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劉亞文"},{"start":2228.706,"end":2244.606,"text":"今天我們衛務部全員到齊我們在邱部長說明之前做以下宣告"},{"start":2246.306,"end":2271.261,"text":"114年衛生福利部公務及基金預算案委員針對審查之書面提案請於12月6日下午5點以前書面送交本委員會辦公室那今年的那個會期我們是確定延到元月21日所以大家心裡有準備那接下來我們請邱部長來說明時間6分鐘"},{"start":2280.051,"end":2300.272,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天大院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會早開全體委員會議選查本部主管114年度預算案本部呈邀列席報告自感榮幸本人僅提出檢要報告報告大綱請參閱"},{"start":2303.956,"end":2313.644,"text":"本部114年的施政計畫是基於促進全民健康與福祉的使命建構健全福利服務體系等八大施政目標"},{"start":2315.502,"end":2329.568,"text":"為達到施政目標本部結合公務及基金預算支援推動各項未設政業務擬定各項工作及業務計劃其中公務預算稅入編列31.7億元稅出編列3701.8億元基金預算部分總收入為1兆1500.3億元總支出1兆1640.9億元"},{"start":2343.635,"end":2364.305,"text":"先說明本部公務預算編列情形稅率預算編列31.7億元以歸會收入24.6億元最高約佔78%只要是食藥署的藥材、藥品、衣材、化妝品、食品、茶宴、檢驗等審查會收入稅數預算編列3701.8億元以補助社會保險等法律義務支出"},{"start":2372.15,"end":2380.777,"text":"2506億元約佔68%最高其次為本市推動各項為修正業務所需要的基本需求1044.1億元約佔28%本部稅務預算大部分為社會"},{"start":2388.001,"end":2390.042,"text":"基金預算部分本部主管的基金"},{"start":2416.178,"end":2424.065,"text":"具有4個作業基金和1個特別收入基金均編列護士單位預算其中醫療藥品基金下設26個部立醫療機構的分預算"},{"start":2428.431,"end":2450.228,"text":"衛生福利部特別收入基金只有11個分預算各基金名稱及主要辦理業務如簡報請委員參列本部4個作業基金主要辦理醫療業務、管制藥品、滯銷以及健保與國保等業務共編類收入一兆510.2億元以支出一兆488.4億元收支付抵後"},{"start":2456.345,"end":2475.074,"text":"本期剩餘計21.8億元其中憲保基金及國保基金無疑錯適應憲保基金原收支差距459.9億元以收回安全準備應應那國保基金原收支皆以338.8億元則悉數提存為安全準備"},{"start":2480.41,"end":2494.154,"text":"衛生福利特別收入基金編列基金來源990.1億元本年度應用基金可用財源用以辦理長期照顧及各項衛生保健及社會福利業務估計投入1152.5億元故預計產生短促162.4億元將用於前年度的剩餘填補"},{"start":2505.509,"end":2518.095,"text":"本部配合行政院施政方針為執行實現健康臺灣的願景推動長期照顧服務因應少子化問題及健全社會安全網等重要政策114年度預算編列情況說明錄下為實施健康臺灣願景本部114年度預算"},{"start":2525.299,"end":2533.067,"text":"預計投入607億辦理健康臺灣生根相關措施國家癌症防治計畫推動8.888計畫確保健保永續經營等多項作為以及持續優化醫療環境與資源普及"},{"start":2540.495,"end":2563.516,"text":"癌症篩檢與慢性病預防．擴大辦理心理健康支持措施．加速引入癌症診療．使國人享有更完善及做前的健康照顧．除了健康臺灣所推動的醫衛措施以外．本部為照顧弱勢、營養高齡化及少子化議題．亦提出長期照顧強化社會安全網．少子齡化對策計畫．"},{"start":2565.27,"end":2587.121,"text":"以及部件身心障礙照顧服務支援等重要社福預算首先為了落實政府長照長期照顧政策114年度本部長照經會共編884.6億只要系系辦理長期照顧給互及支付制度社區整體照顧服務體系及機構及社區預防性照顧服務等"},{"start":2588.699,"end":2617.388,"text":"其逐步建構完整長壽體系實現在地老化目標此外為助年輕一代怨婚感生感癢編列少子化對策計畫358.5億減輕家庭照顧者負擔擴增及多元化身心障礙福利機構服務編列身心障礙照顧服務支援部件計畫70.6億元實施編列社安網第二期計畫67億以完備社會安全體系本部公務及"},{"start":2618.713,"end":2637.86,"text":"基金預算．執行．與國民健康福祉息息相關為實踐提高高品質醫療衛生保健與福利服務並達成健康臺灣福利全民的政策目標懇請各位委員支持本部預算謝謝謝謝部長的說明"},{"start":2649.932,"end":2677.595,"text":"今天看起來沒有像昨天那麼多人了昨天實在太累了我們現在開始詢答做以下的宣告本會委員詢答時間8分鐘列席的委員4分鐘委員花園登記10點半截止如果有書面質詢請以上會請提出預期不受理"},{"start":2679.276,"end":2691.441,"text":"暫定10點半前後休息10分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案好那我們現在開始詢答我們請地會委員陳昭芝有言質詢好謝謝主席有請邱部長部長請"},{"start":2707.705,"end":2712.591,"text":"委員長部長你有關注昨天的在未還委員會的質詢嗎有沒有因為我昨天在財政委員會集管署報紙是已經沸沸揚揚集管署有傳出有土皇帝組長霸凌組員這件事您知道嗎"},{"start":2726.877,"end":2755.604,"text":"有這樣的新聞出來我們立即再處理請問部長那除了集管署之外衛福部內有沒有其他的單位有類似的情形只要有任何的一個信息我們一定如果你收到檢舉你會不會處理當然會處理你卓院長昨天說了要徹查那部長你要怎麼查你要被動嗎還是要先主動的去了解"},{"start":2756.311,"end":2784.07,"text":"如果有信息我們一定先去瞭解它的來源以及我們會用最嚴格的規定來進行基本上都會像機關署這個我們會用好部長 機關署署長請回沒問題你們再進行部長某個FB的匿名粉專公開貼文提到貴部的他用市長某市長霸凌所屬的無良長官不分平假日下屬要安扣我也收到類似的檢舉"},{"start":2785.271,"end":2801.959,"text":"部長你要不要查這件事情我等一下把這張給你就是在捲舉衛福部的我們立即來瞭解你要不要來處理這件事情當然要處理麻煩劉玉娟主秘請上台謝謝玉娟主秘"},{"start":2812.884,"end":2830.261,"text":"請問是不是真有此事你有沒有自己早早下班讓下屬幫你看門要求下屬24小時安扣以及跟類似這個霸凌下屬的行為請您自己說明我沒有請過同仁要加班或是假日要來上班沒有一次都沒有過"},{"start":2832.148,"end":2835.452,"text":"報告委員因為我裡面有看一下他好像是說最近才調來的司長我們的司長沒有新任的"},{"start":2851.791,"end":2870.518,"text":"我們的司長,像劉一堅司長已經...部長,坦護是不會有好結果的,我們想瞭解一下,可能...我想說部長,那您就回去調查,但是我想聽主秘,您說您完全沒有這個類似的...他說此人空降司長數月"},{"start":2874.143,"end":2889.735,"text":"我收到的檢舉是這樣的我收到檢舉立委這兩天每個立委都收到一堆檢舉每個立委都收的太多檢舉了因為蜜兔事件延燒了那請你說明一下沒關係只要有任何的信息我會交人事處"},{"start":2893.038,"end":2911.28,"text":"主席不能講話嗎你就是說沒有對不對你就是一句話就是沒有提到執政黨空降愛將你覺得你自己有沒有讓部主被霸凌的感覺我沒有請同仁過來你沒有覺得你有被讓屬下有被你霸凌的感覺我瞭解"},{"start":2912.581,"end":2926.546,"text":"我們的這些主管其實都是長久的部長這個是兩回事部長請讓公務員你會去調查請讓公務員願意講真話的方式去調查你有智慧來了解我們在調查的程序有這樣的一個匿名的好"},{"start":2932.248,"end":2961.808,"text":"那我當然覺得說不只是衛福部啦我希望所有的行政機關都能夠這個主管都沒有在職場類似霸凌的行為讓員工們能夠好好的做事安心有錢的人為國家付出嘛這也是我們追求的目標我們追求的目標跟委員一樣部長那就是請你記得這件事是部長我們來談百億癌藥基金現在預注了50億元到健保基金叫做癌症心要暫時性支付款項專款專用部長您知道請您回答這個基金這個專款的目的是什麼"},{"start":2963.589,"end":2988.358,"text":"目的其實就是希望這個部份我們希望能夠來我意思是說專管的目的就是加速嘛加速 該用的藥嘛那這樣子的話但是我要我瞭解現在新藥的審查方式就是經過專家會議然後再共鳴會嘛那這當中還有很多要處理的事來回的意見跟意見"},{"start":2989.818,"end":3006.288,"text":"是那要不少時間那據我瞭解本週一提出的這個作業在癌症性要暫時性支付款的過程審查過程跟現在一模一樣現在是要審查一模一樣那這樣真的能加快嗎部長這樣真的能加速嗎你如果步驟跟以前都一樣真的能加速嗎"},{"start":3007.233,"end":3022.304,"text":"我想我們不只步驟我們有成立更多的一個怎麼加速步驟一模一樣啊經過的過程這個關卡都一模一樣啊那如果沒有辦法加速那這個專款就是虛晃一朝啊委員可不可以容許我請那個署署長跟你說明一下"},{"start":3023.271,"end":3048.63,"text":"跟委員報告這裡面有幾個加速的關鍵第一個就是說我們就啟動了這個平行審查機制就是他可以在那個申請我知道你瞭解但是我們現在要等著看他的結果啦好不好就是說我有一些建議因為這個是公務特別預算嘛部長是不是特別編出來的嘛特別目的嘛那他一定要經過共你會討論嗎"},{"start":3051.156,"end":3071.185,"text":"跟委員報告當然這一關卡很麻煩的對但是呢因為這個預算的本身還是在健保基金裡面那我們當然是還是尊重啦不過我們可以加速因為他的預算比較多了那主導您進來回答那我們可不可能把它當報告案報告過去就好了因為這是特別的"},{"start":3071.886,"end":3086.125,"text":"就不需要再討論了另外我想就這個時間剛好跟兩位署長建議我認為共理會應該要直播啦我是不是從衛福部開始先進國家任何重要的會議有關人民權益的會議其實包括疫苗審查的時候"},{"start":3087.186,"end":3108.582,"text":"我們覺得是應該考慮要直播現在是片片斷斷剪來剪去不是真相這是第一個就是請你們快速研議夠你會直播的可能性讓大家每個人為他自己講話負責任真的有困難就讓大家知道這個都是大家都可以做還有病人練習的部分可不可能成為正式代表就是病人代表的部分那一次是這樣做的"},{"start":3109.342,"end":3120.649,"text":"我們現在有徵詢這個請健保會推薦屬於這個非醫療服務提供者的代表來加入到這個共理會議正式代表部長你還記得這本書嗎健康達人125"},{"start":3124.631,"end":3130.493,"text":"我們兩個是第一第二作者這本書當時出版的目的就是回歸健保只是要不給付當時侯署長是先把維他命類的跟這個胃藥民眾說胃藥我們說致酸劑先排除但是要處理一些一般感冒藥的時候遇到一些障礙"},{"start":3149.02,"end":3165.778,"text":"當時侯署長交代說我們要先做民眾的教育自我健康的照顧所以要先有一本類似這樣的書所以我們是這樣做出來的自我用的部分那4個月前我們的附帶決議當中有這個部分只是要這個推出健保給付等等"},{"start":3167.219,"end":3195.462,"text":"那時候我們講好3個月啊,現在4個月過去了,怎麼樣程度啊?有言議你一定實懲,因為這個要盡量我們是站在保護民眾健康的一個,這是最高原則之下,我們去爭取大家的意見,類似實懲這個公文上面寫說,取消只是要給付實懲,這是違法給付不是叫取消啦,是要回歸啦"},{"start":3196.002,"end":3221.944,"text":"要回歸了那部長這個我就講一下只是要看起來只有一二十億啦但是我們現在每人每年看病是17到18次啊你應該都說過啊說大家檢看一次其實我沒有要全面讓大家說欸就是說欸都回到立刻回到這個社區但是如果每個人每年少一次看病你們自己說的啊可以少300億啊啊這個錢就拿來處理心要處理重大疾病現在大缺口的部分都可以處理啊"},{"start":3222.905,"end":3240.577,"text":"所以是不是說這個有關在附帶決議的部分那再請你處理一下主席再給我一點時間因為現在很多這個我們衛福部努力在推動這個居家安寧照護計畫居家安寧照護計畫那透過疼痛的控制減緩身體不適可以讓末期的病人的生命品質"},{"start":3241.577,"end":3246.818,"text":"部長您知道現在病人或家屬要取得這個管制藥品有多困難嗎?是怎麼取得的嗎?就是居家安寧照護計畫您知道他怎麼取得?"},{"start":3263.863,"end":3290.016,"text":"我想我一個安寧的老兵這三十年來就是在處理這件事情他是透過社區健保特約藥局來做的很感謝藥局來協助但是他們做準備跟交付藥品才能順利做但是這個現在有一些問題我簡單跟部長講部長現在這個特約藥局大概有7600家您可以猜想嗎有多少家加入了這個這麼重要的計畫呢"},{"start":3292.381,"end":3303.343,"text":"大概有多少家?7600家當中有多少家加入的呢?大概有100家左右啦!不定有57間而已啦!連1%都沒有啦!這麼低的原因跟很多的問題有關啦!大概就幾個問題!健保給付的點數是有改進空間的!第二個這個因為這個管制藥品管理非常嚴格嘛!違反這個銷毀程序!罰額很高喔!在15到75萬!那要是在回收的過程當中如果不小心破損了"},{"start":3321.607,"end":3332.752,"text":"他至少也要罰15萬以上不合比例啊而且那個食藥署的管制藥品管制工廠轉嫁成本到藥局導致藥局在執行這個成本過高譬如說藥局跟這個製藥工廠訂定這個這個管制藥品的時候油費手續費匯費廢片記錄管理管制藥品廢棄物清潔費過期報銷費等等都有藥局來承擔啊你這樣叫他們你做功德就算了你還讓他額外付出"},{"start":3350.1,"end":3356.342,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以一個月內做一個檢討因為你要鼓勵居家安寧照護那你要讓社區藥局能夠配合你又管這麼嚴讓他嚇死了對不對疼痛的共識對居家安寧的病人是非常重要的這個社區藥局不斷的來跟我澄清這件事已經有一段時間了我們管治藥品當然要嚴格怎麼樣嚴格之下"},{"start":3373.729,"end":3383.564,"text":"最合理的比較符合比例的讓民眾能夠得到最好的照顧也不應該都轉嫁到社區藥局嗎當然當然現在這是配合國家計畫來處理好那謝謝部長我把這張交給您好謝謝謝謝陳昭志委員謝謝部長"},{"start":3389.434,"end":3409.807,"text":"那個那個那個疫苗的施打部長,也是一樣啊,都叫美医叫金獸自己負擔所有的管銷、冷氣、空調、冰,壞掉都要自己賠一起一起一起一起研議啦,趙志偉都提金獸公關委,我也要提金獸公關委"},{"start":3414.977,"end":3419.798,"text":"好 接續我們請林業勤委員質詢要補介紹我們盧憲宜委員盧憲宜委員到場主席麻煩我們的邱部長委員長"},{"start":3437.605,"end":3465.836,"text":"部長早今天要跟部長討論三個我很關心的議題第一個就是我們現在預算最多的也是最重要的社安網的部分明年度是社安網第二期計畫的最後一年你的預算也編列了大約66億9千萬可是近期發生的重大惡劣事件裡邊想問部會間我們支援網絡的部件狀況是什麼社安網真的連起來了嗎叫做網絡嗎"},{"start":3467.316,"end":3490.615,"text":"還是仍然充滿了破洞這其實是我們一直在努力的目標也感謝委員一直關心這個部分網路的串聯的確是社安網一個很重要的關鍵那這個部分其實我們衛福部社家屬這個部分可以說是也是很多的策略在進行"},{"start":3491.907,"end":3507.737,"text":"真的有在徹底在做進行嗎因為從近年重大的惡虐事件當中跟監察院的報告都指出跨網絡的合作機制仍然是沒有很順暢的讓色安網一再落入的色證的色安網"},{"start":3508.677,"end":3525.214,"text":"社政的社安網的困境所以什麼叫社政社安網我就引述專家學者說的大家看到社安網還是會覺得是歸屬於社政變成社政孤立無援所以我們社工做得非常辛苦還沒有網絡的資源最後網絡就是只剩下通報的功能現在整體的網絡功能被惡化"},{"start":3527.276,"end":3527.657,"text":"衛生福利部長"},{"start":3542.976,"end":3545.137,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3568.67,"end":3576.656,"text":"今天我們的預防針只要打到兩歲三個月然後最後就是告訴我們的社政告訴社政之後呢那"},{"start":3577.757,"end":3598.855,"text":"社政去訪說小孩子被其他情人帶走那有沒有去查證然後再來就是去通知警政部長如果你對於自己鄉下的衛政都管不了然後你要去通知警政警政如果也不去查訪然後最後才知道說孩子已經因為已經要念書了孩子走了"},{"start":3599.375,"end":3623.887,"text":"多年前就走了那他還領育了今天這不是覺得很荒謬嗎所以我想問一下你的網絡到底有串接嗎你的網絡的連結到底衛福部有沒有幫社工看到你要怎麼去做不要讓我們的各部會政府部門不能說講好聽叫各司其職講難聽叫各自為政最後你能處理內政嗎"},{"start":3625.248,"end":3653.574,"text":"到底網絡真的有連結嗎?還是真的是社政的社安網?好,謝謝委員那我兩個部分,第一個部分就是那個其實衛政這個部分,我們全國的其實醫療院所過去幾年來在像我們蘇昭偉以前當過前院會理事長也很重視這一塊,所以我們其實跟醫療院所都有跟社會安全網在結合在各個"},{"start":3654.814,"end":3664.742,"text":"議事公會在推廣給所有的醫療院所在做希望真的部長這有牽扯到不是只有衛生有教育警政勞政都有關聯性我們也有在串聯是請那個"},{"start":3669.685,"end":3693.667,"text":"是跟委員報告謝謝委員關心基本上在今天談的這個議題都已經在入法而市場裡頭都有規定因為過去我在民間就常碰到類似這種狀況然後進來還是碰到這種狀況表示你的網絡線還是沒辦法你一個保護師可以去跟教育溝通嗎甚至有些現在社工人員都撥補到教育體系或是警政體系那有用嗎"},{"start":3694.949,"end":3704.119,"text":"有些家庭教育中心的社工人員都還沒補齊在中央在行政院在衛福部在中央以及到縣市都有網絡的不同層次的會議事實上已經達到這個目標當然"},{"start":3711.647,"end":3740.54,"text":"所以我們在系統上面資訊系統也有做勾結所以這個部分都已經逐漸邁向他是一個網路如果這些解決了不會今年度又發生同樣的問題然後你最後就是去跟媽媽去追那個他預的那個育兒津貼而已嗎還是早就走了是在制度建構上面通常都是透過個案來檢驗我們會希望你的預算編了可是要真的能夠防堵孩子不要再"},{"start":3741.46,"end":3755.937,"text":"施去我覺得這是國家的責任在部長這邊也要再跟你提醒你自己來自醫療體系那今年3月的總諮詢的時候我就已經提過死因回溯應該要擴大來全面執行"},{"start":3756.657,"end":3775.476,"text":"為什麼因為過去我們的法定沒有錯0到6歲可是我覺得政府如果在法沒有改當中為保護孩子不應該去考慮嗎你的1到14歲事故傷害事實上是死亡的第一名欸始終都沒有去解決一直要去處理惡虐我不是不贊成可是最大死因是在事故傷害這一塊"},{"start":3777.057,"end":3799.413,"text":"所以在那3月的時候我就質詢那那時候曾經人院長也有承諾答應是說至少兩個東西要做這也是符合我們2022年國際委員來省CRC的時候他提到交通事故還有呢自殺交通的確我們的交通部跟國土署那邊編了4年400億要去改善交通環境自殺也編了1.6億要來做"},{"start":3802.535,"end":3802.735,"text":"主席"},{"start":3830.757,"end":3854.669,"text":"我們就是不斷的讓自殺一直維持在第二名那交通維持在第一名那想問一下因為英國的做法他本來是3595人死亡下降到2724人那可以透過這樣的回溯讓可修正的問題事實上成長到37%所以想問一下你們到底要怎麼來執行"},{"start":3856.472,"end":3882.491,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實委員上次執行隨行以後我們一直在演繹要演繹到什麼時候因為為什麼上次就說你們編的經費太少了根本都沒辦法達到結果到現在我看114年的預算還是依然入庫其實我們都有委託專人在分析部長先講大概什麼時候為什麼因為我3月執行的時候那時候就已經有承諾可是我再看114年預算還是這樣"},{"start":3885.707,"end":3905.556,"text":"委員這兩個部份阿 二樓死因回顧的部份目前6歲以下要不要做到我們的至少這兩個交通跟自殺已經是最嚴重自殺心理健康是已經委託臺大團隊在做研究分析如果等到你們研究分析不知道又有多少孩子傷亡因為我們今年生的"},{"start":3907.202,"end":3907.802,"text":"交通事故也是一樣嗎?"},{"start":3931.711,"end":3945.857,"text":"我想這個死亡死因的分析是非常重要,任何一個年齡層都需要就好像我們在醫院病人如果有狀況的話我們都會做很分析來減少來避免這樣的悲劇"},{"start":3946.997,"end":3961.08,"text":"那部長是講說你現在會做明年會執行嗎尤其是我剛剛講的那兩個議題也符合我們的國際委員審查的時候的要求否則你2026年怎麼去交第二第三次的國家報告"},{"start":3962,"end":3983.067,"text":"據我了解我們國內大概二三十年前一直發展青少年醫學在這個部分他們也做了很多的努力我想我們衛福部把相關的資訊收集我相信所有的相關部門都一直在努力我沒有說不努力可是要切中要害好嗎要知道死亡原因才能夠去減少傷亡不是嗎而且那個每一個時"},{"start":3986.568,"end":4005.699,"text":"每一個可能時代是不太一樣的所以我們一直要做一直要做一直改善一直改善可是我們自殺已經是一直往上飆高交通事故今年也是沒有再下降我們的青少年的那樣子的一個交通事故並沒有再下降所以是不是應該明年要針對這一塊我們會更積極請委員放心"},{"start":4010.441,"end":4033.152,"text":"我希望不是分析喔我覺得要確實去執行最後就是10月9號我就執行過的特殊需求孩子不得已要到安置一個是緊急安置因為家暴的關係一個事實上是一般型安置可是你特殊需求的孩子的安置竟然安置在護理之家安置在不當的場所10月9號我就執行過期待你們能夠去執行"},{"start":4036.173,"end":4063.353,"text":"因為當時我就主張你一定要提出短中長期的計畫來對於特殊需求因為在民間那時候我就質疑這一塊那時候才144位就一進來之後你們反而更多變成174位那到現在還是沒有去改善結果你們的回文是這樣子所以我想問一下回文你的短中長期要這樣做沒有任何期程也沒有任何相關計畫而且明年也沒有看到任何編列預算的經費要去推展那我不知道"},{"start":4064.053,"end":4087.857,"text":"到底這10月30號回我的文到底回的是什麼報告委員我們短期是指今年中期是指大概明年上半年對那你明年也沒編列經費預算的話你怎麼讓特殊需求的孩子回到兒少安置機構而不是在護理之家在老人的長照的機構裡面在現有的預算裡面我們會把這些事情做好"},{"start":4088.934,"end":4089.395,"text":"主席有請部長委員長"},{"start":4118.308,"end":4137.106,"text":"我們看到我們前章基礎建設第5期有特別編列大概2億8千萬是補助地方政府辦理原住民主及離島地區衛生所的耐震補強評估跟補強工作那感謝我們召委蘇星群召委安排18號我去那馬下看了我們"},{"start":4139.159,"end":4165.767,"text":"衛生所所在地距離人民居住最遠的一個衛生所因為那個是他們在莫拉克15年前發生的時候因業廢時的把衛生所搬離了離人民所在的地方3.2公里而且是波度非常陡一般年輕人還要特殊技巧才可以開上去的用摩托車才能夠開上去那個衛生所然後如果是一般汽車的話大概十幾分鐘才會到達"},{"start":4166.874,"end":4191.938,"text":"那當然這經過10年他們希望能夠搬下來那我們召開的一個區長的一個召開的一個會決議希望能夠搬到現在原來的舊圖書館也就是說舊圖書館是堪用的大概是30年的一個建屋的一個年齡那希望衛福部能夠去參考他們在地的一個規劃然後去把他們實現他們的夢想好不好"},{"start":4192.338,"end":4207.598,"text":"好的因為當時謝謝蘇貞文安排考察那我們的次長也有參與那回來也有報告這類事情我們非常積極去瞭解那據瞭解是說也有人說那裡還是土石流方面"},{"start":4208.138,"end":4232.424,"text":"有,所以那天我有請水保來評估,他們認為...有有,我們會持續評估對,如果說他有持續做每年的輸進的話,那個地方是還是可以用的好,我們一定在...第二個就是需求就是洗腎室,因為那馬下距離最近的岐山醫院要大概一個半小時,到高雄要兩個半小時所以他當地的洗腎的人口大概24人"},{"start":4233.524,"end":4233.684,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4248.564,"end":4248.644,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4276.095,"end":4304.213,"text":"主導的角色來幫忙因為目前大概是停在土地的取得他現在大概是利用衛生所附近的周遭的土地然後變更以後看能不能籌建醫院因為目前蘭嶼的人口是5000多人那如果就一般的假日的話他可以湧入5000人一天就湧入5000人那7月份的旅客人數大概將近3萬人這樣一個旅島那個醫療需求是迫在眉睫"},{"start":4305.794,"end":4307.806,"text":"可以嗎你可以做一下你現在的想法嗎"},{"start":4310.262,"end":4336.592,"text":"林執行長相當清楚是不是委員謝謝那就是說委員非常關心蘭嶼這個我們的醫療的資源那當然15塊的15個土地的取得其實都已經透過部落會議在那邊在做整合那現在就是碰到就是我們要跟縣府那特別是對當地的醫療資源人力還有我們也碰到一個叫醫療法規設置標準那因為這個部分會牽涉到我們的"},{"start":4338.052,"end":4363.026,"text":"好那我希望我們林執政長能夠努力的把這件事情完成我有聽到一個消息說15年臺東可能會成立護理專班這護理專班的時候你能不能就蘭嶼的這個需求也劃進去把學生也納入他們的公費的一個培訓或者是偏遠地區比如說嚴平啊海端啊達人這些他的長照跟護理專班能夠一起來設置可以嗎都會包括一起來討論"},{"start":4363.826,"end":4392.387,"text":"我們特別註重這一點當然醫院的事情還很遠那我們先講現在他們的需求他們希望有一些非侵入性的醫療設備還有汰換衛生所的老舊才有的那個發電機第二個也就是強化他現在的後送機制希望他的直升機或者是定義機能夠是常駐在蘭嶼機場如果你發生一些緊急的事情的話他才可以馬上的來運送我們的傷患或者是病患"},{"start":4393.067,"end":4393.948,"text":"衛福部主導．經濟部．"},{"start":4414.926,"end":4444.447,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想你提的都是關心我們男女主人的關心我們會來努力先肯定目前衛福部對原住民平均移民的一個縮短的努力現在按照如果每10年縮短1歲的話我們確實是有達到我們現在這個平均移民是差了6.19歲講平均的話不過男性的話也是要加油在7.12歲這裡所以我們在去年有成立原住民主健康法公告了"},{"start":4444.827,"end":4473.077,"text":"那我們一直說要專責機構專責機構目前還是沒有目前是有原住民主健康政策會還有原住民主健康研究中心我希望這個都都在我們專責機構的一個下面也就是說他應該是附在那個組織裡面而不是你又再去找了一個原住民主健康中心原住民主健康政策會結果這些沒有辦法提供給衛福部適當的一些建議或者是政策的一個方向可以嗎"},{"start":4474.482,"end":4487.021,"text":"我想我們在謝謝我們在研議這個部分那個我相信我現在問你說原住民主健康中心提供哪些研究計畫是成果給你參考你你可以提的出來嗎應該還沒有吧"},{"start":4491.905,"end":4517.49,"text":"我會不會請國衛院來我去做這個謝謝我想要謝謝委員那我們原民的健康研究中心是在去年12月在部裡面的支持之下成立那我們自己院內做了系統性的這個整合那目前請的是我們的許惠恆許副院長他非常有經驗他過去在臺中總統臺北總統對我非常期待"},{"start":4519.391,"end":4519.991,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4541.189,"end":4568.828,"text":"中東歐國家畢業的醫學系或牙醫系學生可以到偏鄉及離島去完成醫療臨床實作的資格大多數只是為了拿到參加國考第二階段考試的資格罷了最終這些同學也大多不會留在原鄉或者是離島地區依然會留在都市地區病患人數較多且集中的地方本席要特別點名衛福部醫事師、口腔衛生師、健康師"},{"start":4569.668,"end":4569.788,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4591.025,"end":4607.819,"text":"會是更提高該本地區的健保點值去引導醫療資源的有效分配才是而不是利用優化邊鄉醫療經濟方案的錢去補助你們部立醫院辦理臨床實習解決撇撇留學生的臨床實作培訓"},{"start":4608.92,"end":4631.855,"text":"政府的請示要解決醫療資源欠缺醫生不願意去的原鄉及離島服務的問題而不是提供他們去實習然後去提取得資格去報考第二階段國考這是我看到偏鄉24億的那個優化的那個政策後面的含義希望部長能夠理解我的想法可不可以容我報告一下"},{"start":4633.536,"end":4653.624,"text":"我們偏鄉的一個計畫偏鄉醫療的計畫其實都一直在實行而且它是很多元化的那在去年覺得開始為何不接受到很多鄉鎮沒有牙醫師缺乏老人照顧其實很重要所以在後來就加進去在"},{"start":4654.884,"end":4671.13,"text":"盡量去補充偏鄉地去亞裔這個部亞裔的人力那這個計畫其實在今年的年初方面就已經核定那後來我們就任以後就是意見很多啦所以我們就"},{"start":4672.15,"end":4694.537,"text":"好好就把這個案先暫緩來討論所以目前是暫緩嗎現在說偏鄉計畫不能暫緩但是在牙醫的偏鄉牙醫的這部分我們現在就是政府現在的策略就是政策就是只有針對我現在再講清楚一點針對現在沒有牙醫師的55個鄉鎮"},{"start":4699.138,"end":4699.238,"text":"以本國醫師優先"},{"start":4712.261,"end":4715.783,"text":"現在就是就是這樣子我們不會讓這樣的一個計劃這麼好的一個計劃來補償變成大家爭議的我還是要告訴你的24億如果剛才那個補償"},{"start":4734.552,"end":4742.776,"text":"我希望是做整體的第一個一定要有醫師執照第二個我們現在是以本國醫師為優先所以也不會去實行什麼實習以後再去做那些"},{"start":4761.065,"end":4767.47,"text":"現在不會做這些事情所以我想請那個社會要了解啦我們這個衛福部絕對是站在維護人民健康為優先來解決這個長久的爭議同時希望能夠創造三眼讓偏鄉友醫師和牙醫師包括醫師嘛然後也大家能夠都能夠了解接受"},{"start":4785.742,"end":4787.823,"text":"關於偏鄉醫療經濟部份我希望我跟部長能夠有共識我們一起努力謝謝"},{"start":4811.637,"end":4820.263,"text":"謝謝盧憲毅委員等一下我質詢的時候這個問題我會深入跟你討論那接下來我們請陳清威委員質詢主席謝謝各位官員那就邱部長謝謝"},{"start":4840.253,"end":4861.007,"text":"委員好部長昨天我在財政委員會其實下午就發出這篇文章嘛在催上面的文章說除了勞動部昨天是矚目的焦點以外呢也有籍管署的同仁上網陳情那當時呢您說調查報告大概兩個月會出來"},{"start":4861.747,"end":4884.457,"text":"但昨天晚上行政院院長道歉並且規定大家要一週內完成調查報告的時候呢很晚的時候集管署又重新發了一個新聞稿說一週內會完成那這邊也想在這邊跟部長說其實勞動部最為人詬病的就是第一他的調查小組不夠公正不夠超然裡面很多就自己人"},{"start":4885.017,"end":4913.829,"text":"所以最後呢很多調查報告不管是在其他的單位或是在勞動部都不了了之變成一個壓力鍋的燜燒導致於有不幸的親身事件所以你有沒有辦法在這邊承諾因為昨天其實不瞞您說下午回去有人就打電話匿名電話進來然後又有寫簡訊的等一下會給你一封信的證本但我們都會一一的經過查證那也希望您可以審慎的處理您可以在這邊承諾"},{"start":4914.969,"end":4940.032,"text":"不要有這個要不要請外部的人或是公證超人的立場來成立所有衛福部相關的調查小組嗎我想我們一定按照規定來處理那時程因為大家關注所以我們把整個兩個月的時程縮成一個禮拜要來完成那這個裡面是相當的詳細是不是請機關署莊署長來報告一下"},{"start":4940.892,"end":4964.203,"text":"報告委員 因為本來規定是兩個月內 因為要做非常多的事情 比如說我們要延展外部的委員還有就進行匿名問卷的調查 根據調查結果 我們要去選取面談的對象 進行面談跟寫報告所以我們大概是用比較寬裕的時間 希望能夠把它完成但是你沒有選外部的人"},{"start":4964.363,"end":4965.484,"text":"我接下來就要告訴第二件事情"},{"start":4983.754,"end":5007.762,"text":"這邊是昨天呢下午有收到電話電話打進來澄清說請我們本辦公室要相信脆上面的留言因為他就是在疾管署其他單位工作的同仁那他是親眼看著這個組長曾經對著同仁罵豬啊等等的那再來呢昨天晚上好晚的時候又接到一封澄清信他是在講說"},{"start":5009.122,"end":5009.582,"text":"他說不只是這個組長"},{"start":5026.89,"end":5049.947,"text":"上刑下校庫立整備組組長是聯合底下的科長檢記集體的霸凌壓榨同仁逼的大家不得不離職掉職降調退休甚至請育嬰假等等的逃離現場不管是工作負荷量大身兼數職人力嚴重不足流動率過高入罵同仁能力差"},{"start":5050.567,"end":5050.767,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5077.128,"end":5079.752,"text":"部長來幫他們陳情陸陸續續一直都有email進來啊簡訊進來等等的"},{"start":5096.098,"end":5115.763,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛提到調查小組一定要公開透明再來昨天其實勞動部違反了一個很大的行政瑕疵中午的時候在這邊告訴我們說他要把分署長免職後來想一想又說可是他沒有這個權限必須要先召開懲戒委員會要召開這個調查會他才有辦法"},{"start":5116.903,"end":5143.878,"text":"搞了一個小時嘛考機會搞了一個小時他說他沒有這個權限後來院長出來道歉了以後晚上他又開始召開這個考機會馬上召開了三小時然後說喔好他要宣布他記兩個大過免職這是嚴重的違反行政瑕疵更慘的是最後這位分署長的律師信就出來了他的律師信是告訴大家說根據我們勞動部的調查報告啊他沒有"},{"start":5145.21,"end":5174.27,"text":"這個直接霸凌的事實但他有霸凌這位不幸往生者的主管然後最後他的律師居然是用勞動部的報告來幫他辯護所以這一點我也希望您之後在處理衛福部的時候可以借勁勞動部千萬要公正超然第二不能有任何的行政瑕疵好嗎你有沒有什麼方向可以告訴我們說一周的調查報告出來以後您大概多久要召開這個考機會因為算一算"},{"start":5175.052,"end":5178.647,"text":"10月28號您應該就會有疾管署的初步報告出來了"},{"start":5180.526,"end":5206.916,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教我非常清楚我再重申我們不容許有任何職場的霸凌所以只要有任何相關的信息我們一定嚴加調查嚴加辦理我想這是那個一定這是最大的原則而且所有相關的部門如果是哪個部門像機關署我們要求最快的適度那後續所以你的考機會你考機會"},{"start":5208.917,"end":5222.669,"text":"就是我們預定下禮拜四會有報告啦那我們會盡量在當天看是不是可以就舉辦考試好那今天也請您參考一下這個陳秦涵因為不只是組長一個人好下一個想要請這個石署長"},{"start":5226.707,"end":5256.39,"text":"這是近期內許多人民關心的議題因為石署長因為邱部長曾經在之前新聞的採訪說到兩年是部長見保費要用三支劍拼改革但是石署長在最近又公開的說在研擬補充保費的三項調整與一般保費來做溝通並且說針對六大類比如說許許多多很辛苦在爭取獎金的這些壽星階級他要分別制定不同的"},{"start":5256.51,"end":5256.89,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":5287.051,"end":5305.108,"text":"可以給大家一個進程嗎?為什麼會有這樣子不同調的出現?報告委員我想沒有不同調所謂的部長保惠就是我們那個惠利一般保惠啦一般保惠因為這個比較影響層面比較大那至於調整"},{"start":5306.289,"end":5324.368,"text":"補充保費這件事情一直都是我們的策略之一那現在健保署提出一個很可是調整補充保費您要修健保法所以您是意思是說您要左手開始修健保法嗎我們現在都演你我是不是請署署長報告一下"},{"start":5324.788,"end":5340.557,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前健保法的規定那麼補充保費的調漲是跟隨一般保費的費率調動的他是連動而且在補充保費裡面有6項的補充保費費率一樣那這個確實你要把它6項分不同的費率"},{"start":5340.677,"end":5365.46,"text":"所以我們現在研議說是不是應該要脫鉤處理因為這6項補充保費的本質還是有差異有些是比較偏向資本利得有些是勞務所得那目前的話是都綁在一起的那同時它的調動也要跟著一般保費費率調整的時候才能夠調整所以這個我們是希望您是預計什麼時候要開始著手修這個健保法"},{"start":5365.84,"end":5381.217,"text":"目前都內部都已經在研議這個修法的方向那到一個階段會再跟外界做溝通之後再進入到修法的所以你的意思是說等你們調整完以後大概也就是部長講的兩年內啦所以大概是兩年後啊也需要一點時間"},{"start":5382.438,"end":5394.165,"text":"那我們會再繼續跟你一起研擬這件事情那最後一題最後一題是想問說邱部長今天你有列在公務預算中用醫政業務這個執行的韌性國家醫療整備計畫看起來是114年編列了17.52"},{"start":5401.63,"end":5430.289,"text":"總數其實是4年啊他是從113年連續4年總數是76.6億那我們不管是透過電話詢問或是詢問主計總處等等的都說是不能公開的一個機密那如果是機密的話我也想請您稍微講一下是你們採購合約的機密還是機密的預算還是涉及機密的事項因為我們對於你這個任性國家醫療準備計畫是一無所知"},{"start":5431.59,"end":5459.693,"text":"好謝謝那我是不是先請醫事師回答一下這個任性醫療國家的計畫其實是主要是針對大型或特殊災難事件的時候我們重新檢視過我們自己的應變的量能從921之後其實剛開始是天然災害可是隨著極端氣候然後甚至是說我們看到的那個天然災害也變得嚴峻加劇了所以在這個地方上面做一個強化"},{"start":5460.213,"end":5475.623,"text":"您說天然災害但是你很快的113就開始招標你在招標的上面是寫因應複合式災難還有全球軌跡多變的局勢未來台海衝突事件以及不可預期的災難災害必須加強戰場的災難醫療整備這個是你們招標的對於這個計畫講的"},{"start":5484.448,"end":5505.04,"text":"對 因為就是說所有的應變裡面其實這幾個都是我們過去比較沒有經驗的所以您的意思是說在113 114之前您覺得我們國家醫療韌性對於戰爭的支撐比較短那經過這個計畫你們想要再把它拉長讓我們韌性再更久一點"},{"start":5505.8,"end":5517.065,"text":"不是是我們所有對創傷這一塊的處理的量能然後跟經驗其實相對上面都需要做提升所以才會是說這個我們寫的是一個最嚴重的可能會是戰爭可是對於就是說我們看到了極端氣候產生的包括了"},{"start":5525.269,"end":5525.289,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5555.51,"end":5570.687,"text":"他們還是把它一項一項的寫出來了對 所以環境部那邊的話其實是透過最近其實像COP29就在講的是氣候調節的這一塊增加體系的韌性不是不是 他們內容其實也跟你們差不多"},{"start":5571.689,"end":5571.709,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":5586.65,"end":5587.11,"text":"委員指教"},{"start":5613.632,"end":5630.481,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請王一鳴委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們是不是有請邱部長委員長"},{"start":5637.557,"end":5643.9,"text":"部長好首先我要問你有關於食安的問題部長你有在吃薑黃粉嗎你有吃咖哩嗎我很喜歡吃咖哩很喜歡吃咖哩我要跟你講的就是我們蘇丹紅的食安問題報不完從辣椒粉到咖哩粉到現在最新的是薑黃粉"},{"start":5662.571,"end":5684.563,"text":"一直都出現問題完全都沒有在市面上蘇丹紅沒有在市面上完全消失11月4號我才質詢有關於咖哩粉的事件然後你們才去查查了這個薑黃粉的業者然後查了22家現在爆發出來德和公司的薑黃粉有蘇丹紅"},{"start":5686.144,"end":5704.066,"text":"一萬公斤已經售出五千七百多公斤．你們下架回收的才一千八百六十一公斤．很多人都吃下肚了．你們現在的查法就是委員報到哪裡．你們才查到哪裡都沒有超前部署"},{"start":5705.628,"end":5722.558,"text":"這個薑黃粉現在有非常多的長輩他們覺得是很好的養生食品所以都買這種大瓶的回來加在飯裡面或者是沖泡來喝他覺得吃越多越健康是養生的"},{"start":5723.098,"end":5738.285,"text":"所以越是這樣子的一個標榜養生的食品你就應該要更仔細的把關啊但是到目前為止你們現在薑黃粉你們去查的是印度的公司進口"},{"start":5739.164,"end":5763.382,"text":"對不對你們現在邊境姜黃粉你們目標對象是印度但是你看看這個報關資料只有印度進口姜黃粉嗎沒有喔目前包括越南中國馬來西亞印尼西班牙斯里蘭卡我們所看到的報關資料這6個國家也都有進口姜黃粉"},{"start":5764.102,"end":5781.329,"text":"那你們之前因為印度的出問題你們就只監控印度那現在越南變成是最大宗我就問你那越南進口的薑黃粉你能確保他的品質是100%沒有問題你們有逐批查驗嗎有或沒有"},{"start":5782.691,"end":5797.392,"text":"包委員我們當然印度的從這一年來就前面監視查驗蘇丹紅我問你越南現在有沒有監視我不是請莊署長回答一下有嗎我看是沒有吧"},{"start":5800.557,"end":5824.805,"text":"報告委員剛剛委員有提醒我們其實上次那個查到第一剛開始薑黃出問題的時候是因為那個特調咖啡特調咖哩粉然後後來我們去清查它裡面的所有原料才發現是薑黃粉那薑黃的時候跟委員特別報告一件事情是我們那天查出來以後我們就回溯了3年之內所有進來的印度的薑黃粉"},{"start":5825.845,"end":5846.646,"text":"然後我們查了22批中間只有一批實際上是出現問題所以我們就開始回溯他們的這些東西對我現在問你就是你回溯的是印度那越南現在又變成你的大宗從10月份的資料看起來越南比印度進口的還要多那請問越南你們就只監控印度越南你們現在有去抽驗嗎越南的有沒有問題"},{"start":5848.927,"end":5877.906,"text":"我們現在同仁正在確定我們現在如果如果他現在進來的時候我們都會開始加強抽菸批先從會從後市長這邊開始查起所以你現在還沒有掌握嗎好我就是要提醒你們就是不要委員問一件事情你們查一件你們應該要有全面性的這樣子去監控跟整頓我要再次強調目前薑黃粉是很夯的這個對於老人家來講他認為在保健方面他們是很相信的"},{"start":5878.266,"end":5899.347,"text":"所以他不應該再去添加不必要的添加包括蘇丹紅在裡面你知道才能確保這一些長者很重視養生人的健康我要求的是你們應該要全面像這樣子的一個產品你已經有查出第一批你就應該要全面性的這些進口的來源你通通都要查清楚要嚴格的把關做不做得到"},{"start":5899.747,"end":5928.156,"text":"做得到報告委員我們現在現在會列多少所有的薑黃粉不同不管哪一國進口我們現在已經全力列入監視查驗好全面的去監視查驗我們要確保這個是大家吃的是沒有問題的接下來我要問有關於這個輸液的問題這個部長我讓你看一張很誇張的班表這個是某一家藥廠他9月份跟地方政府提出來他的加班需求"},{"start":5929.757,"end":5956.317,"text":"這當中你知道嗎我看到最驚悚的是有人加班時數要高達150.5到160小時他跟地方政府申請他有員工需要加班150到160小時有一個人是這樣子超過100人的總共有6個人你知道一個勞工如果加班超過150小時是什麼概念嗎"},{"start":5957.037,"end":5971.9,"text":"每天工作要長達12個小時加上週休二日都不要休都要上班是這樣的狀態就等於他變成機器人就是整整一個月都不能休息的狀態"},{"start":5973.407,"end":5997.372,"text":"你有掌握嗎有藥廠9月份跟地方政府申報他需要的是勞工這麼過勞超時的加班來趕輸液但是你們對外說輸液通通夠沒有問題但是有藥廠是用這樣子的方式在幫忙趕工而這個是你們自己去要求勞動部幫你們解套"},{"start":5998.132,"end":6001.833,"text":"請勞動部放寬條件運用的是在這種天災事變突發事件勞基法第32條第4項跟第40條的特殊加班幫你們開一個後門讓藥廠可以打破天花板然後要求勞工不斷加班只為了趕你們的輸益"},{"start":6024.341,"end":6040.066,"text":"那你們對外又宣稱說輸液是夠的但是有藥廠提出這麼誇張的一個加班時數這個到底是為什麼部長你有掌握嗎其實這整個過程我們相關的部門都非常的努力我也都有掌握狀況那我們當然嚴格的就是說加班只能"},{"start":6044.697,"end":6066.41,"text":"為了人工輸液我們當然就是一定要在勞動部合可的情況之下這是我們基本的要求自己說這樣的一個努力之下的確是度過了一個困難的艱苦的一個時期雖然現在的使用上有些醫療驗手還是因為包裝大小的問題"},{"start":6068.051,"end":6076.136,"text":"還是有一些困擾但是至少量方面是夠的啦那至於說是不是有這樣的掌握我們超過這麼多是不是莊市長有沒有"},{"start":6077.661,"end":6100.375,"text":"這個有啊這個我調到資料就是這樣報告委員這一次因為那個輸液的問題我們請那個臺灣的那個生產的藥廠加班那這件事情我們也請勞委會勞動部同意加班但是我們那個整個文來的時候我們是希望他在符合勞基法的要求之下那這幾家的他特使操作加班這個"},{"start":6101.195,"end":6126.722,"text":"我們那時候是因為勞動部下去做勞檢的時候發現他們的時數過高那現在才開始裁罰那其他的因為這次所有的加班的時數其實我們那時候都有跟廠商講希望他還是符合勞基法的情況之下那你要符合勞基法你就不應該去運用天災事變突發事件這一條啊你知道這一條是太上皇條款你只要運用了之後他是沒有上限的"},{"start":6128.513,"end":6136.187,"text":"那所謂你們的上限你們希望符合勞基法是多少按照現行勞基法最高一個月如果工會同意的話才到54小時"},{"start":6138.786,"end":6164.311,"text":"那你們這一個你們用的是天災事變所以是等於是沒有天花板當然就會變成是這個樣子啊所以你們勞動部難死其救啊你們造成是基層的這一些藥廠的勞工過勞的一個情況而你們通通都沒有把關他們這麼的辛勞就是為了應付你們輸液的問題當時的一個處置不大你們後知後覺9月份這個頒表你有看過嗎你們知道嗎"},{"start":6167.967,"end":6175.732,"text":"也渾然不知你還說你們有監督那你們根本我要求你們去看實際的狀況我只關心這一個勞工一個月150小時以上的加班他現在人還好嗎有沒有爆肝你們作為衛福部好好去關心一下我們馬上來關心來瞭解"},{"start":6188.221,"end":6204.761,"text":"對啊 這個就是一個非常誇張嘛但是一切都是因你們而起嘛你們輸液就是缺乏然後你們又讓勞動部去發了一個文而且還持續到10月31號你們當時發出的文它可以運用突破勞基法的這一個第32條第4項第40條"},{"start":6207.684,"end":6212.329,"text":"還到10月31號所以這當中我要你們去回溯去關照到底有多少勞工在這個過程其實是爆肝的幫你們去趕輸液看你們要怎麼去去這個勞工你們他的身體健康你們衛福部好好去關照一下我覺得這個問題其實是蠻誇張的另外一個"},{"start":6226.483,"end":6249.102,"text":"既然輸液問題已經解決了你們現在在預算裡面輸液的預算從2.5億要暴增到11億為什麼你們說現在輸液已經沒有問題了9月永豐也已經開始恢復供應了那為什麼你還要暴增11億你這個是要打算要大量還必須從國外進口嗎你們原來只需要2.5億為什麼暴增"},{"start":6253.15,"end":6281.053,"text":"我想這有兩個原因就是因為我們當然沒辦法完全掌握到國內或國外進口這個量的一個數目第二個就是我們必須因為過去的價錢的確是太低那經過供應會議還是討論調整嘛調整了以後就會那個預算當然就會那我就問你我們現在國內供應輸入的量到底夠不夠嗎"},{"start":6284.928,"end":6306.556,"text":"你們對外都說夠那我就問你到底現在足不足夠應該還是有穩定的一個國外的輸入加上國內的那我們一直在輔導國內的趕快恢復所以現在即使永豐加入生產之後也還不夠他還沒有量產現在已經11月了還不夠"},{"start":6309.62,"end":6326.582,"text":"跟委員報告目前還是需要仰賴那個專案輸入到目前為止還是這樣那能夠供應到這個第一線的使用還沒有辦法完全有國內國產像過去都是國產供應沒有這個專案輸入現在還仍然需要專案輸入"},{"start":6327.654,"end":6340.623,"text":"好如果是這樣子的話這一筆預算我會嚴格監督喔因為你們從今年最迫切需要是2.5億那你明年照道理來講我們國產的應該加入不需要那麼大的量結果你還暴增經費變成11億顯然這個是有浮邊的嫌疑喔"},{"start":6344.606,"end":6363.655,"text":"這個我們一定會嚴格把關喔最後我要提醒部長的就是不可以因為你的趕工去壓迫這些藥廠基層的勞工甚至讓他爆肝我看到這種超過100小時的加班我覺得是不可思議而如果你們都沒有出面去處理我覺得這個就是失職"},{"start":6364.555,"end":6389.542,"text":"我們會出面處理我跟委員再報告一下那個11億那個原來其實是在健保裡面那因為政府體諒到說讓健保不要太壓力太大所以才特別讓11億變成公務預算但這是輸液啊對就是輸液這件事情所以你原本輸液就需要11億嗎原來我們11億是要在健保的總額裡面到預算的時候我們會再來填好這個要先說清楚"},{"start":6390.362,"end":6406.589,"text":"然後政府先生很好意就是想說不要就是播出那個我沒有意見但是如果你過度去膨脹你的輸液進口的這個預算我有意見我想那個所有的價錢都一定經過供你會議的專家大家同意我們預算的時候會嚴格來監督謝謝"},{"start":6413.117,"end":6437.484,"text":"好謝謝黃委員那接下來我們請邱振興委員質詢那我們在林淑芬委員花園完畢後休息10分鐘好主席好我們還是有請我們的邱部長委員好部長好"},{"start":6440.005,"end":6461.019,"text":"這個昨天勞動部勞動力發展署北分署霸凌的事情昨天河北山部長辭職負責但今天又傳出我剛剛看了很多委員也在提這個案子就是機管署某組長也有霸凌的同仁的情形情況與謝宜龍的狀況非常相同你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":6465.689,"end":6467.671,"text":"為什麼要改?你為什麼要改我的指令?為什麼要改?"},{"start":6491.574,"end":6510.71,"text":"他其實已經有他原本就已經你寫的可以嗎你有這個時間嗎我會這樣做我是神經病嗎你沒有去開幾組的會你怎麼看做指令下次我不要跟你們開會了什麼意思"},{"start":6517.363,"end":6517.663,"text":"好,部長這您聽一下,這聲音你認得嗎?"},{"start":6537.315,"end":6539.737,"text":"你會不會依照勞動部來處理?"},{"start":6554.059,"end":6557.482,"text":"一定會啊,我們已經馬上啟動調查我們一個禮拜內會有調查,這個莊署長剛剛已經有我請部長要加快啦,因為我認識部長也沒有多久我希望你能夠留下來好不好"},{"start":6570.231,"end":6594.241,"text":"我們一定不容許有職場霸凌的現象這跟個人不是個人的問題是說整個國家就應該要這樣子我們才是一個幸福好啦那我們就回到今天的主要的議題那昨天本土小牙醫聯盟跟海外牙醫的家長在高等法院外面為了你吵架你知道嗎"},{"start":6596.413,"end":6600.298,"text":"報告委員跟我應該我只是代表在把過去長期的爭議"},{"start":6606.249,"end":6625.42,"text":"然後到我這階段我當然是用最大的誠意最大的努力來解決一直以來我們台灣社會對於撥撥醫生不只是牙醫的部分直接一點就是說拿錢去波蘭醫學店洗學歷之後回來考照的醫生大家普遍都會覺得害怕"},{"start":6626.3,"end":6643.523,"text":"那部長你認為臺灣人民的健康守護者還是波波醫生的你認為你是臺灣人民健康的守護者還是波波醫生的守門員你的立場跟態度是什麼我必須要再重申我完全沒有特定的對哪一個"},{"start":6644.404,"end":6660.22,"text":"群組的一個部長那你可不同意中間有非常非常多的我也不曉得包括111年6月我們在這邊用心的來通過一個議事法的修法那個是我前程在這邊讓他那個法通過"},{"start":6661.141,"end":6661.301,"text":"好的醫療品質"},{"start":6684.565,"end":6696.223,"text":"有嚴格的教育養成我相信部長也認同吧那台灣的醫生的養成跟波蘭醫生的養成哪一個更嚴謹你覺得雖然我們有修法的沒有錯"},{"start":6699.386,"end":6727.908,"text":"但你覺得臺灣的臺灣的比較嚴謹還是國外的比較嚴謹我們所有讓他在臺灣行醫的醫師不管他從哪個醫學院畢業我們基本要求都要讓他有有有品質能夠照顧人民的健康這是基本要求那至於說要比較良因為我我家裡的第二代齁那個也很多人當醫師年輕了一輩有11個11億個當練醫學系通通是本土醫"},{"start":6729.74,"end":6748.111,"text":"所以我沒有立場去特別要支持我們來討論一下啦就是醫生的考試我一個臺大的醫學院的老師我當然覺得我們臺灣的品質非常的嚴謹我們的教育品質非常的嚴謹那我們來討論一下醫生的考試111年你剛剛講的修了醫師法第四之一條從112年開始用國外學歷參加考試"},{"start":6756.196,"end":6782.036,"text":"要先經過教育部學歷徵試通過才能參加醫師考試那國內要念醫學院門檻本來就比較高一點通常念到大三大四就會參加第一階段的國考那經過實習之後畢業後再考第二階段的國考才有考試及格證書號申請到衛福部的醫師證書之後才能夠算一個合格的醫師這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":6786.193,"end":6810.338,"text":"但是現在的問題裡面就是事之一裡面也有說兩個條件不用經過教育部學歷增試通過第一個就是在當地取得合法資格且實際執行臨床業務5年以上第二個112年12月31日前入學的也不用現在的問題是怎麼確認他在當地實際這個臨床服務這個業務5年以上"},{"start":6815.322,"end":6830.506,"text":"還有一千多名的波波醫生不用不適用心法你們準備讓這些一千多位這個波波醫生快速通關嗎好我想這個醫事師師長很清楚是可不可以請他回報告跟大家報告"},{"start":6831.124,"end":6858.914,"text":"委員好對於就是說在這個考試制度的把關的部分的話過去在還沒修法之前是一個裁認的原則所以其實對於就是說我們把裁認原則修在議事法實行細則這也近日快要將要公佈所以才會是說在把關的部分其實不裡面這邊我們的方向程度之前部長就對外宣誓的是說其實我們本來就是採取嚴格的方式來做處理"},{"start":6859.914,"end":6887.076,"text":"我覺得這樣子啦就是舊法不是用學歷來徵是不用學歷來徵試那他們就應該用106年頒布的學歷認證去共識去認證我覺得是這樣不管用新法還是舊法都應該有兩道門檻我覺得應該這樣子會比較嚴謹那我也看到我們這個在當初我們修醫師法的時候民進黨委員一共通過七個附帶決議"},{"start":6888.357,"end":6900.488,"text":"那其中有5個部長都是連署人有一個提案其中有一個提案就是我們波波媽的委員部長還記得連署什麼嗎因為我全程在"},{"start":6902.324,"end":6924.231,"text":"互代決議是提供多元化的一個意見我想大家委員都很清楚那我當然就是要三個委員才能成案所以我們當然是說如果有意見就提出來會議討論要到成案我只是連署讓他這個意見可以來討論而已我並沒有去提案"},{"start":6925.291,"end":6928.333,"text":"但我發現我們現在有一個優化偏鄉醫療的計畫我怎麼看都感覺到你這個跟這個就是為了撥撥牙醫開的一個很順暢因為這個優化偏鄉其實是長久的事情"},{"start":6943.743,"end":6958.913,"text":"那委員可能看到就是有關於牙醫這個部分其實他其他部分是非常多要做的包括醫療轉後送等加強量能那這個部分我們政府經過這段時間的討論已經在這裡面上禮拜重申我想總統也有提到每年不會超過50名第一個每年50名那個結論不會提高"},{"start":6972.821,"end":6997.651,"text":"我們一定按照112年6月通過的醫師法的修法去嚴格執行那第三個就是有關於偏鄉計畫的話我們在牙醫只限你55個沒有牙醫師的鄉鎮因為他們那個地方的確真的是需要你現在提到我們預算是不是要調整因為預算來處理這個"},{"start":6999.281,"end":7000.362,"text":"這些偏鄉本來醫療資源就比較少"},{"start":7026.061,"end":7041.887,"text":"那我不希望我們部裡面拿這些偏鄉的我們的這個國人來當實驗的一個地方讓我們這些伯伯牙醫能夠順利的拿到這個醫師執照我希望衛福部能夠更嚴謹的來看守這樣可以嗎我們這個計畫會做調整"},{"start":7044.008,"end":7062.023,"text":"那另外我們苗栗這個9個衛生所也非常缺醫生那真的這個醫生也非常的不足非常需要部裡面的資源請部長多多協助也希望我們會跟縣政府這邊來一起來討論看怎麼一起來解決好的謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長包委員會我們在抒情前執行完後休息10分鐘"},{"start":7079.953,"end":7092.142,"text":"接下來我們請朱新泉委員謝謝 謝謝前委員部長還有醫事司長還有口腔師司長部長辛苦了我看你在回答問題非常小心非常好我昨天問那個勞動部部長"},{"start":7109.961,"end":7121.165,"text":"昨天就任滿半年昨天11月12日你自己打幾分我從來不會為自己打分次我只知道要繼續努力這樣子"},{"start":7129.744,"end":7154.863,"text":"你也知道衛福部很忙的,忙到沒什麼忙衛福部加大越大,人又那麼多部立醫院就只有所屬,怕死人太多所以不會出事我才奇怪出事才剛剛好而已所以我還是跟大家一起戰戰兢兢那我現在今天要跟你延續講這個"},{"start":7156.984,"end":7182.692,"text":"國外醫師啦我們不要講波波啦講波波有點鄙視還有看不起人家我深深的不油然我今天在這邊很震動的講我不偏袒本土的牙醫啦還有波波回來的牙醫講這樣是很難聽這個問題是從馬英九時代到現在都一直延續那我現在請問你一個問題你們去年修改"},{"start":7183.992,"end":7194.462,"text":"醫療法之後那今年出去念書的念醫學跟牙醫他們要報備嗎有沒有減少不用報備"},{"start":7195.994,"end":7213.151,"text":"補充一下因為就學是個人自由所以這個地方是不用報備是回來考試的時候申請這邊會從那個考選部跟教育部這邊學歷認證這邊到底有沒有問題可不可以考試是從那邊開始有資料以上"},{"start":7213.892,"end":7239.702,"text":"所以你沒有在關 你要去哪裡不管就對了但是從今年入學的我跟大家報告從今年入學到國安院醫生回來都必須要考鑑定考試鑑定考試及格力鑑定對Pretest不管你是從九大地區從美國英國回來都要嘛那我是覺得台灣有點開倒車啦"},{"start":7241.653,"end":7260.808,"text":"以前在馬英九時代是九大地區回來的不用考pre-test直接可以考第一階段Part 1嘛對不對啊Part 1考過之後就可以當實習實習一年之後再臨床醫學考過OSCE考過就可以考Part 2嘛"},{"start":7261.67,"end":7268.093,"text":"趴住之後就拿到醫師證書就進入PGY現在兩年以後做過全年醫師全年律師隊部長也做過管道要比較高全世界的議員這麼多以前九大地區的時候是包括歐盟"},{"start":7286.909,"end":7293.673,"text":"包括歐盟那舊的歐盟是有15個國家後來有新的歐盟加進去像"},{"start":7294.827,"end":7323.337,"text":"波蘭、匈牙利、羅馬尼亞、保加利亞、加勁、捷克等等有10個國家所以現在才有15加10有25個國家那我們不能認定什麼舊歐盟跟新歐盟歐盟是一體的所以才搞成現在這個問題嘛不然這樣就對了阿中華民國的國民只要他中華民國籍他就要受憲法的保障"},{"start":7324.568,"end":7347.447,"text":"他因為婚姻遷徙或者是父母親我認識的很多外交官很多那個外貿協會的他們父母親派出在國外啊 孩子就一定在那裡讀書啊啊 帶他回來他如果有讀什麼學他回來可不可以說他如果在法律學要回來課就輸你可不可以不要去課"},{"start":7348.368,"end":7349.189,"text":"臺灣的本土的醫生畢業的當然很強啊因為"},{"start":7375.663,"end":7399.707,"text":"大家都這樣說過來,很累但是,有沒有你就是世界第一名不是耶我在考選部那邊也當過委員那個國外,像美國紐約大學回來的牙醫系的他想回來我看他的學歷、成績非常好啊這種不能讓他回來也限制他不能實習胡說八道所以我們講事情要講,大家聽得下去"},{"start":7404.946,"end":7412.953,"text":"你也只剝剝剝剝,一天到晚都剝剝,這樣被人鄙視,獵巫,說不值一提,禮拜天又要遊行,然後我們黨團一直表演表示意見,我們,我也沒有在這邊,也沒有在那邊,我們比較公正,我們酒酥冷酥嘛,對不對,那你回來的,"},{"start":7427.635,"end":7446.155,"text":"從今年在國外不管你是在美國在英國在哪裡你念醫學院醫學系回來台灣都要考鑑定考試嘛PRE-TEST是很難過的呢及格率我看還沒有到10%喔有一年我給他查才6%啊牙醫是6%嗎牙醫是6%嘛那很夭壽我告訴你齁"},{"start":7450.762,"end":7463.247,"text":"好啦那今天這樣也是唸了然後回來趴萬也考過了然後現在在那邊等待實習然後你就說我一定要一年只能50個我前幾天到離港有一個在賣牛肉麵的阿嬤桑 她女兒就是去波蘭塔亞裔回來結果也趴萬課過了"},{"start":7477.022,"end":7480.523,"text":"所以說那波蘭那波蘭特赤都好惹人好笑 錯啦 不一定是這樣那小孩子有意願 媽媽就站在那裡去託 要考過囉我說你現在在幹嘛 他說現在在賣化妝品我說怎麼了 他說在等啊 等實習啊我說你要等多久 他說他算成要等8年"},{"start":7504.546,"end":7517.301,"text":"請你備你所以這個也沒道理啦所以這個是人家考過在那邊等待實習的那你把他踐踏把他汙名化然後讓他不能實習"},{"start":7519.045,"end":7536.963,"text":"部長阿你要怎麼說你也很小心要回答阿我想這個都有歷史的一個演變阿我想剛剛召委真的我已經非常了解到整個脈動阿那我們都是在解決這些長期的爭議那當然以大家的"},{"start":7538.751,"end":7549.975,"text":"我想國際牙醫這邊當然是不滿意50名非常的限額那我們的本土牙醫這邊當然是覺得希望降低我想這個一直多年來一直在爭議這個問題我講兩個例子"},{"start":7553.656,"end":7568.538,"text":"我們馬來西亞的臺灣人喔欸 華僑回來臺灣念書念高雄醫學院念完在我們醫院在長庚然後到長衛科專科醫師然後帶娶臺灣老婆回到馬來西亞"},{"start":7570.22,"end":7579.473,"text":"當然這在台灣唸書也是國外嘛馬來西亞就承認台灣的意識之道 免課但是這條路你要去偏鄉給他六年所以他就乖乖的從某處走到東馬"},{"start":7586.503,"end":7610.098,"text":"去沙羅園 去端麥 去做醫生 現在正在做 現在做第三年他覺得放棄臺灣的常委和專科醫師 臺文也不錯他照顧他 一直去 他更加有前途 去發展所以各國的 不一樣的平和制度 考試制度 或者是認定制度 我們都尊重"},{"start":7611.301,"end":7626.974,"text":"所以不同的國家的認定方式我們自己有自己的方法這個在當市長的時候你們都通過了嘛市長的時候另外一個我講更嚴肅的我們的中醫市長以前中醫"},{"start":7632.413,"end":7653.357,"text":"中醫師沒考的時候中醫師是用特考捏特考是什麼意思我們年輕人可能都忘光了搞不好你們要出生啦中醫師可以去考檢定考試考完檢定考試就等於是高等檢定考試考過之後你就有資格去考中醫師特考結果呢會念書都考得上欸 那種會有幾個中醫特考會有幾個幾千個"},{"start":7665.458,"end":7681.703,"text":"中醫特考過的人數目前大概是佔整個中醫職業人數的4成多4成多 聽好 以前更多還要扣到都什麼種的 書磚壁咬不下 或是軍裝壁咬不下因為他那要背 要托 背到要死 中醫的東西 要我托不下來 這樣扣過"},{"start":7690.932,"end":7701.335,"text":"課過後他課高等檢定考試課過後他就課中醫特考課過後他就中醫書了喔對不對那十尊比較的老師都教他讀書喔這樣他真的要做中醫書請問他的醫學的訓練夠嗎"},{"start":7707.799,"end":7735.736,"text":"所以我們中醫中醫衛生部才把他們一個一個都找去中國醫藥大學去專門做醫師養成教育基礎醫學上都在幫忙這個就是時代的產物那現在呢要考沒有中醫特考了對不起現在只有中醫系政科的才可以考對不對這樣對不對是是是所以中藥三也一樣頂頂所以我是覺得這一件事情"},{"start":7736.476,"end":7758.097,"text":"國際議員議員"},{"start":7758.652,"end":7765.195,"text":"在排隊的6、4、56、8幾個6、4、5排隊的6、8幾個要怎麼解決你也不能幫6、9所以是一個高難度的問題連總統也要怕死賴總統你本身是好意思的"},{"start":7776.909,"end":7779.752,"text":"臺灣的護衛醫系還是臺灣的護衛醫系獲得到國外訓因為婚姻遷徙什麼什麼什麼一大堆因素我不知道啦"},{"start":7798.189,"end":7810.315,"text":"反正只要他們有學歷回來,我們就要面對啦,就全部排斥,我不為誰啦,但是我們還是要解決問題啦"},{"start":7812.335,"end":7838.629,"text":"我們會勇於面對勇於認罪勇於面對勇於面對這樣的長久下來的一個這就是我們政府跟專業團體的責任因為希望真的在提供民眾最好的一個醫療品質跟環境以外怎麼樣解決長期的紛爭如果舊的問題我們是不是用更好的方法更新的方法來解決"},{"start":7840.551,"end":7857.753,"text":"其實這一段期間我們也跟本土小孩做了最公開坦誠的一個互動也修改了它的內容所以譬如說偏鄉者現在就不會去做任何實習的這個部分這個有一點違反剛剛蘇昭偉所提的"},{"start":7858.615,"end":7874.769,"text":"一個那個但是沒辦法因為這個這個我們為了減少爭議趕快大家好好的去洗衣去行衣那個不要讓讓社會更加的平和民眾需要的是我們大家的照顧偏鄉需要的是好的醫師願意下去照顧他們"},{"start":7875.976,"end":7891.338,"text":"我最後講一個就是你今年開始全世界不管先進國家中等國家或怎麼樣這些醫學院的學生要來台灣畢業要來考台灣的證照都必須要考鑑定考"},{"start":7892.139,"end":7905.917,"text":"而且鑑定考試很難考我不曉得臺灣接下來這樣是會進步還是會退步你只有全部都是本土的本土的美國的也回不來英國的也回不來這樣不好進行結婚"},{"start":7910.761,"end":7938.257,"text":"報告委員其實像我們仿照美國好了美國的那種國際學程很多有名的大學也是有國際學程但是他們的訓練是蠻扎實我們台灣的醫學院畢業也是要進入國際學程經過一個嚴格的訓練然後也可以考照那這個percentage大概也差不多是我們現在8%左右8到10%所以這個50個名額其實是看起來是以國際比較起來是還算合理"},{"start":7939.137,"end":7953.434,"text":"因為國際像美國的名大學也都是大概這個percentage最後我跟大家報告這個因為我有去研究美國的本土的美國人要簽他們的議案他也沒有在外面簽約的簽不對了喔有推掉喔"},{"start":7958.683,"end":7965.186,"text":"全無料他就去加拿大選 選議員或是美國的屬地波多黎各 格羅納達因美國的議員會去他設婚校美國人就直接跑到那邊去念那念是不是比照美國的學歷那當然啊因為他有一段時間實習是回美國那是美國的屬地"},{"start":7984.056,"end":8012.507,"text":"再申請不到的就跑到波蘭東歐去所以他們也會開一個英文班的專班那是要迎合美國這麼大的核心要去的我們台灣人去那邊是在教育的隨班戶讀的全程英文教學所以你說那些人到西班牙到哪裡去念的醫生去那邊受訓很差很差很差"},{"start":8013.467,"end":8036.944,"text":"不要這樣講啦不過站在我們一起維護的人民的醫療品質我們還是會從嚴來審查他的學歷以及相關的考試我們一定是從嚴來保障品質也當然謝謝委員的很多寶貴的指教好 部長加油謝謝好 謝謝我們蘇新前委員接下來我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":8046.772,"end":8047.673,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8076.418,"end":8077.58,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8098.073,"end":8099.174,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8805.455,"end":8808.377,"text":"好我們繼續開會我們請林淑雯委員質詢好謝謝主席我們是不是還是請邱部長部長請委員好"},{"start":8831.368,"end":8844.437,"text":"部長好這個職場霸凌的這個案件鬧得沸沸揚揚的那因為我們集團署也被爆料那我首先要先在這裡跟大家講根據111人力銀行的這個調查報告職場霸凌裡面的產業別除了傳統製造業的18%最高以外"},{"start":8860.406,"end":8865.668,"text":"公務部門的職場霸凌比例,雖然排名第4,但第2名是13%,第4名是12%,相差無幾"},{"start":8873.112,"end":8882.28,"text":"意思就是說公務體系公家機關教育部門這些公部門裡面的職場霸凌的問題這個是僅次於製造業這樣子是非常嚴重的這是人力銀行的調查報告職場霸凌在公務體系很嚴重"},{"start":8894.295,"end":8922.768,"text":"那我再來講第二個問題是說這種事情我們不是有正規的管道嗎當受到不法侵害不是有正規管道嗎為什麼這些議題都是透過爆料然後報導出來然後機關才去重視甚至出人命了只包不住火了才要去面對通常都是因為內部的正常的管道被冷處理被壓建"},{"start":8924.642,"end":8930.205,"text":"這是基本上整個事件的本質一定是這樣子這樣你知道我在說什麼嗎我們對於相關的事件一定讓他絕對要預防跟不允許他有這樣的發生那今天署的整備組組長的事件兩年內你知道你們署內離職的人員高達幾成嗎"},{"start":8955.641,"end":8959.242,"text":"整備組整備組我講是署內整備組呢37%這個這是正常人員的流動正常的嗎37%"},{"start":8982.85,"end":8996.773,"text":"那現在離職後的空缺多數也補不到人補不到人以後其他的業務啊其他的公務人員要分擔更多所以這種狀況裡面顯然因為這個組長的作為讓人家待不住然後呢很多人離職了那沒有離職的人還要做更多所以這個單位是高壓狀態喔高壓狀態所以難怪有人在講說欸真的不要再逼死人了"},{"start":9012.336,"end":9013.657,"text":"那這個組長被人家投這個被人家爆料缺乏耐性每天緊逼進度更新要創新要亮點卻不顧本業務本業的業務無法運作"},{"start":9027.739,"end":9028.38,"text":"一分鐘的錄音聽起來還好可是"},{"start":9056.616,"end":9067.642,"text":"如果這個組長在對他們組裡面的工作同仁是天天這樣說天天這樣子罵這裡面的人天天都要聽到組長這樣霸凌和羞辱情緒會好嗎?士氣會好嗎?一定會影響你看我的公文當時發給你的我發給你的公文一星期"},{"start":9084.489,"end":9100.428,"text":"這個是我發的公文11月15號這個事情我就講你們內部有沒有人檢舉有沒有人爆料有沒有人陳情過我們今天中午機關會送我現在在問你們啊你就在這裡回答我就好了啊"},{"start":9102.522,"end":9116.04,"text":"跟委員報告那這位組長他是應該說都沒有被事先有被申訴過完全都沒有沒有那為什麼我會知道為什麼會出這張公文"},{"start":9116.921,"end":9136.609,"text":"那個應該是說在15號12月上面是有人爆料啦崔上面爆料你有沒有聽過網路當時你有沒有聽過網路上的錄音檔當時崔上面爆料說今天署長你本人知不知道15號當時你知不知道15號當時所以PO出來我就知道了你就知道以後你怎麼處理"},{"start":9137.409,"end":9164.572,"text":"那當時我們大概就召開了應變的會議那也應變會議幾月幾日開15號15號當天就開當天也針對這個案因為他沒有一個主要的一個聲訊他爆料之前都沒有投訴沒有澄清沒有嗎完全沒有我們那為什麼人家沒有尋正常管道你們有沒有受不法侵害的正常SOP管道人事行政總處有規定喔報告委員你們有沒有訂出那一個正常作業流程"},{"start":9166.174,"end":9179.595,"text":"職場霸凌的一個作業辦法你們機關署的職場霸凌的人如果出問題那哪一個機關首長就是你嘛是你要負責處理我負責都沒有人提出"},{"start":9180.962,"end":9199.756,"text":"之前其實有另外一件其實我們有按照那個程序去處理了投訴的是組長嗎不是不是另外一件那現在我15號就跟你們講了但是呢我們希望就是說你們本來是說兩個月之後要提供調查報告啦你們私底下這樣回答我們啦要兩個月喔"},{"start":9201.617,"end":9222.289,"text":"結果現在我也是雖然你們院長現在已經下令了要一個禮拜內調查好但我也不會苛責你多久時間因為調查報告要呈現真實客觀不包庇才是最重要而不是只是求急那我再請教你你這一份未來的行政調查報告會不會包括去問已經離職的前職員"},{"start":9228.969,"end":9245.022,"text":"報告委員那這個我們今天已經開始針對這個離職的部分個別致電了那瞭解他們是不是願意受訪你知道這個問題是什麼嗎因為昨天我也詢問過勞動部的那個勞法署的"},{"start":9245.743,"end":9257.896,"text":"那個 署長 因為那署長本人也被人家認為有霸凌不是只有分署長 包括蔡孟良本人都有涉及霸凌還有這個副署長想要降級請調出去了那署長回答我是說他是家庭因素啦 他不是因為被霸凌啦"},{"start":9266.075,"end":9266.655,"text":"我請教你正規正辦的事情"},{"start":9294.672,"end":9298.535,"text":"今年年初這個看守臺灣臺灣的環保團體看守臺灣公布了全球的調查報告指出全球性的環保組織國際污染物消除網絡就是IPEN它在2022年有一個跨國的調查計畫總共檢測17個國家119種食品包材樣本有64個品項驗出PFAS"},{"start":9320.109,"end":9336.694,"text":"撤出率高達54%而直掀餐盒我們覺得說植物纖維餐盒好像很棒但是偏偏直掀餐盒檢出PFAS的濃度最高所以我們台灣看守台灣團體就把台灣的採樣送到iPen去檢驗他送了17個最後只有8個被檢驗了他們有篩選"},{"start":9347.717,"end":9368.764,"text":"8個品項受驗有7個品項測出含有PFAS5件的TOF超出用來判斷是否刻意添加PFAS的丹麥標準6件超出比丹麥標準更寬鬆的歐盟草案標準就是50ppm超過"},{"start":9371.925,"end":9396.404,"text":"8件裏面就有6件超過比較寬鬆的標準就歐盟草案的標準PFAS的測出率和超標狀況都比國際調查計劃他們去監測其他17個國家的平均檢測值還要更嚴重那結果計劃包裁我現在要公佈了計劃包裁分類說明檢測如下他們有公佈在他們網頁你那個書店有沒有看過我看書店你有去看過嗎看守台灣的公佈品項你有沒有看過"},{"start":9401.789,"end":9407.034,"text":"莊市長市長沒有看過哦報告委員我還沒有去看你沒有看過我跟你報告"},{"start":9408.288,"end":9422.279,"text":"但是那個批法這個說我們會跟環境部合作那個進行源頭的金融品項的來我跟你講我跟你報告你沒看過跟你報告防有紙袋不用忘了台灣人的第一餐從早餐開始蔥油餅蔥抓餅餡餅還有什麼早餐袋三明治都從防有紙袋開始的摩斯漢堡的紅豆派紙袋"},{"start":9435.891,"end":9437.613,"text":"台灣沒有標準 各位 台灣沒有標準"},{"start":9456.189,"end":9459.113,"text":"對食品安全的最大的疏忽和最大的縱放就是沒有任何標準沒有標準就不違規都不用受罰這反有指代接下來我講"},{"start":9473.224,"end":9475.447,"text":"維波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋7-11賣的啾哩啾哩"},{"start":9497.506,"end":9497.866,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9520.421,"end":9524.403,"text":"直掀參核﹐台灣某容器生產商的參核檢測出PFAS﹐它的含量是歐盟草案標準﹐57倍PFAS﹐"},{"start":9550.774,"end":9567.422,"text":"再生紙包材 臺灣終於有一個法規還可以臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的也不能使用再生紙的所以這類能收集到的不跟食品直接接觸的但是有風險的就是裝彈的彈盒其中有兩個品項進行檢測 一個是"},{"start":9572.885,"end":9595.983,"text":"全聯賣的勤益式好雞能蛋勤益式好雞能蛋它的蛋核檢測出PFAS同樣的主婦聯盟的快樂主婦雞蛋的蛋核沒有沒有檢出這樣 部長你知道PFAS它的風險在哪裡嗎部長 你要聽過PFAS嗎阿姨的風險在哪裡"},{"start":9604.417,"end":9609.362,"text":"這很誤會,這已經大家沸沸揚揚說很久了,這幾年都在說PFAS,PFAS部長,不知道沒關係,沒關係雖然你是醫生的,但是你可能不知道雖然這個議題很夯啊,大家討論的,不管從環境或是食品安全來講,討論得沸沸揚揚"},{"start":9627.154,"end":9651.828,"text":"我是知道這個最近大家都有在談這個啦因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質包括防油防水抗汙所以他很廣泛的在利用連包括衣服上都也有連那個鍋具都有連那個化學消防泡沫都有連防水衣料食品包材一次性的杯具在台灣人吃那個紅茶啦"},{"start":9653.969,"end":9654.61,"text":"八位委員我想那個"},{"start":9679.843,"end":9701.285,"text":"雖然明年食藥署有一個計畫 我覺得我會請他們喔 現在準備要來這次叫明年有一個計畫來 我跟你講 它是永久性的化學物質 不易被分解 生物環境的蓄積累積性的毒物它遠距離的環境傳輸 而且它持久性而且因為累積 不但累積再累積 所以它有生物的放大性"},{"start":9701.906,"end":9701.966,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9726.254,"end":9727.235,"text":"每天吃便當、喝咖啡"},{"start":9747.21,"end":9752.834,"text":"對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺、透過母體傳輸給胎兒的慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等在這種狀況裏面PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝這個是很嚴重的它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大我就不要說這麼多我講比較簡單"},{"start":9772.088,"end":9780.614,"text":"他在安全性的數據上面大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體人體中的濃度與血液肝臟腎臟較高短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除"},{"start":9789.019,"end":9801.436,"text":"常戀的PFAS由糞便排除但是對人類短戀的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等但是對常戀的PFAS要需要好幾年好來"},{"start":9804.656,"end":9831.476,"text":"引用水裡面的這個PFAS濃度因為我經常在環部環境部質詢那他們也預告今年8月預告引用水水質標準要納管要納管PFAS了終於了啦以確保引用水水質安全和品質而且今年年底就完成公告而你們你們作為在哪裡你們做了哪些事關於PFAS的"},{"start":9834.881,"end":9842.844,"text":"國際監視商會定有批發值的一個你清楚的說說不要亂說喔你再說得比較清楚的喔還沒有定出限量食品容器的現在人家說食品容器我告訴你國際我認不認識你聽你說國際到現在都沒有人有聽我告訴你聽喔"},{"start":9863.852,"end":9873.219,"text":"對施德哥爾摩公約他在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其言類因為PFOS是很多類很多類的總和的名稱PFOS包含很多東西"},{"start":9878.783,"end":9892.275,"text":"那其中PFOS包含了很多東西PFOS的裡面的PFOS他2009年就禁止了2020年禁止使用PFOA2022年起計劃要將PFHXS及其顏內納入條約而且在2023年要生效"},{"start":9902.023,"end":9917.557,"text":"2023年1月去年 荷蘭 德國 丹麥 瑞典 挪威 已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案 而且這個生效也要將禁止在消費品當中使用PE法是全禁"},{"start":9918.749,"end":9923.799,"text":"他是全進的 但是之前是進了P4是P4BFHXS 並不是沒有他是沒有全進而已"},{"start":9931.038,"end":9949.434,"text":"我們環境部的確也禁了PFOA啦、PFA 我在說你啦然後呢依照歐盟2023年3月資料 歐盟執委會我們當然就不能用了歐盟 人家是禁他們 歐洲不能用 不是我們不能用啦我們都本地生產本地使用我們毫無標準 我們連基礎調查都沒有你們來這裡還敢講說"},{"start":9955.598,"end":9971.625,"text":"美國在6月美國參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案從今年開始他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝你現在跟我說世界各國都沒有人給你是在爭笑的你這個書中跟你說的為你相信喔"},{"start":9976.107,"end":10002.133,"text":"美國今年去的全部都不能有還有PFAS的食品包裝欸你不要講這麼多啦,我問你,你有做過調查嗎?尤其環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查所有的營用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計劃讓他們的調查所有有的水庫,已經做了很久的這樣"},{"start":10003.752,"end":10006.735,"text":"結果水庫也沒有每天使用免洗的紙餐盒也沒有用咖啡杯也沒有用紙袋結果水庫裏面他們抽樣發現PFOA 37個樣品徹職大於室內客的佔了74%"},{"start":10022.808,"end":10032.913,"text":"PFOS 13個樣品 測值大於4個耐克1公升的 佔抽樣%是26%這兩年測量水 因為水質就是高山 這樣老外的就赤鹽中啊 啊我們每天在吃的人要怎麼做"},{"start":10042.711,"end":10046.813,"text":"我最好問你啦我們有沒有食品安全監測計畫這幾年來有做過嗎當然也沒有你什麼都不知道喔來相關的那邊給我聽報告委員我們食品要務曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFAS的含量的調查那我們這次大概在114年還會再做一次"},{"start":10069.529,"end":10083.557,"text":"來你把調查報告給我看我要講相較於水質調查台灣PFAS食品風險評估有沒有做過有112年有做過什麼你們調查報告叫什麼名字我講風險評估剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告這是兩件事"},{"start":10089.383,"end":10107.311,"text":"報告委員這個是叫食品中持久性有機汙染物全服碗機化合物質調查及風險評估好調查報告送來調查完成了好那歐盟2022年發布了2022及1431規章建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族監測期間如果發現人家是這樣講喔如果發現蔬果"},{"start":10118.616,"end":10125.661,"text":"訓類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時要進一步的調查原因那請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上如果你發現蔬果、訓類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候你要進一步調查為什麼?污染的風險來源是什麼?原因在哪裡?你們有沒有這樣子做?我們會在114年這個計畫中做"},{"start":10147.119,"end":10160.232,"text":"那你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素暨包裝包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究你們剛剛講的是你們研究的是這些持久性的化學風品對人的影響"},{"start":10161.872,"end":10168.579,"text":"那我現在講的是那台灣各種食品安全的監測的研究有沒有沒有那你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的這個PFAS的風險評估有沒有沒有"},{"start":10180.39,"end":10197.573,"text":"因為你們講的是檢驗方法開發和經濟研究結果2022年做的要2025年才公布2023年2024年都有做結果你們要2025、2026、2027年才要公布您的其中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來可以嗎其中報告不要倒翻喔"},{"start":10199.497,"end":10227.224,"text":"所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已台灣各種食品台灣環境裡面或是各種包裝他的監測計畫要做長期全面性的監測你了解問題有多嚴重才知道要怎麼管制和解決你可以不做你不做的前提是全部都管制直接禁止使用你有辦法嗎保定"},{"start":10228.072,"end":10254.965,"text":"你若沒有做監測計畫不瞭解問題多嚴重你比照美國全面禁用可以嗎有辦法全面禁用嗎PFAS我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作那如果一定把它做到最好所以委員所提示的指教的我們馬上都來進行我在問你說阿拉伯戶阿不中部金融食品容器食品包裝全部禁用PFAS有辦法馬上全禁嗎我們馬上來研議"},{"start":10257.899,"end":10258.72,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長"},{"start":10293.908,"end":10309.935,"text":"委員好部長好部長我今天想要請教就是有關這個兒童這個因為我們知道說少子化這個議題真的非常的嚴重那我在前兩兩三天參加一個兒科醫學會的一個研討會"},{"start":10311.475,"end":10339.516,"text":"那其實大家都非常的擔心就是少子化的問題然後我們所有的兒科醫師的人力的短缺那我想請教就是說我們知道說這個兒童困就是兒童如果要這個比較困難的這個疾病其實這個我們所有的兒科醫師他可能要診斷這個疾病可能也許要花更多的時間去做判斷然後去做診斷"},{"start":10342.518,"end":10355.889,"text":"確實在這幾年當中就是這個額克醫師投入在這個比如說在醫學院也好那這個人力不足所以有很多的醫師即使他已經在"},{"start":10356.569,"end":10381.316,"text":"這家醫學中心也好他已經很久工作很久了也這個五六十歲了那他還是要值班所以最近我聽到是這樣子而柯醫師真的他們還要值班所以有的人就會覺得說那我就直接轉到就是原本醫學中心或醫院他就不想然後就直接轉到診所就自己到診所去"},{"start":10382.216,"end":10400.397,"text":"所以我們發現就是說兒科醫師這個人力短缺的議題非常的嚴重那我們也知道說少子化這個問題是國安問題那我們的這個兒童的這個死亡率也高於其他國家高於美國高於日本"},{"start":10401.138,"end":10415.166,"text":"所以我今天想要請教我們部長就是說我們一直希望說能夠優化這個兒童的醫療照護那其實我也看到國會院底下有一個兒童醫學及健康研究中心"},{"start":10417.267,"end":10440.336,"text":"我認為就是說其實這個國衛院底下這個這個健康研究中心其實沒辦法去很實際上的去照顧到我們這些兒童的這個醫療那我想請教就是說我們現在全臺灣的這個兒童醫院從北到南好從北到南那其實感覺也沒有多少家"},{"start":10441.676,"end":10443.739,"text":"臺大兒童醫院成立10年與其他世界先進國家比較起來"},{"start":10462.121,"end":10487.573,"text":"衛福部或中央的資源挹注其實還是有限那我想請教就是說第一個未來這個部長你在這個位置上面你要怎麼樣讓我們的這個兒童的醫療人員短缺或者是分配不均的這樣的一個問題你要去做什麼樣的努力另外一個就是我們這個兒童醫院確實很多"},{"start":10488.533,"end":10488.834,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10505.816,"end":10526.45,"text":"這個兒童醫院的這種類似兒童醫療的一個研究中心我覺得這樣子會不會比較比較好而不是分散到其他的這個兒童醫院那我是不是可以先請教部長未來我們有關這個兒童醫療專業人力的這個短缺或者是分配不均的這個議題你要怎麼去做處理"},{"start":10528.88,"end":10552.847,"text":"謝謝委員對這個兒童健康以及兒童兒醫的人力還有困境現在的困境提出了非常精闢的一個提出來的一個見解來提出了這些問題的確這個就是我們現在兒科面臨的問題那我首先講特別著重因為委員很難得來關心我們一起來關心這個"},{"start":10554.327,"end":10573.528,"text":"兒童及重男罕症這個部分的確這個部分其實我想各個醫學中心尤其是像北部這些醫學中心發在這邊的醫院發在這邊投入的人力跟經費其實都是"},{"start":10574.489,"end":10585.775,"text":"值得肯定的這個我們首先要了解但是這個部分畢竟是要發揮比較多的是沒有什麼盈利盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈盈"},{"start":10597.961,"end":10625.209,"text":"一個是兒科有些科都還可以翻身兒科就是很難經營所以醫院其實都是很努力在維繫這樣的一個資源來照顧兒童的健康所以我想我們政府當然是有必要在人力跟資源方面給予最大的支持那你要怎麼做你要給這些做支持那你要怎麼做"},{"start":10626.274,"end":10642.711,"text":"好,我想我們有一些優化整個兒童照顧的一個計畫,剛剛委員有提出來,其實裡面就很多來改善這樣的一個環境,但是我還是強調這是非常重要的那是不是請議事司司長跟委員報告一下"},{"start":10643.391,"end":10661.882,"text":"報告委員就是就兒童人才的部分的話我們大概就會希望是說有兒童醫院跟醫學中心帶其領頭羊那也因為這樣所以我們在優化兒童依賴網的計畫裡面有八家核心醫院這個就是人才培育然後網絡連結的部分因為你一定要有產出"},{"start":10662.382,"end":10680.298,"text":"像委員剛剛特別在這個地方講的是說那幾乎都在基層這一塊的職業部分所以我們才會利用就是說把人才集中在訓練的部分透過核心醫院來帶動跟去網絡做連結的時候才有人才不斷的流"},{"start":10680.658,"end":10680.898,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10709.893,"end":10726.028,"text":"106年開始就透過國衛院這邊來合作因為長期的政策合作對人力的分布這一塊我們覺得對兒科的醫師的發展所以你們現在政策的研究就交給國衛院那臨床的研究就交給現在目前的這些有兒童醫院的這些醫院嗎"},{"start":10726.869,"end":10751.494,"text":"包括醫學中心因為兒科的發展這一塊的科技研究部分主要的經費來源會來自科技部國科會然後以國科會這邊的話其實他會鼓勵各個學門然後那以這個部分來說的話我們大致上面衛福部這邊是支持人員出國進修所以我們在我們的優化兒童醫療網裡面是鼓勵我們這邊的人才出國去進修"},{"start":10752.094,"end":10752.374,"text":"4年提供135億"},{"start":10776.146,"end":10799.165,"text":"來協助這個相關歐同醫療照護的發展我補充一下就是部長剛剛講的就是第二期行政院這邊特別加碼因為第一期的時候是4年28億發現在第三年執行過程當中就發現這樣的預算是遠遠不夠超出我們之前的估算所以今年113年有加碼加碼到20億"},{"start":10800.426,"end":10824.38,"text":"以這個預算的那個度來預估所以行政院這邊特別就是已經通過了優化兒童醫療網第2期的計畫這邊也希望委員能夠支持優化兒童醫療網4年135億以上那部長我想再請教一下就是說賴總統在2025年健康台灣的政策當中有提到一個就是希望將新生兒的死亡率降到4%"},{"start":10826.281,"end":10852.252,"text":"就是說要達到這樣的一個成效那如果要這樣子的話其實有需要大量的可能資源投入那或者是要有一些大數據或預防的方案那我想請教就是說我們這邊剛剛有特別提到就是說可能政策方面是交給國衛院這邊去做一些研究那應該也要進行各單位的資源整合才有辦法完成要不然"},{"start":10853.332,"end":10865.804,"text":"臺灣的這個新生兒的死亡率其實跟其他鄰近國家比起來其實是比較高的對的因為我們目前來講是我們的統計用我們的統計方式是千分之五點二那我們希望在"},{"start":10868.646,"end":10890.164,"text":"我們的健康台灣的目標是要把它降到前文字4以下那這個的確第一個我們要釐清data的一個的算法跟國家國際間的一個標準化的一個算法那這第一個第二個當然我們就是要加強到從印產相關的照顧那我想這個部分當然"},{"start":10891.645,"end":10916.613,"text":"兒童兒醫這個部分的團隊給他鼓勵是更重要部長最後因為時間的關係那個那個趙偉可能會希望我準時一點那我就盡量準時我這最後一個題目我想請教就是說這個目前我們希望就是說這個兒童盡量不要生病盡量不要生病那應該也是要從預防方面去著手"},{"start":10917.153,"end":10939.86,"text":"而不是說生病之後我們才從這個醫療方面應該是要不讓他生病就是用預防的方式那我不知道說像這樣子的話如果說要以預防就剛剛部長有特別提到如果說有家醫師兒科醫師可能也需要有一些讓爸爸媽媽有一些"},{"start":10940.52,"end":10958.712,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10958.792,"end":10959.132,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10984.288,"end":10999.114,"text":"我照顧多少的孩子那這些孩子都不生病都是健康那這樣子我覺得是不是也可以朝這樣的一個方向來來發想謝謝委員的指教我們現在在推兒童專者醫師就希望給他一個從疫房是"},{"start":10999.574,"end":11026.066,"text":"然後包括整個他環境的一個關心來下手預防剩餘治療當然有任何問題也給他最好的一個處理所以現在已經開始做了嗎有在做而且是各縣市現在都積極在運作是也蠻多醫師參與的也非常感謝他們好我希望就是說因為我們一直在講嫂子話我們每一個小孩都是寶貝所以一定是給他最好的一個照顧"},{"start":11027.607,"end":11043.401,"text":"那剛剛講的新生老那個部分那個也是重點對更多的小孩出生安全的出生平安的長大對這都是我們每一個歷程我們都要努力來做是好我希望就是說這個區塊應該應該也是就剛剛講的這個這個家醫科跟兒科可能是比較不會"},{"start":11050.447,"end":11051.168,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢"},{"start":11083.733,"end":11109.296,"text":"謝謝主席有請邱部長委員好部長你好部長有關新冠跟流感混打的事宜根據美國醫學會的雜誌刊登的文獻研究發現同時接種COVID-19疫苗跟流感疫苗後中風的風險會增加"},{"start":11110.693,"end":11135.347,"text":"那美國食品藥物管理局的專家分析了醫療保險所賠的數據也得出相同的結論那同時CNN在去年的10月26日也報導混打會提高中風的風險那請問部長現在這些研究有出來對於風險的部分是持相反的意見那會不會考慮停止左流右行的這個這項做法"},{"start":11137.188,"end":11158.254,"text":"好 協議委員的指教齁 那我想我們所有的疫苗怎麼打 要打什麼 都是由ACIP齁 或者是相關的一個專家齁 經過很嚴謹的考的一個 當然他們每一個都是 應該都是這一方面的專家對 我相信是專家那 所以應該會 這樣的打法齁 那個應該是專家所"},{"start":11158.934,"end":11183.576,"text":"但部長我去查了一下因為左流右心的這個施打方法是在依據111年的2月25日傳染病防治諮詢會的流感防治組預防接種組的聯席會議定定的所以是在111年的2月25號可是這些是後來美國學界在去年做出病打會增加風險的研究"},{"start":11184.932,"end":11201.367,"text":"所以我要跟你講的你懂我的意思嗎了解在這部分疾管署跟ACIP的會議是不是要重新檢討雖然說有很多的這種醫學的研究或許都有正反兩面的意見但是是不是應該要重新檢討而且要把這種各種風險明確的告訴我們的國人是"},{"start":11205.362,"end":11231,"text":"是的那是不是我請署長莊署長報告委員那有關這個報導的部分那容我們再去看因為每一個研究它有不同的一個證據等級那這個部分我們也會收集這些研究然後再去跟我們的ACIP的委員會來做這方面的一個對因為當初你們設定的時間點跟後來出來的研究是有落差的不過應該是說"},{"start":11232.801,"end":11256.237,"text":"當初是這樣但是我們陸續也有看到其他是正面的一些結果你說左流右心對所以我們也會好那我就接下來就繼續講國外目前主要討論就是有關混打兩種疫苗後老人心血管啊腦中風的病患機率提高的問題那所以日前在基隆也出現左流右心一次接種之後就有民眾不幸死亡的案例"},{"start":11257.657,"end":11272.591,"text":"上個月在臺東也有接種5天後身亡的案例那對此 疾管署你們的回應是什麼回應是說通常都是接種一小時後發生的副作用那一般就不會被認定跟疫苗相關的副作用"},{"start":11273.635,"end":11300.697,"text":"是有關係但這樣的風險是不是存在民眾如果知道有這樣的風險而且接種後的副作用的保固卻只有一個小時部長你認為民眾對於這樣左流右行同時混打的接受度會提高還是會降低我想如果媒體這樣的消息當然會影響到接種的意願所以以臺大意願而言在"},{"start":11302.503,"end":11317.373,"text":"你們應該要再一次的深入去了解重新召開然後因為他有風險應該是要讓民眾可以明確明白自己有風險之後再自行評估他要不要參與施打"},{"start":11331.584,"end":11343.136,"text":"我之前也幫我之前也幫很多疫苗受害家屬開過這個記者會討空到因為你們發生這件事情之後你們後續就在自己審議委員會裡面每一個案例只花了80秒的時間"},{"start":11345.225,"end":11345.325,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":11369.571,"end":11379.696,"text":"那像這一例他會做這個解剖啦所以會做進一步的查證這個之前開會記者會很多細節就是你們就是不夠嚴謹那另外這個剛剛說這個開會80秒那個我想有些誤會因為其實我們每個案子都會"},{"start":11386.78,"end":11414.599,"text":"這沒有誤會有三個委員他們至少三個委員他們會先看過上次都已經講過了這個我們在這裡就不繼續說數我在這個這已經打過很多次新冠疫苗國內目前的品牌也只有現在就是這種混打式的就是莫德納一直傳聞說有要雙打的原因是因為莫德納要推出雙效疫苗也是同一支疫苗可以達到新冠跟流感的效果那是否真的有這個事情若沒有的話可不可以請部長在這裡澄清跟保證"},{"start":11415.78,"end":11416.021,"text":"我相信"},{"start":11426.201,"end":11452.16,"text":"所有的專家疫苗專家我不曉得是誰啦齁但是一定都是各全國各地的醫療相關的精英以從我擔任在醫界這麼多年我相信沒有一個醫療的專家會站在任何所以部長你保證就不會是嗎我只是要你曾經保證一下嘛保證不會因為這種原因來做這種事情好所以我還是要強調一下我是希望提高接種率我還是要強調一下我並沒有反對疫苗施打的推行"},{"start":11452.6,"end":11480.883,"text":"但是你們應該要誠實而且非常公開透明的讓小心的告訴我們的民眾這應該是衛福部的責任而不是只是負責花錢去為了提升疫苗的打氣然後後續發生了又不管什麼副作用然後你們的整個整個審理這些疫苗受害的過程非常的狹隘讓這些人為了公衛去願意打這個疫苗可是發生問題之後卻得不到賠償"},{"start":11482.486,"end":11506.806,"text":"另外部長這個有關衛福部的這個霸凌的事情公務體系今天也很多人都有問但是昨天賴總統終於在事發17天後在臉書上檢討這件事情他強調每一位每一名員工都是政府機關重要的議員都是人才要加強對於他們關懷跟保護那但是昨天勞動部核部長對於這個霸凌的調查報告說"},{"start":11510.209,"end":11522.343,"text":"他有他的惡可是這樣的惡是不是普遍存在官僚體制中就像是德國哲學家漢納厄蘭所說的平庸的邪惡請問部長你認同這句話嗎平庸的邪惡"},{"start":11526.583,"end":11540.673,"text":"我沒有那麼哲學家那麼有那個瞭解但是我只是堅持著像這樣的資產霸凌的情況我們一定要努力來預防部長我告訴你我是很認同何部長引述漢娜二蘭所說邪惡的平庸"},{"start":11541.454,"end":11561.358,"text":"因為那是在批判那些在納粹希特勒威權領導下社會集體的思考無能所以他是不是在影射這幾年的民進黨政府的執政我想這就用大家去解讀我就不評判但是我要強調即使他說這個平庸的邪惡但絕對沒有目的良善的霸凌所以我想問一下上週這個"},{"start":11566.263,"end":11595.581,"text":"部長啊上週在社群媒體的這個有關爆料疾管署整備組組長也有這方面的問題請教部長啊罵人是豬啊是求好行妾目的良善情緒失控公然侮辱還是平庸的邪惡哪一種啊罵人只要是在職場上有罵人都是不對的不管你用什麼言辭這樣子好所以這件事情啊霸凌的事件你們是不是也認知到這件事情不能再拖有我們一個禮拜之內會你是因為行政院"},{"start":11596.041,"end":11623.3,"text":"被行政院長罵了才趕快改還是行政院長道歉了因為你們本來說兩個月現在變一個禮拜院長是指示指示大家任何這有寫嘛以備媒體最後或者討論的是案件全部要在一周內完成調查追責責任這件事情啊能夠帶來讓相關霸凌事件的重視跟加速的調查我想是我們在不幸中的這個事件要學到的其中一個教訓會很謹慎"},{"start":11626.189,"end":11654.238,"text":"好再來目前我們看到整備組的異動37%是確實是偏高的但是也高於機關署的13%所以幾個調查重點要特別提醒一下我們的部長第一個這個委員會的組成要合理該避免的人士就要迴避外部委員的人數也比例也應該要提高相關人士的邀約談還有包含主管基層"},{"start":11655.114,"end":11657.865,"text":"然後也要確保中間到底有沒有人吃案、押案"},{"start":11658.888,"end":11687.059,"text":"然後LINE也沒有要查核然後現在時代也不是只是用公文在下命令所以這些媒介都應該要去掌握那另外我是希望這個調查請部長我也有看到你有保證應該要公正超然不要有行政瑕疵是不然我們一定會追究到底當然當然對我想這個該辦就要辦公務體系不應該成為這個官場現行記的舞台應該是穩定國家發展的基石主席不好意思我還有還是有一點點問題要問"},{"start":11689.96,"end":11710.154,"text":"好我直接跳下一題好了有關於日前食藥署發布公告將這個藥放寬六項標準標準放寬從一倍到三倍都有事實上減少農藥等化學物質在蔬果上提倡無農藥的種植都是趨勢我想要問一下"},{"start":11711.471,"end":11723.687,"text":"為什麼現在會反其道而行放寬標準你看這裡面阿福平調高2.5倍其他3倍2.8倍這些都有高於歐盟3倍高於歐盟5倍都有我想要請問一下"},{"start":11725.01,"end":11750.758,"text":"為什麼會有這樣的原因是其他他國要求嗎還是是有其他的原因呢是不是是那個請莊市長跟委員報告一下因為這些農藥的放寬的標準主要的原因是我們那時候是依據農業部的要求有的是因為他在各個地的依據農業部的要求那農業部為什麼要要求這件事情犧牲國人的食品安全健康"},{"start":11753.132,"end":11767.063,"text":"過去就已經討論過草莓農要標準放寬經過激烈的討論之後並沒有通過為什麼現在又要放寬呢是因為要因應日本的要求嗎還是有誰在下指導旗要犧牲國人的健康"},{"start":11768.666,"end":11775.07,"text":"以前就已經討論過為什麼現在要突然放寬明明就是往沒有農藥的方向去走就是趨勢那你現在放寬的背後的邏輯到底是什麼而且這也有寫日本草莓今年又新增開放了使用七種農藥"},{"start":11795.356,"end":11819.11,"text":"我要提醒你們不應該把人民的健康把人民的食安放在風險之中所以我反對把這個放款為了守護人民的食品安全好謝謝主席好謝謝六委員謝謝我們一定會守護人民的健康請放心來接續我們請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":11835.482,"end":11854.491,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長委員好部長好,上次質詢的時候提到專科護理師他們夜間津貼獎勵的問題你也在這邊做出了很莊嚴的承諾那也感謝衛福部"},{"start":11855.816,"end":11877.403,"text":"到我辦公室來說明了以後就依照我的要求有發函讓大家知道專科護理師只要落入在你們那個範圍有夜間服勤的事實大家都可以領得到錢沒有大小眼沒有差別對待這個很重要這個事情我先謝謝部長但問題是下一個問題是函是發下去了"},{"start":11879.784,"end":11890.117,"text":"大家現在在擔心是醫院是不是會真的按照你發的函來辦理所以你可不可以跟大家宣示一下醫院就是應該要切實遵守"},{"start":11893.582,"end":11917.554,"text":"宣示一下醫院要按照衛福部的喊切實遵守我現在在著求給你我在這邊希望所有的醫院一定要按照我們的衛福部的規定確實去發放OK好非常好來我們接下來這個禮拜天我們那個本土小牙醫聯盟一些民間團體他們要"},{"start":11920.199,"end":11928.885,"text":"提出他們具體的訴求第一個撤回24億甲偏鄉計畫衛福部不得開後門衛福部知不支持我跟委員報告這個20億甲偏鄉這樣的名詞是錯誤的"},{"start":11938.666,"end":11963.522,"text":"那個這的確就是偏鄉計畫因為這偏鄉計畫已經是從第一題所以沒有啦那我們不要受限於標題啦因為內容我其實也別給你看了嘛我直接再度回答就是我們的偏鄉第二優化偏鄉醫療計畫第二期現在要針對現在在牙醫這個部分只是針對55個現在沒有牙醫的鄉鎮"},{"start":11967.324,"end":11983.543,"text":"我們鼓勵本國的醫師當然是有執照的是所以絕對不會沒有執照嗎絕對第一個絕對沒有執照沒有執照我們醫師還不會讓他去執OK好非常好第二個保留啊國外學歷採任原則贊不贊成"},{"start":11987.604,"end":12011.938,"text":"這個我們保留國外協議裁判當然我一再重複我們絕對採用最高的要求絕對採用最高的標準來做國外協議的裁判現在問題來了因為這件事情考選部非常的困擾為什麼考選部非常的困擾2017年1月1號我們開始加嚴管制"},{"start":12016,"end":12043.485,"text":"結果到2022年6月22日上一屆國會依司法公布了三項附帶決議要放寬引發軒然大波所以在2022年6月22日三讀通過那三個附帶決議的時候在考試院發生什麼事情在考試院發生的事情是衛福部派去的代表我不確定他是不是受到附帶決議的影響"},{"start":12045.336,"end":12073.559,"text":"他跑去考選部開會的時候他開會因為考選部基本上他們的立場是他尊重主管機關衛福部的政策立場考選部把整個嚴格都寫得很清楚了結果你們2022年6月30號第43次的審議會議以後你們同意不再適用國外大學或學院醫學系科學歷採認原則"},{"start":12076.26,"end":12103.665,"text":"從這個時候開始放寬部長這個基本的事實你有沒有掌握首先跟委員報告我們不會根據互待決議是啦是啦我知道嘛所以我在一樣一樣放給你看嘛按照醫師法修法的以後的一個應該進行的據我了解是我的掌握是這樣子"},{"start":12104.065,"end":12127.603,"text":"要回到2017年那時候的標準嘛就是你剛所講最嚴格的標準嘛但我今天為什麼要藉由這個機會去質詢我怕部長人事情忙啊沒有辦法掌握這些基本的事實啊所以我特別上來跟院長報告啊2022年6月30號的時候你們派去考選部的代表說什麼啊"},{"start":12128.724,"end":12153.17,"text":"說沒有再要用那個財政原則阿要放寬阿結果來來來部長你看一下2022年11月23號行政院韓立法院復旦決議我們不執行喔這個是行政院直接回韓立法院因為那時候引發軒然大波大家都來抗議了嘛抗議完了以後阿接下來就看不懂了"},{"start":12154.249,"end":12168.218,"text":"行政院跟立法院講這附帶決議我們不會執行意思就是什麼學歷的採任不會放寬但問題是你們到44次會議的時候你們衛福部為什麼沒有派人去考選部開會跟有關於醫師考試採任原則這麼重要的事情衛福部竟然一個人都沒有去"},{"start":12183.12,"end":12184.082,"text":"部長這件事你知道嗎"},{"start":12189.819,"end":12216.43,"text":"這是2022的時候因為我不在部裡面沒關係部長你回去查一下一個禮拜之內書面回覆為什麼那時候沒有派人去沒有派人去的結果是什麼我跟院長報跟部長報告沒有派人去的結果就是啊之前放寬了44次喔雖然附帶決議不執行喔繼續放寬到第45次有派人去了有派人去一句話都沒講"},{"start":12217.728,"end":12235.394,"text":"一句話都沒有講沒有跟考試院考選部講說那個附帶決議沒有要執行欸結果又按照43次的繼續放寬從43、44、45附帶決議都已經不執行了結果衛福部去考選部完全沒有表達這樣的意見導致繼續的放寬違反部長剛剛所講一定用最嚴格的標準"},{"start":12249.006,"end":12268.127,"text":"這個是在玩兩面手法嗎明著講一套背後在放水嗎部長可不可以回去了解一下為什麼會發生這種狀況接下來呢接下來要不要回復到2017年那個時候的嚴格採任標準這個是現在大家關心的事情"},{"start":12269.096,"end":12280.944,"text":"這部分的意思是可以說明一下我們把那個原則已經修到醫師法施行細則阿最近會公布所以就會用醫師法施行細則是現在你們公告的醫師法施行細則一之一嗎"},{"start":12281.772,"end":12299.631,"text":"不是 那個是公告的草案那個草案的部分我們要在那等於是預告程序所以我們要公告的部分的話會採認那個已經把那個原則的部分修到我們預計修的疑似法施行細則第12年就維持2017年一模一樣的標準嘛"},{"start":12300.071,"end":12314.742,"text":"文字有一些些的微調因為那個原則裡面有一些些文字不基本那個文字啊會後可不可以給我因為有的時候魔鬼就藏在細節裡啊你微調以後的文字是不是有維持之前的標準這個是大家現在在關心的嘛"},{"start":12316.192,"end":12332.19,"text":"那一個在程序中所以我們會覺得是說我們如果要公告之前我們其實是公告的那個同時可以送到委辦因為這是程序問題對 這個你們的行政程序我尊重我最後只講一句話"},{"start":12333.474,"end":12346.28,"text":"拜託這次不要再引發軒然大波了吵了好幾年了從2017年2022那時候在立法院偷渡那個附帶決議引發軒然大波搞到行政院發函說附帶決議不執行這很嚴重的事情"},{"start":12350.495,"end":12377.448,"text":"那已經產生了這麼大的爭議希望這一次要慎重維持部長剛剛的承諾維持最嚴的嚴格那同時文字在你們程序上面可以的時候給所有的委員大家都知道好的不要再產生這樣的爭議可以嗎一定我們一定會最大的誠意來解決剛剛委員所講的長期的一個爭議OK好謝謝最嚴格的方式來審查最嚴格嘛大家都聽到了OK謝謝"},{"start":12379.837,"end":12384.163,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請賴思寶委員質詢謝謝主席 有請衛福部的邱部長"},{"start":12400.188,"end":12425.4,"text":"委員好你好這個外界也在高度質疑說衛福部啊其實你來之前啊其實官僚非常官僚土房店一堆啦你什麼時候可以清一遍你自己親自清一遍說不要讓勞動部的事情發生在衛福部因為你現在點名了啊機關署裡面就有啊還有可能還有其他單位啊"},{"start":12426.4,"end":12430.385,"text":"委員會主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會主管"},{"start":12445.834,"end":12460.968,"text":"我一切都是以人民的健康為資質一生的資質你都這樣麻吉就是人家怎麼捏你的部主怎麼欺負你沒關係跟委員報告一下我到部裡面來深深的覺得我們部裡面的所有的官僚很足啊官僚很足啊真的是非常的努力啦我派你石耀俗聽說你吳署長我有官威始祖啊那東西大家都知道啊出到這個部長就"},{"start":12469.696,"end":12474.458,"text":"現在大家最...現在來講喔你不要在笑啦一個是波波一一個本土一啊現在來講的話"},{"start":12498.41,"end":12499.131,"text":"國外醫學院畢業了"},{"start":12528.15,"end":12544.695,"text":"國外的有的 比如說哈佛的你把哈佛的John Hopkins的跟波波擺在一起這個東西炒到多多的放在一起要怎麼議這個東西就是大家混這個在111年我們在這邊的時候修法就變成這樣子來 這個大家混我跟你講現在來說嘛"},{"start":12553.464,"end":12563.537,"text":"其實有些人同情你啦這個始作俑者叫陳時中啦結果你就會爛 邱太元你就那麼麻煩 怎麼不去批評陳時中主要陳時中現在牙醫快要崩盤你知道嗎請問一下牙醫多少人"},{"start":12572.981,"end":12585.368,"text":"一萬七左右來來來我們看一萬六一萬七我們現在疫病比大概一千三百五十一個牙醫服務一千三百五十個人每一年增加五百位我這數字對吧不對請指教"},{"start":12594.576,"end":12612.088,"text":"每年台灣喔391個新生那可能還會加僑生或等等所以依照研究齁420個畢業阿如果說加上原來的不是每次都有50吧大概470個可是還要想一下考照率對考照率怎麼樣考照率95%的鬼阿"},{"start":12615.435,"end":12638.046,"text":"9層9層9層9層9層9層"},{"start":12638.186,"end":12656.373,"text":"我們就會幾年後跟日本一樣一比一千人一個牙醫服務一千人就變成牙醫就崩盤東京是一比八百六十一福岡一比九百五十一大阪一比一牙醫師下班以後還去看Uber還要做外送員主席都知道啊"},{"start":12665.237,"end":12685.298,"text":"有些人說我去本黨來喔 抱歉你不去找我人 以前對台灣外戰有扣就中了 這個部長你都知道囉請問邏輯你現在怎麼解本土意義跟國外意義怎麼取得平衡 你告訴我怎麼做"},{"start":12687.653,"end":12709.418,"text":"是這樣子啦我們當然臺灣也是國際化的一個國家所以我跟委員報告就是像即使像哈佛或像那個大學他們都有國際學成他說的國際學成大概是他們的比例大概8到10%所以我們如果一年有400位111的本土生那乘以我們目前5大概8%"},{"start":12711.198,"end":12721.43,"text":"比例上是跟國際間是接軌的啦你現在告訴我怎麼解因為時間差不多到了齁這個馬上人家上街頭訴求你怎麼樣解讓"},{"start":12723.891,"end":12746.333,"text":"本土小洋衣也能夠吞進去讓國外的洋衣也能夠吞進去你該怎麼處理你該告訴我怎麼處理我想我們還是第一個我們還是重申我們維持每年50個這是國際性的這1到10年來都沒有變我們也不會去增加第二個我們在學歷的認定就按照110年6月通過的法的修法"},{"start":12746.894,"end":12746.914,"text":"偏鄉計劃"},{"start":12769.085,"end":12791.648,"text":"他的確需要去補足現在限定是55個沒有牙醫師的鄉鎮我們給阿你偏鄉機會就是為波波來開門的沒有沒有沒有完全沒有實習現在已經不去做實習這邊是來我就問你一句話我們用本國的而且是有執照的24億裡面是不是絕對沒有波波是不是請問一下請問一下目前沒有目前沒有以後也沒有啊不要目前你"},{"start":12792.869,"end":12809.81,"text":"沒有那種為了潑潑實習那一套當然如果說他是國外的學歷我們是以本國優先嘛那如果說譬如說他是雪梨大姐畢業然後就下這個國外預先其實他有執照啦其實這個應該目前也被排除掉現在我們以國"},{"start":12811.994,"end":12834.983,"text":"國內畢業的優先喔不是優先啦一定啦百分之百啦現在問題是這55個偏鄉真的就是需要牙醫是所以還是有可能撥撥嘛那是沒有現在不會用撥撥大家所擔心的是開放實習名額那我們現在又做的完全沒有這回事"},{"start":12836.492,"end":12849.496,"text":"最後一個我就請問你喔面對這個爭議我提供一個建議來個總量管制大家的科技可以嗎總量管制管理是國內國外的科技考試你們定考試你們定"},{"start":12855.093,"end":12867.421,"text":"總量管制!就是不管你國內國外的總量管制!這樣子的話!柏坡跟本土營就可以取得平衡點!大家考試來評實力!沒有啦!你現在總量管制!你現在沒有總量管制啦!總量管制落實!確實落實!不要專門為柏坡開後門!你才有解啦!"},{"start":12884.433,"end":12889.217,"text":"謝謝主席我也謝謝侯孟愷委員願意跟我換順序我請一下邱部長還有石耀署跟醫師司長"},{"start":12903.209,"end":12924.858,"text":"委員好部長好部長這個我們從當同事到現在第一次來質詢您我想還是要先謝謝這個衛福部跟立法院還有朝野黨團共同合作來通過再生醫療法的這個案子那再生醫療法母法通過了以後其實我們還有9項的執法還有待進行我想請教一下現在9項執法的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":12926.54,"end":12941.182,"text":"委員這邊我們在生醫療法的9項執法規目前就是出稿的部分的話我這邊已經走完大概7個執法規然後那預計就是12月"},{"start":12942.108,"end":12945.17,"text":"．9個執法的第一次出稿討論．然後再進行後續的各項的討論．跟部長報告完之後其他的討論我相信明年"},{"start":12961.742,"end":12982.375,"text":"明年年中以前都出不來這9項執法都出不來應該不會你這麼樂觀嗎我曾經跟你們周志浩次長討論過這件事情他說因為你們內部的同仁尤其法規的同仁對於執法的制定非常的嚴謹他說一定要定到大家都沒有意見才會送出來"},{"start":12983.436,"end":12983.676,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13014.296,"end":13039.985,"text":"推動再生醫療法也是我一生的信念再生醫療法還沒有通過之前有一個叫恩慈療法這個我相信您也很清楚恩慈療法就是要來適應緊急醫療的現在的藥物無法治療的或者是病人有緊急需要的他就會透過恩慈來申請這樣的一個治療方式部長你知道你們的恩慈療法每一個申請大概要經過多久的審核時間你知道嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":13042.796,"end":13057.394,"text":"每一個病人來申請恩慈要經過多久的審核時間不過我是希望愈快愈好因為你跟我講你希望愈快愈好但是你這個希望下不去嘛部長我跟您報告每一個恩慈最少要經過3個月以上"},{"start":13059.241,"end":13085.736,"text":"緊急醫療的病人危急的病人血癌的病人多發性骨髓瘤的病人都已經在緊急了來申請恩慈他還要審查3個月以上一關又一關一關又一關我最近接到一個病人的請求他親自寫了一封信給我他跟我說委員你可不可以幫幫我跟衛福部說讓我接受恩慈的跨梯治療"},{"start":13087.844,"end":13102.183,"text":"他送件三次現在是第三次了前兩次被食藥署駁回駁回到這個病人已經沒有辦法了他來求救他希望食藥署能夠救他他希望食藥署能夠早日審核他的"},{"start":13103.004,"end":13126.4,"text":"他的申請報告能夠讓他接受咖啡的治療部長如果人民的健康是你一生的職質的話你應該要正視這個結果是了解你們的審核如果這個藥廠過去送的件過去治療的case過去他的所有的文件都在衛福部裡頭有備案的話為什麼不能加快腳步呢"},{"start":13127.501,"end":13147.308,"text":"為什麽不能讓病人得到他應該有的治療呢為什麽不能讓病人的right to try能夠實際的進行呢這是我今天為什麽還特別來質詢衛福部一個很重要的原因如果執法不能早日通過他們現在只能仰賴恩慈恩慈審核要三個月你叫這些病人怎麽辦"},{"start":13148.388,"end":13159.094,"text":"我時間已經到了但是部長我希望你能夠回去好好的盯緊這件事情好不好一定一定我覺得我們旁邊太多眾今天需要緊急來處理謝謝謝謝邱委員繼續我們請黃孟凱委員質詢好謝謝請麻煩邱太元部長"},{"start":13183.615,"end":13200.58,"text":"委員好邱部長這兩天因為勞動部的這個霸凌事件那也有爆料是說這個疾管署也有類似的狀況那當然已經講說一個禮拜內會調查完畢是那但是我想請教一下您知道疾管署裡面有幾個組或幾個中心嗎7個組5個組兩個中心5個組兩個中心嘛齁那其中這個"},{"start":13210.552,"end":13229.082,"text":"調職率或是離職率最高的是哪一個組?整備組就是被爆出來的這個組總共有37%那平均籍管署過去去年一年內調職率多少?12%會不會覺得很奇怪?為什麼?"},{"start":13231.872,"end":13260.162,"text":"部長其實這件事情大家在講是說就如同勞動部為什麼我們會看到那個北區分署會有說兩年內這個分署長在那邊結果有81位員工寧願降調寧願平調我也要趕快逃離那個地方他就是明顯高於其他的這個單位不正常的離職狀況那一樣的道理整備組在過去這五月到現在平調其他單位六人"},{"start":13260.962,"end":13262.348,"text":"跳到其他機關6人 辭職1人 調職或辭職總共13人 達37%"},{"start":13267.438,"end":13296.549,"text":"不覺得這樣子高於平均是很奇怪的事情嗎異常的數據出來我們就要趕快來是系統性的部長你是醫學出身嗎醫學看到的很多時候我們是要用儀器用數據來去監控這個病人身體狀況有沒有其他反應那一樣到如果說把衛福部當成是一個人體的話是不是各個數據出來發生異常的時候指數是異常的我們要去了解一下應該是不是是部長"},{"start":13297.429,"end":13324.521,"text":"本席真的希望這個可能不第一件但是我們希望是最後一件我們也不希望說有任何人在我們機關裡面要虎揚威或者是說把公天下變成是家天下一個禮拜大家都會看你的報告請一定要如實秉公處理可以嗎絕對是絕對是秉公處理好那部長秉公處理另外一個部分本席上一次在這邊質詢你什麼議題你記得嗎"},{"start":13329.38,"end":13353.032,"text":"沒關係啦 電子菸啦我們明年的機關稅出稅入的這個增加預算本期看了一下 300多億我們多增加衛福部多增加300多億元其中國民健康署增加了55億原本113年的預算只有56億國民健康署一次增加一倍變111億"},{"start":13357.714,"end":13384.567,"text":"111億其中最大中為什麼有這個癌症篩檢的部分41億所以整個提升了一倍是好瞭解要錢給錢但是重點在於是我們當然是會審查預算可是有沒有做到我們關心的議題我上個禮上一次我們直覺說已經三個禮拜過去了我講是說我們怎麼會放任電子煙那麼明明不是"},{"start":13385.632,"end":13397.712,"text":"合法的東西指煙算合法喔可是他必須要有身份證件18歲以上才能購買到超商我還會看你的身份證件結果電子煙完全不合法"},{"start":13398.891,"end":13426.429,"text":"我們居然可以容忍讓他在網路上可以搜尋的到然後還可以購買購買完之後還來到這個超商他外包裝還沒有包裝就是還可以把他遮蔽所以你根本不知道說他裡面內容物是什麼所以也沒有檢查身份證件你說不能容忍我也看到了我們國建署新聞稿講說112年開始加強網路取締那我想請教三個禮拜過去了"},{"start":13428.086,"end":13448.468,"text":"部長現在google還是搜尋的到第一頁打電子煙三個字我都已經我今天其實有點哀莫大於心死三個禮拜前我滿腔熱血我想說罵了之後你可能你不知道說那麼嚴重我罵完之後趕快是不是能夠比照其他違禁品"},{"start":13449.489,"end":13450.51,"text":"包委我們其實一直在努力包括"},{"start":13464.637,"end":13486.058,"text":"包括各個地方政府都有說我們現在的NI防治法抓到以後沒辦法跟他默入跟銷毀所以我們最近也在研究來給他更大的力量部長我真的完全沒有感受到我要不要借一下我的ipad給你你現在搜尋一下電子煙三個字我們要不要看一下說現在google搜尋電子煙三個字出來會是什麼還是他們的官網"},{"start":13490.362,"end":13510.598,"text":"怎麼處理我講了三個禮拜了所有委員在上一次的專案報告裡面罵了那麼多結果到現在我今天如果我是打什麼很奇怪的特殊的暗號密碼拐彎抹角才搜尋到那可能大多數人已經搜尋不到了"},{"start":13511.926,"end":13525.09,"text":"但是現在不是現在是你搜尋網站一打開電子菸三個字大辣辣直接就搜尋到官網就出來了三天就到貨了便利商店就拿到了我們一點辦法都沒有嗎"},{"start":13528.985,"end":13554.326,"text":"來來來來來來來"},{"start":13554.506,"end":13569.646,"text":"抱歉喔 占用一些時間喔來剛剛署長我其實都很客氣啦可是剛剛署長講說有針對跨平台跨國開罰這是你10秒鐘前講的來過去對於這些跨平台開罰你罰了多少錢罰了誰罰了誰"},{"start":13573.857,"end":13583.422,"text":"之前不是告訴我們說那個是外國的公司網站設在外面所以你根本不知道人在哪裡他的地址在哪裡你的罰單要寄給誰啊"},{"start":13584.844,"end":13608.598,"text":"我們對於像臉書在臺灣的混國書我現在不是講臉書不要混淆不要委員不是那好糊弄的啦拜託一下我現在從頭到尾沒有講臉書不是臉書上面我現在直接講google你打開google搜尋關鍵字不用什麼特殊技能電子煙就搜尋到他們官方網站了結果"},{"start":13609.522,"end":13633.273,"text":"之前質詢你們講說因為那是跨國公司跨國企業他的IP機房設在國外所以我們抓不到沒辦法那時候我們講是說我沒有辦法抓到他們因為那可能涉及跨國犯罪那我們能不能跟速發部大家討論就至少在我們境內臺灣境內擋IP要求Google臺灣境內不能搜尋到因為他在臺灣就是不合法有些國家也許合法"},{"start":13633.993,"end":13634.533,"text":"我剛提到的我們是對這些平台開罰"},{"start":13655.182,"end":13661.348,"text":"那剛剛提到的遮蔽的部分我們也跟樹化部跟那個NCC一起討論那就是現在都還沒有遮蔽那各部會必須要來強力一起來合作部長"},{"start":13671.893,"end":13686.535,"text":"為什麼會那麼的語重心長就是因為我知道這個世界不完美但我們能夠做到除了法令的完整以外我們讓犯罪成本提高讓一般的民眾不會那麼容易取得違禁品"},{"start":13687.296,"end":13705.488,"text":"因為現在的狀況是如果說連一個12歲15歲的小朋友他只要會搜尋Google一打三天下訂便利商店就買的到了我們怎麼樣防止電子煙禁校園我們怎樣防止我們青少年不去接觸這才是最大的問題"},{"start":13708.524,"end":13709.225,"text":"這個我沒有辦法接受好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝紅門改委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":13736.206,"end":13737.749,"text":"那接下來我們請吳立法委員質詢"},{"start":13753.891,"end":13780.82,"text":"委員好部長好請教您一個問題您衛福部那邊有沒有資料或者你知不知道原住民族我們洗腎的人數您大概知道嗎所有原住民我們剛剛突破60萬人口60萬人您知道原住民洗腎人口多少嗎"},{"start":13784.397,"end":13797.003,"text":"我們洗腎的時候不用申報豬群所以要另外再查部長您之前很謝謝您跟我們一起推動原住民族健康法是"},{"start":13797.662,"end":13815.657,"text":"原住民族健康法為什麼要設立就我們講的嘛原住民的健康資料嘛要建立嘛要不然我們要解決健康不平等的現象連最基本的資料都沒有我們在談論的時候都不知道根據什麼好那我再請教部長您一個問題假設你有聽過納馬下鄉吧"},{"start":13821.119,"end":13822.64,"text":"算比較高喔"},{"start":13848.557,"end":13850.399,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13864.847,"end":13890.183,"text":"那個時候有開一個叫做安心上工可是那個時候我爭取是因為我們原住民部落不約而同每個部落都有自主防疫站所以當時希望給他們一些安心上工的一些費用好現在我有告訴原民會原民會有一個原住民就業基金我說啊我們這一些洗腎的人一個禮拜洗三天"},{"start":13890.964,"end":13919.094,"text":"他根本沒有辦法就業但是他又不是沒有能力工作我說能不能夠比照這種安心上工的概念一個禮拜能夠有20個小時讓他起碼有個15000塊不要讓他成為部落家裡的依賴人口讓他也能夠就他的能力去做事所以原民會已經有幫我做一個規劃原地及時就業協助那些洗腎人口就業我現在也想問"},{"start":13920.194,"end":13940.74,"text":"我們的偏鄉醫療部長我們就是因為醫療不足的問題造成我們常常吃成藥亂吃成藥加上一些其他的因素我們的洗腎人口很多啊很辛苦啊能不能夠例如有個行動醫療行動洗腎車這樣的概念來幫助我們偏鄉可以嗎"},{"start":13946.209,"end":13969.23,"text":"我想解決偏鄉這個問題是我們不可逃不可避開的責任當然這個可能要跟專家討論洗聖車這樣的一個特性性我其實我也關心過我也問過次長之外願意支持"},{"start":13970.305,"end":13988.564,"text":"如果專家覺得這樣的效益或者成果是不錯我覺得我們應該要支持偏鄉行動洗車可以嗎好那我接下來我要問另外一個問題你知道嗎我們的原建法已經通過一年"},{"start":13989.645,"end":14007.026,"text":"去年的12月29號在國衛院那邊基於原建法有一個原住民健康研究中心正式揭牌我只剩不到兩個禮拜就要投票選舉我還特別去參加揭牌啊我只是為了傳達一個概念啊"},{"start":14007.927,"end":14027.124,"text":"可不可以我們好不容易爭取到的這個是當時主條審查最後協商10秒我爭取到的四個字把文化安全四個字寫入法條中可是我說我們連這個原住民族健康研究中心難道這個主任不可以是我們原住民嗎一年了沒消沒息"},{"start":14033.154,"end":14046.463,"text":"部長文化安全的概念要從這個地方做起為什麼我這樣講你去看原住民族健康研究中心的網站空白一片連組織什麼都沒有因為他是用堅韌的給副院長堅韌的這樣對待我們原住民族健康研究中心好不容易等了十幾年的法"},{"start":14061.55,"end":14089.11,"text":"我們要從人開始做起我們的資料也沒有過去以來都是原民會拜託國衛院做這個原住民的健康統計年報那原住民健康統計年報是我們原住民族健康研究中心很重要的工作所以這個部分我拜託部長你們幫忙一下好不好然後最後一個議題我知道我沒有時間我講但是到我辦公室來談就是我講的"},{"start":14090.293,"end":14115.509,"text":"文件站對原住民太好了做得太好了過去蔡英文8年從以前不到1億的經費竟然現在一年可以超過13億也有我們的長照基金來做文件站做得太好了但是多少年來我們做詬病一直在唸在罵的就是沒有照顧到我們的重度失能老人"},{"start":14116.601,"end":14136.622,"text":"沒有沒有好不容易今年8月有一個原鄉住宿市長照機構在台東開幕平原你知道嗎光是三元平原平均餘命就差三歲結果呢你們也有一個獎勵補助的計劃竟然沒有例如像屏東縣這種大縣"},{"start":14138.644,"end":14159.298,"text":"原住民大縣也沒有任何一個原鄉因為你們說不需要床位足夠你就沒有文化安全的概念了嘛怎麼會認為這樣子呢所以我覺得這個部分不要用捕破網的方式你們說不需要床位"},{"start":14160.558,"end":14186.845,"text":"然後用了一個多元發展計畫沒有納入山地園鄉我們要住宿室你們給我社區室然後呢你們的方法叫做多元結果呢創新我也不知道在創新什麼你們所謂的多元就是日照加夜照我告訴各位加拖連夜照都不要做他說很危險我又沒有醫生我重症患者我怎麼處理而且我也要喘息啊"},{"start":14187.825,"end":14202.853,"text":"沒有不需要他們不要所以到最後我們的重症患者我們的重度失能還是需要住宿型的安養中心結果遠離部落排不到公費床位然後也沒有能力去就在家裡"},{"start":14204.249,"end":14230.251,"text":"所以很辛苦我希望賴總統已經長照3.0了他也講了不能不包含原鄉住宿型的機構不要用一般的模式我們既然有原建法既然大家承認文化安全文化敏感就是表示要積極性的差別待遇我們不能用一般的標準去看這件事所以呢因為時間的關係我希望這個部分可以到辦公室我們一起討論可以嗎"},{"start":14231.072,"end":14231.552,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":14258.683,"end":14262.024,"text":"好謝謝主席那請我們邱部長好部長部長在上個月底我們中國大陸福建省有公布了他的最新的政策措施就是拋出漳州市5年內要向臺灣的護理人員"},{"start":14288.905,"end":14289.205,"text":"當然有當然有"},{"start":14310.592,"end":14330.88,"text":"那針對這部分因為我們護理人員其實現在已經非常缺乏那像澳洲美國其實也都一直有在像我們在挖角那現在又中國大陸又加入這個行列那不知道我們衛福部針對這部分有沒有什麼措施來因應謝謝委員的關心關心護理人才的"},{"start":14332.901,"end":14359.811,"text":"的一個培育跟留任那這個部分我們國家本來就就是設定了一個三大方向的時候策略一直在積極進行希望不管是越多人來念然後考照率能夠提高留任的工作場域能夠更好薪水能夠更高對我知道有我們像我們針對這部分有推一些措施比如說剛剛有提到那個"},{"start":14360.871,"end":14382.207,"text":"大陸提的價錢我們這裡已經都比他高了我們這裡的薪水都比他高了所以大概那個不太可能可是你有沒有覺得說因為我知道我們部裡當然有一些措施那像有沒有一些比較具體的措施能夠留住這種護理人才其實"},{"start":14383.408,"end":14403.145,"text":"像八大醫治團體其實他們都有一直來提出聲明說要優化更好的護理工作環境以及為辛苦的護理人員加薪其實最好的方式還是保障我們的健保點值那針對這部分部長你的看法呢"},{"start":14406.311,"end":14422.344,"text":"我想給醫護人員能夠加薪更好的一個薪資我覺得是現在政府一直在努力的包括我們現在希望提高健保電子投入這個更多的健保資源"},{"start":14423.084,"end":14443.243,"text":"其實重點就是改善一個工作環境讓我們的醫療人員能夠更好的薪水能夠留得住來照顧人對所以針對八大醫事團體針對說他們覺得這個最好最落實的政策方式就是保障健保點子0.95那這部分部長你同意嗎"},{"start":14445.545,"end":14465.618,"text":"在政府這個部分不只其實只要大家我們現在投入的健保的資源其實有700多億所以明年度會有更多很多的讓大家醫療工作整個國家的醫療工作人員能夠有更有量能來照顧保障健保點子0.95基本上"},{"start":14470.311,"end":14487.29,"text":"他們提出這個應該是最有效的方法這部分部長你認不認同我們一致支援只要大家管理得當的話我相信甚至可以超過0.95對所以保障健保點值對於我們"},{"start":14488.482,"end":14511.421,"text":"對於留住這護理人員也是一個具體措施的方法嘛對不對保障護理人員有更多啦我們直接跟他加薪直接跟他獎勵金這個可能跟點子就沒關係我們現在用公務預算保障健保點子也是一個很有效的方法那是一部分啦那但是直接像現在是用公務預算直接給他獎勵"},{"start":14512.102,"end":14528.11,"text":"所以保障健保點值也是一個有效的方法嗎?你應該不反對吧?不反對嘛對不對?好,那我們衛福部跟立法院在這次保障健保點值協商什麼時候通過這組決議?部長記得嗎?上次是9月吧?"},{"start":14534.98,"end":14547.475,"text":"好沒關係他是在113年7月16號7月16號那可是我看你們健保署網站最新公布的預估點值在113年第二季"},{"start":14550.498,"end":14568.371,"text":"那我們看到他這個浮動點值居然退回到108年的水準只剩下0.8847那不但沒有執行我們幾個月前的主決議居然這個健保點值還退步到5年前的水準這部分部長你有沒有注意到"},{"start":14572.233,"end":14593.303,"text":"我的意思是說不但沒有到0.95而且還退到108年的水準所以這部分我是認為部長之前不管在委員會還是在總質詢在媒體之前你都承諾會努力在明年6月我們達成健保點子保有0.95的目標"},{"start":14594.884,"end":14609.059,"text":"沒有錯吧這個部長在媒體也說過我一再重申我們會努力而且在努力之下以及現在行政院挹注的支援之下我相信應該會在有應該是會所以部長你也是設定這個目標嗎對對對"},{"start":14611.121,"end":14633.668,"text":"那可是我們現在看到不但沒有往這個目標前進而且還倒退到108年0847你現在提的這個部分是第二季啦對103年第二季就是4到6月啦那是自從大家的鼓勵之下那所以我們現在降勢用命支援益助希望"},{"start":14635.052,"end":14654.009,"text":"一直有提升其實像第三季在幾個區的一個點子就相當都有成長的不錯對我今天提出就是希望部長你不要忘記你的承諾跟自己說過的話要在明年6月達成那因為你現在"},{"start":14654.73,"end":14679.985,"text":"我看沒有往這目標前進還反而倒退我們是非常憂心部長說的一定是往前進的啦我怕部長說的這個會變成空頭支票大家會一起努力但是一定會前進部長你說會朝這方向努力那可是我看到衛福部這次提出的公務預算只有300多億那裡面300多億還包含了撥補"},{"start":14681.466,"end":14699.516,"text":"國民年金的130多億那如果以這種預算你認為衛福部明年6月有辦法達到0.95嗎根本沒有看到你的預算你要怎麼做那個是公務預算因為其實所有的部門就只有衛福部"},{"start":14700.736,"end":14728.175,"text":"增加最多增加了300多億那你看喔你這個健保署提供的點子的數據再加上你的預算部長你明年6月底有信心達成嗎我們是很憂心看不到我們要單獨來看看那個健保這個部分就是說從公務很多從原來是應該在健保我們移出公務預算這個就100多億那部長你有信心達成嗎然後加上總額總額我們"},{"start":14731.598,"end":14742.695,"text":"這次最高推估也到達5.5我們會往這方面來努力那如果照你現在這樣的預算你認為明年6月你有信心達成嗎"},{"start":14744.076,"end":14770.955,"text":"我想大家一起努力應該很有機會達成你有沒有保證你有沒有辦法保證這種點子是一種各區管理的事情有時候可是你在委員會總質詢還有媒體訪問之前你都一直說要朝這個目標可是我們現在看你這個編列預算我們覺得像空口支票我們是另外還有健保健保這次的總額增加非常多所以部長你還是朝這個目標在邁進嘛對不對"},{"start":14774.057,"end":14795.108,"text":"當然一定全力以赴好那針對以上的部分我們希望針對我們衛福部一個月內之內可以把護理人員流失到國外醫院任職的人數能夠提出這個數據還有檢討報告這部分有辦法做到嗎以利我們後面護理流財的政策"},{"start":14796.277,"end":14819.043,"text":"怎麼去進行我們委員所隨時的我們來瞭解好麻煩你把這個數據做出來應該我們現在國內的護理條因為我們現在是非常憂心啦現在護理荒啦然後而且也看得到我們現在各國都在挖這個護理人員所以把這個數據統計出來然後再提出這個檢討報告還有針對我們健保點子0.95的部分"},{"start":14824.824,"end":14850.644,"text":"也希望提出這個計畫因為從這個預算真的看不出怎麼樣子去進行也讓我們能夠追蹤衛福部保障健保點值施行的進度然後讓我們能夠估這個預期的成效可以嗎好那這部分請部長要來讓我們來完成還有針對我們一直之前有提出部桃新屋分院"},{"start":14851.755,"end":14873.534,"text":"我現在看不到我們部桃新屋分院的進度捏部長記不記得我們還要去考察過這個一直有進度這個謝謝委員齁非常關心我也是關心那邊海線那邊真的非常感動也非常重要啦齁所以我們義務會在這邊一直努力那現在的進度呢現在已經準備在接受第二次的審查這林市長講"},{"start":14874.835,"end":14893.542,"text":"委員跟報告委員就是我們那個135床那其實是他的一般病床還包含的是6床的特殊病床還有8間的手術房因為這部分是我們經過我們的外部委員特別是在義工在另外的我們的整個建設的裡面我們要把他的設置標準弄得最符合我們現在的規定那"},{"start":14893.962,"end":14909.142,"text":"已經經過第二次的這個審查了在11月中旬大概一個禮拜多那委員有提出一些這個修正的意見那等部立桃園醫院這邊會把修正意見給我們我們就會再進入部裡面再送到行政院去"},{"start":14909.642,"end":14927.853,"text":"部長因為這個我們也去考察過你知道沿海醫療品質這些資源真的是非常匱乏可是你說這個有進度可是我看114年這醫療藥品基金會的預算書上面我沒有看到有關於我們部桃新屋分院"},{"start":14929.124,"end":14948.201,"text":"大樓動工的所有任何的預算都沒有看到他的預算因為要先經過我剛講的就是說我們的建這個蓋醫院的委員看了以後那要報行政院行政院這邊因為他們要去爭取公建計畫那經過國防會這邊同意以後我們才會編列預算那預估這個19.3億的經費我們會分5年來編列"},{"start":14953.726,"end":14976.483,"text":"那有關新聞分院的預算大概什麼時候會編列我們大概是會在115年就是明年如果行政院這邊通過我們就會所以明年會編列就是列到115年好因為我看114年是沒有你說115年會編列因為他的行政流程還沒有完成好那希望針對這部分我們大家都非常關切那趕快進度"},{"start":14977.023,"end":15001.883,"text":"一定要來按照這個進度來進行那115年會編列我們把那個行政流程趕快完成那還有針對我們部桃樂生療養院樂生療養院從日記時代1930年創立到現在他之前也是收容麻風病患可是他現在已經轉型成為地區型的綜合醫院那針對這部分"},{"start":15003.504,"end":15023.717,"text":"因為他一直掛上療養院地方的鄉親很多民眾說一直都還被誤解成他這是精神病院的療養院那民眾還有很多地方鄉親都希望是不是能夠證明為衛生福利部熱身綜合醫院是不是有這個證明的可能機會"},{"start":15026.911,"end":15050.497,"text":"公務委員報告陸森醫院當然就是說已經是非常年代已久那從日據時代到現在那他其實是已經是地區的教學醫院他已經評鑑通過所以他有將近20個科別那188床的健身床剛剛您提到他非常正確就是我們現在漢森月明慢慢的就越來越現在只剩下56名的漢森月明他原本有一個漢森的病房那邊是135床這"},{"start":15052.017,"end":15075.306,"text":"後面那邊是不是要來做改建這是一種方向阿第二個是您剛關心的那個要改名字因為會牽涉到這個熱身療養院的定位因為還是有一些所謂過去對文資文史這一塊那我們當然也是會責成熱身療養院一起來評估相關的醫療資源那特別是他所在的地方將近有10%的桃園願民桃園的民眾有來熱身療養院"},{"start":15078.387,"end":15101.362,"text":"好我今天會提出就是因為有很多的學生的家長跟學子他們有時候去那邊看病看診可是他拿一些藥帶回去是熱身療養院他說有時候會造成他們的困擾有時候其他的同學學生看到之後會有一些隱憂所以才會提出這個是不是直接"},{"start":15102.122,"end":15111.011,"text":"他居然已經是綜合醫院是不是就可以把他改名為樂森綜合醫院這樣子是不是能夠解決地方的一些困擾跟疑惑"},{"start":15113.346,"end":15137.909,"text":"好 我們會再質詢齁 這個可能也不是叫中衛院比較我們部立的比較少用的就是樂生醫院好 沒關係 他就是能夠證明 然後因為他現在是地區型的綜合醫院那就請我們衛福部這邊怎麼樣來給他一個證明好不好好 這個我們因為已經有提出這個疑惑跟誤解了那我也希望說能夠解決地方鄉親居然有提出 而且"},{"start":15138.77,"end":15163.163,"text":"覺得改圍醫院也是實至名歸因為它現在確實是地方型的綜合醫院好 這個當然剛剛執行長有講要多方考量那我希望這個因為我們有提出真的是地方的需求那我相信說這個改圍醫院應該也是適得其所是好 那請部長這邊來跟我們協助幫忙好 了解好 謝謝好 謝謝圖委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":15167.952,"end":15187.362,"text":"接下來我們請吳春成委員質詢報告委員為我們在羅志強委員質詢完畢後休息20分鐘好謝謝主席我們有請部長"},{"start":15196.806,"end":15212.357,"text":"委員好部長好看到你就很開心像笑面佛一樣的謝謝現在這樣的環境很需要你這樣子謝謝帶給大家信心剛才那個圖委員講那個樂生療養院為什麼要改名"},{"start":15220.902,"end":15237.208,"text":"這要證明啊,證明很重要對不對,所以這個部長就是你有很開放的那種思維,不會僵死在那個地方,所以你有同意說改成熱身醫院嘛,這真的好聽多方考量啦,因為文資文史的歷史"},{"start":15241.77,"end":15251.137,"text":"他本身現在就是醫院嘛,有醫院的功能他本來就有醫院的功能嘛,所以證明很重要所以部長你認同把老人引髮族也證明為壯世代嗎?嗯"},{"start":15261.075,"end":15261.415,"text":"當機是不是"},{"start":15291.656,"end":15318.024,"text":"有阿強的陰謀阿強的陰謀你現在時間上幫我停一下這一個有不是這一個是嗎OK好那你呢下一頁呢不對啊你弄到舊的是不是是不是你檔案剛才為什麼會跑掉"},{"start":15321.363,"end":15325.726,"text":"對這樣來臨的一個社會你覺得它是一個悲慘世界"},{"start":15349.504,"end":15375.736,"text":"還是一個美麗新世界我們可以創造美麗新世界所以你認為他可以嘲笑美麗新世界一定要這樣做為什麼一定要這樣子嘛對不對沒得選擇一定要這樣子嘛齁因為為什麼要問這個問題喔這一個的你的信心跟你的想像會決定你的政策你的解方是如果你把它當作是悲慘世界你提出來的都是悲慘解方"},{"start":15376.815,"end":15390.826,"text":"是嗎?對不對?哪一種思維就會往哪一方面對哪一種思維?那你覺得我們現在政府普遍的大概都把他當作什麼?悲慘世界"},{"start":15392.014,"end":15392.875,"text":"先在這裏"},{"start":15416.943,"end":15434.564,"text":"OK因為這個少子高齡化社會定型影響層面很多那這個衛福部在這裡面扮演非常重要的角色不管是少子化不管是高齡化都是你們衛福部的事情因為其他部位都不想管"},{"start":15436.939,"end":15463.136,"text":"大家一起努力啦都沒有在管啦我剛才質詢文化部回來他們就整個就變一千萬而已啊而且還是做什麼那個就是各部會就是覺得60歲以後就沒辦法啦青菜應付就好了啦我60幾歲了所以基本上你也是現在要自求多福自求多福"},{"start":15464.216,"end":15478.656,"text":"政府沒人在理你但是這個越來越多問題越嚴重衛福部若繼續這樣子一定會崩潰你也是承受不住的所以"},{"start":15483.564,"end":15505.133,"text":"總之呢是不是要請衛福部我們現在整個基本上的認知就把這高齡者視為叫引法族為什麼要證明因為引法族每天包括大家討論的就是臥床的問題就是醫院的問題就是一種社會負債的問題安養晚年特殊對待"},{"start":15506.84,"end":15513.367,"text":"那衛福部可不可以把它翻轉成為你就停留在那邊我時間快到了你不要再變來變去了"},{"start":15517.723,"end":15541.361,"text":"那個變成壯世代想像他有30年的健康餘命這叫做美麗新世界30年健康餘命我們現在可以為他們做什麼我們應該要怎麼設計包括整個社福的一個的機構他們需要只脫離生理安全的需求而渴望自我實現他們希望能夠促進世代的循環"},{"start":15543.411,"end":15557.191,"text":"需要精彩的第三人聲OK這個就是OK所以呢好我前面我也跟那個講一下就是上個禮拜資訊月"},{"start":15558.533,"end":15587.237,"text":"我壯世代跟速發部合作辦了一個因為資訊院通常都是年輕人在玩電腦的地方我今年跟速發部合作辦了一個叫壯世代董資樂園董資訊的樂園而且你那個名稱要活潑一點董資董資因為他們有董資券嘛政府都有發董資券所以叫董資樂園你知道創造了什麼爆發壯世代人潮"},{"start":15588.88,"end":15609.744,"text":"所謂的你們所謂的銀髮族大批的銀髮族大概有幾萬人進入資訊業每一個人玩得不亦樂乎所以呢你看抒發部都可以這樣做衛福部可以這樣做嗎系各部會為什麼如果你過去都叫做樂齡什麼資訊區有人要去啦"},{"start":15613.769,"end":15613.909,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15633.035,"end":15645.6,"text":"改變一點身份改變一點思維這就叫美好的新世界這叫做美好新世界它會創造很多我以前衛福部我們是不是可以一起努力來推動所以最後"},{"start":15653.612,"end":15663.44,"text":"最後一點就是我現在在推動撞促法撞失在政策的產業發展促進法我們要重要的一點"},{"start":15665.047,"end":15684.827,"text":"就是要做一個雙軌制雙軌制的一個現在除了照護性的政策之外是不是需要一個發展性的政策因為照護性的政策大概只能現在照顧16%的這個失能需要健康長照護的但是我們有84%龐大的這一些"},{"start":15687.549,"end":15698.256,"text":"你完全沒有政策是不是可以發展壯世代的政策成為一個在我們未來不管在做社福的思維當中一個雙軌的一個制度這個請問部長你贊不贊成"},{"start":15700.9,"end":15724.734,"text":"創世代您的任期是相當的大那相關的年齡層其實我們每一個年齡層其實從出生以後到安老到善終所有的生命歷程我們都有需要照顧的任務所以請放心在創世代所包圍的範圍其實相關的一個健康照顧的政策都會有"},{"start":15725.114,"end":15744.123,"text":"因為這個思維不一樣照顧者就是一個要支援狀態是要給支援只要你政府的政策方向的引導不要都從社福的思維都是大家都好像是社福支援的一個爭奪戰事實上狀態可以減少很多的社福的支柱這個非常好的方向好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝吳委員"},{"start":15751.973,"end":15752.453,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":15770.663,"end":15796.791,"text":"委員好部長好近年屢屢爆出各種層出不窮的食安事件那今年尤其今年就是剛開始的時候爆出很多件沸沸揚揚那但是最近我在追蹤後續關於食安的問題有些問題可能要就教一下部長那食藥署在顯示比方說顯示香辛料的抽驗不合的這個比例"},{"start":15799.092,"end":15817.501,"text":"從111年的5.9%暴增到112年的16.5%那今年也甚至還有所謂的蘇丹紅事件你認為現在目前為什麼會有這麼大幅度的暴增呢那這是反映我們的邊境的一個查驗的一些遇到的一些問題呢"},{"start":15819.466,"end":15841.756,"text":"當然是報告委員我們當然是社會比較關注到食安所以在查緝的量能就必須增加去查如果有任何違反食安的問題就會呈現出來所以是不是這樣子他的事件就會比較呈現我想把"},{"start":15842.916,"end":15856.054,"text":"事件呈現出來然後去把它解決它應該是一個正面的方向重要的是我們有沒有大家一起努力來落實我們食安五環來保障我們人民食安的健康"},{"start":15857.6,"end":15879.995,"text":"那我跟部長說當然你可以講說這個查驗我支持查驗的那個量要大那這樣子那個涵蓋面就比較夠可是我今天也是要提醒一下說目前來看真的我覺得我們的食品安全的那個問題跟威脅其實越來越大這點希望衛福部能夠多加注意比方說國際食品安全的警訊食藥署"},{"start":15881.296,"end":15883.439,"text":"紅黃綠燈資訊的發布量從109年的414則到112年是大增為1849則"},{"start":15891.892,"end":15917.646,"text":"今年截止到7月到了1353則推估全年會到2300則甚至首次會出現紅燈的警訊我在想說現在這個問題坦白講你如果從414到所謂的2300那已經是將近5倍多了那這麼嚴重的一個狀況不知道現在目前衛福部的因應的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":15924.778,"end":15943.096,"text":"報告委員 第一個是先回復委員剛剛在問部長的說說為什麼我們檢查的那個比例持續升高那跟委員報告的是我們現在第一個就是我們透過AI的系統我們增加那個抽查率抽查的高危險性的抽查率所以"},{"start":15943.776,"end":15962.253,"text":"後來抽中的率比例就會比較高第二個件事是因為現在有實案我們有很多都是逐批查驗那逐批查驗以後後來就會檢查的比較高這是第一就是要回復委員為什麼最近的抽查的比例有涵那個實案問題的越來越高第二個就是剛剛委員在問這個"},{"start":15963.814,"end":15983.404,"text":"紅黃綠燈"},{"start":15983.464,"end":16005.624,"text":"那我就提醒現在其實不只台灣內部啦這國際環境上食品安全問題其實也在變得比較我覺得環境面變得比較更嚴峻你就發現這個食品安全問題其實但我也跟你講我覺得跟我們的環境變化包括現在科技發展還是有點關係所以食品安全的那個問題也變得更加的複雜所以希望我們的衛福再努力一下"},{"start":16006.024,"end":16029.389,"text":"那最後一個根據食藥署統計110年到112年有2220批次的食品不合格但是只有1.04%的批次被要求銷毀其他都是採退運處理那這種退運的方式是一個合適的方式嗎請教部長我想應該按照我們現在的法規來落實"},{"start":16033.119,"end":16039.596,"text":"因為過去你也知道曾經發生退運之後他又換一個方式又跑回來嘛有發生過在蘇安紅事件上就曾經遇過"},{"start":16045.38,"end":16065.904,"text":"報告委員那個是如果現在是查出蘇丹色素我們一律是銷毀是不得推運對但我是講蘇丹因為蘇丹紅鬧得很淡這麼做那代表其他部分基本上為什麼不這麼做呢你蘇丹紅可以這麼做其他部分為什麼不這麼做我們再回去研究一下跟委員報告"},{"start":16068.598,"end":16068.618,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":16096.076,"end":16123.746,"text":"羅智祥委員,謝謝部長你兩個要挖不挖?挖啦,你挖不挖?你先講,我說你講了要吃飯啊你還在挖?好,我們請羅智祥委員質詢對不起,我已經準備好了,不好意思,衛福部部長,謝謝"},{"start":16130.256,"end":16155.064,"text":"誰要署署長一起好不好好來署長齁昨天我們談了很多啊部長對於我生理食鹽水進口專案錯誤的法條引用還有我點出了三項人事案有問題你們在第一時間開記者會要打臉我然後現在呢我想你已經查清楚了沒沒有要打臉啦我們只是說明清楚了查清楚了沒你有沒有引用錯誤法條"},{"start":16158.332,"end":16169.716,"text":"原來引用的法條可能不是那麼周全經過討論不是那麼周全所以你現在有私底下在修其他的法條希望能夠周全對不對對不對對不對所以你引用錯誤法條在第一時間開記者會打臉我你要不要跟我道歉"},{"start":16184.759,"end":16196.668,"text":"石耀署署長有沒有開記者會以及第三項人事案你們現在私底下請他走人因為他是哲學系這個部分查清楚了沒回答"},{"start":16197.689,"end":16211.54,"text":"你是不是有提供錯誤資訊給部長,讓部長不太知道的情況之下回答我,有沒有?對,所以是不是當時我所舉證的都是事實?你已經浪費了我一分多鐘,有沒有?部長,你要不要直接跟我道歉?"},{"start":16225.796,"end":16248.142,"text":"報告委員因為那個時候是我們的還在收集資訊的時候當時而且我有跟委員報告說我們當時最早請用55條的原因是有那一個時空背景但是發現你們去請示了其他的部會說這樣子不適宜所以你們現在修整法條對不對跟全國百姓講一下你們是不是引用錯誤"},{"start":16252.085,"end":16280.541,"text":"是就是不是就不是嘛對我們現在就是這件事情我發生了以後我們消息檢討就是說我那個55條法條引用事實上是不正確的那我們現在就開始用27我不是說要讓你丟臉只是說你第一時間回答委員的東西是錯誤的你想要打臉我但事實上你們內部去檢討以後發現自己有錯趕快改進但是你們開記者會去打臉委員對每個委員來說公平嗎你們是不是應該加以去佐證"},{"start":16281.946,"end":16310.515,"text":"所以部長我再講一次進出口輸出役專案引用錯誤法條以及人事案你是不是應該跟全民道歉我想我們在10號時可以說是在發生事件以後非常緊急來這是有關於人民生命跟醫療用品所以你引用錯誤法條導致要害基金不賠所以要打消保法所以你要去逛百貨公司要記得累積點數然後還可以滿千送百"},{"start":16311.824,"end":16329.593,"text":"這就是錯誤所以我一直在講我也一心一意啊我擔心你做錯了然後讓我們要害經濟部賠償最後受害的是人民啊所以你的目的良善我的目的就不良善還是你要感受一下目的良善所以是不是有錯就更正"},{"start":16337.552,"end":16362.104,"text":"因為這是整個過程那也是我看起來你要跟我拖到最後30秒整個過程的一個用最適當的一個沒關係後續我還有很多的料沒關係我們繼續來竟然看不出你的誠意看不出你願意改正我想全民都在看那部長最近勞動部一個職場的霸凌事件全國震驚現在各個立委都收到了這封信我們一一看一下"},{"start":16362.924,"end":16388.308,"text":"就是集管署的組長霸凌屬下的一個事件請問現在調查結果是如何我們昨天啟動調查一個禮拜之內會查清楚究責相關的流程到底要怎麼做誰要負責調查會不會立場偏薄我告訴你昨天已經一個勞動部他調查出來的結果大家全民能夠接受嗎他開的記者會全民能夠接受嗎"},{"start":16389.289,"end":16407.099,"text":"不要再有立場偏頗不要再為自己找藉口內部的調查全民都失望這就是為什麼我們需要聽證權為什麼要國會改革讓我們來調查才能夠找出事實而不是你們的內部調查全民都已經不相信了可是現在呢"},{"start":16407.859,"end":16419.822,"text":"又有這樣子的一個土皇帝就在你們衛福部集管署昨天我在這邊也一直講各個部位請注意把你們內部有相關案例都應該如實的找出來"},{"start":16421.479,"end":16446.074,"text":"昨天說兩個禮拜今天變一個禮拜我現在要通知你立場有沒有偏頗誰要來調查你要不要講清楚說明白絕對不偏頗我請事由機關署機關署委員好那我們現在是有找兩位外部的專家就是一個是法律專家一個是心理諮商的專家另外我們署內有兩個委員但是都跟這位組長不熟會組成委員會那會"},{"start":16447.435,"end":16468.075,"text":"主要就是說我們會先今天開始其實我們已經有一個匿名的問卷給這個我們的主員來同仁來填那根據那個問卷收來之後我們會去請這個委員來決定要來面談的一個同仁那這個部會也會找那個之前有離職的一個同仁來做詢問以上"},{"start":16468.635,"end":16485.547,"text":"我想事情已經發生已經有潛力了齁今天他開記者會不開還好一開全民爆炸相信你們應該有智慧不要重蹈覆轍最後我要提醒你中興大學申請了複設醫院案共499創你知不支持部長"},{"start":16486.687,"end":16488.708,"text":"目前教育部還沒回溫因為他是教育部體系的學校所以會有雙重主管"},{"start":16506.721,"end":16522.98,"text":"我想雙重主管的問題交一步我會再來今天難得來到衛福部我希望部長你可以支持在台中這樣子醫療量能夠提升這是我們台中市民還有民意代表該做的這部分麻煩你了解可以嗎我想我們會非常客觀的來評估來"},{"start":16524.963,"end":16542.582,"text":"來協助整個臺中的一個醫療資源能夠充分好最後我想波波醫生最近很多的報導都指出有這樣子的900個波波醫生我想請問你你的管控要如何你知道他們都在哪裡職業嗎這部分你們有登記嗎有醫事人員的系統可以追查到醫事登錄的一個職業場所嗎有嗎"},{"start":16546.775,"end":16555.942,"text":"你第一個委員所寫的這個波波醫生900個是報載指出有900個波波醫生在等那個等牙醫嗎不只是牙醫波波醫生對不起你沒有在狀況內報載登載的這麼大900個波波醫生網路都在討論我知道900個那個名單那個"},{"start":16575.785,"end":16582.353,"text":"所以你有沒有相關的這些系統能夠追蹤這些人的疑似登錄職業場所有沒有"},{"start":16589.552,"end":16606.824,"text":"委員我補充一下我們只要是中華民國合格的醫師我們其實有醫事管理系統會知道他在哪裡執業可是血力這件事情並不在我們登錄系統裡面以上"},{"start":16607.384,"end":16629.969,"text":"我想名單牽涉到各支我們都尊重但是部長要怎麼增加民眾的信任度本席這才是真正在乎的臺中市民有資的權利就醫的選擇權所以我想請問部長在臺中地區有哪幾家醫療院所是有波波醫師牙醫師職業看診你可以告訴我們嗎這我們手頭上應該沒有這種資料"},{"start":16631.351,"end":16657.722,"text":"所以就是沒有掌握嗎你要就是承認你跟全民承認你沒有這樣的資料沒有我們無法掌握我們是說好第一個就是醫師的考試要一定要有執照然後他的繼續的教育訓練包括他的專科醫師的訓練還有他執業以後的繼續教育我想時間有限喔我會去追蹤這些案子我也跟你告訴我們今天所講的這三個案子麻煩你後續有相關的資料請給我們知道一下好的是好謝謝"},{"start":16662.306,"end":16678.562,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝何委員繼續我們請張雅玲委員質詢要不要戴鴨尾 鴨尾可以先吃沒關係啦不要不要 要善待自己齁一直拖啦 梁祥銘講話還要讓你們吃飯啦 真夭壽"},{"start":16685.674,"end":16686.014,"text":"首先我們先來邀請部長 謝謝"},{"start":16707.19,"end":16731.237,"text":"委員好我想在開始之前我剛剛有聽到委員在講說這一些的霸凌事件非常需要來秉公處理要有第三方的介入來完整的呈現因為這一條人命離去之後應該要留給我們的是教訓以及改革我想部長也是非常認同那我也要反駁一下前一位羅廷偉委員說的就是"},{"start":16732.958,"end":16757.237,"text":"國會聽證權已經被大法官判定為違憲不要再拿這一件事情來趁機作亂這是一個違憲的事件不需要再拿聽證權所以我希望衛福部一定要來徹底的調查這件事情那剛剛也有講到一個禮拜要提出調查報告這個我們也非常的期待我們也會持續的來關注那接下來我就回到我今天原本要來質詢的題目"},{"start":16759.684,"end":16759.744,"text":"國建署長"},{"start":16775.199,"end":16796.137,"text":"我想要針對於找聊預算的部分因為其實我們在講找聊是非常非常重要的一件事情那我們現在其實找聊的量能其實都還不足沒有達到一個世界應該有的一個標準但是我卻看到在我們人數上升的時候我們找聊的預算卻跟去年相比少了1500萬"},{"start":16798.908,"end":16806.232,"text":"那我有點不太了解就是說明明人數就在增加啊我們量能根本都還沒到為什麼我的預算會少1500萬可不可以請署長做個說明"},{"start":16811.201,"end":16829.873,"text":"我想我們在找來的部分分成兩個部分一個是聯評中心的部件的部分那另外一個是我們今年7月要開始推行的6次的一個成長評估的部分那這兩個加起來我們總共的建位應該是在5.5到6億之間"},{"start":16832.857,"end":16859.334,"text":"對所以所以應該是說我們是有增加嗎跟去年來說我們增加多少呢大概增加了1.73億左右1.73億就是來做剛剛講的部件對不對跟6次的部分好那我想再確認一件事情就是說我知道我們現在在做找療的時候呢如果他今天是透過這個兒童找療的特別門診的話其實我們是會有通報跟追蹤的機制對嗎我理解是這樣子"},{"start":16860.114,"end":16879.811,"text":"但是如果今天家長是透過一般復健門診的話我們其實就沒有通報了對嗎也沒有辦法去追蹤他還是可以走原來的通報系統但是我確認過醫院現在是這個一般的復健門診進來的是沒有進入通報系統"},{"start":16880.834,"end":16895.042,"text":"因為通報系統在中央是社交組在地方的話是在社政我們來瞭解一下好那這部分是不是可以跟社政一起來瞭解一下因為我想喔因為現實上就是這些孩子有可能因為我們家長"},{"start":16896.222,"end":16920.184,"text":"家長的一些覺得這是貼標籤的行為或是他家族壓力不希望自己的小孩有狀況或者是說關於保險所以造成了這些孩子最後沒有進入這個系統來去協助他那這會造成什麼樣子的問題就是等他到上學了之後跟人際衝突那開始就會產生我們所謂的這些學校的衝突霸凌事件都非常有關聯"},{"start":16921.525,"end":16936.92,"text":"所以這個變成是早期的對家長的教育非常的重要所以我想社家屬也責無旁貸一定要來積極的積極的來協助做更多的溝通跟瞭解為什麼他們不願意通報以及該如何協助他們通報"},{"start":16938.792,"end":16955.032,"text":"這部分社家署跟國建署是不是可以一起來合作呢我們來研議看看竟然當然先導鼓勵還有怎麼樣來強化兩邊的一個連結因為這個通報系統能夠更完整好那這個署長呢社家署"},{"start":16956.536,"end":16981.132,"text":"有關通報的部分其實不管是在門診或者是在找療藥系統他其實都是可以去通報但是我問了我問的是大型醫院他們是說一般是沒有通報的那沒關係因為我想你的理解跟現場執行上面出現了落差那就變成說因為我詢問的還是超大型醫院"},{"start":16981.832,"end":16998.737,"text":"他都沒有通報可是他這邊是接收到最多的嘛那到底發生了什麼事情那這部分就請社家署跟國健署一起來了解好嗎那我想齁盤點一下我們現在的各大型醫院縣市到底有沒有做一般的門診的通報這部分可以做個盤點嗎我們來調查一下啦好那大概什麼時候可以給我調查結果一般的福建門診"},{"start":17011.946,"end":17037.247,"text":"這大概什麼時候可以給我一個調查結果大概多久因為我想這是回到兒少最佳的話利益原則所以這大概什麼時候可以給我兩個禮拜好不好好兩個禮拜謝謝那再來就是我要請我們謝謝國建署署長可以請回謝謝那我想要在社家署也可以請回接下來我想要請教部長就是說"},{"start":17039.79,"end":17055.446,"text":"我們在我想學生自殺率、智商率節節上升而且昨年增加大幅度的增加我想這是不爭的事實我想部長也非常非常的清楚那尤其是在國中端的部分可以幫我按下一頁嗎?他沒有反應"},{"start":17057.343,"end":17079.869,"text":"我們現在是有一些心理的我們國家是有提供一些心理諮商的服務在15到45歲所以我看這張表我想部長你可以看一下在國中的這一條黃色線10到14歲它裡面其實包含的是國中端的部分這一段其實也是在增加可是我們現在其實並沒有提供相關的青壯世代的心理健康支持方案"},{"start":17080.729,"end":17110.203,"text":"那我在想我們是不是可以針對國中端的這個部分一起來提供來研議啦是不是可以提供這個免費心理諮商的補助之前我其實也有質詢過教育部了那希望他們可以來跟衛福部一起來努力這個部分我想要聽聽看衛福部的意見針對國中端延伸到國中端這一部分好我們會跟教育部來一起協同努力那新建室要不要看狀況報告一下"},{"start":17111.689,"end":17140.226,"text":"謝謝委員關切這個呃國中生的一個呃自殺的一個問題喔那因為現在學校呃在教育部的部分是有呃學校三級輔導的一個機制那興建師這邊主要是在社區這邊做資源的部件但是針對國中生的心理健康我們也非常的關心所以我們會跟教育部這邊一起來演繹如何在呃國中這個階段能夠加強他們的心理健康那我希望可以在一個月內跟教育部討論好嗎呃好那結束之後各位的書面報告謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":17140.686,"end":17141.086,"text":"請楊雄英委員質詢"},{"start":17160.362,"end":17186.15,"text":"委員好部長本週日11月24號呢反波波大遊行的三大訴求那這個方向呢我想你在這個衛福部在上個禮拜五你也宣布你就說暫緩海外醫學生赴偏鄉實習規定是嗎對然後接下來呢這個你本週二也又表示是不是"},{"start":17187.056,"end":17187.356,"text":"同樣的立場,同樣的狀況"},{"start":17217.652,"end":17226.141,"text":"應該是增加因為這55個我們加強他的設備鼓勵本國的牙醫師這55個但是你說是要以本國的學歷優先嗎資深醫師也可以去啊我們是鼓勵資深醫師能夠去嘛"},{"start":17236.992,"end":17253.628,"text":"鼓勵那但是人家願不願意來所以我們現在會用各種辦法第一個我們譬如說他願意到衛生所去執業然後我們就跟他買相關的所有的設備儀器馬上當地的無牙醫的問題就解決了"},{"start":17254.249,"end":17269.834,"text":"我希望做好社會的共識也就是說對醫界的聲音你希望他去他不一定要去他條件不一條件不符他當然不去這是你方的想法所以本席非常希望能夠落實"},{"start":17270.774,"end":17295.689,"text":"你把你的方案你要去我把你設備都做好那這是現在你的理念理想條件要怎麼做我可以給你怎麼樣我希望部長你也是來自意見你應該去盤點那這55個偏鄉裡頭那到底會怎麼樣去落實不影響到民眾的權益這是本席今天跟你討論的我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":17296.67,"end":17298.433,"text":"我當總醫師當完以後就到群體醫療臺大派我到群體醫療之類的中心金山那個時候是沒有醫師你現在已經是部長了你現在是部長的立場不是公告啦不是講你的歷程啦你要講"},{"start":17312.692,"end":17314.193,"text":"你現在要怎麼樣讓這55個無牙醫的偏鄉他能夠有牙醫啦因為你的編列預算裡頭呢你編列了24億啊要優化偏鄉的醫療這個計畫第二期嘛對不對當然嘛好就這個議題請你請你"},{"start":17334.759,"end":17363.943,"text":"沒問題我希望很快可以看到說我們每一個地方沒有再無牙醫的這個偏鄉嘛那也希望我們也希望多一點牙醫師願意來下鄉這是你你要拿出你的對應方案嘛有有有我們給我們給他設備給他保障師來你把方案給本席我希望達到55個無牙醫偏鄉的這個能夠彌平這個我們非常希望趕快來解決這個問題對你把方案給本席"},{"start":17365.784,"end":17392.58,"text":"接下來本席要請教你那個0.95我們立法院大家決議過了那我也很感謝你在院會的時候我們在討論你也打胸部說我一定會達成這個是對的因為這個是最公平的這個人民納稅錢的一個軍用就是每一家每一戶都有那你這明年的預算怎麼來呢"},{"start":17397.725,"end":17419.057,"text":"719億嘛0.95我們把很多增加了不少那個增加了大概有兩三百億的公務預算然後再加上那個我們這次的健保總額這個很重要健保總額我們用高推估大概5.5%所以我們如果高推估的話預計可以增加了大概500億嗎"},{"start":17425.701,"end":17431.786,"text":"500多億那這樣加起來大概會增加712億增加的一個健保的資源你講的這兩項來源會有這個712億這個有部分是這個健保應該是在健保的基金裡面不是在公務預算這邊"},{"start":17446.198,"end":17469.848,"text":"所以換句話說明年有9000多億的健保總額所以換句話說也就是114年健保點值補助到1.0.95元那這個金額你已經有來源是OK沒問題的也不是說補啦我是說我們大家一起工作自然就到0.95這樣子部長"},{"start":17473.81,"end":17482.236,"text":"什麼大家一起公佈公佈公佈就自然達到0.95你現在給人家到0.82欸怎麼可以講話你現在是部長你不是立法委員你不是議事會你不只這個身份你是部長你要政策告訴人家明年的1.0.95是沒問題的你來源沒問題我們要聽的是這個"},{"start":17495.026,"end":17516.881,"text":"對不對因為這個牽涉到疾病的形態的一個變化還有管理的情況如果這個都穩定的話我們就可以達到0.95應該是沒有問題最後這一句話算數我還是聽最後這一句話部長所以務必要達到這是立法院商黨決議當然當然行政部門就是遵照決議大家來努力最後一個議題"},{"start":17523.544,"end":17533.111,"text":"2030年你要減少癌症死亡率三分之一2030年我們看到你醫療保健支出是315.7億那比這個113年你是增加了128.46%"},{"start":17540.896,"end":17560.535,"text":"那你公布了癌症從71年到112年都是全國十大死因之首而且108年到112年你是排行榜前五名主要就是癌症那當然他的醫療費用是一直在增加所以部長你說要從"},{"start":17561.355,"end":17585.36,"text":"要到2030年減少癌症死亡率三分之一來達到對國人生命健康的一個重視這是對的方向要怎麼做呢比如說臺灣的肺癌那麼多那你這個肺癌篩檢你是不是從預防重於治療這樣你可以減少後端很多的醫療支出我們是不是應該要讓這個肺癌的篩檢"},{"start":17588.018,"end":17613.875,"text":"委員的指教非常正確檢查這樣子你看以往我們推動的子宮頸啊這一些啊現在大家成效都出來也保障國人安全那肺癌的部分呢肺癌的部分我們一直在推啊所以早出所以肺癌突然他那個除了預防跟治療也精進了不少在預防我們推出的那個低劑量的篩檢以後呢"},{"start":17617.278,"end":17619.761,"text":"答到那個條件就免費阿"},{"start":17633.097,"end":17640.585,"text":"對阿 達到那個條件就來不及了 拜託本期告訴你的是預防的這一塊怎麼做我所謂的 那是 我現在在講預防 我們現在在講預防阿誰有條件去做篩檢嘛 不是說我想去做就是當然我們就會設定在比較高危險群我們去叫 請他去做篩檢 這樣比較早的出來啦阿這個效果相當好"},{"start":17655.96,"end":17677.201,"text":"對高危險群的你們是不是可以做一個方案我覺得這個已經在做了對已經在做但是有一些人還是我都沒辦法我都沒錢可以去賺錢所以你那個範圍你到目前還是第一名你那個範圍你已經有成效你那個範圍是不是可以怎樣再擴大"},{"start":17677.882,"end":17692.038,"text":"好好好我們希望這個能夠需要的人都能夠被塞到塞到以後我們好好地給他治療需要的人都能夠被塞到要怎麼樣讓需要的人可以塞到一定一定一定你把它擴大好不好"},{"start":17695.522,"end":17702.184,"text":"會演繹阿,因為這個要實證好不好,對對對對,你演繹嘛好不好,演繹方案出來嘛好不好,謝謝好,謝謝原委員,謝謝部長,現在休息20分鐘"},{"start":18949.656,"end":18962.145,"text":"好大家坐好啦繼續開會啦我們剩下我們四個本委員會的齁保護時間好我們現在請楊耀文質詢好謝謝主席主席請一下邱部長"},{"start":18979.096,"end":18983.843,"text":"委員好部長好部長我還是想要就"},{"start":18986.124,"end":19009.935,"text":"建保的幾個問題跟部長先做個探討原因是什麼呢?原因是在未完委員會已經處理了一個勞保的大洞一直補不滿所以我們在建保還沒有很大的問題之前必須要先有妥善的規劃"},{"start":19013.317,"end":19037.051,"text":"那現在是這樣子就是因為你有承諾說行政部門有承諾在明年6月底之前健保點值要保障1.0.95元那我想要知道一下衛福部的預算大概打算從哪裡來"},{"start":19039.903,"end":19045.286,"text":"謝謝委員,我想那個是大家各黨的決議,我們行政部門會全力往這個目標來努力"},{"start":19052.401,"end":19074.785,"text":"大概分兩個部分一個是公務預算邊的增加這個部分大概增加了100多億這從原來在健保裡面我們把它挪出來做公務預算部長我想要請問一下從健保裡面挪出來是什麼意思"},{"start":19076.52,"end":19089.998,"text":"因為公務預算這是公務預算嘛有些公共衛生的啦那本來應該由公務預算來支出這次相聲量很好就把這些"},{"start":19091.426,"end":19119.061,"text":"所以變成由公務預算來支出這樣健保就不用去支付那些公共衛生的支出這其實我們清除不少啦就是原本就不應該是由健保來給付的那就是表示之前收的保費有問題啦不是收的保費有問題收的保費就是照顧人民健康啦你這些原本不應該由健保來給付嗎"},{"start":19121.443,"end":19136.396,"text":"那你是用給付跟收費是一個平衡的狀態嗎?部長現在講的意思是說現在的公務預算是之前原本有健保給付的嗎?"},{"start":19140.539,"end":19163.81,"text":"原來沒有公務預算這現在提出來當然是要變公務預算啊對啦對啦他可以提出來而且部長的意思是說這可以提出來就是感謝行政院願意來公務預算來處理這一塊啦這樣讓那個健保就有更多的空間嘛"},{"start":19165.071,"end":19176.194,"text":"那這個部分大概政府就多撥了100多億然後我們其實很大的很重要的一件事情就是那個我們的健保總額336億"},{"start":19190.003,"end":19195.607,"text":"所以算起來就是整個對健保的意志大概有712億就是假如要達到1.0.95必須要增加700多億原先算是差不多要700億我們現在整個712億"},{"start":19212.228,"end":19238.345,"text":"就是說看怎麼樣來幫忙那你現在公務預算一百多億那還有六百多億從哪裡來從那個健保總部長現在講的七百多億是總數還是增加的你們預估要保障點值到0.9增加的七百一十二億是比以前多出來的比以前多出來的"},{"start":19240.805,"end":19244.209,"text":"那得出來的動員你怎麼樣去處理這712億就是變成"},{"start":19248.28,"end":19264.929,"text":"還是跟點子有關係那這個不是那公務預算100多億那其他呢其他有最少還有500多億啊增加了我們因為我們健保總額增加了531億喔531億然後加上111億齁我總原來這總額我會把它移出來齁這個這算起來齁還加上寒病齁寒病本來是"},{"start":19277.66,"end":19283.585,"text":"所以大概全部都給100去年就是今年的總額增加了712億成長了8.13%"},{"start":19290.529,"end":19309.222,"text":"沒有啊,我只是不知道你增加這裡700多億的裁員就比較明確的是一個裁員是一個行政院移住公務我們有兩個大部分一個是行政院有移住那行政院移住又有分兩大部分那個原來的"},{"start":19319.703,"end":19344.114,"text":"總額移出來的有100多億那另外還有行政院譬如說我們現在那個癌症心藥基金還有其他的罕病的補助所以那個加起來所以行政院total連那個移出去的是300多億330幾億那另外一個是我們總額裡面的總額裡面的額度是由部長這邊來核定的今年會有比較高的額度所以他成長會比較高"},{"start":19346.539,"end":19363.032,"text":"就是有一些是公務預算阿有一些是成長阿我剛才副市長講的其實有的我們沒有算在政府裡面那個就是有些對支出面有影響的我們才算進來那大概是"},{"start":19367.247,"end":19391.477,"text":"111就突然點子要保障了所以就多出很多收入這個我也覺得很奇怪報告委員因為那個健保總額他每年會有一個成長率低推估成長率是今年是2點就是114年是2.652然後高推估會到5.5所以他前面有一筆錢就是如果我們今年真的把明年的114年的總額"},{"start":19393.038,"end":19422.228,"text":"拉到最高的推估5.5的時候那筆也會產生一筆錢就是推估的啊推估的不是實際現在就一定有那個就是成長率他就是未來的就明年的成長率如果我們用掉真的用到5.5的話我們會有391億就是含低推估累積上來的在這個總額裡面那再來就是剛剛部長有提到的111億就是以前我們可能有些政策先用在健保來做總額支出"},{"start":19422.708,"end":19441.324,"text":"現在也感謝行政院給我們爭取到用公務預算繼續做可是它可以移出一個空間那裡又有111億以上這樣補充因為我時間的關係我跟部長建議一下我覺得你們要不要考慮調整保費"},{"start":19448.283,"end":19471.253,"text":"或者是補充保費然後呢或者是跟行政院做溝通把特定的稅收來挹注健保因為我剛剛就講過了我實在不願意看到未還三個部會裡面日後就有兩個部會有兩個大棟必須要補"},{"start":19474.912,"end":19492.967,"text":"而且可能會一直公務預算的支出因為勞保現在已經很慘了那健保我真的是不大想再看到又有另外一個坑洞必須要一直補所以應該調整保費就調整保費"},{"start":19497.131,"end":19498.832,"text":"應該找特定的稅收當作專款來預注"},{"start":19511.227,"end":19536.357,"text":"就朝這個方向那你們必須要做的這個是開源節流的部分我覺得你們醫療分歧確實做得不夠踏實然後另外一個我現在講的是公部門還沒有牽扯到社會大眾就是就醫的觀念就是一個醫療分歧"},{"start":19538.058,"end":19559.436,"text":"一個就是醫學中心無止境的增加我覺得這個都是都會讓剛剛我們講的是開源現在講的是節流你們假如說一方面開源也不去應該增加保費我想"},{"start":19560.7,"end":19579.559,"text":"主動跟國人同胞講清楚大家會接受應該找特定的財源來預注我也不相信行政院找不出來這是開源的部分節流的部分我覺得醫療分級假如說"},{"start":19580.74,"end":19591.76,"text":"若實了也可以減少你們的支出醫學中心假如不要像之前漫無止境的一直增加"},{"start":19593.854,"end":19623.235,"text":"也不會造成資源的浪費好不好我當然這樣子的這麼大的一個題目不會只有今天的質詢講可是我比較重要的題目大概都已經先給部長了我最後跟部長講一個觀念大家都在討論波波牙醫我不知道為什麼你們會想出來把波波牙醫送到"},{"start":19624.807,"end":19651.473,"text":"偏鄉我只講觀念我沒有任何的立場只是說你們推了一個計畫讓大家直接承認波波牙醫我不是說我的立場喔就是說你們把波波牙醫送到偏鄉直接就是表示你們的立場已經覺得波波牙醫矮人一傑"},{"start":19653.203,"end":19671.274,"text":"另外一個面向就是你們把離島偏鄉的居民當作次等的國民我知道你們沒有那個意思啦但是你們的論述我在選區就被罵死了"},{"start":19672.815,"end":19691.897,"text":"我說過我對哪一國的醫生我基本上沒有很大的意見可是是你們的計畫推出然後在做說明的時候導致了對於這些醫生跟對於偏鄉居民"},{"start":19693.601,"end":19701.567,"text":"都很不公平謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝委員指教謝謝楊委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請王振旭委員質詢謝謝主席還是有請邱部長"},{"start":19723.686,"end":19741.851,"text":"委員好部長好今天經過這麼長的時間雖然有20分鐘的休息不過有時候沒好睡覺這個勞勤要繼續謝謝大家共商國事大家都是為了我們臺灣社會民眾的健康還有要怎麼處理好大家用心不一樣"},{"start":19751.793,"end":19775.28,"text":"我們也知道打造健康臺灣慢性病的防治是很重要因為我們慢性病防治可以做好的話也能更久也能更好所以今天就利用這個機會來跟部長討論一下有關於這個健康檢查來好好的整理好那個資料怎麼樣去統合才能夠落實這個預防醫學是"},{"start":19778.61,"end":19793.899,"text":"那2024年的健康研連的建言書來的第三個議題就是要針對疾病防治癌症治療跟確認照顧理念真的是要好好的去擴展健康檢查來落實預防醫學我想這大家都很清楚現在北京一直堅持"},{"start":19795.02,"end":19809.486,"text":"包括賴總統也期待透過這樣的方式來讓民眾不要因為身體有疾病以後才開始注意自己的身體這個是我們很能夠理解的可是到底"},{"start":19810.666,"end":19827.689,"text":"之前的經驗是怎麼樣我們可以從這個資料看得出來這是2021年國民健康國民健康署這邊對不起打錯一個字我們是健康署署一署二的署這是國民健康署"},{"start":19828.976,"end":19850.347,"text":"那個時候他們做了調查發現說過去3年來40到64歲有做過健康檢查才只有61.2%65歲他胸口比較皺只有45.7那大部分的原因都是因為自己都很健康啊根本沒這個需要那在座"},{"start":19852.067,"end":19868.455,"text":"看起來很少人是40歲以下在座各位多少人遇到這個比例可能有一半不去做健康檢查沒有去做過健康檢查可能就不知道自己覺得自己的身體健康很好這是真的嗎還是有什麼風險存在"},{"start":19870.516,"end":19886.289,"text":"這個就是我們期待部長很希望能夠打造健康臺灣的這個過程裡面有更好的誘因或更好的方法那我們可以看得出來這個包括說補助費用要翻倍"},{"start":19889.871,"end":19891.152,"text":"那可是我們也想要了解的是說那"},{"start":19918.903,"end":19939.695,"text":"如果真的做了健康檢查的話就變成是一個重要的議題分布在不同的地方來收集這些資料如果這個資料沒有辦法統整的話我們就沒有辦法建立一個大的數據庫那這樣就很可惜"},{"start":19940.695,"end":19965.609,"text":"那我們目前看到的就是不同的這個對象的類別可以分勞工學生公務人員跟一般的民眾國人那這個都有一些法源依據來要求這些對象進行健康的檢查那這些健康檢查當然他會產出相關的資料那我們也知道勞工的部分呢透過一般勞工雇主"},{"start":19966.509,"end":19989.314,"text":"來提供費用來做檢查所以理論上他可以擁有資料可是目前的法院裡面只有針對高危或結果異常的人才會透過主管機關來核備就是說這個來備查放在這個僱主那邊那學生的話透過學生衛生學校衛生法"},{"start":19990.194,"end":20009.237,"text":"由學校來紀錄建檔這個建檔可能一般是維持7年這個建檔的直接的內容需求我們很期待如果能夠統整的話對於學生這邊也能夠有比較好的一些照顧公務員員用不同的方式"},{"start":20010.078,"end":20037.548,"text":"那部分的對象來去提報服務機關那就跟一般的勞工的這個勞安法是一樣的處理過程那一般的國人的話這些健康檢查資料事實上都是存在個人的這個他的需求裡面就沒有好的方式來做統整這是我們目前看到的這些健康檢查的資料持有的散佈在各個地方這一個人怎麼長啊"},{"start":20039.388,"end":20056.974,"text":"現在有沒有好的方法或者是未來如何能夠把這些東西統整起來我們也知道事實上這些健康檢查他都有不同的這些經費所以我們如何能夠讓受檢者如果在現有的法源之下未來能夠"},{"start":20058.334,"end":20069.474,"text":"好的方式透過這些受檢者的同意能夠把這個資料釋出來以後由國家或者是有哪一個單位來統籌我這就是今天要跟部長討論的地方"},{"start":20071.109,"end":20098.329,"text":"那目前我們知道資料的嫁接有幾個可能性我們剛剛講過不同的這些受檢的對象還有受檢的這個過程基本上又分為公立跟私立的這些醫療院所來協助那這邊我們可以看得出來公立的部分就有包括教育部衛福部退福會國防部還有很多的地方政府"},{"start":20098.869,"end":20108.705,"text":"那這個事實上都是由主管機關在處理的那私立的各個醫療院所大家就各自處理保管相關的資料"},{"start":20109.881,"end":20136.156,"text":"那想要請教部長的就是如果在國人能夠有好的這個授權過程我們也了解這個是很重要的一個個資那這個個資目前都有好的一個個人保護法在保護個資的部分那我們也非常清楚的知道我們必須要嚴守這個個資的處理模式"},{"start":20137.737,"end":20160.397,"text":"我們目前從這個個人資料保護法也瞭解說健康檢查的這些資料有哪一種情形之下是可以透過好的方式來應用這個個人資料來讓國人的健康可以得到更大的保護所以我們在昨天也透過勞動部的這個討論裡面也希望把勞工健檢的資料"},{"start":20162.158,"end":20182.503,"text":"能夠有機會跟衛福部這邊做一個間接跟能夠善於好好的利用這些內容那請問部長未來我們有什麼好的方式可以來間接相關的資料怎麼去做研議那這個有沒有講到一些期程可以讓本席來做參考"},{"start":20185.865,"end":20209.839,"text":"非常感謝那個委員關心這個部分的確是能夠更照顧國人的健康而且從預防醫學方面然後有點個人的健康管理能夠落實到健康管理這樣對病人能夠早期來預防然後早期診治這樣的一個遠景非常敬佩"},{"start":20210.526,"end":20233.161,"text":"那這因為都牽涉到不同的從這幾十年來我們在醫療的資料的整理就已經就是說怎麼連結其實都花了很多的心也很困難但是我們已經從實務上經會上還有法制上包括我們在通過相關的法令現在就在行政院研議"},{"start":20235.142,"end":20260.077,"text":"一個專法資料庫的專法當然剛剛也提到各支法這個部分各支這個也是要病人也同意嘛同意以後我們會把那個委員的這張的想法我們來看怎麼樣來落實好不好我們那個可能來跟各個部會來互動那你說委員剛剛有提到勞動部已經有"},{"start":20262.27,"end":20275.496,"text":"有願意處理我們衛福部過去跟勞動部在很多的資料裡面是連結的相當都很有誠意要連結的都連結的不錯提醒部長你剛剛說這個病人這不是患者這不是病人"},{"start":20279.037,"end":20296.253,"text":"這是健康的檢查,這是健康民眾所能夠提供的一些資料所以我們很期待,不然你如果說衛福部這邊有需要我們來一起處理的話也非常歡迎我們一起來討論對於國有的健康很重要"},{"start":20299.035,"end":20322.003,"text":"好 再來就是簡單 把那個部長請教一個兒童健康檢查的部分很簡短的請教一下我們可以看得出來在小朋友7歲之前他有7次的這個健康檢查的機會或者是有這方面的這種可以去掌握到小朋友成長過程當中的健康的問題不過那個次數切變結果是421"},{"start":20328.224,"end":20355.2,"text":"所以分佈相當的不平均就是這個可能是之前已經有過非常深入的討論知道說一歲就是半個半歲之前的小朋友需要有4次的檢查還有2歲3歲可是3到7歲好像一輩子這部分是不是有機會能夠再研議看看好我們就會優化這個新生兒跟老童做健康檢查我們會會來研議"},{"start":20358.262,"end":20385.085,"text":"OK 再來就是現在大家想反對腸病毒腸病毒最近單週就有2.2萬人次所以看起來可能會更嚴重因為這個天氣已經在改變了所以針對這個冬季的流感針對於包括RSV的防治尤其是這個6個月以下這些嬰幼兒不知道目前有沒有更好的對策來減少家長的擔心"},{"start":20387.126,"end":20413.982,"text":"市委委員我們是不是請那個莊市長報告委員那長命毒疫情的部分主要是因為它現在流行的都是克薩吉A型是6跟A4那我們EV71現在唯一有的疫苗是EV71型那它並沒有叫它保護的作用所以在這個部分ACIP委員會這邊還是以自備的就是民眾認為有自備接種需要就自備接種"},{"start":20414.742,"end":20439.541,"text":"那因為藏民主權也沒有特效藥所以一般我目前都還是用衛教宣導那另外就是預防重症主要就是說只要有看到那些重症的前照那就是由基層醫師來做所以我們事實上因為有這個部分所以目前的重症其實今年我記得只有3例還4例但都比往年少雖然是輕症比較多"},{"start":20440.422,"end":20455.944,"text":"那這是長命族的部分那流感的部分因為我們現在其實孕婦可以打流感那這可以保護新生兒另外那個新手的爸媽6個月以內的因為他也可以打這個流感所以目前這個都在推行"},{"start":20456.425,"end":20474.665,"text":"那RHB的部分比較傷腦筋就是因為這個有某個廠牌的這個RHB的疫苗他打在這個孕婦可以保護新生的部分目前才剛通過藥證應該是明年才會有疫苗進來那另外不過"},{"start":20476.647,"end":20501.845,"text":"建保署這邊他們有針對早產兒啦或是這個有心電性疾病的一歲以下的有提供的單株抗體那這邊是可以用的那不過今年有個好消息是說今天阿斯匹其實沒有很高啦他大概每35週到45週會一個高峰那麼今天還是46週我們看起來是不是今年不是太高好謝謝謝謝署長跟部長說明謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝部長"},{"start":20505.747,"end":20519.136,"text":"繼續我們請陳培宇委員質詢好謝謝主席那有請邱部長"},{"start":20524.181,"end":20538.572,"text":"委員好部長午安今年6月5號應該是您當部長之後首次跟您討論一些議題當時我就提醒部長說其實今年就是兒童權力公約施行法國內法劃的第10年"},{"start":20539.272,"end":20559.66,"text":"那10週年這件事情我覺得非常的重要因為我們其實在這10年當中我們從公部門或者是私立的機關民間單位我們做了非常多的努力想要讓更多人認識兒少公約很可惜部長你知道嗎昨天我們雖然在內政委員會奮戰一整天勞動部這邊也很忙昨天其實是國際兒童人權日"},{"start":20560.76,"end":20581.846,"text":"我們看了衛福部的相關新聞發現只有一些地方政府的活動還有衛福部的部堂醫院但是我認為衛福部作為兒少主管機關CRC的主管機關也是兒少法的主管機關卻沒有更積極的作為或者是活動我認為我們應該要做更多的事情請衛福部要積極把兒少相關權益放在心上好嗎"},{"start":20583.746,"end":20599.991,"text":"財閥問題"},{"start":20600.131,"end":20604.313,"text":"左手邊紅色的字是我們發現的問題就是跨部會通報的問題採訪的問題幼少法還有幼教法的採訪的方法很複雜還有中央地方的公告沒有同步我們辦公室花了很多的時間一直在跟衛福部討論"},{"start":20615.478,"end":20631.685,"text":"感謝到了右邊黑色這一塊2024年總算有些進展有了初步的改善我認為這邊要給衛福部的同仁肯定可是其實還是有很多問題沒有解決例如說右邊的紅色下面這邊而上法裁罰公告遭到地方下架的問題"},{"start":20633.366,"end":20655.927,"text":"這個還是沒有解決而少法裁罰沒有辦法即時執行跟公告造成行為人得以利用空窗期繼續對小孩做壞事剛剛老林在旁邊點頭了這個依然沒有解決也就是說我身為一個小孩的家長我其實沒有辦法透過衛福部的平台知道我馬上要把小孩送去的這個營隊的主辦人或相關教練的老師是不是而少法裁處的對象"},{"start":20657.108,"end":20677.873,"text":"那如果他有曾經有被臺北市政府或是新北市政府公告但是因為沒有相關法源依據他的名字就會下架了所以我的小孩還是可能被送去這樣的地方上課我認為對於現在的父母親來說每個孩子真的都是寶貝但如果你們要告訴我只要回到兒少法修正才有法源依據那我就要問我們兒少法什麼時候可以修"},{"start":20679.697,"end":20705.846,"text":"好謝謝委員的關心而上我想我們一起在努力那這個問題是不是那但是因為他需要法規範嘛對不對應該說目前沒有說公告多久照理說他可以辭去公告可是地方政府就下架了那我們之後我們會把這個勾機的部分或者是跟縣市怎麼樣跟中央對接的部分再來做處理這沒有涉及修法的問題好那空窗的部分呢空窗期的部分呢"},{"start":20707.018,"end":20707.719,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20736.938,"end":20737.459,"text":"委員會主管委員會主管委員會"},{"start":20759.076,"end":20785.82,"text":"好不好我們會再積極的跟你們討論那接下來看一下衛福部現在今年的預算其實我或者是范雲委員都問過衛福部關於兒少教練證的事情在總質詢的時候也花了很長的篇幅跟部長您討論但是我目前在衛福部114年度的預算規劃中都沒有看到兒少規劃證更不要講相關政策就連前期規劃研議都沒有看到我想問一下衛福部對於兒少工作證這件事情的態度跟進度"},{"start":20786.8,"end":20806.647,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們跟人本開過會是這上目前70%都可以在相關系統就是這個這個不適任人員的這個系統裡頭去勾結沒有問題那還有大概20%到30左右的就是這些教練比較特殊行業的那這個部分的確我們那時候也跟這個人本說明"},{"start":20808.348,"end":20816.969,"text":"我們需要有一些時間那可能就是再放在兒犬法裡頭慢慢來處理哎呦又回到兒犬法那好那我覺得我的兒犬法什麼時候要修"},{"start":20818.781,"end":20842.652,"text":"就是我的最後一張投影片而憲法的部分我們現在我們內部的初步的草案已經整理到一定的程度那時間如果來得及我們希望在今年底之前能夠拿出來預告什麼時候的年底今年底前今年年底今年年底前我們可以開始預計今年底前應該是可以預告然後跟徵求各所有外界所有的意見並且進行進一步的討論今年年底前可以公告"},{"start":20845.231,"end":20868.777,"text":"好吧我們期待喔這麼多場記者會跨黨派每次只要遇到而受的新聞我們就要開記者會但是我覺得開記者會真的沒有用我們開記者會只是友善的提醒但更多實質的監督跟推進我相信有非常非常多立法委員關注可不可以幫我回到前一張頭影片最後我要拜託部長一件事情剛剛您的幕僚說不適任70%的部分系統都可以勾結"},{"start":20870.118,"end":20892.558,"text":"剩下20%跟30%喔特殊的這些在教學現場不同的教學現場服務我們的孩子這些大人可能是變非常特殊但我認為這是負面表列如果我們臺灣可以正面表列積極什麼樣的條件什麼樣的課程訓練什麼樣增能機制才可以去服務小孩我認為這是對所有父母最最最最最重要的"},{"start":20894.38,"end":20895.041,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":20925.621,"end":20930.284,"text":"葉延芝、葉延芝、葉延芝委員不在。 接續我們請劉建國委員質詢。謝謝署長、謝謝召委。有請部長跟長教師。有來嗎?有,市長。市長。委員好。部長好,還有市長好。"},{"start":20956.346,"end":20977.024,"text":"根據衛福部施治防治照護政策綱領暨行動方案2.0中有一個施治友善臺灣777的目標部長知道吧?市長一定知道那一起說7層以上患者獲得診斷及服務7層以上照顧者獲得支持訓練"},{"start":20979.275,"end":20995.778,"text":"7%以上民眾對施治症有正確認識及友善態度沒有錯嗎是好那你們在19號衛福部發了一個新聞稿大致上內容是這樣全臺施治確診比率達67.23一級超過23.3萬名施治家庭照顧者獲得支援社會大眾對施治症正確認識及友善態度達19.6"},{"start":21011.41,"end":21036.408,"text":"今年是113今年所以有達成那個政策綱領的階段性目標這個叫做有達成政策綱領的政策目標是因為今年就是67%好那明年才是70%是是是是所以市長認為已經達標了是今年達標了是那部長你看到他下面這些文字對照上面的777你覺得達標了嗎"},{"start":21039.653,"end":21061.838,"text":"我覺得都還有繼續努力的空間只有努力的空間這個空間還有多大部長有沒有去過拉過那個喇叭776就沒有辦法賓果767也沒辦法賓果677也不可能賓果你覺得這樣賓果了嗎"},{"start":21063.45,"end":21087.745,"text":"市長答覆是達標了今年度還達標了對不對部長你覺得達標了嗎你的努力的空間還差了幾趴簡單就好好不好如果以他們訂的部門訂的目標是有到達他們目標啦但是我們部長你認定他們有達到他們訂的目標7成以上獲得診斷及服務"},{"start":21090.649,"end":21115.459,"text":"你第一個是全台私自確診比例67.3這是確診比例那反之7成以上照顧者獲得支持訓練你馬上把它轉換成一級超過23.3萬私自家庭照顧者獲得支援可以這樣轉可以這樣換那你的第一個期跟第二個期就不用分做兩個期啊"},{"start":21117.833,"end":21138.496,"text":"跟委員說明我們推估今年的失智症的人數目前是今年是35萬是那所以我們就是依據推估的人數那基本上只要有確診的那我們在相關的服務裡面也包括照顧者會一起來接受這些相關的支持服務"},{"start":21139.717,"end":21165.937,"text":"所以這個標23.3其實也表示有23.3萬的這個失聚症者有被確診不好意思的我現在就要來戳破你這樣講我是有問題的什麼叫做確診率達67.3就預期超過23.3萬得到家庭失職家庭照顧者獲得支援部長11月22在總辭職的時候我有提供資料給你跟院長這個是國際失職協會在9月21號"},{"start":21168.979,"end":21183.12,"text":"今年度9月2日公佈2024全球施政報告中其中臺灣部門參與調查的臺灣照顧者對於社區中有足夠施政者支持服務的認同比例為48.5沒有過半同時一般民眾的認同率更只有3.4"},{"start":21186.897,"end":21205.021,"text":"請你來挑戰國際施政協會因為國際施政協會他其實是用詢問這些相關我們後續也來了解他到底抽樣的10月22的總諮詢你要後續才詢問現在已經11月21號所以你還沒有問還是你要跟我講他是講社區而已還是你要講說他們這樣的調查有問題還是還有辦法答覆我跟答問部長"},{"start":21217.749,"end":21238.988,"text":"因為這個相關的調查確實就像委員說的他是在社區可是事實上我們也有非常多的這個失業症長輩其實是在住宿型機構所以在住宿型機構這邊失智率的比例其實高達八成所以現在各位同意的是住宿型機構是跟社區還是要講社區還是兩個要跟我一起講"},{"start":21239.708,"end":21248.762,"text":"我們的政策綱領訂的是全臺灣所以當時的政策綱領通過的就是114年全臺灣滿一千人是講家庭還是講社區還是講機構"},{"start":21251.043,"end":21276.338,"text":"就是全臺灣全部嗎就包含機構嗎社區嗎家庭嗎可以這麼講嗎現在說明的是委員您拿的國際私事政協會他調查的是社區的所以你的意思就是說你的家庭ok你的機構ok唯獨這個社區不ok所以你家庭加你的機構加起來再扣掉還是再扣掉這個社區你還是有達到六成七"},{"start":21277.779,"end":21299.7,"text":"你要跟我表達是這樣嗎我們確實你有把握嗎6乘7確實都有比對過ID所以這一塊是包括有在我們長照體系使用服務的那你就必須要跟國際私自政協會跟他講說你這麼不公平啊我家庭做好的你要跟我額入啊我機構做好的你要額入啊你怎麼只有把做不好的弄出來你意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":21303.144,"end":21325.263,"text":"我們有機會可以跟國際施政協會這邊來聯繫我們其實有幾年前有邀請那個理事主席到臺灣來有來協助做是這樣我要提醒齁如果說你們這樣的一個新聞稿是不是過於樂觀啦齁我是要提醒這樣然後你們這樣的計算方式是不是過於阿Q"},{"start":21326.451,"end":21352.036,"text":"我覺得是有問題的啦你如果覺得沒有那好那我們就到時候再拜託召委針對施政的整個全部面向來做一個專案的討論我們再逐一把相關的數據提供給您來做參考跟委員說明其實我們的推估其實是國衛院協助幫我們做了失智流平調查再把國衛院再拉下來這一塊所以我要把它是說我們現在推估出來的"},{"start":21353.396,"end":21360.981,"text":"國務院嚴謹我知道啦但國務院有時候我會揣摩嘛國務院在實行國家級高齡醫學技機關或是研究所中心的相關成果報告裡面竟然把學校的離年齒4個字放在這一個成果報告裡面的活動之一啊"},{"start":21384.52,"end":21411.197,"text":"你聽過嗎?你了解嗎?你要再把國務院拉進來是不是?裡面這次總預算跟你講會有問題啦請回來請回來市長你回去再好好思考一下昨天居股聯盟辦的記者會你因為要參與會議先行離開我沒有意見嘛對不對那你離開完之後你留下來的人你離開之後他也就跟著離開了"},{"start":21414.36,"end":21435.746,"text":"一個居胡聯盟跟這麼多的委員都還在現場在針對這個長照3.0要提出相關的建言他們連朗讀連播放影片連跟你們有對話機會都沒有我們長照是沒有半個人留在現場理由是要去參加那個去參加那個所以"},{"start":21436.986,"end":21453.983,"text":"如果你們在面對第一線的團體的建言是如此還有很多委員 跨黨派的都還在現場你們已經沒有半個人在那個地方你們這樣是不是會出問題啊我提醒你"},{"start":21455.722,"end":21474.794,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為事先有跟那個單位有溝通過就是我們本來就是同仁有需要到那個前瞻那他要求的是說這大概就是遞交陳情書的時候人在場接那個陳情書是事先有溝通過跟陳雪惠這個女士這邊溝通過"},{"start":21476.297,"end":21499.021,"text":"也要再講下去齁好那我們就找時間再好好講不然我是要讓你知道有這個狀況齁你也參考一下啦齁因為施治2.0在明年底就要結束了對不對你請回啦我不請他站的時候他把你牽拖的齁你為什麼要找他算帳但是我剛才說的事情你可能要洗衣啦齁"},{"start":21503.142,"end":21520.653,"text":"李廉恥會在你高齡醫學及健康物質研究中心的成果裡面的活動之一這個實在是國家衛生研究院國家講到國家是何等神聖重要一件事情市長請回落我現在對不起你先留著還有你的事情"},{"start":21522.234,"end":21542.646,"text":"那我當然是期待說因為坦白講賴總統一直在講長照3.0不是現在才講競選時間然後就任了也一直在講長照3.0明年的長照基金又高達到930億嘛對不對那勢必長照3.0的期程要提早了啦要提早嘛那相對的你的失智證這一個2.0要變成3.0也應該一併提早才對嘛"},{"start":21548.309,"end":21574.121,"text":"應該未從某個月跟我講說執行到明年底結束我們才來提前這沒有道理啦不管什麼樣的情況之下我當然希望我們部長到有新的思維跟做法然後積極應應來這個長照相關面向的事情要趕快來加緊找部嘛食藥署有審查通過一個叫阿茲海默症的新藥是首款可以延緩這個患者的退化"},{"start":21574.761,"end":21576.244,"text":"新藥通過對施政的治療帶來重大突破"},{"start":21587.475,"end":21608.153,"text":"這款新藥需支援1.約切10萬這對一般家庭的負擔其實不小啦對不對我想大家期盼這麼久終於有這樣的新藥然後延緩施政患者的病程這坦白講這也可以大幅減少醫療成本的支出嘛然後又是次長對外的一個說明對不對那這款新藥何時可以納入健保集會不定有時無空喔"},{"start":21610.236,"end":21625.161,"text":"我想只要對病人而且是醫師覺得他是有效的我想都是列入審核的那個審核列入健保的一個行列我這邊距離要求不長好不好"},{"start":21626.161,"end":21629.464,"text":"昨天在這個委員會和部長發生什麼狀況大家非常清楚"},{"start":21653.644,"end":21679.885,"text":"因為因為發生了憾思之後是11月4號11月8號才讓這副組長請假接受調查然後隔過10天才在這個才在前天才公佈昨天接受備詢各位可以想個是什麼狀況我就不再贅述為什麼同樣CDC遇到霸凌的事件我們的機關署的副組長第一個時間對外說明需要調查兩個月誰授權"},{"start":21682.948,"end":21693.745,"text":"誰指示為什麼要等到院長震怒之後說必須各機關一個月內因為一星期內所有的辦理事件必須調查完成才再改口"},{"start":21694.788,"end":21706.401,"text":"報告委員那原來是因為依據我們機關署有一個員工職場霸凌的防治跟處理作業的辦法規定兩個月還是在兩個月內啦兩個月內對對對對早上才什麼狀況你們下午還一樣要講兩個月內是那你為什麼不跟院長講說你們現在之前有這樣的一個作業準則"},{"start":21716.338,"end":21720.962,"text":"主要還是要縮短那整個調查的過程關於我們各機關自己的心境比較麻煩署長是你下令的嗎"},{"start":21738.611,"end":21756.983,"text":"呃應該是說我們我本來是想要快一點的但是但是我們有副組長不想快一點要照座位準則跟副組長沒有關係跟副組長沒有關係啊不然副組長為什麼講那些話沒有沒有呃兩個月內這當然就是說兩個月內早上在這個委員會乒乒乓乓你們下午看那個記者會你們完全"},{"start":21760.58,"end":21765.784,"text":"提醒各位謝謝謝謝劉建國 倚重心長署長要注意接續我們請 最後一個好不好陳穎委員質詢好 謝謝教委 那麻煩請那個部長"},{"start":21794.437,"end":21815.247,"text":"委員好部長好部長這兩天我不曉得你有沒有注意到一件事情因為我看到這個很有趣一定要跟你分享一下這兩天有一個非常知名的反菸團體就是董事基金會他們在媒體上宣稱全面禁售止菸是不切實際的做法"},{"start":21816.047,"end":21840.896,"text":"那我看到這個之後我就忽然覺得很困惑了因為畢竟在很多年前我也曾經出席參加了他們這個董事基金會在立法院舉辦的記者會那這個記者會呢他是一個戒菸的記者會我非常清楚的記得這個記者會有一個重要活動就是報名參加戒菸的朋友"},{"start":21841.576,"end":21847.469,"text":"可以有成功的話可以獲得數十萬元的高額高額獎金那"},{"start":21849.397,"end":21874.886,"text":"很怕菸味的我還特別在致詞的時候表示就是說我希望我們的柯總召可以拿到這個獎金所以我對這個記者會我印象非常的深刻結果回過頭來時至今日董事基金會的一位非常重要的靈魂人物竟然對外宣稱說全面禁售指菸是不切實際的做法"},{"start":21875.606,"end":21903.855,"text":"那身為一個臺灣重要的反菸團體突然這樣的倡議我不禁要問部長請問什麼樣才是最實際的做法呢部長你怎麼看這個事情啊包委員其實我跟你一樣是很怕二手而已所以你會不會覺得也忽然困惑了起來你如果覺得困惑沒關係在原來有他的一個講可能有他的一個背景我想董事記就是一直在"},{"start":21907.136,"end":21913.478,"text":"反菸團體說青少年現在已經沒有怎麼抽脂菸了這句話你認同嗎你怎麼看這件事情現在的青少年真的沒有怎麼抽脂菸了嗎"},{"start":21934.158,"end":21935.319,"text":"吳趙欣署長"},{"start":21953.667,"end":21974.572,"text":"各位謝謝委員關心我想青少年抽任何一個菸品我們都不建議那目前其實子菸在青少年的吸菸率是有下降但是還是有相當大的部分你講這樣就對了嘛所以這個沒怎麼抽子菸這件事情是不對的嘛那所以部長"},{"start":21976.448,"end":21992.414,"text":"所以現在剛剛那句話 根本叫做睜眼說瞎話署長是不瞎的欸 署長很專家好 那根據國建署自己的調查喔高中生止煙吸煙率7.2%電子煙使用率8.8%加熱煙使用率1.9%那 所以"},{"start":22002.256,"end":22021.922,"text":"所以到底是哪裡來的青少年現在已經沒怎麼抽指煙了到底是誰在哄人說這種話還是他們自己瞎掰的我不知道因為部長你覺得7.2%的這個指煙吸煙率是非常低的嗎低到可以當作是沒有的概念嗎可以嗎"},{"start":22024.598,"end":22045.512,"text":"還是相當高吧是啊我等一下換算給你看喔因為部長對於一個年年拿國建署補助款的這個反菸團體來說呢對於國建署調查的數據你把它當作沒有看到然後大剌剌的對外在那邊講說青少年現在已經不怎麼抽沒怎麼抽紙菸了"},{"start":22046.172,"end":22057.347,"text":"然後接著轉頭要倡議說全面禁售職業是不切實際的做法我覺得這個邏輯我完全沒有辦法理解部長你可以理解這樣的邏輯嗎還是你贊同這樣的一個邏輯嗎還是署長你贊同"},{"start":22066.369,"end":22079.557,"text":"那部長7.2%的這個止煙吸煙率到底有多高我來換算成人數給你看我們也參考了教育部112年高中職總人數是557600人來計算喔7.2%呢就等於多少人4100人你覺得4100個青少年抽煙這個人數是很少的嗎"},{"start":22091.251,"end":22118.456,"text":"應該是很多好那部長一個團體反菸反到最後竟然是去力挺止菸這個是令大家嚴重錯愕的事情欸雖然我們不知道背後到底發生了什麼事但我們還是不希望說你衛福部到最後也出現同樣的問題然後大家反菸反到去挺止菸這個是很恐怖的事啊所以"},{"start":22122.342,"end":22128.958,"text":"我這邊有一個我看一下有一個簡報好來我們來看一下"},{"start":22130.951,"end":22149.748,"text":"11月18日ETtoday新聞雲所做的民調臺灣健保財源面臨挑戰那我們的健保署署長石崇良他很辛苦考慮再三透過這個我不知道是他個人建議還是還是"},{"start":22151.71,"end":22169.285,"text":"還是其他人建議就是說未來考慮調高證券交易或者房屋交易作為補充財源那同時也有專家建議說我們來仿效這個日本把這個消費稅也就是營業稅從目前的5%調高到10%"},{"start":22174.009,"end":22192.888,"text":"結果這個一投票不得了了總共有6233票的這個反對票同意的呢只有79票那這個沒有意見的32票這個就是這一題的調查結果那我們再來看看另外一個民調"},{"start":22195.234,"end":22220.496,"text":"為了要籌措百億癌症基金政府也考慮建議開徵糖捐、酒捐等稅捐來增加財源但是修法需要耗時費日這個緩不及急所以題目是是否贊成此類的新措施"},{"start":22221.597,"end":22248.765,"text":"結果這個調查也是很好玩我們看一下6294票反對那同意的有225票那只有11票是沒有意見的那為何我剛剛講的這兩題喔這個民眾投票都一面倒害我看到我也忍不住去按反對票因為畢竟這些稅一調高大家很清楚嘛就萬物皆長了啊那誰要幹這種事情對不對那"},{"start":22251.127,"end":22272.318,"text":"我們最後再來看一下相較於調高消費稅營業稅跟這個交易稅或者增設糖捐增設民眾負擔的這些方案目前加熱菸已經修法通過那卡在國建署的無限拖延"},{"start":22273.979,"end":22295.607,"text":"的健康風險評估還有造成你們這個走失猖獗那百億的煙圈流失你們看看從上面看左邊看右邊看這個空氣中瀰漫著我們看不到抓不到的百億這個稅就這樣子隨風而去所以"},{"start":22297.953,"end":22320.984,"text":"這一題就是問說您是否認為最有效最快速的方式是增加加速核准加熱菸產品上市然後立即開增加熱菸稅菸捐作為健保財源財務的這個緊急支援結果同意的嚇死我了高達7501票不同意的只有44票那沒意見的48票"},{"start":22323.466,"end":22344.987,"text":"這個特別提出來這裡給大家參考你們如果不趕快把這個百億的這個菸捐把它好好的這個讓政府入袋的話呢我想我們接下來就是我們全這個我們全國的納稅人就要多繳錢這也是很不合理的事情啊"},{"start":22346.035,"end":22368.284,"text":"好所以這個部長根據媒體所做的民調結果我不知道您是不是也就是認同啦就如同就是媒體最後的結論所說的因為本席畢竟從這個部長你上任到現在呢不斷的呼籲再呼籲國建署你不要一直故意在那裡技術性的拖延卡關"},{"start":22369.284,"end":22390.422,"text":"那我們也都知道就是美國跟日本韓國大部分的國家也都有開放加熱菸了難道我們的國建署你是有能力還是有什麼本事去否定這些國家FDA所做的這些研究這些決定呢或者是說我們不了解的是執意卡關的"},{"start":22392.64,"end":22412.139,"text":"這些人﹐少數人﹐到底有何難言之隱﹐或者有受到什麼樣的壓力﹐逼得我們石崇良署長必須要到處去找錢﹐然後也逼得我們政府﹐就像有如坐在百億黃金堆上的﹐卻像民眾討錢的乞丐﹐"},{"start":22414.503,"end":22433.417,"text":"這是很奇怪的事情我不知道部長你到底有什麼樣的看法因為這個被公務人員這樣如此的公務人員去延宕這樣的事情像話嗎百億幾年了一年是減少百億多的稅收我們現在都延宕多久了"},{"start":22434.423,"end":22460.979,"text":"我跟委員報告一下分兩點第一點就是剛剛ETtoday那個調查那個其實是假設性的問題我們並沒有要去研議那個剛剛講的消費稅啦、堂、捐什麼沒有這回事我們研議的真的是現在在研議是補充保惠這個部分對啦因為你先說明一下你有現成的百億你收不到那第二個這個部分其實非常謝謝委員一直關心跟催省"},{"start":22464.241,"end":22478.237,"text":"我想我們也一直在瞭解到整個國建署在審查這個加熱源這個進度我想那個是不是請吳司長跟委員報告一下我們現在的一個我們努力在審查的進度"},{"start":22480.941,"end":22508.76,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們不會因為大家因為我想社會都很關心這件事情那我們也按照我們所立的一些規範還有健康風險評估的一些機制那也尊重相關委員的一個審查的方式那根本也不知道目前美國並沒有加熱菸的上市那韓國跟日本他是沒有審查就可以直接上市包括歐盟他是沒有審查的那唯一有審查就是美國跟我們那美國並沒有目前並沒有加熱菸"},{"start":22510.407,"end":22518.653,"text":"那所以我們就是繼續卡關那有的不值得參考我想是這樣齁我們在我上次質詢之後齁你們聽說你們國健署又開了一次健康風險評估的這個審查會議應該是第38次了吧"},{"start":22535.227,"end":22550.807,"text":"我們已經開了44次了所以上次給我的數據是錯的?你們自己算錯?因為數據是你們給的那後面到底這個審查會議可以公開了沒有?結論可以公開了沒有?我們大概審查了有的結果就會公開"},{"start":22551.961,"end":22577.367,"text":"還有一個就是目前還不能公開你公開就要公開全部你不要又像那個那個假的地下署長在那裡跟我囉哩巴說的那個因為是這樣子我們其實除了那個審查的那個過程結果要不到之外呢我們還有一樣東西也是要不到這個很奇妙不是我要不到而已不管各黨的各黨派的這個"},{"start":22579.588,"end":22603.554,"text":"的辦公室都要不要這個看起來不像機密的資料齁就是因為因為齁我剛回到我們的那個反菸團體喔就是衛福部跟國健署每一年齁給反菸團體跟接菸團體這不包含的意願的這個獎捐補助款大概是多少補助補助款對啊"},{"start":22605.091,"end":22619.706,"text":"主席我問完這一題我就會解釋我們大概每兩年會舉辦一個戒菸救營比賽那是對外委託的一個案應該是委託案那個大概是將近不到800萬只有這樣子嗎"},{"start":22621.528,"end":22627.13,"text":"衛福部有沒有要求他們做任何KPI來檢視這些或你們自己有沒有做任何KPI來檢視這些獎捐補助款的效果?"},{"start":22642.467,"end":22658.745,"text":"我們這個比賽從過去的每一次大概有將近2萬多組那因為疫情的關係以後那疫情後大概目前都維持在1萬到1萬5組每一次辦理的時候那它的接驗成功6個月的接驗成功率大概是40%"},{"start":22661.124,"end":22676.469,"text":"所以這個只有這樣子簡單的一個那你們預期達到的目標我們一般的一般的戒菸就是一般多元服務的戒菸服務的成功率大概是以去年為例大概是33.1"},{"start":22679.414,"end":22698.042,"text":"好 我想這個部分齁 我在這裡要要求就是說你們要把近5年給反菸團體以及建菸團體的獎捐補助款明細提供給本委員會那同時要註記了這些團體領的這些錢之後達到什麼樣的KPI因為剛剛講的是很rough啦"},{"start":22700.903,"end":22715.411,"text":"總共開了40幾次的審查會議也要一併公開給大家那如果有哪些國家加熱因的部分他們可以沒有審查就上路那我想他們還是有一個基本的一個參考的依據"},{"start":22721.673,"end":22738.458,"text":"韓國人也不是神經病嘛,他們不可能就是我就搭拉拉沒有審查就上屋,他們還是有一個參考的依據啦,不可能沒有比較啦所以這個部分我們要求這兩項東西麻煩你們提供,好謝謝好謝謝陳英文,謝謝部長"},{"start":22744.976,"end":22757.009,"text":"鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在本日會議詢答全部結束所提書面資料列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":22758.269,"end":22785.494,"text":"現在做以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員執行會及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算公務及基金預算另則其繼續審查"},{"start":22787.634,"end":22789.521,"text":"本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"157376","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752c2ecce702be4574a868a4ad55ac2447b3189f248a73be6947676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"14:37:35 - 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期程我必須要我必須要細究請署長要答覆我還非常清楚藥農業縣來承載糧食安全我想這個這個這個原則基本上"},{"start":80.438,"end":98.732,"text":"大家應該還有很大的討論空間該怎麼去承擔?該怎麼去承展?有沒有一個公平的計算模式?也就是講我們寓意縣從過去的特農是五萬五那我們的產值不是過去就現在區計畫法我們的特農是五萬五"},{"start":99.813,"end":115.87,"text":"然後屏東現在是一萬一但與你的農業產值一年八九百億左右屏東是七百多億我們只多屏東一百多億那為什麼在特農的比例上我們就已經將近差了十來倍"},{"start":116.735,"end":143.775,"text":"然後變成國土計畫之後,地方政府的劃設,現在這是地方政府劃設的階段嘛,對不對?好,我們變成增加五千多,達到六萬,全國第一高的龍一面積在雲林縣。屏東環流降下來,從一萬一剩下五千多。所以現在雲林的龍一的被縣市政府公告劃設這個面積,已經高過屏東,高達十二倍之多。"},{"start":145.339,"end":169.492,"text":"要雲林農民去承載這樣所謂的糧食安全優良農地的面積站在你的視野從高的方向去看下去對雲林而言是公平嗎?這樣的比喻是正確嗎?再對照彰化彰化可以選出四個立委雲林才選出兩個立委按人口從農人口從土地的面積為什麼雲林也大過於彰化?這邏輯是什麼?"},{"start":176.083,"end":194.169,"text":"這個規劃的依循又是什麼?當然縣市政府如果已經化射上出了嚴重的問題的情況之下,再把這樣的一個縣市國土計畫送到中央來,你中央該如何去做處置、去做處理?這是第一件事情。時間的關係,我請署長要快速地導我怎麼處理、怎麼應應。"},{"start":198.078,"end":222.099,"text":"謝謝因為的確委員在擔心的這一個部分也是現在在程序上一直被誤解但是其實就像你講的農民都是對自己的土地會有期待簡單來講雖然我的國土計畫也容許項目會比較多但是就會卡在過去的認知它是特農它是農一但是事實上我們國土計畫的農一農二對我們來講"},{"start":224.161,"end":252.008,"text":"以後的使用項目都是一致的。」這一點其實是很重要。第二個也沒有影響他任何權利。但是今天農民擔心的是說我會不會長久就這樣被限制。那事實上國土計畫比現在的區域計畫還要有彈性。他以後還是可以變更。國土計畫比現在的區域計畫還有彈性嗎?對不對?所以如果變化最容易之後就很簡單的請教吧。可不可以新建農舍?可不可以新建自宅室?"},{"start":253.329,"end":263.257,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":273.922,"end":299.516,"text":"造成農民恐慌,當國家、當中央你要推這個政策,然後這個政策不是這個樣子,然後地方這種公開的場合或討論新聞,一而再再而三變做農業之後,就是有做非常嚴謹的相關限制,甚至於透過圖卡一直在講說,農地判死刑,一輩子賣冰心,我們做農奴,你們怎麼回應?"},{"start":300.596,"end":319.465,"text":"你們有到地方去開嗎?你們有到地方去開說明會嗎?你們有透過第四台的左馬燈去做說明嗎?你們有透過電視節目的裝潢好好去表達這個不是事實不要被這個地方政府用詐欺的行為讓你們的土地價值直直崩落你們有做過嗎?有嗎?你們有第一時間做反應嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":325.773,"end":337.577,"text":"對,謝謝委員吶,其實在...你們為什麼從六一到現在,今天還好張偉有牌,我們才有機會,在上次的攻擊跟現在,有機會把這事情講清楚,講清楚只有這個頻道夠嗎?他們已經辦了多少場了,每一場都這麼講,連六幫罵紅大。"},{"start":345.2,"end":353.985,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":371.861,"end":395.807,"text":"貴單位怎麽做?貴單位怎麽應應?若無所謂的事,對無所謂的開始說不出別種之內就對了。您怎麼歡迎?您怎麼做出力?根文報告,其實我們大概第一時間很多新聞都有立即澄清啦。我們只要有發現,我們都立即澄清啦。人家是開記者規定會做單位的,一段落七百個就對了。聽到會做五個訊息中,快要跟萬多人啦。"},{"start":397.611,"end":399.033,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":412.403,"end":427.11,"text":"在上市小英總統的任內我們怎麼讓三保一金可以立法完成我們怎麼樣的讓補助補貼有人在講補助補貼會因為政策改變我要請教署長簡單說明一下特別補償特別補償是依據什麼補助補貼又是依據什麼"},{"start":430.652,"end":459.094,"text":"因為特別補償其實沒有任何的依據因為特別補償指的是政府剝奪人民的財產那目前全台灣就是只有公社保留地還有文化資產這兩個是適用的但是如果補貼它可以依據農業相關的法規包含農發條例或相關的法規它是在現行的制度底下我增加新的補貼讓你在從事農業更有保障"},{"start":459.514,"end":460.295,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":472.659,"end":490.831,"text":"合廠不是依照法律規範去認定才有辦法去做處理嗎?怎麼會補助補貼?就會因為政策改變。那特別補償就不會,一樣都是依據法律。地方政府,一樣是政府講這樣的話,你們誰第一個時間做回應?你跟我講,針對這部分你們誰第一個時間做回應?"},{"start":492.096,"end":493.396,"text":"沒有啊!沒有啊!沒有啊!沒有啊!"},{"start":519.77,"end":521.911,"text":"內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":546.44,"end":548.04,"text":"國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":570.863,"end":586.652,"text":"但是法律沒有啊!法律就是沒有嘛!所以有人到現在不想上,你就不再執行嘛!所以你就存言這條都而已嘛!在那裡是法律啦!在那裡是法律啦!但是你要你馬國土計畫、吳明華、講農地化私營、講知識人變農委員,你還要發言?你還要今天來這個舞台講,也不一定要言耶!"},{"start":594.207,"end":594.928,"text":"主席,對不起,謝謝,感謝。"},{"start":615.731,"end":628.543,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第11屆第2"}]}},{"id":"16294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16294","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d24e6619f7e9d11f8d2752fdacda41c86b104c5adbfed68f7e7edc76f5a681a745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案。\n四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案。\n（僅進行詢答，相關預算提案請於11月28日下午2時前提出）\n【11月20日及21日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-21T08:31:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T13:10:00+08:00","duration":16719,"影片長度":"04:38:39","委員發言時間":"08:31:21 - 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bicy、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicy、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicy、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicy、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicy、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":1892.09,"end":1910.981,"text":""},{"start":1911.081,"end":1934.42,"text":"adequate to the local story of the community,一文工作者讓各地發展出各自具有經濟效益、觀光潛力,還有教育文化意義的文化基地。在文化產業方面,我們爭取到第二個國發基金100億,期待壯大台灣文化內容,提升國際競爭力。"},{"start":1938.012,"end":1957.005,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":1957.005,"end":1976.357,"text":""},{"start":1976.573,"end":1993.52,"text":"追上日本和韓國,我們會持續鼓勵臺灣原創作品的產製、跨域IP的創造,提供創作者更好的環境,同時發展更多元的數位閱讀,並且支持實體書店的運作和串聯。"},{"start":1994.56,"end":2017.648,"text":"鼓勵大家到書店買書看書還有傳書在表演藝術方面我們努力讓更多中小型的團隊成長茁壯讓中壯世代地方團隊可以有更多的能量創作出更多在國際市場上有辨識度的作品在國際舞台上吸引大家的眼球"},{"start":2019.11,"end":2037.809,"text":"我們也會加強扶植視覺藝術的青年世代同時中壯世代藝術家提升國際能見度支持台灣藝術家到國際參展或是在國內專業的展覽空間展出並且透過公共藝術的發展讓台灣的視覺藝術家有更大的發展空間"},{"start":2044.23,"end":2064.739,"text":"為了打造更多的Made in Taiwan的文創與時尚的品牌我們會加強台灣IP品牌深化故事力和授權的運用整合永續時尚產業鏈讓台灣的服裝設計不只被更多人看見還有被更多人來穿戴台灣的漫畫作品正處於"},{"start":2069.633,"end":2088.097,"text":""},{"start":2088.677,"end":2112.568,"text":""},{"start":2113.587,"end":2135.868,"text":"國家鐵道博物館園區也會考量臨近的觀光資源和人潮打造成吸引全民甚至國際遊客的鐵道博物館園區。以上我們強建臺灣文化產業的體質就是為了顧好藝文工作者讓他們可以向世界展現臺灣文化能量。"},{"start":2137.096,"end":2163.854,"text":"我們也會盡最大的力量來協助他們站上國際舞台,像是跨部會合作、落實文化外交、擴大影視內容的國際通路、文學外藝作品的推廣,支持台灣藝文創作者進軍國際展會、藝術節或是國際場館等,像是明年即將到來的大阪世博。"},{"start":2165.103,"end":2190.527,"text":"接下來,我們也會持續支持公視各頻道經營,產製專業優質的影音內容,持續推動國家語言建構母語的友善環境,推動重建台灣藝術史2.0,持續挖掘研究台灣的藝文故事,並且在族群文化、多元性別、壯世代等領域持續努力。"},{"start":2192.079,"end":2205.329,"text":"有關114年度預算編列情況的部分文化部主管114年稅出預算290.1億加上前三五期預算編列的13.8億共303.9億是歷年最高。懇請各位委員大力支持有關114年度預算重點說明如下"},{"start":2220.083,"end":2229.93,"text":"一、地方藝文餐館、博物館及地方文化館深耕計畫5.9億、重建臺灣藝術史2.0計畫4.6億、案內影視基地發展計畫2億、打造永續共好地方穿深計畫1.3億、文化部聯合典藏中心整建計畫1億、"},{"start":2244.701,"end":2248.066,"text":"國際數位傳播計畫10億公共電視內容產製與應用計畫8.1億出版產業最新方案計畫2億影視音產業續航發展計畫15億"},{"start":2261.534,"end":2274.502,"text":"厲史與文化資產維護發展計畫11.8億兩廳院藝文推廣欄道地面景觀設計2.2億國父紀念館古蹟整修文化設施服務提升計畫1.5億"},{"start":2277.083,"end":2303.465,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金部分總收入9.5億總支出10.8億收支相抵少了1.3億文化發展基金方面基金來源編3億基金用途編1.5億基金來源跟用途相抵後還剩下1.5億行政法人部分國家表演藝術中心總收入列了33.1億文化內容測試院總收入列9.4億"},{"start":2305.306,"end":2316.432,"text":"國家電影及視訊中心總收入編4億財團法人文化部主管12家財團法人114年度總預算編收66億。文化部作為臺灣藝術文化的服務者將持續文化永續世界臺灣為核心理念持續努力114年度各項文化施政預算。懇請各位委員持續支持。謝謝。"},{"start":2337.348,"end":2344.954,"text":"好,謝謝李部長的口頭報告。那現在我們進行綜合詢答。每位出席委員質詢8分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘。列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘,發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分。"},{"start":2352.675,"end":2370.106,"text":"委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員范雲芸質詢結束後進行臨時提案。處理臨時提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理。首先我們先請發言登記第一位林倩琦委員質詢。"},{"start":2381.1,"end":2390.431,"text":"謝謝主席。我們的院同仁還有我們文化部的同仁大家好。首先我請我們文化部李部長,謝謝。好,有請李部長。"},{"start":2394.921,"end":2413.762,"text":"部長,剛才聽到您希望大家來支持您的這個預算,不過本席這邊有一些困難,因為我們追了你們辦公室很久很久的這個有關於相關計畫的一些細部的內容,一直到現在本席也都拿不到,所以我們就看能夠怎麼樣來支持。"},{"start":2414.583,"end":2430.777,"text":"首先本席要跟您談的一下是這個人權博物館本席在之前有質詢過目前你們的主題展都聚集在白色恐怖時期在許多的內容上你們也一直強化這樣一個概念但是依據國家人權博物館的組織法第三條"},{"start":2433.339,"end":2447.926,"text":"議會應該來推動當代的人權理念的發展本席之前也一直跟您提醒各個歷史時期跟所有族群本席這邊也提醒您先去確認一下學界在講的歷史時期是指什麼樣子的階段"},{"start":2448.746,"end":2464.433,"text":"所以這個是時間性另外一個是項目婦女、新住民、原住民等等的多元人權議題那應該有一定的比重所以這個跟你們人權博物館的組織法第3條的規定不符不過我這邊提醒請你們不要再用行政命令來偷渡"},{"start":2467.014,"end":2489.108,"text":"在不義遺址的定義上也有一樣的情形我還是提醒這個東西要涵蓋各個歷史時期的壓迫事件不是只有某一個政權的錯誤所以這個著重點本席這邊提醒歷史敘述的客觀性、公正性不能只是政治勢力的單方面操縱因為文化已經是最後一片淨土了"},{"start":2489.888,"end":2514.339,"text":"所以在11月23號本席執行過部長您答應說在11月的展覽會做出一些改善但是對於跳脫歷史的選擇性跟擴大歷史的展覽範圍本席這邊好像看到了一點點但是不全然所以你們在人權藝術節跟國際人權影展的部分有提升當代人權的這個比例但是在展示裡面、展覽的部分"},{"start":2514.599,"end":2529.787,"text":""},{"start":2530.447,"end":2550.561,"text":"所以你們在教育展示的部分推廣計畫總共有3500萬還比上年度增加了一些經費本席認為你們在忽略各個歷史時期跟人權的議題這個部分是你們必須要再有所檢討跟處理的部長您的看法"},{"start":2552.304,"end":2578.021,"text":"我非常贊成委員的看法因為台灣的歷史經過幾百年之後從殖民到國民政府來台灣它是一個非常複雜的歷史謝謝那感謝部長常常都很贊同我的看法但是我很希望能夠在你們實際的作為上看到您的承諾好那接下來我跟您提醒一下公共藝術的這個推廣的一個弊端我想這個已經不是一個新議題了"},{"start":2579.102,"end":2593.86,"text":"但是長久以來大家對公共藝術遭受少數特定代辦的這個不合理的現象一直有在提那你們也知道監察院已經有對你們提出一些看法那我在這邊先引用監察院的原文"},{"start":2595.282,"end":2614.129,"text":"​​文化部沒有積極地何時來建置專家學者的名單,那多層次揭露資訊,跟將違規廠商及委員分別列入採購黑名單及除名,落實迴避及旋轉門條款。可是你們的回應又一味的已,皆或相關檢舉或明確違法事證。"},{"start":2618.771,"end":2628.476,"text":"厲於各徵選方式的簡章範本等第20條皆有定迴避條款這個回應其實是有點消極所以本期在這邊給你一個數據公共藝術已經25年了那到110年的推動25年了到110年為止那你們總共有2000多件的設置作品有5000多件那總經費已經快100億了但是最大的問題在新辦單位不僅"},{"start":2645.845,"end":2666.408,"text":""},{"start":2668.869,"end":2686.738,"text":"在110年就有公共藝術案共141件,84件委託代辦,58件集中在4家,比例很高,41%。這個部分讓人家一直在懷疑會生會贏的,你們跟利益集團統籌分配及利益分配者好像有很大的關聯。"},{"start":2687.879,"end":2701.026,"text":"所以這個部分本席要再提醒這真的不是一個新的議題所以您剛才說到很希望能夠讓一些視覺的藝術家有更大的發展空間那不好意思在這件事情上你們看到視覺藝術家有機會嗎?"},{"start":2703.687,"end":2722.678,"text":"他們甚至覺得自己要靠行才能夠拿到案子那這個部分有這麼多的批評在環境上也造就了無數的公共垃圾環境視覺的汙染那地方上也很多的聲音少數團體的壟斷常常都為了只需要辦而辦那這個問題部長您了解多少"},{"start":2727.521,"end":2727.741,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":2753.938,"end":2775.217,"text":"請你們做一個專案報告,跟繳交書面報告。我們要用獎項來收編人,很容易,但我們希望能夠處理系統性的問題。接下來本席想請教一下,所以您知道你們在這個部分的專家學者資料庫,文化部有多少人嗎?我們先,我請市長講。"},{"start":2776.44,"end":2795.537,"text":"現在資料庫部分有400人,那我們在去年的時候開了非常多的公聽會,所以我們在今年8月的時候已經修法,那也把相關剛剛委員所講的有關迴避、有關資料庫的問題以及有關相關這個……來來來,請問藝術創作者在這裡面有多少人?"},{"start":2799.316,"end":2803.199,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":2820.934,"end":2821.134,"text":"因為這個資料庫是四個藝術類的資料庫"},{"start":2840.189,"end":2859.323,"text":"我跟你們提醒那個專家學者的廣泛性是非常重要的那委員數少重複性又很高請你們廣納各領域的專家學者部長你這部分能夠承諾嗎?不但承諾我們已經在做非常感謝委員有看到這件事情的問題其實我個人也發現問題很嚴重好的那接下來我再跟你們提醒下一個問題請你承諾"},{"start":2865.487,"end":2886.857,"text":"那不好意思接下來我們看一下這個公文藝術的內容你覺得這個公文藝術怎麼樣?我想每個人對美學看法都不太一樣。好那本席告訴你齁你們這個你們常常說在地化、本土化然後又常常去中化那你們知道這些材料還有這個公文藝術是什麼來的嗎?是誰製的嗎?"},{"start":2891.442,"end":2918.945,"text":"我其實從頭到尾沒有覺得我們台灣有去中化這個議題呢好謝謝那我希望以後在你們的業務上我們不會看到去中化的議題是是好那這些公共藝術是從大陸下門進來的喔是喔那其實是工業品而非藝術品那這個就如同你講的那我們在藝術上有很多不同的看法但是這樣的情形你覺得台灣的世界藝術家"},{"start":2920.595,"end":2945.813,"text":"空間藝術家的這些青年還有希望嗎?所以本席在這邊要提醒你公共藝術設計的範圍很廣文化資源的業務這邊本席也做一個提醒在明年你們也編列了不少五億多您剛才也提到希望地方文化館博物館還有相關的這個經費需要我們支持但是我們要看到你們能夠讓我們支持的一個誠意"},{"start":2947.345,"end":2961.484,"text":"所以在你們已經執行了好幾年的4年100億的匯聚台流文化黑潮公共藝術在這裡面擔任很大的角色可是如果這個部分沒有讓我們感覺到心安你覺得我們應該如何支持"},{"start":2962.325,"end":2988.208,"text":"最後我要提醒一下我想今天我們都會提到很多有關於台灣Plus你們捧的褸子應該都知道吧在內容的部分這個不要再跟我講這是藝術的創作性那大家的創意58億的這個經費讓我們國際間的一個笑話我想也不在話下啦但我們先講一下效度你們要達標100萬但是目前只有15萬的下載"},{"start":2989.329,"end":2998.441,"text":"所以你們效度如何?三年多已經燒了二十幾億快三十億那成果卻如此那你覺得這個還需要留嗎部長?"},{"start":3000.562,"end":3026.881,"text":"我們其實對外有解釋過這些數字都跟實際情況有差別我們其實流量有兩位多所以今年審計部的七月報告其實已經點名台灣的台灣Plus跟計畫目標未符所以你們應該要在內容上更深加的檢視還有收視率還有社會的反響上其實都跟六家無線電視台的排名你要看看嗎可以啊 可以看"},{"start":3029.13,"end":3050.356,"text":" bicyn 您知道嗎?我們在幫您們收集資料嗎?您說排名是不是?它主要是在國外的落地。它是一個英語頻道,它不會跟國內的頻道來競爭。它主要是在國外,包括北美、印度、馬來西亞、歐洲。您覺得這個數量是OK的嗎?"},{"start":3053.257,"end":3055.62,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":3071.195,"end":3089.149,"text":"adequate 我會督促供品質比較高喔有啊真的比較高品質比較高喔對你不覺得很偏頗嗎本期沒有時間就內容來跟你談但是對於社會的這個多樣性跟相對公共性非偏頗的這樣子的一個內容我覺得文化部應該更審慎的解釋那公視"},{"start":3092.572,"end":3118.852,"text":"你們應該更加的檢討本席就有看到許多內容那本席就感覺到很訝異有的時候我們都要深刻的去了解一下在國會裡面發生的劇本是不是公共電視的提供好,所以我先講一個數據所以你們37.3萬的這個訂閱者跟其他的無線電台也沒有差別雖然你說辛苦,品質又比較高但是本席看到內容有的時候還蠻令人詫異的"},{"start":3121.775,"end":3143.187,"text":"所以這個部分本席希望你限期改善最後提醒昨天本席有提到的前瞻計畫那嘉義文創園區我們會繼續追你們這個美術館的庫房藝文體驗空間跟中小型劇場進度本席會在年底請文化部一定給出一個確切的時間跟進度謝謝謝謝委員關心這幾個題目我們都會繼續加速進行"},{"start":3151.869,"end":3153.59,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請我們李遠部長還有胡文輝董事長。好,我們李部長跟胡董事長。"},{"start":3182.348,"end":3200.469,"text":"來部長台灣Plus品質比較高你剛親口講的是不是沒有我是說公共電視整個集團他們在每個項目包括戲劇包括綜藝包括新聞他品質真的是 台灣Plus勒剛倩琦委員問的是台灣Plus吧"},{"start":3201.243,"end":3201.403,"text":"三年了!"},{"start":3222.464,"end":3246.106,"text":"還要鼓勵多久?我想我們人民的納稅前,立法院其實都對於行政部門想要讓世界聽到台灣的聲音,我們都很鼓勵。但重點是3年了投了58億了,結果世界有聽到台灣的聲音嗎?如果世界沒有聽到台灣的聲音,甚至聽到台灣可能表達錯誤的聲音或是偏薄的聲音,我們覺得更捏一把冷汗。"},{"start":3247.916,"end":3265.389,"text":"十號您怎麼講川普是被定罪的重刑犯這一則新聞文化部長認為事情嚴重討論後下講。十五號說要在公視董事會提出檢討報告請教檢討報告文化部長看過了嗎?"},{"start":3266.776,"end":3273.1,"text":"15號開完會說要提檢討報告,21號今天要來審文化部的預算。部長難道不認為說我們委員會針對這件事情關心嗎?到現在還沒有看到檢討報告。來,董事長為什麼會發生這樣的錯誤會讓文化部長認為說這事情事情嚴重?"},{"start":3293.423,"end":3312.942,"text":"我想這個事情當然是有它不獨當的地方不過我們還是要強調這個所謂的用語convicted felon這個字事實上全世界的公共不是你要跟你的文化部長你的長官強調你不用跟我強調今天是文化部長認為事情嚴重啊所以你們是不是把這個新聞下架了"},{"start":3313.886,"end":3342.019,"text":"我們在8號的時候我們就已經做了適當的處置是適當處理就是已經修改下架嘛那15號的時候你們做檢討報告嘛那檢討報告為什麼會出現這樣的問題現在國人是問的是說要讓世界聽到台灣的聲音但沒想到不只沒有聽到台灣我們2350萬人主流民意反而會讓大家覺得是說我們是不是認為就是這個就是我們官方的意見官方的表示"},{"start":3343.509,"end":3371.213,"text":"我想我們第一個是獨立經營那並不是一個官方的媒體第二個部分就是說我們在處理上的確是當時的記者在處理過程中他以歷史的事實來做這樣的一個說明那我們認為他是個事實但是這樣的一個敘述脈絡並不妥當所以我們就做了一個暫行下架檢討報告在15號的董事會都經過討論之後我們也正式把這個部分都已經完成"},{"start":3372.033,"end":3393.585,"text":"這個部分我們也會依照公文程序送給文化部。在這之前我們也已經把相關的決議也提送給文化部。所以檢討到最後檢討是檢討了誰?我們在處理上一共有六個決議。那這裡面當然包括可能委員比較關心的就是說我們在整個的這個作業上是不是新聞的報導對於公共價值的體認夠不夠。"},{"start":3396.747,"end":3414.283,"text":"adequate我們決定要加強教育訓練還有相關的準則的訂定那第二個部分您提到就是說有沒有懲戒有沒有相關的人員懲處有我們在執行長的部分因為並和其他的管理疏失我們做了記過的處分就是執行長替力將來對"},{"start":3415.464,"end":3417.785,"text":"三年了現在才有這個要檢視流程審稿的部分董事長我說實在你會聽到這些媒體朋友的耳裡會笑死"},{"start":3446.267,"end":3467.056,"text":"身為一個台灣Plus是中華民國政府出資的預算的一個媒體結果三年了發生這樣的新聞我們才講說現在來我們會去檢視流程以及審稿的一個過程這不是最基本的新聞ABC嗎這不是一開始在開台的時候就應該有的嗎這不是過去三年每一條新聞都應該要處理的嗎怎麼會因為現在才說我們來捕破網來部長"},{"start":3474.687,"end":3497.519,"text":"我不知道說您有沒有看過台灣Plus從三年前到現在它的維基百科本席特別幫你整理了一下它維基百科裡面都是爭議事件好像沒有什麼讓我們很興奮的事件有包括有通共的爭議有收視率的低迷說當初夸口說要百萬人次下載現在只有15萬、16萬人次下載"},{"start":3500,"end":3524.436,"text":"adequates to less than two-thirds of the budget.還有電視台成率沒有法源依據以及不當稱呼美國總統候選人等等的爭議。還有電視台成率沒有法源依據以及不當稱呼美國總統候選人等等的爭議。Town Plus過去三年多我們真的不知道說它存在的能夠發生的基礎在哪裡。還有一直講說我的播放率或是點閱率我就請教我們審計部的資料以及立法院預算中心的資料都講是說有67%其實是亞洲人下載。"},{"start":3528.581,"end":3536.968,"text":"沒有細算是哪一個國家啦,但我真的很懷疑亞洲人下載到底除了我們台灣跟中華民國以外還有誰下載了?部長,你認為我們要繼續投入現在審預明年的預算,還有十幾億的預算,因為它是一個延續計畫,還要持續投入嗎?"},{"start":3552.932,"end":3565.165,"text":" bicyn 其實他的預算大概每年8億左右所以剛剛一直講到58億其實是跟實際上他是連續3年4年從一開始開台比較多然後一直這樣下來總共58億但你現在延續期計畫你是從113年到117年總共40億編列28億左右啦他有些費用是"},{"start":3572.193,"end":3575.535,"text":"閱讀委員會主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀委員會主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀委員會主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":3601.192,"end":3617.673,"text":"一百萬個粉絲我都不好意思吐槽到底多少是殭屍粉絲你有沒有看到現在他一折貼文你講是FB嘛對不對FB一折貼文有幾個讚包括Youtube跟其他的那個我都不好意思吐槽不是部長"},{"start":3621.185,"end":3646.033,"text":"講28億好像28億不是錢欸28億你是文化人過去還沒有擔任部長的時候文化人聽到不要說28億啊280萬中央願意補助的時候我們可能都感謝了一個劇場一個繪本一個作家一個表演有個200萬300萬可能他就是半年的一個收入跟半年的一個支持"},{"start":3647.259,"end":3666.826,"text":"結果我們過去三年多四年不管是五十八億不管是四十億不管是二十八億計算基礎不同有些是直接投資有些是人事費用有些是紀錄片但不管怎麼樣這個計畫已經花了五六十一是不爭的事實那結果現在成效真的不髒啊我們所有文化部的同仁"},{"start":3672.306,"end":3680.232,"text":"誰手機裡面現在有app是台灣plus過去一個禮拜裡面有開過一次的有的請舉手一下好嗎一位部長啞口無言"},{"start":3694.258,"end":3708.66,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3708.951,"end":3709.131,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":3730.834,"end":3752.223,"text":"那這個部分我們先是另外議題不過現在被我們委員踢爆是說要公視跟華視合資3000萬投資一個新創AI的活動公司那現在董事長華視公視董事長剛好又是同一位就你身邊後面這一位是那所以變成是公視要49%華視要51%那還不是都是一樣那我們想問文化部"},{"start":3757.315,"end":3774.551,"text":"投資AI新創公司很好啊AI新創公司本席支持啊但有需要文化部來做嗎有需要公司來做有需要華視來做嗎那到底這家公司是要做什麼活動執行還是要安排位置部長你現在知道嗎"},{"start":3776.403,"end":3777.684,"text":"議長,您認為合適嗎?在公事華事的本職本業"},{"start":3796.272,"end":3808.317,"text":"愧損持續連連的情況突然間還要再拿3000萬再去投資一家新創公司跟本業沒有那麼直接關係而且這個新創公司聽起來是要執行活動他還不是要做內容影視產業"},{"start":3810.592,"end":3816.955,"text":"您覺得合適嗎?我想請董事長回答好嗎?因為大家都很關心這個事情。來董事長簡短回答吧。我們沒有辦法內造化。"},{"start":3832.961,"end":3850.043,"text":""},{"start":3850.103,"end":3869.233,"text":"不是啊 你看起來就是這樣子啊我們過去到現在你說要數位轉型本席沒有反對喔本席甚至還看了董事長最近還有到政大還是哪裡也有做相關的演講AI是浪潮本席同意但是重點在於是說你為什麼現在在也許明年你的任期到期"},{"start":3870.305,"end":3895.658,"text":"在這個時候突然間通過而且15號的董事會除了討論所謂的檢討報告還通過公式投資管理辦法草案幫非公式營業項目的財務性投資開綠燈有沒有這回事有不過您簡化了這個情況所以變成是本來還有限制結果你現在再通過一個辦法通過了辦法之後你就可以養牛了基金管理辦法"},{"start":3896.238,"end":3921.716,"text":"數位轉型本行沒有反對但是你喝一個鮮奶你要養一頭牛那這樣子文化部我們要不要改成農業部啊我們下面都是養牛就好啦來部長部長可以接受嗎一個公司因為他的虧損所以他就不希望他要繼續往前走我從來沒有反對請聽好董事長"},{"start":3922.657,"end":3949.167,"text":"公視也好華視也好我是在野黨委員但我從來沒有希望華視公視持續虧損我從來沒有希望他停滯不前相反的我監督的力道越強越希望鞭策你們持續往前但重點現在在於是外界看到這個事情覺得很離譜覺得很莫名覺得跟你想要做的跟你真的實際做出來的狀況可能會背道而馳可能反而會更加虧損除非你已經有商業了"},{"start":3949.747,"end":3971.695,"text":"除非你已經有商機了,否則以現在又百業缺工的情況下,你突然間要傳立一家公司,然後跟我們講是說這家公司未來盈虧要致富,因為要幫我們公司做內部的數位轉型,不覺得很奇怪嗎?來,董事長,我時間有限啦,因為下面還有委員要質詢一樣的議題,我最後一個問題請教部長就好,好不好?來,部長,最後。"},{"start":3978.527,"end":4006.116,"text":"一分鐘現在有這個前委員也是歌壇大佬跳出來爆料講說當初有被承諾說要公視董事長華視董事長然後到最後又沒有那本席不禁想到因為剛剛發言的這位胡董事長他任期到明年現在11月突然間這個大佬跳出來講這個話是不是有暗示可能希望有爭取這個位置"},{"start":4007.13,"end":4011.053,"text":"您認為公視董事長或華視董事長可以拿來做人事酬庸使用嗎?"},{"start":4037.09,"end":4058.473,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4058.993,"end":4085.953,"text":"對文化部來講這一點都沒辦法干預這個這我現在講的是實話喔因為我自己曾經做過華視我是自己考試進去的九個人考試我的經驗中我不覺得是外面想像中說我要給誰就給誰我謝謝你問這問題但是本期只一句話啦部長如果說你這樣講的話你就代表是說我們這個前委員他的爆料是無敵放矢他的爆料不是事實"},{"start":4087.416,"end":4087.997,"text":"接下來我們有請柯志恩委員質詢。"},{"start":4119.591,"end":4120.092,"text":"李卜長、胡董事長"},{"start":4132.519,"end":4155.526,"text":"謝謝我今天看到李遠部長跟我們的胡董事長站在一起我真是不禁的非常的感慨過去呢一位就是我們的實務的工作者一位是我們美改的學者今天兩位都握有我們所謂的這個最大的一個權利我們就來看看到底過去你們的理論有沒有辦法化為實務然後成效到底是如何首先我先延續一下我想請問部長"},{"start":4157.067,"end":4161.915,"text":"黨政軍退出媒體,目前為止你認為這還是美改團體的普世價值嗎?"},{"start":4163.107,"end":4188.043,"text":"當然是當年我們在2006年黨政軍特殊媒體兩家公媒用標說的方式出去...所以你認為現在這個價值還是存在你也遵守這樣的一個價值但是我們先來看看那剛剛孟愷委員也特別提到了這當然是因為余天我就直接講了嘛因為他說民進黨本來要給我公視但是華視但是呢他說連公視大家都會拿來酬庸"},{"start":4188.683,"end":4188.783,"text":"閱讀者們的意見"},{"start":4206.229,"end":4211.371,"text":"adequate to the current political debate, the current political debate"},{"start":4228.097,"end":4258.097,"text":""},{"start":4258.097,"end":4259.158,"text":"議長,你對公視有多大影響力?你對公視的所謂的獨立自主你覺得你管得到嗎?"},{"start":4270.701,"end":4270.841,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":4290.748,"end":4297.53,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":4320.075,"end":4344.713,"text":"11月15日公式開董事會這件事情你知道嗎?我不知道,我完全不會插手他們的董事會。因為有關投資這個部分,譬如說資產活化或者投資新公司,它報備給文化部,文化部有責任要去看。所以他們所做的決定你文化部要不要背書?"},{"start":4345.794,"end":4351.098,"text":"你要嚴審啊?你要背書吧?如果經過我們審查後當然就背書啊。好,那我看你有沒有審查嘛,我們來看看吧。我覺得很奇怪,這公館什麼時候變成一個秘密組織的?11月4號才召開所謂的創新創意的會議,而且當初所有的資料都被為機密,開完全部回收。11月10號的時候我有揭露,11月15號又開董事會,不僅很快速地通過投資管理辦法,"},{"start":4370.353,"end":4373.394,"text":"那有董監事呢他認為看到這項辦法他覺得需要花多一點時間來瞭解但是不被接受最後呢在沒有投票表決的狀況之下立刻通過而且被要求要簽下保密協議董監事也不跟對外發言有沒有這種事什麼時候搞得這麼黑箱了"},{"start":4387.859,"end":4388.86,"text":"這個是不是可以請董事長親自回答一下。"},{"start":4407.318,"end":4408.438,"text":" bicyn 其實長期因為華視的虧損。"},{"start":4424.312,"end":4426.033,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":4453.937,"end":4459.682,"text":"這不是事實啊。你要不要聽聽我們董事長的回答?因為我們時常看到片面的說法。我可以講董事長,我們還是往下看喔。你看,你這個整個主要的議程嘛。而且呢,11月14號,華氏董事會通過幾個重要的議程。那它的目的來說,你預計,你先預編了明年我們2.3億的虧損。這是預編的,所以好像還沒有開始你就預編明年有虧損2.3億。而且你向銀行增立了3億的額度。"},{"start":4480.399,"end":4503.75,"text":"况目前為止整個華氏的額度將達到44億,然後明年再建一億的現金流量,我們先往後看,把這個整個過程看完,然後你又提出了華氏的變革,要來處理土地,辦理優退,還有新創公司,所以從11月4號、11月14號到11月15號,快速通過要求保密回收資料列為機密,三分之二條款全部鬆綁,再往下看。"