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立席委員林德福委員等28人"},{"start":1857.584,"end":1876.431,"text":"內席人員11月20日河南安全委員會代理主任委員張欣率同有關人員行政法人國家原子能科技研究院院長高子牧行政院主席總署公務院專屬專門委員黃子涵行政院主席總署基金院專屬專門委員吳阮玉11月21日文化部部長李遠率同有關人員"},{"start":1877.151,"end":1898.622,"text":"行政法人國家表演藝術中心主任秘書郭美娟行政法人文化內容策進院董事長蔡佳俊行政法人國家電影及視聽文化中心董事長祖明元行政院主計總署公共預算處專門委員黃子涵行政院主計總署基金預算處科長王佩珊主席范昭吉委員元11月20日"},{"start":1899.362,"end":1917.251,"text":"萬召集委員每臨11月21日。11月20日報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定因素確定。二、河南安全委員會代理主任委員張新列起報告業務概況並被質詢。討論事項一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關河南安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":1917.831,"end":1942.708,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關可能安全委員會主寡核子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。三、審查114年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案緊進行詢討本議程採訟可詢答由委員洪文凱等11人提出質詢均經可能安全委員會代理主任委員張新吉相關人員及其答覆並由委員吳春成等二人提出書面質詢"},{"start":1944.409,"end":1969.237,"text":"決議一報告及詢答完畢。六委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報。三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分。請相關機關盡速以書面答覆。四、114年度中央政府總預算案有關河南安全委員會及所屬單位預算案。河南安全委員會主管河子事故緊急應變基金附屬單位預算案。行政法人國家原子能科技研究院預算案。"},{"start":1969.657,"end":1992.008,"text":"相關提案請於11月29日下午2時前提出並定期繼續審查11月21日討論事項一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管文化基金"},{"start":1992.988,"end":2017.822,"text":"附屬單位預算案四、審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心文化內容次金月國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案．進行詢答本議彩彩綜合詢答由委員林倩琦等19人提出質詢。軍軍文化部部長李遠及相關人員即席答覆並由委員賴慧媛等二人提出書面質詢。決議一報告及詢答完畢。任委員鎖庭書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報。"},{"start":2018.502,"end":2046.948,"text":"三、對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分,僅相關機關介述已順便答覆。四、114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案。 unemployable主管國家文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。 unemployable文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案。 unemployable行政法人國家表演藝術中心 unemployable文化內容設計院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案。 unemployable相關提案請於11月28日下午20時前提出,令定期繼續審查。"},{"start":2048.288,"end":2049.69,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處?"},{"start":2060.528,"end":2083.003,"text":"沒有,我們議事錄確定。今天的議程有兩項,第一項繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。