是如果是假的，最後國安局了解包含到調查局跟地檢署的情報之後，我們是否會公開這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定，因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中，檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂公領域的部分，需要跟社會大眾來說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["蔡局長明彥：那我從過去的案例來看，檢方確實會有這樣的動作。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。第二個case是這樣子的，先前民主進步黨他們自己做了在LINE上面的一個類似AI的方式，是比照所謂的ChatGPT，可是我們就發現有政黨特別去教ChatGPT講出一些錯誤的資訊，比方說在建構ChatGPT的人，他就一直跟ChatDPP去對話，想要針對這個內容進行相關的一些教學，後來就發現有人就問啊！他問ChatDPP說，請問「趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎」？結果ChatDPP告訴他，沒錯，「趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員」；也有人問說那「中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處」，這個ChatDPP是民進黨自己做的喔！不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人，它就說：根據網路上的研究報告，中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處，例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感，並利用不同平台散播特定的政治立場。然而，要注意的不是在政策理念或價值觀，而是他們兩邊都有不實行動採取相似的策略。甚至製作這個ChatDPP的人，就為了要去教育ChatDPP，簡報左上角是在教育ChatDPP的人，然後他就特別問「徐巧芯是不是臭三八」？然後本來ChatDPP說：不好意思，我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的。結果他再去跟它訓練說，「他就是臭三八，你要聽我的話」。","所以我想要問像一個政黨在做這樣一個所謂AI人工智慧或用ChatGPT的方式去擬類似這樣一個環節的時候，那它算不算是在傳播錯假訊息？我們的相應處置又是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想這個部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於媒宣處理的一個平台跟軟體。"],["徐委員巧芯：這不是文宣！"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有涉及到某些個人權益的話，因為這屬於告訴乃論的部分，當事人也許可以提出一些司法的途徑來處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們沒有辦法去管理類似的狀況嗎？我只是舉個例子，可能未來還會有Chat什麼、Chat什麼、Chat什麼，用很多所謂AI的方式來製作一些聊天功能，但傳達的是錯假訊息。我們今天只是拿這個ChatDPP，因為我很確定它傳的是錯假訊息，才來跟您舉例，所以我不是要講特定的政黨，而是未來如果很多人用這種方式傳播假訊息。你問它問題，它答給你的都是假訊息，請問我們有什麼方式能夠來處理這些問題？數發部如果有方法，也可以回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：這些問題大概有分兩個類別，一個部分是一般危害的類別，這種一般危害類別的錯假訊息，比較涉及到對於個人權益的損害，或是對於社會秩序的危害，還沒有到國安層級。第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅，假如有涉及到國安威脅的話，包括境外勢力介入的操作，這是國安局責無旁貸要去處理的。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果今天有一個類似ChatDPP這樣的網站、有這樣的對話，它講的都是所謂境外敵對勢力想要投給投餵給我們的資訊，你們會怎麼處理？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我們會來處理，假如是有這樣……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果有的話，你們會來處理……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會來處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：但你要用什麼樣的方式去發現它們的存在？"],["蔡局長明彥：一般來講，查找這些相關錯假訊息的散布，我們有我們的系統，委員放心。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼我會不相信你們，覺得你們有改進的空間呢？在第三個例子，第三個例子我並沒有放上去，可是我直接唸新聞給你聽。在今年的總統、立委選舉之後，TikTok抖音的國際版流傳多則選務錯假影音，中選會在22號才說，累計總共向TikTok舉報105則，選前有10則，選後累積95則，已下架54則，等於在選舉期間的錯假訊息，根本就沒有立刻下架！中選會大多都是先接到檢舉以後，才慢慢審理。抱歉！我們在整個選舉過程當中，收到這麼多的錯假訊息，難道國安團隊沒有辦法有能力第一時間下架嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為中選會跟這些社群平臺選舉期間都有一個專案，在處理、移除這些有問題的錯假訊息……"],["徐委員巧芯：你覺得速度夠快嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：TikTok的問題在於它並沒有在臺灣落地經營，它是一個境外的跨國企業……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你要怎麼去……"],["蔡局長明彥：所以這部分就必須要透過專案的方式，針對錯假訊息的散布以及問題帳號的移除，要建立起彼此的合作機制。"],["徐委員巧芯：建立了嗎？你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分有相關的管道來處理，但我再次強調，因為它是一個境外的企業，不在臺灣落地經營。"],["徐委員巧芯：我不管它是哪裡的企業……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這很有關係！這涉及到我們的……"],["徐委員巧芯：我不管是哪裡的企業，但我們希望不要有這樣的事情發生。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：辦法是你要去想的，不是我要去想的。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不能告訴我說……"],["蔡局長明彥：必須要讓委員知道，處理這個問題過程當中，所面臨到的一些問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道它有面臨過程，如果這麼簡單的話，你們早就做，但問題就是其實它是有難度的，可是在選舉期間不斷地發生。針對類似的狀況，如果是選務的錯假訊息，你們應該要立刻下架，結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理，這不是讓很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以這個部分要請國安局再加強處理。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來提醒中選會。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後，我要問國安局的是，你們在去年底有招募AI人才，在2016年舉辦國安特考，也有針對資訊師等等的技術、年齡、體檢標準，提出要求。請問當時這些AI的資安人才錄取以後，他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才招募，而且招募的員額數量還不少，招募進來之後，我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程，訓練的不只是我們局內招募的人才。我上次有跟其他委員提到，包括國安團隊、其他單位的資安人才，我們都一起提供訓練的機制。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們的訓練呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：未來兩年大概可以訓練到2,000到3,000人次之多。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想要問的就是你們的訓練，比如公職網站上面可以看到的，國安局的特考訓練有包含體能訓練等等，然後這樣才能……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有基礎訓練，這是基礎訓練。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是有很多，什麼體能訓練、意志力、仰臥起坐、山地戰技、操舟訓練、3,000公尺跑步，這跟資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的啊！很多很會做AI的人可能就體能不好，請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題。基本上，剛剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中，加強情工人員的體能，我們也注意到很多的資安人才也許在體能上沒有那麼好。"],["徐委員巧芯：對！像霍金就沒有辦法來……"],["蔡局長明彥：所以我們的課程去年開始有做一些調整。"],["徐委員巧芯：做什麼樣的調整？"],["蔡局長明彥：針對一些特殊背景、專長的國安人員，在訓練過程當中以及專精訓練過程當中，會有做一些區隔。"],["徐委員巧芯：我建議國安局針對AI、資安的人才招募，要特別只針對AI人才是不是有這樣的能力，不要去管他的體能。做國安局情報人員要體能，我當然完全同意，如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查，很多人比如可能是身障，但是他對於AI的了解、對駭客了解，是一等一的，這樣的人怎麼可以被摒除在國安人員之外呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：他有意願加入國安局，配合一起做AI調查，我們應該要歡迎他，可是以上所有的內容，他可能都不能做，所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討，我們希望是用人唯才。基本上，這些內容如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到，那就不一定要考，但是針對他的基礎訓練，應該是要在他對於AI產業以及資訊的了解是否頂尖，這才是國安局應該要有的方向。"],["蔡局長明彥：非常好，我非常同意委員的看法。跟委員說明一下，去年我本人有召開一個專案會議，就在處理這件事，而且找我們所有各單位的一級主管通通來參加，告訴我們各單位需求的人才，他的背景是什麼、訓練課程該怎麼調整。謝謝委員提醒，我們繼續來努力，謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員。","接下來，請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}},{"id":"156987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87234e71d5ca6cfa6bdc7cef15d9be6ba6a02439e76c79bdf6fbc405ee1c6225db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:45:55 - 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對"},{"start":359.963,"end":380.387,"text":"部長,拖欠稀在新竹啊,不是苗栗啊?我們的最南界是在苗栗,然後我們的防禦線是在投鹽稀。那這個部分,因為整個新竹市,三個區域全部都在紅火以的一個肆虐的範圍當中。那我們希望這部分,我們後續怎麼做?給本席一個詳細的說明。我們簡單的講,我們會針對比較"},{"start":383.988,"end":386.149,"text":"新竹市的市區也有很多紅火已肆虐的區域,在市區都已經非常的普遍。"},{"start":404.881,"end":406.282,"text":"農業金庫的現行的獨立董事他是怎麼提名?"