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現在三黨的幹部都已經有 我知道開的"},{"start":1953.319,"end":1980.724,"text":"好謝謝啊今天我們現在民黨團的吳思瑤跟蔡宇幹事長、書記長都到了我們國民黨團林思明書記長也到了我們蔓一貞副書記長也到了哈非常歡迎那我們就邊開會邊等時間一到我們就就不再等了哈好謝謝今天主要我們有三個議題要跟各位黨團幹部一起協商首先呢我們來先協商上一次有幾個黨邊說到研會的事情所以今天這是"},{"start":1983.22,"end":2009.207,"text":"比較著急甚至包括一些委員在休會期間要拜訪選民啊有一些等等安排也都變得很重要所以想請教一下三黨的各位黨團幹部我們這次演會的大家要認為要演一個星期演兩個星期演三個星期等等就請各位黨團幹部來表達意見首先哪一位黨團先發言上次好請吳思堯幹事長請發言林思明書記長請準備"},{"start":2013.338,"end":2039.643,"text":"謝謝院長我想有關於研會的時間第一個我想勢必應當要研會因為總預算的延宕我們現在來趕進度也需要在法定的期程完成但恐怕也困難所以我們現在是在補課補進度所以人事同意權有四個那四個預算案那還有相關的法案所以民進黨團的立場是"},{"start":2043.252,"end":2065.22,"text":"當然上週我們協商好像已經講到一個一月二十四號的時間只要是有必要我們把會議的期程讓所有的議案都能夠完成審查好那一月二十四號當然也是主要就是看案子啦那我們對於就是最常會拉到一二四嘛那如果"},{"start":2067.321,"end":2095.604,"text":"情非得已就議案太多或者是延宕沒審的議案就是那麼多那恐怕到這一天也是不得不然我們必須在這個會期完成這個會期立法院職責該做的事情所以如果是當然也要看議事人員算一算我們審查的會議的時間剩多少那如果要這個就是情非得已一定要到最後一天一月二十四那我們當然就也願意來配合"},{"start":2096.411,"end":2105.259,"text":"謝謝吳世堯幹事長的發言。接下來請林思銘書記長發言,分層請準備。我想很高興聽到吳世堯幹事長對研會到1月24號,我想到1月24號,"},{"start":2112.785,"end":2137.136,"text":"24號、1月24號我想多留一些時間讓我們充分兜一種預算來做一個相關的審查總是好事因為假設說我們是到少一個禮拜假設還有很多議案沒有結束的話我想到過年大家很辛苦那如果說"},{"start":2138.297,"end":2161.397,"text":"能夠順利總預算順利能夠提早結束那我們現在預留這麼長的時間但是呢這還是有一個就是很好的一個彈性我們也可以提早結束啊所以留到就是到一月二十四號我覺得這個是最好最好的一目前來看是最好因為總預算可能我們以現在來評估的話應該要到二十四號以上謝謝謝謝林市長發言現在請吳春城幹事長請發言"},{"start":2164.843,"end":2189.651,"text":"那個民眾黨也同意可以延長到24號可以就在法案當中如果有必要的話到最後或者是21號24號可能要到最後一週啦最後一週21、24對如果先延長然後到時候要提早應該是沒有意見的對不好意思啊"},{"start":2191.721,"end":2197.358,"text":"那個三個黨團現在難得漢建立場一致那我們就休息三分鐘來溝通一下"},{"start":2489.775,"end":2517.846,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐剛才我們溝通的結果三黨的黨編一致認為我們研會到一月二十一號再一次請教各位黨編黨團幹部我們研會到一月二十一號有沒有其他意見OK好的好確定那我們現在來炒您剛才大家所協商的結論然後等一下再拜託各位黨團幹部請簽字好請稍待一下"},{"start":2570.126,"end":2578.972,"text":"謝謝現在我們再一次重申決定事項本第二會期延至一百一四年一月二十一日星期二止好跟黨團不搞我現在簽字要請大家好"},{"start":2765.66,"end":2774.709,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐大家在簽名都簽差不多了好謝謝再次感謝那現在我要跟各位黨團幹部報告一下現在已經我們確定21號我們延到21號就休會那麼"},{"start":2782.188,"end":2806.828,"text":"現在我們要來協商附屬單位的密集協商。請問,哎,副總召來了,請坐。請問,對我知道,沒關係,我一個一個來。我們下一個禮拜,下個星期要進行附屬單位的密集協商。我們要發開會通知。請問,各位黨團幹部,我們下週哪一天適合開始密集協商?要請教,就教與各位黨團幹部,請大家共,共決。來,林思明書記長請,請發言。"},{"start":2810.916,"end":2825.712,"text":"延長是下...就是請要先查一下下週我們預計就是下個禮拜從禮拜幾開始?星期二還是星期...預計有沒有預計?就是看大家的意見就從星期一就開始喔?"},{"start":2829.281,"end":2830.222,"text":"我們請吳思堯幹事長表達意見"},{"start":2845.469,"end":2872.757,"text":"謝謝院長我想因為大家都同時還有在委員會審查預算的職責所以密集協商是不是就排下午的時間那如果下午的時間因為週二的院會是正副院長的這個詢答考試院那也許大家可以有詢答去沒有就空出時間所以譬如說我認為禮拜二的下午禮拜五"},{"start":2873.942,"end":2886.906,"text":"也是詢答那個考委嘛齁禮拜五的下午二五的下午我們應該都可以然後禮拜四的下午應當也是可以啦二四五的下午應當都可以看看大家吳士堯幹什麼意思是說二三二五跟二六"},{"start":2904.398,"end":2929.683,"text":"報告院長,但是就是要審酌院長可能要在院會主持,或者是你們會,好不好意思,好謝謝。那再請教一下林市民院長請發言。報告院長,院長我們因為二十六號我們有行程,所以我們希望在二七開始。二十七、二八、二九、三四五,下個星期三、星期四、星期五。那如果可以的話,我們總共早上就可以。是民國一百三年的那個。"},{"start":2933.7,"end":2938.005,"text":"對阿就是就下個禮拜三開始阿"},{"start":2949.116,"end":2973.006,"text":"那如果一、四、五呢?二、七、二、八、二、九啦。二、七、二、八、二、九。二、七、二、八、二、九。林思銘書記長的意思是十一月二十六號星期二。十一月二十八號星期四。十一月二十九號星期五。不是。二十七號開始。星期三、星期四、星期五。十一月二十七號星期三。"},{"start":2980.872,"end":2993.602,"text":"黃國昌總召也到了現在我們確定要密集協商附屬單位的也特別跟黃國昌總召民眾黨團幹部來報告一下現在民進黨所提的就是"},{"start":2997.65,"end":3005.5,"text":"262829但是林思明書記長提的是272829請問一下台灣民眾黨團有什麼寶貴意見沒有跟針對這個密集協商下星期我們要開要發開會通知請262829"},{"start":3031.172,"end":3035.076,"text":"我想請教一下齁就所謂譬如說不管是27號還是28號"},{"start":3046.443,"end":3069.243,"text":"因為院長在忙,所以我先讓院長忙我們現在時間,對不起啊不會不會請說那個不好意思,我請教一下院長齁就不管是剛剛譬如說假設剛剛都有提到的27號或者是28號所謂的密集協商指的是從下午開始還是從上午開始下午開始嘛所以下午開始就比較不會去影響到我們早上在各個委員會27號"},{"start":3073.271,"end":3088.127,"text":"我這邊方便的是,我這邊整個院本部這邊方便行的也是二六、二八、二九。我們需要排幾天啊?三天,最少三天。可是我們二十六號可能會比較麻煩一點點。"},{"start":3095.763,"end":3120.001,"text":"對,如果是二七、二八、二九的話跟我們現在看到的時程比較不會有衝突啦因為黨團有一些其他已經發出開會通知的公聘會那那個我們已經發出開會通知了嘛那我如果說要取消改期要通知那麼多人全部再重新搞一次這樣子不好意思啦"},{"start":3121.243,"end":3142.976,"text":"也就是說台灣民眾黨團也是希望27、28、29請問那個吳思瑤幹事長請問有沒有什麼我想28、29大家都OK好就是剩下26或27那大家商量看看那如果25呢25禮拜一的下午就大家瞧看看有沒有可能就是"},{"start":3145.802,"end":3167.277,"text":"那個我先請教一下如果是二十五的下午的話我們會到幾點因為我本來因為我不知道所謂的密集協商是下午開始我們就一路到晚上十二點還是會到六點因為這個會影響到大家工作的安排密集協商一旦換就是有可能直接從下午例如三點就有可能到十二點"},{"start":3168.315,"end":3194.172,"text":"那這樣的話對不起,二十五號沒有辦法。還是二十五號就是先下午嘛,譬如說兩點到六點,然後二八、二九再看狀況,一定拉長一定是最後一天才在拉長嘛。那個,呃,幹長我請教一下,二十七號你們那邊是決定不行的?二十七,那如果二十七的話可以譬如說三點再開始嗎?好啊好啊,那如果這樣二十七可以啊,好那二十七、二十八、二十九?"},{"start":3194.972,"end":3220.99,"text":"好啊好啊好啊,那這樣OK,我本來想說會一點多,還可以272829,好,那這樣好。好,那再一次跟大家報告,請副國務卿總召。呃,院長齁。"},{"start":3225.478,"end":3235.505,"text":"剛剛很抱歉因為我們黨團還有會議所以我們現在第一個就是一月二十一號是我們研會的最後一天這個待會"},{"start":3239.069,"end":3265.406,"text":"國民黨會簽字因為聽說是院長才是我們尊重我們總是希望能開到二十四號那居然說我們立法院本院有一些工作上的時程的需求那到一月二十一號院會結束我們競表同意那對於這個協商的部分我覺得黨團幹部有黨團幹部的職責那抄以協商為什麼一定要下午開始"},{"start":3267.282,"end":3291.069,"text":"早上其實就應該要開始了那因為啊接下來因為我們第一個為什麼會提到21號除了院長才是以外因為接下來還有很多預算案的討論各黨團委員所提出來的這些預算案的討論都會曠日廢時啊也大家要投入更多的時間這才會想說早上九點就可以開始討論了嘛"},{"start":3292.845,"end":3317.884,"text":"為什麼一定要下午而且早上討論大家也說實在也比較輕專注力也更高那第二個就是說黨團幹部啊反正各黨就三位嘛黨團幹部當然你還在距離各委員會我想還是以整個黨團的工作為主要主要因為我們各黨團也要對院方要負責"},{"start":3319.815,"end":3345.169,"text":"所以應該是黨團幹部做黨團幹部的職責各委員會去做各委員會該做的事情我覺得這樣子我們早上九點就可以開始本來可以一天結束的不需要拉兩三天嘛兩天可以結束的不需要拉三天嘛我想這樣的話是不是給大家做一個參考好不好好因為現在跟各黨的幹部報告我要請那個"},{"start":3347.06,"end":3368.883,"text":"台灣民眾黨要發言嗎?黃組長?沒有齁?那我想請高處長解釋一下,請。跟各位黨編報告齁,過去在預算案的密集協商的時候,因為各委員會的專門委員,他相對應的那個委員會,他要來密集協商做幕僚。那現在因為常設委員會,目前早上都在開會。以上給大家補充。"},{"start":3370.27,"end":3398.653,"text":"所以特別跟副總統報告因為現在各委員會還在開會所以我們就選下午時間來密集協商如果而後有其他的議案啊預算案等等大家早上時間都可以我們當然可以早上九點開始協商這個絕對沒問題我相信這個大家都有默契好不好那二十一號為什麼請二十一號截止也請不要二十四號就是因為所有的預算案審查完畢之後院本部還要有時間來處理這些剩下的這些事情所以說二十一號之後休會之後"},{"start":3399.193,"end":3421.251,"text":"二二二三二四院裡面所有的各個整個機器都動起來要審查後續所有的一些事情需要給他們一點一點點時間這邊一併跟大家報告一下好不好好那就確定我們請副會長請因為我們還是要再一次來確認一下因為這個事情是很嚴肅的事情"},{"start":3422.864,"end":3444.151,"text":"查理協商在尤其在預算年度的話那真的是千絲萬縷好多好多各種委員各種選區都不同有提出很多的問題我們都必須在這裡討論是真的要花很多的時間那至於說早上九點鐘是理所當然可以開始但是說碰到委員會碰到委員會"},{"start":3446.468,"end":3473.951,"text":"如果當天已有開的,比方說我們現在審查交通預算的整體的協商一案一案來那如果交通委員會今天要去排部長到交通委員會備詢如果時間有抵觸的話,我們都可以再調整嘛但是時間上還是從早上是比較適合因為呢,我們一次進行也是一個部會進行完再下一個部會嘛"},{"start":3474.975,"end":3498.916,"text":"那那個部會的時候因為每一個委員會都可以排不只一個部會的巡打當草野協商在進行的時候那個委員會可以調整到其他的部會所以我想這個請議事處就是草野協商為主要跟哪個就盡量不要跟委員會去衝突這應該是可以協調的"},{"start":3502.663,"end":3529.103,"text":"對,就是因為首長要來嘛,要到草野協商備詢,所以我剛剛提到最主要就是說,不要跟委員會的,比如說交通委員會要求交通部長到委員會去備詢的時候,那個時間我們草野協商當然可以九點舉行,但是我們不要去審查,不要去處理這個交通部的預算就好了。這個我想都可以協調的啦。"},{"start":3532.133,"end":3554.689,"text":"基本上我們來協調,我覺得各黨團幹部去協調各黨團內部的召委,不要,盡量不要跟超級行動去衝突,因為那畢竟是各委員所提出來的案子。好,謝謝副管理總統,請吳思堯幹事長請發言。"},{"start":3556.665,"end":3577.544,"text":"我想就請大家思考看看因為剛剛好不容易喬出272829的三個下午三點開始大家應當時間都可以這樣那就我過去的經驗每一次在協商這個就是密集協商那個預算的時候他定在下午都有原因的"},{"start":3578.204,"end":3606.912,"text":"當然就是讓議事人員方便而且現在各個委員會都密集在審預算當然剛剛副總召說去協調也不是不行只是就會增加了很多交接換手的這個還包括這些部會首長要來參與協商所以單純化啦就這三天就先來試行大家時間也都可以嘛沒有說因為這三天時間已經卡住了嘛對不對我們原本就預估三個下午來試看看那如果真的再不夠"},{"start":3607.972,"end":3617.798,"text":"那後面再來增加上午的時間因為剛剛我的理解是如果27、28、29大家下午都有問題的話那可能才要想到說調到早上"},{"start":3618.356,"end":3640.721,"text":"可是既然三個下午剛剛三檔都可以了我們就先這樣優先來處理那就我個人來講我是非常重視我想易宇燕也是我除了是黨邊的身份當然我們早上在部會詢答預算我們也是同等的關切所以是希望能夠取其balance是除非沒有辦法協調才有要取捨的問題"},{"start":3643.622,"end":3662.115,"text":"但是如果時間可控那我希望都兼顧眼前的工作預算的審查跟這個預算的協商都能夠兼顧所以請求二七二八二九如果三四五下午的三點開始三檔大家時間都OK的話就照這個時間先排看看謝謝謝謝請副會長再次發言請院長本期剛剛講這些事情是大家一起來討論"},{"start":3672.099,"end":3682.314,"text":"那272829三天剛剛院長已經提了國民黨也有提出272829三天這三天我們當然可以配合但我不是在講這三天因為未來"},{"start":3684.029,"end":3704.046,"text":"我們不曉得各政黨會提出多少的提案需要來討論我們是建議讓我們的效率上能夠更加的提升可以從早上九點開會就可以早上九點開好不好那至於說跟委員會有衝堂的部分都可以去協商嘛"},{"start":3704.887,"end":3723.255,"text":"對不對由議事處這裡啊來跟我們來溝通齁然後各黨團去協調嘛主要是國民黨跟民進黨去協調嘛自己的召委嘛協調一下不要跟這個這個用會的草野協商來衝突嘛主要是這樣子嘛好不好非常好副科技總召用心良苦啦我懂那個"},{"start":3725.284,"end":3735.052,"text":"請各黨團幹部來我來嘗試一下做個小結論好不好我們附屬單位的密集協商就定在11月27號下午3點28、29下午3點連續三天這是第一個第二個勒"},{"start":3740.649,"end":3766.802,"text":"附屬單位預算之後而後還有其他重要的議案也好預算也好我們以後朝野協商就不拘泥不拘泥只有一次下午有的時候也可以從早上九點開始我想這個剛剛副總召所講的這個我覺得是可以採納的只要大家能夠確定這個時間是OK的話我們必要時早上九點十點開始協商也沒有問題我想這是也跟大家一併報告那我們先確定十一月二七二八二九下午三點開始附屬單位"},{"start":3767.823,"end":3770.874,"text":"協商好嗎?好,確定。好,謝謝。我們也定下來。"},{"start":3774.81,"end":3798.347,"text":"我們就不在再來我就要跟大家報告我們今天所討論的協商的第二案台灣民眾黨團建請院會決作成決議成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會上一次呢我們國發會還有列席的司法院法務部的官員都已經發言完畢各位委員也已經發言完畢請教今天黨團幹部有沒有意見要補充請蔡依瑜書記長請好"},{"start":3805.082,"end":3827.552,"text":"謝謝院長那針對這個民眾黨團建請的這個決議他的內容是說成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料．於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會那這個案我們從"},{"start":3832.335,"end":3852.588,"text":"這個提案的名稱就可以發現說國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職哇這個名字從這個名稱起來就覺得他的範圍是過大那這個範圍過大範圍就沒有辦法確定這件事情勒事實上在於立法院職權行使法45條第三項"},{"start":3854.229,"end":3878.019,"text":"他講得很清楚是四五條的第三項說調查委員會的名稱、調查事項、目的、方法及成員人數由院會議決之也就是我們在院會議決的時候就必須要把調查委員會的名稱、調查事項、目的、方法及成員人數要做一個決定這個是在院會議決但是在這一次的限訴法第九條也"},{"start":3879.84,"end":3892.998,"text":"講得很清楚因為他就這個調查的方法跟事項在我們這個宣判制的第九號裡面第四十五條這個立法院行為行使法第四十五條第三項我現在是念這個宣判制的內容"},{"start":3898.484,"end":3917.11,"text":"應經議會議決之調查事項括號含範圍目的及方法尚需具體明確所以這個具體明確就很重要了然後必立據與行使調查權之行使是否立法院憲法職權之行使有重大關聯而且必要所以這個範圍必須要明確那如果範圍沒有明確的話"},{"start":3921.471,"end":3942.339,"text":"基本上就會構成了有違憲之餘．因為他這邊選．於此前提下．其規定史不勝抵觸憲法的一個問題．那尤其他的後段還有講喔．你對於調查方法中．你涉及到你要克與政府人員．或人民的陳述證言表示意見的．協助調查義務的．你的對象跟義務的範圍．這個也要經過院會的議決．"},{"start":3950.083,"end":3954.545,"text":"所以說我們一開始就要先設定好我們到底這個調查事項要調查什麼那如果我們在上一次協商的時候民眾黨有提到說因為他是為了要修法然後這個修法有涉及到未來國家發展基金他在投資的時候有幾個項目包括說可能涉及到有虧損他不能去做紓困或者涉及到說他在中國有重大投資那我們的國發基金就不要再去"},{"start":3979.598,"end":3994.969,"text":"投資在中國在主要業務在中國就的印象是這樣那如果是這樣的話基本上就要講清楚啊說到底哪一個好如果上次說聯合再生那我們就講清楚說我們要調查聯合再生"},{"start":3995.849,"end":4013.483,"text":"如果他是說涉及到紓困上次有講到爐心那就把爐心講清楚這是我們的調查範圍但是我們現在這個名稱看起來對於範圍這件事情是沒有特定的沒有特定的話基本上就會陷入到了第45條第三項這個範圍沒有具體明確那就直接會跑到了"},{"start":4018.487,"end":4044.001,"text":"限訴法第九條的違憲所以我還是具體建議院長說我們真的需要就限訴法第九條那跟現在的立法院行為行使法未來他要怎麼去做相對應的適應那哪一些法條未來應該要怎麼行使那我們是不是要先特定後我們再來討論要成立調查委員會那以上是我的一個具體建議謝謝謝謝蔡議員書記長的發言接下來黃國昌總召請補充"},{"start":4048.366,"end":4073.886,"text":"之前上一次其實已經講得很明確綁了特定議案就是產狀條例修法的議案至於說剛剛蔡議員所講的憲判制的判決大家都有看我們當然就是按照憲判制具體下去做我覺得可能從民進黨的角度上面來看是應該先修法修完法以後再來做那我們完全抱持不一樣的看法"},{"start":4075.399,"end":4104.411,"text":"憲判治理也沒有宣告違憲的部分那我們就可以繼續做阿等到院會作成了決議以後如果民主金不當黨團認為通過這樣一個調查委員會本身就是違憲的話台灣是一個民主法治的國家該怎麼做就怎麼做但我是不會同意啦再透過協商這個程序去拖延或者是去阻礙我們接下來所提出來的議案因為上個禮拜五我本來就要處理了"},{"start":4105.461,"end":4118.355,"text":"但我覺得院長出來調和頂賴院長說其他黨團想要再講一些話我基本上也不尊重那他們要講的話今天也講了嘛那我們接下來就按照程序來處理"},{"start":4120.855,"end":4137.986,"text":"國民黨團林士明書記長請發言好 謝謝院長我想剛才參與阿書記長的疑慮我也在這邊說明一下其實如果依照這樣子的一個標題來成立我們的調查委員會不會跟憲判制第九號有所違背"},{"start":4138.706,"end":4165.993,"text":"就是說剛才蔡議員提到說這個會違反調查的範圍、目的、方法、明確性的一個原則其實我想這整個題目就講得很清楚就特定議案所以特定議案到時候這個調查委員會成立之後當然要調查什麼樣的特定議案一定會在調查委員會成立之後就會提出來所以這個不存在所謂的跟憲判之第九號"},{"start":4167.013,"end":4190.798,"text":"有漢格的一個地方這是第一個要說明的第二個就是說其實我們在整個第二次委員會成立之後當然就是依照我們這個憲判之地所這個認定合憲的這個例子法來做相關的一個調查我想這是我們國會行使監督制衡行政單位非常重要的一個這個調查權"},{"start":4193.547,"end":4209.8,"text":"那我想這也是樹立我們這個因為憲判之第九號我們新的歷史法三讀通過之後到底立法院如何來洗指調查權這是首創啊所以我們覺得我們應該要支持啊好 好 謝謝好 吳世耀幹事長請發言"},{"start":4213.584,"end":4226.898,"text":"謝謝我想這個是我自己已經多次在論述立法院成立調查委員會你把這一個手段跟你的修法的工具有沒有對等"},{"start":4228.019,"end":4251.925,"text":"恕我直言民眾黨要針對產創條例第30條來修法產創條例30條民眾黨的條文是要增加最後一項也就是增加第二項要針對國發基金的運用得運用於什麼情形不得運用於什麼情形的單一項的修法恕我直言要修這個法"},{"start":4252.99,"end":4267.749,"text":"要去對於我們增訂這一項是否合宜其實要召開的是公聽會而不是去成立調查委員會我們在審查非常多的法案"},{"start":4268.95,"end":4291.522,"text":"內容有疑義跟公共事務相關或是涉及特定團體本身那麼公聽會就是我們最常運用的一個手段跟方式那以我看到民眾黨產串條第30條對於國發基金的運用你想要去界定到底是不是以來投資於"},{"start":4292.162,"end":4307.89,"text":"企業虧損之紓困,適不適宜投資於主要生產活動位於中國大陸之企業,適不適宜投資於過去三年違反環保、勞工、食安等情節重大的事宜,坦白講,這個修法非常的不困難。"},{"start":4311.434,"end":4324.903,"text":"我不要說它非常簡單這甚至召開公聽會在經濟委員會或者是要聯席委員會委員都有足夠的資訊能夠來有利於這個條例的修法如何"},{"start":4325.876,"end":4343.747,"text":"所以說不要無限上綱就我來看今天民眾黨要成立調查委員會然後也知道憲判的要求調查權是立法委員的輔佐性的權利他必須跟他的職權行使有重大關聯者"},{"start":4345.228,"end":4372.877,"text":"那他的職權行使有重大關聯者．包括是審法案也好．或是審預算也好．恕我直言．現在為了調查而調查．然後去．拿一個我要修產創條例30條．就我來看這是非常粗糙的．一個兜出來的理由．Sorry這是我的觀察．這是我的觀點．所以要開的．好．就說我以小人之心度君子之腹好了．"},{"start":4374.249,"end":4394.257,"text":"那如果要修產創條例三十條您的增加這一項你真的需要的是一場公聽會一場不夠可以開兩場可以開三場而不是漫天的包山包海的要針對國發基金來成立一個調查委員會我也要說"},{"start":4396.089,"end":4416.695,"text":"如果要了解相關的法律非常多,如果要修運動發展基金的運發條例,那是不是未來省運發條例的每一條都要成立一個針對運動產業投資的調查委員會呢?不應當如此嗎?或者是我們要了解國家對於文創產業、文化獎勵條例的投資,"},{"start":4421.036,"end":4439.536,"text":"要修法,所以就要去成立對於國家投資、文策院用投融資的方式來投入台灣的文化產業要成立一個調查委員會然後包山包海,漫無目的我認為這樣子的手段跟目的是顯然不對等"},{"start":4440.529,"end":4451.251,"text":"所以呢剛剛蔡易如委員蔡易如委員書記長也提到因為上週的協商黃總召黃國昌總召先行離開了可能我在做這個發言的時候您已經不在場了"},{"start":4452.423,"end":4475.82,"text":"我手上拿出來的是國發基金二零二三的年報或者是一百一十三年第二季最新的年報我們都可以清楚的看到國發基金的投資有多少重要新興事業的投資就有七十二個公司我手上這一本七十二個公司就是重要新興事業投資這是第一個"},{"start":4477.025,"end":4500.59,"text":"第二種叫專案投資專案投資裡面有中小企業的投資我們創產業的投資策略性服務業的投資跟策略性製造業的投資每一項都投資了上百間公司這是第二大類叫專案投資國發基金投資的第三大類叫做創業投資事業的投資也是幾百項"},{"start":4501.894,"end":4514.888,"text":"第四大類是就是我們五本席一直投入的就是天使基金我們要對於這些startup初期的創投的投資創業天使投資方案也是幾百項的投資"},{"start":4516.778,"end":4539.792,"text":"那麼還有一項是疫情之後影響新創事業的專案投資所以加總起來國發基金的我等一下可以請副主委講嘛就是上千間吧我難以數計的投資案我不曉得黃國昌委員我說您的這個調查案所謂國發基金的不當投資這漫無目的請問你是要這數千家公司都要來調查嗎"},{"start":4542.83,"end":4557.85,"text":"安內布迪布告包山包海就為了您要修產創條例三十條增加一項這是一個不對等的您真的需要的是開公聽會而不是調查委員會甚至如果就條文論條文"},{"start":4559.593,"end":4571.969,"text":"黃國昌委員您對於產創條例三十條您顯然想要用調查委員會來有利於您在修法當中的論述就是國發基金適不適宜來投資企業虧損之紓困。"},{"start":4574.452,"end":4603.391,"text":"如果舊條文論條文,國發基金它當然沒有辦法去投資的每一間公司都是沒有虧損的。如果大家都要去投會賺錢的,那還需要國發基金嗎?尤其對於新創這種初期的,它必然是會有一段時間它有風險,它會有虧損。如果您對於這個條文只要國發基金,你認為投到虧損的企業好像就是不對的。"},{"start":4604.652,"end":4628.63,"text":"我認為這樣是對於整個投資的大環境是完全的曲解跟錯解所以我再次說請把立法院職權行使法第八章有關調查權之行使現在部分違憲部分合憲它已經是一個拼裝車式的調查權的行使先把法修好"},{"start":4630.211,"end":4653.15,"text":"先把法修好再來成立調查委員會這樣立法院的調查委員會才會更有強而有力的武器而不是現在前後的條文彼此有矛盾有漢格那這樣子的調查顯然也沒有辦法全面跟合理所以我再次奉勸"},{"start":4655.311,"end":4669.418,"text":"剛剛黃總召一直在說言下之意就是啊今天協商公共會啊你說你的我也不想要聽啦吼然後呢啊就照程序黃國昌總召的意思就是啊院會就表決就好了我還是希望院長您應當您應當"},{"start":4672.782,"end":4695.264,"text":"在這個議案上採取立法院應當有的態度跟立場被宣判違憲的國會擴權法案當中很大一包叫做調查權立法院現在是不是優先要針對調查權相關的修法做好才適宜去成立任何一個單一的調查委員會我認為院長您應當要有這個高度跟態度"},{"start":4695.985,"end":4724.273,"text":"否則在這種拼裝車之下法沒修好這裡也要調查委員會那裡也要調查委員會我認為這樣子的調查是為調查而調查沒有意義。謝謝司也、幹事長。黃國昌總召請二十分。王宏威首席副市長請準備。其實我覺得坐在這邊討論事情的時候我的希望就是論事啦。所以我就不希望"},{"start":4726.101,"end":4748.479,"text":"好像指名道姓的說人家如何但如果要這樣子發言的話我其實也可以這樣發言就是說其實我也奉勸吳思瑤委員在討論事實的時候可能要本於事實的基礎你說你上次發言的時候我人不在場不會啊你上次發言的時候我人在場"},{"start":4749.58,"end":4767.653,"text":"你剛剛所講的內容啊大概有百分之八十以上你上一次全部都講過今天只是搬來再重新講一次而已啊那個院長可不可以制止他剛剛你在講話的時候我都沒有插嘴嘛然後我現在坐在這邊講話你不斷的干擾啊院長可以克制他嗎"},{"start":4775.353,"end":4804.328,"text":"OK好所以啦我還是奉勸吳世耀委員說話本於事實的基礎你上次講的時候我在這邊我從頭到尾聽啊聽完了以後我才發言的啊我從頭到尾把這個調查委員會到底跟哪個議案綁在一起解釋得很清楚啦上次討論的時候不管是鍾嘉賓委員還是吳世耀委員都強調啊說要跟特定的議案綁在一起啊"},{"start":4805.379,"end":4829.918,"text":"所以我才很清楚的講啊我在提調查委員會的提案以前產狀條例的修法草案我已經提出來了啊那你總不可能說看到調查委員會的時候先質疑你說你這個不行啊你要跟法律案綁在一起啊你要跟預算案綁在一起啊結果後來發現人家真的有跟法律案綁在一起的時候又開始轉另外一個論述"},{"start":4832.286,"end":4857.027,"text":"轉180度說你這個法律案很簡單啊這個開公聽會就好啦這何必要開調查委員會一個法案在處理的時候到底適合開公聽會或者是要成立調查委員會連接聽證會我想每一個提案的委員每一個提案的黨團都有他心裡面他的目的他的打算嘛"},{"start":4858.513,"end":4878.169,"text":"那民進黨認為說啊這個開公聽會就好了那我就很直接講嘛台灣民眾黨黨團競表不同意嘛我們認為這個要成立調查委員會而且要連結聽證會才有辦法達到我們想要達到的目的嘛我在討論這個法條的時候想"},{"start":4880.501,"end":4903.736,"text":"說欸國家發展基金不可以成為紓困基金我上次開會的時候講得很清楚啊提這個論述的人不是我這也不是我獨唱的啊潘孟安秘書長在當立法委員的時候就一而再再而三強調啊甚至以前民進黨在野還有理想性的時候說什麼欸國家發展基金啊這個管理要用條例啊"},{"start":4904.83,"end":4933.53,"text":"怎麼可以用行政命令的方式用行政命令授權的方式國家發展基金搞去胡搞瞎搞變成紓困基金國家發展基金不可以成為紓困基金啊所以我們才提這個案子嘛那第二個那我們國家發展基金到底有沒有成為紓困基金的現象那這個正是調查委員會要處理的事情嘛如果國家發展基金就沒有"},{"start":4934.588,"end":4953.267,"text":"成為紓困基金的現象或是我們國發基金雖然投了虧損的公司但是我們經過調查經過聽證以後發現他一開始利益良善他一開始利益良善投資決策都沒有錯我們要鼓勵一些新創的"},{"start":4955.199,"end":4969.934,"text":"提升產業轉型的投的都沒有錯那以後我們如果立這個條款法會二殺我們國發基金對於投資對於新創對於產業轉型的需求那因此這個條款"},{"start":4971.601,"end":4999.326,"text":"不宜把它立下去也有可能得到這樣子的結論嘛那總是經過一個程序了以後你所得到的事證資料提供所有立委充足的參考依據來作為最後我們在審理議案的基礎嘛而不是一人一把號各吹各的調大家看法都不一樣但相反的如果調查下去的話調查"},{"start":5001.17,"end":5020.722,"text":"欸我們國發基金在投的時候有的時候真的投一些不僅僅是虧損嚴重甚至是莫名其妙的投資決策什麼叫莫名其妙的投資決策我們怎麼會去投牛仔褲的代工廠這個是哪一個新創還是哪一個轉型"},{"start":5024.178,"end":5044.317,"text":"我完全看不到新創我也完全看不到轉型去投資一個牛仔褲的代工廠然後工廠全部都設在中國大陸然後從台灣的資本市場從國庫裡面搬錢去對面在那邊虧虧到現在股票變幣紙沒有人要負責船過水無痕反正是納稅人的錢嘛"},{"start":5051.857,"end":5080.035,"text":"有什麼關係?欸大家調查出來以後看到這樣子的結果覺得欸這樣不行欸我們有進一步控管的必要甚至覺得我們提出來那個條文控管的還不夠嚴格要再增加也沒有問題啊這個就是我們成立這個調查委員會跟公定會連結的必要性嘛那如果真的要講到憲判的話老實講憲判也沒那麼複雜嘛"},{"start":5081.803,"end":5105.176,"text":"主要多數的條文都合憲啊但不能處罰處罰就違憲從調查權的行使一路到刑法那個部分都一樣啊我們的大法官創造一個非常重要的中華民國憲政價值啊就是早來調查委員會備詢的時候可以說謊不准處罰"},{"start":5107.22,"end":5134.572,"text":"說謊沒有關係不來也沒有關係你如果說謊不來就要處罰就違憲我們大法官宣告的憲政價值全台灣人民都看得很清楚了嘛有人認同有人反對台灣是一個多元民主的社會各種聲音通通都有嘛我個人是反對但是我們反對歸反對我們還是尊重體制嘛尊重這個體制"},{"start":5136.075,"end":5164.51,"text":"我對這個判決的結果很遺憾我覺得這一群大法官去宣告在台灣的國會說謊不可以處罰是我們的憲政價值我覺得很遺憾那遺憾歸遺憾我今天還是按照立法院職權行使法的規定符合宪判制的要求提出我們的提案那其他黨的委員有不同的看法我也尊重台灣本來就是一個多元民主的社會"},{"start":5166.516,"end":5183.391,"text":"那我只是希望說當大家有不一樣看法的時候那難不成是要在這邊拖到大家有一致看法才能夠處理如果大家沒有一致的看法只要民主進步黨的黨團代表反對這件事情就沒有辦法處理恐怕遊戲規則也不是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":5185.632,"end":5187.955,"text":"以上針對第二次的發言,簡短回應,謝謝。"},{"start":5205.75,"end":5227.668,"text":"我想先謝謝院長再次針對這次我們要針對國發基金來成立調查委員會再度的協商因為事實上在上一次的協商裡面其實我們針對國發基金裡面的它包含的一些投資虧損甚至是弊案其實大家已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":5228.388,"end":5232.31,"text":"那當然就是其實我想現在的民進黨因為他擺出來態度非常的明確也就是說就是反對成立這個調查委員會但是呢我覺得這樣子一直透過冗長的發言或者像這樣倒帶式的一直在做這些重複我覺得只是浪費時間跟拖延而已"},{"start":5253.44,"end":5277.265,"text":"那我必須講的就是說其實我們在這一次所提出來的成立調查委員會已經基於在這次釋憲案國會改革的釋憲案之後那麼在我們的院會成立調查委員會已經是合憲的而且我們也願意遵守按照依照我們的立法院職權行使法來成立調查委員會我不曉得還有什麼問題"},{"start":5282.771,"end":5310.982,"text":"如果說今天我們成立調查委員會．變成合憲也不讓你成立．然後你說不合憲也不讓你成立．那到底我們立法院的職權在哪裡．我覺得不能那麼阿拔了．還有一點．我也覺得我們各政黨．擁護有不同的立場．但是不需要來下指導旗．"},{"start":5312.406,"end":5323.818,"text":"我覺得各政黨都有可能提案修法那麼在提案修法的過程裡面需要成立調查委員會或者是聽證會來補強加強那請問一下這樣有什麼問題呢為什麼要去指導人家說啊你應該去成立你應該去用公聽會啊"},{"start":5334.195,"end":5356.495,"text":"我覺得不需要下這樣的指導期吧如果我們今天的朝野協商變成你動不動就要來指導其他的政黨我覺得沒有必要而且也是浪費時間另外我也沒有辦法接受我們在協商的過程裡面大家各抒己見嘛什麼在指導院長要有應當要有什麼樣的態度院長應當要有什麼樣的態度"},{"start":5361.019,"end":5378.288,"text":"院長不是在協商嗎?不是在尊重每一個政黨代表的發言嗎?如果今天我們的協商變成動不動在下指導期,可以指導其他政黨,還可以指導院長應該持什麼樣的態度,這是協商嗎?我們是來聽訓的吧?"},{"start":5381.84,"end":5393.868,"text":"那至於國家發展基金應不應該成立調查委員會我上次就說過我們走出這個會議室大家看大家對國家發展基金的評價是什麼不停的虧損不停的踩雷不停的出現弊案立法院成立一個調查委員會給人民一個報告有何不可不應該嗎人民沒有知的權利嗎"},{"start":5411.826,"end":5417.093,"text":"而且按照如果說按照這個現在民進黨的態度"},{"start":5418.226,"end":5424.651,"text":"如果不修法就不能成立調查委員會的話那麼我們根本就沒有辦法成立任何的調查委員會啊那這樣的拖延我覺得這是不合理的所以啊我想院長辛苦了也許院長待會我們再告一段落真的應該做出一個決定我們應該做一些處理吧否則的話我們只是不停的在聽訊啊我們沒有道理我們也沒有這個義務啊在接受別人的指導以上"},{"start":5448.8,"end":5471.74,"text":"你再聽訊,我聽訊最多。好,謝謝。我們蔡易瑜、蘇議長請發言。黃國昭總召集準備。好,我第二次發言。那,我想我要強調的就是說,我們現在行使的法律是立法院行為行使法第45條第三項。調查委員會的名稱、事項、目的、方法、成員人數由院會議決。"},{"start":5473.996,"end":5483.825,"text":"所以就表示說你這個名稱、調查事項、目的、方法、成員人數都必須要用會議決。所以必須在這一個法案裡面,這一個議決案裡面,大家的事情講清楚。"},{"start":5487.39,"end":5503.68,"text":"要不然這件事情所以絕對不是一個我要成立國家發展基金不當調查委員會這樣就代表代表我這件事情講清楚因為我們要議決嘛議決的意思就是說法案的名稱大家講清楚然後大家來討論然後最後做出決定"},{"start":5504.54,"end":5513.551,"text":"然後這個憲判之第九號基本上也把這個都講得很清楚喔我們就看憲判之第九號的第五項他就講得很清楚我們這個議決的調查事項含範圍應該要具體明確這我剛才講過我就不要再追溯了"},{"start":5522.621,"end":5547.507,"text":"所以勒,你這個範圍沒有具體明確的話,聽一公,你現在對於被調查的機關,他就處在一個,到底要調查哪些?剛剛我們幹事長也有列舉,事實上國發基金所投資的項目非常的多,甚至很多公司是屬於天使投資,他是新創公司,他剛開始成立的時候,國家推他一把,這個未必,"},{"start":5548.967,"end":5570.358,"text":"他未必有到賺錢他可能早期是虧損的那也有很多投資事實上是賺錢的所以事實上這個國發會在於前兩次協商的時候都表達不能說國發基金的投資是賺錢的就代表他一定沒有弊案但是也不能說他是虧損的就代表他一定是弊案"},{"start":5571.258,"end":5596.536,"text":"所以這個國家基金這個意思就是說你這個範圍你沒有工程車那你到底要調查什麼那我現在再來講關鍵的下面的一個文字我們這一次宣判是第九號第五段的第四項講得很清楚就立法院行使行為行使法第四十五條你要發動調查權你成立調查委員會的時候經過其他憲法機關主張"},{"start":5598.677,"end":5619.811,"text":"有逾越憲法上的權限表達反對國發會有表達反對自生權限爭議的時候相關憲法機關應盡可能協商解決所以院長應該要跟國發會這邊應該要有一個協商跟行政院或者是國發會應該有一個協商解決或尋其他適當憲法途徑處理"},{"start":5621.292,"end":5630.397,"text":"如果沒有做這樣的一個處理的話協商未果那基本上最後一行我就不用全唸立法院尚不得盡為調查權之行使立法院不得"},{"start":5635.683,"end":5653.654,"text":"竟為調查權之行使。我想這文字都講得很清楚所以我看到民眾黨國民黨批判這一個大法官解釋講很久了啦那重點是文字就長在這你們都不就憲判制的內容文字大家來做有效的討論"},{"start":5654.835,"end":5673.351,"text":"你們還在堅持說我就是要調查國發基金啊國發基金的不當調查哇範圍到底是怎樣我們從頭到尾我都一直強調到底範圍是哪些項目你可以說好我就是要調查爐心啊我要調查聯合再生就在我們的決議案裡面要寫清楚啊"},{"start":5674.071,"end":5703.271,"text":"因為這是未來要議決的啊所以再讓我再讓我補充啦齁如果我們這種調查是這種齁安捏齁都漫無目的的齁然後就是說什麼都可以調查然後如果大家跳出來說喔我想要調查政黨的政治現金不當使用或者是非法使用或者是非法移轉到私人那如果我們只成立這個那有個人跳出來說欸我要因為有這樣的一個調查委員會我就要調查目可"},{"start":5704.171,"end":5721.13,"text":"可以這樣嗎?不可以因為一開始沒有講清楚嘛因為你就成立了一個調查委員會你指的是這個政黨不當那就包山包海不可以這樣應該一開始就講清楚我們是要調查哪一件政治現金不當使用"},{"start":5722.492,"end":5729.24,"text":"哪一件的政治獻金,它的核銷有問題,講清楚哪一件。我不能就審理一件,我保守我保害,我跟他講,木殼拿來問,以後有哪一家的,我再拿來問,可以這樣嗎?不可以。"},{"start":5738.762,"end":5767.35,"text":"謝謝蔡宇書記長的第三輪發言接下來請黃國昌總召第三輪發言謝謝喔我想民進黨啊那個蔡議委員把他們的意思又重複的再講了一次我們大家都聆聽到了嘛那憲判制的判決大家都會去看嘛我們就按照條文按照判決該怎麼走就怎麼走嘛等到成立了以後我們的行政院認為有問題因為其實我們的大法官也是煞費苦心啊"},{"start":5768.448,"end":5797.003,"text":"幫我們立法院的調查權啊設下了重重關卡真的是重重關卡那沒有關係大法官非常的體貼幫我們的行政部門設下了重重關卡立法院不要輕易的啟動調查權白紙黑字我們大家都看到啊白紙黑字都看到嘛那行政院到時候有意見沒有關係啊就按照大法官的指示嘛"},{"start":5799.198,"end":5824.373,"text":"有爭議的時候就按照爭議處理程序來進行嘛那看到時候台灣每一個公民啊大家都有眼睛都有耳朵大家心裡都有一把尺台灣就是一個民主社會大家心裡有一把尺嘛每一個機關每一個委員所展現的態度"},{"start":5825.598,"end":5845.654,"text":"所抱持的政治立場自己要負政治責任跟整個社會負責任台灣民眾黨黨團我們提了這個案子如果社會認為不應該成立如果社會認為我們成立這個調查委員會是所謂的包山包海漫無目的"},{"start":5846.909,"end":5867.439,"text":"那社會當然會懲罰我們嘛但我要說的是什麼你說包三包還漫無目的沒有啊我認為我跟特定的議案範圍我會處理得很明確啊啊如果到時候你覺得不明確沒有辦法處理那就看行政部門要怎麼做就怎麼做嘛"},{"start":5871.448,"end":5894.586,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召接下來請國民黨團第三人發言之後我要做處理請傅坤祺總召發言謝謝院長因為這個問題從上一次的朝野協商就討論到這一次所以因為我們每一次的朝野協商都非常的冗長而且一直在圍繞同樣的議題"},{"start":5897.85,"end":5924.221,"text":"所以剛剛本席為什麼說院長很辛苦院長也說自己受氣包受氣最多事實上也是如此再接著下來為什麼我會提到說早上九點就開始協商因為未來碰到這樣不斷的事情一個案子要協商在朝野協商是經過了多少過程一個提案出來要經過"},{"start":5925.902,"end":5953.068,"text":"委員會之前的一個連署再送到議事處再經過程序委員會再經過院會的復議院會通過以後再經過復議期才到委員會來排委員會討論之後可能一次可能幾次不曉得出委員會以後再到委員會的協商然後再到院會的協商"},{"start":5954.284,"end":5982.196,"text":"我們很多的法案都要這樣走雖然2016年蘇嘉全院長已經表示委員會的協商一次或者院會的協商一次就可以交給院會來處理但是我們在這一屆立委任內不管是院長的態度也好還是在野黨的態度我們都尊重執政黨盡可能"},{"start":5983.618,"end":6006.839,"text":"沒有遵照2016年蘇嘉全立法院長的決議院會的決議我們的盡可能做的法案先經過委員會的初委員會之後還要經過委員會的各政黨協商才到院長主持的朝野協商我們一定要把這些先續名我們是經過很完整的"},{"start":6008.072,"end":6029.765,"text":"程序才到院長的協商到院長的協商如果我們還要找到委員會所有的事再來講一次兩次三次那真的是我們要上廁所的上廁所真的要出去呼吸監控器的因為我們都不曉得同樣的事情聽了這麼多次還要再聽嗎我已經很不想再講話了但是"},{"start":6030.93,"end":6055.26,"text":"我走過就留下痕跡所以我們這個身為國民黨國會最大黨我們還是很尊重的把一些過去的發言我們現在的調查報告講一下我先講監察院的審查報告本席宣讀一下"},{"start":6057.373,"end":6085.441,"text":"對國發基金．連續虧損至投資事業．為落實評估檢討．及適時研擬處置措施．影響基金管理效能．狀況非常嚴重。再過來對於已經沒有財政目的．政策意義．或已經偏離投資目的．"},{"start":6087.498,"end":6115.893,"text":"這些事業也沒有落實退場機制這些監察委員全部是民進黨提名的監察委員所作出的監察報告對國發基金的抨擊是非常的嚴重再過來監察院的審計部我們再念一下國會預算中心所作出的報告"},{"start":6118.582,"end":6144.428,"text":"產業創新轉型基金它的部分投資發生了公司治理欠佳或是公司已經面臨解散相關的情勢但是沒有加強監督也沒有事實研擬退場的方案再過來一百一十二年度這個是最嚴重的有逾半數的直接投資事業呈現虧損"},{"start":6147.506,"end":6173.124,"text":"而且其中的事業有連續虧損三年以上或者損失超過十億這都是民脂民膏本席為什麼提到一百一十二年度我們所有四大基金啊四大基金啊都看得到民間的投資基金啊投信啊都在發大財啊"},{"start":6175.54,"end":6203.29,"text":"都在賺大錢啊這個國發基金竟然還在虧損還預半數以上的投資是虧損不可思議啊再過來創業投資事業啊計畫向在營運中之創業投資事業近三成平均投資報酬率為負數這老百姓的錢再過來"},{"start":6206.772,"end":6224.422,"text":"創業天使投資方案一百一十二年度它的資訊力未達五成且部分的投資事業辦理減資什麼叫減資虧損連連的公司要減資或辦理解散解散是什麼意思公司倒閉"},{"start":6226.212,"end":6254.531,"text":"這是我們國會的預算中心所做的評估難道國發基金不應該來好好調查嗎再過來對不起總共留下痕跡現在中華民國的大總管潘孟安先生在立法院過去的發言國發基金是來自於人民的血汗錢但是如果用途沒有規範"},{"start":6256.789,"end":6285.274,"text":"就變成大開方便之門還居然沒有任何的法律規範潘孟安當時他講本席認為其其不可國家發展基金的運用必須要明文的條例化當然了國會的大總管我們敬愛的柯老柯總召說"},{"start":6287.642,"end":6316.223,"text":"政府應該扮演管理的角色不應該辦理投資的角色這就嚴重了國家基金怎麼可以辦理投資的角色我們現在討論的都是國家基金錯誤的投資而且虧損連連超過半數再過來未來國家基金如果還要從事投資行為這些投資行為中可以最後演變成官商勾結的溫床柯總召表達的"},{"start":6317.492,"end":6345.005,"text":"行政院開發基金從民國六十幾年成立至今形成一個官商勾結的產物把國家的錢套出去對於國發基金的設計方面未來我們應該要把國發基金廢除就算要存在也不能扮演紓困的角色"},{"start":6346.246,"end":6371.293,"text":"哇 這個柯總召這個親近律例啊已經講得這麼清楚加上立法院的這個預算中心還有監察院的報告最後要提醒大家我們不是立法院一天到晚在成立全院調查委員會我們真的很汗顏的講從十一屆立法院開議到今天"},{"start":6372.318,"end":6393.071,"text":"我們到底成立了幾個立法院的院會調查委員會很抱歉一個都沒有一個都沒有所以一個連結的政府是國會該做的監督的責任如果到今天為止"},{"start":6394.383,"end":6422.556,"text":"一個全院的調查委員會都還沒有成立表示這一屆的立法委員真的在野黨對不起全國人民的託付我想積極的來辦理這個相關的連立法院預算中心都認為弊案重重監察院認為有調查的必要我們應該要即刻的來成立未來就是在協商的過程中如果我們的協商一直一而不絕的話"},{"start":6424.11,"end":6431.094,"text":"那真的可能以後早上九點就可以開會了齁那萬一再不行就早上六點鐘來開會好不好謝謝沒關係我是想要做一下因為我跟各位黨團幹部報告一下齁讓我先講講話謝謝請把門關閉上一次"},{"start":6447.748,"end":6474.824,"text":"蔡宜瑜書記長問我,要不要繼續溝通,我說要繼續溝通。所以今天我們才排的繼續溝通這個案子,我想來龍去脈。上次也非常感謝我們國發的高副主委也報告過了,行政部門的意見我們也聽到了。所以今天我們才會有這個繼續來就這個案子來協商。因此我們在上禮拜五我們沒有處理這個案子,就是因為尊重各黨團,希望大家意見再把它呈現出來。"},{"start":6475.805,"end":6496.516,"text":"但是如果一直發言下去的話我想我們不能不做處理不能不做處理那因為你四輪發言其他兩個黨團我要遵循一下剛才主席已經講說會做會議處理謝謝主席才是請尊重主席好不好"},{"start":6497.91,"end":6500.331,"text":"我想從頭到尾不是說不能夠去成立什麼調查委員會去調查。民進黨的國會改革版本裡面也有調查權。"},{"start":6520.56,"end":6537.227,"text":"也有只是說你的調查的程序應當把法治完備再來好第二個我講到現在我沒有聽到提案的人對於你要調查的明確的範圍是哪幾家公司"},{"start":6537.967,"end":6563.142,"text":"我們在說的是一個範圍不明確的調查請問你要調查誰今天我們要成立一個國家發展基金不當投資的調查委員會提案人講不清楚他到底要調查誰如果你要調查如馨如馨現在有訴訟中的案件立法院是不能調查如果你要調查聯合再生現在監察院在調查所以院長"},{"start":6565.203,"end":6568.826,"text":"今天要成立調查委員會你要調查誰啊講清楚嘛調查誰還是你要調查木可公司呢我可以因為我要收政治獻金法我就漫無目的地要去查政黨的政治獻金嗎所以範圍是誰院長這個問題沒有回答你現在已經不是會議詢問這是第四的十字發言"},{"start":6586.903,"end":6603.942,"text":"因為我對於議案的主體的詢問啊對於議案的主體的詢問請問提案人你要調查國發基金誰好 謝謝各位黨團幹部顯然我們一直都沒辦法產生共識那我們第二個今天寫上題目"},{"start":6605.543,"end":6627.374,"text":"這個國家發展基金這個調查委員會我們就依議事規定處理講不清楚要調查誰我們現在進入要第三案講不清楚要調查誰那個院長我可以會議詢問嗎稍微等一下我要提醒各位黨團幹部務必要告訴各位委員這個禮拜五只有上午開會很多委員習慣下午簽到所以他下午還是沒有辦法簽到請各位提醒各位黨團的委員們"},{"start":6629.375,"end":6640.349,"text":"禮拜五上午 院會只有開半天一定要在上午完成簽到這一點很重要我們現在休息之後我們就來進行下面選罷法的討論 好嗎好 休息"},{"start":7210.237,"end":7223.843,"text":"好來各位黨團幹部請坐來來來謝謝謝謝我們再次歡迎內政部劉部長中選會李主委再次歡迎再次歡迎謝謝我們行政部門上一次已經我們先進入第三個今天的討論事項"},{"start":7228.24,"end":7241.949,"text":"關於公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案,上一次我們已經聽過行政部門意見,各位黨團幹部也交換過意見。請問今天就這個議題,大家有沒有其他寶貴意見要發言?好,請吳斯亞幹事長請發言。謝謝院長。"},{"start":7246.472,"end":7264.611,"text":"我想這個每一次的協商都是一個對話都是一個溝通都是每一個議案要在院會處理前的最後對話的機會所以請所有的黨邊我們承擔的責任就是要在任何議案"},{"start":7265.672,"end":7281.065,"text":"表決前我們盡可能的匯聚共識這就是朝野協商的功能所以王金平院長前幾天說的話很好政治無他耐煩而已呀政治無他耐煩而已呀"},{"start":7282.059,"end":7296.595,"text":"很多話（很多議案的立場（很多條文邏輯不通（很多條文閹割民權（很多條文（恐怕（會有傷及其他憲政機關的權利（"},{"start":7298.337,"end":7321.906,"text":"或者是很多議案可能過當的衍生了立法院享有的職權這些東西都應當好好來論述我不希望在討論議案的時候大家都覺得不耐煩、不想聽我認為這不是從政者把耳朵打開願意對話開誠布公應當有的態度對於選罷法"},{"start":7327.574,"end":7354.047,"text":"我想民進黨的立場．不管是聯署加嚴加密．這個都是．設下了門檻．設下了難關．來剝奪人民行使罷免權利．這些我們也都論述很多．社會的撻伐也非常的．強大．不要說是我們說不完的．我們也說得很完的．"},{"start":7357.905,"end":7386.935,"text":"這是說有人就是掩耳盜鈴就是說不聽我要再跟院長也要想要請示一下現在的選罷法此時此刻在協商的是聯署加嚴加密的版本另外在內政委員會今天要排案的是另外一個條文有關於投票門檻我想請求院長今天上午就發生了"},{"start":7390.342,"end":7402.545,"text":"主席、交委他進入會場議事工房大家都司空見慣但是如果要進行議程也應當是使用"},{"start":7404.571,"end":7427.238,"text":"我們所有會議室裡頭．的直播．或者是擴音系統．今天發生的是．昭偉他企圖要．帶著議事人員在他旁邊宣讀議程．使用的是國民黨團自己帶進來的麥克風．這就沒有辦法直播出去．"},{"start":7428.567,"end":7452.536,"text":"那事實上,院長不也是從這個上個會期開始就非常的三聲武令所有的黨團不要攜帶麥克風進入任何的議事場域嗎?可是不管是今天的內政委員會或是上上週在財政委員會審查財化法的時候"},{"start":7453.669,"end":7481.053,"text":"都有國民黨的委員拿著自己自備的黨團的麥克風或者是委員個別的麥克風進場這個是一定要再制止的這院長您已經制止過很多次但是還繼續發聲那現在回到這個本題所以今天院長處理的是加嚴加密的版本那民進黨的立場就是非常清楚"},{"start":7482.236,"end":7506.948,"text":"沒收人民權利的這樣子的修法我們都沒有辦法來支持而且如果以過去的大法官499號的解釋任何的涉及事項也就是你要在選報法裡頭立法院透過修法對於涉及事項可能做出自肥的"},{"start":7508.035,"end":7533.896,"text":"或者是利益該迴避而沒迴避的都應當由下一屆開始施行。涉及事項絕對不應當是當屆就開始因為我們當選立法委員連任立法委員不管是新任或連任我們的任期從2024到2028我們都是跟人民簽訂了四年的契約"},{"start":7535.317,"end":7560.02,"text":"這四年的契約就包括所有的選舉罷免的遊戲規則這都是這四年間我們跟選民定下的契約所以大法官釋字四九九號曾經對於國民大會要提高他的報酬或待遇然後自己來修正要提高大法官就已經很清楚的說"},{"start":7561.693,"end":7574.58,"text":"任何的涉及事務都要遵守利益迴避的原則所以同理如果要提高罷免的難度保護了現在這一屆的立法委員們這就是應當回到下個屆期才能夠施行的這個原則否則我們又違憲了"},{"start":7587.014,"end":7615.204,"text":"所以呢麻煩在場的在野黨的委員們政治無他耐煩而已在場有我們的內政部劉世芳部長中選會李敬勇主委站在主管機關行政部門的立場也都多次的說明行政部門反對選罷法的修法反對增加罷免的難度"},{"start":7616.84,"end":7627.503,"text":"大家都一再的論述只是在野黨的委員蒙起了耳朵不聽就是不聽所以不好意思不要以為我們這麼喜歡來講同樣的話"},{"start":7632.925,"end":7646.936,"text":"這都是人民的聲音只是在野黨的委員非常遺憾你們拒絕傾聽如此而已所以希望這樣子的議案沒有共識不要進行去用會處理啊"},{"start":7647.917,"end":7670.492,"text":"這是立法院這一屆要交出來的立法成績單嗎?就是閹割了民權。這是我們這一屆的立委要對社會我們交代得起的嗎?再次發言,抱歉,耐煩而已。如果不耐煩,不要當黨鞭。謝謝吳思瑤幹事長的發言。接下來請林思銘書記長發言。台灣民眾黨團請準備。"},{"start":7674.031,"end":7689.125,"text":"我想這個罷免這一題今天談的是加嚴的版本這個版本我們開了好多次的協商會議其實我們還是要很慎重的跟全國的民眾來說明為什麼要立這個法"},{"start":7690.421,"end":7713.022,"text":"我想我們加嚴的版本我們一再強調這個沒有不是沒收民主這個沒有違反民主就是讓我們身份證的影印本在聯署的程序中要提出並且加註登記日期我想這樣的一個做法其實真正的去體現民主的真諦"},{"start":7714.483,"end":7728.588,"text":"因為我們現在看到這些連署書很多都是冒名連署連死人都可以被冒名連署還有很多偽造的所以這是民主嗎這絕對不是民主"},{"start":7729.768,"end":7742.873,"text":"所以我們認為說提出這樣的一個修正版本甚至於吳秉瑞民進黨的吳秉瑞委員都有相關相同的一個版本啊所以民進黨委員很多人連署怎麼現在你們會認為說這個叫沒收民主讓你們過去呢"},{"start":7746.434,"end":7774.442,"text":"那你們認為過去你們不是沒收民主嗎?所以這個論述我覺得我們不能接受沒有所謂沒收民主這樣的一個假設性的議題存在其實我們現在反而認為民進黨你們到底為什麼怕選拔法這樣的一個修法?你們在怕什麼?你們是準備大罷免嗎?所以你一直在阻擋選拔法加嚴加密的版本通過"},{"start":7775.868,"end":7794.496,"text":"你們是準備要這樣做嗎?你們是要整個讓我們這個民主社會台灣民主社會在明年度再度造成我們社會的動盪不安嗎?我是真的是這個要告訴民進黨的委員我們要做對的事啊"},{"start":7795.296,"end":7813.853,"text":"我們國家要發展正確的一個路徑如果利用這種大罷免來造成我們國家社會動盪不安造成我們國家公帑的浪費如果沒有的話我真的不曉得你們在怕什麼為什麼不讓因為今天談的是加嚴版本"},{"start":7815.218,"end":7839.723,"text":"連這個版本你們都不願意讓他通過還一陣子講說我們沒收民主我真的不曉得你們的利潤基礎在哪裡啊過去你們要這樣做現在你們說不行這麼雙標所以真的要鄭重的告訴國人民進黨過去就是支持這樣的版本以上 謝謝謝謝林世民書記長接下來請台灣民眾黨團請發言"},{"start":7844.921,"end":7863.195,"text":"這個議題基本上今天也不是第一次協商了那台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們也多次的跟社會說明了那當然是要傾聽人民的聲音嘛所以我們今天早上也特地開了記者會公佈了台灣民眾黨黨團我們自己做民調的結果"},{"start":7864.603,"end":7881.689,"text":"當然有人要質疑我們的民調我們也虛心接受但我們做這個民調基本上就是希望知道社會大眾怎麼想每一個政黨為自己政黨的立場負責任當然是請聽人民的聲音這一點問題通通都沒有"},{"start":7884.19,"end":7905.82,"text":"那第二個事情是說剛剛提到在這個主題的時候又提到延伸去提到說有關於在議場內秩序上面的問題那議場上面秩序的問題我是覺得啦如果要針對這些相關的事情做處理的話那看要不要院長再另外找個時間"},{"start":7907.541,"end":7929.201,"text":"來做處理因為現在好像是因為我們那個每一個會議室裝的都是喇叭鎖喇叭鎖不用透過暴力的方式就可以把它打開嗎那如果是在這樣的解釋之下似乎也沒有什麼違法的問題嗎那當然我只是反映一種"},{"start":7931.104,"end":7950.042,"text":"看法而已並不代表這個是真的因為我覺得立法院裡面的規矩到底是什麼可能還是由立法院這邊大家看透過一個什麼樣的民主程序把它說清楚那你總不可能有一些事情永遠都是說那別人做可以"},{"start":7952.233,"end":7965.753,"text":"別人做不行我做可以這樣子我覺得也不好啦因為現在就變成了是說像我開會的時候門沒開門沒開我就乖乖的在外面等啊等議事人員來開門我再進去啊"},{"start":7968.072,"end":7982.262,"text":"還是我們現在立法院是有個規矩是你自己有能力開你就把門打開這樣是沒有關係的這個可能也可能要拜託院長幫我們大家裁示一下因為你總要有一個基本的規則嘛"},{"start":7983.857,"end":8010.702,"text":"那這個規則我們要的也就是一個公平的規則嘛那這個公平的規則是會議室的門只要我有這個技能或者是我帶什麼樣的人來可以處理這樣的事情就這樣子處理那還是說有什麼樣其他的指示是不是也可以請院長讓大家知道嘛那要不然的話我每次我很早來我也是都乖乖的等議事人員來開門啊"},{"start":8012.902,"end":8038.229,"text":"那還是說我如果可以的話以後是想開我就自己開就進來了。這個基本的規則是不是也可以請院長來幫我們大家做個採視。謝謝。好,跟各位黨團幹部報告一下今天早上已經責成州務秘書長關於各會議室的門鎖的情況我們要開始要進行如何來處理這一點。第二個就是各委員會的問政還是由那一個黨團能夠來個約束一下黨團成員。"},{"start":8042.11,"end":8070.194,"text":"老師聽到不同委員會都不同爆發當然正常的公防論辯大家都是能接受的如果過當的話可能對立法院整體來說並不是一件非常好的事情這點要請各位黨團幹部無論如何要拜託約束一下所有黨團的委員們能夠理性問政那關於這第一輪的發言選拔法上一次不及我會再好"},{"start":8077.48,"end":8080.102,"text":"不會,我要請二輪發言,我們那個"},{"start":8087.335,"end":8105.624,"text":"等一下,我跟各位黨團幹部解釋,謝謝王維,你手先放下來,剛剛那個行政部門上次說明,已經說明過了,所以劉部長、李主委還有司法院跟法務部代表非常感謝,參事都已經發言過了,我們今天就,我們讓我們黨團幹部進入二輪的討論,我特別要跟兩位部長報告一下。"},{"start":8107.011,"end":8130.03,"text":"要不要再補充意見請劉部長報告院長我比較沒有補充意見我只是有一點不清楚現在院長您所主持的那個選罷法的這個條文修正在進入那個各個黨團協商的時候是哪幾個條文因為在同時間在內政委員會那個徐欣盈召委她也要做選罷法的修正的部分所以我們會"},{"start":8130.871,"end":8146.287,"text":"不是很清楚現在講的那些條文是不是要所有的條文一併討論還是說會有做一下不同的篩選就是在會議上面我們會有點那個準備會來不及或是說來不及做比較好的論辯那請那個院長才示一下"},{"start":8158.214,"end":8187.33,"text":"是,但是那個跟院長報告因為今天早上啊我們到內政委員會去的時候是徐欣盈召委的那在我們發的這個開會通知單是寫公職人員選罷法的部分條文修正草案那這個是指上次的那個院長所主持的部分那不涉及到今天在內政委員會所主持的其他的條文的部分那這樣子我們才會比較清楚要怎麼樣回應部長現在就在您手上我們就是沿上一次的會議到現在"},{"start":8188.8,"end":8212.746,"text":"就加嚴加密的這一份跟今天早上內政委會開的不是同一個版本請參考李主委請發言謝謝院長、各黨團的幹部中選會就今天朝野協商的這個版本最主要都是針對加嚴的部分包括要付身份證正反的原本要註明這個發證的日期等等"},{"start":8213.286,"end":8239.622,"text":"那這些都是對於罷免權的一個限制那基於罷免權是憲法所保障的公民的參政權我們認為啦就是說必須要非常的謹慎那就現行的制度來講的話在執行上並沒有任何自愛之處也因此呢我們認為說不宜在這個時候來做變更以上再次的報告好謝謝李主委的再一次的說明非常感謝"},{"start":8250.763,"end":8262.23,"text":"關於我們這個這一次我們選拔法這個修正的這個有沒有大家還有沒有其他寶貴的意見要發言我們現在請王宏威請國民黨團二輪發言蔡易瑜幹事長請準備好謝謝謝謝院長"},{"start":8269.738,"end":8271.22,"text":"謝謝院長我想今天我們進入的是我們選罷法的修正案我想必須要做一個證明"},{"start":8284.878,"end":8302.366,"text":"他不是一個加嚴加密的版本他是一個落實查核的版本所以我想這個部分呢何先續名那至於就說因為剛才啊就說因為有提到一些我們在議事上面啊就是大家是不是要有一些規範然後呢其實怎麼樣讓議事能夠順利的進行"},{"start":8307.268,"end":8313.07,"text":"那包含呢就是我剛也聽到這吳思瑤幹事長指責說今天呢在我們的這個內政委員會的時候有自帶麥克風的狀況那我想要說明一下就是因為呢在我們財委會的時候發生了我們這個會議室裡面的麥克風被砸碎砸爛而且甚至還傷及到這吳思瑤這個幹事長"},{"start":8336.098,"end":8343.539,"text":"所以我們基於保護我們今天參與的委員大家還是有人身安全的問題所以跟大家報告至於未來要不要做一些規範我想尊重院長最後的才是但是我也特別要提到其實在今天的內政委員會的狀況"},{"start":8363.263,"end":8376.67,"text":"是我們的召委、我們的主席根本沒有辦法坐上主席台這已經不是第一次發生了所以如果我們今天談到相關的議事規則、議事程序"},{"start":8379.131,"end":8406.947,"text":"不讓主席坐上主席臺連宣告開會都不准請問一下到底哪一個比較嚴重所以如果我們今天未來要對我們立法院裡面的議事做一些規範希望各黨團能遵守我想請問自帶麥克風根本不准主席坐上主席臺來宣布開會到底是哪一個比較嚴重"},{"start":8408.729,"end":8413.414,"text":"那更不要說其實今天也發生了又是類似的案例就是今天我知道啦其實民進黨團呢為了要杯葛議事的進行也很辛苦聽說呢四點半那麼就開始在做整個的假動 總動員"},{"start":8428.379,"end":8432.621,"text":"那我覺得其實過去我們國民黨團也有這樣在我們正式開會之前我們也做假動但是國民黨團會遵守一個最基本最基本的一個原則我們會等到議事人員開門我們會在外面在等到議事人員開門我們還沒有不管他喇叭鎖什麼鎖我們是一個尊重嘛"},{"start":8456.687,"end":8465.349,"text":"哪裡有說半夜去開門的然後或者是說喇叭鎖很容易就去開門我也不知道也許這個民進黨團的成員都身懷絕技很會開鎖是不是習慣開鎖這個是我們比較不習慣的事情啊因為即便是喇叭鎖有時候我們覺得這就是一個這個立法院我們的一個最基本我們應該遵守的嘛所以"},{"start":8486.041,"end":8502.137,"text":"如果作賊喊作賊然後強盜要報警那到底怎麼會變成惡人先告狀呢我不理解但是呢既然告狀的話那麼剛才院長也有才事啊秘書長會未來針對喇叭鎖的部分我想不只喇叭鎖因為有的還被破壞"},{"start":8507.422,"end":8507.742,"text":"中文字幕 李慧琼"},{"start":8524.873,"end":8528.095,"text":"所以就是有關於我們這些相關的我們的紀律的問題如果大家要一起來討論的話那就一起來討論啊所以我覺得這是必須要跟大家來報告的那另外就是我還是講到就是說有關於我們選罷法的部分那我們其實來經過協商大家各抒己見但是請保持一定的尊重啊"},{"start":8555.41,"end":8559.938,"text":"其實剛才我們那個黃總召也有提到就是說他們今天早上也召開了記者會他們也公佈了他們的報告我講的我們不是民意代表嗎民意代表嗎"},{"start":8569.113,"end":8577.743,"text":"如果包含在之前這個羅志強委員他所主持的民調或者是這個今天民眾黨所主持的民調在民意的反應上對於罷免相關的規定大家確實覺得有做調整跟有做檢討的"},{"start":8589.156,"end":8603.414,"text":"必要那麼我們今天去反映民意不代表我們去剝奪什麼公民權利人民的權利所以我們還是尊重民意終究我們是民意代表而不是黨意代表以上謝謝"},{"start":8604.615,"end":8632.566,"text":"謝謝王宏威首席副市長發言在參與蘇議長發言之前我想針對吳世耀委員跟黃國昌委員兩位所提的我這邊做一次宣告我們一個組一個次我們來從組到次來跟大家來宣布一下一、有關各委員會會議室的次序再一次要拜託各黨團幹部能夠約束黨團委員成員能夠理性問政維持會議次序這是組次就是針對"},{"start":8633.746,"end":8646.06,"text":"我們今天又發生這個事情已經上次財委會所發生的這些事情我們要再次宣告針對麥克風立法院議場安全維護及管理要點第七點規定會議的時候委員不得攜帶麥克風這是針對院會的議場"},{"start":8650.205,"end":8671.838,"text":"不過對於委員會會議室的次序我們會尊重各委員會的召委的處理如果大家能夠秉持理性的問證沒有破壞麥克風也沒有佔據主席他的行為那一切我們就委託召委來裁示使用幕僚單位所提供的麥克風這一點我再重申一遍一個組一個次"},{"start":8673.419,"end":8698.926,"text":"那在院會的時候如果需要跟每個委員會再來宣布的時候我會試機來提出那接下來請蔡益渝蘇議長請發言我想剛剛院長只宣告院會不能用麥克風但是委員會的麥克風狀況是更嚴重的這個第一個要講然後第二個我想我們應該還原整個立法院朝野的工坊在二零"},{"start":8701.991,"end":8723.365,"text":"2019年9月5月9號當時立法院內政委員會在排審公投法那個公投法的修正草案呢就是說他為了讓公投連署不必附上國民身份證的影本這是當時國民黨的主張就是在公投連署的時候不要附上身份證影本那在國民黨呢"},{"start":8725.646,"end":8738.532,"text":"黨團繼我直接念這個新聞出來繼昨日暫已議事癱瘓一天後今日清晨五點姚昌進入會議室這個姚昌的人應該是我們副院長江啟臣副院長姚昌"},{"start":8739.757,"end":8763.179,"text":"姚昌進入會議室．再度成功占領主席臺這是在清晨五點那我們副院長也在臉書PO出照片他說捍衛民權不能懶公投修法反獨裁所以他是在當時認為附上身分證影本就是沒有捍衛民權就是公投修法就是造成了會獨裁的一個效果"},{"start":8764.8,"end":8783.351,"text":"所以在當時江啟臣副院長事實上他們就是在五點利用搖窗的方式佔領主席台那民進黨議員在上午七時陸續進入會議室這在二零一九年的狀況那在二零一五年勒二零一五年的時候一月五號勒當時齁這一個這個是在議場的狀況下午二十"},{"start":8789.855,"end":8810.907,"text":"五十二分立法院長蘇嘉全宣布散會後那國民黨立委他跟議場內的時代力量委員當時應該是時代力量的主席徐永敏號召那黃國昌委員事實上在當時也有參與他們五人持螺絲起子、保溫杯破壞議場門栓以及防破玻璃後以大鎖鐵鍊將門鎖鎖上形同志求"},{"start":8819.457,"end":8822.93,"text":"所以我現在在說的就是說這個都是議事工房的歷史嘛"},{"start":8824.055,"end":8831.836,"text":"就是說會有這個議事攻防那主要這個議事攻防的目的是什麼在當年國民黨他在做這樣議事攻防他在五點搖窗進入議場也是進到議場裡面他就是為了不要讓公投法修二在當年時代力量也有他們對於勞基法的一些訴求所以他們也是希望他們去佔領了議場都會有這樣的攻防今天民進黨我們之所以要在內政委員會我們提早我們四點半"},{"start":8852.68,"end":8857.143,"text":"我們就來到這裡讓我們進到了裡面我們也是避免這個選辦法被修二那我想要跟院長反映的就是說事實上我們現在陷入一個很矛盾的一個狀況因為我們在這個時候朝野協商正在主持我們連署加嚴我們連署要附上身份證的影本這個我們這個認為這個弊病很多這個不用再贅述了啦齁但是我們同時在內政委員會勒卻有在處理另外一案我們看到比較嚴重的"},{"start":8881.897,"end":8906.495,"text":"大概是那一個罷免的同意票要大於當選的票數那個無疑是讓未來罷免要成功的機會變得非常的困難所以我們認為這兩個效果基本上都會都一樣會造成剝奪人民的一個罷免權但是欸現在有一個重點喔如果我們今天院長你沒有要把這案你今天在財事繼續討論的話我們有可能禮拜五就要先處理這一案"},{"start":8910.868,"end":8926.165,"text":"有可能禮拜五這一案要進入二讀三讀但是在內政委員會卻還有一案選罷法那一樣是會造成剝奪人民的罷免權所以是基本上我覺得既然國民黨都要排案然後"},{"start":8926.866,"end":8939.532,"text":"委員會在排現在朝野協商也有一個選罷法那我們為什麼不要在整個程序完備最後一起審理的時候我們再來處理選罷法我們再來院長你再來召開協商說因為現在有不同的版本的疊加我要跟院長講的就是說基本上用身份證會造成罷免提案的困難你用這個當選的得票數這個一樣會造成困難疊加起來又變更困難"},{"start":8955.28,"end":8968.694,"text":"所以我認為這兩個不能把它拆開處理我不知道這個拆開處理勒是國民黨還是民眾黨的想法還是怎樣但是我們早上也有看到像蔓玉珍委員她有舉著牌子嘛她說贊成反對反對"},{"start":8973.291,"end":8976.676,"text":"反對門檻加高嘛阿如果他要反對門檻加高的話是不是未來我覺得這個要合併討論而不是我們現在先討論一項然後這一項可能在禮拜五的時候就被表決然後這一案就結束了那未來又跑出一個門檻加高"},{"start":8990.387,"end":9003.774,"text":"這兩個把它拆開處理我認為是不公平的,對人民不公平因為他必須要一併處理就是說到底怎麼做是一個合理的罷免制度那這個罷免制度讓人民還是有辦法行使罷免權同時"},{"start":9005.515,"end":9010.619,"text":"這個罷免制度也不會造成了所謂濫刑罷免就是說民進黨未來會不會說有去發動罷免誰我覺得這些事情都是政黨政治政黨說我們去罷免誰那後來造成了很多民怨造成大家覺得勞民傷財民進黨就要承擔這個責任政治責任"},{"start":9026.653,"end":9029.778,"text":"但是你不能說這個制度嚴格到人民還沒有行使的時候你就跟他說不可以我把門檻加高你那裡根本沒辦法成案根本沒有辦法行使罷免權好 謝謝"},{"start":9041.547,"end":9066.914,"text":"那個謝謝蔡宇書記長的發言張宏祿委員跟徐宇貞委員我知道你們舉手要發言稍待一下蔡宇宇委員民眾黨團做了二次發言等一下請國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨也做二次發言但是在中間我卡一段話剛剛已經宣告開會的理性問政之外還有一個非常重要的大家試想一下昨天我們立法院邀請行政院長來報告追加預算"},{"start":9068.103,"end":9092.696,"text":"大家想想看立法院現場的畫面全場到最後沒有委員在我們立法院請行政院長來專案報告大家代表很慎重行政院長也帶了財政部長也帶了主計長來很正規來報告然後我們一個委員都沒有只有質詢的委員所以我要再一次拜託黨團幹部你們回去一定要派出輪值委員實在是太難看了我實在不想講"},{"start":9094.212,"end":9120.99,"text":"搞到最後一個陳永康委員一個王振旭委員我還特別去謝謝他們謝謝你們兩位老人家歸貨二仙你們千萬不能離開啊這個畫面能看嗎好不好所以拜託拜託尤其在審查法條要三讀二讀二讀三讀的時候一個委員都沒有每一次我實在是不好意思講就是王振旭老人家坐那裡我真的是太感謝他了不然的話就空成記啦"},{"start":9122.369,"end":9146.548,"text":"你們都有不分區的委員你去其他輪值嘛這個一樣政黨比例二二一嘛這一定要有硬性規定嗎?真的不好看啊好不好拜託好現在接下來請台灣民眾黨團跟國民黨二輪發言請請兩位等一下好請我們再選辦法你不要走心了請台灣民眾黨我在看著你啊"},{"start":9151.129,"end":9153.23,"text":"謝謝院長 謝謝院長 謝謝大家對於國民黨要提修正的那個提高罷免門檻我們本黨也多次 多次 很多次我們的主席在的時候已經有這講了就是明確表態不支持商修罷免門檻我今天我們也開了記者會我也到現場"},{"start":9176.056,"end":9177.377,"text":"所以要跟你們說明我們反對所以呢本黨認為就是公職人員的選罷法連署就是泛濫經常淪為就是抄莊角還有黨員名當抄大賽"},{"start":9191.247,"end":9192.828,"text":"所以呢,罷免成為政黨的仇恨動員的工具的狀況啦。就是因嚴肅面對,我們希望,就是要連署,要嚴慎,罷免是淘汰不適當的官員,對不對?"},{"start":9208.479,"end":9210.001,"text":"現在捲成就是政黨動員的工具所以呢媒體提到就是罷免的時代顯示目前台灣的環境淪為就是你不支持不喜歡這個議案我就罷免你"},{"start":9225.037,"end":9227.599,"text":"這樣子的仇恨就是每個人都會被都有這個機會被罷免所以我們為什麼要說上次我們柯總召有講說我們這個是憲法保護我們的公民權"},{"start":9239.705,"end":9242.247,"text":"所以我也講得很清楚公民權就是我們要選舉的權利我們罷免的權利同樣的很重要所以都要身份證這樣才是對選舉的人也公平嘛齁好不容易選上你一票一票你要對這個人的這個票要"},{"start":9259.079,"end":9263.064,"text":"支持你的人也要負責任啊對不對所以我們希望就不要為了這件事情今天一晚一黑晚黑今天是今天的事情不要遲到早上的我們今天是這個案我們支持我們支持就是說我們"},{"start":9278.722,"end":9303.471,"text":"罷免聯署要眨眼這個部分我們支持提高是早上的事情我們不支持我們講得很清楚了拜託民進黨不要怕說表決我們是不是要怎麼樣去支持國民黨我們從我們主席在的時候也是這樣子的表態到現在百分之百沒有變好不好謝謝"},{"start":9305.553,"end":9314.401,"text":"謝謝麥議政委員發言接下來請國民黨團發言然後張宏祿跟徐宇政委員兩位委員請準備好請國民黨團不發言好謝謝我們請國民黨團不是國民黨團請二次發言二次發言請"},{"start":9329.07,"end":9331.811,"text":"我要再次說一次就是其實我們不管是在今天我們所協調的在有關於去把何時能夠去這個落實查核的版本或者是現在在排進內政委員會的然後我們希望能夠追求票票等值不要成為少數去罷免多數的一個狀況"},{"start":9356.704,"end":9382.207,"text":"其實我們都是橫諸現在民意的一個規項。剛才比如說我們蔡議員委員他也提到比如過去當時在公投法的時候身份證引本他說當時國民黨有反對這是基本的事實我不會去做反駁但是我們也曾經提過就是有關於在選罷法的修正理念"},{"start":9383.268,"end":9386.312,"text":"在之前 比如說像包涵、吳秉瑞還有蔡易瑜、蓋世長他們共同提案的版本共同提案的版本事實上應該是在四月的時候他們提案但後來他們在測案了我們也予以尊重"},{"start":9402.773,"end":9418.807,"text":"對,你的部分,你是有提案啊,就是這,沒有什麼,但是有那個,就是那個,對,沒有錯啊,但是你有沒有版本,有嘛,我們不要去爭議,我們只要這種客觀的事實,所以也就是說,即便是委員自己提案,"},{"start":9419.568,"end":9422.989,"text":"在短短不到從四月到現在了不起半年嘛那事項測案的時間更早他可能都很著我不知道是你的來自於選民的壓力或者來自於政黨的壓力我都尊重你也有測案嘛所以呢也就是說不管是委員的個人或者是政黨"},{"start":9440.394,"end":9458.114,"text":"對於選罷．對於選罷法的修正．或者對於罷免制度的調整．我們本來就是．隨現在的民意．大家的想法我們而做調整．尤其在這一次．尤其在這一次基隆市長．也就是謝國良市長罷免之後．我們確實．"},{"start":9461.778,"end":9467.282,"text":"受到很多的民眾的反應覺得這樣子的一個動不動就罷免一個市長他上任一年多沒有任何的什麼錯誤的一個重大的錯誤那只是因為一個什麼東岸商場我們講了好幾百遍了東岸商場在法律面"},{"start":9482.27,"end":9484.195,"text":"基隆市政府完全站得住腳那從此就因為東岸商場的一個處理就開始發動整個的罷免的狀況"},{"start":9492.352,"end":9495.875,"text":"那麼你也可以想到這樣的罷免對於一個市長來說他其實要分審而沒有辦法專注在市政所以在謝國良市長罷免之後我們真的確實接到很多很多的民眾的反應需要這樣勞民傷財嗎需要這樣製造社會的對立嗎需要這樣去撕裂社會嗎"},{"start":9517.939,"end":9528.285,"text":"罷免需要這麼腐爛嗎?所以我剛才也特別講我們現在看到的最近的有關於針對罷免的民意調查比如說啦剛才麥玉珍委員特別提到就是有關於我們在現在排入內政委員會的版本那麼其實民眾黨已經不止一次的"},{"start":9542.333,"end":9544.476,"text":"對外宣布說他們並不支持這個案子我想各政黨我們尊重可是我們今天比如說也看到民眾黨他們所提出來的他們的這個民調我想今天他花錢做民調他犯不著幫你國民黨做這個民調吧"},{"start":9559.793,"end":9561.655,"text":"所以就是說：比如說我們落實查核版本：在這個那個版本裏面：他們：對不起我有點忘記了：他們有60：超過60%的民眾：認為是同意的：但是即使在民眾黨不同意"},{"start":9576.889,"end":9586.435,"text":"不同意就是在最後的罷免票你要比他的當選票多一張起碼多一張這個民眾黨不同意但是他們做出來的民調的結果也有超過五成的人是支持的我想我剛才知道今天他們開了記者會我們之前也沒有拜託民眾黨幫我們做一個這個民調來支持我們一下我們完全不知道他剛才不講我們完全不知道"},{"start":9603.14,"end":9619.043,"text":"所以也就是說我們現在最近看到的民調的版本至少我們看到確實民眾對於無止無盡或者莫名其妙或者是這樣子氾濫的罷免感受到這樣其實已經厭煩了其實也認為不應該過於氾濫所以我們提出這樣子的相關修法那我要特別講到的就是說"},{"start":9631.687,"end":9647.735,"text":"委員有提案權政黨也有提案權我沒有辦法接受的剛才比如說我們民進黨的幹部說今天為什麼要霸佔主席台呢因為我們怕修惡所以你覺得這個法不應該修的時候你就合理化你去強佔主席台嗎可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":9660.919,"end":9665.983,"text":"如果今天任何一個政黨都因為我覺得你這樣的說法不對、不好我根本不給你開會黃論、討論不是說沒有討論沒有民主嗎?不是說要討論嗎?委員中心之啊委員會要討論啊其實包含我們今天這個直接進步二度然後我們現在拿來大家在協商的版本"},{"start":9690.461,"end":9712.619,"text":"也是兩次在內政委員會開會的時候民進黨團強佔主席台啊兩次都是這樣子啊我們都是要來排討論啊不給討論不給開會所以我完全沒有辦法接受因為我們怕羞辱怕羞辱是你們說的啊民意不是這樣子講啊"},{"start":9713.92,"end":9730.156,"text":"怎麼樣?你們大於民意嗎?然後就不給開會還可以這樣子理直氣壯然後這樣講覺得合理化這樣子罷免主席台的行為我覺得岐岐以為不可啊所以在這邊還是我覺得我們今天經過我們各政黨大家各抒己見"},{"start":9735.982,"end":9749.415,"text":"然後真的我們應該回歸到意識該怎麼處理就怎麼處理以上謝謝接下來張宏祿委員發言徐議政委員請準備拜託掌握一下時間謝謝好謝謝謝謝院長其實剛剛大家一直在講2019年的時候副院長的那個事件其實那時候我就是內政委員會的召委"},{"start":9759.344,"end":9782.154,"text":"那我一直覺得我對這個選罷法要提高加嚴加密或者是這個同意的這個票數要多我覺得其實都可以討論但我覺得就是都沒有理性的去討論我覺得這才是最重要的那時候2019的時候後來"},{"start":9785.496,"end":9795.6,"text":"我也認為說也不用強去這個為什麼呢?院長你用身份證影印本其實是最落伍的方式了"},{"start":9796.57,"end":9812.082,"text":"因為有個資外洩有什麼的以台灣我們為了要達到這個目的我們其實有其他的方法可以來做啊並不一定是要身份證影印本啊比如說有的是提出用身份證的發證日期對不對"},{"start":9815.985,"end":9844.132,"text":"或者有很多的我跟你講你去看銀行他為了審查你的資料他有很多種方法也不用你提供身份證的影印本我們銀行都可以做到這邊我們在一個立法為什麼要用最落伍的方式我覺得這點是要討論的不要這個立法出來被人家笑這也是立法院立法的品質所以我那時候我覺得說這個是真的需要"},{"start":9844.952,"end":9870.815,"text":"要討論同樣的今天我也是剛好也是內政的召委我也認為這個東西不是不可以討論但我其實我反對用這種最落伍的方式我們去看銀行去看什麼其實有很多種方式我們都可以去討論的那另外這一個案子跟今天在內政委員會這個後來沒有審的案子其實都一樣是選罷法"},{"start":9872.156,"end":9890.653,"text":"那其實兩個是有相關聯的那我個人也覺得啦這個時間還來得及啦也沒急迫到這樣啦我覺得都可以兩個可以合在一起並在一起好好去討論這是我今天要跟院長您報告的我覺得應該是要這樣啦"},{"start":9893.186,"end":9915.151,"text":"我們今天草野協商開會到現在最斯文的發言就是我們張宏祿委員謝謝我們請徐宇辰委員謝謝主席我應該會是更斯文的發言我想剛剛那個這次我會提出這個就是也要繳交身份證影本的這個連署的部分主要就是因為其實現在連署的這些錯假連署然後超明冊"},{"start":9916.111,"end":9933.702,"text":"死亡連署的這個狀況非常的嚴重我來念一段文字給大家聽就是罷免案出現上千份的死亡連署顯見出現有心人士持大量個人資料假冒提議連署且隱含的假冒份數恐為死亡連署的數倍以上"},{"start":9934.402,"end":9954.382,"text":"雖然經互證系統查對﹐可以刪除亡者聯署的畸形聯署書﹐但卻無法比對查核未死亡的冒名聯署的狀況。這段話我非常的認同那這段文字是吳秉瑞委員跟蔡義偉委員他們共提的一個案子上面的一個提案說明"},{"start":9955.683,"end":9970.874,"text":"那當然他這個提案是指說要求罷免聯署人須填寫身份證的換發日期那為什麼有這樣這個提案雖然他現在測案他在四月三號提案現在測案這最重要不就是覺得死亡聯署的問題非常的嚴重所以才提出這樣的案子"},{"start":9971.855,"end":9991.597,"text":"還有包括一些在上一屆有一些委員就是針對公投法他們也認為公投法這樣這個錯假聯署、操民社聯署的狀況非常的嚴重所以也提出了包括這個蘇巧惠跟王美惠委員提出這個公投法的修正草案他們也是要求聯署人要附國民身份證的正反面影本"},{"start":9992.518,"end":9999.204,"text":"當時吳斯堯委員也有聯署那所以說我認為以這樣子一個狀況你說剛剛這個張璐委員說這個是一個落伍的做法可是實際上民進黨的委員也都同意那而且我們最近就有一個這樣做聯署就是在去年的這個總統選舉的時候有獨立參選人郭台銘他們需要聯署這個附身份證影本"},{"start":10016.96,"end":10020.745,"text":"當時大概有超過百萬的聯署當時民進黨怎麼沒有講這是落伍的做法為什麼還是要做這樣的聯署而且這百萬的聯署當時也沒有人提到說有資安的問題當時中選會內政部都沒有提出有資安的問題"},{"start":10034.182,"end":10052.433,"text":"所以我認為目前的這個剛剛所提到的這些其實都不是我們的目的是剛剛這個中選會李主委有講到選舉罷免是重要的公民權所以一定要很嚴謹所以我們的目的是希望能夠嚴謹那所以我的這個提案是希望能夠附上身份證的影本謝謝許議長委員發言那顯然"},{"start":10055.835,"end":10070.252,"text":"這個今天各三個黨團所討論沒有辦法達成共識那我們再次謝謝內政部劉部長、中選會的李竺偉還有司法院法務部列席的代表,非常感謝大家那沒有共識,我們剩下就依議事規則來處理,好不好現在蔡偉學長,我們就散會"},{"start":10076.926,"end":10089.937,"text":"不是不是,這個是要做成議事記錄的發言好嗎?你們不要就是等到了院長說可以議事程序處理就是可以表決了,然後大家就保護好看看,大家就要走。這樣協商我們就是過水而已啊。那院長請問一下,那現在鬧雙胞的選罷法怎麼分割處理呢?鬧雙胞的選罷法怎麼分割處理嗎?怎麼分割處理呢?"},{"start":10105.166,"end":10121.417,"text":"所以院長我覺得這樣子的協商不能把選辦法拆開啦怎麼怎麼是院長我再一次覺得你們都是過水而已耶都是過水而已耶院長協商不可以這樣只是過水而已耶你們連署是一個門檻罷免也是一個門檻罷免的門檻那是叠加應該要一起討論沒有共識就是要繼續討論啊"},{"start":10135.852,"end":10136.618,"text":"這都你們劇本寫好了嗎?"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024112044","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"16287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16287","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eabae2c6269a10f1bfce1f9dc46489d241b104c5adbfed68f72c1d33302b4d14fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp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國民黨怕罷免!不要偷偷摸摸!反對沒收文明罷免權!不要搞過水!徐欣盈不要偷偷摸摸!"},{"start":2028.841,"end":2029.65,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":2049.486,"end":2055.855,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案"},{"start":2098.22,"end":2112.829,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2120.885,"end":2127.509,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案"},{"start":2151.466,"end":2153.468,"text":"有名的有名的有名的"},{"start":2160.547,"end":2178.733,"text":"案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。 案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2186.716,"end":2194.261,"text":"案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2214.23,"end":2216.591,"text":"公民黨罷免!"},{"start":2216.591,"end":2217.791,"text":"公民黨罷免!"},{"start":2244.991,"end":2251.618,"text":"案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2279.881,"end":2284.026,"text":"王宏威愛照領王宏威愛照領"},{"start":2308.482,"end":2310.385,"text":"案。 招搖威 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公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2976.673,"end":2996.126,"text":"我們黨不要沒收人民報名權我們黨不要沒收人民報名權不要違法宣讀沒收人民報名權我們黨不要違法宣讀沒收人民報名權不要違法宣讀沒收人民報名權"},{"start":3000.449,"end":3025.542,"text":"文明黨不要違法宣讀!莫說文明罷免權!不要違法宣讀!不要偷偷選辦法!不要偷偷選辦法!文明黨不要違法宣讀!不要偷偷選辦法!不要偷偷選辦法!民眾優先不要違法!不要莫說文明罷免權!"},{"start":3027.777,"end":3035.487,"text":"審查委員楊曜等23人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等23人擬具"},{"start":3048.15,"end":3055.673,"text":"違法宣讀違法宣讀違法宣讀違法宣讀違法宣讀違法宣讀"},{"start":3073.163,"end":3074.264,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3104.844,"end":3105.465,"text":"回憶無相喔!"},{"start":3122.336,"end":3134,"text":"徐欣盈偷偷摸摸會議無效違法宣讀會議無效不要偷渡選罷法國民黨這麼害怕選罷法這麼怕罷免國民黨違法宣讀會議無效國民黨怕什麼"},{"start":3145.363,"end":3172.371,"text":"國民黨怕罷免違法宣讀、偷渡選罷法違法宣讀、偷渡選罷法會議無效不要這麼怕罷免國民黨不要搞偷渡徐欣盈不要搞偷渡違法宣讀林切祺請站在人民這一邊林切祺請站在人民這一邊不要違法宣讀"},{"start":3175.65,"end":3193.24,"text":"違法簽署會議無效!為什麼?為什麼這麼怕罷免?要沒收人民的權益!為什麼?不要害怕罷免!不要沒收罷免!國民黨搞脫度!國民黨搞脫度!國民黨搞罷免搞脫度!國民黨搞脫度選罷法!"},{"start":4242.374,"end":4242.395,"text":"案。"},{"start":6388.758,"end":6388.779,"text":"案。"},{"start":13392.157,"end":13392.178,"text":"案。"},{"start":18093.451,"end":18093.471,"text":"案。"},{"start":19406.028,"end":19406.048,"text":"案。"},{"start":26297.517,"end":26297.537,"text":"案。"},{"start":27083.399,"end":27083.42,"text":"案。"},{"start":28288.195,"end":28288.216,"text":"案。"}]}},{"id":"16286","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16286","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddbae2c6269a10f1bf6c0396a52a667796b104c5adbfed68f7963318da0569fb615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金－民航事業作業基金分預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預算。\n【本日僅進行詢答】【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-20T08:31:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T13:30:00+08:00","duration":17924,"影片長度":"04:58:44","委員發言時間":"08:31:16 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謝謝部長 接續報告之前補充介紹我們李昆哲委員現在在現場好 請民航局"},{"start":2104.109,"end":2125.551,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生我首先先就如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象的飛航安全跟人力配置及包含如何來落實地面勤務的安全規範來先進行報告、敬請委員指教那有關這個顯著危害天氣現象的飛航安全的作業跟這個人力的配置部分"},{"start":2126.412,"end":2137.461,"text":"民航局為了確保飛航安全也參酌了國際規範在民用航空法訂定了相關的不良天候下的作業規範航空公司也會依據這個作業規範來訂定航機派遣準則來執行飛航作業民航局在今年5月份"},{"start":2144.447,"end":2159.08,"text":"這個颱風季節來臨前就要求了國際航空公司要進行相關的整備跟因應那在7月整個颱風盛行期間又再次發函要求航空公司應該要依照不兩天後的飛航管制作業來保守前排來確保安全"},{"start":2159.881,"end":2173.977,"text":"那針對整個不良天候今年的一個情形的飛航的情形呢那我們民航局也在11月份邀集了航空公司進行了相關檢討跟精進強化那以下就再進行說明相關的一個作業"},{"start":2174.898,"end":2198.036,"text":"第一個在有關參酌國際訂定不良天候的部分那在我們民用航空法的第41條有這個民用航空器的管理規則的第32條跟207條規定那在這個不良天候的情況下的飛航那航空公司就應該要遵守我們有訂定的一個飛航的作業規定那在整個公司在做簽派作業的時候也要依據這個"},{"start":2200.237,"end":2229.217,"text":"飛航這個飛航作業管理規則的第177條跟178條來進行那簽派前應該要評估這個所要飛的目的地機場以及備降站機場的天氣條件那包含了雲目高、能見度、風向、風速以及包含要遵守整個機場的流量管制最重要的還是要考慮到各個機型的一個飛機的性能規範跟它安全攜帶的油量還有包含組員的一個飛時的限度的相關規定"},{"start":2230.357,"end":2252.348,"text":"那在落實整個執行的簽派作業的部分那航空公司其實在引進新機隊的時候他就需要依據這個飛航作業管理規則的各機型原廠的操作手冊的規定按各機型的起飛降落操作的性能規範還有包含天氣的條件以及機場的限制來建立這個機型的一個簽派準則"},{"start":2253.669,"end":2273.231,"text":"那在每一天所要派飛這個飛機前呢那就會依據所掌握的天氣狀況跟遷派部門也要去考量剛剛所提到的目的地機場天氣條件還有機場特性等因素來評估這些航班是不是要提早或延後或取消那如果確定這個航班要派飛的話"},{"start":2274.252,"end":2296.001,"text":"那也要提供駕駛員飛航所需的相關資料,包含貼器資訊,還有包含這個飛航公告NOTAM等相關資料那如果起飛後,如果遇有緊急特殊狀況的話那由遷派部門依據這個公司的手冊規定提供機場包括飛航中你任何要改變這個飛航計畫的一個相關資訊"},{"start":2297.401,"end":2313.331,"text":"那在整個顯著這個危害天氣下飛航安全的一個精進作為首先就分為兩個部分第一個部分就是會去督我們在這個落實不良天候的派遣的飛航派遣的事前的整備"},{"start":2314.452,"end":2332.842,"text":"在這個事前準備就是我們剛剛講的我們在5月跟7月有發函第一個就是要求航空公司一定要特別在颱風來臨前要密切注意整個天氣的資訊然後依循安全管理系統的機制下來執行相關風險的評估在可接受的風險等級下審慎規劃這個落實保守簽判"},{"start":2336.784,"end":2348.117,"text":"二、航空公司在平時就要落實主源於亂流、風切、濕滑跑道、低能見度、雷暴雨等不良天候狀況警覺決策,緊急應變各項訓練,加強航機務檢查"},{"start":2355.493,"end":2377.02,"text":"在提升牽派與飛行作業的整備部分就是要加強對航機的駕駛員提示相關的一些即時資訊便要注意航班吊派的因應然後在空中待命的時間不得超過其待命油量所應對的航行時間來增加整個應變的油量"},{"start":2377.66,"end":2395.542,"text":"那在特別在颱風過後也要特別留意相關的簽派因為不良天候它導致的這個機場流量的管制作業或者是相關的停機位等等或者是相關直飛時預兆有不預期的天候都要納入整個簽派的考量"},{"start":2396.638,"end":2416.418,"text":"那我們在整個剛剛提到的11月13號邀請航空公司來進行相關的檢討就是如何再來優化整個簽派跟進進的作業那第一個就是航空公司在召開這個防颱會議掌握整個颱風的預報應該要依據颱風的一個當時的情形跟特性的發展"},{"start":2417.219,"end":2441.508,"text":"的一個趨勢將氣象預報的側風、陣風數值等納入各機型牽派的參考作為整個公司的一個風險決策然後也要在航空公司要依據颱風的動態影響的區域跟機場的範圍、機場預報的風速值的差異以及航班飛航異動的情形要事前提早來安排滯空機轉降"},{"start":2443.443,"end":2451.574,"text":"或調度航機的延後起飛最重要的是簽派單位要主動協助載空機駕駛員提供及時的氣象及包含各機場重飛情況及轉降資訊供駕駛員參考"},{"start":2460.806,"end":2481.047,"text":"在增訂整個不良天候的一個遷派考量也要求業者應該要規劃兩個目的地的備降機場其中一個不得在颱風的影響範圍內然後務必來落實攜帶足夠的應變油量對於目的地的機場跟機坪停止作業、空調安全的風速限制也要應該納入考量"},{"start":2482.895,"end":2499.105,"text":"第5個部分就是因為在11月中旬還是有相關的颱風所以我們民航局也在11月15號有依據民用航空法第57條發函要求華航長榮新宇要落實一個保守簽派的作業那整個"},{"start":2500.646,"end":2528.868,"text":"在民航局的一個飛航檢查的人力的配置部分基本上我們都是參照國際民航組織來設置相關的專業的檢察員那來確保我們整個監理的能量那到今年10月底我們整個航機務試航初始針對這個航機務的部分大概有67位那會依據這個民用航空運輸業跟普通航空業還有訓練機構的機型機隊還有公司的一個專業人力的規模指派專任的航機務"},{"start":2529.909,"end":2530.109,"text":"中華航空局局長"},{"start":2548.83,"end":2567.681,"text":"這檢查員來擴充整個核心的公務檢查人力透過這樣的人才的培育來培養我們的一個儲備主管人才那在約聘檢查人力我們也每年有兩次的招聘然後視情況會來辦理招聘作業的次數然後來採取相關的招聘以進行人力的顯補"},{"start":2569.985,"end":2588.464,"text":"第二大部分就是有關落實地面勤務的安全規範整個我們地面勤務的安全管理機制也是參照國際規定來進行相關的法規的訂定所以我們有訂定了航空站的地勤業、人員、裝備、注意等相關的"},{"start":2589.645,"end":2604.602,"text":"作業事項那也會參考國際民航組織的這個Document來訂定相關航空站的空測作業管理手冊然後供各個機場訂定空測的作業程序來管理空測地面作業安全那在整個"},{"start":2605.723,"end":2625.661,"text":"安全機場跟地勤業者的一個安全管理部分那是參照國際民航組織的這個Document 9859訂定航空站的地勤安全管理的系統綱要計畫然後推動各個機場跟桃勤、長勤等三大地勤業者的一個安全管理的一個系統機制那透過於相關資訊的"},{"start":2631.247,"end":2647.302,"text":"提出相關的強化作為那在落實整個業者的自我安全部分那在基品作業地勤業者會分為就是說第一線的要求就是每日實施基品檢查這是一級查核那在公司總部也會進行二級的抽查那對相關的裝備等等都應該要相"},{"start":2649.904,"end":2676.9,"text":"依據相關的維護手冊來進行辦理那地勤作業單位每月會將相關的異常缺失會進行改善那由公司總部由高階主管來檢視各項安全作為那民航局對於相關這些地勤業者會每年定期實施相關的一個查核包含相關文件、作業機制等等那在2013年今年我們就對地勤業者加強了安全文化的宣導跟內化相關精進的風險評估來督導"},{"start":2679.341,"end":2701.71,"text":"相關這個有關他們查核的量能應該依據不同時段來調配然後也要業者要對自我檢查的缺失來進行統計分析那必要時民航局也會針對業者來進行實施專案查核那目前長期跟人情有關人力的裝備程序修訂等等民航局都在持續列管他的改善情形"},{"start":2703.117,"end":2729.529,"text":"那有關加長地勤作業安全的措施部分大概分以下列幾點來說明主要就是因為疫情初期其實有相關的地勤人數大概只有45004500個人那與疫情前相較大概減幅達到了12%那民航局也積極地檢視相關的機場的一個整備還有跑點他們的服務量能然後針對個別業者提出相關的建議"},{"start":2730.569,"end":2756.569,"text":"那截至到113年9月底我們地勤人力已經達到了6000人然後已經達到108年前的疫情水準那目前業者也仍在持續招募中那有關相關地勤的作業人員特別要求一定要列管要他們實施業務熟悉訓練也因為有將近有1000多的新進的地勤作業人員所以地勤業者在113年有辦理了"},{"start":2758.79,"end":2774.18,"text":"總共有619門的課程的訓練課程包含初附訓然後訓練也達到了43000人次那針對相關民航局也要求針對相關的地安事件或者是新的案例訓練教材等都要進行來相關實施特訓"},{"start":2775.02,"end":2784.53,"text":"那針對相關車輛的保養的部分或者是加速汰換我們也要求地勤業者務必來積極來辦理那目前來講113年業者已經增購了113輛的裝備車輛那預計114年會再增購157輛那我們也會基於安全的目的鼓勵業者來優先選用具有安全靠機功能的輔助裝備"},{"start":2798.837,"end":2826.587,"text":"那作業程序也是最重要的一環民航局也要求地勤公司在分析相關事件後應該進行相關SOP的一個檢討然後來降低調整人為裝備上的潛在風險例如有發現這個航機拖車易壓油漏易壓油洩漏之後我們有針對它的一個油路的檢查或者是相關的零件的一個更換年份的一個縮短包含透過不同期設來區分那也針對這個"},{"start":2827.927,"end":2828.207,"text":"提供各機場的安全規範"},{"start":2852.865,"end":2853.506,"text":"中華航空局局長"},{"start":2884.605,"end":2908.011,"text":"這個營運的航空站經營管理人就會對當事人就是對地勤的相關作業人員進行吊銷或吊扣駕照然後也包含通行證那相關的一個改善也會回報那對於如果有違規情節重大的話那就會報請民航局來進行移民用航空法來採取那第二部分就是相關風險的辨識就是航空站經營人"},{"start":2909.758,"end":2926.933,"text":"每個月會召開空測安全會議,針對空測的跑滑道、停機坪等等相關設施來進行危害的辨識然後也會制定相關預防的一個應對措施然後進行相關宣導那空測違規的一個地安事件如果辨識出那113年桃園機場就有針對操作人裝備的議題全面檢視空測程序針對高齡裝備的維護保養還有一些漏油等等"},{"start":2933.519,"end":2961.699,"text":"加強管理作為並修訂相關人員的作業跟操作跟保養程序那在整個機場來講航空站經營人跟地勤跟相關公民營進駐的單位其實要共同跨部門的合作形成一個整體的安全文化這也是我們安全管理系統裡面最追求的一個部分就是要共同來持續改善然後讓相關有效來降低這個跑道入侵或相關安全的風險"},{"start":2962.6,"end":2989.496,"text":"那所以說在面對整個這個顯著的危害天氣作業民航局也會來持續督導航空公司落實事前的整備然後嚴格督促業者要遵守相關的規範那對於各機場跟地勤的落實安全管理系統提升安全文化然後也會透過相關的法規對於違規者來進行相關的裁處那透過定期跟不定期的查核來落實相關"},{"start":2990.797,"end":3002.213,"text":"執行整體的風險降低那以上的一個報告 敬請各位委員指教那第二部分呢就針對我們民航局114年度的單位預算民航作業基金分預算來進行報告"},{"start":3004.61,"end":3023.663,"text":"整個報告的部分以下就以前年度還有包含114年度的施政計畫重點預算編列的情形跟預期的施政績效來提出簡要說明首先在112年的預算執行公務預算的部分執行有關稅務的部分大概4700萬執行率102"},{"start":3029.793,"end":3044.717,"text":"百分之一百零二那稅出預算執行的46億6千萬執行率是99.8那整個民航最基金的分預算的部分業務總收入的預算是115億2千萬那決算數是120億那執行率是104.4那業務總支出的部分是131億"},{"start":3055.88,"end":3080.485,"text":"預算數是131億那整個決算數是128億執行率是97%那整個來講是本期有短處7億元那主要是以上收支相抵的一個結果那至於113年10月底的一個預算執行情形呢那整個稅稅入預算數的部分截至10月底那整個分配數是4200萬那整個執行是"},{"start":3084.879,"end":3107.551,"text":"執行了103%那在整個稅出預算的部分截至10月底是4億5000萬元那佔整個執行數是3億9800萬佔整個分配數是88%那在民航作業基金分預算的部分業務總收入是到10月底預算的分配數是106億"},{"start":3110.345,"end":3115.631,"text":"執行數是110億佔整個預算分配數的104%那整個業務總支出的預算數139億那截至10月底執行了89億整個預算分配數執行了89億所以佔預算分配的95%那固定資產"},{"start":3130.529,"end":3144.73,"text":"建設改良擴充物的部分到10月底整個執行數是64億元那佔整個預算分配數的97%那有關明年度的114年度的一個整個施政計畫的重點"},{"start":3146.372,"end":3154.775,"text":"主要我們還會是積極來擴展整個國際航權考慮整個國家的整體利益跟航空公司的一個需求來跟相關國家來洽簽跟修訂雙邊通航協定那對於整個國際市場的一個脈動我們也會在整個"},{"start":3162.957,"end":3176.383,"text":"國際旅運市場穩定復甦的情形下來協助航空公司來提升運能供給然後進一步讓航空公司的航網來加密來加密全球的營運的航網那對於整個機場相關地形人力我們也會依據剛剛的報告來加強督導業者"},{"start":3179.204,"end":3202.339,"text":"然後來落實相關作業程序來強化相關的變動管理那對於整個桃園航空自由貿易港區來講我們預計在明年會完成整個桃園航空自由貿易港區的全區開發然後也來持續吸引指標業者來投資進駐來加速整個自貿港的一個發展那第二部分就是在飛安的部分"},{"start":3203.769,"end":3226.058,"text":"我們也會來強化整個安全資料的一個收集分析運用然後妥適的調配安全檢查人力跟資源來確保我們整個航空的一個營運那在於整個機場整個航空站跟運輸業者一個安全保安管理系統的部分我們也會要求各單位來落實然後對於整個"},{"start":3228.46,"end":3234.373,"text":"來台轉機的部分我們也會來推動一站式的保安來避免重複檢查來增加航空公司的營運"},{"start":3236.38,"end":3257.499,"text":"那在於整個空測認證的部分我們會督導各機場定期辦理跑道的安全會議研討來潛在的危害擬定經濟管理然後也會加時落實相關剛剛提到的安全文化等等然後對於整個相關助導航設備的一個韌性等等我們在明年會汰換這個跑道232 ILS系統還包含"},{"start":3261.109,"end":3290.104,"text":"我們會將整個航管的備援系統來擴充席位來增強功能然後也會因應未來年來增加的運量來提供相關的一個設備等等來確保整個飛航服務的韌性那在整個機場的布局的部分推動的部分那我們會持續來辦理2045年民用機場2045年的一個整體規劃來賦予各機場的定位來進行策略發展然後作為各機場的一個指導方針"},{"start":3291.044,"end":3308.661,"text":"那對於桃園機場的部分桃園航空城我們會跟續來辦理地上物的搬遷作業來相關安置配地點交等等那相關的機場的建設包含松山機場包含台中機場還有高雄機場、台東機場的跑滑道的整建"},{"start":3309.221,"end":3328.613,"text":"然後還有包含南甘機場等等還有北甘機場的相關的一個工程跑道的延長還有這個部分會來持續推動那至於機場的一個相關的航廈整建包含松山國際機場的耐震補強工程還有航力系統等等高雄機場的第一期建設"},{"start":3330.094,"end":3339.614,"text":"也包含了相關的防水工程等等至於四座離島我們會持續辦理相關的外觀風貌的改善工程"},{"start":3341.741,"end":3371.344,"text":"在臺中機場的部分我們也會來積極推動相關第三航廈的一些新建工程等等相關規劃那在第四部分就是有關淨零碳排的部分我們會持續Follow國際民航組織來推動相關的一個國際航空業的碳底換等等作業那也會持續推動機場的相關車輛、橋墊、橋器等的優化等節能減碳措施那至於整個智慧機場等等也要導入相關的一個新科技的"},{"start":3375.347,"end":3394.202,"text":"致於相關的一個航管的一個飛機離道場的優化程序等等我們會推動來這個這個PBN的這個相關的一個導航的一個措施然後也會來完成相關的一個航路的一個規劃然後能夠讓相關的離道場程序可以進一步的縮短"},{"start":3395.049,"end":3413.007,"text":"那有關相關設施的升級部分因為國際的空中全球的一個航行計畫裡面有持續在推動這個ASPU的一個部分那我們的相關的新一代也航管的管理系統我們也進行在規劃中那對於相關人力的培養等等我們也會來積極"},{"start":3415.269,"end":3415.389,"text":"進行專題報告．"},{"start":3438.775,"end":3463.689,"text":"培育包含這個航管的部分尤其重要所以包含航管、航電氣象等等的我們也會來積極招募然後對於新進在職人員來嚴謹的一個市值訓練那對於整個訓練的一個效能其實最重要的我們要發揮航訓所相關的一個訓練角色讓我們整個民航局的用人單位等等相關的訓練能夠達到用人一個"},{"start":3465.134,"end":3477.066,"text":"政向的發展然後也讓他們學用落差來說想那再來第三部分就要報告我們整個預算編列的情形整個單位預算的部分114年稅入預算編列總共是500"},{"start":3482.952,"end":3497.885,"text":"5400萬那較上年度增加了2%差不多2%那主要的整個來源就是罰款或者是賠償、規費、財產等其他收入那稅出的部分整個稅出預算編列了5億"},{"start":3499.941,"end":3502.422,"text":"有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長"},{"start":3522.489,"end":3531.455,"text":"收入114年整個總收入預算我們是編列了185億元左右然後上年度大概增加了38%點"},{"start":3536.189,"end":3556.402,"text":"主要整個就是因為整個運量的上升還有飛機過境的價值增加等等所以我們相關的收入也會跟著增加然後第二部分是業務總支出的部分整個總支出預算數編列了147億9千萬元那較上年度整個來講增加了6%"},{"start":3558.143,"end":3576.47,"text":"那主要的部分就是相關的一些基本工資的調漲或者是相關的一個部分工程完工轉列財產然後還有包含一些離島搭乘航空機往滿居民的增加所以有一些相關費用的折舊等等來支出增加那整個本期的剩餘來講114年預估來講大概"},{"start":3580.091,"end":3603.106,"text":"整個會叫剩餘的預算數是37億元會叫今年度短錯的5億6千萬大概增加了43億元那整個在固定資產建設改良擴充的部分呢那114年預算數是194億元那整個來講大概增加了增加了129%"},{"start":3607.169,"end":3617.154,"text":"109億元那其實主要呢就是因為是航空城的用地取得計畫我們在113年度是編列了1000已經編列了1094億元那114年依據續編145億元那高雄機場的等相關建設還有桃園機場等等各項建設其實也都有編列的相關經費請各位參閱"},{"start":3629.221,"end":3645.682,"text":"那整個施政的績效來講我們期待就是說我們透過整個相關預列跟施政的推動能夠持續增加透過航約的修訂增加我航空公司的一個靈活的一個空間讓他們可以依照需求來增加"},{"start":3646.243,"end":3673.431,"text":"航班也積極協助航空公司希望能夠來引進新機然後能夠調彈性調隊使用運能然後回應我們國內各機場各界的一個需求然後第三的部分就是剛剛提到的航空自由賣港區的新建開發我們希望能夠在明年度來完成那相關的一個保安還有包含航空器的一些汰換等等這一些我們都希望能夠來持續進行"},{"start":3675.051,"end":3687.776,"text":"那在整個安全的部分我們也會來持續推動那在整個航空情報轉型為這個相關這個是有關這個飛航情報區的相關情報的一個推動等等"},{"start":3689.13,"end":3689.33,"text":"好,謝謝何局長"},{"start":3718.23,"end":3737.8,"text":"市長你是報告是今天你也是早上才拿到的昨天有看過嗎不能稍微短一點精簡一點因為社會委員辦公室都有你們書面的一個詳細的報告我也拜託一下能夠精簡一下因為交通部你們有預估這個民航局不會誤點10分鐘"},{"start":3739.941,"end":3756.573,"text":"那今天已經到25分鐘了誤點率高達這個還蠻高的啦會差不多啦我想這樣的啦委員續部資料請委員參與好不好那謝謝何局長那接下來兩個單位拜託控制在5分鐘之內我們機場公司楊董事長"},{"start":3767.952,"end":3784.826,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生大家早安以下請就機場公司以前年度的預算執行情形跟114年度的業務計畫重點跟預算變略情況提出簡要的報告首先報告112年度的預算執行情形當年度的總收入是165.03億元支出的部分是145.99億元收支相抵之後淨利是19億"},{"start":3793.113,"end":3796.697,"text":"固定資產計畫執行情況155.65億元113年度到10月底為止執行情況總收入199.97億元總支出123.78億元固定資產計畫執行96.92億元接下來報告114年度業務計畫重點"},{"start":3815.154,"end":3838.708,"text":"114年度業務計畫是以成為國際的空運樞紐帶動航空產業發展為作為方針提升各項重大的機場建設進度並提供更多型化的機場服務來提升機場服務的品質並朝完善機場各項的建設打造優質跟好的設施跟服務推動綠色永續機場三個面向來努力首先簡單報告第一個面向的部分"},{"start":3839.648,"end":3851.883,"text":"完善機場的各項建設持續推動我們的第三航站區第三跑道建設計畫跟西側的污水處理廠的新建工程來提升服務的量能跟滿足未來的需求那目前在"},{"start":3854.163,"end":3878.574,"text":"這些工程的執行部分113年度已經完成了發電機的汰換114年度將持續提升電力、污水處理跟供水水網的改善來確保各項設施的運作無虞那第二個面向是打造優質的設施跟服務面向那113年度已經建置完成第一航廈的自助行李托運設備跟航廈裡面的電梯、電動坡道的升級那114年度我們將根據汰換"},{"start":3881.255,"end":3885.857,"text":"本公司將會串聯貨運資訊建立的整合平臺以增加航空貨運的效益並透過各項智慧化設施來優化我們的營運效能公司將會持續升級各項設備並提供優質服務"},{"start":3904.125,"end":3917.639,"text":"第三個部分是推動綠色機場永續服務落實公司的ESG永續發展之外會持續透過機場檢判檢排措施跟機場夥伴共同努力以實際行動來朝向綠色機場目標邁進110年度預算編列部分運量部分114年度預估旅客運服務量"},{"start":3927.829,"end":3942.876,"text":"會達到4723萬人士那航空機的部分是25萬5000人士營業的總收入因為量能的回升我們110年度編列242.15億較113年度預算增加了107.51億那增幅是79.84%支出的部分我們編列了166.94億較113年度預算增加了9.4億增幅是5.97億"},{"start":3955.782,"end":3971.099,"text":"那是因為我們收入提撥了機場的回饋金跟噪音防治費的增加另外我們的第三航廈北登基郎廳開始啟用相關的維運成本也會增加那扣除我們的所得稅15.04億之後稅後淨率預估是60.17億元會轉虧為盈"},{"start":3977.205,"end":3982.288,"text":"另外有關固定資產計畫我們編列了182.72億包括專案計畫的部分有162.37億那其中第三航站區的建設計畫編列了149.5億元第三跑道的建設計畫編列了11億元那西側污水處理廠的部分編列了2.87億元"},{"start":3995.777,"end":4019.865,"text":"在一般建築設備方面我們編列的預算是20.35億元當然是辦理機場各項設備的優化跟升級那最後一個結語本公司將持續擴大機場的營運量能攜手機場的服務大聯盟夥伴共同合作向國際標章機場的服務品質看齊並由各項建設計畫的推動帶動整體經濟的發展敬請各位委員支持並會試指教謝謝好 謝謝楊董事長"},{"start":4026.428,"end":4030.732,"text":"好接下來我們有請這個桃園公司是蕭總來做報告說明"},{"start":4041.594,"end":4059.748,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生早安桃園公司就如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範提出報告進行委員指教"},{"start":4061.466,"end":4078.536,"text":"桃園公司自創立以來自負盈虧目前員工約有2700人承擔國門地勤服務作業在近年地勤業者受人力成本增加的影響以及新進地勤業者競爭的"},{"start":4080.057,"end":4100.173,"text":"情況之下,桃園公司為了保持桃園國際機場地勤營運不受影響、免疫維持人力的安邊制,如新冠疫情期間航班數大減,嚴重影響了桃園公司的收入,但是仍然承擔著"},{"start":4102.674,"end":4131.659,"text":"口罩、防護衣、防疫物品等防疫物質的裝卸作業業務所產生的虧損皆由桃園公司自行承擔本公司往後能將繼續以安全服務為本陸力維護飛航安全提高服務品質為目標接下來報告有關於天氣現象的人力配置部分"},{"start":4134.716,"end":4152.786,"text":"檢討異常天候大規模班機異常人類變質背景說明基本上地勤公司是配合航空公司的運作為主桃園國際機場異常天候多為夏季的颱風以及季節交換時的大霧其中與颱風發生時影響時間較為長各航空公司會依照氣象的預報"},{"start":4163.393,"end":4191.513,"text":"提早開立這個防災應變的會議然後決定航班的一些異動那淘勤公司會根據各航空公司的一些航班異動做人力的配合全力配合這個機場的運作班表的基本安排淘勤公司的排班是以24小時輪班制然後根據"},{"start":4193.75,"end":4217.578,"text":"勞動基準法的規定每個員工每日加班不得超過4個小時每個月加班不得超過46個小時的原則來做於班表的安排在天候異常的時候人力的配置剛剛已經有提到過桃園機場必須配合桃機公司的政策以及航空公司的一些預排的"},{"start":4223.51,"end":4232.679,"text":"在不違反勞基法的規定下,盡力配合航空公司的班機運動安排人力以確保地勤作業的順利"},{"start":4234.184,"end":4255.496,"text":"相關的一些作業規範我們桃行公司有訂定根據國際民航組織以及民航局的相關規定有訂立一個防台防震實施系者作為我們的一個依據另外我們在人力配置部分會加強外部的溝通"},{"start":4257.079,"end":4284.954,"text":"因應颱風期間的航班異動本公司會配合桃機公司及各航空公司的颱風應變計畫結論進行人力的局部調整並主動提報各時段人力到班的狀況提供給桃機公司作為應變的參考行情異常通報的部分"},{"start":4286.414,"end":4293.215,"text":"提供給管理階層作為因應非預期航班異動的處理方面會根據實際的情況事先瞭解航班的異動然後"},{"start":4311.385,"end":4324.037,"text":"寫請同仁以延長加班的方式來補充人力的缺口確保地面作業不受影響另外為了提高"},{"start":4326.022,"end":4344.269,"text":"加班及到班的意願陶瓊公司針對颱風天服勤及加班的員工公司制定有用於限定現行法規的加班費跟補修的措施能提高員工的意願人力調度的基本原則"},{"start":4348.243,"end":4374.01,"text":"會隨時根據天候、狀況、滾動式檢討、SOP加強本公司跟其他單位的橫向溝通以先客機或候機的作業順序在天氣異常的狀況下會優先配置人力資源、客機的作業以確保旅客的權益第二點在針對強化地面勤務安全的規範"},{"start":4376.119,"end":4391.785,"text":"桃園公司依據IATA的地面作業手冊以及民航局的相關規定制定公司空測作業的規範SOP建立安全管理系統著重於空測安全之外同時也必須符合職業安全衛生的規範"},{"start":4393.166,"end":4422.332,"text":"航空局在地停期間都有多項的作業同時進行比如行李的裝載、貨物的裝載、加油、加餐等等所以必須要大家都能夠有相互的配合避免危險的發生航跡作業區域是屬於高風險的作業區域可能造成車輛的碰撞、航跡的損傷等這些都必須很嚴格的根據依照"},{"start":4423.396,"end":4448.789,"text":"作業規範實施作業的安全在作業安全部分剛剛有提到我們公司有建立安全管理系統收集各種風險的資料提供給第一線員工瞭解工作上的一些風險建立全員通報的系統並且獎勵同仁提報風險推動公正文化"},{"start":4450.182,"end":4475.852,"text":"第二點是加強即便的查核機制我們公司有要求一線作業單位自行本身要針對每日的作業進行查核再加上我們有一個企業安全處也會由非一線作業人員進行即便的安全的稽查以確保整個作業上的安全幹部也會隨時"},{"start":4478.226,"end":4503.545,"text":"進行走動式的管理隨時了解整個作業的狀況隨時提醒確保作業的安全第4點落實訓練公司會員工採取循序漸進的方式對於各種即便作業的機具的一些訓練做到精準確實的訓練以符合"},{"start":4505.506,"end":4519.631,"text":"訓練完畢之後也會進行各項的考核在完全考核之後才能夠操作實務的操作再來最近幾年我們有提"},{"start":4520.583,"end":4542.616,"text":"提高員工的薪資這是基於這個整個世界上在員工成本的提升也必須要提高公司的一個競爭的能力所以我們也針對員工的薪資部分也有做一些提高最後在就危害天氣現象的情況如何去做這個防範的工作"},{"start":4544.259,"end":4570.214,"text":"逃行公司預計IATA地形作業及民航局相關規定制定本公司內部作業程序以確保異常天候狀況下的安全作業比如颱風接近的時候當地面陣風達到警戒標準時我們公司的作管中心就會以無線電通報各作業單位加強安全防護措施比如空櫃加榜"},{"start":4571.363,"end":4597.162,"text":"拆櫃的時候的作業以及使用那個踢架時的安全另外也有加強其他根據桃機公司所提供的這個風速的資料也加強其他的安全措施比如說停放暫時停擺停放那個安全錐停止放置安全錐禁止使用踢架等等等"},{"start":4599.048,"end":4621.222,"text":"並依照颱風警報的情況成立防台應變小組開始依據各階段的執行航空空測防台作業及空橋加榜整理空櫃擺放位置等相關預防工作以確保同仁的所有的安全以上是桃園公司的簡報 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":4631.379,"end":4659.349,"text":"謝謝部長下次稍微統合一下因為其實每位委員其實想問的東西面向很多但只有本委員會也只有8分鐘大家稍微要把吸收一下好那我們現在進行合併詢答先宣告以下事項第一詢答時間初期委員6加2分鐘列舉委員4加1分鐘第二委員發言登記於10點30分前截止本委員會委員除外第三"},{"start":4660.129,"end":4675.976,"text":"各委員如有臨時提案請10點30分前提出以便議事人員會診第4暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午上原則上不休息現在就請登記第一位林國成委員發言好主席我現在提前提問題我還要拜託"},{"start":4688.393,"end":4698.239,"text":"我們主席一開始就要要求所有立會的官員在做報告的時候我們不是來聽朗讀"},{"start":4700.424,"end":4728.735,"text":"重點提示增加預算減劣預算你的特點還需要歷驗支持把重點報告有史以來委員會做報告沒有人這麼久的已經用掉我們50分鐘所以拜託我們主席雖然提醒不要那麼客氣該停就要停奇怪我們6分鐘一到你就趕快站起來"},{"start":4729.295,"end":4747.668,"text":"他們就講了老半天所以我如果時間超過請主席也見諒好不好來請陳部長民航局何局長我們桃集公司楊董董事長好那個航軍局的邱局長邱局長"},{"start":4759.326,"end":4787.081,"text":"好 部長我今天針對人力的問題來探討人力的問題來探討也就是現在我們一二航廈現在的人力到底夠不夠所以部長你針對這個各單位的人力配置以及現在我們一二航廈"},{"start":4789.246,"end":4796.499,"text":"的現在的狀況到底人力夠與不夠這看你了解與否"},{"start":4798.406,"end":4820.475,"text":"在航勤的部分我們會增加一些人力目前看起來的話一、二航廈楊董事長跟范總他們在經營的過程當中也有提過這個人力是比較吃緊一些目前他們也很希望可以再增加人力尤其最近整個航運的量一直在增加過去幾年疫情的過程當中確實有流失掉一些人才現在"},{"start":4822.055,"end":4837.122,"text":"航運量上升之後人沒有地補上來其實我覺得對於整體的服務品質也會稍微降低那我以為您所提供的這個資料看起來可能不只是淘氣公司可能連這個航空警察局的部分也應該有些缺額"},{"start":4837.842,"end":4863.436,"text":"所以我特別請邱大局長上來只是要提醒你為什麼會有公安的問題為什麼會有不明旅客可以到我們的機場裡面被摔死這個叫什麼這個當然警察局也有關係這個跟管理也有關係所以這個再再顯示一種第一"},{"start":4864.176,"end":4891.668,"text":"就是所有人員怠慢二、人力不足所造成所以我們固且不談責任但是我們要把一個問題我市長會跟部長提出比較率先的問題是因為一、二航廈已知行之有年那這個人員不足當然要盡快補我現在問題看的是第三航廈我們在三年耶"},{"start":4892.848,"end":4905.076,"text":"我們人員不足要修法耶我們到底要怎麼樣去規劃那這個部分我重點就是在商行下成立以後你們如何陸陸續續成立如何把人員補足"},{"start":4908.838,"end":4928.1,"text":"這是非常重要我們第三航廈做好了以後是世界規模裡面算還是國際有名的一個航廈欸所以你們有沒有未以籌謀事先規劃以及如何去應對這些東西啊要特別去注意來回來那個"},{"start":4929.221,"end":4955.195,"text":"再回來那一章我還沒講第三航廈的部分人力的增補的部分應該是在進行當中因為115年他就整體要正式來營運所以人力的部分其實目前都在規劃當中那是要漸進式的去補足的哪一個部分完成要補哪一個這個是要有規劃的楊董事長不是說我有在規劃你怎麼規劃呢要不要請楊董事長跟委員報告簡單齁"},{"start":4957.532,"end":4973.882,"text":"非常感謝委員的關心那目前我們只有不死第三航廈的這個規劃已經超前在規劃那今年度已經開始陸續在徵聘初步規劃提供給我們本委員會的委員知道好不好這人力的問題是非常重要的是"},{"start":4974.662,"end":5000.487,"text":"好不好那你需要部長支援你這個要牽涉到修法你不要以為你規劃出來只上當兵這個是牽涉到人員用的行政院要不要去支持行政院有沒有認同這是非常重要所以為什麼我現在就要提2027才會完工那我現在為什麼要提加上修法加上你們的規劃送一送行政院到立法院來"},{"start":5001.647,"end":5027.839,"text":"那剛好是三年欸不要臨時爆火腳所以我特別要提醒這些或許部長每一次我跟你提的都是創新的東西不是指責因為你是年輕的部長你要有未以從某的這種部長的做法到最後才有辦法去面對這整個三行下的人力的問題好 另外一點來 何局長我請問一下"},{"start":5031.158,"end":5056.523,"text":"本席在給你們調交通部民航局你們到底有沒有欠人在淘機的部分因為我們只有不要淘機我問你你的單位有沒有欠人目前來講我們的預算原額是有可是我們是進補好局長我不曉得立法委員給你調資料到底局長有沒有去控管為什麼我給你們調資料你們不給還有觀光署"},{"start":5062.759,"end":5077.088,"text":"我跟你講我們交通首屬的委員調你們的資料這麼簡單的資料也不是機密請問一下為什麼不給這個應該要提供給委員的阿為什麼不給跟委員再報告一下因為我們沒有進駐在桃機的人"},{"start":5078.214,"end":5097.882,"text":"我問你們的是交通部因為你們沒有進駐有在監督嘛你們人員不足還是會影響監督嘛人員跟員額這個都應該是公開資訊那也應該給委員沒有提供資訊對的我現在跟你講喔不提供的不提供的我已經講得很清楚是"},{"start":5098.422,"end":5117.056,"text":"原因如果沒有告訴我立法委員很簡單調的不是機密資料不是爭議的資料怎麼怎麼怎麼會不給呢?報告委員如果我們的題目是說進駐桃機制公務機關的缺額或許民航局沒有在那邊進駐不過也應該要說明清楚不能新聞給你們你們不給"},{"start":5119.958,"end":5139.732,"text":"要回啦一定要回我回去查清楚這個部分不要查清楚為什麼我調你們不給應該要給我是本委員會的委員跟交通有關更何況今天的議題是一樣的是需要這些人力來配置來幫你們講話為什麼不給應該要給這部分我們來檢討我跟你講"},{"start":5145.083,"end":5170.511,"text":"我對我無所謂我不希望你對我們所有委員是這種態度因為不是機密的東西講快一點你們本來就是要公布的當你們講話還被你們在那邊調戲這什麼東西啊這個我們會來檢討好不好柏中尤其你交通部首屬其他的部會我當然有其他部會的做法是是是好另外一個何局長"},{"start":5171.823,"end":5187.921,"text":"我要問你兩個問題第一個我們無人機的檢查部分未來會越來越多無人機也是從這次大家非常重視的不管是戰略品或者無人機的遊戲機"},{"start":5190.323,"end":5212.757,"text":"現在都要檢驗行政業也要求你們要檢驗我就不曉得現在越來越多你們的編列預算跟收入預算為什麼本來是1140萬為什麼降下來870為什麼檢驗越多怎麼會收入也少然後開支也少為什麼"},{"start":5214.157,"end":5231.087,"text":"跟委員報告有關相關的無人機檢驗來講目前譬如說像經濟部的部分是他們在檢驗那民航局的部分是兩公斤以上的部分兩公斤以上的飛航局我問的為什麼啦講的那個部分應該是雅創新興的不是 何局長"},{"start":5232.208,"end":5256.548,"text":"我坦白講你們資料不提供我就看得非常細連你們怎麼編我都很清楚你不要以為立法委員都來混的立法委員啊尤其啊我們這次很多是民意代表出身的我跟你講預算你們怎麼藏我們都很清楚但是我們都內行人我不希望你們騙立法委員應該是越誤越多"},{"start":5257.945,"end":5286.015,"text":"預算是要增加沒錯我們只能砍預算但是不是這樣要馬跑要馬吃草啊不能業務怎麼推行我們在乎的是業務不是在乎的是給不給錢的問題所以這點我希望部長還是要去監督一下最後一個我特別要提醒何局長你們國外旅遊的部分也就是國外考察"},{"start":5287.343,"end":5291.369,"text":"為什麼增加這麼多為什麼本來23萬現在變成148萬原因何在"},{"start":5298.885,"end":5317.633,"text":"你不曉得齁好沒有關係我只是提供我也不要圍欄你啦好不好我不要圍欄你這個就牽涉到我剛才跟主席報告的希望你們每一位首長要來立法院報告要聊露職長如何編列預算"},{"start":5319.585,"end":5337.905,"text":"不要照本先科這樣我們第一個其實我們也很會練啦不然你可以當部長我們也可以當立委你有兩把刷子我們也有兩把刷子所以不要照本先科我跟你講這些你們回去查一下我希望私底下給我"},{"start":5338.986,"end":5365.341,"text":"給我答案不然的話我坦白跟你講在審預算的時候你不要以為立法委員只管大事考察費用的部分我請何局長特別向您報告是啦我不是怕給錢是認為有必要才花有必要當然我們支持啊所以我剛才點出這些我希望何局長回去趕快就這些問題但是我很在乎的"},{"start":5366.321,"end":5380.648,"text":"你們資料不給我我就把你資料看得更清楚我也希望部長不要因為這些小事影響你預算的大事這是我特別提醒跟特別懇求好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":5383.615,"end":5398.05,"text":"好 謝謝林委員也請交通部這個委員調資料的時候除了有機密要說明所有資料一定要限期要提供因為這是我們的職責好 接下來請下一位黃建浩委員發言"},{"start":5407.182,"end":5417.407,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們先邀請這個交通部陳世凱部長陳部長民航局何局長何局長跟我們中華航空謝董事長謝董好大家好這個一開始我想先肯定一下當然這個過去有講說這個"},{"start":5434.836,"end":5451.248,"text":"華航的機組員空服員可以穿褲裝液體那當然現在我想這公司這邊有比較有一個明確的進展的確公布了新的這個女性客艙組員的褲裝的選項但是我們可以看到在這個華航內部的這個群組裡面我想這個"},{"start":5453.084,"end":5468.161,"text":"過去你們公開的時候這個第一波的制服這個是由張淑萍來設計的我想問一下現在新增的這個褲裝還是由張淑萍設計嗎還是你們自己另外找廠商來設計跟委員報告這是我們自己設計的"},{"start":5470.798,"end":5497.047,"text":"董事長你自己會不會穿這樣的衣服出門這種是事實上我們的組員有一些反應那反應了以後我們也都做改善包括如何去選擇比方說褲裝兩套裙裝一套兩套裙裝一套褲裝這我們都綜合組員的意見我們做了一些改善那這個部分事實上是我們等於是給組員一個選擇的一個自由"},{"start":5500.1,"end":5522.435,"text":"董事長我要講的說像其實你們男裝當初當設計設計的時候就很好看了那現在女裝的部分你們重新做這個褲裝的部分我之前會提出來當然就是因為我們也是華航的這個熱愛華航的使用者嘛那當然說到很多的陳情就是說怎麼會這個服裝的色系我講色系當然色系怎麼樣當然見仁見智但以色彩來講"},{"start":5523.556,"end":5533.001,"text":"不管是男裝女裝我想因為你們代表的是我國的這個門面嘛這個國際航空公司那我們當然希望說你們設計的設計至少一體啊如果今天換成這個庫裝的部分"},{"start":5536.202,"end":5558.896,"text":"這個色彩也差了色彩跟這個設計上差蠻多我如果用乙圖收圖的話我跟這個董事長跟部長部長報告一下如果你去用這個新的制服、褲裝乙圖收圖收出來的大概卡通的話會像魯夫不好意思我是說真的這個乙圖收圖不是我自己講那再一半就是一些賭場的鶴館所以這部分我覺得華航作為這個"},{"start":5560.239,"end":5581.397,"text":"我們台灣最重要的國際航空其實在設計上面應該要去考量一下專業設計師的意見那跟你們這個自己組員的意見因為我看這個這邊出來之後你們內部的留言底下留言真的非常的精彩我想大家寧願寧願不穿或差別有人甚至說寧願穿男生的也不想要穿這一張我不知道董事長這個語氣有沒有掌握到"},{"start":5583.62,"end":5600.814,"text":"跟委員報告這個是因為要因應監察院有一個人權委員會對於這個組員的服裝的選擇我們是推出這個褲裝當然我們的制服已經用了大概十幾年了我們準備要換下一次要換的時候我們一次再來做一個修正"},{"start":5602.274,"end":5629.826,"text":"好啦我沒有反對我說褲裝當然很好就是說進步的象徵嘛只是說這個就是說未來齁他們還會再做一次的整體的服裝的這個變更啦齁那到時候也會找專業的設計師做很漂亮的這個這個設計好提醒一下啦因為畢竟齁我想各國航空公司不然河南航空也好這個越南航空也好各家許多航空公司他們都有所謂的褲裝齁但是我想色彩上面或是整個公司形象上面它是比較一致化的那我想在這一次這個事件上看起來"},{"start":5630.546,"end":5634.472,"text":"我覺得這個在設立上還是需要再進步一點好不好董事長"},{"start":5635.697,"end":5661.008,"text":"好那現在同樣針對還是針對我們航空公司的排名我想2024年全球最佳航空公司的部分我想長榮進步了一名那華航退步了三名那西宇航空也從39名進步到35名那反而是華航從去年41名退到44名那我想這個這個評鑑在業界也算是算是具有指標性指標意義的所以想問一下董事長到底覺得自己為什麼我們跟這個西宇跟長榮會有這樣落差"},{"start":5662.148,"end":5690.516,"text":"因為我個人我先講我是卡客所以我常搭華航所以我沒有搭別人所以我不知道別人怎麼樣我就覺得華航舒服但是到底發生什麼事情為什麼你們退步這麼多那個謝謝委員因為這個SKYTRACK我們本身並沒有接受他的評鑑那這個當然他評鑑我們都尊重那最主要是這樣子我們現在目前的產品還沒有一致性也就是說那個比較老舊的機型他的那個裡面的內裝是比較差一點就是說硬體設備"},{"start":5691.676,"end":5713.704,"text":"那新的飛機呢當然都是符合標準的那這個部分等到我們所有的那個老舊的機隊全部太出以後這個時候應該是我們的產品是一致性這個時候我們再來參加他的評鑑這邊跟董事長謝謝既然提到機型的問題我想我也稍微點一下就是說到底現在不管是業界或是各界都在討論一件事情就是你們接下來換的飛機"},{"start":5715.305,"end":5732.141,"text":"基本上很多是過去常常使用空巴的機隊你現在把它換成波音之後第一個問題是說這個波音這幾年的爭議相對比較多一點那再來是你們的這個飛行員訓練過去我想我有同學當飛行員他們知道每一種飛機每一架飛機尤其波音跟空巴是完全不同的系統"},{"start":5732.862,"end":5751.099,"text":"所以你們在訓練飛行員的成本上面或是在舒適度上面還有主員在這個整個客艙安排上面的確就會不一樣所以到底華航要多少比例使用波音多少比例使用這個空吧你們用怎麼樣的方式來評估還是真的是政治力介入所以你們決定要來採購波音"},{"start":5753.246,"end":5761.469,"text":"我想第一個這個政治力介入應該是沒有那我們自己在評估的時候是購機的時候我們會請那個國外的那個團隊顧問公司來幫我們評鑑幫我們評估那整個那個製造商的飛機其實嚴格講起來都是好飛機"},{"start":5771.232,"end":5796.607,"text":"那這些飛機哪些機型比較適合於我們這個是比較重要到目前為止以公司來講的話現在空吧的比例是比波音還多那其實如果是一般來講的話大概一般的航空公司大概都是五十五十左右所以我想我們的評估是經過專業的那個而且非常審慎的評估這邊請委員回報好董事長謝謝我想這個不管是波音或空吧我想大家最做出的舒適度之外"},{"start":5797.768,"end":5807.664,"text":"對交通部來講或對民營代表來講最重要應該是安全啦所以這部分的話這個播映的一些爭議最近有一些新聞出來我想董事長也都有看到我們希望你們要去針對這問題來解決好不好"},{"start":5809.383,"end":5833.452,"text":"好董事長謝謝董事長可以先請回座那接下來我們談一下我們臺中國際機場的運量我想疫情之後我想這整個全臺灣的這個航空業都受到重創當然今年慢慢的有回升那我看到我們臺中國際機場的部分2019年的時候有達到282萬人次算是新高但是目前疫情過後到目前來講去年大概有回升到150萬人次但是我想這個跟"},{"start":5835.298,"end":5861.794,"text":"樂觀的本來預估要到這個230萬人次的部分好像還是有一段時間的這個出入啦那當然就整個臺中機場的目前的規劃我們看到航班的部分主要航班都是在這個香港、澳門或是這個胡志明、越南的部分等等的就是航班數它相對比較少跟疫情前來講這個航班數減得非常非常多那甚至飛行的天數今天這個"},{"start":5862.814,"end":5887.023,"text":"大家出國很清楚很明顯大家為什麼喜歡去桃園機場原因就是因為它可能航班的選擇性比較高但是在台中的話我可能有些天數我根本沒有飛機可以回來沒有飛機可以出去所以整個在這個調整航班的部分的話台中機場的航段民航局這邊有沒有什麼樣規劃可以讓台中機場的這個運量能夠提升要不然按照現在這種狀況來講第一個都飛比較近的地方那第二個它的航段"},{"start":5888.103,"end":5914.034,"text":"時間點都不太好比如說這樣講好了去仁川大家很多人很多人會去韓國去採購去觀光你去仁川機場的飛機時間到那邊已經是晚上9點10點這將要出關就凌晨了嘛就深夜了嘛所以當然這個可能他的載客量他的業績就不會太好那桃機的話就不一樣他有早上的下午的晚上他都有選擇所以在台中機場的部分要怎麼樣提升我們的航段讓我們的這個這個客運量能夠提升"},{"start":5915.776,"end":5929.075,"text":"跟委員報告第一個有關剛剛提到的就是說到仁川的飛機都是晚上主要是因為現在都是這個外籍航空譬如說即將加入的真航空或者是大韓跟德威"},{"start":5930.096,"end":5954.122,"text":"這個部分因為他們飛寶級所以來的時候可能中午所以再回去的時候就會變晚上那這個部分在未來來講臺中的部分我們即將就是有這個沖繩的部分因為之前日本的部分大概也知道就是說有部分航線是飛了以後我們也積極在爭取就是成田跟名古也希望日本能夠盡快來達成這些都是疫情前就有的那疫情後到現在都還沒有回來"},{"start":5954.842,"end":5976.735,"text":"對所以現在日本的部分是高松還有包含這個沖繩的部分那相關的這個仁川也會即將本來都是包機那也即將會轉為定班這個也是跟韓國協商過的部分那所以說相關的整個今年來講確實是恢復到疫情前的77%那我們預估來講希望明年可以再往前大概可以到85或90"},{"start":5977.836,"end":5994.585,"text":"我要跟部長拜託啦就是說第一個是先把規劃的這個航空的期程是不是能夠把這個明確的期程提供給本席讓我們知道說到底後續航空在台中的航空這個航空站裡面到底有多少的航班可以飛那再也要提醒一下你們2040的設定的目標台中機場要達到1000萬人次"},{"start":5996.286,"end":6020.308,"text":"我想2040距離現在也沒有很遠但是要達到一千萬現在才一百多萬兩百萬這樣的人次要達到一千萬我想還要很長的距離如果航班長這樣子的話我想達到一千萬是很困難的所以航班的部分我想要增加吧是不是是 報告委員航班跟航點的部分我們會持續來努力尤其跟我們的國際航空大家都在溝通那這個部分比較確定的這些航班我們可能再提供給委員"},{"start":6020.868,"end":6027.759,"text":"好 這個部分我們來努力至少疫情前的這個航班要讓他回來吧是 是不是 好不好好 部長 局長 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝黃委員接下來有請李昆澤委員發言"},{"start":6043.253,"end":6050.081,"text":"謝謝魯明哲召委請一下陳部長還有華航謝董事長、機場公司楊董事長、民進黨局何局長"},{"start":6055.812,"end":6075.254,"text":"來部長這次我們的棒球隊前進東京這是國人最振奮的一件事情那當然要去到東京的這個去程是由WBSC就是世界棒壘球總會他們的安排包括我們臺灣、日本還有澳洲"},{"start":6076.897,"end":6103.35,"text":"三個隊伍各分配到12個商務艙其他是由豪經艙或經濟艙來座位去的時候有安排回程WBSC沒有安排他僅僅協助一般的機票處理也特別謝謝蔡奇昌會長全力奔走謝謝交通部還有華航全力的協助我請問一下謝董事長"},{"start":6104.93,"end":6129.318,"text":"來我們這次的飛機是波音777應該吧是的沒錯來那我請教部長我們這一次除了隊員之外那隊員的家屬呢是否也包含在裡面報告委員這一次他們回程的部分我們華航真的謝董非常幫忙派出777之外那我們的這個商務艙的部分可以擴增到讓球員可以坐到28席"},{"start":6129.818,"end":6146.577,"text":"那另外委員一直在關心的就是他們的家屬包含我們隨隊的這些員工還有就是記者的部分可不可以都包含在裡面嗎對可不可以同一班飛機我們這個部分我們讓他同一班飛機華航原則上是OK的是可以做到的謝謝華航這次全力的協助那我現在要"},{"start":6147.498,"end":6162.526,"text":"請教一下部長還有機場公司就是我們交通部應該要落實身心障礙者的這個權益的保障那不管是聯合國的CRPD就是身心障礙者權利公約在2006年就已經起草"},{"start":6163.146,"end":6188.619,"text":"那我們身心障礙者的權益保障法在1980年它的名稱叫殘障福利法2007年修法改名正名為身心障礙者的權益保障法那身心障礙者權益保障法它有兩個重要的意義第一個就是保障身心障礙者的權益第二就是避免他們遭受到歧視或者是不公平的這個一個對待那我們來看這個"},{"start":6191.403,"end":6218.18,"text":"身心障礙者權益保障法第38條它也有明武規定就是說公部門及公務機關必須員工總人數在34人以上者禁用具有就業能力之身心障礙者人數不得低於員工總人數的3%那我們來看接下來兩張的相片部長我請教你你覺得哪裡有什麼問題"},{"start":6220.014,"end":6225.409,"text":"這是桃園機場公司的招聘公告那你覺得在裡面來第二張"},{"start":6227.077,"end":6255.054,"text":"你覺得有什麼問題是 報告委員身心障礙的數量或許有達到剛剛您所說的那個3%的這個標準但是我們是不是不要把它限定在只有行政類的這個管理類的這個部分會不會值等太低啦應該是所有要開放是不是身心障礙者權益的保障不是只有這個原來的一個問題而是在於我們依照"},{"start":6256.445,"end":6274.582,"text":"多個國際人權組織他們相關的所提出的這種間接歧視的一個定義就是說雖然法律政策或是規範的內容以中性的表達方法呈現但是卻造成特定團體啊處於不對等的一個劣勢沒錯 無論說的沒錯"},{"start":6277.538,"end":6297.319,"text":"我們對於這樣的一個相關職位的這樣的一個禁用我認為第一個我們要落實對身心障礙者權利的保障第一個是每個職位身障者都有權利去爭取沒錯而不是限定說只能擔任某個特定工作"},{"start":6297.699,"end":6321.349,"text":"只有限定在行政管理只是第二個為了保障鼓勵身障者擔任某些工作的這個權利其實是可以在某些領域來進行加分是這個才是更進一步具體的這樣的一個對身心障礙者的保障我要提醒楊董事長逃機是跟國際接軌重要的國家門面那出現這一種"},{"start":6323.45,"end":6350.893,"text":"隔離政策的這樣的一個歧視的行為我認為是真的要深自檢討那1950年代美國就提出這種隔離就是歧視的概念許多判決都明確的指出雖然做一樣的事雖然做一樣的事但是出現區隔這就是歧視的行為你們在你們的招募的這個"},{"start":6352.267,"end":6365.912,"text":"公告裡面然後說這個是身心障礙者的這個爭取的職位這就是一種堅革的歧視這就是一種隔離那我要提醒陶器必須要立即的改善"},{"start":6367.42,"end":6382.312,"text":"第二交通部等下再統一說明交通部跟本部所轄的所有機關也要全面的檢視有沒有這樣的狀況公部門你沒有主動去保障身心障礙者尊嚴跟權益我們怎麼去要求民間來楊董事長說明一下"},{"start":6384.893,"end":6408.865,"text":"謝謝委員的這個提醒這個公告內容我們表達的不夠清楚我們所寫的保障的那個科系的就那個專長的部分是最競爭最激烈的專長就是一般行政的部分所以我們用保障那個一般行政的禁用的員額裡面有申請障礙人數那其他的都還是一樣跟平常的情況是一樣的"},{"start":6409.705,"end":6413.675,"text":"我們會做一個比較補充的報告在那個招生的這個這個要前逃改進我接下來請教一下民航局"},{"start":6418.411,"end":6439.302,"text":"民航局我們當然對於飛航的改革在2015年復興航空的空難之後我們不管是飛航的系統它的安全系統或是它的這個一個操作的流程或是起降的流程有更多的這樣不管是民航局或是民間的業者都有很加強這方面的相關的改革"},{"start":6441.083,"end":6461.389,"text":"我們看到民航局的統計我們渦輪、螺旋機、飛機全毀失事例從2016年到現在失禮直升機全毀的事故例2017年到現在失禮要繼續的保持下去當然國際的有它的一些失事例其實都是像渦輪是高達1.21"},{"start":6465.331,"end":6474.228,"text":"2016年是平均從0.98上升到現在的1.21這個是我們要必須保持我們好的這個飛安但是我們還是有隱憂"},{"start":6476.397,"end":6492.646,"text":"我們民航局在2023年發生的事件重大的飛航事故而造成兩人死亡這個局長應該都很清楚那雲安會有做統計近10年來飛航事故的因素跟人相關的佔了66.7與環境相關的佔了48.5與航空器相關的佔了24.2"},{"start":6501.363,"end":6521.995,"text":"來 局長我們航空器如果發生這種航空器的緊急逃生它是運輸工具裡面最難的安全是不可忽視的那我們針對與人相關、環境相關與航空器相關局長我們有沒有具體的改善跟要求的措施 來說明一下"},{"start":6523.499,"end":6544.799,"text":"有關跟人相關的部分就是剛剛報告也有提到的就是第一個就是操作的一個遵守這個操作手冊的部分標準作業程序的部分那第二個就是公司應該對相關的人員給予足夠的相關的資訊也好訓練也好包含相關供他們做在操作過程中所需要具備的一個專業"},{"start":6545.82,"end":6562.578,"text":"那我想這個是人的部分我們要去做一個更完善因為人的部分其實所有的事件發生一定都跟人有關因為這個人在操作所以這個部分是我們長年以來一直在追求的部分就是希望在人的造成的因素的部分來降低"},{"start":6563.373,"end":6589.608,"text":"好 局長您也提到人的因素了我們來看看我們相關飛航的安全業務的檢查人力其實是缺乏的 而且是心血不足那從運安會的報告我們可以得知人員的狀況及這種導航的因素是我國飛航事故的主要原因我們民航安全業務各類檢查員的年齡分佈他平均年齡是54歲"},{"start":6591.289,"end":6609.817,"text":"其實是有點偏高了另外更重要飛航管制員的員額統計我們編制員額是589人那預算的員額有480人那現有員額是385人我要提醒局長值班時數平均是將近200個小時遠超過國際的平均120小時"},{"start":6617.622,"end":6636.907,"text":"這種飛航安全的檢察員或者是管制員他跟飛安關係是最為密切的那我們看到人力不足超時工作或是造成這種過度的頻繁是會嚴重的影響飛航我必須很嚴格的提醒局長我們民航局有掌握這種狀況嗎有沒有什麼改善的措施"},{"start":6637.547,"end":6657.744,"text":"跟委員報告第一類就是這個飛安檢查員的部分因為我們要求的航機務相關的檢查員都要在基本上有一個資格條件就是在業界應該有相關的飛航時數或者是經驗年資所以在這個部分他進來的時候其實已經有相當的一個時間所以進來的時候大概應該都是40幾歲以上"},{"start":6659.105,"end":6680.26,"text":"那在進來之後呢因為我們有採兩種一個是約聘或公務員那報考公務員的部分就是我們知道他其實他的專業跟一般是不一樣所以我們特別去設了民航特考的類科供這一些人報考那第二個就是約聘的部分我們就盡量招聘不過近年來尤其疫情過後其實是比較警長我清楚了所以我講"},{"start":6681.421,"end":6706.693,"text":"跟你講重點就是說我們的值班時數都將近200個小時遠遠超過國際平均的120小時管制員的部分我們是行政院有給我們員額163分5年合撥那5年進來後其實因為他續念招考大概要11個月的時間才能上線所以陸續目前今年也會再招考31個就是說每一年30個5年從110年到115年"},{"start":6709.494,"end":6730.86,"text":"加強飛安好不好加強飛安那從2015年復興航空空難當時我還代表家屬跟復興航空談判相關的這個賠償事宜這個是永久的傷痛我們不希望再發生這樣的事情所以我們對飛安必須要嚴格的要求以上請部長嚴格的督促好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6733.271,"end":6743.516,"text":"好謝謝李昆哲委員做以下宣告待會發言到陳樹葉召委發言完畢之後休息10分鐘接下來有請許富奎委員發言謝謝主席有請我們交通部陳部長、民用局何局長、中華航空協董事長"},{"start":6770.083,"end":6786.24,"text":"部長、局長、董事長早安那我想這個12強棒球賽實在是讓這個臺灣的社會這個真的是這個很激憤那尤其最近這個昨天大家到今天一直在討論就是所謂的一個班級的一個"},{"start":6787.261,"end":6788.102,"text":"目前回程的機票大概平均一個人大概多少錢?"},{"start":6815.726,"end":6842.126,"text":"這樣子啊那個去程如果去的人買來回的話買來回票的話沒有多少錢的問題因為台灣這邊已經買完了除非是去程做的是單程那回程沒有票的我們會在網路上讓他訂那訂的話你訂到什麼倉庫就付什麼價錢因為很多年輕人齁這個哇哇叫啦說這個票太貴了也沒有啦我們有考量到這個問題啦"},{"start":6845.109,"end":6864.189,"text":"這個請委員放心這個雖然有市場機制但是華航身為國家隊其實都蠻體恤大家不過這一點還是要請部長跟局長這邊還有我們董事長這邊幫忙因為這次真的是一個這個協調的過程當然時間很短那未來面對這樣的一個情形我們是不是有一個更"},{"start":6865.131,"end":6879.547,"text":"嚴謹的一個SOP的一個處理的一個機制然後未來包含跟我們的國級的航空還有跟這個外國的一個機場的協調部分部長這邊有沒有什麼樣的想法報告委員其實我們這一次民航局跟華航都相當的幫忙尤其民航局也跟"},{"start":6880.087,"end":6900.825,"text":"不只是華航跟其他的航空公司也都在協調那這個過程其實啟動的速度算是蠻快那不過每一個航空公司的狀況不太一樣我們也不能夠去強制要求一定要換大飛機或者是要增加航班因為這也牽涉到跟日本那邊或者是我們要去的目的地的國家的這個機場能不能地勤能不能負荷的問題"},{"start":6901.846,"end":6916.322,"text":"那不過委員在建議的SOP就是未來如果國家有這樣重要的賽事的時候可能我們民航局就先提高警覺馬上注意到那如果有好消息傳出的時候我們需要出國去比賽的時候這個部分民航局會馬上來啟動"},{"start":6917.583,"end":6941.735,"text":"因為我們都期待我們臺灣的隊伍都有機會打進國際賽那也應該要做一個超前部署的一個準備是是好謝謝那另外我想我們都很羨慕尤其我們左院長大概這個月8號有到小港機場去視察那也關心我們這個第一期第二期這個高雄國際機場航廈的一個進入那部長這部分應該如期沒有問題嗎"},{"start":6943.276,"end":6967.335,"text":"小港機場的這個改建計畫是沒有問題的目前都在進度當中這個不會延遲對 但是這邊我還是要提醒部長一下因為我們常常提到所謂的一個南台灣的這個科技狼帶也好還是觀光的一個發展也好屏東都不能置身事外也不能被排除在外那小港機場有做一個國際化的一個機場的一個條件但是我還是要提到我們屏東有兩個機場一個屏東機場還有一個我們的武力艇機場"},{"start":6971.078,"end":6991.922,"text":"那我們在交通委員會考察的時候那當然也特別拜託部長跟我們的局長針對肯定機場這個未來的一個方向是不是有一個比較一個活化的一個策略那部長我想這個包含屏東縣政府我們鄒縣長也好還有我們的觀光業者還有很多鄉親還是期待這個包機能夠重啟這個包機飛航的這個部分"},{"start":6995.583,"end":7005.334,"text":"那但是我在想民調局當然有很多的考量那局長上次我們委員會考察完之後有沒有一個更新的一個進度"},{"start":7006.754,"end":7032.564,"text":"我想當然各界是希望有包機不過這個部分我們民航局還是會看看怎麼來推動它不過它真的它有它的市場性那不過短期來講的話我們跟觀光署已經有討論因為觀光署明年會在這個恆春半島有一個振興計畫然後包含這個陸海空的部分所以我們會搭配觀光署跟這個恆春建成150週年來看看如何推動這個部分"},{"start":7033.052,"end":7053.814,"text":"好部長我想我們還是希望能夠去做一個短中長期的一個規劃跟火花的一個計畫包含短期我們應該專案我們的一個輕航機的一個長訓的一個基地還有作為一個無人機的一個訓練考照場那中期我們應該獎勵上路飛機能夠進駐然後也事辦我們屏東到臺北的一個包機的獎勵"},{"start":7054.815,"end":7083.226,"text":"那長期當然我們是希望針對一個機場的一個跑道的延伸還有增加一個側風跑道的規劃讓我們大型的班機能夠來做一個起降那甚至未來推動國際包機跟搭配一個衛星的一個產業發射基地在屏東那目前有沒有可能我們來做一個跳島飛行的一個規劃包含恆春到蘭嶼、恆春到金門或是恆春到馬祖的一個航線的一個考量局長這部分有沒有可能來"},{"start":7083.866,"end":7106.002,"text":"跟我們航空公司來協調一下有關委員講的要從恆春飛蘭嶼跟恆春跟金門因為這些都是比較新的航線就是委員提出來的那這個部分要包含它的航機等等的部分我們再來做整體的評估然後看看航空公司有沒有意願做這樣的一個飛航"},{"start":7106.801,"end":7131.07,"text":"對 其實武力群機場的條件很好尤其我們今年6月我們辦了青陽機的這個飛行體驗真的是秒殺所以很多人對這個空中的一個旅遊的一個所謂的一個喜好度還是很高不過因為這個我們活化的部分上次因為我有提過我們的租金算得太貴了所以變成一些民間的團體他不敢來"},{"start":7132.31,"end":7151.896,"text":"部長這個我們來研究看怎麼降低到可以鼓勵大家吸引大家進去那邊辦活動因為我們是希望能夠把遊客帶進來既然有民間社團或是我們官方的單位願意辦活動我們應該要樂觀其人來協助這部分我想住進的部分是不是可以營一個比較適妥的方式"},{"start":7153.877,"end":7179.674,"text":"好 我們來研議針對不同的對象 我們來研議看看如何做調整對 讓他有吸引力 要讓他有吸引力其實我們現在的收費已經很低了 其實已經打蠻低了不過我們再看看啦 就是說也要再合規對啦 有一些有公立性質或是一些委員如果有這方面的團體 有這方面的需求其實可以直接來跟民航局講 那民航局來協助看什麼樣的費用比較符合他們的需求這樣"},{"start":7180.575,"end":7207.31,"text":"部長那我請教我們竹田我們屏東縣政府有規劃一個無人機的飛行場部長有去過嗎這個我沒去過很棒這個環境很棒那我今年我前陣子大概有去看了一場就是我們這個無人機的一個體驗的一個活動那包含從這個國小的小朋友一直到很多的老人家他們都很喜歡這個無人機的一個操作但是很可惜的就是因為我們現在一個定義的考照的部分"},{"start":7208.25,"end":7230.322,"text":"當地沒辦法做一個常態化那其實我們很多南部的考生必須跑到雲林這點有點可惜啦那這部分是不是可以請民用局來協助部分包含一個考照的一個制度還有一個場地的其實那個我們那個無人機的場地可以再做一個更大的一個規劃跟一個改善的空間這部分是不是可以請民用局來做一個協助"},{"start":7232.135,"end":7251.964,"text":"因為確實比較大型的其實它是目前來講如果要有的話其實是真的要到這個雲林那一邊因為它因為機型不同大小不同所以每個場地有那因為如果比較大型對周遭的一個相關的要有第一個要有周遭環境的淨空等等"},{"start":7252.484,"end":7279.703,"text":"所以他有一些條件那我們再來看看這個部分也要相關的所以我還是建議部長跟局長找個時間來參觀一下那利用真的是非常好的一個場域尤其我覺得像我們無人機的考照真的是很多的這個不管是這個小朋友也好學生也好甚至到我們的很多的青年人甚至中年人都很喜歡這樣那尤其我們現在結合所一個農業的一個操作"},{"start":7280.443,"end":7289.993,"text":"跟所謂的一個未來的一個很多一個商業的一個是他們會舉辦無人機足球賽非常非常的精彩這部分再請部長來這邊來協助那最後一個我想"},{"start":7293.476,"end":7310.392,"text":"我們有一個民間民眾有在一個公共政策網路有提到一個所謂一個開放寵物進入客艙的一個提案那我們民用局這邊有回應說已經請國籍的航空公司參考國外來做一個評估那不曉得這個案子目前的進度"},{"start":7311.013,"end":7328.931,"text":"是吳前河局長跟委員報告目前業者的評估國際業者的評估據理都收到了那因為相關的這個他們考整個業者在考量的時候因為其實主要部分就是包含寵物的一個相關的一個處理然後包含這個"},{"start":7330.593,"end":7352.735,"text":"其實主要還是有一個其他旅客的一個接受度然後再來就是航空公司端他對於這個航空器裡面空氣的循環等等相關的一些搭配所以目前參考其他國家來講就是說一些航空公司其實尤其跟這個我們業者有相關聯營的有部分航空公司也沒有提供所以如何讓這個讓航空公司願意來"},{"start":7353.576,"end":7353.776,"text":"進行專題報告．"},{"start":7375.394,"end":7402.135,"text":"帶進來的那也有其他旅客因為他的毛髮造成他的旅客的問題所以這個部分還是相關意見其實各方意見都很多然後相關意見其實還是要需要時間來說還是需要審慎評估好這部分我想還是請民用局這邊應該要做盡快做一個公告因為這個畢竟這個貓小孩的這個議題也是很多人在關心這部分還是需要一個比較明確一個方向好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":7406.291,"end":7410.115,"text":"好 謝謝許委員接下來有請陳樹葉召委發言謝謝主席 請主席 邀請部長還有何局長還有桃機公司楊董事長楊董事長"},{"start":7432.786,"end":7438.09,"text":"部長早安我們知道這個桃機桃園機場是我們國家的很重要的一個門戶所以我們也知道桃機公司都有參與國際機場的一個評比"},{"start":7448.536,"end":7451.798,"text":"主要我們參加的兩個組織就是國際機場協會的全球機場服務品質調查還有英國航空公司Skytrax全球百大機場的評比我們看到在"},{"start":7466.866,"end":7487.385,"text":"就是國際機場協會的全球機場服務品質調查裡面它的滿分是5分那在這連續的5年我們的這個評比幾乎都是比較穩定的那可是我們看到這個全球百大機場的排名從108年一直到這個112年是逐步下滑而且是下滑"},{"start":7487.845,"end":7488.286,"text":"中華航空局局長"},{"start":7503.022,"end":7520.949,"text":"對我們整個機場服務的一個品質當然是有一點的鼓勵可是我們也是希望就是說桃機公司在這邊應該還有很大的一個努力的空間那我先想請教一下部長就是說對這個整個桃園機場那個服務品質的部分你有什麼看法或想法"},{"start":7521.389,"end":7550,"text":"報告委員 桃機公司其實都很努力不過我看這個數字上面從108年到113年我們現在是66名那雖然比前兩年有進步但我覺得這個進步的速度不夠快那也大概不一定能夠符合國人的需求跟想法所以我們在想說這個未來三行下如果建制完成之後那包含整個人力進駐完備之後可不可以讓我們的整體的這個機場的服務能夠再更優化"},{"start":7550.9,"end":7576.238,"text":"這個部分我覺得桃機公司現在正在做努力也就是說第三航廈雖然還沒建制完成但是前置的作業他們目前都正在準備那現在雖然是只有一、二航廈不過一、二航廈目前的服務品質能不能在新航廈完成之前先優化這個部分其實我覺得桃機公司應該要花更多的心思下去思考以現在的狀況看怎麼讓它更優化那三航廈起來之後那是三航廈之後的事"},{"start":7577.072,"end":7606.637,"text":"對部長說的沒錯了因為第3行下畢竟還要到2027年才會完工那到底是不是能夠如期還不曉得所以在第1、第2行下的一個優化我覺得是非常重要的而且是刻不容緩那我們也看到就是說我們這個機場目前也有就是推動這個智慧機場就是自助行李托運的設備使用可是我覺得這個也是一個時代的一個需求這也是剛剛部長所說的優化的一個部分"},{"start":7607.357,"end":7622.826,"text":"那可是我們看到就是說有關自助行李的托運其實這個在其他國外就是外國的很多國際機場事實上也都是運用很普及了那我們看到其實我們國內在這個部分使用率卻是偏低的"},{"start":7623.246,"end":7623.326,"text":"報告委員其實這個自動"},{"start":7639.344,"end":7667.28,"text":"自助的行李托運可以加快整個機場運作的速度那過去的平均是大概4%而已其實相當的低那今年已經上升到8%不過還是你上面的標題是一樣的還是極低啦還是極低那這個部分除了盡量宣導之外就是航空公司的配合可能我們也要加強跟航空公司這邊來溝通怎麼樣鼓勵他們的這個旅客願意來用這個自助行李托運的這個部分那是不是董事長要不要補充一下"},{"start":7668.14,"end":7696.203,"text":"市長補充一下正如剛剛委員提到的還有很大的成長空間對進步空間那臺灣的旅客有個特性就是我們的團客特別多是那團客的部分的資助行李托運就要看他的這個促銷或者是我們的鼓勵措施那航空公司或者是旅行社是一個相當的重要的一個協助的單位那這個部分我們會繼續努力那剛剛部長已經特別提到從去年開始使用有獎勵措施以後從4.7的"},{"start":7698.024,"end":7705.819,"text":"百分比提升到10月份今年到10月份是8.1%左右但是這個幅度還會再增加所以我們會繼續努力"},{"start":7706.553,"end":7718.34,"text":"是好我想我們每一個人的那個經驗都一樣就是最不喜歡排隊所以你如果等到我覺得是說不管是掛行李啦或者是在通關的時候露出鏡的時候大排長龍啊我想都會讓民眾覺得不耐煩所以我覺得說在每一個環節加快這個處理一個程序我覺得這個讓"},{"start":7729.166,"end":7754.232,"text":"這個乘客就是旅客的感受是很大的所以那我們也知道就是說其實在整個評比的項目裡面我想這個楊董事長應該也很清楚就是包括登機手續或者抵達轉機購物安檢入出境登機所有的程序每個環節我想這個都是我們需要再去好好再做一個就是檢視看是不是還有可以再改進"},{"start":7754.972,"end":7755.773,"text":"目前還沒有列入評比項目"},{"start":7773.358,"end":7799.77,"text":"目前還沒有進入到未來的這個標準項目裡面去不過桃園機場在探盤查探認證的努力我們已經開始好幾年那到目前為止已經把機場裡面的這個探盤查我們做到了第三階段的探盤查現在今年正在做第四階段那個代表的意義是說我們自己的排碳量之外在機場服務共同服務共同會用這個場域裡面的排碳量或者是我們的員工進出的交通系統"},{"start":7800.63,"end":7825.576,"text":"使用的這種交通工具它也有碳排量所以我們整個機場裡面的共同使用機場或者是服務的這些單位我們一起在努力當中那希望在未來的新規範出來之前我們已經做好了準備是好我們也要事先做好準備了那我們也看到就是說在114年度我們也有針對剛剛楊董事長所說的第4個階段第4期的一個機場認證計畫有編列所需的一個經費"},{"start":7829.697,"end":7847.183,"text":"所以我們也期待就是說我們做好準備那未來當然就是說評比的項目也列入的話因為我想這個是未來的一個時代趨勢也有可能不久也會列入一個評比的一個項目裡面好那再來本席想關心一下有關地商行下的一個工程進度的問題"},{"start":7848.303,"end":7871.615,"text":"因為我有關心就是這個第三航廈就是有關未來在跟第三航廈一二跟三的這個之間的旅客的一個接駁的這樣子的一個方式目前我們是採用就是自駕電動巴士的這個系統那這個也已經招標發包出去了"},{"start":7872.295,"end":7891.443,"text":"那我們看到就是說目前得標的廠商是承運公司可是在得標之後目前你更換他的就是合作的這個分包廠商就是李立公司那我不曉得說這樣子的程序合法嗎是不是請部長回覆一下"},{"start":7892.849,"end":7918.291,"text":"這個齁 其實淘擠公司都已經在研議當中也都在瞭解整個過程那包含魯昭偉之前也都有提到這個案子那這個部分我們現在積極正在處理當中下個禮拜應該會做一個決定這個部分目前承運公司已經正式提出要求那淘擠公司收到這個我們在處理當中按照合約的規定與法律的規定來處理"},{"start":7919.659,"end":7948.437,"text":"是 那目前我們還沒有同意他變更就對了沒有 這個沒有同意他好 因為就本席所看到的資料裡面就是這個工程會的說明就是按照採購法第36條第一項的話他是不能夠更換的嘛 是不是那如果是按照第二項的話就是說這個更換的新廠商如果優於原來的這個分包廠商是可以更換的嘛這是例外嘛 是不是"},{"start":7949.157,"end":7970.806,"text":"那當然就是說這個部分也有賴這個你們主管機關跟專業的機關去審核到底他要更換的未來的廠商合作廠商據說是公研院是不是由於原來的李立公司這個當然就是要你們去把關不過本席比較關心的當然就是這個安全的問題是"},{"start":7972.187,"end":7980.922,"text":"就是說有關自駕電動巴士接駁系統我們在不管是監理法規或者是配套措施是不是都已經完備了是不是請部長說明一下"},{"start":7986.022,"end":8012.854,"text":"機場公司的這個自駕車的系統他是在一個封閉系統裡面所以跟相關的其他的建立法規他有不一樣的這個使用場域的這個限制我們比較安全那是沒有問題這點在技術上面是不是問題那我們現在遭遇到的困難已經在處理當中那現在會不會因為這樣子的一個處理影響到第三航廈未來的使用這點我們會特別注意而且會有一個配套備案會先準備好"},{"start":8014.114,"end":8024.521,"text":"至於說合約處理的部分我們按照採購法的規定來處理目前這個承運公司也向公務工程委員會提出了申請要求調處那目前工程會也在處理當中"},{"start":8025.828,"end":8052.243,"text":"是就是因為這個國際機場真的就是國家的門面那未來就是就是不管是國內旅客、國外旅客那在這個接駁的這個過程當中我們真的希望就是說這個安全性我們一定要非常的一個重視所以這個技術上的一個成熟度或者是不是有實際的一個時機我覺得這個都是非常重要要去考量的一個部分好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":8058.602,"end":8081.832,"text":"好 謝謝陳樹葉召委那先溫馨提示一下這個待會休息期間因為我們隔壁鄰居202的那個會議室人口密度比較高一點巷道稍微狹窄一點其實我們通過的這個所有官員速度稍微快一點那廁所不夠用的話可以建議往上走或者到一樓去好 我們現在開始休息10分鐘"},{"start":8096.012,"end":8102.376,"text":"有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長"},{"start":8113.643,"end":8122.71,"text":"對,你已經推車之後,它才15分鐘,所以它還沒開動我沒有,我可以進來問議員,你怕那個航空會有氣象嗎?沒有,靠前鋪車沒有太多了"},{"start":8139.962,"end":8140.543,"text":"本會議的主席"},{"start":8161.715,"end":8163.076,"text":"本期視頻就介紹到這裏了﹗"},{"start":8188.689,"end":8189.751,"text":"本期視頻就分享到這裏"},{"start":8201.351,"end":8206.574,"text":"有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長"},{"start":8218.899,"end":8248.643,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":8248.903,"end":8249.604,"text":"本期視頻就介紹到這裏了﹗"},{"start":8264.352,"end":8274.576,"text":"其實那一天結婚的關係是類似的好那有些被叫英雄活得不活得好但因為其實他們再怎麼樣就是再好因為民眾你知道嗎"},{"start":8696.499,"end":8701.682,"text":"好 大家請坐我們繼續開會 接下來有請許智傑委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長陳部長還有民航局長何局長"},{"start":8734.056,"end":8745.914,"text":"部長你知道那個高雄飛成田機場那個機票大概多少錢嗎高雄飛成田機場這個機票我不知道多少錢沒買過機場知不知道最近的"},{"start":8749.045,"end":8776.7,"text":"平常差不多都一萬塊一萬塊你知道現在多少錢你知道嗎最近可能因為那個大家想要去看比賽所以可能價格都調升了三萬九千對我在網路上也有看到一些桃園飛日本東北的所以你可以看這個我們南高屏的球迷真的是很辛苦單層那你看這個就是臺北桃園飛"},{"start":8778.723,"end":8794.834,"text":"日本成田或者是羽田他們從小飛機改大飛機多了不少位置那當然就價格又比較低去的人又比較多那有沒有機會"},{"start":8796.608,"end":8823.203,"text":"趕快拜託局長拜託航空公司有沒有機會就是說我調大飛機那這樣子我的票價可以降低你看我從一萬到三萬九直飛那你看那個價格阿現在好像剩下幾個啦各位數的票數啦各位數的機位所以這個其實你看有這麼大的需求阿但是呢"},{"start":8824.266,"end":8835.477,"text":"又貴又沒有辦法達到那麼多人去有沒有機會這個是不是拜託民航局長拜託一下這個由民航局去跟各航空公司來協調看看是不是請局長"},{"start":8836.894,"end":8860.633,"text":"有關就是這一次這個棒球到東京的部分其實民航局已經協調過好幾輪那我想有關高雄的部分因為還有幾天嘛我們也再協調看看好不好就盡量你看我們盡量來跟航空公司協調就是同樣的班次同樣的時間就是把飛機加大那我去的人可以增多價格可以減少那不是很好的事嗎"},{"start":8861.94,"end":8890.232,"text":"好不好 這個拜託部長跟局長辛苦一點為我們南高屏 這不只是為我們高雄其實台南、屏東、南高屏都喜歡到我們都很喜歡去啊你看現在票價漲到三萬九真的是嚇死人好不好 這個拜託部長跟局長幫忙協助好 那第二個部長你知道那個臺北的大邱都有那個多元支付嗎這個我知道知道齁"},{"start":8891.34,"end":8917.859,"text":"你知道高雄機場都沒有嗎委員在說的是這個排班的部分那現在應該已經有一些計程車他已經有這個刷卡機了昨天我已經有跟前天還跟部長講過第一個排班計程車有沒有機會讓他不要說很久還要多多的一百通口要有一個基本的讓他划算的價格讓他划算的價格他才願意來排班嘛因為來排班也才能夠解決出入境旅客"},{"start":8918.66,"end":8920.824,"text":"那現在第三個就是如果能夠再有多元支付其實真的是方便達成"},{"start":8930.658,"end":8953.543,"text":"這個已經有引進多元支付了有引進了沒問題了嗎跟委員報告有關高雄排班計程車其實他現在已經有部分車輛有這個多元支付那我們現在已經請他們還是持續鼓勵他們希望都能夠去裝這個多元支付是啊因為我現在我去還要挑說欸那個有多元支付的優先來排班排在後面是"},{"start":8954.223,"end":8981.562,"text":"那這樣子其實他們又會吵架啦所以這個部分是不是請局長也協助解決一下我們再來協助第三個就是我們的那個高雄機場的興建事實上這個問題其實蠻大的現在半半施工啦半半施工就是說地勤能量夠不夠然後呢"},{"start":8982.987,"end":9011.296,"text":"外籍其實我去拜訪了大概有十幾家航空公司的那有一些也想來但是他說那我們沒有辦法過夜因為那個停機坪空間可能不夠然後第三個呢這國際業者其實我們去拜訪的時候也有表示說如果可以有空間他們願意來高雄設基地那現在如果辦辦施工要16年"},{"start":9013.257,"end":9018.28,"text":"那16年這三個問題有沒有機會解決?如果沒有機會解決,高雄機場可能就會萎縮。報告委員,這個過程確實是半半失功,因為我們邊改要邊飛航,那這三個問題是不是現在可以幫忙解決?先預把這個問題找出來,因為你現在沒有想到這個問題,你半半失功16年這個問題都沒有想到的話,高雄小港機場的飛機一定會萎縮。"},{"start":9044.067,"end":9047.697,"text":"地勤的部分目前是台勤嗎?目前只有一家?台勤跟長勤"},{"start":9051.43,"end":9080.098,"text":"場景是他們只能做自己的對 只做自己的台警是通通可以其他都可以支援其他航空公司都可以那我說的這三個理由這三個問題就是局長可能比較熟有沒有機會解決我想地勤的代理能量因為它是業務操作所以如果有業者來當然他能量需要擴充他會業者會去擴充那可是這個過業機品的部分確實誠如剛剛委員所說的因為我們這個滑行道要北移"},{"start":9080.778,"end":9096.734,"text":"所以說有一些工地確實是會吃到這個機坪的位置不過我們透過那個時間帶協調的機制就是把相關的機坪所謂時間帶就是我們盡量把這個監理風航班的監理風把它拉平所以我順便提到底下就是我們其實該設一個目標不過16年齁人們一想到16年頭殼都崩起來"},{"start":9101.766,"end":9113.282,"text":"那我這16年裡面比如說我停車場工程的完成電動步道的完成滑行道北移停機坪空間的增加等等我是不是可以把這16年"},{"start":9115.066,"end":9134.309,"text":"在切割成幾個兩年兩年兩年或四年四年兩年四年等等的就是說我讓人民知道說我這個機場雖然在改製雖然在半班施工但是我這些問題其實我逐步在解決這個部分其實我覺得優先要想到的就是停機坪的問題啦"},{"start":9135.785,"end":9154.965,"text":"如果這個沒有辦法過夜如果沒有辦法設基地那我高雄的飛機顯然在這16年之內很明顯一定會decay我在這邊可以大膽的做這樣子的預測但是今天身為部長跟身為局長一定是不忍心看到我高雄機場在沒落嘛"},{"start":9155.906,"end":9179.419,"text":"那這三個問題就是應該要在辦辦施工的過程當中還要再想到這個問題然後如何在我這個 要對三個方面你知道為什麼嗎我今天辦辦施工我還有怎麼樣的機會來撬出一些空間對不對我來處理這個問題要不然一定是高雄市場未來一定會跌下來"},{"start":9182.478,"end":9203.512,"text":"我跟委員報告其實確實像委員講我們其實這個停車場工程跟這個A滑行道北一其實它是航廈主體工程的前置工程等於是說它也是分階段技術上讓局長去克服那我的意思是需求上的問題有沒有辦法克服"},{"start":9204.963,"end":9232.152,"text":"我們盡量把這個半班施工因為航廈還是營運我們盡量來做我瞭解委員剛剛講其實也是我們在思考的就是說如何讓所有的工程在進行中降低對營運的影響甚至它發展的影響好 局長你知道我意思嗎這個部分如果你沒有現在就開始想我就告訴你16年後我就是阿國永我就路來路這三條線就跑出來了所以你現在就要開始去著手思考我今天提的這些問題"},{"start":9233.206,"end":9260.126,"text":"你如何去解決然後提早因應這些問題的產生我講外資航空要過夜是沒那麼簡單啦國際業者要有航空機器也沒那麼簡單啦你真的沒想我這16年就是第一我就在那邊死在那邊嘛我沒有成長的空間沒有替代的空間沒有怎麼樣去彌補這個問題產生我有任何解決的方案"},{"start":9261.563,"end":9290.123,"text":"這樣我一十兩年就後裔了是不是其實不會就就那麼那個當然啦我們不會讓他下滑我們會預作準備會維持他目前的營運我就是先把這個問題點出來我想局長比我還內行局長也知道這個問題啦那部長可能還不是那麼清楚那為什麼要在這裡問為什麼要在這裡讓部長也知道"},{"start":9291.487,"end":9305.412,"text":"那當然要給局長一點壓力啦這個問題你不解決就是問題一定要想個辦法因為幫忙事關所以我都沒辦法我兩手一攤那我就覺得"},{"start":9306.345,"end":9319.86,"text":"不行做工程一定要就是長遠要思考我們希望能夠邊改邊發展對然後也要把解放也想出來比如說你看那個人家其他的機場你看這哈羅基基的這有嗎這新加坡的啦"},{"start":9323.183,"end":9342.877,"text":"加上這個卡打你看人家機場都會想說我16年後或者是我在這幾年我怎麼樣去增加這些東西你包括泰國你看他們現在可以少連免登機站就是主要機場清邁4年完成目標24"},{"start":9344.525,"end":9359.159,"text":"小石新加坡現在可以第一個免護照通關系統阿高雄機場、台北機場、松山機場、甘霧阿我高雄機場現在在改造、改建我這些東西、先進的東西我要先收進來"},{"start":9363.636,"end":9385.604,"text":"所以你看包括所有的其他額外的service那當然就是說我曾經邀求過美食街交通局旅館我也知道民航局有在思考但是呢現在我可能希望你們思考更多啦是可以做的因為說實在這12年後一個新的基金完成這半年半年慢慢思考我如果沒有想到這個問題想去放到時候出來的東西我沒有"},{"start":9389.239,"end":9411.727,"text":"你所提醒的這個美食街的部分有在盤點空間目前正在盤點它裡面的機場的空間如果盤點出來之後那就看有沒有常常願意進駐我今天提這兩個基點的圖案部長有跟交通部看就是說你是在跟世界比較包括你看這個少年免簽證這現在不是很困難"},{"start":9413.206,"end":9432.385,"text":"現在AI辨識系統就已經很好的了,其他國家都沒辦法,泰國也沒辦法做,我們台灣AI算是比人更強的地方,更有可能沒辦法做所以就是說,今天航線的問題我沒時間講了,我先講到這裡啦,就是說我希望說,我們真的做事情都要想前行啦"},{"start":9434.566,"end":9449.117,"text":"我相信部長年輕有為我沒有參與政策你還在政策界所以你要看比我更久我們在看前面就是說我12年後我也70歲了但是我們現在開始看12年後的問題我們現在開始一項一項要去最起碼做到12年後完成以後我們變成國際性人偶遇的事情我們要有這個報復"},{"start":9462.239,"end":9462.999,"text":"接下來有請林沛翔委員發言"},{"start":9499.244,"end":9501.487,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請陳世凱部長跟我們樓基的楊董事長"},{"start":9515.918,"end":9535.247,"text":"部長、董事長我在看我們今天的報告的時候我覺得我看到的是一個充滿的企圖心甚至野心的桃園機場公司喔因為呢從2024年我們看到的這個預算是我們是負22億到2025年我們居然就可以正收60億"},{"start":9537.762,"end":9549.912,"text":"這句話表示說我們中間還要付15億的所得稅這個是預算書裡面都寫的再包括說等於是如果我們這樣精算起來的話在一年之間桃園機場會成長率獲利成長率高達400%那我想請問一下我們怎麼做到這個事情啊這個聽起來一年之內從負債22億直接跳到正資產60億收入請問怎麼做到跟委員報告"},{"start":9567.97,"end":9585.655,"text":"今年就已經轉正了所以今年稅前的營運大概估計會到七八十億好 那想請問一下我們今年人次大概多少我們今年桃園機場的人總人次多少大概會4400多萬上關到4500萬那2023年呢"},{"start":9593.337,"end":9598.423,"text":"3535那是實際的數量實際的數量所以1月到7月我們拿到的數字是多少到底是2700萬還是1500萬的人次"},{"start":9602.233,"end":9611.523,"text":"因為我現在這邊有兩份報告完全資料不一樣從今年1月到7月桃園機場到底是15000萬人次還是2700萬人次應該不只1500萬2700萬人次好那我想請問中間我們台灣現在講說750萬的觀光人次對吧那中間經過桃園機場有多少"},{"start":9626.161,"end":9635.734,"text":"呃 這裡面因為我們的旅客人數裡頭有包括觀光跟我們國內的建築那可能詳細的數字我們還在分析那個750萬國外觀光客裡面多少來自從桃園機場轉機的或者從桃園機場來台灣的轉機的旅客大概300、400萬左右"},{"start":9643.035,"end":9669.395,"text":"所以那我想請問 為什麼請部長上來想請問那明年的觀光人數 觀光人次預計是多少今年1200萬很可惜的沒法達標那今年差不多到最後應該是750萬左右那明年呢 現在就應該準備明年的報告委員如果要說設定明年的目標的話我跟觀光署他們的說法是說我們希望今年沒有達到的目標今年他們設定是1000萬沒有達到的目標我希望明年可以達到1000還是1200"},{"start":9671.076,"end":9689.822,"text":"他們今年有修正到1000萬我希望今年的這個1000萬沒有達標明年就要達標要做到明年的這個1000萬的目標據我所知道據我所查到的資料來講的話我記得桃園機場差不多有全臺灣差不多九成到九成五左右的國際旅客都會到桃園機場來入境"},{"start":9691.883,"end":9714.618,"text":"那如果是這樣講的話那目前來講桃園機場以這個數字來推的話也是相當是差不多720萬到700萬都是所以變成桃園機場目前的你說現在多少幾萬人次44004000多跟委員報告明天可能是我們超過4000萬的日子就今年對所以變成說要再多加700萬"},{"start":9715.902,"end":9737.216,"text":"到今年的年底4400萬是總運量那到今年的年底我們本來定的目標是4500萬那現在這個明天如果到達4000萬可能到年底跟4500萬的差距是相當小的那有可能會超過但是因為那個要看後面的這個時段明年你們的預算4723那這數字我想請問怎麼來的"},{"start":9742.359,"end":9761.155,"text":"只是因為當初2019年的時候因為醞釀到這個程度所以你們就設定這個程度嗎不是我們因為疫情之後掉下來以後開始在復甦階段那復甦階段那是很難預估的所以我們在早期的時候剛開始復甦的時候速度會比較快那其他的國際機場我們也看到他們的統計數字"},{"start":9762.296,"end":9785.141,"text":"慢慢的就會減緩那我們希望明年的4723是我們現在定的目標但是在疫情之前我們的4868、69是我們曾經到達的高點那我們的自己努力的目標是要4869是歷年來最高了對那我們現在自己內部的努力目標是希望能夠百分之百的恢復但是這個要還有一些需要待觀察的地方"},{"start":9785.738,"end":9790.542,"text":"以目前的進度估算我們是在2027年開始運轉所以工程的施工目前正在趕工當中我們在2026年希望能夠工程完工那有半年的時間要有一個施運轉的階段"},{"start":9814.778,"end":9827.649,"text":"所以變成是說在20如果說你們要能夠確切能夠破所謂的4869這個障礙的話可能要等到2027年才可以如果明年的4723可以達到後年4869就一定會破"},{"start":9829.229,"end":9854.22,"text":"不過如果這樣同時之間那變成是觀光人數觀光人次來台的觀光人次你們也要變成是這邊就布裡面也要因為現在旅客也要增加然後當然我們整體的運量也要增加其實第二個因為本席曾經在國外留學也在國外任職過所以我知道有一塊似乎是交通部也好還是桃機我不知道有沒有考慮過有關大型的國際會議中心在機場附近這個構想有這個構想過嗎"},{"start":9857.698,"end":9886.288,"text":"因為臺灣的利益位置剛好是在亞洲的東亞的中心點那其實如果說像說我知道香港、上海、東京當然他們是因為自己有自己的產業但是似乎對於大型會議中心最後面我們都必須到臺北像是不管是世貿也好還是南港展覽館也好去辦上大型會議中心但是如果可以省掉這半個小時到一個小時的車程直接把大型會議中心留在機場附近或者是中小型的會議室留在機場附近是不是有更好的"},{"start":9886.588,"end":9907.13,"text":"是不是會有更好的發展呢是 報告委員您的這個想法其實非常的好那淘汰公司我剛剛有詢問他們也確實有在做這樣的我們也有在評估範圍裡面但是這個還沒有做定案因為是這樣講就是說如果說大型會議像說NVIDIA那個黃仁勳來的時候的確需要大型的場館但是很多時候只是兩邊忽然需要見個面"},{"start":9908.231,"end":9927.569,"text":"那其實這樣的客源是有的而只是過來開會的客源以前我記得兩岸相對比較緩和的時候那時候我們國際會議也比較多那當然我這邊也必須強調都上次我提過的關職航點如果能恢復的話會對於說這個兩岸的客源不管是觀光客還是台商回來會方便很多但是同時"},{"start":9928.109,"end":9952.758,"text":"但是另外一方面如果說他們並不是要直接進來臺灣並不想說直接到世貿而是單純的在一個點在這個機場附近如果能夠見面讓他們能夠實質上展開會議的話或許對於我們對他們來講是非常方便辨明的事情但是對我們來講是一個很好的經驗開拓部長您認為呢是我認為這個是非常正面的一個"},{"start":9954.458,"end":9974.909,"text":"該做的事那桃機公司也確實是在考慮這件事只是現在還沒有定案因為我們桃園機場是我們的主要機場主要機場旁邊應該要有會展中心或者是會議中心的這個設置其實對很多的國際旅客來講會是一個方便的事情那這個部分桃機公司也確實有在研議那之後研議的狀況可能也把委員的建議"},{"start":9975.689,"end":9991.998,"text":"我為什麼特別提這一塊就是說其實如果我記得像其他的機場公司經營的時候在有關客運上面來講很重要的一塊不會只有是說一般來的觀光客或者是其他來這邊因為老實講shopping這個東西基本上是因為你在這個"},{"start":9993.579,"end":10014.04,"text":"顧客的這個旅客的習慣上面你必須在機場附近久所以你會在那邊是另外一種附加價值出來的商城但是如果說我們講到會議中心的話會有人因為台灣的地理位置環境或因為轉機的方便而特地跑來這邊開個會然後之後再離開我覺得既然有這塊商機我在國外看過有這樣的進行的話"},{"start":10015.521,"end":10036.691,"text":"其實桃園機場公司既然現在已經是公司化經營以盈利為主的話其實這一塊商機就不應該放過或許這樣可以一方面增加我們人次一方面增加我們的獲利能力是沒有錯委員的建議非常的好那桃機公司這邊也會做研究然後之後再跟委員報告他們研究跟討論的過程好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝林委員接下來有請游浩委員發言"},{"start":10058.259,"end":10059.586,"text":"謝謝趙偉那有請部長好陳部長"},{"start":10067.568,"end":10094.957,"text":"好部長好那部長就是剛才延續許多委員在質詢請教這個大家現在四方十二強那在這次協調班機主要是希望能夠擴大這個加大這個型號能夠讓更多的我們的臺灣的球迷啊能夠去日本那有提到就是臺灣機場的飛日本有剛才有委員關心高雄飛日本那我想問一下"},{"start":10095.757,"end":10117.071,"text":"第一就是中台灣中張頭有沒有辦法增加班次或是能夠增加更多的球迷在中台灣可以出發以及包括目前因為時間也快到了那我是不是想說就是北中台這個目前的增加的班級以及班級的載客數是不是可以再重新說一下尤其包含中台灣"},{"start":10118.192,"end":10129.683,"text":"報告委員其實這幾天民航局在協調的過程當中是跟各航空公司都在協調希望能夠增加臺灣飛到東京的運量所以包含北、中、南都有去協調目前為止"},{"start":10133.39,"end":10152.598,"text":"目前為止只有桃園我們目前華航公司幫忙把那個航班的這個飛機把它加大所以增加了不少的座位包含圍城的部分其實華航公司也非常幫忙但是目前委員比較關心的是臺中機場臺中機場它目前沒有飛成田的"},{"start":10153.218,"end":10158.962,"text":"那接著的話簡短的請部長回應一下就是新聞報導這承包第三航廈能源中心案東元電經總經理涉案列被告那地檢署18日發動第二波偵查作為"},{"start":10183.078,"end":10211.353,"text":"那就想是不是讓部長跟就是機場公司這邊簡短回應立場跟以及對於第三航廈的進度還民眾擔心會不會有影響報告委員目前我有在新聞上面看到這個案子那我想一切就是依法來辦理啦如果有違法的事證有違法的事情我們完全就是配合司法單位的辦理那我相信淘氣公司也都配合司法單位的這個調查這個部分沒有問題"},{"start":10212.233,"end":10235.104,"text":"有違法一定要抓那另外就是針對進度的部分我目前聽到桃機公司給我的訊息是目前我們北郎廳的進度是到明年年中我們的北郎廳可能就可以做好那我們整體的這個三行下的這個建制包含南郎廳的部分大概要到115年的年底那我們希望在116年也就是2027年可以來正式來營運"},{"start":10236.8,"end":10263.913,"text":"好那因為這個議題因為現在就在偵查階段那所以還是希望交通部本於這個我們能夠讓第三航廈再讓我們的國際能見度更加的提升所以在這個進度上跟品質上那還是請交通部務必要嚴格的把關是是委員可以補充一下嗎請這個案子跟桃園機場公司有關的是這兩家廠商"},{"start":10264.813,"end":10284.846,"text":"他們的工程正義的這個問題是我們航空機場的工程但是是他們兩家因為一個是上游一個是舊出他們之間的糾紛那他們所承接的這件工程目前的工程進度是超前以現況來講我們沒有什麼影響所以這是兩件事情OK那也是讓能夠有機會回應"},{"start":10286.007,"end":10314.818,"text":"好那接著延續的剛才有提到的就是寵物開放寵物進客艙那本期想要直接就教的是之前有提到的時候已經有做一個溝通那包括國內的國際相關航空公司也有在做討論那想要直接請尖短回答一下那何時可以開放以及目前在溝通的航空業者航空公司有哪家是支持哪家反對那以及有沒有相關的一個評估報告"},{"start":10315.638,"end":10338.009,"text":"那一起包括溝通的一個成果何時可以開放我是不是請何局長好不好好 跟委員報告已經初步溝通然後他們的評估報告其實有陸續進來評估的說明那這部分民航局還在會診中那主要業者的意見大概就是說寵物的如何讓他就是說他的處理如何就是包含他要用什麼樣的"},{"start":10340.752,"end":10356.907,"text":"這是寵物的處理然後再來就是一個航空器本身的處理還有再包含這一個其他旅客的意見那因為意見進來之後呢其實業者評估來講他們初步來講依據他們過往載運這個導盲犬的部分的一個經驗來講他們認為目前都還是要審慎評估這個部分沒有一個具體說"},{"start":10363.653,"end":10387.298,"text":"那局長因為時間有限那我也知道民航局是很用心啦那我還是希望說可以給本席集通交通委員會的委員相關的這些相關的一個評估報告或是一個內容那因為大家都希望不管是活體或是包括毛小孩上飛機的權益但是因為各家業者目前資料顯示是態度不同"},{"start":10387.958,"end":10411.213,"text":"那我們希望這一件事情來講的話我們民眾的追蹤的認知可以不是停於在溝通階段而是說有一個具體的成果甚至這個讓民眾有知的權利那哪些航空業者他們是正向支持可以有這個做這段航空是可以帶毛小孩的那哪些是不行的其實我覺得至少要讓民眾能夠清楚知道"},{"start":10411.593,"end":10421.951,"text":"目前來講他們的態度就是暫時都不會提供目前來講他們認為他們相關的這一些還沒有完備之前是沒辦法提供"},{"start":10422.469,"end":10441.774,"text":"好 那我想說那就是一個報告給交通委員會是 謝謝好 那最後在這個標行李箱在基產大廳穿梭那這個電動行李箱的管制那之前部長有提到目前是各航空公司的規定那時候本席有提到希望交通部來主導這個規範"},{"start":10443.294,"end":10460.68,"text":"那我們看到這個機場公司桃機其實在經營上是用心啦評比上我們繼續來努力啦那所以直接要就交部長那今天桃機公司在這邊那這個主導的規範那是不是在今天可以做一個定調"},{"start":10461.696,"end":10466.38,"text":"是 這個部分齁 機場的規範可能由桃機公司他們來討論啦但上機的規範這個是有國際規範的尤其是離公司的部分在平常的這個行李上機都沒問題但是在電動行李廂在在機場奔馳的這種狀況來講"},{"start":10479.508,"end":10500.695,"text":"跟委員報告有關在機場的部分因為我們目前來講初步先用券的因為十幾個機場都一樣沒有一個硬性的規定那我們現在民航局會邀請這個航警局等相關單位來共同來研商是不是有要增訂或修訂相關規定的必要那是不是在早一個月之內能夠有一個相關的結論來給交通委員會的委員我們盡速來演繹一個辦法好"},{"start":10504.176,"end":10523.374,"text":"那最後的話本席還是針對今天的預算以及包括在無人機的部分是不是想請部長也直接說明一下目前交通部在未來無人機產業在您在部長任內以及希望民航局還在發展無人機的一個願景監導回答即可好"},{"start":10524.054,"end":10539.473,"text":"報告委員無人機的發展是未來的趨勢所以在交通部的部分無論是法規面或者是制度面我們該修的部分一定會把它修好讓大家未來在使用無人機不管是你要考照也好或者是使用也好有一定的規範讓大家可以依循"},{"start":10540.074,"end":10561.768,"text":"部長你以前玩過無人機嗎我自己沒玩過有那種很小台小朋友在玩有玩過對那我覺得有機會的話就是民航局應該跟部長來針對無人機的部分來做一些研究那未來來講因為在交通部相關的不管交通運輸其實現在各行各業其實都有應用無人機的實力那我在想其實在民航局的這個"},{"start":10562.568,"end":10562.688,"text":"好 這個我會加強了解 謝謝"},{"start":10589.09,"end":10593.033,"text":"好 謝謝游委員接下來有請何欣淳委員發言謝謝主席 謝謝趙偉我們是請陳部長以及我們桃基的楊董事長楊董事長"},{"start":10612.086,"end":10619.302,"text":"謝謝部長好很高興我相信你也喜歡棒球那世界棒球十二強賽臺灣隊"},{"start":10622.452,"end":10648.553,"text":"今年的表現是有史以來最棒的一次那前幾天蔡吉昌是我們中職的會長那他也在我們這個會議室也在質詢希望呢像很多委員一樣在關心去東京的這個包機或者是去東京的這個位置可不可以再多一點那確實你剛有提到桃園飛東京有但是呢台中沒有因為本來就沒有這個航線"},{"start":10649.613,"end":10664.839,"text":"所以我還是要跟油耗委員一樣這不分顏色還是要為中台灣的民眾再爭取一下希望我們能夠再繼續努力那我相信蔡其昌會長也是我們蔡其昌委員也會積極的要求希望我們清泉崗機場、國際機場、台中能夠飛往日本的能夠成型"},{"start":10674.022,"end":10696.828,"text":"這第一個那我剛剛講的這一次十二強賽在我們蔡其昌會長聚光爵偉我相信這一次的比賽的表現是非常的好讓我們國人都非常的驚豔而且呢大大的掌聲那我知道我們昨天出發去東京的時候我們給他最高規格的一個灑水門禮那我現在要講的是"},{"start":10698.388,"end":10725.827,"text":"回來呢我相信他們到日本比賽也一定會繼續贏那繼續贏的情況之下民視會往前推那我們國人呢會非常的高興迎接這個史上最佳成績的這個我們臺灣隊的回來那回來我們桃集又準備好了嘛我必須講喔因為我們現在看熱烈的送他們去東京那"},{"start":10727.045,"end":10756.785,"text":"接下來繼續贏回來之後呢一定更多國人會興高采烈非常舉國歡騰的到桃園機場去迎接他們回來那第一個我想到的就是我們機場的動線第二個我想到的是停車的配置第三我們呢上次已經有奧運的這樣子的一個經驗我們很多奧運的國手得了獎牌很多代表隊回來台灣我們粉絲國人熱情的來接機喔所以呢有經驗但是呢"},{"start":10757.805,"end":10784.171,"text":"預期可預期的是如果這一次我們的十二強贏得越多場名次越好棒球隊回來的時候國人來接機的一定會更多部長有沒有準備好報告委員他們去是以英雄的方式歡送他們去那回來我們一定是用英雄的方式來迎接他們回來那淘氣公司在過去在奧運的經驗已經有了不過我認為這次的規模"},{"start":10784.531,"end":10784.551,"text":"是 呃"},{"start":10807.185,"end":10834.455,"text":"不管迎機場回來的接待歡迎的規格是一樣而且會比以往更高所以我們現在就過去的經驗跟這次很多單位都有表達用什麼方式來迎接那機場公司會全力配合包括昨天出去的時候我們也讓遊覽車直接上到我們要出境的那個樓層那這種是特別的規格那我們會用最熱忱而且是跟大家一起來歡迎他們回來"},{"start":10834.995,"end":10841.765,"text":"那所以針對他們歸國的最高規格的一個歡迎他們回來的這樣子的一個計畫規劃開始開會了嗎?開始調整動線了嗎?開始籌備了嗎?這一定要的吧?"},{"start":10850.103,"end":10867.336,"text":"我們會做好準備那因為有經驗所以有哪一些需要去做廚藝的現在就已經在思考我必須提醒喔就如同剛剛部長講的來接機的球迷一定會比奧運代表會接機的粉絲更多"},{"start":10868.437,"end":10891.996,"text":"那如果更多的情況之下那我們的機場動線、街機動線在不影響既有的這個國際、國內的旅客的權益之外那我們怎麼好好的規劃第二個停車周邊的交通那又是如何改有配套措施我覺得這個董事長真的要想啊會我全盤的思考"},{"start":10894.549,"end":10900.078,"text":"會全盤的思考那我希望可以盡早因為我們已經在等著迎接臺灣隊的勝利回來"},{"start":10903.203,"end":10930.159,"text":"那過程你們籌備的過程可不可以給我們交通委員會知道一下第二個那比照奧運我知道之前在我們淘機為台灣隊賀財所以我們有很多應援區很多特殊計畫甚至為了各單項的國手給他們應援所以讓國人可以表達他自己的心意所以支持他們那我們這一次有可以比照12強台灣隊的應援區嗎有打算嗎"},{"start":10935.299,"end":10952.14,"text":"報告委員這個應援區的部分因為時間有點短我們趕快快速來討論看要怎麼做另外我剛剛也請我們桃機公司楊董事長他們如果可以的話跟我們的職棒聯盟也就是蔡其昌委員蔡其昌會長方面大家來溝通因為當天一定有很多的球迷要來"},{"start":10953.121,"end":10972.804,"text":"對那而且是集中在一天跟奧運的狀況不一樣奧運是分很多天是那這個集中在一天的狀況底下可能光靠桃機自己去思考可能還不足我們跟這個職棒聯盟的部分來討論應援區的部分怎麼跟他們合作那球員區怎麼合作讓另外球迷區看要怎麼處理會比較完善大家一起來討論"},{"start":10973.425,"end":10991.875,"text":"對我相信蔡其昌會長有豐富的經驗可以給我們專業的意見那可以跟中職跟我們桃機合作然後把這個準備做到最好所以拜託我們國人是非常期待而且強力的加油應援接著我就要再談剩下一點點時間我之前對於這個"},{"start":10996.037,"end":11017.886,"text":"空服員的一個服裝上次就一直很關心非常安全最重要服裝其實是在展現他的專業還有方便他在飛機上的一個工作所以這才是空服員穿那個制服的重點而且我必須提醒部長你看一下包括你們民航局"},{"start":11018.786,"end":11023.73,"text":"自己在這個網頁上都會跟國人宣導說打擊時怎樣的穿著"},{"start":11026.71,"end":11031.872,"text":"因為一旦發生了任何的問題逃生乘客自身的安全是最重要的所以他的肢體必須要靈活的活動能夠最好的應變措施"},{"start":11051.941,"end":11066.681,"text":"這是最重要的可是我們現在之前也有空服員的這個財政公會在說我們現在大部分的這個民航機的這個空服員的這個服裝要求女性穿窄裙"},{"start":11067.842,"end":11087.822,"text":"那我們透過了很多的一個提案也透過了媒體也透過了公會的爭取所以呢我知道我們開始啟動了我們不要再有性別的刻板印象我們希望能夠給女性空服員多一點的選擇那現在做到什麼程度了部長你知道嗎"},{"start":11088.662,"end":11106.155,"text":"報告委員目前像華航公司也已經有庫裝已經出來了雖然大家對於它的設計還有一些討論但它的庫裝已經有先出來了那我們的國際航空應該陸續也都會都有庫裝部長我今天就在跟你講最後這30秒就是因為我們國際航空都要慢慢來"},{"start":11107.716,"end":11132.845,"text":"對於這個服裝的改善的時程呢我跟你講我到現在還看不到你跟我講華航有設計設計預計明年要上路但是明年上路到底是明年年初還是明年年底我不知道啦那第二個虎航本來就是庫裝那新宇航空呢有承諾他也要改善也正在規劃當中可是其他的航空公司都還沒有看到欸也沒有任何時程表欸"},{"start":11134.065,"end":11141.034,"text":"我覺得這個服裝會改善了除了安全再來是性別平權而且是希望能夠讓我們的員工能夠有多元的選擇跟決策參與的機制是不是那我們已經從"},{"start":11150.807,"end":11172.377,"text":"幾年前講到現在那去年我們在本委員會正式的提案通過那呢各個航空公司都說有有有有我們會研議我們會研議那到現在我覺得這個時程還是很落後耶包括華航的部分應該已經不只是設計出來應該已經在做了啦那之所以會是明年上路的原因是因為他們的組員蠻多的"},{"start":11173.758,"end":11200.232,"text":"所以正在製作當中應該是明年年初應該就可以完成明年年初就可以開始明年年初就可以讓大家穿褲裝這個沒有問題好我希望華航給我具體的承諾然後給我順便報告好不好那其他的國際航空呢局長你自己也是女性欸我們怎麼去要求有沒有去道德勸說有這個部分這個部分長榮的部分我們已經有告訴他那現在我們會請他提出具體的時程"},{"start":11201.393,"end":11203.803,"text":"基本上應該是都有一個設計上路的時間"},{"start":11204.98,"end":11232.511,"text":"到目前為止都沒有啦華信也還沒有聽到啦也還沒有看到啦利榮跟長榮更不用說了德安也還沒有啊那我現在做這個表格是要告訴你是你要去積極要去溝通的幾家國際航空公司嘛我想連我們的國家人權委員會都已經開會而且呢也有建議有提議因為就我們多數的國際航空公司針對空服員的服役規範"},{"start":11233.852,"end":11249.225,"text":"疑是涉及性別歧視嘛 對不對我剛剛一直在講這為了國際CEDAW我們都希望以這樣子公約為基礎上可以跟國際一樣我們不要有性別刻板印象我們應該要尊重性別平權嘛"},{"start":11250.666,"end":11270.818,"text":"還有多元的選擇我覺得這個理念大家都支持那為什麼落實的時程這麼慢呢而且這也不是很難的一件事啊只是讓女性空服員多了一個選擇可以穿褲子她活動比較靈活她更能夠守護這個乘客、旅客的安全啊"},{"start":11271.738,"end":11291.903,"text":"是不是部長是沒有錯我覺得這個應該要加速啦這應該要加速啦好不好我希望今年今年年底還可以再看到有更更好的一個進步啦好不好局長加油啦身為女性我們要積極的來為我們的性別平權努力啦好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":11295.626,"end":11306.08,"text":"好 謝謝何欣淳委員拜託華航 你們反正就是剛剛那個圖片已經在做了嘛說真的有點 有點那個 有點驚嚇你知道嗎"},{"start":11310.933,"end":11338.793,"text":"沒有 講真的 到最後以後不管是女性要考華航以前很擠的情況可能會看到這個服裝再來第二個狀況是如果你做出來的服裝很少人穿剛剛幾位委員關心的那個情況尤其你右邊那個設計是大家選的右邊那個設計我常見 因為委員就是穿肚兜不過第一次看到那個圍兜兜怕流口水的我真的覺得真的很像所以現在也沒辦法改了 一定是這樣子"},{"start":11340.925,"end":11360.981,"text":"因為我看到褲裝很時尚的因為我們很時尚的是蠻多的抱歉抱歉耽誤時間接下來請林俊憲委員發言謝謝主席本期邀請我們交通部陳部長陳部長桃機公司楊董事長楊董事長部長你是我們桃機公司啊"},{"start":11369.704,"end":11383.92,"text":"他有個目標他說希望明年在機場檢探認證就所謂的綠色機場能夠再提升一級我們目前是第三級Level 3希望能夠提高到Level 4"},{"start":11385.382,"end":11411.462,"text":"因為我們今天本來就是有要討論如何落實地勤的業務所以我這兩個問題來跟部長交換一下意見我們先來看一下你如果要落實節能減碳就你要減碳的話第一個地面勤務很重要你知道我們現在的空測什麼叫空測知道嗎部長空測就是航廈以外的地方叫空測就是空間那地面上"},{"start":11412.54,"end":11422.902,"text":"的運具啦運具就是你可能有載行李的啦載人的啦或者是拖飛機的啦你知道有多少台嗎4554台運具啦那目前啦電動車的數量有多少你知道我寫給你看啦333啦油電車有109也就是說目前的機場淘機裡面的空測運具"},{"start":11438.826,"end":11458.697,"text":"地面的運具全部有4500多台只有不到10%是所謂的綠能車輛如果你淘機又自己定一個目標他說2030年他希望運具電動化能夠達到50%有可能嗎我再跟你來探討"},{"start":11460.168,"end":11484.144,"text":"那你第一個先把這些運具你如果把它電動化、綠能化這很重要這幾千台在地面每天都排放碳因為他們都是幾乎都是柴油動力的嘛那目前淘機要開始改為如果你要求地勤的這些運具要用電動的話那電動車那你需要什麼你需要充電樁嗎"},{"start":11486.539,"end":11508.355,"text":"過去民航局曾經協助推動民航局第一個設立充電樁第二個電費要補助我們來看一下如果桃機都自己定一個目標了現在的充電樁有多少台我給部長看一下現在有43座充電樁那是108年設立的"},{"start":11512.506,"end":11530.229,"text":"那接下來的109年到113年到今年設立多少零啦過去5年來連一具充電樁都沒有增加啦那現在目標定到明年他說明年要增設6座只有6座喔那淘汰既有19座"},{"start":11532.401,"end":11542.368,"text":"那你知道目前設立的這些充電樁把一台車輛既有現在桃機在跑的那個車輛充飽電要多久你知道嗎要8小時到10小時所以它屬於慢充全部都是慢充啦桃機公司現有的充電樁全部都是慢充充飽一台電動車輛運具啦要8到10個小時那你說"},{"start":11563.739,"end":11584.898,"text":"現在在基調公司的三家地勤現在都有嘛 桃勤 桃勤可以做航空啦第二個 新宇也有 長榮也有他們怎麼會願意做呢然後電費補助也取消那充電樁啊 很貴耶一基頭要一百萬啦 如果你效率高一點的話"},{"start":11586.479,"end":11601.229,"text":"那你現在民進黨的補助有沒有啦那你也不去設充電樁啦電位補助有沒有而且啊電路還沒有你如果地勤業者你要自己設立電路那他們怎麼會有意願那怎麼達到所謂的"},{"start":11606.96,"end":11625.246,"text":"明年綠色機場還要升級這個目標做得到嗎也就是說我的主題就是你桃機想要取得綠能機場的升級那麼你要把地勤業務把機場所有的在裡面營運的都要當作你的夥伴"},{"start":11626.956,"end":11647.028,"text":"而不是把減碳的責任推給他們自己去享受減碳機場升級的美名所謂的你要把地勤業務納為夥伴像華航華航最近就跟淘寢的費用協商好了這要肯定一下華航他們20幾年來費用都沒有調整"},{"start":11651.21,"end":11659.415,"text":"那這樣地勤公司他哪有資源哪有經費去提升他該有的服務和設備嘛那現在淘氣公司也是啊"},{"start":11660.694,"end":11685.514,"text":"那部長回答一次楊董事長報告委員在建制的過程當中桃機公司的策略我這樣聽起來應該是比較主要是溝通這些地勤公司他們自己去建制在裡頭的在他們裡面的讓他們自己去建制那這個部分委員的意思應該是希望說我們政府應該要更甚至是桃機公司要有更大的補助或者是誘因讓他們願意去改成電動化"},{"start":11687.035,"end":11693.365,"text":"你經費上你電費有沒有補助充電座你叫他自己設他還沒有電力電力系統也沒有"},{"start":11697.179,"end":11700.341,"text":"跟委員報告這個是一個必須要做的事情那怎麼樣加快腳步現在正在進行"},{"start":11718.49,"end":11744.032,"text":"那第二個就是剛剛我們看到的這個現有的43座的充電窗都是桃集公司的充電窗是慢充的沒有錯我們現在第一個目標是現有的慢充要改成快充那第二個就是我們的三行下目前的建設計畫裡面也有帶26座的這個快充另外就是包括業者的部分業者的部分其實他自己本身的廠房他也有這些機具要停放的地方我們也希望那你們從來沒有坐下來談啊"},{"start":11744.973,"end":11761.587,"text":"你都在那裡說話聽,你沒有跟他們說過而且部長,一共43座慢充要改為快充,明年一年才改6座,你要分幾年啊?對不對?速度要加快你只有6座,那你剩下的幾十座也沒有人要用,充一台車要充8小時到11小時在現在沒有辦法,大家不願意用,沒錯夕陽下山還在充欸"},{"start":11768.923,"end":11796.503,"text":"那我再請教這個部分我們來加速電路有沒有問題啦就電的供應有沒有問題現況來講是沒有問題沒有問題那我請教你說淘機供電量沒有問題那我請教長榮地勤最近他要買10台電源機組他要給飛機用那這個電源機組就是他要有一種像這電池的電力機"},{"start":11799.087,"end":11827.593,"text":"他要用買他要買電的啦淘氣公司說電不夠啦有沒有這件事情所以長榮最近要買他只好買再回去買柴油引擎的發電機啊是不是這樣我想這部分我還不完全清楚你不完全清楚我們回去以後會馬上查那以現況來講因為淘氣現在的第三航廈正在做長榮要買10台我再跟你講他買這個就是要回機用的"},{"start":11828.991,"end":11850.092,"text":"阿你現在往綠能機場走他要買電池的發電機我那邊就是用電池在發電的阿要回頭去買柴油發電因為投機工業既定的電沒夠阿你剛才跟我說電能工業沒有問題那到底是那他為什麼買柴油的"},{"start":11852.067,"end":11877.771,"text":"這個回去以後馬上查那在電的供應上面我們會來協調因為台電公司你不能只講你明年要升級你是不是要升級啊你能這個你能這個地勤公司他要他要他要用買電子的發電機你就沒辦法買啊你又叫他回去買柴油對不對連最基本的充電樁你也沒有然後你要改四十幾座你明年才要改六座"},{"start":11879.986,"end":11880.106,"text":"謝謝林委員"},{"start":11903.171,"end":11928.221,"text":"接下來有請蔡其昌委員蔡其昌蔡其昌委員不在接下來請陳雪生委員發言好謝謝主席是不是請我們部長陳部長還有華航謝董謝董事長好華航謝董事長何局長"},{"start":11929.724,"end":11935.267,"text":"民用航空局局長和機場公司楊董謝謝機場公司楊董一起機場公司楊董市長部長最近華信有蠻好的表現我首先要謝謝,昨天我又跟謝董事長打個電話他確定,如果油料的問題解決"},{"start":11958.427,"end":11985.553,"text":"落地費本來就不要合計上你看看奇怪相關的費用能夠減免減免一點為什麼?因為謝董事長有這個勇氣回答我這個問題那表示什麼?表示說希望虧損能夠降到最少是不是虧損我們不知道包機完了以後可能會有虧損可能會有盈餘也很難說但是我們已經致電國防部希望國防部的軍人"},{"start":11987.137,"end":12003.412,"text":"他們有八百多個人,三分之一休假起碼三百多個人每個禮拜可以飛到高雄去往返對我們軍人子弟來講也是一個福音所以謝謝我們華航、謝董事長好不好今天在這邊謝董事長你講個話好不好,華信董事長你講個話好不好還是請華信來講"},{"start":12013.515,"end":12027.241,"text":"主席委員我想提供交通運輸這個是我們航空公司的天職所以我們假如能夠克服困難的話我們一定會盡量促成謝謝"},{"start":12028.882,"end":12050.853,"text":"好啦謝謝華信董事長好不好那何局長你要感謝他們協助啊當然你出的力量很大因為何局長為了這個事情幾天睡不著覺打電話給我他學生大哥拜託一下這個事情怎麼辦他非常大的壓力齁但是現在謝董這邊跟華信這邊也解決問題了齁"},{"start":12052.826,"end":12081.396,"text":"那個我想如果航空公司願意提供運能來這條線服務,我們當然是樂觀其成那有剛剛委員提到的這個減免的部分,其實在南竿機場就是減免能夠減免就多減免嘛對,那至於其他的一些相關費用我們再來解釋一下其實這個也算守航,如果實在虧損的話謝董我想我會協助你們,鄉民安局看看要適當的錢好不好部長,我看你今天面帶笑容啊"},{"start":12084.574,"end":12103.428,"text":"聽委員說到好消息我當然就面帶笑容我聽你們也要努力啊何局長是非常努力啦他非常精進業業當然民航局全體的同仁在他領導之下當然OK的啦我知道他們非常努力好不好那謝總請回好不好何局長這邊當然沒話講交通部"},{"start":12108.584,"end":12133.882,"text":"其實部長你也很幸福很幸運你底下的這些局每個人能力都非常的強都非常的強你看民航局除了何局長之外還有方副局長非常優秀有機會你要提一下我沒有那個權利因為他幹了非常的久好那麼接下來要提什麼機場公司楊棟"},{"start":12136.038,"end":12148.868,"text":"您的表現也是非常好,機場公司尤其第三航廈非常辛苦、非常努力這個下面同仁相親力也非常強但現在有個問題,你看這個圖片,這個場景部長、何局長、楊董你們看一下這個圖片這是入鏡,不是出鏡"},{"start":12163.567,"end":12190.368,"text":"出境檢查出境檢查很嚴格入境檢查更嚴格出去以後還有狗啊還有防疫狗啊兩道關卡再來這入境檢查我給各位看一下今年的暑假的場景再下來這是什麼地方這什麼地方部長"},{"start":12193.917,"end":12220.393,"text":"部長你看看這是什麼地方?入境的地方全世界你到每個機場有沒有看到這樣的場景?全世界?連中國大陸在內?入境有沒有這樣的場景?你看過沒有?這奇蹟欸這奇蹟啊這奇蹟啊排隊排多久你知道嗎?國人、觀光客從國外回來"},{"start":12222.56,"end":12246.59,"text":"從國外回來興高采烈很興奮到家了到家以後勒對不起啊沒那麼快排隊半個鐘頭以上半個鐘頭以上我問過農委會啊當然農委會的權責啦農委會說哎呀現在還有百分之多少還有多少人我說你抓到幾個嘛牛肉豬肉狗肉的嘛你抓到幾個到底嘛沒有啊"},{"start":12247.688,"end":12274.243,"text":"很少很少,微乎其微,個位數十幾位數十幾位啦那外面有狗啦豬肉竟然要罰十萬、二十萬、一百萬耶是不是在這麼嚴格的處分之下還有人敢帶進來嗎你說他神經病啊就不小心帶進來的啦不會故意去搞這個事情有必要這樣子玩嗎"},{"start":12276.893,"end":12302.088,"text":"我找過民航局找過農委會廠商馬上就來找我了關山勾結我跟你講關山勾結啊絕對是關山勾結你們在座你們同意嗎你們回國的時候是這樣排隊你們同意不同意你們同意不同意你們同意的請舉手同意這樣做的請舉手沒半個人舉手啊你看我們在場的委員一樣好"},{"start":12303.598,"end":12326.169,"text":"包含召委包含我們交通部所屬單位沒有人舉手啊部長你看得下去嗎我們以服務為導向嘛我們也希望速度可以快一點不是快一點啦這個快不得沒得快一定是半個鐘頭以上這家公司也動用了不少人員在裡面那我請問部長何局長"},{"start":12329.608,"end":12337.055,"text":"我們各個港口國際港口國際的港口機場除了桃園機場這樣做還有哪個機場這樣做請你告訴我"},{"start":12339.773,"end":12367.307,"text":"你要破口的話,松山也破口啦高雄也破口啊,你們也來這樣搞好了其實每個機場都是這個防檢局他們做同樣的一個檢疫的方式那我想桃機這邊因為旅客比較多然後它的入境長廊的問題所以可能排隊可能會比較多我幫你一個忙好不好我把防檢局這方面的預算全部砍掉個人主張所有的人事費、服務費什麼費"},{"start":12368.905,"end":12392.301,"text":"有必要這樣搞嗎我們疫情都已經過去多少年了你們來應該戴口罩啊,通通戴口罩啊我這裡就可以傳染過去了,戴口罩嘛口罩都沒戴了,連醫院這樣都解除了我們機場在搞什麼東西當然不是你們交通部管的"},{"start":12393.971,"end":12409.524,"text":"這防檢局啦,但是他檢查的過程其實可以更優化什麼過程?外面已經有狗了,外面還有人兩套阿全世界有哪個機場這樣搞的?有哪一個機場?部長?局長?沒有沒關係,你隨便講一個國家美國有這樣嗎?應該台灣比較嚴格全世界只有台灣欸"},{"start":12421.211,"end":12443.892,"text":"全世界只有台灣這樣子搞的,可以這樣搞嗎?應該要更快速更簡化,讓旅客這樣排隊不好那你在外面再搞一套好了,那孫章機場也要搞啊高雄小港機場也要搞啊,都要弄啊,不只女子,碼頭我們台北港也要弄啊,台北港也要像這樣搞啊,你們該不該?"},{"start":12445.728,"end":12473.217,"text":"你是交通部的主政單位,不可以這樣搞的所以我主張房檢局所有的預算全部刪掉莊委,你要支持個人的主張那我需要去其他委員會刪其他委員會刪?沒有,我向黨團已經提出報告了我向黨團提出報告了,我們總統要支持我的決定"},{"start":12474.622,"end":12490.719,"text":"我們董事長這是我的決定我想民進黨在座委員還沒有民進黨委員看得下去嗎?你們都沒有人投訴這民意院這是民意院你知道嗎?賴總統聽得到的話你聽聽一聽賴總統請賴總統聽一聽可以這樣搞嗎?"},{"start":12498.746,"end":12514.915,"text":"我們國員同胞罵死了,觀光客也罵死了全世界進出尤其入境沒有這樣的做法的疫情已經過去了嘛疫情的時候我們配合政府對不對大家沒有話講戴口罩李潔"},{"start":12517.061,"end":12533.076,"text":"這個檢疫規定防疫規定我們都遵守是不是量什麼發燒什麼的我們都遵守連中國大陸啊你們講那麼專制的地方沒有啊也沒這樣搞啊何局長全世界有沒有哪個國家這樣子搞法的"},{"start":12534.066,"end":12561.208,"text":"這比較特別,因為他是檢查豬肉的部分所以每個機場都一樣,因為是防檢局整個政策我強烈的提出質疑關山勾結真的,我們沒有調查權,有調查權我一定查到我跟你講我為什麼跟農委長以後馬上廠商就跑到我辦公室來跟我解說這個事情我覺得很奇怪,不是關山勾結是什麼"},{"start":12563.513,"end":12590,"text":"這是民怨,賴總統希望你聽得到行政院座院長希望你也聽得到,部長今天在這個地方我希望你向上級長官報告一下,好不好?好召委,你要支持我的主張跟決定,謝謝防疫嘛,OK什麼防疫,不是防疫防檢局防檢局好不好,我要把這預算全部刪掉謝謝謝謝委員好,謝謝陳委員"},{"start":12593.423,"end":12610.747,"text":"謝謝總委接下來有請秋洛華委員發言謝謝主席請交通部陳部長、陶基公司楊董事長陶基楊董"},{"start":12620.283,"end":12643.424,"text":"部長好、董事長好我們現在看到桃園機場在新冠疫情結束之後客運量單從今年1月到9月的旅客人數來看那1到9月旅客人數大概是3347萬那相較於去年同期的2493萬多出了854萬人次另外在貨運的部分那根據桃園"},{"start":12645.186,"end":12661.164,"text":"機場園區的鋼藥計畫預期2040年的貨運量會達402萬公噸代表機場不管是旅客還是貨運量都是增加的趨勢為了有效輸運 周邊的聯外交通必須建立完善請問董事長 淘機目前聯外道路有哪一些"},{"start":12664.092,"end":12678.84,"text":"當然最外面是國道2號然後進來以後有台15線、台4線還有當地的未來目前正在進行的這個新國道的這個國1甲、國2甲那local的部分還不算在內"},{"start":12679.5,"end":12695.595,"text":"是那目前還有那個省道台四線那南側會興建國道國二甲然後北側是國一甲那不管是國二甲還是國一甲那機場的聯外必須還是仰賴航站北路跟航站南路吧對那航站北路跟航站南路"},{"start":12696.175,"end":12710.632,"text":"往航廈必經有幾個地下道那同時通往神道台四線處也設有地下道那由於地下道的它的上方是機場的是飛機的滑行道那所以這個地下道是不可避免的設施請問部長董事長這樣的說法沒有錯吧"},{"start":12712.673,"end":12735.143,"text":"我們現在看我們2016年的時候6月3號桃園機場曾因為豪大雨的關係造成地下道淹水導致交通阻塞那也有鑑於全球氣候變遷常有瞬間的豪大雨的情形那我們就以極端的情況來說假如大量的雨水淹沒這三個地下道那造成道路中斷那部分旅客他還有那個"},{"start":12736.804,"end":12758.762,"text":"基節來做因素但還是會造成很多旅客的不便那面對這個問題部長還有董事長那桃機要來如何因應跟預防是委員所提的是如果三處都淹水的話目前的第三航廈線道計畫是有規劃的滋洪池在裡頭所以跟現在或是過去淹水的狀況會不一樣不過這個問題我們確實還會再更謹慎的再檢查一遍"},{"start":12761.707,"end":12780.246,"text":"是 董事長我們來看到下一張圖因為桃園機場它類似車站的導視月台嘛那道路的規劃也因此受限那目前只有兩條聯外道路那未來旅客逐漸增加然後還有預期的貨運量還有極端氣候的關係那桃機是不是有必要來研議第三條聯外道路的設置呢"},{"start":12782.36,"end":12801.172,"text":"這個部分目前是由部裡面這個交通這個道路單位主管機關包括國工局跟公務局在做協助那整個部裡面對第三航廈聯外交通的這個計畫是大家一起合作的目前計畫到哪裡是報告委員其實他目前的第三的聯外道路應該都已經讓我們總經理來報告"},{"start":12804.252,"end":12828.538,"text":"是我想跟委員補充報告第一個就是我們現有的主要高快速聯絡道路是在機場的西側那剛剛已經有提報就是我們目前在部裡面相關單位協助在東側的部分我們也會建立高快速系統那未來我們的航站北路跟航站南路都會配合這樣子的一個未來的系統去做連接之後道路規劃跟設計出來了嗎"},{"start":12830.118,"end":12843.69,"text":"目前國際機場已經在細設當中現在明年就會進入發包階段了OK 好了 了解好 謝謝總經理那我們再來看到這邊有請我們桃園公司的蕭總經理桃園蕭總總經理 桃園"},{"start":12853.631,"end":12869.973,"text":"機場過去曾發現有電纜被撿還有馬桶不通還有淹水的很多很多問題那今天我們不討論過去的問題我們看今年發生的問題要就教我們總經理幾個問題那以下是今年桃園機場發生的重大爭議那就本席了解"},{"start":12870.714,"end":12894.279,"text":"桃機北跑道在11月5號還有25號單數日凌晨關閉進行稅休那目前還沒有傳出有班機延誤的情況那請問部長還有總經理那剩下三天的稅休有沒有信心不會再出現像3月的時候南跑道稅休的情況在3月的時候確實有發生過一個造成一些不順暢的狀況這個部分我們在這一次的稅休之前已經有做過檢討"},{"start":12895.339,"end":12919.178,"text":"我們有特別召開會議那也拜託范總經理當這個整體的召集人所以目前為止看起來狀況都好那未來的三天我相信也應該不會出現這個問題所以部長可以掛保證?可以可以這個沒有問題那這邊要就教總經理幾個問題10月25號的時候有民眾跑到有門鎖的維修管道最後摔入出境大梯然後送醫不治請問總經理這個維修管道它有門鎖為什麼還會讓民眾喘入?"},{"start":12921.277,"end":12941.509,"text":"我是不是請范總來回答好不好好先好請范總是報告委員我想上次這個不幸的事件基本上我們的檢討因為它是這個民眾利用我們維修的一個管道一個管制門利用這個維修廠商的人員不注意的時候我們直接說你為什麼"},{"start":12941.929,"end":12958.15,"text":"那這個部分就是維修人員的管制不夠確實所以我們也依照相關的合約來檢討同時也對於有關的管制做法再更嚴格那現在內部檢討到哪裡了那對合約商的懲罰是什麼已經做處置進行罰款"},{"start":12959.235,"end":12982.857,"text":"法款所以這個報告已經出來了是那請再提供本期這個相關的資料是那接下來我們看到蕭總經理那個桃勤公司接駁車把不同航班旅客放在同一個班機上還有航勤拖車把拖行航勤的過程中有出現漏油那行李塞車民眾等了兩個半小時二航下B2的行李處理廠也發生火警這是桃勤的業務沒有錯吧"},{"start":12987.712,"end":13004.057,"text":"報告委員那個火警的部分應該不屬於是桃警的業務那是因為是設施的關係那是由誰來做管理的我們負責的是那個清理的裝卸彩的業務那"},{"start":13005.437,"end":13023.653,"text":"這個限額的管理的部分應該是屬於淘金的部分這個部分應該是不屬於我們淘金的業務那有關於那個機具漏油的部分那這個部分我們已經有針對我們類似的機具已經做一個完整的這個檢查然後再"},{"start":13024.394,"end":13028.776,"text":"有關於班機旅客等候時間過長的這個事件是因為最近的發生是在颱風期間發生的這個狀況那當天的颱風當天預報的這個"},{"start":13050.985,"end":13077.832,"text":"7月26日凌晨的班機預計只有兩個半小時根據省紀部在112年度的審核報告指出桃機公司行李運送作業未增嚴謹導致行李卸載還有入境旅客等候行李時間過長今年7月行李塞車的問題如你所說的是颱風的影響導致有密集的航班降落桃行人力只增加了13人是不是有人力不足的情況"},{"start":13079.293,"end":13099.535,"text":"報告委員當天當班的人數我們臨時有請總共有39位的員工延長工時加班來協助處理那實際上真的是班機集中的太遠了原來的預報是從12點到兩點半之前這邊請教我們桃機的董事長桃機社有ADIP系統吧"},{"start":13100.993,"end":13122.164,"text":"是 這個系統的資訊都有提供給相關單位都有提供給相關單位那怎麼還會發生但是因為這一次的那個是颱風過程颱風過程它最後在復甦的階段航機的這個原來的間距時間都跑掉了那所以淘金公司這邊在地形業務的部分在配合上面它的朝鮮部署比較困難所以依照董經理的說法不是人力不足的關係是數據不夠準確的"},{"start":13122.944,"end":13150.035,"text":"他有可能是在那個短時間之內尤其是在深夜或者是在這種離峰階段的人力那這一次的經驗之後呢我們在整個房台或者是在這種特殊情況的過程會邀請所有的相關單位尤其是地勤作業的人員包括他們的主管會先做超檢部署去做預料預判那這個問題從現在從上一次的事件發生之後已經開始做了改善所以這個問題以後發生的機率會比較少但是人力的問題依然還是一個重點"},{"start":13150.566,"end":13173.343,"text":"是也請還是要提升日後的整體效能OK好以上謝謝謝謝委員下一位登記發言的委員魯明哲委員有請魯明哲召委"},{"start":13179.161,"end":13206.352,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天發言之前我想先問一個權益問題這權益問題也不光是我啦而且是這個整個交通委員會整體的一個在立法院交通委員會它本身的一個職權的問題當然不是請主席回答那我再直接請就請問一下今天我們這個桃機桃機公司來的所有夥伴請起立一下原地起立哇 這麼多齁"},{"start":13208.035,"end":13231.381,"text":"董事長、總經理、董事長總,後面,後面有嗎?有,好,謝謝,哇,來那麼多,好,請坐下。呃,華航,華航來,好像董總都來嘛,剛剛高總是不是有來?高總,高總還坐那麼後面啊,你還往前坐啊,來三位啊,謝謝。那我們桃勤呢?今天來幾位?"},{"start":13236.452,"end":13262.771,"text":"兩位兩位嘛好我就想問一個問題這個在交通委員會我們開會是有一定的秩序不是我的不是我的希望大家遵守如果你的身份是列席官員歡迎你如果你的身份是委員委員秘書歡迎你如果你是交通委員工作人員你必須要在這裡請問一下白桃德先生先請例一下"},{"start":13265.948,"end":13276.512,"text":"請起立一下你今天來這邊的身份是什麼沒關係你在那邊回應一下就好了不做記錄嘛你今天來這邊的坐在我們交通委員會的身份是什麼你是代表誰你代表什麼你是桃群的但是你剛剛我點到桃群的時候你沒有站起來桃群只來了兩位不包含你"},{"start":13292.861,"end":13317.78,"text":"桃區有規定今天的服裝是穿運動服到場嗎今天是交通委員會一日遊嗎來玩耍的嗎你是代表董事長來是不是不是那你來幹什麼來總經理我這全問題要講清楚啦到底我們交通委員會沒位委員我們請你們來開會桃區公司你也可以說董事長、總經理誰要來誰不要來那我就請問一下"},{"start":13318.857,"end":13343.55,"text":"我們交通委員會發函請你們來開會國營事業事實上華航他根本也算半民營的那你們今天來有什麼委屈嗎就是陶晶今天來有什麼委屈就是說我們是不是沒有資格邀你們交通委員會有沒有資格邀請你們有嗎"},{"start":13347.762,"end":13355.835,"text":"有資格嗎那今天白先生來這邊代表的是桃勤還是代表誰代表他個人"},{"start":13357.644,"end":13377.481,"text":"報告委員因為我們兩位桃園到任我們時間比較短我們對這個立法院的這個環境什麼都不是很清楚所以你們今天就來兩位嘛那第三位到底今天他是準備來做什麼呢你講他是來幫我們引導這個"},{"start":13378.882,"end":13379.162,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13404.202,"end":13422.587,"text":"職務桃園公司總經理蕭國資另外一位是副總經理劉舉淵另外一位是我們行政處的JAS白濤德JAS對在我們公司裡面的職務是JAS他是JAS是所以今天JAS穿著運動服來這邊一日遊我講真的齁那我今天講今天的重點齁"},{"start":13430.599,"end":13453.7,"text":"這個 我想部長 部長你知道嗎 我為什麼講權益的問題啊請大家尊重交通委員會啦也尊重自己的身分我可能 下一次我們沒有選上會去做別的事我就不是立委了啦我來這邊幹嘛大家看如果有緣還打個招呼沒有緣的話就掰掰了啦本來就這樣嘛尊重交通委員會也尊重自己嘛本來不是這樣嗎"},{"start":13455.802,"end":13477.415,"text":"請問一下我們白先生剛剛在後面在助理群團隊講了兩套話精確的話我不太清楚邏輯第一個交通委員會有魯明哲的召委就是憑什麼可以邀請董事長、部長"},{"start":13479.278,"end":13495.703,"text":"桃園公司是國營事業交通部投資43%華航49%我們可不可以邀請其實我們社會人士都可以邀請我們有沒有資格邀請桃園公司的董事長有沒有所以有人可能有疑慮不管是我們沒有資格或者憑什麼為什麼在質疑這個問題我們交通委員會的組密"},{"start":13508.291,"end":13518.545,"text":"請問一下我們交通委員會到底有沒有這個權利資格還是我們有問題去可不可以邀請桃園的董事長可不可以"},{"start":13520.652,"end":13541.026,"text":"你能不能回應一下報告再再報告一下依照那個我們憲法67條第二項各種委員會齁立法院各種委員會得邀請政府人、人員及社會上有關係人員到會備請所以是沒問題的好沒問題齁第二段話我們聽到的更離譜啊齁所以如果我要堅持的話淘請2000位員工的工會"},{"start":13550.779,"end":13578.196,"text":"因為跟董事長關係良好不排除來這邊聲援、抗議耍流氓是吧桃園公司啊桃園公司請問一下你們員工有多少這樣我們以後不敢約你們嚇死我們了你們多少位那我不怕你好來請坐下黃航黃航你有多少位員工啊"},{"start":13580.731,"end":13600.347,"text":"好好那是好你請坐坐舒服一點所以我在想喔今天這個權益問題我就問到這裡你來這裡你已經不是立法院的助理你現在是董事長的特助大家都知道你自己也宣傳了你今天一言一行"},{"start":13601.806,"end":13617.74,"text":"你 你要傷害到如果你傷害到你的自己的董事長我覺得今天的是咎由自取不然董事長就請假就沒事了吧我有說任何一句話嗎你們還需要在後面在那邊講的風涼話在那邊嗆來嗆去嗎好"},{"start":13624.318,"end":13637.626,"text":"就這樣那現在開始今天的質詢請交通部陳部長請陳部長民航軍何局長請何局長備詢跟桃勤的我們蕭總請桃勤蕭總經理好"},{"start":13649.168,"end":13664.14,"text":"現在所有航班不管是準點甚至很多的一個情況這個以前是需要很多的機構很多的專業的領域去分析去研究我發覺現在真的不用了你知道嗎你就訂一個機票"},{"start":13664.921,"end":13687.388,"text":"你隨便跟一個網站不管國外的公司哪些第一個網站他三不五時告訴你追蹤來的班機他說來的班機delay你就預備一下這個班機也delay所以你今天的準點你已經是全都錄了但全世界看到不用你宣布報告這是第一個的概念第二個我們相關的一些服務的品質在"},{"start":13689.963,"end":13719.421,"text":"我們那班機的一個準點率我們看了一下112年按照審計部跟你們民航局提供的一個報告準點率在我們桃機的話是75.71我們鄰近的機場像香港贏我們一點點啦不算贏啦成田、張宜、新加坡、張宜機場大概贏我們2.5%到3%啦所以差距不大那何局長你覺得差距大不大1%代表多少"},{"start":13721.982,"end":13736.507,"text":"他這個1%他的母數如果以起飛的來算大概112年大概10萬架次來回到20萬了就算一半了大概10萬架次所以少1%大概是1000架次"},{"start":13737.347,"end":13756.543,"text":"一千那如果兩趴的話是兩千架次所以這個努力空間還是真的蠻大的比如說進幾個小數點真的很重要這個局長你覺得呢是委員確實你們也是這樣看待的嗎對這個都還有成長的空間都還有進步的空間好那部長呢"},{"start":13757.424,"end":13781.198,"text":"是當然如果這樣算起來是2000加次影響的人數其實相當多所以當然要再進步所以還是要精細好不好這跟考試一樣啊從念書考到六七十分比較簡單考到八十分也還可以但是你要爭取那最後的分數啊那個編輯效益那困難度是非常高的我理解所以要更多的一個努力啦齁那但是我們來看看齁"},{"start":13782.119,"end":13791.887,"text":"在審計報告我要待會問一下蕭總他就請教了今天就是討論那今天他講說一般的延誤的原因"},{"start":13794.189,"end":13813.761,"text":"整個業務原因包括了來機晚到跟飛航管制其實有蠻多的是其他地點其他國家的一個因素就不太可控我們看到現在第4個排名的是地勤的一個作業搞不好是國外的搞不好是我們的再來不一定是你的"},{"start":13814.702,"end":13837.918,"text":"可是地勤作業我們特別看了108年到112年四年之中其他的部分都努力降低多少降低一點點可是我們發覺地勤作業它是造成的延誤成長了10.8%我們請蕭總你說明一下好不好第一個審計的報告是不是事實第二個主要原因是什麼"},{"start":13841.989,"end":13860.34,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們還沒有說很清楚的了解那地勤作業方面原則上我們都是根據這個航空公司所提供的一些班機道理的時間來配合作業那如果在於"},{"start":13862.418,"end":13877.658,"text":"班機飛航管制的情況之下地勤公司對於航班正確的到離時間並不是有非常明確的訊息的情況之下我們會把人員留在機邊等候班機的運作"},{"start":13881.927,"end":13909.063,"text":"這種情況之下會造成人員調度的部分的一些困難也可能會造成這個因為人員調度困難的情況之下會造成地形作業首先第一個我必須要說其實全世界的飛機都在飛我們自己的很多的理由對於很多的國際觀光客或我們國人來去其他國家其實對他變成不重要他也沒時間聽這些理由你是屬於這個"},{"start":13911.224,"end":13929.859,"text":"什麼原因因為上班人就這麼少我也沒辦法可是因為其實人家會聽不懂但是我是建議部長跟相關單位真的去了解一下如果這個部分是單獨大幅成長的一個趨勢的話我覺得直接去值得去推敲研究提前找出解決之道這個應該要了解原因"},{"start":13931.5,"end":13946.292,"text":"我們也看到地勤的安全其實蠻重要的我們看到在108年至5年之前當時交通部次長在桃居視察的時候當時董事長是郭榮忠也是前立委在整個討論的時候他講說最大問題就是SOP"},{"start":13950.655,"end":13975.028,"text":"要SOP要遵守去避免這些問題可是我們看到108年對比今年以同期間1到10月的這個部分相對於地安這樣的一個問題不是延誤地安的問題從7件變成9件其實幅度差不多跟總期的班機的量差不多可是我們是希望說"},{"start":13976.826,"end":13986.859,"text":"有一些這種真的是人為的一些的問題我覺得這真的有沒有辦法能夠大幅的一個避免董記你再講一下好不好"},{"start":13988.828,"end":14006.519,"text":"報告委員最近我們經常在針對這個安全的問題我們在內部有提出開會那我們一直在強調安全至上不管是任何原因不管是班機有延誤有時間的壓力"},{"start":14008.76,"end":14022.255,"text":"也好一定都要按照安全的SOP來做按照機場的一些規定航空公司的一些相關的規定這個我們一直在持續的加強的要求另外我們在剛剛有提到我們做一些這個"},{"start":14023.677,"end":14027.258,"text":"因為其實飛機有時候在空中天候的因素有很多好難控的"},{"start":14048.527,"end":14062.537,"text":"人定可能不見得勝得了天可是在地勤方面我們覺得可控的因素比較多一點我們當然希望這個部分能夠有效的改善那剛剛這個我們邱委員這個也特別說了7月25號楷米颱風"},{"start":14063.638,"end":14087.914,"text":"那過了到7月26號那個深夜很多的班機可能有delay或者在那個深夜才回來我們看了一下當時我們所列出來這5個班次delay時間比較久的抵達時間大概都是深夜可能凌晨1點到2點那行李到轉盤的時間當然當時講說有些人真的等了你看經過162分鐘將近3個小時這等等的對這種特殊天候"},{"start":14094.619,"end":14117.256,"text":"這種調配是不是我們桃勤比長勤吃虧我不知道是不是私人的比較有彈性我也不清楚但是我還是要講就是對於旅客來講真的不管他是誰在處理這個我在想當天面臨這個問題的時候我們特別把你們的勤務表調出來"},{"start":14118.547,"end":14145.627,"text":"你可以自己看一下在整個危機處理的部分你們可不可以再有一些彈性在逃勤主要當然是調整出勤的時間我們也請教長勤長勤他就調整出勤時間之外協調休假人員我覺得你們應該也有做的然後請派遣公司來增調人員出勤第四協調非現場作業人員趕快你在其他單位能夠有一些沒有安全來支援"},{"start":14146.508,"end":14165.719,"text":"感覺他們的書面讓我們看到的方法比較多那我們有沒有派遣公司可以來來強力支援我們淘勤我也不清楚可是你看齁我覺得剛剛講說這個包括民航局你們很多的預測你找班你有預測啊找班的人力大幅的增加"},{"start":14166.559,"end":14191.917,"text":"你的晚班14點開始你也大幅的調整原本像平常沒事的時候大概30幾人你也調整到100人但是隔1月的夜班你知道嗎我覺得那就覺得說大概飛機那個應該沒問題可是就出了問題我覺得有些部分是預測的問題你看到你平常日平常前後9日大概就61人"},{"start":14193.683,"end":14215.925,"text":"夜班那可是你發生事情那一天你還是62人所以我是覺得齁這當然這個預測方面是怎麼回事啊是他們預測的不準嗎還是你們實在因為勞基法人動也動不了了還是你可以找跟他一樣調派遣公司來訓練服務嗎可不可以啊"},{"start":14217.538,"end":14237.935,"text":"報告委員有關於派遣公司這個部分目前因為我們跟外面的派遣公司並沒有合約的這個部分所以我們可能在這個部分我們是沒有辦法請派遣公司提示調度人員來支援部長這個部分比如說人家有彈性工具對"},{"start":14239.717,"end":14267.738,"text":"也就是說同樣飛機delay真的不是說只有華航服務的那個飛機會delay大家都有颱風嘛你說長航航空他服務的國際辦公室他也可能1點到2點到可是人家如果他平均一個小時就是比較快一點這個就是真的沒有理由啦真的沒有理由到底他的兵力不能派遣是因為會影響到勞工權利還是怎麼樣我不清楚但是值得去研究在應變的時候你要有方法"},{"start":14268.078,"end":14296.185,"text":"是 其實如果長期做得到 淘勤也應該要做得到就是說長期它的效率在應變的措施上面可以做到更有效率那淘勤就應該要學習看怎麼樣做得更有效率因為這種天災的事不是我們能夠決定什麼時候來什麼時候不來那未來這種派遣的部分或許應該要我想跟這個蕭總說那蕭董你也不用這樣來因為你們是最大的股東但是我是建議啦你們真的要"},{"start":14297.365,"end":14306.011,"text":"很多基層做上來的一些淘勤的夥伴他們從基層實在幹得很辛苦可是一到了"},{"start":14307.304,"end":14331.061,"text":"高層現在副總以前兩個副總有一個是從基層他們來的一個是你們過來的體系因為最大股東啊那你要派人我們也沒話講嘛現在大概一條龍包括了可能這個總經理啊甚至副總啊都是國外啊可能是民航大家繞一圈回來的那這種部分你真的要搭配在基層幹起來的人"},{"start":14333.242,"end":14360.502,"text":"基層幹起來的人我是覺得這個的部分你們一定要去調整而且讓桃勤這家的公司在整個員工的升遷的管道他是有盼望的我真的不要全部高層全部包掉好不好那個謝董你能不能說一下好像現在你們包的包會計啊集合啊整套都是你們訓練完的人過去我覺得這個是有打擊士氣啊哎呦麥克風壞了"},{"start":14363.618,"end":14376.655,"text":"是這樣子啦 淘勤的部分事實上他們內生的機制是有的那我們華航這邊只派一個副總在那邊事實上他那邊還有一個編制是淘勤本那個等於是他們"},{"start":14378.517,"end":14399.054,"text":"資深的人工是可以有機會升上來並沒有杜絕他們升遷的那個管道對 現在總經理、副總經理都是你們的人嘛對對不對 你們派的嘛是會計集合有一些重要的也都是你們的人那這個部分有時候剛剛總經理他可能也是總經理也是你們派來的可是這樣很難的為專業說話你知道嗎"},{"start":14401.676,"end":14426.337,"text":"他一方面又要承包你們的這個所有的Cargo也好或者客戶然後單價也是跟你們談那跟誰談談的人又是你們派來的總經理要跟你們華航去談坦白講很多的福利人力這個有點超越他們兩個的問題我希望部長關注這個問題好不好員工那個福利跟身兼的管道也能夠讓他順暢謝謝我也來了解謝謝委員"},{"start":14434.258,"end":14436.179,"text":"請交通部部長陳部長民航局局長何局長"},{"start":14461.493,"end":14463.734,"text":"我們目前至少我上任之後沒有做這樣子的討論"},{"start":14480.629,"end":14496.396,"text":"沒有這樣討論也沒有這樣的計畫嘛那所以松山機場的存在事實上它除了這個民航之外當然它也有軍事相關的用途那我就要請問一下松山機場那麼事實上因為機場的存在"},{"start":14499.838,"end":14526.52,"text":"所以它附近居民就有包含限高、限艦、禁艦相關的規定對不對就如同這個桃園機場也是一樣那麼所以長期以來我們民航局就對於這個國營航空站就有相關的補助的計畫那麼事實上大家都知道以台北市來說那麼我們很多房子都老舊"},{"start":14527.523,"end":14535.187,"text":"那麼在松山機場周邊他因為限高的規定事實上他們也有就是會影響到他們的這個都更的一些相關的計畫所以我想請問一下"},{"start":14543.732,"end":14558.46,"text":"我們松山機場如果沒有任何遷建遷移的計畫的話那麼松山機場是不是可以比照這個桃園機場給予相關的包含房屋稅跟地價稅相關的補貼報告委員這個房屋稅跟地價稅這個是地方稅那這個部分其實應該要用臺北市政府來做這方面的研議那我們民航局這邊看要怎麼樣配合我們可以來配合"},{"start":14571.641,"end":14594.932,"text":"所以因為在桃園機場的部分現在是尤其對於禁線件禁線件的房屋稅是打7折嘛 對不對那麼雖然我們現在名為所謂的好像是照應相關的補助但是事實上你們的規定裡面針對房屋稅跟地價稅是可以一於補助的嘛 對不對"},{"start":14595.994,"end":14617.112,"text":"我們沒有特別限定補助的項目嗎沒有特別限定啦但是也沒有指出說這個房屋稅跟地價稅是可以或不可以的對沒有錯所以呢在這個部分呢當然我們現在在臺北市也有一些我們地方和民意代表希望桃園機場因為對不起松山機場因為過去常常都在吵說松山機場要不要簽件"},{"start":14620.715,"end":14648.401,"text":"但是呢其實後來大家都知道松山機場簽建簡直是其實是非常非常困難而且我們也願意維持首都要有機場嘛而且它還有這個軍用機場的相關的功能所以我在這邊呢我就希望能夠在台北市他們提出有關於包含禁線建的房屋還有附近居民受到影響的房屋那麼當他們全部都已經把它做一個"},{"start":14649.281,"end":14669.782,"text":"整理跟研擬的之後我們交通部是不是也可以協助能夠讓我們搜山機場旁邊的讓這些市民他們所受到的這些影響或者他們所受到的損失允許給他們一個合理的補助部長可不可以"},{"start":14671.733,"end":14686.744,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們會納入討論就是說當臺北市政府有研議出一套辦法那民航局當然我們本來就每一年都有一些補助的經費或者是補償的經費那到時候看要怎麼討論大家一起來討論好 謝謝部長那另外其實我們也非常希望就是桃園有桃園航空城"},{"start":14694.469,"end":14705.837,"text":"那松山機場現在不簽件其實它也可以發展一個小型的航空城過去當時在好市長的任內曾經有提出一個就是松山機場的一個相關的開發計畫也就是說"},{"start":14710.16,"end":14735.205,"text":"其實松山機場的存在而不應該以去犧牲附近居民不管他都更的機會或者他有可能的開發的機會作為一個代價所以如果桃園做航空城那我們當然沒有問題但是松山機場也可以去規劃能不能做一個像小型的航空城這個部分是不是也可以請交通部能夠納入計畫來考量"},{"start":14737.685,"end":14756.75,"text":"好 我們做整體的規劃對 做整體規劃機場的周邊包含剛剛委員所提示的這個補助的部分我們做整體的討論對 然後包含它這個進線線的區域有沒有必要劃到那麼大比如說像尤其在那個機場的後面其實它等於是在臺北市來講是一個說實在連那邊公車都很少然後"},{"start":14763.852,"end":14765.654,"text":"接下來有請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":14797.76,"end":14803.845,"text":"主席有請部長還有民航局局長部長好還有局長好這個北南組在2020年1月28號舉辦這個北南組的聯合年紀那因為為了紀錄這個"},{"start":14825.657,"end":14825.877,"text":"為了這個本席"},{"start":14851.757,"end":14862.323,"text":"這個也曾經這個跟部落到臺東機場的門口來做這個抗議那本席在2021年9月27號也再次質詢當時的交通部部長也在9月29號"},{"start":14872.048,"end":14876.472,"text":"召開協調會也在2021年的10月14號發文給民航局11月3號2021年的11月3號再次的質詢"},{"start":14886.558,"end":14903.964,"text":"當時的交通部的部長當然本席也開過協調會都依法論理相關的這些這個回去之後這個民航局可以再參考把過去我質詢以及召開協調會的時候這些作為一個參考的資料"},{"start":14908.971,"end":14924.487,"text":"那在2024就是今年2月22號本席也跟會同我們北南組的鄉親到臺北高等行政法院聲援南王部落空拍機案的一個那時候要開庭"},{"start":14926.061,"end":14953.677,"text":"所以這個部分我們非常謝謝臺北高等行政法院在今年的9月19號判決撤銷訴願決定及嚴處分所以這個部分是跟我當初無論是召開協調或諮詢所採用的這些法院都採納當然現在很重要的就是"},{"start":14955.888,"end":14964.815,"text":"這個部分我再次的簡要的說因為時間的關係民用航空法這個三四條第二項"},{"start":14966.311,"end":14988.678,"text":"最主要是特別提到前兩項所定一定距離範圍由交通部會同有關機關劃定公告所以這個劃定公告你們就定了一個要點民用航空局為執行機場四周禁止、釋放有礙飛航安全物體定定這個要點"},{"start":14990.066,"end":15017.884,"text":"然後在這個要點裡面也提到這個自機場標高起算之60公尺以上高度訂了這樣的一個規定那這個高度裡面有非常不合理的地方在哪裡呢就是禁止建築的高度禁止現建的建築物的高度"},{"start":15019.871,"end":15046.576,"text":"這很高110...118.69公尺現建的我們的空拍機比這個低的低得多所以這樣的一個情形是一個不合理的地方我常常舉這個例子就在台東機場附近前面而已附近納魯灣大酒店很高我們的空拍機比這個低得多"},{"start":15048.328,"end":15076.169,"text":"然後另外就是在台東火車站附近遙控無人機飛得比這個現建高度還低所以這個都是不合理的我舉一個案例給部長還有民航局了解在花蓮有一個部落那個沙崎萊爾族一個國服部落他們要蓋部落聚會所要蓋部落聚會所"},{"start":15078.001,"end":15103.25,"text":"因為那個地方就是國防部的這個航空的一個一個航線一個航線按照國防部的規定不可以蓋那個部落聚會所因為會一個航線我就會勘了實地會勘我跟那個國防部的官員講"},{"start":15105.165,"end":15131.51,"text":"旁邊就是你們蓋的那個瞭望台他們蓋的我們的我說我們的部落機會所比這個瞭望台還低我們蓋的部落機會所比這個樹還低這樣還不能嗎他回去簽辦之後就可以了所以這個部分是有空間的有空間的尤其是"},{"start":15133.151,"end":15156.308,"text":"民用航空法在108年6月10日在立法院經過我們三讀通過之後把遙控無人機列了一個第九章之二本來沒有特別列了而且是109年3月31日施行要把它法制化"},{"start":15157.264,"end":15166.601,"text":"法治化當然這個發生是在1093月31號之前但是因為既然要法治化表示之前的有問題"},{"start":15168.747,"end":15190.878,"text":"表示之前的規定是有問題所以這個不是有空間的有解釋的空間我是老公務員30年我也不會讓公務員去違法所以這個是好好的參考我的過去的質詢跟會議記錄來作為一個妥善的處理就不要去罰我上次講的"},{"start":15191.798,"end":15217.169,"text":"不要變成交通部民航局去處罰我們原住民的部落我希望不要發生這個我們依法處理依法辦理依法辦理謝謝委員好謝謝鄭委員接下來有請邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":15225.387,"end":15227.237,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩你陳世凱部長好陳部長"},{"start":15237.625,"end":15256.673,"text":"好 部長好委員好部長 這一次中華隊前往東京那我也看到說我們協助緊急加開國際航空的班機是 把班機擴大所以增加座位是 增加座位嘛那回來也都會有讓我們中華隊的選手有最舒適的座位可以回來是 沒錯"},{"start":15257.113,"end":15267.346,"text":"那我想請教一下上個禮拜現在有沒有統計上禮拜在台灣大巨蛋打的比賽不管是韓國、日本、澳洲、古巴或多米尼加有多增加了多少的"},{"start":15268.666,"end":15292.161,"text":"人員進來到台灣來做觀光這個我沒有統計我這邊沒有統計的數字部長為什麼本席會突然這樣問你看中華隊打進東京的時候就會有很多的球迷想要一起去加油代表這就是一個很能夠push讓這一個主辦國家看到觀光亮點的機會"},{"start":15293.562,"end":15322.74,"text":"一樣嘛過去不管是你說城市有講說演唱會經濟不管是新加坡邀請到一個歌手大咖的來的時候可以帶動這整個經濟那一樣世界十二強棒球賽的時候在大巨蛋能夠打這個比賽那照理講我們應該要把握這個機會去讓很多韓國的球迷日本的球迷來台灣幫他們自己國家的球隊加油以外也順便來觀光那結果"},{"start":15323.956,"end":15346.224,"text":"你說沒有這個統計代表可能在上個禮拜打完之後我們觀光相對來講都沒有想過說這是一個好的契機會不會有點可惜這個絕對是一個好的契機那我們在球場也確實有看到各國的加油的團隊也都有來所以確實是有一些觀光客的效益這個一定是有啦那不過委員在提醒的應該是要"},{"start":15347.324,"end":15369.873,"text":"比賽之前我們先到那一個國家先去做宣傳讓大家知道利用這個機會所以本席就具體建議明年大巨蛋2月WBC世界棒球經典賽我們台灣要打資格賽沒辦法但是資格賽有三個國家包括西班牙、尼加拉瓜跟南非在2月19到2月26他們的國家代表隊會來台灣打比賽"},{"start":15373.775,"end":15394.622,"text":"那2026年正式臺灣我相信也一定可以拿到資格賽了2026年WBC世界棒球經典賽有分小組預賽跟最終的決賽2023年我們是有爭取到在臺灣小組預賽的時候就有在臺灣打那個時候是在洲際棒球場跟如果沒記錯的話應該是斗六棒球場"},{"start":15395.342,"end":15420,"text":"那一樣如果2026年未來再有這種重大大型賽事尤其是我們大家都覺得說可以一起加油的話是不是能夠拜託請觀光的同仁也一起把它納入變成是我們可以宣傳的亮點一起共同推廣不是運動的賽事就是啊這個棒鞋的事這個中華之棒的事啊這個是教育部的事這個是體育所的事沒有啊"},{"start":15420.74,"end":15439.515,"text":"其實他是可以有很多機會大家共同起來就如同這個禮拜突然間大家都要去日本所以班機也不夠住宿也暴漲那賺錢的也是日本人啊也是日本人賺到門票收入賺到飯店啊所以部長是"},{"start":15440.831,"end":15449.825,"text":"能不能未來不管明年的世界棒球健身賽、資格賽或者是2026年這種重大賽事甚至明年雙北市大運市狀運"},{"start":15452.726,"end":15477.152,"text":"臺北、新北有辦試撞運我們觀光署是中央機關但是也不要覺得說這個是地方政府的責任一起來把它納入變成是我們宣傳包裝的其中一環這樣可以嗎?是,報告委員你這個建議非常好那未來只要面對國際的賽事有吸客的能力的國際賽事我覺得觀光署應該都要主動去各個國家去做這方面的宣傳那可以吸引更多的旅客過來絕對對臺灣的觀光事業有幫助"},{"start":15478.592,"end":15497.854,"text":"尤其是他們有代表隊來打球的嘛部長另外一個部分今天當然有相關民航部分本席有看到無人機的管理我們現在預告修正無人機的管理規則要從16歲下修到14歲我可以請教一下這個動心啟念的出發點是為何"},{"start":15501.951,"end":15517.343,"text":"主要就是為了要鼓勵這個中學生就是說希望他們有一些要在學校訓練或從小就是說從這個年紀他們需要一些操作中學生就國中七八九年級我們現在有多少學校有開這樣的課程"},{"start":15518.504,"end":15530.477,"text":"或是願意想看因為7、8、9年級照理講都還是義務教育那當初我先提一下說之前無人機的駕駛的這個執照16歲的時候就已經有一些民間團體會覺得疑慮因為16歲還沒有成年"},{"start":15533.76,"end":15548.709,"text":"那如果說他操作無人機真的有什麼樣的狀況不管是說他可能是撞到破壞到或者是說真的是掉落而不順有什麼樣的一個破壞或賠償的話16歲是未成年他有可能沒有辦法負起相關責任"},{"start":15549.75,"end":15564.365,"text":"那如果說我們現在從16歲又要再下修到14歲那會不會更引發這樣的一個狀況其實主要放寬的部分是操作的學習證不是那個普通操作證或專業的所以他基本上學習證就要有專人在旁邊"},{"start":15565.006,"end":15585.409,"text":"所以也是要有教練也是要有老師就變成是說我們這14歲因為我們要釐清是現在我們看到說他的那個申請資格16歲下到14歲甚至各類操作證的校期要從兩年放寬成三年所以第一校期是放寬第二年齡是下修當然外界會有疑慮那現在還公告期"},{"start":15586.13,"end":15612.699,"text":"所以你剛剛只是確認是說你未來下修16歲變14歲但他也不是所有14歲的學生都可以他要使用要操作還是要有專人在旁邊指導所謂的放寬是因為他要學習所以要去申請這個證不是所有的學生說14歲你就都可以去操作不是是為了學習而需要的操作證那如果對這個沒興趣的人就不用來學習那學習的人就是要有專人在旁邊"},{"start":15613.539,"end":15627.193,"text":"那剛剛講的校旗就是那你這樣意思還是說就放寬14歲以上就可以去考照啊可以來學習然後就可以考照那考到照之後我們現在講說考到照之後他能不能自己就操作要18歲"},{"start":15628.325,"end":15647.824,"text":"要18歲才能操作是不是這個部分我覺得還是要再說明清楚一點因為我們有看到媒體報導以及現在公告期當然公告期完之後還會再修正是不是更嚴謹的狀況我們鼓勵學生學習的狀況但是另外一方面對於無人機的操作我們還是要有一定的一個規範標準"},{"start":15649.205,"end":15649.665,"text":"接下來有請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":15680.793,"end":15685.177,"text":"謝謝主席 馬上有請部長還有桃基董事長陳部長、楊董兩位好 之前我就關心過我們的三航廈的標案裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫李力"},{"start":15703.973,"end":15731.796,"text":"那當然我用惡名昭彰這個詞聽起來是有點重但是過去的敗行劣跡我在好幾次的質詢當中也一路追蹤下來但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪這種欺騙國人甚至騙到我們經濟部莫名其妙給他一個獎結果在美國的死機全部都是造假的公司竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的表案"},{"start":15733.186,"end":15756.053,"text":"全體國人看的是目瞪口呆這家公司到底是什麼後台後台這麼硬一直拿到莫名其妙的表案上一次有請教部長這件事部長也說你會回去查我後來就陸陸續續收到交通部的一些回函的檢討措施那我們就一樣一樣來看第一個"},{"start":15759.42,"end":15779.219,"text":"回答的是說那一次的整個招標決標評選完全合法那我看了這個結論我看了就非常的訝異就要趕快再進一步拜讀這種詐騙的廠商拿到標案是怎麼樣如果整個程序都合法還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞那問題嚴重啦"},{"start":15783.404,"end":15806.331,"text":"等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下來這種詐騙的廠商知識體大進一步看說那個時候去提出來的時機就因為要審查他的資格、他的能力、他的時機我看你們回答的內容是台鐵行控4.0"},{"start":15808.443,"end":15835.826,"text":"問題是台鐵行供4.0我之前在質詢運安會的時候運安會說的是什麼啊那東西根本不能用啊那我的問題就來了我們一個重要的標案要評選廠商前面要有時機嘛他提出來的時機啊是一個爛得不得了的時機啊連運安會的主委啊都說啊這根本不能用那所以我們在評選的時候是什麼"},{"start":15836.98,"end":15862.53,"text":"看paperwork前面只要有標案這樣就算數了部長你覺得呢委員您在提醒的這個我也覺得是有問題所以我才會認為說要再精進所以我們回覆您的內容裡面其實對於未來的評選的方式應該要再精進如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來的話我們未來必然要精進說得很好"},{"start":15863.874,"end":15890.421,"text":"今天部長在備詢的時候肯說出這的確有問題代表的是什麼最起碼還願意誠實面對問題這是非常重要的第一步誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題我們接下來才要繼續看來T3運輸系統可能部長所講的未來要精進的部分對於這一種重要的"},{"start":15891.618,"end":15919.075,"text":"系統技術譬如說行車管理系統以後要單獨評選嘛就不要全部混在一起嘛全部混在一起裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選混水摸魚就過去嘛這一點我是認同的我們再往下看這個案子啊履行到現在那個包商是分包計畫你們還沒有核定他們就對外宣稱已經核定了是有出現這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":15921.929,"end":15943.457,"text":"我所知道應該還沒核定吧對啊我知道還沒有核定嘛但是部長你看一下我附的你們的會議紀錄請告那個包商啊不要對外宣稱已經經過建造單位核定以免產生爭議嘛那你會寫這樣的文字代表的是什麼代表是他們已經在外面放話啦請告他們啊不要這樣幹"},{"start":15945.322,"end":15949.266,"text":"但我看實際上面的過程啊從2023年12月決標到現在分包計畫書到目前還在協調喔是這樣嗎"},{"start":15958.699,"end":15983.599,"text":"現在在送審當中是不是我請總經理可以可以可以那個請熟的人上來回答這個問題好了啦就是我沒有要為難部長的意思我們解決問題比較重要是跟委員報告目前這個分包計畫是由陳公司還在檢討那最近有提不是啦我現在的困惑就是從絕標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年了搞了快一年還在檢討這樣到底來得及來不及啊"},{"start":15984.564,"end":15989.948,"text":"我現在具體的問到時候時間到了這個系統真的能用嗎因為以我目前在看整個進度緩慢的不得了那為什麼會緩慢的不得了"},{"start":16014.028,"end":16041.775,"text":"因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛你在挑選的時候挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來當然後面問題一堆嘛現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊我左眼的事情啊是除了剛剛部長所講的承認有問題要檢討問題之外下一個是那目前的這個問題到底要怎麼解決那我看目前的進度是這個樣子我們再往下看"},{"start":16042.99,"end":16062.014,"text":"目前提交的車輛行車管理系統的設計文件缺乏完整系統架構也沒有充分對應到你的需求那這樣還走得下去嗎這樣還走得下去嗎國家重要的建設挑到一個爛廠商出現這樣的狀況"},{"start":16067.528,"end":16075.502,"text":"行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構也沒有辦法符合業主就是你們的需求嗎那這樣怎麼辦"},{"start":16078.044,"end":16101.861,"text":"是我想跟委員報告目前目前的這個階段是處於細部設計的階段那按照里程碑成玉公司也在上週五提出了他的細部設計的成果目前在由我們的顧問團隊審查中我們會依照這個審查的結果來進行後續的處理所以你們到目前進度都還是on schedule嗎"},{"start":16103.125,"end":16123.876,"text":"目前這個階段是按原計劃的里程碑在進行當中所以都還沒有直言對於應該這樣講他有按里程碑交出這個成果但是這個成果的好與壞我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查所以我才貼給你看嘛是9月12號的會議紀錄啊"},{"start":16126.332,"end":16138.641,"text":"提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難這全部都是你們交的文件"},{"start":16140.216,"end":16163.373,"text":"報告委員這個是9月12號是由機場公司這邊的會議所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容的品質的問題所以預先請他要做檢討那他現在是11月15號已經提出完整的結果那當然我們就會依據他的內容的品質再來做審查來我們先看齁10月29號"},{"start":16166.855,"end":16181.711,"text":"接下來有履約管理會議那就是你剛剛所講的在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查你們之前在11月19號的時候說在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差"},{"start":16183.373,"end":16209.69,"text":"跟國際上面的標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足嗎現在這些問題都解決了嗎包委員這個就是我們在歷次的一個相關會議裡面包含我們的顧問這些的意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到承運公司的當時的一個文件的品質的問題所以先跟他做預告那剛剛已經報告了他現在在上個禮拜已經把他的"},{"start":16211.01,"end":16235.747,"text":"全部的設計成果提出來現在正在由團隊做嚴格的審查當中我這樣講好了啦你們前面啊在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子後面就是一堆爛攤子我收到的檢舉是什麼我收到的檢舉是說目前這個履歷啊"},{"start":16239.702,"end":16264.767,"text":"這個詐騙廠商阿現在是要讓工程會去施壓要陳韻跟他和解是不是有收到這樣的消息嗎沒有收到這樣的消息目前陳韻是不是希望把他換成工研院目前我們有得到陳韻的一個提出的請求他要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來"},{"start":16266.69,"end":16273.739,"text":"事實上就是要工業院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦把他加進來沒有把他踢出去"},{"start":16274.933,"end":16302.619,"text":"這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛明眼人一看就知道了嘛那現在他提出這樣子的申請你們會同意嗎包委員我想這個部分有一些會涉及到原來契約的一些要求的分工跟執行的內容跟相關採購法的規定所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍這我瞭解啦即時將心比心站在你們的位置上"},{"start":16303.683,"end":16324.379,"text":"我知道你們很痛苦因為連我在思考這件事情我都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子你讓他換那大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平你不讓他換他又沒有能力做下去那掩護的是我們整個機場的工程整個T3運輸的品質"},{"start":16328.786,"end":16350.041,"text":"大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情我向來的立場我從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事但是我們站在國家的立場遇到這種爛事遇到這種爛事最後就是全民來承擔嗎"},{"start":16351.809,"end":16359.842,"text":"最後就是全民來承擔了我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子但是回到部長一開始所講的有問題但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嗎"},{"start":16366.334,"end":16395.556,"text":"是嗎 部長報告委員 程序上以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題那我們現在也在精進就是對未來如果有類似的案件我們當然要精進那另外就是我也有特別要求雖然這件事情有發生這些的這個過程但是我還是要求桃機公司在整個T3航廈未來的整個運輸系統不能夠去delay到不能夠延遲到這是我對桃機系統的要求桃機公司的要求"},{"start":16395.916,"end":16413.014,"text":"部長你的要求大家都聽到了啦我也不希望會發生delay的狀況但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話責任追究就很辛苦啦我最後只有跟交通部跟桃機有一個具體的要求這一種詐騙廠商該負的責任要他負"},{"start":16418.147,"end":16441.46,"text":"該負的責任要他負沒有道理在這個過程裡面整個國家的利益因為前面的錯誤造成了犧牲結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住部長可不可以承諾好 這個部分沒有問題OK 好一定會依法來辦理謝謝委員好 謝謝黃委員"},{"start":16448.479,"end":16469.988,"text":"接下來有請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在邱毅英委員邱毅英、邱毅英委員不在蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧委員不在陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員"},{"start":16474.349,"end":16476.49,"text":"好接下來有請葉元芝委員發言"},{"start":16503.71,"end":16531.13,"text":"麻煩請那個交通部長 謝謝好 陳部長部長好委員好我們今天是討論那個危險天氣對於飛航的影響大家都非常支持飛航應該要安全但今天我想會排這個報告應該有一個原因一個起源是因為11月4號的時候當時已經有颱風所以有一些航空公司他可能重落地"},{"start":16531.71,"end":16549.208,"text":"大家開始檢討說這個問題要怎麼去解決讓我們的飛航更加安全那我當時看到部長是有對媒體震怒啦你是說是因為業者沒有落實保守派遣那我個人認為保守派遣是一句幹話啦什麼叫保守派遣部長"},{"start":16550.59,"end":16570.138,"text":"保守派遣就是航空公司必須要評估那一天的天氣的狀況大家不要太勉強去派遣那部長你知道那一天那一天被你罵的那個業者之外還有其他業者那天也都有飛嘛其他家包括長榮包括華航可能他們飛的班機還要更多啦"},{"start":16573.579,"end":16593.448,"text":"第一是比例上的問題確實那一天這不是比例的問題啦數量的問題嘛因為如果說很危險的話大家數量都要控制嘛你的意思不是說我原本我的班機多所以我就按比例減少我們的調查是所有的航空公司國航的航空公司都在調查不是針對某一間航空公司"},{"start":16594.088,"end":16612.936,"text":"我只是想說你要講一個方案出來那要能夠落實啦保守派遣這四個字很難落實因為原本航空公司它能飛不能飛它有一定的準則嘛比如說它的能見度是要可以看到幾公尺然後它的風速多少機長才會決定要飛或不飛嘛大概會秉持這個原則"},{"start":16613.476,"end":16632.47,"text":"而且這個原則是各家不太一樣有的業者他比如說他如果覺得不太能夠降落的時候他可以直接飛走他可以直接飛走就不降落有的業者是說好像他要先試個一次兩次之後才能直接飛走每一家的做法也都不一樣所以你喊出一個保守派遣那到底保守派遣到底是什麼意思"},{"start":16633.17,"end":16648.492,"text":"是說我只要比我原本的規定保守就好還是說我們國家定一個標準出來要比我們國家定的標準保守這其實這幾個字我覺得要講得很精準啊所以我是不太知道說你講說保守派遣到底是什麼意思啊"},{"start":16649.619,"end":16672.885,"text":"到底做得到還是做不到就我的了解喔那一天中落地的我們會特別啟動調查是因為那一天我不是在討論你要不要調查包含重飛包含這個轉降的比例是比過去的其他颱風更高我現在不是在針對那個個案說要不要調查問題我在講說既然你排了這個專案報告你就要拿出具體能夠把這問題解決的方案出來"},{"start":16673.285,"end":16687.111,"text":"因為保守派遣四個字我覺得那個就是一個很空洞很抽象的講法就像當時那一天非常多飛機在飛有很多飛機在上面盤旋那為什麼它重落地主要原因是因為它落地的時候有一個很大的側風"},{"start":16688.308,"end":16712.351,"text":"那那個冊封不是一直有啊那就剛好降落的時候有冊封然後你就把他歸咎於說是因為他沒有保守派遣我覺得這樣的歸因太抽象了實際上應該要定一個具體的辦法出來如果你只是跟業者呼籲說你們要保守派遣我跟部長講他不可能的嘛為什麼因為第一個機師的薪水很高啊第二個你如果"},{"start":16713.192,"end":16739.806,"text":"交通部沒有一個立場態度說今天停飛的話乘客會覺得說為什麼你不飛還有就是其他家都有飛為什麼只有你不飛他會有很多問題出來還有再加上為什麼氣象署給的報告都不準這也是一個很重要的問題所以不是說罵業者你能沒有保守派遣問題就在業者而是說我們今天交通部甚至氣象署也要提高自己的準確度那交通部怎麼把那個準則定的那天沒有不準的問題"},{"start":16740.606,"end":16758.511,"text":"而且我們每個航站他自己都有氣象的單位就是交通部也要定一個準則出來因為你只是講個保守派遣我覺得業者保不保守自由新政啊到底要多保守該怎麼保守然後這個是看他啊所以交通部不是推給人家就沒事啦"},{"start":16759.482,"end":16783.13,"text":"我想跟還是跟委員再說明一下保守派遣就是因為颱風很難預測那剛剛委員所說的都對就是說每一個公司機型不同大小不同其實他的一個派遣的準則也不一樣那我們這一次的康瑞颱風跟前兩次來比的話那其實前兩次的重飛比較少這一次的重飛比較多那再來我們四家國籍裡面"},{"start":16783.65,"end":16810.411,"text":"向虎航道一點他就自己決定下午就沒有再飛了所以每一家的派遣確實是不同然後也因為機型不同那我們會說保守派遣就是說既然颱風那麼難預測那你航空公司在派遣的時候就要特別掌握及時的資訊然後讓航機可以往後或者是往前盡量不要在那個颱風因為颱風的側風或者是各方面陣風都是很難預測所以為什麼要保守如果"},{"start":16811.512,"end":16826.574,"text":"我想你講的也都對啦但是很難操作啦他們都會你講他們不會不做啦但是實際上就不容易操作所以講包牌錢這一句話就是都是一句廢話啦要就定出具體辦法出來第二個很簡單問一下因為之前我有關心我們那個太阪輕軌嘛"},{"start":16827.535,"end":16849.796,"text":"我們新北市已經把研究再一次送到交通部去了那時候部長那時候剛來你有承諾我說你會立刻只要收到案子之後開專案會議內部在審查當中對 那個專案會議開了因為又過20天了因為那時候有講到本來就會針對每一個縣市政府他所送來的案子我們會做審查那目前在部裡面正在審查"},{"start":16850.816,"end":16870.196,"text":"部長那時候我們講的是說因為這個案子已經拖很久拖一兩年了嘛然後而且每一次問題都是一次發現一個問題拖回去另外發現一個問題拖回去另外發現一個問題拖回去那時候我跟你講的時候你也有認同說我們是不是一次吧開一個專案會議我有特別跟我們部內的單位有交代就是說這一次如果還有什麼問題需要求證請大家一次來討論對對對那那個討論會開了嘛"},{"start":16872.458,"end":16896.398,"text":"目前正在研議當中那大概什麼時候會有?