第二項繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":2083.703,"end":2110.641,"text":"我們首先介紹在場的委員其次介紹與會的官員我們現場有柯之恩委員陳培宇委員陳秀寶委員郭育晴委員我們還有中央研究院院長廖俊智副院長周美銀副院長唐唐"},{"start":2113.534,"end":2130.431,"text":"副院長彭信坤秘書長陳君浩行政院主計總處公務預算處檢任視察李培元基金預算處科長劉亞斐"},{"start":2134.971,"end":2149.061,"text":"那我想昨天迎球大家應該心情都很好所以今天預算審查應該會順利那我們現在進行預算審查有就是剛剛講過中央研究院單位預算案計113案"},{"start":2150.842,"end":2165.259,"text":"中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案 那我們請議事委員宣讀預算案及提案內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增或修正文字之主決議請議事委員一併宣讀那我們現在就換座位開始"},{"start":2177.192,"end":2196.979,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案審查中央研究院收支部分稅入部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第四項中央研究院500萬元第四款財產收入第五項中央研究院493萬8千元第七款其他收入第五項中央研究院1億3892萬4千元"},{"start":2200.905,"end":2212.011,"text":"最初部分第一款總統府主管第五項中央研究院143億5487萬2千元第一幕一般行政3億0312萬8千元第二幕一般學術研究執評役74億6662萬元"},{"start":2221.695,"end":2227.918,"text":"自然及人文社會科學研究466524萬1千元南部園區615131萬3千元非營業特種基金125874萬5千元一般建築及設備245萬元第一預備金737萬5千元"},{"start":2248.548,"end":2250.25,"text":"我們大家都準備好了嗎?"},{"start":2266.05,"end":2289.751,"text":"那我想我們就從這個提案會整表手上有這個第一頁開始因為我們有一些是新委員可能沒有審查過那我們等一下就從那個歲初的部分就是序號一到第七然後一次就是讓委員可以表達自己的看法那目前歲初的部分是整體的那個總三那針對我們第一頁"},{"start":2292.433,"end":2300.146,"text":"序號第一到第七,有萬美玲委員等的提案,有沒有哪位委員?柯之恩委員先。"},{"start":2302.839,"end":2324.405,"text":"我想有關於這一部分裡面那個萬委員剛有提案可是他人還沒有來可是呢我想大家純粹都是會根據這個貴重儀器的使用率的這個層面不管你刪減的是多少那對我來說的話我是在第6案的部分我說實在是蠻客氣的好不好眾院院的公關做得蠻好的都來跟我們充分溝通"},{"start":2325.425,"end":2351.862,"text":"但是你可以看得出來大家的方向其實是一致的我主要是針對你看一千萬以上的貴重儀器真的是使用率偏低而且其中有近兩成的設備使用率是五成都不到那我們既然都給中研院這麼多的一個支持那我想要求買設備我們當然沒有問題但是都是花了這麼多錢來添購然後應該是物盡其用而不是擺在一邊來生灰塵"},{"start":2353.343,"end":2354.123,"text":"謝謝柯臻委員。再來是不是萬美玲委員要發言?"},{"start":2379.714,"end":2394.101,"text":"我聽到我們科資委員一百問我這個案子就不知道怎麼講下去了不過我覺得應該是要這樣講了謝謝召委那其實中央院的預算其實向來尤其像上一屆我們也在這裡都非常的支持不過真的當本席看到就是這筆預算的時候"},{"start":2395.922,"end":2415.412,"text":"我剛進來其實就有聽到科委員在陳述我想我們的論點跟看法是一樣的就是說我們願意支持我們各方面的預算那我們也是一個研究單位嘛但是如果說這個預算我們已經給了可是我們發現在使用上面好像沒有得到我們當初要給這筆預算的效能的時候那我們當然需要來檢討它"},{"start":2416.953,"end":2438.636,"text":"當然就是院長來辦公室溝通可是我覺得還是沒有辦法很詳細的去理解說為什麼這38台的貴重儀器使用率可以低於50%如果你比較低也沒有關係但是低於50%我覺得就真的是有點太低了所以我是希望說是不是能夠再有一個更清楚的說明那當然"},{"start":2439.857,"end":2466.277,"text":"我們本來是希望,我辦公室我們本來是希望說能夠凍結這個預算大概10%那這個凍結當然也不是說就要把你刪除嘛就是說是不是能夠提出一個說明然後呢我們再來看在解凍的時候有沒有達到這個目的那當然大家可以討論啦因為這個一頁大家好像都覺得太多了齁院長覺得太多了齁好那我想說明一下好不好好那要不要看有沒有別的委員要講真的就好林益勤委員又安"},{"start":2468.038,"end":2468.058,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":2487.219,"end":2487.239,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