},{"start":4506.391,"end":4512.395,"text":"然後呢這裡面為什麼我們大家對華視這麼樣子的覺得他是一個非常重要的議案因為土地開發我沒有說任何事情因為我只說他是何其敏感要活化要創新沒有問題但是我們還是要去問往下來看一下因為時間非常的有限公視創立了非常重要的把關的機制你要做任何的投資你必須要佔投資單位的三分之二的限制你在11月15號你把它解除"},{"start":4535.171,"end":4537.234,"text":"所以說呢你對這樣的所謂的3000萬你要投資這個AI的這個這樣一個層面如果未來為什麼要做這樣的一個條款就是未來萬一倒閉虧損"},{"start":4546.127,"end":4550.371,"text":"你到底是誰要來負責?所以我說,你要設立,你要轉型,你要做任何的事情,我只問部長,你認為不認為需要有一個救責條款?否則這都是我們人民的錢啊!都是我們人民的錢啊!而且你放手一搏,我只問,一個公共服務的價值的設立的宗旨在哪裡?然後呢,你剛講了一堆,你剛回到洪木凱問題回答到一半。"},{"start":4568.169,"end":4574.074,"text":"我們也問啊,成立一個新的公司供廣集團目前有1200個員工,1200個員工找不到任何人可以來做你創新創業的這樣子的一個所謂的活動的執行,你需要額外再成立額外的公司來做這樣的事情嗎?這樣合理嗎?而且你告訴我們你三年之內可以這個損益虧損平衡,你相信嗎?"},{"start":4593.448,"end":4594.769,"text":"adequate to the market"},{"start":4609.036,"end":4638.729,"text":""},{"start":4638.929,"end":4647.863,"text":"所以你要一個這樣子的營運的部分裡面你要來成立一個新的3000萬的公司你說你可以說服我們嗎本業沒有辦法做好你覺得這可以說服我們嗎好吧那請胡董事長你可以一併來做說明"},{"start":4654.821,"end":4657.705,"text":"我們很快因為從納入公廣集團以來我們的平均虧損是2.5億這幾年您列的虧損都是在平均虧損值以下但是我們的營運成本不斷增加以去年來講"},{"start":4671.303,"end":4676.604,"text":"我們去年比前年的利息支出就增加了兩千多萬,兩千六百多萬。對,我們已經在縮短。對,所以我們要負責任的做這件事情。對,所以我們要負責任的做這件事情。"},{"start":4700.831,"end":4715.536,"text":"况且在整個的過程當中到底我剛剛所提到的有需要這麼樣秘密有需要這麼黑箱有需要這麼樣的保密不准外洩嗎?我們所有的董事都開過專案會議而且各項的會議包括我們施董事的董董事的董董事說說當仁不讓這件事情當仁不讓我們一定要積極"},{"start":4721.158,"end":4729.025,"text":"對不起,你要積極的推動的話,你也要說服我們立法院給你要不要給你這筆3000萬,因為到目前為止我還看不到出一個端倪,因為剛剛我所提出的問題你們還沒有辦法給我解決。最後我利用最短的時間來問一下文化部。那個我們小野部長,你知道台灣plus在第幾個頻道嗎?"},{"start":4744.119,"end":4749.403,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":4764.761,"end":4769.282,"text":"大概200多吧?100多200多頂多一個台中的台中的給你個80幾的那這個部分是所有的委員都會看到的我還是特別強調你看公司的基金的預的收入那個短處從110年到現在不斷的短處是這麼樣的多往下還有最重要的是我還是回應一下真的你們所給我們的這個資訊當中然後呢告訴我們說臺灣這個東西跟臺灣的主流媒體我們的臺灣plus"},{"start":4794.249,"end":4798.791,"text":"Judge 1 主流國際媒體CNN、BBC、彭博半島電台等並列"},{"start":4819.949,"end":4825.432,"text":"adequate to the list of the most famous TV stations worldwide."},{"start":4845.103,"end":4846.104,"text":"閱讀中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":4864.6,"end":4869.724,"text":"那你看你砸了一億多你觀看次數的比率還是以亞洲為主我們當以英文發音來去看的話其實美洲只占17.7更不要說是歐洲歐洲還有很多法語語系他們更不太看我只是呈現一個事實給你看再往下"},{"start":4880.452,"end":4896.596,"text":""},{"start":4896.596,"end":4913.012,"text":""},{"start":4913.252,"end":4917.175,"text":"閱讀三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":4934.906,"end":4963.2,"text":""},{"start":4976.377,"end":4976.577,"text":"蕭美玲議員"},{"start":4994.47,"end":5010.648,"text":"外美林委員你好不要緊張好慢慢來好緊張超緊張喔不會啊我看您今天回答都蠻好的因為有很多反正就我都不知道了嘛怎麼辦喔但是呢剛剛也有委員建議要這個排個專報我來看看沒時間好不好這樣可以讓你好好的去了解一下喔"},{"start":5011.289,"end":5034.486,"text":"那部長我想在日前我們有這個嫌犯在恐嚇文化部還有戲院、報社、媒體要求限期下架國有器官這部講述這個活摘器官的紀錄片那不然他就要什麼引爆炸彈或者是揚言殺害觀賞的這個民眾等等那這件事情文化部或者是您本身有沒有受到感覺到威脅感?"},{"start":5036.001,"end":5036.281,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":5051.378,"end":5074.791,"text":"這件事情雖然文化部沒有說出什麼爆裂物也沒有嫌犯去得逞不過其實已經有影城電影院它基於安全考量所以它被迫停止播映那在觀賞的這個民眾其實也是會有心理的擔憂所以以後像這樣子我覺得對電影產業來講它也是有一些打擊的所以萬一以後再碰到類似的這些威脅這個恐怖的攻擊我們有什麼樣的應變機制就是報警嗎?"},{"start":5079.289,"end":5099.496,"text":"這次我們就是報警警政署,然後像這種東西我們完全不知道敵人在哪裡的狀態下,我們就更小心的處理。我建議啦,就是說這個除了報警之外,因為它有很多都是這個網路嘛,甚至於可能海外嘛,其實這個可能你還要配合速發部,那我覺得很想去想出一套辦法來。"},{"start":5100.356,"end":5113.951,"text":"因為我們都知道一個模式開啟了以後可能就會有一些模仿者或效仿者對我們電影產業來講它都不是一件好事另外部長我想您很忙那我不知道最近有一部很紅的台劇叫影后您看過了嗎我剛好整集都看完了"},{"start":5118.536,"end":5136.261,"text":"都看完了?好不好看?非常好看!非常好看喔!好!就是因為它很紅喔!所以它也在我們國際影音串流平台這個Netflix的一上架就衝上了十大熱門排行榜第一喔!基本很想看但是時代可能秉林還忙到現在還沒有辦法看喔!那常常替人家在口述一直想去看"},{"start":5136.801,"end":5157.911,"text":"但是我們發現結果平台業者在這個熱潮的當中竟然無預警漲價而且漲幅高達了18%那我們國內有許多的製作人也看不下去了紛紛出聲說你要漲價至少也要來協助台灣影視成長所以也有製作人呼喊政府應該要出手所以文化部部長你本身怎麼看這件事?"},{"start":5159.198,"end":5188.668,"text":"其實我最近才剛約了所有台灣的OTT平台的包括國外的國內的來一起聊那我們就在我們的這個立場來講我們編預算充實我們自己的影視內容這件事情已經開始做了因為我們只有壯大自己影視內容我們才有跟人家談條件的那個那個能力另外呢我們能做的就是去壯大我們台灣本身幾個電信業的這個自己的OTT那壯大的方式不是"},{"start":5189.048,"end":5189.469,"text":"其實歐盟在2018年就已經通過視聽媒體服務指令"},{"start":5204.804,"end":5232.483,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5234.881,"end":5235.242,"text":"權責影響文化部"},{"start":5249.701,"end":5252.742,"text":"所以我覺得站在文化部的立場其實我覺得要更積極一點那你看我們在2022年2月我們看到我舉個例子我想部長也許知道法國政府跟國際平台業者這個Netflix達成了一個協議以每年最少4%在法國的營業額而且每年不得這個少於3000萬歐元也就是大概9億左右的台幣他必須要來投資在地營運的產市這樣的一個做法"},{"start":5278.447,"end":5282.644,"text":"台灣未來部長有沒有想要來比照我們來跟平台的業者來談?"},{"start":5283.806,"end":5310.247,"text":"其實關於這點我其實就是在前兩天跟所有平台業者聊過他認為說就算你補貼你用補貼給我強迫我用你們台灣的這個內容你還會髒到我的平寬我不見得要像這樣的話我講得出來的話就更刺激我說我們唯有繼續投資我們的內容我們只有內容夠強我們才能夠有談判條件否則我們任何的限制跟補助"},{"start":5311.508,"end":5312.168,"text":" bicycliffe 只要花更多錢。"},{"start":5329.696,"end":5343.554,"text":"其實我不知道您有沒有印象其實您第一次來立法院本席那時候就有質詢過您那您那時候有講到說你要爭取國發基金100億來做國內的大串流平台那這一點現在的進度是怎麼樣好謝謝你問這個問題其實我們本身國發基金要動用它"},{"start":5348.26,"end":5350.922,"text":"閱讀委員會主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":5373.522,"end":5391.609,"text":" bicyn 中華電信可不可以扮演一個國際的一個OTD頻道那麼它就是一個更大的議題我當然希望台灣有能力有一個自主的國際頻道好部長那我想啦就是說我們有很多的這個遠大的計畫跟目標喔那我們要發展我們自己的影音平台喔可是我們來看到"},{"start":5392.329,"end":5417.944,"text":""},{"start":5417.944,"end":5443.592,"text":""},{"start":5443.732,"end":5455.968,"text":"就是一個月吧?就在您規定的一個月內?我本來為什麼我上面寫一個月卻沒有說一個月我實在很擔心一個月對您來說這個時間是不夠但是如果能夠一個月的話那我們就靜待您一個月之內幫我報告我們市長說要兩個月"},{"start":5457.745,"end":5459.887,"text":"接下來我想要講一個非常重要的議題,我也是有請我們公視的胡董事長。"},{"start":5479.468,"end":5495.385,"text":"我們還是來提 我想還是先部長我們現在台灣Plus其實今天大家有提到在美國總統大選的相關報導中那我們直指美國總統候選人川普是被定罪的重罪犯部長您當下覺得很嚴重對不對"},{"start":5496.226,"end":5497.247,"text":"閱讀官方報道指公視發表聲明確實不妥,因此下架。"},{"start":5511.303,"end":5513.305,"text":"adequate to the general election."},{"start":5539.984,"end":5559.813,"text":"我看今天你本來要回答那個委員但他們沒有給你時間喔您的意思是發聲明是說因為檢討之後你是參考全球公共媒體的做法比如說英國的公視BBC阿加拿大公視CBC阿澳洲公視ABC阿等等啦就這個描述詞你認為是全球公共媒體普遍使用沒有問題嘛對不對部長您認同這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":5566.111,"end":5590.986,"text":"單獨這個名詞是ok的啊不是我的意思是說這是那個台灣普拉斯發的聲明你同意他這樣的聲明嗎?我同意啊因為他們經過分身我今天要提醒一下就是說雖然你有這樣的一個說法但是我們要去看以上這些國家的外交處境跟外交困境跟台灣是一樣的嗎?當然不一樣所以我要提醒一下這種說法其實不太好那接下來我再想請教一下我們那個徐執行長今天有來嗎?有來"},{"start":5593.467,"end":5595.21,"text":"為什麼公視在董事會開會之前去發這個聲明那你絲毫不覺得這個報導有不妥之處那為什麼在11月15號我們要自行處分"},{"start":5607.421,"end":5625.451,"text":"報告委員,因為這整個在編輯流程雖然新聞部有一定的規範,但是新聞部的主管在督導上面不周,我自己也要負起這個責任。督導不周?可是你又覺得這報導不妥,何來的督導不周?主要是在文字雖然不妥,但是在前後論述上所有記者在做連線報導的時候應該要講得更精確一點,這是我們還比較不足的地方。"},{"start":5630.094,"end":5635.163,"text":"所以其實這樣的說法還是不妥但是胡董事長我再請教你一下11月15號公視給執行長寄過處分理由是什麼?"},{"start":5641.58,"end":5645.341,"text":"謝謝董事長,我想我以上為什麼這樣問,就是說這件整件事情前後矛盾,部長其實就已經覺得這個很嚴重了,那你們一開始也發表聲明說不妥,"},{"start":5664.565,"end":5688.473,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5688.693,"end":5695.058,"text":"這已經不是在台灣自己國內就隨便講講就算了所以這也要更嚴謹那接下來我想特別再講一下我想根據統計111年的6月到112年的6月我們過去說要百萬人次下載可是我們看到這段期間APP下載的目標我們說是24萬次那實際下載是15萬只有完成63%112年7月"},{"start":5714.233,"end":5726.402,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬"},{"start":5742.174,"end":5751.741,"text":"台灣Plus News 34萬可是呢每一篇的按讚數只有個位數多的大概100多這是一個很詭異的一個狀態啦所以為什麼大家懷疑說這個追蹤數怎麼來的我想不管是我們今天目標值沒有達到我們的在各社群媒體上面也是沒有達標我們再來看現在我們總匡列的經費110年到113年58億當然文化部幾乎每年都要編這個10億去補助台灣Plus"},{"start":5769.735,"end":5784.991,"text":""},{"start":5785.613,"end":5785.633,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":5811.192,"end":5812.233,"text":"好,沒問題。好,謝謝文武也。"},{"start":5841.82,"end":5844.322,"text":"好,接下來我們有請葉元之委員質詢。馬上請部長謝謝。好,李部長。"},{"start":5860.919,"end":5881.731,"text":"部長好,那個一樣,當初民進黨政府說要成立台灣Plus,4年編58億,說要打造跟BBC還有NHK一樣的這種公營的平台,那到目前為止部長你自己覺得效果有達到嗎?我們現在有像BBC跟NHK一樣那麼厲害嗎?"},{"start":5882.671,"end":5884.091,"text":"五十八億不夠要五百八十億才做是不是?當然不是當然不是因為當初也是你們民進黨政府講說要做這個事嗎?"},{"start":5900.676,"end":5902.097,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":5923.029,"end":5944.241,"text":"觀眾謙虛"},{"start":5945.919,"end":5946.819,"text":"所以目標可以亂定喔?"},{"start":5974.469,"end":6001.841,"text":"所以我今天可以隨便喊一個一百萬然後做不到之後我就下修現在下修到當初快五分之一了耶那以後民進黨政府講的話我們都不相信啊跟我們要錢說要做到什麼地方然後反正最後做不到我再下修目標還可以這樣我就隨便掰理由就好了啊我們有增列其他新的規管新指標不是啦因為你那個時候跟大家講說為什麼要那麼多錢嘛因為我要做到一百萬下載量是你們講的嘛"},{"start":6003.281,"end":6026.703,"text":"現在就沒有做到嘛沒有做到嘛我沒有在那個時候服務這件事你沒有服務那你上來講幹嘛你代表政府在那邊講啊沒有每個人如果推給前朝就好了啦那推就好了啦第一個我不能接受是說花這麼多錢目標達不到然後我們用下修目標的方式來提高那個達成率而且你們下修目標之後達成率都只有七成而已"},{"start":6027.523,"end":6029.945,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":6047.625,"end":6077.105,"text":"報告委員這兩億是從包括現在有社群平台像是YouTube、X、Twitter或者是這個MSN等等經過他們各自所提供的後台數字所加總還有我們是你們加總的是不是對那因為各後台所計算的基礎不同有些只能提供這個來源的人數有些不提供背景所以我們把整個點擊觀看的次數加總而得的這個所以你覺得兩億很棒是不是沒有還要繼續努力兩億也可以灌水啦沒有我們我們來看一下我們來看一下Town Plus我拿到的資料好不好"},{"start":6077.725,"end":6097.367,"text":"大概六成以上都是菲律賓人在看啊。我請教一下為什麼菲律賓人特別喜歡台灣Plus?因為今年上半年有很多南海議題我們做了相關報導跟論壇剛好有跟菲律賓人有關係所以是菲律賓為主回大中台灣Plus是菲律賓為大中我們講台灣跟整個亞洲的題目不好意思喔當初台灣Plus在設定的時候目標對象是誰?"},{"start":6098.499,"end":6120.107,"text":"是誰?是全世界的觀眾。全世界的觀眾以哪裡為主?全世界的觀眾都會是我們主要的企業。以北美為主。北美是我們主要的企業。你看一下好不好,除了北美,然後今年把新加坡加進來了,目標市場,要不要念一下,北美與新加坡。報告委員,就是2023年那一年的設定目標先從北美跟新加坡。對,所以你們每一年你們就是根據你們就是根據你們實際上狀況調整嘛。"},{"start":6124.588,"end":6148.12,"text":"對不對本來APP100萬做不到改成兩層然後呢目標市場本來設定北美跟新加坡然後因為做不到那我們就改成菲律賓話都是你們在講啦今天如果說你只有花100萬我相信大家也不會來這邊監督啦你花的是幾十億欸幾十億然後你拿到這樣的效果你還在那邊沾沾自喜覺得自己很棒那接下來還要花多少錢要不要100億要不要200億"},{"start":6154.384,"end":6164.137,"text":"請你們檢討改進好不好不要還在那邊沾沾自喜覺得自己已經很棒了請教一下你們說川普是一個被定罪的重刑犯對吧"},{"start":6165.183,"end":6184.324,"text":"是在這個選舉後以這個然後後來那個新聞下架了嘛因為在記者描述上我們覺得需要調整可以改進對所以你們下架了因為你們按照你們的說法是因為那個是語意的問題不應該在當選的那一天講說最後美國人選擇了一個重刑犯你覺得這樣語意不妥所以你把他下架了對吧"},{"start":6185.284,"end":6209.05,"text":"不是,那個文字本身是各大公共媒體都在用的,就是說在記者報導論述的前後我們覺得可以更好...對嘛,就是語意嘛,前後文語意嘛。對嘛,但是你們不認為說報導川普是一個重刑犯有問題,因為他是一個客觀的描述嘛。所以,實際上現在在台灣Plus的新聞裡面還有非常多則的報導是描述川普為一個重刑犯,因為我也去看過了。但是這一點你們認為是OK的,因為你們...等一下,我還沒有問問題。"},{"start":6213.038,"end":6236.576,"text":"因為你們認為說川普他就是一個重刑犯啊講他是重刑犯有錯嗎所以我看到你們現在網站上還有一則新聞他就是講說川普的支持者在海湖山莊幫他慶祝的時候這個很高興因為川普呢重版白宮而且川普他是一個重刑犯你們認為這OK的因為那個是事實的描述對吧因為後來你們發新聞稿也是這樣回應的嘛"},{"start":6237.299,"end":6242.224,"text":"為什麼在你們台灣Plus的新聞裡面這麼喜歡講到川普是一個重刑犯?他沒有別的形容詞了嗎?"},{"start":6258.568,"end":6271.305,"text":"今天李遠部長也在旁邊李遠部長他我也可以有很多形容詞來形容他東去幽默的一個作家我們的文化部長或者是說他是以前台北市長柯文哲競選總部總幹事"},{"start":6273.067,"end":6295.022,"text":"然後呢每一次我只要講到李遠部長的時候我就一直講李遠部長來了他是柯文哲的總幹事喔李遠部長如何如何他是柯文哲總幹事我就一直強化他是柯文哲總幹事這件事情我有沒有錯沒有因為我是客觀性的描述但是為什麼我故意就這樣一直講這件事情一直講這件事情如果今天李遠部長在那邊他會覺得說欸等一下我還沒有問問題"},{"start":6298.729,"end":6322.739,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6322.899,"end":6344.359,"text":"新聞是他支持者在海湖山莊幫他慶功你還要去講說他這個重刑犯你要講多久你們才高興我跟你講啦台灣你們還不認錯那沒有關係嘛台灣plus就是我們外交人員的豬隊友因為我們台美外交官這麼認真在拓展外交關係我們的這個台灣plus的經營者覺得我就是客觀描述有錯嗎"},{"start":6345.76,"end":6366.115,"text":"你就繼續這樣講啦,繼續這樣講啦。所以我覺得台灣PASS如果要這樣啦,成效不髒,就算了。我們做很多事情是先搶求不傷身體,再搶求效果。沒有效果也就罷了,錢又花了。還要當我們台美關心的豬隊友,那你就繼續,你就繼續。接下來喔,我想問部長,台灣PASS花了這麼多錢,"},{"start":6372.392,"end":6385.959,"text":"我認為錢花下去要有效果本業要先做好再想其他的剛剛也有委員在關心我們現在公視跟華視要出3000萬成立一個AI創新公司對不對對吧他是一個新創科技公司請問一下在公視法裡面哪一條是說公視可以有成立這樣的新公司是哪一條"},{"start":6402.356,"end":6404.517,"text":"投資他事業那也要業務需要進行投資啊?"},{"start":6428.507,"end":6431.628,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":6452.492,"end":6458.935,"text":"adequate to the current state of the government."},{"start":6476.064,"end":6498.496,"text":"你知不知道現在公視在進行這種會議的時候全部要求董監事一定要簽保密協議我們現在在立法院質詢都可以公開直播讓全民來看了為什麼公視花人民的納稅錢在進行投資的時候要求董監事一定要保密協議然後不能夠讓人家監督為什麼為什麼要搞黑箱作業"},{"start":6500.285,"end":6527.096,"text":"部長我覺得他從以前到現在都是要簽個保密並不是黑箱是因為那部長你認為公視跟華視要成立創新投資公司應不應該要受到監督應不應該當然是啊那請把開會的資料公開好不好保密協議也公開我不知道這有什麼保密的必要啊你如果人員的薪水各自要保密啊你現在公視進行投資都要保密這是為什麼"},{"start":6528.103,"end":6549.103,"text":"怎麼可以公開?通過之後應該可以公開現在我們就要監督啦部長現在你知道大家擔心什麼事嗎?大家現在擔心的是說3000萬第一年1000萬轉給不到哪一家公司第二年1000萬轉給不到哪一家公司第三年1000萬不知道轉給哪一家公司3000萬就沒啦然後別人賺的飽飽啊"},{"start":6550.925,"end":6572.44,"text":"然後完全不能夠監督欸這個委員我跟您報告這種事情不會發生再多那是你在講啊如果說你講的都是事實的話那台灣plus當初設定APP100萬為什麼現在變了20萬你們都是永遠在滾動式調整啊永遠都是時空環境變了所以大家才要事前先督嘛我現在就問了可不可以公開啊"},{"start":6574.087,"end":6581.151,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案。五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":6597.939,"end":6612.547,"text":"我同意公開公開是不是把所有這個投資比如說投資目的然後未來的營運計畫你最後要怎麼做怎麼賺錢全部公開讓大家來看否則的話連這個東西都要搞黑箱這個我覺得這個大家是不能接受的啦不然你同意吧"},{"start":6619.363,"end":6646.322,"text":"不是我其實不是黑箱因為也有蠻多企業家寫信給我希望我鼓勵這個事情因為華氏的虧損一直沒有辦法停止不是部長華氏的虧損是你要把本業弄好華氏的虧損不是你不是你去成立一個AI創新公司靠AI來賺錢不然你後面那個董事長去AI公司當董事長不要來做公廣的董事長公廣的主要目的要賺錢是要把你的戲劇做好"},{"start":6647.678,"end":6664.606,"text":"瓜哥:「華視已經做得比過去好捏。」瓜哥:「那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒辦法賺錢嗎?」瓜哥:「你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛。」瓜哥:「它這個推損有慢慢降低。」瓜哥:「因為我自己來自華視,我覺得華視真的是一個悲劇開始。」瓜哥:「所有員工都受害,經過努力了18年。」"},{"start":6665.646,"end":6692.651,"text":"慢慢慢慢有一點點站起來了所以請委員...不是,部長如果說你在本業上面你需要經濟我們都支持現在的問題是你說華社虧損我要靠成立一個AI投資公司來賺錢而且3000萬我聽起來我覺得很傻眼我真的覺得非常傻眼而且這個董事長據說是明年5月就卸任了嘛對吧在卸任前半年進行這麼大的一個投資計畫"},{"start":6694.468,"end":6694.728,"text":"邵俊仁議員"},{"start":6715.697,"end":6732.434,"text":"那是你認識的啊?那是你認識的胡董嗎?跟大家認識的不見得同一個人啊?他是一個非常正直的人,所以委員您講的我可以幫他打保證啊。部長,因為胡董快要下台了,因為按照規定半年前要領選新的董事長,請問現在有新的董事長人選嗎?"},{"start":6736.297,"end":6750.547,"text":"您問的問題我們在進行中就是跟行政院去函給立法院要成立一個審議委員會按照政壇比例所以關於這個你就知道我有一個問題我也以為是這樣可是你的好朋友于天在受訪的時候"},{"start":6750.947,"end":6751.327,"text":"議員 余天 我不認識"},{"start":6780.947,"end":6807.039,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":6807.359,"end":6808.56,"text":"接下來我們有請陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":6842.023,"end":6842.204,"text":"主席"},{"start":6851.103,"end":6873.32,"text":"部長早安部長我們這個禮拜23日也就是本週六的晚上6點同時也是金馬獎頒獎典禮以及世界棒球賽四強賽的台日大戰的轉播時間在這個選擇呢我要先我要看哪一個哪一個轉播呢我是有點一直在考慮那部長你想好你要看哪一場轉播嗎"},{"start":6874.65,"end":6896.766,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6897.486,"end":6917.79,"text":"這個部分呢我希望說因為現在很多人都在關心因為這個台日大戰大家都非常非常的關注那同時是不是也影響到了我們金馬獎的這個收視率我現在考一下部長你們知不知道當天晚上星期六的晚上我們金馬獎的這個頒獎的有什麼地方看直播什麼地方看轉播什麼管道我考一下您請知道的來回答"},{"start":6925.728,"end":6939.721,"text":"台視的部分會做實況轉播。對,然後另外網路的部分也會有網路平台就做同步實現。網路的主要平台,你知道嗎?我給你30秒打廣告。LINE一下收視率。LINE、LINE TV、那個……YouTube、LINE TV、YouTube。"},{"start":6946.496,"end":6962.365,"text":"我知道網路有直播也有轉播啦那我給你這30秒我覺得你沒有把握一下因為大家都很關心這個棒球的這個賽事同時呢其實今年的金馬獎是非常的精彩喔因為有史以來是最多應該是最多贏作品參加的有718部而且是最多非華語地區的電影工作者入圍的一季是非常有亮點非常的精彩"},{"start":6972.031,"end":6995.273,"text":"所以我也希望說文化部這邊你們再積極的宣傳推廣一下希望我們的民眾可以同時兩邊都可以掌握訊息的來關心我們金馬獎的頒獎接下來我想請教我們部長根據國家語言發展報告指出臺語在30歲以下的族群能力日漸衰退部長看一下我這個表格"},{"start":6996.516,"end":7002.78,"text":"閱讀、寫更不用說。在13歲到19歲聽的能力不到4成,說的能力也不到3成。所以顯見我們台語面臨這個傳承危機真的是不容忽視。尤其在報告裡面有指出其中7成的父母主要對父母的子女交談的語言是用華語。"},{"start":7020.091,"end":7044.455,"text":"也就是說在這些子女長大之後本土語言使用者大概只剩下會堅持積極使用的那三成那對比剛才我提到這個數據也會發現其實我們台語的使用頻率跟台語的能力並沒有成正比意思就是說我們民眾其實對我們母語的意識是有提升的但是母語的能力是極速下滑的所以看完這些報告呢我不知道文化部對於針對這些問題有沒有制定相關的一些台語推廣的政策"},{"start":7048.789,"end":7075.87,"text":"有,其實我來半年我們花很多力氣在研究那個臺語怎麼樣推廣我們現在想到一些非常具體的方法包括我們建立臺語家庭還有我們的一些各種頻道直接用臺語那我是不是請負責的次長來跟您講比較詳細次長你把這個資料給我辦公室我接受我現在現場質詢的時間好再來我請部長跟我看一下這個投影片我下一張投影片"},{"start":7076.81,"end":7104.39,"text":"您看一下 你看 你看 懂不懂其實這是用台語寫的那本席發現 其實民眾對台語比較熟悉比較精通就是局限在聽跟講讀跟寫呢 跟要熟悉又是另外一個難度像我的台語算是上寫有練等欸但是本席要讀這邊報導也是有點困難我還要頓一下 又腦中必須去翻譯過表示說其實我們台語的推廣不夠全面我們缺乏讀跟寫的能力"},{"start":7104.85,"end":7121.276,"text":"沒有文字的輔助跟推廣,其實台語的傳承的推廣是很有危機的。部長您有辦法把這個投影片上面的字直接翻成台語啊,唸出來嗎?哪一段?第一段就好了,第一句,第一段。第一段就是,人家電腦沒那麼多,想到的應該要想到的,是不是這一段?"},{"start":7134.107,"end":7160.143,"text":"第一句為了要給大家建立正正的國家議員學進發展文化部主管的國家議員發展會議在一定位區區論我意思就是說其實我們講跟聽其實沒有什麼問題的情況之下讀跟寫這個部分我們在文字的輔助上是不是我們還有很大很大要努力的空間"},{"start":7161.704,"end":7182.361,"text":"部長林勇看懂這篇報導他要表達的訴求,其實學者指出就是說國家語言發展中心主要是負責國家語言整體的研究保存以及政策等等的建議是很難專一的推廣單一個語言,就像台語相關的事務其實分散在教育部跟文化部,那在文化部這邊應該是在我們的出版司吧?"},{"start":7183.676,"end":7206.912,"text":"其實我們沒有專責的單位所以我們要專責的來推廣台語沒有一個專責的負責的單位其實就是分散在各部門的業務它很難的專一那所以說我一直很期待我們文化部可以成立一個台語的專責單位之前我在質詢的時候也請文化部來研議不知道現在有沒有研究出怎樣的一個成果有沒有一個進度"},{"start":7207.765,"end":7224.6,"text":"我們其實已經送進一個國家語言研究發展中心設置條例已經送到立法院然後我們本身就您剛才沒有說錯我們就是一個出版人文室裡面的一個一兩個人在負責但是剛才講到台語的推廣不只是這些"},{"start":7225.741,"end":7226.102,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":7240.305,"end":7264.341,"text":"所以在這個國家語言推廣中心裡面我們也就會有一個專責的一個部門一個單位來推做這些推廣的業務嗎?這個中心設置條例通過以後我們會才開始研究有什麼部門因為我們是文化部所以我們經常被要求包括客家客語啊或者是原住民語都會需要我們來一起來推動所以我們最近辦了很多場很多場的那個語言推廣"},{"start":7266.883,"end":7271.588,"text":"adequate to the public, indigenous peoples, and indigenous languages, etc."},{"start":7271.588,"end":7273.97,"text":"This is a very complex process, and we will do it carefully."},{"start":7286.503,"end":7304.997,"text":"我真的非常希望說我們趕快加緊腳步我們來跟相關的學者來討論研議怎麼樣可以更積極的來辦理我們台語相關的推廣事務好那接下來呢要請教部長關於本席之前有詢問過這個文化幣向下延伸的這個事辦計畫我們在114年預計在13歲到15歲這個年齡階層每個人要發放600點的文化幣那請問對這個發放的這個方案具體的方案我們已經有研擬出來了嗎"},{"start":7315.725,"end":7331.118,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7332.618,"end":7353.125,"text":"對於這些年齡艱層的年輕人我們有沒有比較特定的優惠的方案那如何協助他們來領取是透過家長嗎還是透過怎樣的管道各種方式都有啊就是一種是原來他就手機一方面就是如果他沒有手機另外我們這個會推這個的最大目的就是家長一起跟他一起"},{"start":7353.865,"end":7353.945,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":7372.093,"end":7372.413,"text":"現在已經到18000多家"},{"start":7387.896,"end":7396.379,"text":"這是說明的還是說明的對象還是已經招進來的?已經應該招進來因為這個文化部的效果非常好所以想要參加的那個廠商越來越多那因為剛才部長您有提到過對於這個防弊的措施就是這文化幣的轉賣轉讓的情況我們已經有這樣子的措施在眼裡也希望說這個我們要推廣這個文藝藝文活動我們也希望說更全面的讓我們的年輕人來參與"},{"start":7417.728,"end":7420.589,"text":" bicycliffe 審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":7437.578,"end":7440.901,"text":"我們也希望說我們應該是每年的狀況來做滾動的檢討作為檢討的依據因為一年一年要進步一年一年我們範圍更多的時候我們可能發現的一些問題會更多這個部分也希望你們持續的來檢討相關的這些所以我們會做好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":7456.256,"end":7460.539,"text":"文資局文化資產人才庫顯示傳統駕駛有950筆資料,修復工程工地負責人有1200筆。"},{"start":7471.408,"end":7473.969,"text":"閱讀委員會主管文化部主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會"},{"start":7500.578,"end":7500.598,"text":"閱讀委員會"},{"start":7517.97,"end":7544.158,"text":"有 這個問題的確是蠻嚴重如果吸引年輕人加入這個訓練行列然後願意投入這個工作本身就是一個其實有點困難因為他的工作方式什麼但這點我們的確一直在訓練還有包括他的執照他怎麼拿到這個執照可以在現場幫忙我們有一直往下不斷的修正這個而且已經開始做如果我們可以給你一份報告"},{"start":7544.798,"end":7552.964,"text":"好,那這個部分再請部長給我一份報告。以上謝謝主席。好,謝謝陳秀寶委員。接下來我們有請葛如君委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請文化部李遠部長。好,有請李部長。"},{"start":7572.029,"end":7595.556,"text":"委員好部長好今天的主題是文化部114年的預算案詢答我們都知道依據博物館法第9條博物館應該依據英本專業倫理確認文物標本藝術品等收藏品之全員及取得方式之合法性先請教一下部長據你所知博物館要合法取得藏品有哪幾種管道"},{"start":7598.426,"end":7616.932,"text":"一方面是我們自己收購,一方面是別人捐贈。很好,謝謝部長。確實,一開始我們在這個相關的這個要點裡頭,那國立台灣歷史博物館整理得很好。它的藏品取得方式,第一個就是您提到的購買,第二個捐贈,再來轉移採集交換。接著請問部長,114年度文化部所屬的11個博物館和美術館當中,"},{"start":7622.674,"end":7628.539,"text":"有沒有哪幾個有編列所謂的採買或購買收藏品的預算?應該都有吧應該都有編吧"},{"start":7633.976,"end":7634.016,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":7655.828,"end":7660.133,"text":"adequate to the current state of affairs in the United States."},{"start":7674.878,"end":7701.881,"text":"因為我們總體預算不高所以在分配上像國立台灣博物館這種我們就編一些預算繼續購買那其他就使用原來我們購買的東西我想其實我們的這個質詢您的備詢其實有一個很好的這個互動的機制啦其實我們也在協作我們也幫您整理了其實近年來各個博物館購置產品的情況根據文化部提供給我們的資料這是歷史資料"},{"start":7702.521,"end":7721.667,"text":"近3年來文化部所屬的11個博物館及美術館裏面居然有7間購買藏品。您剛剛所提到的第一個就提到的藏品增加的方法竟然是零件。兩年是零件的一共有8間。請問部長您了解博物館購藏文物掛零的原因嗎?"},{"start":7723.24,"end":7740.024,"text":"為什麼會這樣?因為掛鈴嘛!所以他們就乾脆就不編啦!他們就不編啦!因為你剛剛問的是線上購償。沒有沒有沒有,我現在在問的是實際,就全部就購償啦!是總購償喔!上面寫總購償喔!"},{"start":7745.262,"end":7748.644,"text":"所以部長我現在是在幫您抽絲剝繭就是說其實您一開始就是說購買產品是很重要的來源嘛那結果呢我們說有多少這個這個場館是有編列這個預算來購買然後呢我們得到的答案是有的沒有"},{"start":7762.89,"end":7762.93,"text":"閱讀檢查報告"},{"start":7788.408,"end":7815.441,"text":"相關人士告訴我們答案是藏品太貴這只是一個部分博物館的預算有可能買不起但是這只是一部分現行文物、文化部所屬博物館的文物購藏程序太繁瑣這也是其中一個部分等到確認要買的時候藏品早就被人家買走我們來看一下文化部所屬博物館的購藏流程第一個你要先確認經費額度第二個我是很想朗讀但真的有點長但你大概可以理解"},{"start":7816.582,"end":7830.662,"text":"當這些東西要有專家討論、審議、通過,動完的時候這個產品也輪不到你來買了。所以我想這種流程就導致我們整體展品購藏的機制。"},{"start":7831.403,"end":7855.408,"text":"民存實亡。所以部長您要不要乾脆宣布啊,我們的預算就都不要來買了啦,都用捐的就好了,從此博物館產品的來源刪除,購買這個管道。這樣好嗎?為什麼不好?我來告訴,告訴,告訴您齁。首先啦齁,其實現在,現在呢,有非常多的新的專案,其中一個114年度的預算案。"},{"start":7855.848,"end":7862.294,"text":"重建台灣史2.0社會發展計畫,編列了8000萬元要籌設國家級現代美術館。這8000萬裡面有沒有夠長的預算?難道我們國家級的現代美術館裡面的展品都要靠捐贈、都要靠轉移嗎?請部長說明,那如果我們過去是這樣的經歷,我們是這樣的一個習慣,國家美術館展品來源要如何規劃?"},{"start":7884.002,"end":7907.756,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7909.117,"end":7935.708,"text":"沒關係 如果有就提供出來那一千萬夠不夠我想這個也要評估一下這國家級嘛 對不對沒關係待會解釋我總體來講想要講就是說希望部長了解一下相關構藏的辦法是不是讓流程可以更加的激動與彈性否則我們歷史一直在演進巨輪一直在推結果我們現在的管藏是沒有流動的就是說沒有新的管藏進來"},{"start":7936.468,"end":7957.169,"text":"台灣我們這種對文化的學習其實受到影響了那當然您剛剛有提到線上沒錯阿巴手的這個藝術報告裡面就提到線上競標其實市場一直增加尤其在COVID-19之後那這一次呢我們其實也看到啦阿台配有跟像Artacy阿到舒富比阿其實都有合作"},{"start":7957.87,"end":7968.039,"text":"所以我想線上購藏有沒有可能文化部也研議作為博物館購買藏品的方式之一你會節省掉很多開支這個有沒有可能來研議一下"},{"start":7970.144,"end":7993.14,"text":"在這個之前我們完全沒有這個部分,我想我們來研究看看。對,因為你這樣人員可以減少去出訪,也可以透過網路的方式來增加館長。那提到就是說你如果有線上購買,其實現在也有線上展廳,我也必須要說有的博物館做得非常好,像是國立歷史博物館的360度的環景導覽就做得很棒。"},{"start":7993.88,"end":8010.738,"text":"但是呢有一些線上展覽則是從2021年以後就沒有更新那當然剛剛那也是啦有點可惜希望再給予鼓勵那新館長洪世祐館長剛剛上任期待可以重現這個線上展廳的這個建制甚至再更進一步啦"},{"start":8011.338,"end":8023.386,"text":"當然國立台灣史前博物館就稍微比較潦草除了文字簡介以外就沒有其他內容我們也期待蔡正良館長要拿出具體的作為我想都在現場我想我們是鼓勵不要讓這個線上布展來荒廢接下來我們審查114年度預算的時候各位博物館各個博物館只要有心去做這些線上的這個行為能夠"},{"start":8034.974,"end":8061.203,"text":""},{"start":8061.203,"end":8083.114,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":8083.254,"end":8101.849,"text":"那有十幾家公司得獎,但是我們追溯了一下發現,其實目前為止12個優秀得入選的提案裡面,真正被10件得到後續政府的合作也好,或推薦也好,或者把提案再擴大也好,只有兩件。"},{"start":8102.91,"end":8129.591,"text":"所以我希望部長能不能我們給予新興藝術的創作者多一點關注投入資源持續追蹤他們的後續發展不要我們三億花掉了找到一些不錯的團隊跟人員結果我們沒有後續的福祉這部分部長可不可以來允諾一下好沒問題第二件事情真的是拜託部長我們一起努力這次年輕藝術家因為這個不幸出事的事件真的有非常多藝文圈的朋友感嘆"},{"start":8130.712,"end":8153.905,"text":"文史藝術文化藝術工作者呢其實很多是採用短期工作契約自由接案或專案制的工作其實屬於非典型的工作者在不同的雇主之下呢其實是受雇的他沒有一個長期雇主他工作頻率跟收入的波動也很大其實他們很可能沒有辦法被提供這種一般性的健康檢查所以其實這個處事事件發生之後我其實也"},{"start":8157.044,"end":8177.802,"text":"除了南郭以外我看到很多的藝文工作者說彼此提醒彼此要做健康檢查但是他們其實沒有這方面的幫助那當然他們還可能要次數監課啦接觸到一些粉塵等等犧牲健康作為藝術跟文化創作的代價這些創作者呢其實沒有雇主不能依法享有定期的健康檢查"},{"start":8178.803,"end":8205.89,"text":"文化部作為創作者們的大家長應該要關注藝人工作者的健康權其實本席在今天上台質詢以前呢就已經和勞動部的職安署達成共識他們願意,真的很謝謝齁這個勞動部也有非常多的同仁還是很努力啦齁這個他們願意齁這個跟文化部衛福部一起來守護藝人工作者的健康本席能不能在此要求文化部、勞動部、衛福部共同會商"},{"start":8209.212,"end":8232.191,"text":"我們一起研議出一個文化產業自營工作者在安全衛生防護與健康檢查的補助方案。我們能不能一起來照顧這些文化工作者的健康?能不能有部長的支持?我們這個其實已經在進行跟藝文工作者的這個相關職災保護等等。所以我自己本身也非常願意做這個事。"},{"start":8232.83,"end":8246.417,"text":"好,我想如果有需要相關的數據到底有多少自營,其實真的比例很高,我們希望可以一起來關注他們的健康。好,謝謝,感謝部長,我們請努力。謝謝委員。好,謝謝葛如荊委員。接下來我們有請陳培韻委員質詢。好,謝謝主席,有請部長,謝謝。好,我們有請李部長。"},{"start":8264.042,"end":8264.422,"text":"三位委員您好。"},{"start":8294.002,"end":8303.13,"text":"adequate no more 擅自生成 AI 因為他們的聲音被放入語言模型當中訓練然後用這個聲音再產出新的內容對於這些聲優的粉絲們來說可能沒有辦法第一時間搞清楚到底這個聲音是真的聲優所發出來的還是透過 AI 合成那聲優們說聲音就是我們的維生工具也是聲優的人生寫照"},{"start":8318.382,"end":8341.448,"text":"認為相關日本的政府必須有相關的態度相關的科技業者也必須要有態度我們來看下一個在動畫裡面呢一樣9萬張當中AI所產生的圖他們仔細的比對發現2500張有侵權而這只是比較可以明顯指出還有一些沒有辦法明確指出所以剛剛有聲音現在有圖畫我們來看還有沒有別的呢"},{"start":8345.009,"end":8368.448,"text":"在文本當中在Amazon的相關的文章當中已經發現有一些作家發現他被出版了新書也就是說部長您可能某一天就會在博客來上看到您被出版了一本新書但還可能是AI寫成的這個現象已經在美國發生了有些作家也開始表示他們不想他們的作品被拿來訓用AI來下一個"},{"start":8369.867,"end":8392.106,"text":"相關的新聞一樣有類似的問題有AI侵權的訴訟WSJ母公司跟紐約時報紐約郵報做著一個訴訟那他們是說AI模型用了他們的新聞去回答用戶所提出來的問題再產生出新的內容但是他們在用這些新聞其實是受到版權保護的但是AI產業依然沒有回應好下一張"},{"start":8393.587,"end":8413.232,"text":"我想問部長,部長我剛舉了這麼多的例子,你自己怎麼看待這件事情?因為我們現在是AI創新內閣,但我認為文化部在這件事情上目前為止從剛剛業務報告裡面我整本都看完了,我其實也沒有看到文化部在這件事情上看起來有做任何的動作或是有任何的研究機制。我想問部長你這邊怎麼看?"},{"start":8415.253,"end":8439.565,"text":"其實我們有在做我們最近收集那個歐盟、美國、日本、韓國法令在今年9月已經完成一個那個完成一個指引然後在12月會辦市場閉門式的焦點座談向文化業者學者跟他們以他們的意見來修正預定在2025年的4月完成指引修正稿"},{"start":8440.265,"end":8455.143,"text":" proporting to the implementation of the implementation of the implementation of the implementation of the implementation of"},{"start":8456.445,"end":8463.928,"text":"adequate to a good way but the thing can't let a job I can't help you guys you can't help you can't help you."},{"start":8474.633,"end":8501.476,"text":""},{"start":8501.776,"end":8527.781,"text":"我們非常期待看到後續的會議所以我這邊的協助我這邊的建議就是相關的AI內容我認為文化部必須要積極的協助相關文化產業業者所有的工作那當然對於有侵權的可能性我認為你們還必須要跟跨部會那因為剛剛部長已經說要召開會議了所以我們非常期待看到後續的發展好我們來看下一個關於小公事的部分這邊是不是可以請公共電視胡董事長謝謝"},{"start":8529.241,"end":8529.261,"text":"請互動。"},{"start":8535.95,"end":8562.588,"text":"董事長早安委員好好 老師早去年使部長要說成立小公視我們非常期待我們希望看到小公視我們可以讓台灣自己的兒少節目支持率提高那在提高節目的同時也增加節目的品質同時讓產業真的有人才培育可以因此而產生所以大家非常期待立法院在預算上也相當的支持可是董事長我想跟你討論我們看到的一些問題因為在你的新聞稿說"},{"start":8563.829,"end":8592.501,"text":"林瓊芬主任她說希望藉由這一次增加預算跟成立小公司的機會把過去幾年沒有做到的事情一起做好包含我剛剛說的資金的部分然後製作水準的部分還有人才培育的部分如果這是大家共同的期待我們來看一下目前呢小公司所開出來這個標案的規格裡面一檔節目他們所拿到的成本小公司的要求是相關的團隊除了製作節目之外有人事費用這些我已經列出來了"},{"start":8593.021,"end":8616.453,"text":"他們還要自己做粉絲專業的行銷 更不要講可能還有YouTube短影音還有相關的製作費會有不僅場地主題曲版權的問題甚至節目的IP會被公視拿走但是我知道有個團隊因為自己反映過後還是留在自己團隊但是沒有反映的團隊IP就被拿走了我講了這麼多要做這麼多事情花這麼多錢可是我們來看小公視給製作單位多少錢"},{"start":8620.503,"end":8640.196,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":8640.894,"end":8647.998,"text":"科普兒少節目30分鐘一集要做90集總共2520萬所以一集是28萬下面新創知識節目26集1040萬所以一集是40萬我想要問董事長不管是28萬、40萬還是60萬你覺得回到我剛剛前面那兩頁來麻煩幫我回到前面那兩頁"},{"start":8661.545,"end":8661.565,"text":"閱讀檔案"},{"start":8677.154,"end":8678.495,"text":"adequate budget for the new program."},{"start":8699.01,"end":8699.611,"text":"為什麼我這麼說?來看一下下一頁"},{"start":8726.845,"end":8749.288,"text":"adequacy在2017就意識到需要更多的經費在製作英國本地的小孩要看的節目。那他們的預算我們當然沒有辦法比可是我要問的是當時立法院支持小公司的預算並不是要給小公司做更多的promote或是增加更多的人力或者是我們擔心過往公司人力的問題再次在小公司產生所以我們大力支持但是我現在光是從"},{"start":8749.548,"end":8766.544,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8768.111,"end":8786.603,"text":"謝謝委員的關心因為細節當然我不是很了解不過就我原則性的政策可以跟委員做個說明基本上我們好像在整個兒少節目的預算分配上有的節目預算分配的比較高有的節目預算分配的比較一般那主要的考慮是希望發展不同類型的"},{"start":8786.943,"end":8798.409,"text":"這個我完全認同所以我剛剛舉了四檔不同的節目我並不想把所有節目列出來做比較因為每一個製作單位都有各自其專長跟熱情但我們不希望連這些要幫我們台灣的小孩做節目的人還要賣肝賣熱情賣愛但是是國家對不起他們甚至他們也不想再投入相關產業或者是這樣的預算可能只能拐騙到某一些自己以為可以做兒少節目的人然後拿著兒少兩個字就來騙這個預算"},{"start":8814.418,"end":8836.371,"text":"我不希望下一次立法院在談小公司的預算的時候我們看到的是那樣的節目所以我要拜託董事長我們當然沒有辦法針對每一檔節目但是我認為我們應該要積極盤點因為已經做這麼多節目出來在年度預算我們也都看見了我們真的看到小公司很努力但是會不會連小公司裡面自己的行政人力資源其實也不足"},{"start":8837.429,"end":8858.691,"text":"所以他們在跟外面團隊的合作的時候其實可能也搞不清楚外面團隊現在到底狀況是什麼也是就是說如果兩端資源都不足那我們要不要重新來盤點這個預算使用的問題好嗎好那我下一頁就積極的要求製作而上節目我認為文化部跟公共電視都必須要給予更多的支持所以未來在徵案的時候"},{"start":8859.192,"end":8862.955,"text":"adequate budget for public television and small companies"},{"start":8889.192,"end":8892.994,"text":"部長我想要跟你們說一下在文化部的所有業務裡面都會針對兒少設計很多政策跟資源我們來看一下"},{"start":8919.067,"end":8937.756,"text":"從管所的使用開始從閱讀推廣到文化幣到劇場我知道部長您上任之後你非常關心兒少我也非常感謝部長可是呢我想跟部長說在文化部有這麼多場館的情況下還有這麼多藝文活動下業可是我們竟然到現在都沒有兒少諮詢代表的機制"},{"start":8938.436,"end":8961.263,"text":"我認為這個對文化部來說是相當的諷刺跟荒謬我們來看一下在2021年全國文化會議的時候當時就有人問文化部說故宮在2019年甄選過青年代表文化部有沒有考慮同樣在美術館博物館等機關有類似的模式當時還有人說環保署成立青年跟諮詢小組文化部要不要來跟進"},{"start":8962.623,"end":8986.665,"text":"當時的文化部次長蕭中皇也就是現在故宮的院長他說可以來思考這是2021年那直到現在2024年我們來看一下其實行政院早就頒布中央主管機關推動兒少參與國家法治跟決策過程建議做法所以文化部你們其實是有相關指引可以做的那我不知道為什麼遲遲到現在我們都看不到文化部有更積極在這件事情上推進"},{"start":8987.265,"end":8999.565,"text":"但是如果文化部狹下有這麼多的業務,包括我們剛談的小公事、文化幣、閱讀推廣,還有文策院想要投資的節目,每一個部門的業務都有兒少的角色在裡面,為什麼我們可以沒有兒少諮詢代表?"},{"start":9002.344,"end":9022.435,"text":"謝謝委員問的問題我們在2024年有一個文化平權推動會報裡面通過衛福部的邀請有兩位兒少代表這個這個會報推動完之後我想我們下一步就開始會朝著您剛才講這個事實上我們雖然沒有這樣一個諮詢機制但是我們做的每件事情都會透過兒少"},{"start":9023.796,"end":9046.01,"text":"adequate跟兒童面對面,譬如說國家...部長,我們要說實話,所有包含您要推動的繪本獎勵1800萬這件事情,我都很好奇,我知道你們有召開宣刊專家會議,我就以我最熟悉的繪本來說,如果我們有兒少機制,兒少諮詢委員會,你去問問現在的小孩想看的書跟大人想買的書根本就是兩件事情,所有博客來上暢銷排行榜"},{"start":9046.971,"end":9076.254,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9077.105,"end":9104.741,"text":"如果我們所有的部會都必須要面對兒少,我認為文化部應該要更積極地組成兒少相關代表會議。那你們絕對有機制可以做,我這邊已經提供給你們了。請告訴我你們多久以內可以完成相關的規劃報告?三個月。好,三個月。那我們就期待看到更積極的做法,不要再只是透過衛福部、兒少資料庫,好嗎?好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝陳培宇委員。接下來我們有請林一錦委員質詢。"},{"start":9111.222,"end":9111.683,"text":"李委員"},{"start":9125.097,"end":9151.847,"text":"首先在進入主題之前要恭喜剛半個小時之前得知的消息就是我們台灣楊雙子他的台灣漫遊錄獲得美國國家圖書館的翻譯組的大獎成為台灣文學史上的頭藝人喔楊雙子剛用中文發表感言的時候他說書寫是為了回答台灣人是什麼人很感動"},{"start":9155.308,"end":9173.398,"text":"在明年度的文化部的預算編列中本席有三大核心關懷第一個就是數位文史資料庫的建置第二個是推動熱身登錄世界遺產第三個是投資文化創意產業我們先來談數位文史資料庫的建置"},{"start":9174.378,"end":9191.093,"text":"我想這個是台灣文化工作的基本功,它很辛苦,很複雜,那也沒有立即可見的成效,可是這種基礎硬底子我看是絕對少不了。那實際上我覺得文化部一直都有在做文史資料的收集跟建置,"},{"start":9191.993,"end":9215.832,"text":"只不過也同樣也一直以來都沒有好好規劃如何讓使用者有效的運用這些資料所以簡單來講文化部確實有在做資料的收集但有收集卻沒有系統這相當可惜喔那除了這個之外透過我們重建台灣藝術史計畫推動的這個文史資料庫的建置我們出現了一些"},{"start":9216.893,"end":9222.538,"text":"adequate to the needs of the public sector and the community."},{"start":9239.552,"end":9266.071,"text":"閱讀畫面這個網站喔他連台灣的重要作家的重要作品都查不到資料那所謂的文化文學的素材產生器也意義不明所以我覺得花費公帑可是交出這樣的工作成果我認為有什麼樣的理由在大眾眼中看來就覺得其實文化部的形象也好或文學館的形象也好我就是受到一些傷害那同時我覺得也讓人家質疑說文化部到底"},{"start":9267.052,"end":9296.164,"text":"你們是不是做一趴或做一百趴都可以宣稱說我們有在做這個資料庫的建制所以想要請教部長的是說未來你是不是可以來努力做到本席要倡議的三大改革第一個就是來開放典藏資料高階的圖檔第二個我們要完整提供全民無償利用國家編轉的這個文史資料與文學作品第三個是系統化各個資料庫部長你的看法"},{"start":9298.133,"end":9320.752,"text":"關於高階圖檔這個我待會請文學館館長跟您回答您剛才講的幾個問題我都承認因為當年我們是2019年用那個CHATGDP的2.0已經沒有辦法去符合現代運用者AI技術的期望那剛剛您講這幾點我想我們已經在開始改進我想請文學館館長跟您報告我們進度好嗎?"},{"start":9324.264,"end":9348.746,"text":"委員好有關那個委員所提到的相關資料庫的部分我們已經在修正了其他的部分的話我們會就也全面的在就程式跟資料面的部分在全面的去做檢視那有關高階圖檔的這個部分的話因為台文館的可能會涉及當代作家的一個著作權那如果有著作權沒有疑問的這個部分那我們"},{"start":9350.367,"end":9370.896,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9370.896,"end":9399.053,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9399.814,"end":9424.196,"text":"這是哪門子的世界遺產?作為我國我們文化主管機關文化部為什麼可以一方面說樂生是世界遺產的這個潛力點那一方面又放任這樣的潛力點受到這樣的破壞而且近乎與所謂地區的居民形成我覺得是物理上的嚴重隔離那先請教陳局長好了"},{"start":9426.158,"end":9435.789,"text":"請問這樣的懸空路橋的所在地原貌到底是什麼樣子?樂森的願民們期待是應該有什麼樣的復原?我想你很清楚,請你簡單回答。"},{"start":9437.21,"end":9443.534,"text":"律師內閣委員會是文化景觀,有47棟建築物是文資身份,是歷史建築。世界遺產的潛力點除了建物及整體景觀之外,歷史的脈絡內容是它的重點。當然,可是它的入口意象,"},{"start":9466.446,"end":9476.535,"text":"閱名門希望的入口意向當然絕對不是把樂生搞得像現在面目全非的這種懸空入橋而是希望的是緩波大平台"},{"start":9478.231,"end":9502.749,"text":"我想局長你知道衛福部如何處理這個緩波大平台嗎?你知道嗎?就是說他們是說這個新莊機場已經啟用所以他沒有採納這個緩波大平台這個空間那可是這種說法認真講是這樣當然是基於事實或者是說還是基於對文化資產的無知這我倒是很納悶喔"},{"start":9503.61,"end":9517.666,"text":"那好,那可是這是衛福部的看法可是我覺得你身為一個文資管理機關我覺得我們應該要同意當然我們前提是同意樂生他是世界遺產的前立點可是在"},{"start":9518.627,"end":9533.256,"text":" bicyn 作為你的角色在哪裡我覺得這個很重要事實上機場是已經啟用可是在價值面身為文化部我覺得還是要去努力去協調可行的文資修復方案不是嗎"},{"start":9534.516,"end":9559.463,"text":"所以依據文資保存法,如果地方主管機關有所不為而不作為,中央其實是可以介入來處理的。所以要請教的是說,如果衛福部、交安部、新北市政府、台北市政府捷運局,集體對這個世界遺產潛力點的文資價值展現無知,那我覺得你們真的不該出手,或者你們要繼續怠惰下去嗎?局長。"},{"start":9563.322,"end":9583.695,"text":"因為衛福部現在有成立樂生園區整體發展計畫的督導小組還有推動小組我們文化部文資局每一次會議都有去所有的相關的修繕或者是相關的整建事項也都經過了台北市政府新北市政府的文資審議委員會"},{"start":9585.876,"end":9591.318,"text":"閱讀委員會審議通過,不至於破壞文化景觀或歷史建築情勢。"},{"start":9605.546,"end":9626.115,"text":"我是這樣建議啦就是說我們可不可以即刻來展開所謂的多方的對談就是說跟願名也好或者跟國際愛麗亞協會的台灣分會或者青年的樂生聯盟台灣蠻野新竹生態協會以及我們衛福部、交安部、新北市政府、台北市政府協議局等等"},{"start":9627.415,"end":9638.667,"text":"我們是不是來共同來對於這個所謂的世界遺產潛力點有一些共識然後來攜手來推動緩破大平安這個案的執行。"},{"start":9639.642,"end":9654.994,"text":"局長您的看法呢?我想我們文化部文資局非常願意也非常樂意來協調這個裡面的文資主管機關新北市政府還有這個整個熱身發展計畫的管理機關就是衛福部我們很樂意來協調。那請你一定要盡全力好不好?"},{"start":9659.017,"end":9673.615,"text":"最後我想要談到文化創意產業的投資我們被譽為中國首款的3A大作黑神話悟空這個一直是很多人關注的話題這個禮拜也入圍了世界年度的最佳遊戲"},{"start":9675.097,"end":9680.844,"text":"很多人的問題可能都問錯重點根本不是至於說台灣為什麼沒有而是我們的遊戲產業到底長了什麼樣子那文策院又有什麼樣的有效投資策略"},{"start":9689.974,"end":9714.215,"text":"那我想我們知道我們台灣的獨立遊戲的投資者都是屬於小公司那在開放遊戲的過程中資金規模可能沒有有些限制那也就是說我們如何協調有意願的所謂的獨立遊戲開發業者我們再來整併把他的資本規模擴大那怎麼引進大企業跟文策院來合作我想這還是可行的解決方案"},{"start":9715.555,"end":9737.965,"text":"至於現在掛牌上市的遊戲公司,我想往往傾向風險,代理的風險比較小,或者他已經獲得國外市場的認可的這些海外遊戲。如何將所謂的大型的遊戲公司,把投資標的轉向來投資國內的國產遊戲,我想這就是您的重責大任,您的看法呢?"},{"start":9738.787,"end":9754.175,"text":"謝謝委員講這一題事實上我自己個人其實過去在遊戲產業工作過20幾年了所以對遊戲業的發展雖然相當清楚大型的上市櫃遊戲公司因為國發基金目前是無法直接投入到公司的股權投資另外一方面是大型上市櫃公司因為想要避免風險"},{"start":9754.875,"end":9759.559,"text":"adequate to the total revenue of 90% of the game."},{"start":9770.367,"end":9791.425,"text":""},{"start":9791.705,"end":9816.035,"text":"目前已經有大概五、六家小型獨立遊戲公司會透過我們的資金整合以及我們會媒合一個大型的國際的一個遊戲平台與他們合資希望他們直接透過我們的資金對接到國際平台然後他們也有能力應用比較大的資金去做比較大型的遊戲另外台灣科技公司這個營收也高有兩家台灣遊戲公司對於做電競的周邊一年營收有一兩千億在全球"},{"start":9816.975,"end":9832.78,"text":"我們覺得他們不要只做硬體希望他們做軟體那這兩家因為已經有媒體接載過了所以我也可以講就是華碩跟威剛那目前兩家公司也跟我們正在進行合組大型公司跟基金來做ACG相關的投資以上跟委員報告"},{"start":9833.578,"end":9855.332,"text":"感謝您提到電競,因為運動部成立建在選上,所以我想未來這個電競其實是很重要的一環,所以我想這個媒合要有賴您文策院要努力,說讓台灣也能看見這個遊戲的市場,那這一點再請文策院這邊努力。謝謝委員。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林經委員。部長請回。"},{"start":9862.489,"end":9874.597,"text":"接下來我們有請郭育琴委員質詢。謝謝主席。有請李媛部長。有請李部長。"},{"start":9880.123,"end":9906.202,"text":"國委員好部長早安台灣Plus的問題我相信前面應該大家都已經討論很多了爭議不斷那我想台灣Plus的精神是Bring Taiwan to the World就是希望把台灣帶給世界但是其實在台灣帶給世界的時候最近的這些爭議從10月17號美國導演他特別在台灣Undaunted這個節目當中他說"},{"start":9907.483,"end":9933.985,"text":""},{"start":9936.108,"end":9949.359,"text":"導演表示這是他自己的口誤,那麼在事後也跟我們溝通過在做更好的修正以後才會再上架,那目前這個內容他不會是原來那個台灣保险,他可能用台灣閩南跨府台語這樣的方式來呈現,請諮詢專家的意見。"},{"start":9952.401,"end":9980.337,"text":"好那當然這個爭議不只這一樁還包含我們看得到的就是另外一個節目這個也是在YouTube上面其實也是被大家這個多所質疑啦既然是要介紹特別介紹台灣的珍奶文化為什麼還要特別跑到這個原住民的部落然後請這些孩子們穿上他們自己傳統的服裝但是整個所有的內容其實跟他們的原住民的語言或只是他們要介紹的文化"},{"start":9980.757,"end":9981.718,"text":"閱讀者提供的詳細資訊,請勿模仿。閱讀者提供的資訊,請勿模仿。"},{"start":10009.48,"end":10028.609,"text":""},{"start":10029.069,"end":10056.509,"text":"厲我們的目標預期似乎還是有一些落後甚至在這個地區的部分好像亞洲的觀看率還是高於其他的歐美的國家那這個部分我們要怎麼樣來追趕?各位委員報告那因為這過去兩年我們確實報導很多亞太地區的議題跟台灣相關那麼亞洲的觀眾近戰來看的人數確實佔一定的比例那我們最近也在開始開發就是對於歐洲或大洋洲非洲等地"},{"start":10057.269,"end":10081.46,"text":"閱讀可否用其他語言,比方說法語、西班牙語或阿拉伯語等等,在自動字幕翻譯生成的過程當中,讓他們能夠更容易來看我們的節目,而不會只受英語的限制。好,我們加油好不好,真的是把台灣帶給世界。好,那另外其實我還想問一下就是我們部長的部分,就是這個是新聞的部分,那文化部的共諜案,我想之後可能要再更謹慎。"},{"start":10083.101,"end":10109.933,"text":"因為這個共諜案其實是跟一個台商叫方祥有關的那當然這一審呢是遭判五年四個月那同時涉案的呢還有這個文化部的蒙藏文化中心的蒙式科研這個陳德門博焱那他之後當然也是移送懲戒的法院當中那當然他是現在是判他免職可以上訴但是在針對所謂強化我們自己本身文化部的員工跟"},{"start":10110.333,"end":10130.981,"text":""},{"start":10131.796,"end":10145.386,"text":"謝謝委員的這個題目。剛剛那個共諜案他得到的資料不是由文化部內部的環境跟資訊取得。那我們目前有三項作為一個就是在現行法令我們強化"},{"start":10146.527,"end":10146.667,"text":"議員主席議員"},{"start":10173.69,"end":10190.509,"text":"adequate to the requirement of the rights of the authorized person.adequate to the requirement of the authorized person."},{"start":10191.67,"end":10192.03,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":10211.098,"end":10235.529,"text":"好那剛剛其實培育委員有特別提到就是我們在兒少節目的部分那上個會期其實我們也特別都有在針對兒少的自治的節目其實我們都非常非常的關心那我先講一般的兒少節目兒童節目其實製作是非常難度非常的高我想這也是我們自己本身曾經在這個銀飾文化產業當中其實大家都有一個共識"},{"start":10236.77,"end":10261.923,"text":"但是呢很辛苦的就是在兒童節目兒少節目的製作的成本之低齁這個我相信也是其來有質齁那包含一個節目如果含棚含布景扣掉了一些硬體還要包含他的後製還要包含他的動畫其實真的一級的預算我所熟知的一個製作人他製作兒童節目大概將近快要超過10年以上的一個時間了"},{"start":10262.944,"end":10282.039,"text":""},{"start":10282.585,"end":10302.637,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10303.183,"end":10303.684,"text":"議員剛才問到一個很關鍵的問題就是台灣不曉得為什麼"},{"start":10318.76,"end":10321.863,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":10346.783,"end":10366.476,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10367.039,"end":10385.486,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":10385.586,"end":10408.248,"text":"我們現在這一個月來已經訪問了好幾家的這個MSO的業者那他們都願意來配合現在正在協調評位的部分所以應該明年渴望第一季可以達成共識就可以定評了明年第一季就是好那大概會是在定評在哪一個區塊是在跟所有的兒童台或者是卡通台在一起嗎還是"},{"start":10409.669,"end":10434.491,"text":"現在還需要就是幾家MSO共同來確認那我們近期還會再繼續拜訪第二次所以會在他們做確認因為這個是他們比較商業機制那他們有幾個可以釋出的品位目前正在積極的協調當中好如果有更進一步的消息麻煩先讓我知道好嗎因為我相信很多人都在找小公司在哪裡我找不到啊我們這麼好的節目我們去挪威去了兩次欸"},{"start":10435.712,"end":10436.513,"text":"最後一個部分請教文化部長"},{"start":10444.318,"end":10472.166,"text":"部長昨天在財政委員會的聯席委員會上面其實這個我對您的回答其實相當的有點覺得遺憾因為我們特別提到所謂的這個文資的部分雖然經濟部他說這個礦坑和美礦坑確定已經是關閉了那也確定裡頭其實真的沒有辦法再做修復他給我的回答是這樣文化部應該要跳出來啊文化部不是應該是我們的主管機關是文資的主管機關嗎"},{"start":10474.215,"end":10500.933,"text":"國務部長你怎麼沒有跳出來說我們負責這個部分我們把它敦促這個經濟部跟農業部一起我們來修復它難道就要眼睜睜的看著這已經被列為是歷史文化建物逐漸消失逐漸凋零禮拜二的時候我要去看這個和美礦坑國務部長要表態嗎我要表態不過在表態之前文資局局長跟你講一下"},{"start":10502.766,"end":10521.434,"text":"委員我想大家也關切這個案子我們文字局來我們來協調啦雖然說這個因為現在地方的文化團體其實他們已經在支持喔只是說我們怎麼在公立公私立的協力合作我們來復甦這個部分讓它成為當地的一個真的歷史的建物可以保留可以火化"},{"start":10521.934,"end":10551.071,"text":"是,一樣的狀況就是說這個案子的因為它是歷史建築的話它的文資的主管機關是在地方政府那它的管理機關也是在那個林保署那邊我想我們中央主管機關我們願意來協調好,我想文化部必須要扛起這個角色啦那以免我們的這個文化遺產可能真的一個一個關閉然後就講了就沒有了沒有辦法再做活化沒有辦法再做保存我們怎麼跟我們的下一代交代啊"},{"start":10551.775,"end":10572.043,"text":"我們第一步我剛才跟委員講說我先把它列入我們的文化部在掌管的文化路徑它是個礦業路徑那也靠近新店碧潭那一帶我會希望用我們的方式先把它因為它是具有歷史性它是具有地方性跟特殊性先列入我們文化部自己可以做的部分"},{"start":10572.603,"end":10572.823,"text":"接下來我們有請吳佩奕委員質詢。"},{"start":10607.433,"end":10611.318,"text":"謝謝主席。我請文化部李遠部長。我請李部長。"},{"start":10615.666,"end":10620.269,"text":"委員您好部長好首先想跟部長分享我最近生命當中少數的美好就是我最近狂看台劇影后而且已經不只一刷已經到二刷了然後呢也跟你分享因為我在網路上看到網友在討論說你要問我說影后我已經刷幾次了很難計算因為我自己看平台已經看兩次了"},{"start":10640.382,"end":10642.083,"text":"adequ.委員這部影片我們有文策院投資48%的博樂影業也有參與投資"},{"start":10670.196,"end":10693.643,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10693.803,"end":10697.845,"text":"adequate to the budget for the budget for the budget for"},{"start":10716.235,"end":10742.626,"text":"假設是按照現在這個裁判法的版本中央總共短少6000多億那我們的文化預算我們會短少多少?你們有沒有去計算過?我們接下來跟他排算出來我請製展講到是跟委員報告我們初步估計照現在的算法應該會少131億左右131億你們明年現在文化的預算供物加錢加起來是多少?"},{"start":10744.537,"end":10749.783,"text":"adequate to the national budget for the next three hundred million dollars."},{"start":10755.478,"end":10759.999,"text":"如果現在這個才華版本通過我們文化部的預算會少130億這已經將近一半了所以我非常擔心所以我自己也去計算了除了錢以外你少了一半的預算代表我們有一半我們文化部現在正在做的我們正在支持的事情會無法進行那包括了什麼呢像我們的新興計畫裡面很重要的地方藝文場館"},{"start":10782.987,"end":10799.769,"text":"各個縣市的藝文場館我們要支持博物館相關的生根我們要支持我們有影視基地是不是明年也有一個新興計畫是影視基地發展計畫然後呢我們非常重視的各個縣市都要做的地方創生是不是也在明年的新興計畫裡面"},{"start":10802.211,"end":10812.195,"text":"這個是我們明年本來新增要做的但是我們預算如果少了不只是現在延續性無法做新興的更不用講延續性的計畫就代表過去在做我們要持續做像我剛講的我們對台流這個文化影音的支持這是延續性計畫嘛我非常的擔心啊如果說未來現在潮流法版本通過文化部的預算少了一百三十幾億少了一半"},{"start":10828.834,"end":10835.918,"text":"不只我剛講這個台流計畫我們的國家電影中心我的選區我的兩廳院這是我們中正區藝文廊道重要的據點這些如果通通因為預算沒有辦法進行的話裡面還包括了桃園市立美術館的興建這也是我們文化部我們一直在支持的計畫所以我希望文化部不只是我們立法院的教文委員會"},{"start":10854.188,"end":10855.249,"text":"adequate to the budget"},{"start":10871.966,"end":10875.848,"text":"好那接下來要跟部長討論的是台灣Plus我比較重視的是我們的新聞的專業度跟精確性因為前陣子有一個非常爭議的美國大選的報導嘛裡面使用到了罪犯這個詞所以當然以新聞的專業度來講相當不精確所以呢台灣Plus也急速的做出下架的這個決策既然會認為要下架代表"},{"start":10896.721,"end":10916.499,"text":"我相信台灣Plus的內部編輯的控管是有足夠的專業能力來進行判斷但是我們要問的問題就是了為什麼這麼有爭議性的報導會讓它上架你們既然認為要下架代表認為有爭議嘛這個內部的我們目前編輯的程序是如何呢有沒有進行檢討我想請施行長來回答好請說明"},{"start":10920.623,"end":10942.493,"text":"報告委員確實我們在這個編輯作業上面來講當天發生一些狀況內部檢討以後要再做改進那現在已經有成立諮詢委員會來協助我們把既有的這些編審流程再做檢視要加強的地方我們要趕快跟上所以我們整個流程會有一個精進的檢討會有一個新版的是嗎是我們現在已經一直都有但是我們有請諮詢委員來幫我們來加強看哪些細節應該要調整好"},{"start":10946.275,"end":10964.224,"text":"新聞最重要的就是專業性,所以請你們務必要精確把流程把它精進好不好?台灣Plus在成立的時候這個是台灣的公共媒體的影音平台,當時行政院核定的宗旨就是說希望能夠以英語為媒介向國際社會來呈現台灣自由多元的文化價值。"},{"start":10969.927,"end":10972.989,"text":"所以這非常的重要這個跟中國的環球電視網在國際上面常常傳播不實的訊息這種不實內容沒有專業度的官宣是完全不同的我們對你們的期待是有專業度的國際公共媒體所以請你們務必要把它精確是我們會比照國際公共媒體的標準來自我要求"},{"start":10990.68,"end":11006.753,"text":"好感謝那接下來要跟部長討論的是我非常重視的是臺灣的文化資產保存這過去我在當臺北市議員就相當關心我甚至是有一棟我們審計部的文資的提報人親自到審議會去報告說明新事項的這個"},{"start":11009.025,"end":11030.671,"text":"今年7月的時候建台院有一份調查報告是關於國立台灣大學的文化資產保存部長知道這份報告嗎?知道是這個報告裡面就提到說臺大的文資數量非常多50年以上的房舍有369棟日式宿舍有116棟"},{"start":11032.631,"end":11042.937,"text":"adequate to the budget of the entire Taipei City, a total of 537 units, more than one-tenth of which are in the assets of NTU."},{"start":11048.4,"end":11064.73,"text":"光是臺大的這個68座文化資產就超過了全臺灣其他五個縣市比嘉義市、嘉義縣、基隆市、臺東縣的文資都還要來得多。來,部長我請教你,你知不知道去年我們文化部補助給全臺灣的大學,我不講臺大,的這個文資的修復我們補助經費多少?非常少,大概6千多萬吧。"},{"start":11077.296,"end":11092.066,"text":"來,去年齁,我們補助一所啦,就成大,我們補助了360萬。但是去年一整年我們補助給地方政府做文資修復大概是數十億元。所以台大它是一個特例嘛,因為它的文資數量實在太多了。"},{"start":11092.426,"end":11101.653,"text":"它數量跟誰差不多?跟新竹市全新竹市加起來新竹市70處台大就有68處我們一年補助給新竹市的文資修復是1億2000萬所以部長我希望你們我已經請教育部要趕快來跟文化部討論我們應該要來協助大學來進行文資的保存因為它現實際上面就有困難部長這可不可以文化部趕快來跟教育部一起討論"},{"start":11118.965,"end":11119.886,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時候完成初步的盤點?"},{"start":11148.969,"end":11161.084,"text":"文字局來回答一下我想這個我們先前已經跟教育部有開過會請他們盤點我們再追蹤一下既然已經開過會那12月底之前給我們初步的盤點"},{"start":11163.936,"end":11188.584,"text":"我們來協調教育部除了補助之外提醒部長跟局長法規也很重要其實監委有給我們建議因為費用實在太過龐大你們也知道所以說我們過去已經修過文資法就私有文資來進行容積移轉協助他能夠積極來進行文資保存這個法規已經修過但是公有文資有沒有開始進行討論公有文資能不能也來適用這個容積移轉呢"},{"start":11192.406,"end":11211.922,"text":"公有文資用容積移轉大家討論很久先前的討論是認為現在私有文資的容積移轉在市場的競爭性已經不足了如果再加上公有文資的容積移轉的話是會造成反而對於私有文資的保留所以還在進行討論要再積極討論"},{"start":11216.766,"end":11231.783,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11231.883,"end":11251.19,"text":"最後感謝部長上個週末因為我們這兩天在邦嘎大拜拜萬華一年一度的小過年盛事謝謝部長來到萬華親自也體驗我們在地的文資還有我們的市集在地文化團體青年的活力感謝你然後很多人也知道說部長家鄉就是萬華也很開心您回到故鄉來謝謝"},{"start":11254.202,"end":11256.764,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":11269.472,"end":11270.553,"text":"接下來我們有請吳春城委員質詢。"},{"start":11305.08,"end":11308.502,"text":"我們需要一位能翻轉七百萬壯世代的文化部長。請問部長你願意嗎?"},{"start":11328.769,"end":11331.271,"text":"接下來再過41天,台灣就進入超高齡社會,請問文化部有對應計畫嗎?"},{"start":11356.53,"end":11361.135,"text":"部長有沒有對應計畫?超高齡社會這麼大的一個議題,進來的20%的人超過65歲,請問文化部有針對這個問題進行討論嗎?"},{"start":11374.488,"end":11395.684,"text":"其實我們在整個那個文化政策裡面很多項目都是跟超高齡社會還有這個壯世代有關我會不會請我們的真的嗎是我請市長跟主相報告嗎不用等一下我再問他問到他們的時候這個是真的嗎真心嗎真心啊等一下我就讓你看你們的真心上個禮拜行政院院會之後卓魁"},{"start":11404.593,"end":11430.385,"text":"閱讀新聞稿,讓壯世代持續貢獻社會。這是行政院現在重視的議題。我們的前文化部長鄭麗君,現在的副院長,說步步是文化部,好大的豪氣。現在文化部敢不敢,你敢不敢說這樣的話?"},{"start":11431.926,"end":11452.352,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":11460.811,"end":11466.634,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":11492.25,"end":11516.927,"text":"我真的感受到他是一個文化人,他的文化的使命感,我覺得他對文化感同的深度是有的,所以跟他談話非常的愉快,談了一個小時,他表示十分感動,深表認同。"},{"start":11518.376,"end":11525.022,"text":"那我跟部長您我們溝通了快兩個會期我常常就談討論這個問題請您有同感嗎?"},{"start":11530.213,"end":11556.58,"text":"您剛才講是您跟...對,我今天看壯士代他手上也是拿壯士代我講我跟你傳播像宣教師一樣的一直在傳教給我們的文化部的同仁做這麼多的傳教傳了已經已經已經快兩個會期了請問你有聽進去嗎?所以我剛才說要不要跟您報告我們足相已經做了事情要不請我們的市長跟您報告我會找時間我看你們回我的好不好你先不用口頭在這裡講您剛才講的那個壯士代"},{"start":11559.541,"end":11578.443,"text":"我認為現在已經到了一種文化的國安危機的地步了,因為我覺得文化部並沒有從你們的預算書裡面看,從你們回覆過來的所有的文件裡面去看。"},{"start":11580.741,"end":11589.986,"text":"現在這個的問題人口的問題我們現在有三分到2010年三分之二人口超過"},{"start":11596.985,"end":11619.018,"text":"整個其實最核心的問題是我們對於沒有文化的論述對這些文化的偏見整個高齡社會的定型然後呢在整個包括高齡化跟少子化這是一體之兩面但是呢文化部並沒有這個認知沒有把這樣子的一個責任放在自己的身上"},{"start":11621.122,"end":11636.976,"text":"現在我看到的文化部我們本來是一個文化大國台灣是一個文化大國中華民國是一個文化大國現在感受到了我覺得沒有感受到我們是一個文化大國我們是越來越是一個文化小國"},{"start":11638.268,"end":11663.229,"text":"國立文化小國越來在國際的文化地位上面不具有地位現在呢我也不曉得我們的文化部越走我感覺到從你們的計畫當中一直在做的是什麼轉型正義其實台灣現在已經沒有這個轉型正義的問題了台灣往前30年最重要的事情是民主化這大家都認同"},{"start":11665.686,"end":11683.778,"text":"走到現在還在搞民族那就是笑話文化部顯然還停留在那一個時空裡面往後30年台灣最重要的是什麼是人口學人口的天翻地覆台灣未來50年會減少一千萬人你知道嗎"},{"start":11686.282,"end":11703.293,"text":"整個歷史的一個變化,天翻地覆的變化,這就是會影響到全面性。它的重要性超越民主化,對整個台灣全面性的影響。但是這個呢,任其方無。那為什麼會任其方無?各部會完全沒有這種觀念。"},{"start":11704.053,"end":11717.935,"text":"我在問大家,超高齡社會,少子超高齡社會已經定型了,大家認為那個社會,超高齡社會是一個悲慘世界還是一個美麗新世界呢?部長你覺得?悲慘世界還是美麗新世界?"},{"start":11721.283,"end":11740.692,"text":"好像很難用悲慘世界跟美麗世界來形容這麼簡單的話。在台灣這是一個認知的信仰。我跟部長講,我們現在各部大概把它當作一個悲慘的世界。所以當你這樣認為的時候,你提出的解方就是悲慘解方。"},{"start":11742.216,"end":11768.624,"text":"但是這是一個定型的,未來我們的世界都是悲慘嗎?你換一換角度,壯世代在提的就是把它當作一個美麗新世界。你就可以提出美麗的解放出來。這個靠的是什麼?這是思維。大家沒有那個眼光,這個要靠誰?靠文化部。顯然文化部也是當作悲慘世界。這就是我為什麼叫做文化的國安危機在這裡。文化部歧視高齡者。"},{"start":11769.813,"end":11777.417,"text":"你在這個今年110年的預算當中給予壯士在族群的一個計畫只有這一項,編列一千萬。"},{"start":11779.461,"end":11806.903,"text":"一千萬當中是在那個什麼藝術醫療結合科技文化當中樂齡社交大概一千萬只有這一項其他的我沒看見所以你剛才講的說什麼多重視等一下這不是歧視嗎在我的撞觸法公聽會當中文化部各部會都是厚厚一本文化部一頁這一頁是封面一頁封面"},{"start":11807.955,"end":11833.066,"text":"其他就是一頁這是什麼意思?這是什麼意思?裡面的內容要不要看一下第一點就是沒有意思我們尊重各個族群第二個就是配合行政院所做的然後比如說我們可以在高雄流行音樂中心舉辦2024藍寶石大歌廳演唱會這是在嘲笑欸"},{"start":11838.493,"end":11838.934,"text":"第三點。"},{"start":11851.557,"end":11868.2,"text":"講的藝文活動、社交交流、藝術婦人引髮的連結。所以我們有文化當中沉浸式的。然後本部電子書、擴充的。你們回答了就這三點。跟文化這麼重要,讓你翻天覆地的翻轉。給你們溝通的兩個會期,你回覆的就這三點。剛才講了半天,你們有多重視。"},{"start":11882.793,"end":11884.86,"text":"你看看上個禮拜資訊月今年"},{"start":11889.878,"end":11915.426,"text":"在跟我合作之下,速發部做了一個壯世代董資樂園改變那個思維我帶了幾萬的壯世代進入資訊業裡面創下我們第一次銀髮族大玩資訊業你覺得它沒有可能嗎?你覺得它不可能嗎?你都一直用過去用的都是要樂齡資訊區沒有人要去"},{"start":11917.659,"end":11925.116,"text":"我改變他的思維以後,大量的人增加。這應該是文化部要做的事情嘛,人家樹花部都已經在做了。好不好?"},{"start":11928.51,"end":11952.866,"text":"總職委員、書法部的黃部長,全力的支持,但我沒有看到文化部。我本來對文化部有很高的期待,認為這個是引領我們整個進入這個新社會當中的一個起手。但是到現在,我完全看到文化部沒有這樣子的一個努力。部長我本來一直很尊重你,我一直從頭到尾就說我認為你是一個文化人。"},{"start":11953.566,"end":11978.323,"text":"我非常對文化人物非常的尊重,但是希望你不要成為一個政治人,越來感染上越來越多的政治色彩。呼籲各部會應該改變這個錯誤的文化人設,這就是文化認知的人設。我們從引法族,我們現在都停留在這裡,臥床啊,去醫院啊,沒希望了啦,是年輕人的負擔啊,安養晚宴。我看文化部現在對高齡者的態度也是這個樣子啦。"},{"start":11980.083,"end":11980.604,"text":"這不是一個文化認知嗎?"},{"start":11996.368,"end":12015.075,"text":"有沒有希望文化部能夠往這方面來努力?這個努力不要造成世代的對立,這個才能夠解決世代的問題。因為壯世代整個是為未來,我們高齡者就當分子人口越來越多,少子化造成分母越來越小。"},{"start":12016.496,"end":12032.895,"text":"請問文化部有什麼解放?唯一的解放就是把分子撞起來拉下來當分母這就是壯士在追求的一個目標這應該跟文化部非常的符合的我希望文化部好好再思考再思考我們可以來好好的認知這一點"},{"start":12034.136,"end":12059.35,"text":"現在全部你去Google一下幾十萬筆都在談這個問題的引起社會很極大的反應希望文化部應該是引導大家的思維思潮的一個方向不要反而成為一個落伍的落後者所以我們需要一個能夠翻轉七百萬壯士來的文化部長帶領各部會期待部長好謝謝吳政才委員的質詢部長請回接下來我們有請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":12067.489,"end":12067.972,"text":"好,有請部長。"},{"start":12075.243,"end":12079.347,"text":"部長早安,辛苦了。我想部長應該有看到這幾天關於職場霸凌的讓人非常遺憾的新聞。所以今天也想針對跟職場安全、身心健康有關的職安問題想繼續追蹤文化部的作為。我想部長應該知道今年我們"},{"start":12102.447,"end":12104.032,"text":"經中獎的特別貢獻獎是頒給誰?這個部長知道嗎?"},{"start":12108.496,"end":12130.389,"text":"我知道,我知道,就是一個在職安中受害的。對,就是38歲,就是因為職安,就是攝影師,他在苗栗南莊神仙谷墜谷,然後黃伯雄,那感謝他在攝影方面的貢獻,那他的遺孀楊思宇,那我想立天部長應該在現場有聽到他講的,他訴求就是長官們能撥一點預算,"},{"start":12136.032,"end":12152.415,"text":""},{"start":12152.555,"end":12174.711,"text":"我想他後面這個要呼籲大家勇敢說不我覺得真的讓人覺得很心疼因為從最近的職安事件我們真的覺得當一個不對等的權力更何況最近這個引後你也會看到他這個豁出去了交出自己power的精神所以很多的時候演員跟職員其實並沒有選擇"},{"start":12176.952,"end":12187.525,"text":"所以我覺得這個時候我們文化部的任務就更重大了。那部長可以同意我現在說的嗎?同意啊。同意齁。那所以今天就想追蹤就是我從2022年就開始希望文化部逐步努力的"},{"start":12192.971,"end":12215.785,"text":"當然我要先肯定文化部當時就是這個事件之後我希望文化部盡速提調查報告具體保障工作安全文化部也在同年11月就針對我要求的之一就是公布了關於職安議題的文化藝術工作者的契約範本我想這是往前走了一步"},{"start":12217.005,"end":12238.35,"text":"關於契約的部分當時候我也要求文化部要建立影視職安的第三方監督機制還有要建立安全人才資料庫因為如果沒有這方面因為影視業是一個非常特殊的拍片現場然後他們拍片現場的變動很快不管你們所講的就是爆破等等吊掛火效"},{"start":12244.991,"end":12262.858,"text":""},{"start":12262.858,"end":12292.858,"text":""},{"start":12293.138,"end":12300.143,"text":"adequate to the current situation, our film and television industry does not yet have talent in the field of security and professional communication."},{"start":12311.51,"end":12326.527,"text":""},{"start":12326.607,"end":12354.303,"text":"今天其實就是想繼續追蹤這件事情就是關於職業安全這個部分我們的影視局文化部是不是可以做得更多因為總不能夠我們永遠都在推廣吧那這個人才資料庫長不出來人才根本就沒有就不會有資料庫對不對那第三方監督機制又覺得機身彈、彈身機長不出來現在一下要求又太快所以我今天的第一個部分就是說可不可以給我一個時間表"},{"start":12355.964,"end":12383.592,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12383.672,"end":12383.832,"text":"議員給我們一個月報告"},{"start":12402.168,"end":12402.848,"text":"謝謝部長,我相信部長很有心,坐在那裡聽應該會跟我們看到的是一樣痛心。"},{"start":12422.313,"end":12428.8,"text":"閱讀了之後覺得雖然我們是在初步研究階段所以也想跟部長討論文化部轄下其實有非常多的台灣重要的文史資料"},{"start":12443.075,"end":12451.817,"text":"但是因為格式不同主管的單位不一樣所以彼此之間好像並沒有辦法整合也沒有辦法讓大眾覺得它更好用那就非常的可惜因為在一個我們要繼續更往前數位化的時代那如果我們相關的資料庫沒有辦法有更整合的平台使用起來更困難的話那我們前面花了這麼多的功夫包含你們所有的國家文化"},{"start":12474.122,"end":12489.993,"text":"繼議庫2.0國家文化資料庫國家文化資產網文化部典藏網更不用提文化部轄下的新聞資料單位有非常多寶貴的歷史資料因為當時就是老三台可以說是一個影像新聞壟斷的時代那等等那我想"},{"start":12490.333,"end":12511.336,"text":"他們各自有各自的一些辦法各自的規格可是這個部分文化部是不是也可以花一點心力在我們繼續數位化的時代就是把這些資料庫找一些相關的數位那對這些資料熟悉的人才來討論一下是不是可以往整合的方向走"},{"start":12512.193,"end":12513.054,"text":"國家文化記憶庫2.0國家文化資料庫文化部典藏國家文化資產網"},{"start":12530.854,"end":12549.785,"text":"還有來陳情的學者文化人士談的地方其實也做了不少努力我相信這也是我們文化部所關心的能不能夠也讓他們能夠連結進來能夠更好用這不是一件容易的工作可是部長是不是可以尋找專業的人才來開始討論進行這樣的整合讓過去的努力未來可以讓我們台灣文史資料為大更多人使用"},{"start":12561.953,"end":12563.375,"text":" bicyn 今天其實就是這兩個部分"},{"start":12579.11,"end":12579.15,"text":"議員主席議員"},{"start":12595.128,"end":12619.241,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12619.961,"end":12639.949,"text":"好,謝謝部長,這兩個都是一個月會給我報告,是不是?好,沒問題,一個月。好,謝謝部長,一起加油,一起接。好,謝謝。好,謝謝范雲委員,部長先請回。因為本席剛剛有宣告說范雲委員結束之後我們要處理零體,但是因為雅琳跟范雲委員換過時間,你要先質詢還是我們先處理零體?先處理零體。先處理零體,OK嗎?可以。好,那我們現在開始處理臨時提案。"},{"start":12649.285,"end":12657.217,"text":"今天有委員提出臨時提案共計5案,請宣讀。建於台灣Plus發展國際數位傳播計劃110-113年執行率僅68.6%,明年度解敘邊發展國際數位。"},{"start":12667.086,"end":12684.534,"text":"傳播計劃114至117年總經費共40億元。回顧台灣PLUS三年來APP下載次數只16萬次。原詞要求文化部於一個院內提出台灣PLUS檢討計劃報告。提案人黃孟凱聯署人萬美玲玲欠其。"},{"start":12686.335,"end":12704.041,"text":"人文歷史是臺北的文化觀光特色。請文化部與地方政府合作輔導納入以下三處文化基地。一、臺北市西門町電影文化基地。二、臺北市城中區博物館文化基地。三、臺北市城西文化基地。其他人物配譯成培餘成繡寶。"},{"start":12706.741,"end":12728.595,"text":"於2009年入選世界遺產潛力點的樂生療養院卻屢屢與保存、再利用以及願名保障等事件發生爭議,極度不利,進一步爭取世界遺產登錄。為登錄世界遺產計,文化部應秉持專業與文化資產保存法規範,於三個月內提出樂生入口景觀復原規劃,並協同樂生願名、國際愛麗亞協會 、"},{"start":12734.338,"end":12760.369,"text":"今年樂生聯盟、臺灣蠻野新族生態協會以及衛福部、交通部、新北市政府、臺北市政府捷運局等相關團體展開多方對談共同落實樂生願名所判緩坡大平台案。王阿波於於三個月內針對上述課題提出具體規劃落實啟程並向立法院教育文化委員會提交書面報告。第二人林盈瑾、梁曙人、陳培宇、陳秀寶。"},{"start":12762.27,"end":12775.374,"text":"近年,臺灣之繪本創作者李綠或多項國際大展。繪本亦為推廣親子共讀最好的媒體。王阿波因為我國親子及繪本插畫、童書創作者設立鼓勵機制。"},{"start":12777.455,"end":12796.561,"text":"原此請文化部於2個月內研議成立國家繪本館、繪本博覽會或繪本基地之可行性,以及設立繪本專業獎項,鼓勵我國創作者之獎鼓勵機制,以表彰我國對繪本創畫童書之重視。提案人陳北宇、連署人范雲、郭益晴。"},{"start":12799.082,"end":12820.291,"text":"根據勞動部資料顯示,目前我國約有21萬文化產業工作者,其中受雇勞工約13萬人,無一定雇主約8000人,另有將近8萬人為自營作業者。為保障非受雇勞工型態異文工作者之健康權,也要求文化部針對文化產業之無一定雇主。"},{"start":12821.191,"end":12848.071,"text":"自營作業者參考勞動部飲食業職業災害預防指引會商衛福部與勞動部共同研議文化產業自營工作者之安全衛生防護與健康檢查補助方案以強化其從業之保障,並將研議結果於2個月內以書面方式回覆立法院教育及文化委員會提案人格如君、黃孟凱、柯志文、萬美林、宣獨安比。"},{"start":12852.739,"end":12869.65,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12870.59,"end":12876.653,"text":"倒數第三函台灣Plus濫編約58億,最正確數字是34.71億。所以我們只要把下載次數17萬次,然後預算數改成34.71。"},{"start":12897.11,"end":12902.072,"text":"提案案有裡面文字有大內宣我是覺得大內宣這個文字並不精確因為這個不太清楚實際指的是什麼我是不是建議這個大內宣文字是不是可以不要用"},{"start":12926.67,"end":12928.498,"text":"嗯,可是這文化部沒有什麼意見耶。"},{"start":12930.154,"end":12958.568,"text":"如果提案人提了然後文化部也沒有特別的意見。因為如果不精確的話你們要怎麼進行?什麼叫做大內宣呢?我剛才沒有看到對不起。淪為大內宣這個的確不太對。因為我們是一個對外的一個英文頻道。他是把台灣的一些記錄內容狀況用英文報導。而且把國際的內容往國內宣導。所以大內宣一直成為大內宣其實一直成為現在一個非常"},{"start":12959.488,"end":12961.949,"text":"大內宣這個用詞其實不只在我們現在在文化部討論歷史提案有出現"},{"start":12988.575,"end":13003.439,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":13004.922,"end":13030.624,"text":"有沒有這麼難過?這個詞其實並不是在文化部才有的。因為大內宣這個字眼本來是如果只是一個政府的宣傳什麼我倒覺得沒有關係可是大內宣這三個字常常被講成是一個花錢在傳播政府的一個好像利用媒體在傳播什麼東西它有一點點負面的意思我覺得"},{"start":13032.125,"end":13035.187,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":13061.479,"end":13076.491,"text":"第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":13083.404,"end":13084.425,"text":"閱讀委員會主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":13101.86,"end":13124.279,"text":"提出具體規劃落實期程可不可以改成是協調衛生福利部研議可行性。因為這個議題實在太多年了。好來部長我們應該這樣子我們提案人連署人在沒關係我來念一下那個文化部現在的說法是在1234第5段我們第一行未登錄世界遺產這樣下來"},{"start":13125.64,"end":13143.891,"text":"於三個月內,但因為主政機關是衛福部,所以協調主政機關衛生福利部研議,把提出兩個字拿掉,然後熱身入口景觀復原規劃,那下面是知可行性,然後並協調衛生福利部協同以下,沒有問題喔。"},{"start":13144.611,"end":13145.971,"text":"議員 文化部應於三個月內針對上述課題協調衛生福利部演繹可行性。"},{"start":13170.296,"end":13170.536,"text":"接下來第四案"},{"start":13188.217,"end":13206.476,"text":""},{"start":13206.783,"end":13226.493,"text":""},{"start":13227.011,"end":13227.351,"text":"我們有請張雅琳委員質詢。"},{"start":13265.54,"end":13265.74,"text":"主席"},{"start":13274.861,"end":13302.353,"text":"部長好那首先我要來關心我一直非常關心的這個三金臺文字幕文化部的這個文化金曲獎金鐘獎的一個問題就是說在上次呢我們其實已經有要求嘛那文化部也跟我回函了啦那回函上面是講說授權內容僅限於原詞曲不包含改編詞曲依契約簽訂內容不建議更改原歌詞如果基於尊重"},{"start":13302.853,"end":13326.57,"text":"原詞曲的創作如果要改為台語正字的話就需要回頭向原作詞者再次確認那可能會使原作詞者能誤解為糾正其原始用詞不當亦引起不必要的誤會及爭議所以在實際上操作上較難向授權方提出因原歌詞有誤而須更正為台語正字用字之要求"},{"start":13327.31,"end":13345.095,"text":"我想確認一件事情齁我一直要求的都不是去更改原歌詞我一直要求的都是在下面多加一行我不曉得是文化部搞不清楚呢還是我講得不夠清楚呢這樣子的回函就代表根本沒有去溝通啊這樣子的到底有沒有去溝通還是不理解我在講什麼"},{"start":13352.5,"end":13363.37,"text":""},{"start":13366.032,"end":13384.661,"text":"議員報告有關兩行這個文字呈現的問題那因為我們有跟轉播單位溝通那他們是說從電視專業的考量兩行字幕可能會影響電視畫面的整體視覺我想現在有很多的公式台語的動畫都可以用兩行字幕來處理為什麼這個不行但公式台語台他怎麼做到的都是文化部的啊可不可以去聯絡一下搞清楚別人怎麼做的"},{"start":13397.067,"end":13407.115,"text":"為什麼不行?是想擺爛不想處理還是怎麼樣?那可不可以改善?可不可以去了解?公司董事長也在後面嘛,一定非常了解我們是有這樣子的做法的啊。可不可以去了解?我想這件事情我看起來是你們收到回函就決定不去溝通的。"},{"start":13419.639,"end":13432.371,"text":"看你們的回文上面就是說因為這樣子好像會有點造成別人的困擾所以就沒有去溝通我覺得這完全背離了你們當時對我的承諾下次不要再有同樣的錯誤部長可以嗎?"},{"start":13434.369,"end":13460.618,"text":"其實我們有去溝通,包括金馬獎這次要轉播,我們有去跟他溝通。所以金馬獎這次會發生一樣的問題嗎?有,他會說如果有的話他就,他唱台語歌的時候,如果有台語歌他就會用字幕。台語正字嗎?所以都有在溝通?所以不會再發生一模一樣的?所以剛剛委員有點誤會,其實因為他是有一些技術問題,我們每一次轉播都去跟轉播單位跟他溝通,包括金馬獎。"},{"start":13461.778,"end":13461.798,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":13476.715,"end":13505.418,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13505.418,"end":13521.169,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13523.548,"end":13542.876,"text":"經馬獎本身在整個單位適不適合用國家語言發展法裏面施行細則裏面第9條就有講說我們捐助的財團我們資助的財團法人應該要提供語言多元服務第9條裏面就有講到這一條能不能適用在經馬獎我們正在員工確認好那請你們釐清好請你們釐清好謝謝沒問題那再來就是說"},{"start":13550.168,"end":13579.6,"text":"我們現在有一個臺語家庭的計畫嘛我想要來了解一下臺語家庭的計畫因為從9月就說開始可以讓地方政府來申請了那我參加一些活動的時候也都有叫我掃QR code可以去做這個登記這樣子但是我想要知道到底有多少人知道臺語家庭的這一個計畫這個宣傳到底在哪裡啊這可不可以請是次長來說明一下嗎我們已經在往下進行請次長跟您報告"},{"start":13581.986,"end":13582.026,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":13601.428,"end":13626.644,"text":"adequate開始去我們這個網站上來做登錄這個部分我們先處理了行政單位的通知然後新聞稿或者是記者會的部分也都在規劃當中所以我們預計會有記者會來擴大辦理嗎?因為我想不是只有台語現在已經會講的台語家庭要來知道這件事情啦應該是所有的人都應該要知道這個訊息所以它應該要有一個大型的宣傳所以你們相關的是有一些記者會大概是在什麼時候會舉辦呢?"},{"start":13628.305,"end":13635.089,"text":"adequate to the end of the year, we will be able to find a suitable venue."},{"start":13645.934,"end":13669.613,"text":"adequate 現在推廣的團體一定要知道這件事情然後相關的網路的宣傳好我想這都是要一起來配合才能夠讓這件事情真正的傳承下去好嗎謝謝那再來就是延續這個問題喔因為我們其實在台語家庭的時候有講說我們需要是我們希望可以有一些基地嗎那我也非常感謝文化部其實有來規劃了四座生活美學館但是我有發現喔這些長社展"},{"start":13670.213,"end":13670.613,"text":"閱讀委員會主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":13694.138,"end":13718.814,"text":"議員會議員議員"},{"start":13718.954,"end":13720.434,"text":" bicyclist 提供提供提供提供"},{"start":13744.36,"end":13761.067,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":13762.228,"end":13789.503,"text":"來討論說是可以有一個動畫的那個節目的部分有但是在長片的部分還是沒有所以我想要了解就是我們在影視局其實有跟這些團體開一個會他其實是說因為這個現在我們的長片輔導金委員其實是來自於各個電影產業的各個領域那我想要了解這裡面的委員到底有哪些是來自動畫的領域呢?"},{"start":13791.768,"end":13814.408,"text":"關於委員關心這個題目我跟您講說我們有最新的狀況就是我們乾脆把動畫、電影、長片拉出來自己成立一個那個輔導金所以現在確認會有嗎?因為知道上次開會的結論是沒有的算是有各種疑慮主要是我們的廠量不夠因為在台灣做動畫的公司跟人才"},{"start":13815.329,"end":13841.864,"text":"剛剛您講的完全對就是它要靠加工才能生存所以當時是疑慮這個後來我想其實我自己做過動畫我做過動畫我蠻希望台灣的動畫跟漫畫跟其他的那個文學作品跟電影它可以成為一個IP所以我們已經決定要把動畫電影長片獨立製作成為一個這一項脫離所有的其他長片這一點是我們最近這一兩三天最新的決定"},{"start":13843.064,"end":13863.012,"text":"謝謝部長的支持,因為我想動畫其實在日本我相信都知道有非常多不同的題材可以透過動畫來處理,那現在剛剛好台灣都有這些人才,那也希望就是說,因為其實在會議第三點裡面也有提到說要如何協助他們把整個產業鏈做起來,那相關詳細的計畫是不是也可以再多久的時候送到我們辦公室呢?"},{"start":13865.305,"end":13867.267,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":13895.169,"end":13921.681,"text":"這個家族呢就把胡克敏這位大師的作品全部有一部分啦有一部分都已經捐贈到中國因為中國他們覺得中國的積極的協助他們要收藏他們的作品所以現在就有一部分都已經送到中國去了這樣子那我想了解我們在這一段上面在戰後的這一段一些重要的藝術家的作品還有支援我們上面我們可以再多做一點什麼事情呢"},{"start":13923.165,"end":13951.535,"text":"講到這一點是有點遺憾我們在歷史博物館其實我們裡面有非常多由中國來到台灣的一些藝術家非常有名的藝術家來到台灣之後他們也開始把他的作品本土化等等我覺得去中國化這個東西對我來講是個假議題所以我們特別對於這些作家會把作品捐給中國可能是他們個人的認同嘛因為我知道我們在電影界也有些"},{"start":13952.295,"end":13969.582,"text":""},{"start":13969.742,"end":13996.073,"text":"這是部長剛剛說的啦其實他只是覺得說大家好像都不是很在乎他們所以我想在這一段我們如何跟藝術家的後代或是跟藝術家本人做更多的溝通都是非常重要因為大家來到了台灣嘛台灣現在就是族群融合我們收集各個中華文化的重要藝術作品都是非常重要就像我之前的質詢上面我們如何把這些讓台灣變成華語世界的文化中心所以我希望是不是"},{"start":13996.753,"end":14002.9,"text":"adequate to the current state of affairs."},{"start":14019.617,"end":14021.218,"text":"閱讀委員會主管文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":14049.497,"end":14055.723,"text":"李卓人議員,請回答。接下來,我們有請黃國昌委員質詢時間4分鐘。李卓人議員"},{"start":14074.945,"end":14096.188,"text":"黃委員您好部長其實我是支持台灣的新聞應該要國際化對於台灣的閱聽大眾來講多接觸一些國際的新聞開闊視野跟世界連結都有幫助但我必須要老實講你們做那個台灣Plus花到現在社會上面"},{"start":14097.788,"end":14121.286,"text":"反彈的聲音很高啦,我真的,我可以很直接的跟部長做這樣子的表白。當初可能你們所高舉的一些想法跟實際上面的落實啊,中間的落差讓大家開始去質疑啊,說每一年花這些錢做這個事情到底是在幹嘛。部長,台灣Plus到現在的成效你滿意嗎?"},{"start":14131.403,"end":14149.149,"text":"需要多久?需要多久?看他們自己本身努不努力吧?你要回答嗎?我想請執行長給你直接回答不是啦,因為齁,那個請部長齁,要能夠理解就是立法委員我們的立場"},{"start":14150.881,"end":14179.611,"text":"因為當選民跟我們做這樣子的反應的時候我們恐怕沒有辦法雲淡風輕的跟你講一下請他們再努力嘛大家要看到的是實際的成果那特別是啊不管是從審計部的總學算報告或者是說從立法院預算中心的報告對台灣Plus實際上面的效果質疑啊非常非常的大甚至啊"},{"start":14180.874,"end":14197.042,"text":"出現了這樣子的狀況我老實說我是會看國際新聞的你們公視出的那個檢討報告我也都看過但問題是在台灣目前的脈絡下面"},{"start":14199.997,"end":14219.892,"text":"我們在報新聞的時候報到好像我們的政府我們的公廣集團是有在選編的選特定的價值因為這位記者我也不想誤會他所以從頭到尾我全部都聽完了我也不是看翻譯的我就看他英文怎麼表達部長你也說這個情況很嚴重嗎"},{"start":14223.783,"end":14247.512,"text":"我想是跟我們當年要成立這個台灣plus我們找了很多外國記者因為本身這個本國的記者英文程度不夠不夠這麼好我們就從外國找記者外國記者本身他的政治傾向或者他的言論的確是我覺得跟台灣還有一點差異你覺得這樣的事情還會不會再發生希望盡量減少"},{"start":14249.827,"end":14268.306,"text":"您覺得目前台灣Plus他們所出的檢討報告您滿不滿意?我覺得我不會太滿意,因為我覺得還是找了一些藉口。還是找了一些藉口嗎?對。那您不滿意也認為他們在找藉口,接下來該怎麼辦?繼續督促他們繼續努力。"},{"start":14274.212,"end":14293.944,"text":"因為這個公管集團本身的設定一直不在他是一個獨立的一個運作的包括節目內容新聞內容文化不是不能干預的像這一次我稍微有一點覺得嚴重馬上就會有人說我干涉新聞自由文化部長干涉新聞自由其實我完全沒有來我們請那個胡董事長請胡董委員好那個部長剛剛講的話我完全聽得懂"},{"start":14303.7,"end":14330.215,"text":"那袁輝兄也是之前我非常敬重的傳播學者您覺得部長表達這樣子的立場有在干預你們的新聞自由嗎?首先要說明就是我們當時決定暫行下架這件事情是我們內部編輯室討論結果所以與部長後來的發言這是兩件事情是兩件事情嗎?那董事長從您作為傳播學者的高度您覺得這個報導有沒有問題?"},{"start":14332.578,"end":14354.625,"text":"我們認為那個用字所謂A convicted felonFelon這個字翻譯成中文您很了解就所謂的重罪其實在美國這不是那麼重不過這個用語簡單來講就是我們覺得是可以用但你要在敘述脈絡裡面做妥善你說得很好啊問題就出在敘述脈絡嘛是這個有問題他在報結果的時候啊"},{"start":14360.264,"end":14385.107,"text":"說我們的盟邦啊重要的盟友啊美國人到底會選出一位女總統還是會選出一位重刑犯結果美國人選擇的是一個重刑犯這樣子的敘述我老實說啦大家看完了以後我覺得真的非常不妥真的非常不妥我本來還以為說這個是在美國有特定黨派立場的媒體所做的報導"},{"start":14386.974,"end":14411.875,"text":"我語重心長的就是說跟董事長說一句話我們這個會期要審預算台灣Plus當初成立的時候大家有很高的期待搞到今天連部長剛剛的發言您都聽到了如果沒有再更努力的說服國人的話這個預算接下來審議的時候要立委支持"},{"start":14412.967,"end":14436.323,"text":"大家都會很困難我想我話說到這邊董事長應該可以理解嘛好下一個啊國內的公廣集團我真的是匪夷所思欸我們的華視啊報新聞報到會違反選罷法看到這個新聞想說這個是新聞還是在幫民進黨吹票啊當初這個新聞出來的時候一堆人質疑啊"},{"start":14442.063,"end":14468.529,"text":"結果搞到後來被中選會裁罰了中選會裁罰華氏20萬,代表人20萬代表人20萬的錢是自己出的嗎?如果處分確認當然是我們應該要自己出的應該要自己出,現實上要自己出嗎?所有處分都是華氏自己付款對啊華氏自己負擔沒意義啊"},{"start":14469.577,"end":14490.181,"text":"是納稅人在負擔啊?您同意嗎?呃,華市當然他股份有83%是公司基金會,不過他營運是完全自己自主。董事長,我真的蠻敬重您的。但我覺得在國會不要講外行話啦。你罰華市20萬,絕大多數就是納稅人出嗎?出現這樣子的狀況,華市內部有檢討嗎?"},{"start":14497.008,"end":14514.651,"text":"有,而且有在總經理他對這個事情有做過一個討論跟檢討。那檢討完了以後呢?有誰被追究責任?我可以再去了解一下。請了解一下一個禮拜之內書面回答我,誰負了責任?"},{"start":14516.089,"end":14543.36,"text":"因為我看到有很多傳播學者當初大家都很支持公廣集團看到這個新聞的時候覺得不可置信覺得不可置信我們公廣集團的人去搞這種事情違反選罷法讓大家質疑我們的公廣集團做出來的新聞是當初接觸的理想為國家、為社會、為人民還是幫特定的黨派"},{"start":14544.71,"end":14545.09,"text":"接下來我們有請羅志強委員質詢。"},{"start":14584.926,"end":14589.451,"text":"主席有請部長跟胡董事長好,李部長、胡董事長"},{"start":14594.98,"end":14619.557,"text":"部長好,這個我們講公視,做一個國家媒體,它應該有三大原則要恪守嘛,中立、專業跟績效嘛,對不對?對。好,我們先來看中立。這個台灣Plus製作打攤專題,它以民眾黨主席柯文哲上手銬的照片為主圖。"},{"start":14620.8,"end":14649.332,"text":"大家發現內容也多數在報導柯文哲涉及金華城土地改建弊案。但是實際上同步在進行還有很多執政黨的一些要員所涉及的弊案,卻沒有等比例的報導。部長你覺得這樣的方式有符合所謂的中立原則嗎?因為它整個新聞的內容跟照片我們沒有辦法確定,所以是不是請董事長回答你。請董事長。"},{"start":14651.242,"end":14672.238,"text":"據我的了解,我們事實上在那個專題裡面有各個政黨候選人、政黨的人物涉及到這類事情的報導。不過我們認為那個圖片處理得不下當,所以圖片已經把它刪掉。我告訴你齁,你被看見才刪掉啦。我要跟你說啊,他們不要變成柯P打到死啦。"},{"start":14673.806,"end":14702.285,"text":"指振黨現在對不對你會看到整個指振黨氛圍都在打柯文哲公視在新聞分配的比例上跟所謂圖片的那個設計的選材上您也是媒體的您知道基本上不過您放心啦我們不會做這種事情我想要放心我想要放心啦但你們現在做的至少現在看到的這一件事情就讓人家不放心嘛那第二個齁我再請教部長齁"},{"start":14705.135,"end":14714.207,"text":"專業原則公視台灣PLUS頻道使用被定罪的重刑犯稱呼川普"},{"start":14716.943,"end":14737.032,"text":"那公視我剛剛看董事長也有說明說這個是全球公共媒體皆普通使用的詞彙那後來因為朝野一致譴責公視才提出檢討承認有管理疏失也對相關人作出記過的處分那部長你對於公視目前處置滿意嗎?"},{"start":14739.177,"end":14764.735,"text":"我尊重,因為他們尊重他整個的經過自立委員會的結果,包括董事會,因為我一再強調文化部跟公管機構的關係是我們編預算給他之後,我不能干預他任何東西。我剛才一再講說我個人覺得不滿意的話都不能講出來一點點,馬上變得非常嚴重說哇新聞不自由,文化部長干預新聞,所以我蠻為難的。"},{"start":14767.276,"end":14769.837,"text":"我可以體諒你的為難但納稅人更為難我剛剛已經講在這件事上展現不中立在所謂的報導這個美國總統大選又展現不專業然後更重要他不是不專業的問題公視是國家媒體他今天代表國家他今天對一個現在已經當選美國總統的川普用這麼復興的詞彙"},{"start":14799.5,"end":14821.751,"text":"閱讀的脈絡也對他非常不友善。這種情況之下,你還不只是不專業,你甚至是在扯我們辛苦的外交的後腿。這個才是今天大家覺得對台灣Plus第二個感到不滿意的地方。第三個,你覺得你對台灣Plus到目前為止花了幾十億公帑他會績效你滿意嗎?"},{"start":14827.008,"end":14829.73,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":14849.676,"end":14877.079,"text":"我想作為公共媒體對自己的成果都不會滿意的,我們都會隨時求進。那已經不是你的個人的自律的那個要求問題。不過我還是要解釋一下,您剛才那個程序,因為我們是第一時間行政裁量。好啦我跟你講,剛剛前面我都聽過了。沒有沒有,我們也談這個,但是它必須經過一個process,這是公共媒體必須要經過的標準。它不能夠自己來決定說它絕對是對或錯,不過我們基於行政裁量已經認為,"},{"start":14878.08,"end":14880.001,"text":"當然胡董事長你講的是原因面"},{"start":14900.404,"end":14922.859,"text":"但今天對於國人在看TIME PLUS我們看是結果面你也告訴我說相關的在脈絡上的處理你覺得有問題嗎你到現在都認為這個詞彙沒問題但我認為這個詞彙有問題啦因為公視TIME PLUS不是一般的媒體一般媒體我覺得用這個詞彙我覺得沒有問題但是很抱歉啊我在總統府待過我知道外交多困難"},{"start":14924.264,"end":14950.704,"text":"你覺得今天你是川普你看到這句話你會高興嗎?你看到這則報導你會高興嗎?董事長實際上我們這個標題同樣的標題是上BBC還有澳洲的ABC還有加拿大的CBC我要告訴您吼對 那我們當然有問題我剛才已經講了我們台灣的外交處境很困難的啊這個我們理解很困難的啊所以最後吼我還是必須說一句話啦中立原則"},{"start":14954.158,"end":14971.89,"text":"被question了專業不夠還對外交產生妨害績效也被大家詬病真的拜託公視再努力一點不然說真的預算到手上來還真不知怎麼支持欸你變成是逼得大家好像也非砍不可啊"},{"start":14972.25,"end":14997.412,"text":"當然任何有疏失我們都應該檢討改進這是沒有惡化不過還是要跟您報告我們在所有的調查包括牛津大學對我們所做的台灣媒體的調查我們的信任度是第一名或者是第二名我們在所有的金鐘獎的獎項上面我們也是今年超歷年之多我想很多事情可能要看全面還是跟委員前委員多多支持公共媒體"},{"start":14997.992,"end":14998.593,"text":"接下來我們有請羅廷偉委員質詢時間8加2。"},{"start":15033.412,"end":15041.552,"text":"謝謝召委,有請部長還有董事長。好,李部長跟胡董事長。董事長。有請胡董事長。"},{"start":15044.534,"end":15069.469,"text":"國委員好部長好部長剛剛有葛委員有跟你提到關於藝術創作者工作者自營者他們對於這部分的一個福利跟權益那我也想為他們一起來發聲其實台中在文化地域尤其在我的中西區東南區有很多這樣子的一個產業以及很多這樣子的一個場所包括其實我們台中有秦美大頓文化藝術中心省基新村文創園區還有第四市場"},{"start":15072.151,"end":15090.047,"text":"好那我想這些都有很多的一些藝術創作者他們會去做這些藝術工作那其實剛剛其實大家都討論到不管是高工時高壓力單負的健康風險以及健康問題對創作力的一個影響對文化部主管機關對文化的一個照顧"},{"start":15090.808,"end":15103.895,"text":" proporting the Ministry of Culture to promote regular health checks and subsidies, and provide psychological support to assist."},{"start":15105.872,"end":15134.515,"text":"不好意思大聲一點可以嗎?是啊那因為這部分如果認定之後到底有哪些人能夠受惠我們也希望能夠更加的去有一個配套措施具體的去把它公平公正並且廣泛的來讓大家能夠來申請這個部分我想包括有很多認定上的一個問題我們都會很擔憂那當然推出這樣的一個補助能夠來協助他們利益良善但到底能夠讓多少人"},{"start":15134.855,"end":15135.476,"text":"adequacy and transparency."},{"start":15135.476,"end":15150.01,"text":"以及是不是多數人都可以使用到公平性這個部分還麻煩你要稍微注意一下可以嗎可以啊好謝謝那另外呢我想請問一下部長這個台灣plus大家今天都非常的關注那成立的初衷啊"},{"start":15150.29,"end":15172.49,"text":"就是要了解台灣的一個文化跟價值我相信這個目標我們都非常的支持沒有人會去反對所以呢才會編列預算這麼多年在做執行喔那四年58億分年進行這樣子的一個預算呢那我想你們自己所訂定喔有這樣子的一個APP下載居然才百萬下載目標只有十萬餘量喔"},{"start":15173.11,"end":15189.373,"text":"則是10萬左右而已齁那這個部分剛剛很多的委員都在問齁你們滿不滿意啦我想這個不需要問一定是不滿意而且是十分之一而已齁那我覺得這個根本不需要打分數這就是完全的不及格連自己所訂定的目標的一半"},{"start":15192.196,"end":15216.835,"text":" 審計部也在 112年度決算和審核的一個報告當中也有提到影音的內容跟計畫目標未符合且觀看來源集中在亞洲跟美洲顯示其國際化的效果有限部長我們都知道公共電視法第11條要求節目製播需要保持多元客觀以及公平性並兼顧我們的一個相關族群的均衡"},{"start":15217.856,"end":15241.685,"text":"台灣Plus的官網上面喔在關於我裡面也寫得很清楚提供獨立且公正的每日新聞報導對吧這個您知道吧知道好然而我們都很懷疑啊台灣Plus的一個新聞比例是否能夠如實的轉達多元客觀以及公平喔我想請問你一個英文單詞啊不知道您知道嗎Crawford"},{"start":15244.887,"end":15260.801,"text":"這個單詞意思是腐敗我們用這個單詞關鍵字去做一個搜尋台灣Plus的新聞裡面腐敗所顯示的新聞大家可以來看一下這個我所提供的一個圖片前16則裡面有7則是民眾黨"},{"start":15265.625,"end":15294.406,"text":"腐敗搜尋完是16則有7則是民眾黨有2則是謝國良惡意罷免案有2則是無黨籍議員的貪腐案我是很懷疑阿那綠營呢綠營呢綠營就不腐敗但無論是台研的陳啟毅以及雲報能源都沒有看到這些新聞阿我一直往後滑相關的新聞看到了更多的柯文哲"},{"start":15295.782,"end":15297.005,"text":"我沒有說不准你報導誰呀!"},{"start":15298.988,"end":15325.103,"text":"我是希望能不能多元客觀公正連這最基本的看起來都做不太到所以事實擺在眼前有圖有真相然後一直拉到很下面才勉強有幾則關於超思雞蛋案的一個報導是拉到很下面然後一則正文燦的新聞那台灣plus你們可以說是柯文哲的粉絲了吧"},{"start":15326.064,"end":15338.629,"text":"我覺得這個部分是不是有待改進?委員這個有一點點有一點點落差就是他是八九月份其實我們非常公平我可不可以請胡董跟你回答請說"},{"start":15341.931,"end":15356.702,"text":"因為具體的新聞操作我們那個執行長會比較了解因為統計的關係可能不是這樣我請他說明一下我們是用關鍵字查詢的啦當然你要跟我講陳啟玉是最近才開始剪掉搜索"},{"start":15357.182,"end":15385.322,"text":"但是我要跟你講7月的時候謝榮介就已經在預告會有綠營大咖光電綠能弊案以及8、9月的時候光電綠能相關的一些報導收片各個我們新聞網所提供的這些關鍵字都還是有啦我只是舉例陳起玉而已所以你不要告訴我陳起玉是10月以後有事情好 執行長跟你說好 跟委員報告"},{"start":15386.303,"end":15408.529,"text":"在各個月份他都有相關的報導不會偏頗某個政黨那可能是我們在TAG的設計上就是那個TAG的設計上我們可以再做調整也就不會去批評某一個政黨但因為八九月份確實是在這兩個事件他比例是多但是包括像鄭文燦前這個副院長他的新聞在七月以前我們都有做報導這是公平的"},{"start":15408.729,"end":15434.957,"text":""},{"start":15435.377,"end":15452.804,"text":"貪腐以及相關的關鍵字難道真的只有這幾個選項嗎?我打一個很大的問號我也希望這個部分能夠加強我還是再一次強調我們沒有你只可以報導誰而是告訴你全部都應該公開公正"},{"start":15453.404,"end":15478.933,"text":""},{"start":15478.993,"end":15479.554,"text":"閱讀委員會提出檢討報告"},{"start":15494.557,"end":15511.4,"text":"我想在這樣子的一個預算我覺得難辭其咎全民都在看四年58億浪費公帑然後去報導不多元偏袒不公正這部分我們沒有辦法接受那之前呢剛剛大家也很關心喔"},{"start":15512.386,"end":15537.241,"text":"美國大選一結束啊台灣plus把川普總統用重刑犯來做一個描述我想前面都講很多了齁你們說語意上的解釋啊或怎麼樣我直接來講一個大家聽聽看第一個美國大選已經結束了已經結束了你還要做這樣子的報導我覺得對比性上這個真的是非常的不妥齁不管你用什麼語意再來我們用這個原話來我們來看一下這個原話"},{"start":15539.662,"end":15559.6,"text":"他說美國大選系列報導中一名女記者在鏡頭表示這次的選舉將會成為一個歷史的時刻美國人到底會選出一個女性總統還是一個被定罪的重刑犯看來美國選擇了重刑犯我先不跟你探討重刑犯三個字因為你們說這是語意的問題然後你們也牽扯說多國的媒體也都有這樣子報導但是"},{"start":15565.525,"end":15593.275,"text":"我認為在其他國家描述川普是重刑犯他那個是川普的獨立報導沒有對比台灣Plus的這個問題是他用對比句型一個是女性總統那為什麼你不能對比男性總統那為什麼你要用另外一個形容詞我覺得男詞棋就硬凹啦就女生對男生這樣就好了嘛那為什麼要女生對XXX"},{"start":15595.694,"end":15609.973,"text":"我覺得這樣子難辭其咎所以我覺得這就是不妥當的一個敘述那當然大家也說川普是一個有仇必報的一個人那我們自己想想看我們自己的總統被外國給這樣子形容"},{"start":15611.243,"end":15628.168,"text":"我們會不會覺得很難堪所以現在我們還在討論到底我們要不要去他的就職典禮的時候我在想他會不會忌恨川普我們希望他是一個有大度量的人我們甚至希望台灣PLUS在這時這刻點閱率是1啊"},{"start":15629.192,"end":15647.622,"text":"好險我們的下載量只有10萬如果是百萬餘量我跟你講這國際大笑話川普可能都還看到這則新聞此時此刻我多麼希望台灣plus沒人點閱所以前面跟後面真的是我自相矛盾花了這麼多的錢結果你報導出這樣子所以我還是要再次提醒"},{"start":15648.522,"end":15668.523,"text":"我們都很希望台灣Plus能夠走出國際但是我們沒有看到這樣子的一個實際運用的話我們很難給你預算所以在後面審預算的時候我們一定會強力的監督甚至不惜如果沒有看到真正的實際的檢討我跟你講這預算我很難讓你們放行我想"},{"start":15669.224,"end":15688.48,"text":"後續啊,因為今天時間到了齁,那個召委雖然沒站起來,但是眼睛一直看著我,給我壓力很大齁。那我沒辦法再跟你講第三議題。那我想這個車庫娛樂的一個爭議齁,那後續呢,我們也會再做一個相關的探討。也希望部長,車庫娛樂的部分,我也希望這個部分你能夠重視,希望你先了解一下車庫娛樂的一個爭議。謝謝。"},{"start":15691.962,"end":15704.046,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員,部長跟董事長請回。我們後面還有一些委員要質詢,但是因為現在時間接近一點,我就跟後面的委員抱歉,我們這個時間就是準時不再延長。質詢的時間4分鐘就不再延長。我們接下來有請翁曉琳委員質詢。"},{"start":15717.489,"end":15721.212,"text":"有請部長還有胡董事長。好,呂部長跟胡董事長。是,部長還有董事長好。因為我知道其實公共電視法在去年有修法,所以已經解除了政府捐贈給公共電視的經費的天花板。那現在公共電視是每年可以得到文化部有多少的預算補助?"},{"start":15746.67,"end":15748.371,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":15761.855,"end":15765.679,"text":"總額8.5億元公共電視長期以來基本上在整個的經營方向上我認為其實是有問題的我始終認為公共電視應該是要作為補足商業電視不足"},{"start":15779.454,"end":15779.814,"text":"同意啊。"},{"start":15809.029,"end":15833.503,"text":"我希望說之後應該要調整過來就是兒少節目的話應該要多做點預算但是本席有發現一個問題就是你們在針對兒少節目的時候其實在去年有一個節目叫做Hello你給問嗎?不知道部長因為我剛有聽說部長是從來不看公共電視的是吧?我沒有說我從來不看公共電視但是幾乎不看公共電視所以胡董事長您知道有這個節目嗎?知道那這個節目呢現在呢停掉了嗎?"},{"start":15838.645,"end":15864.393,"text":"我們已經第一季做完以後就結束了。為什麼第一季做完就結束了?收視率不好?還是因為選舉結束了?那個時候就是想要有點反差,有小朋友來訪問政治人物。好,我要講的是,針對這個節目其實本席非常有意見的。這個節目是在什麼時候開始做的?去年10月,對不對?去年10月那時候是不是已經非常接近選舉了?"},{"start":15866.438,"end":15866.518,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":15889.764,"end":15902.972,"text":"我要講其實這是一個嚴重的問題啊。你們試圖用這個節目哈洛你給問用白話文帶領一群國小到高中的學生來試讀政治可是在這個節目裡面其實你們已經有隱含著我未來這個要捧哪一個候選人我覺得這個其實就是一個很嚴重會影響到競選不公平的問題而這些事情現在由公共電視帶頭做起"},{"start":15916.448,"end":15933.366,"text":"翁委員您很了解那個法律的規定是講競選活動期間所以我們是在競選活動期間之前這是第一個要說明第二個是我們當時我們就如果同仁要做這個節目我說一定要考慮到候選政黨的平衡所以他們的確是好所以我就說我請對"},{"start":15934.087,"end":15954.531,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":15954.531,"end":15976.937,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":15977.591,"end":15977.611,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":16000.422,"end":16000.582,"text":"閱讀委員吳思揚委員"},{"start":16030.424,"end":16031.565,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":16054.069,"end":16054.429,"text":"午思遙有上過。"},{"start":16066.806,"end":16090.345,"text":"我同樣的選區同樣的主要的國民黨的競爭對手他也有上過我用這個例子來說明盡可能做到平衡我基本上認為我們透過優質的節目的製播讓更多的公民社會來關切民主社會所進行的選舉我覺得這是不應當把它污名化或罪惡化"},{"start":16091.506,"end":16103.094,"text":"當然要做到政黨的平衡我支持但就我的選區的個案我可以來做一個親身的例證吳思瑤參加受邀了我的主要競爭對手國民黨籍的候選人也有參與好今天我來講就預算論預算如果未來的才化法修正通過文化預算是重災區我們要來啟動防範跟因應下一頁"},{"start":16118.022,"end":16138.951,"text":"Judge 6,612億的財化法如果最終是這個版本的話中央政府可以使用的預算可用財源只剩下4,159億。然後文化預算長期以來是弱勢1%的天花板一直難以來超越在我們執政之後蔡英文總統曾經在108年我們突破了1%"},{"start":16140.211,"end":16168.347,"text":" proporto112113因為有前瞻建設所以才突破一趴但是如果我們現在審明年預算回到沒有一趴只剩下0.92趴因為沒有前瞻了我們新年度的預算只有290億下一頁但如果才化法被修惡了被惡修了文化預算就腰斬雪上加霜了我必須整理出這個數字讓所有文化部門的同仁要"},{"start":16169.735,"end":16186.834,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":16189.414,"end":16212.982,"text":"我希望大家要有危機要搶救我們的文化預算下一頁我也去精算了文化部的新興計畫有四項這當中還包括補助地方場館、博物館、地方文化館非常多高達5.85億也包括補助台南的案內影視基地2.02億這些很多新興計畫是受惠於地方的而延續性計畫的十項裡頭"},{"start":16215.624,"end":16229.516,"text":"厲時五期的文資修復是各個縣市都有也包括我們要加強對桃園市立美術館的興建的補助還有黑潮計畫、台流29億等等。如果新興計畫、延續性計畫加起來14項可能受影響132.5億的文化預算被搬走了而這些業務不是地方政府能夠執行的耶。"},{"start":16242.358,"end":16261.723,"text":"所以大家要有這樣的危機意識,下一頁我就講兩件。我請你們來未雨綢繆,如果財化法通過了,被修正了,我們的文化禮金啊,19.5億可能就受影響了。今年我們還同步推動13到15歲的事辦嘛,對不對?"},{"start":16264.364,"end":16286.877,"text":"况且209萬名年輕學生從13至22歲不再享有國家的文化福利,透過文化禮金讓大家進行文化的禁用、文化的消費。又如同歷史舞棋的文資保存,如果前瞻沒有了"},{"start":16287.637,"end":16311.766,"text":""},{"start":16311.926,"end":16335.844,"text":"教科文是憲法唯一一個有強制保障比例15%的憲法保障。如果財化法受了影響,中央的財源各部會都會受到波及,而憲法保障文化預算15%教科文,我們就要優先利用這個憲法的武器保護我們的文化預算。部長你認同嗎?"},{"start":16338.548,"end":16350.714,"text":"我今天無非是要拋出才化法大家不要覺得跟你無關跟文化大有關係中央執行的從地方管社到文化資產從表演藝術視覺藝術到影視影產業都需要中央來帶頭"},{"start":16355.856,"end":16359.778,"text":"我希望我們大家欲做準備未雨綢繆也要一起來發聲搶救文化預算才化法的修正勢必要三思而後行。我們一起加油後續再討論謝謝謝主席謝副主席"},{"start":16372.002,"end":16374.003,"text":"謝謝福斯雅委員,歡迎常常回來教文質詢。"},{"start":16398.766,"end":16418.491,"text":"好,來,接下來我們有請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在、賴慧媛委員、賴慧媛委員、賴慧媛委員不在、蔡易宇委員、蔡易宇委員、蔡易宇委員不在、蘇慶權委員、蘇慶權委員不在、鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員不在、鄭振前委員、鄭振前委員、鄭振前委員不在、林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員不在、吳麗華委員、吳麗華委員、吳麗華委員不在。好,今天登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢,"},{"start":16431.745,"end":16435.767,"text":"閱讀完畢,委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或者未及答覆的部分,請相關機關盡速以書面來答覆。"},{"start":16456.167,"end":16483.703,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案。文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案。行政法人、國家表演藝術中心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案。相關提案請於11月28號下午2點前提出,令定期繼續審查。"},{"start":16484.944,"end":16487.206,"text":"報告委員會今天議程處理完畢,現在散會。謝謝各位。"},{"start":16515.205,"end":16520.106,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"}]}},{"id":"157367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637521566d3cd1d7a9b6c868a4ad55ac2447b1d494314c3fac5e687ea78fc2deb64d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"13:11:01 - 13:17:31","影片長度":"00:06:30","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T13:11:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T13:17:31+08:00","duration":390,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.71409375,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.72971875,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.35784375,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.445968750000002,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.656593750000003,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.705968750000004,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.58971875,"end":71.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.44596875,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.20909375000001,"end":75.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.25971875,"end":79.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.57971875,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.78096875,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.23221875,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.40471875,"end":94.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.64471875000001,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.74971875,"end":101.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.87159375,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.83346875000001,"end":103.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.69409375000001,"end":107.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.23346875,"end":109.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.95471875000001,"end":112.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.65034375,"end":119.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.40034375,"end":136.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.66346875000002,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.42534375,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.76596875,"end":158.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.31846875000002,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.40221875,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.25784375,"end":175.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.56471875,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.56096875,"end":201.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.60284375,"end":202.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.27346875,"end":207.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.94784375,"end":209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.29346875000002,"end":214.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.66409375,"end":231.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.40409375000002,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.31534375,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.03534375,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.77346875,"end":244.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.96721875000003,"end":255.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.77159375000002,"end":257.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.69534375,"end":258.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.37034375,"end":259.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.58971875000003,"end":258.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.93971875,"end":259.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.95659375,"end":270.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.02409375,"end":277.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.24534375,"end":276.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.94534375,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.86909375,"end":280.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.67909375,"end":307.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.75159375000004,"end":304.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.03409375,"end":304.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.87784375,"end":306.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.80159375,"end":307.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.54409375,"end":309.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.90659375,"end":310.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.15534375000004,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.69096875,"end":313.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.58534375,"end":316.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.15346875,"end":323.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.03096875,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.76909375,"end":326.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.72971875,"end":335.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.96971875,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.98659375,"en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謝謝大家辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":389.456,"end":389.918,"text":"謝謝李柏毅委員"}]}},{"id":"157366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637528bbb9c40fe0bdb45868a4ad55ac2447b1d494314c3fac5e6fbc405ee1c6225db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:55:31 - 13:10:54","影片長度":"00:15:23","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T12:55:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T13:10:54+08:00","duration":923,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.342218750000001,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.31221875,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.759093750000002,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.05409375,"end":18.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.10471875,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.78784375,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.82159375,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.31909375,"end":30.675968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.11471875,"end":36.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.767843750000004,"end":38.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.94471875,"end":41.712218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.16784375,"end":50.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.92596875,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.76534375,"end":53.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.97596875,"end":60.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.759718750000005,"end":67.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.282843750000005,"end":63.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.16034375,"end":63.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.27846875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.96596875,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.75471875000001,"end":67.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.86846875,"end":85.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.29596875,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.62034375,"end":90.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.12221875,"end":94.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.23971875000001,"end":112.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.05971875,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.88221875,"end":115.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.97909375,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.74471875,"end":135.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.14471875,"end":141.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.81471875,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.80596875,"end":147.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.73784375,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.38721875000002,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.33096875,"end":162.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.33034375,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.42971875,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.69471875000002,"end":191.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.71409375000002,"end":198.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.24034375000002,"end":206.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.46284375000002,"end":218.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.96284375000002,"end":224.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.02534375000002,"end":228.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.17659375000002,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.31534375,"end":239.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.31846875000002,"end":245.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.57909375000003,"end":260.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.58096875,"end":273.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.99659375000005,"end":282.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.58596875,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.32596875,"end":315.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.66096875,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.65971875,"end":324.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.52034375,"end":325.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.00534375,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.05596875000003,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.31284375,"end":330.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.78096875,"end":331.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.13471875000005,"end":342.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.53971875,"end":336.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.76221875000005,"end":348.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.65596875,"end":347.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.01034375,"end":348.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.51659375,"end":348.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.58409375,"end":348.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.82034375,"end":348.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.88784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INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":61.8,"end":66.983,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。二、сколько審查委員王美惠等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、сколько審查委員王美惠等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":91.234,"end":115.287,"text":"連剛剛部長都講出不要汙名化國土計畫法所以表示過去八年我們要實施的這個落實他到明年要上路了剩下剛剛部長還回答說還有七個多月沒有剩五個多月了到明年四月底之前剩五個多月沒有七個多月那七個多月可能是我們跟前兩個月算起來七個多月所以"},{"start":116.027,"end":117.148,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":136.209,"end":162.244,"text":"但是這些說明會的成果跟結果還有效益 這才是重要的在開完說明會之後 什麼是國土計畫法?國土分區功能是什麼?各分區功能依據什麼法令來執行?施行會會產生什麼影響?其實在說明會當中 代表出席的都答不出來"},{"start":163.393,"end":179.808,"text":"然後民眾參加完說明會之後完全沒有理解整個國土計畫法本須必須說國土計畫法是一部非常重要也非常好的對我們整個我們國家國土發展最重要的一個法例"},{"start":180.751,"end":204.964,"text":"但是我們就是因為整個的施行的過程一些要準備的不完備所以造成我們民眾的很多的疑慮那在這裡本席也要來請教就是說我們的功能分區圖正式實施包括我們中央所拿到的很多跟現況不符"},{"start":206.565,"end":218.653,"text":"很多跟現況不符你就要據以實施這就產生很大的問題啊我來舉例土地受污染無法耕作我在這邊講啊有些那個土地受污染現在還在還在耕作稻米其實那個耕作的人他自己都不敢吃"},{"start":229.58,"end":237.363,"text":"都不知道賣去哪裡,這種情況還要編為農醫,這種情況還要編為農醫,這第一個。第二個本席在這邊也講過,農醫沒有水源,你還是要編為農醫,這第二個。第三個"},{"start":246.187,"end":259.868,"text":"現在依據我們這些都是地方很多的疑慮現在我們因為很多政府都為了縮短這個城鄉差距還有貧富差距所以致力在推動量力農村"},{"start":261.09,"end":281.664,"text":"已經稍有成果,結果民眾覺得我們中央走回頭路,制定國土計畫法,我現在講的是民眾的疑慮,一定要想辦法來做溝通還有去了解。民眾覺得國土計畫法限制了我們鄉村農地的合法的這種使用,使貧富差距更擴大。"},{"start":282.885,"end":285.266,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":298.272,"end":327.399,"text":"整個特農區可是因為有些地區的發展那邊有30米的道路那這個聯絡道路他一邊可能已經是都市區都會區另一邊還在特農區在道路周邊他可不可以藉由這一次整個國土分區的這個規劃他能不能有些特農區他能不能不要再歸為農醫這個部分可不可以先回答"},{"start":329.309,"end":331.07,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案件》案。"},{"start":355.723,"end":382.527,"text":"他還是化為農醫那這個情況?那個會被稽查跟管制啦所以這個是國土分區圖交上來以後你們再去稽查才去確認嗎?那個是環境部阿他在縣市政府裡面都有專責的單位都有專責的單位去把他做列管而且不能中我們要...現在好幾個縣市本席了解他繳交上來就還是他污染的"},{"start":382.927,"end":403.343,"text":"他沒有水源的都還是你所謂的以前的特農區現在的農醫都是列為糧田那你你現在國土計畫法要上路他根本規劃錯誤這個情況你要在哪一種機制這個就接著我們就講到你有沒有緩衝機制這個他會送到內政部來的地方政府送"},{"start":404.864,"end":405.465,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":426.024,"end":426.464,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":439.315,"end":440.916,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":460.926,"end":461.888,"text":"新竹縣新竹縣新竹縣"},{"start":476.288,"end":478.609,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":498.033,"end":526.101,"text":"今天就算12月底給你上來,我認為4月也是無法順利實行。所以這也是為什麼我們原來都是期待在今年6月,就是這個意思。這麼多問題我看今年6月就算全部送上來,你審議也是很草率。跟委員報告就是說,那這就是在國土計畫現在這個制度的好處。那中間都可以打倒,過去的區域計畫時代是完全沒有的。"},{"start":526.96,"end":555.455,"text":"也就是說你畫了就是畫了。那第三個就是說回到...對啊,像這個就要說明,那本席接著追問你剛剛講的這個,如果你...就剛剛講的30米旁的這樣的狀況,在過去的區域計畫時代是沒有辦法動的,但是在國土計畫的時代是可以透過檢討或相對一個規劃,它去進一步把它落實,真的有發展需要的話,可以進一步去落實。所以署長說到一個重點,"},{"start":556.095,"end":556.876,"text":"條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":572.671,"end":598.569,"text":"依據地方區域它的這種變化跟發展,他是不是也透過這次國土計畫法有一些微調的部分也是可以微調的,沒有錯吧?對,像這一塊,這一塊本席也必須講新竹縣國土分區圖是交上來,八月就交了。但實際上地方對這樣的情形,就是我們聽到的聲音,地方就是"},{"start":599.609,"end":612.855,"text":"對我剛剛所講的問題都沒有解決。所以我們中央在審議的時候還可以再去調整。所以我們也希望中央跟縣市政府也要溝通好。"},{"start":614.014,"end":638.437,"text":"這一次國土的分區圖不是就是交上來而是在做的過程我們就在落實整個國土計畫法也藉這個機會每個縣市他有需要調整的在這時候就應該做調整是這樣沒有錯今天得到答案那再來就是說如果我們等一下下午我們審查是延後的話"},{"start":639.238,"end":641.759,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":656.38,"end":678.529,"text":"再重新再拿回去再檢討,調整到更好。」包括剛剛你們也認同的這幾個問題,這很多區塊,而且這面積也不小。瞭解。我跟委員報告啦,我們分幾個層次啦。就是您剛剛所提到了,有一些譬如說是它的這個圖資層本身產生跟限定不符的,那其實我們是審議完成,它是審議完成,但我們還沒有核定。所以在這個過程當中是還可以"},{"start":686.059,"end":692.266,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":706.062,"end":708.483,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":724.199,"end":737.967,"text":"所以我覺得這在整個流程裡面其實都有完整的配套我們從第二階段其實都鼓勵縣市就可以去做這類的規劃那到第三階段的時候再來落實這樣那我很快再問兩個問題"},{"start":739.642,"end":767.238,"text":"也就是說我們國土署是否有在持續更新相關圖資因為這整個我們圖資的主管機關他有關圖資的公告的程序還有更新的頻率這中間包含他坐標系統精度的要求好像都沒有統一規範這個部分我們國土計畫法本席看因為朝野的立委我看都來跟我私下反映要言"},{"start":767.978,"end":769.918,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":793.303,"end":820.769,"text":"部會所採用的圖資尤其是它的精度的標準那如果要全面因為有的涉及到全國性的那一個如果要統一標準的話可能圖資的這個成本很高但是我們都希望他持續的做更新也就是說有些你落到限地的確民眾反應不行這的確限地差異太大他們都是用分批分批不斷的在更新那來做一些局部的調整第二個我們在所謂的更正編訂這個作業"},{"start":822.149,"end":844.603,"text":"因為圖資所產生錯誤的原有在非督裏面做了更正編定這個制度還是都維持所以我們對民眾的這個圖資因為圖資造成誤解的這個資訊的這個部分我們都是持續用開放性的所以署長也知道你看每一個委員提的問題你們都知道但是他沒有被解決好最後整個區域計畫轉軌制國土計畫的制度你們的緩衝機制一定要有"},{"start":851.207,"end":874.821,"text":"所以剛剛跟委員報告過其實我們都已經按照不同情境給予不同的但是這個緩衝機制好像沒有辦法化解整個地方的反彈應該是這麼說如果還是有臨時提案可能連新辦事業計畫都沒有的都還沒有審查通過那個是最困難也是最近在地方政府會暴增的那這些即使延期我跟委員報告這些案子還是會出現"},{"start":877.91,"end":894.789,"text":"但是我覺得那個轉軌的緩衝機制你們把它明確一點明確之外我覺得這整個過程宣導也就是說包括我不知道這之前對我們因為都是地方政府去做說明會然後中央是不是也有派人下去"},{"start":895.59,"end":901.613,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"}]}},{"id":"16298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16298","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc24e6619f7e9d11f8ad9f551ce5fa921fb104c5adbfed68f733e892494afed5b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-21T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T13:31:00+08:00","duration":18045,"影片長度":"05:00:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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本次會有委員黃國昌等8人提出質詢委員翁曉琳等4人提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二本案令定期繼續審查"},{"start":1873.008,"end":1890.105,"text":"三、委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關警訴、送交個別委員及本會四、審查會委員針對本日議程所列討論事項之預算提案請於11月25日星期一中午12時前送交本會,預時不予受理宣讀完畢好,那我們現在請問就議事錄的部分有錯誤會議囉"},{"start":1898.963,"end":1927.024,"text":"沒有的話依數確定接著我們介紹道場委員黃國昌委員、羅志強委員、謝榮介委員接著我們介紹道場官員法務部部長、政部長、內政部政次監、行政院打詐指揮中心指揮官馬次長、警政署署長張榮興"},{"start":1930.322,"end":1941.649,"text":"內政部移民署署長、中署長其餘會籍介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄"},{"start":1943.476,"end":1948.701,"text":"施行後相關執法及配套措施進度及具體成效之檢討專題報告並備諮詢現在進行報告範圍時間3分鐘請法務部長、政部長報告"},{"start":1970.511,"end":1989.288,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天奉邀列席貴委員會就如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐欺集團工具及打詐四法施行後相關執法及配套措施進度及具體成效檢討請代表本部列席報告並被質詢"},{"start":1991.772,"end":2013.058,"text":"那有關你那個外籍移工參與詐欺犯罪部分本部發現近來外籍移工參與詐欺犯罪比例攀升嚴防離境或情況不明外籍勞工所使用的金融帳戶或電信門號淪為詐欺工具那本部也督導了抬高監督邀請相關部會進行聯防策略"},{"start":2013.936,"end":2026.363,"text":"那這個有包括加強行政管制臺高監署聯合行政機關從源頭來防堵臺高監自112年7月24日起陸續邀請金融監督委員會"},{"start":2028.915,"end":2052.081,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會、內政部移民署召開9次會議。另外,加強刑事的查緝防犯外籍移工參與詐欺的犯罪。本會督導抬高檢署,要求各地檢署檢察官對查獲外籍移工擔任車所上游詐欺共犯時應積極溯源追查,有無幕後控制外籍移工的犯罪集團。"},{"start":2053.123,"end":2077.45,"text":"那再來就是有關防堵青少年涉詐欺犯罪那這邊我們從宣導面各地檢署機集提供私資及職員協力提升青少年的法律智能從防制面與各部會共同推動預防少年兒童犯罪方案查緝面刑事與行政結合共同嚴防青少年涉入詐欺犯罪那有關於打詐四法施行"},{"start":2078.67,"end":2105.988,"text":"相關的策略作為第一就是打詐四法相關執法的一個進度包括詐欺犯罪、危害防治條例這部分是本部上午應定的法規將積極配合其他機關訂定相關的法規提供法制的一個意見第二洗錢防治法本部有去訂定授權執法有四部目前部分法規會嫌中部法規完成預告"},{"start":2106.428,"end":2124.347,"text":"目前在持續進行法制作業。通報法部分有定兩部執法,盡力完成預告,讓持續進行法制作業,刑事訴訟法、特殊強述處分狀態,司法院嚴厲訂定刑事訴訟、特殊強述處分執行辦法授權之外,本部會積極配合相關法制作業。」"},{"start":2125.288,"end":2150.697,"text":"那有關你這個打詐四法消防配套措施那這部分本部已經在113.10.26發文各檢察機關督促所有檢察會要具體求行並適時提起上述嚴懲詐欺犯罪那另外發文各檢察機關督促所有檢察會依詐欺防治條例53條規定善用偵查中審判中的調和解制度"},{"start":2152.213,"end":2167.362,"text":"另外有任理反起訴為適當的優先命被告向被害人支付損害賠償作為反起訴的一個條件也強制納管、查緝虛擬貨幣及第三方支付詐欺本部會督導、抬高堅實、邀請主管部會"},{"start":2168.823,"end":2183.874,"text":"來共同延伸、來擬定策略、強化各部會的連結、持續優化的告誡制度。」那具體的成效這部分新法已經有七件了這部分限制的金融賬戶請參列報告資料"},{"start":2185.855,"end":2212.646,"text":"通報法這部分目前申請調取的流量也471件本部身為打詐國家對承詐面組織的機關仍持續督導抬高監督、帶同檢調機關結合其他打詐國家及成員共同打擊詐欺犯罪以上報告敬請主席、各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝部長那我們下一位請內政部馬次長進行報告"},{"start":2224.78,"end":2242.389,"text":"主席、各位委員、先生、女士今天應邀到貴委員會列席工作報告備詢首先非常誠摯的感謝我們委員對於我們外籍工還有青少年對於涉詐議題跟打詐四法相關配套措施的一個關注與重視"},{"start":2243.669,"end":2267.144,"text":"本部為配合行政院有效遏止我們在詐欺犯罪的一個亂象其中打詐四法經大院通過是國人備受關注及期待的重要法案我們透過各行政機關的互相合作來共同打擊詐欺犯罪所以針對今天委員會所提的內容我們提出專案報告如下"},{"start":2268.985,"end":2293.563,"text":"第一有關於防制移工及青少年淪為詐欺集團工具的部分在移工涉詐的情形自統計我們發現目前以泰國、越南、印尼及菲律賓的外籍移工他的一個涉詐人員的一個數字是為最高的那麼在113年9月前我們目前查獲有711人"},{"start":2294.964,"end":2315.132,"text":"那幾乎他是112年全年的數字所以在詐欺犯罪的部分我們有一個上升的趨勢所以在移工的部分我們會是目前在打詐工作所做防範的一個重點那移工從事於詐騙工作其實主要有幾個原因那第一個當然就是同儕之間的一個影響因為"},{"start":2316.712,"end":2335.657,"text":"移工在社交圈的部分比較侷限所以在同鄉或者是工作夥伴之間會有涉入詐騙的話他就很可能受到影響涉入這個所謂的詐騙集團的利用那第二個就是法律意識比較薄弱對於我國的法律認識不清那也沒有體認到參與詐騙集團或是擔任車手的一個後果"},{"start":2339.838,"end":2343.402,"text":"移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":2360.953,"end":2377.999,"text":"我們跟包括移民署、包括勞動部我們善用宣導平台來加強對移工本身利用牠的母語文字然後加強網路推波的量能那第二個就是在警民聯繫管道的部分的強化那透過警政署跟地方警政機關的一個聯繫"},{"start":2379.56,"end":2400.85,"text":"跟我們的僱主之間形成一個窗口那多管道的跟這個警政單位來反映移工的一個狀態那第三個當然就是我們有查獲移工所涉入的資安案件的部分我們會去做收集及加強這個資安案件的一個情資的收報那來了解它背後是不是有一個集團性的動態來規劃這個相關的應處作為"},{"start":2403.951,"end":2424.876,"text":"那第二個有關於青少年涉詐的部分那青少年涉詐到目前為止我們所查獲的人數大概佔總數的59.06%那是我們在少年涉詐的擔任車手跟人頭賬戶大概是我們在少年涉詐的兩大類型那依照我們"},{"start":2425.797,"end":2442.316,"text":"的分析目前少年色詐的原因也是因為第一個同儕的一個引誘那第二個當然就是我們在少年的部分他們有經濟上的需求那透過這個詐欺能夠得到比較快的金錢的來源那作為一個變成一個誘惑"},{"start":2443.317,"end":2465.206,"text":"那在青少年的涉詐防治的策略那我們在警政單位跟教育部門我們合作包括查緝利用少年犯罪者後方的這個集團那第二個就是說希望能夠透過少年的就業輔導跟管道那跟訴發部合作下架違法的打工訊息那也告"},{"start":2466.127,"end":2477.442,"text":"訴家長在涉詐的賠償應該要做連帶的責任處分讓我們所有的包括少年及家庭都了解到涉詐的後果"},{"start":2478.766,"end":2506.594,"text":"那麼警察人員在勤務執行中我們也會關注高風險的對象在這個讓我們的處罰少年能夠降低暴露在詐騙風險的一個機會那另外當然也是利用入校的宣導來強化對於青少年族群的一個部分那對於打詐四法實行之後那本法的這個後續的一些合作那包括說通保法的部分"},{"start":2507.394,"end":2524.393,"text":"會跟我們的通傳會來合作進行網路流量管理的一個建置這部分的預算也在大院審查中希望透過我們建置這樣的一個系統能夠了解到整個追溯詐騙集團本身它所運用的一個"},{"start":2525.554,"end":2541.446,"text":"電子通訊的內容?行事訴訟法有關於強制處分專章的配套,我們也配合司法院及法務部來建立訴訟立稿及系統建制。有關於洗髮法的部分,"},{"start":2542.507,"end":2568.118,"text":"我們也配合金管會對於目前的虛擬資產服務業的部分還有抒發部對於第三方支付都能夠進行登錄來強化它的一個管理最後我們在詐欺危害防治條例的部分跟抒發部還有金管會合作將網路上有關於詐騙的訊息都能夠降到最低結語的部分"},{"start":2569.608,"end":2597.915,"text":"我們為了防範移工、青少年以及其他容易遭到詐騙、犯罪引誘的族群我們有多項的策略希望透過跨部會的合作跟後續案例的分析來共同打造一個安全安心的社會希望社會各界繼續支持鼓勵來打擊詐欺犯罪的一個產業鏈請示主席因為我有兩個身份所以第二個報告要不要一次報告完"},{"start":2598.855,"end":2625.935,"text":"看那個次長如果您想要講的話就繼續好謝謝不好意思活動有一點不太好還是說就以書面為主就好看委員的意見沒有我都可以都可以好那就就次長您就休息那我們會參考您的書面報告謝謝主席委員提亮那提出書面報告是列席機關如果沒有口頭報告那就請參閱書面"},{"start":2629.582,"end":2647.243,"text":"結婚報告完畢相關書面內容列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2659.713,"end":2664.524,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請我們法務部部長以及司法院的刑事廳廳長"},{"start":2676.182,"end":2694.572,"text":"兩位好憲法法庭針對有關於死刑作出判決以後具體在執行上面接下來要怎麼樣處理都是社會大眾非常關心的問題我之前在執行的時候已經請教過了其中"},{"start":2695.892,"end":2722.019,"text":"針對有關於死刑判決應經各級法院合議庭法官的一致決這個是在113年憲判制第八號的主文當中清楚記載的那這樣的一個判決在實際上面的運作過去這段時間引發相當大的討論我在之前質詢的時候也曾經請教過說世界上到底有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的立法例"},{"start":2723.154,"end":2748.961,"text":"那司法院也沒有辦法明確的回覆但沒有辦法啦憲法法庭做了判決以後這個結果就是整個台灣社會我們必須要共同承受那因此在具體的操作上先請問一下刑事廳廳長在憲法法庭做出這樣的判決以後第一審如果要做死刑的宣告的話需不需要一字決需要那如果上訴到第二審"},{"start":2750.209,"end":2769.186,"text":"不管第二審是維持第一審的死刑判決還是第二審把第一審非死刑的判決撤銷改判為死刑判決需不需要一致決需要這樣的死刑判決上訴到最高法院的時候最高法院如果要維持死刑判決需不需要一致決需要需要嘛"},{"start":2770.595,"end":2795.25,"text":"那因此對未來的部分在實際上面的運作你剛回答得很清楚現在大家更關心的事情是那37位現在還在牢中的死刑犯要怎麼處理的問題嗎憲法法庭裡面說什麼他說如果不符合主文第6項議旨的部分指的就是判決要一字決"},{"start":2796.801,"end":2811.922,"text":"除非有證據證明各該確定終局判決系以一致決作成以外除非你有證據可以證明都是用一致決作成否則的話檢察總長提起非常上述"},{"start":2813.301,"end":2835.386,"text":"現場法庭的判決寫得很清楚我因為關心這個事情所以我就開始請司法院上一次的時候我就請你們提供一到三審現在37位是不是有一致決當然我們最後鎖定的是在最終審最高法院的判決結果結果你們回給我有兩個部分"},{"start":2836.326,"end":2857.651,"text":"一個部分是七位還有評議部評議部還沒有銷毀的評議部沒有銷毀的你們回給我的書面答案是說你們只是司法行政機關沒有辦法申請越攬評議意見所以只能告訴我說評議部還存著但是你們看不到評議的意見沒有辦法越攬嘛"},{"start":2858.444,"end":2883.198,"text":"但我就覺得很奇怪啊你們書面回覆給我是這個樣子但是我們召委安排到臺北地方法院考察的時候我們事後在臺北地方法院進行座談的時候結果你們的副秘書長就直接講留有七個還有評議部的都有一字訣那你們的副秘書長是怎麼知道評議部的內容"},{"start":2884.737,"end":2901.232,"text":"這部分跟委員說明一下那這個部分不是我們去越南那個相關的評議部是我們透過行政管道跟最高法院聯繫他們有回覆最高檢的相關的查詢他們回覆說目前還有六件"},{"start":2902.533,"end":2927.481,"text":"6件欺人的評議部是保留著那目前可以用這個方式來證明是當時的一致決說我用這樣延伸出來這部分是有一致決的以上所以嘛我們法律人就把話講清楚了這已經判刑確定了評議部裡面是不是有一致決社會大眾都很關心你們就要公開大大方方的講"},{"start":2929.093,"end":2951.646,"text":"回給我的函搞得神神秘秘的結果你們本來就知道阿這是一秘密的事項嗎如果這是一秘密的事項的話最高法院讓你們副秘書長知道那不就違反泄密罪了應該是不是阿更嚴重的事情阿是30個死刑犯評議部已經銷毀了現在怎麼辦"},{"start":2955.27,"end":2974.585,"text":"那目前如果沒辦法證明是一致決的話那可以由檢察總長來斟酌是否要替這相關的死刑犯來提起非常上訴你說有檢察總長來斟酌現在法庭的判決寫得這麼清楚了檢察總長有不提起非常上訴的空間嗎"},{"start":2975.871,"end":3004.803,"text":"因為非常上就是檢察總長的獨佔這我了解啦 權責上面是檢察總長嘛我們法律人依法論法嘛請你回到憲法法庭的判決平易不銷毀了到底有沒有一字決限於真偽不明你們那天在台北地院的時候講得很清楚不利益是由檢方、由法院這邊來加以負擔按照憲判制的判決程序保障要求最嚴密啊一定要一字決啊"},{"start":3005.731,"end":3017.256,"text":"沒有一字訣沒有辦法證明有一字訣檢察總長有不提起非常上述的空間嗎如果依照憲判的意思是應該要提起好來接下來請部長針對目前現在處理的狀況檢察總長我看起來30個啊評議部已經銷毀的依法論法"},{"start":3030.092,"end":3047.717,"text":"檢察總長是沒有不提起非常上述的空間提起非常上述了以後依照現判制的判決這個訴訟程序恐怕有違背法令的問題那原判決就要撤銷就要重啟程序了這件事情法務部研議準備好了嗎"},{"start":3050.085,"end":3078.012,"text":"這部分要不要提起非常上述這還是尊重檢察總長的罪這些檢察總長要不要尊重憲法法庭的判決當然這檢察總長要先判意思對嘛所以我們剛剛講了半天法律人就是依法論法當然是檢察總長的職權嘛檢察總長的職權也不是檢察總長愛幹嘛就幹嘛檢察總長也要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊再不高興再不滿意再反對"},{"start":3079.656,"end":3094.144,"text":"我們活在這個體制裡面就是要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊現在我關心的是檢察總長提起非常上述重啟程序了以後接下來的因應法務部跟最高檢察署這邊準備好沒有這部分"},{"start":3099.517,"end":3117.534,"text":"有關於本部只能做就是有關於那個修法的那個一個部分依憲判意旨來做一個修法那這部分我們那個憲判意旨有提到就是有關於刑法跟那個監獄刑法的修法那這部分我們在不少請你針對問題回答啦不要移轉問題啦"},{"start":3119.881,"end":3135.089,"text":"修法以前你還是要按照先判制來做嘛這沒有問題嘛社會大眾現在關心的事情是提起非常上述訴訟程序違背法令重啟程序以後接下來的事情法務部跟最高檢察署準備好沒有"},{"start":3137.639,"end":3163.53,"text":"那這部分審判的事務應該是由司法院來做一個回應那有關你委員提到的槌尋就是本部的因應的部分那當然我們可以做到最高檢查組跟高檢署我們有跟那個最高跟高檢保持橫向聯繫、中向聯繫來密切掌握案件的一個動態嗎沒有關係啦我覺得部長某個程度上面來講啦你的憤記"},{"start":3164.75,"end":3184.002,"text":"有的時候守得很好所謂有的時候守得很好你覺得這個是檢察總長的事情你沒有辦法回答我尊重我尊重但是今天利用這個機會質詢是要讓部長知道可能檢察體系的人包括司法院的人心裡都要做好準備"},{"start":3185.413,"end":3205.368,"text":"接下來30個死刑的確定判決被撤銷重啟程序了以後所有的成本是這個國家這個社會大家共同來承擔所以我是基於善意才提醒你們接下來的程序接下來可能會造成的衝擊大家準備好了沒有"},{"start":3206.345,"end":3236.005,"text":"接下來下一個問題跟今天我們打詐最主要的目的就是要防止被詐騙保護被詐騙的受害人我一直在追蹤IMB的案子IMB的案子從起訴以前我在協助這些被害人現在一審判決出來了那當然除了祖賢、鄭耀峰、張淑芬這兩個人以外其他的人也都被判刑了"},{"start":3236.585,"end":3249.834,"text":"但問題是現在被害者所面臨到的問題是什麼?曾耀峰、張淑芬、顏妙珍這一些人有一些有刑法加重詐欺被搶項競合但最後還是用銀行法不法吸金罪"},{"start":3250.819,"end":3267.99,"text":"罪責比較高所以想像競合從一種手段都是用銀行法來判但現在問題來了他們現在在刑事訴訟要提起附帶民事訴訟的時候刑事訴訟提起附帶民事訴訟來請教刑事院議員需要繳裁判費嗎"},{"start":3268.971,"end":3290.541,"text":"如果在刑事程序提起負擔民事訴訟是不用繳裁判費但是現在被害人接到了地方法院的裁定接到地方法院的裁定說什麼說他們不能夠提起刑事賦名要他們補繳裁判費不能提起刑事賦名要補繳裁判費這個法律見解從哪裡來的"},{"start":3292.368,"end":3318.561,"text":"這個主要是他到底是直接被害人還是間接被害人情勢訴訟法就有關於附帶民事訴訟的提起有限制在直接被害人嗎目前實務上的見解是直接被害人來來來你說目前實務上的見解是直接被害人來看一看111年啊台灣高等法院法律座談他們最後的結論壓倒性的是什麼壓倒性的我唸給你看"},{"start":3320.12,"end":3332.412,"text":"不以所犯之罪是直接侵害個人法義違憲依照《刑事注重法》487條第一項規定的文義沒有限制是否法義直接或間接受害絕大多數喔"},{"start":3337.15,"end":3360.141,"text":"法官的見解跟剛剛廳長表示的見解不太一樣民事的那個見解是他以直接被害人為基礎的對嘛那我現在就問題就來了法律人啊法律人自己啊可以有假說、以說、秉說、聽說那在法律人自己的世界裡但我要拜託廳長、拜託司法院跳出來思考的是什麼"},{"start":3361.144,"end":3378.498,"text":"可不可以回到一般人在意的事情回到被害人在意的事情當我們的法院系統都已經浩浩蕩蕩找了六七十個法官喔找了六七十個法官喔"},{"start":3379.338,"end":3404.245,"text":"最後大家可以說是絕大多數壓倒性的共識認為不應該限於直接被害人間接被害人應該要把他含掛在裡面但問題是這樣的結論做出來了實際被害人他在地方法院還是面臨到相同的困難他現在面臨到的困難是說我一定要補繳裁判費要不然我不能請求損害賠償"},{"start":3407.574,"end":3428.985,"text":"我如果不補繳裁判費接下來會發生什麼事情我不補繳裁判費接下來會發生什麼事情裁定駁回就是一腳把他踢出法院的大門之外嘛你沒有錢繳裁判費裁定駁回但我們現在在討論的是詐騙的被害人"},{"start":3431.721,"end":3445.522,"text":"是詐騙的被害人這樣子司法實務上面的操作符合對詐騙被害人的保護嗎來請教廳長那個跟國元說明一下事實上如果他沒有錢繳裁判費那還有什麼訴訟救助可以申請"},{"start":3446.601,"end":3467.778,"text":"你還要他再繞一個路然後再去處理訴訟救助啊用目前的規定是這個樣子你如果這個是答案的話啦你如果這個是答案的話刑事赴民為了要保護這些被害人不用繳裁判費的這個規定就可以廢啦你全部都廢掉嘛你告訴每一個人啦去申請訴訟救助啊這個是我們面對被害人應該有的態度嗎"},{"start":3473.983,"end":3498.764,"text":"這個是我的問題啦當絕大多數的法官都抱持這樣的見解他們那個結論是有給司法院的你知道嗎那個民事的個案的部分我這邊不便再表示但是我們會把他待會我不會跟你談個案我再跟你談的全部都是抽象的法律原則但我們看到抽象的法律原則應該要保護詐欺的被害人"},{"start":3500.277,"end":3521.6,"text":"應該要便於他們求償嗎但實際上面的實踐卻不是這樣所以才請教你請教你是我希望做的事情是試圖試圖在司法體系當中不要再耗費大家的勞力時間費用如果能夠統一法令見解的話不要讓這些人很辛苦"},{"start":3522.543,"end":3531.448,"text":"因為他們接下來要冒的法律風險是什麼我讓你裁定駁回嘛裁定駁回以後我不服就抗告嘛抗告到上級審的法院"},{"start":3532.762,"end":3559.337,"text":"去討公道但問題是我們法律人出一張嘴巴講簡單我們用嘴巴講的程序都是這些被害人他們要自己付出勞力時間費用一個一個堆疊起來的等到他們真的討到正義的時候其實已經身心俱疲老實講現在已經身心俱疲這個案件拖了7年這個案件拖了7年"},{"start":3560.712,"end":3582.664,"text":"現在才一審判決出來什麼時候判決確定實現正義之路還遙遙無期我希望司法院回去因為這個不是我給司法院的功課這個是最後投票出來的結果我跟廳長報告其中有47個人認為根本就不應該什麼根本就不應該去採"},{"start":3586.454,"end":3606.776,"text":"直接被害的見解 間接被害還要在裡面最後的結論是 建請司法院轉請最高法院研究這個司法院有收到嗎有轉請最高法院研究嗎那個時候我還沒來沒有關係啊 你還沒來你回去跟司法院那些大官講啊"},{"start":3608.32,"end":3622.21,"text":"趕快統一法令見解保障這些被害人的權益因為你們如果不做當我們確定你們不做這件事情的時候立法者別無選擇下一個行動就是修法"},{"start":3623.157,"end":3643.525,"text":"就是修法我在法條裡面把它明定不以直接被害為限否則的話絕大多數的見解全部都已經出來了還有法官做這樣的線索解釋導致被害人欲哭無淚這個不是我們制定這些法律在保障被害人權益的初衷"},{"start":3645.596,"end":3672.817,"text":"聽長可以嗎?是,謝謝委員指教你不用謝謝我指教我剛拜託你做的事情我幫被害者發聲啊是,謝謝幫他們說的話請您帶回去給司法院然後依照這些法官的建議建請最高法院趕快統一法令間接如果法令間接統一的話趕快讓地方法院的法官知道否則這樣的情況會不斷的發生啊這樣可以嗎?可以,沒問題好,謝謝"},{"start":3675.187,"end":3698.395,"text":"謝謝,那我們下一位請謝榮介委員感謝主席我請法務部長及經政署長我先請兩位來"},{"start":3706.805,"end":3717.529,"text":"部長你好 早上好 署長辛苦了 委員高昌部長請教你喔 37個市評判啦 現在有30個啊 說已經評理部已經過期了 沒保留的啊 現在市判員 我覺得很奇怪 可有可能這樣就差嗎"},{"start":3731.158,"end":3742.381,"text":"不然也把以前的心胖的法官叫來問看看你是不是都有把他判死刑不然那個就不能查了這三十個如果不能繼續記啊 部長這樣要怎麼辦但是法官說可以再拖那個是不對的 那是違背人權的精神喔你給人家拖那麼久對不對 有人要拖十幾年了這三十個如果不能再拖就對了你如果要拼出去 我已經在這裡跟你說過了"},{"start":3760.485,"end":3769.93,"text":"我們剛好有15個大法官包括理責的那幾個都給省了一個人叫林佑弄的坐在他們家吃飯大三個月Q處理的對不對現在問題來了這七個都有一體的法官判他死刑所以大概這七個是無名非中原啦部長我請教你"},{"start":3791.723,"end":3806.681,"text":"一時要解釋這個我們會依照憲判議職8號的一個解釋如果有受刑能力的話,當然我們就可以依法執行有阿,他在那裡關了久了,你把他關到笑他,他也沒說他"},{"start":3808.274,"end":3817.896,"text":"裡面有幾個可以執行的問題是你要執行嗎這管理在你這便你的問題這個有依照憲法的意旨的話那現在這個37個還在現在還在檢查總長在審那7個可以處理啦嘛我告訴你這還是要審啦這個我想這個救法、研法我們就以目前來講最高限你現在要叫老總統請那些民調現在我存力啦"},{"start":3837.355,"end":3849.317,"text":"存的沒人我多求他民進黨在我委員會沒一個可以求他,我存你你還敢打兩下,你民調的氣差不多10%,看你要什麼我不會害你啦,我都在幫你碰到這七個可以打兩下,打兩下給我們看看,彌補人民對待法官寫憲的失望"},{"start":3866.476,"end":3870.557,"text":"對司法正義,在你的勝負中還存在著一點點的愚蠻。」你有想要這樣做嗎?當然我們這就是,我還是重申就是,現在還在審查中,審議中那這個我們會依照憲判意旨的這些的有所行的我們就會依法執行"},{"start":3889.246,"end":3915.656,"text":"那剛才那個委員提到那個整個一個一個一個羈押的一個問題齁那我想因為帶這些確定死刑定驗的這些的死刑犯他們現在是說你不是羈押沒關係啦,可以拔你就要拔就對了啦你的意思是這樣啦齁是不是可以執行你就會執行是不是這樣我們都是依法處理嘛"},{"start":3916.124,"end":3942.544,"text":"我這依法處理在哪?可以接行你就會接行是不是這樣目前那個整個一個死刑的一個憲判歷史死刑是合憲的嘛齁那但是如果說有沒有受刑能力現在還在審議中嘛這個檢討中央還在審議中如果有你就會執行就對了這個就依法處理啊依法處理是你買啊問啊你要或不要這個個案的問題齁那個還要再經過這個算個案好沒關係"},{"start":3947.065,"end":3953.007,"text":"副長你有說陳啟毅人已經遭處理了人還要再過來對不對目前的話是有專案小組在做一個你講人還要再過來嘛這個研判研判來你的研判可能不對來我請書長你知道我一向對警察很有信心的是這個人如果還要再過來"},{"start":3975.099,"end":3990.077,"text":"他憑你的能力,他是沒有辦法脫出你的強重心尤其我對於平時警察局的扮演,我是非常有信心的就對了就過去的厭倦這樣下來,你所掌握的端竊又有在說嗎?"},{"start":3996.458,"end":4003.97,"text":"現在的訊息各方面都有啦那我們現在還在查證當中我的情報說他在外南啦"},{"start":4006.448,"end":4028.886,"text":"沒有啦 因為委員 現在印尼喔專業小組還在做啦 印尼這牽涉到偵查中的這個案件啦這哪有偵查中 這偵查要人去我找去啊沒有啦 我們在這種這個網站看我們有那個互助嗎有 有互助有互助我們有派聯絡官在那裡現在都沒有 現在看我們有在互動的像菲律賓而已嘛"},{"start":4031.701,"end":4039.265,"text":"沒有啦,我們的東南亞國家有的也是有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的"},{"start":4062.891,"end":4089.567,"text":"不一定啦在南部不一定啦都不一定都不一定抓得到嗎我相信應該抓得到好好 多久的時間我看這個要喊時間 委員你給我一個空間一個月一個月抓不到 你算漏氣我們盡量做啦不是啦 真的啊我相信你的領域 只要在國內啊到今天你已經兩星期了嗯"},{"start":4091.57,"end":4101.833,"text":"不可能行使、警察、警政署一個日告來的人兩星期在這裡就沒有了這違背我對警察的認定了對不對是有信心嗎有信心嗎1個月1個月是有夠靈了1個月加進程兩星期就夠半個月了1個人嫌疑中台吞打我們這麼多費工錢的嫌疑犯"},{"start":4121.454,"end":4130.562,"text":"可遭取遭離開你的情侶及伴侶這件事有多嚴重呢?他還沒有熱情呢?對不對?各位我請那個指揮中心的指揮官來指揮官我請教你每次這個平台升立這麼久了你今天說你有兩個新婚了"},{"start":4150.936,"end":4160.22,"text":"我們的犯罪受理如何?這裏面有食人及沒有食人的嗎?部長你請坐啦,這中間你比較無啦你不是智慧官嗎?沒有啦,我來回答一下啦,我回答因為打仗的這個儀表板現在我們在處理嘛,現在一天啦,一天差不多都在四億左右啦"},{"start":4176.636,"end":4184.524,"text":"就是案件發生在五百件到六百件一天的財損大概四億左右一天的財損大概四億左右一天的財損大概四億左右一天的財損大概四億左右"},{"start":4200.405,"end":4210.029,"text":"我看 鄉親聽到這事實是都白痴老白痴所以說 這種是一個 這種是一個 有那是一個不因為 我們在這裡要討論的說你這個平台要呈現真實的數字啦對 是真實的數字因為裡面有勝案到沒勝好 來 從這個數字出來剛才市長說 你在報告說這五個州裡面 有外南的 菲律賓的"},{"start":4231.633,"end":4234.936,"text":"和我人的相較者,我還有泰國的,這裡是實際參與立場的案件,那裡是包括提供中和給詐欺集團,都有算了"},{"start":4246.713,"end":4264.461,"text":"這就是有抓到的案件啦你不用想說有抓到的嘛好來一百十一年就有三百幾個啦三百八十幾個一百十二年七百三十幾個我知道那三十二萬塊的啦對對對阿沒抓到的所以說有一些沒抓到的就是壓過有一些再來這裡移工他的口罪金管會敢有來金管會拜託會來"},{"start":4274.383,"end":4286.406,"text":"我感覺你們這個平台就都沒有方向在那裡來我...順便我請教你喔,一個移工禮拜,一個月的薪水合理說應該多少錢?差不多在兩萬多...三萬,沒超過了喔?沒超過三萬給你算加班三萬通是不是可以把這個金管...金管費就說...我現在說的這個考則房提供的是包括違法的"},{"start":4304.298,"end":4310.764,"text":"逃逸的、逃逸的這包括合法的已經出境了、考測還在的。」金管委你知不知道?"},{"start":4312.942,"end":4337.414,"text":"委員好 有關於這一個部分我們已經有跟移民署有借界資料也就是說如果外籍移工已經有出境或者收容等這些資訊銀行可以查知得到那如果銀行查到這些外籍移工已經這個帳戶已經沒有薪資進來可是卻有異常的資金進來他可以做相關的管控您很被動 很被動"},{"start":4340.418,"end":4344.92,"text":"遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":4364.193,"end":4391.443,"text":"甚至他想要來接受遷還,我參記表就不賣!然後我把我的帳戶再賣一倍!」你知不知道有這個情形?就是說如果這個人已經不在國內可是帳戶有異常的資金管的進出的話金管會這邊喔是要不要有這個官僚的心態啦我感覺因為你們都會想說想要幫忙不夠積極啦不夠積極啦"},{"start":4394.178,"end":4421.074,"text":"能不能設定就研議啊你正常你的薪水不會超過三萬假如這些列管的移工外籍移工的帳號他每個月進出一禮拜譬如說超過十到十五萬這就異常了嘛你一薪水的五倍如果這樣就把這個他作為警示低度"},{"start":4422.028,"end":4431.177,"text":"的警示或是中度的警示賬號的時候,搞乎競證書這資料下去,很快就可以發覺這裡是有詐欺或沒有詐欺,甚至會讓詐欺案件減少很多,你們有這樣考慮嗎?"},{"start":4440.186,"end":4457.019,"text":"同意委員的說法不過這個部分這個金額要怎麼設定就是由各銀行他會去看相關資金的進出來做相關的處理他可以停止他的交易也可以來做圈存、做凍結現在我們在這裡就是要討論這個結構出來我跟你說譬如他3萬他不是來做生意的他是來吃頭肉的"},{"start":4464.458,"end":4475.183,"text":"這套路他不是要做生意一個月基本薪酬不會超過3萬這樣他一個月花禮拜有10萬、15萬譬如說我們家庭15萬因為你如果只有15萬額度一般詐欺集團不會用因為他用了他付出一個代價收到15萬就緊死了"},{"start":4487.523,"end":4499.268,"text":"我講這樣你有理解這個情形嗎?了解啊如果這樣是不是15萬就已經青少年五輩了呢?啊我們就把他提出經濟人口交給經濟單位打詐中心他是不是就這樣有辦法嗎?指揮說啊你比這樣我想不出來你不就要跟金管會講一下"},{"start":4511.397,"end":4525.883,"text":"跟委員報告委員的意見我們列管然後我們把這個部份帶回去打詐你列管金管會不配合你們的列管不了嗎?我們列管有跨平台我們有跨平台的列管金管你認為這個金價在10萬至15萬這樣有可恥嗎?署長這樣有可恥嗎?"},{"start":4532.068,"end":4537.754,"text":"因為詐騙集團他不敢嘛,我幫你收一個帳戶來,15萬就去紅警司啦,他會感到沒必要,所以這移工的帳戶他就不會去贏了嘛"},{"start":4547.877,"end":4556.319,"text":"我們現在一般就是說我們臺灣鄉親就對了 大家去我們騙家已經都會跌價了所以要再給我拿帳號要什麼 我們警覺信高他才會轉而去找這些移工嘛你移工你要把這個門檻扭起來10萬至15萬合理啦 外國可以處理"},{"start":4574.947,"end":4601.153,"text":"這些什麼樣符合這個異常的態樣我們可以再來討論那回去再做相關的討論你報告 願意一個的報告一句話給我好嗎可以一句話給我具體的做法 我覺得這是不用說太多大學問啦對上下課 吃到餓 青少吃一口吃不到餓你零三吃一口 請一堆人去各種各路營"},{"start":4607.559,"end":4610.323,"text":"這移工外籍移工的首級列管"},{"start":4626.861,"end":4644.545,"text":"報告委員,我們現在就是跟那個警政署這邊有建165聯合風險資料庫,如果有那個通報的話,他只要輸入那個護照號碼,那我們電信業者這邊都會有列管,大概...欸,輸掉,啊,越來關案件越多為什麼?"},{"start":4648.311,"end":4657.083,"text":"有關發生的案件多少?詐騙的金額多少?有的,有的,這案件都是當然有關在處理中,中有一些可能有求,沒說完全都做得這麼好,沒完全嘛"},{"start":4664.153,"end":4684.282,"text":"沒有全部所以這其實你現在說的這就是保安我覺得最重要的就是在那個廣告平台的訊息堵住源頭不管是外我們今天討論的是外籍移工他的金融廣告平台那就是專門的嘛那應該是在那個平台的源頭堵止住"},{"start":4689.344,"end":4703.059,"text":"那個是一個最大宗的最大宗就是我們人民不去接受這個訊息不去接受這個嘛這個藥帳戶啊手機啊是要反落的手段而已啊就是那個最大就是那個訊息要堵住了"},{"start":4704.093,"end":4717.036,"text":"堵住你地盤堵住堵得住嗎應該可以堵得住因為這個部分我們堵得住配合四法部四法部我們要把它廢掉啊沒有啦廢掉我們打詐就你廢掉打詐就荒野前者已轉啊沒有四法部我們就都沒辦法打詐不是這樣啦絕對不是這樣啦"},{"start":4729.236,"end":4742.341,"text":"對嗎?四法部給我們提了多少錢喔?只要提20%的錢,交給經濟署就對了經濟署絕對做屁比較好,對嗎?你有信心嗎?有人這樣說啦沒有啦,真的啊!四法部,你沒帶沒紙,你要在這裡替他背書那六星廳已經對他很感冒了,你都沒在注意你要注意,若遲到會動用啦四法部準備要包起來啦"},{"start":4761.144,"end":4783.343,"text":"我們下一位請林思明委員發言好 謝謝趙偉我們請法務部我們鄭部長麻煩部長警政署我們張署長署長"},{"start":4787.958,"end":4815.145,"text":"是部長還有署長早我想我們國人對於詐騙案件感受很深所以今天招委排這個議題我想讓大家更深層的去探討詐欺案件為什麼我們打詐四法上路之後還是詐騙的金額還是維持在很高的一個金額然後案件量還是持續不斷的去上漲"},{"start":4816.653,"end":4835.785,"text":"那我想我們明年打算的預算增加大概4.8倍當然政府是希望能以打詐視同作戰的決心除惡勿近但是我們看到就是說似乎也仍然不足以有效嚇阻這些詐欺犯罪"},{"start":4836.738,"end":4848.924,"text":"那我第一個問題先請教署長署長剛才提到說今年7月我們打詐就詐欺的這個被害人的被詐欺金額是110億8月9月10月呢有統計嗎8月137億9月118億10月份120億"},{"start":4862.991,"end":4880.064,"text":"所以今年度所以七八月份七八月份是高峰那九到十月是有稍微有降那委員長提的就是說我們打詐四法是在七月份通過通過之後現在就在做這個相關部委執法的這個修訂所以我會覺得這個"},{"start":4885.988,"end":4908.522,"text":"今年的年底以前先是一個空窗期所以這個詐欺的這種狀況還是屬於高爆發的一個階段但是我看這案件是有漸漸的往下走因為你現在看有一些網路廣告平台你沒有實名制有很多人都不想要配合嘛"},{"start":4908.942,"end":4915.403,"text":"這是從11月開始還沒統計統計到10月份就已經高達了10月還有120億是個高峰期所以11月截至目前為止你沒有做過統計因為今天已經11月21號了"},{"start":4932.247,"end":4950.657,"text":"十一月會下降嗎?趨勢會下降嗎?我現在看因為我們每天都會公佈疫苗版大概在一億到五億左右這張我剛才有講過就是說在七到八月份大概在四億多九到十月份大概三億九差不多兩千幾萬一天所以說這個數字看起來是"},{"start":4955.819,"end":4979.401,"text":"緩步的再往下走那種趨勢你10月還在還比那個9月還多啊你說我看到就沒有了但你10月份大概到一百十倍了那我希望你講的是能夠是真實反應真實面11月我們希望看到你11月統計數字確實有呈現下降的一個趨勢我相信這個每天的儀表版我每天都跟他公佈而且是真實的數據"},{"start":4982.724,"end":5005.561,"text":"現在打詐四法通過打詐的政策推行後我們現在目前看到的趨勢就是案件數及受害者的財損金額一直增加部長你認為為什麼一直增加這個趨勢的原因是什麼為什麼工具給了法案也都已經上路了"},{"start":5006.82,"end":5027.255,"text":"那是什麼原因?以前那個都是電信詐騙都是我們傳統我們都會接到那個電話那那個是亂槍打鳥式的嘛那現在的那個詐騙的形象因為詐騙也會進化所以他現在最主要的詐騙的類型他現在是比較轉向那個投資型的一個廣告那投資廣告的詐騙金額多"},{"start":5028.536,"end":5043.556,"text":"那些這個被害人的話他可能對象會資歷會比我們對他先打電話會資歷比較大所以你意思說現在就傳統的用打電話來行騙的這個類型已經慢慢減少了現在大宗的就是網路詐欺啦尤其是投資的部分"},{"start":5047.06,"end":5066.411,"text":"這個投資詐騙的這部分的確是比較因為他有做一些包裝所以這些投資大眾會誤信所以他等到發掘到的時候可能那個錢能處理好幾筆部長你這樣回答可以那署長你的類型觀察到類型是不是因為網路投資的類型沒有錯現在的詐欺第一名就是"},{"start":5067.151,"end":5092.518,"text":"這是投資型的網絡投資型的詐欺就是把你這個訊息投放給你就是高暴力高高高手的很快的時間就可以獲利把它點入他的點擊之後然後進入他的那個群組來的一直來養起來這樣好幫你套起來然後就在裡面詐騙話語了解其實是這種投資類型的是大宗大宗大概佔百分之六七十"},{"start":5093.719,"end":5104.507,"text":"就是你們有一個165的APP打詐的APP嘛對建置這個費用大概多少大概一千多萬一千多萬嘛對啊速發部勒 速發部我們是副署長副署長請問啊那你們的建構的這個打詐APP總共花多少錢"},{"start":5126.047,"end":5152.255,"text":"6千萬6千萬難怪剛才謝榮介會那麼生氣你們把這個業務不如移轉給我們那個警政署你們花了6千萬我有看到那個王世堅委員講說速發布建制這個APP花了6千萬比警政署多了6倍結果你們的成效非常的差"},{"start":5154.975,"end":5174.326,"text":"我們今年建置的費用是不到一千萬那王委員所稱的六千萬是明年的 明年的費用那這些費用並不是只有建置費用因為還要包含一些可能未來還有一些客服可能要委外明年六千萬明年變到五千多萬今年一千多萬所以是王委員質詢錯誤啊"},{"start":5177.52,"end":5189.203,"text":"因為你們署長還講說你們部長還回答說因為這個還在測試階段啊所以成效不彰啊所以你今天跟我講那是明年才是建制費用是六千萬"},{"start":5190.733,"end":5214.078,"text":"已經建置好了這個費用是延續性的是 所以你們是花了六千萬嘛是不是 你不要在這邊胡說八道喔到底是六千萬還是一千多萬委員我們重新說一遍就是說因為它今年是先建置然後明年的部分是建置再加上客服的部分因為我們還是要一些服務然後還是 比如說"},{"start":5215.538,"end":5232.73,"text":"接聽接聽電話跟確認內容然後還有要去這個其實是蠻花人力的然後另外的話可能有比如說各個就是團體跟使用者有很多的需求需要把它修改我告訴你們啦"},{"start":5234.191,"end":5261.659,"text":"因為我們看警政署真的很辛苦花了一千多萬建立這個一六的APP反詐APP但是你們明年你說六千多萬嘛要花那麼多的錢但是我們要看到的人民要看到是你們能夠這個把錢花在刀口上你要有積極的成效讓我們看到但是現在書發部一直為人詬病的對整個打詐的一個功效啊做得非常的差"},{"start":5263.331,"end":5282.085,"text":"剛才署長他們就是針對我們網路詐欺投資犯罪類型會這個有這麼重大的一個案件書一直在攀升被騙金額也那麼高請問書發部對於這種網路詐欺的投資犯罪有什麼樣的一個政策工具能夠去遏止"},{"start":5283.76,"end":5299.992,"text":"委員好謝謝給我們說明就是我們針對打詐四法的部分裡面像比如說詐欺犯罪防治條例以及那個洗房法的部分有授予我們就是要提出四個六個執法"},{"start":5301.753,"end":5326.719,"text":"那我們六個執法目前也都已經訂定然後我們會依據時間在就是11月30號之前就是會去做一個公佈那之前針對就是網路廣告平台業者還有第三方支付跟電商業以及網路連線遊戲的部分其實我們都非常積極的去做一些行政指導跟行政檢查的部分"},{"start":5327.259,"end":5341.227,"text":"那這個部分就是很如我們之前部長有提到的我們非常的期待就是說也有預期我們在明年有關詐欺的部分會依依為我們積極的處理然後他會下降"},{"start":5342.748,"end":5366.623,"text":"剛才我給你很多時間去做一個說明根據軍管會的統計顯示截至今年10月底僅Google與Meta的投資詐騙廣告量就高達63191件顯示非實名制的廣告已成為詐騙的重要來源許多的詐騙集團是利用境外作為規避執法"},{"start":5369.105,"end":5389.251,"text":"的一個方式所以請問我們速發部或者是我們法務部、金管會金管會也上來金管會就是說我們有沒有跨部會的一個聯繫還有我們跟國際的平台這些不管是Google還有Facebook我們如何建立更緊密的合作關係"},{"start":5392.269,"end":5413.307,"text":"請速發部先回答這個部分一直是我們部長非常非常積極要求我們要跟他們去做一個比較好的一個聯防跟協作的部分那他們也非常的配合然後也有提到說在今年年底之前他們都會把這個實名制的部分做好FB還有Google"},{"start":5415.709,"end":5423.716,"text":"GOOGLE、LINE、TITO都一樣只有訴發部還有法務部有沒有共同參與?"},{"start":5425.327,"end":5449.18,"text":"這個法務部本來在太高監署我們就有一些的跟各部會的做一個聯繫平台所以我們會把檢察官的那些辦案的這些的發現我們可以再加強部我們會回饋給各部會所以各部會就是因為我們這樣大家共襄盛舉大家群體所以過了很多那個制度大家為有關心的就是其實法務部也跟那個網路社群軟體包括"},{"start":5449.78,"end":5471.851,"text":"LINE、META、GOOGLE這些有建立的資料調取的一個協議那這部分那我想我們這邊都在進行那另外那個涉及詐騙廣告這部分有建立這個剛才有講通報下架機制或透過那個一些的停止的一個網頁的一個解析那這部分就做以上的補充那另外金管會呢"},{"start":5472.831,"end":5492.91,"text":"監管會我想問你就是說對於這個社群平台採實名制的積極性你們如何的去做一個法規的調整跟委員報告那目前的話剛剛委員其實已經有提到說我們現在的投資詐騙其實已經有發生6萬多件那跟委員報告這個6萬多件的話都是我們在"},{"start":5494.03,"end":5512.682,"text":"在網路平台上我們主動去搜報出來的那發覺說他違反了我們目前我們目前先用的是頭鏡頭顧法他用冒名的方式或是匿名的方式去做的這一部分我們在第一時間拿回來就請親自警察局這邊幫我們去幫他下架那目前的話我們執行的策略就是我們在"},{"start":5513.703,"end":5524.542,"text":"搶速度,我們速度越快能夠讓他下架的話,那這悲憾的就不容易去看到。」是,那個,教練我再問你,就是說目前詐欺犯罪委員會條例授權的執法"},{"start":5525.933,"end":5549.582,"text":"他的進度如何?我們執法的部分的話我們現在未來都會在11月30日之後就會發佈我們到時候就按照這個我剛才關心的就是說目前我們金管會要如何確保社群平台啊因為現在我們看到有幾家銀行嘛他們對於這種沒有採私名制的這些網路平台就是不再跟他投廣告嘛"},{"start":5550.262,"end":5560.941,"text":"那對於這種社群平台採實名制的積極性而非僅停留在現在是由金融業它治癒的層面你們未來要如何的去做規劃"},{"start":5561.926,"end":5584.281,"text":"跟委員報告那目前金融業這邊他是採取的是一個自動自發的方式他針對這些沒有實名制的他會請他會把他廣告撤下那未來這個那個打詐四法生效之後的話那在有關的這個速發部這邊只要是指定的這些平台業者他都必須採用實名制如果沒有採用實名制的話後續都會有相關的罰則"},{"start":5611.857,"end":5623.226,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們警政署署長麻煩警政署署長署長我們法務部部長部長麻煩部長那個司法院"},{"start":5625.575,"end":5627.156,"text":"請教幾個問題周杰倫的演唱會兩位派要舉行我看下週也開放要取票先前在售票的期間黃牛這個現象非常的猖獗"},{"start":5651.286,"end":5666.064,"text":"這陣子棒球十二強很熱部分的賽事我們也看到很多其實你們也很清楚啦都有黃狗的一個足跡那署長之前在打詢的時候說你警政署全力去出擊那我想請教這陣子的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":5668.513,"end":5693.014,"text":"去準國安法委員報告上次委員早上質詢說你說是不是下午會成交結果下午就抓到用AI的這種模式去買票的有兩個集團所以我們都抓到了抓到之後我們就給他公布這個情形那現在就是說這個因為他這個演唱會是屬於文創華裡面的嘛"},{"start":5694.315,"end":5712.343,"text":"那真單純的只有買賣這個只有那些買來做荒謬荒謬荒謬票可以划到50倍啦所以這件阿另外是這個是用那個AI程式的這個用文創法用違反這個來做移送可以划5千億萬啦"},{"start":5713.303,"end":5715.684,"text":"我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!"},{"start":5733.849,"end":5750.601,"text":"那地政署那如果說違反整個文化創意產業發展法的這個黃流條款的部分啊對都會去做一個起訴但是碰到一個問題啊我也知道說我們警察警政機關跟我們法務部這個地方啊機政檢察官大家都很辛苦可是呢 廳長現在有一個問題來了就是說現在這個搭授的行為啊"},{"start":5756.396,"end":5769.121,"text":"我買兩張周杰倫的門票我買五千塊我不是買門票我就跟他說我送你一支麥克風我賣麥克風我賣我的簽名賣我的簽名警察局一定把我扔下來說那是亂消的結果我也被起訴結果到我們法院"},{"start":5783.547,"end":5791.129,"text":"無罪有說理的判決其實我都沒有意見那這個確實也很麻煩有時候你說一張有時候你說兩張它確實不是一個集團式那像這種啊這種規避的法律的一個脫法的一個行為啊"},{"start":5800.612,"end":5813.839,"text":"很清楚我就是要賣這個黃牛票可是我就跟你說我在賣我莊惠雄的簽名我是在賣咖啡然後送捉捷倫的門票我咖啡是五千捉捷倫的門票沙巴德這個法案這樣的判這個判決以後你讓我們這個警察機關跟我們法務部檢察官這樣子大家忙了半天你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":5827.622,"end":5836.704,"text":"這個脫法行為有這個實務上的見解我沒有特別的意見不過事實上我們當然法官判就當然沒有意見我的意思就是說他判決還是有說理那個說理還講得通我的意思說怎麼樣來解決總要有一個指引出來"},{"start":5846.847,"end":5859.878,"text":"這個我們回去會做進一步的研議好不好不然我們的基層警察大家忙得要死那檢察官也就認為說你這個壞蛋本身你本來就是在賣這個黃牛票那個就到法院這個我認為沒有一個指引出來前面兩個部分警察也好檢察官也好都坐北崗"},{"start":5872.301,"end":5887.215,"text":"你認不認同這樣的看法我認同委員的看法這個不要開玩笑了好不好另外我繼續要來請教的就是說我們司法院這個地方那個警政署警政署也是還有你們的"},{"start":5888.656,"end":5907.472,"text":"我一直很關心我們這個科技偵查的部分我們警政署今年在也舉辦了全國科技偵查的一個競賽這個都已經舉辦了這個是好事透過競賽跟這個實戰的一個演練才可以去發揮整個的一個效能但我比較關心的就是說科偵法的一個執法今年7月份"},{"start":5908.453,"end":5933.844,"text":"特別刑事訴訟法的特殊強制處分的一個專章裡面在條文指出來就是說按照該專章的調查的一個方式取得的資料跟保存還有管理、銷毀、呈報、通知、救濟、監督跟其他相關的一個事項的辦理是司法院會同行政院來制定可是在上週那個刑事訴訟法的特殊處分的執行辦法裡面我看到司法院做了很多的一個功課"},{"start":5934.784,"end":5948.566,"text":"多到19個條文以及研討會至少三次的諮詢會議這個要大大的去做一個肯定這個真的是要大大做一個肯定可是我想請教司法院的就是說這一次你們的執行辦法的主軸到底是什麼"},{"start":5950.476,"end":5971.262,"text":"我們執行辦法除了依照153之10第5項的授權之外我們有重要的就是關於委員會所關心的資料的保存管理跟銷毀怎樣防避這部分我們做了很大的努力包括事中的陳報的警察是事中陳報部分我們都有做相當的約制我簡單的講我比較關切的就是說我們幾乎"},{"start":5976.603,"end":6005.169,"text":"這個部長也很清楚法務部這個地方都非常辛苦我們是很擔心的就是說你不管是對人民侵害是多小的那這個部分沒有授權到最後都會變爛用那我的建議就是說與其你們這個辦法司法院跟行政院這個地方應該就是法務部嘛 不對就是說我們要公佈這個法律的時候你不如在整個研討會的過程裡面把這一些學者專家不同的意見做一件全部都給淡淡出來"},{"start":6006.409,"end":6024.868,"text":"你不要這樣一個耍了公報耍然後媒體或者學者再去寫一篇他們所有的那種文章的渲染力啊或者說團體啊 你們建清也好你搞不好你搞不好大家再來批評一下之後這個逼你 你在這裡開水到水上轉泡齁"},{"start":6026.63,"end":6033.757,"text":"更靠攏贏。」所以我建議這個整個以後這個整個你們在作業的方式裡面可以再細緻一點不同意見我們幹嘛怕人家知道本來在實務上在做研討的時候正反意見本來都會有你會集合那麼多學者的專家來就是要聽他們的意見"},{"start":6047.452,"end":6054.895,"text":"他們講出來他也不怕人家外界知道啊那有些見解都是質地有聲啊只是說你在我們這個行政部門裡面你到底現在去實施會不會有那個能量的問題啊所以我建議喔我這個我真的大膽給你建議這個真的是在過程裡面啊就把那一些不同意見全部就把它做一個揭露好不好"},{"start":6069.602,"end":6089.288,"text":"我還不知道補充你的看法是吧贊同委員的意見那我想我們這個法案就是要廣大意見或是採周延謝謝委員的指教是 你看我們訂這些執法 訂這些指引我們像在我們10月22號23號特殊相處處分的學術交流會裡面 研討會裡面全部都已經有了啊有了以後你就不知道啊像現在我們在討論的時候你馬上 嗯 要不要就很奇怪那學術研討的這個東西哪有什麼不可告人的地方"},{"start":6099.171,"end":6123.269,"text":"這都是專家學者的見解啊聽得懂好不好這個應該做得到吧這個我們學術院長會我們有對外公佈的那資料也有提供有公開版的可以看是啦 我的意思是說像這一些不要等到我們的辦法出來以後啊這樣我們批評了之後還要我去查查出來這樣就不好好不好現在我們的執法已經在預告程序了預告程序應該大家都看得到可以給我們一些指教跟批評好"},{"start":6123.956,"end":6138.42,"text":"那另外我要來就教了我可能要請這個我看今天來的各項內政部警政署署發部還有我們國家通訊傳播委員會署長也有來還有我們行政院打詐指揮中心監管會也請多一些上來一下幾個問題要就教"},{"start":6153.854,"end":6182.651,"text":"我想這一次部長我要請教法務部部長柏丁各個部門上來的我請你們也特別注意聽我們現在柯真法有一個很重要的一個功能就是打詐嘛柏丁我們這個打詐從議程的題目可以看得出來問題出在什麼地方你看現在的詐騙犯罪越來越可怕了把青少年跟外籍移工在很多不知情的情況之下全部都捲出來了捲進來了變成犯罪的加害者或者是一個幫助犯我要來讓你們看一下成效"},{"start":6186.454,"end":6193.418,"text":"各單位也看一下108年42億109年42億111年56億111年73億112年88億今年113年1到10月份就已經274億我要就教各位的就是說我們都經歷過疫情的疫情疫情有所謂的高峰"},{"start":6214.481,"end":6235.31,"text":"不然警政署署長署長署長來來署長那疫情有高峰啊你以為我們這個打詐那個高峰什麼時候會到達你看到這個數字你會不會覺得很可怕現在看起來 現在是七月到八月最高峰你覺得七月到八月是高峰因為八月八月到一百三十幾個月"},{"start":6239.707,"end":6250.193,"text":"你現在到15歲的時候已經274個了11月我看也快結束了嘛11跟12以現在你目前掌握11月份的部分你認為11月份18個了12月份之前到這陣子我還沒把它統計出來"},{"start":6253.786,"end":6260.375,"text":"那也還沒降下來嗎?沒有啦,我那個15分是120票嘛,那那個105分是137票而已,137到120票"},{"start":6267.932,"end":6286.245,"text":"這個是很可怕的一個數字真的是很可怕的數字啦這個其實為什麼這麼多單位要上來內政部負責叫做試詐稍微叫做讓老百姓知道什麼叫做詐騙通傳會負責代表的就是電信的防詐通傳會有來了齁你們叫做防詐嘛對不對齁然後呢通傳會你們叫賭詐對然後呢速發部"},{"start":6296.451,"end":6316.782,"text":"司法部您就防詐對吧然後呢 金管會您就主詐一堆啦我也不知道這這樣到底怎麼樣去做一個分工法務部當然叫做打詐他確實對 叫做懲詐也都有一定的功效我要說的就是說"},{"start":6318.542,"end":6330.572,"text":"這到底安斷了還是算對的站在警察的立場站在金融檢察官的立場就我很努力啊你有犯罪我就破案啊對 這對可是站在整體國家的立場我們的警察機關他有盡責囉努力在做檢察官案子送過來我努力偵辦也起訴囉"},{"start":6345.492,"end":6359.736,"text":"法院的部分當然判決以後人少掉一半人數我是剛才沒有秀出來人數少掉了一半但是我們各單位站在整個國家的立場來看的話為什麼會讓老百姓批評說越打越炸這個我們要檢討這個我們確實要檢討所以我才在問說高峰會在什麼地方疫情都有高峰會降下來你不可以打詐說我們都是高峰高峰高峰一直打一直上去一直上去"},{"start":6375.475,"end":6392.503,"text":"我如果是警政署長我會認為我很努力啊我如果是警政署長我會認為我很努力啊我哉尖發福啊我維護這個社會的治安啊把壞蛋全部都抓起來啊可是站在整個國家的立場這個國家生病了怎麼了怎麼一直上去金額一直這樣累積這個接下來就可能不是警政署跟法務部的問題囉警政署的問題囉"},{"start":6401.198,"end":6425.172,"text":"救我們其他機關的問題,你說通傳會你們有沒有問題?訴發部你們這裡有沒有問題?其他你們這些協助整個國家整理扮演著不同角色的,所以我是覺得不要讓我們的警察官或者警察大家忙翻了以後,然後這個都還降不下來,你說這個是不是成績部長?"},{"start":6426.172,"end":6430.216,"text":"我也認為這個偵破對警察來講他們認為我是成績啊你說譬如說我們基層在棄毒吧對不對齁 抓到了好多毒品啊我還要阻絕在境外全部都破貨可是如果那個量每一年一直增加一直增加那也很可怕怎麼樣去防堵就可能就在前面了這個"},{"start":6449.656,"end":6464.544,"text":"來,我們行政院今天去你們的防詐中心的指揮官有來嗎?來,我要聽你,你有什麼選擇沒有來?這大家都很認真在幫你倒卡手喔,你做指揮官的人你會看完?好,跟委員報告,這個詐騙它是一個產業鏈"},{"start":6467.659,"end":6482.619,"text":"他不是一個單一的個別的現象所以我們現在在做就是說把這個產業鏈阻斷那所以從問題是不阻沒斷跟委員報告我們現在那個打詐四法通過之後11月底"},{"start":6483.24,"end":6499.249,"text":"我們現在有11個執法要上路那上路以後呢在訴發部這邊他們會針對四大平台然後把前端的詐欺有關的資訊把它堵住那堵住之後我們後面民眾我們要降低他接觸詐騙訊息的這樣的一個機率"},{"start":6502.091,"end":6522.861,"text":"那再透過我們後端我們在查緝的部分把這個有關犯罪集團的部分把他查緝到案所以我們是從上中下游分別下手這我都可以說這我都很會說我如果是警政署長或是我刑事警察局長我會跟你說我就性質這麼好我都會破案我如果法務部長說我下面的檢察官大家都這麼拚命"},{"start":6530.236,"end":6558.877,"text":"掠奪我的起訴加重求情我老司法院會對法官說那個來的案件我們就把他判下去我們就把他重判好三個機關都這樣講只是站在老百姓的立場說你這是在做什麼你整個責政團隊在幹什麼已經警政署這個地方他負到責任了法務部他負到責任了司法院他負到責任了那其他該誰的"},{"start":6560.404,"end":6565.731,"text":"我們就一個一個把它拆開你一個執政團隊是好多輪子好多機器大家共同來運轉所以你講這個 我知道你要講這個我告訴你這幾年都在討論這個問題"},{"start":6577.128,"end":6599.018,"text":"都在討論這個問題喔政府就是整個來看喔我們要加強的空間非常非常大喔我為什麼前面談課真法再來跟你秀出這個數字是要告訴你大家都很努力大家都人仰馬翻數字也都很漂亮但是這個很漂亮的數字的背後就要告訴我們我們的政府機關努力還不夠"},{"start":6602.563,"end":6630.709,"text":"報告委員我們會持續我們現在有列管指標那在今年底之前行政院會公布新的打詐綱領2.0那麼把這個指標全部列出來之後行政院會對各部會目前手上所有的工具跟它執行的結果我們會去做列管所以這個部分跟委員報告我們明年開始我們在這個現在的數字呈現上我們有信心它會下降你認為下個月就會下降"},{"start":6632.12,"end":6655.299,"text":"跟委員報告我們11月底公布執法有工具之後我們從下個月到明年這段期間我們是下降期很好部長、署長工具都給你了我期待十月份就已經是高峰了我看到下個月的時候或者下下個月這個議題在我們司法法制委員會一定是大家會關注的一個議題嘛"},{"start":6656.653,"end":6667.822,"text":"我們很期待現在是高峰接下來慢慢緩降因為資訊都是公開透明的嘛這個確實啦其他的部會齁各有所思的人你們要好好去想一想每一個部門雖然人多啦建制派打擊犯罪建制派打擊犯罪"},{"start":6678.399,"end":6694.85,"text":"司法院、我們的法院、依法審判其他的事情齁你們這裡的其他在發揮很大的功能該給你們的法律也給你們的該給的武器也給的該給的預算我們一毛錢都沒少要加油好不好好謝謝請回謝謝委員"},{"start":6698.002,"end":6710.09,"text":"好 謝謝鍾委員那我們先做會議的程序預告稍後在鍾委員嘉賓訓導完畢後休息5分鐘那我們接下來請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":6726.479,"end":6732.522,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我們先請馬次長跟警政署的長署長好,次長、署長早好,我們今天"},{"start":6744.738,"end":6773.056,"text":"這個針對今年通過的這個打詐四法要配合明年1月即將啟動的打詐綱領2.0無非是希望能夠透過同步的這個強化法制面還有組織面技術面來有效打擊這個相關的詐欺案那防止民眾受騙的案例一再發生我剛剛拜聽了我們早上的這個質詢我們在一整年的這個詐騙的相關這個案件目前看起來"},{"start":6774.338,"end":6779.769,"text":"一整年下來都超過一千億以上也要避免這個民眾"},{"start":6781.772,"end":6807.383,"text":"再次受騙也要避免一些民眾因為不知情被詐騙集團當作是犯罪的一個工具從今天報告的題目也反映到目前移工和少年涉入詐欺的數量有增加的情況不但容易蒙受無謂的損失甚至被詐騙集團看準來吸收進而控制成為共犯這對於政府打擊犯罪"},{"start":6809.584,"end":6820.315,"text":"這個詐騙來說是必須盡速跨部會的來整合來防堵這個破口其中我想先針對這個外籍移工設詐或是受騙的情形來就較相關的部會"},{"start":6822.041,"end":6834.367,"text":"臺灣目前大約有80萬名的外籍移工從世界各地來臺灣打拼賺錢但是在臺的這些移工涉詐的人數從111年的382人到今年已經超過700人"},{"start":6838.829,"end":6862.256,"text":"那這裡我想先就教我們的次長對於這個詐騙集團是如何來威逼利誘、吸收移工包括過去我們曾經聽說是針對這些經濟壓力或是可能以毒品、藥物加以控制的方式來誘使外籍移工去協助他們從事不法的行為"},{"start":6863.876,"end":6885.541,"text":"這些手段和管道可能會與時俱進我看現在的詐騙集團比較多是用一些比較新穎的方式我想請教市長他們是透過什麼樣的方式和管道我們的主管機關有沒有確實掌握這些相關的事證"},{"start":6886.98,"end":6911.77,"text":"跟委員報告我們在目前查緝到的個案裡面我們分析外籍移工絕大多數他如果涉及詐欺犯罪的案件都是透過他的同鄉管道互相來介紹因為他的同鄉管道裡面之前有人從事於詐欺犯罪那就在誘使這個移工尤其是我們陶藝的移工因為他有經濟上的一個需求"},{"start":6912.19,"end":6933.883,"text":"所以他就會把他的門號跟帳戶交出來交給這個詐騙集團來利用那本身也可能成為車手所以在移工這塊我們除了多語化的宣導之外另外就是說透過包括勞動部的合作我們希望能夠從他們的一些團體來下手希望能夠讓這個部分降低"},{"start":6934.448,"end":6955.067,"text":"好 那聽起來我們也是有這個相對應的措施在進行當中那我也希望說這個部分可能要加緊腳步那其中剛剛那個次長你也說到這個門號的部分有一些這個犯罪集團他會去利用這些人頭帳戶外籍移工的人頭帳戶"},{"start":6956.961,"end":6975.086,"text":"來取得他們的這個電信號碼幫助他們來洗錢和詐欺的這個案件那尤其這個人頭帳戶的部分有可能在他們要出盡錢這個外籍移工就有用高價來賣給這個詐騙集團這個應該在坊間都聽得到甚至還有這個一個行情價目表在那邊"},{"start":6982.708,"end":6991.981,"text":"那我想目前我們銀行是不是能夠及時掌握到移民署和勞動部所提供的這類型的相關資訊"},{"start":7001.024,"end":7018.611,"text":"跟委員報告我們在移民署的部分我們有提供包括通傳會跟金管會他移工本身的一個入出境的一個資料的借接那這部分我們也透過各自委員會同意那這個符合我們各自法的規定"},{"start":7019.551,"end":7045.305,"text":"那這個屆屆之後呢移工一旦離開台灣他的門號跟帳戶我們就會由金管會跟這個通傳會來做門號跟帳戶的管制是通知電信業者停號還是如何去管控停號嘛直接停號就好因為他既然移工已經離開台灣就就表示他這個門號就沒有用了嘛好那對於這個電信門號的這個詐騙來說齁"},{"start":7048.587,"end":7076.802,"text":"有關電信業者KYC的這個管理是不是能夠落實我看剛剛那個市長您也大概有掌握了那包括這個9月份給NCC開通查詢外籍的這個人士入出境的資訊能否和電信業者的這個之間來一個合作我想這還是要拜託我們內政部這邊跟相關電信業者有一個緊密的合作那許多這個失聯的移工"},{"start":7077.862,"end":7102.167,"text":"是我們政府難以掌握的一個族群到目前9月份我們全台灣已經超過8萬8千人的移工受到詐騙集團的鎖定有可能使這些失聯的移工被較高的酬金誘使從事不法甚至反而成為被詐騙的一個對象"},{"start":7104.568,"end":7119.107,"text":"那礙於身份沒辦法報警或是尋求其他協助那對於失聯移工設詐或是被詐的情形能否來自源頭管理或是其他的因應措施我想這個部分還是請次長大概說明一下"},{"start":7120.18,"end":7134.322,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在在失業移工的部分因為主要的原因是因為台灣的經濟環境他如果在這個外面的所謂的黑工市場打工他的工作機會多"},{"start":7135.724,"end":7150.28,"text":"那酬勞也比他原本的這個工作可能高所以就變成是誘使他失聯一個主要的一個理由那我們現在在查緝的部分移民署我們有在加強所有的查緝的力道並沒有停下來"},{"start":7151.581,"end":7170.273,"text":"至於移工本身涉詐的部分我們現在在查緝的過程裡面我們會從每一個個案去回溯他涉詐的原因跟他背後的集團所以這部分我們在移民署跟警政署我們都有配合雙方把這個資訊我們有做交流好"},{"start":7174.076,"end":7188.305,"text":"另外就是對於我們要提升試詐的能力有可能會減少受騙的情形來產生包括透過各種傳播管道來製作不同形式的宣傳隨時可以更新防詐的資訊"},{"start":7189.286,"end":7205.561,"text":"例如勞動部有製作相關的圖卡包括有英文、泰文、越南文、印尼文等版本移民署還有加入緬甸文、柬埔寨文其他部會則不一定有提供相關語言版本"},{"start":7206.181,"end":7223.069,"text":"但如果都是為了要讓外籍人士能夠獲取最新的相關防詐的宣導資訊那這個部分我想應該由內政部來主責是不是可以來整合讓防詐的文宣有更多語言版本能夠更完備"},{"start":7224.755,"end":7241.149,"text":"我們這個是不是移民署可以移民署對對對對對跟委員報告這是我們行政局會把詐騙的各種的手法就是多個語言提供提供給各相關這個部會來做一個一個試詐的一個選擇"},{"start":7243.03,"end":7257.763,"text":"好那我還是請我們指揮中心指揮中心這邊跟我們警政署這邊來加強這個相關的這個演繹讓我們四詐的這種宣傳能夠更加的友善那另外"},{"start":7258.203,"end":7280.157,"text":"對於這個國內我們少年涉詐的情形也越來越嚴重近年來已經查獲上萬人我們各級學校現在都應該有這個相關的這些法治教育有向這些學生來宣導切勿這個以身釋法但先前我們警方的這個統計數字明知違法仍然要從事詐騙行為的"},{"start":7281.958,"end":7296.389,"text":"這個犯案少年佔了七成以上這部分顯然我們的法治教育的部分出現了警訊有必要再進行研議和改善那對於在學校裡面上課的同學我們或許比較能夠掌握情況"},{"start":7296.949,"end":7311.109,"text":"但對於在校園以外的地方更是能夠誘使青少年接觸詐騙行為的地方我們應該要如何來防堵詐團對於青少年的接觸以降低我們這些少年處罰的機會"},{"start":7319.22,"end":7327.182,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個少年去觸犯這個這個詐團但是少年可能是學生那現在我們發現到這個"},{"start":7330.744,"end":7341.354,"text":"從111年大概剛剛這裡面到少年去犯詐欺犯罪我們大概有380幾個人112年有700多人那113年到12年大概也有700多這個趨勢是上升的那這裡面看起來就是說他的這個案件裡面"},{"start":7349.361,"end":7374.097,"text":"大概都是以人頭或是帳戶的居多那怎麼要去做防堵呢?我們第一個就是要去做一個市長的一個宣導那這個宣導的部分我們特別強調就是說你不要認為你是少年是沒有責任你家長要負連帶的這個責任讓這一個他犯罪之後能夠有所有所嚇阻那第二部分就是說對於這些"},{"start":7376.559,"end":7378.04,"text":"高風險的青少年,我們會加強了解與查解。」"},{"start":7395.596,"end":7415.075,"text":"是不是屬於這個少年犯罪的這個教唆者我們會加強去做幕後集團的一個做這樣的一個查集那我們不管是校園內跟校園外或者是私學、中輟生什麼這些我們全方面會來做一個一個了解跟解決"},{"start":7415.836,"end":7441.731,"text":"好 謝謝署長那也謝謝次長我希望說我們各部會各部會我們對於這個剛剛早上到現在許多委員在關心的我們不管是市詐還有堵詐、防詐、阻詐、懲詐相關的這些部會應該要如何來分工如何來落實我相信這才是最重要確實讓我們台灣被詐騙的情形看能不能"},{"start":7442.411,"end":7461.545,"text":"快速來降低。」我相信這是全民所希望也是所有民眾最期待的也可以確實來保護我們所有人民生命財產的一個安全以上好謝謝好謝謝那我們接下來請羅志強委員代理主席"},{"start":7476.829,"end":7493.737,"text":"請吳宗憲委員我們麻煩李廳長、鄭部長、張署長李廳長、鄭部長、張署長還有金管會政局局黃副局長有請黃副局長"},{"start":7508.854,"end":7534.55,"text":"待會我等一下有一些問題還是要麻煩像速發部或NCC你們不用上來但是稍微也要了解一下我的問題還有就是馬次長也要麻煩您先不用上台那前面我可能先提幾個問題待會我會再切入今天的主題我先請教李廳長因為"},{"start":7538.333,"end":7549.243,"text":"因為剛剛黃國昌委員及謝榮介委員都一直有提到死刑的部分那我的因為我之前有提出了幾個問題也是一直在呼籲而且我已經呼籲兩個月了我相信說"},{"start":7551.414,"end":7570.409,"text":"因為您是刑警法官出身一定非常清楚整個狀況那因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師、側翼甚至以前還當過法官他除了他對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點或我們在蔣東他在蔣西但是呢他講的那些東西會被很多媒體去誤導人民"},{"start":7571.209,"end":7598.073,"text":"像他一直講有人就一直講說什麼積壓期間可以重新齊算這大法官講問題這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中那他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題或者是什麼原因我不知道但是誤導人民是不對我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員都應該有個義務要告訴人民真相那我因為這幾個問題已經我一再公開了也不會是突襲你們那我們就再請教一下"},{"start":7599.773,"end":7626.649,"text":"您是刑警法官出身的一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年二十幾年請問一下他而且都已經是判決確定查完的案子那有什麼篡證的問題嗎然後第二個如果他今天說你讓我出去我也同意被限制出境我也同意帶電子腳鐐你要我每天去派出所報到那這個有逃亡甚至他在裡面關了20年他根本沒有錢逃亡啊那請問一下他有"},{"start":7628.11,"end":7648.303,"text":"閹滅證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎?請問刑庭法官我們就不講個案了如果不加以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話關了二三十年之後案件已經確定了你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難"},{"start":7649.404,"end":7670.243,"text":"他自己說逃亡部分那可能就是人性的問題啊如果我犯的是一個重罪也許我沒有錢因為有錢並不代表我不會逃亡我懂所以聽著我剛剛有說他說我願意你給我限制出境我願意帶電子腳鐐我願意每天到派出所簽到三次這個都是實務常見的嘛那他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去沒有錢坐車出去"},{"start":7672.725,"end":7688.625,"text":"那請問一下他有重大的逃亡可能性嗎這個還是要個案的判斷因為他跟其他家庭的連結或是其他的情形我可以接受你這個答案但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛"},{"start":7689.105,"end":7714.898,"text":"所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛那當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候變成被告身份唯一能夠關他的就是羈押就只有這個方式但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理完全不符合101條那你說反復十字之餘嗎101之1也沒有啊關裡面關20年你怎麼證明他反復十字之餘所以現行我國羈押的"},{"start":7715.658,"end":7723.686,"text":"要件這三七位有可能我不說全部好了啦就有可能很多人根本不符合所以這個麻煩司法院注意第二個"},{"start":7725.031,"end":7749.368,"text":"我們羈押一個審計就是15個月很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月請問庭長有沒有可能這個委員所講的這部分的確是有可能但是我們也在努力我們就是寄望法官能夠積極努力但是實務上面一個審計審理超過15個月的比比皆是我想刑警法官不可能否認這個事實對吧"},{"start":7750.709,"end":7765.854,"text":"如果是羈押中的案件的話行政法官都會優先處理對我懂但是有可能會審理超過15個月這個是可能性的對不對就通案來講我們盡量不要讓他超過15個月對但是是有可能我們只能盡量不要所以這邊就是問題了那再請教那個再請教廳長一個問題"},{"start":7774.062,"end":7797.351,"text":"如果檢查總長非常上訴成功那這些人會從收容人的身份轉換為被告對吧沒錯那現在我們能夠關他們我們是叫做收容執行槍決前的收容所以我們可以關著他那當他變回普通法院審理的被告的時候必須羈押才有可能把他關起來對吧是"},{"start":7798.331,"end":7812.974,"text":"那收容到最高法院認為非常上述有理由讓他們變成被告的身份到高院法官裁定羈押這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期他如果說我要回家怎麼辦"},{"start":7814.316,"end":7833.867,"text":"這個部分我們據我所了解在民國94年的時候一個台非制124號一個也是因為憲判那當時是憲法解釋582號解釋所引起的原因事實因此而提起的非常上述當時教科法院把最"},{"start":7835.208,"end":7849.931,"text":"非常上述的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審的判決一併撤銷掉當時也有做當時做身份的轉換他把它轉換成再押的被告那由二審來接押在當時的1994年的處理情形這是有前例的"},{"start":7850.912,"end":7875.889,"text":"所以說這個問題就是所以我今天我是點出所有的專業的問題我相信剛剛我提到的三個都是專業的問題那我今天要提出來我是非常希望而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們他總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題你們都可以打聯我沒有問題所以您剛剛講的就是有潛力可以依循嘛"},{"start":7876.269,"end":7898.093,"text":"那是不是我們將來如果萬一那個假總長他有提出非常上述而且成功的話是不是你們就必須依照你說有曾經有因為我還沒有看到這個資料如果有那一定要照這樣做如果沒有那就會發生照我剛剛說的會有幾個小時的空窗這庭長您認同嗎那我們據我所了解"},{"start":7898.553,"end":7910.279,"text":"目前的最高法院、檢察署這邊還有高院、省級這邊也有在做適當的一些了解跟模擬跟研議我們也提供了相關的資料在94年的相關例子給他們做參考"},{"start":7912.918,"end":7939.306,"text":"高院審理的話那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎?不是不是 一定是二審法官裁定羈押假設要羈押的時候這個當時裁定之後由二審法官來接押但是在三審的時候他的身份已經做了轉換我們從判決書上面所記載的他是寫在押被告事實上他這個是一個判決確定執行中的被告但是在三審的判決裡面已經把它改成因為撤銷"},{"start":7941.647,"end":7952.094,"text":"撤銷確定判決之後他身份已經做了轉換他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人而且轉換成是在押被告因為所謂的程序的復活那是誰預知是在押被告"},{"start":7955.804,"end":7979.529,"text":"誰遇知他為詐騙?那誰遇知羈押?二審遇知羈押他身份回到在押被告的身份所以最高法院的法官同時認為非常上述有理由同一個時間瞬間高院法官裁定羈押是這樣嗎?不是不是他會把卷證交給二審法院那我的問題就在這裡了最高法院認為他身份回歸到被告到"},{"start":7980.649,"end":7990.886,"text":"二審的法官裁定基拉如果有五分鐘的空檔他跑出去誰有理由攔他五分鐘就好當然他當時是在兼執行的人犯"},{"start":7992.586,"end":8016.335,"text":"當時在在監執行他轉換成變成在押在押的身份之後他還沒釋放執行我懂你的意思但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯他有核發過指揮書有送監執行但是在本案他叫做執行槍決前的收容我知道執行槍決前的收容的收容人變成是被告那這個中間"},{"start":8019.106,"end":8041.033,"text":"這時間差怎麼辦沒關係如果你們要以那一件為基本要來思考怎麼樣去研擬這個新的做法沒問題但是我的責任我是政治人物我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦因為我剛說的如果一個的一個變換身份的決定權是最高法院法官一個是否裁定羈押是高院法官兩個會不會有幾分鐘"},{"start":8043.374,"end":8066.363,"text":"一分鐘的落差好不好那一分鐘落差被告要跑就可以跑你任何人不能攔他這個部分我們也大概有研議過啦二審法院在釋放之前他可以就通知被告到庭如果他不到庭可能要用想進行拘提的方式來做處理那你通知會有你通知要送達你要合法送達嘛就到監所去送達不是"},{"start":8068.799,"end":8083.594,"text":"我照委員的意思啦這部分我們會依循協定我跟你講啦最高法院認為他已經案件已經撤銷他就不是收容身份嘛那不是收容身份他就是我讓你門打開我要回家那你不能限制他啊我們沒有法定拘束他的自由"},{"start":8085.296,"end":8104.096,"text":"因為聽長你是刑庭法官你一定懂我在講什麼那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼所以這三個問題再麻煩你然後我再請教那個部長部長現在還有幾個問題啦就是說因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年的規定"},{"start":8106.579,"end":8126.551,"text":"他們可能會之前已經積壓過很長一段時間了所以他們應該可以折抵蠻久了那這樣子有可能他們假設將來被判無期徒刑的話可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊那他們現在關在裡面那些死犯基本上表現都很良好那這個的話是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑"},{"start":8135.427,"end":8160.398,"text":"即使是可以折抵嗎?對,依法可以折抵因為它可以折抵嘛那這部分我想這部分如果說還沒有修法的話當然是可以我們可以從嚴審核嘛從嚴審核那另外我想我們目前在修法這個修法我們把那個重大的特殊的暴力的這犯罪包括故意殺人我懂部長這塊我知道這塊我知道但是呢我必須跟您講一件事"},{"start":8165.407,"end":8183.82,"text":"不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得所以你要今天修一個法要求到溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定我想也許有困難除非你對這37位死刑犯法務部司法院你們提出一個專法就是針對這37位死刑犯因為這是我想破頭腦想到的大家就用專法去解決"},{"start":8184.801,"end":8201.433,"text":"部長因為我從頭到尾我都不跟你們談政治我只談法律的專業那有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防那我覺得我們不甩他我們就談法律所以今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前"},{"start":8202.293,"end":8228.61,"text":"羈押的期間他已經快要可以申請假釋了那只要快要可以申請假釋那將來假釋的評斷標準你當然可以從嚴審核但是就有可能他們假釋出獄的這個機率就跑出來了我今天要點出的是這個問題部長還有另外一個將來你們可能會面對到就是因為收容這個行為將來以前是為了槍決前所以收容他所以沒有折抵刑期這問題反正都要槍斃了"},{"start":8229.531,"end":8246.792,"text":"但是呢在未來因為這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話那一定會很多人權團體出來說那收容期間也是限制他自由為什麼不能折禮行起他的形式跟羈押會很類似因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛"},{"start":8248.614,"end":8269.379,"text":"但是現在變成這樣了 變成收容會變成一個新問題所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體突然跟大家吵說他收容期間 有人收容十幾年了可以要記錄刑期的話那這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的這個計算這個是法務部將來一定會面對到"},{"start":8275.08,"end":8282.147,"text":"那我跟兩位報告其實我剛剛提到了這五個點全部是專業的論述的點再麻煩你們能夠"},{"start":8283.915,"end":8312.467,"text":"禮卿﹚那如果不禮卿的話這五個點都是這些人將來可能回到社會的可能性都在這裡我們是不認為是會回到社會部長我跟您談法律你跟我談不可能這個是刑事通常救濟者程序這個有別嘛那大概部長你今天講的話全國的檢察官法官都在看您是我檢察官的大前輩大學長我現在依法跟你論法然後你跟我說"},{"start":8313.527,"end":8333.039,"text":"不可能啊如果這樣子的話因為像那個像剛才委員有提到就是有這個人權團體這邊我想這部分這是在執行前的一個縮容這個這個目前法律目前法律沒有記錄不能折抵嘛對那那個憲判意思8號也是說我們修監律行刑法"},{"start":8335.34,"end":8357.25,"text":"所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗所以才會出了一個憲判制解決的問題比創造的問題創造的問題比解決問題多出很多啦就是這樣那我從實務我光是稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的馬上要解決而且每一個都是法律問題"},{"start":8358.01,"end":8385.867,"text":"每一個都可以讓法律系的學生或老師可以好好的討論的一個問題啦那部長我知道你也有你的難處你不方便講一些話但我在這邊就必須講這些就是司法實務上面的專業問題必須要解決否則即使只有5分鐘的落差的空窗期被告都可以要求我現在要離開他跑給你追或是像我們剛剛講的根本就不符合我國現行法101或101之1的羈押要件啊"},{"start":8387.047,"end":8409.107,"text":"那你怎麼押他?法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押?這都是問題那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚或是我是那些死刑犯的律師我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了我可以引出一大堆的判決判例來告訴你為什麼這個東西不能羈押以前的法官都不押憑什麼你現在認為這個人有逃亡之虞所以這都是問題啦"},{"start":8411.847,"end":8414.31,"text":"我希望提的幾個東西跟大家講一下那個檢察署署長就麻煩那個"},{"start":8425.509,"end":8453.223,"text":"要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個部分好嗎然後另外就是說"},{"start":8453.923,"end":8481.287,"text":"因為這些超商代收的貨款他們都是跟那個通常是跟資訊科技公司合作那你們去調資料兩三個禮拜都公司都還沒有回覆那以現在狀況以前如果他超商撥款給給那個業者的話馬上就轉走那如果依照現在這個所知的時間這麼要這麼長民眾的錢最不會跟那個署長報告一件事情"},{"start":8481.947,"end":8484.369,"text":"我跟你們報告一件事他就是利用大家這個心態"},{"start":8495.834,"end":8514.794,"text":"九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導"},{"start":8516.355,"end":8540.756,"text":"就是如果不明包裹你要去搜像我也搜過阿他是寄我弟弟的名字阿那我去幫我弟弟代收阿應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦對對類似像這樣先做這樣的確認先宣導再麻煩你們能夠宣導因為因為會有很多這種黑數大家覺得一千多塊他不想浪費時間去去報案那還有就是那個"},{"start":8543.258,"end":8568.161,"text":"政期局我一個建議就是你們那個都一起好了我一起講好了因為時間的關係數位因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是那個虛擬貨幣那虛擬貨幣目前你們有來聲明的聲報的是只有26家業者但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣的"},{"start":8569.202,"end":8591.23,"text":"交易都是國外的交易所那你們完全管不到那這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦好不好不然完全沒有管所以我在這邊就直接講因為下禮拜我跟張志文跟林沛講我們會開一個打詐的記者會那我們會想看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來因為民眾不在乎被告判多久他只想錢要不要的回來"},{"start":8592.33,"end":8611.386,"text":"然後我們也希望說那個金管會能夠在打詐專法你們是那個負責這個金融聯防機制的那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢然後上次那個金管會主委有跟我說報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位"},{"start":8612.246,"end":8614.607,"text":"不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具"},{"start":8628.772,"end":8652.171,"text":"的業者請理解一下還有就是指揮中心指揮中心有說到去年6月到今年10月要回了24億的被詐騙金額但是你們要給我一個資料就是說這24億是被告都付完了嗎因為據我所知以及我以前在失誤的經驗非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過"},{"start":8653.052,"end":8672.336,"text":"所以這24億是真的都講付完了嗎或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來就沒有拿沒有繼續支付那被害人還是被騙然後等於是被第二次騙而且這一次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人因為當事人以為有政府的保證被告就會還我錢結果和解書簽了以後"},{"start":8675.011,"end":8699.123,"text":"他還兩期之後全部拿不回來那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的所以這個東西到底拿回多少錢也必須給我一個報告而不是給我說一個24億要回來因為這是騙人的這絕對我跟你講我在15屆待過不要拿這個來騙我最後就是我要提一個"},{"start":8702.273,"end":8722.498,"text":"明年的預算的部分因為我們這是預算會期就是預算的部分我們人民去年被騙了88億然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億所以我希望是有所作為不然88加73國人被騙了161億"},{"start":8726.619,"end":8755.136,"text":"就變成你編的這些預算國人被第二次騙錢啦就之前網路很多人在笑因為看到提73億啊然後有人留言就是哈哈又被騙了那個73億所以不要讓人民有這個想法尤其是那個警政署因為你們的那個花了很多錢6.6億的分析系統還有很多5億的那個一些硬體設備當然我知道這個是因應修法的關係但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為"},{"start":8756.096,"end":8762.199,"text":"否則就像我剛說的 原來我們被騙了161億不是88億好 謝謝各位 謝謝好 謝謝 我們麻煩下一位請鐘嘉斌委員那因為我們剛"},{"start":8778.978,"end":8802.441,"text":"徐巧欣委員我們剛剛有宣告一個就是在中嘉賓委員執行完畢之後休息五分鐘很早就已經有講了還是你們兩個要對的好 謝謝主席那我們是不是有請政部長法務部政部長"},{"start":8806.57,"end":8820.64,"text":"委員好部長好今天雖然我等一下要問的跟這個調查局有關但是因為現在大家對於這個霸凌的事件呢非常的關心所以呢我還是找我們主管機關這邊法務部來做一個詢問"},{"start":8823.402,"end":8837.999,"text":"因為呢我們這邊又接獲了關於這個調查局很多調查局的這個同仁他們感受到這個霸凌的世界那我覺得呢有必要盡快的來揭露那這件事情呢"},{"start":8838.399,"end":8858.917,"text":"最早發生在2022年的時候我在直播裡面就有講到新竹調查站的主任林維成也就是當初把余政煌的烤雞打成已等的這一位新竹調查站的主任那他們當時就是在新竹市調站裡面他們有做整個相關的一個"},{"start":8859.918,"end":8873.574,"text":"就在調查局的人員裡面有做相關自己的一個自評就是說我們的主管有沒有霸凌的行為那裡面呢就有包含寫道自己愛應酬又不想被外人當色函就拗站裡的同仁幫忙開車擋酒"},{"start":8876.798,"end":8903.384,"text":"同仁不克出席之後就遭林大主任罵N小時不給回家這種人還能畏居高職、前景堪憂?