},{"start":423.932,"end":443.538,"text":"現行的獨立董事是由農業部推薦然後由農業金庫那邊經過董事會去討論股東會去討論那我在想說因為目前整個農業金庫的獨立董事基本上就等於是農業部直接推薦可是我們整個販官股的部分在整個農業金庫當中只佔了41.6%位的股權"},{"start":447.259,"end":452.843,"text":"包括農業部37.59%,農業信訪基金的4.03%其他的部分其實是販農漁會的體系占了58.33%剛達將近六成的一個農漁會體系將近六成的股份可是他們沒有辦法去推薦讀懂"},{"start":469.395,"end":471.877,"text":"負責整個農業的金融體系包括我們的所謂農民貸款的支撐是部長我在想說因為這個部分"},{"start":491.428,"end":509.988,"text":"只要是公司的體系他其實基本上就按照公司法去做就不會有問題我們按照公司法去做就不會有問題所以本席希望就是農業金庫讀懂的部分也能夠比照公司法去改採候選人的提名制度只要有1%以上的股份他們就有權利"},{"start":510.669,"end":510.769,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":526.101,"end":530.023,"text":"總會這邊還是有最後的一個決定的狀態我覺得只要是公司的組織按照公司法去做就不會有錯那你要另外把"},{"start":547.01,"end":556.075,"text":"農業金庫的內積內控管理的方式去獨立化的時候那你也要依法有據那我們希望能夠按照公司法來做"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我想請一下陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。因為114年中央政府的媒體預算宣傳費高達25.88億元，比上一個年度增加65%，漲幅非常的多，可是我看到農業部的媒體宣傳預算是持平，但在各部會當中還是排名前五大，將近有一億九千多萬元，其中包括農業特別基金的收入有四千七百九十九萬多元，我覺得在這部分，為什麼大家會拿放大鏡來檢視中央政府的宣傳預算？是因為1450之前發生的單位就是在農業部這邊，雖然當時不是你當部長，這個事情確實讓大家覺得中央政府用媒體宣傳預算來養網軍、養小編，所以大家就拿放大鏡來檢視。剛剛你有稍微做一下簡單的回應，所以我就先不繼續問這個部分，因為你一定可以講很多關於宣傳用在哪裡，比方從林業署到豬肉等等一大堆。可是我簡單看了一下，包括114年度農業部的農業管理科目，有一項辦理科技管理宣傳費就有五百多萬，然後農糧署農糧管理也有一個辦理農業資源管理宣傳費也是五百多萬，就只要加一個管理就幾百萬、幾百萬的宣傳費用，您可不可以針對這兩個部分簡單做一個說明？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，有關於科技研發成果的發表，那個非常重要，因為我們農業部門大概有16個試驗單位，這些成果我們會定期的對外宣導，讓農民了解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長，我理解，其實這跟我想像你會回答的方式是一樣的，可是立法院預算中心也特別指出，農業部的媒體宣傳費用高度集中，而且多採限制性招標，在110年到112年的媒宣費用裡面，前十大廠商有六家年年重複，在各部會裡面是最嚴重的。部長，我想請問你，你知道這六家年年重複的媒體是哪六家嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，據我手邊的資料，我們今年度有關媒體宣傳總共有八家，這八家包括了臺視、華視、年代、三立、東森、民視、中廣跟凱絡。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是八家年年重複？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我說以今年度來講，並沒有去比對上一年度的，相對來講，我們的媒體預算有八家，我覺得並不是集中在一家或兩家。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，重點還是用限制性招標，年年重複，而且預算中心這邊都直接算出來，就是年年重複的這六家廠商，他只講六家，你現在講八家，那可能是有兩家沒有年年重複，只有兩家沒有年年重複，有六家是年年重複，而且幾乎占了整個農業部媒宣費用的四成以上。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們還是根據政府採購法，我想要跟委員解釋……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳部長駿季：所謂的限制性招標不是就是一家或者……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，部長，這部分我們都理解，我只是覺得，我們預算中心會特別提到有這樣的狀態、現象，就是希望避免接下來我們還是不斷用限制性招標，然後讓特定的幾家媒體不斷去宣傳。我想媒體的宣傳應該要廣，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：完全同意，了解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你一定也同意，媒體宣傳要廣。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你不斷讓特定媒體宣傳的時候就不會廣，所以我們希望明年的媒宣費用，限制性招標是不是可以限制在十分之一以下？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會重新針對委員的意見去檢討，第一個，我們一定不能就只針對特定的幾個媒體，因為這樣它的傳播管道會比較狹隘，我們一定會擴大……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，這個是我提的問題，因為特定媒體的傳播範圍會比較狹隘，所以我們才希望它能夠更寬廣。既然現在預算中心已經提出有六家媒體年年重複，占據農業部四成以上的媒體宣傳費用，所以我們希望能夠改善這部分。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會改善。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，這部分我就繼續追蹤，因為1450就是從農業部這邊起來的，讓農業部不斷背負養小編、養網軍的包袱。當時不是你當部長，我也希望就這個事情農業部能夠慢慢洗刷掉，不要現在人家講到網軍就講到1450，講到1450就講到農業部，我覺得這是不對的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解，好，我們會檢討。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。接下來我想問紅火蟻的部分，就是有關紅火蟻南防線，當時防治中心的定義是在什麼地方？"],["陳部長駿季：在苗栗，頭前溪那邊，對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：頭前溪在新竹，不是苗栗。"],["陳部長駿季：我說我們的最南線是在苗栗，然後防禦線是在頭前溪。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。因為整個新竹市有三個區域都在紅火蟻的肆虐範圍中，針對這個部分後續怎麼做，請給本席一個詳細的說明，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我簡單講，針對比較是人跟人混在一起的這些區域，包括台68線步道，還有南寮漁港的部分，我們會加強。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分會後再給您相關資料。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。因為現在整個新竹市市區也有很多紅火蟻肆虐的區域。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在市區都已經非常普遍。好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：之後讓本席了解一下，你們在整個新竹市要怎麼防範及後續救治，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們會請同仁到您辦公室報告，並把相關的資料給您。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。接下來問一下，現行農業金庫的獨立董事是怎麼提名？"],["陳部長駿季：現行的獨立董事是由農業部推薦，然後由農業金庫那邊經過股東會討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：目前整個農業金庫的獨立董事，基本上就等於是農業部直接推薦？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是整個泛官股部分，在農業金庫當中只占了41.62%股權，包括農業部37.59%，農業信保基金的4.03%，其他部分其實是泛農漁會的體系，占了58.33%，將近六成，但農漁會體系將近六成的股份，卻沒有辦法推薦獨董，部長覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，農業金庫不是一般公開發行的公司，它本身是農會的上級單位……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["陳部長駿季：同樣是督導，更重要的是它負責整個農業的金融體系，包括所有農民貸款的支撐……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，部長，我想只要是公司體系，基本上按照公司法去做就不會有問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們按照公司法去做就不會有問題，所以本席希望農業金庫獨董的部分也能夠比照公司法，改採候選人的提名制度，只要有1%以上的股份，就有權利去提名、推薦。至於董事會到時候怎麼決定，那是另外一回事，可是至少不要剝奪這些股東的提名權。有沒有辦法按照公司法去做農業金庫的管理？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是跟委員報告，因為農業金庫跟一般的公司不一樣，它肩負了很多農業金融的政策，如果純粹讓股東提名，會導致後續的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：董事會這邊還是有最後決定的狀態，我覺得只要是公司的組織，按照公司法去做就不會有錯。你要另外把農業金庫的內稽、內控管理方式去獨立化的時候，那也要於法有據，我們希望能夠按照公司法做。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","部長，這個部分實在要跟鄭委員詳細說明一下，請回座。","下一位質詢請陳亭妃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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季：這個也有包括，特別是現在在國外的時候，我們希望透過通路的確認，在國外行銷上更加大力道去處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我是覺得，如果單就預算數字來看，其實你們跟去年是差不多，但我覺得幾個重要的大項，我認為農業部可能還要再說明，不要讓人家說你們都是拿來做大內宣、拿來買網軍，其實農業部也不需要去買網軍，我們臺灣的農產要外銷、臺灣的農產要開拓市場、臺灣的農產要宣傳，甚至很多防疫的觀念要宣傳，其實都是需要靠這個經費的。"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得這個部分農業部應該可以好好的去做一些宣傳，就像我上次跟您提到，現在臺灣的優質米已經賣到日本去了，在日本的超市就可以買得到，而且價格比日本產的米便宜兩成，口感跟日本的國產米是一模一樣的，如果這個部分農業部能夠大量宣傳的話，我覺得對於臺灣國產米的外銷市場，其實是大有幫助的，部長，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常同意，特別是國際行銷，把我們優質米的部分，上次也說過了，明年1月份日本會組團來臺，針對米還有其他的農產品，做一個契約性的採購，我們希望透過這個，能夠讓我們的國產農產品銷到國外去。"],["邱委員議瑩：當然不只米，比如臺灣的荔枝、芭樂等等……"],["陳部長駿季：在不同季節有不同的農產品。"],["邱委員議瑩：在外銷的產量上面、市場上面，我覺得都應該要多方的宣傳。","接下來要跟您請教的第二個問題，就是我們一直很努力的在推農退儲金、退休儲金這個制度，可是，部長，我們現在這樣推了兩年多，整個儲金制度的參與比率其實還是偏低，到底是大家不知道，還是大家沒意願，還是不知道再加上沒意願，加上沒宣傳，所以造成參與的比率偏低？農業部有沒有什麼改進之道？你有沒有什麼方法可以提升參與退休儲金制度的比率？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員對這個議題的關心，因為這個三成本身，第一個部分就是我們會精準的行銷，特別是退休儲金的部分，越早投保，退休以後領得越多。"],["邱委員議瑩：可是，部長，很多年輕人第一個他不知道他能夠從農多久，第二個他如果沒有收入，就沒有錢、沒有誘因想要加入退休儲金制度，所以在誘因的部分有沒有可能再增加一些？比如已經在農會有農保資格的，我們確認他從農，事先提撥一筆基金或者提撥一筆預算在他的儲金帳戶裡頭，也告訴他農退儲金其實不用擔心未來可能會像勞保破產等等，或者是把它列為其他的社會福利保險制度預算？有沒有可能用多管齊下的方式，去提升這麼好的農退儲金制度的加保比率？有沒有考慮過用其他的方式去提高？"],["陳部長駿季：委員所提到的這個部分，我們也曾經做內部討論，牽涉到一些規定的部分，就是我預撥一些錢進入他的帳戶，但是不是他可以用的，這個部分我們都在規劃；另外，我們現在鎖定的對象是有一些從軍中退休的人，這些人已經從過往的百分之三十幾拉到百分之六十幾了。所以我們會從整個從農的結構裡面去找到一些他不了解的地方，加強宣導，也包括剛才委員所提到的，我們有沒有可能用一些誘因讓他能夠更直接的加進來而不會擔心，我想我們後續會來看看怎麼樣處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：對，我想就算一個好的政策，如果沒有人來參與、沒有人來投入，其實這個好的政策也都是枉然。