":2503.32,"end":2522.217,"text":"中研院之前也有說明說這些儀器其實要借給全國大專院校一起來使用那本期是樂見這樣的形式來提高使用率也可以更加加強宣傳這個大專院校可以來跟中研院來借用那而且整體這個儀器使用的效益也請中研院務必"},{"start":2522.597,"end":2522.797,"text":"中央委員會議"},{"start":2544.198,"end":2547.139,"text":"我是學術署處長陳建章我跟委員謝謝委員對我們貴重儀器使用率有些儀器過低表示關切"},{"start":2565.046,"end":2586.852,"text":"那我很快解釋一下我們的貴重儀器呢大概有分兩大類一類就是核心設施這個我們是開放不只院裡面還有全國各界都可以來使用這一部分的儀器使用率都很好我們有一些儀器呢是個別研究人員他的研究需求的那那些有些就會比較低"},{"start":2587.572,"end":2609.099,"text":"我們現在也在想辦法跟他們講說這些儀器都要盡量開放給全院的同仁甚至全國的這些研究單位都可以來使用所以我們會進一步這塊我們會盡量進一步那剛剛有委員提到說我們有一台去年使用率是零因為那一台是105年買的已經有新的儀器那一台要整個報廢了所以"},{"start":2610.379,"end":2631.358,"text":"就是有新的儀器所以那一台還沒報廢所以使用率因為它是超過買的時候超過一千萬所以還是要調查所以才會是零但是那一台應該明年就會報廢掉應該今年到明年我們就把它報廢掉因為已經不能使用了這樣子簡單說明 謝謝好 那個柯政委員說用麥克風"},{"start":2635.382,"end":2662.444,"text":"不好意思這樣講反而更confused105年到現在也不過才幾年的時間然後超過一千萬以上馬上要報廢然後你反而引起我們的好奇就一千萬以上的儀器然後使用率不是那麼樣它是因為太舊還是因為什麼樣的方式因為有更新的儀器而且它已經舊了有更新更好的技術出來了那這一台我有去看它是在我們的核心設施核心設施有更好的儀器真的"},{"start":2663.174,"end":2688.366,"text":"那你終於以後買一期我們是不是要合理的懷疑在七年八年不到的時間一千萬的部分再有更新的部分那這個地方馬上就不能夠使用這樣是不是讓我們來說的話是不是對於這個預算上面來說反而是更需要被嚴格的監督的因為馬上就被replace了嘛對不對馬上就被replace而且一千萬以上的一期馬上就被replace不到十年時間被replace這個東西對我們來說這個效益上反而是更應該被"},{"start":2689.934,"end":2713.477,"text":"我們有很多先進的儀器事實上是每兩三年就有更新。我可以補充一下嗎?好,那個萬美玲委員先補充,待會副院長再發言。我想其實剛剛這個在說明前的時候我就想要再提一點就是說現在我們看到這個使用率低那我們就在想怎麼樣去突破低這件事情比如說廣泛的讓大家來使用"},{"start":2713.797,"end":2728.814,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2728.894,"end":2728.974,"text":"陳秀寶委員要發言"},{"start":2753.402,"end":2754.103,"text":"葛如君委員要發言"},{"start":2774.067,"end":2800.183,"text":"我們都知道台積電為什麼有這麼強大的領先能力是因為他們早期就碰下決心去預購未來的系統跟設備那如果我們每一年在購買設備的時候都是購買當年的設備而不是預購下一個世代的設備很可能就會有這個問題等到你買了預算編列買完拿到了其實新的設備已經出來了所以才會有這種研究人員可能會覺得你這個已經"},{"start":2800.763,"end":2800.783,"text":"好。"},{"start":2829.468,"end":2858.56,"text":"這個我也幫中研講一下話我跟中研工作過他們連一部電腦都管制得非常嚴格我當年換工作到台大的時候因為還沒有到那個是6年還怎麼報廢期大概我用了4年我想說這是我個人電腦嘛還簽了一個借據跟中研院社會所借據我才能帶走因為過兩年就要報銷了所以其實他們連桌椅設備都管控得嚴格因為我們現在看的是總體你知道嗎那副院長是不是說明一下"},{"start":2860.685,"end":2887.962,"text":"副院長周美銀剛剛非常謝謝各位委員的提出的這些意見那我跟各位委員稍微簡單報告一下那什麼時候報費每一個儀器都有它的使用期限買來的時候就定在規定在上面對那我們絕對不會在那個之前那一定在那之後然後還撐了一陣子以後那如果說它的量測的那個data"},{"start":2888.622,"end":2888.743,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2903.464,"end":2903.504,"text":"議員：一、繼續審查"},{"start":2926.863,"end":2943.372,"text":"在實現到以後就會報廢。