您知道這個細節嗎?因為搞不好你不知道這個細節我不曉得那是不是有相關單位的有來?沒有來?沒有來?今天我們是明號講的那這樣子部長你回去幫我們關心一下好不好?就是這個案子已經送去了然後不要再像以前一樣就一直退就是有什麼問題一次然後那個賄賂還沒開的話可不可以早點開因為真的拖很久了好我請他們加速審查好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":16900.902,"end":16914.457,"text":"好 謝謝葉委員接下來有請張家俊委員張家俊 張家俊委員不在下一位蔡奕瑜委員請發言"},{"start":16924.809,"end":16935.924,"text":"謝謝主席那不是有請我們交通部部長以及我們民用航空局的局長何局長韓正思司長也邀請好司長好"},{"start":16940.967,"end":16965.932,"text":"呃部長這個我先給你看一個統計表齁這個統計表他說現在臺灣的呃機場的貨運的一個統計那我們可以看出呃第一名的桃園齁他是166呃166萬跟第二名臺北高雄齁都是有很大的距離那從這個表看出來桃園機場佔了臺灣貨運的95.94%"},{"start":16971.481,"end":16980.813,"text":"那剩下的臺北、高雄、台中、澎湖幾乎只佔了不到5%而且這不到5%又以國內貨運為多也就是我們臺灣的國際貨運超過可能99%以上都在桃園這是為什麼"},{"start":16991.022,"end":17016.525,"text":"報告委員這個其實在航空業他們有一個疊加的效應當各國的航班比較多經過那個機場的時候他們有時候會貨物交換或者是有集貨的動作所以它會有一個主要一個集貨當然是集貨的一個方便性那畢竟桃園機場它的航線比較多所以航線多他們在於貨運的一些轉運的時候當然是相對方便是沒有錯但是"},{"start":17017.205,"end":17039.486,"text":"但也呈現出來說我們臺灣在於貨運這一塊我們重度依賴桃園其他的機場他相對的功能性沒有被彰顯出來那沒有被彰顯出來自然臺灣除了桃園是一個比較完整符合貨運的機場其他的機場他們在於貨運的基本的配備相對也不夠"},{"start":17040.882,"end":17058.541,"text":"好那我要跟你部長那個講的那是大問題事實上我回到我要講的好我要回到我要講的就是說我們應該臺灣要有一個戰略佈局是現在台積電的佈局你看他現在在熊本對他有佈局他的這個晶片的一個晶片廠是但是"},{"start":17059.702,"end":17079.896,"text":"我早上在跟經濟部長在對談的時候我也跟他聊到了說是不是類似這樣的晶片廠最後他們要到被使用就要經過封裝那經過封裝他有可能會考慮去高雄的像日月光這樣的封裝廠或者是台積電自己未來他們很重要的COAS先進封裝廠"},{"start":17080.957,"end":17106.537,"text":"所以不管是在哪裡製造的晶片最後就是要到封裝需要去一個封裝的一個基地那嘉義正好就是未來台積電COWAS的重點基地所以如果這樣來了我要跟部長來提出一個想法就是說我們有一個水上機場在這邊水上機場的條件我們可以去看一下它現在是軍民合用的一個機場那基本上"},{"start":17108.118,"end":17112.761,"text":"這一個機場跑道長度也不會輸給其他的機場你看跑道長度是跟台南一樣跟小港也一樣也比花蓮機場跟台中機場的跑道長度還要長那我們知道嘉義機場過去也有跑過幾次的包機當然是次數很少少之又少"},{"start":17127.791,"end":17138.219,"text":"是不定期的包機但是如果以剛剛我講的他以晶圓然後跟日本的熊本以日生活圈的概念他卻是未來可以發展成國際貨運機場"},{"start":17140.816,"end":17164.29,"text":"那我們是把台積電把我們的晶片的範圍因為我們要創造我們晶片的台灣要變全世界科技產品的日不落國要日不落國當然這一個國際貨運就很重要了所以我們未來我們的嘉義機場有沒有可能在部長的領導之下我們加強它整個貨運的裝載包括說它裝櫃、拆櫃、裝盤、拆盤裝車、卸車這些"},{"start":17169.053,"end":17187.5,"text":"基本的配備來用就好這一個布局起來未來一定有航空公司發現說我從嘉義因為我不用在桃園再去等我從嘉義來做貨運的一個起降相對於其他是方便的尤其對於這一個科技公司來說好 保證我講完了來 純粹讓你來報告委員沒有 我要聽保證說好"},{"start":17192.182,"end":17219.097,"text":"從嘉義到台南到高雄到屏東確實這段時間整個科技業難移的現象非常的明顯那我們整體的南部這個南台灣的這個貨運的這個思考我們也做整體在思考啦就是以南部的這個科技業的未來的這個運量有在做思考所以我們整體都會來做一個規劃那委員您今天在建議就是說嘉義機場的部分我們未來也納入這個考量裡面"},{"start":17219.417,"end":17247.891,"text":"所以部長你們現在已經有在做南部貨運的一個國際線的一個規劃嘛對不對現在只是說每一個地方都有它的一個優勢當然也有它不利的地方我們嘉義有機場、台南也有機場、屏東、高雄也有一個小港機場但是部長我跟你講一個關鍵點嘉義的一個優勢啦我們這叫做落後的優勢你要在台南、在高雄你發展貨運機場你沒有辦法突破宵禁這一塊啊是是是"},{"start":17248.191,"end":17254.033,"text":"那邊的人口那麼多消盡這塊是很嚴肅的問題啊那些舵車那幾乎在你看高雄小港機場在內的那些舵車小港你沒辦法面對這一塊嘛"},{"start":17264.437,"end":17283.612,"text":"所以我們家依舊有這個啊我們水上那基本上還不到還不到那麼多的人口數要面對宵禁的相對於方便如果我們這個貨運的積散可以給地方帶來新的一些發展的契機居民也許會同意這個宵禁的一些干擾"},{"start":17284.292,"end":17303.878,"text":"所以我覺得這很多因素疊加起來嘉義的水上機場是得天獨我覺得部長你們在做整體的未來南部貨運國際線的時候戰略思考的時候慎重來思考我們的水上機場好不好水上機場明明就好聽水上的機場咧聽到這個人說有台灣很厲害我們飛機都在水上水上起了大家說這台灣有夠強這樣好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":17315.41,"end":17316.831,"text":"好 謝謝蔡委員好 接下來有請王美惠委員王美惠 王美惠委員不在賴士寶委員賴士寶 賴士寶委員不在"},{"start":17337.81,"end":17351.011,"text":"好我們今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢做以下決議第一報告及詢答完畢第二委員王美惠、蔡其昌所提書面質詢記錄"},{"start":17353.414,"end":17367.529,"text":"列入紀錄並刊登公報第三委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答覆部分請交通部盡速以書面答覆第四"},{"start":17368.89,"end":17386.616,"text":"討論事項第一案到第三案也就是相關於民航局的單位預算民航事業基金的分預算還有我們淘機公司的營業預算這三案我們另外則其進行處理"},{"start":17387.577,"end":17398.638,"text":"委員預算提案於12月5日禮拜四中午12點截止收件本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家也謝謝幾位董事長、總經理謝謝你們"},{"start":17412.426,"end":17418.189,"text":"有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司董事長有限公司"},{"start":17440.938,"end":17444.36,"text":"中華航空局局長陳世凱"}]}},{"id":"16288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16288","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dbae2c6269a10f1bf5e5a7d9476abbdb3b104c5adbfed68f7392c15fa4ccbe5a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長、國家發展委員會、經濟部報告「美國總統大選後，對於推動台美貿易及科技建立合作架構之影響」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-20T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T12:20:00+08:00","duration":13755,"影片長度":"03:49:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 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余世民主計處處長 李佩華資電處副處長 羅倩薇公眾會副執行長 蕭光偉台日協秘書長 范正國領務局局長"},{"start":2292.81,"end":2301.198,"text":"和政環國家發展會委員會副主任委員高先貴綜合規劃處副處長李佩玉經濟發展處副處長陳美菊產業發展處專門委員李家珍"},{"start":2322.645,"end":2330.876,"text":"經濟部政務次長陳正琦、國際貿易署副署長劉威廉、國營司專門委員黃旭輝、"},{"start":2341.977,"end":2345.562,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部、國家發展委員會及經濟部報告．美國總統大選後．對於推動台美貿易及科技建立合作架構的影響．並備質詢首先我們請外交部田政務次長上台報告"},{"start":2368.001,"end":2390.931,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安很榮幸獲邀前來就美國總統大選後．對於推動台美貿易及科技建立合作架構之影響．進行專題並報告並備質詢書面報告請參閱以下就重點說明,敬請主席及各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":2392.366,"end":2414.653,"text":"美國總統大選由共和黨候選人川普勝選。川普陣營在競選期間提出相關政見包括可能施加關稅以促進產業回流美國,加強科技出口管制來加速與中國的戰略脫鉤,傾向由雙邊途徑來達成政策目標等做法。"},{"start":2415.433,"end":2435.401,"text":"我們將與相關政府部會持續密切關注政見落實的情形、審慎因應﹐並透過如台美經濟繁榮夥伴對話等既有機制﹐討論雙方關切的議題﹐以深化互惠互利的夥伴關係﹐為雙方人民帶來更大的經濟繁榮﹐"},{"start":2437.805,"end":2463.65,"text":"台美經貿科技對話已經建制化了可深入討論的共同關切議題有以下幾點第一,過去8年以來美國政府經歷不同的政黨執政台美關係穩健增強美國對台灣持續展現跨黨派的支持第二,近年在全球供應鏈重整的浪潮下台灣企業對美國的投資貿易也蓬勃發展"},{"start":2464.27,"end":2488.352,"text":"是美國經濟及促進全球供應鏈韌性的關鍵夥伴我國將持續和美國現任政府穩健地推進雙方合作也期待與川普政府繼續深化臺美經貿夥伴的關係如透過臺美EPPD、臺美貿易倡議、臺美科學及技術合作協定及科技及"},{"start":2489.473,"end":2507.34,"text":"貿易投資合作架構等既有的機制．討論雙方關切的議題．並期盼盡速解決臺美雙重剋稅的問題．創造更多投資以及貿易的機會。第三點以川普首任政府創建的臺美EPPD為例．"},{"start":2508.54,"end":2519.649,"text":"雙方剛於10月24日舉行第五屆的會議,也在會前完成EPPD合作備忘錄的續約五年,有助延續臺美經濟對話的機制。臺美21世紀貿易倡議至今已經完成首批協定簽署。"},{"start":2526.334,"end":2544.751,"text":"我們將持續配合行政院經貿談判辦公室與美國行政部門及國會密切合作相信並期盼能持續推進談判的進度。第五,臺美在川普政府任內簽署的科學及技術合作協定"},{"start":2545.792,"end":2569.833,"text":"並在2023年5月舉行臺美科技合作對話．加強臺美科技界的合作與理解。我們正在推動的經濟外交也符合川普首任政府在EPPD架構下與我簽署的基礎建設融資及市場建立合作架構以及乾淨網路等政策要項"},{"start":2570.914,"end":2578.74,"text":"下一個階段將與美國各方就榮邦及固邦工作嚴提具體合作項目與新政府推進相關議題之協作"},{"start":2580.905,"end":2608.396,"text":"那麼美中科技競爭格局將延續台灣是美國供應鏈互惠互補的合作夥伴第一點考慮美中雙方在先進科技領域的戰略競爭越來越白熱化預期川普政府上任後將延續包括出口管制投資審查等各式反制措施以持續維持其領先的地位並防範中國取得各項新興關鍵科技第二點"},{"start":2609.156,"end":2633.099,"text":"我國秉持政治民主、經濟自由開放．對國際社會負責任的原則．是美國打造重要戰略產業供應鏈上．關鍵而且值得信賴的合作夥伴．未來我們將與相關部會合作．全力推動賴總統強調的五大信賴產業．與美國及各州成熟的產業聚落．相互的"},{"start":2634.832,"end":2661.707,"text":"第三點,我們注重智慧財產創新及保護加上嚴謹的對外投資審查措施也凸顯我是美國及美國企業值得信賴的合作夥伴本部及我駐美國各處以持續對外強化以上的論述彰顯台灣對全球半導體產業的貢獻此外,我企業近年來也積極的赴美投資本部及經濟部也持續"},{"start":2663.888,"end":2681.116,"text":"積極響應美國商務部舉辦之選擇美國投資高峰會．協助為業者瞭解赴美投資的環境．2023年美國已成為台灣對外投資的首選．台灣企業對美直接投資有助創造當地就業的機會"},{"start":2682.496,"end":2711.596,"text":"對美國製造業具有顯著的貢獻．彰顯臺美經濟互補、互惠及互利的夥伴關係。第二點,未來我們將配合我國相關部會與美國行政部門及國會密切合作解決臺美人民及企業關切的雙重課稅問題營造友善雙邊投資的付稅環境。第四大點,臺美在地方層級上積極共建經貿及科技合作網路"},{"start":2712.496,"end":2731.139,"text":"我們與美國地方的層級互動、交流近年來更加蓬勃發展美國各州在台設立辦事處的數量已成長到今天的24個另外各州州長訪台的頻率也比以往的多包括維吉尼亞、亞利桑那、新墨西哥"},{"start":2732.34,"end":2752.034,"text":"紐澤西、德州、愛德華等州黨訪台時﹐更加和我方簽署了經貿或者全方位的夥伴備忘錄﹐以加強雙方經貿產業及投資等合作﹐並協助方邊企業在彼此市場布局、共拓商機﹐我們同時和相關部會合作﹐"},{"start":2752.654,"end":2769.806,"text":"透過助美國各處在地方層級上積極促成產學研合作．除了促進雙邊人才培育的交流．也有助強化台美產學研的鏈結．共建緊密網絡．深化多層次的經貿夥伴關係．"},{"start":2771.747,"end":2793.241,"text":"另外,美國國務院、商務部以及農業部最近再度聯名致函全美國各州州長、大城市市長以及重要的企業領袖鼓勵各州強化與台灣的貿易、教育、投資及觀光交流,並鼓勵企業善用台美共享價值以及穩健的關係所提供的商機。"},{"start":2794.742,"end":2815.126,"text":"這是美國政府橫跨不同黨派執政,第三度致函明確表達支持強化台美各層級、各領域交往的立場,彰顯美國對深化台美夥伴關係的具體承諾及延續性,也凸顯與我國加強經貿等各項互動符合美國的利益。"},{"start":2819.461,"end":2838.766,"text":"貿易投資關係的熱絡共享互補互惠互利的夥伴關係我們將與我政府相關部會合作密切關注美國新政府經貿外交人事的布局政見的落實情形並持續透過上述各項機制深入討論關切的議題"},{"start":2841.186,"end":2858.053,"text":"為雙方人民創造福祉也為促進印太區域及全球的和平穩定及繁榮發展做出貢獻以上報告謝謝主席及各位委員而敬請大院委員先進不定指教持續給本部大力的支持謝謝"},{"start":2869.69,"end":2873.131,"text":"接下來我們請國發會高副主任委員進行報告主席、各位委員先進,大家好今天很榮幸因要就貴委員會所提的議題進行報告本會緊就貴館的部分針對美國大選後全球臺灣經濟的影響評估及因應作為進行說明"},{"start":2899.117,"end":2916.193,"text":"美國前總統川普成功地重返白宮．他的競選政見以美國利益優先為核心．在內政上將提出減稅的法案．同時也將嚴格地控管移民．在對外經貿方面．他將推動高關稅．"},{"start":2917.654,"end":2917.854,"text":"主席"},{"start":2935.635,"end":2954.82,"text":"美中貿易戰而且也會加速全球供應鏈的重組那預期其實也會增加全球貿易的不確定性根據國際貨幣基金的推估2025年全球經濟成長率將下降0.3個百分點2026跟2027年將分別下降0.5跟0.6個百分點"},{"start":2961.521,"end":2985.387,"text":"至於各國的影響程度的不一﹐預期中國大陸所受的衝擊會最大﹐其他部分的國家有可能可以受到轉戰的效益﹐可是基本上川普的新政策的落實﹐仍具有不確定性﹐它的影響能有待評估﹐所以行政部門其實會密切的注意﹐然後積極的因應"},{"start":2986.527,"end":3002.575,"text":"第一,我們會關注臺美的貿易談判,並爭取關稅的豁免。臺灣雖然不是美國的進口商品的主要來源國,但今年的前三季,臺美的貿易逆差是在各逆差國裡面排名第六。"},{"start":3003.195,"end":3006.477,"text":"所以我們會密切關切我們是否會列為優先貿易談判的重點國家那臺灣我們政府也會積極運用臺灣在半導體電子資訊產業的優勢我們爭取關稅豁免的談判空間"},{"start":3021.025,"end":3032.789,"text":"第二,我們會強化國內產業在全球供應業的韌性和價值。我想臺美其實長期保有良好的經貿合作關係。剛才外交部也報告,我們將透過既有的雙邊交流平臺推進臺美在五大信賴產業和人員等產業的合作,強化彼此供應業的韌性。為了因應國內企業在全球供應業的重新佈局,我想經濟部也會"},{"start":3050.115,"end":3065.23,"text":"會規劃藉由供應鏈大帶小的模式．結合臺灣半導體AI的優勢．在重點國家設立科技園區．並設立海外的單一窗口．第三,我們會因勢力導．協助企業爭取短端的商機．"},{"start":3066.631,"end":3077.662,"text":"政府除了繼續會引導我們的境外資金及台商回流投資以外,我們目前也正積極的結合外交產業跟經貿等複合的戰略,積極推動雙邊及多邊的合作來爭取台灣在國際經貿的空間。"},{"start":3085.731,"end":3090.655,"text":"臺灣除了受惠於美中貿易戰供應鏈移轉的效應在過去然後川普在前一個任期也通過了相當多的友台的法案包括鼓勵美國資深官員訪台"},{"start":3107.226,"end":3133.878,"text":"以及協助臺灣參與國際組織等所以政府部門將持續運用我們雙邊的對話機制跟交流管道深化臺美互利互惠的夥伴關係本會也會持續掌握川普總統上任後推動的政策以及對國內外經貿的形勢的影響那確保我們在全球的經濟的變局中穩定的成長以上的報告敬請指教"},{"start":3139.537,"end":3166.784,"text":"接著請經濟部陳政務次長進行報告主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生陳文貴委員會邀請就美國總統大選後．對於推動台美貿易及科技建立合作架構之影響進行報告進行各位委員不定視角"},{"start":3168.534,"end":3185.253,"text":"臺灣是美國長久以來互惠互利的重要夥伴,理念相近,經貿關係緊密,我國產業的商業模式建基於盟友的信任關係之上,我商是美商長期可信賴的夥伴,臺美在許多的關鍵領域都具有相當大的合作空間。"},{"start":3186.354,"end":3207.165,"text":"本部除了透過與美方的各項平台持續進行對話也深化跟美國地方政府的關係進一步推動協助我商到美國佈局持續強化台美關係川普總統在2017年第一次執政後推行了以美國為優先的核心貿易政策為全球經貿局勢創造了機會與挑戰"},{"start":3209.986,"end":3232.012,"text":"而這些政策也重塑了國際貿易的版圖．對全球供應鏈重組及關稅戰略布局帶來重大影響就我們的觀察．川普政府主張單邊主義．他重返執政．預料仍將優先考慮美國的利益．他的經貿政策對外主要是以科增關稅．包括對全球輸美的產品"},{"start":3232.772,"end":3244.62,"text":"科增10-20%的關稅．對中國出口到美國的產品科增60%的關稅．另外也要對源自墨西哥生產的汽車提高關稅．在美國對內則將推動減稅．讓企業的稅率從21%降到15%．然後也要增加對美國的境內投資．來扶植美國的製造業"},{"start":3255.731,"end":3277.179,"text":"在川普政府執政後．如果對中國全面加徵60%的關稅．並且取消中國永久正常貿易地位．美中競爭的態勢將加劇．部分台灣企業有可能因為轉燈效應受惠．促進我們的貿易增長．但是也對全球貿易帶來不確定性．並且為我們的經濟形成難以預測的連帶影響"},{"start":3280.22,"end":3296.266,"text":"此外,川普在競選期間也表示他要再度退出《巴黎協定》,廢除目前降低通膨法,並且擴大開採石油岸天然氣,增加對全球的化石燃料供應,有可能加劇全球碳排上升。"},{"start":3297.546,"end":3314.531,"text":"以上綜合來看川普新政府的政策是否能夠落實仍然具有高度的不確定性對全球和美國經濟影響有待密切觀察進行評估本部會持續密切關注美國經貿政策走向以及全球經貿局勢"},{"start":3316.673,"end":3340.191,"text":"臺美經貿關係在近年來越來越緊密從2018年美中貿易戰爆發全球供應鏈重組接著發生COVID-19的疫情以及俄烏戰爭等國際局勢的變化也加速了臺美間的連結2023年美國是我國的第二大貿易夥伴而我國是美國的第八大貿易夥伴在投資部分我國對美國的投資總共"},{"start":3341.573,"end":3346.664,"text":"90件,金額高達96.9億美元,不論件數或金額都排名第一。"},{"start":3348.444,"end":3373.389,"text":"近年,臺美雙方也持續建立不同的經貿平台,包括在川普總統任內與我方與美國國務院成立的臺美經濟繁榮夥伴對話 針對雙方共同關切的經貿政策議題進行交流而第五屆EPPD會議也在上個月舉行,臺美雙方並完成EPPD續約五年的簽署,作為繼續召開這個高階經貿對話的基礎"},{"start":3376.73,"end":3401.384,"text":"在商務和投資的交流方面經濟部跟美國商務部成立了科技貿易及投資合作的架構雙方聚焦在半導體、電動車、能源及下世代通訊等關鍵領域透過私部門的積極參與進一步深化台美雙邊貿易、投資及產業的合作同時也強化彼此的供應鏈韌性例如上個月美國商務部的次長"},{"start":3402.324,"end":3429.88,"text":"Locasio就親自率領網路安全商業發展團訪台今年9月美國商務部也籌組了無人機及反無人機商業發展團來台與我業者進行交流臺美雙方的業者都積極探索雙方產業合作的潛在商機本部也透過TTIC的架構進一步強化跟美國各州的經貿連結到目前為止我們已經跟10個美國州政府簽署了經貿合作的備忘錄或協議"},{"start":3431.241,"end":3455.212,"text":"此外,臺美雙方也在2022年啟動臺美21世紀貿易倡議的談判工作,並且在2023年完成首批協定的簽署,是臺美雙邊關係的重要里程碑。經濟部除了希望跟美國川普新政府就各項經貿議題持續溝通協商外,也會配合行政院經貿談判辦公室持續推動相關工作。"},{"start":3457.422,"end":3474.534,"text":"美國商務部每年都有選擇美國投資高峰位這個期間本部都會籌組企業領袖訪美團赴美訪問。台灣是近年參加SelectUSA規模最大的代表團之一,獲得美方的高度重視,本部未來也會持續辦理。"},{"start":3475.675,"end":3495.847,"text":"川普新政府將於明年1月上任美國的經貿政策落實情形以及對我國的經濟影響仍然有待川普執政團隊上任後密切觀察來進行評估那麼經濟部將持續努力及時掌握美國經貿政策的最新發展及時研擬因應措施、滾動事前檢討透過各項經貿對話機制與美國溝通協商以上報告進行指教"},{"start":3508.443,"end":3524.288,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理現在請沈博洋委員上台質詢"},{"start":3536.041,"end":3540.546,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那有請外交部次長,謝謝,請田次長請田次長"},{"start":3550.129,"end":3572.254,"text":"委員長市長好那這個因為這個算是在外交部預算之前所以呢算是僅有的幾次詢答機會但是因為今天剛好也有一個比較嚴重的這一個選罷法的這一個衝突在樓下所以呢這個希望我可能不會用太多的時間因為現在如果說人民的這一個罷免的權利都會剝奪的話我想說這一個"},{"start":3575.055,"end":3595.673,"text":"我們的民主制度大概也很難維繫但是我們還是針對這樣的一個主題然後還有一集這個跟預算相關的來問一下那第一個就是說因為今天的題目是在講這個臺美貿易跟科技合作架構但是就我自己的理解就是有一些東西在談的時候大概外交部也沒有辦法講又或者說今天如果就算我們知道了"},{"start":3596.353,"end":3596.813,"text":"拜登提供66億美元的直接資金"},{"start":3615.643,"end":3635.419,"text":"補助這個台積電在亞利桑那那這個我覺得不是什麼很大的一個問題但問題在於說我們現在只要任何跟這個有關的消息其實假消息這邊特別多也就是說我們今天排定這個題目之前就已經有大量的不管是跟台積電相關的跟什麼相關的這種類似的假消息變得非常非常的多"},{"start":3636.059,"end":3659.851,"text":"那我認為外交部要特別的注意是因為我以前幾天國安局的一個例子前幾天這一個我們在跟國安局長討論的時候是在講說這個拜習會因為媒體就直接寫在頭版說這個拜習會就是有提到賴清德有說要提到反台獨等等之類的那當然這是一個官方文件的直接造假因為公開的資訊就是沒有嘛但是如果當時我們的講法就是說一定沒有"},{"start":3662.853,"end":3684.693,"text":"那對方又可以咬著這一點就是說搞不好我們在私底下這個官媒就硬要講就中國的官媒硬要講說私底下一定有所以這個時候會陷入一個套套邏輯那時候局長有說過他們的重點其實會擺在比如說每一次有這種公開的場合中國只要跟別的國家談他自己都會出一個稿然後每次出一個稿都跟內容不一致"},{"start":3685.333,"end":3699.649,"text":"所以我們不用特別強調是這一次但是我們可以跟大家講說這個歷史上他每一次都不一致所以請大家不要輕信他的中國官方的說法那這樣就算他之後再流出什麼樣的說法對我們來講也不會有什麼太大的傷害"},{"start":3700.45,"end":3728.864,"text":"所以像這一次也是有這個新加坡的事情外交部其實也有做一些回應說可能有提可能沒有提但其實比較好的做法有可能就是直接告訴大家就是中國每次他只要講出來的東西每一次都跟我們實際的狀況不符合所以這一次請大家要謹慎以對那這樣的話就會讓新加坡不管他講了什麼東西出來至少我們也都立於不敗之地所以我覺得這一點可能要稍作一下提醒那後面這一件事情就是"},{"start":3730.064,"end":3756.365,"text":"這一個STARLINK就是STARLINK有沒有簽出台灣這件事情其實最早是有這個外媒在報導然後裡面就有提到幾家台灣的公司說提到就是說這個有可能要叫我們要撤出台灣那其實裡面他也有跟我們台灣的三家業者求證那這三家業者也講說沒有現在沒有這一回事所以照理說他是一個很平衡的一個外媒的報導看起來也沒有什麼太大的問題"},{"start":3757.245,"end":3773.166,"text":"但我們就看到呢就大量的像這一類的我們現在把它附在這個PPT上面的這一類的假消息很多這個市長你可以看到就是第一什麼蘋果跑了第二什麼這個英偉達也撤了第三高通也動了有沒有就是他列了一堆那我們去看他這個源頭就是呢"},{"start":3775.228,"end":3802.297,"text":"買購配他們有在網路上做這個闢謠然後就可以發現雖然路透社一開始發布但它一開始蠻正常的但後來這個聯合早報開始就把它變成有點誇張了就是內容上面已經有點偏離了然後接下來就是內容農場11月6號網易就把它越講越誇張講的好像是跟這一次選舉有關係但其實那一篇報導跟選舉根本是無關的事情它是在選舉之前的但這個網易就移花接木"},{"start":3802.897,"end":3816.183,"text":"移花接木後,微博的魯國平先生,反正就是一堆微博的帳號做大量的散播,然後散播完之後就回到剛剛講的我們的Facebook的上面,所以這其實就是一個典型的造謠的產業鏈,那這個造謠的產業鏈其實目前來說,以往"},{"start":3820.825,"end":3838.09,"text":"大部分來講可能針對我們的民生議題啊什麼的國防相關的但現在呢針對經濟的針對外交的已經越來越多了所以呢我知道外交部本來都有在盤點一開始在外交學院的時候我們其實在連學員上課的時候都會講這些東西嘛但現在就有可能我們需要"},{"start":3838.63,"end":3861.385,"text":"跟國人直接講說他們這個產業鏈長什麼樣子他原始的報導到底跟原來的差距有多少然後呢做幾個sample告訴大家之後呢以後只要一出現就可以告訴大家他們每一次這一類的文章都跟原始的訊息重疊只有10%而已有90%根本就是不實的資訊那現在可能會越來越多就是因為畢竟美國也剛選舉完日本也剛選舉完"},{"start":3863.546,"end":3883.988,"text":"現在這一個算是一個比較動盪不安的時代那再加上今年他們要修我們自己內部不管是財化法跟懸罷法這一類的爭議在這種動盪不安的時候呢其實假消息還有這種陰謀論是最容易做散播的所以希望外交部接下來可能要特別注意這一塊那我們在看預算的時候呢也會特別針對這一塊"},{"start":3885.209,"end":3900.292,"text":"因為預算上面的譬如說不管是在原來的這個新進的人員的訓練或者外交人員的這一個像在外交學院那裡又或者是我們平常的這個應對方式他的目前的教育的訓練他所花的預算大概多少然後有沒有"},{"start":3900.572,"end":3924.83,"text":"特別針對這種,比如說,他的不管是國外的、中國的、台灣內部的造謠產業鏈長什麼樣子,因為同仁一定要熟悉,因為每一個同仁遇到的狀況可能不太一樣,有些可能就只跟他的業館業務相關,但他對於這個造謠產業鏈卻不熟悉,那他出去的時候,他第一句話就講錯了,那到座席都會變成破口,對方又可以拿這件事情來做操作,所以這邊就是想說特別跟這個次長提醒一下。"},{"start":3925.47,"end":3948.139,"text":"那這個我最後一個問題就好了因為我想說現在選報法對我來講是比較重要的事情就是說因為才化法現在要通過了那才化法之前我們在跟國防部討論的時候就說國防部最有可能當然最差狀況2900多億這個最好一點的狀況我看900億、1000億被拿掉都跑不掉這國防部會變得不好運作但我認為外交部也有可能首當其衝"},{"start":3949.019,"end":3976.533,"text":"因為他們如果把6千億要從中央拿到地方地方上的那種社福的他們不敢去動啦他要動一定動這些純中央的事物國防外交最適合所以除了國防之外呢他外交可能會大砍特砍就跟你講說啊現在請你重編因為畢竟我們現在6千億要拿下去了又或者說他今天實行往後一年那明年的下一次要編的時候呢跟今年編的就會變得完全不一樣所以不知道外交部現在針對這件事情有沒有什麼評估"},{"start":3977.714,"end":4000.411,"text":"就關於預算這件有可能會短少這件事情謝謝委員指教現在部裡面所推動的是總和外交那麼提出了幾大個計劃顧邦跟榮邦那這個計劃基本上都很需要財政的支援這是先說明那如果說這個財化法通過以後"},{"start":4001.252,"end":4019.588,"text":"我們當然對一些國際組織或者一些交流的活動勢必會受到影響會減少那麼邀請外賓來的次數跟人數也會受到影響那麼國際合作國際援助這個都需要經費去支持的"},{"start":4020.808,"end":4046.818,"text":"還有當我們住外館有的時候要去買館舍這個部分是我們長期的一個計畫因為我們對那些國家對我們友好的國家我們希望能夠買一個館舍代表我們跟他關係長久不必去付大量的租金所以以上提的這部分都會受到影響對所謂總和的外交也好故邦、榮邦的計畫都會產生很大的影響"},{"start":4047.719,"end":4064.801,"text":"說真的我們的外交如果說像剛剛講的不管是交流啦等等之類的或者說設備的購買這些如果做不到的話中國會最開心啦我們現在就面臨中國那麼大量的一個打壓那但是我也要提醒就是說假設他們現在他們的腦筋是動到想要動外交的預算這非常有可能"},{"start":4065.382,"end":4088.202,"text":"那如果說他就算把財化法往後施行一年是2026才發生這樣的事情那2025就一定會有鋪天蓋地的對這個外交部的攻擊啦他一定按照剛剛次長講的比如說他跟你講交流嘛他就一定要汙名化你的交流他就用一年的時間一直告訴你說這些交流都沒有用啦這些交流都亂花錢啦然後再來呢如果說外管的一些設備他就開始跟你講說"},{"start":4088.983,"end":4114.101,"text":"我們就發現那個誰誰誰內部人員爆料指出怎麼樣怎麼樣這個時候呢他都會名正言順的把外交部這些預算全部拿掉所以呢在接下來這一年為什麼我們剛剛前面要提到那麼多事情就是因為如果他真的要動到外交的預算鋪天蓋地的陰謀論會針對外交部而來而且從國內國外都一定會有所以一定要有一個比較良好的應對機制不然的話我們沒有辦法面對接下來的處境"},{"start":4115.602,"end":4123.949,"text":"因為時間的關係我可能要趕快下去我就先講到這邊謝謝主席 謝謝次長謝謝沈博洋委員田次長請回接下來我們請盧美琳委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請經濟部陳正琦次長請次長"},{"start":4150.123,"end":4153.944,"text":"市長早安市長從川普目前所宣布的新政府的國安團隊我們看起來都是對中國的強硬派那雖然說美國的商務部跟貿易代表署的首長的人選到目前為止還沒有揭曉可是我們在川普在"},{"start":4171.109,"end":4177.954,"text":"進選期間,琉璃喊出將對中國進口加徵60%的關稅,要讓製造業、科技業回流,所以我們可以看到會有新一波的關稅戰跟科技戰,我們看到可能就會即將上演了。那剛剛部長您的這個報告裡面,或者是說,我也看到外交部也好,國安會也好,裡面都有提到,"},{"start":4195.267,"end":4196.568,"text":"美國總統大選後．對於推動台美貿易及科技建立合作架構之影響"},{"start":4212.58,"end":4217.883,"text":"那這跟川普政府1.0時期的美中貿易戰開始的時候有很多這個跨國企業為了避免這個高關稅然後陸續去將這個生產線從中國轉到其他地區的這個情況會再發生那也就是說也可能這是台灣會受賄的這個很重要的這個原因可是我在今年的4月有看到這個"},{"start":4235.194,"end":4244.458,"text":"政期局提出,截至去年底為止,上市櫃公司合計1,209家負大陸投資,占全體上市櫃公司總加數1,714家的70.54%,這是一個非常高的比例。這些公司"},{"start":4257.563,"end":4265.699,"text":"大部分都是以電腦跟周邊的設備業還有電子的零組件的這個行業為主那本期想請教"},{"start":4266.998,"end":4287.344,"text":"這些產業鏈會不會依存在中國因為他們現在在中國嘛會受到這一波的影響非常的巨大因為如果說川普真的要實施這個課稅60%的進口稅的話我們這些在中國的企業會不會受到很大的影響"},{"start":4288.41,"end":4314.648,"text":"報告委員我們的資通訊產業在中國大陸的投資大部分我們的盤點絕大部分都是因為國際供應鏈也就是美國品牌、歐洲品牌、日本品牌在中國投資之後我們必須配合他在中國大陸投資那麼未來的互動我們預期這些品牌其實已經發生了他們慢慢的要移轉他的生產基地比方說到印度、到東南亞"},{"start":4316.389,"end":4336.416,"text":"這些品牌商本身都有這樣的計畫所以我們的供應鏈業者也會跟品牌商合作來分散市場來降低風險所以我們目前也在協助我們這些在中國大陸投資的業者能夠分散市場然後配合品牌商到新南向國家來投資"},{"start":4337.836,"end":4353.867,"text":"這經濟部政策就是會是是是想我們現在目前有跟這些目前還在中國的一千多家的這個算是貴公司有做過後面有做密切的聯繫有如何去因應未來可能會面對的這個60%的關稅的這個問題嗎大家有有在討論這個部分嗎我們未來這些在中國大陸的企業未來他們的這個動向"},{"start":4365.384,"end":4388.779,"text":"我們這個經濟部有去關心嗎?未來如何去處置呢?如何去因應到這部分?是,報委員,在政策面我們所謂的境外觀內以大帶小就是協助這些業者能夠分散市場第二個我們在政策面跟美方強化對話瞭解整個供應鏈的情況讓美方能夠瞭解那大家雙方的政府來政策引導業者來降低風險"},{"start":4391.782,"end":4405.003,"text":"實際作為上,我們也透過產業工協會有告訴業者,除了分散市場,更重要請他們加強提升競爭力,產品差異化等等來降低自己的風險以及提高他的競爭力"},{"start":4406.904,"end":4423.473,"text":"這些位在中國大陸的這些企業目前的話他們當然自然應該所講的就是說我們會提醒那其實上如果真的是發生這種狀況的話你預期會看到怎麼樣的一個結果這些企業在中國他們面對怎麼樣的一個結果"},{"start":4427.535,"end":4448.431,"text":"因為畢竟已經在那邊深耕也許在那邊很多年了對這個企業的這個想要回流也好或是轉移到其他的國家其實都是還是要有一個時間一個佈局那可能川普上任之後他就要來實施這些政策那我們台灣政府對於這些在中國的這些企業我們有沒有給他們類似一個"},{"start":4449.472,"end":4451.033,"text":"在協助企業的具體行動方面的話,臺商回流我們這個投資台灣三大方案也會延長"},{"start":4470.734,"end":4471.554,"text":"再來還有不少人也擔心美國即將要開啟的進口關稅戰"},{"start":4495.2,"end":4495.32,"text":"美國總統大選委員會議"},{"start":4525.46,"end":4530.024,"text":"本來我們也在想說那個時候會不會也造成這個通膨可是我們會再回去看這個川普在這個第一任的時候上一任的時候他的CPI其實並沒有攀升我們看這個圖是沒有攀升是沒有這個看不出有這個通膨的這個這個現象可是川普這一次揚言要課稅比如說中國他必須要課60%的稅然後一般的國家是10%那狀況跟之前有一點不太一樣"},{"start":4552.882,"end":4555.204,"text":"我們同意國發會的評估會造成通膨的壓力這裡面跟第一任的跟現在會有點不一樣是關稅的幅度、國內減稅的幅度"},{"start":4577.641,"end":4603.719,"text":"還有美國貨幣釋放到市場上的情況都有不一樣原來只有10到25%的增加這一次如果真的60%那個差別很大再來最近的美國目前通貨膨脹慢慢要把它降下來了實際上它已經很多貨幣在市場上了那麼第三個呢它的減稅的效果上次已經減過了它希望再延長經濟減稅能夠再減的空間也可能沒有那麼大"},{"start":4604.119,"end":4624.768,"text":"所以就是為什麼很多經濟學家還有國發會的評估都認為會造成美國的通膨壓力當然如果美國造成通膨壓力的話對全世界當然會有一些衝擊這個部分我們目前還不知道他的政策落實的情形如何只能先來密切觀察如果政策有確實落實的話其實對全球都不會是一個好事對經濟來講會是一個很大的衝擊"},{"start":4628.61,"end":4642.335,"text":"OK那再來還有一點我想請教的就是說這個美國我們知道川普一直以來對於這個雙邊這個多邊的這個貿易協定其實他一直都是抱持著這個懷疑的這個態度他認為多邊貿易其實是對美國是不利的因此比較傾向於單邊貿易的這個協定的來做來做這個談判那我想請問一下這樣子是不是會"},{"start":4655.84,"end":4662.144,"text":"加速FTA的進展尤其是臺美21世紀貿易倡議已經有過兩階段的談判第一階段我之前有看過報導說有望年底就可以生效第二階段也達成了不少的共識所以會不會說臺美21世紀倡議拼圖已經快要完成了一半是不是會加速FTA的簽署會不會有這個進程目前有沒有進程"},{"start":4685.097,"end":4706.648,"text":"這是一個評估題,我們只是來先依測。川普在競選期間講了三大政策,第一個他是單邊主義,第二個要振興美國的製造業,第三個他對貿易是持懷疑看法。那麼這樣來講的話,我們必須非常有創意的來推動在美國振興製造業的政策目標之下,"},{"start":4707.369,"end":4714.846,"text":"跟他來做這個雙邊的對話能夠推動台美之間的貿易協議是有可能但是要有創意的做法而且我們要努力來推動"},{"start":4715.962,"end":4721.566,"text":"所以這個的話其實現在也很難說也很難講就像你們剛剛我在看到所有的報告裡面就是說未來的不確定性其實是還蠻高的所以其實確實就只能說只能預估可能預先我們無法去預估說他未來會怎麼走可是我覺得一切都還是要有準備因為我所看到的就是說他的傾向可能會跟我們未來的政策走向可能會有一些"},{"start":4742.362,"end":4742.562,"text":"羅美琳委員 陳次長請回"},{"start":4772.455,"end":4772.856,"text":"黃仁委員外交部次長"},{"start":4795.144,"end":4821.815,"text":"黃委員您早好早有關於我們部長林佳龍出訪立陶宛在11月17號率冒險和國內無人機的業者出訪歐洲的聯訪7天請問一下林部長出訪歐洲和台力的關係可能甚便有沒有關係這是第一點"},{"start":4822.779,"end":4845.472,"text":"那另外就是這個部長出訪的歐洲如果和立陶宛沒有關係就不合理了待會再回答那本期之前有執行過並指出在建立立陶宛在建立在一個新新新冠疫情和厄烏的戰爭兩國兩個立即點在"},{"start":4849.909,"end":4850.269,"text":"請問一下兩點你來回答一下"},{"start":4872.349,"end":4890.142,"text":"拜託跟委員先報告一下部長這一次率領台灣無人機的產業訪問團訪問立陶宛這個做法是具體要回應理念相近的夥伴建立可信賴的無人機產業鏈的需求"},{"start":4892.764,"end":4901.67,"text":"我國的無人機產業,廠商也有機會去立陶宛等歐洲國家展現台灣無人機的研發跟製造實力,共同強化台灣無人機民主的供應鏈"},{"start":4912.377,"end":4925.069,"text":"這個我覺得是林部長他的一個榮邦計畫的一部分另外一點是可能身邊的這個關係有沒有在這一次出訪的重要的一個拜訪"},{"start":4926.325,"end":4951.207,"text":"而立陶宛跟台灣我們是建立一個辦事處代表處那麼您談到的生變大概是哪一方面可不可以說明一下現在他要把台灣把台灣的我們在立陶宛設立的台灣要把台灣這兩個字要拔掉要未來可能要用什麼名稱"},{"start":4952.768,"end":4966.32,"text":"因為在從立陶宛駐代表處改名以台灣之名設立代表處是以外交的錯誤是立陶宛所講的喔那因為立陶宛在高科技園區開發中止媒體報導準總理不接見"},{"start":4971.892,"end":5000.451,"text":"林部長反團這麼多不利的一個事件堆疊在一起那外交部必須要思考可能便其應對國發會也考慮我國之前對立陶宛的投資有沒有必要做調整因為這一次出訪是不是已經遭受到立陶宛外交部要我們的林佳龍部長本來要拜會結果後來被拒絕有沒有這個問題"},{"start":5002.34,"end":5017.33,"text":"跟委員報告 我想這個題目我們從兩方面來談既然部長都要到立陶宛跟我們本來就是有友好的關係那勢必一定是跟高層裡面有見面啊但是你這邊要回答啊"},{"start":5019.864,"end":5044.745,"text":"我還是跟兩個方向提談第一個我們的無人機產業必須往外發展所以這一次林部長帶的20多位的無人機都是台灣非常著名的來增加我們跟歐洲除了歐洲以外立陶宛以外其他歐洲的國家也需要無人機這是第一點非常重要第二點台灣跟立陶宛建立的關係"},{"start":5046.286,"end":5067.868,"text":"明稱是前政府雙邊已經談了很久談出來的一個結果現在立陶宛他政府有改組那麼如果要做任何的改變應該要經過兩方政府的再次這不是我們一廂請願喔我上次有質詢過我們林部長今天如果他們決定跟"},{"start":5068.648,"end":5083.356,"text":"跟對岸決定要做一個建交的話我們用什麼方法來調整讓他接受我們在立陶宛設立一個代表處他用台灣的名稱要拔掉台灣這兩個字"},{"start":5085.137,"end":5104.247,"text":"所以這個是有關於這個問題為什麼因為我們之前已經補助2億的美金在那個地方另外及我們有10億的美金在做一個貸款給這個立陶宛所以對我們國內我們外交部所貸款出去的錢如何做一個"},{"start":5104.767,"end":5130.501,"text":"未來萬一代表說要更名的話那我們所投資的所貸款的有沒有影響,絕對有影響嘛那另外就是我特別要講的是新加坡總理在黃順才在11月15號以中共的領導人習近平以IPEC"},{"start":5132.362,"end":5144.732,"text":"場邊會晤的時候,中方已經稱新加坡新國反對台灣獨立,堅定恪守一個中國原則,但我們的外交部亦反駁,不過根據"},{"start":5146.913,"end":5175.535,"text":"我們新國外交部網站確實有新加坡有明確的一貫的一個中國政策反對台獨的文字你看什麼看法因為你們已經對外所反駁可是在新加坡的新國裡面的外交部網站有特別註明了新加坡明確的一貫的一個中國的政策反對台灣獨立的文字你怎麼說"},{"start":5176.457,"end":5176.477,"text":"請委員："},{"start":5180.656,"end":5209.736,"text":"兩個字很重要的一個中國的原則跟一個中國的政策新加坡一直講的是一個中國的政策那麼中國把發新聞說新加坡講的是一個中國的原則這是偷糧換住移花接木的手法所以從這一點我們可以看得出來中國所發出來的訊息可能假訊息居多"},{"start":5210.816,"end":5233.69,"text":"這點我跟委員特別報告你不要再硬凹了好不好新加坡的他們自己的網站裡面就很明確的他只有一個中國而且反對台獨這是很明確但是你怎麼看待這樣的一個問題嘛你不要說文字上的一個遊戲跟解釋嘛"},{"start":5235.891,"end":5253.326,"text":"One China Policy跟One China Principle這個有很大的不同新加坡一直堅持是One China Policy中國把這個話放在他嘴巴講One China Principle他已經直接打你們的外交部的臉了嘛我不認為啊好來那你不用解釋再來我請經濟部經濟部來針對"},{"start":5262.358,"end":5273.826,"text":"針對加徵的關稅10%,川普對於貿易逆差非常反感,認為這代表美國的錢被賺走,近年來對台灣貿易順差的擴增,"},{"start":5277.308,"end":5298.844,"text":"目前美國對我的順差超過五百億美元經濟部認為我們會不會因此被川普盯上那川普政府會不會因為對台灣的貿易逆差而對我們採取針對性的要求或制裁你來回答"},{"start":5299.484,"end":5301.647,"text":"你的報告裡面有沒有寫健康的逆差或是"},{"start":5316.104,"end":5341.369,"text":"剛剛沒有提到貿易順差逆差這一段不過委員垂詢了我就來回應一下那麼我們出口到美國都是幫助美國振興製造業的產品也就是對美國其實是有利的和創造他就業機會的產品台美的合作會形成一個非常互惠互利而且堅韌的供應鏈所以這個我們要跟美方來說明那麼這個我們的貿易順差其實對美國是好的"},{"start":5341.869,"end":5357.361,"text":"那這個是明顯的事實,這任何經濟數據攤開來都可以看得到的。好,我們現在我們在探討另外一個問題。川普針對在競選的時候,他已經對所有美國的進口品都加徵了10%的關稅。那關於這個問題,經濟部,我們郭部長之前有說"},{"start":5363.605,"end":5392.511,"text":"因為是對大家加徵百分之十的關稅所以對我們的影響不明顯他講的是這整個每一個國家都是徵稅百分之十是不是這樣這是川普在競選上所講的對全面性的世界各國所有產品加徵百分之十到二十的關稅根據他的競選上的說法我們來做一個評估如果大家都立足點平等以台灣企業的競爭力不見得對我們有重大衝擊"},{"start":5393.131,"end":5420.024,"text":"所以這個言辭裡面那我們好像都是被霸凌的所以我們一樣被霸凌沒有關係我們是這種鴕鳥心態所以我們也有因應的對策為什麼要因應隱和他的10%的關稅所以這個就是你們經濟部要考慮的一個整個的觀點不要讓我們國人說川普講的我們必須要隱和他們的10%的關稅你們有因應的對策才對啊"},{"start":5423.326,"end":5441.128,"text":"那另外就是在美國加稅看起來很公平但我們之前郭部長卻覆列了這代表美國本土產業更具的優勢本席之前就有說過在川普眼中這個世界只分為一個美國和非美國"},{"start":5442.109,"end":5457.106,"text":"川普不會在乎台積電或三星的競爭誰輸誰贏他只會在乎如何讓所有外國企業輸給美國企業這樣的一個觀點裡面你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":5457.546,"end":5457.726,"text":"有關於我們在"},{"start":5483.51,"end":5500.468,"text":"報告主席再給我一分鐘川普曾經公開表示對於晶片的法案非常反感川普認為美國政府花錢補助外國企業是非常愚蠢的行為他認為讓晶片留在美國生產只要加關稅就好了從美國外"},{"start":5503.15,"end":5528.587,"text":"從國外進口的晶片加高關稅晶片大廠自然就會選擇在美國生產晶片那從這樣的一個角色來講的話有沒有可能我們的台積電會把這一些重要的這些二奈米的這個製程會留在台灣還是用在美國這未來可能會被威脅到我們台灣如何因應"},{"start":5529.707,"end":5547.147,"text":"外委員兩題第一題是它的晶片法的補助款這個我們從新聞上看到商務部跟台積電已經簽署了那麼美國的法律程序這個是不是就完全確定我這邊不敢妄言不過看起來是一個確定的補助案第二點至於台積電2奈米的製造"},{"start":5549.21,"end":5558.947,"text":"臺積電也不是因為66億美元才到美國設廠可是在技術上是不是會把重要的技術會因為這樣子會轉移到美國設廠"},{"start":5561.485,"end":5580.11,"text":"任何我國企業對外投資都要經過經濟部跟跨部會的投審會的審查我們當時同意他去設美國第二廠的時候經過非常詳細的評估也就是2奈米的生產在台灣2025年就投產美國2028年投產而且研發中心在台灣先進技術會在台灣"},{"start":5580.97,"end":5585.632,"text":"並且臺積電在臺灣的擴廠的速度遠高於它在世界擴廠的速度我們經過一個縝密的評估之後才給它許可所以你們要因應而且要縝密的來隨時注意到美國的動態對我們臺灣是非常很重要尤其是我們復古神山、臺積電我們如何在防範把技術轉移或者說要留住在臺灣"},{"start":5607.999,"end":5608.679,"text":"紅森漢 紅森漢 紅森漢委員不在接下來我們請許曉欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":5658.122,"end":5658.502,"text":"請田次長"},{"start":5670.977,"end":5685.402,"text":"市長您應該知道最近呢在勞動部裡面那有發生這個同仁的霸凌事件就在那個新聞上有看到然後呢這個發生對同仁的霸凌事件之後呢那就導致一位勞動部的這個同仁輕生"},{"start":5686.802,"end":5703.937,"text":"所以現在大家對於霸凌的問題都非常的重視那我想要知道外交部對於霸凌事件的相關處理辦法那如果有人遭到這樣子不公平的對待的話他有什麼樣的申訴管道你們會做出什麼樣的相關的懲處或應對措施"},{"start":5706.739,"end":5734.407,"text":"謝謝委員的提問其實現在各個公務機關也好私人機關也好對於霸凌這個事情它是跟個人權有關係的特別關注外交部也不例外外交部很早以前就成立了一個人事審查的委員會那麼所有的案件報上來以後它應該有一定的條件第一個必須要有具名"},{"start":5735.387,"end":5757.147,"text":"第二個必須要證明,不可以隨便寫,那到底處理不完。據名有實體的證據,我們內部就有成立一個委員會做一個調查,當事人也好,加害人也好,我們經過詳細的調查,還要從旁邊找出一些證據,我們要給公平的處理。"},{"start":5758.328,"end":5786.658,"text":"可是實際上面在職場遭受霸凌的時候被害者其實他是不敢用他的真名出來向你檢舉的大多數的情況都是這樣不然的話勞動部的那一名員工他也不需要在他的這個辦公室裡面質疑了他有很多檢舉的管道跟平台問題是他被霸凌是他的上司霸凌他所以他如果跳過去了像我們所謂您剛講的委員會去做這樣子的一個說明或是檢舉的話"},{"start":5787.958,"end":5804.187,"text":"那你處理了以後這個可能他的長官不過是被調動職務而已他反而這個被害人他可能會到更慘的境地這是我們看到職場霸凌裡面最容易發生的事好次長你先不用急著回答因為就有人向我檢舉"},{"start":5805.268,"end":5826.962,"text":"但是呢對方也不敢具名因為我剛剛要跟您提的事情是具名這件事情對被害人或是吹哨人的壓力很大我國現在還沒有正式的通過吹哨者保護法所以很多知道內情的想幫忙的他們不敢附上自己的名字我們今天呢等一下我會把檢舉信拿給次長"},{"start":5828.082,"end":5851.048,"text":"我們今天是接到我國駐沙烏地阿拉伯王國代表處的高層張某某因為還沒有確認我們先根據各自法保護他的名字的檢舉信那發生了幾件事情這個是首先他被指控當眾羞辱員工製造內部恐懼也就是"},{"start":5852.348,"end":5875.996,"text":"資深的員工如果對他來講不聽話他會直接將他們解雇所以這個我想外交部是很容易去查詢的就是說有沒有資深員工被臨時解雇的事情發生我的意思是不見得受害人他要親自出來講我們有很多可以交叉比對的機制就知道這封檢舉信他到底是真是假"},{"start":5878.237,"end":5887.486,"text":"2.多次與同仁爆發激烈衝突,在公開場合辱罵員工,造成員工的心理壓力2."},{"start":5887.486,"end":5897.154,"text":"也不需要當事人出來申訴小組,因為有沒有去辱罵員工,我們現在只要知道他針對的對象是沙烏地阿拉伯代表處"},{"start":5898.015,"end":5917.584,"text":"一個一個問就會知道有還是沒有了嘛總會有人你一個一個問的時候總會有人願意回答這個問題你就知道這個人到底是被誣賴的還是真有其事第三點更重要強迫贊助逼迫同仁為其買單為了補足代表處的"},{"start":5918.484,"end":5939.221,"text":"短缺經費﹚強迫同仁電款﹚並且使用經費來補助﹚破壞我們機構的紀律﹚也傷害了同仁的權益還有呢﹚沙烏地阿拉伯是禁止飲酒的﹚但是呢﹚他自己本身有喝酒的習慣﹚所以找了同仁陪他喝酒"},{"start":5940.341,"end":5968.854,"text":"這樣的話會對我國的整個外交形象造成非常嚴重的損害也可能引起當地政府與宗教界的不滿跟反感所以這件事情其實也很好查核多去問幾個同仁同仁你們有沒有曾經陪過這位張姓的高層有去飲酒只要有喝坦白說就已經違反人家沙烏地阿拉伯他們的教義就對我們的外表代表出來說是一件很嚴重的事情"},{"start":5969.554,"end":5986.451,"text":"再來,帳目混亂非法濫用資金這個部分也要請外交部去詳查。資金有沒有被濫用,透過包含是會計相關的查核,一定能夠查得出來。這是要查不查的問題,也不需要被害者站出來。"},{"start":5988.232,"end":6003.08,"text":"反復強迫職員陪同採購．他被指控．對於採購事務．要求員工要陪他去外出購物．導致與同仁沒有辦法在自己的本職上面工作．造成很多的不便跟困擾"},{"start":6004.881,"end":6019.634,"text":"我剛談到的是﹐最驚訝的是﹐這個重要的高層﹐張信的高層解雇了兩名資深的員工﹐而且對於菲律賓籍的外籍員工進行了非法的遣返"},{"start":6020.194,"end":6027.616,"text":"在沒有經過合法程序之下扣押菲律賓籍的員工的護照這樣子的舉動不僅是違反了國際勞工的法規還對我們在國際間的形象造成嚴重的損害"},{"start":6035.299,"end":6037.06,"text":"我想我剛講的內容相當的具體喔不是說好像一兩句這個抹黑的詞句他很明確的列出了這個項目那我剛剛所列舉的幾個事項也能夠讓我們的次長針對整個部分呢做很明確的查核"},{"start":6052.19,"end":6075.909,"text":"即便受害者本人沒有站出來不敢站出來剛才我提出的資料我相信從外交部直接我們去做調查是能夠去確認以上的幾點有哪些是真的那有沒有碰到問題能否展開調查我們今天要問的是次長能不能夠去調查並且在兩週內提供報告"},{"start":6079.481,"end":6103.212,"text":"委員如果您信交給我我回去馬上就在這裡那個主席我就把這個簡舉信交給我們的次長好不好因為只有裡面我才有寫出當事人的名字因為各自法保護的問題所以剛才我們是孤影其名但是這封簡舉信裡面是確實有提到這個我們剛剛講的人他的職位以及他的真實姓名"},{"start":6103.792,"end":6118.147,"text":"所以是不是可以請我們外交部在兩週之內提供報告讓我們知道說這樣子的一個霸凌的事件是否存在於我國駐沙烏地阿拉伯的王國代表處"},{"start":6119.128,"end":6146.235,"text":"報告委員我們是絕對公正的去調查而且絕對不會互短他如果做錯了一定要接受相當的懲罰但是兩週內我現在沒有辦法把時間因為要找一些證人去談沒關係那您可以告訴我說大概需要多少時間這樣子好不好兩週內我們可以把一些事證先找到那麼調查的結果可能我講一個月嗎"},{"start":6149.075,"end":6173.509,"text":"一個月好不好沒問題那我們就是兩週內做一些基本的事證先做初步的了解那這個調查報告我們就在一個月左右的時間來做回覆那謝謝次長因為現在我告訴次長說在每一個不是只有外交部在每一個部會裡面有一些性騷擾的不當管教的霸凌的事件是層出不窮"},{"start":6174.329,"end":6174.529,"text":"對,我不負擔"},{"start":6190.405,"end":6211.63,"text":"你們護得了他一時 護不了他一世啊他又不會每天在你眼皮子底下出現所以我們真切的希望能夠對於這樣子的一個議題進行相關的調查而且是詳細的調查否則對我們的這一些在這個外國的使節跟其員工造成很巨大的這個壓力"},{"start":6213.01,"end":6236.209,"text":"我們不希望勞動部的事件再一次重演如果發生那樣的事情的話我想我們在能夠阻止的時候就應該要盡量的阻止在有人提出檢舉的時候我不管他檢舉寫的有多少內容是真的是假的但是我們至少要盡到查核的義務所以今天為什麼我沒有把對方的名字跟他的工作寫出來就是為了確保"},{"start":6237.61,"end":6258.69,"text":"萬一裡面有一些不是事實的內容我們不要去誣賴到人家對但是呢該去調查的部分該去主動爭就不要講爭辦啦就是調查到底有沒有這件事的事情其實是外交部的責任當有人提出檢舉的時候外交部就有這樣子的責任針對每一個事件強加的調查"},{"start":6260.331,"end":6283.652,"text":"所以這個部分要再拜託外交部尤其是這只是一個案例如果還有其他收到檢舉性的情況我希望次長不要說今天對方沒有訓明我們就不查了我們先查那如果說對方當然是亂講的是誣賴的那這個事情就沒有但如果對方有詳細的列出一些細節只要他有可能"},{"start":6284.272,"end":6310.251,"text":"是真的那我們外交部應該要主動介入調查避免勞動部他們的員工類似的事件發生在我們外交部請問次長可以做得到嗎謝謝謝謝委員為這些受害者發聲我覺得非常重要我們要匡正這些問題不能讓這些問題持續的發酵這個對國家的形象也好對所有老百姓受害者都不是很好的事情"},{"start":6310.871,"end":6321.698,"text":"所以委員能夠提出來我也保證我們一定會盡我們的權力做詳細公正的調查好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝許巧行委員那請外交部一個月內提供報告給許委員田次長請回 謝謝接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢"},{"start":6343.941,"end":6351.549,"text":"主席有請我們田政次還有我們經濟部今天是陳政次嗎委員長"},{"start":6360.655,"end":6372.202,"text":"兩位早安我先請教一下田政次我們知道其實APEC這一次可以說還是因為中國的打壓跟施加奧步那麼希望在這中間當中能夠給台灣穿小鞋"},{"start":6375.223,"end":6399.335,"text":"那麼但是其實蠻可惜的是APEC它本身其實是一個就是讓亞洲地區的國家可以一起平起平坐來討論經貿發展的一個地方喔那我們當然知道其實台灣身為現在全球矚目的AI潛力國然後再加上我們的蛋白質晶片所以外交部其實是在密魯的代表處設置了這個台灣的電子看板那麼"},{"start":6400.598,"end":6404.603,"text":"我們在媒體當中他特別寫到的是我看了中央社"},{"start":6406.183,"end":6430.314,"text":"時間是台灣的11月16號報導當地媒體自稱中方人是為了不讓中國國家主席習近平的車隊下車抵達立馬途中看到台灣的看板所以就擅自將電子廣告斷電40分鐘另外有17名中國公民意圖強行拆除建築物上方的廣告看板"},{"start":6430.914,"end":6449.527,"text":"中央社的這樣的一個報導是不是屬實?也就是說我們外交部秘魯代表處所設置的這樣的看板因為為了讓習近平不要看到台灣這一個字眼太礙眼所以就公然的被斷電了嗎?"},{"start":6453.311,"end":6479.949,"text":"謝謝委員中國在各處都會想辦法給我們穿小鞋這一次的事件發生以後我們第一時間第一個時間就跟秘魯的政府先提出來然後跟廠商也提出來然後因為中國用很多澳布把那個想擋住讓習近平看不到這個我們都已經有想到過了所以我們透過幾種方式"},{"start":6483.472,"end":6500.708,"text":"政治方式呢米魯跟中國的關係是相當的好但是他也不能用這種方式來對待我們我們是APEC的正常21個會員體之一所以呢我們就提出了告訴"},{"start":6501.849,"end":6523.325,"text":"向廠商提出了告訴,當然中方在後面做了很多小動作,把店剪斷了,派人來照相,派人來擋這個東西,但是這個案子現在還沒有完,我們一定要跟他打到底,這個全世界也都在看,這些經濟體也看,其實他們這樣做,其實對他的國家並沒有好處"},{"start":6524.25,"end":6539.317,"text":"本席會特別提這個事情出來問的原因是因為本席是肯定代表處用這樣的方式讓台灣被世界看到只是這到底一共有幾面?六面還是七面?媒體講那被破壞的只有一面是不是這樣嗎?"},{"start":6542.742,"end":6559.419,"text":"他是這樣子喔,他有一個是香燈的廣告,然後還有T-Bar,T-Bar大概有7個,那麼大型的是一個,大型的一面所以大型的一面就是被斷電的這一面,不是?"},{"start":6560.58,"end":6578.238,"text":"其中的一面,好,這個過程當中,因為現在只有媒體的報導,所以真相是什麼,其實是很模糊的。我們必須要了解的是說,當代表處做了這樣一個讓台灣被世界看見的這樣一個做法跟作為,其實本席是肯定的,但是這過程當中,就如同政事所說的,被中國惡意、施壓、破壞"},{"start":6583.744,"end":6588.711,"text":"除了跟廠商提出告訴之外密魯政府我們也必須發出強烈抗議的聲明因為這明明就是一個商業的行為但是密魯政府如果沒有處理的話那麼就會變成是他公然在"},{"start":6599.725,"end":6626.186,"text":"中國的施壓底下來刻意矮化台灣而且讓這樣的一個商業行為受到阻止這對於APEC這樣的一個場域就是要讓整個亞洲地區的國家一起可以平等的來談經貿問題的時候這就是一個最壞的示範所以本席希望這件事情外交部必須要有態度而且要把它處理完之後把整個事件"},{"start":6627.39,"end":6629.966,"text":"給國防外交委員會．本席一個報告可以嗎?是"},{"start":6631.497,"end":6660.222,"text":"另外我想在這過程當中除了明目張膽的把台灣的T-Bar或者是電子看板斷電之外中國官方更是造謠前面沈博洋委員有特別提到我也關注這個問題那就是造謠的內容的媒體的我就不念了但是呢我們來看一下就是中國其實就造謠說這個拜習會當中習近平有講了賴清德三個字"},{"start":6661.51,"end":6685.956,"text":"那很多因為本席是媒體出來的很多時候如果現在有媒體直接就去抄中國的官媒不經查證當然我個人是覺得非常可惜啦但是他就全文照登照錄那麼遇到這樣的狀況的時候到底如果記者要求證或者像本席要求證因為我們看到是"},{"start":6689.417,"end":6713.009,"text":"根據了解習近平他在拜習會上是沒有提到賴清德三個字但是如果今天作為本席要來問政需求的時候這樣一個被中國官媒亂帶風向以至於台灣的媒體成為在地協力者或者是就直接不查證全文照登的時候那要查證"},{"start":6713.749,"end":6731.342,"text":"到底要問外交部還是問經濟部誰可以對這種在APEC發生的錯假訊息來做一個查證的窗口因為我們知道如果APEC的組織架構底下他會有經濟領袖會議嘛會有部長級會議那其實他有是跨經貿"},{"start":6733.363,"end":6759.22,"text":"那所以如果同樣的事件我們時光倒流本席看到了中國官媒特別寫了這個東西出來而且又有台灣的媒體全文照燈不經查證的時候那該怎麼辦本席現在拿出來的這個是自由時報但是他不是全文照燈他只是說據了解那到底這個了解的過程中未來還是像APEC發生這樣的事情的時候那麼應該是經濟部還是外交部"},{"start":6764.224,"end":6782.025,"text":"跟委員報告,我覺得這個從兩個方面來看,媒體自己現在要善用它的聯繫的方式,而且它的聲譽它要助長,它不能亂引用別的媒體來做這個,對它的聲譽其實是不好的。"},{"start":6782.626,"end":6802.365,"text":"那這個問題其實國安單位已經做出了一個澄清那國安單位大概澄清經過他詳細的查證三方的查證都沒有這個訊息顯然是他用他的假訊息那種資訊戰又來做這種事情所以我覺得是很清楚的"},{"start":6803.004,"end":6826.376,"text":"所以會看得到就是現在的國際場合當中中國他除了是大剌剌的小動作的穿小鞋變成小動作變成大動作之外媒體的訊息戰同樣的他也在進行當中而我們知道秘魯今年他們就搞了一個拜習會沒有講賴清德但是他就利用官媒來做處理然後來做一個認知上面的統戰"},{"start":6827.777,"end":6840.024,"text":"接下來下一場會議的時候外交部或經濟部有沒有針對這樣的因應的措施來做一個跨部會的討論呢?因為這個APEC外交部跟經濟部其實是一起主責嗎?還是政次?"},{"start":6853.569,"end":6871.583,"text":"報委員,我們有一個分工,像領袖會議是外交部來主責,這個年度的貿易部長會議是由外交部跟經貿辦,那麼其他的部長會看他的分工,比如說能源部長會議就經濟部主責,交通部長會議交通部主責,"},{"start":6872.664,"end":6886.116,"text":"婦女部長會議每年行政會會挑選適合的部長來代表大概是依照業務性質來分工但是這個在外交作為上我們經濟部都密切配合外交部一向在出發前大家都有一個跨部會的協商"},{"start":6887.108,"end":6913.583,"text":"好 所以說言下之意像這種有錯假訊息的時候你們第一時間有回報嗎那處理的SOP是什麼因為現在事後我們看到了就是大家都在都知道原來這是一個中國的認知作戰的套路其實在台灣被看到它就是一個手段跟方式那麼當這樣其他媒體以這種認知作戰的方式"},{"start":6914.503,"end":6934.085,"text":"直接全文照錄中國官媒而中國的官媒當然是一個錯誤的訊息被台灣的媒體所引用的時候發現事情到現在那麼後來我們有自由時報有根據國安單位的說法提到了那這整個處理的流程的SOP是什麼"},{"start":6939.123,"end":6957.995,"text":"因為像中國的官媒發出來以後我們馬上去了解他這個媒體所講的是對的還是錯的我們非常非常懷疑他講的東西都經過他的一些加料比如說我給你舉個例他又談到新加坡的事情"},{"start":6958.875,"end":6981.891,"text":"新加坡他又用這個新加坡同意一個中國的原則新加坡講的不是這樣子所以我剛剛講過他是偷糧換住移花解母做了很多當然我們各部會也要特別特別警惕我覺得我們跨部會要來成立一個如何來對應假訊息這個案子我覺得我們應該有這個"},{"start":6984.852,"end":7010.401,"text":"本席的提醒就是說其實現在這種案例已經非常多了包括之前我們的公股行庫到中國去被邀請參加活動然後呢在沒有經過同意底下照片被使用然後還是我們的公股行庫就跟對岸成立了所謂銀行之間簽訂了銀行之間的MOU那麼同樣這也是被"},{"start":7011.141,"end":7021.963,"text":"吃豆腐但是這種豆腐一旦被吃就很難被抹掉所以說本席是要提醒的是這樣的事件在我們參加更多的國際會議當中會不斷的同樣的模式會出現那麼他會動搖民心又或者是讓我們的執政變得更加的就是被穿小鞋又或者是被吃豆腐這樣的狀況你們需要擬定一套像這樣的錯假訊息那麼透過中國官媒之後"},{"start":7040.686,"end":7065.718,"text":"外銷轉他們的大外宣變成是我們內部的錯假訊息那希望你們能夠提出因應的SOP好嗎因為就像APEC一樣當我要求證這個訊息到底是真還是假的時候會出現不知道主責的到底是外交部還是經濟部那這個時候你們必須要有一套的處理的SOP出來好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":7070.929,"end":7078.811,"text":"謝謝林楚怡委員次長請回接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台質詢再來我們請外交部次長"},{"start":7100.396,"end":7116.015,"text":"請填次長次長早次長早齁總和外交是林教長部長他新任部長之後的一個主要政策對不對"},{"start":7116.823,"end":7146.038,"text":"那主要政策裡面是包含就是我們的科技、資金、人才一起走出去這樣講也沒有錯嘛那科技、資金、人才這三項東西的國際連結那最最基礎的東西是什麼我認為是安全就是安全的許可的機制在今年到現在應該也不是今年到現在2024年的我們給這個次長看一下的暗網公文也好或者是我們各個不同的外交部門的這一些"},{"start":7147.352,"end":7147.492,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":7164.565,"end":7185.483,"text":"接下來質詢國安局長的時候我都不斷的在強調說我們現在各個政府的部門非常不協調且模糊的安全席可機制已經被許多的國外智庫還有各國的情治的單位都有嚴厲的批判那在外交部在這個經濟人員在之前都會做一些實行調查"},{"start":7186.644,"end":7198.083,"text":"那我想請教一下後續是否有針對其因工作接觸的這些機密的資訊進行資格評估安全的資格評估主要是用哪個單位來審核評估多久評估一次"},{"start":7199.945,"end":7225.841,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員講的也是我們分兩個層次那麼新進的公務人員在外交學院結業以前我們會把這些即將要進入外交部的同仁的名單送給法務部調查局讓他調查局瞭解這些同仁的背景他的品格如果他有問題的話可能我們就不會錄取他這是第一點"},{"start":7226.821,"end":7242.956,"text":"進了外交部以後呢那比較高階的人員我們採用這個涉及國家安全重大利益公務員特殊的查核辦法要來查核他那麼多久查一次這個我想問一下我們多久查一次"},{"start":7244.042,"end":7262.837,"text":"我們好像沒有固定多久才是我必須說但是如果同仁要有異動的時候比如他要外放的時候或者從回來的時候或者他要升升官的時候他的階級調整的時候都會做一些背景的查核"},{"start":7263.878,"end":7286.32,"text":"謝謝,謝謝次長。這個很誠實、很直指核心的把我們的一些問題點出來。第一個就是說,從國務院到美國的國防部,到甚至他的各個不同的部門,他們的查核機制是持續性查核,這是不斷的在精進中。過去他可能是一年、兩年、三年查核一次,但是現在他們覺得說因應國家安全的這些挑戰,必須要持續性的查核,這是第一點。"},{"start":7286.94,"end":7311.757,"text":"第二點在美國的國務院還有外交安全局來做他們基本的一些審理那你剛剛提到的法務部其實過去我在國安會任職的時候他們有給我們填一張那填一張這個其實基本上是政府部門之間是不共通的這個機密等級的核可也就是說這個你填完之後基本上就是調你有沒有刑事的紀錄但是在美國的這個國務院的安全局裡面他們評估的範圍"},{"start":7313.078,"end":7338.771,"text":"其實是非常廣泛的包含有沒有用過度的酒精包含有沒有用特殊的藥物包含他的伴侶他的配偶以及他的這個經濟的這個財務狀況有沒有被影響這些都是持續的在做安全核可的特別是高級官員但目前我們聽起來很明顯的我們沒有這樣子的機制只有在調動的時候有這樣的機制那"},{"start":7339.631,"end":7368.954,"text":"我過去的經驗是基本上你提出來之後兩年之間就沒有再有任何更新的狀況所以我們沒有辦法因應一個外交官他的對外接觸他被外放的時候他的接觸的背景狀況我們沒有這個相關的局處去做因應調整的那事實上現在95%美國的安全合格合法的機構是由美國國防部底下的這個國防部反情報安全局來做處理的那當然國務院有自己的系統"},{"start":7369.594,"end":7370.375,"text":"我講這麼多的意思是什麼?"},{"start":7392.515,"end":7410.711,"text":"就是說我們今天遇到的總和外交你未來一定會跟國科會合作包括我們的太空科技的這個交流那是不是需要更緊密的、安全的、合格的這個機制才有辦法辦到還有經濟部你經貿談判的時候你是不是需要有跨部會的我才知道你的階密等級到不到啊"},{"start":7411.371,"end":7427.405,"text":"如果我們沒有每一個都各行其事的話那我認為這是一個對我們未來國家安全的保障是非常的是有威脅的可是我也理解現在的國家機密保護法的第14條有規定他說國家機密的支揮等等是由核定機關或者是上級機關"},{"start":7428.806,"end":7451.5,"text":"那我現在要鼓勵的是,包含我上次跟國安局講完了,跟國防部也質詢過就是我們變成要有一個跨部會的機制,就是跟國家情勢有關、國防、外交、安全有關的話必須要重新審理出一套安全核可的方法所謂安全核可的方法就是說,當你的security clearance的時候,比方說你的機密等級是機密"},{"start":7453.121,"end":7475.772,"text":"必須在這些政府是共通的我的安全核可就是到機密等級但不代表說你就可以接觸到外交部的機密等級的文件你有這個安全核可不代表你可以接觸到除非你必須要知道這些資訊才可以完成履行你的公務任務的話那你就可以知道"},{"start":7476.769,"end":7498.468,"text":"安全核可配合need to know這是最基本的一個做法可是很遺憾的從國安會到外交部到其他的部門我們現在沒有一套完整跨部會的機制那基本上美國政府的各個聯邦機構如果你的安全核可是比方說是機密等級他們是會互相承認除非特殊例外"},{"start":7498.968,"end":7513.878,"text":"除非特殊例外就是極端敏感的機制極端敏感的這個情緒的話他們不會讓他有這樣子的接觸但是其實基本上是這樣共通的所以我們我不希望重新發明輪值因為重新發明輪值是一個需要很長的時間跟資源"},{"start":7515.419,"end":7541.281,"text":"但是現在已經到這個時間點了已經不僅僅是一次、兩次、三次不僅是一個智庫、兩個智庫不僅是我們的友邦的海軍、空軍、陸軍還是外交的單位都一再的強調說這是我們共同面對的問題是不是次長可以檢討一下這些方案跨部會的來討論一下有沒有可能有一個願板的重新來思考一下我們的安全合格成績"},{"start":7542.502,"end":7562.397,"text":"其實我們政府是有發了一個特殊查核辦法行政院跟考試院的但是剛剛您提的跨部會比如說今天我要看看經濟部的一些機密等級的東西我有沒有clearance可能我們現在"},{"start":7564.291,"end":7579.291,"text":"應該是沒有那麼經濟部要看外交部的東西可能也是沒有但是呢我們可以透過一個公文交換的形式那麼在保密的情況之下可以去看他的公文"},{"start":7580.592,"end":7597.562,"text":"這個在部會之間可以做這方面的交流但是我沒有辦法就是主動到經濟部說我有這個clearance我可以看什麼東西不是不是所以市長你剛才沒有理解你是這個意思嗎你剛好是剛好相反不好意思沒關係市長這沒有關係我慢慢來再講一次就是說"},{"start":7599.074,"end":7615.877,"text":"除非你需要知道並且有這個合可的層級你才能知道那沒關係這個細節的部分我們今天不談我們今天講的是跨部會的這樣子的協調跟你的揭密等級比方說我們現在在看一些很多預算的話我有哪些是需要知道的"},{"start":7616.878,"end":7637.643,"text":"並且是我有這樣的揭秘層級我才能知道所以我們不是要放寬保密的這個狀況而是要加強我們保密的能力這是一個基本上的不同那你剛剛說公文交換那其實又回到我們最基礎的一個我們最基本最邊緣的一個問題嘛像之前國防部內部的一個由廉政署派駐的三等辦事員"},{"start":7638.922,"end":7660.487,"text":"那他把這個公文他不需要知道的東西他把它傳送到其他不同的等於說把降級軍官的所有的個資等於是用透過內網的方式分散給所有接收人嘛所以他不需要知道這麼多他不需要有這麼多渠道但是他卻有這個渠道他的揭秘層級跟他所需要的渠道是不符合不吻合的嘛"},{"start":7661.067,"end":7673.631,"text":"所以我必要說這是一個跨部會的問題所以我們需要來去處理我真的是希望大家可以來討論一下安全核可的這個部分各個部門都把它放在心中那接下來我想要請教一下陳次長經濟部的陳次長"},{"start":7683.383,"end":7697.478,"text":"市長剛才你有提到我們台灣的這一個大幅度的對美的順差的部分你剛剛說這是好的是良性的是有利的這一個順差那就對就是有利的對美的對美國來講就是逆差"},{"start":7698.459,"end":7713.619,"text":"是不是可以請你來稍微解釋一下什麼叫做是好的那我剛剛我聽到你跟前幾個我們在野黨的立委來解釋我覺得我們的那個論述外交部要跟上經濟部的這個論述我覺得是好的但是外交部要跟上是不是可以舉細節舉例來說明第二個"},{"start":7716.883,"end":7737.556,"text":"你覺得你這樣的說法﹖未來的川普的新政府會接受嗎?不好意思張偉再麻煩你給我解釋一下我簡短的回應第一點我所謂健康的逆差從美國的角度來講應是配合他的政策當他的政策是要發展製造業是要發展人工智慧是要發展先進製造業的時候我們出口到美國的東西主要是半導體"},{"start":7738.576,"end":7756.18,"text":"資通訊產品或伺服器等都是有助於美國發展製造業必要的中堅材,而且台灣供應的價格最合理,品質最穩定,而且是最可信賴的夥伴。幾十年來,台灣幫美國代工從來沒有洩密,從來沒有損毀我們客戶的利益。"},{"start":7760.481,"end":7786.859,"text":"第二點剛剛委員是垂詢說川普政府能不能接受這個我們只能來努力了因為川普不是一個人他是一個執政團隊我們要全面性的跟美國執政團隊來溝通好 非常謝謝次長剛才的說法我是接受的那第一點美國現在面臨的是再工業化那再工業化他是他們的主軸之一把製造業留下來把工作機會留下來所以這個部分次長你現在我們不是只有用形容詞我希望你把數據"},{"start":7788.22,"end":7805.352,"text":"分享給外交部讓外交部能夠未來我們的這個narrative我們的說法我們架構不要說這個再跟川普我們還是用過去的一套的說法面對不同的美國政府你要不同的策略跟戰略來去說明"},{"start":7806.132,"end":7827.316,"text":"那這一個部分我是希望這個次長跟外交部我們再做這個特別是有一個縮帖要給民眾知道的這也是非常重要的那這一個部分我就先質詢到這邊因為時間的關係但是我還是強調現在的總和外交不再是價值外交了價值外交只是總和外交的一部分不要每次國會議員在質詢的時候重複的講一些套話"},{"start":7832.711,"end":7854.353,"text":"我們或許會買單美國政府不見得會買單經濟貿易科技良性的順差你要怎麼去解釋讓對方能夠認可如果我們解釋不好的話中國的這些各個不同的這種錯假亂訊息就會利用我們的這種說法來去攻擊我們"},{"start":7855.362,"end":7857.563,"text":"先宣告待會馬文君委員質詢完畢之後休息5分鐘"},{"start":7896.055,"end":7899.058,"text":"我們下面請李宇君委員來發言質詢。謝謝主席。請外交部填次長。次長早。首先請問次長,無論是內部還是外部的因素,那目前台美的關係是不是現在史上是最好的關係?"},{"start":7925.494,"end":7928.083,"text":"當然,台美的關係一向來說"},{"start":7929.997,"end":7953.892,"text":"都是非常健康的而且非常持續的不論是誰當上總統因為川普也做過一任拜登在做現在川普在上來這關係是非常好但是當然也有他的變數現在川普第二任上來也有他的變數那我們要怎麼樣去掌握這個變數"},{"start":7956.719,"end":7959.932,"text":"讓這個關係能夠持續地往前走這是我們最重要的任務"},{"start":7960.794,"end":7985.313,"text":"好 那美國總統大選大家也知道已經結束了嘛照例勝選的一方會開始安排可能的內閣人士那川普安排內閣名單其實速度是史無前例啦但是現在美國的內閣官員從提名到上任可能要經過一些程序最主要的就是要讓國會行使人事任命權過濾掉一些不適任的官員"},{"start":7986.674,"end":7987.395,"text":"請問次長都有掌握嗎?"},{"start":8001.859,"end":8017.53,"text":"都有每一個現在提出的提名的被提名的人我們都會去了解他的背景而且他對於台灣的態度跟中國的態度等等他的以前所的發言到底是什麼我們都有掌握"},{"start":8018.444,"end":8033.659,"text":"因為這個不像我們台灣一樣總統直接任命也不用管這些人有沒有爭議是不是合適任那請問就次長你的判斷這幾個人選裡面有哪些可能沒有辦法通過美國參議員的人士任命的同意呢?"},{"start":8034.54,"end":8059.78,"text":"委員你這問題就難倒我了我沒有辦法在這裡回答你好那外交部是不是有掌握呢哪些人可能會通過哪些人可能會沒有辦法通過人事任命外交部應該是都會有評估吧報告委員這個我想這個權責是在他們參議院還有他的總統提名所以我想在這個階段外交部也不便做任何的評論跟評估沒關係那次長你如果不敢公開也不用勉強你但是想要再請教次長"},{"start":8064.284,"end":8092.321,"text":"就是這次川普點名的內閣官員裡面基本上都沒有看到他上一任任期的官員出現那你覺得這是為什麼呢當然我也只能從目前的一些報導來看他的這個趨勢第一個他可能是對他的忠誠度這是絕對需要的第二個他的政治的理念可能跟川普是同一個方向的"},{"start":8093.373,"end":8112.595,"text":"第三個我覺得有一個年輕化的趨勢年輕化的趨勢我想我可以看出的大概幾個方向大概是這樣子那麼確實怎麼樣的情況可能要他那個成立通過以後我想我們再做進一步的了解"},{"start":8113.155,"end":8139.56,"text":"那我再請教次長一個問題就是你覺得美國內閣官員的人事任命的這個程序是不是是一個好的制度呢那你覺得我們中華民國政府是不是也應該採取這個美國內閣官員的人事任命的方式過濾掉一些不適任的人選呢就像你擔任這個職務就非常的適任嘛因為你有非常豐富的外交的理念那你覺得中華民國是不是應該也採納這個制度呢"},{"start":8143.849,"end":8170.827,"text":"我覺得各個制度有它的強的有它的弱、有它的好、有它的缺陷所以我不辯置評了不過我覺得現在台灣目前的走的方式其實第一個速度也會比較快第二個也是用人因材用他的人所以我想台灣這個人才的挑選"},{"start":8173.143,"end":8176.087,"text":"爭議性可能少過現在"},{"start":8178.612,"end":8179.072,"text":"我現在有請國發會副主委和經濟部的次長"},{"start":8214.634,"end":8234.551,"text":"首先請問國發會的副主委和經濟部的次長,現在美國總統大選落幕了,確定川普勝選嗎?問題是因為川普在競選的時候,有多次高喊要對進口貨品,還有對中國要加徵60%的關稅,也直指台灣都搶走了美國晶片的生意。"},{"start":8235.311,"end":8235.552,"text":"報告委員,我先回應好了"},{"start":8253.922,"end":8271.471,"text":"川普在第一任任期裡面他在執政之前在就職之前講了很多世界上都認為不太可能發生但他都真的發生所以我們不敢對川普在競選期所講的任何的言論掉以輕心我們密切的觀察"},{"start":8272.111,"end":8294.214,"text":"但是如果對全世界來科證關稅的話﹖他還是有一些我們要來密切注意﹖比方說他是不是真的會用緊急命令來做這件事情﹖他對WTO的態度怎麼樣﹖世界各國跟他互動怎麼樣﹖他的執政團隊會做什麼樣的評估﹖還有他要怎麼落實執行﹖他的國會是不是支持等等﹖我們都必須要密切的觀察"},{"start":8294.614,"end":8321.071,"text":"但是我們並不支持這樣加徵關稅的做法因為這個會造成全世界貿易的這個遲滯對世界經濟並不好所以這個是但是我們必須要面對這個可能發生事來密切因應那第二點關於金幣的部分我們當然在這邊要公開而且正式的來說台灣今天的半導體的發展是靠我們自己努力以及全球供應鏈"},{"start":8321.852,"end":8321.872,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":8351.055,"end":8367.753,"text":"那我想問一下就是說像APEC在秘魯登場了但是現在我們值得關注的是由中國出資幫秘魯建了一個前開港在本月是營運那中國國家的主席習近平也參與開幕剪裁根據外媒指出中國透過資金去"},{"start":8369.955,"end":8383.343,"text":"建這個前坎坎的話對秘魯提出了多項的要求其中包括提名了2026年的APEC的會議主辦國CPTPP創始會員秘魯拒絕批准台灣加入申請案那中國現在在對台灣加倍的施壓那勸說各國鄰近的國家都切斷跟台灣的關係的互動並聲稱台灣是屬於中國的領土請問這些你們有掌握嗎?"},{"start":8399.671,"end":8414.749,"text":"有關中國跟秘魯之間的關係他們兩國的相關的交易我們目前當然我們就密切觀察這個是主要配合外交部在進行那麼有關CPTPP的部分"},{"start":8415.209,"end":8427.598,"text":"目前公開的確定的原則是所謂奧克蘭山原則也就是說必須要有高標準的執行貿易協定能力有良好的過去遵守貿易協定的時機第三個得到會員的共識"},{"start":8432.982,"end":8443.834,"text":"這個東西國際局勢瞬息萬變,我們也在努力,這個主要是行政院經貿談判辦公室在主政,經濟部會配合他利用各種雙邊經貿對話還有經濟合作的各種計畫裡面來推動CPTPP的業務"},{"start":8451.601,"end":8462.976,"text":"好那我再請教一下次長如果萬一未來與中國ECFA真的如果被迫終止了那中國又用金錢外交的誘惑之下台灣要加入CPTPP你覺得還有機會嗎因為畢竟我們台灣為了"},{"start":8466.581,"end":8474.828,"text":"加入CPTPP完全要配合美國要求還有美國交換的經濟利益因為為此我們也開放了韓萊克多巴胺的美豬引發爭議更不斷的向美國購買武器表面上好像跟美國有關係友好讓台美關係持續的強化實質上對台灣想要加入CPTPP其實好像又是遙遙無期但你覺得我們這個月底會有好消息傳回嗎?"},{"start":8494.502,"end":8517.739,"text":"報告委員美國並不是CPTPP的會員國這第一點第二點當時開放萊克多安德這個是因為美方要求我們履行過去的承諾我們只是履行承諾但是政府為人民的健康把關仍然非常的嚴謹那麼年底之前傳來加入CPTPP的訊息大概不太可能這麼快但是我們繼續努力"},{"start":8519.427,"end":8522.929,"text":"主席再給我兩分鐘我再請教一下經濟部的次長再請教次長2018年美國對包括台灣在內的許多國家施加了綱旅的關稅那請問這個形同對台灣的貿易壁壘目前還沒有對台灣豁免對不對沒有"},{"start":8540.384,"end":8541.505,"text":"據瞭解2018年之後這幾年間美國已經陸續延長或完全豁免對歐盟、日本、韓國、墨西哥還有加拿大等國家的綱領關稅對吧?"},{"start":8553.937,"end":8564.339,"text":"對,有部分國家獲得貨...那既然我們現在台美關係事實上最好的為什麼還有什麼理由不能要求美國撤銷對我們的鋼鋁關稅呢?而且現在美國為了想要確保他們自己國家的國防產業及所有的鋼鋁製品相關的供應鏈不會因為政治因素受到干擾開始提倡所謂的有案外包那現在不是正好是一個台灣向美國提議免除鋼鋁關稅的最好時機嗎?"},{"start":8584.344,"end":8611.022,"text":"第一 美國為什麼不豁免台灣的關稅這個事情我們一直在跟美方溝通真正的理由恐怕要由美方來說明但是我方認為應該要給我們豁免這第一點第二點我們對美國出口的鋼我們的鋼產業大概75%供內需25%外銷我們對美國鋼鐵的出口事實上是成長的也就是說因為我們的品質、競爭力還有差異化的結果事實上美國對我們的鋼是有需求"},{"start":8611.542,"end":8611.842,"text":"好,是,謝謝委員"},{"start":8649.11,"end":8651.811,"text":"接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請田政務次長請田次長"},{"start":8684.468,"end":8694.256,"text":"委員長,市長好。今天聽取你的報告,其中剛好跟我原本準備質詢的內容是coherent﹖所以我們可以這個﹖"},{"start":8700.529,"end":8722.815,"text":"您看第一個就您提到了就是在賴總統就職時候提到的產業鏈但是這個五個大產業鏈在美國總統這個新總統就職後那麼因為有些牽動互動的關係在談判的過程我想我們外交部同仁要花很大的功夫那麼尤其是這個順序"},{"start":8728.217,"end":8728.297,"text":"主席"},{"start":8739.114,"end":8760.629,"text":"實際上是並不夠的只是專業的少數人才那我們必須要考慮到也就是兩奈米的過去雖然說是經濟部認為在2025、2028兩個國家的生產製程跟這個良率過程中間我們還是佔有優勢但是我們必須考慮到就不要人才太早被人家一下挖角挖走了"},{"start":8761.609,"end":8781.765,"text":"另外提出一點就是剛才也提到台美貿易中間不管是從美國角度看是逆差或是從台灣角度看是論差這個順差545億那我提出一個建議因為美方會要求我們持續在軍事採購"},{"start":8783.346,"end":8811.746,"text":"不管是透過FMS案子或是DCS案子那要增加額度我的建議就是未來是不是在Monterey Talk的時候能夠跟美方提出一個建言就是到某一個百分比的GDP以上這個軍售可以去抵消我們的貿易順差這樣子在關稅談判中間我們有一個有利的一個Leverage這個沒有對錯只是要透過因為這個是等於是跨"},{"start":8813.136,"end":8834.374,"text":"外交部、經濟部還有國防部來談這個差額一邊是我向你採購的軍售裝備的價錢持續在投資增加另外一方面你又因為我的順差增加了所以希望要我們的稅要增加這個部長您是不是可以提供一些建言"},{"start":8835.633,"end":8861.628,"text":"委員謝謝我覺得這個是非常重要的一個談判的籌碼那麼你不能說只要我們在軍工業方面的就是一直增加事實上很多貿易的等等都要放在一籃子裡面去考慮所以謝謝我覺得這個意見我們會回去跟部長做反應是這個因為是要跨部會了包括經濟部跟國防部"},{"start":8866.215,"end":8869.516,"text":"這是一個方法論,就過去8年來,不管是前面的川普"},{"start":8888.019,"end":8914.72,"text":"拜登現在又回到回去了基本上以美國一個強權來講他的美國的利益優先他是強勢威懾鬥而不破合作的和和平的和和而不和製造議題他要主導談判那尤其是這個川普總統他是一個非常就是說充滿自信自負的我這邊有一個4年前我買的我把他這句話講給你聽"},{"start":8922.401,"end":8935.508,"text":"我這四年前買的那從這張圖像上啊你可以看到美國政府啊尤其是對中共啊這個所有的條件談判啊他就是優秀的調整"},{"start":8937.108,"end":8957.439,"text":"他只是向右走走到壓力升高了然後又回溯回來他們的專業就是同步施壓法律作為然後呢形塑氛圍軍演表態然後再開始談那這個東西我是建議我們可以提供這個參考的資料給這個外交學院呢作為一個教學的運用的參考"},{"start":8958.979,"end":8972.467,"text":"這個部分我們去對應美中之間的競合之間就說那個四個C不管是cooperation, competition或者是confrontation但是它最後還是一個communication"},{"start":8975.177,"end":8999.133,"text":"因為剛才前面委員也談到就是說我們很多跨部會中間一個協調不足的地方其實我也提出來了因為美國的川普上來以後他還是要提出他的新的國家安全戰略因此他的商務部、貿易部、國防部跟他其他部會他會有一個同步調的國家政策的指導"},{"start":9000.033,"end":9022.508,"text":"這個也是我們在推動希望我們政府能夠推動國家安全戰略不是國家安全法國家安全戰略法因為1986年的高尼法案裡面就提出了這項那我們希望推動的過程中間是站在支持外交、國防整個國家的領域上面我們希望提供一個工具做參考下一頁"},{"start":9024.619,"end":9025.139,"text":"國安局執行局長"},{"start":9042.305,"end":9069.891,"text":"這個是就是維護我們的憲法中華民國這是我們的目的我們的方法是要臺灣安全兩岸交流內外折衷國際商協那最後呢外面有很多的手段了有推判預測了有妥協了有宏觀了有圍觀有合作了反思了這個方法論呢如果你把它做一個Clockwise的轉動它會產生一些不同的成果那我這個建議也是提供這個"},{"start":9072.071,"end":9086.006,"text":"Mofa同仁做一個參考我們希望未來在這個在這個所謂的外交學院把這些新的東西用一個AI的輔助工具根據這個圖像那麼我現在請AI"},{"start":9091.94,"end":9093.621,"text":"美國總統大選後：立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":9110.057,"end":9122.303,"text":"提供美國的支持在國際組織中的參與,例如WHO和IKO,以增強台灣的全球存在。﹐與同性戀國家合作,以抵抗台灣的獨立主義行動。﹐地域聯盟﹐努力進入地域模式﹐例如印度西部經濟模式﹐並強調台灣的戰略重要性在全球供應鏈上。﹐提高經濟安全﹐"},{"start":9146.398,"end":9163.89,"text":"我向您報告這只是一個用AI的輔助工具只是用上面的八塊手法就AI做出英文的分析沒有對跟錯那如果你把它這個轉動它會彈出更不同的結果所以現在有很多的"},{"start":9164.75,"end":9188.669,"text":"就是方法論這個是我們可以提供做部裡面做一個幕僚做地區問題的分析的一個參考工具這個我也建議將來可以把這個東西納到這個所謂的外交學院因為那邊用教學的工具方法那這個東西產生的結果在做政策上面的研析判斷的時候可以省掉一些事而不是誰對誰錯那這個我們會後把這個東西提供您這邊做參考"},{"start":9196.848,"end":9214.497,"text":"謝謝委員您的質詢我覺得內容非常非常的精密您自己也做過很多的功課我想這個東西對不管是對現任的或者我們將來外交部新進的同仁都是一個很好的教學的資料"},{"start":9215.217,"end":9227.04,"text":"我也會請外交學院去找一個機會讓新進的同仁或者從國外調回來調動的同仁也去上上這個課我覺得對他們是有很大的幫助"},{"start":9228.106,"end":9246.089,"text":"所以過去本席也跟外交部同仁在國外共同努力也共同分享經驗也感覺到外交部這個擔負的責任那麼也互動學習學了很多我們再次表達感謝跟支持之意也謝謝部長謝謝次長您謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝謝謝陳永康委員次長請回"},{"start":9256.121,"end":9257.842,"text":"接下來我們請馬文君委員上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩請麻煩請外交部還有經濟部謝謝請田次長陳次長"},{"start":9287.43,"end":9304.231,"text":"毛委員早市長早今天部長還在立陶宛這一次去歐洲只去立陶宛嗎還有另外還有到還有到哪裡"},{"start":9305.196,"end":9309.762,"text":"主要是立陶宛嗎?主要立陶宛無人機他帶了20個無人機的廠商去把台灣優質的無人機產業帶到歐洲去"},{"start":9323.375,"end":9338.149,"text":"我想請教一下因為部長他上任以後提出很多新的外交模式像是價值外交、經貿外交、同盟外交以及總和外交等等那想請教次長是不是簡單的說明價值外交的他大概的核心的意義是什麼"},{"start":9346.584,"end":9370.469,"text":"價值外交我們從比較抽象的就是民主、自由、人權那麼比較實在的就是台灣現在所進行的高科技所有那些晶片的產業都在世界上非常非常重要的產業還有台灣的一些精密機械等等各國都會需要然後呢"},{"start":9371.349,"end":9390.386,"text":"還有一個就是智慧我們用智慧農業、智慧醫療這個都是台灣可以跟其他國家一起分享的價值那這些價值我想請教一下次長有一個德中協會您知道嗎?還是德台協會知道嗎?"},{"start":9395.39,"end":9400.253,"text":"我本人想就教一下1957年的時候最初是由德國聯邦議院成員組成長期關注德台的關係的長期發展而且是德國最早促進跟台灣關係的一個協會他也是非營利組織他主要目的是推動國際理解"},{"start":9415.563,"end":9438.156,"text":"提倡維護照顧和加強德國與中華民國之間的各種關係在2020年的時候他原來叫德中協會2020年的時候這個協會改名為德台協會這個部分市長知道嗎這個我不清楚跟委員報告60年了其他的同仁都不知道這個協會嗎到前面講好不好如果要"},{"start":9444.239,"end":9445.86,"text":"經濟部,這個協會直到目前還是當地民間最大的友台團體"},{"start":9460.615,"end":9472.045,"text":"成員超過100人,他涵蓋德國的外交官、學者、國會議員跟台灣的僑民,跟台灣駐德代表處關係密切,過去也時常共同舉辦經濟、文化、學術等相關講座。從1989年以來,該協會每次在聯邦選舉"},{"start":9480.692,"end":9486.895,"text":"的時候都會發起德國國會、柏林、臺北友好小組促進和加強傳播文化而且也促進台灣跟德國之間的文化交流這個成立在60年前的德台協會長期支持台灣推動合作首先我們看到就好幾個例子就是說他在推動國家人權委員會主委陳菊在訪問柏林的時候他們促成他參加德國的國會座談"},{"start":9509.807,"end":9514.411,"text":"也安排德國國會友台小組訪台拜會蔡前總統這個都不是很久以前的事情那還有曾經主動促成農事所跟林事所跟德國合作嘗試在台灣的漁電經驗引介到德國這個在民國111年的時候因為漁電共生這個前不久才推的政策而且這個跟農委會"},{"start":9537.051,"end":9546.762,"text":"就是之前農委會現在農業部有關也是在經濟部底下的我想要請教如果連這樣子次長都沒聽過你不知道這個協會各位報告我確實不曉得經濟部知不知道"},{"start":9555.268,"end":9581.321,"text":"報委員這裡面我們要回去釐清一下再跟委員回報因為我們跟德國的經貿團體包括工商協會是有往來的但他用什麼名稱呈現出來尤其用中文來表示說德台協會我們要去確認是不是同講的同一個團體這第一點第二點我們跟這個德國駐台辦事處裡面他在德國的工商協會在這邊有一位專員那麼我們是透過這個專員跟德國工商團體建立這個"},{"start":9584.784,"end":9592.184,"text":"對話的管道所以的確我們跟這個德國的工商團是有往來可是是不是這個德台協會這部分我們要回去釐清一下"},{"start":9593.168,"end":9617.973,"text":"我再次跟外交部還有經濟部今天兩位次長在這裡德台協會回去以後馬上查查一下他在這個整個過程當中因為在110年的時候農委會突然改變以往的做法就是用研究計畫的方式來管考台德協會那時候是疫情發生的當下所以你用這樣子的做法"},{"start":9618.673,"end":9640.002,"text":"說研究啊什麼的在疫情當下全球很多東西都是沒有辦法執行的所以用這樣子來看他的那個執行成效不好那時候如果你再回過去看看我們外交部還有我們的農業部就是過去的農委會你們看看你們在疫情的時候做了什麼或者有哪些沒有做的所以當你用這樣子來管考"},{"start":9641.363,"end":9652.95,"text":"今天因為你們都說不知道回去馬上今天下午馬上就是希望可以給我們一個訊息待會因為到目前為止農委會在111年的時候單方面就是把它廢止掉了它的在農委會時期頒訂的這個作業要點那也把每年定期舉辦的聯席會議停止"},{"start":9665.307,"end":9682.737,"text":"因為我們剛剛講了那麼多今天他有100人的一個成員而且高達60年的時間而且他涵蓋包括國會議員包括很多的一些相關的人士如果說我們價值外交我們這個經費才多少聽說是200多萬不給人家而且人家提出來了還已讀不回這是在農業部現在發生的"},{"start":9690.442,"end":9704.262,"text":"所以外交部也希望可以去監控這個不然你有什麼價值外交立陶宛都已經說我們那個台灣立陶宛台灣代表處台灣經貿代表處是不是"},{"start":9708.649,"end":9734.902,"text":"他們連這個名稱都要改甚至在之前不久因為在選舉過後我們把一些半導體的投資案他們也片面已經都先說雖然你昨天有提出來新的說那個要暫緩他們的電力供應不足用這樣的理由還有他們的土地開發要變更還來不及唯有想要終止跟台灣的半導體的合作我們馬上率"},{"start":9735.882,"end":9737.324,"text":"我們的外交部長馬上率很多的廠商過去還包括無人機的聯盟就是漢翔的董事長也過去了"},{"start":9745.188,"end":9773.887,"text":"人家一直一直在終止我們的很多的我們等於熱聯替人家冷屁股然後投資的合作的都好幾億好幾億我們就馬上很要緊似的就然後去跟人家講結果這個只是要兩百多萬人家都已經先電款了我們卻不把錢給人家而且還已讀不回這個部分下去馬上查查清楚迅速在今天可以先給我們初步的一個調查的結果還有書面報告可不可以"},{"start":9776.589,"end":9783.655,"text":"外交部也要讀出這個部分因為過去是跟外交部後來採用農業的部分是由農委會跟就是現在的農業部要講什麼把它講清楚公務員再回覆一下立陶宛那家那家公司確實他是電力跟土地的問題但是這並沒有終止我們跟立陶宛半導體的合作"},{"start":9803.01,"end":9819.323,"text":"他們在新聞上面出來的是這樣我不知道是不是認知作戰就像你們剛剛在講的新加坡有沒有講說他們支持一個中國原則你們去看看新加坡的網站人家就是一個中國的原則反對台獨寫得清清楚楚不用搖頭回去看他的網站今天我們的前經濟部長林慶義代表我們去參加IPEC對不對他有邀請拜登總統"},{"start":9831.132,"end":9832.596,"text":"以後有機會可以到台灣來訪問拜登總統他說還會"},{"start":9836.482,"end":9841.965,"text":"可是美國的媒體有寫嗎?有寫這段嗎?他不是因為他有沒有寫,然後他講的就是假的,我們要懷疑林信義部長他講的是假的嗎?今天一直在講說哪一個媒體寫什麼,中方的媒體出什麼,美方的媒體出什麼,那個一點意義都沒有,那個才是真正的任職作戰。我們要的是務實的,我們今天花了那麼多錢,每年的外交預算不斷不斷的增加,可是我們現在獲得的成果才是我們要的。"},{"start":9864.815,"end":9867.698,"text":"結果如果有其他的有我的組織只需要一點點的經費我們卻已讀不回這是非常大的羞辱今天如果你有發現什麼樣問題應該要很誠意的解決如果我們認同認為他有什麼不恰當的也應該要說明清楚包括經濟部還有包括我們的"},{"start":9885.874,"end":9905.688,"text":"外交部這一點我們希望這個應該要本於我們在所有的外交推動上面如果你連這個都做不好你要怎麼說你跟其他國家可以做得好這個部分可以迅速的提出來我們會趕快查一下那經濟部我再利用一點點時間請經濟部陳次長漢翔你有沒有聽說他要引進外籍勞工移工報委員這部分我沒有資訊"},{"start":9917.079,"end":9919.38,"text":"如果漢祥的董事長回來的時候請確切的查查清楚漢祥為什麼要用外籍移工當他說我們F16我們用了一千多億的預算去給漢祥他說要做亞太維修中心F16的亞太維修中心"},{"start":9936.711,"end":9962.828,"text":"當他說要做永英號當他現在是無人機的產業聯盟他們都說要創造我們國內的就業機會可是我們看到的他卻要引進外籍移工尤其是做我們的都是我們高級民性的都是我們重要的一個武器裝備你卻要引進外籍移工中科院有嗎你今天如果你做不來那你就不要引就不要答應這麼多的工作你亞太外交中心現在連一台的那個"},{"start":9964.989,"end":9966.11,"text":"我們回去查覆以後再回覆委員"},{"start":9986.584,"end":10013.93,"text":"我們現在強烈反對如果因為漢想不是一般的公司企業我們有很多缺工的狀況因為你其他的工作需要這樣子的外籍移工來協助可是你漢想不是所以你經濟部有很重要的一個角色當初我們的公和典書全部給他花光了你今天都沒有創造我們的工作機會而且漢想的勞務派遣甚至高達一千多人"},{"start":10014.89,"end":10015.671,"text":"馬文君委員休息5分鐘"},{"start":10046.362,"end":10046.402,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":10071.287,"end":10077.592,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10096.655,"end":10099.279,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10115.025,"end":10119.849,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10126.766,"end":10131.018,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10162.547,"end":10167.29,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10183.458,"end":10184.018,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10222.841,"end":10245.607,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10276.129,"end":10276.91,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10305.036,"end":10305.597,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10317.762,"end":10322.303,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10345.532,"end":10345.832,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10382.246,"end":10390.092,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10412.874,"end":10421.458,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10448.228,"end":10451.79,"text":"我們繼續開會,我們請王洪威委員上台諮詢。"},{"start":10468.048,"end":10468.248,"text":"主席"},{"start":10484.757,"end":10494.55,"text":"這次美國總統大選之後其實世界各國都在為川普上台來做準備因為川普上台之後其實對全世界的經濟都會造成引力的衝擊"},{"start":10498.815,"end":10500.397,"text":"尤其針對台灣的部分川普說要付保護費可是我們現在所理解的所謂的保護費並不僅僅止於軍事的部分甚至在一些經貿部分還有採購的部分"},{"start":10514.654,"end":10531.002,"text":"其實世界各國都有一些準備那我要直接問次長的事央行在前幾天做了一個建議因為我們也被美國再度的列為匯率操縱國所以央行在建議說台灣可以擴大採購美國的石油"},{"start":10536.425,"end":10555.659,"text":"那麼這個可以看到包含在韓國也表示說可能擴大對美國採購石油跟天然氣那麼歐洲美國是直接點名歐洲應該跟美國採購更多的天然氣那所以在這邊我想請教一下針對中央銀行的建議台灣可以擴大採購美國石油請問一下經濟部贊成嗎那會付諸具體的行動嗎"},{"start":10564.161,"end":10581.426,"text":"外委員目前我們採購的進口石油美國的比例大概接近30%那第二大來源天然氣美國的比例大概10%左右大概是第三大來源那經濟部的立場在商業條件可行的情況下我們當然會來考慮"},{"start":10582.694,"end":10608.831,"text":"所以可以考慮增加對能源方面的採購對不對好那但是呢這個問題我也同樣問過中央銀行就是事實上比如說像天然氣我們主要的是來自於亞洲嘛也是基於這個價格啦或者是有一些外交上的考量那如果因為不管是天然氣也好或者石油也好其實呢這個船運的時間越長事實上它的成本會越高"},{"start":10609.551,"end":10620.925,"text":"那所以他有一種可能就是我增加對美國的採購因為美國離我們比較遠那麼會使得我們的能源價格成本因此而墊高有沒有這樣的可能的顧忌跟考量"},{"start":10622.061,"end":10650.195,"text":"所以我剛剛有先報告就是說當然從能源安全的角度不管價格多少我們一定要分散來源這是第一個條件第一個條件我們採購的時候也要看商業條件合理我們會來考慮那麼商業條件有很多複雜的做法比方說它是長約還是中程還是短約或者現貨市場都不一樣這個是可以搭配但是我們就要做一個比較合理的商業模式那我們就會考慮來採購所以未來提高對美國的"},{"start":10651.355,"end":10651.395,"text":"我們會評估"},{"start":10669.955,"end":10687.69,"text":"因為如果你對美國石油採購為了要付保護費然後使得我們的石油的成本提高或者為了要付保護費我們的天然氣成本提高就直接我們的電價就會上漲所以它必須基於在一個油電價格穩定不會上漲的狀況才可以另外請教次長21世紀台美貿易倡議首批協定請問生效了嗎簽訂是簽訂但是生效了嗎"},{"start":10699.319,"end":10726.429,"text":"美國方面的程序好像還沒有完成還沒有完成主要是國會還沒有通過對不對?國會他的程序是總統要certify要先認證說我方已經完全執行了然後他再提交跟國會報告好那我想請問現在正值新舊總統政權交接那麼因為我們事實上在去年就已經完成簽訂對不對?有簽署但是始終因為沒有生效就是因為美國國會沒有通過"},{"start":10727.91,"end":10751.206,"text":"那這樣子的一個政權交替的過程會不會使得我們這個首批協定的生效出現變數我們覺得這個協定基本上當時是美國國會兩黨的共識來推動的在目前看起來應該是美國國會程序比較慢這個他對世界各國的例子都是這個樣子"},{"start":10751.966,"end":10779.093,"text":"所以它有沒有可能發生嘛最後政權替換了這個可能性我們來觀察但是我現在沒有辦法所以要觀察因為不要等於白談了另外我還是關心的是就是事實上我們跟美國一直在有這個貿易談判而美國一直在其實一直在點名的就是我們對於包含對於美豬包含對於美牛的相關的禁令那所以昨天我也問了這個院長和部長"},{"start":10781.954,"end":10798.714,"text":"那麼我想請問一下次長可能會更清楚一點我們到目前為止跟美國談判裡面是不是有觸及或者是答應美國牛絞肉的進口或者是還有包括對美國豬肾的它的來氣的提供"},{"start":10800.182,"end":10824.723,"text":"報告委員這個部分我個人這邊沒有訊息你這邊完全沒有訊息因為談判不是在經濟部來主導所以部分我這邊沒有訊息對啊很可惜啊今天那個我本來問這個經貿辦公室今天沒有人來但是我在這邊還是因為我們這都有記錄還是有一點就是我們必須要在食安的部分一定要把關因為美國是一直對美牛美豬啊對我們很不爽啊"},{"start":10824.923,"end":10838.16,"text":"希望這個讓我們開放而我也相信川普上來之後這個壓力只會增加不會減少好那還剩下一點點時間對不起時間暫停一下我請一下我們的外交部次長田次長"},{"start":10848.428,"end":10862.574,"text":"市長好請問一下現在我們的部長人在立陶宛嗎?是的在立陶宛他有沒有可能發生一個狀況他現在帶團出去然後呢立陶宛改變就是我們台灣辦事處的名稱"},{"start":10865.163,"end":10890.971,"text":"這個案子其實在醞釀一段時間了哪一個案子你說改變名稱這個案子嗎那麼當時成立這個是雙方政府經過一些協商所造出來的結果那麼他要改的話我們也不讓他片面有機會去改我們要堅持我們的立場可是如果人家要改呢就像人家南非要讓我們辦事處簽出首都啊"},{"start":10893.314,"end":10914.182,"text":"南非的案子我們並沒有屈服目前還在談我們目前的態度是這樣子那如果人家要改呢那麼我們要經過適當的方式來協商而且我們也要透過一些理念相近的國家與我們支持"},{"start":10914.881,"end":10931.194,"text":"所以這個部分我們會力爭到底我要講的是其實剛才馬文俊委員也特別提到我們今天部長去訪問立陶宛我很怕我們面臨到一個非常尷尬的局面我們的部長堂堂部長在立陶宛人家立陶宛要求我們要把台灣辦事處的名稱給取消掉我曾經問過當時吳釗燮擔任外交部長我說如果改變我們的台灣辦事處名稱他要不要負責他願意負責下台負責"},{"start":10944.525,"end":10946.027,"text":"現在他到了國安會,如果部長都到立陶宛,再度的跟立陶宛示好,還把所謂的無人機國家隊也送過去了,我們半導體技術也送了,投資也送了"},{"start":10960.906,"end":10977.64,"text":"萊姆酒也喝了 通通都喝了 結果現在來吃我們豆腐 說台灣辦事處要改變我們當然 贊成我們外交部的態度 但是一旦改變的話那我當然在這邊講 一定要有人負政治責任"},{"start":10978.3,"end":10979.84,"text":"接下來我們請賴司法委員上台諮詢"},{"start":11014.113,"end":11015.634,"text":"台美貿易順差多少?"},{"start":11035.126,"end":11053.244,"text":"今年大概五百多億五百多億原來你們公布有八百億五百多億那現在大家都在擔心的關心的川普上台以後關稅全球關稅勢必提升這句話對吧他在競選的時候是這樣講是不是一定提升提升多少不知道"},{"start":11060.824,"end":11064.705,"text":"所以我們的貿易順差會減少嗎?你們評估報沒有?中共敏感信不信沒有?如果對我們的電子產品全部恢復課10%有影響嗎?"},{"start":11084.127,"end":11110.463,"text":"如果照他所競選的時候所講的對全世界都課徵百分之十到二十的這個關稅而且對中國的產品課徵百分之六十的關稅那這樣的話我們有可能對美的出口有可能在電子產品部分有可能會增加因為美國有那樣的需求可是你不要忘了喔大陸去美國的前十名六名是台商喔台商影響喔是是是"},{"start":11115.376,"end":11132.225,"text":"所以你的意思是美國關稅課越高,我們越好,轉單效果,是這樣子嗎?不是不是,報告委員,我剛剛不是這個意思,我的意思是說美國的關稅我們要非常看他怎麼實際上執行來做整密的評估那就問你了,美國關稅他一定增加嘛,對不對,市長也對嘛,市長也這樣子,挺市長這樣認為嘛"},{"start":11140.65,"end":11147.556,"text":"目前的跡象看起來他不會食言,他講的競選,但是增加多少我們先講一下增加多少不知道,填市場有沒有感覺或者你的guts feeling,起碼5%以上,會不會,接近10%,可能不到10%"},{"start":11159.813,"end":11178.212,"text":"當然我們也希望這個稅的增加不要傷害到產業的結構跟這個貿易的往來啦但是這個可能目前我們沒有辦法去做決定請教陳次長他關稅提高對我們是利多還是利空"},{"start":11180.661,"end":11193.256,"text":"整體來講美國提高關稅當然是對全世界的貿易都比較不好啦我們並不支持這樣的做法我們希望維持自由貿易你這個講話跟國部長不一樣喔國部長我霸氣了國資委你們老闆啊本事我說沒差啦"},{"start":11199.302,"end":11208.027,"text":"因為可以吸收啊!我們這個買賣可以吸收啊!他以為它是市場市場所以我剛剛跟委員報告是說因為我們認為美國的需求還是存在所以反而...田市長你講一下吧!我想田市長這麼有經驗的都沒有影響嗎?怕是要被人選結果所有的相關的經濟方面的專家都這樣"},{"start":11225.737,"end":11228.699,"text":"對亞洲來講重創台灣是被重創的田市長這句話對吧我前後我要先看一下那篇報告齁你剛剛寫的好幾份報告包括經濟學人這麼有名的對不對包括這個荊州刊包括其他的都這樣子分析阿亞洲受害最深你看喔他是起來齁"},{"start":11252.884,"end":11262.551,"text":"全球GDP會受影響美國同盤會增加1.8%美國GDP會降1%它都是建構在美國大幅提高關稅然後大陸的GDP會降1%左右大概0.7%到1.6%最大的輸家墨西哥、中國大陸跟歐盟這句話請問田市長對嗎?"},{"start":11282.25,"end":11307.5,"text":"經濟學人講的報委員這些問題很難在這裡就跟您報告是或不是其實有危機也有轉機在某種程度來說尤其對台灣來講台灣這些高科技可能在這一批關稅上會有某種程度的轉機市長你同意川普講的"},{"start":11309.1,"end":11316.809,"text":"講MEGA或者MACA這個讓美國再次偉大就是以美國的主體當作生意所以你賺到多少錢他幫你賺回來啊我一開始問你說他我們賺到500億美金他想辦法幫你賺回來啊這才是生意人啊都跟你賺了不行啊我這樣講我對吧"},{"start":11328.69,"end":11339.298,"text":"這個大概是一面的做法一個國家要偉大的話他還需要其他的同盟國家一起協力對啊他說你賺我這麼多錢生力人來講生力人就是你不能佔我便宜啊你不能賺我這麼多錢啊所以你要給我買啊買能源啊買武器啊拼命給我買啊這大家可以預估的吧這樣推論對嗎請問市長對嗎田市長"},{"start":11359.256,"end":11367.806,"text":"至於能源問題,剛才我想陳次長已經說明了,那麼武器方面呢,我想可能由國防部來做比較...來,我請教陳次長啊,我們現在天然氣最大的進口國是哪個國家?應該是卡達卡達,過去我們跟俄羅斯買很多,現在還沒跟俄羅斯買"},{"start":11379.351,"end":11406.952,"text":"報告委員,跟俄羅斯的進口是因為我們在日本這個Kuya島這邊有一個投資啊那個是一個三國的企業的合資所以是因為合資的關係進口過來並不是我們直接跟俄羅斯買的我知道,但所以實際上還是在有跟俄羅斯買石油嘛講整包,講了半天說要制裁人家結果都沒有啊因為現實的問題我們對俄羅斯是出口管制我們沒有制裁的法律啦"},{"start":11407.577,"end":11422.383,"text":"王美華當部長接受我的質詢講那時候剛二五戰爭沒多久但是三個月內不可能一滴這個天然氣從俄羅斯來我們是因為我們投資方的關係這是一個合約的問題我請教田次長看第二個page川普上任以後CPTPP對我們來講更加辛苦困難吧是不是"},{"start":11435.064,"end":11457.555,"text":"以他過去沒有參加巴黎協定的這個過去的記錄來說他可能對氣候變遷他個人認為是一個這個議題對他來講並不是他最好的理由所以我講的都對嘛他會繼續的不理全球氣候變遷行動然後CPTPP我們更加沒有希望"},{"start":11458.135,"end":11462.778,"text":"抱歉,你剛剛講我是氣候變形,CPTPP兩個都有,兩個都有CPTPP美國一開始就退出來,才會變CPTPP我知道,所以你們外交部都畫胡龍蘭老百姓說吃美牛吃美豬可以加入CPTPP你們次長講的,那個帥哥叫什麼名字來著?姓李的,不知道掉到哪裡去了李淳"},{"start":11485.794,"end":11489.655,"text":"李純講的 公開講 公投的時候說我們吃美豬可以加入CPTPP你Google一下 青菜公共咧 都這樣子服弄大家結果現在吃了 也沒加入啊 因為說美國雖然他不是CPTPP成年國 他會幫助我們 對不對他是美國爸爸 會幫助我們 是不是 結果沒有啊 更加沒有希望啊"},{"start":11511.462,"end":11514.848,"text":"你現在來看的話這個CPTPP都知道共識絕啊市長 你要不要講一點話對CPTPP講一下讓我們有點希望好嗎"},{"start":11523.925,"end":11531.848,"text":"我覺得你剛剛提的共識決其實共識決只是三個之一啦它奧克蘭這個三個原則嘛高標準能夠履行它貿易的承諾第三是共識決那麼台灣其實這三項都已經充分的達到了你知道進度嗎跟我們同一時間申請的英國已經加入了台灣到現在連工作小組都沒有這就是現況"},{"start":11554.059,"end":11556.022,"text":"我們的外交單位、經貿談判處還不是普通的捧場啊英國跟我們一起加入了我們到現在連工作小組都沒有你都不理你啊最後一個小問題我問完你就走"},{"start":11568.069,"end":11584.348,"text":"川普上來是不是會興起全世界保護主義各國的興起?你課我關稅,我也課你關稅啊!大陸難道就沒有籌碼嗎?你課他關稅幾十趴,大陸課你美國商品的關稅,大家都來課關稅,有嗎?有可能嗎?有沒有可能?"},{"start":11590.517,"end":11616.888,"text":"這個我想要等他真正開始以後才會形成這種風氣那麼現在他還沒有就任當然他說了很多東西他履行他競選的諾言那麼各國也都在準備中因為他孤立主義所謂的爆章砸他孤立主義所以各國可能也會漸漸不要問喔 大家現在只有談關稅喔還有一個會員律喔"},{"start":11620.187,"end":11620.508,"text":"謝謝賴市保委員"},{"start":11647.867,"end":11652.27,"text":"次長請回接下來我們請侯孟楷委員上台質詢主席謝謝麻煩要請我們田次長跟經濟部陳次長請田次長和陳次長"},{"start":11674.766,"end":11694.956,"text":"兩位次長好我想不是部長來因為你們兩位都是長期的事務官所以某程度上我反而覺得是說可以更講一些專業的判斷而不要受政治立場或者是講這種空話所以本席也希望是說能夠救教因為"},{"start":11696.076,"end":11713.729,"text":"我們今天召委提的這個議題其實是非常重要美國大選已經兩個禮拜了那結果完之後後續台灣跟美國的貿易或是相關的合作的部分其實都很受對沒錯新任的川普總統要上任的影響所以我先提醒"},{"start":11714.97,"end":11735.443,"text":"先不要我們官方這邊講是說不知道川普總統他選舉的承諾到底會不會兌現或說未來會不會推動我覺得這不是我們官方應該要去評論我們應該都要以人家總統候選人他競選時候的政見或想法就要以這樣的方向去準備"},{"start":11736.792,"end":11756.765,"text":"人家 你 因為你剛這樣子的一個回答進碰的程度上你好像在講人家是所謂的競選支票不一定兌現啊但是 名嘴可以這樣子說我們官方立場不能有這樣的一個態度我覺得這第一個本席要很嚴正的一個先提醒那再來第二個部分"},{"start":11758.479,"end":11777.912,"text":"川普總統當選人他在過去競選期間就已經講了他就說科增關稅把關稅調高晶片商會自己前來設廠美國一毛錢可能都不用花他甚至有點名到說台灣把美國95%的晶片市場都搶走了有注意到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":11779.704,"end":11807.297,"text":"好 那如果說假設如同剛剛我們好幾位委員都在強調的就是說 如果未來美國真的上川普真的上任之後他要調高這個相關的關稅那會不會勢必要又希望是說連帶的把這一些上中下游廠商都集中到美國生產因為他美國再次偉大很重要的核心價值就是他們要恢復製造業嘛那這樣會不會擔心我們包括台積電或是相關我們的這些高科技晶片廠"},{"start":11808.317,"end":11834.107,"text":"有可能到美國設廠甚至把我們更核心的技術也請往美國這個機率有多大?有沒有評估過?報告委員對外投資台灣最近幾年來因為委員剛說要做一些比較事務性的報告我報告一下我們最近幾年來台灣每年對外投資大概200億美金左右表示我們台商已經在做全球佈局因為台灣的"},{"start":11836.546,"end":11861.541,"text":"經濟、工業和科技的發展已經足以到全球去佈局來延伸我們的實力以及跟當地市場和其他貿易夥伴之間加深的合作這第一點第二個,台灣的產業特性跟日韓不一樣日韓他是集團他整個過去不管是三重或是LG等等他都是上中下游一起去台灣的產業特性是中小企業組成的螞蟻從兵"},{"start":11862.822,"end":11888.167,"text":"所以我們去的時候當台積電去必然它的供應鏈要過去服務它這樣才能夠維持我們的競爭力而不是扶植當地的供應鏈而已當然我們也希望跟當地供應鏈合作那麼這是一個彼此互惠互烈作所以會不會過去當然為了維持我們的實力的成長這個合作是有必要的因為我們的產業形態跟日韓不同第三點"},{"start":11889.367,"end":11916.366,"text":"至於科技方面的外流的話我們有一個投資審查的機制所以任何對外投資都要經過經濟部跟各部會、跨部會的一個審查像比方說台積電去美國的投資雖然是相當先進的晶片但是我們在審查過程中很整密地做了評估它的在美國的投資計畫是2028年量產在台灣是2025年量產在美國目前兩個場在台灣目前大概十個場"},{"start":11918.388,"end":11942.705,"text":"臺灣在台積電全球的晶片大概200萬片一個月但是美國那個大概是2萬片等等這個數字我回去要確認不過我們是經過一個評估要確保臺灣的國家利益、經濟實力和科技實力為前提的情況下來協助我們的供應鏈跟我們的廠商對外投資市長你講到重點重點就在於是說我們一直擔心跟"},{"start":11943.425,"end":11963.506,"text":"害怕或者是說我們也認為為什麼過去一直講台積電叫護國神山就是台積電的存在讓很多人會認為是說我們台灣是相對安全可是從過去這兩三年裡面其實開始有人在炒作說如果說台積電沒有在台灣的話可能台灣的處境就會相對危險"},{"start":11964.767,"end":11980.901,"text":"那再來是你剛剛有提到就是說我剛剛讓你完整的敘述就代表是說你現在講到的是台積電現在生產多數都還是在台灣技術都還在台灣而且跟美國相差來講差不多有3年左右的時間對不對一個2005一個2025一個2028嘛"},{"start":11984.804,"end":12000.99,"text":"那但是現在美國的政權輪替政黨交替了那我們未來因應這1月20號之後的狀況我們有沒有做過評估或是說如果說1月20號真的共和黨川普上任之後他也要求說我要改變遊戲規則增加成本你的進口關稅提高那還有你的技術"},{"start":12008.57,"end":12020.988,"text":"那時候我們投審會一個投審會有辦法阻擋或是抗拒美國政府的力量嗎?除了投審會以外我們還有沒有什麼樣的機制作為是能夠"},{"start":12022.455,"end":12049.65,"text":"去阻擋或說能夠抗拒這樣力量的報告委員第一個我們內部當然有做準備跟評估第二個投審會是一個跨部會的機制他是每一個都向到自己的首長他並不是就這個會議來決定各個部會有各司其職來做經濟的評估、安全的評估、產業的評估、國際關係的評估外交部的次長也是投審會的成員所以外交部次長單位到外交部而且整個國安體系都會做評估第三個我跟委員報告"},{"start":12050.37,"end":12071.756,"text":"因為我們也希望台積電的投資能夠成功而且國際局勢瞬息萬變我們會隨時滾動性來檢討他的投資計畫審查如何對台灣最為有利這個是最高原則好啦 市長本席提出來啦這一個問題可能是賴總統才有辦法去回答但是本席先提出來是我們先看到問題了"},{"start":12073.237,"end":12089.218,"text":"我們當然都希望臺積電的投資成功但是怎麼樣能夠把核心技術跟流台灣在其他地方的投資成功這個是關鍵好不好那個田次長一個部分請教因為我們有看到說海地我們的友邦"},{"start":12091.702,"end":12116.692,"text":"這幾天新聞從今年整個狀況及海地我們的友邦其實不是太好的那在5月10號的時候就舊政府還是吳釗燮部長的時候他曾經被問到說有兩個邦交國長期是有隱憂的他沒有點名哪兩個邦交國但之後媒體去報導他說有推敲有可能他講的是海地跟瓜地馬拉這個我必須要先說明清楚"},{"start":12117.672,"end":12129.086,"text":"吳部長只有講兩個邦交國長期隱憂他是擔心有可能有斷交的風險但是沒有講哪兩個邦交國可是現在我們看到是說海地他的首都太子港"},{"start":12130.231,"end":12149.862,"text":"據外媒報導,被80%幫派份子把持,並且造成說有2萬多人顛沛流離是居無定所,也非常的辛苦。那我想請教一下,到目前為止,海地政府有沒有對於我們的外交部有提出什麼樣還有需求?"},{"start":12150.79,"end":12154.312,"text":"目前我們大使館人員安全是沒有問題的那我們那邊的僑民或是僑胞"},{"start":12170.387,"end":12191.321,"text":"的安全狀況也是有掌握也可以掌握那對於他們政府現在動盪當然因為是我們的友邦但有沒有會在這個時候提出超出預期或是不合理的要求沒有到目前為止是沒有的那我們會不會因應譬如說要維持友邦而反而會有一些狀況產生"},{"start":12194.211,"end":12220.571,"text":"不會在海地目前狀況我覺得他只是怎麼樣把內部的次序做好我們沒有感受到或者沒有那個質詢雙邊的邦交會問題好我希望邦交股票再有任何的散失但是也請注意關心因為在這個議題上面從上一任部長到現在好像比較少提及但是本期還是善業提醒好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":12223.403,"end":12247.259,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員 次長請回鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在 邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在 林思敏 林思敏 林思敏委員不在我們請楊瓊英委員上台質詢"},{"start":12254.498,"end":12256.799,"text":"臺灣民意基金會在昨天公布了最新的全國性民調他探討出民眾對於美國"},{"start":12282.832,"end":12297.105,"text":"新當選的總統川普先生的態度跟當選後臺美關係的看法我想這是全國以及全世界大家都非常關注以及美軍協防臺灣的信心就針對這樣子來做調查的結果顯示65.3%"},{"start":12305.151,"end":12319.357,"text":"臺灣民眾並不擔心川普當選後的臺美關係但是也有57.2的民眾他是不相信川普政府會在中國侵台的時候他會派兵協防臺灣"},{"start":12320.797,"end":12345.085,"text":"也有另外44.2的民眾不樂見川普來當選47.6的民眾不欣賞川普台灣人對於川普總統曾經有很好感但是也因為近期他給世界有一個不可預測的感覺讓不少人都不敢有過度的期待"},{"start":12345.885,"end":12353.713,"text":"市長你頻頻點頭,也講到精髓,也就是說川普這一次的選舉針對於台灣,經濟部在這邊,台灣我們這個很重要的半導體產業跟我們的防務議題的發言,讓很多的台灣人感到不可預測的一個特質感跟擔憂"},{"start":12369.848,"end":12371.909,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我首先要請教兩位面對國內民眾的憂心我們要如何的來加強臺美關係的發展尤其他在選舉的這個期間他特別提到臺灣應該要交保護會"},{"start":12387.338,"end":12402.345,"text":"這樣子的言論,那我們政府要怎麼去因應呢?如果說我們只花大錢來買軍購,那就可以換來很穩定的這個台美關係嗎?田上我敬佩你,你馬上給我搖頭,請做回答。"},{"start":12404.786,"end":12422.133,"text":"委員你可能會錯我的意了不過我必須說這些民眾的你不是搖頭還是你贊同你會錯意是什麼意思這是民調本席所說民調的背景給你你搖搖頭我以為你 對不對我的一個習慣會頭受不了控制你說什麼"},{"start":12428.669,"end":12450.994,"text":"我說我的頭受不了我的控制,有的時候會動一下,這點請您見諒。你把你的引內告訴給世界大...請說明,針對議題。我們必須尊重、要了解我們民眾對於川普上來、台美的關係,怎麼樣去發展。"},{"start":12451.434,"end":12476.313,"text":"所以本期告訴你基金會所公布的最新民調我們會去審慎的去了解民眾他們想的是什麼但是呢從另外一個角度來看我們也必須告訴民眾臺美的關係立這麼多年以來雙邊的關係是相當相當的穩固我們不會因為總統的變的話發生巨大的變化"},{"start":12478.575,"end":12497.567,"text":"其實兩黨跟我們的關係都非常好臺美關係剛剛也說了一個民調出來並不擔心65點這個3那表示跟你的論點是一樣但是我沒有看到這些言論這些言論成為保護會的那你的因應呢"},{"start":12499.043,"end":12522.787,"text":"台灣的價值對美國價值美國要再次偉大其實他需要很多盟邦一起來做這個事情那台灣的價值呢在我們在太平洋這一塊維護了民主人權也是美國所要求的普世價值這一方面我們是有貢獻的所以不能專門說要保護費這個詞我覺得"},{"start":12527.108,"end":12553.097,"text":"我非常贊同你所說的也就是川普在競爭在競選的時候他提到台灣應該要交保護會這一類的這一類的言論那請教田次你認為這個言論是不對的是不認同的是不可能的還是怎麼樣呢這個是他競選上面講的語言大家能夠聽得懂大家能夠聽得懂未來在明年一月份他上任會不會如此作為"},{"start":12554.264,"end":12575.783,"text":"但是我們也要跟美國參眾兩院也好美國的民眾也好說台灣在這裡所扮演的價值我方當然要講我方的立場我們的價值全世界要再次偉大沒有台灣是不行的我要這麼說確實但是我們只有講我們自己好別人怎麼做他已經言論出來我們有沒有應對"},{"start":12576.84,"end":12604.553,"text":"我們會謹慎的去了解他將來怎麼做請教,如果在1月份之後他上任他仍舊要台灣交保護費你會認同嗎?你會交嗎?那看看他保護費的額度是多少哇,你講真心話了因為在我們的預算書裡頭我有看到內容等到我們在整預算的時候再來做討論我希望審慎之以台灣人民安全最重要的為最高原則"},{"start":12606.884,"end":12623.096,"text":"請教市長,我剛才特別說了在我們整個半導體方面以及防護的這個議題方面呢那他也在選舉的時候也提出那你認為你認為在他上任之後民眾有所憂心那你認為在他上任之後我方怎麼應對"},{"start":12625.341,"end":12645.009,"text":"如果單純針對半導體我們先講事實事實就是台灣的半導體是他的70%的客戶是美系客戶而且呢我們跟美國的不管是設備製造商或者IC的設計商還有他的這個應用部分呢我們是緊密結合在合作這是個現實"},{"start":12646.149,"end":12664.356,"text":"是一個事實不是現實在這個事實的前提下川普總統的政見要落實下來的話一定要跟台灣合作所以在經濟部立場我們是會支持我們的半導體產業跟美國進一步緊密合作而且這個事實對台美當中都有益"},{"start":12667.577,"end":12690.366,"text":"但是這個不可預測,就像川普重返這個白宮﹖很多人說﹖他曾經自己說﹖他的字典裡頭最美的詞就是關稅﹖這個關稅對於我們﹖對於我們來講﹖我們是一個出口導向的國家﹖在這樣的情況之下我們的衝擊會怎麼樣﹖他主張全面性的保護主義壁壘"},{"start":12691.326,"end":12707.074,"text":"那對所有的進口呢﹐亞太地區呢﹐他準備10到20%﹐這是他之前的言論﹐當然在他上任之後﹐他會不會這麼做﹐本是認為我們政府應該聽到這樣子的言論﹐我們應該有因應的方向"},{"start":12707.634,"end":12722.328,"text":"是,鮑威爾,我們做最壞的打算,最嚴謹的準備,如果它對全世界都科百分之十到二十的話,不同的產業,不同的公司會有不同的衝擊,或有的時候是機會跟利益,例如轉單效益,也有可能是衝擊。"},{"start":12723.449,"end":12742.623,"text":"這個部分必須各個公司不同但是就經濟部的立場來講的話我們的準備因應方向就是我們會協助我們的台商在海外的佈局在生產基地方面能夠避險尤其在中國大陸的投資怎麼樣把它引導出來到新南向國家這也是一個避險的做法"},{"start":12743.625,"end":12770.168,"text":"這個似乎是所有的廠商大家都已經超前在部署但是我仍舊希望聽到我們的政府你有所作為你現在目前所說的都是親手自己趕快去努力的一個方向所以我告訴你現在台美的經貿合作那大家都是非常的緊密在合作尤其我們上代協商現在還在進行協商的也就是台美貿易倡議的第二階段"},{"start":12770.828,"end":12791.38,"text":"本席認為想請教我們的政府目前正在談判協商會不會有所變化會不會有所依照你們目前所掌控的這個資料會不會請知會不會在我們的臺美貿易倡議的第二階段是不是會面臨更多的變數請教"},{"start":12795.877,"end":12823.244,"text":"這個跟委員報告第一個我這邊沒有完整的訊息因為主政單位是行政院經貿處辦辦公室第二個站在經濟部的立場經貿處辦辦公室你經濟部也是其中一個啊是是是對不對怎麼可以如此推本期最不希望聽到我們的行政部門你今天代表到立法院來就是你的課題啊怎麼會說這是誰的呢政府是一致的你也是經貿辦公室當中經濟部絕對是站非常重要的一個角色啊怎麼可以如此的推呢"},{"start":12823.604,"end":12837.915,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告所以這個是你們每天在做的啊是 沒有完整的訊息但是我要下面接著要講經濟部的立場我們是希望能夠繼續進行我們也跟美方透過各個管道我們希望要繼續進行這也是我們希望嘛那所以本席針對本席的提問也就是說目前正在談判正在協商這個就是機會跟剛剛您說的這個就是機會"},{"start":12847.162,"end":12863.059,"text":"那我們要嚴正以待去看會不會有更多的變相會不會有更多的變相這個時間點這兩三個月來講對我們台灣對全世界來講大家都繃緊了神經內是不是啊大家都是拭目以待而且是這個"},{"start":12866.081,"end":12883.61,"text":"這個基礎就是我們的機會而且現在正在創意正在協商所以在這樣的情況之下本席是希望我本席非常希望我們台灣是這麼好的國家而且每一個人民這麼努力尤其我們的廠商是這麼努力"},{"start":12885.571,"end":12885.751,"text":"委員的問題是說"},{"start":12907.722,"end":12910.503,"text":"在我們的詮釋裡面所謂保護費就是加強合作啦雙方來加強合作啦那麼要讓利的話要看美方提的條件是什麼目前情況不明但是我們就是先降低風險"},{"start":12937.189,"end":12955.088,"text":"還有強化連結,包括對美國、對歐洲、對新南向國家……市長,你這樣講就對了。你們不用怕回答,因為這個階段是大家共同在討論。你應該是,其實我相信你最後的回答,也就是你心裡的話,其實大家都緊張。"},{"start":12956.329,"end":12956.769,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瑜委員次長請回"},{"start":12983.158,"end":12990.201,"text":"蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在接下來我們請葉元之委員上台質詢馬上請外交部政務次長"},{"start":13012.539,"end":13012.804,"text":"請填次長"},{"start":13019.663,"end":13046.457,"text":"委員好 這樣好 當然我們都不希望對岸在國際上面打壓我們的外交空間但是我覺得我們外交部、我們政府也不能夠事事都在掩飾因為只有面對真相、面對事實才能夠對症下藥找到我們的外交空間維持兩岸和平那我想請教一下外交部對於新加坡公開講說確實他們有主張反對台灣台獨這個事情外交部現在看法是怎樣"},{"start":13049.206,"end":13076.861,"text":"我們對這個案子我們做一個詳細的比較中國所發出來的訊息是說新加坡是支持一個中國的原則那麼我們為了這個我們跟新加坡去了解新加坡說他們是支持一個中國的政策這兩個有明顯的不同所以沒有講到黃巡才反對台獨這件事情"},{"start":13078.42,"end":13100.802,"text":"總統今天媒體都是這樣報導啊他是反對台獨對嘛所以意思是什麼你們非常急著不是 市長等一下等一下你們非常急著要去幫人家澄清嘛所以讓人家公開的再一次的呼籲反對台獨這件事情我不太知道說外交部為什麼要這麼急著做這件事情啦你們的動機是什麼"},{"start":13101.683,"end":13124.177,"text":"我們不要澄清這個事情今天媒體都是說外交部被打臉我們是找出來中國用各種的方法把不當的言詞塞在別人的嘴巴裡實際上我今天看媒體的報導是講說新加坡再次表示說反對台獨外交部也理解"},{"start":13125.231,"end":13143.724,"text":"所以這事情已經被操作成一個負面的事情了那外交部你們在做這種事情有這麼粗糙喔我以為外交部的人員都經歷了很豐厚的外交訓練啊怎麼會這麼粗糙讓這樣的話題本來一天就過去了然後可以最後好像搞得裡外不是人喔"},{"start":13144.344,"end":13164.001,"text":"然後再來習近平到底在拜習會的時候有沒有提到賴清德這三個字我們的政府高層都說沒有嘛我們的國安局當時國安局局長講說他就比對了白宮的新聞稿說完全沒有講到賴清德我問一下次長請問一下白宮的新聞稿是逐字稿嗎是拜習會的逐字稿嗎"},{"start":13165.063,"end":13180.358,"text":"我們對這個國安單位所提出來的解釋請問一下我再問你嘛白宮的新聞稿是不是拜習會談話的逐字稿是不是是新聞稿還是逐字稿你們外交部都不會去看人家的新聞稿"},{"start":13183.458,"end":13199.774,"text":"兩邊在會後發的新聞聲明我們都有看我的問題很簡單請問一下白宮的新聞稿是不是拜習會的逐字稿並不是逐字稿嘛那請教一下所以我們的國安局長怎麼可以根據不是逐字稿的新聞稿因為新聞稿只有載入他們講話的部分嘛"},{"start":13201.255,"end":13227.851,"text":"就可以直接去講說習近平在拜習會就是沒有談到賴清德為什麼可以這樣推論呢這是因為過去這一段時間我們看到兩邊對話之後發出來的雙方發出來的新聞稿對嘛但是不是逐字稿嘛就像我們今天我們兩個對話逐字可能最後發個新聞稿可是我們不會把我們所有的對話發出去嘛所以我們怎麼可以講說新聞稿沒看到就一定沒有哇賽我們的外交體系國安體系邏輯是這樣喔"},{"start":13229.992,"end":13259.1,"text":"新聞稿可以把它當組織稿所以所以到底市長所以習近平到底有沒有講到賴清德總統有沒有到底有沒有各方面的查證是沒有的沒有齁那因為所以你們講說因為那個是大陸官媒的報導嘛這又在搞認知作戰嘛齁那我給大家看一下齁這是紐約時報啦前天的報導啦裡面就有講啊你可以看一下啊它裡面就有提到啊"},{"start":13260.285,"end":13271.632,"text":"他說習近平特別講說美國如果要維持地區和平的話就必須要公開反對台獨他也罕見的提到台灣總統賴清德這紐約時報的報導所以這紐約時報被認知作戰了市長這是他跟習近平的談話嗎這紐約時報的報導在講拜習會的啊罕見的提到賴清德不然習近平是跟誰談話"},{"start":13294.01,"end":13310.081,"text":"我覺得如果我們的外交單位我們不是說習近平他提到賴清德是我們支持他這樣的 不是而是說如果我們今天事實都要掩蓋的話我們怎麼對症下藥啊而且我真的不太懂你們那麼在意這個事情幹什麼習近平提到賴清德總統然後說賴清德的態度那你就反駁他就好啦"},{"start":13316.892,"end":13341.053,"text":"反駁習近平啊他說不是我們現在賴清德總統已經主張中華民國113年了他已經是中華民國派了習近平不要亂講話反駁他就好了嘛你去講說他沒說幹嘛你又不是他所以你們然後就把他搞成是認知作戰我真不懂欸這樣的一個操作的用意意義在哪裡你看美國的報導就有嘛你一直去否認這個事情"},{"start":13342.925,"end":13353.58,"text":"我們是要凸顯你務實一點好不好務實一點啦每天在那邊講認知作戰、認知作戰台灣人民都聽到都沒有都覺得到底在幹什麼啊再請教一下"},{"start":13357.792,"end":13376.228,"text":"昨天我們的行政院長那個卓榮泰講說不能講以美論因為所謂的理念相近的國家要互相信賴沒有人要說以美論但是我們不能夠評估一下川普上任之後對台灣可能造成衝擊嗎這算不算以美論這是不是以美論市長你覺得是以美論嗎"},{"start":13378.304,"end":13394.932,"text":"這個是很 評估嘛 評估嘛 對嘛 所以為什麼把所有的評估都要把它打成是以美論呢 我也不懂啊 現在川普 我問一下次長 今天經濟部也有人來嘛 請教一下川普上任之後有沒有可能提高台灣的 台灣的關稅 有沒有可能 有沒有可能有沒有可能 外交部次長你可以回答啊 因為你們 你們對美 你們也有對美關係啊 你覺得有沒有可能"},{"start":13404.912,"end":13413.818,"text":"按照川普競選的承諾這個是有可能的有可能嘛那經濟部次長承諾多少承諾多少那你們覺得承諾多少"},{"start":13415.339,"end":13439.276,"text":"有沒有可能很高有沒有可能我跟委員報告一下如果關稅太高的他其實傷害了他本國的通貨膨脹也會發生所以這一點所以你覺得你的評估是不會很高我不是這樣講他如果調得太高他也會傷到自己是但是他還是會調高對我們也會有影響那這算不算以美論算不算市長覺得算不算以美論"},{"start":13444.895,"end":13461.692,"text":"我們只是很務實的討論國家未來可能遇到的困境嘛這算以美論嗎不是吧不是說只要討論美國對我們可能造成傷害都是以美論吧那請教一下我們台積電有沒有可能台積電A16技術製程會在美國有沒有可能你們有評估過嗎經營部"},{"start":13468.136,"end":13492.666,"text":"技術的問題我沒有辦法詳細回答你有評估過你們部長一天到晚講台積電現在美國說因為我們台積電在美國有66億美元的補助對吧你知道這是嗎是他們現在要求台積電A16技術製程要在美國啦你們知道這是嗎當時台積電去投資的時候是經過投審會審查我們有做過縝密的評估那所以你覺得這個東西沒有影響"},{"start":13494.126,"end":13509.974,"text":"他要量產要比台灣晚3年而且他研發中心在台灣所以我們認為台灣的技術會維持領先的地位所以次長你的評估是說雖然A16技術製程有可能會在美國但是因為我們會比他早量產3年所以不會受到影響"},{"start":13511.104,"end":13533.015,"text":"這是經濟部的評估嗎會正面的影響還會有正面的影響所以美國所以台積電最好那種高先進的製程就多去一點還會有正面的影響不是這第一個台積電的商業決策而且台積電做過台積電本身也做過整密的評估我們以台灣的利益為最高指導原則台積電做過評估為什麼張忠謀在2022年會說在美國投資是貴且浪費"},{"start":13535.989,"end":13559.574,"text":"張創辦人的解釋我沒有辦法替他回答你說台積電做過評估但他們創辦人公開講說在美投資貴且浪費有一個高盛大家知道嗎亞太地區首期經濟學家他說除了北京之外台灣、韓國、越南都可能會籠罩在美國提高我們關稅的陰影當中這是高盛講的"},{"start":13561.1,"end":13589.629,"text":"所以事實上就是會嘛事實上是全世界都會嘛所以要做好因應嘛不是說大家討論因應之道就是以美論嘛最後我問外交部次長一個問題請問一下現在慶賀團決定派誰代表了嗎還沒有請問一下四年前那時候是四年前八年前當時是什麼時間點會決定派誰你在外交部服務很長一段時間嘛沒關係我問一下四年前那時候是什麼決定的"},{"start":13592.084,"end":13620.023,"text":"八年前是什麼時候決定的?我要查一下這個是這個時間點決定的嗎?在籌備當中那現在目前可能人選有哪些?你們方向是什麼?現在不變透露那什麼時候會有答案?會比四年前慢嗎?會比八年前的人選慢嗎?我必須看我四年前八年前我們是什麼時間我沒有辦法馬上回答您這個問題再確認一下我沒有辦法馬上回答那會不會是立法院長?"},{"start":13621.192,"end":13623.874,"text":"不確定。不確定。不確定。好,謝謝。謝謝葉元之委員。次長請回。"},{"start":13636.141,"end":13663.546,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有王定宇委員、洪森漢委員、邱志偉委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供"},{"start":13665.106,"end":13683.849,"text":"委員令有約定期限者從期鎖定這裡做一個宣告有關外交部主管收支公開及機密部分預定於11月28日進行詢答12月3日下午5點前收案12月9日處理提案"},{"start":13684.929,"end":13709.374,"text":"我再重複一次有關外交部主管收支公開及機密部分預定於11月28號進行詢答12月3號下午5點前收案12月9號處理提案外交部收到整理提案後希望能夠把握時間跟提案委員做好溝通以利審查本日會議到此結束上會"},{"start":13717.645,"end":13725.187,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"16285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16285","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbbae2c6269a10f1bf4be335d15c1ead01b104c5adbfed68f739c84b58bcc5e37e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司。(詢答)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-20T08:31:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T13:30:00+08:00","duration":17906,"影片長度":"04:58:26","委員發言時間":"08:31:34 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台電公司肩負穩定全球電力供應之責以強化基礎運作運為如期如質完成基礎大修並精進風險控管並於再生能源佔比持續提高過程確保電力系統穩定。 令積極配合政府能源及淨零轉型政策"},{"start":1963.137,"end":1985.026,"text":"於供給面、電網面及需求面持續推動各項計畫在供給面進行多元能源開發並優先擴大再生能源發展除持續推動新增燃氣機組計畫114年度包括新建兩部機組大潭一部機組及台中一部機組將陸續上線至119年預計新增16部機組"},{"start":1990.208,"end":2008.499,"text":"總裝置容量達1244萬千瓦外亦以零碳為目標優先擴大自有再生能源開發114年包括自辦離岸風力二期工作及配合地熱發展規劃精進現有仁喆發電廠並加以擴廠更啟動與台中、谷關、新北"},{"start":2016.583,"end":2038.378,"text":"黃山等區域進行地熱探勘盤點全台地熱潛能區規劃引進多部國際生技機具加入探勘不論離岸風電或地熱項目皆採取多元模式全力投入開發以支持全國2026年再生能源發電占比至少20%電網面持續強化電網韌性"},{"start":2043.902,"end":2073.425,"text":"提升電網體質、改變公司以減少停電、快速復電、園區穩定供電、改善送電瓶頸、長期提升電網體質為目標以分散、強固及防衛等三大推動主軸持續推動強化電網韌性建設計畫並於117年優先完成關鍵區域以及與民生相關的關鍵工程,另外提升供電可靠度"},{"start":2074.992,"end":2094.213,"text":"針對人口成長、用電成長以及設備老化等指標綜合評估以風險程度盤點完成紅黃綠三區針對風險程度較高的區域及早投入資源以強化配電電系統改善此外推動45項再生能源"},{"start":2094.933,"end":2118.501,"text":"加強電力網工程包含離岸風電7站7線以及太陽光電9站10線可以有效增加再生能源並網量需求面經濟需求面管理並落實深度節能台電公司持續進行需要需求面管理措施配合再生能源發展調整電價的尖風尖離風時間同時位於"},{"start":2121.172,"end":2126.707,"text":"民間和用戶共同努力一體尖峰用電推出各項虛量反應"},{"start":2129.063,"end":2147.53,"text":"負載管理措施引導用戶調整用電令推動深度節能計劃113年已扮演46戶國公營、事業等大型醫院包括中油、中鋼、三總等用電大戶的節能診斷在所有先行市場域的68%有效協助國家節電目標114年將繼續深化協助本部擴大"},{"start":2154.733,"end":2157.377,"text":"推動節能措施有助於我國達成116年節電206億度的目標二、確保財務永續推動"},{"start":2165.796,"end":2185.809,"text":"各項重大電力建設,近年來受二污戰爭的影響,國際燃料價格大漲,秉承政府穩定物價,照顧民生及弱勢族群政策,台電公司主動將民生用電採取低調幅或動漲,平均每度民生電價"},{"start":2188.061,"end":2204.892,"text":"2.77元,跟成本每度差1元以上,方才導致台電公司每年吸收民生用電成本800至1000億,111年至113年吸收民生用電成本逾2800億,是台電公司巨額虧損的主要原因。"},{"start":2206.596,"end":2229.466,"text":"為繼續提供民生較輕省的電價又兼顧台電公司的財務穩健爭取於113年及114年分別編列1000億元預算撥補台電公司以利台電公司永續經營且持續推動各項重大電力建設提供社會大眾穩定電力營業收支及盈虧114年度預算編"},{"start":2232.917,"end":2235.479,"text":"編收入1兆47億8,529萬元支出9,970億4,856萬元本期淨利77億3,673億元較113年度預算淨損"},{"start":2253.879,"end":2262.849,"text":"1887億454萬元增加了1964億4127萬元主要是電力費收入增加以及中央政府補助全民電費"},{"start":2264.198,"end":2268.52,"text":"政府補助收入增加等所致投資計劃及資金來源114年度編列構建固定資產投資計劃預算2689億8820萬元其中專案計劃編列1456億4578萬元"},{"start":2282.11,"end":2288.615,"text":"一般建築及設備計畫編列1233億4242萬元資金來源除了582億8920萬元以自有資金支應之外其餘2106億9900萬元向國內外借款籌措二、台水公司"},{"start":2307.793,"end":2335.105,"text":"為穩定國內民生及工業用水強化水質安全避免極端氣候造成供水缺口以及提高供水韌性灘水公司持續以開源、節流、調度、備源等四大主軸作為穩定供水的策略並落實政府照顧民眾之精神具以推動114年度各項重點工作如下依重要業務措施多元水源開發今年"},{"start":2336.42,"end":2358.701,"text":"漢牢平船導致水庫、川流及地下水等傳統水源穩定性不足為穩定供水、台水公司將以開發多元化水源分散風險114年將完成烏溪四萬噸浮流水開發及南化附線等工程並持續推動海水淡化以及水井抽附工程"},{"start":2359.861,"end":2386.877,"text":"以提升水源調度能力二提升淨水廠處理效率台水公司旗下有478處淨水廠部分設備已逐漸老化將依據效益分階段推動淨水廠的現代化設備改造規劃於114年度完成山上林莊及鳥嘴潭三處淨水廠改善及擴建以確保"},{"start":2387.907,"end":2399.63,"text":"水的品質以及效率 持續降低漏水 台水公司將持續降低漏水率計劃以節約水資源114年度編列72.55億元預計淘汰管線長達718公里目標在114年度"},{"start":2409.01,"end":2433.201,"text":"114年底將漏水率降至到11.55%是強化調度備援為因應氣候變遷的供水挑戰臺水公司將投入61.15億元計劃增強單一重要脆弱等維生管線備援能力並在114年度完成4條備援幹線鋪設5提供供水率普及"},{"start":2435.1,"end":2446.845,"text":"提供供水普及率,臺水公司預計從114年至118年配合推動無自來水地區供水改善計畫第5期,114年度預算編列15.3億元以期債114年改善3600戶的供水服務。"},{"start":2453.442,"end":2459.966,"text":"第二大項營業收支及盈虧114年度預算編列收入328億9565萬元支出388億2919萬元虧損59億3354萬元較113年度預算虧損22億6662萬元增加虧損36億6692萬元主要系給水收入減少動力費、外包費、利息及折舊等支出增加所致"},{"start":2483.682,"end":2486.283,"text":"投資計畫及資金來源114年度預算構建固定資產投資計畫編列294億7302萬元其中專案計畫編列218億2058萬元一般建築及設備"},{"start":2501.391,"end":2505.455,"text":"計劃編列76億5244萬元資金來源除了121億6916萬元向國內銀行借貸外其173億386萬元以自有資金支應。敬請各位委員支持與指教。謝謝。好,謝謝公務長。公務長請回座。"},{"start":2528.645,"end":2532.501,"text":"接下來請台灣電力公司請鄭文森董事長報告"},{"start":2542.334,"end":2559.26,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安今天審查台電公司114年預算本人有機會在這邊代表台電公司來跟大院報告114年度的經營概況以下分六大面向來做說明"},{"start":2560.427,"end":2576.576,"text":"首先第一個是有關於確保穩定供電跟強化電網韌性的部分那台電公司持續在改更新改建就是高效的複旋環燃氣機組那增加機組的運轉可靠度同時也提高那個高效的發電占比"},{"start":2577.296,"end":2595.083,"text":"在此同時我們配合電力交易平台擴大電力供給面的同時活絡各種能源的多樣化把分散的民間電力資源能夠引進電力市場整合成為可以調控的電力能夠更有效且實惠的方式共同來協助電力的系統穩定"},{"start":2597.123,"end":2622.291,"text":"電網方面,台電公司加速推動電網強韌建設計畫,會優先完成關鍵設施包括機場、車站、醫院、產業園區等等。同時,也將民生相關的關鍵工程包括線路跟設備的預防維護檢測列為優先加強保護跟汰換配電系統等系統改善工程。在區域調度中心會導入EMS系統,"},{"start":2623.231,"end":2645.818,"text":"提升自動化能力並迅速隔離故障點、縮短停電的時間為了要因應天然災害導致偏鄉部落道路中斷的時候電力修復的時間比較長我們也在跟地方政府研商建置防災行為電網強化整體的電力韌性有關於用戶服務方面主要分兩個大的部分第一個是高壓以上的用戶"},{"start":2646.798,"end":2670.031,"text":"我們會透過高壓用戶服務的入口網站提供各項的包含契約容量、電費試算等等的視覺化分析圖表協助這些大用電戶的電能管理那對於低壓的用戶我們有加裝AMI我們就可以透過台灣電力APP然後可以取得電子帳單的服務同時也可以讓個別的用戶"},{"start":2671.031,"end":2699.43,"text":"取得及時的用電資訊來引導節電等等相關各種的措施那在經濟需求面管理的部分我們現在持續的運用各種的數據分析來篩選跟推廣各種可以參與需量管理的用戶那也會優先協助國公營事業還有醫院這些相關的機構優先的導入各種節電潛力的評估落實政府節電的計畫"},{"start":2701.051,"end":2719.748,"text":"那在第三個部分有關於推動能源轉型跟邁向淨零的目標那台電公司作為一個供電公司我們有三個面向需要同時做管理就是分別是供電需求以及介於中間的電網的三大面向那目標是朝向先低碳再零碳的方向來前進"},{"start":2720.549,"end":2743.516,"text":"那台電公司自己也在推動有關光電、離岸風電、地韌等等再生能源的開發同時透過燃氣的橋接來配合再生能源的滲透率的提高那也加速減碳的一些相關的工作那除此之外我們也會提前布局投入包括類似氫能等等的混燒、碳補桌等等相關的前瞻技術"},{"start":2744.236,"end":2770.989,"text":"希望能夠透過這些新的淨零技術早日達成淨零減碳的目標那除此之外有非常多的綠電基本上發電以後需要有妥善的併網環境那台電公司是持續加強推動各種的再生能源的電力網工程那能夠加速併網等等的工作提高我們再生能源的供應量那也因為如此所以我們在今年"},{"start":2772.55,"end":2789.472,"text":"2024年度明年編制的預算裡面,台電的受電量事實上因為透過電網轉供的關係,所以台電的受電量的成長本身並不會很多,可是整個系統的供電量事實上是會維持一定程度的成長。"},{"start":2790.533,"end":2815.274,"text":"除此之外第四個面向就是導入了數位科技擴大數位應用等等的一些相關的服務在基礎面上面台電現在為了因應數位轉型的大數據需求我們也透過我們的一些相關的空間的建置建置了雲端的資料中心也推動台電公司的資料治理希望透過這些新的資料治理的方式"},{"start":2815.894,"end":2837.191,"text":"以及我們新的各種電力設備發電跟用電等等的資訊的收集能夠導入AI的系統加強未來整個智慧電網的調控等等相關的一些工作第5個面向是有關於經營績效提升確保財務永續的部分"},{"start":2837.771,"end":2853.264,"text":"那這個部分就是有關於台電的財務以及我們電費等等相關的問題其實這段時間以來討論非常非常的多那簡而言之其實台電過去這兩三年來並沒有辦法在電價上面完全反映"},{"start":2854.225,"end":2872.661,"text":"國際能源價格上漲所帶動的成本提升我們因為還漲的關係所以有累積了一些虧損需要彌平我們希望這一個部分能夠得到大院的支持就是有關於台電相關的一些補貼的預算也希望大院的委員能夠"},{"start":2874.537,"end":2896.128,"text":"透過尋答瞭解臺電實際的財務狀況以及過去虧損造成的理由能夠給予臺電公司一定程度的財務支持第6個部分是有關於促進永續經營跟提升人力價值的部分我想永續發展大概是整個電力轉型最關鍵的一個核心目標它也是一個普世價值"},{"start":2897.108,"end":2921.395,"text":"那台電公司透過完善的一個永續治理的架構我們會持續的來關注氣候風險對決各項的倡議跟指標來檢討台電內部各項的工作是不是符合永續的目標那同時也透過這些檢視來提升我們自己永續經營的韌性那對於永續發展的一些相關的議題尤其是"},{"start":2921.975,"end":2934.762,"text":"大家關心電力建設所影響的環境永續的問題台電公司會透過公開透明的原則揭露必要的消息也希望能夠調合各項的利害關係人權益能夠讓我們的永續經營更有競爭力"},{"start":2939.544,"end":2951.597,"text":"最後還有一個關鍵的是,台電公司這幾年來也面對到了人員的加速的退休跟新的增補,所以面對多元的面向的人力我們會"},{"start":2953.106,"end":2967.123,"text":"藉由校園的紮根還有拓展跟學界的合作提前來布局延攬電業發展所需要的人才那另外因應未來趨勢變化我們也會將台電公司所需要的各項專業的訓練"},{"start":2969.746,"end":2985.96,"text":"讓能夠更紮實的推動同時也規劃建置相關的徵照制度來要求同仁接受各種各項新的訓練提升自己的專業技能那在"},{"start":2987.632,"end":3016.696,"text":"對未來的發展上面我們希望臺電公司透過人力的更新進步以及各項技術的提升能夠提供臺灣一個穩定永續而具有韌性的電力環境以上報告謝謝謝謝臺灣電力公司中央政府董事長針對經營該方的報告接著請臺灣電力公司王耀廷總經理針對111算該方做報告"},{"start":3024.434,"end":3049.946,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家好今天適逢大院審查臺電公司114年度的營業預算本人以下請就臺電公司113年度的預算執行情形還有就是114年度的營業預算的內容做一個簡要報告那首先報告113年度預算的執行情形在供售電量的這個產銷情形方面113年度到9月底子我們累計的供電量是1898億度"},{"start":3053.047,"end":3059.675,"text":"達到全年預算2587億度的73%那113年度到9月底累計的售電量是1795億度也達到全年度預算2445億度的73%那其次在收支盈虧方面113年度截止到9月底"},{"start":3074.851,"end":3101.379,"text":"雖然國際的燃料價格有稍微回穩但是比起二五戰爭前仍然高出許多113年度我們在4月跟10月起雖然電價做了兩次的調漲但是仍然低於我們的成本導致台電公司目前仍持續虧損未來台電公司除了努力降低營運成本之外我們仍然需要政府的預算補助才能逐步改善我們的財務困境"},{"start":3103.393,"end":3108.377,"text":"114年度預算編列情形公售電產銷營業目標114年度計劃售電量2450億度比113年度預算售電量2440億度增加5億度這是考量預估明年經濟狀況配合用電需求來做估編"},{"start":3128.294,"end":3139.74,"text":"同樣在供電量方面是2,607億度比上年度的預算供電量2,587億度我們增加了20億度那一樣都是配合這個受電量的需求來顧邊"},{"start":3142.16,"end":3154.288,"text":"除此之外在營業收支及營餘方面的估計方面114年度的預算總收入是1兆448億元總支出是9971億元收支相抵之後預計的稅前盈利淨利是77億元比上年度的預算虧損1887億元我們淨利增加了1964億元"},{"start":3168.098,"end":3183.731,"text":"電費收入有增加另外就是中央政府的編列補助全民電費1000億的收入除此之外,台電公司為了配合經濟發展政府的政策以及用電需求讓我們持續開發電源並且進行電網投資114年度的固定資產投資計劃總共編列了2690億元其中專案計劃編列1457億元"},{"start":3195.06,"end":3201.806,"text":"另外一般建築及設備計劃是編列1233億元在財務方面我們114年度台電公司預計我們舉借長期借款有3290億元作為來支應固定資產的建設改良擴充還有就是借款還本之用那預計我們還本是1185億元"},{"start":3219.7,"end":3240.891,"text":"最後,臺電身為國營試驗以穩定供電為首要任務,我們將實際辦理機組更新改建、電網強韌以及部件儲能、智慧電網等等,來開發解禁電力,強化再生能源,來確保供電穩定。另外,為了邁向2050年近年轉型目標,我們會在電力供給、電網及用戶"},{"start":3242.592,"end":3264.378,"text":"用電的需求等三大面向逐步來達到全體的淨零目標。 台電公司業務成本各位委員的鼎力支持我們今後仍將繼續請各位委員來給我們指導讓電業的經營能夠不斷繼續發展經濟以及增進全面福祉貢獻新力以上報告敬請各位委員的支持及指教謝謝大家"},{"start":3268.971,"end":3279.502,"text":"謝謝台電公司王耀廷總經理針對台電營業預算概況做的報告。接下來請台灣自來水公司董事長李江董事長針對經營概況做報告。"},{"start":3288.408,"end":3309.678,"text":"主席、各位委員、大院今天審查臺水公司114年度預算本人有機會就公司110年度的經營概況向各位委員會提出報告自感榮幸臺水公司堅固提供量足自由自來水質鏈物多年來積極致力於民生及工業用水質供應請就114年度經營概況收明如下"},{"start":3310.518,"end":3324.49,"text":"一、建制調度備援幹管提升區域供水調配彈性,為強化水資源調度及備援能力。二、台水公司奉行政院合併推動備援幹管復建工程計畫,其成在110-115年,投入199.5億元,預計完成17條備援管線,完成後每日約可維持穩定供水量261萬。"},{"start":3336.661,"end":3359.05,"text":"立方公示,臺水公司亦配合水利署執行的增速串相關的工程,包括北部石門水庫至新竹聯通管的計畫,中部臺中至營林區域水源調度管線改善計畫及大安大甲溪聯通管工程計畫,山南部正文南化聯通管工程,完成後將有效。"},{"start":3360.148,"end":3381.133,"text":"提升供水穩定及水資源應用效力二、善用資訊科技持續降低漏水為健全供水管管系統提升供水品質及減少水資源浪費降低漏水力為臺水公司重大且持續性的工作現行降低漏水力計畫102至113年以12年間投入了經費1,003億元推動降漏相關工作"},{"start":3388.354,"end":3412.201,"text":"漏水率已由101年底的19.55%降至112年底的12.54%亦即113年底降到目標12%以下下階段降低漏水率114到121年除依循全期計畫之執行成果與經驗積極降漏再增加維護管理執行重點"},{"start":3414.926,"end":3433.275,"text":"該計劃將以8年間再籌入經費808億元,預計121年底漏水利降至9.77%以下,每年可節省約5910萬立方公尺的水量,約相當於1.17座湖山水庫有效的汐水容量。"},{"start":3434.735,"end":3455.628,"text":"推動現代化淨水廠提升營業效能,臺水公司各型淨水廠共有478處,部分淨水廠因營業多年,設備逐漸老化,故即需逐年編列預算更新或汰換淨水廠處理設備,其仍符合水質標準穩定未來供水需求。"},{"start":3456.768,"end":3482.1,"text":"經台水公司評估篩選出即期更新改善的進水廠共計21處其中短期已設備汰換既有建築物補強者亦即已115年以前完成改善11處的進水廠中長期需拆除重建或新建者有10處現正依其程辦理可行性研究等作業"},{"start":3483.28,"end":3504.535,"text":"是加速無自來水地區供水改善提高供水普及率。 台水公司為上進企業社會責任近年已除夕辦理配合經濟部水利署無自來水地區供水改善計畫改善偏遠地區用水。 截至113年6月底,台水公司的供水普及率達95.08%。"},{"start":3511.632,"end":3538.173,"text":"為持續改善及提升無自來水住戶的飲用水品質及配合政府照顧偏鄉政策經濟部水利署已於今年再提無自來水地區供水改善計畫第5期業奉行政院合定計畫期程114到118年台水公司將根系配合辦理自來水的沿管工程執行經費計75億元總收益戶一估有1.5萬戶"},{"start":3541.38,"end":3566.861,"text":"實踐前流程水安全確保供水品質,為提升供水安全,海水公司參考世界衛生組織 及國際水協 推動水安全做法,訂定水安全計畫施行要點,辦理水源端到用戶端各環節風險的鑑別改善及確效,執行水質多重屏障管理,以確保"},{"start":3568.561,"end":3571.73,"text":"以確保全流程水安全及供水品質"},{"start":3573.457,"end":3586.706,"text":"6.推動淨零排放,減反極端氣候衝擊。 台水公司經營發展與自然環境息息相關,沿成立淨零轉型小組。 原定1."},{"start":3586.706,"end":3588.327,"text":"提升人員效率2."},{"start":3588.327,"end":3589.788,"text":"發展綠色人員3."},{"start":3589.788,"end":3592.07,"text":"推動綠色辦公4."},{"start":3592.07,"end":3594.291,"text":"提供綠色服務5."},{"start":3594.291,"end":3601.696,"text":"加強綠色生產及支援有效利用等五項淨零策略。 台水公司參照環境部溫室氣體減量目標。"},{"start":3603.537,"end":3608.743,"text":"以分別訂定短中期檢探目標,後續將持續進行滾動檢討,朝139年達到淨領排放的長期目標邁進。歷行徵收檢資改善財務結構"},{"start":3622.967,"end":3646.906,"text":"臺水公司配合經濟部水利署辦理水源調度政策執行各式重要投資工程及專案計畫致責救逐年增加又受升息及動力會增加影響導致營運成本節節上升面對經營困境未改善財務狀況臺水公司除定期召開經營收支控管會議"},{"start":3648.862,"end":3652.9,"text":"針對各項年度可控的費用收入預算科目進行管控"},{"start":3654.558,"end":3677.812,"text":"並加強發展各項開眼節流措施。 在開眼方面,臺水公司沿體火化不動產,發展太陽能延遜中心出租及代訓等相關措施,暨其增加公司收入。 在節流方面,臺水公司在滿足民生及經濟發展首席的用水避免切水危機的前提下,"},{"start":3678.942,"end":3696.46,"text":"乃沿體降低沿侵水採購成本節約動力會支出節省債務利息等相關措施以蹲劫支出以上僅向各位委員報告台水公司經營概況敬請各位委員鼎力支持並請不任指教"},{"start":3698.976,"end":3709.715,"text":"好,謝謝台水公司李家洋董事長針對基因概況所作的報告最後請台水公司李丁的總計針對一月預算概況作報告"},{"start":3715.917,"end":3743.132,"text":"主席、各位委員、信封大院審查臺水公司114年度預算定來的列席報告自感榮幸臺水公司113年度預算執行情形及114年度營業預算內容檢要如後,敬請指教與支持113年度預算執行情形產交情形銷售水量截至10月底銷售水量為21.3億立方公尺為前年預算之81.43%生產水量截至10月底供水量為"},{"start":3745.054,"end":3762.595,"text":"26.87億立方公尺為全年預算之82%收支盈虧截至10月底總收入為286.22億元總支出為315.31億元稅金虧損29.09億元主要原因是再生水、節水等政策影響受水收入未如預期"},{"start":3764.668,"end":3789.033,"text":"連續3年電價調漲及利率維持高檔增加動力會及利息支出各項工程完工加入營運自責就會增加214年度預算編列情形主要營運目標銷售水量114年度計劃售水量為25.4億立方公尺較113年度減少0.77億立方公尺主要是考量在生水政策及用水需求編列"},{"start":3791.006,"end":3804.421,"text":"計劃生產水量114年度計劃供水量為31.6億立方公尺較130度減少1.15億立方公尺主要是配合受水量及降低漏水計劃成果所編列營業收支及盈虧114年度預計總收入為328.9億元總支出為"},{"start":3811.448,"end":3831.843,"text":"388.29億元預計稅前虧損59.34億元主要是給水收入減少、動力費、外包、利息及折舊等增加固定資產投資計畫,台水公司會配合經濟發展政府政策及用水需求持續辦理降低洞水域及各項設施、新構建等工程固定資產投資計畫共294.73億元"},{"start":3835.515,"end":3838.257,"text":"營運資金來源預計舉借之長期借款為411億元主要是支運、償還救災及固定資產"},{"start":3844.994,"end":3870.564,"text":"投資建設改良所用,預計償還到期長期債務283.1億元,為提供用戶量足自由自來水。台水公司將積極落實各項策略及盡辦理各項執行計畫,提升國民生活水準,促進經濟發展。以上報告,敬請各位支持與指教。好,謝謝台水公司理念總經理報告。"},{"start":3871.611,"end":3883.378,"text":"這上面報告的各位官員今天不要整本照念可以的話則重點來做清楚的說明如果整本照念的話我用看的就好了好這個"},{"start":3888.064,"end":3903.516,"text":"現在要開始進行詢答委員諮詢之前與主席願意做以下宣告本會委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點截止登記"},{"start":3907.597,"end":3932.438,"text":"為了讓會議能夠順利進行以及每位委員發言的時間的公平性另外不要影響下位委員發言的權益在每位委員執行時間結束之後主席會立即請諮議委員停止諮詢請各位委員能夠配合感謝我們先確定上次議事錄請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有錯誤"},{"start":3934.025,"end":3952.577,"text":"沒有,我們就確定上次議事錄好,接著現在進行詢答第一位委員請陳庭薇委員我們請那個台電董事長台電政董事長還有我們經濟部長經濟部郭部長"},{"start":3962.62,"end":3985.09,"text":"謝謝部長我想我們一直都在關心我們地方的問題在上一次的質詢我已經要求你們要去抓出這幕後的黑手為什麼我們台南的天然氣發電廠都可以橫著走但是好像我們也沒有得到中央有任何的訊息"},{"start":3986.854,"end":4009.591,"text":"我必須再正式跟我們部長再把所有的資料再review一次寶春在台南開說明會我不知道寶春現在是到哪一個階段到處開說明會善話也開、觀點也開、麻豆也開他在開什麼啊然後搞得人心惶惶所有的里長都反對"},{"start":4010.97,"end":4038.564,"text":"然後問他說請問你們要設在哪裡不知道然後勉勉強強說我要設在善化好善化我們也去找出這個土地在哪裡台台沒有同意台台沒有同意喔土地沒有同意我特別去調了你們在發電的整個申請設置的過程跟流程好我們現在來看寶川"},{"start":4041.687,"end":4054.773,"text":"目前籌設的相關計畫書送了嗎?那個我們的董事長送了嗎?那個報告委員因為這個不會是台灣公司主管"},{"start":4055.435,"end":4057.277,"text":"跟委員報告我們是民事合約不是這些政府管制事項"},{"start":4075.018,"end":4103.465,"text":"對啊 你們是合約嘛才能跟你們進行採購招標嘛 對不對要有這六大文件嘛 對不對董事長你要說清楚啦 是不是兩個事情啦齁 你講的是六大文件這個六大文件是他要拿到電業當然相關執照的時候六大文件要跟台電取得一個合約的關係他不見得完成啦齁就是他要興建完成我們的合約好 那要跟你拿到合約到底要到什麼階段"},{"start":4104.685,"end":4121.781,"text":"他要拿什麼東西來跟你申請合約他參加我們的招標要參加招標嗎那要拿哪些文件才能參加招標這個有不同的階段有不同的規定那基本上六大文件是他要拿到他的電業執照的時候六大文件要齊備"},{"start":4123.112,"end":4141.353,"text":"當然那招標到底我要拿到哪些資料招標有部分的時間它可以候補就是環評當然可以候補嘛那哪些是一定要拿到你說環評跟地方政府的同意函可以候補但是投射計畫書要不要有要有嗎"},{"start":4143.956,"end":4165.712,"text":"要不要有還是都可以候補跟委員報告他這個籌設計畫書這都是要送主管機關去審查的啦對嘛我知道就是他要跟你來進行招標的時候這些文件要不要備齊嗎要不要目前為止不需要就是現在不需要所以都不需要聽我講完不需要籌設也不需要環評也不需要地方統一書也不需要然後咧然後發電廠的電源線引接統一行要不要"},{"start":4171.988,"end":4172.909,"text":"發言委員 您講的這些東西都要確定才能跟你們申請這個相關的合約嘛 對不對 所以我說有兩個階段嘛"},{"start":4187.944,"end":4208.744,"text":"但是要跟你們申請這個合約一定要把這些籌建籌設的計畫書還有我們的這個發電廠的土地同意書還有我們的這個發電廠的電源線引接同意函對不對還有我們天然氣的供應的同意函"},{"start":4211.266,"end":4232.304,"text":"參與投標要有這些文件對這些基本文件嘛起碼環評跟同意案你說那兩樣可以厚補可是這四樣是基本一定要拿到的這是他投標的時候要送來但是他們還沒有參與投標裡面總是沒有人民的同意書嘛人民同意書是在籌設的部分嘛地方的審核嘛對不對地方政府的同意書"},{"start":4233.348,"end":4247.521,"text":"所以,台電如果依照這樣,寶春有送了這個合約了嗎?沒有嗎?那個,我們沒有開這個,就我們開的標,他沒有來投標,就沒有送這些東西所以就沒有嗎?所以到目前為止是沒有的,對不對?"},{"start":4248.702,"end":4267.087,"text":"沒有嗎?目前為止沒有來投標嗎?來董事長麥克風講清楚到目前為止寶春有沒有來我們的台電針對我們台南的發電廠的這些相關資料來進行招標有沒有目前他們沒有來投標沒有嗎?沒有投標好來部長很清楚他沒有投標也沒有這些相關的資料那請問他在開什麼說明會啊?"},{"start":4278.473,"end":4303.914,"text":"報告委員 這個可能是在環評上面 錯了 他也沒送環評他也沒送環評阿 他所有的資料都沒有阿 他在送什麼 他沒有送環評來 部長 土地同意書都沒有拿到了 他是要設在哪裡阿他開什麼環評阿 環評要不要土地同意書 要不要 要阿"},{"start":4309.793,"end":4332.091,"text":"環評要不要土地同意書跟委員報告一下他這個說明環評要不要土地同意書你不要再跟我這樣說來說去啦環評要不要土地同意書啦需要需要嘛土地同意書台堂都沒有同意請問他設在哪裡講不清楚說不明白他在開什麼說明會他在開什麼說明會部長這很嚴重欸造成地方的恐慌"},{"start":4339.582,"end":4342.383,"text":"他是誰在讓他靠我不知道但是他已經過分了亂開通造成地方的困擾第一時間在善化的時候也是胡搞瞎搞我們已經邀集相關單位去到現場已經跟他說了現在他開得更大從善化開到關鐵開到麻豆"},{"start":4369.676,"end":4376.721,"text":"所有的資料都沒有都沒有耶最重要的土地同意書都沒有他到底要設在哪裡大家都不知道"},{"start":4381.584,"end":4404.551,"text":"用騙的嗎?報告委員我想這個集會的這個過程齁那主管單位應該不是經濟部所以我們會要求這個地方主管單位來瞭解一下對啦現在都不是對現在都不是因為現在大家都在推皮球但是都說用電很重要那我都不知道難道用電重要就讓這些電廠橫著走嗎來部長我再請教一下申辦"},{"start":4411.798,"end":4435.664,"text":"申報第一期欠地方21.6億的回饋金這很清楚了當時候在環評裡面是要求是要當時候我們整個收入不是淨值喔 是收入我們售電收入不是淨值喔售電收入這樣算起來就是21.6億的回饋金"},{"start":4438.38,"end":4453.509,"text":"結果21.6億的回饋金現在一起欠我們這麼多你們沒有人敢處理現在居然申辦還可以用二期要沿用一期的管線再用50年沒有安全評估"},{"start":4455.123,"end":4470.596,"text":"也沒有給我們回覆也沒有給我們答案然後再來專案型電協金因為我們的整個電業法裡面有說專案型電協金是年度電協金的30%完全淪為電廠的小金庫他在修理反對的聲音媒體都爆了喔媒體都爆了喔這一家電廠是某人的小金庫喔是誰的小金庫去查清楚"},{"start":4481.064,"end":4483.605,"text":"謝謝主席,我想請郭部長請進一步,郭部長"},{"start":4517.844,"end":4530.798,"text":"委員長部長早安我想請教一下為什麼原本預計12月台電要在美國場舉辦新場的完工典禮為什麼取消"},{"start":4533.128,"end":4554.377,"text":"這個可能要問台積電真的嗎?你沒去了解嗎?台積電不是經濟部的子公司啦所以我當然知道你不是不是你們經濟部的子公司啊但是半導體相關的產業是台灣重要的命脈你上次說張忠謀董事長說全球化已死"},{"start":4555.197,"end":4561.867,"text":"你認同是不是?那台積電的我們台灣的人才他們想要去美國設廠嗎?"},{"start":4564.212,"end":4584.879,"text":"我們現在跟委員報告我們走向世界這個是必要的一個過程因為世界都需要台積電對台積電走向世界這是一個必然的一個現象但是因為台積電自有的我們現在台灣台積電大概整個加起來有8萬的員工"},{"start":4587.826,"end":4611.511,"text":"我們台灣委員應該很清楚台積電幾乎在未來的十幾年應該如果按照他們的計畫這個可能當然是台積電自己報告了據我們側邊因為我們必須要準備水、電各方面給他我們自己討論的結果台積電很有可能一年在台灣蓋一個廠"},{"start":4613.809,"end":4627.189,"text":"所以我們都必須要為台積電的這樣的一個繁榮給以祝福其實台灣但是你必須要了解台灣的高科技人才也許他們不想要離開而且"},{"start":4629.252,"end":4643.826,"text":"美國的這種勞動的文化跟台灣也有大部分的差異所以在台積電在台灣所製造的這樣子相關的優勢能不能複製到美國會不會水土不合"},{"start":4645.229,"end":4669.467,"text":"對不對報告委員是這樣子就我們所了解的部分因為文化的不一樣然後作業又要求要一樣這裡面當然有一些認知的差異所以當初這個美國大概派了700位工程師來台灣訓練訓練完了又回去那麼台灣本來去的人大概也是五六百個人去"},{"start":4670.228,"end":4685.505,"text":"那我想這些都是一個新廠特別是在海外必須要有的部分因為這個半導體廠非常非常的複雜非常非常複雜他除了使用設備之外他個人的對半導體的知識"},{"start":4686.986,"end":4710.24,"text":"跟他的經驗非常重要如果你今天從事的是一個先端科技的話幾乎沒有標準作業程序也就是說沒有SOP的那這種這個部分我想委員應該很清楚他在美國美國用的大概都是先端的技術其實這種先端技術在台灣其實也非常的少也非常的少"},{"start":4710.72,"end":4733.762,"text":"那麼台積電投資那麼多的錢要兩三百億美金這個錢我相信他們會很審慎他們也希望在海外的廠能夠快速的成功所以這裡面他們非常的複雜好太複雜了我們講簡單的為什麼取消回到原題為什麼取消是不是川普對於台積電"},{"start":4735.163,"end":4762.096,"text":"他當初就說我們是偷他的晶片嘛是不是他要對台積電科與重稅那我們都到美國去了我想要問台積電就是美國晶片法給予台積電的補償有沒有拿到?拿到了有拿到是不是那為什麼這個完工典禮為什麼沒有照時的舉行是不是新的川普政府對於台積電不會像過去一樣這麼支持?"},{"start":4763.857,"end":4779.047,"text":"報導委員這個台積電在亞利桑那這個場事實上是在川普上一任的時代的時候所做的決定的所以這個應該川普都不參加我不太清楚這個可能要台積電來做決定這樣"},{"start":4781.408,"end":4808.233,"text":"所以川普就不參加還有我下一個問題是為什麼我想要請問我們現在稅前這是1到9月台電的損益表如果昨天在省追加預算1000億那如果我們撥補是在收入裡面那代表了台電的這個是不是今年就會有盈餘了那為什麼明年還要1000億"},{"start":4810.87,"end":4823.858,"text":"因為是有累積虧損存在那我想在他的資產上面資產負債表上面可以明確的來看得出來所以我們應該是這樣就是說他過去累積目前還有3000多億還有3000多億的這個虧損這個會影響他的財務"},{"start":4827.58,"end":4831.504,"text":"你今年已經漲電價了欸你趕快轉頭看看他們兩位今年已經給人家漲兩次電價了欸你看看去年的稅前盈餘在同期的時候是負1500多億欸你今年已經縮減到負278億欸"},{"start":4851.604,"end":4856.865,"text":"你現在要來跟人家要錢如果給你追加一千億你就已經盈餘啦那你明年度那你說 什麼樣的狀況下你明年度不會賺錢如果我們今年給你一千億你要講嘛你要討錢要有道理嘛 對不對"},{"start":4870.409,"end":4881.995,"text":"當然 報告委員 現在這是這樣就是說立法院的一層額是來幫助我們的債務的經營更好幫助我們債務經營更好 我去跟人家求情 利息就可以更便宜我們的利息經營不太好 所以我們盡量改善債務經營 先說我們看過期有什麼趨勢 過期的趨勢裡面我們要買材料要想幾 我們醫藥材料想辦法"},{"start":4899.665,"end":4902.566,"text":"今天給你一千億,為什麼一定有盈餘啊?為什麼明年還要給你一千億?你講不出來啊,對不對?報告委員,這是這樣,過去三年,我們已經知道了,過去的氣氛比較多,我們的民間的電,我們現在都動輒你今年就賺錢了,我們今年這一千億通過的話,你就賺錢了"},{"start":4928.218,"end":4953.285,"text":"你如果賺錢的話,你明年有什麼要跟別人討錢?對不對?還有什麼?這個補助的部分,事實上是在補他的這個虧損的部分所以你說補助現在他賺錢,但是他不是實力上面的賺錢不是他自己的能力的賺錢所以我們在補過去的3000多億,事實上明年"},{"start":4954.305,"end":4967.2,"text":"你講不出來啦!你講不出來啦!你這個人你就賺錢啦!你給人家賺一千元你就賺錢啦!沒有啦!沒賺錢啦!你自己當你算小算什麼!你是企業家你最清楚了啦!我非常清楚!幫我委員這個部分齁!"},{"start":4969.622,"end":4986.83,"text":"我們在補過去的虧損補過去的虧損讓我們在財務上面我們還是要繼續借錢我們當然非常的努力我們要非常的努力讓明年是可以賺錢的但是這個賺錢還是沒有辦法補過去虧損的部分我在問你最後一個問題美國現在他們已經說了核電要增加兩倍預計2050年前要增加"},{"start":4999.275,"end":4999.536,"text":"臺灣的核能政策"},{"start":5010.504,"end":5010.644,"text":"臺灣的核能"},{"start":5040.664,"end":5065.924,"text":"好,那要跟進喔好,謝謝委員好,謝謝師傭委員部長先回座來,我們下一位諮詢請邱益穎委員好,謝謝主席,我是不是先請部長請經濟部郭部長"},{"start":5069.07,"end":5095.108,"text":"跟那個臺水臺水李董事長委員長早安部長早部長我想我們今天討論水跟電那當然還是要來談一下這個水電的供給的問題這個卓院長前幾天有去參加這個自來水節他也特別提到未來會有106億要去補助無自來水地區"},{"start":5096.108,"end":5110.96,"text":"我們也看到在這個前瞻計畫的編列裡頭其實你們現在已經把無自來水地區的這個沿管的費用一般地區從每一戶60萬增加到80萬原住民區域大概也是從60萬增加到100萬"},{"start":5113.321,"end":5139.049,"text":"這個看起來這個錢是增加了但是你的160億要做在無自來水地區我們現在的全國的供水率是達到95%剩下的那個5%其實是難度很高如果這麼簡單的話這個5%早就達成了嘛政府每年編了那麼多錢我先講第一件事情我覺得台水公司在過去的幾年其實非常的努力包括我們的降低漏水率的部分"},{"start":5139.769,"end":5156.594,"text":"包括這一些自來水沿管的工程的部分這個我必須給予肯定甚至在前兩個颱風的時候我們在六龜有一個工作人員為了去巡視六龜的淨水場差一點被土石流掩埋所以我覺得這個我們應該某個程度上要給台水公司肯定"},{"start":5157.094,"end":5183.908,"text":"但是口頭的肯定是不夠的所以我非常同意那一天卓院長特別講到了所謂的技術加急這件事情喔技術加急這個事情當然是卓院長現在提出來的但是我們現在可能在預算裡頭是看不到的 對不對董事長現在在你們的還是部長您可以回答在預算裡頭現在還是看不到的嘛所以你的技術加急會從什麼時候開始我們現在在演繹中我希望能夠越快越好"},{"start":5184.622,"end":5203.285,"text":"希望愈快愈好,但是你現在的預算已經編列完整已經送到立法院來來,所以你最快也是要明年嗎?還是你可以從其他的地方去運資?那個是在我們從技術上面來提升技術上面來提升是怎麼樣提升?技術加急董事長你要回答嗎?"},{"start":5205.916,"end":5221.837,"text":"跟委員報告我們114年度已經有編用聯會例裡面也有一個調新的計畫那院長所以你這個是做在調新計畫裡頭不是另外再編一個所謂的技術加擠這樣的一個項目他整體還是在我們的用聯會裡面"},{"start":5224.914,"end":5240.966,"text":"這就是我剛剛特別講到的你們的沿管備用的增加包括這些改善其實我有一個想法這個我也曾經跟自來水公司跟水利署也討論過我在這邊也提出來跟部長做參考就是說"},{"start":5242.088,"end":5254.903,"text":"現在自來水未普及的地方大多是在偏鄉在山上在部落所以如果你從山下要拉自來水管線到山上去你所用的這些費用比如說我現在看到原鄉"},{"start":5259.465,"end":5280.524,"text":"一戶你給他增加到100萬其實還是遠遠不足啦那如果我們能夠在偏遠的山區用簡易自來水但是我要求也拜託自來水公司參與所謂的簡易自來水的建造計畫簡易自來水塔的建造計畫提升水值"},{"start":5281.184,"end":5307.563,"text":"現在的簡易自來水塔其實是非常簡單它就是叫簡易真的是非常簡易如果它能夠加入台水的技術把這個簡易自來水塔的淨化水質的技術把它提升讓偏遠的山區的人也能夠享有跟自來水一樣的水質的話那我想其實可以不用花到那麼多錢從山下沿管到山上去部長您同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":5308.263,"end":5334.459,"text":"非常同意謝謝委員這個指教我們自來水公司有非常多的這方面的技術所以我們可以完全按照委員的指示這樣方向來努力所以我覺得這個可能讓經濟部從水利署跟自來水公司雙方面甚至跟地方政府因為你們要找設置減水站的地方是要地方政府去做配合所以我希望能夠三方一起合作然後達到"},{"start":5335.68,"end":5355.988,"text":"自來水的普及率最少我在偏遠的山區我有減益自來水我的水值其實是還可以達標的我想這個方向我們一起來做努力謝謝委員我們一起努力接下來自來水公司請回接下來我要講到電費的問題部長您有沒有去住官邸"},{"start":5358.049,"end":5363.13,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":5385.134,"end":5403.123,"text":"大概兩期到一千度左右你知道你官邸的電器是不是都是節電設施不方便回答我告訴你其實我一進去就因為我怕開冷氣所以我都吹電風扇這個部長"},{"start":5406.26,"end":5422.227,"text":"我覺得齁這個就是台灣的一個問題啦我為什麼會問這個例子行政院長的官邸被修理說這個電費很高後來台電去做了一個調查才發現79%是維安人員使用只有21%是院長的住處使用那"},{"start":5427.009,"end":5442.063,"text":"左院長也沒有住在裡面所以那個21%大概也是屬於繳基本電費而已但是有一件事情是你們沒有說的就是在這一些官邸裡頭的電器設備都非常老舊"},{"start":5443.891,"end":5462.2,"text":"你比如說台電的董事長你不敢換電器設備但是你又怕被人家罵說你浪費電所以你只好吹冷氣你就過著原始人的生活你只好吹冷氣你的官邸裡頭有8台冷氣機但是你每天吹電扇對不起你每天吹電扇不是吹冷氣你就每天吹電扇"},{"start":5463.737,"end":5476.941,"text":"我們的行政院的首長宿舍部長你沒有去住你不知道首長宿舍裡面燈也沒有換不敢換冷氣設備也沒有換都不是節電設備"},{"start":5479.102,"end":5495.573,"text":"所以你現在看府院各部會的水電預算都比去年還增加你們的說法當然是說因為過去政府有編列預算直接去補貼現在沒有了回歸各部會自己去付但是其實沒有去做過盤點"},{"start":5497.034,"end":5512.453,"text":"如果經濟部能源局去做過一個盤點所有的部會裡頭的設施基本上因為怕被攻擊怕被說浪費所以都是20幾年前的舊電器啊"},{"start":5513.698,"end":5534.348,"text":"報告委員我們現在在執行一個新的叫做深度節能的計畫ESCO這個計畫就是針對這一些深度節能計畫是只有執行在你經濟部嗎還是所有行政院的各部會都有我們這是全國啦全國的公務系統通通在做這個深度節能計畫"},{"start":5535.228,"end":5547.983,"text":"那你的深度節電計劃有去做最基本的我想你們的辦公廳社、官社這一些最基本的從最基本的節電計劃開始做現在在進行檢測也就是說先檢查哪邊是老舊的跟他檢查身體一樣"},{"start":5551.687,"end":5554.11,"text":"現在開始做檢測我們在跟民眾說你要節電要換變頻要怎樣電費也要換LED結果政府單位現在開始做檢測太歡幸了"},{"start":5566.764,"end":5595.071,"text":"所以我們一直跟民眾說叫人們要換節電設施結果政府單位自己不敢換有啦有在換政府單位現在才在做檢測這實在是很漏氣很漏氣的事情啦是是不然的話我是希望說你們的這個ESCO的這個服務啊是不是能夠加快腳步是的那我覺得今天我的質詢大概行政院長也能夠聽得到啦上次我在這裡罵你行政院長也可以聽得到所以如果是這樣我覺得行政院應該是要帶頭"},{"start":5596.751,"end":5625.479,"text":"趕快把這個ESCO的這個服務落實讓各部會都能夠加速的來進行節能的這個計畫跟政策好嗎?是是謝謝委員謝謝秋英委員聽秋英委員質詢彷彿大汗逢剛臨長夜玉冥燈令人敬佩消費諮詢請林大化委員"},{"start":5628.464,"end":5631.585,"text":"有請部長請郭部長委員長好 部長本席針對台電跟台水那我們先從台電台電的這個福利金這個我本席認為應該要檢討那原因是什麼少子化導致國營事業員工的招聘困難"},{"start":5656.952,"end":5672.322,"text":"那民間的企業薪酬的條件都已經優於國營事業的給付基礎在薪酬規範的限制下如何藉由其他的福利跟保障將成為國營事業招聘薪水的關鍵好那這個福利金呢是不是這個"},{"start":5674.804,"end":5690.902,"text":"在這個福利金的算法其實福利金不是給所有的員工他是在一個專款專戶當中那他的算法是福利金的預算是來自營業收入的總額乘以福利金的提撥"},{"start":5692.263,"end":5717.201,"text":"這個算完之後還要扣這四項因為這四項認為說這個不是員工努力的所以我應該要扣除它第一個要扣除政府補助的收入要這個福利金的計算當中還要扣除這個政府補助的收入這要提出掉不能算入福利金的計算的增加的因素那核能後端的營業收入也要扣掉電價調漲"},{"start":5720.503,"end":5730.191,"text":"這是不是會增加營業收入這件事情也要扣掉這個電腦有問題好嗎電腦有問題我們先停止一下好不好時間先暫停我們時間先暫停好來"},{"start":5749.583,"end":5776.377,"text":"好 這個畫面不對好 OK 那我們恢復 謝謝主席好 那第四個要扣除的非屬員工共限制收入這四個其實有道理但是我認為檢討的這是第三項電價調漲的因素我先回顧之前這個提撥的比例我們其實法定的提撥比例也就是上面那個公式上頁的那個公式右邊的福利金提撥率"},{"start":5777.838,"end":5782.383,"text":"這個提撥率法定的是要0.15%可是我們從來沒有提撥滿額到0.15%我們最多就是到110年的0.12%好我們看"},{"start":5792.794,"end":5814.376,"text":"會有包括提撥率最低的時候是民國97年的時候提撥率才0.1%我們法定是0.15為什麼因為那時候民國90年說應該把電價調漲這件因素把它剔除掉電價調漲會增加收入所以我應該剔除掉在當時的時空背景97年立法院的附帶去本期支持"},{"start":5815.077,"end":5827.234,"text":"因為他那時候的這個相關的油料啊這個相關的都下降嘛所以這個台電是這個營收非常的豐厚所以你還去調漲電價那這怎麼可以變成是員工的這個因素呢好"},{"start":5831.52,"end":5843.084,"text":"那現在的情況不一樣囉現在是我們的二屋戰爭也好那美中的這個區域經濟的競爭也好導致說我現在把我的這個電價的調漲這件事情納入我要福利金是不是也應該要把扣除掉這件事情我認為是應該要檢討的所以今天我們會調降電價的調漲這個是人員政策啊"},{"start":5859.549,"end":5876.781,"text":"這個不是台電阿這個電現在的電價調漲是為了彌補台電購電成本的增加並非台電員工不努力可是我現在的人員政策電價調漲變成處罰台電員工了我必須扣除台電同仁的福利金阿"},{"start":5877.762,"end":5892.664,"text":"所以本席主張應該要檢討臺電同仁的福利金這一樣維持90之年的提案只是有一個但書臺電不得以電價調漲所增加的營業收入來增加員工福利金但"},{"start":5893.404,"end":5912.549,"text":"在營業總額有盈餘的情況之下這不再實現也就是說只要有盈餘當然我的你還敢去漲電價再增加我本來已經有盈餘再去再去再去漲那當然我就必須把你的這個福利金當中應該扣掉這個因素所以我覺得做應該要做這樣的調漲也就是說電價調漲用於是在彌補台電虧損的情況之下"},{"start":5919.552,"end":5936.625,"text":"則應該刪除電價調漲作為福利金的檢向部長你怎麼看我認同委員的這個槌尋這個部分我們回去根據您的這個槌尋我們來討論一下我們來檢討一下大概多久"},{"start":5939.179,"end":5964.893,"text":"這個部分我想 這個因為是法規定的啦 這個只是員工裡面的 這個只是附帶決議你們的內規 是不是我讓那個我跟委員報告 第一個就是我們台電公司的福利金的總額從來沒有減少過 而且是在往上升的因為他每年會看狀況不一樣 那剛委員所提的說是不是營業收入這個部分會受電價 這個我們會去檢討"},{"start":5967.314,"end":5989.042,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告就是說所有員工的那個福利金我們從來沒有減少過一塊錢是往上升的是是但是你的總額是在減少的嗎沒有沒有總額是在上升總額在上升對我要跟委員特別報告所以每個人的平均的那個福利金也是在上升的所以我們要考慮到四家公司有油電糖水四家因為營業狀況不一樣他的福利金可能會不一樣那我們這個會去檢討大概給我們一個月的時間"},{"start":5992.303,"end":6019.952,"text":"好 那我們來看台水虧損有4個原因養父面積太大了 台水現在有超過7萬6千公里的自來水管需要維護跟更新 第二個水價長期一國兩制 這是本期要質詢的重點根本就對我全台灣人民來講完全沒有用水正義 水費的規則是偏利於用水大戶的 像台積電等等這些都是叫做用水大戶 但是他們"},{"start":6021.673,"end":6044.341,"text":"所收的費用他們的耗水之高我們在台水北水是要給他規定的但是台水是沒有的再來第三成本上漲利息沉重第四個自行舉債舉措經費我們現在非常自豪的我也非常肯定台水的那個漏水利的一個減少但是是他們舉債"},{"start":6046.303,"end":6057.018,"text":"這是舉在來降低我們的漏水率那7萬6千公里的管線維護的成本高我們看世界各國主要城市的漏水率右邊這張圖我們排在第6名"},{"start":6061.484,"end":6082.63,"text":"這個是不容易耶,雖然我們離法國那個第5名12.54%到9%我們還差了3點多%這其實是有點差距但總是我們有第6名那這7萬6千公里的這個管線全台灣這個是什麼概念就是繞地球兩圈的管路概念那台水這樣的漏水力還能夠維持"},{"start":6083.81,"end":6108.518,"text":"還能維持這麼高我覺得真的是了不起那他付出了什麼代價他付出了全台灣他只有80位的水醫生這個水醫生每天都要走上萬公里啊然後再來他付出什麼代價只要我們全台灣哪裡有地下水管破裂水公司一定都第一次第一線每幾分鐘十分鐘內都一定要趕快抵達否則一定會被罵臭頭"},{"start":6109.918,"end":6132.503,"text":"好可是他的這樣的維護成本之高維持這麼低的這個漏水率但是他付出這樣的代價好那但是呢他也自負盈虧舉債來修漏水我們從102年到113年有效的降水這樣降水的這個比例降了7.55%也就是降低漏水率超過一座的10門水庫達2.5"},{"start":6134.923,"end":6135.644,"text":"臺水的借款負債達1044.25億新台幣"},{"start":6158.844,"end":6175.549,"text":"這對一家公司來講這不破產才怪那再來呢所以這邊我具體要求第一個比照台北自來水事務處研議每月用水1000噸以上的用水大幅新增收費集聚來漲水用水增益用水增益是對全台灣2300萬人民我說對台積電這種用水大廠"},{"start":6180.851,"end":6209.439,"text":"你絕對只要水電限電限水都限在什麼地方限在人民用水限在農業用水限在中小企業的用水台積電等這種耗水廠你絕對不敢給他限水或者停電絕對不敢可是我是用人民可是你不敢去找我們的台水公司不敢我不曉得什麼理由你們不敢去對比照這個北水台北市做得到你反而做不到欸"},{"start":6210.519,"end":6222.469,"text":"跟你的用水爭議在哪裡我用人民的納稅人大部分百分之百的納稅人去支持你大企業限電限水的時候又他們不停我們所有人都要停這個叫截貧什麼濟負啊就是這種髒水爭議那第二個呢這個虧損啊1044億當中請"},{"start":6230.436,"end":6253.423,"text":"那個經濟部也比照台電、中油請經濟部向中央爭取兩年爭取撥補來解決台水的負債第三個我們進行老舊管線正式編預算來降低百分之二再降低百分之二的這個漏水率部長您針對台水這個用水正義的部分您怎麼回覆以及在撥補的部分您要不要做努力我們會來努力"},{"start":6253.883,"end":6254.924,"text":"部長先回座"},{"start":6295.396,"end":6307.967,"text":"下一位質詢請賴立榮委員好謝謝主席齁主席加油齁來請郭部長請經濟部郭部長部長"},{"start":6314.281,"end":6337.852,"text":"那個我看一下那一天在這個質詢的時候被國民黨籍的副會計委員指控你說你規避財產申報把股份轉給兒子用兒子當人頭部長有這樣的事嗎我一切都是按照這個法律規定在進行那我並不是轉給他"},{"start":6339.926,"end":6351.011,"text":"我是轉給公司轉給一家投資公司所以我想這個可能是他在這部分沒有了解得很清楚對我來講"},{"start":6355.083,"end":6380.511,"text":"我是一切都依法行事但是對不實的指控我會馬上的提出我想有任何不實指控都要表達強烈的抗議跟澄清讓社會知道因為如果一個成功的企業家那進入到政府機關來服務的話特別是進入到來服務的話那如果可以被這樣攻擊跟抹黑的話那未來會更多我們更難找到更多的人願意來為國家服務"},{"start":6382.577,"end":6409.378,"text":"我都堅決的主張不管是從政務官、文官都要極力的捍衛要捍衛這樣子才有辦法讓這個整個更多的人才願意在政府部門服務我相信郭董絕對不缺錢郭部長也絕對不缺錢那你也不會你也不是來這邊賺錢的你是來替國家服務的那至少這樣的必須要讓社會各界都要清楚謝謝委員讓我在這個地方有機會澄清我確實"},{"start":6411.199,"end":6430.241,"text":"來服務這個國人國家我是基於說這個在目前這這麼好的一個經濟情形那過去我所學的跟我我的經驗有辦法幫助這整個的部門來提升所以我才進來公務"},{"start":6431.542,"end":6456.336,"text":"那對我來講我其實這個年紀我也不會再去求什麼更高的這個權位沒有必要我想我都犧牲我自己的收益了嘛我怎麼會在這個以公謀私呢這樣的一個指證我是有辦法接受的所以這個一定要強力的那最後我還是提醒其實部長因為從業界來但是其實在經濟部下有非常多優秀的文官"},{"start":6456.816,"end":6482.384,"text":"非常有經驗非常豐富真的可以多考慮聽他們的一些建議齁搭配你在民間的一些想法輔佐這些民間的這些包括優秀文官的我相信經濟部會有很好的一些氣象希望部長可以多參財我們經濟部確實是有非常多優秀的這些文官那我們當然會共同努力啦為這個將來經濟部的工作我們打造一個更好的願景好 謝謝"},{"start":6483.365,"end":6489.733,"text":"時間有限,我接下來問一下,台積電2奈米在高雄的試作場沒有問題吧?沒有問題那台積電現在美國川普上來之後,他還是會積極爭取,那2奈米會到美國去?"},{"start":6499.886,"end":6516.738,"text":"在一定的時間他也會走向這個因為市場有需求我想經營一個企業我們到海外大概兩個基本的要件第一個就是我們看到那個市場有需求第二個看到那個國家有我們需要的資源"},{"start":6517.818,"end":6547.198,"text":"這個是我們發展這個國際企業最重要的兩個關鍵因素那麼台積電到美國要不要兩奈米的這樣的一個製程過去我想要看美國的市場需求第二個台積電不是去那邊做善事的是他那個公司他是百分之百的子公司基於經營公司我今天在海外經營一個公司一定要能夠賺錢是一定要能夠賺錢所以對他來講沒有把握的製程是不可能往外走"},{"start":6547.438,"end":6555.788,"text":"所以其實到美國這個部分還沒有完全那個但是高雄的這事做事確定的沒問題嘛對不對高雄的現在是蓄勢待發"},{"start":6557.649,"end":6582.206,"text":"跟部長確認不會有變數就好另外我請教一下MVDR到這個人工智慧創新研發中心在高雄的計畫有沒有改變沒有一樣繼續進行到持續來進行會投資243億的一個經費那AMD的部分研發中心在高雄雅灣的部分這個也在進行當中嗎現在AMD的部分就我所了解他是跟那個中山大學"},{"start":6582.927,"end":6598.711,"text":"中央電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":6599.972,"end":6627.306,"text":"這個智慧這一塊投入了相當多的心力我們希望部長全力的來支持讓雅灣有機會南北這一塊的平衡上面能夠做得更好讓雅灣過去從工業的城市有機會轉型成這個AI智慧的一個城市好不好是好謝謝再要請教一下電力的問題其實我們看了一下電力其實政府都做了充分的一些供應那其實我們的策略上大概就是減煤、增氣同時再生能源持續發展同時儲能"},{"start":6628.607,"end":6644.74,"text":"部長是這樣的方向嘛對不對是的所以到2023年我看幾乎所有的這個備轉容量的部分其實都是做一個很好的一個我看甚至有到20幾的部分這應該都是相當好的一個數字狀況了這邊董事長要說明嗎還是"},{"start":6648.319,"end":6649.88,"text":"有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司"},{"start":6669.557,"end":6696.184,"text":"反而很可惜很多國家是羨慕台灣走得這麼快結果我們被某些因素拖住了特別是惡意用地方因素來抹黑攻擊我希望部長都要強力的澄清好不好這絕對是個正確綠電包括這個淨零碳排這一塊絕對都是未來趨勢一定要走的那我們也努力的做了蒸汽的部分也在做了那甚至於除電我們也在做了所以我都希望未來包括"},{"start":6696.904,"end":6718.604,"text":"部長這邊都能夠持續支持讓我們的電力能更加的穩定讓我們的這個國家、經濟、民生都能夠持續的發展好不好好的 謝謝再來我請教要用電卻不發電其實這是我一直長期質疑的問題北部是最明顯北部幾乎是發用他需要的電量是遠遠不足他的發電量"},{"start":6719.841,"end":6749.021,"text":"他連高雄的部分連第7接收站都在做了高雄有40%電力是中送北送都已經在做第7接收站了而北部的部分這些卻不進行我覺得這一塊部長還是要持續的去要求啦齁如果北部的部分在電力上面始終你連電廠也不蓋你連變電所也不蓋那電要從哪裡來你的產業發展哪裡來你要招商的時候你的電哪裡來所以我覺得這個同時間在未來有更多招商還是要持續的講"},{"start":6750.66,"end":6765.622,"text":"南部有電南部超前部署了很多電我們現在還在幹新的燃氣電廠超前部署這是為國家在部署但是也是為南部在部署我們希望在未來有更多招商機會的時候部長應該鼓勵更多企業往南部思考因為電力是充足的"},{"start":6765.822,"end":6786.452,"text":"是謝謝委員我想這個電力充足的地方將是未來廠商前往的地方這個就是大家平常在講的花若盛開蝴蝶自來所以我想我們高雄南部如果他是充分的電力廠商在選擇的時候他不會說要持續的鼓勵跟溝通好不好要請他們要持續往南部去思考不要這個"},{"start":6788.573,"end":6815.654,"text":"投資在北部電區要南部送上來這是毫無道理我們是盡量在北部的這個需求的話我們也是滿足那北部也要請他們要持續思考啦在電力上面的更新有燃氣電廠的更新等等要做包括再生能源包括那些推最後一個問一下漏水率部分其實我之前也關於過這幾年我們的稅收狀況不錯經濟狀況不錯部長要不要考慮跟院長爭取一下來讓那個漏水率來做一個有效的改善"},{"start":6816.354,"end":6816.514,"text":"請回座"},{"start":6842.987,"end":6847.709,"text":"待會我們到政政前委員執行會我們會休息下一位執行請張祺凱委員"},{"start":6872.908,"end":6900.088,"text":"請進部副部長委員好 部長好早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早 早"},{"start":6901.753,"end":6923.46,"text":"不當的錢要去追回來包括要補償的這錢有一個點你這段時間一定要很注意的就是未來還有很多人要求跟臺元要求償因為他去訂了很多的不平等的條約尤其是我自己的記到的那個案場他可能求償臺泥喔是那麼大的公司喔臺泥跟臺元要求償140億喔這幾天你看文森"},{"start":6928.163,"end":6938.994,"text":"這個地方沒有處理好,巴西會處理好,人民的納稅錢141就出去了,所以有不平等合約你現在回去每一項把它拿出來看,趕快去處理不平等合約的事情應該這是歡迎可以決定的事情"},{"start":6944.62,"end":6970.62,"text":"一方面是發言要掛電啦,一方面就是因為台灣去簽了很多不平等的合約嘛,你做部長會被救的,經濟部要去了解好不好?因為他這個很嚴重的事,他連董事會都沒通過喔董事會通過的是A案,他拿一個C案去騙人家,結果現在導致140億的虧損可能出現好啦,另外要跟你講一個案子,部長,你聽不聽說雲報炒股的事情你要跟那個通知金管會嘛對不對?"},{"start":6971.907,"end":6996.369,"text":"經管會後來,炒股的事情,原報啊,這炒股的事情有進度嗎?不是不是不是,這個不是我主管的,這是經管會他們主管的,我這是依法行事嘛,但是這個我所了解,炒股這兩個字啊,對經管會來講這個不是官方語言,所以這就是"},{"start":6997.981,"end":7004.964,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":7026.264,"end":7049.846,"text":"臺南的北門有個案場他後來把這個案場轉給銀豹投資結果啊現在是媒體跟立委都追出來在講說他是不是找了一個紙上的公司叫做縱橫家又掏空了臺元力能1億元這是銀豹喔一樣是銀豹委託付款從上面拿了衣服"},{"start":7050.168,"end":7064.673,"text":"那台研就說去查嘛對不對那裡面有三個非常不合理的這家公司為什麼說他是紙上公司?掏空的台研可能是疑義這家公司跟銀豹同樣在一個地方第一個你如果打電話去他的聯絡人是誰?銀豹的經理"},{"start":7067.694,"end":7084.371,"text":"更離譜的,台言綠能後來發現說這是額外的喔,不給你這個1億啊,不給你這個1億,不給你這個水條他說不給這個1億,出來討債的是誰?銀豹的創辦人張建偉所以現在銀豹不是只有炒股的問題喔,你說的你管的這部分"},{"start":7085.714,"end":7110.468,"text":"去查一下 雲報有沒有掏空 台元力能一一的事情 把它查清楚報告委員 這樣你是不是來檢舉一下你有檢舉 我們才有辦法去去找你說檢舉的這個過程裡面來查沒有人檢舉就沒辦法查我剛剛這個算是檢舉嘛 我可以正式再檢舉一次謝謝我檢舉完你是要查嘛 對不對OK 好 OK 這是一個好 來 我們來談另外 昨天也是 元旭昨天的"},{"start":7111.841,"end":7137.437,"text":"現在啊,台電說它虧損累累,要破產了嘛那所以我們要不要給它一千億的同時現在有一個新的黑洞可能出現了我們的國營事業包括中華電信、中油、中鋼、高鐵要去成立一個塑電平台這有兩個問題啦第一台電本來就有啊,應該台電的塑電平台你就是說嘛,希望這些中小企業可以買到電嘛,買到綠電嘛第一個"},{"start":7139.973,"end":7168.776,"text":"為什麼台電的這個售電平臺沒辦法發揮它的功能這是要檢討的讓它發揮功能這是第一個第二個我們在談的很重要的這裡面有可能牽扯到法律的背信的問題我先提醒喔為什麼是背信你現在講的你現在去找的國營事業這幾家啊都是上市公司喔那他現在去買你現在這個售電平臺裡面如果這些公司這些國營事業又去買電又去買電"},{"start":7170.12,"end":7185.553,"text":"你如果買得太貴,這是不是有背信的問題?對不對?所以我們今天講的很重要。第一,我叫你說很清楚的,你昨天有承諾嘛。我們看一下下一張,很清楚的承諾。不能夠在這個合約裡面去訂什麼。"},{"start":7186.823,"end":7195.037,"text":"我們的售電的賣電公司的這個股東包括中華電信跟中鋼他們電賣不出去叫他們去買這條一定要拿掉對不對?"},{"start":7195.037,"end":7198.803,"text":"是的第二個更重要你一直在說嘛你說你不聽工啦不去買什麼一些電燒整個對不對?"},{"start":7201.269,"end":7219.154,"text":"當然問題是現在就是綠電太貴啊所以台積電沒得買嘛其他人都不買嘛所以才搞到說要成立這家公司老實講有一點是要幫我們的綠電要不然的話綠電現在連銀行都不借錢給他嘛所以他以後有他們銀行願意借錢給他這是第2功能"},{"start":7219.614,"end":7247.828,"text":"可是第一個 它電還是貴的所以第一個我要提醒一個第一個不能買比台積電貴的電 是不是是的 我想謝謝這個委員 未雨綢繆我怎麼跟你一樣 我怎麼想說醫療有什麼樣的情形所以這幾個 scenario 我們都有在考慮那當然有一些不足的 像剛才你在講的買電的義務啊什麼 我這回去會把這個拿掉好 第一個把它拿掉 確定嗎第二個最重要的"},{"start":7248.208,"end":7256.338,"text":"我們做一個怎麼樣確定不會買到太貴的電你先去整合訂單跟需求嗎我今天明確的做一個要求沒有"},{"start":7257.352,"end":7276.483,"text":"沒有拿到企業,沒有很明確已經說人家要買電了,就不能買,就是不會買到太貴的電啊。就是說你不要先買一堆電進來,買了一堆電進來,台電現在就這樣啊,買了一堆太貴,頓過之後買了一堆太貴的,啊賣不出去自己叫中鋼去買嘛,那我們要怎麼預防?回過頭嘛,我們是有訂單,我們才去買電,可不可以重頭?"},{"start":7276.483,"end":7277.464,"text":"可以喔,你看,電頭了嘛對不對?"},{"start":7282.247,"end":7287.709,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":7298.453,"end":7322.523,"text":"的這樣政策所以他當然是比較受這個政策的公共政策的這個影響但是我們那個售電平台那個不是喔那個不是出來做公共政策的我們把它明確化啦你看一下你的文字要先整合訂單跟需求你確定有人要買電的時候你才能夠去把電買進來好不好這個明文規定了好不好昨天我已經訂了第一條了"},{"start":7324.064,"end":7331.692,"text":"不能夠叫中鋼那些賣不出去的電器買,這是已經第一個人確定,就是第二點我可能喔,我可能就叫他退出啦,叫他退出溝通啦你如果這樣說我就叫他退出溝通啊,他想要沒電再來把委員拖就好了"},{"start":7338.479,"end":7343.103,"text":"現在不是你跟我的問題現在是這幾家國營事業130萬的股民我們立場是一樣的我提醒你130個股民有任何一個人就按您控告說"},{"start":7363.7,"end":7373.267,"text":"中小企業信保基金最近有投訴一個很重要的案子你看一下今年6月1號有人去投訴說他被性騷擾信用保證基金信保基金會不會變成信保基金他6月1號"},{"start":7392.369,"end":7412.782,"text":"一個女職員就去跟董事長跟姓寶的董事長就投訴了結果這個董事長做了什麼事情他反而要求沒有處理反而要求主席不要去姓平會的承諾書還要嚴重的他竟然轉送他一個口罩後來給全部的員工送乖乖"},{"start":7414.062,"end":7436.139,"text":"理性員工被性騷擾來投訴了,你是不是要處理?你怎麼會送口罩?送口罩意思是什麼?叫你不要講話?送給所有的員工叫你乖乖,這個消息不能再下去。這個事情很具體的就是,你看他拖了多久,不然你先告訴我。6月1號一直到7月18號,拖了一個半夜。第二更嚴重的,你看一下那個文字。他之前已經做了不當的行為,包括去摸這個女職員的手。"},{"start":7441.867,"end":7453.663,"text":"這個你之前簡訊跟他說什麼,男女授受不親,結果你知道這個主管怎麼回他說什麼授受不親,還沒親到你,還沒親到好,我們來瞭解啦"},{"start":7455.046,"end":7455.266,"text":"部長請回座"},{"start":7490.121,"end":7505.598,"text":"來 下位質詢請鄭正前委員主席好 我想請一下郭部長緊急部 郭部長"},{"start":7513.735,"end":7531.576,"text":"委員長部長好你從企業界轉到公部門當中你也知道其實我對於你有一些期待因為我們希望說能夠把企業界的有一些好的特質然後帶到公部門裡面來不過因為企業界其實它是國際化的然後公部門當中它有一些重要的原則"},{"start":7532.597,"end":7539.522,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":7557.394,"end":7576.833,"text":"熊本就開始有營業據點出來這都沒有問題我覺得您在企業界我覺得跟著原本就是台積電的半導體產業鏈的一環這我們大家都理解我只想說在2024年您接部長之後你提出了一個很重要的政策就是境外關內的部分"},{"start":7579.115,"end":7606.096,"text":"目前確實你也在努力的其實要讓整個半導體的一個供應鏈一起到熊本去有這樣的事情嗎?對不對?報告委員這個是這樣子就是說這個日本熊本的這個公司這個公司事實上有日本的股份在那日本的股份就我所了解他們要求5年以後60%的材料"},{"start":7608.68,"end":7632.428,"text":"通通要跟日本買理解部長我在想說因為這個事情目前是這樣在走我想說整個方向確實也就是如此我在想說因為昨天有其他委員有特別提到說您現在好像變成日本的招商局局長這件事情我待會有時間讓你回應我只是要特別講到一個點就是說當整個台積電"},{"start":7634.295,"end":7648.462,"text":"所帶動的一個半導體的一個供應鏈一起到日本去的時候對台灣來講是不是能夠爭取到更多的一個條件更好的一個條件為台灣爭取更多的一個國家利益"},{"start":7649.542,"end":7675.038,"text":"所以我這邊的一個問題就是說針對這樣子的一件事情那台積電如果說不斷的外移原本我們都認為台積電是護國神山這樣子的一個效力會不會減少如果說剛剛有委員提到說去亞利桑那州的問題台積電不斷的出走之後你覺得對於台灣的護國的一個能量會不會降低"},{"start":7675.878,"end":7695.576,"text":"完全不會降低而且會幫助台積電在未來的這個市場裡面更加的雄偉為什麼說更加的雄偉因為你必須要用很多國外的人才來經營國外的市場因為我們台灣在台灣我們是技術領先"},{"start":7696.917,"end":7713.593,"text":"但是呢在市場上面我們是要服務各個海外的這個市場的客人所以啊以台積電這麼優秀的這樣的一個技術本位啊他為什麼人家會需要他到美國去會到這個歐洲會到日本主要是"},{"start":7714.994,"end":7739.88,"text":"市場的問題嘛市長我理解這部分那我只是要特別提到說因為當台積電尤其很多的一個先進製程也不斷的外移的時候我們對於台積電在台灣的護國這樣的一個效力的時候你剛講說會越來越雄偉其實很多人肯定不認同很多學術專家也不認同那我希望針對這個部分就是你要好好的去"},{"start":7740.64,"end":7765.651,"text":"拿捏這個部分尤其是我剛剛提到2022年一路過來你從企業家轉換成部長這狀態然後同時去做了一個境外關內這樣的一個政策的時候很多人覺得說這是擺明要讓台灣的一個產業打包一起集體外移所以這個部分我們希望經濟部在做這過程當中的時候一定要為台灣爭取到更多的一個資源比方說我們"},{"start":7766.391,"end":7790.627,"text":"整體半導體產業鏈到日本熊本去的時候日本是不是就會更大力的支持我們進到CPTPP類似這樣的一個條件或者是其他另外的一些關稅其他相關的一些投資台灣的一些相關的部分我們希望把台灣半導體外移的動作的時候變成我們跟其他國家談判的籌碼好不好"},{"start":7791.567,"end":7817.642,"text":"確實是如委員你所垂詢的我們所做的部分都是為了台灣的產業更具有世界競爭力所以我們去的時候是以大代小具有競爭力的產業我們把台灣中小企業特別多中小企業要發展海外的事業其實有它的困難經濟部的立場就是幫他們順利的落地第二個幫他們爭取稅金上面的優惠"},{"start":7818.842,"end":7836.239,"text":"這個我們如果不是用經濟部的立場我相信以我們中小企業要跟當地國去談這一種所謂的投資優惠應該是談不了另外一部分我也希望我們這樣去的時候我們也希望日本能夠加強對台灣的一個投資力度在談判當中我們都希望把它談進來好不好部長"},{"start":7836.94,"end":7843.504,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、"},{"start":7860.272,"end":7875.007,"text":"設備都投資完成了可是因為匱限的不足還有其他相關的配套不足的時候沒有辦法併網部長你知道這樣的事情嗎這個是在過去啦我們來了以後啊我們考慮了很多提出很多的解決方案"},{"start":7875.847,"end":7903.117,"text":"這個委員我可以再跟你報告因為我這邊看到至少到目前為止還在再生能源業者等著要併網的件數有1536件其實非常非常的多而且有很多有300億件等超過兩年那你這邊你說你有那個更新的一個數據你在跟我本席這邊做報告那我這邊要特別講一個情況比方說在這樣的一個情況之下我想問一下因為這幾年台電"},{"start":7904.918,"end":7934.06,"text":"除了一直要從政府這邊要錢去增資去撥補到明年預價5000億這是一個很龐大的數字但有2000億還在立法院當中我想要問一下在這麼多錢當中的時候台電也不對在投入他們的一個固定資產的一個建設計畫當中明年有多少金額這個我是不是請可以總經理回答報告委員明年在固定資產"},{"start":7935.625,"end":7959.513,"text":"再加上我們的一般建築的這個部分大概2600億2690億那其中外界資金有多少?外界的資金大概2100億大概2100億我們後來算了一下這麼高的一個狀況的時候光是明年台電要付出的利息就超過320億這個數字是正確的對不對?"},{"start":7963.734,"end":7989.44,"text":"320億有多大?右邊我們看到包括外交部一年的公務預算都還沒有那麼高只有319億司法院、文化部、總統府、速發部、環境部、立法院、監察院、僑委會、經管會這麼多十大的一個單位包含總統府在內一年的預算都沒有320億我們台電光是付利息的支出就要320億那這當中肯定是有很多政策上的"},{"start":7990.12,"end":7994.062,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":8013.46,"end":8040.683,"text":"條長電費你就要下台有這樣的事情嗎部長跟委員報告剛剛您提到那個舉債這麼多主要是因為台電的設備都是大型的投資都是長期的投資理解可是說我們本來想說台電他是一個公營系本來想自己賺錢自己來做投資這是最好的一個狀態可是現在很大部分都按照要由政府這邊來撥補所以我們認為不太適合所以我想針對部長這個部分因為部長也提出了要求"},{"start":8041.403,"end":8066.484,"text":"我們政府能夠撥補台電2000億包括追加預算跟明年的預算然後如果再調高電費你這邊之前有承諾過還是說你這邊有其他的說法跟看法簡單回應一下好不好部長報告2000億是補那個名稱我知道讓部長回答好不好總經理謝謝報告委員我在之前很久以前我曾經有這樣說過了是"},{"start":8067.865,"end":8069.947,"text":"現在休息6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘"},{"start":8590.965,"end":8604.091,"text":"好,請列席,關於人請回座好,我們現在繼續開會,下位置請張家俊委員還沒還沒還沒"},{"start":8621.038,"end":8644.246,"text":"主席我想請郭部長請經濟部郭部長部長您是產業經濟專家那目前呢大家百姓最擔心的就是明年的景氣到底明年的景氣好不好您可不可以給我們做一個預估呢好的謝謝委員我想這個是一個很好的一個推詢"},{"start":8645.786,"end":8658.132,"text":"明年的景氣以目前這個世界的變異明年因為美國的這個川普總統他上任1月15號上任以後我相信這個世界會有很大的改變"},{"start":8659.992,"end":8676.72,"text":"從過去拜登總統聯防的概念走向川普總統最重要的就是MAGA讓美國再世偉大這樣的想法美國再世偉大採用的方法就是加關稅"},{"start":8678.331,"end":8686.799,"text":"降低國內的這個企業經營的設計﹖但這就是大家都擔心的啊,擔心這個假設加關稅貿易戰會不會對台灣的這個未來經濟有很大的影響呢?"},{"start":8692.082,"end":8715.097,"text":"我在過去我來這個政府以後我曾經提出一個境外關內的這樣的一個概念我們主要就是幫助這個台灣的企業到海外去落地來成長那麼我們在落地成長現在看起來如果到美國去生產根據美國的市場需求"},{"start":8716.243,"end":8731.77,"text":"我們去美國生產這個對我們台灣來講是一種鼓勵第二個這裡面有一個變數關係就是美中的這個貿易對抗中國現在我們看到很多的這個討論特別是這個川普總統對中國的這種"},{"start":8735.453,"end":8753.512,"text":"這種壓制,你看看這一次川普總統旁邊的包括他的國務卿包括他國防部長包括他的這個白宮裡面的這個他的這個最親近的這個夥伴他的這個這一些人通通是對中國是比較鷹派的"},{"start":8756.912,"end":8783.678,"text":"就是擔心就還是擔心啦齁當然我一聽部長這樣講我有信心因為畢竟主政者非常了解國家的脈動怎麼樣跟國際接軌那這個是一個好事但是呢普遍的這民間還是會擔心說哇到底這個美中貿易戰我們夾在中間會不會被壓扁啊然後會不會就是造成說我們會越來越小啊"},{"start":8784.358,"end":8802.226,"text":"這是平均大家都疑慮的所以是不是部長可以解決我們的疑慮報告委員我們現在是這樣就是幫助在台商在中國的台商因為現在如果川普真正的落實他對中國課稅60%的話那麼這個對台商來講這個影響會很大"},{"start":8807.717,"end":8821.493,"text":"所以他們必須轉移陣地?他們必須要轉進到這個美國啊那如果他們反台會不會更好呢?反台的話我們這樣子我們在看啊因為我們現在畢竟少子化所以對這個人員的"},{"start":8822.895,"end":8847.556,"text":"人力可能會沒有辦法滿足當初他們離開台灣到這個中國的這樣的一個誘因所以我們會協助他們轉進到這個另外一個所以這個已經有具體的計畫是哪一個單位在協助規劃嗎現在沒有因為我們以前也沒有想到說會有這樣的一個情形不過我們現在那大概會責成什麼單位來協助"},{"start":8850.393,"end":8855.798,"text":"我們裡面有很多,我們有智庫啊,我們經濟部大概有5個智庫。 是,到時候是這個中小企業處呢,還是產業發展,產業發展署啊,還是什麼單位會來負責呢?報告委員,我們現在是這樣,就是說由智庫來評論,由智庫來收集資料,"},{"start":8873.234,"end":8899.339,"text":"然後做出一個建議然後我們再來看是哪一個單位負責哪一個群哪一個產業那由這個負責的這個署或者是處來好那這個就要拜託部長專心的用心的用力的把它做好規劃因為這個會影響台灣未來的產業發展甚至人民的生活那接下來講到人民的生活我就想要問一下部長"},{"start":8900.88,"end":8908.607,"text":"剛剛每一位委員都問到撥補這個未來兩千億不要算之前撥補的這個三千億了這樣加加起來三年五千億這個部長你怎麼看現在繼續撥補嗎?您支持這個撥補嗎?我們希望委員能夠支持我們這個撥補"},{"start":8919.537,"end":8919.557,"text":"部長"},{"start":8937.714,"end":8940.777,"text":"可是台電最近4個月因為漲建價的關係已經開始有盈餘了7月賺了73億8月盈餘129億9月盈餘122億"},{"start":8952.605,"end":8954.425,"text":"我們不只漲了電價然後這個國際的這個天然氣價格還已經回到了二屋占錢的水平了那已經賺錢了又漲了電價為什麼還一定要撥補呢報告委員這個7月8月那個時候是夏季電價"},{"start":8972.401,"end":8978.663,"text":"那所以呢我現在的理解是為什麼我想要請教一下每一個人都提醒你們說這個能源配比要調整你們有調整嗎能源配比我有啊我們現在就是你們的能源配比完全都沒有考慮核電啊完全沒有考慮核電怎麼有辦法把這個電價降下來嗎或者說"},{"start":8997.248,"end":9005.274,"text":"部長您今天有辦法在這裡保證說這2000億撥補給你之後明年後年都不漲電價報告委員這個漲不漲電價不是經濟部長可以決定的我知道但你也要你主管機關你這個全國產業經濟的主管機關你也要有主張呀你就是明年後年都都補我1000億的話"},{"start":9022.848,"end":9045.496,"text":"然後再來我沒有辦法我們現在只講到明年的一千億你連後年的一千億都講出來了那就是意思說每年都要補台電一千億喔不是 報告委員因為那個三千多億的這個負債是在過去兩年因為COVID-19而造成那未來是什麼原因未來為什麼還會有一千億是什麼原因我現在是補過去的虧損"},{"start":9046.476,"end":9049.018,"text":"你已經漲了店價我們還要補過去的虧損台電沒有辦法自己想說怎麼賺錢怎麼創造收益嗎?"},{"start":9058.086,"end":9063.549,"text":"有漲 有漲一波有漲一波 第二次沒有漲 第一次有漲你問總經理 對不對 我現在沒有要問你所以我必須要講 部長我們不斷地拿人民的納稅錢去補貼台電是沒有辦法解決根本的問題的我們一定要有一個長期的財務規劃長期的這樣子的計畫否則你每年一直靠撥補 台電那就擺爛了"},{"start":9088.001,"end":9088.261,"text":"我是因為說我們一共還"},{"start":9105.17,"end":9121.514,"text":"還缺3000多億之前虧損所以你計畫他所有的虧損都要用人民的荷包來抹平的意思嗎不是因為造成這個虧損是因為我們動漲的這個價格但你們已經再漲了兩次啊所以你預計如果不撥補明年還要漲是嗎我們還"},{"start":9123.575,"end":9128.818,"text":"這個漲價不是我決定,漲價是這個價格還有我必須要講一下,就是我們雲林縣斗六的長治久安公園是園館局的地,但現在雜草叢生、蛇鼠橫行然後地方治安產生問題部長,我昨天親自去了這個"},{"start":9145.606,"end":9149.048,"text":"服務中心服務中心全部擺爛他說勤勞勤勞說只要縣府或公所願意接管我們再撥錢給他們來來整理這個是你們經濟部應該有的態度嗎?你們的產業去到了地方難道不應該把環境整理乾淨嗎?"},{"start":9164.895,"end":9185.211,"text":"我們回去瞭解一下好不好不是不只是瞭解您瞭解之後您還要立起來要告訴他說這是要對居民友善嘛怎麼可以你們的產業去到那裡然後把地方弄得一團亂也不願意整理還請呢縣府跟市公所一定要接管好不好這一點拜託部長是謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":9190.786,"end":9203.54,"text":"負負大家的期待下一位質詢請鄭天才委員"},{"start":9216.544,"end":9219.88,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長請經濟部顧部長"},{"start":9227.413,"end":9249.999,"text":"委員長首先還是要先謝謝這個台電跟自來水公司這段時間這個11月還有這個接連而來的颱風所以在康瑞颱風這個包括天瑞這個天兔尤其是康瑞颱風造成的"},{"start":9251.349,"end":9272.439,"text":"臺灣地區,尤其是花東,很多的電還有水,都是自來水公司跟台電,非常辛苦的在一起附電附水。我們看今年的,首先也要謝謝經濟部再次的提報,"},{"start":9274.232,"end":9285.678,"text":"這個無自來水第7供水改善計畫第5期這個在11月18號行政院已經核定了這個106億的一個明年開始的這個第5期計畫跟部長說明過去這個因為無自來水計畫的經費有限"},{"start":9298.194,"end":9324.267,"text":"所以每一次很多的部落或是很多的社區、很多的這個村裡需要這個五自來水要做這個沿管過去它有一個每戶成本的上限每戶成本的上限這個以這個第4期計畫來講就是60萬元但每一次都會做一個不同的調整"},{"start":9325.902,"end":9340.456,"text":"在毛自國當行政院院長的時候我特別就質詢協調就希望說部落因為每次原住民的部落因為人附屬少附屬少 單位成本就比較高"},{"start":9341.357,"end":9367.437,"text":"就很難去跟一般的村里去做比較所以當初我是要求把這個部落另外去算一定的比例給部落部落另外算所以一直現在實施到現在是有這樣的一個狀況所以原住民部落就是另外去按照一定的比例然後去以這個上限會比較公平"},{"start":9368.197,"end":9387.61,"text":"那這次這個第5期有做更好的一個規劃所以持續的去來去辦理所以這個部分那因為花蓮台東又很特殊因為那個原住民的人口最多部落也最多所以本席當時這個因應0918的地震的時候"},{"start":9394.008,"end":9411.927,"text":"就請經濟部提報到這個國發會因為有花東基金所以超過60萬以上的就用花東基金這樣的話能夠去共同的去加速但是因為這段時間因為這個是從112年到今年113年"},{"start":9417.205,"end":9431.433,"text":"所以在這樣一個兩年的時間當然也很長促也很大這個自來水公司也積極的在處理當然地方政府包括這個相關的這些用地的的取得也都有問題所以這個部分"},{"start":9432.713,"end":9451.75,"text":"這個要請自來水公司去說明一下這個我們行政院112年3月15號合訂這個自來水沿管工程的計畫包含這個花東基金投入這個7109萬9千元無自來水計畫投入7400萬1千元總共1億4510萬元"},{"start":9460.98,"end":9464.281,"text":"這個目前的一個進度如何?"},{"start":9464.281,"end":9481.686,"text":"這個是不是請自來水公司還是部長?謝謝委員的一個指教感謝委員一直在為花東地區的這些燕鄉部落在爭取一些改善自來水的案件"},{"start":9485,"end":9510.886,"text":"利用發動基金來協助這些部落我們總共有13個案子那到目前我們已經完成了有6個案6個案件已經完成了那還有7個案現在在執行中在執行中我們預計在今年底會再完成完成3件那剩下4件會在明年中會全部完成"},{"start":9513.905,"end":9526.586,"text":"還沒有完成主要的原因是什麼有一件事因為米贊部落那邊是今年0403的影響所以我們這個廠商的施工量能有稍微"},{"start":9527.082,"end":9551.386,"text":"所以這一件工程會延到明年的6月才完成那另外有三件的案件是我們在今年底我們才成立預算是用結一款就之前完工的這些的結款來偵辦的三件工程那我們今年底會再成立預算那明年會把它完成"},{"start":9552.738,"end":9569.275,"text":"這個部分這個有需要去可以比較快的地方可以隨時可以去做調整所以有時候像這個我們看這個像光復鄉大興村"},{"start":9572.089,"end":9584.084,"text":"這個整個村然後相關的這些用地企得像那個台鐵就比較容易嘛國產署的也容易嘛所以這個部分就可以做一些滾動的檢討來調整嘛"},{"start":9587.989,"end":9608.729,"text":"是,謝謝委員的一個協助之道,這個我們今年底關乎鄉這個案子今年底會來完工?對,這個部分因為它是一個比較整個村裡面,而且過去曾經發生土石流的地方這段時間都還好啦,所以這個部分這個用水的部分既然"},{"start":9609.689,"end":9626.493,"text":"這個村有需要做這個調整所以這個部分...報告委員水利署這邊再補充說明一下在我們這個剛合訂的第5期計畫裡面其中有3億元花東基金也是按照委員的意見我們將來會撥補這個以後100億以上的錢會按照委員意見來做這個"},{"start":9633.715,"end":9653.342,"text":"現在就是自來水公司跟地方政府要共同的去努力不然好不容易有這樣的一個經費所以這個部分要加油最後這個我還是要去強調"},{"start":9655.943,"end":9683.334,"text":"這個其他的先回座部長還是要強調你是從企業界企業界來怎麼樣去全盤的了解這個這個電的部分電的部分從過去的合適2000多億其實將近3000億了如果再加上這個"},{"start":9685.284,"end":9707.309,"text":"維護的現在封存了但是還是要每年要維護所以要請同仁提供給你第一個合適到底已經花了多少錢繼續要花多少錢第二這個台電的撥補台電的撥補4000多億囉你說未來還要加上什麼呢"},{"start":9714.909,"end":9732.917,"text":"比較要去計算的就是綠能的部分綠能的部分從能源署其他的署撥到要花那個錢變成多少錢然後還要買啊台電還要跟他買啊買電啊對不對這個部分"},{"start":9736.201,"end":9737.462,"text":"消費諮詢請蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":9765.353,"end":9792.707,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們是有請經濟部郭部長請經濟部郭部長委員長 部長部長 我們從最近的一些新聞包括說我們看到美國拜登有核准要給台積電一些補貼那這個補貼當然是希望台積電到美國設廠"},{"start":9793.928,"end":9811.603,"text":"那他們有他們的一個需求但是我們從日本那德國跟美國的一個經驗來說事實上他們都很積極的要把台積電這麼一家國際企業然後希望在他們的國內有生產的行為所以台灣其實真的是有台積電真的是很棒"},{"start":9812.564,"end":9821.514,"text":"這真的是我們台灣的護國神山所以同樣看到日本、德國、美國他們對台積電這樣大力的一個拉攏我們當然要想辦法讓台積電永遠的就是在我們台灣就是在這裡持續的一個發展"},{"start":9829.904,"end":9847.153,"text":"那這個持續的發展我們除了有一些法令的禁止說這部分如果沒有你們同意是不可以去是不可以去可是我覺得我們相對應的我們也是要釋出台灣可以做的一些作為讓台積電覺得在台灣那還是有在我們自己股內的溫暖我指的這一些就是說我們知道現在整個台積電他的一些"},{"start":9858.339,"end":9876.957,"text":"一些幾奈米幾奈米大概在南科未來在高雄也有一些部署那如果南科跟高雄有這樣的一個晶圓的一個生產那嘉義未來是一個COAS就是台積電封裝的一個先進封裝的一個基地好那這樣的一個基地是不是未來"},{"start":9878.178,"end":9903.192,"text":"因為這個部長也許你比較專業我直接在這邊問這是我不知道的就是說未來南科所發展所生產的一些晶圓這些晶片就是會送到嘉義然後來做先進封裝他會有這樣的一個運輸的過程嗎?會有這樣的運輸的過程那是差不多多少比例會這樣的運輸勒?"},{"start":9905.197,"end":9925.848,"text":"這個有辦法統計還是不確定有可能到別的地方要看是什麼樣的商品想像上是這樣但是有一個部分到嘉義是做COAS那有一部分可能會到高雄高雄的是月光可能這個產品不同的封裝不同的產品進入不同的封裝我想像上大概是這樣"},{"start":9926.428,"end":9942.187,"text":"但是會到嘉義至少是一個需要技術上去做先進封窗就會到COWAS就會到嘉義所以部長就來了啊所以我覺得我們台灣人做的是什麼把交通問題再把它改善"},{"start":9943.312,"end":9958.811,"text":"所以這個雖然這是交通部的問題可是站在整個產業面因為你是經濟部長嘛對你應該要站在說這個產業好因為他們有一個技術上的需求所以我們應該進一步的去思考如果我們可以要求"},{"start":9959.592,"end":9982.38,"text":"所有的類似這樣的產業園區不管它是屬於國科會所管理的科學園區或者是我們經濟部所管轄的產業園區我們如果可以把嘉義、高雄、台南從這樣的一個園區整個有一個交通的大串聯起來比方說現在高雄跟台南推動的S郎帶"},{"start":9983.3,"end":10000.454,"text":"如果S狼帶可以再延伸到嘉義然後整個串聯起來是不是對於這樣整個晶圓他們未來的運輸成本運輸的時間可以大幅的下降這樣對於台積電他們整個企業的一個發展又是更好的一個方向"},{"start":10000.894,"end":10022.368,"text":"是的,就整個產業來講,就像剛才這個委員所垂詢的,大軍未至,糧草先行。所以道路周遭的環境的形成是非常非常的重要。所以您剛才所垂詢的部分,我們是充分的參考。"},{"start":10023.147,"end":10043.004,"text":"對我覺得就是說因為部長因為你站在說這個整個這個產業鏈嘛那台積電他當然扮演的已經是台灣的整個產業的一個龍頭那這個龍頭產業要讓他怎麼造成一個產業的群聚有台積電的地方自然他的上下游產業大家自然來群聚所以"},{"start":10043.904,"end":10051.53,"text":"除了科學園區之外臨近的產業園區就像嘉義我們的嘉科旁邊就有所謂的馬籌後園區那馬籌後園區呢他現在有一個45公頃就是我們過去講的叫做要把它規劃叫園中園"},{"start":10059.056,"end":10069.105,"text":"那我們希望這裡就是一個半導體的一個材料的一個供應鏈所以我們希望說這些材料商就大家都要來買到好這裡那我們這裡也準備最好的一個環境那我們也多次的跟我們產業園區署這邊希望他們趕快來把這個招商的後續的一個程序趕快來推動我想要請教一下部長"},{"start":10083.618,"end":10112.01,"text":"那這個遭傷的行為你們在可以在什麼時候可以來開始來這個馬籌厚後期的一個遭傷現在我想我還沒有收到這個原管局的這樣的一個報告那我回去以後會來了解一下因為畢竟這個COAS在嘉義要設那麼多廠的話那馬籌厚就像您剛剛所垂詢的它自然而然"},{"start":10113.471,"end":10128.704,"text":"這個供應商會接近它,因為這個logistic,這個搬運各方面這個距離越短越安全,成本越低。對啊,所以馬草後加加克這麼快嘛,對不對?這應該是沒問題啦,這花若盛開蝴蝶自來。"},{"start":10129.344,"end":10151.77,"text":"發落盛開的蝴蝶自來,不然我們會緊嗎?我會覺得你頂屬早一點的嘛,就是說整個也很好,因為那100坪齁,它是台糖齁,它是台糖分配的,那台糖是沒有能力去接觸到這些廠商的。我們會整體跟國客會一起來理會。對,因為你們經濟部才有辦法去把那些廠商要引來,然後告知這些廠商說未來,"},{"start":10153.03,"end":10168.662,"text":"包括說台積電在於加科的布局所以如果這些供應鏈可以到馬籌後馬籌後確實有這樣理想的一個場地所以我想這要快報告委員這都是國發會在經歷經濟部是這間單位所以我會跟那個國發會留守會我來跟他報告"},{"start":10173.905,"end":10196.712,"text":"說有委員這樣的建議那我們是不是把這個速度稍微拉高一點除了國發會之外我們的產業園區署也是因為我們馬超是產業園區署這邊未來要是是是他要來執行的啦所以我想他的腳步還要快的那是真的有差好不好好那第二個就是說我們知道說這個整個綠能的一個發展啦齁"},{"start":10197.572,"end":10225.828,"text":"那綠能的發展當然會涉及到說包括我們在陸域風機已經10年就有一個汰換所以未來好像會有超過900隻的葉片它就會變得需要被汰換那除了這個葉片需要被汰換之外事實上我也很好奇因為我們光電已經推動了已經好幾已經都10幾年了啦所以光電也開始會進入所謂光電版的汰換期了"},{"start":10226.668,"end":10240.971,"text":"那我想要請教的就是說就於這樣一些風電或者是光電他們這一些零件或者是光電板的汰換或者是他們需要去化不要讓他們進一步變成這個廢棄物變成造成污染的廢棄物那我們現在經濟部有做好這些規劃嗎?"},{"start":10250.673,"end":10272.901,"text":"報告委員我們規劃都有啦那個光電的部分比較沒有問題這個風電的部分也是在進行中我想這個3R Reduce Recycle跟Reuse都是我們經濟部在處理的部分事實上光電的部分我有一個比較好奇啦我好奇的就是說如果光電的這個契約已經到了那你們是希望他要更新設備"},{"start":10274.847,"end":10289.592,"text":"還是他可以直接延長契約?你們希望的方向是怎樣?能源署可不可以說明一下?跟台電或是業者另外有簽約是他民事上的問題"},{"start":10292.113,"end":10314.027,"text":"大方向,我說光電如果到齊了,好,它如果是20年嘛,那20年到了後,他們是要更新光電板,因為現在光電板的技術是越來越好嘛,對不對?所以你們是會要求他更新,還是說你舊的沒關係,反正你就繼續循環?我們當然希望他能夠更新,因為更新的話也許面積可以縮小,發電量不會變,或者是同樣的面積發電量可以增加。"},{"start":10321.712,"end":10350.163,"text":"看他們自己民間契約怎麼走,這樣嗎?我們當然會盡可能協助他們,就是說...協助喔?我根本已經熟客看過了啦!你們需要政策手段,還是說你們只是站在輔導、鼓勵,這個是不一樣的喔!謝謝委員!好,謝謝!謝謝財議委員!部長回座!部長,如果花落不開,那狐狸會去哪裡?為了花落不開,那狐狸就不來了?不來了!"},{"start":10364.564,"end":10386.118,"text":"來OK好下一個我們請邱志偉委員質詢好謝謝主席要請郭部長請部長台電曾總經理曾董事長然後台水李董事長郭部長、曾董事長、李董事長"},{"start":10387.762,"end":10416.025,"text":"委員長這個部長早辛苦了齁我們先看台點那個台水的漏水率雖然說昨天有下降我們編了兩期阿現在114年開始推動新一期的降低漏水率計畫我們編的編的大概是72億計畫是114年到121年齁那114年要降到11.55%好如果這72億執行7年你到121年的時候你漏水率會降到多少"},{"start":10418.866,"end":10424.188,"text":"報告委員那個114年是72億我們到121年我們整體的計畫總金額是808億808億那是單一年度的預算那你111年要變到800億嘛對不對到121年800億你會降到多少9.9%、9.77%"},{"start":10443.274,"end":10467.775,"text":"才11.55經過7年在9.77合共800億那你上一屆上一期102到1113這花多少錢花了加1030億1030億你們效能可要提高啦你看你將一年的漏水率110年來看相當於全國人口的62天的民生用水量所以你這個"},{"start":10469.232,"end":10497.911,"text":"漏水率的降低你應該要設定更好的標準更嚴格的標準你剛剛誤以他如果我給你800億你這樣5以下我們可以接受好不好我們來努力跟委員報告現在我們下一階段的那個漏水率現在已經降到大概12.5嘛12%以下那越降越低的話每1%的話要投入的金額是要越高的"},{"start":10499.731,"end":10513.147,"text":"但是你總體漏水率我希望說你的效能能夠更好一點畢竟這個800億的預算不算少另外你們這個新預的部分因為你們自有水量自有水來自於這個水庫比較多對不對"},{"start":10514.554,"end":10519.116,"text":"有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":10533.441,"end":10554.887,"text":"跟委員報告我們自有水源比例會下降的原因因為是營商地區有地層下限一個防治的方案那減沖地下水這些地下水原先都是我們自有水源你要跟台水台水要跟另外一家公司買嘛北水處我們因為水情如果不佳的話我們要跟北水處那水價長期一國兩制我想這個部分"},{"start":10558.849,"end":10569.439,"text":"這個我們有跟北水處也協調多次了啦,那水利署這邊也有協助來跟北水...未來朝向水價是不是能夠統一?這個部長,這個專注一個方向來努力"},{"start":10574.114,"end":10590.692,"text":"水價的部分我想未來能不能夠調整是這個審議委員會的事我不是說水價調整啦就是說你北水處跟台水它的水價能不能統一啦主管機構不一樣齊建副嘛 但是你們可以去協調啊"},{"start":10594.143,"end":10614.783,"text":"亞航總裁楊金榮說,川普上任之後,他會建議政府加強對美國的投資跟採購。投資項目當然,川普需要的就是半導體,所以是先進製程的部分。當然,我們採購的部分,除了農產品還有其他的部分,我想問的是天然氣的來源。"},{"start":10616.425,"end":10639.684,"text":"天然氣主要的這個起源國大概是澳洲最多大概4成多然後卡達大概也3成多以前有俄羅斯現在俄羅斯當然不行但美國還是停留在10%未來有沒有可能對美國的天然氣採購能夠再增加這部分這個台電有沒有負案我想策略上應該會這樣子因為美國這個目的主要就是要打壓這個俄羅斯"},{"start":10641.024,"end":10663.479,"text":"是阿 阿俄羅斯現在分散到其他的國家但是卻沒有分到美國所以我們對美國天然氣的採購我希望說是不是在未來能夠我們來增加對美國的這個採購另外你這個台電的預算的補助獎補助或者投資阿你看大家都問說過去三年度大概投了五千億阿我是怕未來會不會成為常態化"},{"start":10665.336,"end":10679.049,"text":"你要因為能源成本高升不降然後又有政策的目的這個部分你這種結構你成本沒有辦法降然後又有政策的目的要去達成長年性的補貼會變成一個常態化我很擔心這樣子"},{"start":10683.687,"end":10707.193,"text":"這會不會發生呢?我們來我們基於我們在衡量這個整個台電的這個財務結構我們發現這個材料的成本影響也很大第二個這個動漲然後影響這個公司營運這個也很大我們會就這個公司為什麼會造成虧損做深入的資料解那麼針對這個部分我們來改善我認為啦這個"},{"start":10709.633,"end":10731.259,"text":"現在如果這個2000億可以撥補進來的話那對我們來改善財務我們現在的財務光是利息就300多億我擔心說未來每年都變常態性的都要憋1000億我是擔心這種狀況如果結構沒有調整的話昨天我請教您中油亞林最低價你說這個鬆綁這個鬆綁是誰要去處理的亞林最低價這個可能是要"},{"start":10738.32,"end":10762.623,"text":"亞林最低價是當初什麼107年制定2007年制定的對這個要鬆綁要如何鬆綁呢現在我們希望能夠鬆綁要如何鬆綁你們希望鬆綁要如何鬆綁那個是因為油價公司本來是中油公司自己決定的事項所以中油公司他可以自己決定但是他因為因為這個都亞林最低價的這個約束是來自哪裡"},{"start":10763.908,"end":10788.6,"text":"就是在有限公司上面那這個部分是誰可以去調整?經濟部能不能調整?經濟部能不能調整?還是要涉及修法?這沒有涉及修法但你經濟部可以去調整阿是你現在亞銀最低價因為韓國、日本都受到政府補貼我們他們有政府補貼我們還是維持最低價那當然對中油不公平阿所以如果這個部分要調整的話經濟部會跟中油公司我們一塊討論"},{"start":10789.44,"end":10814.755,"text":"那因為這個還有涉及到穩定就是物價各方面的考量所以我們會這個我們會跟中國公司我們油價在雅林是一直最低價那他們也有其他政府的補貼我們沒有政府補貼特別是中油所以這不會盡快去思考如何把這個雅林最低價鬆綁讓這個油價能夠回歸到市場比較市場機制又能夠兼顧這個不要造成這個通貨膨脹或者民生物價上漲"},{"start":10815.976,"end":10843.572,"text":"我們會內部討論完以後跟院裡面報告然後這個 儘快去 那麼三個月之內提出一個檢討另外這個韓電 我們有台電 那韓國也有韓電嘛韓電阿 它的這個 核能發電佔了三成左右韓國有人說阿 有人有一些小朋友說 我用核電用核電發電的話 我的這個電價會下降 是迷思欸"},{"start":10846.504,"end":10870.62,"text":"韓電燒錢比我們燒得更嚴重,它虧損比我們還多,它的核能佔了三成,我們目前只有6.3%,對不對?所以核能不是造成能源、能夠、電能夠下降的一個因素嘛。所以大家都很擔心,這個迷思說,哇,這個核電,我發展核電會讓能源的成本降低。"},{"start":10874.628,"end":10886.534,"text":"韓國的經驗要讓大家知道韓國百分之三十都是恆隆發電可是它虧損還比台灣更嚴重是的我時間到了我要做一個榜樣謝謝委員好 謝謝邱委員"},{"start":10901.018,"end":10922.578,"text":"好 謝謝下一位質詢請陳昌明委員謝謝召委首先有請郭部長還有水利市林沐市長還有自來水公司的李董事長"},{"start":10925.876,"end":10952.629,"text":"施理署副署長柏中啊我剛才聽到很奇怪我們的執政黨內越來越不掌勁人家是比高帶一間房子要賺錢我們是代表說比一個公我們比什麼公比較會賠錢我講這個就你思維有不同的我希望不要沉迷這樣什麼政策都要去辯護對就是對錯就是錯我們比高要賺錢"},{"start":10955.811,"end":10981.062,"text":"不要跟韓國跟日本來比,比虧錢了,那說起來很小事。好嗎?第二點,我今天怎麼特別請水利市跟自來水的公司,因為自來水在地方上是名稱非常重要,這幾年我非常深深地感受水利市跟自來水公司在苗栗縣這樣遠遠地一直鋪,"},{"start":10983.283,"end":11001.603,"text":"本來有一個鄉鎮59%現在到85%再繼續以下90%讓我覺得很有面子我特地來感謝他們這兩個單位第一我送給水利署、天花府、水庫趕快跟安排、我會安排跟我們縣長來討論如何要來籌建這個"},{"start":11005.453,"end":11016.729,"text":"今天我要跟部長推自來水公司討個人情自來水公司目前虧損171億負債EAA去借錢債務逾一個1300多億你都沒給錢花"},{"start":11022.156,"end":11048.934,"text":"所謂自來水公司都是很可憐的,人家就又不能請議員還要替人家撐傘,這可憐在哪裡呢?沒有水就說自來水要漲,有這多半都忘了,像最近颱風來了水庫滿滿的大家忘了但是你做保證,你說你最擅長財務的管理,希望給自來水公司多多的幫忙一下"},{"start":11050.172,"end":11066.637,"text":"他的理涉金入占18點多餘,占他成本的5.6,我看這有哪有國家來補貼啦,更重要讓自來水股能呼吸一下,你看完嗎?我來請述啦齁,我來請述一點我相信你的領導,你現在紅人,第一個"},{"start":11072.662,"end":11095.447,"text":"我經常在質詢我是清清代過,我是說你要聽我的意思我堅持反對中鋼這綠電買賣的售價平台,按照我反對我們的離岸風力的國產化,南北各一家北的是四季鋼,南的是中鋼,這公司很大很偉大"},{"start":11097.83,"end":11111.714,"text":"但是投資了64億,虧損到一毛錢沒有,沒有自我檢討,沒有自我講安卓人的成功,一本錢那抽,那抽不成功,十幾天湊起來做,做到紅紅紅紅。"},{"start":11114.435,"end":11131.046,"text":"我是有一點來看看既然中鋼營對綠電沒有貢獻硬的不行你又來吃軟的綠電品牌我間接反對這個不能只以擔當你可以選別給台電台電現在是再多不醜萬億虧損不差那一點點"},{"start":11133.507,"end":11157.835,"text":"如果賺錢可以彌補虧損對不對?你不知道算那堆斷了沒來行的中鋼那些來的啊?你曉得嗎?60幾億虧損他不會投資我感覺這很悲哀的事情尤其光電都在南部產生一個弊端中鋼已經被南部的私立把持連台電都不敢講話我一把你斷了這樣知道嗎?了解啊 再來"},{"start":11162.216,"end":11187.952,"text":"你說花絡剩下與蝴蝶自來我現在拿一個資料去看本來就要問了我不知道現在蘋果把台灣生產線移到印度英偉達把高端的晶片準備給韓國高通高端的機師也移到日本波音在台灣做一些零件全部"},{"start":11189.554,"end":11205.229,"text":"把他移出去。再來,我們的星巴克在台灣恍恍惚惚,現在總部要遷到印尼。再來,肯達基的物流中心在台灣,現在移到菲律賓澳。"},{"start":11206.81,"end":11226.485,"text":"特斯拉、馬斯克、太空訓練說臺灣的工廠都要到泰國、越南設一家分工廠,把它移出去。電裝全部延發在臺灣全部停止了。"},{"start":11227.302,"end":11248.98,"text":"所以說,如果你盛開這些為什麼要撤離國情?我告訴你,我記得我看一個資料,你說台積電的兩難民絕對不會移出去,你不還為難?然而這個政府把台積電當作禮物到處送,你講是擴大雄偉的實力,台積電真的很不想吃氣啊!"},{"start":11249.801,"end":11261.309,"text":"那是可憐啦!沒辦法啦!我們在別人的菜點那地方抬!講得最是一套喔!確確實實的內幕你最清楚!"},{"start":11262.079,"end":11289.685,"text":"那這裡面是代表發作、生開那些大公司應該要來怎麼只有我們的台積電把他外送出去我感覺你這個要檢討啦這兩件生存意義我們自己寧願曉得現在都大家不敢講未來這是戰爭的一個前兆你們都在暴露你們的執政黨到時候有人留在台灣嗎我跟你講這個叫做掏空台灣"},{"start":11292.114,"end":11297.028,"text":"一點有時候講起來又不能講明但是都要說好聽的"},{"start":11298.732,"end":11326.07,"text":"好不好,這點我希望大家應該很感受很深啦。您做兄弟倆,學到你知道啦。我們的大本營是富國深山,優惠四分五裂,絕對的。你的技術,連商業機密都要叫你交出來,你有什麼保障?再來,現在要說你的注意點。你手下的四家大公司,台電、中油、台水、台糖,"},{"start":11327.483,"end":11340.789,"text":"我看這個領事我看起來實在講彼一時的此一時的昨非今是今是昨非,策政的人要有擔當。我不知道你有擔當沒有擔當,你看起來很有擔當,這個趨勢都很好地,還有這個經驗地。"},{"start":11346.618,"end":11348.341,"text":"那為什麽要跟你談這個問題呢?馬英九前總統,郵件酸長,後屆執政黨首席他在民國97年5月,郵價調漲12%"},{"start":11359.554,"end":11362.418,"text":"民國97年7月油價再調漲4%電價調漲12%在民國101年4月油價漲10.7%電價漲29.5%因為現在實在讓民進黨很糟蹋"},{"start":11378.118,"end":11379.179,"text":"從97年101年拖到100年"},{"start":11399.636,"end":11423.664,"text":"一時連開始轉虧當然你有說新冠疫情當然你有說是兩岳的戰爭我現在上來聽看你有擔當嗎?看你有起票嗎?看你有真實做事嗎?台電很可憐的公司政策的左馬生你知道他到現在虧損一兆嗎?如果這兩千億撥給他"},{"start":11426.84,"end":11440.402,"text":"一共將金融撥走了6600億它在114年的quotient還繼續有3000億所以它是quotient的一兆中油將近4000億的quotient"},{"start":11442.915,"end":11458.872,"text":"自來水公司170億虧損,台糖公司只有賣土地、租土地賺錢。看你外國,你這個尖閣從業小公司做到這麼成功,你說財務你做了該來行,你有什麼辦法這樣來改過這問題嗎?我講得很實際喔。"},{"start":11464.912,"end":11488.568,"text":"如果廠長政策,他現在要討好選票,這8年都沒有漲到一毛錢,我愛百姓但是實際的話,非常困,這個是台灣政治悲哀的地方,台灣政治如果很虛偽的地方都不敢把真實的情況告訴百姓,台灣面臨的問題簡單一下,稍微做一下,一分鐘給部長回答"},{"start":11495.416,"end":11496.201,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11497.759,"end":11515.269,"text":"發言委員,我相信你所計較的部份,我都來檢討。我相信你有能力,明天要拿出來。可以不做官,可以要尊重為台灣百姓做事,不是掛在嘴裡,天天都講那些噁心裝的口號。謝謝,謝謝委員。陳昭明委員,與眾欣賞,為國為民,令人感動。部長請回座。"},{"start":11527.66,"end":11542.936,"text":"來 下一位質詢請羅志強委員主席有請郭部長跟曾董事長請經濟部郭部長排練曾董事長"},{"start":11548.84,"end":11570.118,"text":"委員好部長、董事長台中火力發電廠一期燃氣計畫的兩部燃氣機組預計何時上線明年跟後年2025年跟2026年那燃氣機組上線之後中火燃煤的一號機、二號機何時可以拆除"},{"start":11571.374,"end":11593.752,"text":"我們預計2026年底開始拆2026年底開始拆那明年中火第一部燃氣機組上線那是不是就可以同時去減煤了跟委員報告就是說中火已經從他原來的1800萬噸的用煤量降到現在1200萬噸的用煤量他其實是已經先降"},{"start":11595.237,"end":11601.459,"text":"臺電預估今年的藍莓用量是2450萬公噸,明年是多少?臺電預估今年的藍莓用量是2450萬公噸,明年是多少?大概2200萬左右"},{"start":11613.837,"end":11625.614,"text":"我想之前齁您是講是說你現在剛剛講是2026年嘛可是我剛剛看到我的資料是說你說等到2031年中火第二期的第一部燃氣機組上線齁才要開始減煤300萬噸嘛"},{"start":11628.26,"end":11646.054,"text":"是這個意思嗎?跟委員報告那個是我們在環評上面跟環評委員會提出來的屋頂的限制方案但是我調度上面只要調得過我們其實就會開始慢慢的只要用電量成長的幅度沒有特別高"},{"start":11647.255,"end":11660.399,"text":"其實是個屋頂我們只要調度可行我們就會逐步的來減煤那明年最明年主要是麥寮要下去所以麥寮那邊大概會減掉500萬噸那我想請教我們回到中火的問題中火10部燃煤機組的裝置發電容量是5500那個百萬瓦嘛對不對550萬千瓦"},{"start":11675.563,"end":11679.708,"text":"那2023年實際發電量是3600MW嘛對不對百萬瓦2023年實際發電量應該是270億度左右"},{"start":11688.564,"end":11705.379,"text":"嗯好沒關係我看你的計算基準就是用的那個單位不一樣那我要重點是什麼重點是講就是說實際上以所謂的實際發電量來對比所謂的中火一期的兩部燃氣機組"},{"start":11707.08,"end":11729.611,"text":"加上這個2026年可以完成的中加民營燃氣廠的裝置容量, 核氣大概就是3200這個百萬瓦嗎?是嗎?每個瓦?對,3200每個瓦那其實就跟新增的燃氣發電量幾乎跟現在中火燃煤發電量差不多啊,沒錯吧?"},{"start":11730.875,"end":11732.837,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11747.448,"end":11762.723,"text":"要用一致單位我才有辦法跟你比較,因為手上我沒有幾億度的電啊。我這樣講,我不知道我原來拿到那個3600MW是什麼基準啊,但是我們基本上都是用煤量直接相關的。你裝置發電一般也未必用到嘛,對不對?"},{"start":11762.723,"end":11766.046,"text":"是。所以你用這個公司算下來是多少?"},{"start":11766.046,"end":11766.407,"text":"我們是5500MW。"},{"start":11769.366,"end":11795.732,"text":"你歸後再把實際數字給我好不好因為我這也是從台電資料抓下來的那你的數字跟我說跟我不一樣那你把實際數字給我所以我的問題是為什麼既然以所謂的發電量來看我講不是裝置容量那為什麼不能在一期的兩部燃氣機組上線的時候就開始及早減煤一定要做到2034年才能夠做到中火無煤化"},{"start":11796.892,"end":11812.498,"text":"我是認為你們的做法端可以再積極一點因為台中其實承擔這麼大的一個火力發電產生的所謂的一個排碳對台中人來講也不是很公平沒錯吧那個我跟委員報告就是說台中市的一年的用電度數是340億度那中火發電度數是270億度"},{"start":11817.94,"end":11842.788,"text":"實際上中間有個gap在內我要講就是說今天對台中的人來說的話實際上台中火力發電廠真的是舉世聞名沒錯吧你對那個台中的那個燃氣也好燃煤也好實際上造成台中空氣上的負擔我覺得這一點請你們再積極一點以上謝謝羅志祥委員來部長請回座下一位質詢請賴世保委員"},{"start":11854.14,"end":11877.386,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長請經濟部的郭部長昨天在立法院關於台電最佳預算做一個中央報告要一千億毛"},{"start":11878.775,"end":11906.041,"text":"是那還有在我們立法院還有另外一個一千億增資一千億你知道嗎?嗯?增資還有一千億你知道嗎?沒有增資一千億有啦兩個一千億拜託還是補助一千億那就等於兩個一千億我就跟你講兩個一千億兩個一千億不是只有一千億如果你做了專案報告"},{"start":11907.674,"end":11908.756,"text":"最後立法院不買單你怎麼辦?彼此摸一摸就這樣子?漲低價還是什麼的?你怎麼辦?我們就是在財務上面去努力嘛就是去借錢啊"},{"start":11923.191,"end":11926.255,"text":"怎麼借錢呢?發公司債?發公司債?"},{"start":11926.255,"end":11939.111,"text":"都可以啊!我想財務的手段有很多種嘛!比如說?比如說就是跟銀行再繼續借啊!你現在借多少?現在借多少?發過...就剛才我需要的這個兩千億就是來補啊!"},{"start":11941.318,"end":11963.568,"text":"這臭人勒這句話部長啊我們立法院就不應該給你過啦這2000億不會給你過你有辦法去借錢啊為什麼給你過對不對你講的不清楚而且你一部就是無所謂的樣子你就無所謂我們有無所謂我們也一直在跟委員溝通就是說請大院能夠同意我們這一個2000億是要來彌補過去因為"},{"start":11969.051,"end":11980.258,"text":"民生的這個成本民生的成本高於我的售價所以這一部分我們是在沒有看到你努力阿你們用比較貴的生產成本的電源這個再生電源阿也是10%而已阿便宜的核電硬不要用大家沒有看到你這個有誠意你說我窮其一切努力沒有辦法啦跟立法院有錢立法院博友第二句話"},{"start":11996.488,"end":11996.568,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":12014.941,"end":12032.308,"text":"我們是在解決目前的問題我們會用綠電是現在我們用電戶他需要綠電至於您剛才所垂詢的這個核電的部分他也占我們一部分的這個現在沒有了現在是非核現在請問你知道核三廠的二號機一號二號機的大修現在是沒有"},{"start":12039.891,"end":12042.833,"text":"現在這個時候是廢物但是我們虧損的時候造成虧損的時候那個時候核電是在運作的"},{"start":12048.004,"end":12067.664,"text":"那我們增加的部分是綠電綠電是市場上需要的所以我必須要滿足市場的需求所以我們要增加綠電這個跟能源政策我相信每一個人的問題也不太一樣好 那我再問你喔因為我時間快到了你的核四2800多億怎麼處理"},{"start":12070.575,"end":12078.043,"text":"合適兩千半百多億怎麼處理?我們按照計劃去執行什麼叫按照計劃?你要講具體的啊?什麼叫按照計劃?聽不懂啊?那我請台電的這個董事長給你報告喔!