然後也提到每逢喝醉酒以後就會去執日官室騷擾執日官、辱罵副主任、辱罵據點平時以辱罵幹部為樂所以當時他去霸凌了余政煌他們調查局的學長"},{"start":8904.364,"end":8933.041,"text":"然後還有2021年的9月他們在跟竹科的廠商參敘的時候只因為不滿當天的職域調查官沒有把他安排到主桌所以就在晚上深夜把調查官跟副主任雙雙叫到請示怒罵從晚間9點罵到隔天的凌晨3點整整6個小時還有10月份、12月份攜帶酒精飲料到職域官室林維成卻表示說"},{"start":8934.542,"end":8953.054,"text":"職業官是喝酒沒關係我是主任所以這個調查官後來礙於淩為城市上級就作罷了也曾經一度驚動督察到場勸架有打架的行為儘管這個事件有上報最後不了了之當時在2022年的時候調查局表示針對相關的檢舉已經請督察處介入調查了"},{"start":8957.276,"end":8962.605,"text":"那我想要請問一下2022年就介入調查的大林事件後來的懲處結果為何跟委員報告這一件"},{"start":8967.746,"end":8986.018,"text":"根據調查局他們的處理的確是由督察處來主動來立案做一個調查後來調查後的確是有不適任的情形後來也調離回主管職務了他調離在112年2月4號調任行業調查處的主任秘書"},{"start":8993.342,"end":9011,"text":"他那時候後來是先有調離那個新竹市市長那後來他也被處分了那他現在人在哪裡這部分我不清楚那個現在的職務好那你要回去問調查局因為呢好我們下一張"},{"start":9012.967,"end":9025.936,"text":"看一下同一篇下一張因為呢這個是當時齁這個所有調查局的人員呢對於齁包含是新竹市調查站等等的做的一些評價因為就是在講霸凌的問題喔那這我剛剛講過再下一張"},{"start":9028.528,"end":9052.482,"text":"這個是有更多包含臺北市的調查處宜蘭雲林都有會後我會提供相關的資料給法務部跟調查局也就是說因為卓榮泰院長說7天內要調查完所有我們政府部門相關的霸凌事件但是其實我們調查局的人員他們平常每年都有自填問卷在針對長官有沒有做霸凌相關的事情做評價"},{"start":9053.402,"end":9076.073,"text":"所以相關的這個證據其實都在上面那要請部長跟我們的調查局回去做進一步的調查然後今天為什麼會談這件事情就是因為當這個勞動部的事情發生之後我們看到剛才我所說的這位林維成他過去是新竹市調站的主任他依然固武那導致我們在調查局的群組裡面看到的是什麼包含呢"},{"start":9083.277,"end":9100.378,"text":"你看看看我們洋洋灑灑的獎懲規定發現幹部只有在督導下級不利時會被懲處沒有懲處督導過大的也提到了當時這件事情有承認霸凌但是呢後來也沒有上新聞然後呢大家都在問如果"},{"start":9101.419,"end":9119.474,"text":"勞動部的這名這個往生者是以霸凌送檢調那霸凌檢調的人要把他送到哪裡甚至呢大家都在講說現在盛傳這名這個凌維成主任成主任打算呢要被升為副處長那你看到這個整個"},{"start":9122.216,"end":9143.7,"text":"都是昨天在調查局的群組裡面所討論的內容然後還講到就是說呢他到現在都還是在被圈選為輔導員所以如果您剛剛講說他曾經有霸凌的紀錄有遭到處分而且呢他是這個不適應的那為什麼我們調查局又要勾選他擔任輔導員呢"},{"start":9146.933,"end":9153.759,"text":"這部分我們再去瞭解再去瞭解 那什麼時候可以給我們回覆?7天內?你現在現在剩下6天因為呢卓榮泰部長說卓榮泰院長說了7天之內要給答案跟回覆嘛那我現在很具體的告訴你昨天整個調查局的群組都在講這位林維成他現在有可能再被外傳說還要去升副處長"},{"start":9169.813,"end":9178.946,"text":"而且實際上都還有霸凌的行為那過去您剛也說了他的案件被調查之後是不適任的也有處分的結果他現在竟然還被圈選為輔導員到處在輔導我們所謂調查局的人員"},{"start":9185.194,"end":9190.418,"text":"所以這個部分要請這個我們法務部的部長回去之後要調查清楚那不要讓這些過去曾經有霸凌雖然被處分但現在還繼續實施霸凌的人還可以當輔導員繼續以輔導的身份那再次的霸凌我們調查局的人員引起這麼這麼多裡面有1500個調查局的成員所有人都在罵1500個您可以看到這個地方有1500個調查局的成員在裡面"},{"start":9215.534,"end":9234.767,"text":"裡面一大堆人都是針對這一位林維成來做批評說他有霸凌的事實所以請法務部一定要回去謹慎的再度重啟調查而不是過去調查完了就覺得好像已經沒事了因為這個是持續中的霸凌案件可以做到嗎"},{"start":9235.909,"end":9261.156,"text":"這部分我再請調查局來處理好 那請問需要多久時間回覆我們盡快盡快應該是六天因為這個卓榮泰部長院長的這個規定所以麻煩六天之內給我們初步的回覆因為卓榮泰院長在公開的場合說每一個特會裡面有霸凌情況要在七天之內做回覆昨天是第一天今天是第二天所以你們只剩下六天的時間麻煩在六天的時間按"},{"start":9263.217,"end":9284.714,"text":"卓榮泰院長的要求根本不是我要求的如果是我個人要求會給你們一個月但是呢今天是卓榮泰院長要求在七天之內每一個部會跟局處都要調查出有沒有職場霸凌的問題所以請你們在六天之內給我們初步的回覆今天是今天我才知道是今天來起算入就是七天"},{"start":9284.994,"end":9294.481,"text":"不是嘛 那左翁派院長意思不是這樣你自己去跟院長講不是 這個事情你自己去跟院長講這不是我說的如果所有人都是知道說起算七天的話那左翁派院長昨天他何必講這些話呢所以這不是我說的我說 如果是我會給你一個月我昨天才踢爆了外交部也有相關的霸凌我是給他們一個月的"},{"start":9308.112,"end":9319.376,"text":"結果下午我就聽到卓榮泰院長說7天之內全部的公家機關都要調查完畢所以不好意思你們真的剩6天不要怪我 要怪 怪院長好不好 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一個我們請鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":9338.502,"end":9359.402,"text":"主席、在堂委員、先進列席、內政部機關署長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生先請內政部的馬次長還有中署長還有速發部的陳副署長那後面再請法務部的鄭部長那在開始之前謝謝我們昭偉還是要跟昭偉表達一下"},{"start":9360.444,"end":9374.522,"text":"因為這次我們打詐當中訴發部相當重要那我也知道以我們委員會的慣例大概非本委員會的部會的首長是不會來所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受但是訴發部居然只是副署長"},{"start":9375.182,"end":9399.38,"text":"那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢"},{"start":9400.717,"end":9415.927,"text":"那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把那個平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題"},{"start":9417.168,"end":9434.503,"text":"馬次長非常重要你看嘛我們目前移工大概在跟犯罪的有兩個關聯一個是移工本身尤其失聯移工他可能是犯罪者下手的對象但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的一個犯罪者你同意嗎完全同意"},{"start":9435.003,"end":9462.903,"text":"那麼對於這些失聯的移工為什麼他很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢因為他失聯的意思是什麼他逃避主管機關的查緝對不對所以他就是進入了地下通訊也是會隊也是那請問你認為目前以你來評估我們移民署專勤對他的外勤查緝業務有多少可以透過AI來取代又有多少是醫療用有經驗的人才可以"},{"start":9463.749,"end":9485.08,"text":"跟委員報告我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣好署長你同意部長、次長這樣認知嗎是同意好我們現在看好但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊查緝這些失聯移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊"},{"start":9486.661,"end":9513.971,"text":"要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對 有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個"},{"start":9515.379,"end":9537.759,"text":"市長你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎總共齁前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛市長"},{"start":9538.8,"end":9566.677,"text":"行政院在很慷慨我現在請問次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關 有"},{"start":9568.098,"end":9589.001,"text":"後來呢我問到的自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求就減低了嗎?"},{"start":9590.114,"end":9605.234,"text":"有了自動通關是不是你們人力就壓力就減低了我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之前我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力那麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是"},{"start":9607.757,"end":9635.483,"text":"是嘛 要減輕嘛 所以我要告訴你啦 次長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工 到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊 還減少多少還減少29個啊 還減少19個啊你覺得專勤隊的人力 次長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足 好 那我現在要告訴你 要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公 你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了 對不對"},{"start":9637.859,"end":9660.366,"text":"現在呢 我要向你們 你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額 要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合 外勤集合沒辦法用AI 沒辦法用人工智慧取代的 你同意嗎好 可以了 謝謝 署長請回我們請看下一頁好 現在我們來講詐騙"},{"start":9666.277,"end":9695.247,"text":"不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足好來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁"},{"start":9696.263,"end":9712.451,"text":"其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易"},{"start":9713.396,"end":9737.226,"text":"被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎"},{"start":9744.444,"end":9760.883,"text":"市長是不是這樣子?報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對,好,所以怎麼辦呢?我們看一下有沒有機制可以不安眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒辦法用交易的洗房法、納管"},{"start":9762.135,"end":9786.55,"text":"沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗髮法納管,署發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊。副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦,素產署啦。你們部長支持用洗髮法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數。結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需以洗髮法納管。"},{"start":9788.356,"end":9816.74,"text":"你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有?"},{"start":9818.822,"end":9847.35,"text":"包括報委員洗房法是法務部主管不是我不說洗房法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看第三方支付啊淪為博弈的網站詐團洗船洗船的幫兇啊怎麼說呢水房呢用人頭公司用假文件未判合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務呢有一個量能登錄對不對書發部是不是這樣子"},{"start":9848.311,"end":9858.187,"text":"那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的洞堵起來有了嗎 為什麼還是可以"},{"start":9861.171,"end":9882.06,"text":"這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三資業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看"},{"start":9885.635,"end":9905.221,"text":"處法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的詐欺"},{"start":9906.665,"end":9926.678,"text":"犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定只要這些人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗錢防治服務量能登記就不可以提供第三方之物請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎?次長你知道嗎?報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下"},{"start":9935.069,"end":9951.424,"text":"第三方支付是速發部、金管所以到現在行政院、內政部、速發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以速發部有預告第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的"},{"start":9952.205,"end":9972.726,"text":"處理辦法草案﹖有沒有說話部有沒有告訴你們的副署長有沒有我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那魔法是不是升內政部管的"},{"start":9973.769,"end":10000.78,"text":"母法是內政部給的?是你嘛 次長一直很用點頭嘛他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來 次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條 得第5條 得第6條 得7、8、9都是得得得得得次長 就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫得是什麼意思?也可以不做啊有沒有強制力?"},{"start":10001.997,"end":10022.734,"text":"次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟事務發布確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦事務發布可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們為什麼得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊"},{"start":10023.96,"end":10043.735,"text":"報告委員,因為我們相關的這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了哦,說得好,講到重點了,次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德,我們趕快要看,來看一下專法是什麼"},{"start":10045.015,"end":10068.101,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害房子條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查、延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持樹花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦"},{"start":10073.391,"end":10097.196,"text":"這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化來那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊要怎麼辦呢他說第一項他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰"},{"start":10100.826,"end":10116.193,"text":"我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進"},{"start":10125.066,"end":10130.072,"text":"你點頭要嘛 是不是好 對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例 是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛 那法務部部長、政部長30條這裡面你們有責任嘛 對不對"},{"start":10141.127,"end":10169.257,"text":"我們會協助那個數發部跟那個政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有效的管理這方置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們在這裡關心打詐四法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛"},{"start":10170.396,"end":10195.19,"text":"法務部要幫助速發部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用速發部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論"},{"start":10196.793,"end":10218.033,"text":"請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎?"},{"start":10219.656,"end":10246.63,"text":"都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎"},{"start":10247.759,"end":10255.046,"text":"好 可以喔 謝謝 謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長 謝謝大家謝謝那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10264.622,"end":10274.711,"text":"我知道所以我才說今天來的沒有次擋就沒辦法啊這補聽你如果你寫就調文寫就練啦你跑不去我也沒辦法你們部長講的跟你們法務的很不一樣明天來跟我們主席換名單啦"},{"start":10281.937,"end":10288.783,"text":"對對就是你這想起來很帥可以很安慰這哪算安慰我們中環的我們都是中環的基地我來我來我來我來我來我來我來"},{"start":10309.202,"end":10328.951,"text":"最好算是這裏,這裏就不行了你看嘛,天氣啊,過去已經,天氣好耶,金融會都支持了我來想想,你有來沒有,好,這個是好秀"},{"start":10338.777,"end":10340.158,"text":"事務委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10357.606,"end":10365.792,"text":"指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會、行政院打擊詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10380.603,"end":10381.744,"text":"有加了有加了"},{"start":10395.442,"end":10403.569,"text":"對馬鈴薯的補償和工作人員的補償就進入內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會"},{"start":10415.939,"end":10419.64,"text":"以遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10431.084,"end":10439.572,"text":"不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10451.823,"end":10469.027,"text":"不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑"},{"start":10476.588,"end":10481.533,"text":"以遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10505.079,"end":10523.568,"text":"行政委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10531.527,"end":10552.425,"text":"不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10559.675,"end":10584.047,"text":"有何疑惑﹗為何不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法?有何疑惑﹗為何不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法?"},{"start":10587.526,"end":10603.624,"text":"行政部部長、立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會、行政院打擊詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10610.151,"end":10618.461,"text":"同時遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具"},{"start":10630.22,"end":10633.828,"text":"在法法案發生在通訊傳播委員會上申請三百六千元,並且准判五十萬元"},{"start":10644.138,"end":10656.746,"text":"打詐四法、打詐五法、打詐六法、打詐七法、打詐八法、打詐九法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法"},{"start":10680.642,"end":10701.892,"text":"有限公司及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員"},{"start":10711.271,"end":10730.466,"text":"行政委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10736.506,"end":10742.656,"text":"而不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10755.968,"end":10771.979,"text":"不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10782.694,"end":10799.153,"text":"有詐騙及打詐移民署署長、內政部部長、內政部委員會、行政部長、內政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會"},{"start":10802.837,"end":10811.981,"text":"無論如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法無論如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法"},{"start":10840.87,"end":10842.651,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會那接下來我們請吳之瑤委員進行詢問"},{"start":10852.952,"end":10855.034,"text":"我今天要來搶救打詐預算"},{"start":10879.622,"end":10900.368,"text":"如果我們的財化法被修正通過了我們可能會是面臨一場財政的大災難很多中央所權屬的預算被下放到地方但是錢被挖走了權力跟事權沒有統一沒有下放所以在打詐會大打折扣這個"},{"start":10905.768,"end":10934.21,"text":"表格我歷次在質詢有關打詐我都會拿出來也就是詐欺罪現在已經是個刑案之首沒有錯嗎而詐欺罪當中的電信詐欺的恐嚇案又是最多達6乘3那就今天兩個部會的報告我們都可以總整來觀察到青少年跟外籍移工就成為打詐非常重要的防治對象下一頁"},{"start":10935.41,"end":10947.938,"text":"打詐四法雖然通過了上路了我們賦予了打詐一個更強的更有力的防禦工具但是呢它的成效會大打折扣我首先請NCC的陳處長"},{"start":10950.512,"end":10967.409,"text":"NCC的人事同意權目前還停擺那我們看到卓院長會重提人選但是在野黨主導的NCC組織法把所謂的延任條款給刪除了以至於我們這個嚴重的會延宕高達104項業務當中打詐"},{"start":10974.099,"end":11000.574,"text":"佔了很多項馬尤其我剛剛說的電信詐欺是詐欺罪當中的六成三又剛剛說外籍移工是針防的重中之重外籍移工他用的那個移工卡那個電信卡能不能夠對到使用者跟人這都是重中之重欸那如果NCC的人事同意權持續的受阻對於打詐的影響哪些業務沒有辦法推"},{"start":11003.859,"end":11028.237,"text":"報告委員有關於打詐的部分主要還是詐欺防罪危害防治條例的部分的相關有關電信服務電信事業嗎電信的相關的執法通常也在已經完成相關的立法的程序那有關於打詐的業務裡面如果沒有涉及到提到委員會審議的案件的話"},{"start":11029.878,"end":11058.018,"text":"是不會受到影響你們現在要啟動一個所謂業客模條款就是說有些部分用委員的諮詢會就可以來替代是不是可以盡可能想方設法把打詐相關的業務就用這個業客模條款來因應否則我非常不樂見NCC的人事同意權一天不通過你們的打詐在NCC協力的電信事業的協力上就會有很大的空窗跟停擺"},{"start":11059.037,"end":11073.898,"text":"包括委員就是在打詐的部分目前都沒有要提到委員會審議那怎麼辦那全部都受影響了就是行政程序就可以處理都可以成確定是好那很好希望這真的是好消息是"},{"start":11074.358,"end":11088.965,"text":"一定要讓所有打詐的相關作為因為你們電信業的這個三證條款嘛這些應當都能夠提早營銀就已經完成相關的法制程序所以後續只有行政公司的主辦好 那我的心可以安一半好 下一頁 謝謝"},{"start":11090.746,"end":11106.492,"text":"如果財化法被搬走了6612億中央可用的財源只剩下4159億我們各個部會站在這裡的有法務部有內政部我們的非法定支出都會受到影響"},{"start":11108.172,"end":11130.248,"text":"所以我反對這種分配不正義、事權不統一、財政不紀律、配套完全沒有提出的財化法的修正它造成的災難從法務部、內政部、警政署、包括訴發部、包括調查局、包括NCC一個都逃不掉你們都是受災戶啊!下一頁"},{"start":11131.854,"end":11153.692,"text":"再下一頁來我們來看看警政署請署長跟次長可以回答這是你們提供給我的如果說才化法錢被挖走了在警政署的部分高達360億的非法定支出當中很多是新興計劃就會受到波及"},{"start":11154.733,"end":11180.164,"text":"打詐查閉是一大類影響最大的最大條的就是一個45億的網路科技運用精進計畫另外呢打詐之外我們的治安裝備升級不管是軟體硬體也都有五大項的預算受到波及請問署長或次長誰可以回答"},{"start":11181.044,"end":11204.816,"text":"我這邊整理數字正確嗎?如果被影響了這麼多,這樣被安裝?我這個就很麻煩了未來如果說很多這個預算是先行而且是中央要做的是沒辦法分散到各地方政府去執行了這會造成一個大災難因為比如講像第一項的這個網路流量的一個流程"},{"start":11205.656,"end":11231.25,"text":"這個是因為打詐四法通過之後應用法律必須要去建置的一個設備要去做偵查犯罪的設備那這個部分就是在這個電信三大業者要去製作前端還有我們這個六大的一個一個一個治安的系統製作後端那如果說這個如果沒有沒有沒有過的話那這個對的打詐是會有大打折扣"},{"start":11232.113,"end":11237.734,"text":"你們要大聲把這樣的訊息說給社會聽因為警政一條邊這些預算是中央來執行尤其打詐的部分打詐四法如果連帶的預算受阻了預算被搬空了而地方又沒有辦法把這樣的事權下放我們的地安、打詐都是假的"},{"start":11257.279,"end":11277.578,"text":"要把這樣的聲音傳散出去更重要的是你們也要未雨綢繆找到可行的權宜的措施來 下一頁政部長 財化法二修之後你們法務部也成為重災戶我整理出來的法務部部本部"},{"start":11278.579,"end":11296.846,"text":"剿政署乃至於調查局加起來受影響的非法定支出有136.6億而當中跟打詐四法成立之後打詐相關的預算高達28.8億每天每當來部長怎麼辦因為法務部系首屬機關都是屬於中央機關那這部分"},{"start":11306.052,"end":11323.599,"text":"採訪法這部分對中央這部分的經費預算對這部分的確是有影響我們是蠻擔心的剛才有提到就是以調查舉為例那個購置網路流量記錄的那個分析系統五億五億那是跟那個警政署我沒分但那是屬於打詐的流量"},{"start":11324.139,"end":11345.173,"text":"但是打詐是純打詐的一個費用所以這部分我們蠻擔心這個有做一個擠壓我們希望是我們是全力是在嚴辦打詐還有毒品等犯罪我們不希望就是有這樣受到一個影響沒有錯 你看法務部本部我們補助毒品防治特別收入基金6.6億這部分嗎"},{"start":11346.894,"end":11375.427,"text":"也受影響乃至於我們要支援各地的高檢、地檢署來辦理各類的刑事案件他的業務費21.1億也就是我們要替很多的助理、檢察官來這個過勞的狀況來解勞然後來給予一些津貼補助的相關經費全部都受影響而這不是地方政府能夠做的事嗎這個像檢察處理這部分的確是初步可以暫時解決"},{"start":11376.627,"end":11391.709,"text":"就做一部分紓解檢察官的工作的一個負擔尤其像我們這些打詐的案件的確是還在處在高峰期那我們也是希望說這部分能夠多考慮到我們中央機關的這些的預算的窘迫"},{"start":11393.001,"end":11400.742,"text":"有權需要錢嗎?是權要統一我希望你們也努力把這個聲音傳散給社會知道也要加強遊說我們的朝野立委我相信多數立委還是支持打詐支持治安防治一定要讓立委們知道如果才化法這樣子的掏空了中央的執行經費"},{"start":11421.006,"end":11436.58,"text":"連同事權沒有辦法統一的來跟地方分擔的話那大家都受影響而我要說今天站在我面前的不管是警政署的業務或是法務部的業務這些顯然都不是地方政府能夠執行的下一頁"},{"start":11439.54,"end":11453.641,"text":"這就是剛剛說的網路流量記錄的偵查預期效應這個資料庫45億編載警政署5億是法務部這就是我們這一次打詐四法非常重要的"},{"start":11454.602,"end":11476.101,"text":"要能夠建置這樣一個網路流量的資料庫才能夠有利於我們去做電信類的這種打詐案件的偵訪這真的是大事不容小覷我們希望《財化法》的災難不要波及了打詐跟治安防護的工作下一頁數法部其實也沒有辦法倖免於難"},{"start":11479.588,"end":11507.858,"text":"其實金管會也有啊對於打詐四法當中的金流要去查查洗錢受發布就有3.6億的防詐通報查詢與數位信任應用發展的經費受到影響而調查局要查查金融資料AI分析的平台2.7億都受影響把聲音傳出去下一頁最後一頁我們在對不起"},{"start":11508.678,"end":11536.337,"text":"我們這一屆期大家都關心基層檢察官的過勞包括我們的招委他來自於檢察體系大家都為基層檢察官努力的發聲爭取預算如果才化法惡修了我剛剛列出這一筆21.1億來協助地方來辦理不管高檢、低檢辦理他的業務或者是來補貼所有的檢察官助理的經費"},{"start":11538.11,"end":11539.278,"text":"全部都受影響。」"},{"start":11540.768,"end":11569.983,"text":"是不是是那個謝謝委員的關心那我想基層檢查官的確是過勞那賠償的辛苦有時候辦一個專案三天三夜都沒睡覺所以結果再當檢查我就會一大早跑去問你還活著嗎所以我就覺得對啊所以檢查官沒有中央檢查官地方檢查官嗎全部都是我們法務部要來協助的嘛要來安排擴大照顧的最後一頁所以我們搶救打詐的預算搶救治安的預算大家一起來"},{"start":11570.703,"end":11598.648,"text":"我們要呼籲再呼籲搞政治的鬥爭也不要犧牲基層執法的工具我在這裡非常的語重心長我希望各部會大家強化對於國會的遊說因為治安工作打詐工作這些還有司法偵辦這真的不是地方政府能夠分擔的業務我們為全國人民來著想謝謝主席給我時間謝謝大家辛苦一起加油謝謝"},{"start":11600.779,"end":11628.779,"text":"謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言主席有請部長麻煩部長委員好部長你剛又在跟吳思堯一搭一唱啊"},{"start":11629.571,"end":11653.585,"text":"又在講什麼財化法會去侵奪你們的司法單位的那個預算上次已經跟你講過了不要隨便配合趙瑤王上次吳思瑤跟你們一搭一唱說我干涉個案你已經打臉他了現在就來講財化法財化法是不是中央集權又集權該修你覺得呢"},{"start":11655.527,"end":11683.758,"text":"這部分是 有沒有修 我想是這是長久討論的一個問題我告訴你這句話賴清德講的啦是賴清德講的啦財化法今天就是打破今天中央集權又集錢的一個狀況我說真的今天在後面聽吳斯堯講我也非得講不可第一個早期中央跟地方的所謂的經費是六成對四成嘛 對不對"},{"start":11685.522,"end":11706.012,"text":"現在已經變成75%對25%確實如賴清德講的啊中央集權又集錢啊造成很多地方政府今天財政困難很多建設推不動第二個呢同時也讓中央政府在很多的預算上就會產生浪費的問題啊到處蓋文職館為什麼不把錢當錢嘛"},{"start":11710.902,"end":11733.112,"text":"今天你跟我講財化法像我就舉例子像我們政府又超收稅收4千億啊財化法今天就是健全地方的財政也去糾正過去今天民進黨政府他在集權又集權的過程當中很多預算分配不公平的問題所以跟你打詐預算什麼政能你打詐預算到底什麼關係啊部長"},{"start":11737.52,"end":11751.852,"text":"你今天政府、監察院那些浪費的出國的錢砍一砍你今天民進黨做大外宣養育媒的錢砍一砍不夠你打詐預算嗎今天打詐預算我們立法院要刪你嗎為什麼今天可以影響到你的打詐業務財化法修正會影響到你打詐業務嗎會不會部長告訴我啊"},{"start":11763.248,"end":11774.331,"text":"當然我們是擔心整個因為我們預算不夠的一個擔心欸現在財化法還在審欸什麼預算不夠你這不浪費的錢吐出來絕對不會不夠啦不是嗎你現在要預設財化法今天讓你打詐業務退不進去你去配合吳士堯、吳兆堯一搭一唱我本來懶得提他啦這幾道聽到我覺得也受不了啦"},{"start":11791.101,"end":11793.802,"text":"沒辦法嘛 愛造謠我就是要打臉他今天才化法的問題很簡單你政府中央部分你該要有的預算立法院一樣會審阿 一樣會給阿但是你如果浪費預算我們就砍阿砍來給你法務部做打詐經費用阿阿怎麼會去滴答一唱說才化法會影響你們打詐的預算聽不下去啦"},{"start":11821.24,"end":11841.606,"text":"第二個我要再問部長我曾經說過大法官的憲法判決就是配合民進黨黨綱的實質廢止判決什麼叫實質廢止我給了一個很明確的標準就是在新澤總統在2028年5月19日卸任之前不會有任何一個死刑被執行"},{"start":11843.134,"end":11870.222,"text":"我想請問您齁在賴清德現在齁已經上任半年了啦只剩三年半未來三年半的任期內你有可能簽出死刑的執行令嗎?這個只要合乎那個先判意旨的那個受刑能力那我們認為是可以我告訴你啊這個我已經聽你講也是一百遍了我直接跟你講就不會了就不會那我也說過啊我希望你打臉我啊我們就來看看你會不會簽死刑執行令我告訴你一個都不會"},{"start":11871.756,"end":11894.005,"text":"這就叫實質廢死我再想請教您請問大法官做出實質廢死判決之後已經多久了9月20兩個月了嘛對不對那我想請問你37位死刑犯有多少人提出非常上訴了目前是沒有目前沒有那非常上訴要多久之內要提出來"},{"start":11895.169,"end":11915.709,"text":"這個沒有那個有些是在整個修法有些是又依照憲判意思那個憲判意思我只問你多久之內要提出來有沒有實現嘛沒有沒有期限阿喔沒有實現喔只有有三位只有一個那我問你阿沒有實現阿他說他就一直不提非常上述那你實行也不用執行的意思是不是"},{"start":11917.112,"end":11938.021,"text":"這個還是現在是在審查中啊審議中啊什麼叫審查中審議中就是37個死刑案我問你一個問題嘛照你說今天非常上述他只要不提那不提的狀態我不提10年你有辦法執行死刑嗎你告訴我有沒有辦法你會不會執行死刑這個是還有最高檢在各案帶上好了好了我告訴你我真的又受不了了會議詢問"},{"start":11939.582,"end":11959.26,"text":"我們請中線主席這本來就是在最高檢控剛剛我們的部長講說這個非常上述沒有提的期限啊那我跟妳講10年我不提非常上述這10年不用執行死刑這個意思嗎不正面回答我我們還是要遵照憲判的意思來做一個審議我的問題是法律問題不是問你什麼問題如果我簡單解釋一下就是說這次憲判出來"},{"start":11966.466,"end":11989.857,"text":"的非常上述確實是沒有申請的期限限制這沒問題但是那個死刑執行依據刑法84條死刑執行是有限制的那在94年7月1號修法84條修法前是我印象中30年那現在新法是40年所以你要看這個這三七位有沒有人是在"},{"start":11991.538,"end":12004.809,"text":"94年7月1號以前要執行的如果是的話就是用30年否則大部分應該是用40年請問部長有沒有到30年跟40年的 沒有嘛 有嗎 有沒有"},{"start":12008.956,"end":12032.032,"text":"目前是沒有沒有嘛我才說實質廢死難怪沒有我真的直接跟沒有沒有現在沒有實質廢死喔不是啊我要告訴你事情本來就是和諧沒關係你要回頭打翻前面我跟你講實質廢死定義我的實質廢死定義我已經講過了你任內不會簽一個死刑執行就是實質廢死如果你不認同這個定義就是我尊重你你是要跟我講你會不會簽一個死刑執行現在你已經告訴我你不會了你知道為什麼嗎我告訴你來部長部長部長"},{"start":12037.896,"end":12061.823,"text":"我告訴你你剛剛其實已經回答你已經跟我回答不會了你知道為什麼嗎我告訴你你的結果就是不會為什麼很簡單你剛剛跟我講今天申請非常上訴沒有期限然後只要沒有剛剛今天滿足吳宗憲主席剛剛講的那個所謂30年跟40年期限的話我只問你嘛現在這些死刑犯他不申請非常上訴是不是最好的訴訟策略"},{"start":12064.718,"end":12066.138,"text":"以30年標準還差幾年?數學問題啊"},{"start":12094.52,"end":12119.957,"text":"那是一個行刑前時效的一個問題對啊11年吧數學問題你都不回答我我不要逼我會議詢問嘛那我就跟你講今天他不提非常上訴就不會執行死刑了問題解決了藉他歡喜了民進黨當萬歲了你今天告訴我的啊所以我更跟你確定你的任內不會簽一個死刑執行令因為只要他不提非常上訴照你的邏輯喔"},{"start":12123.105,"end":12139.033,"text":"好我問你邱和順他10年內不提非常上訴你有辦法執行實行嗎?現判意思並沒有說一定要我不講現判意思我問的是你的法定權利我只問一個明確的問題連這都答不出來來我請問揮詢問主席這真的太明確的法律問題邱和順他跟我講19年邱和順如果比如講10年啦4年內"},{"start":12150.08,"end":12156.187,"text":"他不提非常上述你法務部有辦法執行實行嗎?那個提非常上述是憲判意思是說"},{"start":12157.728,"end":12163.029,"text":"因為被告隨時是可以申請非常上訴所以他如果拖著不申請那法務部也不簽執行命令的話"},{"start":12181.173,"end":12193.454,"text":"那確實是就是拖在那裡那另外一個就是說如果法務部有意思要簽的話就趕快提非常上訴那又會又卡住好來來來沒辦法執行好你會趕快提非常上訴嗎"},{"start":12194.794,"end":12219.019,"text":"這個不是我在決定對嘛這個是這個是現在好啦我告訴你啦來來來最高檢查署在審核這個我當然知道是檢查總長嘛我還要你教這個一個一個我們行政規則本來就是有最高檢先我告訴你部長到現在而且憲判議事也是來來我告訴你時間也是有限我只問你一件事情事實問題加你的權責問題邱和順"},{"start":12223.868,"end":12252.517,"text":"他不提非常上訴他四年內不提非常上訴你能不能跟你會不會簽死刑執行令你能不能簽有沒有什麼條件滿足之下能簽他這個字要只要合乎死刑執行規則還有審核那個那你就是會嘛對不對就是會囉那現在是在最高檢察署審核中嘛我沒辦法我還沒有看過那個案件嘛"},{"start":12253.585,"end":12258.708,"text":"這個目前...你現在告訴我審核完就會簽了是不是這個還要再審核來來來我跟你講齁我要問齁今天齁有30個評議部已經銷毀了嘛我們跟吳宗憲召委去考察嘛對不對關於死刑過去的評議部嘛對不對是不是37個有30個銷毀了嘛這是司法院得來來來我們請司法院"},{"start":12285.613,"end":12314.479,"text":"委員好有7個你們說已經是查清楚是一字決判決死刑嘛對不對這個最高法院給我們的回覆是說有30位的平易部已經銷毀了那有7個是已經確定是一字決的判決死刑嗎他們回覆說回覆最高檢說有可以證明用平易部來證明是一字決這樣子有7個確定嘛7位6件7位7位嘛6件7位嘛那我想請教齁那依照大法官憲法判決的意旨他們可以非常上訴嗎"},{"start":12317.418,"end":12341.766,"text":"依照這七個啦已經確定你們確定是一字決判決的死刑的這個是由總長來爭奪依職權來行使我問的不是他要不要行使我是按照大法官的意旨他有沒有權力提非常上訴嘛如果他沒有辦法用其他的證據來證明說一字決的話他可不可以說個案犯罪不是屬情節最重最嚴重大法官憲法判決啊"},{"start":12342.662,"end":12365.888,"text":"那個還有其他事有,不是只有一字決定還有其他事有所以還是可以提非常上述啊所以換言之為什麼今天我一直跟部長講到現在為止啊你到現在為止對於死刑這實質廢事你一口都說不叫實質廢事我就跟你講嘛你也不敢告訴我說今天你有把握你執行死刑啊然後呢接下來我想請問"},{"start":12368.697,"end":12397.312,"text":"非常少數提出來之後最高法院有沒有可能判決這個撤銷判決有沒有可能有沒有可能這個涉及到個案啦那個是由個案最高法院來判斷我沒辦法幫最高法院來回答個案我告訴你啦不只是可能啦我先倒過來我問部長你一定又是檢察總長回答我想請問齁我告訴你第一個"},{"start":12399.264,"end":12422.856,"text":"如果剛剛這個問題齁如果他真的提的非常上述阿依照現在大法官的憲法的判決意旨阿你認為今天檢察總長阿他會不會全部都是照樣就提非常上述的你不會回答你說檢察總長的問題啦對不對我幫你回答啦好不好本來就是個案來審查我沒辦法跟總長回答這個問題嗎我跟你講"},{"start":12426.414,"end":12455.508,"text":"按照大法官的所謂的憲法判決意旨他已經跟大家講說他就是要來貫徹民進黨的黨綱實質的意思就是這樣檢查總長檢查總長也不敢不提非常上述我直接跟你講我們就來試試看沒關係還有四年我們就慢慢看那接下來我就要問我們的司法院了我要講什麼我說今天如果真的撤銷判決"},{"start":12457.657,"end":12485.499,"text":"死刑會不會撤銷判決?有可能嗎?對不對?有可能吧?這個個案當然嘛個案嘛有可能非常上訴博弈也有非常上訴準許我現在講非常上訴如果說今天這個成功以後的話最高法院有沒有可能撤銷?如果是有理由的時候就最高法院就有可能嘛也有可能不嘛你就這樣回答不就結束了那我告訴你啊我跟你講我一樣做第三個預判"},{"start":12487.145,"end":12506.41,"text":"就會撤銷了很多就改判了為什麼因為最高法院最新的案例是什麼司徒獎女老師四次被判死刑最高法院是怎麼說的改判她免死確定怎麼判的他直接說是因為大法官按照大法官憲法一直判的啦改判的啦我跟你講我們就等著看"},{"start":12507.95,"end":12531.559,"text":"第一個來看如果不提飛揚上訴拖著不提今天部長會不會簽執行執行令第一個看第二個如果提了飛揚上訴之後大法官那個檢察總統會不會這個不受理或是駁回他的飛揚上訴第三個如果飛揚上訴提出來之後法院會不會改判免死這三個我告訴你都會往實質廢止方向走以上謝謝"},{"start":12533.648,"end":12561.255,"text":"那我現在做一下會議宣告上午會議時間繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止那接著我們請陳培宇委員進行詢答好謝謝主席有請法務部部長還有司法院邵氏廷法官謝謝邵氏廷副法官謝謝"},{"start":12569.022,"end":12591.162,"text":"好 兩位早安 午安 我們來看下一頁我想要直接跟部長討論我當然知道在青少年作為詐騙集團的犯罪工具這件事情法務部跟上市廳其實都有非常多的作為可是我想要跟部長也跟上市廳法官分享另外一個觀點在今年9月公共電視的公視主題秀裡面這個人我們都叫他果果"},{"start":12592.003,"end":12613.115,"text":"果果是一個教育工作者也是一個社工他最近又創了一個很棒的社工支持計畫他在節目上談到一個很重要的觀點其實也是我們長時間在教育第一線現場我們所看到的困境他說所有幸福家庭的元素幫派裡面都有老大對你有期待兄弟對你有義氣如果你以為爸爸媽媽會給你經濟資產或者是獎勵那幫派裡面更多"},{"start":12617.777,"end":12632.618,"text":"我們很難期待這些有可能進入幫派的家庭真的能夠接住每一個犯罪的青少年也就是說我相信法務部一定知道其實有很多走上犯罪之路的孩子他們的原生家庭出現了困難而且"},{"start":12633.078,"end":12652.416,"text":"原生家庭出現困難的孩子過往我們可能以為都是中下經濟階層的但近年來有非常多中產階級的孩子也走入這個困境我認為我們在做所有防範工作都必須要回到青少年角度來看這件事情來檢視我們的政策是不是可以真的幫助小孩讓孩子不要走上這一條路"},{"start":12653.377,"end":12681.954,"text":"除了這個果果社工師之外有另外一個觀點也想要跟部長分享來下一頁我們認識一個團體叫逆風劇團他們常年在陪伴很多邊緣的孩子用戲劇展演自己的故事說出自己心裡面的苦他可能是機構的孩子可能是街頭的孩子也可能是學校的孩子那常年以來他們告訴我們很多我們聽了都很心酸的故事例如說很多孩子告訴他們他們其實身不由己因為家裡要養"},{"start":12682.975,"end":12700.001,"text":"那個身不由己他們認為往往是因為來不及來不及什麼呢來不及好好生活來不及好好念書來不及讓自己改善所以走不出來幫派一離開只能去做初工、做工地就算現在去做別的工作也很難接受一個月只有三、四萬塊"},{"start":12701.121,"end":12730.12,"text":"孩子們問說我去做詐騙集團的工作不也是一種脫貧嗎為什麼這種脫貧是不可以的呢我們當然知道這樣的認知有問題這樣的認知也不符合社會主流的規範但我們要問的是孩子們的困境從剛剛那個社工師到這個逆風劇團因為時間有限我都不再舉例我想要講的是如果我們這些大人從所謂的教育機構或是從法務機構我們想要協助這些孩子一、不要走上"},{"start":12731.241,"end":12745.868,"text":"不好的路,或從不好的路走回來,我們到底做了哪些事情?」在法務部這裡我們看到你們在宣導面你們各地檢署都積極提供師資還有資源協力提升青少年的法律資能,我不會說這是錯的"},{"start":12747.208,"end":12765.941,"text":"可是我要問,難道孩子們不知道這些行為是犯法的嗎?我想在場都沒有人不會不知道,其實孩子們也都知道但如同我說的,為什麼他們會走入這個部分?會不會所有快速的賺錢方法都寫在六法全書裡面?甚至有孩子告訴我們,幫派裡面有法律顧問在協助他們理解自己的處境跟可能會遇到的狀況"},{"start":12766.901,"end":12792.778,"text":"在防治面我們知道你們跟各部會積極推動預防少年兒童犯罪方案那在院長上任之後還宣示114到117要投入87億我非常好奇目前你們的進度走到哪裡接下來查緝面行事跟行政結合希望共同嚴範青少年涉入詐欺犯罪可是我們到底有沒有用不同的角度來理解為什麼孩子會走到這裡還有你們查緝完之後就把孩子丟進矯正學校"},{"start":12794.079,"end":12811.554,"text":"孩子們在矯正學校三個月到三年不等的時間出來之後整個社會你們跟教育部有相關的機制接觸這些小孩嗎?事實上是沒有的甚至我們聽到矯正老師告訴我們在割喉案之後孩子們會被快速地審理完相關的案件丟進矯正學校所以矯正學校也快要崩潰了"},{"start":12812.435,"end":12831.705,"text":"而這都是法務部必須要去面對當你們今天提出這些業務報告的時候你們其實沒有真的可以實質面對這些問題不管是腳校內的孩子或是腳校外還在社會上遊蕩的孩子我當然知道教育的業務有國教署跟教育部但是我也想要拜託法務部我們可以怎麼樣積極的協助這些孩子"},{"start":12833.26,"end":12851.203,"text":"所以最後我想要說我們看到今天的業務報告面對青少年的問題司法院沒有任何的想像你們就只有給我們看到這兩頁我們非常好奇在未來我們打算用114到117那個龐大的經費來做怎麼樣協助孩子的工作這個部分可不可以請部長快速回應一下"},{"start":12854.344,"end":12875.716,"text":"這個少年事件的處理齁這個在檢察院是沒有角色的齁這全部都是少年法庭少年因為他有先例權他有少年事件處理法那我們真的有就除了起訴有些起訴的那個案件才會到檢察官這樣來所以我們全部都給少年法庭來處理那另外剛才那個我有提到那個矯正署這部分其實只有四間矯正學校齁"},{"start":12877.377,"end":12899.726,"text":"我當然知道可是我要講的是你們在防詐工作裡面你們也做了很多事情對於孩子們可是我剛剛提醒法務部我想這個防詐這部分因為這個少女有時候在學校在社會上這個我想這個不是法務部能夠主管的那當然我們也會跟各部會來到學校或到社區去我們去做一個宣導那我想"},{"start":12900.786,"end":12923.603,"text":"少年最主要的不是他不知道法律會處罰但是他沒有正常的法治觀念那我想這個是要做一個宣導就跟他做一個矯正回來你可以做很多這不是去加入詐團或加入犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":12925.404,"end":12948.156,"text":"我認為孩子們真的不是不知道其實孩子們都知道可是我要講的是剛剛部長你說了有些業務其實不歸你們主管可是我光是以矯正學校為例其實你們在跟教育部的銜接都出現了很多問題可是因為我的時間有限我想要尊重主席跟後續的委員是不是我們辦公室後續可以積極的跟法務部還有相關單位討論我們如何協助這些孩子不管是已經進入體制內或是還在體制外在犯罪的路上的孩子"},{"start":12950.758,"end":12972.773,"text":"還有114到117年那個計畫我們也想要看到你們目前規劃的進度我們再來一起討論我們辦公室再找你們開會謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員我很喜歡你那一句說賺錢的方式都寫在六法全書裡面維護社會治安非常重要 是 謝謝好 那下一位我們請林淑芬委員"},{"start":12981.297,"end":12986.499,"text":"主席各位大家午安是不是來請我們行事廳廳長麻煩廳長委員好廳長上一次我在這裡質詢的時候我記得你說我們討論這個依究的這個糾紛鑑定那你說最後說你們派主責的法官跟醫師司跟醫審會的委員要來跟我們做一些說明"},{"start":13010.356,"end":13030.983,"text":"然後從那時候到現在通通都沒有說明遇到我都會說我要去拜訪你我要去說明可不可以給我時間回應一下對我就是要聽你謝謝委員事實上我們在上個禮拜我們有跟法務部跟衛福部還有其他人還有幾個議事這樣子我這樣子問好了是"},{"start":13031.583,"end":13057.968,"text":"從我在院會質詢我們要求行政部門要跟司法院跨院會去討論這一件事情因為整個醫療糾紛的訴訟停擺到現在從法律過你們提的修法案208條的修法到現在七個多月了整個訴訟停擺你知道這個被醫院會退回的鑑定案件有多少件嗎"},{"start":13059.848,"end":13076.065,"text":"這部分是在檢察署那邊的,是300多件事實上我們自己調查的是沒那麼多啦就是審判中的是沒那麼多啦我知道目前只有兩件還是三件而已那我跟委員報告一下就卡關卡在檢察署當然送不到你們那裡啊你怎麼把我們整笑了,你當作我們是笑的喔"},{"start":13076.385,"end":13082.309,"text":"那我跟委員報告一下我們事實上安排在11月29號你們開過幾次會協調跨院的協調討論幾次11月29號要做跨部會的那個協商那另外呢我們安排11月27號下午我們跟醫師之前開過幾次會之前也有跟法務部有聯繫過聯繫過沒有開過會"},{"start":13102.148,"end":13105.97,"text":"我們本來就因為我們有跟衛福部約時間他們一直說沒有空所以才訂在11月29號要跟跨部會包括醫事室跟新建室所以正式的會議是29號才要開11月29號那我們私底下的拜會部分在11月27號我們會拜會醫事全年會我們會去跟他們說明一些相關的一些鑑定心智的一些相關問題"},{"start":13126.9,"end":13131.384,"text":"也知道他們也想瞭解他們的顧慮現在不是你們去跟他們宣導餒現在是你要聽人家講什麼餒我們是要去瞭解他們的顧忌跟他們的需求是什麼我們看能不能提高他們我10月1號10月1號我諮詢10月1號你11月29兩個月以後才要開會"},{"start":13147.438,"end":13157.502,"text":"然後這兩個月中間沒有任何進度你們也相互之間正式的溝通也還沒有正式的溝通過然後正式的會議要11月29這已經很慢了耶你有沒有想過訴訟當事人的權益在哪裡"},{"start":13169.907,"end":13188.103,"text":"事實上我也跟委員報告一下我們也有去在網路上搜尋有沒有其他機關願意做醫療鑑定的的確是有在南部有個協會有在做那也曾經在參與過法院的一些相關你不要跟我講曾經我現在問你的是現在有沒有人有意願要做如果就"},{"start":13192.352,"end":13202.782,"text":"那我再問你一個問題你叫人家自然人要具名到底是具名比較敢真實的把這個報告裡面鑑定報告比較敢真實寫出來還是"},{"start":13205.103,"end":13206.905,"text":"具名比較不造假,還是要不具名?理想很豐滿,但是現實很骨感"},{"start":13224.119,"end":13230.341,"text":"理想是很正確的但是做不到現在問題是你們是要保障訴訟當事人的權益讓這個鑑定報告的真實性還有它的公正性要確保可是呢執行起來是沒有了什麼都沒有了沒有鑑定了醫療糾紛連鑑定都沒有了你講的都有道理啦但我現在問你一件事"},{"start":13254.168,"end":13267.101,"text":"醫療糾紛沒有鑑定訴訟審理沒有辦法進行這件事要如何解決?這個我們努力在溝通不是啦!你要努力多久?努力一年、努力兩年、努力三年?我們已經積極的安排他已經在那裡要找人的款項要怎麼辦?"},{"start":13268.462,"end":13273.327,"text":"他所受到的侵害誰要來補償他?我想衛福部也可以幫忙對國家政策的推行你還是機關本位主義衛福部告訴你我當初你修法就是這樣子造成整個法律你講得很有道理但是就沒有人要去跟你感情"},{"start":13292.785,"end":13313.972,"text":"沒有人要幹定整個訴訟審理沒辦法繼續立委在這裡跟你們講了兩個月以後還是沒有進度也沒有溝通我們有安排進度也有溝通事實上在上年然後你在進度和溝通的態度你就是我繼續維持我本位主義我們沒有維持我們本位主義現在我知道我告訴你我告訴你我現在問你一件事"},{"start":13318.533,"end":13339.083,"text":"您講的都很有道理,但是沒辦法的醫生買,醫生會也沒人買,現在要怎麼做?我問的是如何解決這個問題?所以我們才要去拜託、去拜訪那個全國醫事聯合會就我所知,醫事部門的人希望重新再修法,你有可能嗎?你接受嗎?"},{"start":13340.273,"end":13347.661,"text":"就目前來講我們可能還要審慎的考慮你就是不願意接受你現在所指的理由你就是說平平專業人士很多啊白狼的專業人士就發動具名是怎麼你們做醫生的沒辦法你們的態度就是這樣啊"},{"start":13359.173,"end":13376.402,"text":"問責制度 問責機能 這是一個立法你就是認為理所當然 現在我問你是執行面你利益良善 而且是正確無誤可是執行面 執行面做不出來要怎麼做啊那你不可以說 醫生說你就一定要來幫我做的是 我們當然不能勉強說我們才說我們要盡力的所以我問你的不是盡力喔你已經盡力 現在已經拖到過去 已經背後了"},{"start":13385.467,"end":13398.912,"text":"被告的你若訴訟當事人說我的案件八個月全台灣每一個每一個訴訟當事人每一個案件都沒有辦法鑑定每個人都拖在那裡跟你沒關係捏因為案件沒到你這裡來是檢察官的不跟董事長的事情捏"},{"start":13405.563,"end":13418.07,"text":"你現在叫我說跟你無關的火是你們放的現在你們置身度外都跟你無關的事不關己責任都在檢察官和訴訟當事人身上可是就沒辦法鑑定"},{"start":13422.285,"end":13426.668,"text":"這個是國事會議的結論我們必須去做落實你現在國事會議的結論你做廳長的人你沒辦法解決我現在就要跟你接受你說你叫國事會議執行你就沒找出解決的問題的方法來我們有期望要找個解決的方案你到現在還在堅持說你沒要修法"},{"start":13443.46,"end":13455.885,"text":"你沒有修法也可以但是你告訴我怎麼解決我沒有要求一定要修法也許醫審會這邊他們有他們的堅持我們尊重所以你認為醫審會的制度運作是錯誤的嗎我再問你聽長你認為醫審會運作的制度是錯誤的嗎你知道醫審會怎麼運作嗎我知道"},{"start":13467.614,"end":13477.96,"text":"就醫療鑑定的部分先從出鑑醫師出鑑醫師從醫學中心來找出鑑醫師出鑑醫師然後呢對然後再提到醫審會去做實驗醫審會是不是集體共識決是不是可以修改出鑑醫師的意見他是一致決的一致決的對要一致共識在監察院曾經在109年也曾經為了一個匿名鑑定的部分提出一個調查報告也針對醫審會這個部分是調查報告還是糾正報告調查報告"},{"start":13495.691,"end":13498.432,"text":"就沒有修正你現在在說一個調查報告我問你啦大家醫生會所有的委員對出鑑報告可不可以下指導期可不可以修正可不可以改是可以的阿你這樣子叫出鑑的醫生去具名公平嗎很抱歉我們有講出鑑醫師是不用具名的要具名的是誰"},{"start":13521.136,"end":13525.617,"text":"就是依審會的所有的委員具名所有的委員更冤枉因為對初見的醫生有一點意見然後你叫我大家都要具名請問到庭上去結問的要是誰負責去審理審判的時候要去出法我們有跟法官講說"},{"start":13545.663,"end":13567.231,"text":"如果是這種情形 如果他有鑑定不足的部分 儘量用書補充鑑定的方式來實施 如果非必要的話啊 必要的時候是叫誰那就請出見 不是請出見委員來 不是請出見醫師來那叫誰啊那就有具名的委員了 其中一個具名委員其中一個到底是誰啊"},{"start":13568.391,"end":13580.116,"text":"你名字沒有給我們我們怎麼知道通知是誰一次如果有五個六個要找誰那每個人都有每他的專業我們根據這部分的專業也許那他為什麼要花這個時間去為這個鑑定報告去負責呢"},{"start":13586.143,"end":13602.133,"text":"所以你的意思是醫生會你覺得很簡單的但是他們就沒辦法運作醫生也不愛捏那怎麼辦我也知道他們的顧慮啦事實上我們有幾位醫師也有講過具名瞎出來報告比較不造假是不是啦你跟我說這是基本的問責機制啦"},{"start":13603.374,"end":13626.263,"text":"就好像我們最高法院以前的秘密分爛的時代保密分爛的時代 如果法官都不具名 或者是我跟您講 鑑定意見具名勢必難以避免案件關係人進行關說請託之情事 希求鑑定人能做出對己有利的鑑定如果有不利於己方的鑑定 案件關係人更可能進一步對鑑定人進行騷擾或報復好 現在來了 BBE星"},{"start":13631.746,"end":13649.237,"text":"許多關稅 許多關稅如果把這個理由推演下去的話所有的審查都通通不要具名包括法院的判決書都不要具名法官的名字在審理的時候也都不要具名因為我們也有朋友啊"},{"start":13650.168,"end":13669.434,"text":"那這樣子可以用這樣的推演說我們會被受關說現在是這樣你職務上你不可規避啊分案給你你就要審啊那這個醫生呢他是法定的職權法定的任務耶你叫是醫生會的委員人家醫生會是這樣沒有錯可是醫生可以說我不當委員了啊他不是真的法官是以此為業他可以說我不當啦我不當委員啊"},{"start":13677.628,"end":13690.82,"text":"他不是以此為業 以委員為業我現在都不想問你道歉 因為你說了有道歉 但是醫生就是不愛這要怎麼解決你就沒想出來 你要拖多久 你告訴我要拖多久那這幾百個訴訟當事人的權益到底還要讓你們拖多久 我就問這個問題"},{"start":13700.933,"end":13712.917,"text":"要再拖下去或想辦法你今天在這裡跟我們說想辦法可是你要想多久我們真的有在做事我們包括我們安排的列席會議兩個月一次不是兩個月一次立委諮詢以後兩個月才有開會我們請法官到意見會那邊去做說明"},{"start":13718.859,"end":13734.884,"text":"這部分我們都有在做,我們知道他們的難處是什麼事實上我們開了三次會、諮詢會,會員會的人也有到我們這邊來做一些現在就是司法院都很大,跟你說也不想聽不是,我們非常尊重委員給我們的指教對啦,我會指教,我們就等著審預算的時候來指教啦好,謝謝,那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員"},{"start":13754.616,"end":13757.899,"text":"有請部長我們今天的主題主要是討論有關於打詐、詐騙的問題那麼我們知道其實在台灣詐騙的手法五花八門很多都是利用這個人性貪婪的這種弱點所以這個常常都會有發生"},{"start":13780.659,"end":13805.837,"text":"有人被詐騙當然被詐騙的當事人他自己本身有責任可是如果說詐騙的手法他是一再利用公部門的口號或者是公部門的政策然後因此而被詐騙的話其實我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要要做一些政策的檢討首先我想要講就是說"},{"start":13806.858,"end":13826.577,"text":"我其實最近就是從司法院的裁判書裡面就是用偵查不公開的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為當事人他相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開所以後來就被詐騙了"},{"start":13827.498,"end":13852.57,"text":"在113年就136筆那其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團他謊稱是這個檢調人員告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講這個偵查不公開所以導致有些當事人呢就被詐騙那麼這10件的金額就高達一千多萬那我想其實很多的民眾基本上大概都常常會有接到類似這樣的電話那尤其像是這個高齡的"},{"start":13856.312,"end":13870.256,"text":"的民眾常常很容易就誤信為他是不是賬戶被凍結啦或是等等的這個情況然後詐騙集團又告訴他說這是不能講因為偵查不公開所以我想請教部長就是說您對於這種詐騙集團他一再"},{"start":13872.777,"end":13886.538,"text":"一而再再而三地利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段。」這件事情您的看法是什麼樣?您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民就誤信偵查不公開?"},{"start":13888.302,"end":13906.474,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指教那我想這個冒充那個司法人員這已經由來很久了那現在尤其如果說以用這個偵查不公開來欺騙我想都欺騙這些老實人那我想我們用宣導面的我們用個案去識別化的"},{"start":13906.914,"end":13927.85,"text":"以偵查不光這一種實際的案例我們在做一個宣導那我想我們檢察官我們希望我們各地檢察官我們結合我們各主管的部會我想我們到社區裡面我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓那我們用識別化的這種方式把我們實際的案例我們做一個宣導"},{"start":13928.61,"end":13955.335,"text":"那基本上我們在地方電視台或者是我們那個社區利用任何一種的甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導我想可以讓比較有說服力讓他們有警覺好那我想要告訴部長的就是說其實呢這些年來我們有看到法務部也有做一些這個媒體政策的宣導那邊的一些相關的經費可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的這個"},{"start":13957.135,"end":13981.091,"text":"議題的宣導我覺得還是不夠的而且呢你們這個常常都會拿偵查不公開其實這個有時候電視上就會看到偵查不公開的這樣的一個口號來恐嚇人民而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開那麼這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的尤其是已經這麼多年來其實大部分的台灣民眾其實接到"},{"start":13981.511,"end":14000.822,"text":"如果說詐騙集團他假稱他是檢調人員然後告訴他現在什麼有發生什麼問題然後偵查不公開不可以告訴警方這個人民很容易就相信了由此可見就是法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的是失敗的而這個部分的話其實本席認為說法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來徹底的這個"},{"start":14008.086,"end":14022.267,"text":"來告訴民眾珍藏不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的一個要求而不是說接到一通電話然後就讓人民就相信了那麼這個部分我希望"},{"start":14023.048,"end":14043.919,"text":"法務部是不是未來可以加強這方面的說明宣導那麼同時可能不僅是在媒體上面就是在電視上面現在網路上面很多資訊你們甚至可以做一些圖卡然後來強調這方面的重要這警察檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾好 謝謝委員那接下來我想請那個數發布的代表今天是"},{"start":14052.3,"end":14079.304,"text":"好那謝謝部長請回座委員好是今天是副署長是黃副署長您好那我想就是在數法部其實呢這些年來你們有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防治及服務能量的登錄辦法那針對這個第三方業者這個必須要"},{"start":14080.478,"end":14105.429,"text":"遵從《洗錢防治法》裡面所要求的法尊等等聲明書然後要去進行一些能量的登錄請問一下你們現在登錄的狀況如何?我們目前有64家的業者64家的業者可是你知道其實在商業司有登記有多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎?"},{"start":14106.395,"end":14112.742,"text":"目前有登錄的之前知道是有13000多家是有登錄的但是實際上因為他必須要實名的就是要跟我們登錄然後我們會去查核那這樣子的話他才算是合法的就是11月30號以後"},{"start":14124.935,"end":14139.669,"text":"因為我看起來這個數字差別很大在商業是登記的有一萬多家可是你實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家我們目前之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請然後實際上我們經過查核了以後我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家"},{"start":14146.932,"end":14155.6,"text":"所以這64家是完整登錄已經取得了你們的認證那麼我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過這什麼意思這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息然後提供給我們所以他們還是通過了"},{"start":14165.743,"end":14180.58,"text":"有條件通過有條件通過所以他們還是可以跟銀行講說提供相關的登錄的能量證書然後取得一個虛擬的帳號是可是你明明就是當時就說是保留註銷條件為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有這個經過再次的審查之後"},{"start":14188.052,"end":14206.697,"text":"他們到底是合格還是不合格他們符合你們這個作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎跟委員補充一下這部分是因為這樣因為有些現在有些新興的行業他因為他現在沒有沒有沒有能量登錄所以現在我們跟銀行銀行這邊就金管會這邊有做一個"},{"start":14207.157,"end":14223.45,"text":"行政協助的部分只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄的話銀行就不準就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶可是有很多新興的科技行業他希望進入到三資這個行業所以他就會來跟我們說其實他這部分來講的話他現在因為沒有能量登錄變成說他沒有辦法去申請"},{"start":14224.971,"end":14249.567,"text":"虛擬帳戶可是他有要配合的業者就是說我們也要看他的時機因此就變成一個雞生蛋單生雞的情況所以我們您委員您在網上上面會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件就是說我們要求他6個月之內要拿這個人量登錄去申請到虛擬帳戶的虛擬帳號的時候你必須要在6個月之內做出時機你如果沒有辦法提出時機的話我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格這個意思"},{"start":14249.887,"end":14275.887,"text":"所以註銷掉他的資格之後他的虛擬賬號已經取得虛擬賬號也會被註銷掉嗎?是的 是的那所以現在還有幾家?你們剛剛說還有二十幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎?大概目前在十幾家十幾家?然後六個月之內可是他六個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行為?因為他已經取得了虛擬賬號"},{"start":14277.728,"end":14301.1,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個之前有很多委員詢詢這件問題所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄的年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次沒有我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者因為你還是給了他這個條件他還是可以跟銀行去申請只是他6個月之內他要完成那個登錄對不對那所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能"},{"start":14302.12,"end":14310.49,"text":"成為就是詐騙集團的就是委員您擔心的這個可能這件事情我們就是要透過限地查核的部分去查"},{"start":14311.092,"end":14333.128,"text":"所以你們多久查核一次?我們幾乎每一兩週都會排一次我們現在就是64家全部都要把年底之前全部查完我還是講兩件事一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的一個是保留註銷條件我要強調的就是說其實看得出來就是你們現在這個速發部的產業發展署跟"},{"start":14334.849,"end":14357.866,"text":"經濟部那邊可能還沒有或是跟金管會那裡還沒有協調好一個比較好的一個作業方式就是你們這邊要登錄完之後然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向金管會去向銀行端去取得虛擬賬號到底就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋蛋生雞哪個先哪個後對但是重要就是當他取得了虛擬賬號之後他就有可能開始從事詐騙的"},{"start":14360.348,"end":14376.179,"text":"的這樣的一個情況所以我認為說在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況應該是還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬賬號否則的話就很容易就會有這個詐騙的事端發生"},{"start":14378.067,"end":14404.948,"text":"委員好就是針對委員提的這個部分就是針對比較具有風險比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分我們回去就是會看是不是盡速的納入我們就是強化就是檢查的部分然後另外您提到的部分我們還是會回去就是跟團隊做研議好我希望你們能夠在我看我是要求你們一個月還是兩個星期之間要"},{"start":14408.51,"end":14434.979,"text":"這個提出相關的這個檢討報告尤其是檢討你們現在的第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點還有就是你們輔導業者我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者他都登記說他從事第三方支付只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬賬號可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情那還是有極有可能他已經取得虛擬賬號而且也都開始在行就是有這個詐騙的行為所以這個"},{"start":14438.02,"end":14456.946,"text":"問題本席認為是重要的我們不希望抒發部成為詐騙的幫助犯你們要更積極地採取行動另外我這邊也請法務部可能也要再去徹底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙誤信誤信而詐騙所以也請你們要再做一個報告好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":14465.215,"end":14481.885,"text":"我們接下來請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請內政部次長還有警政署跟移民署署長麻煩次長、署長好謝謝"},{"start":14489.776,"end":14513.755,"text":"市長我先表揚一下本席的選區林口上個禮拜我們中校派出所所長成功攔貨一個馬來西亞籍的車手那追回了贓款那我知道這段時間這個詐騙氾濫程度可是我們第一線的員警其實都非常的辛苦那我常講是說要源頭管理那還有就是說我們看到問題來解決問題"},{"start":14515.316,"end":14528.166,"text":"但到目前為止一月到八月的時候有多少的外籍人士因為詐騙的相關案件被逮捕我想我們有這個相關的搜尋統計的資料來沒關係我們直接秀出來"},{"start":14529.939,"end":14553.102,"text":"這個是刑事警察局這邊的一個統計那其中詐騙詐欺的部分在113年1月到8月已經有761案那比過去幾年都還要來得高那去年是921案但是回推下來還有三分之一左右的一個時間所以說今年有可能外籍人士會破千案嘛"},{"start":14553.562,"end":14580.906,"text":"那在在就是看到說有外籍人士當然我還是強調99%我認為說外籍人士願意來到台灣生活不管是新住民不管是來求學我想都是利益良善也都希望是能夠跟台灣共榮共存共好可是有人還是會有這個專漏洞的一個情況我想這也是為什麼我們早晚今天排這個專案報告那另外我看到另外一個數據是下一頁"},{"start":14583.213,"end":14592.981,"text":"113年跟112年謊稱代辦貸款的詐騙數據這也是之前我跟刑事警察局要的資料成長的比例讓我覺得更訝異"},{"start":14595.293,"end":14614.603,"text":"去年同時間800多件但今年同時間有到2100多件暴增了所以換言之不管是外籍人士也好或是說本國的這個詐騙案件我們不是說一直在防範詐騙打擊詐騙但為什麼感覺越打越詐到底發生了什麼事情是不是簡要說明一下"},{"start":14616.901,"end":14637.88,"text":"謝謝委員我想外籍人士的部分一方面就是說我們現在義後觀光的部分復甦所以有蠻多的這個外籍人士他是持這個觀光簽證到臺灣那我們就有發現這所謂的假觀光真詐騙的這種行為所以在這個部分我們也跟包括交通部"},{"start":14638.6,"end":14660.67,"text":"還有外交部我們在研擬就對某一些風險比較高的國家的觀光客我們要不要採取一些其他的管制措施這個部分還在討論我可以請教一下都是國籍東南亞國家還是免簽的國家以免簽的國家為主最近我們有放寬幾個免簽的國家"},{"start":14663.491,"end":14685.498,"text":"這個部分我們也在尋求就是說該國的駐台的單位跟我們一起來討論這個對策那這個部分我們可能有一些比較細節的部分我們會後可以再跟委員報告好 但是什麼時候因為我們現在已經看到問題了不管是數字層面統計層面這都是我們刑事警察局統計的嘛那什麼時候能夠把辦法給拿出來"},{"start":14687.011,"end":14698.94,"text":"你剛也講跟外交部跟交通部那什麼時候有一個具體明確的不管是改善也好、政策也好、調整也好來跟委包我們希望年底之前我們能夠有個對策"},{"start":14699.625,"end":14718.41,"text":"年底之前會提出對策因為我們已經開過兩次會另外本席有關注到一個案件我想也利用這個機會兩位署長也都在我先請教現在外籍人士是不是在台灣可以購買這個所謂的摩托車或是微型電動車而且不需要雇主證明對不對"},{"start":14724.353,"end":14752.421,"text":"確定啦 這個不是陷阱題現在外籍人士在台灣可以購買微型機車跟微型電動車不用附上雇主證明但是我們有沒有限制兩個部分因為我知道交通部今天沒有來但是我提出來因為這個是最近本席聽到我們基層員警有反應的我們有沒有限制外籍人士他一個人可以購買多少台摩托車或他名下可以登記多少台摩托車"},{"start":14755.151,"end":14756.252,"text":"移民署這就跟你有相關了吧"},{"start":14778.607,"end":14798.197,"text":"如果是這個部分還是要財稅單位有通知我們的話我們就會有可能沒有通知所以說他今天你今天外籍人士要離開他拿其他國家的護照要離開我們的國門的時候我們不知道說他到底有沒有繳清我們台灣的交通罰款我們有沒有繳清我們相關的一些"},{"start":14799.838,"end":14817.927,"text":"如果說他不是刑事案件的話是不是他就可以直接離開也沒有任何記錄如果沒有記錄的話沒有禁止出境的話的確是可以本席現在提出一個很嚴重的狀況這也是基層員警告訴我就是說外籍人士現在有一些不肖業者他就直接去找外籍人士去"},{"start":14818.527,"end":14834.808,"text":"人頭也好或說去用什麼樣他就等於一個外籍人士他下面可能登記了三四十台摩托車他都用他的身份證件去購買機車購買機車完之後行照掛在這個外籍人士身上但是用的可能是其他人去用"},{"start":14835.549,"end":14850.248,"text":"那造成說如果這一台摩托車他去外面闖紅燈被開單罰款也是罰單也是寄到這一個人來可是這一個人也許三個月到期了他就要回他的國家了他就離境"},{"start":14851.409,"end":14875.354,"text":"那這個罰單就不知道找誰了那還有這只是一般的正常違規情況如果說有詔事假設他騎著這台摩托車撞到人詔事但他逃逸他當場沒有被攔下來他就駕駛者就離開了警方來詢訊追蹤也只能追蹤到登記他名下的但這一個外籍人士有可能出境了"},{"start":14876.792,"end":14894.577,"text":"所以這跟什麼這跟本席聽到這跟假車牌有一點點類似但又不完全因為他是真車牌只是他的車牌全部都登記在同一個人的名下那那個人可能就變成是人頭他可能有不肖業者他就去找快要離開的最後半年最後三個月要離開台灣了"},{"start":14895.737,"end":14920.025,"text":"那他就跟他收購我可能一台車一千塊一台車兩千塊還多少錢你就讓我登記反正我沒有登記上限所以會發生一個很荒謬的情況一個人他下面有三四十個車牌五六十個車牌的登記然後罰款沒繳他也離開我們出入境我們移民署沒有辦法攔截他這會是一個治安問題喔"},{"start":14924.687,"end":14950.892,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前齁在這個外籍移工的部分如果他離境的話他的門號跟帳戶我們會跟金管會還有NCC會去做一個阻斷那委員剛剛提到這個有關於車牌的部分我們會跟交通部討論就是說我們先了解一下他那個樣態還有剛剛委員提到一個人他到底身上掛了幾台車"},{"start":14951.212,"end":14966.711,"text":"我們說現在可以讓他不用付雇主證明他就可以買車這個尊重人權我們沒有意見但是他理論上來講一個人就一台摩托車嘛頂多兩台嘛但他如果說一個人他名下有50台、30台那就明顯不合理啊"},{"start":14967.392,"end":14992.205,"text":"郭台銘來他也不會騎那種摩托車啊對不對所以這樣子一個樣態他就會是犯罪溫藏有可能他不是自己用而是給別人用那就會產生我剛剛提出來的這個問題我想這個部分連帶的因為會這樣做的人不是一個常態他有可能就有一些犯罪有可能他又變車手車手的車牌車手的交通工具然後再去做詐騙環環相扣"},{"start":14994.086,"end":15017.552,"text":"我想我點到這邊你們這些就是有偵查經驗的人應該比我更了解這個是一個破口請一定要防堵好嗎那一個月內也給本席針對這個部分做什麼樣的一個因應措施是不是讓本席也知道好謝謝委員我們跟交通部研擬一下整個樣態然後我們有對策部分跟委員會報告好謝謝再麻煩一個月內回覆好謝謝那接下來我們請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":15030.707,"end":15035.911,"text":"謝謝主席 呃 有請我們的警政署署長好 麻煩署長嗨 委員好"},{"start":15045.646,"end":15071.499,"text":"好 署長好要請教署長一下你知道我們警政署在114年媒體政策及業務宣傳費打詐宣傳經費就佔了2億3千零24萬3千元比例就是比我們去年多了20倍你知道嗎知道"},{"start":15072.179,"end":15089.573,"text":"知道好還有看到你們的依據我們的預算中心在113年到114年的媒體政策宣傳費的內容是兩個是相同的但是呢多了兩億你也知道"},{"start":15093.756,"end":15105.484,"text":"根據委員報告因為113年我們只備了1500萬那在5月份就用完了那我再加我的這個一倍金1500萬所以今年度是用3000萬的這個經費來執行打詐的一個宣導的一個預算"},{"start":15111.468,"end":15138.664,"text":"另外一筆你是說是用完但是還是用完了你今年編的相同的計劃所以你覺得有必要多2億但是另外一筆我們就是也是業務費推動打詐亡靈就是這樣也編列了9億多比7年也多了7億所以那個效果又如何"},{"start":15139.335,"end":15144.398,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這是因為通過打詐四法之後還有明年114年的打詐2.0版那我們對於宣導還有相關設備還有這些這個相關的一個一個這些的內容就是跟今年都是不一樣的對所以說去年跟今年要來去編明年的不一樣但是的效果是什麼"},{"start":15166.468,"end":15180.918,"text":"效果應該會不一樣我們做這樣子效果不一樣因為時間的關係我跟你說的效果效果就是我們青少年人手一機但是呢結果你的打詐四法跟宣傳"},{"start":15182.419,"end":15199.173,"text":"就是在我們未成年的車手的影片你知道最低的人數啊最低的觀看人數連500都不到啊所以你這個就是你的效果這樣的宣傳的效果還有這三年來青少年"},{"start":15201.175,"end":15225.715,"text":"是詐騙案人數在行政案裡面也是最高的就是你的打詐的效果越來越多如何預防阻止青少年成為詐騙集團的車手就是你的效果這個效果覺得大家我們全國人民看到了你的預算越來越多但是這個效果讓我們的青少年就是"},{"start":15226.656,"end":15255.576,"text":"策略越來越多這樣就是你的效果嗎?我跟委員報告一下就是明年最主要針對是在電視跟網路廣告這兩個區塊不管是你要針對什麼但是你的宣傳費編列20倍但是你的效果就是針對青少年剛才說青少年還有現在就針對我們是離境的外籍人士的宣傳的影片裡面都是中文"},{"start":15256.517,"end":15270.614,"text":"所以你是做這個影片的效果是如何?你跟誰宣傳?是外籍人士捏但是你的影片是全部的中文,連英文都沒有這樣子的效果就是你增加預算的效果嗎?"},{"start":15271.633,"end":15278.239,"text":"委員這個部分我們會再精進就是對於訓導的影片、內容、短影音這個都是可以再做再做精進的地方再做精進你沒有做啊所以現在提出來你在說精進精進你是這個影片的效果在哪裡沒有達到效果所以你還要增加預算是我們要去點出來的問題不是我們要做有效果的事情我們才要增加預算同樣的相同的計劃"},{"start":15299.997,"end":15316.342,"text":"你說話不夠你再增加預算但是的效果就是這樣所以我們要希望的我們移工你要去有這個影片就是要預防詐騙但是沒有人看得懂怎麼去預防"},{"start":15317.783,"end":15324.852,"text":"還有就是過去三年移工被騙了本來是294但是現在呢是711所以這個就是你的錢花不夠就是要去宣傳但是呢宣傳的效果"},{"start":15334.705,"end":15354.826,"text":"是越來越多啦,人家被騙越來越多啦,錢也越來越多啦,這樣就是好過啦不是賺錢越來越多啦,是我們全國的人民被騙的越來越多,這個就是你的政績啦所以我們希望的,我們是不是要有設立一個多國議員的"},{"start":15356.508,"end":15373.405,"text":"就是防詐的團隊不管是議員因為每次我們的防詐專線也好我們的警政署也好打電話進來的話就說我們還沒有被騙所以被騙了才能追蹤"},{"start":15374.446,"end":15378.788,"text":"如果是被騙的呢就是說這個是國外的詐騙集團我們無法追蹤所以這樣子的效果是在哪裡所以很多都說是國外的詐騙集團但是我們沒有多國議員或者是有一個團隊來去因為這樣子的防詐不是說我們設立這個防詐中心或者防詐司法設在那邊"},{"start":15401.42,"end":15418.973,"text":"何況但是我們的民眾沒辦法收穫又沒有收賄也沒有預防到詐騙所以我們希望要落實我們政府的錢也是我們人民的血汗錢我們要落實要有效果不是"},{"start":15420.074,"end":15432.53,"text":"做好人款,而有效果才是真正的編列這樣預算。」很多人都是看的大的預算,但是我們是小市民,我們大小的預算。小的預算你們花的,眨眼都沒有眨一下。"},{"start":15436.716,"end":15442.743,"text":"所以我們覺得這個才真正的我們看到小的預算編列越多變成很多的預算花沒有花在刀口上沒有達到這個效果所以我們希望你要怎麼樣去編列增加預算要有不同的計劃才是"},{"start":15455.879,"end":15480.199,"text":"不同的效果不能說同一個計畫內容預算增加沒有達到效果這個是我們人民的水和錢希望你要落實要如何要達到就是防詐的效果才叫做防詐不要越打越詐變成我們台灣的的那個名言好嗎好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":15483.68,"end":15499.692,"text":"好 謝謝 我們下一位請楊瓊英委員發言謝主席 楊瓊英發言 首先邀請書發部麻煩書發部委員好"},{"start":15512.259,"end":15512.4,"text":"打詐阻詐"},{"start":15515.9,"end":15543.029,"text":"網路平台那我們的社群未來要怎麼樣來協助那我們的打詐專訪規定法案規定的一定的規模的網路廣告平台業者呢需要在台指定法律的代表因為以往我們怎麼罰都罰不到所以在這樣的情況之下我們終於終於打詐專法出來了那並且呢他必須要在台灣指定法律代表"},{"start":15543.969,"end":15570.56,"text":"並且要配合主管機關停止播放詐騙的廣告違反情節重大者最高可處一億元以下書發部終於在9月份的時候來公布打詐專法納管的平台包括本席所說的這些各大平台都納在這裡面所以本席要請教我們有沒有這個決心"},{"start":15572.361,"end":15598.266,"text":"我們有沒有這個決心要做如果有不法的時候也必須要做開罰的動作而且我們的預期效益你認為會如何來謝謝委員針對這個打詐專法的部分其實就是立法院通過以後其實我們在執行上面就是比較容易那這個其實非常謝謝委員已經給你上方保健要怎麼做"},{"start":15598.726,"end":15622.239,"text":"那因為這個部分就是說他我們有幾個執法那這個七個執法我們就是陸陸續續的在訂定那其中針對網路廣告平台的業者的部分那是要求他們要提出就是在台灣的這個代理人的部分對 法律代表人對 那他們目前都已經提出都已經提出是 那我們在審理中在審理中是"},{"start":15623.7,"end":15649.599,"text":"那這個流程你預估大概什麼時候可以正式完成因為大家期待非常的高是那目前就是我們這個禮拜五我們會做一個審查第一次審查會議禮拜五明天第一次審查會議對然後確認完了以後呢就是其實我們是雙向進行啦就是他的代理人就是審查然後還有一部分就是說還是競速的要求他們"},{"start":15650.299,"end":15668.415,"text":"把他們的一些就是怎麼去改善的部分去做一個處理對那請教你們的KPI指標的日期大概是什麼多久時間我們目前是目前已知就是說各家的業者他12月底之前一定都會都會完成"},{"start":15669.756,"end":15687.7,"text":"就是實名制就是廣告業者然後針對廣告平台的部分他們的實名制的部分他們年底之前一定都會完成那我們今天收到最新的訊息是Google它已經執行了"},{"start":15688.22,"end":15689.121,"text":"英國2023年通過《線上安全法》"},{"start":15708.355,"end":15727.144,"text":"他們會要求社群的媒體以及搜尋引擎的這些平台如果有不法,他必須依法迅速的去移除這些內容不得透過這種演算法去推波這個是非常重要如果沒有配合封鎖的觸及到這個觸法的網站"},{"start":15730.365,"end":15749.076,"text":"他呢可以裁處喔他是裁處其全球年營業額10%的這個罰款也就是因為這樣子英國敢罰所以他們的效果真的呈現所以我再次請教我們書法部你會不會會不會有沒有這個開罰的決心"},{"start":15752.386,"end":15771.376,"text":"如果說他們有違法的話,我們一定會移送減掉的部分,沒有問題。一定是開罰的決心嘛,是嗎?是,是。好,那也就是說你們既然法也有了,而且執行之了,也有上方保健了,那在這樣的情況下,你預期,你們預期,是不是明年我們的這個,這個被打詐的金額會下降?"},{"start":15776.118,"end":15792.738,"text":"你們的預估呢?預期效果我們的預估就是明年就是各個部會合作之下明年的打詐一定會金額跟數量一定會往下掉一定會往下降我也勉勵之加油接下來我請司法跟法務部"},{"start":15794.039,"end":15813.788,"text":"那因為過去有重大的這個詐欺犯呢如藍道等被披露但是因為他的共犯底下會這個這個一案接一案所以在這樣的情況之下呢但是我們很努力在抓可是到最後呢都是怎麼樣侵犯甚至緩刑"},{"start":15815.128,"end":15834.978,"text":"甚至有一天就不用關啊一天也不用關就緩刑在這樣的一個情況之下他得以持續的再犯持續的再犯那今年更有出現了洗錢90億的這個詐團共犯那也只有判了六個月到一年不等結果全部緩刑四年"},{"start":15836.325,"end":15854.462,"text":"引起社會的嘩然在這樣的情況之下可以說我國的法則並不是說清欸但是問題是出在審判實務上詐欺侵犯侵犯的例子讓他可以在社會上不斷的來串流那這怎麼辦呢所以本席要請教我們要怎麼改進我們要怎麼改進"},{"start":15863.717,"end":15890.621,"text":"你抓到了你一樣啊就是只有緩刑啊那緩刑他還是一樣繼續騙啊那民眾繼續糟糕啊那怎麼辦我們會因為打詐狀況已經過了齁那我們本部呢原理就是就是對高額詐欺跟複合的詐欺的刑度這部分已經生效了那我們這花行齁因為韓美各檢察機關對重大詐欺的一個犯罪齁"},{"start":15891.421,"end":15896.045,"text":"要具體求刑 打詐專法50條要具體求刑具體求刑那43條44條那個也都是有比較加重或者有提高的一個刑度比那個刑罰30條就依照打詐專法對 我們會具體求刑因為現在輕判的問題的確是"},{"start":15908.516,"end":15922.254,"text":"有比較 這個要請那個司法院來回答那我想我們這邊如果說有輕判的話所以你已經發案通令 法務部那個給各檢察機關各檢察機關 好但如果說有輕判的話我們也希望就是說請檢察官提起上訴好 我們請司法院"},{"start":15923.884,"end":15952.265,"text":"國約好關這部分有關加重詐欺的量刑部分我們最近才有針對電信詐欺的部分有做一個量刑的斟酌事項請各法院能斟酌量刑這部分我們一直有做一些量刑工具的研擬那也希望法院我們也宣導法院在量刑的時候要做妥適量刑回覆社會對法院對所謂的詐欺案件的厭惡跟期待這部分我們會持續再努力好 那我最後請內政部"},{"start":15956.587,"end":15979.92,"text":"如果相關單位我講青少年的議題我們就針對因為現在這個問題很困擾的所有的家長青少年涉詐的人數攀升我們的政府應該要去重視我們看到在2017年首度超過1萬人全國青少年詐騙人數這太恐怖了"},{"start":15980.66,"end":16007.316,"text":"那所以從2019年到2022年每年至少都是9000人以上都是9000人以上這個是統計數字告訴我們但是如果這個是險性隱性再加進來那更更更恐怖涉詐的人從12歲到18歲的少年那一直在增加而且是兩成的比例在增加所以本席要請教政府對於青少年的這涉詐"},{"start":16008.717,"end":16033.454,"text":"你這涉嫌你要怎麼樣去防範要怎麼樣錯失那同時在我們整個求職詐騙人就非常的多孩子畢業之後他要去求職結果就被這個求職詐騙了這個真是苦不堪言在這樣的情況之下包括了求職網站、APP政府你要怎麼樣有效的去宣導先從內政部說一下吧"},{"start":16033.988,"end":16056.31,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想這個青少年色詐的問題我們很頭痛因為通常犯罪集團你很頭痛讓我們社會不知道該怎麼辦你要拿出方案啦我們犯罪集團就是他會利用這個青少年本身他未滿18歲然後有恃無恐這樣的一個心態然後來誘使他犯罪這個大家都知道你要怎麼應對"},{"start":16057.131,"end":16077.748,"text":"我們現在做法有幾個第一個就是學校端的部分我們目前跟學校端在做這個所謂的法治教育這是第一個那第二個就是說在家庭的部分目前我們在整個追究這個青少年色詐的犯罪的部分我們會去連帶的去追究這個家長的責任這個在家庭的部分我們會要求連在家長的責任"},{"start":16080.75,"end":16099.082,"text":"在打詐四法通過之後,包括速發布,對於詐騙廣告的攬阻,尤其是在求職廣告、打工廣告的部分,我們希望能夠透過在網路上面能夠把這個東西阻絕掉,讓青少年能夠步入正軌。另外,也有跟委員在補充就是說,教育部那邊我們也會跟他們合作,"},{"start":16100.183,"end":16127.433,"text":"正常的打工正常的這樣的一個青少年的求職的部分來合作讓他們能夠找到正當的管道而不是透過這個謝謝內政部我想這是橫跨不管是勞動部不管是教育部我希望把你剛剛所說的精進方案你整理一個方案給本席因為連你都說頭痛那我們的民眾家長不知道該怎麼辦好不好你多久時間可以整理一個你們精進方案給本席"},{"start":16128.293,"end":16136.595,"text":"報告委 我們行政院的打詐指揮中心我們一個月之內整理給委員好 謝謝謝謝 那我們下一位請吳立華委員謝謝主席 有請司法院"},{"start":16155.601,"end":16157.706,"text":"以少年及家事廳為主"},{"start":16163.496,"end":16183.291,"text":"委員好您好今天委員會特別安排如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具我這邊其實對原住民來講有一個很好的工具那就是法服法律輔助這個東西有多好"},{"start":16184.752,"end":16199.059,"text":"陳水扁總統上任之後特別設立了一個法律輔助基金會針對這些弱勢的需要者像這個這些年來幫助我們原住民很多很多"},{"start":16200.12,"end":16221.5,"text":"那蔡英文總統上任之後呢她也在隔年成立這個援助民主法律服務中心最主要就是希望能夠去建立一個有文化敏感度的法律服務我們都很高興但是現在問題來了"},{"start":16223.257,"end":16249.915,"text":"我們看到在法服監管委員會的會議記錄當中竟然出現什麼樣的文字就是他認為律師應該要以做案件為主希望他們去減少去部落做法律宣導業務那我就問啊這樣子的一個會議記錄而且還才是才決"},{"start":16252.127,"end":16256.057,"text":"會助長我們的詐騙還有其他的案件對吧您認為呢"},{"start":16259.624,"end":16288.003,"text":"關於原住民族的原住民部落的法律宣導我覺得的確是很重要的事情是嗎這個部分也可能涉及到所謂的當時因為可能是專職律師部門的人數跟一些業務的分擔的問題如果我們要解決問題竟然還要往是因為人數少去做一個解決的方向這個是完全不正確的我要講的是說"},{"start":16289.584,"end":16312.825,"text":"對我們原住民來講您應該很清楚我們跑到法院去的其實到最後他都是因為什麼呢採集問題、狩獵問題、土地問題光是土地的司法案件啊我曾經質詢過占所有土地案件原住民才2%多的人口竟然占10%欸"},{"start":16314.867,"end":16342.697,"text":"這是就是因為我們的一個法律的禁用權我們原住民碰到的時候都是被抓的時候他其實我們有自己的文化慣習我們有自己的法律秩序可是就碰到了國家的法律跟我們格格不入我們動輒就犯罪所以我們很需要這樣的一個法律輔助那長期以來我們能夠使用到的途徑很少更何況"},{"start":16343.957,"end":16352.911,"text":"我自己碰到我想應該沒有人可以超越我我光是柬埔寨帶回來的孩子就120多位"},{"start":16355.578,"end":16383.657,"text":"一百二十多位這個都是做功德因為我也沒有再跟他們接觸因為這也不是光彩的事但是我要說的是我們平日接的服務案量詐騙案很多啊非常的多我們特別需要我們的法律的宣導所以這個部分我就是要來看一下你看財團法人法律輔助基金會監督管理辦法"},{"start":16384.497,"end":16410.559,"text":"他有得聆聘具有法學會計或其他專門學士之學者或專家擔任我們來看一下歷屆法服監管委員會的背景清單從來沒有對原住民有文化敏感度的專家學者也沒有原住民本身的法學專家都沒有"},{"start":16411.533,"end":16439.743,"text":"都沒有所以這個我就是今天來質詢就是要列入公報的記錄我也要求要到我的辦公室我們來討論法服監管委員會很重要啊可以決定很多的決策我希望要具有文化敏感度的專家學者或者是有原住民籍的法律學者專家這是我的第一個訴求第二個"},{"start":16441.092,"end":16457.342,"text":"我們都要說如何遏止淪為犯罪集團的工具竟然還要求說不要去做法律不要去部落做法律宣導我是認為不但不能禁止不能減少還要增加預算增加時數"},{"start":16459.223,"end":16479.337,"text":"我覺得這個部分是很重要的那希望我們把這樣的意見一方面帶回去一方面列入公報記錄然後我也希望到我的辦公室我們來討論如何解決這個問題好不好所以委員指教我們會把這個問題帶回去好 謝謝您也謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝 那下一位我們請李坤城委員"},{"start":16493.24,"end":16499.143,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請警政署署長、刑事警察局局長好 局長委員好好 署長好 局長好這個大家都很關心這個少年青少年這一個犯罪還有這個因為詐騙這一個詐騙數越來越上升的一個問題那我舉這個你們刑事警察局的這一個的這個案子來看"},{"start":16521.636,"end":16530.567,"text":"我這邊走到112年了112年的比例來講少年犯罪這個少年嫌疑人到了112年有10770人那比110年是多了1216人"},{"start":16537.165,"end":16553.336,"text":"然後呢這個112年這個青少年嫌疑犯有44661人然後到110年呢增加了1481人那其中呢青年跟少年犯罪類型最詐欺最詐欺案最多"},{"start":16554.156,"end":16576.422,"text":"在這個青少年的部分的話呢少年的部分的話詐欺是佔20%青年部分的話是佔31.53%然後呢增加的這個人數呢青年是增加了912人增加了9.33%少年增加了524人增加了31.53%少年增加的比例更高"},{"start":16577.458,"end":16597.558,"text":"所以我們看這個圖少年詐欺的嫌犯比這種逐年增加我剛剛講了到了這個112年到了20%然後呢這個少年嫌犯呢常見的涉案類型呢這個詐欺呢他也是最多見比這個之前的這個竊盜一般傷害都還要多"},{"start":16598.257,"end":16617.228,"text":"那我看一下內政部的報告新少年 少年涉詐的主要的類型是車手或車手頭還有一個是人頭帳戶 這兩個是算主要的比例按照司法院的統計來看2018年到2023年"},{"start":16621.89,"end":16646.969,"text":"這個少年的詐欺犯人數呢從3254人那激增到6323人成長了這個1.94倍啦齁那林林總總看了這麼多的數據來看齁那其實我相信大家都很關心齁這個少年青少年齁這個尤其在詐欺這部分齁這個比例是越來越高齁那請問一下局長或是說這個署長齁你們對於這一個比例越來越高"},{"start":16647.91,"end":16673.059,"text":"你們的看法是怎麼樣?好,這個依照這幾年的演變確實現在目前青少年會被淪為作為詐欺的一個對象是有在攀升的這個趨向對,為什麼?對,那我想第一個可能就是因為一個法制概念的不足"},{"start":16673.759,"end":16696.729,"text":"是他們認為說這個未成年犯罪這個會沒有刑責不是不是不會有刑責因為除了他自己本身的刑責之外這個父母親還要擔負法律上的這個責任我覺得現在的青少年是不是會有這種概念他們認為是說可能他們這個犯罪可能就是會比較輕就是法律上的這個不足"},{"start":16697.529,"end":16718.519,"text":"第二部分可能就是對於他經濟能力的狀況被詐騙集團保證獲利經濟上的誘惑第三個可能就是家庭上的教育上的問題署長現在講的都是原因那怎麼去做"},{"start":16719.119,"end":16741.384,"text":"那我覺得第一個最重要的就是一定要讓他有美麗意義要視乍的這個美麗意義要加強做這個一個宣導這宣導的這個層面一定要讓他知道說去犯這個案罪是有法律的刑罪而且這個父母親會負有年代的責任的那以後這些所以這個是跟教育部對教育部的部分宣導部會來做加強"},{"start":16742.904,"end":16767.11,"text":"那另外就是說我們我覺得我們要去做就是我們自己做要去查那個源頭啦我們要查源頭到底是誰來教授來做這一些這些的案件查這個源頭嘛這個源頭也就是說這個集團的源頭是誰來做教授的要把源頭把它把它查出來那另外就是說這個其他的這個如果說有可能"},{"start":16768.43,"end":16794.295,"text":"要做其他就業的或什麼這一類的機會可能勞動部的這個部分可能要提供一些機會相關部位來做配合我覺得最重要的就是從源頭來這邊來處理第一個從宣導的處理第二從我們偵查的這個教唆者的這些的詐欺集團的核心分子來做處理我再請一下這個內政部市長好了"},{"start":16795.846,"end":16813.007,"text":"這個我剛剛也聽了你也回應了很多這個委員對於這個青少年這個詐欺的比例越來越高那你覺得還有哪些部分可以再做加強的啦我剛剛也聽了學校啦教育啦然後關懷團體啦那還有哪些地方要加強因為我看這比例是越來越高啊"},{"start":16814.486,"end":16831.054,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們現在對青少年來講他第一個當然就是說金錢的誘惑是最重要的原因會不會讓他們覺得說是因為代價很小但是獲利很高就是說他的成本很低的"},{"start":16832.475,"end":16852.052,"text":"對尤其他們大部分是擔任車手的這個角色那行則是比較低因為司法院有在這邊嘛我想請問一下就是說目前目前就是有關這個詐騙的這個少年或是青少年這個是不是大部分都還是以這個保護管束或是訓誡居多"},{"start":16860.784,"end":16888.718,"text":"謝謝委員我是司法院少家庭傅曉萱那委員剛剛有提到說我們的少年如果觸犯這個詐欺相關的案件的時候我們現在有分為兩個部分一個部分是少年保護事件的處理方式另外一個部分是少年刑事案件的處理方式剛剛委員詢問說是什麼樣的保護處分居多那我們現在手上的記錄呢以少年保護事件來講是保護管束"},{"start":16889.318,"end":16910.241,"text":"的這個比例最多?一一二年顯示呢我們的這個跟詐欺有關的保護處分執行狀況是在45.62%45.62%是以保護管束為最大宗那所以你覺得效果有這個效果嗎?就是在這一個處分上面有這個效果嗎?"},{"start":16911.302,"end":16935.92,"text":"報告委員我們現在針對這個詐欺的相關案件我們現在司法院邵家廷有推行一個高風險保護管束的事辦計畫因為是從今年113年2月1日開始推行所以目前在6月中有一個短期的這個執行的成效檢討目前看起來是有一定的成效的但是後續還要等數據量比較多的時候才可以具以分析"},{"start":16936.98,"end":16959.27,"text":"對 我是想 這個包含我在內 大家都很關心那 大家其實也清楚 就從教育 家長或是說這一個多人的關懷的團體那當然行者是 這個是最後的一部分那我是覺得就是說 這個你們要怎麼樣去做一個統合去做一個統合"},{"start":16960.15,"end":16978.016,"text":"把這一個這個橫向聯繫把它做好不然我看3月份其實已經有一份報告了也是在講這個青少年這一個如何防止這個詐騙案件越來越多那其實3月份我看這個報告跟今天的這個報告其實也差不了多少"},{"start":16978.656,"end":16998.071,"text":"就變成說這個相同問題我們一直重複在討論但數字沒有因此而降低所以我才會問說到底是哪一些部分還可以再做加強的所以真的還是希望各位回去真的就是在各自的業務上面再來看看就是說這個有哪些部分可以再做處理的"},{"start":17000.013,"end":17010.081,"text":"這個上半年度問的東西跟下半年度問的東西那其實數據一直增加但是提出來的方法都是一樣好 謝謝各位那我再問一下最後一個問一下速發布好了這個我看了這個網路詐騙的這個通報查詢網這個Meta它還是這個詐騙的大戶啦這個你們有這個每天有這樣看你們自己的這個詐騙的查詢網嗎"},{"start":17028.038,"end":17056.173,"text":"目前這個部分呢就是Meta還是比較多但是他們已經有承諾就是說在那個年底之前他們會就是會把這個部分處理完什麼意思?什麼叫做把這部分處理完?因為根據那個打詐四法我們訂定的那個執法的部分那針對這些廣告的平台他必須要提出這個法定代理人都提出來了啊對 他們都提出來了因為Daylight是不是10月31號啊"},{"start":17057.534,"end":17072.592,"text":"我們目前是正在審查中他們現在另外有另外有一個部分就是針對就是這個廣告的部分廣告平台的部分他們要做實名制實名制就是在年底之前他們會做完"},{"start":17072.932,"end":17101.54,"text":"我剛有聽到說實名制Google有先做了是不是是Google它是哪時候做的昨天所以就是說在Google要投放廣告現在就是實名制了對那為什麼這個其他的還要等到你們執法出來他們才願意做他們有在研議好像他們在那個程式規劃設計的部分好像稍微有點複雜不太一樣那所以呢到年底有機會嗎是到年底包含這個LINE"},{"start":17102.944,"end":17113.074,"text":"臉書、TikTok都有辦法嗎?都有辦法就是我們廣告就是都要實名制沒辦法也要有辦法沒辦法也要有辦法好OK好謝謝"},{"start":17115.067,"end":17132.296,"text":"好謝謝那我們下一位請葉元之葉元之葉元之蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前賴士寶賴士寶賴士寶張啟凱張啟凱張啟凱好現在我們請省法會委員"},{"start":17155.545,"end":17179.71,"text":"主席我們先請法務部麻煩部長委員好部長好我想今天這個我們主席今天列這樣子的專案報告的主題那我也想說利用這個機會因為我們這個打詐四法上路從7月開始上路到現在一段時間也在這個利用這個機會來檢視"},{"start":17182.062,"end":17204.759,"text":"目前這個打詐四法新的打詐四法施行之後我們的這個成效我這個我根據我們內政部警政署的這個刑事警察局的統計數據我這個資料是來自刑事警察局的統計數據我們從這個111年的這個新世代打擊詐欺策略行動1.0版本推出到112年到1.5版本到113年2.0版本"},{"start":17210.748,"end":17217.331,"text":"那這個按照這個歷年的數據來看齁從103年到112年齁我們確實這個在這個這個打擊詐欺的部分齁我們這個破破獲率從49.53齁現在逐漸提升到90.43啦齁這是破獲率啦齁那這個這個是破獲率的提升還是這個案件數的增加這部分是不是部長能不能說明一下"},{"start":17243.211,"end":17252.571,"text":"我想這部分那個這個是不是破獲率是不是可以請警政署來因為這個查獲的局長"},{"start":17257.693,"end":17270.618,"text":"處長這個破例就是說案件的發生之後我們去做一個一個查題大案目前為止就是剛剛委員我們從這個打詐儀表版我是從8月29號公佈之後那個"},{"start":17274.179,"end":17300.657,"text":"我們的這個統計的方式不一樣所以這個詐欺的案件的發生跟金額數是比去年是增加的事實上案件數也是節節攀升了對 案件數是節節攀升的那因為是我們通貨率也有所提高吧對對對但是事實上案件數的發生案件數是提升的相當近對 提升也是提升的"},{"start":17301.977,"end":17326.731,"text":"這部分我們署長請回還是跟部長來討論這個當然我們今天討論的主題焦點設定在這個移工跟青少年那是就移工的這個部分我想在討論過程中我們要比較謹慎因為這也避免說在這個討論過程中把移工標籤化這個"},{"start":17329.491,"end":17357.89,"text":"所以事實上以我個人的了解當然現在目前青少年跟移工他們做車手做提供人頭賬戶的狀況是蠻嚴重的但是事實上以我的了解就移工的部分而言他們遭到詐騙的他們成為詐騙集團的受害者的比率"},{"start":17358.823,"end":17374.301,"text":"也非常高,比本土還要高對不對,這個部分,部長瞭解嗎?那個事實上這個移工齁,因為這個是來台灣來做工作齁,那我想這部分因為"},{"start":17375.071,"end":17403.044,"text":"有它的特殊性所以詐團往往會利用這些移工來做一個車手或者購買那個人口對但是按照NGO團體的調查發現這個事實上這些移工他們本身他們本身很多部分他們更容易淪為這個詐騙集團的受害者因為他們防詐意識比較薄弱來這裡防詐意識比較薄弱再加上人在他鄉很多這個"},{"start":17406.506,"end":17421.497,"text":"這個成為淪為這個詐騙集團的目標也是狀況也是很清楚但我們比較關心的所以我們應該要關注的是說現在目前這個有關移工的這些涉入犯罪的這些"},{"start":17422.955,"end":17448.729,"text":"結構裡面是不是有逐漸發展出組織化的狀況的確是有那最近我們在有沒有這個人力仲介集團或者是像這個人蛇集團他們有介入這樣子的組織化的東西這個我們會再注意但是的確是有那個委員有關心就是新北地檢最近有指揮偵破了一件菲律賓移工組成的車手集團車手集團有車手集團那這些這些外籍移工提供金融專務作為"},{"start":17450.38,"end":17475.291,"text":"這些詐團的這些的洗錢的這些人頭詐騙兼車手那也接受這些利用這個通訊軟體來接受詐團的一個指示來取款那這部分我們會去溯源才去往上去追到目前來講的話當然移工的那個車手的一個集團跟那個這部分我們目前是有好這個部分"},{"start":17475.931,"end":17485.72,"text":"那我們會注意就是委員關心的這部分我們會往前我們會跟警察、這個司法局再來說一方面我們要避免標籤化啦避免大家認為說這個對於這個"},{"start":17488.959,"end":17506.933,"text":"移工的標籤跟歧視但是另外一方面我們真正要關心的是他們有沒有這個往組織化犯罪的這個方向如果有的話我們會用再重點再以組織犯罪的來做一個除了那個加重詐欺以外那有組織犯罪的做一個人這個"},{"start":17508.474,"end":17531.169,"text":"這個部長你也講過一句話啦我個人認為也是很有道理啦你說認為說人頭賬戶是詐欺集團的命脈啦你認為說要打擊這個詐欺集團就是人頭賬戶是最大的最關鍵的他們的靈魂命脈那這個部分我想現在有關這個青少年跟這個這個移工齁"},{"start":17532.349,"end":17539.312,"text":"他們大概涉入這個詐欺犯罪大概最重要的兩個角色一個是車手另外一個就是提供人頭帳戶大概是這兩個這兩個我們現在這個"},{"start":17544.966,"end":17572.271,"text":"自從我們這個洗錢防治法通過之後施行之後我們有一個有一個過去是第14條是第一項現在是在第20條21條就是不正使用存款賬戶罪不正使用存款賬戶罪這一條從這一條立法之後這個我們依依這一條這個不正賬戶使用罪來這個這個論罪的比例有多高"},{"start":17574.061,"end":17592.174,"text":"這部分我們再回去統計因為我們手上沒這些資料你們回去統計啦齁因為現在目前這個過去齁有關這個這個相關的這些司法案件齁用這個詐欺幫助犯"},{"start":17594.164,"end":17612.437,"text":"或者是來論罪或者是用一般洗錢罪來論罪跟不正使用賬戶罪過去在裁判上面它一直有輕重失衡的問題就是因為法條進合的關係它有輕重失衡的問題尤其是詐欺幫助犯"},{"start":17620.68,"end":17648.863,"text":"要有這個雙重的故意所以在這個雙重故意的認定上面你要常常你如果這個在過去我們最高法院曾經做過這個刑事大法庭曾經做過一個裁定做過裁定把這個這個行為人他的這個是否成立洗錢防治法那時候是第14條第一項他曾經做過這樣的裁定那現在這個這個打詐刑事法這個施行之後"},{"start":17651.375,"end":17673.516,"text":"現行實務在法條競合上有沒有產生歧義?」這個部分可能要重新再做解釋這部分請部長他這個法條條4是有改掉了那我們會再注意接下來我是請金管會我們今天金管會是銀行局部長請回"},{"start":17683.088,"end":17699.981,"text":"委員號這個我們今天是副局長是不是是副局長這個我們現在在談這個人頭帳戶我這邊就要關心一個就是目前有關警示帳戶的這個機制的問題這個有關警示帳戶機制的檢討這個"},{"start":17706.571,"end":17713.096,"text":"這個我想副局長應該很清楚有關這個目前這個警示帳戶的問題有的說為了3000塊錢的網購爭議結果他平常的這幾百萬的這個帳戶他被列為警示帳戶這整個凍結起來這個狀況這個我們"},{"start":17726.158,"end":17754.319,"text":"金管會曾經表示這個有約談這個警示帳戶比較多的前五家銀行那定期追蹤要求他們每季這個警示帳戶數是不是有下降這個部分你能不能做一下說明對我們都有定期找這個那有沒有下降你們講的前五名前五家銀行有沒有下降前五名應該有下降的也有可能也有上升的有"},{"start":17755.997,"end":17776.929,"text":"什麼樣的狀況你能不能跟我們說明一下你這樣講就是說有的有下降有的沒下降這我當然知道你能不能說明一下具體的因為每一個時段可能情況不太一樣就比如說去年有一家合併案那他的那個相關的案件就會比較多一點現在這個警示帳戶我這邊統計是從110年到113年這個已經從6萬4千戶現在到13萬"},{"start":17785.31,"end":17804.117,"text":"十三萬四千三百五十個警示帳戶這個成長是相當驚人的超過一倍那這些警示帳戶這些警示帳戶有的是來自警政署的通報有的是來自來自這個法務部他們有不同的這個"},{"start":17806.479,"end":17829.327,"text":"他們有不同的就如果說你帳戶被被被列入警示帳號之後這個被被列入警示帳號的帳戶他要怎麼他要怎麼救濟他就變成有不同的不同的救濟方式這部分我們如果金管會這個沒有沒有辦法在這個警示帳戶的這個這個我們比較多的這個這個前五你們自己這是你們自己講的你說就就這個前五家銀行你們要去進行"},{"start":17830.667,"end":17844.49,"text":"專案列管,列入專案列管對象,定期追蹤改善情況,觀察銀行每季警示帳戶是否下降。」這是你們自己講的,我現在就是問你們說,你們所講的這些話,你們現在的成果是怎麼樣?這個部分是不是容我們會後再提供相關的報告給委員?"},{"start":17855.759,"end":17875.098,"text":"好啦 讓你們惠後提供了但這個東西 因為你們這樣講 社會上面大家在關心警示 這個現在被列入警視帳戶 它確實會造成一些確實有造成一些困擾啦就是你有的可能它只是幾千塊錢的的這種消費糾紛 它被列入警視帳戶 但它那個帳戶可能是它平常"},{"start":17876.098,"end":17890.525,"text":"生活在使用的主要帳號裡面可能有幾百萬的存款不過警示帳戶的產生也是銀行依據警察或者檢警料的通知合列作為警示帳戶的這個我有講那這個到底這個警示帳戶到底我們怎麼樣來定性這個警示帳戶事實上在學界上面也有爭議這個"},{"start":17904.847,"end":17913.726,"text":"因為你這個從有警察來來這個有警察這邊所提出的這個警示帳戶跟從這個法官檢察官"},{"start":17915.62,"end":17925.565,"text":"提出的警示賬戶,他的救濟程序就完全不一樣了一個是行政救濟,一邊就是已經進入行事輸送程序了當然我們主要是確實要打擊詐騙不法行為所以才會有警示賬戶這種方式來產生但是這個過程裡面這個警示賬戶它本身目前並沒有法制化"},{"start":17941.331,"end":17959.041,"text":"你們這目前沒有法之話你們目前是按照一個存款帳戶及疑似不法或嫌屬異常交易管理辦法目前是用一個管理辦法作為法令依據是銀行法的授權對那我個人認為說現在這樣子我們這個警視帳戶的這個在全國的警視帳戶這個數字數量這樣子"},{"start":17965.784,"end":17980.174,"text":"這樣子不斷的膨脹的情況之下我個人認為應該走向法治化而且將這個警視帳戶他的相關的救濟的程序你被列入警視帳戶之後相關的救濟程序我覺得要做這個整個在這法治化的過程中把它釐清"},{"start":17981.457,"end":18004.918,"text":"是那這個部分在打詐四法裡面也有一些條文的規定那包括比如說母法第11條的這個款項的返還有一些機制會比原來的會來的對但是現在目前他就是要走不同的機制嘛你被檢察官跟法官列入警視帳戶跟警察局通報的警視帳戶他的這個救濟程序就不一樣嘛所以我個人我是希望你們齁在這個"},{"start":18007.26,"end":18026.326,"text":"確保說打擊詐騙不法行為的同時我們對於這個相關的救濟措施我們要予以完備這部分是我們金管會的責任好不好是 我們再努力好 以上好 謝謝那我們下一位請傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員"},{"start":18031.514,"end":18056.085,"text":"所有發言登記委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關請入送交個別委員及本會委員傅坤祺所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關已書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":18066.92,"end":18067.731,"text":"行政部部長自己解讀"}]}},{"id":"157375","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157375","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752e661db3112400d86868a4ad55ac2447b3189f248a73be6949e5184f6a42873d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"14:27:39 - 14:37:24","影片長度":"00:09:45","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra 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INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":168.127,"end":187.812,"text":"所以我跟邱文燕委員我們當初在立這個國土計畫法的時候就是針對當初我們看到的這一些問題提出了很多的相對應的這個工具包括說我們功能分區的畫社計畫要去引導開發"},{"start":190.033,"end":199.721,"text":"我們也賦權給你地方政府有認定土地管理等因地制宜的作為,也提供你們地方政府通盤檢討的補助。我們就是要讓你有彈性,讓你可以更因地制宜。要怎麼做也全部你自己地方政府決定的。"},{"start":209.793,"end":231.358,"text":"第三、已經投入鄉村整理地區的規劃案聚落規劃也有補助啊。所以我們中央還要補助你地方呢?依法有據的補助喔。第四、過程當中我們都讓民眾有參與的程序回應民眾的真實的需求。所以這不是洪水猛獸捏。"},{"start":232.577,"end":250.69,"text":"這是現在你去的土地管理管制的手段跟法律嚇到了那我們要趕快來告訴你這是一個好的解套的方法可是呢我們現在看到大家都交作業了現在有幾個管制已經把他們的功能分區圖交來中央幾個?14個有幾個沒有交?現在還有8個"},{"start":257.23,"end":259.491,"text":"第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":276.656,"end":298.184,"text":"我們當初在立法的時候就說為什麼要二加二加二因為我媽不是不死人間煙火林淑芬、邱文燕各黨各派都有捏我們就是想到了要給中央政府時間準備要給地方政府時間準備在畫社功能分區的時候都還要再給的時間再多一點兩年捏2015年年底通過到現在"},{"start":304.773,"end":311.156,"text":"中間沒有辦法完成,六年的時間不夠,那你再多三年。當時多三年的時候,提案修正的立委,我們就說要再拖,現在是要把國土計畫法凍結起來,不施行嗎?再多三年,兩年不夠,要再高年。當時就有立委說,不能再拖,不然等一下洗稿、高年稿要再拖,又要延,果真其然。"},{"start":333.992,"end":337.533,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":351.841,"end":369.584,"text":"當然現在大概卡在幾個部分,大概第一個是農地的部分,他們對於這個農業,因為農民產生疑慮,擔心一輩子無法翻身,那也代表了說在這個過程當中沒有了...那農民是要怎麼翻身?"},{"start":370.362,"end":382.005,"text":"是,那其實在國土計畫的規定其實比區域計畫的規定還好。區域計畫法就有辦法翻身嗎?對,沒有辦法。區域計畫法一樣嘛,也是要透過都市計畫審議才能夠變更嘛。是。啊,現在現在法律委員會就反省說嗎?馬上都在變更的嗎?馬上想要變就變嗎?沒有。沒有。國土計畫法之後,就因為沒辦法變嗎?可以變更。也可以變更啊!"},{"start":399.963,"end":403.867,"text":"議員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五年通盤檢討。五年通盤檢討之前,我們給你地方政府說,你現在要做工業工,你看到你這個地方未來才幾天要來,未來台灣整形了,我看到五年之後可能產業有需求,"},{"start":424.787,"end":433.315,"text":"五年之後我有這個可能還可以再擴充需要都市計畫的那個城鄉發展區他就可以他就可以把它畫出來畫完以後使用的不夠再繼續畫都可以一計畫引導規劃"},{"start":441.667,"end":443.348,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":465.642,"end":474.288,"text":"這個增加了15件而地方政府尚未核准的只用地變更編定案多達771件較同年3月10的537件暴增了234件短短5個月大家都會趕在國土計畫法施行以前趕快個案變更結果加速了這個農地的破碎開發區位的散落在各個地方"},{"start":492.401,"end":509.998,"text":"事件包括花蓮的七星潭沿線的渡假村,包括大豆山區的溫泉豪宅。所以在新制上路之前,這一些業者都罔顧整個國土計畫就要直接上路,突襲式的開發現象。這樣凸顯了區域計畫法對土地管理的不足。"},{"start":514.742,"end":534.975,"text":"所以我每延後一天,就多了一天讓農地遭受破壞的風險。特惡農中間放一斤甘蔗,污水排放出來,灌排不分離,給這個特惡農好的生產農地中間放的工廠的灌溉用水來灌溉水源,請地外淨財給大家吃,這可不是南北。"},{"start":537.296,"end":541.357,"text":"所以在這裡我們是真的覺得相當遺憾,但是我在講說我們是不是能夠這樣子跟大家參詳,雖然大家都要再演,我也是,也是表決嘛,表述人沒關係,但是我有一個希望,人家按照規定有14個已經報佈審議的,你就讓他先施行。"},{"start":559.242,"end":561.824,"text":"條文修正草案案。四、 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Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T14:19:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T14:26:41+08:00","duration":449,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.14409375,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.40784375,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.67784375,"end":19.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.58471875,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.69409375,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.11096875,"end":28.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.28784375,"end":41.509718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.69534375,"end":59.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.98784375,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.69221875,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.20159375,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.21409375,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.66284375000001,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.51471875,"end":106.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.84971875000001,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.20346875000001,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.67096875000001,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.34534375,"end":148.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.03721875000002,"end":174.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.46784375000001,"end":174.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.17221875,"end":176.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.66159375,"end":180.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.34471875,"end":181.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.85909375,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.73221875000002,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.01034375,"end":194.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.73159375,"end":187.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.77721875,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.92721875,"end":208.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.79596875000001,"end":210.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.46221875,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.58846875,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.76971875,"end":257.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.08346875,"end":262.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.43284375,"end":271.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.19096875,"end":287.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.55971875,"end":293.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.26346875,"end":304.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.57409375000003,"end":309.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.92346875000004,"end":315.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.04909375,"end":331.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.93346875000003,"end":328.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.93721875,"end":333.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.75971875000005,"end":332.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.02096875,"end":336.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.63221875000005,"end":342.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.99034375,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.22846875000005,"end":357.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.65846875,"end":359.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.22784375000003,"end":366.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.83846875,"end":388.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.81971875000005,"end":380.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.15159375,"end":424.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.51346875,"end":428.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.16284375000004,"end":426.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.37784375,"end":426.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.65596875,"end":432.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.02659375,"end":441.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.22409375,"end":440.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.46846875000006,"end":441.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.64971875000003,"end":443.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.95346875,"end":443.52284375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.348,"end":28.419,"text":"主席,還有立院同仁和行政院相關的夥伴。我是不是先請我們的內政部長,還有我們國土署署長,跟農業部次長,因為我這邊也要呼應一下原民相關的議題,所以我們是不是副主委,這邊我也請您代表一下。"},{"start":30.445,"end":58.596,"text":"那對於剛才那個政委員這邊提醒的原住民的這個部分我也呼應他這個概念那他的概念我再強化一次也就是好像一般人都覺得在做任何的設計或規劃對原住民的這個照顧的概念但是我想剛才政委員的這個概念上應該基本上談的就是原住民原有的東西在國家體制進來之後"},{"start":60.057,"end":61.839,"text":"第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":69.329,"end":75.733,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條"},{"start":97.108,"end":107.596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Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T14:10:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T14:18:56+08:00","duration":496,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.817218750000002,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.59284375,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.16221875,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.980343750000003,"end":27.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.03034375,"end":31.789718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.768468750000004,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.32096875,"end":34.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.21534375,"end":36.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.96596875,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.43784375,"end":44.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.728468750000005,"end":49.002218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.149718750000005,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.946593750000005,"end":56.697218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.220343750000005,"end":58.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.30034375,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.16096875,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.017218750000005,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.57784375,"end":67.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.08784375,"end":70.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.04096875,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.53409375000001,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.49596875,"end":76.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.60534375,"end":78.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.97221875000001,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.28846875,"end":81.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.68909375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.18221875,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.88596875,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.70409375000001,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.56034375,"end":96.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.11284375000001,"end":98.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.66096875000001,"end":101.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.63534375,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.01471875,"end":105.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.05659375,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.27159375000001,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.16596875,"end":109.09409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.95471875000001,"end":111.20346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.89534375000001,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.42221875000001,"end":116.68784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.41346875,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.33721875,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.58596875,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.26471875000001,"end":125.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.45846875000001,"end":127.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.14596875,"end":129.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.05284375000002,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.11596875,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.34346875,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.85346875000002,"end":138.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.01346875000002,"end":141.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.64159375,"end":143.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.85659375,"end":144.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.71284375000002,"end":148.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.77971875,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.03221875,"end":156.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.79971875,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.83346875,"end":156.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.85034375,"end":159.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.51659375,"end":159.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.68534375000002,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.97221875,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.02284375000002,"end":160.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.03971875000002,"end":166.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.48596875,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.59971875000002,"end":169.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.13534375,"end":171.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.84409375,"end":173.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.27846875,"en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INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等"},{"start":336.443,"end":352.951,"text":"修正草案案件都因應應,既然我先請教一下部長會展言嗎?如果按照現在原住民的部分不是真的原住民整個國土計畫法的"},{"start":354.454,"end":371.89,"text":"沒有配套措施之前我個人並不贊成繼續展言因為只會讓有一些按照我們原來計畫要走的縣市包括原住民的這個圖館的部分的被延擋那現在各政黨的立場或者是現在的修正條文是不是勢必會展言"},{"start":373.416,"end":397.59,"text":"報告委員目前我們看到是每個委員個別的提案並沒有黨團的提案所以事實上還是需要有一定程度的協商大概比較好我還是一樣就是如果沒有一個完整的配套的話就決定展延我想這個都不是一個政府應該有的責任說得很好就我們原住民而言因為延民會"},{"start":400.748,"end":418.943,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":429.285,"end":454.34,"text":"沒有辦法解決現有的原住民部落問題的話,寧可展言。」我會是這樣一個立場。謝謝委員您的高見。有關於原住民族的圖館的部分,我有要求我們的國土署在跟原民會溝通如果沒有障礙之下,我希望在12月底的時候就可以有預告。"},{"start":455.307,"end":469.781,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11次全體委員會第12次審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12次審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12次審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第12次審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第12次審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第12次審查委員吳琪"},{"start":477.97,"end":479.311,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"16296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16296","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea24e6619f7e9d11f814968be1351dde78b104c5adbfed68f7916a53d521fd42a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-21T08:30:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T16:17:00+08:00","duration":27970,"影片長度":"07:46:10","委員發言時間":"08:30:50 - 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INTERVIEWER審查委員張宏祿等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員張宏祿等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2275.265,"end":2276.206,"text":"主席、各位同仁因為昨天大家在我們內政委員會昨天其實場面有一些混亂昨天韓院長他有召集協商也有特別說"},{"start":2298.628,"end":2302.692,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":2322.312,"end":2329.435,"text":"條文吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":2348.562,"end":2354.867,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":2376.423,"end":2379.184,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2409.991,"end":2434.907,"text":"謝謝主席我想昨天的這個我們在委員會的時候其實昨天民進黨清晨4點半就已經這個破壞我們的就是自行闖入我們的會議室霸佔這個內政委員會的主席台讓主席無法開會所以是民進黨的違反議事的規則在先讓主席沒有辦法主持會議"},{"start":2436.488,"end":2444.35,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":2462.056,"end":2462.796,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2477.565,"end":2506.713,"text":"認為別人不對或認為自己會輸就阻止別人開會這不是民主的表現那所以像在月初在財委會審查財畫法的時候民進黨也是不願意理性討論使用暴力杯葛議事進行那甚至吳秉瑞委員還摔爛會議室的麥克風傷及無辜所以希望在我們剛剛的這個會議議事能夠順利進行那昨天院長在這個院長協商的時候也有特別提到"},{"start":2507.213,"end":2507.754,"text":"委員會的麥克風使用狀況是由召委來決定。"},{"start":2533.373,"end":2533.976,"text":"好,謝謝。請黃婕委員持續發言。"},{"start":2545.199,"end":2554.761,"text":"好謝謝主席各位同仁大家早安喔針對今天早上的這個議事錄我必須要在這邊的嚴正的抗議我還是認為這個本會第十次的會議並沒有依法開會會議應屬無效所以這個議事錄應該不予確定並且應該要在本次的會議補行確定第九次"},{"start":2566.644,"end":2577.657,"text":"的會議的議事錄。」為什麼呢?因為大家知道說昨天我們有非常認真的同仁早起來上班。那早起來上班為什麼會是違反議事規則呢?應該給予鼓勵都來不及了。那怎麼會用這種方式來,還說早起上班人必須要跟人民道歉。"},{"start":2587.007,"end":2614.886,"text":"這個是非常認真的立法委員的表現請大家不要這樣子模糊焦點那我也必須要說在昨天國民黨團這個違法的攜帶個人的麥克風來到會議室這完全是已經違反立法院異常安全及維護管理要點的第七點說委員不得攜帶個人的麥克風這個韓國瑜院長也在之前也有明確的指示過了"},{"start":2615.746,"end":2635.956,"text":"那如果個人都可以帶個人的麥克風那是不是在場大家一人一支都可以自意的發言了呢那這樣還有任何的議事的秩序可言嗎那如果交委也可以隨便的攜帶個人的麥克風說要開會就開會那是不是他就在家裡開會就好他是不是也可以跑去廁所說他要來召開會議呢所以這樣子推論下去"},{"start":2639.838,"end":2640.199,"text":"規定到說除秘密會議外"},{"start":2655.655,"end":2676.161,"text":"立法院應該要透過電視網路等媒體通路全程轉播本會的會議並且全程的錄音錄影那大家可以去看一下昨天早上的會議現場完全是沒有辦法任何收音的沒有任何收音到由議事人員提供的麥克風也沒有任何錄影所以大家根本聽不到說昨天宣讀了什麼內容"},{"start":2677.481,"end":2701.964,"text":"那就這樣的內容就知道說沒有依照我們議事人員提供的麥克風造成的結果就是大家根本看不到昨天的會議內容為何所以根據以上包括立法院組織法以及立法院議場的安全管理要點昨天的議事錄必須不予確認那我也認為昨天是一個無效而且非法的會議以上謝謝"},{"start":2705.734,"end":2706.575,"text":"文修正草案案。"},{"start":2718.88,"end":2740.467,"text":"我講昨天內政委員會我們召回排定的議程包括選法府、韓中選會的這個預算案齁其中我會想選法法的版本不管是民進黨、民眾黨、國民黨都有提出就代表這個是要跨黨派都希望來檢視我們選法法的相關規定啦齁那總會專案也是民進黨團先前不斷地高喊要趕快審查嘛齁那我們要審查齁那這邊其實"},{"start":2741.627,"end":2744.928,"text":"事由．審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":2763.885,"end":2766.066,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2793.362,"end":2803.35,"text":"程序發言結束我們現在繼續進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第10次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年11月20日星期三上午9時16分至下午5時30分地點紅樓202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等14人練習委員吳秉瑞委員等56人"},{"start":2821.784,"end":2847.736,"text":"列席官員內政部部長劉世芳暨相關人員、中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇暨相關人員、司法院民事廳法官張宇嘉、法務部參事廖江縣行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員李易榮、主席徐昭吉委員辛盈。報告事項,宣讀上次會議議事錄。主席宣告議事錄確定。會場一片混亂,會議無法繼續進行。主席隨即宣告休息。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2848.803,"end":2870.556,"text":"好,請問上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?好,沒有啦,那我們就重新確定禮拜一跟禮拜三的議事錄嘛。好,謝謝。重新確定?就照書面就好了。就照書面啦,好。那我們議事錄就確定了。好啦。"},{"start":2877.997,"end":2903.609,"text":"就照……我們在桌面上有嗎?對,好,大家看一下桌面的嘛,對,對,對,對,第十次會議的對啦,就確定第九次會議的意思路嘛確定齁,對啦,對啦,啊第十次的我們就這樣,對,就所以會議就喊休息嘛"},{"start":2909.246,"end":2920.014,"text":"條文修正草案案。三分鐘休息。"},{"start":2938.405,"end":2966.01,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":2969.946,"end":2994.384,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第16屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第16屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第16屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等"},{"start":2996.221,"end":3018.439,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土"},{"start":3020.281,"end":3036.213,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":3040.936,"end":3053.585,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":3060.616,"end":3078.417,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬"},{"start":3079.277,"end":3107.514,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條條"},{"start":3108.474,"end":3125.06,"text":"文修正草案案。四、五條條文修正草案案。五條條文修正草案案。六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3131.347,"end":3133.848,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3147.544,"end":3176.59,"text":"文修正草案案。四十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條條文修正草案案。五十五條條條文修正草案案。五十五條條條文修正草案案。五十五條條條文修正草案案。五十五條條條文修正草案案。五十五條條條條文修正草案案。五十五條條條條文修正草案案。五十五條條條條文修"},{"start":3177.537,"end":3185.135,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3190.636,"end":3214.212,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳�"},{"start":3215.253,"end":3229.123,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":3244.877,"end":3257.263,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":3271.639,"end":3285.083,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。四、ិლლლლლლლლლ"},{"start":3304.532,"end":3310.936,"text":"文修正草案。」案。四、「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。」案。五、「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":3322.304,"end":3346.57,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":3348.217,"end":3370.443,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3374.462,"end":3393.948,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":3397.486,"end":3423.924,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":3425.776,"end":3451.18,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":3475.095,"end":3490.328,"text":"文修正草案案。四、сколько審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修"},{"start":3491.049,"end":3508.226,"text":"文修正草案案。四、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、cellence審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3520.423,"end":3522.445,"text":"文修正草案案。四、បᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ"},{"start":3533.831,"end":3559.969,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":3575.947,"end":3594.832,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":3601.8,"end":3614.467,"text":"文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。三、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":3617.369,"end":3630.246,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":3632.829,"end":3654.049,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":3660.433,"end":3674.33,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":3676.944,"end":3703.918,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":3708.148,"end":3714.75,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":3750.509,"end":3755.754,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3760.266,"end":3778.08,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文"},{"start":3787.318,"end":3814.525,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":3817.505,"end":3843.72,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":3849.196,"end":3867.493,"text":"文修正草案案。四、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、cellence審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、cellence審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、cellence審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、cellence審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修"},{"start":3868.514,"end":3888.451,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":3907.384,"end":3930.742,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條"},{"start":3932.566,"end":3952.123,"text":"文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3961.476,"end":3974.501,"text":"文修正草案案。四、ymptimum審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、ymptimum審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、ymptimum審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、ymptimum審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、ymptimum審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正�"},{"start":3976.332,"end":3991.949,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":4003.268,"end":4026.193,"text":"文修正草案案。三、сколько審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4030.951,"end":4054.75,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":4065.711,"end":4072.978,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員"},{"start":4093.915,"end":4111.682,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第4會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第4會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":4120.255,"end":4142.986,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":4143.946,"end":4169.904,"text":"文修正草案案。四、ymptimum Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。三、ymptimum Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。四、ymptimum Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、ymptimum Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、ymptimum Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、ymptimum Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草"},{"start":4173.731,"end":4180.357,"text":"條文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條"},{"start":4190.236,"end":4215.155,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳�"},{"start":4223.201,"end":4240.716,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":4244.883,"end":4254.355,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":4258.622,"end":4278.059,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":4279.461,"end":4291.434,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":4293.448,"end":4321.074,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra"},{"start":4326.607,"end":4350.274,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":4352.075,"end":4368.368,"text":"文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文�"},{"start":4370.85,"end":4385.78,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4404.893,"end":4424.986,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":4426.027,"end":4440.966,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":6660.387,"end":6661.428,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6688.879,"end":6705.165,"text":"謝謝主席昨天真的是感覺我們第一次第二次我們都是選辦法大家就是在霸佔主席台昨天我進來我真的是覺得是"},{"start":6706.769,"end":6707.049,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6725.74,"end":6729.003,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":6750.196,"end":6753.639,"text":"這個我們選上來的這個對我們的社會沒有幫助我們就是有權利來去罷免他也是有身份證的人這樣子的話就是我們要眨眼將對我們任何的公職人員都是公平的這個就是我們的主張所以昨天真的是一片混亂"},{"start":6776.176,"end":6781.638,"text":"為了就是要我每次都是我們每次我們內政委員會第一個來就是我們訴訟會委員第二個就是張志倫委員第三個就是我我們三個是每個禮拜我們都是來簽名的三個但是昨天就看到的全部一半以上都不是內政委員的因為我們內政委員會裡面的我們三黨"},{"start":6805.925,"end":6814.071,"text":"都很和諧每次做任何的決定大家都討論很充分的討論所以我們希望不管任何的法案都要充分的討論才能達到共識不是用杯葛的我們希望我們未來也是要用這樣子的討論溝通才能達到效果所以針對昨天的內政委員會第十次全體委員會議的意思錄的部分"},{"start":6836.365,"end":6859.256,"text":"我也認為今天的議事人員提供的議事錄中所載的會場一片混亂,會議無法進行,主席宣布就是散會,確實就是符合昨天的情形。所以我希望大家就是共同一致達成共識。以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":6862.336,"end":6863.277,"text":"文修正草案案。"},{"start":6877.83,"end":6887.822,"text":"主席,各位同仁,就像剛剛蔓越正委員所說的一樣,我們內政委員會其實平常開會大家都氣氛還蠻融洽的,遇到問題大家都可以好好的理性討論思考,然後最後達成"},{"start":6896.492,"end":6900.335,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":6921.172,"end":6947.172,"text":"來處理我們的內政委員會的議程的進行。」所以在這邊我想大家都希望內政委員會能夠未來的議事能夠比較順利、比較順暢的來進行所以我在這邊我在這邊跟我們內政委員會所有的同仁我覺得我們應該是要這樣子"},{"start":6951.836,"end":6970.301,"text":"內政委員會應提供立法院設備以利主持會議及轉播,落實國會公開透明,在會議時不得攜帶麥克風、音響等與議事無關之物品進入會場。"},{"start":6971.857,"end":6998.142,"text":"我想我們以後大家就這樣子來遵循那這樣子我們內政委員會才在剛麥育貞委員說的其樂融融之下然後可以好好的來開會我在這邊提出這一點我相信以我們內政委員會大家常常開會這樣子我相信我們大家未來可以這樣子來遵守謝謝"},{"start":7003.307,"end":7024.483,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條"},{"start":7025.003,"end":7042.071,"text":"打鬥的拳擊場。」所以大家都希望能夠好好的開會那昨天本席安排的會議卻無法進行主持無法開會本席也覺得非常的遺憾所以我們希望大家有什麼意見"},{"start":7043.643,"end":7048.066,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":7074.243,"end":7084.269,"text":"內政委員會的會議都能夠順利的來舉行。我們不要再有杯葛議事以及佔領主席台的這種情況發生。好。好。那我們第二輪的程序發言還有沒有人要發言的?好。那請高津素美委員。"},{"start":7114.996,"end":7132.892,"text":"謝謝大家這是第二輪的發言也是我第一次的發言我記得我當主席的時候我們也是針對選辦法在這邊有一些爭議我覺得政黨之間對個別的意見有意見都可以我們比較遺憾的就是內政委員會裡面引起了非常多的爭議"},{"start":7134.033,"end":7142.818,"text":"議事委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7153.863,"end":7154.883,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":7174.411,"end":7187.404,"text":"在討論禮拜三的事情,我覺得非常的遺憾。第二件事情就是說,如果我們立政委員會的委員們,大家有規定希望第一以後不要佔據主席台,讓大家能夠來這邊充分討論,充分來用,"},{"start":7194.77,"end":7212.694,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、 Naruhodou審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五、ittee審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五、ittee審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、ittee審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、ittee審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第"},{"start":7221.636,"end":7232.088,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人�"},{"start":7239.576,"end":7255.328,"text":"總之這都是攻防其中的一環。如果大家都要簽這些的話就必須講清楚說明白。如果大家覺得這是浪費時間那我們現在是不是就開始繼續開會因為國土計畫法在場有非常多的委員"},{"start":7257.069,"end":7283.162,"text":"連經濟秋穎委員也來了然後呢他們都沒有機會開始開會我們已經佔用了大概一個半小時的時間我相信這個在觀看立法院系統的我們的民眾關心國土計畫法的民眾也會覺得這麼重要的一件事情應該要趕快來討論好不好我希望朝委你們就趕快來您就趕快來決議一下我們議事趕快往前面進行好嗎謝謝"},{"start":7287.515,"end":7287.976,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7296.684,"end":7318.104,"text":"文修正草案案。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員林思敏等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、 INTERVIEWER審查委員林思敏等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案案。六、 INTERVIEWER審查委員林思敏等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。七、 INTERVIEWER審查委員林思敏等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。八、 INTERVIEWER審查委員林思敏等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7320.126,"end":7345.683,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。審查委員鄭天財等17人擬具國土計畫法第七條第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案案。審查委員張家俊等16人委員劉建國等19人委員邱振軍等21人委員徐欣盈等20人委員王美惠等17人委員柯志恩等16人委員楊瓊英等19人委員羅廷偉等17人委員王育敏等17人委員黃建斌等16人"},{"start":7346.483,"end":7364.996,"text":"委員張志倫等18人分辨擬具國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。審查委員陳廷飛等16人擬具國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案案。審查委員林代化等16人委員圖全吉等17人委員魯明哲等16人分辨擬具國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7365.616,"end":7376.498,"text":"審查委員邱益穎等17人擬具國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案案。審查委員劉靖國等17人擬具國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案案。宣讀完畢。好,本日議程所列討論事項,合併詢答。現在介紹在場的委員以及列席的官員。我們首先介紹在場的委員,麥義貞委員。"},{"start":7395.723,"end":7413.127,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委"},{"start":7427.076,"end":7453.778,"text":"好,那我們接下來我們介紹列席的官員首先內政部長劉部長世芳內政部國土管理署署長吳新修署長原住民委員會政務副主任委員杜章梅莊副主任委員還有我們農業部政務次長胡忠一胡次長"},{"start":7459.757,"end":7467.401,"text":"經濟部綜合規劃司副司長許嘉琳副司長財政部國有財產署專門委員張潔祐專委法務部參事廖江縣參事國家科學及技術委員會產學及園區業務處副處長陳昭榮副處長"},{"start":7483.956,"end":7490.376,"text":"接下來我們請提案委員說明提案要旨首先邀請邱奕穎委員"},{"start":7498.916,"end":7499.296,"text":"國土計畫法第四十條第一項原條文規定"},{"start":7519.918,"end":7538.785,"text":"提供民眾檢舉獎金。過去的這個立法的意旨是考量國內的土地使用違規案件層出不窮,但是因為直轄市各縣市的主管機關會與人力以及經費不足,無法對於土地違規使用的亂象進行有效的查處,所以該條文規定透過檢舉獎勵的方式提高社會大眾監督國土計畫土地使用的意願。"},{"start":7545.968,"end":7574.719,"text":"但是我們都知道交通違規的檢舉達人已經引起社會的嚴重亂象警政署現在已經針對交通違規的案件取消了檢舉獎金但是在國土計畫法上面我們並沒有做這樣的修正所以未來在國土計畫法上路之後如果還有檢舉獎金制度的話我想這個也會造成社會非常嚴重的這個衝擊檢舉獎金的法條是在2015年訂定的那我想本席就"},{"start":7575.319,"end":7576.521,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7591.818,"end":7618.972,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案 案。所以我曾經在6月4號立法院總質詢的時候也就這個問題請教行政院長卓榮泰那卓院長也對本席的提議給了一個正面的回應他認為政府應該是一個鼓勵人民互相關懷而不是鼓勵人民互相監控所以原此本席在這裡提出國土計畫法第四十條第一項的條文修正草案也懇請"},{"start":7620.994,"end":7624.76,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":7648.584,"end":7653.667,"text":"主席、各位委員、呃、劉部長還有各位媒體先進啊大家早安那其實像國土計畫法這樣牽動國家百年大計的大法勢必要有相當多的配套措施然而大家都知道相關的子法到目前尚未被期那這已經是說到都不知道該怎麼說了可以說是國土法就是給"},{"start":7674.759,"end":7689.944,"text":"不溝通不作為的行政機關所耽誤了。」所以我們很希望說既然內政部我們劉部長有意願想要趕快儘速推行的話那也要跟農業部來溝通啊必須要溝通因為農業部一再說針對全國農地有什麼堆疊式的補助措施但到目前為止一直說什麼9月要公告現在已經11月了還完全沒有消息"},{"start":7701.687,"end":7703.248,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":7721.098,"end":7724.879,"text":"甚至還要面對高度的罰還高達五百萬這不是把農民當作農奴一般嗎如果假設農業沒有辦法賺錢到時候我們土有農地沒有農民我們還談什麼樣子的糧食安全所以今天本席在這裡提出就是說針對國土計畫法絕對不能夠先求有再求好"},{"start":7749.167,"end":7756.876,"text":"否則硬推改革恐比不改革的結果更糟。」那我也希望說以一個農業縣市的立場提幾項的提議啦,就是農業權應該納入國土計畫法,國土計畫法應該納入"},{"start":7765.205,"end":7770.827,"text":"農業發展權轉移制度。」甚至呢這一次我們所提出的展言就是希望用時間換取空間但是呢展言不是必要性保障農民的權益保障農民財產的權益才是最重要假設今天行政院內政部農業部可以提出一個馬上可以讓農民財產權益"},{"start":7793.114,"end":7794.935,"text":"受到保障的方案。」我覺得國土計畫法即時上路我們也沒有意見但是在那個之前在這個農業權尚未獲得充分保障農村地區整體規劃沒有入法農業堆疊式補助沒有出爐相關配套措施尚未完善"},{"start":7814.77,"end":7830.324,"text":"條文修正草案．全國的民眾對於國土計畫能有眾多疑議,中央應該確實完成跨部會的溝通,然後能夠就是展延四至六年,讓國土計畫更完善、更完備。謝謝。好,謝謝張家俊委員。接下來請徐宇貞委員提案說明。"},{"start":7856.596,"end":7876.109,"text":"國土計畫法自105年5月1日施行以來,內政部跟地方政府依規定推動國土功能分區圖的繪製與審議工作。然而現行法律對直轄市限市公告的國土計畫法跟功能分區圖的期限設計,暴露了諸多的困難。"},{"start":7877.049,"end":7902.167,"text":"導致地方政府執行受阻民眾的財產權益也受影響信任度也因此降低迫切需要修法因應而在實際執行中各縣市雖然完成國土功能分區土草案的繪製並進行公開的展覽但受限於人力不足天災的影響地方首長更替的因素或因各地標準不一不少地方反彈劃分的標準此情況影響國土計畫"},{"start":7905.769,"end":7920.143,"text":"推進甚至損害地方發展跟民眾的生活引發大量的陳情導致政策推動的效率跟地方執行需求嚴重的失衡期限延長顯然是必須的解決方案"},{"start":7920.944,"end":7925.209,"text":"國土功能分區的畫設尤為複雜,特別是農業發展地區的規劃。各縣市雖依內政部與農業部訂定的條件進行畫設,但實際成果卻與現況農業使用不符,導致部分農地因管制不當而損害農民的權益。"},{"start":7940.507,"end":7951.992,"text":"例如有農民會因莫名原因遭指控為農地、農用引發廣泛的不滿。此外,各地對農地類型的劃分標準不一。加上農運部會能有效的協調,問題更為複雜。地方政府需要更充裕的時間進行調整,確保規劃合理。同樣的,國土保育地區的畫社也爭議不斷。環境敏感圖資因年代走遠或精度不足與實際狀況不符。"},{"start":7969.58,"end":7984.807,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。四、 víde�審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五、 víde�審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五、 víde�審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、 víde�審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、"},{"start":7997.873,"end":8023.446,"text":"本席提議修正國土計畫法第四十五條條文勢在必行。我們建議將公告實施的期限由四年延長至六年,為地方政府提供更多的時間進行更周延的規劃與調整,同時也讓民眾有更多討論的空間。此舉不但能夠減少因期限壓力導致的規劃瑕疵,亦有助於降低爭議,提升民眾對政府的信任。"},{"start":8024.326,"end":8042.11,"text":"此次修法的提案只在兼顧國土永續的資源利用與地方執行的能力,更重要的是維護民眾合法的權益。我們相信延長期限將為地方政府爭取更充裕的規劃時間,讓國土計畫能夠更符合實際需求與公共利益,減少矛盾與抗爭,確保國土計畫法真正發揮作用,為台灣永續發展奠定穩固的基石。謝謝。"},{"start":8058.831,"end":8059.153,"text":"條文審查委員"},{"start":8070.715,"end":8072.196,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":8091.989,"end":8111.359,"text":"國土計畫的全面實施,地方的反彈聲浪卻是越來越大。首先,國土計畫法的相關執法尚未全述定案,土地未來的權益義務仍未明確,地方政府難以向民眾說明後續管理方式及既有的權利保障措施。"},{"start":8112.299,"end":8127.263,"text":"其次,國土保育地區畫社是依照中央公告的環境敏感圖資,但圖資年代老舊精確性尚存質疑,許多民眾陳情環境敏感地區的範圍跟實際的現況不符。"},{"start":8130.564,"end":8147.571,"text":"還有地方反映農業發展地區的畫色異議以及農民權益保障等諸多問題。因此為了減少未來國土計畫執行所帶來的衝擊以及民怨本席提出國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。延長國土功能"},{"start":8148.251,"end":8160.797,"text":"分區圖公告作業期程,也就是將國土功能分區圖公告作業再延期兩年,等到完整配套措施及中分溝通後再行上路。以上,謝謝。好,謝謝張志倫委員。接下來請黃建斌委員提案說明。"},{"start":8177.594,"end":8183.322,"text":"政府訂定國土計畫法的本意是在促進我們國土有效的利用採試地適用的規劃方式來達到都會鄉村永續發展的目的"},{"start":8195.417,"end":8216.557,"text":"國土計畫法原定的這個指甲是縣市政府在114年的4月30日公佈國土功能分區土進行相關土地的使用管制但是仍有部分的縣市政府因為土地的權益利害關係人對於所劃分的這個功能分區有異議導致無法提送內政部來審議"},{"start":8218.018,"end":8237.865,"text":"我想為了要降低我們土地權利人的紛爭也能夠強化我們國土利用的效能本席提出參考礦業法的這個規定在重大的情況之下我們私下市縣政府得以申請展演來辦理其成那以維護我們土地關係權利人的權益以上謝謝好 謝謝黃建斌委員接下來請丁學中委員提案說明"},{"start":8255.953,"end":8275.153,"text":"感謝主席。我們各位委員大家好。現在所提的《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。一段空五年,《國土法》已經通過。希望可以有更好的《國土計畫》案。你覺得是政府要的準備好?所以一段十年,我們政府願當實施。過了多少年?"},{"start":8279.577,"end":8283.038,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":8309.205,"end":8313.647,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8339.613,"end":8341.474,"text":"請吳琪銘委員提案說明。"},{"start":8367.025,"end":8375.51,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":8386.917,"end":8406.674,"text":"計畫法是一部為了國家長遠發展的一個很好而且很重要的法令當初本席也有參與提案在第八屆的時候可是八年過去了現在我們的政府才在繳交這個期末作業我們發現從國土計畫法105年1月6日總統公佈國土計畫法立法以來"},{"start":8412.039,"end":8415.78,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":8435.606,"end":8461.925,"text":"在要實施了可是似乎沒有落實到地方那在這個要執行前有一些相關的意見還有一些相關的資訊還有未來的執行方案我們希望中央主管機關都應該系統性的來跟地方政府跟相關的學界公民團體以及利害關係人等等再與溝通而且充分的聽取意見"},{"start":8462.725,"end":8480.287,"text":"所以為了使未來國土計畫執行減少衝擊以及民怨所以本席提出國土計畫第四十五條條文的修正草案將國土功能分區圖公告作業期程由四年延長至六年。謝謝"},{"start":8494.65,"end":8502.117,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具第四十五條條"},{"start":8508.65,"end":8509.13,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8524.858,"end":8544.629,"text":"第七條、第八條、第二十三條、第三十五條、第四十條以及第四十五條修正草案等共計二十七個提案。內政部應邀列席報告跟備詢深感榮幸。對於各委員提案內容我們的意見說明如下。針對國土計畫法第四十五條修正草案的部分"},{"start":8545.149,"end":8565.796,"text":"共有二十四組委員提出國土計畫法第四十五條修正草案其中十八組委員提出延後兩年公告國土功能分區圖三組委員提出延後四年一組委員提出延後一年一組委員提出於修正財政收支劃分法未完成修法前暫緩實施國土計畫法"},{"start":8567.617,"end":8578.753,"text":"條文修正草案案。另外有一組委員則提出在地方政府如果有情形特殊者則得向中央主管機關申請展言。查國土計畫法第四十五條細規範國土計畫分階段推動其成。另外依照"},{"start":8583.28,"end":8608.788,"text":"同樣的國土計畫法第八條第十五條的規定也應該持續滾動檢討落實國土永續城鄉均衡跟治理至於國土計畫相關的法定工作包括國土功能分區圖的審議相關執法訂定等內政部均按預定期程來辦理同時也積極透過各項行政作為協助地方政府並且辦理說明會對外宣傳此外"},{"start":8610.629,"end":8618.372,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":8629.597,"end":8633.081,"text":"議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":8649.119,"end":8660.184,"text":"但是因為外界在討論的過程當中都會有汙名化或者是不了解部分甚至有出現所謂的農奴農地判死刑影響所有農民權益等等或者是限制很多那其實都是一種汙名化在國土計畫如果能夠按照我們原來的進度期程上去的話我們認為在農地的使用上更具彈性而且農民其實是更有保障的"},{"start":8676.191,"end":8692.041,"text":"農地可依照現在的地方國土計畫以及中央國土計畫的方向來做變更。其中各委員提案修正版本的延長期限跟方式各有不同,內政部目前仍然依現行第45條條文所定的期程積極推動。"},{"start":8695.843,"end":8717.797,"text":"並且尊重大院的審查決議,同時將積極依法如期完成各項法定工作,而且會加強溝通,使國土計畫順利實施並且促進國家永續發展。鄭天財委員所提到第七條、第二十三條以及第三十五條修正條文,其中第七條第二項、第三項涉及國土計畫審議會的辦理事項,委員提案內容將使審議範疇更為明確,建議可配合修正。"},{"start":8724.381,"end":8748.941,"text":"至於第七條第四項提案在國土計畫審議會召開時應有原住民族代表一人因其代表性未明確而且實際辦理審議作業時候如果涉及原住民族土地及海域者各級主管機關均會邀請各級原住民族主管機關出席協助審議現行機制已經由行政機關配合審議實際需求的辦理建議維持現行條文"},{"start":8751.663,"end":8771.069,"text":"規則。鄭天財委員同時也提到,第23條第三項修正條文涉及所謂的原住民族土地及海域、部落、部落周邊一定範圍等不同空間範圍,考量原住民族土地使用管制規則的草案適用範圍為原住民族土地及海域,原則應以包含部落範圍且"},{"start":8772.409,"end":8791.79,"text":"部落周邊一定範圍定義並不明確建議維持現行條文另外涉及本法第35條修正條文的部分其中內政部依照第二項辦理執法訂定過程已經會商中央及地方目的事業主管機關原來條文已經符合委員的提案意旨"},{"start":8792.33,"end":8810.989,"text":"至於徵定第三項國土富裕促進地區劃定涉及原住民族土地或部落應該經中央原住民族主管機關同意使得劃設因為本法第36條第一項已將原住民族部落權益納入富裕計畫實質管理作為考量均建議維持現行條文"},{"start":8812.831,"end":8841.627,"text":"至於劉建國委員所提第八條修正條文徵定第三項賦予地方政府辦理鄉村地區整體規劃的法源依據以及明定鄉村地區計畫等法定計畫名稱將使地方政府在辦理依據更為明確建議可配合修正為建議將應辦理鄉村地區整體規劃修正為得辦理鄉村地區整體規劃以保留彈性此外未完備相關機制"},{"start":8842.888,"end":8858.462,"text":"內政部建議得同時配套修正本法第十條增訂第二項直轄市縣市國土計畫中設有依第八條第三項擬定之鄉村地區計畫內容得另以覆測方式定之等規定。"},{"start":8859.282,"end":8876.327,"text":"最後有關陳廷飛委員、秋盈委員所提本法第四十條修正條文刪除民眾檢舉獎勵機制考量該機制有助於遏止違規使用亂象同時內政部已經在執法限縮得檢舉之樣態小面積違規檢舉案件不發給檢舉獎金建議維持現狀條文那同時在本部所提的書面報告裡面有八項副表"},{"start":8886.65,"end":8907.766,"text":"包括各縣市目前的國土計畫以及功能分區表呈送到內政部的時間表以及各項的執法修正還有附表三、四各個部會的機關修正的條文還有到縣市政府溝通以及辦理公聽會還有地方政府的國土審議委員會以及地方政府在"},{"start":8909.046,"end":8924.453,"text":"審議委員的相關情形、參與的情形跟溝通的狀況。副表八就是國土計畫發展基金對於各縣市合定的金額表,總共大約8億左右。以上副表的部分也請各委員來參考。以上簡單的報告,謝謝。好,謝謝我們劉部長。接著請農業部胡政務次長中醫報告。"},{"start":8946.345,"end":8965.09,"text":"各位委員女士先生,奉邀列席大院內政委員會本部緊究國土計畫法修正草案,進行報告,敬請各位委員不吝指教。首先,有關國土計畫法推動涉及農業部事項,請說明如下。"},{"start":8966.05,"end":8988.21,"text":"本部將依循農業部門空間規劃、農村發展政策、協調國土計畫下、農地容許使用項目及規定,並推動各類農產業空間部件,配合農田水利相關建設與管理,穩固農業生產區域基盤整備,促進農地資源永續利用與發展,確保農地資源"},{"start":8993.154,"end":9008.503,"text":"準指本部研議規劃之各項獎勵措施,都是基於農民耕作模式及品項對於生態環境還有糧食安全所作出之貢獻,而非補償。因此,農業發展地區劃設與農業施政資源投入並非對價關係。"},{"start":9014.554,"end":9025.204,"text":"未來農業政策將持續全面精進並依循賴總統國家希望工程政策將現行農業給付政策系統性重視規劃為農業堆疊式給付其架構為"},{"start":9030.349,"end":9057.298,"text":"龍地對地給付確保糧食安全給付生態環境給付還有龍業設施設備補助龍業金融資源及龍業公共基礎建設等讓農民安心從農並強化產業韌性國土計畫法全面實行之後將按龍業發展地區之龍業及龍地資源特性需求進行調整"},{"start":9058.721,"end":9072.509,"text":"關於相關委員所提出的國土計畫法相關條文修正草案等27案,包括國土計畫法延長實施期程檢討檢舉獎勵機制,調整各級國土計畫審議會議會議會辦理事項,還有涉及原住民族土地及部落事項之規定等。我們審查之後"},{"start":9086.496,"end":9104.814,"text":"因為這些相關的提案涉及內政部權責及國土計畫法落實運作機制本部配合辦理那鑑於國土計畫法帶來的影響將牽動農業在整體國土空間發展方向所以本部將以國土計畫農業發展地區為基礎"},{"start":9107.296,"end":9134.552,"text":"建構優良的農業生產環境,促進農地及農村資源永續利用發展,進行農業施政資源配合辦理,加強農業發展重點方向與區域發展連結,輔導區域加工,農業物流處理等農產品價值體系,促進我國農業永續發展。」以上報告,敬請各位委員支持與指教。"},{"start":9138.524,"end":9151.368,"text":"好,謝謝胡政次。我們接下來我們還是要再邀請原住民族委員會政務副主任委員杜章梅莊副主委。主席、各位委員、女士先生以及參與本次審查的各機關代表,大家平安。"},{"start":9162.731,"end":9182.788,"text":"今天本會應邀之貴委員會列席就召開國土計畫法修正草案審查會議進行報告,承蒙各委員對此議題之關心,敬請各委員先進會議指導。區域計畫法公布的時候26萬多公頃的原住民保留地有近七成被編列為林業用地,導致部落族人面臨"},{"start":9183.442,"end":9203.968,"text":"土地受限,產生了建地、耕地、公共設施不足等問題,也造成了文化傳承、經濟產業發展、生技受影響等困境。國土計畫法一法應該在114年5月1號全面上路。該法第23條明定由內政部會同本會共同訂定原住民族土地使用規則,"},{"start":9205.496,"end":9232.077,"text":"並因依原住民基本法第二十一條規定法令涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地及自然資源時應與部落諮商說明聽取族人的意見。又依全國國土計畫原住民族土地使用的指導原則國土規劃應尊重原住民族土地傳統慣習及土地利用的方式滿足原住民族部落生活社會經濟之需求"},{"start":9233.123,"end":9261.021,"text":"建立和諧土地使用管制與原住民族傳統慣習為目標等面向。本會自109年到112年底已經提送了四次原住民族土地使用規則草案給內政部。那因為還有部分條文需要跟地方政府在座討論,也在今年的三四月也邀請了各縣市政府召開了五場次的這個原住民土地使用規則的意見交流座談會。"},{"start":9262.165,"end":9290.544,"text":"也在今年的八月十四號含送第五個版本嚴重民主土地使用規則草案給內政部。內政部也在十月七號跟二十二號也召開了這個機關研商會議。後續本會將持續配合內政部及各機關的研商會議之進行。針對今天各委員提案之涉及本會全管的部分,說明如下。第一個部分是國土計畫法第七條二十三條及第三十五條的修正案。"},{"start":9291.724,"end":9316.554,"text":"依照原住民基本法第二條規定原住民族土地之法令適用範圍皆以涵蓋部落及部落周遭一定範圍之土地。故委員所提的這個本草案第七條第四項涉及部落及周遭一定範圍之文字本會建議二十三條第三項維持現行條文規定。第二個部分是國土計畫法第三十六條第一項頁以明定國土"},{"start":9317.162,"end":9346.164,"text":"故意的促進地區經劃定者如涉及原住民族土地劃定機關應邀請原住民族部落參與計畫之擬定、執行與管理。委員本會建議第35條第四項涉及經中央原住民族主管機關同意能夠修正為經部落同意。第二個部分是國土計畫法第45條涉及公告國土功能分區土之日期展言。本會尊重大院的最後的審議結果。"},{"start":9348.106,"end":9373.229,"text":"最後,國土計畫法將有助於輔導原住民族土地使用取得合法對原住民族是一個轉變的契機本會自國土計畫法105年頒布至今已經辦理了原住民地區五十五個鄉鎮地方的說明會一百一十場部落的賠利有十五場地方政府的人員的教育有十四場專家學者的研討會有四場諮詢的座談會有十二場"},{"start":9374.421,"end":9401.138,"text":"另外部落的說明跟座談會我們的統計大概也將近一千五百場。在年底前我們還會製作懶人包做國土計畫的宣導,持續的宣導,後續也持續的做相關溝通的工作。目前會裡面已經完成了原住民土地使用管制規則的草案,後續會配合內政部依照法制的作業期程共同完成會型公告,持續推動"},{"start":9402.469,"end":9413.622,"text":"保存原住民族傳統文化領域及智慧、保育自然環境與人文資產,建立永續利用的原住民族土地的機制。」以上報告。沙保、瑪納諾。好。謝謝。"},{"start":9418.683,"end":9439.02,"text":"杜章梅莊副主委。其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。現在進行詢答。委員質詢前原力做以下幾點宣告。第一本會委員發言時間是四分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘。非本會委員發言時間四分鐘"},{"start":9443.87,"end":9463.06,"text":"上午我們上午11點30分截止登記發言登記那因為今天是法案處理本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有好那現在進行詢答請登記第一位的蘇喬惠委員發言"},{"start":9473.086,"end":9474.068,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9482.168,"end":9482.889,"text":"國土計畫必須準備好就上路"},{"start":9505.346,"end":9517.82,"text":"事實上合起來就是我們準備好再上路啦所以現在不曉得是準備好就上路了還是準備好了才能上路還是準備好再上路我不曉得現在是哪一個階段所以第一個問題應該是要問部長你覺得什麼樣的狀態叫做國土計畫準備好了"},{"start":9522.805,"end":9536.175,"text":"我們全力把它準備好然後一定會上路我是覺得我們這樣講都太空泛了所以我自己把它分析成三個從這個形式和實質我來跟部長就教我認為國土計畫什麼時候叫做準備好了第一個形式上形式上是各個地方政府是不是把它的區域的功能劃分表已經交上來了"},{"start":9549.144,"end":9553.206,"text":"第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條第二十三條"},{"start":9573.055,"end":9599.031,"text":"我認為這個形式、實質三要件如果都完成了那我們就可以說國土計畫是準備好了部長你同意我這個標準嗎?謝謝委員我想非常同意那我要不要回答這三個問題?可以啊那我現在就是要問你那你覺得這三項現在都進行到哪裡?地方政府現在有八個縣市地方政府還沒有繳交但是在上次我們就在本委員會在講的時候呢已經有五個地方政府呢他確定12月底要繳交"},{"start":9600.091,"end":9622.701,"text":"國土工人分居審議圖,我們現在正在如火如荼地展開,現在已經完成四到五個,是嗎?沒關係,部長你繼續說,我後面有答案。那相關執法的訂定公佈呢,我們可以確定在今年年底的時候呢,都會完成執法的訂定。全部完成。是的,跟國土計畫法相關的部分。好,部長,我下一頁幫你把答案準備好了。"},{"start":9622.981,"end":9623.581,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":9640.826,"end":9656.011,"text":"審議中的其實也還沒有全部審議完成但執法也就是中央應該完成的部分你是斬釘截鐵保證年底你說我們全部的相關執法其實會完成所以三個要件剛剛裡面其實有兩個還沒有完成部長那我們現在到底可以說國土計畫法"},{"start":9661.553,"end":9676.519,"text":"已經準備好了嗎?國土計畫法真正要一併公告實施是制定在於明年的五月一號。所以到明年五月一號之前還有將近七個月的時間。有關送上來的國土功能分區審議的部分其實我們都能夠掌握狀況,要審議完成其實我覺得對我們的政府來講不是困擾。"},{"start":9685.862,"end":9687.883,"text":"我相信其實大家都是贊成要有國土計畫的因為台灣就這麼小我們的每一塊土地每一寸土地其實都應該依照它的效能得到最好的運用這就是國土計畫法最高的本質"},{"start":9711.64,"end":9734.201,"text":"讓每一個地方都能夠發揮它最大的效用我們才能展現最強的國力我們本來應該要做這樣的事情可是從當年的區域計畫法一直到現在如果事實客觀情況越來越複雜其實就越來越難完成但好的國土計畫法是就像人的身體嘛頭就是扮演頭手就是扮演手腳就是扮演腳那如果每個地方都可以分配好的話其實"},{"start":9735.382,"end":9762.499,"text":"是可以解決最多問題並且發揮最大戰力啊。」比如說我來舉例我在總質詢的時候就有說新北市其實是有一個礦業用地到現在都沒有辦法解決的問題啊這個當年的礦業用地在現在早就已經不出產煤不出產金不出產其他的狀況之後它的地末還是是屬於礦業用地所以不能夠使用啊上面連房子老舊翻修"},{"start":9762.759,"end":9788.173,"text":"都沒有辦法用,那這要怎麼處理?坦白說,沒有辦法處理。唯一的處理方式就是,最好就是跟著這次的國土計畫法一併修整,那我們就有機會重新利用編整這個土地。這就是新北市的礦業用地要能夠解決最好的一次機會。這也是剛剛原民會在報告的時候原住民用地的最好的解決機會嘛。所以,原住民保留地,對不起,原住民保留地。所以在這樣的狀況下,"},{"start":9789.634,"end":9792.095,"text":"國土計畫法要不要實施?」我想大家都會贊成啊可是你看實際上的狀況是什麼實際上的狀況是我在總質詢的時候已經說過了嘛其實你看我們昨天啊這是昨天早上我們英哥的里長又率隊去抗議了為什麼抗議"},{"start":9807.583,"end":9818.53,"text":"因為他說二橋地區以前是農牧區啊現在要改成農業區啊他的文字叫做什麼?文字叫做我們這個已經無法耕作的田地劃入國土計畫法農二而且限制更多而且永遠不能改國土計畫法不應該綁死農民新北市政府說承諾會轉達給中央並辦理會刊這不是已經說過很多次了首先"},{"start":9830.518,"end":9852.795,"text":"不可能是永遠不能更改每五年就會有一次做整體的通盤調整嘛第二你做了農業區你可以有的補助和使用方式其實也有它相對好的機會但這些訊息都沒有辦法達到傳遞到下面這已經太慢了所以現在的狀況是什麼你回來看我們的英哥為什麼他們會抗議我覺得他們抗議也是有道理啊"},{"start":9854.016,"end":9879.201,"text":"來,前面啦!前面啦!這個地方我們的規定是如果一個城鎮周圍都被農地包圍那理論上它要變成是什麼?我們這個地方這個地方本來周圍都是農二的它包圍起來這塊粉紅色是什麼?它編列是農四這就是我現在的英哥可是英哥的旁邊一樣是都被農地包圍的農一跟農二這個聚落你知道它編成什麼嗎?編成乘二之一"},{"start":9883.56,"end":9901.778,"text":"兩塊是哪裡?這是哪裡?這是桃園所以對農民來講他就是我哪有什麼新北跟桃園這樣的界線這是你行政區的界線事實上就是我眼睛一望過去都是同一片土地都是在做作物然後中間有兩撮放房子的地方為什麼我是農事為什麼他是乘二之一"},{"start":9904.602,"end":9926.3,"text":"新態上就不能夠理解也不能夠接受啊這是為什麼這個上一次在總質詢的時候院長跟部長也有答覆嘛其實就是各地方政府的標準不一所以要拿到中央來好好審議讓各地方政府所訂出來東西要能夠標準一致部長我們的理解應該是這樣沒有錯誤吧完全正確"},{"start":9927.08,"end":9930.983,"text":"所以我們的要求是他必須要有足夠的審議時間是讓國土功能分區的畫分標準要全國一致才不會到剛剛在同一個地方看過去的土地桃園跟英哥人感受完全不一樣啊並且那四個城市還沒有交的四個縣市還沒有交的部長你覺得他們什麼時候會交他們為什麼不交"},{"start":9951.736,"end":9953.577,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":9975.464,"end":9985.111,"text":"好啦部長,我們今天下午就要開始審了啦,我還是一句話啦,我覺得國土計畫利益良善,但是準備好再上路,化解最大爭議。謝謝部長,部長辛苦了。好,謝謝蘇喬惠委員。接下來請張志倫委員。好,主席、各位委員、各位官員,大家早。那是不是有請呃,劉部長。好,請部長。"},{"start":10012.376,"end":10030.915,"text":"第一件事情要先跟你說明一下最近有一件新聞事件引起大眾華人全國矚目的案件就是勞動部北區分署的謝分署長針對有職場霸凌的案件導致優秀員工輕生這件事是全國矚目"},{"start":10032.677,"end":10060.868,"text":"造成我們現在目前的狀況是勞動部何部長他自行要宣布請辭下臺卓永泰院長道歉並要求各部會首長徹底清查機關內部不容許再有霸凌的行為以及如果現在有在處理的行為有在進行中的霸凌的案件必須要一週之內要有回覆請問部長有沒有開始遵照卓院長的吩咐來辦理那進度如何需要多久時間來統整這樣的資料"},{"start":10062.769,"end":10077.91,"text":"那我本期是希望說,不好意思,本期希望說,之後如果有審查預算的部會,是否也可以提供相關的這些的資料給本委員會的委員來做這個,來做了解,謝謝部長。"},{"start":10079.624,"end":10080.305,"text":"條文審查委員"},{"start":10098.507,"end":10100.749,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":10121.274,"end":10142.672,"text":"所以部長這個相關的資料你會統整給本委會的委員是否可以請張委員再描述清楚是什麼樣子的相關資料就是說如果現在到底有多少的霸凌的案件處理的狀況如何那有沒有辦法就是現在處理的一些案件有沒有辦法在一個禮拜就是說跟本委會說這些案件都有處理然後跟當事人有做一樣的溝通"},{"start":10144.173,"end":10145.974,"text":"我跟委員報告要提供這個資料並不難,但是我們希望能夠保護各自,可以嗎?"},{"start":10172.952,"end":10178.917,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":10194.261,"end":10196.063,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文"},{"start":10210.859,"end":10231.128,"text":"功能區分圖公佈,區域計畫法不再適用。我想要針對在申請中的非都市開發的許可案件,在國土計畫上路後應該要如何處理?是否在受理中可以准許,還是全部一律要駁回?這是一個很重要的問題。"},{"start":10232.108,"end":10249.313,"text":"那還有就是說針對現行區域計畫非都市土地開發許可最終可受理案件的時間以及審議的做法中央有沒有一致對外公佈的一個方法那提供地方政府一個明確的執行依據我是不是請我們署長跟您回應一下這個情緒"},{"start":10251.013,"end":10276.397,"text":"好,感謝委員的垂詢。那其實我們在這個執行過程當中,其實很早就思考過這個問題。所以我們大概有把這個開發許可的審議案件的一個銜接。第一個就是說,它已經這個審議中它已經開發許可已經有調整,它補正期限或展延次數跟檢疫流程這部分,我們其實之前都已經有開會跟地方政府有描述過。"},{"start":10277.017,"end":10300.914,"text":"第二、當然他如果開發許可審議已經取得相關的許可案那這個部分就直接可以就來進行但是也有一種是他在前面侵犯事業計畫他已經完成審議他只是在審議過程當中但是如果他的開發許可審議的項目在後面的國土工人分區裡面他是屬於應經許可"},{"start":10303.396,"end":10332.452,"text":"那後面的項目呢其實他已經有基本上的榮譽項目他已經對接上了他其實就不一定要在現階段就去變更分區所以我們大概都還有包含他的環評水保這些都可以繼續沿用所以我跟委員報告我們基本上都已經把它對接只剩下一種就是說他在現階段才提出來而且完全沒有取得我想要請教一下最後提出的受理時間大概是什麼時候受理時間現在是這樣因為我們本來跟各縣政府談"},{"start":10333.292,"end":10334.873,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":10348.96,"end":10353.321,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":10370.006,"end":10373.668,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":10400.276,"end":10415.335,"text":"成果向民眾先做溝通跟說明,降低民眾對國土保育區畫色的成果的疑慮。就是說,圖資的老做的問題。感謝委員,其實我們每年都在催促這些相關的部會,他必須要定期更新他的圖資。"},{"start":10416.136,"end":10417.918,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":10435.404,"end":10462.775,"text":"這個部分都是看各部會能夠提供的狀況,所以我這個部分是不是把我們過去有所做的這些都提供一些報告給委員。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,那時間的關係,最後我還是要,本席還是要建議中央要完善國土計畫的相關執法的相關的制定,然後中央要跟各部會溝通,也要跟加強跟民眾宣導國土計畫法上路,民眾的權益有完全的保障在行推動。好,謝謝。好,謝謝部長、署長。"},{"start":10469.723,"end":10471.924,"text":"國土計畫法和區域計畫法之間有什麼最大的差別?"},{"start":10500.272,"end":10525.623,"text":"跟委員報告啦齁大概我們從兩個角度第一個當然是從永健的影響性第二個呢是從延續原來區域計畫時代對大家容許使用項目的一個保護我們從這兩個角度第一個把它做一個比較好的規劃掌控那因為有過去的區域計畫時代是不重視規劃只重視現況管制但是我們賦予地方規劃權那第二個呢"},{"start":10527.904,"end":10544.792,"text":"但希望透過合理的規劃審議能夠保護我們的現在的國土。第二個呢但是也延續區域計畫時代對大家容許使用的這個保障權益所以基本上權益都有維持甚至還有在卓與放寬的一個部分。"},{"start":10546.433,"end":10573.908,"text":"全力繼續保留啊什麼人家聽不懂啊我請問一下未來國土計畫法實施之後農地可不可以蓋農舍也可以可以嘛對不對延續農發條例的這個部分都延續這個不用講那麼多啦你就可以不可以就好了啦對不對可以嘛那農地未來如果有需要使用的話他可不可以去變更"},{"start":10574.948,"end":10600.171,"text":"這個就是透過整體規劃的時候就可以去整理規劃開發就可以了。可不可以變更啊?可以。可以嘛齁。對啊你就回答重點就好。阿所以其實現有的農地它未來還是可以變更還是可以蓋農舍然後還什麼幾乎權力沒有特別的改變啊?是。是不是?還有放寬一些權力。對嘛其實沒有特別的改變嘛齁。是。"},{"start":10601.052,"end":10614.231,"text":"對阿,但為什麼沒有特別改變,會造成大家好像很緊張,好像是劃入了農業區之後呢,就永無翻身。我覺得這點要說清楚。"},{"start":10616.946,"end":10640.155,"text":"我家也是有農地的啊,對不對,也是都很擔心啊,大家都知道我來自台中縣鄉下啊,大家以後未來農地啊永遠都永無翻身,人活著就是一個希望嘛。應該這麼說很多人都是這一次會提出來是因為他們期待農地的財產價值要更高。"},{"start":10641.035,"end":10643.919,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":10657.637,"end":10661.02,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。〉"},{"start":10685.78,"end":10694.688,"text":"國土計畫法只是在負責地方的國土計畫還有中央的國土計畫我們怎麼樣做比較好的國土計畫不要讓它變成破碎的然後損害到國土的永續發展對部長我覺得這個說這些都對啦但你說去什麼辦說明會我說真的啦能跟多少人說啦農民的最主要的管道是什麼"},{"start":10710.609,"end":10714.851,"text":"我除了農會之外,我正產的時候,我是聽藍營業的,我特別說藍營業,我老闆就去看電視,聽你們在說什麼,我沒有預算有什麼,你要應該透過AM的電台,他們在聽的那些電台,"},{"start":10731.158,"end":10749.028,"text":"你要讓大家知道啊。好,我們來想辦法,來多做溝通。對,不是。透過委員所說的拉基友。他們只聽那個啊。AM。對啊,他們只聽那個啊。啊你再講那麼多,對不對。他哪有時間來聽你說明。就盡量用他們的語言來講。對,我就要講用他們的語言。啊你來說明會也是講一些官話,他們聽不懂啊。龍一龍那什麼。我剛剛講那些重點讓他們知道嘛。好。我覺得這個才是重要。"},{"start":10760.114,"end":10762.516,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":10780.885,"end":10795.851,"text":"因為他是舉一個農地出租做光電板的案例用這樣的概念去那其實這在這整個全世界來講他們所引用的不管是英國或是後來提到了美國其實他都是一個"},{"start":10796.791,"end":10814.089,"text":"很早期提出來但是後來都已經修正或限縮甚至大部分都是計畫區為主就是因為在過程當中已經發現諸多不合理的現象或被扭曲的現象所以在台灣從來都不是以這樣的概念"},{"start":10814.729,"end":10818.671,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":10835.598,"end":10837.58,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":10861.977,"end":10868.141,"text":"事實上在美國的確也是發生這樣的問題。也就是說他透過一個把他商品化,把發展權商品化了以後,就會發生這種市場扭曲的問題。就是草作,價格草作上來,然後變成圈地買賣。那圈地買賣以後變成農民才是真正喪失他。"},{"start":10890.983,"end":10915.963,"text":"自主耕作自主以後去納入開發的這樣一個權益。重點是你要跟農民講啊啊如果這樣的話人家便宜就來買你的農地你的農地現在沒有價值結果每年40萬結果錢被誰賺走這個才是重點在美國就是野方財團就直接去收購你如果這樣的話農民會損失很多捏40萬捏我比放在銀行定存還高欸對不對我個人覺得這個是不大對的捏"},{"start":10919.606,"end":10935.435,"text":"對,跟我們的立法宗旨跟農業部要保護農民的是完全不對的捏。我想接下來我們會整理一些有關這一方面的這個,不管是他們提到了國外的還是國內在相關的。不是接下來啦,主席不好意思喔,不是接下來,今天就要討論了,你今天就要把這些問題講給大家聽了耶,部長。"},{"start":10940.559,"end":10941.58,"text":"財政委員財政委員財政委員財政委員財政委員財政委員財政委員財政委員"},{"start":10965.58,"end":10972.208,"text":"桃園市桃竹苗這個矽谷大開發也沒有農地或者農地會變成建地或工業用地那這些貸金要補助給誰按照他們所謂的農業發展權的概念要補助給農地很多的地方那怎麼補助過去按照剛剛我們署長所說的在美國這樣子的一個方法叫TDR"},{"start":10984.683,"end":10995.995,"text":"這個TDR是高達一千英畝以上才要做TDR台灣哪有那個土地是有一千英畝大概跟宮廷差不多所以引用這個概念是一個非常落伍的概念何況這個概念是1981年提出來如果有的話現在美國就如火如荼在推動"},{"start":11000.299,"end":11002.24,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":11030.802,"end":11031.584,"text":"如果這個要入法是在國土計畫法嗎?還是在農業部的相關的條例?"},{"start":11038.339,"end":11045.764,"text":"我們的行政單位沒有提這樣子的一個修正法律我知道啦對行政單位沒有放在國土計畫法但是還沒有到我們委員會來對我個人認為啦如果要真的要這個農業權生存權的概念其實這個是要農業部他如何去輔導農民或什麼應該是入在農業部的相關法令而不是入在區域計畫區域計畫法就是一個區域計畫法的精神跟這個是不相干的啦我個人是這樣認為啦"},{"start":11067.279,"end":11075.224,"text":"修法也要修對地方啦!對不對部長?我同意委員的看法。接下來請黃婕委員"},{"start":11095.22,"end":11099.561,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 Naruhodou審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11119.106,"end":11131.963,"text":"包括本來我們知道的是新北、桃園、苗栗、台中、彰化、南投、雲林跟台東都還沒有繳交國土功能的分區圖但是現在是不是也有最新的剩下四個縣市沒有繳交是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":11135.746,"end":11157.996,"text":"當然目前來講我們在持續的詢問包含還有上次這個公聽會大概新北、桃園、彰化、苗栗、臺東大概都有說明他們在年底前會提送但是這個都要等到12月才有辦法確認如果到時候沒有送接我們可能就會再繼續溝通再繼續希望他們趕快提送"},{"start":11158.826,"end":11159.046,"text":"條文審查委員"},{"start":11180.082,"end":11185.066,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢,我想委員非常了解這樣狀況,確實沒有錯,現在國土計畫法仍然有兩個到三個縣市沒有告訴我們確切要送上來的日期,那如果沒有送的話會變成在我們國土計畫法裡面有一條叫做一併公告,"},{"start":11195.774,"end":11207.263,"text":"一併公告到目前為止我們所詢問如果法治單位就是國土功能分區如果我們一併公告的話那大概這一條就沒有辦法那個完全適用那我們就會碰到必須要修法要不要延遲的這個問題但是我們認為說如果延期或是延遲而沒有其他相關的配套措施的話只是把問題無限制往後延"},{"start":11216.59,"end":11218.571,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":11244.264,"end":11253.62,"text":"那我覺得現在最重要的問題還是說如果真的分批上路了會不會造成各縣市有標準不一的狀況那是不是會衍生更多的問題"},{"start":11255.733,"end":11273.193,"text":"第一、如果已經送上來的15個縣市的話我們現在當然都是在審議當中沒有問題那沒有送上來部分的話我們目前比較大的困擾就是說如果未來有國土計畫需要審議有跨縣市的話我們只能去參照他們已經送到內政部的國土計畫"},{"start":11274.394,"end":11274.874,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11293.564,"end":11293.945,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11309.345,"end":11316.828,"text":"這也是我很擔心的,我不希望說最後因為有一些縣市沒有繳交然後變成是該區的民眾反而權益有受損的情況。所以這也是我覺得現在必須要鼓勵所有的縣市在統一的時間內大家一起好好的用統一的標準來做討論,非常重要的關鍵。"},{"start":11328.573,"end":11338.743,"text":"條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具"},{"start":11353.897,"end":11356.198,"text":"非常謝謝這個黃委員的這個垂詢其實是這樣子前幾天有某一個縣市地方政府他們就提到叫TDRTDR就是我們把它翻譯成農業發展權開發權的概念它是在移轉的是一種變成開發"},{"start":11371.663,"end":11389.969,"text":"當農地變成是開發的時候我相信以農民他們的專注是在農業發展對於土地開發者用盡各種的手段手法要讓他做開發移轉的時候其實農地或者是農民本身他的權益反而是受限的所以我為什麼提出他是一個不合時宜的概念第一個他是1981年美國所提出來的"},{"start":11392.51,"end":11394.093,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":11409.053,"end":11409.833,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":11433.567,"end":11435.669,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":11462.13,"end":11462.931,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11481.874,"end":11482.214,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十四條"},{"start":11496.229,"end":11511.029,"text":"我想黃委員非常了解我們對於青農或者是對於這個有志發展農業的這個朋友我們一定會盡我們全力來幫忙跟農業部一起來推動但是我們也不希望說這種TDR的概念被無限上綱而且轉變成說所謂的叫特別犧牲的補償條款"},{"start":11514.213,"end":11533.807,"text":"其實特別犧牲的部分看起來好像是對農民特別犧牲而且變成是對農地的一個限制但是特別犧牲這個名詞使用在TDR的概念上面剛剛好相反反而是把農地這個判的完全無法動所以我才說它是變成非常僵固的一個土地轉移的概念好謝謝部長好那之後當然我還是希望農業部也有來嘛"},{"start":11538.831,"end":11555.428,"text":"對,好,那我希望農業部就是你們現在還是有努力的要做一些配套的措施,包括農業堆疊式集覆的架構,還有農政資源的分級投入,這個我希望你們要再更積極的來宣導以及把你們現在所有手上的這些資訊都要讓農民知道好嗎?"},{"start":11556.889,"end":11557.91,"text":"對於國土計畫法所有非常詳細的架構。"},{"start":11575.433,"end":11589.602,"text":"我們會再努力來辦,因為目前已經辦了158場,有8,890位的參與,農民來參與,當然這個還是要再加強來。是的,我覺得這是農業部的責任,好嗎?謝謝,我們會全力來辦,謝謝。好,謝謝黃婕委員。接下來請黃建斌委員。"},{"start":11608.268,"end":11609.73,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文宣告"},{"start":11620.66,"end":11648.218,"text":"部長針對國土計畫法應該是本席在內政委員會第四次來針對這個議題來就來跟部長一起解析改那我想國土計畫法的他是以計畫引導我們整個國土的發展嘛阿我們計畫的目標是什麼就是希望能夠讓我們的土地安全有序和諧的發展下去嘛對不對阿我們現在的建戶內容不顧民怨一意孤行部長覺得還有機會有序跟和諧嗎"},{"start":11649.97,"end":11665.822,"text":"面對國土計畫法就是說政府每次都是依法行政依法行政那我們目標要如期的上路如果我們內政部真的這麼認真執行依法行政當時應該就好好的監督我們委員會來編列預算的部分不會造成那麼多的糾紛"},{"start":11666.903,"end":11672.107,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":11694.802,"end":11722.754,"text":"最高4千多公頃,將近10分之一,我們中央要核准。這是否對其他我管理各個配套的管理都重要?中央因為我們沒有一個明確的標準跟配套,那其他的縣政府要怎麼接受?這個我想也是因為這個原因很多縣政府到現在都沒有來提交。第二個問題就是說我們缺乏配套的措施,因為重新到我們農民的權益,"},{"start":11724.275,"end":11748.713,"text":"我講政府為了要永續的推展農業我們認為保留優良的農地就能夠來達到但是部長其實你忘記了一件事就是農民未來到底有沒有體力來耕作他有沒有意願繼續來耕作我講不是把土地化作農一農二之後就可以達到永續農業的目標我講國土計畫法要能夠落實一定要讓地方充分的來溝通而且還要有相關的配套措施"},{"start":11750.253,"end":11768.671,"text":"那我想況且立法院預算中心的這個中央政府總預算的整體評估報告也指出我們內政部應該定的這個九項執法年底才能夠完成我想將十時級公告的這個國土功能分區土的期限由四年延到六年就是希望能夠守護民眾的這個權益"},{"start":11769.992,"end":11782.314,"text":"如果政策在缺乏溝通的跟配套之下我們倉促的強硬的上路一定會受害到我們台灣農業、美台發展和尖閣我們國土的整個保障力感不同意"},{"start":11784.332,"end":11808.481,"text":"有關臺東的部分我是不是可以請我們署長還有請農業部的次長跟您回應一下但是我還是要跟那個委員報告一下其實我們都很努力在溝通但是到包括到地方政府去溝通有的時候是督發局有的時候是農業局有的時候是地政局出來溝通那回去他報告給他們縣長跟市長的答案是什麼我們都不知道所以我們才覺得溝通確實是要因地制宜而且要滾動式那這點我們還是其實加強當中"},{"start":11810.642,"end":11813.864,"text":"事由．審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":11835.077,"end":11847.424,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計"},{"start":11854.605,"end":11871.164,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員吳�"},{"start":11872.671,"end":11875.434,"text":"事由．審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11888.271,"end":11891.453,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":11905.644,"end":11916.388,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11935.823,"end":11960.622,"text":"謝謝署長也很詳細的這個說明我想本席還是要強調我們政府可以淪為口號政府啦我們都說金、碑、寡、照、狗也貼貼我們的人民但是剛才權益衝擊的時候不要再用那個我們是依法行政所以貝省真的不知道這麼多他就覺得我的款項太嚴重了我說其實這個地我就在整個我們朝廷當時很多民眾歡迎的前期都是這樣他真的很開心說我的土地未來要怎麼整個"},{"start":11965.405,"end":11969.469,"text":"我擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條"},{"start":11986.423,"end":11994.929,"text":"那一項也是希望我們政府能夠多多聽聽民意,然後多多來體恤我們老百姓。以上之詢,謝謝部長,也謝謝署長跟次長,謝謝。好,謝謝黃建斌委員。好,接下來請王美惠委員。主席,我們請保定國庭號國土署署長。"},{"start":12016.638,"end":12017.919,"text":"文修正草案案。"},{"start":12034.246,"end":12053.051,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政"},{"start":12062.415,"end":12064.256,"text":"議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":12084.531,"end":12090.375,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人�"},{"start":12114.053,"end":12117.395,"text":"委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條"},{"start":12141.659,"end":12141.959,"text":"事由委員吳琪銘提起"},{"start":12154.028,"end":12156.829,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事宜﹑財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":12174.468,"end":12180.45,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":12202.97,"end":12215.017,"text":"全體過去的鄉村地區居民可以讓有一些土地開發幾個月的這個款頁。來。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個款頁。�"},{"start":12231.687,"end":12242.515,"text":"所以為什麼過去,過去是不關關的好壞啦,因為開的結尾就是一個...到現在有關的,關的好壞現在就變成說不是關的問題,是說我們是在這個完喻的正頭,主委,可以開始做這個規劃,這樣的話呢,可以讓這個鄉村地區,因為我們這個政客所在,很多我們在說的,人口多,因為土地..."},{"start":12255.603,"end":12261.508,"text":"所以你現在說的就是北省的黨員覺得說有關的沒關的,如果中央要做的跟黨員政府要做的,未來這個地會更加糟糕,因為北省就是反而說,跟我的地,"},{"start":12274.057,"end":12276.418,"text":"事由．審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":12290.004,"end":12295.147,"text":"因為這段時間可能沒辦法解釋得很清楚是最主要北省最反落的我們盡量去解釋給地方可以去選擇去那裡的農民說尤其我那陣子的就是說不管我們有煙還是沒有煙像剛才蘇說的有四、五個縣"},{"start":12317.985,"end":12325.195,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":12337.196,"end":12337.336,"text":"委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":12352.78,"end":12353.061,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":12370.822,"end":12376.443,"text":"因為他們本來在那四年前就已經把他們的國土計畫、管制的國土計畫都已經送來中央啊。所以我們都可以對照,說他們當初的時候跟現在的功能分區圖對還是不對。這樣補充我直接來請教一下,他們這三次的管制,兩次的管制,那間次九四月三十五日後,你,我們,"},{"start":12396.687,"end":12399.431,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12405.595,"end":12416.3,"text":"管理會合法嗎?會太順嗎?會太順嗎?我要跟委員講的部分就是說因為整個全國的國土計畫它就是在限制說全國譬如說農地它的上下限是多少那如果你已經交上來的話呢我們就可以先做這個管理譬如說你在農地多少、建地多少可以做一個比較好配合國土計畫配合中台的這個公建線那它如果不夠的話就變成它不參與這是一種公法"},{"start":12435.45,"end":12435.67,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12458.721,"end":12466.987,"text":"一併要不要拿掉的部分的話就是必須要配套措施也必須要每個縣市政府都同意要不然我們會對不起已經送上國土計畫功能分區圖到內政部來審查了這些縣市政府因為他們也很辛苦他們的公聽會、說明會、演講等等也都是上百上千場的因為北京我現在就是說"},{"start":12480.376,"end":12480.876,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12507.538,"end":12509.538,"text":"所以我跟吳孟說,我們是不是擬一個,要不然擬不是遙遙無期說一直擬、一直擬是不是要有一個牽制,在這兩三個月要如何處理才是最重要啦。不然說擬的時候,你我想法都一樣,如果擬,因為擬不完我們也沒辦法去完成"},{"start":12532.583,"end":12532.783,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":12550.258,"end":12550.558,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12565.425,"end":12567.867,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":12594.968,"end":12595.429,"text":"條文審查委員王美惠委員"},{"start":12611.311,"end":12639.845,"text":"謝謝,有請部長還有署長還有園民會的副主委請部長、署長還有園民會的杜章副主委杜章副主委部長好,11月13號我在這邊質詢的時候針對國土計畫法有可能沒有辦法如期上路這會影響到援助民族土地使用規則公佈施行的議題當時你在這邊也向我承諾過你會嚴議來處理也會嚴議有配套的措施"},{"start":12640.325,"end":12657.749,"text":"今天我們就要審查國土計畫法的修正草案了我也提出了修正動議就是在第45條我要刪除一併公告這樣子限制的文字請問一下研議的結果是什麼部長跟園民會你們有什麼意見報告委員"},{"start":12662.031,"end":12677.796,"text":"您剛有提到說要修正45條把一併這兩個字一併公告把它就取消掉了對沒錯那但是我記得我在上一次也是回應這個高金委員的部分是提到說如果一併要拿掉的話必須要有配套的其他條文對所以我就說對像我剛剛所說的"},{"start":12679.517,"end":12680.338,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":12709.241,"end":12710.041,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12734.068,"end":12735.069,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":12753.61,"end":12760.955,"text":"我多次在這邊協調還有八月份的時候也召開了部落住宅合法化來推動研討會議之後我們原住民族地區也已經制定了初步的規劃方案我們要請部長來持續關注而且要協助來解決推動原住民族土地相關的問題"},{"start":12781.249,"end":12800.386,"text":"那在這裡我有看到國土署在2月17號的新聞稿指出他上面寫說國內首部納入援助民族諮商同意機制的空間規劃法令為使得原鄉青年可以返鄉發展特色產業本法也賦予地方政府"},{"start":12801.047,"end":12827.676,"text":"可以依據實際的使用情形定定因地制宜的土地使用管制規定,以符合原住民族轉型正義還有使用需求,對吧?國土署。」國土署你們跟原民會的橫向合作之下呢,我相信國土計畫的實施應該是有利我們的族人會相發展的,對吧?好,接著我就要問一下了,國土功能分區劃設之後,會不會影響地價稅?"},{"start":12830.501,"end":12832.483,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":12850.028,"end":12854.069,"text":"因為這已經引起了部落的族人有點恐慌所以我在這邊可不可以要求原民會你們不可以講說可能會因為這樣子模擬的可能的答案對部落或者是想要返鄉的青年他會造成不當的恐慌"},{"start":12876.693,"end":12891.83,"text":"所以我建議原民會你們要請相關稅務機關來試算,要讓族人清楚了解實際可能會發生的狀況好不好。跟委員大概簡單說明,就是說我們的考量是說,我們未來有很多的地方會化成農事。"},{"start":12892.45,"end":12892.871,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12907.162,"end":12907.943,"text":"文修正草案案。"},{"start":12926.665,"end":12947.658,"text":"我要求你這樣子寫清楚因為可能會實際上可能會發生的狀況你比我還清楚啦因為你管理原住民的土管處管理了很多年了所以你要交代一下你們的現在的土管處的處長會發生什麼樣的狀況請他試算出來有可能會交多少錢不要引起恐慌"},{"start":12948.339,"end":12958.059,"text":"另外,在你的問答集有提到,部落如果有特殊的需求也可以透過鄉村地區整體規劃來規劃部落需求的用地,是不是這樣?"},{"start":12960.849,"end":12986.698,"text":"對。因為當時就有講說在席老不能說有些地方我們自然化的這個分區他還是要做鄉村區的規劃來開發。有寫得很清楚嘛,對吧?我記得十月份的你們最新資料有顯示原住民族的人口有50.96%都涉及在都會區。如果考慮人在集不在的狀況,實際居住在都會區的人口其實早已經超過部落的六成以上,沒有錯吧?"},{"start":12989.289,"end":13003.964,"text":"所以目前想要返鄉發展特色產業的青年真的也不少吧?如果國土署如果你們也支持我們原鄉青年返鄉創業跟發展特色產業的話我這邊有具體的建議部長"},{"start":13005.52,"end":13005.68,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13036.3,"end":13061.189,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,其實大概就是我所說的所謂的鄉村整體規劃,我是不是請署長跟您簡便回答一下?不好意思,請召委再給一點時間,好嗎?謝謝。感謝,就是我們其實從之前的案例大概就是已經努力在推,我們希望每個部落到時候能夠針對自己的發展需求去訂立鄉村地域整體規劃,未來就可以落實到所委員所講的,它就是未來的成長發展。"},{"start":13061.869,"end":13063.53,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":13083.522,"end":13104.748,"text":"對,現在的確就是可以五年通盤檢討一次,對,而且他可以自己彈性的調整那個內容。好,另外我今天有提出三項的附帶決議,待會也請內政部和園民會你們看一下,我也希望你們能夠正視原住民族的需求來支持這些提案好不好,然後也支持原住民的土地轉型建議。謝謝,謝謝部長、署長還有園民會的副主委,謝謝。"},{"start":13112.129,"end":13128.314,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期"},{"start":13145.421,"end":13147.222,"text":"報告委員我們已經辦了158場那有將近9000位的農民參與那我們往後還要再繼續來辦理"},{"start":13175.27,"end":13177.031,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":13204.079,"end":13209.743,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":13232.817,"end":13237.04,"text":"對阿,那麼多年了捏。不管是說你要怎麼樣去讓他們滿意嘛,才能實施嘛。所以到現在沒辦法實施,就是不管是賠償或者怎麼樣對他們有利啊,他們才會覺得說實施。但是現在我們很多的立委都希望就是延期,但是我們政府希望實施嘛,對不對。"},{"start":13260.6,"end":13287.156,"text":"所以報告委員是這樣子目前還沒有實施國土計畫法我們是用區域計畫法在區域計畫法推動當中我們給予農民的那個叫做獎勵啦或者是幾戶不是補償啦現在就已經在做了而且我可以告訴委員就是說我們每一年每一個農民都在做為什麼那麼多委員就是很多都是提出來的是要延長是什麼原因"},{"start":13288.997,"end":13307.348,"text":"民意代表來是說你說農民是覺得你溝通好但是民意代表就覺得你溝通不好因為有一些是做不出來或者是說他們政治的考慮我不知道但是呢但是因為其實你跟我們委員都沒辦法溝通啊農民又沒辦法溝通你怎麼算做不好所以說委員覺得是委員是沒有監督好嗎還是怎樣不是這樣子因為事實上被"},{"start":13317.794,"end":13322.037,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":13346.716,"end":13348.638,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":13363.709,"end":13366.37,"text":"所以這個部分我們也要去協助如何溝通讓他們覺得說他們是變可以就地合法這個部分我們也希望希望我們的我們這邊的農業也是要去協助啦因為我們台中也好各個縣市也好有很多的農地因為沒辦法去種植嘛所以他們一定要有想辦法要怎麼樣活下去啊對不對所以我們現在就是有"},{"start":13393.575,"end":13394.836,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":13411.721,"end":13414.062,"text":"有沒有這個機會?國土無法實施跟農業權事實上是無關的啦因為其實我們現在還有當然無關啦但是我們的探權也是透過土壤怎麼樣去變成我們有這樣子的探權嘛所以我們是說我們要怎麼樣讓我們的農業更有更多的一些權利啊因為今天要做農很少人嘛又有時候就是這個土壤"},{"start":13441.178,"end":13444.221,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":13463.74,"end":13465.741,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":13481.969,"end":13483.27,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":13509.782,"end":13511.364,"text":"因鎮定條文對農民給予特別的補償,落實農業權的實施。」這樣子你會支持嗎?不會支持,因為我們現在已經在做了。比如說三寶一金,三寶一金其實我們現在你如果說有脫寶"},{"start":13530.041,"end":13532.382,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":13554.966,"end":13557.548,"text":"所以說現在我們要實施就是要缺雜溝通不良才會導致說我們那麼多我們的立委為人民說要求延後嘛所以我們希望可以通過但是你要溝通讓我們的農民滿意或者是說他們也達到他們的需求所以他們提出的需求你就馬上否決說沒辦法支持"},{"start":13582.188,"end":13582.589,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13596.243,"end":13598.363,"text":"文修正草案案。二、 Naruhodou審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":13622.824,"end":13624.144,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":13650.214,"end":13650.654,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":13678.329,"end":13681.312,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員"},{"start":13699.673,"end":13720.528,"text":"部長從上個會期本席就提出要延長兩年其實我們整個政府的政策是一個非常完善也是一個美意但是可能跟地方政府的溝通的橋樑還是不是那麼順暢因為本席在這邊我也看到我們新北市和分林他們都沒有提出因為我也是保證你們也知道我分林的主題"},{"start":13728.14,"end":13735.685,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":13749.087,"end":13751.128,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具"},{"start":13775.898,"end":13794.946,"text":"題單上個會期我就提議說要延長兩年是不是我們政府部門跟地方的政府大家都做溝通因為新北市剛好又是本席的選期新北市市政府也沒送雲林縣政府也沒送那證明說他們還有餘力"},{"start":13796.406,"end":13797.968,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":13819.748,"end":13824.071,"text":"報告委員,委員剛才說到新北市政府跟雲林縣政府,我來聽過,在我們自己的官員去交通以外,我也有跟奧郵局、奧市長、跟中管長都分別加進會。他們兩個都有答應說,希望在12會的時候,可以把國土計畫的公認分架上來進步。"},{"start":13846.107,"end":13846.347,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13865.805,"end":13867.986,"text":"當然國土計畫法有很多溝通不良的地方但是新北市大部分據我所了解他比較不是因為農地的使用部分新北市是因為大面積要改造譬如說建地或其他土地的區域上面的位分上面"},{"start":13883.174,"end":13884.236,"text":"委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":13898.698,"end":13903.219,"text":"我沒有反對有人要請我去溝通,我說我不要去,不會這樣,因為我都知道已經近十天的時間了,這是一點。第二,就是說立國國土計畫法,他們真的不可以上來,我們就要去了解說真的不可以上來的原因在哪裡,是因為溝通不足,還是人不足,還是像你說的大部分人都集中在農地上面,會有不一樣的概念,譬如說我們有某委員,"},{"start":13925.846,"end":13931.409,"text":"條文修正草案案。四、cellence委員吳琪銘等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。五、cellence委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具《國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案》案。六、cellence委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具《國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":13949.557,"end":13955.402,"text":"案。兩項法件款的概念實在是我們認為不妥當,因為它是去抄美國,美國的土地是我們的一千倍、一萬倍以上,我們這裡的土地可能一公頃、兩公頃已經不得了了,然後它的概念就是要把原來,如果要為了做更好的建地,你還要有土地的價值增加,你就要補貼這裡,"},{"start":13974.439,"end":13976.08,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項。四、ymption審查委員吳琪銘"},{"start":13993.647,"end":14006.615,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第12屆議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬"},{"start":14018.561,"end":14026.365,"text":"條文修正草案案案案。四、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案案。四、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14046.365,"end":14062.575,"text":"因爲普通,在我們對農民有益的部分,您就要充分給農民來瞭解,不然農民因爲很多受到誤導,大家都會恐慌,在這個部分,您就要充分去做宣導,包括我們農業部,包括我們"},{"start":14064.916,"end":14069.477,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四十條第一項提供民眾檢舉獎金。我認為這個會包括我們過去包括交通、科技、執法很多都展現民怨。所以在這條,大家說我們要檢討,我們不應該讓我們民眾"},{"start":14094.263,"end":14097.605,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":14117.695,"end":14120.056,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":14131.301,"end":14135.622,"text":"委員吳琪銘等16人擬具委員吳琪銘等16人擬具委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":14165.25,"end":14166.732,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":14186.377,"end":14189.718,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":14210.41,"end":14216.414,"text":"因為你目前就是沒有配套措施啊!連不管藍綠白裡頭、縣市政府有這麼多還沒溝通民眾的疑慮啊!怎麼會說出這個如果只有修這一條會是一個災難呢?現在就是啊!民眾恐慌啊!對不對?