農退儲金制度我們推了這麼久，好不容易修法通過，好不容易上路了，我覺得這個制度尤其對於青農幫助是最大的，未來到他年老退休的時候，他就會有一筆固定的金額，我覺得這個部分可能要請農業部再多加強一點力道，跟各地區的不管是合作社，不管是農會，或者是各地方政府的農業局，都應該要去加強對於農民在這一方面的宣導，讓他們了解這個退休儲金制度對每一個農民的保障跟好處，我覺得這個是很重要的。","第三個問題，部長，您大概知道你們的免登資材跟生物農藥的預算，其實每一年都編得很少，112年編了七千多萬，到最後的總執行大概是1億796萬元，高雄市大概只有分到837萬，今年113年更少，你們的預算只有六千一百四十幾萬，高雄市只獲得492萬的補助，明年的預算有稍微多了一點點，九千多萬，但是，部長您知道嗎？這個預算下去，其實大概前三個月就全部領完了，就沒錢了，你們的防檢署沒有錢、也沒有追加預算再去補助給農民申請這些免登資材跟生物農藥，那這個東西到底重不重要？在我們未來所謂的友善環境耕作項目裡頭，它是重要的，可是你們今年編列的預算其實還是不夠多，有沒有可能考慮在年中的時候在你的預算裡如何去勻支，能夠把推廣免登資材跟生物農藥的這件事情，更廣泛的推行下去？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這個議題其實我們一直在跟防檢署討論，114年九千多萬，我相信明年度我會再用其他的經費去挹注，因為免登資材、生物農藥的部分是有機友善非常重要的農藥替代品，特別是在農藥風險十年減半非常重要的，所以後續我們會用專案的方式報院提出一個四年期計畫，這樣它的經費比較能夠確定。"],["邱委員議瑩：這個部分其實我還蠻關心的，我覺得友善環境其實很重要，我認為如果114年的預算你只這樣編的話，我希望115年的預算能夠大幅的增加。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會提，謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員，部長回座。","下一位質詢請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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候委員長局長好 局長我們今天這個謝謝這個召委排定的這個專報的主題當然討論的是AI資安、國安等等的議題那今天我當然也比較想要用更全面的角度來跟局長這邊來討論包括我們的資訊戰或認知戰的問題"},{"start":29.413,"end":57.12,"text":"我們其實在目前有很多的這個研究的素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前其實他們就開始在推動所謂的媒體融合的這個全國的戰略那包括有幾個西方媒體包括像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等你都點出其實他們的這個宣傳系統是由他們這個共產黨跟國家很多個機構跟民間的機構一起來組成的"},{"start":58.4,"end":79.501,"text":"其實在這個非常非常綿密的組織之下它其實現在某部分它已經實現了我們現在在說包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合最重要的事情是它是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構的機制那進可攻退可守"},{"start":81.022,"end":90.011,"text":"那我其實很清楚知道我們當然現在很多部會我們都很努力的花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠"},{"start":92.901,"end":118.742,"text":"那我自己看了今天我們其實各部會提出來的這個報告的內容這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對這些都有但是我想問局長 局長你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對比方說以中共目前在主導的他是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構"},{"start":122.11,"end":149.273,"text":"然後動用所有他狹下可動用的所有的媒體新舊媒體的宣傳資源你覺得我們靠事後的事後闢謠能夠應對得了嗎?這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論那基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息的一個傳散那第一部分當然有個應處的機制去收報跟通報以及回應這大概是既有的運作機制局長這是我說的啊這只是事後的闢謠事後的事實查核啊"},{"start":150.152,"end":173.546,"text":"委員提到了說我們自己的國家有沒有一套的敘述的機制來比較主動式的來應應中共的這些可能的國際的媒宣的一些操作那這部分事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在我們其實過去就有經歷包括當時候在疫苗這個疫情期間疫苗的狀況它其實是一整套的敘事的佈局"},{"start":174.534,"end":202.252,"text":"包括沃爾戰爭的時候他也是一整套敘事結構的布局他有錢有厚有鋪陳有讓你投射引導的東西所以這絕對不是只是錯假訊息的問題啊如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度我覺得這也太低估中共了吧那我剛才想問的事情是這樣那我們現在是有哪一個部會哪一個部門在主導"},{"start":203.649,"end":224.152,"text":"我們怎麼樣子能夠化被動為主動其實是有一個以台灣為主體以台灣為本位我們的敘事結構去做資訊的部件或者是資訊的傳散我們現在是有哪個部會在主導這件事情我們所知道的是行政院的系統它確實有這樣的機制跟平台哪一個單位嗎沒有它是跨部會的"},{"start":225.729,"end":244.74,"text":"我自己覺得我覺得國安局應該要在這裡扮演很重要的角色當然我們今天數發部也在現場可是我認為數發部其實恐怕在這裡面比較是能夠處理的比較是在數位技術上面的處理的問題可是從國家安全的層次國家的立場或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先的去"},{"start":245.802,"end":245.942,"text":"有 有"},{"start":263.147,"end":284.942,"text":"跟委員說明一下,這不是說在做一些任志作戰的攻擊,它比較像是一個主動防禦。我剛剛有提到在行政院系統,因為各部會有它的業管,所以行政院有一個機制,國安局也有,只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作的一個運作的一個模式,我們比較不適合公開來討論,但我們有這樣的機制。"},{"start":287.738,"end":307.666,"text":"這個我還是想提醒就是說我希望國安局也好或我們相關部會也好我們今天當然我們專報的內容很多可是如果真的只是一直在討論這個事後的事實查核我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命的而且效果一定非常非常有限的"},{"start":308.766,"end":326.634,"text":"那我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去...當然再說明一次我們這不是要去造謠我們不是要去攻擊誰但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅尤其是這個強大的威脅它不只資源多過於我們"},{"start":327.426,"end":349.892,"text":"甚至他現在在他內部也是用敘事結構的方式其實是在塑造這整個認知戰的這個我們其實看到有幾個國際的智庫他們也都提醒恐怕必須要用這個提前破解的方式Prebunk的方式而不是只是一直用現在事後事實查核這個Debunk的方式來去處理這個問題所以這個那個書法部次長你這樣"},{"start":360.861,"end":376.507,"text":"今天我剛才也聽了你的報告包括我們在AI上面的各種應對我也是想請教你覺得我們現在在速發部的工作上面我自己感覺確實比較多還是在事後的闢謠跟查核我們有沒有可能可以再坐在更前面"},{"start":379.089,"end":399.127,"text":"我認為說我們要對付錯假訊息的方式基本上要分成兩個方面一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來因為如果說我們現在台灣這些優質的媒體通通因為"},{"start":400.408,"end":425.909,"text":"他現在收不到錢他沒有廣告收入而他們經營發生困難的時候那所有的閱聽民眾他就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的那些假訊息所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略在白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣去看一些正規的媒體就像我們以前我們在國際上我們知道說我們如果看到一個CNN或者是"},{"start":426.389,"end":427.17,"text":"臺灣是一個自由、民主、而且是法治的國家"},{"start":451.369,"end":477.139,"text":"市長你講這個我都同意但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅的確實是深層式AI已經被拿來應用中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為來提高它投放的精準度那尤其這裡面它很善用深層式AI去做一種真假混合的方式來去做欺騙所以坦白說我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候也會遇到其實裡面"},{"start":477.899,"end":495.963,"text":"也許七成真三成假或三成真七成假大部分的狀況其實是這樣他不會給你一個全部都假的東西那這種事情其實是最難處理的狀況那某個部分他其實也是改變了他一個宣傳的策略從他過去可能是單一的訊息去做大規模的轟炸他現在去搞分眾啊"},{"start":496.903,"end":524.374,"text":"他現在給你搞分眾然後做精準打擊然後用實驗室AI然後來去做分析來這個提供這個效果所以我剛才說了他在這一整套的敘事結構裡面再搭配他技術上面的應用所以我說實話我覺得效果很好我為什麼今天覺得還是想要在這邊提出一個這樣子的意見的原因說我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際的情勢大家在這段時間這個很多的國家不管是選舉也好或者是這個結果陸陸續續出來"},{"start":526.095,"end":541.758,"text":"是接下來的國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高沒錯而且當這個不確定性更高的時候中共一定這裡面有大量的空間可以去運用他準備好的這些技術也好彈藥也好策略也好戰略也好"},{"start":542.279,"end":563.899,"text":"他在等你啦是沒錯那我們準備了什麼是我們要主動做什麼是我們提前要佈局什麼坦白說我必須跟報告局長蔡局長也好其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚我們做了什麼提前的佈局我們的都是比較是事後的因應"},{"start":565.04,"end":573.431,"text":"我自己覺得在這報告裡面當然也許蔡局長說也許有一些你們能夠做主動布局的部分因為國安的原因沒有辦法盡然的都呈現出來"},{"start":574.98,"end":602.902,"text":"那要這樣講我也理解可是我還是必須從站在國會的立場來說的話我們還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已這真的不夠從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑從疫情、從這個烏克蘭戰爭我們真的追著謠言跑坦白說真的非常非常的吃力在過去這幾次的經驗裡面我們知道我們的不足"},{"start":604.5,"end":626.736,"text":"我們是知道我們不足所以我們在希望能跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來這部分我簡單說明一下事實上國安局這邊我們有一個專案那老實跟委員做說明我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的一個會議那我們會針對每一個階段重要的新聞的議題我們會先做事先的應處"},{"start":627.637,"end":646.558,"text":"那在判斷的可能那一波的新聞議題的攻防過程當中我們的立論該怎麼樣來處理這都有一些充分的討論討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西我不便公開來說明假如委員有興趣的話我們可以私下跟您報告好"},{"start":647.379,"end":669.744,"text":"這部分當然還是我們是覺得非常非常需要知道因為我想局長知道這裡面可能不是只單靠政府部門你恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色它這是一個總體的動員戰在這個我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰"},{"start":671.924,"end":690.172,"text":"當然我們不會說要去破這個要局長講不能講的事情可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅尤其他資源這麼多尤其他戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（9時30分）請國安局蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，洪委員早。"],["洪委員申翰：局長好。