可以部長這要知道這麼重要的事情你還跟人家跟你說不好意思你跟人家不好意思沒中捏"},{"start":12089.042,"end":12118.302,"text":"報告委員因為那個核四部分還有資產資產我們現在有多少資產不要用了那個電力設備包括電力設備其實還有其他的用途可以做規務請教部長啦部長給你一個你喜歡天馬行空我給你一個天馬行空我做球給你啦核四廠有沒有可能增加他的一個價值所以賣給需要的廠商可以嗎有沒有可能賣給人家這些都有可能啦有沒有可能有沒有開始在接觸"},{"start":12119.743,"end":12146.265,"text":"有沒有開始在接觸我們希望把價值升高把他的這個這個沒有用的提早解決2800億如果按照相關的會計準則他不等於零年金不等於幾十億而已啦想辦法讓他產生價值你的2000億不要跟立法院拿的不要跟馬國興拿的想法跟你是一樣的想辦法做到好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":12149.067,"end":12176.394,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員謝謝來部長回座來下一位諮詢請吳立華委員我們在李玉琳委員諮詢之後會休息休息時間我待會再宣布謝謝主席有請部長請經濟部顧部長還有台水公司"},{"start":12177.23,"end":12198.19,"text":"台海水公司李董事長謝謝委員好部長好就政府的政策我們一直希望能夠提升自來水的普及率那為著我們的用水安全但是在我們的原鄉齁其實過去比較不喜歡自來水"},{"start":12198.911,"end":12213.64,"text":"因為要花錢所以我們都有山泉水可以用而且喝起來比較清甜但是這幾年我們原鄉對自來水的需求越來越高最主要的原因就是因為天災不斷"},{"start":12214.64,"end":12241.155,"text":"所以為了用水的穩定開始原鄉也很急迫需要自來水那這個部分我還是要感謝因為我到立法院這些年我接受到這種自來水需求的申請非常的多那也謝謝逐一逐一的在座以我自己的家鄉馬家鄉來講你看光是嘉義村、梁山村"},{"start":12242.236,"end":12256.663,"text":"整個從會勘到整個規劃包括土地的無償取得加壓站配水池的設置比一般的平地地區複雜很多大概這樣子走完也要兩年所以"},{"start":12258.484,"end":12263.87,"text":"上個月我去達人鄉圖版他們就很開心那我去的時候其實我心裡也蠻難過因為他們告訴我說這個通水典禮其實他們已經等了12年所以我想這個部分對於這種偏鄉像是滿洲鄉最南邊的長樂、八瑤"},{"start":12279.046,"end":12298.331,"text":"那現在包括牡丹水庫它的用水正義到牡丹鄉加壓站的一直設置獅子鄉沿線向最後一里路伊屯草埔還有那個舊的來義村我想這些部分其實都是非常的偏遠但是呢我們也都做到我在這個地方還是要表達感謝"},{"start":12299.551,"end":12322.643,"text":"但是像有一些地方像是蘭嶼它也很需要自來水普及因為水對一個島來講其實非常的不容易取得那包括太安鄉他們那個很深山他們那個大興村沿館也是很辛苦要設好幾個配水池加壓站那不曉得進度如何了我是不是請董事長跟你報告好 謝謝好 謝謝委員的一個推詢那有關蘭嶼"},{"start":12328.893,"end":12356.803,"text":"這一個沿館的工程也在委員這邊的一個協調協助之下本來是有一些民眾有一些反對不過經過委員還有公所這邊協助這些原住民大概理解那我們工程也持續在好幾年了對 已經在進行了我們議定南乙以南業遊村的部分大概明年10月可以完工好 謝謝明年10月那另外"},{"start":12357.591,"end":12382.229,"text":"苗栗縣泰安鄉大新村的這個案目前是水利署用減水的方式來補助給泰安鄉公所新建三座配水池這個我們有做一些技術的一個協助審查我去過很多地方你看這個泰安鄉大新村每一次去召開說明會幾乎都是泉源道塞得滿滿滿的"},{"start":12383.63,"end":12404.119,"text":"所以可以感受到他們對這個自來水的需求比起其他地方高很多所以我特別關心希望可以更加的來關照他們的進度好不好那當然我更關心的是一些地方就是戶數很少因為我們原鄉你們也有你們的評比制度那像這種戶數少的更慘"},{"start":12405.339,"end":12431.104,"text":"其實我們原鄉是因為他離那個主管縣地理環境的關係很遠所以每次要算評比都很辛苦那這種戶數少得更辛苦但是我今天看到你們的預算報告有說第5期114到118有75億齁那我不曉得說因為我從進來立法院就一直講原鄉的地理環境成本效益很難壓在60萬元以下那不曉得這個一直講一直講有沒有改變啊"},{"start":12432.332,"end":12451.742,"text":"發言委員那在最近合訂的第5期計畫裡面原來的成本每戶是60萬現在已經提升到100萬而且檢疫自來水的部分我們加大力度在做維護管理跟很多的水質的改善所以在這一次都有做大幅的提升謝謝委員的"},{"start":12454.264,"end":12469.859,"text":"因為我們原鄉就像那個冰葬那股牆以前我們不習慣但是我們現在這幾年需求量就非常的高希望能夠多關注那我再請教一下部長因為在明年有一個五年一度的日本大阪市博會"},{"start":12470.82,"end":12486.156,"text":"這是很重要的活動那我之前呢有開過協調會有找國貿署外貿協會因為我很關心到底有沒有原住民的文化元素商品展演但是我發現原民會我那邊問進度齁他們跟我說沒有什麼進度欸"},{"start":12489.64,"end":12515.822,"text":"所以這個部分是不是事後來跟我報告為什麼我關切這個你看這是今年9月也是在大阪國立民族學博物館很大的博物館亞洲你看中國把我們原住民的服飾拿去辦一個策展叫做中國地域的文化所以我想這個不論是政治性也好文化性也好我想無論如何原住民的在地文化是我們出去的很重要好不好部長"},{"start":12516.983,"end":12544.82,"text":"那台電這個部分最後一個部分我一分鐘就好因為台電電纜地下滑你們都說已經高達44%高於日韓但是我們原鄉老基於風災啊火災防災的需求還有好風景的需求我們也很需要那我知道的是我關心的幾個案我發現其實市政府也都很願意來分攤但是好像一直沒有什麼進度而且我發現"},{"start":12545.6,"end":12570.345,"text":"像這次的風災或者是這些火災頻頻發生我本來有影片你看我照了好幾個影片都是電纜跟樹木然後造成森林大火所以這個有一些地區原鄉不是不需要電纜地下化那因為時間的關係那是不是一週內不好意思喔董事長跟部長就再來辦公室跟我來做報告好嗎"},{"start":12571.385,"end":12574.667,"text":"今天早上執行到李玉玲委員之後我們會休息40分鐘12點40"},{"start":12599.024,"end":12619.881,"text":"40分鐘等執行完之後我們休息40分鐘好下一位執行請李玉玲委員謝謝主席請經濟部的郭部長、台電公司的曾董事長委員好部長"},{"start":12628.479,"end":12654.716,"text":"我們賴清德總統曾經說要大力的來發展AI人工的智慧讓我們台灣可以在半導體產業跟AI的產業能夠立足在全世界成為一個科技島那部長也應該知道不管是我們的半導體還是AI的這個產業都非常需要大量的電但是我們台灣一直是缺電的情形雖然我們執政的政府一直講說沒有缺電但是還是有"},{"start":12656.897,"end":12662.118,"text":"停電跟跳電事件頻傳的來發生那尤其是天下雜誌的民調特別有提到有七成的民眾很擔心著台灣是缺電的風險另外有七成的民眾更是支持核電跟再生能源可以同步來一起的來發展尤其是在11月13號賴清德總統跟我們的工業總會特別有在談話中表示說只要新的能源能夠發展"},{"start":12685.542,"end":12703.288,"text":"順利到一定的程度還有安全的來處理這個整個核廢料的問題的話可以納入考慮所以部長這是不是就代表說我們賴總統對於核電的這個立場可以有調整而且還支持核電跟再生能源可以有社會共識一起來執行"},{"start":12704.79,"end":12729.692,"text":"報告委員我想您剛才在說這個七成的人擔心我們的電不夠我不知道這個是誰說的不過我在這裡鄭重的跟你報告我剛剛講的就是那個雜誌他們民調出來的結果雜誌民調的對象天下雜誌你一定要參考你不要忽略到我們社會大眾的觀感好不好是是是謝謝委員這個部分我們當然參考"},{"start":12731.419,"end":12735.163,"text":"我要跟你們報告的是說我們沒有缺電"},{"start":12736.819,"end":12751.931,"text":"有缺電還是有頻繁的這個跳電跟停電的問題嘛所以你們一再的保證又說明來澄清但是民眾還是擔心的所以現在我們要讓我們的成為科技島電就要穩定供電所以我現在要問的部長的問題就是說在我們桃園大潭電廠7號機跟9號機一再的延宕"},{"start":12761.238,"end":12767.823,"text":"雖然說有這個九號機已經點火測試了五月測試那八月份也已經併網了但是現在還沒有拿到能源局的執照還沒有辦法供電所以我們請了民間電廠、麥寮電廠他本來是在這個五月份、六月份的時候就要除役現在要延到明年的11月10號11月份明年的11月份才會來除役"},{"start":12788.24,"end":12792.41,"text":"所以這就是因為要補我們缺電的缺口嘛是不是"},{"start":12793.357,"end":12821.932,"text":"報告委員 不是不是那為什麼他要延後廚藝呢你是說那個麥寮那個是因為麥寮那個是不是台電的公司他是民營的啊他是民營的啊那廚藝的時間是到了啊今年的六月啊民營台電之間有契約時間雖然到了但是容量沒有到供電的容量沒有到你們有一套的說法啦那好我們回來講大潭的七號機跟九號機為什麼一直的延後呢"},{"start":12824.865,"end":12839.813,"text":"延後兩次囉王總經理報告委員之前7號機、9號機延後當然是因為COVID-19的關係還有就是惡霧戰爭、缺工等等這些因素但是目前這兩部機已經都在測試運轉了在測試中所以它平常都會有9號機"},{"start":12848.258,"end":12874.558,"text":"7號機是快的9號機已經在5月份測試了8月份併網了現在是7號機還沒有點火測試所以擔心的是萬一測試不成功的話我們是不是又有缺電的問題不會 因為7號機目前的測試的程序都是一步一步很扎實在進行還沒測試啊 什麼時候測試我說我們都會做局部的一個小的一個"},{"start":12875.258,"end":12879.603,"text":"他跟你講了7號機還沒有測試耶9號機測試了還沒發制造我現在問你7號機呢7號機12月初就會點火他測試要成功他失敗的話就沒辦法併網了"},{"start":12892.778,"end":12895.522,"text":"請部長、董事長、總經理加強控管整個的期程不要讓民眾有缺電的恐懼"},{"start":12907.415,"end":12912.157,"text":"臺電的先請回那我們講完電當然要講水那自來水的問題一直有這個漏水的問題跟管線老舊塑膠管線要太舊換新的問題尤其是我們李董事長非常認真的在汰換這管線但是我們把這個數據啊調出來看了之後你看這個漏水的問題"},{"start":12933.705,"end":12951.504,"text":"從各個區 總共有12個區還有加上屏東這些區域我們在平均112年的漏水率平均是12%但是你看到第一區第一區的話是基隆區漏水率是20%屏東區的漏水率還是19%所以這些問題為什麼沒辦法解決呢"},{"start":12956.829,"end":12959.33,"text":"跟委員報告因為第一區是我們基隆地區那他那邊的地形都是丘陵地所以我們加壓佔很多"},{"start":12975.342,"end":12998.39,"text":"那加壓供水管線就比較容易有破損所以要加強管控這個加壓供水雖然說我們這個老舊管線的汰換是有足年代的汰換但是我們這個看到我們這個數據裡面它這個供水的這個漏水率還是還是有增加的部分還是有增加的部分是不是你看到在102年到110年這個情形"},{"start":13006.96,"end":13029.947,"text":"應該我們漏水率是每個單位都有逐漸在減少所以我們的漏水率的話並不是年限的問題有些的話就是地震或是氣候環境的關係所以我們希望有漏水有爆管的我們就直接換新管好不好不要一直補都沒有用你補的後面的話你加壓下去的話它就會爆管了"},{"start":13031.155,"end":13051.726,"text":"對 這個本來在我們的降落的計畫中尤其是 董事長尤其是有塑膠管有塑膠管 我們塑膠管的話也是逐年汰換但是我們看到我們逐年看到這塑膠管的情形也是一樣啊尤其是你看到這個我們的使用年限使用年限的話本來102年是36%的話到了現在112年的話46%這個反而增加了反而增加了這是很奇怪的問題吧"},{"start":13060.017,"end":13072.665,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在那個因為塑膠管要使用年限大概20年可是我們逐年都在換啊這必須要逐年減少嘛所以這個是不是預算不足預算不足的話你就多編一些預算啊"},{"start":13074.242,"end":13100.396,"text":"我們塑膠管是類為優先來汰換使用年限我們現在使用年限是20年還是30年要換管的我們塑膠管是20年很多地方超過30年沒換管我相信自來水公司都有數據資料所以可以朝這方面來換管嘛因為它是30年還是塑膠管的話因為20年以上的機會還不是塑膠管你塑膠管停電再來電的時候它就會爆管"},{"start":13101.376,"end":13124.591,"text":"熱帳人說他就會報館而且塑膠管裡面有很多的誤會的雜誌在裡面是不是所以要優先好不好這是使用年限的問題第二個問題的話就是這個塑膠管的問題塑膠管我沒有看到啦塑膠管雖然你逐年他換的話他有減少部分但是我們希望齁這個一定要按時間來尤其我要提的就是說"},{"start":13125.171,"end":13148.223,"text":"很多的社區沒有使用自來水的他們申請的時候請董事長優先給他們換一個社區都是兩三百戶喔他們用黃米水在飲用因為現在的井水都被污染了所以請董事長尤其是社區的管線要申請自來水請你們優先給他們使用好不好因為是大的社區可不可以那我們要加強這個太舊換新的管線"},{"start":13150.504,"end":13151.304,"text":"我們現在休息12點50分繼續開會"},{"start":13192.143,"end":13192.263,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13218.431,"end":13219.111,"text":"委員會主席委員會議"},{"start":13239.144,"end":13246.413,"text":"有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份"},{"start":13265.944,"end":13267.105,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":13283.015,"end":13283.555,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":13310.762,"end":13311.983,"text":"對啦對啦對啦對啦對啦對啦對啦"},{"start":13345.644,"end":13346.385,"text":"全世界都可以這樣換"},{"start":13378.287,"end":13384.653,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司"},{"start":13402.231,"end":13404.755,"text":"公司公司公司公司公司"},{"start":13418.13,"end":13419.131,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":13447.739,"end":13448.059,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13472.112,"end":13472.832,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13512.529,"end":13513.269,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13542.904,"end":13543.064,"text":"議員﹚發言人﹚"},{"start":13571.21,"end":13572.012,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":13582.216,"end":13582.636,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13615.745,"end":13616.746,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13627.765,"end":13636.728,"text":"有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司有限公司"},{"start":13661.451,"end":13662.132,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13684.959,"end":13685.299,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13710.426,"end":13711.771,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13715.8,"end":13740.274,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有"},{"start":13748.932,"end":13761.542,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟部總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":13781.584,"end":13782.065,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13810.697,"end":13811.217,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13835.196,"end":13836.476,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13864.117,"end":13869.764,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司。"},{"start":13886.17,"end":13900.8,"text":"中央電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":13917.456,"end":13927.978,"text":"一個半月,一個半月好多錢。打一碗,我們得修店的錢。這是我們的公司的股票。這是總管,大家不要的公司的股票。啊?我不知道,好了。"},{"start":13952.602,"end":13957.425,"text":"我不要下得這麼高反正我先把這個報告先寫出來我就是那個誰提的對不對這個蔡...欸不是蔡允潔"},{"start":13987.346,"end":13988.127,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14014.286,"end":14018.047,"text":"民眾委員民黨長那我 那個下禮拜總裁有任何"},{"start":14036.711,"end":14037.011,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14067.039,"end":14068.408,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14073.604,"end":14078.707,"text":"這個二九號的音樂會所謂的二九號的音樂會我後來想說應該是你來打他制造集那個"},{"start":14103.065,"end":14107.3,"text":"他就是要結個月會長我跟你講你不要把央行一些事情拿出來講"},{"start":15506.803,"end":15506.823,"text":"楊瓊英議員"},{"start":15533.11,"end":15551.751,"text":"委員好部長、董事長好綠電弊案掏空台灣綠電發展倒退了現在大家疑雲重重本期也非常希望一個國家應該是往正能量的方向去走但是疑雲這麼多我們還是要去理清楚執行到現在"},{"start":15553.12,"end":15573.172,"text":"部長,我們的現在所謂的淪為綠能的這個蟑螂啊,貪蟑王法,掏空台電的天堂。台南有神隱的,有力量的不利利益這麼多錢,最近又爆了彰化雲林。"},{"start":15574.852,"end":15596.678,"text":"你這個賺台電再生能源的賺購電費不法的利益有這麼多所以董事長你當時是擔任政次我相信當時你在執行政策的過程你應該是有參與過那你有沒有覺得你當時的執行政策方向怎麼會導致目前的弊案這麼多這個亂象為什麼"},{"start":15599.704,"end":15616.984,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是我們不管是光電或是其他再生能源案有很多都是用地管理用地管理 原因?用地管理 其中有一個很大部分真的是用地的管理"},{"start":15617.745,"end":15635.191,"text":"他的審查就有非常多的層級那在這個過程裡面我這樣子講包括連簽電線都有入權取得等等相關的問題我們看到現在有很多的案子有很多都是在那個細節的管理上面真的是出了很多的問題"},{"start":15636.511,"end":15636.971,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個因為我們行政審查分權"},{"start":15654.443,"end":15675.042,"text":"就是分層負責的權利能不能夠統一一個標準其實站在我們經濟部的立場其實也表達過說我們是不是能夠把這些相關不管是容許許可等等的一些規範儘量標準化那經濟部一直在朝著這個方向所以還沒有辦法達成"},{"start":15676.603,"end":15685.515,"text":"因為真的是牽涉到非常所以這個真的是亂成一章中央跟地方也不同你是執行者也是決策者也是現在的董事長你看到這麼多問題部長"},{"start":15687.54,"end":15709.958,"text":"像這樣子難怪蟑螂四處讓我們台電整個天堂把我們挖空那所以本期要請教也就是說原因其實你們知道但是你們做不來也就在當時的決策橫向聯繫根本沒有辦法去做一個讓人民可以信賴的規範出來"},{"start":15711.98,"end":15737.2,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教關於電的囤購補助這個制度來退場減輕了利益的風險降低台電因為保證收購而承擔過度的壓力支持吧本席的立場支持吧這個我們可以納入考慮啦納入考慮是支持還不支持你總是要支持"},{"start":15738.041,"end":15755.26,"text":"支持才會納入考慮你的支持你不要笑我覺得這個很嚴肅的議題支持就是支持納入考慮就是納入考慮是支持那支持我們繼續來討論本來我們很想綠能的發展但是是倒退路的"},{"start":15756.101,"end":15772.446,"text":"部長你注意聽喔我們原本光電的賺夠的補助制度我們為了是什麼為什麼要補助因為我們為了要加強再生燃油的發展快一點鼓勵對不對這個搭朝正能量的方向但是光電跳票2026年要達到23萬不可能"},{"start":15776.523,"end":15805.495,"text":"目前有可能目前多少是可能目前多少什麼是可能我們是2025年目前才完成13.6是2025年然後現在是我們延到2026年2026年是要20GW所以我們要討論因為你之前跳票了來你延後一年對不對2025延後到2026對不對25年還沒到啊對你延後一年嘛你政策宣示了嘛你跟我咬文絕字做什麼對不對那目前你完成多少"},{"start":15807.438,"end":15819.8,"text":"目前是3.6啊那政府怎麼辦失職失能你把錢都花掉讓那個綠蟑螂剛才董事長講了綠蟑螂到處橫行那還有一個重點部長還有一個重點光電併網量不增反減為什麼為什麼照理講你認為很有信心啊你應該要增加今年單一的年度併網量可不可以達成兩個幾個月"},{"start":15837.239,"end":15859.031,"text":"請教這個我是不是請他們可不可以完成來請說明發言委員目前施工的量有達到2GW不過因為有一些地方政府的行政程序比較緩慢跟董事長講的一樣跟曾董講的一樣部長你聽所以你是達不到的現在外界告訴你今年的8月底是多少1.26GW"},{"start":15861.311,"end":15890.353,"text":"去年是多少?2.7幾個萬那換句話說你越弄越糟糕電電網越來越少怎麼辦怎麼辦你花了大批的錢剛剛所說的不管能源局不管是董事長所說的都是他們碰到這麼多的瓶頸答案是結果論是答不到的所以部長你要面對這個問題你要面對這個問題啊你明明答不到啊你明明答不到你要怎麼樣做"},{"start":15891.909,"end":15903.581,"text":"你反而花大把的錢導致你的這個光電併網量是越少跟以前是比較起來是越少這個邏輯講不通嗎這個邏輯是講不通的啊所以我告訴你你的量就已經少了啊"},{"start":15913.627,"end":15914.647,"text":"人民不是提款機"},{"start":15940.752,"end":15948.359,"text":"財務的缺口你有答應說什麼時候要拿出台電的這個財務改善計畫輸出來因為我們現在要審預算了什麼時候沒有沒有請問部長因為部長在大院以及在這邊都有答覆"},{"start":15958.988,"end":15973.882,"text":"我講今年底嘛今年年底嘛對啊所以你要誠懇的回答就今年底因為現在要審預算了來本席請問近三年如果再加上這一次的追加明年度的公務預算1000億三年5000億我請問你早上回答說如果如果115年還有個1000億這是真的假的啊"},{"start":15984,"end":16007.916,"text":"聽到這個會讓我們嚇一跳耶是真的假的請我願意給你說明清楚委員我可以講嗎我請你講啊我報告委員我們是真的假的這個一千億兩千億或者是將來的一千億都是在彌補過去的因為補助民生電價而造成這樣子的邏輯本席聽不下去本席請問針對本席的議題回答"},{"start":16009.983,"end":16015.252,"text":"也就是你的心中有沒有115年希望還要1000億來撥補有沒有你早上說了從你的口中說出來有沒有"},{"start":16019.864,"end":16048.513,"text":"你的心中有沒有預估115年你會不會再有1000億的來撥補會不會我現在沒有辦法判斷115年是不是要撥補你早上回答在這個都有會議記錄都有影音嘛是委員你說如果還有1000億啊大家聽了下一條委員千萬不要斷章取義來請你說明會不會你告訴我就好了會不會現在沒有辦法判斷現在沒有辦法判斷所以有可能謝謝"},{"start":16050.635,"end":16063.794,"text":"是不是?好,你不講,你雙手一攤。第二個本集請問,如果這個預算,這個追加跟明年度的預算真的給再兩千億、三年五千億,請問明年會不會漲價?"},{"start":16066.285,"end":16087.872,"text":"長假是電價審議委員的工作啦對 所以還是沒有辦法回答所以最後就成如你信中所說的你現在還沒有辦法預估你願不願意說115年不會再有1100億的這個波幅在你當任部長 會不會未來的事情我沒有辦法在這個地方回答那我們要問誰啊好 謝謝 歡迎時間到 梁委員"},{"start":16088.792,"end":16113.284,"text":"我們要問誰啊?人民不是提款機耶!我們現在台電4千多億的虧損!我們問你們,你們要拿出方針啊!對不對?我們會努力啦!我們真的會努力!我們大家一起努力!那個,發言事已經差不多很多了!我們以實際討論的問題因為你早上說了"},{"start":16118.286,"end":16119.506,"text":"請你趕快把你的財務規劃拿出來"},{"start":16148.432,"end":16173.344,"text":"我沒有辦法告訴他回答他不回答下次等你當主席再說我要確保夏威夷我公正不惡他有回答啦他有回答你沒有聽進去而已他回答不是你要的條件怎麼現在你在質詢我呢"},{"start":16178.51,"end":16178.931,"text":"請經濟部部長、台電曾董事長"},{"start":16211.104,"end":16215.162,"text":"台電成本來自發輸、配售各個環節成本都有上升"},{"start":16218.062,"end":16238.695,"text":"來部長我想跟您說一下我們之前講到國營事業球隊的保險的部分我們知道經濟部現在有積極在面對但是呢相關的進度我認為我們可以推進的更快但是我就不再利用時間在這邊跟您討論後續我們會持續追蹤但是對於你們的做法我們先給予正向的肯定另外呢其實在球隊裡面呢我們暑假都有規劃這個放電影對嗎部長你知道嗎"},{"start":16242.145,"end":16245.547,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司：台灣電力股份有限公司："},{"start":16272.605,"end":16273.106,"text":"委員會大使"},{"start":16284.841,"end":16305.306,"text":"他做了哪些事情以台灣運動好事協會這是他自己成立的協會他做了什麼事情例如說他過往跟巴勒斯坦的女子棒球隊以贈送球具的方式創造了運動外交的連結當然那個送的球具不是你們給的他跟民間募款來的可是未來他們還有更多例如說他們想要跟孟加拉紐蘭發展計畫"},{"start":16306.866,"end":16331.685,"text":"做合作那他們即將在12月前往孟加拉舉辦教練研習營那這個研習營的部分呢他們要做的方法是辦理線上國際初階教練講習先協助孟加拉8位籃球教練獲得教練證照可是為什麼這件事情在孟加拉這麼重要部長您過去的產業經驗應該可以看得出來女性教練這件事情在孟加拉的意義跟重要性對不對"},{"start":16333.964,"end":16357.444,"text":"因為它本來就是一個對女性不甚友善的國家但如果可以透過運動這件事情讓女性的主體性被看見我覺得這件事情非常重要那以無論所大使劉伯鈞他目前要積極推動這個案例部長你覺得經濟部或者是台電我們有什麼樣的角度可以積極的促進運動外交協助這些無論所大使或者是協助其他民間相關的社團"},{"start":16358.687,"end":16368.824,"text":"我們都樂意來對這個運動來做推動那我想這個我們所屬的這個油煉糖水"},{"start":16369.69,"end":16391.569,"text":"我們都會把他建立一些球隊我認為這個有啦球隊現在都有了啦球隊現在有但我講的是這個運動外交的部分他只有台電嘛外交也不是只有台電可以做是我們有很多的這個但我們現在現有的這個球隊的部分有沒有機會我剛以這個孟加拉這個案子為例有沒有機會在後續促成一些合作的可能性"},{"start":16392.881,"end":16407.402,"text":"我們要看這個計畫啦希望達到的成果是什麼我想即使是國營的企業他對這些資助、贊助也必須要有目的有目的然後我們看到成果這個我們才繼續推動"},{"start":16408.203,"end":16434.578,"text":"有目的跟有正當性我覺得這個很重要尤其它是國家的預算所以我後續有兩點我最後的建議就是除了我剛剛說的那個孩子的部分孩子活動夏天冬天的娛樂營我認為這件事情要感謝你們持續的辦理那也希望給予相關球團跟球員肯定最後一個就是運動外交的部分那至於怎麼樣讓這個經費跟預算合理的使用或者是你們可以扮演什麼樣的角色我想後續我們是不是就再來進行討論"},{"start":16436.247,"end":16436.267,"text":"紅夢凱委員"},{"start":16465.949,"end":16489.707,"text":"來主席麻煩請我們郭智慧部長請進入郭部長來部長委員好延續昨天在院會齁持續在跟您做請教你有受訪或者說你在答詢的時候有講到是說即便是台電今年追加千億明年再補補千億明年還是會虧損是不是"},{"start":16497.225,"end":16503.472,"text":"臺電明年還是會虧損這你講的你講的不是嗎你答詢的時候你講的明年還是會虧損"},{"start":16506.038,"end":16525.475,"text":"累虧沒辦法累虧沒有辦法完全來處理啦累虧目前大家都推給說是原物料上漲的部分但是這個已經是老命題了嘛我們講是說如果說我們的原物料我們的發電方式我們的結構不改變的話你再怎麼樣虧損都還再怎麼樣的補貼都還是虧損啊"},{"start":16528.197,"end":16553.593,"text":"那羊毛出在羊身上一定還是所有的納稅人來買單,不是嗎?報告委員,我想從很多的數字上面來可以看得出來台電是一直在進步那造成台電虧損的大概兩個原因第一個原因就是我們的材料的成本非常的高而且這些材料的成本是從國外買進來的就國際原物料上漲嘛但原物料起起疊疊可是我們一直看到的是持續的虧損"},{"start":16555.074,"end":16570.471,"text":"我們沒有因為看到說國際原物料違規到原本的價格之後我們開店就不虧損因為這個就是您剛剛所指導的這部分也就是說我們對電價對從用電物裡面收到的這個價格"},{"start":16571.972,"end":16589.82,"text":"事實上沒有辦法讓我們反映,有一部分是沒有辦法反映成本。譬如說我們動漲啊,或者是對民生的這個部分,我們即使賣給,我們現在即使賣給民生的這個價格,還是虧錢。電價審議委員會到底有沒有政治利潔路?"},{"start":16595.002,"end":16620.342,"text":"電價審議委員會是獨立自主的是你又講獨立自主可是你又講是說現在沒有辦法如實反映電價我覺得聽不懂你們的邏輯這個是邏輯非常正確的完全聽不懂你們的邏輯來部長我再確認一下你今天的中午有在受訪講是說你看相關的核能民調支持已經有六七成是不是是媒體問的你看哪一份民調"},{"start":16623.361,"end":16652.08,"text":"媒體告訴我的啊你講是說他看郭志輝看相關核電民調支持已有六七成民主國家是多數的多數決所以核能共識這個命題不難你是看哪一份民調我就是說問那個媒體啊看哪個媒體問我呢但是你認為說核能共識在台灣有沒有多數決有沒有共識我認為台灣是一個民主的國家有沒有共識了現在"},{"start":16653.106,"end":16675.873,"text":"那這個可能要再討論嘛。 現在我們在總統府 今天聯合新聞網出來的快訊講說共識決 郭部長說已經有了 而核能安全在台灣也不難 我也同意啊 因為我們有核安會啊 那剩下就是核廢料問題怎麼處理"},{"start":16677.754,"end":16702.352,"text":"就是這三原則嗎?就是你現在你又改口又不敢承認你自己講了一個共識訣我們還想說說民進黨政府裡面還有一個腦袋相對比較清楚不到兩個小時你又改口了我沒有要套你的話這明明就是你自己的話啊你去看一下媒體報導好不好那你要不要更正?"},{"start":16704.857,"end":16712.948,"text":"要不要要求媒體更正我還是在這裡跟委員直接報告媒體問我說六七層部長來啦最後啦"},{"start":16715.56,"end":16744.066,"text":"部長真的說實在話你在擔任部長之前當董事長阿我覺得你的尷尬還比較有一點啦但是當了部長之後真的跌跌死撞死跌跌好像台灣的現況跟我們生活經濟部生活是完全是平行時空我只請教最後一點我是經濟部長我必須要發表行政院整體的運作是所以說你就是執行民進黨政府的意志嘛聽好本席的問題喔"},{"start":16745.006,"end":16770.533,"text":"那現在河山廠的二號機正在稅休稅休會到什麼時候12月上旬12月上旬那12月上旬之後會不會再重新啟動發電依法還是要啟動依法還是要啟動那我們會到什麼時候來做廚藝5月5月明年的5月那從12月到明年5月這中間河山廠二號機會不會產生核廢料"},{"start":16773.53,"end":16789.369,"text":"如果說運轉的話會不會當然會阿是啊那現在民進黨政府不是一直在講是說我要的三個原則和安、共識以及核廢料處理那如果說你現在沒有辦法有這個處理的方式標準的話你怎麼有辦法來重啟好 謝謝"},{"start":16791.694,"end":16813.101,"text":"他是在運作的現在是不是就已經有現在是不是已經有卓榮泰院長是不是有講如果說我要研議核能或說我要用核能發電的話我要用新核能那你現在核三廠的二號機你稅收完之後你這是新核能還是舊核能核三廠二號機算是新核能還是舊核能"},{"start":16814.916,"end":16837.729,"text":"核生廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能?舊核能所以在你們的主政之下即便是現在我有這三前提但是我要用電的時候我還是要用就是要把它給用好用滿這就你的答案這不是法律規定啊這不是法律規定你也沒選擇如果說現在台灣的農業現在台灣能源夠的話你也可以不要用啊"},{"start":16838.889,"end":16859.759,"text":"這重點是現在台灣能源不夠,所以你們才會連一吃一毫的電你們都要用啊,不是嗎?謝謝,因為維持每一個委員發言公平性,今天我特別給你4加4,4加3.5啦,如果說部長能夠都回答問題的話,我們不會浪費時間"},{"start":16865.429,"end":16866.951,"text":"副總統請回座副總統請回座"},{"start":16889.272,"end":16899.469,"text":"謝謝趙偉趙偉我們請部長跟台電董事長等董事長結束之後我們再針對自來水的部分快速來問問題"},{"start":16902.04,"end":16924.598,"text":"委員好部長好董事長好董事長我們看到立法院的預算中心他的這個審查報告有提到說台電為使用或依原規定的使用之土地有計166件301筆那面積是27萬平方公尺左右那其中原定最後使用期間20年以上的土地有47件90筆那面積是4萬多平方公尺"},{"start":16925.461,"end":16944.642,"text":"那在民間公司的話因為部長以前也在民間公司那應該是很快速的就會來處理這些閒置資產來去增加營業的資金那我想請教董事長說未來針對這些部分怎麼樣做有效的利用可不可以請董事長來簡單的回應我們一下那個跟委員報告"},{"start":16945.743,"end":16972.97,"text":"就是在2021年的時候這一個數字其實預算中心有提過當時有129公頃現在是27公頃所以它其實改善的幅度相當的大那我也要跟委員報告就是說台電會有一些鐵台用地那零星的你剛才提到那個比數都不少加加起來就會有這一些可是我們這幾年包括變電站的新建還有電廠的新建通過環評有突破"},{"start":16974.93,"end":17002.623,"text":"所以整個使用的比例就開始提升相對來講沒有使用的面積也比較少那因為他的單位是平方公尺聽起來好幾萬所以就很大那你如果一般我們在考慮就是用公頃來算的話他現在是27公頃OK好我們換算27公頃反正說你從100多公頃降到20多公頃了所以這一個幅度是有的那部長你也認同說這樣子的這個速率或未來的方向"},{"start":17003.739,"end":17025.409,"text":"這個是我們統計的這個數字啦這有在下降那閒置的土地我想能夠處理我們當然會處理啦但是有一些就是說在鐵塔旁邊的這些土地啊這個就沒有辦法處理啦OK好那部長我們希望說未來可以更加有效的利用這些資產那接下來我們請這個自來水公司李董事長"},{"start":17033.342,"end":17052.694,"text":"董事長好還有部長這個之前我們在這個總諮詢的時候有提到我們均衡台灣裡面我覺得最重要的一點就是水的部分那現在全國的自來水普及率大概是95%但是再加一線我們山區的自來水這還有14000多戶目前是沒有這個接管的狀況"},{"start":17053.815,"end":17079.06,"text":"特別是我要舉幾個鄉鎮希望說部長也把這些鄉鎮記在腦海裡因為它是我們嘉義重要的鄉鎮也是我們全國一樣重要的景區包含大埔鄉、阿里山鄉、梅山鄉這些自來水的戶數它未接用的戶數還是高於供水戶數特別是大埔鄉我要強調它是真文水庫的所在地"},{"start":17079.62,"end":17095.101,"text":"也就是說他們在水庫旁邊卻沒有辦法使用到自來水所以這是一個非常嚴肅的問題我也認為說他是在我們均衡台灣裡面來把這個城鄉差距這個消擬掉一個非常重要的一步那當然在這幾年我們看到說"},{"start":17095.962,"end":17125.402,"text":"有在變化為什麼過去就是以每戶的戶數從60萬到平均費用60萬才做到80萬就可以做到現在是到100萬元就可以做我們看到說政府對於弱勢地區是有在進展但是我還是要誠懇的請這個董事長務必要把我們嘉義縣山區的這個部分納入明年無自來水的地區的沿管工程的計劃案那這邊有稍微整理一下上述的幾個鄉大埔鄉、梅山鄉、花園鄉、愛里山鄉、朱祺鄉"},{"start":17126.383,"end":17142.219,"text":"這些鄉鎮都是在我國最重要的阿里山的這個相關的風景區裡面所以這些居民們儘管在山區但是他們需要受到我們一樣的關注這個部分部長跟董事長是不是可以承諾來全力的來去把這個部分來完成"},{"start":17144.429,"end":17161.562,"text":"謝謝委員對於關心建在縣山區這幾個鄉鎮的用水那我們已經有調查過大概我們有提了12個案件已經報給水利署8月報給水利署希望納入5期明年能夠辦"},{"start":17162.324,"end":17186.748,"text":"謝謝 謝謝董事長 董事長我特別要強調最後一點就是就是說大埔鄉在曾文水沽 看得到水 喝不到水 這有點遺憾 儘快 儘速 我們會儘快儘速來處理這件事情大埔鄉 竹崎鄉 梅山鄉 方若鄉 阿里山鄉 都在山區 那過去城鄉差距很大 那經過幾個政府的努力 我們相信可以把它 一步一步把它做好 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員 部長請回座"},{"start":17191.894,"end":17193.015,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":17220.37,"end":17245.854,"text":"麻煩請經濟部長請經濟部國務部長好 部長今天大家都非常好奇就是說為什麼你對台積電特別有興趣啊你可不可以講一下為什麼你對台積電特別有興趣對台積電有興趣因為台積電是台灣的護國神山嘛對 當然啊那你一直要去了解什麼"},{"start":17247.399,"end":17270.854,"text":"你不是去熊本嗎?然後去幫忙,那是幫忙什麼事?幫忙他第一個,台積電是從台灣第一個到日本這麼大投資的公司我們當然希望他在那你做什麼具體有幫助到他的事情?幫助他?對!不然你去幹嘛?我當時瞭解他適不適應啊瞭解他適不適應,那後來你瞭解狀況怎麼樣?"},{"start":17272.182,"end":17278.251,"text":"了解到事況還不錯還不錯就是還不錯其實我對日本是非常了解的我大概這一輩子工作了50年"},{"start":17280.591,"end":17302.042,"text":"49年都是跟日本在在網台積電是我以前就非常熟悉的公司但是台積電過去在日本並琢磨的不深特別是在九州地區九州是一個比較保守的地區不像東京或者是明谷或者大阪是比較接觸國外比較多的"},{"start":17302.742,"end":17325.084,"text":"所以在九州地區唯一接觸比較多的市貸運輔市貸運輔 那個趙薇對我很不友善大家看過了喔你就直接講你到底去看了什麼然後幫助到台積電什麼嘛因為你現在不是商人嘛你現在是部長嘛部長就是政府的職位你去協助一個護國生大家很棒可是你講一下你到底"},{"start":17326.706,"end":17348.244,"text":"你不是說我去觀光我去了解然後以後回到業界之後這些知識對我有幫助我在部長累積到我未來做生意的知識這樣不行嘛對不起委員那我來跟你報告你很簡單講一下好不好好因為台積電去到日本被要求60%的材料是要從日本買的是"},{"start":17348.985,"end":17363.357,"text":"但是台積電在台灣他們發展60%的材料是跟台灣買的是所以我要幫助台灣的供應鏈進入到日本現在進入不了嗎沒有進入不了但是你進去那現在成效怎麼樣你進去"},{"start":17364.966,"end":17384.696,"text":"你進去然後你還不要幫助他我懂了我懂了所以你的意思是說你去不是幫助台積電阿你去是幫助台灣的供應鏈的廠商去被日本的人買嘛那現在成效怎麼樣成效還沒開始還沒開始你們都不讓我去阿喔那你去就那你設定的成效是怎麼樣"},{"start":17385.416,"end":17388.419,"text":"上一次在我們院會的時候你特別請假禮拜二到禮拜五跑去熊本"},{"start":17401.149,"end":17418.128,"text":"故意迴避總諮詢我沒有故意回避總諮詢為什麼那一次要特別請2到5因為2到5就可以迴避嘛你為什麼不是1到4為什麼不是假日去那你去現在問你成效如何你說因為你們不讓我去所以講不出的說意所以你一個一年要去幾次你才滿意"},{"start":17419.636,"end":17440.49,"text":"答標為止答標那去幾次要去幾次嘛那要去對阿我現在覺得你是去玩的阿因為你就拿不出具體成像出來阿對不起這個委員我再跟你請我再跟你請這樣我給你因為你沒有講去都有報告去都有報告一天跑幾個行程都有報告你剛剛就講不出來我跟你講如果說"},{"start":17441.391,"end":17448.134,"text":"明確答案很明確的話,部長,不是因為你從外開空開,你從盤古開開講起,我們問題都很明確,我們時間很有限,如果我今天有20分鐘,如果今天是一個談話會,我讓你慢慢講,那我們時間很有限,那我再跟你請教一下,因為美國商務部說啦,有66億美元是補助台積電在美國的,"},{"start":17463.291,"end":17486.002,"text":"然後希望臺電的A16先進技術製程要在美國,您有掌握到這個事嗎?我知道那你覺得這對台灣會有什麼影響?沒有影響那是好的影響嗎?因為我剛在別的地方,你們次長講說這是好的影響當然啊為什麼?因為他還需要台灣啊所以,那會不會讓台灣的產業外移不可能啊A16的這個研發室在台灣有8000人對"},{"start":17489.191,"end":17491.893,"text":"要完整的技術才有辦法移轉過去阿好 謝謝部長請回座"},{"start":17533.586,"end":17545.035,"text":"這個主席主持會議不管是哪個政黨不管是誰我都是一樣的標準剛正不惡絕對不會對特定人不友善"},{"start":17546.186,"end":17573.751,"text":"那我在講說的時候在這邊要說一些正經話不要說太多淘氣話這樣畢竟這是國會殿堂好登記發言委員除不在場之外其餘基因發言完畢詢答結束委員林德福所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答案部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答問並複製本會"},{"start":17575.612,"end":17604.654,"text":"各位同仁,針對台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣自來水股份有限公司預算案,如有修正動議或相關提案,請於11月26日下午10點以前,送經濟委員會辦公室,以立後續會診,欲時不在所案。本日所列討論事項,詢答結束,並定期繼續審查。現在三位,祝大家有個美好的一天。"},{"start":17607.988,"end":17608.169,"text":"主席"},{"start":17639.717,"end":17640.058,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17670.304,"end":17671.247,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"157211","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157211","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eabbf31e18197842a98399d0c714afe65c37384dc14fd4f58a5c7b66ba030a8f37c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"12:18:20 - 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委員,今天承蒙貴委員會聯席會議,邀請就本部前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期的特別預算執行情形及成效列席來做報告,敬各位委員不吝指教。本部第4期的前瞻基礎建設計畫共45項,特別預算580張,"},{"start":2741.135,"end":2744.636,"text":"已達到1082百分比,為加速計畫如期如此達成目標與預期效益,本部逐月召開公共建設推動匯報,管控中央"},{"start":2764.023,"end":2772.531,"text":"禮成碑及確保工程品質逐項計畫檢討執行進度與問題,協助執行落後計畫提出因應對策,排除困難。此外,執行期間並依據廣考作業準則等規定於每季提報執行進度,送國外會証,11年提出年度"},{"start":2786.043,"end":2805.24,"text":"指定績效檢討報告送大院來備查,僅就主要建設計畫執行的狀況及成效分數如下。水環境計畫水環境建設包含水與發展、水與安全及水與環境。第一到四期可"},{"start":2806.243,"end":2834.915,"text":"可增供常態水源每日40.74萬噸等可以改善相關的淹水的面積23.72、27平方公里營造清水空間452.27億元所以環境發展主要是辦理否則原水管、鳥水潭、人工湖以及白河水庫的更新改善增溫、南化、聯通管等水資源建設"},{"start":2837.154,"end":2852.069,"text":"以因應庫案的缺水風險及供應發展所需要的用水。水與安全主要輔助直轄市縣市管河川排水治理第4期以完成提防庫案及排水路的改善 。"},{"start":2854.417,"end":2883.345,"text":"公里增加自容空間45萬餘立方公尺改善淹水面積121.7平方公里所以環境為補助縣市政府辦理水域周遭還有淨水及清水等水環境改善工程再來綠能建設部分配合2050年進行轉型的一個政策本部前瞻計畫投入支援協助開發國內再生能源強化電力系統整合與儲能電網的部件"},{"start":2884.165,"end":2908.723,"text":"擴大碳封存等前瞻技術的開發其中強化電網運轉彈性公共建設計畫第4期已經完成龍潭變電所及東山變電所的儲能系統可依系統頻率高低、自動充放電另外,高雄海洋科技產業創新專區已經在110年1月11日啟用"},{"start":2914.387,"end":2926.417,"text":"海上中心引進包含水下技術服務及運維的技術。仁培中心已經取得國際風能組織及離岸遊器行業訓練機構訓練場域的國際驗證。"},{"start":2929.7,"end":2947.482,"text":"另外推動碳循環關鍵技術開發計畫以及減碳場域示範技術的一個計畫建立國內自主碳循環的一個技術第4期已經與中鋼、中油、啟美等公司合作建置5項的碳輔作利用"},{"start":2948.283,"end":2949.465,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":2963.012,"end":2965.693,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算．"},{"start":2988.744,"end":2990.966,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":3012.742,"end":3028.108,"text":"中小企業5G創新應用服務計畫以協助中小企業接軌5G創新應用服務及擴大創新應用場域共帶動4,576家的中小企業參與另外城鄉建設的部分本部推動強化"},{"start":3029.548,"end":3054.129,"text":"地方工業區公共設施補助方案與設置平價產業園區補助方案第一期到第4期已經同意補助138案共122.89億元另外為了新增生產研發空間與產業用地本部也推動提升加工區的用地效能創新產業升級計畫"},{"start":3056.807,"end":3077.381,"text":"另外,推動城鄉特色產業發展計畫及推動中小企業城鄉創新轉型計畫,總共第4期協助城鄉創生業者1,112家。另外,在人才培育促進就業建設的部分,本部透過客製化培訓、代案實作等,"},{"start":3078.021,"end":3093.974,"text":"等培育的方式引進企業數位轉型能力的中高階領導人才。另外,第4期共計培育4041人並充裕企業轉型所需要的新科技、軟體人才共計4780位。"},{"start":3095.996,"end":3123.735,"text":"另外透過補助企業開設優質的職階以實習的方式來培育學生銜接報考IPAS的能力鑑定最後軌道建設部分在112年的10月7號已經完成嘉義蒜頭糖廠五分車的延始故宮南苑軌道工程的通車可以活絡地方的光光以上報告敬請各位委員指正視角"},{"start":3125.413,"end":3130.44,"text":"另外針對第5期特別預算的一個編列的這個部分"},{"start":3134.093,"end":3159.292,"text":"在水環境建設總共編列138.57億元包括水與發展的部分是辦理水庫防禦的隧道以及供水系統改善及集水區保育治理等水資源的一個工程在水與安全的部分是持續辦理直轄市縣市管河川排水治理海岸防護等"},{"start":3160.193,"end":3160.854,"text":"提供新規範圍及新規範圍及新規範圍"},{"start":3171.763,"end":3183.81,"text":"第二項綠能建設部分總共編列16.75億元,總共有下列五項時間的關係我就簡略第三項數位建設編列37.08億元,總共有三大項計畫,請委員參閱第四項是編列推廣數位公益的服務,總共編列兩項計畫"},{"start":3197.116,"end":3226.016,"text":"曾襄建設編列13.5億元包括開發在地型的產業園區以及公共服務據點的一個整備最後一項人才培育促進就業建設編列0.96億元以上本期所編列的計畫是當前整體經濟發展與治水工程所需要急需落實推動,懇請各位委員先進會議支持與指教"},{"start":3227.778,"end":3242.556,"text":"謝謝何次長其實我們下面報告的時候第4期的部分大概注重報告這個執行率然後講一下第5期要做什麼3到5分鐘好謝謝就請交通部的林次長"},{"start":3254.864,"end":3283.252,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天亦要就交中央政府前瞻基礎建設第4期特別預算執行成效跟第5期編列請行跟各位委員會做專題報告進行各位委員指教那有關交通部主管前瞻計畫第4期特別預算部分本部主管的第4期特別預算共36項計畫編列695.837億元包含軌道、綠能、城鄉、數位及水環境建設等五大類別"},{"start":3284.452,"end":3304.301,"text":"引下各項計畫執行情形做檢要報告第一、軌道建設部分本部主管計畫包含台鐵、高鐵的連結城網、台鐵升級跟改善東部服務、鐵路立體化跟通勤提訴都市推動捷運、中南部觀光鐵路及軌道規劃作業等6大項、25項計畫總共編列511.616億元"},{"start":3309.083,"end":3324.689,"text":"節制一、三年九月底累計分配數是385.535億元執行數389.919億元這個執行率超過100%主要是含已執行應付未付數那中央執行成效包含安坑縣青軌"},{"start":3326.07,"end":3346.864,"text":"已於112年2月10日通車。淡海清軌綠山線在107年12月24日通車。南海線第一期109年11月15日通車。臺北都會區三陰線的部分已完成全線軌道的交織跟電聯車實施列的安全驗證。高雄都會區岡山路主沿線的部分第一階段"},{"start":3348.385,"end":3366.27,"text":"是R24到岡山車站RK1的部分在今年的6月30日通車。台北都會驅動檢驗系統萬大綜合樹林線的部分第二期工程分別在今年的3月1日開工跟28日進行開工典禮。"},{"start":3369.031,"end":3386.217,"text":"桃園都會區大眾捷運系統航空城捷運部分三標分別有相關進度請參閱。台南都會區鐵路地下化C214跟C213各有分別進度請參閱。台中都會區捷運南線計畫完成基本設計審議。"},{"start":3387.597,"end":3401.602,"text":"第二大項綠能建設部分包含營造深度減碳運輸環境及打造低耗能交通場域及公共充電窗設置及區域充電需求評估計畫兩項編列10.6億元至9月底為止分配數5.399,執行率82.63,執行成效請參約"},{"start":3410.686,"end":3428.904,"text":"城鄉建設的部分本部主管包含停車問題的改善提升道路品質計畫、海洋觀光計畫、油氣侵水跟觀光前瞻建設等五項計畫總共編例150.759億元截至9月底為止累計分配數109.622億元執行率110.639、執行率100%"},{"start":3432.913,"end":3439.76,"text":"重要成果的部分公路系統以合定683項分項計畫執行642項完工另外還有41項設計中預計明年114年全部執行完畢另外補助縣市政府優化道路1700公里"},{"start":3449.622,"end":3476.791,"text":"改善停車路問題的部分合訂各縣市整理規劃20件可進行評估59件補助20個縣市等請參與觀光前瞻的部分總共有24項亮點工程1月3年底完成12處亮點工程油氣清水計畫的部分港公司的部分在花蓮港、旅營大樓的部分在今年6月30號已經完成"},{"start":3477.831,"end":3481.394,"text":"社會建設部分編列4項計畫,編列19.748億元,累計到9月底為止執行17.068億元,執行率99%"},{"start":3490.131,"end":3506.975,"text":"另外,水環境的部分,配合水利署省道橋樑改善及油氣據點的建置兩項計畫,執行100%,其他部分請參閱。有關第5期預算的部分,請各位參閱另一本報告。這本報告我們編列了144.567億元,"},{"start":3514.012,"end":3523.959,"text":"軌道建設部分56.64億元,其中包含高鐵、彰化站及台鐵的轉行計畫3億4500萬元,辦理先期計畫及土地取得。淡海輕軌系統編列1.64億元,辦理先期計畫及專案管理建造。"},{"start":3532.344,"end":3558.042,"text":"台北都會區萬大綜合樹林縣部分第二期工程編列9億元辦理工程設計及相關配合工作桃園都會區當用捷運系統捷運綠線延伸到中壢火車站及土地整合計畫編列1.7億元辦理工程設計及施作高雄都會區岡山路竹延伸線第一階段及第二階段部分編列6.8億元辦理工程設計及施作"},{"start":3559.694,"end":3587.642,"text":"岡山路竹延伸線第二期2B的部分編列5730億元,辦理工程設計跟施作其他台磊集體支線、台南鐵路地下化、嘉義市鐵路高架化延伸以及機場捷域第三航站A14設置、軌道規劃等請參閱第二大廂城鄉建設編列76.991億元,包含海洋觀光、油氣清水、觀光油氣建設計畫改善停車問題等部分請參閱"},{"start":3589.562,"end":3596.386,"text":"第三大項綠營建設編1.545億元．包含氫燃料電池大客車示範運行計畫1.2億元．智慧電動巴士的部分編列3,450萬元．第四大項數位建設編列6.8億元．包含台灣光纜通道計畫4.8億元．民生公共物聯網數據跟都會區的強震預警系統．編列3,600億元．辦理地震的觀測系統設備．"},{"start":3619.119,"end":3638.359,"text":"第三項強化氣象資訊建設計畫編列8000萬元第4項編列5G提升效能的部分9000萬元第5項水環境建設編列2億5000萬元辦理縣市管河川跟區域排水2億5100萬元配合水利署來辦理整道橋樑改善"},{"start":3639.48,"end":3663.197,"text":"相關的建設計畫我們都透過強化審議跟規劃加強各計畫主辦機關的盤點以及定期召開重大工程督導會報來管控另外本部執行情會持續來檢討以上報告請各位委員會支持跟指教謝謝好謝謝林次長看交通部的執行率很高接著我們請內政部董事長"},{"start":3678.942,"end":3701.978,"text":"主席、各位委員及各位在場的政府同仁大家好請就前瞻基礎建設第4期特別預算本部執行狀況提出簡要報告請各位委員指教本部主管前瞻預算第4期特別預算執行內容包括水環境、綠能環境、數位建設與城鄉建設等4大類截至113年10月底為止總共執行數202億7千多萬元佔總分配額216億9千多萬元的93.42%"},{"start":3707.722,"end":3728.757,"text":"那其中在水環境的部分我們執行了縣市河川的下水道改善工程計畫那麼已經完成了水道改善工程221.7公里增加都市滯洪量12.33萬立方公尺那在水環境的部分我們整個的污水處置的方式包括從106年開始執行至今已經完成污水處理廠"},{"start":3730.118,"end":3744.931,"text":"功能提升規劃三座建置污水管線及檢視更新37,831公尺接管用戶累計47,366萬戶水環境改善17處營造清水空間65.40公頸其中第4期已經完成4個案子也可以完成水環境亮點1處在竹溪附近也創造清水空間受益人數達1300人以上"},{"start":3756.88,"end":3768.79,"text":"營造5.3公頃的清水環境提供3000㎥的滯洪空間在綠能建設的部分本部推動相關的綠能淨零轉型總共執行數1億8000多萬元舉辦了相關的研習會及培訓課程完成既有公有"},{"start":3775.815,"end":3798.694,"text":"建築物的能效評估達18件,計有建築物能效評估輔導計120件。在整個公有建築改善及避難空間的能效改善的部分,執行數4億1370萬元,已經完成補助中央政府15個機關以及地方政府20個機關的公有建築的能效改善,讓整個環境變得比較能節能。"},{"start":3799.915,"end":3807.847,"text":"有關數位建設的部分,內政部的雲世代雲端基礎建設總共執行數1491萬元,已經提供了514個系統的介接,年平均服務使用次數逾3.5億次。"},{"start":3816.82,"end":3832.121,"text":"在整個擴大災害訊息的部分,我們執行了1億1千多萬餘元,已經完成訊息平台與3家無線電視台的自動跑馬訊息的連結機制,也完成了119指揮系統派點重大案情的系統化及圖像化的優化。"},{"start":3833.843,"end":3848.871,"text":"災害防救及智慧應變系統執行數6,900餘萬元已經完成應變管理系統、全民防災一點通系統以及消防救災一點通系統等功能擴張,也配合國家防災日活動,扮演全國線網路演習。"},{"start":3852.192,"end":3873.824,"text":"警消微博網路系統移頻執行數4億3千餘萬元本部警政署的經營下已經完成了第一至第二期建設工程騰出4800百萬赫茲到4900百萬赫茲的頻道專攻5G使用今年年底也會完成第三階段移波騰出4700百萬赫茲到5000百萬赫茲的移波"},{"start":3879.467,"end":3899.999,"text":"本署的消防署的一波相關專案也已在今年10月的時候完成全國59站台的實地的查驗跟竣工在今年年底會完成全部的案件那在5G智慧警察行動服務計畫裡面我們執行數1億8900餘萬元那累積建置延展實境測訓9案SR的訓練達1000人次以上累積建置了22個警察"},{"start":3908.524,"end":3929.501,"text":"局的智慧化交通系統以及異地備份的系統一共108站等在消防5G場域的部分,我們執行了7100餘萬元,完成整個特種系統的開發在前瞻建設的部分,我們執行了108億5000餘萬元,已經完成無障礙空間的改善搭"},{"start":3930.021,"end":3955.635,"text":"一百零二點五四公里,綠化面積一萬多公頃公共道路排除障礙三百零七處等在城鄉風貌的部分,我們執行了十四點五七億已經合訂了四百五十一件新增級改善公園綠地約一百二十八公頃,新植橋木一萬多棵在加速推動地方創生的部分也合訂了三十一件公有建築補強的部分,我們也"},{"start":3956.816,"end":3970.771,"text":"執行了166件的內政評估補強工程45件以及拆除重建24件以上是本部有關第4期的部分在第5期的部分我們將編列相關的預算包括水環境34億、綠能建設5億5000萬、數位建設部分3257億"},{"start":3978.118,"end":4007.18,"text":"三千兩百五十七萬以及城鄉建設部分八十七億總共編列一百二十七億那希望能夠改善整個區域排水的部分以及綠能轉型還有數位建設希望將整個智慧防災跟雲端系統提升那在城鄉建設的部分我們特別提到我們將會編列六十五億的經費透過人本交通人本環境綠色交通生態路網還有智慧建設教育宣導等部分呢希望能夠提升整體生活環境的改善那對公有建築的部分我們也"},{"start":4008.842,"end":4022.198,"text":"針對這編列的22.3億來採算整個公有危險建築物的部分,那希望能夠獲得委員的支持。以上,謝謝。好,謝謝董事長。接著我們請數位發展部,黃部長,謝謝。"},{"start":4040.668,"end":4060.69,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生大家好今天就應邀就前瞻基礎建設本部第4期的特別預算執行情形及成效及本部主管部門進行報告深感榮幸跟請委員指教及支持"},{"start":4061.671,"end":4083.563,"text":"根據國家發展委員會行政院府計畫管理資訊網及國家科學技術委員會政府科技計畫資訊網的資料統計本部第4期的整體計畫執行率是95.24主要是建構開放政府及智慧城鄉服務基礎建設環境、產業數位轉型、數位人才淬鍊、5G"},{"start":4088.746,"end":4108.152,"text":"基礎公共建設、縮短5G偏鄉數位落差、推廣數位公益服務、人才培育促進就業等建設。以上就本部辦理中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期的預算做簡要報告。敬請各位委員予以支持及指教。"},{"start":4108.892,"end":4120.461,"text":"並祝各委員健康如意。在第5期的我們的預計要執行的計畫裡面在以下也做一些簡單的報告我們目前編列的計畫是47億5534萬6千元那幾個重要計畫我在這裡做一個簡單報告第一個是強化公部門網路服務與運算雲端基礎設施計畫"},{"start":4133.731,"end":4153.85,"text":"這個計畫編列了1,354萬5千元,為強化借街政府公共網路交換中心韌性及政府公有雲環境,以提升雲世代政府公共服務所需的雲端預算,儲存資料雲端服務,強化政府關鍵服務韌性及雲端服務品質,"},{"start":4157.073,"end":4181.566,"text":"一、管理及硬體的維護成本．二、政府及基層數位韌性強化計畫強化偏鄉通訊網路可用性．這個計畫編列了4800萬元．為確保通訊服務的可用性．提升偏鄉、益城、孤島地區的通訊網路的韌性．使民眾在災害、災難的時候能夠隨時取得可用的資訊．"},{"start":4183.247,"end":4208.556,"text":"社會、經濟及國家安全提高整體通訊網路韌性第三個計畫是補助5G網路建設計畫這個計畫編列了26億9351萬5千元這是為了驅動台灣數位轉型使民眾能夠享受到高速行動網路及智慧生活的便利我國自110年就開始推動5G前瞻計畫"},{"start":4210.337,"end":4231.542,"text":"透過協助電信業者進行5G建設．加速完善我國的數位基盤．必利產業數位轉型．並發展多樣化的應用服務．下一個計畫是強化偏鄉地區行動寬頻網路．韌性及禁用的基礎建設建置計畫．編列了2億2500萬元．"},{"start":4236.112,"end":4248.738,"text":"契用於偏鄉地區建置90台以上的行動基地台以強化偏遠地區行動網路的韌性確保偏鄉居民的數位禁用權利、縮短數位城鄉落差"},{"start":4250.233,"end":4267.219,"text":"第六計畫是《台灣資安卓越深耕資安卓越中心計畫》編列1億5800萬元。這個計畫主要目的是規劃設立資安卓越中心作為亞太高階資安人才及技術創新的基地以加速我國產業創新"},{"start":4270.08,"end":4273.505,"text":"及升級的指導,並完備5加2產業與發展創新產品及服務的過程,融入資安防護及設計。政府及基層數位韌性強化計畫"},{"start":4288.83,"end":4311.037,"text":"機關資安防護提升計畫編列5億5千4百萬元為強化數位關鍵基礎建設安全防護推動數位韌性科技建置全國性資通安全業務推動系統下個計畫是普及城鄉生活應用計畫編列2億元透過公司協力我國智慧應用"},{"start":4311.96,"end":4331.511,"text":"服務解決方案於國內場域淬鏈之後擴散並輸出海外加速完善智慧城鄉產業生態鏈協助業者優化我國行動智慧應用方案以促進行動智慧應用生態及帶動整體數位經濟的市場發展再下一個計畫是引領中小企業數位轉型戰略攻頂計畫編列的5億4千萬元"},{"start":4343.044,"end":4359.901,"text":"系就同管理各行各業數位轉型政策的資源培育數位青年打造數位人才庫並針對跨域議題進行推動鼓勵各行各業提升數位營運能力辦理數位創新主題等"},{"start":4362.481,"end":4377.347,"text":"下個計畫是AI應用與人才催電計畫編列了1億6千萬元提升AI新創團隊的技術能力及優化商業模式發展商品化AI解決方案、鏈接產業工協會推動產業推行AI應用實地驗證與建立示範案例"},{"start":4384.895,"end":4396.245,"text":"最後說明的是數位特殊技術人才發展編列4,0286,000元是鏈接國內產學資源以資訊服務為數位轉型的顧問養成短期研習及交流舉辦數位科技與相關發展會加強培育數位轉型顧問國際化"},{"start":4410.698,"end":4431.089,"text":"數位產業人才以及產育新興科技應用人才協助加速國內產業數位轉型以上就本部辦理中央政府前瞻計畫第5期特別預算報告敬請各位委員會與支持及指教並祝各位委員健康如意謝謝謝謝黃部長接著我們請農業部陳部長"},{"start":4447.151,"end":4461.304,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天奉邀到大院參加中央預算前瞻基礎建設第4期的報告及第5期的預算審查那以下警舊本部執行相關的業務請請做以下報告"},{"start":4462.267,"end":4483.468,"text":"那有關於本部執行前瞻計畫裡面大概整個第4期的經費是編列65.99億那辦理的項目包括軌道建設、水環境、綠能、數位、城鄉等五類別的八項計畫那第一個部分是軌道計畫最主要是執行阿里山林越鐵路的設施設備的一個改善那辦理的"},{"start":4484.648,"end":4506.274,"text":"內容最主要的包括整個路線的結構、邊坡安全的監測、車輛的構置及車站設施的一個整建的情形。整個成效阿里山已經在今年7月6號全線通車,透過本計畫可以提升整個林鐵的一個沿線的安全,包括乘客的體驗與軟硬體的品質的服務的升等。"},{"start":4506.954,"end":4515.955,"text":"第二個部分有關於水環境的部分最主要的執行部的計畫是縣市管河川及排水整體的一個改善"},{"start":4517.004,"end":4541.849,"text":"整個經費是約25億,殖水率達到百分之百。到目前為止,第4期的成效最主要是能夠降低積水區內的崩塌地及中高土石流的檢視區的災害,並增加整個溪岸穩定保持溪流的斷面溝通。整個的情形在"},{"start":4543.274,"end":4559.764,"text":"全國的一個水環境計畫裡面那最主要是營造整個清水的一個空間那同時處理蓄分尿、多元利用及致雲共同化處理中心的一個建制那目前正依照民間的出產法及公共建設辦理前期的一個規劃"},{"start":4561.147,"end":4580.534,"text":"有關於綠能的建設的部分,包括研發我們農業部門的碳位的技術及誘因,主要的經費是7.68億元,殖均力是91.69億元,整個的工作內容大概分為幾個部分,第一個部分是完成全台土壤表層的"},{"start":4583.995,"end":4609.147,"text":"同時並篩選出有關於高碳會的一個靈系的品種跟適合綠葉地的一個適中的一個作物的一個品種那同時並釐清海洋碳會形成的整合的一個機制那在今年我們已經提送了五種就是有關於方法學的部分包括森林經營、竹林經營等的方法學已經在今年的10月28號通過"},{"start":4609.747,"end":4617.725,"text":"那後續三項的部分我想在明年度一定可以完成那第四個部分數位計畫的部分是有關於民生公共物聯網的一個應用"},{"start":4619.58,"end":4637.134,"text":"那最主要是在新竹竹東的一個郡路裡面做示範區應用新興科技去導入整個的一個郡路的一個控管然後建置整個水溫的一個監測那第二個部分是有關於公部門的服務網絡運算及基礎建設的一個設置計畫那這個計畫經費是0.59億那整個資金率是83.95"},{"start":4644.079,"end":4664.233,"text":"主要的一個成果是建置高效能的農業空間的影像的一個倉儲雲端的服務然後同時改善我們整個的一個農情的一個調查透過的一個雲端的建置可以提供我們中央級地方在農業決策上的一個依據第三個部分是有關於農業物聯網的一個計畫那最主要是"},{"start":4665.58,"end":4693.967,"text":"延續第三期的一個成果已經累積了80個農業物聯網的場域那同時也增加智慧導入到整個的養豬場及屠宰場的一個監管的部分同時我們也降低了提高了相關的新增率的一個的減減那在推動人物物聯網的技術擴散部分那目前針對臺灣智慧州的智慧場域裡面我們也透過了智慧場域促進相關的一個投資"},{"start":4696.98,"end":4725.859,"text":"第4個最主要的物聯網的預期的作用相關於延續第三期的部分那接下來報告第5期的相關的編列總共編列了42.25億元那最主要是同樣延續第4期加強水庫及水區的保育還有縣市管核酸及排水區域的一個改善那同時針對全國水環境的改善計畫民生公共物聯網的部分那整個水環境的部分大概編列6億元"},{"start":4727.02,"end":4749.718,"text":"那相關的縣市管河川編列的31.82億元那主要的是針對國有林地的一個治理還有波地的水土資源的保育以及水產養殖的一個排水治理還有農田排水、埤塘進入的一個改善那針對數位建設的部分最主要是針對民生公共物聯網的一個建設那同時"},{"start":4751.348,"end":4776.588,"text":"我們針對強化公部門網路服務及運算的一個基礎建制那最主要第5期的預計的一個成果是以前期裡面所做的多元的土地的一個即時的一個限地調查及透過航遙測影像配合AI的建制能夠提升我們整個農業部及所屬機關及縣市政府對農地利用及農作物生產管理情形做有效的利用"},{"start":4777.15,"end":4799.918,"text":"那有關於公共危險建築的部分最主要是針對高雄市動保處本身的一個環境辦公室的一個內政的一個評估那以向有關於第5期的預算那最主要是配合整個中央跟地方的相關的重大建設那進行委員支持謝謝謝謝陳部長接著我們請教育部鄭部長、鄭英耀部長"},{"start":4816.317,"end":4839.636,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家早安今天應邀就中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫有關本部主管部分第4期特別預算執行情形及成效及第5期特別預算案編列情形進請各位委員會執導以支持以下請就簡要報告一、前瞻基礎設計"},{"start":4843.243,"end":4868.037,"text":"基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效12年度至13年度本部主管共辦理10項計畫包括在數位建設方面辦理高級中等學校智慧網路環境及學術網路提升校園5G示範教室與學習載具強化公部門網路服務與運算雲端基礎建設實施計畫"},{"start":4869.758,"end":4891.891,"text":"台灣學術網路服務優化等五項計畫預算約22億元在城鄉建設方面辦理充實全民運動環境、校園社區化改造、公有危險建築補強重建等四項計畫預算約30億元人才培育促進就業建設方面辦理2030雙移"},{"start":4894.292,"end":4908.772,"text":"政策加速提升學生英語能力計畫預算約70億元合計共編列預算123億元一二年至一三年第三季指整體計畫"},{"start":4910.458,"end":4919,"text":"經會累計執行98億元,佔累計分配數106億元的92.69%,將持續加強執行,達成各項政策及計畫的一個效益。第二,在前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算編列情形本部共編列41億元分3個項目來報告。一、"},{"start":4940.083,"end":4954.333,"text":"在數位建設方面,第5期特別預算編列8.2億元持續辦理強化公部門網路服務與運算雲端基礎建設、台灣學術網路服務優化、高級中等學校"},{"start":4955.234,"end":4980.791,"text":"智慧網路環境及學術網路提升、強化智慧學習及教學以及校園5G示範教室與學習載具等4項計畫強化台灣學術網路架構及服務韌性提供更穩定及安全的網路服務以發展數位化教學及學習環境並強化全國高級中等學校教師資訊教學能力以利"},{"start":4981.892,"end":5006.837,"text":"學校教師生以數位學習及跨領域教學資源創新應用、傳播、合作與分享並持續透過5G推動遠宇宙教育應用的發展遠距虛擬直播共學資源偏鄉學校學生之沉浸式體驗學習以消敏城鄉數位落差二、在城鄉建設方面"},{"start":5008.078,"end":5023.147,"text":"編列4.1億元持續輔導公共圖書館執行耐震能力改善工作及補助公共圖書館耐震能力補強工程等,協助地方政府加速提升公共圖書館建築耐震能力"},{"start":5025.37,"end":5040.205,"text":"一、四年度預計補助45間公共圖書館辦理內政補強工作增進建築物耐久性與安全性維護民眾公共安全三、在人才培育方面編列28.7億元本部持續與國家"},{"start":5045.743,"end":5064.307,"text":"發展委員會共同推動雙贏政策,為培育臺灣人才、接軌國際強化人才的雙贏能力及提升競爭力以高教階段將補助四所全校型標竿計畫、三所全校型重點培育計畫、九所領域型標竿計畫、十五所領域型"},{"start":5067.088,"end":5086.784,"text":"重點計畫及30所普及提升計畫令國教階段增進雙語教學實施品質及提升英語教師教學能量預計114年培育1500位雙語教師協助推動高級中等學校以下學校應用英語教學"},{"start":5087.845,"end":5116.924,"text":"英語進行學習、擴增高級中等學校雙語實驗班、建立國內外高級中等學校合作基礎等計畫在終身學習方面則持續自播線上英語學習節目預計114年累計自播超過1萬集讓民眾在生活中可以隨時隨地學習英語以上報告,敬請各位委員持續指教與支持感謝也祝福大家健康平安謝謝"},{"start":5118.287,"end":5118.588,"text":"國客會務主委"},{"start":5146.917,"end":5172.391,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早安城門大院財政委員會安排列席報告深感榮幸接下來緊就我們前瞻特別預算第4期執行情形及成效以及第5期編列狀況跟各位報告國科會第4期的前瞻特別預算"},{"start":5174.239,"end":5180.464,"text":"在各計畫的進度符合原來的規劃,截至113年9月底,經費執行率達到99.6%"},{"start":5187.878,"end":5216.797,"text":"本會肩負規劃全國科技發展的任務持續推動數位建設及人才培育促進就業建設計畫希望為台灣科技發展奠定根基我們在第4期編列的這個計畫總共有11項包含民生公共、物聯網、數據應用及產業開展強化公部門網路服務與運算基礎設施"},{"start":5218.979,"end":5230.975,"text":"海覽及5G雲端聯網中心資安卓越深耕學術型資安研究突破半導體物理極限與鏈結AI世代"},{"start":5232.148,"end":5259.722,"text":"以及安生四代前瞻半導體及量子技術研發計畫顯示科技研發與人才培育其中在民生公共物聯網主要是國科會主辦在強化工部門網路服務與運算基礎設施是跟數化部一起合作以上這些數位建設的計畫"},{"start":5261.864,"end":5284.801,"text":"其實我們有大部分是在協助我們的學術界提出這個學術研究的這個申請那另外還有人才培育的部分重點產業高階人才培訓青年科技創新創業基地建設計畫年輕學者養成計畫這邊也是屬於高階人才在培育"},{"start":5285.842,"end":5300.97,"text":"包含搭配在產學合作的部分也協助產業界在承接我們科技研發成果做高科技產業發展的後盾那在綠能的部分我們有一個科學層公共建設計畫這個屬於我們在沙崙地區國務院負責做這個建設的計畫"},{"start":5309.11,"end":5329.261,"text":"那以上我剛剛報告就是各個計畫我們現在總結在9月底執行率達到99.6%總共編列的預算是54億那再跟大院來報告就是我們在第5期前瞻計畫承襲第4期最後幾個計畫最後階段的這個"},{"start":5332.984,"end":5351.421,"text":"這個建設總共編列了16.81億在114年其中只有一項是新增這個新增計畫是基於我們在教文委員會委員的強烈的建議必須要增加台灣的AI運算的順利所以我們開始在114年啟動"},{"start":5353.303,"end":5365.994,"text":"一個綠能為基礎的新的AI資料中心的建設編了1.8億的這個預算啟動相關的這個規劃那後續我們會編入我們的正常的科技預算在後續幾年會執行所以到第5期的計畫114年我們總共編列了1.86億"},{"start":5382.834,"end":5410.509,"text":"國科會是驅動產業發展的核心動能而前瞻基礎建設計畫為強化國家韌性構建產業前瞻技術開發及跨域高階人才培育的重要基石對於我國長遠發展實質關鍵預算有其必要懇請大院肯定支持同意本案之預算案謝謝"},{"start":5412.469,"end":5416.95,"text":"好 謝謝吳主委最後一位 文化部李部長"},{"start":5435.971,"end":5454.287,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天我就中央政府前瞻預算第4期特別預算執行情況跟成效做專題報告深感榮幸文化部本期特別預算主管計畫截至113年9月分配到的數字是41.29億"},{"start":5457.069,"end":5483.129,"text":"執行了40.08億計畫經費執行率97.07以下簡單的就辦理情況執行情況跟大家報告第一個我們執行的是數位建設計畫部分包括一、國家文化記憶庫及數位博物館應用計畫第二、5G文化科技人才培育及跨域應用計畫第三、5G內容"},{"start":5485.28,"end":5502.055,"text":"內容力與技術力跨域創新生態計畫第4、營運場域之5G創新應用領域計畫第5、文化科技5G創新垂直應用產業建構及營運計畫第6、強化公部門網路服務與運算雲端基礎設施計畫"},{"start":5509.943,"end":5514.894,"text":"第二大項是城鄉建設計畫部分第一個是文化生活圈建設計畫"},{"start":5516.977,"end":5542.17,"text":"其中包括文化保存、重建臺灣藝術史、地方管升級計畫、地方特色人口培育計畫第二項是加速推動地方創生計畫這是我簡單報告我們第4期的執行情況前瞻第5期延續第4期的一些執行的事情一共編列了13.84億包括數位建設"},{"start":5545.772,"end":5567.233,"text":"二點八三億元及城鄉建設十一點零一億元這個延續了前面的沒有做完的部分一、數位建設計畫部分包括強化工部門網路服務與運算雲端基礎設施計畫編列了零點零七億元第二個"},{"start":5568.354,"end":5596.176,"text":"引應產業之5G創新應用領航計畫編列了1.6億元。第三,5G內容力與技術力跨域創新生態系列計畫編列了0.4億元。第四,國家文化基金庫及數位博物館應用計畫編列了0.76億元。這些都是延續第4期計畫沒有做完的部分。"},{"start":5596.772,"end":5623.844,"text":"第二大項是城鄉建設計畫部分這個部分分成幾個項目第一個大項是文化生活圈建設計畫9億元這一項是辦理地方上文化保存、地方管轍升級、地方文化特色及英文人口培育建立文化生活圈、促進公民參與、落實文化平權主要推動的情況一、再造歷史現場"},{"start":5625.816,"end":5649.97,"text":"前面4期一共合併96案也一一完成第二、地方管轄升級計畫第三、地方文化特色及藝文人口培育計畫培養藝文欣賞人口及藝術專業人才提升縣市文化中心演藝場所專業營運能力第二大項就是公共服務據點整備計畫2.01億"},{"start":5655.009,"end":5681.064,"text":"這個預算是補助地方政府辦理博物館、美術館及展覽館等藝文場所耐政評估及補強工程以改善公有建設耐政能力以上是我們文化部第5期前瞻預算的編列及計畫推動情況我們的預算幾乎全部用在地方希望大院支持謝謝"},{"start":5682.605,"end":5709.039,"text":"好 謝謝李部長好 我們現在開始詢答先做一下宣告本會委員每位委員聯席委員會委員發言時間4分鐘必要時延長1分鐘4加1列席委員發言4分鐘10點半截止登記現在依照登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員"},{"start":5725.871,"end":5726.812,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":5738.24,"end":5746.183,"text":"市長因為交通部觀光署2021至2025年自資65億8500萬辦理觀光前瞻建設計畫但是審計部在決算報告的時候卻指出觀光署先期規劃作業未盡確實也未落實審查的作業導致整個補助計畫"},{"start":5764.072,"end":5773.759,"text":"審查通過後因工程用地無法取得或規劃設計沒有嚴謹、不力達成原定的效益。竹記長,對於審計部針對觀光前瞻計畫決算報告的說法,竹記長有沒有掌握整個預算執行的狀況?有沒有?"},{"start":5789.991,"end":5798.033,"text":"委員好因為我們在整個執行率來講其實是都超過95%那麼原來的計畫也跟審計部相關單位做一個說明跟報告因為有些確實在用地上在這個地方政府相關的權責裡面"},{"start":5819.639,"end":5847.053,"text":"委員也很清楚就是說有些景區的景點的改善有些是老問題所以它涉及到一些用地、協調、相關單位那你們開始的時候應該要先去溝通協調結果你們現在那你們總是沒有辦法執行那也不必究責那後續你們要如何去善後呢這些都有評估過所以這些我們還是持續克服但預算執行的部分還是都能夠達成"},{"start":5849.048,"end":5849.288,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5861.887,"end":5884.572,"text":"委員指教的是哪一個計畫就是交通部觀光署2021到2025這個觀光全餐計畫裡面但是審計部報告只出來啊審計部報告裡面他有些對有些他有些譬如說日月潭的部分有些有困難也跟說明了你事後提個書面計畫給本席好不好是那個主席長好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":5887.734,"end":5906.852,"text":"來,媒體報導今年地震跟颱風重創花蓮的觀光那交通部振興花蓮自由行補助方案也推動到這個3.0版本那總計有8.15億元就是8億多的預算在年底以前要用完"},{"start":5907.873,"end":5920.434,"text":"但目前只有執行差不多六成而已我請問主席長針對花蓮自由行補助方案的預算執行你認為問題出在哪裡"},{"start":5921.85,"end":5948.609,"text":"因為這個部分主要是動資第二預備金那這個部分我們也是一直督促說希望在動資二預備金的部分能夠在年底的能夠盡量把它執行但是目前花蓮最大的問題就是年外的交通沒有辦法引導整個旅客的前往那為了讓預算能夠發揮實質的效益請問交通問題短期內可以解決嗎因為你要去有困難啊"},{"start":5950.405,"end":5966.082,"text":"交通問題這個部分還是要看交通部它整個一個規劃的一個情形來辦啦那這個部分我們是不是交通部能夠代表來做說明不能說只有一雙框在那裡那你們目前執行只有六成而已現在已經11月下旬了捏"},{"start":5966.983,"end":5970.526,"text":"因為花蓮年外交通如果還是最大的問題按照花蓮今年已經有21家旅館業停業那有10家暫時退場或轉租有將近四分之一的業者的變動那明年補助又停止的話"},{"start":5995.845,"end":6020.222,"text":"那請問面對明年花蓮觀光可能出現倒閉潮甚至於是四月潮那你認為有哪些辦法可以來避免出現這些骨牌的效應再跟委員報告一下因為這個涉及到預算執行的一個內容和它的細節是不是還是請交通部的業務單位來做報告比較詳細這個部分因為我認為說像這些部分存在的問題你政府"},{"start":6025.265,"end":6025.605,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6046.707,"end":6076.247,"text":"出國的人去觀光旅遊比在國內的多一倍這笑死人了你說觀光我一直認為說其實觀光局、觀光署你們過去這段時間你們就是沒有把原來這些觀光的點把它做好你看包括嘉義阿里山那裡你們沒有查清楚結果你看這一次在那裡旅遊的人摔下去一個人死掉"},{"start":6077.55,"end":6080.318,"text":"那 很多都沒有去改善 也沒有去重視 對不對"},{"start":6085.758,"end":6104.205,"text":"這個部分就是因為交通部他有答覆說這個部分是屬於鄉公所的一些設施啦那這個部分他們會這樣對啦我是認為這都要去重視啦因為振興花蓮有部分實質上的難度但如果是提升我國這項這個高教總體競爭力請問主計長你認為現階段有沒有推動高教前瞻計畫的必要性"},{"start":6110.987,"end":6113.59,"text":"因為上個禮拜台大校長陳文章在立法院教文委員會呼籲政府要"},{"start":6128.309,"end":6156.038,"text":"提升大學的經費並推動高教前瞻基礎計畫也有學者指出大學是培養人才的基地需要一些更多資金去預助經費始終不足只能越來越向下沉淪本席也認為說從外國調查機構對亞洲大學排名的變化政府應該要正視學者對高教資源缺乏的問題的嚴重性那主席長"},{"start":6156.818,"end":6162.972,"text":"政府到底有沒有提升分配高教經費、增加人才以及培育的決心?有沒有?"},{"start":6163.669,"end":6191.686,"text":"那是一定有的但是現在今年因為今年前瞻只剩下703億那這個部分那是當初是由國化會他整個去做一個整個計畫的一個分配因為有各項的一個計畫都提出需求那事實上還有很多有包括軌道的部分有將近4000多億一直還沒有編列預算沒有編到裡面所以這個部分也是我們將來要努力來來做一個編列的一個方向我是希望說要重視這些問題"},{"start":6192.807,"end":6193.728,"text":"主席,麻煩請陳主席長還有財政部的"},{"start":6223.71,"end":6246.899,"text":"陳署長吳庫署跟負稅署還有宋署長、署長這個703億第5期的這個預算是因為前面兩次的特別條例總共匡列8400億然後第一期、第二期、第三期、第四期用了7000多億就是差這703億所以你這第5期就是這703億是不是這樣說是是吼那"},{"start":6252.935,"end":6270.384,"text":"今年的稅收的預算的實收數遠遠大於這個預算數現在估計起來前幾天我在這個地方請教專部長他說應該至少會多3000多億那如果這樣子的話這個703億有需要舉借嗎?"},{"start":6276.05,"end":6291.956,"text":"因為703億它是114年度啦那現在我們113年度的一個剩餘的這個部分那我們就會針對第一個要舉借113年需要借債的一個部分113年已經不需要借債對就不需要借113年還增加還了"},{"start":6294.857,"end":6310.917,"text":"對,所以113你要增加還,那還的部分就到累積剩餘裡面去,累積剩餘然後再做一下。對啊,所以我說可不可以移用這個今年度的稅計剩餘,因為今年看出來就是明顯會有大量的稅計剩餘,把它拿來這個703這樣就不需要舉債啊。"},{"start":6312.979,"end":6336.772,"text":"事實上今年在編114年度的時候它也有移用以前年度的稅基剩餘也有移用500億然後因為今年整個稅基剩餘下來剩下150幾億那如果再有累積剩餘再移下去就會可以做再一年度的編略﹖對啦所以我才剛剛復稅署長才有講今年至少會多3000多億是是是那遠大於這個遠大於預算說3000多億當然是"},{"start":6339.193,"end":6368.393,"text":"除了增加還款之外就是不用舉借之後還會有稅計剩餘啊這樣剩下的就已經不多了會不多嗎對對對你告訴我舉債因為這一次舉債的部分跟委員報告那11113的部分就是剩下152億那今年度113的稅計剩餘是112的嘛112對對那今年的稅計剩餘要等明年的7月審計部審定之後才能拿來移用所以這個部分是這樣子的跟委員報告"},{"start":6369.173,"end":6390.413,"text":"那不能先用短期債款來支應嗎?因為你既然7月審計不審定之後就會有大量的稅劑剩餘出現啊。所以跟委員報告,像我們今年提台電最佳預算的時候,就是因為5月送,那7月的時候才要審定,所以剛開始也是先用借款,然後這個部分等到"},{"start":6391.867,"end":6413.346,"text":"審定以後再把它轉作為那個證語剛剛各部會通通都講說這主要都是坐在地方嘛前面的總共加第5期的8400億通通幾乎都是坐在地方啦那現在財劃法如果照國民黨委員會的版本他又要給你挖6000多億那你這個財源的分配的合理性"},{"start":6414.207,"end":6428.087,"text":"到底跟這個前瞻基礎建設也是要補助給地方然後你現在又統籌分辨書館又挖那麼多地方去這樣兩個東西是不是地方已經幾乎把你的錢抽乾了結果你還要編那麼多預算去補助地方"},{"start":6429.164,"end":6429.304,"text":"這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":6459.744,"end":6459.925,"text":"主席"},{"start":6469.011,"end":6492.533,"text":"是我也再跟委員說明一下因為我們總共這一次的總預算是3兆1嘛那3兆1扣掉那個依法律義務1兆8我們只剩下1兆如果減掉612億以後我們只剩下6千整個所有其他減掉依法律義務之外的錢通通要減半才有辦法去致應這個那另外一方面就是要取債啊是"},{"start":6493.574,"end":6511.55,"text":"不然就是國家舉債啊。沒有啊,可以到40.6啊,現在才28啊。當年度那個短期的有限制總預算的百分之十五。那你就不要借短期的,借長期的啊。因為如果要這樣子惡搞,他就是要把國家的財政弄破產嘛。"},{"start":6512.401,"end":6530.757,"text":"那既然要這樣報告的話,我們上有對策、上有政策、上有對策用這樣子惡劣的方式把財源都挖掉,中央政府沒有錢怎麼補助呢?是,長期負債雖然可以超到40%,但是當年度就是不能超過15%,所以你超過15%就是違法"},{"start":6535.137,"end":6550.058,"text":"對啦,那所以你要想出其他的方法來處理不然的話這個東西如果硬這樣子折騰的話那國不成國啊你的整個財政破產你這個前瞻基礎建設8400多億都是在補助地方的占絕大多數結果他這樣還不夠"},{"start":6551.7,"end":6578.45,"text":"統籌分配稅款我查過新北市政府的財政之前連續4年他財政都是剩餘耶都是plus耶不是minus耶結果現在還要我今天那天問議員他也答不出來我說突然之間照這個現在通過的這個如果是照財政委員會出去的這一個新北市政府突然之間拿到600多億要700億準備怎麼花沒有人知道突然之間天上掉下來將近700億錢要怎麼花"},{"start":6580.609,"end":6598.382,"text":"你沒有計畫沒有事務的分配沒有權責的分配光給他將近700億我這個災難我難以想像所以要堅持加油是 這個部分是中央的確有困難以上說明好 謝謝謝謝吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":6603.63,"end":6627.62,"text":"這個錢既然都是用在地方就是以後才會通過地方決定怎麼用怎麼用就不用透過中央來決定是哪個縣市發的比較多哪個縣市發的比較少接著請李昆城委員我尊重你啊你要不要再來拔麥克風李昆城委員"},{"start":6633.595,"end":6633.935,"text":"請哪一位部長來?"},{"start":6664.739,"end":6670.461,"text":"我請這個主計長還有請這個交通部的次長陳主計長、林次長這個延續吳秉瑞委員的話題就是說在這個我們這次在討論是這個前瞻計算第5期嘛這第5期是最後一期了嗎?是最後一期了那最後一期我們編了這個700多億嘛"},{"start":6689.187,"end":6714.176,"text":"好,那接下來之後因為前瞻預算很多都是做地方的我先講軌道好了啦很多這個地方的軌道建設包含新北市的很多的輕軌捷運都是由中央來做這個補助的嘛那我請問一下那如果說這個前瞻預算這個第5期是最後一期然後呢接下來那如果這個國民黨版的這個財劃法通過挖了6612億之後那到了115年之後"},{"start":6717.658,"end":6743.218,"text":"新北市的所有的軌道、輕軌、所有的這些建設前要由誰來出?因為當初在核電的計畫的時候有分配就是說中央補助多少、地方負擔多少那這個部分將來如果財化法通過之後中央本身自己就沒有能力來做補助這個部分可能都要回歸地方,由地方來做負擔"},{"start":6744.179,"end":6757.786,"text":"我舉個例子,這個115年度之後呢,中央有負擔的這個軌道建設有11件,那總金額是2175億,然後中央跟地方各有負擔,中央是1297,然後地方是877,然後115年之後呢,那邊的預算數呢,中央負擔呢還有833億,"},{"start":6766.05,"end":6789.791,"text":"然後呢這個前瞻預算結束之後呢改由交通部公務預算喔改由交通部公務預算編列的這一個軌道計畫呢115年之後呢有1912億那就要請教一下這一個主席長跟這個次長在未來幾年軌道建設這個大概還有2746億的補助款這個要做"},{"start":6793.394,"end":6799.021,"text":"如果被國民黨版本財劃法挖了6610億之後接下來這些本來中央要負擔的軌道的建設"},{"start":6810.27,"end":6836.971,"text":"那要怎麼去做處理?那未來都是要由地方自己出嗎?比如說我新北市現在南北環要做、山陰縣要做、萬大樹林縣要做、淡海的輕軌要做本來都是由中央來做補助的那接下來115年之後沒有錢在那裏預算然後如果財務法要通過之後那這些錢中央還有錢補助嗎?那是由地方自己來出嗎?"},{"start":6840.416,"end":6863.234,"text":"已經核定的計畫第5期編完沒有預算的就回歸到公務預算您提的那第二個問題是您提的也很重要未來交通部要提列到跟行政院申請的這個中央負擔的部分這部分就要由主席總書來配合總書來處理看看是否經費足夠那如果經費不夠的話可能就要做一點處理才能"},{"start":6863.354,"end":6863.554,"text":"主席"},{"start":6883.834,"end":6908.155,"text":"因為這就要檢討了,因為當初如果核定,但是中央實在是也沒有經費相關的財源。當初的核定是按照目前財務法的這個規模來做核定嘛,那現在財務法已經沒有這麼多統籌分配款可以運用啦,我們只剩下一千多億啦,那怎麼可能還要按照本來中央核定的這個比例再去撥給地方呢?中央的錢哪裡來?"},{"start":6909.236,"end":6925.592,"text":"因為現在如果說這個是前瞻計畫將來要回歸計畫型一個補助各部會的計畫型補助但是如果說我們優先要刪減大概也是計畫型的一個補助因為這是對各縣市的一個相關的一個補助的一個配套的一個計畫"},{"start":6926.593,"end":6940.864,"text":"那所以計畫型補助就沒有辦法了嗎?對,因為我們計畫型補助有2911億裡面這個部分呢那大部分就是說我們要刪減6612億6612億刪減2911億之外還要再刪減3000多億所以這個部分呢等於是說各部會大部分都要刪減以上那有沒有可能這個採訪法通過之後"},{"start":6951.092,"end":6973.837,"text":"本來新北市要出的軌道建設的經費本來有中央補助但是後來因為中央沒辦法補助他自己出的錢會不會多於他拿到了這個財務法之後分配給他的分配款其實我們算過了如果是計畫型補助大部分其實比較在"},{"start":6974.844,"end":6977.766,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":6994.517,"end":6996.898,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就：一、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":7018.817,"end":7040.302,"text":"所以這個部分就是要請交通部再檢討對各縣市補助的一個比率好那最後我花一點時間就是說這個地下停車場的這個問題因為地下停車場現在你們有送計畫給國發會嘛已經有第三次修正了然後這個計畫的期程呢這個從106年9月延長到114年8月經費也從260億增加到320億了那請問一下那這個修正計畫今年會通過嗎"},{"start":7050.675,"end":7073.573,"text":"各位報告我們已經提了就是停車場的這個計畫的修正那現在在行政院行政院就是說目前還在審查之中我是希望說這個能夠趕快去通過啦因為包含我自己選區這個有五個停車場五華、新谷、開源、六張大同都嗷嗷逮捕啦因為這個新北市政府他就說他錢不夠要跟中央來要"},{"start":7075.774,"end":7087.658,"text":"地方抵稅有這個需求,那我希望說這個停車場的計畫能夠讓它通過,我們會盡力爭取。好,謝謝。謝謝李坤城委員。主席長這兩年不是都超徵喔,三四千億嗎?今年不是也超徵四千億嗎?這要列入考慮喔,錢要用喔。那個陳情非委員,"},{"start":7116.108,"end":7142.148,"text":"主席主席長我想了解一下依照目前國民黨跟民眾黨的版本財劃法的版本台南因為你來自台南你對於台南我相信在整個財務的狀況你非常的了解在整個國民黨民眾黨的版本"},{"start":7143.936,"end":7171.186,"text":"在台南是敬佩莫作所調整的幅度是敬佩莫作所調整的額度也是敬佩莫作如果是這樣我是來自台南的民意代表我不可能接受而且我也是台南市的一份子我更要極力反對因為在這麼不公平的一個分配制度之下"},{"start":7172.708,"end":7199.609,"text":"我相信臺南在六度當中我們很多的建設正在發展包括我們的鐵路地下化包括我們的輕軌捷運藍線、綠線等等我們正在往前邁進包括我們所有的相關所有周邊的道路開發生活圈道路"},{"start":7201.025,"end":7221.077,"text":"這都需要經費我們才能往上提升到一個完完全全在陸網也好在我們水利資源充足的一個前提之下讓我們台南有一個新亮點台南是400年"},{"start":7222.56,"end":7248.236,"text":"我們要如何在400年這樣的一個歷史古都當中可以幻化出一個新的科技發展我們有護國神山台南台積電南科在最近周邊的土地的成長已經超出了我們想像的範圍所以主計長"},{"start":7250.25,"end":7258.606,"text":"他這樣的一個幅度對於台南公不公平?你認為你來自台南,你認為台南公不公平?"},{"start":7262.112,"end":7282.754,"text":"就我們的一個分析就是台南在直轄市裡面算比較低的那如果說因為現在是垂直分配和水平分配因為整個一個都還沒有定案只是在試算而已試算的一個階段那如果目前試算的階段的部分呢"},{"start":7283.194,"end":7284.895,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":7313.394,"end":7339.943,"text":"然後只要地方有配合款計畫到位配合款到位我們沒有吝嗇一分錢給各地方啊不論你是國民黨執政還是民進黨執政都是一樣這個前瞻計畫就是當時候有這樣的一個方向跟利益基礎所以才有特別條例才有我們的整個預算的編列所以現在已經到了第5期了"},{"start":7341.718,"end":7341.758,"text":"主席"},{"start":7360.851,"end":7382.927,"text":"主席長,我們錢給了誰?我們不是給地方嗎?現在不是國民黨執政比較多嗎?民進黨執政才五個縣市耶!包括直轄市跟非直轄市也就五個耶!其他都是國民黨耶!我們有少給人家嗎?沒有啊!那為什麼要這樣戴帽子呢?"},{"start":7384.264,"end":7390.918,"text":"所以今天在審這個前瞻基礎建設計畫的時候我們為台南所爭取的我們要拿計畫來欸"},{"start":7393.561,"end":7416.289,"text":"不是用口說的就可以我們是要拿計畫每一個縣市都一樣所以我們是從整個公路總局還有鐵道局我們的軌道建設捷運的部分鐵路地下化我們也是要經過可行性評估要經過所有相關的資料顯示"},{"start":7418.134,"end":7443.524,"text":"不是隨便講講都可以還有我們水利署的包括我們在征文南化所有聯通管的計畫還有我們的山上淨水廠供水系統昨天我們要求所有的首相要回到島主台南我們就是要水給他我們就是電愛給他水要給他很重要嘛水如果沒給他的事"},{"start":7445.805,"end":7468.061,"text":"請問他要怎麼去經營?所以我們利用了在整個特別預算將曾文南化聯通館的工程計畫臺南山上淨水廠供水系統改善計畫還有縣市館、河川及區域排水整體改善計畫這都在特別務省裡面我們有掃給了任何一個縣市嗎?來,署長"},{"start":7470.268,"end":7482.873,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及生態、社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及"},{"start":7500.04,"end":7519.878,"text":"所以我們是整體規劃,對不對?整體規劃,然後整體給預算這樣才能把整個我們的治水面積可以擴大嘛,擴到最大嘛,對不對?這是一個串聯性的,不是看哪一個縣市,它是一個整個串聯的"},{"start":7520.925,"end":7542.85,"text":"所以 這個很重要 好 我再問一下農業部部長 請問我們農水署跟水保署的預算 這不重要 這牽扯到我們整個農水署我們的農水牌 還有我們的水土波期 這都有關到人民的生命安全我們有掃給嗎 各縣市有掃給嗎"},{"start":7549.196,"end":7562.573,"text":"是嘛!依照各縣市的需求我覺得今天不能戴帽子你要去處理財劃法都沒有問題不能戴帽子說中央都沒給地方預算這是不公平的"},{"start":7563.414,"end":7590.867,"text":"所以我們也認為臺南因為這一筆前瞻預算我們地方說真的幫忙很多從農水署到水保署幫忙很多我們也爭取很多經費去幫忙到地方的發展所以我們認為該怎麼說就怎麼說不能有所扭曲還有一個很重要的不好意思主席國科會的這個AI運算資料中心建制計畫"},{"start":7592.567,"end":7597.969,"text":"這個部分我們拜託我們這個國科會的部分因為國科會這個部分是由我們"},{"start":7611.906,"end":7641.204,"text":"做主導對不對?AI運算資料中心就是我們臺南所設置的AI產業園區嘛對不對?是由我們國科會嘛可是我要問的國科會你有辦法一個人去串聯所有的各部會嗎?因為這個智慧、科技、大南方、產業、生態系這個不是只有國科會是要各個部門欸你有辦法嗎?你有辦法去串聯嗎?我們一定要各部會一起合作啦"},{"start":7641.772,"end":7660.8,"text":"好,誰當Leader?是國科會去當Leader嗎?國科會來規劃未來這個園區國會來協助管理,是。協助管理,你有辦法去串聯其他的部會嗎?你們都是平衡的耶,你們都是平行的耶,有辦法嗎?這很重要耶。這是台南重大的一個AI產業園區。"},{"start":7662.341,"end":7677.65,"text":"是,我現在是也兼政委,所以以行政院政委的身份來協助。所以你是以行政院政委來溝通所有的平行單位,是不是?是。這很重要喔。是。所以,我就是要問出這一點。"},{"start":7678.69,"end":7704.735,"text":"因為你光由國科會這個角色你沒有辦法去串聯其他的部會但是你政委是可以的所以拜託今天會由您擔任政委來擔任這樣的角色一定是有所賦予你的責任我們期待除了預算這個在我們前瞻第5期是重點重點之後再怎麼規劃希望要給我們隨時一個計畫報告"},{"start":7708.958,"end":7711.941,"text":"財政部提出版本有意見財劃法財政部提出版本有意見財劃法"},{"start":7737.649,"end":7759.074,"text":"市長 委員好先跟你確認一下禮拜六會來到高雄嗎對不對報告委員一定會針對高鐵難營那我先問一下這個預定什麼時候交通部會做出最後的抵定的方案出來我想現在我們兩個方案都還在做評估那聽取地方人民的意見我們在年底應該可以做出決定年底就是12月31日"},{"start":7760.575,"end":7769.188,"text":"三十一之前除了我這個禮拜六邀請之外交通部還有安排後續的說明會嗎?會有安排大概會有幾場?"},{"start":7771.539,"end":7793.602,"text":"現在規劃可能大概有兩場至三場左右兩場到三場我們希望妥善的溝通好不好讓這件事情能夠有最好的一個溝通跟解決是好 謝謝那接下來我開始請教那個國企先從國企好了啦齊坦白講這應該十幾年前國企正常來說在今年第7貨櫃中心就應該啟用的時候應該完成當時其實是一起的"},{"start":7793.982,"end":7795.163,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":7817.382,"end":7837.9,"text":"人民安全也都會產生影響我的選區那邊其實有時候常常就發生這種兩輛貨櫃車夾擊小轎車剩下三分之一當場死亡這樣的其實不應該在進步的國家進步的城市發生啦所以次長能不能提前在二零明年可不可以動工"},{"start":7839.648,"end":7840.449,"text":"市長,能不能努力在明年動工?"},{"start":7859.662,"end":7866.586,"text":"朝這個方向好不好?2025年來動工已經慢了十幾年了這一條路本來應該在今年是要通車的跟第7貨櫃中心一起啟用的結果已經慢了"},{"start":7876.392,"end":7877.433,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":7906.414,"end":7907.775,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":7929.714,"end":7957.573,"text":"國期的話可以大幅減少它跟人相交錯機車包括一般的汽車交錯機會都大幅的減少好不好是好再來我請教一下我昨天我有跟院長跟部長有問高雄機場高雄機場2030年我希望一樣能夠提前完工我覺得很奇怪每次高雄的建設都會特別的慢現在的機場已經881要做了但是卻到要到2032年現在才2024你要8年後才能完成"},{"start":7959.814,"end":7986.728,"text":"一個航廈的第1期還不是全部只是做一半的工程要花8年的時間次長不會太久嗎我想我這要說明一下因為現在那個機場新緬新現在用所以就有點是所謂的改建工程所以它可以做的時間確實是比較困難一點比較少一點我想這部分我們也在努力我知道你們常講的是穿著衣服改衣服但是我講的因為國內航廈其實現在"},{"start":7987.808,"end":7987.888,"text":"主席"},{"start":8007.756,"end":8009.537,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":8037.585,"end":8059.411,"text":"此外,在航班、在航點、在客機、包括新的客機也要分配一些在高雄,包括在票價都要努力去取得平衡,不然南部真的無法接受,這個落差太大。最後我再問一個,這個捷運的部分、高捷的部分,現在有追加一些預算嗎?那這個追加預算的部分確定了嗎?"},{"start":8060.872,"end":8077.005,"text":"這個預算包括像黃線這些大概都有送上來我們做審議那大概有一些原則上我們都通過那大概就是一些意見請他們做修正所以原則上會照這個金額來通過照這樣的金額來通過我們希望全力來支持因為黃線可能要追加將近900億包括紅線也要追加300億左右我們希望計數來通過"},{"start":8086.693,"end":8108.224,"text":"因為沒有時間了另外我希望下次再跟部長次長討論待會先注意高雄的交通的問題我認為還是南北向跟東西向還是要改善南北的88是全台灣最繁忙的東西向道路第二條在座以外也要再思考到鳳山到屏東的另外一條的不要讓那個有些是可以穿越性的車流不要在下面走好不好"},{"start":8108.564,"end":8128.168,"text":"另外南北向幾乎遇到了大塞國一幾乎跟台南之間幾乎常常在大塞如果車禍就很嚴重應該儘速的思考像舞陽高架那方式舒緩掉了高雄跟台南之間的交通問題好不好這個下次再來跟次長好好來談先做準備好嗎好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝財政委員謝謝財政委員接著我們請林益勤委員"},{"start":8137.417,"end":8142.81,"text":"謝主席有請國土署吳署長還有國發會詹副主委"},{"start":8152.963,"end":8175.705,"text":"首先先來請國土署共同來維護我們永康跟新市居民的生命財產安全新市衛生排水抽水站興建工程補助經費評估大約2.5億需要中央來協助,實際上我們現在現有的基礎本來就是一個應急的使用,我想這吳署長很清楚"},{"start":8176.986,"end":8178.187,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":8204.165,"end":8206.968,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":8222.125,"end":8223.466,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":8243.115,"end":8245.177,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":8258.109,"end":8281.11,"text":"有,感謝委員,因為的確在上次楷米颱風、台南許多地方都發現抽水基礎老舊或是量能不足的問題所以我們當時有請市府重新再清查、檢討所有的這個抽水基礎的問題那你提到這個是在新市跟永康,尤其永康這一個是之前就已經曾經有傳出一些問題"},{"start":8281.71,"end":8283.152,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":8299.551,"end":8313.818,"text":"好 謝謝 那好 那那個 首長請回再來我想要請教的是湯南市鐵路立體化的延伸至永康地區這個計畫那當然我們交通部要來加速辦理可是這一案經過國發會會整個單位的這個意見"},{"start":8317.28,"end":8339.47,"text":"10月24號已經呈報行政院,因為它事涉整個消除鐵路沿線發展的阻隔,拉均衡這個都市的發展。所以要特別請國會說明一下,到底各單位的意見如何?那目前到底還有哪些方面需要加強?副主委。是,謝謝委員的質詢。有懷疑這個計畫,我是不是請我們負責審議的國土處的副處長跟委員做一點說明。"},{"start":8345.573,"end":8345.994,"text":"文化部理事長"},{"start":8375.657,"end":8375.937,"text":"國定古蹟台南火車站修復問題"},{"start":8405.657,"end":8407.018,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":8430.692,"end":8431.213,"text":"國家文化記憶庫"},{"start":8449.63,"end":8471.847,"text":"這是前瞻第5期特別預算也有編列這個經費,理論上國家文化記憶庫花費了公帑,它長年來所建設的資料應該是屬於全民資產,那本來就應該開放至最大程度讓大眾自由運用,可是這個很明顯是說,它因為欠缺系統性的規劃,所以它開放的程度不足,那我覺得"},{"start":8473.709,"end":8497.287,"text":"甚至是他收羅的資料品質良又不起的內容引起爭議什麼意思我舉例來講國家文化記憶庫中就有收羅內容極盡對女性羞辱的能勢的選舉文宣那不過當然這不是重點真正讓人家擔憂的是說這種無關公益涉及私人權利的資料也在這裡面"},{"start":8498.908,"end":8499.709,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":8516.072,"end":8539.276,"text":"的工程還是必須得進行．不然我們要避免它對不特定的個人持續會造成傷害所以想要請部長掌握這個狀況也要請您說明一下就未來文化部怎麼樣去協助臺灣歷史博物館進食這個國家文化記憶庫的大整頓部長我想這個花了這麼長時間大概整理了300萬筆資料是來自博物館機關專"},{"start":8545.097,"end":8565.266,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":8574.895,"end":8595.994,"text":"提報一百一十五年科技發展計畫裡面這個科技創新的部分繼續整理這些資料讓它能夠很系統克服給所有的民眾可以用好希望部長花一點心思在這個做一些整頓OK好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝李議員接著請郭國文委員"},{"start":8605.043,"end":8608.645,"text":"有請國發會、經濟部、文化部、內政部、交通部、五次長"},{"start":8622.128,"end":8642.467,"text":"好 我先就教育經濟部的部分我想最近有3次的大颱風來侵襲那目前的治水的部分就以前瞻計畫總共大概前面的4期加總累積起來再加上第5期大概600億但是目前的執行率大概只有8成"},{"start":8643.827,"end":8665.694,"text":"問題是,淹水還是持續地發生,所以以至於本席選區當中包括流畜排水、海埔排水、總爺宗室、中本市白水、新崎排水這個部分我想就較於社長的部分,在這一次有沒有機會納入前瞻預算總金額是多少?請恢復沒有問題,總金額大概多少?"},{"start":8669.269,"end":8690.577,"text":"我請那個署長來 署長請 把握時間 署長好 謝謝 這次我們在8月30就核定了包括這幾個區域大概收將近7.5億元的7.5億元 對 不夠喔當然 因為治水是一里一里從下游一直往上游你第一次給7.5億 我這樣加總起來大概12、13億喔 你要算清楚喔"},{"start":8691.598,"end":8695.585,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":8707.883,"end":8729.771,"text":"國發會我要跟你講前瞻基礎捷運算是前瞻但是台南是六都當中唯一沒有捷運的五都現在已經運行的捷運總共有13條目前興建當中的捷運總共有16條總經費是8434億台南連一條都沒有一到五期的推動都市捷運台南只分到2億2540萬占所有的總經費當中只有0.39%"},{"start":8735.413,"end":8762.608,"text":"只有0.3 這什麼規劃會而已即便你現在所推動的第5期2916億這裡頭也不包括台南捷運這個捷運的部分目前還沒有完全核定的情況底下預算的財務計畫當中已經有出來了藍線、延伸線還有深綠線深綠線才沒有確定這種情況底下國會所主導的台南捷運納入這個造園計畫的可能性大不大國會請說"},{"start":8763.929,"end":8778.866,"text":"呃是呃謝謝委員水晶我們現在在推動的造型計畫當然呃首批就是地方如果有需要的話都會納入地方有需要可是你要面對一個很大的政治變數啊財法法如果通過的話你中央還有這種錢嗎你中央如果沒有這種預算編列的話那你要靠什麼錢"},{"start":8780.778,"end":8787.006,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":8801.102,"end":8801.222,"text":"委員好"},{"start":8816.227,"end":8841.775,"text":"部長你先上來就先聊吧部長我先跳過去一下齁我上次跟你提到的這個曾文熙文化狼帶他基本上是定位成台南的文史的副都心的概念台南現在所有想到台南就想到舊府城區那個觀光壓力太大了一來我們要解壓我羅列了這十幾項齁你看一下齁總共有四個無形的文化資產齁這個王傳文化的四個文化資產"},{"start":8843.115,"end":8867.686,"text":"另外有11個有形的文化資產．不管它有沒有文史的身份．還有兩個活的博物館．也就是舊的牛鬚．還有包括這一個散化啤酒廠．都是在生產還在運轉當中的．這種情況底下．它足以堪稱成為一個文化互督心．我就叫你的部分．五期的前瞻計畫裡邊列了9億的文化生活圈建設．"},{"start":8868.866,"end":8891.435,"text":"期待這麼久的文化廊區、期待這麼久的文史副都心有沒有機會納入當中啊?有,這是在我們的2.0就是重建歷史的2.0你們有編這個預算有編這個預算,所以這個會納入而且這個區是我自己個人花了很長時間做一個山海郡我在還沒有來之前我個人花了18年的時間在這個"},{"start":8894.216,"end":8894.357,"text":"主席"},{"start":8911.205,"end":8927.061,"text":"市長,交通的部分我就不講了啦整個南科化的延伸出去的公務體系當中生活圈道路一大堆還有包括生活這個水平的提升還有包括周遭區域的整個生活資源區跟產業資源區你們扮演一個很重要的角色"},{"start":8927.722,"end":8929.023,"text":"進行專題報告、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":8955.933,"end":8957.855,"text":"社宅優先公共設施以社福相關及教育為主社宅公共設施與地方政府及周邊居民共同討論"},{"start":8980.373,"end":8981.293,"text":"謝謝國管委員 接著我們請代會員委員"},{"start":9016.397,"end":9024.2,"text":"有請國化會副主委、北京副主委、農業部、文化部、農業部陳副總部長、國化部水利署署長我們先請國化會副主委"},{"start":9045.612,"end":9047.454,"text":"國科會、國科會、國科會、國科會、國科會、國科會、國科會、國科會、國科會、國科會、"},{"start":9068.51,"end":9085.153,"text":"政務主委跑去接電話你要不要先問別的單位這個文化部好來那我想這個前瞻計畫的一個特別預算在這個過程裡頭我們都知道前瞻計畫是為了均衡台灣的發展改善"},{"start":9085.754,"end":9108.968,"text":"中北、青南的一個情況其實這一路走來非常的不容易我們不管是中央還是地方的公務人員還是我們這些民意代表其實我們都非常希望讓這一個國家這一個進步的一個計畫可以順利的完成那到目前為止就是這七八年已經累積了7697億那這個計畫到明年8月就會結束了"},{"start":9113.871,"end":9132.822,"text":"那也是審查最後半年的預算也算是一個回顧那前瞻計畫的一個基礎建設的特別預算其實在這幾年臺南也拿到了大概是250億我們對照一下人口數臺南目前有186萬的人口平均一個人拿到1.3萬的補助這個對"},{"start":9135.183,"end":9138.585,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":9165.993,"end":9184.419,"text":"那我想在這裡我特別要跟大家做一個就是說其實台南它整體的一個計畫裡頭前瞻計畫帶動了整個大台南的一個新榮景那這裡頭我們知道就是前瞻的一期到三期補助了台南眾多的一個基礎的建設在下一頁"},{"start":9185.919,"end":9201.804,"text":"這裡特別要跟我們水利署署長特別請教就是說我們的水環境建設在曾文南化聯通館的一個工程計畫目前我們已經支出127億了那也完工了那是不是有其他的一個工程會進行呢?"},{"start":9204.825,"end":9225.516,"text":"自水的工作是持續不斷的而且我們會加緊力道在第5期的部分我們預計就應該是會評比在河裂海岸水31億左右31億左右好,31億喔,謝謝那山岩溪的一個排水中下游的一個治理工程在這個前瞻基那個支應了47.7億,後續呢?"},{"start":9229.169,"end":9251.138,"text":"這個部分在今年的幾次颱風確實發揮很大的效果至於委員你所說到的右邊這張照片所需要的輕餘的部分行政院有特別編列了10億元左右來依照這個試算的標準來補助給縣市政府我們未來這個會跟台南市政府持續來協助"},{"start":9252.338,"end":9277.945,"text":"好,那也順便就是再請教一下經濟部,那就是說經濟部有沒有代表在現場?好,經濟部沒有代表在現場的時候,就是沿水的這個雙芯拱葉跟葉金港的改善工程,我們都希望就是說有後續,那個經濟部代表,我們都希望有後續的一個執行面。後續我們在第5期有11億元在做水環境的部分,11億嘛,對不對?"},{"start":9279.625,"end":9280.406,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":9301.281,"end":9301.361,"text":"主席"},{"start":9320.418,"end":9325.844,"text":"您剛才問到這個問題就是我來之後這個是前章已經補助了那在未來有沒有國際級的一個計畫規劃那你打算這個國際級你打算編列多少的預算總預算國際級的喔國際級對"},{"start":9338.92,"end":9355.793,"text":"案內談查已經是我來之後全力要做的一個基地然後我們所有正在拍的片子我都安排他們去裡面看過部長你打算編的多少錢?打算編多少?這是以公建計畫支持這是用公建計畫來支持的一個預算我問一下"},{"start":9358.442,"end":9359.503,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":9385.419,"end":9386.48,"text":"主席最後半秒鐘,國科會副主委、我們的政委"},{"start":9410.399,"end":9432.134,"text":"我想在這裡再一次提醒你就是說我們六甲那個就是我們的工研院我們的AI那個就是機器人的一個園區那我們要實踐大南方這個科技計畫這一個應該是沒有問題的吧沒有問題我們已經啟動了沒有問題了那我們的生產製造的基地是不是可以擺在柳科第3期"},{"start":9432.995,"end":9438.485,"text":"我們也按照這個方向規劃。也按照這個方向再進行。是。好,謝謝。謝謝主席。謝謝委員。謝謝財務委員。接著我們請賴世保委員。"},{"start":9455.92,"end":9477.723,"text":"謝謝主席我先公布一個因為針對前瞻這個現在講第5期我們看第4期執行的結果執行率倒數第一名的叫衛福部就到9月底為止執行數除以預算數"},{"start":9480.75,"end":9501.418,"text":"主計總署、文字遊戲、廚藝、分配事務就隨便講講今年現在已經快11月底了第二名客委會、第三名農業部、第四名國發會、第五名速發部你看衛福部執行率不到55,只有53.3,農業部只有67.9"},{"start":9506,"end":9506.22,"text":"請邱部長"},{"start":9542.065,"end":9565.568,"text":"委員長部長你早最近你很紅啊大家都在罵你啊這個波波的事情啊謝謝我就講一個其實啊波波整個的爭議啊是陳時中核定薛瑞元定案邱太元執行就邱太元爛了"},{"start":9567.219,"end":9590.455,"text":"找到一坨什麼啦齁?這個你有沒有覺得委屈啊?我想政府的政策是延續的你有沒有覺得委屈齁?你有沒有覺得委屈?我們都會把它做到最好啊?現在沒有最好啊!現在人家要上街啊!這個禮拜天要上街啊!我們已經表達最大的誠意了我跟你講你根本沒有誠意!沒有誠意!你可以看喔!"},{"start":9592.574,"end":9592.814,"text":"主席"},{"start":9616.568,"end":9627.978,"text":"到偏鄉區、臺灣運營到偏鄉區執業幫助偏鄉的結果你們就用這個砍了來數字會說話第4期106年代110年這個郭沛生90名了就第5期就21名了今年就有3名了部長"},{"start":9638.837,"end":9665.949,"text":"白紙黑字啊!假借波波要去偏鄉幫波波掀洗白取得執照扼殺了本土牙醫的生路這絕對要受譴責的啦數字會說話陳時中陳時中核定這裡面我就不要公文我都有啦陳時中核定第4期90名就他核定的報告委員我可不可以說明一下"},{"start":9667.17,"end":9679.622,"text":"那這個90名是上一期、第二期的時候那是由地方來報上來那地方的需求這一次只有報21名怎麼會長期90變21怎麼會長期因為已經我們都是這個計畫這個是在地"},{"start":9685.167,"end":9700.12,"text":"在地跟離島的一個計畫所以他是地方上報上來那可能地方上只有他10年後因為這些人10年後11年以後才會進入等一下請教育部長一起來好嗎所以會有11年到11年他們預計已經就好像現在金門齁"},{"start":9704.758,"end":9705.118,"text":"主席"},{"start":9723.191,"end":9728.615,"text":"五十名那個是原來的辦法那個從十年來一直都是五十名那你就你看砍了空廢給波波這個就是衛福部的妖魔啊那個沒有關係啊因為五十年五十年就是五十年這個不會變啦齁"},{"start":9739.423,"end":9763.408,"text":"那另外大家擔心的只是偏鄉那個是不是有撥撥我倒還可以提你當初就是撥撥的大力推動者你當立委的時候就在推動撥撥開口門我們當立委都很清楚那個閉門的法案是我前程在未還從頭做到尾把他當閉門法案通過從頭復航到底啊我是貢獻非常大不要誤解我也不要謀破你這復航到底啊你要知道我完全沒有復航"},{"start":9763.868,"end":9782.627,"text":"你完全,其實我今天來就讓你要有機會講說這裡面是陳時中定下來的結果你給他濫結果你還把他結合起來了這裡面是陳時中闖的禍對不對,他要獨厚薄薄結果你還幫他這套奇怪的你還濫起來因為我們的偏鄉計畫現在沒有你這麼怕他"},{"start":9786.604,"end":9813.994,"text":"沒有撥撥,我們,我在講的是偏鄉計畫現在是以第一個一定要有執照,第二個是本國醫師、本國醫學院醫學畢業月薪。你們現在有24億就是給撥撥的話,怎麼沒有呢?24億啊,20歲的預算。現在我們已經公布的政策是沒完全,就是偏鄉計畫一定要有醫師,因為他50,而且限定那55個現在沒有牙醫的鄉鎮。"},{"start":9815.535,"end":9822.419,"text":"然若一定要有一致執照,那實習以後才能夠考第二階段,第二階段考完以後,因為波波的形容不好,已經有一死人的個案,還有一些個案都可以不可以要求醫院公佈他們的波波醫生有幾個可以嗎?"},{"start":9840.626,"end":9841.026,"text":"臺大幾十年我最清楚"},{"start":9855.083,"end":9876.617,"text":"不不基本上住院醫師我們沒有說就是有些有些地區的當然像美國的哈佛大學澳洲協力大學我們都說過了台大公布沒有敢公布為什麼其他醫院不敢公布劉總你敢公布啊其他醫院為什麼你不敢要求他們公布為什麼不敢你回答啊你不敢回答啊包屁啊"},{"start":9878.992,"end":9879.132,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":9902.082,"end":9930.85,"text":"委員好我看到說現在的教召在政大我的母校我畢業政大研究所我在政大教書教了20年結果怎麼會校園裡面變成一個彈藥庫你的教召放在放在政大欸政大政大我代表我不敢說我代表政大最少但是我是政大校友、政大老師我政大教授出身我強烈抗議啊怎麼教召可以放政大欺負政大"},{"start":9932.059,"end":9958.264,"text":"你到底什麼樣?黨政局要退出校園結果現在把彈藥庫搬到政大這什麼意思啊?你要知道喔部長啊一旦政大你如果常態化什麼意思?他彈藥放政大萬一我們的敵人他攻擊就會攻擊政大喔校園變成一個敵方攻擊的目標你承受得起嗎?部長啊你講一下你講一下問題勒"},{"start":9960.08,"end":9961.42,"text":"我請問你事先有沒有跟部長打招呼?"},{"start":9992.361,"end":10012.798,"text":"你回答我,時間到了,你回答我這個訊息我個人並沒有你不知道啊,校方也不知道啊,可惡在這裡啊黨、政、軍退出媒體,結果大喇喇的部隊開進去政大什麼意思啊?請問政大以前,請問你知道駕照以前在哪裡嗎?"},{"start":10014.329,"end":10036.048,"text":"教昭以前在哪裡我想教昭在過去有很多的公共空間都在軍營比較多啦沒有我跟委員報告我其實也看過在運動場這個各縣市的運動場這個也曾經那當然有一些校園裡邊他是不是有一些地形地物上他們需要特別使用到這個地形地物我想"},{"start":10037.049,"end":10048.998,"text":"這一個部分啊,容我這一個事後了解再跟我們報告所以你跟我回答就是你根本事先不知道政大當然也不知道結果就大喇喇的開進去政大校園"},{"start":10050.763,"end":10071.853,"text":"我講大學的治理這個部分可能委員的這個信息裡邊我想我們事後再來瞭解應該基本上一定會這個事先這個請求這個學校的一些支持怎麼會這樣一步步的讓部隊開進去這個大學校園裡面黨政經推出校園都說假的"},{"start":10073.308,"end":10082.414,"text":"沒有我想跟委員講這跟黨政經退出效應應該是關...沒有關聯啊他們要在裡面一個禮拜勒"},{"start":10083.533,"end":10112.764,"text":"在那個原創大樓那裡就在校園裡面就在裡面就看到阿兵哥根委員報告因為我本身也是政大的校友所以政大的許多地形地物他可能有許多這個這個演練上的一些需求我相信你你如果要當部長你可以接受我不能接受啦部長真的我跟委員報告我相信這個在大學是你你寫一個評估報告給我好嗎我是我們來了解跟委員做報告"},{"start":10115.233,"end":10117.714,"text":"謝謝賴委員部長是不是有彈藥庫進校園的事情注意一下接著我們請黃孟凱委員"},{"start":10141.638,"end":10147.849,"text":"好 謝謝主席麻煩請我們教育部長跟交通部長政部長齁 交通部 吳次長"},{"start":10161.46,"end":10178.12,"text":"來我先請教政部長政部長延續剛剛賴委員的質詢本席看到也覺得非常的離譜欸等一下您剛剛講是說國防部宣布要在政大做一個禮拜的教招事先都沒有跟教育部溝通是嗎"},{"start":10180.738,"end":10198.385,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個內部裡面我再來瞭解我確實是沒有收到這個你不知道但是通常這樣一個我相信它是屬於大學的一個全責在大學在怎麼樣大學全責教昭以往沒有發生過那"},{"start":10199.605,"end":10208.358,"text":"今天突然講說要叫招而且是20號有運洩、居洩的物資進入校園禮拜六有幹部進入校園25號有100名叫招員進駐28號行軍訓練禮拜五才解編換言之他的"},{"start":10216.329,"end":10244.018,"text":"完成的訓練全都已經出來了那現在有同學看到也會現在已經有同學看到說穿迷彩服的阿兵哥在一樓大廳來來回回走動場勘就到目前為止我們教育部身為教育主管機關後知後覺不聞不問不過跟我們報告我們確實在大學之前有沒有表達過我現在我都還想問說之前有沒有表達跟國防部表達不合適"},{"start":10246.192,"end":10263.541,"text":"有地形、地貌、教昭有影響,但是國防部有提出這樣的需求,那我們教育部難道就是認為說沒關係啦?好理啦?什麼時候?有沒有表達不合適,但是國防部霸王硬上弓就是要?還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":10265.018,"end":10291.523,"text":"跟委員報告就我們目前的一個辦法他是由縣市後備指揮部依國環部的一個整體規劃的需求來這個競洽所選定的學校來辦理也就是說由地方政府的地方的政府的這個後備指揮部然後直接跟學校來接洽的以目前的一個辦法是依據什麼樣的辦法誰定的辦法"},{"start":10294.67,"end":10320.651,"text":"就這個場地來看這個部長現在重點在於你是教育主管機關我現在我推估是你跟我們一樣都是看到了報導才知道那如果這樣會有覺得事情更大條欸就代表是說今天國防部他想選定哪一個學校他直接自己去溝通教育部也不聞不問管不著那如果今天是政大本席的選區"},{"start":10322.873,"end":10334.98,"text":"淡水河口也是先被國防部長講是說這個訓練的首要之區因為有可能會有斬首行動那未來會不會淡江大學、申理大學、聖約翰大學"},{"start":10337.833,"end":10364.439,"text":"跟委員報告,我想...然後我們教育部都沒發動我們最在意的是不是影響到老師的教學跟學生的教學研究您覺得教招人來來來,部長部長來,部長您是政大校友嘛是您覺得說這有迷彩妝的阿兵哥進入到校園有一百名的教招人員有軍械、有武器、裝備、設備進入到校園會不會影響"},{"start":10368.63,"end":10388.648,"text":"我這個我必須要在實際的情況裡邊我才能夠評估對不起跟委員報告因為我相信大學裡邊他有一套的一個治理的一個系統在是不是會影響到教學研究上他一定會有一些評估部長記不記得我們上個禮拜在同一個場地的時候所有大專院校的校長來是"},{"start":10390.009,"end":10415.146,"text":"我是不是才質詢跟請教是說有沒有信心幫教育部這些大學校長解決柴米油鹽降醋茶的問題我也期許說你不要換位置就換腦袋因為你過去是中山大學校長我也肯定你過去在中山大學服務很不錯那如果說今天國防部選定中山大學你身為前校長要不要講講話你可以接受國防部來中山大學嗎如果你還是校長的話"},{"start":10419.775,"end":10444.995,"text":"我想學校在這個場地上的一些使用基本上一定最高的一個規準就是對老師的教學、學生的學習教學研究上會不會產生一些干擾是嗎?所以部長我只問一句學校是為什麼服務學生、老師、研究是學校從以前到現在我們有想過說它要變成是教招的場地嗎?"},{"start":10446.209,"end":10469.061,"text":"我想基本上翻遍我們教育部的規定有教招場地這個是學校要提供的基本上它不是學校主要主要的一個服務項目您講到重點了所以部長這件事情教育部能夠怎麼印起來我想我容我事後這個會後了解然後再"},{"start":10470.089,"end":10492.689,"text":"整個我掌握我再跟委員做一個詳細的報告很多國人都關心因為現在不是只是政大如果說政大沒有任何人講話那中山大學有可能是下一個我想跟委員報告以後全縣市我們所有的委員所在縣市你只要國防部一個命令都可以說我要借用學校場地"},{"start":10493.65,"end":10504.345,"text":"大學可以借用那高中能不能借用高中能夠借用國中能不能借用到周邊全民皆兵所有學校都可以能夠同意嗎"},{"start":10506.765,"end":10533.89,"text":"臺灣是已經要進入準戰爭狀態,是不是?來,部長,你一個禮拜內正式的給本席...學校一定是知道的,跟委員報告因為他一定要經過大學校宴裡邊學校通過,他才會...來來來,部長,我本席的時間真的有限啦但是如果說你要講,我真的...因為我其實準備拍攝交通部讓你在後面站學校一定知道,廢話!"},{"start":10535.47,"end":10544.162,"text":"他都已經進入到學校校園都已經公告說20到28、25號要來叫招了學校當然叫招但重點是學校能不能拒絕嘛"},{"start":10545.433,"end":10569.442,"text":"今天國防部已經找到了政大政大有沒有說不的權利那不然的話怎麼會說讓他們進入到校園裡面做教導那我剛剛從頭到尾一直質詢的是說當政大收到這樣的一個命令的時候有沒有讓教育部知道至少政大它的位階上來講國防部比較大那我能不能找我的主管機關教育部部長對部長"},{"start":10570.842,"end":10573.904,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":10596.271,"end":10600.396,"text":"不是嗎?部長,你現在發言是有經過了解還是說你只是揣測?沒有,他們現在給我的資料是大學端一定要同意的"},{"start":10612.318,"end":10627.745,"text":"部長,我很實在話講,你的這個回答我真的沒有辦法接受,因為以大學來講,如果說國防部,就像你剛剛講的,因為一開始又先推地方政府就可以同意了,不用經過教育部,那如果說現在這樣講的話,"},{"start":10629.606,"end":10651.754,"text":"學校有沒有他的權利可以說不當然是可以的是嗎是我現在看起來是你完全不了解狀況根據委員報告真的我們現在整個大環境很多的思維也真的在改變譬如說我們在國防科技許多的人才也用我拜託一下好不好你是教育主管機關你要幫的是大學講話你現在一直"},{"start":10653.615,"end":10675.381,"text":"您把自己變成是國防部長了是不是我我我我從來不敢意願我的一個你現在是希望大學裡面都要軍事訓練合理化今天政大明天台大後天中山跟委員報告我還是說這是屬於大學不要開玩笑好不好大學的一個發展他們一個選擇這個我們就可以尊重謝謝部長"},{"start":10676.727,"end":10682.631,"text":"是不是了解之後,給本席跟我們財政委員會關心的委員一個報告。來,教育部次長。幾個部分一定要在這邊幫我們地方的鄉親再發聲。第一,"},{"start":10700.782,"end":10723.653,"text":"但海輕軌二期的計畫已經10月底送到鐵道局要審理,那這已經來來回回了應該有3次了,到目前是不是能夠加快速度,趕快審理完畢?可以,我們可以再加速。太阪輕軌可行性計畫也在10月28號新北市政府已經送到交通部,應該是鐵道局在審理。對,鐵道局,是。"},{"start":10724.113,"end":10741.8,"text":"那這兩個計畫都是事關重大這兩個計畫什麼時候能夠給我們新北市府一個具體的答案我理解他們現在大概針對這些這個報告請各單位表示意見那後面我們會盡快的把這些相關的意見說上來"},{"start":10743.12,"end":10765.724,"text":"因為這兩個計畫都已經來來回回了據我的理解應該有兩次到三次所以我們希望這一次就可以是最後一次是能夠合訂、盡速合訂可以嗎?是對好那再來前瞻計畫裡面有停車場空間的一個部分當然現在有延期到114年的一個8月調整經費又總經費增加60億變260億嘛那本席提出來因為"},{"start":10769.625,"end":10796.477,"text":"淡水地區現在20萬的人口即將在這個禮拜就產生再加上你有看到相關的觀光景點淡水地區是過去這3年被國內國外人士認為是說最熱門的觀光景點之一對不對所以很多人講說淡水的停車空間只有20年前蓋捷運站的時候下面的一個停車場但是接下來都沒有比較大型的一個停車計畫"},{"start":10797.674,"end":10822.167,"text":"那這個部分,若地方政府提出來,是不是有支持的空間?如果有需求地方提出來,我想我們全力來支持。好,那本期也會儘速安排相關的會刊,我們找地方政府、中央政府一起來討論,看是不是能夠選定合適的地點,我們來研議,請地方政府提出計畫,來爭取我們的停車場建設。好,沒有問題。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝洪夢凱委員。"},{"start":10825.31,"end":10837.71,"text":"教育部要提出這個報告那如果中小學也進中小學部長是不是也會同意?叫招那部長同意嗎?接著請嚴坤衡委員"},{"start":10845.306,"end":10867.455,"text":"主席、各位練習官員大家好。主席有請國發會、水利署賴署長、交通部五次長。謝謝主席。我先請交通部林次長。"},{"start":10873.222,"end":10892.69,"text":"市長我想這次計畫第5期計畫交通部組織的部分超過144億我幫你整理軌道建設包含淡海、輕軌、台北萬大、桃園捷運系統、高雄鋼山、台鐵集集、台南市鐵路地下化"},{"start":10893.55,"end":10894.751,"text":"〈前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案゚〉"},{"start":10918.931,"end":10942.438,"text":"沒有一項跟臺中軌道建設相關,臺中的軌道建設零,零啊,真的是零所以叫臺中真的是,不只是我們這些臺中市的委員,臺中市的市民請回以堪這第一個,中央沒有把臺中的軌道建設捷運放在前瞻,我想要請問交通部"},{"start":10943.358,"end":10970.151,"text":"這個前瞻計畫當中軌道建設是零那我們之前包括國發會還有我們這個交通部承諾的這個烏日大慶段鐵路高架化還有海線鐵路雙軌化的部分第一個進度到哪裡再來就是烏日大慶段鐵路高架化現在在等國發會核定那烏日的這個情況大家知道"},{"start":10971.873,"end":10988.02,"text":"過去從大慶一直到豐原、鐵路高架超過300億都是由中央全額補助,地方不用負擔但是現在我們提的烏日大慶到烏日站的部分地方要負擔56%"},{"start":10989.921,"end":10990.962,"text":"財政部委員會主席財政部長"},{"start":11007.981,"end":11009.162,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":11031.994,"end":11036.977,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就：一、邀請相關部會首長就：一、邀請相關部會首長就"},{"start":11059.451,"end":11063.474,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":11080.188,"end":11105.299,"text":"為什麼會有這麼大的懸殊這第一個我要請交通部拜託你多多的關心台中台中部我請因為時間有限我請次長你針對我剛剛提問的部分做一個一次性的回答簡短的回答快點好不好所以我簡直報告一下剛剛提到那個費用的部分前瞻預算因為它預算有限那剛剛提到的譬如說我們以台中南線它其實編在公建裡面"},{"start":11105.879,"end":11128.387,"text":"請審議"},{"start":11129.348,"end":11150.27,"text":"蘇長,我加快因為我今天要講的就是我們台中南山解水溝的部分那你也很清楚一期、二期已經完成一期、二期加起來是6.5公里的河道已經完成但是工程的完整性最重要第三期就是整個延伸到上游清泉崗機場"},{"start":11151.311,"end":11152.551,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":11172.877,"end":11190.76,"text":"跟委員說明,事實上我們跟臺中市政府合作過去投資了50億,完成了二、三期的建設剛剛委員所談到的第一期的部分,我想整個沙鹿淹水最嚴重的地方大概光田醫院,它若是能從臺灣大道那邊"},{"start":11191.781,"end":11209.797,"text":"然後做一些提前的節流,導注到我們這邊來。主長,你剛剛提到的最重點,為什麼那邊會淹水?因為上游就在清泉崗機場,整個這個水都會往這個沙路的這個市中心來。所以我們剛剛提到一期、二期是在榮景段,榮景段已經完成了。"},{"start":11209.957,"end":11210.117,"text":"主席"},{"start":11228.84,"end":11229.3,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11248.291,"end":11260.912,"text":"委員好謝謝我們不好意思是我們的副主委現在就是說我們知道這一次八大項700多億對不對沒有一項在台中市"},{"start":11262.14,"end":11290.171,"text":"沒有一項跟台中有關係,都沒有。然後呢,超過一半400億是要靠這個競爭型預算來爭取。就是地方政府,剛剛念到的任何一個地方政府提出申請計畫,計畫寫得好、說得好、受到青睞,還是說中央計畫最後拍板點頭要哪個縣市就哪個縣市。我們一到四期超過7600億完成的部分,台中市佔208。"},{"start":11291.991,"end":11317.43,"text":"二零八、兩百零八億這個不用比較這大家都知道連高雄的零頭都不到高雄是一千兩百多億所以現在第五期我跟你講台中市在前瞻裡面比嘉義、比屏東更少人口是第二大、內基第六大但是我們呼籲就是說各部會還有國發會對於整個台中市的發展我希望是得到一個"},{"start":11319.031,"end":11342.643,"text":"公平一點的來處理不管是我們未來預算的申請還有這個建設的推動跟中央的要求的補助拜託大家公平對待可以嗎是是一定跟我們報告其實因為第5期預算規模有限所以像剛剛您提的捷運建設很多是在納到公建計畫我們上個會期我們那個剛剛提到的那個烏日大慶烏日站的部分現在還在國發會"},{"start":11344.464,"end":11364.489,"text":"不曉得什麼時間才會出來?我們會盡快處理。好不好?好,盡快。謝謝。謝謝委員。好,謝謝顏官橫委員。我們待會這個蘇巧惠委員執行完畢的時候,我們休息30分鐘讓大家吃飯。那30分鐘,中午,中午,到蘇巧惠委員的時候。這個就請萬美玲委員。"},{"start":11376.629,"end":11381.071,"text":"教育部、交通部、公路局、內政部、國土管理署以上代表"},{"start":11401.443,"end":11429.568,"text":"好部長先到我就先請教鄭部長部長本席也是政大畢業我們政大真的是一個校園非常美麗的地方我真的很沒有辦法想像如果說今天這麼美麗的一個校園然後我們看到穿著迷彩服的軍人走來走去走來走去的我覺得這個很違和的感覺真的問題很大那剛才聽你在說這一次政大這個叫召在政大是這個大學同意就可以是嗎"},{"start":11430.951,"end":11449.94,"text":"跟委員報告我現在確實這一個了解就以我們現在目前的辦法是大學我們尊重大學中小學是要地方政府他這一個同意那大學是由大專業校是由學校來決定那也跟委員補充說明"},{"start":11450.78,"end":11474.822,"text":"事實上他這一次的一個教召是在政大的後山那個創意中心他比較是不是本校區裡面的那個部長所以您現在講說您現在了解了嗎可見你之前一無所獲他是在政大的後山您的意思是這樣嗎是好那我覺得我們藉由今天這個議題來談那如果說今天教召到校園裡面去您個人身為教育部長您同意還是不同意"},{"start":11475.402,"end":11475.722,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11497.586,"end":11499.208,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":11517.128,"end":11518.369,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":11535.023,"end":11550.172,"text":"那也就是說在我們雲林的斗南高中那麼它也有一個類似像教招這樣子喔然後是被徵用喔那我請教一下今天來出用那我大學還可以決定我要或是不要、同意那今天來徵用的情況之下學校可以拒絕嗎?"},{"start":11553.223,"end":11573.903,"text":"就一個暫時來看我看很多的條例它的情況是不一樣的部長那您個人呢一般來講我們學校當然以教學為我現在一樣問教育部長您個人呢在平時學校就是以教學為重所以你也不贊成教教在學校內基本上只要有妨礙到教學老師的教學跟學生的學習好部長很好"},{"start":11574.784,"end":11574.804,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":11594.912,"end":11620.843,"text":"我想我的立場還是一樣只要學校因為第一個申請裡面它由地方政府來做決定那第二個是在教育部的立場我們希望不影響到這一個老師跟學生的教學還有學校的影響好 謝謝部長那您可以先回座我想我們就是不希望接下來我想先請教我想以上就交通部、公務局、內政部、國土管理署一起好 來這個我想這個交通部"},{"start":11624.224,"end":11647.365,"text":"行人安全這幾年我們看到行人地域我們一直在討論這個議題前幾天立法院旁邊的鎮江街也發生了這個旱事我們看到公車駕駛可能年薪經驗不足那造成了這個生命的消失還有傷者那我們看到根據最新的檔案統計今年1到8月行人交通死亡數來到228人比去年同期多了6人增加了2.7%"},{"start":11649.267,"end":11674.237,"text":"本席在之前質詢這個陳士凱部長那他也有提到說我們交通部現在要降低行人死亡率到7%那現在剩下不到兩個月的時間也就是要低於353人但是我們看到這個數字我們目前的統計是在這個8月可是我們看到往年的數字大概9月、10月、11月是一個高峰所以有沒有這個把握可以做到降低這個行人死亡率7%?有沒有?做不做得到?"},{"start":11679.04,"end":11687.99,"text":"這是我們努力目標沒有把握只是目標好接下來我們再來看前瞻計畫城鄉建設中有提升道路品質計畫原來定110年到113年現在延長到114年總經費也從459億增加到19.99億來到479億"},{"start":11697.24,"end":11706.984,"text":"國土管理署也在第5期編了65億來改善人行道路跟市區道路,對嗎?但是我們看,編了這麼多的錢但是我們的人行道總長110年8202公里112年8354公里只有微幅增加152公里1.8%全國市區人行道的普及率"},{"start":11718.888,"end":11723.872,"text":"從36.68%增加38.04%也只增加1.36%我們花了很多的錢但成效不彰接下來我們來看全國市區道路22358公里減少成為21962公里減少了362公里我們越改越短所以我們看到"},{"start":11741.826,"end":11766.457,"text":"我們錢花下去今天可能沒有太多時間跟你們質詢打詢但是會後這些要來回覆我到底這些錢花到哪去以上這三個數據這麼差再來還有一個最重要的一個點就是審計部提出了一個非常重要的點就是我們提升道路品質計畫完工之後我們沒有達到預期的效益目標國土署也沒有要求要檢討原因就結案這是這樣子沒有錯嗎"},{"start":11768.058,"end":11768.198,"text":"國土組委會議員"},{"start":11788.909,"end":11807.607,"text":"等到天荒地老然後成效不彰那最後我想內政部國土組跟交通部我們現在也有一個永續提升人行安全計畫4年400億那這個我們同樣是要改善這個人行道跟校園周邊的行車安全道路那剛才有講了我們都是1億個年度之後才來檢討本席要求"},{"start":11809.79,"end":11823.75,"text":"現在這些案子我們要來檢討一下整個人行道跟校園周邊的行程安全道路一週以內能不能把過去我們現在執行不好不利的這個績效跟評比可以把它這個送來跟本席可以嗎?"},{"start":11825.432,"end":11852.785,"text":"最後一個主席30秒很重要我想這個交通部我們桃園後站有個廣義停車場那之前要解決我們鐵路地下化之後停車不足的問題原本是7億的經費後來決標8.63億當時王國才前部長有承諾要補助桃園市二分之一也就是3.5億那麼後來只有補助2.8億不打緊其中的1.7億還是我們自己撤回文化局廣場地下停車場的經費拿來補助"},{"start":11854.346,"end":11858.168,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":11897.303,"end":11902.666,"text":"交通部兩位司長、運輸監理、科技資訊運輸監理、科技資訊林福山市長、黃興勳市長"},{"start":11919.095,"end":11947.561,"text":"兩位司長假車牌已經變成犯罪工具那麼很多犯罪者他當然會使用假車牌來製造斷點增加警方追緝的困難度而且假車牌這幾年也造成我們無辜市民都受害很多市民因為假車牌收到很多實質的罰單有一位市民甚至"},{"start":11949.83,"end":11958.961,"text":"這個一個月內收到是3張都是敗假車牌之士那麼這3年來假車牌從一年169件暴增6倍"},{"start":11963.066,"end":11990.076,"text":"到今年統計到現在為止已經1012件啊暴增了6倍之多所以如果我們單單只是照你們現在交通部做的就是說提高這個罰款你們確實罰款提高很多但是這是簡單講五個字治標不治本啊為什麼因為他既然要犯罪了比方說"},{"start":11992.738,"end":11999.803,"text":"責騙集團、車手他隨便跑一單欸!"},{"start":11999.803,"end":12016.614,"text":"詐騙的金額數十萬上百萬之多隨便他跑一單籌金也十幾二十萬他哪有怕你這個罰金你倍增你漲到一萬多塊他也沒關係啊不是嗎?那菜道集團更不用講啦"},{"start":12017.648,"end":12039.737,"text":"所以我認為解決的方式啦當然你們也有去宣導說這個網路不能再去販賣會去查緝這個可是這些要犯罪的人要購買假車牌假車牌的購買已經形成一個特殊的產業鏈"},{"start":12041.772,"end":12041.872,"text":"主席"},{"start":12072.347,"end":12095.183,"text":"三年前我們交通部還補貼桃園市政府交通局還跟桃園市政府一同做了這個大型車輛智慧管理辨識系統結果這個實驗計畫做得很成功當然人家當時的桃園市政府"},{"start":12096.263,"end":12097.183,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":12116.773,"end":12118.814,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":12136.509,"end":12160.083,"text":"這些結果我搞不懂為什麼你們不做現在我問了那個施策會他們說有啊這個技術他們研發很完整啦但是一直沒有看到聽到交通部跟他們有任何的這一方面跟他們做探討所以兩位司長你們看法呢就數位車牌你們就這樣不做了嗎"},{"start":12161.965,"end":12183.15,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下第一個就偽造車牌的一個這個部分的話那跟委員報告除了這個法律就是說修法提高這個罰款然後沒入車輛之外那實務上那基本上公務局跟內政部警務署還有其他部分的部分從這個就是說不敢賣買不到然後不敢用"},{"start":12183.91,"end":12185.471,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":12210.786,"end":12232.039,"text":"你還要討論多久?多久可以給我答覆?你剛講了半天我就是還沒聽到你有什麼期存你這個time table要出來嘛第一個你預估評估總共這樣建制要花費多少預算這個抓了你第二個你現在每年汽汽車車牌也發了一百多萬個啊不是嗎?"},{"start":12233.871,"end":12253.583,"text":"你喔 在短時間內打一份報告給我 給我們全體委員好不好到底數位車牌做還是不做大家這些先進國家都在做啦杜拜甚至人家他已經變成智慧車牌車子被偷了他車子還直接可以顯示我被偷啦"},{"start":12254.503,"end":12282.251,"text":"人家到這種地步喔欸那個欸那個主席不好意思齁我再簡單一點說您兩位請回兩位請回好不好你給我做一份這樣的報告出來齁這個集成還有預算抓一下桃園那個補助才一千萬人家就做得那麼好好不好我知道這個花費幾十億跑不掉了但是應該要做好不好請回我不好意思我再請那個那個"},{"start":12286.061,"end":12307.031,"text":"衛福部吼?衛福部吼?哪一位?廖司長是?部長來啦?你來最好!內政部董次長董次長吼?委員好部長、次長"},{"start":12308.426,"end":12334.671,"text":"財政部國庫署每年都發函給各部會說我們各部會是不是應該要發乙類公債來籌措這些資金結果言者尊尊聽者渺渺除了交通部以外交通部這10年來至少人家跟財政部的幫忙之下推了7檔的債券"},{"start":12338.277,"end":12359.406,"text":"那這些都很正確啊用在桃園這個航空城土地取得高速鐵路附近周遭周邊道路的建設這些都很正面那我為什麼找你們兩位提你們兩位啊是除了僅次於交通部以外公共建設最多的部長"},{"start":12360.97,"end":12387.938,"text":"我們衛福部有長照啊不是嗎還有各大醫學中心、教學醫院大型的區醫院、部立醫院等等這些整建修建這些都有自償性不是嗎現在長照正需要尤其是全日長照那內政部也是啊你們狹下有那麼多社會住宅"},{"start":12389.793,"end":12417.049,"text":"各項的公教人員住宅很多那我從來沒看到你們積極在辦理這一點那麼推動這些餘總債券的好處這個不用我說啦紓解公務預算的壓力嘛同時也引導我們民間的遊資能夠讓他們來參與公共建設來增加我們的國力促進我們經濟的發展"},{"start":12418.717,"end":12444.033,"text":"有點這麼多啊那結果你們這麼多年來四個字四個字變於形式要花錢變預算就有啦預算不夠那用借的跟銀行借銀行借利息都不低欸我看了各大銀行平均下來啦借你們大概都2.5到2.7以上啦喔"},{"start":12448.171,"end":12450.682,"text":"比他們借給蜀囂三兄弟還高。"},{"start":12452.628,"end":12481.6,"text":"所以這麼可惡的銀行體系那我另外再說所以我希望你們打起精神好不好對你們狹下的包括醫院、長照、包括社會住宅這些有意義的公共建設你們應該除了預算之外那應該籌措民間的遊資做移種債券好不好做這一部分的研究可不可以"},{"start":12482.22,"end":12482.521,"text":"蘇巧慧委員"},{"start":12506.753,"end":12535.409,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請國發會詹副主委然後交通部五次長農業部陳部長水利署署長還有我們的環境部彭部長抱歉我們先請國發會的詹副主委回答那其他的因為是時間的關係因為各要你們一句話所以請你們稍微準備一下各個部長及次長不好意思不好意思請你們稍等一下好詹副主委"},{"start":12536.209,"end":12563.906,"text":"我想今天我們來討論的是前瞻基礎建設的第5期啦那第5期的意思也就是表示我們整個前瞻計畫8年8400億終於到了尾聲那國發會作為一個這個計畫的主持人、主持單位我不曉得你在最後這一期的時候你要不要做一個總結和評論覺得這樣的一個特別預算在執行國家基礎建設的工程你現在對它的評價如何要不要再繼續未來"},{"start":12564.947,"end":12580.115,"text":"是跟委員報告根據特別條例其實整個計畫結束之後我們一定會做一個總評報告那我要你的現在啊那現在每個年度其實我們也有都有做一個人的評價啦是是是是不是一句話就可以了嘛正面負面"},{"start":12580.615,"end":12603.517,"text":"當然正面當然正面嘛這麼簡單的事情各個成績都在出來各個縣市都在爭取這麼簡單的肯定的一句話怎麼還要講這麼多次呢當然是肯定的啊而且事實上我們從歷任的總統來看連陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統每一個總統都有在對公共建設基礎建設進行大的投資計畫前瞻計畫也不過就是"},{"start":12605.939,"end":12626.198,"text":"是一樣在擴大台灣的基礎建設而已而且事實上成效卓著所以我在這裡今天的問題是問國防會有沒有打算在賴總統的任內再次提出我不管你叫什麼名字我不管你用什麼方式有沒有要對台灣的公共建設再次的提出相關可能的計畫"},{"start":12627.735,"end":12651.588,"text":"跟委員報告因為很多公共建設都是跨期比較長的又是跨域的所以這部分我們都會跟各部會討論會繼續推動這樣是要還是不要就重大的公共建設一定會繼續推動這是沒有問題的我問你的是要不要編列關於推動公共建設的計畫啊推動公共建設當然要啊"},{"start":12653.121,"end":12663.396,"text":"是對推動公共建設的計畫如果各部會跟地方都有需求的話叫行政院審議我們國發會一定會去繼續支持你至少可以就你個人表態吧"},{"start":12666.456,"end":12691.472,"text":"這部分的政策當然是會繼續支持各部會再提的公共建設計畫是沒有問題的國發會這樣就太客氣了竟然叫做國家發展委員會對於自己國家的公共建設竟然不敢大聲支持我是覺得這樣子是太弱了一點那委員在這裡要求國家應該要提出這樣的計畫再繼續支持整個台灣讓我們的城鄉差距可以縮小的公共建設計畫副主委那"},{"start":12693.653,"end":12716.652,"text":"請您先在旁邊休息齁我要的是這樣的計畫但是根據現在八年前瞻的經驗下來我認為有很多的標準可以討論一下比如說我在選區這邊其實我們剛剛也聽到很多委員質詢啊確實只要停車場、活動中心都是廣受歡迎的建設我要先請交通部五次長齁次長"},{"start":12719.652,"end":12732.686,"text":"這麼受歡迎的建設停車場你剛剛很多委員都在爭取你每一個上來你都答應他那到底最後所有的預算到底可以落在哪一個部分這是怎麼決定的"},{"start":12734.334,"end":12760.4,"text":"呃,聽張榮顧問吼,現在大概我們會...對啊,你每一個上來每一個都跟你爭取啊,每一個都說,次長你跟著我們去會刊啊,會刊以後是會協助地方政府啊,然後就答應,是這樣嗎?沒有沒有,這個還是要地方提出來以後,然後看我們的預算。是,其實是要地方提出來嘛,而且地方會就他所有要建設的可能他還會進行一個排序,不是嗎?是。"},{"start":12761.46,"end":12776.15,"text":"所以到底這個地方能不能夠得到中央前瞻這種特別預算的支持其實最重要的因素就是在地方的排序啊那你們有沒有對地方的排序做過檢核他為什麼這樣排他為什麼不是那樣排"},{"start":12777.751,"end":12777.871,"text":"主席"},{"start":12798.157,"end":12804.519,"text":"我認為不但是在第5期因為第5期還是有這種停車場的爭取所以部內這邊應該要對於標準地方提出來的要做一個考慮這是第一個然後未來如果將來還有特別預算的話"},{"start":12818.823,"end":12834.85,"text":"也應該要對地方政府的排序中央要能夠有一套能夠讓大家說服的旅遊標準這是我對交通部的建議那第二個的話不好意思我們要請環境部彭部長彭部長你可能會覺得這個跟你有什麼關係"},{"start":12836.03,"end":12859.101,"text":"但是我們新北市的肉品市場它有很大的汙水處理問題汙水處理問題可以用在什麼樣的計畫能爭取到經費呢其實是環境部的全國水環境改善計畫但是很遺憾的這個計畫依然是要地方政府提出申請所以你可能根本從來沒有看過這個計畫也不知道要怎麼補助但是部長"},{"start":12859.781,"end":12888.501,"text":"我想要為你這邊再多提出一個標準就是如果地方政府沒有提出申請的話那麼中央部會是不是可以基於考慮它的公益性還有影響的廣大性中央有沒有第二軌可以介入來支持地方的計畫我認為是應該要考慮的啊為什麼因為新北市肉品市場不是單純的新北市服務新北市民耶它是北台灣最大的屠宰中心啊"},{"start":12889.281,"end":12910.749,"text":"所以他所影響的現在的狀況是你污水不處理那就是旁邊受到污染然後天天給他開罰單可是處理下去以後那這個預算到底要由誰來支付中央要不要幫忙中央其實一直很願意幫忙啊但是地方沒有送上來的話我們沒有辦法介入嘛"},{"start":12911.269,"end":12925.981,"text":"所以部長我認為不管是在這個第5期或者是在未來的特別預算假設還有的話我認為像這樣子的計畫中央是不是有機會可以基於公益性影響範圍性介入調查介入支持"},{"start":12928.183,"end":12955.2,"text":"好,沒問題委員,這個部分我們會列入考慮。我藉著這個公開執行的機會,讓你了解有這樣的case。好,那最後我想請,謝謝。那我想請農業部的陳部長和水利署的二署長,兩個是講一樣的事情啦。這件事情其實是,這次三坨的颱風,像新北的金山,其實受到很大的災情。那謝謝我們農業部,還有水利署這邊都快速的來進行了整種的修復和災補的部分。但是,"},{"start":12955.66,"end":12980.457,"text":"我也想告訴大家也是跟兩個部會這邊做一個討論就是既然我們接下來要做治水的工程也是有可能會用到前瞻的預算我在這裡再一次的公開要求災區的工程要列為優先支援的項目災區的工程要列為優先支援的項目不曉得兩個單位能不能夠答應因為它已經就是會有問題了嘛"},{"start":12982.058,"end":13005.38,"text":"絕對同意委員這樣的一個想法,因為災區本身的一個附件,就是農水路的部分,我們一定會優先支持。是,水利署也一樣吧。百分之百認同,我們現在是朝這個方向協助。好,災區的部分,所以我想,謝謝兩位,謝謝陳部長和賴署長。所以我想我做個總結啦,我支持國家要繼續有預算支持公共建設,那不管它編列在哪裡,我認為要支持。"},{"start":13005.68,"end":13024.265,"text":"那各項的標準我認為地方當然有自主權但中央也要保有適度的介入空間這是我的論點謝謝各位部會首長謝謝好謝謝蘇巧慧委員我們現在中午休息30分鐘請大家用餐12點40的時候回到會場接著下一邊開始就邱盈瑩委員謝謝好現在休息12點40回來"},{"start":13044.372,"end":13046.876,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":13104.002,"end":13104.633,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13151.909,"end":13152.895,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":14990.964,"end":14991.904,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15022.06,"end":15038.676,"text":"這是我們這裡文化部部長李部長齁 文化部還有嗎文化部有齁 在那邊要叫誰嗎 一起 沒有"},{"start":15042.213,"end":15042.533,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15059.824,"end":15070.448,"text":"因為在這幾天來,本席和你們的部長都說到自己文創園區裡面,自己市政府有需要你們的協助。在這個過程當中,部長你知不知道這件事,來回答一下。"},{"start":15081.252,"end":15092.599,"text":"我知道這件事,我還陪過委員去看過嘉義文創園區。是這樣嗎?是。在這裡我也感謝部長很低調去教嘉義市的文創園區,尤其你看到文創園區的對面是美術館,你有什麼感受嗎?跟我們自己管理的文創園區裡面。"},{"start":15107.668,"end":15108.168,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":15137.681,"end":15142.006,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":15152.359,"end":15152.599,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15168.465,"end":15188.611,"text":"第一,整個部長都沒有交接下去喔!因為不是跟你們現任的部長,我後面會跟你們說,包括跟市政府,也有這個訴求跟要求,結果到某個位置,你們都沒有什麼規約或什麼嗎?"},{"start":15190.782,"end":15191.783,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15221.262,"end":15221.562,"text":"主席"},{"start":15242.615,"end":15242.855,"text":"市長謝謝你"},{"start":15271.107,"end":15271.307,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15288.877,"end":15317.069,"text":"到現在都沒什麼事?我跟委員報告,就是整個嘉義文創園區現在大部分都是歷史建築。歷史建築?我才知道,我才知道歷史建築。是是是,所以現在你做整個因應計畫的修改。沒有啦,你簡單給我說,當時可以回答說,你要當時可以告訴他,自己是政府、文化、教育、社會福利、社會福利的常識啦,這才重要啦。"},{"start":15318.373,"end":15319.034,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":15345.707,"end":15367.823,"text":"市長,你說不用交給他們用,這樣對家庭是比較方便,你說這樣,我感覺稍微顛倒了。不是不是,表委員報告就是說,因為在使用上面,現在單純上面就是說未來嘉峪文創園區做好之後,整個修復、再利用全部都取得建造、使用執照之後,"},{"start":15368.604,"end":15376.866,"text":"他基本上的應用大概就是文化部還有深美基金委還有嘉義市在地的所有的大家都可以一起來使用這個空間"},{"start":15378.175,"end":15392.487,"text":"來啦,因為市長沒地方在這,因為我這剩的時間,因為今天練習的時間很累啦。在這本學要跟你討論的就是說,你到目前為止,一國未來,你要怎麼WTO推動、怎麼做,可以讓自己做點嘗試的地方在哪裡,最無期間你們的考慮是什麼?"},{"start":15405.478,"end":15410.04,"text":"負責任何事項?負責任何事項?我覺得要有前進,不是在原地這樣踏步,這樣我覺得不好啦!先有一個公共機關,要做的事情,我們要有基金,我們要有經過頭,不是今天說說的,要要資料還是沒資料,要要你們幾位還是沒幾位,這樣對"},{"start":15433.513,"end":15444.97,"text":"我們的建構、文創、園區、包括家居、市政府都不好本身在這要求一國會來,本身所有的區委、電廠、他們要愛的區委"},{"start":15448.951,"end":15463.548,"text":"來這裡跟一星期來在我的辦公室說要如何跟市政府協商好不好來補充好嗎沒問題好謝謝好謝謝王美惠委員接著請張雅蓮委員"},{"start":15477.785,"end":15481.508,"text":"市委主席有請衛福部,然後待會會請文化部跟故宮。"},{"start":15495.732,"end":15512.233,"text":"部長好,我想少子化現象已經是我們台灣目前面臨一個很重大的挑戰就是我們的出生人口數已經創下歷史的新低,達到13.5萬人然後我們也邁入一個超高齡的危機之中那我想特別針對於前瞻基礎建設裡面的一個"},{"start":15514.809,"end":15515.65,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫"},{"start":15530.891,"end":15532.091,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":15559.895,"end":15574.567,"text":"我們在部件托育資源中心只有66.72%社區公共托育設施只有61.8%補助各縣市的偵測額上緊急與中長期安全機構的達成率更低低到46.54%"},{"start":15576.428,"end":15604.306,"text":"所以我們的預算執行率效率不佳那當然社家書是有說明說因為其實是因為營建成本的上漲導致多次流標以及地方政府規劃變更與行政作業程序的繁瑣已經函請了行政院公共工程委員會來協助改善這些招標文件但是我想針對於這些進度緩慢、績效指標未達標的情形我們是不是還有更具體的一個改善空間呢?"},{"start":15605.327,"end":15605.708,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15612.552,"end":15631.092,"text":"是地方政府工程標案多次流標、規劃設計多次修正,有時候變成結合新建工程手續要的費用高等等的這些,都是影響到社區公共、公共綜藝授資進度及經費執行會如議期。我們都有函請跟派員來督導。"},{"start":15635.436,"end":15656.741,"text":"二、實地訪潮還請專家來輔導,從各方面的專家來輔導。所以我們也有盡力在幫忙他們來完成這樣的一個進度。對,但是我們是連續兩年都沒有達標。我們是不是還可以有更積極的一個諮詢效率跟資源使用成效的一個方案呢?"},{"start":15657.614,"end":15684.1,"text":"由資料呈現其實是有其實是有成長像我們已經大概有到達76.42%都已經結案了我想部長因為我們其實因為少子化是一個國家面臨到一個很大的挑戰所以我覺得這個還是要詳細的而且精進的一些做法但另外就是說我們在這個因為現在其實我們雖然有在討論這個彈性家庭彈性暈價跟"},{"start":15686.681,"end":15689.402,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":15707.691,"end":15708.892,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":15736.107,"end":15736.428,"text":"委員好"},{"start":15738.786,"end":15765.688,"text":"部長好,就是我想請問一下就是說我們現在有一個叫做國家文化記憶庫2.0的一個特別預算案是我們非常重要的一個計畫可是一樣就是回到我們的前瞻第4期的執行是沒有如預期的像是我們的這個國家記憶庫及數位博物館應用只有到71.8%的一個執行率那你們是說因為系統防護啊、效能需求啊所以需要重新調整研擬細部工項所以才會延擋喔"},{"start":15766.608,"end":15791.787,"text":"但是我們也發現在國家文化記憶庫裡面可做下載做非商業用途的授權比例也只有達到25.84%跟26.26%其實比整體54.56%都還來得非常非常之低所以我想文化部的資料庫開放程度是非常需要來提升的"},{"start":15792.327,"end":15812.594,"text":"所以這個原因是不是反映了我們內部資料開放的流程過於繁瑣呢?我們有沒有一個具體的計畫來提升我們的授權比例呢?是,因為文化部跟其他單位不太一樣,它每一個資料都有可能有著作權的,涉及到著作權,我想這一點未來我們要去克服它。"},{"start":15813.888,"end":15833.367,"text":"我想我可以理解但是我想這個因為我們的授權比例實在是太低了已經不到一半不到四分之一這實在是太誇張了我們是不是可以有進一步的簡化下載的流程授權流程呢來提升這些非商業利誘資料的可及性是我想我們回去檢討然後給你寫個報告"},{"start":15835.829,"end":15836.89,"text":"民間團體與教育組織合作推廣方案"},{"start":15865.469,"end":15892.961,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":15899.98,"end":15926.514,"text":"市長好我想我們經濟部的能源署在我們高雄的興達廠設立的高雄海洋科技產業創新區專區我們就稱為海創區好了那我想請問一下這項計畫總積分是42.63億後來因為展延現在增加到51.49億那第二期又多了一個深水池興建的工程又多了3.78億你覺得成效如何?"},{"start":15929.531,"end":15930.836,"text":"市長,您覺得成效如何?因為我們今天時間非常有限"},{"start":15938.231,"end":15943.574,"text":"我們成效是有達到當初我們設計的有嗎?有成效?我們來看一下有沒有達到這個部分這個審計部的決算報告告訴我們因為你們的界面整合很複雜建制技術很高所以工程一切的展現重要的是當初我們說好要做在離岸風電廠的這個有關於實驗場域的騎乘"},{"start":15960.422,"end":15960.562,"text":"主席"},{"start":15981.334,"end":15981.614,"text":"主席"},{"start":15999.159,"end":15999.839,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":16015.166,"end":16038.184,"text":"中鋼投資的興達海基這是我們國內唯二水下基礎工藝商6年虧了64億而且最重要是完全沒有風電的業務我們當時希望是能夠有風電的這樣子一個生產培植我們本土的人員培植我們本土的技術然後你旗下20餘家的協力廠商員工報了離職潮次長你有掌握嗎?"},{"start":16040.356,"end":16052.751,"text":"六年64億然後你是學氣管的好不好然後我們接下來再來看一下我再告訴你一個選項我們有為二的一個興達海基是我們中鋼的子公司六年課的64億另外一個世紀鋼在我們台北港"},{"start":16055.214,"end":16056.816,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":16076.099,"end":16087.907,"text":"請問這兩個為二的地方為什麼差這麼多?然後呢我們興達海基除了中東的子公司之外我們的國發的基金也有投資請問學氣管的次長你要不要對這兩個公司的命運稍微解釋一下?"},{"start":16089.268,"end":16089.428,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16110.073,"end":16117.735,"text":"當初你們宣稱可以產生1.2兆的產值2萬個工作機會但是我就拿審計部的報告來喔第二個階段當中你們10個風場去年有9座是落後的而且呢海峽一期的風場本土化目標只有2成我們再往下來看你們當初告訴我們你們編列了2億8千萬左右然後你們給我們的升級輔導計畫裡面怎麼講你告訴我市場需求需要337座"},{"start":16137.381,"end":16139.302,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":16158.954,"end":16161.335,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":16178.283,"end":16205.959,"text":"告訴我們跟我們要錢的時候告訴我們是339座你們做得到現在只有53座然後國內的供應鏈一年都可以慘賠到64億一年虧10億然後你現在為止因為WTO的問題現在已經想要拿掉國產化和政策的保護沒有國產化和政策保護你覺得這些供應鏈還有什麼辦法存活還有什麼辦法存活這些都是我們在之前已經提出來過了所以我真的還是要問的它的未來在哪裡"},{"start":16206.659,"end":16225.024,"text":"新島海基目前為止連一張離岸風電的訂單都沒有繼續燒錢海創中心本來說是一個非常棒的訓練中心現在變成出海前的人員訓練中心而且台灣目前為止你不知道風電的技術多麼多麼的先進目前為止我們是9.58到9.5的MW但是你不要忘記未來是14到15的MW我們完全沒有這個辦法"},{"start":16233.726,"end":16259.045,"text":"所以你告訴我們到底是怎麼一回事我們這個前瞻的錢還要繼續投資下去嗎目前的數據完全告訴你的落差這麼大還要再投資下去嗎你若要我們投資下去你是不是可以給我們一個理由給我們一個分析的理由而且我覺得台北港的世紀港訂單接不完而我們高雄的這個地方就連連虧損我真的覺得民進黨政府真的是重北輕難啦重北輕難啦 對不對"},{"start":16261.287,"end":16281.713,"text":"市長我們高雄的這個部分就要到我們這樣子虧這麼多臺北的都可以賺這麼多我跟委員報告一下其實我們也在協助這個星達海基那是不是也可以有一些這個離岸風電的這些商機也能夠來給我當然也希望能夠本土但是你的數據我剛才還是強調數據會算數據差距這麼多數據差這麼多技術這麼樣不讓你前進你是不是要檢討你的政策"},{"start":16289.895,"end":16317.895,"text":"提供這個新打廠能夠讓我們這個部分符合你們當初所承諾的沒有問題但是經過這麼多年來我們以前提出這個問題沒有部分來解決而且更何況我們拿掉了國產的保護化測試之後你看這些該怎麼辦中央可以把很多錢給予中央的福利可是配合政府的政策還要國發基金進來結果竟然虧損連連你讓中央員工的很多福利因此受到損害我當然為高雄的中央講一句話難道不是嗎"},{"start":16319.715,"end":16344.62,"text":"我想我們會來協助新的海基我還是希望你若要我們放這樣的一個預算進去請你拿出你們可以解決的方法包括現在的問題、未來的問題還有我剛所點出了從8到9的Megawatts你們都目前為止可以未來已經到14到15了歐洲的部分我們還有辦法拿到離岸風靈的訂單嗎現在沒有當初你們告訴我陪日本土化你們可以拿到這些訂單我們非常好"},{"start":16345.6,"end":16363.246,"text":"希望大家能夠透過國外的藝術精進可以讓我們國內也可以發展顯然廠商都撤離了還沒有達到這個一張一張訂單都沒有這個部分姿勢體大次長你務必給我們一個交代這才是我們今天審慎前瞻最主要的監督的目的謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝柯志恩委員接著請王煌威委員"},{"start":16376.368,"end":16376.608,"text":"主席"},{"start":16395.97,"end":16419.986,"text":"好,市長,剛才我們柯志恩委員所講的這個新達海基,64億,他這樣封店嘛,對不對,通知封店。昨天呢,在我們的追加預算的諮詢裡面,我們特別來諮詢包含院長跟部長在內,也就是在上週金週刊有做一個綠店蟑螂,"},{"start":16421.991,"end":16436.425,"text":"也就是說現在包含全台的風電也好或光電也好事實上很多的資金很多的資源流入了綠電蟑螂所以我們要求院長一定要打擊這個綠能蟑螂"},{"start":16438.186,"end":16454.833,"text":"因為今天不管是我們追加預算也好或者是我們的前瞻預算也好我們以為我們以為我們是要去發展綠能我們以為我們要去發展再生能源但是是不是我們只是在餵蟑螂"},{"start":16456.934,"end":16482.065,"text":"為這些綠能蟑螂所以在這個部分請經濟部在我們所有的國營事業相關在投資相關的綠能裡面不要弊病重生啊新打海極現在看起來是大幅的虧損但是我們還不知道裡面會不會有藏著其他的貓膩如同台鹽一樣台鹽的前董事長都跑路了"},{"start":16483.2,"end":16502.217,"text":"到現在已經快一個月了到底在海外還是在台灣內部都不知道前國營事業董事長太難看了這個拜託經濟部在我們整個執行國營事業的轉投資相關的綠能產業的時候不要變成綠能蟑螂的幫兇可不可以"},{"start":16505.376,"end":16505.596,"text":"主席"},{"start":16535.447,"end":16563.388,"text":"前瞻預算計畫執行到現在明年是最後一期嘛對不對但是呢這幾年下來前瞻製造了非常非常多的蚊子管比如說前一陣子就出現在屏東西市場它本來呢號稱所謂的五星級市場當時也是風光開幕啊但是呢最近呢發現七一層的攤商抱怨啊沒有辦法賺錢"},{"start":16564.969,"end":16587.934,"text":"所以這個屏東西市場大概很難避免最後又變成一個文字市場之前包含屏東市的6個停車場我也曾經說包含我們的審計部也有報告也是一樣啊也是文字館還有谷山的漁市場所以主席長我最後要請教你我們前瞻預算1到4期的資金來源是什麼"},{"start":16593.584,"end":16600.211,"text":"主要是舉債舉債好明年700億的第5期的預算請問資金來源是什麼也是舉債還是舉債好大家聽到了8400億的前瞻預算特別預算每億毛錢都是來自舉債"},{"start":16614.525,"end":16627.341,"text":"每億毛錢都是來自舉債當我們在這邊常常在那邊高聲疾呼說財政紀律結果8400億都是舉債我幫你算了一下啦8400億全部舉債"},{"start":16631.044,"end":16648.328,"text":"最後留下文字館而且是債留子孫舉債就債留子孫啊我們不可能在短時間內這一兩年內把8400億還掉對不對台灣人一人平均光是養錢占一個人負擔3.65萬"},{"start":16651.189,"end":16674.785,"text":"光是養前瞻,我們可以回顧一下前瞻到底做了什麼樣的事情。治水,常講治水預算,可是呢?淹水越來越多不是嗎?然後說地方的建設,但是文字館不是越來越多嗎?我們去回顧花了8400億人民有感的在哪裡?結果一人花了3.65萬是在養前瞻。"},{"start":16677.455,"end":16699.823,"text":"所以我們今天是要再去看明年剩下700億然後繼續是舉債的支出嘛舉債來支應前瞻所以我們必須說啊邊好邊滿借好借滿完全欸完全都是用舉債的方式我們到底要留給我們子孫是什麼"},{"start":16700.922,"end":16714.198,"text":"再留子孫嗎?還是再留曾孫嗎?8400億這也就是我們長期以來認為特別預算長期編列腐爛而造成了我們的財政紀律之敗壞財政赤字"},{"start":16716.701,"end":16719.464,"text":"謝謝王宏偉委員接著請陳超明委員"},{"start":16754.311,"end":16760.597,"text":"謝謝主席首先有請我們主席出陳主席長還有我們財政部陳組長委員好那個我先看看"},{"start":16775.968,"end":16800.77,"text":"我們的陳主席長其實這個前瞻計畫到第4期已經差不多尾聲了也就是要做檢討的時候我今天怎麼站在這裡呢除了苗栗縣受到很多不公平的待遇大家都覺得苗栗縣的財政困難苗栗縣被你們財政部跟紙巨部監控那我現在請你看一個表"},{"start":16801.977,"end":16815.106,"text":"我現在很簡單就以五年度108年到112年度那以五級縣市苗栗縣、嘉義縣、屏東縣來做比較這五年之內苗栗縣創會給中央是1387億嘉義縣354億屏東縣890億"},{"start":16832.489,"end":16846.116,"text":"那108年到112年苗栗縣得到中央的補助就是一般跟補助款跟同仇的夫婦配款苗栗縣707億、嘉峪縣841億、屏東縣1234億我苗的冠帖人中央基攤288億"},{"start":16858.902,"end":16862.606,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":16871.808,"end":16888.637,"text":"這樣敢說嗎?所以我一直講,有替你中央創稅的盈餘,你起碼也給我們鼓勵一下,無極限制。今天白天把你們愛情、把你們討錢,把你們站在這裡把你們討下去,實在討得很不公平,討得很不爽。"},{"start":16894.142,"end":16911.516,"text":"主席長,這個都有確實的失敬,你放心。我十幾年都用這個表,你們從來都不敢,顏色太重。我說有母女的孩子始終沒有糖可以吃,你們這個政府到底是怎樣在看?不要互相忘,以前的主席長都很老奸。"},{"start":16912.776,"end":16937.998,"text":"我現在直接給你看、給你了解因為第4期了大概都已經確定了所以我希望說你新任的主席長跟你的財政部長都都可憐的苗栗縣但是我們努力分發向上每年都參照所以說以前借的錢就是今天已經這個成果已經展現了所以我希望你以後"},{"start":16941.089,"end":16965.105,"text":"多多關心苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的看法怎麼樣?苗栗縣主席長,你的"},{"start":16966.67,"end":16976.961,"text":"整個加起來它比去年成長11.7那比一般的縣市還高我比一般縣市還要高我等一下拿給你看這個日劇是112年、113年沒可能到關你不要搞我好我是今天還沒看你們的錢出了多少還沒決算出來了"},{"start":16986.791,"end":16995.582,"text":"以屏東來講,屏東才成長百分之七喔!我們是以一百一十四年度和一百一千五百三十一億欸!如果說拿一百七百空七億欸!他現在免費就不夠了!"},{"start":17003.652,"end":17003.952,"text":"我一樣的嘉義縣、屏東縣"},{"start":17034.903,"end":17044.829,"text":"我用這個三個縣市做比較,這個叫做五級財政。苗栗關加貼一百公倍億,嘉義關貼兩百二十六億,檳榔關貼兩百十六億"},{"start":17052.386,"end":17062.419,"text":"當然要提到財,還有從頭分配款分到財,有夠啊,它很油、很綠灰灰的,不然不是你們的,就這樣求負,我給你們攤到這裏,你們也給我們找補助一個、鼓勵一個"},{"start":17069.251,"end":17077.994,"text":"委員這一個部分是國發會的分配國發會我的經濟委員會拿來拿去 您是很會推的 我所以好好會監督您不是在國發會當然我當初是努力在開設 創造地方優良的投資環境我會多花錢 但是我歲數已經回來了嘛"},{"start":17095.902,"end":17096.082,"text":"主席"},{"start":17111.346,"end":17111.766,"text":"有董事長喔?"},{"start":17143.664,"end":17151.588,"text":"主席長、財政部長,我苦苦抱怨,我做哈固的民意代表一春二春,人家又這樣,再講白一點好不好。"},{"start":17153.855,"end":17174.01,"text":"內政部的董事長委員好苗栗縣的警察局在蓋是最終核定是內政部以前瞻第4期要補給苗栗補治14.多億對對嗎?已經補了怎麼說要補完?已經補過了你現在還補11億而已?不,管府已經同意了已經開始興建了啊!我們是忍耐,你就是這樣求福"},{"start":17180.495,"end":17196.625,"text":"你現在還有人這樣很強辯的,你叫他們補充給我做。那個蔣正石要來跟我講,一直來拜託,他們連怕部長,他們蔣事長怕被換掉,這樣的執行立法,我是很不敢玩的。"},{"start":17198.791,"end":17207.377,"text":"您怎麼這樣講話?您的公文是同意補資14.8億捏?是。啊你們怎麼只有補資苗栗縣11.4億?啊物價上漲,我們現在自己苗栗縣要去你經測局的總局?警察、縣警察是屬於中央的?"},{"start":17218.416,"end":17219.077,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":17237.458,"end":17243.382,"text":"警察局、縣警察局屬於中央的,地方出行人給你企業的,你自己的地方要企業來營的,要出來營,這樣更不合理。"},{"start":17257.51,"end":17284.928,"text":"您以前別的情願補助,您來了解一下,您把您保證好好做。不要以為他有靠山喔。沒有啦,我們現在要跟他約啦,沒有辦法啦,不然警察要蓋就一次蓋好了啦。您再去那裡,沒力,明天我等您,到我辦公室來,為討文件對一次,好不好?好,謝謝。"},{"start":17287.608,"end":17290.009,"text":"主席、委員、各位官員好,我想請衛福部部長"},{"start":17314.932,"end":17332.843,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天啊本期想跟你一起關心一下食安的議題因為之前我在質詢這個前瞻4期預算解凍的時候就有反應過這件事這個1到4期的食安總經費大概只有佔8400億上限的0.47規模但我們在第4期"},{"start":17338.627,"end":17365.681,"text":"解凍案處理之前就發現我們從今年1月到現在食安的風暴不斷所以提醒大家應該要正視這個問題並且在前瞻第5期預算還沒有拍板就必須要看到預算過低的問題不然就會讓大家持續陷入在食安的風暴中那我想問一下這次的前瞻第5期食安建設項目除了衛福部之外是不是沒有別的中央機關編列了是不是"},{"start":17369.516,"end":17397.273,"text":"我想我們有核定,有關於食安有一個...第5期,第5期有增加我們編列的...不是,你這集的...第5期那個...前瞻啦!對,前瞻前瞻,我們...我們這個建設...你講一下沒關係我是食藥署的副署長,跟委員報告那個我們食安的第5期有編列編列的是3.5億元比那個第4期還要多"},{"start":17398.033,"end":17421.007,"text":"所以是有增加的以上報告不過13.5億元換算在這個前瞻總上限佔的比例只有0.15%它的比例是下降的跟委員報告我們是每一期比較啦我們那個第5期跟第4期第4期是編了14.4億所以我們並沒有說有下降"},{"start":17422.199,"end":17443.03,"text":"好,我們來看一下為什麼想要提醒你們這件事情。請你們看一下這個表,因為食藥署應該會知道說每一年你們的中毒案量的統計是按計的是嗎?我們每個月都會有統計。每個月?那你現在手上有沒有數據至今已經11月,你有沒有到10月的數據?"},{"start":17444.441,"end":17470.984,"text":"跟委員報告我們大概是每一季會公布就是每個季底會公布上一季的結果因為衛生局他要去做案例的調查因為我現在只有到第一季就是說2024年到4月的食物中毒案量不是人數是中毒的案量就已經超過以前一整年的全年的案量那你有沒有到第二季的數據"},{"start":17473.105,"end":17492.823,"text":"目前統計中那會話我們提供給委員你心中有沒有超過去年你只要告訴我這個就好了報告委員有今年的實績統計案件確實比去年多是所以不是應該要更重視這件事畢竟你們前瞻只有你們在編實案的預算"},{"start":17494.162,"end":17520.124,"text":"跟委員報告我們食安不是光前瞻我們自己本預算還有食安五環那個行政院有給我們食安五環的預算在做食安之後我還會再跟你們要最新的數據一直到10月11月許多家長非常的遊行才剛公佈營養午餐不可以放咖哩因為又驗出違法的蘇丹紅還有這種動物體內的針頭流到加工廠又流到營養午餐的廠商"},{"start":17521.145,"end":17538.917,"text":"這些都是全民最關注的事情,我也希望大家可以在今年、明年繃緊神經,看要怎麼樣改善好嗎?是,我們會全力改善。對,我問一下,你們這個13億是不是大部分都拿來做食安署大樓的建設?"},{"start":17540.268,"end":17569.543,"text":"跟委員報告因為要有好的大樓空間還有新的儀器設備我們才有辦法落實食安的進行好這個我都可以理解但是您有知道現在地方第一線的食安稽查人力是嚴重吃緊嗎尤其是這個保齡事件之後這個臺北市衛生局稽查科貼招聘公告已經貼了5次到今年4月都補不滿還差兩個補到昨天我來"},{"start":17570.323,"end":17588.885,"text":"檢查我的質詢內容還是差兩位高雄市也在缺人、桃園也在缺人我知道你需要新的大樓、新的儀器、新的設備可是如果你沒有想辦法解決你的預算可不可以編到他們地方政府疏解人力的這個部分呢"},{"start":17589.551,"end":17611.883,"text":"報告委員那個稽查工作確實很辛苦啦那我們的食安計畫裡面有補助地方的稽查人力有確實是有不是從前瞻是從另外的前瞻裡面有錢然後食安的五環裡面從5億提高到10億新的行政院長合併提高到10億所以給地方的補助都有"},{"start":17612.443,"end":17635.579,"text":"好,最後一題而已,一分鐘。也請部長注意齁,我們今天樓下在討論這個職場霸凌的事,也有人揭發說機關署的整備組組長,他有這樣土皇帝的行為。那羅一鈞說大概兩個月可以有報告,剛剛樓下這個勞動部說他們10天就可以有報告,你覺得像這樣子的事情需要拖到兩個月嗎?"},{"start":17636.38,"end":17648.377,"text":"我會要求那個機關署進速報告,因為他們已經成立小組,請外面跟內部的專家再瞭解,一定進速報告。好,謝謝主席,謝謝部長。謝謝。謝謝陳金輝委員。接著請吳立華委員。"},{"start":17665.508,"end":17687.499,"text":"謝謝主席等一下兩個單位先原民會後面國發會原民會原民會主委曾主委國發會副主委曾副主委"},{"start":17688.881,"end":17704.619,"text":"主委好委員好您很清楚我們原鄉就是原住民的鄉鎮它的財務結構絕大多數都是仰賴中央的補助而且比例很高我隨便抽三個"},{"start":17705.76,"end":17709.062,"text":"以牡丹鄉來講,仰賴中央62%,堅實鄉56%,桃園區89%。所以呢,對我們來講,我們很需要中央的挹注。那你們原民會,"},{"start":17722.85,"end":17743.45,"text":"這年有補助地方叫做基本設施維持費,那這個呢其實對原鄉來講很重要可是我們來看一下,像以面積來看,我們全台最大鄉鎮面積排名全部前23名是原鄉"},{"start":17745.054,"end":17765.203,"text":"所以原鄉是因為地區幅員遼闊我們所需要處理的地方的基礎建設非常的多所以對公所來講負擔呢非常的大那這幾年我們有前瞻的預算我們來看一下前瞻基礎建設預算以你們原民會來看"},{"start":17766.283,"end":17784.652,"text":"如果我們看這個其中一個項目叫做部落內的公共設施改善成果很豐碩喔特別是像文件站這個部分空間的整建也得到很豐碩的成果那我們來看一下在第4期預算也就是112年到113年"},{"start":17787.293,"end":17807.21,"text":"以這個我剛剛講的部落內的公共設施改善你們編了3.2億但是第5期1000萬所以想要問主委落差這麼大那麼編列的時候你們是怎麼評估那因為時間的關係你也先不用回答等一下統一回答"},{"start":17807.85,"end":17824.784,"text":"好,為什麼我這樣問?我們來看你們別的科目以這個多元產業2.0在第4期的時候編了6億第5期編了4億你看這個落差太大了那我們來看以我講的這個6億然後編成4億"},{"start":17827.586,"end":17851.615,"text":"他的一個預算跟決算你看原本7000萬結果實際是2800萬然後看各地方政府的執行率也都在兩成、四成、五成甚至有人是百分之八所以這樣的一個方式我就要提醒我要請教主委你看我們依賴我們百費待舉啊"},{"start":17854.016,"end":17875.545,"text":"尤其是推動文件站之後全國有幾百個文件站幾乎每個部落都有這個是很重要的一個對我們原鄉的一個政策可是我們用的都是什麼你最清楚我們用的是閒置的派出所、閒置的檢查照、閒置的學校、閒置的衛生所等等等"},{"start":17876.585,"end":17903.308,"text":"那些都是不安全結構的百廢待舉啊甚至你也最清楚知道我們有很多的困擾是來自於我們根本土地不合法也沒有建造也沒有實用執照連要爭取政府的補助都爭取不來所以我要講的是說部落這麼多傳統屋、入口意象、文件站、活動中心、運動空間集會所、家屋等等等"},{"start":17903.928,"end":17925.957,"text":"我們太需要原民會挹注經費來改善,所以我想請教主委,你會調整嗎?你會願意去處理這些問題嗎?例如編經費去處理補照的問題,可以嗎?可以,我跟你講可以,我們可以來研究,而且我們也在往這個方向在走。好,那我希望一周內來說明好不好?好,再請教一下國發會。"},{"start":17929.458,"end":17938.946,"text":"副主委您好剩下一點點時間我就快速講我要說的是這幾年對我們原鄉來講我們聽到地方創生都很興奮都很願意報計畫可是我隨便講一個以農業部來講我們可以看到我隨便抽一個他說經費編3.59億然後執行率53.88%這個執行率很差"},{"start":17955.62,"end":17983.056,"text":"甚至他提到說促進青年參與才50人次這個質詢力不好吧但是我沒有要講農業部因為都差不多為什麼因為我舉個例子尤其是我們原鄉很辛苦啊我們碰到很多土地的問題法規的問題我舉個例子他想要做溫室不行想要做機設不行想要做加工廠不行想要做小型屠宰場什麼都不行"},{"start":17984.236,"end":18004.215,"text":"這個怎麼執行?怎麼地方創生?你應該很清楚。好,那我們常常就在講,像我們處處受限制,原鄉大部分都在國家公園保留地、原保地、同地、同化區。他一旦遇到法規,曠日廢時,很辛苦,所以很難有執行率。所以我常常說,"},{"start":18005.356,"end":18020.174,"text":"我們好在國土計畫法上路有一個第23條給我們一個原住民族土地管制規則來解套可是我要說的是我們也應該要想辦法不能夠一年一年看著執行率不佳"},{"start":18021.275,"end":18039.87,"text":"我們要去正視像是我常常講可不可以做一個沙盒計畫鬆綁一些法規找一些事辦場域而且要立法像我們原住民我們就很想要原保條例提升法律外接要不然我們怎麼面對水保法森林法什麼都不能做"},{"start":18040.991,"end":18070.351,"text":"所以地方創生促進法我不知道什麼名字我不知道國發會有沒有這個想法那總之從105年開始講108年創生元年到現在快要10年了所以我覺得我們包括我們的融資的優惠針對這一些提供融資、租稅、金融的優惠應該要另立專法或專案的方式我想日本之所以成功就是我剛剛講的他都做到了所以副主委您怎麼看"},{"start":18071.592,"end":18071.852,"text":"李坤澤委員"},{"start":18095.185,"end":18096.446,"text":"交通部五次長、氣象署陳署長、鐵道局理副局長"},{"start":18112.246,"end":18132.502,"text":"市長好 委員好我想氣象局升格為氣象署是我提案推動的就是希望在極端氣候的肆虐之下能夠更精準的來預報氣象的相關的能力來保障國人的生命財產的安全那我們對於"},{"start":18134.103,"end":18147.331,"text":"氣象署要提升我們的電腦預算能力,現在已經是第6代的超級電腦,來,署長說明一下,我們現在是第6代的超級電腦嗎?而且是全球500大超級電腦裡面是排名69名"},{"start":18153.026,"end":18178.538,"text":"我們第6代在去年建置完成在今年2月啟用裡面的CPU的算力是10個PETAGPU是2PETA那在3月的時候是69不過我們有超級大電腦但是相關的AI的運算的能力其實現在還是靠著傳統的我們相關的數據的相關的輸入傳統的技術或是物理天氣的模式或是資料同化的技術觀測的數據那其實我們"},{"start":18181.139,"end":18183.521,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":18203.917,"end":18224.513,"text":"你看就有那麼多的颱風這種歷史資料是不足的因為首次有這樣的狀況那新型大的氣象事件是無法去準確的預測的那訓練模型需要引入模擬的數據那當然會增加儲存跟預算的壓力那這個部分我們有沒有做相關的考量有沒有做相關的規劃來說明一下"},{"start":18226.114,"end":18249.163,"text":"目前其實在之前蘇院長就支持我們目前有一個計畫正在申請然後行政院已經原則核定基本上是一個9年的計畫總計畫經費是達到75億大概每年有5億的預算其中高速電腦的採購部分大概是38億左右這個很重要另外我有幾個具體的建議我們強化氣象資訊基礎的建設計畫"},{"start":18253.524,"end":18280.426,"text":"應該要提升它的運算能力降低預測的成本剛才署長也有做了一點說明要納入更多的情境的模擬應應極端氣候資料不足的這樣的一個問題那更重要跟科技領先的國家來共同合作來提升AI的技術突破數據跟運算的一個瓶頸那建立全球性的這種資料的共享機制強化模擬的數據準確度來,署長簡單說明一下"},{"start":18282.868,"end":18303.636,"text":"是,我非常認同委員的認知那我們目前這個計畫正在進行其實在過去3年氣象署已經投入了相當的AI的計畫我們也跟NVIDIA做了合作當然在未來在新的計畫裡面我們會加速進行那這個部分也是特別院長特別有要求我們要加速進行"},{"start":18304.136,"end":18318.725,"text":"另外署長我在2012年來因為我看2011年的這種福島大地震所以在那個時候我就推動國家級警報的設置也要求交通部建立相關的細胞廣播系統那現在"},{"start":18320.492,"end":18321.253,"text":"現在目前的進度呢?"},{"start":18350.335,"end":18376.863,"text":"這個部分我們的修正計畫行政已經通過所以目前我們正在做發包的動作這個必須要加緊他的相關的速度好最後吳次長對於高雄的捷運黃線捷運現在是已經在動工那當然我們也會碰到相關的國際原物料上漲的這樣的一個趨勢或者是缺工缺料其實我們看到營建工程的相關成本"},{"start":18377.703,"end":18397.59,"text":"對比2021大概都已經是上升大概10%至20%那部分的原料甚至上漲到30%黃線捷運就必須要追加相關的一個預算而另外一條更重要的現在在做可行性的這個報告可行性評估已經出來了現在已經進行到可行性的這個報告"},{"start":18398.49,"end":18399.151,"text":"指限捷運的進度"},{"start":18424.125,"end":18438.476,"text":"現在高雄市政府還沒送上來?相關的補充資料還沒有送上來?對,還沒有。我們會跟高雄市政府以及鐵道局還有交通部我們來盡速的加快它的一個進度。李副局長有要做補充嗎?快。補充報告一下,那個紫線因為修正了剛送進來,我們在審查當中。已經送進來,我記得是送進來吧?對。好,我們再繼續來相關的聯絡來推動它的一個進度。謝謝。"},{"start":18451.625,"end":18452.246,"text":"黃秀芳 衛福部長"},{"start":18477.273,"end":18504.763,"text":"委員好部長好部長我針對這一次這個前瞻基礎建設第5期的特別預算當中就是有一個因應少子化友善育兒空間的建設那這個預算總共是4億7244萬那其實我要講的就是說我們針對少子化大家都認為少子化是國安議題那這個前瞻基礎建設的這個特別預算我覺得只有編4億"},{"start":18506.584,"end":18521.123,"text":"四億七千兩百四十四萬確實是很少那另外我想請教就是說我們在這個這個少子化友善育兒空間的建設就是要建構0到2歲兒童社區公共化托育計畫工作內容"},{"start":18521.844,"end":18546.662,"text":"有推動社區公共托育設施、布建托育資源中心還有增設或改善社會福利服務中心、整建兒少家庭福利館還有改善兒少緊急及中長期的安置機構這些項目那我想請教就是說在這幾年當中你們竟然有編這樣的一個預算那我知道就是說你們補助給地方政府其實有時候是"},{"start":18547.502,"end":18573.691,"text":"幾十萬,有時候是一兩百萬,確實都非常的少那這個你們如果說要達到這樣的一個這個少子化有三育兒空間的建設其實你只有給縣市只有幾十萬、一兩百萬其實我很難想像說會有什麼樣的效益啦所以我是不是可以請部長先回應一下在這幾年當中你們這樣子補助這個地方政府那有得到什麼樣的效益嗎?"},{"start":18576.812,"end":18591.537,"text":"好,我們一到四期也補助了52億那當然每期從最早的6億到14億、18億、13億那今年的4.7億主要是針對要設立18個新設的推動這個社區公共托育及這個"},{"start":18600.28,"end":18611.345,"text":"原公子女這個壽司大概有18個另外就是有編列、推秀散的一些會用還有整建一個兒少家庭福利館"},{"start":18615.205,"end":18637.453,"text":"有關過去的成效是不是鄒家索可以簡單報告一下部長我現在要講的就是說從我們整個國家認為少子化確實是一個國安議題從去年我們的新生兒13萬5000左右那到今年在我記得在10月份的時候我這個諮詢部長的時候當時在10月的時候說才8萬多"},{"start":18638.834,"end":18664.96,"text":"那其實這個新生兒的人數確實是逐年在遞減當中尤其是今年是農年很多人會認為說農年可能新生兒會增加可是我們從上一次這樣質詢你們提供的資料我覺得可能沒有增加反而是減少那這樣子的話其實如果說在我們的這個少子化友善育兒空間的建設這個是硬體建設如果沒有增加的話其實我覺得"},{"start":18666.721,"end":18677.066,"text":"應針對少子化相關項目的預算增加。我也希望針對這部分你們可能還要再加強,或是再跟行政院這邊爭取預算經費。另外一個議題我想請教,衛福部在103年有委託中正大學辦理托育服務"},{"start":18688.112,"end":18715.086,"text":"這個供給模式還有收費機制的研究那這個研究當中這個已經是10年前的一個研究那10年前的這個研究當中有說送托一名兒童的托育費盡量控制在家戶所得的10%到15%才能有機會增加家長生養第二名子女的意願那我想請教已經經過10年那整個社會的變動那我相信部長你也"},{"start":18715.626,"end":18716.046,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":18739.775,"end":18740.035,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18755.095,"end":18776.097,"text":"還有一個是104年的就是說你們是有一個全國托育資源中心訪視輔導計畫那其實這個當中也有建議就是說托育資源中心對家長提供的這個支持協助評價還算是非常的好所以就是說你們一個結論就是協助地方政府財源籌措及挹注有其必要性"},{"start":18776.698,"end":18777.599,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫"},{"start":18797.532,"end":18797.992,"text":"吳佩奕委員"},{"start":18828.884,"end":18829.725,"text":"謝謝主席。我請勞動部次長、國發會副主委。"},{"start":18847.742,"end":18867.35,"text":"好,今天我們是進行前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期成效跟第5期預算的詢問那進入主題之前我想先請教勞動部次長因為有關我們勞動部的基層同仁因為遭到分署長這位謝宜榮分署長的霸凌"},{"start":18868.57,"end":18890.667,"text":"然後請審這一個事情引發社會各界的嘩然那勞動部在後續的處置我想也非常之不妥所以稍早我們部長已經承諾會重啟調查那首先呢在這幾個層面我要提醒次長就是第一個"},{"start":18892.196,"end":18912.381,"text":"到底在過程當中從分署長到我們的蔡孟良署長這個當中調查的延宕有沒有包庇知情室在重啟調查當中務必要去把它理清楚有沒有曾經獲報"},{"start":18914.795,"end":18933.701,"text":"而未處置再來在你們的之前的公告當中這個勞發署的蔡孟良署長說他自請最嚴厲處分叫做送考機會那我請教次長如果分署長送考機會是由誰來評量是不是由署長自請最嚴厲處分叫做送懲戒啊次長"},{"start":18941.817,"end":18956.691,"text":"最嚴厲處分送考記這笑話所以我在這邊再次提醒竟然要重啟調查當中有沒有包庇之情是無必釐清再來你們無必要去把它釐清除責任之後該上懲戒就要送懲戒好不好謝謝委員指教"},{"start":18959.636,"end":18987.669,"text":"好 那再來我要討論的是我們的前瞻先看一下第4期的成效因為省基部有一個報告其實前瞻大部分的執行率是不錯其中像軌道建設甚至超過百分之百很多也在九成以上但是我看到幾項單項的項目的執行率很差所以我必須要提出來想要釐清第一個是勞動部我們有一筆整修職業訓練中心你的執行率是零"},{"start":18989.436,"end":19004.947,"text":"這筆預算雖然不大1400萬請教一下是發生什麼問題是跟委員報告這筆預算是我們配合那個地方的勞工的相關中心的內政補強那是補助新竹市政府那今年3月以後新竹市政府"},{"start":19006.288,"end":19019.204,"text":"該相關標案陸續流標6次,我們協助他在做標預算和工期的一個重新調整,已經重新再做公告,目前進入評選階段,也有兩家的長安來投標,預計11月份會決標。"},{"start":19021.246,"end":19038.164,"text":"好,所以如果待新竹市政府這個發報完成,我們撥補這個質詢就會進行下去?對。好,這我覺得其實反而比較事效。另外我要請教的是國發會,你們有一個這個人才培育促進,資訊率只有17%,連五分之一都不到,請問發生什麼事情?"},{"start":19038.684,"end":19059.881,"text":"是,跟委員報告那這一部分國防會主要是雙語計畫啦那因為本來有規劃是有要做行政法人但現在因為政策上雙語發展中心對,行政法人是那因為這部分的預算我們政策上有在做檢討所以暫緩執行可能因為主要是受到這個影響好,這個因為你們跟審計部的報告齁我要跟你講你們寫的是錯的"},{"start":19063.123,"end":19087.996,"text":"你們說因為還沒有經過立法院的審議但其實你們法案上會期有送這會期沒送所以理由不在這邊所以請你們要務實的來進行檢討因為大部分其他執行成效不錯最後我要討論的是因為我非常的支持國發會做地方創生計畫也在我們前瞻當中現在我們前瞻要繼續做3.0的地方創生對不對對所以明年有沒有變預算"},{"start":19089.896,"end":19093.318,"text":"臺北市臨建多元真案臺北市臨建青年培力公共站臺北市臨建公共公有空間活化臺北市臨建"},{"start":19114.099,"end":19115.5,"text":"主要是他比較沒有來申請"},{"start":19132.839,"end":19154.867,"text":"比較沒有來申請那這個我要請副主委幫我去注意因為我的選區在臺北市中正萬華區我們萬華區是在臺北裡面都會區也非常需要地方創生的一個區域我們地方有很多優秀青年團體他們也曾經去投過國發會青年培力工作站的這個案件那他們告訴我說其實都有需求"},{"start":19155.307,"end":19176.806,"text":"但是有時候地方政府不讓他們提案對民間團體來講他們束手無策所以我希望你們要去來衡量都會區也需要地方創生尤其是在台北市每個區域的發展未必均衡所以請你們去來跟地方政府好好討論一下希望我們地方創生是真的可以落實到我們的社區基層當中好嗎好 謝謝委員我們一會來處理好 謝謝主席來兩位請回好 謝謝吳佩儀委員就請一位請委員"},{"start":19195.547,"end":19201.632,"text":"主席,我前面先請我們的環境部的彭部長,後面再請衛福部的邱部長。"},{"start":19209.505,"end":19232.663,"text":"二位好部長好那首先依據我們的那個氣候變遷因應法第10條本來就要設置專家技術的諮詢小組然後也要召開公聽會訂出5年一期的階段管制目標所以想問一下環境部目前法已經通過20多個月了那有開公聽會嗎"},{"start":19234.184,"end":19251.054,"text":"第三期的話我們還正在確定這個數字尤其是現在巴黎氣候協定要增強這個決心那我們現在考慮這個數字要往上調但是跨級到很多的部會我們還在協調我們有一個目標了但是還沒有大家最後的確認"},{"start":19252.354,"end":19273.572,"text":"這次要看預算 我覺得公務預算跟你的仔細去看你的公務預算跟這次提出來的前瞻我覺得有一點讓我們覺得氣候變遷署已經編列相關的1500多萬要處理法制的規定然後可是前瞻預算又編了1.7億是不是部長可以解釋一下好 我們請我們氣候署署長"},{"start":19275.077,"end":19275.157,"text":"主席"},{"start":19291.286,"end":19292.267,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":19320.026,"end":19347.785,"text":"看到你們在預算裡邊滿開心的是說你們有增加所謂的數位建設值得欣慰可是也讓人家擔心看右邊的新聞桃園這週發生了一場嚴重大火在桃園區春日路上不織布工廠一早就發生大火導致不僅是公安的問題那同時也混合空污還有水污染以上這些污染問題都是環境部的管轄範圍所以首先問環境部"},{"start":19348.806,"end":19355.08,"text":"你的這筆預算要怎麼來運用,而且未來要處理像這種複合性的災難,如何提醒民眾?"},{"start":19356.011,"end":19383.2,"text":"包括委員這個是屬於這種所謂運用物聯網然後資料的這個整合的工作那當然啦我們現在這個其實你委員說的都是問題就是包含了空污、救災、廢水其實未來就要把它整合在一起我們會強調這種資訊化的IoT的治理變成一個更決策化的一個系統來推動這個事情所以在這個數位建設上關於噪音取締是不是有解還有是否會增加地方移動型的那個噪音檢測的設備"},{"start":19384.9,"end":19398.627,"text":"對,也報告委員這個其實我們就希望能夠加強這個因為地方很多的反應還是這種所謂的改裝的車輛非常吵那通常我們的經驗是加裝這個檢測、偵測是有效的減少這個噪音好,那謝謝部長接下來我們請衛福部"},{"start":19407.97,"end":19434.092,"text":"委員好部長我看到那個一樣的掃紙畫這一塊的確你們寫的執行率達83%可是整個竣工大概只有達到55%113年就有新聞在講說你們的部件工程一直在延拖執行率非常的差當時務衛衛部部也有講說不住地方政府辦理的室內工程案件可是由於很多都是我們的閒置的老舊建築或"},{"start":19435.213,"end":19437.254,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":19457.023,"end":19474.441,"text":"有幾個在人家國發會就已經有提出來整個公共建設公共托育的量能不足品質不佳因為第1個部件目標沒有打標那第2個你的社福中心或者兒少安職機構設置未能滿足限制所以"},{"start":19474.821,"end":19476.602,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":19492.506,"end":19493.247,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":19513.96,"end":19514.82,"text":"請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":19532.742,"end":19561.501,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想委員提的都是我們在努力的目標那在達到達標這個部分其實我們結案也有大概達到最近的努力也達到76%那基本上我們的經濟措施當然就是我們一直開會推動匯報然後實地訪查然後我們請工程會和專家來指導希望該有的達標一定要達標那這個部分委員所垂行的當然就是硬體還有軟體的這個部分"},{"start":19561.721,"end":19562.601,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":19593.285,"end":19601.449,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請文化部、農業部還有經濟部文化部李部長、農業部、農業部胡次長、經濟部何次長李部長文化部李部長委員好"},{"start":19621.581,"end":19636.187,"text":"部長好我想這個歷史建物的這個活化跟保存其實對我們來講還蠻重要的那我知道其實我們在推動這個國家文化記憶庫計畫那最重要的就是在保存跟推廣"},{"start":19636.887,"end":19640.088,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案゚〉"},{"start":19662.757,"end":19690.814,"text":"更進一步的就是把這個地方的文化的發展也讓這個全民來一起參與啦那我想呢透過台灣文化的一個路徑的推廣計畫還有歷史的這個文化資產的一個維護發展計畫還有再造歷史現場的一個計畫那這個都是我們文化部在推動的對嗎?對,這些東西對我們文化部來講是非常重要的一個那個計畫好,那目前的成效如何?可不可以簡短回答?"},{"start":19691.874,"end":19692.034,"text":"主席"},{"start":19709.092,"end":19711.175,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":19727.833,"end":19729.594,"text":"何美的礦坑,地方文化局2020年12月已經"},{"start":19744.244,"end":19744.665,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":19761.027,"end":19764.308,"text":"農業部這邊是有分計畫嗎?具體?我們有派員巡查因為在礦坑裡面有岩石的掉落所以目前我們必須要有經費才有辦法來執行"},{"start":19778.375,"end":19805.354,"text":"要有經費那我可以問一下這個經濟部這邊是不是可以來做協助的調查跟研究還有他要怎麼樣來做一個復旧的部分跟委員報告因為這個礦坑已經封坑了所以封坑之後我們經濟部就沒有再編列相關的這個預算因為所以其實他已經封坑也就是說他沉睡當中我們是換不行了是這個意思嗎對就是說他管理器官已經是由其他部位還有地方政府在主管"},{"start":19805.794,"end":19806.074,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":19824.906,"end":19839.616,"text":"對所以沒有後續可以被經營的方向嗎?完全沒有嗎?是對好那最後其實我想請教一下我們剛剛其實有特別提到這些所謂的歷史的現場的一個計畫的執行的現況跟落實的一些挑戰"},{"start":19840.777,"end":19841.758,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":19869.233,"end":19892.257,"text":"確定這邊說已經封坑了也不再重啟那其實這個計畫其實就是停了就是目前為止是停止的好那截至112年底呢其實審計處這個地方他有說到96處的歷史文化的場域需要修復但是目前仍有5個地方是沒有營運的那這個部分我想可能最主要的原因跟招商"},{"start":19892.757,"end":19897.3,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":19912.546,"end":19939.375,"text":"我來回答委員,其實剛剛講說有五處,其實有三處已經開始活化,而且開始營運,只剩下兩個地方,就是大基隆歷史現場,漁會、政兵跟汐丘,這個是因為委員說的沒有錯,因為我們要辦理這個東西是要跟地方政府一起,招商也好,還有營運方式,目前已經朝著招商跟營運方向去做。所以是公司協力來說合作?"},{"start":19940.075,"end":19940.355,"text":"陳秀寶委員"},{"start":19968.377,"end":19986.457,"text":"謝主席 請國發會詹副主委好 詹副主委委員好"},{"start":19986.96,"end":19992.503,"text":"副主委好我們前瞻基礎建設計畫執行到現在是第4期總經費是7697億元只是到今天到第3季從112年到今年的113年的9月我們經費達成率是76.89%"},{"start":20004.85,"end":20012.141,"text":"那國發會議之前說預估在年底可以達成96%的目標從10月到12月兩個月要執行20%的預算1470億元真的可以做到嗎?"},{"start":20019.156,"end":20041.831,"text":"是,應該沒有問題。我想跟委員報告,您說的是經費達成率是用已經執行的經費除以全年的預算數。但是如果我們看我們的分配數,因為有些計畫會前面比較直行,比較晚。副主委這邊就說你們覺得是沒有問題的。那我再強請教,另外你達成了96%的這個目標之外呢,有4%,大概有308億元,這個是哪些計畫會沒有辦法達成?"},{"start":20045.824,"end":20063.275,"text":"因為還沒到年底,我們可能沒辦法直接跟委員報告不過從目前已經執行的幾個建設來看,可能在有關人才或是...所以你是以現在執行的狀況去推估的就對了目前比較低一點的大概是...我們前瞻基礎建設的綠能建設進行公正轉型的關鍵戰略推動計畫其成是從112年到113年底,總預算數是1.98億元"},{"start":20071.601,"end":20091.855,"text":"但是當今年的10月底累計執行數只有0.95億元累計的執行率是48.09%而113年的預算數1.65億元當10月底執行數也只有0.63億元執行率只有37.89%請問副主委是什麼原因落後我們到年底之前有沒有辦法如期的來完成進度"},{"start":20092.515,"end":20109.426,"text":"是是委員的確這個目前看起來不理想不過因為有些是跨年度的這些工作也是跨年度的那我們會在年底這個加速來推動那你們有沒有定一個目標到年底我們要有多少資金率我們當然希望整體我們的資金率能夠達到9成好"},{"start":20110.663,"end":20133.77,"text":"那大家一起加油在我們國發會的網站上面我們這個執行成果上面有寫著完善公正轉型推動機制是指辦理業務研討會座談會一個場次那我們其他的擴大公民參與及加強社會溝通後持公正轉型政策的這個實證基礎以及增進社會大眾對近年轉型的認知這些我們都沒有辦理"},{"start":20134.85,"end":20154.22,"text":"我們本來我們的目標是要召開轉型委員會的會議至少兩次而且要公布我們相關的轉型展望報告、辦理公聽會、座談會還有參採建議書至少還有11項等等這一些相關的我們都沒有做為什麼我們會只有召開公正轉型委員會議"},{"start":20155.16,"end":20169.841,"text":"沒有沒有其實沒有其實剛剛委員提到的這些工作其實我們都在推動那也許是在推動中所以還沒有完成所以沒有放在我們的成果上嗎對應該說一直在進行啦因為這很多都是經常性的我們會辦理的工作"},{"start":20170.402,"end":20196.483,"text":"那是不是我們會後也會提供一些我們做的事情給委員參考好那你這個一定要提供給我因為其實你們的這個目標跟你們的成果是有很大幅的差距那所以也讓我們關心我們所有的進展所有的計畫推動的民眾會去擔憂你們這樣理想跟現實的差距這麼大那對於這些反映出來的這些執行面是不是對影響我們未來2050年淨寧碳排這個目標有沒有影響"},{"start":20198.005,"end":20218.364,"text":"我想這個今年2050的目標其實這個非常大有很多部會大家一直在推動公認轉型只是其中一個策略而已啦那其他的部分我想我們進一步環境部大家一起在積極領導這樣子啦副主委你會後把你們相關的最新的一些數據跟成果請你一份給我辦公室那這邊我要請教在113年我們與NGO"},{"start":20221.867,"end":20245.605,"text":"共同推動淨寧公正轉型相關活動委託辦理案8月5日,絕標A項目與B項目的八家廠商已經撥付第一期款項B項目兩家在10月28日完成議價為何共同推動淨寧公正轉型活動直到下半年甚至到10月底才能完成發包?"},{"start":20248.861,"end":20269.127,"text":"這個的確我們會要見討一下,也許我們行政作業程序上可能是稍微這個慢了一點所以發報之後你們這樣子的執行,你們這樣子的本身的這樣業務,你們有辦法把後面的,因為已經到年底了是是是,我們一定會努力啦,不過這個就像剛剛跟委員報告,有些計畫是比較跨年度的"},{"start":20270.705,"end":20271.686,"text":"陳秀寶委員"},{"start":20299.612,"end":20299.912,"text":"陳培宇委員"},{"start":20327.557,"end":20353.244,"text":"委員好部長午安那在今天的這個前瞻的部分我想要談一下學校運動設施跟社區化的部分這部分目前我們要給予教育部高度的肯定尤其部長您在7月份的時候跟全國各縣市教育局討論相關議題的時候部長你也做了宣示全民運動推展第一步絕對是要讓校園成為社區運動新據點這是很棒的理想但是現實真的很骨感"},{"start":20353.724,"end":20371.227,"text":"鼓感的地方來自哪裡呢?就是常常很多時候學校不願意借校園他們認為有管理的問題有收費的問題還有如果不合理的收費可能也會變成這些運動社區化推動的一個很大的門檻那這邊我其實要提醒部長其實在教育部裡面呢"},{"start":20372.088,"end":20398.711,"text":"教育部自己有一個教育部主管學校運動設施設置開放管理跟補助辦法部長這個辦法最後一次修正是在107年也就是到目前為止已經6年了其實相關的辦法法規執行的狀況跟適當的修正一直都沒有進度這個部分配合前瞻計畫我要在這邊友善提醒部長我認為這件事情在面對未來運動部的升格教育部還是要有所承擔這個部分好嗎?謝謝部長"},{"start":20400.293,"end":20404.988,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒,我們來努力部長你知道今天是什麼日子嗎?"},{"start":20407.851,"end":20430.884,"text":"絕對不是我們在內政委員會選罷法的事情今天是非常重要的國際兒童人權日我們現場非常多大人應該99%人都不知道今天叫做國際兒童人權日部長我今天放的這個照片呢是最近這兩天有一個國小棒球隊教練要求小朋友在馬路上鴨子走路你覺得這是體罰還是訓練"},{"start":20433.167,"end":20446.592,"text":"這不僅有交通問題﹖我想它是一個﹖真的是一個比較不宜的一個﹖比較不宜而已嗎?部長﹖不能﹖我簡單的講說不能用信念﹖可是在你們教育部的相關法規裡面體罰學鴨子走路叫做體罰欸"},{"start":20448.132,"end":20454.518,"text":"不可以把體罰美化成訓練但是部長未來在體育署升格成運動部之後我們看到目前的規劃是你們可能在打算要把體育班交給運動部"},{"start":20472.054,"end":20498.607,"text":"但是我要問如果又出現像現場這個狀況學鴨子走路會不會又變成未來教學現場的法外治權只要出現不當管教會不會到時候我們的運動部又用了舊的思維跟現場的教練口徑一致把這個認為是訓練部長你怎麼看後續分工的問題我想在這個體育班事實上他的教學還是在學校裡面包括體育老師業務的分工確定會在教育部嗎部長"},{"start":20499.967,"end":20500.408,"text":"主管業務會教育部"},{"start":20517.321,"end":20544.625,"text":"好 那我們等一下來往下看那部長我在上個月我們分別辦了兒少運動政策跟適應體育我們其實也很擔心因為我們看到運動部目前的規劃有一個適應體育司那我就很好奇學校裡面因為推動了普特融合那普特融合這個問題就會發生適應體育的事情到底是歸運動部適應體育司運動司還是歸教育部國教署"},{"start":20545.376,"end":20566.478,"text":"跟委員報告基本上只要是體育教學這一個部分都是教育部教學這一個部分都是教育部那我們往下看會發生什麼問題呢如果都是歸教育部很多校園當中假運動訓練機敏的事情我們希望教育部未來要承擔起更重的責任那前兩天也有公務員投書公務員說"},{"start":20568.46,"end":20592.361,"text":"國教署跟體育署的命運大不同這裡面談到人員的問題、經費的問題、資源的問題也就是說我們來看下一頁目前規劃運動部300人、全民署100人可是未來在我們教育部本部學校體育你要怎麼編制在那個公務員投書裡面就提到如果最後學校的體育變成只有一個少少的名額10個人"},{"start":20594.346,"end":20615.796,"text":"一個課,因為現在規劃成一個課,時隔要負責全臺灣3000多所中小學的學校體育業務,又回到以前那個年代,體育委會的年代,這樣會有問題也不長。跟我們報告,我們事實上不是一個課,我們是用一個組。沒有,我說學校的部分喔,在教育部的國教署。那一個組預計會有多少人?"},{"start":20619.724,"end":20645.715,"text":"法務委員,現在一個用組的方式來運作它的時候,有組長、副組長、專門委員,這樣整個加起來有20多個。20多,來,署長,你當署長很久了,你覺得這個公務員投書我相信你一定有看見,你的幕僚一定有幫你收集,他在講的現象就是學校體育現場的事情如果這麼多,而且加上部長剛承諾適應體育也會在教育部,體育班也會在"},{"start":20646.235,"end":20648.357,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":20673.817,"end":20698.309,"text":"工作量超大,但是人員超少所以我這邊積極的建議神聖的評估體育班業務跟適應體育應該要保留在教育部希望不要造成第一線分工的困難再來運動部成立的過程當中相關的業務只要歸到國教署的都請國教署積極的規劃相對應的人力資源配置以上我們希望在兩週內可以收到相關報告,可以嗎?好,謝謝,請相關單位回覆委員兩週內喔謝謝署長,謝謝部長,謝謝主席,謝謝好,謝謝"},{"start":20704.926,"end":20705.907,"text":"接下來我們請李博義委員上台詢談"},{"start":20730.547,"end":20730.807,"text":"交通部長"},{"start":20745.87,"end":20769.239,"text":"市長謝謝我看到我們第4期以及第5期的前瞻建設裡面有關於高雄的軌道建設那我想在這邊就教一下次長你會不會擔心高雄的捷運黃線未來的施作的金額在這一次送到部裡面金額大幅提升將近一千億"},{"start":20770.399,"end":20779.154,"text":"那未來有沒有可能行政院這邊再以特別預算的方式再來編列因為目前高雄市面臨的狀況"},{"start":20781.124,"end":20805.941,"text":"五座晶圓廠五座台積電二奈米整個台積電周邊包含高雄整個交通的狀況我們不希望未來成為新竹所以目前大眾運輸我們正積極的展開那我現在很擔心吼包含特別預算還沒有確定之外財劃法如果又把這些錢全又分到地方"},{"start":20806.857,"end":20823.064,"text":"那整個中央跟地方軌道建設的這些比例怎麼樣試算這個是未來非常今年度明年度都必須要去注意的事情所以這邊我想請教次長先第一個對於高雄捷運黃線從1428億必須要增加到2348億而且經過我們交通部的這個核定喔"},{"start":20830.788,"end":20860.07,"text":"那接下來高雄我在爭取的還有捷運紫縣目前規劃出來是1884億那這個預算我們到底要怎麼編列來市長你有什麼看法我說明一下齁剛剛講的那個黃縣市已經交通部已經審議過了那有一些意見就已經通過了齁那他們有一些意見請他們來修正那好像11月5號的時候他們有一些修正意見過來但是我們覺得還有一些在說明的"},{"start":20860.35,"end":20861.931,"text":"這部分預算目前看起來是沒有問題的。"},{"start":20876.721,"end":20901.97,"text":"那未來還有這個900多億﹐增加的900多億﹐對 這個我們會剛剛講就如果沒有錢在預算沒有的話我們會編列在這個公務預算裡面好 謝謝次長我知道你也很支持那也很感謝你對於高鐵左營站未來從月台直下高雄捷運的這一個方案次長這一個方案大概需要多少經費我們的經費有沒有辦法來支付"},{"start":20903.354,"end":20907.868,"text":"現在我這個跟委員報告我上一次我知道我也對這個非常的關心"},{"start":20909.434,"end":20932.613,"text":"那這部分上一次在9月10月的時候我到高雄去找台灣高鐵公司談了一下那現在目前我希望是我希望他應該開始先做規劃還有可行性的部分整個一起做可行性跟規劃一起做對一起做我是希望他一個階段他本來分兩個階段6加7我希望一個階段在這邊感謝次長10個10個月來完成"},{"start":20934.875,"end":20935.295,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":20963.943,"end":20985.021,"text":"這個我想這個一定會通非常感謝非常感謝次長接下來就是對捷運子縣我們目前可行性評估高雄市政府已經送到交通部這邊來做一些核定那未來的包括相關的這些作業我們也希望可以加速的來進行也希望可以用特別預算的方式來讓高雄市整個"},{"start":20987.743,"end":21005.504,"text":"因應整個高雄市的城市轉型,未來的AI、未來的半導體產業大舉進入高雄市,我們希望可以大幅的增進這些軌道建設,也希望交通部快速來做一些核定跟支持,謝謝。是,沒問題,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝博弈委員,謝謝。接著我們請張志倫委員。"},{"start":21022.062,"end":21035.008,"text":"主席、各位官員、各位委員,大家午安。先有請經濟部次長何次長何次長也來我們等一下到楊瓊英委員質詢結束的時候,我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":21037.881,"end":21052.877,"text":"市長謝謝你今天特別出席那我要請教市長就是有關於這一次我們前瞻5期的計畫裡面綠能建設也是在我們的這個前瞻基礎建設5期編列了31億5700萬"},{"start":21057.262,"end":21081.73,"text":"主要我想是我們國家能源政策未來主要的目的就是希望進行排碳的部分可是次長像我昨天也有請教我們的經濟部郭部長有關於現在週刊報導所指稱的綠能蟑螂橫行的一個部分我們國外的合法優質的廠商他在報導中哭訴說他是這個"},{"start":21086.45,"end":21088.252,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ​​​114年度（"},{"start":21102.364,"end":21102.804,"text":"請教次長您的態度"},{"start":21122.422,"end":21144.15,"text":"根文報告,這個發展綠能是國家的政策那當然就是目前有一些這個亂流那現在行政院針對這個打擊這些這個違法的這些部分我們也成立了一個跨部位的一個平台在法務部、農業部、內政部跟經濟部我們針對一些大型的案場"},{"start":21144.91,"end":21171.058,"text":"他如果有一些這種跟地方人士的這個部分有一些這種不當的這些違法的這些行為的話我們會做一些查處那另外大概市長你們有沒有跟行政院大家討論大概多久時間你們這個臨時的小組他的你的目標是什麼已經成立了這個小組已經成立了這小組的目的大概會花多久時間去完成你們的任務"},{"start":21171.67,"end":21200.358,"text":"當然我們現在已經成立這個小組了而且成立一個群組那我們會針對一些比較大型的案場那會去關注一下他們的這個進度好沒關係那就拜託次長的部分你們要預期的有預算然後目標、時間那會後再希望說給本席有一個大概你們的大概的目標跟整個時程那次長因為昨天我要質詢部長的時間不夠所以我這邊要跟你公開檢舉一件事情"},{"start":21201.098,"end":21219.824,"text":"一據審計部的內部資料調查,國產署為了配合國家再生能源的落實以及農地農用的原則現在國土署把我們國家的土地出租給綠能業者可是綠能業者居然去跟台電簽約"},{"start":21221.485,"end":21235.053,"text":"我再簡單講,就是國產署出租國有土地給這些民間業者,結果民間業者居然跟台電簽約時間大概是6到10年可是這些綠電業者居然跟台電簽約的時間長達20年"},{"start":21243.138,"end":21267.777,"text":"所以這裡面有明顯的這個時間不相當我土地出租才5到6到10年可是綠能這些業者跟台電簽約卻是簽約到20年了這樣子我覺得讓人民的觀感非常不好這樣子未來會不會人民租房子也跟房東租兩年結果外面當二房東出租20年這樣子未來有幾個狀況可能會發生第一個未來如果這個"},{"start":21269.218,"end":21271.32,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":21290.739,"end":21313.294,"text":"到底是哪些業者有這些通天的本領來去來去承租這些土地明明租土地的只有6年到10年可是他們居然跟台電簽了20年的約我還要再繼續跟這個次長說明現在這個國產署根本不知道有多少土地這些這個民間的業者跟台電有簽約的變成一個很複雜的三角關係"},{"start":21314.881,"end":21338.902,"text":"所以我想如果這個問題沒辦法去解決實在是會造成台灣未來整個綠能產業有一個非常大的混亂是不是請次長解釋一下跟我們報告一下就是說他跟國土署這邊有簽6到10年的合約那或許到合約這個租期結束之後他或許還可以再跟這個國土署這邊再申請續約他怎麼續約如果國產署不跟他續約怎麼辦"},{"start":21342.721,"end":21359.667,"text":"對,那所以就是說,可能到時候會就整個土地使用的狀況,那會來做一個檢討。好,我是不是因為時間的關係,我是不是拜託次長,你是不是可以把這些這麼厲害的業者,他居然有這個能力,土地只簽6到10年的約,可是他有信心,"},{"start":21360.487,"end":21383.757,"text":"的綠電合約可以簽20年,這些業者到底是有哪些通天的本領來去做這樣的事情?可不可以做統計資料提供給立法院?那未來也請這個經濟部就這樣子有問題的土地只有簽6年到10年約可是跟綠能業者卻跟我們的這個台電簽約竟然20年,這樣時間上的落差可不可以做一個檢討報告?好,是"},{"start":21385.658,"end":21386.579,"text":"李憲秀委員"},{"start":21405.996,"end":21406.957,"text":"教育部部長、主席長、邱太元、邱部長、環境部彭部長"},{"start":21438.808,"end":21447.353,"text":"前瞻實行到現在,你覺得現在對於校舍的改進,因為校舍的安全預算其實永遠也不嫌多,包括地震瞬間"},{"start":21449.13,"end":21451.613,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ．"},{"start":21465.461,"end":21465.621,"text":"前瞻當時8800億的時候"},{"start":21493.052,"end":21493.172,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":21502.486,"end":21525.054,"text":"委員跟委員報告,所有在前段時間...滿不滿意?滿不滿意?滿不滿意?進度滿不滿意?安全上有疑慮的也都少過一波,全部都做了改建...校舍的改建?你與其土土抹抹,還抱不如其實正本清源的方法就是校舍的改建?你滿不滿意?你回答我兩個字嘛!"},{"start":21527.035,"end":21540.109,"text":"你看你要編得到到110你現在有350億要做做銷售的概念你要到110年才開始做你如果當時第一年就有想法就早就可以開始做我跟你講幾個數字"},{"start":21541.65,"end":21542.15,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":21562.577,"end":21565.938,"text":"衛生教育品質這是我們要做的,我想我們跟我原的想法是一樣。"},{"start":21593.818,"end":21594.599,"text":"一百一十三年"},{"start":21604.059,"end":21627.488,"text":"好 我給你答案 因為我時間不夠一個是112年是113年是200億112年是240億好 這個部分我請邱部長回應我有沒有做醫療院所的健保的點值的補充有沒有維持健保的運作有沒有做點值的補充 有沒有報告委員 去年112年是有補大概將近179億那今年還沒有有就對 今年還沒有好 那我就要請問主計長"},{"start":21631.943,"end":21632.103,"text":"主席"},{"start":21647.42,"end":21653.084,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":21671.674,"end":21672.094,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21690.823,"end":21710.036,"text":"因為我接下來要關心醫療院所的環境問題。前瞻彭部長,前瞻現在撥了2億元用在推動廢污水資源化的管理也好,或者2.73億去改善水資源或污染的設施,用4.42億元來用於減碳跟氣候的治理。"},{"start":21714.699,"end":21729.81,"text":"我們現在檢探的部分分三個部分一個是直接排放、間接排放還有其他的間接排放那這個部分我請問環境部在這一塊我們協助的衛福部什麼東西?"},{"start":21731.215,"end":21752.785,"text":"是,跟委員報告,我們現在跟環信部,第一個就是先幫醫院這邊做深度檢探你之前幫他開了一場會議叫做領航營對不對?是那怎麼幫醫院檢探?沒有做嘛對不對?你們現在部長沒來喔?現在正在做這個深度檢探會等一下你暫停一下,我今天沒有部長喔?有三點區開另外一個會"},{"start":21754.909,"end":21780.683,"text":"有跟你講嗎?明天還會再來嗎?今天如果講不完,明天就會來。我明天有第二輪嗎?沒有?你繼續問,你繼續問,現在繼續問。那您是副部長是不是?我是次長,政府次長。那你可以回應我齁?是。不然我在這邊罵蔣老半天沒有用啊,招惹有意義嗎?沒有,你繼續問齁,我要問清楚。"},{"start":21781.397,"end":21805.237,"text":"好,你現在環境部要求你公告一個修正排放流水的標準但是我們知道要配合你這個排放流水事實上在醫療院所他為什麼要放他放流水的時候他有放一個有效餘濾他加了濾在裡頭他加了濾的目的就是為了要滅菌,對不對?周部長"},{"start":21806.709,"end":21806.749,"text":"主席"},{"start":21826.914,"end":21841.701,"text":"所以他現在醫院醫療院所最大的問題是他沒有足夠的空間沒有足夠的設備他已經穿著西裝沒有辦法去改變太多其他的設施所以我請問你前瞻的預算在這一塊到底能怎麼協助幫助他你要怎麼幫他你有辦法回復我嗎"},{"start":21849.552,"end":21871.399,"text":"跟委員報告你不是幫他開一場臨航座談會然後其他什麼都不管然後叫他符合你的標準他沒有辦法耶醫院醫療院所就這麼小不要看我們其他幾個醫院他怎麼樣去做這些設備符合你的標準他流水設備他沒辦法改地下水管沒辦法改他就是沒有辦法嘛那要符合你的標準要不然就被你開罰那要不然後面就是製造更多的病菌出來啊這個怎麼解決"},{"start":21878.228,"end":21905.869,"text":"邱部長你要幫他背嗎?你不要幫他背啊!你不幫他背我後面就找你喔!根本報告齁放流水標準把那個餘率設定為兩個ppm以下是不希望說放流水裡面的餘率太多擺到水裡面會影響水平的設定你這個我都知道意思嘛!是!那你沒有去想說醫療院所現在持續的狀況是怎麼樣你怎麼樣去輔導他嘛!所以我這樣啦具體的結論啦"},{"start":21907.591,"end":21933.892,"text":"因為你們有這些預算嘛你有水資源改善跟污水設施的改善計畫嘛你跟衛福部好好研究一下這筆經費怎麼樣協助他做改善好 謝謝看要撥多少經費我下一個會議會長謝謝委員對這個議題的關心我們會一起跟環境部一起來努力那結論要告訴我好 是不然我就再回來了好 一定好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":21935.656,"end":21952.792,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員。接著請黃建豪委員。好,謝謝主席。我們先請財政部國庫署跟公務署署長。"},{"start":21967.526,"end":21982.914,"text":"好,兩位署長好,我想身為今天部長沒有過來我想針對我們這個國產跟進口酒類的這個討論我想這個WTO加入之後這幾年下來我們同時廢止了菸酒的專賣制度那我想台灣的這個酒類的進口也是逐年上升的"},{"start":21983.874,"end":22008.972,"text":"近10年的比較,10年前國產酒類佔比高達67%,當時進口酒類只有33%。10年後的今天,也是去年左右時間,我想國產酒類首次佔比降到50%以下,所以這個衝擊對於國內業者來講是相對比較大一點。另外,其中影響最大的當然是我們自己國產署所管的,國庫署所管的臺灣煙酒公司。"},{"start":22011.774,"end":22034.91,"text":"臺灣的公司在海外的銷售當然因為國內的佔比下降你們去找海外市場這個情有可原也合理但是海外銷售的成績我看在各國也是逐年的下滑那原因在哪裡呢我想原因第一個我們直接進入主題這個可能是關稅的問題我們在啤酒的製造裡面大概有兩個主要的原料一個是啤酒化一個是未烘焙麥芽"},{"start":22036.22,"end":22038.023,"text":"國庫署署長,國內有沒有啤酒花跟未紅白麥芽的產業需要保護?我們的啤酒花的部分應該就是我們的台灣啤酒"},{"start":22049.775,"end":22049.955,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22069.435,"end":22076.941,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":22097.858,"end":22098.098,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":22112.506,"end":22135.797,"text":"一直在標榜說要來行銷台灣啤酒但結果因為它才是你們股庫所管的結果呢你的生產成本就比其他國家還高耶包含日本、香港、新加坡、馬來西亞、泰國、緬甸甚至菲律賓、印尼它的成本都比你低所以你這個你們海外行銷的時候你們到海外去你們當然你們的行銷的價格就很難去贏過別人了是不是這樣我們課稅的目的是什麼我們課稅為何會賣牙跟啤酒花的目的是什麼"},{"start":22145.181,"end":22151.397,"text":"這有關這個目前的這個稅率目前都是加入WTO的時候的約束的一個稅率"},{"start":22152.492,"end":22177.348,"text":"所以加入WTO的時候有約束說我國要課未烘焙麥芽跟啤酒花的稅率達到7.5%是不是?是,當時這些稅率都是因為加入WTO跟各國談判來的。我們要課這麼高的稅喔?就是別我們的釀酒商以台啤為例,台灣驗酒公司為例,我今天要進口未烘焙麥芽跟啤酒花,進到台灣這邊要來釀酒,然後我要先課7.5%的稅是這樣嗎?"},{"start":22179.526,"end":22198.09,"text":"是,如果是進口這些啤酒花的話那你只能進口啊,因為台灣沒有啊是那不就表示說我們沒有辦法去扶持我們自己台灣的啤酒產業了嗎對,但目前的稅率是這樣,如果業者或者是主管…沒有,業者其實就是你們啦只是業者當台灣業務公司嘛,那就是你們啦其實對不對是"},{"start":22202.523,"end":22205.304,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":22229.262,"end":22235.466,"text":"這個是芭比爾這個是百味啤酒我想問一下兩位署長知道這些是哪個國家的品牌嗎知道"},{"start":22239.196,"end":22240.316,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ​​​114年度),"},{"start":22264.964,"end":22291.861,"text":"佔了百分之五十以上了所以他大量的賣為什麼因為他們有相對的政策補貼嘛所以打了我們自己台灣啤酒節節敗退所以今天這個問題提出來是需要說競爭是要公平競爭之前在執事長委員會講過嘛那其實這個問題是這樣今天中國大陸他大量去補貼他們的政策那加上啤酒進口免關稅所以他們當然可以低價的進到台灣的市場裡面加上這是美國品牌大家不會有什麼特別的質疑其實是美國品牌所以大家就進來了"},{"start":22292.842,"end":22295.865,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":22313.545,"end":22338.725,"text":"國辦的廠商也是我們整個我國該產業總生產量25%以上唯一的公司就只有臺灣菸酒公司而已也就是財政部所屬的國營事業所以你們什麼時候會鼓勵或是你們甚至是要求臺灣菸酒公司提出相關的申訴這個目前臺灣菸酒公司正在評估因為這個有關於申請反請銷的話是要由業者來提出那他有在評估"},{"start":22339.912,"end":22342.193,"text":"財政部提出財政部提出財政部提出財政部提出財政部提出財政部提出"},{"start":22369.625,"end":22384.414,"text":"目前臺灣煙酒公司是司法公司所以可以由臺灣煙酒公司來代表提出所以你們會不會鼓勵我們臺灣煙酒公司去提出這個東西他是至於作為你們所屬的國營事業的這個狀況下面還是要看他們自己要不要"},{"start":22385.612,"end":22385.812,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22403.186,"end":22424.201,"text":"是,我覺得我們這邊臺酒公司應該會評估市場的整個環境然後再加上去了解對方有沒有一些不當的補貼這些才能作為他未來申請反傾銷的一些依據那這樣的東西他去研議完了以後再做出申請案,謝謝好,組長謝謝,主席謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員接著我們請徐富奎委員"},{"start":22438.272,"end":22444.6,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請經濟部何政次、水利署賴署長,還有農業部胡政次。"},{"start":22454.404,"end":22483.584,"text":"委員好兩位政事還有署長好午安那我想屏東縣這個水資源很豐富那我們屏東縣有一個大潮州軟工湖那第一期的建設完成之後每一年預注了五千萬噸的水到我們地下的含水層但是第二期的這個案子一直評估到現在那本席覺得很可惜因為這個第二期的工程完成之後可以預注每年一萬五千噸的一個地下水的一個補助量"},{"start":22484.444,"end":22497.871,"text":"這對我們南台灣的水資源是一個很重要的一個水建設那我請教一下我們經濟部這邊目前這個案子的進度跟我們報告這個案子我們已經報行政院那目前正在國發會在審理當中"},{"start":22500.826,"end":22527.248,"text":"市長我想這個案子當然第二期的經費有包含一些相關的一些土地徵收還有一些建設但是這個案子是我們值得投資的一個重要的一個水資源的一個建設案子我想賴署長也非常的清楚那這部分主計長這邊是不是願意來支持我們這樣的一個案子因為這個經費要高達27億元那可能經濟部跟國會這邊有一些顧慮那站在主計處的這邊願不願意來支持這樣的一個案子"},{"start":22534.229,"end":22556.535,"text":"我們是看計畫審議的情形,我們會來協助。好,這要麻煩主席長給我們屏東支持。那另外賴署長我想請教一下,就是上次風吹之後,我們要求整個屏東沿海地區的一個海岸韌性的一個檢視,包含我們的海堤、我們的離岸堤,那這部分我們目前開始啟動了嗎?"},{"start":22557.943,"end":22583.429,"text":"是在啟動的而且我們部長隨同院長去到現場的時候都已經有指示要提早完工包括下核海體的本身還有包括外面的離岸體包括外面的離岸體我們可能都會來重新來做一個檢討那現在我們預定在年底大概會發包年底喔對所以不過因為我們現在原本舊的離岸體已經有下限的狀況"},{"start":22584.657,"end":22598.557,"text":"還有一些地方是必須新建立案體的部分所以本期這邊是希望我們需要排個時間我們真的應該整個屏東沿岸要整個再巡檢過一次因為屏東是一級海岸的防護地區我們會審慎的來因應這個情勢"},{"start":22602.001,"end":22626.52,"text":"那另外一個很重要的議題也是本席一直在委員會有質詢就是我們屏東縣有一些抽水站的設備非常的老舊那那個能夠抽水的一個容量也有限那沒辦法應付這個極端氣候的一個影響那這部分是不是也請這個水利署這邊這個目前提出大概有5個站2.5億的經費是不是請次長跟署長這邊也要支持一下"},{"start":22627.728,"end":22641.516,"text":"因為我們這個已經請屏東縣政府做妥善的評估那至於說前瞻之後的下一期的協助地方政府的建設計畫現在國會會在審議但預算通過的話我們會跟屏東縣政府一起來努力"},{"start":22643.055,"end":22660.282,"text":"那接著我想農業部的胡政司這次我昨天有去我們恆春、後壁湖漁港還有山海漁港看了一下那因為我們現在整個這次風災我們一些漁港的設施受到嚴重的損壞然後包含有一些的消波塊也都有受損"},{"start":22661.162,"end":22676.378,"text":"這部分因為會有牽扯到所謂漁業署跟水利署的一個權責問題那包含我們一些的漁港的部分周邊都會牽扯到因為我們兩個有跨部會的一個問題所以有時候一些提案的部分沒辦法做處理那這邊"},{"start":22678.035,"end":22694.176,"text":"布林恩是否願意來做一個整合?我們趕快把這些漁港的建設還有消波塊的部分能夠來做一個整合、來做一個處理。是,報告委員。在我們這個職責之內的話,我們非常樂意來進行。按照災後的這些相關的手續,我們會來協助。"},{"start":22695.117,"end":22718.483,"text":"這次尤其我們屏東有很多的漁港建設這個已經有安全上的考量這次是不是我們優先請漁業署這邊來做處理?可以可以然後還有這次我們預托颱風有造成一些紅豆的一些災損那這個農業署的副署長也有去看過了那是不是我們可以趕快一併納入來這個讓農民能夠做最後一個農損的一個申請受理?"},{"start":22718.843,"end":22740.255,"text":"好,沒有問題,我們會請南區分署跟縣政府這邊一起來。這個教會速度啦。對對對,對不起,這一項已經公告,因為我們副署長在這個地方,已經公告下去了,謝謝委員的關心。好,這次最後一個就是針對我們草州有一個冷面包裝廠,那我想這個是我們做一個農產品的一個這個國際行銷的一個很重要的一個板塊。"},{"start":22741.015,"end":22741.675,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":22764.966,"end":22782.53,"text":"配合屏東縣政府,我們一起共同把屏東的農產能夠做一個最好的行銷。是,謝謝,沒有問題。好,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝許副區委員。我們剛剛先不是到楊瓊英委員的時候休息,但是因為他跟劉建國委員交換了,所以就到劉建國委員。那個,展鴻路委員。我請內政部。內政部齁?董事長嗎?"},{"start":22797.868,"end":22825.324,"text":"董事長市長其實我們內政部其實這個在前瞻裏面補助地方蠻多的而且蠻多都是那種基礎建設是但也有很多的建設我感覺這個進度是不是有不如預期"},{"start":22827.804,"end":22835.961,"text":"進度不如預期我們的進度都有隨時在管控,而且滾動式在檢討都在九成以上真的嗎?對"},{"start":22838.069,"end":22863.883,"text":"那你給我警察辦公廳社以及消防廳社在我們新北所有的預算額度然後他們的執行的狀況你給我一份在我們新北的警察辦公廳社跟消防廳社所有的部分我要所有的"},{"start":22865.064,"end":22869.269,"text":"補助金額跟現在執行的情況,好不好?好,沒問題"},{"start":22875.811,"end":22897.096,"text":"首長你都站起來了我想請問你一下我們有一個提升道路品質計畫這個人行道我們總共的預算第5期裡面有65億元他辦理的情況如何?"},{"start":22898.757,"end":22923.394,"text":"其實它都是延續給地方申請的所以這個部分其實大部分都已經有案子在排而且大概排出來的額度應該已經都差不多快要滿了我知道這個當然是有很多是延續性的可是如果從數據上來講我們全國市區人行道普及率110年底是36.6%但"},{"start":22927.95,"end":22953.04,"text":"一百一十二年年底38.04兩個年度只增加一點我說明一下好了因為其實當時第一次在算的時候大概就是用以舊有可以設人行道的12米路以上來計算那後來因為我們因為整個社會的要求所以我們是把這個12米路的標準再往下降"},{"start":22954.008,"end":22981.425,"text":"也就是說8米以上你只要有可以設的都希望它可以盡量設所以那個分母是變大那個分母是也就是說我雖然每年都有在增加但是因為你分母變大那這是第一個第二個就是說因為提升道路品質它其實有改善的方式改善的內容很多也包含了這個原有道路破損嚴重必須要重新更換也有所謂的側溝要改善跟人行道改善"},{"start":22982.105,"end":23003.971,"text":"那所以在人行道的專注的項目或許沒那麼多所以才會有從去年開始有永續提升行人環境的這樣的一個計畫專注在做以人行道跟危險路口改善為主的那當然希望透過這專案的計畫能夠快速的提升人行道的一個比例所以慢慢就把它做一個分開來處理是這樣子"},{"start":23006.192,"end":23015.286,"text":"署長,現在大家都覺得行人的安全重要,我們也很重視這一塊,那你既然分母變大的情況之下,"},{"start":23017.386,"end":23035.207,"text":"你給出的數據你應該就可以兩個數據讓大家一清二楚12米以上是多少啊現在已經增加到多少了我們後來增加了8米是多少啊可能8米的你那個基礎又很低啊那可能又增加很快啊"},{"start":23037.629,"end":23038.81,"text":"謝謝張宏祿委員接著我們請謝亦鳳委員"},{"start":23079.671,"end":23079.931,"text":"主席"},{"start":23098.567,"end":23113.956,"text":"市長,我想請問一下,這一次的停車改善的這個計畫為什麼過去都是編列蠻多的,為什麼這一次好像只有41億啊?過去我看到有73億、有96億是因為執行率的關係嗎?主計長"},{"start":23119.963,"end":23138.635,"text":"因為我們原來大概有260幾億,現在計畫已經算是最後一期了。對,那可是對於真的有需要改善的地方,我看到了去年的這個執行率都不高對不對?有些地方是確實是不高。"},{"start":23139.295,"end":23164.851,"text":"對不對?那我們其實彰化的和美鎮他們有來跟我拜託他們有極確的需求因為他們的人口急速的成長然後他們又接近台中那很多人都有就是說上下班的關係或者是都有用車的需求那所以對於這一種有急需要停車改善你們是不是應該給予支持啊?"},{"start":23165.447,"end":23193.209,"text":"我跟委員報告我想那個停車場部分其實大概這種地方必須依他的需求依他優先順序提出來那我想我們公路局會依照他們的提出來的不管是可能性或怎麼樣看他的必要性、他的經濟性、效益性來再做一個評估我是不是可以請公路局我跟你講這個部分過去在李孟彥部長的時候其實已經答應了那"},{"start":23193.949,"end":23203.692,"text":"這個部分已經有答應了,但是現在又換一個部長啊,所以我才要來這邊再繼續跟你講啊,我還要來拜託主計長勒,這還要他核可勒,對不對?"},{"start":23210.354,"end":23229.355,"text":"各位報告因為就是說整個前瞻計畫的總經費這個260億元那編列8年到這個這個明年8月其實已經都太冰冷了你不要跟我講那麼長我才5分鐘你快點局長你跟我講可不可以同意我們現在已經報行政院有新增一個這個修正計畫要再爭取60億元"},{"start":23230.396,"end":23236.119,"text":"主席長,還有一個問題,就是少子女化,少子女化也是你們的政策,可是少子女化,我們有非常多的鄉鎮都沒有相關的經費,"},{"start":23260.37,"end":23273.485,"text":"那這個部分要怎麼處理?衛福部?他不回答。衛福部齁。邱部長。邱部長齁。邱部長我以前對你不錯欸。少子女化。"},{"start":23275.393,"end":23296.675,"text":"少子女化的議題委員好少子女化就是0到2歲兒童社區公共托嬰計畫這個部分執行率只有7成多我們彰化縣對於衛福部的計畫向來執行率都很高就這個部分你是不是應該要協助"},{"start":23299.161,"end":23311.026,"text":"我們會特別來瞭解特別瞭解有在協助一定要感覺那個關係很遠而且彰化的申請案件也相當多只是都還沒發包只是還沒發包"},{"start":23313.188,"end":23313.468,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":23334.437,"end":23334.637,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":23353.37,"end":23373.916,"text":"謝謝主席、楊麒麟發言、邀請經濟部相關的提到哪一個單位就請來可以協助回答首先是經濟部產業技術師我們在第5期最後一期的前瞻計畫裡頭我們編列到了綠能建設2.1億數位建設27億所以總共這個向下是29.3035萬SE"},{"start":23381.319,"end":23381.339,"text":"軍委獎註"},{"start":23397.674,"end":23418.572,"text":"好,所以我再次說明,也就是經濟部在我們的這個商業技術室裡頭我們第5期裡頭特別編列29億多的這個經費但是我們看到這些經費呢,我們補助的公園院是11億多占整個技術室裡頭的前瞻的第5期大概是37.8%"},{"start":23420.533,"end":23434.514,"text":"如果按照技術師所提供的資料在近5年裡頭你們整體法人的科專計畫發展的成果收入也是佔研發經費投入的金額平均比例是15.34"},{"start":23436.357,"end":23456.482,"text":"但是在同期的工研院研發的這個收入裡頭呢比平均是14.77那換句話說我們花了這麼多錢卻略低於整體法人研發成果的收入這個這個收入比的一個平均率那這怎麼辦呢"},{"start":23457.563,"end":23473.184,"text":"請說明跟委員報告一下就是說目前來講112年這個比例已經成長到20.4了那為什麼這個比例成長成長不容易是因為公園大部分的經費都投入在前瞻跟生技醫藥的一個研究"},{"start":23473.784,"end":23493.729,"text":"所以在短期之內其實不太容易達成成效。那這讓人民覺得我的納稅錢到了前瞻又特別預算,但是我看不到方向啊。我看不到方向啊。你們有沒有預期我到底到什麼時候會有什麼樣的成長?你總是不能無底洞到最後告訴我急落落、膨脹沒有成果啊。"},{"start":23494.409,"end":23521.337,"text":"所以我具體要求你應該具體策略強化你整個在補助計畫的後續執行監督研發成果的一個落實使用因為你只有研發你沒有去使用你根本把這個錢都浪費掉了而且也讓這個研發者很沒有榮耀啊而且沒有成效嘛那怎麼辦呢你們要怎麼樣去調整這個方案呢"},{"start":23522.363,"end":23529.831,"text":"好,我們就照文的這個意思你去研討那個方案對那多久時間可以告訴我們我們是不是"},{"start":23532.144,"end":23558.99,"text":"兩個禮拜內兩個禮拜告訴我你不能現在才告訴我說我因為科技所以我這前瞻最後一起到時候你說又是前瞻的錢那到時候沒有前瞻的錢那先前所投資的那不是浪費掉了嗎十幾趴這個怎麼樣比例人家也聽不進去啊人民的納稅錢那麼辛苦對不對我們願意支持但是要看成效嘛好不好兩個禮拜把方案拿出來"},{"start":23559.77,"end":23560.191,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期"},{"start":23575.43,"end":23580.991,"text":"但是我們又看到經濟部你經濟部自己統計調查的財政部關稅署進口貿易的這個統計呢112年裡頭國內半導體設備需求是多少6858億他的國產比只有11體"},{"start":23597.016,"end":23622.991,"text":"11.2%雖然你知道你比這個108到111年略有提升但是我們還是發覺在整個比例方面我們還是靠進口我們還是靠進口而且要有6858頁這一塊餅這麼大我們政府怎麼看待之呢所以我要請教我們過度的去仰賴整個海外的設備跟原料的供給"},{"start":23623.951,"end":23639.357,"text":"我們只佔了十幾%尤其現在美國川普上任之後我們也不知道到底會有什麼樣的變化、化學作用所以大家很緊張所以市長你看到這個比例你覺得要怎麼辦"},{"start":23640.057,"end":23640.397,"text":"我們的前瞻是5年"},{"start":23660.178,"end":23679.663,"text":"這是五期這是最後一期我們到現在給我們的答案6千多億將近7千億我們的比11點多我們還沒有拿出這個方案出來所以次長針對這個議題我們要怎麼樣去強化整備我們整個半導體的這個關鍵材料跟它設備供應面的韌性"},{"start":23684.364,"end":23703.674,"text":"這一個耐性是非常的重要讓我們整個材料設備有自主性跟國產化這是我們人民的納稅錢所希望的最重要的精髓嗎是那你們現在怎麼做你也把書面資料給本席好嗎多久時間給本席也是兩個禮拜兩個禮拜最後一個議題我們的這個水災災情跟這個淹水的問題水運署"},{"start":23710.817,"end":23729.821,"text":"我看到我們一到四期水環境的跟水安全已經投入將近500億的經費來辦理縣市管理這個河川跟區域整合的排水系統整合整體性的一個改善這個大家很加油但是我覺得很納悶在第五期的方面你編列了101億又1000萬可是我來反推113年裡頭6月底你還沒有發包的"},{"start":23739.463,"end":23749.343,"text":"你還沒有發包的喔你就有92項欸你的1到3項裡頭你還有70項啊治理工程你沒有發包欸這些就取消"},{"start":23750.455,"end":23750.695,"text":"主席"},{"start":23779.225,"end":23799.16,"text":"第一個,我們一到四期的執行率到今年年底絕對會超過95%本席告訴你,本席是針對你的這幾項嗎?那這幾項的部分,因為我們希望提早完工,所以我們是跨年度來核定所以有一些沒有發包的工程,它必須要先取得用地"},{"start":23800.061,"end":23825.761,"text":"我們是跨年度來分配經費的包括有一些分配到第5期所以我們很有信心說第5期的包括101億都可以執行主席在這邊本期告訴你是第一期到第三期那你說你要跨到第5期才要來發報第一期到第三期的部分事實上我們已經執行決算的這個金額的話執行率是百分之百"},{"start":23826.842,"end":23829.864,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":23846.495,"end":23866.12,"text":"你現在統計到8月份嘛本期統計的是到6月底以前你還有92項其中就是第一期到第三期有70項還沒有發報那你現在告訴我的是說告訴本期是說你我的是跨期是要跨到第5期才去發報那你為什麼要編到一到三期的呢不是跨到第5期才發報那你剛才這麼說啊"},{"start":23868.206,"end":23895.411,"text":"到年底它會發包然後它的使用的經費會跨113跟114實際的這個工作進行的經費是你還是承認你還有這一下還沒發包你會預計到年底才要發包有這個信心嗎?是不是?因為我們增核了我們增核了這一些我們用滾動式的結構對!對!對!對!對!對!所以我知道你們水利單位很辛苦但是我也希望錢要花到刀口上好!謝謝委員長我們會加強管控好!謝謝"},{"start":23898.817,"end":23899.659,"text":"謝謝楊強英委員接著我們請劉建國委員"},{"start":23911.503,"end":23937.349,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請代理處長。好,委員好。對,因為剛好看到你,所以要跟你寒暄幾句。我說你很辛苦,連續三次颱風,但是這種極端氣候,你必須要辛苦。你如果沒有辛苦,就沒有辦法去應變這樣的一個極端氣候所造成的損害。因為我們台灣第一大母河濁水區,就快要到漲潮的這種,過這個堤防的這樣的一個水位。"},{"start":23938.189,"end":23955.721,"text":"那所以我們在106年的時候積極您跟我還有當時的公共工程委會的這個主委吳哲成大家同心協力的可以讓索爾西的這個三人炮的整治得到第一期、第二期到現在第三期的競會那也從107年一直到現在"},{"start":23958.203,"end":23985.423,"text":"首長應該還記得吧,結果在112年是第二期的最後一年,其實成效斐然。也就是從以前的《三人報》這個東北京將近四個月時間,我們從原有的《三人報》的這個將近有59天,一直到去年度就剩下差不多2到5天左右了,應該是這麼講。但是你知道今年的狀況嗎?"},{"start":23986.844,"end":24009.586,"text":"現在又是東北季風,首長有掌握嗎?能不能簡單回答一下?我們現在掌握的話,這個禮拜因為它的風速超過10秒,每秒10米左右,又增加了一天。那基本上,今年的卓爾西的陽城的房子,延續過去的結果,過去時數每秒5公尺以上就會產生陽城。那我們現在可以控制到時數,"},{"start":24011.806,"end":24036.094,"text":"在每秒8公尺都不會有養成的這個問題那今年當然不幸因為楷米颱風讓我們之前7月多所投入的東西有一些損壞了那我們很快的就把它復原過來那當然我們的同仁也在第一線上非常的努力那我們會覺得說我們會延續過去的這個精神在行政院的指導之下跟各部會共同來努力"},{"start":24036.554,"end":24054.642,"text":"我是要提醒署長我相信你有掌握不過那個反例的速度可能是不是要再加快因為以前我們有三個月的平台會議對不對那現在幾乎都沒有再開我覺得這是有問題這第一我已經有跟陳主委提醒過這件事情了那第二我們當然知道"},{"start":24055.362,"end":24078.754,"text":"何大為來之後可能會造成原理我們相關的一些這些做法做回會有損害的一個情況但是我們很清楚有的是經常性有的是要臨時來做相關的一些做法上的工法上的一些處理那你都有衛星的定位在做整個掌控所以這一段時間其實坦白講非常的嚴重"},{"start":24080.171,"end":24101.136,"text":"是,那特別是像這個禮拜或是像下禮拜的禮拜二之後,都是東北氣風非常強勁的時候,這個對我們養成房子是非常艱鉅的挑戰。那事實上陳政委也是多次的關心,不論是濁水溪養成的問題還有高屏溪,那甚至台東的養成的問題,當然我們現在...因為我的時間很有限,我知道"},{"start":24101.636,"end":24102.097,"text":"社交署"},{"start":24120.419,"end":24148.599,"text":"給司法署看一個表格啦,我不曉得這是什麼數據這個0到6歲國家一起養2.0這是賴總統推動重要的政策之一不只是政府的補助跟津貼的相關的資源到位啦那嬰幼兒的托育制度也是非常的重要我們可以看這個表格,請部長跟首長看一下你看你底下的這個部件托育資源中心,部件人數"},{"start":24149.58,"end":24158.871,"text":"我們就看112跟113都已經達到125,達到400但是受益萬能次的最下一個112年度是98.87為什麼113年度是51.37能不能簡單說明一下時間的關係好,可不可以說明一下這個"},{"start":24168.957,"end":24192.043,"text":"報告委員是因為疫情的關係所以有些稍微想調整疫情的關係應該部件拖曳支援中心會跟拖動社區公共拖曳設施遇到的狀況會一致嘛對不對對阿為什麼你的公共拖曳的設施社區公共拖曳的設施你的部件部件數113年100、113年125但是受益人數120是126、113年度是170"},{"start":24198.114,"end":24198.234,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24214.122,"end":24214.242,"text":"主席"},{"start":24234.58,"end":24234.68,"text":"主席"},{"start":24250.748,"end":24270.687,"text":"而且112年的下半年度跟113年度的這個狀況執行怎麼會跟疫情有關係?你總是要先在這邊打我啊!你事情要再跟我講什麼再講啊!公開來先回應清楚啊!你回應不清楚你事情下也不用再跟我講了啊!"},{"start":24272.99,"end":24294.696,"text":"跟我有說明,因為這邊的統計實施到113年6月,所以看到319,那如果是112,一整年是600多,就是還有半年的數據沒有出現。你對照你的社區公共設施嘛,你下面就是可以達標,你下面這個統計資源中心你就能幫我達標,而且落差值非常大。"},{"start":24299.735,"end":24313.391,"text":"一百一十二年度就是九十八點八七一一一一三年度就是五十一點三七啊快減半了快砍半了但是你的公共托育設施我一直在講你一二可以達到一二六一一三還跑到一百七的啊"},{"start":24318.188,"end":24320.85,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":24341.113,"end":24364.365,"text":"最少你要簡單的有辦法跟我們說明啊因為委員可以看到我們的托育資源中心在113年目標值是621他是全年度的那這邊提到的統計是到113年6月底是319所以他就是大概執行一半到年底的時候預計就會達到621這是我們到年底的目標值那因為現在統計只有半年所以他的那個達成率只有51%"},{"start":24367.557,"end":24369.938,"text":"好 我們休息10分鐘讓官員休息一下 辛苦"},{"start":24392.774,"end":24397.556,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":24439.127,"end":24446.249,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":24469.778,"end":24475.02,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":24509.102,"end":24514.508,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":24531.837,"end":24538.241,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":24583.367,"end":24590.253,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":24617.022,"end":24618.029,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":24658.274,"end":24663.059,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":24988.336,"end":24988.876,"text":"教育部正部長"},{"start":25024.079,"end":25049.554,"text":"委員好部長無安喔怕您那個坐在這邊太久沒有走動所以要跟您請教一個跟雙語政策有關的問題啦那先請問部長我想部長請問您那個每年度因為我們未來體育署要升格嘛明年度的體育經費在您教育部下面的是多少錢呢您大概記得嗎"},{"start":25050.635,"end":25051.476,"text":"我們看到我們在前瞻裡面這個雙語政策的經費從125億增加到150億"},{"start":25074.679,"end":25076.821,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":25089.326,"end":25089.726,"text":"委員會指詢體育這個部分"},{"start":25113.165,"end":25136.201,"text":"關於雙語政策怎麼推動,其實非常少人好好來跟教育部討論今天就想跟您討論一個我認為這個雙語政策你們的六大重點裡面的其中一個我非常關心的就是你們的2030雙語政策推動重點裡面這邊就是你們的影像有一個是米平偏鄉落差"},{"start":25137.702,"end":25138.583,"text":"米平偏鄉落差"},{"start":25163.903,"end":25184.051,"text":"跟委員報告我們在偏鄉這裡邊確實它是一個非常重要的一個一塊所以我們在這個雙乙的學辦我們有800名的大學生他們會進入到偏鄉去協助不管假日或者這一個寒暑假另外我們也透過這一個數位共讀裡邊來協助偏鄉的一些"},{"start":25190.434,"end":25204.404,"text":"有補助兩萬台的一個平板另外我們還有用酷英網這個部分能夠讓學童能夠自學包含我們也發展出這一個英語能力的一個自我檢測"},{"start":25206.185,"end":25221.452,"text":"因為時間的緣故我就不繼續就是我知道部長講的東西你們計畫書都有在你們的計畫書的第4頁就提到您剛講的這些方法那其中我最關注的是穩定偏鄉師資來源包含雙語公費生偏鄉合理援額雙語數位學習資源那我只是請問部長"},{"start":25228.835,"end":25228.995,"text":"更委員"},{"start":25250.453,"end":25278.633,"text":"報告我們事實上在偏眼條例那邊有另外我們有13億特別來做消弭這個城鄉的差異對北鄉教育的一個教育那不是針對所有的不是針對英語的嘛那現在我想請問您英語的另外一個問題就是英語程度有非常好的小一的時候就程度很好那有非常差的那我希望雙語政策不是讓好的更好贏者全拿老師配合很厲害的學生教"},{"start":25279.133,"end":25280.975,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":25296.515,"end":25318.15,"text":"因為時間的緣故部長可不可以針對這兩個部分因為現在臺師大的林子兵教授就有說五大亂象英語老師幾乎產為全校的翻譯機每科都雙語反而亞苗助長部長你有回應說未來不會強迫非英語課的老師用英語上課"},{"start":25320.091,"end":25343.23,"text":"我們一定要努力來用英文上課然後當然也有部分領域只要不是我們那一個學測那一個會考的一個科目國語、數學、科學這些東西我們基本上那其實中醫部在這個方面的政策轉彎蠻大的我想部長這不是您的責任報告我們沒有轉彎我們是深化"},{"start":25347.413,"end":25367.852,"text":"因為我進來以後我特別要求我們國教署在未來從2024到2030有6年我要分兩個階段上的時期每一個階段從小孩子各年齡自我介紹包括學校的一個怎樣的一個比較生活化日常生活裡面的一個就是你讓我收個尾馬上好"},{"start":25368.933,"end":25369.914,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":25388.331,"end":25407.442,"text":"第一個,教育部是不是能夠請低限的英文老師,邀請他們來開滾動式的檢討會議?因為我認為英文老師他的方法、他的經驗應該是教育部最要聽的。是的。第二個,可不可以召集教育跟語言的專家展開諮詢會議,商討最適合台灣這種母語不是英語的、適切的教學方法,好不好?"},{"start":25413.746,"end":25414.046,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":25431.593,"end":25433.854,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":25458.816,"end":25486.039,"text":"謝謝范雲范委員,接著我們請游浩游委員OK,謝謝早委,那我要問有請交通部"},{"start":25486.673,"end":25487.116,"text":"交通部吳次長"},{"start":25500.8,"end":25524.785,"text":"市長好,那大家都知道臺灣有三大鐵路支線那在南投線的話是這個集集支線那牽扯到我們南投線的觀光命脈包括民間的濁水還有集集還有水利還有一直到車程那您也知道上次您跟院長有來的時候包括臺鐵集集支線基礎設施改善計畫"},{"start":25525.825,"end":25545.193,"text":"它的執行期程108年到115年那在看到第4期的前瞻的成效跟第5期還在編列的部分的話第5期編列的部分在相關的經費是編多少?總共在這邊是編了3億3億那它總經費預算是23.63億那在編了這個3億那是不是23億等63是完全都編足?有沒有短少?"},{"start":25555.558,"end":25556.681,"text":"那目前來講的話短少多少?"