所以這一次請教"},{"start":14233.624,"end":14252.116,"text":"在所有的溝通民眾的疑慮那麼高的情況之下部長你會不會同意再緩兩年我們繼續溝通繼續溝通所以你不排除嗎是不是因為大院在是不是不排除沒關係我們好好溝通我不希望只有這一條修正修正過後會變成很亂一個國土政策"},{"start":14256.459,"end":14257.16,"text":"新青岸貸款的經濟方案"},{"start":14282.983,"end":14283.784,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":14292.916,"end":14313.354,"text":"內政部不是主管機關,我們是住宅政策的主管機關,它是不是新清安貸款的主管機關?當然,所以本席要請問,在這樣子的一個情況之下,我們目前,我們的方向,政府的方向是不是要這個平抑房價?是不是?"},{"start":14315.751,"end":14324.297,"text":"條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條條文審查委員馬文君等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條條"},{"start":14340.202,"end":14343.025,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":14358.523,"end":14384.401,"text":"明年的七月底所以我要請教部長你的居住正義在整個這個這個房屋的布置裡頭你佔了非常重要的一個角色所以本席要請教到明年六月那麼落日之後會不會在你的整個房屋的政策裡頭你的看法會不會希望政府繼續"},{"start":14386.558,"end":14403.249,"text":"報告委員新金安貸款內政部的角色就是協助利息的補貼那目前為止我們不希望說在兩年之後如果落日的時候再繼續補貼因為這樣子的話反而對於新金安貸款真正要補助的年輕人不是一個正向的發展"},{"start":14416.118,"end":14419.661,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":14435.757,"end":14457.858,"text":"在一千七百七十五家來單位來服役,而且累計的專利哦,很好哦,五千三百三十六件,那每一年可以為用人單位創造新台幣千億以上的產值,這我們要給予讚許。但是退役之後,我們也很好,有將近七成的留任的援用在這個單位裡頭,這個非常好。"},{"start":14461.221,"end":14477.703,"text":"但是為了延續這個政策你內政部你已經合訂你也合訂114年研發替代用人單位多少家400多家424家424家我open book給你在這裡齁424家其中最重要的是什麼"},{"start":14478.524,"end":14505.367,"text":"其中最重要的單位,你們的盤點。報告楊委員,他當然寫半導體機械,但是就我所了解應該就是五大信賴產業裡面的全部包含在內。對,所以包括半導體、機械、資訊、光電、電子等這些產業,五大產業都在裡面。那我們同時希望能夠協助產業,也幫助人才、培育人才。這是現在非常重要的課題。所以請教部長,"},{"start":14506.348,"end":14521.733,"text":"民國防兵力結構調整之後也就是94年次的一男畢業已經沒有研發替代役可選那這一項政策怎麼辦呢?你是要終止還是會有其他的制度方向?當然會延續本期告訴你"},{"start":14529.096,"end":14542.572,"text":"在94年因為國防部我們全民國防兵力結構調整之後你如果是94年次的藝男畢業之後他就沒有可以替代役可以這個研發替代役"},{"start":14545.951,"end":14546.692,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":14563.649,"end":14576.999,"text":"部長你現在還不清楚這個議題因為我們在整個培養人力必須要這個是有好的成績本席在取我們要怎樣延續但是問題是你94年畢業之後他就沒有這個研發替代役啦那你的人要從哪裡來你短暫這兩年沒問題持續再做對不對但是他94年畢業的會到啊"},{"start":14589.928,"end":14602.257,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第14會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第14會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":14614.588,"end":14616.129,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":14631.704,"end":14632.405,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":14651.179,"end":14668.809,"text":"對,94年的一男畢業之後他就沒有所謂的研發替代役所以這個到了之後,未來幾年,到了之後你要怎麼辦?喔,你要怎麼辦?這是本席跟你討論的議題我剛跟委員報告,我們會堅持要有延續這樣的研發替代役好,會有延續,那人要從哪裡來?人要從替代役那邊來啊不是,我要跟委員報告94年畢業之後就沒有研發替代役啦"},{"start":14679.877,"end":14681.879,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14702.279,"end":14707.861,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":14732.694,"end":14734.395,"text":"檢討後多久時間可以給本席方向?我們月底之前好嗎?好,謝謝。好,謝謝楊瓊瑜委員,謝謝部長。下一位請牛許廷委員。"},{"start":14758.252,"end":14780.57,"text":"謝謝主席,部長有請我們要繼續討論國土計畫法的部分第一個本席想要了解一下其實這段時間的爭議其實也久了包含昨天民進黨很多委員其實也都出來開了記者會大家都認為說如果要馬上上路實務上很多困難請問部長要怎麼面對同樣執政黨立法委員不同的意見"},{"start":14781.749,"end":14800.531,"text":"報告女委員我剛剛有特別提到我希望國土計畫的部分要能夠是以這個國土計畫為本不要有這個藍綠政黨上面的爭議第一個然後第二個所謂的延緩上路剛剛我們也報告過有兩年有四年有六年甚至有一年甚至有說要把一併取消掉"},{"start":14801.031,"end":14824.91,"text":"所以我才提到說我們國土計畫法呢他當然不是很完美但是他如果需要這個修法或是調整的時候需要一定的配套而不是只修一條或只修兩條那第二個呢我們認為是延緩上路之後呢他的延緩上路的配套措施到目前為止每一個委員看法都分歧那再來就是有關分歧的部分大致上都是落在農地的部分那農地的部分呢包括"},{"start":14825.59,"end":14843.25,"text":"這個就是本席要問的啦其實喔其實在當初開公聽會的時候本席也講得非常清楚這個國土計畫法利益非常良善可是問題是講說修正的時候會遇到非常多的問題其實本質的原因我想部長或者是署長都很清楚就是因為台灣還是沒有一套好的方法去惡足所謂的大開發主義嘛"},{"start":14844.511,"end":14871.15,"text":"在臺灣不管搞農業也好搞產業也好到了最後發現大家發現還是從土地去賺錢速度是最快的所以有農地的人每天在想著我怎麼把這農地變成建地我今天講話真的很直白而且這個沒有什麼藍綠的問題啦這個就是現實大家要面對的狀況那我們政府到底有沒有魄力去面對這件事情我們面對這個大部分不管是民間也好政府也好大家都鼓勵變相鼓勵或期待大開發主義的這樣一個風氣我們現在政府到底的態度是什麼"},{"start":14871.73,"end":14887.2,"text":"我覺得我們要先把這問題釐清之後我們才可以真正把這個阻礙國土計畫法修法的這大石頭搬開不是嗎?部長我們現在要用什麼樣的方式?你看現在幾個問題嘛第一個就是你不管當然藍營執政的縣市也好綠營執政的縣市也好大家都還是因為變更的問題嘛"},{"start":14888.241,"end":14889.503,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":14909.602,"end":14924.188,"text":"但是這個東西如果政府沒有提出一個方案沒有一個討論的基礎所以大家今天才會去講說可能要斬言因為對這些東西的討論或者是配套並不明確以至於基層很多的民眾是反對的這個問題還是沒有解決不是嗎部長"},{"start":14926.533,"end":14927.413,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":14953.3,"end":14955.221,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":14971.9,"end":14971.94,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":14992.25,"end":14993.971,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":15007.395,"end":15028.557,"text":"但現在就是推進的過程中顯然還有諸多的爭議沒有解決本期認會第一個比如說大家現在炒最多的是農業的政策的部分比如說雲林丟出了一個農業權的一個概念那他的概念其實就是好讓他接受就是說我的未來的土地在管制上或者是在使用分區上我就是以農為主但相應來講你要給予更多的財政的支持或者是其他方面的補償"},{"start":15029.498,"end":15054.531,"text":"這個其實就是一種解決方案嘛那當然部長你可以講說這個還不是很成熟還可以討論但你片面的認為是災難我覺得好像也話也講得太早了一點但不管方法只是說把它放到國土計畫來的話呢它就是一種災難你到底要立在哪一步法裡面政策的執行的配套是什麼方案是什麼其實都有待討論但其實就是因為你沒有一些這樣子的妥協或折衷的時候我們都沒有辦法面對民意反對的浪潮嘛"},{"start":15055.131,"end":15073.209,"text":"我們不能因為他學理上他是有進步的我們就要壓制民意的浪潮這樣很奇怪嘛我們的角色本來就是在中間不停的協調所以今天有慢慢慢慢開始有人丟出了新的方案他其實就是一個產生配套的過程嘛那今天就是產生配套的過程中也許需要更多的時間啊那部長你同不同意需要更多的時間"},{"start":15073.609,"end":15073.909,"text":"國土計畫不是只有講農地計畫。"},{"start":15094.278,"end":15095.659,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":15115.393,"end":15133.545,"text":"可能要開更多的地方說明會尤其在農業縣市是不是要多走一走再聽一聽大家的意見要不然你當立法委員這一段我們剛好就夾在中間我們了解這個法案推動的學禮也了解它的好意但是我們也面對民意的壓力所以我是覺得需要更多的時間去做溝通不是嗎"},{"start":15134.565,"end":15154.494,"text":"我想我贊成這個委員的說法就是如果需要多做溝通的話包括用那個他們能夠了解的語言多做溝通但是也要讓我們能夠了解我們去哪裡溝通因為我們現在包括溝通的場子都出來那有些地方呢他不希望我們去啊他只願意我們只願意接受大家擔心血流成河沒關係啦我覺得這一部分血流成河是太過分啦我想不用這樣講我們還是一樣願意多做溝通包括我們自己的這個民進黨的委員也知道他們認為溝通要戰前"},{"start":15163.618,"end":15164.118,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15188.114,"end":15194.779,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．"},{"start":15218.097,"end":15218.679,"text":"條文修正草案。"},{"start":15234.391,"end":15253.772,"text":"謝謝主席,謝謝劉部長,劉部長已經在被巡談。我想請教一下部長,我剛剛聽到幾個委員跟您在這個巡達的過程中,您一直提到說希望這個國土展演的部分不要有政治的因素,那請問一下部長您提的,您指的是什麼?"},{"start":15254.877,"end":15274.288,"text":"報告委員在我們溝通的過程當中第一個我們是希望國土計畫就國土計畫的部分農業發展就農業發展的部分讓我們多做這個溝通然後不要牽涉到說什麼政黨支持什麼政黨不支持什麼像譬如說我會要求我們的其他公務員去做溝通的時候不要帶有任何的政黨色彩"},{"start":15275.168,"end":15275.408,"text":"財野黨貝格爾執政黨貝格爾執政黨貝格爾執政黨"},{"start":15300.131,"end":15316.039,"text":"本質,就是針對國土計畫法,針對農民的權益,大家還有很多的疑慮。」我想這個跟政治一點關係都沒有,否則這個民進黨的這個委員應該贊成國土計畫法盡快上路都來不及,怎麼可能提出展言。所以我想致敬,尤其是剛剛部長您也提到就是說在前兩天雲林縣有提出一個農業權跟農地移轉權的一個概念,農業"},{"start":15324.924,"end":15326.885,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":15346.156,"end":15347.557,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":15361.824,"end":15377.545,"text":"好的配套措施﹑目前看起來就是沒有所以為什麼大家一直希望說能夠展延就這樣那如果擔心農地炒作就不給農民的這個補償的話那其實這樣就是因業廢食啊那這些弱勢的農民他們要怎麼辦"},{"start":15378.246,"end":15380.667,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條"},{"start":15406.937,"end":15416.804,"text":"財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草"},{"start":15434.471,"end":15443.373,"text":"其實所謂的權利,權利當然就分為未來權益跟我們現在的權益。那以農民跟農地來說,既有的權益就是農業的收益,未來的權益就是有可能會開發的利益。所以國土計畫法上路之後,不但會傷害農民既有的權益,而且也有可能讓農民未來的權益受到嚴重的影響。"},{"start":15454.676,"end":15455.336,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文宣告"},{"start":15471.503,"end":15487.627,"text":"最重要的是現在沒有做好的地方,我們要把配套做好。我剛剛為什麼提到英國?就是現在英國的新農業法規在2024年5月21號正式生效。農民可以將閒置的建築物改建成新的住宅和商店。"},{"start":15488.027,"end":15504.779,"text":"例如戶外運動設施、更大的農場商店跟農場培訓中心跟住宅。那這也讓英格蘭的各地農民有更多自由去拓展多元化的業務,而且沒有需要花費時間和金錢去提出申請。那這個資訊是那個駐英國臺灣代表處經濟組提供的。那既然部長經濟部是鼓勵國人到英國去投資農地、農業"},{"start":15514.146,"end":15517.128,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":15528.526,"end":15556.819,"text":"參照現在非都市土地的容許使用跟現在國土計畫國土計畫的農業區容許項目大於非都市現在的規定所以沒有受損我還是比較強但是我知道地方流傳的聲音都先貼一個受損所以提的受損指的是反而就像委員所講的刻意把它貼成是未來發展的權益當作可是區域計畫一樣沒有未來發展的權益"},{"start":15557.967,"end":15562.95,"text":"所以我覺得前提被貼了。第二個,委員所提到的這一則報道我說明一下所以委員現在所提到的大致上所以我還是第一個DIP"},{"start":15584.423,"end":15585.125,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15594.093,"end":15621.704,"text":"我們還放寬了,但是我在地方一直沒有。其實我相信地方都很樂意不管是部長、署長能夠到地方去跟他們溝通清楚,他們都很願意。所以我說明啊,我知道的是有些人沒有去特別講清楚,其實使用是放寬了,包含委員現在所提到的這些,其實未來透過整個規劃都可以去。署長,我想您非常清楚目前的問題點在哪,不管是在內政部或者是農業部,你們都很清楚問題點在哪裡。我們現在的目的是要解決問題,"},{"start":15622.924,"end":15624.324,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15638.729,"end":15645.535,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":15661.508,"end":15661.828,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15678.063,"end":15683.588,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":15702.284,"end":15716.86,"text":"我覺得要溝通是一定雙方都要拿出誠意那我也希望說接下來就是內政部還有針對這幾個農業線我就說沒有人反對如果在這之前大家都已經提出配套措施或是相關的補償方式"},{"start":15717.501,"end":15719.362,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15740.948,"end":15741.909,"text":"文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條"},{"start":15758.902,"end":15759.783,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15776.705,"end":15779.266,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":15796.97,"end":15800.451,"text":"很多地方比如說像我大概跟部長報告我們雲林縣的農民大概一年的收益大概47.8萬可是在新竹市新竹科學園區他們的平均的一年的年收入多少我相信應該你們也都很清楚"},{"start":15816.457,"end":15835.416,"text":"所以你就知道這樣子大的差異是因為我們要確保國內的這個國人的糧食安全而做到的這樣子的一個犧牲所以為什麼會有講說特別犧牲應該給特別補償主要是這樣的一個原因那如果你們認為農民沒有特別犧牲那是不是就那乾脆以後就是全部大家一起來負擔國人的糧食安全啊"},{"start":15836.977,"end":15853.623,"text":"我會有其他的法令可以一起來協助我還是一直強調我覺得不要把國土計畫法過度解讀到說是特別犧牲了農民的權益的受損是因為國土計畫法這是我們最在乎的地方其實這個部分我們都已經有提出來一些論述那我們大家共同來去努力把這些問題解決好不好謝謝部長"},{"start":15877.056,"end":15896.221,"text":"文修正草案案。四、ittee審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、ittee審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、ittee審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、ittee審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、ittee審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、ittee審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四"},{"start":15898.166,"end":15900.987,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":15915.995,"end":15920.098,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":15940.803,"end":15946.125,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":15970.057,"end":15994.11,"text":"連剛剛部長都講出不要汙名化國土計畫法所以表示過去八年我們要實施的這個落實他到明年要上路了剩下剛剛部長還回答說還有七個多月沒有剩五個多月了到明年四月底之前剩五個多月沒有七個多月那七個多月可能是我們跟前兩個月算起來七個多月所以"},{"start":15994.85,"end":15995.971,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":16015.031,"end":16041.071,"text":"但是這些說明會的成果跟結果還有效益 這才是重要的在開完說明會之後 什麼是國土計畫法?國土分區功能是什麼?各分區功能依據什麼法令來執行?施行會會產生什麼影響?其實在說明會當中 代表出席的都答不出來"},{"start":16042.216,"end":16058.631,"text":"然後民眾參加完說明會之後完全沒有理解整個國土計畫法本須必須說國土計畫法是一部非常重要也非常好的對我們整個我們國家國土發展最重要的一個法律"},{"start":16059.574,"end":16083.786,"text":"但是我們就是因為整個的施行的過程一些要準備的不完備所以造成我們民眾的很多的疑慮那在這裡本席也要來請教就是說我們的功能分區圖正式實施包括我們中央所拿到的很多跟現況不符"},{"start":16085.387,"end":16097.47,"text":"很多跟現況不符你就要據以實施這就產生很大的問題啊我來舉例土地受污染無法耕作我在這邊講啊有些那個土地受污染現在還在還在耕作稻米其實那個耕作的人他自己都不敢吃"},{"start":16108.399,"end":16116.182,"text":"都不知道賣去哪裡,這種情況還要編為農醫,這種情況還要編為農醫,這第一個。第二個本席在這邊也講過,農醫沒有水源,你還是要編為農醫,這第二個。第三個,"},{"start":16125.005,"end":16138.674,"text":"現在依據我們這些都是地方很多的疑慮現在我們因為很多政府都為了縮短這個城鄉差距還有貧富差距所以致力在推動量力農村"},{"start":16139.915,"end":16160.465,"text":"已經稍有成果,結果民眾覺得我們中央走回頭路,制定國土計畫法,我現在講的是民眾的疑慮,一定要想辦法來做溝通還有去了解。民眾覺得國土計畫法限制了我們鄉村農地的合法的這種使用,使貧富差距更擴大。"},{"start":16161.705,"end":16163.826,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":16177.094,"end":16206.222,"text":"整個特農區可是因為有些地區的發展那邊有30米的道路那這個聯絡道路他一邊可能已經是都市區都會區另一邊還在特農區在道路周邊他可不可以藉由這一次整個國土分區的這個規劃他能不能有些特農區他能不能不要再歸為農醫這個部分可不可以先回答"},{"start":16208.131,"end":16210.392,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案件》案。"},{"start":16234.542,"end":16261.327,"text":"他還是化為農醫,那這個情況?那個會被稽查跟管制啦。所以這個是國土分區圖交上來以後,你們再去稽查才去確認嗎?那個是環境部啊,他在縣市政府裡面都有專責的單位,都有專責的單位去把他做列管,而且不能中人。現在好幾個縣市本席了解,他繳交上來就還是,他污染的"},{"start":16261.747,"end":16283.366,"text":"他沒有水源的都還是你所謂的以前的特農區現在的農醫都是列為糧田那你你現在國土計畫法要上路他根本規劃錯誤這個情況你要在哪一種機制這個就接著我們就講到你有沒有緩衝機制這個他會送到內政部來的地方政府送我來你先"},{"start":16283.686,"end":16284.347,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":16304.847,"end":16305.287,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":16318.137,"end":16319.738,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":16339.751,"end":16340.712,"text":"新竹縣新竹縣新竹縣"},{"start":16355.145,"end":16357.426,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":16376.856,"end":16404.93,"text":"今天就算12月底給你上來,我認為4月也是無法順利實行。所以這也是為什麼我們原來都是期待在今年6月,就是這個意思。這麼多問題,我看今年6月就算全部送上來,你審議也是很草率。跟委員報告就是說,那這就是在國土計畫現在這個制度的好處。那中間都可以,過去的區域計畫時代是完全沒有的。"},{"start":16405.782,"end":16417.748,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":16435.418,"end":16437.98,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":16465.501,"end":16491.7,"text":"本席也必須講新竹縣國土分居圖是交上來8月就交了但實際上地方對這樣的情形這是我們聽到的聲音地方就是對我剛剛所講的問題都沒有解決啊所以我們中央在審議的時候還可以再等於說再去調整所以我們也希望中央跟縣市政府也要溝通好"},{"start":16492.637,"end":16495.438,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、 Naruhodou審查委員馬文君等16人擬具"},{"start":16518.05,"end":16520.552,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":16535.202,"end":16557.371,"text":"再重新再拿回去再檢討,調整到更好,包括剛剛你們也認同的這幾個問題,這很多區塊,而且這面積也不小。瞭解,我跟委員報告啦,我們分幾個層次啦,就是您剛剛所提到了,有一些比如說是它的這個圖資層本身產生跟限定不符的,那其實我們是審議完成,它是審議完成,但我們還沒有核定,所以在這個過程當中是還可以"},{"start":16564.881,"end":16571.089,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":16584.865,"end":16587.627,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":16603.021,"end":16616.79,"text":"所以我覺得這在整個流程裡面其實都有完整的配套我們從第二階段其實都鼓勵縣市就可以去做這類的規劃那到第三階段的時候再來落實這樣那我很快再問兩個問題"},{"start":16618.464,"end":16620.445,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":16640.792,"end":16655.891,"text":"本席看啊,因為草野的立委啊,我看都來跟我私下反映啊,要延啊。那如果真的延,很多我們不足的,這未來一定要,不要說延了,喔,後面再延,因為前面也延過一次了。"},{"start":16656.371,"end":16659.173,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":16674.382,"end":16678.885,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":16702.939,"end":16723.429,"text":"原有在非督裡面做了更正編定這個制度還是都維持所以我們對民眾的這個圖資因為圖資造成誤解的這個資訊的這部分我們都是持續用開放性的交易所以署長也知道你看每一個委員提的問題你們都知道但是它沒有被解決好最後整個區域計畫轉軌制國土計畫的制度你們的緩衝機制一定要有"},{"start":16730.032,"end":16753.644,"text":"所以剛剛跟委員報告過其實我們都已經按照不同情境給予不同的但是這個緩衝機制好像沒有辦法化解整個地方的反彈應該是這麼說如果還是有臨時提案可能連新辦事業計畫都沒有的都還沒有審查通過那個是最困難也是最近在地方政府會暴增的那這些即使延期我跟委員報告這些案子還是會出現"},{"start":16756.733,"end":16773.608,"text":"但是我覺得那個轉軌的緩衝機制你們把它明確一點明確之外我覺得這整個過程宣導也就是說包括我不知道這之前對我們因為都是地方政府去做說明會然後中央是不是也有派人下去"},{"start":16774.409,"end":16775.31,"text":"審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具"},{"start":16819.514,"end":16821.196,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文宣告"},{"start":16836.672,"end":16862.73,"text":"國土計畫法今天有很多修正的條文進來那主要的當然就是對於實施的時程上大家有一些憂慮那希望可以做更周延的一些討論我直接來說明一下我目前為止聽到的一些憂慮是什麼東西在幾次的公聽會裡面包含有一些學者他提出來"},{"start":16863.911,"end":16868.676,"text":"過去農地開放重電當農業部修正當農業部做出修正禁止兩公頃以下農地使用光電農地價格下跌18%"},{"start":16878.607,"end":16900.381,"text":"過去農地0.25公頃以上的農地可以蓋農舍所以0.25以下的農地不能蓋農舍的這個價格也在農地的市場上有很明顯的一個變化過去台灣為了解決很多工廠福島的問題台灣為了解決一些違規工廠的問題"},{"start":16904.488,"end":16920.48,"text":"解決的農地工廠反而這一些原本農地的地主他得利現在可能有國土計畫法規範下去之後的這些地主他不會有這個紅利這些都是過去台灣農地"},{"start":16922.749,"end":16923.79,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具〉"},{"start":16946.676,"end":16959.771,"text":"內政部可以堅持到現在部長還說要努力的來執行要化解這些所有的疑慮部長真的是不容易但是我們還是要把農業部這些問題農業部必須要來做出這些問題的這些解釋啦剛剛部長說了如果"},{"start":16965.638,"end":16968.64,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具 «國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":16984.429,"end":17007.191,"text":"真的像剛剛很多委員講的要用白話要用農民的語言去跟農民來做說明這個才是如果未來有研要這個實行的期間農業部才是主角啦不是內政部內政部就是要趕快把縣市政府可能來署長我請你回應一下"},{"start":17008.39,"end":17020.187,"text":"你認為會不會,如果真的展延,會不會有其他縣市政府已經交了的縣市政府說我要重交?署長你認為會不會?的確是有可能"},{"start":17020.486,"end":17021.186,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":17041.953,"end":17065.467,"text":"有作成延後實施,那署長你認為我們要不要跟縣市政府重新律定再交建的時間,再上繳這個國土計畫?應該這麼說啦,其實這當然是我們會找他們討論所謂的再重新再繳的時間,那這是第一個。那第二個就是說,其實在過往當中對縣市政府也是一個兩難。"},{"start":17067.329,"end":17073.914,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":17086.863,"end":17096.511,"text":"要慎重思考相關配套最簡單的幾個問題再講十次再講一百次跟農民說清楚農地可不可以蓋農舍農地可不可以農醫可不可以變更"},{"start":17098.606,"end":17114.252,"text":"農業權目前農業部有沒有在做?目前農業部的堆疊的這一些補助有沒有在執行?就這三點去對所有的農民說清楚嗎?那如果來來次長你稍等一下次長你稍等一下我請署長次長你稍等一下我請署長"},{"start":17119.983,"end":17124.468,"text":"三個問題就好了所以農民擔心的就是說國土計畫法實施之後它的農地價格有沒有被影響這個去說明清楚沒錯最後請部長好我說明一下好了第一個農地蓋農舍沒有問題因為"},{"start":17139.023,"end":17166.847,"text":"他依據的是農發條例,不是依據國土法。」對。所以這是第一個。這個講一百次也要去講。沒有錯。好,來,持長繼續。農業發展區一有沒有可能會變更?可以,因為只要有具體的整體開發計畫都可以。是。農一農二都一樣。國土計畫法有沒有判農民的土地死刑?有沒有判農民死刑?沒有,反而現在的區域計畫才是定住了,它不能動。麻煩。國土計畫反而是可以動的。好。"},{"start":17168.128,"end":17190.705,"text":"最後一個問題就是這個農業權也就是農醫現在目前的補助農業部有沒有在做這些堆疊式的補助現在都已經在做而且每一年我們光是這些農民福利或者是農民相關的增加糧食安全的獎勵已經達到1400億現在都已經在做了好 謝謝大家辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":17197.563,"end":17200.265,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議"},{"start":17224.958,"end":17247.252,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":17273.102,"end":17283.77,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":17285.759,"end":17311.627,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":17324.513,"end":17351.071,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、сколько審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土"},{"start":17358.08,"end":17368.62,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":17375.752,"end":17397.077,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":17399.104,"end":17411.63,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":17427.892,"end":17445.58,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":17472.858,"end":17496.832,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":17511.323,"end":17536.897,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":17553.456,"end":17572.227,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土"},{"start":17591.681,"end":17618.02,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":17618.908,"end":17620.978,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":17724.155,"end":17729.528,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":17755.964,"end":17768.299,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":17811.519,"end":17826.454,"text":"文修正草案案。四、сколько審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修"},{"start":17890.06,"end":17901.96,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":17917.346,"end":17941.283,"text":"文修正草案案。四、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條"},{"start":17950.503,"end":17972.701,"text":"文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條"},{"start":17985.037,"end":18011.47,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":18019.684,"end":18029.413,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":18148.12,"end":18149.604,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":18192.602,"end":18196.663,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":18293.319,"end":18319.814,"text":"文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修"},{"start":18395.598,"end":18399.778,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":18446.118,"end":18462.5,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土"},{"start":18514.804,"end":18537.688,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第4會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第4會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第4會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第4會期內"},{"start":18548.677,"end":18562.852,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次"},{"start":18610.009,"end":18631.265,"text":"文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。三、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":18634.07,"end":18648.862,"text":"文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。三、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草"},{"start":18666.476,"end":18686.309,"text":"文修正草案案。四、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、cellence審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。六、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":18698.302,"end":18701.427,"text":"文修正草案案 案。四、ិᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥᴥ"},{"start":18723.319,"end":18743.097,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":18762.995,"end":18771.507,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第12會期內政委員吳琪�"},{"start":18819.957,"end":18841.146,"text":"文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。六、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條"},{"start":18853.456,"end":18870.668,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":18885.469,"end":18899.314,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":18910.937,"end":18921.732,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":18931.661,"end":18947.231,"text":"文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修"},{"start":18956.834,"end":18982.975,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":18989.172,"end":18992.835,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":19017.483,"end":19044.218,"text":"文修正草案案 案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。三、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。四、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。五、지막審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫"},{"start":19102.381,"end":19127.555,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":19131.544,"end":19148.038,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":19154.684,"end":19176.597,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":19183.353,"end":19208.876,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":19212.688,"end":19239.115,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":19246.954,"end":19265.054,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土"},{"start":19266.084,"end":19286.576,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":19290.043,"end":19312.718,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":19322.618,"end":19326.225,"text":"文修正草案案。"},{"start":19336.462,"end":19351.07,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":19369.428,"end":19373.258,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":19383.524,"end":19408.197,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":19424.514,"end":19449.132,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":19453.131,"end":19459.982,"text":"文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條"},{"start":19485.998,"end":19506.165,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":19525.367,"end":19538.199,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":19602.346,"end":19631.709,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":19641.869,"end":19648.947,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":20383.725,"end":20384.126,"text":"我們現在繼續開會我們請鄭天財委員"},{"start":20406.452,"end":20415.595,"text":"主席各位委員有請部長還有國土署的署長請劉部長還有吳署長部長這個地圖照片我已經放了很多次這個前任的部長尤其是前任的部長是當過基隆市的市長"},{"start":20434.387,"end":20461.836,"text":"包括前前任的部長我都給他看過我常常以基隆跟新北市為例基隆是一個山坡地的一個地方它的坡度很陡像這個中正區很陡都可以蓋高樓大廈我們在巖鄉沒有要蓋那麼高啦我們只要能夠蓋房子就好"},{"start":20463.973,"end":20491.056,"text":"七輪中山區,三坡地都是建築用地,蓋很高。新北市的汐止區包括新店區一路上都有,高速公路上都會看得到。但是現在有了國土計畫法之後,所擬定的這些相關的這些規定,"},{"start":20492.403,"end":20510.587,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計"},{"start":20521.775,"end":20539.069,"text":"仍然是要維持延來的。」維持延來的。這個使用管制規則我先問這個署長使用管制規則延民會送到部裡面多久了?"},{"start":20542.403,"end":20565.523,"text":"已經三個多月了。所以你們一直到現在都還沒有確定?其實內部有演唱過好幾次,那下禮拜二要最後在法治上的審查。還沒有嘛,還沒有公告嘛,要先審查之後才要預告。所以,嚴明會的我其實不是很滿意。"},{"start":20567.062,"end":20594.483,"text":"但是我的了解是你們還要再去限收了所以我很希望能夠早點預告我們才可以有機會表達意見在這樣一個情況之下這個使用管制規則很重要但是按照目前你們的整個目前的你的至少到目前你的報告裡面來看"},{"start":20595.563,"end":20600.307,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":20622.523,"end":20649.04,"text":"我們只要是原住民的土地不是保留地喔不限於保留地喔只要是我們的土地然後他就沒有地方可以蓋房子就只能在部落的周邊他自有的土地裡面來蓋房子你們說還是要寄有的這跟委員報告啦他有分寄有的還有我們之前有提過嘛"},{"start":20649.958,"end":20663.957,"text":"原民會議提過一生一次的這一個部分其實都有兩種權益都有保留在國土計畫裡面都有保留所以這一個部分其實是對原住民的居住權益是有非常好的保障這是一個部分"},{"start":20665.599,"end":20694.282,"text":"這裏面當然我還沒有看到你的正式的條文因為已經給你三個多月了嘛你還一直還沒有有啦雙方都有持續在寫三個月所以在這樣的一個情形之下這個使用管制規則到底我們是不是符合我們的如果你還在保障既有基柱權利及傳統慣俗使用這我就很隆重啊就從你的文字裡你的報告的文字裡面"},{"start":20695.14,"end":20716.515,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等"},{"start":20724.787,"end":20741.295,"text":"修正草案案件都因應應,既然……我先請教一下部長,會展言嗎?如果按照現在原住民的部分不是真的原住民,整個國土計畫法的"},{"start":20742.799,"end":20760.258,"text":"沒有配套措施之前我個人並不贊成繼續展言因為只會讓有一些按照我們原來計畫要走的縣市包括原住民的這個圖館的部分的被延擋那現在各政黨的立場或者是現在的修正條文是不是勢必會展言"},{"start":20761.76,"end":20769.684,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":20789.113,"end":20807.279,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16次全體委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":20817.629,"end":20842.691,"text":"沒有辦法解決現有的原住民部落問題的話,寧可展言。我會是這樣一個立場。謝謝委員您的高見。有關於原住民族圖館的部分,我有要求我們的國土署在跟原民會溝通如果沒有障礙之下,我希望在12月底的時候就可以有預告。"},{"start":20843.669,"end":20858.222,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11次全體委員會第11次審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11次審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11次審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第11次審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第12次審查委員吳琪銘等16人�"},{"start":20866.254,"end":20868.236,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":20886.767,"end":20897.495,"text":"謝謝鄭天財委員接下來請鄭正全委員鄭正全委員鄭正全委員不在盧憲伊委員盧憲伊委員盧憲伊委員不在請林倩琦委員"},{"start":20905.193,"end":20928.262,"text":"主席,還有立院同仁和行政院相關的夥伴。我是不是先請我們的內政部長,還有我們國土署署長跟農業部次長,因為我這邊也要呼應一下這個原民相關的議題,所以我們是不是副主委這邊我也請您代表一下。"},{"start":20930.274,"end":20958.444,"text":"那對於剛才那個政委員這邊提醒的原住民的這個部分我也呼應他這個概念那他的概念我再強化一次也就是好像一般人都覺得在做任何的設計或規劃對原住民的這個照顧的概念但是我想剛才政委員的這個概念上應該基本上談的就是原住民原有的東西在國家體制進來之後"},{"start":20959.904,"end":20961.686,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":20969.159,"end":20975.563,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條"},{"start":20996.954,"end":21008.018,"text":"內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法院第11期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法院第11期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法院第11期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條條文修正草案．立法院第11期內政委員吳�"},{"start":21027.066,"end":21040.538,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「"},{"start":21051.435,"end":21074.521,"text":"第二階段,目前卡在第三階段往下走,因為很多地方政府的一些還需要更嚴謹強化的部分,現在跟中央還沒有談好。但是我想了解一下,請問我們最後在經過第二階段到第三階段的過程當中的最後的公展版本本席可以在哪裡看到?"},{"start":21076.038,"end":21081.002,"text":"公展版本其實都有了在國土署的網站就已經都有對因為它國土功能分區圖要先完成公展然後縣市政府審然後才可以送到內政部來審所以到目前為止都有公展版本"},{"start":21105.021,"end":21127.952,"text":"這個公展版本也就是最後你們應該是最要來送來審的這個版本OK我就是先確認一下嘛好我就提醒一下因為這個問題也是大家爭執了很久那很多這個地方的縣市都因為這個農醫的問題也就是這個農業的這個部分有一些還有一些意見"},{"start":21128.632,"end":21130.913,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事宜﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚一﹚"},{"start":21158.367,"end":21158.487,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":21188.447,"end":21215.132,"text":"其實就等於告訴所有的土地開發商這裡可以低買高賣這也是過去台灣在思考都市計畫學界、地政學界在討論所謂的發展權的時候遲遲不敢大量引用就是因為考慮在這一點今天如果直接套用在農地上等於直接告訴大家農地的價格上面還有一個bonus在上面"},{"start":21216.553,"end":21228.18,"text":"但是對於農地的擁有者他可能實際碰到的現在耕作人的減少然後跟這個土地的所謂被限制那聽起來還是像是依據國家的法規發展所以我才會跟你們報告過去的區域計畫沒有規劃檢討的程序"},{"start":21237.723,"end":21266.085,"text":"國土計畫有規劃檢討的程序。」那可能看起來就會產生的問題就在實際管理執行的層面這個是目前大家卡住一直不敢下去的原因嘛就是法規的制定是這樣可是等到實地施行的時候聽起來好像不會被限制的東西事實上你確定嗎?非常確定我舉一個例好了他的制度就會跟現在的都市計畫區的制度極為接近了"},{"start":21269.069,"end":21288.204,"text":"我還是跟你們建議就是說這個實地執行上你們應該在這個法的層面他不要到後來這個在授權給各單位的時候那到最後的樣貌又不一樣就像發展公安條例不好意思在沒有這個條例之前大家都各自負責結果有了這個條例之後呢就把所有的東西都禁止了"},{"start":21289.182,"end":21297.306,"text":"竟指責之後不願意開放就是因為所謂權責的關係所以我指的是說現在有這麼多爭議我想對於這個沒有辦法理解掌握權力的人如何去操作的一般民眾我想這是他們最大的疑慮也就是說當他們承諾了這件事情之後呢到最後可能走的方向跟實際的執行是不一樣的我覺得現在應該是一直卡在這上面很多人的疑慮我想是不是"},{"start":21317.677,"end":21319.158,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":21349.639,"end":21369.658,"text":"接下來請賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員不在、葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在、王育民委員、王育民委員、王育民委員不在、羅志強委員、羅志強委員、羅志強委員不在。"},{"start":21370.339,"end":21386.703,"text":"蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在。邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在。丁學中委員丁學中委員丁學中委員不在。吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員不在。"},{"start":21387.303,"end":21398.848,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財"},{"start":21414.892,"end":21416.033,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員"},{"start":21430.137,"end":21432.899,"text":"蘇長,我是覺得整個國土計畫法被汙名化,被兩位地方首長帶頭這樣子抹黑,我是覺得你有一點失職,因為你該辯護的方向辯護不利。"},{"start":21447.069,"end":21459.059,"text":"國土計畫法比區域計畫法還賦予地方政府更多彈性,也給他們更多工具,然後也讓地方政府更賦權給他們。在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":21464.324,"end":21480.127,"text":"最少我知道今天有一個記者會在國立成功大學都市計畫學系黃偉儒教授他也做了一個區域計畫法跟國土計畫法的比較他今天的比較做出來大家一看就覺得"},{"start":21481.669,"end":21486.672,"text":"天啊,這個國土計畫法就應該要趕快通過才對啊,如果是地方政府的立場的話,聽下去你就知道趕快通過才是最好的啊。但他在做的比較是說,這五十年來,大家聽到區域計畫法嚇到,一朝被蛇咬十年怕草繩啊,"},{"start":21503.365,"end":21529.812,"text":"他們所想像的國土計畫法還是像過去的區域計畫法因為過去區域計畫法最為人詬病的就是它依現況邊定沒有檢討機制毫無彈性形成凍結式的土地管理模式所以導致許多合理的使用但是不合法存在沒有彈性它沒有辦法合法的使用合理喔"},{"start":21530.572,"end":21536.537,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院"},{"start":21558.445,"end":21562.509,"text":"案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":21575.482,"end":21595.167,"text":"所以我跟邱文燕委員我們當初在立這個國土計畫法的時候就是針對當初我們看到的這一些問題提出了很多的相對應的這個工具包括說我們功能分區的畫社計畫要去引導開發"},{"start":21597.387,"end":21607.072,"text":"我們也賦權給你地方政府有認定土地管理等因地制宜的作為,也提供你們地方政府通盤檢討的補助。我們就是要讓你有彈性,讓你可以更因地制宜。要怎麼做也全部你自己地方政府決定的。"},{"start":21617.148,"end":21638.724,"text":"第三、已經投入鄉村整理地區的規劃案聚落規劃也有補助啊。所以我們中央還要補助你地方呢?依法有據的補助喔。第四、過程當中我們都讓民眾有參與的程序回應民眾的真實的需求。所以這不是洪水猛獸捏。"},{"start":21640.169,"end":21652.84,"text":"這是現在你去到土地管理管制的手段跟法律驚到了那我們要趕快來告訴你這是一個好的解套的方法可是呢我們現在看到大家都交作業了現在有幾個管制已經把他們的功能分區圖交來中央幾個?14個有幾個沒有交?現在還有8個"},{"start":21664.571,"end":21666.853,"text":"第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":21684.008,"end":21705.558,"text":"我們當初在立法的時候就說為什麼要二加二加二因為我媽不是不死人間煙火林淑芬、邱文燕各黨各派都有捏我們就是想到了要給中央政府時間準備要給地方政府時間準備在畫社功能分區的時候都還要再給的時間再多一點兩年捏2015年年底通過到現在"},{"start":21712.128,"end":21718.512,"text":"中間沒有辦法完成,六年的時間不夠,那你再多三年。當時多三年的時候,提案修正的立委,我們就說要再拖,現在是要把國土計畫法凍結起來,不施行嗎?還給三年,兩年沒夠,要再高年。當時就有立委說不可以再拖,不然等一下洗稿、高年稿要再拖,又要延,果真其然。"},{"start":21741.347,"end":21744.892,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":21759.076,"end":21774.375,"text":"當然現在大概卡在幾個部分啦大概第一個是農地的部分他們對於這個農業因為農民產生疑慮擔心一輩子無法翻身那也代表了說在這個過程當中沒有"},{"start":21775.954,"end":21783.496,"text":"農民是要怎麼翻身?區域計畫法就有辦法翻身嗎?區域計畫法一樣嘛,也是要透過都市計畫審議才能夠變更嘛。現在不知道法律意圖法都還新公嗎?農場農地變建地嗎?"},{"start":21797.148,"end":21797.808,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":21807.618,"end":21811.222,"text":"議員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五年通盤檢討。五年通盤檢討之前,我們給你地方政府說,你現在要做工業工,你看到你這個地方未來才幾天要來,未來台灣整形了,我看到五年之後可能產業有需求,"},{"start":21832.142,"end":21840.669,"text":"五年之後我有這個可能還可以再擴充需要都市計畫的那個城鄉發展區他就可以他就可以把它畫出來畫完以後使用的不夠再繼續畫都可以一計畫引導規劃"},{"start":21849.022,"end":21851.462,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":21876.787,"end":21881.028,"text":"只用地變更編定案多達771件,較同年3月時的537件暴增了234件。短短五個月,大家都在趕在國土計畫法施行以前,緊趕快個案變更,結果加速了這個農地的破碎,開發區域的散落在各個地方。"},{"start":21899.753,"end":21917.73,"text":"事件包括花蓮的七星潭沿線的渡假村,包括大豆山區的溫泉豪宅。所以在新制上路之前,這一些業者都罔顧整個國土計畫就要直接上路,突襲式的開發現象。這樣凸顯了區域計畫法對土地管理的不足。"},{"start":21922.094,"end":21927.438,"text":"所以我每延後一天,就多了一天讓農地遭受破壞的風險。特惡農中間放一斤甘蔗,污水排放出來,灌排不分離,給這個特惡農好的生產農地中間放的工廠的灌溉用水來灌溉水源,請地外淨財給大家吃,這是不是南北?"},{"start":21944.651,"end":21948.712,"text":"所以在這裡我們是真的覺得相當遺憾,但是我在講說我們是不是能夠這樣子跟大家參詳,雖然大家都要再演,我也是,也是表決嘛,表述人沒關係,但是我有一個希望,人家按照規定有14個已經報佈審議的,你就讓他先施行,"},{"start":21966.377,"end":21967.197,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21989.176,"end":21999.959,"text":"好接下來請林黛樺委員林黛樺委員林黛樺委員不在請馬文君委員馬文君委員馬文君委員不在請劉建國委員主席辛苦了現在主席排這個"},{"start":22011.739,"end":22016.121,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":22038.832,"end":22063.61,"text":"有所政策的改變,人民的神經一定是敏感的。」這是基本。第二件事情,我想我從五月底、六月初,甚至於這個中間,一直不斷地在提醒,整個國土計畫在執行的過程裡面,現階段,如果以十幾個縣市報到中央來,還有八個縣市稍微報的情況之下,他們還屬於在縣市的公告範圍裡面,縣市國土計畫公告範圍裡面。"},{"start":22066.312,"end":22077.242,"text":"當他們在縣市的國土計畫公告範圍裏面的這個期程我必須要我必須要細究請署長要答覆我還非常清楚藥農業縣來承載糧食安全我想這個這個這個原則基本上"},{"start":22084.397,"end":22085.598,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":22103.772,"end":22119.829,"text":"然後屏東現在是一萬一但與你的農業產值一年八九百億左右屏東是七百多億我們只多屏東一百多億那為什麼在特農的比例上我們就已經差了十來倍"},{"start":22120.714,"end":22147.731,"text":"然後變成國土計畫之後,地方政府的劃設,現在這是地方政府劃設的階段嘛,對不對?好,我們變成增加五千多,達到六萬,全國第一高的龍一面積在雲林縣。屏東反而降下來,從一萬一剩下五千多。所以現在雲林的龍一的被縣市政府公告劃設這個面積,已經高過屏東,高達十二倍之多。"},{"start":22149.298,"end":22173.453,"text":"要雲林農民去承載這樣所謂的糧食安全、優良農地的面積站在你的視野從高的方向去看下去對雲林而言是公平嗎?這樣的比喻是正確嗎?再對照彰化彰化可以選出四個立委雲林才選出兩個立委按人口、從農人口、從土地的面積為什麼雲林也大過於彰化?這邏輯是什麼?"},{"start":22180.042,"end":22200.289,"text":"這個規劃的依循又是什麼?當然縣市政府如果已經化射上出了嚴重的問題的情況之下再把這樣的一個縣市國土計畫送到中央來你中央該如何去做處置去做處理這是第一件事情時間的關係我請署長要快速的打呼我怎麼處理怎麼應應"},{"start":22202.037,"end":22226.058,"text":"謝謝因為的確委員在擔心的這一個部分也是現在在程序上一直被誤解但是其實就像你講的農民都是對自己的土地會有期待簡單來講雖然我的國土計畫也容許項目會比較多但是就會卡在過去的認知它是特農它是農一但是事實上我們國土計畫的農一農二對我們來講"},{"start":22228.14,"end":22255.967,"text":"以後的使用項目都是一致的。」這一點其實是很重要。第二個也沒有影響他任何權利。但是今天農民擔心的是說我會不會長久就這樣被限制。那事實上國土計畫比現在的區域計畫還要有彈性。他以後還是可以變更。國土計畫比現在的區域計畫還有彈性嗎?對不對?所以如果被劃出農曆之後就很簡單的請教吧。可不可以新建農舍?可不可以新建石材市?"},{"start":22256.627,"end":22260.05,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":22277.901,"end":22303.475,"text":"造成農民恐慌,當國家、當中央你要推這個政策,然後這個政策不是這個樣子,然後地方這種公開的場合或通訊、或通新聞,一而再、再而三變做農業之後,就是有做非常嚴謹的相關限制,甚至於透過圖卡一直在講說農地判死刑,一輩子被冰清,然後再做農奴,你們怎麼回應?"},{"start":22304.575,"end":22308.938,"text":"你們有到地方去開嗎?你們有到地方去開說明會嗎?你們有透過第四台的左馬燈去做說明嗎?你們有透過電視節目的裝潢好好去表達這個不是事實不要被這個地方政府用詐欺的行為讓你們的土地價值直直崩落你們有做過嗎?有嗎?你們有第一時間做反應嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":22329.732,"end":22341.516,"text":"對,謝謝委員啦,其實在...你們為什麼從6月到現在,今天才...還好張偉有牌,我們才有機會在上次的公聽會跟現在有機會把這事情講清楚,講清楚只有這個頻道夠嗎?他們已經辦了多少場了,每一場都這麼講,連六幫罵紅大。"},{"start":22349.161,"end":22357.946,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":22375.578,"end":22379.88,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":22401.567,"end":22402.988,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22416.36,"end":22431.076,"text":"在上市小英總統的任內我們怎麼讓三保一金可以立法完成我們怎麼樣的讓補助補貼有人在講補助補貼會因為政策改變我要請教署長簡單說明一下特別補償特別補償是依據什麼補助補貼又是依據什麼對"},{"start":22434.608,"end":22463.033,"text":"因為特別補償其實沒有任何的依據因為特別補償指的是政府剝奪人民的財產那目前全台灣就是只有公社保留地還有文化資產這兩個是適用的但是如果補貼它可以依據農業相關的法規包含農發條例或相關的法規它是在現行的制度底下我增加新的補貼讓你在從事農業更有保障"},{"start":22463.473,"end":22491.621,"text":"地方政府跟你講說補助補貼會因爲政策的改變。其實跟國土計畫沒有關係。對。補助補貼是不是一樣依照法律的規範去執行嗎?對不對?你特別補償,何嘗不是也依照法律的規範去認定才有辦法去做處理嗎?怎麼會補助補貼就會因爲政策的改變?不會。那特別補償就不會?一樣都是依據法律。是。地方政府,一樣是政府講這樣的話,你們誰第一個時間做回應?"},{"start":22492.501,"end":22517.735,"text":"你跟我講,針對這部分你們誰第一時間做回應?我們現在相關的新聞都有做回應。相關的新聞做回應,有針對特別的,因為農民接受補助,因為農民接受補貼,現在聽一樣是政府,只不過一個叫中央,一個叫地方,就說你的補助補貼可能會因為政策改變,對,會去取消或怎麼樣,那特別補償,就不會因為政策改變去做相關調整嗎?你們誰針對這一塊去回應?沒有啊。"},{"start":22522.383,"end":22535.429,"text":"沒有啊!不要說你內政部,文憲部也沒有啊!我們這段時間要接受你農業部多次補助跟補貼,人家說你的營運政策改變,馬上就能改變喔!你先第一時間去做反應,人家說兩天,你現在對著單位有去反應,補助跟補貼不是一樣你發有依據,特別補償不是一樣你發有依據,像這個補營的營運政策改變,就去改變,像這個補營的營運政策改變,就去改變,"},{"start":22550.396,"end":22552.137,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22574.822,"end":22592.753,"text":"但是法律沒有啊,法律就是沒有嘛,所以有人到現在不想上,你就不再執行嘛,所以你就存懸這條路而已嘛,在那裡想法律啦,在那裡想法律啦,但是你在那裡馬國土計畫、文憑畫、說農地化私營、說一時變農委員,你不想要懸,你不想要來這個舞台說,也不一定要懸耶。"},{"start":22598.166,"end":22598.887,"text":"主席,對不起,謝謝,感謝"},{"start":22620.79,"end":22646.775,"text":"好,謝謝劉靖國委員接下來請王洪威委員王洪威委員王洪威委員不在好,我們登記發言的委員除不在場者及餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員丁學忠盧憲一所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":22651.496,"end":22664.544,"text":"我們接下來處理法案報告委員會現在進行法案審查請宣讀討論事項一所有條文含修正動議附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再進行協商"},{"start":22672.063,"end":22689.633,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案第七條委員鄭天財等17人提案。第二項第四款修正為國土保育地區海洋資源地區及第24條第三項但書規定之使用許可許可變更及廢止之審議。增訂第五款五中央主管機關許可造地施工計畫之審議。"},{"start":22691.034,"end":22704.91,"text":"徵定第三項第三款三直轄市縣市主管機關許可遭地施工計畫之審議。徵定第四項前二項審議事項涉及原住民族土地部落及部落周邊一定範圍者應有原住民族代表一人其餘同性型條文。"},{"start":22705.831,"end":22724.104,"text":"第八條委員劉靖國等17人提案增訂第三項直轄市縣市主管機關擬定直轄市縣市國土計畫時應辦理鄉村地區整體規劃並就聚落及其周邊範圍研擬鄉村地區計畫納入直轄市縣市國土計畫原第三四項一列第四五項其餘同性型條文。"},{"start":22724.744,"end":22746.677,"text":"第二十三條委員鄭天財等18人提案。第三項前段修正為前項規則中涉及原住民族土地海域部落及部落周邊已併範為之使用管制者其餘同現行條文。第三十五條委員鄭天財等17人提案。第二項後段之會商相關目的事業主管機關定之修正為會商中央目的事業主管機關定之。"},{"start":22747.958,"end":22758.835,"text":"增訂第四項第一項國土富裕促進地區之劃定涉及原住民族土地或部落者應經中央原住民族主管機關同意時得劃定其與同線性條文"},{"start":22760.543,"end":22778.969,"text":"第四十條委員陳廷飛等提案修正為第四十條指瑕市縣市主管機關對土地違規使用應加強稽查。委員邱毅英等提案修正為第四十條指瑕市縣市主管機關對土地違規使用得透過預算撥補人力或透過衛星航照圖及運用科技空拍機之方式加強稽查。"},{"start":22780.749,"end":22800.697,"text":"第四十五條委員吳琪銘等提案、委員馬文君等提案、委員林思明等提案、委員徐宇珍等提案、委員呂玉玲等提案、委員陳昌明等提案、委員丁學忠等提案、委員張家俊等提案、委員劉建國等19人提案、委員邱振軍等提案、委員徐信英等提案、委員柯志恩等提案、委員楊瓊英等提案、委員羅廷偉等提案、委員王玉敏等提案、委員張志倫等提案、委員圖全吉等提案、"},{"start":22805.259,"end":22834.562,"text":"委員魯明哲等提案將第二項後段之四年內修正為六年內其餘同現行條文。委員蔡玉雲等提案增訂第三項中央主管機關應配合本法修正財政收支劃分法檢討中央統籌分配款依一定比例優先分配於畫設國土保育區、農業發展區限制開發區域之直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市平衡本法畫設限制開發土地造成直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市區域整體發展受損以達公平性原則"},{"start":22835.402,"end":22864.682,"text":"條文修正草案。」案。四、ympting第四項。前項未完成修法前本法暫緩實施。原第三項一列第五項其餘同現行條文。委員鄭天財等17人提案。第二項修正為直轄市縣市主管機關依予全國國土計畫公告實施後三年內完成直轄市縣市國土計畫之擬定及審議作業依中央主管機關指定之日期並公告實施並於直轄市縣市國土計畫公告實施後五年內依中央主管機關指定之日期並公告其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":22865.462,"end":22892.316,"text":"委員王美惠等提案委員林黛嬅等提案委員劉建國等17人提案將第二項後段之四年內修正為八年內其餘同現行條文委員黃建斌等提案第二項後段增訂但其行特殊者得於期限戒制前三個月向中央主管機關申請展言經主管機關核准後展言一次每次展言最長一年且不得超過二次其餘同現行條文修正動議一"},{"start":22893.877,"end":22918.169,"text":"第四十五條第二項修正為指轄市縣市主管機關一日全國國土計畫公告實施後三年內依中央主管機關指定之日期公告實施指轄市縣市國土計畫並於指轄市縣市國土計畫公告實施後四年內依中央主管機關指定之日期公告國土功能分區圖及與同縣行條文提案人委員高金素美等三人"},{"start":22919.341,"end":22945.352,"text":"修正動議二。第四十五條中央主管機關意欲奔法。第四十五條第二項後段之四年內修正為八年內。增訂第三項直轄市縣市主管機關於一百十三年十二月一日前所提出之國土功能分區圖得於一百十五年五月一日前向中央主管機關提出修正。原第三項一列第四項其餘同"},{"start":22946.252,"end":22949.257,"text":"新型條文提案人委員徐欣盈等三人擬具"},{"start":22953.451,"end":22980.733,"text":"復旦決議一、原住民族居住臺灣早已超過上千年但相關國土管理法規或建築法規制定之時未能考量部落需求以都市或鄉村的思考進自規劃導致部落連最基本的居住權、土地使用權都被法令限制而無法發展這也導致部落會有90%以上的違建為維護原住民族土地權益本法修正後請內政部於三個月內針對零新住戶的住宅使用權利比照農事"},{"start":22981.534,"end":22996.99,"text":"原住民申請興建自用住宅一生一次規定、山地鄉區為單位的辦理鄉村規劃等事項、研議具體可行之改善措施、送內政委員會提案人委員高金素梅等五人。附帶決議二、原住民因國土管理法規"},{"start":22997.931,"end":23025.358,"text":"或建築法規制定之時未能考量部落實際需求導致部落連最基本的居住權、土地使用權都被法令限制而無法發展。固於國土計畫法第二十三條第三項授權訂定原住民族土地使用規則來解決原住民土地問題。為緊速改善並維護原住民族土地權益,請內政部議員定期呈會同原民會於一百一十四年五月一日公告施行原住民族土地使用規則。提案人委員皋清素梅等五人。"},{"start":23026.238,"end":23046.418,"text":"附帶決議三、為落實原住民族土地轉型正義並維護原住民族土地權益,請內政部與原住民族地區未來鄉村地區整體規劃上每五年定期進行通盤檢討,根據部落族人的實際需求做動態規劃、調整規劃,確保部落用地需求得到滿足。提案人委員高金素美等三人。"},{"start":23048.188,"end":23073.817,"text":"附帶決議四、依110年公告實施之中,各直轄市縣市國土計畫距今盛久,其內容帶功能分區圖正式實施時,許多已經與現況發展不符,請內政部會商相關主管機關就是否能夠彈性調整符合現況擬具妥適處置方案。二、因為民眾害怕自己的權益受損,對未來土地使用管制限制及法令的疑議,所以許多非都市土地申請案件劇增。"},{"start":23074.797,"end":23095.137,"text":"原因是沒有緩衝轉軌機制衍生如福蘭申請及地方人力短缺造成無法核實管制困境。請內政部會商官主管機關嚴謎積極協助地方政府推動相關事宜。三、國土投資是國土計畫推動成敗的基礎。雖然目前國土署有持續更新相關投資,"},{"start":23096.078,"end":23112.254,"text":"但是對於圖資之主管機關有關圖資之公告程序更新頻率、坐標系與精度之要求仍未統一規範,請內政部會商相關主管機關就圖資相關事項研擬具體方案妥適處置。提案人委員徐欣盈等3人。"},{"start":23113.931,"end":23135.458,"text":"附帶決議五為落實國土計畫法強化國土整合管理機制追求國家永續發展之意旨內政部應與國土計畫功能分區圖審議時審慎處理各職轄市縣市之國土功能分區圖草案落實全國一致之劃設標準妥善解決各職轄市縣市國土功能分區圖草案劃設之差異提案人委員蘇巧慧等三人"},{"start":23136.218,"end":23157.009,"text":"附帶決議六為導正區域計畫法下非都市土地使用邊定與實際土地利用情形不符之現象。內政部應督導各執轄市縣市政府與區域計畫法停止適用且完整盤點全國非都市土地使用邊定與實際土地利用情形不符之狀況並妥善處理之。提案人委員蘇巧慧等三人。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":23164.526,"end":23178.217,"text":"我們現在進行協商我們現在進行協商首先我們就第七條這個國土計畫法第七條的部分請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":23181.414,"end":23190.359,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":23204.332,"end":23207.553,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":23233.607,"end":23258.117,"text":"這是國土署的意見接著原民會有沒有要表達第七條有關於要修正部落及周邊一定範圍內的公有土地的部分我想原計法第二條就已經有明示什麼叫原住民族土地裡面已經包含了保留地跟傳統靈異土地"},{"start":23260.32,"end":23263.162,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。四、сколько審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":23289.323,"end":23307.628,"text":"依據行政單位兩位的意見,我們就第七條就維持現行條文,就這樣,不以修正。不過剛剛好像最後一段拿掉,然後原民會的意思是維持原條文嗎?二、三項還是要維修?"},{"start":23316.39,"end":23343.858,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、Judge審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、Judge審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、Judge審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、Judge審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、Judge審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、Judge審查委員馬文君等"},{"start":23345.913,"end":23349.357,"text":"提案委員吳琪銘等16人擬具、「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":23367.978,"end":23388.131,"text":"文字上已經都有了。你們什麼上?我們的執法的機制都已經有留了。機制上。現在鄭天財委員已經到了,麻煩你再回應一下。你們可能再回應一次,讓政委員瞭解。就是有關政委員所提的這個"},{"start":23389.561,"end":23410.071,"text":"第七條的那我們大概就是針對最後一項就是說這涉及審議事項涉及原住民土地部落及部落周邊一定範圍者因為有原住民代表議員所以要跟委員報告我們在相關的執法的審議的辦法裡面都已經有把這一個部分納進去了而且不是只有在這個條文"},{"start":23411.632,"end":23427.8,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":23441.158,"end":23443.041,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":23456.798,"end":23459.96,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":23479.45,"end":23506.897,"text":"應該是這麼說啦因為我剛聽你講你的執法這個彈性比較寬如果你把它定成這樣就是一點彈性都沒有啦對因為到時候很可能依母法部落周圍那一個事項到搞不好會比執法寫的還嚴格那我們執法寫的比較有彈性所以看是不是才建議說母法不用再重複再寫而且反而到時候會不會兩個說法不一致"},{"start":23507.967,"end":23516.749,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":23539.008,"end":23558.468,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":23561.107,"end":23586.75,"text":"因為這個條文的內容我們有意見的部分是針對那個周邊一定範圍的這個範圍他所加的這些文字但至於剛剛所提到說是不是要原住民代表這個當然是那個國土署他們已經有執法的部分事實上我們是尊重啦是這樣子所以他那個範圍的部分我們本身如果這個法這個條文有在的話那文字是不需要用到原住民族部落一定範圍那是公有土地我們是這個意見"},{"start":23588.616,"end":23590.618,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":23606.855,"end":23636.481,"text":"如果說是人民會裡面提的版本是認為這樣,我認為就合理啊。那我們就按照鄭天財委員版本通過有什麼問題嗎?你現在的說法跟國土署署長的說法不一樣了。這個條文我們的言議是說這個條文當然存在是對原住民是有利的。那我們認為是說那那個周邊一定範圍內是公共土地這個不需要去加這段文字。"},{"start":23636.994,"end":23637.514,"text":"國土計畫法第12條條文修正草案"},{"start":23666.752,"end":23673.182,"text":"本會審議第二點各款事項得由委員組成專案小組必要的時候"},{"start":23674.565,"end":23688.271,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第11�"},{"start":23703.632,"end":23704.612,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":23734.178,"end":23735.344,"text":"本來就是在整個"},{"start":23737.955,"end":23761.109,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十"},{"start":23764.841,"end":23767.842,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":23789.502,"end":23797.006,"text":"所以增加部落及部落周邊一定範圍者有影響很大嗎?還是可以照鄭天財委員的版本?"},{"start":23803.639,"end":23828.577,"text":"現在就是部落周邊啦,這個文字,那個杜章處長,抱歉,那個副主委。當然禁忌法裡面是有規定,可是實際實務上我們在做的就是祝民族土地,它其實都在裡面啦,我的意思是說不需要再把那個加進去。所以如果再加部落跟部落周邊也沒有影響嘛,對不對?因為它沒有非常的明確啦,它的介質啊,它的那個一定範圍這個我們覺得它不太明確啦。"},{"start":23833.565,"end":23858.091,"text":"請張宏祿找委我覺得啦他們兩個部會齁這樣講我們齁我相信說很多委員都聽不清楚啦齁而且我必須要說啦部落周邊一定犯違則這個也沒有寫得很清楚啦這個我怕反而我擔心到時候原住民部落他本來可以不用那麼麻煩去處理的"},{"start":23859.391,"end":23882.848,"text":"結果呢?一定範圍,如果方圓要多少也沒有寫,到時候會增加困難度我建議讓他們兩個去溝通好我們先保留,我們先處理下面再回來這裡,不然你會浪費這個時間兩個單位溝通順便也跟我們原名的委員溝通好鄭天財委員溝通好接著"},{"start":23884.552,"end":23901.843,"text":"我們接著進入第八條,劉建國委員的提案。第八條,請問在場,劉建國委員到了。是不是請劉委員表達。"},{"start":23906.151,"end":23913.616,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是先請署長針對相規的部分做一個說明然後因為我是期待可以把相規入法"},{"start":23914.761,"end":23940.846,"text":"那當然有特別提到所謂的因跟得啦齁那如果相歸對於一個整個國土計畫來講它是一個非常基礎的一個畫色的一個原則的情況之下那我覺得就是應該是因也許對於農村發展區的地方而言是一個必備的條件那就應該是因嘛齁那如果得那有的有做有的沒有做那不是很奇怪那有的又是縣市政府直接補助那有的又是你內政部、國土署在補助"},{"start":23941.986,"end":23958.085,"text":"所以既然有補助,那怎麼會用德?這不是很衝突跟矛盾嗎?請署長做說明,謝謝。好,請署長說明。好,要接著簡單來說我們當然希望鄉民第一整理規劃入法是因為它這樣第一個讓縣市政府"},{"start":23958.726,"end":23966.568,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":23986.733,"end":24013.302,"text":"原理以後直接納入國土計畫這個部分我們贊成那至於為什麼是建議應改為德那是因為有些縣市其實大多數都已經是都市計畫地區了他應該沒有什麼在花鄉地區的必要啦所以是這一個意思所以德其實是針對這一些幾乎都完全是都市計畫區或絕大多數都已經是都市計畫區的他就沒有這個必要性了他應變成他不管怎麼樣他都得做"},{"start":24013.982,"end":24016.843,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":24043.174,"end":24068.912,"text":"林委員可以嗎?因為要兼顧這整個法還...我們秀在螢幕上,把您的這個修正內容原則上都照您的只有那個德改成...因改成德,可以嗎?可以讓我們這一條就通過?林委員當然不能去稱呼到他根本不需要做相關的地方嘛齁"},{"start":24069.853,"end":24070.113,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":24090.43,"end":24091.071,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":24112.551,"end":24116.173,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":24129.342,"end":24139.706,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條"},{"start":24152.811,"end":24181.972,"text":"我覺得是這樣子啊因為我們現在是非常上位的一個法律嘛那所以我們在這裡的話是不是如果有機會我們是把它寫成德但是剛剛署長您的說明等於是我們有一套標準什麼地方是應該做的什麼地方是依了某一個標準然後所以是不用做的嘛那那個標準是屬於執法嗎還是是什麼標準啊還是什麼也許是寫在這個說明的部分讓未來在使用這一條條文的時候大家一望就知道就是說在這個範圍下面然後接下來你就要被分類了嘛"},{"start":24182.312,"end":24184.815,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":24201.26,"end":24221.552,"text":"一種是我建議改成德但是會是不是在立法說明案裡面把這些案例狀況特別講清楚那這樣是不是就比較明確像哪一些他是可以不用來申請但除這類的其實就是因嘛這樣子之類的這樣大家就清楚是什麼這樣因為你在這邊定了因確實會有造成這樣的後果啦"},{"start":24226.277,"end":24245.115,"text":"那我們是不是請相關單位趕快去研議,然後去徵詢提案人的同意,然後我們回過頭再來看,大家覺得OK我們再給他通過,好嗎?好,另外一個是也跟劉委員商量一下,就是說您提的是舊聚落及周邊範圍。"},{"start":24247.998,"end":24275.328,"text":"我們大概也考慮到一個特殊狀況有一些地方它是鄉村鄉規裡面除了這個聚落範圍它有些可能是為了產業的需要它也要去增訂那所以是不是給我們再加一個叫做四十計需要那這樣的話會刪掉就聚落跟周邊發展但是直接加四十計需要那這樣其實比較有彈性因為我們知道地方也有想要申請這一類尤其是像觀光類的他們就會有這樣的一個需求"},{"start":24276.4,"end":24277.001,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24298.14,"end":24322.663,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四﹑五條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文修正草案案。五條條條文�"},{"start":24325.063,"end":24351.681,"text":"要有法律效應的其實本席也非常認同因為我們應該的他就是得做好接著我們進入第23條23條提案人鄭天財委員我看好像也是跟部落還是一樣部落及部落周邊一定範圍你們是不是也去討論之後跟鄭天財委員做溝通好嗎可以嗎"},{"start":24353.536,"end":24378.377,"text":"第二十三條條文修正草案案。第二十三條條文修正草案案。第三十五條也是鄭天財委員。第三十五條有沒有要回應的?也是一樣的。不一樣。鄭委員有沒有要表達?直接請行政單位。"},{"start":24380.636,"end":24389.032,"text":"請問那位有沒有要回應的?針對提案人鄭天財委員的這個修正還是前面那個所謂部落一定範圍的那個部分"},{"start":24389.619,"end":24415.728,"text":"但是這裡面我們可能要比較希望委員能夠接受就是說這個要請中央主管機關就是原民會來同意這件事情其實在整個的你看這個這一條他是部落去參與你一定計畫所以部落他的同意是比較重要而且原計法二十一條主要是部落的集體權我覺得這個如果要同意的話是應該以部落為主不應該是回到原民會三十五條"},{"start":24420.593,"end":24424.476,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":24447.927,"end":24454.053,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":24474.96,"end":24483.747,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":24499.21,"end":24525.282,"text":"三十六條之名如涉及原住民族土地劃定機關應邀請原住民部落參與計畫之擬定執行與管理。三十六條是另外一個層次了你先有三十五條才有三十六條所以這個三十五條你要先給你們給園民會通常園民會也不會很堅持不是嗎?人力政部可以接受吧?"},{"start":24527.439,"end":24529.16,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":24549.105,"end":24556.629,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":24579.78,"end":24592.745,"text":"國土富裕促進地區劃定,涉及原住民族土地或部落時,現在有需要經過哪一些中央主管機關會商相關目的事業主管機關定制嗎?"},{"start":24594.551,"end":24613.386,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第16屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬"},{"start":24618.59,"end":24625.756,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":24649.965,"end":24659.588,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":24666.704,"end":24690.371,"text":"對阿因為如果是按照現在這樣的狀況的話其實這條確實是只要我們在國土富裕促進區的話其實就是要有中央機關進入嘛那本來是中央的主管機關也就是你們嘛內政部這邊嘛然後還有相關的目的企業嘛現在已經兩個了嘛經濟部農業部阿現在涉及原住民族土地的再加一個原民會也蠻合理的阿"},{"start":24692.675,"end":24711.337,"text":"所以中央也認同所以我們第三十五條我們就沒有疑慮我們直接修正通過你們要確定齁有沒有什麼沒有看到的對喔看起來你們之前可能還沒有機會跨部會溝通過"},{"start":24713.927,"end":24741.616,"text":"好,那我們就直接照鄭天財委員的提案通過了那請張宏祿走如果大家要這樣通過那我會覺得說啦這個第幾項上面還有一個由中央主管機關匯商中央目的事業主管機關定資有需要再加中央嗎?因為這個最後面已經有因經中央援助民主主管機關同意時的劃定"},{"start":24742.625,"end":24766.166,"text":"那個就不需要啦,就要拿掉啦。對啊,那個中央就應該拿掉,立法才會比較完整。好,謝謝張昭偉。是不是,那我們再次確認,行政單位我們把那個中央兩個字就拿掉。對。"},{"start":24768.194,"end":24778.803,"text":"在第二項的中央目的事業主管機關定之。行政單位"},{"start":24784.098,"end":24798.35,"text":"我看有點問題請各位看一下36條36條就是原住民族的這個機關或是原住民的部落他應該是在劃定的過程當中參與計畫的擬定執行跟管理"},{"start":24799.651,"end":24818.62,"text":"但是如果你再回歸到原來三十五條的時候有一項就是國土富裕機關除了中央主管機關協調其他相關比如說可能是經濟部、農業部特別主管像流域、土石流或者是環境部等等這些協調不成的時候報行政院定之"},{"start":24819.52,"end":24826.286,"text":"第二十三條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":24844.632,"end":24863.809,"text":"中央的主管機關是一個同意的角色我建議三十五條跟三十六條要把它中間的程序先釐清清楚之後我們是不反對啦釐清清楚才會譴責用字上面不會出現未來執行上面的困擾我來說明我來說明一下部長"},{"start":24867.419,"end":24891.951,"text":"中央兩個字不是三十五條的最後一項的中央兩個字是三十五條的第二項是三十五條的第二項的中央兩個字就維持原條文是這樣那第三十六條啊第三十六條是國土富裕促進地區已經劃定已經劃定之後的"},{"start":24893.268,"end":24904.204,"text":"相關的這些相關的計畫所以這兩個是不同的所以前面是要先確定國土富裕促進地區的劃定"},{"start":24906.926,"end":24912.229,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":24929.939,"end":24944.871,"text":"原來第二項的中央兩個字張宏祿、趙偉提到的中央第二項的兩個字可以拿掉。那就針對這個三十五條的最後一項以上。"},{"start":24947.713,"end":24962.988,"text":"報告召委其實剛剛部長擔心的那個其實是兩個不同的層次啦鄭天財委員剛剛說明了蠻清楚的35條我們要畫的時候是人民會一定要加入但是畫完了之後要去執行的時候是部落"},{"start":24963.709,"end":24966.47,"text":"條文修正草案案案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具"},{"start":24986.616,"end":24992.078,"text":"三十六條是集體權。三十五條是規範中央。所以你中央都沒有,文明會都沒有設立的時候,你要完全交給部落去的時候,這也是會有問題啊。"},{"start":25012.646,"end":25037.694,"text":"所以你中央委員會你就必須在三十五條裡面先跟中央的其他目的事業主管機關一起來合意討論這些事情,劃定這些事情嘛。到了三十六條才會由部落裡面去計畫執行嘛。這樣子沒有漢格的地方啊。講得很清楚,三五、三六是這樣的權責區分的。好嗎?以上,謝謝。好,接著請舒巧慧委員。"},{"start":25038.394,"end":25044.28,"text":"條文修正草案案。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具"},{"start":25060.856,"end":25066.039,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":25090.387,"end":25105.918,"text":"我簡單講一下因為這個講的是在這個國土富裕地區的劃定所以我們前面講的是第一個是條件第二個是他劃定的這個辦法去會當定資所以這個部分我是建議就是說他應該是說"},{"start":25107.879,"end":25127.235,"text":"他應該是加入會商的一個角色但是如果說我們這些前面這些寫了然後行政院都決定了結果後面就加一個要經過他同意才可以那就有一點反過來他還可以來來來來否定了這樣其實程序上是蠻奇怪的我知道你說的意思齁那我先請問齁"},{"start":25129.625,"end":25154.16,"text":"你國土署跟園民會對於這個這樣子入法你們是都同意還是什麼我說明一下好了其實整個過程當中我知道你剛剛的那個順序我知道啦是我說把這個入法這樣子你們都同意嗎你們都認為是是對的嗎因為其實本來就是"},{"start":25158.88,"end":25175.148,"text":"是中央機關協調有關機關來決定本來就有機會找他現在變成獨立一條我剛剛是擔心他又是放在最後不是啦對啦我知道啦我只問你們說你們把這個入法這樣你們都認為合理嗎都同意嗎這個我可不可以插話一下這個在前兩項"},{"start":25184.844,"end":25202.624,"text":"國土富裕促進地區的劃定公告及廢止之辦法由中央主管機關會商中央目的事業主管機關訂定。」他就已經包含進去了。在這裡你再加了這個東西,不但是跌床駕屋,第一個。第二個,他把原民會的位階"},{"start":25205.069,"end":25226.515,"text":"已經是拉到比目的事業主管機關還要高了。整部法律的目的事業主管機關是內政部。結果你讓委員會還要凌駕在內政部上面。這個我跟你講這個地方談的是國土富裕地區不是國土計畫法。國土富裕地區顯然它是已經相當的相當程度的這個環境的衝擊破壞已經產生在那裡了。"},{"start":25231.636,"end":25242.815,"text":"所以要劃定進去的時候理所當然要會商中央的其他相關機關是沒有問題的可是你不能說要原名會準的才可以劃定啊"},{"start":25244.42,"end":25264.814,"text":"對啦,所以我知道我現在就是要處理這個問題嘛。你們認為這個放進去,如果你...好我就直接...不是啦,我跟你講,如果你們都認為這樣子是合理的話,我覺得啦,這個最後一項啊,應該齁,不用寫那麼多,要把它放到前..."},{"start":25266.195,"end":25287.167,"text":"放到第三項就是主管機關協調有關機關決定然後逗點然後呢涉及原住民族土地或部落者因或需我們可以討論經中央原住民族主管機關同意然後呢若協調不成報請行政院決定之"},{"start":25287.887,"end":25289.528,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":25312.975,"end":25323.963,"text":"土地和部落裡面居多啦,百分之九十啦,你這樣子放上去你百分之九十的所有富裕地區的畫色都要經過原民會同意,原民會跑到你內政部上面啦。這個沒有在上面還是在下面?"},{"start":25327.847,"end":25330.449,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":25347.941,"end":25349.923,"text":"原住民主基本法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25375.703,"end":25389.752,"text":"條文文字叫什麼是當然那你這樣子不是國中有國你是你的國管理到我們的國國中有國是陳水扁講的今天你是你的國掛到我們上面來了一個國家一國兩制一個台灣中華民國要變成一國兩制了我來說從第一項到第二項各位委員"},{"start":25404.485,"end":25424.717,"text":"第二項由中央主管機關現行的條文由中央主管機關會商相關目的事業主管機關他沒有講中央相關目的事業他只要內政部去會商的地方的地方政府"},{"start":25426.155,"end":25429.158,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具"},{"start":25441.584,"end":25444.466,"text":"你確定他們可以嗎?多少我們像我們在環評花蓮縣政府直接違法亂記也算通過?花蓮縣政府都送來了!花蓮縣政府都送來了!花蓮縣政府都送來了!花蓮縣政府回憶回憶"},{"start":25463.26,"end":25468.782,"text":"花蓮加入臺東縣政府,在美麗灣BOT裡面連環境法規都不願意遵守,違法亂紀,違法行政,到最後還被撤銷環評。地方政府同意更慘。"},{"start":25485.828,"end":25489.271,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具 «國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具 «國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":25513.849,"end":25518.271,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":25539.702,"end":25566.053,"text":"這個有關機關會包括原來在我們這一項裡面所說的目的事業主管機關所謂的目的事業主管機關可能包括農業部可能包括經濟部可能包括交通部等等這些都是跟自然保育相關的相關部會那這些呢他們要提出來這個是不是嚴重的部分的話他必須要有一定的科技科學的這個數據才可以所以我們可不可以把由中央主管機關協調有關機關然後後面的鬥點"},{"start":25568.934,"end":25592.544,"text":"包括原住民的主管機關來決定,如果協調不成,報行政院來決定之。」那這樣的好處就是說,這樣子的部分呢,就是變成說每個部會在決定這個地方是不是要列入國土富裕促進地區的話呢,各個權責單位都要分攤同樣的權責,就不會有說誰在前誰在後。"},{"start":25593.624,"end":25603.391,"text":"那行政院有沒有被那個中央的這個原住民主管機關把他拉為是第二級的決定機關用類似這樣的文字來顯現是不是會比較好一點?"},{"start":25608.554,"end":25627.636,"text":"文亮你們直接寫一下啦,看怎麼寫,讓大家看一下好不好。我再說明一個簡單的概念。我看是不是就,你們就去寫一寫。我只說明一個簡單的概念給委員了解。就是說,我們第一項有六個,有六款,是指劃定地區,劃定地區。"},{"start":25629.537,"end":25642.711,"text":"接下來的所謂的前項這一些第二個講的是辦法第三個講的是劃定機關政委員要求的是劃定地區所以他應該是在第一項的變成是七"},{"start":25643.735,"end":25648.52,"text":"第七款或是多增訂一項說明而已是會商原住民。"},{"start":25661.834,"end":25671.717,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":25687.844,"end":25708.685,"text":"具體化之後再來說明溝通好嗎?我個人會認為你要嘛你就直接拿兩版出來因為你剛剛講的是要專家成為第一項的第七款那我個人呢現在是跟紅綠委員應該是比較接近一點我們是認為是在第二項的部分因為"},{"start":25709.246,"end":25726.836,"text":"他前面這樣講你剛剛講嘛有六種情況我們有機會要把它劃成國土富裕促進地區嘛有六種情況這個是地貿環境地理環境的狀態嘛這跟是不是原住民保留區其實沒有什麼關係是他的地理狀況你看山崩啊地滑啊地層下陷嘛這是地理狀況"},{"start":25728.036,"end":25734.039,"text":"有這些狀況的地方我們要把它列為國土富裕區那我們就會發現說那如果這一類的地區它同時是原住民的保留區的時候那怎麼辦呢那其實是過去我們沒有寫但是今天我們把它特別為尊重原住民的狀況我們把它列在第二項裡面看文字怎麼修就等同於讓原民會也進來是成為會商的機關之一嘛其實就是這樣而已啊"},{"start":25754.928,"end":25782.916,"text":"所以應該是在第二項裡面說我們在說中央主管機關要匯商相關目的事業主管機關的後面若涉及原住民族土地或部落者應請原住民族人民會進來匯商應匯商人民會之類的嘛應該是類似像這樣然後第三項不動因為最後最後的裁決還是行政院嘛所以我是建議你這個版本至少要有這樣的東西啦"},{"start":25784.946,"end":25788.208,"text":"文修正草案案。四十條請問各位在座的委員有沒有什麼意見要表達的?"},{"start":25810.72,"end":25811.121,"text":"條文修正草案。"},{"start":25818.88,"end":25838.735,"text":"提撥一定比例公民眾捷運獎金這一個部分其實我們會覺得以現在幾個一些重大的違規事件包含嚴重破壞土地對土地造成污染無法恢復或是大肆改變地貌造成這個土地無法再度利用的這些其實重大的這一個違規還是應該要"},{"start":25841.397,"end":25846.139,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":25870.501,"end":25891.269,"text":"如果沒有意見的話那我們就不予修正。我們第四十條就不予修正。雖然是不予修正可是我個人覺得啦你們這個什麼檢舉獎金啊什麼的啊其實這個在地方上很多人"},{"start":25892.622,"end":25898.665,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":25920.652,"end":25947.96,"text":"是一概沒有啦所以我們講的是重大性的重大性的比如說大面積的青稻廢棄土或是青稻有機這個這個我們在執法裡面都有去訂定出來就很確實把它區隔開來跟現行的規定是是有所區隔的你們執法都有訂嗎?因為你們立法說明也沒看到啦所以執法有齁對有確定喔沒錯我們這執法裡面就已經我們10月31號已經發布了"},{"start":25952.61,"end":25953.35,"text":"文修正草案案。"},{"start":25964.667,"end":25984.081,"text":"條文修正草案案。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員"},{"start":25991.647,"end":25996.436,"text":"表達。好。那我們就請行政單位針對第四十五條表達。"},{"start":26004.242,"end":26011.248,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四年或六年都有不同委員的版本,但是我們希望就是說"},{"start":26027.64,"end":26043.773,"text":"那個幾年之後依中央主管機關指定的日期移病公告那個移病就拿掉因為他已經公告實施之後大家都會有不同的年限"},{"start":26044.594,"end":26045.154,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":26066.568,"end":26067.469,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26090.7,"end":26104.797,"text":"徐宇貞委員林淑芬委員黃潔委員有關第四十五條到底要展演多久?有二十幾個版本表示大家一致的目標就是要展演"},{"start":26105.458,"end":26106.979,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":26136.664,"end":26158.945,"text":"從剛才高金委員的這個發言裡面我是想要再幫這個國土計畫法講幾句話雖然當初是我跟邱文彥委員所立的法律就是說我們當初在立這個法的時候的確我們就思考到很多合理的使用但是沒有辦法合法沒有辦法申請合法所以在特別是在很多原住民地"},{"start":26159.445,"end":26167.848,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"},{"start":26182.17,"end":26207.271,"text":"所以他給地方政府很多因地制宜的這個彈性所以大家要再延幾年其實我個人是最好是認為不要延因為我剛剛講了當初立法我們就思考過需要給地方政府空間和彈性六年又延了三年就九年九年你再加兩年就十一年如果在六年有的案提案提六年"},{"start":26207.911,"end":26208.832,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":26223.146,"end":26248.16,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。我剛剛講阿里山鄉他們就說地方政府如果你地方有特別的需要你可以自行訂制自己的管制規則比如說阿里山有一個阿里山民宿雲林有一個雲林寺廟特區等等這個就是一個彈性啊那在這種狀況裡面我們真的是希望知識提大那我也一併的支持這個高金立委所說的"},{"start":26248.88,"end":26258.845,"text":"因為事實上全國的二十二個縣市已經有十四個已經報到中央來審議人家已經劃設好了沒有必要說全部二十二個都上來我們才要施行國土計畫法也沒有必要這樣子讓那些不願意繳功課不願意做功課的繼續讓他拖吧然後我們已經上路的我們就先走我們就先施行"},{"start":26278.416,"end":26279.197,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":26293.433,"end":26293.913,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":26313.487,"end":26314.348,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":26332.762,"end":26334.483,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":26352.995,"end":26372.261,"text":"那是不是真的就是大家都已經繳了多數的縣市也都乖乖的真的做功課了是不是就讓他們先如期上路所以如果有機會讓他分批實施的話我也非常認同就是大家都願意來做了那剩下三個縣市不願意上路的那也必須要自己來承擔這個沒有如期上路的後果啦"},{"start":26375.842,"end":26377.683,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":26399.938,"end":26402.04,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草"},{"start":26422.595,"end":26424.997,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":26453.236,"end":26470.39,"text":"請您許庭委員我們國土署非常務實直接說建議乾脆保留這也不是在現在這個狀況下也不是一個辦法原因就是因為今天大部分人在討論的時候其實都還是配套還有另外一個就是地方的民意壓力我是覺得要解決這個問題當然就是不厭其煩的說明"},{"start":26473.953,"end":26502.185,"text":"真理愈變愈明,把話講清楚缺乏政策的地方就把相關的政策拿出來比如說農業縣市的一些補償也好或者是趕快把執法的部分像我們有些人會質疑說執法的部分會不會造成地方政府的很多的新增的業務負擔這些東西其實都是在我們徵詢地方政府跟地方民意意見的時候常遇到一些狀況我們立法院特別的地方就是有黨團協商的機制這個東西今天如果交付黨團協商有一個月的所謂的冷凍期那是不是請了內政部跟相關的部會在這一個月裡面"},{"start":26502.785,"end":26528.55,"text":"再次的趕快的去收集意見因為這個已經不是哪一個政黨交不交作業的問題了是不同黨派的立法委員其實大家似乎難得的在好像需要多一點時間方面有高度的共識那如果內政部希望如期的來執行這個利益良善的一個政策那是不是就在這個冷凍期之內把相關的一些說明把它做得清楚能夠把這些東西有更明確的時候在協商的時候大家才會比較有一個判斷的基礎"},{"start":26529.45,"end":26548.045,"text":"所以就希望這個行政院這個地方執政黨這個地方趕快提出相關的配套方案以上好那本席想請問各位我們第45條我們保留送黨團協商有沒有意見是不是"},{"start":26549.935,"end":26557.057,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":26579.625,"end":26582.226,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":26600.45,"end":26603.032,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":26622.815,"end":26623.797,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26642.894,"end":26656.631,"text":"我簡單說明一下先用第一整理規劃因為我們大概從108年開始有第一個示範案以後我們陸陸續續每年都有在辦到目前最起碼也有一件超過37案已經進行規劃"},{"start":26658.212,"end":26682.795,"text":"每年都有高達十幾到二十幾個鄉鎮都有加入所以其實這對縣市政府來講都是一個很直接的規劃權的落實會比起過去區域計畫時代好很多不過也是因為這樣所以鄉鎮地域整理規劃它至少大概如果要有初步的成果大概要有兩年左右再加上還要進入審議程序三年以上是跑不掉"},{"start":26683.576,"end":26711.616,"text":"那所以這個部分當然目前就是因為已經有三十幾個他已經進入了他已經有了甚至已經有成果他們當然會急著想要進去當然也有更多他們想提出申請的其實後面應該要給他一些時間那我們本來的並不是說全部要做好國土計畫才能發佈而是你國土計畫發佈以後後續你還可以繼續提出申請然後繼續因為他放到下一次的同盤檢討他就可以一併"},{"start":26712.356,"end":26730.756,"text":"再加入下次的通版檢討一併再發布。」所以他不會是因為我一定要全部都做了我才能國土計畫法發布。我覺得這樣這一點的觀念是要,但是的確要三年以上的時間才能夠有一個完整的相關地域整理規劃,那是必然的。主席我補充一點的。"},{"start":26731.937,"end":26755.893,"text":"就剛才特別提到說擴調全都擴調歸都要走的全都的情況之下那全國還有幾個幾個鄉鎮沒有做因為剛才書長講的是有三十幾個鄉鎮已經在進行中嘛那你還有多少比例嗎如果高達是將近七成那坦白講這樣的相歸做不到三成的情況之下整個國土計畫我想那個精神會當然無存"},{"start":26756.753,"end":26758.295,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26776.001,"end":26802.7,"text":"不需要?還是需要?因為我們補助他是每年都在補助所以有的成果來得及有的成果來不及那其實我們就是按照順序這一批你可以就進到這一次的那有的比較慢的那你就進到下一次的他還是用這樣的概念就好像以前的都市計畫也是大家陸陸續續花了三十幾年才全部訂完的概念是一樣的那我們也是分批分批進去啦是這樣的一個意思"},{"start":26808.422,"end":26821.332,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文就保留送黨團協商。剛才我們有討論過的有需要協調的還有文件修正的。"},{"start":26823.473,"end":26825.253,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":26839.32,"end":26851.737,"text":"議員已經回應等於都可以照案通過。那有兩項需要協調的也請行政單位跟提案的委員能夠去做協調跟說明。所以我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":26858.385,"end":26873.797,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬"},{"start":26875.257,"end":26897.888,"text":"文修正草案 案。四、сколько審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案 案。五、сколько審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五"},{"start":26899.829,"end":26922.977,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬"},{"start":26926.003,"end":26951.241,"text":"文修正草案案。四、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。三、cellence審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。四、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。三、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。四、cellence審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。五、cellence審查委員吳�"},{"start":26952.784,"end":26960.282,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":26962.889,"end":26989.131,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":26991.252,"end":27018.267,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬"},{"start":27020.268,"end":27038.923,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":27047.55,"end":27070.159,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委"},{"start":27071.904,"end":27096.941,"text":"文修正草案案。四、сколько審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、сколько審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、지막審查委員"},{"start":27114.97,"end":27115.931,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":27146.312,"end":27159.121,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土"},{"start":27162.225,"end":27174.453,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":27182.878,"end":27197.55,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":27210.1,"end":27217.224,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":27235.874,"end":27261.44,"text":"議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文"},{"start":27264.748,"end":27274.213,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案案。四、ympting審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、ympting審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":27292.683,"end":27293.323,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27314.053,"end":27340.194,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra"},{"start":27346.158,"end":27366.458,"text":"文修正草案案案件。四、ympting審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案件。三、ympting審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案件。四、ympting審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案件。三、ympting審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案件。四、ympting審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":27367.058,"end":27382.052,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":27394.142,"end":27400.463,"text":"第八條必須要配合第四條先修正文記。第四條沒有。所以你不接受就改成"},{"start":27425.59,"end":27434.558,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":27448.425,"end":27465.311,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":27475.094,"end":27489.763,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":27494.686,"end":27516.327,"text":"文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條文修正草案．第四十五條條文"},{"start":27517.168,"end":27537.137,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘"},{"start":27537.517,"end":27557.556,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條"},{"start":27558.897,"end":27561.979,"text":"是會長定制的那一條嗎?是會長定制的那一條"},{"start":27581.01,"end":27594.642,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":27604.172,"end":27615.275,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":27624.078,"end":27639.234,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":27646.431,"end":27655.996,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":27668.947,"end":27690.318,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條"},{"start":27694.205,"end":27711.7,"text":"就目前螢幕秀出來的請問鄭天財委員您的意見好那所以我們第七條我們就修正通過還是第七條現在等一下第七條的還有第三項第四項"},{"start":27721.374,"end":27722.895,"text":"文修正草案案。"},{"start":27742.489,"end":27759.475,"text":"所以我們第七條國土計畫法第七條修正通過接著我們第八條是保留那個劉建國委員的我們保留然後接著第23條請秀出協商的結果23條請往下"},{"start":27767.706,"end":27787.82,"text":"前項規則中涉及原住民族土地及部落。第二十三條就照內政部的意見修正通過。接著第三十五條"},{"start":27797.575,"end":27815.727,"text":"涉及原住民族土地或部落者應經中央原住民族主管機關同意。」是修改三十五條第一項。第一項。只有這邊嗎?後面還有沒有?沒有了吼。那針對第一項。"},{"start":27817.858,"end":27842.49,"text":"內政部的文字鄭委員。所以我們第35條也是照內政部的文字修正通過。是在第一階段納進去,不是讓他在後面納進去。後面還是要經過行政院同意。對,條文裡有。"},{"start":27844.244,"end":27846.185,"text":"第四十條不予修正維持現行條文。第四十五條保留送黨團協商。"},{"start":27874.734,"end":27878.622,"text":"今天有附帶決議六項,均照案通過。"},{"start":27889.837,"end":27890.237,"text":"文修正草案案。"},{"start":27914.665,"end":27916.709,"text":"條文修正草案通過。請問各位委員按照剛才的協商結論通過,請問有無異議?"},{"start":27928.424,"end":27951.463,"text":"無異議通過。」那本次會議審查通過之條文相關法制用與授權主席及議事人員整理。那請內政部就本次修正條文如需於立法說明補充文字說明請盡速送至內政委員會列入審查報告。好,我們作出以下決議。討論事項國土計畫法"},{"start":27958.593,"end":27971.98,"text":"國土計畫法等二十七案以併案審查頑俊,擬具審查報告提報院會討論。請問在場委員,我們就經黨團協商,本案與院會討論時有本席做補充說明。"},{"start":27987.981,"end":27990.482,"text":"本次會議到此結束,現在散會。"},{"start":28009.394,"end":28021.12,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第"}]}},{"id":"157284","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157284","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375210e10c7aa45a5cb4868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d91267846fbddf791135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:25:24 - 10:27:36","影片長度":"00:02:12","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T10:25:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T10:27:36+08:00","duration":132,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":3.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.992218750000001,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.649718750000002,"end":42.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.04534375,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.891593750000006,"end":56.680343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.82784375000001,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.063468750000006,"end":77.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.75284375000001,"end":80.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.32221875,"end":81.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.30096875000001,"end":90.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.88596875,"end":98.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.95221875,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.96784375,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.42846875,"end":131.57159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.018,"end":22.052,"text":"主席各位同仁就像剛剛蔓越正委員所說的一樣我們內政委員會其實平常開會大家都氣氛還蠻融洽的遇到問題大家都可以好好的理性討論思考然後最後達成"},{"start":23.673,"end":27.517,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":48.356,"end":74.348,"text":"來處理我們的內政委員會的議程的進行。」所以在這邊我想大家都希望內政委員會能夠未來的議事能夠比較順利、比較順暢的來進行所以我在這邊跟我們內政委員會所有的同仁我覺得我們應該是要這樣子"},{"start":79,"end":97.466,"text":"內政委員會應提供立法院設備以利主持會議及轉播,落實國會公開透明,在會議時不得攜帶麥克風、音響等與議事無關之物品進入會場。"},{"start":99.025,"end":125.348,"text":"我想我們以後大家就這樣子來遵循那這樣子我們內政委員會才在剛麥育貞委員說的其樂融融之下然後可以好好的來開會我在這邊提出這一點我相信以我們內政委員會大家常常開會這樣子我相信我們大家未來可以這樣子來遵守謝謝"},{"start":129.48,"end":130.486,"text":"文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"157283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752aec7835eb87c9622868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d91ee9170943cc9f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:22:11 - 10:25:17","影片長度":"00:03:06","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   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規劃編列相關經費3585萬7千元包括一"},{"start":2570.033,"end":2583.704,"text":"1.辦理就學輔導措施140萬元2.執訓中心行政維持費1599萬7千元3.執訓中心辦理電力修繕工程等第二期1700萬元內部空間設施維修改善146萬元合計1846萬元"},{"start":2591.191,"end":2604.447,"text":"就醫保健方面本會所屬醫療機構推展三級醫療整合照護及多元長照服務推動以人為本資智慧照護積極發展精準健康照護與再生醫學編列經費127億6853千元"},{"start":2609.153,"end":2630.488,"text":"包括一﹐補助各籠種及其分院醫學臨床教學與研究﹐配合國家政策推動精準健康照護產業﹐進行癌症免疫細胞治療等創新尖端研究計劃﹐領航健康醫療產業﹐編列補助四所籠種及其分院11億259萬7千元﹐二﹐"},{"start":2635.086,"end":2639.908,"text":"補助農民及眷屬健保費及健保醫療部分負擔費用,編列經費90億2980萬4千元3."},{"start":2639.908,"end":2641.629,"text":"農民醫療照護編列經費26億3615萬2千元,增列2759萬2千元"},{"start":2655.075,"end":2669.935,"text":"113年7月31日修正作業規定擴增補助對象增列補助農民役此及餵藥材等經費一千三百三十萬元二因應高超高齡社會需求"},{"start":2671.196,"end":2677.42,"text":"高齡分支計劃經費較113年度增列866萬2千元3.依供費生培訓培育人數實需增列272萬元予請參閱請分次頁救養養護方面優化智慧照顧服務營造祥和營養環境拓展社會資源鏈結編列相關經費80億8410萬2千元包括一"},{"start":2698.612,"end":2703.194,"text":"補助救養給予等經費57億46萬1千元（參照長期照顧輔法及勞人福利機構設立標準（編列農家照護人力經費14億7600萬5千元（"},{"start":2714.799,"end":2715.68,"text":"3.農民安養養戶編列經費3億6913萬6千元4."},{"start":2715.68,"end":2721.583,"text":"農家房舍整修編列5億3229萬元包括施治長照萬我園區中層計劃與安養機構房舍及生活設施整建工程等5."},{"start":2721.583,"end":2722.503,"text":"徵購農家大客車以及小客貨兩用車等經費560萬元"},{"start":2743.89,"end":2747.834,"text":"4.服務照顧方面,編列相關經費6億3771萬元,包括1.親韓農民子女午餐補助等1374萬3千元,2.志願服務組長及農心志工"},{"start":2759.145,"end":2782.277,"text":"編列經費一億四千六百六十四萬六千元三﹐急難救助及三節慰問三億兩千兩百五十萬七千元四﹐八二三及六一九參贊義務役官兵﹐慰救養農民三節慰問金等五千八百九十六萬一千元五﹐辦理各農扶處﹐行政維持﹐農民與新住民生活適應﹐適應輔導及表揚"},{"start":2786.099,"end":2795.266,"text":"單身頑固農民善後服務﹐強化海內外退伍軍人聯繫及國軍單身退社服務及管理等﹐8702萬3千元6."},{"start":2795.266,"end":2796.748,"text":"汰換各農服處預使用年限公務車輛﹐即臺中農服處等汽車4輛及臺北市農服處等機車16輛﹐經費883萬元"},{"start":2813.998,"end":2823.203,"text":"⑤退除業務方面,依退休待遇法規,辦理各項退除局域發放作業,編列退休給付等相關經費1056億4261萬元,包括依一次退伍金"},{"start":2829.306,"end":2847.629,"text":"退休奉等人士費774億2909萬8千元（主要系旅奉人員待遇條徵（一、實際給付人數及每人平均領取金額何時增列（二、預注退府基金100億元（三、年改"},{"start":2848.47,"end":2852.992,"text":"年改節省經費役助退輔基金41億2314萬元是優存差息補助135億89889千元5水電優待補助4億94339千元6退除給付作業614萬4千元"},{"start":2869.299,"end":2875.121,"text":"6.人員維持及行政業務方面編列經費38億1066萬5千元包括1.人員維持費35億1806萬8千元2.基本行政作業費2億6264萬1千元"},{"start":2888.929,"end":2903.528,"text":"與請參閱7.第一預備金編列1900萬元結語﹐退府工作關係﹐國防建軍及社會安全勝據本會將持續竭盡所能建構優質高齡醫養環境及照顧服務網﹐完善退府支柱報告完畢恭請指導"},{"start":2912.137,"end":2928.308,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員6假2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台諮詢謝謝主席有請顏德發主委請顏主委"},{"start":2947.54,"end":2969.8,"text":"主委好主委好主委就在上個星期一外交國防委員會到臺中榮總去做視察那這裡我要特別感謝我們陳世安院長做了一個非常詳盡的這個見報可以讓委員們可以很清楚的知道說中榮目前整個的營運那再來也特別感謝我們的傅慶雲副院長有親自做導覽"},{"start":2971.181,"end":2997.362,"text":"委員們知道什麼叫做再生醫療、智慧醫療跟精準醫療等等那特別還有就是有針對這個偏向遠距醫療的這個操作模式呢讓委員有非常清楚的一個認識所以這一次的這一個視察其實讓與會的委員其實是收獲非常的多那我們榮總的這個醫學成就呢在這個國際上受到這個肯定呢也讓我們國人是非常的"},{"start":2998.643,"end":3000.044,"text":"這一點是跟這個主委特別在提到就是上個禮拜我們去做視察的一個狀況其實我今天呢是要來檢討的是我們鄉下農場的這個這個營運"},{"start":3014.551,"end":3024.139,"text":"好,那再來呢,我想要就一些數據跟我們主委做一些做討論,像這個退譜會我們轄下的農場,現在個別有武陵農場還有福壽山清淨還有這個彰化跟台東這五座的這個農場,那當初這些農場的這個設置是為了要輔導這個"},{"start":3035.849,"end":3038.79,"text":"退除役官兵從事農業產銷﹚退展休閒農業及觀光油氣事業﹚可是我們來看一下數據﹚因為隨著時代的轉變﹚我們發現勿農不再是退除役官兵轉業的優先選項﹚我們來看這兩個數據﹚不管是榮民也好或是"},{"start":3060.319,"end":3082.745,"text":"除役官兵退伍之後主要選擇的這個行業還是集中在像製造業、批發及零售業還有志願服務業跟這個引進工程等等所以我們可以看得到就是說這個農林與牧業的這個選擇的比例是非常小的好那我們來看一看就是說"},{"start":3083.945,"end":3091.534,"text":"跟今天我要講的主題有關的這些農場我們先從這個元額的這個缺額的這個狀況來看我們看一看就是說像這個剛剛早上退輔會才提供的這個資料針對於這個預算元額跟現元的這個人數來看的話"},{"start":3104.668,"end":3110.21,"text":"我們看看彰化農場的這個元額是有補足的之外其他的這個農場其實都有缺額的這個狀況發生了尤其是福壽山農場其實一直以來我們發現說這幾年他這個缺額的比例都高達了將近有30%的這個缺額的這個"},{"start":3123.434,"end":3123.454,"text":"復甦山農場"},{"start":3154.115,"end":3155.337,"text":"財政總統的肯定我代表財政總統還有榮燕對委員的指導"},{"start":3169.973,"end":3186.028,"text":"表示感謝,我想我們容院會繼續做服務的工作有關於我們這些農場現在缺員的部分因為早年這些農場經過轉型之後我們也努力的在提升他的一些誘引讓不管農民、農眷或者是原住民"},{"start":3186.768,"end":3187.669,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":3205.91,"end":3230.527,"text":"改善資產環境、待遇、做一些調整、做一些宣導,盡量能夠鼓勵他們。現在農民、農眷,陳儒剛剛委員提供的數字,大概就是四分之一,農民、農眷跟當地的原住民,大概整個農場編制人數大概有四分之一是農民、農眷跟原住民,我們還要繼續努力在往上提振。如果農夫處長有不用做問題。"},{"start":3233.268,"end":3258.848,"text":"謝謝委員關心事實上我們從數據裡面看出來確實如此尤其是福壽山農場我們從台北過去從宜蘭走的話大概要4個半小時才能到如果從台中過去大概也要4個小時才能到而且在高山地區大概標高2600公尺左右所以說在這個狀況之下員工的留任率是低的通常我們工作人員考試以後3年他一定走"},{"start":3259.71,"end":3279.958,"text":"我們想辦法把他留下來給他升職是我是想說是不是要增加一些誘因像右邊這個圖也是我們也看到說就是退除役官兵或是榮眷的比例其實真的是過低的像武林農場福壽山還有這個清境農場你看武林好一點點兩成五是也是榮民權身份我們就是說這些員工那福壽山跟清境的話連兩成都不到"},{"start":3284.36,"end":3313.08,"text":"臺東農場臺東農場"},{"start":3314.421,"end":3334.872,"text":"臺東農場來客數從109年還有1萬多人一直下降到現在113年的10月為止只有2000多人然後農場跟臺東農場的這個遊客數也就剩下這樣真的是非常的慘淡經營那就算是說清淨農場武林農場我們看這幾年來其實遊客數都是下降的"},{"start":3335.712,"end":3348.462,"text":"福壽山農場跟去年比的話你看台也都只有一半的遊客數我想這個部分可能真是我們需要去檢討的這個地方那還有住宿也是一樣看彰化農場的這個住宿率"},{"start":3351.764,"end":3373.738,"text":"到今年為止就6%台東農場就11%只有京津農場跟武陵農場稍微好一點那也不過一半的住宿率而已福山農場也掉到5成以下所以整個來講我們這個農場的經營其實是要做一個檢討因為本席所看到的這個數字真的是慘不忍睹尤其是這個漲化農場跟這個台東農場"},{"start":3376.809,"end":3399.541,"text":"所以處長這部分那還有一點我再補充一下有時間的關係那因為今年年底跟明年初我們臺東農場狹下的東河農莊跟這個壽豐會館就要委外招標我們也很擔心喔像這樣子的一個營運模式遊客數這麼少住宿率這麼低那會不會影響到這個廠商投標的這意願好一併來回答好請問主委"},{"start":3401.494,"end":3417.347,"text":"委員我本人來跟您回答以上的問題雖然我們彰化農場一定農場住宿部分我們已經停掉了包括彰化農場都已經停掉去年就停掉了委外經營我們已經委外經營了所以委外經營數據我們就沒有給他統治但高農農場經營確實不善於地點的關係"},{"start":3424.953,"end":3446.325,"text":"另外受封會館跟東河農莊我們今天尾標現在東河農莊速度會比較快因為受封農場還要經過都市計畫變更以後我們才會委外招標那我們委外案子總用11個案子現在8個案都已經完成簽約了現在3個案子就是嘉義東河還有受封這個近期我們會持續做"},{"start":3447.546,"end":3448.587,"text":"臺東農場已經委外了嗎?"},{"start":3448.587,"end":3454.71,"text":"池上已經委外了整體上來講我們轄下的這五座農場其實有很大的檢討的空間我們看遊客數也好住數也好或是剛剛我們所提到的員工的"},{"start":3468.038,"end":3491.294,"text":"缺額你要如何補助這是環環相扣啦我是這麼覺得所以這個部分真的是有很大的這個檢討空間所以說我是覺得說挫石寨的清淨武林福壽山其實在國際上都是非常有名的那我們如何讓這些農場能夠成為台灣很重要的一個地標之一我覺得這也是非常的這個重要"},{"start":3492.294,"end":3512.85,"text":"主委您有要補充的嗎我們會繼續努力我們近年已經投資了11億5000萬在整個農場的環境還有他的殯儀館他整個設置做整修投資11.5億跟委員報告這個農場他們的盈餘就是投資在安置基金輔導我們退出役官兵的就學就業"},{"start":3513.67,"end":3537.385,"text":"岸志基金的業績來看從110年他是5900萬那112年去年成長到8300萬所以這整個的營運的績效來看他還是在成長的雖然近年颱風啊或者是這個地震相關的受到去國外旅遊的影響是有一些衝擊但我們盡量我們該努力我們都會去做謝謝委員"},{"start":3542.255,"end":3549.259,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員嚴主委請回接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請嚴主委請嚴主委"},{"start":3570.126,"end":3592.056,"text":"主委好首先要跟您討論前一陣子大概在8月左右的時候我們接到了非常多退將的抗議那就是在今年8月我們的嘉義空軍基地開放結果三軍一隊他們演奏的是日本自衛隊的進行曲軍艦請問我們這個嚴主委知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":3595.438,"end":3597.36,"text":"那您覺得這樣子的一個過程是妥適的嗎那您知道軍艦這首歌的來源是什麼樣的嗎"},{"start":3621.184,"end":3638.984,"text":"他是日本上海自衛隊的軍歌那外界會有這麼大的反應在於呢嘉義基地開放是為了慶祝八一四的空軍節這我想你應該很清楚而這個節日呢就是紀念空軍第四驅逐機大隊大隊長高志航"},{"start":3639.565,"end":3665.382,"text":"他在1937年的8月14號的松戶會戰裡面擊落日本海軍航空隊的96式的陸攻轟炸機目前駐守在嘉義基地的空軍四聯隊正好就是高智航當年所待的單位結果我們在紀念這個先賢先烈的日子在他的駐守地演唱日本上海的海上的自衛隊的軍歌您覺得這樣合適嗎?"},{"start":3668.044,"end":3695.405,"text":"那我覺得如果有這個由來演奏這個軍曲是不適合的是不適合的所以大家都會覺得說那我們的這個退伍的軍人比方他去參加大陸的這個陸珠海航展那要被人家提議要砍越退縫可是我們台灣呢在自己的基地裡面去播放自衛隊的歌又該當何罪所以要跟您反映有非常多的退將為此感到非常憤怒"},{"start":3695.965,"end":3721.433,"text":"因為他們過去有一些老兵他們也是跟日本人正面做過戰的或者是他們的遺卷那這些空軍就會覺得在空軍的紀念日814裡面去演奏了這個軍艦也就是日本海上自衛隊的軍歌是非常不妥適的一件行為那這個部分是退將的意見我想我有必要轉達給我們的主委知道"},{"start":3722.193,"end":3723.315,"text":"第2個問題有關於勞動部的標準請問您知道多少錢月薪算是所謂的低薪嗎?"},{"start":3739.093,"end":3762.81,"text":"沒關係我直接告訴您這個勞動部長何佩珊他先前有說勞動部根據這個OECD的定義呢三萬一千元以下就算是低薪可是呢主委我們看一下在親近農場徵才的薪資範圍有好幾個值缺他的月薪範圍有包含到低薪的部分"},{"start":3763.57,"end":3789.263,"text":"比方說觀光行政組的行政助理他就寫到兩萬九到四萬一千八百八十五那他呢其實如果你的起薪是給到兩萬九的話是符合所謂的低薪西餐的三廚也是一樣最低薪資兩萬九櫃台的服務員最低薪資兩萬八千五百九十中餐廳的餐廚最低薪是兩萬九千元"},{"start":3790.043,"end":3817.885,"text":"所以這個就是有低心話的問題另外除了清靜農場以外還有這個福壽山的農場也一樣喔防務員的薪水甚至只寫了28280以上餐廳服務員28280以上可是您知道嗎卓榮泰院長在10月底的時候拍板說中央的約聘僱的月薪要是31449起跳"},{"start":3818.786,"end":3832.236,"text":"所以他講中央政府約聘僱及勞務承攬基層員工月薪應該要高達最低工資的1.1倍也就是31449元請問包含清淨農場跟這個福壽山農場的這一些月薪底薪開到28000或29000的部分請問退府會要如何進行檢討請說"},{"start":3847.927,"end":3874.244,"text":"委員好我是事業處處長楊長正跟委員報告我們當然是這樣子公告是他的所謂所謂基本薪資但是因為我們山高山我們所有農場他服務性質不一樣他裡面的包含了很多績效獎金盈餘獎金我沒有把它算在裡面去最主要原因在這事實上我們經過統計我們平地農場的薪資水準已經達到4萬3千元了我們山高山農場"},{"start":3875.946,"end":3896.587,"text":"所以你聘他兩萬八然後你最後的薪水給他四萬那你為什麼要用獎金的制度而不是直接在他的薪水裡面給予呢因為這會牽涉到很多他後續的保障的問題獎金這個事情呢當然就你發了獎金可是我們希望是在他的薪水裡面有實質的保障"},{"start":3897.208,"end":3916.218,"text":"因為很多的勞工也都碰到一樣的問題在公司裏面說他整個月薪水零了五萬但實際上他的真正的薪水只有兩萬多那這樣的話包含很多包含勞健保勞退等等的這個都會有一些沒有辦法彌補的情況就都會比較少"},{"start":3916.678,"end":3932.748,"text":"所以我要問的問題是既然卓院長已經講了中央約聘僱的薪資最起碼要31449起跳我們退輔會是不是也應該要配合卓院長的政策在最低薪資的部分要寫到31449"},{"start":3935.109,"end":3947.435,"text":"那你獎金或許發少一點最後的結果是一樣的但是要根據中央的政策來約聘僱的月薪最起碼要是31449我不曉得這個主委您怎麼看"},{"start":3948.44,"end":3970.574,"text":"包圍我們明年114年會全面做檢討好全面做檢討我認為是非常需要做檢討的最後我要講一下這個有關於我們退府會照顧很多這個長照的公共化資源的計畫裡面的質詢率過低的情形那包含我現在所列出的質詢率呢很多都不到一半而已"},{"start":3971.054,"end":3983.507,"text":"但我今天要特別談的主要是在這些榮院的部分有很多的分院有短處的情形那包含是我們的埔里分院跟屏東榮總這幾年的營運狀況並不是很好"},{"start":3986.73,"end":4008.085,"text":"那我今天呢因為時間有限要特別請教的是在這種營運短促的情況之下那今年本來要說要漲14%的電價後來醫療院所是動漲那可是明年又不一定如果接下來漲了電費的話這些分院的營運會不會出現更嚴峻的狀況請說"},{"start":4012.959,"end":4034.39,"text":"委員好我是救疫處處長劉俊正跟委員報告目前我們的那個用電度在今年比去年只增加了3%左右那事實上是因為我們的門診跟住院的人次都增加了3.9%增加很正常增加很正常但我問的問題不是這個我問題的是今年是醫療院所動長14%的電費"},{"start":4036.451,"end":4058.073,"text":"那如果你們以現在目前的營運績效明年不見得動長那加了14%的電費之後那你們整體的營運會不會受到影響目前我們算出來整個那個電費的佔率是1.45%那符合這個衛福部他所提到的要在2-3%左右的成本所以目前是在衛福部的規範之內是符合他的比例"},{"start":4058.806,"end":4074.958,"text":"所以你們認為說就算是現在要貼14%的電價也沒有關係是嗎?絕對有關係,我們還是必須要去做一個開源結論的動作所以我希望未來我們也持續幫大家爭取說電費動漲的部分,好嗎?好,謝謝是,謝委員謝謝許巧欣委員原主委請回接下來我們請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":4096.692,"end":4096.872,"text":"主席"},{"start":4107.665,"end":4131.212,"text":"主委好主委好那齁這個因為是預算會期齁所以我都問一些跟之前齁這個執訊有關的然後就是預算相關的事項但有一些呢是在520之前所以呢可能我就再稍微盤點一下這樣子那前面這個是我們根據這個這個現在的我們退伏會的一個報告我們知道我們有第一類還有第二類的這個除役官兵然後有不同的這個"},{"start":4132.413,"end":4151.048,"text":"輔導期限、輔導措施這是目前的核心業務裡面有幾個問題我會從這個核心業務來問主委一定很熟悉所以我就這樣略過我看今年的這個案子我們看到當然還是退出幾副看起來的%增加的比較多"},{"start":4151.788,"end":4170.198,"text":"救養少了一點點這可能只是單純跟就是說救養的人數有關係我覺得這應該都沒什麼問題那救學職訓是增加但是增加的比例看起來沒有到太高所以這個部分待會我會想詢問一下那第一個呢我當然還是先想詢問一下就是剛剛這一個國軍忠誠義務的問題那這邊我是引用這個誓字781號當時這個"},{"start":4176.462,"end":4192.377,"text":"東寶城教授的一個投影片雖然這個東寶城教授的立場常常跟我不一樣不過我們引用他的說法他說這個軍人對國家有的忠誠義務但國家對軍人也有忠誠義務那其實退服會的不管是在發放啊做各式各樣的福利啊等等之類的齁還有對這個"},{"start":4194.098,"end":4213.103,"text":"特約軍人的一個照顧我覺得應該都是後者對不對但是國軍對軍人的忠誠義務還是必須取決於軍人對國家的忠誠義務那最近的這一次的案件會讓我特別有感是因為這個我應該不用講這個案件的內容你們應該都非常的熟悉就是呂律師這一次去這個"},{"start":4214.143,"end":4230.357,"text":"說他見證這一個祖國的強大那我為什麼問這個問題是因為那時候原主委還沒有來就是說在之前的退府會的時候我那時候就一直在問就是說我們針對不管是反滲透法或者說還沒有到反滲透法的階段我們到底在停止"},{"start":4230.797,"end":4231.037,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4247.182,"end":4268.511,"text":"因為按照目前我們的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例的3至1條退輔會在最後一行這邊可以實施分類分級的退輔措施那之前跟退輔會在談的時候退輔會會覺得說我們是一個發放的機關那很多事情是國防部在決定那這件事情確實在最下面這一段在"},{"start":4269.011,"end":4293.826,"text":"上司權益的部分我認為在上司權益的部分國防部大概是有一個比較大的sale就是基本上是國防部在做決定那退伍會這邊只是配合但是現在第32條前半段這個叫權益的停止目前來講有這些跟法院有關的判處徒刑、羈押、通緝這個會有停止那我現在的想法就是我們在停止這一邊能不能夠增列一些條款"},{"start":4294.505,"end":4313.246,"text":"那之前呢這個在溝通的過程當中呢這個退輔會是覺得說這個要慢慢來但是問題是現在這種狀況發生的越來越多了那我們自己是已經可以我們自己已經提了兩岸條例九之三相關的規定但我認為在退役官兵輔導條例這一邊呢其實也應該要有一些相對應的修正"},{"start":4313.846,"end":4314.206,"text":"OK 我先說明"},{"start":4330.939,"end":4346.732,"text":"政府為了核心的職責就是依據憲法我們要國家有義務跟責任對從功報勳對這些退伍的軍人就學就業就醫就養有責任去做照顧跟服務因此輔導條例就產生了"},{"start":4348.913,"end":4373.272,"text":"福島條例主要的屬性就是照顧跟服務退出役官兵的福島安置保安權益的保障這些照顧所以我們的福島當然這樣定定現行這裏面32條之2這裏面所規範的不管是內亂外患跟貪污自罪條例還有刑法那些罪那都是依據刑法或者是違反了兩岸人民關係條例或者國安法"},{"start":4373.832,"end":4399.774,"text":"那到我們這邊我們就具以執行前面有些例子都是這樣的所謂的退退不管是退伍軍什麼樣的人他只要是在前面的權責機關相關的主政機關審定之後我們的退出給予這部分我們絕對是依法行政來做現在還有些案件還正在做所以我跟委員報告這個我的建議是由主政相關的主政機關權責機關去做審認認定"},{"start":4402.976,"end":4419.118,"text":"因為我們是知性單位來做包含這個輔導條例裡面所做的都是依據這個大的原則來做那跟主委報告一下就是說因為我們接下來我們已經也修了外患就是說我們有提出相關的修正兩岸條例93的修正也會出來"},{"start":4419.724,"end":4448.084,"text":"那兩岸條例所在一旦修了以後呢這邊就會搭配就會跟著連動所以呢他既然在下面這個喪屍這邊會連動這個我們基本上我講退輔會也一定沒有意見嘛就是說那邊既然連動了你這邊譬如說你有哪些條款像國安法現在如果說要增訂的話他是不是也要放進來我覺得這邊應該是還好但我想問的是停止的部分因為停止的部分照理說在退輔會呢他有一定的空間可以來做決定這是退輔會可以做決定的地方"},{"start":4448.669,"end":4476.276,"text":"所以就是在還沒有喪失之前的停止他有沒有有一些彈性這個是我們在兩岸條例同步修正的時候會去考慮的因為我不可能在所有的情形在兩岸條例九之三一旦發生了就全部就喪失我們也不太可能做這樣的事情因為他一定會有一些比較灰色的地帶所以如果說今天不是到喪失的程度的話那今天要怎麼做我們在兩岸條例裡面我們自己會去想一些措施當我們在想這些措施的時候呢可能就會請教退輔會的意見"},{"start":4477.896,"end":4493.366,"text":"因為這個畢竟會連動那它有些可能不到上市那它如果再停止的話那有沒有辦法在這邊做一些相關的修正這是我剛剛想要知道的事情所以這個我們就會同步進行因為兩岸條例93的草案我們已經在寫了那外患罪跟國安法的我們已經送出去了"},{"start":4494.394,"end":4511.962,"text":"接下來我要講的就是說這個也是我們在看到就是現在輿論其實跟剛剛這一個主委講的有點類似就是說到底是他就說這個是在羞辱軍人這些人之後還要打仗等等之類的但其實真正在羞辱軍人的是他們"},{"start":4512.822,"end":4526.129,"text":"就是說他們到中國不管是他參與什麼樣的活動他講了什麼樣的發言其實他在傷害我們的國軍也在傷害我們退休的官兵所以這個時候沒有盡到忠誠義務的是他們"},{"start":4527.13,"end":4540.789,"text":"那按照剛剛董寶成教授的意見就是當你今天都連最基本的忠誠義務都沒有辦法做到的時候那我們對於這些人的忠誠義務本來就應該要有所調整那我剛剛也聽到喬欣委員已經離開了在講到說"},{"start":4543.995,"end":4556.984,"text":"關兵奏樂等等之類的但這個並不是直接讓我們現在國家會被侵略會被統戰直接發生的事項所以我覺得當然是不能夠類比的事情如果我們現在對於忠誠義務的內容不夠嚴謹的話之後我們對於這樣的一個給付這些人就沒有成本了"},{"start":4563.949,"end":4586.665,"text":"我記得之前這個顏主委在這個跟黃埔相關的活動的時候其實就做得很漂亮嘛因為他們在做我們同步也進行嘛讓他們能夠去參與我們自己這邊的活動然後不去參加他們的這就是一個很好的預防措施所以比較好的預防措施可以擋下大部分的這些我們說過不管是統戰等等的行為但一定會有少部分的人他完全不管"},{"start":4587.365,"end":4606.639,"text":"他不管這些他就是要去違反國家的利益去做這些事那對於這些人我覺得要升高他們做這些事情的成本因為他們是已經不會因為你的一些經濟啊等等之類的一些利益而是他不計這些國家的利益他就是要做那這些人我們必須要提高他的成本我覺得這是未來重要的政策方向"},{"start":4608.019,"end":4627.048,"text":"時間到了我問最後一個事情就是我剛講的職牙輔導那一塊因為剛剛我看到職牙的預算是有增加的其實那個%數雖然看起來很小但其實增加的按照我們這個好幾億的預算來講當然增加的也算多啦但是我看到這一次的預算裡面有提到就是這個職牙探索"},{"start":4628.368,"end":4646.814,"text":"我看到明年好像還是15個場次但是因為我在之前跟這一個退服會就是在520之前的時候他們有一直跟我們講說質押探索這個成效是不錯所以這邊也是因為我們畢竟就是幾個小時的質押探索那我之前也有提過就是說我記得澳洲可能是三天美國是五天就比較長"},{"start":4647.674,"end":4660.2,"text":"那如果說場次現在沒有辦法實質的增加,譬如說報名等等之類的,那能不能夠時間稍微拉長一點啊,什麼等等之類的,讓預算能夠更好地發揮在有效的這個質押探索上?"},{"start":4661.283,"end":4664.724,"text":"謝謝委員我是舊學界的處處長跟您報告我們現行的子癌探索營是三天兩夜現在已經變三天兩夜了太好了那所以說現在時間已經拉長了那場次的部分呢我們一開始就是三天110年開始就是三天兩夜現在是每一年今年是115場次那明年我們跟國防部已經協商他還是維持15場次後續如果國防部有需求我們可以配合偵辦"},{"start":4688.991,"end":4689.271,"text":"謝謝委員 我們會跟國防部加強宣導 謝謝"},{"start":4715.131,"end":4715.351,"text":"陳冠廷委員"},{"start":4746.195,"end":4746.275,"text":"主席"},{"start":4754.955,"end":4775.4,"text":"陳委員好主委好我們直接到第一頁主委這個是之前的一個新聞重大新聞就是說這一個有一個監委指出一個承認空軍保防幹部涉及職棒遷讀任職中他沒有接受這個完整的保防然後松子部在110年1月"},{"start":4777.92,"end":4805.069,"text":"假借自證連結給舊市長官的名義進入該指揮官的重要軍事指揮區域,夾帶手機。不管是任職前,任職中,或者是任職後,可能因為過去跟一些我們的這些長官們都熟識的,不單指這個案件,會不會有一些相關的破防的可能性?"},{"start":4807.249,"end":4834.248,"text":"現在中共的滲透是無所不用其極尤其是現退役這些軍職我想都是他們利用的一個媒介主委我們講這些事情是因為說我發覺到說可能我們現在都是用人與人之間的人際關係那他們可能會比較不注重就是有安全核可之後的這一種"},{"start":4835.129,"end":4861.58,"text":"基本的這個安全的這個守則有的時候有的時候在一些看似是我們最中心最中區的指揮部但是可能會利用他過去在軍中的可能是做到非常高官那可能大家看到也都熟識之後就不會起疑心可是在不起疑心的狀況之下他還是可能會進去某些管制區域夾帶手機然後做拍攝一些重要文件然後再轉交給中國的"},{"start":4862.66,"end":4890.088,"text":"相關的情質單位那在松子部這個新聞被這個算是說被被查出來之後那我們是有點擔心說這樣會不會以後變成常態就是說不看你的這個安全保障的這個名牌那直接是用你過去的舊事同袍或者是長官對部署或者是部署對長官的關係這個部分"},{"start":4890.948,"end":4908.258,"text":"主委怎麼看提高警覺尤其是保防警覺我剛剛跟委員報告了現在中共對我們的滲透是越來越頻繁所以每一個官兵的保防警覺是非常重要的我們很多案件自查自查就是內部自己的人檢控"},{"start":4909.298,"end":4909.978,"text":"進去各個不同的機構,他們是認人還是認證?"},{"start":4936.826,"end":4940.649,"text":"主要都還是認證我們進入一些管制區是認人還是認證?證就是你的身份證明從證認到人因為證裡面這個人的相片跟人一樣對"},{"start":4954.702,"end":4955.443,"text":"是有可能啦 因為就是熟視嘛"},{"start":4976.804,"end":4995.093,"text":"那我們是不是盡量可以請作為跟我們的退役的軍官們來去宣導儘管這個我們有一些其實就是一個非常有聲望的這一些退役將領我都可以理解但是就算是如此我們還是要有一個機制一個辯證對那比方說我們立委進去營區不僅是要遮號還有看一下"},{"start":5003.077,"end":5004.018,"text":"委員會主管收支部分．．．．"},{"start":5029.614,"end":5056.365,"text":"當人員眾多的時候其實很難去分辨是真是假所以我們是希望說未來的建制是有一個更加完善電腦的你就刷卡等等的方式不過還是以法治為主不要用以人或者是以人因為主這樣子的安全的屏障我們認為會比較不夠不過沒有關係這個是我們希望可以一步一步的去改變的"},{"start":5057.694,"end":5078.818,"text":"最近我們常常在看就是退江赴中這件事情這過去台灣跟中國之間的關係你說中華民國跟中華人民共和國的關係或者是兩岸開放探親等等這個都可以理解可是我發現到說許多的將領不管是退役的我看到一些在電視節目上面"},{"start":5079.839,"end":5103.177,"text":"其實他們如果是提出來說對我國軍的建言建議那針對我們的缺陷來提出看法其實美國很多將領嘛從這個印太司令的這個上將退役少將退役他們也都是在針對他們自己的國防軍備針對自己的軍種來提出各種不同的建議甚至有些時候是很嚴厲的批判"},{"start":5103.817,"end":5118.216,"text":"但我們不會去懷疑他們的愛國之心嘛為什麼因為他們是提出建言之後提出一些他們認為他們看法跟解放那基本上我必須說實話跟他們從軍跟他們退伍之後的言論其實沒有差太遠"},{"start":5119.468,"end":5144.906,"text":"大概就是有些不能講的可能退役之後可能會直接就是提出他們的過去在因為有層層的這個官僚體制上可能不能講他們會講但是原則上大方向都不變可是我們看我不特別講哪些媒體但是我們看到說很多在中方支柱的就在中國在中國大陸那邊的這些媒體我們看到有一些我們退役的這一些人士"},{"start":5145.726,"end":5161.075,"text":"基本上講的就是原則上就有一點走向綏靖或者是甚至是投降主義那這是有一個很大的差別一個是針對我國的國防提出建言跟提出批判另一個是歌頌我們敵對方的能力"},{"start":5161.855,"end":5162.095,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":5184.005,"end":5201.136,"text":"什麼部分我們可以來講,因為徒法不可以自信,一定是有什麼原因波動著他們,讓他們會對中國的嚮往這麼大,對台灣自己的國軍的批判,不是批判,甚至就是鄙視這麼多,那同時過去也都是將軍都是在統領一些部隊的"},{"start":5201.476,"end":5203.078,"text":"主委有什麼辦法可以來去管控?"},{"start":5222.361,"end":5238.709,"text":"是無所不用其極包含所有的這些利誘這些利誘就是統戰一手軟一手所以這些退將因為可能是被這些統戰的一些伎倆可能一時有一些疑惑"},{"start":5239.629,"end":5254.746,"text":"我覺得最重要的居然的核心價值就是要忠於國家忠於人民忠誠度這個最重要謝謝主委我不認為完全是理由而已就是一定有某一種情懷這個情懷你要用什麼樣的論述來去打破"},{"start":5255.647,"end":5276.572,"text":"對,一定有情懷,就是說哇,這個過去不管是他們的這些生活背景、教育背景那對中國他們的他們對中國的復興的渴望可是我們必須要怎麼樣訴說說中共的強跟中國的復興是兩條路那中國的復興的定義不應該是用中共方面的定義我們可能是要在論述方面"},{"start":5277.672,"end":5306.578,"text":"我不認為絕對是第6而已喔一定是他們在某種論述上面對於這些比較年長的這些將帥他有一定的吸引力那我們要破這個論述的方式是什麼那或許賴總統的這個中華民國論述或許是一個方式但是或許只有在軍中的你們曾經在軍中的你們可能會思考出一個更好的方式來去破這個論述比方說這個中華民國在哪裡黃埔在哪裡我覺得這是一個不錯的論述"},{"start":5307.518,"end":5308.859,"text":"我們會把委員的指導轉達給國防部相關單位"},{"start":5330.754,"end":5331.455,"text":"主委請林楚瑩委員上台質詢"},{"start":5370.479,"end":5373.12,"text":"臺北榮總陳院長臺中榮總副副院長高雄榮總陳院長跟屏東榮總吳院長"},{"start":5391.018,"end":5402.158,"text":"主委好首先我先問一個基本資料的問題喔主委我想請問一下我們退輔會所服務的這些榮民榮券大概他都是從幾歲到幾歲"},{"start":5405.226,"end":5427.922,"text":"我們第二類是比較年輕第二類大概就是二十五歲二十六歲開始然後一直到現在我們有百歲的人類是好所以但是當然有一些是比較早就退役的這個軍中弟兄那麼成為榮民但是多數大概都是年長者對不對是"},{"start":5428.763,"end":5450.679,"text":"而且我們後面您現在背後的這些醫療院所的院長們也都非常的辛苦他們除了提供醫療服務然後尤其是在這個醫療之後常常發生的一個問題就是理賠的問題我不知道主委自己本身都怎麼樣處理你的這個如果就醫之後的理賠或是主委身體很健康沒有用到過這個相關的醫療理賠"},{"start":5457.287,"end":5457.447,"text":"就參加禮賠"},{"start":5486.585,"end":5487.146,"text":"在2021��2021年5月"},{"start":5510.111,"end":5526.863,"text":"受險公會跟所有的保險公司跟北榮等22家醫院他們推動了保險理賠一起來那一起通2.0他的好處是什麼就是剛剛我講的其實我們很多的"},{"start":5528.479,"end":5529.259,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":5544.685,"end":5563.845,"text":"跟保險公司的理賠那自從有了就醫這個所謂的保險理賠一起通之後他們可以透過線上一件服務跟其中一家受險公司來合作之後就可以連結到多家這是可以避免"},{"start":5564.406,"end":5593.881,"text":"就是一直一直不斷這對醫院來講也是減少人力而且是綠色環保但是呢1.0 1.5到2.0其實其中是有差異的並不是所有我們的現在所退服會所管轄的所有的榮民的醫院都有參與那麼1.0 1.5跟2.0我想要問一下劉處長您知不知道差異在哪裡其實我上面已經寫了"},{"start":5595.587,"end":5619.194,"text":"報委員1.5跟2.0的差異就是原上它是全自動化那1.5跟1.0它可能是屬於半自動半人工的狀況所以說是不是2.0會是更優於1.5是2.0是目前最便捷的跟醫院的電腦資訊系統能夠嫁接的速度最快的我講一個比較直白的就是1.5它所拿到的是PDF檔"},{"start":5620.074,"end":5644.529,"text":"PDF檔就是像我現在手上這樣一張紙列印出來然後丟進去變成一個無法動的照片檔但是它無法嫁接受險公會相關或者是其他保險公司的系統就是沒有辦法去直接申請還是要透過人力所以2.0可以直接嫁接這些保險公司對嗎是可以直接嫁接就可以避免到人力上面的"},{"start":5645.45,"end":5672.437,"text":"的使用但是不知道處長知不知道其實現在只有北榮有2.0的系統是我們會裡有做過一個統計原則上那個北榮是最早22家加入之一所以他從1.0慢慢進展到現在是2.0那其實我們還有9家院是屬於1.5還在等待進階當中好但是我為什麼會特別請今天幾位院長跟您站出來的原因是因為本席在要資料的時候"},{"start":5674.158,"end":5698.198,"text":"19號我拿到的是告訴我這個2.0加入的醫院包括臺北臺中高雄跟屏東4家都已經加入了那麼過去月本席待在財委會我透過受選工會所拿到的資料卻不是這樣只有北榮加入這是如果我沒有深入追我今天站在這裡質詢的時候我所拿到的可能就是一個錯誤的資訊"},{"start":5700.46,"end":5724.884,"text":"處長你知道這個事情嗎?知道,因為那個我們有從現在去做過一個調查所以剛剛報告的是最新更正的資料好,那麼我想要問一下這個陳文明陳院長您現在是唯一有加入2.0系統也就是說只有在北榮就醫的榮民榮眷他們可以直接快速的借接到其他公司其他的受險公司保險公司來進行理賠所以2.0跟1.5之間的差異是什麼?"},{"start":5727.785,"end":5747.49,"text":"包括林委員這個是很重要可以讓病人更方便我們從1.0版就開始做發現治安跟隱私沒有外洩的問題這個是前提因為保護治安跟隱私那所以實情的沒有問題之後我們大膽的加入2.0就是不用人工上傳那和保險公司自動接接"},{"start":5748.51,"end":5772.542,"text":"那那個病人不用到處去申請那個診斷書那這是一個非常便民的做法我相信我們輔導會各個兄弟醫院應該都會跟著好所以我想要請問的就是目前我整理的資料就是如上只有北榮加入了2.0那麼已經上線1.5的臺中榮總高雄還有屏東跟北榮的新竹分院其他"},{"start":5773.562,"end":5779.91,"text":"已經簽約但是沒有上線的這些分院甚至於是沒有加入的分院要如何處理呢?處長"},{"start":5783.371,"end":5811.618,"text":"報告委員我們現在還有6家沒有加入主要是第一個考量是因為他們來開這個診斷證明的人數比較少所以當初他們就沒有想到要去加入那事實上透過這個總院的加入的經驗之後會分享給分院來做一個輔導尤其是資訊的部分的嫁接的部分一定要先確認不會影響到整個醫院治安的運作所以這部分我們會去慢慢輔導其他6家醫院來加入這個系統有沒有一個時間表或期程因為剛剛前面前言講這麼多就是因為我們希望能夠"},{"start":5812.901,"end":5828.476,"text":"服務變名快速而且精準那麼已經上線的已經簽約但沒有上線的這五家他的時間點是什麼時候會完成然後沒有加入的你的時間期程又是如何現在可以給我答案嗎還是回去之後要要交報告"},{"start":5831.932,"end":5856.136,"text":"我們現在下去瞭解一下各院的目前2.0跟1.5執行上有沒有自然難行的問題如果可以的話我們盡快去輔導這6家看可不可以在3個月之內加入好因為你想想看從鳳林難道還要跑到臺北的北榮嗎不可能那麼對他們這些其他地區其實就是因為比較偏遠偏鄉或者是距離城市比較遠那麼這個服務我相信對他們來講會更需要好那麼3個月內"},{"start":5860.277,"end":5872.849,"text":"希望能夠加入好嗎那其他的齊成再請我們辦公室還有這個相關的國防委員會的委員來做報告是好接下來最後一個我想跳到這一題要問主委其他院長可以請回我想這個等一下11點鐘我們台灣的"},{"start":5876.243,"end":5881.247,"text":"英雄健兒們這個臺灣男團我們的棒球隊將要迎戰復賽之後的首場戰役那麼本席其實過去也都是棒球迷只是現在比較忙沒有那麼多的時間可以來看跟主席借最後一點時間就是榮工棒球隊我想對於許多棒球迷來說過去都是非常重要的但是隨著這個2009年這個榮工迷化之後就走進歷史了"},{"start":5904.204,"end":5925.555,"text":"那我要強調的是包括像牛棚投手王建明或者是外野守備的教練張建明他們其實過去都是我們榮工輕棒出來的我們知道要養一個棒球隊不容易我也不會要求退府會去做這樣的事情但是我們退府會有22家轉投資公司對吧"},{"start":5926.983,"end":5951.1,"text":"那這22家轉投資公司有沒有可能也一起來贊助成為贊助商也好或者是用其他的方式來支持棒球好嗎各位委員報告當年的榮光棒球隊主要是政府全額投資的人民公民公司那現在已經停止了109年這公司也停了那現在我們輔導會這些轉投資事業"},{"start":5953.542,"end":5980.852,"text":"他主要是民營的公司而且我們退伍會只有部分的持股那麼相關的營運他主要挹注在我們安置基金就是安置我們退居官兵的就學就業的方面他的營運是這樣子來用所以謝謝委員給我們的肯定那在這些投資公司我想在做這件事情的人力方面而且這裡面還牽涉到很多的民股要董事會要決定可能有一些自然"},{"start":5981.172,"end":5988.621,"text":"好我只是覺得過去喔這個融攻棒球在許多人的記憶當中是非常光榮的一頁但如果有機會的話退服會轉投資的這些事業體其實也可以考慮因為這對於公司的ESG也是可以加分的好吧謝謝"},{"start":6017.659,"end":6038.513,"text":"接下來請林益君委員謝謝主席請嚴主委有請嚴主委主委好你知道退伍會以安置基金投資持股超過百分之二十的公司有幾間嗎幾間"},{"start":6052.731,"end":6075.209,"text":"瓦斯公司15間那主委你知道我們花東地區民眾其實現在想要用的天然氣的瓦斯生活就是大部分都是叫瓦斯桶還有集熱水電熱水器那目前花蓮縣傳統的我們的瓦斯桶大部分一桶大概是675元重點是如果遇到沒有電梯的公寓常常還要被加價"},{"start":6076.01,"end":6091.725,"text":"在瓦斯公司才會願意搬瓦斯上樓他所以想問一下就是退伍會所屬轉投資這個事業中擁有15間的天然氣的事業公司所持股高達一定的程度但為何不願意會會和其他的相關部會請你們所轉的投資"},{"start":6094.528,"end":6094.548,"text":"委員．．．"},{"start":6120.526,"end":6149.436,"text":"我們投資的新農公司他們在跟經濟部申請在宜蘭地區投資就事實上已經去不管了一不管就碰到民意非常非常大抗爭所以退場了把投資當作認定的損失來退場那目前只有一個不是我們輔導會的新興槍械器公司他在宜蘭地區有用潮運的方式去經營當地的工業用戶目前為止這個樣子"},{"start":6155.174,"end":6171.071,"text":"那可不可以退委會回去的時候跟其他部門研究一下臺灣東部地區架設天然氣的可行性的評估然後來解決我們花蓮地區只能使用這種統裝的瓦斯的生活需求這樣可不可以三個月給一個素面報告評估呢"},{"start":6172.502,"end":6179.367,"text":"那接下來我要問一下那個微電腦瓦斯表那主委你知道嗎現在全臺灣有350萬的天然氣的用戶嗎依照每年連線每年需要更換的數量不同但退伍會轉投資15間的瓦斯公司裡面供給天然氣給163萬戶的民眾使用到現在9月底平均有59.43%"},{"start":6198.402,"end":6208.824,"text":"那裝置的微電腦的瓦斯表不到6成甚至更低然後新家與新坪分別只有裝24還有25那根據本席瞭解一旦裝了這個每個月民眾都要多負擔40塊到340塊的費用那瓦斯是屬於公用的事業這樣硬體的設備成本要來這樣攤是不是會讓民眾分擔這樣會不會讓這一個執行不容易呢"},{"start":6228.367,"end":6241.398,"text":"維電腦瓦斯表從102年只有7.12%提升到今年113年9月已經到62.82%了所以它也是廣受大眾的願意接受"},{"start":6242.319,"end":6246.301,"text":"會不會說我們現在其實還是沒有很大的征服就是說是不是因為民眾的成本增加所以大家讓這種裝置率會比較低呢會不會有是不是因為這個樣子所以讓這個政策推動不容易因為這個如果政策沒有推動好是不是會影響到整個公共的安全呢"},{"start":6268.231,"end":6271.645,"text":"這個基本費主要跟他的維修或者是換線都有關係"},{"start":6273.632,"end":6278.896,"text":"因為我看一下他這個你們退伍會轉投資這15間的瓦斯公司其實他們的稅後盈餘有總共大概高達41億元其實比台電還會賺錢所以既然你們轉投資這個有那麼高的盈餘是不是請退伍會你要回去研議一下跟怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論那瓦斯公司可以配合政策的時候應該可以優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用讓這一個"},{"start":6301.134,"end":6305.732,"text":"政策可以更大幅的讓大家都可以去裝置率變高"},{"start":6308.854,"end":6336.388,"text":"報告委員這個部分由我來跟您回答事實上我們雖然推廣率只有60%還有成長的空間因為維電化瓦斯其實它使用上是安全因為它有自動遮斷的功能但是我們的主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率它有非常非常嚴格的規範不能由我們15家因為全台灣有20幾家瓦斯公司如果我們在做這個事情的話會不敷成本"},{"start":6337.805,"end":6352.342,"text":"為電腦表從早期開始設立的時候大概一個成本2300塊到2500塊而且這個部分是不收費的然後成長到兩年前的時候他的成本已經到3500塊了那這部分基本費一直沒有調漲"},{"start":6353.283,"end":6369.571,"text":"那當初主管機關設計這個基本費的時候他包含了換表維修還有後續表外管的維修換製等等都算在這個裡面的所以說使用上雖然普及率逐漸的提高那我們這個我們還要再加強宣導"},{"start":6371.252,"end":6394.997,"text":"那有些鄉下地方的老人家他可能是認為說我機械表機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊比較便宜一點事實上是有差異性的這個我們要宣導機械表的精準率只有3%可以正負3%微電表微電腦表是1%所以這方面使用起來是有差異的但是我們會來持續宣導這個加強也會跟我們的主管機關持續溝通請主管機關"},{"start":6400.858,"end":6404.543,"text":"繼續精算說這個基本費到底應該收多少錢才合理。"},{"start":6419.119,"end":6432.434,"text":"根據本席研究預算發現111年還有112年裡面編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高那請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢覺得是退出劑"},{"start":6439.642,"end":6468.675,"text":"退出給予跟發放的人數有關係因為如果人數增加我們的退出給予就會比較高那人數少他退出給予就會比較少跟人數有關係那當時你們用這個是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢這個是不是動用第一預備金呢如果是動用預備金的話是不是檢討是不是相關不合常規的動資的方式呢有沒有什麼改善的方法呢因應的措施呢"},{"start":6469.866,"end":6497.217,"text":"委員好 我是退出役副處處長跟委員報告那感謝委員的關切那有關於這個去年近兩年人數都有增加那我們編列的預算主要是依照國防部他會提供這個需求以及我們這個在這個我們既定的這個指令退休部分的人數來編列"},{"start":6499.502,"end":6503.234,"text":"那今年的狀況是不是有掌握呢今年不會申請預備金"},{"start":6504.949,"end":6523.043,"text":"所以是不會超時這樣就對因為我這樣就是要提醒說按照中央各主管機關編列114年度的概算來應該要注意的是像有第5點的規定就是說各機關依照法律的義務所必須重大的支出應該逐項的檢討匡列重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理那退除役官兵退休給複資人事費法律義務的支出要核實的編列"},{"start":6533.211,"end":6542.72,"text":"那可以做到嗎?因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休的給付的人事費每年都是大概超過700億元而且逐年的在增加那這樣國庫的財庫是真的財務是真的負擔是蠻重的但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休的權益與軍職人員的退服的"},{"start":6551.809,"end":6570.125,"text":"的基金採取的永續所以請退伍會要好好的掌握這些官兵離退的情況而且做好因應的措施因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後的他眷屬的生活那可以做到嗎對我們會跟國防部密切的聯繫密切的配合精算人數然後稀釋編列好謝謝"},{"start":6593.548,"end":6599.611,"text":"吳思堯委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員不在接下來我們請馬文君委員上臺質詢謝謝主席麻煩請顏主委請顏主委"},{"start":6620.544,"end":6641.442,"text":"主委我們今天大概是就我們退府會114年在整個主管預算報告的一些相關資料那想要請教主委就是說我們在這個審查的內容裡面看到我們退府會明年主管預算大概編列了1309億"},{"start":6643.764,"end":6661.656,"text":"委員那比113年度1290億餘元大概增加了19億那輔導榮民就學就業大概退輔會很重要的任務之一那我們看到就是說在立法院預算中心"},{"start":6662.736,"end":6666.599,"text":"的執訓中心辦理訓練就業情形來看111年跟112年我們的全日制的養成訓練班就業率都有到88.2%"},{"start":6680.49,"end":6693.939,"text":"雖然都超過八成可是我們在112年的時候好像這樣第二類的退出役官兵還有借退的官兵他的就業率其實是較之前大概都下降這個原因是什麼有沒有去討論過"},{"start":6696.167,"end":6720.913,"text":"基本上最後的就業率這個數字都能夠符合我們目前的一個目標拿今年來講到目前來看也是可以到年底可以符合我們的目標那之所以會有一些些微的下降可能我們研判我們有做分析那跟官兵的他的自家規劃或者家庭因素有一些調整所以就百分比來看大概有2%的比例是有一些變化"},{"start":6723.018,"end":6738.325,"text":"因為我們主要我們如果看到他在下降這個法我們其實也剛修訂不久所以其實能夠看出他的下降或升高其實也是很短的這樣子的一個數據資料可是當他下降的時候我們還是希望說可以真的找到他的問題點不要說你已經執行很長的時間然後才發現這個有很多不符需求的那到底是哪一部分因為我們在"},{"start":6750.351,"end":6754.173,"text":"今年一月份才通過國軍退除役官兵輔導條例的一些條文修正那就業穩定津貼列為常態化就這個部分因為包括你有參與這個執訓的他每個月第一年每個月可以領四千到一萬二"},{"start":6770.199,"end":6774.205,"text":"那沒有參與的沒有參與執訓的每月可以領4000到8000這個期限都是一年嗎那如果說像你每個月都可以領4000到12000大家還不願意我想除了剛剛說他的職涯規劃"},{"start":6785.902,"end":6788.423,"text":"還有他的家庭因素以外因為你每個月可以多領這麼多我覺得他這個應該會是很重要考量而且當初我們在制定這樣金額的時候是希望可以有吸引力的所以像這樣子會不會是我們之前一直在提的就是說我們的課程內容"},{"start":6806.087,"end":6825.644,"text":"是不一定是符合他們的所需比如說像我們常常是配合政府的政策政府的政策不見得是你在社會上跟一些相關的技職有專業的人才可以跟他競爭所以比如說像現在無人機很盛行好像就一直在排無人機可是每一個地方發展的不一樣無人機當然很重要可是不是他們適合的"},{"start":6832.85,"end":6854.04,"text":"那類似這樣子包括以前我們有很多的烘焙的這些課程那其實真正從事的還真的不多尤其現在你要跟其他可能學校出來的這樣子去做競爭好像也不是那麼容易所以就這一些還有沒有什麼可以更精進的一個做法"},{"start":6855.165,"end":6884.069,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想我們也可能要針對剛剛委員指導的真正的問題在哪裡要找出原因來那他到底為什麼沒有去就業而且有這麼好的一個穩定就業基金這個配套的措施那可能就在工作的契合上所以將來怎麼樣強化產訓合一就能夠讓他就業率到100%那我這訓出來之後他在各個行各業各企業他就可以都能夠百分之百能媒合那還要再做生育生育層的調查跟了解"},{"start":6884.409,"end":6888.872,"text":"因為我們看到其實最穩定的大概就是像保全啊什麼這些相關的長期以來這個部分好像是非常穩定那如果說就我們在退伍軍人這些相關的他比較可能有經驗也好或者他比較容易去執行的這樣的相關的職業我覺得那個可以去強化就這個部分我們還是希望就他過去的經驗"},{"start":6912.73,"end":6928.765,"text":"還有我們開了課程下去做一些調整不要看讓因為我們看到報告的內容是說我們成效非常好可是他的就業率又是下降的這樣是矛盾的所以我們還是希望可以有一些比較有效的一個做法那另外就是我們也看到在"},{"start":6934.161,"end":6948.401,"text":"明年一般行政還有基本行政工作維持還有約用人員的籌金相關編列預算上面我們看到退輔會回覆的說明裡面114年要禁用約用人員大概有9名"},{"start":6949.562,"end":6959.208,"text":"每月的薪資年終獎金還有顧主負擔的全民健保費等等那大概編了722萬7千元這9名約顧人員裡面包含人事處有一名他這一個我們的回覆是說要辦理榮民公司他的退府業務相關資料建檔工作在事業處事業管理處也增加了6名這都是臨時人員他協助辦理榮民公司的清算完結"},{"start":6979.932,"end":6995.948,"text":"然後他的薪資大概每個月有73000元那剛剛提到的人事處的那個每個月有5萬元我想要知道說榮民公司我們已經從很久很久以前都一直說已經要結束可是到現在"},{"start":6996.448,"end":7012.962,"text":"又因為這個相關的業務去聘請臨時人員他的原因是什麼那他是辦理什麼樣的工作他的薪資可以有五萬元跟七萬三千元如果他是很專業的或者我希望可以說明清楚因為最近大家對於像這樣臨時人員的薪資是有關注的"},{"start":7018.12,"end":7040.905,"text":"發言委員那個榮民公司109年就清算就結束了那行政院給我們的命令是明年114年1月1號要由退府會把原來榮民公司在承辦這些後續的這些措施的人員我們要全部吸收就是到我們退府會來做這些清算的工作詳細公用內容會等一下請處長跟你報告吸收什麼樣的人員"},{"start":7041.805,"end":7049.85,"text":"就是原來在榮民工田公司是辦清算工作的因為當年他們的保險費都已經發了那現在要追繳"},{"start":7050.999,"end":7079.961,"text":"那到133年才能夠全部追繳完畢那些都是我們都是原來我們退伍人員嗎?都是榮民嗎?都是榮民工程公司那可是你榮民工程公司可是我們在相關的條例裡面也限制了說我們如果是退伍軍人你有上限啊你如果說還是在我們政府部門相關工作的話你的上限三四一四零現在當然到三萬六千多可是你這個一個是七萬三千多一個是五萬"},{"start":7085.366,"end":7096.395,"text":"委員我是事業管理處處長跟委員報告我們109年融工公司進入清算到今年年底為止我們已經大幅縮減99%點多的業務"},{"start":7099.369,"end":7102.072,"text":"這幾個人從109年開始他原本就是榮民工程公司的人留下6個人來幫我們協助我們109年開始才禁用的那個時候的人員預算是編在我們榮民公司的清算階段"},{"start":7122.17,"end":7138.299,"text":"那現在音樂清算要結束了要回到我們輔導會來因為行政院已經通知我們了同意我們114年的1月1號開始所以說這些人就從榮民公司清算的階段沒有你告訴我們因為退輔會照顧的是榮民"},{"start":7139.62,"end":7163.599,"text":"今天如果這些人我們榮民公司的所有相關業務或者清算的業務都已經結束以後我們還要用這些人然後他的薪資是七萬三跟五萬我們想要知道他未來是要做什麼工作我們榮民公司業務結算之前現在還有勞保補償金的追償還有七億八千萬要追回來這是第一個第二個我們還有六件訴訟案"},{"start":7165.34,"end":7192.851,"text":"還要保固需要用到7個人然後他們的薪資要7萬3千元比你們在限制自己退伍軍人的金額還要高一倍以上所以這些都是因為他們都是屬於勞工的身份張珠榮民公司就是用這些錢請他們來執行公司因為他們在榮民公司年資都20年以上了而且裡面還有工程師有會計專長的人員"},{"start":7194.172,"end":7215.394,"text":"你把那幾個人的相關的背景資料提供給我們在預算審查的時候我們再來看看我們不是說如果你有一些專業那你有符合這樣的薪資我們沒有意見因為其實台灣長期以來是處於低薪的階段可是我們現在要說的是榮民公司已經結束了"},{"start":7215.854,"end":7224.896,"text":"然後你卻要繼續用7個人而且他的薪資不低的情況之下來做這些事我們不知道做什麼事因為你每年我們在審預算的時候退輔會都告訴我們我們中平公司已經要完成了已經結束了然後什麼都已經做的差不多你現在又要花這麼多的錢然後去執行這些工作請把他的執行業務還有他的必要性提供給本委員會提供給本席參考好不好什麼時候可以送到"},{"start":7245.728,"end":7246.408,"text":"馬文君委員黃仁委員"},{"start":7273.2,"end":7278.162,"text":"有關於我們目前來講很多的退將或是軍事官的反應非常的激烈這個有關於國軍官兵的退休退職給付改列為國防部的預算"},{"start":7303.24,"end":7320.511,"text":"那這個部分來講的話我想這個很多的一些一些外界的聲音是不是要迎合美國的GDP的5%還是GDP的3%然後再把總預算用在國防預算裡面那你的看法勒?"},{"start":7321.263,"end":7346.221,"text":"報告委員我們這個退出集體預算編到哪裡都有時代的背景我們從1979年做一個劃分1979年之前他這個退出集體預算他是編在國防部的是國防部的預算那到1979年當時外面有聲音有輿論就是說他占中央政府總體預算太高比例太高所以就把他轉到我們退府會來"},{"start":7347.883,"end":7372.364,"text":"102年組織再造．組織再造就是把預算編列跟執行發全部都由退股會來做一百年到現在那最近外面有一些這些意見那我想在退股會的立場因為也不可否認當前整個的大環境其實是有一些不一樣時代背景都不同那到現在當前那個時是有一些不一樣"},{"start":7373.044,"end":7398.744,"text":"你過去擔任過國防部長國安會的秘書長參謀總長及國防的重要的要職我相信對於我們退降軍事官也好他們非常的在意這個部分本來你們退不會占總預算的就如果我們將我們的這個退休的退職給付的"},{"start":7399.77,"end":7414.325,"text":"總預算將近佔百分之八十 百分之八十點六四總預算的百分之八十點六四 所以你們過去所制定出來的制度都非常的好"},{"start":7415.026,"end":7435.508,"text":"那一下子要把他轉為國防部今天我特別要跟各位特別要提醒國防部的前櫃是列管的是現役的軍人國軍官兵退除役委員會的權責是列管在以退伍軍人"},{"start":7436.109,"end":7461.234,"text":"所以如果現在將退伍軍人的業退縫移給國防部將司機退補會成立的宗旨那另外就是並且會使退伍軍人的權益受到影響所以這個是非常嚴重的事情啊所以你們要三思啊因為原來所制定出來的制度都已經非常的完整那你們退補會所所有的管理的這些相關的"},{"start":7462.014,"end":7478.884,"text":"不管是退伍軍人到我們的農民精英都非常的有次序的所以一下子改為這樣的話是不是對他們來講不公平奉獻一生在國軍退伍之後新華省退不會來照顧你的看法"},{"start":7479.764,"end":7508.431,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想這整個加拿大怎麼變革就基於國家安全的考量國家安全的考量怎麼樣做比較好誠如剛剛委員的指導國防部他是建軍備戰他是以戰性為主他現在預算是三區分人為作為加上軍頭那麼對國防戰力最有影響幫助的軍頭軍事投資所以在軍事投資這塊部門能夠增加更可以凸顯我們的國防戰力提升"},{"start":7509.071,"end":7515.357,"text":"你還沒有回答是不是隱和美國的GDP的5%那個金額可能會很高"},{"start":7522.895,"end":7538.46,"text":"我們不應該因為美國的挑動然後造成我們自己本身把整個原來的一個制度又重新的編列然後把預算弄在國防部裡面的這樣是不是符合了GDP的3%"},{"start":7539.56,"end":7557.697,"text":"所以這個是你們要思考的地方那另外就是有關於我們新興百貨的董作之爭在媒體報導裡面就退不會所屬的新興大眾百貨現任董事長游志煌任期將以明年的二月到期那"},{"start":7558.377,"end":7572.187,"text":"民進黨高層有意要讓給立委高嘉宜接任之前的人士證實高嘉宜實在是在董座的人選名單中民國也有3到5名的人選角逐退會之前回應"},{"start":7573.668,"end":7601.807,"text":"現任的董事會由智煌任期明年二月才屆滿任期屆滿時,輔導會將依程序辦理理險,秉持開放態度納入由廠官協代表組成之投資事業人士審議小組公正領險,其能為公股舉財,強化投資事業經營一律事業經營有效的成長。"},{"start":7603.728,"end":7621.159,"text":"報告委員有關外界報導的這一則新聞事件就是高嘉瑜小姐接任我們新興大眾百貨公司董事座因為現任的有董事長他是2月明天2月他才屆滿所以我們還沒有啟動相關的人事作業什麼時候啟動還沒啟動什麼時候啟動何時啟動那將來大概7000會7000一個月因為2月份屆滿嘛"},{"start":7627.583,"end":7649.566,"text":"那啟動之後就是由場觀學員他們變成人事審議小組去審議你們都已經公開了嘛秉持開放態度納入場觀學代表組成投資事業人事審議小組這是你們已經對外公開的機制一定要遵守這個機制另外"},{"start":7650.547,"end":7665.263,"text":"另外本席要提醒我們的主委以上信息請退不諱一一的回答消息的真實性第一個關於新興百貨新動作是否已有來自各界的推薦了"},{"start":7666.783,"end":7692.23,"text":"新英百貨新董座是否已經存在首位的人選名單高嘉宜是否在董座人選的名單中是否有人向退補會推薦高嘉宜或提出這個想法如果有的話誰推薦的是誰提出的高嘉宜角逐新英董座新英百貨的董座"},{"start":7694.031,"end":7710.306,"text":"這個代表是什麽?明股還是光股?你來回答我們跟剛剛委員報告的,我們還沒有啟動這個人事作業所以相關的訊息,我們都還沒有接受相關的訊息好,既然沒有啟動或是領銜,所以剛剛我提到6項6項,剛剛我已經提示了6項"},{"start":7716.512,"end":7733.554,"text":"這個六項就是是否來自各界的推薦還是已經有存在所謂的人選的名單那另外就是懂做的人選名單中是不是有高嘉宜這個都是等等都已經給你提示了所以我們要回歸到你們所公開的"},{"start":7735.657,"end":7749.995,"text":"臨險的公正公平的角度希望你能夠秉持這樣的精神不要因為是不是化解民進黨在2026年基隆市長非上億人選的出入問題所以這個就是"},{"start":7751.096,"end":7770.353,"text":"是不是有這樣的一個想法然後呢來擺平希望能夠不要讓他選基隆市的市長然後給他一個位置這樣的一個等等的一個說辭所以主委你們要審慎的考量我們按照機制來進行好謝謝委員謝謝黃仁委員您主委請回"},{"start":7780.458,"end":7808.232,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員上台質詢好主席各位委員請言主委請言主委政委好主委好"},{"start":7810.329,"end":7832.822,"text":"這個首先先讓你看這個民國77年5月15號當時的退府會習立農主委含負答負這個內政部吳博雄部長他特別親自發文答負給吳博雄當時的內政部部長"},{"start":7833.936,"end":7849.152,"text":"同意將現未利用的土地46.526公頃徹銷撥用歸還那因為是原住民的一個土地當初因為退除役官兵要輔導"},{"start":7850.492,"end":7876.77,"text":"有這樣的一個政策所以當初就這個撥用給這個退輔會那因為實際上退輔會也沒有用到這個這筆土地所以後來歸還那現在這個主委你很清楚這個因為現在要從農的退出役官兵很少了"},{"start":7878.053,"end":7905.802,"text":"所以現在要這些過去撥用的土地就你們去做這個委外經營當然這個委外經營有它的一些目的沒有錯但是我沒有現在沒有要請退伍會說要把這些全部還也不是這個意思最主要的是什麼這些退伍會所管理的土地"},{"start":7906.926,"end":7923.792,"text":"我們原住民就一直在繼續使用也謝謝退伍會過去在這麼長的幾十年來並沒有把我們原住民趕走因為這個土地"},{"start":7925.32,"end":7953.987,"text":"當初退出役官兵在那邊使用那認為原住民在這邊傳統的從祖先留下來的他還在繼續耕作甚至他的房子在那邊也就讓他繼續做相安無事那現在是已經這個因為原住民族基本法規定政府因這個歸還原住民的土地"},{"start":7954.938,"end":7970.456,"text":"所以行政院也合訂了增化邊原住民保留地的一個政策跟計劃只要符合77年2月1號以前使用祖先的土地"},{"start":7972.113,"end":7985.281,"text":"就可以申請徵劃編為原住民保留地就可以取得所有錢這個是政府的政策也是根據法律的規定所以這個部分要請這個主委"},{"start":7986.98,"end":8010.306,"text":"我們沒有說要拿新的土地沒有就是主先留下來的土地能夠依行政院的政策依原住民主基本法來歸還給原住民是不是請這個主委因為你也上任把這樣的一個只要有原住民申請的部分就尊重"},{"start":8011.909,"end":8025.917,"text":"尊重行政院所定的這些政策計畫也尊重鄉鎮公所審查的一個機制包括縣政府審查的機制可以嗎"},{"start":8026.779,"end":8045.167,"text":"各位委員報告我們目前接受申請就是剛剛委員所提到的原住民申請的增畫片有54公頃51公頃我們都已經同意了還有3公頃現在目前是在鄉公所審查當中鄉公所審查我們將來多多配合你講那個50幾公頃是歷年來的另外最後"},{"start":8053.137,"end":8068.848,"text":"就是要特別跟族委你也從軍中很久然後也擔任過國防部部長原住民從軍的比例尤其是志願役的兵"},{"start":8071.109,"end":8099.287,"text":"我們是百分之十幾的比例百分之十幾的比例很高我們原住民的人口佔全台灣只有百分之二點多但是我們是百分之十幾所以他的相關的這些就業尤其是志願役很年輕就退了知道吧很年輕他沒有升到士官的話很年輕就退了所以怎麼樣去協助"},{"start":8101.523,"end":8128.299,"text":"讓我們的部長你也知道現在兵越來越少志願役越來越少你要有這個誘因誘因就是退輔會原住民的部分你們就開放提供請人事行政總署你們可以先辦理開竊我們有原住民行政特考有原住民行政特考"},{"start":8129.161,"end":8129.501,"text":"政天才委員"},{"start":8168.295,"end":8175.218,"text":"謝謝主席 請各位先進 有請退伍會的主委 邱主委請嚴主委 嚴主委 嚴主委賴委員好 主委你好 這個雷神說他那個被美國的國會監察體系"},{"start":8191.56,"end":8202.151,"text":"這個查出來有弊端啊這裡沒有詐欺的事情退錢呢總共退台灣52億雷神這個事情在你國務部的任內嗎是不是這個委員長講這件事我不是很清楚52億"},{"start":8208.325,"end":8213.627,"text":"五十二億啊今天大媒體都講了雷神有個弊端然後美國國會查出來了說要賠總共都要好幾億美金吧其中一部分是台灣的那外面就說這個時候是你當部長的時候嗎不是 不知道回去查一下好嗎回去瞭解一下我們要知道你的一些看法這個"},{"start":8237.458,"end":8240.422,"text":"這個過去你在當部長的時候請問啊你在當部長的時候對於美國我們跟美國軍購那個價格都不能殺價的事"},{"start":8249.625,"end":8273.707,"text":"委員軍購這一塊我們有我們的機制就是他一定要在我們的五年建軍計劃裡面然後經過部類有三個系統是不是符合作戰需求這個第一關符合作戰需求才會進來第二個就細分細分就是委員所指導他的價格他的市場會做一個比比較不是一加"},{"start":8275.288,"end":8289.697,"text":"這個細分寫完最後第三部分才是頭綱去找錢要買預算版所以這三個步驟在我當部長的時候那因為我離開我不知道這三個步驟是一定要有經過這個程序來你那個是講過程我講結果我已經看到了就是為什麼買的武器都比國外貴的這麼多就變成說我們好像一點籌碼都沒有"},{"start":8301.654,"end":8324.812,"text":"就好像他講什麼多少是什麼,比如說死神無人機,我們就比國外買的,別的國家買的貴了好幾倍啊,難道不是嗎?死神無人機那時候是你在當部長的時候買的嘛,死神無人機,是不是?應該就是我剛剛跟委員報告,你的作戰需求,打的需求,因為不可否認,有些高科技精密武器裝備,你不能不相信。我就問你一句話啦,"},{"start":8326.118,"end":8333.101,"text":"是不是面對美國強武器採購就是他說了算連這個50號也是他說了算應該不是這樣子我跟你講這句話是因為顧立雄告訴我這樣子啦欸 我在問你這個啦所以這個嚴德豐說不是我們有談判籌碼然後呢顧立雄說我們沒有談判籌碼這個是我要問的啦你不知道我的陷阱在這裡喔"},{"start":8353.988,"end":8354.408,"text":"現在的情勢跟以前不一樣"},{"start":8383.442,"end":8383.602,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":8395.578,"end":8413.25,"text":"教召教育召集教召我認定有辦過教召幾次現在有一些精進的一些措施時間也加長了然後頻次也增加了對現在好像可以訓練武器嘛是不是對訓練打靶什麼之類的射擊對射擊嘛你那個教召的地點都選在哪裡戰術位置所謂的戰術位置對戰術位置就是你作戰在哪裡就選在哪裡教召是"},{"start":8425.247,"end":8452.66,"text":"有沒有在大學裡面印象中因為這是後備指揮部底下跟後備也是國防部管的後備指揮部王牧部長不是每一件事都非常清楚這個你要了解啊這麼重要的事情叫招這麼重要的事情以後如果老公要來的話我們要動員我們的後備軍人要去上前線的這麼重要的事情國防部長你說的我不知道"},{"start":8454.321,"end":8464.127,"text":"我講他有他的一個考量應該是戰術位置在那附近戰術位置在哪裡就定哪裡好這句話非常好那為什麼選擇政大我們政大校友大家放炮而且問了教育部長教育部長不知道教育部長不知道"},{"start":8477.096,"end":8482.721,"text":"阿民進黨不是高舉黨政軍要退出校園嗎?阿軍隊怎麼開進校園?裡面還有射擊咧?阿幾百人在政大校園裡面要待一個禮拜以上怎麼會這樣子呢?怎麼這麼離譜呢?開倒車啊!"},{"start":8496.738,"end":8508.042,"text":"沿德國不當國防部長以後我們一些都亂了套 開倒車啊 郭立雄開倒車軍隊大喇喇的開進大學的校園大學校園是多麼敏感的地方啊黨政軍要退出校園結果我們現在軍隊後備的叫召大喇喇的開進大學校園不能夠接受啦"},{"start":8525.918,"end":8527.459,"text":"接下來我們請葉元芝委員上台質詢"},{"start":8563.918,"end":8564.981,"text":"麻煩請主委請言主委"},{"start":8574.31,"end":8597.098,"text":"主委好我是來自板橋第一次跟主委見面因為在我們板橋有一個板橋榮家那其實我是蠻肯定退輔會因為有針對板橋榮家那些我們著名的長輩有時候時不時會舉辦一些活躍老化的課程譬如說有一次是跟那個臺北榮總合作找一個老師辦一個體適能的活動"},{"start":8599.219,"end":8621.958,"text":"我去看我覺得那個效果非常好那個辦完之後長輩們還想說可不可以自己希望說那個課程可以延長我覺得這個是很不得了為什麼因為以前我們在地方政府在推動這種活躍老化課程動健康的時候都要拜託長輩有的時候都要拜託他們出來那有的時候像有些男性就比較不喜歡出來女生出來活動比較多"},{"start":8622.708,"end":8651.215,"text":"那龍家的課程可以讓長輩們自動希望說那個課程可以延長那我就覺得這個算是效果很好那第二龍家也有跟台一大好不好因為旁邊是台一大嘛也有合作說辦一些音樂的課程這都很棒那我是想問一下主委請問一下我們明年的預算裡面有編多少是用在這種幫助龍家我說說全國啦不見得是板橋多少是這種活躍老化的課程是有多少"},{"start":8652.823,"end":8662.078,"text":"報告委員我們用在救養這塊的預算有80億的預算用在這一塊我們活躍老化啦針對這個項目請救養處處長跟您報告"},{"start":8666.57,"end":8694.556,"text":"委員好我是舊行養護署處長鍾一國那有關你講的文康活動這一部分不是文康活動活躍老化對活躍老化像一些辦理那些活動的話我們都憋在文康活動活動會裡面那每明年的話都有編列稍微多一點是是是處長聽你聽你這樣回答我發現我們退伍會還沒有跟上我們高齡社會的時代現在高齡社會來臨其實各機關都非常重視活躍老化"},{"start":8696.221,"end":8702.429,"text":"這個你們同意嗎那在我們的農家裡面有很多長輩其實我覺得農家應該有系統性的在做活躍老化"},{"start":8703.237,"end":8725.645,"text":"做回老化的結果是可以讓這些長輩在不管是身體、心理、心靈、人際、健康各方面都有提升為什麼我覺得農家有一個先天優勢因為我們在活躍老化指標裡面有一個叫做交通的便利性就是所謂接近性你的活動如果辦在太遠的地方他不願意去但你在他的社區的門口辦或者他家隔壁辦他也願意參加"},{"start":8726.718,"end":8746.283,"text":"那今天榮家的長輩就住在那邊我們也有場地嘛如果你有系統性的舉辦活躍老化的課程的話其實我覺得對這些長輩的幫助很大啊這個都是有實證研究的嘛所以我是建議退輔會啦我不知道說現在還來得及來不及其實你們應該框一筆預算來就是在做活躍老化就是去跟"},{"start":8747.179,"end":8748.119,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":8775.785,"end":8804.354,"text":"去培養人際健康這個是現在大家各機關都很主要在推的東西可是我剛剛跟你們詢答的過程當中我發現你就把它編在文康費用文康是什麼意思文康就是大家出來吃吃喝喝然後錢花下來不講求任何的活躍老化效果我覺得非常非常非常可惜所以我不知道說主委跟處長是吧能不能研究一下你們有很多資源在健康方面有"},{"start":8805.094,"end":8813.823,"text":"有北榮啊對不對然後在心靈什麼科方面用板橋來說旁邊就藝術大學啊台藝大啊這些都是可以用的資源只是說你把預算編了"},{"start":8815.441,"end":8843.763,"text":"跟他們合作來推動這個東西我不知道主委你覺得或處長你覺得這個方向可行嗎謝謝委員指導我們榮家都朝向家庭化社區化來這個目標來努力那剛剛委員指導跟學校外面社區接軌來辦這些活動不是活動是系統性的高齡教育的課程幫助活躍老化這個思維跟你講的思維是完全不一樣辦一些課程了解就是讓活躍老化的課程"},{"start":8844.984,"end":8869.208,"text":"當然他可能也是會活動的形式來表現但他主要目的是活躍老化嘛我知道主委或處長可以朝這個方向嗎是 因為像板橋農家您講的這一段系列性的事實上各農家跟周邊的大學都有在做我會朝這方面來努力啦不是 這都一次性一次性一次性我講的是系統性的嘛吳副主委跟你報告一下"},{"start":8870.309,"end":8883.483,"text":"市長向委員報告我是副主委我主管農院跟農家那有關於剛剛委員所提到那個提示人活動其實他是我們在高齡補助這個農總這邊在整體的規劃上面"},{"start":8886.766,"end":8901.979,"text":"幫榮家所規劃的體制人活動我知道那這個部分啊這個我剛剛有肯定你們我現在講的是系統性對我剛剛有講好幾個指標出來嘛系統性的來做嘛這個系統性不是說好像散彈打鳥嗎沒有沒有先向委員說明一下我們是委託我們榮總高齡醫學中心在這方面做的規劃到我們榮家去落地執行對他只有體制人啊對對沒有不只不只那細節的部分我想這個部分這樣子好不好因為"},{"start":8914.469,"end":8914.649,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8930.465,"end":8930.966,"text":"接下來我們請洪森漢委員上台質詢"},{"start":8975.106,"end":8975.266,"text":"黃委員好"},{"start":8989.249,"end":9013.632,"text":"主委好,主委我其實今天想要其實也是針對這個退輔會下的容院一些相關的議題來跟主委跟院長討論院長其實我們看到行政院其實通過了這個護理人力準備中長期計劃那看了衛福部最新調查的數據那在這裡我其實是想要給退輔會這邊一個肯定"},{"start":9015.393,"end":9036.101,"text":"也就是說在公職護理師比例調升的方面其實退府會狹下的醫院確實在表現上面是領先於比如說教育部所狹下的臺大的醫院包括國防部的軍醫院還有衛福部的主管的部理醫院這部分其實你們做得不錯然後我覺得是要給予"},{"start":9037.441,"end":9038.101,"text":"委員會主管收支"},{"start":9060.291,"end":9060.451,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9091.624,"end":9109.725,"text":"理解的跟承諾的其實有很大的落差所以他幾位這些議事都來跟我們說到此後盡心盡力完成院內各項任務但到此後的薪資不如之前承諾的金額速度詢問建議後都沒有明確的改善措施跟啟程只好離職"},{"start":9111.021,"end":9128.794,"text":"那也講到這個御理容院醫師出走顯示南花蓮的醫療不足但醫療不足已經是整個東部南回山地偏鄉的老問題那當然有部分受健保影響但是這些薪資上面的問題讓近期"},{"start":9131.276,"end":9143.846,"text":"這些醫師我們叫做用腳投票就他們離開的趨勢跟離開的速度看起來更快甚至有很多其實在服務七八年的醫師就這樣離開花東了"},{"start":9146.857,"end":9169.535,"text":"那我想其實陳院長應該很清楚因為陳院長之前也有在鳳林鳳林醫院就知道在鳳林醫院有服務過原本醫療就不足尤其是值班的醫生就不足當有值班的醫生因為這樣的原因在離職的時候剩下來的值班醫生他的工作量只會更大而且會大非常多"},{"start":9171.209,"end":9200.371,"text":"那如果在薪資還是就像這些離職醫生說的不如原本之前承諾的金額狀況下非常有可能合約到了以後就不想再留了所以其實這些醫生都說還持續留在醫院其實都還沒有到診所的基層其實照理來說是我們在容院體系裡面要非常非常珍惜的人才可是卻因為這樣的原因都走了而且我擔心的事情是會有骨牌效應"},{"start":9202.552,"end":9225.656,"text":"這個部分,院長,你覺得?謝謝黃委員,因為我在花蓮大約兩年,對基層、對花東我是非常的關懷那因為0403地震、0725的凱米颱風,的確造成一些人要過去有一些影響但是我跟委員報告,其實過去花東的同仁的薪水是在我們的分院裡面是最高的"},{"start":9226.096,"end":9242.258,"text":"但是給他們高薪本來是應該的但受到一些種種因素造成以後業績比較掉下來所以有一段時間是真的薪水是的確下降了那北榮也積極在努力也派了幾個重要的人而且啟動一個最重要的花東區域聯防"},{"start":9243.72,"end":9248.126,"text":"委員長 但是區域聯防的醫師會幫忙職業班嗎我們跟他協調他們現在不太願意但是幫我們看門診當門診多的話業績上來薪水就會變高"},{"start":9262.544,"end":9279.985,"text":"區域聯防當然是一個好的做法可是他們不會幫忙職業班所以現在大家最焦慮的事情最憂慮的事情是這些會值班的醫師更快速的要離開那留下來的壓力負擔就更大就可能會更想走"},{"start":9282.427,"end":9292.606,"text":"這裏面變成是一個負向的循環所以我也肯定區域聯防的做法但是很明確的區他們不會幫忙值班啊"},{"start":9297.451,"end":9301.013,"text":"北榮現在就努力在派一些優秀的人下去"},{"start":9324.529,"end":9349.518,"text":"那連5年都有剩餘第二個我們看到立法院預算中心的報告在這些北榮的分院裡面目前我看到只有花東的三分院其實是由贏轉虧的其實其他的都是由虧轉贏其實很清楚所以院長我這邊想說的事情是說院長我不知道你會不會有這個決心我們其實在經費上面也其實還有剩餘"},{"start":9351.092,"end":9375.188,"text":"能不能夠針對這些醫師的尤其是花東三分院的醫師他們在薪資上面的這個支持跟幫助還可以再更大如果我們整體來說是有剩餘的大家也知道這個我們現在的影響我其實覺得我看的這些相關數據我認為做得到院長你做得到嗎是報告委員一定會努力但就是不影響總院的"},{"start":9376.257,"end":9377.92,"text":"若符合法規一定會支持"},{"start":9392.261,"end":9420.798,"text":"符合法規下面盡力的支持我覺得這部分我們願意來跟這個北榮來做這方面的協調好不好因為我現在講的不是說你們要不要支援的問題我現在講的是實質上面的物質條件的問題物質條件不到你一直說我要鼓勵大家可能大家也不一定會想去我覺得這是我們現在看到的狀況所以院長我自己很希望在這方面可以看到其實院長很多地方做得非常好一樣看到院長在這方面的決心因為我知道你也真的待過花東所以你是非常非常清楚知道"},{"start":9421.258,"end":9421.438,"text":"發言委員．．．"},{"start":9438.439,"end":9438.659,"text":"主委 院長 可以嗎"},{"start":9455.235,"end":9481.125,"text":"剛剛院長已經跟您回覆了是合乎法定範圍我們都會可以合乎法定範圍裡面我們來趕快邀請這些基層發動三份院基層醫師研商中長期的方案應該沒問題吧是好謝謝院長再來下面我再一分鐘我要再提一下我知道目前北榮的醫師每年至少1800小時去支援這是剛剛院長說的其實這要部分也謝謝院長有這樣子的措施"},{"start":9482.225,"end":9501.603,"text":"但有一點其實我們也聽到確實現在很多醫師都礙於我們這個叫做知己數額表其實裡面可以提供的這個相關費用的協助看起來我目前收我看到的資訊是已經動漲7年了"},{"start":9503.712,"end":9504.652,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":9525.444,"end":9528.765,"text":"致集大膽向行政院及衛福部爭取。"},{"start":9538.45,"end":9567.686,"text":"現在大家都在講總額的問題大家現在大家在講點數的問題我覺得這些討論都很正向但我們這邊也動長了7年那合理的增加來提高大家去支援的誘因讓大家更有動力去如果退輔會跟院長願意把這件事情擔起來來向行政院提出我們也很願意從國會的角度來支持這部分主委跟院長可以嗎?可以 謝謝委員沒有問題那什麼時候會提出這樣向行政院提出這樣的要求一個月內"},{"start":9570.764,"end":9573.468,"text":"報告委員我們會盡快盡快多久時間"},{"start":9575.998,"end":9576.198,"text":"一個月可以嗎?院長"},{"start":9602.779,"end":9610.042,"text":"好謝謝那幾個承諾我們會再跟退輔會還有跟北榮來做後續追蹤謝謝謝謝委員謝謝紅衫漢委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員上台諮詢謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請主委請言主委"},{"start":9640.586,"end":9659.974,"text":"總統先生昨天下令霸凌的這個事件那要求所有的行政部門公部門一週之內全面的去了解去檢討您做了嗎相關單位"},{"start":9661.318,"end":9677.675,"text":"我們會裡面針對內部的管理第一個我們設置主委的信箱任何人都可以投訴到我的信箱那我每天都會看那如果有質疑的一些案件我都會交代我的辦公室主任通知相關的處"},{"start":9678.656,"end":9679.337,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9705.697,"end":9708.459,"text":"在退伍會你是農民醫院的主管機關醫院同樣的醫院的血汗醫護的這個議題護病筆的這個議題"},{"start":9735.55,"end":9751.226,"text":"醫院護病比跟委員報告我們所有的容院我們公職的醫生的比例我們是符合相關規定我們現在才缺0.4那總共衛護部比例大概是12%我們是低於這個比例的所以我們人力沒有問題"},{"start":9754.929,"end":9778.622,"text":"三班護兵比全域我們也沒問題我們16所容家容院都是合乎相關規定的那問題就是在這個夜班還有幾所容院是比較比例是沒到達那個標準那我們現在就努力就是在做招募然後薪資待遇的調整各容院我們由總院都在做管控"},{"start":9779.451,"end":9797.837,"text":"因為有了這個事件我們還是要警惕血案醫務已經在民間有印象印記在尤其特別像懷孕的護理人員醫師也好我們都要特別照顧因為血案醫務"},{"start":9798.797,"end":9798.957,"text":"．審查委員．"},{"start":9820.484,"end":9835.583,"text":"勞動部公告,僱主給僱傅的勞工工資計算方式,至分鐘為止,沒有滿一小時的,他要算一小時,即使你做30分鐘,他也要算一小時。"},{"start":9839.565,"end":9860.93,"text":"在目前為止我們的計算方式你包括了你16間的這個農總體系的醫療機構以及我們的農民之家跟農場這些的加班費是不是還是依照對不對還是依照一個鐘頭他未滿一個鐘頭還是算一個鐘頭我們就是這樣按照委員剛剛講我們是這樣做的他不到一小時我們給他算一小時"},{"start":9861.97,"end":9890.89,"text":"對一定要如此做因為我們不希望說讓員工他有所疑慮大家依法來做好好的照顧員工我們現行這樣做團結才能夠來提升那接下來本學要請教在你的轉投資的企業當中你很多的高階主管你很多的高階主管都是從我們的君子來轉所以目前我們轉投資的這個企業到底現在他的績效如何總共多少家"},{"start":9892.07,"end":9892.691,"text":"我們有22家轉投資公司"},{"start":9913.244,"end":9926.477,"text":"我們的每年的盈餘,因為我們都是戰股,攪到我們安置基金的錢,大概都有12億,投資報酬率大概有十幾%十幾%?那賠錢的有幾家?22家裡頭,賠錢的有幾家?"},{"start":9934.505,"end":9957.336,"text":"沒有,今年已經沒有了,去年因為疫情,前年因為疫情的關係,我們的客運公司是有賠錢的現在已經轉虧為盈了,到今年9月份為止,兩家客運公司的盈餘都已經到了兩千多萬了,已經慢慢在恢復了"},{"start":9958.341,"end":9978.994,"text":"本席要強調的也就是說因為以往我們很多的高階主管甚至有很多我們轉投資都是由我們退伍會的這個主管或者是我們的員工去代理的也不是代理去就職的那本席要認為你們應該可以去盤點一下"},{"start":9980.555,"end":10002.311,"text":"因為現在非常的競爭你們可以去盤點一下現在好但是可以好上加好一些專業的技術專業的領域那你必須的確需要派出一些專業的人才你才可以逐步上升因為非常的競爭尤其明年川普上任之後"},{"start":10003.112,"end":10017.092,"text":"全球大家都說很多的未確定性在他的字典裡頭最重要的兩個字就是關稅這個是他的字典裡頭最重要的兩個字關稅所以我們也必須嚴正以待"},{"start":10018.376,"end":10038.342,"text":"也必須去盤點從我們的人力方面該當要有專業人力那應該要去做調整那該當我們要怎麼樣整個布局的一個調整我想非常重要因為在未來明年度我們必須會接受到很大的挑戰而且不是我方"},{"start":10039.471,"end":10069.097,"text":"能夠去做決定的當然我們如果把我們的基礎面做得更好那當然我們會更強所以我希望用這個來勉勵你去盤點看看你的22家裡頭你所派出去的不管是我們的將領不管是我們退伍會內部的人員那你應該去對照一下主管機關單位你應該去對照一下他是不是在他的專業領域裡頭我們不需要不希望只有站的一個位置這樣對我們整個團隊是不好的"},{"start":10070.287,"end":10092.905,"text":"主委你可以認同這樣的方向嗎?謝謝委員的指導,我們會因應未來的情勢做一些盤點,怎麼樣去因應,我們會指導我們轉投資世界這樣來規劃。對,你們轉投資的,你把它盤點出來,然後你也順便資料給本席,你有所謂哪裡做調整的,給本席,我們一起加油,讓我們的台灣更好,謝謝。謝謝委員。"},{"start":10097.278,"end":10100.081,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瑩委員 願諸位請回邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在麥玉珍 麥玉珍 麥玉珍委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在蘇清泉"},{"start":10119.118,"end":10124.643,"text":"蘇清泉委員不在 洪孟凱委員不在鄭振淺委員不在 羅庭瑋委員不在"},{"start":10135.865,"end":10164.765,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均與發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有王定與委員提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期所定"},{"start":10167.982,"end":10186.834,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案關於國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管收支部分本日完成報告及尋答預算提案於11月28日下午5點截止收件預計於12月5日提出提案"},{"start":10187.935,"end":10197.951,"text":"請退府會於收到提案內容後﹐把握時間與提案委員做好溝通﹐以利審查進行本日會議到此結束﹐上會"},{"start":10222.769,"end":10223.43,"text":"審訊委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"157302","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157302","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375283bc47fdddc8182a868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d91e7ecaafb1c2cb07b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"10:48:21 - 10:49:48","影片長度":"00:01:27","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T10:48:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T10:49:48+08:00","duration":87,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.730343750000001,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.872843750000001,"end":29.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.06846875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.40596875,"end":87.13971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.755,"end":25.921,"text":"感謝主席。我們各位委員大家好。現在所提的《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。一半控五年,《國土法》已經通過。希望可以有更好的《國土計畫》案。二半是政府要求準備好。所以一半十年,我們政府延長實施。過了這麼多年,"},{"start":30.362,"end":33.823,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":59.453,"end":66.276,"text":"條文修正草案案案。四、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。六、지막審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。"}]}},{"id":"157301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637526c8835d565b60a2e868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d914c05adb7ad1365b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:47:04 - 10:48:13","影片長度":"00:01:09","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T10:47:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T10:48:13+08:00","duration":69,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.39721875,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.016593750000002,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.94721875,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.06409375,"end":65.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.16784375,"end":69.43784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.427,"end":11.114,"text":"政府訂定國土計畫法的本意是在促進我們國土有效的利用採試地適用的規劃方式來達到都會鄉村永續發展的目的"},{"start":23.247,"end":44.71,"text":"國土計畫法原定的這個指甲是縣市政府在114年的4月30日公佈國土功能分區土進行相關土地的使用管制但是仍有部分的縣市政府因為土地的權益利害關係人對於所劃分的這個功能分區有異議導致無法提送內政部來審議"},{"start":45.851,"end":49.232,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"}]}},{"id":"157300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375252df9e97be6099a5868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d91b0b1194c6a6941375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:45:20 - 10:46:58","影片長度":"00:01:38","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T10:45:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T10:46:58+08:00","duration":98,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5115937500000003,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.723468750000002,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.924093750000004,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.12534375,"end":53.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.09846875,"end":54.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.16159375,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.265968750000006,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.30284375000001,"end":98.56409375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.7,"end":4.681,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":23.932,"end":43.324,"text":"國土計畫的全面實施,地方的反彈聲浪卻是越來越大。首先,國土計畫法的相關執法尚未全述定案,土地未來的權益義務仍未明確,地方政府難以向民眾說明後續管理方式及既有的權利保障措施。"},{"start":44.244,"end":59.222,"text":"其次,國土保育地區畫設是依照中央公告的環境敏感圖資,但圖資年代老舊精確性尚存質疑,許多民眾陳情環境敏感地區的範圍跟實際的現況不符。"},{"start":62.526,"end":79.517,"text":"還有地方反映農業發展地區的畫色遺異以及農民權益保障等諸多問題。因此為了減少未來國土計畫執行所帶來的衝擊以及民怨本席提出國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案。延長國土功能"},{"start":80.197,"end":91.487,"text":"分區圖公告作業期程,也就是將國土功能分區圖公告作業再延期兩年,等到完整配套措施及中分溝通後再行上路。"}]}},{"id":"157299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752434808cb1f00e9e2868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d9100d8e0402cabe7a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:41:35 - 10:45:13","影片長度":"00:03:38","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T10:41:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T10:45:13+08:00","duration":218,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.82284375,"end":154.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.430343750000002,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.97721875000002,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.38659375,"end":210.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.64284375000003,"end":218.69721875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.655,"end":33.293,"text":"謝謝主席。各位委員還有各位官員,大家早。國土計畫法自105年5月1號施行以來,內政部跟地方政府依規定推動國土功能分區圖的繪製與審議工作。然而現行法律對直轄市公告的國土計畫法跟功能分區圖的期限設計,暴露了諸多的困難。"},{"start":34.233,"end":59.372,"text":"導致地方政府執行受阻民眾的財產權益也受影響信任度也因此降低迫切需要修法因應而在實際執行中各縣市雖然完成國土功能分區土草案的繪製並進行公開的展覽但受限於人力不足天災的影響地方首長更替的因素或因各地標準不一不少地方反彈劃分的標準此情況影響國土計畫"},{"start":62.954,"end":79.478,"text":"推進甚至損害地方發展跟民眾的生活引發大量的陳情導致政策推動的效率跟地方執行需求嚴重的失衡期限延長顯然是必須的解決方案國土功能分區的畫設尤為複雜特別是農業發展地區的規劃"},{"start":84.299,"end":101.744,"text":"各縣市雖依內政部與農業部定定的條件進行劃設但實際成果卻與現況農業使用不符導致部分農地因管制不當而損害農民的權益例如有農民會因莫名原因遭指控為農地農用引發廣泛的不滿"},{"start":104.065,"end":124.892,"text":"此外,各地對農地類型的劃分標準不一,加上農業部會能有效的協調問題更為複雜,地方政府需要更充裕的時間進行調整,確保規劃合理。同樣的,國土保育地區的畫社也爭議不斷,環境敏感圖資因年代走遠或精度不足與實際狀況不符。"},{"start":126.713,"end":135.861,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文"},{"start":155.077,"end":180.628,"text":"本席提議修正國土計畫法第四十五條條文勢在必行。我們建議將公告實施的期限由四年延長至六年,為地方政府提供更多的時間進行更周延的規劃與調整,同時也讓民眾有更多討論的空間。此舉不但能夠減少因期限壓力導致的規劃瑕疵,亦有助於降低爭議,提升民眾對政府的信任。"},{"start":181.508,"end":209.389,"text":"此次修法的提案只在兼顧國土永續的資源利用與地方執行的能力,更重要的是維護民眾合法的權益。我們相信延長期限將為地方政府爭取更充裕的規劃時間,讓國土計畫能夠更符合實際需求與公共利益,減少矛盾與抗爭,確保國土計畫法真正發揮作用,為台灣永續發展奠定穩固的基石。"},{"start":216.032,"end":217.015,"text":"文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"157298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637528db812e7dc40502f868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d9126bd567c34d508ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:38:08 - 10:41:27","影片長度":"00:03:19","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T10:38:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T10:41:27+08:00","duration":199,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.923468750000001,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.46659375,"end":157.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.42409375,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.63284375,"end":199.74659375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.95,"end":18.052,"text":"主席、各位委員、呃、劉部長還有各位媒體先進啊大家早安那其實像國土計畫法這樣牽動國家百年大計的大法勢必要有相當多的配套措施然而大家都知道相關的子法到目前尚未被期那這已經是說到都不知道該怎麼說了可以說是國土法就是給"},{"start":39.142,"end":54.008,"text":"不溝通不作為的行政機關所耽誤了。」所以我們很希望說既然內政部我們劉部長有意願想要趕快儘速推行的話那也要跟農業部來溝通啊必須要溝通因為農業部一再說針對全國農地有什麼堆疊式的補助措施但到目前為止一直說什麼9月要公告現在已經11月了還完全沒有消息"},{"start":66.052,"end":68.494,"text":"條文修正草案 關於2300萬人的權益,尤其是農業縣、農民的權益。這些農民一輩子辛苦做農,結果他的財產還受到政府的限制,這樣公平嗎?所以這些農民"},{"start":85.484,"end":89.225,"text":"甚至還要面對高度的罰還高達五百萬這不是把農民當作農奴一般嗎?如果假設農業沒有辦法賺錢到時候我們土有農地沒有農民我們還談什麼樣子的糧食安全所以今天本席在這裡提出就是說針對國土計畫法絕對不能夠先求有再求好"},{"start":113.55,"end":121.742,"text":"否則硬推改革恐比不改革的結果更糟。」那我也希望說以一個農業縣市的立場提幾項的提議啦,就是農業權應該納入國土計畫法,國土計畫法應該納入"},{"start":129.574,"end":135.016,"text":"農業發展權轉移制度。」甚至呢這一次我們所提出的展言就是希望用時間換取空間但是呢展言不是必要性保障農民的權益保障農民財產的權益才是最重要假設今天行政院內政部農業部可以提出一個馬上可以讓農民財產權益"},{"start":157.483,"end":159.304,"text":"受到保障的方案。」我覺得國土計畫法即時上路我們也沒有意見但是在那個之前在這個農業權尚未獲得充分保障農村地區整體規劃沒有入法農業堆疊式補助沒有出爐相關配套措施尚未完善"},{"start":180.057,"end":190.051,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"}]}},{"id":"157297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375238a4e1389e0a4d5b868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d91efbef1088df2b8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"10:35:43 - 10:38:02","影片長度":"00:02:19","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T10:35:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T10:38:02+08:00","duration":139,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.472843750000001,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.45284375000001,"end":64.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.67909375,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.62784375000001,"end":76.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.23409375,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.68534375,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.25534375000001,"end":109.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.66784375,"end":134.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.97159375,"end":139.23284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.526,"end":8.006,"text":"國土計畫法第四十條第一項原條文規定"},{"start":28.459,"end":47.73,"text":"提供民眾檢舉獎金。過去的這個立法的意旨是考量國內的土地使用違規案件層出不窮,但是因為直轄市各縣市的主管機關會與人力以及經費不足,無法對於土地違規使用的亂象進行有效的查處,所以該條文規定透過檢舉獎勵的方式提高社會大眾監督國土計畫土地使用的意願。"},{"start":54.514,"end":83.266,"text":"但是我們都知道交通違規的檢舉達人已經引起社會的嚴重亂象警政署現在已經針對交通違規的案件取消了檢舉獎金但是在國土計畫法上面我們並沒有做這樣的修正所以未來在國土計畫法上路之後如果還有檢舉獎金制度的話我想這個也會造成社會非常嚴重的這個衝擊檢舉獎金的法條是在2015年訂定的那我想本席就"},{"start":83.866,"end":85.066,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":99.611,"end":106.294,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":128.622,"end":133.927,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土"}]}},{"id":"157303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375222338a8f5aae1f74868a4ad55ac2447b40b19c4a6d232d9179e30822738802ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:50:09 - 10:52:20","影片長度":"00:02:11","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T10:50:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T10:52:20+08:00","duration":131,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.8615937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.04221875,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.286593750000002,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.660968750000002,"end":28.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.089718750000003,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.52221875000001,"end":123.99471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":4.07,"text":"條文修正草案案。」案。我們就請我們的昭緯,我們學信委員做提案說明。好,謝謝主席。有鑒於我們國土計畫將於明年114年5月正式啟動。那很多相關的效應以及紛擾呢,我們在越接近的時候就越來越顯現。那國土"},{"start":29.579,"end":49.328,"text":"計畫法是一部為了國家長遠發展的一個很好而且很重要的法令當初本席也有參與提案在第八屆的時候可是八年過去了現在我們的政府才在繳交這個期末作業我們發現從國土計畫法105年1月6日總統公佈國土計畫法立法以來"},{"start":55.09,"end":77.508,"text":"中央機關的整個推動情況對於各界、各縣市政府以及人民的很多的意見沒有辦法如實的來整理以及民眾有很多甚至到現在還不知道或才剛知道所以針對國土計畫法這麼重要的一個法令"},{"start":78.268,"end":104.149,"text":"在要實施了可是似乎沒有落實到地方那在這個要執行前有一些相關的意見還有一些相關的資訊還有未來的執行方案我們希望中央主管機關都應該系統性的來跟地方政府跟相關的學界公民團體以及利害關係人等等再與溝通而且充分的聽取意見"},{"start":105.39,"end":122.95,"text":"所以為了使未來國土計畫執行減少衝擊以及民怨所以本席提出國土計畫第四十五條條文的修正草案將國土功能分區圖公告作業期程由四年延長至六年。謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16295","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db24e6619f7e9d11f8ea093030673645f9b104c5adbfed68f74b93b0f7b033c2245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院歲入預算第5款第1項第2目暨國家發展委員會及所屬單位預算部分。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-21T08:31:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T12:07:00+08:00","duration":12954,"影片長度":"03:35:54","委員發言時間":"08:31:06 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1屆第2會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議．事錄時間113年11月20日星期三9時至13時24分,地點紅毛101會議室出席委員陳廷輝委員等14人,列席委員林德福委員等22人,列席人員經濟副部長郭志輝及相關人員及組織總署代表"},{"start":1775.078,"end":1799.609,"text":"主席秋昭及文志偉報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管臺灣電力股份有限公司臺灣自來水股份有限公司經濟部部長郭志輝臺電公司董事長曾文森總經理王耀廷臺灣自來水公司董事長李嘉榮"},{"start":1800.889,"end":1822.626,"text":"總經理李丁來報告後委員陳廷飛等21人提出質詢均由經濟部郭部長及相關人員及其答覆登記法院委員處不在場者外其餘均與法院完畢、詢答結束委員林德甫所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位一週內與書面答覆並赴資本會決議、詢答結束令定期繼續審查。散會宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1830.7,"end":1833.584,"text":"謝謝。這場沒有委員,依次律正不處理。繼續進行討論事項,請一併宣讀。"},{"start":1836.169,"end":1837.169,"text":"基金及促進轉型正義基金今日詢答宣讀完畢"},{"start":1868.271,"end":1880.308,"text":"在請國會留主委報告之前我趕快介紹今天出席的國會相關同仁包括留基金主任委員之外還有"},{"start":1882.07,"end":1909.562,"text":"章朝仁主任秘書、仲規處、經濟發展處、社會處、產業處、人力處、國土區域離島發展處、管制考核處、法治處各處處長、中心信訊文化專案辦公室主任、檔案管理局林局長、跟檔案管理局所屬相關科室。行政院國家發展基金委員會王子密"},{"start":1910.595,"end":1918.144,"text":"主席總署、公務員署相關同仁。好,現在請國安會劉晉欽主任委員做一併報告。"},{"start":1930.66,"end":1942.639,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早今天很榮幸有機會受邀來經濟委員會對於我們114年的施政計畫以及收支預算進行報告"},{"start":1946.094,"end":1966.61,"text":"我們大概會分三個重點來談,主要是談施政的方向、預算編列及計劃的執行情形。我們114年施政重點主要有四個主軸,第一個主軸是創新思維,扮演全球經濟關鍵角色,主要是推動新代物產業,加速產業創新轉型。"},{"start":1968.431,"end":1993.017,"text":"均衡產業發展、兆元投資國家發展、千億投資打造創新創業深化國際連結與合作另外我們在投資人才、新世代國際競爭力主軸是強化國家未來人才競爭力以及全球攬財另外對於區域合作發展、促進區域永續均衡發展部分我們主要是強化區域治理制度、促進花東離島永續發展"},{"start":1995.597,"end":2009.748,"text":"構築地方雙三郎帶、活絡中央新村發展以及不遺落任何人的近鄰公正轉型另外對於開放政府全方位提升施政透明度我們主要是以提升新階段的開放"},{"start":2010.749,"end":2024.157,"text":"政府國家行動方案建構友善的、便利的法律鬆綁環境推動計畫全生命週期的智慧管理以及打造科技賦能的國家檔案館預計在明年年底會開幕"},{"start":2028.58,"end":2035.768,"text":"整體預算大概執行情概要說明如下第一國安費在114年度稅入778.3萬稅出36億3616.2萬另外在國家檔案局稅入171萬稅出10億9263.6萬合計"},{"start":2051.003,"end":2053.305,"text":"稅率949.3萬及47億2579.8萬稅數增加8億1544.1萬,主要是因為前瞻預算"},{"start":2069.056,"end":2086.922,"text":"及將結到期未完成的工作必須急轉移轉到公務預算來執行那主要是在地方創生以及亞洲矽谷等計劃另外配合進行這個中印青春的這個宿舍的優化經費的為主所以主要這裡增加了8億"},{"start":2090.624,"end":2100.29,"text":"154.1萬那下一頁那整個預算裡面我們的組成最主要的是四大部分第一個部分是一般行政29.24%這個另外是促進產業發展23.76%再來是中興新村的這個"},{"start":2108.294,"end":2112.376,"text":"維運19.88%建全國土規劃經營13.19%主要是這四個是最主要的部分詳細說明如下一般行政7億9920萬人事、行政推動國家發展綜合計劃3040萬"},{"start":2129.326,"end":2135.908,"text":"五萬九千元主要以淨零工程轉型以及整體綜合規劃為主。再來是研議經濟政策、協調推動財經措施編列預算5197萬9千元主要是在於國家永續發展以及在經濟形勢的規劃"},{"start":2151.914,"end":2166.602,"text":"改善下一頁那另外我們在促進社會發展部分以及計劃審議的部分我們編列了5080萬1000元那主要是在針對社會發展以及這個近年工程轉型以及這個社區治理為主"},{"start":2167.362,"end":2170.747,"text":"另外在促進產業發展是編列6億4939萬主要是在推動產業的發展與佈局以及我們希望能夠推動均衡產業的發展以及創新創業以及國際"},{"start":2184.152,"end":2203.452,"text":"篡年的部分另外在促進人力資源發展的部分則是9181萬3千元主要還是在人口的這個政策上面包括這個競爭力的提升包括這個攬財的部分那下一頁是談到國土規劃的部分跟經營管理當然是3億6059萬元"},{"start":2206.395,"end":2230.202,"text":"這個部分主要是在於國土區域跟離島建設的發展最重要的大部分的預算是用於這個地方創生以及永續另外在績效管理的部分是屬於整個國家施政體系的管理我們這邊是編列預算3750萬4000元主要是在最終協調管理的數位化跟執行的部分"},{"start":2230.922,"end":2253.749,"text":"那尤其是在跨區域跟地方政府的管理這個發展的計畫我們會有一些新的規劃出來那另外在健全資訊管理提升應用效率的部分是一億零八百零九萬那主要是在推動辦公自動化以及這個發展這個管理國發資訊系統以及法規透明及公民參與計畫還有資訊傳輸韌性計畫這兩後面兩個計畫是主要的資金用途在下一頁"},{"start":2260.131,"end":2264.093,"text":"法規鬆綁及強化經貿管理部分編列706萬,主要參與國際法規調試及法規鬆綁推動。中興新村北中核心維運5億4,335萬,主要在於公有資產活化及文資財產設備管理及中興新村育成。"},{"start":2287.145,"end":2288.106,"text":"離島建設基金是9億,依據離島建設條例第15條,我們編列預算支援離島基金。"},{"start":2296.855,"end":2314.861,"text":"另外國家檔案局編列10億9263萬主要59.23%是在國家記憶就是檔案的深化管理上面21.5%是在行政管理另外在檔案管理應用是10%以及文書的部分是9.2%這個是在國家檔案局所以以上為本會所屬"},{"start":2324.898,"end":2340.818,"text":"本會及其所屬國家檔案管理局預算,主要是配合整體施政目標。我們也詳實編列,希望得到各位委員的支持。在此也特別感謝。接下來對於基金的部分進行報告。"},{"start":2344.893,"end":2370.758,"text":"本會所管理的基金最重要的第一個是行政院國家發展基金那這個基金的來源主要是國庫撥補那歷年到現在撥補了309億那用途主要是要改善產業結構然後這個同時促進產業的轉型與發展那另外是支持中央目的事業主管機關相關的合作以及計畫的推動"},{"start":2372.318,"end":2400.015,"text":"那也同時呢也是執行行政院專案核定的這個專案那下一頁那整個整個這樣的部分呢我們進行了一些投資融資的計劃在投資計劃裡面我們累積的直接投資就是從以前到現在累積下來我們的投資是796億那在創投的部分累積投資247億在創業天使的部分是累積了31億"},{"start":2401.836,"end":2409.162,"text":"在融資計畫上與銀行共同融資,委由銀行來做封控管理,累積合帶1兆819億元。另外在專案投資計畫部分,結合經濟部、文化部的部分,投資92億元。"},{"start":2421.792,"end":2438.079,"text":"補助計畫部分提供國家重點領域學院運作資金,目前補助超過27億元,這是開發基金目前主要政策與辦理情形。"},{"start":2439.94,"end":2460.565,"text":"整個在114年度我們希望在投資業務、融資業務跟補助業務都有一些計畫這個計畫主要是在兩大塊在投資業務部分我們希望著重於五大信賴產業那另外我們推動新興投資計畫我們希望創造國家的投資量能我們會在校園創投基金進行開始"},{"start":2462.611,"end":2484.739,"text":"透過校園的合作增加投資量能跟被投資標的產生。我們另外會產業再造基金我們希望透過基金的方式去輔導產業的轉型與再造另外我們也成立了智慧醫療創新創業的計劃基金同時也成立了AI的投資基金再來是綠色成長的基金預計在這幾個領域上"},{"start":2486.22,"end":2488.221,"text":"融資部分配合臺商回臺、跟流臺灣計畫、機器設備輸出、海外投資融資、機器設備升級、持續發展這部分業務在今年成長比例比較高,編列預算成長也比較高"},{"start":2504.105,"end":2522.334,"text":"另外在補助的部分就是屬於教育部的國家重點領域的學院以及教育部促進國際生來臺及留臺的新型專班那這兩個是我們在補助業務上面的主酬那這個部分基於這樣的部分我們預計這個業務收入是304億"},{"start":2527.098,"end":2530.642,"text":"6,728萬元另外支出的部分我們預計支出是58億7,928萬預計本期應該會有剩餘245億8,799萬"},{"start":2541.713,"end":2545.955,"text":"離島基金對於離島建設補助、貸款、投資項目及支援離島各項策略計劃及建設計劃支出。從90年到99年間由國庫撥補300億,從112年逐年編列預算撥補,今年以9億做編列撥補,目前計劃都在實施進行中。"