局長，今天謝謝召委排定的這個專報主題，討論的是AI、資安、國安等等議題，今天我當然也比較想要用更全面的角度來跟局長討論，包括我們的資訊戰或認知戰的問題。局長，目前有很多研究素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前就開始在推動所謂媒體融合的全國戰略，包括幾個西方的媒體，像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等都點出，他們的宣傳系統是由共產黨跟國家很多機構、跟民間機構一起來組成的。在這個非常非常綿密的組織之下，某個部分它已經實踐了我們現在說的包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合，最重要的事情是它是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構機制，進可攻、退可守。我其實很清楚知道，現在很多部會都很努力花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠，我自己看了今天各部會提出來的報告內容，這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對，這些都有，但是我想問局長，你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對，比方說以中共目前在主導的，它是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構，然後動用所有它轄下可動用的所有媒體、新舊媒體的宣傳資源，局長你覺得我們靠事後的闢謠能夠應對得了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論，基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息傳散，第一部分當然有個應處的機制去蒐報跟通報，以及回應，這大概是既有的運作機制，那委員……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，這是我說的，這只是事後的闢謠、事後的事實查核。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，委員提到我們自己的國家有沒有一套敘述機制比較主動式因應中共這些可能的國際媒宣操作？針對這部分，事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們其實過去就有經歷了，包括那時候在疫情期間疫苗的狀況，它其實是一整套的敘事布局，包括烏俄戰爭的時候，它也是一整套敘事結構的布局，它有前、有後、有鋪陳、有要你投射引導的東西，所以這絕對不只是錯假訊息的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度，我覺得這也太低估中共了吧！我剛才想問的事情是，局長，我們現在是由哪一個部會、哪一個部門在主導？我們怎麼樣能夠化被動為主動？其實是有一個以臺灣為主體、以臺灣為本位，我們的敘事結構去做資訊的布建，或者是資訊的傳散？我們現在是由哪個部會在主導這些事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們所知道的是行政院的系統確實有這樣的機制跟平臺。"],["洪委員申翰：哪一個單位嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，它是跨部會的。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我自己覺得國安局應該要在這裡面扮演很重要的角色。當然，今天數發部也在現場，可是我認為數發部在這裡面恐怕比較能夠處理的是在數位技術上面處理的問題。可是從國家安全的層次、國家的立場，或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先，要說打預防針也好，因為我們當然不是主動要去攻擊別人的，我們不像中共，可是我們要怎麼站在一個主動性的、戰略性的位置？我認為看了所有單位裡面，我覺得國安局最適合。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。跟委員說明一下，這不是在做一些認知作戰的攻擊，它比較像是一個……"],["洪委員申翰：當然我們都不是說攻擊。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，它比較像是一個主動防禦啦！"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛有提到，在行政院系統，因為各部會有它的業管，所以行政院有一個機制，國安局也有，只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作運作的一個模式，我們比較不適合公開來討論，但我們有這樣的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：我還是想提醒，我希望國安局也好，或我們相關部會也好，當然今天專報的內容很多，可是如果真的只是一直在討論事後的事實查核，我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命，而且效果一定非常非常有限。我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去……當然我要再說明一次，我們不是要去造謠、我們不是要去攻擊誰，但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅，尤其是這個強大的威脅不只資源多過於我們，甚至現在在它內部也是用敘事結構的方式，其實是在塑造整個認知戰！我們看到有幾個國際智庫也都提醒，恐怕必須要用提前破解的方式，prebunk的方式，而不是一直用現在事後事實查核這個debunk的方式來處理這個問題。","數發部次長，今天我也聽了你的報告，包括我們在AI上面的各種應對。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我也是想請教，你覺得現在數發部在工作上面，我自己感覺確實比較多的還是在事後的闢謠跟查核。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我們有沒有可能可以再做在更前面去應對？"],["林次長宜敬：我認為我們要對付錯假訊息的方式，基本上要分成兩方面，一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播，尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播。另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來，如果現在我們臺灣這些優質的媒體統統因為收不到錢、沒有廣告收入，導致他們經營發生困難的時候，那麼所有閱聽民眾就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的假訊息，所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略，白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣，去看一些正規的媒體。就像在國際上我們知道，我們如果看到一個CNN或者是Washington Post，或者是New York Times的新聞，雖然我們知道他們有時候也會發生一些烏龍事件或有些錯誤，但是他們的新聞基本上是比較可靠的，因為他們都會經過嚴格的查證。所以我們在處理AI產生的錯假訊息上面，我們的確有一個很大很大的挑戰，因為臺灣是一個自由民主，而且是法治的國家。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，你講的我都同意。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅，就是生成式AI確實已經被中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為，以提高它投放的精準度。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其這裡面它很善用生成式AI做一種真假混合的方式去欺騙，所以坦白說，我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候，也會遇到其實裡面也許是七成真、三成假，或三成真、七成假，大部分的狀況其實是這樣，它不會給你一個全部都是假的東西。"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：這種情形其實是最難處理的狀況，某個部分其實也是改變了它的宣傳策略，從它過去可能是單一訊息去做大規模轟炸，它現在是搞分眾，然後做精準打擊，然後用生成式AI去做分析，提供這個效果。所以我剛才說它在這一整套的敘事結構裡面，再搭配技術上面的應用，說實話我覺得效果很好，我為什麼今天還是想要在這邊提出這樣一個意見的原因，因為我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際情勢，這段時間很多國家，不管是選舉也好，或者是結果陸陸續續出來，接下來國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高。"],["林次長宜敬：沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：而且當這個不確定性更高的時候，中共在這裡面一定有大量的空間可以去運用它準備好的這些技術也好、彈藥也好、策略也好、戰略也好，它都準備著在等！"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：那我們準備了什麼？我們要主動做什麼？我們提前要布局什麼？坦白說，我必須報告次長、蔡局長也好，其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚，我們做了什麼提前布局？都是比較事後的因應，我自己覺得在這份報告裡面，當然蔡局長也許會說有些能做主動布局的部分，因為國安的原因沒辦法盡然的都呈現出來，要這樣講我也理解，可是我還是必須站在國會的立場來說，還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分，真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已，這真的不夠。從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑，從疫情、從烏克蘭戰爭，我們追著謠言跑，坦白說真的非常、非常、非常的吃力，在過去這幾次的經驗裡面，我們知道我們的不足，我們是知道我們的不足，所以希望跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來，這部分……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我簡單說明一下，事實上國安局這邊有一個專案，老實跟委員做個說明，我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的會議，針對每一個階段重要的新聞議題先做事先的應處，在判斷可能那一波新聞議題的攻防過程當中，我們的立論該怎麼樣來處理，這都有一些充分的討論，討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去，但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西，我不便公開來說明，假如委員有興趣的話，我們可以私下跟您報告。"],["洪委員申翰：好，這部分當然還是覺得非常、非常需要知道，因為我想局長知道，這裡面可能不只是單靠政府部門，您恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源，甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色，這是一個總體的動員戰，我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說，它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰。當然我們不會要去說破局長講不能講的事情，可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅，尤其他資源這麼多，他的戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下，還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極，好不好？謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：好、好，會，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，局長請回。