},{"start":25568.683,"end":25593.05,"text":"現在我現在剛講了我們現在算出一切是目前是編組了啊如果有修正計畫那時候我們再來看從那個公務預算來編列好那本席也在這裡提出因為南投其實大家非常的關心這個支線的進度那尤其是第4期的成效再到第5期的預算編列那在這裡市長也確實承諾就是不完全編組嘛所以23.631在這第5期是完全編組那"},{"start":25595.731,"end":25613.174,"text":"他的計畫期程是108年的8月到115年的7月那這樣子到時候有編組的話是不是可以在2022年的7月如期完工對 可以可以如期完工所以到時候就可以來進行這個通車典禮嘛是那就讓我們整個集集支線的這個包括"},{"start":25613.815,"end":25616.977,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":25637.771,"end":25637.991,"text":"主席"},{"start":25657.889,"end":25673.344,"text":"目前沒有問題啊目前沒有問題對OK好那太好了那本期在接著的話要針對部長就特別感謝交通部因為也剛好接著接我們回應藍頭的鄉親謝謝那接著的話要請教課委會"},{"start":25676.164,"end":25694.663,"text":"科委會克加369級浪漫台山線8億的經費目前來講我們看到了桃竹苗還有包括是臺中、高雄、屏東甚至東部的花蓮都有申請8億多用了4億多包括克加博覽會"},{"start":25695.564,"end":25713.043,"text":"但是在這裡在南投縣未來要成立這個客家發展所那其實南投縣的客家族群那基本來講有6萬多如果以廣義來講就是結婚的加起來將近有三分之一到四分之一是跟客家有淵源那本期在這裡要提出"},{"start":25714.024,"end":25736.919,"text":"這個客家的發展他除了在客家縣市他在各個縣市其實都有客家族群那本席在這裡希望說看到前瞻基礎過去在客家族群的照顧都侷限於這個桃竹苗跟就是北客或南客那在客家博覽會未來在南投縣是不是可以在舉辦明年度的時候也可以在南投縣找個地方當作職場地或分論壇"},{"start":25739.907,"end":25764.286,"text":"在前瞻的部分前瞻預算已經分配完了那我們會在公務預算上來支持各地的客家的在建設不管是活動部分那因為前瞻預算分配完我們看到第4期跟第5期資料都有顯示但是也因為這樣子更凸顯著在其他的縣像南投縣其實在客家族群是沒有被照顧到的或是較少被照顧到的"},{"start":25765.246,"end":25781.908,"text":"平常過去一直以來到現在我目前為止也是都由公務預算來支持我們沒有否認客委員會的努力跟用心因為南投縣客家活動我都有參與只是本席在這裡提出是其實南投縣在客家發展所將來在明年成立之後"},{"start":25782.449,"end":25783.31,"text":"二、中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ．"},{"start":25804.871,"end":25820.578,"text":"是跟委員報告這也是我們接下來的任務就是區域的發展整個要均衡客家的區域不只在桃竹苗連桃園桃竹苗的海線的客家的部分然後像委員提的南投嘉義嘉義也有很多"},{"start":25820.998,"end":25822.419,"text":"二、中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ．"},{"start":25857.224,"end":25885.071,"text":"謝謝主席、立院同仁跟所有行政院相關的夥伴們大家好在開始前我是不是可以先請幾位主管第一位是教育部正部長第二位是園民會的曾主委可以請你們先出列那這待會因為時間比較緊所以我就先請幾位部長先上來然後文化部的李部長教育部陳部長跟觀光署的周署長"},{"start":25886.672,"end":25893.803,"text":"經濟部是不太有機會但是經濟部也是有跟文化部相關的議題之後我再來繼續做一些處理"},{"start":25898.476,"end":25920.295,"text":"好 那麼我們先從教育部政部長您好那在前瞻計畫的這個第5期你們的特別預算裡面有關於數位學習的這個計畫那這個是跟延續第3期、第4期在數位建設裡面就有22億的22億5000萬元但我目前掌握的數據我不曉得您大概了解這個部分的執行率有多少嗎"},{"start":25921.396,"end":25949.524,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上這一個前瞻預算的第4期裡邊已經達到超過90%那之所以原來的第三季會有一些稍微落後是因為它這個花包因為比較專業這一個全國的這個學術網路它比較專業複雜度高所以它流標了所以到第二標才標出去但是現在整個進度已經上來到目前已經超過九成了"},{"start":25950.263,"end":25955.393,"text":"好的 那我想你也知道學術網路這個問題所以我這邊的數據大概只有31.63跟14.38那所以你們現在大概是在在這個數據以外大概還有多少的進程?"},{"start":25971.784,"end":25986.601,"text":"台灣學術網路的服務優化計畫在10月的達成率已經到95.97然後有一個是高級中等學校的智慧網路環境暨學術網路提升計畫10月的話已經到96.64跟委員報告"},{"start":25989.324,"end":26006.758,"text":"好,所以你們後來有追上了所以我這邊就做一個提醒因為部長您也知道本席非常關注偏鄉教育資源的問題所以在你們這一期的預算在偏鄉這個部分本席這邊也請您多加注意然後持續追蹤,好嗎?"},{"start":26008.399,"end":26009.861,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":26028.781,"end":26034.165,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":26057.455,"end":26074.95,"text":"有的地方真的是還做得不好,我們還要去協助他啦。好,那你也知道問題齁,所以本席這邊提醒你,是不是在我們原住民的這個商品其實有很多很棒的,但是這個通路平台如果沒有有效的運用,那對我們的整個部落的這個產品也感覺到很可惜。"},{"start":26075.37,"end":26076.031,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":26094.369,"end":26095.25,"text":"主語教室的不足可多做改進?"},{"start":26112.16,"end":26112.68,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":26128.365,"end":26128.685,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":26151.033,"end":26151.373,"text":"議員提醒議員"},{"start":26171.212,"end":26171.352,"text":"進行專題報告．"},{"start":26189.377,"end":26190.158,"text":"所以這個部分我要請部長多加看管"},{"start":26206.638,"end":26217.863,"text":"我們不希望很多這個地方的建設因此而被卡住。接下來我問一個,請問一下嘉義園村園區,你們W棟的這個無償撥用,請問是什麼樣一個狀況?就是嘉義市政府都已經將相關的這個經費都已經編了,可是為什麼你們不撥用給他們?"},{"start":26229.662,"end":26229.802,"text":"主席"},{"start":26251.264,"end":26265.014,"text":"請部長多加注意因為嘉義市這邊已經有很大的聲音就是說這個原創園區他們其實周邊的這個設施都做得、準備得很齊全可是你們這樣子的狀況讓他們都一直陷於一個不知的情況所以請部長"},{"start":26267.436,"end":26272.018,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":26293.409,"end":26321.423,"text":"這個不是以前在前瞻計畫裡面你們一開始是延伸到嘉義市嗎?為什麼現在在第5期都已經到了最後的機會你們沒有到嘉義市?沒有,嘉義市我們在用公務預算來下去編列你確定有嗎?確定那這個部分是不是可以請你們來跟本席做一個更細部的一個報告?可以,是好,謝謝,那謝謝交通部謝謝林千祺委員接著請林黛華委員林黛華,林黛華,林黛華不在王振旭委員"},{"start":26334.442,"end":26339.415,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部水利署賴建信署長"},{"start":26348.536,"end":26371.303,"text":"委員好,首長好,今天利用一點時間來跟您討論一下前瞻建設在治水方面的執行情形我本身是一個臨床醫師,那來諮詢這部分會不會讓你覺得有點訝異因為我在基隆長庚服務了20多年的時間,所以針對基隆道淪溪的整治,非常感謝"},{"start":26372.423,"end":26372.683,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":26392.23,"end":26410.122,"text":"至少到今年為止有那麼多次的颱風跟強降水、強降雨基本上都非常非常的順暢那這一部分也可以請署長能夠進一步說明目前大輪溪整治的狀況還有後續要注意的部分"},{"start":26411.122,"end":26434.376,"text":"跟委員說明,大五輪溪短期的工作都已經改善完成那大幅的提升了大五輪的保護標準,達到10年到25年的保護標準所以今年的凱米、山托爾颱風甚至是康瑞颱風在這個地方我們有支援基隆市政府包括抽水機的部分那至於現在在施工中的可能是那個"},{"start":26435.834,"end":26462.58,"text":"明樂路就是後面那一段大概是在明年的這個訓期之前就可以完工了那原本有規劃一個中長期的措施就是在棒球場的部分那棒球場若是基隆市政部在改建棒球場的話順道會實現我們在水利法修正的淨流分攤的精神讓棒球場的有一些產生了滯洪池的功能的話那這個部分"},{"start":26463.52,"end":26483.271,"text":"據我了解基隆市政府也就已經有做一些規劃但是這些規劃的經費我們也是有補助他但是他現在還沒有設計出來那我預估在前瞻的這個第5期的裡面可能他還沒有辦法去設計出來不過跟委員說明的是現在行政院國安會已經審議過了"},{"start":26485.595,"end":26499.54,"text":"因應氣候變遷的後前瞻的協助地方政府的改善的計畫未來我們再來跟基隆市政府再來討論那這些工作完成了之後會大幅的提升大幅的沿岸包括寄進公路包括麥當勞那個地方的淹水問題"},{"start":26501.721,"end":26528.691,"text":"好,非常感謝因為這個棒球運動場跟那個滯洪園區的部分也是非常重要要收尾的地方那第二部分就是有關於這個嘉義的鄉親針對於嘉義大嶺的鹿絕溝當然叫做鹿骨溝那是一個非常良好的一個水環境工程的一個部分那很期待在利用這一次的這個過程當中能不能夠也把這個水環境的改善"},{"start":26529.731,"end":26530.812,"text":"請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":26545.606,"end":26571.108,"text":"這個部分的工作我們會跟嘉義縣政府一起來努力事實上我們也希望說嘉義縣政府有一個所謂空間發展藍圖的這個規劃那我們未來的前瞻的5期預算若是城門大院通過的話它可能還有11億左右的這個經費我們希望說透過一定的評比、客觀的評比那看看它能不能擠得上、擠不上好 謝謝署長的說明請回座"},{"start":26572.609,"end":26577.096,"text":"再過來這一部分要麻煩交通部航港局的葉協榮 葉局長來 局長麻煩您"},{"start":26585.97,"end":26611.036,"text":"之所以會麻煩葉學長是因為這個海洋的基隆國門廣場是一個非常漂亮建設到目前為止經過前市長林佑昌市長的處理我們可以看到第一階段已經在民國111年完成了那第二階段是要串接市區的這些工程這個部分不知道目前的執行狀況怎麼樣因為橋樑好像蓋了一半不會沒有錢蓋另外一半吧"},{"start":26611.916,"end":26632.464,"text":"各位委員報告,非常感謝委員的關心這個是一個對基隆的未來港式發展很重要的工程目前的執行進度已經達到71.52%略為超前預定的進度預計在明年初應該可以完成這個部分"},{"start":26634.085,"end":26651.207,"text":"我們在第5期的這個預算第5期的前瞻預算已經有編列相對相應的一個所需的經費所以這邊也要拜託委員能夠支持這個預算能夠順利的通過那讓這個工程可以順利來完成好"},{"start":26652.428,"end":26654.569,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":26674.645,"end":26703.004,"text":"是,那各位知道大概到年底目前正在辦理細部設計那預計在年底可以達到30%的一個進度那明年可以來完成那這個部分我想在第5期的前瞻預算我們也相對應編列了所需的一個經費所以也要拜託委員來支持那我們希望能夠順利能夠來營造一個更好的一個市容跟港區的一個環境好,謝謝局長"},{"start":26705.185,"end":26707.026,"text":"何新淳委主席內政部主席"},{"start":26733.592,"end":26741.897,"text":"前瞻我們今天要審第5期特別預算案我大概從預算書裡面整理一下配置裡面其中城鄉建設是最多的221億222億多"},{"start":26749.761,"end":26778.307,"text":"這一個我想請教一下這其中一個我最重視的一個城鄉建設裡面就是它確實對於我們地方建設非常的大那尤其我在地方上有聽到好多聲音包括我們針對很多人社區活動中心的一個內政補強或者是社區活動中心的一個重建那地方政府如果財源不夠或者是需要中央支持我們都是全力大力的願意給予支持"},{"start":26781.97,"end":26802.646,"text":"地方政府沒有提案來爭取的話其實像我們民意代表不管中央我們都會結合地方的民意代表一起的來爭取也期待地方政府能夠提出計畫那我們中央來補助我現在手頭上的一個頭片聖河活動中心拖了兩年沒蓋地方的紛紛擾擾地方政府一直說是我們的預算還沒有過"},{"start":26804.467,"end":26825.982,"text":"董事這個我有請內政部的同仁去現場去會堪過那呢我們也說得非常清楚當前瞻特別預算在這個會期如果所有政黨都能夠支持趕快的排審趕快的審查三讀通過我想我們一定會"},{"start":26827.243,"end":26849.139,"text":"幫忙協助地方政府只要有提案不管是社區活動中心的內政補強或者是重建我們一定都是大力的支持對不對董事跟委員報告首先這些活動中心等等地方政府必須要優先解決它的相關的土地用地問題我們必須在合法的基礎上面去處理那所以地方政府應該負起相關的責任第二個我們會滾動式的檢討"},{"start":26850.76,"end":26867.357,"text":"相關的案子只要地方提出來我們就會積極的協助所以只要委員、部分草野大家大力支持我們絕對會協助所以我再拜託一下除了地方政府該處理的一些用地或者是一些沒有取得建造史照的部分"},{"start":26868.018,"end":26885.636,"text":"那我還是認為中央對於沒有建造始造的這種有歷史因故原有的一個老舊的社區活動中心我們還是應該要想辦法用什麼樣的機制來協助地方一一的盤點一一的來整建因為我必須要"},{"start":26886.357,"end":26886.457,"text":"主席"},{"start":26909.042,"end":26909.282,"text":"進行專題報告．"},{"start":26929.628,"end":26958.077,"text":"故事的這些老舊的活動中心我們如何能夠解套?第二個只要地方有提案我們儘速審查儘速的來補助預算來內政補強也好或是重建也好我要拜託內政部承諾好不好?會,我們會跟中央我們會跟地方一起合作我們會跟中央其他部會一起滾動檢討然後協助取得合法的身份我希望滾動式檢討而且預算能夠增多那接下來少子化的部分我要請教衛生福利部"},{"start":26958.938,"end":26959.28,"text":"來 謝謝董事 謝謝剩下一點點時間喔"},{"start":26969.276,"end":26993.555,"text":"市長,您好。要改善少子語化,托育政策很重要。我們過去數年來,教育部那邊做2到6歲的托育中心,0到2歲的托育中心是你們。我必須要說,0到2歲的公共托育中心,以台中市來講是嚴重不足。"},{"start":26994.195,"end":27019.398,"text":"台中市現在全國第二大城市超過280萬人口我們現在目前只有45處那我們年輕的家庭不斷的移入年輕的人口不斷的增加所以我們需要更多的平價優質的托嬰中心所以這個部分衛生福利部是不是可以協助是的 因為今年的話台中市也有提出申請那我們現在在加速處理當中台中市提出申請幾處"},{"start":27022.887,"end":27040.354,"text":"您會後把資料給我,那儘速的來審議,儘速的來核定補助好不好?那我再請教一下,除了0到2歲的投營中心,現在年輕家庭碰到的是什麼?2到3歲的專班,這個跟教育部有關係,還是衛生福利部?這時候教育部有處理得很好。"},{"start":27040.714,"end":27070.243,"text":"有處理得很好嗎?我們台中也還不夠啊所以教育部現在有聽到是不是可以幫幫忙啊除了0到2歲的托育中心嚴重的不足之外這個2到3歲的這個專班在這個轉弦當中很多年輕家庭媽媽不知道該怎麼辦爸爸不知道該怎麼辦那如果這個專班不夠的話量能不足的話還是會影響到這一個年輕家庭的這個托育的問題好不好"},{"start":27070.863,"end":27072.324,"text":"主席葛文請經濟部何次長主席總處陳主席長"},{"start":27105.508,"end":27119.814,"text":"陳書長陳書長首先我們看到洋洋灑灑大概4000多億、8000多億的經費究竟它的成果展現在哪裡?民眾大概一般都感覺不出來"},{"start":27121.135,"end":27148.37,"text":"那第一個我先講的是說有那麼多的經費可是最基本最基本的一些同工同酬津貼的問題我先請財政部這邊回答一下我們看到國營的所有的公股銀行裡面發現很大的同工不同酬的情況"},{"start":27151.45,"end":27174.478,"text":"請問為什麼一樣是午餐費、伙食費有的是才750塊有的是3000塊那包括生育補助有的美胎補助才6000塊"},{"start":27176.886,"end":27201.802,"text":"那合庫,像一般民間的銀行啊,它光是一台可能就是,像合庫是15萬,15萬。獎金的部分,也通通都不一樣。員工福利信託的部分,台銀、土銀、出入銀行,通通都沒有。我們可以看到,"},{"start":27203.975,"end":27217.331,"text":"這個民間的就不比啦,我們比其他的,核庫、第一金控、華南等等他每個月都相對有提撥啊,來鼓勵員工來認股所以署長,你是不是來說明一下"},{"start":27224.332,"end":27243.933,"text":"我們在省那麼大的錢啊結果最基本最基本主席長你也應該了解一下這全部都是同工不同酬造成好的人才留不住為什麼伙食會一個月才750塊說明一下吧"},{"start":27248.71,"end":27267.222,"text":"跟委員報告因為台銀、土銀跟輸出銀行是百分之百的國營銀行那另外您剛剛提到合庫、兆豐它是民營的公股銀行所以兩大類的這銀行的那個本質是不太一樣"},{"start":27267.782,"end":27279.237,"text":"那因為國營事業它是屬於單一興奉制所以它的一些相關的那些剛剛說的那個餐飲那個"},{"start":27281.104,"end":27286.227,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":27310.158,"end":27332.629,"text":"請問你,一個月的伙食才750塊,你現在吃個便當要多少錢?不好意思,因為他就是單一興奉,所以這伙食費700塊也不是說真的就是補助他的,不是說要補足他的伙食費,那伙食費的部分其實就是都含在薪資裡面的。"},{"start":27333.254,"end":27350.061,"text":"那這個部分的話,我們未來再跟人事、行政院人事、行政總署再溝通一下。你們好好檢討一下,你看今天這個都是4千多億,那些員工心裡是做何感想?臺營多少的員工?土營多少員工?加一加上萬人耶。"},{"start":27359.079,"end":27385.617,"text":"是6千、8千加上5千這個影響非常的大你們應該好好來做一個合理性的調整好不好好 我們來認真檢討一下那另外一個就是經濟部這邊好 委員好麻煩一下我們地方啊到現在目前為止還有多少地方沒有自來水可以喝你知道嗎"},{"start":27387.2,"end":27412.994,"text":"本席來自新店深坑石碇坪林屋來跟委員報告,全國的自來水補給率大概95%我們希望每年透過這個前瞻預算,我們希望每年能夠增加那你這次有沒有增加?這次有沒有增加?有,我們希望這次的預算能夠也投入到一些屋自來水來,請賴署長好不好?"},{"start":27416.216,"end":27435.367,"text":"跟委員說明,除了簽簽之外,行政院剛剛在這個禮拜就核定了自來水改善的5期的計畫,大概有106億元左右。好,那別的地方我不管。清電深坑、石碇、坪林汙來,我們這一區你編入了多少,可以解決多少沒有自來水喝的問題?"},{"start":27436.047,"end":27464.382,"text":"我們全期希望全國改善6萬戶但是因為它是一個評比機制那這一次跟過往的計畫不一樣是因為我們隨著我們改善的戶數越來越高本來每一戶的成本只要超過60萬就不可能核定但現在的話超過60萬到80萬裡面我們都可以來解決用水最基本的民生問題啊你如果說比較偏遠的地區那你還有你的說法問題新店"},{"start":27465.483,"end":27473.379,"text":"離台北101不到20分鐘,你說離市區那麼近的地方沒有自來水可以喝,這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":27475.098,"end":27500.76,"text":"委員你知道有一些案子我們希望跟社區來溝通因為譬如說彈梅里那個地方它需要5個加壓站那中間的加壓站社區都同意了最下面的社區不同意這個我們需要跟市政府一起來努力當然委員也一直知道我們很多多多來努力你做不到的地方你趕快跟我們說你唯一要做的就是趕快出錢"},{"start":27502.133,"end":27523.831,"text":"其他地方的溝通事項,我們來努力。前瞻前瞻,希望這些很辛苦可憐的人可以真的被瞻到,而不是遙望不可及的美夢。讓美夢成真,行不行?今年要做了。"},{"start":27527.796,"end":27528.156,"text":"請政政前委員"},{"start":27563.071,"end":27570.558,"text":"謝主席,我想請教交通部、經濟部還有衛福部交通部吳次長、經濟部何次長衛福部周次長"},{"start":27578.154,"end":27587.063,"text":"但是首先我想先請教一下交通部因為我們前瞻5期這個部分因為前瞻1、前瞻2、前瞻3、前瞻4其實裡面都有一個跟新竹市有關的就是輕軌計畫那輕軌計畫其實目前坦白來說這麼多年其實都還沒有往前走"},{"start":27595.991,"end":27618.759,"text":"目前最新的狀態是新竹市已經跟新竹縣整合好,然後也跟園區管理局簽了MOU我們現在決定要由新竹市政府來做大新竹輕軌的整合可行性研究報告所需的經費,我想請問一下部長,這個部分可不可以給新竹市政府多一點的預算來重新針對大新竹輕軌的一個規劃"},{"start":27620.334,"end":27630.127,"text":"現在這部分我們其實是已經有補助他現在是有新竹市政府就是跟那個代表跟那個新竹縣政府一起補助多少?現在新竹"},{"start":27640.1,"end":27667.444,"text":"部長,你現在如果沒有數字的時候我想請你這邊的時候能夠具體滿足地方政府的一個要求因為前瞻8800億裡面其實本來有300多億其實在用在新竹市大新竹輕軌可是都沒有用,都沒有用那麼我們現在希望有一個好的一個規劃一個部分那如果說需要1000萬、2000萬的部分我想請教一下這個市長這邊是不是可以支持"},{"start":27668.304,"end":27668.604,"text":"市長,接下來請經濟部"},{"start":27693.716,"end":27709.906,"text":"我想在水域發展計畫當中前瞻裡面有一個部分是水域發展計畫裡面在講到要如何滿足地方上的用水我看到這邊的時候我們看到一個數字說到125年的時候大概每天會有67.59萬噸的缺水"},{"start":27713.108,"end":27740.124,"text":"其中有18.5萬噸是在新竹市缺的部分那我想針對這個部分的時候我們目前有哪些計畫要來解決新竹市的缺水的一個問題跟委員報告這是比較舊的一個資料那目前我們的盤點結果每一個區域我們都是有還有一些供水的一個餘裕量所以這個資料我們在提供給委員那有些新的資料會有一些"},{"start":27741.28,"end":27741.66,"text":"新竹新竹新竹"},{"start":27764.179,"end":27766.9,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案゚〉"},{"start":27787.212,"end":27809.669,"text":"除了對於單位面積的用水量之外我們對於各個行業別即便說是半導體的產業我們都有各個行業別的單位面積的供水的評估當然也有先進製程的評估事實上現階段新竹的漁域的水量供給就是遠遠大於需求超過10萬噸左右"},{"start":27811.591,"end":27817.657,"text":"現在有餘裕10萬噸每天?如果這樣的話就不用做海濫廠了啊"},{"start":27819.341,"end":27845.686,"text":"還是你把海淡廠也算進去?如果現在每天有10萬噸的餘裕的時候我們還要蓋海淡廠幹什麼?那新竹未來持續會發展啊所以你說現在我們每天就有餘裕10萬噸的水你把資料給我因為如果這樣的話我們新竹市海淡廠不用蓋因為現在海淡廠在蓋的時候坦白說地方也有很多不同的雜音因為跟地方的溝通其實不是很成熟所以也有很多地方的人士在反彈"},{"start":27847.326,"end":27876.133,"text":"針對這個部分的時候我們水利署這邊有沒有具體的做法第一個我們針對於海放的部分包括取水的部分我們會確實依照環評的要求除此之外對於沿線的管路的這個開挖的部分我們跟市政府已經做好合作那至於說對於漁民的這個部分對於海域的這個保育我們也跟漁民做相對的溝通所以我們在海淡廠的這個工程的計畫包括"},{"start":27877.073,"end":27879.335,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27897.745,"end":27898.967,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案"},{"start":27917.127,"end":27932.933,"text":"主要是由縣市提報出來,如果提報比較低的時候,我們會再去跟他們了解一下。針對這部分,新竹只有兩家,是不是還有其他家有在申請?目前在申請是不是還可以爭取後續的部分?"},{"start":27934.353,"end":27934.614,"text":"王一鳴委員"},{"start":27962.275,"end":27963.497,"text":"交通部務次長"},{"start":27975.422,"end":27988.909,"text":"市長好,市長我今天要問你是有關於嘉義縣市鐵路高架化的這個延伸計畫那目前在前瞻裡面呢總金額它是173.48億到113年7月底為止它的分配數是1.55億執行0.55億執行率是35.48%那為什麼這個執行率現在只有3乘5"},{"start":28002.649,"end":28024.862,"text":"剛剛講的是那個我們的延伸就是延伸民雄這部分嗎?對它前面大概招標有點delay啦那後面大概我們可以掌握到明年可以主理標的開工因為這一個整個計畫是2028年要全面完工喔?對那目前你這個進度看起來是落後的你可以2028順利完工嗎?可以,沒問題打包票齁?是"},{"start":28027.864,"end":28050.305,"text":"好,那另外一個我要問的就是除了民雄這段的高價化之外通往嘉義市然後再往下走的水上水上這一段其實它也需要鐵路高價化但是呢之前好幾次都被你們交通部打回票但是李孟彥部長呢他在8月份的時候有到現場去看過"},{"start":28052.327,"end":28066.519,"text":"那他當場開會的時候他要允諾要重啟這個高價化的評估方案我上次也問過了這個我們現在的部長陳部長那他又允諾回去要討論那目前這個案子你們的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":28068.164,"end":28087.527,"text":"現在我們所了解因為這部分是要由現在縣政府要提出來的有縣長也說他要提出來對,這部分我們會來協助他好,那這個部分因為他涉及到重啟評估的這個費用還蠻高的這個部分是不是交通部你們在前瞻的預算裡面也可以著於補助"},{"start":28088.247,"end":28113.788,"text":"我跟委員報告因為過去他大平台也好這個大概都有補助過不過我想我們對我們的權利來支持啦我們會討論一下我希望這個次長你這一部分來協助因為嘉義縣是財政困難的縣市但是他現在有遇到一個契機就是台積電要進駐所以他整個的發展是起飛的包括人口我相信未來也會成長所以在交通方面的需求很大你們陳部長上個禮拜到這個嘉義市"},{"start":28116.63,"end":28117.891,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":28147.104,"end":28163.594,"text":"周市長,你們前瞻裡面衛福部的整個長照計畫執行率不好看你自己應該看到這個數字,平均下來大概只有五成為什麼執行率那麼差?特別是像社家署有3900萬的預算,其實才花了200多萬"},{"start":28167.196,"end":28171.858,"text":"主要有一些的工程修繕或者是建設的這部分的話那因為說在這裡面的這裡面的成本不斷的增加所以有時候會流標"},{"start":28183.542,"end":28185.123,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":28206.254,"end":28226.578,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":28226.638,"end":28250.565,"text":"但是顯然你們現在補助給地方政府還有地方政府自己編列的預算執行下來其實是不夠用的就服務的量能其實是不足的那這一塊我覺得有改善的空間你們目前編在前瞻這邊的預算通通都是硬體還是有一部分可以拿來譬如說添購車輛這個算不算是你們可以去提供的"},{"start":28250.985,"end":28266.401,"text":"跟委員報告一下這部分如果有經常人的預算的部分我們來處理那如果沒有的話我們尋求其他的財源來提供民眾這部分的需求好,我要跟你講的是嘉義縣他現在老年人口比例老化的程度是全國第一名了是"},{"start":28266.741,"end":28294.095,"text":"就是它將近快23%了所以它的確它的那個服務量能需求非常的高但是嘉義縣財政是列在第5級又是一個財政比較困難的一個縣市所以這個部分我希望這個衛福部回去之後你們調整一下就是主動去關心一下嘉義縣他們這個長照看起來這個量能是不夠的交通方面因為它有18個鄉鎮市所以它幅員非常大那交通的部分我希望在交通車方面這個服務量能"},{"start":28296.076,"end":28310.587,"text":"這個我相信衛福部一定有資源我們全力來協助嘉義縣改善他們偏鄉這個長照交通量能不足的問題好不好這部分我們會來特別關心他們好 謝謝市長 謝謝謝謝王一鳴委員好 接下來我們請陳玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":28327.134,"end":28332.918,"text":"謝謝主席 有請速發部黃部長跟農業部好 我們請速發部跟農業部上台"},{"start":28345.128,"end":28365.455,"text":"部長,你們速發布113年補助中華電信到今年第3季為止補助了中華電信及它的網路技術分公司23億多萬我想請問你記不記得在今年5月份的時候有電視台的名嘴在電視上公開說他們發現"},{"start":28368.976,"end":28388.571,"text":"按照手機訊號分析指出他們發現在青島東路的這個小草跟在凱達格蘭大道的這個民眾還有跟那時候在這個青鳥在這個立法院外面那些青鳥按照訊號的比對是不同的人你記得有這段嗎?你記得這件事情嗎?記得嗎?你要說上面的齁"},{"start":28394.447,"end":28398.349,"text":"那時候就爆發了這個政府應該說電信公司用手機監控民眾的疑慮那時候速發部曾經說技術上的確可能應用手機訊號分析用戶的個人資料"},{"start":28416.235,"end":28438.09,"text":"但是呢這個需要兩個資料就是一個基地台的服務的用戶號碼還有電信事業客戶資料庫用來分析特定區域用戶來但是一般民眾呢拿到這兩同時拿到這兩個一般的民眾跟一般的公司同時拿到這些資料的可能性極低對不對這是你們那時候的回覆對不對"},{"start":28441.032,"end":28465.902,"text":"對,需要有法律的依均,這個是在各自保護裡面,所以辦案是,這是在各自保護裡頭嘛,但是有名嘴公開在電視講說有這樣的事情那我請問啦,蘇發部,你們一年補助這麼多預算,好像補助電信的三大業者齁但是呢,你們任由他們來監控人民齁,那後來認為怎麼樣?中央第一說沒有,他們沒有監控人民對不對?他們就有說他們沒有這樣做對不對?"},{"start":28468.193,"end":28490.022,"text":"報告委員我們補助主要是補助像5G的建設對我知道我知道我知道嘛我們政府當然是補助各個5G建設基地各方面偏鄉我知道這些我都知道齁這個等一下我來問你但是呢你們在補助這些業者的同時你們看他們在做這些監督監控民眾手機訊號信息有做出調查嗎"},{"start":28493.147,"end":28495.088,"text":"報導委員通信監察是NCC在主管"},{"start":28522.086,"end":28547.955,"text":"你們奉勸這些業者一方面領我們的錢是來自國家領我們國家的錢同時來監控人民我們補助是基地站不是在後面的基地我知道你們補助基地站就是我下台所以我要說這個事情的發生是很嚴重的事情我希望你們趕快也給我一個報告你們知道的部分因為你們給人家錢嘛我懷疑他們會不會就是用你們補助的錢從中謀用去啊也有可能啊對不對"},{"start":28549.176,"end":28558.796,"text":"一個禮拜內給我報告這個事件的報告那當然你們的這個補助你說這個偏鄉地區的這個部分你看請問你們有沒有補助我們今天的政法電信"},{"start":28559.875,"end":28586.209,"text":"平鄉的補助就是在我們這個是對一般有沒有補助金門金門算是偏遠地區嗎金門應該金門有有嘛但是我們金門的民眾抱怨很多抱怨很多我這裡有很多資料給你沒有訊號啦什麼卡卡的啊什麼非常多常常斷訊啊報告委員我們在今年的前瞻還會再加強還會再加強這個部分我要給我一個檢討民眾的反應非常的多我請問農業"},{"start":28587.89,"end":28607.524,"text":"一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝農業部委員好農業部我想請問你我們金門有一個養牛場驗出一個牛節節診對不對對8月30號所以8月30號我知道所以你們就宣布為了確保整體產業安全公告暫停金門縣的牛隻生鮮冷凍冷藏牛肉運往台灣台灣島運往台灣島"},{"start":28610.426,"end":28636.672,"text":"報告委員 沒錯吧不是我們8月30號之後宣布目前在8月30號之前一直都不能讓它進來因為WOAH就是世界動物組織把台灣澎湖跟馬祖是我們是不施打疫苗的我知道昨天部長有跟我講反正我們金門跟你不同國我知道台灣金門馬祖跟你一國金門的這個施打疫苗沒有落實我先問你一件事情"},{"start":28637.432,"end":28639.373,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":28653.597,"end":28680.268,"text":"為什麼?日本?什麼意思?WOH是這樣規定的,那叫做骨骼肌,骨骼肌本來就是可以進來,因為日本也是沒有打。日本也是牛結節診陽性,我們也是牛結節診陽性。沒有錯,可是他們也是WOH宣布的跟我們台灣、澎湖跟馬來西亞一樣的。所以是WOH告訴你說日本可以進來台灣,然後我們基本不能進來台灣喔?"},{"start":28681.028,"end":28681.789,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫"},{"start":28699.288,"end":28701.151,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期"},{"start":28717.349,"end":28737.636,"text":"一國兩制喔?不是一國兩制是因為金門沒有落實施打疫苗所以它到現在抗體不足所以我們怕它的不管是我們的這個口蹄疫或是鳥結節症會影響到台灣我們好不容易已經變成清靜我告訴你你們給我回答也不只是這樣子你們還說因為我們跟中國大陸距離很近"},{"start":28738.536,"end":28739.377,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":28761.838,"end":28762.839,"text":"我希望你是不是還要提出"},{"start":28789.155,"end":28809.409,"text":"還是還是提出還是提出這種就是有沒有什麼方式防疫的部分來幫助金門因為我們你說我們跟大陸很近這也不是我的願意這個地理位置就在那裡所以除了撲殺消毒打疫苗還有跟我們一些提出一些對策好嗎對這個部分請你們協助可以多多支持"},{"start":28810.549,"end":28811.31,"text":"接下來我們請葛如君委員質詢"},{"start":28856.189,"end":28861.431,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請速發部部長跟警政署副署長備詢黃副 副署長換一個 陳副署長"},{"start":28874.575,"end":28898.715,"text":"社群平台臉書11月15日深夜下架很多無辜的正版的財經網紅的粉絲專頁截至昨天為止我們目前都還沒有辦法知道真相速發部案警政署某種程度各說各話那有很多人民眾在批評這些提供服務的平台在這個平台上面罵平台但沒有關係總之有民眾受害了有網紅受害了"},{"start":28899.575,"end":28911.689,"text":"蘇發部黃部長、警政署詹副署長兩位是不是能夠先向無辜受害的民眾表示歉意?我們對這事情覺得不應該讓它發生因為這個是據我們兩邊的了解我們去調查結果是臉書在作業的時候他們內部的錯誤造成的"},{"start":28918.536,"end":28920.097,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":28950.749,"end":28972.244,"text":"副主長,我待會兒有機會讓您說明,你有沒有要表達歉意啊?我待會兒還會問啊。這個正如剛剛部長說的,這是META它本身內部篩選基礎的根基。兩位真的是要面對啦,我想至少部長要表達遺憾,但是我想請問我國廣告平台業務跟平台經濟的主管機關是哪一個部會?"},{"start":28974.085,"end":28995.023,"text":"廣告平台業務、數位經濟、平台經濟我們就是負責那幾個廣告平台的打詐工程下架、下對、下錯不是打詐了一碗嗎?你們的網詐通查網裡面就有提供下架通報的服務嗎?"},{"start":28997.386,"end":28999.008,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29023.17,"end":29048.799,"text":"不只是廣告啦第一你們有下架粉專啦這個網路上都有訊息我的部落格都可以傳給你看平台經濟也是屬於你們所以呢這次警政署聯繫Meta因為現在網路上有訊息嘛通知說這個有用戶收到這個就恢復了以後臉書傳給他的訊息是說警政署刑事調查局的法律要求"},{"start":29049.719,"end":29067.971,"text":"警政署有沒有聯繫META?是直接聯繫還是透過主管機關聯繫?報告委員,我想我們警政署是有提供一些涉及詐騙的粉絲專業請問所以有聯繫嗎?你們是直接聯繫還是透過主管機關聯繫?有沒有自衛速發部?我們警政署本身跟META有一個聯繫的機制"},{"start":29070.663,"end":29096.57,"text":"但是這次下架不在我們通報的名單裡你看很好玩啦現在警政署也說這個名單跟我們無關速發部也說跟名單無關然後你們每一個部會都要自己來聯繫Meta如果我是平台業者我到底要如何處理呢我想這個速發部部長您也理解嘛這種上下架的這種事情平台業者收到了可能還要跟你們double check要雙項查核甚至三項查核嘛"},{"start":29097.87,"end":29123.616,"text":"不能這樣子訊息過去就直接下架這一次把正版粉專下架不管你是要推脫責任、表達遺憾還是道歉了事都可以但政府還是要負起責任請問這一次警政署或者是之前警政署你們這一次的粉專跟你們無關那為什麼有這樣的一個訊息呢?這個訊息是造假的嗎?是深偽嗎?是駭客入侵嗎?警政署要不要調查?有沒有人冒用你們的名字?"},{"start":29125.439,"end":29132.919,"text":"當然如果有犯罪先例我們警政署都會請教這已經不是如果啦網紅截圖啊他被下架之後收到這個通知啊"},{"start":29134.113,"end":29158.67,"text":"你們有沒有反應?這不是如果啊!這不是如果!這個我們有跟Meta聯絡Meta是他們他回應什麼?就是他下下不是我們通報的資料那這Meta他們夠力以後是他們篩選我現在不好意思副署長我問的是這個訊息真訊息、假訊息、偽造訊息還是駭客入侵?要不要調查?這不是如果啊!已經發生啦!"},{"start":29164.301,"end":29167.182,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":29189.673,"end":29212.202,"text":"訴發部應該要肩負起訴政府部會跟平台業者溝通協調的責任所有部會其實也不只是警政署其實還有其他部會包含可能像經管會還有更多的部會其實都在跟這些平台業者聯繫那平台業者要如何查核你3個部會來3個名單4個部會來4個名單也有可能會讓他搞錯"},{"start":29216.424,"end":29240.378,"text":"他搞錯當然他要負責但是我們政府不用負責有一個完整的溝通管道嗎?出發部部長能不能有一個統合的一個機制去扮演業者跟政府之間的這種溝通的角色我們可以包含那個委員我們有個打炸的指揮中心那打炸指揮中心的那個就是有那個來總統一來做部會之間的協調所以以後這種東西我們會協調"},{"start":29241.559,"end":29262.377,"text":"那中心的負責應該是?打造指揮中心是由院長主持現在踢到院長這邊去那所以院長要出來負責喔?不是,我是指揮中心是由院長主持那當然我們有其他的部會在裡面一起來協調速發部是主管平台業者尤其是這些平台經濟、數位廣告"},{"start":29264.238,"end":29293.658,"text":"我希望您可以在此承諾啦,未來如果有必要要封鎖帳號,希望各部會應該要有一個通盤的一個單一的這種聯繫,或者要在頁面上清楚標示,到底是哪個部會因為什麼原因要封鎖帳號,同時也應該要續名就記的管道,讓民眾有申訴的機會,政府內部也要有完整的記錄可供查詢,封鎖哪個帳號,什麼時候封鎖,為什麼要封鎖,內部可以記錄,你可以去識別化,但是應該要可以回溯可以查詢,"},{"start":29294.298,"end":29312.344,"text":"不然一件事情幾十個粉磚連政交所自己的粉磚都受害沒有人知道是誰的問題各說各話我們會協調那我們在內部會把這個效果做得更好最後不好意思主席再請財政部副會主宋署長下下不好意思"},{"start":29321.306,"end":29330.831,"text":"因為近期你們最近有宣布說要來課稅所以整個產業為之嘩然關於虛擬貨幣我想虛擬貨幣是一個新興的產業在之前你們才講了這就是你們想要做的事情"},{"start":29340.135,"end":29354.806,"text":"結果你們之前2024年3月20號才說比特幣沒有內在價值結果現在川普上任了比特幣大漲了破新高昨天晚上9萬4千美金你們現在就跑出來說要課稅了說它有價值了"},{"start":29355.986,"end":29384.007,"text":"這個做法對不對啊?您對於這個政府這樣的一個做法,你們同意嗎?我想啦,這個我想我節省一點時間,先告訴您喔,處長就我們所知啊,其實全世界各國,包含泰國,包含阿聯酋,包含瑞士,都有租稅優惠我們要有棍子跟蘿蔔,不要看到新興產業,就想棒打它兩下然後呢,看到有錢可以拿,就趕快來收錢,等到暴跌的時候又不管它"},{"start":29386.189,"end":29398.725,"text":"這個產業的振興跟我們的這種跟我們的這個民眾的這個不管是課稅也好這做法要並行啊不是不可以課稅但是要做到產業的鼓勵這個部分能不能請署長回去了解一下"},{"start":29399.68,"end":29426.062,"text":"我跟委員報告其實所謂虛擬通貨的部分如果它真的是貨幣的話基本上是沒有課稅的問題但是目前在台灣把虛擬貨幣的部分是定位成數位商品數位商品就是屬於一般的商品它的交易所得本來它的交易本來就有1、2稅的問題另外交易所得也會有所得稅的問題其實我們從頭到尾都是根據主管機關的相關法律來做相關的課稅規範我們並沒有改變過"},{"start":29428.064,"end":29444.571,"text":"好,我想齁,這個,你沒有改變過,你有改變啦齁,3月的時候你們說它沒有價值啦齁,沒關係,我想未來所有的政策推行之前希望做好社會溝通,三思而後行好不好,謝謝,謝謝主席。謝謝葛羅軍委員。接著我們請邱志偉委員。"},{"start":29458.789,"end":29486.037,"text":"主席你好我先講一下心裡面的話我先講一下心裡面的話我們兩個都是召委我在經濟委員會你在財政委員會我做召委對於發言時間管控我以身作則分秒不差時間到我一定停止質詢現在講就開始算時間了嗎沒 等一下嘛我覺得遵守發言質詢時間是一個國務院基本的素質"},{"start":29487.595,"end":29492.316,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":29518.134,"end":29542.989,"text":"好,還有嗎?我們尊重每位委員的發言我4分鐘,一定是很準時第一個問題請國發會,是國發會哪位?國發會,詹副主委喔還有呢?我沒有說還有,就國發會而已啊好,國發會喔,謝謝不過我一起叫比較快我一定很準時,分秒不差我做給你看剛剛要扣1分鐘嗎?"},{"start":29547.892,"end":29564.966,"text":"這個國發會對前期的這個前瞻計畫第三期進度有落後第四期的執行率也沒有達到很好的情況這部分我希望說國發會你做一個主管做一個控管你相關計畫的執行你要跟各部會去協調"},{"start":29566.516,"end":29567.517,"text":"第二問題來交通部交通部就是五次長喔"},{"start":29594.694,"end":29607.025,"text":"市長,這個前瞻的經費在過去8年的軌道建設大概負擔了40%38%左右那未來還有很多的軌道建設需要很多經費"},{"start":29608.581,"end":29626.354,"text":"你如果按照一般的這個年度的預算各部分的預算沒有辦法去適應這些龐大的這個軌道建設所以我期待是不是你可以續推所謂3.0或者類前瞻的計畫來針對未來要執行的重大軌道建設讓這個預算能夠得到這個確實"},{"start":29630.236,"end":29655.652,"text":"不然你很多計畫提出來你用年度預算是沒有辦法支應的先是政府的財源有限一定要內前瞻計畫或者前瞻3.0您的看法如何?跟委員報告我想前瞻建設計畫裡面包括不只有軌道那這部分其實我覺得應該不是只有江部可以去做決定我們大概會配合我是針對軌道建設的部分啦對,但是這裡面剛講的"},{"start":29656.693,"end":29679.945,"text":"前瞻的部分就不只是只有軌道的部分包括其他的我說的是關於前瞻裡面軌道建設的部分後面有很多新興計畫你如果這個前瞻計畫的裡面軌道建設沒有後續的經費來源那你很難去去完成後續的計畫這個我希望說你再去跟陳部長再好好討論一下這個我在交通委員會我也質詢過了另外凱米颱風啊"},{"start":29684.434,"end":29713.44,"text":"造成輪船擱淺有5個船惡意棄之交通部是先墊前後追討這個部分你們怎麼處理這個應該沒問題我們後面剛剛講的一開始當然找船東嘛那包括那個保險公司那如果沒有就由我們來處理那這部分我們跟他追查好這個部分提出這個問題讓你們去注意好最後一個問題請文化部"},{"start":29715.18,"end":29718.426,"text":"請文化部李部長部長你邊走我邊講"},{"start":29723.151,"end":29744.973,"text":"文化資產這個修復這個各縣市都有這個預算需求但是每年的預算有限所以每年的案各縣市都有這個需求當然預算那麼的少我希望說你在明年度的計畫能夠多撥補一些滿足這些這個文化資產修復預算的這些預算缺口"},{"start":29747.056,"end":29747.176,"text":"羅廷偉委員"},{"start":29773.375,"end":29775.076,"text":"你們都欠台中市一千多億啊"},{"start":29802.202,"end":29819.786,"text":"前瞻預算補高雄1200多億台中市拿到了228億今天我要來討個公道我從上任至今不斷地在關心水環境清水建設前瞻預算我要問一下次長您知道我關心哪個區塊嗎有所耳聞嗎還是要別人救你"},{"start":29826.653,"end":29854.19,"text":"就是上次去那個會刊的那一條我們不只會刊過總諮詢的時候經濟組我也講過漢溪還有柳川四期我們先看一下城市因河流而偉大而我們現在看到編列的前瞻預算我要請問一下在這一次不管是水與安全相關的水建設請問一下次長在這一次我們台中漢溪有沒有去列入到相關的前瞻建設預算"},{"start":29858.588,"end":29878.929,"text":"我們在第5期預算就是這一次的預算我們會把它列進來確定柳川你旁邊那一位確定喔會啟動我們會再來啟動這個就是一個評估的一個差很多啊你剛剛跟我講說會列入現在跟我講說會評估"},{"start":29882.809,"end":29908.169,"text":"市長講清楚說明白因為我們是希望就是說地方政府這邊能夠來提出來之後我們這邊再來做審查是地方現在柳川3期已經完成了柳川4期有提出計畫那我想問一下柳川4期有沒有前瞻預算有沒有編列柳川4期要繼續做建設好"},{"start":29909.222,"end":29929.695,"text":"你剛剛說地方政府要提出計畫嗎?因為這個預算事實上是有限我們是一個全國性競爭的計畫所以我們也會考量到各個地方政府所提出來的計畫的急迫性所以剛剛你跟我講說地方政府要提出計畫,提了嘛"},{"start":29930.896,"end":29934.72,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":29950.145,"end":29967.262,"text":"韓西的話應該是原來是市府啦市府管轄不要說原來現在現在的話就是我們這個水利署這邊可以來對啊所以如果現在漢西呢漢西本來就是你們自己提計畫自己去做建設啊怎麼會跟市政府有關呢"},{"start":29968.683,"end":29997.337,"text":"所以我希望次長我已經多次提出找你們的國會聯絡人也一直表明了我對於水環境我非常積極尤其漢溪在我選區的東區柳川現在來到了南區一期、二期、三期做得很好四期市政府也提出了計畫我呼籲經濟部應該要關注台中市的前瞻預算拿到的分配比例已經少於很多縣市了"},{"start":29998.197,"end":30019.758,"text":"可不可以多關注一下台中?市長你可以給我承諾嗎?可以,我們跟台中市政府這邊再來做討論柳川市期我可以麻煩你跟市政府討論市政府提出計畫你可以去輔導沒關係但旱溪我希望你們能夠主動提出計畫主動去協助旱溪來做整治這個部分您做得到嗎?"},{"start":30021.235,"end":30043.22,"text":"我們再來做研究幾個月可以給我回應等預算通過之後我們是不是三個月之內給上次我們還辦了一次會刊你也知道啦當時有承諾我們三至五百萬說要告訴我們要去做一些相關的部署去做規劃請問做了嗎那個漢西的部分"},{"start":30051.471,"end":30070.26,"text":"市長,我要跟你講,河川局要稍微注意一下。我們當天所做的承諾將副院長也在現場。大家都劃壓了準備等待你們的預算到位了。結果呢,最近我們接到通知說沒錢了。"},{"start":30071.929,"end":30096.234,"text":"答應我們的事情突然說沒有要等明年那你當下答應什麼所以我們很納悶嘛為什麼承諾的預算已經要到位的預算要逐步發包去施行的預算突如其來告訴我沒有了那你為什麼要承諾江副院長也在呢那不是讓我們都丟臉嗎我還是要呼籲啊次長我很關注"},{"start":30097.321,"end":30103.784,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":30123.783,"end":30131.077,"text":"一個報告,我不要報告,我要建設,我要看到的建設。好,我們希望能夠來支持。是。好,謝謝趙委員。好,謝謝謝偉。謝謝劉廷偉委員。"},{"start":30136.482,"end":30156.081,"text":"我們這個剩下登記發言委員大概還剩18位那其中已經有一些委員提出書面質詢所以我們今天本來是開到5點半我們就讓所有的這個委員詢答完畢以後我們再這個休息那如果今天詢答完畢明天就可以今天就可以上會就明天就不用過來接著我們請盧縣議委員"},{"start":30164.961,"end":30169.425,"text":"主席,我請原民會、經濟部、內政部、經濟部何市長、內政部董事長主委好"},{"start":30186.394,"end":30186.514,"text":"主席"},{"start":30203.471,"end":30213.158,"text":"不論營造是2億4千6百萬這是沒有什麼大問題不過我們比較多的編載原住民族多元產業發展2.0這個部分它的5年計畫的成果報告並沒有如實的呈現"},{"start":30221.789,"end":30233.131,"text":"也就是說113年你預期增加原住民的收入是3萬1千塊然後有55萬人來增加消費那確實有這樣的一個成果嗎?"},{"start":30234.261,"end":30254.749,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個產業2.0是從114年才開始所以它的機會會比部落營造多一點因為也是最後一期我希望主委能夠去研究一下確實有沒有達到這個效果"},{"start":30255.68,"end":30266.713,"text":"因為這個請比剛才所謂的部落營造多了一倍可是它這個成果如果說你沒有這個三萬一千塊的話你要怎麼辦?你要怎麼改進?"},{"start":30268.885,"end":30293.855,"text":"我們會檢討啦,我們會檢討,我們看這個希望今年做下去,讓我們的這個事後之變...你的意思是說我們看不出這個計畫的相關效益跟具體成果所以希望我們一周內能夠看到你的成果報告好不好?好下一個就是原民會這邊還有一個我們剛才就針對那個計畫你的專案辦公室的專案成員是誰?得標執行的公司是誰?考核機制是什麼?你可以簡單的告訴我嗎?"},{"start":30297.243,"end":30297.603,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫"},{"start":30313.005,"end":30335.856,"text":"其中期末的報告,然後我們也希望它像一些比較大的這個...那我們所有原住民的立委可以拿到你的所謂的檢討報告嗎?可以。OK,那我等喔。接下來就是我們還有8400萬的那個加速推動低幫創生計畫在明年沒有看到你們的編列,那你們要怎麼來繼續推動我們的創生計畫?"},{"start":30337.637,"end":30337.798,"text":"主席"},{"start":30346.089,"end":30367.448,"text":"政經部關於我們原住民地區地熱的部分我們漁、花、冬都有地熱不過我希望有一個叫做原住民地區參與再生能源設置補助作業要點這個部分希望我們原住民是主體廠商只是合作的一個角色希望這個作業要點能夠再通盤檢討好不好"},{"start":30368.319,"end":30371.681,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":30394.605,"end":30399.849,"text":"微型電網內政部臺東延平鄉代表會目前已經建物43年提出很多次修建或改建計畫希望內政部能夠支持"},{"start":30417.13,"end":30417.591,"text":"吳春晨委員"},{"start":30451.779,"end":30468.172,"text":"請國發會副主委還有其他的也一起上來吧今天前瞻預算是國發會的主管業務主委又沒來所以是不是其他的一起上來吧有預算的嗎"},{"start":30470.885,"end":30472.966,"text":"我們前瞻預算建設預算8400億要花完了嘛 對不對那我要請問我們前瞻了嗎?"},{"start":30500.908,"end":30526.642,"text":"聽了一整天,大家感覺都還是錢不夠、人不夠、什麼都不夠。這個到底要多少錢?這是一個潮流嗎?政府越來越臃腫、越來越肥大,後來很多需要的都被自己吃掉。真正國家的發展目標達到了嗎?"},{"start":30528.137,"end":30537.507,"text":"最近川普宣布要成立政府效率部,有馬斯克他還號稱要把428個聯邦機構砍到剩下99個,消減率達到77%那我們呢?我們還要再更多嗎?"},{"start":30549.851,"end":30568.14,"text":"這個方向應該要值得國發會好好研究一下你們是負責國家發展的方向如果國家發展方向完全沒有策略就是這樣子沒完沒了的那國發會大概可以廢掉了"},{"start":30570.276,"end":30597.203,"text":"最重要的事情未來30年就是這件事情國發會最了解你們10月17號也宣布公布了公布台灣未來人口要減少將近1000萬人50年各部會看見了嗎?我們的人口從金字塔變成到金字塔叫天翻地覆在整個的前瞻前瞻不是要看這個事情嗎?"},{"start":30598.303,"end":30609.319,"text":"整個前瞻計畫裡面幾乎沒有看到這個東西沒有人在為這個國家未來發展的方向在做準備都還在混在眼前 眼前都不夠用"},{"start":30612.165,"end":30626.034,"text":"這件事情會衝擊台灣所謂的四大衝擊教育的衝擊教育的大學生未來會剩下目前的三分之一教育部有沒有在準備國防的衝擊減少這樣剩下30%我們的兵力社福的衝擊達到56%經濟的衝擊幾乎全面性的衝擊我在這些預算當中都沒有看到這些東西"},{"start":30638.166,"end":30655.066,"text":"閉著眼睛還有跟鄉鎮有關的提了一大堆的地方建設預測全台有三分之的鄉鎮會被消滅我不曉得前瞻計畫跟這些事情有什麼關係好像大家都沒看到"},{"start":30658.012,"end":30667.249,"text":"倒數42天,台灣進入超高齡社會。各部會有關於超高齡社會的相關前瞻計畫嗎?"},{"start":30672.164,"end":30686.917,"text":"從這些目前又提出來的這個第5期的計畫裡面我請問這個國發會自行評估一下這5期的前瞻基礎建設計畫有達成原先對未來國家發展的設定目標嗎?請問一下"},{"start":30688.858,"end":30711.091,"text":"是,謝謝委員。那個我想前瞻計畫推動這些年來,其實它對於提升國人的生活品質,還有均衡台灣,譬如說一些偏鄉的照顧,還有我們一些經濟建設,譬如說有關半導體的研究,這個引進國際廠商等等,其實在這方面都有一些具體的成果。委員剛剛提到...等一下,OK,那我請問你給這個前瞻計畫打幾分?"},{"start":30714.546,"end":30714.726,"text":"主席"},{"start":30739.967,"end":30739.987,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":30760.927,"end":30773.697,"text":"禁制塔社會的思維在想這件事情這就是國家的災難整個國家的災難在這裡所有的部會完全沒有在看這件事情因為我的時間有限"},{"start":30775.367,"end":30793.715,"text":"好 有些部會都已經在響應我在倡討的壯世代這個就是最近諮詢業剛結束我在這裡但是沒時間請各位上台蘇發部蘇發部做了一個壯世代董資樂園出現了壯世代的人潮"},{"start":30794.295,"end":30798.018,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":30822.495,"end":30825.177,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":30842.278,"end":30843.979,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":30864.086,"end":30890.669,"text":"不要把這當作一種自為末節所以如果今年明年2025年台灣進入超高齡社會請問我們的行政院有給這樣做一個什麼回應有回應告訴我們國人進入超高齡社會我們要做什麼所以請各部會在這一次第5期的一個前瞻預算當中要把這個部分納入你的這個預算的編列裡面以上"},{"start":30892.406,"end":30892.687,"text":"黃珊珊委員"},{"start":30907.906,"end":30912.029,"text":"主席、財政部國庫署署長、內政部次長、工程會陳主委、消防署署長"},{"start":30939.306,"end":30946.641,"text":"主席長還有各位官員我想今天前瞻基礎建設其實是所謂的計畫性補助款主席長對吧"},{"start":30948.359,"end":30977.646,"text":"前瞻是不是所謂的計畫性補助款?不是特別預算的特別補助款中央補助地方政府很多的費用包括公有建築物的耐震改善重鋪道路、新建停車場、捷運建設、環境治水還有觀光建設內政部次長我想請問一下依照地方制度法你剛剛聽到的這些項目是不是地方制度法裡面地方自治的事項?有一些是大部分是"},{"start":30979.246,"end":30992.778,"text":"公有建築物的內政改善絕對不會是中央鷹館的事項嗎?所以前瞻計畫裡面所有幾乎都是地方政府應該做的事但是地方自治事項為什麼要中央來不住?因為地方沒有錢"},{"start":30995.831,"end":31020.473,"text":"有些事情是基於公共利益以及為了保障人民生命財產安全所以中央可以代行之所以我的理解也就是說地方政府本來就該做的事但是地方政府沒有錢所以中央很好心還去借錢借了8400億的前瞻預算來給地方政府補助這個前瞻預算到現在為止有沒有違反所謂的事權分配原則"},{"start":31021.654,"end":31047.354,"text":"內政部你是地方自治的主管機關要跟委員報告根據憲法的說明本來地方唯有辦法執行事務中央可以代替協助而且最重要的事情是我們的目的是為了保障人民生命財產的安全尤其是像內政補強這部分本來我們就應該要協助我都知道但是可以在地方來主席講這中間就是很簡單嘛"},{"start":31048.715,"end":31065.48,"text":"我國的財政收支出了問題地方政府財源不足財政困難所以該做的事情由中央來補助就像剛剛次長所說的第一建築物補強竟然要中央補助重鋪道路要地方補助新建停車場要地方補助"},{"start":31066.52,"end":31086.449,"text":"這就是回到我們現在財政委員會要修的財政收支劃分法財政劃分法裡面讓所有的地方政府都財源不足所以對中央政府必須要為起聯展現中央的權威來由中央來分配相關的預算今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子所以主計長"},{"start":31087.409,"end":31114.483,"text":"我們在這裡已經問過很多次了你到底要多少錢是不影響中央正式運作又可以下放給地方的從這個前瞻預算就看得很清楚有這麼多錢其實本來就是地方該有的但是我們中央把錢全都掌握在手裡今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子主席長你到底算出來中央政府到底可以釋放多少垂直分配給地方政府了嗎你已經算了好幾個月了"},{"start":31115.331,"end":31115.972,"text":"財政部負責財政部負責"},{"start":31135.505,"end":31147.598,"text":"還有工程會的陳主委內政部的消防署署長我想請問一下避震跟海嘯的預警對你們的救災來說是不是很重要消防署"},{"start":31151.97,"end":31169.823,"text":"地震跟海嘯是我們事先要來處理的因為火災、損失跟躲避海嘯都是消防署必須要做處理的現在交通部有一個交通部氣象署有一個海嵐建制計畫交通部次長請上台次長這個計畫多久了?從110年交商到現在你知道嗎?"},{"start":31180.764,"end":31200.97,"text":"110年招標到現在留標了10次由氣象署的地震中心他們已經招標了10次都留標而且從原來的預算25億要做800公里6個觀測站一直修正到只做200公里3個觀測站經費從25億暴增到27億到今天為止還沒有標出去剛講"},{"start":31207.284,"end":31231.728,"text":"地震很重要、預警很重要、交通部這個案子這個海嵐線重不重要?市長你什麼都不知道是嗎?不是,我跟委員報告,那個剛講的,因為這個廠商相對廠商的專業性的部分比較少啦。是!那流標,然後大概會比較多。你110年到113年,3年了。第二個,來我今天特別請工程會的陳竺瑞。你知道這個計畫嗎?"},{"start":31237.843,"end":31263.132,"text":"他從25億800公里的6座觀測站修正到200公里3座的觀測站金額從25億暴增到27億項目變少金額增加這個是減相發包嗎?減相發包是合法的吧?還是不合法?減相發包也是採購法裡面的一種方式所以我想請問一下交通部"},{"start":31264.625,"end":31285.169,"text":"檢像發包、修正、修正、再修正十次流標到今天為止如果今年沒有再標出去的話這個案子就要第一年的預算就要被收回了我想問一下中華民國政府對於這座海底的相關的這些電纜線我們的立場是什麼行政院還要不要這個計畫工程會會去協助檢討它的發包方式"},{"start":31288.922,"end":31314.058,"text":"所以工程會會協助已經3年多修正了兩次我要跟交通部說了一下因為我們跟地政中心我覺得他們也很可憐啊他們沒有多少人要做這麼大的計畫氣象署總共的預算才26億他要執行這個20他自己的預算才26億他一個單位要執行這麼多的預算然後全世界沒有幾家在做所有的廠商都是拿去做"},{"start":31315.811,"end":31318.392,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":31337.284,"end":31364.209,"text":"交通部是托我們來檢討不是檢討到年底就要最後一次投標沒有投的話你的錢就要第一年的錢就會被註銷了接下去要怎麼辦我想因為剛剛提到的主要是做這個做這個工程的該花的錢要花不該花的錢不要亂花這個重要的事情擺在那邊擺了流標10次是很離譜的事好不好"},{"start":31365.149,"end":31393.632,"text":"地震中心很認真但他們做不到交通部、工程會還有甚至我希望今天在座的國科會一起來幫忙甚至這些海底電纜對台灣還有國家安全的影響甚至國防部是不是也要來參加好嗎交通部你可以做到一個月之內把這件事情的來龍去脈搞清楚第二個請工程會協助第三個幫忙地震中心爭取更多的預算不然就是把整個計畫重新做檢討可以嗎"},{"start":31394.281,"end":31398.105,"text":"林淑芬、林淑芬、林淑芬、林淑芬委員不在、廖偉祥、廖偉祥、廖偉祥委員不在、林俊憲委員"},{"start":31430.816,"end":31431.357,"text":"國土署吳署長"},{"start":31446.572,"end":31446.592,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":31469.697,"end":31486.512,"text":"提早下平面,所以大大降低了國八的運輸效率和能量,所以現在把國八的高價延長,延長到國八去接觸到台江大道,然後呢,當你車子要往台江大道走的時候啊,"},{"start":31487.614,"end":31498.63,"text":"台南市政府想提出一個計畫就是讓台江大道能夠快速化那怎麼個快速化呢?就是台江大道它接觸到了幾個重要路口"},{"start":31499.697,"end":31520.606,"text":"像海淀路、北上海大道、台17路的時候,台江大道我們把它立體化了就是說它不是在平面跟剛才這幾條台17、北上海或海淀路來接觸"},{"start":31524.616,"end":31525.256,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":31541.265,"end":31561.362,"text":"這條道路,我不知道國土署的看法呢?應該這麼說啦,因為台江大道它的確第一個它寬度夠寬,所以大家習慣,就變成酒瓶的住宅區、商業區非常少,所以大家習慣越開越快,所以回去就是說車速都走很快,所以比較有車好,變成習慣開快之後,如果車上停車不想走,就衝過去嘛。"},{"start":31568.228,"end":31597.558,"text":"所以他可能的做法應該如果不是追求因為全線如果高架快速化的話可能就是比較適合申請快速道路系統但是如果是局部的路口要做高架的話那就可以類似大概是有點像臺中的這個臺灣大道的概念就是說有部分是高架化就部分車道高架化部分車道高架化的做法"},{"start":31598.078,"end":31626.748,"text":"那這個就是請市府再送一個評估的報告給我們齁我們再來研議看看它是否適合放入生活圈或其他的計畫裡面我會了解啦,台南市政府根本就是有這個計畫啦是就像我們說的那個局部高架啦是所以應該叫做快速化啦對你說台江大道不是快速道路啦是它是快速化對所以台江大道快速化就是那個我剛才說的那個整個中央路口齁是那個局部高架啦"},{"start":31627.168,"end":31654.396,"text":"是,其實它可以從頭到尾,就是對於那個,對於我們檢測區域,起點開始起省,看是不是評估看看,是不是有幾個入口適合是這樣子的。一般政府三個路口啦,台江大道,台江大道到海田路,到白山尾路,到濱海,到17所,這三個所在啦。是。那這三,那這樣的話國土署的話可以,可以提出,提出,可以把它納入你們的計畫嗎?"},{"start":31656.231,"end":31683.068,"text":"應該這麼說就是他如果評估出來因為最主要是他要能夠符合生活圈的計畫目前的前瞻因為執行期限比較短那其他的部分可能就是列入這一種固定的計畫裡面讓我們再來評估看他適合放到哪一類的計畫去做改善我希望國土署能夠支持這個我們會來協助我們會來合作好感謝署長謝謝主席"},{"start":31685.87,"end":31687.931,"text":"蘇緣之委員提出書面質詢徐曉欣不在 鍾嘉斌不在"},{"start":31706.557,"end":31719.447,"text":"脈玉珍委員 脈玉珍、脈玉珍、脈玉珍不在。蘇清賢委員提出書面質詢。張家俊委員提出書面質詢。徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈不在。黃國昌委員謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請組長。好,陳組長。"},{"start":31743.38,"end":31770.651,"text":"委員好主計長好因為我們這個會期是預算會期所以我覺得立法委員在審預算的時候我們要負責任就要清楚地看那個預算書他只是說我最近看這個預算書我是越看越困惑什麼叫越看越困惑我相信這個預算書編列的內容跟方式主計長應該都很熟啦您從地方政府一路到中央政府"},{"start":31771.531,"end":31798.184,"text":"旁邊有計畫的用途後面有說明然後說明會更具體的講說這個錢到底要花到什麼地方去嗎但我的問題來我有什麼問題我的問題是我花那麼多的時間在拜讀你們所編出來的預算書啊讓我覺得陷入迷惘我預算書看這麼認真有何意義啊"},{"start":31799.458,"end":31817.66,"text":"為什麼我說我預算書看這麼認真有何意義啊?因為我後來發現這根本是作文比賽我為什麼說這是作文比賽?因為我錢沒有花到我在說明的那個用途我後來發現好像也都沒有關係"},{"start":31819.431,"end":31836.389,"text":"我為什麼說我看了預算書看了半天以後我發現我在浪費生命看錯文因為後面怎麼寫一點都不重要立法院通過預算以後啊我愛怎麼花就怎麼花後面那些文字啊"},{"start":31837.338,"end":31864.386,"text":"我不好意思講是廢話但沒有辦法發揮規範功能那我今天提出了這樣的問題我就一定要舉證嘛其實我今天下午在未還委員會我針對有關於啊這一次發生的不幸事件那位分署長的事情提出質詢的時候我順便就質詢啊他端午節送禮過年送禮"},{"start":31866.724,"end":31881.854,"text":"中秋節送禮他可以從救安基金可以從救保基金從一些莫名其妙的預算科目甚至連在做廣告、做媒體的錢他全部都可以挪來買禮品"},{"start":31885.356,"end":31911.838,"text":"去做他個人的關係我看了瞠目結舌啊那沒有關係今天勞動部部長答應我兩個禮拜他會做調查報告出來我等到調查報告出來了以後到底是浪費公帑移送法辦還是合法雲芝查汙不法我等到勞動部的調查報告出來以後我會再具體的請教主計長"},{"start":31912.984,"end":31935.686,"text":"但我今天要舉證的項目是什麼來看一下我在看這些計畫內容的時候我以前一直在追原民會的主委你哪裡來一百多萬啊去出你個人的寫真集我就去找預算書啊錢哪裡來的啊今天我來請主計長仔細看一下齁他說"},{"start":31936.912,"end":31947.68,"text":"我要推動原住民族政策法規內容有三項一個是要收集整理原住民族相關政策施政計畫97萬6第二個項目本會施政方針施政計畫及業務工作報告彙整編5萬"},{"start":31954.127,"end":31983.206,"text":"第三個項目推動原住民族政策及法規編室外我想要第一個請教主記長的是他在內容寫這樣的內容這個內容是參考用還是裝飾用還是要限定你就要做這件事情來請教主記長這個主要是針對他的一個業務的一個需求去做一個敘述然後這個整個也配合他的一個計畫所以他花錢要不要受到"},{"start":31984.381,"end":31991.331,"text":"這個限制那這個部分就是必須要跟他計畫的內容相關那如果內容不相關呢?"},{"start":31993.252,"end":32021.65,"text":"內容不相關因為一般我們的預算的用途別他有雲枝的一個相關的規定不好意思你講大聲一點我聽起來有點吃力不過真的不好意思再麻煩主席長因為我們預算用途別也有雲枝的一個相關的規定所以這個部分大概就是如果對我了解雲枝的規定嘛但我給主席長看一下這個雲層什麼樣子我剛說他花145萬出個人寫真集沒有冤枉他啦"},{"start":32022.83,"end":32029.879,"text":"有很多人說他已經下台了下台不要追究對不起啊這個觀念我無法接受"},{"start":32031.343,"end":32057.353,"text":"他下台了以後之前幹的事情都不用追究那以後大家有樣學樣大家都這樣幹就可以了嘛原民會主委可以出個人寫真集我速發部部長也長得很帥啊我也可以出個人寫真集啊沒有寫在預算書裡面不要擔心我可以找得出錢怎麼找得出錢我秀給主計長看來"},{"start":32059.612,"end":32085.524,"text":"結果他說要收集整理原住民相關政策97萬6全部拿去出寫真集本會施政方針5萬也全部拿去推動原住民族政策法規也全部拿去結果寫了三個不同的內容搞了半天花的時候是同一個用途就是幫主委出他個人歌功頌德的東西"},{"start":32087.16,"end":32109.08,"text":"結果還不夠 不夠也沒有關係我還有一個新的項目叫做辦理原住民族人口基礎庫規劃及建設研究連要辦理原住民族人口基礎資料庫的規劃及建設研究都可以撥38萬4去幫他出個人的寫真集這就是您剛剛所講的雲芝嘛"},{"start":32110.849,"end":32125.746,"text":"來 主席長可不可以告訴我們全體的立法委員我花這麼多時間看預算書到底有何意義我花這麼多時間看預算書有何意義這上面寫的東西我不好意思講是屁話啦"},{"start":32127.13,"end":32145.006,"text":"但趨近於廢話如果錢可以這樣花的話我認為我們在審預算書看這些內容毫無意義啊預算過了我愛怎麼花就怎麼花沒有任何的限制所以我想要今天特別請教不要說質詢我不敢質詢我請教你"},{"start":32148.973,"end":32168.173,"text":"我請教您是這到底合法還不合法如果搞得這麼誇張都合法那顯然我國的預算制度有重大的問題搞得這麼誇張如果最後的結論是合法請容我這樣講我國的預算制度有重大的問題"},{"start":32171.504,"end":32194.551,"text":"掛羊頭賣狗肉嘛先寫作文錢先騙到錢騙到以後我愛怎麼花就怎麼花沒有人管得了我啊來請主計長說明事實上呃這個部分是不是跟計畫原來計畫的用用沒有沒有那個我現在齁在預算書上面看到的文字啊請主計長您看一下"},{"start":32195.677,"end":32220.254,"text":"我是索諾罵罵完全照抄過來沒有多一個字沒有少一個字這個就是我們立法委員看到的嘛其他的東西我們看不到啊我最後只能去追蹤這個錢到底怎麼花嘛那我想要請教主計長的教一下我們這些全體的立委預算編成這樣結果最後花成這樣這到底合法不合法"},{"start":32222.462,"end":32237.039,"text":"這個合法不合法不是由我來認定而是說這個部分因為這個部分據我所知審計部它也有在進行查核那這個部分就是等於是說我們還必須要看它本身這一個"},{"start":32237.74,"end":32256.68,"text":"主委他本身這個專刊的一個內容那是不是有跟這個計畫有相符合或者裡面有沒有諸作很大那這才能夠確定說這個經費到底是合法不合法這樣所以這個部分我們也必須要查證以後才能夠做好沒有問題喔"},{"start":32257.961,"end":32271.957,"text":"主委部長您的精神你要查證我明天我會請辦公室送一本我剛講的寫真集到您的辦公室去因為你當然看完了以後你也可以做你的評價說這不是寫真集"},{"start":32275.4,"end":32299.536,"text":"這跟原住民的政策本會的施政方針以及我們的業務工作報告根本就是在講這件事情不是什麼個人寫真集黃國昌質詢無憑無據胡說八道你也可以形成這樣的見解台灣是一個自由民主法治的社會嘛那但是我們就依法論法把它講清楚因為我這件事情"},{"start":32300.532,"end":32325.992,"text":"我一定要打破砂鍋問到底到底這樣子幹是不是合法如果這樣幹還合法的話那我必須要講問題嚴重啦我們整個預算制度啊根本是形同虛設紀律蕩然無存啦我為什麼會擔心這個紀律蕩然無存啊我們的行政院院長卓榮泰告訴大家不要浪費公帑"},{"start":32327.475,"end":32352.765,"text":"不可以浪費公帑這是全體納稅人大家共同的希望但在我的角度是這就是浪費公帑但問題是浪費公帑我們竟然還沒有辦法對它怎麼樣代表了這個國家出現了嚴重的問題因為我有看你們主計總處在跟人家上課的時候預算經費的使用應符合計畫內容"},{"start":32355.917,"end":32375.86,"text":"預算費用的使用應符合計畫內容但是剛剛那個有符合計畫內容嗎?您現在沒辦法做判斷我尊重我一定會送一本到你們那邊去過兩個禮拜等到勞動部的調查報告出來以後我也會送一份報告給您我們一定要搞清楚"},{"start":32377.065,"end":32403.351,"text":"我們過了預算裡面有說明我們本來以為是要做什麼好事結果錢拿去胡搞瞎搞胡搞瞎搞完以後如果整個最後的結論是這個查無不法謝謝指教那我們的預算制度就有需要徹底的檢討到時候再麻煩主席長因為主席站起來我後面其實很多問題其實後面也沒有人在等"},{"start":32406.168,"end":32406.328,"text":"韓國昌委員"},{"start":32425.157,"end":32448.557,"text":"陳素悅委員用書面質詢陳盈委員、陳盈委員、陳盈、陳盈、陳盈不在蔡易瑜委員用書面質詢我們剛好5點半耶這樣是不是提早下課啊今日登記發言委員經已詢答完畢本次會議做如下決議"},{"start":32450.826,"end":32475.444,"text":"報告、說明及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊。請相關部會與一周內已書面答覆。委員應要求期限者從其所定。委員蘇清泉、陳昭之、蔡其昌、張家俊、陳樹越、邱毅榮、葉元之、邱振軍、蔡依"},{"start":32476.678,"end":32500.872,"text":"所提的書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報．並請相關部會書面答覆:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設第5期特別預算114年度．令則其繼續審查。」本日會議委員若有相關預算提案請於11月27日星期三中午12點前競送財政委員會議事人員收件。"},{"start":32502.25,"end":32524.924,"text":"本次會議議程已經進行完畢,堂有不在場委員補題書面執行,一併列入紀錄,刊登公報,並請議事人員協助處理。我們處理詢答的時候,請部長務必要到,不然可能會有很好的下場。來,好,三位,謝謝。"},{"start":32529.636,"end":32532.559,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":32611.917,"end":32615.458,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":32636.633,"end":32639.738,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":32671.357,"end":32671.442,"text":"本集完"}]}},{"id":"16283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16283","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685bae2c6269a10f1bf34951183b3aa6843b104c5adbfed68f7e534eba37c9c9edb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-20T08:32:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T16:42:00+08:00","duration":29395,"影片長度":"08:09:55","委員發言時間":"08:32:05 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字幕組"},{"start":352.605,"end":352.991,"text":"主席"},{"start":1835.396,"end":1839.457,"text":"出席委員與主法定人數現在開會請議事人員先讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1850.734,"end":1855.195,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議議事錄．時間113年11月14日星期四﹐93分至13時32分﹐地點群選樓801會議室﹐出席委員、陳委員、趙姿等14人﹐"},{"start":1865.959,"end":1888.943,"text":"列席委員賴、委員世保等18人、列席官員、衛生福利部政務次長林靜怡及環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員、主席黃兆吉委員秀芳報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二、繼續處理衛生福利部韓衛113年度中央政府總預算分別檢送食品藥物管理署決議一至三及決議四預算凍結書面報告案兩案"},{"start":1891.964,"end":1899.768,"text":"決定均同意動之並提報院會．邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢本次會議業務報告及討論事項綜合詢答由環境部部長報告及說明後委員陳昭芝等23人提出質詢均經環境部部長及各相關主管等及其答覆委員楊耀及張雅琳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1916.355,"end":1925.645,"text":"2.委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者,請相關期關於2週內已書面答覆。委員令要求期限者,從期鎖定。討論事項1."},{"start":1925.645,"end":1930.911,"text":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算"},{"start":1931.611,"end":1956.797,"text":"二、審查環境部含送環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人114年度預算書案以上討論事項軍警詢答決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算及環境部含送環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人114年度預算書案令則其繼續審查。宣讀完畢"},{"start":1963.272,"end":1966.856,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處?沒有。議事錄確定。本日會議的議程為邀請勞動部部長、"},{"start":1978.598,"end":2000.754,"text":"全旭部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試院、公務人員保障及培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就職場霸凌防治與處理作業進行專題報告．"},{"start":2005.437,"end":2026.545,"text":"並備質詢現在介紹在場委員及列席官員第一位是陳昭芝委員再來是陳清輝委員我們介紹行政官員"},{"start":2028.015,"end":2044.625,"text":"我們勞動部部長何佩珊何部長勞動力發展署來過5號蔡孟良署長職安署署長周子蓮勞動關係司司長王厚偉勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃維琛人事處處長"},{"start":2057.219,"end":2084.28,"text":"江碧玲鄭豐處處長周志信全系部法規司司長雷成國安部常務次長楊基榮總督察室經濟督察處處長吳長峰"},{"start":2088.274,"end":2114.916,"text":"政治作戰局政戰綜合處處長張景泰法律事務司人權保障處處長余建昌人事參謀處長是人事管理處副處長盧志欽內政部警政署人事事主任許淑珍"},{"start":2118.598,"end":2143.146,"text":"督察室組長蕭詠卿內政部消防署副署長馮俊毅人事室主任鄭宏斌救災救護指揮中心科長翁世洋"},{"start":2148.01,"end":2172.84,"text":"行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處處長陳月春考試院保訓中規處處長黃振榮公務人員保障及培訓委員會保障處處長黃秀琴教育部人事處處長王崇斌"},{"start":2175.899,"end":2203.325,"text":"資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖雙慶國家科學及技術委員會南部科學園區管理局主任秘書關嘉明衛福部心理健康師代理師長鄭淑欣外交部人事處處長黃立琳以上"},{"start":2208.28,"end":2208.48,"text":"主席"},{"start":2220.799,"end":2238.784,"text":"各位委員、各位記者朋友今天很感謝委員會邀請我來報告職場霸凌防治與處理作業那我要跟各位報告在勞動部主管的這個關於職場霸凌的法規呢"},{"start":2240.304,"end":2266.86,"text":"其實已經有執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引可是呢這是針對一般的民營企業也是針對適用我們勞基法的所有勞工那麼我想最近大家所關注的重點是在於我們的機關內部就是我們的公務體系那麼機關內部在這一點確實在這個法體系上面兩者是不一樣的"},{"start":2268.081,"end":2281.593,"text":"目前職場法適用於各業的工作者只有就政府機關具公務人員身份還有職場不法侵害預防的相關權益他必須優先適用公務人員保障法及公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法"},{"start":2284.18,"end":2306.91,"text":"所以比如像勞動部部本部我們也有針對這個依據這個法令我們建立了這個員工安全及衛生防護要點來保護本部裡面的員工有遭受霸凌的問題也因為這樣所以當然各界關心最近我們本部發生的北分暑同仁"},{"start":2308.335,"end":2332.574,"text":"離開的這樣不幸的事件那麼在這個事件上面我為什麼由勞動部本身來進行行政調查那麼我所組的外部專家我所組的委員會裡面的這樣委員會的組成也是參考我們員工安全及衛生防護要點的比例而有了外部專家"},{"start":2333.715,"end":2354.468,"text":"所以我在這一個調查裡面我的外部專家含兩位一位是臺北大學的法律系的郭林惠國老師他是長年的為各機關諮詢性評霸凌等專業的老師另一位是曾牧成心理智商師"},{"start":2356.09,"end":2357.431,"text":"這份報告我跟大家報告"},{"start":2375.726,"end":2390.973,"text":"這份報告是由我們的外部專家主導起草所以裡面的有些用語是專業用語或是專業的考慮比如大家所質疑的關於謝芬署長所謂目的良善這個問題"},{"start":2393.182,"end":2418.613,"text":"我要跟各位報告他其實只是專家們基於平衡並非認同謝芬署長的行為所以有這樣子的用語這一點要懇請大家可以諒解那麼是基於這一個專業敘述的需要那其次呢我也要跟各位報告我為什麼會進行這個調查報告"},{"start":2421.121,"end":2440.104,"text":"因為我想我來到勞動部我身為一個機關的領導者我當面對這麼重大的事情的時候我當然也可以採取我們一般政治作為上面關鍵的用粗暴的或者是用甩鍋的方式或斷尾求生的方式"},{"start":2441.56,"end":2450.948,"text":"那麼很快的把這件事結案掉但是我考慮到因為這是我們文官體制裡面的悲劇"},{"start":2452.543,"end":2479.9,"text":"那我想要從這裡面找出是不是我們這個官僚課程體制出了什麼問題而導致這樣的悲劇我想這個原因必須被找出來而且要釐清事實我才有辦法去確定責任的歸屬才能進行講成而即便是進行講成我也必須慎重因為就我一位政務官首長的權力"},{"start":2481.738,"end":2498.339,"text":"各位我並沒有直接停止文官的權利啊我必須要有事實理由跟根據所以這就是我為什麼要進行調查報告的原因那麼也許我們的調查報告有供各界檢視"},{"start":2501.033,"end":2523.294,"text":"每一位可能都有自己心目中所理解的真相那麼也許調查報告他在我們的外部整個的組成裡面我們跟各位報告在兩位外部專家的主導起草下我懇請各位可以相信他的專業性以及公平性以及客觀性因為專家們反覆討論"},{"start":2525.075,"end":2552.997,"text":"在裡面進行了非常多的資料的這樣子的分析所以才做出這樣的報告這是一份呕心瀝血的專案報告我想也是透過這樣的過程我希望能夠釐清我們官僚課程體制裡面也許比如像謝芬署長這樣的人他有他的惡可是這樣的惡是不是普遍存在於我們的課程官僚體制當中"},{"start":2555.461,"end":2572.354,"text":"就像德國哲學家漢拉厄倫所說的平庸的邪惡而這種惡也是導致悲劇發生的主要來源我懇請大家能夠透過這份報告來一同思考這個問題非常謝謝"},{"start":2580.574,"end":2607.404,"text":"好 謝謝部長那今天這個會議很重要啦那勞動部我們是要求企業、公司、行業要重視職場的健康那這次勞動部的員工死亡也證明了我們勞動部本身是有一點問題職場健康也有問題所以呢我們今天就要來探討然後各位不管"},{"start":2609.861,"end":2628.651,"text":"不同族群的委員都會來請教事實上我們在外交部、在科技部尤其國防部跟警政署也都有很多霸凌的事件所以我們今天也邀請各部會都來所以大家一同悉心的來檢討"},{"start":2631.837,"end":2656.967,"text":"那這個勞動部這一份報告我也看了那有的人不滿意有的人感同身受但是各有各的見解所以我們就好好的來討論討論那我們現在所有本次會議各項書面資料我們都會列入紀錄刊登公報永久保存我們現在就開始詢答所以以下宣告"},{"start":2657.927,"end":2670.42,"text":"本委員會的委員尋討時間8分鐘,列席委員4分鐘,10點半截止登記發言,如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出,預期不受理。11點半處理臨時提案"},{"start":2683.106,"end":2695.517,"text":"11點截止臨時提案的收案我們現在請第一位陳昭之委員發言謝謝主席 有請何部長部長請"},{"start":2702.311,"end":2716.244,"text":"部長昨天的北分署的霸凌案的調查記者會不但沒有釐清真相而且是讓這把火越燒越大因為這是一份前後矛盾邏輯不通關關相互的調查報告我為什麼這樣說呢請你先看簡報你們這個調查報告明確地寫出謝怡榮分署長有大聲咆哮怒罵或貶低同仁行為還導致多人求助身心科"},{"start":2726.354,"end":2755.874,"text":"他在下班會加上要求回訊息﹖如果沒有及時回覆﹖會遭責問接到關於自身的檢舉案﹖他竟然要去知道檢舉人是誰對於工作不滿意的同仁就進行排擠甚至要求員工在上班時間去參加這個跑路活動加速同事的工作時間還有退下那個屬下的公務人員的時候他就不斷的面商但是都不給明確的指示而且言語間夾帶貶低部長如果這是你你會覺得是霸凌嗎請回答是不是霸凌"},{"start":2756.414,"end":2775.107,"text":"你有沒有霸凌的感覺?當然,我們也承認這是霸凌,我們在報告裡也承認這是霸凌。部長,我繼續來,國防部職場霸凌,你剛剛說內部常見的不法侵害,你剛剛提到多使用勞工,不使用公務員,但我覺得基本上保護人民的精神跟原則是一樣的。"},{"start":2777.908,"end":2800.321,"text":"他在內部組織常見的不法侵害有五點其中你的報告裡面就自己寫出了三點刨銷入罵找出檢舉人要檢舉自己的人要求過高因為退文又不給明確的指示賦予不必要工作要人在上班時間去跑步以卸分署長的行為絕對是霸凌但是非常荒謬的調查報告明明列出了一大堆"},{"start":2801.381,"end":2821.442,"text":"謝芬署長長久以來的職場霸凌行為但對於這件輕生個案卻說無法證明該員工有遭受長官的職場霸凌請問這到底是什麼邏輯啊你根據這個調查的事實也推不出這樣的結論啊難道謝芬署長霸凌的對象很多很多人就是唯獨沒有這個輕生的這個員工嗎"},{"start":2823.829,"end":2838.13,"text":"我跟委員報告確實是如此部長你暫時先停下來你昨天在記者會上竟然說同人有職場霸凌的感受但這不是造成同人選擇結束生命的直接原因部長"},{"start":2839.792,"end":2862.187,"text":"這件事是你能斷定的嗎?你是檢調還是法官還是心理師?我認為沒有水落石注之前,部長你做這樣定調,說員工不是因為受霸凌而輕生了,非常的不恰當。部長,勞動部不要你重啟調查,我只要你重寫報告,你根據調查的事實寫出的報告是不符合的。我要求三天內重寫一份報告回來,根據事實就好,不用重啟調查。"},{"start":2864.141,"end":2871.157,"text":"部長你昨天說會將謝芬署長調離員單位並降為非主管職另外再送內部考機會請問這樣就結案了嗎?"},{"start":2874.244,"end":2877.486,"text":"還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案還沒有結案"},{"start":2897.376,"end":2918.534,"text":"縣察院已經啟動調查不是你有送縣察院嗎縣察院是主動是不是委員我必須先完成我內部的懲戒反正如果你不提我會先提我會提案的請不要忘記喔你說你的調查無題不要忘記洪仲秋案國防部自己調查說沒有違法行事結果呢送到檢調以後有沒有違法不要忘記洪仲秋的案子"},{"start":2919.495,"end":2940.138,"text":"好再來部長之前崔少哲指出2月份就有人投書謝宜蓉當時的王安班次長進行約談昨天記者會有媒體關心這個議題但是部長你輕輕說這件事不在調查範圍內草草帶過部長為什麼認為這個不在調查範圍呢今年2月王安班次長到底有沒有約談謝宜蓉"},{"start":2942.306,"end":2965.484,"text":"約談事由是什麼?談了什麼?部長你在這邊知道這件事嗎?您知道這件事嗎?我看了媒體的報導你回去看這樣子我今天要求在今天整體結束質詢之前我要求勞動部交出當時這份約談紀錄因為這是過去的事不是現在要做的事我今天就要今天整個質詢你現在部署都知道馬上去調資料我馬上要這個資料今天整個結束之前我要這份約談紀錄"},{"start":2971.188,"end":2982.337,"text":"這只是一個私下的談話,我們沒有任何記錄你可以折騰折,我要知道有沒有約談,約談的事由是什麼,至少我可以知道吧部長,其實貴黨的新北市議員已經在臉書貼出了這個北分署員工二月份的陳情書,你看這五點,你去看這個五點用供電養殖災,浪費這個電費暴漲,言語霸凌怒罵,濫用工廠濫發禮品"},{"start":2997.87,"end":3004.945,"text":"發報標案給特定友人,要求相關時間參加跑步活動,其中二跟五你在調查報告有,一、三、四我拿證據給你看"},{"start":3008.175,"end":3024.661,"text":"委員這部分我們都已經在立案調查了好再好好看謝宜龍分署長是去年3月1號到任的這個指北分署北分署同仁投訴他為自己喜好的植栽種植大量植栽而且用公費加裝這個我都還第一次聽了軌道燈24小時照明植物"},{"start":3027.862,"end":3037.394,"text":"做成電費大增,好,看一下,去年同期跟他上任後的同期,比起11年同期121萬年的用電度數,右邊,增加了15687度,電費暴漲近55萬,這算不算貪污?要不要一送檢調?"},{"start":3047.435,"end":3053.698,"text":"委員我們已經正風在調查這個案因為這是委員這也是剛剛我證據確實啊繼續看繼續看此外北分署111年並沒有連結政理喔過去沒有這個習慣喔但是謝宜龍112年到任之後過去兩年的三節政理金高達183萬他是不是濫發禮品做個人公關啊"},{"start":3078.783,"end":3093.848,"text":"根據2月份的陳情,謝怡榮分署長還要求這些禮盒的外包裝要有特別的設計並且都發包給同一個有人私交慎阻的設計師處理而且還不是從首長的特別費支出他是動用了北分署各種業務計劃的預算來支應包括至少兩項青年職能開發業務"},{"start":3103.658,"end":3115.917,"text":"促進特定對象就業服務部長這是在促進分署長有人的就業嗎這算不算圖利我們會立案調查圖利是要收押進去的喔"},{"start":3117.216,"end":3134.866,"text":"我們已經這已經都政風有在瞭解而且在調查中部長我最後想請你看一下這一張這個是你們勞動部勞動部的勞發署執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引上面就這張表格職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表"},{"start":3135.766,"end":3159.741,"text":"當中所附的表格主要是給僱主跟主管職務來檢核自己的行為是否涉及霸凌我昨天看了你的記者會之後你知道我馬上反省我自己我有沒有做過類似的事情所以所以請勞動部部長您自己還有今天在場的每一個主管官員今天在場這裡今天到場每一個主管官員我要求你們填一份這個東西"},{"start":3161.314,"end":3190.493,"text":"自己回去好好想想看你平日檢視自己平日的言行是否適當我不想讓這有悲劇的這個霸凌悲劇發生你們每次都填一份填一份要副本送到我辦公室或送到委員會我今天要這個東西好我再跟你複習做最後總複習我今天要四個工作部長你回去有四個工作儘管我們過長期的私交我今天是不假情面第一個二月份的約談紀錄我要機密東西你自己你自己擦掉我要他到底有沒有約談的主旨二月份"},{"start":3191.073,"end":3207.4,"text":"本部裡沒有約談記錄因為部裡根本沒有這件事你要去查清楚喔萬一查出來這個真的是沒有這件事我跟班次長談的這個議員都有質詢到我們也有資料好 第一個你如果有我今天就要質詢你回去查我已經查過了真的是沒有你去查你去查第二個"},{"start":3211.261,"end":3236.833,"text":"就調查結果重新寫一份報告因為你的報告的事實跟這個結論是不一致的我要求重寫三天內重寫剛剛的結論剛剛的結論我可以再跟您解釋一下嗎沒有結論不同這麼多的霸凌事件結果他說不能證明該員工是因為等等等等我所謂的不能證明是因為確實而且還說不能不是那種不能證明的原因主要是來委員您聽我解釋一下好不好就是謝芬署長跟這位離開的同仁之間還隔兩個還隔兩位主管"},{"start":3240.695,"end":3259.686,"text":"一位副分署長、一位秘書室主任直接督導他的是齊訓長、副分署長以及秘書室主任謝分署長與他之間還隔著這兩位所以謝分署長沒有直接霸凌他所以謝分署長沒有直接霸凌他但是謝分署長有霸凌我霸凌其他的官人"},{"start":3266.07,"end":3267.151,"text":"關於副分署長在10月30號約見離開的同仁"},{"start":3282.897,"end":3303.164,"text":"並且退他的件,要求他11月4號重寫我可不可以把這份資料送給您那你為什麼昨天,你要給我這都可以啊,但是我他的工作你要給我啊這就是為什麼關鍵的這樣子的原因今天弄出人命了耶對,我為什麼會說謝分署長無法證實他直接霸凌他是因為他不是直接督導他的人你敢不敢辦他?你敢不敢辦他?我當然敢辦他你敢辦他?當然,因為我考機會正在,我考機會"},{"start":3310.806,"end":3311.126,"text":"我考機會會進行懲處"},{"start":3340.574,"end":3345.518,"text":"謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。辛苦了。接下來我們請陳清威委員質詢。謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員。我也想請部長。委員好。部長好。"},{"start":3366.837,"end":3390.342,"text":"部長這個昨天你們的記者會啊一邊開旁邊的網友留言全部都炸鍋如果您有空的話可以回去看一下網友留言我是認為網友的頭腦都比我們大家比你們勞動部還清楚勞動部是督導我們全國的勞工環境結果自己沒有辦法遵守自己的規定這樣子哪裡還有企業可以服從勞動部的規範呢"},{"start":3392.643,"end":3419.701,"text":"那我也覺得很荒謬的是記者會一開始你就頒發一個勳章但是你的內容是講說我頒發這個勳章可是我讓這個同仁有受霸凌的感受但是呢是他的心理素質不夠好不堪負荷工作的壓力很遺憾但是你今天才講你昨天說有霸凌的感受你今天剛剛報告終於說的確是有霸凌的事實嘛對吧"},{"start":3421.002,"end":3438.513,"text":"是對其他同仁一級主管們有霸凌的事實但是對這位當事人造成了他被霸凌的感受是這個意思嗎沒有這一點我也無法證實這一點在報告裡面因為都是專家去訪談的專家們認為無法證實不是我"},{"start":3442.555,"end":3461.222,"text":"我認為這位被霸凌者您說他沒有被霸凌這位死者他的家屬還有現在全國國人就是想要一個真相結果你頒了一個勳章然後說是對他上面的一級主管是有霸凌的事實但是對他沒有辦法肯定是這個意思嗎"},{"start":3462.842,"end":3482.831,"text":"這是專家去調查的時候他們所做的結論是這樣就是您剛講的外部專家他們做出來的結論嗎因為這是客觀的事實的問題部長您昨天也提到說這個分署長目前的精神狀態不佳需要被心理諮商可能就是今天我們有來的衛福部的官員在負責他的心理諮商但是他22號就要回來上班了請問他會給我們一個書面的道歉嗎"},{"start":3488.314,"end":3502.425,"text":"他到至今他都沒有出來他當然一定要道歉的所以他22號會跟我們全國國人我想他應該要盡快來道歉他22號會上班沒錯吧我想因為他現在請假中那麼我想他應該要盡快來道歉沒有問題"},{"start":3503.866,"end":3521.08,"text":"部長因為我接下來要問你的問題啊等一下還有其他人會問昨天您的記者會是是直接點火在燃燒所以有非常非常多的深喉嚨已經一一找上我們很多的委員那我這個是從執政黨那邊聽來的我是也想請問您啦在這個事情發生過後部長您有沒有致電給民進黨的副秘書長永元慧這個何柏文副秘書長"},{"start":3532.789,"end":3554.017,"text":"請他關切這個勇言會的市議員不要再打追究這件事情你有沒有打這通電話給何柏文副秘書長因為我必須跟李雨祥議員溝通啊所以我有透過何柏文秘書長拜託他幫我們跟李雨祥議員溝通我怎麼做我讓他知道"},{"start":3554.877,"end":3571.363,"text":"結果在李宇祥市議員的臉書上是說你們勞動部發了一個公文請他不要再亂傳你們勞動部的公文這個是瞭解嗎?我們有發這樣的公文嗎?沒有的您再到他的臉書上去看一下所以您是有打給這個何柏文秘書長嗎?有有有"},{"start":3572.423,"end":3598.196,"text":"那根據這個深喉嚨的指出等一下應該也會有別人問啦他說您把你的老師柯建民搬出來說這個希望派系之間的鬥爭不要太嚴重我是想問啦今天你是勞動部部長你應該儘速解決的是我們全國公部門機關這些霸凌的事件要如何遏止怎麼會搞到你用黨中央的派系去處理這件事情呢"},{"start":3599.056,"end":3602.538,"text":"委員我絕對沒有請柯總召講派系問題沒有這個部分我沒有我沒有說你找柯總召是你在打這通電話的時候有沒有提到柯總召沒有沒有那你要找一位市議員需要透過副秘書長嗎當然因為我不認識他"},{"start":3617.746,"end":3631.672,"text":"對不起,因為我不認識他,是,抱歉他其實已經在臉書上呼喚你很久了是,可是我真的不認識他,所以我想跟他溝通所以你的確是有打接通電話給國防部秘書長嗎?是的,是的好,那再來呢,我們想問的是,剛剛已經提到了你也承認這個是一個霸凌的事件但是現在勞動部內部許多人瑟瑟發抖啊"},{"start":3644.517,"end":3658.395,"text":"你昨天完全沒有公布說這個人要調去哪裡你只有說他會換到一個幕僚的單位所以現在很多人不知道他會不會換到我的單位請問這是多大的機密啊為什麼沒有辦法公布他被調去哪裡"},{"start":3659.963,"end":3683.97,"text":"我已經把他降為10值等專委了你有把他降值等嗎?有有從11降到10?是是是對好那他要調去哪裡?因為調去哪裡?勤勤委員給我們一點時間當然這種時候會有哪個地方願意要他去呢?是不是?那要給我們一點時間安排所以他22號回來上班他要先回哪裡?"},{"start":3686.402,"end":3701.727,"text":"拜託委員給我一點時間所以你22號會公佈他要去哪裡是當然然後帶著他出來道歉是好再來這邊呢當然你可能不想再聽一下這個錄音檔了啦但是我們還是要播給大家看幫我播一下"},{"start":3703.953,"end":3726.722,"text":"分享的你們可以不用在上面給我按讚或是好棒棒都不要尤其是假日我們根本不知道你們是不是直系啊所以我一早就為了密說因為那個別同志你沒有回他基本的網路禮儀不懂嗎這不就是一個公視送達一個收吸的概念嗎我們會知道你們知道嗎今天時間到即便我delay你們都應該在外面待命不是嗎"},{"start":3728.459,"end":3751.934,"text":"好不管是右邊的法院判決或者是你們勞動部自己的執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引在在都顯示這位分署長的惡劣行徑就是屬於職場霸凌但是您剛也承認了好那陳昭之委員你剛表我幫你做一個大的馬上幫你做一個大這是"},{"start":3754.172,"end":3765.087,"text":"貴部提供給全國的企業機關使用的好第一奇怪的是為什麼是自主減核你覺得給這個分署長自主減核他會勾他會勾嗎"},{"start":3770.799,"end":3791.49,"text":"確實從這個事件我們可以發現我們所有關於這方面的法制作業要重新檢討我根據網路上的爆料根據這些新聞還有根據他們有內部的一些投書17項它就符合11項結果昨天居然不斷的重複的是說管理不當那你對管理不當的定義也太鬆散了吧"},{"start":3795.973,"end":3813.352,"text":"所以你說要把勞發署署長、副分署長、秘書處主任都送考機會懲處因為他們都必須要負行政責任那政治責任誰來負擔呢政治責任我負啊因為我是政務官是接下來呢"},{"start":3815.683,"end":3843.732,"text":"接下來我會負我該負的責任如果當然社會各界不滿意我會負我該負的責任好那我們今天就看一下所有的委員有沒有辦法接受您今天提供給我們這份報告啦好再來我們是要通盤來檢討這個公部門職場霸凌的問題因為這都是近期內我把所有的新聞整理出來我們也想請這個全序部還有人事總處還有考試院的代表都可以一起列席"},{"start":3845.205,"end":3858.072,"text":"我是婦產科醫生所以看到這個臺南女警被強迫深夜值班以至於流產這件事情也非常的有感今年8月可惜我們是在休會所以沒有辦法在這麼公開的場域來質詢但是我也"},{"start":3861.434,"end":3885.544,"text":"這個召開過一個協調會8月份保發中心有一位主管也是霸凌導致一位工讀生不幸的過世好當時霸凌的這個主管啊與學生生前的對話現在有很多職場霸凌的對話為什麼網路會炸鍋因為這些錄音檔都流傳出來啦不管是你們勞動部或是保發中心還要等一下會講到的海科館"},{"start":3886.784,"end":3910.718,"text":"每一個網友只要聽完這個錄音都會覺得這些人親身的很不值得啊為了你們這樣子的行為而親身真的很不值得好這個海科館的館長他也是極盡的羞辱這位同仁啊他說他不准他請假然後說不然你就去退休好了這些東西都在網路上流傳如果你們不盡快做出一些調整"},{"start":3911.698,"end":3916.342,"text":"我覺得會有越來越多人釋放出更多的錄音我們來看"},{"start":3918.608,"end":3942.777,"text":"這個考試院代表請你回答公務人員保障法第19條規定包含這個公務人員的安全防護措施有執行職務遭受精神不法侵害的預防對不對是那你覺得這個海科館館長他的同仁需要受訓想請特休他一開始先不讓他請假後來叫他直接退休算了"},{"start":3943.632,"end":3959.6,"text":"我又在這個表上又多勾了兩項不准人請假或是不准人強迫退休都又符合囉17項又多了兩項請問他這樣子的發言算不算是精神上的侵害"},{"start":3961.621,"end":3989.319,"text":"這個一般上應該是覺得說應該算是是嘛好那你們這個公務人員保障法第19條你有辦法保障他嗎你可以用你們的自己的法律保障他們嗎目前的機制的話是先向機關申訴如果對於申訴結果不同不滿意或者不同意的話好我等一下跟你講你們機關申訴出了什麼大問題是第一呢你這個公保法齁你剛剛講到"},{"start":3990.885,"end":4017.554,"text":"沒有法則欸第一你很難定義第二你還沒有法則欸是所以依照你們的定義的話昨天他講的管理不當你覺得適合嗎還是直接就定義他是一個職場霸凌依照現行規定各機關會和安全防護小組他小組會由小組來認定那小組的認定不適當或不合然後就要再往保訓會的再申訴的程序那邊處理好這裡啊"},{"start":4020.185,"end":4032.312,"text":"沒有處分欸對所以就算他違反了這條法律現在他也沒有對他可以有任何的處分你覺得這件事是不是應該要重新檢討是那另外這個部分就是機關首長要來經過考記的這個程序來處理這樣對"},{"start":4038.789,"end":4055.038,"text":"我希望3個月內你可以提出書面報告好嗎我們可不可以增訂公務人員保障法對精神侵害屬實的處分的依據可以嗎報告委員那個保障法是保訓會主管是不是可以容許有保訓會跟您報告一下這樣"},{"start":4060.53,"end":4074.485,"text":"各位委員報告我們目前公務人員保障法裡面它有要機關應該預防公務人員受到不法侵害那我們的安全衛生防護辦法"},{"start":4075.626,"end":4078.447,"text":"目前因為停職是對公務人權有重大影響應該在法律上明定"},{"start":4105.905,"end":4118.482,"text":"我我跟你們講你剛你們剛講的那個表出了什麼可以依照懲戒法的規定一副懲戒之後如果認為情節重大就可以依法所以剛提到的這位分署長他應該考機會也會送懲戒也會討論了之後對兩邊都會"},{"start":4123.188,"end":4141.493,"text":"因為我們目前懲戒跟懲處是並行的嘛他可以一方面做懲處一方面機關認為他情節重大的話可以依照懲戒法的規定移赴懲戒那移赴懲戒也可以依照懲戒法的規定如果認為是情節重大可以依職權停職這個應該情節夠重大了吧"},{"start":4145.214,"end":4159.295,"text":"因為只要機關認定並不是保訓會認定所以的意思是說機關目前還沒認定他情節重大所以還報告之後調查清楚了要討論到考機會上去討論"},{"start":4160.977,"end":4183.904,"text":"才會給予停職的處分才會考慮有沒有這一條的適用考試院我們可以再討論一下您剛提到的您剛提到有一個員工職場霸凌處理標準作業流程這個是人事總處訂定出來的你看這兩個表有多大的問題我都已經幫你圈出來了剛剛我提到所有近期內發生的新聞事件"},{"start":4184.744,"end":4184.764,"text":"報告．"},{"start":4210.49,"end":4211.031,"text":"請您看一下左邊這個表"},{"start":4231.733,"end":4246.955,"text":"假使發生了多元申訴管道好你一邊是事件處理啟動申訴處理調查一邊是主動這個人事主管單位主管主動通報機關首長那假使霸凌者本人就是機關首長你覺得他應該要去走哪一條路"},{"start":4251.942,"end":4277.881,"text":"委員好因為機關首長的話他就是往上級機關走那這個部分的話我們在112年9月14號的時候我們也有通韓行政院所屬各主管機關還有地方機關要在他們這個相關的處理要點裡面要把機關首長涉及這個職場霸凌的申訴處理由上級機關"},{"start":4279.362,"end":4285.428,"text":"所以你的意思是說現在全國在看電視的公務人員他假使遇到是被機關首長霸凌他要再往上一個單位嗎是這個意思嗎"},{"start":4308.329,"end":4332.456,"text":"說明一下那個分署的上級機關是勞發署那我們這個流程的規定就是說你在有這個霸凌的相關事件發生的時候這一個處理的參考流程那你公務人員你再跟機關提出申訴那如果是申訴的對象是機關首長那就是往上級機關來做"},{"start":4334.757,"end":4351.832,"text":"申訴處理之後陳昭智委員會繼續追因為這個人的確是有在網上這個大家應該都知道吧但是卻沒有結果啊所以你這張表啊我們也會要求你通盤的檢討就算是網上也沒有用啊"},{"start":4353.7,"end":4380.717,"text":"這個相關的機制的部分我們這個也會來配合勞動部的那個相關的那個職場霸凌指引好就是因為你們人事總處、考試院、詮釋部都沒有把這些規則訂好來我們來看教育部他是怎麼回復我們的這個建議免刪除或是凍結預算的回復剛剛已經有講到了海科館的館長是用言語去羞辱他的同仁"},{"start":4381.737,"end":4407.232,"text":"結果呢 最後回來的報告是寫說噢 經過我們的瞭解他還是給他放假囉 而且也讓他去受訓囉最後沒有影響到員工的權益 這樣就算了欸那館長已經表達會自主檢討 積極改善所以他前面被霸凌的事實全部都不用算囉 因為最後他的權益都沒有影響所以他中間被精神虐待 精神霸凌都無所謂了嗎"},{"start":4415.703,"end":4429.678,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們教育部的回覆主要是針對請假最後的結果來做說明那至於說整個那個館長他的這個管理風格的這個部分我們事實上已經在做了解所以的確我們剛講的第19條毫無約束能力嘛"},{"start":4433.502,"end":4459.962,"text":"他沒有辦法懲處也沒有辦法約束我三個月內要看到你們提交報告第一要怎麼樣界定什麼叫管理不當什麼叫霸凌第二他可以受到什麼懲處我們要如何援引這個法條最後這邊因為我很怕又有一個無辜的生命受到侵害這個是最近脆上面一直在流傳的有一位疾管署的整備組組長"},{"start":4461.923,"end":4478.83,"text":"一樣這個他在籍管署就像一個土皇帝啦許多豐功偉業很多人發文對同事咆哮摔公文罵別人是豬導致一堆人降調或是用其他的方式逃離我也請了籍管署提供相關的資料齁"},{"start":4479.85,"end":4481.732,"text":"他這個整備組調離還有辭職率高達37.14%是署內的最高單位也是異動率最高的我想知道保訓會什麼時候可以開始立案調查?多久可以有結果?"},{"start":4498.001,"end":4520.594,"text":"跟委員報告各機關有關職場霸凌的調查是各機關的權限各機關針對這個調查之後做成成立或不成立的決定那今天衛福部只有來一位是不是衛福部只有來一位所以保訓會你已經收到我們具體的檢舉還是要交給原來單位就對了第一個保訓會還沒有接到這個案子"},{"start":4527.853,"end":4550.506,"text":"我現在在告訴你這個案子那這個案子必須機關先做行政調查對於新機關行政調查的結果任何一方的公務人員、霸凌者或是被霸凌者有所不服都可以依照保障法的規定來提起最後我就是請衛福部代表回答他會不會今天回去啟動這個調查"},{"start":4552.566,"end":4555.067,"text":"明天可以請教部長還有機關署 其實明天機關署要過來"},{"start":4578.258,"end":4580.679,"text":"主席,是不是請我們這個勞動部部長"},{"start":4598.436,"end":4612.233,"text":"昨天你們的行政調查結果報告出來那引起很多的迴響那其中有一個說法是這樣子就是說調查小組的召集人是誰"},{"start":4613.849,"end":4616.43,"text":"許傳聖次長有人說許傳聖次長跟這個謝宜榮這個分署長是在北市政府社會局的時候就舊事然後他也曾經公開跟大家說我認識謝宜榮很久了他只是個性級"},{"start":4635.2,"end":4639.424,"text":"結果在調查的時候甚至曾經有傳出他對調查小組的委員說要還優秀的人才清白然後聽說我們的許次長經常下鄉的時候都說怡榮要賠"},{"start":4654.537,"end":4665.147,"text":"要陪、要跟著然後呢我們就看到了你們定調的這個行政調查結果你們大概的講的範圍是說謝玉榮他基本上是這個過度求好心切啦你們的基本上是這樣講這個跟他的管理方式"},{"start":4674.235,"end":4699.923,"text":"這個並不是同仁離開的直接原因而他個人因為求好心切其他都是高工時、人力不足這一些問題所以看起來我們有傳出說這個次長跟他交情頗好結果調查小組都是跟他交情頗好的人在當召集人這樣的事情你有什麼看法"},{"start":4700.745,"end":4722.192,"text":"委員首先第一點我要澄清許市長他是30年前跟他在臺北市沒有啦也不只是這樣子他也公開說我認識他很久了他只是個性急他就公開跟大家這樣講啊媒體報導的啊我想那是他過去對他個性的理解所以有此可知他們很熟啊很理解啊然後他下鄉的時候都會說怡榮要賠啊"},{"start":4725.351,"end":4746.944,"text":"委員您放心啦 因為我們的調查那他跟調查小組的成員說我們要還優秀的人才清白這是什麼意思 預設立場我不知道他講這句話我不知道他有講過這句話好 OK 沒關係你不知道沒關係那我現在再請教你我現在有點好奇就是說依照人事總處的這個機制體制"},{"start":4755.072,"end":4759.296,"text":"他要求你們要有那個叫什麼我看一下那個叫什麼"},{"start":4760.319,"end":4762.801,"text":"機關首長如果涉及職場霸凌事件應由上級機關受理申訴事宜請各機關並同通盤檢視、修正內容相關處理作業流程並督導所屬機關落實辦理"},{"start":4791.6,"end":4805.569,"text":"什麼時候定出你們機關首長如果涉案你們的標準作業流程還有督導這個要怎麼樣進行你們是什麼時候定出來的我請人事長來回答嗎那個人事處長你們是什麼時候定出來的112年9月發文給你們你們什麼時候定出來的人事處長什麼時候"},{"start":4820.925,"end":4838.431,"text":"113年3月21號113年3月喔 聽清楚喔3月喔今年3月才訂出來人家去年9月就叫勞動部你們要訂出一個關於機關首長若涉及職場霸凌要怎麼處理的機制最近修訂是3月"},{"start":4838.911,"end":4860.795,"text":"你們不是修訂啊,你們增訂機關所長涉案是今年3月才訂今年3月是什麼時候?好沒關係今年3月是什麼狀況?今年3月是今年2月我們的王前次長你剛才講的他有沒有私底下跟勞發署分署長謝一榮討論人家所謂的陳秦涵的內容"},{"start":4865.41,"end":4870.617,"text":"有沒有我真的不知道有沒有這件事你剛才不是這樣講喔你剛才是說我也查過部裡沒有任何記錄你是說他們是私下的談話我理解你的理解他是私下談話那麼我就來了"},{"start":4880.47,"end":4891.055,"text":"你那時候還沒有修訂機關首長涉及霸凌事件的標準處理程序那你們拿著員工的陳情函然後跟被申訴者進行私底下的談話"},{"start":4899.551,"end":4910.76,"text":"我去陳情了你拿了我的陳情函去跟我陳情的對象去進行私底下的談話這是勞動部關於機關首長涉及職場霸凌的申訴處理標準制度的SOP嗎不是當然不是阿你們就是這樣做欸"},{"start":4923.05,"end":4943.441,"text":"市長就這樣做了你剛剛講說他們私底下談話我員工去陳情了裡面陳情內容包括這個謝玉榮在公共空間栽種個人植物運用公家的資源用電過量導致這個超過前期使用量然後還包括對下屬言語霸凌怒罵情緒暴衝然後還包括"},{"start":4945.462,"end":4966.948,"text":"宣導禮品濫發和花費高還包括2023年去年8月開始因個人私教學校運用同一名講師上各式各樣課程且成為多元方案顧問然後還包括強迫同仁要跑步然後你們都說這是求好心切欸這裏面不是設計霸凌人家檢舉的澄清函裏面很多還包括這個關針出問題欸"},{"start":4974.249,"end":4983.917,"text":"然後呢你們拿了這張澄清函然後去跟被檢舉的機關所長私底下談話你理解的叫私底下談話我先請教你這一個澄清函有沒有具名"},{"start":4988.41,"end":5007.648,"text":"我根本不知道沒有調查嗎?你那時候我可以認知到你不是首長,所以你不知道,但這個事情鬧得沸沸揚揚了,你現在還跟我講說你不知道,你做完行政調查了,你還說我不知情,這樣會贏嗎?"},{"start":5010.339,"end":5032.016,"text":"那我問你你現在不知情二月人家陳秦涵你們是私底下談話次長跟謝宜蓉私底下就戳掉了沒有立案僅你口頭告知叫謝宜蓉要注意言行然後就結案掉了沒有立案所以你理解成是私底下談話這個就是你們的SOP然後呢同這件事情私底下談話之後發生什麼事你知道嗎"},{"start":5040.422,"end":5047.276,"text":"就是發聲你們勞發署的謝一榮的分署用北分署人字第1130700162號發文要求同仁"},{"start":5053.069,"end":5081.241,"text":"正式發文發文的主題是避免發生洩漏公務機密的情勢正式發文給北分署裡面所有的單位你們不可以發生洩漏公務機密的情勢然後3月發生什麼事3月你們就增訂了有關機關首長涉及霸凌事件應由這個具管轄權的上級機關受理申訴事宜的規定"},{"start":5083.942,"end":5106.083,"text":"這個程序是這樣子,人家跟你們陳情了,陳情了有關真,可能有這個貪污的疑似貪污情結,更有對屬下言語霸凌怒罵情緒暴衝,你們的上級機關知情之下是私底下談話,沒有立案,用口頭告知注意言行結案。"},{"start":5106.824,"end":5122.104,"text":"然後謝玉榮回去很生氣就發了一張公文給大家不可以發生洩露公務機密的公文然後你們就趕快訂了一個機關首長涉及霸凌事件的受理申訴的事宜的處理規定好"},{"start":5124.755,"end":5125.035,"text":"我覺得這個行為是不對的"},{"start":5150.237,"end":5164.434,"text":"所以 如果 因為委員 我現在也正在立案調查中欸 你們的標準程序也不是這樣處理啊好 結果你們就這樣 我現在要再講一件事喔因為我覺得很擔心上行下效啊 組織文化啊只有謝義榮這樣子嗎 沒有 沒有 沒有你們的署長"},{"start":5170.578,"end":5192.842,"text":"蔡孟良就一開始也是覺得他是很優秀只是管理嚴格了一點我想署長啊你啊你自己任內有沒有逼走逼退很多人啊你自己單位裡面你勞發署署長有沒有情緒失控的情勢發生過呢?你有沒有主管也是受不了你霸凌離職過呢?有沒有?報告委員"},{"start":5196.532,"end":5213.997,"text":"呃我的行政管理上確實我比較嚴格那我的所有的主管我們都希望能夠一起共同打拼每一個要離開的我都希望能夠留下來所以跟委員報告我們還是希望我再問你有沒有咧你有沒有副署長你一個副署長寧願降調分數也不願再跟你一起共事啊"},{"start":5219.778,"end":5220.339,"text":"根文報告根文報告"},{"start":5241.493,"end":5260.19,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分絕對沒有所謂的霸凌跟不當管理你霸凌的人都不會覺得自己霸凌別人你有沒有情緒控管失控標罵同仁我講有沒有標罵同仁跟委員報告我現在在所有的公務上都是依照公務的要求"},{"start":5261.084,"end":5279.931,"text":"你有沒有賴副署長寧願降調分數也不要再繼續留著?跟委員報告,如果賴副署長是因為我霸凌,我可以請他共同,因為他是因為家庭的照顧因素。人家要走的人敢講真話嗎?霸凌就這樣子,就是這樣子。部長,你來講看看,我擔心的是上行下效組織文化啦。"},{"start":5287.273,"end":5293.68,"text":"那我現在聽到說也有副署長寧可降調分數也一定要離開還有5S管理不要罵同仁"},{"start":5300.558,"end":5315.948,"text":"而且署內很標準就是人一直人力不斷的流失不是只有分署分署兩年流失了81個人這個裡面還包括正式編制主任編制11個離職9個科長編制6個離職5個這是謝玉榮的成就但我們其他的署內不是分署喔我們勞防署署內有沒有這種情況"},{"start":5328.046,"end":5337.972,"text":"如果有這個情況,我們就一律徹查,包含我本人我現在在請教這個部長,對你就是可能是也是需要一併調查的對象"},{"start":5339.645,"end":5364.732,"text":"從這個許次長跟謝義榮交情這麼好到你們的署長跟分署長也交情這麼好然後到你們調查出來你們的調查行政調查的報告說管理方式不是造成同仁離開的直接原因可是你們又講同仁的離開主要是因為單獨從事資訊工作量過於龐大以及壓力太大又缺乏足夠的資源協助"},{"start":5365.852,"end":5388.289,"text":"這不是分署長的管理責任嗎?他工作量過大、壓力過大、沒有資源協助這不是分署長的管理有問題嗎?的確,一定是可是你第一點就是說,謝分署長管理方式不是同仁離開的直接原因"},{"start":5388.789,"end":5416.726,"text":"抱歉委員可能我那一句那一句話比較講得太過簡要沒有講沒有講到這麼的完整對阿因為這樣講讓我們都很擔心啦然後因為這樣講人家看不到阿你說的不是他管理方式讓他選擇離開可是你後面講的東西都是他管理方式有問題那你們現在又講謝芬署長的管理方式情緒控管的確不當"},{"start":5417.506,"end":5418.627,"text":"是啊 確實是這樣子"},{"start":5432.27,"end":5452.499,"text":"整個單位都被他霸凌了也是因為這樣所以他說沒有辦法證明他霸凌這個離開的員工但我現在再一個就是說你們認定的理由裡面第一個不公平對待或過度要求行為第一長工時超時工作早上5點多到下午7、8點"},{"start":5454.147,"end":5470.04,"text":"超過12個小時5點多就要進去這怎麼一回事啊我們今天也是4、5點來的但只有一天我們就受不了了而他是每一天每一天他快要崩潰了"},{"start":5471.981,"end":5497.473,"text":"我們這位離開的同仁非常盡責這是我也很不捨的地方而且他寧願打假卡大家都不知道他為什麼要這麼做你知道嗎 你們第二個調查是說人力配置不合理但是這裡面我講的就是說北分署諮詢室是1加5個承攬人這裡面你們自己寫的報告承攬就是制度面的問題"},{"start":5499.979,"end":5511.232,"text":"職場霸凌的這個原因很難講得清楚但其中一個就是說業務量過大他有苦難言有苦難以申訴然後沒有人可以幫忙做可是他有6個人為什麼沒有人可以幫他做因為依規定承攬人"},{"start":5517.915,"end":5518.175,"text":"現在問題來了以前是派遣"},{"start":5544.068,"end":5548.047,"text":"派遣可不可以指揮監督?要派公司可不可以指揮監督?"},{"start":5549.943,"end":5572.909,"text":"可以那改成承攬我們可不可以對他直接指揮監督要求他協助做什麼反而不行了所以這是問題那派遣還能指揮承攬不可以所以有人在那裡他也不能叫他分擔啊所以這是不是問題當然是問題你們把所有的派遣都拿掉改成承攬"},{"start":5574.689,"end":5577.671,"text":"這制度面出問題耶是是那你要怎麼解決對所以我要跟行政院反映這個問題是因為這是整個我們制度上的問題我知道啊所以大家給聲啦啊我們都不要用派遣啦派遣低薪啦派遣勞動條件差啦"},{"start":5593.462,"end":5594.603,"text":"對公務體系也很糟糕對承攬人員來講也沒有好到哪裡去"},{"start":5611.351,"end":5634.44,"text":"所以我今天在這裡要跟你談的制度面的問題其中最重要一個就是說這個派遣派遣至少在這方面派遣人員還能夠幫如果這個同仁是用的是派遣或許這五個承攬人力變成五個派遣人力他可以指揮監督他還可以請他們協助或許他的工作壓力沒這麼大"},{"start":5637.545,"end":5643.99,"text":"這麼久以來本來以為沒有派遣零派遣是得正結果現在發現零派遣出問題"},{"start":5646.29,"end":5669.2,"text":"對所以委員這也是為什麼我對他的直接督導他的副分署長資訊長以及他的秘書室主任我也予以懲處那你的人事主管為什麼沒有他們最接近他他們最接近他對人事主管為什麼沒有因為員工職場霸凌防自然處理建議作為裡面其中事件通報除了單位主管還有一個是人事主管你們人事主管為什麼沒有處分"},{"start":5670.353,"end":5673.435,"text":"因為1111人力銀行調查發現超過83%的上班族在職場遇過霸凌言語嘲諷佔了57%背後重傷上播謠言佔了將近50%"},{"start":5698.551,"end":5716.768,"text":"然後孤立他大概刻意排擠大概降也是將近50%工作出處刁難46.8%然後這裡面加害者最常見的是只屬主管44.1還沒完喔最重要是女性遇到職場霸凌的比例顯然比男性高出15%那還不是重點我要講的重點是在這裡"},{"start":5724.263,"end":5731.545,"text":"最重要是這樣子被霸凌所任職的公司的產業別最高18.9%是傳產和製造業接下來12%、13%差不了多少的就是媒體出版業、工商業服務以及教育政府機關12.6%"},{"start":5745.655,"end":5770.473,"text":"所以霸凌在公部門在教育部門在政府機關團體部門霸凌的比例根據1111的調查是12.6%幾乎幾乎就是雖然是第四名但是跟第二名第三名差不了多少所以這是我覺得這是我們國家的恥辱啊"},{"start":5771.354,"end":5775.637,"text":"怎麼國家的公務體系、部門、公務機關被霸凌的狀況這麼嚴重,比民間還要更嚴重呢?是不是有一種官場文化使然啊?"},{"start":5788.604,"end":5806.691,"text":"而這種官場文化大家都習以為常都不思改進然後都覺得理所當然就像剛才署長一直覺得說我管理我的部署都是競責在要求競責沒有錯但是態度很重要"},{"start":5807.918,"end":5830.929,"text":"管理也很重要但是溝通的能力也很重要是要這樣子我們知道所以這裡面需要檢討的我想派遣承蘭你們公部門你們負責管理這個職場霸凌的目的事業主管機關結果公部門裡面最嚴重最嚴重那公部門是人事總處嗎"},{"start":5834.32,"end":5838.424,"text":"那該怎麼做回去檢討那民間部門也很嚴重那整個個案的行政調查我們認為昨天調查的文字內容很多不妥然後許次長自以身為調查小組的趙吉仁跟謝一榮交情那麼好也難以服眾謝謝"},{"start":5858.543,"end":5863.369,"text":"謝謝林委員、謝謝部長那接續我們請王一民委員質詢好,謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長"},{"start":5877.233,"end":5878.533,"text":"發聲在你勞動部"},{"start":5905.578,"end":5910.502,"text":"是 所以我昨天道歉了我覺得這件事情真的讓全國民眾看了覺得非常的心痛因為勞動部自己照道理來講你們要做全國最好的表率你才可以有權力有資格"},{"start":5922.87,"end":5941.056,"text":"去勞檢所有的企業單位要求他們做到勞基法裡面各項你們要求的標準結果你們自己都沒有到位我們來看這一位已經逝去的員工他生前這樣的一個情況勞動部裡面都沒有人知道嗎"},{"start":5942.176,"end":5957.254,"text":"我們辦公室發出要求你們提供的從10月22號開始他的上班情況跟這個監視錄影帶看到的情況真的讓人家看得非常的心疼這樣那個影像是他單獨一大早去開門的影像下班的影像"},{"start":5959.637,"end":5985.179,"text":"他的上班時間異於常人都是5點多就到辦公室所有的監視畫面調出來的都是5點多就到辦公室然後他離開的時間有將近7點的也有8點半的你們現在螢幕上看到的這個是他當天早上10月22號5點02分就進了辦公室到了晚上8點35分才離開"},{"start":5987.711,"end":5990.219,"text":"但是他的打卡紀錄是7點11分到5點01分離開"},{"start":5995.916,"end":6014.774,"text":"所有的出勤記錄都跟他實際的狀況不一樣這個就是業界大家說的打假卡一個公務員為什麼要打假卡為什麼這麼的超時上班而且是連續性的每天都是超過12個鐘頭已經都是超過勞基法裡面"},{"start":6018.357,"end":6019.758,"text":"所規範的最高12小時"},{"start":6047.791,"end":6075.288,"text":"還無法掌握嗎?這個員工他生前他的上班的情況還無法掌握嗎?我請人事處長回答一下好請說報告委員11月4號當天發生事件的時候我們人事處那邊就查出來他的一整年的出入到請的記錄那這一年來他完全是正常其中還有7月份他到日本去出國旅遊"},{"start":6075.956,"end":6099.486,"text":"所以最密集的就是最近這段時間他早上5點是從幾號開始是10月22號嗎還是更早之前沒有他更早之前幾月他到底是因為那個刷卡紀錄看起來都是你們不是有調監視器嗎顯然他刷卡的紀錄跟監視器的是不吻合的嘛你們監視器自己看到多久以前"},{"start":6101.974,"end":6116.701,"text":"跟委員報告因為委員當初要求這個監視器我們有跟大樓的我們的那個管理會要求那他的保存的時間一般只有15天所以15天以前的他們並沒有所以你們沒有辦法掌握你們沒有問過他的家人"},{"start":6118.068,"end":6133.761,"text":"家屬的部分其實是有在瞭解他的實際狀況其實我們跟他跟他共同工作的同事我們也瞭解確實他在這個之前也長期都是很早到這個是在目前那個時期的情況這個就是問題之所在"},{"start":6134.301,"end":6154.457,"text":"如果有一個員工他每天都要5點就上班長時間每天超過12個鐘頭這麼長的時間為什麼分署裡面沒有人知道沒有人主動去關心沒有人去問他說你的工作量是怎麼樣是不是需要幫忙他上面的主管都在睡覺嗎"},{"start":6156.168,"end":6171.476,"text":"都沒有人主動去解決他的問題還是覺得這是理所當然壓榨勞工就是這樣子你的事情沒有辦好這就是你該做的事你們到底是什麼樣的企業文化那你們調查清楚了嗎這些主管什麼時候才知道這個員工的上班狀態我要問的是這個"},{"start":6179.735,"end":6203.689,"text":"不是這一位已經輕生的員工?無薪員工?到目前為止我覺得你們的調查不夠仔細不夠深入我這樣一問部長竟然都回答不出來這不是才一個禮拜前發生的事情已經是兩個禮拜以前發生的事情那你有沒有通盤去了解所有的來龍去脈?"},{"start":6205.609,"end":6220.598,"text":"委員我理解起來他的打卡記錄都是正常的就是假的啊對對對對我現在在問你的是你們什麼時候知道說他其實都是那麼早上班然後都是打假卡其實我想如果沒有這次的事件他的主管也都不知道"},{"start":6222.069,"end":6239.9,"text":"那這就很離譜啊一個組織裡面有人這麼早上班所以非常離譜所以我去懲處他的直屬督導他的最身邊的那兩位所以這就是出現了非常大的問題嘛一個組織裡面有一個人長時期這麼操工時工作那麼早到"},{"start":6240.62,"end":6255.95,"text":"然後沒有一個主管發現是沒有發現還是不想處理我想他的指數都哪也許會認為理所當然因為你的工作你就是要完成也許所以我對他們這樣的行為我不能諒解"},{"start":6257.15,"end":6277.86,"text":"我覺得是離譜到極點了離譜到極點所以這個就是不是完全部長你說確認的原因這個有管理上非常嚴重的問題啊人事總處某一部分也講對了這是這個單位在管理上面有非常嚴重的問題你竟然完全沒有感覺末梢神經麻痺"},{"start":6279.164,"end":6279.184,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":6308.453,"end":6308.653,"text":"當然當然當然"},{"start":6335.762,"end":6356.354,"text":"分屬很多同仁抱怨連連然後也透過不同的管道去投訴結果我們辦公室問了你們你們說這個投訴到次長這件事情是假消息我聽了嚇一跳媒體報導的這麼真切你們的回覆是說這媒體亂報導的這是假消息啊"},{"start":6359.036,"end":6376.781,"text":"我沒有說假消息我只說我那邊查不到而已那有沒有這件事呢王安邦市長有沒有跟謝芬署長有談話有約談這件事情是真的還是假的請回答"},{"start":6377.915,"end":6405.521,"text":"委員就是我如果根據部裡的記錄是沒有的可是如果根據外界的這樣指責那麼多的報導那你可以去求證阿王次長你可以去求證王次長阿連這種電話都不能打嗎有沒有跟他求證阿委員我想如果王次長他有需要的話他應該會告訴我啦對所以你們也沒有通電話你也沒去跟他求證這麼重要的一個線索那你們調查報告在寫什麼"},{"start":6407.305,"end":6432.052,"text":"這件事情很重要你知道嗎因為二月份這代表如果分署裡面的同仁二月份已經投訴而且次長已經出面那怎麼會到最後變成不了了之到底處理了什麼那你們怎麼會這一部分都完全不想去掌握也不想去了解呢你們有跟分署長本人確認嗎他有沒有被約談二月份"},{"start":6433.552,"end":6455.223,"text":"約談完之後他再下令叫大家說誰洩密又去查說誰洩密我要跟您澄清二月份他被約談這件事不在我調查小組的調查份為什麼不調查因為他並非我調查小組只有三個重點第一個這個謝榮芬署長有沒有直接霸凌離開的同仁第二個謝榮芬署長有沒有霸凌其他的同仁"},{"start":6455.643,"end":6471.578,"text":"對阿那2月份涉及到他有沒有霸凌其他同仁阿你為什麼要主動排除我們調查起來我們已經有證實他有霸凌其他同仁可是2月份他有沒有跟王安邦見面不是我們調查的重點"},{"start":6472.399,"end":6498.899,"text":"當然是重點啊那代表那個時候同仁已經反應嘛那個時候同仁已經反應代表你勞動部代表你勞動部的次長已經知道我們講說霸凌的處理原則就是要向上通報那今天發生在分署的事件你勞動部如果在2月份已經知道為什麼這段時間你什麼都沒有做什麼都沒有處理你上任我就問你520上任你知道這件事嗎我不知道完全不知道那這就是問題啊"},{"start":6501.141,"end":6518.89,"text":"如果這件事情對於分屬的同仁來講是一件重大的事情他們也希望上級單位幫忙處理結果你520上任你根本就不知道這件事情那不用去查嗎那2月份難道2月份分屬這些同仁的投訴通通就當作什麼這個全部就當作沒有發生啊"},{"start":6523.253,"end":6545.714,"text":"難怪現在你們調查報告出來分署很多同仁情緒還在憤恨不平他覺得從頭到尾勞動部就是漠視他們的一些聲音嘛其實委員他們反映的這些內容都已經披露了啦包括李玉祥議員的臉書都已經披露了但是就調查這件事情我認為次長有沒有去約談分署長這件事情也是很重要的線索"},{"start":6546.614,"end":6567.694,"text":"當然必須在你調查的範圍你們主動排除我覺得非常的詭異不知道為什麼要主動排除這是涉及到你們背後的政治角力還是有什麼政治因素干擾我不知道但是就調查事件的本身那是一個重要的線索如果那個時候分署長就已經被告知應該要處理"},{"start":6569.415,"end":6590.42,"text":"然後勞動部也已經知曉是次長級的人物那為什麼那個時候沒有處理還是那時候有反應次長有跟部長反應但是部長也覺得沒有關係我覺得整件事情要調查就調查個徹底啊你才知道那個環節是出現在哪裡嘛結果你們昨天公佈了這個調查我覺得你們有自己主動去把一些資訊就是剔除掉"},{"start":6592,"end":6620.594,"text":"你就只鎖定你想要交代說這位吳遠的親身跟霸凌事件無關他只是工作壓力太大你們想要造成的效果就是這樣嘛但是你不能去排除他從頭到尾都沒有跟分署長接觸過嗎他所交辦的這個責任他今天要進行的這個計畫不是上面交辦下來的嗎當然都有關係啊那怎麼可以完全去排除呢所以我覺得這件事情喔"},{"start":6622.074,"end":6637.344,"text":"這個勞動部有吃案的嫌疑當分署的同仁已經反映到次長你們沒有就沒有下文你說也沒有記錄什麼都沒有你們現在竟然回應外界說沒有這就是吃案委員我現在也可以用這個案來重啟調查好不好好"},{"start":6638.004,"end":6653.799,"text":"那你就重啟調查你就重啟調查勞動部不能做錯誤的示範不能施案我們現在馬上就是承諾委員我們就2月份王安邦次長有沒有約見謝宜榮分署長我們現在即刻重啟調查是"},{"start":6655.311,"end":6676.503,"text":"你要給外界一個交代啊你要給外界一個交代不可以有次案的事情另外一個我要講的是你們現在所受理的這些案件我要求你們提供你們說你們到目前為止受理的這些植物遭受不法侵害的這些案件呢總共才七件結果你知道你們受理的七件通通都不成立"},{"start":6677.543,"end":6701.524,"text":"不成立 內容不明確如果依你們現在的一個調查的心態跟方法的話投訴100件也沒有用這到底問題出在哪裡之前人家在反映的時候也說分屬沒有這一些事情結果你們現在調查完之後就說這個霸凌案成立怎麼會有這麼大的落差你這些案子你確立你們都是不成立的嗎我請署長回答"},{"start":6703.675,"end":6731.312,"text":"這七件是北分署他受理他們員工的申訴但是他的對象其實是同儕同事跟同事之間我知道同事跟同事之間都沒有我要講的就是說你們今天所公開的資訊沒有一件跟分署長有關結果他霸凌那麼嚴重第二個是即使是同事跟同事之間也沒有一件成立的不覺得很有問題嗎是不是你們的標準太嚴格還是調查不仔細"},{"start":6731.952,"end":6759.73,"text":"委員報告因為我們所有分署在執行都是依照我們的這個安全防護要點都是有外部委員加入我們的調查但是召集人是你們自己人啊對召集人是依照我們的我要求你們要重新去檢視喔都不成立其實是不太合理的喔如果從這次我們就看到說之前你們說這個分署長沒有問題結果認真調查起來霸凌案是成立了喔另外一個最後我要講很多的基層公務員也擦了蛋"},{"start":6760.35,"end":6760.87,"text":"這兩個意見您同意嗎"},{"start":6783.505,"end":6783.966,"text":"提高位階你們要多久的時間?"},{"start":6798.506,"end":6801.391,"text":"文字上需要再做一些修正,我們再回來再做一些檢討"},{"start":6814.65,"end":6816.551,"text":"接續我們請劉建國委員發言劉建國發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":6854.862,"end":6881.502,"text":"來有請部長蔡署長你並上來吧我也好部長辛苦了但這件事情從11月4號發生到現在如果再處理不好你會越來越苦勞動部上上下下的同仁也一樣會越來越苦會發生這樣的憾事"},{"start":6882.659,"end":6882.779,"text":"當然當然"},{"start":6913.405,"end":6937.074,"text":"會有這麼多執政黨的地方議員到現在還窮追不捨也有執政黨的委員也看不下去所以今天蘇昭偉排這樣的專案報告當然就是要趕快來釐清不要讓這樣的憾事再持續發生下去"},{"start":6938.462,"end":6967.391,"text":"但是我們真的有這樣的決心跟魄力跟喚醒確實不要讓這樣的憾事再發生下去嗎?顯然在這個報告裡面我說真的是看不出來真的是看不出來我在講我們的許傳勝次長有特別提到嘛鄭林分組長有凌晨1點、5點船內在交辦事情"},{"start":6968.578,"end":6991.778,"text":"而且還規定在10分鐘內要回復10分鐘內如果沒有回復,隔天就叫到辦公室去罵這是你們的報告是次長所講的嘛,對不對好,針對這一位已經失去生命的同仁你們報告裡面說這個副處長對他沒有霸凌但在這個次長上他確實有霸凌的行為這不是很衝突"},{"start":6995.612,"end":6999.137,"text":"不是很矛盾委員我剛剛已經解釋了齁可以讓我解釋嗎"},{"start":7001.721,"end":7029.58,"text":"我再講一下啦我一定給你時間解釋啦因為你講說他是因為領導統一的風格嘛對不對都在你報告裡面那與同仁互信破裂還要繼續執行職務恐有爭議且對機關生意有重大之影響建議先行調整職務所以分所長的調理限職是在他的領導統一不是讓同仁命上在這個辦公室"},{"start":7030.541,"end":7036.784,"text":"而且我們只是擔心他繼續執行職務影響到機關的聲譽是這樣嗎委員就是說他是一個機關的最高首長他的任何行為一定會影響到每一個人所以他有對一級主管會影響到每一個人嘛所以一定包含這個11月4號在自己的辦公室結束生命的這個同仁我想透過層層傳導也會的"},{"start":7059.048,"end":7083.355,"text":"對嘛對,可是不是直接原因不是直接他霸凌他他中間還隔著兩位主管就是我這一次也進行懲處的副分署長以及秘書室主任這就是這兩位主管才是直接督導這位離開的同仁那謝分署長的確有對其他的一級主管進行霸凌可是他是透過層層傳導的機制傳導到我們離開的同仁身上"},{"start":7088.076,"end":7114.646,"text":"應該是這麼說部長我覺得你這麼講我可以理解你對這事情的認知跟感受還有你在公部門的職場的相關一些經驗但是有些事情是已經是整個系統已經出的很嚴重的問題對我覺得是要凸顯系統性的問題才去做這樣的調查這個系統性問題應該也不是只有北分署是的連老花署本身問題也非常嚴重"},{"start":7117.148,"end":7144.489,"text":"要不要問一下我們的署長在他的任內他的任內中副署長還有相關的有多少同仁都被都被提早退休有多少個科長級的現在從九職等八職等自己調到地方的區公所署長要不要對外說明一下署已經出問題分署哪有不出問題的道理"},{"start":7146.806,"end":7161.978,"text":"有沒有跟委員報告齁我們在今年如果以今年齁我們大概是有3名同仁退休對那其中都是借齡對對都是借齡不是提前退休就是達到退休的條件"},{"start":7162.878,"end":7184.611,"text":"中戶也不是中戶署長也不是體檢退休薛組長也不是體檢退休陳峰署長也不是體檢退休都不是你把握明確的跟委員會講對他們就是依法退休對是依法退休不是要做體檢退休你要看這幾天有其他的機關被提早退休引鬧的灰黑洋洋喔"},{"start":7186.189,"end":7206.757,"text":"跟委員報告所以這三位都不是提早退休跟委員報告他們不是被提早退休那個是因為他們都有各自所以他們是自願提早退休都有各自因為每一位我都跟他懇談所以他們是自願的提前退休嘛對不對不是借領嘛不是借領是嗎是好所以這個因素我們在討論吼那是不是還有很多包含重規組訓練組有多位科長"},{"start":7209.81,"end":7230.492,"text":"已經降調只是已經請調降到降級然後調到其他區公所去有沒有有幾位有幾位就好我們今年有兩位是有商調到其他機關對但是他的商調了解的原因有些真的是因為家庭上的因素或是其他的因素他的主管都有去"},{"start":7232.947,"end":7251.316,"text":"他上吊他吊到那個單位有沒有自己降級才有辦法叫到那個單位有嘛對不對因為這個是有這個情形是有嘛是你說今年只有兩位你們在你們在中規組還有訓練組只有兩位而已嗎這兩組只有兩位今年對今年就兩位啊去年呢"},{"start":7255.567,"end":7277.677,"text":"那個在去年齁去年在評調到其他機關是有16位16位對評調到其他機關16位16位所以署本部這樣這一兩年來講總共已經提前退休然後調離現職然後明明總總啦反正就這樣加起來總共有幾位"},{"start":7279.5,"end":7299.854,"text":"我們大概如果以今年到目前大概有總共是36位這裡面含這個約用人員、臨時人員你什麼時候到今年?去年到今年是不是?只有今年只有今年就票了36位?36位阿去年有沒有辦法馬上做報告?對,去年有總共是有65位總共有65位嘛36加65,101嘛對不對你們離開了101"},{"start":7306.358,"end":7329.961,"text":"對老化署有期待的同仁,你覺得這樣正常嗎?組長你自己跟部長講,跟委員會講,你覺得這樣正常嗎?跟委員報告,因為他的離開的原因真的是很多啦,有些是退休,有些是考試,所以他有離開,他離開有這個原因,所以你認定是正常就對了?這每一位我們其實都不能看,就是說在職場上,在公部的職場上,他是一個算是一個正常的樣態,你要回答我是這樣是不是?"},{"start":7331.496,"end":7332.717,"text":"我要回到昨天記者會我看部長的說法裡面有一段話齁"},{"start":7348.205,"end":7374.975,"text":"認為有制度性人力缺乏問題是這樣嗎我想我在這個委會不只一次提起當然有人力缺乏的問題嘛所以我也希望部長要積極爭取這個人力的補給嘛但是如果像老花署這樣的單位自己的署本部單位兩年就掉了不到兩年就這樣請掉提前退休一百零一位然後我們再看到北分署"},{"start":7376.169,"end":7376.729,"text":"所以部長你講的系統性問題確實如此啊"},{"start":7406.84,"end":7427.348,"text":"確實如此啊那跟你制度性人力缺乏有什麼關係而且你知道喔北溫署是17個主管桃枝腰腰的你書本部有幾個主管還有副書長級的他需要提前退休還有幾個組長還有志願將級到地方公所去"},{"start":7436.101,"end":7448.166,"text":"誰會希望說在中央單位待好好又跑到地方的區公所去怎麼會有這個狀況部長你有深刻去理解、深刻去調查、深刻去知道到底原因何在嗎"},{"start":7449.765,"end":7472.401,"text":"委員我想喔就是這個管理風格的問題確實是要檢討啦是究竟是管理風格導致人留不住還是說這個勞動署本身是因為勞動條件太差這只有管理風格問題嗎如果是所謂的管理風格問題就會回到北溫署長的身上發生了這樣的憾事嗎在他的領導不統一之下嘛對不對"},{"start":7473.001,"end":7492.617,"text":"這就是當然就是署本身領導者的責任嘛當然署長他的管理風格恰不恰當我會要他檢討好嗎對我也在這一次也一遍把他送考機會了我們會在這裡面來檢討他好不好這是考機問題嗎當然考機裡面你管理不當也是一個問題啊也是一個評分的標準"},{"start":7496.708,"end":7510.903,"text":"從署本部一直到分署被分署發生這樣的事情它是考機問題嗎考機裡面包含了對你管理的這個你怎麼去管理這個機關這當然也是一個部長你到勞動部時間真的不長啊"},{"start":7512.064,"end":7530.326,"text":"我知道很多事情你還要再去摸索再去理解嘛但是有時候有一件有發生這樣的憾事反而可以讓你更快速的瞭解到勞動部上上下下到底出了什麼樣的嚴重性的問題嘛對不對但是有時候當你知道這問題所在的時候你就是該斷則斷了"},{"start":7534.661,"end":7555.195,"text":"該動就要折斷了如果這單純是一個領導統一出這個問題我覺得我覺得這樣的延伸會很可怕應該也不是只有勞化署因為時間的關係我們從勞化署的世界裡面可以看到勞動部真的是真的是很嚴重出現的結構性問題最後再給部長看一個數據我為什麼講113.446"},{"start":7563.038,"end":7575.089,"text":"我們都知道是81嘛,北溫署這兩年,不到兩年時間有81位的同仁,包含17位主管要調禮他其實他真正的數字是82了"},{"start":7578.038,"end":7599.552,"text":"就包含11月4號這位這位生命不見的同仁他也有要請調他也走不了因為他同仁寫這篇文章我不想護送請部長你自己過目我都有看如果他當時請調順利的話"},{"start":7602.674,"end":7622.568,"text":"他當時如果不要因為跟同仁彼此之間這種感情的羈絆稍停就對了或許他請掉離開他是有生命的離開他今天是他今天也算是離開了啦但是是生命喪失的離開"},{"start":7629.577,"end":7648.726,"text":"我最後是不是請銓敘部跟人事總處兩位單位來一下好不好你們這個一個單位、一個機關、一個機構人員異常的異動站在人事的管理上你們都沒有相關的預警機制嗎"},{"start":7651.517,"end":7673.556,"text":"還是都是後知後覺我們如果保障這個辛苦考進來的這些國考的這些公務人員可以在職場上得到一定程度的這樣的一個保障而不是因為他們的主管機關領導同意出了問題然後就讓這個單位可以好像幾乎快瓦解了"},{"start":7675.629,"end":7675.749,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":7706.129,"end":7734.814,"text":"你們上網公告是什麼資料?就是辭職,辭職嘛,啊調離的都沒有嗎?調離的部分我們現在正在跟,我們為了要讓資料更加精準,因為我們部裡面只有現在才要做?是因為這個事件才要做?不是,不是,在我們之前就已經在跟人事總處在密集的開會你們的之前是多久之前?從今年的6月份開始,我們就有在處理這件事情你們6月份到現在還沒有辦法把這樣的機制建立完成?"},{"start":7735.222,"end":7764.563,"text":"因為這個部分涉及到WebHR的這個系統的建構我們要把它在系統上面我們已經有樹花部了我們已經走到AI了創新行動內閣了你們從六月討論到現在連一個掌控所有單位的禮職的這樣的一個系統沒辦法建置起來現在正在努力啦我們大概預計是在明年會完成要到明年"},{"start":7765.43,"end":7784.738,"text":"因為這部分涉及到系統要徵修、要發包、要...你們有系統可以馬上查閱到離職的嘛,請辭的嘛,對不對你們有這個系統,然後要有另外一個系統,就是調職的還要到明年才能夠建設完成,而且從6月討論到現在"},{"start":7788.441,"end":7806.956,"text":"我們全序部的是全序審定的部分那人事總處那邊會有未被確保他有未送審人員這兩個系統加起來就可以把整個機關有送審還沒送審的人做一個完整的呈現那這兩個系統目前是不相容我們希望把他兩個系統能夠整合在一起所以到明年了我們盡量"},{"start":7810.031,"end":7839.198,"text":"要到明年 盡量希望能夠提前啦 這個部分我們不堅持很努力可以提前多早啊 時間到了 一個月可不可以一個月不行啦 那我到時候再拜託兩位召委我們再排特別針對你們的針對這些事情的整個疫情機制看怎樣來做回報好不好 OK一個月內我就請他們兩位召委一定要排來做這樣處理 好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":7840.444,"end":7841.585,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝劉建國委員休息10分鐘"},{"start":7868.75,"end":7869.631,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8538.854,"end":8540.475,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 我們請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":8559.306,"end":8585.171,"text":"委員好部長好部長我還是針對我們這個勞動部這個北分署霸凌的這個事件那我有看到你們的行政調查那我一個很好奇就是說這件事在11月4號發生那你們的調查竟然寫說11月8號你們是透過這個媒體才知道確實是這樣子嗎我看到的那個媒體對"},{"start":8587.031,"end":8588.451,"text":"媒體知道什麼?拿我們的那個報告給我一下好不好?"},{"start":8612.653,"end":8637.447,"text":"跟委員報告因為11月4號我們接獲訊息之後有跟家屬有聯繫那家屬跟我們強調說這個要低調處理是對所以一直都在處理這個當事人的狀況所以勞動部當時還不清楚我們已經都部長你是什麼時候知道這件事的"},{"start":8637.987,"end":8657.051,"text":"我11月4號就知道了當然當然當然我是看到你們的這個報告上面是這樣寫說勞動部是11月8號是透過這個社群媒體才知道這件事應該是說他那個敘述是11月8號社群媒體發文啦他從那邊開始敘述起啦就是11月8號社群媒體上有發文對然後"},{"start":8665.113,"end":8690.368,"text":"我們針對這個開始去進行了解所以你們時間11月4號發生的時候你們都完全沒有去了解為什麼這個同仁會選擇了斷自己這樣的一個事情那時候我們讓北分署跟老花署自己去調查因為他們跟家屬接觸的過程裡面家屬希望低調所以那時候應該都有進行溝通"},{"start":8691.989,"end":8712.824,"text":"另外一個就是說剛剛也有很多委員特別提到就是在今年的2月份基層在2月份都已經陳情了那這個王次長也有約談這個北分署的分署長就是說聽說是喝咖啡聊這件事那這件事後續好像就不了了之"},{"start":8713.985,"end":8734.486,"text":"好像也沒有做什麼樣的．甚至部長你說勞動部這邊完全都沒有這樣的一個案件存在嘛 對不對是事情發生之後．對我了解起來部裡沒有這樣的記錄．對那如果是這樣的話確實剛剛委員講的末梢神經真的是我覺得真的是出問題欸那你覺得為什麼"},{"start":8735.58,"end":8751.352,"text":"基層這個同仁都已經陳情了那為什麼都沒有列案呢這個就是因為當時陳情的對象是王安邦次長是對那為什麼王安邦次長沒有把他反映然後去列案這我不瞭解因為當時不是我誇張的就是"},{"start":8754.995,"end":8779.415,"text":"既然基層都已經陳情然後次長找這個署長這個北分署署長來談談完之後沒有處理也就罷了那這個分署長還就是要去找看是誰洩密那我覺得真的是這個我這件事情發生之後我真的非常希望就是我們勞動部甚至其他的部會一樣"},{"start":8781.604,"end":8808.917,"text":"真的要建立起一個基層員工基層同仁的這個陳情要有一個機制而不是陳情之後你又交給當事人又交給當事人去處理這件事你部長如果以你的話你覺得這樣妥當嗎當然不妥當對那未來如果還有這樣的事情發生你們要怎麼處理那絕對是也是也是徹查對啊要來那你們現在有建立一個機制了嗎"},{"start":8811.493,"end":8812.274,"text":"有押案、施案的狀況我們要如何處置?"},{"start":8830.58,"end":8850.712,"text":"我想委員就是對我們對於這個基層的同仁有申訴的話當然我們就是會尋這個什麼員工防護小組然後那看我們會進行調查調查之後然後看如何處理這個其實本來就有機制啦"},{"start":8851.092,"end":8861.111,"text":"阿機制你現在如果有機制的話怎麼會變成是次長次長又約分署長分署長後面再來說是誰洩密然後後面就不了了之阿不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":8863.291,"end":8891.959,"text":"委員對因為這不是正式他正因為是主要是次長當時也沒有去把他列案那我也不知道當時為什麼他沒有去列案這當然就無從處理啊會變這樣所以這是一個大也是一個大問題是沒有錯對可是當時就是沒有列案啊那那應該要詢問當事人為什麼當時沒有列案所以我覺得這個未來也是要是一個檢討的一個方向啦另外我想請教就是說剛剛也有委員特別提到"},{"start":8892.839,"end":8911.433,"text":"北分署長跟我們的那個許次長以前是同事嘛那你們列列的這個調查這個調查小組那很多的這個小組的成員跟這個可能跟北分署長這個可能關係也都不錯那如果說你成立這樣的一個調查小組來調查我覺得"},{"start":8913.615,"end":8936.5,"text":"因為基層也有很多人反映說其實這樣調查結果其實很多人也會覺得說跟事實可能有一些出路所以我也想要請部長針對這樣子的一個調查小組也許你們要成立這樣的調查小組你不知道說這個跟這個當事人是什麼樣的關係也許不知道如果知道之後我覺得你們應該也要做一個調整"},{"start":8938.206,"end":8962.739,"text":"對委員就是說其實我們的所有政務官都會秉公辦理的啦不應該去就是說好避險當然為了利益迴避我當時請許傳聖次長其實因為許傳聖次長雖然有跟謝分署長有過舊事可是他也沒有跟他有直接的聯繫啦所以而且許傳聖次長本身就督導勞派署"},{"start":8963.76,"end":8976.489,"text":"只有他才了解這個體系的問題這是為什麼我會請他召集的原因對這體制上也是必須如此啊我總不能越過他請別的次長去召集調查這個是我的困難是請您能夠諒解這樣那當然"},{"start":8981.058,"end":8997.285,"text":"那當然這個後來這個網路上爆料說認為說這個許長勝次長跟謝分署長有舊事可是說真的對我的認知我也不認為許次長是一位會徇私的人啦他也是蠻公正蠻大公無私的"},{"start":8997.865,"end":9024.661,"text":"那所以他才有這個來當我們的次長嗎所以部長這件事其實我會覺得說這個你們從上到下真的確實真的要好好的檢討如果說一個員工如果從一個這個同仁可以這樣子長期時間我剛剛看就是說你們這個單位就是他有公務人員的身份就只有一位其他都是承染人員嗎"},{"start":9025.902,"end":9048.18,"text":"那如果是這樣的話我剛剛我有聽部長講說確實要從根本去做一些改進如果全部都是這樣子的話全部的壓力都是在這個公務人員身上那我不知道說你們目前有多少業務是大部分都是承染就是全部都外包出去你們自己有做一個統計嗎我想請署長回答好不好"},{"start":9053.513,"end":9077.636,"text":"跟委員報告我們方案署因為業務真的是非常龐雜我們現在編制人力就是我們正式公務員大概只有700多位我們的業用人員就是臨時人員大概1000多位其他我們大概現在有接近2000位的承攬人力也就是我們每4位只有一位正式公務員其實這個業務其實跟我們人力的編制的結構其實非常的落差非常大"},{"start":9078.537,"end":9106.495,"text":"這部分我們覺得這也是必須要去檢討所以這個確實是從根本真的我覺得真的要好好的去做檢討啦可能也要跟行政院這邊真的確實把這麼重要然後你說四位四位就只有一位是公務人員其他可能就是承攬的就是非常的誇張啦而且照道理如果根據法律的話根據那法規的話每一個分署都應該要一個正式的治安人員是"},{"start":9107.815,"end":9125.326,"text":"對,結果我這一位離開的同仁他本身還是勞法署派來的是兼任的是他不是北分署正式的編制喔那顯然就是我們每一個分署其實也都缺乏一位正式的治安人員那我們的治安業務量又非常非常龐大因為後來"},{"start":9127.687,"end":9155.04,"text":"這兩三年來包括很多外部會的要求對所以都是非常累積啦對非常累積性的確實我覺得說真的勞法署剛剛署長講的業務非常的龐大那不只是勞動部勞法署其實其他單位應該也都是有類似這樣的一個狀況所以我接下來我是不是可以請這個今天人事人事這邊應該有"},{"start":9156.421,"end":9168.531,"text":"有過來嗎今天人事處人總不是是我們今天沒有那個行政院這邊的好"},{"start":9175.168,"end":9198.076,"text":"行政總處是不是可以針對所有公務體系、公務機關、公務人員或者是各單位、公務人員或者是承攬,你們自己有去做一個統計嗎?到底有多少的單位,然後確實有人力的需求,可是就因為人力不足,所以就需要用承攬或用約聘僱這樣的一個方式。"},{"start":9199.433,"end":9223.919,"text":"報告委員我想說首先還是要講一下其實我們要運用哪一種人力類型其實都是要看照他的那個工作的那個內容還有他指揮監督的必要性那當然理解發展署他目前的人力結構有三種比如說像職員、約用或是他們的承攬人力但是相信他們應該都是基於工作的需要去選擇他們要的人力類型比如說是不是可能"},{"start":9224.699,"end":9251.972,"text":"也要了解一下發展署他們現在在承攬人力上他們大概都是請他們做什麼樣的工作對就是說承攬承攬的人員其實你也不能賦予他很大的一個責任啊是對啊所以我我覺得這個真的是從根本要去做一個解決今天會發生這樣的事情第一個可能也許工作量真的確實非常的大那再來就是說職場的霸凌我也同意就是說"},{"start":9253.353,"end":9263.412,"text":"真的勞動部這邊真的要從根本去做一個解決如果今天不做不從根本做一個解決我覺得這個還是會有第二件的這樣的類似的狀況來發生"},{"start":9266.055,"end":9286.48,"text":"那我也希望就是說這個這邊我們人事總處這邊真的確實也要反映所有的公務單位如果真的需要正式的公務人員就是說有需要的話你就是真的要把它編制下去而不是用承攬的那承攬的所有的壓力就全部在這個機關這個單位剛剛講的這個單位"},{"start":9291.282,"end":9310.116,"text":"資訊單位這個資訊是就只有一個公務就是正式的公務人員其他都是這個承攬人員所以我覺得說把所有的壓力都放在這個這個正式的公務人員身上其實我也覺得說真的非常的不合適所以我覺得是所有人事體系應該要全部做一個總體檢"},{"start":9313.456,"end":9340.633,"text":"其實發展署他們本身是有資訊式的就我們了解但是目前各分署他是沒有資訊單位那看到按照他的發展所的組織法規看起來他們的資訊業務應該都是偏向向上級中到三級發展署那所以這塊就是其實還是看看我們可以看看發展署他們怎麼去因為這件事情然後去檢討他們內部的就是比如說像他們的資源配置跟人力配置"},{"start":9340.913,"end":9341.113,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":9371.552,"end":9375.614,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩勞動部和部長"},{"start":9382.864,"end":9403.384,"text":"部長好我想一位年輕公務員之死會引起全國這麼大的軒然之波應該是超過預期造成的影響那看了部長的這些過程跟所做的報告大家認為還是有需要麻煩部長"},{"start":9406.307,"end":9421.122,"text":"繼續針對這位年輕公務員之死要有更多的檢討也希望能夠做出更妥善的因應跟處理這是一開始的時候要請部長針對這個過程希望給國人有更好的一個交代"},{"start":9422.143,"end":9447.904,"text":"今天要跟部長討論兩個事情首先是簡單的帶過勞工健康檢查資料跟預防醫學的部分第二部分就是針對這個個案其實牽涉的範圍非常的廣泛包括公務人員的休假時間的保障跟心理輔導的資源能不能夠將來有機會去避免這樣類似的案件再度的發生"},{"start":9449.465,"end":9466.095,"text":"有關於這個勞工健檢資料的落實用以來作為慢性病防治的可行性我們期待的是從目前的這個政策跟執行裡面我們知道所有的僱主要僱用勞工的時候一開始都要施行體科檢查"},{"start":9467.216,"end":9495.625,"text":"那在他在職的時候呢都需要後續的健康檢查那這個健康檢查他有相關的資料呢最後都要報告到這個主管機關來做核定或是被查那我們很期待這些的資料如果將來可以跟衛福部這邊有更好的連結讓衛福部在推動888健康計畫的時候能夠運用這樣的資料讓全民的"},{"start":9496.725,"end":9497.206,"text":"當然當然,我們會來跟衛福部討論"},{"start":9517.319,"end":9539.653,"text":"好 那我們等一下臨時提案也會把這部分請大家共同來確認好的好 那第二部分呢就是有關於剛剛所提到的這個公務人員的自殺大家不知道還有沒有印象其實在106年107年的時候考試院全序部就曾經做過報告"},{"start":9540.914,"end":9560.144,"text":"在當年公務人員的五大死因裡面第一項是癌症第二項是心臟疾病第三項就是自殺那當年自殺有14人高居第三位那從占比來看公務人員跟一般的民眾比起來"},{"start":9561.064,"end":9589.973,"text":"他是有三倍之多所以很顯然這個是一個很重要的問題在106、107年都有相關的資料很可惜的是後來就沒有相關資料持續的披露那這部分我們不知道未來有沒有機會再做相關的披露那當然這個需要請考試院或全序部來做這部分資料的披露那"},{"start":9591.314,"end":9606.344,"text":"抱歉我可不可以先請教一下我們這個程序部有沒有長官可以來麻煩針對這部分程序部後續可以做哪一些的內容的披露嗎"},{"start":9607.245,"end":9636.396,"text":"報告委員 這個部裡面有統計到今年的8月為止因為有一些這個自殺的腐敘的案件呢它報送的程序會大概要1到2個月的一個落差所以我們統計到今年的8月大概就我們的觀察從106、107乃至於到2012和今年的8月之前每年的人數沒有太大的變化大約一年當中都是在20來人左右"},{"start":9637.136,"end":9651.907,"text":"那今年1到8月是17人,所以數字上沒有增加或是減緩的趨勢是,還有個案了解他自殺的原因或者是有沒有潛在可能跟今天的個案有類似的可能性的機會"},{"start":9653.651,"end":9678.06,"text":"因為報到我們部裡面來的我們就是針對自殺除非機關會報送說是要因公的這個自殺案件那不然一般的自殺案件就是用病故或意外死亡那所以我們看不出來他的原因那如果報了因公的案件我們才會去探究說他這樣的自殺是不是跟這個職務上的一個壓力或者是說過勞有關"},{"start":9679.58,"end":9684.111,"text":"那這樣的案件報送過來的並不多大概都是用一般的病或意外死亡報送過來"},{"start":9686.294,"end":9709.131,"text":"聽起來有點不是很完整所以我相信我會持續的針對這些內容做進一步的了解看未來如果我們可以避免或者是我剛剛所提到的這個宣傳大波如果我們能夠從這些個案裡面去檢討希望能夠避免未來持續發生類似的個案好 謝謝謝偉"},{"start":9711.272,"end":9736.729,"text":"那其實勞動部本身然後包括這個何部長我們在勞動部裡面也看到說有提撥相關的這個持續推動員工協助的方案那每一年呢是會有這個有45萬元的這個預算那這部分其實以前勞動部做的成績還蠻好的因為我們這個從行政院的人事行政總處看到歷年的得獎"},{"start":9737.89,"end":9762.587,"text":"告訴我們說其實至少在110年的時候勞動部還是得到優等獎那我不清楚的就是說我們在得獎的這個呃呈現裡面跟後面我們所聽到的這種落差未來勞動部本身應該有什麼樣的一種自我檢討的可能性"},{"start":9764.548,"end":9777.435,"text":"謝謝委員我昨天在記者會我有提到就是其實即便連今年我們的員工EAP方案都還是優等的那可是很當然就不幸的發生這樣的事情那也凸顯"},{"start":9778.916,"end":9802.05,"text":"我們這個實際落實上是不是也有問題那當然所以我們也啟動了這一個要精進的方案其實從我本來就規劃從明年開始現在已經正在辦採購就是希望及時提供心理醫師心理諮商以及精神科醫師就醫的實際支持就說你打電話去馬上就找得到"},{"start":9802.63,"end":9803.511,"text":"職場上面那個員工之間"},{"start":9830.512,"end":9852.447,"text":"同仁之間能不能彼此分享支持然後能夠遇到問題然後甚至能幫忙轉介然後及時就醫甚至一個最重要的要克服那一種汙名化的問題我想委員您是醫師您非常清楚到精神科就醫至今在臺灣還是被汙名化的"},{"start":9853.067,"end":9874.856,"text":"所以這是一個很嚴重的大家都不重視心理衛生的狀態所以你有這一種甚至你有自殺的念頭事實上那本來就應該就醫了那其實是應該要去就醫的謝謝部長這樣的回答我相信所有的單位不管是在哪一個機關都應該有類似的機制存在才有辦法讓"},{"start":9875.996,"end":9888.62,"text":"所有的同仁都能夠得到彼此之間的支持跟互相的關懷不過有關於上一次有跟部長所質詢的離線權的問題離線權的確那個時候部長也有討論到說因為已經有相當的規範告訴我們在於"},{"start":9897.522,"end":9913.34,"text":"勞工針對僱主非正常的工作時間要求要隨時來恢復相關的這個主管的要求的時候其實是可以透過這種勞資的協商方式而比較難法制化"},{"start":9914.922,"end":9928.757,"text":"發生這樣的事情我相信跟離線權之間是否能夠有效的法制化還是有關聯性所以期待我們能夠麻煩部長這邊尤其是其他的勞動階層有機會繼續來考慮法制化的部分"},{"start":9934.784,"end":9957.482,"text":"這部分當然我們很期待勞動部要持續的來加強這個勞資雙方對於勞工下班被要求工作的這個權利跟規範要更多大力的宣導因為很有可能大家對這樣的這種離線權的這種處理模式還不是非常清楚這個部分也麻煩部長能夠持續來演繹"},{"start":9959.864,"end":9969.417,"text":"那當然除了勞工朋友以外其實公務人員能不能有類似的比照未來在離線權的部分"},{"start":9970.854,"end":9990.339,"text":"如何能夠有權來拒絕主管在非正常的工作時間裡面的工作要求那這部分可能就需要人事總處或者是考試院這邊是不是有什麼指引或有協商的機制來處理這個公務人員離線權這部分的處理模式"},{"start":9997.219,"end":10018.388,"text":"報告委員依據公務員服務法我們目前的規範的精神因為公務員現在它是跟國家是公法上的職務關係那一般來講就是要提供民眾的不間斷的公共服務所以在下班時間如果真的有急要的公務的話我們還是必須要做處理"},{"start":10019.068,"end":10040.708,"text":"所以我們之前在研修服務法的時候確實也有考量到離線權這樣的一個趨勢但是因為在公部門的部分它有提供公共服務的這樣的一個需求所以離線權這個部分可能要再進一步的觀察才能夠考量是不是要在公務部門放進服務法的規範"},{"start":10042.469,"end":10059.567,"text":"是 這個可以理解不過也希望能夠未來在要件的部分可以更明確一些您剛剛所提到的內容是大家都可以理解的所以這部分也麻煩考試院、全序部跟人事總處能不能針對這部分再多演繹好 謝謝"},{"start":10065.643,"end":10074.37,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那接續我們請林業勤委員執行邱正軍委員執行完畢之後我們處理臨時提案有請何部長跟那個雷司長"},{"start":10103.342,"end":10119.773,"text":"會長早上應該都一直被問了因為11月4號發生這些事情我想大家都很難過可是事件之後也有民眾向我們辦公室在陳情表示這名公務人員本來他在生前就遭受到職場霸凌他定調是這樣"},{"start":10121.234,"end":10148.625,"text":"而且他正在研擬一份該屬的政府的標案,過程當中不斷的受到推薦,為了滿足主管要求就反復修,那當然就會產生了很多公實的問題。所以想問部長這邊,雖然剛剛修方委員有問過,你們11月4號發生這件事情,自殺、死亡事件,那勞動部什麼時候開始做調查?還有是不是等到新聞才有動作?我講的是調查。"},{"start":10151.479,"end":10180.618,"text":"嗯,這並不是等到新聞才有動作的,而是本來才有動作對,什麼時候我們開始啟動調查對,我們是11月8號11月8號才開始啟動調查那再續問部長,因為按照我們的自殺防治法第11條這個事件發生後,勞動部有沒有主動跟自殺防治通報系統做通報或是有報警或警察做通報當時有報警有沒有跟我們的自殺防治的這個通報系統做通報"},{"start":10181.564,"end":10185.186,"text":"在事發的時候我們北分署的人事室主任跟秘書室主任"},{"start":10209.144,"end":10209.164,"text":"好．"},{"start":10228.735,"end":10245.384,"text":"部長想問一下按照我們的自殺防治法第6條第一項規定的防治工作裡邊我不知道勞動部有沒有弱勢就是你們辦理的自殺防治教育裡邊參加同仁占比例有多少還有你們有提供心理諮商的管道嗎每年的使用人數"},{"start":10249.81,"end":10250.67,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":10281.707,"end":10298.562,"text":"上本案重從民眾來提到的時候他就是有超時工作上部長剛剛前面有委員質詢你也講說打假卡的問題表示他們工作量真的很大他只好呢先符合你們勞動法相關法規先去打了卡又再"},{"start":10299.522,"end":10318.799,"text":"繼續回來工作甚至下班後還要回覆訊息有時候假日真的是還沒有登記的時候還是回去工作所以我先問全序部這種未經登記自行加班的狀況對公務人員特別是地方政府局處部會人員以及各級機關辦理這樣的採購業務或是計算薪資終點的人員這種狀況你們有去了解嗎"},{"start":10325.645,"end":10346.144,"text":"我可不可以借一點時間我稍微澄清一下其實我們部裡絕對不允許是不允許員工這樣打假卡沒有這個是不允許的可是工作量多到這種狀況的時候你要叫他怎麼辦呢這就是問題所以這就是我們這位員工真的太令人不捨"},{"start":10347.445,"end":10375.069,"text":"對,他真的太...那你有沒有關心到主管就是交給他太多太多的工作以致於他沒有辦法負荷啊這就是我們要去檢討的地方可是我是說制度上打假卡是不對的那我們也不允許這樣的行為可是卻存在這樣的行為這是我們要檢討的地方是,我覺得如果勞動部都做不到的話你不用講說其他的企業都常有這樣的狀況了因為你是一個主管機關欸是,當然當然好,那群聚部"},{"start":10378.024,"end":10399.857,"text":"根據公務員服務法第12條的規定加班它的定義其實是長官基於業務需要指派同仁在正常的上班時間以外延長工作時間那這樣的定義的之下其實是長官指派同仁才可以做加班的動作那當然我們也了解公務同仁有一些"},{"start":10400.457,"end":10407.983,"text":"主管要去關懷同仁知道同仁的工作情況之下主管就要去調整工作好讓同仁不要超時的加班我們是希望達成這樣的效果"},{"start":10429.298,"end":10452.131,"text":"市長不是員工要超時他勢必就變成要這樣因為工作量大到這樣的時候你要叫他有些像這個標案還有急迫性的那他死的他就是必須要去做那一樣問全序部這邊公益加班事前要上系統去申請可是主管不許可的話怎麼辦可以申請請你們現在去指導嗎"},{"start":10453.688,"end":10479.084,"text":"這個部分是因為它是屬於這個機關的行政管理措施如果同仁就是有不服這個或是覺得不恰當的話他可以去進行申訴走申訴的這樣一個流程好你說用走申訴那另外我要問加班費是事前編列如果請完為止的話剩下的時數強迫補休可是沒時間休啊因為工作量大這樣年底一筆勾銷那這個問題是很多年討論多年了怎麼解決"},{"start":10480.536,"end":10500.812,"text":"公務員報告因為這部分是在公務員保障法有規範那我這邊就是待會回答一下如果說是這個加班時數不能用這個加班費來補償的話那就是會進到用平時的獎勵的方式喔大概透過一段時間因為我周遭真的不管是親人朋友都有很多共敵"},{"start":10501.392,"end":10518.435,"text":"每次這個超過的通通都是算自願奉獻給國家以外那種過時的勞力人真的是會很崩潰的是面對到這樣的一個工作環境對外已經對民眾的很多的要求對內有一些工作量這麼大他怎麼能夠去"},{"start":10519.738,"end":10547.723,"text":"滿足所以就很遺憾全系部還是沒有講出一些積極的作為來處理那過去我們去看111的人力銀行的調查裡面83%的上班族都曾經遭遇到霸凌尤其是職屬機關職屬的主管占了44%蠻高的慣用的手法有時候是用言語那甚至有時候女性遭遇到職場霸凌的比例有時候是高出於男性"},{"start":10548.283,"end":10566.646,"text":"暴漢政府部門,我也不知道說政府部門到底有沒有去處理,你們還是一個主管機關,要去管這個,那反而是沒有特別去處理,所以我就要問,再來問全序部,就是說因為霸凌事實上意思是加害人對被害人從事觸犯"},{"start":10567.126,"end":10567.166,"text":"職場霸凌"},{"start":10588.188,"end":10616.755,"text":"全序部現行機制又是公務人員如果不符機關職場霸凌成立與否的決定的話得依保障法循序那個申訴和再申訴程序再提起我們的行政訴訟程序那這個程序上有準施法的地位據機關跟申訴人雙方權利平等的原則在保障我們的法的機制底下應允許人委託我們的律師協助你同意嗎"},{"start":10618.305,"end":10629.366,"text":"報告委員因為這部分涉及到保障法的規範是不是請公衛保障培訓委員會來那這個階段是不是應該引進我們的法律輔助的制度來依當事人的意願提出申請"},{"start":10631.997,"end":10650.493,"text":"報告委員有關那個職場霸凌的救濟的部分是由保訓會主管那保訓會在審理的時候公務人員本來就可以請律師作為他的代理人那之後不符我們的決定依現況也可以去提行相應的行政訴訟"},{"start":10654.465,"end":10683.224,"text":"好再來想問勞動部部長這邊本席知道勞動部早在104年就便制定了勞動部員工安全跟衛生防護要點那依據勞動部的分工表人身安全項目全責在各施處這設計能夠落實申訴機制嗎是可以的可以嗎有人敢申訴嗎一年有多少件"},{"start":10684.298,"end":10703.809,"text":"那為何不在本部建立統一窗口解決過度內部礙於人情壓力難以使用的問題報告委員現在這個職場霸凌都是人事單位來做處理那我們今年也有接獲一件職場霸凌"},{"start":10705.967,"end":10727.326,"text":"可是我們齁這是我們辦公室接到的齁這就是勞動部的回覆說啊你的申訴我收到啦齁僱主有設置辦法嗎沒有的話請告訴我啊你需要看醫生嗎齁可以提書送啊找專人服務請找什麼什麼如果你們對外部的企業就這樣的話那我不知道對內部到底會怎麼做"},{"start":10727.807,"end":10727.867,"text":"同意嗎"},{"start":10754.059,"end":10755.04,"text":"職場霸凌保障暨培訓委員"},{"start":10769.026,"end":10769.907,"text":"報告委員我們接到申訴案件"},{"start":10787.987,"end":10790.148,"text":"所以勞動部可不可以在一個月內會商地方政府將我們的職場霸凌案件列為勞資爭議處理項目"},{"start":10818.532,"end":10820.973,"text":"我們會後來研究,然後給您報告,可以嗎?我覺得不是走外部"},{"start":10846.937,"end":10847.037,"text":"主席"},{"start":10862.219,"end":10882.227,"text":"全旭部建立公務機關建立再申訴的制度跟委託法律輔助基金會來做外部的申訴那至於我們的勞動部這邊是不是可以請我們的勞工局處在受理職場霸凌事件的時候作為我們的勞資爭議的調處那一週內提供書面資料好以上謝謝"},{"start":10888.948,"end":10892.192,"text":"主席好我們先請我們蔡孟良署長"},{"start":10912.058,"end":10938.448,"text":"市長好我想謝宜龍從部長專委跳到分署組長直接高升分署長是在您跟許民春前部長的推薦下搭直升機上去的嗎是在我任內也是嘛所以也是你推薦的嘛是所以但同時也讓我們北區分署的同仁你知道這件他升上去之後就讓我們北區分署的同仁掉到地獄去了"},{"start":10939.588,"end":10962.588,"text":"身為我們謝宜龍的直屬長官阿你認為你歷屆分署長這樣的霸凌行為是不是要以考記法第12條規定來計兩大過來懲處報告委員這個案子因為調查結果我們這個本部會有一個考記委員的程序在你把他推上去之前你知道他是一個潛在的一個暴君嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":10964.496,"end":10990.399,"text":"在2023年他2月上任到現在北分署滿編才102人他離退率竟然高達8成其中有17位是主管職主任編制有11個離職離職的9位那科長編制6個離職的5位再加上兩位股長、一位廠長你認為他還有資格留在公務體系嗎?"},{"start":10994.25,"end":11022.367,"text":"這個案子因為調查結果也確實他有他的一些霸凌的行為他高調的跟大家說他背後很硬他後台很硬那現在看起來真的是還是蠻硬的你認為他現在調職之後他不會去霸凌其他的同事嗎?還是你不敢講你也被霸凌過?這個案子因為部長他大概已經也決定做調令廢除官職我們銓敘部有的代表人來嗎?"},{"start":11028.049,"end":11052.567,"text":"考機法是你的這個管轄範圍我不是問個案就像這樣引發社會的高度關注、行為不檢嚴重影響政府機關的這個生育的情況是不是符合這個考機法第12條規定包委員因為我們法條是這樣的一個構成要件那是不是符合構成要件那要看機關的通過考機會那部長部長請何部長"},{"start":11056.653,"end":11074.156,"text":"你考機會什麼時候開我會在最快的時間召開好我現在除了這樣子送考機會那我想問部長涉及形式的部分如恐假如譬如說例如恐嚇毀謗攻壤侮辱甚至是傷害這個部分有送檢調嗎"},{"start":11075.396,"end":11093.733,"text":"會 我會送檢調 也會送公務人員懲戒委員會好 那我再問 你們去查過的申訴系統 沒發現所謂二月的申訴案件嗎沒有有沒有發現對你剛剛不是承認我們的王次長有過去他有去查過嘛 對不對我聽說我聽說 對"},{"start":11097.212,"end":11122.792,"text":"我現在嚴重懷疑那個王部長他現在不是請辭了嗎他請辭了是那有人說啦他因為這件事約談過後他就請辭了我覺得他是不是跟這個無關跟這個無關因為他是如果他真的有約談那是2月他請辭是9月了對啊他是不是受到壓力了請辭是我任內的事他是不是受到壓力之後就沒辦法處理覺得心非常累蛤"},{"start":11126.857,"end":11145.971,"text":"我說他心裡非常累沒辦法去處理告你有沒有去查過他跟他這件事有什麼關係?他離開的時候我也發了感謝他的新聞稿大家應該都有看到我非常感謝他幫我的忙而且幫我建置了所有的幕僚對他協助我非常多我這樣講啦我們看到你的報告你們的處理報告"},{"start":11146.952,"end":11158.124,"text":"北分署長對整體同仁有職場霸凌且情節重大這是你們講的但卻又說北分署長沒有對親生員工直接霸凌這樣這句話什麼意思"},{"start":11160.691,"end":11183.936,"text":"對 主要是北分署長跟離開的員工之間還隔著兩個主管一個副分署長 一個秘書室主任這兩個才是直接督導他這個計畫的北分署長沒有直接接觸他所以他沒有直接對他形成霸凌所以你們就是告訴大家我霸凌了全部的人但是他受不了"},{"start":11185.211,"end":11193.588,"text":"你的報告就是這樣嗎?我想是這樣,就是說,他的,可是他透過一層一層這樣傳導,應該這個離開的團體也有感受到被霸凌啦。"},{"start":11194.643,"end":11221.531,"text":"應該是這樣子啦可是我真的是無法證實說所以我覺得你們的報告讓我們的臺灣的這些勞工完全對勞動部完全沒有信心也真的非常的失望那因為你們報告裡面有講說這位同仁很認真有壓力自己扛對不對有困難不會求援好像講的又很漂亮的話來責怪這一個親身的這位同仁"},{"start":11223.237,"end":11234.095,"text":"對不對 這讓人家非常不能接受你懂我意思嗎公務人員的僱主就是政府你們的調查報告就是宣布勞動部不會保護勞工是這樣嗎這不是很諷刺嗎"},{"start":11237.267,"end":11256.059,"text":"委員我的報告其實就是為了能夠還給這位離開的同仁一個公道啦就是說我們要還原就是說他真正的離開的原因那我再問一下現在發現這個事情我們的分署長不用出來道歉嗎?我道歉還沒看到他一定要一定要一定要所以他什麼時候出來道歉"},{"start":11257.025,"end":11279.037,"text":"我們會要求他在最快的時間出來道歉好嗎?我希望他應該要出來面對才對,你們不能把他藏在後面,不能說因為你的壓力很大別人壓力就不大嗎?對不對?所以我這個部分我請部長這邊你要趕快處理好不好?不要這個事情越怨惡越大。然後我再問就是說"},{"start":11280.97,"end":11301.629,"text":"我們北區分屬同仁就算沒有求救那內部控管還是可以發現問題因為這非常不正常你將近八成的人調離原單位這個問題你們沒有發現嗎我覺得這事情是可以挽救的可以不讓它發生的可是今天偏偏發生了我們才發現這個問題"},{"start":11305.485,"end":11321.689,"text":"這就是我們的疏忽我昨天在記者會也是為什麼會致歉也是這個原因我們人事單位我想請人事行政總處我們這邊有來嘛像人事單位我們是不是應該追蹤類似這樣的一個我們離職的流動控管有沒有做之前有沒有做"},{"start":11328.512,"end":11351.485,"text":"這個我們在相關的工時管理或者是員工消費方案我們是會提醒就是說因為這個人員的工時或者是人員簽調來講因為這個是內部管理所以這個部分確實就是說在日常的人員管理上面是對啦我是問你有沒有追蹤不要講那麼多有沒有以前沒做嘛對不對"},{"start":11352.628,"end":11369.632,"text":"我們是有在相關宣導作業裡面以後會不會如果碰到這種問題會不會主動介入去了解我們會來或者是提醒提醒我們各單位對吧這個非常不正常整個北分署的人都換掉了好不好我們請人事行政總署這邊注意一下那另外"},{"start":11380.762,"end":11407.134,"text":"我們北區分署絕大部分都是適用於勞基法的勞工而調查報告證明北分署同仁勞動條件不佳又有職場霸凌工時過長同仁還陳情加班不給加班費先打卡上下班下班再加班還要24小時待命回覆長官的LINE那本席在這邊要求我們請職安署馬上啟動對"},{"start":11409.317,"end":11414.969,"text":"這個北分署的勞動檢查及職場霸凌調查可以嗎?請問職安署同不同意?我們會協同"},{"start":11419.275,"end":11421.135,"text":"我們勞動部是保護勞工不受職場霸凌的第一線公務部門"},{"start":11446.408,"end":11446.428,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":11474.822,"end":11503.085,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝邱偉仁我們現在處理臨時提案現在處理臨時提案總共有五個案請一併先讀第一案落實慢性病防治除有助保障國人健康亦有力降低整體醫療成本及健保支出原此請勞動部就勞工健檢結果相關資料"},{"start":11503.826,"end":11522.381,"text":"作為國家執行慢性病防治政策參考依據之可行性會同衛生福利部啟動相關研議並於兩個月內將研議結果及未來規劃送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員王振旭聯署人委員林淑芬、林月琴第二案"},{"start":11523.321,"end":11540.022,"text":"謝宜榮分署長種種行為以涉嫌違反《公務員懲戒法》相關規範原要求勞動部長依《公務員懲戒法》第24條等相關條文將謝宜榮分署長送請監察院調查另應過去國防部發生洪仲秋遭長官霸凌事件"},{"start":11541.063,"end":11569.493,"text":"當時國防部自請調查結果與檢察官後來所調查事實全然不符是以要求勞動部不應再進行內部調查並主動將本案移送地檢署偵辦提案人委員陳昭芝、聯署人委員王玉敏、陳金輝第三案有鑒於11月初勞動部勞動力發展署北分署無姓公務員疑似因遭遭到分署長謝怡榮職場霸凌與辦公室親身一案"},{"start":11571.031,"end":11598.697,"text":"勞動部調查結果避重就輕將此悲劇歸責於員工自己的問題原此要求立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會做成決議退回該調查報告並重啟調查同時引進外部調查機制如加入第三方公證人士令謝原因立即停止處分並移送監察院及公務員懲戒委員會如情節重大者將撤職查辦永不再任公職提案人委員"},{"start":11599.677,"end":11616.669,"text":"陳金輝、陳昭芝、蘇清泉、王育敏、廖偉祥第4案有鑒於勞動部勞動力發展署、北基、宜花、金馬分署絕大多數是適用勞基法的勞工而勞動部調查報告亦證明北分署同仍有勞動條件不佳、工時過長"},{"start":11617.85,"end":11636.248,"text":"工作量過重的情形．並認定謝芬署長涉及職場霸凌且情節重大．原要求勞動部職業安全衛生署應立即啟動檢查北分署勞工的勞動條件及調查職場霸凌事件提案人委員邱振軍、王育敏、陳清輝、廖偉祥"},{"start":11636.929,"end":11665.872,"text":"第5案有鑒於北分署長謝宜榮職場霸凌導致員工自殺身亡然而勞動部113年勞動力發展署北基宜化金馬分署疑似涉及職場霸凌事件行政調查說明資料竟然只是行政調查避重就輕而不是啟動霸凌調查原要求退回勞動部調查報告於3日內重新改寫報告提案人委員蘇清泉、陳金輝、王育敏、廖偉祥宣讀完畢"},{"start":11670.407,"end":11674.698,"text":"好請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見委員有沒有意見"},{"start":11684.748,"end":11703.744,"text":"跟委員報告剛才跟那個王委員溝通在第一案的部分在第三段第二行有關衛生服務衛生主管機關委員同意修正為有關醫勞工健檢相關資料刪除衛生主管機關字眼"},{"start":11707.523,"end":11714.226,"text":"同意那第一案就修改後通過第一案有沒有意見"},{"start":11729.105,"end":11740.318,"text":"就是最後倒數第二行要求勞動部不應再進行內部調查那個不應再進行內部調查因為前面就是說我們其實"},{"start":11741.707,"end":11758.481,"text":"本來就是這個部分是不是可以拿掉我們會主動將本案移送地檢署我們本來就不會在因為這個本來就已經經過內部調查了啦就是現在已經內部調查過了嘛那是不是接下來我們應該主動將本案移送地檢署比較重要這樣子"},{"start":11763.86,"end":11780.757,"text":"就是那一段就刪掉就對了就不應該進行那一部調查並拿掉對是是這我們可以對沒有問題好那好修正通過來第三案是國民黨黨團提出來的有沒有意見"},{"start":11782.959,"end":11796.709,"text":"是容我這個說明就是退回該調查報告並重啟調查同時引進外部調查機制如加入第三方公證人士這一段這個容我這個就是說"},{"start":11799.279,"end":11824.577,"text":"因為我這個調查報告本身也是外部專家主導的他是目前人也不在對 那麼就是說這個部分要重啟調查說真的因為我們有外部專家本來就有外部專家那我也得尊重他們的意見他願不願意協同我們來一起重啟調查是不是能夠讓我們有一是不是這一段先"},{"start":11825.538,"end":11831.461,"text":"陳清花委員有在嗎?來嗎?我先講一下我先講一下好你先講一下那個"},{"start":11852.626,"end":11876.367,"text":"國民黨黨團的這個提案主要目的是你們的調查報告其實現在大家有些聲音因為調查不夠徹底像我剛剛問你的問題包括就是說這一位無性的工作人員他從多久他就開始是這樣子凌晨五點就上班你們也回答不出來"},{"start":11878.004,"end":11880.126,"text":"整個實質的狀況其實你們並沒有徹底調查還有剛剛大家在講二月份的時候到底這個次長有沒有約談分署長你們現在給的資訊也是不夠清晰你說你要另外再立案"},{"start":11893.718,"end":11912.076,"text":"這些其實都是整個的調查應該要涵蓋的範圍,包括委員他有沒有過勞,他過勞他的整個狀態是什麼,我覺得你們沒有提供得很清楚。還有就是到底分屬的同仁從什麼時候就開始,就是已經去投訴。"},{"start":11913.357,"end":11929.783,"text":"然後勞動部什麼時候從什麼時間點知道這件事而勞動部做了什麼這個部分其實也都沒有交代所以我覺得這一些你們這一次的調查報告的確是不夠深入那如果現在要以招供性的話因為"},{"start":11930.943,"end":11954.64,"text":"現在外界要的是真相我是建議部長啦你其實有第三方公正人士進去調查其實對你們反而是有利的因為你這一份報告大家已經覺得是不夠詳盡的調查那你如果再經由重組你的這個外聘的專家而且剛剛也有你們民進黨的委員在質疑次長是不是適合擔任召集人"},{"start":11955.961,"end":11976.307,"text":"他可能不適合那你可能要找一個第三方公正的專家學者他來主持這整個的調查委員會重新再調查那我覺得你重新再產製出來的這份報告才可以已遭公信社會也才覺得這個真相是真的有理性"},{"start":11976.907,"end":11994.938,"text":"因為到目前為止就是昨天雖然部長你跟次長出來開了記者會但是這個疑慮這個聲音還是很大今天你可以看到各媒體的輿論反應是這樣那我覺得唯有真相可以說服大家真相是什麼然後你們真正的檢討我覺得這件事情才會過去所以你剛剛提到說什麼委員會不會同意"},{"start":11997.299,"end":12025.016,"text":"主這個調查委員會這個委員不同意再找願意的委員我相信這件事情應該有這種熱血的委員他也想要知道真相是什麼然後他願意進來調查的所以我是建議應該是你們重組這樣的一個調查委員然後召集人不要你們勞動部現在也是苦主你們也深設其中所以外面的人來幫忙調查我覺得真相是比較容易還原的"},{"start":12025.515,"end":12053.84,"text":"所以我是建議這個部分應該還是要按照這個內容部長你現在要重啟調查你要委員是要原班人馬還是再找多久的委員跟委員報告喔就是說因為我必須要馬上做出處分了啦如果再重啟調查也會延到我處分的時間因為整個社會對我的調查報告如果不信任那我們就送檢調跟工程會以招工信啦"},{"start":12055.485,"end":12066.058,"text":"對我行政部委員關切的問題我都可以補充來報告沒有問題可是如果就這一份要重啟調查會延到我處分的時間這個要很抱歉"},{"start":12073.445,"end":12087.821,"text":"這真的是因為委員如果說我這個調查報告沒訂沒因為委員對不起齁我也要再再再釐清一下啦我我這個調查是行政調查其實也不是送立院的情的啦"},{"start":12088.402,"end":12112.803,"text":"我今天是應立院的要求來做行政調查報告所以其實並不是原來立院就有決議要我做這個調查而我送立院必須立院通過不是這樣的程序這本來就是我自己主動的行政調查是那現在就是立法院的衛環委員會做成提案而且要求你勞動部你必須要做一個更周延的"},{"start":12113.664,"end":12130.593,"text":"的調查報告出來這個是屬於委員會要求你在做調查你有屬於你的職權你自己做的但是今天委員會要求的是因為你自己做的第一版大家看起來不滿意所以委員會是透過委員會委員的提案跟黨團的提案我們要求"},{"start":12131.113,"end":12144.767,"text":"你必須就是再重啟調查這個過去在這個行政體系都有這樣的一個案例沒有說你自己勞動部出來的第一版然後就不可以衛環委員會再做出決議要求你再重啟調查沒有這回事"},{"start":12149.912,"end":12164.742,"text":"立法院是監督勞動部的那是不是至少退回該調查報告可以拿掉啦因為沒有退回的問題啦我這個不是來立院不是送立院議決的所以是不是"},{"start":12167.021,"end":12169.384,"text":"請問就是說這個行政調查要做的行政處分應該不是只有謝芬署長一個人吧?"},{"start":12185.2,"end":12200.804,"text":"是嗎還是針對那如果還包含其他人的話那我想要提出一個疑慮就是在這一次的這個有在2月份的時候北分數的人就有北分數的人就提出檢舉了那"},{"start":12204.046,"end":12224.938,"text":"這個檢舉到了當時的王安邦次長的手上他其實他是有去約談這個謝宜蓉的那約談完之後呢在網上呈報的時候這邊就奇怪囉徐明瑄部長當時並沒有他表示他不知情他不知道這個檢舉不知道這個案子"},{"start":12226.579,"end":12247.046,"text":"那中間還卡了誰把這個案子給擋了、吃掉了、蓋掉了這個人到底是誰?要不要把他揪出來?所以這個就是行政調查你們沒有去查到的部分嘛那我沒有意見說你要重啟或者是要怎麼樣但是我覺得漏掉的那個人應該要揪出來不是嗎?"},{"start":12248.146,"end":12256.998,"text":"好所以我就補充這一點那至於要採取什麼樣的這個程序你們自己決定但是中間中間把這個案子吃掉的人就一定要揪出來就對了啦可惡了"},{"start":12260.851,"end":12284.588,"text":"好 林業行委員歡迎我想問一下就是剛剛部長回答說縣委員應該立即停職除非你們這邊沒問題喔想問一下停職跟撤職跟永不任用的這個公職的這個全職機關是勞動部嗎所以這個程序是要怎麼處理然後到底這個是誰是全職部還是你這邊那是司法"},{"start":12285.769,"end":12301.401,"text":"委員那個撤職永不再任公職那是那是懲戒法院那是懲戒法院的權限我的權限只有到停職啦我的考機會權限只有到停職最大到停職那都是懲戒法院的權責"},{"start":12306.673,"end":12334.967,"text":"那是不是就是那個剛剛陳穎委員追尋的齁這個我們一定也會調查剛剛我已經承諾政風就是承諾放哪一位 欸承諾王委員我的政風會立案開始調查二月份約談的問題已經有已經我剛剛已經承諾王委員的我可以從做一個調查報告給委員會沒有問題啦可是就是不是退回這份報告這樣子啦"},{"start":12340.637,"end":12348.72,"text":"退回該調查報告並重啟調查,同時送檢調,可以一起寫上去"},{"start":12365.216,"end":12374.443,"text":"全序部或人事總處從行政調查能不能就直接對公務員做停職的處分這個權責到底在不在勞動部"},{"start":12396.004,"end":12414.203,"text":"跟我們報告齁 如果考試會最後決議是要祭兩大過免職的話那兩大過免職做出處處分之後可以同時發布一個停職令就是在處分確定前先行停職那麼如果要移送懲戒的話就要依照懲戒法的規定所以必須要祭兩大過嗎對才有辦法行政機關的停職"},{"start":12419.187,"end":12443.304,"text":"或是移送懲戒他也有一個停職的依據那部長現在的意思是說假如說照這個臨時提案過立即做停職處分你們是可以接受的我可以考慮啊沒有問題不是你沒有權利考慮啊你沒有權利考慮因為這個必須要考機會是啊部長你這樣子的表態會變成考機會是由部長來掌控的"},{"start":12448.886,"end":12460.703,"text":"必須要考機會做出他剛剛的解釋是必須要考機會做成兩大過處分以後才有停職的問題嘛對不對不是不能"},{"start":12463.65,"end":12488.572,"text":"沒有沒有就是考試委員會要如果要處分的話而且那個處分是達到兩大過免職才會有停職的依據啦我們兩大過免職是未確定前先行停職所以就考積的部分懲處的部分的停職的依據只有在計兩大過免職的時候他才能夠停職所以懲戒的如果是走懲戒我們剛才講懲處和懲戒並行嘛"},{"start":12491.374,"end":12514.025,"text":"那如果考試委員會決意要送懲戒的話一送懲戒那就到懲戒的那邊再停止所以也都不是也都不是行政機關內部部長在這邊就可以承諾說可以停止機關的這個懲戒權限呢如果是鑑定90等以下的在在一送機關他是有權限可以先行停止"},{"start":12516.024,"end":12536.475,"text":"那分署長的職等是多少?你說是9職等以下才可以嗎?9職等以下也是要移送懲戒才可以主管機關移送機關本於權責認為情節重大他先行停職那你直接告訴我好了假如說這個臨時提案直接就寫"},{"start":12538.039,"end":12540.941,"text":"應立即停止處分,在法制上有沒有問題?"},{"start":12567.839,"end":12572.903,"text":"所以考機會還沒那個你就是必須要就就這個跟委員報告說這個不在你的權限是不是可以做修正"},{"start":12591.892,"end":12601.928,"text":"我相信沒有委員會要求你承諾你權限範圍之外的事情跟違反法規的事情啦好不好"},{"start":12603.633,"end":12627.559,"text":"對 就是 呃就是說我現在已經把他送考機會了嘛齁 那麼謝圓就是說 或是說可以改說說 建請謝圓應立即停止處分就建請考機會啦 我的考機會啦考機會是獨立的東西我們怎麼能介入 我們怎麼能介入這樣子的一個如果委員"},{"start":12632.035,"end":12647.16,"text":"那你就是說這個沒有辦法你怎麼會要我們去建議考紀會考紀會是一個審議的機關我們還不想介入那委員可以接受這句話拿掉嗎我是可以啊因為這個本來就你就是不能答應的啊"},{"start":12655.292,"end":12680.869,"text":"保訓會可以拜託嗎報告委員我們目前各機關在處理的時候有發生同仁有違反紀律的相關行為的時候我們可以召開考機會那考機會他可以做成決議第一個我要什麼額度的懲處決議那剛剛那個詮訊部已經講了如果今天是一次二大過的懲處"},{"start":12683.351,"end":12683.471,"text":"這是分署長．"},{"start":12711.721,"end":12734.8,"text":"所以他的考機委員會應該在署勞發署來召開那勞發署召開考機會的時候如果認為是要移副懲戒那因為我們的公務員懲戒法移副懲戒的權限是主管機關是勞動部那勞發署的考機會就可以做成移副懲戒並認為情節重大建議先行停職"},{"start":12740.525,"end":12765.498,"text":"那到勞動部的時候因為懲戒法有賦予他一副懲戒的時候他可以認為情節重大就停職那這個是第二個停職的法律那我們因為孫署長他是檢任嘛所以要先送監察院那先送監察院監察院有彈劾啊怎樣才送"},{"start":12766.118,"end":12766.578,"text":"老闆署的考記會"},{"start":12795.214,"end":12820.891,"text":"一個建議必須要先有建議嘛這個就是不是我們在這裡可以先做做出一個決議的嘛我們做決議等於是我們在對考記會下指導旗嘛是的是不是這樣子是的好 謝謝我們的全區部齁那個如果是考記會是署裡面的考記會是不是就是勞動力發展署的考記會"},{"start":12826.226,"end":12841.596,"text":"因為他是機關首長機關首長的平時考核案件基本上是送上級機關就是勞發署但是勞發署如果說在往上面的主管機關送因為他的移送承接的主管機關會是勞動部"},{"start":12844.978,"end":12873.157,"text":"所以勞動部如果他召開考記會來處理這個移送的案件也無不可不過就是移送案件其實在工程法的規定並沒有強制規定一定要過考記會只是行政機關通常就是說為了讓當事人這個案件能夠被公正的審理他會透過考記會這個機制那如果考記會是決定什麼兩大過就可以停止"},{"start":12874.116,"end":12892.424,"text":"是這樣嗎我剛才講的是說停職不是免職是停職懲處和懲戒並行嘛所以機關如果決定的是走考機會懲處的這個方式的話在懲處這邊只有到寄到兩大過的時候他才有一個停職的依據在兩大過"},{"start":12893.864,"end":12918.029,"text":"免職處分確定前先行停職讓當事人去救濟那他如果走懲戒的程序的話那個停職就回到懲戒法的規定那剛剛保修會已經有說明過了那如果移送懲戒主管機關認為懲戒重大他是可以先行停職啦那但是當然啦移送到懲戒法院或是監察院他也有職權通知停職懲戒法院也可以通知停職"},{"start":12918.849,"end":12940.152,"text":"都有這樣一個停職的機制,但是那個部分就是在懲戒公務員懲戒法的規範不是,我現在,請坐我現在要確定的就是說是不是一定要經過考機會,不管是懲處或者是不一定懲戒的部分未必"},{"start":12942.765,"end":12961.801,"text":"沒有辦法代替司法院回答但是就我們看到公務員懲戒法上面的規範他是沒有一定要走考記委員會這個程序才能移送懲戒啦是在行政懲處走考記法的這個行政懲處我們規定一定要過考記委員會移送懲戒之前呢行政機關可以先行停職嗎"},{"start":12963.75,"end":12966.852,"text":"那移送懲戒之前機關首長有沒有權力"},{"start":12993.328,"end":12995.45,"text":"先下停職的處分"},{"start":13023.708,"end":13042.277,"text":"機關首長要移送懲戒之前因為考試委員會是部裡面主管我們看到的懲戒法上面並沒有把考試委員會這個機制納進去懲戒的一個先行的程序而且送懲戒之前機關首長是可以先行停職的這我認為這個重大可以推進賣個賣個囉這邊鬼打牆啊這邊一直轉"},{"start":13051.26,"end":13066.171,"text":"我們就改成這樣啦做成決議倒數第4行就退回該調查報告並重啟調查就是退回該調查報告刪掉就是決議要求重啟調查這樣可以嗎部長同時引進這個這個這個然後血緣因立即停止存停止啦齁"},{"start":13078.884,"end":13088.546,"text":"你 你們的行政昨天的好像也有講說他要停職然後 調職 像是這樣嘛 對不對你們的那個報告調職要 要調職不是委員 就是說這個都是考機會要決的啦所以你們考機會還沒有 還沒有召開我會盡速召開好 那所以 怎麼樣 這一句就是說委員 就是說"},{"start":13112.136,"end":13140.138,"text":"所以昨天講調職也不一定對阿留在原來的分屬阿分屬的員工怕邱鶴算帳怕要死每個人都這樣講阿阿是要我做事情嗎?阿是調來調去你命阿把你救進康管不會啦 不會嘿 那麼謝元謝元那個就是說謝元因立即停止處分這句話可不可以拿委員"},{"start":13141.633,"end":13159.279,"text":"就是說我們就把他直接移送公務人員懲戒委員會啦好不好就是說也不用什麼離地級停職處分啦就是移送監察院我們就把他直接移送公務人員懲戒委員會嘛如果依照剛剛那個"},{"start":13164,"end":13192.809,"text":"主席主席那個部長我只是補充一下啦那部長新政已成啦所以他就是要直接預送懲戒而不是送稿機所以今天只有特別提到所以他就可以進行作為停止的處分是不是這樣我可以有這種權嗎我不知道"},{"start":13194.426,"end":13194.626,"text":"那個好請"},{"start":13215.321,"end":13221.594,"text":"報告一送書出去就可以一併來執行停止處分了啦剛剛就這麼明確了嘛阿因為部長剛剛也這麼講說就不再處理考期直接送"},{"start":13227.116,"end":13249.177,"text":"最近講了我是我是應部長的講法所以你的行政如果已成就這樣處理啊委員還有另外因為我不是只有他一位啦我還有另外三位必須處理所以是不是容我盡快召開考機會做出處分唯有我行政部門的態度之後我馬上移送公務人員懲戒委員會以及檢調可不可以這樣"},{"start":13254.318,"end":13274.66,"text":"那因為我在這個部長我們現在是要討論說臨時提案裡面要求你立即立即停止處分這個這個文字聽說部長是接受的我現在是在問說你有沒有這個權利可以直接就是"},{"start":13276.54,"end":13289.252,"text":"對對他剛剛講繳走懲戒的路線的話是可以不僅考紀委員會而且部長就可以直接做停職處分是不是這樣子這保訓會跟"},{"start":13303.325,"end":13321.29,"text":"我們衛環委員會主秘他的意見是這樣移送審計移送監察案及公務員懲罰委員會的同時就可以停職就可以停職所以這個是可以兩個可以一起做的"},{"start":13324.233,"end":13343.311,"text":"對不對?是沒有錯啦,我現在只是說因為檢驗的職務的話是不會進送審協法院,他送的會是監察院那是停職,因為原先的條文是停職寫在前面似乎是應該是先移送監察院然後並同時停職法院敢辦嗎?監察院敢辦嗎?"},{"start":13354.081,"end":13356.405,"text":"很好了,我覺得剛剛那個文字很好了"},{"start":13365.882,"end":13392.669,"text":"法庭委員可不可以容我再請個委員剛剛講這個是OK的不是就是說剛剛講的那個方式移送監察院公務人員懲戒委員會並予以停職這只能"},{"start":13394.304,"end":13412.836,"text":"這只能針對情節最重大的啦可是我剛剛有再跟各位委員報告我還有另外三位得處理好 那麼如果委員對只對謝圓有意見所以"},{"start":13414.432,"end":13428.809,"text":"所以委員的意思是說,縣委員不通過我的考機會,而希望我直接把他停職並移送公務人員懲戒委員會,是嗎?那可不可以?"},{"start":13434.099,"end":13451.097,"text":"我們不要私交啦這個是部長你要不要承擔你要承擔就直接移送然後你就自己停職你不想承擔就交給考試會所以這個是部長你個人願不願意承擔的態度的問題而已啦不是"},{"start":13452.352,"end":13470.623,"text":"我考機會其實也是我考機會也是我這邊召開的所以我也是我擔權者啦考機會所做成的除非也代表我的態度啦那也是機關的態度啊因為考機會也是機關考機會要等多久現在就決定"},{"start":13472.176,"end":13491.176,"text":"考機會我馬上就會召開可以嗎?就是我在馬上召開考機會,然後我會考慮對縣議員予以停止處分,然後我還得考慮其他三位的處分,之後我一併移送公務人員懲戒委員會啊,跟檢調這樣子啊,可以嗎?"},{"start":13496.516,"end":13522.432,"text":"你確定要讓火繼續燒嗎?如果現在不答應的話?考試會馬上召開,可是我們不能先確定結果,尊重考試會運動那個只是...因為委員擔心我們不停止嘛好好好,不要再討論了,聽到就討論了勞動部你把這三座蓋蓋"},{"start":13525.37,"end":13526.431,"text":"先說第4案,不要這樣洗臉"},{"start":13551.665,"end":13552.745,"text":"第三案第五案 部長請改改"},{"start":13579.838,"end":13580.158,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13609.775,"end":13632.612,"text":"好 先來休息10分鐘 趕快改改 要吃飯快點吃這個 再整個拼到最後好 改一下 報告委員會 我們現在休息20分鐘"},{"start":13637.032,"end":13663.705,"text":"借員移送檢查院同時停職後面的不要院他要不要不認公職或撤職這個要等懲戒法院的判決那是懲戒法院的處分不是我們行政機關的處分"},{"start":13666.807,"end":13667.587,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13684.199,"end":13696.125,"text":"後面這個撤職負責任公職這個移送懲戒者在懲戒法院懲戒法院在在座就是說這個不在座任公職這個公園這個要懲戒法院是是這個部分"},{"start":13707.831,"end":13708.111,"text":"那我來問我來問"},{"start":13738.553,"end":13738.713,"text":"檢察院同職"},{"start":13759.553,"end":13773.398,"text":"因為我們並移送監察院監察院移送並將卸員因為你前面是調查機制的並將並將卸員移送監察院同時依法就是懲戒法懲戒法也不是我的法不是不是懲戒法裡面我們機關有"},{"start":13786.602,"end":13802.559,"text":"移送的時候必須全認定警戒重大合體所以我們有個警政群在裡面在他做成見證請瞭解認定警戒重大是主管機關的權責那我主管機關可以認定警戒重大的嗎這個公務員先堂職"},{"start":13809.746,"end":13825.557,"text":"但是我平時的時候叫我移送檢察院檢查因為它是檢認的 檢認的對 90分以下才可以接送檢察院 那個以上就準認以上的一定要經過檢察院談核在一起請問一下 因為那個情節中他必須要到那個免責職 休職 還有檢查公職 是不是"},{"start":13836.804,"end":13845.896,"text":"我們自己論述說我認為相當他未來可能相當要有這樣程度的成績可有之餘就好了有這種程度之餘就好了"},{"start":13858.012,"end":13860.434,"text":"所以我們還是要走考機委員會這條路嗎?"},{"start":13883.129,"end":13884.69,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":13903.786,"end":13905.347,"text":"有勞動部進速召開考試會議"},{"start":13923.338,"end":13924.619,"text":"當事人要來陳述一件事"},{"start":13951.008,"end":13951.689,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13966.607,"end":13976.312,"text":"請問我他同時停職以送公務人員承接委員會的我還可以照該考機會處理他嗎?可以分開嗎?"},{"start":13991.68,"end":14010.329,"text":"我跟妳講,我們考進這個公務人員、同事院、涉案的很多人,我們就要把這件故意牽開是不公事件,因為縣員是縣員,那其他人是對於縣員的管理不好,對不對,他的署長啊"},{"start":14012.04,"end":14034.242,"text":"其中三個 一個是 兩個是縣委的下屬那跟縣委應該一掛的要不然我把他們三個都停止張宇宙公務人员呈現委會不行啊 他們情節沒有他這麼重大你這樣 你會被罵啦不要緊 不要緊沒有 那可是北分屬四屆是情節重大啊那個 那要的話就全部一掛一起啊"},{"start":14035.302,"end":14056.374,"text":"如果因為不懲戒法就是說同一事件的一掛人如果要有成績最高的那這件事檢認一定要送檢察院就一定送但是對於他們的情節我們可以分開認定其中只有限分數大情節重大然後立即停止"},{"start":14057.114,"end":14085.403,"text":"他們現在是怕我不停職嗎?他們現在回來跟我研究溝通啦!可不可以讓我技術狀態考試位啦?然後我一定會把這個議席都結束掉!我們不能這樣說啦!這樣你就是考試過你已經預設立場了!不行啦!你不能預設!不是!你就說我技術狀態考試位!我們不是有條例!那個實踐法裡面有條例!統一涉案有沒有!"},{"start":14086.627,"end":14087.437,"text":"多人的是要同時"},{"start":14088.61,"end":14109.805,"text":"對,但是你不能說我就叫他停止你這樣會說你會預設立法我現在事情也弄到要請勞動部召開考試、技術召開考試的機會女女停止體育費不行,好機會不行他會送到我這邊來啦所以就要認不認定所以我才說你要先認不認定他是統一事件請勞動部技術召開考試機會嗎"},{"start":14118.733,"end":14119.453,"text":"委員會進行一個正當的採訪"},{"start":14138.623,"end":14139.925,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14996.357,"end":15012.161,"text":"好大家回來了我們現在繼續開會來現在是第三案吧第三案來修改後唸一下委員是我這邊可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":15022.128,"end":15028.794,"text":"請求委員,原來倒數第4行退回該調查報告拿掉,作者決議重啟調查,同時引進外部調查機制關乎如加入第三方公證人士,"},{"start":15040.615,"end":15052.225,"text":"將謝元移送將謝元保留應立即停止處分拿掉將謝元移送監察院及公務員懲戒委員會並同時審酌是否依法停職"},{"start":15069.242,"end":15096.724,"text":"公務人員懲戒委員會檢察院就好了沒有懲戒委員會為什麼沒有現在已經是那個懲戒法院了就是到這裡移送檢察院就好了移送檢察院對不起我在修正對不起委員我在修正就是那個移送檢察院及公務人員懲戒委員會是拿掉這樣子"},{"start":15099.215,"end":15100.696,"text":"並同時審酌是否依法停止"},{"start":15130.509,"end":15145.233,"text":"考機會那段應該可以不用特別寫因為那本來就是我我的權利是可以對不對那個保訓會不用寫那本來我就可以用我開考機會然後予以停職然後送檢察院這樣子是吧這樣可以嗎 請就位"},{"start":15158.124,"end":15160.965,"text":"臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來我們請盧憲毅委員質詢"},{"start":15206.264,"end":15211.569,"text":"主席有請我們教育部人事處處長王崇斌教育部,你沒有看見王處長請處長好,處長"},{"start":15230.885,"end":15243.156,"text":"今天因為我本身是原住民立委所以針對我們在原住民常看到的霸凌先請問處長通常霸凌哪一種形式會最常見"},{"start":15254.181,"end":15274.464,"text":"基本上他就是包括言語包括行為那我先考你一個我後面這兩個這個主委名字怎麼唸GIGIGIGI怎麼唸GIGI他怎麼唸GIGI不是他是唸GIGI"},{"start":15275.809,"end":15301.826,"text":"就像我們現在的直棒選手現在去打球的時候很多人說發不出那個音然後就類似像嘲諷的意思所以我們常常處在這樣的一個狀況之下那現在有一個宜蘭縣的投訴就是說國小教練他言語霸凌我們小朋友說你的體力這麼差你不會打球的話你就去種菜"},{"start":15303.867,"end":15319.394,"text":"經過考評會以後老師被解聘了教練被解聘結果沒有多久他又被聘為代課老師我想知道說教育部對這方面的有沒有一個限制比如說他已經被解聘了沒有多久又變成代課老師這樣一個機制是怎麼會存在"},{"start":15321.395,"end":15344.781,"text":"跟委員報告,因為這個可能會涉及到當時他解聘的原因,還有某案的這個...好,沒關係,屏東縣又發生這樣的事情,也是因為扮球教練他就是不適任,結果霸凌學生後一年,他管制期間是一年,2024到2月7號,應該是明年才可以在延宇,他不能再被續聘,結果他現在又被續聘為高中的"},{"start":15346.862,"end":15369.681,"text":"在我們現在的屏東縣的某個高中學生的家長來跟我投訴說這樣的一個教練怎麼會適合繼續變成代課老師所以這個方面我覺得你們應該通常檢討常常會發生在教練的身上雖然我知道大部分的教練都很好可是遇到這樣的教練我覺得我們常有嚴重的學生會求恃無門"},{"start":15371.881,"end":15387.646,"text":"這個部分我想因為涉及到個案所以必須要就個案的情況再去了解可是我覺得這樣的情況很常見接下來的第三個就是也是屏東縣的教練他認為說選手如果得到獎金的話他應該這個獎金有部分應該是要"},{"start":15390.707,"end":15412.782,"text":"給全隊大家來分享可是這個是沒有當然是沒有說一定強制要多少可是越來越嚴重到有時候要到三分之二結果學生的家長來找我們投訴說怎麼有這樣的一個規定然後他跟老師知道以後教練知道以後他跟學生恐嚇說如果你這樣子的話以後"},{"start":15413.891,"end":15440.134,"text":"我把你就是提出這個球隊的話以後你進入不了任何一個球隊也就是說這個學生就受到老師的霸凌還好他高中畢業就考上國立大學就離開這個學校可是這個老師還是停留在還是留在原高中教書所以這樣的狀況不是很不是很所謂的rare是非常常見所以我才跟你講說應該要給一套的措施對我們所謂的教練來看"},{"start":15441.86,"end":15442.881,"text":"好,下一個請國防部"},{"start":15471.707,"end":15498.981,"text":"我們常務次長楊基隆市長好委員好你看一下我今天穿的衣服這是我們原住民的軍人在10月12號因為兜露事件死亡的一個軍人我們海軍陸戰隊我們對這件事情非常感到遺憾對我也知道大家都很遺憾不是只有你很遺憾那我想知道目前的處理進度"},{"start":15501.434,"end":15527.292,"text":"這個進度方面分幾方面跟委員做報告第一個就是有關造案的這個陸軍的零星的士兵還有空軍那個銀星的士兵我們分別都已從地檢署然後現在目前零星士兵遭到羈押然後我們也依照他酒後失序還有營外不當持有盜竊這樣的這樣的成因來記他兩大過以及記過的處分然後對於空軍那個銀星的士兵我們"},{"start":15528.814,"end":15531.938,"text":"我大概都知道我有請兩次國會聯絡人到辦公室來我想知道"},{"start":15546.296,"end":15570.574,"text":"對 也就是說被加害者的這個部隊有沒有確實去關心我知道受害者這個部隊是每天都至少有兩三個我們的不論是輔導長、連長或者是連輔導長都有過去關心每天都有到可是呢我們加害的這個空軍跟陸軍的部隊長官他被害者家屬跟我講說他認為"},{"start":15572.395,"end":15586.185,"text":"他們只做到所謂的撤職就把這個事情切得一乾二淨完全跟部隊沒有關係讓家屬覺得很不被尊重你至少來我們所謂的我們你們漢人說上個鄉吧我們那邊是"},{"start":15588.426,"end":15604.753,"text":"謝謝耶穌不過你至少來臨前致意來一下雖然屏東有點遠可是我還是我那天有在告別式之前我還是有去在來一鄉的文樂村那我的意思就是說家屬感受不到國防部的"},{"start":15605.908,"end":15608.59,"text":"不是,這個再跟委員就說明一下"},{"start":15629.907,"end":15651.034,"text":"國防部基於三軍一家,我們不管陸海空軍都是同根同源,然後也都情同所屬。這個事情一發生之後,我們就責成海軍陸戰隊,是委員你現在所看到的,海軍陸戰隊所有的同仁,代表了三軍,代表國防部,到家屬家裡面去做了相關有關於傷臟事宜或是一些輔敘事宜的協助。"},{"start":15653.115,"end":15679.409,"text":"家長還在受害者保護協會去那邊受諮詢也就是說我期望啦國防部能夠給予他們最大的協助好不好因為他們都是來自親韓的家庭又是原住民的部落離法院離哪裡都很遠大概都要一個小時以上因為我們稍微知道齁文樂很遠那我的意思就是說他們可能的知識水準也沒有很高所以要給予最大"},{"start":15680.009,"end":15680.67,"text":"好 謝謝陸委員繼續我們請廖偉祥委員"},{"start":15716.513,"end":15718.694,"text":"謝謝主席有請何部長部長好可以感覺出來你也承受很大的壓力了但是我們今天討論這個東西就是希望把這件事情釐清調查清楚還給社會一個公道部長請先跟大眾說明一下什麼是目的良善目的良善你們報告裡面寫的目的良善"},{"start":15757.697,"end":15782.93,"text":"主席你要不要暫停一下 讓那個 讓 主席要不要暫停一下時間讓部長的情緒緩和一下好 我想 嗯 謝芬署長 確實有霸凌的行為確實有霸凌的行為用破地牢上這樣的用語錯了 我們承認錯誤所以你調查就是確實 有霸凌的行為"},{"start":15784.687,"end":15786.428,"text":"我想要問這次勞動部的無姓同仁的親身的漢氏"},{"start":15810.86,"end":15824.743,"text":"為什麼悲劇發生在11月4號要一直到11月8號才從社群媒體網路得知?難道我們勞動部的長官們都要看報紙才會做事嗎?看社群有事情才會做事情嗎?拖了4天不啟動調查的原因是什麼?委員我一直在本來就有在思考要啟動調查思考"},{"start":15841.449,"end":15866.67,"text":"這個很扯的事情事情發生當天其實我就有在思考思考但是沒有調查為什麼隔這麼多天理由是什麼因為家屬他你說家屬嗎家屬也希望低調可是我想你確定家屬希望低調好我也承認我承認我們啟動調查比較慢的家屬希望低調跟調查也是兩件事吧我承認我們啟動調查比較慢的"},{"start":15868.91,"end":15896.782,"text":"這點跟大家到底我想要問那啟動調查比較慢這些拖的時間難道會不會讓人家覺得你們是在處理輿論也就是我們所謂的壓新聞這就是讓大眾非常疑惑的地方所以如果是這樣的話我想現在是預算會期勞動部的這種媒體宣傳的經費是會有問題的因為這樣看起來你們延後調查就是有這種讓人家覺得壓新聞的過程"},{"start":15898.652,"end":15925.428,"text":"我沒有能力壓新聞好我等一下繼續另外我同樣想要問你因為你們18號得知拖到12號14號才開始訪談嘛那另外這個出勤打卡紀錄今天應該也很多人問過一切看起來沒有問題可是監視器他就是有加班但我想請問你們掌握這樣的情形有掌握到多久他這樣的情況有多久"},{"start":15930.291,"end":15931.052,"text":"你們有去訪談說這個"},{"start":15955.854,"end":15958.096,"text":"你們有去問他嗎?有調查問他嗎?我想他不了解吧"},{"start":15985.307,"end":15999.321,"text":"你一想他不了解,所以你調查裡面也沒有去問這件事嗎?然後如果沒有談,那要怎麼知道長官做了什麼?還有什麼事情才是真正讓委員會壓力大到輕生的真正原因?這就是沒有調查清楚嘛"},{"start":16000.359,"end":16016.269,"text":"所以現在的結論就是如果本人不反應遭到霸凌出情表上看起來正常那無論其他人怎麼反應申訴陳情這些上級長官都不會處理就一定要搞到出了人命新聞壓不下來才要處理囉"},{"start":16018.277,"end":16033.163,"text":"是嗎那我再問訪談相關人固然重要但是要釐清調查真相的相關工作的資料例如LINE、E-mail等才可以更深入的去了解請問這部分有做調查嗎有嗎"},{"start":16037.244,"end":16037.444,"text":"好我請處長來回答好不好"},{"start":16068.361,"end":16076.538,"text":"11月4號我們的人事室主任他都是陪著家屬那當下家屬他是有表達部長"},{"start":16078.146,"end":16096.684,"text":"我問你 這個邏輯非常奇怪你認為家屬在這個無緣被霸凌輕生之後會去跟霸凌者講說不好意思喔就算我家人都被你們霸凌到死我還是希望你們這位始作俑者一直低調不要上媒體這個邏輯就是 就是這樣大眾就是這樣看的好 回到調查結論就是兩個"},{"start":16099.046,"end":16126.096,"text":"現在你們說謝信這個可能要停職嘛對不對本來是說調職但是今天質詢了一天之後你受不了說停職好依問卷訪談及相關的證據顯示謝信長官沒有霸凌你剛剛也也就也就說他是有霸凌是不是你也改口了嘛對不對不是委員我還是要再強調一次他有對其他的同仁霸凌對"},{"start":16129.471,"end":16156.259,"text":"那麼他是通過他對當事者也許他有霸凌是因為通過當通過這樣子層層傳導的方式而形成的所以我想下一個下一個結論喔我們我是要再問早上再繼續追問下去喔我想要請問一下喔這一次的調查裡面這一些這一些人都是這個謝信長官的救世有沒有難道沒有迴避的問題嗎"},{"start":16158.359,"end":16179.757,"text":"包含著召集人,包含著黃琳娜次長還有吳雅惠參事他們都不是調查小組成員都不是,但是他不在裡面,但是難道沒有這個相關的關係嗎?召集人在調查小組裡,但是其他的長官都在就事,這個有沒有,其中有沒有牽扯到大家共同來押案子的問題?"},{"start":16181.127,"end":16197.753,"text":"這也是要求你們調查很重要的地方我要表達的事情告訴你的是這次霸凌申訴調查小組只有兩位外部委員的加入只佔小組的九分之二"},{"start":16198.453,"end":16213.249,"text":"那大部分也都是內部成員所組成那這樣子怎麼可以讓社會感覺到有公信力這部分未來是不是應該要改善不只是增加外部人員的比例就算是外部人員也要嚴格要求迴避這個部分是不是應該未來要這樣處理我會處理最後我要繼續追問事發過程當中"},{"start":16220.868,"end":16246.647,"text":"你有沒有嘗試要把事情壓掉或者是持案你跟署長能夠發誓問心聞愧的摸著你們的良心說完全沒有嗎?絕對沒有有的話你是不是有說要負起政治責任嘛對不對早上那是不是政治責任的意思是說要以下台以示負責是是嘛對不對好那我告訴你你就是有這樣的狀況"},{"start":16248.905,"end":16265.722,"text":"因為如果沒有施壓、施案的話我想要請問部長為什麼要通過黨的系統副秘書長何柏文去聯絡李雨祥一人我想問為什麼要這樣我想問為什麼我跟你講為什麼這樣子可以說是有施壓嫌疑"},{"start":16266.423,"end":16283.592,"text":"因為議員的服務處、議員的手機這個都可以公開都可以找得到的你要聯絡議員服務處非常的簡單何必要透過黨的系統去聯絡議員呢這就好像是你找了比如說你過去可能在"},{"start":16284.693,"end":16296.77,"text":"科建民總召委員的辦公室工作過然後呢科總召可能又跟某個委員關係特別好然後你明明可以直接找到那個委員然後你就是特別跟這個科總召說你幫我跟那個委員講一聲好不好"},{"start":16297.632,"end":16314.41,"text":"這樣子就是有間接讓人社會大眾覺得這叫做間接性的好像說我被關切了我是不是要小心一點因為你透過的是黨的系統所以我要告訴你這個東西就是間接性的施壓而且也可以視為想要試圖有試圖有嫌疑試圖要押案的這個狀況"},{"start":16316.857,"end":16343.286,"text":"委員你認為李議員他後來有停止對我的監督嗎?完全沒有啊沒有這種東西這種東西這只能夠說這樣子施壓不代表他一定會被你壓嘛對不對但是你這就是過程你用你透過黨的高層來告訴我就好像你說今天你找了這個高層來這裡跟一個議員說他找你喔這個勞動部長找你他會不會覺得說我好像被施壓了"},{"start":16344.127,"end":16360.779,"text":"就是這個樣子那我問你那你整個內容是什麼你有跟他聯絡上嗎?跟誰?跟這個議員那個李議員啊我本人嗎?對那為什麼你要透過秘書那個副秘書長何柏文去聯絡這個議員呢?"},{"start":16363.308,"end":16390.064,"text":"我們當然要聯繫上阿因為我們必須提供資料給委員給議員阿所以我請我的我請我的這個同仁慕瑤同仁提供資料給他是這樣而已我要告訴你也是部長你居然透過外部的第三人去聯繫爆料的明袋那有證據現場如果有證據有沒有什麼證據不公開我想問聽說有不具名的說現場也有留下類似遺書的東西請問內容是什麼有嗎什麼現場"},{"start":16393.513,"end":16414.466,"text":"沒有公開?內容是什麼?這個我們得尊重家屬那你們有去調查過嗎?內容有沒有跟這個霸凌有關係?我們有看過啊,可是我們不能公開這些東西家屬不同意公開?對不對?我們要尊重家屬啦那家屬有說同意不同意嗎?如果委員想了解,我們得去問過家屬"},{"start":16416.195,"end":16438.702,"text":"我要告訴妳的是妳們有沒有認真地去調查這件事情是當然我們都去了解所以我想問妳說家屬有家屬有確切說不想要讓人家知道嗎委員容我們針對職場的部分有一部分他告訴自己的家屬有一部分他是針對他職場的部分有提到嗎有提到他在職場上面受到相關的資料嗎委員"},{"start":16443.82,"end":16446.309,"text":"因為這個是家屬的痛啦"},{"start":16447.731,"end":16475.184,"text":"我當然知道是家屬的痛我們都不希望憾事再發生所以我還是要回過頭來說基本上部長就是我只能夠說你透過了外部人透過了黨的系統去聯繫爆料的明帶而且明帶的資料很好去聯繫我隨便上網找你就找得到這個李議員服務處的聯絡方式甚至議會都很容易找到所以我要告訴你的是你這樣的行為就會讓人家覺得這不是吃案那什麼是吃案"},{"start":16476.266,"end":16485.374,"text":"因為你明明有很正當的管道可以去聯繫的所以我要說那這樣子算不算需要負責任你在做這件事情之前你有沒有深思熟慮過"},{"start":16499.434,"end":16520.224,"text":"我不認為這是詞案你不認為這是詞案你還是不認為這是詞案你透過黨的系統去聯繫民意爆料民意代表你說這不是詞案好我希望全國各位觀眾可以去思考這個問題這樣究竟有沒有間接施壓這樣究竟是不是想要間接的壓新聞間接的叫人家不要再爆下去了事實上"},{"start":16522.222,"end":16540.233,"text":"事實上你可以用很正當的管道去告訴他們說發生什麼事我來跟你報告我把資料跟你講但是你卻透過了同一個派系的勇言會的副秘書長要去跟這個李議員講我跟你講這不是慈愛 什麼是慈愛好 謝謝好 謝謝戴偉祥委員那下一位請我們蘇欽前委員"},{"start":16559.011,"end":16580.469,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請國防部次長 楊次長好 請國防部次長次長 所有人好我給部長休息一下啦 我看他累嘛有人說這個案件是洪仲修的2.0版"},{"start":16582.987,"end":16599.055,"text":"你們那個國防部以前洪仲丘這個案子我很注意那個書叫做不當管教不當管教後來檢調查了是我們指揮官也被拔掉了所以你對於勞動部這一次的事情"},{"start":16599.835,"end":16628.774,"text":"你的看法怎麼樣?這個勞動部的這個事情實在是不便發表個人的在這個地方發表個人的看法但是對於洪祚秋這個事情的確是一個令人遺憾的事情那國防部對這個事情發生之後我們也做了相關的檢討那不管是司法調查或是我們自己內部調查方面都還給這個事情都把這個事情給還原了把這個事情的真相給釐清了跟召委報告"},{"start":16630.516,"end":16634.071,"text":"我們軍中還有我們警察、警戒"},{"start":16635.615,"end":16661.988,"text":"還有我們的外交部都一直層出不窮傳出很多海外的像橫濱的處長也是自殺身亡那當然跟我們派在那邊的大使有沒有關係大家各說各話然後巴西外館也出問題那警察裡面像屏東也有警察所長跟警員"},{"start":16663.826,"end":16678.886,"text":"吵吵鬧鬧什麼都有所以對於這種公務體系的這種失控跟脫序的行為我們軍中看法怎麼樣你們要怎麼做往後怎麼做"},{"start":16681.162,"end":16695.582,"text":"這個合理的管教包括委員合理的管教還有這個善待部署照顧官兵這是我們國防部一直在努力的目標那也跟各位委員還有各位委員報告這個軍隊是一個跟民間"},{"start":16696.977,"end":16717.183,"text":"或是公部門管理有點區隔的這個管理的方式是有點區隔的因為我們講求的是絕對服從我們的軍人將來在戰場上面一定要執行保國衛民的責任在某種訓練上面我們要講求絕對服從在某種管理上面我們也必須要嚴格有相當的紀律這個要特別跟委員做報告了那當然不可以因為這個樣子"},{"start":16718.063,"end":16719.144,"text":"我當海軍陸戰隊的我們以前叫合理的"},{"start":16734.138,"end":16751.356,"text":"那不合理的這是什麼合理叫訓練不合理叫磨練那這句話現在還管用嗎還是繼續這樣混下去沒有沒有現在您放心絕對不會有這樣的現象好那部長請上來吧謝委員"},{"start":16757.032,"end":16761.033,"text":"我承認我不及格我覺得這件事情你的部分我查理"},{"start":16786.843,"end":16808.319,"text":"會有發生事情有人向你通報有沒有人通報給你如果你都不知道啊被資訊被block掉那你就無理直言那你是怎麼說這個資訊這個環境有起的那你沒處理那你就你不對了那你感覺你是怎樣你是完全不知道還是"},{"start":16814.473,"end":16833.206,"text":"早上一直質詢到現在 聽太多了 聽太多了有的是說他這個分署長肚子很硬 什麼不管 我有去查啦他的身家背景 他的娘家 他的婆家 我有去查啦我那不錯啦 我那經濟民情好 不做這個套路不吃這個套路也沒關係啦 也沒關係齁所以在這裡是在表演 在做表演就對了"},{"start":16842.884,"end":16850.351,"text":"那你如果說你當部長是政務官是要對政策負責那裡面的內控"},{"start":16852.827,"end":16877.379,"text":"這些下面反映的事情你是怎麼來接受這些管道或者是如果你沒有再繼續因為太龐大了 人員太多了就一個勞動發展署就包括業聘僱人員就有2000多人那是很多啊 怕死人所有的員額裡面真的公務人員占不到四分之一其他都是業聘僱的"},{"start":16879.076,"end":16905.169,"text":"那我們公務體系的業聘僱人員真的養太多了而且那個勞動條件也不太好待遇也不太好像我們食藥署在邊境查驗的資訊都很假的每天都被窮犯在海關那裡寸步難行那我們勞動力發展署這邊或是勞動部這邊如果是有這樣子的話我是覺得要檢討啦"},{"start":16906.775,"end":16922.526,"text":"那如果是薪水太低也要給人家高啦那我覺得公務人員齁我這裡要跟大家肯定啦大家都磕磕磕磕到要死喔磕磕磕到要死要來這裡上這個班齁那薪水又沒有在外面管啦在外面醫療界看這個薪水實在是沒有管啦"},{"start":16923.747,"end":16942.118,"text":"每天在那裡拖著忙我就覺得很不捨很不捨我看健保署裡面那些員工也都是蠻累的也不能申請加班費我們在外面的財團法院或社團法院的醫院那個申請加班是沒有人敢擋的"},{"start":16943.43,"end":16965.518,"text":"那你們勞動部是在要求人家的職業安全條件的結果你們裡面都是過勞三更半夜在發LINE我不敢三更半夜給我們的員工發LINE我怕我怕人家給我投訴你這樣三個半夜發LINE亂搞一通然後還要10分鐘回覆有這種事嗎?部長"},{"start":16969.198,"end":16975.541,"text":"而且動不動會自己制裁這個是很無可理喻所以這個心理教育因為這個董事長本身我看是念社工的嘛"},{"start":16997.048,"end":17025.503,"text":"是劣色功德,應該同理心很強所以我看你要整個系統要檢討啦當然,那是系統的問題為你的市長、為你的署長都要一個一個檢討,整個系統要檢查不然的話這個還是會出事啦我看還是會出事所以今天你這樣你自己已經半年半年就任半年你自己打不及格我是給你鼓勵啦"},{"start":17026.463,"end":17030.925,"text":"這次教訓是一個很有意義的教訓我想我出來勞動部我也是第一次進到行政部門"},{"start":17052.813,"end":17080.321,"text":"那麼對龐大的官僚體系其實我是陌生的所以我也非常介乘恐懼那麼我期待跟文官之間發展出一個合作友善的關係可是我也忽略了文官體制之間有難以掌控的陋習或者是惡習乃至於我不曾想像的我早上講的"},{"start":17082.185,"end":17107.293,"text":"那個邪惡的問題那整個文官體制跟我們當今的民主政治體制之間又存在著非常大的鴻溝跟落差我們的社群網路媒體政治對於我們的文官體制的凌遲跟剝削也是不遑多讓的我親眼看到我的文官"},{"start":17109.488,"end":17109.788,"text":"那我當然"},{"start":17138.547,"end":17138.627,"text":"主席"},{"start":17171.125,"end":17181.098,"text":"來 接續請屠前級委員質詢好 謝謝主席那還是請我們部長 辛苦了委員好"},{"start":17187.662,"end":17203.931,"text":"好 何部長那我知道今天你壓力也很大啦也很辛苦但是這個社會大眾大家很關注的事情我覺得有些地方我們還是要說明來釐清一下因為針對我們前次長王安邦說"},{"start":17206.007,"end":17227.42,"text":"我之前做議員的時候跟我們王次長那時候他在市府也是擔任局長所以我們也算認識了那我們一直針對王次長到底有沒有約過謝芬署長這一部分好像一直大家都沒有說得很清楚是不是到底部長到底他有沒有事先約談我們的謝芬署長"},{"start":17228.18,"end":17249.126,"text":"其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦"},{"start":17250.286,"end":17270.841,"text":"他們說這根本就是有約談只是重點約談以後這個案子被誰擋掉被誰吃掉他說這才是調查的重點我相信剛剛部長應該也有聽得很清楚啦所以我也希望針對這部分真的希望好好的去調查因為我們都認為說這件事情感覺"},{"start":17272.282,"end":17301.184,"text":"並不是一個謝分署長個人的事情就像媒體一直在講這個感覺就是後台很硬而且我們知道王安邦次長在凌晨晚上12點的時候匆匆被發布離職新聞稿那時候我們也開玩笑講說奇怪這個霸凌被約談的分署長沒有離職反而約談人的次長就離職或許這部長認為可能這是一個巧合"},{"start":17302.065,"end":17331.281,"text":"可是我覺得這一份的調查報告真的真的很重要我相信社會大眾也很想知道也很想釐清剛剛你看這個臨時提案不但是國民黨通過連民進黨執政的執政黨他們也認為這個事情真的有必要調查的清清楚楚而且該送檢調送檢調該送監察的送監察那這部分也希望部長因為今天大家對你"},{"start":17331.961,"end":17356.568,"text":"你們今天做的勞動部的報告真的是不滿意啦那而且據我們了解監察院現在也要介入調查那你會不會擔心監察院到時候做出來的調查跟我們勞動部好像不太一樣因為我們勞動部說這個無性職員這一部分跟謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係你們的報告是不是這樣子"},{"start":17359.779,"end":17385.255,"text":"對嘛你認為沒有直接的關係那其實喔針對這部分我們也看過你的報告就是說他針對這部分我們有兩個重點一個就是當然剛剛你要講謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁但是這個無姓的死因跟謝分署長的霸凌你說你們的報告是說沒有直接的關係"},{"start":17386.495,"end":17411.172,"text":"但是有間接的關係那其實針對這部分我們也很關心我也看過很多網路網友我也跟你分享一下可是我覺得聽了很諷刺啊他說這個沒有直接的死因跟霸凌無關但是跟這根繩子有關我覺得講這個話真的對我們的報告是很諷刺啊覺得他們覺得你這個報告根本"},{"start":17411.992,"end":17436.432,"text":"民眾是沒有辦法接受的所以這部分我希望剛剛有講說要重啟調查我覺得這個重啟調查或許對勞動部我覺得也是一個好事希望真的讓真相大白不要讓我們社會大眾大家心中有這個疑慮在因為畢竟現在有關於這霸凌而且有關於一條人命還有受害者的家屬"},{"start":17437.827,"end":17465.918,"text":"好那針對這部分還有我請問一下我們蔡署長那給部長休息一下蔡署長那請問一下你看一下這一張簡報大概的時間表我們是在11月8號這個新聞曝光那署長是不是在11月8號之前有到北分署去來關心我們這些同仁有去做一些安撫是好像是11月7號去的嘛是"},{"start":17466.997,"end":17494.771,"text":"那針對這一部分針對這一部分喔那我部長針對這一部分部長後來有沒有去北分署去跟我們這些同仁做一個溝通安撫一下我本來有要去的啦那後來因為當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動"},{"start":17496.01,"end":17521.106,"text":"那也有同仁似乎也有同仁認為我不應該去那麼我就尊重啦對所以其實可能為什麼我會啟動調查也是這個原因所以可能為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢那一定有問題好像其實我看分屬的同仁好像這個事情發生後很多人也對"},{"start":17522.347,"end":17532.859,"text":"部長好像也不是很諒解因為其實據我們了解勞動部很多同仁現在都一直在看部長的態度都希望部長針對這部分真的要研辦因為"},{"start":17537.564,"end":17556.457,"text":"從我剛剛看臨時動議我一直覺得部長好像給我感覺好像還是有一點包袱針對這個停職的部分你一直好像並沒有很明確而且希望好像還希望有轉圜的餘地不是不是委員我跟您報告這絕對會是我考慮的範圍而且"},{"start":17564.611,"end":17574.949,"text":"這個是沒有問題的對啊我希望部長你還是要表現你的態度啦那剛剛很多委員也擔心這分署長如果還待在分署裡面"},{"start":17576.089,"end":17599.551,"text":"可能還是會影響這個調查報告他不會再在分署裡面所以基本上如果他停職近代調查我覺得對部長也是一個好事那現在部長的態度我希望說要讓給我們勞動部這些同仁要有信心要感覺是真的要來處理這件事情不要變成很多事情他們不敢真正表態還利用網路去爆料去講這些事情"},{"start":17600.231,"end":17618.727,"text":"希望這個調查報告在做的時候能夠得到社會大眾的認同因為針對我們謝分署長其實剛剛早上大家也知道你看他到分署不到兩年的時間這退離職就高達81個人有6個人是自願降職來調離的"},{"start":17621.269,"end":17635.595,"text":"所以想想看這個官場大家都希望升職居然這麼多人寧可掉職都要離開這個地方所以這部分我相信大家都很想知道為什麼我們憲分署長有這麼強硬的後台還有這個報告"},{"start":17640.444,"end":17663.408,"text":"其實裡面也不用再講了這是什麼目的良善什麼這個整早上大家委員還有很多社會大眾都對這個報告真的看不下去還有我們針對分署長他在這個職務之前我請問一下他之前有沒有發生過類似霸凌的事情在這之前做分署長之前我不瞭解這要問署長"},{"start":17664.301,"end":17691.874,"text":"蔡署長報告委員之前並沒有之前並沒有嗎對所以所以其實我們了解喔這個縣署長霸凌的行為你們的報告是說跟情緒管理溝通能力有關那其實喔像針對這部分我們是覺得我們分署啊那個蔡署長你你可以說明一下我們的北分署他的業務大概有幾個重點嗎"},{"start":17694.071,"end":17716.185,"text":"跟委員報告喔北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面轄區最大那基本上他的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一他主要的業務範圍主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實他的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長喔"},{"start":17717.728,"end":17726.095,"text":"我們看一下他的資歷喔其實他做這個分署長你看一下你看他裡面哪一個資歷是跟就業服務跟職業訓練有關係的"},{"start":17729.96,"end":17731.66,"text":"我本人就是我本來是在移工業務但是後來我到中區執訓做職業訓練"},{"start":17759.993,"end":17776.267,"text":"對那針對這部分我們認為你看剛剛署長你有講他之前沒有之前我們分署長你看他之前沒有一些霸凌的事情發生然後後來"},{"start":17777.793,"end":17791.873,"text":"他做這個分署長其實跟他的業務並沒有他的專長然後你看一下他的資歷其實主管的是公關業務跟新人聯絡人其實照這樣來講他的EQ跟溝通能力應該是沒有關係的"},{"start":17793.095,"end":17813.368,"text":"那可是你看他到這個團隊來其實會讓人家感覺他外行在領導這個內行然後整天要我們的同仁發新聞稿做媒體經營所以難怪會造成我們下面的同仁感覺壓力很大"},{"start":17815.854,"end":17831.191,"text":"署長你有沒有覺得當初升任他做分署長的時候是依什麼考量而且看這樣來講人家說他是做直升級也沒有擔任他只是部裡的一個專委一下就升到分署長這個是不是感覺升官的途徑有點快"},{"start":17834.485,"end":17863.778,"text":"報告委員這個案子其實我們每位主管在升任的過程當中會有一些評估那當然他現在針對這個事件有一些不當的情況我想這個都必須要深切去檢討對啊所以署長因為這個事情那時候大家直指當然是不是我們何沛山部長的任內升的分署長是之前我們許民春部長然後我們的署長也是我們蔡孟良署長那其實媒體一直報導這你們就是"},{"start":17865.749,"end":17881.774,"text":"同一個派系聽說是我們局系一脈相傳下來然後許民村部長然後也是然後我們這個謝分署長聽說也是我們蔡署長的愛將我希望針對這個部分的問題我們還是要嚴加來"},{"start":17886.127,"end":17906.772,"text":"查看、針對這個調查報告一定要詳細的來做因為我們從我們整體評估這個結果你看其實我們勞動部針對這個報告我們剛剛問了那麼多我們發現勞動部有很多問題他是不敢面對而且一直在迴避他"},{"start":17907.552,"end":17921.831,"text":"整個報告只針對情緒失控跟言語暴力還有職場霸凌跟同仁恣意這兩個部分去處理其實縱觀看我們謝芬署長他本身不是這個"},{"start":17923.492,"end":17942.288,"text":"專業本行出身那他的外行要領導我們下面這些高普考這些這些我們勞動部分屬的這些官員所以他本身喔對於職業訓練跟就業服務也不是專長也不是在行所以他欠缺了我們業務的能力"},{"start":17942.952,"end":17966.938,"text":"而且在看他的資歷來講也是屬於我們署長跟前部長破格任用那當然他本身外行領導內行我們認為他本身到這個位置以前沒有霸凌的問題後來為什麼有我們是認為應該是他自己本身壓力太大所以我們希望除了之前針對"},{"start":17968.238,"end":17968.258,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":17997.165,"end":18023.237,"text":"好,那部長跟署長也辛苦喔,但是喔我們希望喔,勞動部從這一次之後能夠痛丁失痛喔,把一些我們這些問題喔藉由這一次的調查報告我們來釐清,大家好好來檢討改善因為我們勞動部喔,勞動部喔是我們全國最高的勞工的中央機關喔大家都非常關注喔好,謝謝謝謝主委,謝謝部長來,接續我們請楊耀偉委員質詢"},{"start":18035.141,"end":18050.13,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請一下何部長和蔡署長部長好 署長好署長我先問一個問題聽說你們勞動力發展署大樓裡面有長官的專屬電梯"},{"start":18063.19,"end":18063.831,"text":"我現在這樣子直接講"},{"start":18093.09,"end":18117.786,"text":"為什麼我先提電梯呢?這就是會養成一個官僚的心態啊立法院衛環委員會在8樓,財政委員會在9樓,我們也沒有委員專題啊你們用了一個長官專題,我為什麼特別提出來?因為這種習性不改,你就沒有辦法痛定思痛啊"},{"start":18119.758,"end":18129.905,"text":"很多職場上的行為是源自一個看似無關的情況產生的"},{"start":18133.697,"end":18155.034,"text":"我還是這一次才知道說書店分書店這麼大有專用的路好不好我直接問你啦那個是大樓管委會設定的大樓管理管委會不是我們管委會設定你們不能主動要求不要啊"},{"start":18157.015,"end":18178.831,"text":"對這個這個我們我就說我就說我真的不想不想在這裡太為難你可是你們回復真的要很小心我就不相信我就不相信你們沒有要求人家特別特別弄了一個長官的的座梯然後你們你們沒有能力去去更改這個現象我才不相信就是說"},{"start":18188.594,"end":18211.509,"text":"這個王顧的公務員在事發前10月22到11月1號大概每天都是早上7點多上班到下午7、8點才下班啊血汗啊你們勞動部主管全國勞工的工作權益你們自己這麼搞啊"},{"start":18213.766,"end":18240.356,"text":"然後分組長有的時候會半夜一點五點給人家傳訊息不回隔天就修理人這個是不是事實兩件事情第一件第一件可以很明確就是就是從10月22到11月10號早上每天都是早上五點多上班到七八點這個是不是事實報告委員這是事實"},{"start":18242.762,"end":18266.115,"text":"分署長有沒有都是把有時候會半夜1點多交付交辦事項然後或者是5點多沒有回會修理人這個是不是事實報告委員這個調查報告裡面有呈現這個部分有對不對好那欸"},{"start":18270.801,"end":18298.996,"text":"為什麼這樣子長期超時工作的單位北分署跟勞發署是同一個同一個辦公大樓是不是是所以嘛你們做專題嘛所以你們聽不到基層的聲音嘛你事前全部都不知道不知道北分署這麼血汗不知道你知道嗎"},{"start":18300.342,"end":18324.901,"text":"發委員因為沒有來北分署沒有跟我們做好北分署沒有跟你做那個那我給你一個資料從謝宜榮分署長到任到去年年底北分署離職率高了一倍啊從5點多%攀升到11%多"},{"start":18328.666,"end":18354.766,"text":"最新的統計數字今年的離職率來到13.5這麼高的離職率你作為署長你全部沒有覺得假如不是工作內容太繁複工作環境太差就是領導同意有問題你全部不告不理"},{"start":18358.41,"end":18371.057,"text":"你任何一點感覺都沒有不覺得這種離職率太高離職的人裡面81人其中有17個是主管職務總會到你那裡吧你不覺得奇怪怪不怪保委員這個是異常這個確實我們必須要檢討異常書定你現在承認異常"},{"start":18388.513,"end":18398.197,"text":"那這個狀態是持續性的你為什麼要等到悲劇發生了全國的民意沸騰了你們才要檢討為什麼有收過投訴案嗎"},{"start":18414.775,"end":18439.656,"text":"有嗎?所以沒有投訴你們就不會從相關的數據自己去去去看看這個你看喔南分數的離職率是5%阿是北分數的三成阿三分之一阿蘇定比比是你的分數"},{"start":18442.438,"end":18470.86,"text":"有一個離職率這麼高你們也不主動去關心看看而且還跟你同一棟辦公室好我再問剛剛組長在回復土委員的時候說謝芬組長派任前並沒有霸凌的前科對不對對不對沒有接到投訴沒有好"},{"start":18472.165,"end":18499.826,"text":"你知道為什麼嗎?他在從是公職以來到他當分署長他的主管職務是什麼?主管歷練是什麼?他歷練過什麼組長?主管有幹過組長嗎?科長有幹過啦?科長有沒有?有有齁組長有嗎?"},{"start":18501.94,"end":18502.781,"text":"沒有副組長有嗎沒有那當然沒有機會讓他表現啊那為什麼為什麼這樣子可以破格任用為什麼為什麼"},{"start":18526.179,"end":18531.821,"text":"跟委員報告因為是因為你們其他的副分署長都不堪用還是真的謝分署長有通天的本領"},{"start":18540.376,"end":18564.243,"text":"發言委員其實完全沒有這個因素的考慮沒有這個因素沒有這個因素會有一個會有一個只當過科長主管歷練的人直接直接就跑去當分署長然後署長來這邊還回覆其他的委員說他在當分署長之前沒有沒有霸凌的前科是他沒有機會啊"},{"start":18573.627,"end":18600.3,"text":"蘇定 大家都說謝芬署長是你和徐明川前部長的愛將所以才破格任用你有沒有什麼話要說報告委員 署長的任用並不會單純去考慮這個因素因為我們完全是以能力跟他的私人性去處理好 主席不好意思我再耽誤一點點時間"},{"start":18603.834,"end":18631.36,"text":"這種這種任用這種升格任用有算不算違反常規你直接這樣子這樣子回答就好了我不要說破格破格你們可能覺得覺得不好聽有沒有違反常規你們現在的分署長裡面跟謝分署長同樣用用這種模式升到分署長的有誰"},{"start":18634.636,"end":18651.961,"text":"各位委員報告,像以我們現在的分數其實就是要考慮到他要符合身兼的一個資格我知道啦,我知道你沒有違法任用啦我現在說有沒有違反常規嘛因為他的主管歷練太少了嘛我認為就是因為他的主管任用歷練太少所以才會爆發這件事嘛"},{"start":18663.598,"end":18674.723,"text":"你沒有讓他有發揮領導統一能力的職務歷練你就把他提到分署長這個職務所以我光是聽錄音檔我就覺得那個不是一個政府的機關一個單位是一個幫派的堂口"},{"start":18695.869,"end":18701.072,"text":"蘇帝努你之前跟他說有沒有違法當然沒有違法啊我現在就是問說違反常規為什麼你和許民尊部長當初當初任用他"},{"start":18718.082,"end":18732.718,"text":"要做分署長讓你們會介意他沒有經過所長、沒有做過副署長、直接對專委空降去當分署長表示你們對他的領導同意是很有把握的嘛是不用透過其他的職務來考核你們就絕對信任嘛"},{"start":18750.193,"end":18754.375,"text":"委員這個是我自己都要自我檢討我會自我反省署長一條人命啊"},{"start":18781.581,"end":18796.193,"text":"你們主管全國勞工工作權益保障的單位六七年來應該做的事情不做惹出了一大堆遺憾的事啊蘇甯這六七年保甯"},{"start":18808.564,"end":18812.067,"text":"部長很遺憾是發生在你的任內那你來趙委員請坐我真的這裡講完就結束很遺憾就是你也已經來6個月了在這段時間"},{"start":18834.656,"end":18858.744,"text":"你沒有發現到內部有這麼嚴重的霸凌事件我覺得你也要負一些責任不是說大家為難你們因為這個是這一件事情不好好處理"},{"start":18860.402,"end":18879.568,"text":"這一件事情不好好處理我覺得我覺得全國人民對於對於執政團隊會非常的失望而且而且特別是對勞動部我剛剛講的就是我的觀察這六七年來六七年啊"},{"start":18881.171,"end":18902.282,"text":"勞動部很少幹過一件好的事情倒是惹出了這麼大的憾事好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝 謝謝楊耀那我們現在休息3分鐘行政院那邊來拜託啦 有事情啦"},{"start":18907.125,"end":18908.005,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":18933.814,"end":18934.214,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18960.842,"end":18976.629,"text":"請勞動部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、行政院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":18979.816,"end":18987.46,"text":"請勞動部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":18991.328,"end":18992.549,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19016.839,"end":19017.359,"text":"好,我來跟他們說。"},{"start":19042.419,"end":19043,"text":"多謝您的收看。"},{"start":19167.104,"end":19194.978,"text":"好繼續開會接續請郭國文委員執行謝謝主席有請何沛山部長跟蔡夢良署長部長署長請我也好部長署長我現在用很沉重的心情來看這件事情"},{"start":19196.87,"end":19224.481,"text":"勞動部的這一個霸凌事件的檢討報告不承認霸凌但是勞動部的這個霸凌報告其實是霸凌了台灣社會侮辱了大家對這個事件本質的認知我不會全然怪部長跟署長這裡頭有制度的問題有文化的問題還有心態的問題特別是權傾一詞人的心態特別容易霸凌別人"},{"start":19225.595,"end":19252.089,"text":"保發中心就曾經發生過的事情在上個月的時候還來我的辦公室來做說明公不明霸凌的文化是如此盛行這真的是值得讓我們好好自我深思的地方部長不瞞你說我也在勞動部任職過我如果說我有被霸凌你相信嗎這就是權傾一時的文化所造成的結果"},{"start":19253.547,"end":19280.601,"text":"所以我們面對這個文化的時候我不會覺得科則你部長、科則你署長我絕對不是來護航但是我們坐在這個位置擔任這個角色我們能做什麼我覺得你要一肩扛起如果有人說要請你辭職我倒是覺得你要一肩扛起待事情到一段的程度之後再來面對我們能夠作為一個政治工作者能改善多少都是我們作為一個政治工作者的一個責任"},{"start":19283.12,"end":19311.995,"text":"我舉一個例子來說你早上說要重新檢討我相信是承擔責任的重新開始我希望你用最快的時間裡頭來重新面對社會的認知此外呢我也調過衛福委員會曾經在109年、110年、11年的時候都有職場霸凌的專報那時候依照職安法的時候提出一個執行職務遭受不法侵害的預防指引"},{"start":19313.635,"end":19342.88,"text":"提出這個指引當中我特別去看他還有寫到說要對於受害人應提供立即性、持續性及支持性的保護措施我想請問你無性員工這件事情有受到這樣的保護措施嗎?在你的認知當中?沒有這還是勞動部自行公布的這還是勞動部自行公布的好我們再來看看"},{"start":19344.824,"end":19372.485,"text":"人事總處的時候曾經發文要求各部會當中要有員工職場霸凌防治與處理作業要點我在網路上看看到的只有教育部我沒有看到勞動部我想請問一下勞動部有嗎人事總處就是說我們連制度上面對這種霸凌文化的一個"},{"start":19374.096,"end":19402.939,"text":"整治的時候我們都如此怠惰好 我再跟您說我們如果從制度面來說的話日本在2019年的時候勞動施策綜合推進法納入這個霸凌的這個規定也就有一個事前的預防跟事後的立即因應特別強調僱主有義務及責任因應及防範職場霸凌這也就俗稱的職場霸凌防治法"},{"start":19404.67,"end":19430.431,"text":"可是呢我們臺灣目前為止都還是停留在指導行政命令部長我慎重的請教你你認為這個指導命令有沒有需要法制化的空間有沒有需要法制化的可能你認為需要有法制化的空間法制化的回答在這個整個也就是說你願意來推動這個職場霸凌法"},{"start":19432.955,"end":19458.653,"text":"是不是專法或許可以再討論是不是專法或許是但是如果專法是展現決心個別條文的這個法制化也是另一種展現問題是不是能夠防治啊所以我是覺得你趁這個事件當中應該對外宣示講得很清楚勞動部願意從這個事件當中痛定思痛徹底檢討"},{"start":19460.964,"end":19471.711,"text":"從勞動部本身啊就要去除掉這個職場霸凌的文化用最嚴格的標準來檢驗自己用最嚴格的標準來做為示範部長當然當然這是一定要的我希望你的眼淚可以化為力量我們期待這制度文化可以改變謝謝謝謝郭國文委員謝謝部長接著請楊祥平委員質詢"},{"start":19497.082,"end":19523.993,"text":"主席本席楊全宇發言 邀請部長跟署長委員好部長 大家都沉痛的心情但是我們還是要實質討論一個政府應該是先知先覺當有了事情是有知有覺但是我現在看到的沒有先知先覺"},{"start":19526.019,"end":19545.351,"text":"甚至也沒有有知有覺現在是不知不覺從早上回答到現在首先請問在一個單位上任一年半已經有81個理事17個主管難道你們的部門都沒發覺嗎都沒發覺嗎17個主管都沒發覺嗎"},{"start":19551.523,"end":19570.337,"text":"為什麼我們以往說勞動部是勞工的靠山對不對勞動部是勞工的靠山對不對對不對勞動部是勞工的靠山對不對那現在出現什麼勞動部帶頭當慣老闆整個的過程發生到現在"},{"start":19580.694,"end":19596.184,"text":"非但沒有依法也沒有防範也沒有處置怎麼辦也沒有維護所以本期在這邊請教第一個到底是誰生的這麼樣破格到底是誰生的委員因為我那是在我上任前的事情我真的部長誰生的"},{"start":19610.745,"end":19627.317,"text":"有誰要吞嚕?誰生的?是你自己生嗎?你背後誰叫你生的?誰叫你生的?你要不要講出來?你自己要吞嚕?誰叫你生的?你要不要講?你要不要講?你不要講?你要講?誰指示你生的嘛?"},{"start":19640.931,"end":19657.16,"text":"對不對 誰指示你生的 署長 你不要自己吞嚕啦 誰指示你生的 有沒有人指示你生你陳抱到布裡頭 當然要陳抱到布裡頭啊 誰指示你生的我們現在解決問題 還原真相 誰指示你生"},{"start":19667.205,"end":19685.709,"text":"發言委員,其實這個沒有只是申請了,這是因為有整個考量之後,那依照程序簽報了。署長你有駕駛也好,你不講,你自己吞嚕,我們繼續來討論。81個離職在這樣的情況之下,其中這一年半,你們有沒有輔導?有沒有?"},{"start":19689.264,"end":19693.267,"text":"有沒有輔導?都沒有輔導來又說要法辦告密者從二月份到現在通通不知不覺造成這樣子的難過的事件發生怎麼對得起?怎麼對得起?你們都不講"},{"start":19716.896,"end":19724.038,"text":"發現這麼嚴肅跳通的事情也沒有去輔導也沒有去了解什麼原因通通都沒有為什麼我們是政府耶政府是人民的表率耶離譜自己不知不覺真的不知不覺麻木不仁"},{"start":19750.131,"end":19758.958,"text":"哪有一個勞工的靠山勞動部竟然要由外圍來讓你知道事情怎麼可能會如此這個政府出了什麼問題你也不講誰指示你生發現這麼嚴肅的過程也沒有輔導"},{"start":19776.158,"end":19781.322,"text":"我們自己勞動部一天到晚說我是勞工的保障者你自己帶頭當慣老闆而且還麻木不仁怎麼問怎麼問從早上問到現在沒有方向怎麼問沒有內容沒有過程所以我請問"},{"start":19806.26,"end":19834.119,"text":"我們執行職務遭受不法侵害這個預防的質疑這也是我們自己定的也是勞動部自己定的性騷擾大家發覺社會面向這有嚴肅的議題了不斷的公聽會不斷的討論大家不斷的提案不分藍綠白大家努力來去解決這個問題性騷擾防治法通過"},{"start":19835.188,"end":19862.449,"text":"至少它有一個嚇阻作用會不會將執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的內容將職場霸凌的部分提升到法的位階會不會事情經過了那麼久你們有沒有一項可以告訴民眾告訴我們的勞工可以怎樣讓我們的勞工來放心你至少要做這個工作啊部長"},{"start":19863.499,"end":19884.058,"text":"報告委員我是財主署長容我來說這簡單的回答我們現在依照職安法第6條第2項確實有職場霸凌其他預防的一些明確的條文規定那我們在事宜性質也訂了一個指引所以早上部長有跟其他委員做一些口頭的回答說我們這個指引的法效性在做強化這部分我們會做後面這個職安法修法的"},{"start":19886.127,"end":19899.914,"text":"我們現在這個子安法的預告應該是在預告版本的時候把這個條文一起納出來討論應該是在下個會期我們希望子安法這個修法包括這不法侵害的強化性的條文在下個會期能夠到立法院來做請委員來跟我們做一些質詢"},{"start":19904.056,"end":19916.809,"text":"已經碰到這麼嚴肅的議題我們立法要有經過預告程序然後到行政院去審核再會到送到那個立法院來做審查那你就明白讓他們在整個過程你們已經有這個指引你們有沒有有依照這個指引來輔導這個無信"},{"start":19921.013,"end":19921.333,"text":"每一個社會層面層層相扣"},{"start":19940.191,"end":19966.201,"text":"所以你現在給本席回答的也就是你認為必須要將執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的部分必須要位階提高拉到法的一個層次而且去明定之而且他的整個強化整個實際的救濟管道讓他非常的明確而不是投訴無門由外圍來包圍內部跟委員報告是不是如此請告訴本席方向是不是如此"},{"start":19966.721,"end":19967.181,"text":"提醒委員．部長．"},{"start":19988.359,"end":20016.408,"text":"我們來討論一個實質問題剛剛你所屬的主管所講的我們有什麼法有什麼指引但是我說的盲目不仁都沒有做造成今天的憾事你心裡作何感想您告訴我們說這一位人員禮拜五你要公佈他要到哪個單位去對不對"},{"start":20018.194,"end":20041.567,"text":"是不是是不是委員我會馬上對他作出處分你說什麼我會馬上對他作出處分不是你早上有回答嗎我們在看啊你說你會在禮拜五的時候22號去公佈是嗎他要到哪個單位是不是如此我想會比禮拜五更早"},{"start":20043.168,"end":20056.878,"text":"會比禮拜五更早好 不管這個時間因為早上你的回答是禮拜五所以本席也要預防性的告訴你當他到哪一個單位會不會製造另一個單位的恐慌會不會 你要怎麼處理你要如何怎樣去激你諮商大家會不會有另外一個轉移戰場的一個恐慌會不會不是把他丟到哪一個單位就沒事啊"},{"start":20071.957,"end":20097.614,"text":"部長你沒想到這一點當然當然那你怎麼做你說未必禮拜五今天禮拜三明天禮拜四你原本在早上說禮拜五公佈那你有做本席剛剛所說的嗎我想委員會也都做出建議的處分方式委員會做出建議的處分你是部長本席要請教當他到任何一個單位那會不會製造另外一個單位的一個恐慌"},{"start":20098.789,"end":20101.11,"text":"你會對他作出停止的處分?是。什麼時候?"},{"start":20125.762,"end":20126.222,"text":"在最快的時間內"},{"start":20147.295,"end":20147.375,"text":"好 謝謝委員"},{"start":20172.202,"end":20176.586,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長 接續我們請黃建豪委員質詢好 謝謝主席 主席我們先請這個教育部人事處處長"},{"start":20194.76,"end":20197.743,"text":"行政院人事行政總處、中國國安處處長、考試院保訓中規處處長、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會保障處處長請教育部處長"},{"start":20218.45,"end":20246.506,"text":"處長好處長在這個質詢開始為什麼先找你們是因為在這個勞動部的霸凌事件成為新聞事件之前我想媒體有報導過這個你們教育部所屬的海科館館長也是霸凌員工也有錄音檔那也確實他也講說自己是求好心切跟我們今天的這個勞動部本身這個案子一樣大家都是求好心切啊求好心切但是他一樣對員工產生是霸凌那這件事情之前立法院也有來質詢過"},{"start":20247.526,"end":20268.536,"text":"那我想問一下到底以這個案子為例現在你們處理進度到哪裡跟委員報告從媒體在10月23號揭露以後我們在隔天就立刻請管方就相關的媒體先跟我們做說明然後說明了之後我們在10月30號就有到海科管區做實地的訪視就媒體所揭露的相關事項做進一步的瞭解"},{"start":20269.516,"end":20292.902,"text":"那目前我們這個相關的了解的情形還在整理中我們會再召開相關的會議邀請相關的委員還有專家學者來共同來討論我想這就是教育部大家要看到啦今天我不是針對你我想說這你可能也不是真的主管你只能來代表來發言但是像勞動部這事情發生之後就是因為這幾天大家非常關注所以這個分署長他現在這個請假被調職了"},{"start":20293.962,"end":20295.904,"text":"你們的確有一個這樣子的流程處理表那裡面呢"},{"start":20318.971,"end":20347.88,"text":"每一件事情的救濟程序發生時間到調查到處理基本上都是要找自己的主管來處理嘛那你提到說如果涉機關首長像如果是涉案的話要向上級機關提出申訴這個是你們的處理流程那這個是不是指導而已他沒有什麼強制約束力因為裡面也提到說如果當事人只有口頭告知沒有提出申訴的話建議機關要幫這個當事人提起申訴也是建議而已是不是這樣子"},{"start":20349.244,"end":20377.092,"text":"原則上這個我們也都有要求各機關雖然他是一個指導的一個性質但我們也是有要求各機關要落實來處理那就回到剛剛其他委員提到了那這個東西是不是應該把它法制化因為你現在變指引而已啊所以剛剛提到了像比如說今天是因為勞動部是爐主啊所以他的這個分數獎被掉了那教育部就沒事啊這個館長他持續在當他館長啊那這個制度化怎麼產生呢沒有辦法處理耶那再來繼續"},{"start":20378.615,"end":20391.004,"text":"我剛好手上因為時間比較少我手上有一個陳情案一個地方基層的中央單位10月6號的時候當事人受到員工丟紙箱恐嚇並咆哮"},{"start":20395.385,"end":20417.868,"text":"在這個10月7號的時候單位主管確認有此事那一直都沒有處理10月24號的時候這個陳慶仁把這個投訴信函寄到主管的信箱24號寄到之後30號應該都沒有收到這回應從事發到30號已經過三週了都沒有收到回應所以家屬在致電在網上呈報就如同你們的指引一樣往往上向機關首長提出申訴"},{"start":20419.029,"end":20447.705,"text":"結果才發現這個信箱從來都沒有被打開過所以才發現原來這幾天的申訴都沒有意義那終於10月30號打電話去說我有這個陳情案之後11月1號單位主管才開始處理那當然最後處理說也是把那個人調職調到隔壁單位而已所以他們還是遇到我待會一樣會把這個相關案件提供給相關單位給職業單位但是今天為什麼先請整治行政總處跟保訓處還有考試院先上來我要問的是說像這種事情"},{"start":20448.578,"end":20463.153,"text":"他投訴無門了那這怎麼辦如果今天我是一個基層公務人員我投訴我的主管對我實施霸凌結果主管不處理我往上呈報他沒有打那通電話去講說你有沒有收到我的信"},{"start":20464.385,"end":20491.878,"text":"他從頭到尾都沒有開那個信箱那我想問一下這到底要怎麼處理啊你們要怎麼處理你們要怎麼保障公務員因為你們在你們的報告裡面也寫到說有很多的法令你們可以提供申訴管道你們是這個準司法機關等等的可以來提供申訴的救濟那到底在實務上就算不管是以今天我今天收到的陳情案來講也好還是今天勞動部發分數長發生的事情也好還是之前海科管的事情也好那表示整個公務人員的申訴霸凌機制是無效的吧"},{"start":20493.581,"end":20497.219,"text":"三位你要怎麼做成這個怎麼解決這樣的問題"},{"start":20498.818,"end":20525.093,"text":"因為各機關其實他都會有他的一個申訴管道如果說這個同仁他在服務機關有這樣的情形那他可以跟服務機關來提出申訴我知道提出啦沒有用啊上級機關其實機關主管首長或者上級機關其實他對於這些相關的事項也可以透過指揮監督的方式來就事實的部分來去做瞭解進一步處理"},{"start":20527.515,"end":20551.63,"text":"我具體再問一次好了就以這個我手上收到的陳情案例為例就好今天他找到主管沒有用的時候就像之前找勞動部他們這個投訴沒有用之後那他到底怎麼辦有人是行政總處有這個流程保訓處也說自己是這個可以處理考試院也說可以處理那到底一個基層公務人遇到"},{"start":20558.072,"end":20580.851,"text":"我想過去性騷擾防治是走了這麼多年現在才有一個製作化那這個霸凌的問題現在變成只是指導原則而已嘛那我今天請大家來你們都來到這邊寫了這麼多報告那我想問啊如果今天以這個犧牲公務人員今天遇到這個事情就好了那他到底要找誰他主管都不處理他怎麼辦呢找明代嗎每次都只能找明代嗎明代那麼多人可以找"},{"start":20582.285,"end":20595.79,"text":"跟委員報告就是說跟機關提出申訴之後機關依照規定要在30天內要給他做一個處理那如果疫情沒有的話他可以直接跟保訓會提出再申訴是這樣子"},{"start":20598.439,"end":20623.977,"text":"好今天時間有限了但是我要希望說我們的人事行政總處也好考試院也好或是公務人員這個保障培訓委員會也好到底這個主管機關如果霸凌事件產生之後你們的最終救濟管道除了單位主管當然很顯然在這個我剛提出的幾個事件來講他是失效的那到底要誰來處理這是誰能夠提出報告出來是人事行政總處呢還是考試院還是你們各自為政"},{"start":20630.307,"end":20645.629,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在公務人員保障法其實還有安慰辦法他都有相關的規定那另外就是說如果是屬於人民陳情案件的話在人民陳情案件的處理上面他在相關規定不是人民陳情就是公務員陳情"},{"start":20646.957,"end":20650.178,"text":"這邊講人民其實也包括公務人員因為他跟機關提出陳情這個機關依規定你就是要去做處理"},{"start":20667.486,"end":20692.083,"text":"那如果對於機關的處理或者回復有不符的話那當然他這個如果是屬於管理措施剛剛陳儒考試院代表所提的如果他對這個管理措施他認為機關處理不符的話他可以有保障法的救濟在保訓會那邊也有相關的救濟規定所以最後的救濟是在保訓會是不是公務人員好 謝謝"},{"start":20694.904,"end":20697.126,"text":"謝謝,謝謝黃委員。