},{"start":2571.388,"end":2592.372,"text":"那我們在111年的12月合訂了這個各縣市六期方案108項計畫總共是補助了25.16億元在113年的9至10月那就是在今年的9到10月我們在各縣市又合訂了27項計畫總共補助了3.69億元所以合計已經合訂了135項離島計畫補助了28.85億"},{"start":2600.669,"end":2627.89,"text":"我們在下一頁這個是那離島計的這個整個計畫第6期從112年到115年整個114年預計的重點執行項目主要還是在第一個是確保基本民生跟民行也就是說在島際之間的海運交通維修交通船還有醫療能力緊急救難還有平穩物價等等消防這些地方作為我們的補助的方向"},{"start":2628.47,"end":2642.717,"text":"另外在四大永續目標維護島嶼的環境打造熱活創新家園以及推動智慧創新轉型樹立低碳能源典型這四個方向也是我們在離島建設裡面主要的發展的目標"},{"start":2645.39,"end":2668.91,"text":"在114年離島建設基金的編列群形是基金來源是9億146萬9千元公庫撥補的是9億基金的用途是9億359萬9千元主要是在離島的各項用途包括永續的發展包括貸款的部分期末基金的餘額是8億2654萬8千元下一頁"},{"start":2673.534,"end":2690.627,"text":"接下來是花東地區的永續發展基金我們是從101年至110年由國庫補足了400億作為我們基金的用途主要還是在於在花東的建設跟發展那是依據花東地區的建設計畫與支持與撥補下一頁"},{"start":2700.107,"end":2714.46,"text":"第三期的部分我們在109年到114年實施的結果就是第一個是推動了智慧教育鼓勵多元學習我們建置了這個智慧教育中心5G的示範教室也建置了智慧教育圖書系統以及未來的這個"},{"start":2716.401,"end":2732.994,"text":"教室跟學習2萬人次以上也補助了在地潛力的運動選手講學金共136人我們也營造了永續城鄉落實淨林永續的部分補助了低碳運具加強了環境的改善以及宣傳"},{"start":2734.435,"end":2763.755,"text":"另外扶植的地方產業的升級我們也設立了很多的發展中心以及推動地方特色產業的發展在原住民生活永續經營的部分我們新建了17座部落聚會相關設施3座塞浦站轉型文件站還有就是在iTrip的i部落的部分我們協助了Wi-Fi的建立也推動了長者的照護跟運動等等活動在下一頁"},{"start":2764.715,"end":2768.038,"text":"花東地區永續發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、"},{"start":2795.075,"end":2821.666,"text":"應變的能量尤其在0403地震之後我們對於交通補助跟對於觀光補助還有對於緊急貸款的部分我們都有相當的支援另外這是在強化醫療照護的部分這幾個地方都是我們做了不少的事情在傳承原住民的文化落實近鄰生活營造在地觀光持續協助花東在建設上面下一頁"},{"start":2822.606,"end":2829.914,"text":"在花東永續資金的來源部分基金來源今年有600萬基金用途用了28億8144萬4千元期末基金還有162億2897萬6千元下一頁"},{"start":2838.562,"end":2861.04,"text":"最後是談到出行轉型基金主要是來自於不當單場的移轉加上政府預算的撥補還有一些捐贈用途主要是在協助轉型正義相關的一些工作以及支持弱勢、輔助弱勢的部分長期照顧以這兩個為主主要是由各縣市"},{"start":2862.042,"end":2867.689,"text":"或機構透過縣市提出相關計劃,再由基金核准補助。"},{"start":2870.869,"end":2889.764,"text":"一百一十三年的部分我們合準了一億四千九百七十三萬三千元主要是協助內政部、教育部、法務部、衛福部、文化部、原住民委員會以及國家發展委員會的檔案施政收集運用用在這幾個部會上"},{"start":2893.226,"end":2915.92,"text":"下一頁那在114年正義基金的部分出去展示正義基金的部分執行內政部這邊有一個威權象徵的處置然後教育部有一個轉型正義教育的事項那法務部有一個平復國家不法案件衛生福利部有受難者家庭照護那文化部有不義遺址保存與火化"},{"start":2916.46,"end":2937.578,"text":"無話不還有另外一個專案是政治檔案研究原住民委員會有針對原住民的轉型正義國家發展會持續在檔案的修正跟整理上面主要是在這8個主要的工作項目為主其中關聯的部會有7個下一頁"},{"start":2938.559,"end":2964.735,"text":"所以基金的來源今年是114年預計是7038萬元那用途是1億5367萬5千元那期末還會有基金餘額是13億1355萬7千元這個大概是整個基金的運作狀況在下一頁所以以上四個基金的說明那國發基金還是會持續這個產業的結構的調整跟改善"},{"start":2967.256,"end":2990.67,"text":"那當然很多委員有意見就是希望我們以財務投資為主,著重於財務的效益那這一點當然我們也會認真的去思考但是目前來講,國發基金還是以協助國家產業結構轉型為主協助創新為主,然後國家政策推動為主那也因此呢,目前我們的結構方向還是沒有改變"},{"start":2991.79,"end":3014.097,"text":"另外在於離島花東的部分我們會持續協助離島花東當地居民的生活跟品質我們也會強化均衡台灣的發展至於對於本會促進正義轉移基金我們也會協助各部會持續推動促進轉型正義的工作以上為我們國家基金的四大基金的報告謝謝各位委員的支持"},{"start":3019.662,"end":3046.324,"text":"好,謝謝主委的報告,主委請回座希望今天的會議能夠進行順利也希望這個臺灣隊在東京階段今天可以贏好,這個現在進行詢答委員詢答之前,主席原力做一點先幾點宣告因為委員發言時期,本會委員6分鐘必要時延長"},{"start":3048.192,"end":3069.946,"text":"兩分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點整截止發言登記那為了讓會議能夠順利進行以及讓每位委員發言時間能夠兼顧公平性以及不會影響下一位委員質詢的權益在每位委員質詢結束之後本席會立即請質詢委員停止質詢請各位委員能夠配合感謝"},{"start":3072.73,"end":3101.273,"text":"呃...不好意思,我們先確定一下...又不見了?那待會再確定一下意思如何好,現在第一位質詢,請林大化委員各位可以考量一下,把6加2改為6加4啊看...你要找人跟我講,已經宣告了我已經宣告了好,那我就是會意詢答嘛那就下一次啦,因為我已經宣告了好,那沒關係,尊重主席"},{"start":3109.307,"end":3125.402,"text":"主委,今天是棒球十二強,台灣隊委內拉,而且是台灣隊第一場召集詢問賽,這二、三十年來台灣最好的一次表現,我們來幫台灣加油一下吧。我數到3,我們說台灣加油。"},{"start":3126.843,"end":3128.965,"text":"我昨天有找人士開了一個小會我們會進行相關的查核"},{"start":3154.451,"end":3183.86,"text":"好所以你也是啟動了這樣的一個這個查辦的一個程序了嘛好那本席呢針對無人機呢加速去紅供應鏈打造健全產業的生態系要跟您做個討論臺灣無人機呢國際上限商機二部戰爭之後無人機在不對稱的作戰能力之下顯現的面臨區域政治的威脅只要經過整合民間無人機的產業鏈就可以去支援國家的應"},{"start":3185.241,"end":3201.695,"text":"對,國際上也因為美中對立其實在整個產業的任何一個產業的供應鏈市場區隔需求就很明顯的去紅化與非中二就這兩個的產業供應鏈的市場需求就出來了那臺灣無人機的商機在這個在上個禮拜11月17號我們林江榮部長他率無人機產業訪歐"},{"start":3210.983,"end":3221.367,"text":"到目前為止反應也非常的好所以我們期待台灣成為無人機全球無人機的民主供應鏈的核心這就是國家對所以在9月24號的時候美國26家的無人機製造跟反無人機的廠商全部都來台灣了"},{"start":3229.73,"end":3245.395,"text":"所以也邀請臺山臺灣來加入供應鏈顯示國際無人機產業是需要臺灣加入的但是有這樣的市場成長我們國內是應用不足的全球無人機的市場規模是339億美元預計在2030年7年後"},{"start":3250.296,"end":3274.11,"text":"可以達到558億美元蔡前總統的5加2產業計畫或者是賴總統五大新產業無人機都是關鍵產業無人機可應用的領域非常多元各部會也必須增加無人機應用才能扶植重點產業下面都是國外已經在執行的消防、物流、離岸風機的巡檢"},{"start":3276.792,"end":3288.365,"text":"災水果、高壓電塔的巡檢這都是在無人機在國外當中已有很成熟的運用那另外我也在我們今年這個前瞻台灣無人機的產業研討會在嘉義這邊當中有一個簡報內容爬梳了整個各部會"},{"start":3296.574,"end":3305.225,"text":"國防海委包括整個各部會有談到要補助無人機的部分的業務總共423億重點你看國防部就佔了350億海委會63億內政部2億農委會"},{"start":3313.576,"end":3331.443,"text":"各國課位各1億然後之後教育部就是都是幾千萬所以除了這幾個部會國防海洋內政農業及科學相關的部會外多數的部會對無人機的運用心態上也相對保守了所以在做您在做整個政策規劃的時候這也要讓您知道各部會的狀態"},{"start":3332.563,"end":3355.912,"text":"好那我們的困境在哪裡?臺灣無人機產業規模務必國際佈局臺灣的市場太小但是呢我們國家對的困境有哪些?有三個第一個硬體技術需擺脫中國第二個系統整合的人才培訓不足第三個國內無人機的企業規模是中小微好硬體技術需擺脫中國我必須承認中國在馬達、通訊、電池等關鍵零組件還是市場大宗"},{"start":3361.034,"end":3384.435,"text":"中國透過無人機的裝置物聯網感測器竊取機敏資訊資安當然就出現破口形成產業跟國安的漏洞後果就不堪設想這是第一個我們要面對的第二個系統整合的人才航太相關科技畢業人才現在都希望加入產業規模大的半導體不願去做無人機尤其無人機最缺乏的是軟"},{"start":3385.797,"end":3401.314,"text":"應整合的人才需要懂得程式語言要理解機械構建跟電動零組件那這個是目前第3個就是無人機企業規模都中小微企業需要政府政策性的支持才能健全國家對的規模"},{"start":3403.476,"end":3429.247,"text":"好那無人機國產化的基地最好全台灣最好的就是在高雄他的合理性跟他的這個必要性本席在這邊也讓主委因為需要您政策的支持高雄發展無人機的合理性有7項第一個我們研發無人機在金屬中心第二個爭取這個漢翔在近日也公佈了無人機製造機要發展無人機製造製造了"},{"start":3430.347,"end":3455.537,"text":"所以我也會請我這個最大的能力來爭取漢翔的無人機製造就在岡山整個金屬構建的重鎮提供高價、高質化的無人機所需的零組件就在我北高雄第三、航太產業園區在仁武無人機業者所需的北高雄所有的金屬構建塑膠設處、葉片製造都在岡山周遭的北高雄航太聚落第四個,正在規劃中的循環材料高質化的專區"},{"start":3459.599,"end":3487.73,"text":"他可以重點提供無人機的需要的複合材料這個是重點我們現在的複合機都是因為我們都是用塑膠類比較居多這裡很清楚所以在怎麼提升大幅躍升的提升在複合材料這個我們高雄就是有這個優勢第5個高雄軟體也就提供無人機需要的飛行控制跟地面控制的軟體開發能量第6個高階人才養成除了我們原來的中山大學陽明交通大學"},{"start":3488.65,"end":3511.47,"text":"清華大學都在左營成立分校這都是要感謝我們陳其邁市長第7個實踐大學高雄校區這邊就已經設置了無人機塑殼考照的場地好它的必要性高雄發展無人機產業無人機除了軍事用途民間商用的最佳測試地點就在高雄因為高雄可以提供貨櫃港口"},{"start":3512.691,"end":3531.451,"text":"三區道路、電廠設施、橋樑水利等不同的情境供無人機進行巡檢、搜查等的事半驗證而且在亞灣、京亞灣區的這些公司驗證的5G這個技術也可以提升無人機在通訊上的安全從高雄發展"},{"start":3532.452,"end":3557.017,"text":"商業無人機驗證將有助於成果推展到全世界無論在人才、技術、硬體、軟體等無人機產業所需的支援高雄均有完美的供應獨插中央政府的支持跟產業聚落的規劃好那在這邊我高雄市是可以發展無人機國產化無人機國產化我們是國際佈局"},{"start":3559.738,"end":3582.907,"text":"的產業生態系的最佳基地,擁有人才養成軟體園區、考照場地、航帶產業、複合材料和構建產業的聚合都需要國發會策略性整合的支持發展無人機產業需要廣大的腹地,看看我右邊右下角這張圖北高雄的發展跟南高雄的發展我們這個產業無人機的有需要腹地"},{"start":3583.627,"end":3596.816,"text":"人武航太產業園區、北高雄的產業園區皆可作為無人機的研發、演示、測試與競賽這都比嘉義考太多太多太多在嘉義只是做人機的訓練好"},{"start":3599.017,"end":3617.939,"text":"那最後本席希望您在一個月提出這樣的規劃就是本席有具體的建議事項第一個高雄具備軟體開發航太傳統產業聚落等先天條件漸進於高雄以產業聚落概念進行規劃並評估主題式的輔導策略主委您就回答我這一題就好了"},{"start":3619.226,"end":3643.855,"text":"好的 這個我會在一個月內提出規劃報告好 謝謝您支不支持剛才本席剛才講的是的 是的你對全國的產業聚落應該相對瞭解無燃機最好的產業的聚落就在高雄我們會找經濟部跟速發部我們一起來討論好 好 謝謝好 謝謝林大華委員來 主委請回座好 下位執行請邱益穎委員"},{"start":3653.939,"end":3680.625,"text":"謝謝主席我請一下國發會主委我想今天除了要討論這個國發會的預算以外有幾個跟整個台灣發展的議題想要請教您現在大家都在關注這個川普當選之後對台灣各方面可能產生的影響"},{"start":3681.485,"end":3702.897,"text":"川普即將在明年的1月上任那這個川普先生在競選的時候他的政見大概就是非常的強調以美國利益為優先的這樣的一個核心價值所以他已經也對外說明說他的對外經貿方面他將要將這個所有的進口商品加10%到20%的關稅"},{"start":3706.139,"end":3731.371,"text":"甚至提高中國商品進口關稅達到百分之六十這個應該就是未來我們在看到的過去的美中貿易戰應該又會再次升溫所以我不曉得在國發會怎麼樣看川普總統的新的經貿態度那他的這樣一個政策未來落實的可行性你們現在有沒有"},{"start":3732.071,"end":3734.337,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算"},{"start":3742.168,"end":3769.998,"text":"來 主委謝謝委員其實我們這次在APEC大家討論的私下討論的比較多也是這個議題因為整個川普目前檯面上看到的是稅那檯面下的部分大家也在你講到APEC的私下討論是跟幾個國家的跟幾個國家的部長那我先講一下我們在上一次的2017年16年那個時候其實川普提升關稅之後帶動了很多的台商移出中國"},{"start":3770.658,"end":3774.12,"text":"臺灣市內波我們大概進來了2.3兆的投資那我們認為這一波當然有利有弊那我還是看我的看法沒有變就是利大於弊那你認為這一波的川普的這樣的川普總統這樣的一個新的政策對臺灣的整體是利大於弊的因為我們獲得的商機會更多因為中國有60%幾乎都在移動中"},{"start":3795.949,"end":3818.995,"text":"移動中當然這次我們在秘魯來講秘魯有一個港但是川普就講了那個港也算中國出口所以就變成是很明顯他的圍堵的政策是非常強烈的那對我們反而是一些有很大的反彈機會如果您認為在這樣的一個經貿變動當中對台灣是利大於弊台灣如何抓住這樣的一個利多的機會"},{"start":3819.935,"end":3846.447,"text":"政府有沒有什麼其他的作為、積極的作為來協助這一些企業升級或者是協助企業能夠抓住這樣的一個轉單效應的這樣的一個利基這個是我們在整個吸引台資回流的部分我們會找經濟部我們會跟經濟部會有個會議在看怎麼樣加強力道吸引回流第二個是協助台商移轉到海外的部分我們也會比較強化去支持這個動作"},{"start":3847.627,"end":3875.394,"text":"這個東西開始做了嗎?協助台商移轉因為其實我覺得商人喔台商應該是秀到這個風味的敏感度應該是會遠高過於政府啦所以他們應該也會開始在做一些規劃那我想政府在做後勤支援在做後面的back up的這個角色扮演上面我不曉得國發會在這個地方扮演的角色跟力道會到什麼樣的程度?"},{"start":3875.934,"end":3898.585,"text":"我們會持續強化我們在台商回流的這個資金吸引的力道以外原有的計畫以外我們其實也跟一些海外的國家我們有在商討一些合作的方案因為我們台灣現在人力密集的部分我們是比較建議他們往到一些我們友邦去所以我們有在談一些合作方案"},{"start":3899.465,"end":3926.587,"text":"主委那這個跟你那天談到的比如說你們現在國發基金的4個大的百億投資方案裡頭包括文化創意、智慧健康、AI新創、綠色成長那我記得您在6月的時候也提到了所謂的傳產再造基金也希望把它納入也希望在年底的時候成立那這個可能跟未來我們整體的這一些產業的發展其實是息息相關"},{"start":3927.427,"end":3945.983,"text":"您講說年底要成立,我不知道你們現在的進度到哪裡?因為你們現在新公布的這個所謂的四大百億投資方案並沒有包括這個傳產再造基金對,傳產再造基金因為他們民間也要募資,他們要募資18億現在已經募資完成,那已經遞件申請了,那我們會排審核"},{"start":3950.081,"end":3968.347,"text":"這個你只是審核而已嗎?你有沒有再去政府能夠再多加一點力道對於我們的這些傳產甚至整個基金的運用跟對於產業的輔助能夠再多加一點力道還是說你們只是做一些paperwork的審核工作而已?我們基本上我們會參與這個基金的投資因為他們這個由基金來做這個協助產業的轉型"},{"start":3975.669,"end":3996.774,"text":"因為他變成會投資進去然後那民間壓的比我們還多嘛所以這個會會有蠻大的效果尤其是都是比較知名的人士那另外的部分我們也在強化一些稅賦的優惠我們現在正在談所以我們應該會著手進行企業企業併購法開始會做修法會做一些時事上的鼓勵"},{"start":3997.837,"end":4023.863,"text":"這個部分是要明年才開始做嗎?你所謂的企業併購法的修法這個是有行政院來提案?我們已經開始做嗎?這個已經跟財政部協調過了在行政院協調過一次那本來是從產算條例裡面改那我們現在是回來改企業併購法所以我們會在最近就會已經會已經開完了我們最近開始會著手進行那另外一個部分這個4大百億主要是主要是要為了刺激國內未來的產業需求"},{"start":4026.913,"end":4047.888,"text":"主委您剛剛講到的這些部分其實是跟國家整體的經濟發展包括我們的產業未來的走向跟整個國際的經貿局勢其實是息息相關但是我想要更進一步請教您您剛剛講的這些策略是在國發會的內部裡頭去討論出來的還是在你們所謂的行政院經濟發展委員會去討論出來的"},{"start":4054.292,"end":4070.898,"text":"我為什麼會跟您討論這個議題因為我知道現在行政院又多下設了一個所謂的行政院經濟發展委員會他的主任委員當然是院長那國發會現在也就變成了一個幕僚單位可是國發會在整個國家的發展的這個"},{"start":4072.378,"end":4073.799,"text":"建設基金、花東地區永續發展建設基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":4094.998,"end":4111.036,"text":"你如果是院長當主任委員當然看起來是院長比較大嘛這個院長的主導性會比較強嘛那是不是變相的也會弱化了在國發會的這個功能上面是不是相對的就會被弱化了那未來的國發會是不是就會被這個所謂的經發會來取代"},{"start":4115.621,"end":4129.194,"text":"經費相對是強化國安會的功能那裡面大部分的工作其實還是來自國安會的規劃那另外是透過顧問給我們一些建議然後我們在院會來通過的話執行的力道會比以往更強"},{"start":4130.543,"end":4130.643,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":4146.635,"end":4169.371,"text":"幾乎是一模一樣那你們幾個政委當然也都是共同在參與這樣的一個整個國家發展整個國家經濟發展的事務所以我對於整個經發會我是沒有意見但是我認為如果他是跌床架屋又多成立了一個委員會那其實實際工作還是跟國發會在做的現況是一模一樣的話那會不會有一點"},{"start":4171.018,"end":4171.579,"text":"請問各位同仁上次會議是否有錯誤?"},{"start":4201.034,"end":4204.402,"text":"沒有錯誤依次度確定主委先回座謝謝"},{"start":4230.109,"end":4241.061,"text":"氣象方會公布氣象變遷的績效指標六十四個國家跟地區"},{"start":4253.594,"end":4281.119,"text":"臺灣排名第60比去年有進步一名啦,也不要在調查位更嚴重的淨零碳排這一塊都在後段班我真不認輸的嗎臺灣這麼進步啊淨零碳排花那麼久啊越含越做越退步國際上已經聯繫好幾年都打我們的嘴巴了來我更今天要更直接跟你跟你討論我去看你的預算書啊淨零公正轉型的預算因為你編了要用人民納稅錢"},{"start":4283.223,"end":4306.319,"text":"一億一百九十八萬結果現在怎麼樣?連那個目標都訂不出來了嗎?你那個112年跟113年都有啊,為什麼在114年?為什麼?我現在看不到你的目標值你現在是怎樣?連目標都訂不出來了我們明年是編一千六百萬"},{"start":4308.526,"end":4328.199,"text":"淨零減碳公正轉型的預算對我們是1600萬您看這個表的下面也是寫1620萬你如果寫的是1620萬全部加起來不是一億九百一百九十八萬公正你這樣說我砍成一千多萬你講的是"},{"start":4332.247,"end":4353.052,"text":"那個是永續匯的部分啦永續匯不用從一億多砍成一千多啦我比較嚴重了沒有沒有 主委更嚴重了更嚴重了你看你要用人民納稅錢一億結果你連一個目標值都沒有累你現在知道淨零碳排做不好的事連目標都不敢定了你看看右邊這個圖"},{"start":4354.537,"end":4379.822,"text":"你110年跟111年跟今年你都還會想說你要出幾本書有一個具體的這個指標到今年114年除了什麼辦理實質的公眾知情、實場勢啊不要都空的你如果是個立法委員立法院第一個人民的願意給你這個錢嗎立法院能夠把這個把這個一億多給你嗎給給你倒退入喔你以前都有的指標基本連目標都沒有設"},{"start":4381.121,"end":4384.243,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":4409.681,"end":4419.695,"text":"委員這你這份資料我們來查證一下啦,我們查證一下再跟你,不過螺絲釘吊滿地了,好不好,酸緊一點,不會吊滿地啦,我釘的夠緊,你連目標值都沒有,阿你不知道要去什麼省?"},{"start":4424.298,"end":4452.908,"text":"你要這1億多你去年跟前年都有很明確目標值我們每一項都有目標值來來來 你看一看你回答之前你看一下1、1、2年你的目標值實際做了什麼事情1、1、3年的目標值是什麼做了什麼事情這都很明確的啊結果你1、1、4你要拿1億多你整個都空下來你的你的頭腦給你搖頭了對不對第一個一個禮拜內要補期第二個更嚴重的我定"},{"start":4454.25,"end":4480.198,"text":"欸主委,不是只有空白這個問題啦你連目標都沒有,你怎麼會要預算呢?你自己不知道要做什麼,什麼聽頭,你怎麼會要預算?你有更嚴重的,過去幾年就是實行的成效又不好嘛這樣怎麼對得起民眾呢?好,一個禮拜內把那個目標值很明確定出來好不好?你他怎麼會信嘛?你今天就是為了預算來的,結果你要空白那這個不叫螺絲釘掉滿地,什麼叫螺絲釘掉滿地?"},{"start":4482.202,"end":4499.811,"text":"主委,以前的國發會有,為什麼現在沒有?一個禮拜內把目標值很明確給本席好不好?明明有,我們有目標值阿,我想這應該是有,我不知道這份資料是我們哪裡出錯阿,我們更正阿因為這個目標值我都看過"},{"start":4504.854,"end":4531.067,"text":"今天更嚴重是過去的執行績效不好來這幾天你看這幾天台灣的空氣變成怎樣你外面在減碳減少空汙台灣這幾天減碳是不成空汙是暴增的我們看下一張圖你看這幾天台北天空一片灰台中連醫生都出來講說在上演那個沉默之秋"},{"start":4532.659,"end":4558.924,"text":"左邊這個是14號的這個空氣你看紅通通一片,到了15號整個更是紅通通的你減碳不好,結果空污又這麼嚴重這對不起人民嗎?人民的健康會受到很大傷害,注意你是定這個目標的人你要去達成這個好不好?我給你看一個很恐怖的這個圖,你看一下我們現在空氣壞到什麼程度?"},{"start":4560.882,"end":4584.961,"text":"我們要減煤對不對減少燒煤這是國家政策嘛國化會議定了對不對注意對不對結果你看我們的14號跟15號我們台電的10部10部燃煤的機組全部火力全開你看最上面的是林口的2號機第二個是大嶺的2號機下面有臺中最可憐的臺中有6個燒煤的機組在14號跟15號火力全開"},{"start":4589.778,"end":4616.733,"text":"前幾天已經你看那個七四土常常都已經火力全開後來可以降下來一點點稍微喘一下人民呼吸可以稍微喘息一下下14號、15號全部都是在最高峰欸你看火力全開欸特別是台中的跟台中附近的這個居民是多麼可憐6個燒煤的機組全部火力全開我們看下一張不是只有燃煤沒有做到燒重油是不是更嚴重對不對"},{"start":4618.208,"end":4624.291,"text":"基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":4642.383,"end":4669.82,"text":"南部的民眾已經犧牲那麼多年,健康都受影響了肺腺癌那麼高,說不要演繹好不好你們堅持演繹,可是你們保證說盡量如果一號機開了,三號機不要開我給你看下一張那14號跟15號,賣了不只開了一號機火力全開,連三號機都燒了這樣怎麼對得起人民呢?人民用肺在呼吸,用生命在呼吸"},{"start":4670.714,"end":4697.624,"text":"那這個還是你國家的政策、國化會的政策所以注意你很重要很重要的責任喔好不好怎麼樣減少減少在燒煤怎麼樣讓空屋可以減少你要多花時間好不好而且要非常具體我們今天都不是用嘴巴講而已我今天給你看的東西都是非常具體的好不好好謝謝委員另外問你一個事情你明年的這個宣傳費用暴增了一倍"},{"start":4699.841,"end":4710.305,"text":"大內宣、文宣的這個費用暴增了一倍。你知道嗎?你的媒體宣傳費用在有線電視情有獨鍾一家從去年的1、2年到今年的1、3年我去調資料出來這個大家都查得到的資料"},{"start":4728.493,"end":4737.201,"text":"我們全台灣的有線電視從48台開始東森、財經、E電視、年代電視台東森一直算過來到56有民視、TBS到輝煩都中11台結果你情有獨中獨大一家你這不是得罪其他10家嗎?"},{"start":4752.075,"end":4761.348,"text":"這個我承諾改善啦會做改善因為博定院院長已經講不要過度集中嘛因為這個不只過度集中了喔你是情有獨中一家獨大喔好不好所以其他的要擴大第二個"},{"start":4763.22,"end":4783.857,"text":"你的錢為什麼會增加那麼多?你的先傳費從一千一年計到一千六百九十五萬一家暴增到三千萬我們主要增加的部分跟委員報告主要是來自三個部分亞洲矽谷跟地方創生從前瞻預算移轉事情先做好比較重要不要一直大內宣這是第一個點"},{"start":4784.477,"end":4801.244,"text":"第二、不要情有獨鍾一家其他不換寡而換不均其他都要照顧到第三、不能夠編這麼多預算這個預算編這麼多我一定是大砍的好謝謝謝謝章先生委員主委請坐謝謝本席是情有獨鍾臺灣隊下一位執行請鄭正前委員"},{"start":4822.223,"end":4846.091,"text":"主席好我想請一下劉主委請國會劉主委政委你早主委好上禮拜三教育部長鄭英耀他表示說未來只會要求以全英文上英文課那這是不是表示我們國家的雙語政策在轉彎"},{"start":4849.192,"end":4864.561,"text":"主要是我們希望多花一點以教育部來講他還是希望在老師用熟悉的語言去教育學生因為當時因為我們在那個從107年行政院合併雙語政策"},{"start":4866.082,"end":4882.078,"text":"並函出2030雙語國家這願景那在當中的時候我們在110年9月的時候呢那麼國發會、教育部、人事行政總署、考選部跟公務員保障培訓委員會也提出了一個推動方案"},{"start":4882.719,"end":4901.401,"text":"它裡面很清楚的講到很多的一個目標跟現在教育部長講說只用全英文上英文課其實是一個很大的一個轉彎雖然你剛剛口頭上你沒有覺得說這是轉彎可是實際上大家都覺得它已經是轉彎了因為整個的操作跟目標就已經完全不一樣"},{"start":4902.162,"end":4926.974,"text":"那我要特別講到一個點就是說在那個因為事實上從107年核定雙語政策之後那110年開始推動的時候很多教育界的人大家都覺得這樣子這是有問題的一個雙語政策包括在112年就在公共政策網路產業平台就有超過上萬人希望能夠更改這樣的一個政策可是呢他一繼續堅持下去"},{"start":4928.095,"end":4953.087,"text":"那到前幾天的時候據說是因為我們賴清德總統他覺得說這個部分可以調整所以教育部才出來講因為賴清德從2014年在當台南市長的時候就推出了那個雙語政策到他行政院的時候呢然後來核定這個政策然後持續的往下推所以大家都覺得說現在台灣的雙語政策可能走到了一個瓶頸的一個情況"},{"start":4954.487,"end":4971.187,"text":"以目前看起來來說的時候因為原本的狀態是要用全英文去上所有的課程現在只用英文去上英文課很多老師都直接講說連中文用我們的母語在教我們的小朋友這些知識的部分的時候有些時候都沒有辦法完成你要用一個"},{"start":4972.288,"end":4999.039,"text":"外語他來教這個部分的時候顯然碰到很多的問題有很多學者提到說初步的教育政策會讓我們整個世代的學生的競爭力受到的一些影響那我想特別提到說以現在我們看到教育部提到這個情況的時候那我們國發會在後續的部分有沒有什麼樣子的一個配合或調整還是說這個部分就直接讓教育部這邊去推了"},{"start":5000.546,"end":5014.632,"text":"教育部的部分是教育部會去推那這點我們兩個其實有討論過我個人是支持鄭部長的看法是那因為所以你也覺得用英文去教美勞用英文去教體育是有問題的嘛對不對"},{"start":5018.017,"end":5046.108,"text":"這個東西就是要逐步實施了不可能再對這個讓老師會用他不熟悉的語言因為他可能用熟悉的語言都不見得教得那麼好這個就是一個最大的問題所以當時在110年的時候國發會提出了一個雙語政策推動方案的時候很多學者都覺得是有問題那本席要特別提到的狀態說我們現在如果看到一個這麼重大的一個國家的一個雙語政策都可以在這時候就是三年之後就直接轉彎了"},{"start":5047.228,"end":5062.574,"text":"那未來國外他怎麼在看臺灣這邊所推的所有的國家重大政策?我們以國安會來講我們會我們著重在於雙語的環境我們希望建立一個友善的雙語環境或者譬如說我們現在是跟超商在談"},{"start":5063.494,"end":5076.245,"text":"希望它的販售的標籤會有英文的圖案那我們希望在對 這個部分是另外一件事情因為我覺得對教育部來說這是一個很重大的一個轉變那我個人也覺得這個轉變是對的是好的"},{"start":5078.627,"end":5094.265,"text":"因為否則很多的學生、很多的老師不斷的在反映他們在整個雙語教育過程當中碰到了很多的一個瓶頸那我想特別想知道就是國發會這邊也去了解一下目前在進行中的雙語課程他在教育部這樣轉彎之後的時候後續會碰到怎麼樣的問題"},{"start":5097.689,"end":5122.731,"text":"請給本席一個很完整的書面資料包括已經招聘出來進來的一個國中小的一個雙語老師為了要怎麼樣何去何從等等的問題請給本席一個完整的資料主委另外還提到一個點就昨天國發會在財政委員會直接明白的表示就是說鼓勵授選資金投入都市捷運的一個新建"},{"start":5123.732,"end":5130.03,"text":"我想請教一個部分這個捷運的興建算包不包含包不包含輕軌"},{"start":5133.238,"end":5159.168,"text":"你是說受險基金投資公共建設那只要是公共建設受險基金認為可投資他們就會進去嗎?我的問題其實是坦白說以捷運來說為什麼特別提到輕軌是因為新竹在推大輕軌企劃可是在整個財務的試算當中碰到很大的一個瓶頸所以我想特別問如果受險基金他們覺得他們要投入這些公建的部分的時候他們要投入"},{"start":5160.328,"end":5187.233,"text":"清軌是可以的嗎?你剛剛的回答是表示投入清軌是可以的?基本上如果您看日本或是泰國的案例其實都有民間投入的像日本的三手線或是泰國的Skyline都是有民間的投入他們會賺錢阿現在台灣所有的捷運裡面只有那個台北市的藍線跟紅線賺錢其他的線都不賺錢阿北捷現在還每年虧損十幾億阿對,因為他的經濟目前我在看理解,所以我在說所以我才特別提到說我們現在如果說你覺得說清軌"},{"start":5188.633,"end":5202.657,"text":"受險業者他們也可以去投我們希望動到這三四兆的一個經費投入公件當中的時候那我想問如果他們覺得評估之後可以投的時候他們投入的金額算不算是一個地方配合款算不算地方配合款他應該是"},{"start":5209.098,"end":5229.514,"text":"這個我們可能還是問一下這個跟交通部討論一下因為現在所有地方政府在推動軌道交通當中的時候不管是捷運或者是輕軌都碰到一個財務不夠的一個問題尤其新竹市在推大新竹輕軌的時候跟新竹縣大家就沒有錢啊那如果說現在透過涉險基金的"},{"start":5230.615,"end":5246.611,"text":"額縮減資金的部分他可以投入到公件當中的時候那我們希望他能夠當作地方的一個配合款的一個部分否則地方是完全沒有錢去做這樣的一個公共政策的一個推動好不好沒錯這我們有討論過了包括竹科這條線也有業者提出來"},{"start":5248.165,"end":5261.474,"text":"好那這部分再請給本席一個很清楚的資料因為我們知道說以目前整個政府這邊的時候是希望說造源投資國家的一個發展方案所以希望能夠把它進行導入可是我們認為"},{"start":5263.331,"end":5281.17,"text":"政府可能還要給他們有更多的一個誘因否則光投入這樣子的一個軌道交通是不會賺錢的不會賺錢這些受險基金他們很難投入好的好不好好的因為我們在這次兆元投資方案裡面有一個法規調適小組所以我們到時候如果需要調適法規我們會來左手進行"},{"start":5284.08,"end":5303.169,"text":"國發會有一個Tarant台灣的一個計畫希望在2030年全球攬財40萬人我看到了一個這個大圓餅圖當中的時候我看到Tarant台灣裡面跟整個就業金卡的一個連接度不是特別的高因為目前"},{"start":5304.77,"end":5333.342,"text":"只有18.5%的人已經取得就業金而且到臺灣來那本席希望針對這個部分能夠給本席一個更完整的資料我們Tarant臺灣這邊目前大概有多少人然後要怎麼樣子跟整個就業金卡這邊做一個更好的連結讓他們真正能夠落腳在臺灣因為臺灣確實有出現很大的一個人力不足跟人才荒的問題那我們希望Tarant臺灣能夠有一個比較好的表現好的"},{"start":5333.982,"end":5334.803,"text":"地方創生提案優先部分113年7月為止"},{"start":5347.096,"end":5374.608,"text":"北部這邊有6個優先的地區都沒有新竹市我想知道在整個國發會在推動的一個地方創生計畫當中新竹市提出來多少的一個計畫申請書先跟本席一個很清楚的一個詳細的一個資料因為北區這邊的時候基本上是沒有新竹市可是我們知道地方也很努力在推我想知道目前整個地方送進來多少的申請了多少個提案然後得到多少的一個回饋給本席一個很清楚的資料"},{"start":5375.168,"end":5377.811,"text":"主委請回座下位執行請陳廷培委員謝謝主席我們請國防會主委請國防會劉主委"},{"start":5403.175,"end":5414.521,"text":"陳委員早主委早所以我想我們現在國家發展基金目前重點的支持方向大概是有三大樣五大信賴產業AI新創產業還有綠色成長淨零產業好那我先要問說那這些跟我們所謂傳產或中小企業或是文化產業會有什麼樣的一個直接關聯你要怎麼去協助他們"},{"start":5431.921,"end":5453.892,"text":"AI的基金會協助到產業的AI化我們在於像以工具機來講它需要或者是在螺絲業的自動化生產上面它都需要透過AI的協助誰去協助他們?我們是希望投資新創事業去協助他們投資新創事業去協助他們?對,因為需要有企業去協助去發展這個產業"},{"start":5457.15,"end":5469.127,"text":"可是主委你知不知道其實在我們很多傳產當他要跨到AI這個領域當中他其實有很多他有一些技術上的一個限制"},{"start":5470.526,"end":5472.207,"text":"國發基金的重點支持方向"},{"start":5487.535,"end":5516.056,"text":"五大信賴產業、AI新創產業、綠色成長精靈產業可是這些我們要怎麼跨越到讓我們的傳產可以浮至上海這也是我們國發基金非常重要的區塊否則我們看到國發基金永遠我們所支持的都是上市上櫃的公司可是轉頭看這些新創產業我們能夠得到的其實不多能夠得到我們國發基金協助的並不多"},{"start":5517.133,"end":5546.239,"text":"所以這個其實一直都是我們一個糾結在國發基金也是我們一直被質疑的部分那我們也一直在談也謝謝我們主委在一直拜託把這個資料彙整出來也就是說我們國發基金在扶植台南地區的新創及中小企業政策相關計畫措施還有目前最新辦理進度的報告終於有這份報告"},{"start":5547.728,"end":5570.328,"text":"我們過去所看到的都是一個整體可是我們完全沒有針對各地方去做一個總盤檢所以好不容易在10月份我們國發會有了這份資料我必須問這份資料請問我們可以給台南的產業有什麼樣的協助"},{"start":5572.615,"end":5585.594,"text":"我們其實有幾個方案喔第一個是我們除了有這個創業轉型基金他可以來申請就是轉型基金那第二個部分呢我們其實有設備升級的融資的輔助的"},{"start":5587.937,"end":5589.378,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":5615.675,"end":5630.821,"text":"這個修法的部分那天談完之後我們會重新本來是從企業併購法從那個產創條例去改那現在是跟財政部談完之後從氣併法來修改所以我們會請經濟部開始協助修動這個法令所以可能還要再"},{"start":5631.641,"end":5635.523,"text":"一個會期之後,就產業轉型基金的部分,因為他已經送件了,我們希望經過評審審核,如果能過的話,那會在年底會產生。那我們也會去協調一下那個AI基金,看能不能盡量協助產業的AI轉型。"},{"start":5651.536,"end":5673.746,"text":"主委我們把你這一份資料大概把它區分出來大概有六大項第一個是直接投資方案就是申請國發基金參與投資一億元以上而且有主導性投資人他可以來申請直接投資方案第二個叫加強投資中小企業實施方案中小企業申請國發基金參與投資未達一億者沒錯"},{"start":5677.568,"end":5698.917,"text":"第3加強投資策略性服務業實施方案也就是符合政府產業政策推動的服務業可以申請國發基金參與投資未達一億者然後加強投資策略性製造業實施方案也就是我們的製造業如果未達"},{"start":5700.137,"end":5727.584,"text":"投資一億的部分也可以來申請再來是第5項加強投資文化創意產業實施方案反符合文化創意產業發展法第3條所稱之國內文化創意產業及文創基金第6個是創業天使投資方案這個部分是最新的就是在投資2000萬以下的可以來申請天使投資方案"},{"start":5727.864,"end":5728.644,"text":"臺南企業誰知道?臺南企業誰知道?"},{"start":5746.547,"end":5762.516,"text":"誰來協助他們?沒有人知道欸我把這個資料然後問了我們台南的一些中小企業一些相關的產業我說你知道國發基金有這麼好的一個協助可以讓你們來提升讓你們來轉型嗎?其實很多人都不知道"},{"start":5768.259,"end":5782.638,"text":"這個我們來強化了因為它本來我們是全台灣每一年都會有說明會每半年一次那我們可以再強化它你們每半年一次請問你們說明會的地點在哪裡"},{"start":5783.786,"end":5812.182,"text":"我們在各縣市其實創投工業都有去啦那如果是我想針對辦我一直都強調一點不論是國發會也好經濟部也好我一直在強調你們辦說明會對象你有確定你要的對象都是當中最需要的嗎還是只是說明會應付性的反正有辦你要來就來不來就算了"},{"start":5812.896,"end":5841.513,"text":"這個我們來強化這個我們來改善這很可惜就是說其實我們有很多的方案每一次我跟中小企業在談的時候明明我們每年省的預算從經濟部到國發會都有一些協助轉型跟創新產業投資的一些專案預算可是為什麼他們永遠都得不到永遠他們計劃書送出去就是鬼打牆"},{"start":5842.748,"end":5870.639,"text":"因為他們不知道關鍵在哪裡當你不知道每個方案的關鍵你當然寫出來就沒有辦法符合到那個方案的關鍵用意跟它的用途所以這個才是一個我們每一次不斷的在提醒我們相關部會我們有專案預算我們要到位到位什麼叫到位是真正幫助需要的產業"},{"start":5872.695,"end":5890.404,"text":"委員你講的也是我有請同仁要改善的地方就是說我們應該不是只有審核我們應該含輔導協助這些申請的業者怎麼樣能夠改善他的營運計畫所以我們是不是應該建構一個平台我們要不要建構一個平台一個窗口"},{"start":5892.024,"end":5915.409,"text":"讓每一個各縣市這些從小企業他符合條件的他可以透過這個窗口來協助然後來得到訊息來得到諮詢的方向可以嗎?可以啊,可以可以是不是主委你可以去設立一個窗口這很重要否則南部說真的有諮詢落差"},{"start":5916.653,"end":5932.94,"text":"每一次我們得到的時候都是預算已經被拿完了因為我們不是無限上綱錢永遠在那邊用不完啊每年還是有一個基數在啊這個基數在用完了就不可能還有下一個案子嘛"},{"start":5933.891,"end":5960.801,"text":"所以我們是不是應該把這些基數我們在明年我們設一個窗口把這個窗口公布給所有各產業界知道各工業區知道各園區知道那麼他們就很清楚說好我今天如果有需要我要做創業轉型的時候AI轉型的時候文創轉型的時候我可以得到什麼樣的協助我可以有什麼樣的諮詢方向可不可以可以"},{"start":5961.701,"end":5961.741,"text":"請回座"},{"start":5981.317,"end":6006.849,"text":"剛剛陳秉文委員說的的確是非常重要你不是說只提出改善或者去加強你要具體的做法你要有素質你先請坐這個創農工會只集中在臺北臺中以南包括臺南包括高雄你看你扶植的這個新創產業哪有一家是南部的全部都臺北市的新北市的"},{"start":6011.561,"end":6028.875,"text":"這部分一定要有一個數值化,你要有一個具體的目標希望說你每年扶植的新創事業因為這個國家基金、天使基金投資的這個新創產業要有一半是針對中南部的這個新創事業"},{"start":6031.698,"end":6031.718,"text":"經濟委員會"},{"start":6059.11,"end":6087.413,"text":"有四位、有八位都是在中南部的三分之二都在中南部中南部新創事業微小型企業都沒有一點照顧都沒有我說的難聽點,一點照顧都沒有這間都沒有這間不行這個部分我跟陳俊輝委員還有另外的我們這些委員一定會嚴格監督未來國發基金對這個新創事業"},{"start":6089.571,"end":6118.09,"text":"對於中南部如果沒有任何的這個協助的話這一點就是你們很大的失職這個我希望主委把它當成一個很大的一個不是一個很抽象的一個描述而已所謂加強改善不是你要拿出具體的成績現在有平臺就是平臺沒有到南部去那個創投工會只有在北部嘛"},{"start":6121.807,"end":6126.63,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":6151.308,"end":6153.089,"text":"好 謝謝要具體的成績好 謝謝下位質詢請鄭天才委員怎麼樣"},{"start":6187.983,"end":6190.775,"text":"主席有請主委"},{"start":6200.086,"end":6220.871,"text":"好,主委好,這個花東地區發展條例是在民國100年這個立法院三讀通過所以花東基金從101年開始那現在已經是第4期了所以已經超過這個10幾年了在這樣一個過程當中這個明年度的預算是邁入這個第4期的第2年"},{"start":6229.909,"end":6254.432,"text":"必須也需要去檢討過去才能怎麼樣去針對明年度的預算甚至往後的年度的預算尤其是計劃的核定來做一個檢視我們看這個花東地區發展條例總共只有13條扣除第一條的立法目的以及最後一條公佈施行"},{"start":6256.006,"end":6277.706,"text":"總共9條13條,擴調2條,11條11條裡面光提到原住民的條文就3條第1個第5條原住民族群生活條件及環境改善還有第8條"},{"start":6279.242,"end":6304.608,"text":"原住民族生存保障與文化保存因依原住民族基本法規定擬定相關的這些方案推動原住民族人才培育、輔導原住民參與自然資源維護與經營管理然後這個第11條建遣原住民族部落之交通及公共運輸所以我們要檢視過去的"},{"start":6307.645,"end":6319.481,"text":"已經完成的三期到底原住民族的部分因為花蓮台東是原住民人口最多的地方"},{"start":6322.131,"end":6338.485,"text":"所以這個部分是一個很重要的各族群都有原住民的各族群都有所以在這樣的一個情形之下要去檢視然後因為整個方案都要提到國發會所審查的所以"},{"start":6343.968,"end":6353.172,"text":"國發會基於指導花蓮、台東如何均衡尤其是對於研制民主的部分更加強尤其是各鄉鎮提供各鄉鎮部會"},{"start":6363.326,"end":6371.914,"text":"提出計畫的一個機會那更是一個更是一個可以去強化的地方所以這個部分請這個國話會的同仁能夠去加強檢視這個部分好我們看這個這個為了因應這個"},{"start":6382.95,"end":6410.362,"text":"五次來水的嚴管這是本席在上一屆的時候因為0918地震的時候特別協調經濟部因為經費的不足五次來水計畫經費不足所以就請他們提報到這個國發會國發會在審查之後送到行政院也核定了這個部分這個是第一次"},{"start":6411.523,"end":6431.575,"text":"這是第一次由花東基金來去支應、去協助這個五致愛水的計畫。對,我們支應了3億。對,所以這個部分當時,當時的一個經費的配置,花東基金49多萬,然後這個7000多萬,五致愛水計畫7400多萬,總共14510萬,這是兩年的計畫,這個兩年的計畫到今年。"},{"start":6438.018,"end":6459.563,"text":"那新的就是從明年開始的這個無自來水第7供水改善計畫第5期這個也已經在國會審查之後報行政院在11月18號也核定了我之所以這個要把它提出來也是要去檢視"},{"start":6461.26,"end":6488.355,"text":"也去檢視因為現在是花東地區花東基金去投入去協助而這樣的協助要去檢視說因為這之前核定的時候因為急著需要所以沒有去檢視但是現在核定了也可以去檢視檢視什麼呢要請這個同仁第一個就是說無自來水地區的供水改善計畫"},{"start":6490.1,"end":6512.713,"text":"明年開始第5期那過去的4期過去的4期在花蓮、台東是多少的經費比如說我們就講第3期好了因為第4期有花東基金投入我們就看第3期第3期整個花東是多少經費"},{"start":6514.788,"end":6542.813,"text":"多少經費的比例在整個第3期裡面花東的經費佔多少比例是多少錢然後呢我們就要去計算這個第5期啊這個3億花東基金3億應該是要佔多少的比例所謂多少的比例是這樣啊我是擔心啊我是不希望這樣發生啊但是我們要去協助去督導"},{"start":6543.786,"end":6571.696,"text":"就是說不要因為有花東基金就全部用花東基金再投入在花東啊我第一次說你還是要有原來的第三期的那個比例我們應該是針對那個成本因為它有一個成本的那個每戶成本的那個計算多出來的部分由花東基金來投入譬如說它是這個"},{"start":6573.595,"end":6599.635,"text":"每戶單位單價成本是一百萬的話那超過的部分是由花東基金來去投入這樣才是有一個幫助我們的同仁有瞭解我的意思嗎這樣有瞭解所以這個部分是不是能夠把第三期的第三期的投入在花東的部分到底是多少經費然後它所佔的比例是多少"},{"start":6600.469,"end":6600.629,"text":"檢視第5期應該怎麼做?"},{"start":6631.269,"end":6647.799,"text":"這個也謝謝檔案管理局過去為了這個過去原住民的檔案我也曾經去過這個檔案管理局去查資料我現在就是說我曾經跟行政院要這個公文"},{"start":6648.959,"end":6677.713,"text":"因為我當初我是當處長的時候親自去參加行政院政務委員的會議而且那時候請這個人民會的主任委員去參加為了新民條例羅馬拼音的我只是舉案例不必看得那麼仔細我只是舉案例這個像這樣的一個檔案到底是怎麼樣的不能提供怎麼樣的才能夠提供"},{"start":6679.195,"end":6700.208,"text":"這個部分因為各部會的意見不太一致資料不公開不能公開還是怎麼樣像這樣的這個部分是不是好像這個洗令龍的這個老檔案都可以調出來所以這個部分是怎麼樣的才能夠怎麼樣的不行"},{"start":6701.867,"end":6727.383,"text":"一般的行稿不是機密的我譬如說我當副主委的時候到底我有沒有蓋章類似像這樣要去查的時候因為說不行資訊公開不符合資訊公開法所以這個部分是不是可以去提供後面的書面資料還是口頭再跟我講好了好好好再給你報告好好好謝謝好謝謝曾經財委員那主委請回座"},{"start":6734.585,"end":6741.529,"text":"好,下一位執行請請賴樂隆委員好,謝謝邱昭偉請這個劉主委請國會劉主委"},{"start":6758.248,"end":6784.395,"text":"主委,我先呼應剛剛昭偉跟剛剛陳立法委員的就是我覺得很多的政策還是希望能夠思考南部的思維就是因為很多中央機關是在北部那如果距離南北之間有時候南部的思維會有很大的落差我希望能夠多點南部的思維多了解南部的實際需要甚至說關注南部這個才能讓台灣均衡發展這個對國家發展才是一個"},{"start":6785.015,"end":6805.784,"text":"有利而健康我先呼籲 好的 謝謝接下來我先請教一下各機關其都看好今年度的經濟成長狀況大概到3.96甚至於會達到4%甚至到4.1%主委怎麼看我的看法大概應該是3.96是有很大的機會3.96怎樣應該是很大的機會應該沒有問題我看3.96沒有問題那破4呢或到4.1%呢"},{"start":6814.656,"end":6815.44,"text":"或是的話﹖"},{"start":6818.547,"end":6845.385,"text":"主委你們的判斷?目前看因為現在訂單都差不多了應該是有機會那甚至有的提到4.1%主委認為有機會嗎?4.1%的話4是有機會啦中華經濟研究院預估經濟長率全年可以達到4.1%主委認同這樣的看法?因為這個還是要看AI Server的出貨啦因為前一陣子因為它有過熱的現象它佔比重佔的蠻高的所以主委認為4應該是機會比較大但是4.1要看整個狀況"},{"start":6847.806,"end":6867.472,"text":"那明年度的部分呢?2025年一般預期會過3%主委的看法呢?我目前看是會過3%過3%沒問題那變數大概川普是個因素嗎?川普的一些政策?主要是川普絕對是大因素那大概哪幾個面向主委認為會影響到整個台灣的經濟成長率?"},{"start":6870.314,"end":6881.945,"text":"基本上我在看川普的變數雖然是很大如果他目前只實施對中國60%的制裁的話其實對我們來講是比較有利多的現象"},{"start":6885.828,"end":6908.175,"text":"所以對於中國的制裁的60%的部分的話對台灣對台灣是有利的會有很大的反彈效應所以法對我們的經濟成長力有可能會再提升對第二個事情他對中國是越來越鷹派所以對於技術的禁令等等都會對台灣有很大就有可能會在跟台灣的合作技術的一些移轉甚至技術取得會更大對會加強所以"},{"start":6909.515,"end":6909.936,"text":"其他國家有10%的制裁"},{"start":6925.776,"end":6951.592,"text":"這個制裁因為跟大家都差不多就是10%對全球中國以外的那唯一有一點影響的會是這個部分但是這個也是全球都有的全球都有但是一般來講以2016年來看是當時台商都是FOB我們報離岸價那美國廠商去報關所以付那個關稅但是當時因為調高太快有些廠商受不了會請台商"},{"start":6952.372,"end":6952.592,"text":"第1項第2項第3項"},{"start":6975.606,"end":6998.103,"text":"特別是他們的政策啦就有些他原型再繼續競選搶的話跟最後實際落實到底有什麼樣的落差那隨時調整我們政策來面對對這個我們有在觀察好謝謝那接下來請教一下全台的企業大家都看好台灣的國家景氣甚至也開始重視勝利啦台灣應該整個都走在正確的道路上主委同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":6998.963,"end":7027.25,"text":"我同意整個幾乎同事我看從8年前這樣一路到那種上任之後幾乎一路在我們都是在正確的道路上對以經濟成長率跟現在的就業率來看從客觀的數據呈現也都是如此不管是包括在股市的表現包括我們的失業率3.4%整個都控制得相當好了連我們的物價的部分也都其實控制得相當的不錯目前CPI在2以下了所以我認為其實整個都是在正確的道路上"},{"start":7028.45,"end":7056.113,"text":"那我其實反而覺得接下來在這件事上反而國發會要有更多角色來做我們都希望在經濟成長好、獲利多的時候持續的來提升我們的薪資那我認為有一件事情其實國發會是可以做的國發會有國發基金也投注了相當多在各個一些上市櫃的公司國發基金能不能多去鼓勵就是我說獲利應該要回歸到員工身上讓員工的薪資提升這也是我們的目的是吧"},{"start":7057.505,"end":7083.033,"text":"是的對那我們如果期盼這樣的話國發基金能不能帶頭來做就是你在一些都有一些相關的能不能在裡面做一些要求跟提案一些優質的企業其實本身就應該帶頭來做調薪公司有好的獲益公司主動寄來調薪主委同意這樣的看法嗎同意包括我們自己其實我們現在對內部我們也是用我們已經也是一樣調到31500對我們那個我們的外包商的"},{"start":7086.374,"end":7102.932,"text":"其實都是啦我們公務員的調薪我們所有的國營企業的調薪各有多的調薪我們希望民間也跟著調薪那國發基金投注在相當多的我認為有一個政策目標我希望主動在董事會裡面主動去提案就是有好的獲利就調薪有好的獲利"},{"start":7103.352,"end":7125.132,"text":"只要大了這些條心,其他大家都會跟著調我認為要帶動國家發展基金要扮演這樣的角色主委這個可以嗎?這個可以另外同時間也希望未來透明化國家發展基金在投注的時候同時間也去要求除了你本身的未來的潛力跟那個以外同時間也要求你的資金、你的薪資透明化甚至於你在你的一個薪資的部分"},{"start":7125.692,"end":7152.686,"text":"我認為那個都可以作為是一個審查參考的依據也就是說你本身是好的獲利你本身是有潛力以外我希望你的好的獲利你的潛力你賺到的錢之後你會分到你的員工身上去讓你的人才留住讓好的企業基本上都會啦但是我希望國發會更重視這樣的原則在審查的時候讓它成為是國發基金審查的一個基本原則讓所有的優質企業都知道國發會、國發基金重視這件事情主委這個可以嗎?"},{"start":7153.486,"end":7178.468,"text":"這絕對可以,因為我們現在把ESG的分數放出來把它納入到你們的辦法裡面好嗎?沒問題這兩件事情我希望立即有成果一個禮拜內給我你們最後的處理方式好不好我希望納入到你的辦法裡面同時間在董事會裡面來做正式的提案過是一回事但是國發會的態度告訴大家有獲利了我們希望你把薪資回歸到員工身上多帶頭來調薪好不好"},{"start":7180.109,"end":7183.411,"text":"領口新創園已經上軌道,國發會在高雄經濟部做了雅灣新創園,我希望國發會更加大力道支持。"},{"start":7197.717,"end":7213.015,"text":"定期每3個月給我一次你們投入的一些報告給我好嗎?好的好最後一題啦齁時間也快到了主委地方創生我認為其實相當重要啦齁那整個這幾年地方創生幾乎也達到將近提案率有達到7成我認為其實"},{"start":7214.296,"end":7215.197,"text":"其中一項提案能力或資源相對弱一些"},{"start":7237.089,"end":7263.395,"text":"來南部走走來跟這些創生團隊談一下來聽聽他們的聲音同時用更多的力氣來支援他們來做地方創生提案好嗎好的沒問題好謝謝主委謝謝這個代委員時間掌握的精準啊令人敬佩主委請回座我們在楊瓊瑜委員質詢完之後我們會休息下位質詢請"},{"start":7267.578,"end":7287.342,"text":"因為10點半大家都可能要去洗手間下一位質詢請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席楊瓊英委員請主委請國會的劉主委"},{"start":7297.7,"end":7311.332,"text":"委員早主委好我們針對於促進人力資源發展跟推動人口以及移民政策強化整個延攬國際人才的這個部分我們來討論我看到在你114年的預算裡頭你編列了8900萬元那我們據各種產業的主管在112年下半年度他陸續發布"},{"start":7321.661,"end":7327.064,"text":"從113年到115年的重點產業人才供需的調查跟推估112年辦理的成果我們發覺有18個重點產業當中就有8種8項的產業廠商反映了人才不足這是佔多數而且在IC設計"},{"start":7344.435,"end":7368.362,"text":"智慧機械以及數位醫療這個產業約有7成以上的廠商一致反映人才不足在這樣的情況之下本席首先要請教面對重點產業人力不足的問題那國防會你要嚴引怎麼樣的一個因應方案比如說是不是會加強延攬外國專業人才來提升我們整個的產業競爭力請做說明"},{"start":7373.684,"end":7387.926,"text":"是的,我們對於外國專業人才我們修訂的法令我們會更寬鬆的調整我們的吸引力那目前我們即將會進入那個預覽期另外我們也對什麼時候會預覽?"},{"start":7389.417,"end":7402.651,"text":"我們現在還有一些細節的部分你的時間大概什麼時候會公布呢?因為這個本席跟你討論過很多次我們也希望現在是無國界所有全世界的人才要怎麼樣去交流請問你們預估什麼時候會預覽?"},{"start":7405.66,"end":7426.195,"text":"我們預估應該還要再三個禮拜,原因是我解釋一下,我們現在臨時加入了中階人才進到這個法條裡面,再增加一個中階人才,那中階人才主要是對一些技術工,那我們現在發現其實勞工進來是不能解決技術問題,所以我們希望對中階人才,就類似工程師類的"},{"start":7428.337,"end":7434.519,"text":"對,像旱階,譬如說具5年工作經驗的旱階工等等那現在對這個定義我們希望定義得更清楚所以預計在3個禮拜後就是下個月月中就在12月中可以去公告外國這個專業人才的一個"},{"start":7445.158,"end":7460.776,"text":"對 因為我們專業人才的部分已經修法完成了我們現在只是等待中階人才的部分對 所以這個呢我希望我們一定要積極因為沒有人才你什麼都做不了了而且我們的產業需求量是這麼的大加油那接下來本期要跟你討論績效管理的問題"},{"start":7461.917,"end":7467.866,"text":"在你的114年裡頭你的績效管理那你向下是編列1628萬2000元那在這個當中我們看到本席覺得邏輯很奇怪107年到112年你總共有23項是緩半"},{"start":7478.18,"end":7493.57,"text":"或者是停辦那這個每一年你都有緩辦跟停辦跟預警機制到現在你唯一曾列入退場評估的有兩項第一個整建長照衛福這個據點計畫第二個是建構0到2歲兒童社區公共托育計畫這兩項"},{"start":7501.875,"end":7516.065,"text":"但是你雖然有納入評估停辦但是你到目前為止還是在執行中沒有一家退場沒有一家退場本席非常的重視教育本席也非常的重視長者這個目前這兩項都是在我們的地方裡頭非常熱烈迫切需要為什麼在我們的地方這麼需求你竟然會曾經要列入它停辦"},{"start":7527.012,"end":7549.266,"text":"而且本席不知道到底你們現在的政策方向到底是怎麼樣所以本席要跟你討論的就是說你的整個預警機制怎麼跟我們的地方會落差那麼大呢你的執行效率到底是怎麼樣你既然預警要停辦唯一兩項又是本席最重視的"},{"start":7551.841,"end":7558.87,"text":"這個太奇怪了那你們在疫情之際到底出了什麼問題呢?你現有的退漲條件你要怎麼去調整?"},{"start":7561.056,"end":7588.95,"text":"請說明我這個我想委員講得很好我們這個當時列入這個配上主要是他執行的進度是有落差那達到達到一定的程度但是因為這兩件事就像您講的這是非常重要的事所以因為他非常重要所以我們現在並沒有真正實施本期具體要求你要把你的預警必須要跟我們的社會面向要能夠吻合您剛才主委說的是因為他的績效不好"},{"start":7590.511,"end":7600.519,"text":"那當然你在整個執行的過程當中社會需求執行效果不好問題出在哪裡你申請的條件到底是怎麼樣你應該從這邊去討論而不是直接把它列列到這個退場機制這個讓人家看了會嚇一跳啊"},{"start":7607.085,"end":7615.033,"text":"沒錯我們現在正在調整中因為當時是很多地方像長照來講他先申請然後又發現條件不符或者你承認需要調整是嗎對我們會調整畢竟是要調整多久時間去調整方案出來給本席"},{"start":7623.27,"end":7641.091,"text":"這個讓人家嚇一跳啊我們這個一個月內給你書面報告一個月內去將你的預警機制監督機制去調整好送出來好不好不要讓基層不知所措啊這個長照跟這個幼兒是最重要的竟然是列在國發會的推"},{"start":7642.953,"end":7667.869,"text":"退場機制笑話真的笑話接下來本席跟你討論半導體人才的這個問題本席要請教半導體學院呢竟然大專院校有人說據媒體報導說我們有去指揮人家要怎麼做要怎麼做有這回事嗎沒有啊因為我們官方經營人根本就忙不過來了你忙不過來沒有這回事你有沒有看到報導這麼報導"},{"start":7670.604,"end":7698.037,"text":"呃...我沒有看到,但我...那你們不是有情報...有這個...這個...每天的新聞情收嗎?本席具體建議,如果你們確實沒有去干涉,那你應該要提出聲明,對不對?不要讓各大專院下...大家有所恐慌啊,是不是?是的所以本席要請教喔,那個...呃...我們郭部長說,台積電每一年要在台灣蓋一座廠,對不對?"},{"start":7699.975,"end":7723.531,"text":"就他這幾天的言論對那在這樣的情況之下我們不管是大學或者是半導體的學院這些人才的需求都是非常的需要都是非常的需要所以我們想要請教這些的缺口每一年要一座台積電更何況還有很多的產業很多的公司他也會設啊"},{"start":7724.472,"end":7743.826,"text":"那你的人才跟目前你在培育的你的KPI你怎麼做你預估你的人才缺口大概會有多少半島體的人才我們現在預估一年要有至少要有6000人一年至少要有6000人對對對而且是逐步在增加對不對"},{"start":7745.527,"end":7769.702,"text":"每一年要增加對每一年要成長那如果像這個主任你所說的你了解這個產業那你人才你的來源要怎麼來我們有跟這些主要的廠商密切在關注他的設廠時間跟招募時間那我們基本上以學校為主那另外還有就是你現在看到的重點領域的學生為主"},{"start":7771.903,"end":7789.379,"text":"那這個目前來講目前以國內來講半導體的供給量是比較夠但它產生了對其他產業的反擊效應所以我們跟這個相關的部會有在探討這些事情所以這個呢人才非常重要本期還是具體建議缺口的部分你要怎麼樣"},{"start":7790.84,"end":7816.861,"text":"要有循序漸進的方案去去把它補足之那整體的一個人才要怎麼樣去做調配我想這是國防會你很重要的一個課題好不好你去研擬然後把方案給本席好的好嗎謝謝好謝謝楊前議員主委請回座現在我們休息休息時間6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘"},{"start":7823.796,"end":7834,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位"},{"start":7851.67,"end":7858.117,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":7876.513,"end":7886.179,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院總預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":7904.426,"end":7907.269,"text":"第2項議員委員會及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":7922.066,"end":7938.641,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":7947.027,"end":7969.718,"text":"所以我想說董事長你跟我們講那個產業總統你剛剛講的那個是18億還是30億對啊,他們怎麼輸到現在沒有沒有,我們都是31億啊他們要申請還有我們都可以啊都可以啊沒有,還是只有自己那個已經送案了啦那個他們要申請公司,送案大概就是那個董事長、副議員、林秦鴻、林啟鴻這些人在附屬"},{"start":7983.14,"end":7983.961,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":8016.063,"end":8038.628,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續"},{"start":8046.197,"end":8059.027,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算"},{"start":8070.506,"end":8096.988,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":8105.844,"end":8118.671,"text":"第1項第2項第3項第4項第5項第6項第7項第8項第9項第10項第11項第12項第13項第14項第15項第16項第17項第18項第19項第19項第20項第21項第22項第23項第24項第25項第26項第27項第28項第29項第30項第31項第32項第33項第34項第35項第36項第37項第38項第39項第40項第41項第42項第42項第43項第44項第45項第46項第47項第47項第48項第48項第49項第49項第50項第50項"},{"start":8150.814,"end":8158.198,"text":"第2項議員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":8160.566,"end":8171.437,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算"},{"start":8179.368,"end":8181.47,"text":"第2項議員會議第1項議員會議第2項議員會議"},{"start":8201.767,"end":8209.473,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":8231.851,"end":8232.253,"text":"第2項第3項第4項第5項"},{"start":8236.817,"end":8245.099,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":8266.704,"end":8273.386,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":8292.951,"end":8304.317,"text":"第1項第2項第3項第4項第5項第6項第7項第8項第9項第10項第11項第12項第13項第14項第15項第16項第17項第18項第19項第19項第20項第21項第22項第23項第24項第25項第26項第27項第28項第29項第30項第31項第32項第33項第34項第35項第36項第37項第38項第39項第40項第41項第42項第42項第43項第44項第45項第46項第47項第47項第48項第49項第49項第50項第50項第51項"},{"start":8326.913,"end":8327.333,"text":"邱志偉委員"},{"start":8346.02,"end":8371.976,"text":"各位,我想剛剛提到就是說這個國家發展基金不是北台灣發展基金國家基金它所有投資應該是要遍布於全台灣所以我再跟你說經濟委員會14個委員有9位是中南部所以我們全力支持這個國家基金全力支持國家發展預算那你們在國家基金分配的時候"},{"start":8373.529,"end":8394.208,"text":"應當要多重視中南部像你看你的直接投資你的投資計畫裡面包括直接投資創投投資跟創業天子投資總共加起來大概將近一千億一年了對不對你們告訴我你直接投資大概這將近八百億中南部企業的比例大概有多少大概啦"},{"start":8395.942,"end":8401.206,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、花東地區永續發展中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、花東地區永續發展中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":8424.281,"end":8449.921,"text":"我們在高雄...不是,請問一下,等一下,會議暫停所以我要求這個審預算,執密一定要來,這個執密為什麼沒有來?這誰先暫停?他剛剛有來啦那現在執密呢?他會議期間為什麼會不見?他現在因為有...你要跟主席請假啊他之前三次都沒有請假三次我主持會議他都沒有來"},{"start":8451.175,"end":8476.016,"text":"那我現在找他,我現在問他,執密在哪裡?主委,你連執密都管不到,你要怎麼管文化基金?對,因為他是說有會議啦有會議要跟主席講阿是是是如果不要跟我講,也要跟他蔡宇宇講,現在他代理主席阿對,欸?就我了解有請假,核准的哪有請假?"},{"start":8478.673,"end":8499.787,"text":"駕單在哪裡?沒有駕單委員會有沒有說到?有沒有口頭項目指示?這個我先會議暫停,等一下來之後我們繼續開會在哪裡?他為什麼可以不告而別?藐視立法院、藐視經濟委員會、藐視會議主席這個"},{"start":8508.956,"end":8533.055,"text":"主委,你這個內部的指,主管管理你可能要你不要以為在立法院隨便來混混是,這個我很抱歉,這個我們可能執命不在,他管國家基金執命不在你不知道他早上,剛才是有來啦,剛才是有來他有來他要離開也要跟主席請假啊對,是他,沒錯"},{"start":8540.323,"end":8566.107,"text":"到底能去哪裡?那有沒有跟主委?主委你知道他請假嗎?你不知道請假他請假?連你都不知道他請假?難怪國發基金管理成這樣子我已經剛才我坐在那邊我當主席的時候我就告訴你說國發基金我很重視不要變成北台灣發展基金 對不對?"},{"start":8568.018,"end":8593.423,"text":"我就先跟你預告說我會問這個問題主席我們是不是等執密來我們再開會你可以先宣布休息有請他來了還有多久我們不能等他所有委員在等一個執密"},{"start":8601.164,"end":8626.389,"text":"這個本席是很少動怒的我像是翁文如雅我是就事論事我不是對人預算諮詢你如果業務報告你沒有關係預算諮詢你請假固然可以請假是你的權利但是你也要經過主席投議你也要不管書面口都要講一下嘛"},{"start":8628.319,"end":8630.58,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":8651.243,"end":8652.163,"text":"那還是我們先休息。"},{"start":8684.582,"end":8704.593,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":8727.486,"end":8732.287,"text":"我現在休息時間我先讀有意義嗎?等重新開會後再說規定慢一下休息期間"},{"start":8910.669,"end":8913.172,"text":"請主委是不是先回座位休息"},{"start":9110.343,"end":9110.364,"text":"第2項議員會議"},{"start":9219.748,"end":9220.398,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":9312.646,"end":9313.484,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":9368.874,"end":9370.825,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":9501.792,"end":9502.599,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":9652.09,"end":9656.372,"text":"好那我們繼續開會那這個邱志偉委員的資訊時間重新計算請邱志偉"},{"start":9684.93,"end":9710.215,"text":"主委請問今天的議審是什麼?今天的議審是審預算、審國發費的預算跟基金預算。國發費有沒有包括國家發展基金?寒了。對。預算是很重要。是的。關稅到全年的運作。那國發基金主管人員是誰?除了你之外,誰負責國發基金?我們的汪子密。那為什麼汪子密不在?你知道嗎?"},{"start":9711.36,"end":9736.676,"text":"主委,您知道嗎?你不知道?對,因為我早上有看到他執迷,這個是我們內部重要的國家發展基金的預算審查,很多問題要請教你我諸事主持會議,你都沒有親自出席,你都請傅執迷出席"},{"start":9737.997,"end":9764.66,"text":"國會請副執行長轉告你說希望你在預算審查你一定要出席是剛剛我要質詢你要請教你幾個問題是就你不在然後我問主委主委說不清楚去哪裡他不清楚第一個你沒有行政論理的觀念連你主管都不知道你去哪裡在國會你當作兒戲第二點你對國會不尊重"},{"start":9766.75,"end":9781.439,"text":"預算審查是國會的職權對行政部門的監督是年度的大事這個會期最重要的是預算審查國發化基金何等重要對產業的支持、對新創的支持對地方發展的支持你對國會不夠重視另外你對主席也藐視"},{"start":9792.244,"end":9793.965,"text":"委員這是我們內部的錯他有在內部請假了但是可能我們到這邊來的程序有問題"},{"start":9821.444,"end":9845.314,"text":"從這事情來看阿我覺得這個國會內部的管理阿主委你要再多用點心阿是的是的我很少會為這種事情生氣那我不希望這種事情會影響到你們這個預算的審查如果連你這個執行秘書對你的國發基金預算都不重視的話國會怎麼又去支持你的預算呢所有的國發基金只有你最了解嘛"},{"start":9851.533,"end":9879.934,"text":"主委剛上來他怎麼可能了解國家基金到底是目前執行狀況怎麼樣呢?你的報告裡面你的所有投資計畫投資計畫裡面今年度你針對這個所有投資計畫裡面對中南部投資你到底有多少?我問主委,主委他不可能知道嘛一定要執密嘛直接投資、創投投資跟創業天使投資是你的重大投資計畫"},{"start":9881.502,"end":9904.663,"text":"我告訴你14位經濟委員會委員9位是來自中南部對中南部的這個相關的產業支持是國家發展基金該有的這個基本思維所以我要問你突然問這個主委他當然沒辦法答出來那我現在問你你這個中南部企業的比例直接投資今年度是多少"},{"start":9905.811,"end":9929.292,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9929.772,"end":9952.69,"text":"這3年我們在高雄辦了14場的這個說明會平均每年大概辦5場但我們還是覺得不夠因為只要有我們新創部不夠了解都是我們的責任比例是多少?比例是多少?對中南部的比例是多少?直接投資的部分對中南部的比例的這個投資我想讓我們回去精算一下以這個中南部加起來的話目前來講87件是佔7.3%你看7.3%而已"},{"start":9959.272,"end":9970.63,"text":"其實很害怕你要怎麼面對這個經濟委員會14位委員來自9位是中南部的創投投資的部分呢?你們來之前這些數字都要準備好是"},{"start":9971.85,"end":10000.481,"text":"創投投資的部分創投的部分跟委員報告多數的創投我們投國內跟國外目前手上有63家創投那國外的這個佔了大概三分之一那國內的這個部分多數的創投因為臺北市金融中心所以中南部有沒有中南部的創投沒有嘛創業天使投資都是集中在臺北嘛對不對所以你所有投資計畫裡面基本上投資在中南部的少是右手"},{"start":10001.462,"end":10029.499,"text":"奉毛領餃兼累計將近1000億投資到底有多少在中南部所以你們要檢討說你們投資的項目你們投資的方向投資的區域應該做得公平化要平衡均衡發展嘛委員會做一個優化的計畫跟您報告我親自跟您報告所以我想這是基本態度問題"},{"start":10032.268,"end":10059.822,"text":"這個公務人員包括在政府不管是在立法部門或行政部門為官制到在人人賴就是人就是說對事情你要盡心盡力對你的部署你要善待你的部署這樣才會國強民富嘛而不是自己的責任你不釐清也不好好把你的工作做好這樣不行"},{"start":10061.338,"end":10070.785,"text":"國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":10093.035,"end":10113.582,"text":"跟委員抱歉我們會來改善因為他有請假的確但是內部因為沒有溝通到這裡來所以造成這個我想我們整個流程會重新檢討跟委員再次道歉我這個是這樣子基本上我很少生氣生氣我是對事不對人"},{"start":10115.168,"end":10139.793,"text":"我肯定植民的能力但您的處理事情的態度我認為是有欠思慮不周了我來檢討螺絲業植民你先回座螺絲業是傳統產業面臨兩年的寒冬明年可能又會更大的風暴"},{"start":10141.209,"end":10162.598,"text":"不能完全把國家的資源集中在半導體或者這個AI要更多的資源去協助這個傳統產業的轉型跟螺絲擴建就如此我看不到有任何資金的挹注或者是這個轉型的這些計畫來協助屬於在中南部比較傳統的產業這個主委您覺得對螺絲"},{"start":10168.891,"end":10196.771,"text":"你的想法呢?這個產業我會找經濟部做一個檢討因為主要是這個產業目前兩種一種走高質化到職牙跟太空另外一個走經濟規模現在的規模過小時間到我就要暫停執行我剛剛所提我請教你的希望你再用書面資料給我另外最中東歐投資跟融資目前執行狀況是的好的這部分也提供書面資料給我"},{"start":10201.681,"end":10204.323,"text":"我是沒有生氣也沒有動怒我是有點難過而已"},{"start":10225.691,"end":10242.697,"text":"我相信理直氣和不一定大聲但是該追究的責任我想主委還是要去了解一下我希望以後不要再發生這件事情主管能源對他的預算一定要用最大的努力來爭取下一位質詢請謝鳳委員"},{"start":10257.689,"end":10261.412,"text":"謝謝主席。我想請我們劉主委。請國會劉主委。劉主委有驚到嗎?參譜上台你有驚到嗎?"},{"start":10275.578,"end":10277.5,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10294.66,"end":10318.093,"text":"在這次選戰所主張的經濟民主主義還要提高關稅對其他地區是10%對中國大陸是60%那對於我剛才看了相關的數字相關的模型的眼裡那當然對於中國的經濟會重創但是你必須要思考有非常多的"},{"start":10319.653,"end":10346.994,"text":"臺灣的傳產以及高科技產業目前都在中國大陸發展那過去我們臺灣有百分之30%的這個出口是對大陸那對大陸以後有可能他們又怎麼樣子又銷售往美國那所以會嚴重的重創臺灣的經濟你講的也許會加速他們回流"},{"start":10347.754,"end":10368.231,"text":"那但是真的會回流到台灣嗎?所有的台商除了台灣以外在上一次上一次同樣情況川普當選的時候對於香港對於新加坡的經濟是重創比台灣更嚴重的情況"},{"start":10369.472,"end":10388.017,"text":"那這一次人家會不會已經做好準備了?新加坡會不會已經做好準備了?臺商一定要移往、移回臺灣嗎?他不會移往臺灣以外的東南亞的第三季例如馬來西亞會不會?"},{"start":10390.633,"end":10417.931,"text":"台商會多元的發展它的新供應鏈那目前來講它會是在目前看起來東南亞是越南跟泰國為主那另外在北美的部分是以這個墨西哥與德州為主那現在也有部分開始移往東歐所以看起來全球化的佈局會更因應這個保守主義的興起會更積極的全球化在台商的運作裡面當然也一部分會到台灣來"},{"start":10419.795,"end":10444.933,"text":"對還有現在美國他所要做的就是提高他核能提高他核能增加兩倍200預計要增加200GW在這樣子的情況下未來美國還是AI的研發重鎮那台灣呢"},{"start":10446.544,"end":10467.073,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10467.827,"end":10493.852,"text":"他們注重的是經濟民主主義會不會退出WTO他會不會如果這樣子臺灣依賴出口ICT半導體所依據的WTO裡面的ITA的相關的協定的租稅免稅協定到時候會不會變成另外一個關稅的障礙會不會"},{"start":10497.104,"end":10518.155,"text":"如果美國退出的話?如果美國退出當然要看川普的政策但是臺灣的產品多數是零件跟替美國公司組裝再回到美國啦那最大的影響的廠商以目前來看還是以美國廠商受傷會比較重所以我想川普也會深思這個部分"},{"start":10518.942,"end":10542.971,"text":"因為他在2016年那次他在調整關稅的時候他其實有一個公開閱覽讓民眾來提出來哪些會已經造成通膨影響內部民生所以那些當時是有拿掉所以當時他快速的提高這個稅制的時候並沒有造成民生物資的大幅的改變所以我們也在觀察這一次是不是他也會很理性的處理這件事情"},{"start":10543.371,"end":10568.642,"text":"所以你認為他退出的就是說退出WTO就是我們還的那個可能性是很低的是不是不能說低啦但是大家會面臨的狀況會一樣但是他如果退出想要再提高稅制他會有內部的一個充分的討論那你是說你上次來看所以還是有這樣子相關的風險性存在是不是是存在的"},{"start":10569.79,"end":10597.101,"text":"那對於臺灣呢你知道就是說目前臺灣的產業已經面臨了就是K型的高科技的發展的越好傳產的就越來越差在這一次提高關稅美國提高關稅其實有很大的會影響到的就是傳產那對於我們的精密機械我們工具機的影響呢"},{"start":10598.742,"end":10627.095,"text":"要分開來看如果我們最大競爭對手在對岸的話那對岸會是60%的關稅提升我們是10%那10%因為它是對於中國以外的國家所以是一個齊頭式的拉動所以在比較利益上我們還是有反而相較於中國拉動60%的關稅來看如果我們的競爭對手是對岸的像工具機或者是螺絲扣件業那多少會有比較好的對工具機好處會多一點"},{"start":10628.086,"end":10639.449,"text":"就是說那怎麼樣子再加大這個力道呢?再加大讓我們就是說因應這個關稅的變化讓我們的傳產能夠在這個期間內能夠急速的上升呢?我有找郭部長討論我們希望開始跟傳產進行座談那我們會加快這個座談跟討論那怎麼樣進行?"},{"start":10655.462,"end":10681.303,"text":"原則上我們會請工業領袖或是企業領袖大家一起坐下來討論對,因為你沒有創造環境啊你沒有創造這樣子的經濟發展的環境啊我看到了相關的週刊的報導你說你要做的是一個大國發會但是我看到啦過去國發會大國發會是媒體下的標題不是我個人的意見這個我還是要澄清一下"},{"start":10681.843,"end":10706.753,"text":"不是你個人意見是不是因為我看到的是現在行政院裡面有三個就是經濟發展委員會下面有三個有創新經濟、有均衡台灣、有包容成長結果就把你原本國發會的怎樣一分為三是不是你只是三分之一而已還有其他兩個"},{"start":10707.773,"end":10708.013,"text":"國發會的功能性已經不如過去"},{"start":10728.358,"end":10756.416,"text":"過去在永續會對於淨零碳排現在移到總統府去了啊對不對那國發會呢國發會現在進行的就是你們相關的基礎建設嗎我們的工作內容還是沒有變啊因為執行還是要到部會所以我們還在部會上面那上面只是從政策的引導給我們一些指導我們但是在整個執行面還是在部會之間所以我們原來的功能並沒有消失啦"},{"start":10757.176,"end":10757.496,"text":"下一位質詢請陳昌明委員"},{"start":10791.69,"end":10795.335,"text":"主席好徐席怒他現在有請我們國會我們劉志偉請國會劉志偉"},{"start":10806.281,"end":10829.132,"text":"陳委員早其實啊我們的召委邱召委是很有理性很謙和的人那今天發生這樣的事情真的是國會要檢討檢討是的好不好是的那我今天第一個我首先要感謝國會對於行政院核定陶芷淼大溪谷計畫"},{"start":10830.529,"end":10846.9,"text":"尤其國發會特別的支持我們苗栗縣結果我們爭取了主覽科學研期第二期、投入科學研期還有貨農產業專業研期特別的感謝你還有我們國土發展次"},{"start":10847.68,"end":10872.185,"text":"我們的黃處長還有彭副主任再次謝謝啊容乃要繼續給我們幫忙跟協助好不好是的謝謝你來表現你來看我們苗栗實在是很有發展的地方比南部還要好不要天天顧著南部那一個地點是會花絕的寶所以請你一定要多多的跟我們關心支持是的第二點"},{"start":10874.354,"end":10897.421,"text":"剛剛我聽了賴若瑋委員談到地方創生其實地方創生是上山下海那我今天也特別感謝我們黃次長在苗栗縣配合的三個景點都非常的成功我特別感謝他那今天我為什麼感謝他因為他真的陪著上山下海他到地方又不怎麼講話"},{"start":10898.641,"end":10915.78,"text":"我在旁邊問他的意見他又很客氣但是每一次提的意見非常的中困所以在地方暢順上我們在苗栗縣有很大發展我再大力的推展我一直跟黃社長說你也跟你們主委說一下"},{"start":10916.661,"end":10935.061,"text":"你也編一個規劃費用可行性評估,給地方開始財政有困難的地方,給他們地方營造一個真正的一個好的規劃。這台電動電有很多。所以,劉主委,這點我要給你清心體驗,而且我是親自去推動的。"},{"start":10935.982,"end":10964.507,"text":"我希望這個兩天就進去有一個顧問會用可行性評估對地方的幫忙很大地方創生財會繼續的推動,這樣好不好?我們會來用示範的方式來考慮啦,我想是不是說我找個時間找一個要求來看?你找個時間我就要跟你說內部啦,不然你怎麼做我自己知道,又不便你講講的話就得罪了很多"},{"start":10967.481,"end":10981.188,"text":"一些團體還有一些人再來我一件問題叫你做科研你都沒什麼在關心我看了一個報導說國華會10年新高國華會通過114年公建預算2405億交通建設占過半"},{"start":10993.192,"end":11003.424,"text":"這台列5項就是在114年的公務共建設預算跟前瞻予期,前瞻予期有"},{"start":11005.314,"end":11024.94,"text":"幾百億你知道嗎?有啊!七百多億啊!七百零三億啊!七百零三億啊!現在就剩下差不多一千七百億的工啊!但是我等一下就跟你說啊!我說拜託拜託!這個資料給我!你把我的花東耳邊封!我下次招委我就要叫來修繪了我跟你講!"},{"start":11026.642,"end":11055.169,"text":"這裏面我要你說各部會提出266項的計劃。前瞻第5期是49項的公共建設計劃。我說叫你大的項目內給我,你們無動於衷啊。有啦,我執行你去看一下。我怎麼要挨借呢?你大的計劃出來,我才能看預算師,比較容易找到重點。"},{"start":11057.042,"end":11079.571,"text":"關於財政困難我能爭取多一點大概兩個禮拜給我算是說要兩個禮拜給我又沒有又透過兩個月了再兩個禮拜給你好不好我今天就給你啦阿不!這樣我感謝你開始問一下管理顧問當時剛出來有這個經驗在嗎不然好謝謝黃市長我要再來跟你說我今天看到一個新聞"},{"start":11088.143,"end":11104.461,"text":"我覺得說韓國把軍工企業外銷到波蘭哪裡很多將近超過500億美金我回家我就想到一些問題那你曉得我們國外基金有投資到中鋼的那個是吧"},{"start":11110.955,"end":11136.411,"text":"審查海域的公司有6、14億兩年這樣都開掉一年了10億但是我看他們發的新聞稿我覺得很悲哀說你台灣的資助率你又把它取消掉我覺得很莫名其妙中鋼真的沒有什麼如果這樣的作為四季鋼小公司人家一直這樣做過來"},{"start":11138.332,"end":11142.873,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管"},{"start":11158.138,"end":11179.899,"text":"他的團隊裏面很多南部的勢力太深了中港在南部地方是插手的很多這裏面牽扯很多問題今天要解決這個問題我建議周偉啊你要把中港那個什麼達星達、海基啊要弄好排一個考察"},{"start":11180.8,"end":11197.963,"text":"排一個世紀綱排一個中綱去考察你比較出來就能了解問題之所在我排過了你沒去啊不是你排過我怎麼不曉得你也沒有通知我去我上次你以後要找專家我連專家過去你要兩個比較一下就能發覺問題在哪裡那你們還要不要繼續投資新黨海基嗎我們現在我們已經"},{"start":11211.072,"end":11234.315,"text":"不會再加碼了對!這一點我就贊成一間大公司請他決定做出來比小公司還不止中鋼真的要檢討不能投資還有不能投資他什麼綠電的買賣平台硬的不行還要吃軟的中鋼這麼沒有骨氣啊中鋼未來的經營也要特別的注意啊"},{"start":11235.785,"end":11257.572,"text":"我希望這一點要特別注意還有國產自治化現在說要開放您講是在損壞台灣的資金出賣台灣那歐洲公司WTO說要告我們怕什麼?川普保護旨意就出來了自由貿易跟保護旨意現在在戰內你怕什麼?"},{"start":11259.946,"end":11269.142,"text":"你給歐洲人一直要威脅、恐嚇你們就下來還跟他搭配其實他們要的就是這些東西你知道他們給"},{"start":11271.129,"end":11299.163,"text":"我以前提過了好幾次啊中港真的不爭氣你欠漢港漢港你曉得司機去港的漢接了工人找不到他從哪裡越南跳過來那個社會上你的學問這麼多你怎麼想成那個劉志輝你執行管理"},{"start":11300.662,"end":11327.119,"text":"顧問公司的董事長,我相信你很了解民生的安排運作。是,我了解。好不好,這一點再來啦。啊,我們只要講啊,你連風電都遮不住,韓國、台北、金工企業,你如何去抗中保台,每天都要跟我們講抗中保台。風電都遮不住,要如何抗中保台?我實在也想不通啊。"},{"start":11328.4,"end":11352.206,"text":"他也點頭了不要天天喊抗中擺台我們實力搶最重要我們稍微好謝謝你又站起來了我現在很怕你你站起來萬一我不下台你就生氣了我不會生氣我只是這個讓議事順利進行好請主委回座"},{"start":11353.917,"end":11358.969,"text":"其實本席沒有生氣啦我也沒有動怒我只是希望說議事能夠順利進行讓預算審查能夠能夠順利我的出發點是這樣子"},{"start":11364.298,"end":11392.135,"text":"很像是對事不對人所有的這個國外的同仁也應該是為自己所屬單位的預算全力去爭取這是本來就是你們的職責之所在如果質詢所有人不在當然這個對對質詢委員是有點不太尊重希望大家彼此互相互相尊重好下一位質詢請李玉玲召委"},{"start":11400.618,"end":11403.599,"text":"謝謝主席請劉主委請國安會劉主委主委劉委員早賴總統他在上任的時候有提出了這個五大信賴產業同時也宣布了要延長這個我們臺灣的投資三大方案也宣示了要讓我們的半導體還有AI的產業作為主軸"},{"start":11428.647,"end":11434.99,"text":"所以要讓不管是外商還是台商都能有意願的回來投資臺灣在這一方面的話我們國發會也提出了國家發展的計畫尤其在這發展的計畫裡面總體經濟發展的目標未來這4年經濟的成長率會在2.8到3.6%這邊然後失業率的話平均會在3.2到3.5%"},{"start":11452.917,"end":11455.699,"text":"核心消費物價指數上漲率平均2%以下,尤其是117年會達到人均GDP超過4萬美元本期想請問的就是,主委,你怎麼樣去設定目標,是依據什麼?"},{"start":11473.317,"end":11494.064,"text":"我們是依據這個情勢的研判跟這個情勢的研判那以目前來講我們的經濟成長今年應該是3.96到4之間失業率目前是在3.47左右那核心的通膨一直在1.8以下所以你是知道以前的數據嗎就看以前的數據就對了整個社會的不全然還有經濟的發展經濟的發展好"},{"start":11501.866,"end":11507.108,"text":"那你這因為你訂出的這些目標齁我剛才念了你訂的這些目標但是我們看到在110年到113年的時候你們的經濟成長率啊大概平均平均在這個3.3到3.7但是你看到111年到112年啊你們這個平均值啊就是數字都已經是是沒有達標的情形是不是那你又依照這個那你又訂的更高"},{"start":11527.737,"end":11537.026,"text":"那尤其是這個CPI這個部分的話你看到你的上漲率你要控制在這個1.0到1.5但是在這個111年他們都是一直下降提高啊那你都沒有控管好啊那你怎麼去定你的目標呢我們都思考過"},{"start":11546.374,"end":11558.626,"text":"目標是為了追求卓越我們不可能去定一個很消極的目標來讓國家追尋太過於樂觀嗎你這個都是以110年到113年的數據給你做看對不對在我們的經驗裡面其實我們這個東西就是要積極的努力去做了那找各種方法了"},{"start":11570.678,"end":11577.133,"text":"你的積極努力的話你有沒有想到說那整個消費市場管控上能不能達到你的目標你要怎麼做"},{"start":11578.505,"end":11599.346,"text":"這個就是我們其實我們現在定期都在看這裡面的數字的整合我們每個月都有做適度的調整那我們包括從物價的委員會裡面所以你要去因應啊物價一直飆漲你不能讓水一直漲啊我們有在因應喔所以現在的CPI不只核心喔CPI也降到了2以下了那核心CPI這一直在1.8以內"},{"start":11600.327,"end":11610.592,"text":"所以這都是主委這都給你參考的但是你要努力的去因應怎麼樣去做對不對不能隨意讓這物價一直飆你看物價一直飆這CPI物價一直飆你還是要控管住嘛那尤其是這個人均那個GDP這個部分的話你要達到4萬那到今年的話是3萬3美元那你說能夠超越日本跟韓國最好是以以色列來並駕齊驅那你的這個部分的話"},{"start":11629.761,"end":11646.765,"text":"那就要發展像賴總統講的就是半導體跟這個AI的產業因為這個是高薪的嘛你才有辦法把這個人均值提高起來那尤其是我們現在很多的製造業相關的產業他們就沒有辦法這麼高的薪水那你要怎麼去突破呢"},{"start":11648.181,"end":11656.449,"text":"我們現在的做法就是我們要盡量開創高薪的產業讓高薪的我知道我已經告訴你了對不對那從業製造業各方面的話那怎麼辦你不能全部依賴是這個半導體跟這個AI產業啊"},{"start":11665.643,"end":11683.916,"text":"經濟的成長他們是其他的像從業從事這個沒有相關的這半導體的產業的話他們是沒有辦法得到這經濟的紅利我們對於這個傳統產業我們希望他們轉型進入高質化的領域比如說像以螺絲扣件來講我們希望他進到了一定要轉型"},{"start":11685.998,"end":11688.959,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院總預算部分關於行政院總預算部分關於行政院總預算部分"},{"start":11709.588,"end":11710.669,"text":"分配不均勤來妥善處理"},{"start":11726.876,"end":11742.835,"text":"我們現在的做法是希望增加高薪就業機會之後會增加所得稅收然後我們透過這個所得稅收的增加去補助輔助的收入比較低的這個族群所以我們透過福利政策去彌補它"},{"start":11744.156,"end":11769.263,"text":"我們希望經濟成長的當下我們也不要讓這貧富差距越來越大我們一定要看看怎麼樣讓這個分配這個均不均勻的情形我們來做個應驗突破的方法好不好這要注意的那接下來本席要請教的就是因為有在提到地方的創生我們有一個戰略政策也有加速這個地方創生來的努力但是我們看到在我們地方來講134個鄉鎮"},{"start":11771.824,"end":11786.012,"text":"還有30個鄉鎮沒有提案在這提案當中我們看到就像我們趙薇所說的南部的也要加強像中部地區還有7個南部地區有19個東部有4個總共30個地區這鄉鎮還沒有提案的你們要想看看如何去輔導讓地方有特色有創造力的創生活的產業能夠去扶植他們尤其是要輔導跟協助"},{"start":11801.573,"end":11822.079,"text":"是的,我們現在會再強化這一塊我們在最新的計畫裡面就是會強化我們在福島的力量你有沒有了解他們為什麼沒有提案?提案上有什麼困難呢?你有去了解嗎?我們目前來講我們會進一步的去理解但是就我們之前的了解是"},{"start":11824.373,"end":11845.704,"text":"這個大家對於怎麼去提一個案子呢?我們後來經過輔導之後有改善那我們現在很多地方我們開始進入鄉公所、區公所的提案這很多方面有物價或者是房價、電價的問題這也是最核心的問題我們碰到一些單獨的企業就他的提案力道就會稍微弱一點所以我們現在很多地方是透過鄉鎮像獅子鄉等等這種鄉鎮來做帶動"},{"start":11848.726,"end":11875.989,"text":"那效果就有改善對,在這些有提案的在113年7月底有提案的有1192件但是有348件他們幾乎是都不提了也都測案了這個是什麼情況那個測案已經有提過測案348件佔了四分之一耶是我們有了解因為他是微型企業他原提以後在進行他的企業申請跟規劃的時候發現他的難度比較大之後他們進行測案"},{"start":11877.375,"end":11905.563,"text":"所以他整個計畫是不夠成熟自己就推薦了所以這個我們將來也會去所以你要輔導啊我們會試著去輔導改善你們會有補助、有協助他們的對不對對因為這個地方創生我們希望能夠永續傳承來發展那這樣子可以創造這個多元的經濟的模式好不好是的是的,謝謝委員主委這邊要努力一點是,是,謝謝委員謝謝李玉玲委員,謝謝好,主委請回座下一位請張嘉堅委員質詢"},{"start":11920.014,"end":11920.919,"text":"主席我想請這個主委"},{"start":11927.854,"end":11934.958,"text":"主委在我開始質詢之前我覺得真的今天應該要感謝趙偉你也要感謝趙偉因為呢真的國發會的這個管理上可能有一點點鬆散怎麼會該在這裡開會的人沒有在這裡這一點可能主委你要辛苦一點是的謝謝我們會檢討"},{"start":11951.528,"end":11966.435,"text":"主委上一週你到秘魯去參加APAC這個部長年會喔會後在記者會中喔你有講到說在與泰國、新加坡、菲律賓、日本等國家的部長交換意見還交換了這個WhatsApp的這個通訊軟體的聯絡資訊那本席當然是非常樂見說國發會與國際交流接軌不過除了這些之外主委有沒有什麼其他的收穫可以跟我們分享嗎"},{"start":11979.677,"end":12002.546,"text":"我們跟幾個國家有稍微談到就是未來的合作大概是什麼面向的合作呢?像有經濟方面的都幾乎都經濟方面的合作啦那包括一些科技上面的合作那你覺得這對台灣應該是會有大大的注意吧?會有的因為我們現在建立了更更容易接觸的管道"},{"start":12003.561,"end":12009.065,"text":"那在這一次APEC的這個閉門會議之中這個國際貨幣基金會的總裁在16號的時候他有警告說這個貿易保護主義正在削弱全球的經濟整合與貿易的成長動能"},{"start":12020.492,"end":12033.803,"text":"那大家都知道川普明年1月上臺對臺美貿易關係一定會產生影響那主委你認為整體而言川普上臺對臺灣到底是利多還是利空"},{"start":12035.638,"end":12056.047,"text":"其實我們認為利弊都存在但是以利多於弊利多於弊怎麼說呢?可以詳細的說明一下嗎?因為我們多數的產業目前是剛好跟對岸正式比較強烈的在碰撞跟競爭中因為對岸的稅按照川普的說法會苛徵60%的稅那會造成對岸的成本比較高"},{"start":12060.709,"end":12075.446,"text":"我認為是一個機會因為在上一波川普任內造成很多的企業因此離開中國到海外的發展那有一部分回到台灣回到台灣大概我們統計到到前一陣子是2.3兆所以多少是有很大的幫助的"},{"start":12075.987,"end":12089.051,"text":"那當然這個如果主委這樣說我們也是樂觀其成我們也希望臺灣的景氣可以在這個美洲貿易戰之間我們可以就是發展起來然後更加的茁壯看到您那邊也有湖北園區那這些園區我們也希望盡快能夠讓廠商進駐"},{"start":12093.613,"end":12116.708,"text":"是,就是說我們這個虎尾中科二期擴展希望主委可以大大的支持因為它目前已經完全停滯我覺得非常的可惜32.8公頃這個二期擴張完全停滯這對於整個臺灣的土地利用甚至我們產業的發展我覺得這是非常值得擔憂的所以請主委也關心好嗎好"},{"start":12118.269,"end":12143.767,"text":"對阿 因為我們也希望說不只是台積電甚至有很多想要在台灣投資的這些高科技產業就好像說他們要從中國移出的話可以考慮我們雲林中科二期阿這個包括說我們中科二期旁邊不只是那32.8公頃連結的單一地主台塘土地還有1600多公頃你要上下游整合整個產業都是非常有機會的"},{"start":12145.368,"end":12171.141,"text":"請主委特別拍時間來看吧前一陣子我有介紹我們也介紹了矽品、熱光的矽品到雲林發展是啊所以沒有它矽品已經要蓋好了它馬上要營運了它已經去了3年了它已經蓋好明年6月就要營運了它投資了1000億但這只是一個開始而已這只是一個開始希望主委可以繼續來關心我們地方那剛才有許多位委員講到中鋼"},{"start":12173.582,"end":12179.165,"text":"之前針對國發會扶植的綠能國家隊聯合再生公司結果成立之後弊案頻傳成立到目前為止虧損高達140多億國發基金投資聯合再生也準備認賠殺出聽說你們這就是填坑的基金預計聯合再生投資案國發基金大概還會再賠多少錢"},{"start":12199.654,"end":12214.884,"text":"他現在是這樣子我們當時投資的金額是價格是在13塊多目前在11塊多所以你們覺得大概還要再賠多少?如果我們能夠順利出去的話大概是賠10到20%之間那是多少錢?"},{"start":12216.121,"end":12221.103,"text":"大概是4億吧所以要再多賠44億喔?沒有沒有總共沒有沒有沒有沒有我們沒有投那麼多錢就是說這個44億4億4億聽起來像是一個冷冰冰的數字啊覺得說好像4億也沒有多少錢"},{"start":12234.308,"end":12248.366,"text":"4億很多錢好嗎那現在另外一個案子又來了國發會高副主委14號出席論壇的時候說這個國發基金準備投資一個飯工股的綠電平台想請問主委知道這個綠電平台嗎"},{"start":12250.469,"end":12265.88,"text":"這個綠電平台是這樣子我們請經濟部送行政院核定那核定之後我們就會依據國發基金的管理辦法依照行政院的核定那目前是規劃準備投資多少錢要等行政院核定"},{"start":12266.5,"end":12267.662,"text":"目前我們並沒有談到錢的部分"},{"start":12283.524,"end":12304.754,"text":"那他必須等行政院核定那據本席瞭解這計畫其實有一段時間了而且中鋼一開始是完全沒有意願一直到今年5月召開范宮古的售電公司這個研商的會議之後中鋼不斷地提出說不想參與這個售電平台的理由請問主委知道為什麼他不想參與嗎?"},{"start":12306.423,"end":12331.324,"text":"因為我們只針對這件事情開過一次會是經濟部來說明那我們請經濟部把這個案子送行所以為什麼他不願意參加呢我並不清楚他背後的原因我覺得主委應該要找出原因啊因為你不能夠國發基金然後跟經濟部逼著說大家都一定要參加呀所以現在被逼著要參加那國發基金呢你們是被逼著要投資嗎"},{"start":12332.245,"end":12358.446,"text":"它整個的目的主要是因為很多的中小型企業比較拿不到綠電它當時的就我他們的報告的內容是希望幫助中小企業能夠拿到綠電是我想你們當初成立聯合投資聯合再生也是利益良善啊但是我們現在最擔心的是綠電平台要求這國發基金國營事業都一起投資那國發基金要投資之前的審議機制是什麼"},{"start":12360.628,"end":12383.769,"text":"我們基本上是希望透過行政院的核定由行政院指定你不能什麼都推給行政院如果有審議機制那高副主委就不應該在審議之前對外說國發基金準備投資啊都還沒有審議怎麼知道就一定會過呢沒錯這個我有特別提醒他了有沒有搞錯啊你們都不用審議想投資就投資愛幹嘛幹嘛是怎麼樣"},{"start":12384.89,"end":12385.53,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12406.36,"end":12422.214,"text":"您有重責大任您要為人民的荷包把關啦不要讓這個綠電平台變成第二個聯合戰聲第二個台顏綠能好嗎好的謝謝謝謝好謝謝張家俊委員下一位質詢請葉元志委"},{"start":12433.683,"end":12443.742,"text":"我們中午不休息,會延長到諮詢結束。您好,麻煩請國會主委,劉主委,謝謝。請國會劉主委。"},{"start":12452.317,"end":12464.643,"text":"主委好委員好我們古巴基金是台積電的大股東嘛現在是有16億.53的股票對不對是的16.53億股票今年的台積電總共貢獻多少股力啊"},{"start":12465.512,"end":12483.267,"text":"今年預計會超過一百億啊超過一百億有兩百多億嗎沒有沒有一百一百幾億兩百兩百齁大概兩百億左右兩百億左右是不是所以實際上台積電對國家基金貢獻很大對陳儒今天剛剛很多委員在問國家基金很多都虧錢啊"},{"start":12484.548,"end":12500.859,"text":"那因為台積電的關係讓古巴基金能夠有剩餘啦有很大的貢獻但是我們其他的投資還有將近100億的收入對啦但是台積電是應該是貢獻最大的啦所以我覺得這個主委應該要關心台積電的發展"},{"start":12502.04,"end":12522.756,"text":"那我昨天也跟經濟部長也詢問因為台積電他是有獲得美國的66億的補助嘛美元的補助可是有要求說A16的先進製程必須要移到美國去那經濟部所有的官員都樂觀其成啊說這樣很棒主委你身為台積電大股東你的看法如何"},{"start":12523.742,"end":12539.154,"text":"就我的了解,它現在是3奈米跟4奈米嗎?那2奈米就我的了解還不會過去,因為它必須要經過實驗成功那3奈米是在原計劃裡面就會過去"},{"start":12539.634,"end":12543.898,"text":"排積電有跟我解釋,那A16是產品的部分,那產品的部分其實要看,如果他A16一般來講進到3奈米是有可能過去的。有可能過去,那你也是樂觀其成嗎?"},{"start":12556.636,"end":12574.332,"text":"倒不是樂觀其成不樂觀其成這是一個政治因素那這個屬於在美國生產的很多美國客戶的訂單會進去這個是要看他的因為他成本比較高這個的確他美國的成本比較高那那個成本如果能夠被買方接受那買方下單台積電就會出貨"},{"start":12576.133,"end":12597.129,"text":"那只要是在3奈米或是在4奈米的台積電也會出貨,因為他可以製造,他不可能不接受所以我跟你請教一下,因為本來經濟部長是講說12月的時候,台積電在美國的廠開幕會有一個完工典禮那時候經濟部長是這樣子講的,可是後來隔不久張忠謀就說沒有人要完工典禮"},{"start":12598.331,"end":12613.372,"text":"那因為你是大股東嘛對你之前有受邀嗎沒有沒有完全都沒有受邀我們是只有2月份2月10號左右會在那邊開董事會董事會可是之前有傳出完工典禮的時候有沒有說先邀請你去後來又跟你說不辦"},{"start":12614.153,"end":12630.953,"text":"之前沒有如果有會邀請我像歐洲那次德國那次就有邀請就有邀請但這次沒有邀請這次應該還沒有辦可是我們就覺得很奇怪啊為什麼部長一開始說有後來張忠謀又說沒有其中的轉折是什麼應該以台積電的聲音為主吧對為什麼那部長為什麼會說有"},{"start":12632.781,"end":12659.868,"text":"所以你從頭到尾都沒有接到要完工典禮的消息就對了沒有那經濟部告訴我們講說其實不擔心台積電有一些製程會移到美國去他們的說法是說因為台積電未來每一年都會在台灣設廠嘛每一年都會設廠然後所以我們的製程是永遠會領先美國所以不用擔心嘛是這樣告訴我們目前是這樣台積電每一年都要設廠的話那目前最近三年的規劃是什麼"},{"start":12660.865,"end":12679.983,"text":"例如說今年、明年、後年要在哪個縣市?其實我知道在高雄跟台南高雄、台南然後再來因為每一年都要設廠接下來台中也會有台中也會有所以未來三年已經都規劃好了就這三個地方主委我現在就想要跟你請教一個問題因為"},{"start":12681.664,"end":12698.381,"text":"如果台積電要在每一年都要一個設廠的話那用電一定要確保嗎?因為它用電量很高用電用水我們都有都有已經保障了都有定期在溝通啊因為之前我看您在提到核電的時候啊你有講到就是說不反對核電但是後來你又改口了"},{"start":12698.541,"end":12702.725,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":12720.382,"end":12724.945,"text":"那再來是安全無虞嗎?我們現在就是要確保用電無虞啦因為我是看到你講說不一定要用核電因為產業在乎的是有沒有電而不是什麼電然後你也有提到"},{"start":12738.554,"end":12743.637,"text":"合電合安法必須實施嗎?合電合安法必須實施嗎?合電合安法必須實施嗎?合電合安法必須實施嗎?合電合安法必須實施嗎?"},{"start":12755.004,"end":12757.165,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院地區永續發展"},{"start":12777.97,"end":12804.897,"text":"所以你能夠保證就是說不用核電的狀況下用電都沒問題這就你的了解這個部分我跟台電問過了但是台電的保證因為我沒辦法幫台電保證我只能轉達台電跟我的保證因為你是台積電大股東啦你也要站在台積電跟國家發展的角度用電的部分要說真話啦謝謝我今天對你特別好有比較好可能是昨天有覺得虧欠我我一點都不虧欠你我是等下一位委員"},{"start":12808.74,"end":12837.133,"text":"你要行個禮啊議員室慢走啊好 蔡育宇蔡育宇蔡育宇不在"},{"start":12838.288,"end":12859.553,"text":"侯孟楷侯孟楷侯孟楷不在麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍不在蘇清玄蘇玉玄蘇清玄不在陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇陳"},{"start":12868.413,"end":12880.947,"text":"外、區、經營發言完畢。詢答結束。所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面諮詢及未及答覆部分請相當單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":12883.257,"end":12899.265,"text":"各位同仁,針對預算案如有修正動議或相關提案,注意,請於11月27日下午5點之前,送經濟委員會辦公室一例後續會診,預示不再收案。"},{"start":12907.918,"end":12923.614,"text":"如果以及會診之後請國會說相關的同仁能夠盡速去跟各位委員做一些的說明跟溝通本日討論事項所列的預算案詢答結束另外定期啊定期可能"},{"start":12925.126,"end":12939.858,"text":"應該是兩週之後兩週之後下次我當召委輪值召委的時候我會審查預算即時再請同仁務必要出席並定期繼續進行審查現在 三位"}]}},{"id":"157338","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157338","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375244b982669c77fd69868a4ad55ac2447b74ba16637283b6cc94885ffc673e66ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:01:01 - 12:09:27","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T12:01:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T12:09:27+08:00","duration":506,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.14034375,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.99659375,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.77284375,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.257843750000001,"end":8.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.805968750000002,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.059093750000002,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.168468750000002,"end":11.438468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.079718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.079718750000001,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.41721875,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.41284375,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":25.360343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.68096875,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.688468750000002,"end":49.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.40284375,"end":50.892218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.60096875,"end":52.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.423468750000005,"end":60.375968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.304718750000006,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.835968750000006,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.494093750000005,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.95284375,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.92721875000001,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.88471875,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.96471875,"end":99.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.98159375,"end":100.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.33596875,"end":100.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.36971875,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.77471875,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.92659375000001,"end":101.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.20909375000001,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.56159375,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.80971875,"end":144.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.72034375000001,"end":125.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.11409375,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.97034375,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.42159375,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.06659375,"end":151.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.50096875,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.83409375000002,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.57659375,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.54409375,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.82909375,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.65721875000003,"end":205.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.68534375000002,"end":216.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.21221875,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.31284375,"end":223.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.32971875,"end":221.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.08471875,"end":226.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.75971875000002,"end":223.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.91971875000002,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.02096875,"end":226.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.07159375,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.10534375,"end":226.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.74659375000002,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.31909375,"end":237.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.93909375,"end":238.39034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.12471875000003,"end":237.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.19221875000002,"end":239.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.97221875000002,"end":247.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.98471875,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.97159375,"end":246.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.78971875000002,"end":248.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.04284375,"end":255.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.16096875000002,"end":248.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.99534375000002,"end":277.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.08471875000004,"end":295.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.85159375,"end":284.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.44221875,"end":284.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","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Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T11:50:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T12:00:51+08:00","duration":592,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.26659375,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.278468750000002,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.93221875,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.67784375,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.80409375,"end":20.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.07409375,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.16221875,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.21659375,"end":31.570343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.941593750000003,"end":33.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.30409375,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.41784375,"end":39.822218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.463468750000004,"end":41.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.98221875,"end":44.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.71596875,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.43284375,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.23409375,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.149093750000006,"end":54.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.46534375,"end":57.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.485968750000005,"end":60.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.915968750000005,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.025343750000005,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.10534375,"end":64.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.03346875,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.45096875,"end":71.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.07034375,"end":72.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.16721875,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.72346875000001,"end":90.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.63284375,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.82659375,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.86846875,"end":96.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.72471875000001,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.27659375,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.93034375,"end":106.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.37721875000001,"end":106.78221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.17034375,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.25471875000001,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.72971875,"end":125.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.07034375,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.95596875,"end":129.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.18784375,"end":132.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.17471875,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.50784375,"end":139.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.90784375,"end":142.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.81034375000002,"end":154.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.59846875000002,"end":148.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.43284375000002,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.89221875,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.28409375,"end":162.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.40221875,"end":162.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.48659375,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.20346875,"end":166.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.46471875,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.28284375,"end":171.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.35034375,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.00409375,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.32846875,"end":176.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.04971875,"end":178.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.88909375,"end":184.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.98096875000002,"end":190.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.90471875,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.88721875000002,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.23284375,"end":194.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.75159375,"end":195.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.93284375000002,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.51471875000001,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.50971875000002,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.58471875,"end":210.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.71534375000002,"end":223.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.67534375000002,"end":224.06346875000003},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INTERVIEWER審查委員王偉源等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員王偉源等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員王偉源等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":34.352,"end":39.077,"text":"文修正草案案。四十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條文修正草案案。五十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":58.507,"end":61.97,"text":"委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":77.602,"end":83.423,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。四、сколько審查委員馬文君等16人�"},{"start":107.268,"end":109.049,"text":"委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":134.834,"end":141.758,"text":"確實就是像委員他所提起的,很多人就是歡樂說過去五十年是為了做農地,現在又繼續為了做農地,是不是我的這個"},{"start":147.062,"end":148.023,"text":"條文修正草案案案件 。"},{"start":167.503,"end":174.744,"text":"文修正草案案例如我開發工業區或是個人在鄉村區旁邊我有藍色的地可以統出來,這樣可以種出來建地,當然可以透過這個方法,若不透過農地重圍,農村社區重圍,它可以蓋一些建地。這個過去開的計畫時代,確實就是這樣,但是這個計畫我們在這個規定當中,我們參加讀取計畫的改良,讓地方政府可以有"},{"start":196.027,"end":207.873,"text":"全體過去的鄉村地區居民可以讓有一些土地開發幾位的這個權益。來。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂多在這個時間頂多靠這個權益。頂"},{"start":224.722,"end":232.23,"text":"所以為什麼過去,過去是不關關的好壞啦,因為開的結尾就是一個抹掉,現在變成說不是關的問題,是說我們是在這個完喻的正頭,主委,可以開始做這個規劃,這樣的話呢,可以讓這個鄉村地區,因為我們這個政客所在,很多我們在說的,人口多,因為土地"},{"start":248.655,"end":255.702,"text":"所以你現在說的就是北省的黨員覺得說有關的沒關的,如果中央要做的跟黨員政府要做的,未來這個地還要多久?因為北省就是反而說,跟我的地,"},{"start":267.112,"end":269.473,"text":"事由．審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":283.058,"end":288.18,"text":"因為這段時間可能沒辦法解釋得很清楚,是最主要北省最反落的,我們盡量去解釋給地方可以去選擇,去讓這裡的農民說,尤其我擔憂的就是說,不管我們有贏或沒有贏,像剛才蘇說的,有四、五個關,"},{"start":310.779,"end":323.616,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":330.23,"end":330.39,"text":"委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":345.835,"end":346.116,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":363.857,"end":369.381,"text":"因為他們本來在那四年間就已經把他們的國土計畫、管制的國土計畫都已經送來中央啊。所以我們都可以對照,說他們動車的時候跟現在的功能分區圖對還是不對。這樣補充我直接來請教一下,他們這三四的管制、兩三的管制,那電池九四位三十五號的高,你、我們"},{"start":389.776,"end":392.502,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":398.649,"end":418.759,"text":"管理會合法嗎?會太順嗎?會太順嗎?我要跟委員講的部分就是說因為整個全國的國土計畫它就是在限制說全國譬如說農地它的上下限是多少那如果你已經交上來的話呢我們就可以先做分這個管理譬如說你在農地多少、建地多少可以做一個比較好配合國土計畫配合中台的這個公共建設那它如果不夠的話就變成它們不參與這是一種公法"},{"start":428.504,"end":428.704,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":451.67,"end":456.475,"text":"那一併要不要拿掉的部分的話就是必須要配套措施也必須要每個縣市政府都同意要不然我們會對不起已經送上國土計畫功能分區圖到內政部來審查了這些縣市政府因為他們也很辛苦他們的公聽會、說明會、演講等等也都是上百上千場的因為北京我現在就是說"},{"start":473.43,"end":473.85,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":500.583,"end":502.585,"text":"所以我跟吳孟說,我們是不是擬一個,要不然擬,不是搖搖無恥說一直擬、一直擬是不是要有一個牽制,在這兩三個月要如何處理才是最重要啦。不然說擬的時候,你我想法都一樣,如果擬,因為擬不完我們也沒辦法去完成"},{"start":525.623,"end":525.903,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":542.972,"end":543.973,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文宣告"},{"start":558.56,"end":566.486,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條"},{"start":586.762,"end":586.903,"text":"探討一詳。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157324","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157324","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637521870ac9e39333d8c868a4ad55ac2447b64aaf8aafe3010ccab4f16a3dcf70bd65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:35:40 - 11:44:07","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T11:35:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T11:44:07+08:00","duration":507,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.37596875,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.700343750000002,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.822218750000001,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.84221875,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.977218750000006,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.02784375,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.11534375,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.34221875,"end":70.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.56846875000001,"end":80.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.09846875000001,"end":87.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.70909375000001,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.56096875,"end":99.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.08284375000001,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.36534375,"end":142.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.50659375,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.06409375,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.32971875,"end":185.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.36471875,"end":220.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.33409375000002,"end":220.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.07659375,"end":221.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.97096875000003,"end":240.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.48284375000003,"end":265.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.81221875,"end":265.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.82909375,"end":313.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.80596875000003,"end":279.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.53159375,"end":279.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.78784375000004,"end":329.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.70096875,"end":375.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.97221875,"end":405.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.62159375000005,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.02659375,"end":407.17409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.13596875,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.96534375000005,"end":449.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.91846875000005,"end":468.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.78471875,"end":473.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.45971875000004,"end":471.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.18909375000004,"end":486.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":474.80909375000005,"end":475.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":487.31346875,"end":499.49721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.82221875000005,"end":501.18471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":500.69534375,"end":502.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.64034375000006,"end":503.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.53409375,"end":507.20909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.181,"end":8.822,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":31.071,"end":43.903,"text":"包括本來我們知道的是新北、桃園、苗栗、台中、彰化、南投、雲林跟台東都還沒有繳交國土功能的分區圖,但是現在是不是也有最新的剩下四個縣市沒有繳交,是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":47.709,"end":69.959,"text":"當然目前來講我們在持續的詢問包含還有上次這個公聽會大概新北、桃園、彰化、苗栗、臺東大概都有說明他們在年底前會提送但是這個都要等到12月才有辦法確認如果到時候沒有送接我們可能就會再繼續溝通再繼續希望他們趕快提送"},{"start":70.589,"end":71.009,"text":"條文審查委員"},{"start":92.044,"end":97.028,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢,我想委員非常了解這樣狀況,確實沒有錯,現在國土計畫法仍然有兩個到三個縣市沒有告訴我們確切要送上來的日期,那如果沒有送的話會變成在我們國土計畫法裡面有一條叫做一併公告,"},{"start":107.737,"end":119.229,"text":"一併公告到目前為止我們所詢問如果法治單位就是國土功能分區如果我們一併公告的話那大概這一條就沒有辦法那個完全適用那我們就會碰到必須要修法要不要延遲的這個問題但是我們認為說如果延期或是延遲而沒有其他相關的配套措施的話只是把問題無限制往後延"},{"start":128.699,"end":135.02,"text":"無限制往後延,不管你是兩年、四年、六年,或者是甚至有其他的相關的狀況,永遠在沒有辦法處理的很好的狀況之下,往後延也沒有辦法解決問題。這是我們現在最大的關注點。謝謝部長說明。其實因為2020年已經延過一次了,其實國土計畫法不能一延再延,大家也都知道。那大家也知道國土計畫的重要性,希望可以趕快的進入這個永續發展的討論。"},{"start":156.224,"end":165.582,"text":"那我覺得現在最重要的問題還是說如果真的分批上路了會不會造成各縣市有標準不一的狀況那是不是會衍生更多的問題"},{"start":167.695,"end":185.14,"text":"第一、如果已經送上來的15個縣市的話我們現在當然都是在審議當中沒有問題那沒有送上來部分的話我們目前比較大的困擾就是說如果未來有國土計畫需要審議有跨縣市的話我們只能去參照他們已經送到內政部的國土計畫"},{"start":186.34,"end":186.84,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":202.349,"end":204.691,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第十五條條文修正草案．立法院"},{"start":221.301,"end":226.246,"text":"這也是我很擔心的,我不希望說最後因為有一些縣市沒有繳交然後變成是該區的民眾反而權益有受損的情況。所以這也是我覺得現在必須要鼓勵所有的縣市在統一的時間內大家一起好好的用統一的標準來做討論,非常重要的關鍵。"},{"start":240.538,"end":244.001,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":265.859,"end":268.16,"text":"非常謝謝這個黃委員的這個垂詢其實是這樣子前幾天有某一個縣市地方政府他們就提到叫TDRTDR就是我們把它翻譯成農業發展權開發權的概念它是在移轉的是一種變成開發"},{"start":283.206,"end":286.567,"text":"當農地變成是開發的時候我相信以農民他們的專注是在農業發展對於土地開發者用盡各種的手段手法要讓他做開發移轉的時候其實農地或者是農民本身他的權益反而是受限的所以我為什麼提出他是一個不合時宜的概念第一個他是1981年美國所提出來的"},{"start":304.472,"end":306.055,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":321.135,"end":321.875,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":342.625,"end":344.146,"text":"審查委員宋初芳等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":364.239,"end":368.401,"text":"而沒有辦法真正的大規模運用到我們像現在在推動的國土計畫當中所以我們會認為說未來只是會置私欲焚而且越來越複雜化然後不利於國土計畫的推動好 謝謝部長說明我覺得在這邊還是要再次的說清楚如果這個農業開發權下去是不是最後有利的是財團最後有利的並不是農民"},{"start":388.149,"end":389.149,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":408.194,"end":421.79,"text":"我想黃委員非常了解我們對於青農或者是對於這個有志發展農業的這個朋友我們一定會盡我們全力來幫忙跟農業部一起來推動但是我們也不希望說這種TDR的概念被無限上綱而且轉變成說所謂的叫特別犧牲的補償條款"},{"start":426.175,"end":445.769,"text":"其實特別犧牲的部分看起來好像是對農民特別犧牲而且變成是對農地的一個限制但是特別犧牲這個名詞使用在TDR的概念上面剛剛好相反反而是把農地這個判的完全無法動所以我才說它是變成非常僵固的一個土地轉移的概念好 謝謝部長那之後當然我還是希望農業部也有來"},{"start":450.793,"end":467.392,"text":"對,好,那我希望農業部就是你們現在還是有努力的要做一些配套的措施,包括農業堆疊式集覆的架構,還有農政資源的分級投入,這個我希望你們要再更積極的來宣導以及把你們現在所有手上的這些資訊都要讓農民知道好嗎?"},{"start":468.814,"end":470.095,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":487.455,"end":490.977,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"}]}},{"id":"157323","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157323","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752af02edb878c72721868a4ad55ac2447b64aaf8aafe3010cc97002103209a870d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:25:29 - 11:35:31","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T11:25:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T11:35:31+08:00","duration":602,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.48596875,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.57784375,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.189093750000001,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.41971875,"end":39.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.02659375,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.07721875,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.96721875,"end":29.984093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.53534375,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.45909375,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.002843750000004,"end":45.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.20096875,"end":49.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.08221875,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.36471875,"end":63.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.73409375000001,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.20159375,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.87659375,"end":85.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.06159375,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.21346875,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.35534375,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.76846875000001,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.78534375000001,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.05096875000001,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.02846875,"end":97.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.75409375000001,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.07471875,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.14221875000001,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.88409375,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.27221875000001,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.96409375,"end":108.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.36409375000001,"end":110.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.13596875,"end":134.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.70784375000001,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.14909375000002,"end":136.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.83659375000002,"end":137.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.30471875,"end":138.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.37221875,"end":138.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.49034375000002,"end":138.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.50721875000002,"end":138.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.57471875000002,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.26659375,"end":139.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.44784375,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.30409375000002,"end":155.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.88846875000002,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.04034375,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.52846875,"end":166.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.68846875,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.73909375000002,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.42221875,"end":170.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.87346875,"end":181.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.62284375000002,"end":188.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.69346875000002,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.84471875000003,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.02971875,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.37471875000003,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.12096875,"end":235.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.58909375000002,"end":238.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.78721875000002,"end":237.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.50409375,"end":241.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.68096875,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.67221875,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.97534375,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.67471875,"end":255.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.68721875000003,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.98659375,"end":261.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.08284375,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.03096875,"end":272.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.56659375000004,"end":286.5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所以其實現有的農地它未來還是可以變更還是可以蓋農舍然後還什麼幾乎權力沒有特別的改變啊?是。是不是?還有放寬一些權力。對嘛其實沒有特別的改變嘛齁。是。"},{"start":124.601,"end":137.767,"text":"對阿,但為什麼沒有特別改變,會造成大家好像很緊張,好像是劃入了農業區之後呢,就永無翻身。我覺得這點要說清楚。"},{"start":140.488,"end":163.702,"text":"我家也是有農地的啊,對不對,也是都很擔心啊,大家都知道我來自台中縣鄉下啊,大家以後未來農地啊永遠都永無翻身,人活著就是一個希望嘛。應該是這麼說,很多人都是這一次會提出來是因為他們期待農地的財產價值要更高。"},{"start":164.605,"end":167.227,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":181.135,"end":184.577,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。五、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。〉"},{"start":209.329,"end":232.97,"text":"國土計畫法只是在負責地方的國土計畫還有中央的國土計畫我們怎麼樣做比較好的國土計畫不要讓它變成破碎的然後損害到國土的永續發展對部長我覺得這個說這些都對啦但你說去什麼辦說明會我說真的啦能跟多少人說啦農民的最主要的管道是什麼"},{"start":234.161,"end":235.001,"text":"農會等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":254.687,"end":257.928,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":283.658,"end":289.844,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":304.434,"end":319.4,"text":"因為他是舉一個農地出租做光電板的案例用這樣的概念去那其實這在這整個全世界來講他們所引用的不管是英國或是後來提到了美國其實他都是一個"},{"start":320.34,"end":337.615,"text":"很早期提出來但是後來都已經修正或限縮甚至大部分都以都市計畫區為主就是因為在過程當中已經發現諸多不合理的現象或被扭曲的現象所以在台灣從來都不是以這樣的概念"},{"start":338.275,"end":339.056,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":354.012,"end":375.889,"text":"講這麼多齁,你講的都對啦,但你講這些農民就聽不懂了啦。是。對不對?齁,我必須要很、很好,他就聽不懂了啦。那我一個很簡單的概念啦。都市計畫法裡面,你也有繳貸金也有什麼的。這個概念我不、我不認為概念是錯的啦齁。但,四十萬,我跟你講,以後變成農地草作欸。"},{"start":376.95,"end":396.218,"text":"我只要是農地都40萬我去買那個根本很難耕種的那我每年都40萬我跟你講我比放在銀行的定存還好欸阿這樣子變成農地的炒作捏這個反而是不對的捏是不是這樣事實上在美國的確也是發生這樣的問題我們不管美國啦台灣會不會這樣啦"},{"start":397.816,"end":400.177,"text":"議員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":414.541,"end":439.514,"text":"自主耕作自主以後去納入開發的這樣一個權利。重點是你要跟農民講阿如果這樣的話人家便宜就來買你的農地連農地現在沒有價值結果每年40萬結果錢被誰賺走這個才是重點在美國就是野方財團就直接去收購等於如果這樣的話農民會損失很多欸40萬欸我比放在銀行定存還高欸對不對我個人覺得這個是不大對的欸"},{"start":443.156,"end":461.105,"text":"對,跟我們的立法宗旨跟農業部要保護農民的是完全不對的捏我想接下來我們會整理一些有關這一方面的這個不管是他們提到了國外的還是國內在相關的不是接下來啦主席不好意思喔不是接下來今天就要討論了你今天就要把這些問題講給大家聽了欸部長"},{"start":463.727,"end":470.653,"text":"財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院財政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草"},{"start":489.13,"end":495.758,"text":"桃園市桃竹苗這個矽谷大開發也沒有農地或者農地會變成建地或工業用地那這些貸金要補助給誰按照他們所謂的農業發展權的概念要補助給農地很多的地方那怎麼補助過去按照剛剛我們署長所說的在美國這樣子的一個方法叫TDR"},{"start":508.232,"end":520.362,"text":"這個TDR是高達一千英畝以上才要做TDR台灣哪有那個土地是有一千英畝大概跟宮廷差不多所以引用這個概念是一個非常落伍的概念何況這個概念是1981年提出來如果有的話現在美國就如火如荼在推動"},{"start":523.985,"end":526.526,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":554.352,"end":555.134,"text":"如果這個要入法是在國土計畫法嗎?還是在農業部的相關的條例?"},{"start":561.889,"end":569.314,"text":"我們的行政單位沒有提這樣子的一個修正法律我知道啦對行政單位沒有放在國土計畫法但是還沒有到我們委員會來對我個人認為啦如果要真的要這個農業權生存權的概念其實這個是要農業部他如何去去輔導農民或什麼應該是入在農業部的相關法令而不是入在區域計畫區域計畫法就是一個區域計畫的精神跟這個是不相干的啦我個人是這樣認為啦"},{"start":590.848,"end":597.772,"text":"修法也要修對地方啦 對不對部長我同意委員的看法好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"157322","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157322","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375265c0d8278f98332c868a4ad55ac2447b64aaf8aafe3010cc40a1818b981201f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:17:32 - 11:25:21","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T11:17:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T11:25:21+08:00","duration":469,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":2.9334687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.84471875,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.746593750000002,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.502218750000004,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.687843750000006,"end":63.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.11346875000001,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.25909375,"end":85.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.45221875,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.10971875,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.05846875,"end":98.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.63159375000001,"end":112.73909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.95846875000001,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.27784375,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.17159375000001,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.49596875,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.69784375,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.94534375,"end":146.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.27409375000002,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.00784375,"end":154.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.42471875,"end":193.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.27909375000002,"end":194.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.32534375,"end":203.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.79659375,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.93159375000002,"end":210.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.86721875,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.47034375,"end":247.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.24971875000003,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.12284375000002,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.96659375000002,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.35659375,"end":294.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.68534375,"end":299.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.71409375,"end":300.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.77721875000003,"end":314.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.29409375,"end":326.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.49471875,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.02596875,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.19409375000004,"end":341.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.95221875000004,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.40596875,"end":365.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.08784375000005,"end":369.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.93096875000003,"end":373.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.68596875000003,"end":399.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.22159375,"end":409.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.15721875,"end":407.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.16971875,"end":431.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.22534375000004,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.03096875,"end":434.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.83221875000004,"end":440.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.80596875000003,"end":444.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.37096875000003,"end":449.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.49659375000005,"end":463.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.13159375000004,"end":463.48596875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":1.014,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12.426,"end":30.956,"text":"第一件事情要先跟你說明一下最近有一件新聞事件引起大眾嘩然全國矚目的案件就是勞動部北區分署的謝分署長針對有職場霸凌的案件導致優秀員工輕生這件事是全國矚目"},{"start":32.717,"end":60.916,"text":"造成目前的狀況是勞動部何部長自行要宣布請辭下臺卓永泰院長道歉並要求各部會首長徹底清查機關內部不容許再有霸凌的行為以及如果現在有在處理的行為有在進行中的霸凌的案件必須要一週之內要有回覆請問部長有沒有開始遵照卓院長的吩咐來辦理那進度如何需要多久時間來統整這樣的資料"},{"start":62.817,"end":77.942,"text":"那我本席是希望說,我不好意思,本席希望說之後如果有審查預算的部會,是不是也可以提供相關的這些的資料給本委員會的委員來做這個,來做了解,謝謝部長。"},{"start":79.538,"end":79.658,"text":"條文審查委員"},{"start":98.541,"end":100.563,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":121.325,"end":142.724,"text":"好所以部長這個相關的資料你會統整給本委會的委員是否可以請張委員再描述清楚是什麼樣子的相關資料就是說如果現在到底有多少的霸凌的案件處理的狀況如何那有沒有辦法就是現在處理的一些案件有沒有辦法在一個禮拜就是說跟本委會說這些案件都有處理然後跟當事人有做一樣的溝通"},{"start":144.224,"end":157.37,"text":"我跟委員報告這不是我提議這是卓榮泰院長的意見我跟委員報告要提供這個資料並不難但是我們希望能夠保護各自可以嗎可以沒問題那第二個我還是要跟院長跟部長報告"},{"start":158.37,"end":159.411,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":173.387,"end":178.27,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員"},{"start":194.312,"end":195.994,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文"},{"start":210.911,"end":231.176,"text":"功能區分圖公佈,區域計畫法不再適用。我想要針對在申請中的非都市開發的許可案件,在國土計畫上路後應該如何處理?是否在受理中可以准許,還是全部一律要駁回?這是一個很重要的問題。"},{"start":232.156,"end":250.064,"text":"那還有就是說針對現行區域計畫非都市土地開發許可,最終可受理案件的時間以及審議的做法,中央有沒有一致對外公布的一個方法,那提供地方政府一個明確的執行依據。我是不是請我們署長跟您回應一下這個情緒。好,謝謝。好,請吳署長。"},{"start":251.064,"end":276.448,"text":"好,感謝委員的垂詢。那其實我們在這個執行過程當中,其實很早就思考過這個問題。所以我們大概有把這個開發許可的審議案件的一個銜接。第一個就是說,它已經這個審議中它已經開發許可已經有調整,它補正期限或展延次數的跟檢疫流程這部分,我們其實之前都已經有開會跟地方政府有描述過。"},{"start":277.048,"end":284.231,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文審查委員吳琪"},{"start":299.798,"end":304.139,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":326.727,"end":341.297,"text":"我希望請教一下最後提出的受理時間大概是什麼時候?受理時間現在是這樣因為我們本來跟各縣市政府談有些部分縣市政府也希望能夠定出一個期限但是我們開了兩次會議以後因為各縣市政府的量能"},{"start":342.337,"end":350.643,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":369.977,"end":373.72,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":400.307,"end":406.411,"text":"成果向民眾先做溝通跟說明,降低民眾對國土保育區畫色的成果的疑慮。」"},{"start":416.198,"end":417.94,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":435.435,"end":462.306,"text":"這個部分都是看各部會能夠提供的狀況,所以我這個部分是不是把我們過去有所做的這些都提供一些報告給委員。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,那時間的關係,最後我還是要,本席還是要建議中央要完善國土計畫的相關執法的相關的制定,然後中央要跟各部會溝通,也要跟加強跟民眾宣導國土計畫法上路,民眾的權益有完全的保障在行推動。好,謝謝,謝謝部長、署長。"}]}},{"id":"157321","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157321","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752827e71461202223c868a4ad55ac2447b64aaf8aafe3010cc73a7b2597b81be3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"11:08:39 - 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Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T11:08:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T11:17:21+08:00","duration":522,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.650343750000001,"end":7.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.665968750000001,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.62784375,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.19659375,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":35.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.603468750000005,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.29659375000001,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.540968750000005,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.659093750000004,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.81096875,"end":59.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.51534375000001,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.11346875000001,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.08596875,"end":134.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.35534375,"end":139.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.92471875,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.05971875,"end":142.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.46721875,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.00534375,"end":219.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.08034375,"end":387.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.93659375000004,"end":395.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.98596875000004,"end":397.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.28534375000004,"end":407.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.44409375000004,"end":412.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.84409375,"end":414.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.17284375,"end":436.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.02596875,"end":483.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.24221875,"end":492.32534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.49409375000005,"end":499.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.15971875,"end":507.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.96846875000006,"end":517.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.0678437500001,"end":520.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.4897187500001,"end":521.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.663,"end":6.625,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14.744,"end":16.105,"text":"國土計畫一定要準備好就上路!"},{"start":35.78,"end":37.242,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":55.362,"end":66.705,"text":"我們全力把它準備好然後一定會上路我是覺得我們這樣講都太空泛了所以我自己把它分析成三個從形式和實質我來跟部長就教我認為國土計畫什麼時候叫做準備好了"},{"start":73.427,"end":88.148,"text":"第一、形式上形式上是各個地方政府是不是把他的區域的功能劃分表已經交上來了這形式嘛很清楚各個縣市如果都交上來了那至少地方政府有態度了這形式第二、實質上來講"},{"start":89.89,"end":112.083,"text":"那所有地方政府送上來的國土功能分區圖中央是不是審議完成?審議完成這當然非常重要這實質啊還有最後就是中央的所有的相關的執法是不是已經訂定公佈了我認為這個形式、實質、三要件如果都完成了那我們就可以說國土計畫是準備好了部長你同意我這個標準嗎?"},{"start":115.386,"end":139.161,"text":"謝謝委員我想非常同意那我要不要回答這三個問題可以啊那我現在就是要問你那你覺得這三項現在都進行到哪裡地方政府現在有八個縣市地方政府還沒有繳交但是在上次我們就在本委員會在講的時候呢已經有五個地方政府呢他們確定12月底要繳交那國土工人分區審議圖我們現在正在如火如荼的展開現在已經完成四到五個是嗎"},{"start":140.101,"end":140.761,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":155.486,"end":155.786,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":173.392,"end":188.485,"text":"審議中的其實也還沒有全部審議完成但執法也就是中央應該完成的部分你是斬釘截鐵保證年底你說我們全部的相關執法其實會完成所以三個要件剛剛裡面其實有兩個還沒有完成部長那我們現在到底可以說國土計畫法"},{"start":194.13,"end":209.094,"text":"已經準備好了嗎?國土計畫法真正要一併公告實施是制定在於明年的五月一號所以到明年五月一號之前還有將近七個月的時間有關送上來的國土功能的分區審議的部分其實我們都能夠掌握狀況要審議完成其實我覺得對我們的政府來講不是困擾"},{"start":218.456,"end":219.977,"text":"我相信其實大家都是贊成要有國土計畫的因為台灣就這麼小我們的每一塊土地每一吋土地其實都應該依照它的效能"},{"start":238.49,"end":239.291,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":258.812,"end":279.204,"text":"好的國土計畫法是就像人的身體嗎?頭就是扮演頭,手就是扮演手,腳就是扮演腳。那如果每個地方都可以分配好的話,其實是可以解決最多問題並且發揮最大戰力啊。比如說我來舉例,我在總質詢的時候就有說新北市其實是有一個礦業用地到現在都沒有辦法解決的問題啊。"},{"start":281.825,"end":297.491,"text":"當年的礦業用地在現在早就已經不出產煤不出產金不出產其他的狀況之後他的地幕還是是屬於礦業用地所以不能夠使用啊上面連房子老舊翻修都沒有辦法用那這要怎麼處理坦白說沒有辦法處理"},{"start":298.871,"end":321.209,"text":"唯一的處理方式就是最好就是跟著這次的國土計畫法一併修整那我們就有機會重新利用編整這個土地這就是新北市的礦業用地要能夠解決最好的一次機會這也是剛剛原民會在報告的時候原住民用地的最好的解決機會嘛所以原住民保留地對不起原住民保留地所以在這樣的狀況下"},{"start":322.19,"end":322.75,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":340.16,"end":352.97,"text":"因為他說二橋地區以前是農牧區啊現在要改成農業區啊他的文字叫做什麼?文字叫做我們這個已經無法耕作的田地劃入國土計畫法盲二而且限制更多而且永遠不能改國土計畫法不應該綁死農民新北市政府說承諾會轉達給中央並辦理會刊這不是已經說過很多次了首先"},{"start":363.098,"end":385.372,"text":"不可能是永遠不能更改每五年就會有一次做整體的通盤調整嘛第二你做了農業區你可以有的補助和使用方式其實也有它相對好的機會但這些訊息都沒有辦法達到傳遞到下面這已經太慢了所以現在的狀況是什麼你回來看我們的銀哥為什麼他們會抗議我覺得他們抗議也是有道理啊"},{"start":386.592,"end":395.116,"text":"來,前面啦!前面啦!這個地方我們的規定是如果一個城鎮周圍都被農地包圍那理論上它要變成是什麼?我們這個地方這個地方本來周圍都是農二的它包圍起來這塊粉紅色是什麼?它編列是農四這就是我現在的英哥可是英哥的旁邊一樣是都被農地包圍的農一跟農二這個聚落你知道它編成什麼嗎?編成乘二之一"},{"start":415.336,"end":434.35,"text":"兩塊是哪裡?這是哪裡?這是桃園所以對農民來講他就是我哪有什麼新北跟桃園這樣的界線這是你行政區的界線事實上就是我眼睛一望過去都是同一片土地都是在做作物然後中間有兩撮放房子的地方為什麼我是農事為什麼他是乘二之一"},{"start":437.159,"end":458.877,"text":"新態上就不能夠理解也不能夠接受啊。這是為什麼?這個上一次在總質詢的時候院長跟部長也有答覆嘛。其實就是各地方政府的標準不一。所以要拿到中央來好好審議。讓各地方政府所訂出來東西要能夠標準一致。部長我們的理解應該是這樣沒有錯誤吧?完全正確。"},{"start":459.657,"end":465.2,"text":"所以我們的要求是他必須要有足夠的審議時間是讓國土功能分區的劃分標準要全國一致才不會到剛剛在同一個地方看過去的土地桃園跟英格蘭感受完全不一樣啊並且那四個城市還沒有交的四個縣市還沒有交的部長"},{"start":481.408,"end":505.5,"text":"你覺得他們什麼時候會交?他們為什麼不交?他們在什麼狀況下會交?不然我們就全部都停啦!我希望不是政治上的理由啦齁。看起來大家都會支持國土計畫這樣的方向。那如果大家願意讓我們的國土真的是在永續發展上面可以好好來談的話,其實有很多溝通的空間。那不管是藍綠的委員都有要求說我們內政部呢要多做溝通,我們也願意多做溝通。就是算再溝通30場、50場、100場我們都願意。"},{"start":508.161,"end":509.283,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具"}]}},{"id":"157327","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157327","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752692888304a241f87868a4ad55ac2447b64aaf8aafe3010cc198a39e653668eca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"11:44:21 - 11:50:51","影片長度":"00:06:30","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T11:44:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T11:50:51+08:00","duration":390,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":2.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.03471875,"end":3.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.805968750000002,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.852218750000002,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.88596875,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.40909375,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.062843750000003,"end":21.141593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.664718750000002,"end":28.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.54971875,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.203468750000003,"end":30.625343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.06409375,"end":34.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.40534375,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.71659375,"end":49.930343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.30159375,"end":59.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.56596875,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.40909375,"end":72.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.08284375000001,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.02596875,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.54034375,"end":91.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.64096875,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.63159375000001,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.37721875000001,"end":115.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.65846875000001,"end":140.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.97096875,"end":141.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.59534375,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.53221875,"end":173.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.69971875000002,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.27221875,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.41534375,"end":192.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.70971875,"end":201.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.78846875000002,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.90596875,"end":224.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.02534375000002,"end":225.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.56096875,"end":245.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.96721875000003,"end":246.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.08096875,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.08034375000003,"end":257.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.83034375,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.15909375,"end":263.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.09096875,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.28846875,"end":273.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.68034375,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.64971875000003,"end":281.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.48909375,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.43159375000005,"end":298.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.08971875000003,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.25846875,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.80159375,"end":311.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.22346875,"end":307.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.38721875000005,"end":319.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.18346875000003,"end":321.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.71471875000003,"end":326.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.89971875000003,"end":333.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.13471875000005,"end":342.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.20096875,"end":346.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.77846875,"end":346.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.79534375000003,"end":347.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.89659375,"end":356.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.70096875,"end":367.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.04096875000005,"end":377.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.74409375000005,"end":386.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.10096875000005,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.97846875000005,"end":390.97409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":1.09,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文宣告"},{"start":12.076,"end":22.442,"text":"國土計畫法是以計畫引導我們整個國土的發展嗎?我們計畫的目標是什麼?就是希望能夠讓我們的土地安全、有序、和諧的發展下去嗎?對不對?不然我們建戶哪用不顧民怨、一意孤行?部長覺得還有機會有序跟和諧嗎?"},{"start":41.402,"end":59.951,"text":"面對國土計畫法只是說政府每次都是依法行政依法行政,那我們目標要如期的上路。如果我們內政部真的這麼認真執行依法行政,當時應該就好好的監督我們委員會來編列預算的部分,不會造成那麼多的糾紛了。那在這,重點就是要兩個問題,要跟部長來討論。"},{"start":63.112,"end":91.701,"text":"等於是各縣市政府不公平的部分不定農因農惡的畫色的爭議對各縣市都有不公平的情況,不定我怎麼認為?平東縣目前農地將近7萬公頃,在全國各縣市中排行第四,若按照我們中央的分區建議,未來國土計畫法實施之後,營農業面積應該是4萬公頃,最後它就花4千多公頃,將近說得到十分之一,然後我們中央要核准。"},{"start":92.771,"end":100.217,"text":"事由．審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":115.709,"end":140.134,"text":"我講政府為了要永續的推展農業,我們認為保留優良的農地就能夠來達到。但是部長,其實你忘記了一件事,就是農民未來到底有沒有體力來耕作?他有沒有意願繼續來耕作?我想不是把土地化作農一、農二之後就可以達到永續農業的目標。我想國土計畫法要能夠落實,一定要中央地方充分的來溝通,而且還要有相關的配套措施。"},{"start":141.687,"end":159.989,"text":"那我想況且立法院預算中心的這個中央政府總預算的整體評估報導也指出我們內政部應該定的這個九項執法年底才能夠完成我想將十十幾公告的這個國土功能分區土的期限由四年延到六年就是希望能夠守護民眾的這個權益"},{"start":161.411,"end":172.088,"text":"如果政策在缺乏溝通的跟配套之下我們倉促的強硬的上路一定會受害到我們台灣農業未來發展和尖閣我們國土的整個環境你有沒有同意?"},{"start":175.765,"end":199.912,"text":"有關台東的部分我是不是可以請我們署長還有請農業部的次長跟您回應一下但是我還是要跟那個委員報告一下其實我們都很努力在溝通但是到包括到地方政府去溝通有的時候是督發局有的時候是農業局有的時候是地政局出來溝通那回去他報告給他們縣長和次長的答案是什麼我們都不知道所以我們才覺得溝通確實是要因地制宜而且要滾動式那這點我們還是其實加強當中"},{"start":202.072,"end":213.063,"text":"事由８立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 eyebr審查委員馬文君等16人擬具"},{"start":226.476,"end":239.302,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計"},{"start":246.038,"end":248.7,"text":"條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具 «國土計畫法第四十五條條文審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":264.124,"end":264.605,"text":"事由．審查委員吳琪銘"},{"start":279.707,"end":282.349,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪．擬具"},{"start":298.539,"end":301.8,"text":"財政局局長財政局長財政局長財政局長財政局長財政局長財政局長財政局長財政局長"},{"start":327.237,"end":352.035,"text":"謝謝署長也很詳細的這個說明我想本席還是要強調我們政府不能淪為口號政府啦我們都說金、北、華、教、國、法、鐵、鐵我們的人民但是讀到權益衝擊的時候不要再用那個我們是依法行政所以北省真的不知道這麼多他就覺得我的權利受影響我覺得其實在我整個朝廷當時很多民眾反映的前期都是這樣他真的就反映說我的土地未來要怎麼整個"},{"start":356.838,"end":357.339,"text":"國土計畫法第二十三條"},{"start":377.856,"end":384.719,"text":"那以上也是希望我們政府能夠多多聽聽民意,然後多多來體恤我們老百姓。以上,謝謝部長,也謝謝署長跟次長,謝謝。好,謝謝黃建斌委員。"}]}},{"id":"157339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637527b1fd355a82c8fe6868a4ad55ac2447b74ba16637283b6cce5ef2ea4dde02c8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:09:33 - 12:18:53","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T12:09:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T12:18:53+08:00","duration":560,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.58784375,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.286593750000002,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.15971875,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.26471875,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.43221875,"end":25.512218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.86659375,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.883468750000002,"end":26.727218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.03096875,"end":34.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.89471875,"end":38.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.24846875,"end":44.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.22221875,"end":45.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.133468750000006,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.985343750000006,"end":53.946593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.88784375,"end":52.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.18284375,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.50721875,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.55784375,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.642218750000005,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.92909375,"end":58.283468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.24096875,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.99846875,"end":82.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.88721875,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.66159375000001,"end":111.00096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.74346875,"end":112.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.96284375,"end":112.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.99221875,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.02534375,"end":138.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.65346875,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.22034375,"end":138.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.45221875000001,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.16096875,"end":140.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.61221875,"end":159.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.70659375,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.77284375000002,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.39721875,"end":168.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.19034375,"end":168.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.51096875000002,"end":168.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.83159375000002,"end":168.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.88971875000001,"end":182.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.33596875,"end":191.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.74471875,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.52846875,"end":214.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.77284375000002,"end":196.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.08221875,"end":225.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.56534375,"end":228.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.33284375000002,"end":231.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.50159375,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.82596875000002,"end":232.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.95659375000002,"end":284.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.19159375,"end":241.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.20846875,"end":241.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.86534375000002,"end":250.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.87784375,"end":250.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.94534375,"end":251.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.11409375000002,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.68346875,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":253.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.03284375000004,"end":285.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.06659375000004,"end":289.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.58471875000004,"end":292.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.63534375,"end":298.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.16159375,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.35909375,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.52784375000005,"end":330.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.59346875,"end":394.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.17596875000004,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.25534375,"end":412.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.84409375,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員"},{"start":501.806,"end":503.307,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":529.156,"end":529.596,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":557.277,"end":558.084,"text":"文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"157354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157354","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752ef1f4068d1bfca0a868a4ad55ac2447b74ba16637283b6cc87ea78fc2deb64d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:36:47 - 12:44:35","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   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是民間也好政府也好大家都鼓勵變相鼓勵或期待大開發主義的這樣一個風氣我們現在政府到底的態度是什麼"},{"start":117.003,"end":132.491,"text":"我覺得我們要先把這問題釐清之後我們才可以真正把這個阻礙國土計畫法修法的這大石頭搬開不是嗎?部長我們現在要用什麼樣的方式?你看現在幾個問題嘛第一個就是你不管當然藍營執政的縣市也好綠營執政的縣市也好大家都還是因為變更的問題嘛"},{"start":133.251,"end":133.992,"text":"議員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":154.873,"end":168.618,"text":"但是這個東西如果政府沒有提出一個方案沒有一個討論的基礎所以大家今天才會去講說可能要斬言因為對這些東西的討論或者是配套並不明確以至於基層很多的民眾是反對的這個問題還是沒有解決不是嗎部長"},{"start":171.803,"end":172.684,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案"},{"start":198.567,"end":199.328,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":217.473,"end":224.758,"text":"對!你不能講說因為中央過的地方就要無條件的接受迷返,這樣好像也不是民主的精神,混勁就在這個地方。每一種都市計畫或每一種區域計畫,我們在做土地徵收或是做區段徵收的時候,也很多人都會反彈。但是我們把它設定在一個機制裡面,這個機制變成說,比如說互相compromise或是互相同意。"},{"start":237.526,"end":239.248,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":252.662,"end":278.101,"text":"但現在就是推進的過程中顯然還有諸多的爭議沒有解決啦本期認為第一個啦比如說大家現在炒最多的是農業的政策的部分嘛比如說雲林丟出了一個農業權的一個概念那他的概念其實就是好讓他接受就是說我的未來的土地在管制上或者是在使用分區上我就是以農為主但相應來講你要給予更多的財政的支持或者是其他方面的補償這個其實就是一種解決方案嘛那當然部長你可以講說這個還不是很成熟還可以討論"},{"start":280.282,"end":300.079,"text":"但你片面的認為是災難我覺得好像也話也講得太早了一點但不管方法可是說把它放到國土計畫來的話呢它就是一種災難你到底要立在哪一部法裡面政策的執行的配套是什麼方案是什麼其實都有待討論但其實就是因為你沒有一些這樣子的妥協或折衷的時候我們都沒有辦法面對民意反對的浪潮嘛"},{"start":300.419,"end":318.502,"text":"我們不能因為他學理上他是有進步的我們就要壓制民意的浪潮這樣很奇怪嘛我們的角色本來就是在中間不停的協調所以今天有慢慢慢慢開始有人丟出了新的方案他其實就是一個產生配套的過程嘛那今天就是產生配套的過程中也許需要更多的時間啊那部長你同不同意需要更多的時間"},{"start":318.882,"end":322.004,"text":"我剛剛一開始就跟各位委員報告過我們希望那個農業權或是農業發展權或是其他的跟農業配套的措施的部分是放在農業部來主導那我們都完全尊重我想這樣的方式更配合我們整個整體國家發展因為國土計畫不是只有講農地計畫"},{"start":340.533,"end":360.166,"text":"問題是農業部要產生這一套機制,或者是可以平息民怨的政策措施需不需要時間?本席認為需要時間,對不對?我想也不是只有本席認為需要時間,大部分的委員都需要時間。那沒關係啦,因為今天下午的時候法條會做討論,應該還有一些時間來做政策對話,但是本席提醒,我是覺得這個事也許內政部要多擔待,"},{"start":360.666,"end":378.815,"text":"可能要開更多的地方說明會尤其在農業縣市是不是要多走一走再聽一聽大家的意見要不然你當立法委員這一段我們剛好就夾在中間我們了解這個法案推動的學禮也了解它的好意但是我們也面對民意的壓力所以我是覺得需要更多的時間去做溝通不是嗎"},{"start":379.835,"end":399.766,"text":"我想我贊成這個委員的說法就是如果需要多做溝通的話包括用那個他們能夠了解的語言多做溝通但是也要讓我們能夠了解我們去哪裡溝通因為我們現在包括溝通的場子都出來那有些地方呢他不希望我們去啊他只願意我們只願意接受大家擔心血流成河沒關係啦我覺得這一部分血流成河是太過分啦我想不用這樣講我們還是一樣願意多做溝通包括我們自己的這個民進黨的委員也提到他們認為溝通要戰前"},{"start":408.891,"end":409.151,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條"},{"start":433.39,"end":440.054,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．"},{"start":463.367,"end":463.949,"text":"條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"157348","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157348","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752abe01a37b370cfcf868a4ad55ac2447b74ba16637283b6cc0782f81b66ae16015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:26:52 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Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   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book給你在這裡424家其中最重要的是什麼"},{"start":318.405,"end":345.225,"text":"其中最重要的單位,你們的盤點。報告楊委員,他當然寫半導體機械,但是就我所了解應該就是五大信賴產業裡面的全部包含在內。對,所以包括半導體、機械、資訊、光電、電子等這些產業,五大產業都在裡面。那我們同時希望能夠協助產業,也幫助人才、培育人才。這是現在非常重要的課題。所以請教部長,"},{"start":346.226,"end":361.016,"text":"民國防兵力結構調整之後也就是94年次的一男畢業已經沒有研發替代役可選那這一項政策怎麼辦呢你是要終止還是會有其他的制度方向"},{"start":361.616,"end":371.64,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆議員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫"},{"start":385.814,"end":386.574,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條"},{"start":403.53,"end":423.766,"text":"部長你現在還不清楚這個議題因為我們在整個培養人力必須要這個是有好的成績本席在取我們要怎樣延續但是問題是你94年畢業之後他就沒有這個研發替代役啦那你的人要從哪裡來你短暫這兩年沒問題持續再做對不對但是他94年畢業的會到啊"},{"start":429.79,"end":431.951,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":454.471,"end":456.012,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":471.585,"end":475.689,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案案．審查委員"},{"start":490.264,"end":508.93,"text":"對,九十四年的一男畢業之後他就沒有所謂的研發替代役所以這個到了之後,未來幾年到了之後你要怎麼辦?你要怎麼辦?這是本席跟你討論的議題我剛跟委員報告我們會堅持要有延續這樣的研發替代役好,會有延續,那人要從哪裡來?人要從替代役那邊來啊九十四年畢業之後就沒有研發替代役啦"},{"start":519.74,"end":521.742,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":542.139,"end":555.564,"text":"有幾個方向,第一個你認為94年畢業之後的議難,你認即使都到了你認為研發替代還要繼續辦,是不是?對吼,你要按下去,你要按下去啊。只是人數不一樣而已。對啦,不是人數不一樣,是人的來源不一樣。所以本席要求你們去檢討,你那個來源要從哪個制度面來,我們要討論這個。"},{"start":572.575,"end":574.596,"text":"條文修正草案案。四、 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【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T12:19:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T12:26:46+08:00","duration":465,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8240937500000001,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.894718750000001,"end":8.232218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.792843750000003,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":23.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.53784375,"end":24.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.44409375,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.612218750000004,"end":35.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.67096875,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.36659375,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.907843750000005,"end":59.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.40971875,"end":63.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.51471875000001,"end":69.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.02846875,"end":86.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.73471875,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.87721875000001,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.96909375,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.96471875,"end":102.56346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.88409375,"end":103.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.57596875,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.21284375,"end":107.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.67659375000001,"end":111.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.30471875,"end":130.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.37221875,"end":112.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.72784375,"end":130.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.74471875,"end":130.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.98096875000002,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.99784375000002,"end":131.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.01471875000001,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.03159375,"end":131.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.16659375,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.01596875,"end":226.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.30346875,"end":283.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.34534375000004,"end":284.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.26909375,"end":290.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.95596875,"end":305.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.27846875,"end":324.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.50346875,"end":350.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.13221875000005,"end":356.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.24534375,"end":356.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.80221875,"end":357.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.64596875,"end":358.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.97909375,"end":379.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.95471875000004,"end":382.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.65471875000003,"end":434.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.78159375,"end":437.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.10596875000005,"end":446.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.13846875,"end":446.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.30721875,"end":446.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.74596875000003,"end":452.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.40784375000004,"end":450.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.42034375000003,"end":453.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.66909375,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.33096875,"end":459.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.82409375000003,"end":461.64659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.811,"end":3.372,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議"},{"start":11.021,"end":31.756,"text":"部長從上個會期本席就提出要延長兩年其實我們整個政府的政策是一個非常完善也是一個美意但是可能跟地方政府的溝通的橋樑還是不是那麼順暢因為本席在這邊我也看到我們新北市和分林他們都沒有提出因為我也是保證你們也知道我分林的主題"},{"start":39.428,"end":45.11,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第3會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":60.435,"end":73.163,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。三、 INTERVIEWER審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":86.832,"end":88.853,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":102.919,"end":115.086,"text":"審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案．審查委員馬文君等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十"},{"start":131.076,"end":135.418,"text":"報告委員,委員剛才說到新北市政府跟雲林縣政府。我來聽各位,在這裡我自己的官員去交通以外,我也有跟奧郵局、奧市長、跟中管長都分別加進去。他們兩個都有答應說,希望在12月的時候,可以把這個國土計畫的公認分架上來進步。"},{"start":157.449,"end":157.689,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":177.022,"end":179.044,"text":"當然國土計畫法有很多溝通不良的地方但是新北市大部分據我所了解他比較不是因為農地的使用部分新北市是因為大面積要改造譬如說建地或其他土地的區域上面的位分上面"},{"start":194.5,"end":197.143,"text":"競爭政府需要做更好的交通。我亦非常了解。所以我向委員剛才報告,就是說十八市長有跟我說他們在12屆的進展可以上來。我認為這是一個很好的交通方式。"},{"start":209.696,"end":220.724,"text":"議員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案。二、 INTERVIEWER審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":237.196,"end":247.265,"text":"條文修正草案案案。四、cellence委員吳琪銘等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。五、cellence委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。六、cellence委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。五、cellence委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、cellence委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具《國土計畫法第四十五條條條文修正草案案。五、cellence"},{"start":265.8,"end":273.784,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具:「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員吳琪銘等16人擬具"},{"start":285.79,"end":286.891,"text":"文修正草案案件事項。"},{"start":305.001,"end":308.203,"text":"文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條"},{"start":329.938,"end":337.5,"text":"所以我要跟委員說今天你的提出,你還正經說希望未來我們如果有政黨要合上國土計畫法有要修法的部分的時候,我們希望可以讓我們的官方單位尤其是內政部跟農業部提出配套措施,不要說只有針對一個條文這樣修了,修了之後會空殼掉,空殼掉會變成以後的國土計畫在這行的當中變成一個災難。"},{"start":356.88,"end":375.527,"text":"是因為普通在我們對農民有益的部分我們就要充分讓農民來了解我們農民因為很多受到誤導大家都會恐慌在這個部分你就要充分去做宣導包括我們農業部包括我們"},{"start":376.287,"end":380.828,"text":"國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案。四十條第一項提供民眾檢舉獎金。我認為這個會包括我們過去包括交通、科技、執法很多都展現民怨。所以在這條,大家說我們要檢討,我們不應該讓我們民眾"},{"start":405.614,"end":406.935,"text":"審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":420.399,"end":421.46,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第16屆第16屆第16屆第16屆第16屆第16屆第16屆第16屆"},{"start":442.455,"end":442.675,"text":"文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"157355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375267b92fad8d2677d6868a4ad55ac2447b74ba16637283b6ccd0a8f933bb3cebe05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"12:44:42 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Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T12:44:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T12:55:19+08:00","duration":637,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.7772187500000003,"end":7.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.50659375,"end":23.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.28034375,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.17846875,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.95221875,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.728468750000005,"end":46.690343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.68471875,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.49034375000001,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.13221875,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.59596875000001,"end":110.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.47346875000001,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.79159375,"end":203.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.00784375,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.80784375000002,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.18471875,"end":228.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.89846875,"end":228.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.48471875,"end":228.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.80534375000002,"end":234.17159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.68284375000002,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.74596875,"end":232.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.41221875000002,"end":289.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.06159375000004,"end":294.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.76971875000004,"end":296.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.87909375000004,"end":303.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.67971875,"end":309.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.92346875000004,"end":316.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.48784375,"end":318.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.79971875,"end":326.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.69284375,"end":332.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.26659375,"end":328.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.78096875,"end":355.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.11721875,"end":342.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.25471875,"end":351.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.68471875,"end":363.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.18159375000005,"end":360.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.83909375,"end":367.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.59409375,"end":372.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.03221875,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.89159375,"end":383.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.64659375,"end":440.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.40534375000004,"end":385.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.85096875000005,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.19659375000003,"end":400.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.43221875,"end":402.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.71846875,"end":407.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.43784375,"end":420.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.03971875,"end":431.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.97596875000005,"end":437.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.01721875000004,"end":444.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.27409375,"end":469.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.48534375,"end":472.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.00784375,"end":491.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.02409375,"end":476.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.92909375000005,"end":509.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.37909375000004,"end":500.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.82096875,"end":541.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.9040937500001,"end":551.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.66659375,"end":559.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.54284375,"end":590.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.49159375,"end":562.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.9597187500001,"end":565.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.0947187500001,"end":599.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.5322187500001,"end":606.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.5859687500001,"end":618.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.43784375,"end":609.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.50846875,"end":617.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.5547187500001,"end":617.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.5334687500001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【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T09:16:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T09:17:27+08:00","duration":77,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.312843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.85284375,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.59721875,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.89659375,"end":25.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.512218750000002,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.13909375,"end":38.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.96159375,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.40409375,"end":44.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.188468750000006,"end":48.158468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.462218750000005,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.41971875,"end":52.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.60909375,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.68284375,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.82971875,"end":73.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.61846875,"end":76.22159375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":21.798,"text":"我想昨天內政委員會我們召回排定的議程包括選法府、韓中選會的這個預算案齁其中我會想選法法的版本不管是民進黨、民眾黨、國民黨都有提出就代表這個是要跨黨派都希望來檢視我們選法法的相關規定啦齁那總會專案也是民進黨團先前不斷的高喊要趕快審查嘛齁那我們要審查齁那這邊其實"},{"start":22.958,"end":26.261,"text":"事由．審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具〈國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":53.649,"end":70.407,"text":"如果先前你不斷高喊要審預算要進行我們就讓我們的會議順利的開始好來審查希望民黨不要自我矛盾如果繼續癱瘓意識卡預算的就是你們自己民黨才真的是一邊卡預算一邊說要審查預算謝謝好 謝謝程序發言結束"}]}},{"id":"157254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637526504ecc79db4d008868a4ad55ac2447b19764a0ef6fec39b1b51977d4a86bfe65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:13:16 - 09:16:06","影片長度":"00:02:50","會議時間":"2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"（變更議程）立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查委員吳琪銘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、\t審查委員馬文君等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。四、\t審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。五、\t審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。六、\t審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。七、\t審查委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。八、\t審查委員陳超明等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。九、\t審查委員丁學忠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   【第二十四案，如經復議，則不予審查；第二十五至二十七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-21","start_time":"2024-11-21T09:13:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-21T09:16:06+08:00","duration":170,"meet":null,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.66784375,"end":159.