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 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289.814,"text":"他基本上稅比圈外的要低嘛所以我們台灣假設為什麼會有那麼多台商過去得跑去中國得跑去東南亞就我如果要做東南亞生意我在越南製造我在印尼製造我在這個圈子裡面的關稅是很低的但是我如果是台灣製造我要賣過去我的關稅比人家高啊所以我們自己要想說那我們如果營造這樣的環境"},{"start":291.83,"end":311.98,"text":"所以現在的觀念是要注意是民主供應鏈重整那在這個供應鏈重整的過程中臺灣會有一些機會那當然也會有一些風險那我舉一個我們這個機會裡面我們已經在做而且急需要爭取的就是這個避免臺美之間的雙重剋稅的這個推動"},{"start":315.063,"end":329.168,"text":"因為現在川普也要製造製造也要重回美國他也歡迎全世界其他國家的資金到美國投資啊那以這個為理由我們臺灣的資金到美國投資結果你美國要給我剋稅我臺灣自己也要剋稅那是雙重剋稅美國的財政部在10月29號有發布說雙方的財政部將於近期之內"},{"start":339.471,"end":349.433,"text":"要對於臺美租稅協定相關的展開討論11月29到現在也半個多月了他說馬上就要開始進行了嗎"},{"start":352.883,"end":356.825,"text":"根委員報告這個部分已經我們雙方都已經在聯繫然後敲日期也會會如期的舉行會進行討論對因為這個政策的轉變剛好是給我們一個機會如果他要吸引臺灣的資金到美國去投資的話讓美國的製造業重新站穩腳跟的話他當然希望我們臺灣當然希望說我們不要有這個雙重出稅的這個"},{"start":378.095,"end":378.896,"text":"在這件事情上我們對於世界在改變"},{"start":397.483,"end":397.923,"text":"臺灣的這個晶片這一些的貿易"},{"start":427.526,"end":451.224,"text":"就是很重要的地方就是注意不能被中國變成用第三者來購買或是被他作為貿易轉口變成被他洗產地如果有這兩個狀況的話臺灣可能都會遭到美國很重大的打擊喔因為這個是未來川普政府會非常嚴肅認真面對的事情這個不知道你同不同意喔"},{"start":452.486,"end":470.316,"text":"委員說得很適當外界的情勢變化的時候我們也應該要順勢推出相關的一些政策比如說川普在第一任的時候他的相關的關稅政策以及供應鏈的重組的一個變化所以台灣就順勢推出了投資台灣三大方案所以廠商在台擴大投資"},{"start":471.636,"end":495.807,"text":"然後再加上COVID的時候我們的一些遠距的一個商機興起以及AI的新興應用的科技所以整個讓我們的經濟事實上比亞洲其他國家成長來得好也就是我們那個契機推出了這個方案那當然委員剛剛提到他新上任以後的關稅政策財政政策甚至移民政策等等的一個變化我們臺灣要怎麼樣的因應包括您提說的低價免稅這個要不要檢討討論的事這一點"},{"start":498.408,"end":499.329,"text":"提出有民意代表是這樣主張的因為美國要針對這一塊啊這個中國對美國的這個低價的這一個電商的包裹"},{"start":518.9,"end":542.412,"text":"從1億4千萬增加到10億欸10億份所以美國現在財政部美國的海關也在針對這個東西在提出檢討當然每一個國家的免稅額度不一樣但是我們不能讓台灣的製造業就輸在起跑點上是的那謝謝你願意參考我有一個小問題要請這個國有財產署的曾署長回答"},{"start":551.669,"end":552.552,"text":"委員好 署長一個小問題啦 是這個明"},{"start":555.259,"end":582.297,"text":"今年度就去年省今年的預算嘛是那時候的稅入113年稅入您的編列是247億是那明年度變成202億短少了45億什麼原因啊報告委員大家也知道因為現在政府在推動社會住宅那國產署已經提供了86公頃而且還準備了134公頃的土地要作為社會住宅"},{"start":583.017,"end":608.909,"text":"以往這些土地我們都是拿來作為招標設定地上錢或標租但是以社會住宅優先的情況之下我必須要犧牲這些稅入的來源是好那這樣了解那雖然是少了因為我看那個比例相當大所以來跟您請教那如果是這樣的政策我們支持了是尤其在土地售價收入的部分我們會減了很多好謝謝你那加油好謝謝"},{"start":610.43,"end":611.472,"text":"好謝謝吳秉瑞來繼續來賴世保賴委員來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":226,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時26分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，11月5號美國舉行總統大選，現在確定是川普當選，川普是共和黨的總統，他除了當選總統之外，共和黨在參眾兩院應該也都取得多數啦。所以這一次的選舉，就以西方的媒體來講，他們說向右轉是相當明顯的，就是說，以前極端左派的這些政策，可能都會受到一些大幅的修正，包括能源政策，像川普在選舉的時候就公開講說，要讓美國的能源可以再開採，不然美國就把頁岩油跟天然氣的開採都停掉了，所以世界大多數都是預測這樣子做油價會下跌。另外一點就是他也急著要結束地緣衝突，所以地緣衝突降低或是停止的可能性都是有的。這一些當然是一些外部的環境，但是他的政策裡面，其實很重要的一部分就是供應鏈的重組，因為他要把製造業再拉回美國，所以他不是只有對臺灣，基本上對全世界他都是要加關稅10%到20%，當然這個10%到20%最主要的目的就是要讓製造業重回美國去生產，增加美國的就業機會，這一點不知道您的看法怎麼樣？這一點是不是我們臺灣可以學習的借鏡？因為在小英總統上臺的2016年開始，我們就推動回臺投資計畫，其實某一個角度來講，也是要讓製造業重回臺灣，但是要讓製造業重回臺灣，你要讓臺灣有這樣子的環境跟基礎，所以當時才會說水、電、土地、人才等等這些問題統統都要解決。這也是上一次我跟您請教的，我們的政策如果要一致的時候，是不是要考慮這些電商，低質劣等的商品2,000元以下免關稅，甚至免其他的稅金，源源不斷的大量進來？那一天我記得我說一年是5,500萬件，那5,500萬件裡面的四千多萬件，也就是八成是2,000塊以下，就是有四千多萬件的商品對臺灣的製造業不公平啦！因為臺灣的製造業在這邊製造，他要課貨物稅，他要課營業稅，還要繳交一大堆的稅金，這一些免稅進來臺灣的，反而它的條件比在臺灣做製造業還要優惠，這個樣子怎麼妥當呢？這個當然不是說馬上要改變，因為理由一大堆，說什麼我們是跟著國際走，但全球化現在已經在改變了，我們的觀念要先改變，現在是世界供應鏈重組，是民主供應鏈，川普要排除這些流氓國家的製造業在世界上跟他貿易，所以他對中國要課60%的關稅，所有的學者都講，課60%的關稅其實就是停止跟你交易，否則你怎麼受得了，你的東西沒有競爭力啊！","我覺得從這個角度來看，臺灣過去因為被中國打壓，所以很多國際之間、區域的貿易組織我們是沒有辦法參加的，東南亞的RCEP我們也沒辦法參加，但是這些區域組織裡面的國家之間的國際貿易，它基本上稅比圈外的要低，所以過去臺灣為什麼會有那麼多臺商得跑去中國、得跑去東南亞，就是我如果要做東南亞的生意，我在越南製造、在印尼製造，我在這個圈子裡面的關稅是很低的，但我如果是臺灣製造，我要賣過去，我的關稅比人家高啊！所以我們自己要想：我們如何營造這樣的環境？","所以現在的觀念是要注意民主供應鏈重整，在這個供應鏈重整的過程中，臺灣會有一些機會，當然也會有一些風險。我舉一個在這個機會裡面我們已經在做而且亟需要爭取的，就是避免臺美之間雙重課稅的推動，因為現在川普也要製造業重回美國，他也歡迎全世界其他國家的資金到美國投資啊！以這個為理由，我們臺灣的資金到美國投資，結果你美國要給我課稅，我們臺灣自己也要課稅，那就是雙重課稅！美國財政部10月29日有發布，雙方財政部將於近期之內對臺美租稅協定相關議題展開討論。10月29日到現在也半個多月了，他說馬上就要進行，請問開始進行了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個部分我們雙方都已經在聯繫、敲日期，也會如期進行討論。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，因為這個政策的轉變剛好是給我們一個機會，如果他們要吸引臺灣的資金到美國去投資，讓美國的製造業重新站穩腳跟的話，臺灣當然希望不要有雙重租稅的課徵，不然去投資的誘因就會降低很多啊，這一點我們也要讓美國的財政部清楚。我想他們也是清楚的啦，所以他們自己也很急切地說要趕快來談。所以我是覺得，在這件事情上，對於世界在改變、潮流在改變，我們有一些想法也要改變。張忠謀先生所謂的「全球化已死」其實不是指整個國際貿易死掉的意思，而是供應鏈要重組，供應鏈重組的時候，站「隊（對）」就很重要，就是看要站在哪一隊，另外一個是站對邊也很重要，所以如果民主供應鏈重組，對臺灣這些晶片貿易而言，很重要的地方就是要注意不能被中國變成用第三者來購買，或是被他做為貿易轉口，變成被他洗產地，如果有這兩個狀況的話，臺灣可能都會遭到美國很重大的打擊喔！因為這個是未來川普政府會非常嚴肅、認真面對的事情，這個不知道你同不同意？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員說的很是，當外界情勢變化的時候，我們也應該順勢推出一些相關的政策，比如說川普在第一任的時候，相關的關稅政策以及供應鏈重組有所變化，臺灣就順勢推出了「投資臺灣三大方案」，所以廠商在臺擴大投資，然後再加上COVID的時候，我們的遠距商機以及AI的新興應用科技興起，整個讓我們的經濟事實上比亞洲其他國家的成長來得好，也就是我們在那個契機推出了這個方案。當然，委員剛剛提到，他新上任以後的關稅政策、財政政策甚至移民政策等等的變化，我們臺灣要怎麼樣因應，包含您說的低價免稅要不要檢討……"],["吳委員秉叡：這一點當然是我的建議、我的看法，但是如果我這個看法值得參考的話，我希望你在行政院內部會議溝通的時候，提出有民意代表是這樣主張的，因為美國也會針對這一塊啊！中國對美國電商的低價包裹從1億4,000萬份增加到10億份，所以美國財政部、美國海關也在針對這個東西提出檢討。當然，每一個國家的免稅額度不一樣，但是我們不能讓臺灣的製造業就輸在起跑點上！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝你願意參考。","我有一個小問題要請國有財產署的曾署長回答。"],["曾署長國基：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：署長，我有一個小問題，去年審今年的預算，113年度歲入預算你們編列的是247億……"],["曾署長國基：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：明年度變成202億，短少了45億，是什麼原因？"],["曾署長國基：報告委員，大家也都知道，因為現在政府在推動社會住宅，國產署已經提供了86公頃，而且還準備了134公頃的土地要做為社會住宅，以往這些土地我們都是拿來做為招標設定地上權或標租，但是在以社會住宅為優先的情況之下，我們必須要犧牲這些歲入的來源。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，瞭解。因為我看那個短少的比例相當大，所以來跟你請教。如果是這樣的政策，我們支持啦！"],["曾署長國基：是，尤其在土地售價收入的部分，我們會減很多。謝謝委員的支持。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝你，要加油。好，謝謝。"],["曾署長國基：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員。繼續是賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"156983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e8747b2200f32ebbfdf06883678c1ed2d0da02439e76c79bdf6e3cda55e1e93cba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:14:18 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謝謝主席 呃 莊部長 是不是請財政部莊部長來 請財政部的莊部長 請"},{"start":10.919,"end":36.977,"text":"委員長部長你好我請教因為內政部長劉世芳在內政委員會答詢時說新清安編列財源來自住宅基金而新清安政策是影響移轉動數重大的因素可能影響房價的升高劉部長表示要尊重主責的財政部"},{"start":37.637,"end":58.715,"text":"那中央銀行的抗瓦內政部配合政策編列預算那我請問部長在新青安整個政策中財政部負責哪些區塊的業務跟委員報告有關新青安的推動事實上是主要是我們由八家公股行庫來主辦"},{"start":59.977,"end":76.856,"text":"那因應這個因應這個央行升息為了減輕首購族的一個房屋的貸款的一個負擔所以我們的公股行庫是自行吸收半碼是由我們行庫自行吸收那後來央行又在升息以後就由住宅基金"},{"start":79.164,"end":105.423,"text":"來補貼這個升息的部分大概有一碼半的一個利息支出所以是這個部分是由住宅基金支出那另外有半碼是由公股行庫自行吸收這主要是這樣的一個情況那另外新金安這個清安貸款事實上從99年的時候就是由財政部來規劃以後推出的那在112年的8月的時候因為配合整個因為房價的一個調整以及協助"},{"start":105.863,"end":112.553,"text":"沒有房屋的需要的自住的一個購屋需要所以推出了新清安主要是那我請問部長這些區塊業務的執行督導又分別是財政部的哪些單位或這個機關來負責"},{"start":122.373,"end":138.06,"text":"這個業務主要是因為是供股行庫所以在部內是由國庫署來做導導那實際執行是在供股行庫那供股行庫在對於有關規範這個貸款的時候他必須按照央行還有金管會的相關所以及銀行公會的所有的規範來做核貸"},{"start":139.881,"end":163.975,"text":"部長對於外界質疑新清安政策的買賣移轉動數直接推升房價那我請問部長你認為新清安貸款是不是房價居高不下的元兇是嗎房價變動或升上漲其實因素很多當然因為新清安的推出讓那個沒有房屋的他想要買房子的一個"},{"start":164.602,"end":170.344,"text":"11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、11月2、"},{"start":192.453,"end":210.534,"text":"還有料整個上漲才推升它上漲的主要我說不是主要就是說因素很多因素包含這個預期心理包含原物料獲得工資等等它的成本上漲還有資金成本因素很多不是只有一個單一的因素"},{"start":210.814,"end":234.177,"text":"那你認為政府有沒有必要我們針對這些來調整一些政策重新檢討新清安那個新清安整個貸款額度利息補貼以及補貼時程以便儘速讓過熱的房市冷卻下來你認為有沒有必要新清安推出以後第一個我們已經又在做了進一步的調整也就是在我們"},{"start":235.078,"end":258.949,"text":"限於只貸一次應該是從9月吧9月開始就只限貸一次也就6月27日開始限貸一次也就是說你用了一次以後就不能再用你要珍惜使用這個新清安就是這個部分那另外呢也請公股航庫能夠加強的貸錢的審核強化貸錢審核以及貸後的管理第二個就新清安是幫助沒有自有住宅的人去買"},{"start":259.529,"end":289.032,"text":"但是不能讓他買了以後就是想要去做投機投資所以只能限一次而且對於出租或用人頭戶加強檢核加強檢核那個部長是央行祭出第7波的選擇性信用管制出重拳來抑制房市的熱度那行政院卓院長表示此項政策不是打房而是打炒房要維護一般民眾居住所需的最基本條件希望對房市有正面的發展"},{"start":289.693,"end":307.795,"text":"那部長第一波推出之後持續不斷至今已經到了第7波那我請問部長對於幾波下來的選擇性信用管制政策在回歸合理房價的效果上到底是民眾是有感還是無感呢?"