接下來我們請齊巧欣委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們有請何部長。"},{"start":20720.073,"end":20745.233,"text":"部長我今天看了一整天的質詢我覺得非常的傻眼喔你們到現在還在說這件事情是平庸的邪惡但是你們今天呢說這份所謂的檢討報告叫做噁心利邪對方只是利益良善這等同於你們到現在還在包屁還在輕描淡寫甚至說這不算情節最重大我要告訴你你們這樣子才叫做平庸的邪惡"},{"start":20746.514,"end":20764.172,"text":"再來逼死人的是分署長開記者會的時候道歉的是你跟次長是怎樣分署長是比你們還要大尾嗎今天專案報告我們談霸凌的事情他還是請假要躲到22號那平常他跟員工大小聲的時候怎麼就這麼囂張部長你是不是說謝以榮今天沒有出來是因為他心情不好"},{"start":20772.509,"end":20790.998,"text":"我沒有這個意思但你是不是說他是因為心情不好所以他沒有來我不是這個意思那你是什麼意思他應該要出來可是我不知道他為什麼沒有出來他應該要出來但你不知道為什麼要出來所以你現在你很氣你也很氣嗎他不應該啦他不應該所以你有沒有叫他出來"},{"start":20794.983,"end":20814.948,"text":"委員你是指哪一天我說現在啊就這兩天啊記者會還有今天啊這兩天啊事情爆發之後你們開了記者會我沒有看過記者會是當事逼死人的人沒有出來你一個部長一個次長在那邊鞠躬道歉為什麼他人不在為什麼今天他人也不在為什麼要拖到22號才要出來你有沒有叫他出來嘛"},{"start":20824.314,"end":20833.791,"text":"委員因為因為什麼我想因為調查報告裡面我們的心理諮商室的專家是覺得他的精神狀態是有點"},{"start":20835.993,"end":20852.431,"text":"因為他精神狀態不宜那我問你喔你今天質詢你就哭那被那些霸凌這麼久的、輕生的他心情好嗎?他能哭嗎?這個謝宜蓉現在說精神不好那那些被霸凌致死的人他們心情好嗎?他們能哭嗎?"},{"start":20854.656,"end":20881.413,"text":"一條生命就這樣走了他能哭嗎他哭過多少次了所以他才選擇這樣的方式然後你今天告訴我因為覺得評估他精神上可能不是很好就不知道躲到牛年馬月就等著掉職然後你們給我一個八頁的報告就這樣所以你們這些人根本沒有檢討就是麻木不仁我寫你們寫的八頁報告你知道有多矛盾嗎我一個一個唸給你聽你們一開始就先說霸凌不是主因"},{"start":20882.233,"end":20907.185,"text":"然後呢你們再繼續講你們說呢這個所謂的說明明他就講過數位小組同仁曾經主動說要協助那他為了避免連累同仁所以沒有提出加班申請那他的主管呢他的主管知不知道他有加班如果主管知道這個人每天都加班很辛苦了為什麼沒有幫他主動說我要幫他寫加班費"},{"start":20909.642,"end":20918.145,"text":"沒有申請你們就當沒有這回事了嗎這是一個主管該做的事嗎我自己的助理他沒有跟我申請加班我看到他在加班還是會給他加班費啊部長是什麼"},{"start":20925.293,"end":20953.868,"text":"是什麼嘛?他當然就是完全做錯的事情而且非常不應該非常不應該你們永遠是這句話但是你們要說這不算是霸凌委員他應該要受到應得的懲罰是那他算不算霸凌嘛你們報告裡面就說這不是算霸凌我就請問我們的報告有說他是霸凌他是霸凌他是啊他霸凌所以這個員工你們也認定他是因為受到這個分署長霸凌而致死這是主要的原因是嗎?"},{"start":20956.107,"end":20980.076,"text":"委員我們的報告有承認他就是霸凌我剛剛問的問題是這個人他是因為長時間的受到了這名分署長的霸凌而選擇親身的你們報告裡面並沒有做這樣子的解釋跟說明沒有歸因我現在問你是不是如此是不是我剛剛說的那樣的陳述是你們調查報告我想一定有受到他霸凌的影響只是影響再來我們要再講一下"},{"start":20984.318,"end":21013.106,"text":"你們這裡在後面第三頁你寫說問卷回饋當中無從得知關心人甲是否向主管反利人應不足問題是前面資訊小組的其他人就說願意協助他代表很多人都知道這件事啊然後你們說雖有工作時程要求要加重其壓力但又無法證明長官有過度要求之情形這不是完全就是矛盾嗎你們的報告本身就是矛盾啊"},{"start":21014.583,"end":21028.238,"text":"還要求同仁不要外傳此事我要講一下給大家聽一下那個錄音這件事情事發之後如果他有一絲一毫的覺得自己應該要檢討我覺得今天大家不會這麼憤怒"},{"start":21030.041,"end":21045.578,"text":"這件事情爆發出來之後他找了他找了他其他的同仁來他說什麼我不允許大家在外面給我說嘴什麼職場霸凌然後他說什麼你知道他說什麼嗎他問大家做得到嗎部長如果我今天這樣問你"},{"start":21050.212,"end":21061.348,"text":"這個人我問你部長你要下台大家做得到嗎這個人他要停職大家做得到嗎然後你要回答什麼他說要大家回答做得到"},{"start":21062.281,"end":21089.029,"text":"然後呢 坐在這第一次太小聲了大家做得到嗎做得到這是什麼直銷大會啊事情已經發生了人已經死了這個分署長還在那邊給我開直銷大會大家做得到嗎做得到選舉是不是啊這不是說話大聲而已你們把他裡面寫成說話大聲抱歉這不是說話大聲而已事情發生以後他還把所有人找過來說你們不准對外說這是職場霸凌"},{"start":21090.329,"end":21104.78,"text":"這什麼樣的人啊你們這是一個什麼樣的部會啊最後我要講什麼如要求上班時間內以外的跑步活動可不可以最後說明一下你們所調查所謂的跑步活動是什麼跑步活動是怎麼跑的"},{"start":21106.516,"end":21108.777,"text":"我問的是他跑步的行為是怎麼樣的行為怎麼樣的行為你說給我聽是什麼樣的跑步行為"},{"start":21134.175,"end":21152.071,"text":"跟委員報告我們在訪談那個有跟跟他們的同仁有做過訪談然後也有立名信那這個訪談是講到這個跑步是在那個上班時間他是為了要維護同仁的健康所以他有這樣平常這樣"},{"start":21153.993,"end":21154.033,"text":"所以"},{"start":21166.522,"end":21187.787,"text":"所以他的行為已經脫離已經不正常啦脫離現實啦脫離現實好我最後再問一下部長我覺得你剛剛呢你還沒有完全了解狀況你一直告訴我們這報告呕心瀝血我只是提出一個所謂的上班時間以內工作跑步活動是什麼樣的狀況你要別人幫你打"},{"start":21189.427,"end":21216.212,"text":"這個本來就是本來就是怎麼樣是人事處他們去做反調那你不用了解嗎你是部長發生了這麼大一件事情我們今天從早上質詢到現在我問你他到底犯錯犯在哪裡具體而言你要讓別人幫你回答你自己回答不出來沒有責任嗎這已經不是說那是前朝的事情了這是現在你們調查報告就是寫得非常糟糕的問題最後我問一個問題北分署的離退人數我們看一下powerpoint"},{"start":21217.592,"end":21219.554,"text":"我請署長打好嗎?可以"},{"start":21241.527,"end":21242.228,"text":"112年北溫署離隊36人,113年北溫署離隊45人好,111年了"},{"start":21256.084,"end":21256.765,"text":"111年的時候只離18人112年開始30幾個113年變成40幾個為什麼會直線往上飆升"},{"start":21274.768,"end":21294.955,"text":"所以這不是一兩天的事情是很多人不斷的在離職啊所以你們從110年到112年從18個人變36個人的時候你們就應該要注意到這件事情了不是等人死了才說哎呀不好意思趕快做一個調查報告所以我最後問部長部長你會因為這件事情下台嗎我會我會負我該負的責任"},{"start":21302.97,"end":21303.871,"text":"我會負符合社會期待的責任"},{"start":21331.713,"end":21333.214,"text":"謝謝許委員、謝謝部長。繼續我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。謝謝主席。有請部長。部長好。"},{"start":21357.263,"end":21382.239,"text":"辛苦了哈對但是我們還是一樣就是繼續來去問你因為我們看到報告就是剛才我們習委員有問報告裡面說無法證明同人是親身與霸凌相關所以我們真的是這個剛才你也沒有明確的說他你一直在說他是有霸凌的行為但是"},{"start":21383.139,"end":21390.806,"text":"這個親身跟他無關感覺你沒有辦法是明確再去講這一塊但是我們覺得你很矛盾但是現在不只針對個案我們要求的要求的你要如何處理這個受害者如何處理對他比較公平還有我們對我們的家屬要如何交代還有我們全國的勞工"},{"start":21411.224,"end":21419.519,"text":"都在權力都在你的手上所以現在我們不是針對個案對面所有的同仁"},{"start":21420.56,"end":21446.408,"text":"都心驚驚心慌慌對不對因為你現在這樣的署長你部長你都一直在回答都沒有明確也沒有解決的方案所以我們希望你要表態你如何加嚴管理你有什麼策略或者未來你怎麼樣去加嚴才不會大家問你有沒有要負責下台"},{"start":21447.088,"end":21457.523,"text":"你要一從發生到現在你一定要有一個作為吧對不對才讓我們全國的大眾認同說你真的去處理有嗎我會做"},{"start":21463.871,"end":21466.132,"text":"你會做,你會做不是用講的啊用講的講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講講"},{"start":21493.108,"end":21517.815,"text":"這個部分要求還有第二個我們分署內的工作量就是超過大家的負荷所以大家就是很多人的離職剛才有都問了這個部分我們就不多來去講但是臺電經理推打小職員還有女警留場等的連接發生這些也是跟勞動部有關是不是"},{"start":21520.716,"end":21542.173,"text":"這樣子的話是否說我們在反映就是勞動部缺雜有效的防範機制也是為了掩蓋這個真相所以我們覺得你用設立一個匿名的調查但是暴徵說裡面還要用私人的信箱這樣子叫匿名嗎?"},{"start":21543.823,"end":21560.97,"text":"所以變成是你要跟大家說要有調查所以大家有沒有被霸凌或有其他的調查你要去解決這個問題你要調查但叫大家匿名又叫大家寫私人的信箱這樣叫做匿名問卷嗎這樣子你覺得是說誰敢去寫這樣子的一個問卷"},{"start":21572.125,"end":21575.006,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望我們要部長要做就要做實的啦不要被人騙這樣啦對大家就不好啦因為大家你要對內對外都要去真正的要有實作才對我們才覺得我們勞動部是真的是我們勞工的信任還有把關"},{"start":21597.598,"end":21612.77,"text":"還有第二個給我一分鐘的時間因為我想要問部長我們目前的移工在臺灣除了解決切工以外因為現在我們移工來臺灣他們解決的什麼行業的切工最多什麼行業移工來臺灣製造業還有呢"},{"start":21630.425,"end":21637.328,"text":"所以說為什麼說解決台灣的缺工?還為什麼我們台灣還有那麼多人失業呢?對不對?如果你台灣有那麼多人失業,你為什麼還要引進那麼多移工呢?所以移工進來是害了台灣還是幫助了台灣?"},{"start":21650.896,"end":21655.099,"text":"委員移工進來當然是對台灣有幫助的對啊 所以說我要跟你說跟全國說移工進來是對台灣有幫助的但是呢你覺得他對台灣有幫助但是你覺得他的生活還有他的工作環境還有居住環境你覺得合理嗎合法嗎"},{"start":21673.758,"end":21685.103,"text":"這是應該要確實移工的生活環境本來就是我們一直致力在改善的致力改善要有確定的改善我們移工每個要進來中介費還有每個服務費他們都在繳我們中小企業每一個月都要繳給我們勞動部的就業安定基金所以呢他們雙方都有繳服務分跟保護費啦但是我們勞動部給他們這樣子的工作環境"},{"start":21703.59,"end":21709.796,"text":"所以他們要不要逃跑要不要離開這個工作崗位如果是你留在這邊工作你要離開嗎所以這個就是我們勞動部不只沒辦法解決我們在地我們的國民的勞工還沒辦法解決外籍勞工所以兩個勞工的"},{"start":21723.328,"end":21733.217,"text":"在我們台灣都需要你多多關心多多去協助不是用說改善或者是討論這個原因對我們來說都是敷衍而已啦希望你要提出真正的規劃讓我們看到你的誠意也真的解決問題所以我們希望是你要解決問題"},{"start":21745.887,"end":21773.006,"text":"用靠的解決不了但是我們要用真正的處理方式因為現在已經發生還沒有發生還沒有新聞知道是大家不知道發生但是你早就知道發生了所以問題解決你應該早就要有策略了不是到我們委員會問你的時候一問三不知沒有任何的作業沒有任何的規劃這個是我們看到的就是對你的失望"},{"start":21774.766,"end":21785.93,"text":"希望你就是這兩個要提出具體的規劃要給我們謝謝謝謝麥委員、謝謝部長接續我們請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席主席我4分鐘1分鐘問勞動部3分鐘問警政署、考試院先請勞動部"},{"start":21804.321,"end":21831.293,"text":"是 謝謝部長好 您辛苦了 針對今天安排的專報 職場霸凌事件我從早上聽到現在 不論是質詢 或者是詢答的內容 或者是情緒看起來都大同小異 那部長我只想問 我就想問"},{"start":21833.534,"end":21859.841,"text":"針對這個事件部長您的態度到底如何因為我們最想知道的是你要如何懲處啊您簡單回答是謝謝委員我想我已經決定懲處的態度齁那我想針對謝怡榮分署長我會對他記兩大過予以停止兩大過予以停止對然後我想"},{"start":21862.045,"end":21862.686,"text":"接下來我想要問警政署跟考試院"},{"start":21891.576,"end":21917.81,"text":"我想要問關於警察人力其實我過去質詢過很多次我們就看這10年其實不管如何這10年來全國警察的人數總計其實是一直逐年增加但是我們原住民的警察人員的人數是逐年的下降那麼現在我們都在講文化敏感度文化敏感度"},{"start":21918.63,"end":21938.856,"text":"做長照也一樣其實在地的教師、醫事人力包括警察其實我們都非常的在乎所謂的文化敏感度那麼在我們的原鄉地區現在還不僅僅是警力過少現在在原鄉很不容易看到原住民級的警察了"},{"start":21939.955,"end":21956.084,"text":"所以現在我們地大人稀加上現在的詐騙這麼猖獗槍支毒品打架姿勢等等等其實我們真的很需要所謂的原住民級的警察人力來服務原鄉"},{"start":21957.105,"end":21982.091,"text":"偏偏2021年憲法法庭大法官釋智棣提到不能警察過牢所以警政署在警力不足的狀況下你們想到的因應的措施就是聯合服刑引起原鄉很大的恐慌為什麼因為地大人稀馬夜間突然之間看到派出所沒有燈光了以為派出所要被裁撤了"},{"start":21982.731,"end":22011.375,"text":"所以當時我也發文給你們警政署我提到說除了短期去調撥人力之外長期應該要提高我們警專、警大、原民學生的比例而且我要求能夠做一個外軌增加原住民行政警察很好其實呢我看到這幾年確實不論警大或者警專確實我們的原民生的比率是逐年在增加另外"},{"start":22011.975,"end":22037.403,"text":"憲法法庭也提到關於我們去綁身高這件事情是不對的所以內政部長也已經說了未來警消考試會取消身高限制這對原住民是福音啊好那我要講的是外鬼很好其實我質詢之後你們曾經在111年你們有行文給考選部說同意在一般警察特考要徵涉原住民刑責類別"},{"start":22039.224,"end":22051.631,"text":"我也很高興考選部呢終於也回文但是他們也沒反對他們說什麼呢要在原名特考四等考試來增設行政警察人員類科你們都沒有反對但是你們講的不一樣那考選部是說因為"},{"start":22058.254,"end":22076.258,"text":"按照新增類科處理要點不能在同一個考試中新增同樣職務的類科因為他們覺得說行政警察或原住民行政警察其實是同樣的職系好那我覺得警政署你們也很為難因為你們說你們的警察人員人事條例的施行細則提到"},{"start":22079.399,"end":22091.271,"text":"這邊要談的是高考、普考、警察人員考試所以你們覺得應該要從警察特考來增設好,重點我都沒有意見我都沒有意見現在我就想問考試院"},{"start":22093.038,"end":22109.137,"text":"你們一直都說會尊重用人機關就是警政署那你們都沒有關係你是不是可以就你的意見什麼叫做新增直系要怎麼寫你提供你的修正意見嘛考試院的意見如何"},{"start":22109.701,"end":22110.301,"text":"接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":22145.851,"end":22147.92,"text":"好 主席麻煩請我們何部長"},{"start":22154.957,"end":22177.117,"text":"部長今天整天大家都關心這一次在發生在勞動部分署的這個大齡事件或是同人輕生啊我想先請教一下為什麼我們現在看到好像是擠牙膏式的又說這一個分署長要降級又說他要停職到底你們現在這個懲戒"},{"start":22177.917,"end":22196.545,"text":"是依照外界判斷還是依照你們控管所以才會一段一段的出來是這樣嗎我想應該不是吧剛休息五分鐘是不是您在外面有接到電話沒有所以那是我的決定"},{"start":22198.429,"end":22226.497,"text":"你的態度因為我的考機會也會開會所以這只是我的態度而已我必須讓考機會決定可是我有我的態度這樣子你有你的態度那現在大家也在講是說難道就這樣子就了事了嗎部長的部分勒您自己有沒有政治責任認不認為這一件事情應該要有政務官要來下台負責我有政治責任吶你的政治責任是什麼"},{"start":22227.062,"end":22231.445,"text":"我可以離開啊我可以離開所以你已經有跟院長請辭了嗎你已經有跟院長請辭了嗎因為現在外傳是你跟院長請辭但是現在說是要慰留你啊"},{"start":22246.438,"end":22270.918,"text":"沒有這樣子的東西我根本還沒有跟院長有任何的聯繫沒有聯繫那也沒有來自院長院方的壓力或是院方的關心沒有沒有沒有但是你說你可以離開這就是我做符合社會期待的責任我負起這個責任所以跟委員您報告我可以離開沒有問題"},{"start":22272.139,"end":22289.81,"text":"好所以就是等這段事情因為你說你禮拜五會帶這位這位前分署長一起出面那後續國人也要看你負責的態度你要用怎麼樣的一個情形負責嗎但是本席現在要講來我們先看第一頁簡報這到目前為止的官方網站非常諷刺"},{"start":22298.539,"end":22323.904,"text":"熱誠、創新、感動人盡其材、財盡其用結果讓一位同仁離開再來剛剛在我們勞動部的門牌上面被貼了一個便利貼我是公務員我想好好活著部長你看到這樣子的一個便利貼有什麼感想對不起對不起誰"},{"start":22327.68,"end":22356.742,"text":"當然對不起我們這廣大的機關裡面所有的公務員廣大機關的公務員莫名的壓力被籠罩著然後應該是勞工朋友的保護傘勞工朋友的守護者的勞動部竟然發生了這樣霸凌的事件竟然發生了同仁離開的事件然後被人家寫說我是公務員我想好好活著什麼時候我們中華民國公務同仁那麼卑微到"},{"start":22357.642,"end":22365.167,"text":"我做一份工作到最後我居然是說我要拜託勞動部拜託長官讓我好好活著部長"},{"start":22370.806,"end":22395.341,"text":"還是要細究一下這個事件因為本時也覺得很遺憾我們在國會改革完之後我們沒有辦法有這個調查小組所以很多事情我們是看你們的報告出來很多的疑點或說很多的一個案件的狀況我們還是覺得說物理看花所以幾個部分我來直接就教你來請下一頁這個是在網路上有想有匿名的"},{"start":22396.699,"end":22424.42,"text":"報料但是這一個賬號也被很多人講到他講的應該就是我們同一個單位的工作同仁他其中特別講到11月1號禮拜五我們這一位親身離開公務員他被長官推薦、被長官大罵長官要求11月4號禮拜一務必交件我想請教一下我們的調查小組有沒有查出來這個長官是誰這件事情屬不屬實"},{"start":22426.206,"end":22428.69,"text":"他會不會就是壓垮最後一根稻草我們的調查小組有去調查然後勒"},{"start":22434.512,"end":22458.097,"text":"這長官是誰根據我掌握的資料11月1號禮拜五跟他開會的是副分署長是副分署長要求他11月4號要交接所以這個長官是副分署長我不知道這我沒有這我那有沒有大罵有沒有被推薦有沒有大罵這件事件我們沒有掌這個沒有調查沒有得出有沒有大罵的問題部長怎麼會沒有得出有沒有大罵的問題"},{"start":22462.874,"end":22487.079,"text":"這個才可能會是關鍵我們今天不管是分署長不管是副分署長好即便你們講是說是副分署長他有沒有可能會是讓這個同仁親身最後的一個狀況在詢問副分署長的時候他有沒有承認他11月1號對當事人大罵嗎他有這樣的行為嗎他沒有講啊可是當天跟他開會的就是他那位長官就是他"},{"start":22490.539,"end":22511.14,"text":"當天跟這一位同仁開會的11月1號開會好那再來11月3號而且謝芬署長當天11月1號是請假的我們都知道他請假但不能是說他請假就變成說他沒有責任11月3號晚上家人要到辦公室找這一位同仁被保全阻擋沒有辦法進辦公室有沒有這個情況"},{"start":22513.277,"end":22514.157,"text":"我再確認一下就是大概50幾分的時候"},{"start":22543.768,"end":22565.441,"text":"就是11月4號嘛等於是禮拜天已經過到禮拜一也許家人已經聯絡不上他想要來了解因為知道說這一個同仁很盡責的到辦公室加班結果到了現場一樓還被保全阻擋沒有辦法進辦公室那他沒有表達他沒有在現場表達他是他的家人"},{"start":22566.845,"end":22581.775,"text":"我相信應該有那如果說保全不讓他上去可能因為整個機關的保全或說安危那保全有沒有最基本的合理的懷疑至少說好你在這邊看一下你沒有辦法進去但我幫你去辦公室看看委員那不是勞動部的保全那是中央聯合辦公大樓他們集體請的保全當然我們勞動部有疏失就是說"},{"start":22595.94,"end":22616.686,"text":"這個保全被阻擋那我們沒有及時去跟家屬來聯繫因為當時他沒有通報他們也沒有通報我們好來來來一個一個釐清啊你現在不要不要覺得說你們很委屈啊說實在發生在勞動部我只是請教一下這一個親生如果說依照現在檢察官判斷的話他什麼時候親生"},{"start":22622.525,"end":22635.639,"text":"家人12禮拜天的晚上禮拜一的清晨來的時候會不會有可能是可以救得到他的如果說讓他看到家人會不會他可能就不會走上這一條不歸路"},{"start":22639.414,"end":22664.392,"text":"因為是早上11月4號早上7點半有同仁上班的時候才發覺說他已經離開了嘛那換言之你們的記錄到現在你們還講不清楚也不知道檢察官到底是確認說他什麼時候離開是不是我們辦公室裡面有沒有相關的錄影錄影設備也沒有有還是沒有辦公區有沒有相關錄影設備"},{"start":22669.335,"end":22675.44,"text":"所以換言之你們也沒有辦法掌握到底裡面的情況所以"},{"start":22677.806,"end":22699.238,"text":"這會不會又是一個可能可以挽回他但到最後沒有辦法的原因的一個機會點其實這件事情我們要講的是說這個同仁有沒有發出求救訊號我覺得有欸從今年的2月就有上百封的陳情書不管說現在講是說有給部長有給相關單位有給民意代表"},{"start":22701.681,"end":22727.385,"text":"那結果到11月1號又被大罵他可能變成是壓垮最後一根稻草結果11月3號的晚上家人想要去找他又沒有不得其門而入所以11月4號就有憾事發生來再來我時間真的有限但是我覺得這個事情不能這樣子私了請教有沒有這件事情沒有沒有有沒有掉電梯裡面的影像攝影像沒有來下一張"},{"start":22731.581,"end":22751.756,"text":"他講是說11月4號早上高層指示貨梯不能用所以不能用單架運送死者的遺體那後來電梯不夠大所以只能用單架把它整理上來變成是坐姿的情況離開而且還不准上令蓋上白布"},{"start":22752.301,"end":22775.327,"text":"沒有這樣子的事部長說沒有來有沒有影像有沒有去看當天的電梯的影像不是委員有沒有去看當天的電梯影像沒有所謂高層下令沒有有沒有去看當天的電梯影像不是當天的電梯影像交出來不是因為現在很多的同仁都講是說那天被要求不能蓋上白布"},{"start":22776.485,"end":22781.566,"text":"有提醒有走廊的影像能不能調出當天走廊的影像為什麼沒有調到也不見了"},{"start":22811.89,"end":22824.682,"text":"好來來來來部長給你們那麼兩三個禮拜時間的調查小組去掉了結果你剛剛跟我講沒有先撇清沒有然後來現在告訴我們說其實根本還沒有看到那時候影像那你有什麼底氣說沒有"},{"start":22826.889,"end":22827.709,"text":"來最後抱歉委員"},{"start":22855.595,"end":22878.322,"text":"我先講啦你最後你們今天的報告是直接督導的北分署副分署長跟秘書室主任因為他直接督導所以他一併送考記會可是你們之前怎麼寫來下一頁謝分署長管理雖非同仁離開的直接原因你們直接開宗明義幫謝分署長開脫啊然後現在你們把這個鍋甩給誰來下一頁"},{"start":22881.53,"end":22904.449,"text":"反而是甩軌直接督導資訊小組的北分署副分署長跟秘書室主任你這樣寫的狀況以我對你們公務機關的瞭解到最後這鍋是副分署長跟秘書室主任要背啊因為他是直接督導啊當然你剛剛講是說如果當天11月1號破口大罵的是副分署長的話我也認為他有非常嚴重的責任"},{"start":22906.084,"end":22906.104,"text":"委員"},{"start":22937.89,"end":22962.175,"text":"還有其他委員要詢問但是我剛問的這些問題都是你這一此時此刻你們還回答不清的都是你們的調查報告裡面沒有寫清楚的都是我們看完調查報告之後我們還有產生更多懷疑的禮拜五你們還會再出面我希望禮拜五的時候你們可以把我剛剛講的這些疑點全部都交代清楚不要再有任何遮掩"},{"start":22962.816,"end":22984.658,"text":"我們其實只有10天的時間在做這個調查報告這是非常非常非常急迫當然當然委員你沒有辦法自圓其說這代表就是說你的時間像講出來的調查報告就是沒有辦法讓悠悠之口服眾這才是現在的問題"},{"start":22988.516,"end":22991.778,"text":"好 謝謝洪委員 謝謝部長 接續我們請李燕秀委員質詢部長喝口水來 我繼續請部長部長"},{"start":23017.281,"end":23040.592,"text":"二、三十年前你是站在街頭幫勞工爭取權益的憤青今天發生這個事情你身為一千兩百萬勞工照顧捍衛勞工權益的大家長五十四萬公教人員都在看你怎麼處理這個事情"},{"start":23042.762,"end":23055.892,"text":"本席今天其實這件事情發生在其他國家勞動部就是應該要下台我覺得我們對你的要求並不為過你剛才講說你只有10天的時間勞動部的同仁陳情這些事情應該不只10天他有很長的時間這幾天今天整天質詢下來我對於勞動部內控的機制"},{"start":23072.428,"end":23081.471,"text":"預警的機制對不對因為他不是只有最近這10天才發生他應該要有一個預警的機制顯然的預警的機制顯然的預警的機制也完全沒有了然後我看到你們勞動部完全是息事寧人的態度從昨天開的記者會開完之後所有國人媒體"},{"start":23100.184,"end":23123.624,"text":"網路全部都炸鍋炸開了看到的是你們草菅人命我順便請一下消防署的同仁一起上來大家的結論都是勞動部變成霸凌的特區勞工的地獄網路大家都留這八個字送給你所以你覺得我請你下台為過嗎?不為過"},{"start":23125.629,"end":23136.14,"text":"因為在其他國家就是如此你想想30年前的你你站在街頭幫勞工爭取錢益你是憤青的時候你怎麼去看這個勞動部部長"},{"start":23138.39,"end":23165.431,"text":"你預警的機制在哪裡你說你10天不夠調查這件事情多少勞動部的同仁寫信在外面陳情你居然都不知道不管他是過去許部長任用的人選分署長這都是你的下屬可見你的管理機制是出了問題好我再請問一下剛才洪孟凱委員問的當天我請了消防署回應我警政署跟消防署回應我當天"},{"start":23168.663,"end":23191.559,"text":"分署要求不能蓋白布並且是用坐輪椅的方式下台這件事情是怎麼回事我請消防署不是在嗎來你回應我副署長來報告委員那天的處置情形是怎麼樣報告委員當天是新北市那個去參與的救護那你知不知道你今天來到這邊你什麼都不知道你來這邊做什麼你不知道嗎當天是什麼狀況"},{"start":23195.885,"end":23207.294,"text":"報告委員當時是那個新北市消防局去執行的分隊去執行的那你是要當時的狀況是怎麼樣嗎報告委員我不清楚那你來這邊做什麼你們今天來這邊做什麼越問越不清楚這就出現國外調查的重要性嘛"},{"start":23215.447,"end":23218.369,"text":"什麼都不知道你們來幹還是警政署可以回應我來誰可以回答報告委員因為這個整個調查小組是由人事處來擔任幕僚那剛才又說沒有影像現在消防署來也不能告訴我答案當天在現場我們既沒有影像消防署那一天"},{"start":23236.141,"end":23264.795,"text":"怎麼把人帶下來的對跟委員報告當天的現場我在這邊跟您報告就是當天的時候我們人事主任把他解下來之後那馬上就詢問他們的他的家屬那他的家屬說要急救要急救所以我們把那個急救人員來的時候你問他家屬說要急救當天還有時間問他家屬要急救要急救所以下去的時候他是帶著氧氣罩"},{"start":23266.727,"end":23268.708,"text":"這整件事情他到底當時有沒有寫報告"},{"start":23296.294,"end":23304.119,"text":"你是指2月的約談嗎?2月20號王安本的約談我們部裡沒有任何記錄啊你說寫報告有沒有約談這件事情我只是聽說"},{"start":23305.563,"end":23334.585,"text":"那還是第二個我認為整件事情在調查過程當中你都是聽說不是委員我有我現在已經要重新調查這個案了我早上有回答王玉敏委員的詢問如果都要發生事形憾事你現在才你才知道我覺得你的預警機制真的有問題好我第三個問題我還要突顯另外一個問題你知道一般的離職率齁大概多少是合理的嗎企業界多少的離職率是合理的嗎"},{"start":23335.706,"end":23347.291,"text":"好我告訴你答案因為我今天我不想這樣別人寫大概兩層是合理的你知道我們北分署扣掉工友跟技工我們的緣合數是132人扣掉所謂工友技工我們有124人你知道我們離職率多少嗎我們有81個人離職這個分署裡面有6乘5的離職率"},{"start":23357.696,"end":23367.466,"text":"這麼高的一個離職率在一個單位裡面這個單位如果發生了什麼事你會不知道我的辦公室同仁如果百分之五、六十都離職代表我這個老闆有問題你什麼都不知道欸北分署原來編制是132人扣掉工有技工駕駛8個人有124個人兩年之內離職率有81個人"},{"start":23384.413,"end":23401.429,"text":"6乘5的離職率這是我要凸顯你的預警機制你的息事寧人你的草菅人命所以部長我不佔別人時間我覺得請你下台只是剛剛好而已不要讓勞動部變成勞工地域特權地區謝謝李委員謝謝部長繼續我們請黃伯昌委員質詢"},{"start":23420.366,"end":23440.78,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長部長好,我想這份調查報告公布到現在,您從早上備詢到現在,我覺得你應該可以很清楚地感受到"},{"start":23441.86,"end":23469.04,"text":"整個社會其實不僅僅是外環委員會這麼多委員來執行整個社會對這份調查報告是憤怒的是有沒有重啟調查的必要我會重啟調查什麼時候重啟調查當然馬上就重啟調查馬上就重啟調查我希望喔重啟調查了以後真的能夠還原事件的真相因為有太多的疑問到現在"},{"start":23471.735,"end":23497.817,"text":"對於被害人對於整個社會都沒有一個清楚的交代因為我看完這份報告了以後我腦海裡面顯現了第一個問題這份報告說這個長官涉及職場霸凌情節重大但是在前面他就說這位不幸往生的同仁他沒有遭受到長官霸凌的情勢"},{"start":23499.417,"end":23526.078,"text":"我看完了這份報告以後我不斷在思考調查小組做出來的調查結果這個分署長有霸凌但是這個往生的人沒有被霸凌所有被霸凌的人沒有人往生剛好是那個往生的人沒有被霸凌部長這個報告這樣的結論您能接受嗎"},{"start":23526.892,"end":23550.254,"text":"委員這個部分我可以跟您解釋好嗎就是其實是報告裡面沒有寫清楚為什麼就是說在謝分署長跟那個離開的同仁之間還隔著兩個主管就是傅分署長所以你的意思是說有其他的主管涉及霸凌嗎也不可能因為這個霸凌的程序是你說得非常的好也不可能這個就是我直接跟你講嘛"},{"start":23551.84,"end":23568.055,"text":"當你們已經認定出來這個分署長有霸凌的事實但大家看到你們認定的結果是這位不幸往生的同仁沒有被霸凌這是一個完全矛盾完全衝突調查報告的結論部長您同意嗎"},{"start":23570.501,"end":23598.622,"text":"公務員報告因為這主要是外部專家他們在基於事實而去做的陳述那他們只就他們眼看到的、聽到的事實做他只說無法證實啦所以嘛所以這邊調查報告社會才會憤怒嘛所以你今天才會在這邊承認有重啟調查的必要嘛是嗎是好來除了不幸往生的事件以外喔"},{"start":23600.492,"end":23612.927,"text":"我其他得到的檢舉我們一樣樣來他有沒有濫用公帑、宴請友人這個部分我瞭解過了應該是指一個今年6月有我們鄭豐處長在現場嗎是鄭豐處長來回答好嗎"},{"start":23617.129,"end":23643.058,"text":"這個案子是東穎公所跟他們一個東永協會在5月份5月20號去拜訪北分署那北分因為這一個協會是北分署呢過去一直在埔島的多元就業的那個協會所以呢那個謝芬組長基於公宜呢那就在當天晚上有宴請花了多少錢總共在餐費部分大概是四萬兩千塊四萬兩千塊是"},{"start":23645.639,"end":23669.456,"text":"從哪一個會計科目向下支出?那個會計科目我可能要再瞭解一個禮拜之內喔?把這件事情的原委寫清楚喔?我們這個會期在審查預算嘛勞動部預算很多啊很有錢啊一個分署長請出去吃飯一頓就吃掉4萬多塊啊"},{"start":23672.113,"end":23673.697,"text":"有沒有在辦公室裡面裝軌道燈導致電費增加?"},{"start":23681.568,"end":23702.202,"text":"這部分因為我們2月份的那一個所謂檢舉的書我們並沒有收到那我們在這個月11號看到那個議員有報導以後我們已經在立案調查了那所以這部分也是在我們調查的項目之內需要多久我們大概兩個禮拜好兩個禮拜來接下來繼續請部長他上任以後"},{"start":23708.372,"end":23718.857,"text":"爛花公堂送禮這件事情有沒有掌握?我們有看到資料你有看到資料嗎?這樣的行為你覺得適不適當?請問鄭鋒處長這個也是在我們調查的範圍一樣兩個禮拜嘛對這都是就是那一份的檢舉書裡面我們通通會調查來!裡面禮物有國會統籌運用統籌運用到哪裡知不知道?"},{"start":23737.947,"end":23764.763,"text":"一樣兩個禮拜調查報告寫清楚這個都是在我們調查範圍內我一樣一樣問嘛我怕你調查報告到時候寫出來跟這份報告一樣嘛避重就輕嘛破綻百出嘛大家為什麼憤怒所以我一點一點跟你們講啊今天沒有答案沒有關係啊我今後兩個禮拜以後的調查報告啊再往下看公帑買的禮盒他自己可以留著喔"},{"start":23769.531,"end":23772.212,"text":"我現在不是在討論事實是在討論規範規範需要調查喔"},{"start":23800.023,"end":23815.333,"text":"他所謂公帑買的禮盒是他所謂送自己人是什麼因為不是啦分署長室自己留著這是你們我鎖是你們回給我的資料嘛他可以自己留著喔可以嗎他那個如果是用公帑買的那就是公務啦"},{"start":23823.223,"end":23825.606,"text":"我當初我跟你講啦我所有所知都調出來了啦送給誰我要他一樣一樣列清楚啦"},{"start":23841.448,"end":23854.454,"text":"這個就是他列不清楚的阿直接講說分署長自己留著阿一樣喔兩個禮拜之內報告所以我們會留寫他的流向到什麼地方去事情還沒有結束阿備用125份現在在哪裡一樣兩個禮拜之內寫清楚是堆在倉庫裡還是拿去隨便亂扒"},{"start":23866.238,"end":23885.364,"text":"東西在哪裡我看我們的勞動部很有錢啊有錢到這個程度啊分署長上來不僅官威很大錢也很會亂花拿公帑找設計師買禮物做自己的公關可以這樣幹喔這是這個分署長才幹的還是這是整個勞動部的文化來請部長"},{"start":23895.747,"end":23914.992,"text":"這絕對不是勞動部的文絕對不是勞動部的文化嘛回去瞭解一下不要再有第二種這種長官出現了更可惡的事情是你知不知道他買禮品的錢從哪裡來的知不知道部長知道嗎請委員那個你們喔"},{"start":23918.959,"end":23937.047,"text":"就是署裡面的同仁啊我已經跟你們所知了你們就要知道我一定會問這個問題就要幫部長準備好要不然部長站在上面也很辛苦他一定不知道嘛他為什麼會不知道因為匪夷所思嘛我為什麼說匪夷所思來"},{"start":23940.236,"end":23940.476,"text":"怎麼核銷的?"},{"start":23970.902,"end":23998.553,"text":"可以嗎?我想應該是不行你覺得應該不行嗎?後面還有更誇張的社群媒體標案可以拿社群媒體標案的錢因為太多啦!花不完啦!多到花不完還雲芝過來啊!買禮物啊!部長你覺得這個適合嗎?我想應該也是不適合也是不適合嘛更誇張的是促進銀髮就業青年就業專案也可以拿來送禮"},{"start":24000.302,"end":24014.581,"text":"我相信啊!所有的立法委員在審預算的時候都不知道啊!勞動部跟立法院要預算是要促進營法就業、要青年就業計畫結果搞了半天拿來送禮喔!錢可以這樣花嗎?請教部長!"},{"start":24018.615,"end":24019.836,"text":"要透過送旅盒來做廣宣喔"},{"start":24034.366,"end":24037.106,"text":"來,我們再往下看就業保險基金可以拿來送禮嗎?救保基金是拿來送禮的嗎?"},{"start":24069.802,"end":24094.058,"text":"這個就是救保基金裡面的預算了113年來送端午節43萬我再往下看就業安定基金可以拿來送禮嗎?一樣中秋節38萬我看完了以後啊那個請一下部長好嗎?請一下部長這個會期啊"},{"start":24097.301,"end":24118.713,"text":"要處理預算當我們看到錢這樣花的時候我相信所有的立法委員心裡在問一個問題我們當初通過這個預算的時候是要給這位分署長拿來買禮物做關係嗎我相信沒有立委會同意"},{"start":24120.413,"end":24135.3,"text":"這些內容是不是可以承諾一併兩個禮拜之內的調查報告要寫清楚可以嗎?該移送檢調的就移送檢調這已經不是只有單純失職的問題了啦該移送檢調的移送檢調希望下一次兩個禮拜兩個禮拜以後出來的報告能夠回應社會這些問題"},{"start":24149.158,"end":24166.655,"text":"部長可以嗎?好好謝謝黃委員黃國昌委員要求的兩個禮拜報告請要給黨團還有給本委員會要給報告那結束我們請葉元之委員質詢麻煩請勞動部長謝謝"},{"start":24184.262,"end":24205.707,"text":"部長昨天你開記者會告訴大家說這個謝宜龍到底要怎麼處理要送考機會來斷定嘛你不能夠直接停職免職嘛但是今天你說你要推他兩大過停職之後剛剛已經有消息傳出來說他要辭職了然後要去美國陪小孩請問有這件事嗎有這件事嗎我剛剛才看到你剛剛才看到所以他請辭是跟誰請辭"},{"start":24213.823,"end":24241.878,"text":"是跟誰請示?組長知道這個事嗎?還沒有這個消息所以並沒有收到辭呈我想要問部長其實這個事件大家社會很震驚很關心也很痛心大家其實除了看謝宜榮他的所作所為之外也在看勞動部第一時間出於這個事情的態度我感覺昨天勞動部第一時間就是想要息事寧人啊"},{"start":24242.898,"end":24243.218,"text":"我想透過誠誠的傳達"},{"start":24261.345,"end":24283.05,"text":"有沒有關係嗎?只有直接關係?你現在又覺得有直接關係了?好第二個就是有所以昨天說沒有直接關係今天又說有直接關係部長你昨天說你們的調查報告是偶心力血之作今天你說要重啟調查我就問請問一下如果是偶心力血之作為什麼今天又要重啟調查?為什麼?"},{"start":24284.94,"end":24308.343,"text":"因為委員會要求是委員會要求還是你也覺得那個報告不是偶心力血之作我也同意你也同意那為什麼昨天第一時間你說是偶心力血之作為什麼你是自己這樣認為還是你受到調查委員甚至於幾位次長的蒙蔽因為那真的是外部專家花了很多時間那如果是這樣子的話為什麼你要重啟調查那就尊重啊"},{"start":24310.726,"end":24335.221,"text":"因為委員會要求我必須尊重委員會所以部長你還是認為那個是偶心力血之作所以調查出來可能也是差不多是這個意思?絕對不是所以你也覺得不是偶心力血之作再來我想請教一下目的良善找到很多委員問你目的良善這幾個字是因為專家基於平衡用出來用語這是你講的嘛對不對?對啦"},{"start":24338.715,"end":24359.452,"text":"是目的良善你們說為什麼要寫目的良善這四個字是因為專家基於平衡是委員所謂基於平衡是指說當然在專業的他們的論述他們的陳述上面我非常覺得奇怪的是為什麼要這種事情要基於平衡啊調查報告就是把事實呈現嘛"},{"start":24360.313,"end":24376.543,"text":"根本要基於平衡這個平衡就是事實也是事實也是基於事實那你就基於事實嘛是啊所以目的良善就是你到現在還認為說這個分署長他的霸凌行為是基於事實的目的良善是這個意思嗎那你同意嗎你同意嗎那是外部專家的認知我得尊重你尊重那你同意嗎"},{"start":24384.005,"end":24411.665,"text":"你同意嗎當然我沒有我也不認同這樣子你不認同嘛因為這事情害你們勞動被罵爆了嘛網友都說目的良善這四個字為所有企業重新的定義嘛只要目的良善就可以大聲講話就可以隨便罵人就不叫霸凌啊再來昨天你說必須要通過考機會才能夠對他作出處分你沒有直接權利為什麼今天你又有權利了為什麼"},{"start":24412.861,"end":24439.335,"text":"我還是一樣要開考機會處理阿那你怎麼可以直接講說就要給他停職勒這是我的態度你的態度所以你的態度有可能跟考機會不一樣是不是一樣阿一樣應該是會一樣的應該是會一樣就代表你就可以那就是你就可以決定了嘛我講那麼多其實那還是必須尊重考機會的程序所以有可能不一樣有可能不一樣不會不一樣不會不一樣就是你就可以決那你就可以決定了嘛"},{"start":24439.975,"end":24450.759,"text":"所以昨天第一時間這是兩件事委員沒有委員部長如果說你本來就可以決定而且結果不一樣你昨天第一時間你就可以表明你的態度你要給他記兩大過停職你昨天為什麼沒有為什麼要讓火燒一天之後今天還說要給他停職為什麼第一時間因為我改變我的思考啊不跟大家講清楚你得思考因為我改變我的思考啊所以部長部長"},{"start":24464.588,"end":24485.936,"text":"我只要跟你講 謝毅龍這個人有問題我相信經過大家的討論都不用再講了但大家現在要看的是勞動部的態度勞動部我第一時間是想息事寧人要怎麼處分考機會決定我不能講或者是說這是噁心力血報告或者是目的良善去講這些讓大家覺得你在包庇他的話大家會對勞動部失望啊"},{"start":24486.716,"end":24508.152,"text":"我沒有包庇他你知道網友現在已經把這個事件去跟洪仲秋事件做連結了為什麼第一個都是跟霸凌有關第二個都是官僚主義在包庇這是大家現在對勞動部的感覺啦委員我做調查報告就是希望不包庇不包庇就不包庇結果做出來這樣報告大家都不滿意還有再來請教一下"},{"start":24509.878,"end":24532.195,"text":"如果你要重新調查會調查的話你還會找許傳聖、黃琳娜、吳雅惠這三個人來調查嗎?黃琳娜跟吳雅惠都不是調查小組成員那他們三個是?只有許傳聖是召集人那召集人然後那另外兩位勒?那另外兩位他們在調查的過程當中扮演的角色是什麼?他沒有角色完全沒角色?是啊"},{"start":24533.619,"end":24559.899,"text":"好所以就不會找他們嗎當然那就回答就好啦你在嗆我幹嘛對不起奇怪我問你問題就回答就好你現在來吵架是不是對不起這是有做錯事嗎對不起這是網路上的不實事那你就澄清啊那我現在問你你說不是那就不是啊就澄清啊謝謝委員那你罵我幹嘛謝謝委員那再來五一勞動節賴總統說民進黨一直是跟勞工站在一起的政黨賴總統講的"},{"start":24563.045,"end":24569.949,"text":"發生了這樣的一個不幸勞工事件還在勞動部發生請問一下賴總統要出來講話嗎你會建議他出來講話嗎賴總統說沒有這是我的錯你的錯所以跟賴總統無關可是你知道我自己承擔你知道當時洪仲秋事件的時候馬總統有出來講話這是我的錯我自己承擔你自己承擔所以你保護賴總統"},{"start":24590.042,"end":24614.727,"text":"這是可以看到一個總統的高度啦可以看到一個總統是否站在勞工這邊啦看到一個總統是否遇到一個舉國關注的一個這樣的不幸事件的態度我只問說部長基於你是勞工的主管最高主管機關你會建議賴總統出來像馬總統一樣出來跟大家講幾句話嗎你會建議嗎我自己承擔所以你會不建議"},{"start":24616.82,"end":24628.668,"text":"好部長請教一下前部長許銘春說他看了這個事件非常的遺憾但是他把原因歸咎於勞動部人員長期不足這樣講法您認同嗎"},{"start":24629.995,"end":24633.376,"text":"委員跟委員報告因為勞動部也是公務體制啊那所以呢"},{"start":24648.021,"end":24666.421,"text":"那是原總原總在決定原的不是勞動部可以決定的你是勞動部照道理來講你應該最站在勞工這邊結果你遇到這個問題兩手一攤說我們也沒辦法解決這個問題那連你們都不能保護你們自己的勞工的你怎麼祈求全台灣的企業會保護員工"},{"start":24667.302,"end":24695.536,"text":"事實上勞動部無法決定自己的原額有多少那你有去爭取嗎?你有為了你們自己的勞工捍衛嗎?權益捍衛嗎?不是現在的問題是說你是勞動部你一直宣導勞工權益很重要要所有企業重視勞工權益結果你們是勞動部你們沒辦法捍衛你們自己勞工權益這位不幸的這位不幸親生的這位當事人他加班剛剛我看許晓芹也有問啊為什麼他加班不用給加班費他還有沒有超時工作有沒有"},{"start":24696.288,"end":24697.288,"text":"委員是 這都我們的錯是 我們應該要檢討"},{"start":24727.355,"end":24733.761,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝葉委員 謝謝部長 接續我們請邱若驊委員質詢謝謝主席 主席請勞動部和部長"},{"start":24756.267,"end":24779.864,"text":"委員好部長好先和部長確認你們昨天開職場霸凌記者會的時候請問被指控涉嫌的霸凌的行為人你說他目前只是幕僚的職務沒有權利正確嗎我已經準備直接要讓他停職了準備直接要讓他停職了那我們看到本期在勞動力發展署職員輕生的那一天就有接到投訴我們可以看到這張截圖"},{"start":24783.783,"end":24812.997,"text":"知情人士跟本席反映說署長涉及職場霸凌署長在下班後還會用LINE問工作的問題只要錯過就是錯過問題就會被拿出來特別檢討那本席也跟勞動力發展署有所知你們的回文是職員一天平均的工作時數是8個小時上下班用刷卡的方式請問部長你們調查報告承認這名洩性的行為人半夜或早上5點都會用LINE詢問工作的事情這工作明顯就已經超過8個小時請問這份所知"},{"start":24813.777,"end":24832.531,"text":"一天工作8個小時是怎麼來的?是其他員工都不用上班還是公然對本席說謊?跟委員報告這個因為之前提供給委員這個齁這個是根據我們目前的刷卡的拆勤紀錄依照這個刷卡的拆勤紀錄去統計"},{"start":24833.956,"end":24852.352,"text":"依照他的刷卡,所以這份資料跟你們實際上,跟這位親身的職員,他的工作史是不符大?這個是因為是猜刑系統的刷卡記錄,但是實際上確實有同仁可能就是沒有在這個刷卡以外的時間,其實就實際上就已經到前那這邊問部長,部長你說他已經要調離了是不是?"},{"start":24858.577,"end":24883.367,"text":"你指哪位這位這位這位署長沒有就直接把他停職啊直接停職那原本是要把他調去哪裡啊那時候還沒有決定那時候還沒有決定那他這樣子罵人或咆哮他不管去到哪裡都還是有一樣的問題啊而且部長你也說他有就醫的需求那你怎麼會把他從另外一個地方再調調到另外一個單位呢你是想要製造新的問題嗎所以並沒有決定"},{"start":24886.297,"end":24914.587,"text":"所以你現在已經決定要把它停職了是嗎?對,現在的決定是要停職那我們再來看到那來跟本席陳情的人有特別提到這位自殺者非常善良,被逼上絕路的前一天他還在跟同事交接工作部長你知道嗎?我知道啊,通過調查小組的報告我才知道你才知道,那這已經不是一兩天的事了吧?"},{"start":24916.391,"end":24917.011,"text":"為什麼這位署長回到辦公室還有這個說法呢?"},{"start":24947.523,"end":24965.704,"text":"那是通靈那是他們當年當時在處理的時候藏儀社藏儀社的通靈阿姨給這個謝芬署長的說法啦你們有沒有就你們管理內部的機制還有這個智能就業服務系統本身制度的問題來做檢討啊"},{"start":24967.719,"end":24996.306,"text":"這就是我要求他們先把自己的人力的配置本身量能就已經不足了加上這工作也沒辦法完成我也沒辦法完成然後也沒有適當的求助管道然後再來是精神跟管理手段也有問題啊那當他們要向上反應的時候部長你是今天才知道啊人都已經被逼到手上絕路了這就是我要啟動調查我才瞭解竟然有這樣子的一個計畫然後是員工做不到的"},{"start":24996.986,"end":25024.642,"text":"而又要被要求這不小心拿出破例給給死者家屬一個交代還有全體國內一個交代好嗎?對,所以我把這個資訊標案都停了要求他們重新檢討是什麼檢討報告什麼時候會出來?啊?檢討報告委員,你是說資訊標案的重新檢討嗎?不是資訊標案,針對這一次沒有,我們的,你是指重啟調查的部分嗎?重啟調查,然後包括我們這個智能這個"},{"start":25028.083,"end":25028.363,"text":"謝謝請委員繼續我們請洪森漢委員質詢"},{"start":25076.434,"end":25103.442,"text":"謝謝主席,我請何部長部長我們今天在未來行政委員討論這個議題坦白說非常非常沉重我想先再問部長一次部長你覺得昨天勞動部公布的調查報告你對這調查報告的內容你滿意嗎我想我自己也不滿意"},{"start":25105.219,"end":25133.673,"text":"我想其實你應該知道其實這一個多星期以來我的辦公室非常非常關注這件事情其實我也好幾度提醒勞動部必須非常非常審慎處理這件事情是我必須坦白說當昨天我看到調查報告的時候我是非常非常的失望的但我的失望是一回事"},{"start":25135.253,"end":25148.054,"text":"但從昨天調查報告公布以後我接到更多的來自勞動部基層的陳情我最擔心的事情是我們勞動部的基層"},{"start":25150.454,"end":25174.949,"text":"對調查報告或對勞動部更失望我最擔心這件事情所以昨天在調查報告公布以後坦白說我是接到更多這樣子的訊息的不然我想請問如果勞動部去針對企業做勞檢的時候發現僱主要求勞工打假卡這有沒有違法?會不會開罰?"},{"start":25176.766,"end":25181.007,"text":"我們在現在有很多媒體報導的訊息裡面看到這一位親生的公務員說到他有被打被迫打假卡的狀況部長看到嗎平常先講如果就調查小組的調查他就打假卡的狀況"},{"start":25207.122,"end":25232.572,"text":"確實就是不尋常部長我要說的事情是從我從勞動部的這些公務人員來跟我們說的訊息裡面恐怕被迫打假卡的不是只有這位公務員而是北分署裡面已經在這一個分署長就任以來的這段時間裡面都是這樣做的"},{"start":25234.195,"end":25255.428,"text":"我要跟部長講我們收到的訊息是這樣子的署長也在這邊第一個謝芬署長很長時間在要求大家要大量的加班交付很重的工作但重點是他不讓同仁們報加班好所以當"},{"start":25261.465,"end":25289.127,"text":"公務員被要求大量加班但又不讓他報加班的時候最後的結果是什麼只有兩個一個要不就被迫打假卡第二個要不就是請調申請調職這會不會是我們有這麼多的北分署的公務員要求調職請調的原因我認為這件事情部長"},{"start":25291.565,"end":25312.151,"text":"應該要查明清楚所以我要說的事情是這恐怕不是只是對這一位親身的公務員的個案的問題如果這位謝芬署長他是在整個署的領導裡面都長期的要求大家用這種方式打假卡不然我要問"},{"start":25315.18,"end":25338.817,"text":"請問勞動部對於其他企業進行工時進行勞檢的時候要怎麼開罰謝謝委員提供這個訊息我真的也是第一次聽到部長這是很多這些基層來跟我們反映的事情所以為什麼我們要說為什麼大家覺得失望因為像這樣子的事件大家都沒有在這個調查報告裡面看到謝芬署長"},{"start":25343.498,"end":25348.282,"text":"對於屬下的要求不是只對這位親身的公務員啊是整個屬啊這是為什麼現在我們收到的訊息裡面接收到的爆料裡面有這麼多是來自於勞發署、北分署他們受不了部長所以我想請問所以接下來在你得知了這些新的狀況以後"},{"start":25370.168,"end":25399.414,"text":"你會怎麼對謝芬署長或者是該做的處置你會怎麼處置我已經謝芬署長會記兩大過停職然後我想蔡署長我會給我會記他一個大過調離主管職然後我們會移送司法移送司法對移送司法檢調以及公務人員懲戒委就是監察院不然我在這邊當然我知道今天下午的時候你有做了這樣子的宣誓"},{"start":25400.643,"end":25409.745,"text":"這是你說這是你的態度可是我這邊想要再跟部長說我認為我們需要在最快速度讓打夾卡的文化在勞動部消失按照我剛才說的我想我們會來徹查我們所有的主管如果勞動部都變成是帶頭要求打夾卡的話那我們怎麼勞檢啊我們真的沒有辦法勞檢啊"},{"start":25429.322,"end":25451.438,"text":"署長你知不知道這件事情在北分署裡面這麼多的同仁被要求大量加班又被要求不能報加班最後只能打假卡署長報告委員那個就是上班的時間跟他的刷卡確實有不一致這個是確實"},{"start":25453.329,"end":25455.851,"text":"為什麼沒有寫在調查報告裡面?你覺得這件事情跟這個謝榮的狀況無關嗎?那為什麼沒有寫在調查報告裡面?"},{"start":25483.423,"end":25501.337,"text":"你說你也聽聞到這樣的事情報告委員這個也是最近在整個調查之間有一些事實慢慢去呈現之後這個我們會進一步再來了解所以在寫這個調查報告前你知道這個事情嗎報告委員並沒有很清楚並沒有很清楚對整個署有這樣子打假卡的文化你說你沒有很清楚署長"},{"start":25510.8,"end":25528.735,"text":"發言委員這個是我沒有進到我的職場所以部長我希望齁當然我知道你做了處置但我我們在這邊要必須要求打假卡的做法跟文化必須要在勞動部裡面全面的清查不能讓它存在"},{"start":25530.445,"end":25549.369,"text":"這不是這一位公務人員他到底死因為何、直接因素為何的問題這是到底我們的勞動部還有沒有辦法再繼續成為臺灣中華民國政府在勞動方面的主管機關大家還信不信任勞動部的問題?部長可以嗎?好好,謝謝謝謝委員好,謝謝洪委員、謝謝部長接下來我們請劉許廷委員質詢"},{"start":25565.793,"end":25567.535,"text":"好 謝謝主席啊 何部長有請"},{"start":25577.981,"end":25602.145,"text":"部長辛苦了啊這一整天今天高達46位立法委員針對這樣的專案報告要提質詢這數量算非常非常多表示這是一個社會重大矚目的案件我們先從制度面來討論一下這件事因為今天很多委員已經問了個案的一些細節但本席相信這個是絕對不會是個案一個作威作福大頭病的官員欺負的絕對不會只有那個親生的人"},{"start":25602.705,"end":25627.507,"text":"所以我要先問勞動部部長這一段時間因為我沒有在調查報告裡面看到相關的數字只有這個不幸輕生的這個基層公務員他之前有沒有陳情過尋各種管道來為自己這個伸張正義有嗎完全沒有完全沒有其他人有沒有其他的基層公務員有沒有如果據我現在的資訊了解其他基層公務員"},{"start":25629.622,"end":25643.856,"text":"有透過各種其他的管道試圖要陳情可是也沒有在我的部會裡面有發現力量就是用各種別的方式要陳情但是就是沒有循自己部會的方式來陳情是這樣意思嗎那部長你會不會覺得有點難過這樣"},{"start":25646.644,"end":25673.14,"text":"照理來講勞動部應該是要幫基層說話的地方對不對幫勞工捍衛權利的地方結果發生了各種超時加班、職場霸凌等等的狀況竟然沒有人循正規的管道來反應這表示規則出了一些問題對不對我們部會裡也有因為霸凌案而立案的今天早上也很多委員問嘛你還有SOP等等但顯然如果剛剛部長的回答是就你所知循部裡面管道的基本上是沒有那不就表示你所有的機制跟SOP形同虛設嗎"},{"start":25674.639,"end":25695.874,"text":"對不對部長這是要檢討的對嘛這是要檢討對不對所以你剛剛在講說什麼我只有10天的時間可以反映這個是很奇怪的事因為這樣的事情一定是長期發生嘛現在很有可能會形成什麼形成公部門的MeToo事件每個人都說對啊其實這個地方文化就是這樣那制度如果不修改或者是制度失靈的時候我們應該怎麼辦呢部長"},{"start":25699.602,"end":25706.875,"text":"沒辦法文化的問題所以即便我們調整了SOP調整了規則調整了沒有用是嗎還是有別的做法精進措施"},{"start":25707.728,"end":25735.347,"text":"我們當然是要來檢討啦當然是要來檢討這個事情一時半刻當然講不清楚但是制度面你剛剛有講你要負起責任很多人講到政治責任你可能要離開這個位置好這是一個層面但是我覺得今天不只是你啦在場坐在這邊所有官員難道不應該及時廣義一下嗎怎麼樣改善公部門的文化也好或者是讓這個制度是可以保護當事人的這是大家都要共同深思的問題這是制度的部分那再來我要問政治的部分"},{"start":25736.267,"end":25761.743,"text":"這部長我唸幾個 你休息一下我唸幾段話給你聽民進黨這個前主席現在前總統蔡英文在評論當初洪仲秋事件的案子他說政府要負最大的責任因為政府一直試圖掩飾真相這個事件評論非常多但大家都非常不滿意現在看到的是不肯坦白不肯誠懇面對社會質疑的政府試圖想掩飾一些事我們必須給政府壓力要求改革同樣的事不要再發生"},{"start":25762.763,"end":25779.856,"text":"時任立委、現任高雄市市長陳其邁評論當初國防部部長因為洪仲秋事件請辭下台時他說:「國防部長高華柱請辭獲准,但這對釐清真相真的有幫助嗎?民進黨強烈反對將洪案的層級限縮在國防部部長。」"},{"start":25780.917,"end":25800.194,"text":"時任民進黨黨主席前行政院長蘇貞昌說政府做了很多刻意隱瞞人民的事情讓大家深深受害政府變成一個無能、賴皮、不負責又日漸粗暴的政府時任立委蕭美琴現任副總統說國防部對整件事情處理怠慢為在第一時間協助並保證受害者家屬"},{"start":25800.734,"end":25827.391,"text":"要求真相的權利處理過程中涉嫌掩蓋事實關關相互讓整起事件疑點重重令人遺憾當初也有公民團體現在不知道在哪裡說我們的政府沒有把人民當人看他們領我們的稅金殺我們的孩子再掰出一個爛劇本讓大家相信等到大家氣到吐血之後再跟大家說一切依法辦理謝謝指教部長你聽了這些話心中作何感想"},{"start":25828.576,"end":25855.695,"text":"當初有洪仲秋現在又有這位基層的公務員民進黨執政了這麼久改變了什麼你覺得這些曾經出來講過話的人他們應不應該再出來講一次話部長我想我們會來反省檢討我們要深刻的反省檢討我聽了今天很多委員的質詢我發現你部長你是我覺得你蠻勇敢的在這個地方這麼多的立法委員輪番砲轟但是我聽到的是你講說責任到你為止對不對"},{"start":25857.318,"end":25878.772,"text":"然後本來早上講說只是調職後來因為也許是社會壓力變成停職處分然後停職處分恐怕又完了因為現在這個當事人直接給你拍拍屁股走人離職出國陪小孩社會憤怒是越來越升高可是部長你今天如果是為長官護航然後為下屬護短的話我們沒有辦法解決任何的問題你的擔當不能用錯地方"},{"start":25879.392,"end":25904.563,"text":"大家希望的是你站在最基層基層公務員也好基層勞工也好付出勞力為自己討生活的這些人他是需要你付出擔當保護的人的地方但顯然我們今天還沒有看到這樣的態度其實啊令人心寒我最後要問部長一個問題很多時候你剛剛內部你講我們出現事情的時候行政單位的內部都會做所謂的行政調查可是行政調查今天出來的調查報告結果就是血流成河慘不忍睹"},{"start":25906.471,"end":25932.043,"text":"為什麼前一段時間國會要召開這個國會無法的修正本席認為這件事情完全構成成立聽證調查的要件請問部長你贊不贊成這件事情我們來辦聽證調查把當事人抓來把話講清楚你贊不贊成我尊重立院尊重立院你個人贊不贊成如果到時候聽證調查的時候要你來作證你會不會來作證我尊重立院尊重立院"},{"start":25934.09,"end":25957.639,"text":"這個喔 待會應該大家也會很好奇這樣子的事情的答案但只是尊重立院真的能夠滿足人民的需求嘛我們現在擔心的這個人現在拍拍屁股走啦當初這些高層講話的高層看起來責任到你為止不用負責當事人啊加害者逍遙法外可以直接出國走人這真的能夠平息社會的民怨嗎請部長三思啊 謝謝"},{"start":25960.907,"end":25987.154,"text":"謝謝林委員 謝謝部長來 繼續我們請羅志祥委員有請部長委員好部長我先念一段文章齁 您聽一下"},{"start":25988.578,"end":26006.235,"text":"你是位認真的公務員,早上6點就上班,下午4點可以下班,但你時常先打下班卡,然後再繼續工作。你下午被長官推薦,還被長官大罵,要求11月4日星期一務必交件。"},{"start":26007.837,"end":26034.418,"text":"11月3號星期日晚上家人來辦公室找你被保全阻擋無法進辦公室無法及時找到你11月4號星期一你把你的性命也一併交了出來這個文章你看過吧我們一位認真的公務員就在勞動部的霸凌之下他交出了工作"},{"start":26036.152,"end":26064.463,"text":"同時也交出了他的生命部長我看到你在備詢時落淚但我跟你講你真的也該落淚你勞動部的員工今天走上這麼悲慘的決路這麼認真的員工辛辛苦苦努力的員工不是他而已多少今天被分屬員工被這位長官霸凌壓迫"},{"start":26065.882,"end":26090.862,"text":"而這位我們這位員工走上了絕路你當然該感到難過可更該難過的是他的家屬更該難過的是我們所有的公務員更該難過也生氣的是今天勞動部是管勞工權益的單位你們的單位竟然發生霸凌員工致死的案件"},{"start":26092.403,"end":26116.52,"text":"你叫全國的勞工怎麼看這件事情這是全民之怒你知道吧您知道吧您知道那我告訴你剛前面很多委員拿起洪仲秋事件來做一個比喻你知道洪仲秋事件發生之後直屬長官被法辦對不對國防部長下台對不對"},{"start":26123.155,"end":26127.416,"text":"馬英九總統出面道歉還到往生者靈堂上香對不對那我想請教你你現在這位公務員認真的公務員他往生了可惡的謝宜龍跑了躲起來了他還是得送考機會送考機會他辭職都要出國陪小孩禮拜五說你要找他來他會來嗎"},{"start":26150.595,"end":26166.603,"text":"我已經直接給他停止了對阿你剛剛說禮拜五你要找他來阿你說他會來嗎他不會理你啦他會來嗎請問你他還是得送考機會送考機會他會來今天出來面對社會大眾嗎你除了記者會他都不願意面對了剛剛牛許晴委員講這個情形就構成聽證調查我告訴你你不用尊重立法院"},{"start":26179.165,"end":26192.497,"text":"這麼大的事情這可惡的謝宜龍就應該把他叫來國會把所有事情問清楚問明白今天做得到嗎?部長今天做得到嗎?請問不要講你叫他來他不會理你國會叫他來會不會理?會不會理?你跟我講會不會理嗎?"},{"start":26212.768,"end":26240.63,"text":"委員我們會盡全力來處理他不會理啦因為大法官做他的靠山啦大法官說不用理立法院啦全世界都有聽證調查大法官把他沒收了國防部長當時洪仲秋下台了你現在還是在這個地方你還是在這個地方你剛說過了你可以離開我知道但我就看你怎麼離開"},{"start":26242.264,"end":26251.726,"text":"我先告訴你喔這件事情我必須客觀的講你有責任沒錯吧我有責任阿對當然責任全部全在你也有別人有責任那有責任的跑了叫許明春他重用這個人綠帳狗市阿狗帳綠市阿今天他為什麼可以這麼囂張"},{"start":26268.951,"end":26272.814,"text":"你竟然在這邊要代替他接受社會大眾的責難他比你還大我告訴你"},{"start":26294.962,"end":26296.923,"text":"第三個我就要說"},{"start":26323.11,"end":26331.813,"text":"紅仲丘案馬總統親自出來道歉親自到往生者靈堂上香求賴總統到現在說一句話沒我告訴你你也承擔不了賴清德總統我不是怪你因為這你不能決定但你至少告訴賴清德總統人民有多憤怒到現在為止他一句話都沒說什麼叫你犯的錯"},{"start":26351.153,"end":26359.777,"text":"責任是一個垂直體系那我馬總統也可以講那是國防部犯的錯阿我自己承擔阿馬總統也可以講國防部犯的錯不關我的事阿你們幹嘛找我叫國防部長出來說這是我的錯我承擔就好阿到現在為止在新的總統是沒有一句話說欸這樣對嗎這樣可以嗎"},{"start":26376.328,"end":26397.532,"text":"再來我要告訴部長為什麼你有責任我剛剛講許明川今天用了這個人重用這個人靠著他的事今天囂張跋扈出事不負責任躲起來可是我跟你講今天我跟部長講我今天看你的報告我真的看到快吐血了你什麼噁心瀝血的報告是讓人吐血的報告今天謝宜龍可以這麼囂張"},{"start":26403.086,"end":26430.374,"text":"你們今天勞動部這份報告就是一面照妖精就是他的幫兇你知道嗎你知道什麼叫草菅人命這個報告叫草菅人命你知道什麼叫官官相護這個報告就是官官相護然後我跟你講你裡面竟然可以大大說謝芬署長的管理方式不是同人親身直接原因你憑什麼做這個結論啊"},{"start":26432.912,"end":26435.173,"text":"請問部長你憑什麼做這個結論當然你後來改啊改口啦你說要開始記他兩大過啊停職啊你說這裡就有霸凌當然我前面也講過啦你的霸凌裡面也是一個非常奇怪的霸凌你說有霸凌但是不是發生在往生者身上他沒有對往生者霸凌他對其他人霸凌"},{"start":26456.787,"end":26466.376,"text":"我跟你講今天正因為你的報告還說他目的良善捏你還說得出這個謝宜龍目的良善今天謝宜龍當然這麼囂張啊你今天如果今天勞動部你都在幫他背書的時候你告訴我"},{"start":26475.606,"end":26489.355,"text":"他能不囂張嗎?我們能不今天疑惑到底謝宜龍何許人背後靠山到底多大還要勞駕你打電話給民進黨黨部透過民進黨黨部去關心民進黨的議員他怎麼那麼厲害啊還勞駕你在這邊一個人來承受今天大家的一個質詢他自己躲起來"},{"start":26501.704,"end":26522.014,"text":"我真的沒看過這麼大的官比你還大最後我要說我真的誠懇的奉勸今天所以部長你今天你說過你會以符合社會期待的方式來負起責任我看著你怎麼以符合社會期待的方式來負起責任第二個你身為勞動部部長你要去讓賴清德總統知道你要讓卓榮泰院長知道"},{"start":26530.539,"end":26545.392,"text":"這件事是讓整個勞動部捍衛勞工權益免受霸凌的信任全部崩盤還能躲著不講話真的是不應該請賴總統出來今天對全國勞工人說一聲對不起吧謝謝你好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請鄭正前委員質詢"},{"start":26561.128,"end":26562.075,"text":"主席好我請一下何部長"},{"start":26570.365,"end":26591.251,"text":"部長你好我想說今天整天備詢下來其實我們也看到你掉眼淚我們也看到你對於原本的調查報告提出了很多不同的轉折提出了一些新的處分那因為我看到了這個整個調查報告當中你們記者會當中直接講到說沒有辦法證明北分署長謝怡榮有實際的職場霸凌的情形我真的完全崩潰"},{"start":26593.272,"end":26616.725,"text":"這麼多一個北分署、勞動署和勞發署這一邊一兩百個人寫出陳情書喔民進黨民意代表收到了超過150份以上的陳情書這麼多的案例當中的時候你說沒有辦法證明還有實際的職場霸凌我想問一下部長喔怎麼樣才叫做有實際的職場霸凌你可以具體講一下"},{"start":26619.503,"end":26631.979,"text":"對,我們在調查報告裡面其實也有證實他確實有對其他的同仁有實際的職場霸凌所以對其他的同仁有實際的可是對這個往生者無性的共生是沒有職場霸凌"},{"start":26632.793,"end":26654.773,"text":"透過誠誠的傳達有可能OK誠誠的傳達嘛因為我對這部分的時候完全沒辦法接受而且因為看到你們記者會之後呢很多的人繼續在爆料就第一個爆料說我們的所有的那個調查小組的組成的成員啊很多人都跟謝宜龍有直接的關係或間接的關係"},{"start":26656.534,"end":26681.729,"text":"至少在陳情人裡面昨天跟我們聯絡的就有了他們就直接講到說這些小組裡面有很多人跟他有什麼樣的關係然後就直接寫出來直接間接的很多他就直接講到說這調查相互組分別就是關關相互所以大家看到這個調查報告絕對就是勞動部出來要來幫這個分署長洗地用的你知道嗎只是沒有想到這樣出來之後就讓大家更惱怒"},{"start":26682.689,"end":26706.064,"text":"更惱怒所以你剛剛也直接講到說那個拉巴族署長會被記憶大過會調離現職對不對都直接講了這個都是今天在備詢當中才直接做了一個轉彎那我本期這邊要特別提到說因為大家看到你們這個記者會內容之後有人繼續來爆料就有人講說謝宜龍他在他當分署長任內的時候"},{"start":26707.881,"end":26729.313,"text":"有很多的標案都先指定廠商先做了之後再來把後面的程序補起來你知道這個事情嗎我們正在調查中調查中嘛那現在的情況碰到這個情況的時候我們看到謝榮可能想要一走了之拍在屁股走掉那我們要怎麼去追究這後續的一個責任"},{"start":26730.712,"end":26745.259,"text":"還是會送考機會溢儲的他如果都不當公務人員他還送考機會還在乎你送考機會溢儲搞出人命出來的人就走掉了所以在這個部分本席也特別要求我們他還沒有做出處分前我不會准他的辭呈"},{"start":26746.175,"end":26759.286,"text":"沒有做出處分前不會准他離職我們都記住然後我們也希望召委這邊針對這個案子的時候希望能夠在院會當中提出一個調查委員會成立一個調查委員會針對這部分來做一個很詳細的一個糾正因為在勞動部"},{"start":26763.729,"end":26763.949,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":26783.729,"end":26811.472,"text":"要哭的是老百姓要哭的是勞工不是高高在上的官員那我在這邊也特別提到在這過程當中11月4號當天的時候謝宜龍他就召開了三場的說明會針對分署裡面的員工就開始講出通靈說這個部分然後還要求大家能不能夠做得到不要把這個霸凌的事情往外說明部長你知道這事情嗎"},{"start":26814.115,"end":26829.48,"text":"曾經事情當中他們很具體講到三場謝榮姐講了三場他那個發言不當啦發言不當對不對所以我們希望針對教訓一定要嚴加考慮然後我這邊最後再問一個行政院人事行政總處這邊"},{"start":26833.003,"end":26852.262,"text":"因為馬上因為勞動部發生這件事情之後很多其他的部會也開始報出來類似的一個案子今天下午馬上就報出了一個衛福部、疾管署也出現土皇帝這樣的事情的時候我們政府到底要怎麼去做"},{"start":26856.462,"end":26864.081,"text":"這個部分的話該調查該處理的就是要做處理我想院長在上個禮拜的院會也有"},{"start":26867.791,"end":26888.268,"text":"我們在看到這當中的時候我們希望就是政府真的是能夠去執行解決問題而不是只想要解決提出問題的人因為新北的民進黨議員李雨祥受到了關切然後大家就覺得說怎麼會一個民進黨的議員"},{"start":26890.914,"end":26893.295,"text":"這個調查過程我想機關在做處理我們有相關的處理機制在運作"},{"start":26918.601,"end":26942.532,"text":"OK那我想說這邊的時候我們就期待我們接下來的時候我們在院會當中的時候能夠成立一個針對這個議案的一個調查委員會希望能夠真正透過國會的一個聽證調查權把這問題能夠釐清該負責任的人直接負責任而不是部長直接講說責任到他就可以了我們認為這件事情是整個行政體系的一個問題不是一個部長"},{"start":26943.823,"end":26944.144,"text":"報告委員因為我這個這個"},{"start":26951.55,"end":26977.89,"text":"提出申訴的話依照我們現行的相關的那個作業流程理解我剛才也再來只是要特別提到機關署也發現土航地請直接那個機關署他們也已經在啟動調查理解對所以在行政院這邊成立委員會這我沒辦法在這邊做成這個不是我的職權範圍而且所以我們立法院要成立委員會不是行政院還是回到機關裡面來做處理理解謝謝"},{"start":26984.122,"end":26986.735,"text":"謝謝鄭委員 接下來我們請林倩許委員質詢"},{"start":26997.141,"end":27015.589,"text":"主席、令人同仁還有我們行政院的夥伴們今天針對這個職場霸凌防治與處理作業我想請我們的勞動部長、衛福部長及教育部的代表我們先一起上來好不好我想基本上我們是這個部長請還有衛福部司長還有教育部處長好"},{"start":27021.836,"end":27033.765,"text":"我先就教育部的這個部分那個近期有兩個霸凌事件引起社會的這個關注第一個是臺灣基層的球這個體壇報出不當的體罰那麼這個教練呢這其實是選手在"},{"start":27044.23,"end":27056.139,"text":"網路上報出這樣一個問題但事實上這件事情已經今年累月了那本席在這邊要討論的是教育部你們其實在112年3月17號在專任運動教練增能研習納入教練領導行為之專業之能的書面報告中已經做過相關說明但是"},{"start":27071.544,"end":27075.766,"text":"所以我在這邊跟你講因為我們今天其實是針對怎麼樣防治霸凌的防治跟處理那我相信今天的議題一整天許多人都針對現在時事的議題提出了很多的看法"},{"start":27101.255,"end":27116.909,"text":"但我這邊要先提醒的是你們在之前已經發生過相關的霸凌事件也寫過報告但是這個報告截至今年又已經經過了一兩年這個事情還是在發生據我所知體談的這件事情教練也已經離開了"},{"start":27119.314,"end":27143.308,"text":"那這就會關係到剛才前面有委員有講的就那個勞動部如果未來相關的人員也離開了雖然部長這邊也有做一些承諾但是教育部你們已經碰到人員離開了但這件事情在現在已經造成選手的終身的遺憾所以本席在這邊特別指出因為你們的不積極作為"},{"start":27145.219,"end":27145.339,"text":"事實上"},{"start":27159.377,"end":27162.66,"text":"我這邊先做一個提醒我們不希望未來再聽到有這樣的事件發生好謝謝教育部麻煩你把這個話帶回去"},{"start":27187.981,"end":27195.586,"text":"那接下來我就針對這個勞動部部長我想今天從早到現在很多人都已經指出你們發生的事情你這邊也做了很多回應但是我還是強調這件事情在過程當中你們難道都沒有掌握嗎"},{"start":27218.769,"end":27221.111,"text":"請你說明一下好不好"},{"start":27249.623,"end":27273.483,"text":"好 報告委員這個案子其實完全是我的責任那北分所這一兩年確實離任率比較多那是在過程當中你們有掌握嗎對 因為我們大概有去了解那個離退的原因那因為有些是因為是退休那有些是因為是升遷那有些是因為個人所以你們完全沒有掌握任何跟這些事情相關的直接的訊息嗎"},{"start":27274.164,"end":27303.802,"text":"跟委員報告因為這段時間真確實是也沒有任何來反映有遭受到一些其他的不當的情形如果有其實我們第一時間一定會做一個徹底的一個調查那這聽起來還真是如生門怎麼辦呢然後部長說他要概括承受結果你們在事前也沒有掌握那我不知道未來還有沒有可能發生這樣子的事情跟委員報告這個事件我們會痛定思痛我們會針對我們內控的一些因素我們會加強來做一些管理"},{"start":27305.317,"end":27327.869,"text":"好 謝謝勞動部所以整體是不是衛福部不好意思衛福部那個職場心理健康是很重要的一個議題那這次勞動部發生這個事情我們常常都是在發生事情然後處理之後事實上我們都挽救不了任何的事啊那請問你們在這個區塊怎麼做呢"},{"start":27331.804,"end":27347.611,"text":"你們不是有這個相關的自殺防治法嗎然後還要結合各部會我想了解一下結合各部會結合勞動部出了這個事教育部還有未解決的問題那請問衛福部在這個部分你們的困難跟你覺得真正的問題癥結在哪裡"},{"start":27349.907,"end":27364.326,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們不管是在促進全民的心理健康提升全民的心理健康韌性或者在做自殺防治的部分這個都是要跨部會大家一起來做的那所以怎麼個跨防呢事情一直在發生而且發生到很離譜啦"},{"start":27366.327,"end":27385.452,"text":"其實不管是在這個勞動部或是國防部或是教育部等等部會其實在提升自己權管範圍之內的這個民眾的心理健康都有提出一些作為我知道你們都有很多報告很多作為可是重點是你們這個自殺防治法的相關作為"},{"start":27387.449,"end":27387.929,"text":"謝謝委員那我們會結合其他部會一起來把這個報告提出來謝謝"},{"start":27413.939,"end":27417.38,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長 現在休息3分鐘"},{"start":27445.093,"end":27445.574,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":27693.484,"end":27694.284,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會好,謝謝何部長有請"},{"start":27723.373,"end":27746.22,"text":"不好意思 召委有請何部長好 我要先跟大家開宗明義講我接下來的態度很強硬很大聲但是我目的良善我要告訴大家網路都在說啊生前生疏無果死後追風講張全民都在笑"},{"start":27747.611,"end":27772.111,"text":"我要問現在部長你們要追封然後你現在公務人員撫恤金全民買單嗎?你要不要幫助這些家屬幫忙求償?說清楚講明白我一定會幫忙爭取公務人員撫恤的部分公務人員撫恤講白的大家大大方方拿的是誰的錢?人民的納稅錢但是卻是霸凌者該負的責任"},{"start":27774.278,"end":27782.604,"text":"部長你終於承認終於終於承認他是霸凌你還配合演戲開記者會部長我對你一絲的尊重從那一場記者會蕩然無存你很認真的負責任去做這件事情但是為什麼你在幫助加害者你說目的良善你現在才告訴我現在這份報告有問題"},{"start":27805.011,"end":27817.915,"text":"部長大家不能接受為死者發聲啊今天你掉了這麼多的眼淚而這些是鱷魚的眼淚換不回一條人命我知道你很委屈我知道你掉淚我知道這個人不是你把著的但部長你覺得你委屈嗎"},{"start":27834.468,"end":27836.229,"text":"我們罵不到那個把著他的人我們都痛心疾首但是問題擺在眼前貴黨的委員劉建國112年3月到現在有高達81位"},{"start":27856.687,"end":27871.699,"text":"其中不管還有主管有9位的主任、5位的科長、2位的股長、1位的廠長兩年有17位主管離職、81位所有的同仁離開這個場所監委到現在還爆料還有國防部、衛福部、教育部"},{"start":27881.69,"end":27887.835,"text":"不要看到勞動部被罵沒你們的事趕快回去徹查有沒有這樣子的不適任主管到現在50分鐘前謝怡榮出招了他說他不等你來給他記兩大過他自行請辭"},{"start":27903.905,"end":27917.116,"text":"委員我不會准他的磁場我知道但我們看到的是什麼?態度問題!謝宜蓉到現在還沒有道歉而我們所有的人在探討整個公寮腐敗今天你說你要下台你說你要負政治責任林佳龍為了51條人命他負政治責任他連火車都不會開"},{"start":27934.69,"end":27941.952,"text":"你今天為了我們這一個勞動部的同仁我要告訴你我幫你算了一件事情你聽聽看"},{"start":27944.602,"end":27971.605,"text":"這件事情發生在11月4號一名40歲的公務人員在4樓上班搭4號電梯一直到11月14號星期四下午4點在勞動部的臉書你寫下了400餘字的談話這麼多的事這麼多的事到底是冥冥之中有注定"},{"start":27974.438,"end":27998.798,"text":"還是死者死不瞑目我還看到了你那一份報告目的良善還看到了你們跟大家講的這一個謝分署長告訴我們他有去觀落陰這一份報告根本就是泯滅人心分署長冷血部長你是冷眼啊這件事情"},{"start":28003.049,"end":28022.975,"text":"我跟你講我剛剛也點名了各個部會不要只看勞動部被罵各個部會有沒有這樣子的不是任主管是我們現在持續要追蹤的但今天我們看到的要不是蘇清泉委員他排了這一案勞動部會面對嗎到今天你可能還神隱欸署長"},{"start":28027.369,"end":28033.114,"text":"我昨天就出來開記者會記者會內容全民能接受嗎你昨天不開記者會還好開了只是討罵讓人民看到勞動部部長還幫謝怡榮講話難怪你會被糾正難怪你會今天逃不過我們專案報告你有沒有覺得你很委屈"},{"start":28055.233,"end":28060.297,"text":"你有沒有感受到我的目的良善有沒有蔡牧良你要不要即刻停職我要尊重你覺得你應該要不要負政治責任報告委員我覺得我已經不適格擔任署長"},{"start":28079.554,"end":28093.748,"text":"我們不是要弄你們阿而是全民都在關注一條人命發生在勞動部勞動部要保護勞工而勞動竟然死在自己的勞動部的辦公室搞什麼鬼阿他選擇在自己的上班地點上吊自殺你告訴我他是愛這個地方還是恨這個地方"},{"start":28108.086,"end":28110.728,"text":"我無法感受到他當時有多麼恐慌難怪你們今天草野、團結、一致檢討我希望兩位你們要負上你們自己的政治責任好,謝謝劉委員,語重心長來,最後一個請陳雲委員趕快"},{"start":28142.636,"end":28170.003,"text":"謝謝主席那個麻煩請部長那個蔡署長一起好了那個部長我想這邊有一些資訊我先確認一下就是謝宜榮分署長他是否已經請辭還是他是已經就是說你們打算兩大過免是因為我剛有聽到消息說他已經請辭你有你有準嗎"},{"start":28174.266,"end":28181.086,"text":"我請署長澄清好嗎好報告委員到目前沒有接到謝副分署長有請職的這樣的一個情形"},{"start":28181.442,"end":28210.882,"text":"好那我想在這邊說明一下因為我聽到這個消息我還蠻我還蠻錯愕也蠻恐慌的就是因為請辭跟兩大過免職的差異在於請辭他還有機會可以再回任的因為我剛剛看到一個消息說他請辭然後是想到國要理由是要到國外陪小孩剛剛有接到這樣的訊息齁那那這個就表示他等風波過了他還可以再回來嗎這個恐怖的人還可以再回來嗎"},{"start":28212.523,"end":28229.739,"text":"所以我想在這邊點出這個你們要特別注意如果今天部長輕易的答應了核准了他的請辭我覺得這個才是對死者最大的不敬真的太便宜他了因為我們等於還在袒護他還在給他一次機會那麼"},{"start":28233.74,"end":28261.56,"text":"另外我說三位齁很倒霉陪葬的官員部長他們有什麼處分啊是算已經口頭公佈了嗎就是根本報告我剛剛已經做就是表達我的態度就是謝榮記兩大過停職那麼我們蔡署長記一大過調離主管職那還有兩位移送司法"},{"start":28262.93,"end":28264.852,"text":"其實有很多的委員有問過蔡署長說謝怡榮是不是你推薦的"},{"start":28293.001,"end":28312.495,"text":"其實答案很清楚不是不是蔡署長推薦的因為我們都知道檢認缺不是署長的權責可以決定的所以謝芬署長不是蔡署長推薦的人那是因為上面交辦他必須按照流程去蓋章嘛我這樣講有沒有錯"},{"start":28316.025,"end":28340.984,"text":"你是說謝分署長任命的過程嗎?對啊,他不是...你如果照行政程序流程是什麼意思?剛剛有問嘛,那我直接問蔡署長,請問謝榮署長分署長是你推薦的嗎?你推薦他去做分署長的嗎?你要講清楚,是你自己push這件事去推他還是你按照上頭交辦行政流程你必須要蓋這個章?"},{"start":28344.842,"end":28369.239,"text":"這個因為這涉及到我們的分署的首長所以都是要跟長官先報告好這樣我了解因為也非常符合你的答案也是非常符合我們的理解就是簡任卻不是署長你可以做就是可以主張做決定但是在行政這個行政的流程你必須你必須要蓋章嗎"},{"start":28370.12,"end":28383.051,"text":"好那我想在我想你的角色其實也很尷尬因為在這個事情發生之前你已經是可以退休的人而且你已經申請過退休了但是你真的還蠻倒楣的好那"},{"start":28385.313,"end":28411.152,"text":"你很...就是說可能對這樣的工作你有熱情你留下來協助大家但是也很不幸的遇到這樣的事情但是我個人我不敢網路上網友對你有什麼批評跟誤會但是我覺得我覺得認真做事情的人也不應該在這個時候被霸凌所以我也要說出一些真相那我在這裡我也不怕人家來撻伐我要替...我要替這個蔡署長"},{"start":28412.653,"end":28424.481,"text":"說幾句話我很佩服他他從頭到尾我聽到的就是他說都是我的錯他承擔我希望勞動部的每一位長官都有他這樣的一個風骨"},{"start":28425.816,"end":28453.969,"text":"我不會在這裡拜託說強留他留下來因為我覺得這件事情或許在在他的心裡在很多人心裡已經造成遺憾但是他就是說都是我的錯他全部承擔他也沒有從頭到尾沒有點出到底是誰交辦要用要任命謝怡榮這件事情他就是承擔所以他自己不講我在這裡替他講我覺得"},{"start":28455.495,"end":28475.524,"text":"已經有人因為被霸凌結束了自己的生命我也希望在接下來所有的處分裡面都可以清清楚楚調查清楚包括今天在處理臨時提案的時候我還特別提到了二月份就有人檢舉這件事情"},{"start":28476.96,"end":28503.013,"text":"那我們之前的次長也呈報了這件事情但是很奇怪這件事情就是到不了部長的手上部長就是聽不到就沒辦法看到為什麼中間那個門神是誰呀請你們好好去查一查啦所以今天很遺憾的蔡署長必須必須要去接受一個大過然後"},{"start":28504.804,"end":28507.345,"text":"我也非常感謝蔡署長因為他本來要退休了"},{"start":28533.945,"end":28561.65,"text":"是我硬把他留下來的是我懇求他留下來的他在這個過程裡面幫忙了我非常多突破了很多政策包括最近我們好不容易要上路的多元陪伴服務方案包括台印的MOU我真的覺得我有這個榮幸與他一起共事他是一位非常優秀的文官"},{"start":28563.956,"end":28576.203,"text":"我也很抱歉我拖累了他但是部長我也抱歉我拖累了他真的很抱歉部長我想"},{"start":28577.856,"end":28580.457,"text":"我會向行政院請辭我會向行政院請辭"},{"start":28603.327,"end":28624.275,"text":"希望的不是你被逼請辭而是你發自內心你認為你應該要請辭負責因為我看到的是蔡署長他第一時間他就他就覺得他就表態他就是說他的錯他他要負責但是我覺得比他更高階的長官應該更有那個風骨跟氣度展現出來但我很高興你現在講出這樣的話"},{"start":28626.797,"end":28654.833,"text":"那所以我想在這件事情發生之後我覺得我有更重要的建議也趁兩位站在這裡的時候因為我不知道下次還會不會看到你們我先提一下這個非常重要的是因為在財團法人災害預防重建中心在華山辦理這個關懷殖災勞工及眷屬的援遊會媒體露出了一個非常重要的訊息那就是他們除了要面對僱主是否願意負責外呢跟要面對接種而來的社會現實"},{"start":28656.134,"end":28676.17,"text":"這個包括了未來的家庭、經濟衝擊還有漫長的這個復健的過程那家人也必須要跟著受苦那你們可以辦這樣的活動讓這個職災勞工跟眷屬的聲音被報導出來那這個是一項非常重要的突破表示你們願意正視這個問題那本席也在這裡表示對這樣的事情表示肯定"},{"start":28676.75,"end":28703.002,"text":"但是我也注意到了一件事職災勞工的心理復健可能也是要被重視的一個議題那現在的做法好像是交由醫院的心理專業人員去諮商那我明白你們有做只是說多少比例的這個職災勞工他有用到這樣子的資源以及使用之後到底成效如何那個署長你有沒有數據可以跟我們來外界說明有沒有數據簡短部長"},{"start":28705.799,"end":28709.764,"text":"來我跟你講數據吼我的理解吼不是個位數就是十位數而已喔很低喔"},{"start":28724.921,"end":28742.555,"text":"阿你如果覺得我講得串沒關心你資料準備好你下次來告訴大家因為今天我們關注了這個資產霸凌的問題我記得之前我們也曾經關心過這個勞工的心理健康如何被支持的議題一般勞工會因為過高的這個職業壓力過勞而衍生心理健康的問題另外"},{"start":28744.136,"end":28769.697,"text":"一個就是霸凌那這三種的類型的這個心理傷害主要是發生在一般的職場那仍然而且是仍然在職的這個勞工朋友但是我們似乎忘記了一件很重要的事就是還有一群更弱勢的職災勞工他們跟眷屬眷屬的這個憂鬱跟悲傷是因為職災而發生的那他們也有心理傷害所以同時呢"},{"start":28770.538,"end":28798.57,"text":"我覺得這個部分也可以被災保法的資源來保護跟關懷那部長跟這個署長覺得我這樣的建議提醒是不是應該要被接受先委員提醒因為現行部分重要職災的家屬我們會給慰勞、給慰助跟一些協助那委員提醒就是後續心理的一些協助我覺得是很好的對還有家屬的部分也很重要那因為本席今天關注的重點是職災勞工跟眷屬的心理壓力如何被照顧還有你們過去有做但不知道做得好不好的前提之下呢"},{"start":28799.23,"end":28813.885,"text":"我想在這邊提出兩項的建議就是這個職災勞工可以單獨使用心理治療跟諮商的權利而不是只有參加你們的職能復健的個案之後才有機會獲得幫助"},{"start":28816.196,"end":28834.453,"text":"這個是很重要的一件事情對一定要調整好嗎然後更重要的是說你們都要先評估然後由這個醫院安排臨床心理醫師去輔導這樣的機制對這個職災勞工是非常不方便的那如果這個職災勞工有心理問題可不可以"},{"start":28834.973,"end":28856.025,"text":"直接去找醫師或心理師只要是這個職災引起的就如同這個職業病一樣就可以免費診治那特別是有這種災後症候群PTSD的這一群可以被治療被照顧甚至甚至就是要給這個更高的這個診療費用你們可不可以做到"},{"start":28857.032,"end":28873.557,"text":"跟委員報告應該是這個處理機制的問題我們當然是哲學阿公跟我們反映之後我們透過機制就馬上送到心理師做諮商這個程序我們會再做檢討不是啦 因為有時候要經過你們那一關的時候大家就會就會擔心啦報告委員當然他這樣心理師諮商也是我們有合作的心理師這樣子很明確的那個"},{"start":28875.297,"end":28875.838,"text":"第二點就是說可以擴及到職在勞工的眷屬"},{"start":28892.02,"end":28892.04,"text":"是,謝謝"},{"start":28916.001,"end":28916.021,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":28945.188,"end":28946.149,"text":"謝謝主席。我們有請部長跟人總。"},{"start":28980.998,"end":28982.099,"text":"我不敢有期許"},{"start":29010.373,"end":29037.595,"text":"也沒有任何遺憾我覺得我這6個月得到很多文官朋友的幫助我非常的感謝是難得的寶貴的經驗 謝謝好 那我想因為其實勞動部在這一次的事件上面因為我想我們今天要來做的就是如何精進未來我們可以如何避免這樣子的憾事再發生那我想我自己做個簡單的建議那我也希望部長可以交接給未來的部長也就是說這一次我們發現了就是"},{"start":29038.956,"end":29052.606,"text":"很多員工說他們有申訴但是在機制上面在布裡面卻完全看不到這是一個申訴機制到底暢不暢通或是有沒有被掩蓋的事實這個可能要做個清查第二個部分是說我們在調資料的時候呢我們有發現說"},{"start":29054.997,"end":29055.217,"text":"謝謝部長好"},{"start":29081.178,"end":29094.428,"text":"我想因為其實昨天任總也就做了一個回應那這段回應我覺得我簡單來說就是我要給你緣額請你們自己檢討你們自己的人力但是我必須要跟任總來做個說明這件事情"},{"start":29098.526,"end":29113.619,"text":"這個員工他本身就是處理資訊系統的人所以導致他的壓力過大不得不選上青春這一圖所以你今天告訴他說請你們檢查業務量的分配和考慮使用科技的方式我想這是文不對題沒有針對到這件事情的回應"},{"start":29114.62,"end":29122.764,"text":"那我想這件事情我們應該如何務實的來檢討根據公務人員服務法第12條第3項是這樣子寫的每天不能夠超過12個小時各機關為推動業務需要"},{"start":29127.728,"end":29144.534,"text":"每日不得超過12個小時延長辦公時數每月不得超過60小時但為了搶救重大災害處理緊急或重大突發事件的話可以延長這樣子所以這名公務員呢看他10月份的工作時數的話每天大約7點就到了"},{"start":29145.154,"end":29159.113,"text":"那到下午大概6點的時候下班扣除中間一個小時的話他每天工作大約是9個小時但我們剛剛看剛剛那個打卡紀錄嘛我們就知道這是假的紀錄因為他打完卡之後又回去上班你們認為這個問題出現在哪裡"},{"start":29162.919,"end":29183.725,"text":"跟委員報告就是說基本上公務人員打假卡其實是不允許的啦對但是為什麼會因為我想這件事情不是只有這個機關有很多的公務員都跟我們反映有類似的情形那你覺得原因是什麼那因為保障法已經有明定就是說你公務人員加班要經主管指派"},{"start":29184.98,"end":29188.841,"text":"我覺得這個回答其實是完全沒有了解基層的現況"},{"start":29213.567,"end":29240.857,"text":"非常非常狀況外的一個回答因為為什麼今天他們要這麼要去做這個打假卡加班的這件事情呢你們不要說你們不知情因為每次跟你們討論要不要增加員額的時候你們的反應都是要機關自行的去盤點閒置的人力或者直接說主計總處沒有錢然後這些機關就只好這樣日復一日的繼續下去待不下去的人可能就趕快的離職掉去新的單位那或者是說"},{"start":29241.897,"end":29245.06,"text":"對於同仁如果真的有加班逝世該給加班補休的或加班費這個機關就是要依規定來辦理"},{"start":29267.13,"end":29267.23,"text":"黃婕、黃婕、黃婕委員不在"},{"start":29298.075,"end":29325.781,"text":"邱志維、邱志維、邱志維委員不在萬美玲改書面執行賴志寶、賴志寶、賴志寶委員不在林國成、林國成改書面執行柯之恩委員改書面執行陳培宇、陳培宇、陳培宇委員不在鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":29326.724,"end":29350.723,"text":"王宏威委員不在何欣淳委員不在吳秉瑞委員不在本日會議詢問全部結束委員林國成、張家俊、柯志恩、萬美玲所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":29353.061,"end":29369.116,"text":"現在作以下決定,報告與審討完畢。委員執行為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關於兩週內書面答覆,委員歷行要求者從其鎖定。本日會議到此結束,現在散會。"},{"start":29379.479,"end":29379.78,"text":"主席"},{"start":29409.713,"end":29410.758,"text":"這是一個零四的問題"}]}},{"id":"16290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16290","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eabae2c6269a10f1bfce1f9dc46489d241b104c5adbfed68f705ebf270723f78d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「公職人員選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)\t審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(二)\t審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(三)\t審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條文修正草案」案。(四)\t審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草案」案。(五)\t審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正草案」案。(六)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算。 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國民黨怕罷免!不要偷偷摸摸!反對沒收文明罷免權!不要搞過水!徐欣盈不要偷偷摸摸!"},{"start":2028.841,"end":2029.65,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":2049.486,"end":2055.855,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案"},{"start":2098.22,"end":2112.829,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2120.885,"end":2127.509,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案"},{"start":2151.466,"end":2153.468,"text":"有名的有名的有名的"},{"start":2160.547,"end":2178.733,"text":"案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。 案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2186.716,"end":2194.261,"text":"案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2214.23,"end":2216.591,"text":"公民黨罷免!"},{"start":2216.591,"end":2217.791,"text":"公民黨罷免!"},{"start":2244.991,"end":2251.618,"text":"案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2279.881,"end":2284.026,"text":"王宏威愛照領王宏威愛照領"},{"start":2308.482,"end":2310.385,"text":"案。 招搖威 怕罷免"},{"start":2316.766,"end":2341.816,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、八、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":2355.773,"end":2376.438,"text":"國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是怕罷免?國民黨為什麼要提最高門檻的選擇法就是"},{"start":2381.168,"end":2381.632,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":2422.542,"end":2423.824,"text":"王宏威不要打人!"},{"start":2921.101,"end":2929.924,"text":"有意義有意義有意義有意義有意義有意義"},{"start":2952.224,"end":2957.347,"text":"案。 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2976.673,"end":2996.126,"text":"我們黨不要沒收人民報名權我們黨不要沒收人民報名權不要違法宣讀沒收人民報名權我們黨不要違法宣讀沒收人民報名權不要違法宣讀沒收人民報名權"},{"start":3000.449,"end":3025.542,"text":"文明黨不要違法宣讀!莫說文明罷免權!不要違法宣讀!不要偷偷選辦法!不要偷偷選辦法!文明黨不要違法宣讀!不要偷偷選辦法!不要偷偷選辦法!民眾優先不要違法!不要莫說文明罷免權!"},{"start":3027.777,"end":3035.487,"text":"審查委員楊曜等23人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等23人擬具"},{"start":3048.15,"end":3055.673,"text":"違法宣讀違法宣讀違法宣讀違法宣讀違法宣讀違法宣讀"},{"start":3073.163,"end":3074.264,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3104.844,"end":3105.465,"text":"回憶無相喔!"},{"start":3122.336,"end":3134,"text":"徐欣盈偷偷摸摸會議無效違法宣讀會議無效不要偷渡選罷法國民黨這麼害怕選罷法這麼怕罷免國民黨違法宣讀會議無效國民黨怕什麼"},{"start":3145.363,"end":3172.371,"text":"國民黨怕罷免違法宣讀、偷渡選罷法違法宣讀、偷渡選罷法會議無效不要這麼怕罷免國民黨不要搞偷渡徐欣盈不要搞偷渡違法宣讀林切祺請站在人民這一邊林切祺請站在人民這一邊不要違法宣讀"},{"start":3175.65,"end":3193.24,"text":"違法簽署會議無效!為什麼?為什麼這麼怕罷免?要沒收人民的權益!為什麼?不要害怕罷免!不要沒收罷免!國民黨搞脫度!國民黨搞脫度!國民黨搞罷免搞脫度!國民黨搞脫度選罷法!"},{"start":4242.374,"end":4242.395,"text":"案。"},{"start":6388.758,"end":6388.779,"text":"案。"},{"start":13392.157,"end":13392.178,"text":"案。"},{"start":18093.451,"end":18093.471,"text":"案。"},{"start":19406.028,"end":19406.048,"text":"案。"},{"start":26297.517,"end":26297.537,"text":"案。"},{"start":27083.399,"end":27083.42,"text":"案。"},{"start":28288.195,"end":28288.216,"text":"案。"}]}},{"id":"157261","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157261","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eabf4ce166b2d3a573015c44cfb2338852019764a0ef6fec39b05577de5086729bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"16:34:44 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我們有請部長跟任總"},{"start":24.07,"end":25.171,"text":"我不敢有期許"},{"start":53.444,"end":55.186,"text":"我希望部長可以交接給未來的部長也就是說這次我們發現了就是"},{"start":82.028,"end":95.676,"text":"很多員工說他們有申訴但是在機制上面在布裡面卻完全看不到這是一個申訴機制到底暢不暢通或是有沒有被掩蓋的事實這個可能要做個清查第二個部分是說我們在調資料的時候我們有發現說"},{"start":98.069,"end":98.089,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":122.964,"end":137.523,"text":"好我想因為其實昨天任總也就做了一個回應那這段回應我覺得我簡單來說就是我要給你緣額請你們自己檢討你們自己的人力但是我必須要跟任總來做個說明這件事情"},{"start":141.594,"end":156.684,"text":"這個員工他本身就是處理資訊系統的人所以導致他的壓力過大不得不選上青春這一圖所以你今天告訴他說請你們檢查業務量的分配和考慮使用科技的方式我想這是文不對題沒有針對到這件事情的回應"},{"start":157.705,"end":165.833,"text":"那我想這件事情我們應該如何務實的來檢討根據公務人員服務法第12條第3項是這樣子寫的每天不能夠超過12個小時各機關為推動業務需要"},{"start":170.819,"end":189.041,"text":"每日不得超過12個小時延長辦公時數每月不得超過60小時但為了搶救重大災害處理緊急或重大突發事件的話可以延長這樣子所以這名公務員看他10月份的工作時數的話每天大約7點就到了那到下午"},{"start":189.482,"end":189.823,"text":"你認為這個問題出現在哪裡?"},{"start":205.99,"end":226.817,"text":"跟委員報告就是說基本上公務人員打打假卡其實是不允許的啦對但是為什麼會為什麼因為我想這件事情不是只有這個機關有很多的公務員都跟我們反映有類似的情形那你覺得原因是什麼那因為保障法已經有明定就是說你公務人員加班要經主管指派"},{"start":228.072,"end":231.915,"text":"我覺得這個回答其實是完全沒有了解基層的現況"},{"start":256.656,"end":283.946,"text":"非常非常狀況外的一個回答因為為什麼今天他們要這麼要去做這個打假卡加班的這件事情呢你們不要說你們不知情因為每次跟你們討論要不要增加員額的時候你們的反應都是要機關自行的去盤點閒置的人力或者直接說主計總處沒有錢然後這些機關就只好這樣日復一日的繼續下去待不下去的人可能就趕快的離職掉去新的單位那或者是說"},{"start":284.966,"end":288.248,"text":"對於同仁如果真的有加班試試該給加班補休的或加班費這個機關就是要依規定來辦理"},{"start":310.202,"end":310.662,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16289","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16289","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcbae2c6269a10f1bf99e01fa654b13793b104c5adbfed68f7c7647cb39130c1db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管（不含審計部及所屬）收支部分。\n【僅進行詢答；預算提案於11月25日中午12時截止收件】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-20T08:30:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T11:11:00+08:00","duration":9631,"影片長度":"02:40:31","委員發言時間":"08:30:29 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nd":2340.391,"text":"叫去年度增加了965萬其中一部分就是我剛剛所報告的在參加Apple年會的750萬第三個是調查巡查業務編列了1836萬比去年度增加了72萬第四個是財產申報業務編列了795萬這個比去年度減少了14萬"},{"start":2349.119,"end":2375.624,"text":"第5個是國家人權業務編列編列了1億1825萬6千元這個比去年度減少了236萬那第6個部分是一般建築備用因為監察院是一個國定股基所以我們分年分段慢慢進行維修整治那在維修的時候也同時更換這個所謂的空調系統跟其他相關的以達到節約能源的效果"},{"start":2376.624,"end":2402.235,"text":"這個部分編列了4,049萬比去年度減少了583萬那第7個部分是第一預備金這個編列302萬跟去年度是一樣的那有關113年的執行請請稅入的部分我們目前的執行率是81%那這個部分我們跟行政執行署密切的配合我們也希望能夠再往上衝一點那稅出的部分我們目前執行率是91%預期應該會超過這個數字"},{"start":2406.016,"end":2433.646,"text":"那在其他的部分在這個澄清調查彈劾糾舉的部分我們今年書狀的收受總共12499件那現在到10月為止提出的報告是227案那其中彈劾案18案彈劾人數是28人那糾正是81案那其他的調查報告是194案那巡查業務中央巡查27次地方巡查20次"},{"start":2435.226,"end":2447.373,"text":"有關陽光事法的宣導今年特別重視在所謂的利沖的部分確實有很多的案子被查到有違反利沖的部分我們今年自己辦了105場還有5場的宣導受邀報告利沖或是財產申報的部分總共有345場"},{"start":2457.498,"end":2484.088,"text":"在國際交流的部分今年參加了IOI這4年一次的會議這是國際監察主持同時也拜訪了澳洲跟荷蘭澳地利跟荷蘭的這個人權機構也跟他們的國會進行討論那有關人權業務的部分人權委員會自從在2020年8月成立以後我們摸索了兩年多成立了定下了中程計畫那現在依中程計畫在走"},{"start":2484.628,"end":2512.116,"text":"我們完成了5個獨立評估報告的評估意見另外還有10個專案報告那今年最特別的其中一個報告就是有關空服員女性穿著裙子的這個問題那現在已經我們希望沒有歧視的問題那也建議我們希望這個航空公司能夠讓空服員方便為主那現在已經有航空公司答應這樣做"},{"start":2513.556,"end":2535.045,"text":"另外人權委員會參加憲法法庭16次所以結語的部分我跟大家報告就是希望我們監察院114年的編列情形我們會積極繼續捍衛監察院的職權推動保障人權為公益把關請求各位委員能夠順利的審查我們的預算以上報告謝謝好謝謝那基本報告完畢"},{"start":2542.236,"end":2562.986,"text":"相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請第一位登記發言黃國昌委員進行發言"},{"start":2573.02,"end":2594.046,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請祕書長好,麻煩祕書長黃委員好祕書長好我今年3月的時候第一次質詢的時候我請教那個無償收受我們的吸金犯政治獻金的陳歐破我們依照政治獻金法開罰了沒有"},{"start":2596.078,"end":2623.019,"text":"這個部分現在因為司法偵查中所以我們暫停所以現在還在偵查當中嗎那我們依照政治獻金法我們裁罰的時效有多久五年五年嗎對這五年會因為司法偵查當中而停止計算嗎應該不會應該不會嗎對所以監察院打算等多久我們如果偵查超過五年以上就算了如果司法偵查結束我們就恢復偵查是那現在就變成的是說司法偵查有上線嗎時間"},{"start":2625.171,"end":2646.751,"text":"司法偵查時間沒上線嘛有可能三年嘛有可能五年嘛所以我們先確立一個原則啦這個是對事不對的從制度上面來講第一個如果有司法偵查的話有關於政治陷阱的採訪這個本來就不能對人啦只有政治陷阱不能對人啦可以請你聽我把問題說完嗎第一個是"},{"start":2649.654,"end":2668.306,"text":"就有關於政治獻金裁罰案件是不是有在司法偵查當中監察院這邊就會先停止看司法偵查的結果再決定要有什麼後續作為對這是根據監察法施行細則27條是還不是是我們通常會停止所以所有的案件都是這樣處理嗎對好第二個"},{"start":2669.307,"end":2684.181,"text":"但是我們在法律的制度上面必須要先思考一個問題如果司法偵查超過5年使得整個裁罰的時效都過去的話那怎麼辦我們會先釐清彼此的對價關係那如果有的話我們這個部分我們會來討論要討論什麼"},{"start":2687.003,"end":2703.877,"text":"因為你剛剛第一個原則嘛第一個原則就是司法偵查政治陷阱這個不能動嘛要等到他結束嘛那司法偵查有可能超過5年剛剛我們也討論過這件事了嘛那因為司法偵查超過5年的時效接下來要怎麼辦這是我的問題"},{"start":2705.663,"end":2726.221,"text":"所以我跟黃委員確定一下就是你認為說司法偵查如果超過5年會超過我們的5年期效對不對那我們通常我們會先討論說第一個他有沒有對家關係那第二個就是如果他不起訴的話我們就會繼續偵查沒有啊就變成的是如果不起訴結果就出來了嘛這個這麼簡單的問題你可以繞這麼久喔我現在告訴你就重新起算嘛"},{"start":2730.865,"end":2736.496,"text":"重新洗算對從什麼時候開始重新洗算我請我們處長跟你回答好不好來請處長"},{"start":2738.339,"end":2740.481,"text":"所以你的意思是說現在我們就有關於5年的時效"},{"start":2766.5,"end":2781.046,"text":"對是從判決確定以後或是不起訴確定以後起算嗎無罪確定後因為如果說他不是啊你不用無罪確定啊你不起訴確定不是也一樣嗎因為他如果確定是有罪的話那就不是政治陷阱請你聽問題好不好"},{"start":2781.966,"end":2809.339,"text":"你剛講無罪確定我說不請訴確定那不是一樣嗎是所以你的意思是說那五年的時效從判決確定或者是不請訴確定開始算對在之前的通通都不算就是不會就是中斷我可以從我的時效不會因為這樣而受到你那個時效中斷的事由是規定在哪裡行政法法26條行政法法26條你會等到不請訴確定或是無罪確定才開始起算這五年嗎對好很好來請秘書長"},{"start":2812.065,"end":2838.099,"text":"下一個問題這對監察院的預算大家其實都很關心出國的旅費年年攀升從我們過去這幾年看得出來到了今年大概1300萬了祕書長剛剛的確是有說明那前面之前有引發軒然大波去日本考察黑熊的保育他的意義在哪裡我也看到了監察院有發了一個"},{"start":2840.76,"end":2863.428,"text":"我們有一個新聞稿有新聞稿做回應說近年調查案件不少與自然保育有關係 32案還有原住民文化再加起來32案那這兩個加起來在你們所有調查案件的比例有多高比例算不低了因為我們調查的案件類型非常多來我們來看一下立法院預算中心是怎麼講的"},{"start":2864.568,"end":2883.23,"text":"立法院預算中心說有關於動物原住民族文化保存權益保障監察院他所提出來的報告占同時期的報告比例偏低只占1.2%所以其重大性是否足以列為優先考察事項有待審酌"},{"start":2884.451,"end":2896.241,"text":"來兩個部分跟方委員報告第一個部分這個是職員出國的部分題目是由職員自己選定第二個部分就是用這樣的數字來比較我認為有欠公允那怎麼樣的數字來比較你覺得認為好剛剛你說"},{"start":2899.281,"end":2924.424,"text":"比例不低嘛!立法院預算中心算出來是比例佔1.2%嘛!我們先確認一件事情啦!立法院預算中心的比例有沒有算錯?因為我們調查的案件非常多嘛!是!對!他這裡是從103年開始算起!是!32案不是從103年開始算起!是!所以你覺得他的計算基準不公平嗎?對!那你覺得他計算基準要怎麼算才公平?"},{"start":2925.104,"end":2951.002,"text":"我跟黃委員報告我的意思是說我們的職員認為說這個東西因為在近年來有32案兩個議題加起來有32案他們認為有討論的必要所以他們選定這個題目我們剛剛在談比例嘛阿你現在在談數字嘛那我們現在到底要談比例還是要談數字剛剛你說比例不低嘛所以我就說按照你的計算基準那個比例佔多少至少年度要一樣嘛"},{"start":2951.542,"end":2955.527,"text":"所以按照你們的計算比例是多少?所以按照你計算的比例應該有多少?"},{"start":2968.003,"end":2992.922,"text":"這個我們還要回去查一下沒關係你查完了以後順便回覆好不好好我們順便回覆答你們在想所以今年為例考察的主題就是日本的法官與懲戒制度對你們在為明年的預算捍衛的時候就討論今年你們派人到日本考察每年都不一樣是考察日本的法官跟懲戒制度來監察院去日本考察法官"},{"start":2994.165,"end":3021.757,"text":"彈劾及懲戒制度這個報告我念完了請問彈劾以後對於我們國家的制度具體的啟示考察的意義在哪裡可不可以說明一下這個報告我全部都看完了是 這個部分我們也在全院我們同仁有拿出來報告這個部分我們最主要認為它有差別性也有相同性差別性跟相同性就是彼此之間的制度不一樣"},{"start":3022.597,"end":3022.837,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":3047.338,"end":3060.385,"text":"那個今年我們去日本考察其實是最主要是因為現判111年的這我知道啦我時間有限我沒有時間提你從頭報告到尾但我可以負責任的跟你講"},{"start":3061.55,"end":3090.071,"text":"我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了拜讀完了以後我看你們去日本東京去了五天嘛第一天最後一天扣掉有三天第三天的時候有跑去處理他們有關於彈劾的制度那沒有關係旅程大家都很疲憊到了第一天要休息一下最後也可能要休息一下這個我都理解我的問題很具體啊"},{"start":3091.263,"end":3108.699,"text":"你們拿今年的報告來幫明年的報告辯護嘛要跟全體的納稅人說這個錢啊花的有道理這個錢花的有價值嘛那我當然要負責任的審查預算那我就要去拜讀啊你從這個報告裡面去了日本一趟回來"},{"start":3109.84,"end":3128.05,"text":"對我國的彈劾制度對我國法官的懲戒制度到底產生了什麼樣的釋說釋說是日文常用的啦通常一般我們在講的是啟示嘛對我國國家制度的改革從你這次考察以後的心得具體的講講兩點就好是"},{"start":3130.451,"end":3156.29,"text":"第一就是我要說明一下說我們有去觀察東京都跟他的中央的國家的中央的機關的公務員的懲處的部分也有考察到懲處就是這包括他的人事院跟東京都的部分另外有關於法官的部分因為他的案件非常非常少總共76年才10案那我們就可以觀察出來說第一就是"},{"start":3156.63,"end":3157.831,"text":"不好意思喔 處長先請你等一下我剛剛很耐心的"},{"start":3184.298,"end":3202.783,"text":"在我有限的質詢的時間當中讓你充分發揮讓你充分發揮告訴全體國人我們這次去考察對我國制度的啟示跟勢說是什麼剛剛你有沒有把這個核心的問題做說明我相信我相信"},{"start":3204.542,"end":3233.447,"text":"所有透過現在的直播在看到的公民大家心裡都有一把尺我不做評價我心裡有我心裡的評價每一個看完你說明的人大家心裡都可以有評價來接下來請秘書長2009年我們立法院的總召柯建民跟我們現在已經成為總統的賴清德說監委出國巡查假查案曾光光要求三預算"},{"start":3234.824,"end":3261.477,"text":"我看到那個時候我們的柯建民跟賴清德這樣的提案看了非常的感動所以我就要接下去來看因為有時候我看你們的預算書那個預算書的編列真的蠻粗的啦真的蠻粗的是不是符合預算書編列的原則我們等一下馬上會處理到但我只是想具體的請教具體的請教2023年10月陳菊率團赴義大利訪查花了多少錢"},{"start":3263.916,"end":3265.717,"text":"10月現在沒有數字沒有關係因為這個問題可能秘書長沒有準備到我們詢答要公平可不可以書面一個禮拜之內回覆可以喔拜託花了多少錢從哪一個預算向下支出的請用書面回覆請用書面回覆可以嗎"},{"start":3294.076,"end":3307.808,"text":"因為啊率了這一大團去到底用預算書的哪一個向下支出的啊我負責任的從2023年的預算書啊你們編列的計畫院長的出遊我一樣一樣看沒有關係啦對對對別人是出遊但陳菊絕對不會出遊啦我們一樣一樣我們一樣一樣"},{"start":3319.192,"end":3319.592,"text":"委員長率領了4個"},{"start":3340.249,"end":3366.528,"text":"檢察委員還率領了五位隨行的同仁這個考察團算是大的啦這麼大的考察團回來了以後我看到這個心得跟建議只有一頁我看了其實覺得有點驚訝但沒有關係我也沒有要秘書長評價我今天是利用質詢的時間把所有的資訊攤出來所有的公民"},{"start":3367.449,"end":3385.615,"text":"都可以到監察院的網站上面去看監察院所交出來的報告他的內容他所花的錢是不是值得這個錢我相信大家心裡會有一把刺接下來2024年5月陳菊到奧地利集合然花了多少錢"},{"start":3387.639,"end":3404.893,"text":"這個應該就比較新了 這你錢你應該知道嘛那我跟黃元報告去荷蘭的部分是因為今年IOI的年會在荷蘭瞭解剛剛你報告的時候已經說了嘛奧地利的部分是因為IOI的總部在奧地利是是是 這個你剛剛都說明了所以總共花了多少錢所以總共花了多少錢這個部分詳細的數字兩百多萬兩百多多少"},{"start":3415.55,"end":3439.357,"text":"兩百二左右兩百二十萬嘛從哪一個預算科目下支出的參加國際會議相關事項來來來我現在喔把你們今年齁今年的預算今年的預算是去年審的嘛對二零二四年的預算表出來了嘛是來我把它列出來了來跟大家講一下這個錢從哪裡支的來我請我們王主委可以可以來請嘿"},{"start":3440.828,"end":3443.43,"text":"來來來 你看我現在給你的預算書 有在上面嗎 有在第幾頁 定期會議請您看右邊 定期會議參加國際監察組織會議 是的 指的是這個向下嗎 對 全部都是這個向下支的"},{"start":3465.509,"end":3482.947,"text":"因為我們還有去前往相關的人權相關的人權的單位所以除了這個向下還有哪一個向下還有人權的部分經費有來支應什麼叫人權的部分經費因為有關這一次的所以你是從其他的預算科目雲芝過來是不是"},{"start":3484.619,"end":3498.023,"text":"我跟黃委員報告齁這次去有兩個目的第一個參加這個會議第二個對人權的部分所以人權的部分我們也有編預算除了這個定期會議的向下以外對我就是要回答我就是要回答黃委員的問題兩個預算一個就是這一項預算另外一個是人權相關的編列的預算人權相關編列的預算在哪裡因為我要審預算嘛我要負責任的隊嘛"},{"start":3514.13,"end":3530.301,"text":"我要負責的對從哪一個向下支的人權的訪視考察部分編了400萬人權的訪視考察對人權訪視考察播了多少錢來支應這一次的國外訪查60萬播了60萬過來嘛這個是去奧地利嘛這個是去荷蘭嘛"},{"start":3541.738,"end":3569.693,"text":"我們出國巡查最後的結論跟成果我的態度一樣啦我邀請所有的公民上去看監察院的報告看完了這個報告以後再跟大家講覺得這個錢值得或不值得監察院有監察院的說法秘書長你剛也充分辯護了我相信大家都聽得到啦來接下來今年的花200萬到國外進行專案式訪視調查要去哪裡"},{"start":3572.984,"end":3598.425,"text":"我們要審預算我沒辦法這樣抽象的審啊你說你們要到國外進行專案式訪視調查要兩百萬嘛去哪裡今年還沒有規劃今年還沒有規劃114年的部分我們通常這個部分是看哪一個國邀請像今年度剛去完回來就是菲律賓那明年度我們現在還不確定所以你們明年這兩百萬要去哪裡你們不知道嗎我們目前還沒有確定目前還沒有確定"},{"start":3600.696,"end":3624.119,"text":"復國外專案性的訪視調查為什麼沒有納入派員出國計畫預算類別為什麼沒有我們都編列在考察的項目阿就是從一個項目沒有沒有沒有來來來來來來請你按照問題回答不要在那邊自說自話來看一下復國外進行專案性的訪視調查我的問題很具體喔"},{"start":3625.862,"end":3637.036,"text":"理論上法規上要納入派員出國計畫的預算類別表但你們卻沒有把它納進來藏在別的地方我的問題來了為什麼沒有納入"},{"start":3638.508,"end":3656.021,"text":"根據主計總署的編列手冊規定考察、視察、訪問、開會、談判、進修、研究、實習這八類是編在出國會議要計劃的那這兩百萬是沒有計劃的就是我剛才談過有國家的邀約這個我們就會參與所以沒有辦法在編列裡面剛剛你說主計總署114年度總預算編制作業手冊來看一下"},{"start":3664.079,"end":3692.238,"text":"各機關派員出國計劃預算類別表就是我剛講的那個表是他裡面要放什麼東西來看一下填表說明出國執行其他公務出國執行其他公務也要編進去啊怎麼沒有按照主計總處給你們編制預算的表編進去所以我剛已經唸給黃委員聽了就是這八項要列入嘛那沒有辦法在這八項來來來請你看一下填表說明啦"},{"start":3693.243,"end":3715.29,"text":"各機關派員出國．屬於下列事項要填列本表．加一秉定物．物的部分出國執行其他公務來我們再往回看我們再往回看來你復國外進行專案性訪視調查．屬不屬於這裡所講的出國執行其他公務"},{"start":3716.875,"end":3723.78,"text":"防事調查不是出國執行其他公務這不是出去執行公務那就是出去執行私務嗎"},{"start":3725.768,"end":3748.675,"text":"出去當然是公務阿,我們怕在其他項目阿所以問題就來了嘛,來再看一下各機關派員出國計算計劃預算類別表編制的手冊,寫的很清楚出國執行其他公務要編進去我剛就一張一張帶你們看就沒有在裡面嘛你們把它藏在其他的地方塞在這裡嘛"},{"start":3749.575,"end":3774.996,"text":"在這裡所以我才具體的問你第一個問題要去哪裡你又說不出來現在還沒有確定我有說錯嗎來我跟黃委員報告齁因為一開始人權的部分人權委員會的部分這個部分就不屬於你剛提供那個表來來來先停一下所以齁人權委員會預算的編列比較特殊啦人權委員會要出國的不用把它編制在復國外復國外"},{"start":3780.046,"end":3797.307,"text":"派員出國計劃預算類別表你的意思是這樣嗎沒有沒有我的意思我剛說明很清楚這我們依照主帝總組114年的規定另外沒有辦法列入這八項的就是其他項目我的問題才夠清楚啦這八項我再給你看嘛"},{"start":3798.43,"end":3806.46,"text":"各機關派員出國計劃預算類別表上面不是有出國執行其他公務嗎?這是其他國家邀約所以我們沒有辦法...這是其他事項"},{"start":3814.409,"end":3836.294,"text":"如果其他國家邀約其他國家出權預算書沒有編我就不會問你這個事嘛明明就編在預算書裡面嘛所以其他國家邀約我們國家出權就不用編在裡面喔他們也有來啊他們也有來啊所以是互相交流人權交流是非常重要的事情我沒有說人權交流不重要但我的問題是什麼我為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡"},{"start":3839.781,"end":3857.428,"text":"為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡原來計劃性的在計劃性的我們就編在總表裡非計劃性的就是這兩百萬來再看一下出國執行其他公務要不要編在裡面我就問你這件事嘛現在喔為什麼主計總署在編列這個的時候"},{"start":3859.397,"end":3875.333,"text":"他要去定這個原則是因為什麼是因為只要有派人出國大家就會很關心要去哪裡做什麼事情一項一項把它列出來但我在看你的預算書的時候我看得很細啦我看得非常的細我看到這一項"},{"start":3876.374,"end":3899.079,"text":"沒有所以我才覺得很呼吁嘛那我今天也具體的問你嘛你們是先框錢嘛說要赴國外進行專案式的訪視調查需要200萬嘛所以我今天請教你嘛請教你說這200萬要去哪裡來黃委員如果可以回到前面的您的powerpoint裡面齁我可以跟您說明來來前面第16大項裡面你要看哪一張"},{"start":3907.489,"end":3930.744,"text":"我請人權會執行秘書跟你講黃委員跟您報告一下那個先問我先問一下剛秘書長不知道但我覺得你可能會知道這200萬要去哪裡因為你是人權會的執行秘書嗎報告黃委員因為我們人權會的一些相關的方式必須要預案那所以就是要看明年有什麼專案性的需要"},{"start":3931.625,"end":3947.861,"text":"所以現在還不知道明年有什麼專案性的需要嗎?不好意思喔再請您等一下我只要跟你確定一件事情所以到此時此刻還不知道明年會有什麼預案要花這200萬對不對?"},{"start":3949.342,"end":3977.173,"text":"其實我們大概會有一個方向但是什麼樣的方向跟大家說明一下我們目前的方向是有可能會規劃去亞太這個區域的亞太這個區域的哪一個國家因為我們現在可能比較不方便還沒有很明確的跟對方談判這是機密外交是不是這不算機密外交但是因為我們還沒有很跟對方確認所以是不是讓我們確認以後然後後續跟您這邊再做說明"},{"start":3978.193,"end":3998.825,"text":"這樣子啦我不要占其他委員的時間今天我問的問題我都歡迎秘書長或者是監察院的同仁用書面回覆那我也相信監察院的同仁可以了解給我們的資訊又充足我們到時候在審預算的時候支持監察院預算的可能性"},{"start":3999.545,"end":4026.935,"text":"就會越高我跟會議員報告包括您剛剛提到2023年義大利的部分還有這個明年度就是114年度這個兩百萬我們目前的計畫為什麼這樣編我會提供書面說明來就請書面詳細因為我善意的跟秘書長講對我也善意的回答我們立法院在審預算的時候如果我覺得這個錢沒有必要或是我根本搞不清楚這個錢到底是要幹嘛的"},{"start":4028.26,"end":4055.715,"text":"我們站在國會幫人民看緊荷包的立場公帑不能隨便浪費這個是我們卓榮他院長的指示到時候再來進行審查我就是告訴黃委員我們會提出詳細的書面報告好那我們先由議事錄剛剛已經宣讀完畢沒有確定現在我們先確定議事錄請問各位委員就上次的會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":4057.108,"end":4058.309,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請李秘書長麻煩秘書長秘書長早"},{"start":4083.322,"end":4100.897,"text":"我們今天就監察院114年度的這個預算以及我們明年度所要推動的這個相關計畫來進行討論那我想對於監察院來說除了監察委員日常推動的這個政務和人權業務外每年也會編列預算來辦理考察"},{"start":4102.278,"end":4124.387,"text":"也有訪問跟開會等國際的交流相關的事務在推動當中在加強與世界各地的監察組織的交流合作也促進雙邊的良好互動關係尤其在明年度監察院再次要主辦澳紐及太平洋地區的監察史年會"},{"start":4125.487,"end":4127.508,"text":"應該是這個2011年還有2019年後我們第三度有機會由臺灣來主辦這場年會目前從這個預算書上面來看對於這個籌辦的"},{"start":4141.054,"end":4163.25,"text":"我們編列了750萬的經費來支應但是我們對這個活動的時間對象還有內容等具體的資訊還不是很清楚所以我想是不是就叫我們秘書長對我們明年所要辦的APPLE年會目前的規劃內容還有這個相關的這個可不可以比較詳細的來做一個說明一下"},{"start":4164.131,"end":4177.786,"text":"謝謝參議員我跟參議員做一個比較更清楚的一個說明Apple年會其實是整個國際監察組織就是所謂的IOI底下的一個區域就是我們參加的是澳紐太平洋地區的一個區域"},{"start":4179.227,"end":4203.902,"text":"這個區域是每年開年會的所以我們參加每年的年會Apple算是一個非常重要的那我們這一次又爭取到2025在台灣主辦所以這是繼2011、2019以後第三次在台灣主辦那預期我們現在規劃的時間是總共這個期程是三天那目前到底詳細的時間定在哪裡那或者是說相關的議題我們還在討論當中"},{"start":4206.664,"end":4214.151,"text":"那這個秘書長就等討論出來之後是不是可以給我一個詳細的這個內容好討論出來我們會給陳恆一個報告那相較於這個歷年來我們出國參加各國的這個監察組織的年會和研討會作為這個主辦國除了要對研討交流要讓與會的各國來賓能夠瞭解我國監察"},{"start":4230.547,"end":4253.56,"text":"的和人權的這個實踐那進一步能夠彰顯台灣在國際監察和人權組織當中所代表的一個重要性那我想再請教秘書長就是您認為應該要如何來展現我們在這個監察制度和人權發展上的成果才能夠充分發揮在這一次所舉辦的這個年會上並且發揮最大的效益"},{"start":4254.34,"end":4278.631,"text":"我跟陳委員報告因為這是國際監察組織底下的一個分區基本上在這一個類似每年的April年會裡面最重要的是彼此交流因為我們的制度跟其他人不太一樣我們有獨立的監察院其他國家不見得有我們也希望把我們監察院的特色告訴大家所以我們在討論的過程裡面有委員提到說例如陽光事法"},{"start":4279.151,"end":4294.209,"text":"陽光司法是監察院來負責執行那這個在其他國家裡面非常特殊而且曾經有其他國家請教我們這相關的問題所以也許這個會列為這一次討論的重點之一分享台灣的經驗"},{"start":4295.25,"end":4316.16,"text":"好,那如果我們參照前一次所舉辦的這個Apple年會的經驗除了規劃會議和研討會之外會後還會安排文化參訪的活動讓這個與會的各國貴賓能夠感受到臺灣之美例如我們上一次有安排去故宮還有去板橋的這個林家花園來參訪"},{"start":4317.882,"end":4327.562,"text":"是觀光客經常造訪的景點我想請教秘書長我們對於這一次的年會的安排我們會不會有類似的活動"},{"start":4328.311,"end":4352.825,"text":"我們會有參觀活動但是不一定是剛剛提到的地方我們希望跟監察院比較有關比如說監察院本身是一個古蹟另外比如說跟人權有關因為監察院同時也是國家人權委員會的所在所以跟人權有關的我們也許去看原住民地區或是看其他相關的部分不一定是剛剛提到的故宮或是其他地方"},{"start":4355.006,"end":4364.854,"text":"從媒體的報導當中我們也看到陳菊院長在今年5月前往荷蘭參加國際監察IOI年會的時候也誠摯邀請各國的會員能夠在明年的9月來台灣參加我們的年會"},{"start":4372.559,"end":4388.726,"text":"我們希望透過各種管道來擴大國際之間的交流同時也能夠精進我們監察和人權的業務有沒有可能我們監察院未來還有擴大國際活動參與和交流的一個空間"},{"start":4389.857,"end":4410.468,"text":"跟委員報告有我們另外除了這個IOI以外我們有參加一個FIO就是拉丁美洲的一個監察組織那今年非常特別今年是在巴拉圭舉行那今年由FIO的理事長正式提案把台灣列為正式會員所以從今年開始我們就是正式會員"},{"start":4411.508,"end":4432.97,"text":"所以這個部分也是跟拉丁美洲有關監察相關制度的一個交流這個國際交流是非常重要的那這個也是今年的一個重大成就好那因為近年來我們監察院在國際監察組織的這種經營過程當中付出了相當多的這個努力而且能夠增加台灣在國際上的這個能見度"},{"start":4434.792,"end":4456.985,"text":"應該我們也要不分黨派來給予鼓勵和相關的資源我也請我們監察院能夠慎重來辦理我們監察10年會也期待能夠達到所預期的一個效益和一個目標我們會來努力也希望各位委員不分黨派都能夠支持國際外交是非常重要的"},{"start":4460.226,"end":4485.194,"text":"針對剛剛講的相關的人權交流議題那會跟我接下來要討論的一個這個部分有一點類相關就是人權會編列超過這個1000萬的預算在辦理人權教材製作和教育推廣的工作而因為這個人權議題相當的廣泛包含國際公約規範的這個權力保障還有反歧視等等"},{"start":4485.754,"end":4504.495,"text":"但是從過去的調查資料當中得知國人對於五大人權公約的聽聞程度未達三成人權會作為人權工作專責的機關也期待我們能夠真正來落實人權教育的普及"},{"start":4505.186,"end":4532.038,"text":"我們也看到過去監察院致力於推動發行外文的刊物以利這個國際間的交流使用包括剛剛我們所講的要辦理這個APPLE年會的規劃當中也涵蓋了這個人權議題的相關的交流問題我想再請教我們人權會我們每年所開發的這種人權的教材大概有哪些推廣的形式"},{"start":4533.834,"end":4554.401,"text":"我跟委員簡單報告兩個很快第一個部分我們有外文的包括英文跟西班牙文的最主要就是我們剛剛參加IOI跟這個FEEL就是拉丁美洲的國家所以有英文跟西班牙文那另外在人權教材推廣我們跟教育部國家國教院合作訂了14個核心課程14個網路課程3個podcast的節目還有兩個參訪過程所有的人權教育的教材"},{"start":4563.804,"end":4591.566,"text":"跟其他部會合作也包括跟考試院的保訓會那另外我們現在正在做的是跟內政部警政署他們如何執行他們業務時候同時注意到人權我們正在編一個手冊這個就是監察院希望把人權的概念告訴大家那的確國人對人權相關的議題是比較陌生的這個也是我們為什麼要盡力來推廣的一個原因好 那我想請教秘書長我們剛剛講的這些文宣還有這些教材"},{"start":4592.147,"end":4597.984,"text":"我們可以透過什麼管道來取得如果委員需要的話我們會提供給委員好"},{"start":4600.09,"end":4619.663,"text":"網站也有啦我們的網站都有那在這個人權議題和這個人權發展的案例當中和公部門執行業務也有相關的這個連帶的關係所以目前也已經將人權課程的這個教材納入基礎訓練和晉升官的這個相關的訓練這是我們剛剛講跟保訓會合作保訓會負責訓練"},{"start":4625.746,"end":4651.196,"text":"尤其公部門要擴大引用AI使用的機會科技與人權之間的探討會更加的重要我還是請教有關我們人權教育未來是否會擴大辦理到公部門訓練和研討的規劃當中而人權會和人事總署還有考試院、國教院之間我們要如何來分工"},{"start":4652.197,"end":4673.116,"text":"兩個部分第一個部分就是跟國教院跟保訓會跟人事總署我們都有合作第二個部分就是對這樣的人權教育的推廣我們相當重是特別干安委員提到的AI這兩年我們的重點就是AI對人權的潛在影響我們還委託師大來做相關的研究另外我們也辦了國際研討會"},{"start":4675.736,"end":4700.011,"text":"我們也從監察院所提供的相關書面報告當中看到為了落實人權教育的推廣需要將青年族群納入推廣的主體並且要鼓勵對於人權議題進行能夠多元思考我想再請教秘書長我們與大學合作辦理的青年人權教育賠利辦理的情形如何"},{"start":4700.931,"end":4729.25,"text":"我們目前跟11所大學有合作過就是青年的人權議題相關的討論除了討論以外還請青年來瞭解我們邊的人權教材他們的適用這個都有包括大學還包括高中職11所大學那高中職高中職是測試我們的人權教材他們的接受程度我希望說未來我們看能不能向下普及對我們會向下特別大學的部分我們會更多的合作"},{"start":4730.951,"end":4752.618,"text":"最後我想請教的部分就是有關這個監察院近年來所提出的調查報告的這個案件類型由於國家人權委員會對於這個酷刑或是侵害人權還有歧視案件有關的這個調查責任從這個預算中心整理的這個資料來看對於涉及人權保障的案件"},{"start":4753.118,"end":4776.012,"text":"有下滑的情形我們從108年度的276件下滑到112年度的119件減少一半以上那其中攸關弱勢族群的居住權還有社會保障權等案件的數量也相對的偏低那我想再請教秘書長到底是什麼原因造成這樣的一個趨勢"},{"start":4777.453,"end":4801.863,"text":"我跟陳委員做一個說明兩個就八個字可以說明第一個是業務轉移第二個是標準不同業務轉移的意思就是我們20208月我們成立國家人權委員會以後很多的人權相關議題是移到人權委員會來那第二個部分就是這個標準不同什麼意思就是我們在人權會成立以後我們曾經在全院的談話會討論過就是"},{"start":4803.664,"end":4823.417,"text":"我們必須依照人權會所有對人權的界定跟標準才能列為人權案件過去說只要跟人權搭上邊都列為人權案件這個不行了現在已經調整了所以看到的好像是數字減少但是純粹從案件的數字這個是不標準的因為"},{"start":4824.398,"end":4833.511,"text":"業務轉移因為案件這個標準不同所以其實你看到的是減少但是實際上在人權委員會那邊的案件是非常大量的成長的"},{"start":4834.465,"end":4861.741,"text":"好,那我們也期待,期待我們人權會能夠將公約規範還有人權的議題深入到大眾的日常生活當中那也透過我們人權會的努力讓國人的人權意識能夠向上提升那相關的概念也能夠更加的普及共同來推動人權的理念也維護我們台灣整體人權的進步與保障這是我們努力的方向謝謝,謝謝秘書長"},{"start":4866.084,"end":4888.899,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來麻煩羅志強委員代理主席有請吳宗憲委員謝謝我們麻煩秘書長"},{"start":4895.378,"end":4895.539,"text":"有請秘書長"},{"start":4898.815,"end":4925.367,"text":"委員好秘書長早安請問秘書長我想秘書長現在擔任監察院的秘書長那一定很清楚監察院的職權是什麼嗎應該都非常的清楚那我想請問一下秘書長到底這個犯罪偵查決定被告要不要羈押或是對於被告要不要實施這個科技監控這個是不是監察委員的工作"},{"start":4926.472,"end":4952.934,"text":"這個不是確定不是嘛這個是司法院的工作司法院跟檢察法官跟檢察官的工作也不是司法院的工作嘛好那這個沒有錯這邏輯是完全正確但是呢監察院在11月7號的新聞稿有提到說他要而且他是明確就個案說台南地檢署對於被告涉嫌犯罪嫌疑重大有串證滅證通知於為何為像"},{"start":4955.396,"end":4978.637,"text":"台南地院申請科技監控有無重放等重大疏失還有台南地院有無延遲開庭導致被告逃亡然後這個東西不是就這個東西監察委員可以查嗎是兩個部分我跟吳委員報告第一個部分監察委員獨立行使職權所以委員要查什麼我們沒辦法干涉那第二個這個案子查的是防逃機制"},{"start":4979.578,"end":5003.275,"text":"防逃機制有關防逃機制我們查過7個案什麼叫防逃機制就是在這個過程當中怨檢有沒有疏失造成人辦跑掉那所以這個就是防逃機制包括過去的朱國榮這一次的陳取譽都是防逃機制所以監察委員調查是這一個部分好那個市長我跟你報告一件事情我跟你講一次非常的荒謬"},{"start":5007.037,"end":5034.97,"text":"從這件事情我們也可以看到我們這邊立委的水準以及非常多的民嘴側翼他們的特定立場我在11月4號的時候帶委員會去考察北檢有關偵查不公開的部分我們是就通案討論偵查不公開而且我們出發前以及到北檢之後都再三的說我們不討論個案我們也全程錄影避免被扣帽子那結果我們去看完北檢之後呢"},{"start":5036.798,"end":5056.595,"text":"檢察官我還請以前的同事看著檢察官論壇幾乎都是在抱怨北檢違反偵查不公開沒什麼人抱怨我們去去那個北檢去了解為什麼經常性的違反偵查不公開好結果呢我們這樣子去回來之後一堆"},{"start":5058.123,"end":5058.363,"text":"但我剛說的"},{"start":5083.923,"end":5110.906,"text":"檢察官論壇只有檢察官進得去的檢察官論壇沒什麼人批評我們幾乎都批評北檢檢察官有一個叫做建清檢改團體就是檢察官才能成立的團體好那這個團體也沒有批評我們就我們被瘋狂的說我們是介入個案結果監察院在11月7號發新聞稿是就台南地檢地院的個案他直接調查這個個案好"},{"start":5112.049,"end":5135.956,"text":"結果反而是檢察官起來抗議建清檢改直接發新聞稿抗議結果本委員會的無私藥委員、中家病委員都身影不見了還有一堆名嘴跟長期的側翼律師也都不見了所以兩相比較之下我為什麼提我們去北檢以及提監察院處理南檢這件事情"},{"start":5137.236,"end":5153.744,"text":"兩個非常明顯一個就不就個案就通案的去看長期為什麼北檢經常的違反偵查不公開結果被瘋狂的說我們介入個案結果監察院是直接點名要查哪一個案子"},{"start":5155.215,"end":5180.567,"text":"卻沒有任何一個人跑這些自稱在維護司法正義的律師律師民嘴以及本委員會的幾位委員卻都不見了我覺得這個非常的明顯然後我再跟您報告一件事情監察院自己的網站也寫得很清楚啊司法調查中的案子監察院不會介入那你剛剛說他今天要查的是一個什麼防逃機制"},{"start":5181.974,"end":5204.325,"text":"可是不是啊今天你是進去你點名個案欸你點名個案要去查他的東西欸那我再跟檢察跟那個秘書長報告一下因為秘書長你也是學法律你一定懂一個東西在台南的這個案子其實很明顯的一件事情就是他的問題是出在檢察官申請羈押"},{"start":5206.365,"end":5227.826,"text":"那檢察官怎麼申請其實這是檢察官的職權法官放不放人這個是法官的職權法官即便在這個案子他採的見解跟以往高院已經最高法院的法律見解不同這個我們也是尊重司法獨立審判所以我多次公開講南檢南院其實沒有違法上面的問題"},{"start":5230.097,"end":5230.117,"text":"拜託"},{"start":5251.582,"end":5277.736,"text":"秘書長 因為從上個會期到現在 我跟你討過很多次案子我真的覺得你不是像某些政務官是不講理的所以我可以接受你說監察委員獨立行使職權就像法院院長常搞不定法官一樣 這我都可以理解但是秘書長 是不是可以如同上個會期我跟秘書長您請教的高永誠在調查臺中地檢那個查詢問求案的時候"},{"start":5278.416,"end":5296.588,"text":"一樣的狀況嘛那個案子也造成漸進減改的反彈今天也是啊委員跟您報告您提的上個會期提的這個陳榮祥案我們後來也做了討論高委員也有在我們的院會裡面提出他的說明那他的說明是說其實懲戒法院認為確有為師只是還沒有到懲處的標準那這個我剛才說過了"},{"start":5301.972,"end":5311.53,"text":"就是這一案這個有關這個台言陳其域的這個事情我們委員有獨立行使職權的權利但是不是沒有委員沒有意見"},{"start":5312.659,"end":5329.038,"text":"我只能這樣說但是我跟你講就是說是這樣啦我們來提一個就是說您在去年預算會期的時候你有曾經有委員詢問過你監察權的事情我這邊說明一下你當時說的你說監察權是事後權"},{"start":5333.143,"end":5355.017,"text":"不是監察院追求的目標那監察院查的是公務員有無違法失職所以如果犯罪事實還沒有調查完就介入怕會掛一漏萬然後你還說監察院查的東西跟檢調單位不一樣監察院甚至要在檢調做完調查以後再介入所以監察院不追求時效性釐清相關事實才是重點"},{"start":5357.218,"end":5380.447,"text":"我到現在還是堅持這個原則這是監察法實行細則27條的相關規定但是這次委員做的完全不一樣啊委員獨立行使職權我沒有評論可是民主黨你真的不能夠給委員建議或什麼嗎所以我剛才提過了我們在委員裡面有大家有不同的意見有討論過那我作為幕僚長我不適合去評論委員你要不要這樣做"},{"start":5382.676,"end":5405.759,"text":"秘書長你在107年10月的時候107年10月你在質詢當時的監察院你也曾經講過一個東西你說案件怎麼調查跟監察院沒有關係法官做的爛也是司法院的問題跟偵查權無關你也批評監察委員不能不務正業所以從你以前的"},{"start":5406.823,"end":5424.341,"text":"立場因為我知道您剛有說你立場沒有變過那我也非常認同您的立場但是如果以您的立場再回過頭來看這一次監察某位特定的監察委員對於南檢南院為什麼不實施科技監控為什麼放人為什麼沒有申請我覺得這個部分"},{"start":5425.722,"end":5439.668,"text":"該位監察委員確實跟秘書長您的邏輯是不同的另外一個如果今天監察委員他要調查的是通案性的說法官在認為被告"},{"start":5440.779,"end":5467.956,"text":"沒有積壓必要而放他走的時候需不需要做電子繳聊等等的監控我覺得如果今天監察院是在處理這件事我想全國的法官檢察官不會有意見但是因為這一次的監察委員就是直接挑明了各案而且連日期什麼時候開庭哪一個被告怎麼樣都講了都全部都點出來那這個這個狀況下其實才會引起為什麼這一次的"},{"start":5468.957,"end":5492.444,"text":"建清檢改他們出來反彈還發新聞稿直接反彈所以我剛才會說比較我們當時去北檢做考察那在座的吳教委員當時也對我們的北檢考察有意見你比較我們去北檢的考察建清檢改沒有意見再去比較這次監察院去調查南檢南院反而造成建清檢改出來反彈其實兩個一比較之下"},{"start":5494.204,"end":5508.416,"text":"我只能就很遺憾的說這位特定的委員確實是已經介入個案的偵查啦我只能跟委員報告說我們委員獨立行止之權我作為幕僚長不會做任何評論但是我的原則一直沒有變"},{"start":5509.707,"end":5535.487,"text":"不是那秘書長那這樣是不是好像就有點放任委員獨立行使之前你想幹嘛就幹嘛獨立行使之前是憲法賦予的權責喔這個我們沒有辦法做任何的干涉喔但是事後我們會跟委員做討論這個我可以理解啦就像我剛剛跟您報告說其實法官獨立審判院長庭長常常搞不定這些法官這個我們也很常見啦很多檢察官也都不聽檢察長的話這個也很常見但是總是要"},{"start":5536.856,"end":5543.422,"text":"內部要有一些作為吧比如說因為很多委員他其實他並沒有相關的"},{"start":5545.136,"end":5573.508,"text":"．審查或審判的背景那我知道裡面也有檢察長出身的那是不是也可以請他去溝通一下其他委員然後能夠給他們一些建議而不是干涉就像吳委員去年提的這個陳中祥案我們也是在院會裡面有做討論嘛那高委員也做了說明嘛那所以這個部分我們尊重委員的獨立行使之權但是事後我們會有討論會有說明我想齁其實就是跟那個秘書長報告其實"},{"start":5575.25,"end":5592.346,"text":"不管立法院或者是誰有沒有介入個案其實在政客的嘴巴說出來只要跟他不同黨你全部叫介入個案你只要跟他同黨他就沒有聲音但是基層的檢察官建金減改協會我以前也是協會的議員"},{"start":5594.045,"end":5595.446,"text":"監察院的這個行為會反彈甚至公開的發表新聞稿我想"},{"start":5613.818,"end":5631.233,"text":"這個東西其實很明確了就是檢察官覺得自己的權利自己的獨立行使的職權以及受到侵害所以建議檢改協會他們建議檢改他們才會出來去發表這樣的言論所以我到這裡來我一直很不習慣的一點就是"},{"start":5632.307,"end":5645.71,"text":"政客跟車役永遠只有立場沒有是非他們講出來是胡扯胡說八道完全違反法律規定還可以講得頭頭是道我在這邊多次也經常性的看到這樣可是那些檢察官們基本上他們大致上都不會"},{"start":5646.61,"end":5664.236,"text":"所以在他們的眼中在檢察官在基層檢察官眼中就是是非對錯嘛你今天我們跳出來說北檢長期違反政法不公開你去檢察官論壇看各地檢常常在攻擊北檢為什麼要這樣違反政法不公開所以他們會有那個正義感會出來講話"},{"start":5666.378,"end":5680.869,"text":"我們今天去通案的調查他們就不會有意見可是當監察院這一次我覺得確實是引起他們的不滿所以這些基層檢察官才會出來那今天不管我是不是在幫基層檢察官講話我還是希望一個點就是"},{"start":5681.77,"end":5698.127,"text":"檢察院檢察權的行使還是不宜介入司法的個案但是就通案性的去了解比如說我剛說的到底一個被告申請羈押法官駁回檢察官的羈押的時候到底對於重大或者是"},{"start":5698.908,"end":5698.928,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":5718.354,"end":5745.589,"text":"很多政客或是側翼所講的講的天花亂墜人民不會不懂啦這些專業的檢察官法官不會不懂他們只是不敢講話我跟民主黨報告其實我很多以前的同事是這一段時間是非常不爽很多政府的一些作為只是他們在那個位置他不能出來講但他會一直跟我們抱怨甚至他們的立場本來就是很支持政府的在這段時間下來他們也開始會去動搖說到底"},{"start":5746.71,"end":5759.357,"text":"到底在做什麼所以我只是提出一個這樣子當然我也是很尊重秘書長您跟您的父親都是我非常尊重的對象我也能夠理解說監察委員獨立行使職權這個限制在那裡"},{"start":5763.072,"end":5773.722,"text":"所以我再提一個問題也是秘書長以前在當立委的時候一直提到說要廢除監察院問題其實我們先不要去講廢除監察院這個議題我只拿一個數據108年到112年彈劾成立的件數是我來念一下"},{"start":5780.148,"end":5796.088,"text":"18件、40件、16件、27件跟20件那到目前為止是今年到目前為止成立23件那我們一共有29個監委那一個人平均不到一件那這樣子是不是他的效能並沒有很好"},{"start":5798.05,"end":5826.471,"text":"彈劾的要件要很嚴謹因為彈劾會影響後續的發展所以彈劾的要件要非常嚴謹我們今年到現在是20幾件那彈劾的人數超過這個彈劾人數是28人所以這個部分我要特別跟吳委員報告就是我們現在對重大特殊案件的比例增加很多也就是說對大家社會關注的案件我們非常注意這件事情我們查得也非常嚴謹"},{"start":5827.412,"end":5855.632,"text":"是好那有一些老問題我想我就不因為時間的關係那最後我還是跟秘書長講一個就是說是不是可以去建議那一位調查南檢南院的那位監委不是強制他不是限制他就是說跟他道德勸說是不是可以撤回那個調查因為畢竟已經引起基層的法官檢察官不滿了好那再麻煩那個秘書長能夠就是您處理怎麼樣處理我都尊重我只是提一下這個議題好謝謝秘書長"},{"start":5876.787,"end":5878.188,"text":"我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":5887.506,"end":5888.726,"text":"其實整個監察院未來要何去何從"},{"start":5917.254,"end":5941.166,"text":"我們都知道很清楚要怎麼處理我們都提過案但是我們都是覺得說如果是一個根本之道其實要透過修憲的一個方式讓老百姓來真正來做一個決定的一個方式那你現在就是存在了他現在存在光去砍預算現在民眾黨那邊是認為說監察院是一個廢物院我們以前還是沒有說過這麼難聽我們以前說他盲腸"},{"start":5946.909,"end":5961.965,"text":"看來他會回歸到像三權分立的國家這樣子可是啦以現在機關在存在的話那預算如果像是民眾黨講的說要不然剩一公里就好你猜你們監察院的員工會怎麼樣的反應"},{"start":5966.143,"end":5976.849,"text":"這個部分會造成監察院所有相關的職權沒有辦法行使那這個...民主黨我的看法就跟你不一樣我如果是你監察院的委員跟我第一個想法就是YEAH!"},{"start":5976.849,"end":5977.149,"text":"痛死!"},{"start":5977.149,"end":5978.39,"text":"這事都不能做今年24明年25,25沒有碰到選舉年那26你就真的是很麻煩"},{"start":5986.354,"end":6000.524,"text":"你整個政治獻金法第4條的一個規定就是受理政治獻金的一個申報本來就是你們的職責那如果說到最後這個2022到20這是預測啦2025如果都一樣都延續這樣的一個方式的話那你認為會不會出很大的一個問題啊"},{"start":6009.997,"end":6036.66,"text":"一定會阿一定會阿 如果傷我們的預算造成我們沒法實際運作那當然會影響我們的權責 這個可能還涉及違憲的問題是 會涉及到違憲的問題喔大法官4-612就有講阿如果存一項阿你們有不然就很難過阿不然就很難過 大家唱歌阿其實大家立法院都覺得是在修理監察院 我覺得不是 這個就是在讓監察院變得很爽的一個單位阿"},{"start":6039.22,"end":6067.599,"text":"轉換個心情也是變成這樣可是這對嗎這就不對啊這個監察案就越來越離譜了但是我本席比較關心的就是說除了這個所謂的存費還有這次預算以外不管如何本席還是從幾個面向來看監察院他應該可以去發揮更積極的一個功能啊你像譬如說很多歐洲國家現在有納入了監察室的概念比如挪威去設立了兒童人權的監察室"},{"start":6069.02,"end":6097.231,"text":"他去專責保護兒童人權以便在兒童人權公約通過以後可以有效保障兒童的一個人權波蘭跟匈牙利他允許監察機關將調查獲得具體的建議直接去移送到法院裡面去那臺灣我們在2000年各界呼籲設立國家人權委員會當初是說到底要設在總統府啊行政院啊或者就監察院啊不一樣的意見那2020年以後通過監察院國家人權委員會的一個組織法"},{"start":6098.491,"end":6114.964,"text":"本席想就教的就是說以目前監察院的人權委員會是不是應該有更重要的貢獻來讓民眾來瞭解目前業務的一個狀況因為本席一直認為說人權委員會"},{"start":6119.265,"end":6135.827,"text":"與其是監察院現在被杯格說什麼廢物院什麼講的都難聽可是畢竟還沒有修憲之前反而是在整個人權委員會方面他應該可以有積極的貢獻我不曉得這部分秘書長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6136.327,"end":6152.992,"text":"這個部分確實如此我們也正努力在這樣做人權委員會成立到現在其實我們做過的事情相當多特別大家對人權委員會有很多的期待那我們的組織法第二條裡面規定了九項職權幾乎包山包海所有的人權都人權委員會要負責推動"},{"start":6155.432,"end":6182.202,"text":"這個部分所以我們到現在為止人權委員會有5個國家報告的獨立評估意見然後有10個專案的報告然後另外我們的案件有200多件那還有其他我們幾乎每年的活動都非常非常的多造成我們人權委員會的同仁非常的辛苦非常的累那現在也招不到人所以這個部分是我們一直在積極做的我們也希望人員能夠增加然後讓我們發揮更大的功能"},{"start":6182.842,"end":6197.877,"text":"本席一直認為說在監察院裡面人權委員會如果是整個按照整個組織反映他的功能去可以再去是進一步去發揮他的一個功能的話去可以更落實對整個人權實質上的一個保障為什麼這樣講"},{"start":6199.498,"end":6221.113,"text":"比如說在2000年期間2020年期間我就覺得非常可惜了2020年疫情期間那個時候疫情期間很多國家發布了有影響到人權的緊急命令比如說鎖國封城遷徙的自由檢疫隔離限制旅行自由這些等等甚至很多學校也去關閉了影響到學生的一個受教權"},{"start":6222.054,"end":6238.864,"text":"在國際上其實在比如說聯合國的國際人權委員會或者是經濟社會文化權利委員會或者說兒童權利委員會幾個單位裡面他們是立即的去發布了幾個緊急的一個指引"},{"start":6239.784,"end":6261.721,"text":"他們發布的指引要求各國在限制老百姓正當的權利的時候你要去明定確保國家一方面要求人民在居家隔離限制一定範圍的一個活動的時候你讓傳染病可以去得到一二指另一方面又不會去過度侵犯到人民的基本權"},{"start":6263.444,"end":6286.904,"text":"別的國家其實是這樣那我們這個部分我覺得比較可惜了我們當初啊當初啊我們在2020年啊比如說到2021年啊我們訪問我們臺灣人權委員會在新聞稿裡面去強調等疫情結束以後啊我們再來全面的檢討政府相關的防疫的一個作為以維護人權這一點我來看的話我相信秘書長一定特別有感沒搞"},{"start":6290.433,"end":6304.267,"text":"這個確實就不夠了你跟國際上來做比較的話我們人權委員會是不是你發揮的積極的然後去做一個引導作用更主動的"},{"start":6305.382,"end":6308.045,"text":"相較國際上這些人權組織來看的話我不曉得民主黨你的看法我非常認同莊委員的看法但是我必須說明一下2020年8月我們才正式成立在兵荒馬亂然後又碰到疫情"},{"start":6321.377,"end":6336.664,"text":"那幸虧就是我們的所謂衛福部提的這個防疫措施並沒有太大幅度的影響到我們的人權這個也是這個臺灣的防疫措施被世界各國所肯定的一個原因那當然未來我們可以扮演更積極的角色"},{"start":6337.705,"end":6338.986,"text":"本期一直很在意的就是說"},{"start":6363.226,"end":6368.091,"text":"2020年當然是人權委剛好剛成立那當然是說你說人權這個人手或者說經驗或者說我們整個成立之初剛好又碰到疫情那你很難去跟國際上這樣子運作長久的這些機構來做一個比較可是我就覺得最主要是那個觀念的問題了"},{"start":6384.548,"end":6387.15,"text":"監察院本來就一直強調事後的監督一直強調事後的一個監督他沒有去意識到你整個國家人權委員會其實你可以發揮更積極的一個作用人權就不是事後人權要主動積極完全同意"},{"start":6402.339,"end":6418.277,"text":"就是說變成說我們如果人權委員會一直強調在事後的一個監督的話而不是在第一時間去接軌其他國家的重要的聲明你說在防疫期間過度限縮人民基本權利的積極作為這個當初是真的有點可惜啦真的有點可惜啦所以因為我"},{"start":6419.518,"end":6445.125,"text":"我也非常清楚民主黨已經非常有一番當一個監察院的幕僚長可是這方面其實應該在人權委員會的部分不管是私底下或者說你們在討論之間真的是要形成這一些委員他自己本身要有一個積極面要有一個共識存在否則這真的太可惜了你說監察院說廢掉好不好廢掉很好啊"},{"start":6445.765,"end":6472.113,"text":"可是人權委員會這個部分這個我反而會覺得如果說你積極去做一個精進的話會變成監察院未來存廢之外走出的另外一條康莊大道我覺得這個對人權的一個保障對整個國家來看的話長遠的發展來看的話是非常積極又正面不管監察院存不存在人權委員會應該要存在而且應該是一個獨立機關"},{"start":6473.593,"end":6489.928,"text":"但是現在組織法裡面還不是一個完全獨立機關所以我們還會在我們的範圍內繼續的來進進我們的人權委員也非常非常的積極我倒覺得說這個部分今天特別提出來來做跟民主黨做這樣的一個"},{"start":6490.829,"end":6517.75,"text":"謝謝中委員的建議啦這個我完全同意啦我們會更積極一點這個部分就不涉及到說立法院對於監察院對於你們過去這個一些是不是有涉及到整個國會機關權責之間的一個重疊的一個問題人權的部分本來就是人權委員會你必須要主動跟積極而且去發揮它的功能好不好所以人權委員會的預算也拜託中委員多支持很合理啊我就是要跟你說這個轉給你支持謝謝"},{"start":6539.363,"end":6547.151,"text":"好下一位我們請吳委員謝謝有請李俊英秘書長"},{"start":6552.159,"end":6553.519,"text":"國民黨委員提案列案要成立一個針對經濟部部長郭志輝個人的調查委員會理由是說委員質疑他是不是有財產申報不實等等"},{"start":6579.804,"end":6603.135,"text":"但是郭部長非常清楚的說明他過去任職的公司的股權的傳承轉讓一切都攤在陽光下那因為財產申報跟您有關您對於立法院用這樣一個跟他行使法案權預算權毫不相干的調查委員會來針對部會首長個人私人的財務狀況這樣合宜嗎"},{"start":6609.272,"end":6623.774,"text":"跟委員報告兩個回應第一個有關這個郭志輝部長是不是有申報不實的部分根據我們的資料他是8月19號報來本院的目前報來本院並沒有昨天媒體講的那個部分沒有"},{"start":6624.175,"end":6640.473,"text":"郭志輝部長他包括他本人跟他的配偶都有申報而且從月還有還未上市的高益報的主要的股份都是在郭志輝部長手上他也有如實申報那第二個部分就是說如果成立所謂的調查委員會這個可能要考慮憲判9號的內容"},{"start":6646.339,"end":6657.206,"text":"現辦9號其實說得非常清楚如果立法院沒有證明說跟他行使職權有相關的關係的話他沒有辦法來成立調查委員會好 謝謝秘書長的說明跟我的想法也一致立委要進行調查的權利他必然是跟我們的核心權利領域相關的輔佐性的一個權利而不是要查就查包山包海"},{"start":6673.877,"end":6679.74,"text":"所以我也不了解在野黨的委員已經正式的列案了我們可能這週五的院會就會處理到了針對一個部會首長私人財務要去成立調查委員會我都認為畫錯重點搞錯方向如果對於個別的官員"},{"start":6692.785,"end":6701.954,"text":"有財產申報的質疑大可透過監察院去檢舉都可以那也謝謝您剛剛的說明郭部長8月份已經來登載申報他的財產8月19來好謝謝您的說明那我進入我今天就預算論預算我昨天也質詢了卓榮泰院長"},{"start":6715.347,"end":6741.442,"text":"我說台灣的財政融緊no longer但是財政災難coming soon這跟監察院大有關係下一頁三分鐘的財化法審查通過送出委員會6612億的中央財源就這樣要下放給地方中央可用的財源就大幅的縮減剩下4159億下一頁"},{"start":6745.393,"end":6772.151,"text":"我反對未修而修未快而快的才化法主要來自於他分配不正義他事權不同一他財政沒有紀律他配套完全沒有提出對於地制法公債法等等行政區劃法該檢視的法規沒有一併來檢視其實這當中財政沒有紀律就跟監察院的職權行使大有關係下一頁"},{"start":6773.826,"end":6801.074,"text":"所以說財政收支劃分法權限的劃分是支出劃分的基礎而支出的劃分又是收入劃分的前提不能只搶錢而不管事權要不要統一否則呢只有收入不討論支出那這步法就不叫財政收支劃分法它就變成財政收入劃分法了下一頁"},{"start":6802.094,"end":6825.46,"text":"跟監察院相關的部分我想就交於您喔您認為我個人認為啦如果這樣子的才化法被通過了事權沒有統一地方獲得了大把的銀子他也沒有去規定要用在哪裡財政紀律大出問題未來您監察院也許審計部會沒錢賺就這點來秘書長您怎麼看"},{"start":6830.286,"end":6838.335,"text":"其實監察院現在審計部 監察院跟審計部都非常忙那就地方的財政事實上根據審計法69條還有決算法21條另外根據我們監察院的監察巡迴監察辦法第二條"},{"start":6846.103,"end":6857.31,"text":"每年的決算都必須由審計部來審在各個縣市都會有所謂的審計室他會針對這個地方的財政到底有沒有妥適的運用來提出問題以112年度來講總共審計部提出了1760項有問題的地方提供給監察院然後我們監察院再從裡面選最嚴重的案子來"},{"start":6874.74,"end":6892.795,"text":"與以調查所以這個部分未來會不會有這樣的情形我過去以前也擔任過這個嘉義市的副市長所以我對這個非常清楚過去的縣市常常有這種挪用的情況比如說公益彩券就是普通的常常常見的情形把公益彩券本來要補助給弱勢團體的全部拿去辦活動用這個就是過去發生的那今年112年度剛送來的這個部分包括這個財政這個運用不當"},{"start":6904.444,"end":6928.431,"text":"或者是說像有些東西有些管社變成一個文職管都是過去常常發生的情形所以如果所謂的錢大量的下放那事權沒有跟著走的話那未來到底責任要追誰的這個是非常大的問題那所以其實財政收支劃分法還有一個很重要我想委員很清楚他還到包括"},{"start":6929.471,"end":6934.337,"text":"到底多少人在分配包括現在其實財政收支方法還有鄉鎮的問題鄉鎮問題要不要討論這個都是問題所以就我們審計部的觀點來看未來只會更忙"},{"start":6943.248,"end":6947.292,"text":"所以啊您剛剛講112年度已經有1760案被審計部門來提出他的財政不經濟財政不紀律我想才化法如果這樣6612億沒有搞清楚權責怎麼劃分的話你未來可能是十倍百倍的業務量"},{"start":6967.329,"end":6996.306,"text":"我再跟委員做一個例子說明比如說我們在防疫期間那我們對醫療院所有一些補貼那過去發生一個事就是補貼由衛福部已經撥到縣市的結果縣市就放著沒有給醫療院所那後來去查說原來放在縣市那裡那這個情形就是一個重大的缺失這都是比比皆是慶祝難輸所以我也整理出財政部也觀察到這樣子的一個傾向跟過去發生的案例"},{"start":6997.006,"end":7007.452,"text":"如果大量的從中央來釋出財源但是沒有把事權一併的考量清楚又或者是地方政府沒有辦法來提出具體的他錢要怎麼花的具體計劃的話勢必造成地方財政紀律的惡化包括"},{"start":7016.517,"end":7016.878,"text":"所以呢下一頁"},{"start":7034.073,"end":7040.878,"text":"就如同您剛講的我也挑出了一些案例在文字館的部分你看華聯縣政府被你們提案糾正了華聯縣蓋了一個環保科技園區結果呢成為文字館金門縣政府113年也被你們糾正了"},{"start":7050.686,"end":7069.143,"text":"他要把一個退役的太武發電廠轉化在利用建置電力博物館這是好事喔可是呢蓋了沒有好的評估跟配套也是蚊子館這是蚊子館的部分下一頁在加碼非法定社會補助的部分社福支出來"},{"start":7070.804,"end":7079.689,"text":"衛福部各地方政府這是你們非常大的量也就是老人福利老人津貼加碼再加碼甚至還發生主計處今年扣了7個縣市的補助款就因為他們胡亂的來濫用資源來進行社福的發放因為縣市首長都想當散財童子啊"},{"start":7092.837,"end":7110.716,"text":"右邊的案例雲林縣政府加一縣政府也都被你們糾正了同樣是非法定超過法定標準的社福支出好下一個不經濟支出及不經濟的建設更多被你們糾正的苗栗台中市政府都有"},{"start":7111.497,"end":7138.195,"text":"所以回應您剛剛所說的確實如果我們對於地方政府的財政紀律沒有一套更嚴謹的督導的制度就現行的制度您就抓不了了未來大放送這個乾坤大挪移從中央挖的錢就這樣下放了地方下一頁所以我說其實以為不可啦"},{"start":7139.266,"end":7153.936,"text":"做政治但是要了解財政不要只當政治的精算師而不是財政的精算師切莫讓財政收支劃分法淪為財政收入劃分法"},{"start":7154.716,"end":7161.858,"text":"我在這裡也要期待你們持續就你們的審計權要強力的發揮那今年審預算我們也更可以看到監察院的存在非常重要否則這麼多大量的中央資源釋放到地方去未來又沒有審計的力道又沒有監察權的行使那麼"},{"start":7178.982,"end":7186.645,"text":"臺灣的國家預算的制度會崩壞我們的財政紀律也會大大的受到傷害我們繼續努力謝謝秘書長謝謝主席好謝謝吳委員好那下一位我們請省發會委員進行發言"},{"start":7207.877,"end":7209.878,"text":"主席我們有請李秘書長麻煩秘書長省委員好秘書長早今天我們機會很難得我們就針對我們的中央政府有關監察院的總預算我們來進行詢答"},{"start":7230.317,"end":7247.383,"text":"所以我大概就針對今天我個人在預算書所看到的幾個可能需要說明的地方我就先請秘書長來說明希望說在未來預算審查的時候能夠比較順利首先我注意到你們的稅務預算這個稅務預算的部分"},{"start":7251.499,"end":7266.358,"text":"我看你們的統計到10月為止你們的執行率是差不多只有到八成是不是能請秘書長說明一下目前大概還為什麼只有到八成大概還沒上位執行的項目是哪一些"},{"start":7267.353,"end":7268.794,"text":"你說兩個部分,第一個部分是什麼?"},{"start":7288.644,"end":7312.218,"text":"就是你們會透過兩個方向來努力就對了一個是你們自己會透過行政執行處這個部分我有特別注意到這個執行率的問題但是再來就是我們編列有關明年稅入來源的部分這部分我看結構上面做了這個數字上面的一些調整幅度不可謂不大就是你們在這個罰金罰還的部分這個"},{"start":7317.54,"end":7337.745,"text":"今年這個明年度的預算成長600萬這個是怎麼樣估算的我跟委員報告明年度114年我們會審查113年的總統跟立委選舉所以我們總統跟立委選舉我們預期他的罰金可以多收到很多罰款對不對過去的經驗是這樣就是現在兩年一次選舉"},{"start":7344.606,"end":7364.554,"text":"就是選舉的隔年我們會查查了以後就會有很多的這個狀況違反政治先進法的相關規定所以你們按照過去的經驗所以你們今年在這個罰金罰完的部分對114年因為查總統跟立委的選舉過後那這個看起來我們的這個裁罰預估會比較高一點所以因為你們從這個從2050萬一下成長到2650萬成長了600萬的"},{"start":7373.397,"end":7393.131,"text":"的這個幅度這個我知道了解你們是怎麼樣的怎麼樣的來估算這個機制但是另外一方面你們在這個沒入跟沒收財務的部分的這個沒入金你們就又你們明年度預算就比今年預算又減少減少了400萬為什麼是怎麼樣怎麼樣估算"},{"start":7398.16,"end":7416.678,"text":"政治現金腳褲 這個我們今年有處理 那明年就會比較少 所以這個我們是 就是搭配嘛 選舉的時候 那查的那一年就會高 收入 那這個陣線就會比較低 所以我們一年是做這個"},{"start":7418.019,"end":7422.261,"text":"因為選舉的人多啦基於過去的經驗有關這個選舉及政治先進申報的部分的過去的經驗來做這樣的調整"},{"start":7446.465,"end":7454.516,"text":"那這個另外齁這個現行的有關沒入跟沒收財產現行有沒有包括虛擬貨幣現行沒有沒有齁"},{"start":7460.551,"end":7482.586,"text":"我也跟省委員報告一下有關虛擬貨幣的部分因為政治獻金法的主管單位不是我們法律的主管機關不是我們我們建議過很多次但現在還沒有修完我們建議說虛擬貨幣不能列為財產申報也不能列為政治獻金這個部分我想內政部也同意"},{"start":7483.126,"end":7505.914,"text":"不能列為財產申報不能列為政治獻金不能用虛擬貨幣進行政治獻金這部分其實不只是政治獻金法我們公職人員財產申報法我們利益衝突迴避法這些部分現在虛擬貨幣通通沒有納入這個我們都有具體的建議但是事實上我們洗錢防治法已經把虛擬貨幣納入了"},{"start":7508.15,"end":7535.371,"text":"現在最困擾的我們的理解是虛擬貨幣的價值到底多少沒有辦法定那這個虛擬貨幣的主管機關是金管會那行政院現在正透過各個部會在瞭解統整對這個虛擬貨幣未來怎麼管那從監察院立場我們是希望不管在財產申報或在政治獻金裡面都不能納入虛擬貨幣對但是現在現行的法令我沒有去修法事實上"},{"start":7535.971,"end":7549.142,"text":"就可以用虛擬貨幣進行政治獻金了而且他可能以他他這個這個這個申報的他捐獻的當日的行情可能都超過超過這個政治獻金的上限了"},{"start":7550.299,"end":7550.559,"text":"我希望說我們監察院這邊能夠積極"},{"start":7577.305,"end":7598.218,"text":"這次憲刑法的主管機關是內政部我們等於說積極跟這些相關包括公職人員財產申報法包括利益衝突迴避法包括政治憲刑法我們分別跟內政部跟法務部有建議過那他們原則上也都同意都同意但是我們還是沒有看到對他們修法要經過比較長的過程這個部分我希望監察院這邊能夠積極來推動那這個"},{"start":7602.153,"end":7620.055,"text":"接下來一點時間就跟秘書長討論有關於我們監察院行使職權在行使調查彈劾糾舉糾正案的過程中律師在場權的問題律師在場權這個我們監察院從來沒有禁止律師在場權我知道沒有禁止但是也沒有規範"},{"start":7622.275,"end":7636.489,"text":"我們在調查注意事項裡面有提到但是沒有把它法制化目前我們這個針對這個這個監察院針對這個受彈劾跟糾舉的人在這個在這個調查的過程裡面保障措施有哪一些"},{"start":7640.145,"end":7664.519,"text":"我們這樣問好了我們這個監察委員在約詢實務上面我們是不是曾經有讓律師在場的情況有過去有過去有但是這個並沒有主動提示或者是全部要求一律讓他有律師在場權沒有主動提示啦但是他如果帶律師來我們也不會禁止唯一有可能有例外就是那個機密事項"},{"start":7665.664,"end":7692.805,"text":"緊密事項那另外就是剛剛這個省委員所關心的正當法律程序的部分我們包括迴避啦包括這個這個其他的相關的部分這個部分目前沒有授權的依據也沒有相關的規範我們目前在監察法的第5章還有監察法施行細則第5章都有相關的規範那唯一沒有的是我們的所謂的調查報告注意事項裡面還沒有變成一個法的位階那未來要不要變成法的位階把它明確規範這個我們還要再討論"},{"start":7695.267,"end":7715.853,"text":"對,這個部分我是希望說能夠因為這個有權力就有救濟當然這部分在這個監察院行使職權的時候我希望能夠這個我們目前都沒有禁止對,我知道沒有禁止我是認為這個要保障要保障這個律師在場權這個部分我就用法制上面做一些檢討最後"},{"start":7719.331,"end":7742.884,"text":"剛才在前面的答詢裡面也有委員提到有關於目前生成式AI參考指引的運用方式它會使得我們人權就這個數位人權的部分會變成非常重要的一個部分但是我在你們的預算當中卻沒有看到"},{"start":7743.953,"end":7758.819,"text":"沒有看到相關的反映反映出來說你們有關於這個數位人權的部分的預算的增加或者是這個工作上面的重視剛剛我在答詢的時候已經報告過了112年113年我們有一個委託案另外我們辦了一個國際論壇都是數位AI未來深圳市的"},{"start":7768.062,"end":7776.47,"text":"深圳市的AI對人權會產生什麼潛在性的影響我們對這個部分有很詳細的討論你們的立法計畫上面有提到說你們數位人權會優先的人權議題對你們這個人權委員會的這個中層策略計畫也有兩年計畫這個在2022年的時候我們把它定為我們的中層計畫"},{"start":7789.782,"end":7801.31,"text":"但是這個忠誠計劃看了結果你們只辦過一次國際演習營是針對數位人群沒有我們還有很多的工作會議還有跟各個社團來討論這個問題這是說國際演習營只辦一次但是除了國際演習營以外你們還有進行很多"},{"start":7807.314,"end":7829.639,"text":"對我剛報告在預算呈現了有國際論壇國際研討會另外還有一個是委託案那其他就是在我們的一般的議事事項裡面來討論那你們明年有預計要辦理這個全球數位人權大會是不是有這個事情明年有明年還是有你們籌辦的情況怎麼樣甚至在APPLE年會我們可能也會把這個當作一個議題"},{"start":7831.4,"end":7844.97,"text":"議題這個部分我是我是這個對於數位人權的部分我是非常重視的最後就是我上次上次我們質詢的時候我我上次我在這邊跟你溝通的時候有提到我認為這個有關這個政府機關"},{"start":7850.134,"end":7860.225,"text":"的資安集合我認為監察院應該要負起責任因為監察院是一個本於監察院的獨立性那時候李秘書長也說你們會回去研究"},{"start":7861.431,"end":7878.824,"text":"那研究是不是有研究的資通安全法現在指定的機關是數位部的資通安全署那就我們來講我們在人力上恐怕比較不足我們現在現有的資安的人員才七位但是我認為我認為說因為監察權本於監察權"},{"start":7883.107,"end":7884.068,"text":"我們下一位請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":7914.471,"end":7916.974,"text":"主席有請秘書長麻煩秘書長羅委員好秘書長好我最近好好在看監察院的預算我忽然發現您過去主張廢除監察院是不對的你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":7935.251,"end":7952.358,"text":"因為監察院是最高貴的機關第一名的機關很厲害這種監察院廢掉太可惜了我們辦公室整理了114年度中央各機關院級到部級36個單位你知道哪個機關平均單向出國計劃是最貴的"},{"start":7953.493,"end":7953.813,"text":"請問秘書長114年監察院出國計畫幾個?"},{"start":7976.472,"end":7994.147,"text":"總共我們編列了一千六百多萬吧一千零九十六萬啦一千零九十六萬對然後呢五個所謂的那個出訪計劃嘛對不對五種不同類型五個啦平均每個兩百二十萬元啦對不對"},{"start":7996.052,"end":8018.482,"text":"那我要跟你講我們辦公室整理的這36個單位恭喜你啊貴院的出國平均高貴度是114年度中央各機關的第一名那你知道全國監察院是所有機關裡面除了是單向出國計劃最貴的機關你知道外交部多少平均多少外交部你知不知道你的統計數字是200"},{"start":8020.1,"end":8045.275,"text":"外交部是200然後呢 行政院是多少 你們是行政院幾倍 行政院平均多少我的數字33.4萬啦 你看我對你們多好 數字都給你們看了然後呢 是6.5倍總出國經費 你們也在36個單位裡面高居第五 是五院之首 所以我要跟木曉雅沒關係啦 我是要肯定你啦 不要緊張嘛"},{"start":8046.435,"end":8073.768,"text":"我要跟秘書長說這麼高貴的監察院你怎麼可以廢掉他我要跟羅委員報告這個第一個人數不同第二個計畫也不同我告訴你藉口理由千千萬所以外交部的基本上比起你們來講人數也不重要計畫也不重要平均就比你們低不重要行政院也不重要我跟你講不用擔心你們這麼高昂的出國計畫我沒有怪你啊"},{"start":8074.668,"end":8078.471,"text":"我接下來看看你們出國計畫在幹什麼才是重點嘛來來來這麼高貴的監察院如果說今天依照秘書長你的意見把它廢掉的話你們以後要怎麼開心出國啊我很擔心欸我想再問問你來來沒關係沒關係這叫水平比較嘛"},{"start":8094.801,"end":8102.564,"text":"對不對水平比較你一堆藉口嘛又是計劃人數出國的人數計劃的項目來來來沒關係我講完了嘛不要緊張嘛我講完水平我講垂直嘛好不好我講垂直嘛來啦來啦我跟你講垂直嘛好啦我告訴你對你來說監察院存在就沒有意義你現在講數字沒有意義你都講監察院就廢掉了來來來沒關係"},{"start":8122.851,"end":8130.598,"text":"水平你藉口多來我們來看垂直可以看垂直吧來請問你110年到114年監察院出國預算成長多少"},{"start":8135.87,"end":8150.903,"text":"1.54倍啦如果數字不對你們再告訴我啦好不好我有沒有看到看過數字啊來監委出國預算征服是多少那時候還沒有人權會現在有人權會啊哎隨便人權會我告訴你人權會以前歷史在總統府的人權會以前在總統府做任務編組在總統府做比你們績效好得多啦你們在總統你們那個人權會根本就城局的護花園我還打算今天開個修法檢討勒"},{"start":8161.292,"end":8165.036,"text":"今天沒給你檢討人權會今天光講你的出國預算講到人權會人權會講得我一肚子火大你們人權會就是陳菊死刑廢除委員會啦就陳菊人權後院委員會啦來再一下沒關係繼續繼續繼續繼續繼續出國監委出國預算增幅是多少82%"},{"start":8186.109,"end":8191.324,"text":"我寫的數字不對告訴我來政府院長出國預算征服多少"},{"start":8193.032,"end":8214.815,"text":"百分之一百二十五啦錯還在錯勒還在錯勒我告訴你錯在哪裡不用啦我告訴你你要講什麼國家人權委員會搬出來啊111年5月我們才有副院長所以112年以後才開始變副院長我告訴你就算把副院長加進來你們增加一倍多副院長變成三十萬啊"},{"start":8216.056,"end":8230.73,"text":"你們的計劃增加一倍多你數學好不好啊125%欸兩倍的預算欸兩倍多的預算你跟我講沒有增加數字不是這樣算的沒有增加我剛剛跟你講沒關係來來來五月副院長我告訴你來來來你算你真的是你蠻會插話的我就很明白的回答您的問題來我告訴你再找藉口吧繼續找藉口你藉口多我知道"},{"start":8243.778,"end":8267.212,"text":"貴院不但是中央機關出國最高貴領導監察院也是監察院有史以來最高貴你們的監察院政府院長愛出國也是最高貴然後我跟你講我對你們監察院這出國的能力我的景仰滔滔江水連綿不絕那你找藉口的能力我也是很佩服沒關係真正跟監察院本務的赴外專案調查預算你知道增加還減少"},{"start":8270.088,"end":8275.716,"text":"減少了連這個都不知道前面你都在講的那麼開開心心藉口一大堆減少21%啦對嘛你現在對了齁"},{"start":8280.919,"end":8302.839,"text":"那我跟你講裡面還包括一個什麼包括一個區域的沒有黑熊只有中熊日本北海道去考察黑熊還有長野縣長野縣有黑熊我跟你講我在問你A你答B幹嘛A啊我知道大法官坐你後盾問A答B沒事沒關係回來我問你今天你去只有黑熊沒有中熊的日本北海道你預算是怎麼寫的"},{"start":8304.195,"end":8313.427,"text":"我告訴你這個計劃包括一款北海道還有包括長野線一個看中熊一個看黑熊你上面寫的是哪裡你寫的是北海道啊"},{"start":8318.154,"end":8335.144,"text":"我們兩個都寫了啊你在預算的預算說明寫北海道來來來我告訴你啊監察院啊我告訴你監察院你不但是出國第一名你是耍廢第一名啊我直接跟你說了你的出國總體預算來沒關係我告訴你你的總體出國預算漲到外太空你的專案調查反而在減少我這一點說走沒錯吧我沒說錯吧"},{"start":8345.683,"end":8348.106,"text":"你告訴我說你要到長野縣去北海道的中雄那你要去看黑熊長野縣你要去看黑熊北海道明明就中雄藉口那麼多你還沒關係"},{"start":8361.685,"end":8362.066,"text":"拜臺道本來就看中熊嘛很清楚"},{"start":8380.783,"end":8381.824,"text":"103年8月到現在我們關於動物原住民的權益保障議題 監察院提出報告32案"},{"start":8400.794,"end":8403.636,"text":"在20...在2612案調查報告占1.2%不能用全部的調查報告來...好啦好啦全部調查報告也不重要你的金費多也不重要什麼都不重要你李俊逸領監察院秘書長的薪水最重要我懂啦"},{"start":8419.767,"end":8438.715,"text":"非監察院領監察秘書的薪水你最開心啦來來來我告訴你我跟你講你在那邊講非監察院你就讓你沒意義你的存在本身就沒意義還沒意義勒監察院的薪水領的最有意義來來來共識今天監察院領薪水有沒有意義"},{"start":8440.858,"end":8450.587,"text":"答不出來啦有意義啦我幫你背書啦金水那麼香怎麼會沒意義監察院廢掉那監察院主管的薪水還是要領啊怎麼可以不領啊來好你今天調查報告只佔百分之1.2你說啊我的百分之1.2做得非常的棒非常的高貴非常的豪華可以抵58497案"},{"start":8464.099,"end":8468.283,"text":"羅偉我説明的很清楚來來來沒關係我告訴你我的結論很簡單平常你們在調查報告對原住民的議題對動物保護議題你就是沒有很高度的關心阿出國很關心阿來來來沒關係再來當然不準嘛"},{"start":8490.263,"end":8498.47,"text":"監察院他在2008年到現在跨越兩個政府哪三年監察院提出來考察意見項數最低你又答不出來啊來沒關係我告訴你2019年八項最低再來就是2023年的14項次低再來是2022年的18項第三低這三項都是在哪個政府發生的啊"},{"start":8517.685,"end":8535.836,"text":"從頭到尾同一件事情就是你用不同的基準在比又來了又不同的基準又不同的基準我跟你監察院2008年比到2023年這基準又跟我講不同就你的薪水一樣嘛有什麼不同沒關係啦你要拗隨便你拗啦繼續繼續我告訴你"},{"start":8543.086,"end":8564.596,"text":"你的監察院的預算倍增然後呢你的所謂的考察的這個像素意見大減歷史最低你照這種情況之下你該跟我講你績效多好來沒關係喔我才說你監察院第一名嘛你緊張什麼愛出國高貴第一名沒關係啦你又要講值嘛你講量不重要嘛1.2%戰術不重要嘛"},{"start":8567.617,"end":8569.078,"text":"2022年12月監察院去新加坡考察,考察寫一本報告,報告名字叫什麼?"},{"start":8585.028,"end":8600.998,"text":"政府機關優化數位轉型服務跟硬體設施改造以處理人民陳情實務為例聽起來很厲害但你們報告寫得更棒來來來兩位報告處長上來我們的王處長跟張處長我想請教您你們寫了幾點心得啊九點啦我要告訴你啦你們九點心得寫了什麼"},{"start":8614.841,"end":8631.294,"text":"我們現在監察院歡迎羅委員去參加沒關係喔你們心得寫得太棒你們心得寫得太好我一定要讓全國人民知道你們寫了五點齁我真的嘆為觀止簡直要趴在地上佩服啦第一點記得大家要用Siri啦你們的心得一啦"},{"start":8634.178,"end":8636.88,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":8652.995,"end":8673.251,"text":"第5個藉由考察聯繫過程要體會棄而不捨的決心化不可能為可能才是重要關鍵你們的出國的決心真的棄而不捨預算用最多然後呢專案考察的項目是最少然後呢出國報告給我寫了這麼偉大的出國報告我這邊直接跟你講我今天羅志強我就立個提案你監察的出國預算這麼搞爛的話全三謝謝"},{"start":8687.52,"end":8713.312,"text":"好謝謝羅委員那下一位我們請林思銘委員林思銘委員林思銘與銘委員好那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員進行詢答主席在黨委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長共同夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們李秘書長麻煩秘書長"},{"start":8717.234,"end":8719.335,"text":"政治人物辦演唱會的收入算不算政治現金?"},{"start":8738.962,"end":8763.473,"text":"算任何政治募款都是政治現金他說他是有人辦了演唱會他去其中現唱那這個活動的收入政治現金把規定的很清楚不管你的形式為何演講會募款常會這個義賣或者是演唱會只要你有募款是為了選舉用的都屬於政治現金的範疇所以"},{"start":8764.293,"end":8784.302,"text":"這跟內政部的函是你剛剛的說法有沒有出入啊個人或團體從事活動的性質如任屬競選活動或政治相關活動且相關資金系屬無償或提供不相當對價之給付者受綁法之規範所以你剛剛講的這個事情是要由內政部來認定還是監察院可以認定"},{"start":8784.682,"end":8805.413,"text":"我們認定的是政治獻金法政治獻金法裡面規定的非常清楚就是不管任何活動你是為了政治這個政治募款的就屬於政治獻金的但他如果說沒有我沒有說募款呢有啊他對外宣稱就是要募款好那當然了這個圖片可能你不曉得他賣了多少錢往下看我們比較一下棒球賽12強大概700元起跳"},{"start":8808.683,"end":8810.764,"text":"那你覺得剛剛依照內政部的解釋"},{"start":8830.95,"end":8831.651,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8851.138,"end":8870.5,"text":"報告委員一方面這個是屬於我們也認為是不相當的對價然後再來那個柯市長當時自己也有對外這樣子做說明所以你們有雙重的認定第一個先依他的主張他說這是一個政治競選活動有募款的性質第二個顯然的他的收費票價"},{"start":8871.721,"end":8882.363,"text":"跟一般的演唱會比起來不相當所以你們也參考了內政部的一個含釋所以認定他是一個政治獻金所以你們認不認爲目前他這個獻金有短報正在談當中但是他已經承認了民眾黨召開記者會承認短漏報並且道歉另外我們看到了北檢也生壓了辦理這個活動的公關公司有4000萬"},{"start":8898.752,"end":8924.657,"text":"那秘書長我們當然不好意思請一下假設問題啦那麼這種情況之下你們的調查會等到北檢還是你們會持續的往下調查就政治獻金部分繼續調查政治獻金的部分我們持續在調查當中那我們也跟北檢密切的合作北檢很多資料是從我們這邊提供的所以未來你們因為政治獻金的認定的裁罰是屬於行政處分嗎那你們會先做嗎如果有需要處分的話如果需要處分我們就會處分"},{"start":8925.385,"end":8945.546,"text":"那你們不會去等候北檢那邊司法偵辦的情況那跟監察權的行使不太一樣政治獻金我們是執行機關只要違反政治獻金法那我們就會做處分所以很明顯的政治獻金在監察院我們的監察法或者監察院執權刑事法假設未來"},{"start":8946.96,"end":8975.829,"text":"那你們跟國會的調查權的行使遇到了司法在偵辦或遇到了監察院在調查就必須停止是有所不同的是這樣嗎 不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 調查部分是根據監察法施行細則27條遇到刑事的案件偵查中我們就會停止但是政治獻金法我們查我們的只要政治獻金法違反但是如果裡面我們認為說可能有懷疑說可能有其他的形式的話我們會送檢查單位 好"},{"start":8976.849,"end":8993.275,"text":"那如果說今天因為本院吶立法院為了要審監察院的預算那麼審預算的時候我們就可以基於職權制行使根據新的立職法我們就成立了院會成立了調查委員會如果要來調查這筆政治現金跟你們有沒有"},{"start":8994.147,"end":9020.279,"text":"去你們的政治獻金的職權的預算的運用有沒有相關您覺得立法院有沒有可能成立一個調查委員會來調查為了省監察院的預算來查你們對這個政治獻金的處理有沒有恰當依據憲判第9號的判決裡面說的很清楚立法院要成立任何調查委員會必須先說明跟他行使職權相關"},{"start":9022.622,"end":9026.486,"text":"現在民眾黨認為說監察院的預算要全砍他說要刪掉你們的監察院預算除了基本人事費和財產申報之外全砍"},{"start":9047.421,"end":9053.091,"text":"那如果這兩個預算留著寫到全款以後剛剛的政治監禁還能查嗎?"},{"start":9055.171,"end":9057.453,"text":"所以目前民眾黨主張說除了財產申報費用他留下來之外就是要你們繼續調查本案囉"},{"start":9086.34,"end":9105.807,"text":"我不知道民眾黨的用意是什麼那我們對任何政黨任何政治人物的評論我們也不做任何的評論那我們往下看那最近的又發生了齁這個國民黨中國國民黨的招總招復婚成委員的所要對一個郭志輝要進行調查郭部長他調查什麼調查他的財產申報"},{"start":9109.38,"end":9125.331,"text":"中國委員我剛才說明我剛才在答詢過程中說明很清楚是8月19號郭部長來我們監察院申報財產是那其中的股份還是99.9%在他手上沒有移轉是好那我們現在看那你剛才已經講了最後這一頁下一頁"},{"start":9126.132,"end":9139.476,"text":"那麼立法院可不可以成立調查委員會來調查財產你說這個財產申報這是屬於監察法施行期當中屬於監察院的職責財產申報嘛沒錯嘛財產申報嘛那就這個部分您認為如果成立了這個調查委員會會不會影響到你們屬於財產申報部分的行使當然啊當然所以你認為這要根據憲判的意旨"},{"start":9155.216,"end":9180.55,"text":"立法院要先停下來等你們調查完不是不是不是要等我們調查完而是憲判9號的意旨是說立法院如果沒有辦法證明這跟他行使職權有關的話他根本不能成立這樣的調查委員會好那好那我們這題差不多我們往下看請問監察院的預算包括人權委員會好7月15號你們監察法的修正草案當中有增進的人權專章是不是"},{"start":9181.645,"end":9207.211,"text":"對我們送來的我們希望在人權專章裡面就把它有關職權的行使能夠那在人權專章還沒通過之前這個人權委員的運作也受監察院相關法令職權審査規定他現在是我們的一級單位一級單位那他的預算也編在你們當中是好那現在一個問題出現了往下看那監察委員跟人權委員的職務分工怎麼分工我們是不是知道現在人權委員的委員是怎麼來產生的"},{"start":9208.871,"end":9224.3,"text":"人權委員會現在有十位那八位是固定委員包含院長就是他是主任委員那另外有兩位他是這個每年輪派由其他的監察委員去擔任人權委員所以這十位通通都是監察委員對"},{"start":9225.649,"end":9252.174,"text":"只是兩位是輪的另外八位韓政委員長是固定的那現在人權委員的職權是包含調查侵害人權的事件擬定人權政策建議跟推動人權教育他基本上不像是監察院的事後權嗎他基本上概念上不太一樣所以但是呢在監察委員當人權委員去對公司部門進行的時候他如果發現公部門有涉及不法他可不可以發動他的監察權"},{"start":9258.762,"end":9271.988,"text":"最近吵得非常洋洋的勞動部已有主管霸凌的事情目前監察院有委員要調查了嗎目前有韓巡我們有六位委員登記韓巡這六位委員是不是都是人權委員"},{"start":9274.943,"end":9301.478,"text":"不完全是不完全是所以有包括人權委員對有包括人權委員那麼既然我們知道這個有事後權跟人權是不一樣的概念往下看那請問一下人權委員會當中監察委員的角色我們很清楚人權委員會雖然設置在監察院底下但是他的目的存在是調查現存的不管公私立部門他要完善現行的法規他做的是事前的預防對不對"},{"start":9303.119,"end":9316.445,"text":"但是監委在當中他也同時會行使調查是屬於事後的懲處那如果說監察委員在人權委員會的一個調查當中他發現在公佈的部分設有失職那怎麼處理"},{"start":9317.847,"end":9343.703,"text":"我們通常會轉到監察院來那針對公部門部分或是公務人員的部分再調查那請問一下目前勞動部這個案子有沒有在我們之前人權委員會進行公私立機關的人權調查當中目前還在含蓄的階段所以還沒有那是監察權的部分我是說人權委員會有沒有就勞動人權的部分廣義的勞動人權包含了公務機關的公務員對不對"},{"start":9345.731,"end":9374.188,"text":"那你認為如果用這個角色來看用這個事件來看目前勞動部所呈現的問題是不是也是廣義的人權委員應該關心的普遍臺灣的勞動人權的一部分是我跟中委員報告這是屬於兩公約裡面的相關的議題特別是針對霸凌的部分我們過去有很多的關心包括人權委員會跟監察院你剛剛說到有很多人權關心那請問過去人權委員會有對臺灣的公司力部門的職場的霸凌有做過調查嗎"},{"start":9377.352,"end":9377.392,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":9401.701,"end":9426.057,"text":"他的執掌跟監察委員的執掌是分開的對他的運作也是分開的預算也是分開的目的不同職權不同對那預算有沒有不同預算是在一起的預算是在一起這就是現在人權委員會還沒有辦法變成真正的獨立機關他現在只是準獨立機關我知道我的意思說在科目上我們希望能夠在未來監察院的預算當中很清楚的看到"},{"start":9426.587,"end":9434.625,"text":"如果要對於整個臺灣包括公務門在內的勞動人權做廣泛性符合人權公約的普查他所需要的經費跟"},{"start":9436.383,"end":9456.611,"text":"接到檢舉監察委員啟動調查他所運用的部門經委是不是不應該一樣對應該不一樣那目前扮演的角色現在我們人權委員人也不夠啦是那沒有辦法做那麼多事是所以我是說希望未來監察院在預算的一個編列上就算他不是獨立機關你們也應該在預算書的呈顯上"},{"start":9459.792,"end":9485.585,"text":"將一個針對全國不分公司力部門包括勞動人權在內兩公院的落實的一個普查跟調查人權委員的預算的行使以及監察委員基於檢舉陳情他所行使的一個立法院監察委員事後權的監督的這個職權行使這樣的預算的一個行使的範疇編列是不是能夠分開的表達我們現在就分開啊有沒有表達包括出國會議都是先分開因為剛剛很多委員關心的"},{"start":9487.586,"end":9511.82,"text":"我都不太清楚他是關心的是監委出國的考察會議還是以人權委員會參加就是國際會議的會議現在的負責人權委員會也有國際會議啊就是我們人權就是剛剛所講的所謂的出國費用包括監察院包括人權委員會通通加在一起但是我們的項目是分開便利項目是分開的好那我們希望未來"},{"start":9512.96,"end":9538.426,"text":"縱使還沒有修我們的監察院職權行使法或者說是我們的預算在人權委員沒有成獨立機關之前這個部分希望你們在職權行使跟預算的運用上都能夠分別的呈現當然委員監察委員他同時為人權會委員跟監察委員他在行使這職權的時候他有雙重身份有雙重效果我們希望就該案現在已經有委員申請自動調查了"},{"start":9539.406,"end":9539.426,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":9561.562,"end":9587.72,"text":"翁曉麟委員翁曉麟委員翁曉麟委員謝龍介委員謝龍介委員謝龍介委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員"},{"start":9589.281,"end":9592.163,"text":"委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員委員都沒了"},{"start":9621.522,"end":9625.325,"text":"質詢10提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關請訴送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":9640.465,"end":9656.294,"text":"委員翁曉林、謝龍介、林思明、傅坤祺所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆本次會議進行到此討論事項關於監察院主管"},{"start":9657.094,"end":9677.757,"text":"收支部分報告及詢答完畢做如下決議令定期繼續審查那審查會委員針對本日議程所列討論事項之一預算提出請於11月25日星期一中午12點之前提出預時不予受理現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16284","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16284","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dbae2c6269a10f1bf1e7e4de50953ef4db104c5adbfed68f7cc497f5016313e655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會代理主任委員張欣列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。\n四、審查114年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。\n（第二案至第四案僅進行詢答，相關預算提案請於11月29日下午2時前提出）\n【11月20日及21日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-20T08:31:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T11:50:00+08:00","duration":11890,"影片長度":"03:18:10","委員發言時間":"08:31:50 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中及除役中核電廠持續執行各項安全審查駐場視察團隊視察及不預警視察等而針對目前運轉中之核三廠二號機的運轉安全事項以及核一"},{"start":2211.505,"end":2224.84,"text":"二、三場進入廚藝機組之廚藝計劃列管事項,亦進行密切的管制與追蹤。在放射性廢棄物安全管制上,針對核一廠室外乾除部分,台電公司已於今年10月23日開始熱測試作業。"},{"start":2227.523,"end":2246.408,"text":"目前已完成第一組儲存互相運儲相關作業本會派員全程檢查而核二廠室外乾除部分本會已完成儲存容器及相關組件設備之製造品質查核此外本會亦嚴格執行和物料相關設施與運送作業之安全管制工作"},{"start":2247.088,"end":2272.005,"text":"在提升核災、伏災、跨機關應變效能部分透過今年視察核電廠場內演習及辦理核安演習納入日本能登半島震災、烏鱷軍事衝突及複合式災害等情境以提升核電廠安全防護能力另外一與11個縣市政府合作辦理民安十號輻射災害應變演練精進我國中央與地方輻射災害聯合應變能力"},{"start":2273.746,"end":2299.072,"text":"在推動輻射醫療瀑布平保方面執行102家醫院輻防與醫療瀑布平保作業檢查完成全國370部X光機平保審查並辦理護理人員巡迴講座強化民眾醫療輻射安全此外執行高強度輻射設施執照申請案審查完成100件放射線照相檢驗工作"},{"start":2299.972,"end":2320.26,"text":"工地不預警稽查,並持續辦理輻射屋居民健康檢查與道府健康關懷訪視,落實輻射安全管制。在全國環境輻射監測方面,針對核設施周圍環境,全國放射性落成,食品及飲用水等,截至今年10月底已完成檢測4397件,分析結果沒有異常情形。"},{"start":2324.142,"end":2340.739,"text":"令全天候24小時運作之全國63座環境輻射監測站,監測結果均在環境背景輻射變動範圍內。令針對進口食品之輻射檢測,協助食藥署進行分析每年提供7萬件以上之檢測量能。"},{"start":2341.48,"end":2367.232,"text":"有關因應日本寒川廢水部分．跨部會共組因應平台．各一職長執行海水漁獲物．日本輸入水產食品以及生態樣本等取樣及檢測作業．截至今年10月底已完成3537件．分析結果沒有異常情形．此外今年6月底起．國內生物川檢測量能則由每年的500件提升到2000件．"},{"start":2368.433,"end":2394.069,"text":"接下來報告推動原子能科技創新的部分在拓展國際交流並擅近核子保防義務部分持續與美國、日本等相關核安管制機構定期召開會議交流同時國際原子能總署更連續第18年宣告我國所有核物料均用於核能和平用途後續將持續關注國際動態積極與各國建立新的合作管道"},{"start":2395.049,"end":2414.269,"text":"在推動社會溝通及原子能科普教育部分,設立全民參與事務諮詢會,針對社會關注的核安、福安管制議題之溝通模式,邀請諮詢委員給予指導與建議,另以原子能科普進行社會溝通,積極與其他單位合作,以多元管道擴大原子能科普諮詢之傳播。"},{"start":2415.991,"end":2432.052,"text":"為推動原子能科技基礎研究落實原子能科技研發之整合本會與國科會共同推動學術合作研究計劃深化原子能科技研發能量促進在醫學、農業、工業環境永續之研究發展與人才培育"},{"start":2432.873,"end":2452.269,"text":"因應產業需求本會補助國營院執行各項專案計劃建立各項原子能關鍵技術並配合國家淨零轉型及本土核電廠自主技術政策發展能源集合後端技術在建立原子能關鍵技術方面積極推動多雷克加幹功能造影機臨床試驗"},{"start":2453.75,"end":2469.36,"text":"協助肝癌病人進行直子治療前後的肝功能評估並推動建置70mEV迴旋加速器以穩定國內核醫藥物的供需並協助我國之基礎科研、生醫產業、太空及國防科技、半導體及材料產業等發展。"},{"start":2471.121,"end":2489.626,"text":"在發展能源及核後端技術方面,運用國園院核設施清理經驗及技術,建立本土儲益技術自主能力,並配合政府能源政策轉型,開發電網韌性、反電池、風機葉片整合系統等綠能相關技術,促進能源技術本土化。"},{"start":2490.826,"end":2519.145,"text":"為接軌新世代核能技術,國研院已收集研析國際間有關SMR之相關資訊與法規﹐管制法規﹐並規劃於114年到117年進行SMR安全分析技術整備及分析驗證研究此外執行國科會此約束高溫電漿研究整合計劃目標完成國內第一套托克馬克實驗裝置建構高溫電漿控制與量測技術培育國內和融合相關之技術人才"},{"start":2519.986,"end":2541.707,"text":"接下來報告114年度河岸會及所屬預算編列情形在公務預算部分114年度本會及所屬單位預算稅入共計一億三千四百五十二萬一千元較前一年度減少八百三十萬三千元主要為核子反應器設施核子燃料及運轉檢查費收入減少所致"},{"start":2542.688,"end":2550.774,"text":"在114年度稅出部分,核安會及所屬共編列38億3878萬9千元,較113年度增加了8億9185萬6千元,其中仍是及資本維持減少1.05億元,主要簡列配合組改等一次性經費。"},{"start":2562.262,"end":2590.771,"text":"而科技及工建計劃支出則增加5.93億元主要增加70 MeV迴旋加速器建置、淨零排放、永續生物資源循環等經費。另新增編列行政法人退休公務人員退伏給付3.09億元及增列國家研究用核設施清理計劃建置自主學習網等0.95億元在核子事故緊急應變基金來源及用途部分"},{"start":2591.431,"end":2604.841,"text":"基金來源主要為緊急應變整備收入及利息收入因14年度收入為1億2192萬2千元因配合銀行利率調升故較去年增加基金專戶資息收入133萬元"},{"start":2607.623,"end":2632.389,"text":"一、一四年度基金用途預算編列九千八百五十七萬七千元較上年度減少兩百七十一萬兩千元主要檢列地方災害應變工作計劃中點片及輻射偵檢儀器汰換令增列中央災害應變計劃中衛星電話更新等經費所致接著報告行政法人國家原子能科技研究院收支編列情形"},{"start":2633.649,"end":2640.37,"text":"114年度收入編列28億3,564萬7千元較上年度簡列1億5,736萬元主要系簡列執行政府補助營運發展計劃收入支出編列27億7,511萬1千元較上年度簡列1億7,202萬8千元主要系簡列業務費及服務成本收支相抵後稅後剩餘6,053萬6千元"},{"start":2662.642,"end":2688.604,"text":"本會將依法獨立行使職權持續執行核能輻射及放射性物料安全管制工作同時精進原子能科技研發拓展相關民生應用並落實資訊公開及公眾參與以增進民生福祉及環境永續敬請各位委員對核安會的預算賄予大力的支持與協助謝謝以上報告不盡之處敬請委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2692.445,"end":2703.129,"text":"謝謝張代理主任委員口頭報告現在進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘登記發言截止時間為上午10點30分委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並與本會委員葉元之質詢結束後進行臨時提案處理"},{"start":2718.255,"end":2728.102,"text":"處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們請發言登記第一位洪孟楷委員質詢好主委好"},{"start":2744.397,"end":2770.954,"text":"委員好主委剛剛本席聽到您跟我們的召委也在談然後就說前任的主委他說是生涯規劃任職沒有一年就請辭那你從8月16號到現在代理也超過三個月了那依我們相關規定出缺三個月其實就要任命新任委員那到目前為止會有新的主委來還是說你徵處有沒有消息"},{"start":2771.941,"end":2796.177,"text":"我想這一部分是行政院的權責所以基本上我就是目前做好我現在的工作但是超過三個月也沒有任何人跟你講說繼續代理或者是有任何的民事暗示基本上我就是尊重行政院的決定所以那我們這樣子不知道就是說我們這個明年的預算是不是要等新任主委上任之後才來審啊"},{"start":2798.456,"end":2826.628,"text":"因為你現在三個月到了就是應該要有新的主委嘛這個是組織法相關規定啊那你現在你也說不清楚然後今天來你已經在編明年的預算已經在報告了那我們不知道說會不會我們審完之後發覺新郎新娘不是你那這樣我們也很尷尬你尷尬我也尷尬那還是說是不是我們就是建議說暫緩審查明年的預算等到說新任主委真的確認了那我們再來審查您怎麼看"},{"start":2827.821,"end":2855.889,"text":"報告主委,在我們的組織法的話報告委員啦,我不是主委啦,是Sorry,報告委員,在我們的組織法其實在這個主任委員無法執行這個相關的業務的時候就是由副主委代理,因為我原來就是副主委所以我就在你執行這個業務那既然代理執行這個業務當然就是在這個期間就要對這個業務負責所以我們依法來編列預算跟來這邊報告還是希望委員能夠多多支持"},{"start":2856.249,"end":2861.53,"text":"國際的趨勢現在COVID-19在氣候變遷因應會議也有提到有20幾個國家簽署核能三倍宣言"},{"start":2885.874,"end":2888.375,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":2907.13,"end":2928.761,"text":"代理主委也好或是之後有可能徵處的主委啊重點在於是說要用科學專業判斷來給國家參考啊所以我們想請教一下你現在對於核能的態度台灣有沒有避免核能不要核能的本錢尤其是現在2050淨零碳牌我們有一個減碳目標您怎麼看"},{"start":2930.59,"end":2954.905,"text":"報告委員剛才委員所詢問的部分其實都是能源政策的部分核安會是安全主管機關基本上我們是在只要有使用到的核能的部分我們做好我們安全管制的工作其實這一部分報告委員真的不在我們的職權範圍之內沒有之前你們有做過安全管制嗎其實我其實很不了解說我們現在民進黨政府"},{"start":2956.286,"end":2965.506,"text":"好讓又要又不要等於跟他四棒跟他八我們總統他院長來立法院備詢的時候講說現在要新核能"},{"start":2966.738,"end":2971.4,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":2987.662,"end":3003.047,"text":"所以這根本就是假命題啊如果現在沒有安全那代表過去40年核一、核二、核三都在不安全的情況下運作那代表我們所有同仁是失職那如果說現在有安全的話那就沒有這樣的一個前提啊是不是"},{"start":3005.046,"end":3022.764,"text":"根委員報告,其實任何進入延役的機組其實之前都是在運轉中的機組,所以才會有所謂的延役嘛。那剛才提到了說運轉中的機組是安全的,確實運轉中機組必須符合安全管制的相關的法規跟要求。"},{"start":3023.485,"end":3044.672,"text":"但是研議是一個機制所以它必須進行安全評估並不是它原來在運轉中它就可以自動評估所以我剛還沒有提到研議你已經先拋研議這個議題了那我們就來討論研議這個議題有人講是說要研議有專家學者報導有講說研議的話其實過程兩年三年就有可能恢復"},{"start":3045.572,"end":3067.838,"text":"但是也有傳出來說行政院副院長鄭麗君在院內會議裡面表示核能研議起碼要3年半到5年那其中一個關鍵提到的講是說還不是專業考量是選舉考量所以要避開選舉避開大選所以至少要3年到5年以專業的角度來講我請教諸位"},{"start":3068.678,"end":3078.359,"text":"我們如果說真的核能研議姑且先不論法令的部分以專業以台電現在的報告來講我們重啟核能或核能研議需要幾年"},{"start":3079.292,"end":3104.36,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在既有的核能管制法事實上我們就是要在機組運轉執照到屆期前5年提出研議當時就有考慮到在這個申請研議的期間我們必須進行相關的審查台電公司也會在這個期間完成他必須因應的這個改善或設備更換所以確實需要多少時間其實是要台電公司仔細去盤點評估"},{"start":3108.102,"end":3131.514,"text":"我知道你現在講的東西都是照本宣科你都在唸跳文啊本席現在在問的是你專業的評估跟你客觀的分析還有參考國際上來講現在美國也在重啓核電啊美國要幾年基本上我們原來在核管法裡面的規定我先請教美國要幾年我們世界先進國家所以本席一直在強調是說世界趨勢"},{"start":3133.154,"end":3152.696,"text":"我們的核電廠也不是我們首創先例我們自己去研發嘛也是買美國也是買歐美的相關機組嘛那照理講美國的相關的一些條件或說美國的一些相關的技術我們是可以參考啊那我想請教現在美國不管是拜登政府或說即將上任的川普政府他們也提到研議啊他們要五年嗎"},{"start":3155.287,"end":3169.58,"text":"有沒有去調查有沒有去研究還是你今天就是我抱著條文來然後我就鐵板一塊反正執政黨還沒有說話上面還沒有交代啊我這邊當一天和尚敲一天鐘委員不要為難我啦不然我真處可能無望"},{"start":3171.656,"end":3192.742,"text":"委員剛才提到了其實都是在運轉中提出這個研議的申請的部分那本來就有相關的法規的規定至於期程的長短就看台電公司他準備的評估報告內容但是目前以國內的狀況我們目前核一二跟核三的一號機都已進入這個除役期間而且台電公司已經提出除役申請"},{"start":3193.642,"end":3221.959,"text":"所以相關的他們的組織或者是他們的人力或者他們的維護都在變更所以這其實有它的複雜性在所以你不覺得你現在真的很前後矛盾嗎本席一開始沒有提到研議然後你自己去提研議那本席真的請教你研議我還想說是不是我們核安會在你的組長之下欸比較有前瞻的想法也看到國際的趨勢這不是我講的欸是國際的趨勢是美國確實拜登政府重啟核電廠川普政府也說要重啟而且"},{"start":3222.879,"end":3243.954,"text":"請容我提醒川普政府他過去到現在的競選主張除了說他可能是相對來講燃油燃氣他會支持以外核能他沒有放棄核能他也是大力支持再生能源其實美國或是我們先進國家也都支持而本期過去到現在一貫的主張是認為是說現在大家都在減碳"},{"start":3244.995,"end":3263.549,"text":"所以我們並不是要拿核能來去取代再生能源完全沒有衝突核能跟再生能源是並行並走並存的並且我也希望再生能源可以好好的發展我們是要用核能來取代火力發電因為現在此時此刻當核三廠的二號機稅休的時候"},{"start":3264.269,"end":3292.076,"text":"核能發電是零的時候我們全台灣是85%甚至90%以上火力全開火力發電這才是空汙這才是造成我們國人的乙肺發電的最重要的影響主委你雖然是核安會的代理主委但你也是生活在台灣的一份子每天我們生活是一樣的空氣你難道不會擔心說我們生活呼吸到這樣的空氣對我們的自己及下一代身體健康會有安全的疑慮嗎"},{"start":3294.457,"end":3318.136,"text":"所以報告立委秉持核能安全把關的專業這部分確實需要仔細的評估也需要有共識代理主委主席剛暗示我然後時間到我只最後請教卓榮泰院長有講新核能請教什麼是新核能"},{"start":3319.883,"end":3338.699,"text":"應該是指到進步型的反應器或者是所謂的小型模組化反應器或者核融核都是目前在發展中的核能技術對那我們相關的預算怎麼沒有看到對於新核能你剛所提到的研究或計畫我們在國語你也是身為原子能科技研究院的院長"},{"start":3340.711,"end":3356.169,"text":"那所以換言之卓榮泰院長也講說要新核能啊就代表是說現在核一、核二、核三用的甚至我們原本核四的機組那個都叫舊核能我姑且他不講是說這個東西跟國際專業科學上有沒有背道而馳"},{"start":3356.67,"end":3382.657,"text":"或者是說用替代概念但既然卓院長也講新核能啊那為什麼你們114年明年的預算裡面沒有任何新核能研究計畫或是你們雄心壯志好啊我們來搞一個新核能啊美國沒有日本沒有還沒有發展出來我們先來搞啊那個戴主委在跟他書面或口頭報告我們編列了多少預算或計畫多少預算"},{"start":3386.223,"end":3409.01,"text":"一千五百四十三萬我們明年的總預算三兆結果關乎我們那麼重要的能源編了一千五百萬還有七千萬是在核融合還有多少七千萬還有七千萬在核融合這部分我們是會後再補充資料給委員在書面或是口頭跟紅委員說明好嗎謝謝"},{"start":3410.779,"end":3437.729,"text":"本席真的還是善意提醒我們都是生活在台灣所以能源問題是選擇我們都要共同面對所以要用專業來去講話如果說現在執政黨真的錯誤的能源主張因為國際趨勢已經沒有反核還有其實民進黨內部我們聽說也有一些人開始不反核但如果說死抱著神主牌不放然後我們又沒有專業判斷的話我覺得這樣會非常可惜"},{"start":3438.089,"end":3461.574,"text":"台灣面臨到關鍵的抉擇點請代理主委真的把心思放在專業的提供資料跟判斷上面謝謝紅委員、紅孟楷委員的質詢那代理主委請回請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好沒有議事錄確定那再來我們請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":3470.942,"end":3474.704,"text":"8月16日,陳東陽主委就任不到一年,突然請辭。他有說是因為他個人的生涯規劃,然後歸建大學回去了。但是外界還是眾說紛紜,因為畢竟時間這麼短暫就離開。"},{"start":3499.878,"end":3509.263,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":3520.543,"end":3542.858,"text":"基本上我就是依照目前依法完成這個進行我們的相關的管制工作好 我想依據喔 這個剛剛當然洪孟凱委員有問過啦這個核安會的組織法喔 核安會這個5到7人主委副主委都是行政院長這個來任命喔 那目前主委已經選缺兩個月了喔那先不管您到底會被徵處啦 不過剛剛您的意思說你都沒有被問到 對嗎"},{"start":3545.683,"end":3560.941,"text":"我沒有任何的這個指示或壓力都沒有不是我說有沒有人有沒有人來詢問過您可能要不爭取您為主委對這個事情沒有任何訊息都沒有任何訊息那有去問過別人嗎我就是做好我目前的任務"},{"start":3562.52,"end":3562.66,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":3581.416,"end":3607.274,"text":"目前因為是代理主委的工作所以就是代理主委的工作所以相關的同仁我們所有的團隊都會是齊心的把該做的工作做好好齊心很重要好那麼卓院長在前幾天我看他接受這個彭博新聞的一個專訪他提到了很多那其中我把它歸類一下那意思他就是說因為現在要因應AI還有半導體的用電需求"},{"start":3607.774,"end":3630.056,"text":"所以只要台灣對於核安還有核廢料處理的方向得以大家有共識政府對於新的核能技術的態度非常開放並且還有一點很重要就是他要求要留任廚藝核電廠的員工這一些都被解讀是對核電的態度在轉彎您的認知跟看法是?"},{"start":3631.448,"end":3645.272,"text":"我想院長對於這個核能的這個說明在之前他都有親自做了說明基本上我們就是依照現在目前的規劃來執行我們的工作那個副主委啊我想我再問你就不要再轉述院長了好嗎"},{"start":3647.373,"end":3656.897,"text":"在新核能的部分其實我們是有國研院在做相關的研究主委你可能真的要針對本席的這個問題我的問題很清楚就是說以上這些談話是不是一種對於核電的態度轉彎了尤其是本席看到要留任廚藝的核電廠員工"},{"start":3668.881,"end":3676.707,"text":"這看起來也說了是要為將來核能技術的發展要做一個好的準備去因應任何的修法所以是不是這就是一種對核電態度的轉彎"},{"start":3678.786,"end":3681.087,"text":"您的認為?所以你沒有感受到有任何的轉彎或是不一樣?好,好來我們繼續那其中卓院長他有提了一個就是說"},{"start":3706.093,"end":3717.405,"text":"涉及核能安全與核廢料處理的部分是他一直在提的但我想其實我們核安會我們法定的職責跟設立的目的一直以來其實就是核能安全還有核廢料的處理那過去的40年其實也都處理得很好也沒有發生什麼事情也就是說我們看到過去在台灣運轉的核一、核二、核三"},{"start":3729.617,"end":3743.183,"text":"都在核安會的確保之下安全運轉了40年所以其實本席跟很多的人其實是相信核安會的專業的那核安會自己本身有沒有辦法保證所有核能的運用都會安全才來使用可以保證嗎都會安全才會使用"},{"start":3748.514,"end":3776.242,"text":"基本上你不要再基本上了喔是不是都會安全才會使用這點是是還是不是只要回答我是還是不是符合安全管制的話是可以使用那你就回答我一個是就好了嘛好不好我想喔我終於知道為什麼沒有人來詢問你這個有沒有爭取的問題了我覺得要再專業一點必須要再對自己有自信一點啦否則在這個位置上面你怎麼領導大家微微諾諾的什麼事情不敢回答顧左右而言他到底是上層給你壓力還是你的專業不足啊"},{"start":3778.795,"end":3801.331,"text":"那麼我想您剛剛都說到了啦就是說不管是這個核能安全核配料的處理其實是過去我們大家專業一直在做但是呢我們看到這個卓院長其實一直在質疑啊一直對核安衛的專業是沒有信心的那我想希望希望這個我們這個代理主委可能要再加油一點我不知道你會代理多久但是呢希望能夠讓這個卓院長對你稍微有信心一點"},{"start":3803.552,"end":3825.231,"text":"十月十三日核一廠首次將使用過的燃料棒從燃料池移到室外的乾儲設施,也進行熱測一個月了,目前狀況如何?熱測是有兩組要做,目前第一組的運儲已經完成了,全程我們都有去做檢查,所以第一組已經到位"},{"start":3826.111,"end":3846.341,"text":"所以也算是有一個好的開始所以我想核安委應該要更積極一點來督導我們台電來繼續推動那但是今天要提到一個我想因為現在AI的用量大增然後再加上這個淨零碳排我們看到歐美很多先進的國家都已經重返核電使用了就連我相信您一定知道1979年"},{"start":3847.922,"end":3856.204,"text":"曾經發生二號機核心融毀以及一號機小部分受損的三里島核電廠都已經預計要在2028年重啟一號機的發電甚至於連微軟公司跟三里島核電廠的母公司美國聯合能源都還簽下20年的購電協議"},{"start":3867.927,"end":3895.058,"text":"所以我想再再顯示目前不管是科技業者或者尋求這個淨零轉型都是需要這個穩定還有龐大的能源供應這是一個首選所以本期在這邊要提醒不管核電會不會演繹或者你的新核電技術要不要用目前我們的核廢料也不管低階或高階那我相信核安會都是責無旁貸的所以要來督導那核安會對於未來在這個督導的作業上面你有沒有信心"},{"start":3896.502,"end":3897.462,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":3922.7,"end":3947.387,"text":"這件事我們要持續在關注國際上的事情所以您知道對嗎?知道嗎?對,知道所以何安威在,您知道但是我看到在網站最新的消息當中完全沒有揭露這件事啊所以呢這個是刻意要做隱瞞還是你覺得這件事不太重要還是什麼原因沒有去揭露啊那這個這兩案據你了解的輻射水外洩的原因是什麼?"},{"start":3949.42,"end":3974.075,"text":"報告委員只知道它是發燃料池有發生洩漏然後流入海洋因為我們持續去追蹤它相關的資訊非常少因為它相關的資訊非常少所以我們持續都在追蹤當中但是有這件事嘛對不對那是不是應該也是要揭露我想這個主委要去考量一下那再來呢你說你有去追蹤嘛那追蹤出來的結果有什麼是可以作為我們自己將來核電廠的借鏡"},{"start":3976.156,"end":3977.878,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":3993.174,"end":4014.926,"text":"我想主委這兩案其實很重要我想這個訊息要能夠掌握然後要能夠追蹤這一定要往下做下去但是還有一個在上個會期本席就問過說目前我們國內沒有檢測碳14跟碳129的能力這件事已經說了很久了但是事實上碳14跟碳129都會對人體造成危害那核安會說今年會開始推動智慧檢測的計畫來補齊碳14跟碳129的檢測能力那目前的進度是什麼"},{"start":4022.21,"end":4034.805,"text":"我們已經在進行當中今年我們是應該是要完成碳14檢測能力的建置然後明年是進行點129檢測能力的建置那在這個空窗期當中我們要怎麼確保民眾的安全"},{"start":4036.465,"end":4064.452,"text":"基本上因為碳14跟碳129這個檢測能力的這個問題的起源是在於這日本福島之後的川沸水的排放的發生那基本上我們在源頭的部分事實上在碳14跟碳129的部分都是在...欸主委啊我真的覺得你今天的答詢你自己回去看看帶子好好檢討一下本席問你的是啊空窗期要怎麼確保民眾的安全你跟我講源頭講一大堆你到底專不專業啊你告訴我空窗期怎麼處理啊"},{"start":4066.761,"end":4091.31,"text":"因為這涉及這個這個這個核種的這個專業是不是請主任來補充一下所以主委也不了解不是那個主席這一題他完全沒辦法答他的這個強度他的強度事實上是沒有那麼強的所以事實上目前這個在排排放的部分日本日方排放的部分其實這個我沒有在問你排放嘛拜託一下好不好主委"},{"start":4091.81,"end":4099.305,"text":"現在問你是說你現在明年才要建制後年才要建制那這空窗期怎麼處理怎麼維護我們國民的安全嘛健康安全嘛"},{"start":4100.715,"end":4108.677,"text":"主席能不能讓他回答一下能怎麼做簡單的講都好總之要回答一下基本上因為最主要的影響是川這部分我們已經建立了海洋資訊的一個跨部會的平台我們持續都有定期取樣檢測所以目前東藏核動輻射標準很大"},{"start":4126.86,"end":4127.601,"text":"其他兩個元素沒有影響?"},{"start":4138.669,"end":4141.711,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":4164.049,"end":4171.854,"text":"說明解釋好不好好謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢那張代主委請回那我們下一位請林金委員謝主席有請張代主委有請張代主委"},{"start":4186.329,"end":4206.014,"text":"大主委好我想核能的議題不只是擔當發電應用如此這種短淺勢力的利益而已長期來看我們必須預視到它所帶來的是世代是否正不正義的問題我們在享受現代核能利益的發電的同時我們也應該來想說它會為後代帶來多少的負擔"},{"start":4213.556,"end":4242.266,"text":"那在李正三前大法官的學術論文當中他有說憲法不僅是要保障當代人民的權利更應向後展望保障後世代的各式權利比如環境的保護社會資源的分配以及轉型正義因為後世代也是一群人所以他們也享有最基本生而為人的權利所以接下來我今天要以後世代應如何被保障為主題來跟您做探討"},{"start":4243.046,"end":4244.647,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":4273.226,"end":4279.09,"text":"那我們必須找到一個極長時間內可以保持安全的最終處置場那否則不然我們的後來的世代他要花時間在重新這個選址那我想我們就是因為我們這一代沒有承諾他們這一個好的一個組放場那所以請教主委核廢料的處理中長期的存放我想終究是世界"},{"start":4299.604,"end":4315.603,"text":"各國都很難思索的一個課題那我們來想想看說我們核安會跟台電也好我們對於中長期的主放長我們到底有什麼樣的想法那是否同意就是我剛剛的說法我們不能給後代有過度的負擔"},{"start":4316.664,"end":4337.121,"text":"主委我想核廢料的儲存因為核廢料設施確實是一個零幣設施所以事實上在推動上面需要很多的這個技術跟社會的溝通那今年的話其實在中長期儲存我們之前有這個非核家園有說要有中期儲存的長期那針對長期儲存也要有長期的選擇"},{"start":4341.084,"end":4344.308,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":4359.006,"end":4380.203,"text":"所以就是說這件事情確實是世界各國都存在的難題嘛所以核能發電這件事情我們要看到它後面核廢料怎麼處置的問題這才是一個重點那確保核廢料儲存的安全我想是核安會必須要確保跟把關所以我們看到"},{"start":4380.623,"end":4385.004,"text":"核一廠的這個竿組設施於今年10月23號開始展開熱測試那台灣首數的這個核廢料的燃料棒也將移出這個燃料池在竿組設施興建完成後那台灣也將進入所謂的高階核廢料的竿組時代那另外我們從行政院的施政報告我們也看出說因應軍事衝突所帶來的危害對於這個核關鍵設施也將"},{"start":4408.251,"end":4433.063,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4433.584,"end":4461.523,"text":"那基本上在軍事衝突的部分我們會跟相關的部會保持密切的這個合作也就是說在這個演練當中我們必須跟他有情資上面很迅速的掌握目前有這樣子的合作過嗎有在演練上這就納入情境演練然後再來就是說如果說這個甘煮這個煮飯場的這個過程中有發生一些意外這個部分也有做演練嗎"},{"start":4462.304,"end":4462.965,"text":"國園會已過去從事原子能科技研發所累積"},{"start":4480.468,"end":4500.472,"text":"技術為基礎轉投入成為新能源科技研發發展能源及核後端技術推廣產業應用我想是核安會報告中提到的目標之一報告中指出近期有多項綠能科技研發成果於國內外各大獎項評選中展露頭角"},{"start":4504.594,"end":4520.812,"text":"會產生核廢料的核分裂發電不符合所謂淨零碳排跟非核家園目標的價值新科技的應用當然就寫得極為迫切所以要請教主委說核安會跟國園會是否會跟其他的部會來進行跨部會的綠能科技研究"},{"start":4522.153,"end":4549.412,"text":"這部分其實就是國營院接下來的努力的方向目前他已經開始執行了所謂的智慧電網的一個研究那這部分其實也有跟台電做的一些合作所以台電已經納入他們技術在他們一些區域的那個電網上面做這個應用那另外他們也發展了這個燃料電池這個電解清還有這個資訊循環甚至生殖能方面他們通通都在進行包括風機葉片這個整合系統"},{"start":4550.933,"end":4551.273,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":4565.93,"end":4567.871,"text":"二、核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":4596.23,"end":4622.091,"text":"的三大倡議那陳如剛主委有討論到就是說我們核安會也會積極發展所謂綠能科技的研發那也會研究如何來進行智慧多元的儲能所以我要請教主委說這個COP29即將在11月22號閉幕那我們是否有跟環境部一同來關注目前的這個會議狀況那會議內容有沒有值得我們核安會要參考的政策方向"},{"start":4623.24,"end":4625.001,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":4642.927,"end":4645.45,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":4662.011,"end":4685.449,"text":"管理躍升計畫並預計在這個計畫中來推動輻射從業人員的安全文化所以據瞭解在這個計畫中我們將接觸到所謂的輻射員從業人員的安全防護的知識加強的教育所以我想就叫主委是說像民生行業也有很多的接觸輻射員不管是原子能研究或醫護人員"},{"start":4686.73,"end":4709.773,"text":"所以請問這樣安全的教育對象會優先從哪些人去推動?那會不會更普及更多的行業別?其實輻射的相關教育我們之前就都有要求只是現在我們希望建立更系統化的一個訓練的一個機制也提供這個輻射從業人員相關自主學習的一個量能那基本上我們這個計畫目前推動先以醫護人員開始"},{"start":4711.154,"end":4739.81,"text":"因為醫護人員會影響到500萬人受輻射檢測的這個相關使用的民眾的健康所以我們目前是先從第一年的計畫先從醫院的醫護人員開始好當然醫護人員跟所謂的我們原子能的研究人員當然是最優先的可是當然我想還是要請您再多設想一下我想這個教育的對象有可能在擴別其他的行業別讓我們再設想然後做擴大這樣的一個教育方的對象"},{"start":4741.27,"end":4769.697,"text":"我們會作為努力的方向謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝林一金委員的質詢那張代主委請回現在我們請林倩琦委員質詢謝謝主席那我請這個張代主委有請張代主委立院還有我們行政單位的同仁大家好"},{"start":4770.765,"end":4787.318,"text":"委員好,謝謝張代主席。本席今天還是針對大家比較關注的一個民生問題來跟您就教。也就是去年8月24號排放陸海的大家對於日本福島"},{"start":4788.678,"end":4803.467,"text":"核災含川廢水。您剛才在一些資訊裡面有提到那大家因為對食安這邊有一些疑慮所以核安會都會在海洋資訊平台裡面公布相關的資訊那你們也應該主動定期來發布漁產輻射檢測的結果讓大家來知道那你們在114年度單位預算裡面國家海域放射性物質擴散預警及安全評估應對計劃"},{"start":4816.994,"end":4837.249,"text":"這是跨部會的,荷蘭海委跟農業部都有一些合作所以去年你們也談到這個國際原能總署對於這個也邀請了中國、韓國、俄羅斯還有美國等11個國家做了調查小組然後覺得他是符合這個排放是符合國際安全標準的"},{"start":4838.67,"end":4846.798,"text":"但是臨近的國家還是對這個部分有一些疑慮所以目前你們的資訊平台的公佈雖然有這個跨部會輻射監測整合儀表板將台灣周邊的這個海域輻射的安全燈號漁獲物採樣監測及其中公佈的這個漁獲物採樣關於穿含量的資料但是裡面有一點本席這邊就教一下你們沒有名列"},{"start":4865.054,"end":4882.804,"text":"此外,我們秋刀魚的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀魚的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀魚的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀魚的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀漁獲的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀漁獲的捕撈作業應該對遠航漁獲的穿寒量檢測。此外,我們秋刀�"},{"start":4894.73,"end":4894.77,"text":"獲得區分。"},{"start":4913.968,"end":4914.048,"text":"主席"},{"start":4941.07,"end":4954.067,"text":"檢測站是在這個經費裡面也會再多設還是就對遠洋漁獲還有洋流它的整個的一個方向的這個流域你們這個部分有在做遠洋的這個部分多設一些監測點嗎?"},{"start":4955.52,"end":4955.58,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":4971.591,"end":4994.268,"text":"海保及漁業署來做合作,所以這部分也要看他們的時機。但是呢,我們自己其實除了這107點,其實我們也有努力的,譬如說就是在學研單位他們有出船去到海域的部分的話,我們現在也努力請他們也幫我們做一些取樣,但是在漁獲物的部分應該還是要以漁業署來"},{"start":4997.452,"end":5011.111,"text":"本席在這邊做一個提醒本席比較關心漁洋漁獲的這個區塊所以請你們注意一下再跟這個漁業署就以你們的專業然後洋流應該是你們的專業吧所以洋流的這個流向應該是你們可以了解的"},{"start":5011.331,"end":5035.381,"text":"要不然你們可能要跟國研院或海委會對於整個洋流的一個走向多做一些瞭解然後再考慮是不是增設一些點這是本席這邊的一個建議有洋的部分你們應該多注意一下我們會納入我們的平台討論會議好的謝謝那也記得給本席一個報告就是說你們討論了之後那對於本席這個建議你們是什麼一個做法"},{"start":5036.26,"end":5040.624,"text":"當然會裡面一直有跟本席談到藍瑜儲存廠放射性廢棄物的管理當然會裡面有一些比較專業的講法不過本席在這邊還是要就所看到的一些細節做一些提醒目前有許多廢料桶的桶身研究鏽蝕也扭曲變形"},{"start":5059.64,"end":5078.065,"text":"台電公司在儲藏場執行的三級品管制也不太周延好像跟規範的意思有點不符所以在96年到100年間有許多廢棄桶封存10年經抽查在上層的部分有鏽蝕、吊漆、桶蓋膨脹"},{"start":5079.905,"end":5104.574,"text":"累積油脂等現象這個部分呢可能是不是可以請你們在跨部會也再去做一些以你們專業做一些提醒雖然你們一直跟本席說可能有些地方的輻射會比這個藍雨來的高但是畢竟這個是我們所看到的物質性上的一個變化那所以你們是不是可以透過這個跨部會的平台就這個部分也去做一個提醒跟處理呢"},{"start":5105.886,"end":5131.706,"text":"報告委員剛才看到的應該都是屬於之前還沒有重新檢診的舊桶的部分那目前事實上核安會已經要求台電公司進行改善所以這部分都重新檢診裝桶所以沒有現在這樣子的問題那我們也在持續做相關的這個檢查跟視察好的謝謝那你是不是把相關報告給本席知道一下你們的期程然後跟目前的整體的一個狀況"},{"start":5133.407,"end":5154.74,"text":"最後就是核廢料管制的業務追蹤。在今年的6月,你們低放射性的廢棄桶有大概23萬桶。台電對於長子的選址,我想很多人也提過這個問題。所以本席想請問主委在113年到116年的放射性廢棄物安全管制與"},{"start":5156.841,"end":5183.61,"text":"審驗技術發展的計劃明確要辦理低放射性廢棄物的處理與儲存安全管制技術的研發您有這三項細部計劃本席想要了解目前的進度另外是不是可以協助台電低放射性廢棄物的候選場址的選址及集中式儲存應變方案之執行我想這很多人都關心過不知道主委代理主委您這邊"},{"start":5184.87,"end":5205.356,"text":"對於這個事情的回應。針對協助台電地方身份信用選址之場址及其中處事應變方案其實相關的一些準則我們都有已經建置提供給台電公司做他選址的一些的參據那之後他們也要提出評估報告那至於這個前面的這三項的研究技術的話其實是"},{"start":5206.696,"end":5220.348,"text":"因該是說我們持續在滾動精進,針對我們安全技術去收集這個國外相關的一個技術來解釋我們目前技術的這個精進的這個方向那這部份細節是不是我們在補充給委員想要了解的是說按那一個比較具體的處理跟可能的地點"},{"start":5229.796,"end":5243.9,"text":"最後一個就是我們能源的配品這邊跟您請教一下因為太陽光電雖然容量逐年上升可是離我們的目標值也有點距離風場也是海事工程還有船舶調度的作業都趕不上變化我們在2025年到2050年綠能要總發電量兩成逾六成的一個政策目標目前好像都還是有很大的差距"},{"start":5256.024,"end":5279.899,"text":"所以在去年聯合國的COP28會議開完了之後本席還是要問您一下核能重啟的運轉可能性然後如果哪一天變化了你們可以協助台電這個區塊嗎我說政策變化的話所以第一個部分是重啟的可能性那第二個部分是協助運轉的可行性"},{"start":5282.322,"end":5306.648,"text":"報告委員那針對這部分能源政策真的不是在核安會的權責範圍之內不過我相信這一陣子不論是院長或部長都針對這個部分都有做過一些回應基本的主要的原則就是在核安全保核費能夠處理還有社會有共識的前提之下來進行這個相關的討論那這部分的話那核安會的話作為安全管制機關的話我們會依照這個"},{"start":5307.768,"end":5328.394,"text":"政策需求,我們會配合,畢竟核安會也是政府的一環,所以我們會做好我們的安全管制工作。好的,謝謝。那我就請我們更積極的來處事,好嗎?好,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝林倩琪委員的質詢。那也請張代主委請回。好,那再來我們請張雅玲委員質詢。OK,好,謝謝。"},{"start":5341.866,"end":5342.367,"text":"有請代理主委"},{"start":5349.83,"end":5374.401,"text":"委員好主委好我想大家都非常關切就是核一廠在12月3號已經開始了室內乾儲存的乾儲場的熱測試那也預計今年底就會完成那如果測試完成之後呢臺電就會將相關的資料提供給核安會來申請運轉那順利通過的話我們的核一廠的燃料棒就可以開始採用乾式儲存那目前呢各核驗場的室外乾儲場除了"},{"start":5375.862,"end":5392.39,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金�"},{"start":5403.461,"end":5417.763,"text":"報告委員那個核一二廠的室內乾儲目前台電公司統一一個標目前正在公告當中等到公告收集廠家意見後他們就會正式進行招標作業"},{"start":5418.874,"end":5443.531,"text":"嗯,我想問一下,就是因為我知道之前核一啊,它是因為金額嘛,金額太低,所以大家不太願意來標嘛,那我想我們知道說,那你們覺得核一、核二現在的金額目前,大家是會有意願來標的嗎?呃,報告委員,這部分因為涉及商務,不是核安徽跟...我說你們,你們關於,呃,你們接觸,你們接觸,應該之前有先了解過嘛,大家,不然你再開一個標,可能還是會留標啊。"},{"start":5446.469,"end":5467.198,"text":"報告委員,台電公司它其實就是經有合一廠招標不順的經驗,那他們有提高價金,但是至於這個部分,因為是屬於涉及台電公司的那個商務合約,所以我們就沒有…好,沒關係,好,了解了。那剛剛其實也有委員來了解就是說有關於到底我們這個"},{"start":5468.839,"end":5470.7,"text":"核廢選址辦公室"},{"start":5483.072,"end":5483.372,"text":"需經濟部推動?"},{"start":5505.69,"end":5513.13,"text":"所以也就是說我們負責管制他們負責推動所以剛才說成立這個核廢專案辦公室是屬於經濟部推動的一環"},{"start":5514.951,"end":5536.803,"text":"對,但我想了解就是說第一放的最終處置場設置條例法規的主管機關是核安會嘛,主辦是經濟部,但如果未來由經濟部核廢辦公室進行高放的最終處置設置條例的時候,主委,請問主委,就是核安會在這邊還是就是負責這個安全管制的這個部分對嗎?"},{"start":5537.924,"end":5539.046,"text":"關於核安的部分"},{"start":5553.467,"end":5570.354,"text":"我們現在其實都有在學校進行實兵演習那是有一天如果不幸發生核子事故的時候也會責定避難收容處所鄰近學校作為安置學校那我想了解就是在我們進行核電廠除役的時候甚至是未來進行最終處置場的選址的過程中"},{"start":5570.794,"end":5571.134,"text":"獲得避難能力"},{"start":5587.837,"end":5604.924,"text":"及面對事故的能力。所以我想要了解在CRC裡面就是國際兒童人權公約裡面其實有講到兒童有權利參與各個共事務所以我想了解我們目前是不是在這些教材裡面在這些溝通裡面有沒有納入兒童的意見"},{"start":5606.124,"end":5607.826,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":5624.744,"end":5626.486,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":5654.104,"end":5657.367,"text":"這部分我們來研議這部分給我們三個月的時間因為這部分我們肯定也要諮詢一些專家的意見"},{"start":5671.633,"end":5675.015,"text":"我統計了109年到113年總共57個場次高中以下只有占其中的12場那我想要問我們是不是還有可能"},{"start":5702.071,"end":5729.146,"text":"讓學校有更多的場次呢?是因為為什麼只有12場?是因為大家來申請的很少?還是大家不知道這個訊息?還是大家來了覺得聽不太懂?到底是哪個原因?目前我們相關的資訊都有在網路上公開有需要都可以來申請那高中的場次這邊比較少的部分我相信因為可能也有很多環境的因素因為其實越到"},{"start":5730.649,"end":5754.771,"text":"閱到高中其實大家的升學壓力也很大但是這部分我們在這個資訊推廣上面我們會去努力跟學校這個去這個做相關的這個宣導我想因為這個活動宗旨這個活動宗旨就是來推廣原子能科普教育可是這個次數四年下來只有12場等於一年平均只有三場一年大概就只有"},{"start":5755.452,"end":5771.988,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":5772.325,"end":5795.524,"text":"我們在我們的科普教育的部分對科普教育的部分我們可不可以一樣三個月之內因為我想這跟何少益建議是不是可以合併給我一個報告好不好好是那我們怎麼樣來積極的推廣好不好讓更多人了解那再來就是說我想要問主委代理主委就是說我們當時為什麼核研所要轉型成國研院用一個行政法人的身份這個原因是什麼"},{"start":5797.406,"end":5822.347,"text":"因為在主改的時候其實是把這個原能會改成三級的核安會的時候就希望成立一個獨立的安全管制的機關那事實上國研院是希望把它轉成法人的話那依照國外的經驗事實上這會讓國研院有更多的彈性不管他在禁用人力或者他們在研究的計劃的方面都可以有更多的彈性來發展他這個研究的量能"},{"start":5822.907,"end":5837.743,"text":"好,我想,但是我想我們希望,我們剛剛講了嘛,希望是可以提升研究量的嘛,但是主委可以看到我們從109年到現在我們扣除112年,如果我們扣除承接台電4年期計劃簽約金3.9億的話,我們112年的簽約金只剩下6.7億"},{"start":5843.489,"end":5865.74,"text":"所以大概其實是沒有我們轉型成國運院之後我們的研究量似乎也沒有提高不管是從簽約金來看或是從寄轉寄服的收入都是逐漸下滑的甚至113年的平均收入可能都不會到112年那這個似乎沒有達到我們當時轉成行政法人上面應該要有的一個業務成果啦這部分我們可以怎麼樣改善嗎"},{"start":5868.39,"end":5894.46,"text":"國運院轉型後,因為它有一些技術量能的研發跟各個部會的合作的部分我是不是請院長來做一個說明報告委員,因為這個1、2年通常我們接一個計畫大概都兩年前有個前置期才能接到所以這個1、2年看起來簽約金是前一兩年就談的,自籌經費聽不太清楚"},{"start":5896.641,"end":5922.854,"text":"所以我是說我們的經費112年這個事實上降下來是由於是前一兩年的因素那我們法人化以後真正的績效會到114年開始會逐漸的呈現自籌經費應該會有某種程度的上漲依照我們的規劃目前我們因為運轉就是經營上營運上有更大的彈性用人也有更多的選擇但是"},{"start":5924.415,"end":5952.181,"text":"因為在法人化以後我們人數因為離退的關係或者請求轉到其他單位安置的關係所以人數大概降了大概兩成所以人力方面也比較不足跟先前的但我們今年人力已經慢慢補回來從今年開始那114年開始自籌經費我們期待應該會有某種程度的一個上揚因為12年應該是谷底跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":5953.433,"end":5979.979,"text":"所以你的意思是說我們在114年就可以看到我們不管是在簽約金或是寄轉寄服收入都可以超越我們1、2年跟1、3年的水準了是嗎?是是我們是這樣的努力在爭取努力在爭取好那我們之後我們就是來繼續監督謝謝謝謝委員謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢那我們代主委也請回下一位柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":5986.25,"end":5991.152,"text":"核三廠在一號季在今年七月大概就停止運轉那二號季是明年五月就停機那我想請問這兩部機組是否已經拿到核安會的廚藝許可了目前還沒有因為拿到廚藝許可的話最主要兩個機關的審查就是"},{"start":6012.199,"end":6013.741,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":6035.402,"end":6040.665,"text":"而且我覺得張峰代理主委你應該對這個案件是非常的了解因為你那時候就是屬於我們核能管制處的處長所以從頭到尾你應該都知道所以目前為止已經分為四區五十五公頃的部分已經開始要來做這樣的一個處理那我第一個先請問你這個安全的評估報告目前來說你看1111年5月3號然後召開第一次審查會議"},{"start":6063.499,"end":6065.504,"text":"三月三號,隔年的三月三號就已經完成了,所以你同一台電的報告只花了十個月的時間,這個安全沒有任何的問題嗎?"},{"start":6073.385,"end":6075.788,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6094.807,"end":6097.069,"text":"台電在核三廠內做光電的一個工程是不是要經過環評?他們有經過這個詢問這個相關的管制機關"},{"start":6118.479,"end":6122.142,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6135.115,"end":6138.136,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6162.004,"end":6162.705,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6183.541,"end":6187.185,"text":"這當然需要環評我告訴你因為我們的核三廠是在三坡地所以據了解為什麼現在大家急著都要趕快來去蓋因為如果你要急著蓋光電廠因為你必須要配合如果你現在不蓋的話你馬上要經過環評啊你環評在三坡地你是完全沒有辦法的啊"},{"start":6204.522,"end":6205.122,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":6235.423,"end":6236.444,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6255.307,"end":6260.151,"text":"回覆4月27號6天時間你就可以讓他開工6天時間你就馬上核准了還有呢還有一個規定他是告訴你說這樣的一個計劃你必須要在111年到113年要辦理此案如果你沒有辦法在這個時間點之內辦完了之後呢要提供新的期程規劃那我要告訴主委"},{"start":6280.365,"end":6282.266,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6298.012,"end":6299.193,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6314.349,"end":6329.256,"text":"你們為什麼可以放水?你剛剛信誓旦旦告訴我你們現在是完全用安全其他都推給能源其他都推給其他部會可是光是在安全的部分你們都沒有辦法做好把關嗎?事實擺在這個地方啊這就是我們所看到的啊那我請問你113年12月號才開工他需不需要提出新的規範照你們的規範裡面你是需要提出來的他們有嗎?他們有嗎?"},{"start":6346.021,"end":6371.9,"text":"我們請核安安回應誰能夠回答我這個問題首先剛才委員說說我們收到以後6個天就同意其實在之前事實上我們都有進行審查那這個函的話只是針對他影響評估報告之後續管制事項做的說明那你就把你那些審查部分拿給我你們這個發函之後你馬上就給我還有你如何解釋地面型的太陽光墊的這個部分"},{"start":6372.657,"end":6375.098,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":6396.443,"end":6404.028,"text":"三個月之內要補足目前為止我都不曉得是不是我們的左院長已經忘記這個單位讓大家已經變成非常的邊緣化然後信誓旦旦告訴我們我們要來做這樣很多的安全更何況我要問我們的預算當中有關於儲存這個所謂第三期的這個中期儲存場的部分裡面"},{"start":6416.417,"end":6419.858,"text":"目前為止沒有任何的一個訊息然後呢包括核安會還編了兩千多萬連台電都編了兩千多萬但是呢我為大家報區的緣故是什麼你們每一次發函請這個非核家園推動小組來開會的時候他們對你們的態度也一點都不積極然後呢每次給你們的回覆都一副好像事不關己的樣子可是在審預算的時候在編預算的時候"},{"start":6444.466,"end":6449.692,"text":"有關於中期儲存的這樣子的一個部分你們還是變了兩千多萬台電也變了兩千多萬可是給我們的結果還是沒有一個結果所以你覺得我們這個預算要怎麼給呢?我們這個預算該怎麼給呢?這才是我們今天很大的一個問題不是嗎?"},{"start":6460.953,"end":6463.074,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":6480.786,"end":6491.115,"text":"所以我說說今天雖然在這邊質詢但是也為你們感到有一些的委屈因為你們所發出去的東西沒人鳥這件事情這個東西怎麼樣來處理這東西怎麼樣來處理然後最重要的是這個部分本席因為時間到了本席絕對會在這個預算的過程當中要求這個小組好好的這個非核推動小組裡面來跟我們講個明白否則這個預算"},{"start":6507.329,"end":6516.272,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核"},{"start":6545.577,"end":6548.4,"text":"謝謝主席,有請核安會張代主委備詢。"},{"start":6555.135,"end":6581.056,"text":"會員好是剛剛都已經有詢問過您未來的動向了我就不多問了也希望我們一起來努力做核能安全的守護那我想世界各國都在持續的演進各國為了達成淨零碳排或者低碳的能源的目標還有當然還有發展我們的科技跟AI都將核電廠重啟或研議來作為這個策略"},{"start":6582.318,"end":6597.75,"text":"已經列出來我相信你們應該都看過應該要看到爛了啦美國、日本、韓國、英國、法國甚至連三里島核電廠2028都要重啟主委您怎麼看待現在全球吹起的強烈反核潮反回核電潮"},{"start":6602.596,"end":6627.041,"text":"我想基本上國際每個國家都會針對自己的能源需求來做規劃我國也是針對我們自己的能源需求我們自己的能源需求就是需要有穩定的能源其實和台灣鄰近國情相似的韓國跟日本都在改變尤其我們現在又說台灣是科技世界的中心我們現在內閣又說是AI內閣結果全世界的AI公司科技大廠都在開始擁抱核電"},{"start":6627.921,"end":6631.684,"text":"亞馬遜公佈要採用核電的計劃已經在採購Google也宣布直接要建造7座核反應爐微軟是直接預購了甚至呢這個2028要重啟的山梨島核電廠他直接已經要付錢了結果呢我就想請教"},{"start":6646.414,"end":6661.124,"text":"主委這個怎麼看待這個科技、國際都是在返回核電賴政府卻視而不見您說台灣要以我們自己的情況來判斷是怎麼樣核能一到了台灣就不能作為選項嗎?核能不是一個安全的選擇嗎?"},{"start":6663.356,"end":6665.377,"text":"所以你們不用管有沒有核能啦?是不是這樣?"},{"start":6680.66,"end":6695.437,"text":"核能使不使用不是我們的權責。哦,然後呢,就那這樣如果我們不用核能你們是不是整個會就可以撤掉了?我們全部預算砍掉啦,你非核家園還在啊,就不用了嘛,對不對?因為你不參與決策嘛,也不提供建議,你們要不要提供研究建議?"},{"start":6697.003,"end":6724.551,"text":"對於我們的這個業務的部分我們已經從運轉的管制逐漸隨著基礎的狀況轉到廚藝的相關管制而且核安會的事實上我們的業務核電廠的管制是其中的一部分我們還有其他所有的其他輻射防護啊這些的管制那核電廠的研議你們會不會提出研究建議會不會提供評估到時候要評估到底能不能研議是不是你們也會有專員在處理對吧這是你們處理的吧"},{"start":6726.374,"end":6742.351,"text":"這個是不是使用這個可行性的部分不是屬於我們的權責那如果到時候真的要做研議評估如果政府有需要我們提出技術意見的時候我們會配合執行那現在是不是只差在修法我們現在的研議的部分研議的部分現在是不是只差在修法"},{"start":6744.099,"end":6761.679,"text":"目前這個有多位立委有提出修法建議我們尊重委員的提案權那現在既沒有修法我們要往這個這個停止核電的情況要非核家園然後我們又要編這些預算那核安會明年度的預算跟工作目標有沒有要調整啊"},{"start":6762.435,"end":6788.758,"text":"我們並沒有編列修法的預算我們編列的是我們廚藝相關的管制預算還有這個核三廠二號均運轉中安全的管制的運轉那現在你廚藝許可也還沒發下來啊你編那麼多預算幹嘛核三的廚藝許可是因為我們也要等到環境部的那邊審查結束之後我們要一併考慮才會核發廚藝許可那我們的廚藝計畫的部分我們已經執行完成我們的作業我想不管怎麼樣啦也希望同仁要提早受訓學習相關廚藝的知識啦"},{"start":6790.439,"end":6809.892,"text":"這個許可還有未來的這些建設都應該要儘早做好準備那我再來還要請教一下主委這個卓魁這個否認核電是緊急能源的選項但是我們賴新澤總統去台灣大學演講的時候台灣大學的時候演講說面對學生的提問"},{"start":6813.534,"end":6842.333,"text":"賴清德當時的回應是相關單位正研議如何將核電作為暫時備用能源喔這個是我們賴清德總統所說的請教主委賴清德總統將核電作為暫時備用能源的說法安不安全可行性高不高我想就誠如剛才立委所說其實這是一個有要如何去研究那我相信經濟部、台電公司他們有做相關的評估所以目前才會有這個希望有三個前提之下再來討論"},{"start":6844.417,"end":6846.743,"text":"全世界沒有一個核電廠"},{"start":6848.317,"end":6876.952,"text":"是在戰爭中要去運作的這根本就是反過來的一個策略我們平常應該是反而應該讓核電來幫我們穩定的發電不要用廢發電用愛發電結果我們的總統竟然發表的是一個違反全世界核能安全的評論您覺得暫時使用核電來作為備用能源安全嗎這核安會可以說話了吧不要再踢給台電了吧不要再踢給總統了吧這顆球你要接下來了吧"},{"start":6879.281,"end":6899.779,"text":"我想基本上這個如果在針對運轉中的核能電廠的話國際上有一個共識就是不主動攻擊核能電廠這在烏鴉戰爭的時候其實有這樣子的一個情形大家都可以這個注意到我們平常都不相信敵人啊我們要料敵從寬啊民進黨也說要抗中保台啊怎麼我們現在就相信敵人了呢"},{"start":6901.642,"end":6915.734,"text":"我只是舉烏鴉戰爭的一個經驗我想我們還是要理性看待好不好不要隨著你的思緒隨著你自己的意識形態轉彎尤其我們核安會應該是要以科學為依據的"},{"start":6916.955,"end":6934.018,"text":"我想賴清德總統自己現在也鬆動了說不排除新核能也要開發多元的能源想請教核安會現在SMR小型核反應的廠研發的資源是不是有增加"},{"start":6935.194,"end":6960.996,"text":"目前我們在國園院是有編列這個預算從100萬增加到1543萬那我們再來看還有什麼呢為什麼你們自己願意增加全世界都在做SMR所以這個我們再來看都太多資料了我想你們全部都有了那我們再來看核融合我們現在核融合有國家實驗研究院還有高速研究中心國園院都有在編列"},{"start":6963.178,"end":6968.585,"text":"國科會有在編列這個我們現在的這個計畫的整體的研發預算是不是也有增加"},{"start":6969.667,"end":6994.125,"text":"我們在核融核的部分我們在接下來兩年我們是編了7000萬的不只7000萬啦國務院114到116年還要編列9000萬來研發核融核嘛不是要非核家園嗎所以不要再拿這些關鍵詞來呼嚨大家啦明明我們就是要進入新的時代卓院長也暗示了"},{"start":6995.205,"end":7023.012,"text":"賴總統也暗示了合作董事長也暗示了大家都在暗示核安會要擁抱新核能結果呢您現在在這裡我們一問到核能的問題一問到國際的趨勢就說那是別人的事那是別的國家別的公司這是別的單位台電我想真的是很希望核安會要發出真誠內心的建議不只是童子賢啦"},{"start":7023.792,"end":7044.353,"text":"台達電的創辦人跟電力最有關的他也說啊台灣非用核電不可啊錯誤的決定要趕快承認錯誤所以我今天只希望告訴您說賴總統卓院長都鬆口可以接受新核能了齁主委你要不要率先接下新核家園"},{"start":7048.122,"end":7069.734,"text":"新核家園省主牌我幫你做好你願不願意出列我們來接下來嘛大家暗示你很辛苦啊民事可以嗎報告立委我們在國語委員已經做相關的研究的部分對但是核安會不負責政策的決定我們目前做的是研究發展"},{"start":7070.27,"end":7098.419,"text":"那我們下次就新核安全家園是不是就可以接下可以吧考慮看看後面有人點頭了好沒有關係我們下次再做再做一個審主辦因為我時間用完了所以我想啦從卓院長到賴總統都暗示了新核能是可以考慮的希望核安會在相關的預算人員還有研發計劃的研究上面持續的用理性來看待好不好可以嗎"},{"start":7099.379,"end":7099.6,"text":"陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":7129.885,"end":7133.128,"text":"最近關於我們核一的熱測室的這個作業啟動並且會開始移出燃料棒相關這個動態民眾都十分的關心那核一廠呢室外的乾式儲存廠之前是因為新北市政府一直都沒有核可這個水保的計劃"},{"start":7149.262,"end":7154.004,"text":"導致嚴當11年無法使用後來是因為台電在官司上有勝訴所以新北市政府就因此來核准並且在10月15號取得水保計劃完工證明之後呢開始來執行熱測室的作業那台電這個熱測室作業預計辦兩個月之後的時間之後就大概到12月15號會議務管法的第18條向核安會來申請運轉執照那我這邊想請教主委"},{"start":7177.515,"end":7203.906,"text":"台電提出申請後核安會為我們這邊來審查運轉執照需要多久的時間?基本上我們是定3個月但不包含台電公司他答覆的狀況所以基本上如果是資料是齊備的話是3個月的時間那運轉執照之前有說會先發給20年那以現在的規劃還是一樣只要他提出申請你們核可之後就是規劃20年的時間嗎?對目前看起來台電是要申請20年"},{"start":7205.273,"end":7232.517,"text":"那有沒有預計說台電他在什麼時候必須要完成室外乾除這個燃料棒的移轉這部分就看他到時候提出他的這個申請的時候他的整個計畫的規劃其實民眾真的都非常的關心就是關於這些核安的議題目前合一的室外乾除廠是不夠容納所有的這些用過的燃料棒那麼室內的乾除的這個設置進度請問現在是如何"},{"start":7233.587,"end":7247.664,"text":"目前還在招標作業當中還在招標作業當中對因為之前有一些不順就是剛才也有委員提到就是好像是他們在招標的價金的部分太低所以他們做了一些調整目前這個核一二廠都仍然在招標的作業當中調整過後現在還在招標當中就對了齁"},{"start":7249.847,"end":7274.686,"text":"其實本席這邊要提醒核安會其實核一的這個移轉燃料棒是民眾都非常關心的一個議題我已經重複的強調很多次所以我這邊要請核安會這邊定時的揭露目前的進度以及相關安全需知讓民眾可以放心就是說所有的狀況都是在我們核安會的掌握裡面那我們可以隨時的掌握進度隨時的了解這個進度是如何讓民眾可以知道是的"},{"start":7276.767,"end":7280.308,"text":"接下來我想請教主委新聞報導有說目前我們核四廠的這個前廠長有公開表示只要燃料還有空間可以存放用過的燃料棒核一廠是可以繼續沿用意思也就是說在台電移轉所有的燃料棒到乾式儲存廠之後呢核一廠是可以再度使用主委你覺得這可能嗎這是安全的嗎這樣的說法是有負責任的嗎"},{"start":7304.017,"end":7330.313,"text":"第一個我想第一個就是要有法律依據然後另外一個其實核一廠他已經取得廚藝許可他也進行了部分設備的一個拆除的工作那事實上他進入廚藝期間他的整個組織架構都會隨著廚藝工作的需求來做改變所以無論是在這個拆除的進度還有在這個人力還有設備維護方面都做了一些更改所以不是像所說的這麼簡單就是把用過燃料移出他就可以運轉"},{"start":7330.993,"end":7338.998,"text":"所以他這樣的說法是不安全的並不是說把空間挪出來之後那個所有的就可以繼續運轉因為已經做了不一樣的變更了其實核一廠從67年開始商轉一號機、二號機分別在107年及108年就有廚藝那依照目前核管法相關的規定進入廚藝階段的核能廠代表它的核子反應器是永久的停止運轉"},{"start":7355.307,"end":7370.548,"text":"是沒有再次啟動的空間所以說如果核電廠他是真的要研議其實依法他還要提交許多相關安全的分析及報告還要經過一些相關的審查的程序不可能是說說研用就研用是吧是"},{"start":7372.35,"end":7375.212,"text":"本席也希望說核安會這邊你們應該嚴正的澄清我們不是民眾可能會被誤導這樣子的言論就是說想演繹就演繹也不能讓這樣子的言論來讓民眾覺得恐慌"},{"start":7388.458,"end":7410.255,"text":"這個非官政治最重要的是安全主要是以安全的角度來考量以你們核安會的專業來看待來管理相關的這些事宜不能冒任何的風險所以這個部分我希望核安會你們也要適度的提出該澄清的言論讓民眾可以安心說因為這樣是是而非的這樣的言論是會讓民眾覺得很焦慮的是"},{"start":7412.506,"end":7440.242,"text":"那所以說你們可以提出一些對於這些言論有所澄清的一些聲明在你們的一些公告或者網站上嗎我們會來適度檢視如何來做一個澄清不會引起另外其他的誤會好的那接下來我請教主委請問您覺得即便我國未來不再興建或發展核能我們是不是應該還是要掌握國際間未來核能的技術跟發展的狀況您覺得呢"},{"start":7442.102,"end":7470.567,"text":"是的我想作為這個管制機關我們確實要這個持續掌握國際間相關發展的一個趨勢其實一直以來新核能的技術的發展在國際間關心現在都非常關心小型的核反應爐就是SMR的這個進度那本席其實也有在呼籲說核安會你們要有一定程度的了解相關的技術及學術上的這樣的精進其實核能安全的掌握我們相關的訊息是一定要有了解的主委您覺得"},{"start":7471.947,"end":7497.581,"text":"對其實在核能這個掌握的部分事實上我們有請國研院對於相關的議題他們都要去掌握這個新的技術因為我們自己有沒有新建或發展核能是我們的選擇但是在技術上在學術上的了解是我們必須具備的那台灣不能自我排除在國際技術之外這跟我們是不是發展核能是沒有相關的就如同卓院長說的台灣不應該跟國際技術脫節"},{"start":7500.583,"end":7516.314,"text":"所以本席這邊也要告訴核安會核安會是我國核能安全技術及防護最高的機關希望核安會這邊可以掌握相關的訊息與技術所以我這邊要請教主委目前核安會或是核研所有沒有投入相關的預算來進行相關研究"},{"start":7519.016,"end":7521.198,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7534.093,"end":7535.775,"text":"國際間各國發展技術的收集訊息非常重要我們必須了解我們周邊的國家哪一些國家他們的動態這是對我們自己最基本的安全防護保護"},{"start":7549.554,"end":7563.892,"text":"因為說未來不再興建或發展核能自我排除在國際的這個技術之外我們必須要與時俊進我相信主委您有這樣的認知那我相信我們核研所這邊也對相關的訊息有所掌握這才能跟得上國際技術的這個脈動"},{"start":7566.255,"end":7594.687,"text":"接下來我想請教關於科普教育的問題核安會這幾年都有陸續辦理科普教育來推廣這些核能科普的知識核能科技研發的成果及相關安全管制的業務本席是非常樂見也非常支持科普教育的推廣也覺得應該要多多益善但是本席看到核安會辦理的相關的科普活動的這些場次的人次發現有一年辦在本席的選區和美高中的人次是非常非常的少"},{"start":7595.447,"end":7599.011,"text":"在109年的這一場是8月22到8月23號其實他是週末那其實如果你們沒有做適度的一些宣傳在週末應該比較不會有人主動要去學校裡面參加活動所以這個舉辦的這個場地舉辦的這個場所的選擇非常的重要本期覺得說你們"},{"start":7615.126,"end":7620.527,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核"},{"start":7638.731,"end":7647.456,"text":"場所可以再評估因為你們要爭取到你們來辦一場非常非常的不容易那如果以這樣子的人次來講對這樣子相關的資源資訊是有點可惜的所以這個部分希望說你們可以對你們選擇的這個場址要經過審慎的評估那再來我也希望說你們可以多辦理這相關的場次因為我覺得一年兩場是真的有點少"},{"start":7660.802,"end":7662.903,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7678.714,"end":7697.23,"text":"正對委員建議我們在這個辦理長子的部分這個能夠評估在人流比較多的地方我們會來繼續努力來強化那其實另外的話跟委員報告一下我們其實除了我們自辦的這個科普教育的話我們現在也有機局跟各部會他們如果有做相關的科普的這個相關的宣導我們都會也會加入來協辦"},{"start":7698.308,"end":7713.278,"text":"也希望說場次可以再增加啦這個部分好好努力好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢張代主委請回再我們請郭育晴委員質詢郭育晴委員質詢完我們休息好謝謝主席有請這個張代理主委有請張代理主委"},{"start":7731.599,"end":7755.914,"text":"委員好代理主委早安這個國民黨的羅志強委員他說這個核電研議最大的阻礙是核安會主張研議需要5年前申請他有這樣子的一個言論那我想這個規定會這樣定一定是有他的安全性的一個考量那我個人是比較不同意這樣的說法啦不曉得代理主委您怎麼看"},{"start":7757.086,"end":7775.632,"text":"我們會定這五年的話其實也有參考國際上的做法確實是以我們安全管制在審核的需求以及電廠做相關強化的需求來定這五年是好我就舉以下幾個例子第一個我想要請教的就是這個核電廠其實都會定期來做這個檢查跟維修"},{"start":7776.072,"end":7786.526,"text":"但是畢竟它其實還是有一些零件是無法修復也無法更換或者是檢查不出老化那比方說像地下的消防管線、電纜還有這個圍組體等等所以這個在設計的時候其實當初可能沒有把所謂的我們要更換或者我們要維修這個部分考量進去"},{"start":7794.996,"end":7817.822,"text":"第二、當年我們在核發運轉執照的時候有沒有考慮過現在我們的天氣其實已經開始做不一樣的一個改變了這是全球性的在極端氣候的一個狀況我們怎麼因應另外還有剛剛其實業務委員提到的暫時如果遇到了軍事恐攻的部分的話我們應該怎麼因應那我想剛剛其實這個代理主委你有提到"},{"start":7819.262,"end":7821.403,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":7845.968,"end":7846.248,"text":"二、國際淨零趨勢綠能"},{"start":7863.695,"end":7880.717,"text":"但是問題是我們的核三廠的兩部反應器其實都不是歐盟認定的綠能的機型這也是要考慮到裡頭那第五點我相信是最重要的一點就是沒有任何一個縣市願意接受核廢料"},{"start":7882.599,"end":7900.99,"text":"張代理主委我剛剛所念的這些是不是都是很重要的考量是的跟立委報告其實核電廠從建廠之初當然就必須針對天然災害做一些評估但是事實上天然災害隨著時間會有一些變化所以基本上電廠在運轉期間它都要滾動減潮"},{"start":7903.772,"end":7930.794,"text":"所以一段時間都要就像剛才提到的地震的部分那我想很多人都知道事實上臺電公司有這個委託國證中心做了這個一些地震的評估那目前還在做這個相關風險評估的部分那另外針對地下管系的部分確實也純如這個立委剛剛提到這也是一個重要的一環所以在這部分他運轉期間都要建立相關的檢測方案甚至把部分的消防水管來做一個地上化的一個工作對"},{"start":7931.834,"end":7956.899,"text":"那針對這個戰爭的部分因為剛才沒有時間講完我再補充一下其實針對戰爭的部分我們也在輔導之後針對他們的這個戰爭部分的強化也就是大範圍的攻擊核電廠的時候造成的失火這些事實上我們在緊急應變的部分也建立了相關的一些防護的措施所以這些都需要來滾動檢討尤其是最後一點我講的就是核廢料的問題沒有一個現實表態"},{"start":7958.479,"end":7961.021,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":7986.059,"end":7987.681,"text":"學術研究補助成效有限投入產業人數不多核安會在補助學術合作研究計畫總共培育161人核於未來三年重點產業所需只有31位"},{"start":8010.083,"end":8033.42,"text":"那補助32項的計畫有成果的目前承攬的這個所謂的這個政府的業務的也只有11項那這個部分是不是有一些具體的目標因為我覺得這個第一在人才的部分其實不到20%再來在計畫的部分呢也不到30%喔那這個部分是不是有一些比較具體的一些計畫跟目標因為我發現這個好像成效有限啊"},{"start":8035.079,"end":8060.871,"text":"這部分因為比較多的細節我們可不可以在會後再來補充沒有問題那會後再補充給我們辦公室最後我想要問的就是說關於我們的科普的教育當然我們說科普的這個策展佔這個總經費的部分其實也佔據了一半但是問題是當今其實核能領域最重要的就是核能的能源規劃的問題"},{"start":8062.291,"end":8084.281,"text":"我們可能有時候還沒有辦法達到就是能夠達到的所謂的願景的一個說明那我在想其實雖然我們要跟民眾來做溝通但是我們能不能夠真正達到跟社會輿論的溝通或者是在民眾他們雖然有的部分他們是肯定所謂的核電的安全但是到目前為止其實對於所謂的核廢料的處置的問題我們似乎好像避而不談"},{"start":8090.523,"end":8115.318,"text":"究竟這會否造成對外我們在跟大家一起來做溝通的部分?這個是有一些斷層呢?在核廢料處置的話基本上在經濟部今年成立的專案辦公室裡面其實在這部分的溝通也是屬於那個辦公室的這個必須執行的事項之一那在這部分的話我們在我們的所舉辦的相關的科普展的部分我們針對"},{"start":8116.158,"end":8128.187,"text":"核廢料處理的部分我們也有設置單位盡量來參觀的這個民眾能夠了解在核廢料處理的目前的狀況以及所遇到的困難因為我們知道在這個112年我們辦了這個兩場的這個科普展"},{"start":8131.929,"end":8133.45,"text":"兩場偏鄉高中活動三場科普活動教育內容大部分只談原子能知識或輻射防護等確定近期核廢料部分"},{"start":8147.236,"end":8147.576,"text":"需考量進去的"},{"start":8172.395,"end":8175.577,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":8191.468,"end":8216.552,"text":"有自己的自媒體包含我們的這個YT或者是在這個粉絲專頁當中但是目前我們看到的不管是點讚數也好回應數也好其實好像距離那個成效也不是太好是因為太生太生冷的這個這個嘗試嗎還是因為我們的這個話題離一般民眾他們可能覺得跟我還沒有太大的切身關係這個部分我們也要來改進好不好"},{"start":8217.252,"end":8232.662,"text":"對,我們這部分我們會來做更多的強化改進,更加文化一點。