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.11534375000002,"end":165.42284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.684,"end":11.226,"text":"好謝謝主席各位同仁大家早安喔針對今天早上的這個議事錄我必須要在這邊的嚴正的抗議我還是認為這個本會第十次的會議並沒有依法開會會議應屬無效所以這個議事錄應該不予確定並且應該要在本次的會議補行確定第九次"},{"start":23.669,"end":34.132,"text":"的會議的議事錄。」為什麼呢?因為大家知道說昨天我們有非常認真的同仁早起來上班。那早起來上班為什麼會是違反議事規則呢?應該給予鼓勵都來不及了。那怎麼會用這種方式來還說早起上班人必須要跟人民道歉。"},{"start":43.475,"end":71.208,"text":"這個是非常認真的立法委員的表現請大家不要這樣子模糊焦點那我也必須要說在昨天國民黨團這個違法的攜帶個人的麥克風來到會議室這完全是已經違反立法院異常安全及維護管理要點的第七點說委員不得攜帶個人的麥克風這個韓國瑜院長也在之前也有明確的指示過了"},{"start":72.228,"end":74.509,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案．立法院第四十五條條文修正草案"},{"start":96.323,"end":97.004,"text":"規定到說除秘密會議外"},{"start":112.139,"end":132.748,"text":"立法院應該要透過電視網路等媒體通路全程轉播本會的會議並且全程的錄音錄影那大家可以去看一下昨天早上的會議現場完全是沒有辦法任何收音的沒有任何收音到由議事人員提供的麥克風也沒有任何錄影所以大家根本聽不到說昨天宣讀了什麼內容"},{"start":133.948,"end":158.428,"text":"那就這樣的內容就知道說沒有依照我們議事人員提供的麥克風造成的結果就是大家根本看不到昨天的會議內容為何所以根據以上包括立法院組織法以及立法院議場的安全管理要點昨天的議事錄必須不予確認那我也認為昨天是一個無效而且非法的會議以上謝謝"},{"start":162.202,"end":163.048,"text":"條文修正草案。」案。"}]}},{"id":"157252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637529a8bff83a0db0d4f868a4ad55ac2447b19764a0ef6fec39bf5e92c6d24b32f115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:08:37 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Kacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員張嘉郡等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、\t審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十四、\t審查委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十五、\t審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十六、\t審查委員柯志恩等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十七、\t審查委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十八、\t審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。十九、\t審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十、\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十一、\t審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十二、\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十三、\t審查委員林岱樺等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十四、\t審查委員涂權吉等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十五、\t審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二十六、\t審查委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」案。二十七、\t審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。   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是部長你不是立法委員你不是醫師你不只這個身份你是部長你要政策告訴人家明年的1.0.95是沒問題的你來源沒問題我們要聽的是這個"},{"start":336.937,"end":358.792,"text":"對不對因為這個牽涉到疾病的形態的一個變化還有管理的情況如果這個都穩定的話我們就可以達到0.95應該是沒有問題最後這一句話算數齁我還是聽最後這一句話部長所以務必要達到這是立法院商黨決議當然當然行政部門就是遵照決議大家來努力最後一個議題齁"},{"start":365.458,"end":375.344,"text":"2030年你要減少癌症死亡率三分之一2030年我們看到你醫療保健支出是315.7億那比這個113年你是增加了128.46%"},{"start":382.788,"end":402.429,"text":"那你公布了癌症從71年到112年都是全國十大死因之首而且108年到112年你是排行榜前五名主要就是癌症那當然他的醫療費用是一直在增加所以部長你說要從"},{"start":403.27,"end":427.29,"text":"要到2030年減少癌症死亡率三分之一來達到對國人生命健康的一個重視這是對的方向要怎麼做呢比如說台灣的肺癌那麼多那你這個肺癌篩檢你是不是從預防重於治療這樣你可以減少後端很多的醫療支出我們是不是應該要讓這個肺癌的篩檢"},{"start":428.789,"end":430.53,"text":"致電致電致電致電致電致電致電致電致"},{"start":459.029,"end":472.824,"text":"施提篩檢以後那個就真的是找出了不少施提篩檢你要怎麼協助我們會陸續來一個人我沒錢可以去檢查沒有啦 黑的啊因為只要你達到那個條件就達到那個條件就來不及啊就免費啊免費啊"},{"start":475.126,"end":493.251,"text":"對阿 達到那個條件就來不及了 拜託本期告訴你的是預防的這一塊怎麼做我所謂的 那是 我現在在講預防 我們不要再講預防阿誰有條件去做篩檢嘛 不是說我想去做就是當然我們就會設定在比較高危險群我們就請他去做篩檢 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謝謝"},{"start":37.529,"end":61.595,"text":"委員好我想在開始之前我剛剛有聽到委員在講說這一些的霸凌事件非常需要來秉公處理要有第三方的介入來完整的呈現因為這一條人命離去之後應該要留給我們的是教訓以及改革我想部長也是非常認同那我也要反駁一下前一位羅廷偉委員說的就是"},{"start":62.375,"end":87.555,"text":"我會聽政權已經被大法官判定為違憲不要再拿這一件事情來趁機作亂這是一個違憲的事件不需要再拿聽政權所以我希望衛福部一定要來徹底的調查這件事情那剛剛也有講到一個禮拜要提出調查報告這個我們也非常的期待我們也會持續的來關注那接下來呢我就回到我今天原本要來質詢的題目"},{"start":90.026,"end":99.428,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":105.56,"end":126.474,"text":"我想要針對於藻寮預算的部分因為其實我們在講藻寮是非常非常重要的一件事情那我們現在其實藻寮的量能其實都還不足沒有達到一個世界應該有的一個標準但是我卻看到在我們人數上升的時候我們藻寮的預算卻跟去年相比少了1500萬"},{"start":129.266,"end":138.033,"text":"那我有點不太了解就是說明明人數就在增加啊我們量能根本都還沒到為什麼我的預算會少1500萬可不可以請署長做個說明"},{"start":141.539,"end":158.567,"text":"我想我們在找遙的部分分成兩個部分一個是聯評中心的部件的部分那另外一個是我們今年7月要開始推行的6次的一個成長評估的部分那這兩個加起來我們總共的經費應該是在5.5到6億之間"},{"start":163.195,"end":189.993,"text":"對所以所以應該是說我們是有增加嗎跟去年來說我們增加多少呢大概增加了1.73億左右1.73億就是來做剛剛講的部件對不對跟6次的部分好那我想再確認一件事情就是說我知道我們現在在做找療的時候呢如果他今天是透過這個兒童找療的特別門診的話其實我們是會有通報跟追蹤的機制對嗎我理解是這樣子"},{"start":190.473,"end":210.172,"text":"但是如果今天家長是透過一般復健門診的話我們其實就沒有通報了對嗎也沒有辦法去追蹤他還是可以走原來的通報系統但是我確認過醫院現在是這個一般的復健門診進來的是沒有進入通報系統"},{"start":211.175,"end":225.403,"text":"因為通報系統在中央是社交組在地方的話是在社政我們來瞭解一下好那這部分是不是可以跟社政一起來瞭解一下因為我想喔因為現實上就是這些孩子有可能因為我們家長"},{"start":226.563,"end":250.542,"text":"家長的一些覺得這是貼標籤的行為或是他家族壓力不希望自己的小孩有狀況或者是說關於保險所以造成了這些孩子最後沒有進入這個系統來去協助他那這會造成什麼樣子的問題就是等他到上學了之後跟人際衝突那開始就會產生我們所謂的這些學校的衝突霸凌事件都非常有關聯"},{"start":251.883,"end":267.285,"text":"所以這個變成是早期的對家長的教育非常的重要所以我想社家屬也責無旁貸一定要來積極的積極的來協助做更多的溝通跟瞭解為什麼他們不願意通報以及該如何協助他們通報"},{"start":269.131,"end":285.391,"text":"這部分社家署跟國建署是不是可以一起來合作呢我們來研議看看竟然當然先導鼓勵還有怎麼樣來強化兩邊的一個連結因為這個通報系統能夠更完整好那這個署長呢社家署"},{"start":286.561,"end":300.69,"text":"公務員報告其實有關通報的部分其實不管是在門診或者是在找療系統他其實都是可以去通報但是我問了我問的是大型醫院他們是說一般是沒有通報的那沒關係因為我想你的理解跟現場執行上面出現了落差"},{"start":309.476,"end":328.774,"text":"我詢問的還是超大型醫院他都沒有通報可是他這邊是接收到最多的嘛那到底發生了什麼事情那這部分就請社家署跟國健署一起來了解好嗎那我想齁盤點一下我們現在的各大型醫院縣市到底有沒有做一般的門診的通報這部分可以做個盤點嗎"},{"start":333.035,"end":333.515,"text":"國健署署長請回"},{"start":363.188,"end":385.805,"text":"那我想在社家署也可以請回接下來我想要請教部長就是說我們在我想學生自殺率自殺率節節上升而且昨年增加大幅度的增加我想這是不爭的事實我想部長也非常非常的清楚那尤其是在國中端的部分可以幫我按下一頁嗎他沒有反應"},{"start":387.706,"end":410.246,"text":"我們現在是有一些心理的我們國家是有提供一些心理諮商的服務在15到45歲所以我看這張表我想部長你可以看一下在國中的這一條黃色線10到14歲它裡面其實包含的是國中端的部分這一段其實也是在增加可是我們現在其實並沒有提供相關的青壯世代的心理健康支持方案"},{"start":411.067,"end":440.565,"text":"那我在想我們是不是可以針對國中端的這個部分一起來提供來研議啦是不是可以提供這個免費心理諮商的補助之前我其實也有質詢過教育部了那希望他們可以來跟衛福部一起來努力這個部分我想要聽聽看衛福部的意見針對國中端延伸到國中端這一部分好我們會跟教育部來一起協同努力齁那新建室要不要看狀況報告一下"},{"start":442.047,"end":470.587,"text":"謝謝委員關切這個呃國中生的一個呃自殺的一個問題喔那因為現在學校呃在教育部的部分是有呃學校三級輔導的一個機制那興建師這邊主要是在社區這邊做支援的部件但是針對國中生的心理健康我們也非常的關心所以我們會跟教育部這邊一起來演繹如何在呃國中這個階段能夠加強他們的心理健康那我希望可以在一個月內跟教育部討論好嗎呃好那結束之後各位的書面報告謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":471.469,"end":472.391,"text":"謝謝張委員請楊雄英委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1188,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（13時9分）謝謝主席，大家如果肚子餓的話就去拿便當，主席非常照顧大家的身體健康，我也非常支持，我會節省時間，讓主席可以不要坐那麼久。首先我們先來邀請部長，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：在開始之前，我剛剛有聽到羅委員在講，這一些霸凌事件非常需要來秉公處理……"],["邱部長泰源：是，當然，有。"],["張委員雅琳：要有第三方介入來完整的呈現，因為這條人命離去之後，應該要留給我們的是教訓以及改革，我想部長也是非常認同。我也要反駁一下前一位羅廷瑋委員說的，就是國會聽證權已經被大法官判定為違憲，不要再拿這一件事情來趁機作亂，這是一個違憲的事件，不需要再拿聽證權，所以我希望衛福部一定要澈底的調查這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：剛剛也有講到一個禮拜要提出調查報告，這個我們也非常的期待，我也會持續地來關注。接下來我就回到我今天原本要來質詢的題目，就是早療的議題，因為其實我們一直都非常關注。我可能先邀請國健署署長上臺。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：我想要針對早療預算的部分，因為我們在講早療是非常非常重要的一件事情，我們現在早療的量能其實都還不足，沒有達到一個世界應該有的標準，但是我卻看到，在我們人數上升的時候，我們早療的預算跟去年相比卻少了1,500萬。我有點不太了解，明明人數就在增加，我們的量能根本都還沒到，為什麼我的預算會少1,500萬？可不可以請署長做個說明？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們在早療的部分分成兩個部分，一個是聯評中心布建的部分，另外一個是我們今年7月1號開始推行的6次成長評估的部分，這兩個加起來我們總共的經費應該是在5.5到6億之間。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以應該是說我們預算是有增加嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：是。"],["張委員雅琳：跟去年來說，我們增加多少呢？"],["吳署長昭軍：大概增加了1.73億左右。"],["張委員雅琳：1.73億，就是來做剛剛講的布建跟6次成長評估的部分，對不對？"],["吳署長昭軍：對。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我想要再確認一件事情。我知道我們現在在做早療的時候，如果他今天是透過兒童早療特別門診的話，我們會有通報跟追蹤的機制，對嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：對。"],["張委員雅琳：我的理解是這樣子。但是如果今天家長是透過一般復健門診的話，我們其實就沒有通報了，對嗎？也沒有辦法去追蹤。"],["吳署長昭軍：他還是可以走原來的通報系統。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我跟醫院確認過，現在從一般的復健門診進來的，是沒有進入通報系統耶。"],["吳署長昭軍：因為通報系統在中央是社家署，在地方的話是在社政，我們來了解一下，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，這部分是不是可以跟社政單位一起來了解一下？因為現實上這些孩子有可能因為我們家長，家長的一些覺得這是貼標籤的行為；或是他有家族壓力，不希望自己的小孩有狀況；或者是說關於保險，所以造成這些孩子最後沒有進入早療系統接受協助，這會造成什麼樣子的問題？就是等到他上學之後出現人際衝突，開始就會產生學校的衝突、霸凌事件，都非常的有關聯，所以這就變成早期的、對家長的教育非常的重要，我想社家署也責無旁貸，一定要積極的來協助做更多的溝通跟了解為什麼他們不願意通報，以及該如何協助他們通報。這部分社家署跟國健署是不是可以一起來合作呢？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們來研議看看，當然要儘量宣導、鼓勵，還有怎樣來強化兩邊的連結，讓這個通報系統能夠更完整。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那社家署署長呢？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，有關通報的部分，不管是在門診或者是在早療系統其實都可以去通報，所以當家長在做這一塊的時候……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我問了，我問了大型醫院，我問的是大型醫院，他們是說一般是沒有通報的。"],["周代理署長道君：如果跟他們來做的話……因為這個部分的話，我們當然可以跟……一起來合作，來提高它的通報的意願。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，我想你的理解跟現場的執行上面出現了落差啦！因為我詢問的真的是超大型醫院，他都沒有通報，可是他這邊一定是接收到最多的嘛，那到底發生了什麼事情？這部分就請社家署跟國健署一起來了解，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們去了解。"],["張委員雅琳：我想盤點一下我們現在各縣市的大型醫院，到底有沒有做一般性的門診通報，這部分可以做個盤點嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們來調查一下。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那大概什麼時候可以給我一個調查結果？大概什麼時候可以給我一個調查結果？因為我想這是回到兒少最佳化利益原則，所以這大概什麼時候可以給我？"],["吳署長昭軍：兩個禮拜，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，兩個禮拜，謝謝。國健署署長請回，社家署也請回。"],["吳署長昭軍：謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來我想請教部長，我們學生的自傷跟自殺率節節上升，而且逐年大幅度的增加，這是不爭的事實，我想部長也非常非常的清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["張委員雅琳：尤其是在國中端的部分，現在我們國家對15到45歲的族群是有提供一些心理諮商的服務，可是我看這張表，我想部長可以看一下，在國中的這一條黃色的線10到14歲，它裡面其實包含了國中端的部分……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["張委員雅琳：這一端其實也是在增加，可是我們現在並沒有提供相關的青壯世代的心理健康支持方案。我在想我們是不是可以針對國中端的這個部分一起來研議，是不是可以提供免費的心理諮商的補助？之前我其實也有質詢過教育部了，希望他們可以跟衛福部一起來努力。這個部分我想要聽聽看衛福部的意見，針對於延伸到國中端這一部分。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會跟教育部一起來協同努力。心健司要不要看狀況報告一下？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：謝謝委員關切國中生自殺的問題，現在學校端在教育部的部分是有學校的三級輔導機制，心健司這邊主要是在社區端做支援的布建，但是針對國中生的心理健康，我們也非常的關心，所以我們會跟教育部這邊一起來研議，如何在國中這個階段能夠加強他們的心理健康。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我希望可以在一個月內跟教育部討論，好嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：好。"],["張委員雅琳：討論結束之後，給我一個書面報告，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：好。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。請楊瓊瓔委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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謝謝主席我們請警政署署長、刑事警察局局長好 局長委員好好 署長好 局長好這個大家都很關心這個少年青少年這一個犯罪還有這個因為詐騙這一個詐騙數越來越上升的一個問題那我舉這個你們刑事警察局的這一個的這個案子來看"},{"start":34.178,"end":43.086,"text":"我這邊走到112年了112年的這個比例來講少年犯罪這個少年嫌疑人到了112年有10770人那比110年是多了1216人"},{"start":49.707,"end":65.856,"text":"然後呢這個112年這個青少年嫌疑犯有44661人然後到110年呢增加了1481人那其中呢青年跟少年犯罪類型最詐欺最詐欺案最多"},{"start":66.696,"end":88.965,"text":"在這個青少年的部分的話呢少年的部分的話詐欺是佔20%青年部分的話是佔31.53%然後呢增加的這個人數呢青年是增加了912人增加了9.33%少年增加了524人增加了31.53%少年增加的比例更高"},{"start":89.997,"end":110.095,"text":"所以我們看這個圖少年詐欺的嫌犯比這種逐年增加我剛剛講了到了這個112年到了20%然後呢這個少年嫌犯呢常見的涉案類型呢這個詐欺呢他也是最多見比這個之前的這個竊盜一般傷害都還要多"},{"start":110.802,"end":129.851,"text":"那我看一下內政部的報告新少年 少年涉詐的主要的類型是車手或車手頭還有一個是人頭帳戶 這兩個是算主要的比例按照司法院的統計來看2018年到2023年"},{"start":134.433,"end":159.512,"text":"這個少年的詐欺犯人數呢從3254人那激增到6323人成長了這個1.94倍啦齁那林林總總看了這麼多的數據來看齁那其實我相信大家都很關心齁這個少年青少年齁這個尤其在詐欺這部分齁這個比例是越來越高齁那請下一下局長或是說這個署長齁你們對於這一個比例越來越高"},{"start":160.433,"end":185.604,"text":"你們的看法是怎麼樣?好,這個依照這幾年的演變確實現在目前青少年會被淪為作為詐欺的一個對象是有在攀升的這個趨向對,為什麼?對,那我想第一個可能就是因為一個法制概念的不足"},{"start":186.304,"end":209.432,"text":"是不是他們認為說這個未成年犯罪這個會沒有刑責不是,不是不會有刑責因為除了他自己本身的刑責之外這個父母親還要擔負法律上的這個責任我說現在的青少年是不是會有這種概念他們認為是說可能他們這個犯罪可能就是會比較輕嘛這就是法律上的這個不足嘛"},{"start":210.072,"end":231.041,"text":"第二部分可能就是對於他經濟能力的狀況被詐騙金的保證獲利經濟上的誘惑第三個可能就是家庭上的教育上的問題署長現在講的都是原因那怎麼去做"},{"start":231.661,"end":253.927,"text":"那我覺得第一個最重要的就是一定要讓他有美麗要視乍的這個美麗要加強做這個一個宣導這宣導的這個層面一定要讓他知道說去犯這個案罪是有法律的刑罪而且這個父母親會負有年代的責任的那以後這些這個跟教育部對教育部的部分宣導部門會來做加強"},{"start":256.008,"end":279.669,"text":"那另外就是說我們我覺得我們要去做就是我們自己做要去查那個源頭啦我們要查源頭到底是誰來教授來做這一些這些的案件查這個源頭嘛這個源頭也就是說這個集團的源頭是誰來做教授的要把源頭把它把它查出來那另外就是說這個其他的這個如果說有可能"},{"start":280.95,"end":305.517,"text":"要做其他就業的或什麼這一類的機會可能勞動部的這個部分可能要提供一些機會相關部位來做配合我覺得最重要的就是從源頭來這邊來處理第一個從宣導的處理第二從我們偵查的這個教唆者的這些的詐欺集團的核心分子來做處理我再請一下這個內政部處長好了"},{"start":308.371,"end":325.55,"text":"這個我剛剛也聽了你也回應了很多這個委員對於這個青少年這個詐欺的比例越來越高那你覺得還有哪些部分可以再做加強的啦我剛剛也聽了學校啦、教育啦然後關懷團體啦那還有哪些地方要加強因為我看這比例是越來越高啊"},{"start":327.029,"end":354.224,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們現在對青少年來講他第一個當然就是說金錢的誘惑是最重要的原因啦那我們會不會讓他們覺得說是因為代價很小但是獲利很高對就是說他的成本很低的對尤其他們大部分是擔任車手的這個角色那行則是比較低因為司法院有在這邊嘛我想請問一下就是說目前"},{"start":354.764,"end":364.595,"text":"目前就是有關這個詐騙的這個少年或是青少年這個是不是大部分都還是以這個保護管束或是訓誡居多"},{"start":373.327,"end":401.244,"text":"謝謝委員我是司法院少家庭傅曉萱那委員剛有提到說我們的少年如果觸犯這個詐欺相關的案件的時候我們現在有分為兩個部分一個部分是少年保護事件的處理方式另外一個部分是少年刑事案件的處理方式剛剛委員詢問說是什麼樣的保護處分居多那我們現在手上的記錄呢以少年保護事件來講是保護管束"},{"start":401.844,"end":422.785,"text":"的這個比例最多?一一二年顯示我們的這個跟詐欺有關的保護處分執行狀況是在45.62%45.62%是以保護管數為最大中那所以你覺得效果有這個效果嗎?就是在這一個處分上面有這個效果嗎?"},{"start":423.844,"end":448.468,"text":"報告委員我們現在針對這個詐欺的相關案件我們現在司法院邵家廷有推行一個高風險保護管束的事辦計畫因為是從今年113年2月1日開始推行所以目前在6月中有一個短期的這個執行的成效檢討目前看起來是有一定的成效的但是後續還要等數據量比較多的時候才可以具以分析"},{"start":449.348,"end":471.796,"text":"對 我是想 這個包含我在內 大家都很關心那 大家其實也清楚 就從教育 家長或是說這一個多輪的這個關懷的團體那當然行者是 這個是最後的一部分那我是覺得就是說 這個你們要怎麼樣去做一個統合 去做一個統合"},{"start":472.677,"end":476.141,"text":"其實三月份跟今天的這個報告其實也差不了多少"},{"start":491.198,"end":510.62,"text":"就變成說這個相同問題我們一直重複在討論但數字沒有因此而降低所以我才會問說到底是哪一些部分還可以再做加強的所以真的還是希望各位這回去真的就是在各自的業務上面再來看看就是說這個有哪些部分可以再做處理的"},{"start":512.561,"end":523.167,"text":"這個上半年度問的東西跟下半年度問的東西那其實數據一直增加但是提出來的方法都是一樣好 謝謝各位那我再問一下最後一個我問一下速發布好了這個我看的這個網路詐騙的這個通報查詢網這個Meta它還是這個詐騙的大戶啦這個你們有這個每天有這樣看你們自己的這個詐騙的查詢網嗎"},{"start":540.58,"end":568.696,"text":"目前這個部分呢就是Meta還是比較多但是他們已經有承諾就是說在那個年底之前他們會就是會把這個部分處理完什麼意思?什麼叫做把這部分處理完?因為根據那個打詐四法我們訂定的那個執法的部分那針對這些廣告的平台他必須要提出這個法定代理人都提出來了啊對 他們都提出來了對啊 因為Daylight是不是10月31號啊"},{"start":570.077,"end":585.135,"text":"我們目前是正在審查中他們現在另外有另外有一個部分就是針對就是這個廣告的部分廣告平台部分他們要做實名制實名制就是在年底之前他們會做完"},{"start":585.475,"end":614.071,"text":"我剛有聽到說實名制Google有先做了是不是是Google它是哪時候做的昨天所以就是說在Google要投放廣告現在就是實名制了對那為什麼這個其他的還要等到你們執法出來他們才願意做他們有在研議好像他們在那個程式規劃設計的部分好像稍微有點複雜不太一樣那所以呢到年底有機會嗎是到年底包含這個LINE"},{"start":615.586,"end":624.518,"text":"臉書、TikTok都有辦法嗎?都有辦法就是我們廣告都要實名制沒辦法也要有辦法沒辦法也要有辦法"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1495,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（13時5分）謝謝主席！我們請警政署署長、刑事警察局局長"],["主席：請署長和局長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：署長好，局長好。大家都很關心少年、青少年犯罪還有詐騙數愈來愈上升的問題，依據刑事警察局到112年案件數的統計表，以112年的比率來講，少年嫌疑人有10,770人，比110年多了1,216人；112年的青少年嫌疑犯有44,661人，較110年增加了1,481人，其中青年跟少年犯罪類型以詐欺案為最多，在少年的部分，詐欺是占20%，青年部分是占31.53%，至於增加的人數，青年是增加了912人，增加了9.33%，少年增加了524人，增加了31.53%，少年增加的比率更高。由這個表可看出少年詐欺嫌犯的比重逐年增加，我剛講了，112年已到了20%，少年嫌犯常見的涉案類型也是以詐欺最多，比之前的竊盜、一般傷害都還要多。我們再看一下內政部的報告，少年涉詐的主要類型是車手或車手頭，還有一個是人頭帳戶，這兩種占了主要的比率。按照司法院的統計來看，2018年到2023年，少年詐欺犯人數從3,254人激增到6,323人，成長了1.94倍。看了林林總總這麼多的數據，其實我相信大家都很關心少年、青少年尤其是在詐欺這部分比率愈來愈高的問題，請教一下局長或署長，你們對於這個比率愈來愈高的看法是怎麼樣？"],["張署長榮興：依照這幾年的演變，確實現在青少年被淪為作為詐欺對象是有在攀升的趨向，"],["李委員坤城：為什麼？"],["張署長榮興：我想第一個可能就是因為法治概念的不足。"],["李委員坤城：所以他們認為未成年犯罪不會有刑責？"],["張署長榮興：不是不會有刑責，因為除了他自己本身的刑責之外，他的父母親還要擔負法律上的責任。"],["李委員坤城：我是說青少年是不是會有這種概念？"],["張署長榮興：他們認為的是他們犯罪可能會比較輕，這就是法律上認知的不足嘛！第二個就是可能基於他經濟能力的狀況，對於詐騙集團說保證獲利，有金錢上的誘惑；第三個可能就是家庭上的因素。"],["李委員坤城：署長你現在講的都是原因，那要怎麼去做？"],["張署長榮興：我覺得第一個、最重要的就是一定要對識詐免疫力加強宣導，宣導的層面一定要讓他知道犯罪是有法律的刑責，而且父母親會負有連帶責任，以後這些……"],["李委員坤城：所以這個要跟教育部合作。"],["張署長榮興：對，有教育的部分，先在宣導部分來加強，另外就是我覺得我們最重要的是去查那個源頭啦！我們要查到底是誰教唆來做這些案件，也就是說這個集團的源頭是誰來教唆的，要把源頭查出來。另外就是其他部分，比如可能要提供其他就業什麼這些機會等，就可能需要勞動部提供一些機會，相關部會來做配合。我覺得最重要的就是從源頭這邊來處理，第一個從宣導做處理，第二個從我們偵查他們的教唆者、這些詐欺集團的核心份子來做處理。"],["李委員坤城：我請教一下內政部次長，我剛也聽了你回應了很多委員對於青少年詐欺比率愈來愈高的詢問，那你覺得還有哪些部分可以再做加強的？因為我剛剛聽到學校、教育、關懷團體等等，那還有哪些地方要加強？因為我看這比率是愈來愈高啊！"],["馬次長士元：跟各位委員報告，其實對青少年來講，第一個當然是金錢的誘惑是最重要的原因，那我們……"],["李委員坤城：會不會讓他們覺得說代價很小但是獲利很高？"],["馬次長士元：對，就是他的成本很低，所以造成……"],["李委員坤城：尤其他們大部分是擔任車手這個角色，刑責是比較低，司法院今天也有列席，我想請問一下，就是有關詐騙的少年或是青少年，目前是不是大部分都還是以保護管束或是訓誡居多？"],["傅法官曉瑄：謝謝委員，我是司法院少家廳傅曉瑄。委員剛剛提到我們的少年如果觸犯詐欺相關案件時候的處理，我們現在有分為兩個部分，一個部分是少年保護事件的處理方式，另外一個部分是少年刑事案件處理方式，剛剛委員詢問說是什麼樣的保護處分居多，依我們現在手上的紀錄，以少年保護事件來講，是保護管束的比率最多，112年顯示跟詐欺有關的保護處分執行狀況占45.62%，是以保護管束為最大宗。"],["李委員坤城：那所以你覺得有效果嗎？就是在這個處分上面有效果嗎？"],["傅法官曉瑄：報告委員，針對詐欺的相關案件，我們司法院少家廳現在有推行一個高風險保護管束的試辦計畫，是從今年113年2月1日開始推行，在6月中有一個短期的執行成效檢討，目前看起來是有一定的成效的，但是後續還要等數據量比較多的時候才可以據以分析。"],["李委員坤城：包含我在內，大家都很關心這個問題，大家其實也清楚這包括教育、家長或是多元的關懷的團體，當然刑責是最後的一部分，我想的是你們要怎麼樣對此去做一個統合，把這個橫向聯繫做好，要不然我看3月份其實已經有一份報告了，也是在講如何防止青少年詐騙案件愈來愈多，我看3月份那個報告其實跟今天這個報告也差不了多少，這就變成相同的問題我們一直重複在討論，但是數字沒有因此而降低，所以我才會問到底是哪一些部分還可以再做加強的，真的還是希望各位回去後，在各自的業務上面再看看有哪些部分可以再做處理的，否則上半年度問的東西下半年度又問一次，但其實數據一直在增加而提出來的方法都是一樣的。謝謝各位！","我最後再問一下數發部，我看了網路詐騙的通報查詢網，發現Meta還是詐騙的大戶，請問你們有每天查看你們自己的詐騙查詢網嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：目前這一個部分Meta還是比較多，但是他們已經有承諾在年底之前會把這個部分處理完。"],["李委員坤城：什麼意思？什麼叫把這部分處理完？"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為根據打詐四法，我們訂定了子法部分，針對這些廣告的平台，它必須要提出法定代理人。"],["李委員坤城：都提出來了啊。"],["陳副署長慧敏：對，他們都提出來了。"],["李委員坤城：因為deadline是10月31號啊！"],["陳副署長慧敏：是，我們目前正在審查中，現在另外有一個部分就是針對廣告平台的部分要採實名制，這部分在年底之前他們會做完。"],["李委員坤城：我聽說實名制Google有先做了，是不是？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["李委員坤城：Google是哪時候做的？"],["陳副署長慧敏：昨天。"],["李委員坤城：昨天？所以就是若在Google要投放廣告，現在就是實名制了？"],["陳副署長慧敏：對。"],["李委員坤城：為什麼其他的還要等到你們的子法出來才願意做？"],["陳副署長慧敏：他們有在研議，好像是在程式規劃設計的部分稍微有點複雜，不太一樣。"],["李委員坤城：所以到年底有機會嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["李委員坤城：到年底，包含Line、臉書、TikTok都有辦法做到廣告都要實名制？"],["陳副署長慧敏：沒辦法也要有辦法。"],["李委員坤城：沒辦法也要有辦法？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK，謝謝。"],["陳副署長慧敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們下一位請葉元之、葉元之、葉元之不在場。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在場。","鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財不在場。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐不在場。","賴士葆、賴士葆、賴士葆不在場。","張啓楷、張啓楷、張啓楷不在場。","現在我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375276311eb72d2000275f16e2c62e3913b41d494314c3fac5e6771403a2bdfbe5105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"13:00:20 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ext":"準備好了不好意思衛福部部長謝謝部長請小鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠鼠"},{"start":30.185,"end":48.638,"text":"沒有要打臉啦我們只是說明清楚查清楚了沒你有沒有引用錯誤法條原來引用的法條可能不是那麼周全經過討論不是那麼周全所以你現在有私底下在修其他的法條希望能夠周全對不對對不對對不對所以你引用錯誤法條在第一時間開記者會打臉我你要不要跟我道歉"},{"start":63.683,"end":75.589,"text":"石耀署署長有沒有開記者會以及第三項人事案你們現在私底下請他走人因為他是哲學系這個部分查清楚了沒回答"},{"start":76.614,"end":103.013,"text":"你是不是有提供錯誤資訊給部長,讓部長不太知道的情況之下回答我,有沒有?對,所以是不是當時我所舉證的都是事實?你已經浪費了我一分多鐘,有沒有?部長,你要不要直接跟我道歉?"},{"start":104.941,"end":109.442,"text":"有那一個時空背景但是發現你們去請示其他部會說這樣子不適宜所以你們現在修整法條對不對跟全國百姓講一下你們是不是引用錯誤"},{"start":130.99,"end":159.472,"text":"是就是不是就不是嘛對我們現在就是這件事情我發生了以後我們社交組檢討就是說我那個55條法條引用事實上是不正確的那我們現在就開始用27條我不是說要讓你丟臉只是說你第一時間回答委員的東西是錯誤的你想要打臉我但事實上你們內部去檢討以後發現自己有錯趕快改進但是你們開記者會去打臉委員對每個委員來說公平嗎你們是不是應該加以去佐證"},{"start":160.871,"end":189.443,"text":"所以部長我再講一次進出口輸出役專案引用錯誤法條以及人事案你是不是應該跟全民道歉我想我們在10號時可以說是在發生事件以後非常緊急來這是有關於人民生命跟醫療用品所以你引用錯誤法條導致要害基金不賠所以要打消保法所以你要去逛百貨公司要記得累積點數然後還可以滿千送百"},{"start":190.752,"end":208.501,"text":"這就是錯誤所以我一直在講我也一心一意啊我擔心你做錯了然後讓我們要害經濟部賠償最後受害的是人民啊所以你的目的良善我的目的就不良善還是你要感受一下目的良善所以是不是有錯就更正"},{"start":216.477,"end":241.029,"text":"因為這是整個過程那也是整個過程的一個用最適當的一個沒關係後續我還有很多的料沒關係我們繼續來竟然看不出你的誠意看不出你願意改正我想全民都在看那部長最近勞動部一個市場的霸凌事件全國震驚現在各個立委都收到了這封信我們一一看一下"},{"start":241.829,"end":267.217,"text":"就是集管署的組長霸凌屬下的一個事件請問現在調查結果是如何我們昨天啟動調查一個禮拜之內會查清楚究責相關的流程到底要怎麼做誰要負責調查會不會立場偏薄我告訴你昨天已經一個勞動部他調查出來的結果大家全民能夠接受嗎他開的記者會全民能夠接受嗎"},{"start":268.197,"end":286.004,"text":"不要再有立場偏頗不要再為自己找藉口內部的調查全民都失望這就是為什麼我們需要聽證權為什麼要國會改革讓我們來調查才能夠找出事實而不是你們的內部調查全民都已經不相信了可是現在呢"},{"start":286.764,"end":298.747,"text":"又有這樣子的一個土皇帝就在你們衛福部集管署昨天我在這邊也一直講各個部會請注意把你們內部有相關案例都應該如實的找出來"},{"start":300.407,"end":324.999,"text":"昨天說兩個禮拜今天變一個禮拜我現在要通知你立場有沒有偏頗誰要來調查你要不要講清楚說明白絕對不偏頗我請事由機關署機關署委員好那我們現在是有找兩位外部的專家就是一個是法律專家一個是心理諮商的專家另外我們署內有兩個委員但是都跟這位組長不熟會組成委員會那會"},{"start":326.36,"end":346.997,"text":"主要就是說我們會先今天開始其實我們已經有一個匿名的問卷給這個我們的主員來同仁來填那根據那個問卷收來之後我們會去請這個委員來決定要來面談的一個同仁那這個部會也會找那個之前有離職的一個同仁來做詢問以上"},{"start":347.557,"end":364.474,"text":"我想事情已經發生已經有潛力了今天他開記者會不開還好一開全民爆炸相信你們應該有智慧不要重蹈覆轍最後我要提醒你中興大學申請了複設醫院案共499床你支不支持部長"},{"start":365.615,"end":391.052,"text":"我想這個都要牽涉到整個醫療資源的一個評估台中衛生局已經函送到衛福部審議我在10月17號也有關心此案將文轉給了衛福部你曉不曉得這個狀況目前教育部還沒回溫因為他是教育部體系的學校所以會有雙重主管我想雙重主管的問題教育部我會再來今天難得來到衛福部我希望部長你可以支持"},{"start":391.96,"end":415.475,"text":"在臺中這樣子醫療量能夠提升這是我們臺中市民還有民意代表該做的這部分麻煩你可以嗎我想我們會非常客觀的來評估來協助整個臺中的一個醫療資源能夠充分好最後我想波波醫生最近很多的報導都指出有這樣子的900個波波醫生我想請問你你的管控要如何"},{"start":416.115,"end":421.959,"text":"你知道他們都在哪裡執業嗎?這個部分你們有登記嗎?有醫事人員的系統可以追查到醫事登錄的一個職業場所嗎?有嗎?布博醫生報載指出有900個布博醫生"},{"start":439.685,"end":443.728,"text":"所以你有沒有相關的這些系統能夠追蹤這些人的醫事登錄職業場所有沒有"},{"start":468.097,"end":486.152,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":486.292,"end":490.933,"text":"臺中市民有知的權利就醫的選擇權所以我想請問部長在臺中地區有哪幾家醫療院所是有撥撥醫師牙醫師職業看診你可以告訴我們嗎這我們手頭上應該沒有這種資料"},{"start":510.276,"end":536.627,"text":"所以就是沒有掌握嗎?你要就是承認你跟全民承認你沒有這樣的資料你無法掌握嗎?我們是說好第一個就是醫師的考試一定要有執照然後他的繼續的教育訓練包括他的專科醫師的訓練還有他執業以後的繼續教育我想時間有限喔我會去追蹤這些案子我也跟你告訴我們今天所講的這三個案子麻煩你後續有相關的資料請給我們知道一下好的好的是好謝謝"},{"start":540.213,"end":541.561,"text":"響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（13時）對不起，我已經準備好了，不好意思。請衛福部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：食藥署署長一起，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，署長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：來，署長，昨天我們談了很多。部長，對於我生理食鹽水進口專案錯誤的法條引用，還有我點出了三項人事案有問題，你們在第一時間開記者會要打臉我，然後現在呢？你已經查清楚了沒？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有要打臉，我們只是說明清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：查清楚了沒？你有沒有引用錯誤法條？"],["邱部長泰源：原來引用的法條可能不是那麼周全，經過討論……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不是那麼周全，所以你現在有私底下在修其他的法條，希望能夠周全，對不對？對不對？對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在用十七之二，我跟委員也已經報告過了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你引用錯誤法條，在第一時間開記者會打臉我，你要不要跟我道歉？"],["邱部長泰源：我們沒有開記者會跟你……"],["羅委員廷瑋：食藥署署長，有沒有開記者會？以及第三項人事案，你們現在私底下請他走人，因為他是哲學系，這個部分查清楚了沒？回答。"],["邱部長泰源：請署長先回答一下。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，昨天我跟……因為每次……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你是不是有提供錯誤資訊給部長，讓部長不太知道的情況之下回答我，有沒有？"],["莊署長聲宏：沒有，報告委員，是當時我們其實還在查這件事情的時候。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以是不是當時我所舉證的都是事實？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，那個20……因為我昨天我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你已經浪費了我一分多鐘，有沒有？部長，你要不要直接跟我道歉？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，因為那個時候是我們還在收集資訊的時候，而且我有跟委員報告，我們當時最早引用第五十五條的原因是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有那一個時空背景，但是發現你們去請示了其他的部會說這樣子不適宜，所以你們現在在修整法條，對不對？"],["莊署長聲宏：對，沒錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：跟全國百姓講一下，你們是不是引用錯誤？是就是，不是就不是嘛。"],["莊署長聲宏：對，我們現在就是，這件事情發生了以後，我們食藥署檢討，我們引用法條第五十五條事實上是不正確的，我們現在就開始用第二十七之二條……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我不是要讓你丟臉，只是你第一時間回答委員的東西是錯誤的，你想要打臉我，但事實上你們內部去檢討以後發現，自己有錯趕快改進，但是你們開記者會去打臉委員，對每個委員來說公平嘛？你們是不是應該加以去佐證？所以，部長，我再講一次，進口輸液專案引用錯誤法條以及人事案，你是不是應該跟全民道歉？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們食藥署可以說在發生事件以後，非常緊急來……這是有關於人民生命跟醫療用品，所以當初是要……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你引用錯誤法條導致藥害基金不賠，所以要打消保法，所以你要去逛百貨公司，要記得累積點數，然後還可以滿千送百？這就是錯誤。所以我一直在講……"],["邱部長泰源：我們真的是一心一意想要趕快解決這樣的問題……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我也一心一意啊！我擔心你做錯了，然後讓我們藥害基金不賠償，最後受害的是人民啊。所以你的目的良善，我的目的就不良善？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有、沒有、沒有，你……"],["羅委員廷瑋：還是你要感受一下「目的良善」？"],["邱部長泰源：我相信，我是完全相信委員是目的良善的想要……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以是不是有錯就更正？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這是整個過程啦，那也是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：看起來你要跟我拖到最後30秒。"],["邱部長泰源：整個過程用最適當的一個條文……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，後續我還有很多的料，沒關係，我們繼續來，既然看不出你的誠意，看不出你願意改正，我想全民都在看……"],["邱部長泰源：我們已經改正用更好的方式來處理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長。最近勞動部一個職場霸凌的事件，全國震驚，現在各個立委都收到了這封信，我們看一下PPT，就是疾管署的組長霸凌屬下的一個事件，請問現在調查的結果是如何？"],["邱部長泰源：我們昨天啟動調查，一個禮拜之內會查清楚、究責。"],["羅委員廷瑋：相關的流程到底要怎麼做，誰要負責調查，會不會立場偏頗？我告訴你，昨天已經一個勞動部，他調查出來的結果，全民能夠接受嗎？他開的記者會，全民能夠接受嗎？不要再有立場偏頗，不要再為自己找藉口，內部的調查全民都失望，這就是為什麼我們需要聽證權。為什麼要有國會改革？讓我們來調查才能夠找出事實，而不是你們的內部調查，全民都已經不相信了。可是現在又有這樣子的一個土皇帝，就在你們衛福部疾管署，昨天我在這邊也一直講，各個部會請注意，你們內部有相關案例都應該如實的找出來，昨天說兩個禮拜，今天變一個禮拜，我現在要通知你，立場有沒有偏頗，誰要來調查，你要不要講清楚說明白？"],["邱部長泰源：絕對不偏頗，我請疾管署說明。"],["莊署長人祥：委員好。我們現在有找兩位外部的專家，其中一個是法律專家，一個是心理諮商的專家，另外我們署內也有兩個委員，但是都跟這位組長不熟，會組成委員會，主要就是說我們會先……今天開始其實我們已經有一個匿名的問卷給我們的同仁來填寫，問卷收回來之後，我們會請委員來決定要來面談的同仁，這個部分也會找之前離職的同仁來詢問。以上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想事情已經發生，已經有前例了，今天他開記者會，不開還好，一開全民爆炸，相信你們應該有智慧不要重蹈覆轍。最後我要提醒你，中興大學申請了附設醫院案，共499床，你支不支持？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個都要牽涉到整個醫療資源的評估，那……"],["羅委員廷瑋：臺中衛生局已經函送到衛福部審議了，我在10月17號也有關心此案，將文轉給了衛福部，你曉不曉得這個狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：請醫事司說明。"],["劉司長越萍：目前教育部還沒回文，因為它是教育部體系的學校，所以會有雙重主管。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想雙重主管的問題，教育部我會再來問，今天難得衛福部來列席，我希望部長可以支持，讓臺中的醫療量能能夠提升，這是我們臺中市民還有我們民意代表該做的，這個部分麻煩你，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：了解，我想我們會非常客觀的評估，協助整個臺中的醫療資源能夠充分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。最後，關於波波醫生，最近很多報導都指出有這樣子的900個波波醫生，我想請問你要如何管控？你知道他們都在哪裡執業嗎？這部分你們有登記嗎？有醫事人員的系統可以追查到醫師登錄的執業場所嗎？有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個委員所垂詢的這個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：波波醫生。"],["邱部長泰源：說900個是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：報載指出有900個波波醫生。"],["邱部長泰源：現在在等那個……等牙醫嘛？"],["劉司長越萍：不是、不是、不是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不只是牙醫，波波醫生。對不起，部長……"],["邱部長泰源：喔，你說那個名單喔？"],["羅委員廷瑋：您沒有在狀況內，報刊登載得這麼大，900個波波醫生，網路都在討論。"],["邱部長泰源：OK、OK，我知道，900個那個名單啦。我想我們衛福部就是認執照嘛，你就是要有執照才能執業……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你有沒有相關的系統能夠追蹤這些人的醫事登錄、執業場所，有沒有？民眾想要知道的是這個。"],["邱部長泰源：如果有名字的話，你說。"],["劉司長越萍：委員，我補充一下。只要是中華民國合格的醫師，我們有醫事管理系統會知道他在哪裡執業，可是學歷這件事情並不在我們登錄系統裡面。以上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想名單牽涉到個資，我們都尊重，但是，部長，要怎麼增加民眾的信任度，這才是本席真正在乎的，臺中市民有知的權利，有就醫的選擇權。所以我想請問部長，在臺中地區有哪幾家醫療院所有波波醫師、牙醫師執業看診，你可以告訴我們嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們手頭上應該沒有這種資料。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以就是沒有掌握嘛。那你就承認，你跟全民承認你沒有這樣的資料，你無法掌握嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：我們是守好第一個就是醫師的考試，一定要有執照，然後他的繼續教育訓練，包括專科醫師的訓練，還有他執業以後的繼續教育，這是我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想時間有限，我會去追蹤這些案子，我也要告訴你，我們今天所講的這三個案子，麻煩你，後續有相關的資料，請給我們指導一下。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，好的。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。接續我們請張雅琳委員質詢。","肚子餓的後面那邊可以先吃，沒關係，要善待自己。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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AI的系統我們增加那個抽查率抽查的高危險性的抽查率所以"},{"start":184.044,"end":202.495,"text":"後來抽中的率比例就會比較高第二個件事是因為現在有實案我們有很多都是逐批查驗那逐批查驗以後後來就會檢查的比較高這是第一就是要回復委員為什麼最近的抽查的比例有涵那個實案問題的越來越高第二個就是剛剛委員在問這個"},{"start":204.036,"end":223.66,"text":"紅黃綠燈"},{"start":223.72,"end":245.88,"text":"那我就提醒現在其實不只台灣內部啦就國際環境上食品安全問題其實也在變得比較我覺得環境面變得比較更嚴峻啦你就發現那個食品安全問題其實但我也跟你講我覺得跟我們的環境變化包括現在科技發展還是有點關係所以食品安全的那個問題也變得更加的複雜所以希望我們的衛福再努力一下"},{"start":246.42,"end":269.645,"text":"最後一個根據食藥署統計110年到112年有2220批次的食品不合格但是只有1.04%的批次被要求銷毀其他都是採退運處理那這種退運的方式是一個合適的方式嗎請教部長我想應該按照我們現在的法規來落實"},{"start":273.134,"end":279.846,"text":"因為過去你也知道曾經發生退運之後他又換一個方式又跑回來嘛有發生過在蘇安紅事件上就曾經遇過"},{"start":283.879,"end":291.584,"text":"蘇丹紅鬧得很淡這麼做那代表其他部分基本上為什麼不這麼做呢蘇丹紅可以這麼做其他部分為什麼不這麼做我們再回去研究一下跟委員報告"},{"start":308.851,"end":308.871,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1085,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時54分）主席，有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。近年屢屢爆出各種層出不窮的食安事件，尤其今年剛開始的時候爆出很多件，沸沸揚揚。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員智強：但是最近我在追蹤後續關於食安的問題，有些問題可能要就教一下部長。比方說食藥署顯示香辛料抽驗不合格的比例，從111年的5.9%爆增到112年的16.5%，今年甚至還有所謂的蘇丹紅事件。你認為目前為什麼會這麼大幅度的爆增呢？這是不是反映我們邊境查驗遇到一些問題呢？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，當然社會比較關注到食安，查緝的量能就必須增加，如果有任何違反食安的問題就會呈現出來，所以是不是這樣子，它的事件就會比較呈現？我想，把事件呈現出來，然後去把它解決，應該是一個正面的方向。重要的是我們有沒有大家一起努力，來落實我們食安五環，來保障我們人民食安的健康。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，當然你可以講查驗，我支持查驗的量要大，這樣子涵蓋面就比較夠。可是我今天也是要提醒一下，目前來看，真的我覺得我們食品安全的問題跟威脅其實越來越大，這點希望衛福部能夠多加注意。比方說國際食品安全的警訊，食藥署紅黃綠燈資訊的發布量，從109年的414則，到112年大增為1,849則。今年截止到7月，已經到了1,353則，推估全年會到2,300則，甚至會首次出現紅燈的警訊。","我在想，現在這個問題，坦白講，如果從414到所謂的2,300，那已經是將近5倍多了。這麼嚴重的狀況，不知道目前衛福部因應的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我請莊署長回答。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，第一個先回覆委員剛剛在問部長的，為什麼我們檢查的比例持續升高。跟委員報告的是，我們現在第一個就是透過AI系統增加高危險性的抽查率，所以後來抽中的比例就會比較高；第二件事是因為現在有食安，我們有很多都是逐批查驗，逐批查驗以後，後來就會檢查得比較高。這是要回覆委員為什麼最近抽查的比例含食安問題的越來越高。","第二個就是剛剛委員在問紅黃綠燈這些事情，我們是一直持續監視國際的警訊。如果這一批產品國外有警訊，但是我們臺灣沒有進口，我們就是用綠燈；如果這批有進來，我們就會標示為紅燈，接著就開始持續追蹤、監測。"],["羅委員智強：好。那我就提醒，現在其實不只臺灣內部，國際環境上食品安全的問題，我覺得環境面變得更嚴峻啦！你就發現食品安全問題其實跟我們的環境變化，也包括現在科技發展還是有點關係，食品安全的問題也變得更加地複雜，所以希望衛福部再努力一下。"],["莊署長聲宏：是。"],["羅委員智強：最後一個，根據食藥署統計110年到112年有2,220批次的食品不合格，但是只有1.04%的批次被要求銷毀，其他都是採退運處理。請教部長，這種退運的方式是一個合適的方式嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想應該按照我們現在的法規來落實。"],["羅委員智強：因為你也知道，過去曾經發生退運之後，它換一個方式又跑回來嘛！有發生過，在蘇丹紅事件上就曾經遇過啊！"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，如果現在查出蘇丹色素，我們一律是銷毀，不得退運。"],["羅委員智強：對，但我不是只講蘇丹紅，你是因為蘇丹紅鬧得很大所以這麼做，其他的部分為什麼不這麼做呢？你蘇丹紅可以這麼做，其他部分為什麼不這麼做？"],["莊署長聲宏：我們回去研究一下，再跟委員報告。"],["羅委員智強：好，把報告整理給我啦！我是覺得，基本上人民食安的保障還是要以最嚴格的標準。既然蘇丹紅可以這麼做，為什麼其他的項目不能這麼做？請把報告給我好不好？"],["莊署長聲宏：好。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定用嚴格的方式來保障我們人民的食安，請委員放心。我們再跟委員報告。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅智強委員，謝謝部長。","你們兩個要不要換？你要是換了，就讓你先講，我有講你講完後要吃飯了。"],["張委員雅琳：我有跟他講，他說不要換的。"],["主席：好。我們請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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proporto 112、113因為有前瞻建設所以才突破1%但是如果我們現在審明年預算回到沒有1%只剩下0.92%因為沒有前瞻了我們新年度的預算只有290億下頁但如果才化法被修惡了被惡修了文化預算就腰斬雪上加霜了我必須整理出這個數字讓所有文化部門的同仁要"},{"start":139.753,"end":156.852,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":159.431,"end":182.997,"text":"我希望大家要有危機要搶救我們的文化預算下一頁我也去精算了文化部的新興計畫有四項這當中還包括補助地方場館博物館地方文化館非常多高達5.85億也包括補助台南的案內影視基地2.02億這些很多新興計畫是受惠於地方的而延續性計畫的十項裡頭"},{"start":185.457,"end":211.043,"text":"厲十五期的文資修復是各個縣市都有也包括我們要加強對桃園市立美術館的興建的補助還有黑潮計畫、台流29億等等。如果新興計畫、延續性計畫加起來14項可能受影響132.5億的文化預算被搬走了而這些業務不是地方政府能夠執行的耶。"},{"start":212.375,"end":231.72,"text":"所以大家要有這樣的危機意識下一頁我就講兩件我請你們來未雨綢繆如果才化法通過了被修正了我們的文化禮金啊19.5億可能就受影響了今年我們還同步推動13到15歲的事辦嘛對不對"},{"start":234.381,"end":256.894,"text":"加起來可能209萬個青年學子從13到22歲不再享有國家的文化福利透過文化禮金讓大家進行文化的禁用文化的消費在下一頁又如同歷史舞棋的文資保存如果前瞻沒有了"},{"start":257.654,"end":281.8,"text":""},{"start":281.94,"end":305.828,"text":"教科文是憲法唯一一個有強制保障比例15%的憲法保障。如果財化法受了影響,中央的財源各部會都會受到波及,而憲法保障文化預算15%教科文,我們就要優先利用這個憲法的武器保護我們的文化預算。部長你認同嗎?"},{"start":308.564,"end":320.809,"text":"我今天無非是要拋出才化法大家不要覺得跟你無關跟文化大有關係中央執行的從地方管社到文化資產從表演藝術視覺藝術到影視影產業都需要中央來帶頭"},{"start":325.871,"end":328.473,"text":"我希望我們大家欲做準備為與籌謀也要一起來發聲搶救文化預算。才化法的修正勢必要三思而後行。我們一起加油,後續再討論。謝謝,謝主席。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1070,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時58分）謝謝主席！好久不見，回到教文會，有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：吳委員您好！"],["吳委員思瑤：許久沒有回來教文會，突然發覺文化議題變得好政治，實在有點感觸良多。剛剛說的公視那個節目：「哈囉！你給問嗎？」，吳思瑤有上過。同樣的選區，同樣的、主要的國民黨競爭對手，他也有上過，我用這個例子來說明公共電視已經儘可能的做到平衡。基本上，我認為，透過優質節目的製播，讓更多的公民來關切民主社會所進行的選舉，我覺得這不應該把它污名化或罪惡化。當然，這要做到政黨平衡，這個我支持；但是就我選區的個案，我可以來做一個親身的歷證，吳思瑤參加、受邀了，我主要的競爭對手、國民黨籍的候選人也有參與。","今天我來講，就預算論預算，如果未來的財劃法修正通過，文化預算是重災區，我們要來啟動防範跟因應。如果6,612億元的財劃法最終是這個版本的話，中央政府可以使用的預算、可用財源就只剩下4,159億元。然後文化預算長期以來是弱勢，1%的天花板一直以來都難以超越，在我們執政之後，蔡英文總統曾經在108年突破1%，到了112、113年，因為有前瞻建設，所以才突破1%。但是如果我們現在審查明年的預算回到沒有1%，只剩下0.92%，因為沒有前瞻計畫了，那我們新年度的預算就只有290億元。但如果財劃法被修惡了、被惡修了，文化預算就會腰斬、雪上加霜了，我必須要整理出這個數字來讓所有文化部門的同仁都武裝起來捍衛文化預算。如果我們扣除法定義務支出，然後再扣除可能受財劃法影響的文化支出，未來文化可用的財源一年只剩下129億元，腰斬變成一半，我希望大家要有危機意識，要搶救我們的文化預算。我也精算了，文化部的新興計畫有4項，當中還包括補助地方場館、博物館和地方文化館，這部分的預算非常多，高達5.85億，這裡面也包含補助臺南岸內影視基地2.02億，這些新興計畫都是受惠於地方的。而在10項的延續性計畫裡，歷時五期的文資修復是各縣市都有，也包括我們要加強對桃園市立美術館興建的補助；還有黑潮計畫、臺流的29億元等等。新興計畫和延續性計畫加起來總共有14項可能會受到影響，有132.5億的文化預算被搬走了，而這些業務不是地方政府能夠執行的耶！所以大家要有危機意識。","我就講2件，我要請你們未雨綢繆，如果財劃法通過了、被修正了，我們的文化禮金19.5億可能就受影響了。今年我們還同步推動13到15歲的試辦，對不對？從13到22歲，加起來可能有209萬個青年學子不再享有國家的文化福利，可以透過文化禮金來讓大家進行文化的近用與文化的消費。又如同歷時五期的文資保存，如果前瞻計畫沒有了，財劃法又造成我們歷時五期的預算斷炊了，未來受影響的金額可能高達140億元。","我的時間到了，我只有4分鐘，但我必須要講300億元的文化預算。所以部長，很抱歉！沒有時間讓你多回答，但是我要提醒，我相信主席也非常關心文化，大家一起不分黨派。教科文是憲法唯一一個有強制保障15%比例的，如果財劃法受影響了，中央的財源和各部會都會受到波及，而憲法保障教科文預算必須占15%，那我們就要優先利用這個憲法武器來保護我們的文化預算，部長你認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：完全認同。"],["吳委員思瑤：我今天無非是要拋出──大家不要覺得財劃法跟你無關，這跟文化大有關係，中央執行的業務，從地方館舍到文化資產；從表演藝術、視覺藝術到影視音產業都需要中央來帶頭。我希望我們大家要預做準備、未雨綢繆，也要一起來為搶救文化預算發聲，財劃法的修正勢必要三思而後行，我們一起加油，後續再討論，謝謝！謝謝主席和部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員，歡迎常常回來教文委員會質詢。部長先請回。我還是要非常感謝思瑤委員，今天有這麼多的委員都幫忙關心我們桃園市立美術館，不過中央是補助和給預算，執行還是地方政府，所以在財劃法還沒有通過之前，還是請部長先把我們的預算留著，謝謝。","接下來有請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員不在。","伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員皆已發言完畢，另有賴惠員委員及王美惠委員提書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752df685bec0ebc05afed5a0382e2f733d91d494314c3fac5e6296ad41e3562adc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:48:34 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法律代表人對 那他們目前都已經提出都已經提出是 那我們在審理中在審理中是"},{"start":131.26,"end":157.16,"text":"那這個流程你預估大概什麼時候可以正式完成因為大家期待非常的高是那目前就是我們這個禮拜五我們會做一個審查第一次審查會議禮拜五明天第一次審查會議對然後確認完了以後呢就是其實我們是雙向進行就是他的代理人就是審查然後還有一部分就是說還是競速的要求他們"},{"start":157.86,"end":175.852,"text":"把他們的一些就是怎麼去改善的部分去做一個處理對那請教你們的KPI指標的日期大概是什麼多久時間我們目前是目前已知就是說各家的業者他12月底之前一定都會都會完成"},{"start":177.333,"end":195.246,"text":"就是實名制就是廣告業者然後針對廣告平台的部分他們的實名制的部分他們年底之前一定都會完成那我們今天收到最新的訊息是Google它已經執行了"},{"start":195.786,"end":196.466,"text":"英國2023年通過《線上安全法》"},{"start":215.912,"end":231.941,"text":"他們會要求社群的媒體以及搜尋引擎的平台如果有不法必須依法迅速移除這些內容不得透過這種演算法去退波這是非常重要如果沒有配合封鎖的觸及到處罰的網站"},{"start":237.944,"end":256.583,"text":"他呢可以裁處喔他是裁處其全球年營業額10%的這個罰款也就是因為這樣子英國敢罰所以他們的效果真的呈現所以我再次請教我們書法部你會不會會不會有沒有這個開罰的決心"},{"start":259.966,"end":283.018,"text":"如果說他們有違法的話,我們一定會移送減掉的部分,沒有問題。一定是開罰的決心嘛,是嗎?是,是。好,那也就是說你們既然法也有了,而且執行資了,也有上方保健了,那在這樣的情況下,你預期,你們預期,是不是明年我們的這個,這個被打詐的金額會下降?"},{"start":283.698,"end":300.315,"text":"你們的預估呢?預期效果我們的預估就是明年就是各個部會合作之下明年的打詐一定會金額跟數量一定會往下掉一定會往下降我也勉勵之加油接下來我請司法跟法務部"},{"start":301.596,"end":321.368,"text":"那因為過去有重大的詐欺犯如藍道等被披露但是因為他的共犯底下會一案接一案所以在這樣的情況之下呢但是我們很努力在抓可是到最後呢都是怎麼樣侵犯甚至緩刑"},{"start":322.688,"end":342.54,"text":"甚至有一天就不用關啊一天也不用關就緩刑在這樣的一個情況之下他得以持續的再犯持續的再犯那今年更有出現了洗錢90億的這個詐團共犯那也只有判了6個月到1年不等結果全部緩刑4年"},{"start":343.905,"end":368.865,"text":"引起社會的嘩然在這樣的情況之下可以說我國的法則並不是說清但是問題是出在審判實務上詐欺侵犯侵犯的例子讓他可以在社會上不斷的來串流那這怎麼辦呢所以本席要請教我們要怎麼改進我們要怎麼改進"},{"start":371.277,"end":398.163,"text":"你抓到了你一樣啊就是只有緩刑啊那緩刑他還是一樣繼續騙啊那民眾繼續糟糕啊那怎麼辦我們會因為打詐狀況已經過了齁那我們本部呢原理就是就是對高額詐欺跟複合的詐欺的刑度這部分已經生效了那我們這花行齁我們韓美各檢察機關對重大詐欺的一個犯罪齁"},{"start":398.983,"end":409.714,"text":"要具體求刑 打詐專法50條要具體求刑具體求刑那43條44條那個也都是有比較加重或者有提高的一個刑度比那個刑罰30條就依照打詐專法對我們會具體求刑因為現在輕判的問題的確是"},{"start":416.08,"end":429.811,"text":"有比較 這個要請那個司法院來回答那我想我們這邊如果說有輕判的話所以你已經發案通令 法務部那個給各檢察機關 各檢察機關如果說有輕判的話我們也希望就是說請檢察官提起上訴好 我們請司法院"},{"start":431.464,"end":459.828,"text":"國約好關於這部分有關加重詐欺的量刑部分我們最近才有針對電信詐欺的部分有做一個量刑的斟酌事項請各法院能斟酌量刑這部分我們一直有做一些量刑工具的研擬那也希望法院我們也宣導法院在量刑的時候要做妥適量刑的回覆社會對法院對所謂的詐欺案件的厭惡跟期待這部分我們會持續再努力好 那我最後請內政部"},{"start":464.147,"end":492.727,"text":"如果相關單位我講青少年的議題我們就針對因為現在這個問題很困擾的所有的家長青少年涉詐的人數攀升我們的政府應該要去重視我們看到在2017年首度超過1萬人全國青少年詐騙人數這太恐怖了那所以從2019年到2022年每年至少都是9000人以上"},{"start":493.527,"end":514.876,"text":"都是9000人以上 這個是統計數字告訴我們但是 如果這個是險性隱性再加進來 那更恐怖涉詐的人 從12歲到18歲的少年那 一直在增加而且是兩成的比例在增加所以本席要請教 政府對於青少年的這個涉詐"},{"start":516.294,"end":541.014,"text":"你這個涉嫌你要怎麼樣去防範要怎麼樣錯失那同時在我們整個求職詐騙人就非常的多孩子畢業之後他要去求職結果就被這個求職詐騙了這個真是苦不堪言在這樣的情況之下包括了求職網站、APP政府你要怎麼樣有效的去宣導先從內政部說一下吧"},{"start":541.564,"end":563.856,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想這個青少年社詐的問題我們很頭痛因為通常犯罪集團你很頭痛讓我們社會不知道該怎麼辦你要拿出方案啦我們犯罪集團就是他會利用這個青少年本身他未滿18歲然後有恃無恐這樣的一個心態然後來誘使他犯罪這個大家都知道你要怎麼應對"},{"start":564.696,"end":585.275,"text":"我們現在做法有幾個第一個就是學校端的部分我們目前跟學校端在做這個所謂的法治教育這是第一個那第二個就是說在家庭的部分目前我們在整個追究這個青少年色詐的犯罪的部分我們會去連帶的去追究這個家長的責任這個在家庭的部分我們會要求連帶家長的責任再來就是說"},{"start":588.318,"end":606.658,"text":"在打詐四法通過之後,包括速發布,對於詐騙廣告的攬阻,尤其是在求職廣告、打工廣告的部分,我們希望能夠透過在網路上面能夠把這個東西阻絕掉,讓青少年能夠步入正軌。另外,也有跟委員在補充就是說,教育部那邊我們也會跟他們合作,"},{"start":607.759,"end":634.99,"text":"正常的打工正常的這樣的一個青少年的求職的部分來合作讓他們能夠找到正當的管道而不是透過這個謝謝內政部我想這是橫跨不管是勞動部不管是教育部我希望把你剛剛所說的精進方案你整理一個方案給本席因為連你都說頭痛那我們的民眾家長不知道該怎麼辦好不好你多久時間可以整理一個你們精進方案給本席"},{"start":635.871,"end":639.62,"text":"報告委我們行政院的打詐指揮中心我們一個月之內整理給委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1432,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時48分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，首先邀請數發部。"],["主席：麻煩數發部。"],["黃簡任視察國源：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：數發部，打詐阻詐網路平台，我們的社群未來要怎麼樣來協助？我們的打詐專法規定，法案規定一定規模的網路廣告平台業者需要在臺指定法律的代表。因為以往我們怎麼罰都罰不到，所以在這樣的情況之下，我們終於打詐專法出來了，規定他必須要在臺灣指定法律代表，並且要配合主管機關停止播放詐騙的廣告，違反情節重大者，最高可處1億元以下。數發部終於在9月份的時候公布打詐專法納管的平台，包括本席所說的這些各大平台都納在這裡面，所以，本席要請教我們有沒有這個決心要做？如果有不法的時候，必須要做開罰的動作，而且我們的預期效益，你認為會如何？"],["陳副署長慧敏：謝謝委員，針對打詐專法的部分，立法院通過以後，我們在執行上面就比較容易，這部分非常謝謝委員能夠……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：已經給你尚方寶劍，你們要怎麼做？"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為這個部分我們還有7個子法陸陸續續在訂定，其中針對網路廣告平臺業者的部分，要求他們要提出在臺灣的代理人部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，法律代表人。"],["陳副署長慧敏：他們目前都已經提出，我們正在審理中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預估這個流程大概什麼時候可以正式完成？因為大家期待非常的高。"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們這個禮拜會進行第一次審查會議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明天禮拜五會進行第一次審查會議？"],["陳副署長慧敏：對，其實我們是雙向進行，就是對他的代理人進行審查，還有一部分就是儘速要求他們把他們該改善的部分去做一個處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教你們的KPI指標日期，大概是多久時間？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們目前已經知道，各家業者在12月底之前，一定都會完成……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：12月底以前？"],["陳副署長慧敏：對，就是廣告業者針對廣告平臺的部分，他們在實名制的部分，年底之前一定都會完成。我們今天收到最新的訊息是Google已經執行了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：Google已經執行？"],["陳副署長慧敏：對，Google率先執行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常好，在立法院通過的打詐專法裡頭，我們希望行政部門必須努力執行之！本席再請教一點，英國在2023年的時候通過線上安全法，他們要求社群媒體以及搜尋引擎的這些平臺，如有不法，必須依法迅速移除這些內容，不得透過演算法去推播，這個非常重要，如果沒有配合，就封鎖這個觸法的網站，還可以裁處其全球年營業額10%的罰款，也就是因為英國敢罰，所以他們的效果真的呈現出來。所以本席再次請教數發部，你們有沒有開罰的這個決心？"],["陳副署長慧敏：如果他們有違法，我們一定會移送檢調部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定有開罰的決心是嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然法也有了，有了尚方寶劍，而且執行之，在這樣的情況下，你們預期明年被詐騙的金額會下降嗎？你們的預估、預期效果如何？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們預估在各個部會合作之下，明年打詐的金額跟數量，一定會往下掉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定會往下降，我也在此勉勵之，加油！"],["陳副署長慧敏：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，我要請教司法院跟法務部。過去有重大詐欺犯罪如「藍道」等被披露，因為他們犯案是一案接一案，我們很努力地在抓，可是最後都被輕判，有的甚至一天都不用關就判緩刑，在這樣的情況下，讓他得以持續再犯。今年更出現洗錢90億的詐團共犯，也只判了六個月到一年不等，且全部緩刑四年，引起社會譁然。其實我國的罰則並不輕，問題出在審判實務上，對詐欺輕判！輕判的例子，讓他可以在社會上不斷的竄流，要怎麼辦呢？請問我們要怎麼改進？抓到了也一樣，就是緩刑啊！判緩刑之後，他還是一樣繼續騙，民眾繼續遭殃，那怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為打詐專法已經過了，本部對高額詐欺跟複合詐欺，所研擬的刑度，這部分已經生效了；我們也發函給各檢察機關，對重大詐欺犯罪要具體求刑，因為打詐專法第五十條要求具體求刑，第四十三條、第四十四條也都有加重或是提高刑度，比刑法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就依照打詐專法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們會具體求刑……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：通例？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為輕判的問題，的確是有比較……這個要請司法院來回答，我想如果說有輕判……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們已經發函通令，法務部？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是給各檢察機關，如果有輕判的話，我們希望檢察官提起上訴。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們請司法院來說明。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。有關加重詐欺量刑的部分，我們最近有針對電信詐欺的部分做了量刑審酌事項，請各法院能斟酌量刑，我們對這部分一直有做一些量刑工具的研擬，也宣達法院在量刑的時候，要做妥適量刑，來回應社會對詐欺案件的厭惡跟期待。我們在這個部分會持續努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後要請教內政部，有關青少年的部分，因為這個問題困擾所有的家長，亦即青少年涉詐的人數攀升，政府真的應該要重視。我們看到全國青少年詐騙人數在2017年首度超過一萬人，這太恐怖了！從2019年到2022年每年至少都是九千人以上，這是統計數字告訴我們的，是顯性的數字，如果再將隱性加進來，那就更恐怖！從12歲到18歲涉詐的少年，一直在增加，而且是以兩成的比例在增加。請教政府對於青少年涉詐、涉險，要怎麼樣去防範？有什麼樣的措施？","同時在求職過程中，受到詐騙的案例仍舊非常多，孩子畢業之後去求職，結果就遭到求職詐騙，真是苦不堪言；包括求職網站app的部分，政府要如何有效地去宣導？先從內政部說一下吧。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。青少年涉詐的問題，我們很頭痛，因為通常犯罪集團……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你都很頭痛，那我們社會也不知道該怎麼辦，你們要拿出方案！"],["馬次長士元：犯罪集團利用青少年本身未滿18歲，然後有恃無恐這樣的一個心態，來誘使他犯罪……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個大家都知道，你們要怎麼應對？"],["馬次長士元：我們現在有幾個做法，第一是學校端的部分，我們目前跟學校端在做所謂的法治教育；第二是家庭的部分，目前在追究青少年涉詐犯罪的部分，我們會連帶去追究家長的責任，這個在家庭的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是連坐法，連帶家長的責任。"],["馬次長士元：再來，就是在打詐四法通過後，包括數發部對於詐騙廣告的攔阻，尤其是求職廣告、打工廣告的部分，我們希望他們能夠在網路上面把這個東西阻絕掉，讓青少年能夠步入正軌。另外要跟委員再補充，在青少年正常打工、正常求職的部分，我們也會跟教育部合作，讓他們能夠找到正當的管道，而不是透過這種方式……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝內政部，這個問題橫跨好多部會，不管是勞動部或教育部，希望把你剛剛所說的精進方案整理出來給本席。因為如果連你都說頭痛，那我們的民眾與家長都不知道該怎麼辦，好不好？多久時間可以整理你們的精進方案給本席？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，行政院打詐指揮中心，我們一個月之內整理給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752272b08333cbb8769c3740404d340f2ad74ba16637283b6ccbebb33ff5aa7d9f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:53:14 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37,"text":"同意啊。"},{"start":98.363,"end":122.837,"text":"我希望說之後應該要調整過來就是兒少節目的話應該要多做點預算但是本席有發現一個問題就是你們在針對兒少節目的時候其實在去年有一個節目叫做Hello你給問嗎?不知道部長因為我剛有聽說部長是從來不看公共電視的是吧?我沒有說我從來不看公共電視但是幾乎不看公共電視所以胡董事長您知道有這個節目嗎?知道那這個節目呢現在呢停掉了嗎?"},{"start":127.979,"end":153.71,"text":"我們已經第一季做完以後就結束了。為什麼第一季做完就結束了?收視率不好?還是因為選舉結束了?那個時候就是想要有點反差,有小朋友來訪問政治人物。好,我要講的是,針對這個節目其實本席非常有意見的。這個節目是在什麼時候開始做的?去年10月,對不對?去年10月那收視比接非常接近選舉了。"},{"start":155.547,"end":155.847,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":179.082,"end":196.911,"text":"我要講,其實這是一個嚴重的問題啊。你們試圖用這個節目,哈洛你給問,用白話文帶領一群國小到高中的學生來試讀政治,可是在這個節目裡面其實你們已經有隱含著我未來這個要捧哪一個候選人。我覺得這個其實就是一個很嚴重會影響到競選不公平的問題。而這件事情現在由公共電視帶頭做起。"},{"start":205.762,"end":222.698,"text":"翁委員您很了解那個法律的規定是講競選活動期間所以我們是在競選活動期間之前這是第一個要說明第二個是我們當時我們就如果同仁要做這個節目我說一定要考慮到候選政黨的平衡所以他們的確是好所以我就說我請"},{"start":223.439,"end":243.916,"text":"觀眾謙虛"},{"start":243.916,"end":266.254,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":266.909,"end":266.929,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":289.716,"end":289.896,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1037,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時53分）有請部長和胡董事長。"],["主席：李部長跟胡董事長。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長和董事長好！我知道公共電視法去年有修法，所以已經解除政府捐贈公共電視經費的天花板，現在公共電視每年都可以得到文化部多少的預算補助？將近30億元吧！"],["李部長遠：總數是31億5,000萬元。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，差不多30億元。其中又有多少錢是去做兒童節目？"],["李部長遠：6億元。"],["翁委員曉玲：6億元。然後有多少經費是補助給TaiwanPlus？"],["李部長遠：TaiwanPlus是8億5,000萬元。"],["翁委員曉玲：8億5,000萬元。我要講的是，其實公共電視長期以來，基本上，在整個經營方向上，我認為是有問題的。我始終認為公共電視要做的是補足商業電視不足的節目，而兒少節目確實是現階段商業電視臺沒有辦法支撐或是有心想要來經營的節目內容。所以就公共電視的補助方向來講，我認為這是失衡的，應該要將更多的資源用來補助、製作兒少節目，不知道部長是不是同意我的看法？還有董事長？"],["李部長遠：同意。"],["翁委員曉玲：同意，我希望之後應該要調整過來，就是要多給兒少節目預算。但是本席有發現一個問題，就是針對你們的兒少節目，其實你們去年有製作一個節目，它叫做：「哈囉！你給問嗎？」，不知道部長？因為我剛剛聽說部長從來都不看公共電視，是嗎？"],["李部長遠：我沒有說我從來都不看公共電視。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是幾乎不看公共電視。胡董事長，你知道有這個節目嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：知道。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那這個節目現在停掉了嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：第一季做完之後就結束了。"],["翁委員曉玲：為什麼第一季做完就結束了？是收視率不好？還是因為選舉結束了？"],["徐總經理秋華：那個時候是想要有點反差，所以由小朋友來訪問政治人物。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我要講的是，針對這個節目，其實本席非常的有意見。這個節目是什麼時候開始做的？是去年10月對不對？去年10月是不是已經非常接近選舉了？"],["徐總經理秋華：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們邀請的政治人物裡面有沒有候選人？"],["徐總經理秋華：有，但是我們有按照選罷法的規定。"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？是每一個選區、每一個不同政黨的候選人你都有邀請嗎？"],["徐總經理秋華：我們有試圖平衡，但是有時候沒辦法那麼完美。"],["翁委員曉玲：請你們給我一個分析報告，就是你們這個節目邀請的候選人，在那個選區裡面，你們是邀請了誰？"],["徐總經理秋華：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：我要講，其實這是很嚴重的問題，你們試圖用這個節目：「哈囉！你給問嗎？」，用白話文帶領一群國小到高中的學生來識讀政治，可是在這個節目裡面，你們已經隱含未來你們要捧哪一個候選人，我覺得這個很嚴重，這有競選不公平的問題，而這件事情竟然是由公共電視帶頭做起。"],["胡董事長元輝：翁委員，你很瞭解法律的規定，那個是講競選活動期間，但是我們是在競選活動之前，這是第一個要說明的。第二個，當時同仁要做這個節目時，我有說一定要考慮政黨平衡，所以他們的確是朝這方向去做。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以我說了，請公共電視提供一份你們所謂的「政黨公平」，到底你們在那個選區裡面，你們是邀請了哪幾個政黨的候選人？我現在不是講在這個選區裡面，你只邀請這位候選人，這位可能是民進黨的；在另外一個選區，你邀請的是國民黨的候選人，這叫政黨公平，這不是政黨公平。","胡董事長，因為我們都是從學界來，你也知道我當過NCC的委員，我非常在意的是公共電視要如何維持它的中立性跟獨立性。可是每逢選舉階段我們就可以看到公共電視是中立的嗎？獨立的嗎？今天因為時間的關係，我沒有秀出公共電視這麼多年來的收視率之差、非常差，你們向來都是排名第二十幾名，雖然最近有進步，可是你們不要忘記，你們的經費來源都是由政府補助的。更何況我認為，公共電視在製作內容的設計上，你們的確沒有大的中心思想跟中心方向，以致於要常常去做一些跟政治有關的議題，這不會得到民眾的支持，以上。","因為時間的關係，我今天就提出這個，也請公共電視在2個星期內給我一份有關「哈囉！你給問嗎？」的節目評估報告，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","接下來楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","有請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752f0fc8adad59387ca5f16e2c62e3913b474ba16637283b6cc6e0888262ff463d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:44:34 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4.747,"end":61.064,"text":"這要證明啊,證明很重要對不對,所以這個部長就是你有很開放的那種思維,不會僵死在那個地方,所以你有同意說會改成樂生醫院嘛,這真的好聽多方考量啦,文資文史的歷史"},{"start":65.629,"end":78.986,"text":"他本身現在就是醫院嘛,對不對?有醫院的功能他本來就有醫院的功能嘛,所以證明很重要所以部長你認同把老人因法族也證明為壯世代嗎?嗯"},{"start":84.932,"end":85.252,"text":"當機是不是"},{"start":115.512,"end":141.881,"text":"有阿強的陰謀阿強的陰謀你現在時間上幫我停一下這一個有不是這一個是嗎OK好那你呢下一頁呢不對啊你弄到舊的是不是是不是你檔案剛才為什麼會跑掉"},{"start":145.199,"end":153.165,"text":"超高齡社會在41天就來臨對這樣來臨的一個社會你覺得他是一個悲慘世界"},{"start":173.36,"end":199.592,"text":"還是一個美麗新世界我們可以創造美麗新世界所以你認為他可以嘲笑美麗新世界一定要這樣做為什麼一定要這樣子嘛對不對沒得選擇一定要這樣子嘛齁因為為什麼要問這個問題喔這一個的你的信心跟你的想像會決定你的政策你的解方是如果你把它當作是悲慘世界你提出來就是悲慘解方"},{"start":200.592,"end":203.895,"text":"對哪一種思維?那你覺得我們現在政府普遍的大概都把他當作什麼?悲慘世界?"},{"start":215.871,"end":216.731,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":241.56,"end":258.418,"text":"因為這個少子高齡化社會定型影響層面很多啦那這個衛福部在這裡面扮演非常重要的角色不管是少子化不管是高齡化都是你們衛福部的事情因為其他部位都不想管"},{"start":260.795,"end":273.422,"text":"大家一起努力大家一起努力都沒有在管我剛才質詢文化部回來他們就整個就變一千萬而已而且還是做什麼那個就是各部會就是覺得60歲以後"},{"start":275.043,"end":275.243,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":307.418,"end":328.987,"text":"總之呢是不是要請衛福部我們現在整個基本上的認知就把這高齡者視為叫引法族為什麼要證明因為引法族每天包括大家討論的就是臥床的問題就是醫院的問題就是一種社會負債的問題安養晚年特殊對待"},{"start":330.697,"end":337.224,"text":"那衛福部可不可以把它翻轉成為你就停留在那邊我時間快到了你不要再變來變去了"},{"start":341.582,"end":365.219,"text":"那個變成壯世代想像他有30年的健康餘命這叫做美麗新世界30年健康餘命我們現在可以為他們做什麼我們應該要怎麼設計包括整個社福的一個的機構他們需要只脫離生理安全的需求而渴望自我實現他們希望能夠促進世代的循環"},{"start":367.268,"end":381.046,"text":"需要精彩的第三人聲OK這個就是OK所以呢好我前面我也跟那個講一下就是上個禮拜資訊月"},{"start":382.389,"end":411.09,"text":"我壯世代跟速發部合作辦了一個因為資訊院通常都是年輕人在玩電腦的地方我今年跟速發部合作辦了一個叫壯世代董資樂園董資訊的樂園而且你那個名稱要活潑一點董資董資因為他們有董資券嘛政府都有發董資券所以叫董資樂園你知道創造了什麼爆發壯世代人潮"},{"start":412.737,"end":433.601,"text":"所謂的你們所謂的銀髮族大批的銀髮族大概有幾萬人進入資訊業每一個人玩得不亦樂乎所以呢你看抒發部都可以這樣做衛福部可以這樣做嗎系各部會為什麼如果你過去都叫做樂齡什麼資訊區有人要去啦"},{"start":437.828,"end":455.463,"text":"為什麼你改變他一個身份當然當你在設計者當你把他當作勒領的時候你所做的一些規劃也就是會朝勒領的方向你把他當作壯士你就會朝壯士的方向去設計那參與者也是一樣"},{"start":456.892,"end":471.827,"text":"改變一點身份改變一點思維這就叫美好的新世界這叫做美好新世界它會創造很多我以前衛福部我們是不是可以一起努力來推動所以最後"},{"start":477.469,"end":487.296,"text":"最後一點就是我現在在推動撞促法撞促在政策的產業發展促進法我們要重要的一點"},{"start":488.904,"end":507.44,"text":"就是要做一個雙軌制雙軌制的一個現在除了照護性的政策之外是不是需要一個發展性的政策因為照護性的政策大概只能現在照顧16%的這個失能需要健康長照照顧的但是我們有84%龐大的這些"},{"start":511.403,"end":522.834,"text":"你完全沒有政策是不是可以發展壯世代的政策成為一個在我們未來不管在做社福的思維當中一個雙軌的一個制度這個請問部長你讚不讚成"},{"start":524.757,"end":548.593,"text":"創世代您的任期是相當的大那相關的年齡層其實我們每一個年齡層其實從出生以後到安老到善終所有的生命歷程我們都有需要照顧的任務所以請放心在創世代所包圍的範圍其實相關的一個健康照顧的政策都會有"},{"start":548.953,"end":549.133,"text":"謝謝吳委員繼續我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1035,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時44分）好，謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：部長好。看到你就很開心，因為像笑面佛一樣。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：現在這樣的環境，很需要你這樣子的人。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：帶給大家信心。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員指教。"],["吳委員春城：剛才涂委員就講到樂生療養院為什麼要改名，對不對？這要正名，正名很重要，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["吳委員春城：部長，你有很開放的思維，不會僵持在那個地方，所以你有同意說會改成「樂生醫院」嘛！這真的好很多了。"],["邱部長泰源：那個就多方考量啦！"],["吳委員春城：多方考量？"],["邱部長泰源：也有文資、文史的歷史。它本身現在就是醫院嘛！對不對？有醫院的功能。"],["吳委員春城：對，它本來就有醫院的功能，所以正名很重要。所以部長你願意、你認同把老人、銀髮族也正名為壯世代嗎？「老人」你覺得很好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：老人如果能夠很強壯，是我們很希望的事情。"],["吳委員春城：當然老人都同樣，但是你要給他一個名字啊！就像樂生一樣，「療養院」人家會覺得它是神經病醫院，是嗎？好啦，現在我們再往後面談。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["吳委員春城：當機了是不是？有阿共仔的陰謀！主席，時間上幫我停一下。不是這一個，下一頁呢？不對！你用到舊的是不是？檔案為什麼會跑掉？被蓋掉？為什麼會蓋牌？這是「阿共仔的陰謀」。是什麼原因再講，第一次發生這種問題。好，沒關係！我先談，你一邊解決。","部長，請教你，超高齡社會再41天就要來臨。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["吳委員春城：對即將來臨的社會，你覺得它是一個悲慘世界，還是一個美麗新世界？"],["邱部長泰源：我們可以創造美麗新世界。"],["吳委員春城：所以你認為它可以朝向美麗新世界？"],["邱部長泰源：一定要這樣做。"],["吳委員春城：一定要這樣子嘛！對不對？沒得選擇，一定要這樣子嘛！為什麼要問這個問題？你的信心跟你的想像會決定你的政策、你的解方。如果你把它當作是悲慘世界，你提出來的就是悲慘解方，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是，會有這種傾向，哪一種思維就會往哪一方面。"],["吳委員春城：對。那你覺得我們現在政府普遍的大概都把它當作什麼？悲慘世界？"],["邱部長泰源：政府？當然我們在追求健康臺灣、幸福社會，就是希望在高齡化的社會，我們所有的人能夠活得老、活得好、到處跑。"],["吳委員春城：因為少子高齡化社會定型影響層面很多，衛福部在這裡面扮演非常重要的角色。"],["邱部長泰源：是，責無旁貸。"],["吳委員春城：不管是高齡化，都是你們衛福部的事情，因為其他部會都不想管。"],["邱部長泰源：大家一起努力啦！"],["吳委員春城：都沒有在管啊！我剛才質詢文化部回來，他們整個就編1,000萬元而已啊！而且還是做什麼……各部會就是覺得60歲以後就沒用了，隨便應付就好了啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我也六十幾歲了。"],["吳委員春城：你六十幾歲，基本上你現在也是要自求多福，政府沒人要管你。但是這個越來越多、問題越嚴重，衛福部如果繼續這樣，一定會崩潰，你也是承受不住的。","總之，我們現在整個基本上的認知就是把高齡者視為銀髮族。為什麼要正名？因為包括大家討論的，銀髮族每天就是臥床的問題，就是醫院的問題，就是一種社會負債的問題，安養晚年，特殊對待。衛福部可不可以把它翻轉變成壯世代？想像他有30年的健康餘命，這叫做美麗新世界。30年健康餘命，我們現在可以為他們做什麼？我們應該要怎麼設計？包括整個社福的機構，他們需要脫離生理安全的需求，渴望自我實現；他們希望能夠促進世代的循環，需要精彩的第三人生。","我也跟部長講一下，上個禮拜資訊月，我壯世代跟數發部合作，因為資訊月通常都是年輕人在玩電腦的地方，我今年跟數發部合作，辦了一個叫「壯世代懂資樂園」，懂資訊的樂園。而且你那個名稱要活潑一點，懂資、懂資，因為他們有動滋券嘛！政府都有發動滋券，所以叫「懂資樂園」。你知道創造了什麼？爆發壯世代人潮，就是你們所謂的銀髮族。大批的銀髮族，大概有幾萬人進入資訊月，每一個人都玩得不亦樂乎。","你看數發部都可以這樣做，衛福部可以這樣做嗎？其實各部會都可以這樣做。過去都叫做什麼樂齡資訊區，沒人要去啦！為什麼？你改變他的一個身分，當你是設計者，當你把他當作樂齡的時候，你所做的一些規劃也就會朝樂齡的方向；你把他當作壯世代，你就會朝壯世代的那個方向去設計。參與者也是一樣，改變一點身分，改變一點思維，這就叫美好的新世界，它會創造很多。我也請衛福部，我們是不是可以一起努力來推動？"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個理念很好。"],["吳委員春城：對。最後一點，就是我現在在推動壯促法，壯世代政策產業發展促進法，重要的一點就是要雙軌制。現在除了照護性的政策之外，是不是需要一個發展性的政策？因為照護性的政策現在大概只能照顧16%的失能、需要長照照顧的，但是我們有84%龐大的樂齡是完全沒有政策的。是不是可以發展壯世代的政策，成為我們未來在做社福的思維當中一個雙軌的制度？這個請問部長贊不贊成？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，有關壯世代，您的range相當地大。我們每一個年齡層，其實從出生以後，到安老、到善終，所有的生命歷程我們都有需要照顧的任務，所以請放心，在壯世代所包括的範圍，其實相關的健康照護政策都會有。"],["吳委員春城：OK。因為這個思維不一樣，照顧者就是要資源，壯世代是要給資源的人，只要政府政策方向的引導。"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["吳委員春城：不要都從社福的思維，好像大家都是社福資源的一個爭奪戰，事實上壯世代可以減少很多社福的支出跟負擔。"],["邱部長泰源：了解，這個是非常好的方向。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接續我們請羅智強委員質詢。","稍後等張雅琳委員質詢完再休息20分鐘，她特別要求。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"mee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那我們衛福部跟立法院在這次保障健保點值協商什麼時候通過這組決議?部長記得嗎?"},{"start":276.923,"end":291.671,"text":"上次是9月吧好沒關係他是在113年7月16號7月16號那可是我看你們健保署網站最新公布的預估點值在113年第二季"},{"start":294.292,"end":312.139,"text":"那我們看到他這個浮動點值居然退回到108年的水準只剩下0.8847那不但沒有執行我們幾個月前的主決議居然這個健保點值還退步到5年前的水準這部分部長你有沒有注意到"},{"start":316.021,"end":337.091,"text":"我的意思是說不但沒有到0.95而且還退到108年的水準所以這部分我是認為部長之前不管在委員會還是在總質詢在媒體之前你都承諾會努力在明年6月我們達成健保點子保有0.95的目標"},{"start":338.672,"end":352.85,"text":"沒有錯吧這個部長在媒體也說過我一再重申我們會努力而且在努力之下以及現在行政院挹注的支援之下我相信應該會在有應該是會所以部長你也是設定這個目標嗎對對對"},{"start":354.912,"end":377.475,"text":"那可是我們現在看到不但沒有往這個目標前進而且還倒退到108年0847你現在提的這個部分是第二季啦對103年第二季就是4到6月啦那是自從大家的鼓勵之下那所以我們現在降勢用命支援益助希望"},{"start":378.86,"end":397.498,"text":"一直有提升其實像第三季在幾個區的一個點子就相當都有成長的不錯對我今天提出就是希望部長你不要忘記你的承諾跟自己說過的話要在明年6月達成那因為你現在"},{"start":398.519,"end":418.213,"text":"我看沒有往這目標前進還反而倒退我們是非常憂心部長一定是往前進的啦我怕部長說的這個會變成空頭支票大家會一起努力但是一定會前進的部長你說會朝這方向努力那可是我看到衛福部這次提出的公務預算"},{"start":419.013,"end":443.304,"text":"只有300多億那裡面300多億還包含了撥補國民年金的130多億那如果以這種預算你認為衛福部明年6月有辦法達到0.95嗎根本沒有看到你的預算你要怎麼做那個是公務預算因為其實所有的部門就只有衛福部"},{"start":444.524,"end":471.963,"text":"增加最多增加了300多億那你看喔你這個健保署提供的點子的數據再加上你的預算部長你明年6月底有信心達成嗎我們是很憂心看不到我們要單獨來看看那個健保這個部分就是說從公務很多從原來是應該在健保我們移出公務預算這個就100多億那部長你有信心達成嗎然後加上總額總額我們"},{"start":475.386,"end":486.484,"text":"這次最高推估也到達5.5我們會往這方面來努力那如果照你現在這樣的預算你認為明年6月你有信心達成嗎"},{"start":487.861,"end":514.743,"text":"我想大家一起努力應該很有機會達成你有沒有保證?你有沒有辦法保證?這種點子是一種各區管理的事情有時候可是你在委員會總質詢還有媒體訪問之前你都一直說要朝這個目標可是我們現在看你這個編列預算我們覺得像公共支票我們是另外還有健保健保這次的總額增加非常多所以部長你還是朝這個目標在邁進嘛對不對?"},{"start":517.845,"end":538.894,"text":"當然一定全力以赴好那針對以上的部分我們希望針對我們衛福部一個月內之內可以把護理人員流失到國外醫院任職的人數能夠提出這個數據還有檢討報告這部分有辦法做到嗎以利我們後面護理流財的政策"},{"start":540.066,"end":562.872,"text":"怎麼去進行我們委員所隨時的我們來瞭解好麻煩你把這個數據做出來應該我們現在國內的護理條因為我們現在是非常憂心啦現在護理荒啦然後而且也看得到我們現在各國都在挖這個護理人員所以把這個數據統計出來然後再提出這個檢討報告還有針對我們健保點子0.95的部分"},{"start":568.613,"end":594.431,"text":"也希望提出這個計畫因為從這個預算真的看不出怎麼樣子去進行也讓我們能夠追蹤衛福部保障健保點值施行的進度然後讓我們能夠估這個預期的成效可以嗎好那這部分請部長要來讓我們來完成還有針對我們一直之前有提出部桃新屋分院"},{"start":595.543,"end":617.323,"text":"我現在看不到我們部桃新屋分院的進度捏部長記不記得我們還要去考察過這個一直有進度這個謝謝委員齁非常關心我也是關心那一邊海線那一邊真的非常感動也非常重要啦齁所以我們義務會在這邊一直努力那現在的進度呢現在已經準備在接受第二次的審查這林市長講"},{"start":618.624,"end":637.351,"text":"委員跟報告委員就是我們那個135床那其實是他的一般病床還包含的是6床的特殊病床還有8間的手術房因為這部分是我們經過我們的外部委員特別是在義工在另外的我們的整個建設的裡面我們要把他的設置標準弄得最符合我們現在的規定那"},{"start":637.751,"end":652.931,"text":"已經經過第二次的這個審查了在11月中旬大概一個禮拜多那委員有提出一些這個修正的意見那等部立桃園醫院這邊會把修正意見給我們我們就會再進入部裡面再送到行政院去"},{"start":653.451,"end":671.638,"text":"部長因為這個我們也去考察過你知道沿海醫療品質這些資源真的是非常匱乏那個可是你說這個有進度可是我看114年這醫療藥品基金會的預算書上面我沒有看到有關於我們部桃新屋分院"},{"start":672.912,"end":691.069,"text":"大樓動工的所有任何的預算都沒有看到他的預算啊因為要先經過我剛剛講的就是說我們的建這個蓋醫院的委員看了以後那要報行政院行政院這邊因為他們也要去爭取公建計畫那經過國防會這邊同意以後我們才會編列預算那預估這個19.3億的經費我們會分5年來編列"},{"start":697.534,"end":723.035,"text":"那有關新屋分院的預算大概什麼時候會編列我們大概是會在115年就是明年如果行政院這邊通過我們就會所以明年會編列就是列到115年好因為我看114年是沒有你說115年會編列因為他的行政流程還沒有完成好那希望針對這部分我們大家都非常關切那趕快進度一定要來按照這個進度來進行那115年會編列"},{"start":724.876,"end":745.669,"text":"我們把那個行政流程趕快完成那還有針對我們部桃樂生療養院樂生療養院從日記時代1930年創立到現在他之前也是收容麻風病患可是他現在已經轉型成為地區型的綜合醫院那針對這部分"},{"start":747.29,"end":767.504,"text":"因為他一直掛上療養院地方的鄉親很多民眾說一直都還被誤解成他這是精神病院的療養院那民眾還有很多地方鄉親都希望是不是能夠證明為衛生福利部熱身綜合醫院是不是有這個證明的可能機會"},{"start":770.696,"end":791.745,"text":"根委員報告陸森良醫院當然就是說已經是非常年代已久那從日據時代到現在那他其實是已經是地區的教學醫院他已經評鑑通過所以他有將近20個科別那188床的接診床剛剛您提到他非常正確就是我們現在漢森院民慢慢的就是越來越現在只剩下56名的漢森院民"},{"start":792.225,"end":792.545,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":822.305,"end":851.164,"text":"我今天會提出就是因為有很多的學生的家長跟學子他們有時候去那邊看病看診可是他拿一些藥帶回去是熱身療養院他說有時候會造成他們的困擾有時候其他的同學學生看到之後會有一些隱憂所以才會提出這個是不是直接他居然已經是綜合醫院是不是就可以把他改名為熱身綜合醫院"},{"start":852.025,"end":854.797,"text":"這樣子是不是能夠解決地方的一些困擾跟疑惑"},{"start":857.132,"end":881.714,"text":"好 我們會再質詢 這個可能也不是叫中衛院比較我們部立的比較少用的就是樂生醫院好 沒關係 他就是能夠證明 然後因為他像是地區型的綜合醫院那就請我們衛福部這邊怎麼樣來給他一個證明好不好好 這個我們因為已經有提出這個疑惑跟誤解了那我也希望說能夠解決地方鄉親居然有提出 而且"},{"start":882.575,"end":910.63,"text":"覺得改圍醫院也是實至名歸因為它現在確實是地方型的綜合醫院好這個當然剛剛執行長有講要多方考量那我希望這個因為我們有提出真的是地方的需求那我相信說這個改圍醫院應該也是適得其所是好那請部長這邊來跟我們協助幫忙好了解好謝謝謝謝好謝謝涂委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":938,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（12時29分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長好。部長，在上個月底中國大陸福建省公布了他最新的政策措施，就是拋出漳州市5年內要向臺灣的護理人員招手，每年提供240個工作崗位，就是根據臺灣的學歷及工作經驗，而且還可以享受獎勵補助，大舉向臺灣護理人員招手，這個消息我們衛福部有掌握到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然有。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這部分，我們護理人員其實現在已經非常缺乏，像澳洲、美國其實也都一直在向我們挖角。現在中國大陸又加入這個行列，不知道我們衛福部針對這部分，有沒有什麼措施來因應？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，關心護理人才的培育跟留任。這個部分我們國家本來就設定了一個三大方向十二策略，一直在積極進行，希望越多的人來念，然後考照率能夠提高、留任的工作場域能夠更好、薪水能夠更高。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我知道有，我們針對這部分有推一些措施。"],["邱部長泰源：譬如說剛剛有提到，大陸提的價錢我們這裡已經都比他高了，我們這裡的薪水都比他高了，所以大概那個不太可能……"],["涂委員權吉：我知道我們部裡當然有一些措施，那有沒有一些比較具體的措施，能夠留住護理人才？其實像八大醫事團體，他們都一直來提出聲明，說要優化更好的護理工作環境，以及為辛苦的護理人員加薪。其實最好的方式還是保障我們的健保點值，針對這部分，部長你的看法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想給醫護人員能夠加薪，有更好的薪資，我覺得是現在政府一直在努力的，包括我們現在希望提高健保點值，投入更多的健保資源。其實重點就是改善工作環境，讓我們的醫療人員能夠有更好的薪水，然後留得住，來照顧人民的健康。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以八大醫事團體他們覺得最好、最落實的政策方式，就是保障健保點值0.95，這部分部長同意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：在政府這個部分，其實我們現在投入的健保資源有七百多億，所以明年度會讓整個國家的醫療工作人員能夠更有量能來照顧人民的健康。"],["涂委員權吉：所以保障健保點值0.95，基本上對他們提出這個應該是最有效的方法，這部分部長你認不認同？"],["邱部長泰源：點值是這樣，我們挹注資源，只要大家管理得當的話，我相信甚至可以超過0.95。"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以保障健保點值對於留住護理人員，也是一個具體措施的方法，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：保障護理人員有更多啦，我們直接跟他加薪，直接給他獎勵金，這個可能跟點值就沒關係，我們現在用公務預算……"],["涂委員權吉：對，但是保障健保點值也是一個很有效的方法。"],["邱部長泰源：那是一部分，但是像現在是用公務預算直接給他獎勵。"],["涂委員權吉：所以保障健保點值也是一個有效的方法，你應該不反對嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：儘量讓健保點值提升這當然是有幫助。"],["涂委員權吉：不反對嘛！對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：有幫助。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我們衛福部跟立法院，在這次保障健保點值協商，什麼時候通過這主決議？部長記得嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：上次是9月。"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係，是在113年7月16號，可是我看你們健保署網站最新公布的預估點值，在113年第二季，我們看到這個浮動點值居然退回到108年的水準，只剩下0.8847，不但沒有執行我們幾個月前的主決議，居然這個健保點值還退步到5年前的水準，這部分部長你有沒有注意到？我的意思是說，不但沒有到0.95，而且還退到108年的水準。這部分部長之前不管在委員會還是在總質詢、在媒體前，你都承諾會努力在明年6月達成健保點值保有0.95的目標，沒有錯吧？這個部長在媒體也說過。"],["邱部長泰源：我一再重申，我們會努力，而且在努力之下以及現在行政院挹注的資源之下，我相信應該是會到達……"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長你也是設定這個目標嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["涂委員權吉：可是我們現在看到，不但沒有往這個目標前進，而且還倒退到108年的0.8847。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，你現在提的這個部分是第二季。"],["涂委員權吉：對，113年第二季。"],["邱部長泰源：就是4到6月啦！在大家的鼓勵之下，我們現在將士用命，資源挹注，希望一直提升。其實像第三季，在南區，在幾個區的點值就成長的相當不錯。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我今天提出就是希望部長不要忘記你的承諾跟自己說過的話，要在明年6月達成，因為現在我看沒有往這個目標前進還反而倒退。我們是非常憂心，部長說的……"],["邱部長泰源：一定是往前進的啦！"],["涂委員權吉：我怕部長說的這個會變成空頭支票。"],["邱部長泰源：會到什麼程度就是大家會一起努力，一定會前進。"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長說會朝這方向努力。"],["邱部長泰源：一定會前進。"],["涂委員權吉：可是我看到衛福部這次提出的公務預算只有三百多億，三百多億裡面還包含了撥補國民年金的一百三十多億。如果以這種預算，你認為衛福部明年6月有辦法達到0.95嗎？根本沒有看到你的預算，你要怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：那個是公務預算，其實所有的部門就只有衛福部增加最多，增加了三百多億。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！你看這個健保署提供的點值數據，再加上你的預算，部長你明年6月底有信心達成嗎？我們是很憂心看不到。"],["邱部長泰源：我們要單獨來看健保這個部分，很多原來應該是在健保，我們移出公務預算，這個就一百多億……"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長有信心達成嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：然後加上總額，總額我們這次最高推估也到達5.5，我們會往這方面來努力，這樣的話加起來會有七百多億。"],["涂委員權吉：照你現在這樣的預算，你認為明年6月你有信心達成嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想大家一起努力，應該很有機會達成。"],["涂委員權吉：你有沒有保證，你有沒有辦法保證？"],["邱部長泰源：這種點值是一種各區管理的事情，還有疾病的一個風險……"],["涂委員權吉：可是你在委員會、總質詢，還有媒體訪問，你都一直說要朝這個目標。"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["涂委員權吉：可是我們現在看你這個編列預算，我們覺得像空頭支票耶！"],["邱部長泰源：不是，這是公務預算，我們另外還有健保，健保這次的總額增加非常多，增加了三百多億。"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以部長還是朝這目標在邁進，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：當然，一定全力以赴。"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對以上的部分，我們希望衛福部在一個月之內，可以針對護理人員流失到國外醫院任職的人數提出數據，還有檢討報告，這部分有辦法做到嗎？以利我們後面護理留才的政策怎麼去進行。"],["邱部長泰源：委員所垂詢的我們來瞭解，沒有問題。"],["涂委員權吉：好，麻煩你把這個數據做出來。"],["邱部長泰源：但是我相信，我們現在國內的護理環境應該……"],["涂委員權吉：因為我們現在非常憂心，現在護理荒，而且也看得到現在各國都在挖護理人員，所以把這個數據統計出來，然後再提出檢討報告。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["涂委員權吉：還有針對我們健保點值0.95的部分，也希望提出計畫，因為從這個預算真的看不出怎麼樣去進行，也讓我們能夠追蹤衛福部保障健保點值施行的進度，然後讓我們能夠估這個預期的成效，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們的進度隨時會跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：好，這部分請部長要讓我們來完成。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["涂委員權吉：還有，我們之前一直有提出部桃新屋分院，我現在看不到我們部桃新屋分院的進度，部長記不記得我們還有去考察過？"],["邱部長泰源：這個一直有進度，謝謝委員非常關心，我也是關心海線那邊，真的非常感動，也非常重要，所以我們醫福會在這方面一直努力。"],["涂委員權吉：那現在的進度呢？"],["邱部長泰源：現在已經在接受第二次的審查，請林執行長來說明。"],["林執行長慶豐：報告委員，就是我們那個135床，其實是他的一般病床，我們還包含了16床的特殊病床，還有8間手術房。這部分是經過我們的外部委員，特別是義工，在另外的我們的整個建設裡面，因為我們要把它的設置標準弄得最符合現在的規定。目前已經經過第二次的審查了，在11月中旬，大概一個禮拜多。委員有提出一些修正的意見，部立桃園醫院會把修正意見給我們，我們就會再進入部裡面來送到行政院去。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，這個我們也去考察過，你知道沿海的醫療品質和資源真的是非常匱乏。你說這個有進度，可是我在114年醫療藥品基金的預算書上面沒有看到有關於部桃新屋分院大樓動工的任何預算，都沒有看到它的預算啊！"],["林執行長慶豐：是。委員，跟你報告，因為要先經過我剛剛講的，我們蓋醫院的委員看了以後，要報行政院，因為他們要去爭取公建計畫，經過國發會同意以後，我們才會編列預算，預估這19.3億元的經費會分5年來編列，所以……"],["涂委員權吉：那有關新屋分院的預算大概什麼時候會編列？"],["林執行長慶豐：我們大概是會在115年，就是明年如果行政院通過，我們就會列入。"],["涂委員權吉：所以明年會編列？"],["林執行長慶豐：就是列到115年"],["涂委員權吉：好。因為我看114年是沒有，你說115年會編列？"],["林執行長慶豐：因為它的行政流程還沒有完成。"],["涂委員權吉：好。針對這部分我們大家都非常關切，希望一定要按照進度趕快來進行。115年會編列？"],["林執行長慶豐：對，我們把行政流程趕快完成。"],["涂委員權吉：好。還有針對部桃樂生療養院，樂生療養院從日據時代1930年創立到現在，它之前也是收容麻瘋病患，可是它現在已經轉型成為地區型的綜合醫院。因為它一直掛上療養院，地方的鄉親、很多民眾一直都誤解這是精神病院的療養院。民眾還有很多地方鄉親都希望能夠正名為「衛生福利部樂生綜合醫院」，是不是有這個正名的可能、機會？"],["林執行長慶豐：跟委員報告，樂生療養院年代已久，從日據時代到現在。它其實已經是地區的教學醫院，已經評鑑通過，所以它有將近20個科別、188個急性床。剛剛您提到非常正確，我們的漢生院民慢慢地越來越少，現在只剩下56名的漢生院民。它原本有一個漢生的病房，那邊是135床。後面那邊是不是要來做改建，這是一種方向。","第二個，您剛剛關心的要改名字，這會牽涉到樂生療養院的定位，因為還是有一些所謂過去對文資、文史這一塊。我們當然也會責成樂生療養院一起來評估相關的醫療資源，特別是它所在的地方將近有10%的桃園民眾有來樂生療養院就診。"],["涂委員權吉：好。我今天會提出來，就是因為有很多學生的家長跟學子，他們有時候去那邊看病、看診，可是他拿一些藥袋回去是寫樂生療養院，他說有時候會造成他們的困擾。有時候其他的同學、學生看到之後，會有一些隱憂，所以才會提出來。它既然已經是綜合醫院，是不是就可以把它改名為樂生綜合醫院？這樣子是不是能夠解決地方的一些困擾跟疑惑？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會再諮詢。這個可能也不是叫綜合醫院，我們部立的比較少用到，就叫「樂生醫院」？"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係，它就是能夠正名，因為它算是地區型的綜合醫院，那就請衛福部看可以怎麼樣給它正名，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個我們也一直在研議當中。"],["涂委員權吉：因為已經有提出這個疑惑跟誤解了。他們既然有提出，我也希望能夠解決地方鄉親的問題，而且覺得改為「醫院」也是實至名歸，因為它現在確實是地方型的綜合醫院。"],["邱部長泰源：了解。剛剛執行長有講要多方考量，有文資、文史……"],["涂委員權吉：因為我們有提出，真的是地方的需求啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["涂委員權吉：我相信改為「醫院」，應該也是適得其所。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好，那請部長來跟我們協助幫忙，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，了解，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請吳春城委員質詢。","報告委員會，我們在羅智強委員質詢完畢後，休息20分鐘。肚子餓了！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}},{"id":"157351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752bf32f84b514f0d81c3740404d340f2ad74ba16637283b6cc3a001556f561b11a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:41:48 - 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因為剛剛你有承諾嘛對嗎部長"},{"start":80.889,"end":109.532,"text":"不好意思大聲一點可以嗎?是啊那因為這個部分如果認定之後到底有哪些人能夠受惠我們也希望能夠更加的去有一個配套措施具體的去把它公平公正並且廣泛的來讓大家能夠來申請這個部分我想包括有很多認定上的一個問題我們都會很擔憂那當然推出這樣的一個補助能夠來協助他們利益良善但到底能夠讓多少人"},{"start":110.092,"end":115.657,"text":"adequate 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government."},{"start":125.305,"end":149.589,"text":"就是要了解台灣的一個文化跟價值我相信這個目標我們都非常的支持沒有人會去反對所以呢才會編列預算這麼多年在做執行喔那四年58億分年進行這樣子的一個預算呢那我想你們自己所訂定喔有這樣子的一個APP下載居然才百萬下載目標只有十萬餘量喔而且是十萬左右而已喔"},{"start":150.169,"end":164.385,"text":"那這個部分剛剛很多的委員都在問齁你們滿不滿意啦我想這個不需要問一定是不滿意而且是十分之一而已齁那我覺得這個根本不需要打分數這就是完全的不及格連自己所訂定的目標的一半"},{"start":165.026,"end":177.729,"text":"閱讀委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。閱讀委員會第11屆第2會期教�"},{"start":192.873,"end":216.702,"text":"台灣Plus的官網上面喔在關於我裡面也寫得很清楚提供獨立且公正的每日新聞報導對吧這個您知道吧知道好然而我們都很懷疑啊台灣Plus的一個新聞比例是否能夠如實的轉達多元客觀以及公平喔我想請問你一個英文單詞啊不知道您知道嗎Crawford"},{"start":219.901,"end":235.835,"text":"這個單詞意思是腐敗我們用這個單詞關鍵字去做一個搜尋台灣Plus的新聞裡面腐敗所顯示的新聞大家可以來看一下這個我所提供的一個圖片前16則裡面有7則是民眾黨"},{"start":240.659,"end":269.406,"text":"腐敗搜尋完是16則有7則是民眾黨有2則是謝國良惡意罷免案有2則是無黨籍議員的貪腐案我是很懷疑阿那綠營呢綠營呢綠營就不腐敗但無論是台研的陳啟毅以及雲報能源都沒有看到這些新聞阿我一直往後滑相關的新聞看到了更多的柯文哲"},{"start":270.796,"end":272.019,"text":"我沒有說不准你報導誰呀!"},{"start":274.025,"end":300.12,"text":"我是希望能不能多元客觀公正連這最基本的看起來都做不太到所以事實擺在眼前有圖有真相然後一直拉到很下面才勉強有幾則關於超思雞蛋案的一個報導是拉到很下面然後一則正文燦的新聞那台灣plus你們可以說是柯文哲的粉絲了吧"},{"start":301.081,"end":313.666,"text":"我覺得這個部分是不是有待改進?委員這個有一點點有一點點落差就是他是八九月份其實我們非常公平我可不可以請胡董跟你回答請說"},{"start":316.945,"end":316.965,"text":"陳啟育"},{"start":332.639,"end":332.659,"text":"質詢5 執行長"},{"start":361.32,"end":383.554,"text":"在各個月份他都有相關的報導,不會偏頗某個政黨,那可能是我們在TAG的設計上,就是那個TAG的設計上我們可以再做調整,也不會去批評某一個政黨。但因為八、九月份確實是在這兩個事件他比例是多,但是包括像鄭文燦前這個副院長他的新聞,在七月以前我們都有做報導,這是公平的。"},{"start":383.914,"end":387.597,"text":"adequate to the current state of affairs."},{"start":410.394,"end":427.819,"text":"貪腐以及相關的關鍵字難道真的只有這幾個選項嗎?我打一個很大的問號我也希望這個部分能夠加強我還是再一次強調我們沒有你只可以報導誰而是告訴你全部都應該公開公正"},{"start":428.439,"end":453.968,"text":""},{"start":454.008,"end":454.569,"text":"閱讀委員會提出檢討報告"},{"start":469.531,"end":487.278,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":487.418,"end":512.277,"text":"美國大選一結束阿台灣Plus把川普總統用重刑犯來做一個描述我想前面都講很多了齁你們說語意上的解釋阿或怎麼樣我直接來講一個大家聽聽看第一個美國大選已經結束了已經結束了你還要做這樣子的報導我覺得對比性上這個真的是非常的不妥齁不管你用什麼語意再來我們用這個原話來我們來看一下這個原話"},{"start":514.679,"end":534.617,"text":"他說美國大選系列報導中一名女記者在鏡頭表示這次的選舉將會成為一個歷史的時刻美國人到底會選出一個女性總統還是一個被定罪的重刑犯看來美國選擇了重刑犯我先不跟你探討重刑犯三個字因為你們說這是語意的問題然後你們也牽扯說多國的媒體也都有這樣子報導但是"},{"start":540.562,"end":568.987,"text":"我認為在其他國家描述川普是重刑犯他那個是川普的獨立報導沒有對比台灣Plus的這個問題是他用對比句型一個是女性總統那為什麼你不能對比男性總統那為什麼你要用另外一個形容詞我覺得男詞棋就硬凹啦就女生對男生這樣就好了嘛那為什麼要女生對XXX"},{"start":570.711,"end":584.997,"text":"我覺得這樣子難辭其咎所以我覺得這就是不妥當的一個敘述那當然大家也說川普是一個有仇必報的一個人那我們自己想想看我們自己的總統被外國給這樣子形容"},{"start":586.26,"end":603.191,"text":"我們會不會覺得很難堪所以現在我們還在討論到底我們要不要去他的就職典禮的時候我在想他會不會忌恨川普我們希望他是一個有大度量的人我們甚至希望台灣PLUS在這時這刻點閱率是1啊"},{"start":604.226,"end":622.653,"text":"好險我們的下載量只有10萬啊!如果是百萬餘量啊!我跟你講這國際大笑話啊!川普可能都還看到這則新聞啊!此時此刻我多麼希望台灣plus沒人點閱啊!所以呢前面跟後面真的是我自相矛盾啊!花了這麼多的錢結果你報導出這樣子!所以我還是要再次提醒!"},{"start":623.553,"end":643.541,"text":"我們都很希望台灣Plus能夠走出國際但是我們沒有看到這樣子的一個實際運用的話我們很難給你預算所以在後面審預算的時候我們一定會強力的監督甚至不惜如果沒有看到真正的實際的檢討我跟你講這預算我很難讓你們放行我想"},{"start":644.261,"end":644.441,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1007,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時42分）謝謝召委。有請部長和董事長。"],["主席：請李部長跟胡董事長。"],["李部長遠：羅委員好！"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好！部長，剛剛葛委員有跟你提到，有關藝術創作者、工作者、自營者的福利跟權益，我也想要為他們一起發聲。其實臺中在文化領域，尤其是在我的中西區、東南區，裡面都有很多這樣的產業及場所。其實我們臺中有勤美、大墩文化藝術中心、審計新村、文創園區和第四市場，我想這些地方都有很多藝術工作者會去做藝術工作。","其實剛剛大家都有討論到，不管是高工時、高壓力所擔負的健康風險，以及健康問題對創作力的影響，主管機關文化部基於對文化的照顧，我們要呼籲文化部應該要推動和補助定期的健康檢查，也要提供支持的心理諮商。本席另外也要提醒，因為剛剛你有承諾嗎？對嘛！部長？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，大聲一點可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：是啊！"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，因為這個部分如果認定之後，到底有哪些人能夠受惠？我們也希望這部分能夠有配套措施，能夠具體、公平、公正且廣泛的讓大家能夠來申請。這個部分，我想，包括有很多認定上的問題都讓我們很擔憂。當然，推出這樣的補助來協助他們是立意良善，但是到底能夠讓多少人，以及是不是能讓多數的人都可以使用到？公平性這個部分麻煩你要稍微注意一下，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。另外我想請問一下，部長，今天大家都非常的關注TaiwanPlus，它成立的初衷是要瞭解臺灣的文化跟價值，我相信這個目標我們都非常的支持，沒有人會反對，所以才會編列4年58億元的預算，多年、分年的來執行這樣的預算。但你們自己所訂定的app下載目標，下載目標竟然只要百萬下載量，目前也只有10萬餘量，而且是10萬左右而已。有關這個部分，剛剛有很多委員都在問你們滿不滿意？我想這個不需要問，一定是不滿意，而且目前下載量只有目標的十分之一而已。我覺得這個根本不需要打分數，這是完全不及格，連自己所訂定的目標的一半都沒有達到。審計部112年度的決算審核報告中也有提到，你們影音的內容跟計畫目標未符合，且觀看來源集中在亞洲和美洲，顯示其國際化的效果有效。","部長，我們都知道，公共電視法第十一條要求節目製播需要保持多元、客觀和公平性，並兼顧相關族群的均衡，TaiwanPlus官網上的「關於我」也寫得很清楚：「提供獨立且公正的每日新聞報導」，對吧？這個你知道吧？"],["李部長遠：知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，然而，我們很懷疑TaiwanPlus的新聞比例是否能夠如實的轉達多元、客觀以及公平？我想請問你一個英文單詞，不知道你知道嗎？「corruptful」，這個單詞的意思是「腐敗」，我們用「腐敗」這個單詞、關鍵字去搜尋TaiwanPlus裡面所顯示的新聞。大家可以看一下我所提供的圖片，前16則裡面有7則是民眾黨。用「腐敗」搜尋完，16則新聞裡面有7則是民眾黨；有2則是謝國樑惡意罷免案；有2則是無黨籍議員的貪腐案。我很懷疑，那「綠」呢？「綠營」呢？綠營就不腐敗？但無論是臺鹽的陳啟昱及雲豹能源，這裡面都沒有看到這些新聞。我一直往後滑，相關的新聞看到的是更多的柯文哲。","我沒有說不准你報導誰，我是希望能不能多元、客觀和公正，連這些最基本的，看起來你們都做不太到，事實擺在眼前，有圖有真相。然後一直拉到很下面，才勉強有幾則關於超思雞蛋案的報導，這是拉到很下面，然後1則鄭文燦的新聞。TaiwanPlus，你們可以說是柯文哲的粉絲了吧！我覺得這個部分是不是有待改進，部長你覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：委員，這個有一點點落差，因為它是8、9月份，其實我們非常公平，我可不可以請胡董事長來跟你回答？"],["羅委員廷瑋：請說。"],["胡董事長元輝：因為具體的新聞操作，我們執行長會比較瞭解，因為統計的關係，可能不是這樣，我請他說明一下。另外跟你說明一下……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們是用關鍵字查詢的，當然，你要跟我講陳啟昱檢調最近才開始搜索，但是我要跟你講，7月的時候謝龍介就已經預告會有綠營大咖、光電綠能弊案；以及8、9月的時候，光電綠能相關報導，我們提供這些關鍵字搜遍各個新聞網都還是有，我只是舉例陳啟昱而已，所以你不要告訴我陳啟昱是10月之後的事情。好，執行長，給你說。"],["余執行長佳璋：跟委員報告，各個月份都有相關的報導，我們不會偏頗某個政黨，那可能是我們在tag的設計上，就是tag的設計上，我們可以再做調整，也就是不會去批評某一個政黨，但是確實，8、9月這2個事件的比例比較多，包括像鄭文燦前副院長，7月以前他的新聞我們也都有報導，這是公平的，我們會儘量努力的去做各種面向的說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，當然，這是你的說辭，但是我們透過關鍵字去搜尋，我想，這也是你提供給我們的資料，我們透過你的系統去查閱，你提供什麼東西給我，我當然就可以拿出來講。我想要講的是，8、9月到底有多少則新聞？我們回去私底下搜遍各個新聞網，「腐敗」、「貪腐」，以及相關的關鍵字，難道真的只有這幾個選項嗎？我打一個很大的問號，我也希望這個部分能夠加強。我還是再一次強調，我們沒有要你只可以報導誰，而是告訴你，全部都應該要公開、公正和多元的讓全世界知道臺灣發生什麼事情，我想這是最基本的一個要求。"],["余執行長佳璋：是，我們公共媒體會繼續努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這樣的新聞內容比例有待更進，臺灣每天都有很多新聞在發生，就像我剛剛跟你講的，我認為，有很多事情值得大家瞭解臺灣，像這樣多元的觀點，我還是希望TaiwanPlus，不是DPP 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有點誇張啦 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這個不是陷阱題現在外籍人士在台灣可以購買微型機車跟微型電動車不用附上雇主證明但是我們有沒有限制兩個部分因為我知道交通部今天沒有來但是我提出來因為這個是最近本席聽到我們基層員警有反應的我們有沒有限制外籍人士他一個人可以購買多少台摩托車或他名下可以登記多少台摩托車"},{"start":283.735,"end":284.835,"text":"移民署這就跟你有相關了吧"},{"start":307.19,"end":326.784,"text":"如果是這個部分還是要財稅單位有通知我們的話我們就會選擇有可能沒有通知所以說他今天你今天外籍人士要離開他拿其他國家的護照要離開我們的國門的時候我們不知道說他到底有沒有繳清我們台灣的交通罰款我們有沒有繳清我們相關的一些"},{"start":328.426,"end":346.527,"text":"如果說他不是刑事案件的話是不是他就可以直接離開也沒有任何記錄如果沒有記錄的話沒有禁止出現的話的確是可以本席現在提出一個很嚴重的狀況這也是基層員警告訴我就是說外籍人士現在有一些不肖業者他就直接去找外籍人士去"},{"start":347.108,"end":363.373,"text":"人頭也好或說去用什麼樣他就等於一個外籍人士他下面可能登記了三四十台摩托車他都用他的身份證件去購買機車購買機車完之後行照掛在這個外籍人士身上但是用的可能是其他人去用"},{"start":364.133,"end":382.238,"text":"那造成說如果這一台摩托車他去外面闖紅燈被開單罰款也是罰單也是寄到這一個人來可是這一個人也許三個月到期了他就要回他的國家了他就離境那這個罰單就不知道找誰了"},{"start":382.958,"end":403.958,"text":"那還有這只是一般的正常違規情況如果說有肇事假設他騎著這台摩托車撞到人肇事但他逃逸他當場沒有被攔下來他就駕駛者就離開了警方來巡訊追蹤也只能追蹤到登記他名下的但這一個外籍人士有可能出境了"},{"start":405.376,"end":423.181,"text":"所以這跟什麼這跟本席聽到這跟假車牌有一點點類似但又不完全因為他是真車牌只是他的車牌全部都登記在同一個人的名下那那個人可能就變成是人頭他可能有不肖業者他就去找快要離開的最後半年最後三個月要離開台灣了"},{"start":424.321,"end":451.569,"text":"那他就跟他收購我可能一台車一千塊一台車兩千塊還多少錢你就讓我登記反正我沒有登記上限所以會發生一個很荒謬的情況一個人他下面有三四十個車牌五六十個車牌的登記然後罰款沒繳他也離開我們出入境我們移民署沒有辦法攔截他這會是一個治安問題喔"},{"start":453.271,"end":479.495,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前齁在這個外籍移工的部分如果他離境的話他的門號跟帳戶我們會跟金管會還有NCC會去做一個阻斷那委員剛剛提到是有關於車牌的部分我們會跟交通部討論就是說我們先了解一下他那個樣態還有剛剛委員提到一個人他到底身上掛了幾台車"},{"start":479.795,"end":495.298,"text":"我們說現在可以讓他不用付雇主證明他就可以買車這個尊重人權我們沒有意見但是他理論上來講一個人就一台摩托車嘛頂多兩台嘛但他如果說一個人他名下有50台、30台那就明顯不合理啊"},{"start":495.979,"end":520.392,"text":"郭台銘來他也不會騎那種摩托車啊對不對所以這樣子一個樣態他就會是犯罪溫藏有可能他不是自己用而是給別人用那就會產生我剛剛提出來的這個問題我想這個部分連帶的因為會這樣做的人不是一個常態他有可能就有一些犯罪有可能他又變車手車手的車牌車手的交通工具然後再去做詐騙"},{"start":521.813,"end":544.027,"text":"緩緩相扣。」我想我點到這邊你們這些就是有偵查經驗的人應該比我更了解這個是一個破口請一定要防堵好嗎那一個月內也給本席針對這個部分做什麼樣的一個因應措施是不是讓本席也知道好 謝偉我們跟交通部研擬一下整個樣態然後我們有對策的部分跟委員會報告好 謝謝再麻煩一個月內回覆"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1381,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時31分）主席謝謝。麻煩請內政部次長，還有警政署跟移民署署長。"],["主席：麻煩次長、署長。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。次長我先表揚一下，本席的選區林口，上個禮拜我們忠孝派出所所長成功攔獲一個馬來西亞籍的車手，追回了贓款。我知道這段時間詐騙的氾濫程度，可是我們第一線員警其實都非常辛苦，我也常講要源頭管理，還有就是我們看到問題就來解決問題。到目前為止，1月到8月的時候，有多少的外籍人士因為詐騙的相關案件被逮捕？我想我們有相關的統計資料。沒關係，我們直接秀出來，這個是刑事警察局的統計，其中詐騙、詐欺的部分在113年1月到8月已經有761案，比過去幾年都還要來的高，去年是921案，但是回推下來還有三分之一左右的時間，所以說今年外籍人士有可能破千案。再再就是看到說有外籍人士，當然我還是強調，百分九十九我認為說外籍人士願意來到臺灣生活，不管是新住民、不管是來求學，我想都是立意良善，也都希望是能夠跟台灣共榮共存共好，可是有人還是會有鑽漏洞的情況，我想這也是為什麼我們召委今天排這個專案報告。我看到另外一個數據是113年跟112年謊稱代辦貸款的詐騙數據，這也是我之前跟刑事警察局要的資料，成長的比例讓我更訝異，去年同時間八百多件，但今年同時間有到兩千一百多件，暴增耶！所以說換言之，不管是外籍人士也好，或是本國的詐騙案件，我們不是說一直在防範詐騙、打擊詐騙，為什麼感覺愈打愈詐，到底發生了什麼事情？是不是簡要說明一下。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員，我想外籍人士的部分一方面我們現在疫後觀光的部分復甦，所以有蠻多的外籍人士是持觀光簽證到臺灣，那我們就有發現所謂的假觀光真詐騙的這種行為，所以在這個部分我們有跟包括交通部還有外交部研擬，對某一些風險比較高的國家的觀光客，我們要不要採取一些其他的管制措施，這個部分還在討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：我請教一下，國籍都是東南亞國家還是免簽的國家？"],["馬次長士元：以免簽的國家為主。最近我們有放寬幾個免簽的國家，這個部分我們也在尋求該國的駐臺單位跟我們一起來討論對策，這部分有一些細節我們可以會後再跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，但是什麼時候，因為我們現在已經看到問題了，不管是數字層面、統計層面，這都是刑事警察局統計的，那什麼時候能夠把辦法給拿出來？你剛剛也講跟外交部、跟交通部，那什麼時候有一個具體明確的不管是敢善也好、政策也好、調整也好。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們希望年底之前能夠有個對策。"],["洪委員孟楷：年底之前會提出對策。"],["馬次長士元：對，因為我們已經開過2次會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那另外本席有關注到一個案件，我想也利用這個機會，2位署長都在。我先請教，現在外籍人士是不是在臺灣可以購買所謂的摩托車或是微型電動車，而且不需要雇主證明，對不對？確定啦，這個不是陷阱題，就是現在外籍人士在臺灣可以購買微型機車跟微型電動車，不用附上雇主證明。但是我們有沒有限制兩個部分，因為我知道交通部今天沒有來，但是我提出來，因為這個是最近本席聽到基層員警有反映的。我們有沒有限制外籍人士一個人可以購買多少台摩托車或他名下可以登記多少台摩托車？沒有。"],["張署長榮興：可能沒有這樣的規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有這樣的規定。那如果他今天名下的摩托車開罰，闖紅燈或是無照駕駛等等，有被登記要罰款，他還沒有繳清罰款前，能不能離境？移民署，這就跟你有相關了吧？"],["鐘署長景琨：這個部分還是要財稅單位有通知我們的話，我們就會限制出境。"],["洪委員孟楷：有可能沒有通知……"],["鐘署長景琨：沒有通知我們也會不知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以今天外籍人士要離開，他拿其他國家護照要離開我們國門的時候，我們不知道他到底有沒有繳清我們臺灣的交通罰款，有沒有繳清我們相關的一些，如果不是刑事案件的話，他是不是就可以直接離開？也沒有任何紀錄。"],["鐘署長景琨：如果沒有紀錄，沒有禁止出境的話，的確是可以出境。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席現在提出一個很嚴重的狀況，這也是基層員警告訴我，就是說外籍人士現在有一些不肖業者，他就直接去找外籍人士，人頭也好或是用怎麼樣，一個外籍人士下面可能登記三、四十台摩托車，他都用他的身分證件去購買機車，購買機車之後行照掛在這個外籍人士身上，但是用的可能是其他人去用。造成說如果這台摩托車去外面闖紅燈，有被開單，罰單也是寄到這一個人，可是這個人也許3個月到期就要回他的國家了，他就離境，那這個罰單就不知道找誰了。還有，這只是一般正常違規情況，如果說有肇事，假設他騎的這台摩托車撞到人肇事，但是他逃逸，當場沒有被攔下來，駕駛者就離開了，警方循線追蹤也只能追蹤到登記他名下的，但是這個外籍人士有可能出境了。所以這跟假車牌有一點點類似，但是又不完全，因為他是真車牌，只是他車牌全部都登記在同一個人名下，那個人可能就變成是人頭，可能有不肖業者他就去找快要離開的，最後半年、最後3個月要離開臺灣了，他就跟他收購，可能1台車1,000元、1台車2,000元還多少錢，你就讓我登記，反正沒有登記上限。所以會發生一個很荒謬的情況，一個人他下面有三、四十個車牌，五、六十個車牌的登記，然後罰款沒繳，他也離開，我們入出境移民署沒有辦法攔截他，這會是一個治安問題。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們目前在外籍移工的部分，如果他離境的話，他的門號跟帳戶我們會跟金管會還有NCC去做一個阻斷。那委員剛剛提到是有關車牌的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那我現在講到車牌的部分、行照的部分。"],["馬次長士元：對，我會跟交通部討論，就是說我們先了解一下他那個樣態，還有剛剛委員提到說一個人他到底身上掛了幾台車。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，我們說現在可以讓他不用附雇主證明他就可以買車，這個尊重人權我們沒有意見，但是理論上來講，一個人就1台摩托車，頂多2台，但是如果一個人名下50台、30台，那就明顯不合理。"],["馬次長士元：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：郭台銘來他也不會騎那麼多摩托車啊，對不對？所以這樣子的一個樣態，他就會是犯罪的溫床，有可能他不是自己用，而是給別人用，那就會產生我剛剛提出來的這個問題。我想這一個部分連帶的，因為會這樣做的人不是一個常態，他有可能就有一些犯罪，有可能他又變車手，車手的車牌、車手的交通工具，然後再去做詐騙，環環相扣。我想我點到這邊，你們這些有偵查經驗的人應該比我更了解，這是一個破口，請一定要防堵，好嗎？一個月內針對這個部分做什麼樣的因應措施，是不是讓本席也知道。"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員，我們跟交通部研擬一下整個樣態，然後我們有對策的部分會跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：再麻煩一個月內回復，謝謝。","接下來我們請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752e65f0016635202c4c3740404d340f2ad74ba16637283b6cc8976a5e7dc8100215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:25:43 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37.751,"end":61.251,"text":"反彈的聲音很高啦,我真的,我可以很直接的跟部長做這樣子的表白。當初可能你們所高舉的一些想法跟實際上面的落實啊,中間的落差讓大家開始去質疑啊,說每一年花這些錢做這個事情到底是在幹嘛。部長,台灣Plus到現在的成效你滿意嗎?"},{"start":62.927,"end":89.94,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":90.864,"end":119.571,"text":"因為當選民跟我們做這樣子的反應的時候我們恐怕沒有辦法雲淡風輕的跟你講一下請他們再努力嘛大家要看到的是實際的成果那特別是啊不管是從審計部的總學算報告或者是說從立法院預算中心的報告對台灣Plus實際上面的效果質疑啊非常非常的大甚至啊"},{"start":120.859,"end":137.648,"text":"出現了這樣子的狀況我老實說我是會看國際新聞的你們公視出的那個檢討報告我也都看過但問題是在台灣目前的脈絡下面"},{"start":139.963,"end":159.879,"text":"我們在報新聞的時候報到好像我們的政府我們的公廣集團是有在選編的選特定的價值因為這位記者我也不想誤會他所以從頭到尾我全部都聽完了我也不是看翻譯的我就看他英文怎麼表達部長你也說這個情況很嚴重嗎"},{"start":163.769,"end":182.734,"text":"我想跟我們當年要成立這個台灣plus我們找了很多外國記者因為本身這個本國的記者英文程度不夠不夠這麼好我們就從外國找記者外國記者本身他的政治傾向或者他的言論的確是我覺得跟台灣還有一點差異你覺得這樣的事情還會不會再發生希望既然減少"},{"start":189.79,"end":208.267,"text":"您覺得目前台灣Plus他們所出的檢討報告您滿不滿意?我覺得我不會太滿意,因為我覺得還是找了一些藉口。還是找了一些藉口嗎?對。那您不滿意也認為他們在找藉口,接下來該怎麼辦?繼續督促他們繼續努力。"},{"start":214.178,"end":234.41,"text":"因為這個公管集團本身的設定一直不在他是一個獨立的一個運作的包括節目內容新聞內容文化部是不能干預的像這一次我稍微有一點覺得嚴重馬上就會有人說我干涉新聞自由文化部長干涉新聞自由其實我完全沒有來我們請那個胡董事長請胡董委員好那個部長剛剛講的話我完全聽得懂"},{"start":243.666,"end":270.177,"text":"那袁輝兄也是之前我非常敬重的傳播學者您覺得部長表達這樣子的立場有在干預你們的新聞自由嗎?首先要說明就是我們當時決定暫行下架這件事情是我們內部編輯室討論結果所以與部長後來的發言這是兩件事情是兩件事情嗎?那董事長從您作為傳播學者的高度啊您覺得這個報導有沒有問題?"},{"start":272.543,"end":294.595,"text":"我們認為那個用字所謂A convicted felonFelon這個字翻譯成中文您很了解就所謂的重罪其實在美國這不是那麼重不過這個用語簡單來講就是我們覺得是可以用但你要在敘述脈絡裡面做妥善你說得很好啊問題就出在敘述脈絡嘛是這個有問題他在報結果的時候啊"},{"start":300.227,"end":325.054,"text":"說我們的盟邦啊重要的盟友啊美國人到底會選出一位女總統還是會選出一位重刑犯結果美國人選擇的是一個重刑犯這樣子的敘述我老實說啦大家看完了以後我覺得真的非常不妥真的非常不妥我本來還以為說這個事是在美國有特定黨派立場的媒體所做的報導"},{"start":326.96,"end":351.838,"text":"我語重心長的就是說跟董事長說一句話我們這個會期要審預算台灣Plus當初成立的時候大家有很高的期待搞到今天連部長剛剛的發言您都聽到了如果沒有再更努力的說服國人的話這個預算接下來審議的時候要立委支持"},{"start":352.95,"end":380.635,"text":"大家都會很困難我想我話說到這邊董事長應該可以理解嘛好下一個啊國內的公廣集團我真的是匪夷所思欸我們的華視啊報新聞報到會違反選罷法看到這個新聞想說這個是新聞還是在幫民進黨吹票啊當初這個新聞出來的時候一堆人質疑啊"},{"start":382.049,"end":405.172,"text":"我搞到後來被中選會裁罰了中選會裁罰華氏20萬代表人20萬代表人20萬的錢是自己出的嗎?如果處分確認當然是我們應該要自己出的應該要自己出現實上有自己出嗎?所有處分都是華氏自己付款對啊"},{"start":407.45,"end":430.062,"text":"華視自己負擔沒意義啊是納稅人在負擔啊您同意嗎?呃,華視當然他股份有83%是公司基金會不過他的營運是完全自己自主。董事長我真的蠻敬重您的但我覺得在國會不要講外行話啦你罰華視20萬絕大多數就是納稅人出嗎?出現這樣子的狀況華視內部有檢討嗎?"},{"start":436.974,"end":454.617,"text":"有,而且有在總經理他對這個事情有做過一個討論跟檢討。那檢討完了以後呢?有誰被追究責任?我可以再去了解一下。請了解一下一個禮拜之內書面回答我,誰負了責任?"},{"start":456.055,"end":483.326,"text":"因為我看到有很多傳播學者當初大家都很支持公廣集團看到這個新聞的時候覺得不可置信覺得不可置信我們公廣集團的人去搞這種事情違反選罷法讓大家質疑我們的公廣集團做出來的新聞是當初接觸的理想為國家、為社會、為人民還是幫特定的黨派"},{"start":484.673,"end":485.013,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時25分）麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：黃委員，你好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。其實我是支持臺灣的新聞應該要國際化，對於臺灣的閱聽大眾來講，多接觸一些國際新聞，確實是有助於開闊視野與世界連結。但我必須要老實講，你們做的TaiwanPlus到現在社會上反彈的聲音很高，真的，我可以很直接地向部長做這樣的表白。當初你們高舉的一些想法與實際上的落實，中間的落差讓大家開始質疑，每一年花這些錢做這件事情，到底是在幹嘛！部長，TaiwanPlus到現在的成效，你滿意嗎？"],["李部長遠：不滿意，但是我蠻了解TaiwanPlus的來龍去脈，以及它在三年之間的轉變，我想再給他們一點時間。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["李部長遠：需要多久就看他們自己努不努力吧！"],["黃委員國昌：他們要努力多久？"],["李部長遠：我想請執行長直接向你回答。"],["黃委員國昌：不是！請部長能夠理解我們立法委員的立場，當選民向我們做出這樣的反映時，我們恐怕沒有辦法雲淡風輕的告訴你，請他們再努力吧！大家要看到的是實際的成果，特別是無論從審計部的總決算報告或立法院預算中心的報告，對於TaiwanPlus的實際效果質疑得非常非常大，甚至出現了這樣的狀況。老實說，我是會看國際新聞的人，你們公視出的那份檢討報告，我也都看過了，但問題是在臺灣目前的脈絡之下，我們報導的新聞感覺好像我們的政府、我們的公廣集團是有選邊的、選特定的價值。我也不想誤會這位記者，因此，我從頭到尾全部都聽完、我也不是看翻譯的，而是看她的英文如何表達。部長，你也說這個情況很嚴重吧？"],["李部長遠：當年要成立TaiwanPlus的時候，我們找了很多外國記者，因為本國記者的英文程度不夠好，於是我們就從外國找記者。但是外國記者本身的政治傾向或言論，我覺得的確是與臺灣有一些差異。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得這樣的事情還會不會再發生？"],["李部長遠：希望儘量減少。"],["黃委員國昌：對於目前TaiwanPlus所提出的檢討報告，你滿不滿意？"],["李部長遠：不會太滿意，我覺得還是找了一些藉口。"],["黃委員國昌：還是找了一些藉口嘛！"],["李部長遠：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你不滿意，也認為他們在找藉口，接下來該怎麼辦？繼續督促他們繼續努力？"],["李部長遠：因為公廣集團本身的設定是獨立運作，包括節目內容及新聞內容，文化部是不能干預的。像這次我稍微覺得有點嚴重，馬上就有人說我干涉新聞自由、文化部長干涉新聞自由，其實我完全沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：請胡董事長。"],["主席：請胡董。"],["胡董事長元輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長剛剛講的話，我完全聽得懂，元輝兄也是之前我非常敬重的傳播學者。你覺得部長表達這樣的立場是干預你們的新聞自由嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：首先要說明，當時決定暫行下架的這件事情是我們內部編輯室討論的結果，所以與部長後來的發言是兩件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：是兩件事情嘛！董事長，就你身為傳播學者的高度，你覺得這個報導有沒有問題？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們認為那個用字，所謂的convicted 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謝謝委員好 那接下來我想請那個數發布的代表今天是好 那謝謝部長請回座"},{"start":306.826,"end":327.589,"text":"委員好是今天是副署長是黃副署長您好那我想就是在數法部其實呢這些年來你們有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防治及服務能量的登錄辦法那針對這個第三方業者這個必須要"},{"start":328.755,"end":353.723,"text":"遵從《洗錢防治法》裡面所要求的法尊等等聲明書然後要去進行一些能量的登錄請問一下你們現在登錄的狀況如何我們目前有64家的業者64家64家的業者可是你知道其實在商業司有登記有多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎"},{"start":354.683,"end":359.445,"text":"目前有登錄的之前知道是有13000多家是有登錄的但是實際上因為他必須要實名的就是要跟我們登錄然後我們會去查核那這樣子的話他才算是合法的就是11月30號以後"},{"start":373.211,"end":381.719,"text":"因為我看起來這個數字差別很大在商業是登記的有一萬多家可是你實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家我們目前之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請然後實際上我們經過查核了以後我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家"},{"start":395.208,"end":403.874,"text":"所以這64家是完整登錄已經取得了你們的認證我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過這什麼意思這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息然後提供給我們所以他們還是通過了"},{"start":414.04,"end":428.877,"text":"有條件通過有條件通過所以他們還是可以跟銀行講說提供相關的登錄的能量證書然後取得一個虛擬的帳號是可是你明明就是當時就說是保留註銷條件為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有經過再次的審查之後"},{"start":436.325,"end":454.973,"text":"他們到底是合格還是不合格他們符合你們這個作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎跟委員補充一下這部分是因為這樣因為有些現在有些新興的行業他因為他現在沒有沒有沒有能量登錄所以現在我們跟銀行銀行這邊就金管會這邊有做一個"},{"start":455.433,"end":483.556,"text":"行政協助的部分只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄的話銀行就不準就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶可是有很多新興的科技行業他希望進入到三資這個行業所以他就來跟我們說其實他這部分來講的話他現在因為沒有能量登錄變成說他沒有辦法去申請虛擬帳戶可是他有要配合的業者就是說我們也要看他的時機因此就變成一個雞生蛋單生雞的情況所以我們委員您在網上上面會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件就是說"},{"start":484.657,"end":508.469,"text":"我們要求他6個月之內要拿這個人量登錄去申請到虛擬帳戶的虛擬帳號的時候你必須要在6個月之內做出實機你如果沒有辦法提出實機的話我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格這個意思大概是這樣所以註銷掉他的資格之後他的虛擬帳號已經取得虛擬帳號也會被註銷掉嗎是的 是的是 那所以現在還有幾家你們剛剛說還有20幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎"},{"start":514.813,"end":524.264,"text":"大概目前在十幾家十幾家六個月之內他六個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行為因為他已經取得了虛擬招號"},{"start":526.021,"end":549.394,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個之前有很多委員詮詢這件問題所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄的年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次沒有我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者因為你還是給了他這個條件他還是可以跟銀行去申請沒錯他6個月之內他要完成那個登錄對不對那所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能"},{"start":550.414,"end":569.06,"text":"成為就是詐騙集團的就是委員您擔心的這個可能這件事情我們就要透過限地查核的部分去查所以你們多久查核一次我們今年都會我們幾乎每週都會幾乎每一兩週都會排一次我們現在就是64家全部都要把年底之前全部查完"},{"start":570.101,"end":586.058,"text":"我還是講兩件事一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的一個是保留註銷條件我要強調的就是說其實看得出來就是你們現在這個書發部的產業發展署跟經濟部那邊可能還沒有或是跟經管會那裡還沒有協調好一個"},{"start":587.219,"end":606.126,"text":"比較好的一個作業方式就是你們這邊要登錄完之後然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向金管會去向銀行端去取得虛擬帳號到底就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋蛋生雞哪個先哪個後對但是重要就是當他取得了虛擬帳號之後他就有可能開始從事詐騙的"},{"start":608.627,"end":624.469,"text":"的這樣的一個情況所以我認為說在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況應該是還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬賬號否則的話就很容易就會有這個詐騙的事端發生"},{"start":626.363,"end":653.208,"text":"委員好就是針對委員提的這個部分就是針對比較具有風險比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分我們回去就是會看是不是盡速的納入我們就是強化就是檢查的部分然後另外您提到的部分我們還是會回去就是跟團隊做演繹好我希望你們能夠在我看我是要求你們一個月還是兩個星期之間要"},{"start":656.802,"end":683.276,"text":"這個提出相關的這個檢討報告尤其是檢討你們現在的第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點還有就是你們輔導業者我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者他都登記說他從事第三方支付只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬賬號可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情那還是有極有可能他已經取得虛擬賬號而且也都開始在行就是有這個詐騙的行為所以這個"},{"start":686.298,"end":709.787,"text":"問題本席認為是重要的我們不希望抒發部成為詐騙的幫助犯你們要更積極地採取行動那麼另外我這邊也請法務部可能也要再去徹底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙誤信誤信而詐騙所以也請你們要再做一個報告好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1332,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時19分）有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，部長好。我們今天的主題主要是討論有關於打詐詐騙的問題，我們知道臺灣的詐騙手法五花八門，很多都是利用人性貪婪的弱點，所以常常都會發生有人被詐騙。當然被詐騙的當事人自己本身也有責任，可是如果詐騙的手法是一再利用公部門的口號，或者是公部門的政策，然後因此而被詐騙，我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要做一些政策的檢討。首先，我想要講的就是我最近從司法院的裁判書裡面，就是用「偵查不公開」的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為當事人相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開，所以後來就被詐騙了。在113年就有136筆，其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團謊稱是檢調人員，告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講，因為偵查不公開，導致有些當事人就被詐騙，這10件的金額就高達一千多萬。其實很多的民眾上大概都常常會接到類似這樣的電話，尤其是高齡的民眾常常很容易就誤信自己帳戶是不是被凍結等等的情況，然後詐騙集團又告訴他這個事不能講，因為偵查不公開。所以我想請教部長，您對於這種詐騙集團一而再、再而三的利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段，這件事情您的看法是什麼？您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民誤信偵查不公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的指教，我想冒充司法人員已經由來很久了，現在尤其如果以偵查不公開來欺騙這些老實人，對此我們用宣導面的，用個案去識別化的以偵查不公開的實際案例來做宣導。另外，我們希望各地檢的檢察官結合各主管的部會，我們到社區裡面，我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓，我們用去識別化的方式把實際的案例做一個宣導。基本上，我們在地方電視台或者是社區，利用任何一種甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導，我想可以比較有說服力，讓他們有警覺。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想要告訴部長的是，其實這些年來我們也有看到法務部有做一些媒體政策的宣導，編列一些相關的經費，可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的議題宣導，我覺得還是不夠，而且你們常常都會拿偵查不公開，其實有時候電視上就會看到以偵查不公開這樣的口號來恐嚇人民，而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開。這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的，尤其是這麼多年來，大部分的臺灣民眾如果接到詐騙集團假稱他是檢調人員，然後告訴民眾現在發生什麼問題，然後因為偵查不公開，不可以告訴警方，當事人很容易就相信了。由此可見法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的，是失敗的，而這個部分本席認為法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來澈底來告訴民眾，偵查不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的要求，而不是接到一通電話就讓人民相信了，這個部分我希望法務部是不是未來可以加強這方面的說明和宣導，同時不僅是在媒體上，在電視上或是網路上面可以有很多資訊，你們甚至可以做一些圖卡，來強調這方面的重要，就是警察和檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝部長，請回座。","接下來請數發部的代表，今天是副署長列席，副署長您好！"],["陳副署長慧敏：是，委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：副署長您好！數發部這些年來有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防制及服務能量的登錄辦法，針對第三方業者必須要遵從洗錢防制法裡面所要求的法遵、聲明書等等，然後要進行一些能量的登錄。請問你們現在登錄的狀況如何？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們目前有64家業者。"],["翁委員曉玲：60家？"],["陳副署長慧敏：64家。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是你知道在商業司有登記多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：有登錄的目前知道是有一萬三千多家，這是有登錄的，但是實際上因為必須要實名，就是要來跟我們登錄，然後我們會去查核，這樣才算是合法的，就是11月30日以後……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在有查核多少家呢？因為我看起來這個數字差別很大，在商業司登記的有一萬多家，可是實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家。"],["陳副署長慧敏：之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請，然後實際上我們經過查核了以後，我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這64家是完整登錄，已經取得了你們的認證？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過，這什麼意思？"],["陳副署長慧敏：這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息，然後提供給我們。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他們還是通過了，是不是還是通過了？"],["陳副署長慧敏：有條件通過。"],["翁委員曉玲：有條件通過，所以他們還是可以跟銀行講提供相關的登錄的能量證書，然後取得一個虛擬的帳號。"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是明明當時就是保留註銷條件，為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有經過再次的審查？他們到底是合格還是不合格？他們符合你們作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎？"],["黃簡任視察國源：跟委員補充一下。這部分是因為現在有些新興行業還沒有能量登錄，所以現在我們跟銀行及金管會有做行政協助的部分，只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄，銀行就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶，可是有很多新興的科技行業希望進入到三支行業，所以他就來跟我們說，他這部分因為他現在沒有能量登錄，變成他沒有辦法申請虛擬帳戶，可是他有要配合的業者，就是說我們也要看他的實績。因此就變成一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的情況，所以委員您在網上會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件，就是我們要求他6個月之內要拿能量登錄去申請到虛擬帳號的時候，必須要在6個月之內做出實績，如果沒有辦法提出的話，我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格，大概是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你註銷掉他的資格之後，他已經取得的虛擬帳號也會被註銷掉嗎？"],["黃簡任視察國源：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以現在還有幾家？你們剛剛說還有二十幾家，二十幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎？"],["黃簡任視察國源：現在目前大概十幾家。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是6個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行　為？因為他已經取得了虛擬帳號。"],["黃簡任視察國源：跟委員報告，之前有很多委員垂詢這個問題，所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄，在年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有，我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者，因為你還是給了他這個條件，他還是可以跟銀行去申請。"],["黃簡任視察國源：沒錯。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是他6個月之內要完成那個登錄，對不對？"],["黃簡任視察國源：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能成為詐騙集團的……"],["黃簡任視察國源：有，委員您擔心這個可能的這件事情，我們就是要透過現地查核的部分去查。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們多久查核一次？天天查？"],["黃簡任視察國源：我們幾乎每一、兩週都會排一次，我們現在就是64家都要在年底之前全部查完一遍。"],["翁委員曉玲：我還是講兩件事，一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的，一個是保留註銷條件，我要強調的是，看得出來現在數發部產業發展署跟經濟部或是金管會還沒有協調好一個比較好的作業方式，就是你們這邊要登錄完之後，然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向銀行端取得虛擬帳號，就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋、蛋生雞哪個先哪個後。"],["黃簡任視察國源：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是重要的是當他取得了虛擬帳號之後，他就有可能開始從事詐騙的情況，所以我認為在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況，應該還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬帳號，否則的話，就很容易有詐騙的事端發生。"],["陳副署長慧敏：委員好，針對委員提的這個部分，對於比較具有風險，比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分，我們回去會看是不是儘速納入強化檢查的部分，另外您提到的部分，我們還是會回去跟團隊做研議。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我希望你們在1個月還是2個星期之間要提出相關的檢討報告，尤其是檢討你們現在第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點。還有就是你們輔導業者，我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者，他都登記他要從事第三方支付，只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬帳號，可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情，還是極有可能他已經取得虛擬帳號，而且也都開始有詐騙的行為，所以這個問題本席認為是重要的，我們不希望數發部成為詐騙的幫助犯，你們要更積極的採取行動。另外這邊也請法務部要澈底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙，因誤信而被詐騙，所以也請你們要再做一個報告，謝謝。"],["陳副署長慧敏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157343","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157343","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752892bf249dd1fc0ce5f16e2c62e3913b474ba16637283b6cce07d3bc095bcb0085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請部長委員好部長好 請教您一個問題您衛福部那邊有沒有資料 或者你知不知道原住民族我們洗腎的人數您大概知道嗎所有原住民"},{"start":34.589,"end":55.688,"text":"我們剛剛突破60萬人口60萬人,您知道原住民洗腎人口多少嗎?我們洗腎的時候不用申報族群,所以要另外再查部長,很謝謝您跟我們一起推動原住民族健康法"},{"start":56.946,"end":76.302,"text":"原住民族健康法為什麼要設立就我們講的嘛原住民的健康資料嘛要建立嘛要不然我們要解決健康不平等的現象連最基本的資料都沒有我們在談論的時候都不知道根據什麼好那我再請教部長您一個問題假設你有聽過納馬下鄉吧"},{"start":80.179,"end":81.92,"text":"算比較高喔"},{"start":107.84,"end":109.682,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":124.13,"end":149.466,"text":"那個時候有開一個叫做安心上工可是那個時候我爭取是因為我們原住民部落不約而同每個部落都有自主防疫站所以當時希望給他們一些安心上工的一些費用好現在我有告訴原民會原民會有一個原住民就業基金我說啊我們這一些洗腎的人一個禮拜洗三天"},{"start":150.247,"end":178.394,"text":"他根本沒有辦法就業但是他又不是沒有能力工作我說能不能夠比照這種安心上工的概念一個禮拜能夠有20個小時讓他起碼有個一萬五千塊不要讓他成為部落家裡的依賴人口讓他也能夠就他的能力去做事所以原民會已經有幫我做一個規劃原地及時就業協助那些洗腎人口就業我現在也想問"},{"start":179.494,"end":200.041,"text":"我們的偏鄉醫療部長我們就是因為醫療不足的問題造成我們常常吃成藥亂吃成藥加上一些其他的因素我們的洗腎人口很多啊很辛苦啊能不能夠例如有個行動醫療行動洗腎車這樣的概念來幫助我們偏鄉可以嗎"},{"start":205.489,"end":225.925,"text":"我想解決偏鄉這個問題是我們不可逃不可避開的責任當然這個可能要跟專家討論洗聖車這樣的一個我其實我也關心過我也問過次長之內願意支持"},{"start":229.608,"end":247.835,"text":"如果專家覺得這樣的效益或者成果是不錯我覺得我們衛福部應該要支持偏鄉行動洗車可以嗎好那我接下來我要問另外一個問題你知道嗎我們的原建法已經通過一年"},{"start":248.945,"end":266.29,"text":"去年的12月29號在國衛院那邊基於原建法有一個原住民健康研究中心正式揭牌我只剩不到兩個禮拜就要投票選舉我還特別去參加揭牌啊我只是為了傳達一個概念啊"},{"start":267.23,"end":286.407,"text":"可不可以我們好不容易爭取到的這個是當時逐條審查最後協商10秒我爭取到的四個字把文化安全四個字寫入法條中可是我說我們連這個原住民族健康研究中心難道這個主任不可以是我們原住民嗎一年了沒消沒息"},{"start":292.455,"end":305.604,"text":"部長文化安全的概念要從這個地方做起為什麼我這樣講你去看原住民族健康研究中心的網站空白一片連組織什麼都沒有因為他是用堅韌的給副院長堅韌的這樣對待我們原住民族健康研究中心好不容易等了十幾年的法"},{"start":320.831,"end":348.387,"text":"我們要從人開始做起我們的資料也沒有過去以來都是原民會拜託國衛院做這個原住民的健康統計年報那原住民健康統計年報是我們原住民族健康研究中心很重要的工作所以這個部分我拜託部長你們幫忙一下好不好然後最後一個議題我知道我沒有時間我講但是到我辦公室來談就是我講的"},{"start":349.588,"end":374.81,"text":"文件站對原住民太好了做得太好了過去蔡英文8年從以前不到1億的經費竟然現在一年可以超過13億也有我們的長照基金來做文件站做得太好了但是多少年來我們做詬病一直在唸在罵的就是沒有照顧到我們的重度失能老人"},{"start":375.882,"end":395.887,"text":"沒有沒有好不容易今年8月有一個原鄉住宿市長照機構在台東開幕平原你知道嗎光是三元平原平均餘命就差三歲結果呢你們也有一個獎勵補助的計劃竟然沒有例如像屏東縣這種大縣"},{"start":397.947,"end":418.598,"text":"原住民大縣也沒有任何一個原鄉因為你們說不需要床位足夠你就沒有文化安全的概念了嘛怎麼會認為這樣子呢所以我覺得這個部分不要用捕破網的方式你們說不需要床位"},{"start":419.198,"end":446.148,"text":"Go!然後用了一個多元發展計畫沒有納入山地園鄉我們要住宿室你們給我社區室然後呢你們的方法叫做多元結果呢創新我也不知道在創新什麼你們所謂的多元就是日照加夜照我告訴各位加拖連夜照都不要做他說很危險我又沒有醫生我重症患者我怎麼處理而且我也要喘息啊"},{"start":447.128,"end":462.154,"text":"沒有不需要他們不要所以到最後我們的重症患者我們的重度失能還是需要住宿型的安養中心結果遠離部落排不到公費床位然後也沒有能力去就在家裡"},{"start":463.533,"end":489.524,"text":"所以很辛苦我希望賴總統已經長照3.0了他也講了不能不包含原鄉住宿型的機構不要用一般的模式我們既然有原建法既然大家承認文化安全文化敏感就是表示要積極性的差別待遇我們不能用一般的標準去看這件事所以呢因為時間的關係我希望這個部分可以到辦公室我們一起討論可以嗎"},{"start":490.384,"end":501.51,"text":"吳麗華"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":905,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時20分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。請教您一個問題，您衛福部那邊有沒有資料，或者你知不知道我們原住民族洗腎的人數，您大概知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：所有原住民，要看健保署是不是有資料。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們剛剛突破60萬人口，60萬人，您知道原住民洗腎人口多少嗎？"],["龐副署長一鳴：我們洗腎的時候不用申報族群，所以要另外再處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以不知道，對不對？"],["龐副署長一鳴：要另外再查。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，部長，之前很謝謝您跟我們一起推動原住民族健康法。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原住民族健康法為什麼要設立？就我們講的，原住民的健康資料要建立，要不然我們要解決健康不平等的現象，連最基本的資料都沒有，我們在談論的時候都不知道根據什麼。那我再請教部長您一個問題，你有聽過那瑪夏鄉吧？"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很遠，很遠喔！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，假設那瑪夏鄉一千多的人口，常住人口600人好了，不是假設，這是真的啦！他的常住人口假設600人，他的洗腎人口有28人，那個比例大概是22%，您覺得多還是不多，高還是低？"],["邱部長泰源：算比較高。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：高嘛！好，那這麼遠，他們一個禮拜要洗腎3次，很辛苦啊！所以我自己很不忍心。我在疫情期間，謝謝勞動部那個時候有開一個叫做安心上工，可是那個時候我爭取是因為我們原住民部落，不約而同的每個部落都有自主防疫站，所以當時希望給他們一些安心上工的費用。","現在我有告訴原民會，原民會有一個原住民就業基金，我說我們這些洗腎的人，一個禮拜洗3天，他根本沒有辦法就業，但是他又不是沒有能力工作。我說能不能夠比照這種安心上工的概念，一個禮拜能夠有20個小時，讓他起碼有個1萬5,000塊，不要讓他成為部落、家裡的依賴人口，讓他也能夠就他的能力去做事。所以原民會已經有幫我規劃，原地即時就業，協助那些洗腎人口就業。","我現在也想問，我們的偏鄉醫療，部長，我們就是因為醫療不足的問題，造成我們常常吃成藥，亂吃成藥加上一些其他的因素，我們的洗腎人口很多，很辛苦啊！能不能夠，例如有個行動醫療、行動洗腎車這樣的概念來幫助我們偏鄉，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想解決偏鄉這個問題，真的是我們不可逃，不可避開的責任。這個可能要跟專家討論，洗腎車這樣的可行性，只要是說……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我也關心過，我也問過次長，願意支持……"],["邱部長泰源：如果專家覺得這樣的效益或者成果不錯，我覺得我們衛福部應該要支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這節省醫療資源，好不好？偏鄉行動洗腎車可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定往這方面來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，接下來我要問另外一個問題，你知道嗎？我們的原健法已經通過一年，去年的12月29號在國衛院那邊，基於原健法，有一個原住民健康研究中心正式揭牌。我只剩不到兩個禮拜就要投票選舉，還特別去參加揭牌。我只是為了傳達一個概念，可不可以，我們好不容易爭取到的，這個是當時逐條審查最後協商的10秒，我爭取到的四個字，把文化安全四個字寫入法條中。可是我說這個原住民族健康研究中心，難道這個主任不可以是我們原住民嗎？一年了，沒消沒息。部長，文化安全的概念要從這個地方做起。為什麼我這樣講？你去看原住民族健康研究中心的網站，空白一片，連組織什麼都沒有，因為他是用兼任的，給副院長兼任的。這樣對待我們，原住民族健康研究中心，好不容易等了十幾年的法，我們要從人開始做起，我們的資料也沒有，過去以來都是原民會拜託國衛院做這個原住民的健康統計年報，原住民健康統計年報是我們原住民族健康研究中心很重要的工作。所以這個部分，我拜託部長你們幫忙一下好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最後一個議題，我知道我沒有時間了，會後到我辦公室來談，就是我講的，文健站對原住民太好了，做得太好了。過去蔡英文8年，從以前不到1億的經費，竟然現在1年可以超過13億，也有我們的長照基金來做文健站做得太好了。但是多少年來我們詬病，一直在唸、在罵的，就是沒有照顧到我們的重度失能老人，沒有，沒有！好不容易今年8月，有一個原鄉住宿式長照機構在臺東開幕。你知道嗎？光是山原、平原的平均餘命就差3歲，結果呢？你們也有一個獎勵補助的計畫，竟然沒有像屏東縣這種原住民大縣，也沒有任何一個原鄉，因為你們說不需要，床位足夠，你就沒有文化安全的概念了嘛！怎麼會認為這樣子呢？所以我覺得這個部分不要用捕破網的方式。你們說不需要，床位夠，然後用了一個多元發展計畫，沒有納入山地原鄉。我們要住宿式，你們給我社區式，然後呢？你們的方法叫做多元，結果創新，我也不知道在創新什麼，你們所謂的多元就是日照加夜照，我告訴各位，家托連夜照都不要做。他說很危險，我又沒有醫生，重症患者我怎麼處理？而且我也要喘息啊！沒有，他們不要，所以到最後我們的重症患者，我們的重度失能者，還是需要住宿型的安養中心，結果遠離部落，排不到公費床位，然後也沒有能力去，就在家裡，所以很辛苦。","賴總統已經長照3.0了，他也講不能不包含原鄉，住宿型的機構，不要用一般的模式。我們既然有原健法，既然大家承認文化安全、文化敏感，就是表示要積極性的差別待遇。我們不能用一般的標準去看這件事，因為時間的關係，我希望這個部分可以到辦公室談，我們一起討論可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，我想你關心的就是我們要努力的，我們的進度會到委員辦公室來報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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1我希望未來我們的任何的國家典禮畢竟文化部是台語的主責機關不要再犯同樣的錯誤了任何一個頒獎典禮部長可以承諾我嗎"},{"start":272.113,"end":293.543,"text":"經馬獎他本身在整個單位適不適合用國家語言發展法裏面施行細則裏面第9條就有講說我們捐助的財團我們資助的財團法人應該要提供語言多元服務第9條裏面就有講到這一條能不能適用在經馬獎我們正在演一工確認好那請你們釐清好請你們釐清好謝謝沒問題那再來就是說"},{"start":298.973,"end":328.409,"text":"我們現在有一個臺語家庭的計畫嘛我想要來了解一下臺語家庭的計畫因為從9月就說開始可以讓地方政府來申請了那我參加一些活動的時候也都有叫我掃QR code可以去做這個登記這樣子但是我想要知道到底有多少人知道臺語家庭的這一個計畫這個宣傳到底在哪裡啊這可不可以請是次長來說明一下嗎我們已經在晚下進行請次長跟您報告"},{"start":330.674,"end":350.196,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":350.276,"end":354.357,"text":"閱讀委員會會擴大辦理嗎?因為我想不是只有台語現在已經會講的台語家庭要來知道這件事情啦,應該是所有的人都應該要知道這個訊息,所以它應該要有一個大型的宣傳,所以你們相關的是有一些記者會大概是在什麼時候會舉辦呢?"},{"start":376.442,"end":394.599,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":394.739,"end":415.2,"text":"第一現在推廣的團體一定要知道這件事情然後相關的網路的宣傳我想這都需要一起來配合才能夠讓這件事情真正的傳承下去好嗎謝謝那再來就是延續這個問題喔因為我們其實在台語家庭的時候有講說我們需要可以有一些基地嘛那我也非常感謝文化部其實有來規劃了四座生活美學館"},{"start":416.121,"end":442.501,"text":"但是我有發現這些長社展他並沒有台語的翻譯也就是說他並沒有提供長社展的台語導覽那我想他作為一個台語家庭的基地在這個硬體環境上卻沒有支持這要如何的來落實或者是說讓大家真的每個人來到這裡都可以感受到對這裡是一個台語基地呢這問題要怎麼解決啊"},{"start":443.421,"end":466.478,"text":"這一部分文化部的所屬管所其實目前這是委員現在手上的這是我們目前做到的可是我們知道有一些場館它的長色展台語文的部分還沒有處理好這我們會在114年的時候持續辦理然後應該在年終以後114年中會全部都完成好那這個進度我們持續來追蹤那在下一題就是說我想來爭取一下這個"},{"start":467.759,"end":467.779,"text":"閱讀委員會"},{"start":483.684,"end":508.892,"text":"在這幾年疫情之後其實PIXAR這個皮克斯公司有非常多的動畫師其實都是台灣人他們也都回到台灣了還有像Netflix之前跟日本買了非常多的動畫他們畫不完現在都是台灣在畫其實我們非常多的動畫人才可是呢我們現在雖然說今年我知道他們有開會就是在動畫電影局的時候還有石潘電影劇集的話現在我們是有"},{"start":511.033,"end":538.309,"text":"來討論說是可以有一個動畫的那個節目的部分有但是在長片的部分還是沒有所以我想要了解就是我們在影視局其實有跟這些團體開一個會他其實是說因為這個現在我們的長片輔導金委員其實是來自於各個電影產業的各個領域那我想要了解這裡面的委員到底有哪些是來自動畫的領域呢?"},{"start":540.573,"end":563.213,"text":"關於委員關心這個題目我跟您講說我們有最新的狀況就是我們乾脆把動畫、電影、長片拉出來自己成立一個那個輔導金所以現在確認會有嗎?因為知道上次開會的結論是沒有的算是有各種疑慮主要是我們的廠量不夠因為在台灣做動畫的公司跟人才"},{"start":564.134,"end":590.672,"text":"剛剛您講的完全對就是它要靠加工才能生存所以當時是疑慮這個後來我想其實我自己做過動畫我做過動畫我蠻希望台灣的動畫跟漫畫跟其他的那個文學作品跟電影它可以成為一個IP所以我們已經決定要把動畫電影長片獨立製作成為一個這一項脫離所有的其他長片這一點是我們最近這一兩三天最新的決定"},{"start":591.872,"end":611.817,"text":"謝謝部長的支持,因為我想動畫其實在日本我相信都知道有非常多不同的題材可以透過動畫來處理,那現在剛剛好台灣都有這些人才,那也希望就是說,因為其實在會議第三點裡面也有提到說要如何協助他們把整個產業鏈做起來,那相關詳細的計畫是不是也可以再多久的時候送到我們辦公室呢?"},{"start":614.11,"end":623.632,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":643.977,"end":670.483,"text":"這個家族呢就把胡克敏這位大師的作品全部有一部分啦有一部分都已經捐贈到中國因為中國他們覺得中國的積極的協助他們要收藏他們的作品所以現在就有一部分都已經送到中國去了這樣子那我想了解我們在這一段上面在戰後的這一段一些重要的藝術家的作品還有支援我們上面我們可以再多做一點什麼事情呢"},{"start":671.971,"end":700.341,"text":"講到這一點是有點遺憾我們在歷史博物館其實我們裡面有非常多由中國來到台灣的一些藝術家非常有名的藝術家來到台灣之後他們也開始把他的作品本土化等等我覺得去中國化這個東西對我來講是個假議題所以我們特別對於這些作家會把作品捐給中國可能是他們個人的認同嘛因為我知道我們在電影界也有一些"},{"start":701.101,"end":718.387,"text":""},{"start":718.907,"end":739.094,"text":" bicy 剛說的啦其實他只是覺得說大家好像都不是很在乎他們所以我想在這一段我們如何跟藝術家的後代或是跟藝術家本人做更多的溝通都是非常重要因為大家來到了台灣嘛台灣現在就是族群融合我們收集各個中華文化的重要藝術作品都是非常重要就像我之前的質詢上面我們如何把這些"},{"start":739.614,"end":740.834,"text":" bicyn 提到說戰後戰後是我們台灣百分之八九十人共同的記憶然後"},{"start":768.243,"end":768.263,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":798.032,"end":798.052,"text":"黃國昌議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時12分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：李部長。"],["李部長遠：張委員，你好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。首先要討論的是我一直非常關心的三金台文字幕，即金曲獎及金鐘獎的問題。我們在上次其實已經提出要求，文化部給我的回函表示，授權內容均僅限原詞曲，不包含改編詞曲，依契約簽訂內容不建議更改原歌詞。基於尊重原作詞者的創作，如果要改為台語正字的話，恐須回頭向原作詞者再次確認，可能會使原作詞者誤解為糾正其原始用字不當，易引起不必要之誤會及爭議，所以在實際操作上較難向授權方提出因原歌詞有誤而需更正為台語正確用字之要求。","我想確認一件事情。其實我一直要求的都不是更改原歌詞！我一直要求的都是在下面多加一行字，不知道是文化部搞不清楚呢？或是我講得不夠清楚呢？這樣的回函代表根本沒有去溝通啊！這樣到底有沒有去溝通？還是不理解我在講什麼？"],["李部長遠：其實我們與轉播單位溝通過，它的確涉及到現場的一些技術問題，請局長向你做更仔細的說明，好嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["吳局長宜璇：報告委員，有關二行文字呈現的問題，我們已經與轉播單位溝通，他們表示基於電視專業的考量，二行字幕可能會影響電視畫面的整體視覺及立即性。"],["張委員雅琳：我想現在公視有很多台語的動畫都可以用二行字幕來處理，為什麼這個不行？不然公視台語台是怎麼做到的？都是文化部的啊！可不可以連絡一下，搞清楚別人是怎麼做的！"],["吳局長宜璇：OK。"],["張委員雅琳：明明就有這個技術可以執行啊！為什麼不行？你們是想擺爛不處理，還是怎麼樣？"],["吳局長宜璇：不是的。"],["張委員雅琳：可不可以改善？可不可以去了解？公視董事長也在後面，一定非常了解我們是有這樣的作法啊！可不可以去了解？"],["吳局長宜璇：是，我們以後會再與轉播單位溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：這件事情看起來是你們收到回函就決定不去溝通了，因為你們回文的意思是這樣好像會有點造成別人的困擾，所以就沒有去溝通，我覺得完全背離了你們當時對我的承諾。下次不要再有同樣的錯誤，部長，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實我們有去溝通，包括這次金馬獎的轉播，我們也去與他們溝通台語的……"],["張委員雅琳：這次金馬獎還會發生一樣的問題嗎？"],["李部長遠：他們說如果有台語歌就會用字幕，但是目前……"],["張委員雅琳：台語正字嗎？所以都有在溝通、所以不會再發生一模一樣的問題？"],["李部長遠：剛剛委員有點誤會，其實它是因為有技術問題，我們每次都有與轉播單位溝通，包括這次還沒轉播的金馬獎，我們也是先去與它溝通，譬如台語歌詞等等。據我的了解，這次剛好沒有台語歌，所以它就沒有這個問題。"],["張委員雅琳：這次是剛好沒有台語歌，不會有這樣的問題嘛！"],["李部長遠：如果有的話，他們也同意要這麼做，所以剛剛我要強調的是有去溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：這是可以解決的問題，之前我提出質詢就是希望第一次的錯誤不要再犯了，結果又來第二次！我希望明年看的時候不會又發生一模一樣的問題。","同時我們再來看預算書，114年文化部預算書第83頁，文化部捐助金馬獎5,468萬元，明年也是有這樣的預算，我希望未來在任何的國家典禮，畢竟文化部是台語的主責機關，不要再犯同樣的錯誤了，不管任何一個頒獎典禮，部長可以承諾我嗎？"],["李部長遠：金馬獎本身整個典禮適不適合用國家語言發展法裡面……"],["張委員雅琳：根據施行細則第九條，我們資助的財團法人應該要提供語言多元服務，在第九條裡面就有講到。"],["李部長遠：這一條能不能適用於金馬獎？我們正在研議、確認。"],["張委員雅琳：請你們釐清，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，現在有台語家庭的計畫，所以我想了解一下台語家庭的計畫。因為從9月就說可以開始讓地方政府申請，在我參加一些活動時也都要我掃QR Code去作登記，但是我想知道到底有多少人知道這項台語家庭的計畫？這個宣傳到底在哪裡啊？可以請次長說明一下嗎？"],["李部長遠：我們已經往下進行中，請次長向你報告。"],["李次長靜慧：報告委員，關於台語家庭的登錄網站，我們在昨天就已經整個開放，也通知了所有舉辦台語家庭相關課程或活動的單位，以及地方縣市政府，只要在這個期間有參與的都可以開始到我們這個網站登錄。在這個部分我們先處理了行政單位的通知，至於新聞稿或記者會的部分，我們也都在規劃當中。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們預計會有記者會擴大辦理嗎？我覺得不是只有台語，現在已經會講的台語家庭要知道這件事情啦！所有人都應該知道這個訊息，所以它應該要有一個大型的宣傳，你們的相關記者會大概是在什麼時候舉辦呢？"],["李次長靜慧：現在日期還沒出來，其實我們搜尋了一下，現在可以舉辦大型活動的場地，因為年底的活動比較多，目前要到12月底才有辦法找到比較合適的場地。"],["張委員雅琳：我希望能夠盡量邀請許多的團體，首先，在第一線推廣的團體一定要知道這件事情，相關的網路宣傳都要一起配合，才能讓這件事情真正的傳承下去，好嗎？謝謝。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：再來要延續這個問題，我們希望針對台語家庭能有一些基地，在此也非常感謝文化部，規劃了四座生活美學館。但是我發現這些常設展並沒有台語的翻譯，也就是說，它並沒有提供常設展的台語導覽。我認為它作為一個台語家庭的基地，在硬體環境上卻沒有支持，這樣要如何落實或是讓每個參觀的人都感覺到這裡就是台語基地呢？這個問題要怎麼解決啊？"],["李次長靜慧：關於文化部的所屬館所，現在委員手上的正是我們目前做到的，但我們知道有些場館的常設展在台語文的部分尚未處理好，我們會在114年持續辦理，應該在114年的年終會全部完成。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我們會針對這個進度持續追蹤。","再下一題，我想爭取動畫的長片輔導金。不曉得部長是否知道，其實現在有非常多的輔導金都是以長片為主，但是今年卻沒有任何一部動畫片。在這幾年的疫情之後，其實皮克斯公司有非常多動畫師都是臺灣人，現在他們也都回到臺灣了。此外，像Netflix之前向日本買了非常多的動畫，他們畫不完，現在都是台灣在畫，其實我們有非常多的動畫人才。我知道影視局他們今年與這些團體開會時是有討論到可以有動畫節目的部分，但是在長片的部分還是沒有。因此我想要了解，現在的長片輔導金委員都是來自於電影產業的各個領域，到底其中有哪些委員是來自於動畫的領域呢？"],["李部長遠：關於委員所關心的這個題目，我們最新的狀況就是乾脆把動畫電影產品拉出來，自己成立一個輔導金，這是我們剛剛……"],["張委員雅琳：現在確認會有嗎？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：但上次開會的結論是沒有的？"],["李部長遠：上次有各種疑慮，主要是我們的產量不夠，因為在臺灣做動畫的公司與人才，就如委員剛剛所講的，他們要靠加工才能生存，當時的疑慮就是這個部分。後來我思考了一下，其實我自己做過動畫，蠻希望臺灣的動畫、漫畫與其他的文學作品及電影能成為一個IP，所以我們已經決定把動畫電影長片獨立成為一項，脫離其他所有的長片，這是我們這二、三天最新的決定。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝部長的支持！我相信大家都知道在日本有非常多不同的題材可以透過動畫處理，現在剛好臺灣都有這些人才。其實在會議第三點也有提到，如何協助他們把整個產業鏈做起來，至於相關的詳細計畫可以在多久時間送到我的辦公室呢？"],["李部長遠：年底，12月底可以。"],["張委員雅琳：12月底？好。"],["李部長遠：因為整個辦法已經大概出來了。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。","下一個，我們最近接獲一件比較傷心的事情。胡克敏是臺灣戰後一位重要的藝術家，他有非常多有名的水墨畫作品。但因為我們在藝術保存上似乎沒有太著重戰後藝術家的這一段，所以這個家族就將胡克敏大師一部分的作品捐贈給中國，因為他們覺得中國很積極協助收藏大師的作品，於是現在有一部分的作品都已經送到中國了。我想要了解，對於戰後重要藝術家的作品及支援，我們還可以再多做一點什麼事情呢？"],["李部長遠：講到這一點，也是有點遺憾！其實在我們歷史博物館有非常多從中國來到臺灣的藝術家、在戰後的本土化作品，我覺得去中國化對我而言是一個假議題，因此，這些藝術家會把作品捐給中國可能是他們個人的認同吧！據我所知，在電影界也有一些前輩、導演把作品捐給中國，我個人是覺得蠻遺憾的！因此，未來針對這個部分，我們會加強了解及蒐購。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我是收到他們的陳情，他們未必是像部長剛剛所說的，其實他們只是覺得大家好像不是很在乎。所以在這一端要如何與藝術家的後代，或藝術家本人做更多的溝通是非常的重要。既然大家來到了臺灣，臺灣就是一個族群融合的地方，我們蒐集各類中華文化的藝術作品都是非常重要，誠如我之前的質詢，我們如何讓這些將臺灣變成世界華語的文化中心，因此，我希望是否能有一些相關的計畫去執行？"],["李部長遠：是，我覺得委員講的非常重要，在我們過去的蒐購及捐贈對象中，也有蠻多與胡克敏先生一樣背景的人，其實戰後是我們臺灣百分之八、九十的人共同的記憶，而這段記憶包括藝術品、包括作品、包括歷史建物都是非常非常重要，可以凝聚我們……"],["張委員雅琳：好，我懂。部長，是不是可以給我一份相關的規劃、計畫？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候可以給我的辦公室？"],["李部長遠：應該是很快吧！1個月，因為這個部分已經在做了。"],["張委員雅琳：既然已經在做，是不是2個禮拜就可以給我了？"],["李部長遠：1個月就好了。"],["張委員雅琳：1個月嗎？"],["李部長遠：要整理一下。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，部長請回。","接下來請黃國昌委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752c114fa3632d8fce5ed5a0382e2f733d974ba16637283b6ccc2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:06:35 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你說的都有道理啦但我現在只問你一件事啦"},{"start":279.085,"end":280.627,"text":"醫療糾紛沒有鑑定,訴訟審理沒有辦法進行。」"},{"start":294.52,"end":299.381,"text":"他所受到的侵害誰要來補償他?我想衛福部也可以幫忙對國家政策的推行你還是機關本會主義衛福部告訴你我當初你修法就是這樣子造成整個法律你講得很有道理但是就沒有人要去跟你感情"},{"start":318.846,"end":341.81,"text":"沒有人要幹定整個訴訟審理沒辦法繼續在立委在這裡跟你們講了兩個月以後還是沒有進度也沒有溝通有安排進度也有溝通事實上在上任然後你在進度和溝通的態度你就是我繼續維持我本位主義我們沒有維持我們本位主義現在現在我知道我跟妳說我跟妳說就是我們想說我現在跟妳問妳一件事"},{"start":344.591,"end":365.138,"text":"您講的都很有道理,但是沒辦法醫生買,醫生會也沒人買,現在要怎麼做?我問您是如何解決這個問題?所以我們才去拜託去拜訪那個全國醫事聯合會就我所知,醫事部門的人希望重新再修法,你有可能嗎?你接受嗎?"},{"start":366.331,"end":373.979,"text":"就目前來講我們可能還要審慎的考慮你就是不願意接受你現在就是不願意你現在所指的理由你就是說平平專業人士很多啊白人的專業人士就發動具名是怎麼你們做醫生的沒辦法你們的態度就是這樣啊"},{"start":385.231,"end":409.144,"text":"問責制度問責機能這是一個立法你就是認為理所當然現在我問你是執行面你利益良善而且是正確無誤可是執行面執行面做不出來要怎麼做啊那你不可以說醫生說你就一定要來幫我做的是我們當然不能明顯說我們才說我們要盡力的所以我問你的不是盡力喔你已經盡力你已經拖到過去了已經背後了"},{"start":411.505,"end":424.97,"text":"被告的你若訴訟當事人說我的案件八個月全台灣每一個每一個訴訟當事人每一個案件都沒有辦法鑑定每個人都拖在那裡跟你沒關係捏因為案件沒到你這裡來是檢察官沒跟董事請的事情捏"},{"start":431.601,"end":444.108,"text":"你現在結果說跟你們無關的火是你們放的現在你們置身度外都跟你們無關的事不關己責任都在檢察官和訴訟當事人身上可是就沒辦法鑑定"},{"start":448.346,"end":452.709,"text":"這個是國事會議的結論我們必須去做弱勢你現在國事會議的結論你做廳長的人你沒辦法解決我現在立委跟你接觸你說你叫國事會議執行你就沒找出解決的問題的方法來我們有期望解決的方案你到現在還在堅持說你沒辦法修法"},{"start":469.521,"end":481.947,"text":"你沒有修法也可以但是你告訴我怎麼解決我沒有要求一定要修法也許醫省會這邊他們有他們的堅持我們尊重所以你認為醫省會的制度運作是錯誤的嗎我再問你聽長你認為醫省會運作的制度是錯誤的嗎你知道醫省會怎麼運作嗎我知道"},{"start":493.672,"end":503.836,"text":"就醫療鑑定的部分先從出鑑醫師出鑑醫師從醫學中心來找出鑑醫師出鑑醫師然後呢對 然後再提到醫審會去做審議醫審會是不是集體共識決是不是可以修改出鑑醫師的意見它是一致決的 一致決的對 要一致共識在監察院曾經在109年也曾經為了一個匿名鑑定的部分提出一個調查報告也針對醫審會這個部分是調查報告還是糾正報告你要講什麼前策"},{"start":522.544,"end":530.489,"text":"就沒有修正你現在在說一個調查報告我問你啦大家醫省會所有的委員對初見報告可不可以下指導期可不可以修正可不可以改是可以的阿你這樣子叫初見的醫生去具名公平嗎很抱歉我們有講初見醫師是不用具名的要具名的是誰就是醫省會的所有的委員具名所有的委員更冤枉"},{"start":552.664,"end":570.737,"text":"因為我對出鑑的醫生有一點意見然後你叫我出鑑你叫我大家都要具名請問到庭上去結問的要是誰負責去用審理的審判的時候要去上出法這個在我們有跟法官講說"},{"start":571.718,"end":593.306,"text":"如果是這種情形 如果他有鑑定不足的部分 儘量用書補充鑑定的方式來實施 如果非必要的話啊 必要的時候是叫誰那就請出見 不是請出見委員來 不是請出見醫師來請問那就有具名的委員了 其中一個具名委員 其中一個到底是誰啊"},{"start":594.446,"end":606.176,"text":"你名字沒有給我們我們怎麼知道通知是誰一次如果有五個六個要找誰那每個人都有每他的專業我們根據這部分的專業也許那他為什麼要花這個時間去為這個鑑定報告去負責呢"},{"start":612.201,"end":628.017,"text":"所以你的意思是醫生會你覺得很簡單的但是他們就沒辦法運作醫生也不愛捏那怎麼辦我也知道他們的顧慮啦事實上我剛才問你的事實上我們有個幾位醫師也有報告過具名瞎出來報告比較不造假是不是啦你跟我說這是基本的問責機制啦"},{"start":629.438,"end":651.836,"text":"就好像我們最高法院以前的秘密分爛的時代保密分爛的時代 如果法官都不具名 或者是...規定意見具名勢必難以避免案件關係人進行關說請託之情事 需求鑑定人能做出對極有力的鑑定如果有不利於己方的鑑定 案件關係人更可能進一步對鑑定人進行騷擾或報復好 現在來了"},{"start":655.399,"end":672.931,"text":"B.B.醫生,好多關係啦,好多關係啦,這樣現在,如果這樣下去,醫生沒人要做如果把這個理由推演下去的話,所有的審查都通通不要具名,包括法院的判決書都不要具名,法官的名字在審理的時候也都不要具名"},{"start":674.141,"end":695.471,"text":"因為我們也有朋友啊那這樣子可以用這樣的推演說我們會被受關說現在是這樣你職務上你不可規避啊分案給你你就要審啊那這個醫生呢他是法定的職權耶法定的任務耶你就是醫生人家醫生會是這樣沒有錯可是醫生可以說我不當委員了啊他不是真的法官是以此為業他可以說我不當啦我不當委員啊"},{"start":703.689,"end":714.479,"text":"他不是以此為業 以委員為業我現在都不想問你道歉 因為你說了有道歉 但是醫生就是不愛這要怎麼解決你沒有想出來 你要拖下去 這幾百個訴訟當事人的權益到底還要讓你們拖多久 我就問這個問題"},{"start":726.991,"end":738.977,"text":"要再拖下去或想辦法你今天在這裡跟我們說想辦法可是你要想多久我們真的有在做事我們包括我們安排了聯繫會議兩個月一次不是兩個月一次立委諮詢以後兩個月才有開會我們請法官到意見會那邊去做說明"},{"start":744.9,"end":761.786,"text":"這部分我們都有在做,我們知道他們的難處是什麼事實上我們開了三次會、諮詢會,會員隊的人也有到我們這邊來做一些現在就是司法院都很大,跟你說也不想聽我們非常尊重委員給我們的指教對啦,我會指教,我們就等著審預算的時候來指教啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1224,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時6分）主席，各位大家午安，請刑事廳廳長。"],["主席：麻煩廳長。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：廳長，上一次我在這裡質詢的時候，我記得你說我們討論醫糾的糾紛鑑定，你最後說你們會派主責的法官跟醫事司跟醫審會的委員要來跟我們做一些說明，然後從那時候到現在通通都沒有說明，但你遇到我都會說要去拜訪我跟我說明？"],["李廳長釱任：不是，可不可以給我時間回應一下？"],["林委員淑芬：對，我就是要聽你說明。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員。事實上，我們在上個禮拜有跟衛福部還有其他人員，還有幾個醫師……"],["林委員淑芬：我這樣子問好了，從我在院會質詢，我們要求行政部門要跟司法院跨院會去討論這一件事情，因為整個醫療糾紛的訴訟停擺到現在，從法律通過，你們提了修法案208條的修法到現在7個多月了，整個訴訟停擺，你知道被醫審會退回的鑑定案件有多少件嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：這部分在檢察署那邊是三百多件，事實上，我們自己調查的是沒那麼多，就是審判中的是沒那麼多，我知道目前只有兩件還是三件而已。我跟委員報告一下……"],["林委員淑芬：就卡關卡在檢察署，當然送不到你們那裡啊！你不要把我們當瘋子，你當我們是瘋子？"],["李廳長釱任：我跟委員報告一下，我們事實上安排在11月29日……"],["林委員淑芬：你們開過幾次會？跨院會的協調討論了幾次？"],["李廳長釱任：11月29日要做跨部會的協商，另外我們安排11月27日下午，我們要跟醫師……"],["林委員淑芬：之前開過幾次會？"],["李廳長釱任：之前也有跟法務部聯繫過。"],["林委員淑芬：聯繫過，沒有開過會？"],["李廳長釱任：因為我們有跟衛福部約時間，他們一直說沒有空，所以我們才訂在11月29日要跨部會，包括醫事司跟心健司，還有……"],["林委員淑芬：所以正式的會議是29號才要開？"],["李廳長釱任：11月29日，我們私底下的拜會部分在11月27日，我們會拜會醫師全聯會，我們會去跟他們說明一些鑑定心智的相關問題，也知道他們想瞭解他們……"],["林委員淑芬：現在不是你們去跟他們宣導，現在是你要聽人家講什麼。"],["李廳長釱任：我們是要去瞭解他們的顧忌跟他們的需求是什麼，我們看能不能提高他們的鑑定意願……"],["林委員淑芬：我在10月1日質詢，你在11月29日也就是兩個月以後才要開會，然後這兩個月中間沒有任何進度，你們相互之間也還沒有正式的溝通過，然後正式的會議要到11月29日，這已經很慢了耶，你知不知道有多少人……"],["李廳長釱任：要配合他們單位的時間……"],["林委員淑芬：你有想到你們機關本位主義，你有想過訴訟當事人的權益在哪裡？"],["李廳長釱任：我也跟委員報告，我們也有在網路上搜尋有沒有其他機關願意做醫療鑑定，的確是有，在南部有個協會有在做，它也曾經參與過法院的一些相關醫療糾紛……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要跟我講曾經，我現在問你的是現在有沒有人有意願要做。我再問你一個問題，你叫人家自然人要具名，到底是具名比較敢把這個鑑定報告真實的寫出來？還是具名比較不造假？還是要不具名？"],["李廳長釱任：跟委員說明，事實上我們這個修法是來自106年的司改國是會議的結論，我們為了要落實具名問責……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！我知道，理想很豐滿，但是現實很骨感，理想是很正確的，但是做不到，現在問題就是你們是要保障訴訟當事人的權益，讓這個鑑定報告的真實性和公正性要確保，可是執行起來是沒有了，什麼都沒有了。"],["李廳長釱任：但是如果以另外一個方向去思考……"],["林委員淑芬：醫療糾紛連鑑定都沒有了……"],["李廳長釱任：如果訴訟當事人連想問的機會都沒有的話，是不是能保障他訴訟當事人的權益？"],["林委員淑芬：你說的都有道理，但我現在只問你一件事，醫療糾紛沒有鑑定，訴訟審理沒有辦法進行，這件事要怎麼解決？"],["李廳長釱任：這個我們努力再溝通。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，你要努力多久？努力一年、努力兩年、努力三年？那些提告者的權益要怎麼辦？他所受到的侵害要怎樣來補償他？"],["李廳長釱任：我想衛福部也可以幫忙對國家政策的推行，他們也有像他的政策……"],["林委員淑芬：你還是機關本位主義。"],["李廳長釱任：這不是機關本位主義。"],["林委員淑芬：衛福部告訴你，當初你修法就是這樣子造成整個法律……你講的很有道理，但是就沒有人要去鑑定，沒有人要鑑定，整個訴訟審理就沒辦法繼續，立委在這裡跟你們講了兩個月以後還是沒有進度，也沒有溝通。"],["李廳長釱任：我們有安排進度，也有溝通，事實上在上一……"],["林委員淑芬：你的進度和溝通的態度就是繼續維持我的本位主義。"],["李廳長釱任：我們沒有維持我們本位主義。"],["林委員淑芬：現在我知道了……"],["李廳長釱任：我們是想了解他們的想法，以及如何提高他們的鑑定意願。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在只問你一件事，你們說的都很有道理，但是沒有半個醫生願意，醫審會也沒有人要，現在要怎麼辦？我問你是如何解決這個問題。"],["李廳長釱任：所以我們才會去拜託、去拜訪全國醫師聯合會。"],["林委員淑芬：就我所知，醫事部門的人希望重新再修法，你有可能嗎？你接受嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：就目前來講，我們可能還要審慎的考慮。"],["林委員淑芬：你就是不願意接受……"],["李廳長釱任：因為新的鑑定制度的構成……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在所持的理由就是反正專業人士很多啊！別人的專業人士就有辦法具名，為什麼做醫生的沒辦法？你們的態度就是這樣啊！"],["李廳長釱任：問責制度，問責機能，這是一個立法的方向。"],["林委員淑芬：你就是認為理所當然，現在我問你的是，執行面利益良善，而且是正確無誤，可是執行面做不出來要怎麼辦？你又不能勉強醫生一定要替你們做。"],["李廳長釱任：是，我們當然不能勉強醫生。"],["林委員淑芬：他不願意怎麼辦？"],["李廳長釱任：所以我們才說我們要盡力去溝通……"],["林委員淑芬：所以我問你的不是盡力喔，你已經盡力，你已經拖過8個月了，如果訴訟當事人說他的案件經過8個月，全臺灣每一個訴訟當事人、每一個案件都沒有辦法鑑定，每個人都拖在那裡，跟你沒關係啊，因為案件沒到你這裡來，是檢察官跟訴訟當事人的事情，你現在說跟你沒關係，火是你們放的，現在你們置身度外，都跟你們沒關係，事不關己，責任都在檢察官和訴訟當事人身上，可是就沒辦法鑑定。"],["李廳長釱任：這個是國是會議的結論，我們必須去落實。"],["林委員淑芬：你說這是國是會議的結論，你做廳長的人，你沒辦法解決？現在立委跟你質詢，你說你是照國是會議執行，你就沒提出解決問題的方法。"],["李廳長釱任：我們有期望要找到解決的方案。"],["林委員淑芬：你沒有，你到現在還在堅持你們沒有要修法，沒有修法也可以，但是你告訴我怎麼解決？我沒有要求一定要修法。"],["李廳長釱任：也許醫審會有他們的堅持，我們是尊重，但是醫界……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你認為醫審會的制度運作是錯誤的嗎？我再問你，廳長，你認為醫審會運作的制度是錯誤的嗎？你知道醫審會怎麼運作嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：我知道啊！就醫療鑑定的部分，先從醫學中心來找初鑑醫師……"],["林委員淑芬：然後呢？"],["李廳長釱任：然後再提到醫審會去做審議。"],["林委員淑芬：醫審會是不是集體共識決？是不是可以修改初鑑醫師的意見？"],["李廳長釱任：它是一致決的。"],["林委員淑芬：對，要一致共識。"],["李廳長釱任：監察院曾經在109年也曾經為了一個匿名鑑定的部分提出一個調查報告，針對醫審會這個部分……"],["林委員淑芬：是調查報告還是糾正報告？你要講清楚。"],["李廳長釱任：調查報告。"],["林委員淑芬：就沒有糾正，你現在說一個調查報告。"],["李廳長釱任：但是調查報告是希望他們能有所改善。"],["林委員淑芬：我問你啦，醫審會所有的委員對初鑑報告可不可以下指導棋？可不可以修正？可不可以改？"],["李廳長釱任：是可以的。"],["林委員淑芬：你這樣子叫初鑑的醫生具名，這樣公平嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：很抱歉，我們有講初鑑醫師是不用具名的，要具名的是誰？就是醫審會的所有委員具名。"],["林委員淑芬：所有的委員更冤枉，因為對初鑑的醫生有一點意見，然後你叫我初鑑，你叫大家都要具名，請問到庭上去詰問的是誰要負責？審判的時候要出庭去跟法官講。"],["李廳長釱任：如果是這種情形，我們有跟法官講，如果他有鑑定不足的部分，儘量用補充鑑定的方式來實施，如果非必要的話。"],["林委員淑芬：必要的時候是叫誰？"],["李廳長釱任：不是請初鑑醫師來做詰問。"],["林委員淑芬：那叫誰啊？"],["李廳長釱任：那就由具名的委員的其中一個……"],["林委員淑芬：具名的委員其中一個到底是誰啊！你名字沒有給我，我們怎麼知道通知誰？一次如果有五個、六個要找誰？"],["李廳長釱任：每個人都有他的專業，我們根據這個部分的專業……"],["林委員淑芬：那他為什麼要花這個時間去為這個鑑定報告負責呢？所以你的意思是你覺得醫審會很簡單，但是他們沒辦法運作，醫生也不喜歡，那怎麼辦？"],["李廳長釱任：我也知道他們的顧慮，事實上我們有跟幾位醫師也有溝通過。"],["林委員淑芬：我剛才問你的，具名寫出來的報告比較不造假是不是？你告訴我。"],["李廳長釱任：這是基本的問責機制，就好像我們最高法院以前秘密分案的時代、保密分案的時代，如果法官都不具名……"],["林委員淑芬：衛福部有跟你講，鑑定意見具名勢必難以避免案件關係人進行關說請託之情事，需求鑑定人能做出對己有利的鑑定，如果有不利於己方的鑑定，案件關係人更可能進一步對鑑定人進行騷擾或報復。好，現在來了，醫生有很多關係啦，這樣現在他們就跟你說，如果這樣的作法，很多人就不做了。"],["李廳長釱任：如果把這個理由推演下去的話，所有的審查通通都不要具名，包括法院的判決書也都不要具名，法官的名字在審理的時候也都不要具名，因為我們也有朋友啊，那也可以用這樣的推演我們會被說成關說。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦，現在是這樣，你在職務上不可規避啊，分案給你，你就要審啊！"],["李廳長釱任：醫審會是法定的職權耶，法定的任務耶！"],["林委員淑芬：醫審會是這樣沒有錯，可是醫生可以說我不當委員了啊，他不是像你們法官是以此為業，他可以說我不當了，我不當委員啊，他不是以此為業，不是以委員為業。我現在都不問你道理，因為你說的是有道理，但是醫生就是不愛，這要怎麼解決？"],["李廳長釱任：這個問題我們來想辦法。"],["林委員淑芬：你就想不出來，你要拖多久？你告訴我們要拖多久？"],["李廳長釱任：我們有我們的步驟，慢慢去做溝通。"],["林委員淑芬：那這幾百個訴訟當事人的權益到底還要讓你們拖多久？我就問這個問題，要拖多久啊？你想辦法，你光在這裡跟我們說想辦法，可是你要想多久？"],["李廳長釱任：我們都一直在做事，包括我們安排的聯繫會議……"],["林委員淑芬：兩個月一次。"],["李廳長釱任：不是兩個月一次。"],["林委員淑芬：所以立委質詢以後，兩個月才要開會？"],["李廳長釱任：我們請法官到醫鑑會那邊去做說明，這部分我們都有在做，我們知道他們的難處是什麼，事實上我們開了三次會，衛福部的人也有到我們這邊來做一些……"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你講啦，現在司法院都很大，跟你說也不聽。"],["李廳長釱任：我們也非常尊重委員給我們的指教，真的！"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，我會指教，就等著審預算的時候來指教！時間的關係，OK，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637520647c23dc53e62815f16e2c62e3913b474ba16637283b6ccc1dff94e1de332545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"12:06:31 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to 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哪有錢這樣你同意吧"},{"start":58.462,"end":72.295,"text":"我一切都是以人民的健康為資質一生的資質你都這樣麻吉就是人家怎麼捏你的部主怎麼企圖我還是跟委員報告一下我到部裡面來深深的覺得我們部裡面的所有的官僚很足啊真的是非常的努力啦我派人死要死聽說有署長我有官威始祖啊那東西大家都知道啊出到這個部長就"},{"start":80.763,"end":83.364,"text":"現在大家最現在來講喔你夢在想啦一個是波波醫一個本土醫啊現在來講的話"},{"start":111.035,"end":135.451,"text":"博博宜現在把國外的外國全部加進來了所以把美國日本通通阿布朗當加進來了現在總共排隊多少6百多個人排隊對不對一年50個民族要排12年啊牙醫有6206百多嘛一年50排12年啊排12年啊包括所有的國外的嘛不是說國外醫學院畢業的啦"},{"start":140.778,"end":157.194,"text":"國外的有的 比如說哈佛的你把哈佛的John Hopkins的跟波波擺在一起這東西炒到多多的放在一起 要怎麼議這東西就是大家混這個在114年我們在這邊有時候修法就變成這樣子來 這個大家混我跟你講 現在來說"},{"start":166.092,"end":167.133,"text":"請問一下牙醫多少人"},{"start":185.609,"end":197.997,"text":"一萬七左右來來來我們看一萬六一萬七我們現在的醫病比大概一千三百五十一個牙醫服務一千三百五十個人每一年增加五百位我這數字對吧不對請指教"},{"start":207.203,"end":224.711,"text":"每年台灣391個新生可能還會加僑生或等等所以依照研究420個畢業如果說加上原來的不是每次都有50吧大概440個可是還要想一下考照率對 考照率怎麼樣考照率95%的過啊"},{"start":228.083,"end":236.975,"text":"口罩的百分之九十五百分之九十五平均並不是偷偷平均並不是到九十五大概九成左右啦所以這個問題很嚴重的問題是什麼"},{"start":246.687,"end":268.942,"text":"我們如果按照現在這樣已經有一點over supply我們就會幾年後跟日本一樣一比一千人一個牙醫服務一千人就變成牙醫就崩盤東京是一比八百六十一福岡一比九百五十一大阪一比一牙醫師下班以後還去看Uber還要做外送員主席都知道啊"},{"start":277.869,"end":283.277,"text":"有些人說我昨天回來喔 抱歉你本來找我人以前對台灣發讚的有扣就得了有扣就得了啦 這個部長你都知道囉"},{"start":292.545,"end":319.922,"text":"請問邏輯你現在怎麼解本土裔跟國外裔怎麼取得平衡你告訴我怎麼做是這樣子我們當然臺灣也是國際化的一個國家所以我們我跟委員報告就是像即使像哈佛或像那個大學他們都有國際學生他說的國際學生大概是他們的比例大概8到10%所以我們如果一年有400位牙醫的本土生"},{"start":320.682,"end":334.075,"text":"那乘以我們目前5大概8%比例上是跟國際間是接軌的啦你現在告訴我怎麼解因為時間快差不多到了齁這個馬上人家上街頭訴求你怎麼樣解讓"},{"start":336.519,"end":358.961,"text":"本土小洋衣也能夠吞進去讓國外的洋衣也能夠吞進去你該怎麼處理你該告訴我怎麼處理我想我們還是第一個我們還是重申我們維持每年50個50個還有百十多年這是國際性的這1到10年來都沒有變我們也不會去增加第二個我們在學歷的認定就按照110年6月通過的法的修法"},{"start":359.542,"end":359.562,"text":"偏鄉計畫"},{"start":381.707,"end":404.282,"text":"他的確需要去補足現在限定是55個沒有牙醫師的鄉鎮我們給阿你偏鄉機會就是為波波來開門了沒有沒有沒有完全沒有實習現在已經不去做實習這邊是我們用本國的而且是有執照的24億裡面是不是絕對沒有波波是不是講一下確定一下目前沒有目前沒有以後也沒有啊不要目前你"},{"start":405.503,"end":422.439,"text":"沒有那種為了潑潑實習那一套當然如果說他是國外的學歷我們是以本國優先嘛那如果說譬如說他是雪梨大姐畢業然後就下這個國外預先其實他有執照啦其實這個應該目前也被排除掉現在我們以國"},{"start":424.619,"end":447.634,"text":"國內畢業的優先喔不是優先啦一定啦百分之百啦現在問題是這55個偏鄉真的就是需要牙醫師啦所以還是有可能撲撲嘛那是沒有現在不會用撲撲那大家所擔心的是開放實習名額那我們現在又做的完全沒有這回事"},{"start":449.14,"end":462.904,"text":"最後一個我就請問你喔面對這個爭議我提供一個建議來一個總量管制大家的科技可以嗎總量管制管理是國內國外的科技考試你們定考試你們定可以嗎"},{"start":467.721,"end":479.949,"text":"總量管制!就是不管你國內國外的總量管制!這樣子的話!柏坡跟仁土居就可以取得平衡點!大家考試來評實力!沒有了!你現在總量管制!你現在沒有總量管制啦!總量管制落實!確實落實!不要專門為柏坡開後門!你才有錢啦!"},{"start":497.065,"end":497.79,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時58分）謝謝主席。有請衛福部邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。外界也在高度質疑衛福部在你來之前其實官僚、非常官僚，土皇帝也一堆啦！你什麼時候可以清一遍？你自己親自清一遍，不要讓勞動部的事情發生在衛福部，因為你現在被點名了啊，疾管署裡面就有，可能還有其他單位，大家官僚、僚氣很重啊！衛福部現在老實講你當部長是人人好啦，除了邱泰源以外，衛福部是官僚十足的單位，我跟你說，你是人人好啦，好像麻糬一樣，你同意吧？"],["邱部長泰源：我一切都是以人民的健康為職志，一生的職志。"],["賴委員士葆：你在那邊這樣，麻糬就是任人家怎麼捏，你的部屬怎麼欺負都沒關係。"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，我跟委員報告一下，我到部裡面來，深深覺得我們部裡面的所有同仁真的是非常努力。"],["賴委員士葆：官僚很足、官僚味很足啊！多兇啊，食藥署之前的吳署長官威十足啊！他的事大家都知道啊，現在這個部長就軟軟的，隨便人家亂捏，所以你要去好好查一下你們裡面的土皇帝很多。"],["邱部長泰源：我一定不容許有這樣的職場霸行。"],["賴委員士葆：不容許喔？一個禮拜裡面就搞定喔，這是卓榮泰說的喔！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你剛才說到學歷認證，你這個學歷認證如何從嚴？你也說一下給大家聽，現在來講你是「抱著燒」，一個是波波醫、一個是本土醫，現在波波醫把國外的全部加進來，把美國、日本統統夯不啷噹加進來，現在總共排隊多少？有六百多人在排隊，對不對？一年50個名額，要排12年啊！"],["邱部長泰源：牙醫有620……"],["賴委員士葆：六百多嘛！一年50個，要排12年。"],["邱部長泰源：包括所有國外的。"],["賴委員士葆：對，包括所有國外的，這個東西就是……"],["邱部長泰源：我是說國外醫學院畢業的。"],["賴委員士葆：國外的，比如哈佛的你也……"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛召委也有提到，他們可能來自各方。"],["賴委員士葆：你把哈佛的、Johns 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supply，幾年後就會跟日本一樣，1比1,000人，一個牙醫服務1,000人，那麼牙醫就崩盤了，東京是1比861，福岡1比951，大阪1比1,111，聽好喔！牙醫師下班以後還要去開Uber，還要做外送員，主席也都知道啊！有些牙醫說自己是從日本回來的，「歹勢」！日本現在找不到醫生，他們覺得臺灣多好啊！有去考就會上，有去考就會上，這個部長你都知道吧？請問要怎麼解？本土醫跟國外醫怎麼取得平衡？你告訴我，要怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：是這樣子啦！當然臺灣也是國際化的一個國家，所以我跟委員報告，即使像哈佛那樣的大學，他們也都有國際學程，他們收的國際學生比率大概是8%到10%，如果一年有400位本土生牙醫，乘以8%，比率上是跟國際間接軌的……"],["賴委員士葆：你現在告訴我怎麼解？我的時間差不多到了喔！馬上人家要上街頭訴求，你要怎麼解，讓本土小牙醫能夠吞進去，讓國外的牙醫也能夠吞進去，你要怎麼處理？你告訴我要怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，我們還是重申我們維持每年50個……"],["賴委員士葆：50個，那要排十幾年欸！"],["邱部長泰源：這是國際性的，一、二十年來都沒有變，我們也不會去增加。第二個，在學歷認定上，就按照110年6月通過的修法去處理。"],["賴委員士葆：所以像有些名嘴講的，在波波隨便一個像學店那樣的都沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：蛤？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，都有完整的入學考試……"],["賴委員士葆：一定要念5年喔！實習呢？"],["邱部長泰源：不管你是哈佛畢業、劍橋畢業、雪梨大學畢業，不管是哪裡，都一樣要經過這樣的程序。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一個……"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，我還是講一下，偏鄉計畫的確需要補足，現在限定是55個沒有牙醫師的鄉鎮，我們給……"],["賴委員士葆：你那個偏鄉計畫就是為波波開門的啊！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，沒有，現在已經不去做實習這邊的，我們是用本國的，而且是有執照的。"],["賴委員士葆：好，請問，24億裡面是不是絕對沒有波波？是不是？講一下，確定一下。"],["邱部長泰源：目前沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：以後也沒有啦！不要目前。"],["邱部長泰源：不是沒有，是沒有為了波波實習的那一塊，當然，如果說他是國外學歷，我們是以本國優先，譬如他是雪梨大學畢業，就是國外醫學院畢業，而且有執照，這個目前也被排除掉，現在我們以國內畢業的優先……"],["賴委員士葆：不是優先，是一定，百分之百啦！可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果……"],["賴委員士葆：百分之百國內的，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：問題是現在這55個偏鄉真的就是需要牙醫師，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：所以還是有可能波波嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，現在不會用，波波那部分，大家擔心的是開放實習名額，而我們現在要做的，完全沒有這回事。"],["賴委員士葆：最後我再請問你，面對這個爭議，我提供一個建議給你，來一個總量管制，大家考試，可以嗎？總量管制，管你是國內、國外的，就考試，考試你們定，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們考試很嚴格……"],["賴委員士葆：可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：考試，對，都要考試……"],["賴委員士葆：就是總量管制，不管你國內、國外，總量管制，這樣的話，波波跟本土醫就可以取得平衡點，大家考試憑實力。"],["邱部長泰源：現在這樣就是總量管制。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！你現在哪有總量管制！"],["邱部長泰源：就是400個，然後8%國外的……"],["賴委員士葆：你現在沒有總量管制。"],["邱部長泰源：現在完全沒有額外的，這50個以外已經沒有其他機會。"],["賴委員士葆：總量管制落實，確實落實，不要專門為波波開後門，這樣才有解啦！"],["邱部長泰源：不會，絕對不會，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝賴委員。","接續我們請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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兩位早安 午安 我們來看下一頁我想要直接跟部長討論我當然知道在青少年作為詐騙集團的犯罪工具這件事情法務部跟上市廳其實都有非常多的作為可是我想要跟部長也跟上市廳法官分享另外一個觀點在今年9月公共電視的公視主題秀裡面這個人我們都叫他果果"},{"start":46.508,"end":67.037,"text":"果果是一個教育工作者也是一個社工他最近又創了一個很棒的社工支持計畫他在節目上談到一個很重要的觀點其實也是我們長時間在教育第一線現場我們所看到的困境他說所有幸福家庭的元素幫派裡面都有老大對你有期待兄弟對你有義氣如果你以為爸爸媽媽會給你經濟資產或者是獎勵那幫派裡面更多"},{"start":72.299,"end":87.137,"text":"我們很難期待這些有可能進入幫派的家庭真的能夠接觸每一個犯罪的青少年也就是說我相信法務部一定知道其實有很多走上犯罪之路的孩子他們的原生家庭出現了困難而且"},{"start":87.597,"end":106.698,"text":"原生家庭出現困難的孩子過往我們可能以為都是中下經濟階層的但近年來有非常多中產階級的孩子也走入這個困境我認為我們在做所有防範工作都必須要回到青少年角度來看這件事情來檢視我們的政策是不是可以真的幫助小孩讓孩子不要走上這一條路"},{"start":107.879,"end":136.46,"text":"除了這個果果社工師之外有另外一個觀點也想要跟部長分享來下一頁我們認識一個團體叫逆風劇團他們常年在陪伴很多邊緣的孩子用戲劇展演自己的故事說出自己心裡面的苦他可能是機構的孩子可能是街頭的孩子也可能是學校的孩子那常年以來他們告訴我們很多我們聽了都很心酸的故事例如說很多孩子告訴他們他們其實身不由己因為家裡要養"},{"start":137.481,"end":154.506,"text":"那個身不由己他們認為往往是因為來不及來不及什麼呢來不及好好生活來不及好好念書來不及讓自己改善所以走不出來幫派一離開只能去做初工、做工地就算現在去做別的工作也很難接受一個月只有三、四萬塊"},{"start":155.626,"end":184.645,"text":"孩子們問說我去做詐騙集團的工作不也是一種脫貧嗎為什麼這種脫貧是不可以的呢我們當然知道這樣的認知有問題這樣的認知也不符合社會主流的規範但我們要問的是孩子們的困境從剛剛那個社工師到這個逆風劇團因為時間有限我都不再舉例我想要講的是如果我們這些大人從所謂的教育機構或是從法務機構我們想要協助這些孩子一、不要走上"},{"start":185.766,"end":200.375,"text":"不好的路,或從不好的路走回來,我們到底做了哪些事情?」在法務部這裡我們看到你們在宣導面你們各地檢署都積極提供師資還有資源協力提升青少年的法律資能,我不會說這是錯的"},{"start":201.716,"end":220.463,"text":"可是我要問,難道孩子們不知道這些行為是犯法的嗎?我想在場都沒有人不會不知道,其實孩子們也都知道但如同我說的,為什麼他們會走入這個部分?會不會所有快速的賺錢方法都寫在六法全書裡面?甚至有孩子告訴我們,幫派裡面有法律顧問在協助他們理解自己的處境跟可能會遇到的狀況"},{"start":221.403,"end":247.377,"text":"在防治面我們知道你們跟各部會積極推動預防少年兒童犯罪方案那在院長上任之後還宣示114到117要投入87億我非常好奇目前你們的進度走到哪裡接下來查緝面行事跟行政結合希望共同研範青少年涉入詐欺犯罪可是我們到底有沒有用不同的角度來理解為什麼孩子會走到這裡還有你們查緝完之後就把孩子丟進矯正學校"},{"start":248.598,"end":266.059,"text":"孩子們在矯正學校三個月到三年不等的時間出來之後整個社會你們跟教育部有相關的機制接觸這些小孩嗎?事實上是沒有的甚至我們聽到矯正老師告訴我們在割喉案之後孩子們會被快速地審理完相關的案件丟進矯正學校所以矯正學校也快要崩潰了"},{"start":266.94,"end":286.21,"text":"而這都是法務部必須要去面對當你們今天提出這些業務報告的時候你們其實沒有真的可以實質面對這些問題不管是教校內的孩子或是教校外還在社會上遊蕩的孩子我當然知道教育的業務有國教署跟教育部但是我也想要拜託法務部我們可以怎麼樣積極的協助這些孩子"},{"start":287.785,"end":305.703,"text":"所以最後我想要說我們看到今天的業務報告面對青少年的問題司法院沒有任何的想像你們就只有給我們看到這兩頁我們非常好奇在未來我們打算用114到117那個龐大的經費來做怎麼樣協助孩子的工作這個部分可不可以請部長快速回應一下"},{"start":308.868,"end":330.697,"text":"這個少年事件的處理這個在檢察院是沒有角色的這全部都是少年法庭少年因為他有先例權他有少年事件處理法那我們真的有除了起訴有些起訴的那個案件才會到檢察官這樣來所以我們全部都給少年法庭來處理那另外剛才那個我有提到那個矯正署這部分其實只有四間矯正學校"},{"start":331.897,"end":354.25,"text":"我當然知道可是我要講的是你們在防詐工作裡面你們也做了很多事情對於孩子們可是我剛剛提醒法務部我想這個防詐這部分因為這個少年有時候在學校在社會上這個我想這個不是法務部能夠主管的那當然我們也會跟各部會來到學校或到社區去我們去做一個宣導那我想"},{"start":355.291,"end":378.586,"text":"少年最主要的不是他不知道法律會處罰但是他沒有正常的法治觀念那我想這個是要做一個宣導就跟他做一個矯正回來你可以做很多這不是去加入詐團或加入犯罪群是你唯一的選擇你的選擇是很多的那我想這個我們可以努力再去做然後針對這些委員會關心的少年這部分把他拉回來我們不但不漏氣我們把他拉回來"},{"start":379.926,"end":402.658,"text":"我認為孩子們真的不是不知道其實孩子們都知道可是我要講的是剛剛部長你說了有些業務其實不歸你們主管可是我光是以矯正學校為例其實你們在跟教育部的銜接都出現了很多問題可是因為我的時間有限我想要尊重主席跟後續的委員是不是我們辦公室後續可以積極跟法務部還有相關單位討論我們如何協助這些孩子不管是已經進入體制內或是還在體制外在犯罪的路上的孩子"},{"start":403.118,"end":412.151,"text":"我們那個救血救衛這部我們在那個輔導還有114到117年那個計畫我們也想要看到你們目前規劃進度我們再來努力好我們再來一起討論我們辦公室再找你們開會謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1207,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時59分）謝謝主席，有請法務部部長，還有司法院少事廳法官，謝謝。","兩位午安，我們來看下一頁。我想要直接跟部長討論，我當然知道在青少年作為詐騙集團的犯罪工具這件事情，法務部跟少事廳其實都有非常多的作為，可是我想要跟部長也跟少事廳法官分享另外一個觀點。在今年9月公共電視的公視主題秀裡面，這個人我們都叫他「國國」，國國是一個教育工作者，也是一個社工，他最近又創了一個很棒的社工支持計畫。他在節目上談到一個很重要的觀點，其實也是我們長時間在教育第一線現場所看到的困境。他說所有幸福家庭的元素，幫派裡面都有，老大對你有期待，兄弟對你有義氣，如果你以為爸爸媽媽會給你經濟資產或者是獎勵，那幫派裡面更多，我們很難期待這些有可能進入幫派的家庭真的能夠接住每一個犯罪的青少年。也就是說，我相信法務部一定知道，其實有很多走上犯罪之路的孩子，他們的原生家庭出現了困難，而且原生家庭出現困難的孩子，過往我們可能以為都是中下經濟階層的，但近年來有非常多中產階級的孩子也走入這個困境，我認為我們在做所有防範工作都必須要回到青少年角度來看這件事情，來檢視我們的政策，是不是可以真的幫助小孩讓孩子不要走上這條路。","除了上述這個「國國」社工師之外，有另外一個觀點也想要跟部長分享。我們看下一頁。我們認識一個團體叫「逆風劇團」，他們長年在陪伴很多邊緣的孩子，用戲劇展演自己的故事，說出自己心裡面的苦，他可能是機構的孩子，可能是街頭的孩子，也可能是學校的孩子。長年以來他們告訴我們很多，我們聽了都很心酸的故事，例如很多孩子告訴他們，他們其實身不由己，因為說有家裡要養。那個「身不由己」，他們認為往往是因為來不及，來不及什麼呢？來不及好好生活，來不及好好念書，來不及讓自己改善，所以走不出來幫派，一離開只能去做粗工，做工地，就算現在去做別的工作，也很難接受一個月只有三、四萬塊。孩子們問說：我去做詐騙集團的工作不也是一種脫貧嗎？為什麼這種脫貧是不可以的呢？我們當然知道這樣的認知有問題，這樣的認知也不符合社會主流的規範，但我們要問的是孩子們的困境，從剛剛那個社工師到這個逆風劇團，因為時間有限，我就不再舉例。","我想要講的是，如果我們這些大人從所謂的教育機構或是從法務機構，我們想要協助這些孩子第一不要走上不好的路，第二或者要從不好的路要走回來。我們到底做了哪些事情？我們看法務部的宣導面，你們各地檢署都積極提供師資還有資源，協力提升青少年的法律知能，我不會說這是錯的。可是我要問，難道孩子們不知道這些行為是犯法的嗎？我想在場都沒有人不會不知道，其實孩子們也都知道，但如同我說的，為什麼他們會走入這個部分？會不會所有快速的賺錢方法都寫在六法全書裡面？甚至有孩子告訴我們幫派裡面有法律顧問在協助他們理解自己的處境跟可能會遇到的狀況。","在防治面，我們知道你們跟各部會積極推動預防少年兒童犯罪方案，在院長上任之後還宣示114年到117年要投入87億，我非常好奇目前你們的進度走到哪裡。接下來談及查緝面，刑事跟行政結合，希望共同防範青少年涉入詐欺犯罪，可是我們到底有沒有用不同的角度來理解為什麼孩子會走到這裡？還有你們查緝完之後，就把孩子丟進矯正學校，孩子們在矯正學校三個月到三年不等的時間，他們出來之後，整個社會你們跟教育部有相關的機制接住這些小孩嗎？事實上是沒有的，甚至我們聽到矯正老師告訴我們，在割喉案之後，孩子們會被快速的審理完相關的案件，丟進矯正學校，所以矯正學校也快要崩潰了，而這都是法務部必須要去面對。當你們今天提出這些業務報告的時候，你們其實沒有真的可以實質面對這些問題，不管是矯校內的孩子或是矯校外，或是還在社會上遊蕩的孩子。我當然知道教育的業務有國教署跟教育部，但是我也想要拜託法務部，我們可以怎麼樣積極的協助這些孩子？","最後我想要說，我們看到今天的業務報告面對青少年的問題，司法院沒有任何的想像，你們就只有給我們看到這兩頁，我們非常好奇在未來我們打算用114年到117年那個龐大的經費來做怎麼樣協助孩子的工作，這個部分可不可以請部長快速回應一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關少年事件的處理，這在檢察署是沒有角色的，這全部都是少年法庭，因為他有先議權，有少年事件處理法，我們真的除了起訴，有些起訴的案件才會到檢察官這裡來，所以我們全部都給少年法庭來處理。","另外剛才委員有提到矯正署這部分，只有四間矯正學校。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道，我當然知道，可是我要講的是你們在防詐工作裡面，你們對於孩子們做了很多事情，可是我剛剛提醒法務部……"],["鄭部長銘謙：防詐這部分，因為少年有時候在學校或是在社會上，我想這個不是法務部能夠主管的，當然我們也會跟各部會到學校或到社區去做宣導，我想少年不是他不知道法律會處罰，但是他沒有正常的法治觀念，我想這個是要做宣導，就跟他矯正回來，你可以做很多，這不是去加入詐團或加入犯罪，不是你唯一的選擇，你的選擇是很多的。這個我們可以努力再去做，針對這些委員關心的少年，我們把他拉回來，我們不但不漏接，我們把他拉回來。"],["陳委員培瑜：我認為孩子們真的不是不知道，其實孩子們都知道，可是我要講的是，剛剛部長你說了有些業務其實不歸你們主管，可是我光是以矯正學校為例，其實你們在跟教育部的銜接都出現了很多問題，因為我的時間有限，我想要尊重主席跟後續的委員，是不是我們辦公室後續可以積極的跟法務部還有相關單位討論，我們如何協助這些孩子，不管是已經進入體制內或是還在體制外這些在犯罪路上的孩子，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：實際上，我們對就學就業這部分的輔導，還有家庭的部分……"],["陳委員培瑜：還有114到117年那個計畫，我們也想要看到你們目前規劃的進度。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們再來一起討論，我們辦公室會再找你們開會，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，我很喜歡你那一句，就是賺錢的方式都寫在六法全書裡面，所以維護社會治安非常重要。謝謝。","下一位請林淑芬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157332","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157332","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637529055b38e1003c5fdc3740404d340f2ad74ba16637283b6ccba60f46e32a191315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:52:29 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to the safety of equipment and to meet the needs of the professional caretakers at the scene."},{"start":79.665,"end":86.171,"text":"At the same time, we also call on the actors and theaters to say no to high-risk, unprepared workplaces."},{"start":86.511,"end":95.579,"text":"我想他後面這個要呼籲大家勇敢說不我覺得真的讓人覺得很心疼因為從最近的職安事件我們真的覺得當一個不對等的權力更何況最近這個引後你也會看到他這個豁出去了交出自己power的精神所以很多的時候演員跟職員其實並沒有選擇"},{"start":110.891,"end":112.633,"text":"所以我覺得這個時候我們文化部的任務就更重大了。那部長可以同意我現在說的嗎?同意啊。同意齁。那所以今天就想追蹤就是我從2022年就開始希望文化部逐步努力的"},{"start":126.93,"end":149.747,"text":"當然我要先肯定文化部當時就是這個事件之後我希望文化部盡速提調查報告具體保障工作安全文化部也在同年11月就針對我要求的之一就是公布了關於職安議題的文化藝術工作者的契約範本我想這是往前走了一步"},{"start":150.968,"end":178.611,"text":"關於契約的部分當時候我也要求文化部要建立影視職安的第三方監督機制還有要建立安全人才資料庫因為如果沒有這方面因為影視業是一個非常特殊的拍片現場然後他們拍片現場的變動很快不管你們所講的就是爆破等等吊掛、火效"},{"start":178.951,"end":179.671,"text":" bicyclist 佳嵐 佳嵐"},{"start":196.8,"end":226.8,"text":""},{"start":226.8,"end":245.52,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":245.62,"end":248.683,"text":"adequate to the current state of the government."},{"start":260.575,"end":288.263,"text":"今天其實就是想繼續追蹤這件事情就是關於職業安全這個部分我們的影視局文化部是不是可以做得更多因為總不能夠我們永遠都在推廣吧那這個人才資料庫長不出來人才根本就沒有就不會有資料庫對不對那第三方監督機制又覺得機身彈、彈身機長不出來現在一下要求又太快了所以我今天的第一個部分就是說可不可以給我一個時間表"},{"start":289.923,"end":317.551,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":317.631,"end":317.771,"text":"議員給我們一個月報告"},{"start":336.144,"end":336.804,"text":"謝謝部長,我相信部長很有心,坐在那裡聽應該會跟我們看到的是一樣痛心。"},{"start":356.275,"end":362.761,"text":"閱讀了之後覺得雖然我們是在初步研究階段所以也想跟部長討論那就是文化部狹下其實有非常多的台灣重要的文史資料"},{"start":377.034,"end":385.757,"text":"但是因為格式不同主管的單位不一樣所以彼此之間好像並沒有辦法整合也沒有辦法讓大眾覺得它更好用那就非常的可惜因為在一個我們要繼續更往前數位化的時代那如果我們相關的資料庫沒有辦法有更整合的平台使用起來更困難的話那我們前面花了這麼多的功夫包含你們所有的國家文化"},{"start":408.085,"end":423.946,"text":"繼議庫2.0國家文化資料庫國家文化資產網文化部典藏網更不用提文化部轄下的新聞資料單位有非常多寶貴的歷史資料因為當時就是老三台可以說是一個影像新聞壟斷的時代那等等那我想"},{"start":424.226,"end":445.273,"text":"他們各自有各自的一些辦法各自的規格可是這個部分文化部是不是也可以花一點心力在我們繼續數位化的時代就是把這些資料庫找一些相關的數位那對這些資料熟悉的人才來討論一下是不是可以往整合的方向走"},{"start":446.673,"end":460.852,"text":"我想這個部分基本上不是容易做到因為我們辦公室研究一段時間我覺得真的需要更專業的人雖然我覺得這個方向我是很認同的就是已經有了國家文化記憶庫2.0國家文化資料庫文化部典藏國家文化資產網"},{"start":464.256,"end":475.019,"text":"adequate to the project, the Ministry of Culture, Culture, and Human Resources has put in a lot of effort."},{"start":495.912,"end":497.333,"text":" bicyn 今天就是這兩個部分。"},{"start":513.723,"end":525.719,"text":"mentioneding the following question, I hope to pass on the memory of local history and history data to the Department of Culture as the leading department in this field, which can be regarded as an important job.另一個就是我前面所講的,那我過去兩年前開始關心的"},{"start":529.104,"end":553.865,"text":"議員長"},{"start":554.866,"end":558.291,"text":"謝謝部長,這兩個都是一個月會給我報告是不是?好,沒問題,一個月。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":741,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時52分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：范委員你好。"],["范委員雲：部長早安，辛苦了。我想部長這幾天應該有看到職場霸凌讓人非常遺憾的新聞；本席今天也想針對職場安全、身心健康有關的職安問題，繼續追蹤文化部的作為。部長知道我們今年金鐘獎的特別貢獻獎是頒給誰嗎？"],["李部長遠：我知道，就是一個在職安中受害的人。"],["范委員雲：對，是38歲的黃柏雄因為職安受害的攝影師，他在苗栗南庄神仙谷墜谷，金鐘獎感謝他在攝影方面的貢獻。我想那天部長在現場，應該有聽到其遺孀楊斯羽的訴求，就是請長官們能撥一點預算，讓設備安全以及符合現場需求的專業戒護人員，她同時也呼籲演員跟劇場，對於高風險沒有準備好的工作場所要勇敢的說不。我想她後面呼籲大家要勇敢說不，真的讓人很心疼，因為從最近的職安事件，我們覺得當一個不對等的權力，更何況最近這個影后，你也看到他豁出去，交出自己power的精神。所以很多時候，演員跟職員其實並沒有選擇，所以這個時候文化部的任務就更重大了。部長同意我現在說的嗎？"],["李部長遠：同意。"],["范委員雲：所以本席今天想繼續追蹤，從2022年開始希望文化部逐步努力的這個部分；當然，我要先肯定文化部在這個事件之後，我希望文化部儘速提調查報告，具體保障工作安全。文化部在同年11月針對我的要求之一，公布了與職安議題有關的文化藝術工作者契約範本，等於是往前走了一步，這是關於契約的部分。當時我還要求文化部要建立影視職安的第三方監督機制，要建立安全人才資料庫，因為影視業是一個非常特殊的拍片現場，拍片現場的變動很快，不管你們所講的爆破、吊掛、火效、車輛特技等等，都是非常特殊的專業安全人才。今年3月跟6月也曾跟你們索資，希望部長能夠加快這個進度，因為已經隔了兩年，當時大家都說需要時間來做，可是我發現3月跟6月這兩次索資的內容都大同小異，提到的都是現在還在做安全的推廣。我當然知道安全推廣很重要，希望從業人員可以內化這個價值，可是就像我剛剛說的，它有一些制度跟環境，如果沒有這個需求，人才也生不出來。","你們今年6月給我的報告說，目前我國影視產業尚無具有安全專業通才能力之人才，其實這就是個危機！如果文化部沒有再多做一些，或拿出資源來做的話，這個專業人才就長不出來，就各憑劇組他們的組合，像你們報告裡面講的，有些組合人比較少，仰賴他們每個人內化的價值。你們也跟工會合作，做了很多事，包含座談會，跟工會、工作坊合作。我今天想繼續追蹤這件事情，也就是在職業安全這部分，影視局、文化部是不是可以做更多？總不能永遠都在推廣！人才資料庫長不出來，人才根本就沒有，也就不會有資料庫，對不對？推動第三方監督機制，又覺得雞生蛋、蛋生雞，長不出來，現在一下要求又太快。所以我今天的第一個問題是：可不可以給我一個時間表，請文化部評估要如何逐步把這件事情做出來？不能只報告說逐步推動由民間自主，建立安全人才資料庫。我想黃柏雄遺孀在今年領獎的時候，呼籲演員要勇敢說不，呼籲資方多拿出一點錢；作為立法委員，作為部長在臺下聽了，應該會覺得很難過。所以我們是不是可以就資源上、制度上，再加一把力，不要再讓遺孀站出來呼籲。部長是不是能夠往這方面再努力？"],["李部長遠：請委員給我們一個月，我們給你一個報告，其實我們有往下做……"],["范委員雲：對，但是沒有時間表，就是……"],["李部長遠：是不是請局長解釋一下？"],["范委員雲：沒關係，因為我還有一題要問部長，所以是不是內給我一個時間表，一個月內給我一個報告，我們再從那邊來往前走。"],["李部長遠：好的。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，相信部長很有心，願意坐在那裡聽，應該會跟我們看到一樣痛心。","另外有學界的朋友，針對臺灣的文史資料向本席陳情。我們研究之後覺得，雖然我們是在初步研究階段，但也想跟部長討論。也就是文化部轄下其實有非常多臺灣重要的文史資料，因為格式不同，主管單位不一樣，彼此間好像沒辦法整合，沒辦法讓大眾覺得它更好用，真的非常可惜。在一個需要繼續更往前數位化的時代，相關的資料庫如果沒有可以整合的平臺，使用時還更困難的話，那麼我們前面花了這麼多的功夫，包含你們所有的國家文化記憶庫2.0、國家文化資料庫、國家文化資產網、文化部典藏網，更不用提文化部轄下的新聞資料單位，都有非常多寶貴的歷史資料，因為當時就是老三臺，可以說是影像新聞壟斷的時代等等，他們有各自的一些辦法，各自的規格。針對這部分，文化部是不是可以花一點心力，在這個數位化的時代，讓對這些資料熟悉的人才討論一下，是不是可以往整合的方向走？基本上，我是很認同這個方向，但是這個部分並不容易做到，因為我們辦公室研究了一段時間，我覺得真的是需要更專業的人。現在已經有了國家文化記憶庫2.0、國家文化資料庫、文化部典藏網及國家文化資產網，此外，提出陳情的學者、文化人士也表示地方其實做了不少努力，我相信這也是文化部所關心的，是否也能夠讓他們連結進來、能夠更好用？這不是一件容易的工作，部長，是否可以尋找專業人才開始討論進行這樣的整合，藉由過去的努力，未來可以讓臺灣的文史資料被更多人使用？"],["李部長遠：最近我做的工作就是盤點過去累積蠻多的成績，譬如剛剛講的歷史資料非常珍貴，我們會做進一步的整理。"],["范委員雲：今天其實就是這兩個部分，後面這題是希望能將本土文史資料的記憶傳承，文化部作為這個領域的帶頭部會，可以將它當成一個重要的工作。另外一個是我在前面所講的，從二年前我就開始關心的影視界人材職安問題，在發生了這麼多不幸之後，文化部也應該要亡羊補牢，單靠影視團隊很難做到的部分，必須要有文化部一起努力，拿出更多的資源，給予更多的協助。也希望給我一個第三方影視職安人才資料庫及第三方機制的推動時間表，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長。這兩個都會在1個月內給我初步報告，是不是？"],["李部長遠：沒問題。