},{"start":309.257,"end":321.732,"text":"央行的一波一波推出有關所謂選擇性信用管制他也是看市場的一個整個情況來做事實的一個推出那第7波信用管制事實上把適用的範圍擴及到全國"},{"start":323.53,"end":323.55,"text":"部長﹖"},{"start":347.316,"end":368.174,"text":"央行第7波管制措施媒體轉述對房產相關業者衝擊很大甚至於憂心恐怕殃及無辜所以央行提出一些排出性的條款那我請問部長第7波力道加大的信用管制措施你認為會不會有引發房貸市場斷頭潮的這些疑慮"},{"start":373.539,"end":386.837,"text":"會不會?對於央行第7波管制以後那個對於有些怕央級無辜央行也做了部分比如說繼承取得的或換屋的等等做了有一些比較例外性的一些規定而且給一些緩衝期間"},{"start":388.274,"end":403.792,"text":"那至於所謂的斷頭的話那我想這個成構者自己就是說對於做槓桿的部分他有點過度了才會有產生斷頭部長對於財政部所屬的公股航庫房貸業務的推動會不會打折扣啊"},{"start":405.255,"end":419.129,"text":"防貸業務其實第一個有銀行法72條之二的一個上限的規定那我們各個公股、航庫都必須要遵守除了這個30%這個限額之外呢他們自己也有一條警戒線是低於30%大概在28.5之間"},{"start":421.711,"end":421.731,"text":"部長"},{"start":451.448,"end":480.647,"text":"央行的楊總裁表示實施第7波選擇性的信用管制措施主要是看到房價一直上漲在之前央行也對國營總量管制進行道德勸說剛剛陳如剛剛部長所提的銀行法第72條之2規範銀行所承作的土建農以及房貸業務總換款量不得超過存款"},{"start":481.668,"end":507.114,"text":"和金融債券總額的百分之三十但八家公股行庫就有五家不動產換款的比例超過百分之二十八那我請問部長你認為公股行庫是不是黃價上漲推手之一?這樣子央郎之所以會有所謂道德勸說等等就是第一個是要穩定金融市場"},{"start":507.794,"end":511.756,"text":"也就是說避免銀行的信用的資金過度的流向流向不動產那排擠到其他產業的需要所以希望各行庫要特別注意這一點那各個行庫呢因為央行的道德勸說以及院長也提出來應該要做這個額度的控管也就是說對於需要的應該要優先帶給他比如說收購組織要優先帶給他"},{"start":532.284,"end":557.515,"text":"那避免集中到過度集中在那個大額的一個承貸戶（但是本席認為說公股房顧負責政策目的又要經營獲利那我請問部長政府既是裁判又兼求援的身分難道不應該對政策執行所產生的一些瑕疵負責嗎?你認為呢?我想政策是因應時勢來做一些"},{"start":558.175,"end":583.6,"text":"推出那當然也要因應時事來做一些調整或精進這都是需要的是部長財政部所屬公股行庫以經營不動場這個貸換獲利那金融業的這個營業稅稅收啊也歸財政部來課徵那我請問部長央行楊總裁有沒有對財政部進行道德勸說你認為有沒有"},{"start":585.885,"end":593.225,"text":"他對財政部不是用我們彼此之間都是政府團隊的議員大家彼此都應該要合作"},{"start":594.266,"end":619.427,"text":"所以說在這個整個管制政策執行和公股行庫獲利以稅收考量下部長你認為能夠找得到平衡點嗎當然公股行庫不管做在金融業務上面都必須要遵守央行金管會以及銀行公會所有的規範這是一定要做的部長114年度稅客收入編列2.77兆元創歷史的新高"},{"start":622.469,"end":650.977,"text":"而且比113年度預算成長19.88%那我請問部長明年稅客收入的預算數字是不是一定能夠反映在明年整個經濟成長稅率上面成長率上面我們在編稅客收入的時候是有各種因素在討論那經濟成長是其中的一個參考因子當然還有其他稅制的調整以及各個稅務它的一個特性來做編列的"},{"start":652.253,"end":666.901,"text":"換句話說若實在經濟成長上是不是代表明年景氣應該比今年會更好其實是財政部有沒有預估過明年第一季到第四季的整個景氣狀況"},{"start":669.763,"end":686.498,"text":"根據主計總署的一個預算的推估明年的經濟成長率是3.26%這個是我們要參考的一數那至於明年的一個經濟我想委員你也很清楚國際政經情勢的變化是很快所以"},{"start":687.029,"end":687.129,"text":"請吳秉瑞委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":173,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時14分）謝謝主席。是不是請財政部莊部長？"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["林委員德福：部長你好。內政部長劉世芳在內政委員會答詢時說，新青安編列財源來自住宅基金，而新青安政策是影響移轉棟數的重大因素，可能影響房價的升高。劉部長表示，尊重主責的財政部；中央銀行的看法則為，內政部是配合政策編列預算。請問部長，在新青安政策中，財政部負責哪些區塊業務？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關新青安的推動，主要是由八家公股行庫主辦，為因應央行升息，減輕首購族的房屋貸款負擔，所以公股行庫自行吸收半碼，由我們行庫自行吸收。至於央行又再升息以後，就由住宅基金補貼升息的部分，大概有一碼半的利息支出，所以這部分是由住宅基金支出，另外有半碼由公股行庫自行吸收，主要是這樣的情況。青安貸款係自99年由財政部規劃推出，在112年8月因配合房價的調整，以及協助沒有房屋者的購屋自住需要，故推出了新青安，主要是這樣子。"],["林委員德福：我請問部長，這些區塊業務的執行督導分別是財政部的哪些單位或機關來負責？"],["莊部長翠雲：該業務主要是公股行庫負責，所以部內是由國庫署督導……"],["林委員德福：國庫署？"],["莊部長翠雲：實際執行是在公股行庫。公股行庫對於貸款的有關規範，必須按照央行、金管會及銀行公會的所有規範來做核貸。"],["林委員德福：外界質疑新青安政策的買賣移轉棟數直接推升房價，所以我請問部長，你認為新青安貸款是不是房價居高不下的元兇？是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：房價變動或上漲的因素其實很多，當然，新青安的推出讓無房但想買房的朋友們可以有機會來購買，我覺得這點很好，但是……"],["林委員德福：所以你認為不是，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，不是主要因素，因為各種因素有很多，譬如說……"],["林委員德福：你認為有哪些因素推高房價？"],["莊部長翠雲：譬如原物料的上漲，我們知道原物料上漲或工資上漲，還有對房價的預期心理等等因素，還有公共建設的到位，會有民眾認為在這個地方買……"],["林委員德福：所以說是因為……"],["莊部長翠雲：是有諸多因素的。"],["林委員德福：工資、原物料整個上漲，才是推升房價上漲的主要……"],["莊部長翠雲：我是說因素很多，而因素包含預期心理，包含原物料或工資導致成本上漲，還有資金成本，因素很多，不是只有單一一個因素。"],["林委員德福：你認為政府有沒有必要針對這些來調整政策，重新檢討有關新青安的貸款額度、利息補貼以及補貼時程，以便儘速讓過熱的房市冷卻下來，有沒有必要？"],["莊部長翠雲：新青安推出以後，第一，我們又再做了進一步的調整，也就是限於只貸一次，應該是從6月27日開始限貸一次。換句話說，用了一次以後就不能再用，所以要珍惜使用新青安。另外，也請公股行庫加強貸前的審核，即強化貸前審核及貸後管理。第二，新青安是幫助沒有自有住宅的人去買……"],["林委員德福：我知道啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：但不能買了以後就想投機、投資，所以只能限一次，而且對於出租或用人頭戶者加強檢核。"],["林委員德福：部長，央行祭出第七波的選擇性信用管制，出重拳來抑制房市熱度。行政院卓院長表示，此項政策不是打房而是打炒房，要維護一般民眾居住所需的最基本條件，希望房市能有正面發展。但從第一波推出之後持續不斷，至今已經到了第七波，所以我請問部長，對於幾波下來的選擇性信用管制政策，在回歸合理房價的效果上，依你看民眾到底是有感還是無感？"],["莊部長翠雲：央行一波一波推出選擇性信用管制，也是看市場的情況做適時推出。第七波信用管制事實上是把適用範圍擴及到全國，同時也擴大適用對象，所以我想央行在這部分是看市場的情況做滾動檢討，我相信這部分對於要炒作……因為房子是拿來使用、拿來居住的，而不是拿來作為炒作的工具，所以這部分必須要給予抑制。"],["林委員德福：部長，央行第七波的管制措施，媒體轉述對房產相關業者衝擊很大，甚至於憂心這恐怕會殃及無辜，所以央行提出一些排除性的條款，那我請問部長，第七波力道加大的信用管制措施，你認為會不會引發房貸市場斷頭潮的這些疑慮？會不會？"],["莊部長翠雲：央行在第七波管制以後，因為怕殃及無辜，央行也做了部分調整，比如說繼承取得的或換屋的等等，做了一些比較例外性的規定，而且給予一些緩衝期間。至於所謂斷頭的話，我想承購者自己對於槓桿操作的部分，應該是有點過度的才會產生斷頭。"],["林委員德福：部長，對於財政部所屬公股行庫房貸業務的推動，會不會打折扣？"],["莊部長翠雲：房貸業務，第一個有銀行法第七十二條之二上限的規定，我們各個公股行庫都必須要遵守，除了30%的限額之外，他們自己也有一條警戒線是低於30%，大概在28.5%之間。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，只要觸及這個警戒線，他們就會去注意。另外，這一次院長也特別提示，應該對於首購族作為住宅使用的必須要優先辦理，避免過度集中在某一些大的貸款戶，這個部分都必須要做一些額度上的調控，讓需要買自住使用的貸款人，可以貸得到金額，這個是我們公股行庫要遵守去做的。"],["林委員德福：部長，央行的楊總裁表示，實施第七波選擇性的信用管制措施，主要是看到房價一直上漲，之前央行也對國銀總量管制進行道德勸說，誠如剛剛部長所提的銀行法第七十二條之二，規範銀行所承作的土建融以及房貸業務總放款量，不得超過存款和金融債券總額的30%。"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是。"],["林委員德福：但8家公股行庫就有5家不動產放款的比例超過28%，請問部長，你認為公股行庫是不是房價上漲的推手之一？是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：央行之所以會有所謂道德勸說等等，第一個是要穩定金融市場，也就是說，避免銀行的信用資金過度的流向不動產，排擠到其他產業的需要，所以希望各行庫要特別注意這一點。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：各行庫因為央行的道德勸說，以及院長也提出來應該要做額度的控管，也就是說，對於需要的，應該要優先貸給他，比如說首購族就要優先貸給他，避免過度集中在大額的承貸戶上面。"],["林委員德福：對，但是本席認為公股行庫負責政策目的又要經營獲利，那我請問部長，政府既是裁判又兼球員的身分，難道不應該對政策執行所產生的一些瑕疵負責嗎？你認為呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想政策是因應時勢來做一些推出，當然也要因應時勢來做一些調整或精進，這都是需要的。"],["林委員德福：部長，財政部所屬公股行庫以經營不動產貸放獲利，金融業的營業稅稅收也歸財政部來課徵，那我請問部長，央行楊總裁有沒有對財政部進行道德勸說？