好,謝謝代理主委,謝謝。謝謝主席。代理主委請回,謝謝郭益勤委員的質詢,請回。那我們現在休息10分鐘。"},{"start":8266.34,"end":8267.671,"text":"計劃。"},{"start":8656.487,"end":8656.507,"text":"報告。"},{"start":8864.933,"end":8865.093,"text":"吳佩儀委員質詢"},{"start":8884.173,"end":8898.112,"text":"主委好今天呢我們要討論的是這個我們核安會的業務報告然後也有預算的詢答那我想很多人都在討論是這個有些人說核電要不要來研議那"},{"start":8901.127,"end":8915.48,"text":"日前我們行政院院長是說即便有修法通過要來重新評估核電廠的原意及啟用的話這個時間至少也是要三年半至五年"},{"start":8916.862,"end":8934.475,"text":"之前這是行政院院長的說法不過我最近看到一則中時的新聞他裡面說有不具名的核電廠前高層他說呢核電廠如果要延移的話最快一年多就可以來重啟我首先想要請問張代理主委你認同這個說法嗎?有辦法一年就來重啟嗎?"},{"start":8946.824,"end":8974.543,"text":"機組要重啟必須要根據機組的樣態來做安全評估台電公司事實上他們自己有說明他們在安全評估的部分他必須要評估他用多少時間才能完成整體的安全評估以核一廠為例的話他事實上已經進行了一些設備的拆除他整個組織管理的人力也做了組織的變革另外的話他有些設備的維護保養因為進入廚藝不再進行所以這整個都要來進行盤點"},{"start":8976.624,"end":9003.255,"text":"然後做出他們的安全評估之後還包括所有的老化的部分的評估他才能夠來進行這個安全的審查所以所謂的一年我並不清楚這個依據是什麼沒有錯因為其實有相當多跟安全有關的項目要來做評估那我仔細看了一下這位所謂的不具名核電廠前高層的說法他為什麼說可以一年呢他說其實核安會啊不需要檢查那麼多的項目"},{"start":9003.815,"end":9004.656,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9024.056,"end":9029.841,"text":"所以呢他依照這三點他做出他的結論說只要核安會可以減少這個安全評估的項目的話那時間可以減少到一年我認同剛剛前面張代理主委所說的安全相關的項目這個非同小可我們該做的一定都來做"},{"start":9043.592,"end":9046.994,"text":"從專業來嚴格把關千萬不能有這種為了趕時間乾脆把你安全項目要檢查項目把它減少的這一種做法那同時我也相當質疑因為之前在質詢核安會的時候我也就曾提過了因為我們當年的核電廠還沒有環評法規所以過去不用做環評但是現在已經有環評法規了所以如果你不管你要重啟還是研議都需要來做環評"},{"start":9070.327,"end":9099.499,"text":"以環評的程序來講一年之內是不可能的除非你犧牲專業以及現在我們當代的公共治理也是一門專業公共治理裡面公民的參與這是必要的程序我舉個例子武漢會我們是研究機關你們可能比較沒有到執行層面那麼了解以台電來說台電一定相當清楚我們現在光是一個變電箱要下地"},{"start":9100.279,"end":9125.006,"text":"都一定要辦理現勘都一定要向民眾說明都一定要充分來溝通甚至要召開說明會這當中都需要公民參與公開透明的過程那我們教育委員會本委員會有非常多新北市的民意代表新北市的立法委員我相信他們也不可能可以認同說哇今天你一個核電廠要演繹要重啟竟然可以"},{"start":9125.646,"end":9126.087,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核"},{"start":9141.803,"end":9147.367,"text":"已而傳而。我很擔心這個錯誤的講法變成大家認為說一年是有可能的所以我希望這相關的資訊要澄清清楚以現行的以核安的專業來講如果你相關的安全項目都要來檢查的話一年是不可能的再來我們要通過環評的程序再來我們需要有公民參與的過程"},{"start":9163.758,"end":9176.955,"text":"所以我希望未來倘若真的有進入到要實質要來評估的時候希望核安會可以本於專業來進行嚴格的審查跟把關可以嗎委員核安會一定會本於專業嚴格把關是"},{"start":9178.777,"end":9180.759,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9199.355,"end":9200.577,"text":"核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":9214.352,"end":9242.937,"text":"三倍甚至有些是標高到七到八倍的所以呢因為未來你們還在這個都還在做資訊相關的收集嘛也收集以後才有下一步的評估嘛我希望你們在做這個SMMR相關的資訊收集的時候連他的成本面也有一必要來整理清楚來提供更完整的這個評估好嗎好如果我們可以收集到相關的成本的資訊的話我們會請國研院把它納入他的這個資料收集的範圍"},{"start":9243.898,"end":9243.919,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":9245.578,"end":9269.834,"text":"接下來要請教的是我們核一乾除廠已經啟動現在進入熱測室就是把我們少量用過的核燃料封存完善之後拿去乾除廠來放置那上個月是我們台灣史上首次我們終於有能力有辦法開始把用過的燃料棒從燃料池裡面來移出來這是非常非常重要的一步所以我想請問一下因為現在是不是試運轉的期間我們乾除廠什麼時候可以來正式運轉"},{"start":9275.778,"end":9301.481,"text":"目前事實上是在做熱測試熱測試的話只做兩桶所以目前已經裝了一桶那一桶也運到儲存場址的定位接下來他們會做第二桶等到兩桶的熱測試做完他們會做整體的作業的檢討然後提出他的運轉執照申請然後我們會依照他運轉執照的申請相關的文件來檢視他是不是可以取得運轉執照"},{"start":9302.842,"end":9310.186,"text":"好的那因為這是我們第一次嘛幹處的嘗試在熱測室當中所以民眾也都很關心所以我希望說後續你們一定會有持續的監控等等相關資訊的收集我希望我們也要務必的來謹慎然後作為我們後續的實際操作的這些經驗的參考"},{"start":9322.914,"end":9344.218,"text":"最後一點也想要跟張理主委討論就是呢我們核安會每年都要推動性別主流化這也是行政院性品專案小組定期有在討論跟核管的那長期下來我們核安會的這個男女的比例目前整體全部的員工男性跟女性的比例是多少我們手邊有沒有數字多少我們應該是有數字6比4"},{"start":9348.393,"end":9350.753,"text":"主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9373.158,"end":9378.723,"text":"國際的有一個組織歐洲的國際原子能總署他們現在也正在發起一個計畫跟領英的一個人力平台就是特別來去支持核能領域的女性人才我想這個可以給我們核安會來做參考希望我們可以跟我們整體的行政部會一起來往性別主流化的進程再往前推進是的我們繼續努力"},{"start":9403.042,"end":9407.545,"text":"謝謝主席有請代理主委及國園院院長有請代理主委及國園院院長"},{"start":9429.1,"end":9458.343,"text":"委員好好你好喔來我們來看一下我想今天就SMR的部分我想要快速跟國研院還有代理主委這邊討論喔其實我想今天有非常多委員都已經關心我就提出幾個簡單的問題目前我們看到在你們的業務報告資料裡面呢國研院有持續關注國際第四代反應器也就是還有小型模組化反應器的技術發展而且我們看到你們適當的投入資源不管是人力或者是預算那也就是說就國研院的角度"},{"start":9458.723,"end":9484.078,"text":"目前你們是怎麼看待你們目前投入的經費跟這個研究,跟你們想像未來的可能性?報告委員,我們事實上基於身為國家的一個研究機構,我們隨時都會注意前瞻的研究。我們在三年前就開始針對美國已經核准過的,管制單位核准過的NewScale這個"},{"start":9485.479,"end":9488.003,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9503.302,"end":9527.79,"text":"監督單位核安會也撥了100萬給我們做這樣的研究今年明年開始就是114年我們編了1543萬做SMR相關的研究針對核心物理緊急疏散還有這個熱流分析我們做一個評估同時盤點我們現在所用的一些程式跟"},{"start":9528.57,"end":9531.311,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":9553.663,"end":9554.043,"text":"此外,此外,此外,"},{"start":9573.275,"end":9599.189,"text":"相較於大型反應爐它真的有更加經濟嗎?其實也有不同的學者有不同的看法認為降低成本通常不會超過百分之三十再來往下看還有它會比反應爐更安全嗎?其實也有人提出相關疑議認為說我投影片這邊有寫被動安全功能並非總是有效特別遭遇強震、洪患或野火等極端事件那我想強震這個絕對是我們台灣要避免的事情好再來下一個"},{"start":9600.489,"end":9617.04,"text":"放射性的廢棄物會比較少嗎?在小型模組這個問題上其實也是有專家學者提出疑議了也就是不必然必然是這樣好再來下一個它的安全性難道好到不需要監控跟維護嗎?或者是SMS使用的燃料會更少更有效率嗎?"},{"start":9617.64,"end":9635.125,"text":"也就是說如果在你們的研究當中你們其實也有反映過類似的問題也看到類似的問題參考過很多國際專家學者那我想因為今天時間有限那這是比較專業的問題我們就不在這邊討論但是我想立法院站在監督的角度還是要提出提醒喔所以我最後有一個小結也要拜託你們積極的研究"},{"start":9637.225,"end":9660.22,"text":"其實已經有很多專家學者提出尤其在台灣我們之前參加過一個線上會議在線上會議當中的專家學者是來自美國優斯科學家聯盟核電安全主任他提醒大家考量小型模組化反應爐的設計台灣必須謹慎的思考充分評估它的安全性而這個評估的來源可能就來自於我剛剛講的五大面向的問題"},{"start":9660.981,"end":9665.747,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":9678.502,"end":9695.291,"text":"檢討這個為什麼我一定要把標題念出來因為我們真的跟你們談過很多次我們來看那現在資料有些問題現在這一張統計資料呢是來自河安會的服防年報我們可以看到台灣投入輻射相關產業工作人員是逐年增加這是人員的部分2023來到56892人我們來看下一張"},{"start":9700.354,"end":9723.386,"text":"可是核安會給我們的資料裡面說職業暴露的劑量限值是每連續5年週期的有效劑量不得超過100毫西弗也就是平均每一年不得超過20毫西弗而且你們自己有說任何單一年內之有效劑量不得超過50毫西弗實務上長期以來我們大家都認為這是一個很重要的規範"},{"start":9724.406,"end":9730.15,"text":"我們現在想問如果這個規範往下去看我們來看一下現場是不是真的都是這樣呢來看總體劑量的部分從2000年到2023年這20多年來我們看到人口數越來越多但是這張統計圖上所偵測到的總體劑量卻相對偏低我真的覺得怪怪尤其請主委注意08到19年這個數字請你稍微記一下我們來看下一張統計圖"},{"start":9751.906,"end":9760.598,"text":"全國輻射工作人員近20年來看他們的平均劑量值也是逐漸下滑一樣請您注意08到19年下一張"},{"start":9763.345,"end":9782.179,"text":"再到輻射工作人員的個人年紀量大於50或者是20毫西弗的人數近15年來08到19趨於個位數或者是零以上這幾張我想要問如果這個數據是可信的那我們來看另外一個最近的新聞"},{"start":9783.42,"end":9808.91,"text":"在前面圖卡我剛特別提醒主委08到19年那整體的計量相對偏低人員計量數值也下滑甚至是輻射工作人員個人的年紀量都低於50跟20毫西弗看起來這個數字很安全吶這個統計數字也很漂亮可是我們真的懷疑會不會有一些黑數是你們沒有掌握跟我們所不知道的我們來看一下這個新聞吶這一家工程公司呢在"},{"start":9809.13,"end":9835.608,"text":"二零一九年被揭露有造假劑量配章的資料那這間公司在今年就在今年的七月被高雄地檢署他以過失致死罪起訴高雄地檢署的資料我寫在頭影片上我就念給主委聽他說啊為避免該人員劑量配章所偵測的輻射量超標致使工作人員必須停止作業負責人涉嫌從民國97年3月起到108年1月止"},{"start":9839.771,"end":9851.426,"text":"只是公司的員工在進行檢測作業的時候不要佩戴劑量配章導致該公司無性員工長期暴露在過量的輻射量而罹患急性白血症死亡。"},{"start":9853.055,"end":9874.369,"text":"這就是我剛剛為什麼說如果你們的統計數字這麼漂亮但是為什麼會出現這個事情核安會到底有多少的把握剛剛那些漂亮的數字是真的有反映到現場相關從業人員他們的環境如果你們這麼有把握為什麼還會出現這個事情而且這還是現場有人揭露的會不會有沒有人揭露的資料我們來看下一張"},{"start":9875.67,"end":9879.892,"text":"根據核安會你們在給我們的資料從04年針對業者裁罰案件核安會的公開資料有違反游離輻射防護法的有95件受罰業者有125家那這裡面包含哪些呢沒有對該人員實施個別劑量監測還有沒有依照規定劃定管制區實施維理管制或者是沒有依照相關規定實施在職輻射工作人員定期健康檢查所以"},{"start":9902.022,"end":9902.582,"text":"主委,您怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":9919.366,"end":9948.552,"text":"我想那個剛才的案例其實也就是提醒我們我們在後續要做加強其實有這個案例之後我們在服防組的部分我們在不義警這個稽查部分也做加強資料比對上也做加強因為我們之前其實有做視察可是確實他們沒有反映出來那但是由於這個案例的話我們針對我們的管制作業我們做了一些強化那另外我們現在正在進行的修法作業事實上也會賦予業者更多的責任"},{"start":9948.672,"end":9950.034,"text":"二十年將近二十年那目前你們有沒有研議相關修法的進度"},{"start":9964.241,"end":9990.384,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9990.624,"end":10017.803,"text":"關心聽到這個消息那我想辦公室持續的監督那因為我時間有限所以法的部分你剛說一個月內所以我們就期待12月我們到時候會在委員會在針對法案的部分去討論保護現場更多工作人員的安全抱歉我說的委員會是核安會的委員會不是我們教育化委員會喔不是要核安會委員會通過之後希望在明年的第一個會議那還是先把資料給所有教育化委員會委員對相關資料我們提供謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":10019.748,"end":10026.15,"text":"代理主委請回陳培宇委員質詢完畢再來請陳培宇委員代主持然後我質詢接下來有請范雲委員謝謝主席有請我們張代理主委有請主委謝謝"},{"start":10051.638,"end":10067.731,"text":"稍微好代理主委您好今天其實主要是要跟您請教一個核安會的一個重要的業務就是關於所謂的民生輻射我想我這邊放的這個新聞今年暑假7月30號關於出事的紅林公司假照輻射相關的資訊然後原能會一直都沒有發現"},{"start":10080.04,"end":10081.542,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":10100.981,"end":10102.203,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":10117.244,"end":10119.525,"text":"事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預事件事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預事件事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預事件事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":10135.314,"end":10147.185,"text":"因此今年暑假被判過失致死罪我覺得比較遺憾的事情是最後還要家屬去告核安會的角色看起來好像並沒有發揮得很好在這個部分如果"},{"start":10150.848,"end":10167.126,"text":"同樣一家公司再度發生狀況我想請問核安會如何告知大眾尤其是員工因為這是一個非常嚴重的職業安全那輻射這個部分是非常的專業那同樣的情況再發生的話核安會如何告訴大家呢"},{"start":10169.106,"end":10195.257,"text":"我想基本上我們也很不願意這樣子的事情發生所以如果同樣狀況再度發生的話最嚴重的話我們會讓他取消他的這個許可證照更嚴重的話可是他2008年當然不是這家我們講的是別家嘛那至於這個防範措施的部分那我們剛才有提到除了不預警的視察因為這個其實也有點這個"},{"start":10198.455,"end":10225.154,"text":"結構體的問題就是檢驗師本身他沒有佩戴事實上我們去的時候以往我們並沒有收集到相關的訊息所以之後我覺得教育是需要提升的就是員工也要知道他的權益不是說業者另外的話我們在修法的時候請主委簡短回答我想請問你像這樣的公司在你們要監管中的全國有幾家"},{"start":10227.182,"end":10228.903,"text":"一萬多家一萬多家"},{"start":10257.302,"end":10282.285,"text":"然後你們矚密當時在事發的記者會後宣稱會強化雇主自主管理請問你們做了什麼東西有沒有修任何的法律或者是相關的規定能夠強化全國超過上萬有類似的輻射劑量應該被監控管控的你們做了什麼能夠強化雇主自主管理因為你們認為只能靠雇主自主管理"},{"start":10286.098,"end":10287.419,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":10307.498,"end":10335.21,"text":"因為這個法我看上一次修是民國91年2002年欸剛才有報告說我們其實草案已經出來了然後我們所有該做的程序會商跟業者的討論我們也走完了然後送到行政院已經送到行政院他們也經過審視並沒有重大的修正意見但是現在因為遇到我們阻改所以我們依照程序要在核安會的委員會做報告因為我們現在是委員制所以我們要在核安會然後我們現在希望是明年"},{"start":10336.01,"end":10339.333,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預算案二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":10358.49,"end":10358.91,"text":"事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":10369.741,"end":10397.344,"text":"因為就是我看你們的網站喔當年你就算有裁罰他的員工也不會知道啊因為受處分人在你們這個這裡面是完全不公告是哪家公司欸那我們去問了你們你們給的理由是說依照行政法法第二條相關法律必須明文授權才能公佈然後又說服防法裡面已經訂有罰款等等意思就是不用再公告姓名單位了"},{"start":10398.384,"end":10421.761,"text":"請問你們修法有包含這個應該要公告這些違反游離輻射防護法讓他的員工暴露在這麼嚴重的健康風險20個員工4個人罹癌3個人死亡都是青壯年30、40歲請問你們的修法有包含這個嗎報告委員我們的修法目前沒有包括公告這個姓名或名稱的部分有要公告"},{"start":10422.981,"end":10448.697,"text":"為什麼不公告呢?這難道不是一個重要的公共利益?因為我們之前修法還是在修服防法的行政相關的這個管制的部分但是委員關切的這部分我們已經有請說我們服防組在要去研議就是說我們在後續是不是再怎麼請那我先請問你代理主委你也擔任過核安會那麼多重要的職位你個人認為是不是應該公告這種不良業主?"},{"start":10449.757,"end":10472.344,"text":"對所以我們現在開始我們會針對這一塊去做演繹怎麼樣去處理那你可不可以承諾我你們送來我們立法院的就是要公告這些違法的單位公司名稱不良業主這樣他的員工才能知道啊否則被你開罰你又說你們能量不夠叫他們自主管理連被開罰的這家公司2008年就被你們開罰結果2019年後來死了三個員工欸"},{"start":10476.618,"end":10476.658,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":10497.873,"end":10522.119,"text":"我是不知道這個2019年的事情現在2024年我們查這個事情的時候你們本辦跟你要一個說明你還告訴我一副就是這件事情就是就是不需要公開姓名單位所以我覺得你們對於就是這麼重要您剛講你們的工作不是只有廚藝工作嗎那輻射安全全民輻射安全就是你們的守備範圍不是嗎是"},{"start":10523.479,"end":10540.736,"text":"那如果你認為全國一萬多家你就檢查了九十幾家要叫大家自主防範自主防範不過都已經被開罰你還不公告你要叫員工如何自主防範我們每個人都是輻射專家嗎所以這部分我們後續會參考別的部會的相關的公告做法來研議後續"},{"start":10542.137,"end":10566.166,"text":"修法我想這麼重要的事情你跟行政院要求說你要改一部分他們應該會尊重你那不管你用什麼方式是不是給我辦公室一個書面報告你們如何盡速修訂游離輻射防護法或者是相關的規定好嗎只要是公告這種不良的業主就應該公告單位名稱跟業主的姓名才能夠維護他們的勞工的安全好嗎我後續補充報告給委員"},{"start":10570.708,"end":10599.855,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10602.927,"end":10605.829,"text":"我們現在請羅廷威委員質詢好,謝謝召委,有請代理主委有請代理主委好,主委好主委,輻射可不可怕輻射要做適當的防護那輻射你認為它可不可怕"},{"start":10631.65,"end":10648.721,"text":"那要看你怎麼應用怎麼應用對那你說將不當的這些輻射外洩的一些潛在因素那藉由這樣子的狀況去忽略了沒有去做防範讓我們的所謂的工作同仁去接觸到輻射那您看起來這樣的個案可不可怕"},{"start":10649.774,"end":10676.849,"text":"這樣是不應該存在的那我想輻射很可怕但更可怕的是既然有人去隱秘或者甚至是不去加以防備讓工作人員去接觸到其實這一類的案件我們服務處也有接到相關的一些通報我們也都很關心我想剛剛昭偉有在關心這個案件我想作為不同政黨我們也都一起聲援我們希望公眾環境能夠更加的安全之外"},{"start":10677.449,"end":10694.991,"text":"我們希望政府能夠來幫忙協助而不是要求自治如果能夠自治的話大家都自己來自治那我們也不需要什麼酒駕大家自治就好不會有酒駕所以我希望剛剛你說的各個部會裡面有相關的公佈"},{"start":10695.852,"end":10713.749,"text":"規定的方法之一能不能來做一個參考這部分你可以去參考一下不管是我們在兒少的部分不管是酒駕的部分也都有公布的一些相關的法令可以做一個參考本席也是希望這件事情要重視因為我覺得更可怕的是人心"},{"start":10714.91,"end":10742.967,"text":"因為既然有人還可以去隱秘不去防備甚至是讓工作人員第一線去接觸所以我覺得他比輻射更可怕那我們就需要有方法去修改的能夠更加防範於未然我們都相信人性本善但是我們還是應該加以法治化來去做防範所以這部分我也必須一起來聲援也希望代理主委您應該要重視去處理這個案件真的已經很久了當然"},{"start":10743.948,"end":10759.085,"text":"您之前不在任但是我們希望您能夠大刀闊斧做出一些態度做出一些事情出來好嗎是好主委那今年7月份本席有發文向常常會所知110年到111年典化甲的藥劑財務"},{"start":10761.347,"end":10788.892,"text":"採購案今天本席將採購案的內容來做一個詢問請問國內目前具有點片製造的許可藥商目前有一家國內哪一家做不出那一家做不出來嗎為什麼這個採購案要採國際標因為當初在採購的時候聲音可以大聲一點嗎因為我們有參考國外的相關的資訊國際相關的資訊我們希望這樣子的儲備是有一個比較長期的一個儲備的一個量能"},{"start":10789.901,"end":10800.971,"text":"所以你認為國內這個不行?我們並沒有排除如果國內可以供應的話他也可以來供應那有適用政府採購法呢?"},{"start":10802.307,"end":10825.336,"text":"這個部分在這個我們是依照政府採購法公開招標的公開招標你是依據該法的第105條第一項第二款的機關辦理人民之生命身體健康安全之財產遭遇緊急危難採購的事項得不適用於本法招標呢是用這個辦理招標嗎我們是用一般的招高規範那若不是是依據哪一條"},{"start":10828.172,"end":10841.104,"text":"特別採購法遭標決標處理辦法第5條第一項還是依據政府採購法第105條第一項第二款可不可以說一下是不是可以請秘書室主任說明一下"},{"start":10842.837,"end":10858.326,"text":"報告委員我們這個採購案的部分是依照政府採購法我們用我們的公開招標的程序來做那委員剛剛提到105條的部分他是適用緊急狀態的時候來做的那我們這個案子並不是適用這個部分"},{"start":10859.467,"end":10883.747,"text":"我們當時在起案的過程當中,廠商其實針對這個部分有提出他們的異議,那這個異議的部分我們也有答覆,那也經過工程會召開相關的會議之後,我們依照工程會後續的決議,我們還是維持用這種方式來進行招標。好,我希望要求核安會三日內寫一個採購案的一個完整的SOP。"},{"start":10884.856,"end":10911.691,"text":"讓我們能夠了解一下沒關係你如果有這樣子的定案以後就以這樣子的模本我們都可以來做一個參考但是我要確定未來在這樣子的相關的國際標採購案能夠有一個SOP可循包括採購的流程是怎麼進行還有相關的法源依據這個部分你都要去依這個我所說的採購案的一個完整的SOP副表列給我們可以嗎在三個月之內補這個報告給委員三個月內剛才委員說三個月內啊"},{"start":10914.653,"end":10915.074,"text":"三日內。"},{"start":10922.935,"end":10924.997,"text":"9月25日衛福部宣布輔導核實全面解禁,請問有沒有問過你的意見?"},{"start":10950.938,"end":10968.491,"text":"基本上我們是協助輻射偵測所以我們所有相關輻射偵測的結果都是作為這個衛福部他們參考的資訊對不起你的聲音真的很小聲基本上我們是在協助輻射相關偵測所以我們所有檢測的結果都有提供給衛福部做相關的參考所以他有問過你意見嗎"},{"start":10969.853,"end":10970.193,"text":"檢測結果有沒有超標?"},{"start":10988.359,"end":11004.344,"text":"沒有沒有超標的這個沒有超標好那大陸也朝解禁的方向來進行喔是在同意日本同意擴大國際原子能總屬對海水魚類的一個監測喔包含中國在內的第三國都能參加監測體制請問台灣可以比照辦理嗎"},{"start":11006.316,"end":11018.492,"text":"因為我們不是IEA的會員國所以這部分的話我們沒有辦法依照因為他是在依照IEA會員國的體制底下去執行的所以我們是另外跟日方做合作的一個"},{"start":11022.038,"end":11047.936,"text":"國際原子能總署10月9日在福島第一核戰場近海採集了魚類樣品將調查放射性的物質濃度大陸南韓及瑞士連瑞士都有派員參加那你剛剛說跟日本同步我們有沒有機會派員跟日本同步監測這部分的話因為還是剛才的說明因為那是屬於IAEA的會員國的所有的這個組織架構之下執行的"},{"start":11049.457,"end":11072.33,"text":"所以我們就沒辦法對我們不是IEA的會員好那沒關係今天我有稍微聽到因為這個呃代理主委你有說到你有去做相關的檢測檢測完是沒有超標我們是做我們的海域漁獲期取樣這些的食品進口的這些的所有的檢測的結果我們事實上都有公佈做我們的海域所以不包含日本的海域嗎"},{"start":11076.083,"end":11096.785,"text":"檢測的魚類是我國的海產對但是進口的這個水產品那食藥署他會他們會這個取樣去抽樣我們會協助做這個輻射檢測所以進口的日本日本的水都有對這相關的檢測報告可以給我們一份嗎"},{"start":11100.732,"end":11128.718,"text":"在衛福部有公告這部分我們也可以提供好再麻煩你也給我們一份那我想近期我們對於不管是福島的核食以及我們一直在關注的有關於這個近海流域不斷的在日本有排放所謂核廢水那相關的輻射值會不會一直在隨著海流來到台灣這部分的監測我們都持續在關注也希望這個代理主委能夠協助這方面的資料讓我們本席能夠知道我想我們都很重視這一類議題好嗎是"},{"start":11130.519,"end":11130.539,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11142.277,"end":11160.343,"text":"張嘉峻、張嘉峻、張嘉峻委員楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員李燕秀、李燕秀、李燕秀委員鄭振銜、鄭振銜、鄭振銜委員黃建豪、黃建豪、黃建豪委員邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員"},{"start":11161.583,"end":11177.912,"text":"蘇清淳、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員翁曉林、翁曉林、翁曉林委員羅明財、羅明財、羅明財委員徐欣穎、徐欣穎、徐欣穎委員議員之委員請質詢主席好,麻煩請代理主委"},{"start":11190.421,"end":11191.408,"text":"好請張代理主委"},{"start":11194.773,"end":11222.184,"text":"委員好那個代理主委好剛剛好像其他委員跟你問到就是說核安會的網站點閱率都非常差啦當然我的瞭解是你們現在還要花一千兩百多萬這麼多錢要去架設一個網站那這個議題啊我們當時看到你們要做這個事情的時候就覺得很誇張到底什麼樣的礦勢聚座網站需要花一千兩百四十四萬這麼高額的錢去做網站到底有沒有隨便亂花錢"},{"start":11223.524,"end":11234.607,"text":"那這個網站是所謂的輻射安全防護數位自主學習網1244萬那我跟你對照另外一個項目那個項目叫臺灣地區環境輻射偵測經費就是說我們會在全臺灣放射一些輻射的偵測的一些設備放這些設備全臺灣放設備去偵測輻射大概花1139萬"},{"start":11250.885,"end":11265.614,"text":"但是我們架一個網站就花了一千兩百四十四萬比放偵測輻射的錢還多那我們現在就來跟你討教一下到底這個網站為什麼要花這麼多錢這個網站您知道嗎?您知道齁?請問一下這個網站為什麼要花這麼多錢做?"},{"start":11269.877,"end":11294.633,"text":"首先這個環境輻射偵測的經費這個經費其實是一個例行的維護保養沒有我是問你網站這個網站的部分事實上因為這個輻射從業人員日益增多其實剛才都有提到這個輻射防護事實上是非常重要的一環所以我們希望在有各種方式來強化這個輻射防護"},{"start":11296.754,"end":11308.502,"text":"為什麼要花這麼多錢?因為有700多萬是做硬體的部分網站的硬體部分網站的硬體你們做一個網站的硬體要700多萬這700多萬硬體是什麼錢?"},{"start":11312.56,"end":11321.286,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會主管核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預"},{"start":11342.516,"end":11357.946,"text":"這個一定要跟委員說明一下因為我們要建立這樣子數位化其實數位化還會涉及到各自的問題所以這其實在這委員是說建置一個這樣的話其實這個部分的話其實我們是有細部的一個評估那確實是需要發放"},{"start":11361.549,"end":11385.288,"text":"沒關係繼續因為之前我們也有跟你們這邊問過到底這個所謂的網站到底要做什麼你們的講法是說因為你們要讓一些醫護人員來主要的用法是說要讓全國民眾包括醫護人員來使用這個網站所以你們這個網站是要對全民的特別是醫護人員但是這個醫護人員部分我就非常不解為什麼呢第一"},{"start":11386.228,"end":11400.714,"text":"醫護人員如果他要操作這個可能會有輻射的這些設備的時候他要考證照,原本他就具備相關的知識了,對吧?他如果都不具備輻射的知識他可以去當比如說X光的放射師嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":11401.806,"end":11403.948,"text":"為什麼你們還要做一個網站去讓這些醫護人員去了解輻射的知識?為什麼?我想任何一個從業"},{"start":11422.25,"end":11423.55,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":11447.782,"end":11472.454,"text":"考證照沒有關係嘛所以他有上沒上沒有差嘛那你又告訴人家說他必須要再訓練意思是說如果沒有這個網站的話我們的X光師他們可能知識就落伍了啊他未來可能操作這些事情就會錯誤啊會影響到醫療的品質啊所以這個網站很重要嘛所以要花一千多萬嘛你的意思是這樣嘛那如果是這樣要不要讓那些醫護師繼續再考證照如果沒有的話你這個網站"},{"start":11474.531,"end":11502.054,"text":"我覺得沒有辦法說服人啦第二個你有考慮到這些醫護人員他有時間去上你們這個網站嗎你知道現在各大醫院急診室都塞床啊你知道原因是什麼嗎因為護理師都不夠啊護理師不夠所以很多病床都沒有開啊所以很多人都在急診室等病床然後現在核安會說我要架一個一千多萬的網站去讓這些醫事人員要來進修啊如果沒有進修的話可能知識會落伍啊他們有空上嗎"},{"start":11506.029,"end":11527.028,"text":"主委代理主委我是覺得可以跟委員分享一個概念就是說並不是等到他們急需之需要的時候我們才來做那就已經來不及了那所以你有強制他們來上嗎你有要求說他們要多少時數所以才能夠繼續做這個工作嗎有這樣要求嗎"},{"start":11528.083,"end":11546.324,"text":"後續怎麼樣去提升它們需要的這個...所以你講的是你現在解釋說為什麼要架這個網站因為呢那些議事人員沒有來上你的網站知識就會落伍了不是等到落伍了才來修應該是平常就要進修你的想法是這樣你把這個網站進修講得非常重要可是我現在問你說那你有沒有強制他一定要來進修你又說後續再規劃"},{"start":11548.547,"end":11574.587,"text":"所以你當初在規劃這1000多萬的網站的時候你都沒有考慮到他後續的配套嘛再來喔其實你們這個網站當時告訴我們說裡面有很多線上的模擬測驗提庫啊什麼的一些案例示範教材等等但實際上這一些所謂你要在這個網站上面要放的這些東西專業知識教材提庫在現有的核安會網站上都有啦都已經有放啦"},{"start":11578.473,"end":11579.514,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會及所屬單位預"},{"start":11601.751,"end":11624.031,"text":"再來我們也不是你們核安會也不是只有這個網站是這個狀況這些錢一千多萬我不知道核安會覺得是不是不是錢就要做這個東西然後你們也有一個APP叫做核安1.通APP核安會的APP8年總共花了156萬去做這個APP主委知道嗎"},{"start":11628.307,"end":11651.643,"text":"知道嗎?那你知道這個APP的下載量所有的平台比如說蘋果的系統、Android系統加起來它下載量是多少你知道嗎?一萬多一萬六千八百九十四次八年花一百五十六萬然後只有下載一萬六千八百九十四次實際上下載的量你覺得高嗎?我們繼續努力那你覺得高嗎?"},{"start":11655.421,"end":11662.228,"text":"我覺得我們需要繼續努力你覺得高不高嘛我覺得我們應該提高主委你覺得高不高如果官員來這背詢這種態度的話沒有我是你覺得高不高嘛就是因為我們希望你覺得不高嘛你覺得低嘛你覺得低嘛"},{"start":11671.961,"end":11685.453,"text":"你已經花156萬做一個APP下載量你自己都覺得不滿意了你覺得要再高你現在又要再花1200多萬去下這一個網站這個網站裡面的內容很多在你原本的網站就有"},{"start":11687.421,"end":11712.231,"text":"然後你說這個網站的溝通對象是醫護人員但那些醫護人員平常他們本來就有受這些核輻射的訓練他才能取得證照然後你現在又告訴我說他們如果沒有來上你這個網站的話他的知識可能不足所以你覺得他們就是要不斷的要終身學習所以要上這個網站但是你又講不出你之後怎麼配套比如說要求他一定要來補時數他的證照才能延續"},{"start":11713.231,"end":11714.799,"text":"我的感覺啦我今天跟你對談的感覺你那個網站1200萬就丟到水裡啦"},{"start":11720.083,"end":11744.174,"text":"跟委員報告我們是第一年度我們是以醫護人員為主但是我們希望這個輻射的這個平台之後是跟輻射相關的這個業者或者關心的民眾都可以對但是我光是跟你討論醫護第一年醫護嘛你花了1200多萬嘛為了醫護嘛第一年嘛但是我光跟你討論醫護的這一塊我覺得很多事情都沒有回答好啊對"},{"start":11745.154,"end":11745.294,"text":"我們醫護人員"},{"start":11776.212,"end":11792.158,"text":"不是錢嗎?時間到了快到了超過了基本上我覺得委員關切的部分你補一個完整的效益評估1244萬效益評估"},{"start":11795.336,"end":11819.264,"text":"好,我們之後補給委員什麼時候補?效益評估?你到底細項為什麼要做一個網站要花到一千兩百多萬?到底為什麼?我們一個月之內補給委員所以你們沒有報告喔?你們沒有效益評估要一個月,要去掰喔?這個報告應該現成的啊,為什麼要一個月?你們當初花錢做事情的時候都會有一個效益評估啊怎麼那個東西拿給我就好了,為什麼要一個月?是說還要去掰是不是?"},{"start":11821.881,"end":11840.31,"text":"姜蕙可不可以請她,我們,那這報告可以,沒有,你現在,請你會後就是今天下班前先把你們的1200多萬的效益評估報告,手上有的先送過來,對,今天,今天下班前好嗎?姜蕙可以嗎?今天我們先把計畫相關的資料給委員,好,謝謝。"},{"start":11844.232,"end":11858.262,"text":"好那代理主委請回謝謝葉元芝委員的質詢我們關於今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另有吳春成委員提出書面質詢"},{"start":11859.523,"end":11880.514,"text":"關於今天的會議作以下決議一、報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆一、四年度中央政府總預算案有關核能安全委員會"},{"start":11882.535,"end":11904.35,"text":"算案,行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案相關提案請於11月29日下午2點前提出,令定期繼續審查。報告委員會,今天議程處理完畢,現在休息,謝謝各位。"},{"start":11937.759,"end":11937.779,"text":"報告。"}]}},{"id":"157260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eabaabebb9b1d3c8b3415c44cfb2338852019764a0ef6fec39ba64f041abfa03d905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員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tart":697.891,"end":698.832,"text":"您們可不可以做到?"},{"start":719.95,"end":736.483,"text":"跟委員報告應該是這個處理機制的問題我們當然是執勞工跟我們反映之後我們透過機制就馬上送到心理師做諮商這個程序我們會再做檢討不是啦 因為有時候要經過你們那一關的時候大家就會就會擔心啦報告委員當然他這樣心理師諮商也是我們有合作的心理師這樣子很明確的那個"},{"start":738.224,"end":743.407,"text":"第二點就是說可以擴及到職在勞工的眷屬這件事讓他們家人如果有心理障礙跟陰影也一樣可以受到這個災保法的保護如果我們可以做到的話相信對於國家的這個人權的形象是有幫助的而且"},{"start":766.297,"end":787.618,"text":"更可以給這些職災勞工的眷屬還他們一個真正的公平正義這個部分我也不要問你要不要本席在這裡強烈要求我相信我們整個委員會都會支持所以你們認真掌握這個問題雖然他會有一筆預算的支出但是我相信生命是無價的"},{"start":787.978,"end":788.018,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2310,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（16時21分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長、蔡署長。部長，我想這邊有一些資訊我先確認一下，就是謝宜容分署長他是否已經請辭，還是你們打算記兩大過免職？因為我剛剛有聽到消息說他已經請辭，你有准嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長澄清好嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：好。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，到目前沒有接到謝分署長有請辭的這樣一個情形。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那我想在這邊說明一下，因為我聽到這個消息，我還滿錯愕的，也滿恐慌的，因為請辭跟記兩大過免職的差異在於，請辭他還有機會可以再回任，因為我剛剛看到一個消息說他請辭，然後理由是要到國外陪小孩。剛剛有接到這樣的訊息，這個就表示他等風波過了，他還可以再回來，這個恐怖的人還可以再回來嗎？所以我在這邊點出這個，你們要特別注意。如果今天部長輕易地答應了、核准了他的請辭，我覺得這個才是對死者最大的不敬，真的太便宜他了，因為我們等於還在袒護他，還再給他一次機會。另外，我說三位很倒楣，陪葬的官員，部長，他們有什麼處分？算已經口頭公布了嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，我剛剛已經表達我的態度，就是謝宜容記兩大過、停職，蔡署長記一大過、調離主管職，我們全案移送司法。"],["陳委員瑩：那還有兩位，你剛剛只有講兩個而已，其他人沒有受到處分嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：其他兩位……"],["陳委員瑩：還是你還沒有想好？"],["何部長佩珊：其他兩位也都各一大過。"],["陳委員瑩：你要想清楚，我在這裡並不是要逼你說出對他們有什麼處分，因為我剛剛已經講了，其實我覺得是這樣子，今天其實很多委員有問蔡署長謝宜容是不是他推薦的？答案很清楚，不是蔡署長推薦的，因為我們都知道簡任缺不是署長的權責可以決定的，所以謝分署長不是蔡署長推薦的人，那是因為上面交辦，他必須按照流程去蓋章，我這樣講有沒有錯？"],["何部長佩珊：你是說謝分署長任命的過程嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！"],["何部長佩珊：如果照行政程序的流程是這樣子。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！剛剛有委員問嘛！那我直接問蔡署長，請問謝宜容分署長是你推薦的嗎？是你推薦他去做分署長的嗎？你要講清楚，是你自己push這件事去推薦他，還是你按照上頭交辦的行政流程，你必須要蓋這個章？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為這涉及到我們分署的首長，所以都是要跟長官先報告，經過同意我們……"],["陳委員瑩：好，這樣我了解，你的答案也是非常符合我們的理解，就是簡任缺不是署長你可以主張、決定的，但是在這個行政的流程中你必須要蓋章嘛！好，我想你的角色其實也很尷尬，因為在這個事情發生之前，你是已經可以退休的人，而且你已經申請過退休了，但是你真的還蠻倒楣的，你可能對這樣的工作有熱情所以留下來協助大家，但是也很不幸的遇到這樣的事情。我不管網路上網友對你有什麼批評跟誤會，我覺得認真做事情的人不應該在這個時候被霸凌，所以我要說出一些真相，我也不怕人家來撻伐我，我要替蔡署長說幾句話，我很佩服他，因為我聽到他從頭到尾就是說都是他的錯，他承擔。我希望勞動部的每一位長官都有像他這樣的風骨，我不會在這裡拜託他、把他強留下來，因為我覺得這件事情或許在他的心裡、在很多人的心裡已經造成遺憾，但是他就是說都是他的錯，他全部承擔，他從頭到尾也沒有點出到底是誰交辦要任命謝宜容，對這件事情他就是承擔。他自己不講，我在這裡替他講，我覺得已經有人因為被霸凌而結束了自己的生命，我也希望在接下來的所有處分都可以清清楚楚，要調查清楚，包括今天在處理臨時提案的時候，我還特別提到2月份就有人檢舉這件事情，之前的次長也呈報了這件事情，但是很奇怪，這件事情就是到不了部長的手上，部長就是聽不到，就是沒辦法看到，為什麼？中間那個門神是誰？請你們好好去查一查。今天很令人遺憾，蔡署長必須要去接受一個大過，然後接下來是怎麼樣我也不曉得，我想我們都尊重你的決定，但是我今天我也要把這個話講清楚，因為我也不希望因為這個事情讓一個願意去扛責任的人要接受大家霸凌，我覺得這樣子也不好。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可以借你的時間講一下嗎？我也非常感謝蔡署長，因為他本來要退休了，是我硬把他留下來的，是我懇求他留下來的，他在這個過程裡面幫忙我非常多，突破了很多政策，包括最近我們好不容易要上路的多元陪伴服務方案，包括臺印的MOU，我真的覺得我很榮幸與他一起共事，他是一位非常優秀的文官，我也很抱歉，我拖累了他，我很抱歉，我拖累了他，真的很抱歉，委員，我也不適任了！"],["陳委員瑩：部長，我想眼淚不能解決問題……"],["何部長佩珊：我會向行政院提出請辭。"],["陳委員瑩：我今天用一個比較正面的方式去講，其實我很高興你今天終於講出這句話，你要向行政院請辭，因為從事件發生一開始，我最期待聽到的就是部長可以自己請辭，但我希望不是你被逼請辭，而是你發自內心，你認為你應該要請辭負責。因為我看到蔡署長在第一時間就表態，他就說是他的錯，他要負責，但是我覺得比他更高階的長官應該更要展現出那個風骨跟氣度，所以我很高興你現在講出這樣的話。","在這件事情發生之後，我覺得我有更重要的建議，也趁兩位站在這裡的時候提出來，因為我不知道下次還會不會看到你們。我先提一下這個非常重要的事，因為財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心在華山辦理了關懷職災勞工及眷屬的園遊會，媒體披露出一個非常重要的訊息，他們除了要面對雇主是否願意負責外，更要面對接踵而來的社會現實，包括未來對家庭經濟的衝擊還有漫長的復健過程，家人也必須要跟著受苦，你們可以辦這樣的活動讓職災勞工跟眷屬的聲音被報導出來，這是一項非常重要的突破，表示你們願意正視這個問題，本席也在這裡對這樣的事情表示肯定。但是我也注意到了一件事，職災勞工的心理復健可能也是要被重視的一個議題，現在的作法好像是交由醫院的心理專業人員去諮商，我明白你們有做，只是說有多少比例的職災勞工有用到這樣子的資源，以及在使用之後到底成效如何？署長，你有沒有數據可以跟外界說明？請簡短說明有沒有數據。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員，我會把數據給你，我們在11月6號、7號有跟衛福部開過會，我們勞動部跟衛福部有關心理諮商的處理模式跟機制要一致。"],["陳委員瑩：來，我跟你講，據我了解，這個數據不是個位數就是十位數而已，很低喔！你如果覺得我講的有錯，沒關係，你把資料準備好，你下次來的時候再告訴大家。因為今天我們關注了這個職場霸凌的問題，我記得之前我們也曾經關心過勞工的心理健康如何被支持的議題，一般勞工會因為過高的職業壓力、過勞而衍生心理健康的問題，另外一個就是霸凌，這三種類型的心理傷害主要是發生在一般的職場，而且是仍然在職的勞工朋友。但是我們似乎忘記了一件很重要的事，就是還有一群更弱勢的職災勞工及其家屬，他們的憂鬱跟悲傷是因為職災而產生的，他們也有心理傷害，所以我覺得這個部分也可以被災保法的資源來保護跟關懷。部長跟署長覺得我這樣的建議、提醒是不是應該要被接受？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員的提醒，因為現行對重大職災的家屬我們會給予慰助跟一些協助，委員提醒的就是後續心理的一些協助，我覺得這是很好的建議，我們會來辦理。"],["陳委員瑩：對，還有家屬的部分也很重要，因為本席今天關注的重點是職災勞工跟眷屬的心理壓力如何被照顧，還有你們過去有做，但不知道做得好不好，在這樣的前提之下，我想在這邊提出兩項建議，就是職災勞工有可以單獨使用心理治療跟諮商的權利，而不是只有在參加你們職能復健的個案之後才有機會獲得幫助，這個是一件很重要的事情。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員，我們來檢討、調整我們的……"],["陳委員瑩：對，一定要調整，好嗎？然後更重要的是你們都要先評估，然後由醫院安排臨床心理醫師去輔導，這樣的機制對職災勞工是非常不方便的，如果職災勞工有心理問題，可不可以直接去找醫師或心理師？只要是因為職災引起的，就如同職業病一樣，就可以免費診治，特別是有災後症候群（PTSD）的這一群病患，可以被治療、被照顧，甚至可以給更高的診療費用，你們可不可以做到？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，有關處理機制問題，當然是職災勞工跟我們反映之後，我們透過機制送心理諮商，這個程序我們會再做檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：不是。因為要經過你們那一關，大家就會擔心嘛！"],["鄒署長子廉：像心理諮商我們就有合作的心理師，這是一個很明確的……"],["陳委員瑩：合作完就要跟你們報告，不是嗎？不用嗎？人家就怕這一點，你還聽不懂嗎？我看你的表情，你真的是不懂，你不知道眉角在哪裡，你回去好好反省！你來找我，我跟你講。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：第二點，有關擴及職災勞工眷屬，讓他們家人如果有心理障礙或陰影，也一樣可以受到災保法的保護。如果我們可以做到的話，相信對於國家人權形象是有幫助的，而且更能還給職災勞工眷屬一個真正的公平正義。這部分我不問你要不要，本席在這裡強烈要求，相信我們整個委員會都會支持。"],["鄒署長子廉：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們要認真掌握問題，這雖然會有一筆預算支出，但我相信生命是無價的，而如此的經費編列可以救回更多生命，希望你們能責成相關部門研商，是不是可以在一個半月內提供書面報告給我們委員會，好嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員，對職災勞工家屬的支持是我們政府要做的，我們會再加油。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","張嘉郡委員改書面質詢。","接續我們請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157251","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157251","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab0283d6fc4f62973a1ff0707298ac19832d069a2b6529f4f4855b1c4d5317d4a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"17:19:05 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":2.695,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請主席長好,陳主席長"},{"start":12.56,"end":40.989,"text":"委員好主計長好因為我們這個會期是預算會期所以我覺得立法委員在審預算的時候我們要負責任就要清楚地看那個預算書他只是說我最近看這個預算書我是越看越困惑什麼叫越看越困惑我相信這個預算書編列的內容跟方式主計長應該都很熟啦您從地方政府一路到中央政府"},{"start":41.869,"end":68.525,"text":"旁邊有計畫的用途後面有說明然後說明會更具體的講說這個錢到底要花到什麼地方去嗎但我的問題來我有什麼問題我的問題是我花那麼多的時間在拜讀你們所編出來的預算書啊讓我覺得陷入迷惘我預算書看這麼認真有何意義啊"},{"start":69.799,"end":87.981,"text":"為什麼我說我預算書看這麼認真有何意義啊?因為我後來發現這根本是作文比賽我為什麼說這是作文比賽?因為我錢沒有花到我在說明的那個用途我後來發現好像也都沒有關係"},{"start":89.773,"end":106.731,"text":"我為什麼說我看了預算書看了半天以後我發現我在浪費生命看錯文因為後面怎麼寫一點都不重要立法院通過預算以後啊我愛怎麼花就怎麼花後面那些文字啊"},{"start":107.679,"end":134.724,"text":"我不好意思講是廢話但沒有辦法發揮規範功能那我今天提出了這樣的問題我就一定要舉證嘛其實我今天下午在未還委員會我針對有關於啊這一次發生的不幸事件那位分署長的事情提出質詢的時候我順便就質詢啊他端午節送禮過年送禮"},{"start":137.062,"end":152.192,"text":"中秋節送禮他可以從救安基金可以從救保基金從一些莫名其妙的預算科目甚至連在做廣告、做媒體的錢他全部都可以挪來買禮品"},{"start":155.697,"end":182.174,"text":"去做他個人的關係我看了瞠目結舌啊那沒有關係今天勞動部部長答應我兩個禮拜他會做調查報告出來我等到調查報告出來了以後到底是浪費公帑移送法辦還是合法雲芝查汙不法我等到勞動部的調查報告出來以後我會再具體的請教主計長"},{"start":183.325,"end":206.025,"text":"但我今天要舉證的項目是什麼來看一下我在看這些計畫內容的時候我以前一直在追原民會的主委你哪裡來一百多萬啊去出你個人的寫真集我就去找預算書啊錢哪裡來的啊今天我來請主計長仔細看一下齁他說"},{"start":207.253,"end":222.721,"text":"我要推動原住民族政策法規內容有三項一個是要收集整理原住民族相關政策施政計畫97萬6第二個項目本會施政方針施政計畫及業務工作報告彙整編5萬"},{"start":224.468,"end":253.547,"text":"第三個項目推動原住民族政策及法規編室外我想要第一個請教主記長的是他在內容寫這樣的內容這個內容是參考用還是裝飾用還是要限定你就要做這件事情來請教主記長這個主要是針對他的一個業務的一個需求去做一個敘述然後這個整個也配合他的一個計畫所以他花錢要不要受到"},{"start":254.722,"end":261.668,"text":"這個限制那這個部分就是必須要跟他計畫的內容相關那如果內容不相關呢?"},{"start":263.613,"end":291.992,"text":"內容不相關因為一般我們的預算的用途別他有雲枝的一個相關的規定不好意思你講大聲一點我聽起來有點吃力不過真的不好意思再麻煩主席長因為我們預算用途別也有雲枝的一個相關的規定所以這個部分大概就是如果對我了解雲枝的規定嘛但我給主席長看一下這個雲層什麼樣子我剛說他花145萬出個人寫真集沒有冤枉他啦"},{"start":293.171,"end":300.218,"text":"有很多人說他已經下台了下台不要追究對不起啊這個觀念我無法接受"},{"start":301.684,"end":327.694,"text":"他下台了以後之前幹的事情都不用追究那以後大家有樣學樣大家都這樣幹就可以了嘛原民會主委可以出個人寫真集我速發部部長也長得很帥啊我也可以出個人寫真集啊沒有寫在預算書裡面不要擔心我可以找得出錢怎麼找得出錢我秀給主計長看 來"},{"start":329.953,"end":355.865,"text":"結果他說要收集整理原住民相關政策97萬6全部拿去出寫真集本會施政方針5萬也全部拿去推動原住民族政策法規也全部拿去結果寫了三個不同的內容搞了半天花的時候是同一個用途就是幫主委出他個人歌功頌德的東西"},{"start":357.521,"end":379.421,"text":"結果還不夠 不夠也沒有關係我還有一個新的項目叫做辦理原住民族人口基礎庫規劃及建設研究連要辦理原住民族人口基礎資料庫的規劃及建設研究都可以撥38萬4去幫他出個人的寫真集這就是您剛剛所講的雲芝嘛"},{"start":381.191,"end":396.09,"text":"來 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自治的主管機關?要跟委員報告,依據憲法的說明,本來地方唯有辦法執行事務,中央可以代替。而且,最重要的事情是,我們的目的是為了保障人民生命財產的安全,尤其是像內政補強這部分,本來我們就應該要協助。我都知道,但是可以在地方,來主席講,這中間就是很簡單嘛。"},{"start":141.869,"end":158.654,"text":"我國的財政收支出了問題地方政府財源不足財政困難所以該做的事情由中央來補助就像剛剛次長所說的第一建築物補強竟然要中央補助重鋪道路要地方補助新建停車場要地方補助"},{"start":159.694,"end":179.626,"text":"這就是回到我們現在財政委員會要修的財政收支劃分法財政劃分法裡面讓所有的地方政府都財源不足所以對中央政府必須要為起聯展現中央的權威來由中央來分配相關的預算今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子所以主計長"},{"start":180.566,"end":207.657,"text":"我們在這裡已經問過很多次了你到底要多少錢是不影響中央正式運作又可以下放給地方的從這個前瞻預算就看得很清楚有這麼多錢其實本來就是地方該有的但是我們中央把錢全都掌握在手裡今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子主席長你到底算出來中央政府到底可以釋放多少垂直分配給地方政府了嗎你已經算了好幾個月了"},{"start":208.505,"end":209.146,"text":"財政部負責財政部負責"},{"start":228.662,"end":240.772,"text":"還有工程會的陳主委內政部的消防署署長我想請問一下地震跟海嘯的預警對你們的救災來說是不是很重要消防署"},{"start":245.144,"end":262.995,"text":"地震跟海嘯是我們事先要來處理的因為火災、損失跟躲避海嘯都是消防署必須要做處理的好,現在交通部有一個交通部氣象署有一個海嵐建制計畫交通部次長請上台次長,這個計畫多久了?從110年招商到現在你知道嗎?"},{"start":273.939,"end":294.127,"text":"110年招標到現在留標了10次由氣象署的地震中心他們已經招標了10次都留標而且從原來的預算25億要做800公里6個觀測站一直修正到只做200公里3個觀測站經費從25億暴增到27億到今天為止還沒有標出去剛剛講"},{"start":300.458,"end":325.265,"text":"地震很重要、預警很重要、交通部這個案子、這個海嵐線重不重要?市長你什麼都不知道是嗎?不是,我跟委員報告,那個剛講的,因為這個廠商相對廠商的專業性的部分比較少啦。是!那流標然後...110年到113年,3年了。第二個,來我今天特別請工程會的陳竺瑞。你知道這個計畫嗎?"},{"start":330.997,"end":356.306,"text":"他從25億800公里的6座觀測站修正到200公里3座的觀測站金額從25億暴增到27億項目變少金額增加這個是減相發包嗎?減相發包是合法的吧?還是不合法?減相發包也是採購法裡面的可以的方法所以我想請問一下交通部"},{"start":357.802,"end":378.361,"text":"檢像發包、修正、修正、再修正十次流標到今天為止如果今年沒有再標出去的話這個案子就要第一年的預算就要被收回了我想問一下中華民國政府對於這座海底的相關的這些電纜線我們的立場是什麼?行政院還要不要這個計畫?工程會會去協助檢討它的發包方式"},{"start":382.076,"end":407.23,"text":"所以工程會會協助已經3年多修正了兩次我要跟交通部說了一下因為我們跟地震中心我覺得他們也很可憐啊他們沒有多少人要做這麼大的計畫氣象署總共的預算才26億他要執行這個20他自己的預算才26億他一個單位要執行這麼多的預算然後全世界沒有幾家在做所有的廠商都是拿去做"},{"start":408.968,"end":411.01,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":430.458,"end":457.503,"text":"交通部是我們來檢討不是檢討到年底就要最後一次投標沒有投的話你的錢就要第一年的錢就會被註銷了接下去要怎麼辦我想因為剛剛提到的主要是做這個做這個工程的該花的錢要花不該花的錢不要亂花這個重要的事情擺在那邊擺了流標10次是很離譜的事好不好"},{"start":458.323,"end":486.806,"text":"地震中心很認真但他們做不到交通部、工程會還有甚至我希望今天在座的國科會一起來幫忙甚至這些海底電纜對台灣還有國家安全的影響甚至國防部是不是也要來參加好嗎?交通部你可以做到一個月之內把這件事情的來龍去脈搞清楚第二個請工程會協助第三個幫忙地震中心爭取更多的預算不然就是把整個計畫重新做檢討可以嗎?"},{"start":487.455,"end":488.276,"text":"委員會主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":3308,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（17時5分）謝謝主席，有請主計長、財政部國庫署署長、內政部次長、工程會陳主委、消防署署長。"],["主席：請陳主計長、陳署長、董次長、陳主委、蕭署長。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長以及各位官員，今天前瞻基礎建設其實是所謂的計畫性補助款，主計長，對吧！前瞻是不是所謂的計畫性補助款？不是！特別預算的特別補助款？中央補助地方政府很多的費用，包括公有建築物的耐震改善、重鋪道路、興建停車場、捷運建設、水環境治水，還有觀光建設，請問內政部次長，依照地方制度法，你剛剛聽到的這些項目是不是地方制度法裡面地方自治的事項？"],["董次長建宏：有一些是。"],["黃委員珊珊：大部分是，公有建築物的耐震改善絕對不會是中央應管的事項嘛！所以前瞻計畫裡面幾乎都是地方政府應該做的事，但是地方自治事項為什麼要中央來補助？因為地方沒有錢？"],["董次長建宏：不只是這樣，有些事情是基於公共利益與為了保障人民生命財產安全，所以中央可以代行之。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的理解，也就是說地方政府本來就該做的事，但是地方政府沒有錢，所以中央很好心，還去借了8,400億元的前瞻預算來給地方政府補助，這個前瞻預算到現在為止，有沒有違反事權分配原則？內政部，你是地方自治的主管機關。"],["董次長建宏：依據憲法的說明，本來地方沒有辦法執行事務，中央可以代行之，最重要的事情是，我們的目的是為了保障人民生命財產之安全，尤其是像耐震補強這部分，本來我們就應該要協助。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，這中間很簡單嘛！我國的財政收支出了問題，地方政府財源不足、財政困難，所以該做的事情由中央來補助，就像剛剛次長所說的，建築物補強竟然要中央補助，重鋪道路要中央補助，興建停車場要中央補助，這就回到我們現在財政委員會要修的財政收支劃分法，財劃法裡面讓所有的地方政府都財源不足，所以對中央政府必須搖尾乞憐，展現中央的權威，由中央來分配相關的預算，今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子。主計長，我們在這裡已經問過很多次了，到底要多少錢是不影響中央政事運作又可以下放給地方的，從前瞻預算就可以看得很清楚，有這麼多錢，其實本來就是地方該有的，但是中央把錢權都掌握在手裡，今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子。主計長，你到底算出來中央政府到底可以釋放多少垂直分配給地方政府了嗎？你已經算了好幾個月了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我是針對支出……"],["黃委員珊珊：你還是算不出來，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我是針對支出的部分中央會影響多少，財劃法垂直或水平分配的部分，是財政部在負責。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以結論是，我覺得行政院還是很不負責任。接下來我想請問一下交通部和工程會陳主委。請問內政部消防署署長，地震和海嘯的預警對你們救災來說是不是很重要？"],["蕭署長煥章：地震跟海嘯是我們事先要來處理的地方。"],["黃委員珊珊：非常地重要，對吧！因為火災損失和躲避海嘯都是消防署必須要處理的。交通部氣象署有一個海纜建置計畫，交通部次長請上臺。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，這個計畫多久了？從110年招商到現在，你知道嗎？110年招標到現在，流標了10次，由氣象署的地震中心已經招標10次都流標，而且從原來的預算25億元要做800公里、6個觀測站一直修正到只做200公里3個觀測站，經費從25億元暴增到27億元，到今天為止還沒有標出去。剛講了，地震很重要，預警很重要，交通部這個案子，海纜線重不重要？次長，你什麼都不知道，是嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：不是，因為具有專業性的廠商相對比較少，流標然後預算比較多……"],["黃委員珊珊：從110年到113年，3年了。我今天特別請工程會的陳主委，你知道這個計畫嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：抱歉，我並不清楚。"],["黃委員珊珊：它從25億元、800公里的6座觀測站修正到200公里3座觀測站，金額從25億元暴增到27億元，項目變少、金額增加，這個是減項發包嗎？減項發包是合法的吧！還是不合法？"],["陳主任委員金德：減項發包也是採購法裡面的一種方式。"],["黃委員珊珊：請問交通部，減項發包修正、修正、再修正，10次流標到今天為止，如果今年沒有再標出去的話，這個案子第一年的預算就要被收回了。請問，中華民國政府對於海底的相關電纜線的立場是什麼？行政院還要不要這個計畫？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會會去協助檢討它的發包方式。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以工程會會協助？已經三年多，修正了2次，我要跟交通部說一下，我覺得地震中心也很可憐，它們沒有多少人，要做這麼大的計畫，氣象署自己的預算才26億元，它一個單位要執行這麼多的預算，然後全世界沒有幾家在做，電信公司都把廠商搶走了，沒有人要做我們這個東西，所以交通部這件事情很重要，如果很重要的話，你去問問行政院要不要多給一點錢、要不要把這些前瞻的錢也拿出來幫忙一下地震中心，要不要讓行政院把這個計畫成為我們中華民國重要的計畫。"],["伍次長勝園：這我們來檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是檢討，到年底就要最後一次投標了，沒有的話，你第一年的錢就會被註銷，接下去要怎麼辦？"],["伍次長勝園：主要是做這個工程的……"],["黃委員珊珊：該花的錢要花，不該花的錢不要亂花，這個重要的事情擺在那邊，流標10次是很離譜的事啊！好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：地震中心很認真，但是它們做不到，交通部、工程會，甚至我希望今天在座的國科會一起來幫忙，甚至這些海底電纜對臺灣還有國家安全的影響，甚至國防部是不是也要來參加。交通部你可以做到1個月之內把這件事情的來龍去脈搞清楚；第二個，請工程會協助；第三個，幫忙地震中心爭取更多的預算，不然就是把整個計畫重新做檢討，可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：可以，我們1個月之內檢討出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：1個月之內給我報告。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：而且如果這次再流標，我希望工程會你們要完全重新了解它們整個過程，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接著請許智傑委員，許智傑、許智傑，許智傑不在。","林淑芬、林淑芬、林淑芬，林淑芬委員不在。","廖偉翔、廖偉翔、廖偉翔，廖偉翔委員不在。","請林俊憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫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眼前都不夠用"},{"start":164.758,"end":177.425,"text":"這件事情會衝擊台灣所謂的四大衝擊教育的衝擊教育的大學生未來會剩下目前的三分之一教育部有沒有在準備國防的衝擊減少這樣剩下30%我們的兵力社福的衝擊達到56%經濟的衝擊幾乎全面性的衝擊我在這些預算當中都沒有看到這些東西"},{"start":190.776,"end":207.662,"text":"閉著眼睛還有跟鄉鎮有關的提了一大堆的地方建設預測全台有三分之的鄉鎮會被消滅我不曉得前瞻計畫跟這些事情有什麼關係好像大家都沒看到"},{"start":210.626,"end":219.841,"text":"倒數42天,台灣進入超高齡社會,各部會有關於超高齡社會的相關前瞻計畫嗎?"},{"start":224.776,"end":239.53,"text":"從這些目前又提出來的這個第5期的計畫裡面我請問這個國發會自行評估一下這5期的前瞻基礎建設計畫有達成原先對未來國家發展的設定目標嗎?請問一下"},{"start":241.472,"end":263.692,"text":"是,謝謝委員。那個我想前瞻計畫推動這些年來,其實它對於提升國人的生活品質,還有均衡台灣,譬如說一些偏鄉的照顧,還有我們一些經濟建設,譬如說有關半導體的研究,這個引進國際廠商等等,其實在這方面都有一些具體的成果。委員剛剛提到...等一下,OK,那我請問你給這個前瞻計畫打幾分?"},{"start":267.157,"end":267.337,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":292.578,"end":293.539,"text":"主席"},{"start":312.981,"end":316.404,"text":"這就是國家的災難整個國家的災難在這裡所有的部會完全沒有在看這件事情因為我的時間有限"},{"start":327.961,"end":346.306,"text":"好 有些部會都已經在響應我在倡導的壯世代這個就是最近諮詢月剛結束我在這裡但是沒時間請各位上台蘇發部蘇發部做了一個壯世代董資樂園出現的壯世代的人潮"},{"start":347.106,"end":374.326,"text":"過去都叫熱領、熱領什麼資訊區幾乎都沒人現在用這一個蘇發布但是我在看蘇發布的新的年度的預算裡面也沒有規劃這一些這一些腦袋思維有但是行動都沒有希望這一次的成功能夠給蘇發布一個勇氣能夠好好的來降低我們這種世代的包括"},{"start":375.106,"end":378.668,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":393.598,"end":405.866,"text":"整個的超高齡社會才是真正的前瞻這是台灣未來已經被定型的結構這個國發會是最了解的你們是要領導整個要勇於發聲"},{"start":409.068,"end":411.39,"text":"請問我們的行政院有給這樣做一個什麼回應?有回應告訴我們國人進入超高齡的社會我們要做什麼?"},{"start":433.588,"end":450.769,"text":"所以請各部會在這次第5期的一個前瞻預算當中要把這個部分納入你的這個預算的編列裡面以上謝謝謝謝吳春城委員謝謝委員邱正軍委員用書面質詢那接著我們請黃珊珊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":3284,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（16時57分）請國發會副主委。"],["主席：國發會詹副主委。"],["吳委員春城：還有其他的也一起上來吧！今天前瞻預算是國發會的主管業務，主委又沒來。"],["主席：還有哪個部會？"],["吳委員春城：所以是不是其他的一起上來吧！"],["主席：「其他」是指有預算的嗎？「其他」是指其他部會？"],["吳委員春城：沒有，就是國發會的所有代表，你們來了幾位，就一起上來。"],["主席：國發會的團隊。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：這都是你們主管的業務。首先要請問一下，前瞻建設預算8,400億要花完了嘛，對不對？那我要請問，我們前瞻了嗎？聽了一整天，大家感覺都還是錢不夠、人不夠，什麼都不夠，到底要多少錢？這是一個潮流嗎？政府越來越臃腫、越來越肥大，後來很多需要的都是被自己吃掉，真正國家的發展目標達到了嗎？","最近川普宣布要成立政府效率部，馬斯克還號稱要把428個聯邦機構砍到剩下99個，削減率達到77%，那我們呢？我們還要再更多嗎？這個方向應該值得國發會好好的研究一下。你們是負責國家發展的方向，如果國家發展方向完全沒有策略，就是這樣子沒完沒了的，國發會大概可以廢掉了。最重要的事情，未來30年就是這件事情，國發會最了解，你們10月17日也公布臺灣未來50年人口要減少將近1,000萬人。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["吳委員春城：各部會看見了嗎？我們的人口從金字塔變成倒金字塔，叫天翻地覆，前瞻不就是要看這個事情嗎？在整個前瞻計畫裡面，幾乎沒有看到這個東西，沒有人在為這個國家未來發展的方向做準備，都還在混戰眼前，眼前都不夠用，這件事情會衝擊臺灣所謂的四大衝擊，教育的衝擊，大學生未來會剩下目前的三分之一，教育部有沒有在準備？國防的衝擊，我們的兵力減少到剩下30%。社福的衝擊，達到56%。經濟的衝擊，幾乎全面性的衝擊，我在預算當中都沒有看到這些東西，閉著眼睛。還有跟鄉鎮有關的，提了一大堆的地方建設，預測全臺有三分之一的鄉鎮會被消滅，我不曉得前瞻計畫跟這些事情有什麼關係，好像大家都沒看到。倒數42天臺灣進入超高齡社會，各部會有關於超高齡社會的相關前瞻計畫嗎？從目前提出來的第五期計畫裡面，我請國發會自行評估一下，這五期的前瞻基礎建設計畫有達成原先對未來國家發展的設定目標嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員，我想前瞻計畫推動這些年來，對於提升國人的生活品質和均衡臺灣，例如一些偏鄉的照顧，還有一些經濟建設，例如有關半導體的研究、引進國際廠商等等，其實在這方面都有一些具體的成果。委員剛才提到……"],["吳委員春城：請問你給前瞻計畫打幾分？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不適合由我打分數。"],["吳委員春城：你不是督導單位嗎？考核單位？錢花完了，總是要評估一下嘛！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，我們每年都會有年度的績效報告，最後結束以後……"],["吳委員春城：績效報告出來是幾分呢？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：績效報告應該沒有直接打分數。"],["吳委員春城：沒有打分數！如果馬斯克來的話，你覺得這邊要砍多少？OK！顯然就是沒有想法嘛！沒有想法，作為一個前瞻，但是沒有一個前瞻目標，我剛才提到了，我在看到整個超高齡社會，幾乎在所有的計畫裡面都沒有，就是很小的，都是應付的，還是用金字塔社會的思維在想這些事情，這就是國家的災難啊！整個國家的災難，在這裡所有的部會完全沒有在看這件事情。有些部會都已經響應我在倡導的壯世代，資訊月剛結束，數發部做了一個壯世代懂資樂園，出現了壯世代的人潮，過去都叫樂齡什麼資訊區，幾乎都沒人，現在用這個，但是我在看數發部新的年度預算裡面也沒有規劃這些，腦袋思維有，但是行動都沒有，希望這次的成功能夠給數發部一個勇氣，好好地來降低我們這種世代的……包括教育部也要展開第三人生大學的規劃，都可以看到這個方向，包括勞動部，高舉壯世代重返職場，很多的績效，但是最近都不願意再往前走一步，所以整個超高齡社會才是真正的前瞻，這是臺灣未來被定型的結構，這個國發會是最了解的，你們是要引導整個、要勇於發聲，在行政院裡面勇於發聲，要各部應定下KPI、定下方向，要各部會不要把這個當成枝微末節。明年2025年臺灣進入超高齡社會，請問我們的行政院有給這樣做什麼回應？有回應告訴我們國人進入超高齡社會要做什麼？請各部會在這次第五期前瞻預算當中，要把這個部分納入你的預算編列裡面。謝謝。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員。","邱鎮軍委員用書面質詢。","接著請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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第一個問題結束第二個問題啊 來 交通部交通部就是五次長喔"},{"start":139.945,"end":151.631,"text":"是,這個前瞻的經費在過去8年的軌道建設大概負擔了40%38%左右那未來還有很多的軌道建設需要很多經費"},{"start":153.188,"end":169.185,"text":"你如果按照一般的這個年度的預算各部的預算沒有辦法去適應這些龐大的軌道建設所以我期待是不是你可以續推所謂3.0或者類前瞻的計畫來針對未來要執行的重大軌道建設"},{"start":171.267,"end":184.617,"text":"讓這個預算能夠得到這個確實很多計畫提出來你用年度預算是沒有辦法支應的先是政府的財源有限一定要內前瞻計畫或者前瞻3.0您的看法如何"},{"start":185.683,"end":200.263,"text":"跟委員報告齁我想前瞻建設計畫裡面包括不只有軌道啦齁那這部分其實我覺得應該不是只有江部可以去做決定我們大概會配合那我是針對軌道建設的部分啦但是對但是這裡面剛講的"},{"start":201.304,"end":224.533,"text":"前瞻的部分就不只是只有軌道的部分包括其他的我說的是關於前瞻裡面軌道建設的部分後面有很多新興計畫你如果這個前瞻計畫的裡面軌道建設沒有後續的經費來源那你很難去去完成後續的計畫這個希望說你再去跟陳部長再好好討論一下這個我在交通委員會我也質詢過了另外凱米颱風啊"},{"start":229.045,"end":258.067,"text":"造成輪船擱淺有5個船惡意棄之交通部是先墊前後追討這個部分你們怎麼處理這個應該沒問題我們後面剛剛講的一開始當然找船東嘛那包括那個保險公司那如果沒有就由我們來處理那這部分我們跟他追查好這個部分提出這個問題讓你們去注意好最後一個問題請文化部"},{"start":259.789,"end":261.051,"text":"請文化部李部長部長你邊走我邊講"},{"start":267.759,"end":289.58,"text":"文化資產這個修復這個各縣市都有這個預算需求但是每年的預算有限所以每年的案各縣市都有這個需求當然預算那麼的少我希望說你在明年度的計畫能夠多撥補一些滿足這些這個文化資產修復預算的這些預算缺口"},{"start":291.663,"end":291.784,"text":"羅廷偉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":3159,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（16時41分）主席，你好。我先講一下心裡面的話。我先講一下心裡面的話，我們兩個都是召委，我在經濟委員會，你在財政委員會，我做召委，對於發言時間的管控以身作則，分秒不差，時間到我一定停止質詢……"],["主席：你現在講就可以算時間了嗎？"],["邱委員志偉：等一下吧。我覺得遵守發言質詢時間是一個國會議員基本的素質，如果時間你完全沒有辦法掌控，講到天、講到地、講到海、講到山，對於後面在等質詢的人是一種霸凌，我覺得我有被霸凌的感覺。"],["主席：好，那你用了1分鐘。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我希望你要遵……國會議員的基本素質對發言時間要尊重，如果你連這點都做不到，你如何完成對選民、對國家的承諾呢？我心有戚戚焉。"],["主席：還有嗎？我們尊重每位委員的發言。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我4分鐘一定是很準時。"],["主席：好，剛剛已經用了1分鐘了喔！"],["邱委員志偉：第一個問題請國發會。"],["主席：哪一位？好，請國發會詹副主委。還有呢？"],["邱委員志偉：我沒有說還有，就國發會而已。"],["主席：好，國發會，謝謝，我一起叫比較快。"],["邱委員志偉：我一定很準時，分秒不差，我做給你看。"],["主席：好，剛剛要扣1分鐘喔。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：國發會負責的前瞻計畫第3期進度有落後，第4期的執行率也沒有達到很好的情況，這個部分我希望國發會要控管，相關計畫的執行要跟各部會去協調，前瞻計畫第一個要及時，這樣效果才能發揮，你如果第3期還在落後，第4期執行率還不到九成，那個效果就有差，所以我覺得國發會監督的角色很重要。","好，第一個問題結束，第二個問題，來，請交通部。"],["主席：交通部就是伍次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：次長，這個前瞻的經費在過去8年的軌道建設大概負擔了四十趴、三十八趴左右，未來還有很多的軌道建設需要很多的經費，如果按照一般各部會的年度預算沒有辦法去支應這些龐大的軌道建設，所以我期待是不是你可以續推所謂的3.0或者類前瞻的計畫，讓未來要執行的重大軌道建設預算能夠確實得到，否則很多計畫提出來，你用年度預算是沒有辦法支應的，縣市政府的財源有限，一定要有類前瞻計畫或者前瞻3.0，您的看法如何？"],["伍次長勝園：跟委員報告，我想前瞻建設計畫裡面不只包括有軌道，這部分其實我覺得應該不是只有交通部可以決定，我們大概會配合……"],["邱委員志偉：不，我是針對軌道建設的部分啦！"],["伍次長勝園：對，但是這裡面，剛剛講的前瞻就不只是有軌道的部分，還包括其他的。"],["邱委員志偉：我說的是關於前瞻裡面軌道建設的部分，後面有很多新興計畫，如果前瞻計畫裡面的軌道建設沒有後續的經費來源，很難去完成後續的計畫。這部分我希望你再去跟陳部長好好討論一下。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個我在交通委員會也質詢過。另外，凱米颱風造成多艘輪船擱淺，其中有5艘遭船東惡意棄置，交通部是先墊錢後追討，這個部分你們怎麼處理？"],["伍次長勝園：這個應該沒有問題，我們後面如你剛剛講的，一開始當然找船東，包括保險公司。如果沒有的話，就由我們來處理，這個部分我們會跟他追償。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這部分我提出這個問題請你們去注意。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["邱委員志偉：最後一個問題請文化部。"],["主席：請文化部李部長。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，你邊走我邊講。文化資產的修復，各縣市都有這個預算需求，但是每年的預算有限。每年各縣市都有這個需求，但你預算那麼的少，我希望你在明年度的計畫能夠多撥補一些，滿足文化資產修復的這些預算缺口。"],["李部長遠：對，的確太少了。的確太少，所以每年到了4月我們接受大家的申請……"],["邱委員志偉：的確太少。我的時間到了，其他用書面資料給我。謝謝。"],["李部長遠：OK，好，我會加油。"],["主席：謝謝。對，很好，但是他們都沒有回答到，謝謝。","接著請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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check要雙項查核甚至三項查核嘛"},{"start":252.085,"end":277.831,"text":"不能這樣子訊息過去就直接下架這一次把正版粉專下架不管你是要推脫責任、表達遺憾還是道歉了事都可以但政府還是要負起責任請問這一次警政署或者是之前警政署你們這一次的粉專跟你們無關那為什麼有這樣的一個訊息呢?這個訊息是造假的嗎?是深偽嗎?是駭客入侵嗎?警政署要不要調查?有沒有人冒用你們的名字?"},{"start":279.654,"end":287.13,"text":"當然如果有犯罪嫌疑我們警政署都會提出這已經不是如果啦網紅截圖啊他被下架之後收到這個通知啊"},{"start":288.325,"end":312.885,"text":"您們有沒有反應?這不是如果啊!這不是如果!我們有跟Meta聯絡,Meta是他們...他回應什麼?下下不受我們通報的資料Meta他們勾勵以後是他們篩選...不好意思副署長,我問的是這個訊息,真訊息、假訊息、偽造訊息還是駭客入侵?要不要調查?這不是如果啊!已經發生啦!"},{"start":318.516,"end":321.257,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":343.907,"end":348.5,"text":"訴發部應該要肩負起訴政府部會跟平台業者溝通協調的責任"},{"start":350.794,"end":375.343,"text":"所有部會其實也不只是警政署啦,其實還有其他部會,包含可能像經管會,還有更多的部會其實都在跟這些平台業者聯繫。那平台業者要如何查核?你3個部會來3個名單,4個部會來4個名單,也有可能會讓他搞錯嘛。他搞錯當然他要負責,但是我們政府不用負責有一個完整的溝通管道嗎?"},{"start":376.543,"end":394.613,"text":"出發部部長能不能有一個統合的一個機制去扮演業者跟政府之間的這種溝通的角色我們可以包含那個委員我們有個打炸的指揮中心那打炸指揮中心的那個就是有那個來總統一來做部會之間的協調所以以後這種東西我們會協調"},{"start":395.774,"end":416.752,"text":"那中心的負責應該是?打造指揮中心是由院長主持現在踢到院長這邊去啦那所以是不是院長要出來負責囉?我是指揮中心是由院長主持那當然我們有其他的部會在裡面一起來協調速發部是主管平台業者尤其是這些平台、經濟、數位廣告"},{"start":418.473,"end":440.434,"text":"我希望您可以在此承諾啦,未來如果有必要要封鎖帳號,希望各部會應該要有一個通盤的一個單一的這種聯繫,或者要在頁面上清楚標示到底是哪個部會因為什麼原因要封鎖帳號,同時也應該要續名就緝的管道,讓民眾有申訴的機會,政府內部也要有完整的記錄可供查詢,"},{"start":441.195,"end":466.532,"text":"封鎖哪個帳號?什麼時候封鎖?為什麼要封鎖?內部可以記錄,你可以去識別化,但是應該要可以回溯、可以查詢。不然一件事情幾十個粉專,連證交所自己的粉專都受害,沒有人知道是誰的問題,各說各話。我們會協調,那我們在內部會把這個效果做得更好。最後不好意思主席再請財政部副說主宋署長下下。"},{"start":470.367,"end":471.248,"text":"因為近期你們最近有宣布說要來課稅所以整個產業為之嘩然關於虛擬貨幣我想虛擬貨幣是一個新興的產業在之前你們才講這就是你們想要做的事情"},{"start":494.37,"end":509.038,"text":"結果你們之前2024年3月20號才說比特幣沒有內在價值結果現在川普上任了比特幣大漲了破新高昨天晚上9萬4千美金你們現在就跑出來說要課稅了說它有價值了"},{"start":510.218,"end":538.241,"text":"這個做法對不對啊?您對於這個政府這樣的一個做法,你們同意嗎?我想啦,這個我想我節省一點時間,先告訴您喔,署長。就我們所知啊,其實全世界各國,包含泰國,包含阿聯酋,包含瑞士,都有租稅優惠。我們要有棍子跟蘿蔔,不要看到新興產業,就想棒打它兩下,然後看到有錢可以拿,就趕快來收錢,等到暴跌的時候又不管它。"},{"start":540.404,"end":552.958,"text":"這個產業的振興跟我們的這種跟我們的這個民眾的這個不管是課稅也好這做法要並行啊不是不可以課稅但是要做到產業的鼓勵這個部分能不能請署長回去了解一下"},{"start":553.895,"end":580.277,"text":"我跟委員報告其實所謂虛擬通貨的部分如果它真的是貨幣的話基本上是沒有課稅的問題但是目前在台灣把虛擬貨幣的部分是定位成數位商品數位商品就是屬於一般的商品它的交易所得它的交易本來就有1、2稅的問題另外交易所得也會有所得稅的問題其實我們從頭到尾都是根據主管機關的相關法律來做相關的課稅規範我們並沒有改變過"},{"start":582.499,"end":582.619,"text":"主席響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":3098,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（16時31分）謝謝主席，有請數發部部長跟警政署副署長備詢。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍）：請黃部長、詹副署長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好、副署長好。社群平臺臉書11月15號深夜下架很多無辜的、正版的財經網紅粉絲專頁，截至昨天為止，我們都還沒有辦法知道真相，數發部和警政署某種程度各說各話，有很多民眾在批評這些提供服務的平臺，在這個平臺上面罵平臺，但沒有關係。總之有民眾受害了，有網紅受害了，數發部黃部長、警政署詹副署長，兩位是不是能夠先向無辜受害的民眾表示歉意？"],["黃部長彥男：不是歉意，對於這次的事件，我們覺得不應該讓它發生，因為據我們兩邊的了解，我們去調查的結果是臉書在作業的時候，他們內部的錯誤造成的，我們並沒有下令要他們移出這些所謂網紅在臉書的粉絲專頁，所以這個顯然是他們內部的問題，當然，我為這個感到惋惜，這樣一個大公司發生這樣的錯是不應該的。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以感到遺憾啦！副署長，因為有人說是警政署給的訊息，您願不願意表達歉意啊？打詐打到大家惶惶不安。"],["詹副署長永茂：謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明，這個是發生在15號的晚上9點鐘……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，副署長，我待會有機會讓您說明，你有沒有要表達歉意啦？我待會還會問啦。"],["詹副署長永茂：這個正如剛剛部長說的，這是Meta本身內部篩選機制，跟警政署……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，Meta的問題嘛！好，兩位真的是要面對，我想至少部長有表達遺憾。我想請問，我國廣告平臺業務跟平臺經濟的主管機關是哪一個部會？廣告平臺業務、數位經濟。"],["黃部長彥男：我們就是負責那幾個廣告平臺的打詐工作，所以這個……"],["葛委員如鈞：下架下對下錯不是打詐的一環嗎？是嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：這次被移除是因為……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們的網詐通查網裡面就有提供下架通報的服務嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：那是詐騙的廣告。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有喔！部長，我們已經調出資料，你們有幫很多商業服務，某數字商的網購平臺，一個小時之內幫它下架假粉專喔！"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，你要確定喔！"],["黃部長彥男：我們有一個RPZ的機制，如果我們收到不管是哪一個單位的行政命令或者是法規要求，我們是可以用DNS 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5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},{"id":"157243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab455283c269bab8ca1ff0707298ac1983dab7a15ce7d2e480e3ae72de851352f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"16:22:21 - 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有請速發部黃部長跟農業部好 我們請速發部跟農業部上台"},{"start":18.861,"end":39.195,"text":"部長,你們速發布113年補助中華電信到今年第3季為止補助中華電信及它的網路技術分公司23億多萬我想請問你記不記得在今年5月份的時候有電視台的名嘴在電視上公開說他們發現"},{"start":42.717,"end":66.429,"text":"按照手機訊號分析指出他們發現在青島東路的這個小草跟在凱達格蘭大道的這個民眾還有跟那時候在這個青鳥在這個立法院外面那些青鳥按照訊號的比對是不同的人你記得有這段嗎?你記得這件事情嗎?記得嗎?你要說商量的喔?"},{"start":68.167,"end":71.228,"text":"那時候就爆發了這個政府應該說電信公司用手機監控民眾的疑慮那時候速發部曾經說技術上的確可能應用手機訊號分析用戶的個人資料"},{"start":89.953,"end":111.973,"text":"但是呢這個需要兩個資料就是一個基地台的服務的用戶號碼還有電信事業客戶資料庫用來分析特定區域用戶來但是一般民眾呢拿到這兩同時拿到這兩個一般的民眾跟一般的公司同時拿到這些資料的可能性極低對不對這是你們那時候的回覆啊對沒錯對不對"},{"start":114.755,"end":139.645,"text":"對,需要有法律的移均,這個是在各自保護裡面,所以辦案是,這是在各自保護裡頭嘛,但是有名嘴公開在電視講說有這樣的事情那我請問啦,蘇發部,你們一年補助這麼多預算,好像補助電信的三大業者齁但是呢,你們任由他們來監控人民齁,那後來認為怎麼樣?中央第一說沒有,他們沒有監控人民對不對?他們就有說他們沒有這樣做對不對?"},{"start":141.931,"end":163.756,"text":"報告委員我們補助主要是補助像5G的建設對我知道我知道我知道嘛我們政府當然是補助各個5G建設基地還有各方面偏鄉我知道這些我都知道齁這個等一下我來問你但是呢你們在補助這些業者的同時你們看他們在做這些監督監控民眾手機訊號信息有做出調查嗎"},{"start":165.726,"end":195.229,"text":"有調查嗎?報告委員,通信監察是NCC在主管我知道,但是你們給錢啊所以我要說你們,我知道NCC我知道,NCC我也是會問還有交通部,這個中華電力還有我們交通部的這個股份所以,我是說你們這樣補因為你們給錢,你們對它有一定的支撐量它要跟你申請預算嘛但我知道你是做別的地方但是面對業者這樣子監控齁這個可以分析人流、分析資料來到這些業者"},{"start":196.67,"end":221.711,"text":"你們訪問這些業者一方面領我們的錢是來自國家領我們國家的錢同時來監控國民我們補助是基地站不是在後面的基地我知道你們補助基地站就是我下台所以我要說這個事情的發生是很嚴重的事情我希望你們趕快也給我一個報告你們知道的部分因為你們給人家錢嘛我懷疑他們會不會就是用你們補助的錢從中模用去啊也有可能啊對不對"},{"start":222.912,"end":232.222,"text":"一個禮拜內給我報告這個事件的報告那當然你們的這個補助你說這個偏鄉地區的這個部分你看請問你們有沒有補助我們今天的真話電信"},{"start":233.612,"end":259.929,"text":"偏鄉的補助就是在我們這個是對一般有沒有補助金門金門算是偏遠地區嗎金門應該金門有有嗎有但是我們金門的民眾抱怨很多抱怨很多我這裡有很多資料給你沒有訊號啦什麼卡卡的啊什麼非常多常常斷訊啊報告委員我們在今年的前瞻還會再加強還會再加強這個部分我要給我一個檢討民眾的反應非常的多我請問農業"},{"start":261.63,"end":281.264,"text":"一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝農業部委員好農業部我想請問你我們金門有一個養牛場驗出一個牛節節診對不對對8月30號所以8月30號我知道所以你們就宣布為了確保整體產業安全公告暫停金門縣的牛隻生鮮冷凍冷藏牛肉運往台灣台灣島運往台灣島"},{"start":284.166,"end":310.415,"text":"報告委員,不是我們8月30日之後宣布目前在8月30日之前一直都不能讓它進來因為WOAH就是世界動物組織把台灣澎湖跟馬祖是我們是不施打疫苗的我知道,昨天部長有跟我講反正我們金門跟你不同國我知道,台灣金門馬祖跟你一國因為金門的這個施打疫苗沒有落實我先問你一件事情"},{"start":311.135,"end":313.177,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":327.314,"end":327.414,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":327.414,"end":327.794,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":327.794,"end":330.215,"text":"因為WOAH 什麼意思?"},{"start":330.215,"end":353.905,"text":"因為WOAH 是這樣規定的 那個叫做骨骼肌啦 骨骼肌本來就是可以進來 因為日本也是沒有打 日本也是牛結節診陽性 我們也是牛結節診陽性 沒有錯 可是他們也是WOAH宣布的跟我們台灣所以你是告訴我說是WOAH告訴你說日本可以進來台灣 然後我們基本不能進來台灣喔?"},{"start":354.485,"end":354.505,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":373.033,"end":374.814,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期"},{"start":391.083,"end":411.37,"text":"一國兩制喔?不是一國兩制是因為金門沒有落實施打疫苗所以他到現在抗體不足所以我們怕他的不管是我們的這個口蹄疫或是鳥結症會影響到台灣我們好不容易已經變成清靜我告訴你你們給我回答也不只是這樣子你們還說因為我們跟中國大陸距離很近"},{"start":412.27,"end":412.57,"text":"請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":435.964,"end":436.764,"text":"我希望你是不是還要提出"},{"start":462.892,"end":483.126,"text":"還是還是提出還是提出這種就是有沒有什麼方式防疫的部分來幫助金門因為我們你說我們跟大陸很近這不是我們願意這個地理位置就在那裡所以除了撲殺消毒打疫苗還有跟我們一些提出一些對策好嗎對這個部分請你們協助可以多多支持"},{"start":484.366,"end":485.026,"text":"接下來我們請葛如君委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2996,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（16時22分）謝謝主席，有請數發部黃部長跟農業部。"],["主席：好，請數發部跟農業部上臺。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，數發部113年到第3季為止，補助了中華電信及網路技術分公司二十三億七百多萬。我想請問你，你記不記得在今年5月份，有電視臺的名嘴在電視上公開說，他們按照手機訊號分析指數發現，在青島東路的小草跟在凱達格蘭大道的民眾，還有那時候在立法院外面的青鳥，按照訊號比對是不同的人，你記得這一段嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：記得。"],["陳委員玉珍：你記得這件事情嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：記得。"],["陳委員玉珍：記得嘛，你那時候上任了，5月份。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：你剛上任。"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛上任。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你剛上任，那時候就爆發了電信公司用手機監控民眾的疑慮，數發部曾經說，技術上的確可能應用手機訊號分析用戶的個人資料，但是需要兩個資料，一個是基地臺的服務用戶號碼，還有電信事業客戶資料庫，用來分析特定區域用戶，但是一般民眾跟一般公司同時拿到這兩個資料的可能性極低，對不對？這是你們那時候的回復。"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛。"],["黃部長彥男：對，需要有法律的依據，這個是在個資保護裡面，所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是在個資保護裡頭，但是有名嘴公開在電視說有這樣的事情。我請問數發部，你們一年編列這麼多預算補助電信的三大業者，但是你們任由他們來監控人民，那後來怎麼樣？中華電信說沒有，他們沒有監控人民，對不對？他們說他們沒有這樣做，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，報告委員，我們主要是補助5G的建設。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我知道，政府補助當然是補助5G建設基地臺。"],["黃部長彥男：包括在偏鄉……"],["陳委員玉珍：各方面……偏鄉，我知道，這些我都知道，這個等一下我還要問你，但是你們在補助這些業者的同時，你們看他們在做這些監控民眾手機訊號的事情，你們有做調查嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，通訊監察是NCC在主管的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，但是你們給錢啊，所以我要說你們……"],["黃部長彥男：NCC……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，NCC我也會問，還有交通部，交通部還有中華電信的股份。"],["黃部長彥男：對，這是交給他們調查……"],["陳委員玉珍：我是說，因為你們給錢，你們對他們有一定的制衡，他們會跟你們申請預算，我知道你們是做別的地方……"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是面對業者這樣子監控，可以分析人流、分析資料……"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們放任這些業者，你們的錢是來自國家，卻讓他們一方面領我們國家的錢，同時又來監控人民啊？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們補助是基地站，不是在後面的……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，你們補助基地站就是我下一條……所以我要說的是，發生這個事情是很嚴重的，我希望你們趕快給我一個報告，就你們知道的部分。因為你們給人家錢，我懷疑他們會不會就是用你們補助的錢從中挪用，也有可能啊，對不對？一個禮拜內給我報告，關於這個事件的報告。當然你們的補助，你說偏鄉地區的這個部分，請問你們有沒有補助金門的中華電信？"],["黃部長彥男：偏鄉的補助就是在我們……這個是……對，一般來說……"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有補助金門？金門算是偏遠地區嘛。"],["黃部長彥男：金門應該有，金門有。"],["陳委員玉珍：有嘛，但是金門的民眾抱怨很多，我這裡有很多資料可以給你，像是沒有訊號、卡卡的等等非常多，常常斷訊啊……"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們在今年的前瞻還會再加強。"],["陳委員玉珍：還會再加強？這個部分也要給我一個檢討報告。"],["黃部長彥男：我們今年……"],["陳委員玉珍：民眾的反映非常多，一個禮拜給我報告。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。請農業部。"],["胡次長忠一：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：農業部，我想請問你，金門有一個養牛場驗出牛結節疹，對不對？"],["胡次長忠一：對，8月30號。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，8月30號，我知道。所以你們就宣布，為了確保整體產業安全，公告暫停金門縣的牛隻及其生鮮、冷凍、冷藏牛肉運往臺灣島，沒錯吧？"],["胡次長忠一：報告委員，不是我們8月30號之後宣布，目前、在8月30號之前都一直不能讓它進來，因為WOAH（世界動物衛生組織）宣布臺灣、澎湖跟馬祖是不施打疫苗的非疫區……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，昨天部長有跟我講，反正我知道我們金門跟你不同國，臺灣、金門、馬祖跟你們一國。"],["胡次長忠一：不是，是不同區，因為金門施打疫苗沒有落實，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：我先問你一件事情，我之前也沒有什麼意見，如果金門有什麼問題，我們改善嘛。"],["胡次長忠一：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：前幾天我看到一個新聞，你們說日本也有牛結節疹，是日本、外國，為什麼日本的牛肉可以放行？"],["胡次長忠一：是，日本的……"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼？"],["胡次長忠一：因為WOAH……"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼意思？"],["胡次長忠一：你也讓我講一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。"],["胡次長忠一：WOAH是這樣規定的，那個叫做骨骼肌……"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼啦？"],["胡次長忠一：骨骼肌本來就可以進來，因為日本也是沒有打……"],["陳委員玉珍：日本牛是牛結節疹陽性，我們的牛也是牛結節疹陽性。"],["胡次長忠一：沒有錯，可是他們也是WOAH宣布，跟臺灣、澎湖跟馬祖一樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你是告訴我，是WOAH告訴你日本牛可以進來臺灣，然後金門牛不能進來臺灣喔？"],["胡次長忠一：不是這樣子……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是這樣子？"],["胡次長忠一：他們的牛奶不能進來，因為牛結節疹發生之前必須要90天……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們的牛有牛結節疹，那我們的牛奶也不要進來啊，但牛肉可以吧？"],["胡次長忠一：牛肉他沒有進來啊。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，我是說金門，日本牛肉可以進來，我知道他們的牛跟我們的牛有一樣的病，對不對？牛結節疹是同一種病，同樣的吧？"],["胡次長忠一：我這樣講啦，日本跟臺灣是同一個區，就是……"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，日本跟臺灣同一區，那金門跟臺灣不同區？"],["胡次長忠一：不施打疫苗的非疫區，牛結節疹發生了，所以我們擋他的牛奶，可是他的做法……"],["陳委員玉珍：金門跟臺灣不同區？你一國兩制喔？"],["胡次長忠一：不是一國兩制，是因為金門沒有落實施打疫苗，所以現在抗體不足，所以我們怕他的……不管是口蹄疫也好，或者牛結節疹也好會影響臺灣，我們好不容易已經變成清淨國了。"],["陳委員玉珍：我告訴你，你們給我回答也不只是這樣子，你們還說，因為我們跟中國大陸距離很近，所以你們採取嚴格的防疫措施。"],["胡次長忠一：不是、不是這樣，是因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是貴部給我的回答。"],["胡次長忠一：因為金門縣政府沒有落實打疫苗……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有落實打疫苗？"],["胡次長忠一：如果可以落實牛籍、羊籍的管理……"],["陳委員玉珍：我只是不能理解你們這樣的限制，你剛剛跟我講，因為日本跟臺灣同一個區，金門跟臺灣島又不同區……"],["胡次長忠一：不是，因為我們怕金門的口蹄疫……"],["陳委員玉珍：怕金門的牛肉過來可能會影響，金門的肉會影響到臺灣的，但是不怕日本的過來影響到臺灣？"],["胡次長忠一：臺灣的口蹄疫……"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，好，沒有關係。我想請問你，你們在這個部分是不是對於日本跟金門大小眼？你們跟他們同一區，我們跟你們不同區的這個做法……"],["胡次長忠一：沒有大小眼，是金門縣政府沒有落實，我們會輔導他們，好不好？"],["陳委員玉珍：我當主席時，給每個人都講超過的時間。我希望你提出針對防疫部分有沒有什麼方式能來幫助金門，因為你說我們跟大陸很近，這不是我願意的，地理位置就在那裡，所以除了撲殺、消毒、打疫苗，還要給我們提出一些對策，好嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：對，我們很……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個部分請你們協助喔！"],["胡次長忠一：可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：要多多支持，你不要看到我講日本就開始跳起來。"],["胡次長忠一：不是、不是，我沒有跳起來……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是說他，有人。"],["胡次長忠一：我是實話實說，因為我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：實話實說？"],["胡次長忠一：對，我們要保護臺灣的……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，日本跟臺灣同區，金門跟臺灣不同區，那幫助我們，可以嗎？"],["胡次長忠一：這個是WOAH宣布的，他也是沒有打疫苗的……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你以後跟他掛同一個國旗就好了！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","接下來請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會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5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},{"id":"157242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eabcc92f1562a1e867115c44cfb23388520dab7a15ce7d2e480539f966d37fd65f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"16:13:57 - 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度怎麼樣"},{"start":103.248,"end":122.598,"text":"現在我們所了解因為這部分是要由縣政府提出來有縣長也說他要提出來對,這部分我們會來協助他好,那這個部分因為他涉及到重啟評估的這個費用還蠻高的這個部分是不是交通部你們在前瞻的預算裡面也可以著於補助"},{"start":123.338,"end":149.063,"text":"我跟委員報告因為過去他大平台也好這個大概都有補助過不過我想我們對我們的權益來支持我們會討論一下我希望這個次長你這一部分來協助因為嘉義縣是財政困難的縣市但是他現在有遇到一個契機就是台積電要進駐所以他整個的發展是起飛的包括人口我相信未來也會成長所以在交通方面的需求很大你們陳部長上個禮拜到這個嘉義市參加這個"},{"start":152.844,"end":155.745,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":182.19,"end":198.675,"text":"周市長,你們前瞻裡面衛福部的整個長照計畫執行率不好看你自己應該看到這個數字平均下來大概只有五成為什麼執行率那麼差?特別是像社家署有3900萬的預算其實才花了200多萬"},{"start":202.276,"end":206.939,"text":"主要有一些的工程修繕或者是建設的這部分的話那因為說在這裡面的這裡面的成本不斷的增加所以有時候會流標"},{"start":218.627,"end":220.508,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":241.44,"end":261.367,"text":"就是不夠用那我又看到你們在執行其他的長照的計畫執行率這邊其實又不夠好所以這個部分是不是我請這個次長回去喔你們調整你們裡面的這個預算因為現在長照的需求就是這種實質的交通服務量的需求其實是越來越高的"},{"start":261.727,"end":285.65,"text":"但是顯然你們現在補助給地方政府還有地方政府自己編列的預算執行下來其實是不夠用的就服務的量其實是不足的那這一塊我覺得有改善的空間你們目前編在前瞻這邊的預算通通都是硬體還是有一部分可以拿來譬如說添購車輛這個算不算是你們可以去提供的"},{"start":286.07,"end":301.466,"text":"跟委員報告一下這部分如果有經常人的預算的部分我們來處理那如果沒有的話我們尋求其他的財源來提供民眾這部分的需求好 我要跟你講的是嘉義縣他現在老年人口比例老化的程度是全國第一名了是"},{"start":301.826,"end":329.801,"text":"就是它將近快23%了所以它的確它的那個服務量能需求非常的高但是嘉義縣財政是列在第5級又是一個財政比較困難的一個縣市所以這個部分我希望這個衛福部回去之後你們調整一下就是主動去關心一下嘉義縣他們這個長照看起來這個量能是不夠的交通方面因為它有18個鄉鎮市所以它浮揚非常大那交通的部分我希望在交通車方面這個服務量能"},{"start":331.042,"end":331.602,"text":"委員長王一鳴委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2956,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（16時16分）謝謝主席，請交通部伍次長。"],["主席：伍次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：次長好。次長，我今天要問你關於嘉義縣市鐵路高架化的延伸計畫，目前在前瞻裡面總金額是173.48億，到113年7月底為止，它的分配數是1.55億，執行0.55億，執行率是35.48%，為什麼這個執行率現在只有三成五？"],["伍次長勝園：剛剛講的是我們延伸到民雄段這部分嘛？"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["伍次長勝園：它前面招標有點delay，後面大概我們可以掌握到明年五體標的開工，沒有問題。"],["王委員育敏：因為這整個計畫是2028年要全面完工喔！"],["伍次長勝園：對，是。"],["王委員育敏：目前你這個進度看起來是落後的，2028可以順利完工嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：後面可以，沒問題。"],["王委員育敏：沒有問題？打包票？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，另外一個，我要問的就是除了民雄這一段的高架化之外，通往嘉義市再往下走的水上，水上這一段其實也需要鐵路高架化，但是之前好幾次都被你們交通部打回票。李孟諺部長在8月份有到現場看過，開會的時候他當場允諾要重啟這一個高架化的評估方案，我上次也問過了現在的部長，陳部長也有允諾回去要討論。目前這個案子，你們的進度怎麼樣？"],["伍次長勝園：現在我們所瞭解，因為這部分是要由嘉義縣政府提出……"],["王委員育敏：有，縣長也說他要提出來。"],["伍次長勝園：對，這部分我們會來協助他。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個部分，因為涉及到重啟評估的費用還滿高的，是不是交通部在前瞻的預算裡面也可以酌予補助？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，因為過去大平臺大概都有補助過，不過我想我們全力來支持，回去討論一下，盡量來補助它。"],["王委員育敏：我希望次長就這一部分來協助，因為嘉義縣是財政困難的縣市，但是它現在有遇到一個契機就是台積電要進駐，所以它整個的發展是起飛的，包括人口，我相信未來也會成長，所以在交通方面的需求很大。陳部長上個禮拜到嘉義市參加軍輝橋的通車典禮，它是串聯嘉義縣市很重要的橋梁，他也說未來會重視整個區域的發展，他說這個也是賴總統的政見。你們有接收到這樣的訊息嗎？未來要均衡區域發展，是吧？"],["伍次長勝園：會，我們會全力支持。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝次長，嘉義縣這個部分很需要你們全力來支持。接下來，我請衛福部。"],["主席：周次長。"],["周次長志浩：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：周次長，你們前瞻裡面衛福部整個長照計畫執行率不好看啦！你自己應該看到這個數字……"],["周次長志浩：是的。"],["王委員育敏：平均下來大概只有五成，為什麼執行率那麼差？特別像社家署有3,900萬的預算，其實才花了兩百多萬，執行率只有6%，這麼差的執行率，為什麼？問題出在哪裡？"],["周次長志浩：主要是有一些工程修繕或者建設，因為說實在的，這裡面的成本不斷增加，所以有時候會流標，有時候裡面的經費會不足等等問題。"],["王委員育敏：你們這部分真的要好好改善。另外我要提醒你的是，像嘉義縣這樣的偏鄉地方，他們長照的交通車其實是不夠的。"],["周次長志浩：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以當地的居民說：這個比抽演唱會的門票還要困難；早上8點一開始，30分鐘就秒殺，就是不夠用。我又看到你們在執行其他長照計畫的執行率又不夠好，這個部分我請次長是不是回去調整你們的預算？因為現在長照的需求，也就是這種實質的交通服務量能需求越來越高，但顯然你們現在補助給地方政府，還有地方政府自己編列的預算執行下來是不夠用的，服務量能其實是不足的，這一塊我覺得有改善的空間。你們目前編在前瞻的預算通通都是硬體，還是有一部分可以拿來添購車輛，這個算不算是你們可以提供的？"],["周次長志浩：跟委員報告一下，這部分如果有經常門的預算，我們來處理，如果沒有的話，我們尋求其他的財源來提供民眾這部分的需求。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要跟你講的是，嘉義縣現在老年人口比例、老化的程度是全國第一名。"],["周次長志浩：是。"],["王委員育敏：將近快23%了，所以他們的服務量能需求的確非常的高，但是嘉義縣財政是列在第五級，又是一個財政比較困難的縣市，所以這部分我希望衛福部回去之後調整一下，主動去關心一下嘉義縣，他們的長照量能看起來是不夠的。在交通方面，因為他有18個鄉鎮市，幅員非常大，對於交通，我希望在交通車方面的服務量能提升，我相信衛福部一定有資源，我們全力來協助嘉義縣，改善他們偏鄉長照交通量能不足的問題，好不好？"],["周次長志浩：好，這部分我們會特別關心他們。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員。"],["主席（王委員育敏代）：接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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新竹縣政府一起補助多少現在新竹"},{"start":73.618,"end":100.925,"text":"部長你現在如果沒有數字的時候我想請你這邊的時候能夠具體滿足地方政府的一個要求因為前瞻8800億裡面其實本來有300多億其實在用在新竹市大新竹輕軌可是都沒有用都沒有用那麼我們現在希望有一個好的一個規劃一個部分那如果說需要1000萬、2000萬的部分我想請教一下這個市長這邊是不是可以支持"},{"start":101.805,"end":120.05,"text":"我想這個我們可以就是申請上來然後我們來審議這個問題OK齁感謝齁不要口頭上講說要給個一百萬、兩百萬要打發地方政府我覺得這不應該齁那我想說針對這個部分你剛剛有提到說他們提出來之後你們這邊會盡力來配合應該沒有問題啦齁對應該可以好來謝謝次長齁我想接下來請經濟部一下"},{"start":122.608,"end":143.403,"text":"阿文好我想在水域發展計畫當中前瞻裡面有一個部分是水域發展計畫裡面在講到要如何滿足地方上的一個用水我看到這邊的時候我就說我們看到一個數字說到125年的時候大概每天會有67.59萬噸的一個缺水"},{"start":146.605,"end":173.591,"text":"其中有18.5萬噸是在新竹市缺的部分那我想針對這個部分的時候我們目前有哪些計畫要來解決新竹市的缺水的一個問題跟委員報告這是比較舊的一個資料那目前我們的盤點結果每一個區域我們都是有還有一些供水的一個餘裕量所以這個資料我們在提供給委員那有些新的資料會有一些"},{"start":174.778,"end":175.138,"text":"新竹發展密度高"},{"start":197.677,"end":200.398,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案゚〉"},{"start":216.807,"end":217.227,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":246.828,"end":251.166,"text":"每天?現在有?如果這樣的話就不用做海淡廠啦!"},{"start":252.839,"end":279.185,"text":"還是你把海淡廠也算進去?如果現在每天有10萬噸的餘裕的時候我們還要蓋海淡廠幹什麼?那新竹未來持續會發展啊所以你說現在我們每天就有餘裕10萬噸的水你把資料給我因為如果這樣的話我們新竹市海淡廠不用蓋因為現在海淡廠在蓋的時候坦白說地方也有很多不同的雜音因為跟地方的溝通其實不是很成熟所以也有很多地方的人士在反彈"},{"start":280.825,"end":309.648,"text":"針對這個部分的時候我們水利署這邊有沒有具體的做法第一個我們針對於海放的部分包括取水的部分我們會確實依照環評的要求除此之外對於沿線的管路的這個開挖的部分我們跟市政府已經做好合作那至於說對於漁民的這個部分對於海域的這個保育我們也跟漁民做相對的溝通所以我們在海淡廠的這個工程的計畫包括"},{"start":310.188,"end":310.808,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":331.241,"end":332.483,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案"},{"start":348.867,"end":366.444,"text":"這因為有些縣市主要是由縣市提報出來那對於說如果提報比較低的時候我們當然是了解這種情形我們也會再去跟他們了解一下那針對這部分新竹只有兩家請問是不是還有其他家有在申請目前在申請是不是還可以爭取後續的部分"},{"start":367.845,"end":368.105,"text":"王一鳴委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2920,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（16時9分）謝謝主席，我想請一下交通部、經濟部及衛福部。"],["主席：請交通部伍次長、經濟部何次長、衛福部周次長。"],["鄭委員正鈐：首先，我想先請教一下交通部，我們前瞻5期這個部分，因為前面前瞻1、前瞻2、前瞻3、前瞻4，其實裡面都有一個跟新竹市有關的就是輕軌計畫。輕軌計畫坦白來說，其實這麼多年都還沒有往前走，目前最新的狀態就是新竹市已經跟新竹縣整合好，然後也跟園區管理局簽了MOU。我們現在決定要由新竹市來做大新竹輕軌的整合可行性研究報告，而所需的經費，我想請問一下部長，這個部分可不可以給新竹市政府多一點的預算，重新針對大新竹輕軌規劃？"],["伍次長勝園：現在這部分，我們其實是已經有補助，現在是由新竹市政府跟新竹縣政府一起，由它代表……"],["鄭委員正鈐：補助多少？次長，你現在如果沒有數字，我想請你能夠具體滿足地方政府的要求。"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為前瞻8,800億裡面，其實本來有三百多億是要用在大新竹輕軌，可是都沒有用，我們現在希望有一個好的規劃，如果需要1,000萬、2,000萬，我想請教次長是不是可以支持？"],["伍次長勝園：我想這個我們可以支持，它申請上來然後我們來審議。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，感謝，不要口頭上講要，結果給個100萬、200萬打發地方政府，我覺得這不應該。針對這個部分，你剛才有提到說他們提出來之後，你們會盡力來配合，應該沒有問題啦？"],["伍次長勝園：應該可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝次長。我接下來請經濟部。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長好。在水與發展計畫當中，前瞻裡面有一個部分是水與發展計畫，講到要如何滿足地方上的用水，我們看到一個數字說到125年大概每天會有67.59萬噸的缺水，其中有18.5萬噸是新竹市缺的部分。針對這個部分，我們目前有哪些計畫要來解決新竹市缺水的問題？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，這是比較舊的資料，目前我們盤點結果，每一個區域都還有供水的餘裕量，所以這個資料我們再提供給委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。新的資料會有一些空餘出來的量能夠提供給新竹。針對工業用水的部分，是用土地面積可容納的產業數量來推估工業用水，而新竹因為發展的密度很高，所以目前已經在進行立體方式的發展方案，包括竹科X計畫等等，都把園區已經用立體的方式在發展，所以它用水量可能也會不同。針對這個部分，工業用水是不是要重新去評估？"],["何次長晉滄：好，我請賴署長。"],["賴署長建信：跟委員說明，除了對於單位面積的用水量之外，我們對於各個行業別，即便說是半導體的產業，我們都有各個行業別單位面積供水的評估，當然也有先進製程的評估。事實上，現階段新竹餘裕的水量，供給就是遠遠大於需求超過10萬噸左右，那我們現在……"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在有餘裕10萬噸？每天？"],["賴署長建信：現在有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在我們的供水……如果這樣的話，就不用做海淡廠啦！還是你把海淡廠也算進去？"],["賴署長建信：不是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果現在每天有10萬噸餘裕的話，我們還要蓋海淡廠幹什麼？"],["賴署長建信：新竹未來持續會發展啊！"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你說現在我們每天就有餘裕10萬噸的水，你把資料給我。如果這樣的話，新竹市就不用蓋海淡廠，因為現在要蓋海淡廠，坦白說地方也有很多不同的雜音。因為跟地方的溝通，其實不是很成熟，所以也有很多地方的人士在反彈。針對這個部分，水利署有沒有具體的作法？"],["賴署長建信：第一個，我們針對海放，包括取水的部分，我們會確實依照環評的要求，除此之外；對於沿線管路開挖的部分，我們跟市政府已經做好合作；至於漁民的部分，對於海域的保育，我們也跟漁民做相對的溝通，所以我們在海淡廠工程的計畫，包括我們在陸域的石門跟新竹的聯通管，這些計畫都是超前的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。因為民眾來找我陳情的時候，我到時候還是要找你們，我們希望能夠跟民眾做更好的溝通跟互動，解除民眾的擔憂跟疑慮，好不好？"],["賴署長建信：好，謝謝委員幫忙。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，最後，我問一下衛福部，針對社區公托的部分，分配不太公平，目前大概有好幾個縣市完全是零？"],["周次長志浩：因為主要是由縣市提報出來，如果提報比較低的時候，我們大概對於這種情形也會再去跟他們瞭解一下，詢問他們是不是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這部分，新竹只有兩家，請問是不是還有其他家在申請？目前申請是不是還可以爭取後續的部分？"],["周次長志浩：還有在申請的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我們持續關心。因為新竹市平均起來，其實也是不太足夠的狀態，我們希望衛福部可以給更多的支持。"],["周次長志浩：好，我們會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接著請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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（"},{"start":110.938,"end":129.556,"text":"這個民間的就不比啦,我們比其他的,核庫第一、金控、華南等等他每個月都相對有提撥啊,來鼓勵員工來認股所以署長,你是不是要說明一下"},{"start":131.311,"end":150.895,"text":"我們在省那麼大的錢啊結果最基本最基本主席長你也應該了解一下這全部都是同工不同酬造成好的人才留不住為什麼伙食會一個月才750塊說明一下吧"},{"start":155.673,"end":174.187,"text":"跟委員報告因為台銀、土銀跟輸出銀行是百分之百的國營銀行那另外您剛剛提到合庫、兆豐它是民營的公股銀行所以兩大類的這銀行的那個本質是不太一樣"},{"start":174.747,"end":185.736,"text":"那因為國營事業它是屬於單一興奉制所以它的一些相關的那些剛剛說的那個餐飲那個"},{"start":193.069,"end":215.944,"text":"因為我們本來就沒有這樣特別編活實費所以它依照人事法規它就是沒辦法跟比照那個合庫或者交通這種銀行這個是存在相當不合理的問題而且換另外一個角度來看你們根本就是來欺負這些善良的員工嘛你們根本就在霸凌他們嘛"},{"start":217.126,"end":239.609,"text":"請問你,一個月的伙食差750塊,你現在吃個便當要多少錢?不好意思,因為他就是單一興奉,所以這伙食費700塊也不是說真的就是補助他的不是說要補足他的伙食費,那伙食費的部分其實就是都含在薪資裡面的"},{"start":240.236,"end":257.02,"text":"那這個部分的話,我們未來再跟人事、行政院人事、行政總署再溝通一下。你們好好檢討一下,你看今天這個都是4千多億,那些員工心裡是作何感想?臺營多少的員工?土營多少員工?加一加上萬人耶。"},{"start":265.981,"end":271.325,"text":"我們地方啊,到現在目前為止,還有多少地方沒有自來水可以喝?你知道嗎?"},{"start":294.163,"end":319.98,"text":"本席來自新店深坑石碇坪林屋來跟委員報告全國的自來水普及率大概95%我們希望每年透過這個前瞻預算我們希望每年能夠增加那你這次有沒有增加?這次有沒有增加?有,我們希望這次的預算能夠也投入到一些屋自來水來,請賴署長好不好"},{"start":323.198,"end":342.327,"text":"跟委員說明,除了簽簽之外,行政院剛剛在這個禮拜就核定了自來水改善的5期的計畫,大概有106億元左右。好,那別的地方我不管,清電深坑、石碇、坪林、烏來,我們這一區你編入了多少,可以解決多少沒有自來水喝的問題?"},{"start":343.027,"end":358.738,"text":"我們全期希望全國改善6萬戶但是因為他是一個評比機制那這一次跟過往的計畫不一樣是因為我們隨著我們改善的戶數越來越高本來每一戶的成本只要超過60萬就不可能核定但現在的話超過60萬到80萬裡面我們都可以來解決"},{"start":363.021,"end":380.389,"text":"用水是基本的民生問題啊你如果說比較偏遠的地區那你還有你的說法問題新店離台北101不到20分鐘你說離市區那麼近的地方沒有自來水可以喝這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":382.077,"end":407.74,"text":"委員你知道有一些案子我們希望跟社區來溝通因為譬如說檀美里那個地方它需要五個加二站那中間的加二站社區都同意了最下面的社區不同意這個我們需要跟市政府一起來努力當然委員也一直知道我們很多多多來努力你做不到的地方你趕快跟我們說你唯一要做的就是趕快出錢"},{"start":409.096,"end":430.785,"text":"其他地方的溝通事項,我們來努力。前瞻前瞻,希望這些很辛苦可憐的人可以真的被瞻到,而不是遙望不可及的美夢。讓美夢成真,行不行?今年要做了。"},{"start":434.767,"end":435.127,"text":"請正正前委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2890,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（16時1分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可不可以請經濟部、主計總處及財政部國庫署？"],["主席：請何次長、陳主計長及陳署長。"],["羅委員明才：首先，我們看到洋洋灑灑，大概四千多億、四千多億，有八千多億的經費，究竟它的成果展現在哪裡？民眾大概一般都感覺不出來。第一個，我先講的是，有那麼多的經費，可是最基本、最基本的一些同工同酬津貼的問題，先請財政部回答一下，我們看到國營所有的公股銀行裡面，發現有很大的同工不同酬情況，我請問，為什麼一樣是午餐費、伙食費，有的才750塊，有的是3,000塊；包括生育補助，有的每胎補助才6,000塊，像一般的民間銀行，光是一胎可能就是……像合庫是15萬；獎金的部分也通通都不一樣，員工福利信託的部分，臺銀、土銀、輸出入銀行通通都沒有。民間的就不比，我們比其他的，合庫、第一金控、華南等等，每個月都相對有提撥來鼓勵員工認股。署長是不是來說明一下？我們在審那麼大的錢，結果最基本、最基本……主計長，你也應該了解一下，這全部都是同工不同酬，造成好的人才留不住，為什麼伙食費一個月才750塊？說明一下。"],["陳署長柏誠：跟委員報告，因為臺銀、土銀及輸出入銀行是百分之百的國營銀行，另外您剛剛提到合庫、兆豐民營的公股銀行，所以兩大類銀行的本質是不太一樣。因為國營事業是屬於單一薪俸制，所以一些相關如剛剛說的伙食費，由於我們本來就沒有特別編伙食費，因此依照人事法規，它就是沒辦法比照合庫或者兆豐這種銀行。"],["羅委員明才：署長，這個是存在相當不合理的問題，而且換另外一個角度來看，你們根本就是欺負這些善良的員工嘛！你們根本就在霸凌他們嘛！請問你，一個月的伙食費才750塊，你現在吃一個便當要多少錢？"],["陳署長柏誠：不好意思，因為他們就是單一薪俸，所以伙食費700塊也不是說真的要補足他的伙食費，伙食費其實都含在薪資裡面，這個部分我們未來再跟行政院人事行政總處溝通。"],["羅委員明才：你們好好檢討一下，你看今天這個都是四千多億，那些員工心裡是作何感想？臺銀多少的員工、土銀多少的員工？加一加是上萬人耶！6,000、8,000，加上5,000，這個影響非常地大，你們應該好好來合理性的調整，好不好？"],["陳署長柏誠：好，我們來認真檢討一下。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。另外一個就是經濟部……"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：麻煩一下，到目前為止還有多少地方沒有自來水可以喝？你知道嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是……"],["羅委員明才：本席來自新店、深坑、石碇、坪林、烏來……"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，全國的自來水普及率現在大概是95%，我們希望每年透過前瞻預算能夠增加自來水的普及率。"],["羅委員明才：你這次有沒有增加？"],["何次長晉滄：有，我們希望這一次的預算能夠也投入到一些無自來水……"],["羅委員明才：請賴署長，好不好？"],["賴署長建信：跟委員說明，除了前瞻之外，行政院在這個禮拜就核定了自來水改善的五期計畫，大概有106億元左右。"],["羅委員明才：別的地方我不管，新店、深坑、石碇、坪林、烏來，我們這一區你編列了多少？可以解決多少沒有自來水喝的問題？"],["賴署長建信：我們全期希望全國改善6萬戶，但是因為它是一個評比機制，這一次跟過往的計畫不一樣，因為隨著改善的戶數越來越高，本來每戶的成本只要超過60萬就不可能核定，但現在超過60萬到80萬都可以來解決。"],["羅委員明才：用水是最基本的民生問題，如果是比較偏遠的地區，你還有你的說法，問題新店離臺北101不到20分鐘，離市區那麼近的地方沒有自來水可以喝，這樣合理嗎？"],["賴署長建信：委員，你知道有一些案子我們希望跟社區來溝通，比如美潭里那個地方需要5個加壓站，中間的加壓站社區都同意了，而最下面的社區不同意，這個我們需要跟市政府一起來努力，當然委員也一直指導我們很多……"],["羅委員明才：多多來努力，你做不到的地方，你趕快跟我們說，你唯一要做的就是趕快出錢，其他地方的溝通事項我們來努力嘛！好不好？"],["賴署長建信：好，謝謝委員的協助。"],["羅委員明才：前瞻、錢沾，希望這些很辛苦的可憐人可以真的被沾到，而不是遙望不可及的美夢，好不好？讓美夢成真，行不行？"],["賴署長建信：這個我們過去一直在做，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：今年要做啦！把它做好就好了，好不好？不然我每隔半年、一年就遇到你一次，同樣的故事一直不斷地上演，為什麼不一次編足30億？本區自來水的問題就解決了，好不好？請多多努力啊！"],["賴署長建信：好，我們持續努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員。","接著請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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謝謝剩下一點點時間喔"},{"start":249.478,"end":266.473,"text":"委員好,要改善少子語化,托育政策很重要。我們過去數年來教育部那邊做2到6歲的托育中心,0到2歲的托育中心是你們。我必須要說0到2歲公共的托育中心以台中市來講是嚴重不足。"},{"start":274.56,"end":299.739,"text":"台中市現在全國第二大城市超過280萬人口我們現在目前只有45處那我們年輕的家庭不斷的移入年輕的人口不斷的增加所以我們需要更多的平價優質的托嬰中心所以這個部分衛生福利部是不是可以協助是的 因為今年的話台中市也有提出申請那我們現在在加速處理當中台中市提出申請幾數"},{"start":303.166,"end":304.547,"text":"教育部有處理得很好嗎?我們台中也還不夠啊,所以教育部現在有聽到是不是可以幫幫忙啊?"},{"start":327.985,"end":350.592,"text":"除了一到二歲的托孕中心嚴重的不足之外,二到三歲的專班在轉型當中,很多年輕家庭媽媽不知道該怎麼辦,爸爸不知道該怎麼辦,那如果這個專班不夠的話,量能不足的話,還是會影響到年輕家庭托孕的問題,好不好?會。"},{"start":351.492,"end":362.887,"text":"這個我希望衛生福利部跟教育部一起一定要積極地跨部會來合作、來解決、來協助。好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝何新淳委員。接著我們請羅明才委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2854,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（15時55分）謝謝主席，我們先請內政部。"],["主席：董次長？"],["何委員欣純：對，劉世芳部長被留在內政委員會了。"],["主席：還沒有開始開會？"],["何委員欣純：還沒開始啊！"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：我們今天要審前瞻第5期的特別預算案，我大概從這個預算書裡面整理了一下，在這個配置裡面，城鄉建設是最多的，兩百二十二億多。"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["何委員欣純：我想請教一下，其中我最重視城鄉建設，就是它對於我們地方建設的影響確實非常大，尤其我在地方上有聽到好多聲音，包括針對很多社區活動中心的耐震補強，或者是社區活動中心的重建，地方政府如果財源不夠，或者是需要中央支持，我們都是全力、大力的願意給予支持，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["何委員欣純：好，如果地方政府沒有提案來爭取的話，其實像中央民意代表都會結合地方的民意代表一起來爭取，也期待地方政府能夠提出計畫，由中央來補助。我現在手頭上的一個頭汴、聖和活動中心拖了兩年沒蓋，地方紛紛擾擾，地方政府一直說是因為我們的預算還沒有過。董次，我有請內政部的同仁去現場會勘過，我們也說得非常清楚，前瞻特別預算在這個會期，如果所有政黨都能夠支持且趕快的排審、趕快的審查讓它三讀通過，我想我們一定會幫忙協助地方政府，只要有提案，不管是社區活動中心的耐震補強或者是重建，我們一定都是大力的支持，對不對？董次。"],["董次長建宏：對，跟委員報告，首先這些活動中心等等，地方政府必須要優先解決其相關土地的用地問題，我們必須在合法的基礎上面去處理，所以地方政府應該負起相關的責任。第二個，我們會滾動式的檢討，相關的案子只要地方提出來，我們就會積極的協助，所以只要不分朝野大家大力支持，我們絕對會協助。"],["何委員欣純：我再拜託一下，除了地方政府該處理的一些用地或者是一些沒有取得建照、使照的部分，我還是認為中央對於沒有建照、使照的這種，有歷史因故緣由的老舊社區活動中心，我們還是應該要想辦法，看用什麼樣的機制來協助地方一一地盤點、一一地來整建。我必須要跟各位說，社區的活動中心不只是活動中心，它可能是社區的政治中心，是人民參與民主決策的活動中心，它也可能是長照的據點，它也可能是社區關懷據點，也可能是老人家在那裡做一些老人活動、才藝活動等等，它的用途非常廣，它是一個社區的中心。因為社區活動中心有這麼多元性的功能，我還是期待，希望中央跟地方能夠一起把它解決。第一個，不管有沒有使照、建照，這些有歷史故事的老舊活動中心，我們如何能夠解套？第二個，只要地方有提案，我們儘速審查、儘速地來補助預算，去耐震補強也好，或是重建也好，我要拜託內政部承諾，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：會，中央會跟地方一起合作，我們也會跟中央其他部會一起滾動檢討，協助取得合法的身分並給予補助。"],["何委員欣純：我希望滾動式檢討，而且預算能夠增多。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝董次。接下來是關於少子化的部分，我要請教衛生福利部，剩下一點點時間。"],["周次長志浩：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：你好。要改善少子女化，托育政策很重要，過去數年來，教育部做了2到6歲的托育中心，0到2歲的托嬰中心是你們嘛，對不對？"],["周次長志浩：是，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：我必須要說，0到2歲的公共托嬰中心，以臺中市來講是嚴重不足，臺中市現在是全國第二大城市，超過280萬人口，我們目前只有45處，年輕的家庭不斷地移入、年輕的人口不斷地增加，所以需要更多平價優質的托嬰中心，因此這個部分衛生福利部是不是可以協助？"],["周次長志浩：是的，因為今年臺中市也有提出申請，我們現在在加速處理當中。"],["何委員欣純：臺中市提出申請有幾處？你會後把資料給我。"],["周次長志浩：我們會後提供。"],["何委員欣純：儘速來審議、儘速來核定補助，好不好？"],["周次長志浩：好。"],["何委員欣純：我再請教一下，除了0到2歲的托嬰中心，現在年輕家庭碰到的是什麼？2到3歲的專班，這個跟教育部有關係，還是衛生福利部？"],["周次長志浩：這事教育部有處理得很好。"],["何委員欣純：有處理得很好嗎？臺中還不夠啊！所以教育部現在有聽到是不是可以幫幫忙？除了0到2歲的托嬰中心嚴重不足之外，2到3歲的專班在轉銜當中有很多年輕家庭的媽媽不知道該怎麼辦、爸爸不知道該怎麼辦，如果這個專班不夠的話、量能不足的話，還是會影響到年輕家庭的托育問題，好不好？"],["周次長志浩：會，這部分……"],["何委員欣純：這個我希望衛生福利部跟教育部一定要一起積極地跨部會來合作、來解決、來協助，好不好？"],["周次長志浩：好的，我們會。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["周次長志浩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","接著請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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裡面可能他還沒有辦法去設計出來不過跟委員說明的是現在行政院國安會已經審議過了"},{"start":147.284,"end":161.229,"text":"因應氣候變遷的後前瞻的協助地方政府的改善的計畫未來我們再來跟基隆市政府再來討論那這些工作完成了之後會大幅的提升大幅的延案包括寄進公路包括麥當勞那個地方的淹水問題"},{"start":163.41,"end":190.397,"text":"好,非常感謝,因為這個棒球運動場跟智鴻園區的部分也是非常重要要收尾的地方那第二部分就是有關於這個嘉義的鄉親針對於嘉義大林的鹿絕溝當然叫做鹿骨溝那是一個非常良好的一個水環境工程的一個部分那很期待在利用這一次的這個過程當中能不能夠也把這個水環境的改善"},{"start":191.417,"end":192.518,"text":"請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":207.289,"end":232.811,"text":"這個部分的工作我們會跟嘉義縣政府一起來努力事實上我們也希望說嘉義縣政府有一個所謂空間發展藍圖的這個規劃那我們未來的前瞻的5期預算若是城門大院通過的話它可能還有11億左右的這個經費我們希望說透過一定的評比、客觀的評比那看看它能不能擠得上、擠不上好 謝謝署長的說明請回座"},{"start":234.312,"end":238.795,"text":"再過來這一部分要麻煩交通部航港局的葉協榮 葉局長來 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對不對那我想請教你你現在這位公務員 認真的公務員他往生了這可惡的謝宜龍跑了躲起來了他還是得送考機會譯出送考機會他辭職到出國陪小孩"},{"start":179.406,"end":198.219,"text":"禮拜五說你要找他來,他會來嗎?我已經直接給他停止了對啊,你剛剛說禮拜五你要找他來啊你說他會來嗎?他不會理你啦他會來嗎?請問你他還是得送考機會送考機會他會來今天出來面對社會大眾嗎?你除了記者會他都不願意面對了剛剛牛許晴委員講這個情形就構成聽證調查我告訴你"},{"start":208.069,"end":224.643,"text":"你不用尊重立法院這麼大的事情這可惡的謝宜龍就應該把他叫來國會把所有事情問清楚、問明白今天做得到嗎?部長今天做得到嗎?請問不要講你叫他來他不會理你國會叫他來會不會理?會不會理?你跟我講會不會理嗎?"},{"start":244.85,"end":272.712,"text":"委員我們會盡全力來處理他不會理啦因為大法官做他的靠山啦大法官說不用理立法院啦全世界都有聽證調查大法官把他沒收了國防部長當時洪仲秋下台了你現在還是在這個地方你還是在這個地方你剛說過了你可以離開我知道但我就看你怎麼離開"},{"start":274.346,"end":283.588,"text":"我先告訴你喔這件事情我必須客觀的講你有責任沒錯吧我有責任阿對當然責任全部全在你也有別人有責任那有責任的跑了叫許明春他重用這個人綠帳狗市阿狗帳綠市阿今天他為什麼可以這麼囂張"},{"start":301.032,"end":304.895,"text":"你竟然在這邊要代替他接受社會大眾的責難他比你還大我告訴你"},{"start":327.038,"end":329.019,"text":"第三個我就要說"},{"start":355.209,"end":381.336,"text":"紅仲秋案馬總統親自出來道歉親自到往生者靈堂上香求賴總統到現在說一句話沒委員這我自己承擔吶我告訴你你也承擔不了賴清德總統我不是怪你因為這你不能決定但你至少告訴賴清德總統人民有多憤怒到現在為止他一句話都沒說這是我犯的錯什麼叫你犯的錯"},{"start":383.235,"end":392.1,"text":"責任是一個垂直體系那我馬總統也可以講那是國防部犯的錯阿我自己承擔阿馬總統也可以講國防部犯的錯不關我的事阿你們幹嘛找我叫國防部長出來說這是我的錯我承擔就好阿到現在為止賴清德總統是沒有一句話說欸這樣對嗎這樣可以嗎"},{"start":408.41,"end":429.874,"text":"再來我要告訴部長為什麼你有責任我剛剛講許明川今天用了這個人重用這個人靠著他的事今天囂張跋扈出事不負責任躲起來可是我跟你講今天我跟部長講我今天看你的報告我真的看到快吐血啦你什麼噁心瀝血的報告是讓人吐血的報告啦今天謝宜龍可以這麼囂張"},{"start":435.185,"end":462.473,"text":"你們今天勞動部這份報告就是一面照妖精就是他的幫兇你知道嗎你知道什麼叫草菅人命這個報告叫草菅人命你知道什麼叫官官相護這個報告就是官官相護然後我要跟你講你裡面竟然給大家說謝芬署長的管理方式不是同仁親生直接原因你憑什麼做這個結論啊"},{"start":464.991,"end":467.272,"text":"請問部長你憑什麼做這個結論當然你後來改啊改口啦你說要開始記他兩大過啊停職啊你說這裡就有霸凌當然我前面也講過啦你的霸凌裡面也是一個非常奇怪的霸凌你說有霸凌但是不是發生在往生者身上他沒有對往生者霸凌他對其他人霸凌"},{"start":488.869,"end":498.477,"text":"我跟你講今天正因為你的報告還說他目的良善捏你還說得出這個謝宜龍目的良善今天謝宜龍當然這麼囂張啊你今天如果今天勞動部你都在幫他背書的時候你告訴我"},{"start":507.708,"end":521.457,"text":"他能不囂張嗎?我們能不今天疑惑到底謝宜龍何許人的背後靠山到底多大還要勞駕你打電話給民進黨黨部透過民進黨黨部去關心民進黨的議員他怎麼那麼厲害啊還勞駕你在這邊一個人來承受今天大家的一個質詢他自己躲起來"},{"start":533.783,"end":554.07,"text":"我真的沒看過這麼大的官比你還大最後我要說我真的誠懇的奉勸今天所以部長你今天你說過你會以符合社會期待的方式來負起責任我看著你怎麼以符合社會期待的方式來負起責任第二個你身為勞動部部長你要去讓賴清德總統知道你要讓卓榮泰院長知道"},{"start":562.621,"end":577.465,"text":"這件事是讓整個勞動部捍衛勞工權益免受霸凌的信任全部崩盤還能躲著不講話真的是不應該請賴總統出來今天對全國勞工人說聲對不起吧謝謝你"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2196,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（15時45分）有請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我先唸一段文章，您聽一下：你是位認真的公務員，早上6點就上班，下午4點可以下班，但你時常先打卡，打下班卡，然後再繼續工作。你下午被長官退件，還被長官大罵，要求11月4號星期一務必交件，11月3號星期日晚上家人來辦公室找你，被保全阻擋，無法進辦公室，無法即時找到你。11月4號星期一，你把你的性命也一併交了出來。這個文章你看過吧？"],["何部長佩珊：有。"],["羅委員智強：我們一位認真的公務員，最後在勞動部的霸凌之下，他交出了工作，同時也交出了他的生命。部長，我看到你在備詢時落淚，但我跟你講，你真的也該落淚，勞動部的員工今天走上這麼悲慘的絕路，這麼認真的員工，辛辛苦苦努力的員工，不是他而已，今天多少北分署的員工被這位長官霸凌、壓迫，而我們這位員工走上了絕路，你當然該感到難過，可是更該難過的是他的家屬，更該難過的是我們所有的公務員，更該難過、也該生氣的是，今天勞動部是管勞工權益的單位，你們的單位竟然發生霸凌員工致死的案件，你叫全國的勞工怎麼看這件事情？這已經是全民之怒，你知道吧？您知道吧？您知道？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["羅委員智強：那我告訴你，剛剛前面很多委員拿起洪仲丘事件來比喻，你知道洪仲丘事件發生之後，直屬長官被法辦，對不對？國防部長下臺，對不對？馬英九總統出面道歉，還到往生者的靈堂上香，對不對？那我想請教你，現在這位公務員，認真的公務員，他往生了，這可惡的謝宜容跑了，躲起來了！"],["何部長佩珊：他還是得送考績會議處。"],["羅委員智強：送考績會？他辭職出國陪小孩！你說禮拜五要找他來，他會來嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我已經直接給他停職了。"],["羅委員智強：你剛剛說禮拜五你要找他來啊！他會來嗎？他不會理你啦！他會來嗎？請問你。"],["何部長佩珊：他還是得送考績會。"],["羅委員智強：送考績會，他今天會出來面對社會大眾嗎？昨天記者會他都不願意面對了。剛剛牛煦庭委員講，這個情形就構成聽證調查，我告訴你，你不用尊重立法院，這麼大的事情，這可惡的謝宜容就應該把他叫來國會，把所有事情問清楚，問明白，今天做得到嗎？部長，今天做得到嗎？不要講你叫他來，他不會理你，國會叫他來，會不會理？會不會理？你跟我講會不會理嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們會盡全力來處理。"],["羅委員智強：他不會理啦！因為大法官做他的靠山啦！大法官說不用理立法院啦！全世界都有聽證調查，大法官把它沒收了。國防部長當時因為洪仲丘事件下臺了，你現在還是在這個地方，你還是站在這個地方。你剛剛說過了，你可以離開。"],["何部長佩珊：我可以離開。"],["羅委員智強：我知道，但我就看你怎麼離開，我先告訴你，這件事情我必須客觀地講，你有責任，沒錯吧？"],["何部長佩珊：我有責任。"],["羅委員智強：對，當然責任不全在你，別人也有責任，但有責任的人跑了，叫許銘春，他重用這個人，「狗仗綠勢」啊！今天他為什麼可以這麼囂張，霸凌整個北分署，搞到81個人離職、搞到有人輕生，一餐飯吃4萬元，調用所有的科目，去買禮品做他的公關，他憑什麼這麼囂張？然後出了事，今天部長你可憐，你竟然在這邊要代替他接受社會大眾的責難，他比你還大，我告訴你，他比你還大，仗的是誰的勢？仗的是許銘春的勢，仗的就是陳菊愛將──許銘春的勢。你以為只有這個單位這樣？過去我接到太多公務員告訴我，民進黨上來，愛將文化、仗著背後靠山大的狀況比比皆是，而部長你現在還在這個地方。","第三個，我就要說洪仲丘案，馬總統親自出來道歉，親自到往生者靈堂上香，請問賴總統到現在說一句話了沒？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這我自己承擔，因為是我犯的錯。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你也承擔不了賴清德總統，我不是怪你，這你不能決定，但你至少告訴賴清德總統，人民有多憤怒，到現在為止他一句話都沒說。"],["何部長佩珊：這是我犯的錯。"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫你犯的錯？責任是一個垂直體系，那馬總統也可以講那是國防部犯的錯啊！"],["何部長佩珊：我自己承擔。"],["羅委員智強：馬總統也可以說是國防部的錯，不關我的事啊！你們幹嘛找我？叫國防部長出來說這是他的錯，他承擔就好啊！到現在為止，賴清德總統沒有說一句話耶！這樣對嗎？這樣可以嗎？再來，我要告訴部長，為什麼你有責任？我剛剛講許銘春今天用了這個人、重用這個人，這個人靠著他的勢，今天囂張跋扈，出事不負責任躲起來！可是我跟部長講，我今天看你的報告，真的看到快吐血了，什麼嘔心瀝血的報告，是讓人吐血的報告！今天謝宜容可以這麼囂張，你們勞動部這份報告就是一面照妖鏡，就是他的幫兇，你知道嗎？你知道嗎？你知道什麼叫草菅人命？這個報告就叫草菅人命！你知道什麼叫官官相護？這個報告就是官官相護！然後我跟你講，你裡面竟然可以跟告訴大家說，謝分署長的管理方式不是同仁輕生的直接原因，你憑什麼做這個結論？請問部長，你憑什麼做這個結論？當然你後來改口了，你說要記他兩大過、停職，你說這個已經有霸凌。當然我前面也講過了，你說的霸凌也是非常奇怪的霸凌，你說有霸凌，但不是發生在往生者身上，他沒有對往生者霸凌，他對其他人霸凌。你的報告還說他目的良善！你還說得出這個謝宜容目的良善，今天謝宜容當然這麼囂張啊！如果今天勞動部都在幫他背書的時候，你告訴我，他能不囂張嗎？我們能不疑惑到底謝宜容何許人？他背後靠山到底多大？還要勞駕你打電話給民進黨黨部，透過民進黨黨部去關心民進黨的議員，他怎麼那麼厲害啊！還勞駕你在這邊一個人來承受今天大家的質詢，他自己躲起來，我真的沒看過這麼大的官耶！比你還大。","最後我要說，我真的誠懇地奉勸，部長今天說過你會以符合社會期待的方式來負起責任，我看著你怎麼以符合社會期待的方式負起責任。第二個，你身為勞動部部長，你要讓賴清德總統知道，你要讓卓榮泰院長知道，這件事是讓整個勞動部捍衛勞工權益、免受霸凌的信任全部崩盤！還能躲著不講話，真的是不應該，請賴總統出來對全國勞工說一聲對不起吧！謝謝你。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員，謝謝部長。","接續請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["113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較緊所以我就先請幾位部長先上來然後文化部的李部長教育部陳部長跟觀光署的周署長"},{"start":29.912,"end":33.917,"text":"經濟部是有跟文化部相關的議題,之後我再來繼續做一些處理"},{"start":45.461,"end":64.477,"text":"教育部正部長您好在前瞻計畫第5期特別預算有關於數位學習的計畫這是跟延續第3期、第4期在數位建設有22億5000萬元但我目前掌握的數據不曉得您了解這個部分的執行率有多少嗎?"},{"start":65.577,"end":93.705,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上這一個前瞻預算的第4期裡邊已經達到超過90%那之所以原來的第三季會有一些稍微落後是因為它這個花包因為比較專業這一個全國的這個學術網路它比較專業複雜度高所以它流標了所以到第二標才標出去但是現在整個進度已經上來到目前已經超過九成了"},{"start":94.424,"end":107.405,"text":"好的,那我想你也知道學術網路這個問題所以我這邊的數據大概只有31.63跟14.38那所以你們現在大概是在在這個數據以外大概還有多少的進程?"},{"start":115.965,"end":130.782,"text":"台灣學術網路的服務優化計畫在10月的達成率已經到95.97然後有一個是高級中等學校的智慧網路環境暨學術網路提升計畫10月的話已經到96.64跟委員報告"},{"start":133.505,"end":151.051,"text":"好,所以你們後來有追上了所以我這邊就做一個提醒因為部長您也知道本席非常關注偏鄉教育資源的問題所以在你們這一期的預算在偏鄉這個部分本席這邊也請您多加注意然後持續追蹤,好嗎?"},{"start":152.54,"end":152.6,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":172.321,"end":177.822,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":201.616,"end":219.125,"text":"有的地方真的是還做得不好,我們還要去協助他啦。好,那你也知道問題齁,所以本席這邊提醒你,是不是在我們原住民的這個商品其實有很多很棒的,但是這個通路平台如果沒有有效的運用,那對我們的整個部落的這個產品也感覺到很可惜。"},{"start":219.545,"end":219.685,"text":"主席"},{"start":238.994,"end":255.411,"text":"主語教室有很多學校、校長室、餐廳、主語教室有掌握教育資源的不足,是不是可以多做一些改進,在這個計畫下跟教育部一起推動?"},{"start":256.121,"end":256.361,"text":"主席"},{"start":272.569,"end":272.689,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":295.214,"end":295.934,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":315.513,"end":316.833,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":333.558,"end":334.319,"text":"所以這個部分我要請部長多加看管"},{"start":350.799,"end":362.044,"text":"我們不希望很多地方的建設因此而被卡住接下來我問一個請問一下嘉義園村園區你們W棟的無償撥用請問是什麼樣一個狀況就是嘉義市政府都已經將相關的經費都已經編了可是為什麼你們不撥用給他們"},{"start":373.826,"end":373.966,"text":"主席"},{"start":394.762,"end":409.178,"text":"請那個部長多加注意因為嘉義市這邊已經有很大的聲音就是說這個原創園區他們其實周邊的這個設施都做得、準備得很齊全可是你們這樣子的狀況讓他們都一直陷於一個不知的情況所以請部長"},{"start":411.84,"end":436.13,"text":"這部分的進度要盯緊。接下來其實跟嘉義市也有一點關係,就是不好意思,我們那個交通部,應該是部長,就是跟你們軌道建設有關,可是我想請教一下,那個交通部,你們在第5期的這個編列,這個軌道從高架化的延伸到民雄,那民雄,請問為什麼沒有到嘉義市?"},{"start":437.57,"end":465.604,"text":"這個不是以前在前瞻計畫裡面你們一開始是延伸到嘉義市嗎?為什麼現在在第5期都已經到了最後的機會你們沒有到嘉義市?沒有,嘉義市我們在用公務預算來下去編列你確定有嗎?確定那這個部分是不是可以請你們來跟本席做一個更細部的一個報告?可以,是好,謝謝,那謝謝交通部謝謝林千祺委員接著請林黛華委員林黛華,林黛華,林黛華不在王振旭委員"},{"start":470.674,"end":471.638,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2781,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（15時41分）謝謝主席。立院同仁跟所有行政院相關的夥伴們，大家好。在開始前我是不是可以先請幾位主管？第一位是教育部鄭部長，第二位是原民會曾主委，是不是可以請你們先出列？"],["主席：請鄭部長、曾主委。"],["林委員倩綺：因為時間比較緊，所以我就先請幾位部長上來。還有文化部李部長、交通部陳部長跟觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請李部長、交通部伍次長、觀光署周署長。"],["林委員倩綺：經濟部應該不太有機會，但是經濟部也有跟文化部相關的議題，之後我再來繼續做一些處理。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：教育部鄭部長，您好。在前瞻計畫第5期特別預算裡面有關於你們數位學習的計畫，這個是延續第3期、第4期，在數位建設裡面就有22億5,000萬元，但以我目前掌握的數據，不曉得您大概瞭解這個部分的執行率有多少嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上前瞻預算第4期裡面已經達到超過90%，之所以第3期會有一些稍微落後，是因為這個發包比較專業，全國的學術網路比較專業，複雜度高，所以流標了，到第2標才標出去，但是現在整個進度已經上來，到目前已經超過九成了。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。我想你也知道學術網路這個問題，根據我掌握的數據，大概只有31.63%跟14.38%，所以你們現在在這個數據以外，大概還有多少的進程？"],["吳司長穎沺：跟委員報告，在學術網路的部分，臺灣學術網路的服務優化計畫在10月的達成率已經到95.97%，高級中等學校的智慧網路環境暨學術網路提升計畫在10月已經到96.64%。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們後來有追上了。"],["吳司長穎沺：是。"],["林委員倩綺：我這邊做一個提醒，部長也知道本席非常關注偏鄉教育資源的問題，所以在你們這一期的預算有關於偏鄉的部分，本席也請您多加注意，然後持續追蹤，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員關心。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，您可以先請回。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來我想請教原民會，主委，你們在第4期的特別預算裡面有城鄉建設推動原住民族多元產業計畫2.0，總共大概6億元，你們在112、113年度都各編了二億多、三億多，我要談的是你們要辦理優化原住民族商品電商平臺的經費，目前這個部分的執行你覺得如何呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，目前我們全部有9個處，像臺東縣……"],["林委員倩綺：這樣講好了，你滿意嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有的地方真的是還做得不好，我們還要去協助它。"],["林委員倩綺：好，你也知道問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：知道。"],["林委員倩綺：所以本席提醒你，原住民族的商品其實有很多很棒的，但是這個通路平臺如果沒有有效的運用，感覺對整個部落的產品很可惜。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["林委員倩綺：其實還有一些都會的產品，我們也希望這個平臺能夠真正地發揮作用。","接下來，這次在原民部落營造編了9億元，我要特別提醒有關族語教室的部分，雖然這個跟教育部有一點關係，但是主委，很多族語教室是設在學校的校長室或者餐廳，我想您應該有掌握這個部分在教育資源上的不足嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["林委員倩綺：所以是不是可以多做一些改進，在這個計畫下跟教育部一起來推動？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們可以協助。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主委。接下來很快地請教文化部，部長，在第4期預算當中有關文化生活圈的部分，我講得快一點，就是大部分是補助縣市政府，可是有一些流標，還有，在效益比較不彰的情況下，你們說有一些標案是流標的，有一些是規劃進度落後，我不曉得您對這個部分的掌握目前是如何？"],["李部長遠：我們文化場館的修繕跟改建基本上有一些難度，最近整個進度應該是還好。"],["林委員倩綺：我最後要提醒，依據主計總處的數據，如果您看得到的話，你們的材料成本是逐年上升的，可是整個計畫的經費卻是逐年下降的，你有沒有思考到縣市政府有沒有可能完成？我想縣市政府的財力基本上都很飄搖，文化部如果沒有一些挹注的話，對他們來講可能很困難，你們在執行上可能也會有一些問題喔。"],["李部長遠：如果本身在建造上有問題的話，通常文化部會請地方政府寫計畫上來，我們會審核，如果合理的話，我們就會編在下一次的預算。"],["林委員倩綺：所以這個部分我要請部長多加看管。"],["李部長遠：我會。"],["林委員倩綺：我們不希望很多地方的建設因此而被卡住。接下來，請問一下，嘉義文創園區W棟的無償撥用是什麼樣的狀況？嘉義市政府都已經將相關的經費編了，可是你們為什麼不撥用給他們？"],["李部長遠：不是不撥用，是因為我們還在修繕中。至於如何使用，其實我們跟嘉義市政府、原來的管理單位美學基金會，三方面已經討論到如何共同使用這個空間，並不是不撥，因為還在修繕……"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分請部長多加注意。"],["李部長遠：會。"],["林委員倩綺：嘉義市已經有很大的聲音，因為這個文創園區周邊的設施都整備得很齊全了，可是你們這樣子的狀況讓他們都一直陷於未知的情況，所以請部長對這個部分的進度要盯緊。"],["李部長遠：OK，好。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來的議題跟嘉義市也有一點關係，不好意思，請交通部部長，因為跟你們的軌道建設有關。我想請教一下交通部，你們在第5期編列的軌道建設高架化延伸到民雄，請問為什麼沒有到嘉義市？以前在前瞻計畫裡面你們一開始是延伸到嘉義市，為什麼現在在第5期都已經到了最後，結果沒有到嘉義市？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有，嘉義市的部分我們是用公務預算下去編列。"],["林委員倩綺：你確定有嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：確定。"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分是不是可以請你們跟本席做一個更細部的報告？"],["伍次長勝園：可以。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝交通部。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。","接著請林岱樺委員，林岱樺、林岱樺，林岱樺不在。","請王正旭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸",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可以可以如期完工所以到時候就可以來進行這個通車典禮嘛是那就讓我們整個集集支線的這個包括"},{"start":138.926,"end":161.764,"text":"關光重現生機到時候也特別在2026年的7月完工之後通車的時候也特別邀請次長包括部長一起來進行這個通車跟啟用謝謝委員因為本席在這裡提到是台鐵直線因為目前他在做一個整修所以相關上次我們看的時候"},{"start":162.344,"end":162.604,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":182.493,"end":197.918,"text":"目前沒有問題啊目前沒有問題對OK好那太好了那本期在接著的話要針對部長就特別感謝交通部因為也剛好建設計我們回應南投的鄉親謝謝那接著的話要請教課委會"},{"start":200.754,"end":219.248,"text":"克維會克維會克家369級浪漫台山線8億的經費目前來講我們看到了桃竹苗還包括是臺中、高雄、屏東甚至東部的花蓮都有申請8億多用了4億多包括克家博覽會"},{"start":220.169,"end":243.689,"text":"但是在這裡在南投縣未來要成立客家發展所那其實南投縣的客家族群那基本來講有6萬多如果以廣義來講就是結婚的加起來將近有三分之一到四分之一是跟客家有淵源那本期在這裡要提出這個客家的發展他除了在客家縣市他在各個縣市其實都有客家族群"},{"start":244.73,"end":260.969,"text":"本席也在這裡希望說看到前瞻基礎過去在客家族群的照顧都局限於這個桃竹苗跟就是北客或南客那在客家博覽會未來在南投縣是不是可以在舉辦明年度的時候也可以在南投縣找個地方當作職場地獲分論壇"},{"start":264.517,"end":288.871,"text":"在前瞻的部分前瞻預算已經分配完了那我們會在公務預算上來支持各地的客家的在建設不管是活動部分那因為前瞻預算分配完我們看到第4期跟第5期這要都有顯示但是也因為這樣子更凸顯著在其他的縣像南投縣其實在客家族群是沒有被照顧到的或是較少被照顧到的"},{"start":289.831,"end":306.5,"text":"平常過去一直以來到現在我目前為止也是都由公務預算來執行我們沒有否認客委會的努力跟用心因為南投縣客家活動我都有參與只是本席在這裡提出是其實南投縣在客家發展所將來在明年成立之後"},{"start":307.04,"end":328.019,"text":"那在客家博覽會的話都是在這個桃竹苗或是高雄屏東來去舉辦那在其他縣市其實也有客家族群那也希望讓更多人能夠了解客家文化所以未來供預算的部分是不是可以在前瞻計畫現在的遺族之憾那能夠讓我們南投縣將來有相關的指輪場或"},{"start":328.619,"end":357.288,"text":"是跟委員報告這也是我們接下來的任務就是區域的發展整個要均衡客家的區域不只在桃竹苗連桃園桃竹苗的海線的客家的部分然後像委員提的南投嘉義嘉義也有很多那以及那個高雄屏東沒有在裡頭的我們都會列在裡頭以及花東這個區域的整個區域的發展包括像宜蘭也有部分的是客家聚落"},{"start":357.668,"end":360.972,"text":"因此,我們會以全面均衡發展區域客家。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2751,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（15時34分）謝謝召委，有請交通部。"],["主席：請交通部伍次長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["游委員顥：次長好。大家都知道臺灣有三大鐵路支線，在南投縣是集集支線，這牽扯到南投縣的觀光命脈，包括名間的濁水，還有集集、水里一直到車埕。上次您有跟院長一起來，相信您也知道，臺鐵集集支線基礎設施改善計畫的執行期程從108年到115年，以前瞻第4期的成效跟第5期編列的預算來講，請問第5期編列的相關經費是多少？"],["伍次長勝園：總共編了3億元。"],["游委員顥：它的總經費是23.63億，在這邊編了3億，23.63億是不是有完全編足？有沒有短少？"],["伍次長勝園：我們會有修正計畫、會再增加，如果前瞻沒有辦法應付，我們後面會編公務預算。"],["游委員顥：目前來講的話短少多少？"],["伍次長勝園：剛剛講了，我們目前是編足了，如果有修正計畫，到時候再從公務預算來編列。"],["游委員顥：好，因為大家都非常關心這個支線的進度，尤其是從第4期的成效到第5期的預算編列，次長在這裡也確實承諾就是完全編足嘛！所以23.63億在第5期是完全編足？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["游委員顥：它的計畫期程是從108年8月到115年7月，如果預算有編足的話，是不是可以在2026年7月如期完工？"],["伍次長勝園：對，可以，沒有問題。"],["游委員顥：可以如期完工，所以到時候就可以進行通車典禮，讓整個集集支線的觀光能夠重現生機。在2026年7月完工通車的時候，也特別邀請次長和部長一起來參加通車典禮及啟用，好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好的，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：本席在這裡要提到的是，因為臺鐵支線目前在整修，上次我們去看的時候，怕山坡之前的結構有受損，以這一段期間來講，不僅部長那時候有來，院長也有來，大家一直都擔心工程的期程是不是可以在2026年7月如期通車……"],["伍次長勝園：目前沒有問題啊！"],["游委員顥：目前沒有問題？"],["伍次長勝園：對。"],["游委員顥：OK，那太好了！在此特別感謝交通部，也剛好藉這個機會回應南投鄉親，謝謝。","接著要請教客委會，針對客委會客庄369及浪漫台三線8億的經費，目前來講我們看到了桃竹苗，另外還包括臺中、高雄、屏東，甚至東部的花蓮都有申請，八億多已經用了四億多，包括客家博覽會。南投縣未來要成立客家發展所，南投縣的客家族群基本上有六萬多，如果以廣義來講，加起來將近有三分之一到四分之一是跟客家有淵源，客家的發展除了在客家縣市，其實在各個縣市都有客家族群。看到前瞻計畫過去對於客家族群的照顧都侷限於桃竹苗，也就是北客或南客，明年度舉辦客家博覽會的時候，是不是也可以在南投縣找個地方當子場地或分論壇？"],["古主任委員秀妃：在前瞻的部分，前瞻預算已經分配完了，我們會在公務預算上來支持各地客家不管是建設或活動的部分。"],["游委員顥：關於前瞻預算的分配，我們看到第4期跟第5期的資料都有顯示，但是也因為這樣子，更凸顯在其他縣市，像南投縣的客家族群其實是沒有被照顧到的，或是較少被照顧到的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：一直以來，從過去到目前為止，也是都由公務預算來支持。"],["游委員顥：我們沒有否認客委會的努力跟用心，因為南投縣客家活動我都有參與，只是本席在這裡提出，其實南投縣客家發展所在明年成立之後，客家博覽會都是在桃竹苗或者高雄、屏東舉辦，但是在其他縣市其實也有客家族群，也希望讓更多人能夠瞭解客家文化，所以未來公務預算的部分是不是可以挹注在現在前瞻計畫的遺珠之憾，讓南投縣將來有相關的子論壇跟活動論壇？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，這也是我們接下來的任務，就是客家區域的發展整個要均衡，不只在桃竹苗，連桃竹苗海線客家的部分，然後像委員提的南投、嘉義，嘉義也有很多，以及高雄、屏東沒有列在裡頭的，我們都會列在裡頭，還有花東，也就是整個區域的發展，包括像宜蘭也有部分是客家聚落，所以我們會全面均衡地發展區域客家。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝，我們一起為客家文化推動來努力，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員。","接著請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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部長我們在現在有很多媒體報導的訊息裡面看到這一位"},{"start":107.974,"end":133.255,"text":"親身的公務員說到他有被打被迫打假卡的狀況部長有看到嗎平常先講如果就調查小組的調查他就打假卡的狀況確實就是不尋常部長我要說的事情是從我從勞動部的這些公務人員來跟我們說的訊息裡面"},{"start":134.926,"end":137.729,"text":"我要跟部長講齁我們收到的訊息是這樣子的署長也在這邊第一個謝分署長"},{"start":160.489,"end":187.29,"text":"很長時間在要求大家要大量的加班交付很重的工作但重點是他不讓同仁們報加班好所以當公務員被要求大量加班但又不讓他報加班的時候最後的結果是什麼只有兩個一個要不就被迫打加卡第二個"},{"start":190.578,"end":218.897,"text":"要不就是請調申請調職這會不會是我們有這麼多的北分署的公務員要求調職請調的原因我認為這件事情部長應該要查明清楚所以我要說的事情是這恐怕不是只是對這一位親身的公務員的個案的問題如果這一位謝分署長"},{"start":220.609,"end":248.371,"text":"他是在整個署的領導裡面都長期的要求大家用這種方式打假卡部長我要問請問勞動部對於其他企業進行工時進行勞檢的時候要怎麼開罰謝謝委員提供這個訊息我真的也是第一次聽到部長這是很多這些基層來跟我們反映的事情所以為什麼我們要說為什麼大家覺得失望"},{"start":249.434,"end":254.776,"text":"因為像這樣子的事件大家都沒有在這個調查報告裡面看到謝芬署長對於署下的要求不是只對這位親身的公務員啊是整個署啊這是為什麼現在我們收到的訊息裡面接收到的爆料裡面有這麼多是來自於勞發署、北分署他們受不了"},{"start":280.131,"end":293.476,"text":"部長所以我想請問所以接下來在你得知了這些新的狀況以後你會怎麼對謝分署長或者是該做的處置你會怎麼處置我已經謝分署長會計兩大過停職然後"},{"start":297.455,"end":325.53,"text":"我想蔡署長我會給我會寄他一個大過調離主管職然後我們會移送司法移送司法對移送司法檢調以及公務人員懲戒委呃就是監察院部長我在這邊當然我知道今天下午的時候你有做了這樣子的宣示這是你說這是你的態度可是我這邊想要再跟部長說我認為我們需要在最快速度讓打假卡的文化"},{"start":326.909,"end":341.819,"text":"在勞動部消失按照我剛才說的我想我們會來測查我們所有的主管如果勞動部都變成是帶頭要求打假卡的話那我們怎麼勞檢啊我們真的沒有辦法勞檢啊我們會來測查處長你知不知道這件事情在北分署裡面這麼多的同仁"},{"start":354.502,"end":382.75,"text":"被要求大量加班又被要求不能報加班最後只能打假卡署長報告委員 那個就是上班的時間跟他的刷卡確實有不一致這個是確實那至於說那個 署長我現在問的是整個署喔我現在不是指說這一個公務員喔我的 我說的是整個署有這樣子的文化跟這樣的要求署長知不知道是 這個部分確實有很多反應這個部分那為什麼署長之前沒處理"},{"start":385.281,"end":399.53,"text":"為什麼反映了沒有寫在調查報告裡面?你覺得這件事情跟謝宏的狀況無關嗎?那為什麼沒有寫在調查報告裡面?你說你也聽聞到這樣的事情?所以在寫這個調查報告前你知道這個事情嗎?"},{"start":411.158,"end":417.182,"text":"發言委員並沒有很清楚並沒有很清楚整個署有這樣子打夾卡的文化你說你沒有很清楚署長發言委員這個是我沒有沒有盡到我的職責所以部長我希望齁當然我知道你做了處置但我我們在這邊要必須要求"},{"start":437.349,"end":465.425,"text":"打假卡的做法跟文化必須要在勞動部裡面全面的清查不能讓它存在這不是這一位公務人員他到底死因為何直接因素為何的問題這是到底我們的勞動部還有沒有辦法再繼續成為臺灣中華民國政府在勞動方面的主管機關大家還信不信任勞動部的問題部長可以嗎好"},{"start":468.853,"end":468.954,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2128,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（15時30分）謝謝主席，請何部長。"],["主席：何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們今天在衛環委員會討論這個議題，坦白說非常非常沉重，我想先再問部長一次，部長，你覺得昨天勞動部公布的調查報告，你對這個調查報告的內容滿意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想我自己也不滿意。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，其實你應該知道這一個多星期以來，我的辦公室非常非常關注這件事情，我也好幾度提醒勞動部必須非常非常審慎處理這件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我必須坦白說，當昨天我看到調查報告的時候，我是非常非常失望的，我的失望是一回事，但從昨天調查報告公布以後，我接到更多來自勞動部基層的陳情，我最擔心的事情是，勞動部的基層對調查報告或對勞動部更失望，我最擔心這件事情，所以昨天在調查報告公布以後，坦白說，我是接到更多這樣子的訊息的。部長，我想請問如果勞動部針對企業做勞檢的時候，發現雇主要求勞工打假卡，這有沒有違法？會不會開罰？"],["鄒署長子廉：事實明確就會開罰。"],["洪委員申翰：事實明確會開罰嘛！"],["鄒署長子廉：出勤紀錄登載不實，依照勞基法就可以做處分。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們在現在很多媒體報導的訊息裡面看到這一位輕生的公務員有被迫打假卡的狀況，部長有看到嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：憑良心講，如果就調查小組的調查，他打假卡的狀況確實就是不尋常。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要說的事情是，從勞動部這些公務人員來跟我們說的訊息裡面，恐怕被迫打假卡的不是只有這位公務員，而是北分署在這個分署長就任以來的這段時間都是這樣做的。我要跟部長講，我們收到的訊息是這樣子的，署長也在這邊，第一個，謝分署長很長時間要求大家要大量的加班，交付很重的工作，但重點是他不讓同仁們報加班，所以當公務員被要求大量加班，但又不讓他報加班的時候，最後的結果是什麼？只有兩個，一個要不就被迫打假卡；第二個，要不就是請調、申請調職，這會不會是有這麼多北分署的公務員要求調職、請調的原因，我認為這件事情部長應該要查明清楚。"],["何部長佩珊：這很嚴重。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我要說的是，這恐怕不只是這一位輕生的公務員的個案問題。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：如果這位謝分署長在整個署的領導裡面，長期要求大家用這種方式打假卡，部長，我要問，請問勞動部對於其他企業進行工時勞檢的時候要怎麼開罰？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員提供這個訊息，我真的也是第一次聽到。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，這是很多基層來跟我們反映的事情，為什麼我們要說大家覺得失望？因為像這樣子的事件，大家都沒有在這個調查報告裡面看到，謝分署長對於屬下的要求，不是只對這位輕生的公務員，是整個署，這是為什麼現在我們收到的訊息裡面、接收到的爆料裡面，有這麼多是來自於勞發署北分署，他們受不了。部長，我想請問，接下來在你得知了這些新的狀況以後，你會怎麼對謝分署長？或者該做的處置你會怎麼處置？"],["何部長佩珊：謝分署長會記兩大過停職，然後我想蔡署長，我會記他一個大過，調離主管職，然後會移送司法檢調以及公務人員懲戒……就是監察院。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，當然我知道今天下午的時候，你有做了這樣的宣示，你說這是你的態度，可是我這邊想要再跟部長說，我認為我們需要用最快速度讓打假卡的文化在勞動部消失，按照我剛才說的……"],["何部長佩珊：我們會來徹查所有的主管有沒有這樣的行為。"],["洪委員申翰：如果勞動部都變成帶頭要求打假卡的話，那我們怎麼勞檢？我們真的沒有辦法勞檢啊！"],["何部長佩珊：我們會來徹查……"],["洪委員申翰：署長，你知不知道這件事情？在北分署裡面，這麼多同仁被要求大量加班，又被要求不能報加班，最後只能打假卡，署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，上班的時間跟他的刷卡確實有不一致，這個是確實，至於說加班……"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我現在問的是整個署喔！我現在不是指這一個公務員喔！我說的是整個署有這樣子的文化跟這樣的要求，署長，知不知道？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個部分確實有很多反映。"],["洪委員申翰：那為什麼署長之前沒處理？"],["蔡署長孟良：但是那個加班……"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼反映了沒有寫在調查報告裡面？你覺得這件事情跟謝宜容的狀況無關嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：他一定是有相關的因果關係。"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼沒有寫在調查報告裡面？你說你也聽聞到這樣的事情。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這個也是最近在整個調查時有一些事實慢慢去呈現，這個我們會進一步再來了解。"],["洪委員申翰：在寫這個調查報告前，你知道這個事情嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，並沒有很清楚。"],["洪委員申翰：整個署有這樣子打假卡的文化，你說你沒有很清楚，署長？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這個是我沒有盡到我的職責。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，當然我知道你做了處置，但我們在這邊必須要求，打假卡的作法跟文化必須要在勞動部裡面全面的清查，不能讓它存在，這不是這一位公務人員到底死因為何、直接因素為何的問題，這是到底勞動部還有沒有辦法繼續成為臺灣、中華民國政府在勞動方面的主管機關，大家還信不信任勞動部的問題，部長，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長。","接續請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab704e229f22d17a231ff0707298ac1983f42805494607c278d4ef907c701a5e415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"15:26:59 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接著我們請游浩游委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2712,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（15時27分）謝謝召委，有請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：好，教育部鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安。怕你坐在這邊太久，沒有走動，所以要跟你請教一個跟雙語政策有關的問題。先請問部長，因為未來體育署要升格，明年度的體育經費在教育部下面的是多少錢？你大概記得嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：大概80億。"],["范委員雲：80億？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：已經很多人說要升格了，希望體育預算要增加。可是在教育部下面，教育部是體育預算最主要的部會，也只有80億，可是我們看到在前瞻裡面，雙語政策的經費從125億增加到150億，所以我說雙語政策占教育部的教育經費裡面相當高，部長同意吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該說我們把每一筆錢都用在為臺灣新世代人才的培育上。"],["范委員雲：當然體育也是。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們不會浪費，我們會讓它能夠展現它的價值。"],["范委員雲：好，我並不是說錢花得多不好，並不是質疑它比體育經費高不好，而是非常多委員都會質詢體育這個部分，可是關於雙語政策怎麼推動，其實非常少人會好好地來跟教育部討論。今天就想跟你討論你們雙語政策的六大重點裡面的其中一個我非常關心的，就是你們的2030雙語政策推動重點裡面，這邊就是你們的影像，有一個是弭平偏鄉落差。我認為弭平偏鄉落差當然非常好，因為我們知道都會的家長可能都會讓自己的小孩去補英語或者自己找師資，可是看你明年的經費，每一項都增加了，可是這一項並沒有增加。我想請問部長，你們到底是怎麼樣弭平偏鄉英語程度的落差？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，在偏鄉裡面，確實它是非常重要的一塊，所以我們在雙語的學伴，有800名的大學生會進入到偏鄉去協助，不管假日或者寒暑假。我們也透過數位共讀協助偏鄉，並補助2萬台平板。另外，我們還有酷英網，讓學童能夠自學，包含我們也發展出英語能力的自我檢測，我想我們有交叉性的……"],["范委員雲：因為時間的緣故，我知道部長講的在你們的計畫書內都有，你們的計畫書第4頁就有提到您剛剛講的這些方法，其中我最關注的是穩定偏鄉師資來源，包含雙語公費生、偏鄉合理員額以及雙語、數位學習資源，我只是要請問部長，這些方法真的都已經很好了嗎？為什麼在這麼龐大的經費下，其他每一個都增加，我框起來的「2-2提供偏遠地區學生學習支持」部分，卻完全沒有調整？我其實有第一個疑問想請問部長……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上在偏遠條例有另外的13億，是特別用來消弭城鄉差異的部分，對偏鄉教育的一個教育……"],["范委員雲：那是針對所有的，並不是針對英語的部分。現在我想請問你英語的另外一個問題，就是英語程度有非常好的，有的小一時就程度很好，但也有非常差的，我希望雙語政策不是讓好的更好、贏者全拿、老師配合很厲害的學生來教，而是應該要讓原本家庭資源比較少的學生能夠跟上，能夠有好的英文程度，問題是我現在看不到你們針對英語程度比較差的學生，其實都市也有英語程度比較差的，要怎麼去補強？日前臺師大林子斌教授就有提到教育現場的五大亂象，包括英語老師慘為全校翻譯機、每科都雙語，反而揠苗助長等等，部長回應未來不會強迫非英語課的老師用英語上課，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，確實英語課一定要努力用英文上課，當然部分領域，像國語、數學、科學這些科目，基本上我們是不會……"],["范委員雲：其實教育部在這方面的政策轉彎蠻大的，我想這不是部長的責任，是在你之前……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們沒有轉彎，我們是深化……"],["范委員雲：深化？"],["鄭部長英耀：我進來以後，特別要求國教署在未來、從2024到2030，以6年分二個階段、三個時期，每一個階段，從小孩子各年齡的自我介紹，包括學校怎麼樣在比較生活化、日常生活裡的一個……"],["范委員雲：好，瞭解，部長，你讓我收個尾，馬上好。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：之前我也質詢過花蓮縣的情況，譬如徵國文老師要求要會英文類似這樣的亂象，教育部不斷地在處理……"],["鄭部長英耀：這個確實我們部裡有發文請各地方修正。"],["范委員雲：因為原來有這個政策，就是鼓勵非英語的老師用英語授課，我現在想講的就是兩件事，第一，教育部是不是能夠邀請第一線的英文老師來召開滾動式檢討會議，因為我認為英文老師的方法、經驗應該是教育部最要聽的……"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["范委員雲：第二個，可不可以召集教育跟語言的專家展開諮詢會議，針對臺灣這種母語不是英語的國家，商討適切的教學方法，好不好？我想不要讓它變成地方政府跟校長、教師的……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，這也正是我們努力的方向，因為透過教育的經驗分享，擴散效果是非常快速也非常大的，感謝委員的提醒。"],["范委員雲：雙語教育的經費幾乎是體育的兩倍，所以教育部的方法真的……"],["鄭部長英耀：體育還有另外一個基金，還有……"],["范委員雲：還有另外基金，但我算起來大概是159億，跟這個非常接近。這部分，請部長先給我一個簡單規劃，看你們要怎麼做，後續我再追蹤，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["范委員雲：可不可以一個月內給我一個初步規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝部長，一起加油。"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員。","接著請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1969,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時15分）麻煩請勞動部長，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，昨天你開記者會告訴大家說這個謝宜容到底要怎麼處理，要送考績會來斷定，你不能夠直接停職、免職，但是今天你說你要記他兩大過停職之後，剛剛已經有消息傳出來說他要辭職，然後要去美國陪小孩，請問有這件事嗎？有這件事嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我剛剛才看到。"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛才看到？所以他請辭是跟誰請辭？"],["何部長佩珊：署長知道嗎？"],["葉委員元之：署長知道這個事嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：現在沒有得到這樣的……"],["葉委員元之：還沒有這個消息？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：所以並沒有收到辭呈？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：我想要問部長，其實這個事件社會很震驚、很關心、也很痛心，大家除了看謝宜容的所作所為之外，也在看勞動部第一時間處理這個事情的態度。我感覺昨天勞動部第一時間就是想要息事寧人，你們昨天說沒有辦法證實這位員工的輕生和這個分署長的霸凌有關，沒有直接的關係，這昨天你們講的吧？是吧？你今天經過這麼多委員的詢問，你還是認為沒有直接關係嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想透過層層的傳導。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有關係嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：會有關係。"],["葉委員元之：是有直接關係？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["葉委員元之：你現在又覺得有直接關係了？好。"],["何部長佩珊：我是說透過層層的傳導……"],["葉委員元之：所以昨天說沒有直接關係，今天又說有直接關係。部長，你昨天說你們的調查報告是嘔心瀝血之作，今天你說要重啟調查，請問一下，如果是嘔心瀝血之作，為什麼今天又要重啟調查？為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：因為委員會要求。"],["葉委員元之：是委員會要求，還是你也覺得那個報告不是嘔心瀝血之作？"],["何部長佩珊：我也同意、我也同意。"],["葉委員元之：你也同意，那為什麼昨天第一時間你說是嘔心瀝血之作？為什麼？你是自己這樣認為，還是你受到調查委員，甚至於幾位次長的蒙蔽？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，因為那真的是外部專家花了很多時間……"],["葉委員元之：如果是這樣的話，為什麼你要重啟調查？那就尊重啊！"],["何部長佩珊：因為委員會要求……"],["葉委員元之：所以是委員會要求？"],["何部長佩珊：我們必須尊重委員會。"],["葉委員元之：所以部長你還是認為那個是嘔心瀝血之作，所以調查出來可能也是差不多？是這個意思？"],["何部長佩珊：絕對不是。"],["葉委員元之：所以你也覺得不是嘔心瀝血之作？再來，我想請教一下，「目的良善」，早上很多委員問你，「目的良善」這幾個字是因為專家基於平衡而出來的用語，這是你講的嘛！對不對？對嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["葉委員元之：「目的良善」，你們說為什麼要寫「目的良善」這四個字是因為專家基於平衡……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，所謂基於平衡是指說當然在他們專業的論述、陳述上面，他們都必須正反……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得非常奇怪的是為什麼這種事情要基於平衡？調查報告就是把事實呈現，幹嘛要基於平衡？"],["何部長佩珊：平衡就是事實，也是事實，也是基於事實……"],["葉委員元之：那你就說基於事實嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["葉委員元之：所以「目的良善」，就是你到現在還認為這個分署長，他的霸凌行為是基於事實的目的良善，是這個意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：那是外部專家的認知。"],["葉委員元之：那你同意嗎？你同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：那是外部專家的認知，我得尊重。"],["葉委員元之：你尊重，但你同意嗎？你同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然我沒有，我也不認同這樣子……"],["葉委員元之：你不認同嘛！因為這個事情害你們勞動部被罵爆了嘛！網友都說「目的良善」這四個字，為所有企業重新的定義，只要目的良善就可以大聲講話，就可以隨便罵人，就不叫霸凌啊！再來，昨天你說必須要通過考績會才能夠對他作出處分，你沒有直接權力，為什麼今天你又有權力了？為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我還是一樣要開考績會處理啊！"],["葉委員元之：那你怎麼可以直接說就要給他停職呢？"],["何部長佩珊：這是我的態度，我向委員會表達我的態度。"],["葉委員元之：你的態度，所以你的態度有可能跟考績會不一樣，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：一樣啊！應該是會一樣的，可是我還是得尊重考績會的議決。"],["葉委員元之：一樣？應該是會一樣，就代表你就可以決定了嘛，我講那麼多……"],["何部長佩珊：那還是必須尊重、經過考績會的程序。"],["葉委員元之：所以有可能不一樣？有可能不一樣？"],["何部長佩珊：不會不一樣，要經過考績會的程序。"],["葉委員元之：不會不一樣？那你就可以決定了嘛！所以昨天第一時間……"],["何部長佩珊：這是兩件事，委員，這是兩件事。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，部長，如果說你本來就可以決定，而且結果不一樣，你昨天第一時間就可以表明態度，你要給他記兩大過停職，你昨天為什麼沒有？為什麼要讓火燒了一天之後，今天才說要給他停職，為什麼？第一時間不跟大家講清楚……"],["何部長佩珊：因為我改變我的思考。"],["葉委員元之：你得思考？"],["何部長佩珊：因為我改變我的思考。"],["葉委員元之：所以部長，我再跟你講，謝宜容這個人有問題，我相信經過大家的討論都不用再講了，大家現在要看的是勞動部的態度，勞動部如果第一時間是想息事寧人，說要怎麼處分是考績會決定，我不能講，或是說這是嘔心瀝血的報告，或是說這是目的良善，你們去講這些讓大家覺得是在包庇他的話，大家會對勞動部失望啊！"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有包庇他。"],["葉委員元之：你知道網友現在已經把這個事件跟洪仲丘事件連結，為什麼？第一個，都是跟霸凌有關。第二個，都是官僚主義在包庇，這是大家現在對勞動部的感覺！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我做調查報告就是希望不包庇。"],["葉委員元之：不包庇結果做出來的是這樣的報告，大家都不滿意。再來，請教一下，如果你要重新調查的話，你還會找許傳盛、黃玲娜、吳雅慧這三個人來調查嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：黃玲娜和吳雅慧都不是調查小組成員。"],["葉委員元之：那他們三個是？"],["何部長佩珊：只有許傳盛是召集人。"],["葉委員元之：那另外兩位呢？"],["何部長佩珊：另外兩位，吳雅慧參事是我的機要……"],["葉委員元之：他們在調查的過程當中扮演的角色是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：他沒有角色。"],["葉委員元之：完全沒角色？"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！整個調查小組……"],["葉委員元之：好，所以就不會找他們嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：當然，這是網路的……"],["葉委員元之：那你就回答就好啦！你嗆我幹嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：對不起、對不起！"],["葉委員元之：奇怪！我問你問題你就回答就好，現在要來吵架是不是？是我做錯事嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對不起！這是網路上的不實訊息。"],["葉委員元之：那你就澄清啊！我現在問你，你說不是那就不是，就澄清啊！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：你罵我幹嘛？再來，五一勞動節時賴總統說民進黨一直是跟勞工站在一起的政黨，這是賴總統講的，發生了這樣不幸的勞工事件，還是在勞動部發生，請問賴總統要出來講話嗎？你會建議他出來講話嗎？賴總統說……"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，這是我的錯。"],["葉委員元之：你的錯，所以跟賴總統無關？"],["何部長佩珊：這是我的錯，我自己承擔。"],["葉委員元之：你知道當時洪仲丘事件的時候，馬總統有出來講話。"],["何部長佩珊：這是我的錯，我自己承擔。"],["葉委員元之：你自己承擔，所以你保護賴總統？這可以看到一個總統的高度，可以看到一個總統是否站在勞工這邊，看到總統遇到一個舉國關注、這樣不幸事件的態度，我只想問部長，基於你是勞工的最高主管機關，你會建議賴總統像馬總統一樣出來跟大家講幾句話嗎？你會這樣建議嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我自己承擔。"],["葉委員元之：所以你不會建議？請教部長，前部長許銘春說他看了這個事件非常遺憾，但是他把原因歸咎於勞動部人員長期不足，這樣講法你認同嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這是原因之一。"],["葉委員元之：原因之一？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["葉委員元之：你是勞動部，發生這樣的原因，然後就兩手一攤，說就是因為長期不足的關係，所以造成這個問題，都沒有人要去解決這個問題？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，因為勞動部也是公務體制。"],["葉委員元之：所以呢？"],["何部長佩珊：那是人總在決定員額，不是勞動部可以決定的。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你是勞動部，照道理來講，你應該最站在勞工這邊，結果你遇到這個問題兩手一攤，說你們也沒辦法解決這個問題……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個就是勞動部……"],["葉委員元之：如果連你們都不能保護你們自己的勞工，你怎麼祈求全臺灣的企業會保護員工？"],["何部長佩珊：事實上，勞動部無法決定自己的員額有多少。"],["葉委員元之：那你有去爭取嗎？你有為了你們自己的勞工權益捍衛嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：111年許部長已經爭取過，我……"],["葉委員元之：現在的問題是你是勞動部，你一直宣導勞工權益很重要，要所有企業重視勞工權益，結果勞動部卻沒辦法捍衛你們自己的勞工權益。這位不幸輕生的當事人，我看到剛剛徐巧芯也有問，為什麼他加班不用給加班費？他有沒有超時工作？有沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：他有超時工作。"],["葉委員元之：有，發生在你們勞動部就是最諷刺的地方，你都不檢討，然後說都是人事行政總處的問題，因為員額受到控管，那你要減少讓員工做一些不必要的工作，就好比這個員工提到，做這個系統對於幫助勞動部、對於職涯發展沒有任何幫助，你們可以減少不必要的工作量，不是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，是，這都我們的錯，我們應該要檢討。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp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私家署看一個表格社家署是嗎?對,我不知道這是什麼數據這個0到6歲國家一起養2.0這是賴總統推動重要的政策之一不只是政府的補助跟津貼的相關的資源到位那嬰幼兒的托育制度也是非常的重要我們可以看這個表格請部長跟署長看一下你看你底下的這個部件托育資源中心部件人數"},{"start":230.709,"end":238.672,"text":"我們就看112跟113都已經達到125,達到400但是受益萬能次的最下一個 112年度是98.87為什麼113年度是51.37能不能簡單說明一下時間的關係好,可不可以說明一下這五"},{"start":250.066,"end":273.112,"text":"報告委員是因為疫情的關係疫情的關係對對所以有些稍微想調整疫情的關係應該部件拖曳支援中心會跟拖動社區公共拖曳設施遇到的狀況會一致嘛對不對對阿為什麼你的公共拖曳的設施社區公共拖曳的設施你的部件部件數113.100、113.125但是受益人數120是126、113年度是170"},{"start":279.241,"end":279.341,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":295.106,"end":297.288,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ．"},{"start":315.703,"end":315.803,"text":"主席"},{"start":331.854,"end":351.591,"text":"而且112年的下半年度跟113年度的這個狀況執行怎麼會跟疫情有關係?你總是要先這邊打我啊!你事情要再跟我講什麼再講啊!公開來先回應清楚啊!你回應不清楚你事情現在也不用再跟我講了啊!"},{"start":354.096,"end":375.826,"text":"跟我有說明,因為這邊的統計實施到113年6月,所以看到319,那如果是112,一整年是600多,就是還有半年的數據沒有呈現。一樣啊,你對照你的社區公共設施嘛,怎麼你下面就是可以達標,你下面這個托育資源中心你就能幫我達標,而且落差值非常大。"},{"start":380.863,"end":394.509,"text":"一百一十二年度就是九十八點八七一一三年度就是五十一點三七啊快減半了快砍半了但是你的公共托育設施我一直在講你一二可以達到一二六一一三還跑到一百七的啊"},{"start":399.318,"end":399.778,"text":"請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":422.243,"end":445.474,"text":"最少你要簡單的有辦法跟我們說明啊因為委員可以看到我們的托育資源中心在113年目標值是621他是全年度的那這邊提到的統計是到113年6月底是319所以他就是大概執行一半到年底的時候預計就會達到621這是我們到年底的目標值那因為現在統計只有半年所以他的那個達成率只有51%"},{"start":449.206,"end":450.887,"text":"好 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234.271,"end":248.923,"text":"從哪一個會計科目向下支出?那個會計科目我可能要再瞭解一個禮拜之內喔!把這件事情的原委寫清楚喔!我們這個會期在審查預算嘛!勞動部預算很多啊!很有錢啊!一個分署長請出去吃飯一頓就吃掉4萬多塊啊!"},{"start":260.748,"end":262.332,"text":"有沒有在辦公室裡面裝軌道燈導致電費增加?"},{"start":267.904,"end":270.226,"text":"需要多久?好,兩個禮拜,來接下來繼續請部長他上任以後"},{"start":296.704,"end":307.511,"text":"浪花公堂送禮這件事情有沒有掌握?我們有看到資料你有看到資料嗎?這樣的請問你覺得適不適當?請問鄭鋒處長這個也是在我們調查的範圍裡一樣兩個禮拜嘛對這都是就是那一份的檢舉書裡面我們通通會調查來!裡面禮物有國會統籌運用統籌運用到哪裡知不知道?"},{"start":326.581,"end":353.398,"text":"一樣兩個禮拜調查報告寫清楚這個都是在我們調查範圍內我一樣一樣問嘛我怕你調查報告到時候寫出來跟這份報告一樣嘛避重就輕嘛破綻百出嘛大家為什麼憤怒所以我一點一點跟你們講啊今天沒有答案沒有關係啊我今後兩個禮拜以後的調查報告啊再往下看公帑買的禮盒他自己可以留著喔"},{"start":358.166,"end":360.848,"text":"我現在不是在討論事實是在討論規範規範需要調查"},{"start":388.658,"end":404.167,"text":"他所謂公帑買的禮盒是他所謂送自己人是什麼因為不是啦分署長室自己留著這是你們我鎖是你們回給我的資料嘛他可以自己留著喔可以嗎他那個如果是用公帑買的那就是公務啦"},{"start":411.857,"end":414.238,"text":"我當初我跟你講啦我所有所知都調出來了啦送給誰我要他一樣一樣列清楚啦"},{"start":430.086,"end":442.968,"text":"這個就是他列不清楚的阿直接講說分署長自己留著阿一樣喔兩個禮拜之內報告所以我們會留寫他的流向到什麼地方去事情還沒有結束阿備用125份現在在哪裡一樣兩個禮拜之內寫清楚是堆在倉庫裡還是拿去隨便亂發東西在哪裡"},{"start":456.673,"end":473.996,"text":"我看我們的勞動部很有錢啊有錢到這個程度啊分署長上來不僅官威很大錢也很會亂花拿公帑找設計師買禮物做自己的公關可以這樣幹喔這是這個分署長才幹的還是這是整個勞動部的文化來請部長"},{"start":484.382,"end":503.627,"text":"這絕對不是勞動部的文絕對不是勞動部的文化嘛回去瞭解一下不要再有第二種這種長官出現了更可惡的事情是你知不知道他買禮品的錢從哪裡來的知不知道部長知道嗎請委員那個你們喔"},{"start":507.594,"end":525.684,"text":"就是署裡面的同仁啊我已經跟你們所知了你們就要知道我一定會問這個問題就要幫部長準備好要不然部長站在上面也很辛苦他一定不知道嘛他為什麼會不知道因為匪夷所思嘛我為什麼說匪夷所思來"},{"start":528.851,"end":528.951,"text":"怎麼核銷的?"},{"start":559.537,"end":587.188,"text":"可以嗎?我想應該是不行你覺得應該不行嗎?後面還有更誇張的社群媒體標案可以拿社群媒體標案的錢因為太多啦花不完啦多到花不完還雲芝過來啊買禮物啊部長你覺得這個適合嗎?我想應該也是不適合也是不適合嘛更誇張的是促進銀髮就業青年就業專案也可以拿來送禮"},{"start":588.936,"end":603.213,"text":"我相信啊!所有的立法委員在審預算的時候都不知道啊!勞動部跟立法院要預算是要促進營法就業、要青年就業計畫結果搞了半天拿來送禮喔!錢可以這樣花嗎?請教部長!"},{"start":607.25,"end":608.17,"text":"要透過送旅盒來做廣宣喔?"},{"start":622.996,"end":625.737,"text":"來,我們再往下看就業保險基金可以拿來送禮嗎?救保基金是拿來送禮的嗎?"},{"start":658.236,"end":682.692,"text":"這個就是救保基金裡面的預算了113年來送端午節43萬我再往下看就業安定基金可以拿來送禮嗎?一樣中秋節38萬我看完了以後啊那個請一下部長好嗎?請一下部長這個會期啊"},{"start":685.936,"end":707.345,"text":"要處理預算當我們看到錢這樣花的時候我相信所有的立法委員心裡在問一個問題我們當初通過這個預算的時候是要給這位分署長拿來買禮物做關係嗎我相信沒有立委會同意"},{"start":709.048,"end":723.634,"text":"這些內容是不是可以承諾一併兩個禮拜之內的調查報告要寫清楚可以嗎?該移送檢調的就移送檢調這已經不是只有單純失職的問題了啦該移送檢調的移送檢調希望下一次兩個禮拜兩個禮拜以後出來的報告能夠回應社會這些問題"},{"start":737.793,"end":737.933,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1891,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（15時2分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。這份調查報告公布到現在、您從早上備詢到現在，我覺得你應該可以很清楚地感受到，其實不僅僅是衛環委員會有這麼多委員來質詢，整個社會對這份調查報告是憤怒的，有沒有重啟調查的必要？"],["何部長佩珊：我會重啟調查。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候重啟調查？"],["何部長佩珊：當然馬上就重啟調查。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望重啟調查了以後，真的能夠還原事件的真相，因為有太多的疑問，到現在對於被害人、對於整個社會都沒有個清楚的交代。我看完這份報告以後，我腦海裡面顯現的第一個問題是，這份報告說這個長官涉及職場霸凌、情節重大，但是在前面又說，這位不幸往生的同仁沒有遭受到長官霸凌的情事。我看完了這份報告以後，不斷在思考，調查小組做出來的調查結果是這個分署長有霸凌，但是這個往生的人沒有被霸凌，所有被霸凌的人都沒有往生，剛好是那個往生的人沒有被霸凌。部長，這個報告這樣的結論，你能接受嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這個部分我可以跟您解釋，好嗎？其實是調查報告裡面沒有寫清楚，謝分署長跟那個離開的同仁之間還隔著兩個主管，就是副分署長跟秘書室主任。"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是有其他的主管涉及霸凌嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：也不無可能，因為霸凌的情緒是……"],["黃委員國昌：你說得非常的好！也不無可能。我就直接跟你講，當你們已經認定出來這個分署長有霸凌的事實，但大家看到你們認定的結果是，這位不幸往生的同仁沒有被霸凌，這是一個完全矛盾、完全衝突的調查報告結論。部長，您同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：因為主要是外部專家基於事實而去做的陳述，他們只就他們看到、聽到的事實做，說無法證實。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣的調查報告才會讓社會憤怒，所以你今天才會在這邊承認有重啟調查的必要，是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員國昌：除了不幸往生的事件以外，我收到其他的檢舉，我們一樣一樣來，他有沒有濫用公帑宴請友人？"],["何部長佩珊：針對這個部分，我了解過了，應該是指今年6月……我們政風處長在現場，請政風處長來回答，好嗎？"],["周處長志信：這個案子是東引公所跟東湧協會在5月20號去拜訪北分署，因為這個協會是北分署過去一直在輔導的多元就業協會，所以謝分署長基於公誼，在當天晚上有宴請。"],["黃委員國昌：花了多少錢？"],["周處長志信：餐費部分大概是4萬2,000塊。"],["黃委員國昌：4萬2,000塊？"],["周處長志信：是。"],["黃委員國昌：從哪一個會計科目項下支出？"],["周處長志信：有關會計科目，我可能要再了解。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內，把這件事情的原委寫清楚！我們這個會期在審查預算，勞動部預算很多、很有錢，一個分署長出去請吃飯，一頓就吃掉四萬多塊。有沒有在辦公室裡面裝軌道燈，導致電費增加？知道就說知道，不知道就說不知道嘛！"],["周處長志信：因為我們並沒有收到2月份的檢舉書，我們在這個月11號看到議員爆料的報導以後，已經立案調查，所以這部分也是在我們調查的項目之內。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["周處長志信：大概兩個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：好，兩個禮拜。接下來繼續請部長，他上任以後濫花公帑送禮，這件事情有沒有掌握？"],["何部長佩珊：我們有看到資料。"],["黃委員國昌：你有看到資料嘛！你覺得這樣的行為適不適當？"],["何部長佩珊：我請政風處長。"],["周處長志信：這個也是在我們調查的範圍裡面……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣，兩個禮拜嘛！"],["周處長志信：對，這都在那一份檢舉書裡面，我們通通會調查。"],["黃委員國昌：裡面寫禮物類別是國會統籌運用，統籌運用到哪裡，知不知道？一樣，兩個禮拜調查報告寫清楚。"],["周處長志信：這個都是在我們調查範圍內。"],["黃委員國昌：我一樣一樣問嘛！我怕你調查報告到時候寫出來跟這份報告一樣，避重就輕、破綻百出。大家為什麼憤怒？我一點一點跟你們講，今天沒有答案沒有關係，我靜候兩個禮拜以後的調查報告。再往下看，公帑買的禮盒，他自己可以留著，可以嗎？這個都是我索資的資料，公帑買的禮盒，分署長可以自己留著，可以嗎？不用跟我講事實，跟我講規矩就好了，規矩可不可以留著？請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：我請政風處長說明。"],["周處長志信：我們一併調查了解以後再報告。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在不是在討論事實，是在討論規範，規範需要調查？"],["周處長志信：不是，所謂公帑買的禮盒是……所謂送自己人是什麼……因為……"],["黃委員國昌：不是！分署長是自己留著，這是我索資、你們回給我的資料。他可以自己留著，可以嗎？"],["周處長志信：如果是用公帑買的，那就是公物，公物的話，那他……"],["黃委員國昌：當然是公物，他可以自己留著？"],["周處長志信：他先放在那邊，比如基於公務禮儀，如果他還有什麼需要送給……我們要看它的流向在什麼地方。"],["黃委員國昌：我跟你講，我所有索資都調出來了，送給誰，我要他一樣一樣列清楚，這個就是他列不清楚的。直接說是分署長自己留著，一樣，兩個禮拜之內報告一併寫明。"],["周處長志信：我們會了解它的流向到什麼地方去。"],["黃委員國昌：事情還沒有結束！備用125份現在在哪裡？一樣，兩個禮拜之內寫清楚，是堆在倉庫裡，還是拿去隨便亂發？東西在哪裡？我看勞動部很有錢，有錢到這個程度，分署長上來不僅官威很大，錢也很會亂花，拿公帑找設計師、買禮物，做自己的公關，可以這樣幹喔？這是這個分署長才幹的，還是這是整個勞動部的文化？來，請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：這絕對不是勞動部的文化。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對不是勞動部的文化嘛！回去了解一下。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員國昌：不要再有第二種這種長官出現。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員國昌：更可惡的事情是，你知不知道他買禮品的錢從哪裡來的？知不知道？部長知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：請委員……"],["黃委員國昌：你們署裡面的同仁，我已經跟你們索資了，你們就要知道我一定會問這個問題，就要幫部長準備好，要不然部長站在上面也很辛苦，他一定不知道嘛！他為什麼會不知道？因為匪夷所思嘛！我為什麼說匪夷所思？來，我在預算書裡面完全看不出來，我當初接到這個檢舉以後，第一件事先去找預算書，到底是哪一個會計科目項下送的？我完全看不出來，所以我只能夠請你們回答，花這個錢去買東西，從哪裡來的？辦理青年職能開發業務預算可以拿來送禮嗎？請教部長。"],["何部長佩珊：會計處。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：會計處在嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼核銷的？可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想應該是不行。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你覺得應該不行嘛！後面還有更誇張的，社群媒體標案！可以拿社群媒體標案的錢，因為太多啦，花不完啦，多到花不完還勻支過來買禮物，部長，你覺得這個適合嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想應該也是不適合。"],["黃委員國昌：也是不適合嘛！更誇張的是促進銀髮就業、青年就業專案也可以拿來送禮，我相信所有立法委員在審預算的時候，都不知道勞動部跟立法院要預算是要促進銀髮就業、要青年就業計畫，結果搞了半天拿來送禮，錢可以這樣花嗎？請教部長。"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長回答。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們這些計畫，因為大部分這些計畫都會有所謂的宣導跟廣宣，很多地方我們是利用這樣的一個方式然後……"],["黃委員國昌：要透過送禮盒來做廣宣？"],["蔡署長孟良：輔導我們這些庇護工廠跟多元培力的團體，然後透過這樣的協助，讓整個相關團體有這樣一個行銷的管道，這一部分基本上是希望跟我們的行銷推廣結合在一起。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們再往下看，就業保險基金可以拿來送禮嗎？就保基金是拿來送禮的嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我不知道這個……"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是就保基金裡面的預算，113年送端午節43萬。我再往下看，就業安定基金可以拿來送禮嗎？一樣，中秋節38萬，我看完了以後，請一下部長好嗎？請一下部長。這個會期要處理預算，當我們看到錢這樣花的時候，我相信所有的立法委員心裡在問一個問題，我們當初通過這個預算的時候，是要給這位分署長拿來買禮物做關係嗎？我相信沒有立委會同意。這些內容，是不是可以承諾一併兩個禮拜之內的調查報告要寫清楚？可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員國昌：該移送檢調的就移送檢調。"],["何部長佩珊：好，沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：這已經不是只有單純失職的問題了，該移送檢調的就移送檢調，希望下一次、兩個禮拜以後出來的報告能夠回應社會這些問題，部長可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。黃國昌委員要求兩個禮拜的報告，請給黨團，還要給本委員會。","接續我們請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab3fee3415d93119491ff0707298ac1983f42805494607c2780f546765d3498e985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"14:59:38 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８一、邀請相關部會首長就〉"},{"start":115.283,"end":131.414,"text":"這讓人民覺得我的納稅錢到了前瞻又特別預算,但是我看不到方向啊!我看不到方向啊!你們有沒有預期我到底到什麼時候會有什麼樣的成長?你總是不能無底洞到最後告訴我急落落、膨脹沒有成果啊!"},{"start":132.114,"end":159.056,"text":"所以我具體要求你應該具體策略強化你整個在補助計畫的後續執行監督研發成果的一個落實使用因為你只有研發你沒有去使用你根本把這個錢都浪費掉了而且也讓這個研發者很沒有榮耀啊而且沒有成效嘛那怎麼辦呢你們要怎麼樣去調整這個方案呢"},{"start":160.08,"end":166.564,"text":"好,我們就照委員的意思你去研討那個方案那多久時間可以告訴我們?"},{"start":169.841,"end":194.06,"text":"呃...兩個禮拜內好不好?兩個禮拜告訴我齁你不能現在才告訴我說我因為科技所以我這錢瞻最後一起到時候你說又是錢瞻的錢那到時候沒有錢瞻的錢那先前所投資的那不是浪費掉了嗎?十幾%這個怎麼樣比例人家也聽不進去啊人民的納稅錢那麼辛苦對不對我們願意支持但是要看成效嘛"},{"start":194.48,"end":194.76,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":213.132,"end":218.697,"text":"但是我們又看到經濟部你經濟部自己統計調查的財政部關稅署進口貿易的這個統計呢112年裡頭國內半導體設備需求是多少6858億他的國產比只有11體"},{"start":234.71,"end":260.684,"text":"11.2%雖然你知道你比這個108到111年率有提升但是我們還是發覺在整個比例方面我們還是靠進口我們還是靠進口而且要有6858頁這一塊餅這麼大我們政府怎麼看待之呢所以我要請教我們過度的去仰賴整個海外的設備跟原料的供給"},{"start":261.644,"end":277.077,"text":"我們只佔了十幾%尤其現在美國川普上任之後我們也不知道到底會有什麼樣的變化化學作用所以大家很緊張所以市長你看到這個比例你覺得要怎麼辦"},{"start":277.997,"end":296.863,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們現在也跟國內的半導體業者共同在來幫忙我們國內的一些半導體設備跟材料的這些供應鏈他們能夠提升國產化的一個自主率你看我們的前瞻是5年"},{"start":297.883,"end":314.249,"text":"這是五期這是最後一期我們到現在給我們的答案6千多億將近7千億我們的比11點多我們還沒有拿出這個方案出來所以次長針對這個議題我們要怎麼樣去強化整備我們整個半導體的這個關鍵材料跟它設備供應鏈的韌性"},{"start":322.072,"end":344.127,"text":"這一個耐性是非常的重要讓我們整個材料設備有自主性跟國產化這是我們人民的納稅錢所希望的最重要的精髓嗎是那你們現在怎麼做你也把書面資料給本席好嗎多久時間給本席也是兩個禮拜兩個禮拜最後一個議題我們的這個水災災情跟這個淹水的問題水運署"},{"start":348.51,"end":367.538,"text":"我看到我們一到四期水環境的跟水安全已經投入將近500億的經費來辦理縣市管理這個河川跟區域整合的排水系統整合整體性的一個改善這個大家很加油但是我覺得很納悶在第五期的方面你編列了101億又1000萬可是我來反推113年裡頭6月底你還沒有發包的"},{"start":377.162,"end":387.039,"text":"你還沒有發包的喔你就有92項欸你的1到3項裡頭你還有70項啊這裡工程你沒有發包欸這些就取消"},{"start":388.151,"end":388.391,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":416.938,"end":436.876,"text":"第一個,我們一到四期的執行率,到今年年底絕對會超過95%本席告訴你,本席是針對你的這幾項嗎?那這幾項的部分,因為我們希望提早完工,所以我們是跨年度來核定所以有一些沒有發包的工程,它必須要先取得用地"},{"start":437.777,"end":463.46,"text":"我們是跨年度來分配經費的,包括有一些分配到第5期,所以我們很有信心說第5期的包括101億都可以執行。本期告訴你是第一期到第三期,那你說你要跨到第5期才要來發報?第一期到第三期的部分,事實上我們已經執行結算的這個金額的話,執行率是百分之百。"},{"start":464.541,"end":466.904,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":484.202,"end":504.118,"text":"你現在統計到8月份嘛本期統計的是到6月底以前你還有92項其中就是第一期到第三期有70項還沒有發報那你現在告訴我的是說告訴本期是說你有的是跨期是要跨到第5期才去發報那你為什麼要變到一到三期的呢不是跨到第5期才發報那你剛剛這麼說啊"},{"start":505.902,"end":533.144,"text":"到年底它會發包然後它的使用的經費會跨113跟114實際的這個工作進行的情況是你還是承認你還有這一下還沒發包你會預計到年底才要發包有這個信心嗎?是不是?因為我們增核了我們增核了這一些我們用滾動式的結合對!對!對!對!對!對!所以我知道你們水利單位很辛苦但是我也希望錢要花到刀口上謝謝委員長我們會加強管控好!謝謝"},{"start":536.874,"end":539.277,"text":"謝謝楊強英委員接著我們請劉建國委員謝謝主席有請賴署長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2628,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（14時59分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請經濟部。"],["主席：經濟部何次長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有相關提到哪一個單位，就請上來協助回答。首先是經濟部產業技術司，我們在第五期最後一期的前瞻計畫裡頭編列了綠能建設2.1億元、數位建設27億元，所以總共這個項下是29.3035億，這二十九億多均為獎補助費。對不起時間暫停一下，網路還沒好。","我再次說明，經濟部產業技術司在前瞻第5期特別預算編列二十九億多的經費，我們看到這些經費中補助工研院約十一億多元，占技術司前瞻第5期特別預算編列總數約37.8%。按照技術司所提供的資料，近五年你們整體法人科專計畫研發的成果收入占研發經費投入金額的平均比例是15.34%，但是同期工研院研發成果收入比的平均是14.77%，換句話說，我們花了這麼多錢，卻略低於整體法人研發成果收入比的平均率，這該怎麼辦呢？請說明。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，112年這個比例已經成長到20.4%了，這個比例成長不容易是因為工研院大部分的經費都投入在前瞻跟生技醫藥的研究，所以在短期之內其實不太容易達成效益。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這會讓人民覺得我的納稅錢用在前瞻特別預算，但是我看不到方向。你們有沒有預期到底到什麼時候會有什麼樣的成長，總不能是無底洞，到最後告訴我錢投入了卻沒有成果，所以我具體要求，你應該有具體策略，強化整個補助計畫後續的執行監督，以及研發成果的落實實用，因為你只有研發，沒有去實用，根本把錢都浪費掉了，也讓研發者很沒有榮耀，而且沒有成效，你們要怎麼樣去調整這個方案呢？"],["何次長晉滄：好，我們就照委員的意思，再設定一個目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去研討方案，多久時間可以告訴我們？"],["何次長晉滄：兩個禮拜內，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩個禮拜告訴我，你不能現在才告訴我說因為科技，所以……","這是前瞻最後一期，到時候你說是前瞻的錢，之後卻沒有前瞻的錢，那先前所投資的不是浪費掉了嗎？百分之十幾，這個比例人家怎樣也聽不進去啊！人民那麼辛苦的納稅錢，我們願意支持，但是要看成效嘛！"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩個禮拜把方案拿出來。","我們看到產發署在最後一期、第5期編列了10.5億左右，包含綠能3.3億、數位建設六億多、人才培育八千多萬，但是我們又看到經濟部統計及財政部關務署進口貿易統計資料，112年國內半導體設備需求是6,858億，它的國產比只有11.2%，雖然比108年到111年略有提升，但是我們發覺在整個比例方面我們還是靠進口，而且有6,858億！這一塊餅這麼大，政府怎麼看待呢？所以我要請教，我們過度仰賴海外的設備跟原料的供給，國產率只占了百分之十幾，尤其現在美國川普上任之後我們也不知道到底會有什麼樣的變化、化學作用，所以大家很緊張。次長，你看到這個比例，你覺得要怎麼辦？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實我們現在也跟國內的半導體業者共同幫忙國內的一些半導體設備跟材料的供應鏈，讓他們能夠提升國產化的自主率，我們有設定目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的前瞻是5期，這是最後一期，到現在給我們的答案，六千多億將近七千億，我們的占比是百分之十一點多，你們還沒有拿出方案來。次長，針對這個議題，我們要怎麼樣去強化整備我們整個半導體的關鍵材料跟設備供應鏈的韌性？這個韌性非常重要，讓我們整個材料設備有自主性跟國產化，這是人民的納稅錢所希望的最重要的精髓，關於你們現在怎麼做，你也把書面資料給本席，好嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間給本席？"],["何次長晉滄：也是兩個禮拜。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩個禮拜。最後一個議題是水災災情跟淹水的問題，與水利署相關，第1到4期「水環境建設─水與安全」已經投入將近五百億的經費，辦理縣市管理河川及區域排水系統整體改善計畫，這個當然很加油，但是我覺得很納悶，在第5期你編列了101億1,000萬，可是我來反推，截至113年6月底你還沒有發包的工程有92項，其中第1到3期裡還有70項治理工程沒有發包，這些是要取消還是怎麼樣呢？還是碰到什麼瓶頸？你們要有怎麼樣機制去管控整個進度？因為水火無情，署長也很努力，但是我們看到你的數字讓我很訝異，跟你的個性不一樣，跟你的行事風格不一樣，怎麼還會有這麼多件沒發包？請說明。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，有一些案件是因為牽涉到用地取得的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請賴署長說明。"],["賴署長建信：第一個，我們第1到4期的執行率到今年年底絕對會超過95%。第二個部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴你了，本席是針對這幾項。"],["賴署長建信：這幾項的部分，因為我們希望提早完工，所以我們是跨年度來核定，有一些沒有發包的工程必須要先取得用地，因為我們是跨年度來分配經費，包括有一些分配到第5期，所以我們也有信心包括第5期的101億都可以執行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長，你這樣講有一點疑慮喔！主計在這邊，本席告訴你的是第1期到第3期，你說你要跨到第5期才要來發包？"],["賴署長建信：第1期到第3期的部分，我們已經執行決算的金額執行率是百分之百，然後第4期的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼會還有70項的治理工程還沒有發包呢？這要放在哪裡發包？"],["賴署長建信：第4期的部分，截至9月，分配數到484億左右，但是我們現在的執行，到9月底已經有到460億左右，到年底的話我們的達成率絕對會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在統計到8份，本席統計的是到6月底以前還有92項，其中第1期到第3期有70項還沒有發包，你現在告訴本席說有的是跨期，要跨到第5期才去發包，那你為什麼要編在第1到3期呢？"],["賴署長建信：不是跨到第5期才發包。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛才這麼說啊！"],["賴署長建信：到年底會發包，然後它使用的經費會跨113年跟114年，即實際工程執行的經費。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還是承認你還有這一些還沒發包，預計到年底才要發包，有這個信心嘛！是不是？"],["賴署長建信：因為我們增核這一些，我們用滾動式的檢討……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就是我的態度啦你的態度因為我的考機會也會開會所以這只是我的態度而已我必須讓考機會決定可是我有我的態度這樣子你有你的態度對那現在大家也在講是說難道就這樣子就了事了嗎部長的部分勒您自己有沒有政治責任認不認為這一件事情應該要有政務官要來下台負責我有政治責任啦你的政治責任是什麼"},{"start":89.98,"end":94.365,"text":"我可以離開啊我可以離開所以你已經有跟院長請辭了嗎你已經有跟院長請辭了嗎因為現在外傳是你跟院長請辭但是現在說是要慰留你啊"},{"start":108.976,"end":123.873,"text":"有這個情形嗎?沒有這樣子的東西我根本還沒有跟院長有任何的聯繫沒有聯繫那也沒有來自院長院方的壓力或是院方的關心沒有沒有沒有但是你說你可以離開"},{"start":124.994,"end":153.053,"text":"這就是我做符合社會期待的責任我負起這個責任所以跟委員您報告我可以離開沒有問題好所以就是等這段事情因為你說你禮拜五會帶這位這位前分署長一起出面那後續國人也要看你負責的態度你要用怎麼樣的一個情形負責嗎但是本席現在要講來我們先看第一頁簡報"},{"start":155.111,"end":180.424,"text":"這到目前為止的官方網站非常諷刺熱忱、創新、感動人盡其才才盡其用結果讓一位同仁離開再來剛剛在我們勞動部的門牌上面被貼了一個便利貼我是公務員我想好好活著部長"},{"start":182.998,"end":193.716,"text":"你看到這樣子的一個便利貼有什麼感想?對不起對不起誰?當然對不起我們這廣大的機關裡面所有的公務員"},{"start":195.9,"end":221.437,"text":"廣大機關的公務員莫名的壓力被籠罩著然後應該是勞工朋友的保護傘勞工朋友的守護者的勞動部竟然發生了這樣霸凌的事件竟然發生了同仁離開的事件然後被人家寫說我是公務員我想好好活著什麼時候我們中華民國公務同仁那麼卑微到我做一份工作"},{"start":222.418,"end":228.331,"text":"到最後我居然是說我要拜託勞動部拜託長官讓我好好活著部長"},{"start":233.724,"end":234.184,"text":"這個是在網路上有想有匿名的"},{"start":259.617,"end":287.338,"text":"報料但是這一個賬號也被很多人講到他講的應該就是我們同一個單位的工作同仁他其中特別講到11月1號禮拜五我們這一位親身離開公務員他被長官推薦、被長官大罵長官要求11月4號禮拜一務必交件我想請教一下我們的調查小組有沒有查出來這個長官是誰這件事情屬不屬實"},{"start":289.124,"end":291.473,"text":"他會不會就是壓垮最後一根稻草然後勒?"},{"start":297.43,"end":321.027,"text":"這長官是誰根據我掌握的資料11月1號禮拜五跟他開會的是副分署長是副分署長要求他11月4號要交接所以這個長官是副分署長我不知道這我沒有這我那有沒有大罵有沒有被推薦有沒有大罵這件事件我們沒有掌這個沒有調查沒有得出有沒有大罵的問題部長怎麼會沒有得出有沒有大罵的問題"},{"start":325.792,"end":349.997,"text":"這個才可能會是關鍵我們今天不管是分署長不管是副分署長好即便你們講是說是副分署長他有沒有可能會是讓這個同仁親身最後的一個狀況在詢問副分署長的時候他有沒有承認他11月1號對當事人大罵嗎他有這樣的行為嗎他沒有講啊可是當天跟他開會的就是他那位長官就是他"},{"start":353.457,"end":374.058,"text":"當天跟這一位同仁開會的11月1號開會好那再來11月3號而且謝芬署長當天11月1號是請假的我們都知道他請假但不能是說他請假就變成說他沒有責任11月3號晚上家人要到辦公室找這一位同仁被保全阻擋沒有辦法進辦公室有沒有這個情況"},{"start":376.195,"end":378.836,"text":"11月4日凌晨已經過12點的52分我再確認一下就是大概50幾分的時候"},{"start":406.686,"end":428.368,"text":"就是11月4號嘛等於是禮拜天已經過到禮拜一也許家人已經聯絡不上他想要來了解因為知道說這一個同仁很盡責的到辦公室加班結果到了現場一樓還被保全阻擋沒有辦法進辦公室那他沒有表達他沒有在現場表達他是他的家人"},{"start":429.76,"end":433.061,"text":"委員那不是勞動部的保全那是中央聯合辦公大樓他們集體請的保全當然我們勞動部有疏失啦就是說"},{"start":458.859,"end":479.604,"text":"這個保全被阻擋那我們沒有及時去跟家屬來聯繫因為當時他沒有通報他們也沒有通報我們好來來來一個一個釐清啊你現在不要不要覺得說你們很委屈啊說實在發生在勞動部我只是請教一下這一個親生如果說依照現在檢察官判斷的話他什麼時候親生"},{"start":485.43,"end":498.778,"text":"家人12禮拜天的晚上禮拜一的清晨來的時候會不會有可能是可以救得到他的如果說讓他看到家人會不會他可能就不會走上這一條不歸路"},{"start":502.332,"end":527.31,"text":"因為是早上11月4號早上7點半有同仁上班的時候才發覺說他已經離開了嘛那換言之你們的記錄到現在你們還講不清楚也不知道檢察官到底是確認說他什麼時候離開是不是我們辦公室裡面有沒有相關的錄影錄影設備也沒有有還是沒有辦公區有沒有相關錄影設備"},{"start":532.257,"end":538.351,"text":"所以換言之你們也沒有辦法掌握到底裡面的情況所以"},{"start":540.724,"end":562.157,"text":"這會不會又是一個可能可以挽回他但到最後沒有辦法的原因的一個機會點其實這件事情我們要講的是說這個同仁有沒有發出求救訊號我覺得有欸從今年的2月就有上百封的陳情書不管說現在講是說有給部長有給相關單位有給民意代表"},{"start":564.602,"end":590.307,"text":"那結果到11月1號又被大罵他可能變成是壓垮最後跟稻草結果11月3號的晚上家人想要去找他又沒有不得其門而入所以11月4號就有憾事發生來再來我時間真的有限但是我覺得這個事情不能這樣子私了請教有沒有這件事情沒有沒有有沒有掉電梯裡面的影像攝影像沒有來下一張"},{"start":594.5,"end":614.671,"text":"他講是說11月4號早上高層指示貨梯不能用所以不能用單架運送死者的遺體那後來電梯不夠大所以只能用單架把它整理上來變成是坐姿的情況離開而且還不准上令蓋上白布"},{"start":615.219,"end":638.261,"text":"沒有這樣子的事部長說沒有來有沒有影像有沒有去看當天的電梯的影像不是委員有沒有去看當天的電梯影像沒有所謂高層下令沒有有沒有去看當天的電梯影像不是當天的電梯影像交出來不是因為現在很多的同仁都講是說那天被要求不能蓋上白布"},{"start":639.403,"end":644.466,"text":"有提醒有走廊的影像能不能調出當天走廊的影像為什麼沒有調到也不見了"},{"start":674.269,"end":687.581,"text":"好 來來來來部長給你們那麼兩三個禮拜時間的調查小組去調了結果你剛剛跟我講沒有先撇清沒有然後來現在告訴我們說其實根本還沒有看到那時候影像那你有什麼底氣說沒有"},{"start":689.787,"end":690.627,"text":"來最後抱歉委員"},{"start":718.513,"end":741.24,"text":"我先講啦你最後你們今天的報告是直接督導的北分署副分署長跟秘書室主任因為他直接督導所以他一併送考記會可是你們之前怎麼寫來下一頁謝分署長管理雖非同仁離開的直接原因你們直接開宗明義幫謝分署長開脫啊然後現在你們把這個鍋甩給誰來下一頁"},{"start":744.448,"end":767.524,"text":"反而是甩軌直接督導資訊小組的北分署副分署長跟秘書室主任你這樣寫的狀況以我對你們公務機關的瞭解到最後這郭氏副分署長跟秘書室主任要背啊因為他是直接督導啊當然你剛剛講是說如果當天11月1號破口大罵的是副分署長的話我也認為他有非常嚴重的責任"},{"start":769.002,"end":769.022,"text":"委員．"},{"start":800.791,"end":825.115,"text":"還有其他委員要詢問但是我剛問的這些問題都是你這一此時此刻你們還回答不清的都是你們的調查報告裡面沒有寫清楚的都是我們看完調查報告之後我們還有產生更多懷疑的禮拜五你們還會再出面我希望禮拜五的時候你們可以把我剛剛講的這些疑點全部都交代清楚不要再有任何遮掩"},{"start":825.734,"end":826.374,"text":"謝謝洪委員 謝謝部長 接續我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1759,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（14時41分）主席，麻煩請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，今天整天大家都在關心這一次發生在勞動部分署的這個霸凌事件，或是同仁輕生事件。我先請教一下，為什麼我們現在看到的好像是擠牙膏式的，一下說這個分署長要降級，一下又說他要停職，到底你們現在的這個懲戒是依照外界判斷，還是依照你們控管，所以才會一段一段的出來是這樣嗎？我想應該不是吧！剛剛休息5分鐘的時候，您在外面是不是有接到電話？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有？所以……"],["何部長佩珊：那是我的決定，就是我的態度。因為考績會也會開會，我必須讓考績會決定，可是我有我的態度。"],["洪委員孟楷：你有你的態度？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在大家也都在講，難道這樣子就了事了嗎？部長的部分呢？您自己有沒有政治責任？認不認為這件事情應該要有政務官下臺負責？"],["何部長佩珊：我有政治責任啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：你的政治責任是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我可以離開。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你已經跟院長請辭了嗎？因為現在外傳你跟院長請辭，但是現在說要慰留你，有這個情形嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有這樣子的東西，我根本還沒有跟院長有任何的聯繫。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有聯繫，也沒有來自院方的壓力或是院方的關心？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是你說你可以離開。"],["何部長佩珊：這就是我做符合社會期待的責任，我負起這個責任，所以跟委員報告，我可以離開，沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你說禮拜五會帶這位前分署長一起出面，後續國人也要看你負責的態度，看你要用什麼樣的方式負責。我們先看第一頁簡報，這是勞動部目前的官方網站，非常諷刺──熱誠、創新、感動、人盡其才、才盡其用，結果讓一位同仁離開；再來，剛剛勞動部的門牌上面被貼了一個便利貼：「我是公務員，我想好好活著」。部長，你看到這樣子的便利貼，有什麼感想？"],["何部長佩珊：對不起！對不起！"],["洪委員孟楷：對不起誰？"],["何部長佩珊：當然對不起我們這廣大的機關裡面所有的公務員。"],["洪委員孟楷：廣大機關的公務員被莫名的壓力被籠罩著。應該是勞工朋友的保護傘、勞工朋友的守護者的勞動部，竟然發生了這樣的霸凌事件，竟然發生了同仁離開的事件，然後被人家寫說「我是公務員，我想好好活著」！什麼時候我們中華民國的公務同仁卑微到做一份工作，到最後居然是要拜託勞動部、拜託長官讓我好好活著？部長，還是要細究一下這一個事件。本席也覺得很遺憾，在國會改革完之後，我們沒有辦法有調查小組，所以很多事情我們是看你們的報告出來，很多的疑點或是很多案件的狀況，我們還是覺得霧裡看花。所以有幾個部分我來直接就教你，請看下一頁。","這個在網路上有講，有匿名的爆料，但是這一個帳號也被很多人講到，它講的應該就是同個單位的工作同仁。其中特別講到，11月1號禮拜五這一位輕生離開的公務員被長官退件、被長官大罵，長官要求11月4號禮拜一務必交件。我想請教一下我們的調查小組有沒有查出這個長官是誰？這件事情屬不屬實？它會不會就是壓垮的最後一根稻草？"],["何部長佩珊：我們的調查小組有去調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後咧？這個長官是誰？"],["何部長佩珊：根據我掌握的資料，11月1號禮拜五跟他開會的是副分署長。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["何部長佩珊：副分署長要求他11月4號要交件。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這個長官是副分署長？"],["何部長佩珊：我不知道，這我沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：那有沒有被退件、有沒有大罵這個事件？"],["何部長佩珊：這個我們沒有掌握。這個經過調查，沒有得出有沒有大罵的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，怎麼會沒有得出有沒有大罵的問題？這個才可能是關鍵！"],["何部長佩珊：因為有去……"],["洪委員孟楷：今天不管是分署長或副分署長，即便你們說是副分署長，他有沒有可能會是讓這個同仁輕生的最後一個狀況？"],["何部長佩珊：請人事處過來。在詢問副分署長的時候，他有沒有承認他11月1號對當事人大罵？他有這樣的行為嗎？"],["姜處長碧琳：沒有。"],["何部長佩珊：他沒有講啊！可是當天跟他開會的就是他，那位長官就是他。"],["洪委員孟楷：當天跟這位同仁開會的……"],["何部長佩珊：11月1號。"],["洪委員孟楷：11月1號開會？"],["何部長佩珊：是，不是謝分署長，而且謝分署長當天11月1號是請假的，根本不在署裡。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們都知道他請假，但不能說他請假就變成他沒有責任。"],["何部長佩珊：當然！"],["洪委員孟楷：11月3號晚上家人要到辦公室找這位同仁，被保全阻擋，沒有辦法進辦公室，有沒有這個情況？有這個情況嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是有的，是因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：點頭？有這個情況？"],["何部長佩珊：這個確實是應該檢討，因為那是行政院聯合辦公大樓，有很多部會在那邊，所以那個保全……"],["洪委員孟楷：家人什麼時候來找他？"],["曾主任筱尹：0052。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時間？"],["曾主任筱尹：對不起！就是11月……凌晨。"],["洪委員孟楷：11月4號凌晨已經過12點的52分？"],["曾主任筱尹：我再確認一下，就是大概五十幾分的時候。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是11月4號嘛！等於是禮拜天已經過到禮拜一，也許家人已經聯絡不上他，想要來了解。因為知道這一個同仁很盡責地到辦公室加班，結果到了現場一樓還被保全阻擋，沒有辦法進辦公室。他沒有在現場表達他是他的家人？我相信應該有。"],["何部長佩珊：對，這個問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說保全不讓他上去，可能因為整個機關的保全或是安危，那保全有沒有最基本的合理的懷疑，至少說：「好，你在這邊看一下。你沒有辦法進去，但我幫你去辦公室看看」？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，那不是勞動部的保全，那是中央聯合辦公大樓他們集體請的保全。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["何部長佩珊：當然我們勞動部有疏失啦！這個保全阻擋，我們沒有及時去跟家屬聯繫，他們也沒有通報我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，來！一個一個釐清。你現在不要覺得你們很委屈，說是發生在勞動部……"],["何部長佩珊：沒有、沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：我只是請教一下，依照現在檢察官的判斷，他是什麼時候輕生？家人在禮拜天的晚上、禮拜一的清晨來的時候，會不會有可能是可以救得到他的？如果讓他看到家人，會不會他可能就不會走上這一條不歸路？因為是11月4號早上7點半，有同仁上班的時候才發覺他已經離開了嘛！換言之，你們的紀錄到現在你們還講不清楚，也不知道檢察官到底確認他是什麼時候離開，是不是？我們辦公室裡面也沒有相關的錄影設備！也沒有。有還是沒有？辦公區有沒有相關錄影設備？"],["曾主任筱尹：走廊。"],["洪委員孟楷：只有走廊？所以換言之，你們也沒有辦法掌握到底裡面的情況如何。這會不會又是一個可能可以挽回他，但到最後沒有辦法的一個機會點？針對這件事情，其實我們要講的是這個同仁有沒有發出求救訊號？我覺得有耶！從今年的2月就有上百封的陳情書，現在是說有給部長、有給相關單位、有給民意代表，結果到11月1號又被大罵，可能變成是壓垮的最後一根稻草。結果11月3號的晚上，家人想要去找他，又不得其門而入，所以11月4號就有憾事發生。","我時間真的有限，但是我覺得這個事情不能這樣子私了。請教有沒有這件事情？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有！"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有調電梯裡面的影像？來，下一張。它說11月4號早上高層指示貨梯不能用，所以不能用擔架運送死者的遺體。後來電梯不夠大，所以只能用擔架把他折立上來，變成是坐姿的情況離開，而且還下令不准蓋上白布。"],["何部長佩珊：沒有這樣子的事。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長說沒有，有沒有影像？有沒有去看當天電梯的影像？"],["何部長佩珊：不是！委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有去看當天的電梯影像？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有所謂高層下令……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有去看當天的電梯影像？當天的電梯影像交出來！因為現在很多的同仁都說那天被要求不能蓋上白布，然後送離開……"],["何部長佩珊：也沒有不能蓋上白布的事。"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：對。委員，我可以跟你解釋……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在看到這樣的講法，所以我們現在講的是說不能再遮掩了，不能再變成勞動部……你剛剛提到有走廊的影像，能不能調出當天走廊的影像？"],["曾主任筱尹：我們有去跟管委會申請，但是沒有調到。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼沒有調到？也不見了？"],["曾主任筱尹：我們會再去跟他確認。"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，給你們兩、三個禮拜的時間，調查小組去調了，結果你剛剛跟我講沒有？先撇清沒有，然後現在告訴我們說其實根本還沒有看到那時候的影像。那你有什麼底氣說沒有？我們現在一件一件事情來談。如果你已經有看過這個影像，而且你也知道確實不是這樣的情況，大可出來說明，大可把影像公布，告訴大家當天確實有尊重死者，死者為大，有蓋上白布。但是你們放任這個新聞已經過兩、三天了，一個影像也拿不出來，那我們怎麼能夠相信你們調查是真的？","你們今天的報告提到直接督導的是北分署副分署長跟秘書室主任，因為他直接督導，所以他一併送考績會。可是你們之前怎麼寫的？「謝分署長管理方式雖非同仁離開的直接原因」，你們直接開宗明義幫謝分署長開脫，然後現在你們把這個鍋甩給誰？反而是甩給直接督導資訊小組的北分署副分署長跟秘書室主任。你這樣寫的狀況，以我對你們公務機關的了解，到最後這個鍋是副分署長跟秘書室主任要揹，因為他是直接督導啊！","當然依你剛剛所講，如果當天11月1號破口大罵的是副分署長的話，我也認為他有非常嚴重的責任。現在我們要追的就是到底為什麼會有這樣的責任跟破口，讓你們可以到兩個禮拜了還說不清楚！然後好像沒有人負責？今天委員講到現在、唸到現在，你以為我們願意嗎？說實在話，我當然希望沒有任何事情發生，同仁都健康平安，但是就已經有同仁離開了，然後你們還這樣子遮遮掩掩，這才是國人沒有辦法接受的嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有其他委員要詢問，但是我剛剛問的這些問題都是此時此刻你們還回答不清的，都是你們的調查報告裡面沒有寫清楚的，都是我們看完調查報告之後還有產生更多懷疑的。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，抱歉！我……"],["洪委員孟楷：禮拜五你們還會再出面……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，很抱歉！這樣好嗎……"],["洪委員孟楷：我希望禮拜五的時候，你們可以把我剛剛講的這些疑點全部都交代清楚，不要再有任何遮掩。"],["何部長佩珊：我們其實只有10天的時間做這個調查報告，非常、非常、非常急迫……"],["洪委員孟楷：10天？部長，你越講可能會越讓大家更……"],["何部長佩珊：當然委員你們所關心的問題我們會再做……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你沒有辦法自圓其說，代表你的時間像……講出來的調查報告就是沒有辦法杜悠悠之口、無法服眾，這才是現在的問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林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董事長"},{"start":15.151,"end":42.21,"text":"委員市長其實我們內政部其實這個在前瞻裏面補助地方蠻多的而且蠻多都是那種基礎建設是但也有很多的建設我感覺這個進度是不是有不如預期沒有進度不如預期我們的進度都有隨時在管控而且滾動式在監討都有九成都在九成以上真的嗎對"},{"start":44.298,"end":70.112,"text":"那你給我警察辦公廳社以及消防廳社在我們新北所有的預算額度然後他們的執行的狀況你給我一份好,我們來整理一下在我們新北的警察辦公廳社跟消防廳社所有的部分我要所有的"},{"start":71.292,"end":73.535,"text":"補助金額跟現在執行的情況。"},{"start":90.273,"end":115.943,"text":"我們有一個提升道路品質計畫,這個人行道我們總共的預算第5期裡面有65億元,它辦理的情況如何?其實它都是延續給地方申請的,所以這個部分其實大部分都已經有案子在排而且大概排出來的額度應該已經都差不多快要滿了"},{"start":118.047,"end":129.638,"text":"我知道這個當然很多是延續性的可是如果從數據上來講我們全國市區人行道普及率110年底是36.6%但"},{"start":134.195,"end":151.345,"text":"一百一十二年年底啊齁,三十八點零四欸,兩個年度啊齁,只增加一點三年。我說明一下好了,因為其實當時第一次在算的時候,大概就是用以舊有可以設人行道的十二米路以上來計算。"},{"start":152.779,"end":166.672,"text":"那後來因為我們因為整個社會的要求所以我們是把這個12米路的標準再往下降也就是說8米以上你只要有可以設的都希望他可以盡量設所以那個分母是變大"},{"start":168.135,"end":187.653,"text":"分母色,也就是說我雖然每年都有在增加但是因為你分母變大了那這是第一個,第二個就是說因為提升道路品質它其實有改善的方式改善的內容很多也包含了這個原有道路破損嚴重必須要重新更換也有所謂的側溝要改善跟人行道改善"},{"start":188.334,"end":210.2,"text":"那所以在人行道的專注的項目或許沒那麼多所以才會有從去年開始有永續提升行人環境的這樣的一個計畫專注在做以人行道跟危險路口改善為主的那當然希望透過這專案的計畫能夠快速的提升人行道的一個比例啦所以慢慢就把它做一個分開來處理是這樣子"},{"start":212.421,"end":221.537,"text":"署長,現在大家都覺得行人的安全重要我們也很重視這一塊,強調這一塊那你既然分母變大的情況之下"},{"start":223.632,"end":242.55,"text":"你給出的數據你應該就可以兩個數據讓大家一清二楚12米以上是多少啊現在已經增加到多少了我們後來增加了8米是多少啊可能8米的你那個基礎又很低啊那可能又增加很快啊你要"},{"start":243.871,"end":245.032,"text":"謝謝張宏祿委員接著我們請謝易富宏委員"},{"start":276.732,"end":277.605,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2570,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（14時50分）請內政部。"],["主席：請內政部董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：次長，其實我們內政部在前瞻裡面補助地方滿多的，而且滿多都是基礎建設，也有很多的建設感覺進度是不是不如預期？"],["董次長建宏：沒有，我們的進度都有隨時在管控，滾動式檢討，都在九成以上。"],["張委員宏陸：真的嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["張委員宏陸：你給我一份警察辦公廳舍以及消防廳舍在我們新北所有的預算額度和執行狀況。"],["董次長建宏：好，我們來整理。"],["張委員宏陸：在我們新北的警察辦公廳舍和消防廳舍，我要所有的補助金額和現在執行的情況，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，沒問題。"],["張委員宏陸：署長都站起來了，我想請問你一下，我們有一個提升道路品質計畫，人行道的部分總共的預算第五期有65億元，它辦理的情況如何？"],["吳署長欣修：其實它都是延續給地方申請的，所以這個部分其實大部分都已經有案子在排了，而且排出來的額度應該都已經差不多快滿了。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道這很多是延續性的，可是如果從數據上來講，全國市區人行道普及率110年底是36.6%，但是112年底是38.04%，2個年度只增加1.3%。"],["吳署長欣修：其實第一次在算的時候，大概是用舊有可以設人行道的12米路以上來計算，後來因為整個社會的要求，所以我們把12米路的標準再往下降，也就是說8米以上只要可以設的，都希望它可以儘量設，所以分母是變大的。也就是說，雖然每年都有增加，但是因為分母變大，這是第一個。第二個，因為提升道路品質改善的方式、改善的內容很多，也包含原有道路破損嚴重必須重新更換，也有側溝要改善和人行道改善，所以專注在人行道的項目或許沒那麼多，才會從去年開始有永續提升行人環境的計畫，專注在做人行道和危險路口改善為主的，希望透過專案的計畫能夠快速提升人行道的比率，慢慢就把它分開來處理。"],["張委員宏陸：現在大家都覺得行人安全重要，我們也很重視、強調這一塊，既然分母變大的情況之下，你給出的數據應該就給兩個數據，讓大家一清二楚啊！"],["吳署長欣修：了解。"],["張委員宏陸：12米以上是多少、現在已經增加到多少，後來增加了8米是多少，可能8米的基礎也很低啊，可能就增加很快，我覺得帳應該是這樣算的吧！這樣大家才看得清楚啊！"],["吳署長欣修：了解，因為後來等於地方報上來可以做的數量又增加了。"],["張委員宏陸：那是一件事，錢花了下去讓人家覺得沒有特別多，所以我會建議你們把它分開來，人家就看得非常清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員。","接著請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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計畫現在國會會在審議但預算通過的話我們會跟屏東縣政府一起來努力"},{"start":199.676,"end":216.883,"text":"那接著我想農業部的胡政司這次我昨天有去我們恆春、後壁湖漁港還有山海漁港看了一下那因為我們現在整個這次風災我們一些漁港的設施受到嚴重的損壞然後包含有一些的消波塊也都有受損"},{"start":217.763,"end":233,"text":"這部分因為會有牽扯到所謂漁業署跟水利署的一個權責問題那包含我們一些的漁港的部分周邊都會牽扯到因為我們兩個有跨部會的一個問題所以有時候一些提案的部分沒辦法做處理那這邊"},{"start":234.656,"end":249.115,"text":"布林委員是否願意來做一個整合?我們趕快把這些漁港的建設還有消波塊的部分能夠來做一個整合來做一個處理。是,報告委員在我們這個職責之內的話我們非常樂意來進行。按照災後的這些相關的手續我們會來協助。"},{"start":251.718,"end":275.107,"text":"這次尤其我們屏東有很多的漁港建設這個已經有安全上的考量這次是不是我們優先請漁業署這邊來做處理?可以可以然後還有這次我們預托颱風有造成一些紅豆的一些災損那這個農業署的副署長也有去看過了那是不是我們可以趕快一併納入來這個讓農民能夠做最後一個農損的一個申請受理?"},{"start":275.447,"end":296.879,"text":"好,沒有問題,我們會請南區分署跟縣政府這邊一起來。這個加快速度啦。對對對,對不起,這一項已經公告,因為我們副署長在這個地方,已經公告下去了,謝謝委員的關心。好,這次最後一個就是針對我們草州有一個冷面包裝廠,那我想這個是我們做一個農產品的一個這個國際行銷的一個很重要的一個板塊。"},{"start":297.879,"end":311.404,"text":"目前我們後續如果要整個完成大概還需要十幾億的經費這個對整個屏東的農產行銷到國內外是一個很重要的基地這部分這次是不是可以請部裡面來協助來做後續的處理"},{"start":312.884,"end":339.267,"text":"可以我們在往後的4年的計畫我們已經提出了行政院如果一同意的話我們會優先把他列進來好那也配合屏東縣政府來我們一起共同這個把屏東的農產能夠做一個最好的一個行銷是謝謝沒有問題好謝謝謝謝謝謝許副會委員謝謝我們剛剛先不是到楊瓊英委員的時候休息但是因為他跟劉建國委員交換了就到劉建國委員那個展孔路委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2540,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（14時44分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部何政次、水利署賴署長及農業部胡政次。"],["主席：請何次長、賴署長和胡次長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：兩位政次和署長午安。屏東縣水資源很豐富，屏東縣有一個大潮州人工湖，第一期的建設完成之後，每一年挹注了5,000萬噸的水到地下的含水層，但是第二期的案子一直評估到現在，本席覺得很可惜，因為第二期的工程完成之後，可以挹注每年1億5,000萬噸的地下水補助量，這對我們南臺灣的水資源是非常重要的水建設。請教經濟部，目前這個案子的進度？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，這個案子我們已經報行政院，目前國發會正在審議當中。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，第二期的經費有包括一些相關的土地徵收和建設，但是這個案子是我們值得投資的重要水資源建設，我想賴署長也非常清楚，主計長這邊是不是願意來支持，因為經費高達27億元，可能經濟部和國發會有一些顧慮，站在主計處的立場，願不願意支持這個案子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是看計畫審議的情形，我們會來協助。"],["徐委員富癸：這要麻煩主計長給我們屏東支持。另外，請教賴署長，上次風災之後，我們要求整個屏東沿海地區海岸韌性的檢視，包含海堤、離岸堤，這部分目前開始啟動了嗎？"],["賴署長建信：是，在啟動了，而且我們部長隨同院長去到現場的時候，都已經有指示要及早完工，包括海堤本身，還包括外面的離岸堤，我們都會來重新檢討，現在我們預定在年底大概會發包。"],["徐委員富癸：年底？"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["徐委員富癸：因為我們原本舊的離岸堤已經有下陷的狀況，還有一些地方必須興建離岸堤，本席希望署長排個時間，我們應該整個屏東沿岸再巡檢一次。"],["賴署長建信：因為屏東是一級海岸防護地區，我們會審慎來因應這個情勢。"],["徐委員富癸：另外一個很重要的議題也是本席在委員會質詢的，就是我們屏東縣有一些抽水站設備非常老舊，能夠抽水的容量也有限，沒辦法應付極端氣候的影響，這部分是不是也請水利署協助，目前提出大概5個站2.5億元的經費，請次長和署長支持一下。"],["賴署長建信：是，我們已經請屏東縣政府做妥善的評估，至於前瞻之後下一期的協助地方政府建設計畫，國發會正在審議，預算通過的話，我們會跟屏東縣政府一起來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：胡政次，我昨天有去恆春後壁湖漁港和山海漁港看了一下，因為這次風災，一些漁港的設施受到嚴重的損壞，包含有一些消波塊受損，因為牽涉到漁業署和水利署的權責，有跨部會的問題，所以有時候一些堤岸的部分沒辦法處理，部裡面是不是願意來整合，趕快把漁港的建設和消波塊的部分來做個整合、處理。"],["胡次長忠一：在我們職責之內，我們非常樂意來進行，按照災後相關的手續，我們會來協助。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其我們屏東有很多的漁港建設已經有安全上的考量，是不是優先請漁業署這邊來處理？"],["胡次長忠一：可以。"],["徐委員富癸：還有這次玉兔颱風造成一些紅豆災損，農糧署的副署長也有去看過了，是不是可以趕快一併納入，讓農民能夠申請災損補助？"],["胡次長忠一：沒問題，我們會請南區分署跟縣政府一起來。"],["徐委員富癸：這個要加快速度。"],["胡次長忠一：這一項已經公告下去了，謝謝委員的關心。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，針對我們潮州有一個冷鏈包裝廠，是農產品國際行銷的重要板塊，後續如果要整個完成大概還需要十幾億元經費，這對整個屏東的農產行銷到國內外是一個很重要的基地，是不是可以請部裡面來協助後續處理？"],["胡次長忠一：可以，我們往後四年的計畫已經提出，行政院同意的話，我們會優先把它列進來。"],["徐委員富癸：也配合屏東縣政府，我們一起共同把屏東的農產做最好的行銷。"],["胡次長忠一：謝謝，沒有問題。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","我們剛剛是宣布到楊瓊瓔委員質詢完休息，因為她跟劉建國委員交換，就到劉建國委員。","請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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：一、邀請相關部會首長就:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ：一、邀請相關部會首長就︰"},{"start":145.947,"end":146.187,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":160.595,"end":183.888,"text":"一直在標榜說要來行銷台灣啤酒但結果因為它才是你們股戶所管的結果呢你的生產成本就比其他國家還高耶包含日本、香港、新加坡、馬來西亞、泰國、緬甸甚至菲律賓、印尼它的成本都比你低所以你這個你們海外行銷的時候你們到海外去你們當然你們的行銷的價格就很難去贏過別人了是不是這樣我們課稅的目的是什麼我們課稅為何會賣牙跟啤酒花的目的是什麼"},{"start":193.262,"end":199.466,"text":"這有關這個目前的這個稅率目前都是加入WTO的時候的約束的一個稅率"},{"start":200.58,"end":225.436,"text":"所以加入WTO的時候有約束說我國要課未烘焙麥芽跟啤酒花的稅率達到7.5%是不是?是,當時這些稅率都是因為加入WTO跟各國談判來的。我們要課這麼高的稅喔?就是別...我們的釀酒商以台啤為例,台灣驗酒公司為例,我今天要進口未烘焙麥芽跟啤酒花,進到台灣這邊要來釀酒,然後我要先課7.5%的稅是這樣嗎?"},{"start":227.615,"end":246.182,"text":"是,如果是進口這些啤酒花的話你只能進口啊,因為台灣沒有啊是那不就表示說我們沒有辦法去扶持我們自己台灣的啤酒產業了嗎對,但目前的稅率是這樣如果業者或者是主管…沒有,業者其實就是你們啦只是業者當台灣業務公司嘛那就是你們啦,其實對不對是"},{"start":250.592,"end":250.872,"text":"韓國瑜議員主席"},{"start":277.351,"end":283.567,"text":"這個是芭比爾這個是百味啤酒我想問一下兩位署長知道這些是哪個國家的品牌嗎知道"},{"start":287.285,"end":288.405,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ​​​114年度),"},{"start":312.932,"end":315.434,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 ​​​114年度．審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":340.914,"end":360.451,"text":"那在這個法律上面有這個平衡稅跟返平竅稅課徵實施辦法之前財政部也講說要請這個業者來提出申訴但是最大的最大的我國唯一能夠符合這個條件的也就是臺灣業種公司啊因為你們是唯一國內啤酒生產量"},{"start":361.632,"end":386.778,"text":"國辦的廠商也是我們整個我國該產業總生產量25%以上唯一的公司就只有臺灣菸酒公司而已也就是財政部所屬的國營事業所以你們什麼時候會鼓勵或是你們甚至是要求臺灣菸酒公司提出相關的申訴這個目前臺灣菸酒公司正在評估因為這個有關於申請反請銷的話是要由業者來提出那他有在評估"},{"start":388.541,"end":414.926,"text":"臺灣研究公司臺灣研究公司有在評估臺灣研究公司的業者是不是等於財政部要提出來這是你們的所屬報告委員凡請交稅業者提出是具有產業代表性的業者這不是由財政部提出是由那個業者這個在我國國內具有產業代表性的業者不就臺灣研究公司了嗎難道還有其他人超過這比例嗎"},{"start":417.714,"end":432.503,"text":"目前臺灣煙酒公司是司法公司所以可以由臺灣煙酒公司來代表提出所以你們會不會鼓勵我們臺灣煙酒公司去提出這個東西它是屬於你們所屬的國營事業的這個狀況下面還是要看他們自己要不要"},{"start":433.7,"end":433.9,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":451.289,"end":472.275,"text":"是,我覺得我們這邊臺酒公司應該會評估市場的整個環境然後再加上去了解對方有沒有一些不當的補貼這些才能作為他未來申請反傾銷的一些依據那這樣的東西他去研議完了以後再做出申請案,謝謝好,組長謝謝,主席謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員接著我們請徐富奎委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2505,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（14時36分）謝謝主席，先請財政部國庫署和關務署署長。"],["主席：請陳署長、彭署長。"],["黃委員健豪：兩位署長好，今天部長沒有過來，我想針對國產和進口酒類的討論，加入WTO之後，近幾年下來我們同時廢止了菸酒的專賣制度，臺灣的酒類進口也是逐年上升，我們看一下近10年的比較，10年前國產的酒類占比還高達67%，當時進口酒類只有33%。10年後的今天，也就是去年，國產酒類占比首次降到50%以下，我想這個對國內業者的衝擊是相對比較大一點。另外，其中影響最大的當然是國庫署所管的臺灣菸酒公司，臺灣菸酒公司在海外的銷售，因為國內占比下降，你們去找海外市場情有可原，也合理，但是海外銷售的成績我看在各國也是逐年下滑，原因在哪裡呢？第一，可能是關稅的問題，在啤酒的製造裡面大概有兩個主要的原料，一個是啤酒花，一個是未烘焙麥芽。