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，一起加油！"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，部長先請回。","剛才本席原本是宣告在范雲委員發言結束後要處理臨提，但是因為張雅琳委員與范雲委員交換了質詢時間，所以你是要先質詢或先處理臨提？"],["張委員雅琳：處理臨時提案。"],["主席：先處理臨提，OK嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：可以。"],["主席：我們現在開始處理臨時提案。","今天有委員提出臨時提案，共計5案，請宣讀。","一、","案由：鑑於TaiwanPlus「發展國際數位傳播計畫（110-113年）」執行率僅68.6%，明年度起續編「發展國際數位傳播計畫（114-117年）」總經費共40億元，回顧TaiwanPlus三年來APP下載次數只16萬次，亞洲觀看雖占比4成，但美歐地區觀看佔比偏低。TaiwanPlus濫編約58億餘元，國際擴散成效不佳，淪為大內宣，續編預算恐浪費公帑之嫌。爰此要求文化部於一個月內提出TaiwanPlus檢討計畫報告。","提案人：洪孟楷","連署人：萬美玲　　林倩綺","二、","文化部預計打造全民共創、共享，可發展成創新、韌性、智慧，具經濟、觀光潛力的100個文化基地，將為地方街區注入文化經濟發展量能。請文化部評估文化基地時，應充分考量地方街區人文歷史積累，並積極串連週邊民間藝文據點、文創產業。","台北市作為台灣首都，且具有全台最多的文化資產、藝文場館、藝文團體及從業人員，文化部應協助台北成為台灣的國際文化首都，並積極與民間協力合作。","人文歷史是台北的文化觀光特色，請文化部與地方政府合作，輔導納入以下三處文化基地：","一、台北市西門町電影文化基地","二、台北市城中區博物館文化基地，結合博物館、藝文場館、菊元百貨等文資，打造藝文廊道。","三、台北市城西文化基地，艋舺為北市最早的水岸貿易、城市發展、演藝娛樂、廟宇文化祭典聚落，且為北市國際觀光客造訪十大景點，城西文化基地極具文化、經濟、觀光潛力。","提案人：吳沛憶　　陳培瑜　　陳秀寳","三、","於2009年入選世界遺產潛力點的樂生療養院，卻屢屢於保存、再利用，以及院民保障等事項發生爭議，極度不利進一步爭取世界遺產登錄。","2024年10月4日，行政院卓院長榮泰於院會表態，樂見樂生療養院的完整保存，為人類留下對過去醫療行為的記憶，行政院將全力支持文化部相關工作的推行。文化部李遠部長亦指出，臺灣雖不屬聯合國會員，但仍將持續爭取國際支持我國世界遺產登錄。","2024年臺灣文化遺產國際論壇上，王淳熙所長指出：「人在文化景觀中的角色，往往比建築文化遺產更加的重要。人促成了文化景觀的創造和形成，也維繫著過去的記憶和智慧，更經常是仍能持續運作的關鍵。」","我國既有登錄及保存世界遺產之規劃，便應正視集醫療、文資、人權三大價值於一身的樂生療養院之特殊性，且認知到，樂生是一座住有院民及其家屬的社群，正是此一社群的存在見證了漢生病隔離史。","為登錄世界遺產計，文化部應秉持專業與《文化資產保存法》規範，於三個月內提出樂生入口景觀復原規劃，並偕同樂生院民、國際愛地芽協會臺灣分會、青年樂生聯盟、臺灣蠻野心足生態協會，以及衛福部、交通部、新北市政府、臺北市政府捷運局等相關團體，展開多方對談，共同落實樂生院民所盼「緩坡大平台案」。","文化部應於三個月內針對上述課題提出具體規劃、落實期程，並向立法院教育及文化委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：林宜瑾","連署人：陳培瑜　　陳秀寳","四、","近年台灣之繪本創作者屢屢獲多項國際大獎，如：波隆那繪本插畫大獎、波隆那拉加茲獎、瑞典林格倫獎等，多倫多國際作家節也有多位我國繪本插畫家受邀出席暢談，有繪本插畫家之作品登上國內電商平台年度華文暢銷排行榜冠軍之成績；此外，根據國家圖書館調查之《111年臺灣圖書出版現況及趨勢報告》，我國每年出版兒童讀物之數量節節攀升，可見兒童消費市場之強大。","繪本亦為推廣親子共讀最好的媒材，在3C產品普及的現在，透過我國優質繪本創作更有助於增進親子感情、啟發孩子閱讀興趣、培養本土關懷。不論從創作者面、讀者面、消費市場面皆顯示我國繪本插畫童書創作越發蓬勃，文化部應為我國親子及繪本插畫童書創作者設立鼓勵機制。","爰此，請文化部於二個月內研議成立國家繪本館、繪本博覽會或繪本基地之可行性，以及設立繪本專業獎項鼓勵我國創作者之獎鼓勵機制，以表彰我國對繪本插畫童書之重視。","提案人：陳培瑜","連署人：范　雲　　郭昱晴","五、","案由：根據勞動部資料顯示，目前我國約有21萬文化產業工作者，其中，受僱勞工約13萬人，占比約63.76%，無一定雇主約8千人（3.84%），另有將近8萬人為自營作業者，占比為32.41%。依據現行勞動部《勞工健康保護規則》雇主對在職勞工，定期實施一般健康檢查，而非受僱勞工則無法適用相關規定。近來發生年輕藝文工作者因過度勞累而猝逝的不幸事件，為保障非受僱勞工型態藝文工作者之健康權，爰要求文化部針對文化產業之無一定雇主及自營作業者，參考勞動部影視業職業災害預防指引，會商衛福部與勞動部，共同研議文化產業自營工作者之「安全衛生防護與健康檢查」補助方案，以強化其從業之保障，並將研議結果於二個月內以書面方式回覆立法院教育及文化委員會。","提案人：葛如鈞　　柯志恩　　洪孟楷　　萬美玲"],["主席：我們現在就一案一案來處理。","第1案，文化部有沒有意見？"],["李部長遠：有。在第四行，三年來app下載次數應該是17萬次。"],["主席：好，改成17萬。"],["李部長遠：倒數第三行的「TaiwanPlus濫編約58億餘元」，這個最正確的數字是34.71億。"],["主席：就是用實際的數字，對不對？多少？"],["李部長遠：34.71億。"],["主席：我們只要把下載次數改成17萬次、預算數改成34.71億？"],["李部長遠：是，「濫編」2個字能否刪除？"],["主席：我們改成「編列」，你可以接受嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["主席：我們就改成「編列」，這樣好不好？"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：主席……"],["主席：等一下，我先問部長，還有沒有其他意見？"],["李部長遠：到目前為止就是這樣。"],["主席：好。","請吳沛憶委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個提案案由的文字有「大內宣」，我是覺得「大內宣」這個文字並不精確，因為不太清楚實際指的是什麼，建議「大內宣」這個文字是不是可以不要用？"],["主席：但是文化部沒有什麼意見耶！如果提案人提了，文化部也沒什麼特別的意見……"],["吳委員沛憶：如果文字不精確的話，你們要怎麼執行？什麼是大內宣呢？"],["李部長遠：對不起！剛才我沒有看到，「淪為大內宣」的確不太對，因為我們是一個對外的英文頻道，它是用英文報導臺灣的一些紀錄內容，同時將國際的新聞向國內報導，況且現在所謂的大內宣一直都是指假議題，我們並沒有做大內宣，在此也謝謝委員的提醒，可以嗎？我一直覺得「大內宣」這個東西從過去到現在一直都是錯誤的議題，包括我們拍的影片或我們做的……"],["主席：部長，應該是這樣講，「大內宣」這個用詞不只是在文化部這個臨時提案的討論出現。我認為無論是在過去的媒體上或是在其他各部會，其實我們常常看到這個用詞，應該也沒有特別不妥的地方，事實上，我們也有對內宣傳過我們的成績，所以部長是不是再斟酌看看？有沒有這個難過？這個詞並不是在文化部才有的。"],["李部長遠：如果這個字眼只是政府的宣傳，我倒覺得沒有什麼關係，但是「大內宣」3個字常常被講成是政府花錢利用媒體傳播什麼東西，我覺得它有一點點負面的意思、它蠻負面的。"],["主席：現在提案人洪孟楷不在，因為我有幫忙連署，既然部長在感受上覺得比較負面，我們就把「淪為大內宣」5個字拿掉，好不好？"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：修正為「國際擴散成效不佳，續編預算……」，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是，謝謝你、謝謝。"],["主席：還有沒有其他問題？如果沒有的話，第1案就照修改後的文字通過。","第2案。"],["李部長遠：第2案就遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，OK。","第3案。"],["李部長遠：第3案也是文字上的調整。"],["主席：好。"],["李部長遠：第五段第二行改成「於三個月內協調主政機關衛生福利部研議樂生入口景觀復原規劃之可行性」，因為這個部分的確是一個蠻複雜的東西，再來是「並協調衛生福利部偕同樂生院民……」，以下就沒有要改的。","最後一段的「提出具體規劃、落實期程」能否改成「協調衛生福利部研議可行性」？因為這個議題實在是太多年了，它的確是……"],["主席：部長，應該是這樣，現在提案人、連署人不在……沒關係！我來唸一下，文化部現在的說法，第五段第一行，「為登錄世界遺產計……於三個月內」，因為主政機關是衛福部，所以是「協調主政機關衛生福利部研議」，把「提出」2個字拿掉，然後是「樂生入口景觀復原規劃之可行性，並協調衛生福利部偕同」，以下就都沒問題。","部長，但是我看到你們上來好像有反映第四行的一個地方，「衛福部」應該也要拿掉，對不對？因為主政機關已經是衛生福利部了，所以後面「以及衛福部」的「衛福部」就要拿掉，這樣才能符合前文，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["主席：最後一段就是「文化部應於三個月內針對上述課題協調衛生福利部研議可行性」，也就是將「提出具體規劃、落實期程」拿掉，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是這樣子。"],["主席：這樣有沒有問題？"],["陳委員培瑜：提案人林宜瑾委員請我說明，如果改成這樣OK的話，林宜瑾委員也沒問題，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：第3案就照修正後的文字通過。","第4案。"],["李部長遠：第4案有一、二個部分的文字修正。最後一段的「請文化部於二個月內」的「二個月」改成「三個月」，因為研議成立國家繪本館茲事體大，所以請給我們三個月的時間。"],["主席：下面還有要修改的嗎？"],["李部長遠：最後一段的倒數第三行，「以及設立繪本專業獎項」改成「以及研議鼓勵我國創作」。"],["主席：就是「請文化部於二個月內」的「二個月」改成「三個月」；再來是「設立繪本專業獎項」改成「研議」，提案人陳培瑜委員也在現場？"],["陳委員培瑜：沒有問題，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝你。"],["主席：第4案就照修正後的文字通過。","第5案。"],["李部長遠：我們對第5案沒有意見，遵照辦理。"],["主席：第5案就照案通過。","接下來就繼續進行質詢。","請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752583054332b20aa097f9c834d54a4e02c74ba16637283b6ccda6c27b9980abdb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:58:19 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down。"],["葉委員元之：不是，有共識其實都可以修法。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那從企業的角度要比較務實……"],["葉委員元之：有態度都可以修法，那是另外一個問題啦。那你有提到沒有核電也沒關係，因為我們的氫能現在已經要發展了，可是我之前有質詢過環境部長，他說氫能之後其實都是一點點而已。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：根據國際的報告，氫能是2035年才會開始起來。"],["葉委員元之：那還非常久，但我們現在講的是未來幾年，講到2035年就太久了。所以實際上，主委，您的說法其實不能夠讓國人放心，用電無虞。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是有誤解。"],["葉委員元之：可是媒體都這樣報導啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是……"],["葉委員元之：所以你能夠保證不用核電的狀況下用電都沒問題？就你的了解。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分我跟台電問過了……"],["葉委員元之：台電說可以？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是台電的保證，因為我沒辦法幫台電保證……"],["葉委員元之：台電說可以？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我只能轉達台電跟我的保證。"],["葉委員元之：因為你是台積電大股東啦，你也要站在台積電跟國家發展的角度，用電的部分要說真話啦，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷不在。","麥玉珍、麥玉珍、麥玉珍不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在。","陳培瑜、陳培瑜、陳培瑜不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員蔡易餘所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會；各位同仁針對預算案如有修正動議或相關提案，請於11月27日（星期三）下午5點之前送經濟委員會辦公室，以利後續彙整，逾時不再收案；預算提案彙整之後，請國發會相關的同仁能夠儘速去跟各位委員做一些說明跟溝通。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-16","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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讚不讚成"},{"start":161.819,"end":186.416,"text":"這個我們保留國外協議裁判當然我一再重複我們絕對採用最高的要求絕對採用最高的標準來做國外協議的裁判現在問題來了因為這件事情考選部非常的困擾為什麼考選部非常的困擾2017年1月1號我們開始加嚴管制"},{"start":190.215,"end":218.003,"text":"結果到2022年6月22號上一屆國會依司法公布了三項附帶決議要放寬引發軒然大波所以在2022年6月22號三讀通過那三個附帶決議的時候在考試院發生什麼事情在考試院發生的事情是衛福部派去的代表我不確定他是不是受到那個附帶決議的影響"},{"start":219.554,"end":248.451,"text":"他跑去考選部開會的時候他開會因為考選部基本上他們的立場是他尊重主管機關衛福部的政策立場考選部把整個嚴格都寫得很清楚了結果你們2022年6月30號第43次的審議會議以後你們同意不再適用國外大學或學院醫學系科學歷才的原則"},{"start":250.475,"end":277.88,"text":"從這個時候開始放寬了部長這個基本的事實你有沒有掌握首先跟委員報告我們不會根據互待決議是啦是啦我吃到嘛所以我在一樣一樣放給你看嘛按照醫師法修法的以後的一個應該進行的據我了解是我的掌握是這樣子"},{"start":278.28,"end":301.818,"text":"要回到2017年那時候的標準嘛就是你剛所講最嚴格的標準嘛但我今天為什麼要藉由這個機會去質詢我怕部長人事情忙啊沒有辦法掌握這些基本的事實啊所以我特別上來跟院長報告啊2022年6月30號的時候你們派去考選部的代表說什麼啊"},{"start":302.939,"end":327.402,"text":"說沒有再要用那個財政原則阿要放寬阿結果來來來部長你看一下2022年11月23號行政院韓立法院復旦決議我們不執行喔這個是行政院直接回韓立法院因為那時候引發軒然大波大家都來抗議了嘛抗議完了以後阿接下來就看不懂了"},{"start":328.464,"end":342.433,"text":"行政院跟立法院講這個附帶決議我們不會執行啊意思就是什麼學歷的採任不會放寬嘛但問題是你們到44次會議的時候啊你們衛福部為什麼沒有派人去考選部開會喔跟有關於醫師考試採任原則這麼重要的事情衛福部竟然一個人都沒有去"},{"start":357.335,"end":358.298,"text":"部長這件事你知道嗎"},{"start":364.014,"end":390.651,"text":"這是2022的時候因為我不在部裡面沒關係部長你回去查一下一個禮拜之內書面回覆為什麼那時候沒有派人去沒有派人去的結果是什麼我跟院長報跟部長報告沒有派人去的結果就是啊之前放寬了44次喔雖然附帶決議不執行喔繼續放寬到第45次有派人去了有派人去一句話都沒講"},{"start":391.943,"end":409.609,"text":"一句話都沒有講沒有跟考試院考選部講說那個附帶決議沒有人要執行欸結果又按照43次的繼續放寬從43、44、45附帶決議都已經不執行了結果衛福部去考選部完全沒有表達這樣的意見導致繼續的放寬違反部長剛剛所講一定用最嚴格的標準"},{"start":423.221,"end":442.336,"text":"這個是在玩兩面手法嗎明著講一套背後在放水嗎部長可不可以回去了解一下為什麼會發生這種狀況接下來呢接下來要不要回復到2017年那個時候的嚴格採任標準這個是現在大家關心的事情"},{"start":443.311,"end":455.17,"text":"這部分的意思是可以說明一下我們把那個原則已經修到議事法施行細則最近會公布所以就會用議事法施行細則是現在你們公告的議事法施行細則一之一嗎"},{"start":455.987,"end":473.846,"text":"不是那個是公告的草案那個草案的部分我們要在那等於是預告程序所以我們要公告的部分的話會採認那個已經把那個原則的部分修到我們預計修的疑似法實行細則第13年就維持2017年一模一樣的標準嘛"},{"start":474.286,"end":488.957,"text":"文字有一些些的微調因為那個原則裡面有一些些文字不經不顧那個文字啊會後可不可以給我因為有的時候魔鬼就藏在細節裡啊你微調以後的文字是不是有維持之前的標準這個是大家現在在關心的嘛"},{"start":490.386,"end":506.402,"text":"那一個在程序中所以我們會覺得是說我們如果要公告之前我們其實是公告的那個同時可以送到委辦因為這是程序問題對 這個你們的行政程序我尊重我最後只講一句話"},{"start":507.683,"end":520.5,"text":"拜託這次不要再引發軒然大波了吵了好幾年了從2017年2022那時候在立法院偷渡那個附帶決議引發軒然大波搞到行政院發函說附帶決議不執行這很嚴重的事情"},{"start":524.705,"end":548.22,"text":"那已經產生了這麼大的爭議希望這一次要慎重維持部長剛剛的承諾維持最嚴的嚴格那同時文字在你們程序上面可以的時候給所有的委員大家都知道不要再產生這樣的爭議可以嗎一定我們一定會最大的誠意來解決剛剛委員所講的長期的一個爭議最嚴格的方式來審查最嚴格嘛大家都聽到了OK謝謝"},{"start":554.056,"end":554.784,"text":"好謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時48分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，上次質詢的時候提到專科護理師夜間津貼獎勵的問題，你也在這邊做出了很莊嚴的承諾。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：也感謝衛福部到我辦公室來說明了以後就依照我的要求，有發函讓大家知道，專科護理師只要落入在你們那個範圍，有夜間服勤的事實，大家都可以領得到錢，沒有大小眼、沒有差別對待，這個很重要，"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情我先謝謝部長，但下一個問題是函是發下去了，大家現在在擔心醫院是不是會真的按照你發的函來辦理，所以你可不可以跟大家宣示一下，醫院就是應該要確實遵守？"],["邱部長泰源：醫院要……"],["黃委員國昌：宣示一下，醫院要按照衛福部的函確實遵守，我現在是在做球給你耶！"],["邱部長泰源：OK，我在這邊也希望所有的醫院一定要按照衛福部文的規定確實去發放。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，非常好！來，接下來這個禮拜天本土小牙醫聯盟一些民間團體要提出他們具體的訴求，第一個是撤回24億假偏鄉計畫，衛福部不得開後門。衛福部支不支持？"],["邱部長泰源：我跟委員報告，這個「24億假偏鄉」這樣的名詞是錯誤的，這的確就是偏鄉計畫，因為這個偏鄉計畫已經從第一期、第二期……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，我們不要受限於標題，因為內容我其實也貼給你看了。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我直接再度回答，我們的優化偏鄉醫療經費第二期的牙醫這個部分，只是針對55個現在沒有牙醫的鄉鎮，我們鼓勵本國的醫師，當然是有執照的，絕對不是密醫……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以絕對不會沒有執照嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：絕對！第一個，絕對不會沒有執照，沒有執照我們醫師法不會讓他去執業。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，非常好。第二個、保留國外學歷採認原則，贊不贊成？"],["邱部長泰源：保留國外學歷採認原則，當然我一再重複我們絕對採用最高的要求，嚴格來做國外學歷的採認。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對採用最高的標準嘛！現在問題來了，因為這件事情考選部非常的困擾，為什麼考選部非常的困擾？2017年1月1號我們開始加嚴管制，結果到2022年6月22日，上一屆國會醫師法公布了三項附帶決議要放寬，引發軒然大波，所以在2022年6月22日三讀通過那三個附帶決議的時候，在考試院發生什麼事情？在考試院發生的事情是衛福部派去的代表，我不確定他是不是受到那個附帶決議的影響，他跑去考選部開會的時候，因為考選部基本的立場是尊重主管機關衛福部的政策立場，考選部把整個沿革都寫得很清楚了，結果你們2022年6月30日第43次的審議會議以後，你們同意不再適用國外大學或學院醫學系科學歷採認原則，從這個時候開始放寬。部長，這個基本的事實你有沒有掌握？"],["邱部長泰源：我首先跟委員報告，我們不會根據附帶決議去……"],["黃委員國昌：是啦、是啦，我知道嘛，所以我在一樣一樣放給你看嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是按照醫事法修法以後應該進行的，據我了解掌握的是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：要回到2017年那時候的標準嘛，就是你剛才所講最嚴格的標準嘛，但我今天為什麼要藉由這個機會去質詢？我怕部長事情忙，沒有辦法掌握這些基本的事實，所以我特別上來跟部長報告，2022年6月30日的時候你們派去考選部的代表說什麼啊？說沒有要再用那個採認原則，要放寬啊！結果，來、來、來，部長你看一下，2022年11月23日行政院函立法院說附帶決議我們不執行喔，這個是行政院直接回函立法院，因為那時候引發軒然大波，大家都來抗議了嘛，抗議完了以後接下來就看不懂了，行政院跟立法院講：這個附帶決議我們不會執行啦！意思就是什麼？學歷的採認不會放寬嘛！但問題是到第44次會議的時候你們衛福部為什麼沒有派人去？考選部開會喔，有關於醫師考試採認原則這麼重要的事情，衛福部竟然一個人都沒有去，部長，這件事你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這是2022的時候，因為我不在部裡面。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，部長回去查一下，一個禮拜之內書面回覆為什麼那時候沒有派人去。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有派人去的結果是什麼？我跟部長報告，沒有派人去的結果就是之前放寬了，第44次喔，雖然附帶決議不執行，繼續放寬！到第45次有派人去了，有派人去但一句話都沒講、一句話都沒有講！沒有跟考試院考選部講那個附帶決議沒有要執行耶，結果又按照第43次的繼續放寬，從43、44、45，附帶決議都已經不執行了，結果衛福部去考選部完全沒有表達這樣的意見，導致繼續放寬，違反部長剛剛所講一定用最嚴格的標準，這個是在玩兩面手法嗎？明著講一套、背後在放水嗎？部長可不可以回去了解一下為什麼會發生這種狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來要不要回復到2017年那個時候的嚴格採認標準？這個是現在大家關心的事情。"],["邱部長泰源：這部分醫事司可以說明一下。"],["劉司長越萍：我們已經把原則修到醫師法施行細則，最近會公布，所以就會用醫師法施行細則。"],["黃委員國昌：是現在你們公告的醫師法施行細則一之一嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：不是，那個是公告的草案，那個草案的部分等於是預告程序，所以我們要公告的部分會採認那個，已經把那個原則的部分修到我們預計修的醫師法施行細則第十三條裡面。"],["黃委員國昌：就維持2017年一模一樣的標準嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：文字有一些些的微調，因為那個原則裡面有一些些文字不精準部分。"],["黃委員國昌：那個文字會後可不可以給我？因為有的時候魔鬼就藏在細節裡，你微調以後的文字是不是有維持之前的標準？這個是大家現在在關心的嘛。"],["劉司長越萍：那個在程序中，所以如果要公告之前，我們其實在公告的那個同時可以送到委辦，因為這是程序問題。以上。"],["黃委員國昌：對，你們的行政程序我尊重，我最後只講一句話，拜託，這次不要再引發軒然大波了，吵了好幾年了！從2017年，2022年那時候在立法院偷渡那個附帶決議引發軒然大波，搞到行政院發函說那附帶決議不執行，這是很嚴重的事情耶，已經產生了這麼大的爭議，希望這一次要慎重，維持部長剛剛的承諾，維持最嚴格的標準，同時在你們程序上面可以的時候，把文字給所有的委員大家都知道，不要再產生這樣的爭議，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們一定會以最大的誠意來解決剛剛委員所講長期的爭議。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：同時我們也會用最嚴格的方式來審查。"],["黃委員國昌：最嚴格嘛，大家都聽到了，OK，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長。","接續請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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有請邱部長"},{"start":13.942,"end":32.518,"text":"委員好部長你好部長有關新冠跟流感混打的事宜根據美國醫學會的雜誌刊登的文獻研究發現同時接種COVID-19疫苗跟流感疫苗後中風的風險會增加"},{"start":34.652,"end":59.288,"text":"那美國食品藥物管理局的專家分析了醫療保險索賠的數據也得出相同的結論那同時CNN在去年的10月26日也報導混打會提高中風的風險那請問部長現在這些研究有出來對於風險的部分是持相反的意見那會不會考慮停止左流右行的這個這項做法"},{"start":61.149,"end":76.571,"text":"好 薛委員的指教齁 那我想我們所有的疫苗怎麼打 要打什麼 都是由ACIP齁 或者是相關的一個專家齁 經過很嚴謹的考的一個 當然他們每一個都是 應該都是這一方面的專家對 我相信是專家"},{"start":77.612,"end":99.82,"text":"所以應該會這樣的打法那個應該是專家所但部長我去查了一下因為左流右心的這個施打方法是在依據111年的2月25日傳染病防治諮詢會的流感防治組預防接種組的聯席會議訂定的所以是在111年的2月25號可是"},{"start":103.281,"end":125.308,"text":"這些是後來美國學界在去年做出病打會增加風險的研究所以我要跟你講的你懂我的意思嗎瞭解在這部分疾管署跟ACIP的會議是不是要重新檢討雖然說有很多的這種醫學的研究或許都有正反兩面的意見但是是不是應該要重新檢討而且要把這種各種風險明確的告訴我們的國人是"},{"start":129.304,"end":154.579,"text":"是的那是不是我請署長莊署長報告委員那有關這個報導的部分那容我們再去看因為每一個研究它有不同的一個證據等級那這個部分我們也會收集這些研究然後再去跟我們的ACIP的委員會來做這方面的一個對因為當初你們設定的時間點跟後來出來的研究是有落差的不過應該是說"},{"start":156.76,"end":180.176,"text":"當初是這樣但是我們陸續也有看到其他是正面的一些結果你說左流右心對所以我們也會好那我就接下來就繼續講了國外目前主要討論就是有關混打兩種疫苗後老人心血管啊腦中風的病患機率提高的問題那所以日前在基隆也出現左流右心一次接種之後就有民眾不幸死亡的案例"},{"start":181.616,"end":196.545,"text":"上個月在臺東也有接種5天後身亡的案例那對此 疾管署你們的回應是什麼回應是說通常都是接種一小時後發生的副作用那一般就不會被認定跟疫苗相關的副作用"},{"start":197.594,"end":224.623,"text":"是有關係但這樣的風險是不是存在民眾如果知道有這樣的風險而且接種後的副作用的保固卻只有一個小時部長你認為民眾對於這樣左流右行同時混打的接受度會提高還是會降低我想如果媒體這樣的消息當然會影響到接種率的意願所以以臺大意願而言在"},{"start":226.603,"end":254.562,"text":"11月現在是11月11月還打得不錯11月好像就稍微降下來了所以的確我們要好好的來來瞭解來跟民眾再度你們要應該要再一次的深入去瞭解重新召開然後因為他有風險應該是要讓民眾可以明確明白自己有風險之後再自行評估他要不要參與施打"},{"start":256.584,"end":267.098,"text":"我之前也幫很多疫苗受害家屬開過記者會討空到因為你們發生這件事情之後你們後續就在自己審議委員會裡面每一個案例只花了80秒的時間"},{"start":269.167,"end":291.14,"text":"而且深入分析之後統整大概衛福部就是用兩大招數在迴避自己的責任一個是以特定醫學文獻指稱患者狀況與疫苗無關第二個則是扣上患者可能有潛在慢性疾病的帽子那現在這樣子的做法如果沒有審慎去面對你就可能會創造更多新冠疫苗的這種受害者然後到時候再來揮"},{"start":292.792,"end":303.536,"text":"報告委員那像這一例他會做這個解剖啦所以會做進一步的查證那這個之前開會記者會很多細節就是你們就是不夠嚴謹那另外這個剛剛說這個開會80秒那個我想有些誤會因為其實我們每一個案"},{"start":309.898,"end":311.98,"text":"若沒有的話可不可以請部長在這裡澄清跟保證"},{"start":339.739,"end":344.106,"text":"我們冒著風險要去推這個左流右行並不是為了要為未來雙效疫苗在進行真實世界的人體試驗"},{"start":348.663,"end":376.119,"text":"我相信所有的專家疫苗專家我不曉得是誰但是一定都是各全國各地的醫療相關的精英你從我擔任在醫界這麼多年我相信沒有一個醫療的專家會站在任何所以部長你保證就不會是嗎我只是要你曾經保證一下嘛保證不會因為這種原因來做這種事情好所以我還是要強調一下我是希望提高接種率我還是要強調一下我並沒有反對疫苗施打的推行"},{"start":376.559,"end":404.84,"text":"但是你們應該要誠實而且非常公開透明的讓小心的告訴我們的民眾這應該是衛福部的責任而不是只是負責花錢去為了提升疫苗的打氣然後後續發生了又不管什麼副作用然後你們的整個整個審理這些疫苗受害的過程非常的狹隘讓這些人為了公衛去願意打這個疫苗可是發生問題之後卻得不到賠償"},{"start":406.428,"end":426.355,"text":"另外部長這個有關衛福部的這個霸凌的事情公務體系今天也很多人都有問但是昨天賴總統終於在事發17天後在臉書上檢討這件事情他強調每一位每一名員工都是政府機關重要的議員都是人才要加強對於他們關懷跟保護"},{"start":428.576,"end":446.283,"text":"那但是昨天勞動部和部長對於這個霸凌的調查報告說他有他的惡可是這樣的惡是不是普遍存在官僚體制中就像是德國哲學家漢納厄蘭所說的平庸的邪惡請問部長你認同這個這句話嗎平庸的邪惡"},{"start":450.523,"end":451.584,"text":"我是很認同何部長引述漢娜二蘭所說邪惡的平庸"},{"start":465.416,"end":485.334,"text":"因為那是在批判那些在納粹希特勒威權領導下社會集體的思考無能所以他是不是在影射這幾年的民進黨政府的執政我想這就用大家去解讀我就不評判了但是我要強調即使他說這個平庸的邪惡但絕對沒有目的良善的霸凌所以我想問一下上週這個"},{"start":490.205,"end":519.523,"text":"部長啊上週在社群媒體的這個有關爆料機關署整備組組長也有這方面的問題請教部長啊罵人是豬啊是求好行妾目的良善情緒失控公然侮辱還是平庸的邪惡哪一種啊罵人只要是在職場上有罵人都是不對的啦不管你用什麼言辭這樣子好所以這件事情啊霸凌的事件你們是不是也認知到這件事情不能再拖有我們一個禮拜之內會你是因為行政院"},{"start":520.003,"end":547.251,"text":"被行政院長罵了才趕快改還是行政院長道歉了因為你們本來說兩個月現在變一個禮拜院長是指示指示大家任何這有寫嘛以便媒體最後或者討論的是案件全部要在一周內完成調查追責責任這一件事情啊能夠帶來讓相關霸凌事件的重視跟加速的調查我想是我們在不幸中的這個事件要學到的其中一個教訓會很謹慎"},{"start":550.029,"end":578.18,"text":"好再來目前我們看到整備組的異動37%是確實是偏高的但是也高於機關署的13%所以幾個調查重點要特別提醒一下我們的部長第一個這個委員會的組成要合理該避免的人士就要迴避外部委員的人數也比例也應該要提高相關人士的邀約談還有包含主管基層"},{"start":579.076,"end":581.809,"text":"然後也要確保中間到底有沒有人吃案、押案"},{"start":582.99,"end":611.021,"text":"那也沒有要查核然後現在時代也不是只是用公文在下命令所以這些媒介都應該要去掌握那另外我是希望這個調查請部長我也有看到你有保證應該要公正超然不要有行政瑕疵不然我們一定會追究到底對我想這個該辦就要辦公務體系不應該成為這個官場現行記的舞台應該是穩定國家發展的基石主席不好意思我還有還是有一點點問題要問"},{"start":613.919,"end":634.11,"text":"好我直接跳下一題好了有關於日前食藥署發布公告將這個藥放寬六項標準標準放寬從一倍到三倍都有事實上減少農藥等化學物質在蔬果上提倡無農藥的種植都是趨勢我想問一下"},{"start":635.413,"end":647.646,"text":"為什麼現在會反其道而行放寬標準你看這裡面阿福平調高2.5倍其他3倍2.8倍這些都有高於歐盟3倍高於歐盟5倍都有我想要請問一下"},{"start":648.969,"end":674.7,"text":"為什麼會有這樣的原因是其他他國要求嗎還是是有其他的原因呢是不是是那個裝死請裝死跟委員報告一下因為這些農藥的放寬的標準主要的原因是我們那時候是依據農業部的要求有的是因為他在在各個地的依據農業部的要求啊那農業部為什麼要要求這件事情犧牲國人的食品安全健康"},{"start":677.074,"end":691.025,"text":"過去就已經討論過草莓農要標準放寬經過激烈的討論之後並沒有通過為什麼現在又要放寬呢是因為要因應日本的要求嗎還是有誰在下指導旗要犧牲國人的健康"},{"start":692.625,"end":698.968,"text":"以前就已經討論過為什麼現在要突然放寬明明就是往沒有農藥的方向去走就是趨勢那你現在放寬的背後的邏輯到底是什麼而且這也有寫日本草莓今年又新增開放了使用七種農藥"},{"start":719.315,"end":730.086,"text":"我要提醒你們不應該把人民的健康把人民的食安放在風險之中所以我反對把這個放款為了守護人民的食品安全好謝謝主席好謝謝廖委員謝謝我們一定會守護"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":657,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時36分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你好。部長，有關新冠跟流感混打的事宜，根據美國醫學會雜誌刊登的文獻研究發現，同時接種COVID-19疫苗跟流感疫苗後，中風的風險會增加；美國食品藥物管理局專家分析了醫療保險索賠數據也得出相同的結論；同時，CNN在去年10月26日也報導混打會提高中風的風險。請問部長，現在這些研究出來，對於風險的部分是持相反的意見，那會不會考慮停止左流右新這項作法？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，我想我們所有的疫苗怎麼打、要打什麼，都是由ACIP或者是相關專家經過很嚴謹的……當然他們每一個應該都是這一方面的專家。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我相信是專家。"],["邱部長泰源：這樣的打法應該是專家所……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我去查了一下，左流右新這個施打方法是依據111年2月25日傳染病防治諮詢會流感防治組、預防接種組聯席會議訂定的，所以是在111年2月25號！但這些是後來美國學界在去年做出併打會增加風險的研究，所以你懂我的意思嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個部分疾管署跟ACIP的會議是不是要重新檢討？雖然很多醫學的研究或許都有正反兩面的意見，但是不是應該要重新檢討？而且要把各種風險明確的告訴我們國人。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我請莊署長說一下。"],["莊署長人祥：報告委員，有關這個報導的部分，容我們再去看，因為每一個研究有不同的一個證據等級，這個部分我們也會蒐集這些研究，然後再去跟我們ACIP的委員會來做這方面的釐清。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為當初你們設定的時間點跟後來出來的研究有落差。"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說，當初是這樣，但是我們陸續也有看到其他正面的一些結果，也就是左流右新……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是也有負面的嘛，所以我……"],["莊署長人祥：對！所以我們也會蒐集一些文獻……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我接下來就繼續講，國外目前主要討論有關混打兩種疫苗後，老人心血管、腦中風病患機率提高的問題；日前在基隆也出現左流右新一次接種之後，就有民眾不幸死亡的案例；上個月在臺東也有接種五天後身亡的案例。對此，疾管署你們的回應是什麼？回應是說，通常都是接種一小時後發生副作用，一般就不會被認定跟疫苗相關的副作用有關係。但這樣的風險是不是存在？民眾如果知道有這樣的風險，而且接種後副作用的保固卻只有一個小時，部長，你認為民眾對於這樣左流右新同時混打的接受度會提高還是會降低？"],["邱部長泰源：我想媒體這樣的消息當然會影響到接種的意願，以臺大醫院而言，10月還打得不錯，11月好像就稍微降下來，所以的確我們要好好的來了解，再度給民眾正確的訊息。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們應該要再一次深入去了解，重新召開，因為他有風險，所以應該要讓民眾可以明確明白自己有風險之後，再自行評估他要不要參與施打。我之前也幫很多疫苗受害家屬開過記者會討公道，因為你們發生這件事情之後，後續在自己的審議委員會裡面每一個案例只花了80秒的時間，而且深入分析之後統整，大概衛福部就是用兩大招數在迴避自己的責任，一個是以特定醫學文獻指稱患者狀況與疫苗無關；第二個則是扣上患者可能有潛在慢性疾病的帽子，現在這樣子的做法如果沒有審慎去面對，你就可能會創造更多新冠疫苗的這種受害者，然後到時候再來「吵」。"],["莊署長人祥：報告委員，像這一例他會解剖，所以會進一步的查證。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個之前有開過記者會，很多細節你們就是不夠嚴謹。"],["莊署長人祥：另外剛剛你說這個開會80秒，我想有些誤會，因為其實我們每個案子都會有……"],["廖委員偉翔：這沒有誤會。"],["莊署長人祥：有3個委員，他們至少3個委員，他們會先看過……"],["廖委員偉翔：上次都已經講過了，我們在這裡就不繼續贅述，我在這個已經打過很多次了。新冠疫苗國內目前的品牌在這種混打式的就是莫德納，一直傳聞說有要雙打的原因是因為莫德納要推出雙效疫苗，也是同一支疫苗可以達到新冠跟流感的效果，是否真的有這個事情？如果沒有的話，可不可以請部長在這裡澄清跟保證，我們冒著風險要去推這個左流右新，並不是為了未來雙效疫苗進行真實世界的人體試驗？"],["邱部長泰源：我相信所有的疫苗專家，我不曉得是誰，但是一定都是全國各地醫療相關的精英，從我擔任在醫界這麼多年，我相信沒有一個醫療的專家會站在任何……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長你保證就不會是嗎？我只是要你澄清、保證一下。"],["邱部長泰源：保證不會因為這種原因來做這種事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。所以我還是要強調一下……"],["邱部長泰源：我是希望提高接種率。"],["廖委員偉翔：我還是要強調一下，我並沒有反對疫苗施打的推行，但是你們應該要誠實，而且非常公開透明的、小心的告訴我們的民眾，這應該是衛福部的責任，而不是只是負責花錢提升疫苗的打氣，後續發生的又不管什麼副作用，然後你們整個審理這些疫苗受害的過程非常狹隘，讓這些人為了公衛願意去打這個疫苗，可是發生問題之後卻得不到賠償。","另外，部長，有關衛福部的霸凌事情，公務體系今天也很多人都有問，昨天賴總統終於在事發17天後在臉書上檢討這件事情，他強調每一位、每一名員工都是政府機關重要的一員，都是人才，要加強對他們關懷跟保護，但是昨天勞動部何部長對於這個霸凌的調查報告說：她有她的惡，可是這樣的惡是不是普遍存在官僚體制中，就像是德國哲學家漢娜．鄂蘭所說的，平庸的邪惡。請問部長你認同這句話嗎？平庸的邪惡。"],["邱部長泰源：我沒有哲學家那麼了解，但是我只是堅持著像這樣的職場霸凌的情況我們一定要努力預防，不容許發生。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。部長我告訴你，我是很認同何部長引述漢娜．鄂蘭所說「邪惡的平庸」，因為那是在批判那些在納粹希特勒威權領導下社會集體的思考無能，所以他是不是在影射這幾年民進黨政府的執政，我想這就要大家去解讀，我就不評判了。但是我要強調即使他說這個是平庸的邪惡，但絕對沒有目的良善的霸凌！所以我想問一下部長，上週社群媒體爆料有關疾管署整備組組長也有這方面的問題，請教部長，罵人是豬是求好心切、目的良善、情緒失控、公然侮辱還是平庸的邪惡？是哪一種？"],["邱部長泰源：罵人，只要是在職場上有罵人都是不對的，不管你用什麼言詞。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以這件霸凌的事件，你們是不是也認知到這件事情不能再拖？"],["邱部長泰源：有，我們一個禮拜之內會完成完整的報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：你是因為被行政院長罵了才趕快改，還是行政院長道歉了？因為你們本來說兩個月，現在變一個禮拜。"],["邱部長泰源：院長是指示大家，這裡有寫：任何已被媒體揭露或者被討論的案件，全部要在一週內完成調查，追究責任。"],["廖委員偉翔：好我要說這件事情能夠帶來讓相關霸凌事件被重視跟加速調查，我想是我們在這個不幸事件中要學到的其中一個教訓。"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們會很謹慎的。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。再來，目前我們看到整備組的異動37%確實是偏高的，也高於疾管署的13%，所以幾個調查重點要特別提醒一下我們的部長，第一個，這個委員會的組成要合理，該避免的人士就要迴避，外部委員的人數比例也應該要提高。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後相關人士的約談，還有包含主管啊、基層啊，也要確保中間到底有沒有人吃案、壓案，然後LINE、mail要查核，現在時代也不只是用公文在下命令，所以這些媒介都應該要去掌握。另外我是希望這個調查，我也有看到你有保證，請部長應該要公正超然，不要有行政瑕疵，不然我們一定會追究到底。"],["邱部長泰源：是，當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想這個該辦就要辦，公務體系不應該成為官場現形記的舞台，應該是穩定國家發展的基石。","主席，不好意思，我還有一點點問題要問，好，我直接跳下一題好了。有關於日前食藥署發布公告，將農藥放寬6項標準，標準放寬從1倍到3倍都有，事實上減少農藥等化學物質、在蔬果上提倡無農藥的種植都是趨勢，我想要問一下，為什麼現在會反其道而行，放寬標準？你看這裡面：阿扶平調高2.5倍、其他3倍、2.8倍這些都有，高於歐盟3倍、高於歐盟5倍都有，我想要請問一下為什麼會有這樣的原因，是他國要求嗎？還是有其他的原因呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我請莊署長回答。"],["莊署長聲宏：跟委員報告一下，這些農藥放寬的標準，主要的原因是我們那時候是依據農業部的要求，有的是因為它在各地的產業……"],["廖委員偉翔：依據農業部的要求喔？那農業部為什麼要要求這件事情，犧牲國人的食品安全健康？過去就已經討論過草莓農藥標準放寬，經過激烈的討論之後並沒有通過，為什麼現在又要放寬呢？是因為要因應日本的要求嗎？還是有誰在下指導棋，要犧牲國人的健康？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，這件事情絕對沒有，因為我們現在有很多農藥標準有的時候是針對它的產品特性，因為它的施用或者是它的那個……"],["廖委員偉翔：以前就已經討論過，為什麼現在要突然放寬？明明往沒有農藥的方向走就是趨勢，你現在放寬背後的邏輯到底是什麼？而且這邊有寫：日本草莓今年又新增開放了使用7種農藥。我要提醒你們，不應該把人民的健康、把人民的食安放在風險之中，所以我反對把這個放寬，為了守護人民的食品安全。好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，我們一定會守護人民的健康，請放心。"],["主席：來。接續請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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對待。這不是一個文化認知嗎?"},{"start":708.084,"end":726.819,"text":"有沒有希望文化部能夠往最後面來努力?這個努力不要造成世代的對立,這個才能夠解決世代的問題。因為壯世代整個是為未來我們高齡者就當分子人口越來越多,少子化造成分母越來越小。"},{"start":728.22,"end":744.619,"text":"請問文化部有什麼解放?唯一的解放就是把分子撞起來拉下來當分母這就是壯士在追求的一個目標這應該跟文化部非常的符合的我希望文化部好好再思考再思考我們可以來好好的認知這一點"},{"start":745.64,"end":770.265,"text":""}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時39分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：吳委員你好。"],["吳委員春城：部長好。我的標題是我們需要一位能翻轉700萬壯世代的文化部長，請問部長你願意嗎？"],["李部長遠：你看我的年齡就知道我當然很關心這個題目。"],["吳委員春城：沒有喔，我是問你願意嗎？跟年齡無關。"],["李部長遠：我願意啊。"],["吳委員春城：很好，謝謝。臺灣再過41天就進入超高齡的社會，請問文化部有對應計畫嗎？請問部長有沒有對應計畫？超高齡社會這麼大的一個議題，全國將有20%的人超過65歲，請問文化部有針對這個問題進行討論嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實我們在整個文化政策裡面，很多項目都是跟超高齡社會，還有壯世代有關……"],["吳委員春城：真的嗎？"],["李部長遠：我可不可以請我們的司長跟你逐項報告？"],["吳委員春城：不用，等一下再問他們；但這個是真的嗎？是真心嗎？"],["李部長遠：真心啊！"],["吳委員春城：等一下我就讓你看你們的真心！上個禮拜，行政院院會之後，卓揆的新聞稿裡面談到讓壯世代持續貢獻社會，所以這是行政院現在重視的議題。我們的前文化部長、現在的副院長─鄭麗君說過部部是文化部，好大的豪氣！現在你們文化部敢不敢說這樣的話？"],["李部長遠：部部是文化部的意思是，每一個部門都有他的文化，都跟文化有關，我們文化部是所有部會裡面預算最少的一個部。我當然不敢講部部是文化部，但他的意思不是說我們是大部，而是每一個部門都可能跟文化有關。"],["吳委員春城：意思就這樣子……"],["李部長遠：是，我們還是很小的部。"],["吳委員春城：這個跟大小無關，這跟你的權責、責任有關，文化部當然要帶領整個國家的文化嘛！不是每一個部會都有自己的文化部、自己的文化，而是文化部要去帶領，因為這是你們的專業，你要讓他們各部會有文化，每一個部會有它的術業專精，對不對？","上個禮拜我去見副院長，我跟他交流非常得愉快，我真的感受到他是一個文化人，有文化的使命感，我覺得他對文化感動的深度是有的，所以跟他談話非常愉快，我們談了一個小時，他表示十分感動，也深表認同。我跟部長溝通了快兩個會期，我常常討論這個問題，請問你有同感嗎？"],["李部長遠：你剛才講是你跟院長還是……"],["吳委員春城：我見院長時，他手上也是拿壯世代。我跟你傳播的就像宣教士一樣一直在傳教，給我們文化部的同仁做這麼多的傳教，都快兩個會期了，請問你有聽進去嗎？"],["李部長遠：所以，我剛才說要跟您報告我們逐項已經做的事情，我請我們的司長跟你報告。"],["吳委員春城：我會找時間，我先看你們回答我的，你先不用口頭在這裡講。"],["李部長遠：您剛才講的那個壯世代，我一直非常認同。"],["吳委員春城：我認為現在已經到了文化國安危機的地步了，但文化部並沒有這個認知！我從你們的預算書，從你們回復過來的所有文件去看這個人口問題，到2040年我們將有三分之一的人口缺乏方向，其實最核心的問題，是我們對整個高齡社會的定型，沒有文化的論述，對於這些文化的偏見。事實上高齡化跟少子化是一體之兩面，但是文化部並沒有這個認知，沒有把這樣的一個責任放在自己的身上。我們臺灣本來是一個文化大國，中華民國是一個文化大國，但是我們現在並沒有感受到我們是一個文化大國，我們越來越是一個文化小國，在國際文化地位上面，越來越不具有地位。","從你們的計畫當中，感覺到你們一直在做的是什麼轉型正義，其實臺灣現在已經沒有轉型正義的問題了。臺灣往前三十年，最重要的事情是民主化，這個大家都認同；但走到現在還在搞民主，那就是笑話，文化部顯然還停留在那一個時空裡面。往後三十年，臺灣最重要的是人口學，人口問題天翻地覆，臺灣未來五十年會減少1,000萬人，你知道嗎？整個歷史的一個變化，天翻地覆的變化，是會影響到全面的！而且它的重要性會超越民主化對整個臺灣全面性的影響，我們卻任其荒蕪！為什麼會任其荒蕪？因為各部會完全沒有這種觀念。少子化的超高齡社會已經定型，大家認為那個超高齡社會是一個悲慘世界，還是一個美麗新世界呢？部長，你覺得是悲慘世界還是美麗新世界？"],["李部長遠：好像很難用悲慘世界跟美麗世界來形容這麼簡單的……"],["吳委員春城：沒有，這是一個信仰……"],["李部長遠：在臺灣作為一個……"],["吳委員春城：這是一個認知的信仰。我跟部長講，現在各部會大概都把它當作一個悲慘的世界，當你是這樣認為的時候，你提出的解方就是悲慘解方，這是一個定型的看法，未來我們的世界都是悲慘的嗎？換一個角度，如果把壯世代當作是一個美麗新世界，你就可以提出美麗的解方來。這個靠的是什麼，就是思維，看大家有沒有那個眼光。這個要靠誰？靠文化部！顯然文化部也是當作悲慘世界，這就是我為什麼說是文化的國安危機─文化部歧視高齡者，你們在114年的預算當中給予壯世代族群的計畫，只有在藝術醫療結合科技文化提供樂齡社交這一項，編列1,000萬元，其他的我們沒有看見。所以你剛才講的有多重視，難道這不是歧視嗎？在我的壯促法公聽會當中，各部會的資料都是厚厚一本，文化部則是一頁封面和一頁內容，這是什麼意思？再看一下你們的內容，第一點只說我們尊重各個族群，沒有什麼意思；第二點是配合行政院所做的，比如我們可以在高雄流行音樂中心舉辦2024藍寶石大歌廳演唱會，這是在嘲笑壯世代！壯世代就只配去藍寶石大歌廳嗎？這就是文化部對壯世代的認知嗎？第三點說什麼藝文活動、社交交流，數位賦能銀髮的什麼連結，所以我們在文化當中有沉浸式的，然後本部有電子書、擴充電子書等等。你們回答的就是這三點。文化問題這麼重要，會讓你們翻天覆地的翻轉，跟你們溝通了兩個會期，你們回復的就這三點，還說你們有多重視！請你們看看2024資訊月，數發部跟本席合作，舉辦了壯世代懂資樂園，就是懂資訊的樂園，改變大家的思維，我帶幾萬個壯世代族群進入資訊月裡面，第一次讓銀髮族大玩資訊月，你覺得他沒有可能嗎？你覺得他不可能嗎？過去都一直叫作樂齡資訊區，沒有人要去；我改變他的思維以後，人數大量增加，這應該是文化部要做的事情，數發部都已經在做了，數發部的黃部長對懂資樂園全力支持，但我沒有看到文化部！原本我對文化部有很高的期待，認為這是引領我們整個進入新社會當中的一個起手，但是到現在，我完全沒有看到文化部有這樣的努力。","部長，我本來一直都很尊重你，從頭到尾就認為你是一個文化人，而我對文化人非常的尊重，希望你不要成為一個政治人，攬上越來越多的政治色彩。本席也呼籲各部會應該改變這個錯誤的文化認知的人設，我們現在對銀髮族都停留在臥床、要去醫院、沒希望了，是年輕人的負擔，需要安養晚年等等，我看文化部現在對高齡者的態度也是這個樣子！","其實壯世代有三十年的健康餘命、要追求自我實現、要貢獻社會、要促進世代的循環，要有精彩的第三人生、要被正常的對待，這不就是一個文化認知嗎？希望文化部能夠往這方面來努力，不要造成世代的對立，這樣才能夠解決世代的問題。因為未來在整個社會裡面，高齡者就當分子、人口越來越多，少子化造成分母越來越小，請問文化部有什麼解方？唯一的解方就是把分子壯大起來，拉下來當分母，這就是壯世代追求的一個目標，應該是跟文化部非常的符合。希望文化部好好再思考，我們可以來好好的認知這一點。其實你們可以去google一下，幾十萬筆的資訊都在談這個問題，已引起社會極大的反應，文化部應該引導大家思維、思潮的方向，不要成為一個落伍的落後者。所以，我們需要一個能夠翻轉700萬壯世代的文化部長，來帶領各部會，期待部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員的質詢，部長請回。","接下來請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157325","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157325","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752e4bbcc18d22401737f9c834d54a4e02c64aaf8aafe3010ccbb479112f1783c0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:40:59 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請留主委請國會留主委主委 留委員早"},{"start":21.958,"end":28.648,"text":"賴總統他在上任的時候有提出了這個五大信賴產業同時也宣布了要延長這個我們台灣的投資三大方案也宣示了要讓我們的半導體還有AI的產業作為主軸"},{"start":37.301,"end":41.963,"text":"所以要讓不管是外商還是台商都能有意願的回來投資臺灣在這方面的話我們國發會也提出了國家發展的計劃尤其在這發展的計劃裡面總體經濟發展的目標未來這4年"},{"start":53.249,"end":55.83,"text":"經濟成長率2.8-3.6%事業率平均3.2-3.5%核心消費物價指數上漲率平均2%以下尤其是117年會達到人均GDP超過4萬美元本期請問的就是你怎麼樣去設定這個目標是依據什麼"},{"start":81.949,"end":102.718,"text":"我們是依據這個情勢的研判跟這個情勢的研判那以目前來講我們的經濟成長今年應該是3.96到4之間失業率目前是在3.47左右那核心的通膨一直在1.8以下所以你是知道以前的數據嗎就看以前的數據就對了整個社會的不全然還有經濟的發展經濟的發展好"},{"start":110.521,"end":115.322,"text":"那你這因為你訂出的這些目標我剛才念了你訂的這些目標但是我們看到在110年到113年的時候你們的經濟成長率大概平均在這個3.3到3.7但是你看到111年到112年你們這個平均值就是數字都已經是沒有達標的情形是不是那你又依照這個那你又訂得更高"},{"start":136.368,"end":144.496,"text":"那尤其是這個CPI這個部分的話你看到你的上漲率你要控制在這個1.0到1.5但是在這個111年他們都是一直下降提高那你都沒有控管好那你怎麼去定你的目標呢我們都思考過"},{"start":155.006,"end":163.63,"text":"目標是為了追求卓越我們不可能去定一個很消極的目標來讓國家追尋太過於樂觀嗎你這個都是以110年到113年的數據給你做看"},{"start":171.314,"end":185.769,"text":"在我們的經驗裡面其實我們這個東西就是要積極的努力去做了那找各種方法你的積極努力的話你有沒有想到說那整個消費市場的管控上能不能達到你的目標你要怎麼做"},{"start":187.14,"end":207.985,"text":"這個就是我們其實我們現在定期都在看這裡面的數字的整合我們每個月都有做適度的調整那我們包括從物價的委員會裡面所以你要去因應啊物價一直飆漲你不能讓水一直漲啊我們有在因應所以現在的CPI不只核心CPI也降到了2以下了那核心CPI就一直在1.8以內"},{"start":208.965,"end":219.047,"text":"所以這都是主委這都給你參考的但是你要努力的去因應怎麼樣去做對不對不能隨意讓這物價一直飆你看物價一直飆這CPI物價一直飆你還是要控管住嘛那尤其是這個人均那個GDP這個部分的話你要達到4萬那到今年的話是3萬3美元那你說能夠超越日本跟韓國最好是以以色列來併價期需那你的這個部分的話"},{"start":238.39,"end":255.399,"text":"那就要發展像賴總統講的就是半導體跟這個AI的產業因為這個是高薪的嘛你才有辦法把這個人均值提高起來那尤其是我們現在很多的製造業相關的產業他們就沒有辦法這麼高的薪水那你要怎麼去突破呢"},{"start":256.836,"end":265.12,"text":"我們現在的做法就是我們要盡量開創高薪的產業讓高薪的我知道我已經告訴你了對不對那從業製造業各方面的話那怎麼辦你不能全部依賴是這個半導體跟這個AI產業啊"},{"start":274.298,"end":292.571,"text":"經濟的成長他們是其他的像從業從事這個沒有相關的這半導體的產業的話他們是沒有辦法得到這經濟的紅利我們對於這個傳統產業我們希望他們轉型進入高質化的領域比如說像以螺絲扣件來講我們希望他進到了一定要轉型"},{"start":294.813,"end":297.214,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展"},{"start":318.24,"end":318.6,"text":"委員會提供的資料"},{"start":335.508,"end":351.467,"text":"我們現在的做法是希望增加高薪就業機會之後會增加所得稅收然後我們透過這個所得稅收的增加去補助輔助的比較收入比較低的這個族群所以我們透過福利政策去彌補它"},{"start":352.788,"end":377.915,"text":"我們希望經濟成長的當下我們也不要讓這貧富差距越來越大我們一定要看看怎麼樣讓這個分配這個均不均勻的情形我們來做個應驗突破的方法好不好這要注意的那接下來本席要請教的就是因為有在提到地方的創生我們有一個戰略政策也有加速這個地方創生來的努力但是我們看到在我們地方來講134個鄉鎮"},{"start":380.456,"end":394.785,"text":"還有30個鄉鎮沒有提案在這提案當中我們看到就像我們趙薇所說的南部的也要加強了像中部地區還有7個南部地區有19個東部有4個總共30個地區這鄉鎮還沒有提案的你們要想看看如何去輔導讓地方有特色有創造力的創生活的產業能夠去扶植他們尤其是要輔導跟協助"},{"start":410.225,"end":430.711,"text":"是的,我們現在會再強化這一塊我們在最新的計畫裡面就是會強化我們在福島的力量你有沒有了解他們為什麼沒有提案?提案上有什麼困難呢?你有去了解嗎?我們目前來講我們會進一步的去理解但是就我們之前的了解是"},{"start":433.025,"end":454.016,"text":"這個大家對於怎麼去提一個案子呢?我們後來經過輔導之後有改善那我們現在很多地方我們開始進入鄉公所、區公所的提案這很多方面有物價或者是房價、電價的問題這也是最核心的問題我們碰到一些單獨的企業就他的提案力道就會稍微弱一點所以我們現在很多地方是透過鄉鎮像獅子鄉等等這種鄉鎮來做帶動"},{"start":457.378,"end":484.633,"text":"那效果就有改善對在這些有提案的在113年7月底有提案的有1192件但是有348件他們幾乎是都不提了也都測案了這個是什麼情況那個測案已經有提過測案348件佔了四分之一是我們有了解因為他是微型企業他原提以後在進行他的企業申請跟規劃的時候發現他的難度比較大之後他們進行測案"},{"start":485.947,"end":487.068,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院地區永續發展"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時41分）謝謝主席，請劉主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：呂委員早。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，賴總統上任的時候提出五大信賴產業，宣布要延長臺灣的投資三大方案，同時也宣示要以我們的半導體及AI產業作為主軸，要讓不管是外商還是臺商都能有意願回來投資臺灣。針對這一方面，國發會也提出了國家發展計畫，在發展計畫裡面，關於總體經濟發展的目標，未來四年的經濟成長率會在2.8%到3.6%之間，失業率平均會在3.2%到3.5%，核心消費者物價指數上漲率平均大概會在2%以下，尤其是117年會達到人均GDP超過4萬美元。本席想請問的就是，主委，你怎麼樣設定這個目標？是依據什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們是依據情勢的研判跟經濟的邏輯。"],["呂委員玉玲：情勢的研判。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：以目前來講，我們今年的經濟成長應該是3.96%到4%之間，失業率目前是在3.47%左右，核心的通膨一直在1.8%以下，所以……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你這是照以前的數據嘛？就看以前的數據就對了？整個社會的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不全然，還有經濟的發展。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，經濟的發展。你訂出了這些目標，就是我剛才唸的這些目標，我們看到在110年到113年的時候，你們的經濟成長率目標值大概平均在3.3%到3.7%，但是110年到112年你們的平均值數字都已經是沒有達標的情形，是不是？你又依照這個訂得更高。尤其是CPI這個部分，你的上漲率要控制在1.0%到1.5%，但是111年的數字都一直提高，你都沒有控管好，那你怎麼去訂你的目標呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們都思考過，目標……"],["呂委員玉玲：都沒有如你的曲線去訂目標。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目標是為了追求卓越，我們不可能去訂一個很消極的目標讓國家遵循。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是你不能太過於樂觀啊，你這個都是以110年到113年的數據來看的，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：在我們的經驗裡面，其實這個東西就是要積極地努力去做，找各種方法。"],["呂委員玉玲：你積極努力，有沒有想到整個消費市場控管上能不能達到你的目標？你要怎麼做？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實我們現在定期都在看這裡面數字的整合，我們每個月都有做適度的調整，包括從物價委員會裡面，我們每個月都在看。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要去因應，物價一直飆漲，你不能讓它隨意一直漲啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們有在因應，所以現在的CPI不只核心，CPI也降到了2%以下了，核心CPI一直在1.8%以內。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，這個都是給你參考的，但是你要努力去因應、怎麼樣去做，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：不能隨意讓物價一直飆，你看物價一直飆，CPI物價一直飆，你還是要控管住。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其是人均GDP的部分，你要達到4萬，到今年的話是3.3萬美元，你說能夠超越日本及韓國，最好可以跟以色列並駕齊驅，這個部分就像賴總統講的，要發展半導體及AI產業，因為這些是高薪的，才有辦法把人均值提高起來，尤其我們現在很多製造業、相關的產業就沒有辦法有這麼高的薪水，你要怎麼去突破呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在的做法就是儘量開創高薪的產業，讓高薪的工作機會增加。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道，我已經告訴你了，對不對？從事製造業、各方面的話怎麼辦？你不能全部依賴半導體及AI產業。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：基本上……"],["呂委員玉玲：以我們這樣的經濟成長，像從事跟半導體沒有相關的產業，他們沒有辦法得到經濟成長的紅利。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對於傳統產業，我們希望他們轉型，進入高值化的領域，譬如以螺絲扣件來講，我們希望它進到太空、植牙等等。"],["呂委員玉玲：你要用轉型。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：一定要轉型，它如果還留在低價、低附加價值產品上面的時候，很難帶給員工足夠的待遇。"],["呂委員玉玲：人均GDP要突破4萬美金是很重要的，才不會讓我們的貧富差距越來越大。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們看到行政院主計總處在今年4月特別公布貧富差距的報告，前20%的家庭平均財富是5,133萬，後20%的家庭平均財富是77萬，貧富差距達66倍，所以我們要怎麼樣讓分配不均的情形獲得妥善的處理呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在的做法是希望增加高薪就業機會之後，會增加所得稅收，然後透過所得稅收的增加去補助、扶助收入比較低的族群，我們透過福利政策去彌補他。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們希望經濟成長的當下不要讓貧富差距越來越大，一定要看看怎麼樣針對分配不均的情形找出因應、突破的方法，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：這要注意。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來本席要請教的就是地方創生，我們有一個戰略政策，也有加速地方創生來努力，但是我們看到在地方來講，134個鄉鎮裡面，還有30個鄉鎮沒有提案，就像召委所說的，我們看到南部的鄉鎮要加強，像中部地區有7個、南部地區有19個、東部有4個，總共有30個鄉鎮還沒有提案，你們要想想看如何去輔導地方有特色、有創造力的創生產業，並扶植他們，尤其是要輔導跟協助。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，我們現在會再強化這一塊，我們在最新的計畫裡面會強化輔導的力量，希望……"],["呂委員玉玲：你有沒有瞭解他們為什麼沒有提案、提案上有什麼困難呢？你有去瞭解嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們目前會進一步去理解，但是就我們之前的瞭解，大家對於怎麼去提一個案子……我們後來經過輔導之後有改善，現在很多地方我們開始進入鄉公所、區公所的提案，那個提案算是效果比較好的。"],["呂委員玉玲：這有很多方面，有物價或者是房價、電價的問題，這也是最核心的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們碰到一些單獨的企業，它的提案力道就會稍微弱一點，所以我們現在很多地方是透過鄉鎮，像獅子鄉等等這種鄉鎮來帶動，效果就有改善。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，截至113年7月底，有提案的有1,192件，但是有348件幾乎都不提了，也都撤案了，這個是什麼情況呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那個撤案都是……"],["呂委員玉玲：已經有提了，348件撤案，占了四分之一耶！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們有瞭解，它是微型企業，原提以後在進行企業申請跟規劃的時候，發現難度比較大之後，他們逕行撤案。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以它整個計畫不夠成熟，自己就退件了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們將來也會去實際在……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要輔導。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會試著去輔導改善。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們會有補助、協助他們，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們希望地方創生能夠永續傳承來發展，這樣可以創造多元的經濟模式，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：請主委努力一點，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員，主委請回座。","下一位請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-16","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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很好我已經完成相關的法制程序所以後續只有行政程序的主辦好 那我的心可以安一半好 下一頁 謝謝"},{"start":242.921,"end":258.673,"text":"如果財化法被搬走了6612億中央可用的財源只剩下4159億我們各個部會站在這裡的有法務部有內政部我們的非法定支出都會受到影響"},{"start":260.354,"end":282.43,"text":"所以我反對這種分配不正義、事權不統一、財政不紀律、配套完全沒有提出的財化法的修正它造成的災難從法務部、內政部、警政署、包括訴發部、包括調查局、包括NCC一個都逃不掉你們都是受災戶啊!下一頁"},{"start":284.022,"end":305.879,"text":"在下一頁來我們來看看警政署請署長跟次長可以回答這是你們提供給我的如果說才化法錢被挖走了在警政署的部分高達360億的非法定支出當中很多是新興計劃就會受到波及"},{"start":306.92,"end":332.351,"text":"打詐查閉是一大類影響最大的最大條的就是一個45億的網路科技運用精進計劃另外呢打詐之外我們的治安裝備升級不管是軟體硬體也都有五大項的預算受到波及請問署長或次長誰可以回答"},{"start":333.231,"end":356.983,"text":"我這邊整理數字正確嗎?如果被影響了這麼多,這樣被安裝?我這個就很麻煩了,未來如果說很多這個預算是先進而且是中央要做的是沒辦法分散到各地方政府去執行了,這會造成一個大災難因為比如講像第一項的這個網路流量的一個流程"},{"start":357.823,"end":383.414,"text":"這個是因為打詐四法通過之後應用法律必須要去建置的一個設備要去做偵查犯罪設備那這個部分就是在這個電信三大業者要去製作前端還有我們這個六大的一個一個一個治安的系統製作後端那如果說這個如果沒有沒有沒有過的話那這個對的打詐是會有大打折扣"},{"start":384.298,"end":389.92,"text":"你們要大聲把這樣的訊息說給社會聽因為警政一條邊這些預算是中央來執行尤其打詐的部分打詐四法如果連帶的預算受阻了預算被搬空了而地方又沒有辦法把這樣的事權下放我們的地安、我們的打詐都是假的"},{"start":409.446,"end":429.765,"text":"要把這樣的聲音傳散出去更重要的是你們也要未雨綢繆找到可行的權宜的措施來 下一頁政部長 財化法二修之後你們法務部也成為重災戶我整理出來的法務部部本部"},{"start":430.766,"end":449.016,"text":"剿政署乃至於調查局加起來受影響的非法定支出有136.6億而當中跟打詐四法成立之後打詐相關的預算高達28.8億 未定未當來 部長 怎麼辦因為法務部系所屬機關都是屬於中央機關那這部分"},{"start":458.22,"end":475.782,"text":"採訪法這部分對中央這部分的經費預算對這部分的確是有影響我們是蠻擔心的剛才有提到就是以調查舉為例那個購置網路流量記錄的那個分析系統五億五億那是跟那個警政署我們分那是屬於打詐的流量對"},{"start":476.303,"end":497.358,"text":"那是打詐是純打詐的一個費用所以這部分我們蠻擔心這個有做一個擠壓我們希望是我們是全力是在嚴辦那個打詐還有毒品等犯罪我們不希望就是有這樣受到一個影響沒有錯你看法務部部本部我們補助毒品防治特別收入基金6.6億這部分嗎"},{"start":499.059,"end":513.403,"text":"也受影響,乃至於我們要支援各地的高檢、地檢署來辦理各類的刑事案件,它的業務費21.1億,也就是我們要替很多的助理、檢察官來過勞的狀況來解勞,然後來給予一些津貼補助的相關經費,全部都受影響。」"},{"start":520.245,"end":543.88,"text":"而這不是地方政府能夠做的事嗎這個像檢察處理這部分的確是初步可以暫時解決就一部分紓解檢察官的工作的一個負擔尤其像我們這些打詐的案件的確是還在處在高峰期那我們也是希望說這部分能夠多考慮到我們中央機關的這些的預算的窘迫"},{"start":545.188,"end":552.929,"text":"有權需要錢嗎?是權要統一我希望你們也努力把這個聲音傳散給社會知道也要加強遊說我們的朝野立委我相信多數立委還是支持打詐支持治安防治一定要讓立委們知道如果才化法這樣子的掏空了中央的執行經費"},{"start":573.193,"end":588.743,"text":"連同事權沒有辦法統一的來跟地方分擔的話那大家都受影響而我要說今天站在我面前的不管是警政署的業務或是法務部的業務這些顯然都不是地方政府能夠執行的下一頁"},{"start":591.704,"end":605.79,"text":"這就是剛剛說的網路流量記錄的偵查預期效應這個資料庫45億編載警政署5億是法務部這就是我們這一次打詐四法非常重要的"},{"start":606.79,"end":628.289,"text":"要能夠建置這樣一個網路流量的資料庫才能夠有利於我們去做電信類的這種打詐案件的偵訪這真的是大事不容小覷我們希望《財化法》的災難不要波及了打詐跟治安防護的工作下一頁數法部其實也沒有辦法倖免於難"},{"start":631.772,"end":660.045,"text":"其實金管會也有啊對於打詐四法當中的金流要去查查洗錢速發部就有3.6億的防詐通報查詢與數位信任應用發展的經費受到影響而調查局要查查金融資料AI分析的平台2.7億都受影響把聲音傳出去下一頁最後一頁我們在對不起"},{"start":660.845,"end":688.494,"text":"我們這一屆期大家都關心基層檢察官的過勞包括我們的招委他來自於檢察體系大家都為基層檢察官努力的發聲爭取預算如果才化法二修了我剛剛列出這一筆21.1億來協助地方來辦理不管高檢、低檢辦理他的業務或者是來補貼所有的檢察官助理的經費"},{"start":690.297,"end":691.464,"text":"全部都受影響。」"},{"start":692.955,"end":722.147,"text":"是不是是那個謝謝委員的關心那我想基層檢查官的確是過勞那賠償的辛苦有時候搬一個磚三天三夜都沒睡覺所以結果再當檢查就會一大早跑去問你還活著嗎所以我就覺得對啊所以檢查官沒有中央檢查官地方檢查官嗎全部都是我們法務部要來協助的嘛要來安排擴大照顧的最後一頁所以我們搶救打詐的預算搶救治安的預算大家一起來"},{"start":722.887,"end":750.816,"text":"我們要呼籲再呼籲搞政治的鬥爭也不要犧牲基層執法的工具我在這裡非常的語重心長我希望各部會大家強化對於國會的遊說因為治安工作打詐工作這些還有司法偵辦這真的不是地方政府能夠分擔的業務我們為全國人民來著想謝謝主席給我時間謝謝大家辛苦一起加油謝謝"},{"start":752.415,"end":753.148,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1065,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長，然後有請馬次長、張署長，還有NCC的陳處長。"],["主席：鄭部長、馬次長、張署長、陳處長。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，大家辛苦，大家早安。我今天要來搶救打詐預算，如果我們的財劃法被修正通過了，我們可能會面臨一場財政的大災難，很多中央所權屬的預算被下放到地方，但是錢被挖走了，權力跟事權，事權沒有統一、沒有下放，所以在打詐會大打折扣。這個表格我歷次在質詢有關打詐時我都會拿出來，也就是詐欺罪現在已經是各刑案之首沒有錯嘛！而詐欺罪當中的電信詐欺的恐嚇案又是最多，達六成三，就今天兩個部會的報告，我們都可以綜整來觀察到，青少年跟外籍移工就成為打詐非常重要的防制對象。打詐四法雖然通過了、上路了，我們賦予了打詐一個更強的、更有力的防禦工具，但是它的成效會大打折扣喔！我首先請NCC的陳處長，NCC的人事同意權目前還停擺，我們看到卓院長會重提人選，但是在野黨主導的NCC組織法把所謂的延任條款給刪除了，以致於我們嚴重地會延宕高達104項業務，當中打詐占了很多項，尤其我剛剛說的電信詐欺是詐欺罪當中的六成三，又剛剛說外籍移工是偵防的重中之重，外籍移工用的移工卡、電信卡能不能夠對到使用者跟人，這都是重中之重，如果NCC的人事同意權持續地受阻，對於打詐的影響，哪些業務沒有辦法推？"],["陳處長春木：報告委員，有關於打詐的部分，主要還是詐欺犯罪危害防制條例的部分的相關，有關電信服務……"],["吳委員思瑤：電信事業嘛！"],["陳處長春木：電信相關的子法也已經完成相關的立法程序，有關於打詐的業務裡面，如果沒有涉及到提到委員會審議的案件的話是不會受到影響，目前……"],["吳委員思瑤：你們現在要啟動一個所謂葉克膜條款，就是有些部分用委員的諮詢會就可以來替代，是不是可以盡可能想方設法把打詐相關的業務就用這個葉克膜條款來因應，否則我非常不樂見NCC的人事同意權，一天不通過，你們的打詐，在NCC的電信事業的協力上就會有很大的空窗跟停擺。"],["陳處長春木：報告委員，在打詐的部分目前都沒有要提到委員會審議。"],["吳委員思瑤：那怎麼辦？全部都受影響了！"],["陳處長春木：就是行政程序就可以處理了。"],["吳委員思瑤：都可以，確定？"],["陳處長春木：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那很好，希望這真的是好消息，一定要讓所有打詐的相關作為，因為你們電信業的三振條款，這些應當都能夠提早因應，很好。"],["陳處長春木：都已經完成相關的法制程序，所以後續只有行政程序的部分。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我的心可以安一半。如果財劃法被搬走了6,612億，中央可用的財源只剩下4,159億，我們各個部會站在這裡的有法務部、有內政部，我們的非法定支出都會受到影響，所以我反對這種分配不正義、事權不統一、財政不紀律、配套完全沒有提出的財劃法的修正，它造成的災難從法務部、內政部警政署，包括數發部、包括調查局、包括NCC，一個都逃不掉，你們都是受災戶啊！我們來看看警政署，請署長跟次長可以回答，這是你們提供給我的，如果說財劃法錢被挖走了，在警政署的部分高達360億的非法定支出當中很多是新興計畫就會受到波及，打詐查弊是一大類，影響最大的、最大條的就是一個45億的網路科技運用精進計畫；另外打詐之外，我們的裝備升級，不管是軟體、硬體也都有五大項的預算受到波及，請問署長或次長誰可以回答，我這邊整理數字正確嗎？如果被影響了這麼多，這樣要怎麼辦？"],["張署長榮興：這個就很麻煩了，未來如果很多預算是新興而且是中央要做的，是沒辦法分散到各地方政府去執行，這會造成一個大災難，因為比如講像第一項的網路流量的……"],["吳委員思瑤：資料庫。"],["張署長榮興：這個是因為打詐四法通過之後，因應法律必須要去建置的一個設備……"],["吳委員思瑤：最重要的一項。"],["張署長榮興：要去做偵查犯罪的設備，這個部分就是在電信三大業者要去製作前端，還有六大的治安系統製作後端，如果沒有過的話，這個對打詐是會大打折扣。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們要大聲把這樣的訊息說給社會聽，因為警政一條鞭，這些預算是中央來執行，尤其打詐的部分，打詐四法如果連帶的預算受阻了、預算被搬空了，而地方又沒有辦法把這樣的事權下放，我們的治安、我們的打詐都是假的，要把這樣的聲音傳散出去，更重要的是，你們也要未雨綢繆，找到可行的權宜的措施。鄭部長，財劃法惡修之後，你們法務部也成為重災戶，我整理出來的法務部部本部、矯正署，乃至於調查局，加起來受影響的非法定支出有136.6億，而打詐四法成立之後，當中跟打詐相關的預算高達28.8億，完全不能動，部長怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為法務部及所屬機關都是屬於中央機關，財劃法對中央這部分的經費預算的確是有影響，我們是滿擔心的，剛才有提到就是以調查局為例，購置網路流量紀錄的分析系統……"],["吳委員思瑤：5億。"],["鄭部長銘謙：5億，那是跟警政署分攤，是屬於打詐的流量，但是打詐是純打詐的費用，所以這部分我們滿擔心這有做一個擠壓，我們是全力研辦打詐還有毒品等犯罪，我們不希望受到影響。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有錯，你看法務部部本部補助毒品防制特別收入基金6.6億也受影響，乃至於我們要支援各地的高檢、地檢署來辦理各類的刑事案件，它的業務費21.1億，也就是我們要替很多的助理、檢察官過勞的狀況來解勞，然後來給予一些津貼補助的相關經費，全部都受影響，而這不是地方政府能夠做的事嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：像檢察官助理這部分的確是初步可以暫時解決，就一部分紓解檢察官的工作負擔，尤其像我們這些打詐的案件的確還處在高峰期，我們也是希望這部分能夠多考慮到我們中央機關這些預算的窘迫。"],["吳委員思瑤：有權需要錢嘛！對不對？事權要統一，我希望你們也努力把這個聲音傳散給社會知道，也要加強遊說我們的朝野立委，我相信多數立委還是支持打詐，支持治安防治，一定要讓立委們知道如果財劃法這樣子掏空了中央的執行經費，連同事權沒有辦法統一的來跟地方分擔的話，那大家都受影響。而我要說今天站在我面前的，不管是警政署的業務或是法務部的業務，這些顯然都不是地方政府能夠執行的。剛剛說的網路流量紀錄的偵查預期效益，這個資料庫45億編在警政署，5億是法務部，這就是我們這一次打詐四法非常重要且要能夠建置這樣一個網路流量的資料庫，才能夠有利於我們去做電信類打詐案件的偵防，這真的是大事情，不容小覷，我們希望財劃法的災難不要波及了打詐跟治安防護的工作。數發部其實也沒有辦法倖免於難，其實金管會也有，對於打詐四法當中的金流要去查察洗錢，數發部就有3.6億的防詐通報查詢與數位信任應用發展的經費受到影響，而調查局要查察金融資料AI分析平臺2.7億都受影響，把聲音傳出去。我們這一屆大家都關心基層檢察官的過勞，包括我們的召委他來自於檢察體系，大家都為基層檢察官努力的發聲、爭取預算，如果財劃法惡修了，我剛剛列出這一筆21.1億來協助地方辦理不管高檢、地檢辦理的業務，或者是來補貼所有檢察官助理的經費，全部都受影響，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員的關心，我想基層檢察官的確是過勞，非常的辛苦，有時候辦一個專案3天3夜都沒睡覺，以前我在當檢察長時就會一大早跑去問：你還活著嗎？所以我就覺得我們在一個……"],["吳委員思瑤：對啊！所以檢察官沒有中央檢察官、地方檢察官嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，全部都是中央。"],["吳委員思瑤：全部都是我們法務部要來協助的嘛！要來安排擴大照顧的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我們搶救打詐的預算、搶救治安的預算，大家一起來，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主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員超明：其實我們的邱召委是很有理性、很謙和的人，今天發生這樣的事情，真的是國發會要檢討、檢討。好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員超明：我今天首先仍然要感謝國發會，對於行政院核定桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，尤其國發會特別支持我們苗栗縣，結果我們爭取了竹南科學園區第二期、頭份科學園區還有後龍產業專業園區，我特別感謝你，還有國土發展處黃處長和彭副主委，再次謝謝，之後仍然要繼續給我們幫忙跟協助，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：你來苗栗看一看，苗栗實在是很有發展的地方，比南部還要好，不要天天只顧著南部。那一個地點是未發掘的寶，所以請你一定要多多給我們關心及支持。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員超明：第二點，剛剛我聽了賴瑞隆委員談到地方創生，其實地方創生是上山下海，我今天也特別感謝黃處長，在苗栗縣配合的三個景點都非常成功，我特別感謝他，今天我為什麼感謝他？因為他真的陪著上山下海，他到地方也不怎麼講話，我在旁邊問他的意見，他又很客氣，但是每一次提的意見都非常中肯，所以在地方創生上，我們在苗栗縣有很大的發展，我在大力的推展，我一直跟黃處長說：你也跟你們主委說一下，你也編一個規劃費用來做可行性評估，讓財政確實有困難的地方可以做一個真正好的規劃。這裡面當然有很多事項，劉主委，這一點是我自己的親身體驗，而且我是親自去推動的，我希望你能聽得進去，有一個規劃費用來做可行性評估，對地方的幫忙很大，地方創生才能繼續推動，這樣好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會用試辦的方式來考慮，我想是不是找一個時間去你那邊看一看？"],["陳委員超明：你找一個時間下來，我再跟你說內幕。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們來討論。"],["陳委員超明：不然像這樣我自己知道又不便講，講的話就會得罪一些團體還有一些人。","再來我有一點要叫你做，可見你都沒怎麼在關心，我看了一個報導說國發會創10年來新高，國發會通過114年公建預算2,405億，交通建設占過半。這裡面有寫到114年的公共建設預算跟前瞻五期，前瞻五期有幾百億你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：七百多億，703億。"],["陳委員超明：好，703億，剩下的算起來差不多1,700億。我上次就跟你說過了，我說：拜託、拜託，把這個資料給我。結果你把我的話當耳邊風，我下次當召委就要叫他來修理了，我跟你講。在這裡面，你說各部會提出266項計畫，前瞻第五期有49項公共建設計畫，我叫你們把大的項目列給我，但是你們無動於衷啊！我的質詢你去看一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：我為什麼要這些呢？你把大的計畫列出來，我看預算書才比較容易找到重點，這樣一來，苗栗縣的財政困難，我才能爭取多一點。上次說要兩個禮拜給我，結果又沒有，然後又拖過兩個月了，現在我再給你兩個禮拜的時間，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我今天下午就給你啦！"],["陳委員超明：好，這樣我感謝你！確實管理顧問公司的董事長出來就是有經驗，另外也謝謝黃處長。","再來我要說我今天看到一則新聞，韓國把軍工企業外銷到波蘭將近500億美金，從這裡我就想到一些問題，國發基金有投資到中鋼的興達海基公司，六年虧損64億，相當於一年賠10億，但是我看他們發的新聞稿，我覺得很悲哀，說是臺灣要提高自製率，然後你們又把它取消掉，我覺得很莫名其妙，中鋼真的沒有什麼，如果這樣的作為……世紀鋼是小公司，人家一直這樣做過來，但中鋼好像虧損64億也沒關係，你們投資了12.5億在裡面，結果你們也沒有來一個報告。我曉得邱志偉召委說北胖南瘦，其實這裡面的問題很多，中鋼不努力，他的團隊裡面有很多勢力，南部的勢力太深了，中鋼在南部地方插手的很多，這裡面牽扯很多問題。今天要解決這個問題，我建議召委，如果中鋼的興達海基公司要弄好，那就排一個考察，排一個世紀鋼、再排一個中鋼的考察，比較之後就能了解問題之所在。"],["主席：我排過了，你沒去啊！"],["陳委員超明：不是，你排過我怎麼不曉得？你也沒有通知我去，你以後要找委員會的專家過去……"],["主席：我排過……"],["陳委員超明：你要兩個比較一下，就能發覺問題在哪裡。那你們還要不要繼續投資？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：興達海基嗎？"],["陳委員超明：對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們不會再加碼了。"],["陳委員超明：對，這一點我就贊成。一間大公司錢那麼多，結果做出來比小公司還不如，中鋼真的要檢討，不能投資！還有不能投資它的什麼？綠電的買賣平臺，硬的不行，還要吃軟的，中鋼這麼沒有骨氣啊！中鋼未來的經營也要特別注意，我希望這一點你們要特別注意。還有國產自製化現在說要開放，你們真的是在損害臺灣的主權，是在出賣臺灣。WTO說要告我們，怕什麼？川普保護主義就出來了，自由貿易跟保護主義現在在打仗，你怕什麼？歐洲人一這樣威脅、恐嚇，你們就軟下來，還跟他搭配，其實他們要的就是這些東西，你知道他們在越南或韓國做一做，然後來這裡組裝，一支就少1億嗎？我以前提過好幾次，中鋼真的不爭氣，你說缺焊工，你曉得世紀鋼焊接的工人找不到，他從哪裡找？從越南調過來啊！做生意的學問很多，你要怎麼生存？劉主委，你之前是資誠管理顧問公司的董事長，我相信你很了解這是怎麼運作的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，我了解。"],["陳委員超明：再來，你連風電都做不好，韓國在賣軍工企業，你如何去抗中保臺？每天都跟我們講抗中保臺，但是連風電都做不好，要如何抗中保臺？我實在也想不通，他也點頭了，不要天天喊抗中保臺，我們實力強最重要，謝謝啦！召委又站起來了……"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員。"],["陳委員超明：我現在很怕你，你站起來萬一我不下臺，你又生氣了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我不會生氣，我只是讓議事順利進行。好，請主委回座。其實本席沒有生氣，我也沒有動怒，我只是希望議事能夠順利進行，讓預算審查能夠順利，我的出發點是這樣子，我一向是對事不對人，所有的國發會同仁也應該是為自己所屬單位的預算全力去爭取，這本來就是你們的職責之所在，如果質詢的時候人不在，當然對質詢委員是有點不太尊重，我希望大家彼此互相尊重。","下一位質詢請呂玉玲召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-16","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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bicyn 審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":150.885,"end":155.426,"text":"如果現在這個才華版本通過我們文化部的預算會少130億這已經將近一半了所以我非常擔心所以我自己也去計算了除了錢以外你少了一半的預算代表我們有一半我們文化部現在正在做的我們正在支持的事情會無法進行那包括了什麼呢像我們的新興計畫裡面很重要的地方藝文場館"},{"start":178.413,"end":195.16,"text":"各個縣市的藝文場館我們要支持博物館相關的深耕我們要支持我們有影視基地是不是明年也有一個新興計畫是影視基地發展計畫然後呢我們非常重視的各個縣市都要做的地方創生是不是也在明年的新興計畫裡面"},{"start":197.621,"end":207.623,"text":"這個是我們明年本來新增要做的但是我們預算如果少了不只是現在延續性無法做新興的更不用講延續性的計畫就代表過去在做我們要持續做像我剛講的我們對台流這個文化影音的支持這是延續性計畫嘛我非常的擔心啊如果說未來現在潮流法版本通過文化部的預算少了一百三十幾億少了一半"},{"start":224.261,"end":248.293,"text":"不只我剛講這個台流計畫我們的國家電影中心我的選區我的兩廳院這是我們中正區藝文廊道重要的據點這些如果通通因為預算沒有辦法進行的話裡面還包括了桃園市立美術館的興建這也是我們文化部我們一直在支持的計畫所以我希望文化部不只是我們立法院的教文委員會"},{"start":249.574,"end":250.035,"text":"接下來要跟部長討論的是台灣Plus"},{"start":271.095,"end":275.798,"text":"我比較重視的是我們的新聞的專業度跟精確性因為前陣子有一個非常爭議的美國大選的報導嘛裡面使用到了罪犯這個詞所以當然以新聞的專業度來講相當不精確所以呢台灣plus也急速的做出下架的這個決策既然會認為要下架代表"},{"start":292.128,"end":311.906,"text":"我相信台灣Plus的內部編輯的控管是有足夠的專業能力來進行判斷但是我們要問的問題就是了為什麼這麼有爭議性的報導會讓它上架你們既然認為要下架代表認為有爭議嘛這個內部的我們目前編輯的程序是如何呢有沒有進行檢討我想請執行長來回答好請說明"},{"start":316.05,"end":337.611,"text":"報告委員確實我們在這個編輯作業上面來講當天發生了一些狀況內部檢討了以後要再做改進那現在已經有成立諮詢委員會來協助我們把既有的這些編審流程再做檢視要加強的地方我們要趕快跟上所以我們整個流程會有一個精進的檢討會有一個新版的是嗎是我們現在已經一直都有但是我們有請諮詢委員來幫我們來加強看哪些細節應該要調整"},{"start":341.694,"end":359.649,"text":"新聞最重要的就是專業性,所以請你們務必要精確把流程把它精進好不好?台灣Plus在成立的時候這個是台灣的公共媒體的影音平台,當時行政院核定的宗旨就是說希望能夠以英語為媒介向國際社會來呈現台灣自由多元的文化價值。"},{"start":365.373,"end":368.395,"text":"所以這非常的重要這個跟中國的環球電視網在國際上面常常傳播不實的訊息這種不實內容沒有專業度的官宣是完全不同的我們對你們的期待是有專業度的國際公共媒體所以請你們務必要把它精確是我們會比照國際公共媒體的標準來自我要求"},{"start":386.089,"end":401.782,"text":"好感謝那接下來要跟部長討論的是我非常重視的是臺灣的文化資產保存這過去我在當臺北市議員就相當關心我甚至是有一棟我們審計部的文資的提報人親自到審議會去報告說明新事項的這個"},{"start":404.451,"end":426.113,"text":"今年7月的時候監察院有一份調查報告是關於國立台灣大學的文化資產保存部長知道這份報告嗎?知道是這個報告裡面就提到說臺大的文資數量非常多50年以上的房舍有369棟日式宿舍有116棟"},{"start":428.055,"end":428.075,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":443.826,"end":460.156,"text":"光是臺大的這個68座文化資產就超過了全臺灣其他五個縣市比嘉義市、嘉義縣、基隆市、臺東縣的文資都還要來得多來部長我請教你你知不知道去年我們文化部補助給全臺灣的大學我不講臺大的這個文資的修復我們補助經費多少?非常少大概6千多萬吧"},{"start":472.723,"end":487.496,"text":"來,去年齁,我們補助一所啦,就成大,我們補助了360萬,對,但去年一整年我們補助給地方政府做文資修復大概是數十億元,所以台大它是一個特例嘛,因為它的文資數量實在太多了,"},{"start":488.156,"end":493.699,"text":"數量跟誰差不多?跟新竹市全新竹市加起來新竹市70處台大就有68處我們一年補助給新竹市的文資修復是1億2000萬所以部長我希望你們我已經請教育部要趕快跟文化部討論我們應該要來協助大學來進行文資的保存"},{"start":508.948,"end":533.603,"text":"因為他現實際上面就有困難部長這可不可以文化部趕快來跟教育部一起討論我想這個問題已經驚動到我們前面一個院長直接去請各大學盤點他所需要的所有的保存的經費可能要用公共建設計畫報行政院才能夠解決所以這個問題他要的費用非常高所以我想我們就可以繼續"},{"start":534.804,"end":556.515,"text":"adequate跟教育部來談這個盤點然後最後要用一筆很高的預算是有沒有預計什麼時候完成初步的盤點文字局來回答一下我想這個我們的我們以前已經跟教育部有開過會了那請他們盤點我們再追蹤一下既然已經開過會那12月底之前給我們初步的盤點"},{"start":559.364,"end":577.71,"text":"我們來協調教育部除了補助之外提醒部長跟局長法規也很重要其實監委有給我們建議因為費用實在太過龐大你們也知道所以說我們過去已經修過文資法就私有文資來進行容積移轉協助他能夠積極來進行文資保存這個法規已經修過但是公有文資有沒有開始進行討論公有文資能不能也來適用這個容積移轉呢"},{"start":587.813,"end":607.449,"text":"公有文資融資移轉大家討論很久,先前的討論是認為現在私有文資的融資移轉在市場的競爭性已經不足了,如果再加上公有文資的融資移轉的話,是不是造成反而對於私有文資的保留?所以還在進行討論?要再積極討論,好不好?"},{"start":612.193,"end":627.21,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":627.21,"end":628.471,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":654,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時28分）謝謝主席。請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：吳委員，你好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。首先想跟部長分享我最近生命當中少數的美好，就是我最近狂看臺劇「影后」，而且不只一刷，已經到二刷了。也跟你分享，我在網路上看到網友在討論，你要問我「影后」已經刷幾次了？很難計算，因為我自己在平臺已經看了兩次，但是社群上面每個人都在分享「影后」觀後心得，所以在社群上面已經刷了無數次。首先，我想請問臺劇「影后」文化部有沒有支持？"],["李部長遠：有，文策院有投資，再加上我們的輔導金，都有。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以文化部有補助，文策院有沒有直接或間接投資？"],["李部長遠：有。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：報告委員，這一部影片文策院投資48%的伯樂影業也有參與投資。"],["吳委員沛憶：我覺得所有的臺劇、臺灣的影像製作，在文化部的黑潮計畫裡面都有，這很重要，也希望你們可以持續進行，讓我們臺灣的創作者可以有更多發揮的舞臺。講到支持就要講到預算了，今天其實是預算詢答，11月6日的時候，國民黨不到3分鐘的審查討論，實際上沒有討論就讓財劃法出了委員會。目前行政院的預估，若現在這個版本的財劃法通過，中央整體的預算會短少六千多億。部長，假設是按照現在財劃法的版本，中央總共短少六千多億，文化預算會短少多少，你們有沒有去計算過？"],["李部長遠：我們最近才剛盤算出來，我請次長說明，好不好？"],["吳委員沛憶：是。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，我們初步估計照現在的算法，應該會少131億左右。"],["吳委員沛憶：131億？你們明年的文化預算，公務加前瞻加起來是多少？"],["王次長時思：300億。"],["吳委員沛憶：明年是超過300億，我們史上新高，這是我們的政見，也是我的政見，我選舉公報上面有寫，國家的文化預算要逐年來提升。如果現在這個財劃法版本通過，文化部的預算會少130億，這已經將近一半了，所以我非常擔心。我自己也去計算了，除了錢以外，你少了一半的預算，代表有一半文化部現在正在做的、我們正在支持的事情會無法進行，包括了什麼呢？像新興計畫裡面很重要的地方藝文場館、各個縣市的藝文場館，我們要支持；博物館相關的深耕，我們要支持；是不是明年也有一個新興計畫是影視基地發展計畫？我們非常重視各個縣市都要做的地方創生，是不是也在明年的新興計畫裡面？這是我們明年本來新增要做的，但是預算如果少了，不只是現在延續性的計畫無法做，新興的更不用講！延續性的計畫就代表過去在做，我們要持續做，像我剛剛講的對臺流文化影音的支持，就是延續性計畫。我非常的擔心現在財劃法版本通過，文化部的預算少了一百三十幾億、少了一半，不只我剛剛講臺流計畫，國家電影中心、我的選區、兩廳院，這是中正區藝文廊道重要的據點，這些如果統統因為預算沒有辦法進行的話，裡面還包括了桃園市立美術館的新建，這也是文化部一直在支持的計畫嘛！所以我希望文化部，不只是立法院教文委員會，所有委員在自己的選區裡面文化建設的軟、硬體都是非常重要的，我希望你們要多多去溝通，好不好？讓委員們知道這些預算，其實對地方的文化深耕來講是非常重要的，請你們加強溝通好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來要跟部長討論的是TaiwanPlus，我比較重視的是新聞專業度跟精確性。前陣子有一個非常爭議的美國大選報導裡面使用到「罪犯」這個詞，以新聞的專業度來講，相當不精確，所以TaiwanPlus也急速地做出下架的決策。既然會認為要下架，我相信TaiwanPlus內部編輯的控管是有足夠的專業能力來進行判斷。但我們要問的問題就是：為什麼這麼有爭議性的報導會讓它上架？你們既然認為要下架，代表認為有爭議嘛！目前內部的編輯程序是如何呢？有沒有進行檢討？"],["李部長遠：我想請執行長來回答。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，請說明。"],["余執行長佳璋：報告委員，確實我們在編輯作業上面來講，當天發生一些狀況，內部檢討了以後要再做改進，現在已經有成立諮詢委員會來協助我們把既有的編審流程再做檢視，對於要加強的地方，我們要趕快跟上。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以整個流程會有一個精進的檢討，會提出一個新版的，是嗎？"],["余執行長佳璋：是，我們一直都有，但我們有請諮詢委員來幫我們加強看哪些細節應該要調整。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，新聞最重要的就是專業性，請你們務必要精確把流程精進，好不好？"],["余執行長佳璋：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：TaiwanPlus在成立的時候，是作為臺灣公共媒體的影音平臺。當時行政院核定的宗旨，就是希望能夠以英語為媒介，向國際社會來呈現臺灣自由、多元的文化價值，所以這非常的重要，跟中國環球電視網在國際上面常常傳播不實訊息、不實內容、沒有專業度的官宣是完全不同的，我們對你們的期待是有專業度的國際公共媒體，所以請你們務必要讓它精確。"],["余執行長佳璋：是，我們會比照國際公共媒體的標準來自我要求。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，感謝。接下來要跟部長討論的是，我非常重視臺灣的文化資產保存，過去我在當臺北市議員就相當關心，甚至我是審計部有一棟文資的提報人，我親自到審議會去報告說明新事項的。今年7月監察院有一份調查報告，是關於國立臺灣大學的文化資產保存，部長知道這份報告嗎？"],["李部長遠：知道。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個報告裡面就提到臺大的文資數量非常多，50年以上的房舍有369棟，日式宿舍有116棟，後續可能還有其他房舍會持續再被提報，所以這個數量只會再更多，這什麼概念呢？全臺北市的古蹟總共537處，其中超過十分之一都在臺大的資產當中！光是臺大的68處文化資產，就超過了全臺灣其他5個縣市，比嘉義市、嘉義縣、基隆市、臺東縣的文資都還要來得多。部長，我請教你，你知不知道去年文化部補助給全臺灣大學的文資修復，我不講臺大，我們補助經費多少？"],["李部長遠：非常少，大概六千多萬吧。"],["吳委員沛憶：去年你們補助一所，就是成大，你們補助了360萬。"],["李部長遠：對，去年三百多萬。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是去年一整年，你們補助給地方政府做文資修復，大概是數十億元，所以臺大是一個特例，因為它的文資數量實在太多了，它的數量跟誰差不多？跟全新竹市加起來，新竹市70處，臺大就有68處，你們一年補助給新竹市的文資修復是1億2,000萬。所以部長，我已經請教育部要趕快跟文化部討論，你們應該要協助大學來進行文資的保存，因為它實際上面就有困難，部長，可不可以請文化部趕快來跟教育部一起討論？"],["李部長遠：我想這個問題已經驚動到前面一個院長直接請各大學盤點它所需要的、所有的保存經費，可能要用公共建設計畫報行政院才能夠解決，它要的費用非常高，我想我們可以繼續跟教育部來談這個盤點，最後用一筆很高的預算，經行政院通過……"],["吳委員沛憶：有沒有預計什麼時候完成初步的盤點？"],["李部長遠：請文資局來回答一下。"],["陳局長濟民：我們先前已經跟教育部有開過會，請他們盤點，我們來追蹤一下。"],["吳委員沛憶：既然已經開過會，12月底之前給我們初步的盤點資料，可不可以？"],["陳局長濟民：好，我們來協調教育部。"],["吳委員沛憶：除了補助之外，提醒部長跟局長，法規也很重要，其實監委有給我們建議，因為費用實在太過龐大，你們也知道。我們過去已經修過文資法，就私有文資來進行容積移轉，協助他能夠積極來進行文資保存，這個法規已經修過，但是公有文資有沒有開始進行討論？公有文資能不能也來適用容積移轉呢？"],["陳局長濟民：委員，公有文資要用容積移轉，大家也討論很久，當然先前的討論、初步的討論是認為現在私有文資的容積移轉，在市場的競爭性已經不足了，如果再加上公有文資的容積移轉，反而對於私有文資的保留會造成……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以還在進行討論？"],["陳局長濟民：在進行討論，我們會在近期的文物……"],["吳委員沛憶：要再積極討論，好不好？"],["陳局長濟民：對，是。"],["吳委員沛憶：補助跟法規，兩者要兩軌並進，我們要趕快來提供協助，文資保存都是在跟時間賽跑，我想局長、部長非常瞭解，你們要趕快，文化部要加強對於全臺灣文資保存的支持，可以嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：是，可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後感謝部長，因為這兩天艋舺大拜拜，萬華一年一度的小過年盛事，謝謝部長來到萬華，親自體驗我們在地的文資，還有我們的市集、在地文化團體、青年的活力，感謝你。很多人也知道部長的家鄉就是萬華，也很開心你回到故鄉來，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，部長請回。","本席在這裡要先感謝一下吳沛憶委員，關心我們在地的地方創生藝文館，特別也幫本席的選區桃園市立美術館，我想連吳沛憶委員都非常擔心桃園美術館會沒有錢，我希望部長切記該補給我們的要補給我們，不過一旦財劃法過了以後，我想我們有錢下放地方，恐怕部長就不用傷腦筋了。部長加油，謝謝。","接下來我們有請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157317","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157317","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752e345a206f5c1781c5f16e2c62e3913b464aaf8aafe3010cc94d4c3b9d427a4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:23:00 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ext":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":677.566,"end":677.586,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":703.025,"end":717.851,"text":"我照顧多少的孩子那這些孩子都不生病都是健康那這樣子我覺得是不是也可以朝這樣的一個方向來發想謝謝委員的指教我們現在在推兒童專責醫師就希望給他一個從疫房是"},{"start":718.331,"end":744.812,"text":"然後到整個他環境的一個關心來下手預防剩餘治療當然有任何問題也給他最好的一個處理所以現在已經開始做了嗎有在做而且是各縣市現在都積極在運作是也蠻多醫師參與的也非常感謝他們好我希望就是說因為我們一直在講嫂子話我們每一個小孩都是寶貝所以一定是給他最好的一個照顧"},{"start":746.356,"end":762.144,"text":"那剛剛講的新生亡那個部分那個也是重點對更多的小孩出生安全的出生平安的長大對這都是我們每一個歷程我們都要努力來做是好我我我希望就是說這個區塊應該應該也是就剛剛講的這個這個呃嘉義科跟兒科可能是比較不會"},{"start":768.968,"end":769.108,"text":"黃秀芳委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時23分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我今天想要請教就是有關兒童醫學的部分，因為我們知道少子化的議題真的非常地嚴重，我在前兩、三天參加一個兒科醫學會的研討會，其實大家都非常擔心少子化的問題，以及我們所有兒科醫師的人力短缺。我想請教就是，我們知道兒童比較困難的疾病，其實兒科醫師要診斷這個疾病也許要花更多的時間去判斷，然後去診斷，確實在這幾年當中，兒科醫師的投入，在醫學院也好，因為人力不足，所以有很多的醫師即使已經在這家醫學中心工作很久了，也五、六十歲了，他還是要值班，最近我聽到的是這樣，兒科醫師還要值班，所以有的人就會覺得不想待在原本的醫學中心或醫院，就直接轉到診所，就自己到診所去。所以我們發現兒科醫師人力短缺的議題非常地嚴重，我們也知道少子化這個問題是國安問題，我們的兒童死亡率也高於其他國家，高於美國、高於日本。所以我今天想要請教部長，我們一直希望能夠優化兒童的醫療照護，其實我也看到國衛院底下有一個兒童醫學及健康研究中心，我認為國衛院底下的這個健康研究中心其實沒辦法實際上照顧到我們這些兒童的醫療，現在全臺灣的兒童醫院從北到南，其實感覺也沒有多少家啦。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：譬如臺大醫院，臺大的兒童醫院成立到現在十年，我們也看到跟其他世界先進國家比較起來，其實對於兒童醫院，衛福部或中央的資源挹注還是有限。我想請教的就是，第一個，未來部長在你的這個位置上面，對於我們的兒童醫療人員短缺或是分配不均的問題，你要去做什麼樣的努力？另外就是，我們的兒童醫院確實很多是比較急症或是比較罕病或是比較難醫治的這些兒童疾病，很多人可能會想說到兒童醫院，我覺得如果可以有一個類似兒童醫療的研究中心，這樣子會不會比較好？而不是分散到其他的兒童醫院。我是不是可以先請教部長，未來有關兒童醫療專業人力的短缺或是分配不均的議題，你要怎麼去處理？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員對兒童健康以及兒醫人力還有目前的困境提出了非常精闢的見解，也提出這些問題，的確這就是我們兒科現在面臨的問題，我首先特別著重，因為委員很難得，我們一起來關心兒童急重難罕症的部分，我想各個醫學中心，尤其是像北部這些醫學中心、醫院花在這個部分、投入的人力跟經費其實都是值得肯定的，這個我們首先要了解，但是這個部分畢竟是要花費比較多，沒有什麼盈利、盈餘。"],["黃委員秀芳：是沒錯啊，就是不會賺錢的科別嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：像我在臺大醫院，每個月在公布各科營收時，就只有兩科特別不會賺錢，一個是家庭醫學科，一個是兒科。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：有些科都還可以翻身，兒科就是很難經營啦，所以醫院其實都是很努力在維繫這樣的資源，來照顧兒童的健康，所以我想我們政府當然是有必要在人力跟資源方面給予最大的支持。"],["黃委員秀芳：那你要怎麼做？你要支持這個部分，那你要怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們有一些優化整個兒童照顧的計畫，剛剛委員有提出來，其實裡面就有很多計畫來改善這樣的環境，但我還是強調這是非常重要的。是不是請醫事司司長來跟委員報告一下？"],["劉司長越萍：報告委員，就兒童醫學人才的部分，我們大概就會希望是由兒童醫院跟醫學中心作為領頭羊，也因為這樣，所以我們在優化兒童醫療網的計畫裡面有八家核心醫院，這就是人才培育；在網絡連結的部分，因為一定要有產出，像委員剛剛特別在這個地方講的是幾乎都在基層這一塊的執業部分，所以我們才會利用，就是訓練人才的部分透過核心醫院來帶動，跟區域網絡連結的時候，人才才會不斷地留下；也因為這樣，所以我們今年11月就開始發放留任獎勵金給住院醫師跟所謂的研修醫師，甚至對小外醫師也來加碼。剛剛委員垂詢研究的部分，我覺得要拆開，臨床研究必須分散，可是政策研究這部分的話，因為它還會結合到我們衛福部的資料，這樣子來看，我們其實106年開始就透過國衛院這邊來合作，因為長期的政策合作在人力分布這一塊，我們覺得對兒科醫師的發展才會更健全。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們現在政策的研究就交給國衛院。"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：那臨床的研究就交給目前有兒童醫院的這些醫院嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：包括醫學中心，因為兒科發展這一塊的科技研究部分，主要的經費來源會來自國科會，國科會這邊會鼓勵各個學門，以這個部分來說的話，大致上衛福部是支持人員出國進修，所以在我們的優化兒童醫療網裡面，是鼓勵我們這邊的人才出國進修，補助這一塊。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們知道目前兒童醫院有時候申請一些案子的經費都不是那麼穩定，我們也希望政府能夠有一個比較長期穩定的預算經費來支持兒童疾病的研究，我不知道部長您的看法怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：有啊，我們四年有提供135億來協助相關兒童醫療照護的發展。"],["劉司長越萍：我補充一下，部長剛剛講的就是第2期行政院這邊特別加碼，因為第1期的時候是四年28億，在第三年執行的過程當中就發現，這樣的預算遠遠不夠、超出我們之前的估算，所以今（113）年有加碼到20億，以這個預算的額度來預估，行政院已經特別通過了優化兒童醫療網第2期的計畫，這邊也希望委員能夠支持優化兒童醫療網四年135億，以上。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想再請教一下，賴總統在2025年健康台灣的政策當中有提到一個，希望將新生兒的死亡率降到4‰，要達到這樣的一個成效。如果要這樣子的話，其實需要大量的資源投入，或是要有一些大數據或預防的方案，我想請教，你們剛剛有特別提到，可能政策方面是交給國衛院去做一些研究，那應該也要進行各單位的資源整合才有辦法完成，要不然臺灣的新生兒死亡率跟其他鄰近國家比起來其實是比較高的。"],["邱部長泰源：對的，目前來講，用我們的統計方式是5.2‰，而我們健康台灣的目標是要把它降到4‰以下，第一個，我們要釐清data跟國際間標準化的算法；第二個，我們要加強孕產相關的照顧；我想這個部分給予兒醫相關團隊鼓勵是更重要的。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，最後因為時間的關係，召委可能會希望準時一點，那我就儘量準時，我最後一個題目。我想請教，目前我們希望兒童儘量不要生病，那應該也是要從預防方面著手，而不是說生病之後才從醫療方面，應該是不要讓他生病，就是用預防的方式。如果要預防，如同剛剛部長有特別提到，如果說有家醫師、兒科醫師，可能也需要讓爸爸媽媽有一些觀念要怎麼樣來預防，譬如說，小朋友也許腸病毒期間儘量不要到公共場所或是之類的，針對這樣子的預防觀念，我覺得如果讓所有的兒科醫師……因為現在少子化，其實他們也會覺得這是一個壓力，因此我們應該是從預防的觀念，就是對兒童各種疾病的認識，然後把這個訊息傳遞到各個兒科醫師或者是醫院，甚至到所有的家長，以預防的觀念出發。譬如家醫科照顧多少的孩子，那這些孩子都不生病、都是健康，我覺得是不是也可以朝這樣的一個方向來發想？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，我們現在在推兒童專責醫師，就是希望給他從預防然後到整個環境的關心來下手，預防勝於治療，當然有任何問題也給他最好的處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以現在已經開始做了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有在做，而且各縣市現在都積極在運作，也滿多醫師參與的，也非常感謝他們。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，因為我們一直在講少子化，確實……"],["邱部長泰源：每一個小孩都是寶貝啦，所以一定是給他最好的照顧，剛剛講的新生兒部分也是重點，更多小孩安全的出生、平安的長大，每一個歷程我們都要努力來做。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我希望這個區塊應該也是……"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，我們一定更加努力！"],["黃委員秀芳：剛剛講的家醫科跟兒科可能是比較不會賺錢的科別。"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們健保署也給兒科很多給付。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，所以我覺得政府應該也要投入更多的資源在這邊。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定要留住兒科的醫療人力，因為這是非常重要的事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員，謝謝部長。","接續請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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微波爆米花（好市多賣的．克蘭的．微波爆米花兩件都檢測出PFAS全部超出丹麥的TOF標準就20ppm有一件超出較寬鬆的歐盟TOF標準"},{"start":710.62,"end":714.482,"text":"直掀參核﹐台灣某容器生產商的參核檢測出PFAS﹐它的含量是歐盟草案標準﹐已經是最寬鬆的﹐57倍PFAS﹐"},{"start":741.015,"end":758.428,"text":"再生紙包材 臺灣終於有一個法規還可以臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的也不能使用再生紙的所以這類能收集到的不跟食品直接接觸的但是有風險的就是裝彈的彈盒其中有兩個品項進行檢測 一個是"},{"start":763.123,"end":786.221,"text":"全聯賣的勤益是好雞能蛋勤益是好雞能蛋它的蛋核檢測出PFAS同樣的主婦聯盟的快樂主婦雞蛋的蛋核沒有沒有檢出這樣 部長你知道PFAS它的風險在哪裡嗎部長 你要聽過PFAS嗎阿姨的風險在哪裡"},{"start":794.656,"end":799.601,"text":"這很誤會,這已經大家沸沸揚揚說很久了,這幾年都在說PFAS部長,不知道沒關係,保證沒關係雖然你是醫生的,但是你可能不知道雖然這個議題很夯啊,大家討論的,不管從環境或是食品安全來講討論得沸沸揚揚"},{"start":817.39,"end":834.003,"text":"我是知道這個最近大家都有在談這個啦因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質包括防油防水抗汙所以他很廣泛的在利用連包括衣服上都也有連那個鍋具都有連那個"},{"start":835.404,"end":860.167,"text":"化學消防泡沫都有連防水醫療食品包材一次性的悲劇在台灣人吃那個紅茶啦中島吃的便當空啊裝披薩的披薩盒啦速食店的包裝啊這個小吃攤路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS農藥相片染劑化妝品保養品我們的主本的鍋具塗層通通都有"},{"start":860.848,"end":863.212,"text":"所以你做衛福部部長．．若不了解．．其實是．．可不應該一組阿巴委員齁 我想那個"},{"start":870.082,"end":891.524,"text":"雖然明年食藥署有一個計畫 我覺得我會請他們喔 現在你為了這次叫明年有一個計畫來 我跟你講 它是永久性的化學物質 不易被分解 生物環境的蓄積累積性的毒物它遠距離的環境傳輸 而且它持久性而且因為累積 不但累積再累積 所以它有生物的放大性"},{"start":892.145,"end":892.205,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":916.476,"end":916.576,"text":"北極熊市長"},{"start":937.429,"end":942.053,"text":"對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺、透過母體傳輸給胎兒的慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等在這種狀況裡面PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝這個是很嚴重的它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大"},{"start":962.33,"end":972.659,"text":"他在安全性的數據上面大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體人體中的濃度與血液肝臟腎臟較高短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除"},{"start":979.244,"end":991.656,"text":"常戀的PFAS由糞便排除但是對人類短戀的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等但是對常戀的PFAS要需要好幾年好來"},{"start":994.875,"end":999.256,"text":"以確保飲用水水質安全和品質（而且今年年底就要完成公告你們做了哪些事關於PFAS的"},{"start":1025.12,"end":1032.844,"text":"國際監視商會定有批發值的一個...你清晒講講不要亂講喔你講得比較清楚的喔還沒有定出限量食品容器的現在只說食品容器我講國際喔我念你聽你說國際到現在都沒有人有聽我講給你聽喔"},{"start":1054.071,"end":1068.181,"text":"對斯德哥爾摩公約他在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其顏類因為PFOS是很多類很多類的總和的名稱PFOS包含很多東西"},{"start":1069.022,"end":1078.329,"text":"那其中PFOS包含了很多東西．PFOS的裏面的PFOS．他2009年就禁止了．2020年禁止使用PFOA．2022年起計劃要將PFHXS及其顏類納入條約．而且在2023年要生效．"},{"start":1092.259,"end":1107.785,"text":"2023年1月去年 荷蘭 德國 丹麥 瑞典 挪威已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案 而且這個生效也要將禁止在消費品當中使用PFAS 全禁"},{"start":1108.968,"end":1137.361,"text":"他是全禁欸但是之前是禁了PFO是PFOPFHXS並不是沒有他是沒有全禁而已我們環境部的確也禁了PFOA啦PFOA 我在說你啦然後呢依照歐盟2023年3月資料歐盟諸委會我們當然就不能用了歐盟人家是禁他們歐洲不能用不是我們不能用啦我們都本地生產本地使用"},{"start":1137.921,"end":1161.64,"text":"我們毫無標準我們連基礎調查都沒有你們來這裡還敢講說我們外國沒有所以我們沒有不要講美國在6月美國參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案從今年開始他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝你現在跟你說世界各國都沒有人金你是在裝瘋欸你這個書店跟你說的話我會理你就相信喔"},{"start":1166.345,"end":1192.445,"text":"美國近年去的全部都不能有還有批發的食品包裝欸你不要講這麼多啦 我想問你 你有做過調查嗎尤其環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查所有的營用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計畫讓他們的調查所有有的水庫已經做了很久的這樣"},{"start":1194.151,"end":1196.974,"text":"結果水庫也沒有每天使用的免洗的紙餐盒也沒有用咖啡杯也沒有用紙袋結果水庫裏面他們抽樣發現PFOA 37個樣品側值大於室內客的佔了74%"},{"start":1213.047,"end":1221.191,"text":"PFOS 13個樣品 測值大於4個耐克1公升的 佔抽樣%是26%這兩年測量水 因為水值就是高山 老外的就測不中啊 啊我們每天在吃的人要怎麼做"},{"start":1232.95,"end":1257.879,"text":"我最好問你啦我們有沒有食品安全監測計畫這幾年來有做過嗎這個 莊市長回答一下當然也沒有 你什麼都不知道喔有 我們有做過相關的來相關的你給我聽報告委員 那個我們食品要務曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFOS的含量的調查那我們這次大概在114年還會再做一次"},{"start":1259.76,"end":1273.034,"text":"來你把調查報告給我看我要講相較於水質調查台灣PFAS食品風險評估有沒有做過有112年有做過什麼你們調查報告叫什麼名字我講風險評估剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告這是兩件事欸"},{"start":1279.625,"end":1297.529,"text":"報告委員這個是叫食品中持久性有機汙染物全服碗機化合物質調查及風險評估好調查報告送來調查完成了好那歐盟2022年發布了2022及1431規章建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族監測期間如果發現人家是這樣講如果發現蔬果"},{"start":1308.851,"end":1315.874,"text":"訓類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時要進一步的調查原因那請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上如果你發現蔬果、訓類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候你要進一步調查為什麼?污染的風險來源是什麼?原因在哪裡?你們有沒有這樣子做?我們會在114年這個計畫中做"},{"start":1337.341,"end":1350.449,"text":"那你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素暨包裝包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究你們剛剛講的是你們研究的是這些持久性的化學風品對人的影響"},{"start":1352.113,"end":1358.8,"text":"那我現在講的是那台灣各種食品安全的監測的研究有沒有沒有那你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的這個PFAS的風險評估有沒有沒有"},{"start":1370.629,"end":1387.809,"text":"因為你們講的是檢驗方法開發和經濟研究結果2022年做的要2025年才公佈2023年2024年都有做結果你們要2025、2026、2027年才要公佈您的其中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來可以嗎其中報告不要到final"},{"start":1389.716,"end":1417.463,"text":"所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已台灣各種食品台灣環境裡面或是各種包裝他的監測計畫要做長期全面性的監測你了解問題有多嚴重才知道要怎麼管制和解決你可以不做你不做的前提是全部都管制直接禁止使用你有辦法嗎保定"},{"start":1418.311,"end":1445.207,"text":"你若沒有做監測計畫不了解問題多嚴重你比照美國全面禁用可以嗎有辦法全面禁用嗎PFAS我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作啦齁那如果一定要把它做到最好所以委員所提示的指教的我們馬上都來進行我在問你說阿拉伯戶阿部總部金融食品容器食品包裝全部禁用PFAS有辦法馬上全禁嗎我們馬上來研議"},{"start":1447.978,"end":1448.338,"text":"主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":516,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時58分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。職場霸凌的案件鬧得沸沸揚揚的，疾管署也被爆料，我首先要在這裡跟大家講，根據1111人力銀行的調查報告，職場霸凌裡面的產業別，除了傳統製造業的18%最高以外，接下來大概就是公部門，公務部門職場霸凌的比例雖然排名第四，但是第二名是13%，第四名是12%，相差無幾。意思就是，公務體系、公家機關、教育部門這些公部門裡面的職場霸凌問題僅次於製造業，是非常嚴重的，這是人力銀行的調查報告，職場霸凌在公務體系很嚴重。","我再來講第二個問題，這種事情我們不是有正規的管道嗎？當受到不法侵害，不是都有正規管道嗎？為什麼這些議題都是透過爆料報導出來，然後機關才去重視，甚至出人命了，紙包不住火了，才要去面對？通常都是因為內部的正常管道被冷處理、被壓件，這是基本上整個事件的本質，一定是這樣子。這樣你知道我要說什麼了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們對於相關的事件絕對要預防，不允許有這樣的情形發生。"],["林委員淑芬：疾管署整備組組長的事件，你知道兩年內你們署內離職的人員高達幾成嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：疾管署12%。"],["林委員淑芬：12%，人家外面說高達三、四成，你講12%也可以。"],["邱部長泰源：整備組……"],["林委員淑芬：我講的是署內。"],["莊署長人祥：署內是12%。"],["林委員淑芬：整備組呢？"],["莊署長人祥：37%。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣的人員流動是正常的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有偏高的現象。"],["林委員淑芬：37%！現在離職後的空缺多數也補不到人，補不到人以致其他的公務人員要分擔更多，在這種狀況裡面，顯然是因為這個組長的作為讓人家待不住，然後很多人離職了，沒有離職的人還要做更多，所以這個單位是高壓狀態喔！所以難怪有人說：真的不要再逼死人了。這個組長被人家爆料，缺乏耐性，每天緊逼進度更新，要創新要亮點，卻不顧本業的業務無法運作，然後如果有催促急上線的亮點政策出包，就要卸責給底下的人，連訂某家便當他都要指定，吃久了又說不好吃、吃膩了，讓下面的人誠惶誠恐，然後對同仁大聲咆哮、摔公文、人身攻擊，說你怎麼那麼豬！這個剛才有人放過了，或許大家會覺得這一分鐘的錄音聽起來還好，可是如果這個組長對他們組裡面的工作同仁天天這樣說、天天這樣罵，這裡面的人天天都要聽到組長這樣的霸凌和羞辱，情緒會好嗎？士氣會好嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：一定會影響，士氣會不好。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，你看我的公文是什麼時候發給你們的？我發給你們的公文已經一個禮拜了，這個是我發的公文，11月15日，這個事情我已經講了，你們內部有沒有人檢舉、有沒有人爆料、有沒有人陳情過？"],["邱部長泰源：今天中午疾管署會送……"],["莊署長人祥：會回應。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在問你們啊！你就在這裡回答就好了。"],["莊署長人祥：跟委員報告，應該是說，這位組長都沒有事先被申訴過，完全都沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有？那為什麼我會知道？為什麼我會出這張公文？"],["莊署長人祥：應該是說，15日在Threads上面是有人爆料。"],["林委員淑芬：當時Threads上面爆料的時候，你有沒有聽過網路上的錄音檔？"],["莊署長人祥：今天凌晨的時候……"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你本人知不知道？15日當時你知不知道？"],["莊署長人祥：15日Threads po出來當時我就知道了。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道以後怎麼處理？"],["莊署長人祥：當時我們就召開了應變會議，也……"],["林委員淑芬：應變會議是幾月幾日開？"],["莊署長人祥：15日。"],["林委員淑芬：15日當天就開。"],["莊署長人祥：當天也針對這個案子，因為他沒有一個主要的申訴……"],["林委員淑芬：他爆料之前都沒有投訴、沒有陳情，都沒有嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：完全沒有、完全沒有，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼人家沒有循正常管道？你們有沒有受不法侵害的正常SOP管道？人事行政總處有規定喔！你們有沒有訂出那個正常作業流程？"],["莊署長人祥：報告委員，我們有一個員工職場霸凌的作業辦法，的確是有……"],["林委員淑芬：你們疾管署職場霸凌的人如果出問題，哪一個機關首長……就是你嘛！"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["林委員淑芬：你要負責處理。"],["莊署長人祥：我負責。"],["林委員淑芬：都沒有人提出？"],["莊署長人祥：之前其實有另外一件，我們有按照那個程序去處理了。"],["林委員淑芬：投訴的是組長嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：不是、不是，是另外一件。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我15日就跟你們講了。"],["莊署長人祥：是。"],["林委員淑芬：但是我們希望就是，你們本來是說兩個月之後要提供調查報告，你們私底下是這樣回答我們，要兩個月喔！雖然院長現在已經下令要一個禮拜內調查好，但我也不會苛責你多久時間，因為調查報告要呈現真實、客觀、不包庇才是最重要，而不是只是求急。我再請教你，你這一份未來的行政調查報告會不會包括去問已經離職的前職員？"],["莊署長人祥：報告委員，我們今天已經開始針對離職的部分個別致電，了解他們是不是願意受訪。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道這個問題是什麼嗎？因為昨天我也詢問過勞動部勞發署的署長，因為署長本人也被人家認為有霸凌，不是只有分署長，包括蔡孟良本人都有涉及霸凌，還有副署長想要降級請調出去的。署長回答我是說，他是家庭因素，不是因為被霸凌啦！這種話都講得出來，所以我們希望你的調查報告、你的訪談對象、你的整個作業要公開透明、客觀真實、真實反映，可以嗎？"],["莊署長人祥：可以。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，這個事情我們就等你，因為這個不法侵害，對同仁的士氣打擊很大。","部長，我跟你請教我正規正辦的事情。今年年初，臺灣的環保團體「看守臺灣」公布了全球的調查報告，指出全球性環保組織「國際污染物消除網絡（IPEN）」在2022年有一個跨國的調查計畫，總共檢測17個國家、119件食品包材樣本，有64個品項驗出PFAS，測出率高達54%，而植纖餐盒，我們一般覺得植物纖維餐盒好像很棒，但是偏偏植纖餐盒檢出PFAS的濃度最高，所以環保團體「看守臺灣」就把臺灣的採樣送到IPEN去檢驗，他送了17個，最後只有8個被檢驗，他們有篩選。8個品項受驗，有7個品項被測出含有PFAS，5件的TEOF超出用來判斷是否刻意添加PFAS的丹麥標準，6件超出比丹麥標準更寬鬆的歐盟草案標準（50 ppm），換言之，8件裡面就有6件超過比較寬鬆的歐盟草案標準，PFAS的測出率和超標狀況都比國際調查計畫他們去監測其他17個國家的平均檢測值還要更嚴重。我現在要公布了，計畫包材分類說明檢測的結果，他們有公布在他們網頁，你們的署長有看過嗎？署長，你有去看過嗎？看守臺灣公布的品項，你有沒有看過？署長，沒有看過吼！"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我還沒有去看，但是……"],["林委員淑芬：你沒有看過，我跟你報告……"],["莊署長聲宏：但是PFAS這個我們會跟環境部合作進行源頭品項的……"],["林委員淑芬：來，我跟你講，我跟你報告，你沒看過，我跟你報告。防油紙袋，不要忘了臺灣人的第一餐從早餐開始，蔥油餅、蔥抓餅、餡餅、早餐袋、三明治都從防油紙袋開始的，摩斯漢堡的紅豆派紙袋、Subway的餅乾紙袋、頂呱呱的薯條紙袋，以上3件都檢測出PFAS，而且前2件，就是摩斯的和Subway的，TOF都超出歐盟草案標準，而臺灣沒有標準，各位，臺灣沒有標準，所以它不算違法。各位，對食品安全最大的疏忽和最大的縱放就是沒有任何標準，沒有標準就不違規，都不用受罰。OK，這是防油紙袋。","接下來我講微波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋，聽好了，署長，不是說你明年1月65歲要退休就要走了，你要認真做，當一天和尚敲一天鐘喔！你的部長說你會繼續做，你要認真。微波爐爆米花的內裝紙袋，7-11賣的Jolly Time微波爆米花、好市多賣的Kirkland微波爆米花，兩件都檢測出PFAS，全部超出丹麥的TOF標準（20 ppm），有一件超出較寬鬆的歐盟TOF標準。接下來是IPEN報導的，植物纖維餐盒濃度最高，結果臺灣某容器生產商的植纖餐盒檢測出PFAS，它的含量是已經最寬鬆的歐盟草案標準的57倍。再來是再生紙包材，臺灣終於有一個法規還可以，臺灣的再生紙包材是不能夠跟食品直接接觸的，也不能使用再生紙，所以這一類能收集到的、不跟食品直接接觸的，但是有風險的就是裝蛋的蛋盒。其中有兩個品項進行檢測，一個是全聯賣的「勤億是好機能蛋」，它的蛋盒檢測出PFAS，而主婦聯盟的「快樂主婦雞蛋」的蛋盒沒有檢出。部長知道PFAS的風險在哪裡嗎？部長，你有沒有聽過PFAS？它的風險在哪裡？大家已經沸沸揚揚說很久了，這幾年都在說PFAS，部長不知道，沒關係！雖然你是醫生，但是你可能不知道。這個議題很夯，不管從環境或是食品安全來講，大家討論的沸沸揚揚。"],["邱部長泰源：我知道最近都大家都有在談這個……"],["林委員淑芬：因為PFAS是工業和消費產品當中應用最廣泛的化學物質，包括防油、防水、抗污，所以它很廣泛的在利用，包括衣服上也有，連鍋具、化學消防泡沫都有，還包括防水衣料、食品包材、一次性的杯具。臺灣人喝紅茶、中午吃的便當盒、裝披薩的披薩盒、速食店的包裝及小吃攤、路邊攤所有的包材都有PFAS，農藥、相片、染劑、化妝品、保養品，以及我們在煮飯鍋具的塗層通通都有。你做衛福部部長如果不了解，確實比較不應該。"],["邱部長泰源：明年食藥署有一個計畫，我會請他們趕快……"],["林委員淑芬：現在立委來質詢了，才說明年有一個計畫。我跟你說，它是永久性的化學物質，不易被分解，是生物環境蓄積、累積性的毒物，可以遠距離的環境傳輸、具持久性，而且因為不斷累積、再累積，所以它有生物的放大性，對於陸生動物和海洋哺乳動物體內的危害及生物放大的危害非常嚴重。雖然有人去研究，光是北極熊在這麼單純的環境，早上沒有使用防油紙袋，北極熊也沒有每天喝好幾杯咖啡、紅茶，北極熊也沒有使用化妝品，也沒有暴露在那麼多的風險，都沒有！但是他們在北極熊身上檢測出PFOA的濃度，已經接近造成健康危害的暴露量。北極熊這樣就接近健康危害，我們要怎麼辦？大家每天吃便當、每天喝咖啡，怎麼辦？對人體的危害有肝臟受損、心血管疾病、甲狀腺，透過母體傳輸給胎兒，慢性腎臟病、睪丸癌等等，在這種狀況裡面，PFAS經由食品、飲用水、日常用品、空氣中的粉塵、食品包裝讓人接觸，這個是很嚴重的，它對於免疫系統、肝臟系統和甲狀腺性的功能影響很大。我不說這麼多了，我說的簡單一點，它在安全性的數據上，大部分都可以通過腸胃道吸收進入人體，人體中的濃度以血液、肝臟、腎臟較高，短鏈的PFAS容易經由尿液排除，長鏈的PFAS由糞便排除。對於人類，短鏈的估計半衰期從幾天到一個月不等；但是對於長鏈的PFAS，需要好幾年。","再來，關於飲用水裡面的PFAS濃度，因為我經常質詢環境部，他們今年8月預告飲用水水質標準終於要納管PFAS了，以確保飲用水水質安全和品質，而且今年年底就要完成公告。關於PFAS，你們的作為在哪裡？過去到現在，你們做了哪些事？"],["邱部長泰源：PFOA其實環境部已經禁用了……"],["林委員淑芬：因為PFAS是很多化合物的總稱。"],["邱部長泰源：國際間尚未訂有PFAS的……"],["林委員淑芬：你隨便說說，不要亂說！你再說清楚一點。"],["邱部長泰源：還沒有訂出限量……食品容器……但是……"],["林委員淑芬：現在只說食品容器，我唸給你聽，你說國際到現在都沒有人訂，我說給你聽。斯德哥爾摩公約在2009年起禁止生產和使用PFOS及其鹽類，因為PFAS是很多類總和的名稱，PFAS包含很多東西，而PFAS裡面的PFOS，它2009年就禁止了，2020年禁止使用PFOA，2022年起計畫要將PFHxS及其鹽類納入條約，而且在2023年要生效。2023（去）年1月，荷蘭、德國、丹麥、瑞典、挪威已經向歐洲化學管理局提交了限制提案，而且這個生效以後將禁止在消費品當中使用PFAS，它是全禁，但之前是禁了PFOS、PFOA、PFHxS，並不是沒有，而是沒有全禁而已。"],["邱部長泰源：環境部的確也禁了PFOA。"],["林委員淑芬：我在說你們。依照歐盟2023年3月的資料，歐盟執委會……"],["邱部長泰源：它禁了我們當然就不能用了。"],["林委員淑芬：歐盟是禁歐洲不能用，不是我們不能用！我們都本地生產、本地使用，我們毫無標準，連基礎調查都沒有。你們來這裡還敢說外國沒有，所以我們沒有。美國在6月，參議院通過防止食品容器受到PFAS危害法案，從今年開始，他們就禁止銷售任何含有PFAS的食品包裝。你現在還在跟我說，世界各國都沒人禁，你在「裝肖仔」！署長跟你說你就相信喔。美國今年開始就全都不能有含有PFAS的食品包裝，你不要講這麼多啦，我問你，你有沒有做過調查？至少環境部已經在112年就委託人家去調查，所有飲用水的水質和新興污染物的調查和管理計畫，他們在調查所有的水庫，已經做很久了！水庫沒有每天使用免洗紙餐盒，沒有用咖啡杯，也沒有用紙袋，結果他們抽樣發現水庫裡面的PFOA，37個樣品測值大於4奈克的占了74%；至於PFOS，13個樣品測值1公升大於4個奈克的，占抽樣26%。這是人家在測量水質，水還是從高山流下來的就這麼嚴重了！我們每天在吃的人要怎麼辦？","我最後問你，你們有沒有食品安全監測計畫？這幾年來有做過嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：請莊署長回答一下。"],["林委員淑芬：當然也沒有，你什麼都不知道！"],["邱部長泰源：有，我們有做過相關的。"],["林委員淑芬：相關的，唸給我聽。"],["莊署長聲宏：食藥署曾經在100年及112年辦過食品中PFAS的含量調查，我們大概在114年還會再做一次。"],["林委員淑芬：你把調查報告給我看。相較於水質調查，臺灣有沒有做過PFAS的食品風險評估？"],["莊署長聲宏：112年有做過。"],["林委員淑芬：你們的調查報告叫什麼名字？我講風險評估，但剛剛是講監測計畫調查報告，這是兩件事！"],["莊署長聲宏：這個是叫食品中持久性有機污染物全氟烷基化合物之調查及風險評估。"],["林委員淑芬：好，調查報告送來，調查完成了喔。歐盟2022年發布了2022/1431規章，建議成員國和食品業應該在2022到2025間監測食品中的這些PFAS家族，監測期間如果發現蔬果、蕈類、乳品及嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度時，要進一步調查原因。請問你們這個計畫裡面有沒有同時跟上？如果你發現蔬果、蕈類、乳品、嬰兒食品含量高於指定濃度的時候，你要進一步調查為什麼，污染的風險來源是什麼，原因在哪裡，你們有沒有這樣子做？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我們會在114年這個計畫中來做。"],["林委員淑芬：好。你們還執行一個食品中污染物質及毒素劑包裝容器器具的檢驗方法開發和精進研究，你們剛剛講的是，你們研究的是這些持久性的化學物品對人的影響，我現在講的是臺灣各種食品安全監測的研究有沒有？沒有。你們有一個食品中污染物質在包裝容器上的PFAS的風險評估有沒有？沒有，因為你們講的是檢驗方法、開發和精進研究，結果2022年做的要2025年才公布，2023年、2024年都有做，結果你們到2025、2026、2027年才要公布，你的期中報告各送一份到我們辦公室來，可以嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：可以。"],["林委員淑芬：期中報告喔，不是到final的。"],["莊署長聲宏：好，可以。"],["林委員淑芬：所以我要要求食品安全監測計畫，我不是講持久性PFAS的物質對人體的風險而已，臺灣各種食品，臺灣環境裡面或是各種包裝，相關監測計畫要做長期、全面性的監測，你了解問題有多嚴重，才知道要怎麼管制和解決，你可以不做，但不做的前提是全部都管制，直接禁止使用，你有辦法嗎？部長，你如果沒有做監測計畫，不了解問題多嚴重，你比照美國全面禁用，可以嗎？PFAS有辦法全面禁用嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，食安是我們這幾年來最重要的一個工作，一定要把它做到最好，所以委員所提示、指教的，我們馬上來進行。"],["林委員淑芬：我是要問你，如果來不及的話不然就全部禁用，食品容器、食品包裝全部禁用PFAS，有辦法馬上全禁嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們馬上來研議。"],["林委員淑芬：研議喔，研議同時要做全面性的調查。"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然，保護國人的食品安全是我們最重要的責任。"],["林委員淑芬：各種食品包裝還有食物上的PFAS的風險。"],["邱部長泰源：好，都會包括，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}},{"id":"157315","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157315","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375274a657569d1056a67f9c834d54a4e02c64aaf8aafe3010cc1445c6f97c71b35d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:21:56 - 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，但是我看到了啊，過去國發會……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：「大國發會」是媒體下的標題，不是我個人的意見，這個我還是要澄清一下。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是你個人的意見？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是，那是媒體下標。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我看到的是，現在行政院經濟發展委員會下面有3個：創新經濟、均衡臺灣、包容成長，把原本的國發會一分為三耶！是不是？你只是三分之一而已耶！還有其他兩個耶！對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在是以互補的方式在進行，還是可以有很多不同的意見，讓我們來做更好的改善，實際執行還是在國發會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：認真看起來，我認為國發會的功能性已經不如過去了嘛！是不是？過去永續會的淨零碳排現在已經移到總統府去了啊，對不對？那國發會呢？國發會現在進行的就是相關的基礎建設嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的工作內容還是沒有變，因為執行還是要到部會，所以我們還是在部會上面。上面只是從政策的引導給我們一些指導，但是整個執行面還是在部會之間，所以我們原來的功能並沒有消失，還是在執行中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝謝衣鳯委員，時間掌握得分秒不差。"],["謝委員衣鳯：希望你不要生氣。"],["主席：我也沒生氣，我只是……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們都是為了你。"],["主席：萬萬不要這麼說，是為了國家。","下一位質詢請陳超明委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-16","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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Taiwan to the World就是希望把台灣帶給世界但是其實在台灣帶給世界的時候最近的這些爭議從10月17號美國導演他特別在台灣 Undaunted"},{"start":29.118,"end":57.446,"text":"主持人說台灣Plus堅持要用閩南,不知道這個原因是不是可以來做一下說明,事後是不是已經有跟導演來說已經調整修正,那針對這個導演他所說的到底是台灣Plus堅持用閩南,還是導演自己本身的一些口誤,或者是在事後沒有修正,這個部分怎麼說明?好,我請那個朱信長跟您報告。"},{"start":58.871,"end":74.005,"text":"好委員,這個導演他表示這個是他自己的口誤,那麼在事後也跟我們溝通過在做更好的修正以後才會再上架,那目前這個內容他不會是原來那個台灣保险,他可能用台灣閩南跨埠代理這樣的方式來呈現,請諮詢專家的意見。"},{"start":76.567,"end":104.501,"text":"好那當然這個爭議不只這一樁還包含我們看得到的就是另外一個節目這個也是在YouTube上面其實也是被大家這個多所質疑啦既然是要介紹特別介紹台灣的珍奶文化為什麼還要特別跑到這個原住民的部落然後請這些孩子們穿上他們自己傳統的服裝但是整個所有的內容其實跟他們的原住民的語言或只是他們要介紹的文化"},{"start":105.081,"end":132.607,"text":"adequate 相關性都沒有那這個部分當然我們也也收到了這樣子的一個訊息啦吼那另外呢還包含這個11月8號那當然這個臺灣普拉斯做了一系列的這個美國大選的一些報導那我想呢這個用字哦飛輪這個用字其實當然也不是只有臺灣普拉斯用到啦吼其他的包含這個加拿大的公視或者是在這個澳洲的公視或者是美國的公視其實他們也都曾經用過這個"},{"start":133.507,"end":152.79,"text":""},{"start":153.23,"end":168.194,"text":"厲我們的目標預期似乎還是有一些落後甚至在這個地區的部分好像亞洲的觀看率還是高於其他的歐美的國家那這個部分我們要怎麼樣來追趕?跟委員報告那因為這過去兩年我們確實報導很多亞太地區的議題跟台灣相關那麼亞洲的觀眾近戰來看的人數確實佔一點比例"},{"start":176.596,"end":192.978,"text":"閱讀﹗"},{"start":193.018,"end":219.238,"text":"好 我們加油好不好真的是把台灣帶給世界好 那另外其實我還想問一下就是我們部長的部分就是這個是新聞的部分那文化部的共諜案我想之後可能要再更謹慎因為這個共諜案其實是跟一個台商叫芳祥有關的那這個議審呢是遭判五年四個月那同時涉案的呢還有這個文化部的蒙藏文化中心的蒙式科研這個陳德門博焱"},{"start":221.34,"end":249.735,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":249.855,"end":269.47,"text":"adequate to this, do we have a more in-depth review for this part?謝謝委員的這個題目。剛剛那個共諜案他得到的資料不是由文化部內部的環境跟資訊取得。那我們目前有三項作為,一個就是在現行法令我們強化"},{"start":270.691,"end":297.688,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":297.848,"end":304.992,"text":"adequate to the requirement of the rights of the rightful owner."},{"start":315.859,"end":316.199,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":335.259,"end":349.708,"text":"好那剛剛其實培育委員有特別提到就是我們在兒少節目的部分那上個會期其實我們也特別都有在針對兒少的自治的節目其實我們都非常非常的關心那我先講一般的兒少節目兒童節目其實製作是非常難度非常的高我想這也是我們自己本身曾經在這個影視文化產業當中其實大家都有一個共識"},{"start":360.934,"end":386.087,"text":"但是呢很辛苦的就是在兒童節目兒少節目的製作的成本之低齁這個我相信也是其來有質齁那包含一個節目如果含棚含布景扣掉了一些硬體還要包含他的後製還要包含他的動畫其實真的一級的預算我所熟知的一個製作人他製作兒童節目大概將近快要超過10年以上的一個時間了"},{"start":387.108,"end":406.203,"text":""},{"start":406.766,"end":426.903,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":427.344,"end":427.844,"text":"議員剛才問到一個很關鍵的問題就是台灣不曉得為什麼"},{"start":442.964,"end":460.729,"text":" bicyn 連續這1、20年已經沒有人在做兒少節目,因爲他擺的頻道跟時段是沒有廣告的。因爲他沒有製作單位,他已經沒有製作單位可以生存,都是買現成的。因爲他沒有製作單位,他已經沒有製作單位可以生存,都是買現成的。因爲他沒有製作單位,他已經沒有製作單位可以生存,都是買現成的。因爲他沒有製作單位,他已經沒有製作單位可以生存,都是買現成的。因爲他沒有製作單位,他已經沒有製作單位可以生存,都是買現成的。因爲他沒有製作單位,他已經沒有製作單位可以生存,都是買現成的。因爲他沒有製作單位,他已經"},{"start":471.032,"end":472.553,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":491.203,"end":509.633,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":509.753,"end":532.406,"text":"我們現在這一個月來已經訪問了好幾家的這個MSO的業者那他們都願意來配合現在正在協調評位的部分所以應該明年渴望第一季可以達成共識就可以定評了明年第一季就是好那大概會是在定評在哪一個區塊是在跟所有的兒童台或者是卡通台在一起嗎還是"},{"start":533.827,"end":558.643,"text":"現在還需要就是幾家MSO共同來確認那我們近期還會再繼續拜訪第二次所以會在他們做確認因為這個是他們比較商業機制那他們有幾個可以釋出的品位目前正在積極的協調當中好如果有更進一步的消息麻煩先讓我知道好嗎因為我相信很多人都在找小公司在哪裡我找不到啊我們這麼好的節目我們去挪威去了兩次欸"},{"start":559.884,"end":560.685,"text":"最後一個部分請教文化部長"},{"start":568.479,"end":596.334,"text":"部長昨天在財政委員會的聯席委員會上面其實這個我對您的回答其實相當的有點覺得遺憾因為我們特別提到所謂的這個文資的部分雖然經濟部他說這個礦坑和美礦坑確定已經是關閉了那也確定裡頭其實真的沒有辦法再做修復他給我的回答是這樣文化部應該要跳出來啊文化部不是應該是我們的主管機關是文資的主管機關嗎"},{"start":599.217,"end":625.1,"text":"議長,你怎麼沒有跳出來說我們負責這個部分我們把它敦促這個經濟部跟農業部一起我們來修復它難道就要眼睜睜的看著這已經被列為是歷史文化建物逐漸消失逐漸凋零禮拜二的時候我要去看這個和美礦坑文化部長要表態嗎我要表態不過在表態之前文資局局長跟你講一下"},{"start":626.93,"end":645.601,"text":"委員我想大家也關切這個案子我們文字局來我們來協調啦雖然說這個對因為現在地方的文化團體其實他們已經在支持喔只是說我們怎麼在公立公私立的協力合作我們來復甦這個部分讓它成為當地的一個真的歷史的建物可以保留可以火化"},{"start":646.081,"end":675.232,"text":"是,一樣的狀況就是說這個案子的因為它是歷史建築的話它的文資的主管機關是在地方政府那它的管理機關也是在那個林保署那邊我想我們中央主管機關我們願意來協調好,我想文化部必須要扛起這個角色啦那以免我們的這個文化遺產可能真的一個一個關閉然後就講了就沒有了沒有辦法再做活化沒有辦法再做保存我們怎麼跟我們的下一代交代啊"},{"start":675.939,"end":696.215,"text":"我們第一步我剛才跟委員講說我先把它列入我們的文化部在掌管的文化路徑它是個礦業路徑那也靠近新店碧潭那一帶我會希望用我們的方式先把它因為它是具有歷史性它是具有地方性跟特殊性先列入我們文化部自己可以做的部分"},{"start":696.875,"end":696.895,"text":"閱讀委員會議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時15分）謝謝主席。有請李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長早安。TaiwanPlus的問題，我相信前面應該已經討論很多了，爭議不斷，我想TaiwanPlus的精神是Bringing Taiwan to the World，就是希望把臺灣帶給世界，但是其實在臺灣帶給世界的時候，最近的這些爭議，從10月17號美國導演他特別在Taiwan Undaunted這個節目當中，他說TaiwanPlus堅持要用Minan（閩南），不知道這個原因是不是可以來做一下說明？那事後是不是已經有跟導演來說已經調整修正？針對這個導演他所說的，到底是TaiwanPlus堅持用Minan？還是導演自己本身的口誤？且事後沒有修正？這個部分怎麼說明？"],["李部長遠：我請執行長跟你報告。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["余執行長佳璋：報告委員，這個導演他表示，這個是他自己的口誤，那麼在事後也跟我們溝通過，再做更好的修正以後才會再上架。目前這個內容它不會是原來那個Taiwan Hokkien，他可能用Taiwan Minan（台語）這樣的方式來呈現，也會徵詢專家的意見。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，當然這個爭議不只這一樁，還包含我們看得到的就是另外一個節目，這個也是在YouTube上面，其實也是被大家多所質疑。既然是要特別介紹臺灣的珍奶文化，為什麼還要特別跑到原住民的部落，然後請這些孩子們穿上他們自己傳統的服裝？但整個內容，其實跟他們原住民的語言或者是他們要介紹的文化是一點相關性都沒有，這個部分當然我們也收到了這樣子的訊息。另外還包含11月8號，TaiwanPlus做了一系列美國大選的一些報導，那我想felon這個用字，其實也不是只有TaiwanPlus用到，其他包含加拿大的公視，或者是澳洲的公視，或者美國的公視，其實他們也都曾經用過這個名詞，只是我們還是必須更謹慎、更小心，這個部分我想還是要提醒大家。"],["余執行長佳璋：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛有特別提到這個TaiwanPlus，其實每年我們都編列了大概將近10億的經費，但是目前下載的次數離我們的預期目標似乎還是有一些落後，甚至在地區的部分，好像亞洲的觀看率還是高於其他的歐美國家，這部分我們要怎麼樣來追趕？"],["余執行長佳璋：跟委員報告，因為過去兩年，我們確實報導很多亞太地區的議題跟臺灣相關，亞洲的觀眾進站來看的人數確實占一定的比例。不過我們最近也在開始開發，就是對於歐洲或大洋洲、非洲等地，看看可不可以用其他的語言，比方說法語、西班牙語或阿拉伯語等等，在自動字幕翻譯生成的過程當中，讓他們能夠更容易來看我們的節目，而不會只受英語的限制。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們加油好不好？真的是把臺灣帶給世界。另外，其實我還想問一下部長，這個是新聞的部分，即文化部共諜案。我想之後可能要再更謹慎，因為這個共諜案其實是跟一個叫方翔的臺商有關，一審是遭判5年4個月，同時涉案的還有文化部蒙藏文化中心的蒙事科員陳德門博彥，他被移送懲戒法院，現在是判他免職，可以上訴。我想針對強化文化部員工的教育跟意識的提升，特別是防止滲透，因為文化還滿容易被滲透，甚至也滿容易被洩密。這件事已經在文化部發生，現在文化部有沒有針對這部分做更嚴謹的檢討？"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員的這個題目。剛剛那個共諜案得到的資料不是由文化部內部的環境和資訊取得，我們目前有三項作為：第一個，我們在現行法令強化人員赴中國港澳的宣導及措施訓練教育，我們加強這個部分，不過我們最近這幾年去的人很少。第二個，我們本部的資訊安全管理，包括人員安全、風險管理、資訊安全管理，這個部分均要求大家遵守規則，還有教育訓練及人員權責明確分工，以確保授權人的授權。第三個，加密和資安的觀念，加密的意思是辦理機密公文的時候，在保密環境中直接辦理核判，我們進行這三項加強。"],["郭委員昱晴：這其實是一個警惕，文化部對於人員不管是教育或安全上的顧慮，或在安全堅守的立場，這個部分文化部還要再更加的加強。","剛剛陳培瑜委員有特別提到兒少節目的部分，上個會期其實我們都非常關心，特別是針對兒少自製節目。我先講一般的兒少節目、兒童節目其實製作難度非常高，我本身曾經在影視文化產業當中，大家都有這個共識，但是很辛苦的是在兒童節目、兒少節目的製作成本之低，我相信也是其來有自。一個節目含棚、含布景扣掉了一些硬體，再包含後製、動畫，其實一集的預算，我所熟知的製作人製作兒童節目將近快要超過10年以上時間，扣掉這些重要的固定支出和成本，其實人事的部分所剩無幾。但是現在我們看到比方像科學類比的部分，可能一集的預算成本會稍微比較高，但是實境紀錄片的話一集只有15萬。你知道在實境節目中這個孩子要與導演培養感情，導演要特別花更多的時間去跟他培養感情。如果國家沒有重視兒少節目的部分，我們把經費全部都集中在某一些的資源上，其他的電視臺總不能用電視臺去跟電視臺申請吧，我不曉得身為部長的你怎麼看兒少節目的困境？"],["李部長遠：其實委員剛剛問到一個關鍵，就是臺灣不曉得為什麼連續這一、二十年，已經沒有人在做兒少節目，因為它擺的頻道和時段是沒有廣告的。"],["郭委員昱晴：十多年來兒童節目大概只有三分之一，其中90%又是買來的片子。"],["李部長遠：對，因為它沒有製作單位。"],["郭委員昱晴：自製只有8%不到。"],["李部長遠：已經沒有製作單位可以生存，都是買現成的。所以當我們有小公視以後，我們面臨的第一個問題就是：誰來拍這些節目？每個節目需要很長的時間去呼籲，我是不是請小公視的負責人來報告？"],["郭委員昱晴：講到小公視，我也想要問，其實當初小公視的節目開播記者會，我也有特別到現場，那時候我們也非常樂見，我們花了很多的時間、花了很多的成本想要經營這一塊，目前定頻最後的進度到底在哪裡？因為我們看到小公視其實有的是擺在八十幾、九十幾、一百多、兩百多，我轉不到。如果我們的製作成本是這麼高、節目是這麼優質，這麼好的兒少節目，我居然看不到的時候，請問我們的定頻什麼時候才能確定？"],["徐總經理秋華：我們在這一個月來已經訪問了好幾家的MSO業者，他們都願意配合，現在正在協調頻位的部分，所以應該明年可望第一季可以達成共識，就可以定頻了。"],["郭委員昱晴：明年第一季就是……"],["徐總經理秋華：1月或3月。"],["郭委員昱晴：大概會定頻在哪一個區塊？是跟所有的兒童臺或是卡通臺在一起嗎？"],["徐總經理秋華：現在還需要幾家MSO共同來確認，我們近期還會再繼續拜訪第二次，會再跟他們做確認。因為這是他們的商業機制，他們有幾個可以釋出的頻位，我們目前正在積極的協調當中。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有更進一步的消息麻煩先讓我知道，好嗎？"],["徐總經理秋華：好的。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我相信很多人都在找小公視在哪裡，我找不到啊！這麼好的節目，我們去了挪威兩次，據我所知，把外景整個拉到挪威去，對不對？","最後一個部分，請教一下文化部長，昨天在財政委員會的聯席委員會上面，其實我對你的回答覺得有點遺憾，特別是提到所謂的文資部分。雖然經濟部說和美礦坑已經確定關閉了，也確定裡頭真的沒有辦法再做修復，它給我的回答是這樣，文化部應該要跳出來啊！文化部不是我們文資的主管機關嗎？部長，你怎麼沒有跳出來說我們負責這個部分，我們敦促經濟部和農業部一起來修復它？難道就要眼睜睜地看著已經被列為歷史文化的建物逐漸消失、逐漸凋零嗎？禮拜二我要去看和美礦坑，文化部長要表態嗎？"],["李部長遠：我要表態，不過在表態之前，請文資局局長跟你講一下。"],["陳局長濟民：大家也關切這個案子，文資局會來協調。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為現在地方的文化團體其實已經在支持，只是我們怎麼在公私立的協力合作下來復甦這個部分，讓它真的成為當地的歷史建物，可以保留、可以活化。"],["陳局長濟民：一樣的狀況，這個案子是歷史建築，它的文資主管機關是在地方政府，它的管理機關則是林保署，我們中央主管機關願意來協調。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想文化部必須要扛起這個角色，以免我們的文化遺產可能真的一個一個關閉，然後就沒有了，沒有辦法再做活化、沒有辦法再做保存，我們怎麼跟我們的下一代交代，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：我剛才跟其他委員講過，我先把它列入文化部掌管的文化路徑，它是個礦業路徑，也靠近新店碧潭那一帶，我會希望用我們的方式先把它列入屬於……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為它是具有歷史性，它是具有地方性和特殊性，它不是選擇性的。"],["李部長遠：先列入我們文化部自己可以做的部分，就是文化路徑，另外是文化基地，我們在附近尋找一個可以繼續發展文化，從點到線到面，我們主動來做這個。"],["郭委員昱晴：你們是主管機關，後續要怎麼樣招商、怎麼樣做公私協力，我們一起讓它文化復甦，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","接下來有請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157313","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157313","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637526e528517e7aaa243ed5a0382e2f733d964aaf8aafe3010cc71a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:05:48 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告,我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣,好署長你同意次長這樣認知嗎是,同意好,我們現在看好,但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊、查緝這些四連移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊"},{"start":159.358,"end":186.647,"text":"要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對 有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個"},{"start":188.058,"end":210.436,"text":"市長,你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎?總共齁,前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對,就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢,又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛,市長"},{"start":211.497,"end":239.433,"text":"行政院在很慷慨我現在請問跟次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關 有"},{"start":240.794,"end":264.868,"text":"後來呢我問到了自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關及GATE進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座的建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求又減低了嗎?有了自動通關是不是你們人力壓力就減低了?"},{"start":266.108,"end":291.566,"text":"我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之下我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力這麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是嘛要減輕嘛所以我要告訴你啦市長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊還減少多少還減少29個啊還減少19個啊"},{"start":295.748,"end":308.175,"text":"你覺得專心的人力市長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足好那我現在告訴你要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了對不對"},{"start":310.556,"end":333.045,"text":"現在呢 我要向你們 你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證 集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額 要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合 外勤集合沒辦法用AI 沒辦法用人工智慧取代的 你同意嗎報告委員我們同意 我們回去會檢討的OK了 謝謝 署長請回我們請看下一頁好 現在我們來講詐騙"},{"start":338.953,"end":367.94,"text":"不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁"},{"start":368.962,"end":385.155,"text":"其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易"},{"start":386.092,"end":409.9,"text":"被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎"},{"start":417.04,"end":433.573,"text":"市長是不是這樣子報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對好所以怎麼辦呢我們看一下有沒有機制可以不按眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒有辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒有辦法用交易的洗房法納管"},{"start":434.831,"end":459.586,"text":"沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗防法納管,速發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊!副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦!素產署啦!你們部長支持用洗防法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需洗防法納管"},{"start":461.052,"end":489.43,"text":"你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到 次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有?"},{"start":491.759,"end":501.25,"text":"報告報委員洗防法是法務部主管不是我不說洗防法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看"},{"start":502.438,"end":530.866,"text":"第三方支付輪為博弈的網站詐騙集團的幫兇怎麼說呢?水房用人頭公司用假文件匯換合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務有一個量能登錄對不對?速發部是不是這樣子?那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防治洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的動作堵起來?有了嗎?為什麼還是可以?"},{"start":533.867,"end":555.019,"text":"這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三職業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看"},{"start":558.334,"end":576.807,"text":"數法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的"},{"start":578.234,"end":599.359,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定呢只要這些人員 第三分之二人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗房防治洗錢防治服務量能登記就不得提供第三分之五請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎 次長你知道嗎報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下"},{"start":607.748,"end":628.867,"text":"第三方支付是訴發部：對：對啊所以到現在行政院、內政部、訴發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以呢訴發部有預告了喔第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的處理辦法草案有沒有訴發部有沒有是告訴你們的副署長有沒有"},{"start":629.207,"end":645.402,"text":"我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那母法是不是升內政部管的"},{"start":646.465,"end":673.476,"text":"母法是內政部給的?是你嘛 次長一直很用力點頭嘛是是是他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來 次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條 德第5條 德第6條 德7、8、9都是德德德德德次長 就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫德是什麼意思也可以不做啊有沒有強制力"},{"start":674.676,"end":695.436,"text":"次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟書發部確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦書發部可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們會不會是得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊"},{"start":696.643,"end":716.414,"text":"報告委員 因為我們關於這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了喔 說得好 講到重點了 次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德 我們趕快要看來看一下專法是什麼"},{"start":717.715,"end":740.795,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持蘇花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦"},{"start":746.088,"end":769.895,"text":"這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化他的執行來 那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊 要怎麼辦呢他說第一項 他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長 你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰"},{"start":773.505,"end":788.874,"text":"我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進"},{"start":797.742,"end":802.927,"text":"你點頭要嘛是不是好對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛那法務部部長、政部長35條這裡面你們有責任嘛對不對"},{"start":813.826,"end":841.936,"text":"我們會協助那個那個數發部跟那個內政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有能不能有有效的管理這張置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們今天在這裡關心打詐司法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛"},{"start":843.092,"end":867.88,"text":"法務部要不要幫助數位發展部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用數位發展部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部、警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論"},{"start":869.472,"end":890.706,"text":"請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎?"},{"start":892.332,"end":919.32,"text":"都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們的部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下的執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎"},{"start":920.458,"end":923.287,"text":"好 可以了 謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長 謝謝大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":975,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時6分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體的記者女士先生。先請內政部的馬次長、鐘署長，還有數發部的陳副署長，後面再請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：馬次長、鐘署長、陳副署長、鄭部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在開始之前先謝謝召委，但還是要跟召委表達一下，因為在這次我們打詐當中，數發部相當重要，我也知道以我們委員會的慣例，非本委員會的部會首長大概是不會來，所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受，但是數發部竟然只來了副署長，我也知道他目前是數位產業署的代理署長，沒邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜。"],["主席：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不然待會的質詢，以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回復，這點跟召委表達一下。"],["主席：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個議題這麼重要，打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法，也不是靠法務部而已，還是要靠數發部。"],["主席：是，謝謝鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那接下來我就開始我的質詢了。我今天的質詢要先從另外一個主題「移工管理優先補足專勤人力」開始；打詐的部分是「犯罪溯源洗防法應納管平台」。我們先來看一下，請教次長，你認為移工的管理是不是臺灣的重要課題？馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：非常重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你看，目前移工大概跟犯罪有兩個關聯，一個是移工本身，尤其是失聯移工，他可能是犯罪者下手的對象，但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的犯罪者，你同意嗎？"],["馬次長士元：完全同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於這些失聯移工，為什麼他們很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢？因為「失聯」的意思就是逃避主管機關的查緝對不對？所以他就進入了地下，通訊也是、匯兌也是，請問就你評估目前移民署專勤隊的外勤查緝業務，有多少可以透過AI取代？又有多少一定要用有經驗的人才可以？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以沒有辦法用AI取代，除非是後台的資料分析？"],["馬次長士元：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：署長同意次長這樣的認知嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們也看到移民署不是只有專勤隊查緝這些失聯移工，還包括旅客的運量持續遽增，要請國境大隊增加員額。包括在111年行政院核增給桃園國際機場30個人，有沒有？你們這30個人都補足了嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：這個是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有補足？有給你員額，不代表有補足啊！次長，你要注意，行政院對你們好，但有沒有補足我不知道。"],["鐘署長景琨：應該是約僱人力……"],["鍾委員佳濱：疫後又給你們……你們又要求職僱，為什麼這次是職僱？因為你們有的要用僱員，要增加68個。次長，你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：總共前面給的30個是兩年期的，有期限性的約僱人力；後面給的30個是正職。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是我簡報後面寫的嘛！在今年2月5日又同意增加30個人，而且是全數同意。馬次長，行政院這樣很慷慨，表示行政院非常支持移民署的業務。"],["鐘署長景琨：是第一階段我們跟他請增……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我現在問次長，你來看一下，次長，我關心你們第四代的自動通關系統，為什麼？因為全國的國際主要機場在通關的人別驗證上，大量使用數位化的智能機關取代，今年3月的時候我問副署長有沒有加強自動通關？有。後來我問到，自動通關的進度怎麼樣，內政部卻不知怎麼回答。次長，你知道目前第四代自動通關設備（e-Gate）進度如何？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們目前已經完成43座的建置。"],["鍾委員佳濱：43座，多久能夠全部建置完成？"],["馬次長士元：明年底之前。"],["鍾委員佳濱：建置完成之後，你們人力的需求壓力就減低了嘛？有了自動通關，是不是你們人力的壓力就減低了？"],["鐘署長景琨：跟委員報告，這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之前，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在不是問你108年，這些自動化的通關機器設備給你了，如果壓力沒有減輕，我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢？"],["鐘署長景琨：是，是可以減輕一部分，我可以這樣回答。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要告訴你，次長，你看一下，我們在2021年有66萬個移工，到現在有75萬個，但是我們專勤隊的人力還減少19個，次長，你覺得專勤隊的人力這樣夠嗎？"],["馬次長士元：大量不足。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我現在告訴你要做個決斷，因為行政院不是聖誕老公公，你們要多少就有多少，現在已經給移民署增加60個了，對不對？你回去要檢討一下，如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境驗證稽核人力的壓力，給你的這60個員額要設法去補強移民署專勤隊現場稽核、外勤稽核，這些沒辦法用AI、沒辦法用人工智慧取代的，你同意嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們同意，我們回去會檢討這個部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以了，謝謝，署長請回。","現在我們來講詐騙，不只用點數詐騙洗錢，還有未成年的性剝削，我們看到有什麼呢？我再舉例給你看，數位部數發署副署長請上來，要儲值直播平臺的點數，消費達一定的金額才能外出見面；遊戲點數利用未成年來洗錢，未成年受到兒少的保護；用虛擬的點數進行性影像的滿足。","部長、次長，請你看一下，因為我前面問過你，違法金流用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡？我們的點數商要KYC，它對誰KYC？被害者，就是付錢的人，他去買點數；另外，違法交易的人，他知道這個不行。他在創意私房要去交易，被害者，我們這樣稱呼，他覺得他做的是合法的事情，他買合法的點數；違法交易的人，他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道，他去買遊戲點數，這些點數商都知道，但是進入了直播平臺、進入了創意私房的網路平臺，犯罪分子用人頭去做接收，你覺得KYC，K的到嗎？K不到嘛！它能知道遊戲點數轉移給誰嗎？次長，是不是這樣子？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個都轉到境外去了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以怎麼辦呢？我們看一下有沒有機制可以處理，今年10月我在交通委員會問了數發部部長，我問，以點數在平臺上沒辦法追蹤之交易，我們用洗防法納管，數發部支持嗎？部長說，支持啊！副署長，你們是數產署，你們部長支持用洗防法納管平臺這些無法追蹤交易的點數，結果你們給我的答復是什麼？在現有的網路平臺進行點數交易，已現有的機制就可以處理，不須以洗防法納管。你們可以要求具點數交易的網路平臺及直播平臺確實執行KYC，來防止詐騙、洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎？你們做得到嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們會努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會努力就是做不到，次長，洗防法當中的查緝、犯罪防制是不是你們在管的？你們這個法令有沒有給數發部去管這些詐騙的金流？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，洗防法是法務部主管。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我不是說洗防法，我是說詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，是你們管的嘛？"],["馬次長士元：是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理，我給你看，第三方支付淪為博弈網站、詐團洗錢的幫兇，怎麼說呢？水房集團用人頭公司、用假文件偽裝成合法生意去交易，這些都用第三方支付，但是第三方支付服務機構有一個能量登錄，對不對？數發部是不是這樣子？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法，有沒有辦法找到方法把這個監理上的漏洞堵起來？有了嘛！為什麼還是可以？"],["陳副署長慧敏：這個部分如果有監管上面的問題，其實我們一直希望它能夠儘量不會有，所以我們做了很多的行政檢查、行政調查，目前也是鼓勵三支的業者成立公會，我們要做公私聯防。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙，黃署長，請過來幫次長。數發部說，第三方支付是屬於類特許行業，次長，你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個不了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業，第三方支付是類特許行業，特許行業是金管會管的，因此詐欺犯罪危害防制條例在今年7月公布後我們就授權了，裡面規定只要這些第三方支付人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗錢防制、服務能量登記，就不得提供第三方支付。請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個，次長，你知道嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個部分應該是在金管會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：數發部回答一下。"],["陳副署長慧敏：第三方支付是數發部主管。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！到現在行政院、內政部、數發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚，所以數發部預告了「第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶認定及控管措施處理辦法」草案，數發部，有沒有？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是，我們其實非常感謝有打詐四法，因為有賦予我們任務，我們會依據打詐四法裡面其中兩個法案，針對第三方的部分我們有訂定一些子法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：母法是不是內政部給的？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長一直很用力點頭嘛！他們給你權力，你有沒有用？次長，你看一下它怎麼用？這是目前數發部定出來的草案，第四條「得」，第五條「得」，第六條「得」，第七、八、九條都是「得」、「得」、「得」，次長，就你所知道，如果你的母法給它授權，它的子法寫「得」是什麼意思？也可以不做啊！有沒有強制力？次長，你覺得這樣的子法有沒有強制力？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個我們回去跟數發部確認一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然這不是你的業管範疇，數發部可不可以告訴次長，內政部這麼的支持，授權它的主管法令給你們，你們為什麼是寫「得」、「得」、「得」？"],["黃簡任視察國源：委員好，有關於……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們今天沒有次長來，你們很吃虧啊！"],["黃簡任視察國源：報告委員，我們相關的子法預告中是「得」的部分，有一些部分是因為我們打詐專法母法裡面就已經是寫「得」了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：說得好，講到重點了，次長有沒有聽到？你們的打詐專法，上位法的授權是用「得」，我們來看一下專法是什麼？詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第三十四條規定，第三方支付服務業者對客戶應盡善良管理人之注意義務，應強化確認客戶身分，並得採取對客戶身分持續審查、延後撥款、拒絕建立業務關係或提供服務等管控措施。次長，有沒有發現問題了？你很支持數發部，他們怎麼能定「得」？因為母法就是「得」啊！怎麼辦？7月底剛公布的，怎麼辦？"],["馬次長士元：這個部分我們跟數發部設法來強化它的執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法務部長，要請你來了，第三十五條要怎麼辦呢？第三十五條第三項規定「由數位經濟相關產業主管機關」，這應該就是數發署或者數發部，「會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之」。部長，你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會持續跟數發部就第三方支付……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要做結論了，因為上位法的制定行政院很積極，我們立法院也很努力去審議，在很短的時間內通過，但是通過之後發現有沒有不足？部長，有沒有不足？有不足嘛！次長，你們這個法要不要繼續精進？你點頭表示要嘛！是不是？對著麥克風說，我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，是不是這樣？要不要精進？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們滾動式來修正。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，要精進嘛！法務部鄭部長，第三十五條你們有責任，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會協助數發部跟內政部來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為上位法的制定，前述的處理辦法能不能很好的管理第三方支付業呢？如果不行，要怎麼調適？所以我們今天在這裡關心打詐，四法通過了，法過了不是就沒事了，法上面還有一些不足的地方，實務上數發部做不到嘛！它只能「得」，因為上位法只有「得」，法務部要幫助數發部來研擬怎麼補漏好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們來協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，這樣你知道原因了沒有？法是你主管的，你們內政部主管的，用是誰在用？數發部要去做事前的一些規管，然後內政部警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候，循線從網路平台的洗錢去追蹤金流，才有辦法抓到，是不是這樣子？好，最後的結論，請研議防止透過具點數交易的網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案，這個要幾個單位來弄，內政部主導好不好？內政部可不可以？"],["馬次長士元：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛！那法務部跟數發部一起加入可不可以？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月內可以嗎？都點頭、都可以，副署長回去告訴你們部長，我問過，他在交通委員會承諾我，你們底下的人說不用，到底是誰聽誰的，回去檢討一下，今天次長沒有來，我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了，還是底下的執行機關認為無所謂，這個要是發生在法務部，鄭部長就慘了，發生在內政部，劉部長就辛苦了，所以我希望這個事情，數發部要好好地跟內政部跟法務部來配合，可以嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，好，謝謝，謝謝部長、次長跟副署長，謝謝大家。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時21分）","繼續開會（11時31分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來我們請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157311","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157311","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375251170f047314c9eb36af624ec870174964aaf8aafe3010cc0c38360a1b553cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:11:02 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邀請主委請言主委楊委員好主委好 主委總統先生昨天下令霸凌的這個事件那要求所有的行政部門公部門一週之內全面的去"},{"start":29.781,"end":31.283,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":52.885,"end":53.846,"text":"兵輔導委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":80.7,"end":105.937,"text":"只要農家自己本身農民北北他們等於自己管理自己各種方式我們就是防範這些不合理的一些管教事件發生這是你本身身體力行在做那醫院呢因為在退伍會你是農民醫院的主管機關那醫院呢醫院同樣的醫院的血汗醫護的這個議題護病筆的這個議題"},{"start":109.95,"end":125.629,"text":"委員呼併筆跟委員報告我們所有的榮業我們公職的醫生的比例我們是符合相關規定我們現在才缺0.4那總共衛護部比例大概是12%我們是低於這個比例的所以我們人力沒有問題"},{"start":129.332,"end":153.024,"text":"三班護兵比全域我們也沒問題我們16所容家容院都是合乎相關規定的問題就是在夜班還有幾所容院是比較比例是沒到達那個標準那我們現在就努力就是在做招募然後薪資待遇的調整各容院我們由總院都在做管控"},{"start":153.854,"end":172.256,"text":"因為有了這個事件我們還是要警惕血案醫務已經在民間有印象印記在尤其特別像懷孕的護理人員醫師也好我們都要特別照顧因為血案醫務"},{"start":173.357,"end":173.497,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":194.887,"end":209.985,"text":"勞動部公告僱主給僱傅的勞工工資計算方式至分鐘為止沒有滿一小時的要算一小時即使你做30分鐘也要算一小時"},{"start":213.967,"end":235.333,"text":"在目前為止我們的計算方式你包括了你16間的這個農總體系的醫療機構以及我們的農民之家跟農場這些的加班費是不是還是依照對不對還是依照一個鐘頭他未滿一個鐘頭還是算一個鐘頭我們就是這樣按照委員剛剛講我們是這樣做的他不到一小時我們給他算一小時"},{"start":236.373,"end":265.293,"text":"對一定要如此做因為我們不希望說讓員工他有所疑慮大家依法來做好好的照顧員工我們現行這樣做團結才能夠來提升那接下來本學要請教在你的轉投資的企業當中你很多的高階主管你很多的高階主管都是從我們的君子來轉所以目前我們轉投資的這個企業到底現在他的績效如何總共多少家"},{"start":266.473,"end":267.094,"text":"我們有22家轉投資公司"},{"start":287.647,"end":301.096,"text":"我們的每年的盈餘,因為我們都是戰股,攪到我們安置基金的錢,大概都有12億,投資報酬率大概有十幾趴十幾趴,那賠錢的有幾家?22家裡頭,賠錢的有幾家?"},{"start":307.589,"end":331.742,"text":"賠錢你沒有,今年已經沒有了,去年因為疫情,前年因為疫情的關係,我們的客運公司是有賠錢的那現在呢?現在已經轉虧為盈了,到今年9月份為止,兩家客運公司的盈餘都已經到了兩千多萬了,已經慢慢在恢復了"},{"start":332.761,"end":353.414,"text":"本席要強調的也就是說因為以往我們很多的高階主管甚至有很多我們轉投資都是由我們退伍會的這個主管或者是我們的員工去代理的也不是代理去就職的那本席要認為你們應該可以去盤點一下"},{"start":354.975,"end":376.714,"text":"因為現在非常的競爭你們可以去盤點一下現在好但是可以好上加好一些專業的技術專業的領域那你必須的確需要派出一些專業的人才你才可以逐步上升因為非常的競爭尤其明年川普上任之後"},{"start":377.515,"end":391.494,"text":"全球大家都說很多的未確定性在他的字典裡頭最重要的兩個字就是關稅這個是他的字典裡頭最重要的兩個字關稅所以我們也必須嚴正以待"},{"start":392.779,"end":412.747,"text":"也必須去盤點從我們的人力方面該當要有專業人力那應該要去做調整那該當我們要怎麼樣整個布局的一個調整我想非常重要因為在未來明年度我們必須會接受到很大的挑戰而且不是我方"},{"start":413.874,"end":443.517,"text":"能夠去做決定的當然我們如果把我們的基礎面做得更好那當然我們會更強所以我希望用這個來勉勵你去盤點看看你的22家裡頭你所派出去的不管是我們的將領不管是我們退伍會內部的人員那你應該去對照一下主管機關單位你應該去對照一下他是不是在他的專業領域裡頭我們不希望只有站的一個位置這樣對我們整個團隊是不好的"},{"start":444.69,"end":467.308,"text":"主委你可以認同這樣的方向嗎?謝謝委員的指導我們會因應未來的情勢做一些盤點怎麼樣去因應我們會指導我們轉投資事業這樣來規劃對你們轉投資的你把它盤點出來然後你也順便資料給本席你有所謂哪裡做調整的給本席我們一起加油讓我們的台灣更好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時11分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好。主委，總統先生昨天針對霸凌這個事件，下令要求所有的行政部門、公部門一週之內全面的去了解、檢討，您做了嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我們會裡面針對內部的管理，第一個我們設置主委的信箱，任何人都可以投訴到我的信箱，我每天都會看，如果有質疑的一些案件，我都會交代我的辦公室主任通知相關的處要處理，然後跟我回報，所以我都會掌握跟管制。第二個我們會裡面相關的重要會議，或者我去看榮家，我都會跟他們做一些親教、親考的宣導，就是內部的管理是非常重要的。我們榮家每一個堂，我也鼓勵他們自己產生幹部，堂長在後面可以做輔導，就榮家這些榮民伯伯他們等於自己管理自己，用各種方式，我們就是防範這些不合理的管教事件發生。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你本身身體力行在做，那醫院呢？因為退輔會是榮民醫院的主管機關，那醫院呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：醫院同樣的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：醫院的血汗醫護的議題、護病比的議題。"],["嚴主任委員德發：醫院護病比，跟委員報告，我們所有的榮院，公職醫生的比例是符合相關規定的，我們現在才缺0.4%，整個衛福部的比例大概是12%，我們是低於這個比例的，所以我們人力沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的榮民醫院很努力。"],["嚴主任委員德發：那三班護病比，我們16所榮院都是合乎相關規定的，問題就是在夜班，還有幾所榮院的比例沒到達那個標準，我們現在就努力在做招募，然後薪資待遇的調整，各榮院都由總院在做管控。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為有了這個事件，我們還是要警惕，血汗醫護已經在民間有這個印象，尤其是懷孕的護理人員、醫師，我們都要特別照顧，因為血汗醫護也可以是一個廣泛的職場霸凌，當然我們整個榮民醫院的體系是很規矩的按部就班在做，但是我們希望能夠好上加好，不希望有憾事再發生，特別提出。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員指導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，勞動部公告雇主給付的勞工工資的計算方式至分鐘為止，就是沒有滿一小時的要算一小時，即使你做30分鐘也要算一小時，所以本席請教，到目前為止，你16家榮總體系的醫療機構、榮民之家跟農場的加班費，是不是也是依照未滿一個鐘頭算一個鐘頭？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們都是按照委員剛剛講的這樣做的，他不到一小時，我們也給他算一小時。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，一定要如此做，因為我們不希望讓員工有所疑慮，大家依法來做，好好的照顧員工。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們現行是這樣做的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：團結才能夠來提升。","接下來本席要請教，在你的轉投資的企業當中，很多的高階主管都是從軍職轉過來的，目前這些轉投資企業的績效到底如何？總共多少家？賠錢的有多少家？請說明。"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我們總共是22家。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長，我們有22家轉投資公司，因為我們都占股，我們每年的盈餘繳到安置基金的錢大概都有12億，投資報酬率大概有十幾percent。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：22家裡頭賠錢的有幾家？"],["楊處長長政：沒有，今年已經沒有了，往年是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這麼巧？我問你就沒有了？"],["楊處長長政：現在已經沒有了，去年、前年因為疫情的關係，我們的客運公司是有賠錢的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那現在呢？"],["楊處長長政：現在已經轉虧為盈了，到今年9月份為止，兩家客運公司的盈餘都已經到了兩千多萬，已經慢慢在恢復了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，本席要強調的也就是，因為以往我們很多的高階主管，甚至有很多轉投資都是由退輔會的主管或者員工去代理，也不是代理，去就職的，本席認為你們應該可以去盤點一下，因為現在非常的競爭，現在好，但是可以好上加好，一些專業的技術、專業的領域，必須派駐一些專業的人才才可以逐步提升，因為非常的競爭，尤其明年川普上任之後，全球都說有很多的未確定性，在他的字典裡頭最重要的兩個字就是「關稅」，所以我們必須嚴陣以待，也必須去盤點，在人力方面，該當要有專業人力的就應該要去調整，整個布局該當怎麼樣調整，我想非常重要，因為在明年度我們會接受到很大的挑戰，而且不是我方能夠去決定的，當然我們如果把我們的基礎面做得更好，我們會更強，所以我希望用這個來勉勵大家，你去盤點看看，你的22家裡頭，你所派出去的，不管是將領還是退輔會內部的人員，你應該去對照一下他是不是在專業領域裡頭，我們不希望他只是占了一個位置，這樣對整個團隊是不好的。主委，你可以認同這樣的方向嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員的指導，我們會因應未來的情勢做一些盤點，怎麼樣去因應，我們會指導各個轉投資事業這樣來規劃。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你們把轉投資事業盤點出來，然後把書面資料給本席，有哪裡做調整的，也給本席，我們一起加油，讓臺灣更好，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，嚴主委請回。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","麥玉珍、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束；本日會議有王定宇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra 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"李委員"},{"start":12.541,"end":39.8,"text":"部長好我想首先在進入主題之前要恭喜剛半個小時之前得知的消息就是我們台灣楊雙子他的台灣漫遊錄獲得美國國家圖書館的翻譯組的大獎成為台灣文學史上的頭藝人喔那楊雙子剛用中文發表感言的時候他說書寫是為了回答台灣人是什麼人"},{"start":44.244,"end":54.714,"text":"在明年度的文化部的預算編列中,本席有三大核心關懷。第一個就是數位文史資料庫的建置。第二個是推動熱身登錄世界遺產。第三個是投資文化創意產業。我們先來談數位文史資料庫的建置。"},{"start":63.063,"end":80.503,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":80.903,"end":104.759,"text":"只不過也同樣也一直以來都沒有好好規劃如何讓使用者有效的運用這些資料所以簡單來講文化部確實有在做資料的收集但有收集卻沒有系統這相當可惜喔那除了這個之外透過我們重建台灣藝術史計畫推動的這個文史資料庫的建置我們出現了一些"},{"start":105.64,"end":108.362,"text":"adequate to the needs of the community and the public."},{"start":128.459,"end":154.996,"text":"閱讀畫面這個網站喔他連台灣的重要作家的重要作品都查不到資料那所謂的文化文學的素材產生器也意義不明所以我覺得花費公帑可是交出這樣的工作成果我另有什麼樣的理由在大眾眼中看來就覺得其實文化部的形象也好或文學館的形象也好我就是受到一些傷害那同時我覺得也讓人家質疑說文化部到底"},{"start":155.976,"end":185.083,"text":"你們是不是做一趴或做一百趴都可以宣稱說我們有在做這個資料庫的建制喔所以想要請教部長的是說未來你是不是可以來努力做到本席要倡議的三大改革第一個就是來開放典藏資料高階的圖檔第二個我們要完整提供全民無償利用國家編轉的這個文史資料與文學作品第三個是系統化各個資料庫部長你的看法"},{"start":187.057,"end":209.67,"text":"關於那個高階圖檔這個我待會請文學館館長跟您回答您剛才講幾個問題我都承認因為當年我們是2019年用那個CHATGDP的2.0已經沒有辦法去符合現代運用者AI技術的期望那剛剛您講這幾點我想我們已經在開始改進我想請文學館館長跟您報告我們進度好嗎?"},{"start":213.188,"end":238.769,"text":"委員好有關那個委員所提到的相關資料庫的部分我們已經在修正了其他的部分的話我們會就也全面的在就程式跟資料面的部分在全面的去做檢視那有關高階圖檔的這個部分的話因為台文館的可能會涉及當代作家的一個著作權那如果有著作權沒有疑問的這個部分那我們"},{"start":239.409,"end":256.797,"text":" 明年就是會開放稿要接圖檔的下載利用。那醫事報告。好。OK。好。謝謝。這個期待這個重新建置這個時間要快啦。好。那再來。急醫療人權文資於一生而且和世界和生病隔離史最緊密的相連的這個樂生療養院。我想"},{"start":259.838,"end":287.978,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":288.739,"end":313.101,"text":"這是哪門子的世界遺產?作為我國我們文化主管機關文化部為什麼可以一方面說樂生是世界遺產的這個潛力點那一方面又放任這樣的潛力點受到這樣的破壞而且近乎與所謂地區的居民形成我覺得是物理上的嚴重隔離那先請教陳局長好了"},{"start":315.063,"end":324.594,"text":"請問這樣的懸空路橋的所在地,原貌到底是什麼樣子?樂森的願民們期待是應該有什麼樣的復原?我想你很清楚,請你簡單回答。"},{"start":326.135,"end":332.461,"text":"律師內閣委員會是文化景觀,有47棟建築物是文資身份,是歷史建築。世界遺產的潛力點除了建物及整體景觀之外,歷史的脈絡內容是它的重點。當然,可是它的入口意象,"},{"start":355.372,"end":365.463,"text":"閱名門希望的入口意向當然絕對不是把樂生搞得像現在面目全非的這種懸空入橋而是希望的是緩波大平台"},{"start":367.156,"end":391.672,"text":"我想局長你知道衛福部如何處理這個緩波大平台嗎?你知道嗎?就是說他們是說這個新莊機場已經啟用所以他沒有採納這個緩波大平台這個空間那可是這種說法認真講是這樣當然是基於事實或者是說還是基於對文化資產的無知這我倒是很納悶喔"},{"start":393.653,"end":406.588,"text":"這是衛福部的看法可是我覺得你身為一個文資管理機關我覺得我們應該要同意當然我們前提是同意樂生他是世界遺產的前立點可是在"},{"start":407.509,"end":422.18,"text":" bicyn 作為你的角色在哪裡我覺得這個很重要事實上機場是已經啟用可是在價值面身為文化部我覺得還是要去努力去協調可行的文資修復方案不是嗎"},{"start":423.441,"end":448.388,"text":"所以依據文資保存法,如果地方主管機關有所不為而不作為,中央其實是可以介入來處理的。所以要請教的是說,如果衛福部、交安部、新北市政府、台北市政府捷運局,集體對這個世界遺產潛力點的文資價值展現無知,那我覺得你們真的不該出手,或者你們要繼續怠惰下去嗎?局長。"},{"start":452.244,"end":471.318,"text":"因為衛福部現在有成立樂生園區整體發展計畫的督導小組還有推動小組,我們文化部文資局每一次會議都有去。所有的相關的修繕或者是相關的整建事項也都經過了新北市政府的文資審議委員會去審議通過的。"},{"start":475.981,"end":493.234,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":494.691,"end":498.694,"text":"我是這樣建議啦就是說我們可不可以即刻來展開所謂的多方的對談就是說跟願名也好或者跟國際愛麗亞協會的台灣分會或者青年的樂生聯盟台灣蠻野新竹生態協會以及我們衛福部、交安部、新北市政府、台北市政府協議局等等"},{"start":516.306,"end":527.586,"text":"厲不厲害?我們是不是來共同來對於這個所謂的世界遺產潛力點有一些共識然後來攜手來推動緩破大平安這個案的執行。"},{"start":528.567,"end":543.899,"text":"局長您的看法呢?我想我們文化部文資局非常願意也非常樂意來協調這個裡面的文資主管機關新北市政府還有這個整個熱身發展計畫的管理機關就是衛福部我們很樂意來協調。那請你一定要盡全力好不好?"},{"start":547.922,"end":562.54,"text":"最後我想要談到文化創意產業的投資我們被譽為中國首款的3A大作黑神話悟空這個一直是很多人關注的話題這個禮拜也入圍了世界年度的最佳遊戲"},{"start":564.002,"end":588.458,"text":"很多人的問題可能都問錯重點根本不是至於說台灣為什麼沒有而是我們的遊戲產業到底長了什麼樣子那文策院又有什麼樣的有效投資策略那我想我們知道我們台灣的獨立遊戲的投資者都是屬於小公司那在開放遊戲的過程中資金規模可能沒有有些限制"},{"start":589.258,"end":608.365,"text":" bicytter1、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicytter1、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicytter1、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicytter1、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicytter1、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicytter1、審查11"},{"start":610.086,"end":626.91,"text":"adequate 代理的風險比較小或者他已經獲得國外市場的認可的這些海外遊戲所以如何將所謂的大型的遊戲公司然後把投資標的轉向來投資國內的國產遊戲我想這就是您的重責大任您的看法呢"},{"start":627.712,"end":643.11,"text":"謝謝委員講這一題事實上我自己個人其實過去在遊戲產業工作過20幾年了所以對遊戲業的發展雖然相當清楚大型的上市櫃遊戲公司因為國發基金目前是無法直接投入到公司的股權投資另外一方面是大型上市櫃公司因為想要避免風險"},{"start":643.831,"end":646.573,"text":" proporting to the game development,"},{"start":659.241,"end":680.333,"text":""},{"start":680.633,"end":704.58,"text":"目前已經有大概五、六家小型獨立遊戲公司會透過我們的資金整合以及我們會媒合一個大型的國際的一個遊戲平台與他們合資希望讓他們直接透過我們的資金對接到國際平台然後他們也有能力應用比較大的資金去做比較大型的遊戲另外台灣科技公司這個營收也高有兩家台灣遊戲公司對於做電競的周邊一年營收有一兩千億在全球"},{"start":705.9,"end":721.705,"text":"我們覺得他們不要只做硬體希望他們做軟體那這兩家因為已經有媒體接載過了所以我也可以講就是華碩跟威剛目前兩家公司也跟我們正在進行合組大型公司跟基金來做ACG相關的投資以上跟委員報告"},{"start":722.503,"end":743.461,"text":"感謝您提到電競因為運動部成立建在選上所以我想未來這個電競其實是很重要的一環所以我想這個媒合要有賴您文策院要努力說讓台灣也能看見這個遊戲的市場那這一點再請文策院這邊努力謝謝委員好 謝謝林經緯委員部長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":584,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時3分）謝謝主席。有請李遠部長，還有文資局陳局長、文策院蔡董事長。"],["主席：請部長及以上三位。"],["李部長遠：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。我想在進入主題之前，剛剛半個小時之前得知的消息，要恭喜我們臺灣楊双子，他的《臺灣漫遊錄》獲得美國國家圖書館翻譯組的大獎，成為臺灣文學史上的頭一人。楊双子剛剛用中文發表感言的時候，他說：書寫是為了回答臺灣人是什麼人，很感動！","進入主題，在明年度文化部的預算編列中，本席有三大核心關懷：第一個就是數位文史資料庫的建置；第二個是推動樂生登錄世界遺產；第三個是投資文化創意產業。我們先來談數位文史資料庫的建置。我想這是臺灣文化工作的基本功，它很辛苦、很複雜，也沒有立即可見的成效，可是這種基礎硬底子，我看是絕對少不了。實際上，我覺得文化部一直都有在做文史資料的蒐集跟建置，只不過也同樣的，一直以來都沒有好好規劃如何讓使用者有效運用這些資料。所以簡單來講，文化部確實有在做資料的蒐集，但有蒐集卻沒有系統，這相當可惜。除了這個之外，透過重建臺灣藝術史計畫推動的這個文史資料庫的建置，我們出現了一些不堪利用的問題，舉例來講，像在文學史上面，臺灣文學館也為了重建各區域文學的思想脈絡，有統整一個平臺，叫做文學好臺誌。文學館的立意良善，可是做工很粗糙，就如本席秀在PPT的截圖畫面，這個網站連臺灣重要作家的重要作品都查不到資料，所謂文學的素材產生器也意義不明。","所以我覺得花費公帑，可是交出這樣的工作成果，無論有什麼樣的理由，在大眾眼中看來，其實文化部的形象也好或文學館的形象也好，我覺得是受到一些傷害。同時我覺得也讓人家質疑文化部，到底是不是做1%或做100%，都可以宣稱有在做這個資料庫的建置？所以想要請教部長的是，未來你是不是可以努力做到本席要倡議的三大改革：第一個，開放典藏資料高階的圖檔；第二個，我們要完整提供全民無償利用國家編撰的文史資料與文學作品；第三個，系統化各個資料庫。部長的看法如何？"],["李部長遠：關於高階圖檔這個部分，我待會請文學館館長跟你回答。你剛才講的幾個問題我都承認，因為當年我們是2019年用ChatGPT 2.0，已經沒有辦法符合現在運用者對AI技術的期望，所以剛剛你講這幾點，我們已經在開始改進，我想請文學館館長跟你報告我們的進度好嗎？"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["陳館長瑩芳：有關委員所提到相關資料庫的部分，我們已經在修正了，其他的部分，我們也就程式跟資料面的部分再全面去做檢視。有關高階圖檔的這個部分，因為臺文館可能會涉及當代作家的著作權，如果著作權沒有疑問的部分，我們明年就會開放高階圖檔的下載利用，以上。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝。期待重新建置的這個時間要快啦！","再來，集醫療、人權、文資於一身，而且和世界漢生病隔離史最緊密相連的樂生療養院，我想很可能是臺灣登錄世界遺產最具潛力的場址。可是很明顯，從文建會到現在的文化部，似乎都極度欠缺與衛福部跨部會的合作機制，以至於對於樂生原貌的重建，以及樂生院民權益的保障，我覺得都還有很大、很大進步的空間。首先想要請部長跟局長來看PPT，我們來看這是哪門子的世界遺產？文化部作為我國文化主管機關，為什麼可以一方面說樂生是世界遺產的潛力點，一方面又放任這樣的潛力點受到這樣的破壞？而且近乎與所謂地區的居民，我覺得是形成了物理上的嚴重隔離。先請教陳局長好了，請問這樣的懸空陸橋所在地，原貌到底是什麼樣子？樂生的院民們期待應該是怎麼樣的復原，我想你很清楚，請你簡單回答。"],["陳局長濟民：好，我想樂生療養院整個來講是所謂的文化景觀，裡面有四十七棟建築物的文資身分是歷史建築，整個的世界遺產的潛力點，可能除了建物跟整體景觀之外，整個歷史的脈絡、內容，可能是它的重點。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然！可是它的入口意象也是很重要，院民們希望的入口意象，當然絕對不是把樂生搞得像現在面目全非的這種懸空陸橋，而希望的是緩坡大平臺，局長知道衛福部如何處理這個緩坡大平臺嗎？你知道嗎？他們是說新莊機廠已經啟用，所以它沒有採納緩坡大平臺這個空間，可是這種說法認真講是基於事實？或者還是基於對文化資產的無知？這我倒是很納悶。衛福部有衛福部的看法，可是身為文資管理機關，我覺得我們應該要同意……當然我們的前提是同意樂生是世界遺產的潛力點。可是你的角色在哪裡，我覺得這個很重要。事實上機廠是已經啟用，可是在價值面，我覺得文化部還是要去努力協調可行的文資修復方案，不是嗎？所以依據文資保存法，如果地方主管機關應有作為而不作為，中央其實是可以介入來處理的。所以要請教的是，如果衛福部、交通部、新北市政府、臺北市政府、捷運局集體對這個世界遺產潛力點的文資價值展現無知，那麼你們真的都不出手，或者你們要繼續怠惰下去嗎？局長。"],["陳局長濟民：我們每一次……因為衛福部現在有成立樂生園區整體發展計畫督導小組，還有推動小組，文化部文資局每一次會議都有去。它所有的相關修繕或者是整建的相關事項也都有經過新北市政府的文資審議委員會審議通過的，不至於說有破壞這些文化景觀或者是歷史建築的這種情事。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，問題是未來怎麼樣修復的問題啊，現況就是這樣啊！就是一個所謂的懸空陸橋，對不對？我是這樣建議，我們可不可以即刻展開多方對談？就是說跟院民也好，或者跟國際愛地芽協會的臺灣分會，或者青年的樂生聯盟、臺灣蠻野心足生態協會，以及我們衛福部、交通部、新北市政府、臺北市政府捷運局等等，我們是不是共同來對於這個所謂的世界遺產潛力點有一些共識，然後攜手推動緩坡大平台案的執行？局長你的看法呢？"],["陳局長濟民：我想我們文化部文資局非常願意也非常樂意來協調相關文資主管機關、新北市政府，還有整個樂生發展計畫的管理機關，就是衛福部，我們很樂意來協調。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，請你一定要盡全力，好不好？"],["陳局長濟民：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後我想要談到文化創意產業的投資。被譽為中國首款的3A大作黑神話悟空，一直是很多人關注的話題，這個禮拜也入圍了世界的年度最佳遊戲。很多人的問題可能都問錯，重點根本不是質疑說臺灣為什麼沒有，而是我們的遊戲產業到底想長成什麼樣子？文策院又有什麼樣的有效投資策略？我想我們知道臺灣獨立遊戲的投資者都是屬於小公司，在開發遊戲的過程中，資金規模可能會有些限制。也就是說，我們如何協調有意願的所謂獨立遊戲開發業者，我們再來整併，把它的資本規模擴大，怎麼引進大企業跟文策院來合作，我想這才是可行的解決方案。至於現在掛牌上市的遊戲公司，我想往往傾向風險……就是他代理的風險比較小，或者已經獲得國外市場認可的這些海外遊戲，所以如何將所謂的大型遊戲公司，然後把投資標的轉向來投資國內的國產遊戲，我想這就是您的重責大任，你的看法呢？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：謝謝委員講這一題。事實上我自己個人其實過去在遊戲產業工作過二十幾年，所以對遊戲業的發展算是相當清楚。大型的上市櫃遊戲公司，因為國發基金目前是無法直接投入到公司的股權投資，另外一方面是大型上市櫃公司因為想要避免風險，大部分90%的營收來自於代理國外、日本、韓國、中國遊戲。所以目前我們的作法是，我們已經開始跟大概3家大型的上市櫃遊戲公司談專案投資，就他們開發的遊戲我們進行專案投資，目前已經有一、兩個進行到審議階段，但容我在這邊就姑且先不談它的名稱。","另外，比較小型的獨立遊戲公司我們也理解，因為他們的人數相對小，5人、10人左右，開發的遊戲不要說像是黑悟空這種3A等級，連他們想要開發出RPG萬人遊戲都有問題，所以我們目前開始進行整併。現在已經大概有五、六家小型獨立遊戲公司會透過我們的資金整合，以及我們會媒合一個大型的國際遊戲平臺與他們合資，希望他們直接透過我們的資金對接到國際平臺，然後他們也有能力應用比較大的資金去做比較大型的遊戲。","另外，臺灣科技公司營收也高，有2家臺灣遊戲公司對於做電競的周邊，一年營收在全球有一、兩千億，我們覺得他們不要只做硬體，希望他們可以做軟體。那這2家因為已經有媒體接載過了，所以我也可以講，就是華碩跟威剛，目前2家公司也跟我們正在進行合組大型公司跟基金來做ACG相關的投資。以上跟委員報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：感謝你提到電競。因為運動部的成立箭在弦上，所以未來電競其實是很重要的一環。我想媒合方面有賴文策院的努力，讓臺灣也能看見遊戲的市場，這一點再請文策院這邊努力。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員，部長請回。","接下來我們有請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157309","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157309","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752626bdae5e50739d736af624ec870174964aaf8aafe3010cc8401a8fd86e0fba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:00:12 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工作量只會更大而且會大非常多"},{"start":196.277,"end":204.958,"text":"那如果在薪資還是就像這些離職醫師說的不如原本之前承諾的金額狀況下非常有可能"},{"start":206.445,"end":225.434,"text":"合約到了以後就不想再留了所以其實這些醫生都說還持續留在醫院其實都還沒有到診所的基層其實照理來說是我們在容院體系裡面要非常非常珍惜的人才可是卻因為這樣的原因都走了而且我擔心的事情是會有骨牌效應"},{"start":227.621,"end":250.715,"text":"這個部分,院長,你覺得?謝謝黃委員,因為我在花蓮大概兩年了,對基層、對花東我是非常的關懷那因為0403地震、0725的凱米颱風,的確造成一些人要過去有一些影響但是我跟委員報告,其實過去花東的同仁的薪水是在我們的分院裡面是最高的"},{"start":251.175,"end":267.325,"text":"但是給他們高薪本來是應該的但受到一些種種因素造成以後業績比較掉下來所以有一段時間是真的薪水是的確下降了那北龍也積極在努力也派了幾個重要的人而且啟動一個最重要的花東區域聯防"},{"start":268.846,"end":273.828,"text":"院長 但是區域聯防的醫師會幫忙職業班嗎我們跟他協調他們現在不太願意但是幫我們看門診當門診多的話業績上來薪水就會變高院長我的認知是"},{"start":287.635,"end":305.05,"text":"區域聯防當然是一個好的做法可是他們不會幫忙職業班所以現在大家最焦慮的事情最憂慮的事情是這些會值班的醫師更快速的要離開那留下來的壓力負擔就更大就可能會更想走"},{"start":307.489,"end":317.655,"text":"這裏面變成是一個負向的循環所以我也肯定區域聯防的做法但是很明確的區他們不會幫忙值班啊"},{"start":322.519,"end":326.081,"text":"北榮現在就努力在派一些優秀的人下去"},{"start":349.597,"end":374.612,"text":"那連5年都有剩餘第二個我們看到立法院預算中心的報告在這些北榮的分院裡面目前我看到只有花東的三分院其實是由贏轉虧的其實其他的都是由虧轉贏其實很清楚所以院長我這邊想說的事情是說院長我不知道你會不會有這個決心我們其實在經費上面也其實還有剩餘"},{"start":376.181,"end":400.257,"text":"能不能夠針對這些醫師的尤其是花東三分院的醫師他們在薪資上面的這個支持跟幫助還可以再更大如果我們整體來說是有剩餘的大家也知道這個我們現在的影響我其實覺得我看的這些相關數據我認為做得到院長你做得到嗎是報告委員一定會努力但就是不影響總院的"},{"start":401.325,"end":402.988,"text":"若符合法規一定會支持"},{"start":417.329,"end":445.887,"text":"符合法規下面盡力的支持我覺得這部分我們願意來跟這個北榮來做這方面的協調好不好因為我現在講的不是說你們要不要支援的問題我現在講的是實質上面的物質條件的問題物質條件不到你一直說我要鼓勵大家可能大家也不一定會想去我覺得這是我們現在看到的狀況所以院長我自己很希望在這方面可以看到其實院長很多地方做得非常好一樣看到院長在這方面的決心因為我知道你也真的待過花東所以你是非常非常清楚知道"},{"start":446.547,"end":462.783,"text":"河東我們在醫療上面的困境也包括容苑上面的困境在符合法規我們當然不會要求去違法當然要符合法規那盡力的來支持來提高重點是要把大家真的留住"},{"start":463.507,"end":463.747,"text":"主委 院長 可以嗎"},{"start":480.322,"end":506.195,"text":"剛剛院長已經跟您回覆了是合乎法定範圍我們都會可以合乎法定範圍裡面我們來趕快邀請這些基層發動三分院基層醫師研商中長期的方案應該沒問題吧是好謝謝院長再來下面我再一分鐘我要再提一下我知道目前北榮的醫師每年至少1800小時去支援這是剛剛院長說的其實這要部分也謝謝院長有這樣子的措施"},{"start":507.296,"end":526.671,"text":"但有一點其實我們也聽到確實現在很多醫師都礙於我們這個叫做知己數額表其實裡面可以提供的這個相關費用的協助看起來我目前收我看到的資訊是已經動漲7年了"},{"start":528.78,"end":528.94,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":550.512,"end":550.993,"text":"致詭數額表上的報酬提高"},{"start":563.519,"end":592.754,"text":"現在大家都在講總額的問題大家現在大家在講點數的問題我覺得這些討論都很正向但我們這邊也動長了7年那合理的增加來提高大家去支援的誘因讓大家更有動力去如果退輔會跟院長願意把這件事情擔起來來向行政院提出我們也很願意從國會的角度來支持這部分主委跟院長可以嗎?可以 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更多包含臺北市的調查處宜蘭雲林都有會後也會提供相關的資料給法務部跟調查局也就是說因為卓榮泰院長說7天內要調查完所有我們政府部門相關的霸凌事件但是其實我們調查局的人員他們平常每年都有自填問卷在針對長官有沒有做霸凌相關的事情做評價"},{"start":273.675,"end":296.349,"text":"所以相關的這個證據其實都在上面那要請部長跟我們的調查局回去做進一步的調查然後今天為什麼會談這件事情就是因為當這個勞動部的事情發生之後我們看到剛才我所說的這位林維成他過去是新竹市調站的主任他依然固舞那導致我們在調查局的群組裡面看到的是什麼包含呢"},{"start":303.553,"end":319.938,"text":"你看看看我們洋洋灑灑的獎懲規定發現幹部只有在督導下級不利時會被懲處沒有懲處督導過大的也提到了當時這件事情有承認霸凌但是呢後來也沒有上新聞然後呢大家都在問如果"},{"start":321.698,"end":339.748,"text":"勞動部的這名這個往生者是以霸凌送檢調那霸凌檢調的人要把他送到哪裡甚至呢大家都在講說現在盛傳這名這個凌維成主任成主任打算呢要被升為副處長那你看到這個整個"},{"start":342.489,"end":364.289,"text":"都是昨天在調查局的群組裡面所討論的內容然後還講到就是說他到現在都還是在被圈選為輔導員所以如果您剛剛講說他曾經有霸凌的紀錄有遭到處分而且他是這個不適應的那為什麼我們調查局又要勾選他擔任輔導員呢"},{"start":367.206,"end":374.03,"text":"這部分我們再去了解再去了解那什麼時候可以給我們回覆?7天內?你現在現在剩下6天因為呢卓榮泰部長說卓榮泰院長說了7天之內要給答案跟回覆嗎?那我現在很具體的告訴你昨天整個調查局的群組都在講這位林維成他現在有可能再被外傳說還要去升副處長"},{"start":390.1,"end":401.604,"text":"而且實際上都還有霸凌的行為那過去您剛也說了他的案件被調查之後是不適任的也有處分的結果他現在竟然還被圈選為輔導員到處在輔導我們所謂調查局的人員所以這個部分要請這個我們法務部的部長"},{"start":408.846,"end":416.87,"text":"回去之後要調查清楚那不要讓這些過去曾經有霸凌雖然被處分但現在還繼續實施霸凌的人還可以當輔導員繼續以輔導的身份那再次的霸凌我們調查局的人員引起這麼這麼多裡面有1500個調查局的成員所有人都在罵1500個您可以看到這個地方有1500個調查局的成員在裡面"},{"start":435.82,"end":455.042,"text":"裡面一大堆人都是針對這一位林維成來做批評說他有霸凌的事實所以請法務部一定要回去謹慎的再度重啟調查而不是過去調查完了就覺得好像已經沒事了因為這個是持續中的霸凌案件可以做到嗎"},{"start":456.182,"end":480.729,"text":"這部分我再請調查局來處理好 那請問需要多久的時間回覆我們盡快盡快應該是6天因為這個卓榮泰部長院長的這個規定所以麻煩6天之內給我們初步的回覆因為卓榮泰院長在公開的場合說每一個特會裡面有霸凌情況要在7天之內做回覆昨天是第一天今天是第二天所以你們只剩下6天的時間麻煩在6天的時間按"},{"start":483.49,"end":504.987,"text":"卓榮泰院長的要求根本不是我要求的如果是我個人要求會給你們一個月但是呢今天是卓榮泰院長要求在七天之內每一個部會跟局處都要調查出有沒有職場霸凌的問題所以請你們在六天之內給我們初步的回覆今天是今天我才知道是今天來起算入就是七天"},{"start":505.267,"end":514.675,"text":"不是嘛 那左翁派院長意思不是這樣你自己去跟院長講不是 這個事情你自己去跟院長講這不是我說的如果所有人都是知道說起算七天的話那左翁派院長昨天他何必講這些話呢所以這不是我說的我說 如果是我會給你一個月我昨天才踢爆了外交部也有相關的霸凌我是給他們一個月的"},{"start":528.386,"end":539.318,"text":"結果下午我就聽到卓榮泰院長說7天之內全部的公家機關都要調查完畢所以不好意思你們真的剩6天不要怪我要怪怪院長好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":951,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時57分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請法務部鄭部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。今天雖然我等一下要問的跟調查局有關，但是因為現在大家對於霸凌的事件非常的關心，所以我還是找主管機關法務部這邊來做一個詢問。我們這邊又接獲了關於很多調查局的同仁他們感受到被霸凌的事件，我覺得有必要儘快的來揭露。","這件事情其實最早發生在2022年的時候，我在直播裡面就有講到，新竹調查站的主任林維成，也就是當初把余正煌的考績打成乙等的這一位新竹調查站的主任。當時在新竹市調站裡面，針對調查站的主管有沒有霸凌的行為，調查局的人員有做相關的自評，那裡面就有包含寫到自己愛應酬，又不想被外人當「細漢仔」，就拗站裡的同仁幫忙開車、擋酒，同仁不克出席之後，就遭林大主任罵N小時不給回家，這種人還能位居高職，這個調查局前景堪憂啊！然後也提到，每逢喝醉酒以後就會去值日官室騷擾值日官，辱罵副主任，辱罵據點，平時以辱罵幹部為樂，所以當時他去霸凌了這個余正煌，他們調查局的學長。還有，2021年的9月他們在跟竹科的廠商餐敘的時候，只因為不滿當天的值日調查官沒有把他安排到主桌，所以就在晚上把調查官跟副主任雙雙叫到寢室辱罵，從晚間9點罵到隔天的凌晨3點，整整6個小時。還有10月份、12月份攜帶酒精飲料到值日官室，林維成卻表示：「值日官室喝酒沒關係，我是主任」，所以這個調查官後來礙於林維成是上級就作罷。也曾經有打架的行為，一度驚動督察到場勸架，儘管這個事件有上報，最後不了了之。當時在2022年的時候調查局表示，針對相關的檢舉，已經請督察處介入調查了。我想要請問一下，2022年就介入調查的霸凌事件，後來的懲處結果為何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這一件根據調查局的處理，的確是由督察處主動立案調查，調查後的確是有不適任的情形。"],["徐委員巧芯：不適任的情形？"],["鄭部長銘謙：後來也調離非主管職務。"],["徐委員巧芯：他在112年2月4日調任航業調查處的主任秘書對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他那時候是有先調離新竹市調站，後來他也被處分了。"],["徐委員巧芯：他現在人在哪裡。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不清楚他現在的職務。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你要回去問調查局，因為這張投影片是當時所有調查局人員對於新竹市調查站等所做的評價，因為就是在講霸凌的問題，這我剛剛也講過。","下一張則有更多，包含臺北市調查處、宜蘭、雲林都有，會後我會提供相關的資料給法務部跟調查局。因為卓榮泰院長說7天內要調查完所有政府部門相關的霸凌事件，但是其實調查局的人員平常每年都有自填問卷，在針對長官有沒有做霸凌相關的事情進行評價，所以相關的證據其實都在上面，還請部長跟調查局回去做進一步的調查。","今天我為什麼會談這件事情？就是因為當勞動部的事情發生之後，我們看到剛才我所說的這位林維成，他過去是新竹市調站的主任，現在卻還依然故我，導致我們在調查局調查官的群組裡面看到了什麼？包含了「看看我們洋洋灑灑的獎懲規定，會發現幹部只有在『督導下級不力』時會被懲處，從沒有懲處『督導過當』的」，也提到當時這件事情有承認霸凌，但是後來也沒有上新聞，然後大家都在問，如果勞動部的這名往生者是霸凌送檢調，那霸凌檢調的人要把他送到哪裡？甚至大家都在講，現在盛傳這名林維成前主任打算要被升為副處長。","你看到的這整個都是昨天在調查局群組裡面所討論的內容，然後還講到他到現在都還被圈選為輔導員，所以如果您剛剛講他曾經有霸凌的紀錄、有遭到處分，而且還是不適任的，那為什麼調查局還要勾選他擔任輔導員呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再去瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：再去瞭解？什麼時候可以給我們回復？7天內，你現在就只剩下6天，因為卓榮泰院長說了，要在7天之內給答案跟回復。我現在很具體地告訴你，昨天整個調查局的群組都在講這位林維成，他現在被外傳還有可能去升副處長，而且實際上都還有霸凌的行為。剛剛您也說了，他過去的案件被調查之後是不適任的，也有處分的，結果他現在竟然還被圈選為輔導員，到處在輔導所謂調查局的人員，所以這個部分要請法務部部長回去之後要調查清楚，不要讓這些過去曾經有霸凌，雖然有被處分，但現在還繼續實施霸凌的人，還可以當輔導員，繼續以輔導員的身分再次霸凌調查局的人員，引起整個群組裡面1,500名這麼多調查局的成員都在罵。您可以看到，這個群組有1,500個調查局的成員在裡面，裡面一大堆人都是針對這位林維成在批評的，說他有霸凌的事實，所以請法務部一定要回去謹慎地再度重啟調查，而不是過去調查完了，就覺得好像已經沒事了，因為這個是持續中的霸凌案件，可以做到嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我再請調查局處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，請問需要多久的時間回復。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我儘快。"],["徐委員巧芯：儘快應該是6天，因為這是卓榮泰院長的規定，所以麻煩6天之內給我們初步的回復。卓榮泰院長在公開的場合說，每一個部會裡面有霸凌情況要在7天之內回復，昨天是第一天，今天是第二天，所以你們只剩下6天的時間，麻煩在6天的時間內按卓榮泰院長的要求跟規定……不是我要求的，如果是我個人要求的，我會給你們一個月，但今天是卓榮泰院長要求在7天之內，每一個部會跟局處都要調查出有沒有職場霸凌的問題，所以請你們在6天之內給我們初步的回復。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這件事是我今天才知道，所以要從今天起算7天。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！卓榮泰院長的意思不是這樣，你自己去跟院長講，這不是我說的。如果所有人都從知道起算7天的話，那卓榮泰院長昨天何必講這些話呢？所以這不是我說的，我說，如果是我，我會給你一個月。我昨天才踢爆外交部也有相關的霸凌，我是給他們一個月的，結果下午就聽到卓榮泰院長說要在7天之內，全部的公家機關都要調查完畢，所以不好意思，你們真的剩6天。不要怪我，要怪就怪院長，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157307","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157307","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752fbf0ac3ae005bc5ec3740404d340f2ad64aaf8aafe3010cce7f89b699d3b680b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:48:54 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proporting to the implementation of the implementation of the implementation of the implementation of the"},{"start":205.336,"end":218.222,"text":" proporting to the next question, if we now start to refer to the European Union, the United States, and Japan, basically these three"},{"start":223.404,"end":250.333,"text":""},{"start":250.553,"end":276.568,"text":"我們非常期待看到後續的會議所以我這邊的協助我這邊的建議就是相關的AI內容我認為文化部必須要積極的協助相關文化產業業者所有的工作那當然對於有侵權的可能性我認為你們還必須要跟跨部會那因為剛剛部長已經說要召開會議了所以我們非常期待看到後續的發展好我們來看下一個關於小公事的部分這邊是不是可以請公共電視胡董事長謝謝"},{"start":278.029,"end":278.049,"text":"請互動。"},{"start":284.738,"end":311.479,"text":"董事長早安委員好好 老師早去年使部長要說成立小公視我們非常期待我們希望看到小公視我們可以讓台灣自己的兒少節目支持率提高那在提高節目的同時也增加節目的品質同時讓產業真的有人才培育可以因此而產生所以大家非常期待立法院在預算上也相當的支持可是董事長我想跟你討論我們看到的一些問題因為在你們的新聞稿說"},{"start":312.62,"end":341.257,"text":"您從分主任他說希望藉由這一次增加預算跟成立小公司的機會把過去幾年沒有做到的事情一起做好包含我剛剛說的資金的部分然後製作水準的部分還有人才培育的部分如果這是大家共同的期待我們來看一下目前呢小公司所開出來這個標案的規格裡面一檔節目他們所拿到的成本小公司的要求是相關的團隊除了製作節目之外有人事費用這些我已經列出來了"},{"start":341.817,"end":367.585,"text":"他們還要自己做粉絲專業的行銷,IG、TREI、FB,更不要講可能還有YouTube短影音。還有相關的製作費會有不僅場地主題曲版權的問題,甚至節目的IP會被公視拿走。但是我知道有個團隊因為自己反映過後還是留在自己團隊,但是沒有反映的團隊IP就被拿走了。我講了這麼多,要做這麼多事情花這麼多錢,可是我們來看小公視給製作單位多少錢。"},{"start":369.275,"end":388.916,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":389.662,"end":397.287,"text":"Judge 1 科普兒少節目30分鐘一集要做90集,總共2520萬,所以一集是28萬。Judge 2 新創知識節目26集1040萬,所以一集是40萬。我想要問董事長不管是28萬、40萬還是60萬,你覺得回到我剛剛前面那兩頁,來麻煩幫我回到前面那兩頁。"},{"start":410.336,"end":410.476,"text":"閱讀片段"},{"start":425.939,"end":428.021,"text":"adequate budget for the new program."},{"start":447.795,"end":448.395,"text":"為什麼我這麼說?來看一下下一頁"},{"start":475.638,"end":496.825,"text":" bicy在2017就意識到需要更多的經費在製作英國本地的小孩要看的節目那他們的預算我們當然沒有辦法比可是我要問的是當時立法院支持小公視的預算並不是要給小公視做更多的promote或是增加更多的人力或者是我們擔心過往公視人力的問題再次在小公視產生所以我們大力支持"},{"start":497.205,"end":514.796,"text":"但是我現在光是從節目製作預算我就看到很多的問題我認為對於台灣的本土產業人才培育非常不利我覺得我們在用30年前的預算但是想像這一群人要為整個國家整個小公司賣命做出BBC等級的節目這樣合理嗎董事長"},{"start":516.882,"end":535.38,"text":"謝謝委員的關心因為細節當然我不是很了解不過就我原則性的政策可以跟委員做個說明基本上我們好像在整個兒少節目的預算分配上有的節目預算分配的比較高有的節目預算分配的比較一般那主要的考慮是希望發展不同類型的"},{"start":535.72,"end":540.343,"text":"這個我完全認同所以我剛剛舉了四檔不同的節目我並不想把所有節目列出來做比較因為每一個製作單位都有各自其專長跟熱情但我們不希望連這些要幫我們台灣的小孩做節目的人還要賣肝賣熱情賣愛但是是國家對不起他們甚至他們也不想再投入相關產業或者是這樣的預算可能只能拐騙到某一些自己以為可以做兒少節目的人然後拿著兒少兩個字就來騙這個預算"},{"start":563.195,"end":585.158,"text":"我不希望下一次立法院在談小公司的預算的時候我們看到的是那樣的節目所以我要拜託董事長我們當然沒有辦法針對每一檔節目但是我認為我們應該要積極盤點因為已經做這麼多節目出來在年度預算我們也都看見了我們真的看到小公司很努力但是會不會連小公司裡面自己的行政人力資源其實也不足"},{"start":586.161,"end":586.181,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":601.101,"end":604.423,"text":"adequate to public television and public television."},{"start":617.47,"end":637.332,"text":"閱讀者、專家、學者給予更多的建議或是請聽來自產業的聲音知道到底現在發生了什麼事情我認為你們就應該要更積極召開會議協助有熱情有愛想要投入節目的製作單位同時也協助小公視裡面所有的行政人員大家可以坐下來好好一起完成這個節目好嗎"},{"start":638.914,"end":648.514,"text":"跟委員報告,我們今天下午其實就是廣開一個諮詢會議,會邀請各界的人士,我相信這些問題我們都會願意好好來討論。那這個相關的會議紀錄可以再提供給我們辦公室嗎?"},{"start":649.634,"end":671.822,"text":"我想我們這些會議就都會公開的,沒問題。好,謝謝。那我們到時候再請提供給我們辦公室喔。好,最後一題,謝謝。要請部長,那董事長,謝謝。部長,我想要跟你們說一下,在文化部的所有業務裡面都會針對兒少設計很多政策跟資源喔。我們來看一下,從管所的使用開始,從閱讀的推廣到文化幣,到劇場,我知道"},{"start":672.202,"end":675.083,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":695.252,"end":716.681,"text":"當時就有人問文化部說故宮在2019年徵選過青年代表文化部有沒有考慮同樣在美術館博物館等機關有類似的模式。當時還有人說環保署成立青年跟諮詢小組文化部要不要來跟進。當時的文化部次長蕭忠煌也就是現在故宮的院長他說可以來思考這是2021年。"},{"start":718.081,"end":737.91,"text":"那直到現在2024年我們來看一下其實行政院早就頒布中央主管機關推動而少參與國家法治跟決策過程建議做法所以文化部你們其實是有相關指引可以做的那我不知道為什麼遲遲到現在我們都看不到文化部有更積極在這件事情上推進可是如果文化部狹下有這麼多的業務包含我們剛談的小公視、文化幣、閱讀推廣還有文策院想要投資的節目"},{"start":743.232,"end":771.198,"text":"每一個部門的業務都有兒少的角色在裡面為什麼我們可以沒有兒少諮詢代表?好 謝謝委員問的問題我們在2024年有一個文化平權推動會報裡面透過衛福部的邀請有兩位兒少代表這個這個會報推動完之後我想我們下一步就開始會朝著您剛才講這個事實上我們雖然沒有這樣一個諮詢機制但是我們做的每件事情都會透過兒少"},{"start":772.578,"end":794.801,"text":"adequate跟兒童面對面,譬如說國家...部長,我們要說實話,所有,包含您要推動的繪本獎勵1800萬這件事情,我都很好奇,我知道你們有召開宣刊專家會議,我就以我最熟悉的繪本來說,如果我們有兒少機制,兒少諮詢委員會,你去問問現在的小孩想看的書跟大人想買的書根本就是兩件事情,所有博客來上暢銷排行榜"},{"start":795.782,"end":796.463,"text":"adequate to 60分。"},{"start":825.894,"end":853.529,"text":"如果我們所有的部會都必須要面對兒少,我認為文化部應該要更積極地組成兒少相關代表會議。那你們絕對有機制可以做,我這邊已經提供給你們了。請告訴我你們多久以內可以完成相關的規劃報告?三個月。好,三個月。那我們就期待看到更積極的做法,不要再只是透過衛福部、兒少資料庫,好嗎?好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝陳培宇委員。接下來我們有請林一錦委員質詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":544,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時48分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：陳委員，你好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安。我們來談一下關於AI這個議題，國科會他們已經提出AI相關辦法的草案，但是我想要跟部長說，在相關法規範出爐之前，其實在業界已經產生了很多問題，如同剛剛葛如鈞委員說的，所有文化工作者的主管機關如果是文化部，我想文化部應該更有角度來看這個事情。","我們來看一下一些案例，這是已經發生在日本的狀況。第一個是日本有名的聲優組成了一個團隊「NOMORE擅自生成AI」，因為他們的聲音被放入語言模型當中訓練，然後用這個聲音再產出新的內容，對於這些聲優的粉絲們來說，可能沒有辦法第一時間搞清楚到底這個聲音是真的聲優所發出來的，還是透過AI合成，聲優們說：聲音就是我們的維生工具，也是聲優們的人生寫照，認為日本政府必須要有相關的態度，相關的科技業者也必須要有態度。","在動畫的部分也一樣，在9萬張圖片當中由AI所產生的圖，他們仔細的比對後發現2,500張有侵權，而這只是比較可以明顯指出的，還有一些沒有辦法明確指出。","剛剛有聲音，現在有圖畫，我們來看還有沒有別的呢？在文本當中，在Amazon的相關文章當中，已經有一些作家發現他被出版了新書，也就是說，部長，您可能某一天就會在博客來上看到您被出版了一本新書，但可能是AI寫成的，這個現象已經在美國發生了，有些作家也開始表示他們不想自己的作品被拿來訓練AI。","相關的新聞一樣有類似的問題，AI侵權的訴訟，WSJ母公司跟紐約郵報有一個訴訟，他們是說AI模型用了他們的新聞去回答用戶所提出來的問題，再產生出新的內容，但是他們在用的這些新聞其實是受到版權保護的，但是AI產業依然沒有回應。","部長，我剛剛舉了這麼多的例子，你自己怎麼看待這件事情？因為我們現在是AI創新內閣，但我認為文化部在這件事情上，目前為止，剛剛的業務報告我整本都看完了，我其實也沒有看到文化部在這件事情上有做任何的動作或是有任何的研究機制，我想問部長，你這邊怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：其實我們有在做，我們最近蒐集歐盟、美國、日本、韓國的法令，在今年9月已經完成一個指引，然後在12月會辦4場閉門式的焦點座談，向文化業者、學者請益，以他們的意見來修正，預定在2025年4月完成指引修正稿，我們也正在研擬一個文化藝術應用生成式AI的規範指引，然後在這個研擬的過程中，跟表演藝術、視覺藝術、編劇、影音、圖文等傳達這些可能的風險。其實，我們本身最近在做一個繪本的徵件，來了900件，我們就開始想到如何去辨識這900件裡面有多少是AI的作品，這個我們自己非常警覺，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長，根據您剛剛說的，我們現在開始參考歐盟、美國跟日本，但基本上這三個所採用的方向都非常不一致，日本是大開放主義，但是歐盟比較多站在保護跟保守的立場，如果文化部都有作為參考，那我非常期待後續4場閉門座談後相關的指引修正出爐，因為我認為這對臺灣所有的藝文創作者都是一個非常重要的保障，所以我也非常期待你們的4場閉門座談，不要真的是閉門，而是以開放式的心態去邀請產學界，好嗎？好，我們非常期待看到後續的會議。","所以我這邊的建議就是，相關的AI內容，我認為文化部必須要積極地協助相關文化產業業者所有的工作，當然，對於有侵權的可能性，我認為你們還必須要跨部會，因為剛剛部長已經說要召開會議了，所以我們非常期待看到後續的發展。","下一個議題是關於小公視的部分，是不是可以請公共電視胡董事長，謝謝。"],["主席：請胡董。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，您可以先休息一下，我要請問公共電視的胡董。","董事長，早安。"],["胡董事長元輝：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：老師早。去年史部長說要成立小公視，我們非常期待，我們希望看到小公視可以讓臺灣自己的兒少節目自製率提高，在提高節目的同時，也增加節目的品質，同時讓產業真的有人才培育可以因此而產生，所以大家非常期待，立法院在預算上也相當地支持。可是董事長，我想跟你討論我們看到的一些問題，因為在你們的新聞稿看到，林瓊芬主任說，希望藉由這次增加預算跟成立小公視的機會，把過去幾年沒有做到的事情一起做好，包含我剛剛說的資金的部分、製作水準的部分，還有人才培育的部分，如果這是大家共同的期待。","我們來看一下，目前小公視所開出來的標案規格裡一檔節目所拿到的成本，小公視的要求是相關團隊除了製作節目之外，有人事費用等等這些我已經列出來了，他們還要自己做粉絲專業的行銷，IG、Threads、FB，更不要講可能還有YouTube短影音。還有相關的製作費，會有布景、場地、主題曲、版權的問題，甚至節目IP會被公視拿走，但是我知道有個團隊在反映過後還是留在自己團隊，但是沒有反映的團隊的IP就被拿走了。我講了這麼多，要做這麼多事情、花這麼多錢，可是我們來看小公視給製作單位多少錢。","董事長，你看一下，兒童外景節目一集30分鐘，13集780萬，所以一集是60萬；公視兒少IP延續節目，就是古典魔力客，古典魔力客一樣是30分鐘60萬，我先不講這60萬好不好用，我請董事長你自己想一想；科普兒少節目30分鐘一集，要做90集，總共2,520萬，所以一集是28萬；新創知識節目26集1,040萬，所以一集是40萬。我想要問董事長，不管是28萬、40萬還是60萬，你覺得以我剛剛前面那二頁所顯示的費用，這樣真的合理嗎？","我們看整個小公視的預算是6億，6億裡面大概有一半是拿來製作節目，當然你們開出了非常多的節目，有的是延續公共電視過往的節目，包含連我的小孩都很熟悉的冰淇淋，或者是新的節目，你們也開啟了相關的預算，但是我要問，我們問了非常多製作團隊，其實這個預算非常非常的不合理，甚至大家都要動用到自己的人脈資源，大家像是做半志工一樣在貢獻自己的熱情跟專長。","我以古典魔力客來說，那個配音員他叫做焦元溥，他出去外面一場演講是好幾萬塊，他除了要當這個節目的顧問之外，他還要幫那隻貓咪配音，是沒有收錢的，還有各種古典節目知識裡面的know-how，他也都提供了他的熱情，為的就是推廣他們喜愛的古典音樂給這個世代的孩子。但我要問，這樣的節目製作預算真的沒有問題嗎？小公視真的可以用這樣的概念想要做出BBC等級的節目嗎？為什麼我這麼說？請看一下，BBC在2017就意識到需要更多的經費去製作英國本地的小孩要看的節目，他們的預算我們當然沒有辦法比，可是我要問的是，當時立法院支持小公視的預算，並不是要給小公視做更多的promote或是增加更多的人力，或者是我們擔心過往公視人力的問題再次在小公視產生，所以我們大力支持，但是我現在光是從節目製作預算就看到很多的問題，我認為對於臺灣的本土產業人才培育非常不利。我覺得我們在用30年前的預算，但是想像這一群人要為整個國家、整個小公視賣命，做出BBC等級的節目，這樣合理嗎？董事長。"],["胡董事長元輝：謝謝委員的關心，因為細節我不是很了解，不過我就原則性的政策可以跟委員做個說明。基本上，我們好像在整個兒少節目的預算分配上，有的節目預算分配的比較高，有的節目預算分配的比較一般，主要的考慮是希望發展不同類型的節目……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我完全認同，所以我剛剛舉了四檔不同的節目，我並不想把所有節目列出來做比較，因為每一個製作單位都有各自的專長跟熱情，但我們不希望連這些要幫我們臺灣的小孩做節目的人，還要賣肝、賣熱情、賣愛，這是國家對不起他們，甚至他們也不想再投入相關產業。或者是這樣的預算，可能只能拐騙到某一些自己以為可以做兒少節目的人，然後拿著兒少兩個字就來騙這個預算，我不希望下一次立法院在談小公視預算的時候，我們看到的是那樣的節目。所以我要拜託董事長，我們當然沒有辦法針對每一檔節目，但是我認為我們應該要積極盤點，因為已經做這麼多節目出來，在年度預算我們也都看見了，我們真的看到小公視很努力，但是會不會連小公視裡面自己的行政、人力、資源其實也不足，所以他們在跟外面團隊合作的時候，其實可能也搞不清楚外面團隊現在到底狀況是什麼，也就是說，如果兩端資源都不足，那我們要不要重新來盤點這個預算使用的問題，好嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我就積極的要求，製作兒少節目，我認為文化部跟公共電視都必須要給予更多的支持，所以未來在徵案的時候，開案所編列的預算我認為應該要相對應，可是如果公共電視或小公視自己沒有辦法解決這個問題，必須要透過董事長這樣的專家學者給予更多的建議，或是傾聽來自產業的聲音，知道到底現在發生了什麼事情，我認為你們就應該要更積極召開會議，協助有熱情、有愛，想要投入節目的製作單位，同時也協助小公視裡面所有的行政人員，大家可以坐下來好好一起完成這個節目，好嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：好，跟委員報告，我們今天下午其實就是廣開一個諮詢會議，會邀請各界人士，我相信這些問題我們都願意好好來討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個相關的會議紀錄可以再提供給我們辦公室嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：我想我們這個會議紀錄都會公開的，沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，到時候再請提供給我們辦公室。","最後一題要請部長，董事長謝謝。部長，我想要跟你們說一下，在文化部的所有業務裡面，都會針對兒少設計很多政策跟資源，從館所的使用開始、從閱讀的推廣到文化幣、到劇場，我知道部長上任之後，你非常關心兒少，我也非常感謝部長。可是我想要跟部長說，在文化部有這麼多場館，還有這麼多藝文活動的情況下，竟然到現在都沒有兒少諮詢代表的機制？我認為這對文化部來說是相當的諷刺跟荒謬。在2021年全國文化會議的時候，當時就有人問文化部，故宮在2019年徵選過青年代表，文化部有沒有考慮同樣在美術館、博物館等機關有類似的模式？當時還有人說環保署成立青年參與諮詢小組，文化部要不要來跟進？當時的文化部次長蕭宗煌，也就是現在故宮的院長，他說可以來思考，這是2021年。直到現在2024年，其實行政院早就頒布中央主管機關推動兒少參與國家法制跟決策過程建議作法，所以文化部你們其實是有相關指引可以做的，我不知道為什麼遲遲到現在，我們都看不到文化部有更積極在這件事情上推進？可是如果文化部轄下有這麼多的業務，包含我們剛談的小公視、文化幣、閱讀推廣，還有文策院想要投資的節目，每一個部門的業務都有兒少的角色在裡面，為什麼我們可以沒有兒少諮詢代表？"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員問的問題。我們在2024年有一個文化平權推動會報，透過衛福部的邀請，有兩位兒少代表；這個會報推動完之後，我想我們下一步就會開始朝著您剛才講這個方向推進。事實上，我們雖然沒有這樣一個諮詢機制，但是我們做的每件事情都會透過兒少，直接跟兒童面對面，譬如……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我們要說實話，所有包含您要推動的繪本獎勵1,800萬這件事情，我都很好奇，我知道你們有召開相關專家會議，我就以我最熟悉的繪本來說，如果我們有兒少機制、兒少諮詢委員會，你去問問現在的小孩想看的書跟大人想買的書，根本就是兩件事情！