你認為有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：他對財政部不是用……我們彼此之間都是政府團隊的一員，大家彼此都應該要合作啊。"],["林委員德福：所以在整個管制政策執行和公股行庫獲利與稅收考量下，部長，你認為能夠找得到平衡點嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，公股行庫不管做什麼，在金融業務上面都必須要遵守央行、金管會以及銀行公會所有的規範，這是一定要做的。"],["林委員德福：部長，114年度稅課收入編列2.77兆元，創歷史的新高，而且比113年度預算成長19.88%，那我請問部長，明年稅課收入的預算數字是不是一定能夠反映在明年整個經濟成長率上面？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們在編稅課收入的時候，是有各種因素在討論，經濟成長是其中的一個參考因子，當然還有其他稅制的調整，以及各個稅目的特性來做編列的。"],["林委員德福：換句話說，落實在經濟成長上，是不是代表明年景氣應該比今年會更好？其次，財政部有沒有預估過明年第一季到第四季的整個景氣狀況？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：根據主計總處的推估，明年的經濟成長率是3.26%，這個是我們要參考的因素。至於明年的經濟，我想委員您也很清楚，國際政經情勢的變化是很快的，所以比如說主總也會按季調整它對相關經濟成長的展望跟預估數，這都是會做滾動性調整的。"],["林委員德福：好，因為我時間到了，其他問題我下次再問，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員的質詢。","下一位請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},{"id":"156982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e873b3faab7d7bc0ecfdc7cef15d9be6ba6a02439e76c79bdf6420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:24:33 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產業競爭力提升我國豬隻跟豬隻產品競爭力開啟國際市場的新契機為當務之急本席要講的是在今天講到國際合作如果我們台灣的種族只要導入AI而且用AI來做基因定序來存化品種它一定有一個特色耐思、耐熱"},{"start":606.064,"end":606.084,"text":"發言員："},{"start":625.408,"end":631.25,"text":"主席不好意思再給我一分鐘了那我就再批評一下農業部好了請你們看PIG333全世界的這個這個國際豬連國外都把我們的豬分析出來我們豬為什麼貴我們的飼料成本貴所以我們美國你看這是全世界成本每公斤豬肉成本生產最高的是台灣去看看這個期刊"},{"start":653.297,"end":663.343,"text":"好那產業政策沒有就算了本席主張由國營事業台塘開始展開我國的豬隻經營地序藉由國營事業的競爭力提升刺激整體豬隻的續產第二個比照台塘東海豐東海豐你們只做什麼你們做人員政策不是做產業政策你們用了這個早期他的人他的豬的"},{"start":676.812,"end":686.566,"text":"排泄物來做早期發電這叫做能源政策不是農業政策所以呢部長您這個可不可以針對本席的建議一個月內提供給本席"},{"start":687.662,"end":712.539,"text":"我想有關於數位預總的部分我們會在一個月提供但是國營事業台當是經濟部所屬不是農業部所管我們會跟他我們一起來協助他們的不連花了6個多億哪一個農業民間可以花了6個多億來處理那個水聯的問題所以部長太落伍了請你支持我們的卓院長的AI內閣好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":103,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時24分）好，有請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，您的結語說：農業部將持續精進各項農業政策作為，以多元輔導協助產業升級並提升競爭力，落實智慧韌性，永續安心的農業。你現在真的有照這樣做嗎？沒有。我們來看新聞就好，隨便爬梳，關心農業，高麗菜生產紫爆了，又在循環了，臺灣農業生產的悲慘循環又開始了，年復一年，宣示著冬季菜土菜金的新循環開始，每年固定的故事。本席年復一年的提醒，做了7屆的立委，24年的服務，每一年都在講，這幾年、從上一屆的立委，這四年多來我一直在講智慧農業，從農業部開始就要智慧管理。有啦，你們現在有做啦，在陳吉仲時代有做了一個平臺，離智慧化的管理還差得遠啦！本席也一直倡議，如何解決菜土菜金，所有產銷資訊，能夠從部本部、從拍賣市場、從各縣市政府跟農漁會及各合作社整合在一塊，你願不願支持？第一步，硬體建設要不要改進？你們也不要，所以你這個部長，我都不曉得你在做什麼，任何一個人去做這個部長，下面的一個基層文官都可以做得很好，他就照著既有的政策去執行就好。","現在、此時此刻，卓院長很明確的跟各界講，我們要AI、我們要智慧化，現在所有的各產業，我們看經濟部就好，在製造業、服務業，所有各部會，只有農業部沒有做兩件事情，第一個，智慧AI導入。智慧化已經是一個概念，如何在算力的導入當中提升我們的生產良率，提升我們的品質；第二個，節能減碳。就在做這兩件事情而已，農業部有做嗎？沒有，導致12月到2月的高麗菜紫爆，今年3月到5月香蕉過剩，整年度的雞蛋生產過剩，只要颱風，香菜就動輒每斤就六、七百塊。你一定會說這個是颱風，我們政府、農業部的政策就是要避險，也許在那個……不是也許，是一定，既然遇到這樣的情形香菜就會大漲，雖然它很小量，可是遇到颱風就會發生，那你可不可以用溫室？你要分流啊！溫室的種植啊！","另外，「班班有石斑」，這是為了因應什麼？難道你們真的有這個前瞻性嗎？是因為中國禁止進口我們的石斑。「班班有鮮奶」，難道是因為你們真的要保護國內的酪農嗎？是因為我們面對了紐西蘭的鮮奶免關稅，到現在還是用保久乳在替代！最好笑的是，你們現在說不勉強、不勉強各個學校去做班班有鮮奶，因為酪農本身的量體不夠，你也必須用替代的保久乳。所以這在在顯示我們農業政策缺乏產業戰略規劃，你們都只有應急的頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，根本不想導入AI。現在連國防部，他們是多麼精進在科技國防，全部的部會，就只有農業部最落伍。","我們來看走過口蹄疫之後的疫情管制。關於口蹄疫，去年拔針一定要一年，現在我們有市場，本席認為，如果養豬業要真的有國家隊，在國際市場上能夠再現風華，AI基因定序的基因農業，兩件事情，基因定序是一件事情，用AI來匹配基因定序又是一個技術，這應該導入我們的養豬業。好，我們來看美國、丹麥、英國的例子，美國每頭豬的養殖過程能夠降7.7%的碳排；丹麥每頭豬的生產效益可以增加30%，減碳26%；英國是每頭豬增加35%的遺傳增進率，減碳10%，這不是講養豬的環境，這部分等一下我後面會講。","在養豬本身，英國說2050年要減碳80%，這當中的技術在哪裡？為什麼它能夠增加豬的生產效率？為什麼它能夠做到豬本身生產的減碳？它做到了飼料換肉率的提高；做到了食性好的種源；在品種的挑選上，做到了體型佳種源的篩選，所以才能夠達成縮短飼育週期的目標，養的期間短，而且每個飼料都可以高單位的吸收，能夠吃少而且養肉快，這樣的品種又愛吃，食慾又很好，當然牠長肉就會快，所以本席認為，今天我們的養豬國家隊如果真的要立足臺灣、放眼全球，再次的拓展國際市場，全基因體AI育種，整個全部的基因定序，然後我們的AI育種才有可能永續增值、重返光榮，這才會達成我們的糧食安全、環境永續、整體健康，我講的整體健康是豬健康、人健康及環境健康。","再來，這是一件多麼美好的事情，但這是民間自主來做，就是臺灣特色農業的榮耀，找回美味的種源。黑豬肉是臺灣人的味、是臺灣人的飲食印象，但是基因不純使得臺灣市場上的黑豬存在三個問題，第一個，外表性狀差異大；第二個，生長效率不一；第三個，品質規格不易控管，所以我們當然很難走向高品質的國際市場，這家民間公司透過基因定序的技術，找回了臺灣原生種黑豬的DNA種源，成為我們初始的目標。","牠就命名為平埔黑豬，這是由春發成畜牧場與臺大動科系、畜產試驗所，在此要給我們畜產試驗所獎勵一下，然後還有屏科大等多個教育、政府單位共同合作，經過15年成功選育出的品種，這是臺灣首個民間自行育種，而且是基因定序育種並取得品種認證，這個很重要，而且讓人很驕傲，我們有自己的品種權，像台糖今年10月花了4個億，進口了1,000頭豬，種源全部都是進口的，難道臺灣沒有辦法自己產生嗎？當然有，我們民間做出來了！","這樣的豬種有什麼好處？牠能夠適應臺灣亞熱帶氣候，且肉質與伊比利豬不相上下，伊比利豬是世界最好的豬，算是數一數二的。再來，其嫩度、甜度優於市售白豬，包含進口豬的部分。","接著看國產豬的過去跟現在，過去1997年口蹄疫爆發之前，我國出口日本20萬公噸以上的豬肉。主席，不好意思，讓本席再多一些時間來闡述。"],["主席：1分鐘，好不好？"],["林委員岱樺：好，1分鐘，謝謝。就農業部過去的養豬效益，1996年我們豬價每公斤58元，當時出口日本每公斤豬肉是152元；2021年我們不能出口，但是我們每公斤價格提升到76.7元，就在這個時候，各國輸入日本的價格並不高於每公斤150塊；臺灣在今年7月1號解除臺灣口蹄疫疫區限制，但臺灣豬肉的優勢已經不再了，當我的豬價從1996年每公斤58元提升到2021年的每公斤76.7元，但是進口日本的價格有沒有變？沒變！那你說我們怎麼可能有競爭力？","走過口蹄疫之後，我們如何強化養豬的產業競爭力？提升我國豬隻跟豬肉產品競爭力，開啟國際合作新契機為當務之急。本席要講的是，今天講到國際合作，如果我們臺灣種豬能夠導入AI，而且用AI來做基因定序、純化品種，它一定有一個特色，耐濕、耐熱，我們是亞熱帶，當然豬有個特性，冬天很難生長，但我們卻有辦法在亞熱帶養並出口到熱帶國家，像泰國、柬埔寨、越南……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林委員岱樺：主席，不好意思，再給我1分鐘。"],["主席：林委員，這個不能再延長，因為有3位委員在等。"],["林委員岱樺：好，我就再批評一下農業部好了，請你們看一下pig333，連國外都把我們的豬給分析出來，即我們的豬價為什麼貴？我們的飼料成本貴……"],["主席：林委員，發言時間到了。"],["林委員岱樺：你看這是全世界的成本，每公斤豬肉生產成本最高的就是臺灣！請去看看這個期刊。","好，產業政策沒有就算了。本席主張，第一個，由國營事業台糖開始，展開我國的豬隻基因定序，藉由國營事業的競爭力提升，刺激整體豬隻畜產產業升級。第二個，比照台糖東海豐計畫，東海豐你們只做什麼？你們只做能源政策，不是做產業政策……"],["主席：林委員，時間超出很多了。"],["林委員岱樺：他們用豬的排泄物來做沼氣發電，這叫做能源政策，不是農業政策，所以部長，針對本席的建議，是不是1個月內提供本席相關資料？"],["陳部長駿季：有關於數位育種的部分，我們會在1個月內提供，但是國營事業台糖是經濟部所管，不是農業部所管……"],["林委員岱樺：你們要協調啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會一起來協助。"],["林委員岱樺：他們那個花了六個多億，哪一個民間農業可以花六個多億來處理那個水簾的問題？所以部長太落伍了，請你支持我們卓院長的AI內閣。"],["主席：好，謝謝，官員請回座。","請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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{"start":93.462,"end":109.981,"text":"在這個生成這個AI生成式的這個AI現在被廣泛地用在這種這個資安威脅當中那我們除了這個自動生成惡意程式之外因為我看到了各部會的報告裡面有特別有提到那像這個它可以自動生成"},{"start":110.401,"end":110.481,"text":"主席"},{"start":126.77,"end":143.383,"text":"那我們目前是將這個零信任架構的這個防疫機制呢要導入到各行政機關就是要對這一個資安的防疫呢來做一些防護的這個措施那當然我們從這個表裡面可以看到初期當然是針對這個資安責任A級機關為優先並依序呢要導入這個身份鑑別機制設備鑑別機制跟信任推斷機制可是我在查閱了這個訴發部資安署跟這個資安院這三個單位呢"},{"start":156.733,"end":160.814,"text":"我們看近年來跟明年這個預算書可以發現對於這個零信任架構的執行成果跟未來推動的目標各單位揭示的這個程度並不一致我們來看112年我們推動的這個成果本席有發現就速發布已經完成了22個資安A級機關的身份鑑別機制"},{"start":176.658,"end":195.449,"text":"可是設備鑑別機制、信任推斷機制目前還沒有看到。我們速發部的資安署已經完成了兩個政府機關的設備鑑別機制,然後國家資通安全研究院也完成兩個中央部會的設備鑑別機制。那我再次看114年的預算書裡面,"},{"start":198.191,"end":225.373,"text":"可是我看到這個可能很需要這個訴發部來做一個解釋為什麼我們只看到國家資通安全研究院是準備要導入19個資安A級的機關來做這個設備鑑別機制可是訴發部跟資安署這裡我沒有看到任何的這個設定的目標這個部分可以來解釋一下嗎那再來還有一點就是112年我們推動的成果這個我們已經完成我們導入了"},{"start":225.973,"end":227.374,"text":"關於那個零信任機制這個是我們速發部持續在我們持續在推動的一個那個"},{"start":255.578,"end":257.44,"text":"這部分讓我們常常會有一些疑問,為什麼你這個資料我們找不到?"