請教國庫署署長，國內有沒有大量產啤酒花和未烘焙麥芽的產業需要保護？"],["陳署長柏誠：我們啤酒花的部分應該就是我們臺灣啤酒。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道，我是說我們有沒有農業生產這個部分？我們農業部門有嗎？我們有生產這個東西嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：沒有，都是進口的。"],["黃委員健豪：你看一下為什麼臺灣菸酒公司到亞洲各國行銷會輸給別人？因為價格差很多，除了關稅之外，光是生產成本，你看亞洲各國未烘焙麥芽和啤酒花比我們低的大概就6到8個國家，這些國家生產的啤酒基本上臺灣菸酒公司到國外去競爭不過啊！這是第一件事情。所以我要問一下，你有看到這個問題所在，這件事情我也跟臺灣菸酒公司提過，但是因為它是屬於你們的下屬機關，他們不好意思講，但是從公司經營的角度，如果成本能夠降低的話，他們的價格當然才會有優勢。所以國庫署和關務署有沒有討論過這件事情？你們知道這件事情嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員健豪：你們看到這個數據有沒有很驚訝？發現原來我們自己的臺灣啤酒，一直標榜要行銷臺灣啤酒，它是你們國庫署所管的，但是你的生產成本就比其他國家高，包含日本、香港、新加坡、馬來西亞、泰國、緬甸，甚至菲律賓、印尼，它的成本都比你低，你們到海外行銷的時候，當然你們行銷的價格就很難贏過別人，是不是這樣？我們未烘焙麥芽和啤酒花課稅的目的是什麼？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，有關目前稅率都是加入WTO的時候約束的稅率。"],["黃委員健豪：所以加入WTO的時候有約束我國要課未烘焙麥芽和啤酒花的稅率達到7.5%，是不是？"],["彭署長英偉：是，當時這些稅率都是因為加入WTO跟各國談判來的。"],["黃委員健豪：我們要課這麼高的稅喔！我們的釀酒商以臺灣菸酒公司為例，今天要進口未烘焙麥芽和啤酒花到臺灣來釀酒，然後我要先課7.5%的稅，是這樣嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：是，如果是進口這些啤酒花的話。"],["黃委員健豪：你只能進口啊！因為臺灣沒有啊！那不就表示我們沒有辦法去扶植臺灣的啤酒產業嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：目前的稅率是這樣，如果業者或主管機關……"],["黃委員健豪：業者就是你們，業者是臺灣菸酒公司，其實就是你們啊！對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["黃委員健豪：業者一定有這需求啊！價格如果能夠越低，對於業者來講當然是越有利的方式，這是第一件事情，所以你們目前也不能承諾稅率能不能調降，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：我們再跟國庫署研議看看。"],["黃委員健豪：今天帶了幾瓶啤酒給大家看一下，那是雪山啤酒，這是Bar BEER，這個是百威啤酒。請問兩位署長，你們知道這些是哪些國家的品牌嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：它原產地可能是中國大陸。"],["黃委員健豪：你知道我要問什麼嘛！這個表面上看起來是美國的，這也寫美國知名品牌，這個大家以為是日本的，上面還寫新竹炒米粉，你以為是臺灣的，其實全部made in 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5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},{"id":"157217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab8a536dd88b1b2bd815c44cfb233885207384dc14fd4f58a5ebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"14:35:17 - 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我給你答案 因為我時間不夠一個是112年是113年是200億112年是240億好 這個部分我請邱部長回應我有沒有做醫療院所的健保的點值的補充有沒有維持健保的運作有沒有做點值的補充 有沒有報告委員 去年112年是有補大概將近179億那今年還沒有有就對 今年還沒有好 那我就要請問主計長"},{"start":221.627,"end":221.727,"text":"主席"},{"start":236.736,"end":244.018,"text":"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":261.281,"end":279.239,"text":"你聽到沒有啦我希望沒有啦我聽說的是這樣子啦我覺得讓專業的去做專業的處理你就在裁員預算上處理最後交給衛福部好主席長你可以請回我接下來要請彭部長因為我時間已經剩下我盡量不要佔用別人的時間邱部長你也留步"},{"start":280.44,"end":299.647,"text":"因為接下來我要關心醫療院所的環境問題。前瞻彭部長,前瞻現在撥了2億元用在推動廢污水資源化的管理也好,或者2.73億去改善水資源或污染的設施,用4.42億元來用於減碳跟氣候的治理。"},{"start":304.309,"end":319.42,"text":"我們現在檢探的部分分三個部分一個是直接排放、間接排放還有其他的間接排放那這個部分我請問環境部在這一塊我們協助的衛福部什麼東西"},{"start":320.822,"end":341.995,"text":"是,跟委員報告我們現在跟環境部第一個就是先幫醫院這邊做你只有幫他開了一場會議叫做領航營對不對?是那怎麼幫醫院檢探?沒有做嘛對不對?現在正在做這個深度檢探會等一下等一下你暫停一下今天沒有部長喔?三點區開另外一個會"},{"start":344.534,"end":370.288,"text":"有跟你講嗎?明天還會再來嗎?今天如果講不完,明天就會來。我明天有第二輪嗎?沒有喔?你繼續問,你繼續問,現在繼續問。那您是副部長是不是?我是次長,政務次長。那你可以回應我齁?是。不然我在這邊罵蔣老半天沒有用啊,招惹有意義嗎?沒有,你繼續問齁,我要問清楚。"},{"start":371.001,"end":394.836,"text":"好,你現在環境部要求你公告一個修正排放流水的標準但是我們知道要配合你這個排放流水事實上在醫療院所他為什麼要放他放流水的時候他有放一個有效餘濾他加了濾在裡頭他加了濾的目的就是為了要滅菌對不對?邱部長"},{"start":396.317,"end":396.357,"text":"主席"},{"start":416.522,"end":431.346,"text":"所以他現在醫院醫療院所最大的問題是他沒有足夠的空間沒有足夠的設備他已經穿著西裝沒有辦法去改變太多其他的設施所以我請問你前瞻的預算在這一塊到底能怎麼協助幫助他你要怎麼幫他你有辦法回復我嗎"},{"start":439.697,"end":461.055,"text":"你不是幫他開一場臨航座談會然後其他什麼都不管然後叫他符合你的標準他沒有辦法耶醫院醫療院所就這麼小不要看我們其他幾個醫院他怎麼樣去做這些設備符合你的標準他流水設備他沒辦法改地下水管沒辦法改他就是沒有辦法嘛那要符合你的標準要不然就被你開罰那要不然後面就是製造更多的病菌出來啊這個怎麼解決"},{"start":467.836,"end":495.468,"text":"邱部長你要幫他背嗎?你不要幫他背啊!你不幫他背我後面就找你喔!根本報告齁放流水標準把那個餘率設定為兩個ppm以下是不希望說放流水裡面的餘率太多擺到水裡面會影響水平你這個我都知道意思嘛是那你沒有去想說醫療用水現在持續的狀況是怎麼樣你怎麼樣去輔導他嘛所以我這樣啦具體的結論啦"},{"start":497.219,"end":523.497,"text":"因為你們有這些預算嘛你有水資源改善跟污水設施的改善計畫嘛你跟衛福部好好研究一下這筆經費怎麼樣協助他做改善好 謝謝看要撥多少經費我下一個議題非常謝謝委員對這個議題的關心我們會一起跟環境部一起來努力那結論要告訴我不然我就再回來了好 一定好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":525.281,"end":527.105,"text":"謝謝李延秀委員﹗接著請黃健才委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2451,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（14時27分）謝謝召委，有請教育部部長、主計長、邱泰源部長、環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長、主計長、邱部長、彭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：鄭部長，前瞻實行到現在，因為校舍的安全預算永遠不嫌多，包括地震瞬間引起的狀況很難預料，我想你非常的清楚，我們常講一句話，再怎麼苦也不能苦了我們的孩子，教育其實是最重要的，前瞻實施到現在，對於校舍的改建進度，你自己滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長英耀：老舊校舍的改建、有安全疑慮的……"],["李委員彥秀：用前瞻的預算進行校舍的改建，目前為止，你自己滿不滿意？我們都知道用公務預算一年一年編，其實速度非常慢，各地方政府教育局的預算做校舍的改建、海砂屋的改建、有安全疑慮的改建，速度非常非常慢，因為經費有限。前瞻當時8,800億元的時候，我們都有一個期待，我們希望在這一塊能看到給孩子一個安全的環境，你滿不滿意？就回答我兩個字就好，不要浪費我的時間。"],["鄭部長英耀：所有在前瞻……"],["李委員彥秀：滿不滿意？滿不滿意？滿不滿意？進度滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長英耀：安全上有疑慮的也都掃過一波，全部都做了改善。"],["李委員彥秀：校舍的改建，你與其塗塗抹抹，倒不如正本清源的方法，就是校舍的改建，你滿不滿意？你回答我兩個字嘛！你現在有350億元要做校舍的改建，到115年才開始做，你如果當時第一年就有想法，早就可以開始做，我跟你講幾個數字，全臺灣超過50年以上的校舍有2,200棟，超過30年的有8,300棟，我在這邊只是要提醒部長，與其擦脂抹粉，正本清源的方法其實我們都知道，該改建的其實就是要改建，因為塗塗抹抹幾年之後，過幾年可能又要再塗塗抹抹一次。"],["鄭部長英耀：校舍老舊其實也是傳遞一個學校的歷史文化。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我時間已經到了，我只是提醒你這件事情，因為你115年才要開始，我提醒你後續如果今年有剩下來的預算、前瞻的經費，其實去思考一下、盤點一下，哪些可以先做。"],["鄭部長英耀：提升教育品質是我們要做的，我們跟委員的想法一樣。"],["李委員彥秀：我請邱部長和主計長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長、主計長，我們113年和112年拿了多少經費去撥補健保基金？主計長清楚嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：113年……"],["李委員彥秀：我給你答案，因為我時間不夠，113年是200億元，112年是240億元，這個部分我請邱部長回應我，有沒有做醫療院所健保點值的補充，維持健保的運作？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，去年112年有補了將近79億元，今年還沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：我聽說今年要撥補，主計處一直對於到底要怎麼撥補、用在哪裡，我聽說你一直很有意見，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們沒有意見，我們一直撥補，像我們對衛福部的……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，撥補給台電500億元，今年1,000億元，明年要再撥補1,000億元，你也不對台電到底怎麼運作……就直接撥補給它，你不會有那麼多的意見。我希望你撥補給邱部長這邊，他非常清楚知道到底要撥補哪裡，對於我們健保的環境、點值才是真正有幫助的，不要再給他背後指指點點，我的意思是這樣子。你聽得懂吧！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們沒有指指點點。"],["李委員彥秀：我希望沒有，我聽說的是這樣子，我覺得讓專業的去做專業的處理，你就在財源的預算上處理，最後交給衛福部。","接下來我要關心醫療院所環境的問題，前瞻現在撥了2億元用在推動廢污水的資源化管理也好，或者2.73億元改善水資源或污染設施，用4.42億元用於減碳和氣候的治理。現在減碳分成三個部分，直接排放、間接排放以及其他的間接排放，請問環境部，在這一塊，我們協助了衛福部什麼東西？"],["葉次長俊宏：跟委員報告，我們環境部第一個就是先幫醫院這邊做……"],["李委員彥秀：你只有幫它開了一場會議叫作領航營，對不對？"],["葉次長俊宏：是。"],["李委員彥秀：那怎麼幫醫院減碳？沒有做嘛！對不對？"],["葉次長俊宏：現在正在做深度減碳的……"],["李委員彥秀：你們今天部長沒來？暫停一下，召委，今天沒有部長？"],["主席：他3點去開另外一個會。"],["李委員彥秀：有跟你講嗎？明天還會再來嗎？"],["主席：有，今天如果講不完，明天就會來。"],["李委員彥秀：我明天還有第二輪嗎？沒有喔！"],["主席：你繼續問。"],["李委員彥秀：你是副部長嗎？"],["主席：葉次長。"],["葉次長俊宏：我是政務次長。"],["李委員彥秀：你可以回應我喔！不然我在這邊講了老半天沒有用啊！召委，有意義嗎？"],["主席：你繼續問，問清楚。"],["李委員彥秀：現在環境部公告修正放流水標準，但是我們知道要配合你這個放流水標準，事實上在醫療院所為什麼要放有效餘氯，它加了氯在裡頭，加了氯的目的就是要滅菌，對不對？邱部長，我想你非常清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是因為你現在放流水標準的限制就沒有辦法滅菌，反而醫院是救人的地方，它如果沒有處理好，你現在要求它符合你放流水標準，它沒有辦法加那麼多的氯，反而有可能製造細菌，所以現在醫療院所最大的問題是沒有足夠的空間、足夠的設備，它已經穿著西裝，沒有辦法去改變太多其他的設施，所以我請問你，前瞻的預算在這一塊到底能怎麼協助幫助它？你要怎麼幫它，你有辦法回復我嗎？"],["葉次長俊宏：跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：你不是幫它開一場領航座談會，其他什麼都不管，叫它符合你的標準，它沒有辦法耶！醫療院所就這麼小，你要看其他幾個醫院要怎樣去做這些設備符合你的標準，流水設備沒辦法改，地下水管沒辦法改，它就是沒有辦法嘛！那要符合你的標準，不然就被你開罰，要不然就是後面製造更多的病菌出來，這要怎麼解決？邱部長你要幫它背嗎？你不要幫它背，你去幫它背，我後面就找你喔！"],["葉次長俊宏：跟委員報告，放流水標準把餘氯設定為2ppm以下是不希望放流水裡面的餘氯太多，排到水裡面會影響水中的生物。"],["李委員彥秀：這個我都知道意思，你沒有去想醫療院所現在實際的狀況是怎樣，你怎樣去輔導它嘛！我具體的結論，因為你們有這些預算，你有水資源改善和污水設施的改善計畫，你跟衛福部好好研究一下這筆經費怎樣協助它改善。"],["葉次長俊宏：好，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：看要撥多少經費……"],["邱部長泰源：非常謝謝委員對這個議題的關心，我們會跟環境部一起來努力。"],["李委員彥秀：結論要告訴我，不然我就再回來。"],["邱部長泰源：一定，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員。","接著請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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"請審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":82.378,"end":82.818,"text":"請教次長您的態度"},{"start":103.808,"end":124.166,"text":"發展綠能是國家的政策當然就是目前有一些亂流現在行政院針對打擊違法的部分我們也成立了一個跨部位的平台在法務部、農業部、內政部跟經濟部我們針對一些大型的案場"},{"start":124.907,"end":151.076,"text":"他如果有一些這種跟地方人士的這個部分有一些這種不當的這些違法的這些行為的話我們會做一些查處那另外大概次長你們有沒有跟行政院大家討論大概多久時間你們這個臨時的小組他的你的目標是什麼已經成立了這個小組已經成立了這小組的目的大概會花多久時間去完成你們的任務"},{"start":152.187,"end":180.389,"text":"那我們現在已經成立這個小組了而且成立一個群組那我們會針對一些比較大型的案場那會去關注一下他們的這個進度好沒關係那就拜託次長的部分你們要預期的有預算然後目標、時間那會後再希望說給本席有一個大概你們的大概的目標跟整個時程那次長因為昨天我要質詢部長的時間不夠所以我這邊要跟你公開檢舉一件事情"},{"start":181.109,"end":199.841,"text":"一據審計部的內部資料調查,國產署為了配合國家再生能源的落實以及農地農用的原則現在國土署把我們國家的土地出租給綠能的業者可是綠能的業者居然去跟台電簽"},{"start":201.502,"end":215.068,"text":"我再簡單講,就是國產署出租國有土地給這些民間業者,結果民間業者居然跟台電簽約時間大概是6到10年可是這些綠電業者居然跟台電簽約的時間長達20年"},{"start":223.012,"end":224.093,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":249.235,"end":251.337,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":270.756,"end":293.309,"text":"到底是哪些業者有這些通天的本領來去來去承租這些土地明明租土地的只有6年到10年可是他們居然跟台電簽了20年的約我還要再繼續跟這個次長說明現在這個國產署根本不知道有多少土地這些這個民間的業者跟台電有簽約的變成一個很複雜的三角關係"},{"start":294.89,"end":318.901,"text":"所以我想如果這個問題沒辦法去解決實在是會造成台灣未來整個綠能產業有一個非常大的混亂是不是請次長解釋一下跟我們報告一下就是說他跟國土署這邊有簽6到10年的合約那或許到合約這個初期結束之後他或許還可以再跟這個國土署這邊再申請續約他怎麼續約如果國產署不跟他續約怎麼辦"},{"start":322.738,"end":339.685,"text":"對,那所以就是說,可能到時候會就整個土地使用的狀況,那會來做一個檢討。好,我是不是因為時間的關係,我是不是拜託次長,你是不是可以把這些這麼厲害的業者,他居然有這個能力,土地只簽6到10年的約,可是他有信心,"},{"start":340.505,"end":363.772,"text":"的綠電合約可以簽20年,這些業者到底是有哪些通天的本領來去做這樣的事情?可不可以做統計資料提供給立法院?那未來也請經濟部就這樣子有問題的土地只有簽6年到10年約,可是跟綠能業者卻跟我們的台電簽約竟然20年,這樣時間上的落差可不可以做一個檢討報告?好,是。"},{"start":365.672,"end":366.593,"text":"李憲秀委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2429,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（14時20分）謝謝主席。各位官員、各位委員大家午安，有請經濟部次長。"],["主席：請何次長。","等一下楊瓊瓔委員質詢結束，休息10分鐘。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝次長今天特別出席，請教次長，有關這次前瞻五期的計畫裡面，綠能建設編列了31億5,700萬元，主要是我國未來能源政策就是希望淨零排碳，可是次長，我昨天也有請教經濟部郭部長有關於週刊報導指稱的綠能蟑螂橫行的部分，國外的優質合法廠商在報導中哭訴臺灣的就業環境非常不好而逃走了，說我國的綠能產業環境極不利發展，業者如果不給錢會被卡關，給錢會被關，給錢不給錢都不對。先請教經濟部的想法，你們要這麼多的預算，可是現在綠能的發展的確是有問題，國外的這些業者也告洋狀到歐盟去，歐洲的這些議員到臺灣來都在抱怨不讓專業的來，請教次長你的態度？"],["何次長晉滄：發展綠能是國家的政策，目前有一些亂流，現在行政院針對打擊違法的部分，也成立了一個跨部會的平臺，在法務部、農業部、內政部和經濟部，我們針對一些大型的案場，如果跟地方人士有一些不當的、違法的行為，我們會做一些查處。"],["張委員智倫：次長，你們有沒有跟行政院大家討論大概多久時間這個臨時的小組的目標是什麼？"],["何次長晉滄：這個小組已經成立了。"],["張委員智倫：這個小組的目的大概會花多久時間去完成你們的任務？"],["何次長晉滄：我們現在已經成立這個小組了，而且成立一個群組，我們會針對一些比較大型的案場，去關注它們的進度。"],["張委員智倫：沒關係，拜託次長，你們有預算、目標、時間，會後再給本席你們大概的目標或時程。昨天我質詢部長的時間不夠，所以我在這裡要跟你公開檢舉一件事情，依據審計部的內部資料調查，國產署為了配合國家再生能源的落實以及農地農用的原則，我簡單講，現在國產署把國有土地出租給民間業者，出租土地的時間大概6到10年，可是這些綠電業者居然跟台電簽約的時間長達20年，所以這裡面明顯的時間不相當。我土地出租才6到10年，可是這些綠能業者跟台電簽約卻到20年，我覺得這樣讓人民的觀感非常不好，未來會不會人民租房子也跟房東租2年，結果外面當二房東出租20年，這樣未來可能會發生幾個狀況，第一個，未來如果很多綠能業者時間到了以後，國產署是不是可以跟它解約？這些拆屋還地以後，台電是不是要賠償這些綠電業者相關的經費？這些狀況是審計部內部調查資料，請問經濟部有沒有掌握？到底是哪些業者有這些通天的本領去承租這些土地，明明租土地只有6年到10年，它們居然跟台電簽了20年的合約？我還要再跟次長說明，現在國產署根本不知道有多少土地是民間的業者跟台電有簽約的，變成一個很複雜的三角關係，這個問題如果沒有辦法解決，實在會造成臺灣未來整個綠能產業非常大的混亂，是不是請次長解釋一下？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告一下，它跟國土署有簽6到10年的合約，到合約租期結束之後，它或許還可以跟國土署續約。"],["張委員智倫：它怎麼續約？如果國產署不跟它續約怎麼辦？"],["何次長晉滄：可能到時候會就整個土地使用的狀況來做一個檢討。"],["張委員智倫：因為時間的關係，拜託次長可以把這些這麼厲害的業者，它居然有這個能力土地只簽6到10年約，可是它有信心綠電合約可以簽20年，這些業者到底有哪些通天的本領來做這樣的事情，可不可以統計資料提供給立法院，未來也請經濟部就這樣土地有問題的，土地只有簽6到10年約，可是綠能業者卻跟台電簽20年約，這樣時間上的落差，可不可以做一個檢討報告？"],["何次長晉滄：好，可以。"],["張委員智倫：大概要多久時間？"],["何次長晉滄：1個月。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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這個我們會剛剛講就如果沒有錢在預算沒有的話我們會編列在這個公務預算裡面好 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那我們等一下來往下看那部長我在上個月我們分別辦了兒少運動政策跟適應體育我們其實也很擔心因為我們看到運動部目前的規劃有一個適應體育司那我就很好奇學校裡面因為推動了普特融合那普特融合這個問題就會發生適應體育的事情到底是歸運動部適應體育司運動司還是歸教育部國教署"},{"start":234.11,"end":255.232,"text":"跟委員報告基本上只要是體育教學這一個部分都是教育部那我們往下看會發生什麼問題呢如果都是歸教育部很多校園當中假運動訓練知名的事情我們希望教育部未來要承擔起更重的責任那前兩天也有公務員投書公務員說"},{"start":257.214,"end":281.115,"text":"國教署跟體育署的命運大不同這裡面談到人員的問題、經費的問題、資源的問題也就是說我們來看下一頁目前規劃運動部300人、全民署100人可是未來在我們教育部本部學校體育你要怎麼編制在那個公務員投書裡面就提到如果最後學校的體育變成只有一個少少的名額10個人"},{"start":283.103,"end":304.547,"text":"一個課,因為現在規劃成一個課,時隔要負責全台灣3000多所中小學的學校體育業務,又回到以前那個年代,體育委員會的年代,這樣會有問題也不長。跟我們報告,我們事實上不是一個課,我們是用一個組。我說學校的部分喔,在教育部的國教署,那一個組一直會有多少人?"},{"start":308.479,"end":334.266,"text":"法務委員,現在一個用組的方式來運作它的時候,有組長、副組長、專門委員、科的說法,這樣整個加起來有20多個。20多,來,署長,你當署長很久了,你覺得這個公務員投書我相信你一定有看見,你的幕僚一定有幫你收集,他在講的現象就是學校體育現場的事情如果這麼多,而且加上部長剛承諾適應體育也會在教育部,體育班也會在"},{"start":334.966,"end":336.726,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":362.572,"end":386.929,"text":"工作量超大但是人員超少所以我這邊積極的建議神聖的評估體育班業務跟適應體育應該要保留在教育部希望不要造成第一線分工的困難再來運動部成立的過程當中相關的業務只要歸到國教署的都請國教署積極的規劃相對應的人力資源配置以上我們希望在兩週內可以收到相關報告可以嗎好謝謝請相關單位回覆委員兩週內喔謝謝署長謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":393.683,"end":399.495,"text":"好,來,啊那個,他沒經理喔?你們那個怎麼都沒經理?"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2369,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（14時8分）謝謝主席，有請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長午安。在今天前瞻的這個部分，我想要談一下學校運動設施跟社區化的部分，這個部分目前我們要給予教育部高度的肯定，尤其您在7月份跟全國各縣市教育局討論相關議題的時候，部長，你也做了宣示，全民運動推展的第一步，絕對是要讓校園成為社區運動的新據點。這是很棒的理想，但是現實真的很骨感，骨感的地方來自哪裡呢？就是常常很多時候學校不願意借校園，他們認為有管理的問題，有收費的問題，還有如果不合理的收費，可能也會變成運動社區化推動的一個很大的門檻。","這邊我要提醒部長，其實在教育部裡面，教育部自己有一個「教育部主管學校運動設施設置開放管理及補助辦法」，部長，這個辦法最後一次修正是在107年，也就是到目前為止已經6年了，其實相關的辦法法規執行的狀況跟適當的修正一直都沒有進度，這個部分配合前瞻計畫，我要在這邊友善的提醒部長，我認為這件事情在面對未來運動部的升格，教育部還是要有所承擔，好嗎？謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，我們來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。部長，你知道今天是什麼日子嗎？絕對不是我們在內政委員會選罷法的事情，今天是非常重要的國際兒童人權日，我們現場有非常多大人，應該百分之九十九的人都不知道今天是國際兒童人權日。部長，我今天放的這個照片，是最近這兩天，有一個國小棒球隊教練要求小朋友在馬路上「鴨子走路」，你覺得這是體罰還是訓練？這不僅有交通問題……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想它真的是一個比較不宜的……"],["陳委員培瑜：比較不宜而已嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我簡單來講就是，不能用訓練的……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是在你們教育部的相關法規裡面，體罰學鴨子走路叫做體罰耶，部長，你看那邊。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我的意思是說不能用訓練的名詞來……"],["陳委員培瑜：來美化這個體罰，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：對、對、對。是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。你剛剛那句話就是我要說的，不可以把體罰美化成訓練，但是部長，未來在體育署升格成運動部之後，我們看到目前的規劃是你們可能在打算要把體育班交給運動部，但是我要問，如果現場又出現像這個狀況，學鴨子走路會不會又變成未來教學現場的法外治權？只要出現不當管教，會不會到時候我們的運動部又用舊的思維，跟現場的教練口徑一致，把這個認為是訓練？部長，你怎麼看後續分工的問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這個體育班，事實上，它的教學還是在學校裡邊，包括體育老師這個部分也都是……"],["陳委員培瑜：業務的分工確定會在教育部嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：這個員額也都是在教育部。"],["陳委員培瑜：確定喔？員額也是，好，那我等一下再來跟你討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。但是在未來，他如果有違反教學上的一些倫理規範，那當然學校還是會先召開教評會，然後送……"],["陳委員培瑜：但是你剛剛說主管業務會在教育部，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們等一下來往下看。部長，我在上個月，我們分別辦了兒少運動政策跟適應體育，我們其實也很擔心，因為我們看到運動部目前的規劃有一個適應運動司，那我就很好奇，學校裡面因為推動普特融合，普特融合這個問題就會引發，適應體育的事情到底是歸運動部適應運動司還是歸教育部國教署？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，基本上只要是體育教學這一個部分，都是教育部。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，體育教學都歸教育部，好，那我們來往下看會發生什麼問題呢？如果都是歸教育部，很多校園當中假運動訓練之名的事情，我們希望教育部未來要承擔起更重的責任。前兩天也有公務員投書說國教署跟體育署的命運大不同，這裡面談到人員的問題、經費的問題、資源的問題。也就是說，目前規劃運動部本部300人、全民署100人，可是未來在我們教育部本部，學校體育到底要怎麼編制？在那個公務員的投書裡面就提到，如果最後學校的體育變成只有一個小小的名額10個人一個科，因為現在規劃成一個科，10個人要負責全臺灣三千多所中小學的學校體育業務，又回到以前那個體委會的年代，這樣會有問題耶，部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們事實上不是一個科，我們是用一個組在體育署……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒有，我是說學校的部分喔？在教育部的國教署。"],["鄭部長英耀：學校教育，是。"],["陳委員培瑜：那一個組預計會有多少人？"],["彭署長富源：報告委員，現在用一個組的方式來運作它的時候，有組長、副組長、專門委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：多少人？有多少人？"],["彭署長富源：這樣整個加起來有二十多個。"],["陳委員培瑜：二十多個。來，署長，你當署長很久了，這個公務員投書我相信你一定有看見，你的幕僚一定會幫你收集，他講的現象就是學校體育現場的事情如果這麼多，而且加上部長剛剛承諾，適應體育也會在教育部，體育班也會在教育部，然後學校的球隊這些也都會在教育部，有了這些業務，再加上學校立場的體育運動推動都在教育部，二十幾個這樣可以承擔嗎？目前的體育署就已經有很多狀況沒有辦法解決，我們如何期待未來一個組就可以解決這麼多問題，我認為大大的不宜。我認為人員跟配置的資源都太少，如同那個公務員的投書一樣，未來他們會不會變成工作量超大，但是人員超少？所以我這邊積極的建議，審慎評估體育班業務與適應體育業務應保留於教育部可能性，希望不要造成第一線分工的困難……"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔代）：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：再來，運動部成立的過程當中，相關的業務只要歸到國教署的，都請國教署積極的規劃相對應的人力資源配置。以上兩點建議，我們希望在兩週內可以收到相關的報告，可以嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝，請相關單位回復委員。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：兩週內喔！謝謝署長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。他沒敬禮啊？你們怎麼都沒敬禮？"],["陳委員培瑜：我有敬禮喔！"],["主席：有、有、有，很禮貌。這不是立法院的規矩嗎？來，謝謝。接下來請李柏毅委員，請上臺詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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我們有請何部長"},{"start":19.407,"end":44.567,"text":"部長我今天看了一整天的質詢我覺得非常的傻眼喔你們到現在還在說這件事情是平庸的邪惡但是你們今天呢說這份所謂的檢討報告叫做偶心利邪對方只是利益良善這等同於你們到現在還在包屁還在輕描淡寫甚至說這不算情節最重大我要告訴你你們這樣子才叫做平庸的邪惡"},{"start":45.848,"end":63.506,"text":"再來逼死人的是分署長開記者會的時候道歉的是你跟次長是怎樣分署長是比你們還要大尾嗎今天專案報告我們談霸凌的事情他還是請假要躲到22號那平常他跟員工大小聲的時候怎麼就這麼囂張部長你是不是說謝以榮今天沒有出來是因為他心情不好"},{"start":71.84,"end":90.338,"text":"我沒有這個意思但你是不是說他是因為心情不好所以他沒有來我不是這個意思那你是什麼意思他應該要出來可是我不知道他為什麼沒有出來他應該要出來但你不知道為什麼要出來所以你現在你很氣你也很氣嗎他不應該啦他不應該所以你有沒有叫他出來"},{"start":94.315,"end":109.963,"text":"委員你是指哪一天我說現在啊就這兩天啊記者會還有今天啊這兩天啊事情爆發之後你們開了記者會我沒有看過記者會是當事逼死人的人沒有出來你一個部長一個次長在那邊鞠躬道歉為什麼他人不在為什麼今天他人也不在為什麼要拖到22號才要出來你有沒有叫他出來嘛"},{"start":123.643,"end":133.108,"text":"委員因為因為什麼我想因為調查報告裡面我們的心理諮商室的專家是覺得他的精神狀態是有點"},{"start":135.327,"end":151.463,"text":"因為他精神狀態不宜那我問你喔你今天質詢你就哭那被那些霸凌這麼久的、輕生的他心情好嗎?他能哭嗎?這個謝宜蓉現在說精神不好那那些被霸凌致死的人他們心情好嗎?他們能哭嗎?"},{"start":153.991,"end":180.728,"text":"一條生命就這樣走了他能哭嗎他哭過多少次了所以他才選擇這樣的方式然後你今天告訴我因為覺得評估他精神上可能不是很好就不知道躲到牛年馬月就等著掉職然後你們給我一個八頁的報告就這樣所以你們這些人根本沒有檢討就是麻木不仁我寫你們寫的八頁報告你知道有多矛盾嗎我一個一個念給你聽你們一開始就先說霸凌不是主因"},{"start":181.568,"end":207.511,"text":"然後呢你們再繼續講你們說呢這個所謂的說明明他就講過數位小組同仁曾經主動說要協助那他為了避免連累同仁所以沒有提出加班申請那他的主管呢他的主管知不知道他有加班如果主管知道這個人每天都加班很辛苦了為什麼沒有幫他主動說我要幫他寫加班費"},{"start":208.976,"end":217.486,"text":"沒有申請你們就當沒有這回事了嗎這是一個主管該做的事嗎我自己的助理他沒有跟我申請加班我看到他在加班還是會給他加班費啊部長是什麼"},{"start":224.628,"end":253.206,"text":"是什麼嗎?他當然就是完全做錯的事情而且非常不應該非常不應該你們永遠是這句話但是你們要說這不算是霸凌委員他應該要受到應得的懲罰是那他算不算霸凌嗎?你們報告裡面就說這不是算霸凌我就請問我們的報告有說他是霸凌他是霸凌所以他霸凌所以這個員工你們也認定他是因為受到這個分署長霸凌而致死這是主要的原因是嗎?"},{"start":255.441,"end":279.413,"text":"委員我們的報告有承認他就是霸凌我剛剛問的問題是這個人他是因為長時間的受到了這名分署長的霸凌而選擇親身的你們報告裡面並沒有做這樣子的解釋跟說明沒有歸因我現在問你是不是如此是不是我剛剛說的那樣的陳述是你們調查報告我想一定有受到他霸凌的影響只是影響再來我們要再講一下"},{"start":283.655,"end":312.44,"text":"你們這裡在後面第三頁你寫說問卷回饋當中無從得知關心人甲是否向主管反例人應不足問題是前面資訊小組的其他人就說願意協助他代表很多人都知道這件事啊然後你們說雖有工作時程要求要加重其壓力但又無法證明長官有過度要求之情形這不是完全就是矛盾嗎你們的報告本身就是矛盾啊"},{"start":313.9,"end":327.565,"text":"還要求同仁不要外傳此事我要講一下給大家聽一下那個錄音這件事情事發之後如果他有一絲一毫的覺得自己應該要檢討我覺得今天大家不會這麼憤怒"},{"start":329.375,"end":344.915,"text":"這件事情爆發出來之後他找了他找了他其他的同仁來他說什麼我不允許大家在外面給我說嘴什麼職場霸凌然後他說什麼你知道他說什麼嗎他問大家做得到嗎部長如果我今天這樣問你"},{"start":349.546,"end":360.671,"text":"這個人我問你部長你要下台大家做得到嗎這個人他要停職大家做得到嗎然後你要回答什麼他說要大家回答做得到"},{"start":361.618,"end":388.643,"text":"然後呢 坐在這第一次太小聲了大家做得到嗎做得到這是什麼直銷大會啊事情已經發生了人已經死了這個分署長還在那邊給我開直銷大會大家做得到嗎做得到選舉是不是啊這不是說話大聲而已你們把它裡面寫成說話大聲抱歉這不是說話大聲而已事情發生以後他還把所有人找過來說你們不准對外說這是職場霸凌"},{"start":389.663,"end":404.108,"text":"這什麼樣的人啊你們這是一個什麼樣的部會啊最後我要講什麼如要求上班時間內以外的跑步活動可不可以最後說明一下你們所調查所謂的跑步活動是什麼跑步活動是怎麼跑的"},{"start":405.848,"end":408.369,"text":"我問的是他跑步的行為是怎麼樣的行為怎麼樣的行為你說給我聽是什麼樣的跑步行為"},{"start":433.493,"end":451.413,"text":"跟委員報告我們在訪談那個有跟跟他們的同仁有做過訪談然後也有匿名性那這個訪談是講到這個跑步是在那個上班時間他是為了要維護同仁的健康所以他有這樣平常這樣"},{"start":453.336,"end":464.516,"text":"來我們現在一起維護大家健康現在大家一起去跑步好不好這裡這麼多委員我們要我們維護大家的健康嘛來我們現在委員會不要開了我們現在一起去跑步所以怎麼樣所以"},{"start":465.856,"end":487.138,"text":"所以他的行為已經脫離已經不正常啦脫離現實啦脫離現實好我最後再問一下部長我覺得你剛剛呢你還沒有完全了解狀況你一直告訴我們這報告呕心瀝血我只是提出一個所謂的上班時間以內工作跑步活動是什麼樣的狀況你要別人幫你打"},{"start":488.76,"end":515.584,"text":"這個本來就是本來就是怎麼樣是人事處他們去做反調那你不用了解嗎你是部長發生了這麼大一件事情我們今天從早上質詢到現在我問你他到底犯錯犯在哪裡具體而言你要讓別人幫你回答你自己回答不出來沒有責任嗎這已經不是說那是前朝的事情了這是現在你們調查報告就是寫得非常糟糕的問題最後我問一個問題北分署的離退人數我們看一下PowerPoint"},{"start":516.927,"end":518.889,"text":"我請署長打好嗎?可以"},{"start":541.022,"end":543.827,"text":"根文報告112年北溫署離隊36人113年北溫署離隊45人好111年了"},{"start":555.418,"end":556.239,"text":"111年18人你看111年的時候只離18人112年開始30幾個113年變成40幾個為什麼會直線往上飆升"},{"start":574.096,"end":574.857,"text":"我會負我該負的責任"},{"start":602.304,"end":603.205,"text":"我會負符合社會期待的責任。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1657,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（14時17分）謝謝主席，請何部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，我今天看了一整天的質詢，我覺得非常的傻眼，你們到現在還在說這件事情是「平庸之惡」，但是你們今天說這份所謂的檢討報告叫做「嘔心瀝血」，對方只是立意良善，就等同於你們到現在還在包庇，還在輕描淡寫，甚至說這不算情節最重大。我要告訴你，你們這樣子才叫做平庸的邪惡！再來，逼死人的是分署長，開記者會的時候道歉的是你、是次長，是怎樣？分署長比你們還要大尾嗎？今天專案報告我們談霸凌的事情，他還是請假要躲到22日，那平常他跟員工大小聲的時候，怎麼就這麼囂張？部長，你是不是說謝宜容今天沒有出來是因為他心情不好？"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有這個意思。"],["徐委員巧芯：你是不是說他是因為心情不好所以沒有來？"],["何部長佩珊：我不是這個意思。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你是什麼意思？"],["何部長佩珊：他應該要出來，可是我不知道他為什麼沒有來。"],["徐委員巧芯：他應該要出來，但你不知道他為什麼沒有來，所以你現在很氣？你也很氣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：他不應該啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：他不應該，所以你有沒有叫他出來？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你是指哪一天？"],["徐委員巧芯：我說現在啊，就這兩天啊，記者會還有今天啊！這兩天啊，事情爆發之後你們開了記者會，我沒有看過記者會是逼死人的當事人沒有出來，你一個部長、一個次長在那邊鞠躬道歉。為什麼當時他人不在？為什麼今天他人也不在？為什麼要拖到22日才要出來？你沒有叫他出來嗎？如果你一直不回答的話，主席，我們這個時間……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我想因為調查報告裡面，我們的心理諮商學者專家覺得他的精神狀態有點不宜。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為他精神狀態不宜？我問你哦，你今天來質詢你就哭，那些被霸凌這麼久、輕生的當事者，他的心情好嗎？他能哭嗎？現在謝宜容說精神不好，那那些被霸凌致死的人，他們心情好嗎？他們能哭嗎？一條生命就這樣走了，他能哭嗎？他哭過多少次了他才選擇這樣的方式，然後你今天告訴我，因為覺得評估他精神上可能不是很好，就不知道躲到牛年馬月就等著調職，然後你們給我一個8頁的報告就這樣，所以你們這些人根本沒有檢討，就是麻木不仁。你們寫的8頁報告，你知道有多矛盾嗎？我一個一個唸給你聽。你們一開始就先說霸凌不是主因，然後你們再繼續講，你們說明明他就講過數位小組同仁曾經主動說要協助，他為了避免連累同仁，所以沒有提出加班申請。那他的主管呢？他的主管知不知道他有加班？如果主管知道這個人每天都加班，很辛苦了，為什麼沒有主動的要幫他寫加班費？沒有申請你們就當沒有這回事了嗎？這是一個主管該做的事嗎？我自己的助理沒有跟我申請加班，我看到他在加班還是會給他加班費啊！部長？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：是什麼？是什麼嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：他當然就是完全做錯事情，而且非常不應該。"],["徐委員巧芯：非常不應該，你們永遠是這句話，但是你又說這不算是霸凌。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，他應該要受到應得的懲罰。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，那他算不算霸凌？你們報告裡面就說這不是算霸凌，我就請問……"],["何部長佩珊：我們的報告有說他是霸凌，他是霸凌，他是啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：他霸凌，所以這一個員工，你們也認定他是因為受到分署長霸凌而致死，這是主要的原因是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們的報告有承認他就是霸凌。"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛問的問題是，這個人是因為長時間受到這名分署長的霸凌而選擇輕生的，你們報告裡面並沒有做這樣子的解釋跟說明，沒有歸因，我現在問你是不是如此？是不是我剛剛說的那樣陳述，是你們調查報告……"],["何部長佩珊：我想一定有受到他霸凌的影響啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：只是影響？再來我們要再講一下，在後面第3頁寫問卷回饋當中無從得知關係人甲是否向主管反映人力不足，問題是前面資訊小組的其他人就說願意協助他，代表很多人都知道這件事，然後你們說雖有工作時程要求要加重其壓力，但又無法證明長官有過度要求之情形。這不是完全矛盾嗎？你們的報告本身就是矛盾啊！還要求同仁不要外傳此事。我要講一下，給大家聽一下錄音，這件事情事發之後，如果他有一絲一毫覺得自己應該要檢討，我覺得今天大家不會這麼憤怒，這件事情爆發出來之後，他找了其他的同仁，他還說什麼？他說我不允許大家在外面給我說嘴什麼職場霸凌，然後他說什麼？你知道他說什麼嗎？他問大家做得到嗎？部長，如果我今天這樣問你，我問你，部長你要下台，大家做得到嗎？這個人他要停職，大家做得到嗎？然後你要回答什麼？他說要大家回答做得到。然後說得太小聲了，他又問大家做得到嗎？大家答做得到！這是什麼直銷大會啊？事情已經發生了，人已經死了，這個分署長還在那邊給我開直銷大會，問大家做得到嗎？要大家回答做得到！選舉是不是啊？這不是說話大聲而已，你們裡面把他寫成說話大聲，抱歉！這不是說話大聲而已，事情發生以後，他還把所有人找過來，要他們不准對外說這是職場霸凌！這是什麼樣的人啊？你們這是一個什麼樣的部會啊？","最後我要問的是，什麼如要求上班時間內以外的跑步活動，可不可以最後說明一下你們調查所謂的跑步活動是什麼跑步活動？是怎麼跑的？"],["何部長佩珊：我不清楚。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不清楚？那你告訴我們這是一個嘔心瀝血的調查報告，你現在跟我說不清楚！"],["何部長佩珊：不是的，委員請聽我解釋，他做的事情都是錯的……"],["徐委員巧芯：錯的？那錯在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：是霸凌的行為……"],["徐委員巧芯：你是部長，他錯在哪裡，你難道不用知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然他所謂跑步的行為也已經離譜，而且是非常離譜……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是他跑步的行為是怎麼樣的行為？你說給我聽是什麼樣的跑步行為。"],["姜處長碧琳：跟委員報告，我們有跟他們的同仁做過訪談，然後也有匿名信，在訪談中講到這個跑步是在上班時間，他為了要維護同仁的健康，所以有這樣……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們現在一起維護大家的健康，大家一起去跑步，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：這裡有這麼多委員，為了維護大家的健康，現在委員會不要開了，我們一起去跑步，覺得怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：所以他的行為已經不正常，脫離現實。"],["徐委員巧芯：脫離現實！我最後再問一下，我覺得部長還沒有完全了解狀況，你一直告訴我們這個報告嘔心瀝血，我只是提出所謂的上班時間內的跑步活動是什麼樣的狀況，結果你要別人幫你答！"],["何部長佩珊：這個本來就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：本來就是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是人事處他們去做訪調……"],["徐委員巧芯：你是部長，發生這麼大的事情，你就不用了解嗎？我們今天從早上質詢到現在，我問你他到底犯錯錯在哪裡，請你具體而言，你要別人幫你回答，自己回答不出來，沒有責任嗎？這不是前朝的事情，這是現在的事情，你們的調查報告就是寫得非常糟糕！","最後一個問題，我們看一下PowerPoint，北分署的離退人數81人，請問112年、113年分別離退多少人？我知道112年跟113年共離退81人，分別離退多少人？111年、110年、109年分別離退多少人？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長回答好嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：可以。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，112年北分署離退36人，113年北分署離退45人。"],["徐委員巧芯：111年呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：111年18人。"],["徐委員巧芯：你看111年的時候只離職18人，112年開始三十幾個，113年變成四十幾個，為什麼會直線往上飆升，這不是一兩天的事情，是很多人不斷地在離職。所以110年到112年，從18個人變36個人的時候，你們就應該要注意到這件事情了，不是等人死了，才說：哎呀！不好意思，趕快做一個調查報告。我最後問部長，你會因為這件事情下臺嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我會負我該負的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：你認為你該負的責任是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我想我會負我該負的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：我就問你覺得你應該要負什麼樣的責任？"],["何部長佩珊：我會負符合社會期待的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，知道了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝部長。接續請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","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制約束力因為裡面也提到說如果當事人只有口頭告知沒有提出申訴的話建議機關要幫這個當事人提起申訴也是建議而已是不是這樣子"},{"start":170.092,"end":197.946,"text":"原則上這個我們也都有要求各機關雖然他是一個指導的一個性質但我們也是有要求各機關要落實來處理那就回到剛剛其他委員提到了那這個東西是不是應該把它法制化因為你現在變指引而已啊所以剛剛提到了像比如說今天是因為勞動部是爐主啊所以他的這個分數獎被掉了那教育部就沒事啊這個館長他持續在當他館長啊那這個制度化怎麼產生呢沒有辦法處理耶那再來繼續"},{"start":199.451,"end":211.735,"text":"我剛好手上因為時間比較少我手上有一個陳情案一個地方基層的這個中央單位10月6號的時候這個當事人受到員工丟紙箱恐嚇並咆哮在這個10月7號的時候單位主管確認有此事"},{"start":219.983,"end":238.719,"text":"那一直都沒有處理10月24號的時候這個陳慶仁把這個投訴信函寄到主管的信箱24號寄到之後30號應該都沒有收到這回應從事發到30號已經過三週了都沒有收到回應所以家屬在致電在網上呈報就如同我們的指引一樣往往上向機關首長提出申訴"},{"start":239.56,"end":268.546,"text":"那結果才發現說這個信箱從來都沒有被打開過啊所以才發現說原來這幾天的申訴都沒有意義那終於10月30號打電話去說我有這個陳情案之後11月1號單位主管才開始處理那當然最後處理說也是把那個人調職調到隔壁單位而已所以他們還是遇到我待會一樣會把這個相關案件提供給相關單位給職業單位但是今天為什麼先請整治行政總處跟保訓處還有考試院上來我要問的是說像這種事情"},{"start":269.414,"end":283.986,"text":"他投訴無門了那這怎麼辦如果今天我是一個基層公務人員我投訴我的主管對我實施霸凌結果主管不處理我往上呈報他沒有打那通電話去講說你有沒有收到我的信"},{"start":285.238,"end":312.731,"text":"他從頭到尾都沒有開那個信箱那我想問一下這到底要怎麼處理啊你們要怎麼處理你們要怎麼保障公務員因為你們在你們的報告裡面也寫到說有很多的法令你們可以提供申訴管道你們是這個準司法機關等等的可以來提供申訴的救濟那到底在實務上就算不管是以今天我今天收到的澄清案例來講也好還是今天勞動部發分數長發生的事情也好還是之前海科管的事情也好那表示整個公務人員的申訴霸凌機制是無效的吧"},{"start":314.437,"end":318.075,"text":"三位你要怎麼做成這個怎麼解決這樣的問題"},{"start":319.671,"end":345.938,"text":"因為各機關其實他都會有他的一個申訴管道如果說這個同仁他在服務機關有這樣的情形那他可以跟服務機關來提出申訴我知道提出啦沒有用啊上級機關其實機關主管首長或者上級機關其實他對於這些相關的事項也可以透過指揮監督的方式來就事實的部分來去做瞭解進一步處理"},{"start":348.358,"end":372.484,"text":"我具體再問一次好了就以這個我手上收到的陳情案例為例就好今天他找到主管沒有用的時候就像之前找勞動部他們這個投訴沒有用之後那他到底怎麼辦有人事行政總處有這個流程那保訓處也說自己是這個可以處理那考試院也說可以處理那到底一個基層公務人遇到"},{"start":378.905,"end":401.705,"text":"我想過去性騷擾防治是走了這麼多年現在才有一個製作化那這個霸凌的問題現在變成只是指導原則而已嘛那我今天請大家來你們都來到這邊寫了這麼多報告那我想問啊如果今天以這個犧牲公務人員今天遇到這個事情就好了那他到底要找誰他主管都不處理他怎麼辦呢找明代嗎每次都只能找明代嗎明代那麼多人可以找"},{"start":403.138,"end":417.623,"text":"跟委員報告就是說跟機關提出申訴之後機關依照規定要在30天內要要給他做一個一個處理那如果疫情沒有的話他可以直接跟保訓會提出再申訴是這樣子"},{"start":419.292,"end":447.17,"text":"好,今天時間有限啦,但是我要希望說,我們的人事行政總處也好,考試院也好,或是公務人員這個保障培訓委員會也好,到底這個主管機關如果霸凌事件產生之後,你們的最終救濟管道,除了單位主管,單位主管很顯然在這個我剛剛提出的幾個事件來講,它是失效的,那到底要誰來處理?這是誰能夠提出報告出來?是人事行政總處呢?還是考試院?還是你們各自為政?"},{"start":451.141,"end":466.482,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在公務人員保障法其實還有安慰辦法他都有相關的規定那另外就是說如果是屬於人民懲刑案件的話在人民懲刑案件的處理上面他在相關規定不是人民懲刑就是公務員懲刑"},{"start":468.733,"end":470.995,"text":"這邊講人民其實也包括公務人員因為他跟機關提出陳情這個機關依規定你就是要去做處理"},{"start":488.343,"end":512.909,"text":"那如果對於機關的處理或者回復有不符的話那當然他這個如果是屬於管理措施剛剛陳儒考試院代表所提的如果他對這個管理措施他認為機關處理不符的話他可以有保障法的救濟在保訓會那邊也有相關的救濟規定所以最後的救濟是在保訓會是不是公務人員好 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謝謝主席我想今天發言之前我想先問一個權益問題這權益問題也不光是我而且是這個整個交通委員會整體的一個在立法院交通委員會它本身的一個職權的問題當然不是請主席回答那我再直接請就請問一下今天我們這個桃機桃機公司來的所有夥伴請起立一下原地起立哇 這麼多"},{"start":34.144,"end":57.49,"text":"董事長、總經理、董事長總,後面,後面有嗎?有,好,謝謝,哇,來那麼多,好,請坐下。呃,華航,華航來,好像董總都來嘛,剛剛高總是不是有來?高總,高總還坐那麼後面啊,你還往前坐啊,來三位啊,謝謝。那我們,桃勤咧?今天來幾位?"},{"start":62.578,"end":88.898,"text":"兩位兩位嘛好我就想問一個問題這個在交通委員會我們開會是有一定的秩序不是我的不是我的希望大家遵守如果你的身份是列席官員歡迎你如果你的身份是委員委員秘書歡迎你如果你是交通委員工作人員你必須要在這裡請問一下白桃德先生先請例一下"},{"start":92.057,"end":102.62,"text":"請起立一下你今天來這邊的身份是什麼沒關係你在那邊回應一下就好了不做記錄嘛你今天來這邊的坐在我們交通委員會的身份是什麼你是代表誰你代表什麼你是桃群的但是你剛剛我點到桃群的時候你沒有站起來桃群只來了兩位不包含你"},{"start":118.991,"end":143.904,"text":"桃園有規定今天的服裝是穿運動服到場嗎今天是交通委員會一日遊嗎來玩耍的嗎你是代表董事長來是不是不是那你來幹什麼來總經理我這全問題要講清楚啦到底我們交通委員會沒位委員我們請你們來開會桃園公司你也可以說董事長、總經理誰要來誰不要來那我就請問一下"},{"start":144.983,"end":169.659,"text":"我們交通委員會發函請你們來開會國營事業事實上華航他根本也算半民營的那你們今天來有什麼委屈嗎就是陶晶今天來有什麼委屈就是說我們是不是沒有資格邀你們交通委員會有沒有資格邀請你們有嗎"},{"start":173.871,"end":181.938,"text":"有資格嗎那今天白先生來這邊代表的是桃勤還是代表誰代表他個人"},{"start":183.77,"end":203.588,"text":"報告委員因為我們兩位我到任我們時間比較短我們對這個立法院的這個環境什麼都不是很清楚所以你們今天就來兩位嘛那第三位到底今天他是準備來做什麼的你講他是來幫我們引導這個"},{"start":205.009,"end":205.289,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":230.308,"end":248.713,"text":"職務桃園公司總經理蕭國之另外一位是副總經理劉舉淵另外一位是我們行政處的架子白濤德架子對在我們公司裡面的職務是架子他是架子所以今天架子穿著運動服來這邊一日遊我講真的齁那我今天講今天的重點齁"},{"start":256.728,"end":279.449,"text":"這個 我想部長 部長你知道嗎 我為什麼講權益的問題啊請大家尊重交通委員會啦也尊重自己的身分我可能 下一次我們沒有選上會去做別的事我就不是立委了啦我來這邊幹嘛大家看如果有緣還打個招呼沒有緣的話就掰掰了啦本來就這樣嘛尊重交通委員會也尊重自己嘛本來不是這樣嗎"},{"start":281.931,"end":303.542,"text":"請問一下我們白先生剛剛在後面在助理群團隊講了兩套話精確的話我不太清楚邏輯第一個交通委員會有魯明哲的召委就是憑什麼可以邀請董事長、部長"},{"start":305.387,"end":321.685,"text":"桃園公司是國營事業交通部投資43%華航49%我們可不可以邀請其實我們社會人士都可以邀請啦我們有沒有資格邀請桃園公司的董事長有沒有"},{"start":324.778,"end":344.654,"text":"所以有人可能有疑慮不管是我們有資格或者憑什麼、為什麼在質疑這個問題我們交通委員會的主秘請問一下我們交通委員會到底有沒有這個權利、資格還是我們有問題去可不可以邀請桃園國際機場股份的董事長可不可以"},{"start":346.758,"end":375.338,"text":"你能不能回應一下報告 再再報告一下依照那個我們憲法67條第二項各種委員會 立法院各種委員會得邀請政府人員及社會上有關係人員到會備請所以是沒問題的好 沒問題第二段話我們聽到的更離譜啊所以如果我要堅持的話淘請兩千位員工的工會"},{"start":376.909,"end":404.302,"text":"因為跟董事長關心良好不排除來這邊聲援、抗議耍流氓是吧桃園公司啊桃園公司請問一下你們員工有多少這樣我們以後不敢約你們嚇死我們了你們多少位那我不怕你好來請坐一下黃航黃航你有多少位員工啊"},{"start":406.84,"end":426.465,"text":"好好那是好你請坐坐舒服一點所以我在想今天這個權益問題我就問到這裡你來這裡你已經不是立法院的助理你現在是董事長的特助大家都知道你自己也宣傳了你今天一言一行"},{"start":427.915,"end":443.529,"text":"你 你要傷害到如果你傷害到你的自己的董事長我覺得今天的是咎由自取本來董事長就請假就沒事了吧我有說任何一句話嗎你們還需要在後面在那邊講風涼話在那邊嗆來嗆去嗎好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（12時10分）謝謝主席。今天發言之前，我想先問一個權宜問題，這個權宜問題也不光是我，而且是立法院整個交通委員會本身職權的問題啦！當然不是請主席回答，我直接請問一下，今天從桃機公司來的所有夥伴請起立一下、原地起立。哇！這麼多，有董事長、總經理嘛！後面有嗎？有？好，謝謝。哇！來這麼多，好，請坐下。華航好像董總都有來嘛！剛剛高總是不是有來？高總還坐那麼後面啊？你要往前坐啊！華航來3位啊？謝謝。那桃勤呢？今天來幾位？兩位？兩位嘛！好，我就是想問一個問題：在交通委員會，我們開會有一定的秩序，不是我的，希望大家遵守。如果你的身分是列席官員，歡迎你；如果你的身分是委員、委員秘書，歡迎你；如果你是交委會的工作人員，你必須在這裡。那麼請白陶德先生起立一下，你今天來這邊的身分是什麼？沒關係，你就在那邊回應一下就好了，不作紀錄嘛！你今天來這邊、坐在交通委員會的身分是什麼？你是代表誰？","你是桃勤的？但是我剛剛點到桃勤的時候，你沒有站起來，所以桃勤只來了兩位，不包含你？桃勤有規定今天的服裝是穿運動服到場嗎？今天是交通委員會一日遊嗎？來玩耍的嗎？你是代表董事長來，是不是？不是？那你來幹什麼咧？總經理，我這個權宜問題要講清楚啦！交通委員會每一位委員請你們來開會，桃機公司也可以說董事長、總經理誰要來、誰不要來，那我就請問一下，我們交通委員會發函請你們來開會，國營事業……華航事實上根本也算半民營的啊！那你們今天來有什麼委屈嗎？桃勤今天來有什麼委屈？就是我們是不是沒有資格邀你們？交通委員會有沒有資格邀請你們？"],["蕭總經理國智：當然有。"],["魯委員明哲：有嗎？"],["蕭總經理國智：是，當然有。"],["魯委員明哲：有資格嘛！"],["蕭總經理國智：是。"],["魯委員明哲：那今天白先生來這邊代表的是桃勤，還是代表誰？代表他個人？"],["蕭總經理國智：報告委員，因為桃勤兩位……我到任的時間比較短，對立法院的環境等等都不是很清楚……"],["魯委員明哲：那你們今天只有來兩位嘛！那第三位今天到底是準備來做什麼的？你講！"],["蕭總經理國智：他是來幫我們引導會場的……"],["魯委員明哲：引導？"],["蕭總經理國智：因為我們對立法院並不是很熟悉，怕有些不……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你剛剛講總共幾位？再算一次，桃勤今天來幾位？"],["蕭總經理國智：報告委員，如果含白陶德駕駛在內的話，是3位。"],["魯委員明哲：好，你是桃勤的總經理，另外兩位，你把名稱介紹一下，我是說職務。"],["蕭總經理國智：好，桃勤公司總經理蕭國智，一位是副總經理牛莒淵。"],["魯委員明哲：好。"],["蕭總經理國智：另外一位是我們行政處的駕駛白陶德。"],["魯委員明哲：駕駛？"],["蕭總經理國智：對，他在我們公司裡面的職務是駕駛。"],["魯委員明哲：他是駕駛？"],["蕭總經理國智：是。"],["魯委員明哲：所以今天駕駛穿了運動服來這邊一日遊？我講真的、我講今天的重點啦！部長，你知道嗎？我為什麼講權宜問題啊？請大家尊重交通委員會啦！也尊重自己的身分。我可能算是……如果沒有選上或是去做別的事，反正我就不是立委了啦！那我來這邊幹嘛？如果有緣，大家看到還會打個招呼，如果沒有緣的話就bye-bye了啦！反正就是這樣嘛！尊重交通委員會、也尊重自己嘛！本來不就是這樣嗎？請問一下，白先生剛剛在後面、在助理群團隊講了兩套話，精確的話我不太清楚，我要提第一個，就是交通委員會的魯明哲召委憑什麼可以邀請董事長？部長，桃勤公司是國營事業，交通部投資43%、華航49%，我們可不可以邀請？其實我們對社會人士都可以邀請啦！那我們有沒有資格邀請桃勤的董事長？有沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：可以啊！可以啊！"],["魯委員明哲：有人可能有疑慮，不管是我沒有資格，或者憑什麼、為什麼，質疑這個問題。請問一下交通委員會的主秘，我們交通委員會到底有沒有這個權利、資格，還是我們如果有問題，可不可以邀請桃勤的董事長？可不可以？你能不能回應一下？"],["陳主任秘書玉清：報告一下，依照憲法第六十七條第二項，立法院各種委員會得邀請政府人員及社會上有關係人員到會備詢，所以是沒問題的。"],["魯委員明哲：沒問題，好。","我們聽到的第二段話更離譜啊！他說如果我要堅持的話，桃勤兩千位員工的工會因為跟董事長關係良好，不排除來這邊聲援、抗議。耍流氓是吧？桃機公司啊！桃機公司，請問一下你們的員工有多少？哎喲！這樣的話，以後我們不敢約你們啦！嚇死我們啦！你們的員工有多少位？"],["楊董事長偉甫：不到700位。"],["魯委員明哲：沒有一千？那我們不怕你喔！請坐下。","華航！華航有多少位員工啊？"],["謝董事長世謙：國內超過1萬人。"],["魯委員明哲：好、是，那您請坐、坐舒服一點！","我想今天這個權宜問題我就問到這裡。你來這裡，你已經不是立法院……的助理，你現在是董事長的特助，大家都知道，你自己也宣傳了。你今天的一言一行如果傷害到你自己的董事長，我覺得是咎由自取。本來董事長已經請假就沒事了嘛！我有說任何一句話嗎？你們還需要在後面講風涼話嗆來嗆去嗎？好，就這樣。","現在開始今天的質詢，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["魯委員明哲：請民航局何局長。"],["主席：請何局長備詢。"],["魯委員明哲：跟桃勤蕭總。"],["主席：請桃勤蕭總經理。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：所有航班不管是不是準點、甚至很多情況，在以前都需要很多機構從很多專業領域分析、研究，但我發覺現在真的不用了你知道嗎？想訂個機票，就隨便從一個網站，不管是國內外公司或訂票網站，都會三不五時告訴你，它在追蹤來的班機啊！它會提醒哪一個班機delay，那你就預備一下，因為這個班機也delay，所以在今天，準點率已經是全都錄了，全世界都看得到，不用宣布、報告，這是第一個概念。第二個，針對相關服務品質中的班機準點率，我們看了一下，按照審計部跟你們民航局提供的報告，在112年準點率方面，桃機是75.71%嘛！至於鄰近的機場，香港贏我們一點點，不算贏啦！成田、新加坡樟宜機場大概贏我們2.5%到3%啦！所以差距不大。那麼何局長，你覺得差距大不大？1%代表多少？如果這個母數以起飛的架次計算，112年大概是10萬架次，來回大概是20萬啦！就算一半，大概是10萬架次，少1%大概是1,000架次、2%就是2,000架次，所以這個努力空間真的蠻大的，有人說進幾個小數點真的很重要，局長，你覺得呢？"],["何局長淑萍：是，委員確實……"],["魯委員明哲：你們也是這樣看待嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：對，這個都還有成長的空間、都還有進步的空間。"],["魯委員明哲：部長呢？"],["陳部長世凱：是，當然。如果這樣算起來，2,000架次影響的人數其實相當多，當然還要再進步。"],["魯委員明哲：所以還是要精細，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：這個與考試一樣，念書考到六、七十分比較簡單、考到80分也還可以，但是你要爭取最後的分數，那個邊際效益、那個困難度是非常高的，我可以理解，所以需要更多的努力。但是我們來看看審計報告，待會我要問一下蕭總，就是請教啦！今天就是討論嘛！它說一般延誤的原因，包括來機晚到、飛航管制，其實有蠻多是其他地點、其他國家的因素，所以就不太可控。不過，我們看到排名第四是地勤的作業，搞不好是國外的、搞不好是我們的，也不一定是你的，但是從108年到112年四年之中，我們看到其他部分都努力降低、都多少降低一點點，唯獨發現地勤作業造成延誤成長了10.8%。我們請蕭總說明一下，第一個，審計報告是不是事實？第二個，主要原因是什麼？"],["蕭總經理國智：報告委員，這個部分我們還沒有很清楚的了解，地勤作業方面，原則上，我們都是根據航空公司提供的班機到離時間配合作業，如果是在於班機飛航管制的情況之下，地勤公司對於航班正確的到離時間並不是有非常明確的訊息，我們會把人員留在機邊等候班機的運作，這種情況就會造成部分人員調度的困難，在人員調度困難的情況下，也可能會造成地勤作業的延誤。"],["魯委員明哲：蕭總，首先，第一個，我必須要說，全世界的飛機都在飛，我們自己很多的理由，對於國際觀光客或來去其他國家的國人而言，其實並不重要，他們也沒時間聽這些理由。你是屬於什麼原因？因為上班的人就是這麼少，我們也沒辦法！其實人家會聽不懂。因此，我建議部長與相關單位，正確了解一下，如果這個部分是單獨呈現大幅度成長的趨勢，我覺得是值得推敲研究，提前找出解決之道。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個應該了解原因。"],["魯委員明哲：我們也看到地勤的安全其實相當重要，在108年，也就是五年之前，當時的交通部次長去桃機視察，與當時的桃機董事長郭榮宗，也是前立委，在討論的時候，他說最大的問題就是SOP要遵守，避免這些問題發生。但是我們看到108年對比今年同期間的1到10月，相對於地安的問題，不是延誤，是地安的問題，從7件變成9件，其實幅度差不多、與總體的班機量差不多，但有一些真的是人為的問題，是否有辦法能夠大幅的避免？總經理，你再講一下，好不好？"],["蕭總經理國智：報告委員，最近我們經常針對安全問題在內部開會，也一直強調安全至上，不管是任何原因、不管是班機有延誤、有時間的壓力，一定都要按照安全的SOP進行、按照機場的規定、按照航空公司的規定，我們一直持續加強要求。另外，剛剛也提到我們做了一些安全管理系統，蒐集各式各樣的風險，經過評估分析之後，我們會做成案例在訓練時向同仁進行宣導，要求一定要完全遵守SOP作業程序。"],["魯委員明哲：蕭總，要努力啦！其實有時候飛機在空中因為天候的因素有許多很難控的狀況，人定可能不見得勝得了天，但是在地勤方面可控的因素就比較多一點，我們希望這個部分能夠有效的改善。","剛剛邱委員也提到，7月25日的凱米颱風過了到7月26日，那個深夜，很多的班機delay或是在深夜才回來。我們列出當時delay時間比較久的5個班次，抵達時間大概都是凌晨1點到2點，行李到轉盤的時間，你看，經過162分鐘，有些人真的是等了將近3個小時。針對這種特殊天候，這種調配是不是桃勤比長勤吃虧？我不知道。是不是私人的比較有彈性？我也不清楚。但我還是要講，對於旅客而言，真的不管是誰在處理這個，我在想當天面臨這個問題時的狀況，所以我們特別把你們的勤務表調出來，你可以自己看一下，在整個危機處理的部分，你們可不可以再有一些彈性？","在桃勤主要當然是調整出勤的時間，然而我們也請教了長勤，它除了調整出勤時間之外，還協調休假人員，我覺得你們應該也做了，此外，它還請派遣公司徵調人員出勤。第四，協調非現場作業人員，趕快請其他單位……來支援，感覺它的書面讓我們看到的方法比較多。我們有沒有派遣公司可以強力支援桃勤？我也不清楚。但是你看，剛剛講到包括民航局你們很多的預測，你的早班有預測啊！早班的人力大幅的增加，你的晚班是14點開始，也是大幅的調整，原本平常沒事的時候大概是三十幾人，你也調整到100人。但是隔夜的夜班，你知道嗎？可能是覺得飛機應該沒問題，但是就出了問題，我覺得有些部分是預測的問題。你們平常日的前後九日大概就61人、夜班，發生事情那天你們還是62人，這個預測方面是怎麼回事啊？是他們的預測不準嗎？還是因為勞基法，人要動也動不了？你可以跟它一樣調派遣公司來訓練服務嗎？可不可以啊？"],["蕭總經理國智：報告委員，關於派遣公司的部分，因為目前我們與外面的派遣公司並沒有合約，所以我們沒有辦法請派遣公司臨時調度人員來支援。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，這個部分，譬如人家有彈性工具，也就是說，同樣是飛機delay，真的不是只有華航服務的飛機會delay，大家都一樣遇到颱風嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：長榮服務的國際班機也可能1點到、2點到，但是人家平均1個小時就是比較快一點，這個真的沒有理由啦！真的沒有理由。到底它的兵力不能派遣是因為會影響到勞工權益或是怎麼樣，我不清楚，但是值得去研究，在應變的時候，你要有方法。"],["陳部長世凱：是，如果長勤做得到，桃勤也應該要做得到，也就是說，長勤的應變措施可以做到更有效率，桃勤就應該學習該如何做得更有效率，因為這種天災不是我們能決定什麼時候來、什麼時候不來，未來這種派遣的部分或許可以考慮。"],["魯委員明哲：我想跟蕭總說，謝董，你也不用上來了，因為你們是最大的股東嘛！但是我建議，很多從基層做上來的桃勤夥伴，他們在基層實在是做得很辛苦，但是一到了高層，以前有2個副總，一個是從基層上來的、一個是從你們體系過來的，因為你們是最大的股東，你們要派人，我們也沒話講。現在大概就是一條龍，包括總經理、甚至是副總，都是國外的可能是民航繞一圈回來的，這個部分真的要搭配從基層幹起來的人，我覺得你們一定要調整這個部分，而且讓桃勤這家公司在整個員工升遷管道上是有盼望的，真的不要高層全部包掉，好不好？謝董，你能不能說一下？好像你們現在包括會計、稽核整套都是派你們訓練完的人過去，我覺得這個會打擊士氣。"],["謝董事長世謙：委員，桃勤的部分，事實上，他們是有內升的機制，我們華航這邊只派一個副總在那邊，其實他們那邊還有一個編制可以讓資深員工有機會升上來，並沒有杜絕他們升遷的管道。"],["魯委員明哲：現在總經理、副總經理都是你們的人，對不對？"],["謝董事長世謙：對，是。"],["魯委員明哲：你們派的嘛！"],["謝董事長世謙：是。"],["魯委員明哲：會計、稽核等一些重要職務也都是你們的人，因為總經理也是你們派來的，但是這樣很難為專業說話，你知道嗎？一方面要承包你們所有的cargo或客戶，單價也是與你們談，跟誰談？談的人又是你們派來的總經理，要與你們華航談，坦白講，很多的福利、人力有點超越他們兩個的能力，我希望部長關注這個問題，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["魯委員明哲：希望能夠讓員工的福利及升遷的管道順暢，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我會來了解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委。","下一位登記發言的王鴻薇委員，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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14:08:42","影片長度":"00:05:35","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案(114年度)」（僅詢答）。\n【預算提案截止時間：11月27日（三）中午12時】\n【11月20日及21日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-20","start_time":"2024-11-20T14:03:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T14:08:42+08:00","duration":335,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.25659375,"end":14.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.99909375,"end":15.555968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.24784375,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.74096875,"end":45.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.16221875,"end":24.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.77909375,"end":46.774718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.14596875,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.633468750000006,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.88221875000001,"end":72.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.95784375,"end":64.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.01534375,"end":84.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.69721875,"end":86.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.39721875000001,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.67971875,"end":92.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.97846875,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.51846875000001,"end":129.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.27221875,"end":134.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.25909375,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.41034375,"end":137.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.70971875,"end":139.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.04284375,"end":182.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.11034375,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.61471875,"end":179.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.19221875000002,"end":189.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.57534375,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.27096875,"end":202.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.27784375000002,"end":224.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.37971875000002,"end":239.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.50846875000002,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.07284375,"end":246.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.71346875,"end":274.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.08284375,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.80659375,"end":275.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.03846875,"end":283.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.96971875,"end":284.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.15096875,"end":291.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.20471875000004,"end":297.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.29659375,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.57034375,"end":301.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.97409375,"end":312.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.53909375,"end":319.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.60971875,"end":321.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.51221875000005,"end":324.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.46971875,"end":325.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.66346875,"end":328.30034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.329,"end":14.526,"text":"委員好。"},{"start":15.029,"end":22.734,"text":"副主委好我們前瞻基礎建設計畫執行到現在是第4期總經費是7697億元只是到今天到第3季從112年到今年的113年的9月我們經費達成率是76.89%"},{"start":32.921,"end":40.212,"text":"那國發會之前說預估在年底可以達成96%的目標從10月到12月兩個月要執行20%的預算1470億元真的可以做到嗎?"},{"start":47.225,"end":67.117,"text":"是 應該沒有問題 我想跟委員報告您說的是經費達成率是用已經執行的經費除以全年的預算數但是如果我們看我們的分配數因為有些計畫會前面比較執行比較晚副主委這邊就說你們覺得是沒有問題的那我再強請教另外你達成了96%的這個目標之外有4%大概有308億元這個是哪些計畫會沒有辦法達成"},{"start":73.913,"end":91.547,"text":"因為還沒到年底,我們可能沒辦法直接跟委員報告不過從目前已經執行的幾個建設來看,可能在有關人才或是...所以你是以現在執行的狀況去推估的就對了目前比較低一點的大概是...我們前瞻基礎建設的綠能建設進行公正轉型的關鍵戰略推動計畫期程是從112年到113年底,總預算數是1.98億元"},{"start":99.693,"end":119.923,"text":"但是當今年的10月底累計執行數只有0.95億元累計的執行率是48.09%而113年的預算數1.65億元當10月底執行數也只有0.63億元執行率只有37.89%請問副主委是什麼原因落後我們到年底之前有沒有辦法如期的來完成進度"},{"start":120.583,"end":137.493,"text":"是是委員的確這個目前看起來不理想不過因為有些是跨年度的這些工作也是跨年度的那我們會在年底這個加速來推動那你們有沒有定一個目標到年底我們要有多少的執行率我們當然希望整體我們的執行率能夠達到9成好"},{"start":138.755,"end":162.291,"text":"那大家一起加油在我們國發會的網站上面我們這個執行成果上面有寫著完善公正轉型推動機制是指辦理業務研討會座談會一個場次那我們其他的擴大公民參與及加強社會溝通後持公正轉型政策的這個實證基礎以及增進社會大眾對近年轉型的認知這些我們都沒有辦理"},{"start":162.931,"end":182.307,"text":"我們本來我們的目標是要召開轉型委員會的會議至少兩次而且要公布我們相關的轉型展望報告、辦理公聽會、座談會還有參採建議書至少還有11項等等這一些相關的我們都沒有做為什麼我們會只有召開公正轉型委員會議"},{"start":183.248,"end":197.909,"text":"沒有沒有其實沒有其實剛剛委員提到的這些工作其實我們都在推動那也許是在推動中所以還沒有完成所以沒有放在我們的成果上嗎對應該說一直在進行啦因為這很多都是經常性的我們會會辦理的工作"},{"start":198.49,"end":224.556,"text":"那是不是我們會後也會提供一些我們做的事情給委員參考好那你這個一定要提供給我因為其實你們的這個目標跟你們的成果是有很大幅的差距那所以也讓我們關心我們所有的進展所有的計畫推動的民眾會去擔憂你們這樣理想跟現實的差距這麼大那對於這些反映出來的這些執行面是不是對影響我們未來2050年淨寧碳排這個目標有沒有影響"},{"start":226.097,"end":246.436,"text":"我想這個今年2050的目標其實這個非常大有很多部會大家一直在推動公認轉型只是其中一個策略而已啦那其他的部分我想我們進一步環境部大家一起再積極進一步這樣子啦副主委你會後把你們相關的最新的一些數據跟成果請你一份給我辦公室那這邊我要請教在113年我們與NGO"},{"start":249.939,"end":273.671,"text":"共同推動淨寧公正轉型相關活動委託辦理案。8月5日,絕標A項目與B項目的芭蕉廠商已經撥付第一期款項,B項目兩家在10月28日完成議價。為什麼共同推動淨寧公正轉型活動直到下半年甚至到10月底才能完成發包?"},{"start":276.953,"end":297.214,"text":"這個的確我們會要見討一下也許我們行政作業程序上可能是稍微這個慢了一點所以發報之後你們這樣子的執行你們這樣子的本身的這樣業務你們有辦法把後面的因為已經到年底了是是是我們一定會努力啦不過這個就像剛剛跟委員報告有些計畫是比較跨年度的"},{"start":298.796,"end":299.757,"text":"陳秀寶委員"},{"start":334.538,"end":334.722,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2333,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（14時3分）謝謝主席，請國發會詹副主委。"],["主席：好，請詹副主委。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：副主委好。我們前瞻基礎建設計畫執行到現在是第四期，總經費是7,697億元，實施到今天是第三季，從112年到今年113年的9月，我們的經費達成率是百分之七十六點八九。國發會之前說預估在年底可以達成百分之九十六的目標，從10月到12月兩個月要執行百分之二十的預算1,470億元，真的可以做到嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，應該沒有問題。我跟委員報告，您說的經費達成率是用已經執行的經費除以全年的預算數，但是如果看我們的分配數，因為有些計畫前面執行得比較晚，所以……"],["陳委員秀寳：好。副主委的意思就是說你們覺得是沒有問題的？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，應該可以。"],["陳委員秀寳：那我再想請教，另外，你達成百分之九十六這個目標之外，還有百分之四大概有308億元，這是哪些計畫會沒有辦法達成？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：因為還沒到年底，我們可能沒辦法直接跟委員報告，不過，從目前已經執行的幾個計畫來看，可能在有關人才或者是……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以你們是以現在執行的狀況去推估就對了？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：目前比較低一點的大概是……"],["陳委員秀寳：好。前瞻基礎建設─綠能建設─淨零公正轉型關鍵戰略推動計畫期程是從112年到113年底，總預算數是1.98億元，但是到今年的10月底，累積執行數只有0.95億元，累計執行率是百分之四十八點零九，而113年的預算數1.65億元，到10月底執行數也只有0.63億元，執行率只有百分之三十七點八九。請問副主委，是什麼原因落後？我們到年底之前，有沒有辦法如期的完成進度？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，委員，的確目前看起來不理想，不過因為有些是跨年度的，這些工作有些是跨年度的，我們會在年底加速來推動。"],["陳委員秀寳：那你們有沒有訂一個目標，到年底我們要有多少執行率？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：我們當然希望整體我們的執行率能夠達到九成。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，那大家一起加油。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：在國發會的網站上，我們的執行成果上面有寫「完善公正轉型推動機制」是指辦理業務研討會、座談會1個場次，但其他的包括擴大公民參與及加強社會溝通、厚植公正轉型政策實證基礎以及增進社會大眾對淨零轉型的認知，這些我們都沒有辦理，本來我們的目標是要召開轉型委員會的會議至少2次，而且要公布相關的轉型展望報告、辦理公聽會、座談會，還有參採建議項數至少11項，這一些相關的工作我們都沒有做，為什麼我們會只有召開公正轉型委員會議？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：其實沒有，剛剛委員提到的這些工作其實我們都在推動，那也許……"],["陳委員秀寳：是在推動中，還沒有完成，所以沒有放到我們的成果上嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：對，應該說一直在進行，因為這個很多都是經常性的我們會辦理的工作，是不是我們會後也提供一些我們做的事情給委員參考？"],["陳委員秀寳：好，那你這個一定要提供給我，因為其實你們的目標跟你們的成果有很大幅的差距，所以也讓我們所有關心計畫推動進展的民眾會擔憂，你們理想跟現實的差距這麼大，那執行面所反映出來的這些狀況，對於我們未來2050年淨零碳排這個目標的達成有沒有影響？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：我想2050淨零碳排其實是一個非常大的目標，有很多部會大家一起在推動，公正轉型只是其中一個策略而已，其他的部分，我想我們經濟部、環境部，大家一起再積極努力往這個目標……"],["陳委員秀寳：這樣子，副主委，你會後把你們相關的最新的一些數據跟成果，請你送一份給我辦公室。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，了解，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：這邊我要請教，在「113年與NGO共同推動淨零公正轉型相關活動」委託辦理案，8月5號決標A項目跟B項目有8家廠商已經撥付第一期的款項，那B項目的兩家在10月28號有完成議價，這邊要請教，為什麼這個「共同推動淨零公正轉型活動」直到下半年，甚至到10月底才能完成發包，為什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：這個的確我們會要檢討一下，也許我們行政作業程序上可能是稍微慢了一點。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以發包之後你們這樣子的執行，你們本身這樣的業務，你們有辦法把後面的……因為已經到年底了。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是、是、是，我們一定會努力，不過這個就像剛剛跟委員報告，有些計畫是比較跨年度的。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。我懂副主委你要表達的，因為有些計畫是跨年度的，你現在也沒有辦法很詳細、很確切的告訴我，未來你們訂的目標跟你們能夠執行的成效到底在哪裡？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：我想這幾個一定會……我們希望能夠如期完成。"],["陳委員秀寳：那我現在要求就是說，你們只要有最新的成果、最新的數據，都送一份給我辦公室，這樣可以嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員。","接著請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},{"id":"157206","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157206","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab3e5d13be821d63a91ff0707298ac19837384dc14fd4f58a5c30ece9fadaa79bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"13:56:50 - 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想可能最主要的原因跟招商還有營運模式可能沒有很清楚，解決的方案有哪一些，是不是也可以請教一下經濟部？"],["主席：文化部吧？"],["何次長晉滄：這個應該是文化部。"],["郭委員昱晴：文化部嗎？"],["主席：文化部，對，文化部。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。來，請告訴我一下。"],["李部長遠：我來回答委員。就是剛剛講說有5處，其實有3處已經開始活化，而且開始營運，只剩下2個地方就是大基隆歷史現場計畫之下的漁會正濱大樓跟旭丘，委員說的沒有錯，因為我們要辦理這個東西要跟地方政府一起招商也好，還有營運方式，目前已經朝著招商跟營運方向去做。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以是公私協力來合作，然後用多元的資金來活絡這些所謂的歷史建物，是這樣嗎？"],["李部長遠：對，就是我們最後兩個，而且已經進行到委外營運的過程了。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以目前為止只剩下最後的兩個？"],["李部長遠：對，沒錯。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，了解。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","接著請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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這個是我們疏於做一些注意這樣的一個情況都沒有輔導"},{"start":204.41,"end":209.213,"text":"來又說要法辦告密者從二月份到現在通通不知不覺造成這樣子的難過的事件發生怎麼對得起怎麼對得起你們都不講發現這麼嚴肅跳通的事情也沒有去輔導也沒有去了解什麼原因通通都沒有"},{"start":236.431,"end":243.814,"text":"為什麼?我們是政府耶!政府是人民的表率耶!離譜自己,不知不覺,真的不知不覺,麻木不忍!"},{"start":258.68,"end":267.502,"text":"哪有一個勞工的靠山勞動部竟然要由外圍來讓你知道事情怎麼可能會如此這個政府出了什麼問題你也不講誰指示你生發現這麼嚴肅的過程也沒有輔導"},{"start":284.707,"end":289.871,"text":"我們自己勞動部一天到晚說我是勞工的保障者你自己帶頭當慣老闆而且還麻木不仁怎麼問怎麼問從早上問到現在沒有方向怎麼問沒有內容沒有過程所以我請問"},{"start":314.81,"end":339.307,"text":"我們執行職務遭受不法侵害這個預防的質疑這也是我們自己定的也是勞動部自己定的性騷擾大家發覺社會面向這有嚴肅的議題了不斷的公聽會不斷的討論大家不斷的提案不分藍綠白大家努力來去解決這個問題性騷擾防治法通過"},{"start":343.737,"end":370.99,"text":"至少它有一個嚇阻作用會不會將執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的內容將職場霸凌的部分提升到法的位階會不會事情經過了那麼久你們有沒有一項可以告訴民眾告訴我們的勞工可以怎樣讓我們的勞工來放心你至少要做這個工作啊部長"},{"start":372.046,"end":392.886,"text":"報告委員我是財主署長容我來說這簡單的回答我們現在依照職場霸凌法第6條第2項確實有職場不法其他預防的一些明確的條文規定那我們在事宜性質也訂了一個指引所以早上部長有跟其他委員做一些口頭的回答說我們這個指引的法效性在做強化這部分我們會做後面這個職場法修法的做法"},{"start":394.677,"end":408.442,"text":"我們現在這個治安法的預告應該是在預告版本的時候把這個條文一起納出來討論應該是在下個會期我們希望治安法這個修法包括這不法侵害的強化性的條文在下個會期能夠到立法院來做請委員來跟我們做一些質詢"},{"start":412.605,"end":427.94,"text":"已經碰到這麼嚴肅的議題我們立法要有經過預告程序然後到行政院去審核再會到送到那個立法院來做審查那你就明白讓他們在整個過程你們已經有這個指引你們有沒有有依照這個指引來輔導這個無信"},{"start":429.562,"end":429.882,"text":"每一個社會層面層層相扣"},{"start":448.74,"end":474.747,"text":"所以你現在給本席回答的也就是你認為必須要將執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的部分必須要位階提高拉到法的一個層次而且去明定之而且他的整個強化整個實際的救濟管道讓他非常的明確而不是投訴無門由外圍來包圍內部跟委員報告是不是如此請告訴本席方向是不是如此"},{"start":475.467,"end":495.313,"text":"報告委員現在目前勞工如果在工作職場上面受到他們職場裡面的霸凌依照我們的辦法規定他是當然是內部的僱主在處理預防的程序來做處置如果沒有處置被我們勞檢機構去查到之後通知改善不改善我們現在法系就有罰3到15萬這樣子的罰效性你請委是部長"},{"start":496.909,"end":524.955,"text":"我們來討論一個實質問題剛剛你所屬的主管所講的我們有什麼法有什麼指引但是我說的麻木不仁都沒有做造成今天的憾事你心裡作何感想您告訴我們說這一位人員禮拜五你要公佈他要到哪個單位去對不對"},{"start":526.744,"end":550.114,"text":"是不是?是不是?委員,我會馬上對他作出處分。你說什麼?我會馬上對他作出處分。不是,你早上有回答嗎?我們在看啊。你說你會在禮拜五的時候22號去公佈,是嗎?他要到哪個單位?是不是如此?我想會比禮拜五更早。"},{"start":551.714,"end":565.419,"text":"會比禮拜五更早好 不管這個時間因為早上你的回答是禮拜五所以本席也要預防性的告訴你當他到哪一個單位會不會製造另一個單位的恐慌會不會你要怎麼處理你要如何怎樣去心理諮商大家會不會有另外一個轉移戰場的一個恐慌會不會不是把他丟到哪一個單位就沒事啊"},{"start":580.506,"end":606.168,"text":"部長你沒想到這一點當然當然那你怎麼做你說未必禮拜五今天禮拜三明天禮拜四你原本在早上說禮拜五公佈那你有做本席剛剛所說的嗎我想委員會也都做出建議的處分方式委員會做出建議的處分你是部長本席要請教當他到任何一個單位那會不會製造另外一個單位的一個恐慌"},{"start":609.399,"end":631.872,"text":"你怎麼預防?你怎麼安撫?你怎麼心理智商?你怎麼做?不要再製造另外一個恐慌的這個職場。要怎麼做?要怎麼做?委員我會對他做出停止的處分。你會對他做出停止的處分?是。什麼時候?"},{"start":634.312,"end":634.412,"text":"主席"},{"start":655.845,"end":656.005,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1574,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時57分）主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長跟署長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，大家都是沉痛的心情，但是我們還是要實質討論。一個政府應該是先知先覺，當有了事情是有知有覺，但是我現在看到的是沒有先知先覺，甚至也沒有有知有覺，現在是不知不覺。從早上回答到現在，首先請問在一個單位上任一年半，已經有81個人離職，其中有17個主管，難道你們的部門都沒發覺嗎？17個主管耶，都沒發覺嗎？為什麼？我們以往說勞動部是勞工的靠山，對不對？勞動部是勞工的靠山，對不對？勞動部是勞工的靠山，對不對？那現在出現什麼？勞動部帶頭當慣老闆！整個的過程發生到現在，非但沒有依法，也沒有防範，也沒有處置，怎麼辦？也沒有維護，所以本席在這邊請教第一個問題，這個人到底是誰升的？這麼樣破格到底是誰升的？"],["何部長佩珊：因為那是在我上任前的事情，我真的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長，誰升的？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，那個是在我任內。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，是你自己升的嗎？你背後誰叫你升的？"],["蔡署長孟良：我任內……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教你！"],["蔡署長孟良：這個要呈報到本部。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！誰叫你升的？你要不要講出來？難道你自己要吞下？誰叫你升的？你要不要講？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要不要講？要不要講？你要講是誰指示你升的嘛，對不對？誰指示你升的？署長！你不要自己吞了啦，誰指示你升的？有沒有人指示你升？你呈報到部裡頭，當然要呈報到部裡頭啊，誰指示你升的？我們現在解決問題、還原真相，誰指示你升？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這個沒有指示升遷，這是因為整個考量之後，依照程序呈報。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長，你有guts也好，你不講就你自己吞了。我們繼續來討論，81個人離職，在這樣的情況之下，其中這一年半，你們有沒有輔導？有沒有？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這是我們疏於注意這樣的情況。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都沒有輔導！來，又說要法辦告密者，從2月份到現在，完全不知不覺的造成這樣讓人難過的事件發生，怎麼對得起？你們都不講，發現這麼嚴肅的事情，也沒有去輔導，也沒有去瞭解什麼原因，通通都沒有。為什麼？我們是政府，政府是人民的表率耶！離譜至極！不知不覺，真的不知不覺，麻木不仁！一個勞工的靠山勞動部竟然要由外圍來讓你知道事情，怎麼可能會如此？這個政府出了什麼問題？你也不講誰指示你升，發現這麼嚴肅的過程也沒有輔導，勞動部一天到晚說是勞工的保障者，你自己帶頭當慣老闆，而且還麻木不仁，怎麼問？從早上問到現在沒有方向，怎麼問？沒有內容，沒有過程。","本席要請問，執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引也是勞動部自己訂定的，像是性騷擾，大家發覺在社會面向有這樣嚴肅的議題，所以不斷的有公聽會，不斷的討論，大家不斷的提案，不分藍綠白，大家努力去解決這個問題，性騷擾防治法通過了，至少有一個嚇阻作用，所以可不可以用執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的內容，將職場霸凌的部分提升到法的位階？會不會這樣？事情經過了那麼久，你們有沒有一項可以告訴民眾，告訴我們的勞工，可以怎樣讓勞工放心，你至少要做這個工作啊，部長！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我是職安署署長，容我來簡單的回答。我們現在依照職安法第六條第二項確實有一些職場不法預防的明確條文規定，我們最近也訂了一個指引，所以早上部長有跟其他委員做一些口頭的回答，有關強化指引的法效性這部分，我們會在做職安法的修法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久拿出來？"],["鄒署長子廉：我們現在職安法的預告，應該是在預告版本的時候把這個條文一起納進來討論，應該是在下個會期，我們希望職安法的修法包括不法侵害的強化性條文，在下個會期能夠送到立法院請委員跟我們做一些指教。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：暈倒！已經碰到這麼嚴肅的議題……"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們立法要經過預告程序……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然！"],["鄒署長子廉：然後報到行政院去審核，再送到立法院審查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那就平白在整個過程裡，你們已經有這個指引，你們有沒有依照這個指引來輔導這個吳姓職員？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，這是兩個層次，吳姓人員是適用公務員相關辦法的規定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然！"],["鄒署長子廉：一個是我這個職安法的規定，剛才委員垂詢的是在職安法的體系裡面有關法效性的拉高，我們會立刻來做法制上的處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一個，每一個社會層面層層相扣，所以你現在給本席回答的也就是你認為執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的部分必須要提高位階，拉高到法的層次，而且去明定之，而且要讓整個實際的救濟管道非常的明確，而不是投訴無門，由外圍來包圍內部。"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，現在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是如此？請告訴本席，方向是不是如此？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，目前勞工如果在工作職場上受到職場裡面的霸凌，依照我們的辦法規定，當然是內部的雇主要處理，以預防的程序來處置，如果沒有處置被我們勞檢機構查到之後，通知改善而不改善，現在就有罰3到15萬這樣的法效性。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你請回。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們來討論一個實質問題。剛剛你所屬的主管所講的我們有什麼法、有什麼指引，但是我說的是麻木不仁都沒有做，造成今天的憾事，你心裡做何感想？您告訴我們，禮拜五要公布這位人員要到哪個單位去，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我會馬上對他做出處分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我會馬上對他做出處分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是，你早上有回答，你說你會在22日禮拜五公布他要到哪個單位，是不是如此？"],["何部長佩珊：我想會比禮拜五更早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，不管這個時間，因為早上你的回答是禮拜五，所以本席也要預防性的告訴你，當他到哪一個單位會不會製造另一個單位的恐慌？會不會？你要怎麼處理？你要怎樣去心理諮商，大家會不會有另外一個轉移戰場的恐慌？不是把他丟到哪一個單位就沒事了。部長，你有沒有想到這一點？"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你怎麼做？你說會比禮拜五更早，今天禮拜三，明天禮拜四，你原本在早上是說禮拜五要公布。"],["何部長佩珊：我想委員會也都做出建議的處分方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：委員會做出建議的處分，你是部長，本席要請教，當他到任何一個單位，那會不會製造另外一個單位的恐慌？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你既然說當然，你怎麼做？你怎麼預防？你怎麼安撫？你怎麼做心理諮商？你有沒有做？不要再製造另外一個職場的恐慌，你要怎麼做？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我會對他做出停職的處分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會對他做出停職的處分？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候？"],["何部長佩珊：在最快的時間內。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最快的時間，所以你早上講22號這個禮拜五要把他調到其他單位，這個是不成立了？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預計要做停職的處分，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是在停職的當中，我們還是要把整個案件釐清楚，還原真相。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們不希望再有這種憾事發生，那剛剛所說的，該當位階要提升的務必要加強腳步，勞動部是勞工的靠山，我不希望竟然是勞動部帶頭做慣老闆，這個是離譜至極！"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝委員，謝謝部長。","接續請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157203","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157203","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eaba5c67f4635368c2415c44cfb23388520d632f63170caf1dfa913c6d79a6ea1625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"13:51:43 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那再來我要討論的是我們的前瞻先看一下第4期的成效因為省基部有一個報告其實前瞻大部分的執行率是不錯其中像軌道建設甚至超過百分之百很多也在九成以上但是我看到幾項單項的項目的執行率很差所以我必須要提出來想要釐清第一個是勞動部我們有一筆整修職業訓練中心你的執行率是零"},{"start":159.659,"end":175.18,"text":"這筆預算雖然不大一千四百萬請教一下是發生什麼問題是跟委員報告這筆預算是我們配合那個地方的勞工的相關中心的內政補強那是補助新竹市政府那今年3月以後呢新竹市政府"},{"start":176,"end":177.901,"text":"公告目前進入評選階段,也有兩家的廠商來投標,預計11月份會決標。"},{"start":191.465,"end":191.805,"text":"請問發生什麼事情?"},{"start":208.906,"end":228.083,"text":"是,跟委員報告那這一部分國防會主要是雙語計畫啦那因為本來有規劃是有要做行政法人但現在因為政策上雙語法人中心對,行政法人是那因為這部分的預算我們政策上有在做檢討所以暫緩執行可能因為主要是受到這個影響"},{"start":229.204,"end":251.572,"text":"好,這個因為你們給審計部的報告齁我要跟你講,你們寫的是錯的你們說齁,因為還沒有經過立法院的審議齁但其實你們法案上會期有送,這會期沒送啊是是是所以理由不在這邊所以請你們要就是務實的來進行檢討啦因為大部分其他執行成效不錯最後我要討論的是因為我非常的支持國發會做地方創生計畫也在我們前瞻當中現在我們前瞻要繼續做3.0的地方創生嘛對不對對所以明年有沒有變預算"},{"start":259.055,"end":262.597,"text":"臺北市臺北市臺北市臺北市臺北市臺北市臺北市"},{"start":284.14,"end":299.779,"text":"因為有人可能會說地方創生可能都會區比較不用不是這樣子以六都來看公視地方創生計畫新北市有11件高雄市有10件來請教一下國發會有沒有去了解過臺北市政府發生什麼問題啊是都沒有來申請還是跟你們申請你們審查沒過"},{"start":300.799,"end":325.089,"text":"主要是他比較沒有來申請比較沒有來申請那這個我要請副主委幫我去注意因為我的選區在臺北市中正萬華區我們萬華區是在臺北裡面都會區也非常需要地方創生的一個區域我們地方有很多優秀青年團體他們也曾經去投過國發會青年培力工作站的這個案件那他們告訴我說其實都有需求"},{"start":325.529,"end":348.607,"text":"但是有時候地方政府不讓他們提案對民間團體來講他們束手無策所以我希望你們要去來衡量都會區也需要地方創生尤其是在台北市每個區域的發展未必均衡所以請你們去來跟地方政府好好討論一下希望我們的地方創生是真的可以落實到我們的社區基層當中好嗎好 謝謝委員我們一會來處理好 謝謝主席來兩位請回好 謝謝吳佩儀委員就請一位請委員"},{"start":356.833,"end":356.853,"text":"議員會議結束"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2208,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（13時44分）謝謝主席，我請勞動部次長、國發會副主委。"],["主席：請勞動部陳次長、國發會詹副主委。"],["陳次長明仁：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。今天進行前瞻基礎建設計畫第四期成效跟第五期預算的詢答，在進入主題之前，我想先請教勞動部次長，有勞動部基層同仁因為遭到這位分署長──謝宜容分署長的霸凌輕生，這件事情引發社會各界譁然，勞動部在後續的處置上，我想也非常之不妥，稍早部長已經承諾重啟調查。那我首先要從幾個層面提醒次長，第一個，在過程當中，從分署長案到蔡孟良署長案調查延宕，有沒有包庇之情事？在重啟後的調查當中務必把它釐清楚，包括有沒有曾經獲報而未處置的。","再來，在你們之前的公告當中，勞發署的蔡孟良署長說他自請最嚴厲處分，叫做「送考績會」，那我請教次長，如果分署長送考績會，是由誰評量？是不是由署長評量？「自請最嚴厲處分」叫做送懲戒啊！次長，最嚴厲處分是「送考績會」，這是笑話！我在這邊要再次提醒，既然要重啟調查，當中有沒有包庇之情事務必釐清。再來，你們釐清楚責任之後，該送懲戒就要送懲戒，好不好？"],["陳次長明仁：謝謝委員指教。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。","再來我要討論的是前瞻計畫，先看一下第四期的成效。審計部有一份報告，內容指出前瞻計畫其實大部分執行率不錯，其中像是軌道建設甚至超過100%，很多項目也在9成以上。但是我看到幾個單項項目執行率很差，所以必須提出來、想要釐清。第一是勞動部有一筆整修職業訓練中心預算執行率是零啊！這筆預算雖然不大──1,400萬元，但我要請教一下，這是發生什麼問題？"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，這筆預算是我們配合地方勞工相關中心的耐震補強，那一筆是補助新竹市政府。但今年3月以後，新竹市政府開相關標案陸續流標了6次，我們協助他們針對預算和工期重新調整之後已經重新再作公告，目前進入評選階段，也有兩家廠商投標，預計11月份會決標。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以待新竹市政府發包完成、預算撥補之後，預算執行就會進行下去？"],["陳次長明仁：是，就會辦理。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這點我反而覺得事小，我另外要請教的是國發會。你們有一項人才培育促進經費，執行率只有17%，連五分之一都不到，請問發生什麼事情？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：跟委員報告，在這部分，國發會做的主要是雙語計畫啦！依照本來的規劃，要作行政法人，但現在因為政策上……"],["吳委員沛憶：雙語發展中心？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：對，是行政法人。但這部分預算因為政策在檢討，所以暫緩執行，主要是受到這件事的影響。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。關於你們給審計部的報告，我要跟你講，你們寫的是錯的。你們說因為還沒有經過立法院的審議，其實你們的法案上會期有送，這個會期沒送啊！所以理由不在這邊，請你們要務實地進行檢討啦！因為在其他方面，大部分執行成效不錯。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：了解。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後我要討論的是，我非常支持國發會做地方創生計畫……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：這項計畫也在前瞻計畫當中。而依照前瞻計畫，現在要繼續做3.0的地方創生嘛！對不對？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以明年有沒有編預算？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：有。"],["吳委員沛憶：那……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：啊！對不起，前瞻沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：前瞻沒有，但是用公務預算？所以對於地方創生，國發會仍繼續推動、繼續支持，沒有錯嘛！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。","我要請你們幫我注意，因為我看了一下各縣市的執行成效，在全國地方創生計畫中，臺北市0件；多元徵案，臺北市0件；青年培力工作站，臺北市0件；公有空間活化，臺北市0件。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：有人可能會說地方創生在都會區比較不用，不是這樣的！以六都來看，光是地方創生計畫，新北市有11件，高雄市有10件，請教一下國發會有沒有去了解過臺北市政府發生什麼問題啊？是都沒有來申請，還是跟你們申請，但你們審查沒過？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：主要是它比較沒有來申請。"],["吳委員沛憶：比較沒有來申請？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：據我們了解應該是這個樣子。"],["吳委員沛憶：那我要請副主委幫我注意，因為我的選區在臺北市中正萬華區，我們萬華區在臺北裡面，雖然是都會區，但也是非常需要地方創生的區域，我們地方上有很多優秀的青年團體，他們也曾經投過國發會青年培力工作站的案件。他們告訴我其實都有需求，但有時候地方政府不幫他們提案，對民間團體來講，他們束手無策。所以我希望你們要去衡量，都會區也需要地方創生，尤其是在臺北市，每個區域的發展未必均衡，所以請你們跟地方政府好好討論一下，希望地方創生真的可以落實到社區基層當中，好嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：好，謝謝委員，我們一定會來處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。謝謝主席，兩位請回。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員。","請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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來說明一下"},{"start":125.035,"end":149.448,"text":"目前其實在之前蘇院長就支持我們目前有一個計畫正在申請然後行政院已經原則核定基本上是一個9年的計畫總計畫經費是達到75億大概每年有5億的預算其中高速電腦的採購部分大概是38億左右這個很重要另外我有幾個具體的建議我們強化氣象資訊基礎的建設計畫"},{"start":152.449,"end":179.085,"text":"應該要提升它的運算能力降低預測的成本剛才署長也有做了一點說明要納入更多的情境的模擬應應極端氣候資料不足的這樣的一個問題那更重要跟科技領先的國家來共同合作來提升AI的技術突破數據跟運算的一個瓶頸那建立全球性的這種資料的共享機制強化模擬的數據準確度來 署長簡單說明一下"},{"start":181.807,"end":202.318,"text":"是,我非常認同委員的認知那我們目前這個計畫正在進行其實在過去3年氣象署已經投入了相當的AI的計畫我們也跟NVIDIA做了合作當然在未來在新的計畫裡面我們會加速進行那這個部分也是特別院長特別有要求我們要加速進行"},{"start":203.058,"end":217.667,"text":"另外署長我在2012年來因為我看2011年的這種福島大地震所以在那個時候我就推動國家級警報的設置也要求交通部建立相關的細胞廣播系統那現在"},{"start":219.417,"end":247.594,"text":"建設這樣的一個國家景景報當然還要鋪設海底電纜因為東部的海域大概有七成的地震都是在東部的海域那這個媽祖計畫就是所謂的這個海底的電纜計畫就是媽祖計畫然後已經做到繞過恆春半島已經從仿山那邊接到中華電信所現在我們要往南延伸本來預計跟氣象署大家共同討論是800公里現在剩200公里現在目前的進度呢"},{"start":249.26,"end":275.788,"text":"這個部分我們的修正計畫行政已經通過所以目前我們正在做發包的動作這個必須要加緊他的相關的速度好最後吳次長對於高雄的捷運黃線捷運現在是已經在動工那當然我們也會碰到相關的國際原物料上漲的這樣的一個趨勢或者是缺工缺料其實我們看到營建工程的相關成本"},{"start":276.628,"end":303.297,"text":"對比2021大概都已經是上升大概10%至20%那部分的原料甚至上漲到30%黃線捷運就必須要追加相關的一個預算而另外一條更重要的現在在做可行性的這個報告可行性評估已經出來了現在已經進行到可行性的這個報告這個9月相關的進度也繼續出來我們希望這個交通部能夠繼續的協助那請次長簡單說明"},{"start":305.998,"end":306.639,"text":"指限捷運的進度"},{"start":322.526,"end":347.991,"text":"現在那個高雄市政府還沒送上來?相關的補充資料還沒有送上來?對,還沒有。我們會向高雄市政府以及鐵道局還有交通部我們來盡速的加快它的一個進度。來,那個李副局長有要做補充嗎?快。補充報告一下,那個紫線因為修正的剛送進來,我們在審查當中。已經送進來,我記得是送進來吧?對。好,我們再繼續來相關的聯絡來推動它的一個進度。謝謝。"},{"start":350.267,"end":350.567,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2150,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（13時31分）謝謝召委，請交通部伍次長。"],["主席：交通部伍次長。"],["李委員昆澤：還有氣象署程署長、鐵道局呂副局長。"],["主席：氣象署程署長。"],["李委員昆澤：次長好、署長好。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：氣象局升格為氣象署是我提案推動的，就是希望在極端氣候肆虐之下，能夠更精準地來預報氣象的相關能力，保障國人的生命財產安全。對於氣象署要提升我們的電腦運算能力，現在已經是第6代的超級電腦，來，署長說明一下，我們現在是第6代的超級電腦嘛？"],["程署長家平：是，我們第6代超級……"],["李委員昆澤：而且在全球500大超級電腦裡面是排名69名，對不對？"],["程署長家平：是，我們第6代在去年建置完成，今年2月啟用，裡面CPU的算力是10個Peta，GPU是2 Peta，在3月的時候是排名69，不過……"],["李委員昆澤：我們有超級大電腦，但是相關的AI運算能力，其實現在還是靠著傳統的數據輸入，依賴傳統的技術，譬如物理天氣模式、資料同化技術、觀測數據，其實我們缺乏對極端氣候事件的預測能力，對不對？來，說明一下。"],["程署長家平：是，對短延時強降雨的部分，目前普遍能力是不足的。"],["李委員昆澤：像今年已經有3個颱風登陸臺灣了，這在16年來好像是頭一回，然後極端氣候的挑戰，像今年11月，你看就有那麼多的颱風，這種歷史資料是不足的，因為首次有這樣的狀況，新型態的氣象事件是無法去準確地預測啦！訓練模型需要引入模擬的數據，當然會增加儲存與預算的壓力，那這個部分我們有沒有做相關的考量？有沒有做相關的規劃？來，說明一下。"],["程署長家平：有，其實在之前蘇院長就支持我們，目前有一個計畫正在申請，行政院已經原則核定，基本上是一個9年的計畫，總計畫經費達到75億，大概每年有5億的預算，其中高速電腦的採購部分大概是38億左右。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這個很重要。","另外，我有幾個具體的建議，我們「強化氣象資訊基礎建設計畫」應該要提升運算能力，降低預測成本，剛才署長也有做一點說明，要納入更多的情境模擬，因應極端氣候資料不足的問題，更重要的是跟科技領先的國家來共同合作，提升AI的技術，突破數據與運算的瓶頸，建立全球性的資料共享機制，強化模擬數據的準確度。來，署長簡單說明一下。"],["程署長家平：是，非常認同委員的認知，目前這個計畫正在進行，其實在過去3年氣象署已經投入了相當的AI計畫，我們也跟NVIDIA做了合作，未來在新的計畫裡面我們會加速進行，這個部分院長也有特別要求我們要加速進行。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，署長，我在2012年，因為看到2011年的福島大地震，所以在那個時候我就推動國家級警報的設置，也要求交通部建立相關的細胞廣播系統，現在建置這樣的國家級警報當然還要鋪設海底電纜，因為東部的海域，大概有七成的地震都是在東部的海域，那這個「媽祖計畫」，所謂的海底電纜計畫就是「媽祖計畫」，已經做到繞過恆春半島，已經從枋山那邊接到中華電信所，現在我們要往南延伸，本來跟氣象署大家共同討論是800公里，現在剩200公里，目前的進度呢？"],["程署長家平：我們的修正計畫行政院已經通過，所以目前正在做發包的動作。"],["李委員昆澤：這個必須要加緊速度。","最後，伍次長，對於高雄的捷運，黃線捷運現在已經在動工，當然我們也會碰到國際原物料上漲的趨勢，或者是缺工、缺料，其實我們看到營建工程相關的成本對比2021，大概都已經上升10%至20%，部分原料甚至上漲到30%，黃線捷運就必須要追加相關的預算。","另外一條更重要的紫線，現在在做可行性的報告，可行性評估已經出來了，現在已經進行到可行性的報告，在9月相關的進度也繼續出來，我們希望交通部能夠繼續協助，來，請次長簡單說明一下。"],["伍次長勝園：是，沒問題。剛剛講的黃線，其實我已經開過審查會議，原則同意，現在就是高雄市政府在修正，修正完以後我們看一看沒有問題，大概就往……"],["李委員昆澤：那相關紫線的進度？"],["伍次長勝園：啊？"],["李委員昆澤：紫線捷運的進度。"],["伍次長勝園：紫線捷運，現在高雄市政府還沒送上來，這個我們再……"],["李委員昆澤：相關的補充資料還沒有送上來？"],["伍次長勝園：對，還沒有，我們再協助他們，我們來協助他們。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我會跟高雄市政府以及鐵道局還有交通部，我們儘速來加快它的進度。"],["伍次長勝園：好，是。"],["李委員昆澤：來，呂副局長有要做補充嗎？快！"],["呂副局長新喜：補充報告一下，紫線因為修正的剛送進來，我們在審查當中。"],["李委員昆澤：已經送進來，我記得是送進來嘛！"],["呂副局長新喜：對。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我們再繼續來聯絡，推動它的進度，謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","接著請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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主席請一下何部長和蔡署長部長好 署長好署長我先問一個問題聽說你們勞動力發展署大樓裡面有長官的專屬電梯"},{"start":32.214,"end":32.855,"text":"我現在這樣子直接講"},{"start":62.117,"end":86.81,"text":"為什麼我先提電梯呢?這就是會養成一個官僚的心態啊。立法院、衛環委員會在8樓、財政委員會在9樓,我們也沒有委員專題啊。你們用了一個長官專題,我為什麼特別提出來?因為這種習性不改,你就沒有辦法痛定思痛啊。"},{"start":88.786,"end":98.933,"text":"很多職場上的行為是源自一個看似無關的情況產生的"},{"start":102.745,"end":124.081,"text":"我還是這一次才知道說書店分書店這麼大有專用的路好不好我直接問你啦高委那個是大樓管委會設定的大樓管理管委會不是我們管委會設定你們不能主動要求不要啊"},{"start":126.042,"end":147.854,"text":"對這個這個我們我就說我就說我真的不想不想在這裡太為難你可是你們回復真的要很小心我就不相信我就不相信你們沒有要求人家特別特別弄了一個長官的的座梯然後你們你們沒有能力去去更改這個現象我才不相信就是說"},{"start":157.621,"end":180.53,"text":"這個王顧的公務員啊在事發前10月22到11月1號大概每天都是早上7點多上班到下午7、8點才下班啊血汗啊你們勞動部主管全國勞工的工作權益你們自己這麼搞啊"},{"start":182.793,"end":208.025,"text":"然後分署長有的時候會半夜一點五點給人家傳訊息不回隔天就修理人這個是不是事實兩件事情第一件第一件可以很明確就是就是從10月22到11月10號早上每天都是早上五點多上班到七八點這個是不是事實這是事實"},{"start":211.806,"end":235.142,"text":"分署長有沒有都是把有時候會半夜1點多交付交辦事項然後或者是5點多沒有回會修理人這個是不是事實報告委員這個調查報告裡面有呈現這個部分有對不對好那欸"},{"start":239.828,"end":265.659,"text":"為什麼這樣子長期超時工作的單位北分署跟勞發署是同一個辦公大樓是不是是所以嘛你們做專題嘛所以你們聽不到基層的聲音嘛你事前全部都不知道不知道北分署這麼血汗不知道你知道嗎"},{"start":269.369,"end":293.925,"text":"發委員因為沒有來北分署沒有跟我們做好北分署沒有跟你做那個那我給你一個資料從謝宜榮分署長到任到去年年底北分署離職率高了一倍啊從5點多%攀升到11%多"},{"start":297.697,"end":323.79,"text":"最新的統計數字今年的離職率來到13.5這麼高的離職率你作為署長你全部沒有覺得假如不是工作內容太繁複工作環境太差就是領導同意有問題你全部不告不理"},{"start":327.435,"end":340.122,"text":"你任何一點感覺都沒有不覺得這種離職率太高離職的人裡面81人其中有17個是主管職務總會到你那裡吧你不覺得奇怪怪不怪報告委員這個是異常這個確實我們必須要檢討異常書定你現在承認異常"},{"start":357.54,"end":367.224,"text":"那這個狀態是持續性的你為什麼要等到悲劇發生了全國的民意沸騰了你們才要檢討為什麼有收過投訴案嗎"},{"start":381.121,"end":399.112,"text":"有嗎?報告委員這段時間是真的沒有沒有沒有得到投訴所以沒有投訴你們就不會從相關的數據自己去去去看看這個你看喔南分數的離職率是5%阿是北分數的三成阿三分之一阿蘇定平平是你的分數"},{"start":411.465,"end":439.884,"text":"有一個離職率這麼高你們也不主動去關心看看而且還跟你同一棟辦公室好我再問剛剛組長在回復土委員的時候說謝芬組長派任前並沒有霸凌的前科對不對對不對沒有接到投訴沒有好"},{"start":441.189,"end":465.636,"text":"你知道為什麼嗎?他在從是公職以來到他當分署長他的主管職務是什麼?主管歷練是什麼?他歷練過什麼組長?主管有幹過組長嗎?科長有幹過啦?科長有沒有?有有齁組長有嗎?"},{"start":470.984,"end":471.044,"text":"為什麼?為什麼?"},{"start":495.206,"end":500.87,"text":"跟委員報告因為是因為你們其他的副分署長都不堪用還是真的謝分署長有通天的本領"},{"start":509.224,"end":509.424,"text":"是他沒有機會啊!"},{"start":542.655,"end":569.324,"text":"蘇定,大家都說謝芬署長是你和徐明川前部長的愛將所以才破格任用,你有沒有什麼話要說?報告委員,蘇大德任用並不會單純去考慮這個因素因為我們完全是以能力跟他的私人性去處理好,主席不好意思我再耽誤一點點時間"},{"start":572.862,"end":600.421,"text":"這種這種任用這種升格任用有算不算違反常規你直接這樣子這樣子回答就好了我不要說破格破格你們可能覺得覺得不好聽有沒有違反常規你們現在的分署長裡面跟謝分署長同樣用用這種模式升到分署長的有誰"},{"start":603.663,"end":620.988,"text":"各位委員報告像以我們現在的分數其實就是要考慮到他要符合身兼的一個資格我知道啦我知道你沒有違法任用啦我現在說有沒有違反常規嘛因為他的主管歷練太少了嘛我認為就是因為他的主管任用太歷練太少所以才會爆發這件事嘛"},{"start":632.625,"end":643.75,"text":"你沒有讓他有發揮領導統一能力的職務歷練你就把他提到分署長這個職務所以我光是聽錄音檔我就覺得那個不是一個政府的機關一個單位是一個幫派的堂口"},{"start":664.896,"end":670.099,"text":"蘇帝努你之前跟他說有沒有違法當然沒有違法啊我現在就是問說違反常規為什麼你和許民尊部長當初當初任用他"},{"start":686.769,"end":701.745,"text":"要做分署長讓你們會介意他沒有經過所長、沒有做過副署長、直接對專委空降去當分署長表示你們對他的領導同意是很有把握的嘛是不用透過其他的職務來考核你們就絕對信任嘛"},{"start":718.319,"end":723.402,"text":"委員這個事我自己都要自我檢討我會自我反省署長一條人命啊"},{"start":750.609,"end":765.198,"text":"你們主管全國勞工工作權益保障的單位六七年來應該做的事情不做惹出了一大堆遺憾的事啊蘇甯這六七年保甯"},{"start":777.591,"end":781.113,"text":"部長很遺憾是發生在你的任內那你來趙偉廷說我真的這裡講完就結束很遺憾就是你也已經來6個月了在這段時間"},{"start":803.683,"end":827.771,"text":"你沒有發現到內部有這麼嚴重的霸凌事件我覺得你也要負一些責任不是說大家為難你們因為這個是這一件事情不好好處理"},{"start":829.489,"end":848.595,"text":"這件事情不好好處理我覺得我覺得全國人民對於對於執政團隊會非常的失望而且而且特別是對勞動部我剛剛講的就是我的觀察這六七年來六七年啊"},{"start":849.858,"end":850.018,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝楊曜"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1506,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時32分）謝謝主席，請何部長及蔡署長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好、署長好。署長，我先問一個問題，聽說你們勞動力發展署大樓裡有長官的專屬電梯？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，它是為了……"],["楊委員曜：你要回答好喔！我不發脾氣，但是你要老實講喔！"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，它現在……"],["楊委員曜：資訊是很透明的。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，其實它並不是我們機關設置的，而是當初聯合辦公大樓有一部電梯，因為我們在南棟，基本上，那部電梯與每位首長的方位比較接近。"],["楊委員曜：我現在就直接講，為什麼我要先提電梯呢？這個就是官僚心態的養成。立法院衛環委員會在8樓、財政委員會在9樓，我們也沒有委員專屬電梯啊！你們設置了一個長官專梯，為什麼我會特別提出來？因為這種習性不改，你就沒辦法痛定思痛。很多職場上的行為是源自於一個看似無關的情況所產生，我還是這次才知道署長、分署長這麼大，竟然有專用的電梯。我就直接問你……"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，那個是大樓管委會設定，不是我們……"],["楊委員曜：管委會設定，你們不能主動要求不要嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個我們會……"],["楊委員曜：我真的不想在這裡太為難你，但是你們回復時真的要很小心。我就不相信既然你們沒有要求人家特別弄一個長官的座梯，竟然也沒有能力更改這個現象，我才不相信！署長，我問你，這位亡故的公務員在事發前的10月22日到11月1日，大概每天都是早上5點多上班，直到下午7、8點才下班，血汗啊！你們勞動部主管全國勞工的工作權益，但是你們自己這麼搞啊！分署長甚至有時候會在半夜1點、清晨5點傳訊息，如果不回，隔天就修理人，這個是不是事實？兩件事情，第一件很明確，從10月22日到11月1日，每天都是早上5點多上班到7、8點，這是不是事實？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這是事實。"],["楊委員曜：分署長有時候會在半夜1點多或清晨5點多交辦事項，沒有回她就會修理人，這是不是事實？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，調查報告裡面有呈現這個部分。"],["楊委員曜：有，對不對？這樣一個長期超時工作的單位，北分署與勞發署是同一個辦公大樓，是不是？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["楊委員曜：因為你們搭專梯，所以你們聽不到基層的聲音嘛！你在事前全部都不知道？不知道北分署這麼血汗？不知道？你知道嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，因為北分署沒有向我們做……"],["楊委員曜：好，北分署沒有向你們通報，那麼我就給你一個資料，從謝宜容分署長到任後，一直到去年年底，北分署的離職率高了一倍，從百分之五點多攀升到百分之十一點多。最新的統計數字，今年的離職率達到13.5%啊！這麼高的離職率，假如不是工作內容太繁複、工作環境太差，就是領導統御有問題，你身為署長卻全部不告不理，一點感覺都沒有，不覺得這樣的離職率太高。在離職的81人中有17人是主管職務，總會送到你那裡吧！你不覺得奇怪？怪不怪？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這個是異常，我們確實必須要檢討。"],["楊委員曜：異常？署長，你現在承認是異常，但這個狀態是持續性的，為什麼要等到悲劇發生了、全國的民意沸騰了，你們才要檢討？為什麼？有收過投訴案嗎？有嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，這段時間真的沒有收到。"],["楊委員曜：沒有？因為沒有投訴，你們就不會從相關的數據去關切。你看南分署的離職率是5%，只有北分署的三成、三分之一啊！署長，同樣都是你的分署，有一個離職率這麼高，你們也不主動關心，況且還與你同一棟辦公大樓。我再問，剛剛署長回復涂委員，謝分署長在派任前並沒有霸凌的前科，對不對？對不對？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有接到投訴。"],["楊委員曜：沒有，好。你知道為什麼嗎？他從事公職以來到當分署長，他的主管歷練是什麼？他歷練過什麼主管？有幹過組長嗎？科長有幹過嗎，科長有沒有？"],["蔡署長孟良：有。"],["楊委員曜：組長有嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["楊委員曜：副署長有嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["楊委員曜：那當然沒有機會讓他表現啊！那為什麼這樣可以破格任用？為什麼？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為……"],["楊委員曜：是因為你們其他的副分署長都不堪用？還是謝分署長真的有通天的本領？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，其實完全沒有這個因素的考慮。"],["楊委員曜：沒有這個因素？沒有這個因素會有一個只當過科長主管歷練的人就直接跑去當分署長，然後署長來這邊還回復其他委員，說他在當分署長前沒有霸凌的前科，是他沒有機會啊！署長，大家都說謝分署長是你和許銘春前部長的愛將，所以才破格任用，你有沒有什麼話要說？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，所有的任用並不會單純去考慮這個因素，因為我們完全是以能力跟適用性去處理……"],["楊委員曜：主席，不好意思，我再耽誤一點點時間。這種升格任用算不算違反常規？你直接這樣子回答就好了，我不要說破格，破格你們可能覺得不好聽，有沒有違反常規？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員曜：你們現在的分署長裡面，跟謝分署長同樣用這種模式升到分署長的有誰？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，以我們現在的分署，其實就是要考慮到他要符合升遷的資格。"],["楊委員曜：我知道啦，我知道你沒有違法任用啦，我現在是說有沒有違反常規嘛！因為他的主管歷練太少了，我認為就是因為他的主管任用歷練太少，所以才會爆發這件事，你沒有讓他有發揮領導統御能力的職務歷練，你就把他提到分署長這個職務嘛，所以我光是聽錄音檔，我就覺得那個不是一個政府的機關、單位，而是一個幫派的堂口啊！署長，你現在跟我說有沒有違法，當然沒有違法啊，我現在就是問違反常規，為什麼？你和許銘春前部長當初任用他，讓他當分署長，也讓你們滿意，他沒有經過組長，也沒有做過副署長，就直接從專委空降去當分署長，表示你們對他的領導統御是很有把握的嘛，不用透過其他的職務來考核，你們就絕對信任嘛！署長，你都不回應我？主席不用站起來。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，我想……"],["楊委員曜：就跟你說，我來這裡沒有想要生氣，不要問一問搞得氣氛越來越差。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，這個事情我自己都要自我檢討，我會自我反省。"],["楊委員曜：署長，一條人命啊！你們主管全國勞工工作權益保障的單位，六、七年來應該做的事情不做，惹出了一大堆遺憾的事啊！部長，很遺憾是發生在你的任內，請召委讓我把這個講完就結束。很遺憾，部長，你也已經來6個月了，在這段時間，你沒有發現到內部有這麼嚴重的霸凌事件，我覺得你也要負一些責任，不是大家為難你們，因為這件事情不好好處理，我覺得全國人民對於執政團隊會非常的失望，而且特別是對勞動部。我剛剛講了，就是我的觀察，這六、七年來，勞動部很少幹過一件好的事情，倒是惹出了這麼大的憾事。好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員，我們現在休息3分鐘。","休息（13時47分）","繼續開會（13時51分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。接續請郭國文委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157198","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157198","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab6a1fbad3ba2ab80215c44cfb23388520d632f63170caf1df28864551c56b11fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"13:18:21 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謝謝主席那還是請我們部長 辛苦了我也好好 何部長那我知道今天你壓力也很大也很辛苦但是這個社會大眾大家很關注的事情我覺得有些地方我們還是要說明來釐清一下因為針對我們前次長王安邦說"},{"start":31.857,"end":53.273,"text":"我之前做議員的時候跟我們王次長那時候他在市府也是擔任局長所以我們也算認識了那我們一直針對王次長到底有沒有約過謝芬署長這一部分好像一直大家都沒有說得很清楚是不是到底部長到底他有沒有事先約談我們的謝芬署長"},{"start":54.033,"end":75.019,"text":"其實我早上就已經有回答委員的詢問我真的不清楚我只是聽說所以我們現在要重新立案調查好像也說要針對這部分要提出調查嘛對不對那其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候我剛剛也聽到陳穎委員還有其他委員有在講喔他說其實這個重點已經不是在有沒有約談啦"},{"start":76.139,"end":96.694,"text":"他們說這根本就是有約談只是重點約談以後這個案子被誰擋掉、被誰吃掉他說這才是調查的重點我相信剛剛部長應該也有聽得很清楚啦所以我也希望針對這一部分真的希望好好的去調查因為我們都認為說這件事情感覺"},{"start":98.135,"end":127.057,"text":"並不是一個謝分署長個人的事情就像媒體一直在講這個感覺就是後台很硬而且我們知道王安邦次長在凌晨晚上12點的時候匆匆被發布離職新聞稿那時候我們也開玩笑講說奇怪這個霸凌被約談的分署長沒有離職反而約談人的次長就離職或許這部長認為可能這是一個巧合"},{"start":127.918,"end":157.132,"text":"可是我覺得這一份的調查報告真的真的很重要我相信社會大眾也很想知道也很想釐清剛剛你看這個臨時提案不但是國民黨通過連民進黨執政的執政黨他們也認為這個事情真的有必要調查的清清楚楚而且該送檢調送檢調該送監察的送監察那這部分也希望部長因為今天大家對你"},{"start":157.812,"end":181.363,"text":"你們今天做的勞動部的報告真的是不滿意啦那而且據我們了解監察院現在也要介入調查那你會不會擔心監察院到時候做出來調查跟我們勞動部好像不太一樣因為我們勞動部說這個無性職員這一部分跟謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係你們的報告是不是這樣子"},{"start":185.632,"end":213.257,"text":"對嘛你認為沒有直接的關係那其實喔針對這部分我們也看過你的報告就是說他針對這部分我們有兩個重點一個就是當然剛剛你也講謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁但是這個無姓的死因跟謝分署長的霸凌你說你們的報告是說沒有直接的關係但是有間接的關係"},{"start":214.417,"end":237.022,"text":"那其實針對這部分我們也很關心我也看過很多網路網友我也跟你分享一下可是我覺得聽了很諷刺啊他說這個沒有直接的死因跟霸凌無關但是跟這根繩子有關我覺得講這個話真的對我們的報告是很諷刺啊覺得他們覺得你這個報告根本"},{"start":237.862,"end":262.285,"text":"民眾是沒有辦法接受的所以這部分我希望剛剛有講說要重啟調查我覺得這個重啟調查或許對勞動部我覺得也是一個好事希望真的讓真相大白不要讓我們社會大眾大家心中有這個疑慮在因為畢竟現在有關於這霸凌而且有關於一條人命還有受害者的家屬"},{"start":263.697,"end":291.786,"text":"好那針對這部分還有我請問一下我們蔡署長那給部長休息一下蔡署長那請問一下你看一下這一張簡報大概的時間表我們是在11月8號這個新聞曝光那署長是不是在11月8號之前有到北分署去來關心我們這些同仁有去做一些安撫是好像是11月7號去的嘛是"},{"start":292.847,"end":297.869,"text":"我本來有要去的啦那後來因為當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動"},{"start":321.88,"end":346.976,"text":"那也有同仁似乎也有同仁認為我不應該去那麼我就尊重啦對所以其實可能為什麼我會啟動調查也是這個原因所以可能為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢那一定有問題好像其實我看分屬的同仁好像這個事情發生後很多人也對"},{"start":348.177,"end":348.217,"text":"副副長"},{"start":363.414,"end":382.327,"text":"從我剛剛看臨時動議我一直覺得部長好像給我感覺好像還是有一點包袱針對這個停職的部分你一直好像並沒有很明確而且希望好像還希望有轉圜的餘地不是不是委員我跟您報告這絕對會是我考慮的範圍而且"},{"start":390.48,"end":405.033,"text":"這個是沒有問題的對啊我希望部長你還是要表現你的態度啦那剛剛很多委員也擔心這分署長如果還待在分署裡面可能還是會影響這個調查報告他不會待在分署裡面"},{"start":405.213,"end":425.414,"text":"所以基本上如果他停職近代調查我覺得對部長也是一個好事那現在部長的態度我希望說要讓給我們勞動部這些同仁要有信心要感覺是真的要來處理這件事情不要變成很多事情他們不敢真正表態還利用網路去爆料去講這些事情"},{"start":426.094,"end":444.935,"text":"希望這個調查報告在做的時候能夠得到社會大眾的認同因為針對我們憲分署長其實剛剛早上大家也知道你看他到分署不到兩年的時間這退離職就高達81個人有6個人是自願降職來調離的"},{"start":447.137,"end":461.369,"text":"所以想想看這個官場大家都希望升職居然這麼多人寧可掉職都要離開這個地方所以這部分我相信大家都很想知道為什麼我們謝芬署長有這麼強硬的後台還有這個報告"},{"start":466.297,"end":489.255,"text":"其實裡面也不用再講了這什麼目的良善什麼這個整早上大家委員還有很多社會大眾都對這個報告真的看不下去還有我們針對分署長他在這個職務之前我請問一下他之前有沒有發生過類似霸凌的事情在這之前做分署長之前我不瞭解這要問署長"},{"start":490.151,"end":517.223,"text":"蔡署長報告委員之前並沒有沒有反應所以所以其實我們了解這個縣署長霸凌的行為你們的報告是說跟情緒管理溝通能力有關那其實像針對這部分我們是覺得我們分署啊那個蔡署長你你可以說明一下我們的北分署他的業務大概有幾個重點嗎"},{"start":519.921,"end":541.81,"text":"跟委員報告齁北分署現在是我們五個分署裡面的轄區最大那基本上它的業務的承載量大概佔了將近三分之一它主要的業務範圍是什麼主要就是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定還有一些相關移工的相關事務對嘛所以其實它的重點就在就業服務跟職業訓練的部分那其實謝分署長齁"},{"start":543.601,"end":551.946,"text":"我們看一下他的資歷喔其實他做這個分署長你看一下你看他裡面哪一個資歷是跟就業服務跟職業訓練有關係的"},{"start":555.814,"end":557.875,"text":"我本人就是我本來是在移工業務但是後來我到中區執訓做職業訓練"},{"start":585.866,"end":602.115,"text":"對那針對這部分我們認為你看剛剛署長你有講他之前沒有之前我們分署長你看他之前沒有一些霸凌的事情發生然後後來"},{"start":603.663,"end":617.708,"text":"他做這個分署長其實跟他的業務並沒有他的專長然後你看一下他的資歷其實主管的是公關業務跟新人聯絡人其實照這樣來講他的EQ跟溝通能力應該是沒有關係的"},{"start":618.948,"end":639.216,"text":"那可是你看他到這個團隊來其實會讓人家感覺他外行在領導這個內行然後整天要我們的同仁發新聞稿做媒體經營所以難怪會造成我們下面的同仁感覺壓力很大"},{"start":641.704,"end":657.061,"text":"署長你有沒有覺得當初升任他做分署長的時候是依什麼考量而且看這樣來講人家說他是做直升級也沒有擔任他只是部裡的一個專委一下就升到分署長這個是不是感覺升官的途徑有點快"},{"start":660.336,"end":689.625,"text":"報告委員 這個案子其實我們每位主管在升任的過程當中會有一些評估那當然他現在針對這個事件有一些不當的情況我想這個都必須要深切去檢討對啊 所以署長因為這個事情那時候大家直指當然是不是我們何沛山部長的任內升的分署長是之前我們許民春部長然後我們的署長也是我們蔡孟良署長那其實媒體一直報導這你們就是"},{"start":691.6,"end":707.647,"text":"同一個派系聽說是我們局系一脈相傳下來然後許民村部長然後也是然後我們這個謝芬署長聽說也是我們蔡署長的愛將我希望針對這個部分的問題我們還是要嚴加來"},{"start":711.997,"end":732.634,"text":"查看、針對這個調查報告一定要詳細的來做因為我們重我們整體評估這個結果你看其實我們勞動部針對這個報告我們剛剛問了那麼多我們發現勞動部有很多問題他是不敢面對而且一直在迴避他"},{"start":733.414,"end":747.682,"text":"整個報告只針對情緒失控跟言語暴力還有職場霸凌跟同仁恣意這兩個部分去處理其實縱觀看我們謝芬署長他本身不是這個"},{"start":748.823,"end":749.103,"text":"職場霸凌防治與處理作業"},{"start":767.711,"end":791.915,"text":"的能力而且在看他的資歷來講也是屬於我們署長跟前部長破格任用那當然他本身外行領導內行我們認為他本身到這個位置以前沒有霸凌的問題後來為什麼有我們是認為應該是他自己本身壓力太大所以我們希望除了"},{"start":792.555,"end":820.108,"text":"之前針對職場霸凌跟情緒失控這兩個報告有做之外希望後面的報告針對我們三個欠缺核心業務能力這一部分還有為什麼去破格任用還有他在裡面怎麼領導造成我們下屬沒有辦法接受他這種霸凌的行為我希望部長跟署長針對這部分能夠跟我們把這部分報告能夠做詳盡好不好謝謝委員"},{"start":823.015,"end":845.85,"text":"好 那部長跟署長也辛苦但是我們希望勞動部從這一次之後能夠痛丁失痛把一些我們這些問題藉由這一次的調查報告我們來釐清大家好好來檢討改善因為我們勞動部勞動部是我們全國最高的勞工的中央機關大家都非常關注好 謝謝謝謝陸委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1469,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時18分）謝謝主席，還是請部長，辛苦了！"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：何部長，我知道今天你的壓力也很大，也很辛苦！但這是社會大眾很關注的事情，我覺得有些地方還是要說明釐清一下。之前我擔任議員時，前次長王安邦是在市府擔任局長，所以我們也算是認識，針對王次長到底有沒有約談過謝分署長這個部分，大家好像一直都沒有說清楚，是不是？部長，到底他有沒有事先約談謝分署長？"],["何部長佩珊：其實早上我就已經回答委員的詢問，我真的不清楚、我只是聽說，所以我們現在要重新立案調查。"],["涂委員權吉：好像也說要針對這個部分提出調查，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["涂委員權吉：其實剛剛在臨時提案的時候，我聽到陳瑩委員及其他委員的看法，她說其實重點已經不在於有沒有約談，因為這個根本就是有約談，重點是約談後這個案子被誰擋掉、被誰吃掉，這個才是調查的重點。我相信剛剛部長應該也聽得很清楚，所以我也希望針對這個部分真的要好好的調查，因為我們都認為這件事感覺並不是謝分署長個人的事情，誠如媒體所言，這件事感覺就是後台很硬。而且我們也知道王安邦次長在晚上12點匆匆被發布離職新聞稿，那時候我們還開玩笑，奇怪！霸凌人的分署長沒有離職，反而約談人的次長就離職了，或許部長認為這可能是一個巧合，但是我覺得這份調查報告真的很重要，相信社會大眾也很想知道、也很想釐清。你看剛剛的臨時提案，不單是國民黨通過，連執政的民進黨也認為這件事情真的有必要調查得清清楚楚，而且該送檢調的送檢調、該送監察的送監察。今天大家對於你們勞動部提出的報告真的是不滿意，據我們的了解，監察院現在也要介入調查，你會不會擔心到時候監察院做出的調查與勞動部好像不太一樣？因為勞動部說吳姓職員這個部分與謝分署長霸凌沒有直接的關係，你們的報告是不是這樣寫？你們認為沒有直接的關係？"],["何部長佩珊：調查報告裡面呈現的是這樣子。"],["涂委員權吉：我們也看過你的報告，針對這個部分有兩個重點，一個就是剛剛你所講的，謝分署長確實有霸凌分署的同仁，至於這位吳姓職員的死因與謝分署長的霸凌，在你們的報告裡是說沒有直接的關係，但是有間接的關係。其實針對這個部分，我們也很關心、也看過很多網路上網友的留言，在這裡也與你分享一下，不過聽起來是很諷刺。有網友說「直接的死因與霸凌無關，但是與這根繩子有關」，我覺得講這句話對於你們的報告真的是很諷刺，可見民眾對你們這份報告根本無法接受。既然剛剛也說要重啟調查，我覺得重啟調查對勞動部而言也是一件好事，希望能夠真的讓真相大白，不要讓社會大眾心中有疑慮存在，畢竟這件事關係到一條人命及受害者的家屬。","接下來要請問蔡署長，也讓部長休息一下。蔡署長，你看一下這張簡報是大概的時間表，11月8日這個新聞曝光，署長是不是在11月8日之前去過北分署關心、安撫這些同仁？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好像是11月7日去的？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這個部分，部長後來有沒有去北分署與這些同仁溝通並且安撫他們？"],["何部長佩珊：我本來有要去的，後來因為……當然同仁當時的情緒似乎都很激動，也有同仁認為我不應該去，所以我就尊重啦！為什麼我會啟動調查，也是這個原因。我在想為什麼會有同仁不希望我去呢？一定是有問題。"],["涂委員權吉：在這件事情發生後，分署的許多同仁對部長好像也不是很諒解，據我們的了解，現在勞動部很多同仁都一直在看部長的態度，希望部長針對這個部分真的要嚴辦。從剛剛看到臨時動議，我一直覺得部長感覺上好像還是有一點包袱，針對停職的部分，你好像一直沒有很明確表示，好像還希望能有轉圜的餘地。"],["何部長佩珊：不是、不是，委員，我向你報告，這個絕對會是我考慮的範圍，而且這個是沒有問題的。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！我希望部長還是要表現出你的態度。剛剛很多委員也擔心，如果這位分署長還待在分署裡面，可能還是會影響到調查報告。"],["何部長佩珊：她不會待在分署裡面。"],["涂委員權吉：基本上，如果她停職靜待調查，我覺得對部長也是一件好事。至於部長現在的態度，我希望能讓勞動部的同仁有信心，要讓他們感覺真的是要處理這件事情，不要讓他們變成對很多事情不敢真正表態，甚至只能利用網路爆料講這些事情，也希望之後出來的調查報告能獲得社會大眾的認同。針對謝分署長的部分，其實大家也都知道，她在分署不到二年的時間，退離職就高達81個人，其中有6個人是自願降職調離。想想看，大家在官場都是希望能升職，居然有這麼多人寧可降職都要離開這個地方，因此，我相信大家都很知道為什麼謝分署長有這麼強硬的後台？其實這份報告所說的什麼目的良善都不用再講了，很多委員及社會大眾對這份報告真的是看不下去！此外，請問一下，這位謝分署長在擔任分署長之前是否也曾經發生過霸凌的行為？"],["何部長佩珊：不了解，這個要問署長。"],["涂委員權吉：蔡署長？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，之前並沒有反映。"],["涂委員權吉：之前並沒有？"],["蔡署長孟良：對。"],["涂委員權吉：在你們的報告中表示，謝分署長霸凌的行為與情緒管理及溝通能力有關。針對這個部分，蔡署長能否說明一下北分署的業務大概有幾個重點？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，北分署現在是我們五個分署中轄區最大的分署，基本上，它的業務乘載量大概佔了將近三分之一。"],["涂委員權吉：它的主要業務範圍是什麼？"],["蔡署長孟良：主要是就業服務、職業訓練、技能檢定及一些移工的相關事務。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛！其實它的重點在於就業服務與職業訓練的部分，但是我們看一下謝分署長的資歷，她有哪一個資歷與就業服務或職業訓練有關係？看起來都與這些沒有關係啊！因此，針對這個部分，我覺得要她勝任分署長的職務可能也有一點為難她了！勞動部在這之前是否有像這樣沒有就業服務、沒有就業訓練等相關經歷就可以接任分署長的例子？之前有沒有這樣的狀況？蔡署長知道嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，我本人就是。原本我是在移工業務，後來我到中區職訓做職業訓練。"],["涂委員權吉：剛剛署長說這位分署長之前沒有發生過霸凌的事情，後來她擔任分署長的業務並不是她的專長，你看一下她的資歷，其實她主管的是公關業務與新聞聯絡人，照這樣來講，她的EQ與溝通能力應該是沒有關係的，但是她到這個團隊之後，可能會讓人家感覺她是外行領導內行，整天就要同仁發新聞稿、做媒體經營，難怪會讓下面的同仁感覺壓力很大。署長，當初將她升任為分署長是依據什麼考量？這樣看起來，人家說她是搭直升機，原本只是部裡的專委，一下就升到分署長，感覺升官的途徑是不是有點快啊？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，其實我們每位主管在升任的過程中都會有一些評估，當然現在這個事件是有一些不當的情況，我想這些都必須要檢討。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！署長，這位分署長並不是在何佩珊部長任內升職的分署長，而是在之前許銘春部長的任內升職，署長一樣是蔡孟良署長，媒體一直報導說你們就是同一個派系，聽說是菊系一脈相傳下來，許銘春部長也是，而且聽說謝分署長也是蔡署長的愛將。針對這個部分的問題，我希望還是要嚴加查看，這份調查報告也一定要詳細的做。根據我們整體評估這個結果，針對勞動部的這份報告，剛剛我們問了那麼多，發現勞動部有很多的問題不敢面對，而且一直在迴避。整個報告只針對情緒失控與言語暴力、職場霸凌與同仁自縊兩個部分去處理，其實綜觀來看謝分署長，她並不是這個專業本行出身，可以說是外行要領導這些通過高普考的勞動部分署官員，職業訓練與就業服務不是她的專長，所以她欠缺了這方面的業務能力。此外，就她的資歷而言，也是屬於署長及前部長破格任用。當然她本身是外行領導內行，以前她沒有霸凌的問題，為什麼到了這個位置之後就有霸凌的行為？我們認為應該是她自己本身壓力太大。因此，除了之前針對職場霸凌及情緒失控進行的調查報告之外，我們希望後面的報告也能針對三個部分，包括欠缺核心業務能力、為什麼會破格任用，以及她在任內是如何領導，造成下屬無法接受她的霸凌行為，希望部長與署長能針對這個部分將調查報告做得更詳盡，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：部長及署長都辛苦了！但我們也希望勞動部在這件事之後能夠痛定思痛，並藉由這次的調查報告將一些問題釐清，大家好好的檢討改善，因為勞動部是全國勞工最高的中央機關，大家都非常的關注，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157197","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eabed1e3a1a779b7a901ff0707298ac1983d632f63170caf1dfb70b6df063f2d9295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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．"},{"start":343.275,"end":359.748,"text":"國土計畫法上路有一個第23條給我們一個原住民族土地管制規則來解套可是我要說的是我們也應該要想辦法不能夠一年一年看著執行率不佳我們要去正視像是我常常講"},{"start":360.569,"end":376.272,"text":"可不可以做一個沙盒計畫鬆綁一些法規找一些事辦場域而且要立法像我們原住民我們就很想要原保條例提升法律外接要不然我們怎麼面對水保法森林法什麼都不能做"},{"start":377.373,"end":406.733,"text":"所以地方創生促進法我不知道什麼名字我不知道國發會有沒有這個想法那總之從105年開始講108年創生元年到現在快要10年了所以我覺得我們包括我們的融資的優惠針對這一些提供融資、租稅、金融的優惠應該要另立專法或專案的方式我想日本之所以成功就是我剛剛講的他都做到了所以副主委您怎麼看"},{"start":407.974,"end":408.254,"text":"李坤澤委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2128,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時24分）謝謝主席，等一下兩個單位，先原民會，後面國發會。"],["主席：好，原民會曾主委、國發會詹副主委。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：您很清楚，我們原鄉，就是原住民的鄉鎮，它的財務結構絕大多數都是仰賴中央補助，而且比例很高，我隨便抽3個，以牡丹鄉來講，仰賴中央62%，尖石鄉56%，桃源區89%，所以對我們來講，我們很需要中央的挹注。","你們原民會這些年有補助地方叫做基本設施維持費，這個對原鄉來講很重要，可是我們以面積來看，全臺最大鄉鎮面積排名，前23名全部是原鄉，原鄉地區因為幅員遼闊，所需要處理的地方基礎建設非常的多，所以對公所來講，負擔非常的大。","這幾年我們有前瞻的預算，前瞻基礎建設預算以原民會來看，其中一個項目叫做部落內公共設施改善，成果很豐碩哦！特別是像文健站這個部分，空間的整建也得到很豐碩的成果。在第4期預算，也就是112年到113年，以我剛剛講的部落內公共設施改善，你們編了3.2億，但是第5期編1,000萬，所以想要問主委，落差這麼大，那麼編列的時候你們是怎麼評估？因為時間的關係，你先不用回答，等一下統一回答。","好，為什麼我這樣問？我們來看你們別的科目，以多元產業2.0來說，在第4期的時候編了6億，第5期編了4億，這個落差太大了！以我講的這個6億，然後編成4億，它的預算跟決算，你看，原本7,000萬，結果實際是2,800萬，然後各地方政府的執行率也都在二成、四成、五成，甚至有人是8%，所以這樣的一個方式，我要提醒並請教主委，你看，我們倚賴，我們百廢待舉啊！尤其是推動文健站之後，全國有幾百個文健站，幾乎每個部落都有，這對原鄉是很重要的一個政策，可是我們用的都是什麼？你最清楚，我們用的是閒置的派出所、閒置的檢查哨、閒置的學校、閒置的衛生所等等等，那些都是不安全結構啊！百廢待舉啊！","甚至你也最清楚知道，我們有很多的困擾是來自於土地根本不合法，也沒有建照，也沒有使用執照，連要爭取政府的補助都爭取不來，所以我要講的是說，部落這麼多傳統屋、入口意象、文健站、活動中心、運動空間、集會所、家屋等等等，我們太需要原民會挹注經費來改善，所以我想請教主委，你會調整嗎？你願意去處理這些問題嗎？例如編經費去處理補照的問題，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以，我們可以來研究，而且我們也往這個方向在做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我希望一週內來說明，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：再請教一下國發會。副主委您好，剩下一點點時間我就快速講。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我要說的是，這幾年對我們原鄉來講，我們聽到地方創生都很興奮欸！都很願意報計畫欸！可是我隨便講一個，以農業部來講，我們可以看到，我隨便抽一個，它說經費編3.59億，然後執行率53.88%，這個執行率很差欸！甚至它提到說促進青年參與才50人次，這個執行率不好吧！但是我沒有要講農業部，因為都差不多，為什麼？因為我舉個例子，尤其是我們原鄉，很辛苦啊！我們碰到很多土地的問題、法規的問題，我舉個例子，他想要做溫室，不行！想要做雞舍，不行！想要做加工廠，不行！想要做小型屠宰場，什麼都不行！這個怎麼執行？怎麼地方創生？您應該很清楚。","我們常常在講，像我們處處受限制，原鄉大部分都在國家公園保留地、原保地、土地重劃區，它一旦遇到法規，曠日廢時，很辛苦，所以很難有執行率。我常常說，我們好在國土計畫法上路，有第二十三條給我們一個原住民族土地管制規則來解套，可是我要說的是，我們也應該要想辦法啊！不能夠一年一年看著執行率不佳，我們要去正視，像是我常常講的，可不可以做一個沙盒計畫？鬆綁一些法規，找一些試辦場域，而且要立法啊！像我們原住民就很想要原保條例，提升法律位階，要不然我們怎麼面對水保法、森林法？什麼都不能做！所以地方創生促進法，我不知道什麼名字，我不知道國發會有沒有這個想法，總之，從105年開始講，108年創生元年到現在，快要10年了欸！我覺得包括我們融資的優惠，針對這一些提供融資、租稅、金融的優惠，應該要另立專法或專案的方式，我想日本之所以成功，就是我剛剛講的它都做到了，所以副主委，您怎麼看？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員，的確是面臨很多的限制，委員剛剛提到專法的部分，我們過去也有討論過，是不是容我們會後把我們研議的結果跟委員報告？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那一樣，一週內來我辦公室，我們來討論，可以嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝副主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接著請李昆澤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 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start":1.527,"end":1.689,"text":"邱部長"},{"start":12.662,"end":30.831,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天啊本期想跟你一起關心一下食安的議題因為之前我在質詢這個前瞻4期預算解凍的時候就有反應過這件事這個1到4期的食安總經費大概只有佔8400億上限的0.47規模但我們在"},{"start":35.333,"end":63.411,"text":"第4期解凍案處理之前就發現我們從今年1月到現在食安的風暴不斷所以提醒大家應該要正視這個問題並且在前瞻第5期預算還沒有拍板就必須要看到預算過低的問題不然就會讓大家持續陷入在食安的風暴中那我想問一下這次的前瞻第5期食安建設項目除了衛福部之外是不是沒有別的中央機關編列了是不是"},{"start":67.247,"end":72.07,"text":"我是食藥署的副署長跟委員報告我們食安的第5期有編列編列的是3.5億元比第4期還要多"},{"start":95.766,"end":113.973,"text":"所以是有增加的不過13.5億元換算在這個前瞻總上限佔的比例只有0.15%它的比例是下降的跟委員報告我們是每一期比較啦我們那個第5期跟第4期第4期是編了14.4億所以我們並沒有說有下降"},{"start":119.929,"end":140.763,"text":"好,我們來看一下為什麼想要提醒你們這件事情。請你們看一下這個表,因為食藥署應該會知道說每一年你們的中毒案量的統計是按計的是嗎?我們每個月都會有統計。每個月?那你現在手上有沒有數據至今已經11月,你有沒有到10月的數據?"},{"start":142.188,"end":168.715,"text":"跟委員報告我們大概是每一季會公布就是每個季底會公布上一季的結果因為衛生局他要去做案例的調查因為我現在只有到第一季就是說2024年到4月的食物中毒案量不是人數是中毒的案量就已經超過以前一整年的全年的案量那你有沒有到第二季的數據"},{"start":170.835,"end":190.551,"text":"目前統計中,那會話我們提供給委員。你心中有沒有超過去年,你只要告訴我這個就好了。報告委員,有今年的10宗統計案件確實比去年多。是,所以不是應該要更重視這件事,畢竟你們前瞻只有你們在編實案的預算。"},{"start":191.912,"end":217.854,"text":"跟委員報告我們食安不是光前瞻我們自己本預算還有食安五環那個行政院有給我們食安五環的預算在做食安之後我還會再跟你們要最新的數據一直到10月11月許多家長非常的遊行才剛公佈營養午餐不可以放咖哩因為又驗出違法的蘇丹紅還有這種動物體內的針頭流到加工廠又流到營養午餐的廠商"},{"start":218.875,"end":236.64,"text":"這些都是全民最關注的事情,我也希望大家可以在今年、明年繃緊神經,看要怎麼樣改善好嗎?是,我們會全力改善。我問一下,你們這個13億是不是大部分都拿來做食安署大樓的建設?"},{"start":238.018,"end":267.271,"text":"跟委員報告因為要有好的大樓空間還有新的儀器設備我們才有辦法落實食安的進行好這個我都可以理解但是您有知道現在地方第一線的食安稽查人力是嚴重吃緊嗎尤其是這個保齡事件之後這個臺北市衛生局稽查科貼招聘公告已經貼了5次到今年4月都補不滿還差兩個補到昨天我來"},{"start":268.051,"end":286.596,"text":"檢查我的質詢內容還是差兩位高雄市也在缺人桃園也在缺人我知道你需要新的大樓、新的儀器、新的設備可是如果你沒有想辦法解決你的預算可不可以編到他們地方政府疏解人力的這個部分呢?"},{"start":287.282,"end":309.614,"text":"報告委員那個稽查工作確實很辛苦啦齁那我們的食安計畫裡面有補助地方的稽查人力有確實是有另外食安五環是從前瞻是從另外的前瞻裡面有錢然後食安的五環裡面從5億提高到10億新的行政院長合併提高到10億所以給地方的補助都有"},{"start":310.174,"end":333.309,"text":"好,最後一題而已,一分鐘。也請部長注意齁,我們今天樓下在討論這個職場霸凌的事,也有人揭發說機關署的整備組組長,他有這樣土皇帝的行為。那羅一鈞說大概兩個月可以有報告,剛剛樓下這個勞動部說他們10天就可以有報告,你覺得像這樣子的事情需要拖到兩個月嗎?"},{"start":334.11,"end":346.127,"text":"我會要求那個機關署進速報告,因為他們已經成立小組,請外面跟內部的專家再了解,一定進速報告。好,謝謝主席,謝謝部長。謝謝。謝謝陳金輝委員。接著請吳立華委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2089,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（13時18分）主席、委員、各位官員好。我想請衛福部部長。"],["主席：好，邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。部長，今天本席想跟您一起關心一下食安的議題，因為之前我在質詢前瞻4期預算解凍的時候就有反映過這件事，1到4期的食安總經費只有占8,400億上限的0.47%規模，但我們在第4期解凍案處理之前就發現，從今年1月到現在食安的風暴不斷，所以提醒大家應該要正視這個問題，並且在前瞻第5期預算案還沒有拍板就必須要看到預算過低的問題，不然就會讓大家持續陷入食安風暴中。我想問一下，這次的前瞻第5期食安建設項目，除了衛福部之外，是不是沒有別的中央機關編列了？是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們有核定，關於食安有一個……"],["林副署長金富：第5期有增加，我們編列了……"],["邱部長泰源：前瞻的建設……請副署長來講一下。"],["林副署長金富：委員好，我是食藥署副署長。跟委員報告，我們食安的第5期有編列，編列了13.5億元，比第4期還要多，所以是有增加的，以上報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：不過13.5億元換算在前瞻總上限，占的比例只有0.15%，它的比例是下降的。"],["林副署長金富：我們是每一期比較啦！我們第5期跟第4期，第4期是編了14.4億，所以並沒有下降。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們來看一下為什麼想要提醒你們這件事情，請你們看這個表，因為食藥署應該會知道，每一年你們的中毒案量統計是按季的，是嗎？"],["林副署長金富：我們每個月都會有統計。"],["陳委員菁徽：每個月。"],["林副署長金富：對，都有統計。"],["陳委員菁徽：你現在手上有沒有數據？至今已經11月，你有沒有到10月的數據？"],["林副署長金富：我們大概是每一季會公布，就是每個季底會公布上一季的結果，因為衛生局它要去做案例的調查，所以需要時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為我現在只有到第1季，2024年到4月的食物中毒案量，不是人數，是中毒的案量，就已經超過以前一整年的全年案量，你有沒有到第2季的數據？"],["林副署長金富：目前統計中，會後我們提供給委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你心中有沒有超過去年？你只要告訴我這個就好了。"],["林副署長金富：報告委員，有，今年的食中統計案件確實比去年多。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，所以不是應該要更重視這件事？畢竟前瞻只有你們在編食安的預算欸！"],["林副署長金富：我們食安不是光前瞻，我們自己本預算還有食安五環，行政院有給我們食安五環的預算在做食安。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，之後我還會再跟你們要最新的數據，一直到10月、11月。"],["林副署長金富：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：許多家長非常地憂心，才剛公布營養午餐不可以放咖哩，因為又驗出違法的蘇丹紅，還有這種動物體內的針頭流到加工廠，又流到營養午餐的廠商，這些都是全民最關注的事情，我也希望大家可以在今年、明年繃緊神經，看要怎麼樣改善好嗎？"],["林副署長金富：是。"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們會全力改善。"],["陳委員菁徽：我問一下，你們這13億是不是大部分都拿來做食藥署大樓的建設？"],["林副署長金富：因為要有好的大樓空間，還有新的儀器設備，我們才有辦法落實食安的進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這個我都可以理解，但是您知道現在地方第一線的食安稽查人力是嚴重吃緊嗎？尤其是寶林事件之後，臺北市衛生局稽查科貼招聘公告已經貼了5次，到今年4月都補不滿，還差2個，補到昨天我來檢查我的質詢內容，還是差2位。高雄市也在缺人，桃園也在缺人，我知道你需要新的大樓、新的儀器、新的設備，可是如果你沒有想辦法解決，你的預算可不可以編到地方政府紓解人力的這個部分呢？"],["林副署長金富：報告委員，稽查工作確實很辛苦啦！我們的食安計畫裡面有補助地方的稽查人力，有，確實是有。另外，食安五環……"],["陳委員菁徽：不是從前瞻，是從另外的……"],["林副署長金富：前瞻裡面有錢，然後食安五環裡面，從5億提高到10億，新的行政院長核定提高到10億，所以給地方的補助都有。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，最後一題而已，1分鐘，也請部長注意。今天樓下在討論職場霸凌的事，也有人揭發疾管署的整備組組長有這樣土皇帝的行為，羅一鈞說大概2個月可以有報告，剛剛樓下勞動部說他們10天就可以有報告，你覺得像這樣子的事情需要拖到2個月嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我會要求疾管署儘速報告，因為他們已經成立小組，然後請外面跟內部的專家在瞭解，一定儘速報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","接著請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},{"id":"157195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157195","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eabdc705c328ef360fd1ff0707298ac1983d632f63170caf1df66d4deb5ed01280b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"13:09:30 - 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提一千零八三十一億欸 這樣 如果說提一百七百空七億欸 一萬不用提就不夠了我們現在大部分說前面來協讀啦 我要跟你沖水 結出六百八十一億 你也幫我一些不要用什麼來講話 不然我們改天我跟你們對質一下 來問一下看這樣有合理沒合理好不好 那有一些數據我們在會後再來核對一下這樣好不好 還要再講啦 不想要講完啦"},{"start":269.633,"end":281.823,"text":"那張表你再仔細看,可能看起來比較少,以後做大一點。我一樣的嘉峪縣、屏東縣及廟內縣,我用這個三個縣市做比較,這個叫做五級財政。廟內縣加鐵100公倍億,加議館鐵276億。"},{"start":293.514,"end":306.97,"text":"併同款貼兩百十六億,當然他貼到錢,還有同仇分配款本到錢,有夠啊,他現有,現利揮揮的。未來關不是你們的,就這樣求負。我把你們攤到這裡,你們也把我們手補走一個,鼓勵一個。"},{"start":314.524,"end":340.137,"text":"委員 這個部分是國發會的分配啦 國發會 我在政治委員會啦 哈 推來推去 您是很會推的 我所以好好會監督啦您不是在國發會 當然我當初是努力在開創地方優良的投資環境 我會解開到多久呢 但是我歲數已經回來了嘛"},{"start":341.175,"end":342.317,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":356.619,"end":357.039,"text":"有董事長喔?"},{"start":388.939,"end":396.868,"text":"主席長、財政部長,我苦苦抱怨,我做哈固的民意代表一寸一寸,人家又這樣,跟公平一點好不好?"},{"start":399.128,"end":419.283,"text":"內政部的董事長委員好苗栗縣的警察局在蓋是最終核定是內政部以前瞻第4期要補給苗栗補治14.多億對對嗎?已經補了怎麼說要補完?已經補過了你現在還補11億而已?不,管府已經同意了已經開始興建了啊!我們是忍耐,你就是這樣求福"},{"start":425.908,"end":441.895,"text":"你現在還有人這樣很強辯的,你叫他們補充給我做。那個蔣正石要來跟我講,一直來拜託,他們連怕部長,他們蔣事長怕被換掉,這樣的執行立法,我是很不敢玩的。"},{"start":444.064,"end":462.137,"text":"您怎麼這樣講話?您的公文是同意補資14.8億捏?是。啊你們怎麼只要補資苗栗縣11.4億?啊物價上漲,我們現在自己苗栗縣要去你經測局的總局?警察、縣警察是屬於中央的?"},{"start":463.863,"end":464.343,"text":"委員報告．議員報告．議員報告"},{"start":482.728,"end":497.64,"text":"您的奧委,您又覺得您對?你以為新來新有氣象喔?不是這樣做。是。警察局、縣警察局屬於中央的。地方出行人給你企業的。你實際上地方要企業來行的。要出來行。這樣更不合理。"},{"start":502.783,"end":530.19,"text":"您以前別的情願補助,您來了解一下,您把您保證好好做。不要以為他有靠山喔。沒有啦,我們現在要跟他約啦,沒有辦法啦,不然警察要蓋就一次蓋好了啦。您再去那裡,沒力,明後天我等您,到我辦公室來,為討文件對一次,好不好?好,謝謝。"},{"start":532.743,"end":535.899,"text":"好 謝謝陳昌明委員 接著我們請陳金規委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2033,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（13時9分）謝謝主席，首先有請主計處。"],["主席：陳主計長。"],["陳委員超明：還有財政部。"],["主席：陳署長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：陳主計長，其實前瞻計畫到第4期已經差不多尾聲了，也就是要做檢討的時候，我今天怎麼會站在這裡呢？除了苗栗縣受到很多不公平的待遇，大家都覺得苗栗縣的財政困難，苗栗縣被你們財政部及主計處監控，我現在請你看一個表，我現在很簡單，就以5年度（108年到112年度）、以5級縣市苗栗縣、嘉義縣、屏東縣來做比較，這5年之內，苗栗縣的創稅給中央是1,387億，嘉義縣354億，屏東縣898億。108年到112年苗栗縣得到中央的補助，就是一般補助款跟統籌分配款，苗栗縣707億，嘉義縣841億，屏東縣1,231億，我苗栗縣替你們中央多賺680億，你們的嘉義縣要再補貼它487億，你們的屏東縣要再補貼它333億，這樣公平嗎？所以我一直講，有替你中央創稅的盈餘，你起碼也鼓勵我們一下，5級縣市每次向你們要錢，向你們討錢，好像乞丐在向你們討，實在是討得很不甘願，討得很不爽。","主計長，這個都有確實的數據，你放心，我十幾年都用這個表，你們從來都不改，顏色太重，我說有努力的孩子始終沒有糖可以吃，你們這個政府到底是怎麼看的？你們不要互相望，以前的主計長都很老奸，現在這個表給你看，讓你瞭解，因為第4期了，大概都已經確定了，所以我希望新任的主計長跟財政部長多多可憐苗栗縣，但是我們努力奮發向上，每年都創造稅收，以前借的錢今天這個成果已經展現了，所以我希望你以後多多關心苗栗縣，主計長，你的看法怎麼樣？你從南部上來，都不知道苗栗縣。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，114年度的部分，苗栗其實是比去年成長了11.7%。"],["陳委員超明：怎樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就是說一般性補助還有中央統籌分配稅整個加起來，它比去年成長11.7%，比一般的縣市還高，所以其實我們在……"],["陳委員超明：哪有比一般縣市還要高，我剛剛拿給你看的這個數據是112年，113年不可能那麼高，你不要唬我，我是今年還沒有看你們的錢是多少，還沒有結算出來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：以屏東來講，屏東才成長7%哦！我們是以……"],["陳委員超明：它現在拿夠了，它以前拿這麼多錢，多……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們以114年度和113年度比較。"],["陳委員超明：它拿1,231億耶！苗栗縣才拿707億，它現在不用拿就足夠了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們現在大部分是儘量來協助。"],["陳委員超明：我幫你們創稅多出680億，你也分我一些，不要這麼來講話，不然改天我跟你對質一下，問看看這樣合不合理，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，委員，有一些數據我們在會後再來核對一下，這樣好不好？"],["陳委員超明：來到這裡，不太甘願啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝、謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？你們要稍微體諒一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員超明：再來，那一張表你再仔細看，可能看起來比較小，以後做大一點。一樣是嘉義縣、屏東縣及苗栗縣，我用這3個縣市做比較，這個叫做5級財政，苗栗縣才拿108億，嘉義縣拿226億，屏東縣拿216億，當然它拿得比較多，還有統籌分配款分得比較多，它足夠了，它很油、很綠、肥肥的，苗栗縣不是你們的就這樣欺負，我幫你們賺那麼多錢，你也給我們稍微補助一下、鼓勵一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，這個部分是國發會在分配。"],["陳委員超明：國發會，我在經濟委員會啦！推來推去，你們實在很會推，所以我會好好監督。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員超明：你不是在國發會，當然我當初是努力在開路，創造地方優良的投資環境，我會花比較多錢，但是我稅收已經回來了嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方也是要提計畫啦！"],["陳委員超明：我們有提計畫，每次都被打掉，你看到苗栗縣顏色就不好啊！因為它比較藍，講到這個，有時候我要說出來，不然你們不會看。你看，綠的拿那麼多，藍的拿那麼少，我故意用顏色顯示出來給你看，你還沒有看出來，我是不想點得那麼明，因為你們剛來當主計長、當署長，我不想講得那麼明，這是讓你們瞭解你還看不出來，好不好？改進改進一下，不要這樣偏袒的心理。","內政部的代表有沒有來？"],["主席：有，董次長。"],["陳委員超明：主計長、財政部署長，我是苦口婆心，我當那麼久的民意代表，一清二楚，不要再這樣子啦！公平一點，好不好？","內政部的董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：苗栗縣的警察局在蓋，最終核定是內政部以前瞻第4期要撥給苗栗，補助十四點多億，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對，已經補了。"],["陳委員超明：哪有補完？"],["董次長建宏：已經補過了，市府已經……"],["陳委員超明：你們現在只有補11億而已。"],["董次長建宏：沒有，縣府已經同意了，已經開始興建了。"],["陳委員超明：啊！我們是忍耐，你們就是這樣欺負，你現在還是一樣很強辯欸！你叫你們部長好好地做！警政署來跟我講，一直來拜託，他們很怕部長，警政署長怕被換掉，對這樣的執行率我是非常不甘願。你不要這麼講話，你的公文是同意補助14.8億欸！"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["陳委員超明：你們怎麼只有補助苗栗縣11.4億？物價上漲，現在苗栗縣要蓋你警察局的總局，縣警察局屬於中央的，你跟你們部長再說一下，大家一樣都當過立委。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，總共的經費是14億，其中中央補助十一億多，苗栗縣政府同意2億多的自籌，這是……"],["陳委員超明：你們以前一紙公文下來，全額補助14.8億。"],["董次長建宏：這是苗栗縣政府同意的，公文已經給我們了。"],["陳委員超明：我拿那個公文給你看！你硬拗的，還覺得你們對，你以為新來有新氣象哦？不是這樣做。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["陳委員超明：縣警察局屬於中央的，地方出錢替你們蓋耶！你14億，地方要出6億，這樣合理嗎？你以前別的怎樣補助，你去瞭解一下，你跟你們部長說，要好好地做。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，總共是14億……"],["陳委員超明：不要以為他有靠山哦！"],["董次長建宏：這裡面中央是11億，地方是二億多。"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦！我們現在要6億，沒有辦法啦！不然警察局要蓋就一次蓋好啦！你們再去確認，不然明後天我等你，到我辦公室來，從頭把文件對一次，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員。","接著請陳菁徽委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},{"id":"157194","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157194","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab2ec09d80356e6eb91ff0707298ac1983d632f63170caf1df9258d6461fda9c085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"13:03:14 - 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下一位諮詢 請葉元之委員麻煩請經濟部長請經濟部 郭部長"},{"start":24.609,"end":42.65,"text":"今天大家都非常好奇就是說為什麼你對台積電特別有興趣啊?可不可以講一下為什麼你對台積電會有興趣?對台積電有興趣因為台積電是台灣的護國神山嘛對當然啦那你一直要去了解什麼?你不是去熊本嗎?然後去幫忙這是幫忙什麼事?"},{"start":44.139,"end":70.109,"text":"幫忙他第一個台積電是從台灣第一個到日本這麼大投資的公司對我們當然希望他在那你做什麼具體有幫助到他的事情幫助他對不然你去幹嘛我當時瞭解他適不適應瞭解他適不適應那後來瞭解狀況怎麼樣瞭解他的狀況還不錯還不錯就是還不錯其實我對日本是非常瞭解的我大概這一輩子工作了50年"},{"start":72.432,"end":93.9,"text":"49年都是跟日本在玩的。 台積電是我以前就非常熟悉的公司,但是台積電過去在日本並琢磨的不深,特別是在九州地區。九州是一個比較保守的地區,不像東京或者是名古屋或者大阪,是比較接觸國外比較多的。"},{"start":94.6,"end":116.928,"text":"所以在九州地區唯一接觸比較多的﹖不想那個因為我時間非常有限那個昭緯對我很不友善大家看過了你就直接講你到底去看了什麼然後幫助到台積電什麼嘛因為你現在不是商人嘛你現在是部長嘛部長就是政府的職位你去協助一個護國參謀當然很棒可是你講一下你到底"},{"start":118.549,"end":140.105,"text":"你不是說我去觀光我去了解然後以後回到業界之後這些知識對我有幫助我在部長累積到我未來做生意的知識這樣不行嗎對不起委員那我來跟你報告你很簡單講一下好不好好因為台積電去到日本被要求60%的材料是要從日本買的是"},{"start":140.825,"end":154.536,"text":"但是台積電在台灣他們發展60%的材料是跟台灣買的是所以我要幫助台灣的供應鏈進入到日本現在進入不了嗎沒有進入不了但是你進去那現在成效怎麼樣你進去"},{"start":156.829,"end":176.536,"text":"你進去然後你還不要幫助他我懂了我懂了所以你的意思是說你去不是幫助台積電啦你去是幫助台灣的供應鏈的廠商去被日本的人買嘛那現在成效怎麼樣成效還沒開始還沒開始你們都不讓我去啊那你去就那你設定的成效是怎麼樣"},{"start":177.116,"end":178.997,"text":"上一次在我們院會的時候你特別請假禮拜二到禮拜五跑去熊本故意迴避總諮詢"},{"start":196.17,"end":209.985,"text":"為什麼那一次為什麼那一次要特別請2到5因為2到5就可以迴避嘛你為什麼不是1到4為什麼不是假日去那你去現在問你成效如何你說因為你們不讓我去所以講不出的說意所以你一個一年要去幾次你才滿意"},{"start":211.476,"end":229.789,"text":"答標為止答標那去幾次要去幾次嘛那要去對阿我現在覺得你是去玩的阿因為你就拿不出具體成像出來阿對不起這個委員你看我去玩我再跟你請教我給你因為你沒有講我去都有報告去都有報告你剛剛就講不出來我跟你講如果說"},{"start":233.251,"end":246.3,"text":"明確答案很明確的話部長不是因為你從外開空開你從盤古開源開始講起我們問的都很明確我們時間很有我們時間很有限如果我今天有20分鐘如果今天是一個談話會我讓你慢慢講那我們時間很有限那我再跟你請教一下因為美國商務部說啦有66億美元是補助台積電在美國的"},{"start":255.151,"end":277.852,"text":"然後希望臺電的A16先進技術製程要在美國,您有掌握到這個事嗎?我知道那你覺得這對台灣會有什麼影響?沒有影響那是好的影響嗎?啊?因為我剛在別的地方,你們次長講說這是好的影響當然啊為什麼?因為他還需要台灣啊所以,那會不會讓台灣的產業外移?不可能啊,不可能啊不可能A16的這個研發室在台灣有8000人對"},{"start":280.253,"end":283.396,"text":"阿 要完整的技術才有辦法移轉過去阿好 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保證我講完了來 春泥你來保證委員我還要聽保證講好"},{"start":273.323,"end":300.24,"text":"從嘉義到台南到高雄到屏東確實這段時間整個科技業難移的現象非常的明顯那我們整體的南部這個南台灣的這個貨運的這個思考我們也做整體在思考啦以南部的這個科技業的未來的這個運量有在做思考所以我們整體都會來做一個規劃那委員您今天在建議就是說嘉義機場的部分我們未來也納入這個考量裡面"},{"start":300.56,"end":329.038,"text":"所以部長你們現在已經有在做南部貨運的一個國際線的一個規劃嘛對不對現在只是說每一個地方都有它的一個優勢當然也有它不利的地方我們嘉義有機場臺南也有機場那屏東高雄也有一個小港機場但是部長我跟你講一個關鍵點嘉義的一個優勢啦我們這叫做落後的優勢你要在臺南在高雄你發展貨運機場你沒有辦法突破宵禁這一塊啊是是是"},{"start":329.298,"end":329.538,"text":"你沒辦法面對這一塊嘛"},{"start":345.578,"end":364.738,"text":"所以我們這裡依舊有這個我們水上那裡基本上還不到那麼多的人口數要面對宵禁的相對於方便如果我們這個貨運的積散可以給地方帶來新的一些發展的契機居民也許會同意這個宵禁的一些干擾"},{"start":365.419,"end":384.074,"text":"所以我覺得這很多因素疊加起來嘉義的水上機場是得天獨我覺得部長你們在做整體的未來南部貨運國際線的時候戰略思考的時候慎重來思考我們的水上機場好不好水上機場明明就好聽水上的機場咧聽到這個人說有台灣很厲害我們飛機都在水上機場大家說這台灣有夠強這樣好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1189,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時13分）謝謝主席！有請我們交通部部長以及民用航空局局長。"],["主席：請陳部長和何局長。"],["蔡委員易餘：同時請航政司司長。"],["主席：請司長。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我先給你看一個統計表，依據這個統計表可看出現在臺灣機場貨運第一名是桃園，有166萬噸，跟第二名的臺北和高雄都有很大的距離，從這個表也可看出桃園機場貨運量占了臺灣貨運的95.94%，剩下的臺北、高雄、臺中、澎湖幾乎只占了不到5%，而且這不到5%裡又以國內貨運為多，也就是我們臺灣的國際貨運可能超過99%以上都在桃園，這是為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實在航空業他們有一個疊加的效應，當各國的航班比較多經過那個機場的時候，他們有時候會有貨物交換或者是集貨的動作，所以它會有一個聚集的效果。"],["蔡委員易餘：主要是集貨啦！當然是因為集貨的一個方便性，畢竟桃園機場的航線比較多，因為航線多所以他們在貨運轉運的時候當然是相對方便。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯，它有它的優勢。"],["蔡委員易餘：但這也呈現出來我們臺灣在於貨運這一塊重度依賴桃園，相對的其他機場的功能性沒有被彰顯出來，因此自然而然臺灣除了桃園是一個比較完整、符合貨運的機場外，其他機場在貨運的基本配備相對也不夠。剛才跟部長講的是大問題，現在我要回到我的質詢重點，我要講的就是我們臺灣應該要有一個戰略布局，以現在台積電的布局來看，你看他現在在熊本就有布局一個晶片廠，早上我在跟經濟部長對談的時候，我也跟他聊到了說是不是類似這樣的晶片廠，最後他們要被使用前要經過封裝，此時它有可能會考慮去高雄的像日月光這樣的封裝廠或者是台積電自己未來很重要的CoWoS先進封裝廠，所以不管是在哪裡製造的晶片，最後就是需要去一個封裝的基地，那嘉義正好就是未來台積電CoWoS的重點基地。","如果是這樣，我現在要跟部長提出一個想法，就是我們嘉義有一個水上機場，我們可以看一下水上機場的條件，它現在是軍民合用的機場，基本上這個機場的跑道長度不會輸給其他機場，你看跑道長度跟臺南機場一樣，跟小港也一樣，比花蓮機場和臺中機場的跑道長度還要長，我們知道嘉義機場過去也有跑過幾次包機，當然是次數很少，少之又少，是不定期的包機，但是如果以剛剛我講的晶圓，然後跟日本熊本的一日生活圈的概念，它卻是未來可以發展成國際貨運機場的，把台積電納入我們晶片生產的範圍，因為臺灣要成為全世界科技產品的日不落國，要日不落國當然國際貨運就很重要囉！所以未來我們的嘉義機場有沒有可能在部長的領導之下，加強它整個貨運的裝載？將包括裝櫃、拆櫃、裝盤、拆盤、裝車、卸車這些基本配備做好，布局起來，未來一定會有航空公司發現可以從嘉義來做貨運的起降，不用在桃園再去等，相對於其他是方便的，尤其對於科技公司來說。部長，我講完了，剩下的讓你發揮。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，從嘉義到臺南到高雄到屏東，確實這段時間整個科技業南移的現象非常的明顯，那我們對南臺灣的貨運也在做整體的思考，就是以南部科技業未來的運量在做思考，所以我們整體都會來做一個規劃，委員您今天建議嘉義機場的部分，我們未來也會納入考量。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長你們現在已經有在做南部貨運國際線的規劃，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，現在有在做這樣的思考和討論。"],["蔡委員易餘：只是說每個地方都自有其優勢，當然也有不利的地方。"],["陳部長世凱：我們嘉義有機場，臺南有機場，屏東、高雄也有一個小港機場。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是我要跟部長講一個關鍵點，嘉義的一個優勢，我們叫做落後的優勢，你要在臺南、在高雄發展貨運機場，沒有辦法突破宵禁這一塊，那邊的人口那麼多，宵禁這塊是很嚴肅的問題，那裡的機場附近幾乎就是都市，你看高雄小港機場下去就是都市，你沒辦法面對這一塊，所以我們嘉義就有這個優勢，水上那邊基本上還不到那麼多的人口數，要面對宵禁相對於方便，如果我們這個貨運的集散可以給地方帶來新的一些發展契機，居民也許會同意宵禁的一些干擾，所以我覺得有很多因素疊加起來，嘉義的水上機場是得天獨厚，部長你們在對未來南部貨運國際線做戰略思考的時候，請慎重來思考我們的水上機場。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，納入考量。"],["蔡委員易餘：何況水上機場名字都好聽，「水上的機場」聽到這個人家都會說臺灣夠厲害，飛機都是在水上起落，大家會說臺灣有夠強。這樣好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","接下來有請王美惠委員、王美惠、王美惠委員不在。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆、賴士葆委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決議：第一、報告及詢答完畢；第二、委員王美惠、蔡其昌所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報；第三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料及未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復；第四、討論事項第一案到第三案，也就是相關民航局單位預算、民航事業基金分預算還有桃機公司營業預算這三案，我們另外擇期進行處理；委員預算提案於12月5號（禮拜四）中午12點截止收件。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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陳部長"},{"start":13.956,"end":37.154,"text":"部長好委員好我們今天是討論那個危險天氣對於飛航的影響大家都非常支持飛航應該要安全但今天我想會排這個報告應該有一個原因一個起源是因為11月4號的時候當時已經有颱風所以有一些航空公司他可能重落地大家開始檢討說這個問題要怎麼去解決讓我們的飛航更加安全"},{"start":37.854,"end":49.768,"text":"我當時看到部長是有對媒體震怒你是說是因為業者沒有落實保守派遣我個人認為保守派遣是一句幹話什麼叫保守派遣部長"},{"start":51.133,"end":70.678,"text":"保守派遣就是航空公司必須要評估那一天的天氣的狀況大家不要太勉強去派遣那不然你知道那一天那一天被你罵的那個業者之外還有其他業者那天也都有飛嘛其他家包括長榮包括華航可能他們飛的班機還要更多啦"},{"start":71.218,"end":93.994,"text":"是所以所以我不知道我覺得講保守派講感覺是第一是比例上的問題啦確實那一天不是 這不是比例的問題啦數量的問題嘛因為如果說很危險的話大家數量都要控制嘛你的意思不是說我原本我的班機多所以我就按比例減少我們的調查是所有的航空公司國航的航空公司都在調查不是針對某一間航空公司"},{"start":94.634,"end":112.521,"text":"我只是想說你要講一個方案出來那要能夠落實啦保守派遣這四個字很難落實因為原本航空公司它能飛不能飛它有一定的準則嘛比如說它的能見度是要可以看到幾公尺然後它的風速多少機長才會決定要飛或不飛嘛大概會秉持這個原則"},{"start":114.022,"end":133.016,"text":"而且這個原則是各家不太一樣有的業者他比如說他如果覺得不太能夠降落的時候他可以直接飛走他可以直接飛走就不降落有的業者是說好像他要先試個一次兩次之後才能直接飛走每一家的做法也都不一樣所以你喊出一個保守派遣那到底保守派遣到底是什麼意思"},{"start":133.616,"end":149.025,"text":"是說我只要比我原本的規定保守就好還是說我們國家訂一個標準出來要比我們國家訂的標準保守這其實這幾個字我覺得要講得很精準啊所以我是不太知道說你講說保守派遣到底是什麼意思啊"},{"start":150.185,"end":173.431,"text":"到底做得到還是做不到就我的了解喔那一天中落地的我們會特別啟動調查是因為那一天我不是在討論你要不要調查包含重飛包含這個轉降的比例是比過去的其他颱風更高我現在不是在針對那個個案說要不要調查問題我在講說既然你排了這個專案報告你就要拿出具體能夠把這問題解決的方案出來"},{"start":173.831,"end":187.657,"text":"因為保守派遣四個字我覺得那個就是一個很空洞很抽象的講法就像當時那一天非常多飛機在飛有很多飛機在上面盤旋那為什麼它重落地主要原因是因為它落地的時候有一個很大的側風"},{"start":188.854,"end":213.058,"text":"那那個冊封不是一直有啊那就剛好降落的時候有冊封然後你就把他歸咎於說是因為他沒有保守派遣我覺得這樣的歸因太抽象了實際上應該要定一個具體的辦法出來如果你只是跟業者呼籲說你們要保守派遣我跟部長講他不可能的嘛為什麼因為第一個機師的薪水很高啊第二個你如果"},{"start":213.758,"end":240.349,"text":"交通部沒有一個立場態度說今天停飛的話乘客會覺得說為什麼你不飛還有就是其他家都有飛為什麼只有你不飛他會有很多問題出來還有再加上為什麼氣象署給的報告都不準這也是一個很重要的問題所以不是說罵業者你能沒有保守派遣問題就在業者而是說我們今天交通部甚至氣象署也要提高自己的準確度那交通部怎麼把那個準則定的那天沒有不準的問題"},{"start":241.169,"end":259.08,"text":"而且我們每個航站他自己都有氣象的單位就是交通部也要第一個準則出來因為你說你只是講個保守派遣我覺得業者保不保守自由新政啊到底要多保守該怎麼保守然後這個是看他啊所以交通部不是推給人家就沒事啦"},{"start":260.029,"end":283.676,"text":"我想跟還是跟委員再說明一下保守派遣就是因為颱風很難預測那剛剛委員所說的都對就是說每一個公司機型不同大小不同其實他的一個派遣的準則也不一樣那我們這一次的康瑞颱風跟前兩次來比的話那其實前兩次的重飛比較少這一次的重飛比較多那再來我們四家國籍裡面"},{"start":284.216,"end":311.584,"text":"向虎航道一點他就自己決定下午就沒有再飛了所以每一家的派遣確實是不同然後也因為機型不同那我們會說保守派遣就是說既然颱風那麼難預測那你航空公司在派遣的時候就要特別掌握及時的資訊然後讓航機可以往後或者是往前盡量不要在那個颱風因為颱風的側風或者是各方面陣風都是很難預測所以為什麼要保守如果比例"},{"start":312.064,"end":332.081,"text":"我想你講的也都對啦但是很難操作啦你講他們不會不做啦但是實際上就不容易操作所以講包派錢這一句話就是都是一句廢話啦要就定出具體辦法出來第二個很簡單問一下因為之前我有關心我們那個太阪輕軌嘛那我們新北市已經把核心性研究再一次送到交通部去了啦"},{"start":332.401,"end":350.342,"text":"那那時候部長你有那時候剛來你有承諾我說你會立刻只要收到案子之後開專案會議就一次把他們對那那個專案會議開了嘛因為又過20天了因為那時候那時候有講到就是說我本來就會針對每一個縣市政府他所送來的案子我們會做審查那目前在部裡面正在審查"},{"start":351.38,"end":370.729,"text":"部長那時候我們講的是說因為這個案子已經拖很久拖一兩年了嘛然後而且每一次問題都是一次發現一個問題拖回去另外發現一個問題拖回去另外發現一個問題拖回去那時候我跟你講的時候你也有認同說我們是不是一次吧開一個專案會議我有特別跟我們部內的單位有交代就是說這一次如果還有什麼問題需要求證請大家一次來討論對對對 那個討論會開了嘛"},{"start":373.01,"end":396.941,"text":"目前正在研議當中那大概什麼時候會有?您知道這個細節嗎?因為搞不好你不知道這個細節我不知道那是不是有相關單位的有來?沒有來?沒有來?那這樣子部長你回去幫我們關心一下好不好?就是這個案子已經送去了然後不要再像以前一樣就一直退就是有什麼問題一次然後那個賄賂還沒開的話可不可以早點開因為真的拖很久了我請他們加速審查好謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1143,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時6分）麻煩請交通部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：我們今天討論危險天氣對於飛航的影響，大家都非常支持飛航應該要安全，我想今天會排這個報告應該有一個原因、一個起源，是因為11月4號當時因為有颱風，所以有一些航空公司可能有重落地的情形，大家開始檢討說這個問題要怎麼去解決，讓我們的飛航更加安全。我當時看到部長有對媒體表示震怒，你說是因為業者沒有落實保守派遣，我個人認為保守派遣是一句幹話，什麼叫保守派遣？"],["陳部長世凱：保守派遣就是航空公司必須要評估那一天的天氣狀況，大家不要太勉強去派遣，應該不派遣就不要派遣。"],["葉委員元之：部長知道那天除了被你罵的那個業者之外，還有其他業者當天也都有飛嗎？其他家包括長榮、包括華航，可能他們飛的班機還要更多，所以我覺得講保守派遣感覺是……"],["陳部長世凱：第一是比例上的問題，確實那一天我們經調查……"],["葉委員元之：這不是比例的問題啦！數量的問題嘛！你的意思是如果說很危險的話，那麼大家的數量都要控制，不是說我原本的班機多，所以我就按比例減少。"],["陳部長世凱：我們的調查是對所有的航空公司─國航的航空公司都在調查，不是針對某一間航空公司。"],["葉委員元之：我只是想說你講一個方案出來要能夠落實，「保守派遣」這四個字很難落實，因為航空公司對能飛、不能飛原本有一定的準則，比如說能見度是要可以看到幾公尺、風速多少，機長才會決定要飛或不飛，大概會秉持這個原則，而且這個原則是各家不太一樣，有的業者如果覺得不太能夠降落的時候，他可以直接飛走，就不降落；有的業者是說要先試個一次、兩次之後才能直接飛走，每一家的作法也都不一樣，所以你喊出一個「保守派遣」，到底保守派遣是什麼意思？是說只要比我原本的規定保守就好？還是說我們國家訂一個標準出來，要比我們國家訂的標準保守？其實這幾個字我覺得要講得很精準，所以我是不太知道你講的「保守派遣」到底是什麼意思，到底做得到還是做不到？就我的瞭解那一天……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這次康芮颱風我們會特別啟動調查是因為那一天……"],["葉委員元之：我不是在討論你要不要調查。"],["陳部長世凱：包含重飛、包含轉降的比例是比過去的其他颱風更高。"],["葉委員元之：我現在不是在針對那個個案要不要調查的問題，我講的是既然你排了這個專案報告，就要拿出具體能夠把問題解決的方案出來，因為「保守派遣」四個字我覺得就是一個很空洞、很抽象的講法，就像那一天非常多飛機在飛，有很多飛機在上面盤旋，那為什麼它會重落地？主要原因是因為它落地的時候有一個很大的側風，那個側風不是一直有，就剛好降落的時候有側風，然後你就把這個歸咎於是因為他沒有保守派遣，我覺得這樣的歸因太抽象了，實際上應該要定一個具體的辦法出來，如果你只是跟業者呼籲說你們要保守派遣，我跟部長講，那是不可能的嘛！為什麼？第一個，因為機師的薪水很高；第二個，如果交通部沒有一個立場態度說今天停飛的話，乘客會覺得說為什麼你不飛，會質疑其他家都有飛為什麼只有你不飛，他們會有很多問題；再加上為什麼氣象署給的報告都不準？這也是一個很重要問題，所以不是說罵業者你們沒有保守派遣，問題就歸在業者，而是我們交通部甚至氣象署也要提高自己的準確度，交通部怎麼把那個準則定的……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那天沒有不準的問題，而且我們每個航站自己都有氣象的單位，會隨時提供訊息出來。"],["葉委員元之：交通部也要訂一個準則出來，你只是講「保守派遣」，我覺得業者保不保守是自由心證，到底要多保守？該怎麼保守？這個就看他啊！所以交通部不是推給人家就沒事了。"],["何局長淑萍：我還是跟委員再說明一下，保守派遣就是因為颱風很難預測，剛剛委員所說的都對，每一個公司機型不同、大小不同，其實派遣準則也不一樣，這一次的康芮颱風跟前兩次來比的話，其實前兩次的重飛比較少，這一次的重飛比較多。再來我們四家國籍航空公司裡面，像虎航到1點就自己決定下午不再飛了，所以每一家的派遣確實是不同，然後機型也不同。我們之所以會說保守派遣就是既然颱風那麼難預測，航空公司在派遣的時候就要特別掌握即時的資訊，讓航機可以往後或者是往前，因為颱風的側風或者是各方面陣風都是很難預測的，這就是為什麼要保守，如果比例……"],["葉委員元之：我想你講的也都對，但是很難操作啦！"],["何局長淑萍：這就是要慢慢精進。"],["葉委員元之：你講了他們不會不做，但實際上就是不容易操作，所以講「保守派遣」這句話就是一句廢話啦！要不就訂出具體辦法出來。","第二個問題很簡單地問一下，之前我有關心我們那個泰板輕軌，新北市已經把可行性研究再一次送到交通部去了，那時候部長剛來，有承諾我說只要收到案子之後會立刻開專案會議。"],["陳部長世凱：我們內部在審查當中。"],["葉委員元之：那個專案會議開了嗎？因為已經又過了20天了，那時候有講到說……"],["陳部長世凱：我們本來就會針對每個縣市政府送來的案子做審查，目前正在部裡面審查中。"],["葉委員元之：部長，那時候我們講的是因為這個案子已經拖了很久，拖一兩年了嘛！然後每次都是一次發現一個問題退回去，另外發現一個問題又退回去，另外發現一個問題再退回去，我跟你講的時候你有認同說我們是不是開一個專案會議。"],["陳部長世凱：我對部內的單位有交代，就是說這一次如果還有什麼問題需要糾正，大家一次性的來討論。"],["葉委員元之：一次解決，對，那個討論會開了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前正在研議當中。"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候會有結論？你知道這個細節嗎？因為搞不好你不知道。"],["陳部長世凱：這個細節我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：今天是不是有相關單位的來列席？沒有來？"],["陳部長世凱：今天列席的是我們的民航局。"],["葉委員元之：那請部長回去幫我們關心一下，好不好？就是這個案子已經送去了，不要再像以前一樣一直退件，有什麼問題一次解決，那個會如果還沒開的話，可不可以早點開，因為真的拖很久了。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我請他們加速審查。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","接下來有請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","下一位請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我請國防部次長 楊次長好 請國防部次長次長 所有人好我給部長寫下一個啦 我看他是店嘛有人說這個案件是洪仲修的2.0版"},{"start":32.455,"end":48.546,"text":"你們那個國防部以前洪仲秋這個案子我很注意那個書叫做不當管教不當管教後來檢調查了是我們指揮官也被拔掉了所以你對於勞動部這一次的事情"},{"start":49.306,"end":78.259,"text":"你的看法怎麼樣?報告召委,這個勞動部的這個事情我實在是不便發表個人的在這個地方發表個人的看法但是對於洪仲秋這個事情的確是一個令人遺憾的事情那國防部對這個事情發生之後我們也做了相關的檢討那不管是司法調查或是我們自己內部調查方面都還給這個事情都把這個事情給還原了把這個事情的真相給釐清了那跟召委報告"},{"start":79.983,"end":83.533,"text":"我們軍中還有我們警察、警戒"},{"start":85.083,"end":111.459,"text":"還有我們的外交部都一直層出不窮傳出很多海外的像橫濱的處長也是自殺身亡那當然跟我們派在那邊的大使有沒有關係大家各說各話然後巴西外館也出問題那警察裡面像屏東也有警察所長跟警員"},{"start":113.314,"end":128.371,"text":"吵吵鬧鬧什麼都有所以對於這種公務體系的這種失控跟脫序的行為我們軍中看法怎麼樣你們要怎麼做往後怎麼做"},{"start":130.632,"end":141.701,"text":"這個合理的管教包括委員合理的管教還有這個善待部署照顧官兵這是我們國防部一直在努力的目標那也跟各位委員還有各位委員報告這個軍隊是一個跟民間"},{"start":146.445,"end":165.536,"text":"或是公部門管理有點區隔的這個管理的方式是有點區隔的因為我們講求的是絕對服從我們的軍人將來在戰場上面一定要執行保國衛民的責任在某種訓練上面我們要講求絕對服從在某種管理上面我們也必須要嚴格有相當的紀律這個要特別跟委員做報告了"},{"start":165.916,"end":166.837,"text":"我當海軍陸戰隊的我們以前叫合理的叫做"},{"start":183.606,"end":183.946,"text":"那部長請上來吧"},{"start":206.6,"end":234.005,"text":"你好你今天剛才曾經霸凌520今天11月20號剛才霸凌霸凌裡面你覺得你自己我看你是盡心盡力啦你自己這樣分手我扒過分我想我不及格啦我承認我不及格我覺得這件事情你的部分我查理"},{"start":236.754,"end":257.774,"text":"會否發生事情有人向你通報有沒有人通報給你如果你都不知道被資訊被Block掉那你就無理直言那時候知道說這個資訊這個反應有起的那你沒處理那你就你不對了那你感覺你是怎樣你是完全不知道還是"},{"start":263.32,"end":284.224,"text":"早上一直執行到現在聽太多了聽太多了有的是說他這個分署長肚子很硬什麼不管我有去查啦他的身家背景、他的娘家、他的婆家我已經都查了我那不錯啦我那經濟民情好沒做這個討論沒吃這個討論也沒關係啦也沒關係齁所以在這裡是在表演在做表演就對了"},{"start":292.355,"end":299.838,"text":"那你如果說你當部長是政務官是要對政策負責那裡面的內控"},{"start":302.295,"end":326.87,"text":"這些下面反映的事情你是怎麼來接受這些管道或者是如果你沒有再繼續因為太龐大了 人員太多了就一個勞動發展署就包括業聘僱人員就有兩千多人那是很多啊 怕死人喔所有的員額裡面真的公務人員占不到四分之一其他都是業聘僱的"},{"start":328.567,"end":354.66,"text":"那我們公務體系的業聘僱人員真的養太多了而且那個勞動條件也不太好待遇也不太好像我們食藥署在邊境查驗的資訊都很假的每天都被窮犯在海關那裡寸步難行那我們勞動力發展署這邊或是勞動部這邊如果是有這樣子的話我是覺得要檢討啦"},{"start":356.243,"end":372.017,"text":"那如果是薪水太低也要給人家高啦那我覺得公務人員齁我這裡要跟大家肯定啦大家都磕磕磕磕到要死啊磕磕磕到要死要來這裡上這個班齁那薪水也不在外面啦在外在醫療這個空間這薪水實在是無關啦齁"},{"start":373.218,"end":391.591,"text":"每天在那裡拖廊我就覺得很不捨很不捨我看健保署裡面那些員工也都是蠻累的也不能申請加班費我們在外面的財團法院或社團法院的醫院那個申請加班是沒有人敢擋的"},{"start":392.898,"end":415.009,"text":"那你們勞動部是在要求人家的職業安全條件的結果你們裡面都是過勞三更半夜在發LINE我不敢三更半夜給我們的員工發LINE我怕人家給我投訴你這樣三個半夜發LINE亂搞一通然後還要十分鐘回覆有這種事嗎 部長"},{"start":418.689,"end":423.17,"text":"所以這個心理教育因為這個文書黨本身我看是念社工的嘛"},{"start":446.539,"end":474.976,"text":"是劣色功德應該同理心很強齁所以我看你要整個系統要檢討啦當然那是系統的問題為你的次長、為你的署長都要一個一個檢討整個系統要檢查不然的話這個還是會出事啦我看還是會出事齁所以今天這樣你自己已經半年半年就任半年齁你自己打不及格我是給你鼓勵啦齁"},{"start":475.936,"end":480.4,"text":"這次教訓是一個很有意義的教訓我想我出來勞動部我也是第一次進到行政部門"},{"start":502.301,"end":523.117,"text":"那麼對龐大的官僚體系其實我是陌生的所以我也非常介乘恐懼那麼我期待跟文官之間發展出一個合作友善的關係可是我也忽略了文官體制之間有難以掌控的陋習或者是惡習乃至於我不曾想像的我早上講的"},{"start":531.673,"end":556.79,"text":"那個邪惡的問題那整個文官體制跟我們當今的民主政治體制之間又存在著非常大的鴻溝跟落差我們的社群網路媒體政治對於我們的文官體制的凌遲跟剝削也是不遑多讓的我親眼看到我的文官"},{"start":558.936,"end":561.997,"text":"我希望從我這個例子可以提醒大家看到這裡面的問題那我當然"},{"start":587.978,"end":587.998,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1438,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（13時8分）謝謝主席，我請國防部楊次長。"],["主席：請國防部次長。"],["楊次長基榮：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：次長，讓部長先休息一下，我看她是累了！","有人說這個案件是洪仲丘的2.0版，之前針對國防部洪仲丘這個案子，我也很注意，那時候稱為不當管教，後來經過檢調的調查，指揮官也被拔掉了。請問你對勞動部這件事情的看法是如何？"],["楊次長基榮：報告召委，關於勞動部這件事情，我實在是不便在這個地方發表個人的看法，不過洪仲丘這件事情的確是讓人遺憾，國防部在事情發生之後也做了相關的檢討，不管是司法調查或是我們自己的內部調查，都已經把這件事情還原、都已經把事情的真相釐清，以上向召委報告。"],["蘇委員清泉：在我們的軍中、警界以及外交部，這類事情一直層出不窮的傳出，像在橫濱的處長也是自殺身亡，與我們派去那邊的大使有沒有關係？大家是各說各話。此外，巴西的外館也出了問題。在警界的部分，像屏東也有所長與警員吵吵鬧鬧，什麼都有！因此，對於這種公務體系的失控及脫序的行為，你們軍中的看法如何？你們往後要怎麼做？"],["楊次長基榮：報告委員，合理的管教、善待部屬以及照顧官兵，這是國防部一直在努力的目標。同時也向各位委員報告，軍隊與民間或公部門的管理方式是有點區隔的，因為我們講求的是絕對服從，我們的軍人將來在戰場上一定要執行保國衛民的責任。在某種訓練上，我們要講求絕對服從；在某種管理上，我們也必須要嚴格有相當的紀律，這個要特別向各位委員報告。當然我們也不可以因此而有不合理的管教，甚至把不合理的訓練拿來當作藉口，對官兵產生霸凌或欺侮的現象。"],["蘇委員清泉：我以前是在海軍陸戰隊當兵，有一句話，合理的是訓練，不合理的是磨練。"],["楊次長基榮：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在這句話還管用嗎？還是繼續這樣混下去？"],["楊次長基榮：沒有、沒有，你放心，現在絕對不會有這樣的現象。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，部長，請上來吧！"],["楊次長基榮：謝謝委員。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，你今天剛好上任半年，520上任，今天是10月20日，剛好是半年，在這半年內，我看你是盡心盡力，你自己打幾分？"],["何部長佩珊：我不及格啦！我承認我不及格。"],["蘇委員清泉：我覺得這件事情，你的部分是差在底下發生事情，是否有人向你通報？有沒有人通報給你？如果你都不知道，資訊被蒙蔽掉，這樣就沒有你的責任。但是如果這些資訊和反映有上達，你卻沒處理，這樣就是你不對了。你覺得你是怎麼樣？你是完全不知道，或是……從早上一直質詢到現在，聽太多了，有人說這個分署長後台很硬，所以我去查了，她的身家背景、她的娘家、她的婆家，我已經都查了，確實是不錯，確實經濟面真好，不做這個工作也沒關係，所以在這裡就是做表現的。","你擔任部長是政務官，要對政策負責，部裡面的內控以及底下反映的事情，你是如何接收這些管道？因為太龐大了、人員太多了，光是一個勞動發展署，包括約聘雇人員在內就有二千多人，真的是很多，嚇死人了！在所有的員額中，真的公務人員占不到四分之一，其他都是約聘僱人員。其實我們公務體系的約聘僱人員真的養太多了，而且勞動條件也不太好、待遇也不太好，像食藥署的邊境查驗人員薪水都很低，還要常常被人家恐嚇，在海關那邊寸步難行。如果我們勞動力發展署這邊或是勞動部這邊有這樣的情況，我是覺得要檢討啦！如果是薪水太低，也要將它調高。我覺得要給予公務人員肯定，大家都考得要死、讀書讀得要死，到這裡上這個班，薪水也沒多高。以我在醫療界來看，這個薪水實在是不高，每天就在那裡受折磨，我是覺得很不捨！我看健保署的那些員工也都是蠻累的，也不能申請加班費，我們在外面的財團法人或社團法人的醫院，申請加班費是沒有人敢擋的。你們勞動部應該是要求勞工的職業安全條件，結果你們內部職員卻是過勞，甚至三更半夜發LINE。我不敢三更半夜給我的員工發LINE，因為我會怕耶！我怕被人家投訴耶！你們這位分署長三更半夜發LINE，亂搞一通，還要人家10分鐘內回覆，有這種事嗎？部長，是不是有這種事？不就是瘋子？"],["何部長佩珊：我想確實是不正常，而且也不應該啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：甚至動不動會自裁，這個真的是不可理喻！所以這個心理教育……我看到這位分署長本身是念社工的，同理心應該要很強，坦白講，我覺得你應該針對整個系統去檢討。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，這是系統的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：包括次長、署長都要一個一個的檢討，整個系統都要檢查，不然我看還是會出事。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：到今天已經就任半年了，你自己打不及格，我是給你鼓勵啦！往後你要怎麼做，講一下？我是召委，不能超過時間，所以你有17秒，趕快！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。當然這次的事件是一個很有意義的教訓，我任職勞動部也是第一次進入行政部門，面對龐大的官僚體系，其實我是陌生的，所以我也非常戒慎恐懼。我期待與文官之間發展出合作、友善的關係，但是我忽略了文官體制之間有難以掌控的陋習或惡習，乃至於我不曾想像的……我早上講的那個邪惡的問題，整個文官體制與當今的民主政治體制之間又存在著非常大的鴻溝與落差，我們的社群網路媒體對於我們文官體制的凌遲與剝削也是不遑多讓。我親眼看到我的文官們，我也很心疼他們，我看到他們的辛苦、看到他們每天在應付這些網路上層出不窮的各種質疑與謾罵，我覺得這是當今文官體制的困境，我希望從我這個例子可以提醒大家看到這裡面的問題。對我來講，我也必須體認到如何在這裡面去處理、如何做得更好。"],["蘇委員清泉：加油啦！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：接續請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157189","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157189","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab3f52baa4138138a1e934a6858ea79529d632f63170caf1df8dd520d2c11f20995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:12:53 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部長好 董事長好董事長我們看到立法院的預算中心他的這個審查報告有提到說台電未使用或依原規定的使用之土地有計166件301筆那面積是27萬平方公尺左右那其中原定最後使用期間20年以上的土地有47件90筆那面積是4萬多平方公尺"},{"start":48.618,"end":72.91,"text":"那在民間公司的話因為部長以前也在民間公司那應該是很快速的就會來處理這些閒置資產來去增加營業的資金那我想請教董事長說未來針對這些部分怎麼樣做有效的利用可不可以請董事長來簡單的回應我們一下那個跟委員報告就是在2021年的時候這一個數字其實預算中心有提過當時有129公頃"},{"start":76.552,"end":96.126,"text":"現在是27公頃所以他其實改善的幅度相當的大那我也要跟委員報告就是說台電會有一些鐵台用地那零星的你剛才提到那個比數都不少加加起來就會有這一些可是我們這幾年包括變電站的新建還有電廠的新建通過環評有突破"},{"start":98.087,"end":125.797,"text":"所以整個使用的比例就開始提升相對來講沒有使用的面積也比較少那因為他的單位是平方公尺聽起來好幾萬所以就很大但一般我們在考慮就是用公頃來算的話他現在是27公頃OK好我們換算27公頃反正說你從100多公頃降到20多公頃了所以這一個幅度是有的那部長你也認同說這樣子的這個速率或未來的方向"},{"start":126.916,"end":148.569,"text":"這個是我們統計的這個數字啦這有在下降那閒置的土地我想能夠處理我們當然會處理啦但是有一些就是說在鐵塔旁邊的這些土地啊這個就沒有辦法處理啦OK好那部長我們希望說未來可以更加有效的利用這些資產那接下來我們請這個自來水公司李董事長"},{"start":156.499,"end":175.877,"text":"董事長好還有部長這個之前我們在這個總質詢的時候有提到我們均衡台灣裡面我覺得最重要的一點就是水的部分那現在全國的自來水補給率大概是95%但是再加一線我們山區的自來水這還有14000多戶目前是沒有這個接管的狀況"},{"start":176.978,"end":202.231,"text":"特別是我要舉幾個鄉鎮希望說部長也把這些鄉鎮記在腦海裡因為它是我們嘉義重要的鄉鎮也是我們全國一樣重要的景區包含大埔鄉、阿里山鄉、梅山鄉這些自來水的戶數它未接用的戶數還是高於供水戶數特別是大埔鄉我要強調它是真文水庫的所在地"},{"start":202.791,"end":218.272,"text":"也就是說他們在水庫旁邊卻沒有辦法使用到自來水所以這是一個非常嚴肅的問題我也認為說他是在我們均衡台灣裡面來把這個城鄉差距這個消擬掉一個非常重要的一步那當然在這幾年我們看到說"},{"start":219.113,"end":248.673,"text":"有在變化為什麼過去就是以每戶的戶數從60萬到平均費用60萬才做到80萬就可以做到現在是到100萬元就可以做我們看到說政府對於弱勢地區是有在進展但是我還是要誠懇的請這個董事長務必要把我們嘉義縣山區的這個部分納入明年無自來水的地區的沿管工程的計劃案那這邊有稍微整理一下上述的幾個鄉大埔鄉、梅山鄉、法國鄉、愛里山鄉、朱祁鄉"},{"start":249.534,"end":265.395,"text":"這些鄉鎮都是在我國最重要的阿里山的這個相關的風景區裡面所以這些居民們儘管在山區但是他們需要受到我們一樣的關注這個部分部長跟董事長是不是可以承諾來全力的來去把這個部分來完成"},{"start":267.583,"end":284.716,"text":"謝謝委員對於關心建在縣山區這幾個鄉鎮的用水那我們已經有調查過大概我們有提了12個案件已經報給水利署8月報給水利署希望納入5期明年能夠辦"},{"start":285.401,"end":288.243,"text":"大埔鄉、竹崎鄉、梅山鄉、方若鄉、阿里山鄉都在山區,過去城鄉差距很大,經過幾個政府的努力,我們相信可以一步一步把它做好。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1207,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時13分）謝謝召委。我們請郭部長跟台電曾董事長。"],["主席：請郭部長跟台電曾董事長。"],["陳委員冠廷：等等董事長結束之後我們再針對自來水的部分快速來問問題。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好、董事長好。董事長，我們看到立法院預算中心的審查報告提到，台電未使用或未依原規定使用之土地有計166件301筆，面積是27萬平方公尺左右，其中原定最後使用期限20年以上的土地有47件90筆、面積是四萬多平方公尺。在民間公司的話，因為部長以前也在民間公司，應該是很快速的就會去處理這些閒置資產來增加營運的資金。我想請教董事長，未來針對這些部分要怎麼樣最有效的利用？可不可以請董事長簡單回應我們一下？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，在2021年的時候這一個數字其實預算中心也有提過，當時有129公頃，現在是27公頃，所以其實改善的幅度相當的大，我也要跟委員報告，就是台電會有一些零星的鐵塔用地，你剛才提到那個筆數都不少，加起來就會有這些，可是我們這幾年包括變電站的興建還有電廠的興建通過環評有突破，所以整個使用的比例就開始提升，相對來講沒有使用的面積也比較少，因為它的單位是平方公尺，聽起來好幾萬，所以就很大，但如果一般我們在考慮用公頃來算的話，現在是27公頃。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，好，我們換算是27公頃，等於你從一百多公頃降到二十多公頃了，所以這一個幅度是有的。"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長你也認同這樣子的速率或未來的方向？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們統計的數字，有在下降，閒置的土地我想能夠處理我們當然會處理，但是有一些在鐵塔旁邊的土地，這個就沒有辦法處理了。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，好，部長，希望未來可以更加有效的利用這些資產。","接下來請自來水公司。"],["主席：請自來水公司李董事長。"],["陳委員冠廷：董事長好，還有部長，之前我們在總質詢的時候有提到均衡臺灣，裡面我覺得最重要的一點就是水的部分，現在全國自來水普及率大概是95%，但是在我們嘉義縣山區的自來水還有一萬四千多戶目前是沒有接管的狀況，特別是我要舉幾個鄉鎮，希望部長也把這些鄉鎮記在腦海裡，因為它是我們嘉義重要的鄉鎮，也是我們全國比較重要的景區，包含大埔鄉、阿里山鄉、梅山鄉，這些地區自來水未接用的戶數還是高於供水戶數，特別是大埔鄉，我要強調，它是曾文水庫的所在地，也就是他們在水庫旁邊卻沒有辦法使用到自來水，所以這是一個非常嚴肅的問題，我也認為它是在我們均衡臺灣裡面來把城鄉差距消弭掉非常重要的一步。","當然在這幾年我們看到有在變化，為什麼？過去就是以每戶的戶數平均費用從到60萬才做、到80萬就可以做，到現在則是到100萬元就可以做，我們看到政府對於弱勢地區是有在進展，但是我還是要誠懇的請董事長務必要把我們嘉義縣山區的這個部分納入明年無自來水地區延管工程的計畫案。我這邊有稍微整理一下，上述的幾個鄉：大埔鄉、梅山鄉、番路鄉、阿里山鄉和竹崎鄉，這些鄉鎮都是在我國最重要的阿里山相關風景區裡面，所以這些居民們儘管在山區，但是他們需要受到我們一樣的關注，這部分部長跟董事長是不是可以承諾全力來把這個部分完成？"],["李董事長嘉榮：好，謝謝委員關心嘉義縣山區這幾個鄉鎮的用水，我們已經有調查過，我們大概有提了12個案件已經報給水利署。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["李董事長嘉榮：8月報給水利署，希望納入五期，明年能夠辦。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝董事長，董事長，我這裡要強調最後一點，就是大埔鄉在曾文水庫，看得到水、喝不到水，這有一點遺憾，請儘快儘速，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會儘快儘速來處理這件事情。"],["陳委員冠廷：大埔鄉、竹崎鄉、梅山鄉、番路鄉、阿里山鄉都在山區，過去城鄉差距很大，經過幾個政府的努力，我們相信可以一步一步把它做好，好不好？謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回座。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱不在。","萬美玲、萬美玲、萬美玲不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福不在。","涂權吉、涂權吉、涂權吉不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩不在。","下一位質詢請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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主席麻煩請我們郭智慧部長請進入郭部長來 部長委員好延續昨天在院會齁持續在跟您做請教你有受訪或者說你在答詢的時候有講到是說即便是台電今年追加千億明年再補補千億明年還是會虧損是不是"},{"start":40.097,"end":48.077,"text":"台電明年還是會虧損這你講的不是你講的不是嗎你答詢的時候你講的明年還是會虧損"},{"start":50.612,"end":70.049,"text":"累虧沒辦法累虧沒有辦法完全來處理啦累虧目前大家都推給說是原物料上漲的部分但是這個已經是老命題了嘛我們講是說如果說我們的原物料我們的發電方式我們的結構不改變的話你再怎麼樣虧損都還再怎麼樣的補貼都還是虧損啊"},{"start":72.771,"end":98.184,"text":"那羊毛出在羊身上一定還是所有的納稅人來買單,不是嗎?報告委員,我想從很多的數字上面來可以看得出來台電是一直在進步那造成台電虧損的大概兩個原因第一個原因就是我們的材料的成本非常的高而且這些材料成本是從國外買進來的就國際原物料上漲嘛但原物料起起疊疊可是我們一直看到的是持續的虧損"},{"start":99.645,"end":115.061,"text":"我們沒有因為看到說國際原物料違規到原本的價格之後我們台電就不虧損因為這個就是您剛剛所指導的這部分也就是說我們對電價對從用電物裡面收到的這個價格"},{"start":116.542,"end":134.393,"text":"事實上沒有辦法讓我們反映,有一部分是沒有辦法反映成本。譬如說我們凍漲啊,或者是對民生的這個部分,我們即使賣給,我們現在即使賣給民生的這個價格,還是虧錢。電價審議委員會到底有沒有政治利介入?"},{"start":139.575,"end":164.925,"text":"電價審議委員會是獨立自主的是你又講獨立自主可是你又講是說現在沒有辦法如實反映電價我覺得聽不懂你們的邏輯這個是邏輯非常正確的完全聽不懂你們的邏輯來部長我再確認一下你今天的中午有在受訪講是說你看相關的核能民調支持已經有六七成是不是是媒體問的你看哪一份民調"},{"start":167.934,"end":196.65,"text":"媒體告訴我的啊你講是說他看郭志輝看相關核電民調支持已有六七成民主國家是多數的多數決所以核能共識這個命題不難你是看哪一份民調我就是說問那個媒體啊看哪個媒體問我呢但是你認為說核能共識在台灣有沒有多數決有沒有共識我認為台灣是一個民主的國家有沒有共識了現在"},{"start":197.697,"end":200.618,"text":"那這個可能要再討論嗎?"},{"start":200.618,"end":220.584,"text":"現在我們在總統府部長我還本來想說的話今天聯合新聞網出來的快訊講說共識決 郭部長說已經有了而核能安全在台灣也不難我也同意啊 因為我們有核安會啊那剩下就是核廢料問題怎麼處理"},{"start":222.344,"end":246.909,"text":"就是這三原則嗎?就是你現在你又改口又不敢承認你自己講了一個共識訣我們還想說說民進黨政府裡面還有一個腦袋相對比較清楚不到兩個小時你又改口了我沒有要套你的話這明明就是你自己的話啊你去看一下媒體報導好不好那你要不要更正?"},{"start":249.451,"end":258.563,"text":"要不要要求媒體更正我還是在這裡跟委員直接報告媒體問我說六七層部長來啦最後一個人的意見"},{"start":260.134,"end":288.66,"text":"部長真的說實在話你在擔任部長之前當董事長啊我覺得你的尬子還比較有一點啦但是當了部長之後真的跌跌死、扁扁背好像台灣的現況跟我們生活經濟部生活是完全是平行時空稍微已經站起來我只是請教最後一點我是經濟部長我必須要發表行政院整體的運作是所以說你就是執行民進黨政府的意志嘛聽好本席的問題啊"},{"start":289.58,"end":312.16,"text":"那現在河山廠的二號機正在稅休稅休會到什麼時候12月上旬12月上旬那12月上旬之後會不會再重新啟動發電依法還是要啟動依法還是要啟動那我們會到什麼時候來做廚藝明年的5月那從12月到明年5月這中間河山廠二號機會不會產生核廢料"},{"start":318.12,"end":333.939,"text":"如果說運轉的話會不會?當然會阿是啊那現在民進黨政府不會一直在講是說我要的三個原則和安、共識以及核廢料處理那如果說你現在沒有辦法有這個處理的方式標準的話你怎麼有辦法來重啟?好 謝謝"},{"start":336.264,"end":357.671,"text":"他是在運作的現在是不是就已經有現在是不是已經有卓榮泰院長是不是有講如果說我要研議核能或說我要用核能發電的話我要用新核能那你現在核三廠的二號機你稅收完之後你這是新核能還是舊核能核三廠二號機算是新核能還是舊核能"},{"start":359.507,"end":363.149,"text":"核生廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能?"},{"start":363.149,"end":380.281,"text":"舊核能所以在你們的主政之下即便是現在我有這三前提但是我要用電的時候我還是要用就是要把它給用好用滿這就你的答案 這不是法律規定啊這不是法律規定你也沒選擇如果說現在台灣能源夠的話你也可以不要用啊"},{"start":383.463,"end":388.472,"text":"這重點是現在台灣能源不夠所以你們才會連一支一毫的電你們都要用阿不是嗎?"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1110,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時6分）主席，麻煩請郭智輝部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，延續昨天在院會的持續再跟您做請教，你受訪或者是你在答詢的時候有講到即便是台電今年追加千億、明年再撥補千億，明年還是會虧損，是不是？台電明年還是會虧損，這是你講的。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我請台電來做比較詳細的……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊，這是你講的，不是嗎？你答詢的時候講的啊，說明年還是會虧損。"],["曾董事長文生：是累虧，沒辦法完全……"],["洪委員孟楷：累虧？沒辦法？"],["郭部長智輝：累虧沒有辦法完全來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：累虧？目前大家都推給說是原物料上漲的部分，但是這個已經是老命題了，我們講的是如果我們的原物料、我們的發電方式、我們的結構不改變的話，再怎麼樣補貼都還是虧損啊。羊毛出在羊身上，一定還是所有的納稅人來買單，不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想從很多的數字上面可以看得出來台電是一直在進步的，造成台電虧損的大概兩個原因，第一個原因就是我們的材料成本非常的高，而且這些材料是從國外買進來的，所以造就我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是國際原物料上漲嘛，但原物料起起跌跌，可是我們一直看到的是持續的虧損，我們沒有看到因為國際原物料回歸到原本的價格之後台電就不虧損。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，報告委員，因為這個就是您剛剛所指導的部分，也就是我們對電價、從用電戶收到的這個價格事實上有一部分是沒有辦法反映成本的，譬如我們凍漲或者是對民生部分，我們現在即使賣給民生的這個價格還是虧錢，1度電虧1元。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們電價審議委員會到底有沒有政治力介入？"],["郭部長智輝：電價審議委員會是獨立自主的，而且……"],["洪委員孟楷：你講獨立自主，可是你又講現在沒有辦法如實反映電價……"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我就聽不懂你們的邏輯。"],["郭部長智輝：這個邏輯是非常正確的啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：完全聽不懂你們的邏輯！"],["郭部長智輝：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，部長，我再確認一下，你今天中午有受訪說你看相關的核能民調支持已經有六、七成了，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是媒體問的。"],["洪委員孟楷：你看哪一份民調？"],["郭部長智輝：啊？"],["洪委員孟楷：你看哪一份民調？"],["郭部長智輝：是媒體告訴我的啊，應該要問媒體呀！"],["洪委員孟楷：你是說郭智輝看相關核電民調支持已有六、七成，民主國家是多數的多數決，所以核能共識這個命題不難。你是看哪一份民調？"],["郭部長智輝：我就是說那要問那個媒體啊，看是哪個媒體問我的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是你認為核能共識在臺灣有沒有多數決？有沒有共識？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為臺灣是一個民主的國家。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在有沒有共識了？"],["郭部長智輝：這個可能要再討論，現在國家……"],["洪委員孟楷：又再討論？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在總統府能源會議上……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我還本來想：哇！今天聯合新聞網出來的快訊說共識決，郭部長說已經有了，而核能安全在臺灣也不難。我也同意啊，因為我們有核安會，剩下就是核廢料問題怎麼處理，就是這三原則嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在你又改口……"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有改口……"],["洪委員孟楷：又不敢承認，你自己講了一個共識決……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你們不能斷章取義……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們還想：哇，民進黨政府裡面還有一個腦袋相對比較清楚的。但不到兩個小時你又改口了。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，你們都用不同的話來套我的回應。"],["洪委員孟楷：我沒有要套你的話，這明明就是你自己的話啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是我自己的話，那個是……"],["洪委員孟楷：你自己去看一下媒體報導好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：媒體不代表我嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：那你要不要更正？要不要要求媒體更正？"],["郭部長智輝：我怎麼……我沒有更正啊，我不需要更正，我還是在這裡跟委員直接報告，是媒體問我，六、七成那是不是代表多數人的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，來啦，最後啦……誒，部長，真的說實在話，你在擔任部長之前當董事長，我覺得你還比較有一點guts，但是當了部長之後真的是捏著怕它死了、放手又怕它飛了，好像臺灣的現況跟經濟部的生活完全是平行的時空。"],["郭部長智輝：No、No、No！委員我跟你報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：召委已經站起來了，我只說了一點……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我是經濟部長，我必須要follow行政院整體的運作。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以你就是執行民進黨政府的意志嘛！聽好本席的問題，現在核三廠的2號機正在歲修，歲修會到什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：12月上旬。"],["洪委員孟楷：12月上旬，12月上旬之後會不會再重新啟動發電？"],["郭部長智輝：依法還是要啟動啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：依法還是要啟動？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們會到什麼時候來做除役？"],["郭部長智輝：明年的5月。"],["洪委員孟楷：那從12月到明年5月這中間，核三廠2號機會不會產生核廢料？如果運轉的話會不會？"],["郭部長智輝：當然會啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，那現在民進黨政府不是一直在講要有三個原則：核安、共識以及核廢料處理。如果你現在沒有辦法有這個處理方式的標準的話，你怎麼有辦法來重啟？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，它是在運作的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是在核安法裡面規範。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在是不是就已經有？現在是不是已經有？"],["郭部長智輝：現在沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：卓榮泰院長是不是有講如果要延役核能或是要用核能發電的話要用新核能，那現在核三廠的2號機歲修完之後，你是要新核能還是舊核能？……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有，我們現在是在講過去所產生的核廢料沒有辦法處理……"],["洪委員孟楷：核三廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能？"],["主席：洪委員，你……"],["洪委員孟楷：核三廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能？"],["郭部長智輝：舊。"],["洪委員孟楷：舊核能……"],["主席：謝謝，發言時間已過……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以在你們的主政之下，即便是現在有這三前提，但是我要用電的時候我還是要用，就是要把它給用好用滿，這就是你的答案啊。"],["主席：好，謝謝，洪委員，謝謝……"],["郭部長智輝：這是法律規定啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是法律規定，你也可以選擇……"],["郭部長智輝：是啊，是核安法上面的規定……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果現在臺灣能源夠的話，你也可以不要用啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["洪委員孟楷：重點是現在臺灣能源不夠，所以你們才會連一絲一毫的電都要用啊，不是嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝、謝謝、謝謝，要維持每一個委員發言公平性。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有問題，謝謝。"],["主席：今天我特別給你4加4。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嗎？有4加4嗎？"],["主席：有啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有喔！"],["主席：4加3.5啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：4分加40秒。如果部長能夠都回答問題的話，我們不會浪費那麼多時間，很多時間都是部長浪費的。"],["主席：好，部長請回座。","下一位質詢請吳春城、吳春城、吳春城不在。","請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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有請何部長部長好 可以感覺出來你也承受很大的壓力了但是我們今天討論這個東西就是希望把這件事情釐清調查清楚還給社會一個公道部長 請先跟大眾說明一下什麼是目的良善目的良善 你們報告裡面寫的目的良善"},{"start":44.028,"end":69.261,"text":"主席你要不要暫停一下 讓那個 讓 主席要不要暫停一下時間 讓部長的情緒緩和一下好 我想 嗯 謝偏署長 確實有霸凌的行為確實有霸凌的行為 像破地牢上這樣的用語錯了 我們承認錯誤所以你調查就是確實 確實有霸凌的行為"},{"start":71.015,"end":71.716,"text":"我想要問這次勞動部的無姓同仁的親身的漢氏"},{"start":97.191,"end":111.079,"text":"為什麼悲劇發生在11月4號要一直到11月8號才從社群媒體網路得知?難道我們勞動部的長官們都要看報紙才會做事嗎?看社群有事情才會做事情嗎?拖了4天不啟動調查的原因是什麼?委員我一直在本來就有在思考要啟動調查思考"},{"start":127.517,"end":128.798,"text":"家屬希望低調跟調查也是兩件事吧?"},{"start":155.821,"end":182.507,"text":"我想要問那啟動調查比較慢這些拖的時間難道會不會讓人家覺得你們是在處理輿論也就是我們所謂的壓新聞這就是讓大眾非常疑惑的地方所以如果是這樣的話我想現在是預算會期勞動部的這種媒體宣傳的經費是會有問題的因為這樣看起來你們延後調查就是有這種讓人家覺得壓新聞的過程"},{"start":185,"end":211.753,"text":"我沒有能力壓新聞好我等一下繼續另外我同樣想要問你因為你們18號得知拖到12號14號才開始訪談嘛那另外這個出勤打卡紀錄今天應該也很多人問過一切看起來沒有問題可是監視器他就是有加班但我想請問你們掌握這樣的情形有掌握到多久他這樣的情況有多久"},{"start":216.622,"end":217.383,"text":"你們有去訪談說這個"},{"start":242.405,"end":255.691,"text":"這麼多的工作量這個謝信長官也算是他們單位的直屬長官難道不知道嗎那這些工作甚至有可能是他直接交辦到無緣吧那你們有沒有去談他知不知道無緣加班的這個事實你是指謝信長官知不知道無緣加班的事實對你們有去問他嗎有調查問他嗎我想他不了解吧"},{"start":271.656,"end":285.661,"text":"你想他不了解,所以你調查裡面也沒有去問這件事,對不對?然後如果沒有談,那要怎麼知道長官做了什麼,還有什麼事情才是真正讓委員會壓力大到輕生的真正原因?這就是沒有調查清楚嘛。"},{"start":286.69,"end":302.597,"text":"所以現在的結論就是如果本人不反應遭到霸凌出情表上看起來正常那無論其他人怎麼反應申訴陳情這些上級長官都不會處理就一定要搞到出了人命新聞壓不下來才要處理囉"},{"start":304.628,"end":319.909,"text":"是嗎那我再問訪談相關人固然重要但是要釐清調查真相的相關工作的資料例如LINE、EMAIL等才可以更細入的更深入的去了解請問這部分有做調查嗎有嗎"},{"start":323.752,"end":324.733,"text":"好我請處長來回答好不好"},{"start":354.609,"end":354.629,"text":"部長．"},{"start":364.477,"end":383.032,"text":"我問你這個邏輯非常奇怪你認為家屬在這個無緣被霸凌輕生之後會去跟霸凌者講說不好意思喔就算我家人都被你們霸凌到死我還是希望你們這位始作俑者一直低調不要上媒體這個邏輯就是就是這樣大眾就是這樣看的好回到調查結論就是兩個"},{"start":385.394,"end":412.424,"text":"現在你們說謝信這個可能要停職嘛對不對本來是說調職但是今天質詢了一天之後你受不了說停職好依問卷訪談及相關的證據顯示謝信長官沒有霸凌你剛剛也就說他是有霸凌是不是你也改口了嘛對不對不是委員我還是要再強調一次他有對其他的同仁霸凌對"},{"start":415.799,"end":442.59,"text":"那麼他是通過他對當事者也許他有霸凌是因為通過當通過這樣子層層傳導的方式而形成的所以我想下一個下一個結論喔我們我是要再問早上再繼續追問下去喔我想要請問一下喔這一次的調查裡面這些這些人都是這個謝信長官的舊事有沒有難道沒有迴避的問題嗎"},{"start":444.687,"end":466.097,"text":"包含著召集人,包含著黃琳娜次長,還有吳雅惠參事他們都不是調查小組成員都不是,但是他不在裡面,但是難道沒有這個相關的關係嗎?召集人在調查小組裡,但是其他的長官都在救市,這個有沒有,其中有沒有牽扯到大家共同來押案子的問題?"},{"start":467.478,"end":484.1,"text":"這也是要求你們調查很重要的地方我要表達的事情告訴你的是這一次霸凌申訴調查小組只有兩位外部委員的加入只在小組的九分之二"},{"start":484.801,"end":485.441,"text":"我會處理最後我要繼續追問事發過程當中"},{"start":507.219,"end":532.952,"text":"你有沒有嘗試要把事情壓掉或者是持案你跟署長能夠發誓問心聞愧的摸著你們的良心說完全沒有嗎?絕對沒有有的話你是不是有說要負起政治責任嘛對不對早上那是不是政治責任的意思是說要以下台以示負責是是嘛對不對好那我告訴你你就是有這樣的狀況"},{"start":535.253,"end":552.05,"text":"因為如果沒有施壓、施案的話我想要請問部長為什麼要通過黨的系統副秘書長何柏文去聯絡李雨祥一人我想問為什麼要這樣這不是施案我跟你講為什麼這樣可以說是有施壓嫌疑"},{"start":552.771,"end":569.92,"text":"因為議員的服務處、議員的手機這個都可以公開都可以找得到的你要聯絡議員服務處非常的簡單何必要透過黨的系統去聯絡議員呢這就好像是你找了你找了比如說你過去可能在"},{"start":571.02,"end":583.096,"text":"科建民總召委員的辦公室工作過然後呢科總召可能又跟某個委員關係特別好然後你明明可以直接找到那個委員然後你就是特別跟這個科總召說你幫我跟那個委員講一聲好不好"},{"start":583.96,"end":600.74,"text":"這樣子就是有間接讓人社會大眾覺得這叫做間接性的好像說我被關切了我是不是要小心一點因為你透過的是黨的系統所以我要告訴你這個東西就是間接性的施壓而且也可以視為想要試圖有試圖有嫌疑試圖要押案的這個狀況"},{"start":603.188,"end":629.637,"text":"委員你認為李議員他後來有停止對我的監督嗎?完全沒有啊沒有這種東西這種東西這只能夠說這樣子施壓不代表他一定會被你壓嘛對不對但是你這就是過程你用你透過黨的高層來告訴我就好像你說今天你找了這個高層來這裡跟一個議員說他找你喔這個勞動部長找你他會不會覺得說我好像被施壓了"},{"start":630.458,"end":647.105,"text":"就是這個樣子那我問你那你整個內容是什麼你有跟他聯絡上嗎跟誰跟這個議員那個李議員啊我本人嗎對那為什麼你要透過秘書那個副秘書長何柏文去聯絡這個議員呢"},{"start":649.656,"end":676.381,"text":"我們當然跟他聯繫上啊因為我們必須提供資料給委員給議員啊所以我請我的我請我的這個同仁慕瑤同仁提供資料給他是這樣而已我要告訴你也是部長你居然透過外部的第三人去聯繫爆料的明袋那有證據現場如果有證據有沒有什麼證據不公開我想問聽說有不具名的說現場也有留下類似遺書的東西請問內容是什麼有嗎什麼現場"},{"start":679.861,"end":681.502,"text":"你們有沒有認真地去調查這件事情?"},{"start":706.346,"end":706.366,"text":"委員﹗"},{"start":730.168,"end":755.845,"text":"因為這個是家屬的痛啦我當然知道是家屬的痛我們都不希望憾事再發生所以我還是要回過頭來說基本上部長就是我只能說說你透過了外部人透過了黨的系統去聯繫爆料的明帶而且明帶的資料很好去聯繫我隨便上網找你就找得到這個李議員服務處的聯絡方式甚至議會都很容易找到"},{"start":756.545,"end":771.708,"text":"所以我要告訴你的是你這樣的行為就會讓人家覺得這不是詞案那什麼是詞案因為你明明有很正當的管道可以去聯繫的所以我要說那這樣子算不算需要負責任你在做這件事情之前你有沒有深思熟慮過"},{"start":785.725,"end":785.805,"text":"其實上﹖"},{"start":808.553,"end":825.976,"text":"事實上你可以用很正當的管道去告訴他們說發生什麼事我來跟你報告我把資料跟你講但是你卻透過了同一個派系的永延會的副秘書長要去跟這個李議員講我跟你講這不是慈安什麼是慈安好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1342,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時54分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好，可以感覺出來你也承受很大的壓力，但是我們今天討論這個東西，就是希望把這件事情釐清、調查清楚，還給社會一個公道。部長，請先跟大眾說明一下什麼是「目的良善」，你們報告裡面寫的是「目的良善」……","主席，你要不要暫停一下時間，讓部長的情緒緩和一下？"],["主席：好，時間不計入。"],["何部長佩珊：我想謝分署長確實有霸凌的行為……"],["廖委員偉翔：確實有霸凌的行為。"],["何部長佩珊：「目的良善」這樣的用語錯了，我們承認錯誤。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的調查就是確實有霸凌的行為？"],["何部長佩珊：「目的良善」的用語錯了，我們承認我們調查報告寫錯了，所以我們會依委員會的決議，再重做調查報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我看到早上的質詢中，你說他霸凌了很多一級主管，但是針對這個沒有直接霸凌，這個就讓大家覺得聽不下去了。我想要問，這次勞動部吳姓同仁輕生的憾事，為什麼悲劇發生在11月4號，卻要一直到11月8號才從社群媒體網路得知，難道我們勞動部的長官們都要看報紙才會做事嗎？要看社群有事情才會做事情嗎？拖了4天不啟動調查原因是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我本來就有在思考要啟動調查。"],["廖委員偉翔：思考？這個很扯的事情……"],["何部長佩珊：事情發生當天，其實我就有在思考這件事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：思考但是沒有調查，為什麼隔了這麼多天？理由是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：因為家屬他……"],["廖委員偉翔：你說家屬嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：家屬也希望低調，可是我想……"],["廖委員偉翔：你確定家屬希望低調？"],["何部長佩珊：我承認我們啟動調查比較慢了。"],["廖委員偉翔：家屬希望低調跟啟動調查也是兩件事吧？"],["何部長佩珊：我承認我們啟動調查比較慢了，這點跟大家道歉。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要問，啟動調查比較慢，這些拖延的時間會不會讓人家覺得你們是在處理輿論，也就是我們所謂的壓新聞？這就是讓大家非常疑惑的地方，所以如果是這樣的話，我想下一次預算會期，勞動部的媒體宣傳經費是會有問題的，因為這樣看起來，你們延後調查就會讓人家覺得這是有壓新聞的過程。"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有能力壓新聞。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我等一下再繼續。另外，我同樣想要問你，因為你們11月8號得知後，拖到12號、14號才開始訪談。再來，關於出勤打卡紀錄，今天應該很多人問過了，一切看起來似乎沒有問題，可是看監視器後他就是有加班，但我想請問你們掌握到有這樣的情形多久了？他這樣的情況有多久了？"],["何部長佩珊：之前委員也有垂詢過，因為我們那個大樓的影帶紀錄只有保留15天，所以目前能掌握的大概也只有15天的紀錄，目前掌握的資料大概是這樣子。"],["廖委員偉翔：吳員有這麼多的工作量，這個謝姓長官也算是他們單位的直屬長官，難道他不知道嗎？這些工作甚至有可能是他直接交辦給吳員吧！你們有沒有去訪談，他知不知道吳員加班這個事實？"],["何部長佩珊：你是指謝姓長官知不知道吳員加班的事實？"],["廖委員偉翔：對。你們有去問他嗎？有調查嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想他不了解吧！"],["廖委員偉翔：你想他不了解，所以你的調查裡面也沒有去問這件事嗎？對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：我不知道，那次調查……"],["廖委員偉翔：如果沒有談，那又怎麼知道長官做了什麼，還有什麼事情才是真正讓吳員壓力大到會輕生的真正原因？這就是沒有調查清楚嘛！所以現在的結論就是如果本人不反映遭到霸凌，畢竟他出勤表上看起來正常，但無論其他人怎麼反映、申訴、陳情，這些上級長官都不會處理，就一定要搞到出了人命，新聞壓不下來才要處理囉？是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：絕對不是這樣子。"],["廖委員偉翔：我要再問，訪談相關人員固然重要，但是要釐清調查真相的相關工作資料，例如LINE、email等才可以更深入地了解，請問這部分有做調查嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：調查委員他們是有根據這個來……"],["廖委員偉翔：LINE跟email都有去做進一步調查。好，為什麼有外流的錄音檔顯示謝姓長官施壓同仁晉升，然後還推說這是尊重家屬的意見，我想要問這到底是真的有問過家屬後的結果，還是這個謝姓長官假傳聖旨的一面之詞？"],["何部長佩珊：我請處長來回答，好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["姜處長碧琳：11月4日我們的人事室主任都是陪著家屬，當下家屬是有表達。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我問你，這個邏輯非常奇怪，你認為在吳員被霸凌輕生之後，家屬會向霸凌者說，不好意思！就算我的家人被你們霸凌到死，我還是希望你們這位始作俑者一直低調，不要上媒體？這個邏輯就是這樣、大眾就是這樣看的！","好，回到調查結論，就是二個，現在你們說謝姓長官可能要停職，對不對？本來是說調職，但是今天質詢了一天，你受不了就說停職。依問卷訪談及相關證據顯示，謝姓長官沒有霸凌，但你剛剛也說她是有霸凌，是不是？你也改口了，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，我還是要再強調一次，她有對其他的同仁霸凌……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以？"],["何部長佩珊：她有霸凌是因為透過這樣層層傳導的方式而形成的。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想下一個結論，請問一下，在這次的調查裡面，這些人都是謝姓長官的舊識，難道沒有迴避的問題嗎？包含召集人、包含黃玲娜次長及吳雅慧參事，這些……"],["何部長佩珊：他們都不是調查小組的成員。"],["廖委員偉翔：都不是？雖然他們不在裡面，但是難道沒有相關的關係嗎？召集人在調查小組裡，但其他長官都是她的舊識，其中有沒有牽扯到大家共同來壓案子的問題，這也是要求你們調查很重要的地方。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，黃玲娜次長是新任的次長，吳雅慧參事……他們並沒有參與調查工作、也沒有參與……"],["廖委員偉翔：我要告訴你，這次霸凌申訴調查小組只有2位外部委員加入、只占小組的九分之二，大部分都是內部成員組成，這樣如何讓社會感覺有公信力？未來這個部分是不是應該要改善？不只是增加外部人員的比例，就算是外部人員也要嚴格要求迴避，未來這個部分是不是應該要這樣處理？"],["何部長佩珊：我會處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：最後我要繼續追問，事發過程當中，你有沒有嘗試要把事情壓掉或吃案？你和署長能夠發誓問心無愧，並摸著你們的良心說完全沒有嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：絕對沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：有的話，早上你是不是說過要負起政治責任？政治責任的意思是不是要下台以示負責？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：是嘛！對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我告訴你，你就是有這樣的狀況。如果沒有施壓吃案的話，我想要請問部長，為什麼要通過黨的系統，由副秘書長何博文聯絡李宇翔議員？我想問為什麼要這樣做？"],["何部長佩珊：這不是吃案，這也不是施壓。"],["廖委員偉翔：我告訴你，為什麼這樣可以說是有施壓的嫌疑？因為議員的服務處、議員的手機都是公開的、都可以找得到，你要連絡議員服務處非常簡單，何必要透過黨的系統去連絡議員呢？譬如你過去可能在柯建銘總召的辦公室工作過，柯總召可能又與某位委員的關係特別好，明明你可以直接找到那位委員，但是你卻特別拜託柯總召去向那位委員講一聲，這樣就讓社會大眾覺得是間接性的。覺得自己好像是被關切了，是不是要小心一點？因為你透過的是黨的系統，所以我要告訴你，這個東西就是間接性的施壓，而且可以視為有嫌疑試圖壓案的狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你認為李議員後來有停止對我的監督嗎？完全沒有啊！對啊！所以我沒有要試圖吃案。"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣的施壓並不代表他一定會被你壓嘛！對不對？但是你這個就是過程，你透過黨的高層來告訴我，就好像今天你找高層告訴一個議員說勞動部長找你，他會不會覺得自己好像被施壓了？就是這個樣子。"],["何部長佩珊：因為我與他之間的交集……"],["廖委員偉翔：整個內容是什麼？你有跟他連絡上嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：跟誰？"],["廖委員偉翔：李議員。"],["何部長佩珊：我本人嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：對，為什麼你要透過副秘書長何博文去連絡這個議員呢？"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然要聯繫上，因為我們必須提供資料給議員啊！所以我請我的幕僚同仁提供資料給他，就是這樣而已。"],["廖委員偉翔：我要告訴你，部長，你居然透過外部的第三人去聯繫爆料的民代，我想問現場有沒有什麼證據不公開？聽說有不具名人士表示，現場有留下疑似遺書的東西，請問內容是什麼？有嗎？沒有公開，內容是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我們得尊重家屬，這個不能公開。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們有去調查過嗎？內容與霸凌有沒有關係？"],["何部長佩珊：我們有看過啊！但是我們不能公開這些東西。"],["廖委員偉翔：家屬不同意公開，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：我們要尊重家屬。"],["廖委員偉翔：家屬有說同意或不同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：如果委員想了解，我們得去問過家屬。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們有沒有認真調查這件事情？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然我們都去了解……"],["廖委員偉翔：它的內容到底是什麼？我想問你，家屬有確切表示不想讓人家知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，容我們尊重家屬，好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：有一部分是告訴家屬、有一部分是針對他在職場的事，有提到嗎？有提到他在職場上的相關資料嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為這個是家屬的痛啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：我當然知道是家屬的痛，我們都不希望憾事再發生。"],["何部長佩珊：對，如果你想要了解……"],["廖委員偉翔：我還是要回過頭來說，基本上，你透過外部的人、透過黨的系統去聯繫爆料的民代，其實民代的聯繫資料很容易尋得，隨便上網找就能找得到李議員服務處的聯絡方式，甚至在議會也都很容易找到，因此，我要告訴你，你這樣的行為就讓人覺得，這不是吃案，什麼是吃案？因你明明有很正當的管道可以聯繫，所以我要說這樣算不算是需要負責任？你在做這件事情之前，有沒有深思熟慮過？"],["何部長佩珊：我不認為這是吃案。"],["廖委員偉翔：你不認為這是吃案？你還是不認為這是吃案？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你透過黨的系統去聯繫爆料的民意代表，還說這不是吃案？"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有那樣的意圖。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我希望全國觀眾可以思考這個問題，這樣究竟有沒有間接施壓？這樣究竟是不是想要間接的壓新聞、間接的要人家不要再報下去了？"],["何部長佩珊：事實上……"],["廖委員偉翔：事實上，你可以用很正當的管道去告訴他們發生什麼事，我來向你報告、我把資料提供給你，但是你卻透過同一個派系的、湧言會的副秘書長去找李議員講，這不是吃案，什麼是吃案？好，謝謝。"],["主席（盧委員縣一代）：好，謝謝廖偉翔委員。","下一位請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00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協助這些無任所大使或者是協助其他民間相關的社團？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都樂意對這個運動來做推動。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們所屬的油、電、糖、水，我們都會把它建立一些球隊，我認為這個……我們也討論過。"],["陳委員培瑜：球隊現在都有了，但我講的是運動外交的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：它只有台電嘛，所以外交也不是只有台電可以做，我們有很多的國營事業都可以做。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，但我們現有的這個球隊部分有沒有機會？我剛剛以孟加拉這個案子為例，有沒有機會在後續促成一些合作的可能性？"],["郭部長智輝：我們要看這個計畫希望達到的成果是什麼，我想即使是國營的企業，對這些資助、贊助也必須要有目的。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯，我認同。"],["郭部長智輝：有目的，然後我們看到成果，這個我們才繼續推動下去。"],["陳委員培瑜：有目的跟有正當性我覺得這個很重要，尤其它是國家的預算，所以我後續有兩點最後的建議就是，除了我剛剛說的那個孩子夏天、冬天的育樂活動營，我認為這件事情要感謝你們持續的辦理，也希望給予相關球團跟球員肯定。最後一個就是運動外交的部分，至於怎麼樣讓這個經費跟預算合理的使用或者是你們可以扮演什麼樣的角色，我想後續我們是不是再來進行討論？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝董事長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，分秒不差。