所有博客來上暢銷排行榜，都是大人想要塞給小孩看的書，出版社也都知道要這樣出，但是小孩想看什麼樣的書？大人不真的清楚！所以我認為每一個部會都不可以這麼有自信，連我長期跟兒童工作，我到此刻為止，我都不敢說我百分之百做的事、說的話，都能夠接近兒少此時此刻的需求，更不要講現在是數位原生時代的小孩。所以我認為你們說你們在2024文化平權會議，透過衛福部邀請兩位兒少代表，我覺得這個作法只有60分！如果所有的部會都必須要面對兒少，我認為文化部應該要更積極地組成兒少相關代表會議，你們絕對有機制可以做，我這邊已經提供給你們了，請告訴我，你們多久以內可以完成相關的規劃報告？"],["李部長遠：三個月。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，三個月。那我們就期待看到更積極的作法，不要再只是透過衛福部兒少資料庫好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來我們有請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157306","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157306","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637525ebb8023b888f94a36af624ec870174964aaf8aafe3010ccca7091789dec401d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:53:20 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這都一次性一次性一次性我講的是系統性的嘛吳副主委跟你報告一下"},{"start":306.795,"end":319.943,"text":"向委員報告我是副主委我主管農院跟農家那有關於剛剛委員所提到那個提示人活動其實他是我們在高齡補助這個農總這邊在整體的規劃上面"},{"start":323.225,"end":349.924,"text":"幫榮家所規劃的體制人活動我知道那這個部分啊這個我剛剛有肯定你們我現在講的是系統性對我剛剛就講了好幾個指標出來嘛系統性的來做嘛這個系統性不是說好像散彈打鳥嗎沒有沒有先像有一搭沒一搭的不是啦我先說明一下我們是委託我們榮總高齡醫學中心在這方面做的規劃到我們榮家去落地執行對他只有體制人啊對對沒有不只不只那細節的部分我想這個部分這樣子好不好因為"},{"start":350.956,"end":375.353,"text":"因為我覺得剛剛看主委跟處長好像聽不太懂我在講什麼啦你們可不可以研究一下好不好兩個禮拜給我針對我剛剛講的東西一個研究的結論好不好我們來討論好不好大家都是希望我們農民更健康嘛得到更好的照顧嘛好不好也許你們沒有思考過這一塊但我是覺得可以做啦你們研究一下或是說"},{"start":376.013,"end":383.246,"text":"你把你現在有的資源把它整合也可以嘛是是好不好那我兩個禮拜可不可以給我可以可以沒有問題好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":473,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時53分）麻煩請主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。我是來自於板橋，第一次跟主委見面，因為我們板橋有一個板橋榮家，其實我滿肯定退輔會，因為針對板橋榮家那些住民長輩，時不時會舉辦一些活躍老化的課程，譬如說有一次是跟臺北榮總合作，找一個老師辦體適能的活動，我去看了之後覺得效果非常好，辦完之後長輩們還想說可不可以……他們自己希望那課程可以延長，我覺得這個很不得了，為什麼？因為以前我們在地方政府推動這種活躍老化課程「動健康」的時候，都要拜託長輩，有的時候都要拜託他們出來，像有些男性就比較不喜歡出來，女生出來活動比較多，榮家的課程讓長輩們自動希望那個課程可以延長，我覺得這個算是效果很好。","第二，因為旁邊是臺藝大，榮家也有跟臺藝大合作、辦一些音樂的課程，這都很棒。我想問一下主委，請問一下我們明年的預算裡面有編多少是用在這種幫助榮家，我是說全國，不見得是板橋，有多少是這種活躍老化的課程？是有多少？預算有多少？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我們用在就養這塊的預算，有80億的預算用在這一塊。"],["葉委員元之：活躍老化。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["葉委員元之：針對這個項目。"],["嚴主任委員德發：好，我請就養處處長跟您報告。"],["葉委員元之：是。"],["周處長興國：委員好，我是就業養護處處長周興國。"],["葉委員元之：是。"],["周處長興國：有關你講的文康活動這一部分……"],["葉委員元之：不是文康活動，是活躍老化。"],["周處長興國：對，關於活躍老化，辦理那些活動的話，我們都編列在文康活動活動費裡面，明年有編列稍微多一點……"],["葉委員元之：是，處長，聽你這樣回答，我發現退輔會還沒有跟上我們高齡社會的時代，現在高齡社會來臨，其實各機關都非常重視活躍老化，這個你們同意嗎？"],["周處長興國：同意。"],["葉委員元之：在榮家裡面有很多長輩，其實我覺得榮家應該要有系統性的在做活躍老化，做活躍老化的結果可以讓這些長輩在不管是身體、心理、心靈、人際、健康各方面都有提升，為什麼我覺得榮家有一個先天優勢？因為在活躍老化指標裡面有一個叫做交通的便利性，就是所謂的接近性，你的活動如果辦在太遠的地方，他不願意去，但在他的社區門口辦，或者他家隔壁辦，他很願意參加，今天榮家的長輩就住在那邊，你們也有場地，如果有系統性的舉辦活躍老化課程，我覺得對這些長輩的幫助很大，這個都是有實證研究的。","所以我建議退輔會，我不知道現在還來得及來不及，其實你們應該匡一筆預算來做活躍老化，就是去跟……你們可以找公協會，你們可以跟學校合作，有的學校就在做這個，他們會有一系列的課程，比如在身體上面有體適能，在心理上面、在心靈上面，比如說會有一些藝術性的課程，做完之後，長輩們都覺得心理、心靈都有得到健康的提升，更重要的是，也可以讓他們從房間走出來，多多跟其他的住民互動，培養人際健康，這個是現在各機關都很主要在推的東西。可是我剛剛跟你們詢答過程當中，我發現你只有把它編在文康費用，文康是什麼意思？文康就是大家出來吃吃喝喝，錢花下來不講求任何的活躍老化效果，我覺得非常非常的可惜，所以我不知道主委跟處長能不能研究一下，你們有很多資源，在健康方面有北榮，在心靈各方面……以我們板橋來說，旁邊就有藝術大學──臺藝大，這些都是可以用的資源，只是你們把預算編了，跟他們合作來推動這個東西，我不知道主委或處長你們覺得這個方向可行嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員指導，我們榮家都是朝向家庭化、社區化這個目標來努力，剛剛委員指導的，跟學校、外面社區接軌來辦理這些活動……"],["葉委員元之：等一下……主委，不是活動，是系統性的高齡教育課程，幫助活躍老化……"],["嚴主任委員德發：是、是。"],["葉委員元之：這個思維跟你講的思維完全不一樣。"],["嚴主任委員德發：辦一些課程，了解。"],["葉委員元之：對，就是活躍老化的課程，當然它也可能是以活動的形式來表現，但主要目的是活躍老化，不知道主委或處長可以朝這個方向嗎？"],["周處長興國：是，像板橋榮家，您講的這一段系列性的，事實上各榮家跟周邊的大學都有在做，尤其板橋……我會朝這方面來努力。"],["葉委員元之：好啦，你講的這個都是一次性、一次性，我講的是系統性的。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我請吳副主委跟你報告一下。"],["吳副主任委員志揚：是，向委員報告，我是副主委，我主管榮院跟榮家，有關於剛剛委員所提到的體適能活動，其實它是我們在高齡……補助榮總在整體規劃上面，幫榮家規劃的體適能活動，這個部分……"],["葉委員元之：我知道，這個我剛剛有肯定你們，我現在講的是系統性，我剛剛有講了好幾個指標出來，系統性的來做嘛，不是說好像散彈打鳥，有一搭沒一搭的。"],["吳主任委員志揚：沒有、沒有，先向委員說明一下，我們是委託榮總高齡醫學中心在這方面做規劃，到榮家去落地執行。"],["葉委員元之：對，它只有體適能啊！"],["吳主任委員志揚：沒有，不只、不只，細節的部分，我想……"],["葉委員元之：這樣子好不好──我剛剛看主委跟處長好像聽不太懂我在講什麼，你們可不可以研究一下？針對我剛剛講的東西，兩個禮拜給我一個研究的結論，我們來討論。"],["吳主任委員志揚：是，沒有問題、沒有問題。"],["葉委員元之：大家都是希望榮民更健康，得到更好的照顧。"],["吳主任委員志揚：是。"],["葉委員元之：也許你們之前沒有思考過這一塊，但我覺得可以做，你們研究一下，或是你們把現有的資源整合也可以嘛。"],["吳主任委員志揚：是、是。"],["葉委員元之：兩個禮拜可不可以給我一個報告？"],["吳主任委員志揚：可以、可以，沒有問題。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。嚴主委請回。","接下來我們請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra 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那所以說這個問題就是所以我今天我是點出所有的專業的問題我相信剛剛我提到的三個都是專業的問題那我今天要提出來我是非常希望而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們他總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題你們都可以打臉我沒有問題所以您剛剛講的就是有潛力可以依循嘛那是不是我們將來如果萬一"},{"start":401.573,"end":418.953,"text":"那個檢察總長他有提出非常上述而且成功的話是不是你們就必須依照你說有曾經有因為我還沒有看到這個資料如果有那一定要照這樣做如果沒有那就會發生照我剛剛說的會有幾個小時的空窗這庭長您認同嗎據我所了解"},{"start":421.115,"end":433.485,"text":"目前的最高法院、檢察署這邊還有高院、省級這邊也有在做適當的一些了解跟模擬跟研議我們也提供了相關的資料在94年的相關例子給他們做參考"},{"start":435.458,"end":461.886,"text":"高院審理的話那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎?不是不是 一定是二審法官裁定羈押假設要羈押的時候這個當時裁定之後由二審法官來接押但是在三審的時候他的身份已經做了轉換我們從判決書上面所記載的他是寫在押被告事實上他這個是一個判決確定執行中的被告但是在三審的判決裡面已經把它改成因為撤銷"},{"start":463.186,"end":474.638,"text":"撤銷確定判決之後他身份已經做了轉換他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人而且轉換成是在押被告因為所謂的程序的復活那是誰預知是在押被告"},{"start":475.926,"end":483.469,"text":"最高法院的法官同時認為非常上述有理由同一個時間瞬間高院法官裁定羈押是這樣嗎不是不是他會把卷證交給二審法院那我的問題就在這裡了最高法院認為他身份回歸到被告到"},{"start":503.178,"end":513.426,"text":"二審的法官裁定基拉如果有五分鐘的空檔他跑出去誰有理由攔他五分鐘就好當然他當時是在兼執行的人犯"},{"start":514.969,"end":538.874,"text":"是當時在在監執行他轉換成變成在押在押的身份之後他還沒釋放執行那廳長廳長我懂你的意思但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯對他有核發過指揮書有送監執行但是在本案他叫做執行槍決前的收容我知道對不對那執行槍決前的收容的收容人變成是被告那這個中間"},{"start":541.649,"end":563.574,"text":"這時間差怎麼辦?沒關係如果你們要以那一件為那個基本要來思考怎麼樣去研擬這個新的做法沒問題但是我的責任我是政治人物我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦因為我剛說的如果一個的一個變換身份的決定權是最高法院法官一個是否裁定羈押是高院法官兩個會不會有幾分鐘"},{"start":565.914,"end":588.923,"text":"一分鐘的落差好不好那一分鐘落差被告要跑就可以跑你任何人不能攔他這個部分我們也大概有研議過啦二審法院在釋放之前他可以就通知被告到庭如果他不到庭可能要用進行拘提的方式來做處理所以大概會有你通知要送達你要合法送達嘛就到監所去送達不是"},{"start":591.342,"end":606.133,"text":"我照委員的意思啦這部分我們會依循協定我跟你講啦最高法院認為他已經案件已經撤銷他就不是收容身份嘛那不是收容身份他就是我讓你門打開我要回家那你不能限制他啊我們沒有法定拘束他的自由"},{"start":607.834,"end":626.701,"text":"因為廳長你是刑警法官你一定懂我在講什麼那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼所以這三個問題再麻煩你然後我再請教那個部長部長現在還有幾個問題啦就是說因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年的規定"},{"start":629.122,"end":648.933,"text":"他們可能會之前已經積壓過很長一段時間了所以他們應該可以折抵蠻久了那這樣子有可能他們假設將來被判無期徒刑的話可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊那他們現在關在裡面那些死犯基本上表現都很良好那這個的話是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑"},{"start":657.97,"end":682.948,"text":"其實是可以折抵嗎?對,依法可以折抵因為它可以折抵嘛那這部分我想這部分如果說還沒有修法的話當然是可以我們可以從嚴審核嘛從嚴審核那另外我想我們目前在修法這個修法我們把那個重大的特殊的暴力的犯罪包括故意殺人我懂,部長這塊我知道這塊我知道但是呢我必須跟您講一件事"},{"start":687.952,"end":706.363,"text":"不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得所以你要今天修一個法要求到溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定我想也許有困難除非你對這37位實行犯法務部、司法院你們提出一個專法就是針對這37位實行犯因為這是我想破頭腦想到的大家就用專法去解決"},{"start":707.344,"end":723.976,"text":"部長因為我從頭到尾我都不跟你們談政治我只談法律的專業那有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防那我覺得我們不甩他我們就談法律所以今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前"},{"start":724.836,"end":751.153,"text":"羈押的期間他已經快要可以申請假釋了那只要快要可以申請假釋那將來假釋的評斷標準你當然可以從嚴審核但是就有可能他們假釋出獄的這個機率就跑出來了我今天要點出的是這個問題部長還有另外一個將來你們可能會面對到就是因為收容這個行為將來以前是為了槍決前所以收容他所以沒有折抵刑期這問題反正都要槍斃了"},{"start":752.074,"end":769.334,"text":"但是呢在未來因為這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話那一定會很多人權團體出來說那收容期間也是限制他自由為什麼不能責理刑期他的形式跟羈押會很類似因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛"},{"start":771.176,"end":791.908,"text":"但是現在變成這樣了 變成收容會變成一個新問題所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體突然跟大家吵說他收容期間有人收容十幾年了可以要記錄刑期的話那這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的這個計算這個是法務部將來一定會面對到"},{"start":797.992,"end":804.711,"text":"我跟兩位報告其實我剛提到了這五個點全部是專業的論述的點再麻煩你們能夠"},{"start":806.454,"end":835.007,"text":"禮卿﹚那如果不禮卿的話這五個點都是這些人將來可能回到社會的可能性都在這裡我們是不認為是會回到社會的部長部長我跟你談法律你跟我談不可能這個是刑事通常救濟的程序這個有別嘛那大概部長部長你今天講的話全國的檢察官法官都在看您是我檢察官的大前輩大學長我現在依法跟你論法然後你跟我說"},{"start":836.087,"end":864.67,"text":"不可能啊如果這樣子的話因為像那個像剛才委員有提到就是有這個人權團體這邊我想這部分這是在執行前的一個縮容這個這個目前法律目前法律沒有記錄不能折抵嘛對那那個憲判意思8號也是說我們修監獄刑刑法那有關你那個所以我一直說我們是希望把這個做一個明確不能折抵的所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗所以才會"},{"start":865.931,"end":889.942,"text":"出了一個憲判制解決的問題比創造的問題創造的問題比解決問題多出很多啦就是這樣那我從15我光是稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的馬上要解決而且每一個都是法律問題每一個都可以讓法律系的學生或老師可以好好的討論的一個問題啦那部長我知道你也有你的難處你不方便講一些話但我在這邊就必須講這些就是"},{"start":892.224,"end":908.405,"text":"實施法實務上面的專業問題必須要解決否則即使只有5分鐘的落差的空窗期被告都可以要求我現在要離開他跑給你追或是像我們剛剛講的根本就不符合我國現行法101或101之1的羈押要件啊"},{"start":909.586,"end":931.644,"text":"那你怎麼押他?法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押?這都是問題那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚或是我是那些死刑犯的律師我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了我可以引出一大堆的判決判例來告訴你為什麼這個東西不能羈押以前的法官都不押憑什麼你現在認為這個人有逃亡之虞所以這都是問題啦"},{"start":934.389,"end":936.852,"text":"我希望提的幾個東西跟大家講一下那個檢察署署長就麻煩那個"},{"start":948.052,"end":973.095,"text":"要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個"},{"start":974.116,"end":975.197,"text":"移工及青少年淪為詐騙"},{"start":1004.476,"end":1006.919,"text":"我跟你們報告一件事他就是利用大家這個心態"},{"start":1018.376,"end":1037.574,"text":"九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導好嗎"},{"start":1038.895,"end":1063.286,"text":"就是如果不明包裹你要去搜像我也搜過阿他是寄我弟弟的名字阿那我去幫我弟弟代收阿應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦對對類似像這樣先做這樣的確認就是宣導再麻煩你們能夠宣導因為會有很多這種黑數大家覺得一千多塊他不想浪費時間去包那還有就是那個"},{"start":1065.787,"end":1094.627,"text":"政期局我一個建議就是你們那個都一起好了我一起講好了因為時間的關係數位因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是那個虛擬貨幣那虛擬貨幣目前你們管那個有來聲明的聲報的是只有26家業者但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣的交易都是國外的交易所那你們完全管不到"},{"start":1095.627,"end":1113.773,"text":"那這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦好不好不然完全沒有管所以我在這邊就直接講啦因為下禮拜我跟張志文跟林沛講我們會開一個打詐的記者會那我們會想看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來因為民眾不在乎被告判多久他只想錢要不要的回來"},{"start":1114.873,"end":1133.928,"text":"然後我們也希望說那個金管會能夠在打詐專法你們是那個負責這個金融聯防機制的那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢然後上次那個金管會主委有跟我說報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位"},{"start":1134.788,"end":1150.194,"text":"不夠盡責或今天的報告也有那要告訴我們是哪一些單位不盡責我們要去追一下嘛然後那個依法遵循聲明的26家這26家到底掌握了國內多少虛擬貨幣的交易量國內被詐騙的多少比例是國內"},{"start":1151.314,"end":1174.714,"text":"的業者請理解一下還有就是指揮中心指揮中心有說到去年6月到今年10月要回了24億的被詐騙金額但是你們要給我一個資料就是說這24億是被告都付完了嗎因為據我所知以及我以前在失誤的經驗非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過"},{"start":1175.595,"end":1196.458,"text":"所以這24億是真的都講付完了嗎或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來就沒有拿沒有繼續支付那被害人還是被騙然後等於是被第二次騙而且這一次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人因為當事人以為有政府的保證被告就會還我錢結果和解書簽了以後"},{"start":1197.574,"end":1221.663,"text":"他還兩期之後全部拿不回來那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的所以這個東西到底拿回多少錢也必須給我一個報告而不是給我說一個24億要回來因為這是騙人的這絕對我跟你講我在15屆待過不要拿這個來騙我最後就是我要提一個"},{"start":1224.816,"end":1245.055,"text":"明年的預算的部分因為我們這是預算會期就是預算的部分我們人民去年被騙了88億然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億所以我希望是有所作為不然88加73國人被騙了161億"},{"start":1249.179,"end":1277.678,"text":"就變成你編的這些預算國人被第二次騙錢啦就之前網路很多人在笑因為看到提73億啊然後有人留言就是哈哈又被騙了那個73億所以不要讓人民有這個想法尤其是那個警政署因為你們的那個花了很多錢6.6億的分析系統還有很多5億的那個一些硬體設備當然我知道這個是因應修法的關係但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為"},{"start":1278.64,"end":1281.028,"text":"否則就像我剛說的原來我們被騙了161億不是88億好 謝謝各位 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":838,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時35分）我們麻煩李廳長還有鄭部長、張署長。"],["主席：李廳長、鄭部長、張署長。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有金管會證期局黃副局長。"],["主席：有請黃副局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：我等一下有一些問題，還是要麻煩像數發部或NCC，你們不用上來，但是稍微也要瞭解一下我的問題，還有馬次長也要麻煩您，但先不用上臺。","前面我可能先提幾個問題，待會我會再切入今天的主題，我先請教李廳長。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：李廳長，剛剛黃國昌委員以及謝龍介委員都有一直提到死刑的部分嘛，我之前有提出了幾個問題，也是一直在呼籲，而且我已經呼籲兩個月了，因為您是刑庭法官出身嘛，我相信一定非常清楚整個狀況。但因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師側翼，甚至以前還當過法官，他出來講，對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點，或我們在講東、他在講西，但是他講的那些東西會被很多媒體拿去誤導人民。像有人就一直講，羈押期間可以重新起算，這大法官講……問題是這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中，他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題，或者是什麼原因我不知道，但是誤導人民是不對的，我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員，都應該有義務要告訴人民真相嘛！因為這幾個問題我已經一再公開，也不會是突襲你們，我就再請教一下，您是刑庭法官出身的，一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年、二十幾年，而且都已經是判決確定，查完的案子，那有什麼串證的問題嗎？第二個，如果他今天說你讓我出去，我也同意被限制出境，我也同意戴電子腳鐐，你要我每天去派出所報到，甚至他在裡面關了20年，他根本沒有錢逃亡啊！請問一下，他湮滅證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎？請問前刑庭法官。"],["李廳長釱任：我們就不講個案啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我不談個案。"],["李廳長釱任：如果以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話，關了20、30年之後，案件已經確定了，你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：是，那逃亡呢？"],["李廳長釱任：至於逃亡部分，可能就是人性的問題啊，如果我犯的是個重罪，也許我沒有錢，但沒有錢並不代表我不會逃亡。"],["吳委員宗憲：我懂，廳長，我剛剛有說，他說我願意被限制出境，我願意戴電子腳鐐，我願意每天到派出所簽到3次，這個都是實務常見的嘛。"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去，沒有錢「坐桶子」出去，請問一下他有重大逃亡可能性嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：這個可能還是要個案的判斷，因為他跟其他家庭的連結，或是其他……都有可能。"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，我可以接受你這個答案，但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛！"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛，當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候，變成被告身分，唯一能夠關他的就是羈押，就只有這個方式，但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理，完全不符合第一百零一條，你說有反覆實施之虞嗎？第一百零一條之一，也沒有，他被關在裡面20年，你怎麼證明他有反覆實施之虞？所以現行我國羈押的要件，這37位有可能，我不說全部好了，就有可能很多人根本不符合，所以這個麻煩司法院注意。","第二個，我們羈押，一個審級就是15個月，很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月，請問廳長有沒有可能？"],["李廳長釱任：委員所講的這部分的確是有可能，但是我們也在努力。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我懂。"],["李廳長釱任：有關於羈押精神鑑定……"],["吳委員宗憲：我們就是冀望法官能夠積極努力，但是實務上面一個審級審理超過15個月的比比皆是，我想刑庭法官不可能否認這個事實對吧？"],["李廳長釱任：如果是羈押中的案件的話，刑庭法官都會優先處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我懂，但是有可能會審理超過15個月，這個是有可能的，對不對？"],["李廳長釱任：就通案來講，我們儘量不要讓它超過15個月。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，但是是有可能嘛！我們只能儘量不要，對不對？"],["李廳長釱任：我們不能排除，不能排除。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以這邊就是問題了。再請教廳長一個問題，如果檢察總長非常上訴成功，這些人會從收容人的身分轉換為被告，對吧？"],["李廳長釱任：沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，現在我們能夠關他們，是叫做收容，執行槍決前的收容，所以我們可以關著他，那當他變回普通法院審理的被告時，必須羈押才有可能把他關起來，對吧？"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：收容到最高法院認為非常上訴有理由，讓他們變成被告的身分，到高院法官裁定羈押，這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期，他如果說：「我要回家。」怎麼辦？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分，據我所了解，在民國94年的時候，有一個台非字124號，當時是憲法第582號解釋所引起的原因事實，因而提起的非常上訴，當時非常上訴的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審判決一併撤銷掉，當時也有做身分的轉換，把它轉換成在押的被告，由二審來接押，這是民國94年當時的處理情形，這是有前例的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，所以這個問題就是，我今天是點出所有的專業問題，我相信剛剛我提到了三個都是專業的問題，我今天提出來是非常希望，而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道，而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽，今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題，你們都可以打臉我，沒有問題。","您剛剛講的，就是有前例可以依循嘛，將來如果檢察總長有提出非常上訴而且成功的話，是不是你們就必須依照……你說曾經有，我還沒有看到這個資料，如果有，那一定要照這樣做，如果沒有，那就會發生我剛剛說的，會有幾個小時的空窗，廳長您認同吧？"],["李廳長釱任：我了解。據我所了解，目前最高法院檢察署還有高院原審級這邊也有在做一些適當的了解、模擬跟研議。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以如果……"],["李廳長釱任：我們也提供了相關的資料，再提供94年的相關例子給他們參考。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天他要回到高院審理的話，那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：不是、不是，一定是二審法官裁定羈押，是假設啦，假設要羈押的時候……"],["吳委員宗憲：對啊，那你剛剛說的這個呢？"],["李廳長釱任：當時裁定之後，由二審法官來接押，但是在三審的時候，他的身分已經做了轉換，我們從判決書上面所記載的來看，它是寫在押被告，事實上他是一個判決確定執行中的被告，但是在三審判決已經把他改了，因為撤銷確定判決之後，他身分已經做了轉換，他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人，轉換成在押被告，所謂程序的復活……"],["吳委員宗憲：那是誰諭知在押被告？誰諭知他為在押被告？"],["李廳長釱任：在最高法院當時就諭知……"],["吳委員宗憲：那誰諭知羈押？"],["李廳長釱任：二審諭知羈押，他身分回到在押被告的身分，這身分的轉換……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以最高法院的法官同時認為非常上訴有理由，同一個時間，瞬間高院法官裁定羈押，是這樣嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：不是、不是，他會把卷證交給二審法院……"],["吳委員宗憲：那我的問題就在這裡了，最高法院認為他身分回歸到被告，到二審的法官裁定羈押，如果有5分鐘的空檔，他跑出去，誰有理由攔他？5分鐘就好。"],["李廳長釱任：他當時是在監執行的人犯，當時在監執行，轉換變成在押的身分之後，他還沒釋放之前，二審法院會……"],["吳委員宗憲：廳長，我懂你的意思了，但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情，您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯……"],["李廳長釱任：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：他有核發過指揮書，有送監執行，但是在本案叫做執行槍決前的收容，對不對？"],["李廳長釱任：我知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：執行槍決前收容的收容人變成被告，那這個中間的時間差怎麼辦？沒關係，如果你們要以那一件為基礎，思考怎麼樣研擬這個新的作法，沒問題，但我是政治人物，我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡，再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦。","我剛剛說的，如果一個變換身分的決定權是最高法院法官，一個是否裁定羈押的是高院法官，兩個會不會有幾分鐘的落差？1分鐘好不好？那1分鐘的落差，被告要跑就可以跑，任何人不能攔他。"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分我們大概有研議過，二審法院在釋放之前就可以通知被告到庭，如果他不到庭，可能要用逕行拘提的方式來做處理，所以大概會有……"],["吳委員宗憲：你通知要送達啊！你要合法送達嘛。"],["李廳長釱任：到監所去送達。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是……"],["李廳長釱任：我知道委員的意思，這部分我們會依循前例……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，最高法院認為案件已經撤銷，他就不是收容身分嘛。"],["李廳長釱任：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是收容身分，他就說：「你門打開，我要回家。」那你不能限制他啊！我們沒有法定拘束他的自由。我再跟廳長說，因為廳長您是刑庭法官，你一定懂我在講什麼，那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了，因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼，所以這三個問題再麻煩您。","我再請教部長，現在還有幾個問題，因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年規定，他們可能之前已經羈押過很長一段時間了，所以他們應該可以折抵滿久的，假設他們將來被判無期徒刑的話，可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊，那他們現在關在裡面，那些死刑犯基本上表現都很良好，這樣的話，是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑，其實是可以折抵嘛，羈押是……"],["吳委員宗憲：對、對，依法可以折抵。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為他可以折抵，這部分如果還沒有修法的話，我們當然可以從嚴審核。另外，我們目前也在修法，我們把重大的、特殊的、暴力的犯罪，包括故意殺人……"],["吳委員宗憲：我懂，部長，這一塊我知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是排除第七十七條，羈押折抵的適用……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我必須跟你講一件事，不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得，所以今天要修一個法，要求他溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定，我想也許有困難，除非法務部、司法院提出一個專法針對這37位死刑犯，這是我想破頭腦想到的，大概就是用專法去解決。","部長，我從頭到尾都不跟你們談政治，我只談法律的專業，有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防，我們不甩他，我們就談法律。","今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前羈押的期間，他已經快要可以申請假釋了，只要快要可以申請假釋，那將來假釋的評斷標準當然可以從嚴審核，但他們就有可能假釋出獄，這機率就跑出來了，我今天要點出的是這個問題。","部長，還有另外一個問題，將來你們可能會面對到，關於收容這個行為，以前是槍決前所以收容他，所以沒有折抵刑期這個問題，反正都要槍斃了，但是未來這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話，一定會有很多人權團體出來說，收容期間也是限制他自由，為什麼不能折抵刑期？它的形式跟羈押會很類似，因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛，但是現在變成這樣了，收容會變成一個新問題，所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下，如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體出來跟大家吵收容期間……有人收容十幾年了，要記錄刑期的話，這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的計算，這是法務部將來一定會面對到的。","我跟兩位報告，其實我剛提到了這五個點，全部是專業論述的點，再麻煩你們能夠釐清，如果不釐清的話，這五個點都是將來這些人可能回到社會的可能性，部長你有什麼……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不認為會回到社會啦……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我跟你談法律，你跟我談不可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是刑事通常救濟的程序，這個有別嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你今天講的話，全國的檢察官、法官都在看，你是我檢察官的大前輩、大學長，我現在依法跟你論法，然後你跟我說不可能，如果這樣子的話……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為剛才委員有提到人權團體，我想這是在執行前的收容，目前的法律……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，目前法律沒有記錄。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不能折抵嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：憲判字8號也是修監獄行刑法，有關於受刑人……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我一直說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們希望把不能折抵的這個做一個明確……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗，所以才會出了一個憲判字，創造的問題比解決的問題多出很多啦，就是這樣！我光是從實務稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的要馬上解決，而且每一個都是法律問題，每一個都是可以讓法律系學生或老師好好討論的問題。部長，我知道你也有你的難處，你不方便講一些話，但我在這邊就必須講，這些就是司法實務上面的專業問題，必須要解決，否則即使是只有5分鐘落差的空窗期，被告都可以要求我現在要離開，他跑給你追；或是像我們剛剛講的，根本就不符合我國現行法第一百零一條或第一百零一條之一的羈押要件，那你怎麼押他？法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押？這都是問題。那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚，或是我是那些死刑犯的律師，我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了，我可以引出一大堆的判決、判例來告訴你，為什麼這個東西不能羈押，以前的法官都不押，憑什麼你現在認為此人有逃亡之虞，所以，這都是問題啦！","因為用掉太多時間，最後問題我都不問了，我就把我希望提的幾件事跟大家講一下。首先麻煩警政署署長要注意一下，最近小額詐騙非常多，大多是利用收包裹的方式，就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊，然後你繳給超商之後錢就拿不回來，最近這類的案子非常多，非常多人都有來跟我講，很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了，他不會去報案，因為太麻煩了，所以，署長，要麻煩宣導一下這個部分，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：好的、好的，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：然後另外就是說，因為這些超商代收的貨款，他們通常都是跟資訊科技公司合作，你們去調資料，兩、三個禮拜公司都還沒有回復，以現在狀況，如果超商撥款給那個業者的話，錢馬上就被轉走了，如果依照現在索資的時間要這麼長，民眾的錢追不回來，跟署長報告一件事情……"],["張署長榮興：這個我要跟委員報告一下，你如果知道這是一個詐騙，這個錢就會被凍起來，超商就不會匯去那邊，你如果有報案……"],["吳委員宗憲：是，署長，我跟您報告一件事，他就是利用大家這個心態，900、1,000、1,200，他真的不會去報案，因為報案他還要去做筆錄，將來可能還要被傳喚出庭，所以大部分的人都是算了。一堆人跟我談過這個事，我問了沒有人報過案，所以這會是一個黑數，所以我想至於面對黑數，我們的作法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我會加強宣導。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是如果不明包裹你要去收，像我也收過，他是寄我弟弟的名字，我去幫我弟弟代收……"],["張署長榮興：應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，類似像這樣。"],["張署長榮興：先做這樣的確認，就是宣導這個部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，再麻煩你們能夠宣導，因為會有很多這種黑數，大家覺得才一千多塊，不想浪費時間去報案。"],["張署長榮興：好的，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有就是證期局，我有一個建議，我一起講好了，因為時間的關係。因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是虛擬貨幣，虛擬貨幣目前有來聲明、申報的只有26家業者，但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣交易都是透過國外的交易所，你們完全管不到，這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦，好不好？"],["黃副局長厚銘：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：不然我們等於完全沒有管。我在這邊就直接講，下禮拜二我跟張智倫及林沛祥，我們會開一個打詐的記者會，我們會想看看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來，因為民眾不在乎被告判多久，他只想知道錢要不要得回來。然後，我們也希望金管會能夠在打詐專法……你們是負責金融聯防機制的，那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢。","上次金管會主委有跟我說，報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位可能不夠盡責，或今天的報告也有，那要告訴我們是哪一些單位不盡責，我們要去追一下嘛。然後依法遵循聲明的26家，這26家到底掌握了國內多少虛擬貨幣的交易量，國內被詐騙的多少比例是國內的業者，請瞭解一下。","還有就是指揮中心，指揮中心說去年6月到今年10月要回了24億被詐騙的金額，但是你們要給我一個資料，就是這24億被告都付完了嗎？因為據我所知，以及我以前在實務界的經驗，非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你，但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過，所以這24億是真的都付完了嗎？或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來沒有繼續支付，被害人還是被騙，等於是被騙第二次，而且這次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人，因為當事人以為有政府的保證，被告就會還他錢，結果和解書簽了以後，他還兩期之後全部拿不回來，那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的？所以這部分到底拿回多少錢，也必須給我一個報告，而不是跟我說要回來24億，因為這是騙人的，這絕對是！我跟你講，我在實務界待過，不要拿這個來騙我。","最後我要提一個明年預算的部分，因為我們這會期是預算會期，預算的部分，我們人民去年被騙了88億，然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億，所以我希望是有所作為，不然88加73等於國人被騙了161億，就變成你編的這些預算，國人被第二次騙錢。之前網路有很多人在笑，因為看到提73億的預算，然後有人留言「哈哈又被騙了73億」，所以不要讓人民有這個想法。尤其是警政署，因為你們的打詐花了很多錢，6.6億的分機系統，還有5億的硬體設備，當然我知道這是因應修法的關係，但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為，否則就像我剛剛說的，原來我們被騙了161億，不是88億。好，謝謝各位，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：謝謝，麻煩下一位請鍾佳濱委員。那因為我們剛……不好意思、不好意思，是徐巧芯委員。我們剛剛有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席累了嗎？要不要喝蠻牛？"],["主席：沒事、沒事，剛剛講完。我們剛剛有宣告，就是在鍾佳濱委員質詢完畢之後休息5分鐘，很早就已經講了。還是你們兩個要對調？"],["吳委員思瑤：不用、不用、不用。"],["主席：OK，好，謝謝。請徐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157304","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157304","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752fae7947a653f3b2e36af624ec870174940b19c4a6d232d910c61b53b4db24b935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:46:44 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比如說死神無人機我們就比國外買的 別的國家買的貴了好幾倍啊 難道不是嗎死神無人機那時候是你在當部長的時候買的嘛 死神無人機是不是應該就是我剛剛跟委員報告 你的作戰需求 打的需求 因為不可否認 有些高科技精密武器裝備你不能不相信我就問你一句話啦"},{"start":157.978,"end":165.142,"text":"是不是面對美國強武器採購就是他說了算連這個50號也是他說了算應該不是這樣子我跟你講這句話是因為顧立雄告訴我這樣子啦欸 我在問你這個啦所以這個研討方說不是我們有談判籌碼然後呢顧立雄說我們沒有談判籌碼這個是我要問的啦你不知道我的陷阱在這裡喔"},{"start":185.871,"end":186.251,"text":"現在的情勢跟以前不一樣"},{"start":215.285,"end":215.525,"text":"請問你的任內校招辦過幾次"},{"start":227.441,"end":245.106,"text":"教召教育召集教召我認定有辦過教召幾次是現在有一些精進的一些措施時間也加長了然後頻次也增加了對現在好像可以訓練武器嘛是不是對訓練打靶什麼之類的射擊對射擊嘛你那個教召的地點都選在哪裡戰術位置所謂的戰術位置對戰術位置就是你作戰在哪裡就選在哪裡教召是"},{"start":257.11,"end":285.264,"text":"有沒有在大學裡面印象中因為這是後備指揮部底下跟後備指揮部也是國防部管的後備指揮部王牧部長不是每一件事都非常清楚這個你要了解啊這麼重要的事情叫招這麼重要的事情以後如果老公要來的話我們要動員我們的後備軍人要去上前線的這麼重要的事情國防部長你說的我不知道"},{"start":286.184,"end":295.969,"text":"我講他有他的一個考量應該是戰術位置在那附近戰術位置在哪裡就定哪裡好這句話非常好那為什麼選擇政大我們政大校友大家瘋炮而且問了教育部長教育部長不知道教育部長不知道"},{"start":308.939,"end":314.564,"text":"阿民進黨不是高舉黨政軍要退出校園嗎?阿軍隊怎麼開進校園?裡面還有射擊咧?阿幾百人在政黨校園裡面要待一個禮拜以上怎麼會這樣子呢?怎麼這麼離譜呢?開倒車啊!"},{"start":328.578,"end":339.901,"text":"沿德國不當國防部長以後我們一些都亂了套 開倒車啊 郭立雄開倒車軍隊大喇喇的開進大學的校園大學校園是多麼敏感的地方啊黨政軍要退出校園結果我們現在軍隊後備的叫召大喇喇的開進大學校園不能夠接受啦"},{"start":357.498,"end":357.818,"text":"主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時46分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請退輔會的嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主委好。有關雷神被美國的國會監察體系查出來有弊端，這裡面有詐欺的事情，退錢了，總共退臺灣52億，雷神這個事情在你國防部的任期內嗎？是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員剛剛講的這件事，我不是很清楚，52億。"],["賴委員士葆：52億呀！今天各大媒體都講了雷神有個弊端，然後美國國會查出來了，說總共要賠好幾億美金，其中有一部分是臺灣的，這個時候是你當部長的時候嗎？不是？不知道？回去查一下好嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我回去了解一下。"],["賴委員士葆：回去了解一下，我們要知道你的一些看法。請問過去你在當部長的時候，我們跟美國軍購的價格都不能殺價，是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，關於軍購這一塊，我們有我們的機制，就是它一定要在我們的五年建軍計畫裡面，然後經過部內有3個系統，看是不是符合作戰需求，這是第一關，符合作戰需求才會進來；第二個就系分，系分就是委員所指導的它的價格、它的市場，會做一個比較，不是一家；系分完最後第三部分才是投綱，去找錢要買、編預算買。所以這三個步驟，我當部長的時候……因為我離開我不知道，但這三個步驟是一定要有的，要經過這個程序。"],["賴委員士葆：你那個是在講過程，我是在講結果，外界看到的是為什麼我們買的武器都比國外貴了這麼多？就變成我們好像一點籌碼都沒有，就好像他講多少就是什麼，比如說死神無人機，我們就比國外買的、比別的國家買的貴了好幾倍，難道不是嗎？死神無人機那時候是你在當部長的時候買的嗎？死神無人機，是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：應該就是我剛剛跟委員報告的，這是作戰需求、打的需求，因為不可否認，有些高科技機密武器裝備你不能不向美軍買……"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你一句話，是不是面對向美國武器採購的部分，就是它說了算，連這個52億也是它說了算？"],["嚴主任委員德發：應該不是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講這句話，是因為顧立雄告訴是我這樣子，所以我就問你這個啦！所以嚴德發說不是，我們有談判籌碼，但是顧立雄說我們沒有談判籌碼，這是我要問的啦！可以有點籌碼嗎？臺灣買這麼多武器，結果通通它說了算，剛才我為什麼一開始想問雷神賠多少？也是它說了算，我們一點皮條都沒有，也不敢去查，52億多開心啊！高興得要死！有錢可以拿就好，還敢講什麼？所以主委不同意顧部長講的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：現在的情勢跟以前不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你洩底牌，你就不必替他講話了。","第二個，請問在你任內，教召辦過幾次？你擔任國防部長的時候。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我沒聽清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：教召。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我任內有辦過教召。"],["賴委員士葆：幾次？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，現在有一些精進的措施，時間也加長了，頻次也增加了。"],["賴委員士葆：對，現在好像可以訓練武器嘛，對不對？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對。"],["賴委員士葆：訓練打靶什麼之類的。"],["嚴主任委員德發：射擊的。"],["賴委員士葆：射擊嘛？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對。"],["賴委員士葆：你教召的地點都選在哪裡？"],["嚴主任委員德發：戰術位置，所謂的戰術位置……"],["賴委員士葆：戰術位置？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對，戰術位置就是你在哪裡作戰，就選在哪裡教召。"],["賴委員士葆：是，有沒有在大學裡面？印象中。"],["嚴主任委員德發：因為這是後備指揮部底下……"],["賴委員士葆：後備指揮部也是國防部管的。"],["嚴主任委員德發：國防部部長不是每一件事都非常清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：這個你要了解啊！這麼重要的事情，教召這麼重要的事情，以後如果老共要來的話，我們要動員我們的後備軍人上前線，這麼重要的事情，國防部長卻說我不知道……"],["嚴主任委員德發：我想他有他的考量，應該是戰術位置在那附近……"],["賴委員士葆：戰術位置在哪裡，你就定哪裡？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是。"],["賴委員士葆：好，這句話非常好！那為什麼選擇政大？我們政大校友大家開砲了，而且問了教育部長，教育部長說不知道，民進黨不是高舉黨政軍要退出校園嗎？軍隊怎麼開進校園裡面，還有射擊？幾百人在政大校園裡面要待一個禮拜以上，怎麼會這樣子呢？怎麼這麼離譜呢？開倒車啊！嚴德發不當國防部長以後，我們一切都亂了套，開倒車啊！顧立雄開倒車，軍隊大喇喇的開進大學校園，大學校園是多麼敏感的地方，黨政軍要退出校園，結果現在軍隊後備的教召大喇喇的開進政大、開進大學校園，這不能夠接受啦！部長，我講得有道理吧？"],["嚴主任委員德發：他肯定有他作戰需求的考量。"],["賴委員士葆：你同不同意我講的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員剛剛講的是有道理。"],["賴委員士葆：很有道理嘛？就你嚴德發認同賴士葆講的嘛！謝謝啦！這樣可以啦！"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，嚴主委請回。接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra 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:39.037,"text":"委員好部長好今天的主題是文化部114年的預算案詢答我們都知道依據博物館法第9條博物館應該依據英本專業倫理確認文物標本藝術品等收藏品質全員及取得方式之合法性先請教一下部長據你所知博物館要合法取得藏品有哪幾種管道"},{"start":41.907,"end":64.196,"text":"一方面是我們自己收購,一方面是別人捐贈。很好,謝謝部長。確實,一開始我們在這個相關的這個要點裡頭,那國立台灣歷史博物館整理得很好。它的藏品取得方式,第一個就是您提到的購買,第二個捐贈,再來轉移採集交換。接著請問部長,114年度文化部所屬的11個博物館和美術館當中,"},{"start":66.175,"end":70.68,"text":"有沒有哪幾個有編列所謂的採買或購買收藏品的預算?11個博物館和美術館應該都有編吧"},{"start":77.478,"end":78.058,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":99.309,"end":103.614,"text":"adequate to the current state of affairs in the United States."},{"start":118.359,"end":145.362,"text":"因為我們總體預算不高所以在分配上像國立台灣博物館這種我們就編一些預算繼續購買那其他就使用原來我們購買的東西我想其實我們的這個質詢您的備詢其實有一個很好的這個互動的機制啦其實我們也在協作我們也幫您整理了其實近年來各個博物館購置產品的情況根據文化部提供給我們的資料這是歷史資料"},{"start":146.002,"end":165.164,"text":"近3年來文化部所屬的11個博物館及美術館裏面居然有7間購買藏品。您剛剛所提到的第一個就提到的藏品增加的方法竟然是零件。兩年是零件的一共有8間。請問部長您了解博物館購藏文物掛零的原因嗎?"},{"start":166.721,"end":183.505,"text":"為什麼會這樣?因為掛鈴嘛!所以他們就乾脆就不編啦!他們就不編啦!因為你剛剛問的是線上購償?沒有沒有沒有,我現在在問的是實際,就全部就購償啦!是總購償喔!上面寫總購償喔!"},{"start":188.743,"end":194.625,"text":"所以部長我現在是在幫您抽絲剝繭就是說其實您一開始就是說購買產品是很重要的來源嘛那結果呢我們說有多少這個這個場館是有編列這個預算來購買然後呢我們得到的答案是有的沒有"},{"start":206.368,"end":206.408,"text":"閱讀檢查結果"},{"start":231.889,"end":259.062,"text":"相關人士告訴我們答案是藏品太貴這只是一個部分博物館的預算有可能買不起但是這只是一部分現行文物、文化部所屬博物館的文物購藏程序太繁瑣這也是其中一個部分等到確認要買的時候藏品早就被人家買走我們來看一下文化部所屬博物館的購藏流程第一個你要先確認經費額度第二個我是很想朗讀但真的有點長但你大概可以理解"},{"start":260.063,"end":274.143,"text":"當這些東西要有專家討論、審議、通過,動完的時候這個產品也輪不到你來買了。所以我想這種流程就導致我們整體展品購藏的機制。"},{"start":274.804,"end":295.452,"text":""},{"start":295.632,"end":324.533,"text":"新的專案其中一個114年度的預算案重建台灣史2.0社會發展計畫編列了八千萬元要籌設還只是籌設還沒開始蓋國家級現代美術館這八千萬裡面有沒有夠長的預算難道我們的國家級的現代美術館裡面的展品都要靠捐贈都要靠轉移嗎請部長說明那如果我們過去是這樣的經歷我們是這樣的一個習慣國家美術館展品來源要如何規劃"},{"start":327.483,"end":351.237,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":352.599,"end":364.523,"text":"沒關係 如果有就提供出來那一千萬夠不夠我想這個也要評估一下這國家級嘛 對不對沒關係待會解釋我總體來講想要講就是說希望部長了解一下相關構藏的辦法是不是讓流程可以更加的激動與彈性否則我們歷史一直在演進巨輪一直在推結果我們現在的管藏是沒有流動的就是說沒有新的管藏進來"},{"start":379.947,"end":400.67,"text":"台灣我們這種對文化的學習其實受到影響了那當然您剛剛有提到線上沒錯阿巴手的這個藝術報告裡面就提到線上競標其實市場一直增加尤其在COVID-19之後那這一次呢我們其實也看到啦阿台配有跟像Artacy、蘇富比都有合作"},{"start":401.351,"end":411.517,"text":"所以我想線上購藏有沒有可能文化部也研議作為博物館購買藏品的方式之一你會節省掉很多開支這個有沒有可能來研議一下"},{"start":413.626,"end":436.618,"text":"在這個之前我們完全沒有這個部分,我想我們來研究看看。對,因為你這樣人員可以減少去出訪,也可以透過網路的方式來增加館長。提到就是說你如果有線上購買,其實現在也有線上展廳,我也必須要說有的博物館做得非常好,像是國立歷史博物館的360度的環景導覽就做得很棒。"},{"start":437.358,"end":454.24,"text":"但是呢有一些線上展覽則是從2021年以後就沒有更新那當然剛剛那也是啦有點可惜希望再給予鼓勵那新館長洪世祐館長剛剛上任期待可以重現這個線上展廳的這個建制甚至再更進一步啦"},{"start":454.82,"end":466.868,"text":"當然國立台灣史前博物館就稍微比較潦草除了文字簡介以外就沒有其他內容我們也期待蔡正良館長要拿出具體的作為我想都在現場我想我們是鼓勵不要讓這個線上布展來荒廢接下來我們審查114年度預算的時候各位博物館各個博物館只要有心去做這些線上的這個行為能夠"},{"start":478.456,"end":504.616,"text":""},{"start":504.616,"end":526.613,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":526.733,"end":545.336,"text":"那有十幾家公司得獎,但是我們追溯了一下發現,其實目前為止12個優秀得入選的提案裡面,真正被10件得到後續政府的合作也好,或推薦也好,或者把提案再擴大也好,只有兩件。"},{"start":546.397,"end":573.072,"text":"所以我希望部長能不能我們給予新興藝術的創作者多一點關注投入資源持續追蹤他們的後續發展不要我們三億花掉了找到一些不錯的團隊跟人員結果我們沒有後續的福祉這部分部長可不可以來允諾一下好沒問題第二件事情真的是拜託部長我們一起努力這次年輕藝術家因為這個不幸出事的事件真的有非常多藝文圈的朋友感嘆"},{"start":574.873,"end":598.758,"text":"關於文化藝術工作者,其實很多是採用短期工作契約、自由接案或專案制的工作,其實屬於非典型的工作者。在不同的僱主之下,其實是受僱的,他沒有一個長期僱主。他工作頻率跟收入的波動也很大,其實他們很可能沒有辦法被提供這種一般性的健康檢查。所以其實這個促使事件發生之後,"},{"start":600.528,"end":621.281,"text":"除了南國以外我看到很多的藝文工作者說彼此提醒彼此要做健康檢查但是他們其實沒有這方面的幫助那當然他們還可能要次數監課啦或接觸到一些粉塵等等犧牲健康作為藝術跟文化創作的代價這些創作者呢其實沒有雇主不能依法享有定期的健康檢查"},{"start":622.282,"end":650.972,"text":"文化部作為創作者們的大家長應該要關注藝人工作者的健康權其實本席在今天上台質詢以前呢就已經和勞動部的職安署達成共識他們願意真的很謝謝齁這個勞動部也有非常多的同仁還是很努力啦齁這個這個他們願意齁這個跟文化部衛福部一起來守護藝人工作者的健康本席能不能在此要求文化部勞動部衛福部共同會商"},{"start":652.691,"end":675.695,"text":"我們一起研議出一個文化產業自營工作者在安全衛生防護與健康檢查的補助方案。我們能不能一起來照顧這些文化工作者的健康?能不能有部長的支持?我們這個其實已經在進行跟藝文工作者的這個相關職災保護等等。所以我自己本身也非常願意做這個事。"},{"start":676.311,"end":677.253,"text":"感謝葛如荊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時37分）謝謝主席，請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好。今天的主題是文化部114年的預算案詢答，我們都知道依據博物館法第九條，博物館應本專業倫理，確認文物、標本、藝術品等蒐藏品之權源及取得方式之合法性。先請教一下部長，據您所知，博物館要合法取得藏品有哪幾種管道？"],["李部長遠：一方面是我們自己收購，一方面是別人捐贈。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，謝謝部長，確實一開始我們在相關的這個要點裡頭，國立臺灣歷史博物館整理得很好，它的藏品取得方式，第一個就是您提到的購買，第二個是捐贈，再來是轉移、採集、交換。","接著請問部長，114年度文化部所屬的11個博物館和美術館當中，有沒有哪幾個有編列所謂的採買或購買收藏品的預算？"],["李部長遠：應該都有編吧！"],["葛委員如鈞：是，我想這中間就存在了一些資訊的落差跟誤會，本席辦公室索取相關的資料，文化部僅回復有部分館沒有編列、沒有購買藏品的預算，因為回答很籠統，所以在這裡請教部長，您說全部都有編，但事實上我們看到你們的回復是有的有編、有的沒編，而且還沒有告訴我們數字。我想請問一下部長，你知不知道為什麼數字會兜不太起來、狀況不是很透明，文物預算的編列感覺好像很少，你知不知道為什麼？"],["李部長遠：因為我們總體預算不高，所以在分配上，像國立臺灣博物館，我們就編一些預算去購買，其他就使用原來我們購買的東西。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想我們的質詢、您的備詢，其實有一個很好的互動機制，我們也在協作，我們也幫您整理了近年來各個博物館購置藏品的情況，根據文化部提供給我們的資料，這是歷史資料，近三年來，文化部所屬的11個博物館跟美術館，裡面居然有7間購買藏品是0，您剛剛所提到的第一個是藏品增加的方法，但他們竟然是0件，兩年是0件的一共有8間。請問部長，您了解博物館購藏文物掛零的原因嗎？為什麼會這樣？"],["李部長遠：博物館購藏掛零的原因，大概就是沒錢嘛！"],["葛委員如鈞：因為掛零嘛，所以他們乾脆就不編了！"],["李部長遠：因為你剛剛問的是線上購藏。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有、沒有、沒有，我現在在問的是實際的，就全部的購藏，是總購藏，上面寫總購藏喔！"],["李部長遠：剛剛……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以部長，我現在是在幫您抽絲剝繭，其實您一開始就說購買藏品是很重要的來源，我們想知道有多少場館是有編列預算要來購買，然後我們得到的答案是有的沒有編列，我們就想了解為什麼有的沒有編列，你們也不願意提供到底哪些有編列、哪些沒有編列，結果我們自己又再索要了以前購買的資料，結果11家有七、八間是幾乎沒有購買的，全部掛零。所以我也幫部長整理了，我想我們這是一個協作的過程，其實我們進一步詢問，相關人士告訴我們的答案是藏品太貴，博物館的預算有可能買不起，但是這只是一部分，現行文化部所屬博物館的文物購藏程序太繁瑣，這也是其中一個部分，等到確認要買的時候，藏品早就被人家買走了！","我們來看一下文化部所屬博物館的購藏流程，第一個，你要先確認經費額度；第二個，我是很想朗讀，但真的有點長，但你大概可以理解，這些東西要有專家討論、審議、通過，弄完的時候這個藏品也輪不到你來買了，我想這種流程就導致我們整體展品購藏的機制名存實亡。部長，您要不要乾脆宣布我們的預算就都不要買了，都用捐的就好了，從此博物館展品的來源刪除購買這個管道，這樣好嗎？為什麼不好，我來告訴您。","首先，其實現在有非常多的新專案，其中一個114年度的預算案是「重建臺灣史2.0社會發展計畫」，編列了8,000萬元要籌設國家級現代美術館，這只是籌設，還沒有開始蓋喔，這8,000萬裡面有沒有購藏的預算？難道我們的國家級現代美術館裡面的展品都要靠捐贈、都要靠轉移嗎？請部長說明，如果我們過去是這樣的經歷，我們是這樣的習慣，國家美術館展品來源要如何規劃？"],["李部長遠：這個我們有編1,000萬購買，但是的確有很多前輩藝術家有大量的作品要捐給我們，而且我們本身也涉及到典藏庫房不夠的問題，現在正要蓋，這些問題都是一起的。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，所以這8,000萬裡面有1,000萬是要購買，是不是？"],["李部長遠：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：在這裡面嗎？我沒看到啊！沒關係，如果有就提供出來。1,000萬夠不夠？我想這個也要評估一下，畢竟這是國家級的嘛，對不對？沒關係，待會解釋。我總體想要講的就是希望部長了解一下相關購藏的辦法，是不是能讓流程可以更加的機動與彈性，否則我們的歷史一直在演進、巨輪一直在推，結果我們現在的館藏是沒有流動的，就是沒有新的館藏進來，那麼臺灣對於文化的學習其實是會受到影響啦！","當然，您剛剛有提到線上，沒錯，Art Basel的藝術報告裡面就提到，線上競標，其實市場一直增加，尤其在COVID-19之後。這一次我們其實也看到了，ART TAIPEI有跟像Artsy、蘇富比都有合作，所以我想線上購藏有沒有可能文化部也研議將其做為博物館購買藏品的方式之一，這樣你會節省掉很多開支啦，這個有沒有可能來研議一下？"],["李部長遠：在這個之前，我們完全沒有這個部分，我想我們來研究看看。"],["葛委員如鈞：對，因為這樣人員可以減少出訪，也可以透過網路的方式來增加館藏。如果有要線上購買，其實現在也有線上展廳啦，我也必須要說，有的博物館做得非常好，像國立歷史博物館的360度的環景導覽就做得很棒，但是有一些線上展覽則是從2021年以後就沒有更新，當然剛剛那個也是啦，有點可惜，希望再給予鼓勵，新館長洪世佑館長剛剛上任，期待可以重現線上展廳的建置，甚至再更進一步啦。當然，國立臺灣史前博物館就稍微比較潦草，除了文字簡介以外就沒有其他內容，我們也期待蔡政良館長要拿出具體的作為。我想都在現場喔，但我們是鼓勵啦，不要讓線上布展荒廢了。接下來我們在審查114年度預算的時候，各個博物館只要有心去做這些線上的行為，能夠去豐富化，將這樣一個東西做數位化，我們也會給予支持。","接下來想要和部長討論一件憾事，對於這件事，其實我個人非常難過，前幾天有一位年輕的新媒體藝術家因為突發性的原因不幸猝逝，這是臺灣藝文界的損失，他所屬的團體發文說他成為天上的一顆星星了。我覺得身為立法委員，我希望我跟部會這邊可以合作，我們一起來做一點事情。第一件事，我們其實有發現，文化部在過去有辦理一些所謂的人才培育，新媒體科技結合文化，其實編列了不少預算，我跟部長講，有三億多啦，辦了25場人才培育課程跟黑客松活動，有十幾家公司得獎，但是我們追溯了一下後發現，目前為止12個優秀入選的提案裡面，真正被實踐，得到後續政府的合作也好或推薦也好，或者把提案再擴大也好，只有2件。部長，我們能不能給予新興藝術的創作者多一點關注，投入資源並持續追蹤他們的後續發展？不要我們3億花掉了，找到一些不錯的團隊跟人員，結果我們沒有後續的扶植，這個部分部長可不可以允諾一下？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：第二件事情，真的是拜託部長，我們一起努力，這一次年輕藝術家不幸猝逝的事件，真的有非常多藝文圈的朋友感嘆，文史藝術、文化藝術工作者很多是採用短期工作契約、自由接案或專案制的工作，其實是屬於非典型的工作者，在不同的雇主之下，其實是受僱的，他沒有一個長期雇主，工作頻率跟收入的波動也很大，其實他們很可能沒有辦法被提供一般性的健康檢查，所以在這個猝逝事件發生之後，我除了難過以外，我也看到很多的藝文工作者說要彼此提醒做健康檢查，但是他們其實沒有這方面的幫助，當然，他們還可能要四處兼課，或接觸到一些粉塵等等，犧牲健康作為藝術跟文化創作的代價。這些創作者因為沒有雇主，不能依法享有定期的健康檢查，文化部作為創作者們的大家長，應該要關注藝文工作者的健康權，其實本席在今天上臺質詢以前，就已經和勞動部職安署達成共識，真的很謝謝，勞動部也有非常多同仁還是很努力啦，他們願意跟文化部、衛福部一起來守護藝文工作者的健康。本席能不能在此要求文化部、勞動部、衛福部共同會商，我們一起研議出一個文化產業自營工作者在安全衛生防護與健康檢查的補助方案？我們能不能一起來照顧這些文化工作者的健康，能不能有部長的支持？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，我們其實已經在進行藝文工作者的相關職災保護等等，我自己本身也非常願意做這個事。"],["葛委員如鈞：如果有需要相關的數據，到底有多少自營，其實真的比例很高，我們希望可以一起來關注他們的健康。謝謝，感謝部長，我們一起努力。"],["李部長遠：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。","接下來有請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a6375288259718e3d6068036af624ec870174940b19c4a6d232d910a97a5adeee0372c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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因為原住民族基本法規定政府因這個歸還原住民的土地"},{"start":159.187,"end":174.706,"text":"所以行政院也合訂了增化邊原住民保留地的一個政策跟計劃只要符合77年2月1號以前使用祖先的土地"},{"start":176.36,"end":189.529,"text":"就可以申請徵劃編為原住民保留地就可以取得所有錢這個是政府的政策也是根據法律的規定所以這個部分要請這個主委"},{"start":191.233,"end":214.572,"text":"我們沒有說要拿新的土地沒有就是主先留下來的土地能夠依行政院的政策依原住民主基本法來歸還給原住民是不是請這個主委因為你也上任把這樣的一個只要有原住民申請的部分就尊重"},{"start":216.158,"end":230.169,"text":"尊重行政院所定的這些政策計劃也尊重鄉鎮公所審查的一個機制包括縣政府審查的機制可以嗎"},{"start":231.028,"end":249.414,"text":"各位委員報告我們目前接受申請就是剛剛委員所提到的原住民申請的增畫片有54公頃51公頃我們都已經同意了還有3公頃現在目前是在鄉公所審查當中鄉公所審查我們將來多多配合你講那個50幾公頃是歷年來的另外最後"},{"start":257.386,"end":273.092,"text":"就是要特別跟族委你也從軍中很久然後也擔任過國防部部長原住民從軍的比例尤其是志願役的兵"},{"start":275.359,"end":303.539,"text":"我們是百分之十幾的比例百分之十幾的比例很高我們原住民的人口佔全台灣只有百分之二點多但是我們是百分之十幾所以他的相關的這些就業尤其是志願役很年輕就退了知道吧很年輕他沒有升到士官的話很年輕就退了所以怎麼樣去協助"},{"start":305.772,"end":332.545,"text":"讓我們的部長你也知道現在兵越來越少志願役越來越少你要有這個誘因誘因就是退輔會原住民的部分你們就開放提供請人事行政總署你們可以先辦理什麼開竊我們有原住民行政特考有原住民行政特考"},{"start":333.65,"end":351.469,"text":"這個部分開切不管是你退伍會還是你們的農場開切就可以禁用好不好謝謝委員指導我們會非常重視原住民的權益尤其像山高山我們都不管原住民還有我們的農民我們都會優先考量謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra 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2嘛"},{"start":178.636,"end":188.98,"text":"趴住之後就拿到醫師證書就進入PGY現在兩年以後做過全年醫師全年律師診保定也做過管道要比較廣全世界養育這麼多以前九大地區的時候是包括歐盟"},{"start":203.874,"end":230.635,"text":"包括歐盟那舊的歐盟是有15個國家後來有新的歐盟加進去像波蘭、匈牙利、羅馬尼亞、保加利亞那些加進去捷克等等有10個國家所以現在才有15加10有25個國家那我們不能認定什麼舊歐盟跟新歐盟歐盟是一體的所以才搞成現在這個問題嘛不然這樣就對了喔稍微非常清澈"},{"start":234.624,"end":256.458,"text":"中華民國的國民只要他中華民國籍他就要受憲法的保障他因為婚姻遷徙或者是父母親譬如我認識的很多外交官很多那個外貿協會的他們父母親派入在國外啊 孩子就一定在那裡讀書啊啊 帶他回來他如果有讀什麼的 他回來"},{"start":261.201,"end":264.383,"text":"他要怎麼規定幾關幾輪一直一直你層層關卡也OK但是他只要考得過一關一關考得過又有實習又有什麼他就是一個合格的醫師嘛"},{"start":285.441,"end":296.198,"text":"那臺灣的本土的醫生畢業的當然很強啊 因為大家都這樣走過來喔 很累的但是有沒有那樣你就洗個底面 不是餒"},{"start":300.185,"end":316.821,"text":"我在考選部那邊也當過委員那個國外像美國紐約大學回來的牙醫系的他想回來我看他的學歷他成績非常好啊這種不能讓他回來也現在不能實習胡說八道所以我們講事情要講大家聽得下去"},{"start":321.909,"end":329.897,"text":"你也只剝剝剝剝,一天到晚都剝剝,這樣在人家鄙視,獵巫,說到不值一提,禮拜天又要來遊行,然後我們黨團一直表演表示意見,我們,我也沒有在這邊,也沒有在那邊,可能比較公正,我們酒酸冷酸嘛,對不對,那你回來的,"},{"start":344.601,"end":362.857,"text":"從今年在國外不管你在美國在英國在哪裡你念醫學院醫學系回來台灣都要考鑑定考試嘛PRETEST是很難過的及格率我看還沒有到10%喔有一年我給他查才6%啊牙醫師6%嘛牙醫師6%嘛那很夭壽 我跟你講齁"},{"start":367.728,"end":380.191,"text":"好啦那今天這樣也是唸了然後回來趴萬也考過了然後現在在那邊等待實習然後你就說我一定要一年只能50個我前幾天到離港有一個在賣牛肉麵的阿嬤桑 她的祖母就是去波蘭塔亞裔回來結果也趴萬課過了"},{"start":393.968,"end":397.471,"text":"所以說那個柏蘭特赤都好惹人,好笑,錯啦,不一定是這樣那小孩子有意願,媽媽就站在那裡去託,這樣考過囉我說你現在在幹嘛?他說現在在賣化妝品我說怎麼了?他說在等啊,等實習啊我說你要等多久?他說他算什麼要等八年啊"},{"start":421.489,"end":436.889,"text":"請你備名所以這個也沒道理所以這個是人家考過在那邊等待實習的那你把他踐踏把他汙名化然後讓他不能實習部長你要怎麼做"},{"start":438.767,"end":453.9,"text":"你也很小心在回答我想這個都有歷史的一個演變我想剛剛莊委真的非常瞭解到整個脈動那我們都是在解決這些長期的爭議當然以大家的"},{"start":455.714,"end":466.918,"text":"我想國際牙醫這邊當然是不滿意50名非常的限額我們的本土牙醫這邊當然是希望降低我想這個一直多年來一直在爭議這個問題我講兩個例子"},{"start":470.598,"end":485.463,"text":"我們馬來西亞的臺灣人喔欸 華僑回來臺灣念書念高雄醫學院念完在我們醫院在長庚然後到長衛科專科醫師然後帶娶臺灣老婆回到馬來西亞"},{"start":487.183,"end":496.427,"text":"當然這在台灣唸書也是國外嘛馬來西亞就承認台灣的儀式執照 免課但是這條路你要去偏鄉給他六年所以他就乖乖的從某處走去東馬"},{"start":503.45,"end":507.872,"text":"所以各國的不一樣的平和制度﹐考試制度或者是認定制度﹐我們都尊重"},{"start":528.258,"end":543.937,"text":"所以不同的國家的認定方式我們自己有自己的方法這個在當市長的時候你們都通過了嘛市長的時候另外一個我講更嚴肅的我們的中醫市長以前中醫"},{"start":549.376,"end":570.34,"text":"中醫師沒考的時候中醫師是用特考捏特考是什麼意思我們年輕人可能都忘光了搞不好你們要出生啦中醫師可以去考檢定考試考完檢定考試就等於是高等檢定考試考過之後你就有資格去考中醫師特考結果呢會念書都考得上欸 那種的有幾個中醫特考考的有幾個幾千個"},{"start":582.403,"end":591.168,"text":"中醫特稿過的人數目前大概是佔整個中醫職業人數的4成多4成多 聽好 以前更多還要扣到都什麼種的 書磚比較不會還是軍裝比較不會 因為那些要背 要托 背到要死 中醫的東西 要我拖下來 這樣扣過"},{"start":607.897,"end":618.462,"text":"課過後他課高等檢定考試課過後他就課中醫特考課過後他就中醫書了喔對不對那十尊比較的老師都教他讀書喔這樣他真的要做中醫書請問他的醫學的訓練夠嗎"},{"start":624.761,"end":652.696,"text":"所以我們中醫中醫衛生部才把他們一個一個都找去中國醫藥大學去專門做醫師養成教育基礎醫學上面直接去補兼這個就是時代的產物那現在呢要考沒有中醫特考了對不起現在只有中醫系政科的才可以考對不對這樣對不對是是是所以中藥三也一樣頂頂所以我是覺得這一件事情"},{"start":653.616,"end":662.826,"text":"既然他們禮拜天又要上街頭我想衛福部你要好好的來處理啦阿也不可以這個事變成這樣不可以頭瞞在沙子裡面齁這些人300多個人過了嘛齁你說月科科會趴萬欸國際牙醫這個喔"},{"start":675.578,"end":676.339,"text":"賴總統本身是好意識的"},{"start":693.851,"end":698.076,"text":"臺灣的護衛醫系還是臺灣的護衛醫系獲得到國外訓因為婚姻遷徙什麼什麼一大堆因素我不知道"},{"start":715.134,"end":727.296,"text":"反正只要他們有學歷回來我們就要面對啦不然一昧著說這樣就全部排斥我不為誰啦但是我們還是要解決問題啦"},{"start":728.24,"end":735.347,"text":"我們會勇於面對 勇於面對這樣的長久下來的一個 這是我們政府跟專業團體的責任因為希望真的在提供民眾最好的一個醫療品質跟環境以外 怎麼樣解決長期的紛爭"},{"start":751.844,"end":774.697,"text":"如果舊的問題,我們是不是用更好的方法、更新的方法來解決?那,也,其實這一段期間我們也跟本土小孩也做了最公開、坦誠的一個互動也修改了一個,也修改了它的內容所以譬如說偏鄉者現在就不會去做任何實習的這個部分這個有一點違反剛剛蘇昭偉所提的"},{"start":775.58,"end":791.732,"text":"一個那個但是沒辦法因為這個這個我們為了減少爭議趕快大家好好的去洗衣去行衣那個不要讓讓社會更加的平和民眾需要的是我們大家的照顧偏鄉需要的是好的醫師願意下去照顧他們"},{"start":792.938,"end":808.265,"text":"我最後講一個就是你今年開始全世界不管先進國家中等國家或怎麼樣這些醫學院的學生要來台灣畢業要來考台灣的證照都必須要考鑑定考"},{"start":809.105,"end":823,"text":"而且鑑定考試很難考我不曉得臺灣接下來這樣是會進步還是會退步你只有全部都是本土的本土的美國的也回不來英國的也回不來這樣不好進行結婚"},{"start":827.726,"end":855.208,"text":"報告委員其實像我們仿照美國好了美國的那種國際學程很多有名的大學也是有國際學程但是他們的訓練是蠻扎實我們台灣的醫學院畢業也是要進入國際學程經過一個安格的訓練然後也可以考照那這個percentage大概也差不多是我們現在8%左右8到10%所以這個50個名額其實是看起來是以國際比較起來是還算合理"},{"start":856.088,"end":870.352,"text":"因為國際像美國的名大學也都是大概這個percentage最後我跟大家報告這個因為我有去研究美國的本土的美國人要簽他們的議案他也沒有在外面簽議約的簽不到了喔有退後喔"},{"start":875.646,"end":878.187,"text":"全無料他就去加拿大請議員或是美國的屬地波多利哥、格羅納達因美國的議員會去他設婚校美國人就直接跑到那邊去念那念是不是比照美國的學歷當然啊"},{"start":896.317,"end":912.219,"text":"因為他有一段時間實習是回美國那是美國的屬地再申請不到的就跑到波蘭東歐去那所以他們也會開一個英文班的專班那是要迎合美國、加拿大的學生要去的"},{"start":913.72,"end":930.711,"text":"臺灣人去那裡是在教育的隨班互讀的全程英文教學所以你說那些人到西班牙到哪裡去念的醫生去那邊受訓很差很差很差不要這樣講啦"},{"start":932.612,"end":932.752,"text":"蘇清泉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時29分）謝謝邱委員，請部長還有醫事司司長，還有口腔司司長。部長，辛苦了。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看你在回答問題時非常小心，非常好，我昨天問勞動部部長，從520就任，昨天11月20日你們就任滿半年，所以你給自己打了幾分，一樣的問題來問你一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我從來不會為自己打分數，我只知道要繼續努力，你也知道衛福部很忙的，忙到沒日沒夜的。"],["蘇委員清泉：衛福部家大業大，人又那麼多，部立醫院所屬的單位就嚇死人的多了，所以不出事才奇怪啦！出事是剛好而已，所以我還是跟大家一起戰戰兢兢啦！我今天要跟你延續地談國外醫師，我們不要講波波，講波波似乎有點鄙視，還有看不起人家，我深深的不以為然，我今天在這邊很鄭重的講，我不偏袒本土的牙醫或是波波牙醫，這樣講很難聽。","這個問題從馬英九時代到現在都一直在延續，我現在請問你一個問題，你們去年修改醫療法之後，今年出去唸醫學跟牙醫的，他們是要報備的，請問人數有沒有減少？"],["劉司長越萍：不用報備。"],["蘇委員清泉：不用報備？"],["劉司長越萍：補充一下，因為就學是個人自由，所以這個地方是不用報備的，至於要回來考試的時候，相關的申請會從考選部跟教育部這邊來進行學歷認證，看看到底有沒有問題、可不可以考試，所以是從那邊開始有資料的，以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你沒有在管去哪裡讀就對了，我跟大家報告，從今年入學的、到國外唸醫學院的，回來後都必須考鑑定考試。"],["邱部長泰源：對，學歷鑑定。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個鑑定就是pretest，不管你是從美國或英國回來，只要從九大地區回來的都要。"],["邱部長泰源：是！是！是！"],["蘇委員清泉：我是覺得臺灣有點開倒車，以前在馬英九時代是九大地區回來的不用考pretest，直接可以考第一階段（Part 1），對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：Part1考過之後就可以實習，實習一年之後，再臨床醫學考過、OSCE考過，就可以考Part2，Part2後就拿到醫師證書，就進入PGY，現在是兩年，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是！"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我做過醫師全聯會理事長，部長也做過。"],["邱部長泰源：很辛苦的。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以高度要高一點啦！全世界的醫學院這麼多，卻只有抓波波，以前九大地區的時候，是包括歐盟的，舊的歐盟有15個國家，後來有新的國家加入歐盟，像波蘭、匈牙利、羅馬尼亞、保加利亞、捷克等等有10個國家，所以現在才有15加10，有25個國家，但我們不能認定有什麼舊歐盟跟新歐盟，歐盟是一體的，所以才搞成現在這個問題，部長，這樣說對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：召委非常的清楚。"],["蘇委員清泉：中華民國的國民，只要他是中華民國籍，就要受憲法的保障，他因為婚姻、遷徒或者是父母親的緣故，像我認識很多外交官、很多外貿協會的，就是父母親派駐在國外，孩子當然一定會在那邊讀書，譬如說，他在當地讀法律系然後回來要考律師，你可以不讓他考嗎？沒有道理嘛！他讀牙醫、讀醫學，他回來考試，你要規定需經過幾關、幾輪，就算層層關卡也OK，但是他只要一關一關考得過，然後又有實習，又有什麼的，他就是一個合格的醫師。臺灣本土醫學院畢業的，當然很強啊！因為大家都是這樣熬過來的，十分辛苦，但你就真的是世界第一名嗎？不是！我在考選部那邊也曾當過委員，像國外美國紐約大學牙醫系的想回來，我看他的學歷、成績非常好，這種的不讓他回來，也限制他不能實習？胡說八道！所以講話要讓大家聽得下去，你們一天到晚講波波、波波，這樣鄙視、獵巫，講到不值一提。禮拜天人家要來遊行，黨團一直要我們表示意見，我不為這邊，也不為那邊，我們比較公正，我們就事論事，對不對？從今年不管是在美國、在英國或在哪裡，只要在國外念醫學院、醫學系，回來臺灣都要考鑑定考試，pretest這種考試很難，及格率不到10%！我查了，有一年才6%！"],["邱部長泰源：牙醫師6%。"],["蘇委員清泉：牙醫師6%？真的很「夭壽」！人家也是念了，回來後Part 1也考過了，現在在等待實習，結果你說一年只能50個。我前幾天到里港，一個賣牛肉麵的歐巴桑，他女兒去波蘭讀牙醫回來，Part 1考過了，媽媽賣牛肉麵。有人說去波蘭讀書的都是有錢人？騙人的！錯！不一定是這樣！其實是小孩子有意願，所以媽媽就省吃儉用讓孩子去讀書，這孩子考過了，我問他現在在幹什麼？他說現在在賣化妝品。我說怎麼了？他說等實習啊。我說要等多久？他算一算要等八年，等八年乾脆不要做了！這樣實在沒道理。人家是考試通過在等實習，結果你踐踏他，還把他污名化，讓他不能實習？部長，你要怎麼辦？我知道你很小心在回答。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這是有歷史演變的，召委非常了解整個脈絡，讓我很敬佩，我們的目的都是為了解決這些長期的爭議。我想國際牙醫這邊當然是不滿意，畢竟有50名的限額；至於本土小牙醫這邊當然是希望能降低，這是多年來一直在爭議的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：我講兩個例子做說明。一名馬來西亞華僑來臺灣在高雄醫學院念書，念完在我們醫院服務，然後再到長庚擔任腸胃科專科醫師，娶臺灣老婆回到馬來西亞，對他來說在臺灣念書也算國外。不過馬來西亞承認臺灣的醫師執照，不用考試，但有一個條件，要去偏鄉服務六年。所以他乖乖的帶著妻女到東馬砂拉越當醫生，到現在第三年了。他寧願放棄待遇不錯的臺灣腸胃科專科醫師之職，他認為回去那邊更有前途，更有發展。所以各國不一樣的評核制度、考試制度或認定制度，我們都尊重。不同的國家有不同的認定方式，我們也有自己的方法，而且這是你們通過的嘛！","另外我要講一個更嚴肅的，就是中醫。司長，以前中醫師人數不足時採用的是特考，特考是什麼意思？我想年輕人可能都忘光了，搞不好你們根本還沒出生。中醫師可以參加檢定考試，考完檢定考試等於通過高等檢定考試，之後就有資格考中醫師特考，結果會唸書的都考上，請問通過中醫特考的有幾個？幾千個！"],["邱部長泰源：請司長。"],["蘇司長奕彰：通過中醫特考的人數目前大概占中醫執業人數的四成多。"],["蘇委員清泉：四成多？聽好了，其實以前更多！結果考上的都是些什麼人？師專畢業或軍校畢業的，因為要死背、要讀，真的要死背，所以中醫的東西我沒辦法讀。考試通過後，也就是高等檢定考試通過後，再考中醫特考，通過就是中醫師了，對不對？師專畢業的老師都很會念書，這樣可以當中醫師，請問他醫學訓練夠嗎？就因為這樣，衛福部才把他們一個個找去中國醫藥大學做醫師養成教育，補強基礎醫學之類的，這就是時代的產物，但現在沒有中醫特考了！對不起，現在只有中醫系、正科的才可以考，對不對？是這樣吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：中藥商也一樣。我覺得這件事……既然他們禮拜天又要上街頭，那麼衛福部就要好好處理，總不能把頭埋在沙子裡當作沒事，這三百多人，考過牙科Part 1的……"],["邱部長泰源：國際牙醫嗎？在排隊的有645人。"],["蘇委員清泉：六百多個？"],["邱部長泰源：645。"],["蘇委員清泉：這六百多個要怎麼解決？總不能擺爛吧？這是高難度的問題，連總統也怕得要死。賴總統是後醫系的，從臺大復健系畢業後才去讀成大學士後醫學系，現在人家有意願要念臺灣的後醫系或臺灣的後牙醫系，或者到國外去念，因為婚姻、遷徙等一大堆因素，我不知道。只要他有學歷回來我們就要面對，不能一味排斥。老實說我不為誰，但我們還是要解決問題，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會勇於面對。"],["蘇委員清泉：勇於認罪？"],["邱部長泰源：勇於面對！"],["蘇委員清泉：勇於面對，嚇死我了。"],["邱部長泰源：勇於面對這個長久以來的問題，這是政府跟專業團體的責任，希望除了能提供民眾最好的醫療品質與環境以外，看怎麼樣解決長期紛爭。如果是舊的問題，我們是不是用更好的方法、更新的方法來解決？其實這段期間我們也跟本土小牙醫做了最公開坦誠的互動，也修改了內容，譬如偏鄉現在就不做任何的實習，但這有點違反剛剛蘇召委的意見，不過沒辦法，我們為了減少爭議，希望大家趕快好好的去習醫、去行醫，讓社會更加平和。民眾需要的是大家的照顧，偏鄉需要的是好醫師願意下去照顧他們。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後講一點，今年開始，全世界不管先進國家、中等國家或怎麼樣，這些醫學院學生畢業後要來臺灣考證照的，都必須先考鑑定考，但鑑定考很難考的，所以我不曉得臺灣接下來是會進步還是會退步。如果全部都是本土的，美國的回不來，英國的也回不來，這樣好嗎？只能近親結婚嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們仿照美國，美國有國際學程，很多有名的大學也有設國際學程，但他們的訓練滿紮實的。我們臺灣醫學院學生畢業後也要進入國際學程，經過嚴格的訓練後才可以考照。這部分的percentage差不多是現在的8%到10%，因此與國際比較，50個名額還算合理，美國名大學大概也是這個percentage。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後我跟大家報告，因為我有去研究。本土美國人若要申請讀醫學院醫學系，其實也不容易；若申請不到，就到加拿大申請讀醫學院，或美國屬地波多黎各、格瑞那達，美國醫學院會在那裡設分校，美國人就直接到那邊念。既然念了是不是比照美國學歷？當然，因為實習是回美國，況且那是美國屬地。若再申請不到，就跑到波蘭、東歐去，所以他們會開英文班專班，好迎合美國、加拿大學生，我們臺灣人去那邊讀是在「佮貨」，「佮貨」你聽得懂嗎？就是隨班附讀的，人家全程都英文教學，所以你說那些人到西班牙、到哪裡去唸個醫生，去那邊受訓很差、很差、很差，不要這樣講，人家……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，不過站在我們一起維護人民的醫療品質上，我們還是會從嚴來審查他的學歷以及相關的考試。"],["蘇委員清泉：當然。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定是從嚴來保障品質，當然也謝謝委員很多寶貴的指教。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，部長加油，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","接下來休息10分鐘。","休息（10時45分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：繼續開會。","請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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從這邊去討論。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這個我們現在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而不是直接把它列到退場機制，這個讓人家看了會嚇一跳！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，我們現在正在調整中，因為當時是很多地方，像長照來講，它先申請，然後又發現條件不符或者是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你承認需要調整，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們會調整。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：預警機制要調整……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們已經在調整了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間去調整方案出來給本席？這個讓人家嚇一跳啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們一個月內給委員書面報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月內將你的預警機制、監督機制調整好送出來，好不好？不要讓基層不知所措，長照跟幼兒是最重要的，竟然是列在國發會的退場機制，笑話！真的是笑話！","接下來本席跟你討論半導體人才的問題。本席要請教，據媒體報導，大專院校設置半導體學院，竟然有人說你們有去指揮人家要怎麼做、要怎麼做，有這回事嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，因為我們國發基金的人根本就忙不過來了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你忙不過來，沒有這回事，你有沒有看到媒體這麼報導？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有看到，但……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們不是有情報？有每天的新聞情蒐嗎？本席具體建議，如果你們確實沒有去干涉，你應該要提出聲明，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要讓各大專院校恐慌，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，郭部長說台積電每一年要在臺灣蓋一座廠，對不對？這是他這幾天的言論。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，應該是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在這樣的情況之下，我們不管是大學或者是半導體的學院，都是非常需要這些人才，所以本席要請教，這些缺口，每一年要一座台積電，更何況還有很多的產業、很多的公司也會設啊，你的人才跟目前你在培育的，你的KPI怎麼做？你預估你的人才缺口大概會有多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：半導體的人才，我們現在預估一年至少要有6,000人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一年至少要有6,000人。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且是逐步在增加，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：每一年要增加。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，每一年要成長。如果像主委所說的，你了解這個產業，那人才的來源要怎麼來？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們有跟這些主要的廠商，密切在關注它的設廠時間和招募時間，我們基本上以學校為主，另外就是您現在看到的重點領域的學生為主。目前以國內來講，半導體的供給量是比較夠，但是它產生了對其他產業的排擠效應，所以我們跟相關的部會有在探討這些事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人才非常重要，本席還是具體建議，缺口的部分你要怎麼樣有循序漸進的方案把它補足，整體人才要怎麼樣做調配，我想這是國發會你很重要的一個課題，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去研擬，然後把方案給本席，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。主委請回座。","現在我們休息，休息時間6分鐘，必要時延長2分鐘。","休息（10時41分）","繼續開會（10時49分）"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-16","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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那麼對國防戰力最有影響幫助的軍頭軍事投資所以在軍事投資這塊部門能夠增加更可以凸顯我們的國防戰力的提升"},{"start":235.811,"end":242.13,"text":"你還沒有回答是不是隱和美國的GDP的5%那個金額可能會很高"},{"start":249.658,"end":265.214,"text":"我們不應該因為美國的挑動然後造成我們自己本身把整個原來的一個制度又重新的編列然後把預算弄在國防部裡面的這樣是不是符合了GDP的3%"},{"start":266.315,"end":284.429,"text":"所以這個是你們要思考的地方那另外就是有關於我們新興百貨的董作之爭在媒體報導裏面就退不會所屬的新興大眾百貨現任的董事長游志煌任期將於明年的二月到期那"},{"start":285.129,"end":298.945,"text":"民進黨高層有意要讓給立委高嘉宜接任之前的人士證實高嘉宜實在是在董座的人選名單中民國也有3到5名的人選角逐退會之前回應"},{"start":300.406,"end":328.565,"text":"現任的董事會由智煌任期明年二月才屆滿,任期屆滿時,輔導會將依程序辦理理險,秉持開放態度納入由廠官協代表組成之投資事業人士審議小組,公正領險,其能為公股舉財,強化投資事業,經營一粒事業,經營有效的成長。"},{"start":330.486,"end":346.216,"text":"報告委員有關外界報導的這一則新聞事件就是高嘉瑜小姐接任我們新興大眾百貨公司董事座因為現任的有董事長他是2月明天2月他才屆滿所以我們還沒有啟動相關的人事作業什麼時候啟動還沒啟動什麼時候啟動何時啟動那將來大概7000會7000一個月因為2月份屆滿嘛"},{"start":354.341,"end":376.32,"text":"那啟動之後就是由場觀學員他們變成人事審議小組去審議你們都已經公開了嘛秉持開放態度納入場觀學代表組成投資事業人事審議小組這是你們已經對外公開的機制一定要遵守這個機制另外"},{"start":377.741,"end":391.95,"text":"本席提醒主委,以上信息請退不諱一一回答消息的真實性。關於新興百貨新董作是否已有來自各界推薦?新興百貨"},{"start":395.172,"end":423.576,"text":"新董作是否已經存在首位的人選名單?高嘉宜是否在董作人選的名單中?是否有人向退補會推薦高嘉宜或提出這個想法?如果有的話誰推薦的?是誰提出的?高嘉宜角逐新董作新百貨的董作這個代表是什麽?民股還是光股?"},{"start":424.505,"end":424.605,"text":"6項提示6項"},{"start":443.249,"end":460.296,"text":"這個六項就是是否來自各界的推薦還是已經有存在所謂的人選的名單那另外就是懂做的人選名單中是不是有高嘉宜這個都是等等都已經給你提示了所以我們要回歸到你們所公開的"},{"start":462.398,"end":476.736,"text":"臨險的公正公平的角度希望你能夠秉持這樣的精神不要因為是不是化解民進黨在2026年基隆市長非上億人選的出入問題所以這個就是"},{"start":477.837,"end":478.858,"text":"我們要按照機制來進行謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時31分）謝謝主席，有請我們嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：主委好。目前來講，很多退將或是軍士官的反映非常激烈，有關於國軍官兵的退休退職給付改列為國防部的預算，這個部分來講的話，我想有很多外界的聲音，是不是要迎合美國認為臺灣的國防支出應達GDP 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TV,那個,YouTube,Line TV,YouTube。"},{"start":117.711,"end":133.582,"text":"我知道網路有直播也有轉播啦那我給你這30秒我覺得你沒有把握一下因為大家都很關心這個棒球的這個賽事同時呢其實今年的金馬獎是非常的精彩喔因為有史以來是最多應該是最多影作品參加的有718部而且是最多非華語地區的電影工作者入圍的一季是非常有亮點非常的精彩"},{"start":143.228,"end":166.488,"text":"所以我也希望說文化部這邊你們再積極的宣傳推廣一下希望我們的民眾可以同時兩邊都可以掌握訊息的來關心我們金馬獎的頒獎接下來我想請教我們部長根據國家語言發展報告指出臺語在30歲以下的族群能力日漸衰退部長看一下我這個表格"},{"start":167.671,"end":197.671,"text":"閱讀﹑寫﹑寫﹑"},{"start":197.911,"end":215.967,"text":"那對比剛才我提到這個數據也會發現其實我們台語的使用頻率跟台語的能力並沒有成正比意思就是說我們民眾其實對我們母語的意識是有提升的但是母語的能力是極速下滑的所以看完這些報告呢我不知道我們文化部對於針對這些問題你們有沒有制定相關的一些台語推廣的政策"},{"start":220.02,"end":247.081,"text":"有,其實我來半年我們花很多力氣在研究那個臺語怎麼樣推廣我們現在想到一些非常具體的方法包括我們建立臺語家庭還有我們的一些各種頻道直接用臺語那我是不是請負責的次長來跟您講比較詳細次長你把這個資料給我辦公室我接受我現在現場質詢的時間好再來我請部長跟我一下看一下這個投影片我下一張投影片"},{"start":247.882,"end":264.671,"text":"您看一下,你看你看懂不懂,其實這是用台語寫的。那本席發現,其實民眾對台語比較熟悉、比較精通,就是局限在聽跟講。讀跟寫呢,跟要熟悉又是另外一個難度。像我的台語算是上寫有練等欸,但是"},{"start":265.271,"end":281.116,"text":"本席要讀這篇報導也是有點困難我還要頓一下又腦中必須去翻譯過表示說其實我們台語的推廣不夠全面我們缺乏讀跟寫的能力沒有文字的輔助跟推廣其實台語的傳承的推廣是很有危機的部長您有辦法把這個投影片上面的字直接翻成台語啊 唸出來嗎哪一段第一段就好了第一句第一段"},{"start":296.229,"end":303.334,"text":"第一段,他們年頭沒那麼多,想到的應該要想到的是不是這一段?第一句,為了要讓大家站在上面的國家議員,"},{"start":311.24,"end":314.903,"text":"我意思就是說其實我們講跟聽其實沒有什麼問題的情況之下讀跟寫這個部分我們在文字的輔助上是不是我們還有很大很大要努力的空間"},{"start":332.896,"end":353.092,"text":"部長您有看懂這篇報導它要表達的訴求,其實學者指出就是說國家語言發展中心主要是負責國家語言整體的研究保存以及政策等等的建議,是很難專一的推廣單一個語言,就像台語相關的事務其實分散在教育部跟文化部,那在文化部這邊應該是在我們的出版司吧?"},{"start":354.87,"end":378.129,"text":"其實我們沒有專責的單位所以我們要專責的來推廣台語沒有一個專責的負責的單位其實就是分散在各部門的業務它很難的專一那所以說我一直很期待我們文化部可以成立一個台語的專責單位之前我在質詢的時候也請我們文化部來研議不知道現在有沒有研究出怎樣的一個成果有沒有一個進度"},{"start":378.84,"end":383.883,"text":"adequate to the national research and development center."},{"start":396.75,"end":396.77,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":411.499,"end":419.305,"text":"所以在這個國家語言推廣中心裡面我們也就會有一個專責的一個部門一個單位來推做這些推廣的業務嗎?這個中心設置條例通過以後我們會才開始研究有什麼部門因為我們是文化部所以我們經常被要求包括客家客語啊或者是原住民語都會需要我們來一起來推動所以我們最近辦了很多場很多場的那個語言推廣"},{"start":438.078,"end":440.92,"text":"adequate to the public, indigenous peoples, and indigenous people, etc."},{"start":440.92,"end":443.682,"text":"This is a very complex process, and we will do it carefully."},{"start":457.073,"end":458.834,"text":"閱讀者,請問對於這個發放的這個方案具體的方案我們已經有研擬出來了嗎?"},{"start":487.054,"end":502.012,"text":"有,我們自己內部已經討論完畢。它的使用的範圍跟限制還有一些防避措施還有一些萬一這些小孩子沒有手機我們要發什麼券這些我們都已經差不多完成了。"},{"start":505.415,"end":520.007,"text":"請問年齡兼程的年輕人有沒有特定的優惠方案,如何協助他們來領取?是透過家長嗎?還是透過怎樣的管道?各種方式都有,一種是原來他就有手機,一方面就是如果他沒有手機,另外我們會推這個"},{"start":521.869,"end":543.285,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":543.305,"end":544.306,"text":"現在已經到一萬八千多家。"},{"start":559.091,"end":567.593,"text":"這是說明的還是說明的對象還是已經招進來的?已經應該招進來因為這個文化部的效果非常好所以想要參加的那個廠商越來越多那因為剛才部長您有提到過對於對這個房幣的措施就是這文化幣的轉賣轉讓的情況我們已經有這樣子的措施在眼裡也希望說這個我們要推廣這個文藝藝文活動我們也希望說更全面的讓我們的年輕人來參與"},{"start":588.939,"end":593.042,"text":" bicycliffe 審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。 bicycliffe"},{"start":608.793,"end":621.205,"text":"我們也希望說我們應該是每年的狀況來做滾動的檢討作為檢討的依據因為一年一年要進步一年一年我們範圍更多的時候我們可能發現的一些問題會更多這個部分也希望你們持續的來檢討相關的這些"},{"start":627.451,"end":631.855,"text":"文字局文化資產人才庫顯示傳統教師有950筆資料,修復工程工地負責人有1200筆資料。"},{"start":642.845,"end":643.685,"text":"閱讀委員會主管文化部主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會"},{"start":671.793,"end":671.813,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":689.245,"end":715.37,"text":"有 這個問題的確是蠻嚴重如果吸引年輕人加入這個訓練行列然後願意投入這個工作本身就是一個其實有點困難因為他的工作方式什麼但這點我們的確一直在訓練還有包括他的執照他怎麼拿到這個執照可以在現場幫忙我們有一直往下不斷的修正這個而且已經開始做如果我們可以給你一份報告"},{"start":716.01,"end":716.976,"text":"好,那這個部分再請部長給我一份報告。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時25分）謝謝主席，請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員，你好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安。部長，我們這個禮拜，23日也就是本週六晚上六點，同時是金馬獎頒獎典禮以及世界棒球賽四強賽臺日大戰的轉播時間，在選擇上要看哪一個轉播，我是一直在考慮，部長，你想好要看哪一場轉播嗎？"],["李部長遠：如果我的話，我那天一定要到金馬獎現場，但是會有人一直不斷告訴我打得怎麼樣，因為這個滿簡單的。"],["陳委員秀寳：喔，會有人告訴你現在戰績如何，所以部長您是要在金馬獎現場的。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：我本來要問你有沒有什麼小撇步可以教大家同時收看，但是後來我助理有教我，就把電腦跟手機同時打開就可以了。"],["李部長遠：是，這也不錯。"],["陳委員秀寳：現在很多人都在關心，因為臺日大戰大家都非常非常關注，同時是不是也影響到了我們金馬獎的收視率？我現在考一下部長，您知不知道星期六當天晚上的金馬獎頒獎在什麼地方看直播、什麼地方看轉播？什麼管道？我考一下您。"],["李部長遠：我是不是請……"],["陳委員秀寳：好，請知道的來回答。"],["吳司長宜璇：台視的部分會做實況轉播，另外網路的部分也會有網路平臺同步……"],["陳委員秀寳：網路什麼平臺？你知道嗎？我給你30秒打廣告，拉一下收視率。"],["吳司長宜璇：LINE TV、YouTube。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，我知道網路有直播、也有轉播，但我給你這30秒，我覺得你沒有把握一下，因為大家都很關心棒球賽事，同時今年的金馬獎非常精彩，因為應該是有史以來最多作品參加的，有718部，而且是最多非華語地區電影工作者入圍的一屆，是非常有亮點、非常的精彩，所以我希望文化部這邊你們再積極宣傳、推廣一下，希望我們的民眾可以同時掌握兩邊的訊息，關心我們金馬獎的頒獎。","接下來我想請教部長，根據國家語言發展報告指出，台語在30歲以下族群的能力日漸衰退，部長看一下我這個表格，在20到29歲，聽的能力剩下不到一半，說的能力剩下不到四成，讀跟寫更不用說，在13歲到19歲，聽的能力不到四成，說的能力也不到三成，所以顯見我們台語面臨的傳承危機真的是不容忽視。尤其在報告裡面指出，其中七成的父母主要對子女交談的語言是用華語，也就是說，在這些子女長大之後，本土語言使用者大概只剩下會堅持積極使用的那三成，對比剛才我提到的數據會發現，其實我們台語的使用頻率跟台語的能力並沒有成正比，意思就是說我們民眾對我們母語的意識是有提升，但是母語的能力是急速下滑的。所以，看完這些報告，我不知道文化部針對這些問題有沒有制定相關的台語推廣政策？"],["李部長遠：有，其實我來半年，我們花很多力氣在研究台語怎麼樣推廣，我們現在想到一些非常具體的方法，包括我們建立台語家庭，還有各種頻道直接使用台語，我是不是請負責的次長來跟您講比較詳細？"],["陳委員秀寳：次長，你把這個資料給我辦公室，我節省現場質詢的時間。","再來我請部長跟我看一下投影片，您看一下，您看不看得懂？這其實是用台語寫的，本席發現民眾對台語比較熟悉、比較精通的就是侷限在聽跟講，至於讀跟寫要熟悉又是另外一個難度。像我的台語算是有「輪轉」的，但是本席要讀這篇報導也是有點困難，我還要頓一下，腦中必須翻譯過，表示我們台語的推廣不夠全面，我們缺乏讀跟寫的能力，沒有文字的輔助跟推廣，其實台語的傳承、推廣是很有危機的！部長，你有辦法把投影片上面的字直接翻成台語唸出來嗎？"],["李部長遠：哪一段？"],["陳委員秀寳：第一段就好了，第一句。"],["李部長遠：第一段就是「他們反而沒辦法受到應該要受到的……」是不是這一段？"],["陳委員秀寳：第一句，「為了要讓台語、客語等等的國家語言可以復振、發展，文化部主辦的國家語言發展會議，11場的分區……」……"],["李部長遠：你說直接從……"],["陳委員秀寳：這個就是這樣，我意思就是說，我們講跟聽其實沒有什麼問題的情況之下，讀跟寫這個部分，在文字的輔助上是不是還有很大很大要努力的空間？部長，你有看懂這篇報導它要表達的訴求。其實學者指出，國家語言發展中心主要是負責國家語言整體的研究保存以及政策等等的建議，是很難專一的來推廣單一個語言，就像台語相關的事務其實分散在教育部跟文化部，在文化部這邊，應該是在出版司吧？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們沒有專責的單位，所以我們要專責的來推廣台語，沒有一個專責的負責單位的話，其實就是分散在各部門的業務，它很難專一，所以我一直很期待文化部可以成立一個台語的專責單位，之前我在質詢的時候，也請文化部來研議，不知道現在有沒有研議出怎樣的成果，有沒有一個進度？"],["李部長遠：我們其實已經送進國家語言研究發展中心，設置條例已經送到立法院，然後我們本身……您剛才沒有說錯，我們就是出版人文司裡面的1、2個人在負責，但是剛才講的台語推廣不只是這些，包括現有的頻道，我們都在做，但是如果國家語言研究發展中心設置條例通過的話，我們下一步就會把這個工作直接擺在這個中心，人力等等各方面的配置就夠。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以在國家語言推廣中心裡面，我們也就會有專責的一個部門、一個單位來做這些推廣的業務嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個中心設置條例通過以後，我們才會開始研究有什麼部門，因為我們是文化部，所以經常被要求，包括客語或者是原住民語，都希望我們一起來推動，所以我們最近辦了很多場的語言推廣，都要顧到客家、原住民，甚至於馬祖語等等，這點是滿複雜的一個推動過程，我們會小心翼翼地來做。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實在客語的推廣或是原民語的推廣，他們是有專責單位的，反而台語是沒有。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我真的非常希望我們趕快加緊腳步，來跟相關的學者來討論研議……"],["李部長遠：會。"],["陳委員秀寳：怎麼樣可以更積極地來辦理台語相關的推廣事務。","接下來要請教部長關於本席之前有詢問過的文化幣向下延伸的試辦計畫，我們預計114年在13歲到15歲這個年齡階層，每個人要發放600點的文化幣，請問對於發放的具體方案，我們已經有研擬出來了嗎？"],["李部長遠：有，我們自己內部已經討論完畢，它的使用範圍跟限制，還有一些防弊措施，還有萬一這些小孩子沒有手機，我們要發什麼券，這些都已經差不多完成了。"],["陳委員秀寳：是，我這邊就是要請教您，對於這些年齡階層的年輕人，我們有沒有比較特定的優惠方案，如何協助他們來領取，是透過家長嗎？還是透過怎樣的管道？"],["李部長遠：各種方式都有，一種是原來他就有手機，一方面就是如果他沒有手機。另外，我們會推這個的最大目的就是家長跟他一起參加各種文化活動，因為13到15歲這個年齡是有點尷尬，我們推這個活動有一個最大目的就是增加親子的互動，所以我們的設計裡面差不多都是親子要一起做的，然後也會帶動他們繼續花更多的錢在文化產業方面。"],["陳委員秀寳：文化部現在正在舉辦的招商推廣說明會，以前店家的規模都大概在五千多、六千家左右，我們有沒有預計要再擴大店家的目標？"],["李部長遠：現在大概已經到一萬八千多家。"],["陳委員秀寳：這是說明的對象，還是已經招進來的？"],["李部長遠：應該已經招進來，因為文化部的效果非常好，所以想要參加的廠商越來越多。"],["陳委員秀寳：店家是很踴躍的，好，因為剛才部長您有提到對於防弊的措施，就是文化幣轉賣、轉讓的情況，已經有這樣子的措施在研擬，要推廣這個藝文活動，我們也希望更全面地讓我們的年輕人來參與，而不是只侷限在使用書店或是文具這個部分。所以剛才部長您說的，可以增進親子之間的互動，由家長帶著孩子一起來參與這些相關的藝文活動，我想這就是我們文化幣的初衷，希望培養青年的藝文消費習慣，我也希望我們應該要視每年的狀況來做滾動的檢討、作為檢討的依據，因為一年一年要進步，一年一年範圍更多的時候，我們可能會發現更多的問題，這個部分也希望你們持續地來檢討相關的這些……"],["李部長遠：是，我們會做。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：最後，我再補充一下，文資局這邊的文化資產人才庫有顯示，我們傳統的匠師大概有九百五十多筆的資料；修復工程工地的負責人有一千兩百多筆，是筆數，不是人數喔！所以這個也表示我們人才的養成是跟不上古蹟歷史建築的增加速度，我們現在全臺的古蹟及歷史建築已經超過兩千七百多處，未來每年陸續應該會再增加一百多處，所以我們修復人才有很明顯的斷層的情況之下，文化部這邊是不是要趕快有一個怎樣的因應？除了人才培育之外，我們也要吸引更多的人才，願意來投入到古蹟修復的現場，因為現在年齡層在50歲以下的只占24%，所以表示會有一個斷層出現，而且我們培訓出來的人才也不見得是很積極地投入在這樣的工作裡面，文化部有沒有什麼因應的措施？"],["李部長遠：有，這個問題的確是滿嚴重，如何吸引年輕人加入訓練行列，然後願意投入這個工作，本身其實有點困難，因為它的工作方式等等，但這點我們的確一直在訓練，包括他怎麼拿到這個執照，可以在現場幫忙，我們有一直往下不斷地修正，而且已經開始做，我們可以給你一份報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，這個部分再請部長給我一份報告，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員。","接下來我們有請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752d2e53b81bb604f11ed5a0382e2f733d940b19c4a6d232d911b3ed4d2a5df194e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:22:14 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有80萬名外籍移工從世界各地來臺灣打拚賺錢"},{"start":118.212,"end":137.301,"text":"但是在台的這些移工涉詐的人數從111年的382人到今年已經超過700人那這裡我想先就叫我們的次長對於這個詐騙集團是如何來威逼利誘吸收移工包括"},{"start":138.181,"end":155.227,"text":"過去我們曾經聽說是針對這些經濟壓力或是可能以毒品、藥物加以控制的方式來誘使外籍工去協助他們從事不法的行為這些手段和管道可能會與時俱進我看現在的詐騙集團比較多是"},{"start":162.409,"end":173.867,"text":"用一些比較新穎的方式那我想請教市長就是他們是透過什麼樣的方式和管道我們的主管機關有沒有確實掌握這些相關的事證"},{"start":175.311,"end":200.101,"text":"跟委員報告我們在目前查緝到的個案裡面我們分析外籍移工絕大多數他如果涉及詐欺犯罪的案件都是透過他的同鄉管道互相來介紹有他的同鄉管道裡面之前有人從事於詐欺犯罪那就在誘使這個移工尤其是我們逃逸的移工因為他有經濟上的一個需求"},{"start":200.521,"end":222.188,"text":"所以他就會把他的門號跟帳戶交出來交給這個詐騙集團來利用那本身也可能成為車手所以在移工這塊我們除了多語化的宣導之外另外就是說透過包括勞動部的合作我們希望能夠從他們的一些團體來下手希望能夠讓這個部分降低"},{"start":222.768,"end":243.38,"text":"好 那聽起來我們也是有這個相對應的措施在進行當中那我也希望說這個部分可能要加緊腳步那其中剛剛那個次長你也說到這個門號的部分有一些這個犯罪集團他會去利用這些人頭帳戶外籍移工的人頭帳戶"},{"start":245.271,"end":263.422,"text":"來取得他們的這個電信號碼幫助他們來洗錢或詐欺的這個案件那尤其這個人頭帳戶的部分有可能在他們要出盡錢這個外籍移工就有用高價來賣給這個詐騙集團這個應該在坊間都聽得到甚至還有這個一個行情價目表在那邊"},{"start":271.027,"end":280.291,"text":"那我想目前我們銀行是不是能夠及時掌握到移民署和勞動部所提供的這類型的相關資訊"},{"start":289.332,"end":306.955,"text":"跟委員報告我們在移民署的部分我們有提供包括通傳會跟金管會他移工本身的一個入出境的一個資料的借接那這部分我們也透過各自委員會同意那這個符合我們各自法的規定"},{"start":307.876,"end":334.033,"text":"那這個屆屆之後呢移工一旦離開台灣他的門號跟帳戶我們就會由金管會跟這個通傳會來做門號跟帳戶的管制是通知電信業者停號還是如何去管控停號嘛直接停號就好因為他既然移工已經離開台灣就就表示他這個門號就沒有用了嘛好那對於這個電信門號的這個詐騙來說齁"},{"start":336.915,"end":365.129,"text":"有關電信業者KYC的這個管理是不是能夠落實我看剛剛那個市長您也大概有掌握了那包括這個9月份給NCC開通查詢外籍的這個人士入出境的資訊能否和電信業者的這個之間來一個合作我想這還是要拜託我們內政部這邊跟相關電信業者有一個緊密的合作那許多這個失聯的移工"},{"start":366.189,"end":390.495,"text":"是我們政府難以掌握的一個族群到目前9月份我們全台灣已經超過8萬8千人的移工受到詐騙集團的鎖定有可能使這些失聯的移工被較高的酬金誘使從事不法甚至反而成為被詐騙的一個對象"},{"start":392.876,"end":407.421,"text":"那礙於身份沒辦法報警或是尋求其他協助那對於失聯移工設詐或是被詐的情形能否來自源頭管理或是其他的因應措施我想這個部分還是請次長大概說明一下"},{"start":408.508,"end":422.831,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在在失業移工的部分因為主要的原因是因為台灣的經濟環境他如果在這個外面的所謂的黑工市場打工他的工作機會多"},{"start":424.052,"end":438.6,"text":"那酬勞也比他原本的這個工作可能高所以就變成是誘使他失聯一個主要的一個理由那我們現在在查緝的部分移民署我們有在加強所有的查緝的力道並沒有停下來"},{"start":439.9,"end":458.604,"text":"至於移工本身涉詐的部分我們現在在查緝的過程裡面我們會從每一個個案去回溯他涉詐的原因跟他背後的集團所以這部分我們在移民署跟警政署我們都有配合雙方把這個資訊我們要做交流好"},{"start":462.383,"end":476.636,"text":"另外就是對於我們要提升試詐的能力有可能會減少受騙的情形來產生包括透過各種傳播管道來製作不同形式的宣傳隨時可以更新防詐的資訊"},{"start":477.617,"end":493.871,"text":"例如勞動部有製作相關的圖卡包括有英文、泰文、越南文、印尼文等版本移民署還有加入緬甸文、柬埔寨文其他部會則不一定有提供相關語言版本"},{"start":494.491,"end":511.397,"text":"但如果都是為了要讓外籍人士能夠獲取最新的相關防詐的宣導資訊那這個部分我想應該由內政部來主責是不是可以來整合讓防詐的文宣有更多語言版本能夠更完備"},{"start":513.083,"end":529.473,"text":"我們這個是不是移民署可以...移民署...對對對對對...跟...跟委員報告就是我們行政局會把詐騙的各種的手法就是多國語言提供...提供給各相關這個部會來做一個...一個試詐的一個選擇"},{"start":532.115,"end":546.088,"text":"那我還是請我們指揮中心指揮中心這邊跟我們警政署這邊來加強這個相關的這個演繹讓我們四詐的這種宣傳能夠更加的友善那另外"},{"start":546.528,"end":568.485,"text":"對於這個國內我們少年涉詐的情形也越來越嚴重近年來已經查獲上萬人我們各級學校現在都應該有這個相關的這些法治教育有向這些學生來宣導切勿這個以身釋法但先前我們警方的這個統計數字明知違法仍然要從事詐騙行為的"},{"start":570.286,"end":584.719,"text":"這個犯案少年佔了七成以上這部分顯然我們的法治教育的部分出現了警訊有必要再進行研議和改善那對於在學校裡面上課的同學我們或許比較能夠掌握情況"},{"start":585.279,"end":599.437,"text":"但對於在校園以外的地方更是能夠誘使青少年接觸詐騙行為的地方我們應該要如何來防堵詐團對於青少年的接觸以降低我們這些少年處罰的機會"},{"start":607.079,"end":614.83,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個少年去觸犯這個這個詐團但是少年可能是學生那現在我們發現到這個"},{"start":619.075,"end":627.099,"text":"從111年大概剛剛這裡面到少年去犯罪我們大概有380幾個人112年有700多人那113年到12年大概也有700多這個趨勢是上升的那這裡面看起來就是說他的這個案件裡面"},{"start":637.685,"end":660.488,"text":"大概都是以人頭或是帳戶的居多那怎麼要去做防堵呢?我們第一個就是要去做一個市長的一個宣導那這個宣導的部分我們特別強調就是說你不要認為你是少年是沒有責任你家長要負連帶的這個責任讓這一個他犯罪之後能夠有所有所嚇阻"},{"start":661.729,"end":681.36,"text":"第二部分就是說對於這些可能就是高風險的這些的少年那我們會去再加強去做一個瞭解跟查解所謂的高風險就是說可能這個失血啦臭血啦這些中臭症也會特別去做瞭解這個情形那第三個部分對於這一個"},{"start":683.941,"end":703.387,"text":"是不是屬於這個少年犯罪的這個教唆者我們會加強去做幕後集團的一個做這樣的一個查集那我們不管是校園內跟校園外或者是私學、中輟生什麼這些我們全方面會來做一個一個了解跟解決"},{"start":704.807,"end":730.062,"text":"好 謝謝署長那也謝謝次長我希望說我們各部會各部會我們對於這個剛剛早上到現在許多委員在關心的我們不管是市詐還有堵詐、防詐、阻詐、懲詐相關的這些部會應該要如何來分工如何來落實我相信這才是最重要確實讓我們台灣被詐騙的情形看能不能"},{"start":730.742,"end":743.326,"text":"快速地來降低。」我相信這是全民所希望也是所有民眾最期待的也可以確實來保護我們所有人民生命財產的安全以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時22分）好，謝謝主席，我們先請馬次長跟警政署的張署長。"],["主席：馬次長、署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長、署長早。我們今天針對今年通過的打詐四法要配合明年1月即將啟動的打詐綱領2.0，無非是希望能夠透過同步強化法制面還有組織面、技術面來有效打擊相關的詐欺案，防止民眾受騙的案例一再發生。我剛剛拜聽了早上的質詢，我們一整年的詐騙相關案件，目前看起來超過1,000億以上，要避免民眾再次受騙，也要避免一些民眾因為不知情被詐騙集團當作是犯罪的工具。從今天報告的題目也反映出目前移工和少年涉入詐欺的數量有增加的情況，不但容易蒙受無謂的損失，甚至被詐騙集團看準來吸收，進而控制成為共犯，這對於政府打擊犯罪、詐騙來說，必須儘速跨部會地來整合、來防堵這個破口，其中我想先針對外籍移工涉詐或是受騙的情形來就教相關的部會。臺灣目前大約有80萬名的外籍移工從世界各地來臺灣打拼賺錢，但是在臺的這些移工涉詐的人數，從111年的382人到今年已經超過700人，我想先就教次長，詐騙集團是如何來威逼利誘吸收移工，包括過去我們曾經聽說是針對這些經濟壓力或是可能以毒品、藥物加以控制的方式，來誘使外籍移工去協助他們從事不法的行為，這些手段和管道可能會與時俱進，我看現在的詐騙集團比較多是用一些比較新穎的方式，我想請教次長，他們是透過什麼樣的方式和管道，我們的主管機關有沒有確實掌握這些相關的事證？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，在目前查緝到的個案裡面，我們分析外籍移工如果涉及詐欺犯罪的案件，絕大多數都是透過他的同鄉管道互相來介紹，他的同鄉管道裡面之前有人從事詐欺犯罪，那就再誘使移工，尤其是逃逸的移工，因為他有經濟上的需求，所以他就會把他的門號跟帳戶交出來，交給詐騙集團利用，本身也可能成為車手，所以在移工這塊，我們除了多語化的宣導之外，另外就是透過包括與勞動部的合作，我們希望能夠從他們的一些團體來下手，希望能夠讓這個部分降低。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，聽起來我們也是有相對應的措施在進行當中，我也希望這個部分可能要加緊腳步。剛剛次長你也說到門號的部分，有一些犯罪集團會去利用這些外籍移工的人頭帳戶來取得他們的電信號碼，幫助他們洗錢和詐欺，尤其人頭帳戶的部分，有可能在他們要出境前，外籍移工就用高價賣給詐騙集團，這個應該在坊間都聽得到，甚至還有一個行情價目表在那邊，我想目前銀行是不是能夠即時掌握到移民署和勞動部所提供這類型的相關資訊？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，在移民署的部分，我們有提供包括通傳會跟金管會移工本身的入出境資料介接，這部分我們也透過個資委員會同意，符合個資法的規定，介接之後，移工一旦離開臺灣，他的門號跟帳戶就會由金管會跟通傳會來做門號跟帳戶的管制。"],["陳委員俊宇：是通知電信業者停號還是如何去管控？停號嘛！直接停號就好，因為既然移工已經離開臺灣就表示這個門號就沒有用了嘛！好，對於電信門號的詐騙來說，有關電信業者KYC的管理是不是能夠落實，我看剛剛次長您也大概有掌握了，包括9月份給NCC開通查詢外籍人士的入出境資訊，能否和電信業者之間合作，我想這個還是要拜託內政部這邊跟相關電信業者有一個緊密的合作。許多失聯的移工是我們政府難以掌握的族群，到目前9月份，我們全臺灣已經有超過8萬8,000人的移工受到詐騙集團的鎖定，有可能使這些失聯的移工被較高的酬金誘使從事不法，或甚至反而成為被詐騙的對象，礙於身分沒辦法報警或是尋求其他的協助，對於失聯移工涉詐或是被詐的情形能否有源頭管理或是其他的因應措施，我想這個部分還是請次長大概說明一下。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們現在在失聯移工的部分，主要的原因是臺灣的經濟環境，他如果在外面所謂的黑工市場打工，他的工作機會多，酬勞也可能比他原本的工作高，所以就變成是誘使他失聯的主要理由。我們現在在查緝的部分，移民署有在加強所有的查緝力道，並沒有停下來；至於移工本身涉詐的部分，我們現在在查緝的過程裡面，我們會從每一個個案去回溯他涉詐的原因跟他背後的集團，所以這部分移民署跟警政署都有配合，雙方有做資訊交流。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，另外就是對於我們要提升識詐的能力，有可能會減少受騙情形的產生，包括透過各種的傳播管道來製作不同形式的這種宣傳，隨時可以更新防詐的資訊，例如勞動部有製作相關的這些圖卡。包括有英文、泰文、越南文，還有印尼文等版本，移民署還有加入緬甸文還有柬埔寨文，其他部會則不一定有提供相關語言版本，但如果都是為了要讓外籍人士能夠獲取最新的防詐相關宣導資訊，這個部分我想應該由內政部來主責，是不是可以來整合，讓防詐的文宣有更多語言版本能夠更完備？"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，刑事局會把詐騙的各種手法，以多國語言提供給各相關部會，來做識詐的一個宣導。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我還是請我們指揮中心跟警政署來加強相關的研議，讓我們識詐的宣傳能夠更加地友善。另外，對於國內少年涉詐的情形也越來越嚴重，近年來已經查獲上萬人，我們各級學校現在都應該有相關的法治教育，有向這些學生來宣導切勿以身試法，但先前我們警方的統計數字顯示，明知違法仍然要從事詐騙行為的犯案，少年占了七成以上。這部分顯然我們的法治教育出現了警訊，有必要再進行研議和改善，對於在學校裡面上課的同學，我們或許比較能夠掌握情況，但對於在校園以外的地方，更是能夠誘使青少年接觸詐騙行為的地方啦！我們應該要如何來防堵詐團對於青少年的接觸，以降低我們這些少年觸法的機會？"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，少年去觸犯詐團，當然少年有可能是學生啦！"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["張署長榮興：我們發現111年少年去犯詐欺犯罪，我們抓到大概有三百八十幾個人；112年有七百多人；113年到12月大概也有七百多，這個趨勢是上升的，裡面的案件看起來大概都是以人頭或者帳戶的居多。至於怎麼樣去做防堵呢？第一個，就是要去做一個識詐的宣導，宣導的部分，我們特別強調你不要認為自己是少年，所以沒有責任，你家長要負連帶的責任，讓他犯罪之前能夠有所嚇阻。第二部分，對於這些高風險的少年，我們會再加強做瞭解跟查緝。我所謂的高風險，可能是失學啦、輟學啦這些中輟生，也會特別去瞭解有沒有這個情形。第三個部分，對於少年犯罪的教唆者，我們會加強去做幕後集團的一個查緝，不管是校園內跟校園外或者是失學、中輟生這些，我們會全方面來做一個瞭解跟解決。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝署長，也謝謝次長。對於我們早上到現在許多委員在關心的，我希望各部會，不管是識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐、懲詐，相關的這些部會應該要如何來分工、如何來落實，我相信這才是最重要的，確實讓我們臺灣被詐騙的情形看能不能快速地來降低，我相信這是全民所希望，也是所有民眾最期待的啦！也可以確實來保護我們所有人民生命財產的一個安全啦，以上，謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝接下來請羅智強委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752e8a6ddd15b1ef6027f9c834d54a4e02c40b19c4a6d232d9156c01e1ed2fe403d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:23:29 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謝謝邱昭偉請這個劉主委請國會劉主委"},{"start":16.519,"end":42.695,"text":"主委我先呼應剛剛昭偉跟剛剛這個陳林波委員的就是我覺得很多的政策還是希望能夠思考南部的思維就是因為很多中央機關是在北部那如果距離南北之間有時候南部的思維會有很大的落差我希望能夠多點南部的思維多了解南部的實際需要甚至說關注南部這個才能讓台灣均衡發展這個對國家發展才是一個"},{"start":43.295,"end":64.079,"text":"有利而健康我先呼籲好的謝謝接下來我先請教一下各機關期都看好今年度的經濟成長狀況大概到3.96甚至於會達到4%甚至到4.1%主委怎麼看我的看法大概應該是3.96是有很大的機會3.96怎樣應該是很大的機會應該沒有問題我看3.96沒問題那破4呢或到4.1%呢"},{"start":72.93,"end":73.735,"text":"或是的話﹖"},{"start":76.823,"end":103.681,"text":"主委您有什麼判斷目前看因為現在訂單都差不多了應該是有機會那甚至有的提到4.1%主委認為有機會嗎4.1%的話4是有機會中華經濟研究院預估經濟長率全年可以達到4.1%主委認同這樣這個還是要看AI Server的出貨因為前一陣子因為它有過熱的現象它佔比重佔的蠻高的所以主委認為4應該是機會比較大但是4.1要看整個狀況"},{"start":106.083,"end":125.752,"text":"那明年度的部分呢?2025年一般預期會過3%主委的看法呢?我目前看是會過3%過3%沒問題那變數大概川普是個因素嗎?主要是川普絕對是大因素那大概哪幾個面向主委認為會影響到整個台灣的經濟成長率?"},{"start":128.593,"end":140.22,"text":"基本上我在看川普的變數雖然是很大如果他目前只實施對中國60%的制裁的話其實對我們來講是比較有利多的現象"},{"start":144.122,"end":166.468,"text":"所以對於中國的制裁的60%的部分的話對台灣對台灣是有利的會有很大的反彈效力所以法對我們的經濟成長力有可能會再提升對第二個事情他對中國是越來越鷹派所以對於技術的禁令等等都會對台灣有很大就有可能會在跟台灣的合作技術的一些移轉甚至技術取得會更大對會加強所以"},{"start":167.708,"end":168.229,"text":"其他國家有10%的制裁"},{"start":184.049,"end":209.886,"text":"這個制裁因為跟大家都差不多就是10%對全球、中國以外的那唯一有一點影響的會是這個部分但是這個也是全球都有的全球都有但是一般來講以2016年來看當時台商都是FOB我們報離岸價然後美國廠商去報關去付關稅但是當時因為調高太快有些廠商受不了會請台商"},{"start":210.726,"end":211.847,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":233.886,"end":256.379,"text":"特別是他們的政策啦有些他原型繼續競選搶的話跟最後實際落實到底有什麼樣的落差隨時調整我們政策來面對這個我們有在觀察好謝謝那接下來請教一下全台的企業大家都看好台灣的國家景氣甚至也開始重視勝利了台灣應該整個都走在正確的道路上主委同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":257.259,"end":285.53,"text":"我同意整個幾乎同事啦我看從8年前這樣一路到那種上任之後幾乎一路在我們都是在正確的道路上對以經濟成長率跟現在的就業率來看以從客觀的數據呈現也都是如此不管是包括在股市的表現包括我們的失業率3.4%整個都控制得相當好啦連我們的物價的部分也都其實控制得相當的不錯目前CPI在2以下了所以我認為其實整個都是在正確的道路上"},{"start":286.73,"end":314.386,"text":"那我其實反而覺得接下來在這件事上反而國發會要有更多角色來做我們都希望在經濟成長好、獲利多的時候持續的來提升我們的薪資那我認為有一件事情其實國發會是可以做的國發會有國發基金也投注了相當多在各個一些上市櫃的公司國發基金能不能多去鼓勵就是我說獲利應該要回歸到員工身上讓員工的薪資提升這也是我們的目的是吧"},{"start":315.778,"end":341.126,"text":"是的對 那我們若期盼這樣的話國發基金能不能帶頭來做就是你在一些都有一些相關的能不能在裡面做一些要求跟提案一些優質的企業其實本身就應該帶頭來做調薪公司有好的獲益公司主動寄來調薪主委同意這樣的看法嗎同意包括我們自己其實我們現在對內部我們也是用我們已經也是一樣調到了31500對我們那個我們的外包商的"},{"start":344.667,"end":361.228,"text":"其實都是啦我們公務員的挑釁我們受的國營企業的挑釁各個都挑釁我們希望民間也跟著挑釁那國發基金投注在相當多的我認為有一個政策目標我希望主動在董事會裡面主動去提案就是有好的獲利就挑釁有好的獲利"},{"start":361.628,"end":383.405,"text":"只要大了這些條心,其他大家都會跟著調我認為要帶動,國發基金要扮演這樣的角色主委這個可以嗎?這個可以另外同時間也希望未來透明化國發基金在投注的時候同時間也去要求除了你本身的未來的潛力跟那個以外同時間也要求你的資金、你的薪資透明化甚至於你在你的一個薪資的部分"},{"start":383.985,"end":410.98,"text":"我認為那個都可以作為是一個審查參考的依據也就是說你本身是好的獲利你本身是有潛力以外我希望你的好的獲利你的潛力你賺到的錢之後你會分到你的員工身上去讓你的人才留住讓好的企業基本上都會啦但是我希望國發會更重視這樣的原則在審查的時候讓它成為是國發基金審查的一個基本原則讓所有的優質企業都知道國發會、國發基金重視這件事情主委這個可以嗎?"},{"start":411.78,"end":436.801,"text":"這絕對可以,因為我們現在把ESG的分數放...把它納入到你們的辦法裡面好嗎?沒問題啊這兩件事情我希望立即有成果一個禮拜內給我你們最後的處理方式好不好我希望納入到你的辦法裡面同時間在董事會裡面來做正式的提案不過是一回事但是國發會的態度告訴大家有獲利了我們希望你把薪資回歸到員工身上多帶頭來調薪好不好"},{"start":438.382,"end":454.618,"text":"好,再來我講一下齁,林口的新創園其實已經上軌道,那國發會其實雅灣新創園齁,這個在高雄經濟部有做了一個雅灣新創園,我希望國發會更加大力道來支持。主委這個可以嗎?這個一定可以。全力支持好不好?好,沒問題。"},{"start":455.999,"end":482.361,"text":"定期每3個月給我一次你們投入的一些報告給我好嗎?好最後一題啦齁時間快到了主委地方創生我認為其實相當重要啦齁那整個這幾年地方創生幾乎也達到將近提案率有達到7成我認為其實是蠻重要的一個成果啦齁特別是對很多比較偏遠的或者一些我認為蠻有成果的主委找機會來到高雄來特別是基金啦齁基金地方創生"},{"start":483.322,"end":483.502,"text":"第2項第3項第4項"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時23分）謝謝邱召委，請劉主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我先呼應剛剛召委跟陳亭妃委員說的，我覺得很多的政策還是希望能夠思考南部的思維，因為很多中央機關在北部，關於南北之間，有時候對於南部的思維會有很大的落差，我希望能夠多點南部的思維、多了解南部的實際需要，甚至多關注南部，這樣才能讓臺灣均衡發展，這個對國家發展才是有利而健康，我先呼應！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來，我先請教一下，各機關其實都看好今年度的經濟成長狀況大概到3.96%，甚至於會達到4%，甚至到4.1%，主委怎麼看？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的看法應該是3.96%有很大的機會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：3.96%怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該是很大的機會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：應該沒有問題，我看3.96%沒問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，應該是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那破4%或到4.1%呢？主委，你的判斷呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前看來，破4%的話也是有機會，因為現在訂單都差不多了，應該是有機會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：甚至有的提到4.1%，主委認為有機會嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：4.1%的話……4%是有機會，4.1%我們……"],["賴委員瑞隆：中華經濟研究院預估經濟成長率全年可以達到4.1%，主委認同這樣的看法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這個還是要看AI server的出貨……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，當然這一段時間……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為前一陣子因它有過熱的現象，它占比重占得滿高的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以主委認為4%應該機會比較大，但是4.1%要看整個狀況？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還是要看AI server……"],["賴委員瑞隆：那明年度的部分呢？2025年一般預期會過3%，主委的看法呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我目前看是會過3%。"],["賴委員瑞隆：過3%沒問題？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，會過。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那變數大概……川普是個因素嗎？川普的一些政策？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主要川普絕對是大因素。"],["賴委員瑞隆：大概哪幾個面向主委認為會影響到整個臺灣的經濟成長率？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：基本上依我看，川普的變數雖然是很大，如果他目前只實施對中國60%制裁的話，其實對我們來講是比較有利多的現象，唯獨……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以對中國制裁60%的部分，對臺灣等於是有利多？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對臺灣是有利的、會有很大的轉單效應。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以反而對我們的經濟成長率有可能會再提升？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。第二個事情，他對中國是越來越鷹派，所以對於技術的禁令等等都會對臺灣有很大的幫助。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就有可能會在跟臺灣的合作、一些技術的移轉，甚至技術取得會更大的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，會加強，所以我是比較覺得利多、利大於弊。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你看來是認為利多？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：唯一比較大的就是兩個因素，一個是我們的貿易量；第二個，他對於其他國家有10%的制裁，那這個制裁因為跟大家都差不多，就是10%對全球、中國以外的，唯一有一點影響的會是這個部分，變數還是滿大的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是這個也是全球都有的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：全球都有，對，但是一般來講，以2016年來看，當時臺商都是FOB嘛，我們報離岸價，然後美國廠商去報關、付那個關稅，但是當時因為調高太快，有些廠商受不了會請臺商一起負擔，大概只有影響到這一塊，但是當時不是每一家都要求臺商跟著負擔。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望國發會密切注意這樣的狀況，因為國發會也是重要的政府大腦，我們希望隨時調控國家的一些政策來讓臺灣的經濟成長率持續往上推升。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，我們隨著他的內閣公告以後，我們會不斷的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：特別是他們的政策，有些他沿襲競選講的話，跟最後實際落實到底有什麼樣的落差？隨時調整我們的政策來面對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這個我們有在觀察。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。","接下來，我請教一下，全臺的企業都看好臺灣的國家景氣，甚至也開始重視聲譽，臺灣應該整個都走在正確的道路上，主委同意這樣的看法吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我同意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：整個幾乎都是，我看從八年前一路到賴總統上任之後，幾乎一路我們都是在正確的道路上。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，以經濟成長率跟現在的就業率來看。"],["賴委員瑞隆：從客觀的數據呈現也都是如此，不管是……包括在股市的表現、包括我們的出口。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：包括我們的失業率三點四幾也是相當低。"],["賴委員瑞隆：整個都控制得相當好，連我們的物價部分其實也都控制得算相當不錯。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，目前CPI在2以下了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是，我認為其實整個都是在正確的道路上。我覺得在正確的道路上之後，反而國發會要有更多角色來做，我們都希望在經濟成長好、獲利多的時候持續來提升我們的薪資，那我認為有一件事情其實國發會是可以做的，國發會有國發基金、也投注了相當多在一些上市櫃公司，那國發基金能不能多去鼓勵？就是我說獲利應該要回歸到員工身上、讓員工的薪資提升，這也是我們的目的，是吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，我們如果期盼這樣的話，國發基金能不能帶頭來做？就是你在相關的裡面能不能做一些要求跟提案，一些優質的企業其實本身就應該帶頭來做調薪，公司有好的獲利，公司主動積極來調薪，主委同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：同意，包括我們自己，其實我們現在對內部也是一樣調到3萬1,500，對我們外包商的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：其實都是，我們公務員的調薪、我們所有的國營企業調薪，各個都調薪，我們希望民間也跟著調薪。那國發基金投注在相當多的，我認為有一個政策目標，我希望主動在董事會裡面提案。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是有好的獲利就調薪，只要大的這些調薪，其他大家都會跟著調，我認為要帶動，國發基金要扮演這樣的角色，主委，這個可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，同時間也希望未來透明化，國發基金在投注的時候同時間也去要求，除了它本身、未來的潛力以外，同時也要求資金、薪資透明化，甚至它在薪資的部分，我認為那個都可以作為一個審查參考的依據，也就是說，它本身是好的獲利、本身是有潛力以外，我希望你的獲利、你的潛力，在你賺到錢之後，你會分到你的員工身上去，讓你的人才留住，好的企業基本上都會，但是我希望國發會更重視這樣的原則，在審查的時候，讓它成為是國發基金審查的一個基本原則，讓所有的優質企業都知道國發會、國發基金重視這件事情。主委，這個可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這絕對可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我們現在把ESG的分數……"],["賴委員瑞隆：把它納入到你們的辦法裡面，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，這兩件事情我希望立即有成果，一個禮拜內給我你們最後的處理方式，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望納入到你的辦法裡面，同時間在董事會裡面來做正式的提案。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：過不過是一回事，但是國發會的態度要告訴大家，有獲利了，我們希望你把薪資回歸到員工身上，多多帶頭來調薪，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我講一下，林口的新創園已經上軌道了，在高雄經濟部也做了一個亞灣新創園，我希望國發會更加大力道來支持，主委，這個可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個一定可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：全力支持，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：定期、每三個月給我一次你們投入的一些報告，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，最後一題，時間也快到了。主委，地方創生我認為其實相當重要，這幾年地方創生提案的成功率達到七成，我認為其實是滿重要的一個成果，特別是對於很多比較偏遠的，或者一些……我認為滿有成果的。主委，找機會到高雄來，特別是旗津，旗津的地方創生有很重要的一些功能，到高雄來跟大家了解一下，也希望可以鼓勵更多地方創生的團隊。北部相對強，南部這些團隊的提案能力或者資源相對弱一些，來南部走走，跟這些創生團隊談一下，來聽聽他們的聲音，同時用更多的力氣來支援他們做地方創生的提案，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["主席：賴委員時間掌握之精準，令人敬佩！主委請回座。","我們在楊瓊瓔委員質詢完之後會休息。下一位質詢請……"],["賴委員瑞隆：等你講完再休息。"],["主席：什麼？"],["賴委員瑞隆：等邱志偉講完再休息。"],["主席：因為10點半大家可能要去洗手間。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，那我待會再過來。"],["主席：好，下一位質詢請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-16","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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需，比如你們常常是配合政府的政策，但這部分不見得可以跟社會上一些擁有相關專業的技職人才競爭。比如現在無人機很盛行，好像就一直在排無人機，可是每一個地方發展的不一樣，無人機當然很重要，可是這是不是他們適合的？類似這樣還包括以前有很多烘焙的課程，其實真正從事的還真的不多。尤其現在要跟其他可能從學校出來的人去競爭，好像也不是那麼容易，所以就這一些還有沒有什麼可以更精進的作法？"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員的指導，我們可能要針對剛剛委員指導的真正問題在哪裡，要找出原因來，他到底為什麼沒有去就業，而且有這麼好的一個穩定就業基金的配套措施，可能就在工作的契合上，所以將來怎麼樣強化產訓合一，讓就業率到100%，只要訓出來之後，他在各行各業及各企業都能夠100%媒合，還要再做深入一層的調查跟了解。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們看到其實最穩定的大概就是像保全這些相關的，長期以來這個部分好像非常穩定，如果說就我們退伍軍人這些相關的部分，比較可能是他有經驗，或者比較容易去執行的相關職業，我覺得可以去強化，就這個部分，我們還是希望以他過去的經驗，還有我們開的課程下去做一些調整，因為我們看到報告的內容是說成效非常好，可是它的就業率又是下降的，這樣是矛盾的，所以我們還是希望可以有一些比較有效的作法。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員指導。"],["馬委員文君：另外，我們也看到在明年的一般行政、基本行政工作維持還有約用人員的酬金相關編列的預算上面，有關退輔會回復的說明裡面，114年要進用約用人員大概有9名，每月的薪資、年終獎金還有雇主負擔全民健保費等等大概編了722萬7,000元。這9名約僱人員裡面包含人事處有1名，這部分你們的回復是說要辦理榮民公司退輔業務相關資料建檔工作，在事業管理處也增加了6名，這都是臨時人員，要協助辦理榮民公司的清算完結，他的薪資大概每個月有7萬3,000元，剛剛提到人事處1名每個月有5萬元。我想要知道有關榮民公司，我們已經從很久很久以前都一直說已經要結束，可是到現在又要因為相關業務去聘請臨時人員，它的原因是什麼？他是辦理什麼樣的工作，其薪資可以有5萬元跟7萬3,000元？如果他是很專業的，我希望可以說明清楚，因為最近大家對於像這樣臨時人員的薪資是有關注的。"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，榮民公司109年就清算結束了，行政院給我們的命令是明年114年1月1號要由退輔會把原來榮民公司在承辦後續這些措施的人員全部吸收，就是到我們退輔會來做這些清算的工作，詳細工作內容是怎樣，我請處長跟您報告。"],["馬委員文君：吸收什麼樣的人員？"],["嚴主任委員德發：就是原來在榮民工程公司辦清算工作的人，因為當年他們的保險費都已經發了，現在要追繳，到133年才能夠全部追繳完。"],["馬委員文君：那些都是原來我們的退輔人員嗎？都是榮民嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：都是榮民工程公司。"],["馬委員文君：榮民工程公司？可是我們在相關的條例裡面也限制了，如果是退伍軍人，你有上限，如果還是在我們政府部門做相關工作的話，你的上限是3萬4,140元，現在當然到三萬六千多，可是你這邊編列一個是七萬三千多，一個是五萬，這個經費顯然不是用退伍軍人。"],["嚴主任委員德發：再跟委員說明一下。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長。跟委員報告，我們在109年榮工公司進入清算，到今年年底為止，已經大幅縮減百分之九十九點多的業務，都已經完成……"],["馬委員文君：要不然簡單告訴我們，這幾個人是要做什麼？他領這樣的薪資是要做什麼？"],["楊處長長政：這幾個人從109年開始原本就是榮民工程公司的人，留下6個人來幫我們、協助我們……"],["馬委員文君：109年開始才進用的？"],["楊處長長政：對，那個時候的人員預算是編在我們榮民公司的清算階段，現在因為清算結束了，要回到我們輔導會來，因為行政院已經通知我們了，同意我們從114年1月1號開始，所以說這些人就從榮民公司清算的階段……"],["馬委員文君：沒有，你告訴我們，因為退輔會照顧的是榮民。今天如果在榮民公司的所有相關業務或者清算的業務都已經結束以後我們還要用這些人，然後他的薪資是七萬三跟五萬，我們想要知道他未來是要做什麼工作，很清楚地告訴我們，他們做什麼工作。"],["楊處長長政：我們榮民公司業務結算之前，現在還有勞保補償金的追償，還有7億8,000萬要追回來，這是第一個。第二個，我們還有6件訴訟案。"],["馬委員文君：需要用到7個人？"],["楊處長長政：還要保固。"],["馬委員文君：所以需要用到7個人，然後他們的薪資要7萬3,000元，比你們在限制自己退伍軍人的金額還要高一倍以上，所以……"],["楊處長長政：報告委員，這些都是因為他們屬於勞工的身分，當初榮民公司就是用這些錢請他們來執行工作，因為他們在榮民公司年資都20年以上了，而且裡面還有工程師、有會計專長的人員……"],["馬委員文君：你把那幾個人相關的背景資料提供給我們，好不好？"],["楊處長長政：是，沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：在預算審查的時候，我們再來看看。"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["馬委員文君：如果你有一些專業，你有符合這樣的薪資，我們沒有意見，因為其實臺灣長期以來是處於低薪的階段，可是我們現在要說的是榮民公司已經結束了，你卻要繼續用7個人，而且是他的薪資不低的情況之下來做這些事，我們不知道做什麼事，因為每年我們在審預算的時候，退輔會都告訴我們榮民公司已經要完成、已經結束了，什麼都已經做得差不多，你現在又花這麼多的錢去執行這些工作，請把他的執行業務還有他的必要性提供給本委員會，還有提供給本席參考，好不好？"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以送到？"],["楊處長長政：兩個禮拜送給委員。"],["馬委員文君：兩個禮拜？這個要那麼久嗎？一個禮拜好了，謝謝。"],["楊處長長政：沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員。","接下來我們請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra 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我們已經馬上啟動調查我們一個禮拜內會有調查 這個莊署長剛剛已經有我請部長要加快啦 因為我認識部長也沒有多久我希望你能夠留下來好不好"},{"start":150.832,"end":174.839,"text":"我們一定不容許有職場霸凌的現象這不是個人的問題是說整個國家就應該要這樣子我們才是一個幸福安康的社會回到今天的主要的議題昨天本土小牙醫聯盟跟海外牙醫的家長在高等法院外面為了你吵架你知道嗎"},{"start":177.011,"end":181.46,"text":"報告委員跟我應該我只是代表對我們在前期在把過去長期的爭議"},{"start":186.834,"end":192.761,"text":"臺灣社會對於撥撥醫生不只是牙醫的部分直接一點就是說拿錢去波蘭醫學店洗學歷之後回來考照的醫生大家普遍都會覺得害怕"},{"start":206.897,"end":224.135,"text":"那部長你認為臺灣人民的健康守護者還是波波醫生的你認為你是臺灣人民健康的守護者還是波波醫生的守門員你的立場跟態度是?我必須要再重申我完全沒有特定的對哪一個"},{"start":224.996,"end":240.812,"text":"群組的一個部長那你可不同意啊中間有非常非常多的我也不曉得為什麼包括111年6月我們在這邊用心的來通過一個議事法的修法那個是我前程在這邊讓他那個法通過"},{"start":241.733,"end":247.956,"text":"我也沒有提任何一個互貸結議那好部長我請問你一個問題我有提互貸結議我知道我知道然後這個計畫也是幾年來也是在我們就任之前核定的對啦反而我上任的時候就覺得有問題你現在不要講啦我請問你啦好的醫療品質"},{"start":265.163,"end":276.822,"text":"有嚴格的教育養成我相信部長也認同吧那台灣的醫生的養成跟波蘭醫生的養成哪一個更嚴謹你覺得雖然我們有修法的沒有錯"},{"start":279.963,"end":308.489,"text":"那你覺得臺灣的臺灣的比較嚴謹還是國外的比較嚴謹我們所有讓他在臺灣行醫的醫師不管他從哪個醫學院畢業我們基本要求都要讓他有有品質能夠照顧人民的健康這是基本要求那至於說要比較良因為我家裡的第二代那個很多人當醫師年輕了一輩有11個當念醫學系通通是本土醫"},{"start":310.341,"end":328.733,"text":"所以我沒有立場去特別要支持我們來討論一下啦就是醫生的考試我一個臺大的醫學院的老師我當然覺得我們臺灣的品質非常的嚴謹我們的教育品質非常的嚴謹那我們來討論一下醫生的考試111年你剛剛講的修了醫師法第四之一條從112年開始用國外學歷參加考試"},{"start":336.778,"end":362.636,"text":"要先經過教育部學歷徵試通過才能參加醫師考試那國內要念醫學院門檻本來就比較高一點通常念到大三大四就會參加第一階段的國考那經過實習之後畢業後再考第二階段的國考才有考試及格證書號申請到衛福部的醫師證書之後才能夠算一個合格的醫師這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":366.79,"end":389.356,"text":"但是現在的問題裡面就是事之一裡面也有說兩個條件不用經過教育部學歷增試通過第一個就是在當地取得合法資格且實際執行臨床業務5年以上第二個112年12月31日前入學的也不用現在的問題是怎麼確認他在當地實際這個臨床服務這個業務5年以上"},{"start":395.899,"end":411.103,"text":"還有一千多名的波波醫生不用不適用心法你們準備讓這些一千多位這個波波醫生快速通關嗎好我想這個醫事師師長很清楚是可不可以請他回報告跟大家報告"},{"start":411.721,"end":439.491,"text":"委員好對於就是說在這個考試制度的把關的部分的話過去在還沒修法之前是一個裁認的原則所以其實對於就是說我們把裁認原則修在議事法實行細則這也近日快要將要公佈所以才會是說在把關的部分其實不裡面這邊我們的方向程度之前部長就對外宣誓的是說其實我們本來就是採取嚴格的方式來做處理"},{"start":440.491,"end":467.637,"text":"對我覺得這樣子啦就是舊法不是用學歷來徵是不用學歷來徵試那他們就應該用106年頒布的學歷認證去共識去認證我覺得是這樣不管用新法還是舊法都應該有兩道門檻我覺得應該這樣子會比較嚴謹那我也看到我們這個在當初我們修醫師法的時候民進黨委員一共通過七個附帶決議"},{"start":468.937,"end":477.173,"text":"那其中有5個部長都是連署人有一個提案其中有一個提案就是我們波波媽的委員部長還記得連署什麼嗎"},{"start":479.563,"end":504.844,"text":"報告委員因為我前程在嘛那有多互待結議是提供多元化的一個意見嘛我想大家委員都很清楚那我當然就是要三個委員才能成案所以我們當然是說如果有意見就提出來會議討論要到成案我只是連署讓他這個意見可以來討論而已我並沒有去提案"},{"start":506.105,"end":516.795,"text":"我發現我們現在有一個優化偏鄉醫療的計畫我怎麼看都感覺到你這個跟這個就是為了撥撥牙醫開的一個很順暢因為這個優化偏鄉其實是長久的事情"},{"start":524.341,"end":539.51,"text":"那委員可能看到就是有關於牙醫這個部分其實他其他部分是非常多要做的包括醫療轉後送等加強量能那這個部分我們政府經過這一段時間的討論已經在這裡面上禮拜重申我想總統有提到每年不會超過50名第一個每年50名那個結論不會提高"},{"start":553.058,"end":578.258,"text":"第二個我們一定按照112年6月通過的藝師法的修法去嚴格執行那第三個就是有關於偏鄉計畫的話我們只在牙醫這邊只限於55個沒有牙醫師的鄉鎮因為他們那個地方的確真的是需要你現在提到我們預算是不是要調整那個因為預算來處理這個"},{"start":579.878,"end":582.12,"text":"我希望我要講的就是說這些偏鄉本來醫療資源就比較少"},{"start":606.641,"end":627.972,"text":"那我不希望我們部裡面拿這些偏鄉的我們的這個國人來當實驗的一個地方讓我們這些伯伯牙醫能夠順利的拿到這個醫師執照我希望衛福部能夠更嚴謹的來看守這樣可以嗎我們這個計畫會做調整那另外我們苗栗這個九個衛生所也非常缺醫生"},{"start":629.033,"end":638.666,"text":"那真的這個醫生也非常的不足非常需要部裡面的資源請部長多多協助也希望我們會跟縣政府這邊來一起來討論看怎麼一起來解決好的謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時18分）主席好，還是有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。有關勞動部勞動力發展署北分署霸凌的事情，昨天何佩珊部長辭職負責，但今天又傳出，我剛剛看很多委員也在提這個案子，就是疾管署某組長也有霸凌同仁的情形，情況與謝宜容的狀況非常相同，你知道這件事嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為最近都有一些……"],["邱委員鎮軍：來，我們先聽一段錄音檔，好不好？","（播放錄音）"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，您聽一下，這聲音你認得嗎？你看他的作法是目的良善的溝通嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然我覺得語氣太……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你會不會比照勞動部來處理？"],["邱部長泰源：一定會啊，我們已經馬上啟動調查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你剛剛講這兩天就會有報告，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一個禮拜內會有調查，莊署長剛剛已經有把整個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請部長要加快啦，我認識部長也沒有多久，我希望你能夠留下來，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定不容許有職場霸凌的現象，這不是個人的問題，而是說整個國家就應該要這樣子，才是一個幸福安康的社會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，我們就回到今天的主要議題，昨天本土小牙醫聯盟跟海外牙醫的家長在高等法院外面為了你吵架，你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，跟我應該……"],["邱委員鎮軍：他們就是想知道你……"],["邱部長泰源：我只是代表衛福部在承襲，把過去長期的爭議，剛好到我這個階段，我當然是用最大的誠意、最大的努力來解決過去長期的爭議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道一直以來我們臺灣社會對於波波醫生，不只是牙醫的部分，直接一點就是說拿錢去波蘭醫學院學店洗學歷之後，回來考照的醫生，大家普遍都會覺得害怕。部長，你認為你是臺灣人民健康的守護者還是波波醫生的守門員？你的立場跟態度是怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我必須要再重申，我完全沒有特定對哪個群組支持。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長，那你同不同意……"],["邱部長泰源：這中間有非常、非常多的……我也不曉得為什麼，包括111年6月我們在這邊用心地在通過醫師法的修法……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我有看到。"],["邱部長泰源：那是我全程在這邊讓這個法通過，我也沒有提任何一個附帶決議……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長，我請問你一個問題……"],["邱部長泰源：為什麼一直講我有提附帶決議呢？"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道、我知道，你聽我……"],["邱部長泰源：然後這個計畫也是幾年來一直……"],["邱委員鎮軍：111年修醫師法第四十一條嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：也是在我們就任之前核定的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，這個我知道啦。"],["邱部長泰源：反而我上任的時候就覺得有問題，所以就一直……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我請問部長，部長，你先不要講，我請問你，好的醫療品質有嚴格的教育養成，我相信部長也認同吧，那你覺得臺灣的醫生養成跟波蘭的醫生養成哪一個更嚴謹呢？雖然我們有修法了沒有錯，但你覺得臺灣的比較嚴謹還是國外的比較嚴謹？"],["邱部長泰源：所有在臺灣行醫的醫師，不管他是從哪一個醫學院畢業，我們基本要求就是要讓他有品質，能夠照顧人民的健康，這是基本要求。至於說要比較兩個國家，因為我家裡的第二代有很多人當醫生，年輕一輩有11、12個念醫學系，通通是本土醫，所以我沒有立場特別要支持誰。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們來討論一下，就是醫生的考試……"],["邱部長泰源：但是以我是一個臺大醫學院的老師……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個我知道，我知道你的立場。"],["邱部長泰源：我當然覺得我們臺灣的教育品質非常地嚴謹。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣子，好，我們來討論一下醫生的考試。就像你剛剛講的，111年修了醫師法第四條之一，從112年開始，用國外學歷參加考試，要先經過教育部學歷甄試通過才能參加醫師考試，國內要念醫學院，門檻本來就比較高一點，通常念到大三、大四就會參加第一階段的國考，經過實習之後，畢業後再考第二階段的國考，才有考試及格證書，申請到衛福部的醫師證書之後，才能夠算一個合格的醫師，這樣沒錯吧？對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是現在的問題就是，第四條之一裡面也有說兩個條件不用經過教育部學歷甄試通過，第一個，在當地取得合法資格且實際執行臨床業務5年以上；第二個，112年12月31日前入學的也不用。現在的問題是，怎麼確認他在當地有實際臨床業務5年以上，還有一千多名的波波醫生不適用新法，你們準備讓這一千多位波波醫生快速通關嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個事情醫事司長很清楚，可不可以請他跟大家報告？"],["劉司長越萍：委員好，對於這個考試制度把關的部分，過去在還沒修法之前，是基於一個採認的原則，所以我們會就採認原則修在醫事法施行細則，近日就會公布，所以在把關的部分，部裡面的方向誠如之前部長對外宣示的，其實我們本來就是會採取嚴格的方式來處理，以上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：舊法是不用學歷來甄試，他們就應該用106年頒布的學歷認證共識去認證，我覺得不管用新法還是舊法，都應該有兩道門檻，這樣子才會比較嚴謹。","而我也看到當初修醫師法的時候，民進黨委員一共通過了7個附帶決議，其中5個部長都是連署人，而且其中有一個提案就是我們波波媽委員所提的，部長還記得是連署什麼嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為我全程都在，附帶決議是提供多元化的意見，我想委員都很清楚，而且要3個委員才能成案，所以我們當然是基於，如果有意見就提出來會議討論，而我只是連署讓他的這個意見可以成案、可以拿來討論而已，但我並沒有去提案。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我發現我們現在有一個優化偏鄉醫療計畫，但我怎麼看都感覺到你這是為了波波牙醫所開的一個……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，釐清一下，這個優化偏鄉計畫是一個長久的事情，委員看到的可能就是有關於牙醫的部分，但是它其他部分是有非常多要做的，包括醫療轉後送、加強量能等等，這個部分我們政府經過這一段時間的討論，已經在上禮拜有所重申，我想總統也有提到。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！總統有提到每年不會超過50名，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，原來每年50名的那個，絕對不會提高。第二個，我們一定按照112年6月通過的醫療法修法內容嚴格執行。第三個，有關於偏鄉計畫，在牙醫部分，只限55個沒有牙醫師的鄉鎮，因為他們那些地方的確真的是需要牙醫師……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我們的預算是不是又要調整？"],["邱部長泰源：用預算來處理、來鼓勵這55個，其實也是很需要的，因為我們會鼓勵他到衛生所，而衛生所一定沒有牙科設備，所以就必須買牙科設備給他，此外，還要給他保障薪水……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我知道，現在我的時間也到了，所以我的立場是……"],["邱部長泰源：請放心，偏鄉這55個完全是有醫師執照的，而且是本國優先，就是這樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我要講的是，這些偏鄉本來醫療資源就比較少，我不希望我們部裡面拿這些偏鄉的國人來當實驗的對象，讓我們這些波波牙醫能夠順利地拿到醫師執照，我希望衛福部能夠更嚴謹地來看守，這樣可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們這個計畫會做調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我們苗栗9個衛生所也非常缺醫生，非常需要部裡面的支援，請部長多多協助。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會跟縣政府一起來討論，看怎麼樣一起來解決。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好的，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。報告委員會，我們在蘇清泉委員質詢完之後休息10分鐘。"],["主席（邱委員鎮軍代）：接下來我們請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}},{"id":"157285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752b3c451f2c7cf79c95f16e2c62e3913b440b19c4a6d232d91e07d3bc095bcb0085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:05:19 - 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":354,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時5分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。首先我要問你有關於食安的問題，部長，你有在吃薑黃粉嗎？你有吃咖哩嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我很喜歡吃咖哩。"],["王委員育敏：我要跟你講的就是蘇丹紅的食安問題爆不完，從辣椒粉到咖哩粉，到現在最新的是薑黃粉，一直都出現問題。蘇丹紅沒有在市面上完全消失，11月4號我質詢有關於咖哩粉的事件，然後你們才去查，查了薑黃粉業者22家，現在爆發出來德和公司的薑黃粉有蘇丹紅，1萬公斤已經售出五千七百多公斤，你們下架回收的才1,861公斤，很多人都吃下肚了，你們現在的查法就是委員爆到哪裡，你們才查到哪裡，都沒有超前部署。","現在有非常多的長輩，他們覺得薑黃粉是很好的養生食品，所以都買這種大瓶的回來加在飯裡面或者是沖泡來喝，他覺得吃越多越健康，是養生的，所以越是這樣子的一個標榜養生的食品，你就應該要更仔細的把關。到目前為止，現在你們去查的薑黃粉是印度的公司進口對不對？現在邊境薑黃粉你們的目標對象是印度，但是你看看這個報關資料，只有印度進口薑黃粉嗎？沒有哦！目前包括越南、中國、馬來西亞、印尼、西班牙、斯里蘭卡等，我們所看到的報關資料，這6個國家也都有進口薑黃粉，你們之前因為印度的出問題，你們就只監控印度，現在越南變成是最大宗，我就問你，越南進口的薑黃粉你能確保它的品質百分之百沒有問題？你們有逐批查驗嗎？有或沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們當然印度的從這一年來就全面監視、查驗蘇丹紅……"],["王委員育敏：我問你越南現在有沒有監視？"],["邱部長泰源：越南的部分請莊署長回答一下。"],["王委員育敏：有嗎？我看是沒有吧！"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，剛剛委員有提醒我們，其實上次查到剛開始薑黃出問題的時候是因為特調咖哩粉，後來我們清查它裡面的所有原料才發現是薑黃粉。跟委員特別報告一件事情是，我們那天查出來以後，我們就回溯了三年之內所有進來的印度薑黃粉，然後查了22批，中間只有1批出現問題，所以我們就開始回溯他們的這些東西。"],["王委員育敏：我現在問你的就是你回溯的是印度，越南現在又變成大宗，從10月份的資料看起來，越南比印度進口的還要多，你們就只監控印度，越南你們現在有去抽驗嗎？越南的有沒有問題？"],["莊署長聲宏：現在我們的同仁正在確定，它如果現在進來，我們會開始加強抽驗批，會先從後市場這邊開始查起。"],["王委員育敏：所以你現在還沒有掌握嘛！我就是要提醒你們，不要委員問一件事情，你們查一件，你們應該要全面性的監控跟整頓。我要再次強調，目前薑黃粉是很夯的，這個對於老人家來講，他們在保健方面是很相信的，所以不應該再去添加不必要的添加物，包括蘇丹紅在裡面，這樣才能確保這些很重視養生的長者的健康。我要求的是你們應該要全面，像這樣子的產品你已經查出第一批，你就應該要全面性的查，這些進口的來源通通都要查清楚，要嚴格的把關，做不做得到？"],["莊署長聲宏：做得到，報告委員，現在所有的薑黃粉不管哪一國進口，我們現在一律全部列入監視查驗。"],["王委員育敏：好，全面的去監視查驗，我們要確保大家吃的是沒有問題的。","接下來我要問有關於輸液的問題，部長，我讓你看一張很誇張的班表，這個是某一家藥廠9月份跟地方政府提出它的加班需求，這當中你知道嗎？我看到最驚悚的是有人加班時數高達150.5到160小時，它跟地方政府申請它有員工需要加班150到160小時，有一個人是這樣子，超過100小時的總共有6個人，你知道一個勞工如果加班超過150小時是什麼概念嗎？每天工作要長達12個小時，加上週休二日都不要休，都要上班，是這樣的狀態，就等於他變成機器人，整整一個月都不能休息的狀態，你有掌握嗎？有藥廠9月份跟地方政府申報它需要的是勞工這麼過勞超時加班來趕輸液，而你們卻對外說輸液通通夠，沒有問題，但是有藥廠是用這樣子的方式在幫忙趕工，這個是你們自己去要求勞動部幫你們解套，你們自己輸液做不完，然後行文到勞動部，請勞動部放寬這個條件。你們運用的是這種天災事變突發事件，勞基法第三十二條第四項跟第四十條的特殊加班幫你們開一個後門，讓藥廠可以打破天花板，然後要求勞工不斷地加班，只為了趕你們的輸液。你們對外又宣稱說輸液是夠的，但是有藥廠提出這麼誇張的加班時數，這個到底是為什麼？部長，你有掌握嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，有，其實這整個過程相關的部門都非常努力，我也都有掌握狀況，我們當然嚴格的……就是說加班只能為了人工輸液，一定要在勞動部核可的情況之下，這是我們基本的要求。至於這樣的努力之下的確是度過了困難的、艱苦的時期，雖然現在的使用上有些醫療院所因為包裝大小的問題還是有一些困擾，但是至少量方面是夠的，至於是不是有掌握這樣超過這麼多，是不是莊署長有沒有……"],["王委員育敏：這個有啊！這個我調到的資料就是這樣。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，這次因為輸液的問題，我們請臺灣的生產藥廠加班，這件事情我們也請勞動部同意加班，但是整個文來的時候，我們是希望它要在符合勞基法的要求之下。這幾家特殊超時加班，那時候是因為勞動部下去做勞檢的時候發現他們的時數過高，現在才開始裁罰，其他的因為這次所有的加班時數其實我們那時候都有跟廠商講，希望它還是符合勞基法的情況之下……"],["王委員育敏：你要符合勞基法，你就不應該去運用天災事變突發事件這一條，你知道這一條是太上皇條款，你只要運用了之後，它是沒有上限的，所謂的上限你們希望符合勞基法是多少？按照現行勞基法最高一個月，如果工會同意的話才到54小時，那你們用的是天災事變，所以等於是沒有天花板，當然就會變成是這個樣子啊！所以你們勞動部難辭其咎，你們造成基層的這些藥廠勞工過勞的情況，而你們通通都沒有把關，他們這麼的辛勞就是為了應付你們輸液的問題。當時的處置不當，你們後知後覺，9月份這個班表你有看過嗎？你們知道嗎？也渾然不知，你還說你們有監督，那你們根本……我要求你們去看實際的狀況，我只關心這個勞工一個月150小時以上加班，他現在人還好嗎？有沒有爆肝？你們做為衛福部好好去關心一下吧！"],["邱部長泰源：好，報告委員，我們馬上來關心、來了解。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！這個就是非常誇張嘛！一切都是因你們而起嘛，你們就是缺乏輸液，然後你們又讓勞動部去發了一個文，而且還持續到10月31號，你們當時發出的文，它可以運用突破勞基法的第三十二條第四項、第四十條，還到10月31號。所以在這當中，我要你們去回溯、去關照到底有多少勞工在這個過程其實是爆肝的，幫你們去趕輸液。勞工的身體健康，你們衛福部好好去關照一下，我覺得這個問題其實是蠻誇張的。另外，既然輸液問題已經解決了，你們現在在預算裡面，輸液的預算從2.5要暴增到11億，為什麼？你們說現在輸液已經沒有問題了，永豐9月也已經開始恢復供應了，為什麼還要暴增到11億，你是打算要大量從國外進口嗎？你們原來只需要2.5億，為什麼暴增？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這有兩個原因，因為我們當然沒辦法完全掌握到國內或國外進口的量的數目；第二個就是，因為過去的價錢的確是太低，經過共擬會議的討論、調整，調整了以後預算當然就會……"],["王委員育敏：那我就問你，我們現在國內供應輸液的量到底夠不夠？你們對外都說夠，我就問你，到底現在足不足夠？"],["邱部長泰源：應該還是有穩定的國外輸入，加上國內的，我們一直在輔導國內的趕快恢復。"],["王委員育敏：所以現在即使永豐加入生產之後也還不夠？它還沒有量產，現在已經11月了，還不夠？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，目前還是需要仰賴專案輸入，到目前為止還是這樣，才能夠供應到第一線的使用，還沒有辦法完全由國內國產，過去都是國產供應，沒有這個專案輸入，現在仍然需要專案輸入。"],["王委員育敏：好，如果是這樣子的話，這筆預算我會嚴格監督，因為你們今年最迫切需要的預算是2.5億，照道理來講，明年我們國產的應該會加入，不需要那麼大的量，結果你們經費還暴增變成11億，顯然是有浮編的嫌疑，這個我們一定會嚴格把關。","最後我要提醒部長的就是，不可以因為你趕工去壓迫這些藥廠基層的勞工，甚至讓他爆肝，我看到這種超過100小時的加班，我覺得是不可思議，如果你們都沒有出面去處理，我覺得這就是失職。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定出面處理。我跟委員再報告一下，11億這個部分原來其實是在健保裡面，因為政府體諒到讓健保不要壓力太大，所以才特別讓11億變成公務預算。"],["王委員育敏：但這是輸液啊。"],["邱部長泰源：對，就是輸液這件事情。"],["王委員育敏：所以你原本輸液就需要11億嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：原本我們11億是要在健保的總額裡面來支付。"],["王委員育敏：好，到預算審查的時候我們會再來檢討。"],["邱部長泰源：這個要先說清楚，然後行政院很好意，就是想說不要……"],["石署長崇良：撥入健保基金。"],["王委員育敏：那個我沒有意見，但是如果你過度去膨脹輸液進口的預算，我有意見，這個要嚴格監督。"],["邱部長泰源：我想所有的價錢都一定經過共擬會議的專家大家同意的。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們審查預算的時候會嚴格來監督，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接續請邱鎮軍委員質詢。","我們在林淑芬委員發言完畢後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 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Plus我拿到的資料好不好"},{"start":233.917,"end":253.579,"text":"大概六成以上都是菲律賓人在看啊。我請教一下為什麼菲律賓人特別喜歡台灣Plus?因為今年上半年有很多南海議題我們做了相關報導跟論壇剛好有…所以是菲律賓為主回大中台灣Plus是菲律賓為大中我們講台灣跟整個亞洲的題目不好意思喔當初台灣Plus在設定的時候目標對象是誰?"},{"start":254.69,"end":276.318,"text":"是誰?是全世界的觀眾。全世界的觀眾以哪裡為主?全世界的觀眾都會是我們主要的企業。以北美為主。北美是我們主要的企業。你看一下好不好?除了北美,然後今年把新加坡加進來了。目標市場,要不要念一下?北美與新加坡。報告委員,就是2023年那一年的設定目標先從北美跟新加坡。對,所以你們每一年你們就是根據你們就是根據你們實際上狀況調整嘛。"},{"start":281.02,"end":304.334,"text":"對不對本來APP100萬做不到改成兩層然後呢目標市場本來設定北美跟新加坡然後因為做不到那我們就改成菲律賓話都是你們在講啦今天如果說你只有花100萬我相信大家也不會來這邊監督啦你花的是幾十億欸幾十億然後你拿到這樣的效果你還在那邊沾沾自喜覺得自己很棒那接下來還要花多少錢要不要100億要不要200億"},{"start":310.595,"end":320.345,"text":"請你們檢討改進好不好不要還在那邊沾沾自喜覺得自己已經很棒了請教一下你們說川普是一個被定罪的重刑犯對吧"},{"start":321.254,"end":340.513,"text":"我是在這個選舉後以這個然後後來那個新聞下架了嘛因為在記者描述上我們覺得需要調整可以改進對所以你們下架了因為你們按照你們的說法是因為那個是語意的問題不應該在當選的那一天講說最後美國人選擇了一個重刑犯你覺得這樣語意不妥所以你把它下架了對吧"},{"start":342.354,"end":365.21,"text":"那個文字本身是各大公共媒體都在用的,就是說在記者報導論述的前後我們覺得可以更好...對嘛,就是語意嘛,前後文語意嘛。對嘛,但是你們不認為說報導川普是一個重刑犯有問題,因為他是一個客觀的描述嘛。所以,實際上現在在台灣Plus的新聞裡面,還有非常多則的報導是描述川普為一個重刑犯,因為我也去看過了。但是這一點你們認為是OK的,因為你們...等一下,我還沒有問問題。"},{"start":369.253,"end":392.782,"text":"因為你們認為說川普他就是一個重刑犯啊講他是重刑犯有錯嗎所以我看到你們現在網站上還有一則新聞他就是講說川普的支持者在海湖山莊幫他慶祝的時候這個很高興因為川普呢重版白宮而且川普他是一個重刑犯你們認為這OK的因為那個是事實的描述對吧因為後來你們發新聞稿也是這樣回應的嘛"},{"start":393.602,"end":412.758,"text":"我們在新聞裡面用那個費洛尼的是用美國現有的這個定罪的一個描述。對嘛,你們認為那個就是一個描述嘛,你們不認為說描述川普是重刑犯有什麼問題嘛。那我就請教一下啦,為什麼在你們台灣plus的新聞裡面這麼喜歡講到川普是一個重刑犯?他沒有別的形容詞了嗎?"},{"start":414.783,"end":427.516,"text":"今天李遠部長也在旁邊李遠部長他我也可以有很多形容詞來形容他東去幽默的一個作家我們的文化部長或者是說他是以前台北市長柯文哲競選總部總幹事"},{"start":429.258,"end":451.223,"text":"然後呢每一次我只要講到李遠部長的時候我就一直講李遠部長來了他是柯文哲的總幹事喔李遠部長如何如何他是柯文哲總幹事我就一直強化他是柯文哲總幹事這件事情我有沒有錯沒有因為我是客觀性的描述但是為什麼我故意就這樣一直講這件事情一直講這件事情如果今天李遠部長在那邊他會覺得說欸等一下我還沒有問問題"},{"start":455.637,"end":458.719,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":479.091,"end":500.557,"text":"新聞是他支持者在海湖山莊幫他慶功你還要去講說他這個重刑犯你要講多久你們才高興我跟你講啦台灣你們還不認錯那沒有關係嘛台灣Plus就是我們外交人員的豬隊友因為我們台美外交官這麼認真在拓展外交關係我們的這個台灣Plus的經營者覺得我就是客觀描述有錯嗎"},{"start":501.96,"end":522.29,"text":"你就繼續這樣講啦,繼續這樣講啦。所以我覺得台灣普拉斯如果要這樣啦,成效不髒,就算了。我們做很多事情是先搶求不傷身體,再搶求效果。沒有效果也就罷了,錢又花了。還要當我們台美關心的豬隊友,那你就繼續,你就繼續。接下來喔,我想問部長,台灣普拉斯花了這麼多錢,"},{"start":528.603,"end":542.172,"text":"我認為錢花下去要有效果本業要先做好再想其他的剛剛也有委員在關心我們現在公視跟華視要出3000萬成立一個AI創新公司對不對對吧他是一個新創科技公司請問一下在公視法裡面哪一條是說公視可以有成立這樣的新公司是哪一條"},{"start":558.285,"end":559.646,"text":"投資他事業那也要業務需要進行投資啊?"},{"start":584.755,"end":584.895,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":608.7,"end":613.363,"text":"adequate to the new revenue of Huashi."},{"start":632.276,"end":654.707,"text":"你知不知道現在公視在進行這種會議的時候全部要求董監事一定要簽保密協議我們現在在立法院質詢都可以公開直播讓全民來看了為什麼公視花人民的納稅錢在進行投資的時候要求董監事一定要保密協議然後不能夠讓人家監督為什麼為什麼要搞黑箱作業"},{"start":656.493,"end":683.315,"text":"部長,我覺得他從以前到現在都是要簽一個保密,並不是黑箱。是,那部長你認為公視跟華視要成立創新投資公司應不應該要受到監督?應不應該?當然是啊。那請把開會的資料公開好不好?保密協議也公開,我不知道這有什麼保密的必要啊?你如果人員的薪水各自要保密啊,你現在公視進行投資都要保密這是為什麼?"},{"start":684.315,"end":705.3,"text":"怎麼可以公開?通過之後應該可以公開現在我們就要監督啦部長現在你知道大家擔心什麼事嗎?大家現在擔心的是說3000萬第一年1000萬轉給不知道哪一家公司第二年1000萬轉給不知道哪一家公司第三年1000萬不知道轉給哪一家公司3000萬就沒啦然後別人賺的飽飽啊"},{"start":707.12,"end":728.672,"text":"然後完全不能夠監督欸這個委員我跟您報告這種事情不會發生再多那是你在講啊如果說你講的都是事實的話那台灣plus當初設定APP100萬為什麼現在變20萬你們都是永遠在滾動式調整啊永遠都是時空環境變了所以大家才要事前先督嘛我現在就問了可不可以公開啊"},{"start":730.339,"end":752.755,"text":"如果這整個案子通過...不是通過,現在就要監督,因為現在大家就是擔心,你現在投資失敗誰負責?你現在投三千萬,整個轉出去,轉給下包,轉給自己人,誰負責?而且公司現在講說要成立這家公司,大家根本看不出來有成立的必要。根本看不出來有成立的必要。"},{"start":754.151,"end":772.221,"text":"我同意公開公開是不是把所有這個投資比如說投資目的然後未來的營運計畫你最後要怎麼做怎麼賺錢全部公開讓大家來看否則的話連這個東西都要搞黑箱這個我覺得這個大家是不能接受的啦不然你同意吧"},{"start":775.578,"end":802.008,"text":"不是我其實不是黑箱因為也有蠻多企業家寫信給我希望我鼓勵這個事情因為華氏的虧損一直沒有辦法停止不是部長華氏的虧損是你要把本業弄好華氏的虧損不是你不是你去成立一個AI創新公司靠AI來賺錢不然你後面那個董事長去AI公司當董事長不要來做公廣的董事長公廣的主要目的要賺錢是要把你的戲劇做好"},{"start":803.53,"end":821.035,"text":"瓜斯已經做得比過去好捏。瓜斯已經做得比過去好捏。那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒辦法賺錢嗎?你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛。那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒辦法賺錢嗎?你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛。那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒辦法賺錢嗎?你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛。那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒辦法賺錢嗎?你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛。那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒辦法賺錢嗎?你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛。那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒法賺錢嗎?你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛。那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒法賺錢嗎?你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛。那所以是因為沒有AI所以沒法賺錢嗎"},{"start":821.855,"end":848.863,"text":"慢慢慢慢有一點點站起來了所以請委員...不是,部長如果說你在本業上面你需要經濟我們都支持現在的問題是你說華社虧損我要靠成立一個AI投資公司來賺錢而且3000萬我聽起來我覺得很傻眼我真的覺得非常傻眼而且這個董事長據說是明年5月就卸任了嘛對吧在卸任前半年進行這麼大的一個投資計畫"},{"start":850.903,"end":853.585,"text":"議員議員你讓我講一句話我所認識的胡董不是這樣的人"},{"start":871.909,"end":888.645,"text":"那是你認識的啊?那是你認識的胡董嗎?跟大家認識的不見得同一個人啊?他是一個非常正直的人,所以委員您講的我可以幫他打保證啊。部長,因為胡董快要下台了,因為按照規定半年前要領選新的董事長,請問現在有新的董事長人選嗎?"},{"start":892.51,"end":906.768,"text":"您問的問題我們在進行中就是跟行政院去函給立法院要成立一個審議委員會按照政壇比例所以關於這個你就知道我以為是這樣可是你的好朋友余天在受訪的時候"},{"start":907.108,"end":909.57,"text":"愚天我不認識喔!愚天我不認識喔!愚天我不認識喔!"},{"start":924.983,"end":928.366,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":946.34,"end":971.869,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":972.17,"end":975.978,"text":"不然我跟你講現在全台灣一拜以上以為公廣的董事長是這樣來的啦。好謝謝葉雲智委員謝謝。謝謝謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":310,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時8分）麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：當初民進黨政府說要成立TaiwanPlus，4年編58億，要打造跟BBC、NHK一樣的公營平臺，到目前為止部長自己覺得效果有達到嗎？我們現在有像BBC、NHK一樣那麼厲害嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：花了幾十億了，有沒有？"],["李部長遠：我跟委員報告，從公視開始成立到現在，我們的預算都不能跟人家比，差非常、非常多。"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得58億不夠，要580億來做，是不是？"],["李部長遠：當然不是。"],["葉委員元之：當初也是你們民進黨政府講說要做這件事，4年下來，你自己也覺得不滿意，對不對？"],["李部長遠：可以改進。"],["葉委員元之：花那麼多錢，你自己也覺得不滿意。績效指標大家都看到了，我只是很好奇，當時說app下載的目標是100萬，為什麼今年已經把目標改成22萬，為什麼？還可以下修的？"],["李部長遠：這點我是不是請董事長？"],["葉委員元之：當初花那麼多錢是因為你要做到這麼高的標準及水準，才要花這麼多錢，結果花了那麼多錢達不到目標，就乾脆自己下修目標，把它修成22萬，這是為什麼？"],["李部長遠：這點我真的要請董事長來說明，因為這個沒辦法一句話講得那麼清楚。"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員說明，因為最早訂定100萬目標的時候是在中央社時代，當時部長訂定這樣的標準主要是期許，如果我沒有記錯，NKH是7年才達到100萬，這第一個要跟委員說明。第二個部分，現在全球因為各種網路和數位發展，所以app的使用量及使用率也在下降，大概是這樣的原因。"],["葉委員元之：所以目標可以亂訂喔？我今天可以隨便喊一個100萬，做不到之後就下修，現在下修到當初快五分之一了，以後民進黨政府講的話，我們都不相信，跟我們要錢的時候說要做到什麼地方，反正最後做不到再下修目標，還可以這樣！我就隨便掰理由就好了。"],["胡董事長元輝：我們有增列其他新的規管指標，那些指標都……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！因為你那個時候跟大家說為什麼要那麼多錢，因為要做到100萬下載量是你們講的，現在就是沒有做到嘛！"],["胡董事長元輝：我沒有在那個時候服務這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：你沒有服務，那你上來講幹嘛？你是代表政府在那邊講，因為每一個人都推給前朝就好了，你就推就好了啦！"],["胡董事長元輝：不是、不是，我剛剛已經解釋原因。"],["葉委員元之：第一個，我不能接受的是花這麼多錢，目標達不到，然後用下修目標的方式來提高達成率，而且你們下修目標之後，達成率都只有七成而已。第二個，我想請教一下，你們一直講TaiwanPlus的效果非常好，這是你們講的，你們說因為全球點閱率已達2億了，效果非常好，TaiwanPlus對外發布的新聞稿是這樣說的喔！但是部長不認同，部長覺得可以更好，請問這2億是怎麼算出來的？"],["余執行長佳璋：報告委員，這2億是從現有社群平臺包括YouTube、X、Twitter或是MSN等等，經過他們各自所提供的後台數據所加總的。"],["葉委員元之：這是你們加總的，是不是？"],["余執行長佳璋：對，因為各後台所計算的基礎不同，有些只能提供來源人數，有些不提供背景，所以我們把整個點擊觀看的次數加總而得的結果。"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得2億很棒，是不是？"],["余執行長佳璋：沒有，還要繼續努力。"],["葉委員元之：2億也可以灌水……"],["余執行長佳璋：沒有，我們……"],["葉委員元之：根據我拿到的資料，TaiwanPlus有大概六成以上都是菲律賓人在看，請教一下為什麼菲律賓人特別喜歡TaiwanPlus？"],["余執行長佳璋：因為今年上半年有很多南海議題，我們做了相關報導和論壇，剛好有……"],["葉委員元之：所以TaiwanPlus是以菲律賓為大宗？"],["余執行長佳璋：我們講臺灣跟整個亞太地區……"],["葉委員元之：不好意思！當初TaiwanPlus在設定的時候，目標對象是誰？"],["余執行長佳璋：是全世界的觀眾。"],["葉委員元之：全世界觀眾以哪裡為主？"],["余執行長佳璋：全世界的觀眾都會是我們主要的目標。"],["葉委員元之：以北美為主。"],["余執行長佳璋：北美是我們……"],["葉委員元之：你看一下好不好？除了北美，今年把新加坡加進來了，目標市場要不要唸一下？北美與新加坡。"],["余執行長佳璋：報告委員，這是2023年那一年的設定目標，先從北美跟新加坡……"],["葉委員元之：所以你們每一年是根據實際上的狀況調整，對不對？本來app的下載目標是100萬，做不到就改成兩成，目標市場本來是設定北美和新加坡，也因為做不到，我們就改成菲律賓，話都是你們在講！今天如果只有花100萬，我相信大家也不會來這邊監督，你花的是幾十億耶！然後拿到這樣的效果，你還在那邊沾沾自喜覺得自己很棒，接下來還要花多少錢？要不要100億？要不要200億？請你們檢討改進，好不好？不要還在那邊沾沾自喜，覺得自己已經很棒了！請教一下，你們說川普是一個被定罪的重刑犯，對吧？"],["余執行長佳璋：在選舉後，以美國的報導……"],["葉委員元之：後來那個新聞下架了嘛。"],["余執行長佳璋：因為在記者描述上，我們覺得需要調整和改進。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們下架了……"],["余執行長佳璋：下架後調整……"],["葉委員元之：按照你們的說法是那個是語意的問題，不應該在當選的那一天說最後美國人選擇了一個重刑犯，你覺得這樣的語意不妥，所以你把它下架了，對吧？"],["余執行長佳璋：不是，那個文字本身是各大公共媒體都在用的，只是在記者報導論述的前後，我們覺得可以更好……"],["葉委員元之：就是前後文的語意。"],["余執行長佳璋：就像其他媒體在……"],["葉委員元之：但是你們不認為報導川普是一個重刑犯有問題，因為它是一個客觀的描述，所以實際上，現在TaiwanPlus的新聞裡面，還有非常多則的報導是描述川普為一個重刑犯，因為我也去看過了，但是這一點你們認為是OK的……"],["余執行長佳璋：因為這個字眼本身……"],["葉委員元之：我還沒有問問題，你們認為川普就是一個重刑犯，講他是重刑犯，有錯嗎？所以我看到你們現在網站上還有一則新聞是關於川普支持者在海湖山莊幫他慶祝的時候，很高興，因為川普重返白宮，而且川普是一個重刑犯，你們認為這是OK的，因為那個是事實的描述，對吧？後來你們發新聞稿也是這樣回應的。"],["余執行長佳璋：沒有，我們在新聞裡面用的是美國現有的定罪描述……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！你們認為那就是一個描述，你們不認為描述川普是重刑犯有什麼問題，我請教一下，為什麼在TaiwanPlus的新聞裡面這麼喜歡講到川普是一個重刑犯，它沒有別的形容詞了嗎？"],["余執行長佳璋：沒有……"],["葉委員元之：今天李遠部長也在旁邊，我也可以有很多形容詞來形容李遠部長，風趣幽默的作家、我們的文化部長，或是他是以前臺北市長柯文哲競選總部總幹事，每一次我只要講到李遠部長的時候，我就一直講李遠部長來了，他是柯文哲的總幹事，李遠部長如何如何，他是柯文哲的總幹事，我就一直強化他是柯文哲總幹事這件事情，我有沒有錯？沒有！因為我是客觀性的描述，但是為什麼我就是故意要一直講這件事情、一直講這件事情……"],["余執行長佳璋：報告委員，我們沒有故意，只有在那個選舉期間報導過……"],["葉委員元之：如果今天李遠部長在那邊，他會覺得……"],["余執行長佳璋：其他新聞已經沒有再……"],["葉委員元之：等一下，我還沒有問問題，部長會覺得委員你是故意的，是不是？我現在已經當部長了，你不稱我新的職稱，你一直老是講我以前的事情幹嘛？就像你們TaiwanPlus一樣，人家都已經當選了，當選以後還一直講他是一個重刑犯、他是一個重刑犯。"],["余執行長佳璋：沒有，我們只有在選舉期間描述……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我就是看到你們現在還在講……"],["余執行長佳璋：那是那個時候發布的。"],["葉委員元之：他已經當選了，他的支持者在幫他慶功，新聞是他的支持者在海湖山莊幫他慶功，你還要去講他是一個重刑犯，要講多久你們才高興？我跟你講，你們還不認錯，沒有關係嘛！TaiwanPlus就是我們外交人員的豬隊友，因為我們臺美外交官這麼認真在拓展外交關係，結果TaiwanPlus的經營者覺得我就是客觀描述，有錯嗎？你就繼續這樣講啦！就這樣講啦！所以如果TaiwanPlus還是這樣成效不彰就算了，我們做很多事情是先講求不傷身體再講求效果，沒有效果也就罷了，錢又花了，還要當我們臺美關係的豬隊友，那你就繼續！你就繼續！","接下來請問部長，TaiwanPlus花了這麼多錢，但我認為錢花下去要有效果，本業要先做好再來想其他的，剛剛也有委員在關心，現在公視和華視要出3,000萬成立一個AI創新公司，對不對？部長，對吧？"],["李部長遠：它是一個新創科技公司，它要做的內容……"],["葉委員元之：請問公視法裡面哪一條說公視可以成立這樣的新公司？是哪一條？是公視法裡面的哪一條？"],["李部長遠：後來修法之後有這一條，原因是……"],["葉委員元之：你就講哪一條就好。"],["李部長遠：哪一條我背不出來。"],["葉委員元之：請公視董事長。"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員說明，在去年公視法修法之後，有特別在公視基金會的收入當中增列了一個投資他事業之收入。"],["葉委員元之：投資他事業也要業務需要進行投資啊，而且投資他事業與成立公司是兩回事，投資他事業也要因為業務需求投資吧？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們是公視基金會投資49%……"],["葉委員元之：請問這家3,000萬的公司，你們基於什麼業務需要成立？"],["胡董事長元輝：主要有兩個目的，第一個目的就是希望帶動公廣集團的數位轉型。第二個目的就是希望能夠推動增加華視新的營收。"],["葉委員元之：增加華視的營收？為什麼做這個可以增加營收？"],["胡董事長元輝：因為我們在傳統的電視產業……"],["葉委員元之：你為什麼認為做這件事情一定會賺錢？你的信心在哪裡？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們相信我們只要有企圖心、有適當的計畫，加上妥善的執行力……"],["葉委員元之：這是你在講嘛！部長，有一個事情我要跟你報告，你知不知道現在公視在進行這種會議的時候，全部要求董監事一定要簽保密協議，我們在立法院質詢都可以公開直播讓全民來看，為什麼公視花人民的納稅錢，在進行投資的時候要求董監事一定要簽保密協議，不能夠讓人家監督，為什麼？為什麼要搞黑箱作業？部長。"],["李部長遠：我覺得它從以前到現在都是要簽保密，並不是黑箱，是因為……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你認為公視和華視要成立創新投資公司應不應該要受到監督？應不應該？"],["李部長遠：當然是啊！"],["葉委員元之：請把開會的資料公開，好不好？保密協議也公開，我不知道這有什麼保密的必要，如果是人員的薪水、個資要保密，現在公視進行投資都要保密，這是為什麼？可不可以公開？"],["李部長遠：通過之後應該可以公開。"],["葉委員元之：不是，現在我們就要監督啦！部長，現在你知道大家擔心什麼事嗎？大家現在擔心的是3,000萬，第一年1,000萬轉給不知道哪一家公司，第二年1,000萬轉給不知道哪一家公司，第三年1,000萬不知道轉給哪一家公司，3,000萬就沒啦！然後別人賺得飽飽，卻完全不能夠監督！"],["李部長遠：委員，我跟您報告，這種事情不會發生在公視。"],["葉委員元之：那是你在講啊！如果說你講的都是事實的話，那TaiwanPlus當初設定app 100萬，為什麼現在變成20萬？你們永遠都是在滾動式調整！永遠都是時空環境變了，所以大家才要事前監督嘛！我現在就問可不可以公開？"],["李部長遠：如果這整個案子通過，因為現在……"],["葉委員元之：不是通過，現在就要監督，因為現在大家就是擔心，投資失敗誰負責？現在投3,000萬，整個轉出去，轉給下包、轉給自己人，誰負責？而且公視現在說要成立一家公司，大家根本看不出來有成立的必要，根本看不出來有成立的必要！"],["李部長遠：好，那我同意公開，好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：公開是不是？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["葉委員元之：把所有投資，比如說投資目的，然後未來的營運計畫、最後要怎麼做、怎麼賺錢，全部公開讓大家來看，否則的話，連這個東西都要搞黑箱，我覺得大家是不能接受的。部長，你同意吧？"],["李部長遠：不是，其實不是黑箱，因為也有滿多企業家寫信給我，希望我鼓勵這個事情，因為華視的虧損一直沒有辦法停止。"],["葉委員元之：不是，部長，華視的虧損是你要把本業弄好，華視的虧損不是你去成立一個AI創新公司，靠AI來賺錢，不然你後面那個董事長就去AI公司當董事長，不要來做公廣的董事長，公廣的主要目的，要賺錢是要把你的戲劇做好，要能夠回收。"],["李部長遠：華視已經做得比過去好了。"],["葉委員元之：所以是因為沒有AI，因此沒辦法賺錢嗎？你這個根屬問題根本搞錯了嘛！"],["李部長遠：它的虧損有慢慢降低，因為我自己來自華視，我覺得華視真的是一個悲劇的開始，所有員工都受害，經過努力了18年，慢慢、慢慢有一點點站起來了，所以請委員了解這個……"],["葉委員元之：部長，如果在本業上面需要精進，我們都支持，但現在的問題是說華視虧損，要靠成立一個AI投資公司來賺錢，而且是3,000萬，我聽起來就覺得很傻眼，我真的覺得非常傻眼！而且董事長據說是明年5月就卸任了，對吧？在卸任前半年進行這麼大的一個投資計畫，適合嗎？適合嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個計畫大概有一年多了啦！"],["葉委員元之：喔，一年多了。"],["李部長遠：這個計畫有一年多了，所以不是委員講的董事長要下來，因此趕快做，我覺得……"],["葉委員元之：因為最近才爆出來嘛！"],["李部長遠：沒有，委員……"],["葉委員元之：最近爆出來是為什麼？因為一直簽保密協議、黑箱，不能監督啊！"],["李部長遠：委員，你讓我講一句話，我所認識的胡董不是這樣的人啦！"],["葉委員元之：那是你認識的啊！那是你認識的胡董，跟大家認識的不見得是同一個人啊！"],["李部長遠：他是一個非常正直的人，所以，委員，您講的，我可以幫他打保證啦！"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為胡董快要下臺了，按照規定，半年前要遴選新的董事長，請問一下，現在有新的董事長人選嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒有，我剛才講過，我們怎麼可能決定董事長？您問的問題，我們正在進行中的就是跟行政院去函給立法院，要成立一個審議委員會。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！"],["李部長遠：按照政黨比例，所以光是這個你就知道……"],["葉委員元之：我也以為是這樣啊！可是你的好朋友余天在受訪的時候……"],["李部長遠：對不起，余天我不認識喔！"],["葉委員元之：你不認識？"],["李部長遠：余天我不認識喔！"],["葉委員元之：你們民進黨的立委余天……"],["李部長遠：我完全不認識。"],["葉委員元之：在受訪的時候就說，當時民進黨要把公廣或者是華視酬庸給他……"],["李部長遠：我跟他沒有講過一句話。"],["葉委員元之：所以我們就覺得，原來董事長可以用酬庸的，我才會問你這個問題，我也以為是公平、公正遴選啊！"],["李部長遠：非常公平啊！"],["葉委員元之：我怎麼知道原來可以黑箱交易、可以私下作業搓圓仔湯，我也是聽他接受專訪時說到，我才聽說的啊！"],["李部長遠：那是他說的啊！"],["葉委員元之：他說的啊！可是他也是你們民進黨的前立法委員。"],["李部長遠：不是我們啊！"],["主席：部長，你會後再把資料跟葉元之委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在準備要遴選，不能私相授受就對了？"],["李部長遠：現在已經進行到開始要各自找自己的審議委員。我跟委員報告，曾經有五百多天都成立不了。"],["主席：是不是請部長會後再來跟葉元之委員報告？"],["李部長遠：我寫個報告給你嗎？就是整個過程。"],["葉委員元之：好。"],["主席：請部長會後再跟葉元之委員報告。"],["李部長遠：董事長怎麼選……"],["葉委員元之：就是董事長怎麼遴選，不能夠要他退立委，就直接把位置給他了。"],["李部長遠：這個……"],["葉委員元之：你們是不是為了捍衛公廣的權益，應該要跟余天溝通一下？不然我跟你講，現在全臺灣一半以上以為公廣董事長是這樣來的。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝。","接下來我們有請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-9","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","張雅琳","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","賴惠員","王美惠"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府總\n預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中\n心、文化內容策進院、國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00006"}}},{"id":"157281","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752d3afa9a32f3ca84f7f9c834d54a4e02c40b19c4a6d232d91c72e5195eda2e44e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：（10時14分）主席、各位委員。有請主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：鄭委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好。花東地區發展條例是在民國100年在立法院三讀通過，所以花東基金從101年開始，到現在已經是第四期，所以已經超過十幾年了。在這樣的過程當中，明年度的預算是邁入第四期的第二年，我們必須檢討過去，然後才能針對明年度的預算，甚至往後的年度預算，尤其是計畫的核定來做一個檢視。花東地區發展條例總共只有十三條，扣除第一條的立法目的以及最後一條的公布施行，十三條扣掉兩條總共是十一條，在這十一條裡面，光是提到原住民的條文就有三條，第一個就是第五條關於原住民族群生活條件及環境之改善；還有第八條規定原住民族生存保障與文化保存，應依原住民族基本法規定擬定相關方案，推動原住民族人才培育，輔導原住民參與自然資源維護與經營管理；然後第十一條是健全原住民族部落之交通及公共運輸。所以我們要檢視過去已經完成的三期，針對原住民族的部分，因為花蓮、臺東是原住民人口最多的地方，所以這個部分是很重要的，包括原住民各族群都有，在這樣的情形之下我們要去檢視。因為整個方案都要提到國發會去審查，所以國發會就要基於指導的立場，看看花蓮、臺東怎麼樣能夠均衡，對原住民族的部分能夠更為加強，尤其是針對各鄉鎮，你們有提供各部會提出計畫的機會，那更是一個可以去強化的地方，所以請國發會同仁能夠加強檢視這個部分。","另外，有關無自來水地區的延管工程，這是本席在上一屆會期，因應0918地震特別協調經濟部，因為無自來水計畫的經費不足，所以就請他們提報到國發會，國發會在審查之後送到行政院也核定了，這是第一次由花東基金來支應及協助無自來水的計畫。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們支應了3億。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：針對這個部分，當時的經費配置是花東基金補助七千一百多萬，然後無自來水計畫是編列七千四百多萬，總共1億4,510萬，這是兩年的計畫，這個兩年計畫一直執行到今年。新的計畫就是從明年開始的無自來水地區供水改善計畫第五期，也已經在國發會審查之後報行政院，在11月18號也核定了。我之所以要把它提出來，也是要去檢視，因為現在是由花東基金投入去協助，針對這樣的協助，我們要去檢視，因為之前核定的時候是急著需要，所以沒有去檢視，但是現在核定了，我們也可以去檢視，檢視什麼呢？第一個就是無自來水地區供水改善計畫明年開始第五期，那過去四期在花蓮、臺東是多少經費？我們就講第三期好了，因為第四期有花東基金投入，所以我們就看第三期，第三期整個花東是多少經費的比例？在整個第三期裡面，花東的經費占多少比例？是多少錢？我們就要去計算第五期，這個花東基金3億應該要占多少的比例？我所謂多少的比例是這樣，我是擔心、我是不希望發生，但是我們要去協助、去督導，就是不要因為有花東基金就全部用花東基金投入在花東，我的意思是說，你還是要有原來第三期的那個比例，我們應該是針對那個成本，因為它有一個每戶成本的計算，多出來的部分由花東基金來投入。譬如說，每戶單位單價成本是100萬的話，超過的部分由花東基金投入，這樣才是有幫助，你們的同仁有了解我的意思嗎？這樣有了解？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們了解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分是不是能夠瞭解第三期投入在花東的部分到底是多少經費、它所占的比例是多少，然後我們來去檢視第五期應該要怎麼做，這樣好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們跟經濟部要資料，然後做一個報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，因為這樣才能夠真正去加碼！花東基金原來的用意就是要去加碼，而不是說有了這個部分就減少其他的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分要達到這樣的效益，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看另外一個部分關於檔案管理局，也謝謝檔案管理局，過去為了原住民的檔案我也曾經去過檔案管理局查資料。我曾經跟行政院要這個公文，因為當初我當處長的時候親自去參加行政院政務委員會議，而且那時候請原民會的主任委員去參加，為了姓名條例、羅馬拼音，我只是舉案例，不必看得那麼仔細，我只是舉案例！像這樣的一個檔案，到底怎麼樣的不能提供、怎麼樣的才能夠提供？這個部分因為各部會的意見不太一致，有的說資料不公開、不能公開還是怎麼樣！像這個許歷農的老檔案都可以調的出來，所以這個部分怎麼樣的才能夠、怎麼樣的不行？關於一般函稿不是機密的，譬如說，我當副主委的時候到底我有沒有蓋章？類似像這樣要去查的時候，又說不行、不符合資訊公開法。所以這個部分是不是可以後續提供書面資料？還是口頭再跟我講好了，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，再跟委員報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員，主委請回座。","下一位質詢請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-16","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","陳超明","呂玉玲","葉元之","蔡易餘"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院歲入預算第5款第1項第2目暨國家發展委員會及所\n屬單位預算部分；二、審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主\n管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310401_00003"}}},{"id":"157280","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157280","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a63752ca015a48acd7e3c9ed5a0382e2f733d940b19c4a6d232d9103e0b134b6616cf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:03:37 - 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有請我們警政署署長麻煩警政署署長 署長法務部部長 部長 麻煩部長那個司法院"},{"start":29.991,"end":31.592,"text":"議長請教幾個問題周杰倫的演唱會兩排要舉行我看下週也開放要取票先前在售票的期間黃牛這個現象非常的猖獗"},{"start":55.731,"end":70.501,"text":"這陣子棒球十二強很熱部分的賽事我們也看到很多機師隊友你們也很清楚啦隊友環保的一個足跡那署長之前在答詢的時候說你警政署全力去出擊那我想請教這陣子的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":72.967,"end":97.432,"text":"去準國安法委員報告上次委員早上質詢說你說是不是下午會成交結果下午就抓到用AI的這種模式去買票的有兩個集團所以我們都抓到了抓到之後我們就給他公佈這個情形那現在就是說這個因為他這個演唱會是屬於文創華裡面的嘛"},{"start":98.752,"end":114.878,"text":"那真單純的只有買賣這個只有那些買來做販賣販賣票可以划到50倍了所以這件阿另外是這個是用那個AI程式的這個用文創法用違反這個來做移送可以划5000億萬啦"},{"start":117.739,"end":120.04,"text":"我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!"},{"start":138.286,"end":155.038,"text":"那地政署那如果說違反整個文化創意產業發展法的這個黃牛條款的部分那本來都會去做這個起訴但現在碰到一個問題啊我也知道說我們警察警政機關跟我們法務部這個地方啊機場檢察官大家都很辛苦可是呢 廳長現在有一個問題來了就是說現在這個搭授的行為啊"},{"start":160.853,"end":173.658,"text":"我買兩張周杰倫的門票我買五千塊我不是買門票我就跟他說我送你一支麥克風我賣麥克風我賣我的簽名賣我的簽名警察局一定會把我扔下來說你給我臉瘋了結果我也被起訴結果到我們法院"},{"start":187.981,"end":194.063,"text":"無罪有說理的判決其實我都沒有意見那這個確實也很麻煩有時候你說一張有時候你說兩張它確實不是一個集團式那像這種啊這種規避的法律的一個脫法的一個行為啊"},{"start":205.066,"end":216.932,"text":"很清楚我就是要賣這個黃牛票可是我就跟你說我在賣我莊惠熊的簽名我是在賣咖啡然後送捉捷倫的門票我咖啡是五千捉捷倫的門票殺霸的餓這個法案這樣的判這個判決以後你讓我們這個警察機關跟我們法務部檢察官這樣子大家忙了半天你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":232.058,"end":243.022,"text":"這個脫法行為有這個實務上的見解我沒有特別的意見不過事實上我們當然法官判就當然沒有意見我的意思就是說他判決還是有說理那個說理還講得通我的意思說怎麼樣來解決總要有一個指引出來"},{"start":251.304,"end":265.096,"text":"這個我們回去會做進一步的研議好不好不然我們的基層警察大家忙得要死那檢察官也就認為說你這個壞蛋本來本身你就是在賣這個黃牛票那可就到法院這個我認為沒有一個指引出來前面兩個部分警察也好檢察官也好都坐北崗"},{"start":276.738,"end":291.652,"text":"你認不認同這樣的看法我認同委員的看法這個不要開玩笑啦好不好另外我繼續要來請教的就是說我們司法院這個地方那個警政署警政署也是還有你們的"},{"start":293.113,"end":311.909,"text":"我一直很關心我們這個科技偵查的部分我們警政署今年在也舉辦了全國科技偵查的一個競賽這個都已經舉辦了這個是好事透過競賽跟這個實戰的一個演練才可以去發揮整個的一個效能但我比較關心的就是說科偵法的一個執法今年7月份"},{"start":312.89,"end":338.281,"text":"特別刑事訴訟法的特殊強制處分的一個專章裡面在條案指出來就是說按照該專章的調查的一個方式取得的資料跟保存還有管理、銷毀、呈報、通知、救濟、監督跟其他相關的一個事項的辦理是司法院會同行政院來制定那可是在上週那個刑事訴訟法的特殊處分的執行辦法裡面我看到司法院做了很多的一個功課"},{"start":339.221,"end":353.001,"text":"多到19個條文以及研討會至少三次的諮詢會議這個要大大的去做一個肯定這個真的是要大大做一個肯定可是我想請教司法院的就是說這一次你們的執行辦法的主軸到底是什麼"},{"start":354.933,"end":375.71,"text":"我們執行辦法除了依照153之10第5項的授權之外我們有重要的就是關於委員會所關心的資料的保存管理跟銷毀怎樣防避這部分我們做了很大的努力包括事中的陳報的警察是事中陳報部分我們都有做相當的約制我簡單的講我比較關切的就是說我們幾乎"},{"start":381.054,"end":409.62,"text":"這個部長也很清楚啊這個法務部這個地方都非常辛苦我們是很擔心的就是說你不管是對人民侵害是多小的那這個部分沒有授權到最後都會變爛用那我的建議就是說與其你們這個辦法司法院跟行政院這個地方應該就是法務部嘛不中就是說我們要公佈這個法律的時候你不如在整個研討會的過程裡面把這一些學者專家不同的意見做一件全部都給淡淡出來"},{"start":410.84,"end":429.389,"text":"你不要這樣耍了公報耍然後媒體或者學者再去寫一篇他們所有的那種文章的渲染力啊或者說團體啊 你們建清也好你搞不好你搞不好大家再來批評一下之後這個逼你 你在這裡開水到水到轉泡齁"},{"start":431.072,"end":438.2,"text":"更靠攏贏。」所以我建議這個整個以後這個整個你們在作業的方式裡面可以再細緻一點不同意見我們幹嘛怕人家知道本來在實務上在做研討的時候正反意見本來都會有你會集合那麼多學者的專家來就是要聽他們的意見"},{"start":451.886,"end":461.69,"text":"他們講出來他也不怕人家外界知道啊那有些見解都是質地有聲啊只是說你在我們這個行政部門裡面你到底現在去實施會不會有那個能量的問題啊所以我建議喔我這個我真的大膽給你建議這個真的是在過程裡面啊就把那一些不同意見全部就把它做一個揭露好不好"},{"start":474.056,"end":488.462,"text":"我還不知道部長你的看法是什麼贊同委員的意見那我想我們這個法案就是要廣大意見或是採周延謝謝委員的指教是 你看我們訂這些執法 訂這些執引我們像在我們10月22號23號特殊相處處分的學術交流會裡面 研討會裡面全部都已經有了啊有了以後你就紅哉啊像現在我們在討論你也要不要就很奇怪那學術研討的這個東西哪有什麼不可告人的地方"},{"start":503.388,"end":527.543,"text":"那都是專家學者的見解啊 喔 廷長好不好 這個應該做得到吧這個我們學術委員會我們有對外公佈的 那資料也有提供 有公開版的可以是啦 我的意思是說 像這一些喔 不要等到我們的辦法出來以後啊這樣我們批評了之後 說我先撒撒出來 這樣就不好 好不好現在我們的執法已經在預告程序了 預告程序應該大家都看得到 可以給我們一些指教跟批評"},{"start":528.41,"end":542.856,"text":"那另外我要來就教了我可能要請這個我看今天來的各項內政部警政署署發部還有我們國家通訊傳播委員會署長也有來還有我們行政院打詐指揮中心監管會也請多一些上來一下幾個問題要就教"},{"start":558.291,"end":587.106,"text":"我想這一次部長我要請教法務部部長柏丁各個部門上來的我請你們也特別注意聽我們現在柯真法有一個很重要的一個功能就是打詐嘛柏丁我們這個打詐從議程的題目可以看得出來問題出在什麼地方你看現在的詐騙犯罪越來越可怕了把青少年跟外籍移工在很多不知情的情況之下全部都捲出來了捲進來了變成犯罪的加害者或者是一個幫助犯我要來讓你們看一下成效"},{"start":588.166,"end":592.129,"text":"各單位也看一下108年42億109年42億111年56億111年73億112年88億今年113年1到10月份就已經274億我要就教各位的就是說我們都經歷過疫情的疫情疫情有所謂的高峰"},{"start":618.917,"end":639.744,"text":"不然警政署署長署長署長來來署長那疫情有高峰啊你以為我們這個打詐那個高峰什麼時候會到達你看到這個數字你會不會覺得很可怕現在看起來現在是七個月到八個月最高峰你覺得七個月到八個月是高峰因為八個月到一百三十幾個月"},{"start":644.146,"end":653.155,"text":"你現在到15歲的時候已經274億了11月我看也快結束了嘛11跟12以現在你目前掌握11月份的部分你認為那也還沒降下來啊"},{"start":662.578,"end":664.799,"text":"10月份是120票,7月份是137票,137票到120票"},{"start":672.389,"end":689.559,"text":"這個是很可怕的一個數字真的是很可怕的數字啦這個其實為什麼這麼多單位要上來內政部負責叫做試詐稍微叫做讓老百姓知道什麼叫做詐騙通傳會負責代表的就是說電信的防詐通傳會有來了齁你們叫做防詐嘛對不對齁然後呢通傳會你們叫賭詐對然後呢速發部"},{"start":700.888,"end":702.29,"text":"司法部您就防詐對吧然後金管會您就主詐一堆的我也不知道這樣"},{"start":709.969,"end":734.816,"text":"到底怎麼樣去做一個分工法務部當然叫做打詐他確實對 叫做懲詐也都有一定的功效我要說的就是說這到底安然還是算對的站在警察的立場站在金融檢察官的立場就我很努力啊你有犯罪我就破案啊對 這對可是站在整體國家的立場"},{"start":737.392,"end":765.103,"text":"我們的警察機關他有盡責了努力在做檢察官案子送過來我努力偵辦也起訴了法院的部分當然判決以後人少掉一半人數我是都還沒有秀出來人數少掉了一半但是我們各單位站在整個國家的立場來看的話為什麼會讓老百姓批評說越打越仗這個我們要檢討"},{"start":766.781,"end":778.069,"text":"這個我們確實要檢討所以我才在問說高峰會在什麼地方疫情都有高峰會降下來你不可以打詐說我們都是高峰高峰高峰一直打一直上去一直上去我如果是警政署長我會認為我很努力啊"},{"start":783.243,"end":797.356,"text":"我如果檢察官我會認為我很努力啊我摘尖發福啊我維護這個社會的治安啊把壞蛋全部都抓起來啊可是站在整個國家的立場這個國家生病了怎麼了怎麼一直上去金額一直這樣累積這個接下來就可能不是警政署跟法務部的問題囉檢察官的問題囉"},{"start":805.632,"end":829.606,"text":"救我們其他機關的問題?你說通傳會你們有沒有問題?訴發部你們這裡有沒有問題?其他你們這些協助整個國家整體扮演著不同角色的所以我是覺得這個不要讓我們的檢察官或者警察大家忙翻了以後然後這個都還降不下來你說這個是不是成績部長?"},{"start":830.626,"end":834.67,"text":"我也認為這個偵破對警察來講他們認為我是成績啊你說譬如說我們基層在棄毒吧對不對齁抓到了好多毒品啊我又要阻絕在境外全部都破貨可是如果那個量每一年一直增加一直增加那也很可怕怎麼樣去防堵就可能就在前面了這個"},{"start":854.093,"end":868.991,"text":"來,我們行政院今天去你們的防詐中心的指揮官有來嗎?來,我要聽你,你有什麼選擇沒有來?這大家都很緊張在幫你倒卡手喔,你做指揮官的人你會看完柯委員報告,這個詐騙它是一個產業鏈"},{"start":872.113,"end":881.122,"text":"他不是一個單一的、個別的現象所以我們現在在做的就是說把這個產業鏈阻斷問題是有阻沒斷跟委員報告我們現在那個打詐四法通過之後11月底"},{"start":887.688,"end":903.703,"text":"我們現在有11個執法要上路那上路以後呢在訴發部這邊他們會針對四大平台然後把前端的詐欺有關的資訊把它堵住那堵住之後我們後面民眾我們要降低他接觸詐騙訊息的這樣的一個機率"},{"start":906.525,"end":933.088,"text":"那再透過我們後端我們在查緝的部分把這個有關犯罪集團的部分把他查緝到案所以我們是從上中下游分別下手這我都可以說這我都很會說我如果是警政署長或是我刑事警察局長我會跟你說我就性質這麼好我都會破案我如果法務部長說我下面的檢察官大家都這麼拚命"},{"start":934.67,"end":942.476,"text":"列在我的起訴、加重求情我老司法院會對法官說那個來的案件我們就把它判下去我們就把它重判好三個機關都這樣講只是站在老百姓的立場說你這是在做什麼你整個責政團隊在幹什麼已經警政署這個地方他負到責任了法務部他負到責任了司法院他負到責任了那其他該誰的"},{"start":964.858,"end":974.352,"text":"我們就一個一個把它拆開你一個執政團隊是好多輪子好多機器大家共同來運轉所以你講這個 我知道你要講這個我告訴你這幾年都在討論這個問題"},{"start":981.581,"end":1003.472,"text":"都在討論這個問題喔政府就是整個來看喔我們要加強的空間非常非常大喔我為什麼前面談課真法再來給你秀出這個數字是要告訴你大家都很努力大家都人仰馬翻數字也都很漂亮但是這個很漂亮的數字的背後就要告訴我們我們的政府機關努力還不夠"},{"start":1007,"end":1035.146,"text":"報告委員我們會持續我們現在有列管指標那在今年底之前行政院會公布新的打詐綱領2.0那麼把這個指標全部列出來之後行政院會對各部會目前手上所有的工具跟它執行的結果我們會去做列管所以這個部分跟委員報告我們明年開始我們在這個現在的數字呈現上我們有信心它會下降你認為下個月就會下降"},{"start":1036.557,"end":1059.728,"text":"跟委員報告我們11月底公布執法有工具之後我們從下個月到明年這段期間我們是下降期很好部長、署長工具都給你了工具都給你了我期待十月份就已經是高峰了我看到下個月的時候或者下下個月這個議題在我們司法法制委員會一定是大家會關注的一個議題嘛"},{"start":1061.109,"end":1072.277,"text":"我們很期待現在是高峰接下來慢慢緩降因為資訊都是公開透明的嘛這個確實啦其他的部會齁您各有所思的人你們要好好去想一想每一個部門雖然人多啦建制局打擊犯罪、展覽館打擊犯罪"},{"start":1082.833,"end":1099.39,"text":"司法院、我們的法院、依法審判其他的事情齁你們這裡的其他在發揮很大的功能該給你們的法律也給你們的該給的武器也給的該給的預算我們一毛錢都沒少要加油好不好好謝謝請回好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時3分）謝謝主席，有請警政署署長。"],["主席：麻煩警政署署長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法務部部長。"],["主席：法務部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有司法院李廳長，李廳長有來嗎？"],["主席：李廳長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：署長，請教你幾個問題。周杰倫的演唱會將在兩個禮拜後舉行，我看下週也要開放取票，先前在售票期間，黃牛的現象非常猖獗。這陣子棒球12強很熱，我們看到部分賽事其實都有……你們也很清楚，都有黃牛的足跡。署長之前在答詢的時候說，警政署會全力出擊，所以我想請教，這陣子的情況怎麼樣？"],["張署長榮興：我跟委員報告，上次委員早上質詢的時候，你說是不是下午會成交？結果下午就抓到用AI的模式去買票的兩個集團，所以我們都抓到了。抓到之後，我們就公布了這個情形，現在這個演唱會是屬於文創法裡面的，單純只有買賣的……販賣黃牛票的可以罰到50倍，至於本件用AI程式的就是用違反文創法去移送，可以罰到五千多萬，全國總共就取締了八、九十件，現在黃牛的這種狀況看起來好像有遏止了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那是好事，但我請這麼多人上來就是想就教，你們破獲以後一定會移送地檢署，地檢署如果違反整個文化創意產業發展法黃牛條款的部分，全部都可以據以起訴。但是現在碰到了一個問題，我也知道警察、警政機關跟法務部的基層檢察官大家都很辛苦，可是廳長，現在有個問題來了，現在這種搭售的行為，我買了兩張周杰倫的門票，然後要賣5,000元，但我也不寫賣門票，而是說我在賣麥克風、我在賣我的簽名。對此，警察局一定是一巴掌打下去，覺得那是在練肖話，檢察官也會起訴，結果到了法院卻無罪。有說理的判決其實我都沒有意見，但這個確實也很麻煩，有時候你說1張，有時候你說2張，它確實不是集團式的，像這種規避法律的脫法行為，很清楚我就是要賣黃牛票，可是我卻說我要賣的是我莊瑞雄的簽名，我是在賣咖啡，然後送周杰倫的門票。我咖啡賣5,000元，周杰倫的門票算300元就好，法院這樣判決以後，卻讓警察機關跟法務部檢察官大家忙了半天，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["李廳長釱任：這個脫法行為有實務上的見解，我沒有特別的意見，不過事實上是可以再……"],["莊委員瑞雄：法官這樣判我當然沒有意見，判決還是說有理，那個說理還講得通，但我的意思是要怎麼來解決，總要有個指引出來啊！"],["李廳長釱任：我們回去會進一步地研議。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然你讓基層警察忙得要死，檢察官也認為這個壞蛋本身就是在賣這個黃牛票，可是到法院……這個我認為沒有一個指引出來，前面兩個部分，不管是警察也好，檢察官也好，都是在做白工，你認不認同這樣的看法？"],["李廳長釱任：我認同委員的看法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個不要開玩笑，好不好？"],["李廳長釱任：是，好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外，我繼續要請教司法院，我一直很關心科技偵查的部分，警政署今年舉辦了全國科技偵查的競賽，這些都已經舉辦了，而且也都是好事，透過競賽跟實戰的演練才可以發揮整個效能，但我比較關心的是，有關科偵法的執法，今年7月通過刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分的專章，條文中指出按照該專章調查的方式取得的資料跟保存，還有管理、銷燬、陳報、通知、救濟、監督跟其他相關事項的辦理，是司法院會同行政院制定的，上週刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分的執行辦法，我看到司法院做了很多功課，多到有19個條文以及研討會、至少3次的諮詢會議，這個真的要大大地給予肯定，可是我想請教司法院的是，這次你們執行辦法的主軸到底是什麼？"],["李廳長釱任：我們的執行辦法除了依照第一百五十三條之十第五項的授權之外，有個重要的就是剛剛委員所關心的，資料的保存、管理跟銷燬，對於怎樣防弊這部分，我們做了很大的努力，包括警察事中陳報的部分，我們都有做相當地約制。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我簡單地講，我比較關切的，部長也很清楚，法務部在這個地方都非常辛苦，我們是很擔心，不管對人民的侵害是多小，這個部分沒有授權，到最後都會被濫用。我的建議是與其你們這個辦法……司法院跟行政院對這個部分，應該就是法務部嘛！部長，我們要公布這部法律時，不如在整個研討會的過程裡面，把這一些學者專家不同的意見一次全部都丟出來，不要一公布完之後，媒體或者學者再去寫一篇評論，他們所有文章的渲染力或者說團體，像劍青也好，到最後大家對此又提出批評，比你在這裡解釋得天花亂墜還更有用。我建議以後你們整個作業的方式可以再細緻一點，有不同意見幹嘛怕人家知道呢？本來實務上在做研討的時候都會有正反意見，你會集合那麼多學者專家來，就是要聽他們的意見，他們講出來，他也不怕外界知道，有些見解都是擲地有聲啊！只是在行政部門裡面，到底現在去實施會不會有那個能量的問題？所以我真的大膽跟你們建議，這個真的在過程裡面，就把那一些不同意見全部都揭露，好不好？我不知道部長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：贊同委員的意見。我想這部法案就是要廣納意見才周延，謝謝委員指教。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是！你看我們在訂這些子法、訂這些指引，像10月22號、23號特殊強制處分的學術交流會、研討會裡面全部都已經有了，有了以後你就讓大家知道，甚至是我向你們要資料時，你們也遮遮掩掩的，就很奇怪，學術研討的東西哪有什麼不可告人的地方，那個都是專家學者的見解啊！廳長好不好？這個應該做得到吧？"],["李廳長釱任：學術研討會我們有對外公布的，資料也有提供，有公開版的可以提供。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！我意思是說，像這一些不要等到我們的辦法出來以後，被人家批評了，才趕快把資料拿出來，這樣就不好了，好不好？"],["李廳長釱任：現在我們的子法已經在預告程序了，應該大家都看得到，再給我們一些指教跟批評。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好。另外，我看今天出席的有誰？內政部警政署也有來，數發部、國家通訊傳播委員會處長、行政院打詐指揮中心、金管會請都一起上來，有幾個問題要就教。我要請教法務部部長，各個部門上臺來的，我請你們也特別注意聽，現在科偵法有一個很重要的功能就是打詐。部長，從議程的題目可以看得出來問題出在什麼地方，你看現在的詐騙犯罪越來越可怕，把青少年跟外籍移工在很多不知情的情況之下，全部都捲進來了，變成犯罪的加害者或者是幫助犯，我來讓你們看一下成效。部長，你來看這份統計，你很清楚嘛！各單位也看一下，108年42億、109年42億、110年56億、111年73億、112年88億，今年（113年）1月到10月份就已經274億。我要就教各位的就是我們都經歷過疫情，疫情有所謂的高峰。警政署署長，疫情有高峰，你認為打詐的高峰什麼時候會到達？你看到這個數字，你會不會覺得很可怕？"],["張署長榮興：以目前看起來，今年7月份到8月份是最高峰。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你覺得7月到8月是高峰？"],["張署長榮興：對，因為8月到達一百三十幾億。"],["莊委員瑞雄：8月到一百三十幾億？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你看現在到10月的時候已經到274億，11月也快結束了，以目前你掌握11月份的部分，你認為？"],["張署長榮興：10月份是118億，11月份到現在還沒有統計出來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那也還沒降下來啊？"],["張署長榮興：沒有啦！10月份差不多120億，8月份是137億，從137億降到120億。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這真的是很可怕的數字。"],["張署長榮興：對、對！"],["莊委員瑞雄：為什麼叫這麼多單位上來？內政部負責的叫作識詐，讓老百姓知道什麼叫詐騙；通傳會負責的是電信的堵詐，通傳會有來啦！你們叫作堵詐；數發部就是防詐，對不對？金管會叫作阻詐，一大堆啦！我也不知道到底是如何分工，法務部當然叫作打詐，它確實……"],["鄭部長銘謙：懲詐。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，叫懲詐，也都有一定的功效。這到底怎麼樣才算是對的？站在警察的立場，站在金融檢察官的立場，我很努力啊！你有犯罪，我就破案啊！對，這對。可是站在整體國家的立場，警察機關有盡責，努力在做；檢察官案子送過來，我努力偵辦，也起訴了；法院的部分，當然判決以後人少掉一半，我剛才沒有秀出來人數少掉了一半，但是各單位站在整個國家的立場來看的話，為什麼會讓老百姓批評為越打越詐？我們確實要檢討，所以我才在問高峰會在什麼地方，疫情的高峰都會降下來，你不能說我們打詐都是高峰、高峰、高峰，一直打一直上去。如果我是警政署長，我會認為我很努力啊！如果我是檢察官，我會認為我很努力啊！我摘奸發伏、維護社會的治安，把壞蛋全部都抓起來啊！可是站在整個國家的立場，這個國家生病了，怎麼了？怎麼會一直上去，金額一直這樣累積？接下來就可能不是警政署跟法務部、檢察官的問題，而是其他機關的問題，你說通傳會沒有問題嗎？數發部，你們沒有問題嗎？其他這些協助國家整體扮演著不同角色的單位，我是覺得不要讓我們的檢察官或者警察大家忙翻了以後，這個還降不下來，部長，你說這個是不是成績？我也認為這個偵破，對警察來講，他們認為是成績，像是基層在緝毒對不對？抓到了好多毒品，當入境時，就把你阻絕在境外，全部都破獲，可是如果那個量每一年一直增加、一直增加，那也很可怕，如何去防堵，可能就是在前端了。","今天行政院防詐中心的指揮官有來，我要來聽你有什麼良策嗎？大家都很認真在幫忙，身為指揮官的人，你的看法呢？"],["馬次長士元：委員好。跟委員報告，詐騙是一個產業鏈，它不是單一、個別的現象。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我也知道。"],["馬次長士元：所以我們現在在做的，就是把這個產業鏈阻斷，所以從……"],["莊委員瑞雄：問題是有阻沒斷啊？"],["馬次長士元：我們現在打詐四法通過之後，在11月底，我們有11個子法要上路，上路以後，在數發部這邊會針對四大平臺，把前端跟詐欺有關的資訊堵住，那堵住之後，我們要降低民眾接觸詐騙訊息的機率，再透過我們後端在查緝的部分，把有關犯罪集團的部分查緝到案，所以我們是從上、中、下游分別下手。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個我都很會講，如果我是警政署長或刑事警察局長，我會跟你說我的成績這麼好，我都破案了；如果我是法務部長，我會說下面的檢察官大家都這麼拚命，抓到了就起訴，加重求刑；如果我是司法院下面的法官，我會說送來的案件，我們就給他判下去，給他重判。好，三個機關都這樣講，可是站在老百姓的立場說：你們這是在做什麼？整個執政團隊在幹什麼？這部分警政署負到責任了，法務部負到責任了，司法院負到責任了，其他歸誰的？我們就一個一個把它拆開，一個執政團隊是好多輪子、好多機器，大家共同來運轉，我知道你要說這些，可是我要跟你說的是，這幾年都在討論這個問題，政府就是整個來看，我們要加強的空間非常非常大，我為什麼前面談科偵法，再來跟你秀出這個數字，是要告訴你，大家都很努力、大家都人仰馬翻，數字也都很漂亮，但是這個很漂亮的數字背後就是要告訴我們，我們的政府機關努力還不夠。"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們會持續，我們現在有列管指標，在今年底之前，行政院會公布新的打詐綱領2.0，我們把這個指標全部列出來之後，行政院會對各部會目前手上所有的工具跟執行結果去做列管，所以這個部分跟委員報告，明年開始，我們在現在的數字呈現上，我們有信心它會下降。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你認為下個月就會下降？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們11月底公布子法，有工具之後，我們從下個月到明年這段期間是下降期。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，很好，部長、署長，工具都給你們了，10月份就已經是高峰了，我看到下個月或者下下個月時，這個議題在我們司法及法制委員會一定是大家會關注的議題嘛！現在是高峰，我們很期待接下來慢慢緩降，因為資訊都是公開透明的，這個確實啦，其他的部會、各有所思的人，你們要好好去想一想，每一個部門「隨人認路」，警察局打擊犯罪、檢察官打擊犯罪，司法院、法院依法審判，其他的事情，你們這些其他的部門發揮很大的功能，該給你們的法律也給你們了、該給的武器也給了、該給的預算，我們一毛錢都沒少，要加油好不好？好，謝謝，請回。"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝莊委員。我們先作會議程序預告：稍後在鍾委員佳濱詢答完畢後，休息5分鐘。","我們接下來請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},{"id":"157279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157279","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637525c1a34f806dc26d236af624ec870174940b19c4a6d232d9125a559157b58088d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:10:58 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但是因為這種東西還是屬於可以 是不是屬於會比較安全的嗎但是因為會不會說我們現在其實還是沒有很大的征服就是說是不是因為民眾的成本增加所以大家讓這種裝置率會比較低呢會不會有是不是因為這個樣子所以讓這個政策推動不容易因為這個如果政策沒有推動好是不是會影響到整個公共的安全呢"},{"start":247.244,"end":250.653,"text":"這個基本費主要跟他的維修或者是換線都有關係"},{"start":252.639,"end":257.921,"text":"因為我看一下他這個你們退伍會轉投資這15間的瓦斯公司其實他們的稅後盈餘有總共大概高達41億元其實比台電還會賺錢所以既然你們轉投資這個有那麼高的盈餘是不是請退伍會你要回去研議一下跟怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論那瓦斯公司可以配合政策的時候應該可以優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用讓這一個"},{"start":280.151,"end":284.721,"text":"政策可以更大幅的讓大家都可以去裝置率變高"},{"start":287.884,"end":315.401,"text":"報告委員這個部分由我來跟您回答事實上我們雖然推廣率只有60%還有成長的空間因為維電化瓦斯其實它使用上是安全因為它有自動遮斷的功能但是我們的主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率它有非常非常嚴格的規範不能由我們15家因為全台灣有20幾家瓦斯公司如果我們在做這個事情的話會不敷成本"},{"start":316.815,"end":331.372,"text":"為電腦表從早期開始設立的時候大概一個成本2300塊到2500塊而且這個部分是不收費的然後成長到兩年前的時候他的成本已經到3500塊了那這部分基本費一直沒有調漲"},{"start":332.293,"end":349.462,"text":"那當初主管機關設計這個基本費的時候他包含了換表維修還有後續表外管的維修換製等等都算在這個裡面的所以說使用上雖然普及率逐漸的提高那我們這個我們還要再加強宣導"},{"start":350.262,"end":376.827,"text":"那有些鄉下地方的老人家他可能是認為說我機械表機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊比較便宜一點事實上是有差異性的這個我們要宣導機械表的精準率只有3%可以正負3%微電表微電腦表是1%所以這方面使用起來是有差異的但是我們會來持續宣導這個加強也會跟我們的主管機關持續溝通請主管機關"},{"start":379.508,"end":379.628,"text":"主委"},{"start":398.129,"end":411.242,"text":"根據本席研究預算發現111年還有112年裡面編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高那請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢覺得是退出劑"},{"start":418.672,"end":447.706,"text":"退出給予跟發放的人數有關係因為如果人數增加我們的退出給予就會比較高那人數少他退出給予就會比較少所以跟人數有關係那當時你們用這個是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢是不是動用第一預備金呢如果是動用預備金的話是不是檢討是不是相關不合常規的動資的方式呢有沒有什麼改善的方法呢因應的措施呢"},{"start":448.896,"end":476.227,"text":"委員好 我是退出警部處的處長跟委員報告那感謝委員的關切那有關於這個去年近兩年人數都有增加那我們編列的預算主要是依照國防部他會提供這個需求以及我們這個在這個我們既定的這個支領退休部分的人數來編列"},{"start":478.693,"end":479.014,"text":"今年不會申請預備金"},{"start":483.959,"end":511.118,"text":"所以是不會超時這樣就對因為我這樣就是要提醒說按照中央各主管機關編列114年度的概算來應該要注意的是像有第5點的規定就是說各機關依照法律的義務所必須重大的支出應該逐項的檢討匡列重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理那退除役官兵退休給複資人事費法律義務的支出要核實的編列"},{"start":512.239,"end":521.728,"text":"那可以做到嗎?因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休的給付的人事費每年都是大概超過700億元而且逐年的在增加那這樣國庫的財務是真的負擔是蠻重的但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休的權益與軍職人員的退府的"},{"start":530.836,"end":549.122,"text":"的基金採取的永續所以請退伍會要好好的掌握這些官兵離退的情況而且做好因應的措施因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後的他眷屬的生活那可以做到嗎對我們會跟國防部密切的聯繫密切的配合精算人數然後稀釋編列好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時11分）謝謝主席，請嚴主委。"],["主席：有請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：召委好。"],["林委員憶君：主委好。你知道退輔會以安置基金投資持股超過20%的公司有幾間嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：瓦斯公司15間。"],["林委員憶君：主委，你知道我們花東地區民眾其實現在想要用天然氣的瓦斯，因為大部分都是叫瓦斯桶還有電熱水器，目前花蓮縣傳統的瓦斯桶，大部分一桶大概是675元，重點是如果遇到沒有電梯的公寓，常常還要被加價，這樣瓦斯公司才會願意搬瓦斯上樓。所以我想問一下，退輔會所屬轉投資的事業中，擁有15間天然氣的事業公司、持股高達一定的程度，但為何不願意會合其他的相關部會，請你們的轉投資公司為花東地區設置、架設天然氣的管線，讓花東居民都可以享用跟臺灣其他地區相同的生活品質、降低瓦斯費用的負擔，請問過去有沒有研議過這個問題呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：過去有做過，我請我們處長跟你詳細說明。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長楊長政。我跟委員報告，其實早年我們投資的欣隆公司，他們跟經濟部申請在宜蘭地區投資，事實上已經去佈管了，一佈管就碰到民意非常非常大的抗爭，所以他們退場了，把投資當作認列損失來退場，目前只有一個不是我們輔導會的欣欣天然氣公司，它在宜蘭地區有用槽運的方式去經營當地的工業用戶，目前為止這個樣子。"],["林委員憶君：所以花蓮地區是還沒有嘛！對不對？"],["楊處長長政：對，花東地區都還沒有。"],["林委員憶君：好，可不可以退輔會回去跟其他部門研究一下臺灣東部地區架設天然氣的可行性評估，來解決我們花蓮地區只能使用桶裝瓦斯的生活需求，可不可以3個月給一個書面報告評估呢？"],["楊處長長政：好，是，沒問題。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。接下來我要問一下微電腦瓦斯表，主委你知道嗎？現在全臺灣有350萬的天然氣用戶，依照每年年限，每年需要更換的數量不同，在退輔會轉投資的15間瓦斯公司裡面，供給天然氣給163萬戶的民眾使用，到現在9月底，平均有59.43%，裝置微電腦瓦斯表不到6成，甚至更低，然後欣嘉與欣屏分別只有裝24%還有25%，根據本席了解，一旦裝了這個，每個月民眾都要多負擔40塊到340塊的費用，但瓦斯是屬於公用的事業，硬體的設備成本要這樣讓民眾分擔，會不會讓這個執行不容易呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員，微電腦的瓦斯表從102年只有7.12%，提升到今年113年9月已經到62.82%了，所以它也是廣受大眾願意接受，而且……"],["林委員憶君：因為這種東西屬於比較安全的，我們現在其實還是沒有很大的增幅，是不是因為民眾的成本增加，所以裝置率會比較低呢？是不是因為這個樣子，所以讓這個政策推動不容易？如果這個政策沒有推動好，是不是會影響到整個公共安全呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：基本費主要跟維修或者換線都有關係。"],["林委員憶君：因為我看一下退輔會轉投資的這15間瓦斯公司，稅後盈餘總共高達41億元，其實比台電還會賺錢。既然你們轉投資有那麼高的盈餘，請退輔會回去研議一下，怎麼樣跟這些轉投資公司討論，讓瓦斯公司可以配合政策，應該優惠每個民眾支付所屬的基本費用，讓大家的裝置率可以大幅變高。"],["楊處長長政：這個部分由我來跟您回答。事實上，雖然推廣率只有百分之六十，還有成長的空間，而微電腦瓦斯的使用上是安全的，因為它有自動遮斷的功能。但是主管機關能源署對於各瓦斯公司的裝置率有非常嚴格的規範，不能由我們15家……因為全臺灣有二十幾家瓦斯公司，如果由我們來做這個事情的話，會不敷成本。微電腦表從早期開始設立的時候，一個成本大概2,300塊到2,500塊，而且這個部分是不收費的，兩年前它的成本已經成長到3,500塊了。這部分基本費一直沒有調漲，當初主管機關設計基本費的時候，包含了換表、維修，還有後續表外管的維修、換置等等都算在這個裡面，使用上雖然普及率逐漸提高，但我們還要再加強宣導。有些鄉下地方的老人家可能認為，機械表使用起來一個月只要繳60塊，比較便宜一點，事實上是有差異性的，這個我們要宣導，機械表的精準率正負可以有百分之三，微電腦表是百分之一，所以這方面使用上還是有差異，但是我們會來持續加強宣導，也會跟主管機關持續溝通，請主管機關繼續精算，基本費到底應該收多少錢才合理。謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。因為我覺得公共安全其實是蠻重要的，所以這個可能要去研議一下，讓大家都可以接受，這樣會比較好。","接下來，我再問一下主委，本席研究預算發現，111年和112年你們編列退除役官兵退休給付的人事費連續兩年決算都比原本的預算高，請問這個原因是怎麼樣呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：退除給與跟發放的人數有關係，如果人數增加，我們的退除給與就會比較高；人數少，退除給與就會比較少，跟人數有關係。"],["林委員憶君：當時你們是用什麼方式支出這些人事費呢？這個是不是動用第一預備金？如果是動用預備金的話，是不是應該檢討相關不合常規的動支方式？有沒有什麼改善的方法、因應的措施？"],["羅處長馬可：委員好，我是退休給付處處長。感謝委員的關切，因為近兩年人數都有增加，我們的預算主要是依照國防部提供的需求，以及我們既定支領退休俸的人數來編列。"],["林委員憶君：今年的狀況是不是有掌握呢？"],["羅處長馬可：今年不會申請預備金。"],["林委員憶君：所以不會超支就對了？"],["羅處長馬可：對。"],["林委員憶君：因為我要提醒的是，按照中央各主管機關編製114年度概算應行注意辦理事項第五點規定，各機關依照法律義務必須編列的重大支出，應該逐項檢討、匡列，重要的經費應該優先編列預算辦理。退除役官兵退休給付之人事費，法律義務的支出要核實編列，可以做到嗎？因為我現在看近年來退除役官兵退休給付的人事費，每年都大概超過700億元而且逐年在增加，這樣對國庫的財務負擔真的是蠻重的，但是我們又要兼顧軍職人員的退休權益與軍職人員退撫基金財務的永續，所以請退輔會要好好掌握官兵離退的情況，而且做好因應措施。因為這樣才能安定退除役官兵退伍後還有其眷屬的生活，可以做到嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們會跟國防部密切聯繫、密切配合，精算人數，然後悉數編列。謝謝召委。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員，吳思瑤委員不在。","接下來，請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-16","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","馬文君","黃仁","鄭天財Sra 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