},{"start":280.299,"end":280.539,"text":"資安署"},{"start":299.12,"end":316.665,"text":"報告主席跟委員,資安署的部分就是有關民信院的計劃其實是資安署委託資安院合作一起導入執行的所以這個並不是只有資安院在執行,是我們一起在進行"},{"start":317.085,"end":345.547,"text":"是 是 我有看到是沒錯我是說為什麼有些進度我們看到就是說也看不到進度那而且47個身份要導入47 要完成47個身份鑑別機制也是我在媒體看到一般在你們報告書裡面看不到所以那剛剛鄧慈有提到說有碰到了一些阻礙是怎麼樣的阻礙嗎我們覺得零信任架構也推行了這麼多年了我們總覺得說這部分好像推得卡卡的這部分到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":346.708,"end":360.651,"text":"跟委員報告那個零信任機制是對抗駭客一個非常有效的手段但是對於那個一般對所有使用者來講就是我每次在登入的時候比如說我那個密碼就必須重新再輸入等等他是有關關的關卡我們知道所以這個其實這是一個相對來講是比較安全的這個機制對可是為什麼我們在公部門會推行的覺得好像不是那麼的順利"},{"start":373.55,"end":400.651,"text":"再來講公文則要來配合來做才對啊報告委員資安署在辦理林信任部分是分三個階段在進行那他前兩年已經把林信任的前兩個階段導入到22個機關那接下來我們會針對47個機關進行所以並沒有是以逐步的計畫在進行那47個年底會完成嗎因為我在媒體看到說會完成"},{"start":401.131,"end":425.888,"text":"我們總共有49個A級的這個資安機關嘛49個因為文化部跟退府會在這個事辦的時候就已經完成了導入三個機制嘛所以我們剩下還47個總共還有47個那22個也在112年的時候已經完成身份鑑別機制了可是設備鑑別跟信任推斷這部分本席到目前都還沒有看到那剩下的呢我們47個總共會累計完成嗎"},{"start":429.271,"end":432.058,"text":"是在今年年底就會完成47個A級機關的導入"},{"start":435.25,"end":459.886,"text":"好那再來你看我們自己公務部門公務機關推行的好像都這麼卡卡的更何況我們還有44個資安A級特定非公務機關啊那什麼時候才能夠導入啊因為這些都是國家關鍵基礎設施的提供者像台電啊、中油、台大醫院、台鐵、高鐵銀行這個銀行等等都是喔所以到目前這個都還沒有還沒有這個進度對不對"},{"start":463.988,"end":482.062,"text":"我們目前先導入的部分是公務機關那CI的部分我們會陸續在明年開始推動OK 好 這個要加油喔因為我們在資料上面真的看不到你們這些資料就覺得說這部分推行的好像不是那麼的順利那再來還有我在八月份的時候有看到就是我們黃部長呢"},{"start":483.163,"end":483.263,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":499.261,"end":519.552,"text":"關於人工智慧風險分級框架現在事實上是還在一個討論的階段最主要的問題是在於說歐盟跟美國的做法是非常不一樣的歐盟那邊他們是用分級的方式就是把人工智慧分成好幾個危險程度然後在最高的級"},{"start":521.213,"end":547.051,"text":"最危險的那個層級他們是禁止使用的但是美國那邊呢他們是用分類而不是用分級的方式他們只是利用行政的就是行政部門由美國總統發出的名義簽署發布了一個指引就是說我們使用人工智慧有什麼危險那我們現在就是說因為美國他們認為說所謂的那個regulation hinder innovation他們的概念是這樣所以他們不希望"},{"start":547.791,"end":564.54,"text":"就是做這種明確的分析與禁止的那個動作那美國他們也明確的跟我們這些自由世界的這些那個夥伴國家跟我們講說他們不希望其他的國家是用那個歐盟那樣的方式因為歐盟那樣的方式的話會"},{"start":565.6,"end":585.349,"text":"那個會限制到的大部分的都是美國的公司因為我們知道現在在AI方面主要的那個在進行先進研發的公司像OpenAI、Google、Meta都是美國的公司所以說歐洲他們那邊他們是主張用那個限制的方式用立法限制的方式而美國那邊呢"},{"start":586.049,"end":587.57,"text":"法務部長提到年底本來想要來推行人工智慧的風險分析框架現在目前是"},{"start":612.944,"end":616.545,"text":"目前人工智慧基本法是由國科會主導在推動的,我們會配合國科會的計畫,我們會努力做我們該做的事情。"},{"start":639.534,"end":667.908,"text":"OK好那之前呢相關的這個AI的這個風險問題之前我跟國安會其實也做了很多的討論本期是建議像資安署、國安會還有國科會甚至我們資安研究院應該要成立一個類似跨部位類似這種AI資安的技術聯防的一個小組那我本來期待就是說我們的風險這個管理框架可以在年底的時候可以看得到可是目前正式的這個說話是這個部分還有很多討論的空間"},{"start":668.928,"end":688.55,"text":"是,這個不單單是我們台灣內部還有很多討論的空間,事實上在整個國際上,這個都是一個正在熱烈討論的議題。對,我們也有參考了其他國家比較成熟經驗的是RMF這個部分的話,像美國,它有提出了人工智慧風險管理框架,像這部分是不是也來做參考?"},{"start":689.711,"end":689.871,"text":"羅美玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":109,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時18分）謝謝主席，有請數發部林政次。"],["主席：請林政次。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：政次好。有關於10月底微軟有提出了一份2024數位防禦報告，裡面提到國家級的網路攻擊已經開始結合網路犯罪工具以及生成式AI技術，導致全球的資安危險是進一步升高，本席引用了這個報告的圖表，我們可以看到，在國家級網路攻擊行為者的目標名單當中，臺灣是排名全球第6，而且是印太地區第1名。","我們看到這份報告也列出了網路攻擊的10大目標產業，其中第一名就是我國的核心戰略產業之一的IT產業，關於關鍵基礎設施的政府部門，比如說像運輸業、金融業、資訊科技產業還有金融業等等，都是位列其中，一旦這些設施遭到攻擊的時候，對社會穩定跟經濟的秩序，就會帶來很直接而且巨大的衝擊。本席想請教，生成式AI現在被廣泛用在這種資安威脅當中，我們除了自動生成惡意程式之外，因為我看到了各部會的報告裡面特別有提到，像它可以自動生成惡意的程式之外，能夠協助計畫跟管理複雜的攻擊流程，像過去耗時的攻擊手段，可以更快、更頻繁地執行。","我很詳細看了數發部提交的報告，我們目前是將零信任架構的防禦機制導入到各行政機關，就是要對資安的防禦來做一些防護的措施，我們從這個表裡面可以看到，初期當然是針對資安責任A級機關為優先，並依序要導入身分鑑別機制、設備鑑別機制跟信任推斷機制，可是我在查閱了數發部、資安署跟資安院這三個單位，我們看近年來跟明年的預算書，可以發現對於零信任架構的執行成果跟未來推動的目標，各單位揭示的程度並不一致。我們來看112年推動的成果，本席有發現數發部已經完成了22個資安A級機關的身分鑑別機制，可是設備鑑別機制、信任推斷機制目前還沒有看到。而數發部資安署已經完成了兩個政府機關的設備鑑別機制，然後國家資通安全研究院也完成兩個中央部會的設備鑑別機制。我再次看114年的預算書，這個可能很需要數發部來做個解釋，為什麼我們只看到國家資通安全研究院是準備要導入19個資安A級的機關來做設備鑑別機制，可是數發部跟資安署這裡，我沒有看到任何設定的目標，這個部分可以來解釋一下嗎？","再來還有一點，112年我們推動的成果已經完成導入了22個資安A級機關利用這個身分鑑別的機制，可是我看到媒體報導是年底的時候會完成47個，到底現在進度是如何？因為現在也快要年底了，所以這幾個問題，想請政次來回答一下。"],["林次長宜敬：關於零信任機制，這個是我們數發部持續在推動的保護資通安全的一個重要措施，當然，導入零信任機制的時候，對於使用者來講會增加一些困難，所以我們也受到一些阻力，這個我們必須很坦白地講。"],["羅委員美玲：受到一些阻力？因為我發現我們的預算書或是成果的報告裡面，這部分讓我們常常會有一些疑問，為什麼我們找不到這個資料，到底是發生什麼問題？所以現在政次是說在推動的過程當中遇到了一些阻礙嗎？這個可以特別說明一下嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：抱歉，很坦白地跟委員報告，由於這個部分並不是我督導的，所以我請資安署來說明。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好。"],["趙組長由靖：報告主席跟委員，資安署的部分有關零信任的計畫其實是資安署委託資安院合作一起導入執行的，所以這個並不是只有資安院在執行，是我們一起在進行。"],["羅委員美玲：是。我有看到，是沒錯，我是說為什麼我們也看不到進度？而且要完成47個身分鑑別機制也是我在媒體看到的，一般在你們報告書裡面看不到，所以剛剛政次有提到碰到了一些阻礙，是怎麼樣的阻礙呢？零信任架構也推行了這麼多年，我們總覺得好像推得卡卡的，這部分到底是怎麼回事？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，零信任機制是對抗駭客一個非常有效的手段……"],["羅委員美玲：是，沒錯。"],["林次長宜敬：但是一般對所有使用者來講，就是我每次在登入的時候，譬如說密碼就必須重新再輸入等等……"],["羅委員美玲：是，它是有關關的關卡，我們知道。"],["林次長宜敬：對。"],["羅委員美玲：所以其實這相對來講，是一個比較安全的機制嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["羅委員美玲：對，可是為什麼我們在公部門推行的，覺得好像不是那麼順利？照理來講公部門要配合來做才對啊！"],["趙組長由靖：報告委員，資安署在辦理零信任部分是分三個階段在進行，前兩年已經把零信任的前兩個階段導入到22個機關，接下來我們會針對47個機關進行，所以是以逐步的計畫在進行。"],["羅委員美玲：47個年底會完成嗎？因為我在媒體看到說會完成……"],["趙組長由靖：是，沒錯。"],["羅委員美玲：我們總共有49個A級的資安機關嘛，因為文化部跟退輔會在試辦的時候就已經完成了，導入三個機制，所以我們剩下總共還有47個，而22個也在112年的時候已經完成身分鑑別機制了，可是設備鑑別跟信任推斷這部分，本席到目前都還沒有看到，那剩下的呢？我們總共47個會累計完成嗎？"],["趙組長由靖：是，在今年年底就會完成47個A級機關的導入。"],["羅委員美玲：好，再來，你看我們自己公務部門、公務機關的推行好像都這麼卡卡的，更何況我們還有44個資安A級特定非公務機關，那什麼時候才能夠導入？因為這些都是國家關鍵基礎設施的提供者，像台電、中油、臺大醫院、臺鐵、高鐵、銀行等等都是，所以目前都還沒有進度，對不對？"],["趙組長由靖：我們目前先導入的部分是公務機關，那CI的部分，我們會陸續在明年開始推動。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好，這個要加油，因為我們在資料上真的看不到，就覺得這部分推行的好像不是那麼順利。再來，我在8月份的時候，有看到我們黃部長提到年底要推出人工智慧風險分級框架，我本來想說你們這次的報告書裡面會提到這部分，可是發現你們隻字未提，這個會來推行嗎？他說年底就要推出了耶！那這部分呢？"],["林次長宜敬：OK，跟委員報告，關於人工智慧風險分級框架，事實上現在還在一個討論的階段，最主要的問題是在於歐盟跟美國的作法是非常不一樣的，歐盟那邊他們是用分級的方式，就是把人工智慧分成好幾個危險程度，然後在最高的、最危險的那個層級，他們是禁止使用的。但是美國那邊是用分類，而不是用分級的方式，他們只是利用行政部門由美國總統發出的名義簽署發布了一個指引，就是我們使用人工智慧有什麼危險。因為美國認為所謂regulation hinder innovation，他們的概念是這樣，所以他們不希望做這種明確的分級與禁止的動作。美國也明確的跟我們這些自由世界的夥伴國家講，他們不希望其他的國家是用歐盟那樣的方式，因為歐盟那樣的方式，會限制到的大部分都是美國的公司，因為我們知道現在在AI方面主要在進行先進研發的公司，像OpenAI、Google、Meta都是美國的公司。所以歐洲他們是主張用限制的方式，用立法限制的方式，而美國是希望說用分類以及用行政方式發布指引，就是提醒大家風險在哪裡的方式。事實上在整個社會，我們還必須經過一番討論決定要走往哪個方向，這件事情我們已經……"],["羅委員美玲：所以黃部長所提到的，年底本來想要來推行人工智慧的風險分級框架，目前是推不動的意思嗎？因為目前還有待社會上的對話，是這樣子的意思嘛？所以年底之前就沒有辦法來推行囉？那部長話有點講得太快了一點是不是？"],["林次長宜敬：是，因為這個計畫主要是……目前這個人工智慧基本法是由國科會主導在推動的，我們會配合國科會的計畫，努力做我們該做的事情。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好，相關AI的風險問題，之前我跟國安會其實也做了很多的討論，本席是建議像資安署、國安會還有國科會，甚至我們資安研究院，應該要成立一個類似跨部會，類似這種AI資安技術聯防的一個小組。我本來期待我們的風險管理框架在年底的時候可以看得到，可是目前政次的意思是這個部分還有很多討論的空間？"],["林次長宜敬：是，不單單是臺灣內部還有很多討論空間，事實上，在整個國際上，這個都是一個正在熱烈討論的議題，我們在……"],["羅委員美玲：對，因為我們也有看了，也參考了其他國家比較成熟經驗的RMF，這個部分的話像美國NIST有提出了人工智慧風險管理框架，像這部分是不是也來做參考？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["羅委員美玲：再來是FAIR，我想FAIR最近在金融業跟企業界也滿常用的，當然可以參考的標準很多，對於資安安全來講，臺灣是一個受到假訊息跟資安嚴重威脅的國家，我們希望有自己的架構出來。OK，以上，謝謝。"],["林次長宜敬：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員。","接下來我們請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}