部長請回座。","下一位質詢請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純不在。","接下來請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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schedule嗎"},{"start":429.493,"end":450.239,"text":"目前這個階段是按原計劃的里程碑在進行當中所以都還沒有直言對於應該這樣講他有按里程碑交出這個成果但是這個成果的好與壞我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查所以我才貼給你看嘛是9月12號的會議紀錄啊"},{"start":452.777,"end":465.003,"text":"提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難這全部都是你們交的文件"},{"start":466.581,"end":489.718,"text":"報告委員這個是9月12號是由機場公司這邊的會議所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容的品質的問題所以預先請他要做檢討那他現在是11月15號已經提出完整的結果那當然我們就會依據他的內容的品質再來做審查來我們先看齁10月29號"},{"start":493.22,"end":508.079,"text":"接下來有履約管理會議那就是你剛剛所講的在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查你們之前在11月19號的時候說在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差"},{"start":509.721,"end":524.509,"text":"跟國際上面的標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足嗎現在這些問題都解決了嗎包委員這個就是我們在歷次的一個相關會議裡面包含我們的顧問這些的意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到"},{"start":526.51,"end":529.371,"text":"我這樣講好了啦你們前面啊在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子"},{"start":556.175,"end":581.779,"text":"後面就是一堆爛攤子我收到的檢舉是什麼我收到的檢舉是說目前這個李立這個詐騙廠商現在是要讓工程會去施壓要陳韻跟他和解是不是有收到這樣的消息嗎沒有收到這樣的消息目前陳韻是不是希望把他換成工研院"},{"start":583.77,"end":600.101,"text":"目前我們有得到承運的一個提出的請求他要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦把他加進來沒有把他踢出去"},{"start":601.298,"end":628.987,"text":"這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛明眼人一看就知道了嘛那現在他提出這樣子的申請你們會同意嗎包委員我想這個部分有一些會涉及到原來契約的一些要求的分工跟執行的內容跟相關採購法的規定所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍這我了解啦其實將心比心站在你們的位置上"},{"start":630.049,"end":650.724,"text":"我知道你們很痛苦因為連我在思考這件事情我都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子你讓他換那大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平你不讓他換他又沒有能力做下去那掩護的是我們整個機場的工程整個T3運輸的品質"},{"start":655.131,"end":676.407,"text":"大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情我向來的立場我從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事但是我們站在國家的立場遇到這種爛事遇到這種爛事最後就是全民來承擔嗎"},{"start":678.174,"end":686.207,"text":"最後就是全民來承擔了我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子但是回到部長一開始所講的有問題但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嗎"},{"start":692.699,"end":721.921,"text":"是嗎 部長保委員 程序上以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題那我們現在也在精進就是對未來如果有類似的案件我們當然要精進那另外就是我也有特別要求雖然這件事情有發生這些的這個過程但是我還是要求桃機公司在整個T3航廈未來的整個運輸系統不能夠去delay到不能夠延遲到這是我對桃機系統的要求桃機公司的要求"},{"start":722.281,"end":739.365,"text":"部長你的要求大家都聽到了啦我也不希望會發生delay的狀況但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話責任追究就很辛苦啦我最後只有跟交通部跟桃機有一個具體的要求這種詐騙廠商該負的責任要他負"},{"start":744.512,"end":767.606,"text":"該負的責任要他負沒有道理在這個過程裡面整個國家的利益因為前面的錯誤造成了犧牲結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住部長可不可以承諾好 這個部分沒有問題OK 好一定會依法來辦理謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長及桃機董事長。"],["主席：陳部長、楊董。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：之前我就關心過我們三航廈的標案，裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫做理立。我用「惡名昭彰」這個詞，聽起來是有點重，但是過去的敗行劣跡，我在好幾次的質詢中也一路追蹤下來。但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪，這種欺騙國人、甚至騙到經濟部莫名其妙給它一個獎，結果在美國的實績全部都是造假的公司，竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的標案，全體國人看得是目瞪口呆，這家公司到底是什麼後台，後台這麼硬，一直拿到莫名其妙的標案。上次請教過部長這件事，部長也說會回去查嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["黃委員國昌：後來我就陸陸續續收到交通部一些回函的檢討措施，所以我們就一樣一樣來看。","第一個，回答是說那次整個招標評選完全合法，我看了這個結論就非常訝異、就趕快進一步拜讀，這種詐騙的廠商是怎麼樣拿到標案。如果整個程序都合法，還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞，問題就嚴重了，等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下這種詐騙的廠商，茲事體大。進一步看，你們說那個時候它提出來的實績，因為要審查它的資格、它的能力、它的實績，我看你們回函的內容是臺鐵行控4.0。問題是臺鐵行控4.0，我之前質詢運安會的時候，運安會說的是什麼？那個東西根本不能用啊！我的問題就來了，一個重要的標案要評選廠商，前面要有實績嘛！它提出來的實績是一個爛得不得了的實績，連運安會的主委都說根本不能用。所以我們在評選的時候是什麼？看paperwork前面只要有標案，這樣就算數囉？部長，你覺得呢？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，關於你提醒的這個，我也覺得是有問題，所以我才會認為要再精進，因此在回復你的內容中，對於未來的評選方式應該要再精進。如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來，未來就必然要精進。"],["黃委員國昌：說得很好！部長在備詢的時候肯說出這個的確有問題，代表的是什麼？最起碼還願意誠實面對問題嘛！這是非常重要的第一步啊！誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題，我們接下來才要繼續看嘛！","T3運輸系統，可能部長所講的，未來要精進的部分，對於這種重要的系統技術，譬如行車管理系統，以後要單獨評選，不要全部混在一起嘛！全部混在一起，裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選，混水摸魚就過去了嘛！這一點我是認同的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們再往下看，這個案子履行到現在，你們的分包計畫還沒有核定，那個包商就對外宣稱已經核定了，有出現這樣的狀況嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：據我所知，應該還沒核定吧！"],["黃委員國昌：對，我知道還沒核定嘛！但是，部長，你看一下我附的，你們的會議紀錄警告那個包商，不要對外宣稱已經監造單位核定，以免產生爭議。你們會寫這樣的文字，代表的是什麼？代表他們已經在外面放話了，所以警告他們不要這樣幹。但我看實際上的過程，從2023年12月決標到現在，分包計畫書到目前還在協調，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：現在正在送審當中，我是不是請總經理說明？"],["黃委員國昌：可以、可以，請熟悉的人上來回答這個問題，我沒有要為難部長的意思，我們解決問題比較重要。"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，目前這個分包計畫是由成運公司還在檢討中，最近有提了……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的困惑是從決標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年，搞了快一年卻還在檢討，這樣到底來得及、來不及啊？"],["范總經理孝倫：我們是在今年初開工，在這個之後成運公司提了幾次分包計畫送審，但是我們的顧問團隊有意見，所以請它再修正，至於同步的一些細緻的工作則是同步在展開。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在具體的問，到時候時間到了，這個系統真的能用嗎？以我目前看來，整個進度緩慢得不得了，為什麼會緩慢得不得了？因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛！你在挑選時挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來，當然後面問題一堆嘛！現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊！我著眼的事情是剛剛部長所講的，除了承認有問題、要檢討問題之外，下一個是目前這個問題到底要怎麼解決？","我看目前的進度是這個樣子，我們再往下看，目前提交的車輛行車管理系統設計文件，缺乏完整系統架構，也沒有充分對應到你的需求，這樣還走得下去嗎？這樣還走得下去嗎？國家重要的建設，挑到一個爛廠商，出現這樣的狀況，行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構、也沒有辦法符合業主，也就是你們的需求，這樣怎麼辦？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，目前這個階段是處於細部設計的階段，按照里程碑，成運公司也在上周五提出它的細部設計成果，目前正由我們的顧問團隊審查中，我們會依照這個審查結果進行後續的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們到目前的進度都還是on schedule嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：目前這個階段是按原計畫的里程碑在進行當中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以都還沒有遲延？"],["范總經理孝倫：應該這樣講，它有按里程碑交出這個成果，但是這個成果的好與壞，我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才貼給你看嘛！是9月12號的會議紀錄，提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求啊！現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難，這全部都是你們交的文件啊！"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，這個是9月12號機場公司這邊會議，所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容品質的問題，所以預先請它要做檢討，它在11月15號已經提出完整的結果，那當然我們就會依據它的內容的品質再來做審查，並依約處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我們先看接下來10月29號的履約管理會議，就是你剛剛講的依約需在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查，你們在10月29號的會議紀錄中說「在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差」跟「參考國際標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足」，現在這些問題都解決了嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，我們在歷次相關會議裡這些意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到成運公司當時的文件品質的問題，所以先跟它做預告，剛剛已經報告了，他們在上個禮拜已經把全部的設計成果提出來，現在正由團隊做嚴格的審查中。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，你們前面在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關，接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子，後面就是一堆爛攤子！我收到的檢舉是目前這個詐騙廠商理立要讓工程會去施壓，要成運跟它和解，是不是？有收到這樣的消息嗎？沒有收到這樣的消息？目前成運是不是希望把它換成工研院？"],["范總經理孝倫：目前我們有得到成運提出的一個請求，要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來。"],["黃委員國昌：事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦！把工研院加進來，沒有把它踢出去，這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛！明眼人一看就知道了嘛！現在它提出這樣子的申請，你們會同意嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，我想這部分有一些會涉及到原來契約要求的分工跟執行的內容以及相關採購法的規定，所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍。"],["黃委員國昌：這我瞭解，其實將心比心，站在你們的位置上，我知道你們很痛苦，因為連我在思考這件事情時都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子，你讓它換，大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平；你不讓它換，它又沒有能力做下去，那延誤的是我們整個機場的工程，整個T3運輸的品質嘛！大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情。我向來的立場是從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭，廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事，但是我們站在國家的立場，遇到這種爛事，最後就是全民來承擔嘛！我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子。但是回到部長一開始所講的，有問題，但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嘛！是嗎？部長？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在程序上，以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題，那我們現在也在精進，就是未來如果有類似的案件，我們當然要精進。另外就是我也有特別要求，雖然這件事情有發生這些的過程，但是我還是要求桃機公司整個T3航廈未來的運輸系統不能夠delay，不能夠延遲，這是我對桃機公司的要求。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你的要求大家都聽到了，我也不希望會發生delay的狀況，但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話，責任追究就很辛苦了。最後我只跟交通部和桃機有一個具體的要求，這一種詐騙廠商，該負的責任要它負，該負的責任要它負！沒有道理在這個過程裡面，整個國家利益因為前面的錯誤造成的犧牲，結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商，這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住，部長可不可以承諾？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：OK！好。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會依法來辦理，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩、邱議瑩委員不在。","蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧委員不在。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來有請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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主席謝謝 麻煩你陳世凱部長好 陳部長"},{"start":14.468,"end":33.496,"text":"好部長好我也好部長這一次中華隊前往東京那我也看到說我們協助緊急加開國際航空的班機是把班機擴大所以增加座位是增加座位嘛那回來也都會有讓我們中華隊的選手有最舒適的座位可以回來是沒錯"},{"start":33.956,"end":44.189,"text":"那我想請教一下上個禮拜現在有沒有統計上禮拜在台灣大巨蛋打的比賽不管是韓國、日本、澳洲、古巴或多米尼加有多增加了多少的"},{"start":45.489,"end":69.084,"text":"人員進來到台灣來做觀光這個我沒有統計我這邊沒有統計的數字沒有統計我這邊沒有統計的數字部長為什麼本席會突然這樣問你看中華隊打進東京的時候就會有很多的球迷想要一起去加油是代表這就是一個很能夠push讓這一個主辦國家看到觀光亮點的機會是"},{"start":70.385,"end":99.586,"text":"一樣嘛過去不管是你說城市有講說演唱會經濟不管是新加坡邀請到一個歌手大咖的來的時候可以帶動這整個經濟那一樣世界十二強棒球賽的時候在大巨蛋能夠打這個比賽那照理講我們應該要把握這個機會去讓很多韓國的球迷日本的球迷來台灣幫他們自己國家的球隊加油以外也順便來觀光那結果"},{"start":100.799,"end":123.167,"text":"你說沒有這個統計代表可能在上個禮拜打完之後我們觀光相對來講都沒有想過說這是一個好的契機會不會有點可惜這個絕對是一個好的契機那我們在球場也確實有看到各國的加油的團隊也都有來所以確實是有一些觀光客的效益這個一定是有啦那不過委員在提醒的應該是要"},{"start":124.167,"end":146.714,"text":"比賽之前我們先到那一個國家先做宣傳讓大家知道利用這個機會所以本席就具體建議明年大巨蛋2月WBC世界棒球經典賽我們台灣要打資格賽沒辦法但是資格賽有三個國家包括西班牙、尼加拉瓜跟南非在2月19到2月26他們的國家代表隊會來台灣打比賽"},{"start":150.64,"end":172.369,"text":"那2026年正式臺灣我相信也一定可以拿到資格賽了2026年WBC世界棒球經典賽有分小組預賽跟最終的決賽2023年我們是有爭取到在臺灣小組預賽的時候就有在臺灣打那個時候是在洲際棒球場跟如果沒記錯的話應該是斗六棒球場那一樣"},{"start":173.209,"end":196.823,"text":"如果2026年未來再有這種重大大型賽事尤其是我們大家都覺得說可以一起加油的話是不是能夠拜託請觀光的同仁也一起把它納入變成是我們可以宣傳的亮點一起共同推廣不是運動的賽事就是啊這個棒鞋的事這個中華之棒的事啊這個是教育部的事這個是體育所的事沒有啊"},{"start":197.583,"end":216.358,"text":"其實他是可以有很多機會大家共同起來就如同這個禮拜突然間大家都要去日本所以班機也不夠住宿也暴漲那賺錢的也是日本人啊也是日本人賺到門票收入賺到飯店啊所以部長是"},{"start":217.657,"end":226.646,"text":"能不能未來不管明年的世界棒球競選賽、資格賽或者是2026年這種重大賽事甚至明年雙北市大運市狀運"},{"start":229.549,"end":253.975,"text":"臺北、新北有辦試撞運我們觀光署是中央機關但是也不要覺得說這個是地方政府的責任一起來把它納入變成是我們宣傳包裝的其中一環這樣可以嗎是,報告委員你這個建議非常好那未來只要面對國際的賽事有吸客的能力的國際賽事我覺得觀光署應該都要主動去各個國家去做這方面的宣傳那可以吸引更多的旅客過來絕對對台灣的觀光是有幫助的"},{"start":255.435,"end":274.686,"text":"尤其是他們有代表隊來打球的嘛部長另外一個部分今天當然有相關民航部分本席有看到無人機的管理我們現在預告修正無人機的管理規則要從16歲下修到14歲我可以請教一下這個動心起念的出發點是為何"},{"start":278.795,"end":294.192,"text":"主要就是為了要鼓勵這個中學生就是說希望他們有一些要在學校訓練或從小就是說從這個年紀他們需要一些操作中學生就國中七、八、九年級我們現在有多少學校有開這樣的課程"},{"start":295.333,"end":307.321,"text":"或是願意想看因為7、8、9年級照理講大概是義務教育那當初我先提一下說之前無人機的駕駛的這個執照16歲的時候就已經有一些民間團體會覺得疑慮因為16歲還沒有成年"},{"start":310.603,"end":325.555,"text":"那如果說他操作無人機真的有什麼樣的狀況不管是說他可能是撞到破壞到或者是說真的是掉落而不順有什麼樣的一個破壞或賠償的話16歲是未成年他有可能沒有辦法負起相關責任"},{"start":326.596,"end":341.206,"text":"那如果說我們現在從16歲又要再下修到14歲那會不會更引發這樣的一個狀況其實主要放寬的部分是操作的學習證而不是那個普通操作證或專業的所以他基本上學習證就要有專人在旁邊"},{"start":341.846,"end":362.213,"text":"所以也是要有教練也是要有老師就變成是說我們這14歲因為我們要釐清是現在我們看到說他的那個申請資格16歲下到14歲甚至各類操作證的校期要從兩年放寬成三年所以第一校期是放寬第二年齡是下修當然外界會有疑慮那現在還公告期"},{"start":362.973,"end":389.547,"text":"所以你剛剛只是確認是說你未來下修16歲變14歲但他也不是所有14歲的學生都可以他要使用要操作還是要有專人在旁邊指導所謂的放寬是因為他要學習所以要去申請這個證不是所有的學生說14歲你就都可以去操作不是是為了學習而需要的操作證那如果對這個沒興趣的人就不用來學習那學習的人就是要有專人在旁邊"},{"start":390.367,"end":404.036,"text":"那剛剛講的校旗就是那你這樣意思還是說就放寬14歲以上就可以去考照啊可以來學習然後就可以考照那考到照之後我們現在講說考到照之後他能不能自己就操作要18歲"},{"start":405.168,"end":424.67,"text":"要18歲才能操作是不是這個部分我覺得還是要再說明清楚一點因為我們有看到媒體報導以及現在公告期當然公告期完之後還會再修正是不是更嚴謹的狀況我們鼓勵學生學習的狀況但是另外一方面對於無人機的操作我們還是要有一定的一個規範標準"},{"start":425.891,"end":439.615,"text":"好 謝謝委員我們這部分來加強宣導那因為法令已經發布了然後就是12月1號會開始來實施那至於剛剛講的這一塊我們來看看怎麼樣去做宣導的相關的圖卡或是說明清楚謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1045,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時44分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請陳世凱部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這次中華隊前往東京，我也看到我們協助緊急加開國籍航空的班機。"],["陳部長世凱：把班機擴大，加開座位。"],["洪委員孟楷：增加座位嘛！同時也讓我們中華隊的選手有最舒適的座位可以回來。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想請教一下，你們有沒有統計，上個禮拜在臺灣大巨蛋打的比賽，無論是韓國、日本、澳洲、古巴或多明尼加，增加了多少人到臺灣觀光？"],["陳部長世凱：關於這個部分，我這邊沒有統計的數字。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有統計？"],["陳部長世凱：我這邊沒有統計的數字。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，為什麼本席會突然這樣問？你看，中華隊打進東京的時候，很多的球迷就會想要去加油，代表這就是一個讓主辦國家看到觀光亮點的機會。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：一樣嘛！過去我們講城市有演唱會經濟，譬如新加坡邀請到大咖歌手去演唱時可以帶動整個經濟，一樣的，世界十二強棒球賽的時候，在大巨蛋能夠打這個比賽，照理講，我們應該要把握這個機會，讓韓國的球迷、日本的球迷來臺灣幫自己國家的球隊加油以外，也順便來觀光，結果你說沒有這個統計，代表可能在上個禮拜打完之後，相對來講，我們的觀光單位都沒想過，這是一個好的契機，會不會有點可惜？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這絕對是一個好的契機。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["陳部長世凱：我們在球場也確實看到各國加油的團隊都有來，確實是有一些觀光客的效應，這個一定是有啦！不過，委員要提醒的應該是在比賽之前，我們先到那個國家去宣傳。"],["洪委員孟楷：宣傳，讓大家知道，利用這個機會。因此，本席具體建議，明年大巨蛋2月有WBC世界棒球經典賽，我們臺灣要打資格賽，沒辦法，但是資格賽有3個國家，包括西班牙、尼加拉瓜及南非，在2月19日到2月26日，他們的國家代表隊會來臺灣比賽。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我相信2026年臺灣一定也可以拿到資格賽，而且2026年WBC世界棒球經典賽有分小組預賽及最終的決賽，之前2023年我們有爭取到在臺灣進行小組預賽，那個時候是在洲際棒球場，如果沒記錯的話，應該是斗六棒球場。一樣，如果未來2026年再有這種大型賽事，尤其是我們大家覺得可以一起加油的話，是不是能夠拜託，請觀光署的同仁也一起納入，變成是我們可以宣傳的亮點，一起共同推廣？並不是運動賽事就是棒協的事、就是中華職棒的事、就是教育部的事、就是體育署的事，沒有喔！"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實它有很多共同的機會可以讓大家一起來，譬如這個禮拜大家都要去日本，所以班機也不夠、住宿也暴漲，賺錢的也是日本人啊！也是日本人賺到門票收入、賺到飯店住宿費啊！因此，部長，未來能不能，不管是明年的世界棒球經典賽，或是2026年的重大賽事、甚至是明年的雙北世大運、世壯運，臺北與新北有辦世壯運，雖然觀光署是中央機關，但也不要認為這是地方政府的責任，一起將它納入變成是我們宣傳包裝的其中一環，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你這個建議非常好，未來只要面對國際的賽事、有吸客能力的國際賽事，我覺得觀光署應該都要主動去各個國家做這方面的宣傳，可以吸引更多的旅客過來，對臺灣的觀光絕對是有幫助的。"],["洪委員孟楷：尤其是他們有代表隊來打球的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，另外一個是與民航相關的部分，本席看到現在預告修正無人機的管理規則，要從16歲下修到14歲，可不可以請教一下，這個動心起念的出發點為何？"],["陳部長世凱：我是不是請何局長說明？"],["洪委員孟楷：來，麻煩簡單說明。"],["何局長淑萍：報告委員，主要是為了鼓勵中學生，希望他們有一些能在學校訓練，而且在這個年紀需要一些操作。"],["洪委員孟楷：中學生就是國中？"],["何局長淑萍：就是17歲，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：七、八、九年級？"],["何局長淑萍：等於往下。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在有多少學校開這樣的課程？或是願意、想要開設？照理講，七、八、九年級都還是義務教育。之前無人機駕駛的執照開放到16歲就已經有一些民間團體覺得疑慮，因為16歲還沒有成年，如果他操作無人機時真的有什麼樣的狀況，可能是撞到、破壞到或真的是不慎掉落，導致有什麼破壞或賠償的話，16歲是未成年，有可能無法負起相關責任，如果我們現在從16歲又要再下修到14歲，會不會更引發這樣的狀況？"],["何局長淑萍：其實主要放寬的部分是操作的學習證，而不是普通操作證或專業的，基本上，學習證就要有專人陪在旁邊。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以也是要有教練、也是要有老師。"],["何局長淑萍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我們要釐清，現在看到的申請資格要從16歲下修到14歲，甚至各類操作證的效期也要從2年放寬成3年，因此，第一是效期放寬、第二是年齡下修，當然外界會有疑慮。現在還是公告期，剛剛你是確認雖然未來將從16歲下修到14歲，但也不是所有14歲的學生都可以，要使用、要操作，還是要有專人在旁邊指導。"],["何局長淑萍：所謂的放寬，因為他要學習就要去申請這個證，不是所有14歲的學生都可以去操作，不是，是為了學習而需要的操作證。如果對這個沒興趣的人就不用來學習，想學習的人就要有專人在旁邊。至於剛剛講的效期……"],["洪委員孟楷：你這樣的意思還是放寬14歲以上就可以去考照啊！"],["何局長淑萍：可以來學習操作。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後就可以考照？考到照之後，他能不能就自己操作？"],["何局長淑萍：要18歲。"],["洪委員孟楷：要18歲才能操作，是不是？"],["何局長淑萍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得這個部分還是要再說明清楚一點，因為我們看到媒體報導以及現在的公告期，當然在公告期結束之後，還會再修正，是不是更嚴謹的狀況？我們鼓勵學生學習，但另外一方面，對於無人機的操作，我們還是要有一定的規範標準，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：好，謝謝委員，我們會加強這個部分的宣導，因為法令已經發布了，12月1日就會開始實施。至於剛剛講的這一塊，我們看看如何製作宣導的相關圖卡或app。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，說明清楚。"],["何局長淑萍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。","接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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12:44:42","影片長度":"00:06:51","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金－民航事業作業基金分預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預算。\n【本日僅進行詢答】【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-20","start_time":"2024-11-20T12:37:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T12:44:42+08:00","duration":411,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.69221875,"end":8.265968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.126593750000001,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.26159375,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":18.660968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.46659375,"end":24.094718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.769718750000003,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.296593750000003,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.87409375,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.71659375,"end":51.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.28034375,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.52909375,"end":53.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.52034375,"end":56.275343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.47346875,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.38034375,"end":61.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.962218750000005,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.69159375000001,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.02034375000001,"end":69.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":70.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.36596875000001,"end":71.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.91846875,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.66471875,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.21284375,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.96784375,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.21159375,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.36284375000001,"end":91.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.33721875,"end":94.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.00346875000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.82159375,"end":99.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.20096875,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.16909375,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.16784375,"end":131.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.17909375000002,"end":133.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.66409375,"end":140.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.73471875,"end":141.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.13534375,"end":145.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.60721875000002,"end":149.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.47596875000002,"end":158.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.43659375000001,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.00159375,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.98034375,"end":166.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.39284375,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.47659375,"end":174.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.77159375000002,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.09096875,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.13284375,"end":187.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.76534375,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.48159375,"end":195.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.25346875000002,"end":199.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.91534375,"end":205.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.33221875,"end":207.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.47096875000003,"end":210.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.40721875000003,"end":214.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.18721875,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.72221875000002,"end":223.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.50659375,"end":224.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.17721875,"end":225.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.88596875000002,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.73784375000002,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.01159375,"end":233.0578437500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個部落沙崎萊爾族一個國服部落他們要蓋部落聚會所"},{"start":284.226,"end":309.496,"text":"因為那個地方就是國防部的這個航空的一個航線一個航線按照國防部的規定不可以蓋那個部落就業所因為會一個航線我就會勘實地會勘我跟那個國防部的官員講"},{"start":311.391,"end":337.759,"text":"旁邊就是你們蓋的那個瞭望台他們蓋的我們的我說我們的部落機會數比這個瞭望台還低我們蓋的部落機會數比這個樹還低這樣還不能嗎他回去簽辦之後就可以了所以這個部分是有空間的有空間的尤其是"},{"start":339.4,"end":362.528,"text":"民用航空法在108年6月10日在立法院經過我們三讀通過之後把遙控無人機列了一個第九章之二本來沒有啊 特別列了而且是109年3月31日施行要把它法制化"},{"start":363.493,"end":372.85,"text":"法治化當然這個發生是在1093月31號之前但是因為既然要法治化表示之前的有問題"},{"start":374.995,"end":396.866,"text":"表示之前的規定是有問題所以這個不是有空間的有解釋的空間我是老公務員30年我也不會讓公務員去違法所以這個是好好的參考我的過去的質詢跟會議記錄來作為一個妥善的處理就不要去罰我上次講的"},{"start":398.047,"end":407.432,"text":"不要變成交通部民航局去處罰我們原住民的部落我希望不要產生這個我們依法處理依法辦理謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1033,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時37分）主席，有請部長及民航局長。"],["主席：陳部長、何局長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好、局長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：卑南族在2020年1月28日舉辦卑南族的聯合年祭，為了記錄這個非常棒、非常好的年祭，於是就用空拍機拍攝，因為不需要拍得太高，高度大概是20公尺左右，但是這個拍攝的人就被裁罰了30萬元，為了這件事，本席也曾經與部落到臺東機場門口抗議。2021年9月27日本席也再次質詢當時的交通部長、也在9月29日召開協調會、也在2021年10月14日發文給民航局、並在2021年11月3日再次質詢當時的交通部長。當然本席也召開過協調會，而且都是依法論理，民航局回去之後可以把我過去的質詢及協調會的紀錄做為參考資料。在2024年，也就是今年的2月22日，本席會同卑南族的鄉親到臺北高等行政法院聲援南王部落空拍機案，那時要開庭。我們非常謝謝臺北高等行法院在今年9月19日判決撤銷訴願決定及原處分，對於當初無論是召開協調會或質詢時我所提出的意見，法院都予以採納。","因為時間的關係，我就再次簡要的說明，民用航空法第三十四條第三項特別提到，前二項所訂一定距離範圍，由交通部會同有關機關劃定公告。因此，你們就針對劃定公告訂定了一個要點，規定「民用航空局為執行機場四週禁止施放有礙飛航安全物體，特訂定本要點。」在要點中提到「自機場標高起算之六十公尺以上高度」，訂了這樣的一個規定，而這個高度裡面有一個非常不合理的地方，在哪裡呢？禁止建築的高度、限建建築物的高度是118.69公尺，但我們的空拍機比這個低得多，這個情形就是不合理的地方。我常常舉這個例子，就在臺東機場附近、前面而已，娜路彎大酒店很高，我們的空拍機比這個低得多，另外在臺東火車站附近，遙控無人機飛得比限建高度還低，所以這些都是不合理的。","我舉一個案例讓部長及民航局了解，在花蓮有一個撒奇萊雅族的國福部落，他們要蓋部落聚會所，但那個地方是國防部航空的一個航線，按照國防部的規定，不可以蓋部落聚會所，因為那裡是航線的區域。後來我就去實地會勘，我告訴國防部的官員，旁邊就是你們蓋的瞭望台，我們的聚會所比這個瞭望台還低、我們蓋的部落聚會所比這個樹還低，這樣還不能嗎？後來他回去簽辦之後就可以了。因此，這個部分是有空間的、有空間的，尤其是民用航空法，108年6月10日在立法院經過我們三讀通過之後，針對遙控無人機列了一個第九章之二，本來沒有啊！特別列了，而且是109年3月31日施行，要將它法制化。當然這件事情是發生在109年3月31日之前，但是既然要法制化，那就表示之前的規定是有問題，所以這個部分是有空間的、有解釋的空間。","我是30年的老公務員、我也不會讓公務員違法，因此，這個可以好好參考我在過去的質詢及會議紀錄作為妥善的處理，誠如我上次講的，不要變成交通部、民航局處罰我們原住民的部落，我希望不要發生這樣的事情，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們依法處理、依法辦理，謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席請交通部部長陳部長民航局局長何局長部長請問一下過去時不時都會有我們松山機場要不要遷移的話題以目前來講交通部有任何要遷移松山機場的計畫嗎"},{"start":32.418,"end":51.993,"text":"我們目前至少我上任之後沒有做這樣子的討論沒有這樣討論也沒有這樣的計畫嘛那所以松山機場的存在事實上它除了這個民航之外當然它也有軍事相關的用途那我就要請問一下松山機場那麼事實上因為機場的存在"},{"start":55.396,"end":82.09,"text":"所以它附近居民就有包含限高、限艦、禁艦相關的規定對不對就如同這個桃園機場也是一樣那麼所以長期以來我們民航局就對於這個國營航空站就有相關的補助的計畫那麼事實上大家都知道以台北市來說那麼我們很多房子都老舊"},{"start":83.123,"end":97.468,"text":"那麼在松山機場周邊他因為限高的規定事實上他們也有就是會影響到他們的這個都更的一些相關的計畫所以我想請問一下"},{"start":99.329,"end":112.776,"text":"我們松山機場如果沒有任何遷建遷移計畫的話那麼松山機場是不是可以比照桃園機場給予相關的包含房屋稅跟地價稅相關的補貼"},{"start":115.937,"end":135.522,"text":"報告委員這個房屋稅跟地價稅這個是地方稅那這個部分其實應該要用臺北市政府來做這方面的研議那我們民航局這邊看要怎麼樣配合我們可以來配合所以因為在桃園機場的部分現在是尤其對於淨線件淨線件的房屋稅是打7折對不對"},{"start":138.723,"end":150.526,"text":"那麼雖然我們現在名為所謂的好像是照應相關的補助但是事實上你們的規定裡面針對房屋稅跟地價稅是可以一於補助的嘛對不對"},{"start":151.574,"end":172.592,"text":"我們沒有特別限定補助的項目沒有特別限定但是也沒有指出說這個房屋稅跟地價稅是可以或不可以的對沒有錯所以在這個部分當然我們現在在臺北市也有一些我們地方和民意代表希望桃園機場因為對不起松山機場因為過去常常都在吵說松山機場要不要簽件"},{"start":176.315,"end":201.716,"text":"但是呢其實後來大家都知道松山機場簽建簡直是其實是非常非常困難而且我們也願意維持首都要有機場嘛而且它還有這個軍用機場的相關的功能所以我在這邊呢我就希望能夠在臺北市他們提出有關於包含禁線建的房屋還有附近居民受到影響的房屋那麼當他們全部都已經把它做一個"},{"start":204.858,"end":225.362,"text":"整理跟研擬的之後我們交通部是不是也可以協助能夠讓我們搜山機場旁邊的讓這些市民他們所受到的這些影響或者他們所受到的損失允許給他們一個合理的補助部長可不可以"},{"start":227.333,"end":242.342,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們會納入討論就是說當臺北市政府有研議出一套辦法那民航局當然我們本來就每一年都有一些補助的經費或者是補償的經費那到時候看要怎麼討論大家一起來討論好 謝謝部長那另外其實我們也非常希望就是桃園有桃園航空城"},{"start":250.046,"end":261.399,"text":"那松山機場現在不簽件其實它也可以發展一個小型的航空城過去當時在好市長的任內曾經有提出一個就是松山機場的一個相關的開發計畫"},{"start":264.983,"end":290.804,"text":"也就是說其實松山機場的存在而不應該以去犧牲附近居民不管他都更的機會或者他有可能的開發的機會作為一個代價所以如果桃園做航空城那我們當然沒有問題但是松山機場也可以去規劃能不能做一個像小型的航空城這個部分是不是也可以請交通部能夠納入計畫來考量"},{"start":293.266,"end":312.361,"text":"好 我們做整體的規劃對 做整體規劃機場的周邊包含剛剛委員所提示的這個補助的部分我們做整體的討論對 然後包含它這個進線線的區域有沒有必要劃到那麼大比如說像尤其在那個機場的後面其實它等於是在台北市來講是一個說實在連那邊公車都很少然後"},{"start":319.446,"end":333.86,"text":"那個也都人煙罕至只有這個修車廠而已其實這是非常非常可惜的好不好如果我們可以有整體的小型航空城的規劃我相信會有不同的面貌好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":999,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時32分）謝謝主席，請交通部部長。"],["主席（魯委員明哲）：陳部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：民航局局長。"],["主席：何局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，請問一下，過去時不時都會有松山機場是否要遷移的話題，以目前來講，交通部有任何要遷移松山機場的計畫嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前，至少我上任之後，沒有做這樣的討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有這樣的討論、也沒有這樣的計畫嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：事實上，松山機場的存在，除了作為民航使用之外，當然它也有軍事相關的用途。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我就要請問一下，因為機場的存在，附近居民就有包含限高、限建及禁建的相關規定，對不對？如同桃園機場也是一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：因此，長期以來，我們民航局對於國營航空站就有相關的補助計畫。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：事實上，大家都知道，以臺北市來說，很多房子都已經老舊，在松山機場周邊因為限高的規定，其實也會影響都更的一些相關計畫。因此，我想請問一下，如果松山機場沒有任何遷建、遷移的計畫，那麼松山機場是不是可以比照桃園機場，給予包含房屋稅及地價稅等相關的補貼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，房屋稅與地價稅都是地方稅，應該要由臺北市政府做這方面的研議，看要我們民航局這邊如何配合，我們可以配合。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前桃園機場的部分對於禁限建的房屋稅是打七折，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：雖然現在好像是名為噪音相關的補助，事實上，你們的規定針對房屋稅與地價稅是可以給予補助的，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我們沒有特別限定補助的項目，但也沒有指出房屋稅及地價稅是可以或不可以。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒有錯。針對這個部分，現在臺北市也有一些地方人士及民意代表提出，因為過去常常都在吵松山機場要不要遷建，後來大家也都知道松山機場遷建非常非常的困難，而且我們也願意維持首都要有機場，更何況它還有軍用機場相關的功能。因此，我們希望能夠針對臺北市禁限建的房屋以及附近居民受到影響的房屋，當他們全部都做了整理及研擬之後，交通部是不是也可以協助，讓松山機場旁邊市民受到的影響或損失得到合理的補助？部長，可不可以？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們會將這個部分納入討論。當臺北市政府研議出一套辦法，而我們民航局本來每一年就有一些補助的經費或補償的經費，到時候看要怎麼做，大家再一起來討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝部長。","另外，桃園有桃園航空城，既然松山機場現在不遷建，其實它也發展一個小型的航空城啊！過去在郝市長的任內，曾經提出一個松山機場的相關開發計畫，也就是說，其實松山機場的存在不應該以犧牲附近居民的都更機會或有可能開發的機會作為代價，因此，如果桃園可以做航空城，我們當然也沒有問題，松山機場應該也可以規劃看看能否做一個小型的航空城，這個部分是不是也可以請交通部納入計畫來考量？"],["陳部長世凱：我們做整體的規劃。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，做整體的規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：機場的週邊，包含剛剛委員提示補償的部分，我們做整體的討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，包含禁限建的區域有沒有必要劃到那麼大，尤其是在機場的後面，說實在的，那個地方在臺北市來講，連公車都很少，可以說是人煙罕至，只有修車廠而已，其實這是非常非常可惜的，好不好？如果我們可以有整體的小型航空城規劃，我相信會有不同的面貌，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會做整體的討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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：一、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":189.637,"end":203.074,"text":"前瞻這兩個為二的地方為什麼差這麼多然後呢我們興達海基除了中東的子公司之外我們的國發的基金也有投資請問學氣管的次長你要不要對這兩個公司的命運稍微解釋一下"},{"start":204.438,"end":222.271,"text":"我講因為我們在發展這個離岸風電我們都需要有這些海下基礎工程的這些業者來協助那當然企業的經營有他的好啊那我們海上我們都需要只要能夠為我們本土的這個產業能夠發展我們都樂觀其成但是你看看當初你們宣稱可以產生1.2兆的產值2萬個工作機會但是我都拿審計部的報告來喔"},{"start":233.439,"end":250.223,"text":"第二個階段當中你們10個風場去年有9座是落後的而且呢海峽一期的風場本土化目標只有2成我們再往下來看你們當初告訴我們你們編列了2億8千萬左右然後你們給我們的升級輔導計畫裡面怎麼講你告訴我市場需求需要337座然後呢你們一連串的做下來不管累積的339座新達跟世紀總共要108座結果呢"},{"start":261.386,"end":263.227,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":277.791,"end":279.754,"text":"我們不斷的編預算我一直強調扶持本土工業沒有問題我們也很希望當初我在第9任立委的時候我就正於經濟部要培植國產的這個風電產業我已經提出了非常多質疑你們信誓旦旦數據會說謊"},{"start":293.433,"end":321.13,"text":"告訴我們跟我們要錢的時候告訴我們是339座你們做得到現在只有53座然後國內的供應鏈一年都可以慘賠到64億一年虧10億然後你現在為止因為WTO的問題現在已經想要拿掉國產化和政策的保護沒有國產化和政策保護你覺得這些供應鏈還有什麼辦法存活還有什麼辦法存活這些都是我們在之前已經提出來過了所以我真的還需要問的它的未來在哪裡"},{"start":321.81,"end":340.197,"text":"新島海基目前為止連一張離岸風電的訂單都沒有繼續燒錢海創中心本來說是一個非常棒的訓練中心現在變成出海前的人員訓練中心而且台灣目前為止你不知道風電的技術多麼多麼的先進目前為止我們是9.5、8到9.5的MW但是你不要忘記未來是14到15的MW我們完全沒有這個辦法"},{"start":348.88,"end":374.196,"text":"所以你告訴我們到底是怎麼一回事我們這個前瞻的錢還要繼續投資下去嗎目前的數據完全告訴你的落差這麼大還要再投資下去嗎你若要我們投資下去你是不是可以給我們一個理由給我們一個分析的理由而且我覺得台北港的世紀港訂單接不完而我們高雄的這個地方就連連虧損我真的覺得民進黨政府真的是重北輕難啦重北輕難啦 對不對"},{"start":376.557,"end":396.874,"text":"市長 那我們高雄的這個部分就要到我們這樣子虧這麼多 台北的都可以賺這麼多我跟委員報告一下 其實我們也在協助這個星達海基那是不是也可以有一些這個離岸風電的這些商機也能夠來給這個我當然也希望啊 能夠本土 但是你的數據我剛才還是強調數據會算因為數據差距這麼多 數據差這麼多技術這麼樣不讓你前進 你是要檢討你的政策"},{"start":405.06,"end":433.046,"text":"提供這個新打廠能夠讓我們這個部分符合你們當初所承諾的沒有問題但是經過這麼多年來我們以前提出這個問題沒有部分來解決而且更何況我們拿掉了國產的保護化測試之後你看這些該怎麼辦中央可以把很多錢給予中央的福利可是配合政府的政策還要國發基金進來結果竟然虧損連連你讓中央員工的很多福利因此受到損害我當然為高雄的中央講一句話難道不是嗎"},{"start":434.868,"end":459.254,"text":"我想我們會來協助新南海基我還是希望你如果要我們放這樣的一個預算進去請你拿出你們可以解決的方法包括現在的問題、未來的問題還有我剛所點出了從8到9的Megawatts你們都目前為止可以未來已經到14到15了歐洲的部分我們還有辦法拿到離岸封停的訂單嗎?現在沒有當初你們告訴我陪日本土化你們可以拿到這些訂單我們非常好"},{"start":460.774,"end":478.432,"text":"希望大家能夠透過國外的藝術精進可以讓我們國內可以發展顯然廠商都撤離了還沒有達到這個一張一張訂單都沒有這個部分姿勢體大次長你務必給我們一個交代這才是我們今天審慎前瞻最主要的監督的目的謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝柯志恩委員接著請王煌威委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1986,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（12時55分）謝謝召委，請經濟部何次長。"],["主席：何次長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：次長好。經濟部能源署在高雄的興達港設立的「高雄海洋科技產業創新專區」，我們就稱為海創區好了，我想請問，這項計畫總經費是42.63億元，後來因為展延，現在增加到51.49億元，第二期又多了一個深水池，興建的工程又多了3.78億元，你覺得成效如何？"],["何次長晉滄：是不是我請我們……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，次長你回答。你就告訴我你覺得成效如何嘛，因為我們今天時間非常有限。"],["何次長晉滄：我們成效是有達到當初我們設計的……"],["柯委員志恩：有嗎？有成效？不然我們來看一下有沒有達到這個部分。審計部的決算報告告訴我們，因為你們的介面整合很複雜、建置技術難度很高，所以工程一再的展延，重要的是當初說好要做的離岸風電廠商海上訓練及實驗場域的期程，現在很多廠商已經進駐了九成，但是你們的收入完全不敷營運的支出，而且虧損不斷的擴大，對於你們所要培訓的人次也沒有達到標準，然後都有呈現收入衰退的狀況。所以你如何告訴我，跟你們當初的預估的目標是一致的？次長。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，因為當初這個計畫我們是初期的投資，投資的金額比較高一點，我們後續在整個維運的時候，我們會慢慢……"],["柯委員志恩：是啊！是投資金額高一點，那你們還要更高吔！你們目前還要再投資7.83億元，而且要求中鋼投資68.42億元成立了一個子公司叫做興達海基，還要成立3個中心。我們往下看，結果你看看，中鋼投資的興達海基，這是國內唯二水下基礎供應商，6年虧了64億元，而且最重要的是完全沒有風電的業務。我們當初希望是能夠有風電的一個實驗場，培植我們本土的人員、培植我們本土的技術，然後你旗下20餘家的協力廠商員工爆了離職潮，次長，你有掌握嗎？6年64億元，然後你是學企管的。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["柯委員志恩：然後我們接下來再來看一下，我再告訴你一個，水下有唯二的，一個興達海基是我們中鋼的子公司，6年虧了64億；另外一個世紀鋼在臺北港，賺得非常的多，當然是董事長很認真，當然他也是我們蔡英文總統競選時，所謂離岸風電後援會的會長，對於他們的成就我們當然給予肯定，但是他們5年的市值成長20倍，股價從不到10塊，現在是205塊哦！是怎樣，這兩個唯二的地方為什麼差這麼多？然後興達海基除了中鋼的子公司之外，我們的國發基金也有投資。請問學企管的次長，你要不要對這兩個公司的命運稍微解釋一下？"],["何次長晉滄：因為我們在發展離岸風電都需要這些海下基礎工程業者來協助，當然企業的經營有它的……"],["柯委員志恩：好啊，那海上……我們都需要，只要能夠讓本土的產業能夠發展，我們都樂觀其成。但是你看看，當初你們宣稱可以產生1.2兆元的產值，2萬個工作機會，我就拿審計部的報告來，第二個階段當中，你們10個風場去年有9座是落後的，而且海峽一期的風場本土化目標只有兩成。我們再往下來看，你們當初告訴我們，你們編列了2億8,000萬元左右，然後你們給的升級輔導計畫裡面怎麼講？你告訴我市場需求需要337座，然後你們一連串的做下來，不管累計339座、興達海基跟世紀鋼總共108座，結果呢？","我們要培植我們的產業，非常好啊！結果是怎麼樣？次長，你看一下，到目前為止，到6月底為止供應的部分，你們告訴我們是339座，現在只有53座，怎麼會落差這麼大？前瞻到底在幹嘛？我們不斷的編預算，我一直強調扶持本土工業沒有問題，我們也很希望，當初我在第9屆立委的時候，就對於經濟部要培植國產的風電產業，我已經提出了非常多質疑，你們信誓旦旦，數據會說話，跟我們要錢的時候告訴我們339座你們做得到，現在只有53座，然後國內的供應鏈6年你都可以慘賠到64億，一年虧10億。到現在為止，因為WTO的問題，現在已經想要拿掉國產化政策的保護，沒有國產化的政策保護，你覺得這些供應鏈還有什麼辦法存活？還有什麼辦法存活？這些都是我們在之前已經提出來過，所以我真的還是要問，它的未來在哪裡？","興達海基目前為止，連一張離岸風電的訂單都沒有，繼續燒錢。海創中心本來說是一個非常棒的訓練中心，現在變成出海前的人員訓練中心，而且臺灣目前為止，你不知道風電的技術多麼多麼的先進，目前為止我們是8到9.5MW，但是你不要忘記，未來是14到15MW，我們完全沒有辦法，所以你告訴我們到底是怎麼一回事？前瞻的錢還要繼續投資下去嗎？目前的數據完全告訴你落差這麼大，還要再投資下去嗎？你如果要我們投資下去，是不是可以給我們一個理由？要給我們一個分析的理由，而且我覺得臺北港的世紀鋼訂單接不完，我們高雄這個地方就連連虧損，我覺得民進黨政府真的是重北輕南啊！重北輕南啊！對不對？為什麼高雄這個部分就要讓我們虧這麼多，臺北的都可以賺這麼多？"],["何次長晉滄：我跟委員報告一下，其實我們也在協助興達海基，是不是可以有一些離岸風電的商機能夠給興達海基……"],["柯委員志恩：我當然很希望啊！能夠本土，但是你的數據，我剛剛還是強調，數據會說話……"],["何次長晉滄：是，我們會來協助。"],["柯委員志恩：那個數據差距這麼多，數據差這麼多，技術不斷地前進，你是不是要檢討你的政策？提供興達廠，能夠讓這個部分符合你們當初所承諾的沒有問題，但是經過這麼多年來，我們以前提出這個問題沒有部分來解決，更何況我們拿掉了國產化保護撤資之後，你看這些該怎麼辦？中鋼可以把他們很多錢給予中鋼的福利，可是配合政府的政策，還有國發基金進來，結果竟然虧損連連，你讓中鋼員工的很多福利因此受到損害欸！我當然要為高雄的中鋼講一句話，難道不是嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是，我想我們會來協助興達海基，因為它來……"],["柯委員志恩：我還是希望，你如果要我們放這樣的預算進去，請你拿出可以解決的方法，包括現在的問題、未來的問題，還有我剛剛所點出的，從8到9MW你們目前為止可以，未來人家已經到14到15MW了，歐洲的部分，我們還有辦法拿到離岸風電的訂單嗎？現在沒有！當初你們告訴我培植本土化可以拿到這些訂單，我們覺得非常好，希望大家能夠透過國外的技術引進，讓我們國內也可以發展，顯然廠商都撤離了還沒有達到這個目標，一張訂單都沒有，這個部分茲事體大，次長，你務必給我們一個交代，這才是我們今天審前瞻最主要監督的目的，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員。","接著請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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​​​114年度》"},{"start":55.733,"end":82.938,"text":"提供44萬元來推動社區的公共化托育、托育資源中心和有效安置機構等等可是我們卻看到這個在立法院的預算中心的報告裡面有講到我們這個在部分工作項目我們現在截至113年的6月底累積預算的達成率欠佳與績效指標連年未達標的情形應該要檢討改善那相關的進度就例如說"},{"start":84.454,"end":99.132,"text":"我們在部件托育資源中心只有66.72%社區公共托育設施只有61.8%補助各縣市的增設兒少緊急與中長期安全機構的達成率更低低到46.54%"},{"start":100.974,"end":128.849,"text":"所以我們的預算執行率效率不佳那當然社交處是有說明說因為其實是因為營建成本的上漲導致多次流標以及地方政府規劃變更與行政作業程序的繁瑣已經函請了行政院公共工程委員會來協助改善這些招標文件但是我想針對於這些進度緩慢、績效指標未達標的情形我們是不是還有更具體的一個改善空間呢?"},{"start":129.89,"end":150.505,"text":"好,謝謝委員的指教。那委員也有提到,他的言音執行落後燈嘛,當然是地方政府工程標案多次流標、規劃設計多次修正。那有時候變成接合新建工程所需要的費用高,等等的這些,都是影響到社區公共、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公、公。"},{"start":151.486,"end":158.913,"text":"受施進度及經費執行為如意期。我們都有函請跟派員來督導,實地訪朝,還請專家來輔導,從各方面的專家來輔導。所以我們也有盡力在幫忙他們來完成這樣的一個進度。"},{"start":172.523,"end":181.282,"text":"對,但是我們是連續兩年都沒有達標耶。我們是不是還可以有更積極的一個諮詢效率跟資源使用成效的一個方案呢?"},{"start":182.168,"end":208.66,"text":"由資料呈現其實是有其實是有成長像我們已經大概有到達76.42%都已經結案了我想部長因為我們其實因為少子化是一個國家面臨到一個大的挑戰所以我覺得這個還是要詳細的而且精進的一些做法但另外就是說我們在這個因為現在其實我們雖然有在討論這個彈性家庭彈性暈價跟"},{"start":211.221,"end":213.962,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":232.25,"end":233.43,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":260.666,"end":289.605,"text":"委員好部長好就是我想請問一下就是說我們現在有一個叫做國家文化記憶庫2.0的一個特別預算案是我們非常重要的一個計畫可是一樣就是回到我們的前瞻第4期的執行是沒有如預期的像是我們的這個國家記憶庫及數位博物館應用只有到71.8%的一個執行率那你們是說因為系統防護、效能需求所以需要重新調整研擬細部工項所以才會延擋"},{"start":291.166,"end":306.02,"text":"但是我們也發現在國家文化記憶庫裡面可做下載做非商業用途的授權比例也只有達到25.84%跟26.26%其實比整體54.56%都還來得非常非常之低"},{"start":312.245,"end":337.133,"text":"所以我想文化部的資料庫開放程度是非常需要來提升的,所以這個原因是不是反映了我們內部資料開放的流程過於繁瑣呢?我們有沒有一個具體的計畫來提升我們的授權比例呢?是,因為文化部跟其他單位不太一樣,它每一個資料都有可能有著作權的,涉及到著作權,我想這一點未來我們要去克服它。"},{"start":338.444,"end":355.896,"text":"我想我可以理解但是我想這個因為我們的授權比例實在是太低了已經不到一半不到四分之一這實在是太誇張了我們是不是可以有進一步的簡化下載的流程授權流程呢來提升這些非商業利誘資料的可及性"},{"start":356.776,"end":373.428,"text":"是,我想回去檢討,然後給你寫個報告好,那不好意思喔,就是說我想再問最後一個問題喔就是說我們是不是可以將民間團體跟一些相關的教育組織一起來納進來,變成我們的合作對象那是不是也可以有一個更系統性的推廣方案呢?是,好"},{"start":374.489,"end":397.907,"text":"因為這個東西得來不易,我想盡量讓大家都可以用到對,我想鼓勵大家一起來使用,不然你花了那麼多錢建設這個資料庫最後就只放在那邊,可能是根本沒有人,太多人使用但是大概什麼時候可以給我一個說明跟報告呢?我想...一個月可以嗎?會不會太久?一個月,好,謝謝謝謝好,謝謝張曉琳委員接著我們請柯之恩委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1956,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時48分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部、文化部跟故宮。"],["主席：請衛福部邱部長，文化部李部長和故宮請準備。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。我想少子化現象已經是我們臺灣目前所面臨到的一個很重大的挑戰，我們的出生人口數已創下歷史新低，來到13.5萬人；而我們也邁入一個超高齡的危機中。針對前瞻基礎建設裡面所包含的建構零到二歲兒童社區公共托育計畫，本席想跟部長來討論，這個計畫希望可以營造一個友善的育兒空間，我們在本期的預算裡面也編列了4億7,244萬元要來推動社區公共化托育、托育資源中心和兒少安置機構等等。可是立法院預算中心的報告提到，截至113年6月底，在這部分的工作項目，有累積預算的達成率欠佳與績效指標有連年未達標的情形，應該要檢討改善；相關的進度，例如我們在布建托育資源中心只有66.72%，社區公共托育設施只有61.8%，補助各縣市增設兒少緊急與中長期安置機構的達成率更是低到46.54%。所以我們的預算執行力，效率真的不佳。對此社家署的說明是因為營建成本上漲導致多次流標，以及地方政府規劃變更與行政作業程序的繁瑣，已經函請行政院公共工程委員會協助改善這些招標文件。針對這些進度緩慢及績效指標未達標的情形，我們是不是還有更具體的一個改善空間呢？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，委員也有提到它的原因，執行落後等等是地方政府工程標案多次流標、規劃設計多次修正，有時候變成結合興建工程所需要的費用高等等，都影響到社區公共托育設施進度及經費執行未如預期，我們都有函請跟派員督導，並實地訪查，還請各方面的專家來輔導，所以我們也有盡力在幫忙他們完成這樣一個進度。"],["張委員雅琳：但是已連續兩年都沒有達標，是不是還可以有更積極的執行效率跟資源使用成效的方案呢？"],["邱部長泰源：由資料的呈現來看，其實是有成長，大概有76.42%都已經結案。"],["張委員雅琳：部長，因為少子化是國家面臨到的一個很大的挑戰，所以這個部分還是要有詳細而且精進的一些作法。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["張委員雅琳：另外我們之前雖然也有在討論彈性育嬰假跟家庭照顧假要有給薪，但我也希望我們是不是可以一起來思考，如何更支持女性在生產準備過程中的生產準備假，是不是可以跟勞動部一起來討論？因為如果他可以在生產前有更好的，不管是孕前的一些教育，泌乳的、哺乳的知識的話，都是更能夠幫助他成為一個好的家長，而且也比較可以降低產後憂鬱症，因為我們的產後憂鬱症是比OECD國家都要來得高，我覺得這個也希望部長跟勞動部可以一起來思考、一起來討論，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以，因為我完全同意，支持委員的論點。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。那我們下一位……"],["邱部長泰源：如果給她更好的照顧是會更好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好，我想請問一下，我們現在有一個叫做國家文化記憶庫2.0的特別預算案，是非常重要的一個計畫，可是我們的前瞻第4期執行是沒有如預期，我們的國家記憶庫及數位博物館應用只有到71.8%的執行率，你們是說因為系統防護、效能需求，需要重新調整研擬細部工項，所以才會延宕。但是我們也發現在國家文化記憶庫裡面，可供下載作非商業用途的授權比例也只有達到25.84%跟26.26%，其實比整體54.56%都還來得非常非常之低，所以我想文化部的資料庫開放程度是非常需要提升的，這個原因是不是反映了我們內部資料開放的流程過於繁瑣呢？我們有沒有一個具體的計畫來提升我們的授權比例呢？"],["李部長遠：是，因為文化部跟其他單位不太一樣，它每個資料都有可能涉及到著作權，我想這點未來我們要去克服它。"],["張委員雅琳：我可以理解，但是因為我們的授權比例實在是太低了，已經不到四分之一。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：這實在是太誇張了，我們是不是可以有進一步的簡化下載的流程、授權流程呢？來提升這些非商業利用資料的可及性。"],["李部長遠：是，我回去檢討，然後給你寫個報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那不好意思，我想再問最後一個問題。就是說我們是不是可以將民間團體跟一些相關的教育組織，一起納進來變成我們的合作對象，是不是也可以有一個更系統性的推廣方案呢？"],["李部長遠：是，好。因為這個東西得來不易，我想儘量讓大家都可以用到。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我想鼓勵大家一起來使用……，不然你花了那麼多錢建置這個資料庫……，最後就是放在那邊，根本沒有太多人使用。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候可以給我一個說明跟報告呢？"],["李部長遠：一個月可以嗎，會不會太久？"],["張委員雅琳：好，一個月，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，接著我們請柯志恩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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文化部還有嗎文化部有齁 在那邊要叫誰嗎 一起 沒有"},{"start":25.396,"end":30.88,"text":"委員好部長你好是部長在本期利用這個時間跟你討論因為我們前瞻文化部裡面有一個議程就是我們文化電廠的數位"},{"start":42.828,"end":55.672,"text":"因為在這幾天來,本席和你們的部長都講到自己文創園區裡面,自己市政府有需要你們的協助。在這個過程當中,部長你知不知道這件事,來回答一下。"},{"start":64.255,"end":75.602,"text":"我知道這件事,我還陪過委員去看過嘉義文創園區。是。在這我也感謝部長很低調去教嘉義市的文創園區,尤其你看到文創園區的對面是美術館,你有什麼感受嗎?跟我們自己管理的文創園區裡面。"},{"start":90.672,"end":91.172,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":120.718,"end":126.523,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議:「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案 »:"},{"start":135.145,"end":151.305,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":151.465,"end":171.613,"text":"第一,整個部長都沒有交接下去喔!因為不是跟你們現任的部長,我後面會跟你們說,包括跟市政府,也有這個訴求跟要求,結果到某個位置,你們都沒有什麼規約或什麼嗎?"},{"start":173.786,"end":174.567,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":204.266,"end":204.567,"text":"主席"},{"start":225.564,"end":225.844,"text":"市長,謝謝你。"},{"start":254.11,"end":254.31,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":271.894,"end":300.006,"text":"到現在都沒什麼事?打微軟報告,就是整個嘉義文創園區現在大部分都是歷史建築我才知道,我才知道歷史建築所以現在你做整個因應計畫的修改沒有啦,你簡單的告訴我,當時可以回答說,你要當時可以告訴我,自己市政府、文化、教育及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福"},{"start":301.377,"end":302.038,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":328.711,"end":350.826,"text":"市長,你說不用交給他們用,這樣對家庭是比較方便,你說這樣,我感覺稍微顛倒了。不是,不是,大委員報告就是說,因為在使用上面,現在單純上面就是說未來嘉峪文創園區做好之後,整個修復、再利用全部都取得建造、使用執照之後,"},{"start":351.607,"end":366.818,"text":"他基本上的應用大概就是文化部還有深美基金委還有嘉義市在地的所有的大家都可以一起來使用這個空間來啦因為市長柏廷華在這因為我這陣子的時間因為今天的聯席的時間很長啦在這本席要跟你討論的就是說你到目前為止一個月來"},{"start":376.425,"end":389.239,"text":"您要如何提供、如何做,可以讓自己去做典藏式的所在地對,最無期盼您的考慮是什麼,要給他們是什麼,要奉獻給他們是什麼,我覺得要有前進嘛。"},{"start":396.087,"end":398.268,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":416.516,"end":427.12,"text":"我們的建構、文創、園區、包括工業、市政府都不好本是在這要求一國會來,本是所有的區委、電廠、他們要愛的區委"},{"start":431.952,"end":446.55,"text":"來這裡跟一星期來在我的辦公室說要如何跟市政府協商好不好來補充好嗎沒問題好謝謝好謝謝王美惠委員接著請張雅蓮委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1922,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（12時40分）主席，請文化部部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：部長，你好。本席想利用這個時間跟你討論，因為在前瞻計畫裡面，文化部有一個文化典藏數位預算，這幾年來本席與歷任的部長都提到嘉義文創園區，嘉義市政府需要你們的協助，部長你知道這件事情嗎？請回答一下。"],["李部長遠：我知道這件事情，我還陪委員去看過嘉義文創園區。"],["王委員美惠：本席在這裡也感謝部長很低調地到嘉義市文創園區，當你看到文創園區對面的美術館，你有什麼感受？對我們自己管理的文創園區，目前你們有什麼要規劃嗎？請部長回答一下。"],["李部長遠：我感覺嘉義園區跟美術館那一區的環境，是非常非常具有文化的一個區域。"],["王委員美惠：有文化氣息的區域啦！"],["李部長遠：是的，很有文化氣息。"],["王委員美惠：本席在這裡要跟部長請教，文化部在前瞻裡面有數位典藏的預算，嘉義市政府也跟你們說，我們文創園區裡面的W棟可以來做典藏室，請問典藏室跟數位典藏室一樣嗎？請部長回答一下。"],["李部長遠：W棟現在還在修，還要取得執照，要做什麼用途還沒有完全決定，我們可以跟委員商量那一棟到底要怎麼樣……"],["王委員美惠：好幾屆的部長都沒有交接下去，不是只有現任的部長，我王美惠來跟你們說，包括嘉義市政府也有這個需求跟要求，但到目前為止，你們都沒有什麼規劃嗎？"],["李部長遠：有喔，我們有在討論。"],["王委員美惠：請部長利用這個時間講一下，因為我覺得嘉義市是一個文化古都，更何況我們的文創園區是在美術館的前面，我們都覺得很可惜，因為它沒有典藏室，要求我們可以做一個典藏室給它，可是等呀等，望呀望，一直到現在，你們都沒有來解決地方的問題。請部長回答一下。"],["李部長遠：我剛才也說過，現在是一邊在修復，一邊在等待使用執照；至於內部要怎麼做，文化部也一直開會討論，絕對不是委員所說的不管，絕對不是。"],["王委員美惠：我說的不是不管嘉義市政府，而是問你們有用心去思考，未來拿到使用執照的時候，你們是不是可以答應嘉義市政府的要求呢？"],["李部長遠：我現在請司長跟你報告一下我們的計畫。"],["王委員美惠：好。"],["江司長清松：感謝委員，有關嘉義文創園區……"],["王委員美惠：不用感謝我，身為嘉義市民的一分子，尤其可以來到這裡，我很感謝可以為嘉義市來做一些事情，不過到目前，你們所說的都還是無聲無息。"],["江司長清松：跟委員報告，整個嘉義文創園區大部分都是歷史建築……"],["王委員美惠：我知道啊！我怎麼會不知道是歷史建築！"],["江司長清松：所以現在是在做整個因應計畫的修復……"],["王委員美惠：你就簡單跟我說，什麼時候可以交給嘉義市政府文化局來做美術館的典藏室？這個比較重要啦！"],["江司長清松：日後W棟要怎麼使用，還要等到弄好以後，我們再跟嘉義市政府文化局討論看要怎麼處理；但是依照現行的法令，我們不太可能直接撥用給嘉義市政府，使用的部分是要大家一起來用，而不是交給嘉義市政府來用，因為這樣對整個嘉義市政府也比較公平。"],["王委員美惠：等一下，司長說不要交給他們，而是給你們用，這樣對嘉義市比較公平。我覺得你這樣說有點顛倒喔！"],["江司長清松：不是啦！未來嘉義文創園區整個修復再利用，全部都取得建造、使用執照之後，基本上它的運用，大概就是文化部還有生美基金，還有嘉義市在地的所有的，大家都可以一起來使用這個空間。"],["王委員美惠：司長、部長都在這裡，因為今天是聯席會議，所以質詢的時間比較短。本席在這裡要跟你們討論的，就是你們對W棟要怎麼規劃，可以讓嘉義市做典藏室的地方在哪裡，最起碼你們的考慮是什麼、要給他們的是什麼、要打契約的又是什麼，總要往前進，而不是在原地踏步，這樣不好啦！作為一個公家機關，對於要做的事情，就要負起責任，要有肩膀，不是今天講一講，結果要資料沒有資料，要你們的規劃也沒有規劃，這樣對整個文創園區，包括嘉義市政府都不好。本席在這裡要求將所有的典藏規劃，一個禮拜內到我的辦公室說明如何跟市政府協商，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒問題。"],["王委員美惠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員。接著請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 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請邀請部長請進一步 郭部長部長跟董事長一起台電董事長"},{"start":21.64,"end":40.301,"text":"委員好部長、董事長好綠電弊案掏空台灣綠電發展倒退路現在大家疑雲重重本期也非常希望一個國家應該是往正能量的方向去走但是疑雲這麼多我們還是要去理清楚執行到現在"},{"start":41.673,"end":61.719,"text":"部長,我們的現在所謂的淪為綠能的這個蟑螂啊,貪蟑王法,掏空台電的天堂。台南有神隱的,有力量的不利利益這麼多錢,最近又爆了彰化雲林。"},{"start":63.384,"end":85.209,"text":"你這個賺台電再生能源的賺購電費不法的利益有這麼多所以董事長你當時是擔任政次我相信當時你在執行政策的過程你應該是有參與過那你有沒有覺得你當時的執行政策方向怎麼會導致目前的弊案這麼多這個亂象為什麼"},{"start":88.574,"end":105.536,"text":"根委員報告就是我們不管是光電或是其他再生能源案有很多都是用地管理用地管理原因必然這麼多是用地管理其中有一個很大部分真的是用地的管理"},{"start":106.257,"end":106.437,"text":"那這該怎麼辦?"},{"start":106.437,"end":106.477,"text":"那這該怎麼辦?"},{"start":125.063,"end":125.564,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個因為我們行政審查分權"},{"start":142.978,"end":163.991,"text":"就是分層負責的權利能不能夠統一一個標準其實站在我們經濟部的立場其實也表達過說我們是不是能夠把這些相關不管是容許許可等等的一些規範儘量標準化那經濟部一直在朝著這個方向所以還沒有辦法達成"},{"start":165.152,"end":174.064,"text":"因為真的牽涉到非常多的總管也不同的 中央跟地方也不同你是執行者 也是決策者 也是現在的董事長你看到這麼多問題 部長"},{"start":176.092,"end":198.511,"text":"像這樣子難怪蟑螂四處讓我們台電整個天堂把我們挖空那所以本席要請教也就是說原因其實你們知道但是你們做不來也就在當時的決策橫向聯繫根本沒有辦法去做一個讓人民可以信賴的規範出來"},{"start":200.533,"end":225.736,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教關於電的囤購補助這個制度來退場減輕了利益的風險降低台電因為保證收購而承擔過度的壓力支持吧本席的立場支持吧這個我們可以納入考慮納入考慮是支持還不支持你總是要支持"},{"start":226.57,"end":243.78,"text":"支持才會納入考慮你的支持你不要笑我覺得這是很嚴肅的議題支持就是支持納入考慮就是納入考慮是支持支持我們繼續來討論本來我們很想綠能的發展但是是倒退路的"},{"start":244.64,"end":260.993,"text":"部長你注意聽喔我們原本光電的賺夠的補助制度我們為了是什麼為什麼要補助因為我們為了要加強再生燃油的發展快一點鼓勵對不對這個搭朝正能量的方向但是光電跳票2026年要達到23萬不可能"},{"start":265.055,"end":294.051,"text":"目前有可能目前多少是可能目前多少什麼是可能我們是2025年目前才完成13.6是2025年然後現在是我們延到2026年2026年是要20幾個月所以我們在討論因為你之前跳票了來你延後一年對不對2025延後到2026對不對25年還沒到啊對你延後一年嘛你政策宣示了嘛你跟我咬文絕字做什麼對不對那目前你完成多少"},{"start":295.971,"end":308.354,"text":"目前13.6啊那政府怎麼辦失職失能你把錢都花掉讓那個綠蟑螂剛才董事長講了綠蟑螂到處橫行那還有一個重點部長還有一個重點光電併網量不增反減為什麼為什麼照理講你那麼很有信心啊你應該要增加今年單一的年度併網量可不可以達成兩個幾個萬"},{"start":325.629,"end":327.71,"text":"現在外界告訴你今年的8月底是多少?1.26GW"},{"start":349.864,"end":378.883,"text":"去年是多少?2.7幾個萬那換句話說你越弄越糟糕電電網越來越少怎麼辦怎麼辦你花了大批的錢剛剛所說的不管能源局不管是董事長所說的都是他們碰到這麼多的瓶頸答案是結果論是答不到的所以部長你要面對這個問題你要面對這個問題啊你明明答不到啊你明明答不到你要怎麼樣做"},{"start":380.461,"end":392.852,"text":"你反而花大把的錢導致你的這個光電併網量是越少跟以前是比較起來是越少這個邏輯講不通嗎這個邏輯是講不通的啊所以我告訴你你的量就已經少了啊"},{"start":402.005,"end":402.946,"text":"人民不是提款機"},{"start":429.285,"end":436.911,"text":"財務的缺口你有答應說什麼時候要拿出台電的這個財務改善計畫輸出來因為我們現在要審預算了什麼時候沒有沒有請問部長因為部長在大院以及在這邊都有答覆"},{"start":447.517,"end":462.401,"text":"我講今年底嘛今年年底嘛對啊所以你要誠懇的回答就今年底因為現在要審預算了來本席請問近三年如果再加上這一次的追加明年度的公務預算1000億三年5000億我請問你早上回答說如果如果115年還有個1000億這是真的假的啊"},{"start":472.529,"end":496.445,"text":"聽到這個會讓我們嚇一跳耶是真的假的請我願意給你說明清楚委員我可以講嗎我請你講啊我報告委員我們是真的假的這個一千億兩千億或者是將來的一千億都是在彌補過去的因為補助民生電價而造成的這樣子的邏輯本席聽不下去本席請問針對本席的議題回答"},{"start":498.513,"end":507.52,"text":"也就是你的心中有沒有115年希望來要1000億來撥補有沒有你早上說了從你的口中說出來有沒有"},{"start":508.396,"end":526.508,"text":"你的心中有沒有預估115年你會不會再有1000億的來撥補會不會我現在沒有辦法判斷115年是不是要撥補你早上回答在這個都有會議記錄都有影音嘛你說如果還有1000億啊大家聽了下一條請你說明會不會你告訴我就好了會不會現在沒有辦法判斷現在沒有辦法判斷所以有可能"},{"start":539.176,"end":551.861,"text":"是不是?好,你不講,你雙手一攤。第二個,請問,如果這個預算,這個追加跟明年度的預算真的給再兩千億,三年五千億,請問明年會不會漲價?"},{"start":554.077,"end":576.418,"text":"長假是電價審議委員的工作啦對 所以還是沒有辦法回答所以最後就成如你信中所說的你現在沒有辦法預估你願不願意說115年不會再有1100億的這個波幅在你當任部長 會不會未來的事情我沒有辦法在這個地方回答那我們要問誰啊謝謝 歡迎時間到 梁委員"},{"start":577.339,"end":601.435,"text":"我們要問誰啊人民不是提款機耶我們現在台電4千多億的虧損我們問你們你們要拿出方針啊對不對我們會努力啦我們會努力我們真的會努力我們大家一起努力那個楊委員不是部長我們以實際討論的問題因為你早上說了"},{"start":606.838,"end":608.019,"text":"請你趕快把你的財務規劃拿出來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":972,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時50分）謝謝主席，請邀請部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長跟台電董事長。"],["主席：好，台電董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長、董事長好。綠電弊案掏空臺灣，綠電發展倒退嚕啦！現在這個疑雲重重，本席也非常希望一個國家應該是往正能量的方向去走，但是疑雲重重，我們還是要去釐清楚。執行到現在，部長，現在我們淪為所謂綠能蟑螂貪贓枉法、掏空台電的天堂，臺南有神隱的、有立暘的不法利益，這麼多錢！最近又爆了彰化、雲林的弊案，賺台電再生能源的躉購電費，不法的利益有這麼多！董事長，你當時是擔任政次，我相信當時在執行政策的過程，你應該是有參與過，那你有沒有覺得你當時的執行政策方向怎麼會導致目前的弊案這麼多？這個亂象的原因是什麼？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我們不管是光電或是其他再生能源案，有很多都是用地管理……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：用地管理？"],["曾董事長文生：土地要取得使用……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個弊案這麼多是因用地管理？"],["曾董事長文生：其中有一個很大部分真的是用地管理，它的審查就有非常多的層級，這個過程裡面，我這樣子講好了，包括連牽電線都有路權取得等等相關的問題，所以看到現在有很多的案子，有很多都是在那個細節的管理上面真的是出了滿多的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這該怎麼辦？真的出了很大的問題，也就是當初你們在做決策的時候，本席請問，當時在做決策的時候，您剛才所說的這一些問題，你們是沒有考慮到的？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，因為我們行政審查分權就是分層負責……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，請你告訴我，當時你是政次。"],["曾董事長文生：這些分層負責的權力能不能夠統一一個標準？其實，站在經濟部的立場，我們其實也表達過說，我們是不是能夠把這些相關的不管是容許許可等等的一些規範儘量標準化，那經濟部一直在朝著這個方向……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以還沒辦法達成？"],["曾董事長文生：因為真的牽涉到非常多的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個就亂成一章？"],["曾董事長文生：中央跟地方也不同的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是執行者，也是決策者，也是現在的董事長，你看到這麼多問題。部長，像這樣子，難怪蟑螂四處，讓我們的天堂、台電被挖空。所以本席要請教，也就是說原因其實你們是知道，但是你們做不來，也就是在當時的決策的橫向聯繫，根本沒有辦法去做一個讓人民可以信賴的規範出來。所以，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，讓光電的躉購補助制度來退場，減少利益風險，降低台電因為保證收購而承擔過度的壓力，支持吧？這是本席的立場，支持吧？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們可以納入考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：納入考慮是支持還不支持？你總是要……支持？"],["郭部長智輝：支持才會納入考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的支持……你不要笑，我覺得這個是很嚴肅的議題，支持就是支持，納入考慮就是納入考慮。是支持？好，那支持的話，我們繼續來討論。本來我們很想很想推綠能的發展，但現在是倒退嚕的。部長，你注意聽哦，我們原本光電躉購的補助制度為的是什麼，為什麼要補助？因為我們為了要加強再生能源的發展，讓它快一點，鼓勵性質，對不對？這是大家朝正能量的方向。但是光電跳票，2026年要達到20GW，不可能！"],["郭部長智輝：有可能。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前多少？"],["郭部長智輝：是可能的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前多少？什麼是可能？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是2025年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前才完成13.6……"],["郭部長智輝：本來是2025年，然後現在是延到2026年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2026年是要20GW，所以我們在討論，因為你之前跳票了，所以你延後1年，對不對？2025年延後到2026年，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：2025年還沒到啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你延後1年嘛！你政策宣示了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你跟我咬文嚼字做什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？目前你完成多少？"],["郭部長智輝：13.6。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前13.6啊！那政府怎麼辦？失職、失能，你把錢都花掉，讓那個綠電蟑螂……剛才董事長講了，綠電蟑螂到處橫行。部長，還有一個重點，光電併網量不增反減，為什麼？為什麼？照理講，你認為很有信心啊，你應該要增加，今年單一的年度併網量可不可以達成2個GW？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我是不是請他們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可不可以完成？來，請說明。"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，目前在施工的量有達到2GW，不過因為有一些地方政府的行政程序比較緩慢……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，跟曾董事長講的一樣，部長，你聽，所以你是達不到的。現在外界告訴你今年的8月底是多少？1.26GW。去年是多少？2.7GW，換句話說，你越弄越糟糕，併電網越來越少，怎麼辦？怎麼辦？你花了大筆的錢，剛剛所說的，不管能源局、不管是董事長所說的，都是他們碰到這麼多的瓶頸，結果論，答案是達不到的。所以部長你要面對這個問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要面對這個問題，你明明達不到啊！你明明達不到，你要怎麼做？你反而花大把的錢，導致你的光電併網量是越少，跟以前比較起來是越少，這個邏輯講不通啊！"],["郭部長智輝：併網以後才會花錢啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個邏輯是講不通的！"],["郭部長智輝：併網以後才會把這個錢花出去啊，所以不可能……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我告訴你，你的量就已經少了啊，對不對？你的量就已經少了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：他要做好併網之後才有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他就做不好嘛，就像剛剛講的，有那麼多問題嘛！現在發包總量可以，回收有嗎？回收有嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們發包沒有給他錢啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在碰到……"],["郭部長智輝：不是發包就給他錢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是，我們現在說量、我們現在說量，你現在碰到的這些問題，你要怎麼解決？這是第一個。","接下來，本席要請教，人民不是提款機，財務的缺口，你有答應說什麼時候要拿出台電的財務改善計畫書？因為我們現在要審預算了，什麼時候？沒有、沒有，我是請問部長，因為部長在大院以及在這邊都有答復，是什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：我講年底。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：今年年底嘛！對啊，所以你要誠懇地回答，就今年底，因為現在要審預算了。來，本席請問，近三年，如果再加上這一次的追加，明年度的公務預算1,000億，3年5,000億，我請問，你早上回答說，如果115年還有個1,000億，這是真的假的啊？聽到這個會讓我們嚇一跳耶，是真的假的？我願意讓你說明清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我可以講嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我請你講啊！是真的假的？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我報告委員，我們這個1,000億、2,000億，或者是將來的1,000億，都是在彌補過去因為補助民生電價而造成……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣子的邏輯，本席聽不下去！本席請問，針對本席的議題回答，也就是你的心中有沒有115年希望還要1,000億來撥補？有沒有？你早上說了啊，從你的口中說出來！有沒有？你的心中有沒有預估115年你會不會再有1,000億來撥補？會不會？"],["郭部長智輝：我現在沒有辦法判斷115年是不是要撥補……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你早上回答……這個都有會議紀錄，都有影音嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說如果……如果還有1,000億元，大家聽了嚇一跳。"],["郭部長智輝：千萬不要斷章取義。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，請你說明會不會，你告訴我就好了。"],["郭部長智輝：會不會，現在沒有辦法判斷。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在沒有辦法判斷，所以有可能是不是？好，你不講，你雙手一攤。","第二個，本席請問，如果這個預算……"],["主席：楊委員，發言時間到了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個追加的預算跟明年度的預算真的給，再2,000億，3年5,000億，請問明年會不會漲價？"],["郭部長智輝：漲價是電價審議委員的工作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以還是沒有辦法回答？最後，就誠如你心中所說的，你現在還沒有辦法預估。你願不願意說在你部長任內，115年不會再有1,000億的撥補？"],["郭部長智輝：未來的事情，我沒有辦法在這個地方回答。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那我們要問誰？"],["主席：謝謝，楊委員，時間到了。謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們要問誰啊？人民不是提款機耶！"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們現在台電四千多億的虧損，我們問你們，你們要拿出方針啊！對不對？"],["主席：好……"],["郭部長智輝：我們會努力啦！我們會努力，我們真的會努力！"],["主席：謝謝，我們大家一起努力。楊委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是，部長……"],["主席：楊委員，發言時間已經超過很多了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們以實際討論的問題，因為你早上說了……"],["主席：楊委員，發言時間已經超過很多了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果有這個1,000億，如果有1,000億，那大家聽了很恐怖……"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你一直用人民當提款機來撥補台電預算，你不改革台電的財務，只有一直撥補，這樣台電永遠都是虧損累累，對台電也不公平啊，對人民更不公平啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["郭部長智輝：委員你這樣的說法我們會回去……"],["主席：已經超出時間很多了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你趕快把你的財務規劃拿出來。"],["主席：好，我們尊重下一位委員的發言，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼都不回答？主席應該要告訴他要回答。"],["主席：我沒有辦法告訴他要回答，他不回答……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以，你要告訴他要回答。"],["主席：下次等你當主席的時候再說。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哪有都不回答的！"],["主席：我要確保下一位委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可以這樣，主席，你是主席，對不對？"],["主席：我公正不阿。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊，公正不阿，要請他回答啊，他什麼都不回答。"],["主席：不是，他有回答啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他沒有啊！"],["主席：他有回答，你沒有聽進去而已，他回答的不是你要的條件。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：……"],["主席：怎麼現在你在質詢我呢？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊，所以你不要講話啊！"],["主席：怎麼是質詢我……好，大家冷靜一下，電的問題事關國家能源轉型大家都很重視，我想不管是行政、立法部門我們大家一起努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不給方向是不行的。"],["主席：待會兒會後還可以跟部長請教。","來，下一位請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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也就是說被加害者的這個部隊有沒有確實去關心我知道受害者這個部隊是每天都至少有兩三個我們的不論是輔導長、連長或者是連輔導長都有過去關心每天都有到可是呢我們加害的這個空軍跟陸軍的部隊長官他被害者家屬跟我講說他認為"},{"start":383.248,"end":397.038,"text":"他們只要他們只做到所謂的徹子就把這個事情切得一乾二淨完全跟部隊沒有關係讓家屬覺得很不被尊重你至少來我們所謂的我們你們漢人說上個鄉吧我們那邊是"},{"start":399.102,"end":400.083,"text":"家屬感受不到國防部的"},{"start":416.744,"end":439.745,"text":"所謂的關心跟愛啦那當然陸戰隊這邊做得很好給予肯定可是我們陸軍跟空軍的就完全沒有聯絡也沒有去過家裡也沒有去過那個臨救前至少敬個禮都沒有那我不知道你們的是怕被連帶處分嗎還是怎麼樣不是這個再跟委員就說明一下"},{"start":440.766,"end":461.691,"text":"國防部基於三軍一家,我們不管陸海空軍都是同根同源,然後也都情同所屬。這個事情一發生之後,我們就責成海軍陸戰隊,是委員你現在所看到的海軍陸戰隊所有的同仁,代表三軍、代表國防部到家屬家裡面去做了相關有關於傷臟事宜或是一些輔敘事宜的協助。"},{"start":463.952,"end":490.251,"text":"家長還在受害者保護協會去那邊受諮詢也就是說我期望啦國防部能夠給予他們最大的協助好不好因為他們都是來自親韓的家庭又是原住民的部落離法院離哪裡都很遠大概都要一個小時以上因為我們稍微知道文樂很遠那我的意思就是說他們可能的知識水準也沒有很高所以要給予最大"},{"start":491.291,"end":511.097,"text":"這應該的應該這是國防部應該做的無論是就案情的釐清就事後的賠償這些部分你們都應該站在主導的角色而不是看了這件事情像如果因為這個事情牽連到我的官位就不保在那個原則之下永遠安慰不了人可以嗎可以可以市長謝謝你謝謝委員好謝謝陸委員繼續我們請廖偉祥委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1310,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（12時45分）主席，有請我們教育部人事處處長王崇斌。"],["主席：請教育部王處長，你都問不一樣的！"],["盧委員縣一：處長好。因為本席是原住民立委，所以針對我們原住民常看到的霸凌來請教，我想先請問處長，通常霸凌當中哪一種形式會最常見？"],["王處長崇斌：基本上，霸凌就是包括言語、包括行為……"],["盧委員縣一：好，我先考你一個問題，我後面這個族語名字怎麼唸？「GiGi」怎麼唸？"],["王處長崇斌：GiGi。"],["盧委員縣一：不是，它是唸成「ㄍ一 ㄍ一」，就像我們的職權選手吉力吉撈，現在在打球的時候，有很多人說發不出那個音，類似像嘲諷的意思，所以我們常常處在這樣一個狀況之下，現在有一個宜蘭縣的投訴，就是國小教練用言語霸凌我們的小朋友說「你的體力這麼差，你不會打球的話，你就去種菜」，經過考評會審議之後，教練被解聘了，結果沒有多久，他又被聘為代課老師，我想知道教育部對這方面有沒有一個限制？比如說他已經被解聘了，但沒有多久又變成代課老師，請問這樣一個機制是怎麼存在的？"],["王處長崇斌：跟委員報告，這個可能會涉及到當時他解聘的原因還有個案……"],["盧委員縣一：好，沒關係。然後屏東縣又發生這樣的事情，也是棒球教練，他就是不適任，還霸凌學生，而他的管制期間是一年，從2024年2月7號開始，所以應該是明年才可以再被續聘，結果他現在又被續聘為高中的棒球教練，這是現在屏東縣某個高中學生的家長來跟我投訴說的，這樣一個教練怎麼又會繼續當代課老師呢？所以在這個方面，我覺得你們應該通盤檢討，為何會常常發生在教練的身上。雖然我知道大部分的教練都很好，可是遇到這樣的教練，我們原住民學生常常會求訴無門。"],["王處長崇斌：關於這個部分，我想因為涉及到個案，所以必須要就個案的情況再去了解當時的……"],["盧委員縣一：可是我覺得這樣的情況很常見。","接下來第三個也是屏東縣的教練，他認為選手如果得到獎金的話，部分的獎金應該要給全隊、大家來分享，這當然沒有強調一定要有多少，可是情況越來越嚴重，有時候甚至要到三分之二，結果學生的家長來跟我們投訴說，怎麼會有這樣一個規定，而且教練知道以後，就向學生恐嚇說，如果你再這樣子的話，我把你踢出這個球隊，而且以後你也進不了任何一個球隊，也就是說，這個學生就受到老師的霸凌，還好他高中畢業考上國立大學，就離開了這個學校，可是這個老師還是留在原高中教書，但這樣的狀況並不是所謂的rare，而是非常常見，所以才跟你講說應該要有一套的措施，就是針對我們所有的教練。"],["王處長崇斌：就這個部分，其實運動教練的聘任跟不適任的處理，事實上體育署都有相關的規定，就個案的部分，怎麼樣在這個規定上面妥適處理，可能我們就是針對個案再去了解。"],["盧委員縣一：好，處長，我剛才一共提了三個，一個是在宜蘭，兩個是在屏東，如果想知道細節的話，請派國會聯絡人到我辦公室來談，好不好？"],["王處長崇斌：好，謝謝委員。"],["盧委員縣一：下一個我們請國防部常務次長楊基榮，次長好。"],["楊次長基榮：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：你看一下我今天穿的衣服，我們原住民軍人在10月12號的鬥毆事件中死亡，而這位軍人是在海軍陸戰隊服務。"],["楊次長基榮：是的，我們對這件事情感到非常遺憾。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我也知道，大家都很遺憾，不是只有你很遺憾，但我想知道目前的處理進度。"],["楊次長基榮：進度方面分幾方面跟委員報告，第一個，有關肇案的陸軍林姓士兵，還有空軍鄞姓士兵，我們分別都移送地檢署，目前林姓士兵遭到羈押，我們也依照他酒後失序，還有營外不當持有刀械這樣的成因來記他兩大過以及記過的處分；對於空軍鄞姓士兵，我們以涉足易肇成危安場所，還有營外鬥毆事件記了他大過一次跟大過兩次的處分之後，也在……"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝次長的說明，我大概都知道了，我已兩次請國會聯絡人到我辦公室來，我想知道加害者所屬部隊有沒有確實去關心，我知道受害者所屬部隊每天至少有兩、三個，不論是輔導長、連長都有過去關心，每天都有到，可是被害者家屬跟我說他們認為，加害者所屬空軍跟陸軍的部隊長官只做到所謂的撤職，就把這個事情切得一乾二淨，完全跟部隊沒有關係，讓家屬覺得很不被尊重。至少可以來做一下你們漢人說的上個香吧！我們那邊則是semubulu（慰問），你至少來靈前致意一下，雖然屏東有點遠，可是我在告別式之前還是有去了來義鄉文樂村。我的意思是，家屬感受不到國防部所謂的關心跟愛，當然陸戰隊這邊做得很好，我給予肯定，可是我們陸軍跟空軍就完全沒有聯絡，也沒有去過他們家裡，也沒有去過他的靈前，至少敬個禮，這些都沒有，我不知道你們是怕被連帶處分還是怎麼樣？"],["楊次長基榮：不是，再跟委員說明一下，國防部基於三軍一家，我們不管陸、海、空軍，他是同根同源，然後也都情同手足，本來這個事情一發生之後，我們就責成海軍陸戰隊，委員你現在所看到的海軍陸戰隊所有同仁代表三軍、代表國防部到被害者家裡就相關喪葬事宜，或是一些撫卹事宜提供協助。"],["盧委員縣一：今天早上他的家長還去受害者保護協會接受諮詢，所以我期望國防部能夠給予他們最大的協助，好不好？"],["楊次長基榮：是！沒問題！這是我們應該做的。"],["盧委員縣一：因為他們都是來自清寒的家庭，又是來自原住民的部落，離法院、離哪裡都很遠，大概都要花一個小時以上，召委應該也知道文樂村很遠，我的意思是，他們的知識水準可能也沒有很高，所以要給予最大的協助。"],["楊次長基榮：這是國防部應該做的。"],["盧委員縣一：無論是就案情的釐清、事後的賠償等等，這些部分你們都應該站在主導的角色，而不是看了這些事情後，只擔心這個事情是否會牽連到自己的官位，是否可能不保，在這樣一個原則之下，永遠都是安慰不了人，可以嗎？"],["楊次長基榮：可以！可以！"],["盧委員縣一：次長，謝謝你。"],["楊次長基榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員。","接續我們請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},{"id":"157176","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157176","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab2e0354e5c58da2b6399d0c714afe65c30f2771d698f81fe32aeb4f393fa6d6c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:01:17 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請交通部陳部長、桃機公司楊董事長桃機楊董"},{"start":20.723,"end":37.554,"text":"部長好、董事長好我們現在看到桃園機場在新冠疫情結束之後客運量單從今年1月到9月的旅客人數來看那1到9月旅客人數大概是3347萬那相較於去年同期的2493萬多出了854萬人次"},{"start":41.776,"end":61.625,"text":"另外在貨運的部分根據桃園機場園區的綱要計畫預期2040年的貨運量會達402萬公噸代表機場不管是旅客還是貨運量都是增加的趨勢為了有效輸運周邊的聯外交通必須建立完善請問董事長我們桃機目前聯外道路有哪一些"},{"start":64.532,"end":79.304,"text":"當然最外面是國道2號然後進來以後有台15線、台4線還有當地的未來目前正在進行的這個新國道的這個國1甲、國2甲那local的部分還不算在內"},{"start":80.084,"end":96.19,"text":"市長目前還有那個省道台四線嘛那南側會興建國道國二甲然後北側是國一甲那不管是國二甲還是國一甲那機場的聯外必須還是仰賴航站北路跟航站南路吧對那航站北路跟航站南路喔"},{"start":96.63,"end":111.087,"text":"往航廈必經有幾個地下道那同時通往神道台四線處也設有地下道那由於地下道的它的上方是機場的是飛機的滑行道那所以這個地下道是不可避免的設施請問部長董事長這樣的說法沒有錯吧"},{"start":113.128,"end":135.607,"text":"我們現在看我們2016年的時候6月3號桃園機場曾因為豪大雨的關係造成地下道淹水導致交通阻塞那也有鑑於全球氣候變遷常有瞬間的豪大雨的情形那我們就以極端的情況來說假如大量的雨水淹沒這三個地下道那造成道路中斷那部分旅客他還有那個"},{"start":137.408,"end":159.383,"text":"季節來做因素但還是會造成很多旅客的不便那面對這個問題部長還有董事長那桃機要來如何因應跟預防是委員所提的是如果三處都淹水的話目前的第三航廈線道計畫是有規劃的滋洪池在裡頭所以跟現在或是過去淹水的狀況會不一樣不過這個問題我們確實還會再更謹慎的再檢查一遍"},{"start":162.15,"end":180.687,"text":"是 董事長我們來看到下一張圖因為桃園機場它類似車站的導視月台那道路的規劃也因此受限那目前只有兩條聯外道路那未來旅客逐年增加然後還有預期的貨運量還有極端氣候的關係那桃機是不是有必要來研議第三條聯外道路的設置呢"},{"start":182.801,"end":202.482,"text":"這個部分目前是由部裡面這個道路單位主管機關包括國工局跟公務局在做協助那整個部裡面對第三航廈聯外交通的這個計畫是大家一起合作的目前計畫到哪裡是 報告委員其實他目前的第三的聯外道路應該都已經我讓我們總經理來報告"},{"start":204.693,"end":229.002,"text":"是我想跟委員補充報告第一個就是我們現有的主要高快速聯絡道路是在機場的西側那剛剛已經有提報就是我們目前在部裡面相關單位協助在東側的部分我們也會建立高快速系統那未來我們的航站北路跟航站南路都會配合這樣子的一個未來的系統去做連接是它的道路規劃跟設計出來了嗎"},{"start":230.562,"end":244.156,"text":"目前國際機場已經在細設當中現在明年就會進入發包階段了OK 好了 了解好 謝謝總經理那我們再來看到這邊有請我們桃園公司的蕭總經理桃園蕭總總經理 桃園"},{"start":254.09,"end":280.359,"text":"機場過去曾發現有電纜被撿還有馬桶不通還有淹水的很多很多問題那今天我們不討論過去的問題我們看今年發生的問題要就教我們總經理幾個問題那以下是今年桃園機場發生的重大爭議那就本席了解桃機北跑道在11月5號還有25號單數日凌晨關閉進行稅休那目前還沒有傳出有班機延誤的情況那請問部長還有總經理"},{"start":281.88,"end":307.735,"text":"那剩下三天的稅休有沒有信心不會再出現像3月的時候難跑到稅休的情況在3月的時候確實有發生過一個造成一些不順暢的狀況這個部分我們在這一次的稅休之前已經有做過檢討我們有特別召開會議那也拜託范總經理當這個整體的召集人所以目前為止看起來狀況都好那未來的三天我相信也應該不會出現所以部長可以掛保證"},{"start":310.677,"end":319.622,"text":"10月25號的時候有民眾跑到有門鎖的維修管道最後摔入出境大梯然後送醫不治請問總經理這個維修管道它有門鎖為什麼還會讓民眾闖入"},{"start":321.738,"end":341.972,"text":"我是不是請范總來回答好不好好先好請范總是報告委員我想上次這個不幸的事件基本上我們的檢討因為它是這個民眾利用我們維修的一個管道一個管制門利用這個維修廠商的人員不注意的我們直接說明為什麼"},{"start":342.372,"end":358.588,"text":"那這個部分就是維修人員的管制不夠確實所以我們也依照相關的合約來檢討同時也對於有關的管制做法再更嚴格那現在內部檢討到哪裡了那對合約商的懲罰是什麼已經做處置進行罰款"},{"start":359.693,"end":362.656,"text":"二航下B2的行李處理廠也發生火警,這是桃園的業務沒有錯吧?"},{"start":388.155,"end":407.055,"text":"報告委員那個火警的部分應該不屬於是桃警的業務那是因為是設施的關係那是由誰來做管理的我們負責的是那個清理的裝卸彩的業務那那個線路的管理的部分"},{"start":407.796,"end":407.976,"text":"主席"},{"start":425.138,"end":443.582,"text":"油管的部分我們都已經提早更換更早比保固的年限還更早已經挑案過了那有關於班機旅客等候時間過長的這個事件是因為最近的發生是在颱風期間發生的這個狀況那當天的颱風當天預報的這個"},{"start":451.444,"end":478.295,"text":"7月26日凌晨的班機預計只有2個半小時根據省紀部在112年度的審核報告指出桃機公司行李運送作業未增嚴謹導致行李卸載還有入境旅客等候行李時間過長那今年7月行李塞車的問題如你所說的是颱風的影響導致有密集的航班降落然後桃行人力只增加了13人是不是有能力不足的情況"},{"start":479.756,"end":499.976,"text":"報告委員當天當班的人數我們臨時有請總共有39位的員工延長工時加班來協助處理那實際上真的是班機集中的太遠了原來的預報是從12點到兩點半之前這邊請教我們桃機的董事長桃機社有ADIP系統吧"},{"start":501.457,"end":522.604,"text":"是 這個系統的資訊都有提供給相關單位都有提供給相關單位那怎麼還會發生那樣的問題但是因為這一次的那個是颱風過程颱風過程它最後在復甦的階段航機的這個原來的艦巨石時間都跑掉了那所以淘金公司這邊在地形業務的部分在配合上面它的超前部署比較困難所以依照總經理的說法不是人力不足的關係是數據不夠準確了"},{"start":523.404,"end":550.499,"text":"他有可能是在那個短時間之內尤其是在深夜或者是在這種離峰階段的人力那這一次的經驗之後呢我們在整個房台或者是在這種特殊情況的過程會邀請所有的相關單位尤其是地勤作業的人員包括他們的主管會先做超檢部署去做預料預判那這個問題從現在從上一次的事件發生之後已經開始做了改善所以這個問題以後發生的機率會比較少但是人力的問題依然還是一個重點"},{"start":551.019,"end":554.371,"text":"是也請還是要提升日後的整體效能OK好以上謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":860,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時1分）謝謝主席。請交通部陳部長和桃機公司楊董事長。"],["主席：請陳部長、桃機楊董。"],["邱委員若華：部長好、董事長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["楊董事長偉甫：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：我們先看桃園機場在新冠疫情結束之後的客運量，單從今年1月到9月的旅客人數來看，1到9月的旅客人次大約是3,347萬，相較於去年同期的2,493萬多出了854萬人次。另外，在貨運部分，根據桃園機場園區的綱要計畫，預期2040年的貨運量會達402萬公噸，代表機場不管是旅客還是貨運量都是增加的趨勢。為了有效疏運，周邊聯外交通必須建立完善，請問董事長，目前桃機聯外道路有哪一些？"],["楊董事長偉甫：當然最外面是國道二號，進來以後，有臺15線、臺4線，還有當地目前正在進行的新國道，分別是國一甲和國二甲。坑口部分還不算在內。"],["邱委員若華：是，目前有省道臺4線嘛！南側還會興建國二甲、北側是國一甲？"],["陳部長世凱：國一甲，對。"],["邱委員若華：不管是國二甲還是國一甲，機場聯外還是必須仰賴航站北路跟航站南路吧？那航站北路跟航站南路往航廈必經的有幾個地下道，同時，通往省道臺4線處也設有地下道。由於地下道上方是機場的飛機滑行道，所以地下道是不可避免的設施，請問部長、董事長，這樣的說法沒有錯吧？"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["邱委員若華：但我們現在來看，在2016年6月3日，桃園機場曾經因為豪大雨的關係造成地下道淹水，導致交通阻塞，也有鑑於全球氣候變遷，常有瞬間豪大雨的情形。我們就以極端的情況來說，假如大量雨水淹沒這3處地下道、造成道路中斷，雖然部分旅客還有機捷運輸，但還是會造成很多旅客的不便。面對這個問題，部長、董事長，桃機要如何因應預防？"],["陳部長世凱：委員所提的是如果3處都淹水的話？"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["楊董事長偉甫：目前的第三航廈建造計畫規劃了滯洪池在裡頭，所以跟現在或過去會淹水的狀況不一樣。不過對於這個問題，我們確實還會更謹慎、再檢查一遍。"],["邱委員若華：是。董事長，我們來看下一張圖。桃園機場採類似車站的島式月臺，道路的規劃也因此受限，目前只有兩條聯外道路。那未來隨著旅客逐年增加、預期貨運量，還有極端氣候的關係，桃機是不是有必要研議第三條聯外道路的設置呢？"],["楊董事長偉甫：這部分目前是由部裡的道路單位主管機關，包括國公局跟公路局協助，整個部裡對於第三航廈的聯外交通計畫是大家一起合作的。"],["邱委員若華：目前計畫到哪裡了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實目前針對第三條聯外道路應該都已經……"],["楊董事長偉甫：我讓我們總經理來報告好了。"],["邱委員若華：好。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["范總經理孝倫：我跟委員補充報告。第一，現有主要高快速聯絡道路是在機場的西側，剛剛已經提到，經過部裡相關單位協助，在東側也會建立高快速系統，未來航站北路跟航站南路都會配合這樣的系統作連接。"],["邱委員若華：請問道路規劃和設計出來了嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：目前國一甲已經在細設當中，明年就會進入發包階段了。"],["邱委員若華：OK，了解，謝謝總經理。","有請桃勤公司蕭總經理。"],["主席：請桃勤蕭總。"],["邱委員若華：總經理，桃園機場過去曾發現電纜被剪、馬桶不通，還有淹水等很多問題，今天我們不討論過去的問題，就以今年發生的狀況就教總經理幾個問題。以下是今年桃園機場發生的重大爭議，就本席了解，桃機北跑道在11月5號還有25號等單數日凌晨關閉、進行歲修，目前還沒傳出班機延誤的情況。請問部長還有總經理，剩下3天歲修，有沒有信心不會再出現像3月的時候南跑道歲修的情況？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，3月的時候確實發生一起事件，造成一些不順暢的狀況，針對這部分，我們在這次歲修之前已經做過檢討，除了特別召開會議，也拜託范總經理當整體的召集人啦！所以目前為止，看起來狀況都好，在未來的3天，我相信也應該不會出現任何問題。"],["邱委員若華：所以部長可以掛保證？"],["陳部長世凱：可以、可以、可以，沒有問題。"],["邱委員若華：OK。","那我要就教總經理幾個問題。10月25日有民眾跑到有門鎖的維修管道，結果摔落出境大廳，送醫不治。請問總經理，維修管道有門鎖，為什麼還會讓民眾闖入啊？"],["陳部長世凱：我請范總回答好不好？"],["邱委員若華：好，請范總。"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，關於上次這起不幸事件，就我們的檢討，是民眾利用維修管道一處管制門、維修廠商人員不注意的時候……"],["邱委員若華：可不可以直接說明為什麼？"],["范總經理孝倫：這部分就是維修人員的管制不夠確實，所以我們依照相關合約檢討，同時有關管制作法也更嚴格。"],["邱委員若華：現在內部檢討到哪裡了？合約上的懲罰是什麼？"],["范總經理孝倫：已經作處置、進行罰款。"],["邱委員若華：罰款？"],["范總經理孝倫：是。"],["邱委員若華：所以報告已經出來了？"],["范總經理孝倫：是。"],["邱委員若華：那麼請再提供本席相關資料。"],["范總經理孝倫：好。"],["邱委員若華：接下來請問蕭總經理，桃勤公司有接駁車把不同航班旅客放在同一班機上、航機拖車在拖行航機過程中出現漏油情況。還有行李塞車，讓民眾等了兩個半小時，二航廈B2的行李處理場也發生火警，這些是桃勤的業務，沒有錯吧？"],["蕭總經理國智：報告委員，火警部分應該不屬於桃勤的業務，因為是設施的關係。"],["邱委員若華：那是由誰管理呢？"],["蕭總經理國智：我們負責的是行李的裝卸載業務，線路的管理應該屬於桃機的業務，不屬於桃勤的業務。機具漏油的部分，我們已經針對相類似機具作完整的檢查，油管部分我們也提早更換，已經比保護年限更早更換了。關於班機旅客等候時間過長，最近的事件是在颱風期間發生的狀況，根據颱風當天的預報，7月21日凌晨的班機預計只有兩個半小時……"],["邱委員若華：審計部112年度的審核報告指出，桃機公司行李運送作業未臻嚴謹，導致行李卸載還有入境旅客等候行李時間過長。那今年7月行李塞車的問題，據您所說是因為颱風的影響，導致有密集航班降落，但桃勤人力只增加了13人，是不是仍有人力不足的情況？"],["蕭總經理國智：報告委員，關於當天當班人數，我們臨時請了總計39位員工延長工時、加班協助處理。實際上真的是班機集中得太嚴重了，原本的預報是從12點到2點半之間……"],["邱委員若華：請教桃機公司董事長，桃機設有ADIP系統吧？"],["楊董事長偉甫：是，這個系統的資訊都有提供給相關單位，不過……"],["邱委員若華：既然都有提供給相關單位，那怎麼還會發生這樣的問題？"],["楊董事長偉甫：因為以這次颱風的過程，在最後恢復階段，航機原本的間距時間都跑掉了，所以桃勤公司在地勤業務配合上的超前部署比較困難。"],["邱委員若華：所以依照總經理的說法，不是人力不足的關係，而是數據不夠正確囉？"],["楊董事長偉甫：有可能是因為在短時間之內、尤其是深夜或離峰階段人力受限。有這次經驗之後，我們在防颱或面對這種特殊情況的過程，會邀請所有相關單位、尤其是地勤作業人員，包括他們的主管，去超前部署、作預判。在上次事件發生之後，已經開始作改善，所以這個問題以後發生的機率會比較少，但人力問題依然是重點。"],["邱委員若華：是，日後還是要提升整體效能。好，以上，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（邱委員若華代）：下一位登記發言的委員是魯明哲委員，有請魯明哲召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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?外面已經有狗了,外面還有人兩套阿全世界有哪個機場這樣搞的?有哪一個機場?部長?局長?沒有沒關係,你隨便講一個國家美國有這樣嗎?應該台灣比較嚴格全世界只有台灣欸"},{"start":507.321,"end":530.001,"text":"全世界只有台灣這樣子搞的,可以這樣搞嗎?應該要更快速更簡化,讓旅客這樣排隊不好那你在外面再搞一套好了,那孫章機場也要搞啊,高雄小港機場也要搞啊,都要弄啊,不只你自己馬頭我們台北港也要弄啊,台北港也要像這樣搞啊,你們該不該?"},{"start":531.837,"end":559.318,"text":"你是交通部的主政單位,不可以這樣搞的所以我主張房檢局所有的預算全部刪掉莊委,你要支持個人的主張那我需要去其他委員會刪其他委員會刪?沒有,我向黨團已經提出報告了我向黨團提出報告了,我們總統要支持我的決定"},{"start":560.731,"end":576.823,"text":"我們董事長這是我的決定我想民進黨在座委員還沒有民進黨委員看得下去嗎?你們都沒有人投訴這民意院,這是民意院你知道嗎?賴總統聽得到的話你聽聽一聽賴總統請賴總統聽一聽,可以這樣搞嗎?"},{"start":584.855,"end":601.001,"text":"我們國員同胞罵死了,觀光客也罵死了全世界進出尤其入境沒有這樣的做法的疫情已經過去了嘛疫情的時候我們配合政府對不對大家沒有話講戴口罩李潔"},{"start":603.172,"end":619.188,"text":"這個檢疫規定防疫規定我們都遵守是不是量什麼發燒什麼的我們都遵守連中國大陸啊你們講那麼專制的地方沒有啊也沒這樣搞啊何局長全世界有沒有哪一個國家這樣子搞法的"},{"start":620.158,"end":647.318,"text":"這比較特別,因為他是檢查豬肉的部分所以每個機場都一樣,因為是防檢局整個政策我強烈的提出質疑關山勾結真的,我沒有調查權,有調查權我一定查他我跟你講我怎麼跟農委長以後馬上廠商就跑到我辦公室來跟我解說這個事情我覺得很奇怪,不是關山勾結是什麼"},{"start":649.622,"end":672.787,"text":"這是民怨,賴總統希望你聽得到行政院組委員長希望你也聽得到,部長今天在這個地方我希望你向上級長官報告一下,好不好?好召委,你要支持我的主張跟決定,謝謝防疫嘛,OK什麼防疫?不是防疫防檢局防檢局好不好,我要把這預算全部刪掉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時49分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳委員雪生：還有華航謝董事長。"],["主席：請華航謝董事長。"],["陳委員雪生：請民航局何局長。"],["主席：請何局長。"],["陳委員雪生：機場公司楊董也一起好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：好，請機場公司楊董事長。"],["陳委員雪生：部長。"],["陳部長世凱：是，委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：最近華信有滿好的表現喔！我首先要說謝謝啦！昨天我有給謝董事長打個電話，他確定了，如果油料問題解決、落地費本來就不要嘛！那就請何局長看看其他相關費用，能夠減免的減免一點。為什麼呢？因為謝董事長有勇氣回答我這個問題啊！那表示什麼？表示希望虧損能夠降到最少啦！是不是虧損，我們不知道，包機完以後，可能會有虧損、可能會有盈餘，很難說，但我們已經致電國防部，希望國防部的軍人，他們有八百多個人嘛！如果1/3休假，起碼就有三百多個人啦！每個禮拜可以飛高雄往返，對於軍人子弟也是福音，所以謝謝華航謝董事長。今天在這邊先讓你講個話好不好？華信董事長，你講個話，好不好？"],["謝董事長世謙：還是請華信來講？"],["陳委員雪生：好，華信來。"],["高董事長星潢：我想提供交通運輸是我們航空公司的天職啦！所以假如能夠克服困難的話，我們一定會儘量促成。謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：好啦！謝謝華信董事長。","何局長，你要感謝他們協助啊！","當然你出的力量很大，因為何局長為了這件事情幾天睡不著覺，還打電話給我說：「雪生大哥，拜託一下，這件事情怎麼辦？」他有非常大的壓力，但是現在謝董跟華信這邊也解決問題了啦！"],["何局長淑萍：如果航空公司願意提供運能來這條線服務，我們當然是樂觀其成。至於剛剛委員提到的減免部分，其實在南竿機場就是減免，就是免了啦！"],["陳委員雪生：能夠減免就多減免嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：對。至於其他相關費用，我們再來檢視一下。"],["陳委員雪生：其實這也算首航啦！如果實在是虧損的話，謝董，我會協助你們向民航局要要看適當的錢，好不好？","部長，我看你今天面帶笑容啊！好像氣氛就比較緩和一點。"],["陳部長世凱：聽委員說到好消息，我當然就面帶笑容。"],["陳委員雪生：問題是你們也要努力啊！何局長是非常努力的啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是、是。"],["陳委員雪生：他非常兢兢業業，民航局全體同仁在他領導之下當然是OK的啦！我知道，他們非常努力。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：謝董請回。何局長這邊當然沒話講。至於交通部，部長，其實你也很幸福、很幸運，你底下的這些局，每個人能力都非常強。你看民航局，除了何局長之外，方副局長也非常優秀啊！"],["陳部長世凱：有。"],["陳委員雪生：有機會你也要提攜一下。"],["陳部長世凱：您有跟我提過。"],["陳委員雪生：我沒有那個權力啊！因為幹了非常久，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：接下來要提什麼呢？機場公司，楊董，您的表現也非常好，為了機場公司、尤其是第三航廈，你非常辛苦、非常努力啊！所以下面同仁的向心力也非常地強。但是現在有個問題，你看這張圖片、這個場景，部長、何局長。"],["陳部長世凱：是，檢疫過程。"],["陳委員雪生：還有楊董，你們看一下這些圖片。這是入境，不是出境喔！出境檢查很嚴格，入境檢查更嚴格！出去以後還有狗、有防疫狗啊！總共兩道關卡。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：再來，這是入境檢查。我給各位看一下今年暑假的場景，這是什麼地方？部長，你看看這是什麼地方。"],["陳部長世凱：入境的地方嘛！"],["陳委員雪生：入境喔？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：在全世界，任你到每個機場，有沒有看到這樣的場景？全世界！全世界！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：連中國大陸在內，入境有沒有這樣的場景？您看過沒有？奇蹟！這是奇蹟啊！排隊排多久你知道嗎？國人、觀光客從國外回來，原本興高采烈、很興奮，因為到家了，但是到家以後呢？對不起喔！沒那麼快，要排隊！半個鐘頭以上！半個鐘頭以上！我問過農委會，因為那是農委會的權責啦！農委會說現在還有百分之多少等等，我就問抓到幾個嘛！牛肉、豬肉、狗肉都算，到底抓到幾個嘛！沒有啊！很少、很少，微乎其微、個位數、十幾位啦！外面有狗了啊！而且查到豬肉竟然要罰10萬元、20萬元、100萬元耶！在這麼嚴格的處分之下，還有人敢帶進來嗎？莫非他是神經病啊？是不小心帶進來的啦！不會故意搞這種事。那有必要這樣玩嗎？是不是？我找過民航局、找過農委會，結果廠商馬上就來找我啦！我跟你講，這是官商勾結啊！這是官商勾結啊！絕對是官商勾結！在座各位，你們同意嗎？你們回國的時候是不是也這樣排隊？你們同意不同意？你們同意不同意？同意的請舉手，同意這樣做的請舉手。你看沒半個人舉手啊！在場委員也好、包含召委，也包含交通部所屬單位，沒有人舉手啊！部長，你看得下去嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：要以服務為導向嘛！服務卻搞成這樣。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們也希望速度可以快一點。"],["陳委員雪生：不是快一點啊！這個快不得！沒得快！"],["陳部長世凱：不要讓大家排隊……"],["陳委員雪生：沒得快，一定是半個鐘頭以上。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：這家公司也在裡面動用不少人員，那我請問部長、何局長，在我國各國際港口、機場中，除了桃園機場這樣做，還有哪個機場這樣做？請你告訴我。要是有破口的話，松山也有破口了啊！高雄也有破口啦！你們也這樣搞好了。"],["何局長淑萍：其實在每一個機場，防檢局都採同樣的檢疫方式，只是桃園機場這邊因為旅客比較多，又有入境長廊的問題，所以可能排隊人數會比較多。"],["陳委員雪生：我幫你一個忙好不好？我把防檢局這方面的預算全部砍掉，個人主張砍掉所有人事費、服務費或什麼費！有必要這樣搞嗎？防疫……疫情都已經過去多少年啦？否則你們來應該戴口罩啊！統統戴口罩啊！是不是？我這裡就可以傳染過去耶！所以要戴口罩嘛！但你們口罩都沒戴，連醫院現在都解除了，我們的機場這是在搞什麼東西啊？當然不是你們交通部管的啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是、是、是，是防檢局啦！但是檢查過程其實可以更優化，看看可不可以速度加快。"],["陳委員雪生：什麼過程！外面已經有狗了、還有人，總共有兩套啊！全世界有哪個機場這樣搞的？有哪個機場，部長？"],["陳部長世凱：有些國家是用狗去檢查。"],["陳委員雪生：沒關係，你隨便講出一個國家！你隨便講一個國家。美國有這樣嗎？英國呢？"],["陳部長世凱：應該是臺灣比較嚴格啦！"],["陳委員雪生：全球只有臺灣！全世界只有臺灣這樣搞的！全世界只有臺灣這樣搞的！可以這樣搞嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：應該更快速、更簡化啦！讓旅客這樣排隊不好。"],["陳委員雪生：不是快速的問題。既然要用兩套，那在外面再搞一套好了嘛！松山機場也要搞啊！高雄小港機場也要搞啊！都要弄啊！"],["陳部長世凱：各機場都有啦！"],["陳委員雪生：不只如此，還有碼頭，臺北港也要弄啊！臺北港也要像這樣搞啊！你們幹不幹？你是交通部、主政單位，不可以這樣搞的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，當然、當然。"],["陳委員雪生：所以我主張將防檢局所有預算全部刪掉。召委！召委！你要支持個人的主張喔！"],["主席：那我要去其他委員會刪耶！"],["陳委員雪生：去其他委員會刪？不，我已經向黨團提出報告了。"],["主席：喔！好。"],["陳委員雪生：我向黨團提出報告了，我們總召支持我的決定。我們總召支持我的決定。我想民進黨……我想在座委員還沒有表示，但民進黨委員看得下去嗎？你們都沒有接到人民投訴啊？這是民怨！這是民怨啊！你們知道嗎？這是民怨啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：賴總統要是聽得到的話，你聽一聽，賴總統！請賴總統聽一聽，可以這樣搞嗎？國人同胞罵死了，觀光客也罵死了！全世界進出、尤其是入境，沒有採這樣的做法的，沒有這樣做法的！疫情已經過去了嘛！發生疫情的時候，我們配合政府，對不對？大家沒有話講，對於戴口罩、禮節、檢疫規定、防疫規定，我們都遵守，是不是？量溫度看看有沒有發燒什麼的，我們都遵守，但現在連中國大陸、被你們講那麼專制的地方也沒有啊！也沒這樣搞啊！何局長，全世界有沒有哪個國家有這樣的搞法？"],["何局長淑萍：這比較特別啦！"],["陳委員雪生：特別？臺灣很特別喔？"],["何局長淑萍：因為它是要檢查豬肉的部分啦！"],["陳委員雪生：臺灣人壽命多少？是活兩百歲啊？"],["何局長淑萍：每個機場都一樣，因為是防檢局整個政策……"],["陳委員雪生：我強烈地提出質疑：官商勾結！真的。我是沒有調查權，若有調查權，我一定查它，我跟你講。為什麼我跟農委會講了以後，馬上就有廠商跑到我辦公室來向我解說這件事情？我覺得很奇怪！這不是官商勾結是什麼？這是民怨！賴總統，希望你聽得到。行政院卓院長，希望你也聽得到。部長今天在這個地方，我希望你向上級長官報告一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：召委，你要支持我的主張跟決定！謝謝。"],["主席：防疫嘛！OK。"],["陳委員雪生：什麼防疫！不是防疫！這個東西……"],["主席：防檢局、防檢局。"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？我要把這項預算全部刪掉。謝謝。"],[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不是而是說如果我們今天事實都要掩蓋的話我們怎麼對症下藥啊而且我真的不太懂你們那麼在意這個事情幹什麼習近平提到賴清德總統然後說賴清德的態度那你就反駁他就好啦"},{"start":303.885,"end":309.847,"text":"反駁習近平啊不是我們現在賴清德總統已經主張中華民國113年了他已經是中華民國派了習近平不要亂講話反駁他就好了嘛你去講說他沒說幹嘛你又不是他所以你們然後就把他搞成是認知作戰我真不懂欸這樣的一個操作的用意意義在哪裡你看美國的報導就有嘛你一直去否認這個事情"},{"start":329.937,"end":340.255,"text":"我們是要突顯我們是要突顯你務實一點好不好務實一點啦每天在那邊講認知作戰認知作戰台灣人民都聽到都沒有都覺得到底在幹什麼啊再請教一下"},{"start":344.806,"end":363.241,"text":"昨天我們的行政院長那個卓榮泰講說不能講以美論因為所謂的理念相近的國家要互相信賴沒有人要說以美論但是我們不能夠評估一下川普上任之後對台灣可能造成衝擊嗎這算不算以美論這是不是以美論市長你覺得是以美論嗎"},{"start":365.317,"end":381.945,"text":"這個是很 評估嘛 評估嘛 對嘛 所以為什麼把所有的評估都要把它打成是以美論呢 我也不懂啊 現在川普 我問一下次長 欸今天經濟部也有人來嘛 請教一下川普上任之後有沒有可能提高台灣的 台灣的關稅 有沒有可能 有沒有可能有沒有可能 外交部次長你可以回答啊 因為你們 你們對美 你們也有對美關係啊 你覺得有沒有可能"},{"start":391.923,"end":400.829,"text":"按照特朗普競選的承諾這個是有可能有可能嘛那經濟部次長程度多少程度多少那你們覺得程度多少"},{"start":402.352,"end":426.292,"text":"有沒有可能很高有沒有可能我跟委員報告一下如果關稅太高的他其實傷害了他本國的通貨膨脹也會發生所以這一點所以你覺得你的評估是不會很高我不是這樣講他如果調得太高他也會傷到自己是但是但是他還是會調高對我們也會有影響那這算不算以美論算不算市長覺得算以美論嗎"},{"start":431.909,"end":448.706,"text":"我們只是很務實的討論國家未來可能遇到的困境嘛這算以美論嗎不是吧不是說只要討論美國對我們可能造成傷害都是以美論吧那請教一下我們台積電有沒有可能台積電A16技術製程會在美國有沒有可能你們有評估過嗎經營部"},{"start":454.81,"end":455.491,"text":"你覺得這個東西沒有影響?"},{"start":481.131,"end":497.006,"text":"他要量產要比台灣晚3年而且他研發中心在台灣所以我們認為台灣的技術會維持領先的地位所以次長你的評估是說雖然A16技術製程有可能會在美國但是因為我們會比他早量產3年所以不會受到影響"},{"start":498.118,"end":520.032,"text":"這是進一步的評估嗎會正面的影響還會有正面的影響所以美國所以台積電最好那種高先進的製程就多去一點還會有正面的影響不是這第一個台積電的商業決策而且台積電做過台積電本身也做過整密的評估我們以台灣的利益為最高指導原則台積電做過評估為什麼張忠謀在2022年會說在美國投資是貴且浪費"},{"start":523.003,"end":546.605,"text":"張創辦人的這個解釋我沒有辦法替他回答但你講的你說台積電做過評估但他們創辦人公開講說在美投資貴且浪費有一個高盛高盛大家知道嗎亞太地區首期經濟學家他說除了北京之外台灣、韓國、越南都可能會籠罩在美國提高我們關稅的陰影當中這是高盛講的"},{"start":548.114,"end":576.645,"text":"所以事實上就是會嘛事實上是全世界都會嘛所以要做好因應嘛不是說大家討論因應之道就是以美論嘛最後我問外交部次長一個問題請問一下現在慶賀團決定派誰代表了嗎還沒有請問一下四年前那時候是四年前八年前當時是什麼時間點會決定派誰你在外交部服務很長一段時間嘛可是這個你要確實沒關係我問一下四年前那時候是什麼決定的"},{"start":578.299,"end":584.764,"text":"我必須看我四年前八年前我們是什麼時間我沒有辦法馬上回答您這個問題再確認一下我沒有辦法馬上回答那會不會是立法院長"},{"start":608.226,"end":608.246,"text":"韓國瑜"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時7分）麻煩請外交部政務次長。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["田次長中光：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。當然我們都不希望對岸在國際上面打壓我們的外交空間，但是我覺得我們外交部、政府也不能夠事事都在掩飾，因為只有面對真相、面對事實，才能夠對症下藥，找到我們的外交空間，維持兩岸和平。我想請教一下，外交部對於新加坡公開講說，確實他們有主張反對臺灣臺獨這個事情，外交部現在看法是怎樣？"],["田次長中光：我們對這個案子做一個詳細的比較，中國所發出來的訊息是說新加坡是支持一個中國的原則，那麼我們為了這個，我們跟新加坡去了解，新加坡說他們是支持一個中國的政策，這兩個有明顯的不同。"],["葉委員元之：所以沒有講到黃循財反對臺獨這件事情？因為今天媒體都是這樣報導。"],["田次長中光：他是反對臺獨。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！所以意思是什麼，你們非常急著……","不是，次長，等一下、等一下！你們非常急著要去幫人家澄清嘛！所以讓人家公開地再一次地呼籲反對臺獨這件事情，我不太知道外交部為什麼要這麼急著做這件事情，你們的動機是什麼？"],["田次長中光：報告委員，我們不要澄清這個事情。"],["葉委員元之：你們就是澄清嘛！所以今天媒體都是說外交部被打臉嘛！"],["田次長中光：我們是找出來中國用各種的方法，把不當的言詞塞在別人的嘴巴裡。"],["葉委員元之：實際上，我今天看媒體的報導是講新加坡再次表示反對臺獨，外交部也理解，所以這個事情已經被操作成一個負面的事情了，外交部你們在做這種事情有這麼粗糙，我以為外交部的人員都是經歷了很豐厚的外交訓練，怎麼會這麼粗糙，讓這樣的話題本來一天就過去了，然後最後好像搞得裡外不是人。","然後再來，習近平到底在拜習會的時候有沒有提到賴清德這3個字？我們的政府高層都說沒有嘛！當時國安局局長講他去比對了白宮的新聞稿，說完全沒有講到賴清德，我問一下次長，請問一下白宮的新聞稿是逐字稿嗎？是拜習會的逐字稿嗎？"],["田次長中光：我們對這個國安單位所提出來的解釋……"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，我就問你嘛！白宮的新聞稿是不是拜習會談話的逐字稿，是不是？是新聞稿還是逐字稿？你們外交部都不會去看人家的新聞稿？"],["田次長中光：北美司回答一下好嗎？"],["王司長良玉：兩邊在會後發的新聞聲明我們都有看。"],["葉委員元之：我的問題很簡單，請問一下白宮的新聞稿是不是拜習會的逐字稿？"],["王司長良玉：並不是。"],["葉委員元之：並不是逐字稿嘛！請教一下，所以我們的國安局長怎麼可以根據不是逐字稿的新聞稿――因為新聞稿只有摘錄他們講話的部分嘛――就可以直接去講習近平在拜習會就是沒有談到賴清德，為什麼可以這樣推論？"],["王司長良玉：這是因為過去這一段時間，我們看到兩邊對話之後雙方發出來的新聞稿。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！但是不是逐字稿嘛！"],["王司長良玉：確實。"],["葉委員元之：就像我們今天我們兩個對話，可能最後發個新聞稿，可是我們不會把我們所有的逐字對話發出去嘛！所以我們怎麼可以講在新聞稿裡面沒看到就一定沒有，哇賽！我們外交體系、國安體系的邏輯是這樣喔！新聞稿可以把它當逐字稿，所以次長，習近平到底有沒有講到賴清德總統？有沒有？到底有沒有？"],["田次長中光：各方面的查證是沒有的。"],["葉委員元之：沒有喔！所以你們講因為那個是大陸官媒的報導嘛！這又在搞認知作戰嘛！我給大家看一下，這是紐約時報在前天的報導啦！裡面就有講啊！你可以看一下，它裡面就有提到啊！它說習近平特別講，美國如果要維持地區和平的話，就必須要公開反對臺獨嘛！它也罕見地提到臺灣總統賴清德，這是紐約時報的報導！所以是紐約時報被認知作戰了？次長。"],["田次長中光：這是他跟習近平的談話嗎？"],["葉委員元之：這是紐約時報的報導啊！在講拜習會的啊！罕見地提到了賴清德，不然習近平是跟誰談話？"],["田次長中光：我們再來了解一下，好不好？"],["葉委員元之：不是，我覺得如果我們的外交單位，我們不是說習近平他提到賴清德，然後我們很支持他這樣，不是，而是如果我們今天連事實都要掩蓋的話，我們怎麼對症下藥啊？而且我真的不太懂，你們那麼在意這個事情幹什麼？習近平提到賴清德總統，然後說賴清德臺獨，你就反駁他就好了，反駁習近平啊！你們要說不是！我們現在賴清德總統已經主張中華民國113年了，他已經是中華民國派了，習近平不要亂講話，反駁他就好了嘛！你去講他沒說幹嘛！你又不是他，然後就把這個搞成是認知作戰，我真的不懂，這樣的一個操作的用意、意義在哪裡？你看美國的報導就有嘛！你還一直去否認這個事情。"],["田次長中光：我們是要凸顯喔！我們是要凸顯……"],["葉委員元之：你務實一點好不好？務實一點啦！每天在那邊講認知作戰、認知作戰，臺灣人民聽了都覺得到底在幹什麼啊！","再請教一下，昨天我們的行政院長卓榮泰說不能講疑美論啦！因為所謂理念相近的國家要互相信賴啦！沒有人要說疑美論，但是我們不能夠評估一下川普上任之後對臺灣可能造成的衝擊嗎？這算不算疑美論？這是不是疑美論？次長，你覺得是疑美論嗎？"],["田次長中光：這個是評估嘛！做評估。"],["葉委員元之：評估嘛！對嘛！所以為什麼把所有的評估都要把它打成是疑美論，我也不懂啊！我問一下次長，今天經濟部也有人來嘛！請教一下，川普上任之後有沒有可能提高臺灣的關稅，有沒有可能？有沒有可能？有沒有可能？外交部次長，你可以回答啊！因為你們也有對美關係啊！你覺得有沒有可能？"],["田次長中光：照川普競選的承諾，這個是有可能。"],["葉委員元之：有可能嘛！那經濟部次長……"],["田次長中光：但是程度多少不知道。"],["葉委員元之：你們覺得程度多少？有沒有可能很高？有沒有可能？"],["田次長中光：我跟委員報告一下，如果關稅太高，其實會傷害了他本國，因為通貨膨脹也會發生，所以這一點……"],["葉委員元之：所以你的評估是不會很高？"],["田次長中光：我不是這樣講，他如果調得太高，也會傷到自己的產業。"],["葉委員元之：是，但是他還是會調高嘛！對我們也會有影響嘛！那這算不算疑美論？算不算？次長覺得算疑美論嗎？我們只是很務實的討論國家未來可能遇到的困境嘛！這算疑美論嗎？不是吧！不是只要討論美國對我們可能造成傷害都是疑美論吧！","請教一下，有沒有可能台積電A16技術製程會在美國？有沒有可能？你們有評估過嗎？經濟部。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，技術的問題，我沒有辦法詳細回答。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有評估過？你們部長一天到晚講台積電，現在美國說因為我們台積電在美國有66億美元的補助對吧！你知道這個事吧！"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：他們現在要求台積電A16技術製程要在美國啦！你們知道這個事嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：當時台積電去投資的時候，是經過投審會審查，我們有做過縝密的評估。"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得這個東西沒有影響？"],["陳次長正祺：它要量產要比臺灣晚3年，而且它的研發中心在臺灣，所以我們認為臺灣的技術會維持領先的地位。"],["葉委員元之：好，所以次長的評估是說雖然A16技術製程有可能會在美國，但是因為我們會比他早量產3年，所以不會受到影響，這是經濟部的評估嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：會有正面的影響。"],["葉委員元之：還會有正面的影響，所以台積電最好那種高先進的製程就多去一點，還會有正面影響。"],["陳次長正祺：不是，第一個，這是台積電的商業決策，而且台積電本身也做過縝密的評估，我們以臺灣的利益為最高指導原則。"],["葉委員元之：你說台積電做評估，為什麼張忠謀在2022年會說在美國投資是貴且浪費？"],["陳次長正祺：對張創辦人的解釋我沒有辦法替他……"],["葉委員元之：你沒辦法替他回答，但你說台積電做過評估，但他們創辦人公開講在美投資是貴且浪費。"],["陳次長正祺：這個我們……"],["葉委員元之：有一個高盛，高盛大家知道嘛！高盛的亞太地區首席經濟學家說除了北京之外，臺灣、韓國、越南都可能會籠罩在美國提高我們關稅的陰影當中，這是高盛講的。"],["陳次長正祺：事實上……"],["葉委員元之：所以事實上就是會嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：事實上是全世界……"],["葉委員元之：全世界都會嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：對，全世界。"],["葉委員元之：所以要做好因應嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["葉委員元之：不是說大家討論因應之道就是疑美論嘛！最後我問外交部次長一個問題，請問一下，現在慶賀團決定派誰代表了嗎？"],["田次長中光：還沒有。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下4年前、8年前，當時是什麼時間點會決定派誰？你在外交部服務很長一段時間了嘛！"],["田次長中光：對，可是這個你要確實……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，我問一下，4年前那時候是什麼決定的？"],["田次長中光：我要請……"],["葉委員元之：8年前是什麼時候決定的？"],["田次長中光：我要查一下，我們在籌備當中。"],["葉委員元之：是這個時間點決定的嗎？"],["田次長中光：在籌備當中。"],["葉委員元之：現在目前可能人選有哪些人？你們的方向是什麼？"],["田次長中光：現在不便透露。"],["葉委員元之：不便透露，什麼時候會有答案？會比4年前慢嗎？會比8年前決定人選慢嗎？"],["田次長中光：我必須看4年前、8年前我們是什麼時間，我沒有辦法馬上回答你這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：再確認一下。"],["田次長中光：我沒有辦法馬上回答。"],["葉委員元之：會不會是立法院院長？不確定？"],["田次長中光：不確定。"],["葉委員元之：不確定，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，次長請回。","已登記質詢的委員，除了不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有王定宇委員、洪申翰委員、邱志偉委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復，委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另有約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-15","speakers":["林憶君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","林楚茵","陳冠廷","陳永康","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","王定宇","洪申翰","邱志偉"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、國家發展委員會、經濟部報告「美國總統大選後，對於推動台美貿易及科技建\n立合作架構之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00006"}}},{"id":"157173","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157173","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eabdf22874af9b9a449e934a6858ea795290f2771d698f81fe3c7e4384474ecec015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"12:01:40 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請經濟部的郭部長 台電公司的曾董事長委員好 部長"},{"start":24.909,"end":51.169,"text":"我們賴清德總統曾經說要大力的來發展AI人工的智慧讓我們台灣可以在半導體產業跟AI的產業能夠立足在全世界成為一個科技島當然部長也應該知道不管是我們的半導體還是AI的這個產業都非常需要大量的電但是我們台灣一直是缺電的情形雖然我們執政的政府一直講說沒有缺電但是還是有"},{"start":53.351,"end":72.145,"text":"停電跟跳電事件頻傳的來發生那尤其是天下雜誌的民調特別有提到有七成的民眾很擔心著台灣是缺電的風險另外有七成的民眾更是支持核電跟再生能源可以同步來一起的來發展尤其是在11月13號賴清德總統跟我們的工業總會特別有在談話中表示說只要新的能源能夠發展"},{"start":81.852,"end":82.012,"text":"委員：呂玲"},{"start":101.381,"end":126.106,"text":"報導委員我想您剛才在說這個七成的人擔心我們的電不夠我不知道這個是誰說的不過我在這裡鄭重的跟你報告我剛剛講的就是那個雜誌他們民調出來的結果雜誌民調的對象天下雜誌那你一定要參考你不要忽略到我們社會大眾的觀感好不好是是是謝謝委員這個部分我們當然參考"},{"start":127.492,"end":131.617,"text":"那我要跟你們報告的是說我們沒有缺電"},{"start":133.09,"end":148.743,"text":"您有確定還是有頻繁的這個跳電跟停電的問題嗎?所以你們一再的保證又說明來澄清但是民眾還是擔心的所以現在我們要讓我們的成為科技島電就要穩定供電所以我現在要問的部長的問題就是說在我們桃園大潭電廠7號機跟9號機一再的延宕"},{"start":157.671,"end":164.276,"text":"雖然說有這個九號機已經點火測試了五月測試那八月份也已經閉網了但是現在還沒有拿到能源局的執照還沒有辦法供電所以我們請了民間電廠、麥寮電廠他本來是在這個五月份、六月份的時候就要除役現在要延到明年的11月10號11月份明年的11月份才會來除役"},{"start":184.673,"end":188.852,"text":"所以這就是因為要補我們缺電的這個缺口嘛是不是"},{"start":189.807,"end":218.386,"text":"報告委員 不是不是那為什麼他要延後廚藝呢你是說那個麥寮那個是因為麥寮那個是不是台電的公司他是民營的啊他是民營的啊那廚藝的時間是到了啊今年的六月啊民營台電之間有契約時間雖然到了但是容量沒有到供電的容量沒有到你們有一套的說法啦那好我們回來講大潭的七號機跟九號機為什麼一直的延後呢"},{"start":220.756,"end":240.55,"text":"這個我是不是請 延後兩次囉 是不是請他們來說 王總經理報告委員 之前7號機、9號機延後當然是因為COVID-19的關係還有就是俄羅斯戰爭、缺工等等這些因素 但是目前這兩部機已經都在測試運轉了在測試中 在測試中 所以它平常都會有 9號機"},{"start":244.712,"end":270.948,"text":"7號機是快的9號機已經在5月份測試了8月份併網了現在是7號機還沒有點火測試所以擔心的是萬一測試不成功的話我們是不是又有缺電的問題不會 因為7號機目前的測試的程序都是一步一步很扎實在進行還沒測試啊 什麼時候測試我說我們都會做局部的一個小的一個"},{"start":271.688,"end":276.032,"text":"他跟你講了7號機還沒有測試耶9號機測試了還沒發製造我現在問你7號機呢7號機12月初就會點火他測試要成功他失敗的話就沒辦法併網了"},{"start":289.222,"end":291.465,"text":"請部長、董事長、總經理加強控管整個的期程不要讓民眾有缺電的恐懼"},{"start":303.899,"end":308.663,"text":"臺電的先請回那我們講完電當然要講水那自來水的問題一直有這個漏水的問題跟管線老舊塑膠管線要太舊換新的問題尤其是我們李董事長非常認真的在派換這管線但是我們把這個數據啊調出來看了之後你看這個漏水的問題"},{"start":330.139,"end":347.954,"text":"從各個區 總共有12個區還有加上屏東這些區域我們在平均112年的漏水率平均是12%但是你看到第一區第一區的話是基隆區漏水率是20%屏東區的漏水率還是19%所以這些問題為什麼沒辦法解決呢"},{"start":354.1,"end":371.105,"text":"我們102年到112年這10年的貸款已經在做了啊做到現在10年了這個貸款率還是沒有完成跟委員報告因為第一區是我們基隆地區啦那他那邊的地形都是丘陵地所以我們建安要佔很多"},{"start":371.965,"end":394.857,"text":"加壓供水管線就比較容易有破損所以要加強管控這個加壓供水雖然說我們這個老舊管線的汰換是有足年代的汰換但是我們這個看到我們這個數據裡面它這個供水的漏水率還是還是有增加的部分還是有增加的部分是不是你看到在102年到110年這個情形"},{"start":403.402,"end":426.395,"text":"應該我們漏水率是每個單位都有逐漸在減少所以我們的漏水率的話並不是年限的問題有些的話就是地震或是氣候環境的關係所以我們希望有漏水有爆管的我們就直接換新管好不好不要一直補都沒有用你補的後面的話你加壓下去的話它就會爆管了"},{"start":429.57,"end":448.159,"text":"尤其是有塑膠管我們塑膠管的話也是逐年汰換但是我們看到我們昨天看到這個塑膠管的情形也是一樣尤其是你看到這個我們的使用年限使用年限的話本來102年是36%的話到了現在112年的話46%這個反而增加了反而增加了這是很奇怪的問題吧"},{"start":456.448,"end":469.118,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在那個因為塑膠管要使用年限大概20年可是我們逐年都在換啊這必須要逐年減少嘛所以這個是不是預算不足預算不足的話你就多編一些預算啊"},{"start":469.932,"end":490.548,"text":"是不是?對,我們塑膠管是類為優先來汰換使用年限我們現在使用年限是20年還是30年?要換管的我們塑膠管是20年20年,很多地方超過30年沒換管我相信自來水公司都有數據資料所以可以朝這方面來換管嘛因為它是30年還是塑膠管的話因為20年以上的機會還是塑膠管你塑膠管停電再來電的時候它就會爆管"},{"start":497.413,"end":521.021,"text":"熱帳人說他就會報館而且塑膠管裡面有很多的誤會的雜誌在裡面是不是所以要優先好不好這是使用年限的問題第二個問題的話就是這個塑膠管的問題塑膠管我沒有看到啦塑膠管雖然你逐年他換的話他有減少部分但是我們希望齁這個一定要按時間來尤其我要提的就是說"},{"start":521.621,"end":548.659,"text":"很多的社區沒有使用自來水的他們申請的時候請董事長優先給他們換一個社區都是兩三百戶喔他們用黃泥水在飲用因為現在的井水都被汙染了所以請董事長尤其是社區的管線要申請自來水請你們優先給他們使用好不好因為是大的社區可不可以那我們要加強這個太舊換新的管線是不是 預算不足請你編組來好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":551.561,"end":551.749,"text":"﹗"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":906,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（12時1分）謝謝主席，請經濟部的郭部長、台電公司的曾董事長。"],["主席：經濟部郭部長、台電曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我們賴清德總統曾經說要大力的來發展AI（人工智慧），讓我們臺灣可以在半導體產業跟AI產業立足於全世界成為一個科技島！當然，部長也應該知道，不管是我們的半導體還是AI產業都非常需要大量的電，但我們臺灣一直是缺電的情形。雖然我們執政的政府一直講沒有缺電，但是停電跟跳電事件還是頻頻發生，尤其是天下雜誌的民調特別提到有七成的民眾很擔心臺灣有缺電的風險，另外有七成的民眾更是支持核電跟再生能源可以同步一起來發展。尤其是在11月13號，賴清德總統特別在跟我們的工業總會的談話中表示說，只要新的能源能夠發展順利到一定的程度，還有安全的來處理核廢料問題的話，可以納入考慮。所以部長，這是不是就代表說我們賴總統對於核電的立場可以有所調整，而且還支持核電跟再生能源，可以有社會共識一起來執行？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想您剛才在說這個七成的人擔心我們的電不夠，我不知道這個是誰說的啦！不過，我在這裡鄭重的跟你報告……"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛講了，就是那個雜誌民調出來的結果。"],["郭部長智輝：雜誌民調的對象，不知道是不是……"],["呂委員玉玲：天下雜誌。那你一定要參考，你不要忽略到我們社會大眾的觀感，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是、是，謝謝委員，這個部分我們當然參考啦！那我要跟您報告的是說我們沒有缺電。"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有缺電，但還是有頻繁的跳電跟停電的問題嘛，你們一再的保證，又說明、澄清，但是民眾還是擔心的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，這個是……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以現在我們要讓臺灣成為科技島，電的部分就要穩定供電，所以我現在要問部長的問題就是說，在我們桃園大潭電廠7號機跟9號機一再的延宕，雖然說這個9號機已經點火測試了，5月測試，8月份也已經併網了，但是現在還沒有拿到能源局的執照，還沒有辦法供電，所以我們請了民間電廠──麥寮電廠，它本來是在6月份的時候就要除役，現在要延到明年的10月份才會除役。這就是因為要補我們缺電的這個缺口嘛，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，不是。"],["呂委員玉玲：不是的話，那為什麼它要延後除役呢？"],["郭部長智輝：你是說麥寮那個？"],["呂委員玉玲：是。"],["郭部長智輝：因為麥寮那個不是台電的公司。"],["呂委員玉玲：它是民營的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：它是民營的，民營的……"],["呂委員玉玲：除役的時間到了，今年的6月啊！"],["郭部長智輝：民營的跟台電之間有契約，時間雖然到了，但是容量沒有到，供電的容量沒有到。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們有一套的說法啦！那好，我們回來講，大潭的7號機跟9號機為什麼一直延後呢？延後2次囉！"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請他們來說明？"],["呂委員玉玲：好，王總經理。"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，之前7號機、9號機延後，當然是因為COVID-19的關係，還有就是俄烏戰爭，造成缺工等等這些因素，但是目前這2部機已經都在測試中，所以它平常都會有……"],["呂委員玉玲：9號機……"],["王總經理耀庭：7號機是快……"],["呂委員玉玲：9號機已經在5月份測試了，8月份併網，現在是7號機還沒有點火測試。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們擔心的是萬一測試不成功的話，是不是又會有缺電的問題？"],["王總經理耀庭：不會，因為7號機目前測試的程序都是一步一步、很紮實在進行。"],["呂委員玉玲：目前還沒測試，什麼時候測試？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們都會做局部的一個小的部分。"],["呂委員玉玲：他跟你講了，7號機還沒有測試欸！"],["王總經理耀庭：9號機……"],["呂委員玉玲：9號機是測試了，還沒發執照。"],["王總經理耀庭：就是在發電……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，我現在是問你7號機呢？"],["王總經理耀庭：7號機12月初就會點火，點火就是……"],["呂委員玉玲：測試要成功啊，失敗的話就沒辦法併網。"],["王總經理耀庭：對，但是前面測試一步一步的朝向目標前進。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，所以請部長跟董事長、總經理，我們要加強控管整個期程，不要讓民眾有這個缺電的恐懼，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。謝謝，台電的先請回。","我們講完電，當然要講水，有關自來水的問題，一直有漏水跟管線老舊、塑膠管線要汰舊換新的問題，尤其是我們李董事長非常認真的在汰換管線，但是我們把這個數據調出來看了之後，你看漏水的問題，從各個區來看，總共有12個區，還有加上屏東這些區域，我們112年的漏水率平均都在12%，但是你看到第一區，第一區的話是基隆區，漏水率是20%，屏東區的漏水率還是19%，所以這些問題為什麼沒辦法解決呢？你們有在汰換，從102年到112年，這10年的汰換已經在做了，做到現在10年了，這個汰換率還是沒有完成。"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，因為第一區是我們基隆地區，那邊的地形都是丘陵地，所以我們加壓站很多，那加壓供水管線就比較容易有破損。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以要加強管控這個加壓供水，雖然說我們這個老舊管線的汰換是有逐年汰換，但是我看到這個數據裡面，漏水率還是有增加的部分，是不是？你看到在102年到110年的這個情形。"],["李董事長嘉榮：是，我們漏水率是每個區每個單位都有逐漸在減少。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，所以我們的漏水率，並不是年限的問題，有些是地震或者氣候、環境的關係，所以我們希望有漏水、有爆管的就直接換新管，好不好？不要一直補，一直補都沒有用，你補了之後，一加壓下去的話，它就會爆管了。"],["李董事長嘉榮：對，這個本來在我們的降漏計畫裡面……"],["呂委員玉玲：董事長，尤其是塑膠管部分，我們塑膠管的話也是逐年汰換，但是我們看到逐年汰換塑膠管的情形也是一樣，尤其是你看我們的使用年限，使用年限本來102年是36%的話，到了現在（112年）46%，這個反而增加了，反而增加了，這是很奇怪的問題吧！"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，因為我們那個塑膠管使用年限大概是20年……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是我們逐年都在換啊！這必須要逐年減少，所以這個是不是預算不足？若預算不足的話，你就多編一些預算啊！"],["李董事長嘉榮：對，我們塑膠管的部分是列為優先來汰換。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在它的使用年限是20年還是30年要換管？"],["李董事長嘉榮：我們塑膠管是20年。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是很多地方超過30年沒換管，我相信自來水公司都有數據資料，所以可以朝這方面來換管。因為20年以上的話幾乎還是塑膠管，你塑膠管停電再來電的時候，因為熱漲冷縮，它就會爆管，而且塑膠管裡面有很多的污穢的雜質在，是不是？所以要優先，好不好？這是使用年限的問題。"],["李董事長嘉榮：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：第二個問題就是這個塑膠管的問題，塑膠管我們有看到啦，雖然你逐年汰換是有減少部分，但是我們希望這個一定要按時間來，尤其我要提的是很多沒有使用自來水的社區，他們申請的時候，請董事長優先讓他們換，因為一個社區都是兩、三百戶，他們用黃泥水在飲用，因為現在的井水都被污染了，所以董事長，尤其是社區的管線要申請自來水，請你們優先給他們使用，好不好？因為是大的社區，可不可以？那我們要加強這個汰舊換新的管線，是不是？若預算不足，請你編足來，好不好？"],["李董事長嘉榮：好，謝謝，我們來努力。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員，還有部長，請回座。","我們現在休息，12點50分繼續開會。","休息（12時11分）","繼續開會（12時50分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","下一位質詢請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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也就是表示我們整個前瞻計畫8年8400億終於到了尾聲那國發會作為一個這個計畫的主持人、主持單位我不曉得你在最後這一期的時候你要不要做一個總結和評論覺得這樣的一個特別預算在執行國家基礎建設的工程你現在對它的評價如何?"},{"start":54.975,"end":71.665,"text":"要不要再繼續未來?是跟委員報告根據特別條例其實整個計畫結束之後我們一定會做一個總評報告那我要你的現在啊那現在每個年度其實我們也都有做一個人的評價啦是是是是不是一句話就可以了嘛正面負面"},{"start":72.165,"end":93.371,"text":"當然正面當然正面嘛這麼簡單的事情各個成績都在出來各個縣市都在爭取這麼簡單的肯定的一句話怎麼還要講這麼多次呢當然是肯定的啊而且事實上我們從歷任的總統來看連陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統每一個總統都有在對公共建設基礎建設進行大的投資計畫前瞻計畫也不過就是"},{"start":97.432,"end":117.751,"text":"是一樣在擴大台灣的基礎建設而已而且事實上成效卓著所以我在這裡今天的問題是問國發會有沒有打算在賴總統的任內再次提出我不管你叫什麼名字我不管你用什麼方式有沒有要對台灣的公共建設再次的提出相關可能的計畫"},{"start":119.268,"end":143.12,"text":"跟委員報告因為很多公共建設都是跨期比較長的又是跨域的所以這部分我們都會跟各部會討論會繼續推動這樣是要還是不要就重大的公共建設一定會繼續推動這是沒有問題的我問你的是要不要編列關於推動公共建設的計畫啊推動公共建設當然要啊"},{"start":144.657,"end":154.949,"text":"是對推動公共建設的計畫如果各部會跟地方都有需求的話叫行政院審議我們國發會一定會去繼續支持你至少可以就你個人表態吧"},{"start":158.009,"end":183.008,"text":"這部分的政策當然是會繼續支持各部會再提的公共建設計畫是沒有問題的國發會這樣就太客氣了竟然叫做國家發展委員會對於自己國家的公共建設竟然不敢大聲支持我是覺得這樣子是太弱了一點委員在這裡要求國家應該要提出這樣的計畫再繼續支持整個台灣讓我們的城鄉差距可以縮小的公共建設計畫副主委"},{"start":185.209,"end":208.185,"text":"請您先在旁邊休息,我要的是這樣的計畫但是根據現在八年前瞻的經驗下來我認為有很多的標準可以討論一下比如說我在選區這邊其實我們剛剛也聽到很多委員質詢確實只要停車場、活動中心都是廣受歡迎的建設我要先請交通部五次長"},{"start":211.188,"end":224.218,"text":"這麼受歡迎的建設停車場你剛剛很多委員都在爭取你每一個上來你都答應他那到底最後所有的預算到底可以落在哪一個部分這是怎麼決定的"},{"start":226.707,"end":251.955,"text":"聽長長的顧問,現在大概我們會在裡面每一個上來每一個都跟你爭取啊每一個都說次長你跟著我們去會刊啊會刊以後就會協助地方政府啊然後就答應,是這樣嗎?沒有沒有,這個還是要地方提出來以後然後看我們的遺傳是,其實是要地方提出來嘛而且地方會就他所有要建設的可能他還會進行一個排序,不是嗎?是"},{"start":253.015,"end":267.688,"text":"所以到底這個地方能不能夠得到中央前瞻這種特別預算的支持其實最重要的因素就是在地方的排序啊那你們有沒有對地方的排序做過檢核他為什麼這樣排他為什麼不是那樣排"},{"start":269.309,"end":269.429,"text":"主席"},{"start":289.716,"end":296.223,"text":"我認為不但是在第5期因為第5期還是有這種停車場的爭取所以部內這邊應該要對於標準地方提出來的要做一個考慮這是第一個然後未來如果將來還有特別預算的話"},{"start":310.359,"end":326.408,"text":"也應該要對地方政府的排序中央要能夠有一套能夠讓大家說服的旅遊標準這是有對交通部的建議啊那第二個的話不好意思我們要請環境部彭部長彭部長你可能會覺得這個跟你有什麼關係"},{"start":327.589,"end":350.64,"text":"但是我們新北市的肉品市場它有很大的汙水處理問題汙水處理問題可以用在什麼樣的計畫能爭取到經費呢其實是環境部的全國水環境改善計畫但是很遺憾的這個計畫依然是要地方政府提出申請所以你可能根本從來沒有看過這個計畫也不知道要怎麼補助但是部長"},{"start":351.32,"end":380.037,"text":"我想要為你這邊再多提出一個標準就是如果地方政府沒有提出申請的話那麼中央部會是不是可以基於考慮它的公益性還有影響的廣大性中央有沒有第二軌可以介入來支持地方的計畫我認為是應該要考慮的啊為什麼因為新北市肉品市場不是單純的新北市服務新北市民耶它是北台灣最大的屠宰中心啊"},{"start":380.817,"end":382.357,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":403.723,"end":406.386,"text":"我認為不管是在這個第5期或者是在未來的特別預算假設還有的話我認為像這樣子的計畫中央是不是有機會可以基於公益性影響範圍性介入調查介入支持"},{"start":419.722,"end":449.071,"text":"好沒問題委員這個部分我們會列入考慮我藉著這個公開執行的機會讓你了解有這樣的case好那最後我想請謝謝那我想請農業部的陳部長和水利署的二署長兩個是講一樣的事情啦這件事情其實是這次三坨的颱風像新北的金山其實受到很大的災情那謝謝我們農業部還有水利署這邊都快速的來進行了整種的修復和災補的部分但是我也想告訴大家啦也是跟"},{"start":450.252,"end":472.353,"text":"兩個部會這邊做一個討論就是既然我們接下來要做治水的工程也是有可能會用到前瞻的預算我在這裡再一次的公開要求災區的工程要列為優先支援的項目災區的工程要列為優先支援的項目不曉得兩個單位能不能夠答應因為它已經就是會有問題了嘛"},{"start":473.614,"end":496.933,"text":"絕對同意委員這樣的一個想法,因為災區本身的一個附件,就是農水路的部分,我們一定會優先支持。是,水利署也一樣吧?百分之百認同,我們現在是朝這個方向。好,災區的部分,所以我想,謝謝兩位,謝謝陳部長和賴署長。所以我想我做個總結啦,我支持國家要繼續有預算支持公共建設,那不管它編列在哪裡,我認為要支持。"},{"start":497.373,"end":503.719,"text":"各項標準,我認為地方當然有自主權,但中央也要保有適度的介入空間,這是我的論點。謝謝各位部會首長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1871,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（11時58分）謝謝主席，我請國發會詹副主委。"],["主席：請詹副主委。"],["蘇委員巧慧：交通部伍次長。"],["主席：好，請伍次長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：水利署署長。"],["主席：請賴署長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：還有環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：抱歉，我先請國發會詹副主委回答，至於其他官員，因為時間關係，又各需要你們一句話，所以請你們稍微準備一下。各位部長及次長，不好意思，請你們稍等一下。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：詹副主委，今天我們討論的是前瞻基礎建設的第五期，第五期的意思就表示整個前瞻計畫的8年8,400億終於到了尾聲。國發會作為計畫的主持人、主持單位，不曉得你在最後這一期要不要做一個總結和評論？以這樣的特別預算執行國家基礎建設工程，你現在對它的評價如何？要不要未來再繼續？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，跟委員報告，根據特別條例，其實在整個計畫結束之後，我們一定會做總評報告。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但我要你現在評價啊！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：現在每個年度我們其實也都有做績效檢討。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你個人的評價啦！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：一句話就可以了，正面？負面？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：當然正面。"],["蘇委員巧慧：當然正面嘛！這麼簡單的事情，各個成績都出來，各個縣市也都在爭取，這麼簡單、肯定的一句話，怎麼還要講這麼多次呢？當然是肯定的啊！事實上，我們看歷任的總統──陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統，每一位總統都有對公共建設、基礎建設進行大的投資計畫，前瞻計畫一樣是在擴大臺灣的基礎建設，而且成效卓著。所以，我今天的問題是問國發會有沒有打算在賴總統的任內再次提出，不管你用什麼名字，也不管你用什麼方式，有沒有要對臺灣的公共建設再次提出相關可能的計畫？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：跟委員報告，因為很多公共建設都是跨期比較長，又跨區域，所以我們都會跟各部會討論，會繼續推動。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這樣是要還是不要？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：重大的公共建設一定會繼續推動，這是沒有問題的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我問你的是，要不要編列關於推動公共建設的計畫？推動公共建設當然要啊！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：推動公共建設的計畫，如果各部會跟地方都有需求的話，交由行政院審議，我們國發會一定會繼續支持。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你至少可以就你個人表態吧？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：這部分的政策當然是會繼續支持各部會在提的公共建設計畫，是沒有問題的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：國發會這樣就太客氣了，既然稱作國家發展委員會，對於自己國家的公共建設，竟然不敢大聲支持，我覺得這樣子是太弱了一點。委員在這裡要求，國家應該要提出這樣的計畫，再繼續支持整個臺灣，讓我們的城鄉差距可以縮小的公共建設計畫。請副主委先在旁邊休息，我要的是這樣的計畫，但是根據前瞻建設八年來的經驗，我認為有很多的標準可以討論一下。","我們剛剛也聽到很多委員質詢，停車場、活動中心確實都是廣受歡迎的建設，我要先請教交通部伍次長，這麼受歡迎的建設─停車場，很多委員都在爭取，每一個上來，你都答應他，最後所有的預算到底可以落在哪一個部分？它是怎麼決定的？"],["伍次長勝園：停車場的部分，我們現在大概會……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！每一個委員上來都在跟你爭取，每一個都說：次長你跟我們去會勘，會勘以後，是不是就協助地方政府，然後就答應？是這樣嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：沒有，沒有，這個還是要地方提出來以後，然後看我們的預算……"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實是要地方提出來嘛！而且地方會就所有要建設的、可能要建設的，進行一個排序，不是嗎？地方能不能夠得到中央前瞻這種特別預算的支持，其實最重要的因素就是在地方的排序，你們有沒有對地方的排序做過檢覈─他為什麼這樣排，為什麼不是那樣排？本席很幸運，我們的樹林長壽公園得到了支持，靠近鶯歌老街的鶯歌公八公園要爭取停車場，它並不輸淡水，可是就始終沒有辦法；我也非常贊成淡水應該要設，甚至人口稠密的三重，我也覺得應該要設，對於這個標準，你要怎麼看？"],["伍次長勝園：我跟委員報告，其實地方提出來的，包括它的可行，還有它的經濟效益，我們都會做考量，會去做評估……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為不但是在第五期，因為第五期還是有這種停車場的爭取，所以部內應該要對地方提出來的，做一個考慮；未來如果還有特別預算的話，中央對地方政府的排序，也應該要有一套能夠說服大家的理由標準，這是我對交通部的建議。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：再來要請教環境部彭部長，你可能會覺得這個跟你有什麼關係，主要是我們新北市的肉品市場有很大的污水處理問題，污水處理問題可以用什麼樣的計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對不對我的一個習慣會頭受不了控制你說什麼"},{"start":174.451,"end":196.776,"text":"我說我的頭受不了我的控制,有的時候會動一下,這點請您見諒。你把你的引內告訴給世界大...請說明,針對議題。我們必須尊重、要了解我們民眾對於川普上來台美的關係,怎麼樣去發展。"},{"start":197.236,"end":224.111,"text":"所以本期告訴你基金會所公布的最新民調我們會去審慎的去了解民眾他們想的是什麼但是呢從另外一個角度來看我們也必須告訴民眾台美的關係立這麼多年以來雙邊的關係是相當相當的穩固我們不會因為總統的變的話發生巨大的變化"},{"start":225.792,"end":243.366,"text":"兩黨跟我們的關係都非常好臺美關係剛剛也說了一個民調出來並不擔心65.3那表示跟你的論點是一樣但是我沒有看到這些言論這些言論成為保護會的那你的因應呢"},{"start":244.845,"end":269.091,"text":"台灣的價值對美國價值美國要再次偉大其實他需要很多盟邦一起來做這個事情那台灣的價值呢在我們在太平洋這一塊維護了民主人權也是美國所要求的普世價值這一方面我們是有貢獻的所以不能專門說要保護費這個詞我覺得"},{"start":272.912,"end":298.879,"text":"我非常贊同你所說的也就是川普在競爭在競選的時候他提到台灣應該要交保護會這一類的這一類的言論那請教田次你認為這個言論是不對的是不認同的是不可能的還是怎麼樣呢這個是他競選上面講的語言大家能夠聽得懂大家能夠聽得懂未來在明年1月份他上任會不會如此作為"},{"start":300.049,"end":321.385,"text":"但是我們也要跟美國參眾兩院也好美國的民眾也好說台灣在這裡所扮演的價值我方當然要講我方的立場我們的價值全世界要再次偉大沒有台灣是不行的我要這麼說確實但是我們只有講我們自己好別人怎麼做他已經言論出來我們有沒有應對"},{"start":322.622,"end":350.355,"text":"我們會謹慎的去了解他將來怎麼做如果在1月份之後他上任他仍舊要台灣交保護費你會認同嗎?你會交嗎?那看看他保護費的額度是多少哇 你講真心話了因為在我們的預算書裡頭我有看到內容等到我們在預算的時候再來做討論我希望審慎之以台灣人民安全最重要的為最高原則"},{"start":352.687,"end":368.884,"text":"請教市長我剛才特別說了在我們整個半導體方面以及防護的這個議題方面那他也在選舉的時候也提出那你認為你認為在他上任之後民眾有所憂心那你認為在他上任之後我方怎麼應對"},{"start":370.663,"end":391.012,"text":"報委員,如果單純針對半導體,我們先講事實,事實就是台灣的半導體是它的70%的客戶是美系客戶,而且呢,我們跟美國的不管是設備製造商,或者IC的設計商,還有它的這個應用部分呢,我們是緊密結合在合作,這是個現實。"},{"start":391.932,"end":418.551,"text":"是一個事實不是現實在這個事實的前提下川普總統的政見要落實下來的話一定要跟台灣合作所以在經濟部立場我們是會支持我們的半導體產業跟美國的進一步緊密合作而且這個事實對台美當方都有利這個合作是大家目前已經在IMT進行是當初但是這個不可預測就承諾川普重返這個白宮很多人說"},{"start":419.352,"end":446.737,"text":"他曾經自己說他的字典裡頭最美的詞就是關稅這個關稅對於我們對於我們來講我們是一個出口導向的國家在這樣的情況之下我們的衝擊會怎麼樣他主張全面性的保護主義壁壘那對所有的進口呢亞太地區呢他準備10到20%這是他之前的言論當然在他上任之後他會不會這麼做本席認為"},{"start":447.617,"end":468.113,"text":"我們政府應該聽到這樣子的言論,我們應該有因應的方向。是,鮑威爾,我們做最壞的打算,最嚴謹的準備,如果它對全世界都科百分之十到二十的話,不同的產業,不同的公司會有不同的衝擊,或有的時候是機會跟利益,例如轉單效益,也有可能是衝擊。"},{"start":469.254,"end":488.431,"text":"這個部分必須各個公司不同但是就經濟部的立場來講的話我們的準備因應方向就是我們會協助我們的台商在海外的佈局在生產基地方面能夠避險尤其在中國大陸的投資怎麼樣把它引導出來到新南向國家這也是一個避險的做法"},{"start":489.41,"end":515.956,"text":"這個似乎是所有的廠商大家都已經超前在部署但是我仍舊希望聽到我們的政府你有所作為你現在目前所說的都是輕鬆自己趕快去努力的一個方向所以我告訴你現在台美的經貿合作那大家都是非常的緊密在合作尤其我們上代協商現在還在進行協商的也就是台美貿易倡議的第二階段"},{"start":516.636,"end":537.185,"text":"本席認為想請教我們的政府目前正在談判協商會不會有所變化會不會有所依照你們目前所掌控的這個資料會不會請知會不會在我們的臺美貿易倡議的第二階段是不是會面臨更多的變數請教"},{"start":541.677,"end":569.055,"text":"這個跟委員報告第一個我這邊沒有完整的訊息因為主政單位是行政院經貿主辦辦公室第二個站在經濟部的立場經貿主辦辦公室你經濟部也是其中一個啊是是是對不對怎麼可以如此推本期最不希望聽到我們的行政部門你今天代表到立法院來就是你的課題啊怎麼會說這是誰的呢政府是一致的你也是經貿辦公室當中經濟部絕對是站非常重要的一個角色啊怎麼可以如此的推呢"},{"start":570.336,"end":590.166,"text":"所以這個是你們每天在做的啊?是,沒有完整的訊息,但是我要下面接著要講經濟部的立場,我們是希望能夠繼續進行,我們也跟美方透過各個管道我們希望要繼續進行,這也是我們希望嘛,那所以本席針對本席的提問,也就是說目前正在談判正在協商,這個就是機會,跟剛剛您說的,這個就是機會"},{"start":592.807,"end":610.299,"text":"楊瓊瓔"},{"start":611.88,"end":629.912,"text":"這個基礎就是我們的機會而且現在正在創意正在協商所以在這樣的情況之下本席是希望我本席非常希望我們台灣是這麼好的國家而且每一個人民這麼努力尤其我們的廠商是這麼努力如果說"},{"start":631.373,"end":631.553,"text":"委員的問題是說﹖"},{"start":653.51,"end":656.132,"text":"在我們的詮釋裡面所謂保護費就是加強合作啦雙方來加強合作啦那麼要讓利的話要看美方提的條件是什麼目前情況不明但是我們就是先降低風險"},{"start":682.994,"end":700.87,"text":"還有強化連結,包括對美國、對歐洲、對新南向國家...市長,你這樣講就對了啦。你們不用怕回答,因為這個階段是大家共同在討論。你應該是...其實我相信你最後的回答,也就是你心裡的話,其實大家都緊張。"},{"start":702.131,"end":719.732,"text":"但是這個緊張就是我們的機會所以我勉勵我們行政部門你必須好好地去看每一天的訊息萬變我政府到底要怎麼去應對來協助我的國人這才是我們要請問的答案嘛好不好趕快努力好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時55分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請次長。"],["主席：請田次長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我也請經濟部一起。"],["田次長中光：委員，你早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經濟部次長也一起。早。台灣民意基金會在昨天公布了最新的全國性民調，它探討出民眾對於美國新當選的總統川普先生的態度，跟當選後臺美關係的看法，我想這是全國以及全世界大家都非常關注的，以及美軍協防臺灣的信心，就針對這樣子做的調查結果顯示，65.3%的臺灣民眾並不擔心川普當選後的臺美關係，但是也有57.2%的民眾是不相信川普政府在中國侵臺的時候會派兵協防臺灣，也有另外44.2%的民眾不樂見川普當選，47.6%的民眾不欣賞川普，臺灣人對於川普總統曾經很有好感，但是也因為近期他給世界有一個不可預測的感覺，讓不少人都不敢有過度的期待，次長，你頻頻點頭，有講到精髓；也就是說，川普這一次的選舉針對於臺灣（經濟部在這邊）很重要的半導體產業，跟我們的防務議題的發言，讓很多臺灣人感到不可預測的特質感跟擔憂。所以在這樣的情況之下，我首先要請教兩位，面對國內民眾的憂心，我們要如何加強臺美關係的發展？尤其他在選舉的期間特別提到臺灣應該要交保護費，這樣子的言論，我們政府要怎麼去因應呢？如果說我們只花大錢來買軍購，就可以換來很穩定的臺美關係嗎？田次長，我敬佩你，你馬上就搖頭，請做回答。"],["田次長中光：委員，你可能會錯我的意了。不過我必須說這些民眾……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不是搖頭？還是你贊同？你說會錯意是什麼意思？"],["田次長中光：我是聽到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是本席將民調的背景給你，你搖搖頭，我以為你……"],["田次長中光：不是、不是，這是我的一個習慣……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，請說明。"],["田次長中光：頭會受不了控制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說什麼？"],["田次長中光：我說我的頭受不了我的控制，有的時候會動一下，這一點請您見諒！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：喔，你把你的隱疾告訴世界大眾了。好，請針對議題說明。"],["田次長中光：我們必須尊重，要了解我們民眾對於川普上來，臺美的關係怎麼樣去發展……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以本席告訴你基金會所公布的最新民調。"],["田次長中光：是，我們會審慎地去了解民眾他們想的是什麼，但是從另外一個角度來看，我們也必須告訴民眾，臺美的關係，這麼多年以來，雙邊的關係是相當相當的穩固，我們不會因為總統的變化而發生巨大的變化。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我當然……"],["田次長中光：其實兩黨跟我們的關係都非常好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺美關係剛剛也說了一個民調出來，並不擔心的人有65.3%，表示跟你的論點是一樣，但是我沒有看到這些言論，誠如保護費等，那你的因應呢？"],["田次長中光：臺灣的價值對美國講，美國要再次偉大，其實需要很多盟邦一起來做這個事情，那臺灣的價值是我們在太平洋這一塊維護了民主人權，也是美國所要求的普世價值，這一方面我們是有貢獻的，所以不能專門說要保護費這個詞，我覺得……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我非常贊同你所說的，也就是川普在競選的時候，他提到臺灣應該要交保護費這一類的言論，請教田次，你認為這個言論是不對的？是不認同的？是不可能的？還是怎麼樣呢？"],["田次長中光：這個是他競選上面講的語言，大家能夠聽得懂。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家能夠聽得懂？未來在明年1月份他上任會不會如此作為？"],["田次長中光：但是我們也要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會？"],["田次長中光：但是我們也要跟美國參眾兩院也好，美國的民眾也好，說臺灣在這裡所扮演的價值……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我方當然要講我方的立場、我們的價值，全世界要再次偉大，沒有臺灣是不行的！我要這麼說……"],["田次長中光：確實。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：確實！但是我們只有講我們自己好，別人怎麼做，他已經有言論出來，我們有沒有應對？"],["田次長中光：我們會謹慎的去了解他將來怎麼做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教，如果在1月份他上任之後，他仍舊要臺灣交保護費，你會認同嗎？你會交嗎？"],["田次長中光：那看看他保護費的額度是多少。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哇！你看你講真心話了，因為在我們的預算書裡頭，我有看到內容，這等到我們審預算的時候再來討論，我希望審慎之好嗎？以臺灣人民安全最重要的為最高原則，OK？"],["田次長中光：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請教次長，我剛才特別說了，在我們整個半導體方面以及防務的議題方面，他在選舉的時候也提出，民眾有所憂心，你認為在他上任之後我方要怎麼應對？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，如果單純針對半導體，我們先講事實，事實就是臺灣半導體百分之七十的客戶是美系客戶，而且我們跟美國的，不管是設備製造商，或者IC設計商，還有它的應用部分，我們是緊密結合在合作，這是一個現實。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["陳次長正祺：第二個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是一個事實，不是現實。"],["陳次長正祺：是一個事實！在這個事實的前提下，川普總統的政見要落實下來的話，一定要跟臺灣合作，所以在經濟部的立場，我們是會支持我們的半導體產業跟美國進一步緊密合作，而且這個事實對臺美雙方都有利。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個合作是大家目前已經在ing進行式當中。"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是這個不可預測，就誠如川普重返白宮，很多人說，他自己曾經說他的字典裡頭最美的詞就是關稅，這個關稅對於我們來講，我們是一個出口導向的國家，在這樣的情況之下，對我們的衝擊會怎麼樣？他主張全面性的保護主義壁壘，對所有亞太地區的進口，他準備要10%到20%，這是他之前的言論，當然在他上任之後，他會不會這麼做，本席認為，我們政府聽到這樣子的言論，我們應該有因應的方向。"],["陳次長正祺：是，報告委員，我們做最壞的打算、最嚴謹的準備。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["陳次長正祺：如果他對全世界都課百分之十到二十的話，不同的產業、不同的公司會有不同的衝擊，有的時候是機會跟利益，例如轉單效應，也有可能是衝擊，這個部分必須視各個公司不同，但是就經濟部的立場來講，我們的準備因應方向就是我們會協助我們的臺商在海外的布局，在生產基地方面能夠避險，尤其在中國大陸的投資，怎麼樣把它引導出來到新南向國家，這也是一個避險的作法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個似乎是所有的廠商大家都已經超前在部署了。"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我仍舊希望聽到我們的政府有所作為，你目前所說的都是廠商自己趕快去努力的一個方向，所以我告訴你，現在臺美的經貿合作，大家都是非常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其實過去比較不喜歡自來水因為要花錢所以呢我們都有山泉水可以用而且喝起來比較清甜但是這幾年齁我們原鄉對自來水的需求越來越高最主要的原因就是因為天災不斷"},{"start":29.466,"end":56,"text":"所以為了用水的穩定開始原鄉也很急迫需要自來水那這個部分我還是要感謝因為我到立法院這些年我接受到這種自來水需求的申請非常的多那也謝謝逐一逐一的在座以我自己的家鄉馬家鄉來講你看光是嘉義村、梁山村"},{"start":57.065,"end":71.493,"text":"整個從會勘到整個規劃包括土地的無償取得加壓站配水池的設置比一般的平地地區複雜很多大概這樣子走完也要兩年所以"},{"start":73.314,"end":78.699,"text":"上個月我去達人鄉圖版他們就很開心那我去的時候其實我心裡也滿難過因為他們告訴我說這個通水典禮其實他們已經等了12年所以我想這個部分對於這種偏鄉像是滿洲鄉最南邊的長樂、八瑤"},{"start":93.873,"end":113.165,"text":"那現在包括牡丹水庫它的用水正義到牡丹鄉加壓站的一直設置獅子鄉沿線向最後一里路伊豚草埔還有那個舊的來義村我想這些部分其實都是非常的偏遠但是呢我們也都做到我在這個地方還是要表達感謝"},{"start":114.386,"end":137.34,"text":"但是像有一些地方像是蘭嶼它也很需要自來水普及因為水對一個島來講其實非常的不容易取得那包括太安鄉他們那個很深山他們那個大興村沿館也是很辛苦要設好幾個配水池加壓站那不曉得進度如何了我是不是請董事長跟你報告好 謝謝好 謝謝委員的一個推詢那有關蘭嶼"},{"start":143.942,"end":171.636,"text":"這一個嚴管的工程也在委員這邊的一個協調、協助之下本來是有一些民眾有一些反對不過經過委員還有公所這邊協助這些原住民大概理解那我們工程也持續在...已經是好幾年了對,已經在進行了,我們一定南乙、椰油村的部分大概明年10月可以完工好,謝謝,明年10月那另外"},{"start":172.421,"end":197.055,"text":"苗栗縣泰安鄉大興村的這個案目前是水利署用減水的方式來補助給泰安鄉公所新建三座配水池這個我們有做一些技術的一個協助審查我去過很多地方你看這個泰安鄉大興村每一次去召開說明會幾乎都是泉源道塞得滿滿滿的"},{"start":198.476,"end":218.946,"text":"所以可以感受到他們對這個自來水的需求比起其他地方高很多所以我特別關心希望可以更加的來關照他們的進度好不好那當然我更關心的是一些地方就是戶數很少因為我們原鄉你們也有你們的評比制度那像這種戶數少的更慘"},{"start":220.166,"end":245.953,"text":"其實我們原鄉是因為他離那個主管縣地理環境的關係很遠所以每次要算評比都很辛苦那這種戶數少得更辛苦但是我今天看到你們的預算報告有說第5期114到118有75億齁那我不曉得說因為我從進來立法院就一直講原鄉的地理環境成本效益很難壓在60萬元以下那不曉得這個一直講一直講有沒有改變啊"},{"start":247.162,"end":255.669,"text":"發言委員：伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe發言委員：伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe發言委員：伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe"},{"start":269.101,"end":284.689,"text":"因為我們原鄉就像那個冰葬那股牆以前我們不習慣但是我們現在這幾年需求量就非常的高希望能夠多關注那我再請教一下部長因為在明年有一個五年一度的日本大阪市博會"},{"start":285.649,"end":300.324,"text":"這是很重要的活動那我之前呢有開過協調會有找國貿署外貿協會因為我很關心到底有沒有原住民的文化元素商品展演但是我發現原民會我那邊問進度齁他們跟我說沒有什麼進度欸"},{"start":304.489,"end":320.546,"text":"所以這個部分是不是事後來跟我報告為什麼我關切這個你看這是今年9月也是在大阪國立民族學博物館很大的博物館亞洲你看中國把我們原住民的服飾拿去辦一個策展叫做中國地域的文化"},{"start":321.527,"end":334.978,"text":"所以我想這個無論是政治性也好文化性也好我想無論如何原住民的在地文化是我們出去的很重要好不好部長那台電這個部分最後一個部分我一分鐘就好因為台電電纜地下滑"},{"start":338.16,"end":363.156,"text":"你們都說已經高達44%高於日韓但是我們原鄉基於風災、火災、防災的需求還有好風景的需求我們也很需要那我知道的是我關心的幾個案我發現其實市政府也都很願意來分攤但是好像一直沒有什麼進度而且我發現像這次的風災或者是這些火災頻頻發生"},{"start":365.157,"end":365.697,"text":"謝謝主席 大家辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":874,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時54分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還有台水公司董事長。"],["主席：請台水公司李董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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那如果說假設如同剛剛我們好幾位委員都在強調的就是說 如果未來美國真的上川普真的上任之後他要調高這個相關的關稅那會不會勢必又希望是說連帶的把這一些上中下游廠商都集中到美國生產因為他美國再次偉大很重要的核心價值就是他們要恢復製造業嘛那這樣會不會擔心我們包括台積電或是相關我們的這一些高科技晶片廠"},{"start":147.697,"end":173.487,"text":"有可能到美國設廠甚至把我們更核心的技術也前往美國這個機率有多大有沒有評估過報告委員對外投資台灣最近幾年來因為委員剛說要做一些比較事務性的報告我報告一下我們最近幾年來台灣每年對外投資大概200億美金左右表示我們台商已經在做全球佈局因為台灣的"},{"start":175.914,"end":200.907,"text":"經濟、工業和科技的發展已經足以到全球去佈局來延伸我們的實力以及跟當地市場和其他貿易夥伴之間加深的合作這第一點第二個,台灣的產業特性跟日韓不一樣日韓他是集團他整個過去不管是三重或是LG等等他都是上中下游一起去台灣的產業特性是中小企業組成的螞蟻從兵"},{"start":202.188,"end":227.556,"text":"所以我們去的時候當台積電去必然它的供應鏈要過去服務它這樣才能夠維持我們的競爭力而不是扶植當地的供應鏈而已當然我們也希望跟當地供應鏈合作那麼這是一個彼此互惠互烈做法所以會不會過去當然為了維持我們的實力的成長這個合作是有必要的因為我們的產業形態跟日韓不同第三點"},{"start":228.736,"end":255.732,"text":"至於科技方面的外流的話我們有一個投資審查的機制所以任何對外投資都要經過經濟部跟各部會、跨部會的一個審查像比方說台積電去美國的投資雖然是相當先進的進變但是我們在審查過程中很整密地做了評估它的在美國的投資計畫是2028年量產在台灣是2025年量產在美國目前兩個場在台灣目前大概十個場"},{"start":256.613,"end":258.374,"text":"市長你講到重點重點就在於是說我們一直擔心跟"},{"start":282.805,"end":302.873,"text":"害怕或者是說我們也認為為什麼過去一直講台積電叫護國神山就是台積電的存在讓很多人會認為是說我們台灣是相對安全可是從過去這兩三年裡面其實開始有人在炒作說如果說台積電沒有在台灣的話可能台灣的處境就會相對危險"},{"start":304.133,"end":320.287,"text":"那再來是你剛剛有提到就是說我剛剛讓你完整的敘述就代表是說你現在講到的是台積電現在生產多數都還是在台灣技術都還是在台灣而且跟美國相差來講差不多有3年左右的時間對不對一個2005一個2025一個2028嘛"},{"start":324.17,"end":340.353,"text":"那但是現在美國的政權輪替、政黨交替了那我們未來因應這1月20號之後的狀況我們有沒有做過評估或是說如果說1月20號真的共和黨川普上任之後他也要求說我要改變遊戲規則增加成本你的進口關稅提高那還有你的技術"},{"start":347.939,"end":360.333,"text":"那時候我們投審會一個投審會有辦法阻擋或是抗拒美國政府的力量嗎?除了投審會以外我們還有沒有什麼樣的機制作為是能夠"},{"start":361.843,"end":365.245,"text":"外交部的次長也是投審會的成員所以外交部次長單位到外交部而且整個國安體系都會做評估第三個我跟委員報告"},{"start":389.759,"end":411.125,"text":"因為我們也希望台積電的投資能夠成功而且國際局勢瞬息萬變我們會隨時滾動性來檢討他的投資計畫審查如何對台灣最為有利這個是最高原則好啦 市長本席提出來啦這一個問題可能是賴總統才有辦法去回答但是本席先提出來是我們先看到問題了"},{"start":412.606,"end":428.585,"text":"我們當然都希望臺積電的投資成功但是怎麼樣能夠把核心技術跟流台灣在其他地方的投資成功這個是關鍵好不好那個田次長一個部分請教因為我們有看到說海地我們的友邦"},{"start":431.068,"end":456.08,"text":"這幾天的新聞從今年整個狀況其實海地我們的友邦其實不是太好的那在5月10號的時候就舊政府還是吳釗燮部長的時候他曾經被問到說有兩個邦交國長期是有隱憂的他沒有點名哪兩個邦交國但之後媒體去報導他說有推敲有可能他講的是海地跟瓜地馬拉這個我必須要先說明清楚"},{"start":457.061,"end":468.463,"text":"吳部長只有講兩個邦交國長期隱憂他是擔心有可能有斷交的風險但是沒有講哪兩個邦交國可是現在我們看到是說海地他的首都太子港"},{"start":469.62,"end":489.23,"text":"據外媒報導,被80%幫派份子把持,並且造成說有2萬多人顛沛流離是居無定所,也非常的辛苦。那我想請教一下,到目前為止,海地政府有沒有對於我們的外交部有提出什麼樣還有需求?"},{"start":490.178,"end":508.543,"text":"沒有,沒有額外的要求。海地我們只是擔心那個政局的不穩,然後內部的混亂,然後我們在駐大使館人員的安全。目前我們大使館人員安全是沒有問題的。那我們那邊的僑民或是僑胞,"},{"start":509.775,"end":530.767,"text":"的安全狀況也是有掌握也可以掌握那對於他們政府現在動盪當然因為是我們的友邦但有沒有會在這個時候提出超出預期或是不合理的要求沒有到目前為止是沒有的那我們會不會因應譬如說要維持友邦而反而會有一些狀況產生"},{"start":533.597,"end":559.933,"text":"不會在海地目前狀況我覺得他只是怎麼樣把內部的次序做好我們沒有感受到或者沒有那個質詢雙邊的邦交會問題好我希望邦交股票再有任何的散失但是也請注意關心因為在這個議題上面從上一任部長到現在好像比較少提及但是本期還是善意的提醒好不好以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時45分）謝謝主席，麻煩一樣請田次長跟經濟部陳次長。"],["主席：請田次長和陳次長。"],["田次長中光：洪委員早。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩位次長好。我想雖然今天不是部長來，但是因為你們兩位都是長期的事務官，所以某種程度上，我反而覺得可以講一些更專業的判斷，而不要受政治立場，或者是講這種空話啦！所以本席也希望能夠就教，因為今天召委提的這個議題其實是非常重要，美國大選已經兩個禮拜了，那結束之後，後續臺灣跟美國的貿易或是相關的合作其實都很受新任川普總統要上任的影響沒錯，所以我先提醒啦！我們官方這邊先不要講說不知道川普總統他的選舉承諾到底會不會兌現或是未來會不會推動，我覺得這不是我們官方應該要去評論，我們應該都要以總統候選人他在競選時候的政見或想法，就要以這樣的方向去準備啊！因為你剛剛這樣子的回答，其實某種程度上你好像在講人家是所謂的競選支票不一定兌現，但是名嘴可以這樣子說，我們官方立場不能有這樣的態度，這是第一個，本席要很嚴正的先提醒。","再來第二個部分，川普總統當選人在過去競選期間就已經講了，他就說課徵關稅，把關稅調高，晶片商會自己前來設廠，美國一毛錢可能都不用花，他甚至有點名到說臺灣把美國百分之九十五的晶片市場都搶走了，有注意到這個新聞嘛？好，假設如同剛剛我們好幾位委員都在強調的，如果未來美國川普真的上任之後要調高相關關稅，會不會又希望連帶地把這些上、中、下游廠商都集中到美國生產？因為美國再次偉大很重要的核心價值，就是他們要恢復製造業嘛！這樣會不會擔心，包括我們的台積電或是我們相關的高科技晶片廠有可能到美國設廠，甚至把我們更核心的技術也前往美國？這個機率有多大？有沒有評估過？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，臺灣最近幾年對外投資……因為委員剛剛說要做一些比較事務性的報告，我報告一下，我們最近幾年來，臺灣每年對外投資大概200億美金左右，表示我們臺商已經在做全球布局，因為臺灣的經濟、工業和科技的發展已經足以到全球去布局，來延伸我們的實力，以及跟當地市場和其他貿易夥伴之間加深合作，這是第一點。第二個，臺灣的產業特性跟日、韓不一樣，日、韓是集團，它是整個過去，不管是Samsung或是LG等等都是上、中、下游一起去，臺灣的產業特性是中小企業組成的螞蟻雄兵。所以我們去的時候，當台積電去，必然它的供應鏈要過去服務它，這樣才能夠維持我們的競爭力，而不是扶植當地的供應鏈而已，當然我們也希望跟當地供應鏈合作，這是一個彼此互惠互利的作法。所以，會不會過去，當然為了維持我們實力的成長，這個合作是有必要的，因為我們的產業型態跟日、韓不同。第三點，至於科技方面的外流，我們有一個投資審查的機制，所以任何對外投資都要經過經濟部跟各部會跨部會的審查，比方說台積電去美國的投資，雖然是相當先進的晶片，但是我們在審查過程中很縝密地做了評估，它在美國的投資計畫是2028年量產，在臺灣是2025年量產，在美國目前2個廠，在臺灣目前大概10個廠。那麼，臺灣在台積電全球的晶片大概一個月200萬片，在美國大概是2萬片等等，這個數字我回去要確認。不過我們是經過一個評估，要確保臺灣的國家利益、經濟實力和科技實力為前提的情況下，來協助我們的供應鏈跟我們的廠商對外投資。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，次長，你講到重點，重點就在於，我們一直擔心跟害怕，或者是我們也認為為什麼過去一直講台積電叫護國神山，就是台積電的存在讓很多人會認為我們臺灣是相對安全，可是從過去這兩三年裡面，已經開始有人在炒作如果台積電沒有在臺灣的話，可能臺灣的處境就會相對危險。再來是你剛剛有提到，我剛剛讓你完整的敘述，就代表你現在講到的是台積電現在生產多數都還是在臺灣、技術都還在臺灣，而且跟美國相差差不多有3年左右的時間，一個是2025年，一個是2028年。"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在美國的政權輪替，政黨交替了，未來因應1月20號之後的狀況，我們有沒有做過評估？或是說如果1月20號真的共和黨川普上任之後，他也要求要改變遊戲規則，增加成本，你的進口關稅提高，還有你的技術，那時候我們一個投審會有辦法阻擋或是抗拒美國政府的力量嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，第一個，我們內部……"],["洪委員孟楷：除了投審會以外，我們還有沒有什麼樣的機制作為是能夠去阻擋，或是能夠抗拒這樣的力量？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，第一個，我們內部當然有做準備跟評估。第二個，投審會是一個跨部會的機制，它是每一個都上到自己的首長，它並不是就這個會議來決定，各個部會各司其職做經濟的評估、安全的評估、產業的評估、國際關係的評估，外交部次長也是投審會的成員，所以外交部次長當然是到外交部，而且整個國安體系都會做評估。第三個，我跟委員報告，因為我們也希望台積電的投資能夠成功，而且國際局勢瞬息萬變，我們會隨時滾動性來檢討它的投資計畫審查如何對臺灣最為有利，這個是最高原則。"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦！次長，本席提出來啦！這一個問題可能是賴總統才有辦法回答，但是本席先提出來是我們先看到問題了，我們當然都希望台積電的投資成功，但是怎麼樣能夠把核心技術根留臺灣，在其他地方的投資成功，這個是關鍵！好不好？","田次長，一個部分請教，因為我們有看到海地，我們的友邦，這幾天的新聞，今年整個狀況，其實海地，我們的友邦並不是太好，在5月10號還是吳釗燮任部長的時候，他曾經被問到有兩個邦交國長期是有隱憂的，他沒有點名哪兩個邦交國，但之後媒體報導是有推敲，有可能他講的是海地跟瓜地馬拉，這個我必須要先說明清楚，吳部長只有講兩個邦交國長期隱憂，他是擔心有可能有斷交的風險，但是沒有講哪兩個邦交國，可是現在我們看到海地的首都太子港，據外媒報導，百分之八十被幫派分子把持，並且造成有兩萬多人顛沛流離、居無定所，也非常的辛苦。我想請教一下，到目前為止，海地政府有沒有對我們的外交部提出什麼樣的需求？"],["田次長中光：沒有，沒有額外的要求。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有額外的要求？"],["田次長中光：海地我們只是擔心政局的不穩，然後內部的混亂，以及我們駐大使館人員的安全。"],["洪委員孟楷：對。"],["田次長中光：這部分是我們比較……"],["洪委員孟楷：目前我們大使館的人員安全是沒有問題的？"],["田次長中光：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們那邊的僑民或是僑胞的安全狀況？"],["田次長中光：也是有掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：也可以掌握？"],["田次長中光：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：對於他們政府現在動盪，當然因為是我們的友邦，但有沒有會在這個時候提出超出預期或是不合理的要求？"],["田次長中光：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前為止是沒有的？"],["田次長中光：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們會不會因應，譬如說要維持友邦反而會有一些狀況產生？"],["田次長中光：不會，海地目前的狀況，我覺得它只是怎麼樣把內部的秩序做好，我們沒有感受到，或者沒有那個資訊顯示雙邊的邦交會有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我希望邦交國不要再有任何的閃失，但是也請注意關心，因為在這個議題上面，從上一任部長到現在好像比較少提及，但是本席還是善意的提醒，好不好？"],["田次長中光：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：以上，謝謝。"],["田次長中光：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，次長請回。","鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","林思銘、林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","我們請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-15","speakers":["林憶君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","林楚茵","陳冠廷","陳永康","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","王定宇","洪申翰","邱志偉"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、國家發展委員會、經濟部報告「美國總統大選後，對於推動台美貿易及科技建\n立合作架構之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00006"}}},{"id":"157167","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157167","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab791ba4ee31981ebce934a6858ea79529aee312d9b2381ac33ef1174435adc4975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:48:58 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這2000億不會給你過你有辦法去借錢呢 為什麼給你過 對不對你講得不清楚 而且你一副就是無所謂的樣子 你就無所謂我們沒有無所謂 我們也一直在跟委員溝通就是說請大院能夠同意我們這一個2000億是要來彌補過去 因為"},{"start":127.276,"end":136.564,"text":"民生的這個成本高於我的售價所以這一部分我們是在明明的用沒有看到你的努力阿你們用比較貴的生產成本的電源這個再生能源阿也是10%而已阿便宜的核電硬不要用大家沒有看到你這個有誠意你說我窮其一切努力沒有辦法啦跟立法院有錢立法院伯有第二句話"},{"start":154.699,"end":154.779,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":173.15,"end":190.514,"text":"我們是在解決目前的問題我們會用綠電是現在我們用電戶它需要綠電至於您剛剛所垂詢的這個核電的部分它也占我們一部分的這個責任現在沒有了現在是非核現在請問你知道核三廠的二號機大修現在是沒有"},{"start":198.116,"end":224.437,"text":"現在這個時候是非核但是我們虧損的時候造成虧損的時候那個時候核電是在運作的那我們增加的部分是綠電綠電是市場上需要的所以我必須要滿足市場的需求所以我們要增加綠電這個跟能源政策我相信每一個人的概念也不太一樣好 那我再問你因為我時間快到了"},{"start":225.117,"end":227.279,"text":"你的合適兩千半百多億怎麼處理?合適兩千半百多億怎麼處理?我們按照計劃去執行什麼叫按照計劃?你要講具體的?什麼叫按照計劃?聽不懂?那我請台電的這個董事長給你報告喔!可以!部長這要知道這麼重要的事情,你還給人家聽你說,你還不抱歉?沒中捏!"},{"start":247.25,"end":271.926,"text":"報告委員因為那個核四部分還有資產資產我們現在有多少資產不要用了那個電力設備包括電力設備其實還有其他的用途可以做規用請教部長啦部長給你一個你喜歡天網行工我給你一個天網行工我做球給你啦核四廠有沒有可能增加他的一個價值所以賣給需要的廠商可以嗎有沒有可能賣給人家這些都有可能啦有沒有開始在接觸"},{"start":277.95,"end":304.44,"text":"有沒有開始在接觸我們希望把價值升高把他的這個這個沒有用的提早解決2800億如果按照相關的會計準則他不等於零年金不等於幾十億而已啦想辦法讓他產生價值你的2000億不要跟立法院拿的不要跟立法院去拿的想法跟你是一樣的想辦法做到好不好好謝謝"},{"start":306.107,"end":306.127,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時49分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部的郭部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。昨天在立法院，關於台電追加預算，有一個專案報告，要1,000億嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：在我們立法院還有另外一個1,000億，增資1,000億，你知道嗎？還有增資1,000億，你知道嗎？明年度的增資。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有增資1,000億。"],["賴委員士葆：有啦！2個1,000億，拜託！"],["郭部長智輝：還是補助1,000億。"],["賴委員士葆：就等於2個1,000億啊。我就跟你講，2個1,000億，是2個1,000億，不是只有1,000億。如果你做了專案報告，最後立法院不買單，你怎麼辦？鼻子摸一摸，就這樣子？"],["郭部長智輝：也不會啦。"],["賴委員士葆：漲電價，還是怎麼樣？你怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我們就是在財務上面去努力嘛。就是去借錢啊。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼借錢？發公司債？"],["郭部長智輝：都可以啊。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼借錢？你告訴我怎麼借錢？"],["郭部長智輝：財務的手段有很多種。"],["賴委員士葆：比如說？"],["郭部長智輝：比如說，就是跟銀行再繼續借啊。"],["賴委員士葆：你現在借多少？現在借多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我需要2,000億，就是來補啊。"],["賴委員士葆：衝著你這句話，部長啊，我們立法院就不應該給你過啦，這2,000億不會給你過。你有辦法去借錢啊，為什麼給你過？對不對？你講的也不清楚，而且你就是一副無所謂的樣子，你就無所謂。"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有無所謂，我們也一直在跟委員溝通。"],["賴委員士葆：溝不通啊！"],["郭部長智輝：就是說，請大院能夠同意，我們這一個2,000億，是要來彌補過去因為民生的成本高於我的售價，所以這一部分我們是彌補用的。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有看到你的努力啊！你們用比較貴的生產成本的電源，再生能源也是只有10%而已，便宜的核電硬是不要用，大家沒有看到你的理由有成立，如果你窮極一切努力，沒有辦法了，跟立法院要錢，立法院不會有第二句話，結果現在不是，你擺著便宜的不用，然後偏偏用貴的，然後說要錢，當然不給啊！立法院當然不給。加上你今天這樣的回答，說立法院不給，你就去借，那當然不給啊！很簡單，就不要給啊，就不要給啊，你去借錢好了。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們是在解決目前的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：是。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會用綠電，是現在我們的用電戶需要綠電。至於您剛才所垂詢的核電的部分，也占我們一部分的電……"],["賴委員士葆：現在沒有了，現在是非核。你知道核三廠的2號機大修，現在是沒有，現在這個時候是非核。"],["郭部長智輝：是啊。但是我們造成虧損的時候，那個時候核電是在運作的，我們增加的部分是綠電，綠電是市場需要的，我必須要滿足市場的需求，所以我們要增加綠電，這個跟能源政策，我相信每一個人觀點也不太一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題。好，那我再問你，因為我時間快到了，你的核四的兩千八百多億怎麼處理？核四的兩千八百多億怎麼處理？"],["郭部長智輝：我們就按照計畫去執行。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫按照計畫？你要講具體的，什麼叫按照計畫？聽不懂。"],["郭部長智輝：那我請台電董事長跟你報告。"],["賴委員士葆：好，可以。你當部長要知道，這麼重要的事情，你要講，你卻叫人替你講，你難道不會不好意思嗎？你是部長欸！"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，因為核四還有資產，我們現在……"],["賴委員士葆：有多少資產？你們不要用了啊！"],["曾董事長文生：包括電力設備，其實還有其他的用途可以規劃。"],["賴委員士葆：那我請教部長，部長，你喜歡天馬行空，我給你一個天馬行空，我做球給你，核四廠有沒有可能增加價值，賣給需要的廠商？可以嗎？有沒有可能賣給人家？"],["郭部長智輝：這些都有可能啦，都有可能。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有可能？有沒有開始在接觸？有沒有開始在接觸？"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望把價值升高，把它沒有用的部分提早解決。"],["賴委員士葆：兩千八百多億，如果按照相關的會計準則，它不等於零也幾乎等於幾十億而已啦。想辦法讓它產生價值，你的2,000億不要跟立法院拿了，不要跟老百姓拿了。"],["郭部長智輝：我們的想法跟你是一樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：想辦法做到，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。來，部長回座。","來，下一位質詢請伍麗華委員。我們在呂玉玲委員質詢之後會休息，休息時間我待會再宣布。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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如果你效率高一點的話"},{"start":236.172,"end":250.924,"text":"那你現在民進黨的補助有沒有啦那你也不去設充電樁啦電位補助有沒有而且啊電路還沒有你如果地勤業者你要自己設立電路那他們怎麼會有意願那怎麼達到所謂的"},{"start":256.633,"end":274.939,"text":"明年綠色機場還要升級這個目標做得到嗎也就是說我的主題就是你桃機想要取得綠能機場的升級那麼你要把地勤業務把機場所有的在裡面營運的都要當作你的夥伴"},{"start":276.649,"end":296.718,"text":"而不是把減碳的責任推給他們自己去享受減碳機場升級的美名所謂的你要把地勤業務納為夥伴像華航華航最近就跟淘寢的費用協商好了這要肯定一下華航他們20幾年來費用都沒有調整"},{"start":300.902,"end":309.121,"text":"那這樣地勤公司他哪有資源哪有經費去提升他該有的服務和設備嘛那現在淘氣公司也是啊"},{"start":310.387,"end":335.21,"text":"那部長回答一次楊董事長報告委員在建制的過程當中桃機公司的策略我這樣聽起來應該是比較主要是溝通這些地勤公司他們自己去建制在裡頭的在他們裡面的讓他們自己去建制那這個部分委員的意思應該是希望說我們政府應該要更甚至是桃機公司要有更大的補助或者是誘因讓他們願意去改成電動化"},{"start":336.731,"end":343.038,"text":"你經費上你電費有沒有補助?是,是不是不請董事長也補助?充電裝你叫他自己設他還沒有電力捏電力系統也沒有捏"},{"start":346.852,"end":350.034,"text":"跟委員報告這個是一個必須要做的事情那怎麼樣加快腳步現在正在進行"},{"start":368.186,"end":393.726,"text":"那第二個就剛剛我們看到的這個現有的43座的充電窗都是桃集公司的充電窗是慢充的沒有錯我們現在第一個目標是現有的慢充要改成快充那第二個就是我們的三行下目前的建設計畫裡面也有帶26座的這個快充另外就是包括業者的部分業者的部分其實他自己本身的廠房他也有這些機區要停放的地方我們也希望那你們從來沒有坐下來談啊"},{"start":394.666,"end":411.28,"text":"你都在那裡說話聽,你沒跟他們說過而且部長,一共43座慢充要改為快充,明年一年才改6座,你要分幾年啊?對不對?而且你只有6座,那你剩下的幾十座也沒有人要用啦,充一台車要充8小時到10小時你早上充到夕陽下山還在充欸"},{"start":418.616,"end":446.556,"text":"那我再請教齁這個部分我們來加速啦電路有沒有問題啦這電的供應有沒有問題啦現況來講是沒有問題沒有問題啦那我請教齁你說淘機供電量沒有問題那我請教齁長榮地勤最近他要買10台電源機組他要給飛機用那這個電源機組就是他要有一種像這電子的電力機啊齁"},{"start":448.783,"end":476.136,"text":"他要用買他要買電的啦淘氣公司說電不夠啦有沒有這件事情所以長榮最近要買他只好買再回去買柴油引擎的發電機啊是不是這樣我想這部分我還不完全清楚你不完全清楚我們回去以後會馬上查那以現況來講因為淘氣現在的第三航廈正在做長榮要買10台我再跟你講他買這個就是要有飛機用的啦是"},{"start":478.763,"end":498.508,"text":"你現在往綠能機場走,他要買電池的發電機,就是用電池在發電的,又回頭去買柴油發電,因為投機工藝既定的電不夠,你剛才跟我說電能工藝沒有問題,那他為什麼買柴油的?"},{"start":501.76,"end":527.441,"text":"這個回去以後馬上查那在電的供應上面我們會來協調因為台電公司你不能只講你明年要升級你什麼時候要升級啊你連這個你連這個地勤公司他要他要他要用買電子的發電機你就沒辦法買啊你又叫他買柴油對不對連最基本的充電樁你也沒有然後你又改四十幾座你明年才要改六座"},{"start":529.682,"end":540.815,"text":"如果照這個速度你要改8年欸那你怎麼可能所以不能這樣說話啦我希望董事長你要來重視這個事情好不好部長這個事情應該要督促一下當然沒有錯好謝謝部長謝謝董事長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時40分）謝謝主席。本席有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["林委員俊憲：桃機公司楊董事長。"],["主席：請楊董事長。"],["林委員俊憲：部長。"],["陳部長世凱：是，委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：你知道桃機公司有個目標，希望明年在機場減碳認證、也就是綠色機場評比中再提升一級，目前是第三級、Level 3，希望提高到Level 4啦！我們今天本來也就要討論如何落實地勤業務啦！所以我以這兩個問題跟部長交換一下意見。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我們先看一下，如果要落實節能減碳、也就是減碳的話，第一個，地面勤務很重要。你知道我們現在的空側，什麼叫空側你知道嗎，部長？就是航廈以外的地方叫空側啦！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：就是指空間啦！至於地面上的運具，可能有載行李的啦！載人的啦！或是拖飛機的啦！你知道有多少臺嗎？有4,554臺運具。那目前電動車的數量有多少你知道嗎？我寫給你看，333輛啦！油電車有109輛。也就是說，目前在桃機裡的空側運具、地面運具全部有四千五百多臺，但只有不到10%是綠能車輛啊！","桃機又自己訂一個目標，2030年希望運具電動化能夠達到50%，有可能嗎？我要跟你探討啦！第一，先把這些運具電動化、綠能化很重要啊！這幾千臺在地面，每天都排放碳耶！因為它們幾乎都是柴油動力的車輛嘛！目前桃機要開始改為……如果要求地勤這些運具使用電動車輛的話，那電動車輛需要什麼？需要充電樁嘛！過去民航局曾經協助推動，所以民航局做的是第一個工作，就是設立充電樁嘛！第二個就是電費要補助啦！那我們來看一下，既然桃機都自己訂一個目標了，那現在的充電樁有多少臺？我給部長看一下，現在有43座充電樁啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：那是108年設立的。接下來的109年到113年、也就是到今年設立了多少？零啦！過去五年來，連一具充電樁都沒有增加啦！而桃機目標訂到明年，說是明年要增設6座，只有6座喔！並且要淘汰既有19座。","以目前設立的這些充電樁要把一臺既有、現在桃機地勤正在跑的車輛充飽電要多久，你知道嗎？要8小時到10小時。"],["陳部長世凱：所以它屬於慢充。"],["林委員俊憲：現在全部都是慢充啊！桃機公司現有充電裝置全部都是慢充啊！充飽一臺電動車輛──運具啦！要8到10個小時。那你說，在機場的三家地勤──現在都有嘛！桃勤──桃勤應該就是華航啦！第二，星宇也有，長榮也有，他們怎麼會願意做呢？然後，電費補助也取消。設充電樁是很貴的耶！一支差不多要100萬元啦！如果效率要高一點的話。但現在民航局的補助沒有了、你們就沒再設充電樁，電費補助又沒有。而且連電路也還沒有！如果地勤業者必須自己設立電路，那他們怎麼會有意願？要怎麼達到明年綠色機場評比升級？這個目標做得到嗎？我的主題就是桃機想取得綠能機場評比升級，就應該把地勤業務等所有在機場裡面營運的都當作夥伴，而不是把減碳的責任推給他們，自己享受減碳機場升級這樣的美名啦！","所謂要把地勤業務納為夥伴，就像華航，華航最近就跟桃勤把費用協商好啦！這點要肯定一下華航，他們二十幾年來費用都沒有調整嘛！但你知道地勤公司哪有資源、哪有經費提升該有的服務和設備嘛！現在桃機公司也是啊！部長要回答？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：還是楊董事長？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，照我這樣聽起來，在建置的過程當中，桃機公司的策略主要應該是溝通這些地勤公司，由他們自己建置啦！也就是在機場裡頭的，讓他們自己建置。至於委員的意思應該是希望政府、甚至是桃機公司應該提供更大的補助或是誘因，讓他們願意改成電動化……"],["林委員俊憲：他們哪有錢？不只經費上，電費也沒有補助。"],["陳部長世凱：是不是容我請董事長也說明？"],["林委員俊憲：就算你叫他們充電站自己設，但還是沒有電力欸！電力系統也沒有耶！要形成一個正循環的話，大家就應該是夥伴關係嘛！大家來做嘛！哪有把減碳的責任都推給地勤公司？對它有誘因嗎？它有能力做嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我請董事長回答。"],["楊董事長偉甫：跟委員報告，這是一件必須做的事，至於要怎麼加快腳步，現在正在進行。第二，我們剛剛看到的現有43座充電樁都是桃機公司的充電樁，但是慢充的沒有錯。我們現在第一個目標是將現有的慢充改成快充，第二，在三航廈目前的建置計畫裡，也帶了26座快充。另外就是包括業者的部分，業者自己的廠房有這些機具要停放的地方，我們也希望……"],["林委員俊憲：但你們從來沒有坐下來談啊！你都講給我聽，沒有對他們講過啊！而且，部長，他說43座慢充要改為快充，但明年一年才改6座！要分幾年啊？對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是，速度要加快。"],["林委員俊憲：一年只改6座，剩下幾十座也沒有人要用啊！充一臺車要8小時到10小時啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對啊！現在沒有環境讓大家願意用。"],["林委員俊憲：等於從早上充到夕陽下山還在充！"],["陳部長世凱：對，這部分我們來加速。"],["林委員俊憲：那我再請教，電路有沒有問題啦？也就是電的供應有沒有問題啊？"],["楊董事長偉甫：以現況來講沒有問題。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有問題？那我請教喔！你說桃機供電量沒有問題，那我請教，長榮地勤最近要買10台電源機組，目的是給飛機用，這種電源機組要有一種像是電池的動力機啦！也就是要買電動的啦！但是桃機公司說電不夠。有沒有這件事情？所以長榮因為最近要買，只好再回去買柴油引擎的發電機，是不是這樣？"],["楊董事長偉甫：這部分我還不完全清楚……"],["林委員俊憲：你不完全清楚？"],["楊董事長偉甫：我們回去以後會馬上查。以現況來講，因為桃機現在正在做第三航廈，所以我們的電力會再加強。"],["林委員俊憲：我再跟你講，長榮買這10臺就是要給飛機用的啦！"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["林委員俊憲：你們現在要往綠能機場走，它也要買電池的發電機，講難聽一點就是用電池發電的啦！卻又回頭買柴油發電機，因為桃機說他們機場的電不夠。你剛剛跟我說電能供應沒有問題，那它為什麼要買柴油的？"],["楊董事長偉甫：針對這個問題，我回去以後馬上查。在電的供應上面，我們也會協調，因為台電公司……"],["林委員俊憲：你不能只講明年要升級，問題是你要怎麼升級啦？連地勤公司要買用電池的發電機都沒辦法買、你還叫它回頭買柴油的，對不對？"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["林委員俊憲：連最基本的充電樁也沒有，現有四十幾座明年才要改6座，如果照這個速度要改8年！怎麼可能？不能只用嘴巴喊啦！我希望楊董事長重視這件事情，好不好？"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，這件事情要督促一下啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是，當然、當然，沒有錯。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長、謝謝董事長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來有請蔡其昌委員，蔡其昌、蔡其昌委員不在。","接下來請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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對不對我剛剛一直在講這為了國際CEDAW我們都希望以這樣子公約為基礎上可以跟國際一樣我們不要有性別刻板印象我們應該要尊重性別平權嘛還有多元的選擇"},{"start":652.375,"end":671.278,"text":"我覺得這個理念大家都支持那為什麼落實的時程這麼慢呢而且這也不是很難的一件事啊只是讓女性空服員多了一個選擇可以穿褲子她活動比較靈活她更能夠守護這個乘客、旅客的安全啊"},{"start":672.179,"end":687.659,"text":"是不是 部長是 沒有錯 我覺得這個應該要加速啦這應該要加速啦好不好我希望今年年底還可以再看到有更好的一個進步啦好不好 局長加油啦身為女性我們要積極的來為我們的性別平權努力啦好不好是 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時27分）謝謝主席、謝謝召委。我們是不是請陳部長以及桃機的楊董事長？謝謝。"],["主席：請陳部長、楊董事長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長，很高興！我相信你也喜歡棒球，世界棒球12強賽，臺灣隊今年的表現是有史以來最棒的一次。蔡其昌是我們中職的會長，前幾天他也在我們這個會議室質詢，像很多委員一樣在關心，希望去東京的包機或者是去東京的位置可不可以再多一點。確實你剛剛有提到，桃園飛東京有，但是臺中沒有，因為本來就沒有這個航線。"],["陳部長世凱：是，本來就沒有飛成田。"],["何委員欣純：所以我要跟游顥委員一樣，不分顏色，還是要為中臺灣的民眾再爭取一下，希望我們能夠再繼續努力。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們繼續努力。"],["何委員欣純：我相信蔡其昌會長，也是蔡其昌委員，也會積極地要求，希望清泉崗國際機場臺中飛往日本的能夠成行，這是第一點。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：我剛剛講的，這一次12強賽蔡其昌會長居功厥偉，相信這一次比賽的表現是非常地好，讓我們國人都非常驚豔，而且大大地掌聲。我知道昨天出發去東京的時候，我們給他們最高規格的灑水門禮。我現在要講的是，那回來呢？我相信他們到日本比賽也一定會繼續贏，繼續贏的情況之下，名次會往前推，我們國人會非常地高興迎接史上最佳成績的臺灣隊回來。那我們桃機有準備好了嗎？","我必須講，以我們現在看，熱烈地送他們去東京，那接下來繼續贏，之後一定更多國人會興高采烈，非常舉國歡騰地到桃園機場去迎接他們回來。第一個我想到的就是機場的動線；第二個我想到的是停車的配置；第三，我們上次已經有奧運的經驗，我們很多奧運的國手得了獎牌，很多代表隊回來臺灣，我們國人粉絲熱情地來接機。所以有經驗，但是可預期的是，如果這一次我們的12強贏越多場、名次越好，棒球隊回來的時候，國人來接機的一定會更多。部長，那有沒有準備好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。報告委員，他們去是以英雄的方式歡送他們去，那回來我們一定是用英雄的方式迎接他們回來。桃機公司過去在奧運的經驗已經有了，不過我認為這一次的規模……"],["何委員欣純：會更大。"],["陳部長世凱：盛大度可能會比過去再更大。"],["何委員欣純：是的，所以我要提醒。"],["陳部長世凱：所以委員現在是在提醒，一方面是停車，二方面是我們在機場裡面的動線，看怎麼樣讓來迎接的球迷們可以有一個舒適的動線，又不影響到原本機場的進出，這個部分可能桃機要做一個更詳細的規劃。"],["何委員欣純：來，桃機簡單說一下。"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。不管贏幾場，回來的接待、歡迎的規格是一樣，而且會比以往更高。所以我們現在就過去的經驗跟這次很多單位都有表達用什麼方式來迎接，機場公司會全力配合。包括昨天出去的時候，我們也讓遊覽車直接上到我們要出境的那個樓層，這種是特別的規格。我們會用最熱忱，而且是跟大家一起來歡迎他們回來。"],["謝董事長世謙：是。"],["何委員欣純：針對他們歸國的最高規格、歡迎他們回來的計畫、規劃，開始開會了嗎？開始調整動線了嗎？開始籌備了嗎？這是一定要的吧！"],["楊董事長偉甫：我們會做好準備。因為有經驗，所以有哪一些需要去做處理的，現在就已經在思考了。"],["何委員欣純：我必須提醒，就如同剛剛部長講的，來接機的球迷一定會比奧運代表會接機的粉絲更多。"],["陳部長世凱：更多。"],["何委員欣純：如果是更多的情況之下，那我們的機場動線、接機動線，在不影響既有的國際、國內的旅客權益之外，我們怎麼好好地規劃？第二個，停車。週邊的交通又是如何該有配套措施？我覺得這個董事長真的要想啊！"],["楊董事長偉甫：是，會全盤地思考。"],["何委員欣純：會全盤地思考？我希望可以儘早，因為我們已經在等著迎接臺灣隊的勝利回來。你們籌備的過程可不可以給我們交通委員會知道一下？","第二個，比照奧運，我知道之前在桃機為臺灣隊喝采，我們有很多應援區、很多特殊計畫。甚至為了各單項的國手，給他們應援，讓國人可以表達他自己的心意，所以支持他們。那我們這一次有可以比照12強臺灣隊的應援區嗎？有打算嗎？有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。報告委員，有關應援區的部分，因為時間有點短，我們趕快快速來討論看要怎麼做。"],["何委員欣純：是。"],["陳部長世凱：另外，我剛剛也請桃機公司楊董事長他們如果可以的話，跟我們的職棒聯盟，也就是蔡其昌委員、蔡其昌會長方面大家來溝通，因為當天一定有很多的球迷要來，而且是集中在一天，跟奧運的狀況不一樣，奧運是分很多天。集中在一天的狀況底下，光靠桃機自己去思考可能還不足。"],["何委員欣純：對。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會跟職棒聯盟討論，看應援區的部分怎麼跟他們合作、球員區怎麼合作，以及球迷區看要怎麼處理會比較完善，大家一起來討論。"],["何委員欣純：對，我相信蔡其昌會長有豐富的經驗，可以給我們專業的意見，可以跟中職、跟桃機合作，把這個準備做到最好。所以拜託！我們國人是非常期待，而且強力地加油應援。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：剩下一點點時間。接著我就要再談，我對於空服員的服裝上次就一直很關心。飛航安全最重要，服裝其實是在展現他的專業，還有方便他在飛機上的工作，對不對？所以這才是空服員穿制服的重點。而且我必須提醒，部長，你看一下，包括民航局自己在網頁上都會跟國人宣導說搭機時怎樣的穿著較舒適、較適當，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：裡面也告訴你不要穿短裙，要穿比較寬鬆的衣物，也不要大面積的暴露，影響你的活動能力，安全最重要……"],["陳部長世凱：對，安全最重要。"],["何委員欣純：因為一旦發生了任何問題，逃生、乘客自身的安全是最重要的，所以他的肢體必須要靈活地活動，能夠有最好的應變措施，這是最重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：之前也有空服員的產業工會在說，我們現在大部分民航機空服員的服裝都要求女性穿窄裙。我們透過了很多的提案，也透過了媒體和工會的爭取，所以我知道我們開始啟動了，我們不要再有性別的刻板印象，我們希望能夠給女性空服員多一點的選擇。那現在做到什麼程度了？部長你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前像華航公司已經有褲裝，已經出來了。雖然大家對於它的設計還有一些討論，但它的褲裝已經有先出來了，那我們的國籍航空應該陸續也都有褲裝的部分。"],["何委員欣純：沒有啦！部長，我今天就在跟你講，最後這30秒。就是因為我們國籍航空都要慢慢來，對於服裝改善的時程，我到現在還看不到。你跟我講華航有設計，預計明年要上路。但是明年上路是明年年初還是明年年底，我不知道。第二個，虎航本來就是褲裝；星宇航空有承諾它也要改善，也正在規劃當中。可是其他的航空公司都還沒有看到耶！也沒有任何時程表耶！我覺得服裝的改善除了安全，再來是性別平權，而且是希望讓我們的員工能夠有多元的選擇跟決策參與的機制嘛！是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：我們已經從幾年前講到現在，去年我們在本委員會正式地提案通過，各個航空公司都說：「有！有！我們會研議」。部長，到現在我覺得時程還是很落後。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，華航的部分已經不只是設計出來，應該已經在做了。之所以會是明年上路的原因，是因為他們的組員滿多的，所以正在製作當中，應該是明年年初就可以完成。"],["何委員欣純：明年年初就可以開始？"],["陳部長世凱：年初就可以讓大家穿褲裝，這個沒有問題。"],["何委員欣純：好，我希望華航給我具體的承諾，然後給我書面報告好不好？那其他的國籍航空呢？局長，你自己也是女性耶！我們怎麼去要求？有沒有去道德勸說？"],["何局長淑萍：有，長榮的部分我們已經有告訴它，現在我們會請它提出具體的時程。基本上應該是都有一個設計上路的時間。"],["何委員欣純：到目前為止都沒有啦！華信也還沒有聽到啦！也還沒有看到啦！立榮跟長榮更不用說了，德安也還沒有啊！我現在做這個表格，是要告訴你是你要去積極、要去溝通的幾家國籍航空公司……"],["陳部長世凱：對，好。"],["何委員欣純：我想連我們的國家人權委員會都已經開會，而且也有建議、有提議，因為我們多數的國籍航空公司針對空服員的服儀規範疑似涉及性別歧視嘛！對不對？我剛剛一直在講，為了國際CEDAW，我們都希望在這樣的公約基礎上，可以跟國際一樣，我們不要有性別刻板印象，我們應該要尊重性別平權還有多元的選擇。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：這個理念大家都支持，那為什麼落實的時程這麼慢呢？"],["何局長淑萍：這個部分我們來加速。"],["何委員欣純：而且這也不是很難的一件事啊！只是讓女性空服員多了一個選擇可以穿褲子，他活動比較靈活，他更能夠守護乘客、旅客的安全啊！是不是？部長？"],["何局長淑萍：是。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。我覺得這個應該要加速啦！我們會來督促。"],["何委員欣純：這應該要加速啦！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來督促各航空公司要加速，這一定要做。"],["何委員欣純：我希望今年年底還可以再看到有更好的進步啦！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：局長加油啦！身為女性，我們要積極地來為我們的性別平權努力啦！好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝何欣純委員。拜託華航！你們反正就是，剛剛那個圖片已經在做了嘛！"],["何委員欣純：對啊！就快一點。"],["主席：說真的，有點驚嚇，你知道嗎？講真的，女性要考華航，在以前很擠的情況，可能會看到這個服裝。再來，第二個狀況是做出來的服裝很少人穿，就如同剛剛幾位委員關心的那個情況。尤其右邊那個設計是大家選的啊！右邊的設計我常見到，你知道嗎？就是在幼兒園穿的肚兜啊！我第一次看到這樣設計。圍兜兜是怕流口水用的，不過我真的覺得很像啊！只是現在也沒辦法改了，一定是這樣子啊！"],["何委員欣純：沒辦法改了。"],["主席：我看到褲裝，很fashion的是滿多的啦！"],["何委員欣純：對。"],["主席：抱歉、抱歉，耽誤時間。","接下來請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃國昌","葉元之","蔡易餘","王美惠","蔡其昌"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華\n航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之\n飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附\n屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─民航事業作業基金分預算；四、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預\n算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310302_00003"}}},{"id":"157164","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157164","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab34a0819650df147e399d0c714afe65c3aee312d9b2381ac39307f5de316788b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:18:43 - 11:27:43","影片長度":"00:09:00","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金－民航事業作業基金分預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預算。\n【本日僅進行詢答】【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-20","start_time":"2024-11-20T11:18:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-20T11:27:43+08:00","duration":540,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.079718750000001,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.957218750000003,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.37034375,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.59284375,"end":72.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.66096875000001,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.67784375000001,"end":87.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.16534375,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.97096875000001,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.30409375,"end":116.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.82471875,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":105.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.98909375000001,"end":106.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.23221875,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.07971875000001,"end":120.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.60659375,"end":190.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.74784375000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.03471875000002,"end":210.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.85034375,"end":219.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.74346875,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.77596875,"end":228.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.70284375000003,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.97659375,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.18221875,"end":275.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.59971875,"end":282.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.43409375000005,"end":293.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.36471875,"end":294.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.56284375,"end":300.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.76034375,"end":307.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.78034375000004,"end":310.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.66596875000005,"end":319.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.71534375000005,"end":366.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.52221875000004,"end":371.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.01096875,"end":371.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.04471875,"end":371.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.44971875000005,"end":371.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.90534375000004,"end":373.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.79534375000003,"end":377.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.42346875000004,"end":377.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.92971875,"end":380.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.78159375,"end":381.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.00096875,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.06846875,"end":381.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.48221875,"end":406.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.80284375,"end":406.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.77721875000003,"end":408.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.86159375000005,"end":409.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.62409375000004,"end":423.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.20534375000005,"end":433.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.48346875000004,"end":426.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.72346875000005,"end":430.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.97159375,"end":442.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.17721875,"end":441.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.22784375000003,"end":441.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.26159375000003,"end":441.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.72971875,"end":446.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.76284375,"end":450.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.12096875000003,"end":456.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.49971875000006,"end":456.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.90471875000003,"end":456.92159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.92159375000006,"end":456.97221875},{"speaker"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跟委員報告已經初步溝通然後他們的評估報告其實有陸續進來評估的說明那這部分民航局還在會診中那主要業者的意見大概就是說寵物的如何讓他就是說他的處理如何就是包含他要用什麼樣的"},{"start":295.754,"end":310.466,"text":"這是寵物的處理然後再來就是一個航空器本身的處理還有再包含這一個其他旅客的意見那因為意見進來之後呢其實業者評估來講他們初步來講依據他們過往載運這個導盲犬的部分的一個經驗來講他們認為目前都還是要審慎評估這個部分沒有一個具體說"},{"start":318.653,"end":342.278,"text":"那局長因為時間有限那我也知道民航局是很用心那我還是希望說可以給本席交通委員會的委員相關的這些相關的一個評估報告或是一個內容那因為大家都希望不管是活體或是包括毛小孩上飛機的權益但是因為各家業者目前資料顯示是態度不同"},{"start":342.938,"end":366.213,"text":"那我們希望這一件事情來講的話我們民眾的追蹤的認知可以不是停於在溝通階段而是說有一個具體的成果甚至這個讓民眾有知的權利那哪些航空業者他們是正向支持可以有這個做這段航空是可以帶毛小孩的那哪些是不行的其實我覺得至少要讓民眾能夠清楚知道"},{"start":366.553,"end":382.076,"text":"目前來講他們的態度就是暫時都不會提供都不會提供目前來講他們認為他們相關的這一些還沒有完備之前是沒辦法提供好那我想說那就是一個報告給交通委員會是謝謝好那最後再"},{"start":383.718,"end":396.775,"text":"這個標行李箱在機場大廳穿梭那這個電動行李箱的管制那之前部長有提到目前是各航空公司的規定那時候本席有提到希望交通部來主導這個規範"},{"start":398.297,"end":415.683,"text":"那我們看到這個機場公司桃機其實在經營上是用心啦評比上我們繼續來努力啦那所以就交部長那今天桃機公司在這邊那這個主導的規範那是不是在今天可以做一個定調"},{"start":416.696,"end":421.36,"text":"是 這個部分齁 機場的規範可能由桃機公司他們來討論啦齁但上機的規範這個是有國際規範的尤其是離公司的部分齁在平常的這個 行李上機都沒問題但是在電動行李廂在在機場奔駛的這種狀況來講"},{"start":434.508,"end":455.618,"text":"跟委員報告有關在機場的部分因為我們目前來講初步先用勸導因為十幾個機場都一樣沒有一個硬性的規定那我們現在民航局會邀請這個航警局等相關單位來共同來研商是不是有要增訂或修訂相關規定的必要好那是不是在早一個月之內能夠有一個相關的結論來給交通委員會的委員我們盡速來研議一個辦法好"},{"start":459.159,"end":478.377,"text":"那最後的話本席還是針對今天的預算以及包括在無人機的部分是不是想請部長也直接說明一下目前交通部在未來無人機產業在您在部長任內以及希望民航局還在發展無人機的一個願景監導回答即可好"},{"start":479.017,"end":494.453,"text":"報告委員無人機的發展是未來的趨勢所以在交通部的部分無論是法規面或者是制度面我們該修的部分一定會把它修好讓大家未來在使用無人機不管是你要考照也好或者是使用也好有一定的規範讓大家可以依循"},{"start":495.074,"end":513.729,"text":"部長你以前玩過無人機嗎我自己沒玩過有那種很小台小朋友在玩有玩過對那我覺得有機會的話就是民航局應該跟部長來針對無人機的部分來做一些研究那未來來講因為在交通部相關的不管交通運輸其實現在各行各業其實都有應用無人機的實力"},{"start":514.85,"end":537.284,"text":"那我在想其實在民航局的這個業務相關不管是跟標檢局有些業務上的重疊那我是在想其實如果說國內要重視這無人機的產業發展那其實交通部也會扮演非常重要的角色那包括錢如何用在島口上那以及說包括相關的檢測分工跟發展我覺得可能部長未來要持續來帶動好 這個我會加強了解 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":592,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（11時18分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["游委員顥：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長，延續剛才許多委員在質詢時所請教的，有關世棒十二強的比賽，這次協調班機希望加大型號，讓我們臺灣更多的球迷能夠去日本，除了從桃園機場飛日本，剛才也有委員關心高雄飛日本，本席想問一下，中臺灣也就是中彰投的部分，有沒有辦法增加班次讓更多的球迷可以從中臺灣出發？目前比賽時間也快到了，有關北、中、南所增加的這個班機，以及增加的這個載客數，是不是可以再重新說明一下，尤其包含中臺灣？"],["陳部長世凱：好。報告委員，其實這幾天民航局在協調的過程當中，是跟各航空公司都在協調，希望能夠增加臺灣飛到東京的運量，所以包含北、中、南都有去協調。"],["游委員顥：那中部的成果？"],["陳部長世凱：但是目前為止，只有桃園華航公司幫忙把航班的飛機加大，所以增加了不少的座位。包含回程的部分，其實華航公司也非常幫忙。但是委員比較關心的是臺中機場……"],["游委員顥：對，臺中機場。"],["陳部長世凱：臺中機場目前沒有飛成田的航線，所以這個部分跟航空公司溝通起來，其實可能性就相對低一些。"],["游委員顥：那就整體來講，還是持續地加油努力。"],["陳部長世凱：當然我們整體還在爭取當中、還在溝通當中。"],["游委員顥：好，沒問題。接著的話，簡短地請部長回應一下，就是關於新聞報導承包第三航廈能源中心案，東元電機總經理涉案列被告，地檢署18日發動第二波的偵查作為。是不是讓部長跟機場公司簡短回應立場，以及對於第三航廈的進度，還有民眾擔心會不會有影響？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前我有在新聞上面看到這個案子，我想一切就是依法來辦理。如果有違法的事證、有違法的事情，我們完全就是配合司法單位的辦理。我相信桃機公司也都配合司法單位的調查，這個部分沒有問題，有違法一定要抓。","另外就是針對進度的部分，我目前聽到桃機公司給我的訊息是到明年年中我們的北廊廳可能就可以做好。我們整體三航廈的建置，包含南廊廳的部分，大概要到115年的年底，我們希望在116年，也就是2027年可以正式來營運。"],["游委員顥：好。因為這個議題現在正在偵查階段，還是希望交通部本於能夠讓第三航廈再讓我們的國際能見度更加地提升，所以在進度上跟品質上還是請交通部務必要嚴格地把關。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊董事長偉甫：游委員，我可以補充一下嗎？"],["游委員顥：請。"],["楊董事長偉甫：這個案子跟桃園機場公司有關的是，這兩家廠商他們工程爭議的問題是我們桃園機場的工程，但是因為一個是上游，一個是下游，是他們兩家之間的糾紛。"],["游委員顥：是，清楚。"],["楊董事長偉甫：他們所承接的這件工程目前的進度是超前。以現況來講，我們沒有什麼影響，所以這是兩件事情。"],["游委員顥：好，OK，那也是讓你們能夠有機會回應。接著延續剛才有提到的，就是開放寵物進客艙。本席想要直接就教的是，之前有提到已經有做溝通，包括國內的國籍相關航空公司也有在做討論，請簡短回答一下何時可以開放，以及目前在溝通的航空業者、航空公司有哪家是支持、哪家反對？有沒有相關的評估報告以及溝通的成果？何時可以開放？"],["陳部長世凱：我請何局長回答好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，已經初步溝通，他們評估的說明其實有陸續進來，這部分民航局還在彙整中。主要業者的意見大概就是寵物的處理，就是包含牠要用什麼樣的……然後再來就是航空器本身的處理，還有其他旅客的意見。依據業者過往載運導盲犬的經驗，他們初步認為目前都還是要審慎評估，這個部分沒有具體說要怎麼樣……"],["游委員顥：好。局長，因為時間有限，我也知道民航局是很用心，我還是希望可以給本席及交通委員會的委員相關的評估報告或是內容。大家都希望保障活體或是毛小孩上飛機的權益，但是各家業者目前資料顯示是態度不同。以這件事情來講，我們希望民眾追蹤的認知可以不是停在於溝通階段，而是有一個具體的成果。甚至讓民眾有知的權利，包括哪些航空業者他們是正向支持，坐這家航空公司是可以帶毛小孩的、哪些是不行的，我覺得至少要讓民眾能夠清楚知道。"],["何局長淑萍：目前來講，他們的態度就是暫時都不會提供。"],["游委員顥：都不會提供？"],["何局長淑萍：目前來講，他們認為他們相關的部分還沒有完備之前是沒辦法提供的。"],["游委員顥：好，那就請提出一個報告給交通委員會。"],["何局長淑萍：是，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：最後，談到飆行李箱在機場大廳穿梭，有關電動行李箱的管制，之前部長有提到目前是各航空公司的規定，那時候本席有提到希望交通部來主導這個規範。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["游委員顥：我們看到機場公司桃機其實在經營上是用心啦！評比上我們繼續來努力。所以就教部長，今天桃機公司在這邊，主導的規範是不是在今天可以做一個定調？"],["陳部長世凱：有關這個部分，機場規範可能由桃機公司他們來討論，但上機的規範這個是有國際規範的，尤其是鋰電池的部分。"],["游委員顥：就是在平常的……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["游委員顥：行李上機都沒問題……"],["陳部長世凱：電池部分是都有管理。"],["游委員顥：但是電動行李箱在機場奔馳的狀況來講？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，有關在機場的部分，我們目前初步先用勸導，因為十幾個機場都一樣，沒有一個硬性的規定。現在民航局會邀請航警局等相關單位，來共同研商是不是有要增訂或修訂相關規定的必要。"],["游委員顥：好，那是不是在一個月之內，能夠有一個相關的結論來給交通委員會的委員？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們儘速來研議一個辦法。"],["游委員顥：好，最後，本席還是針對今天的預算，以及包括在無人機的部分，是不是請部長也直接說明一下，交通部未來在無人機產業，您在部長任內，以及希望民航局發展無人機的願景？請簡短回答幾個部分。"],["陳部長世凱：好。報告委員，無人機的發展是未來的趨勢，所以在交通部的部分，無論是法規面或者是制度面，我們該修的部分一定會把它修好，讓大家未來在使用無人機，不管是你要考照也好，或者是使用也好，有一定的規範讓大家可以依循。"],["游委員顥：部長，你以前玩過無人機嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我自己沒玩過，有那種很小台、小朋友在玩的，有玩過。"],["游委員顥：我覺得有機會的話，民航局應該跟部長針對無人機的部分來做一些研究。未來在交通部相關的交通、運輸方面，現在各行各業都有應用無人機的實例。其實在民航局的相關業務，即使是跟標檢局有些業務上的重疊，如果國內要重視無人機的產業發展，交通部也會扮演非常重要的角色。錢如何用在刀口上，以及包括相關的檢測分工跟發展，我覺得可能部長未來要持續來帶動。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我會加強了解，謝謝。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游委員。","接下來有請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃國昌","葉元之","蔡易餘","王美惠","蔡其昌"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華\n航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之\n飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附\n屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─民航事業作業基金分預算；四、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預\n算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310302_00003"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}