關於使用率的問題因為研究性的這個儀器可能它在某一個那個整個研究過程中在某一個階段它要來做這些測量"},{"start":2949.774,"end":2961.839,"text":"議員提到說使用率不是完全的一個看它的這個就是說是不是用到這個機器的要看我們的研究成果因為看使用率其實很不太"},{"start":2963.019,"end":2984.457,"text":"奇怪,像我們的投影機使用率是非常高可是冷氣機如果你看它的使用率它是必要的它使用率不是那麼高因為每年在某段時間我們不需要那研究上也有這樣子的情形我們在某個階段會需要用某個機器做這些那個那每個階段一步一步下來它有不同的機器"},{"start":2985.157,"end":2985.317,"text":"陳秀寶委員可以用麥克風"},{"start":2998.643,"end":3028.131,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3029.232,"end":3053.407,"text":"不好意思,我最後還是要發言,對不起副院長你的回應實在是讓我更confused你不能拿我們這種千萬以上的儀器來跟這個投影機跟這個冷氣機來做對比這個每一筆都是我們立法委員認為中研院非常有必要的我剛剛看了這個01級委員裡面三台未達10%,一台沒有使用我可不可以問一下這一台沒有使用大概是耗費多少?千萬以上是多少錢?"},{"start":3054.668,"end":3055.549,"text":"一千一百萬左右"},{"start":3070.583,"end":3097.764,"text":"那是很就是舊代的新聞他不是買了都沒用對不起可能我剛剛沒有這是去年的使用率因為有新一代的前面大概每年如果我可以提供委員從買來一直到他被淘汰我不能說淘汰就有新的取代他之前的使用率對不起8年嗎還是105年到現在嗎對這個有時候我必須要講我們這些儀器有時候像軍備的競賽"},{"start":3101.331,"end":3122.121,"text":"有新的有更好的技術出來的時候我們我要說的就是如果我們沒有跟上我們沒有這種儀器可以做我們就會跟不上別人的那個說明大概已經差不多委員都了解了那是不是這個部分如果沒有委員要發言的話因為剛剛柯正委員是說凍結100萬那林議員已經改組決議了我們是不是整個統統100萬這整個部分那個萬美玲委員是不是OK"},{"start":3133.468,"end":3160.504,"text":"他不是說做軍備競賽啦他舉例啦這個可能下次不要用軍備舉例啦大家覺得比較敏感就是輸人不輸器材嘛這個意思誰是這個動100萬所以這邊柯真委員這個是設備及投資這邊動100萬我們是算整個統統還是這一齊就是這個設備我們討論都整個一起整個統統100萬好不好"},{"start":3163.613,"end":3181,"text":"萬美玲委員OK嗎?我原則上我同意但是我想可不可以啊剛才本席有提了一個就是說我們要去訂定一個啦有沒有辦法很細的這個細則出來但至少要有一個訂定一個不管是像剛才葛如君委員說的我們比較遠的計畫應該要買什麼或進程的我們什麼該買不該買我覺得我們要訂定一個計畫出來"},{"start":3186.442,"end":3207.466,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3209.322,"end":3221.432,"text":"剛剛那個議事員釐清一下,我們是二到七統統一百萬,那因為第一項是整個中央研究院改組決議是不是,外邁林可以改組決議第一項,那我們是不是就第一項改組決議,林議員改組決議,然後二到七這個統統一百萬,好嗎?"},{"start":3227.017,"end":3229.72,"text":"第1目一般行政第14案第8案到第14案有沒有哪位委員發言陳秀寶委員先然後再柯志恩委員"},{"start":3243.318,"end":3260.944,"text":"謝謝主席我這邊提的案子是第10案那我提的凍結數是500萬這個部分是我們一般行政向下人員維持的部分一邊列預算有3億300多萬那是包含我們中研院人員的維持及基本行政的工作維持相關的經費"},{"start":3263.706,"end":3277.222,"text":"中央研究院有來說明這個部分人事費是何時編列但是這個真的有一些這個薪資結構是不合理我還是要提一下一般行政的業務御用人員是43人"},{"start":3279.404,"end":3284.63,"text":"在一般學術研究及評議的業務費用,業用人員是707人,勞務承攬是104人。在研究計畫裡面,業用人員是2989人,勞務承攬是462人。"},{"start":3295.722,"end":3323.97,"text":"而且還有一點我發現說你們的超時加班以及未休假獎金非常的高所以在你們整個的這個工作的這個時數或者說我們在這個有沒有讓我們的員工有沒有讓我們的相關的這些人員感覺到說在工作上的這個壓力或者這個時數你們有這樣子的工作時數你們編列這樣的薪資我不是有意見我意思就是說為什麼會這麼多是不是我們在整個的"},{"start":3324.77,"end":3337.858,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":3338.662,"end":3366.757,"text":"我們這個這個約聘僱的人員30人他們的這個薪資有2000多萬那工讀生兩人呢跟這個就有1000多1000萬所以這個部分是不是我們本身的這個薪資結構這樣是不是合理的我想請你們是不是可以等一下說明一下好那個柯之恩然後待會羅廷偉然後再來那個吳佩奕"},{"start":3368.069,"end":3371.675,"text":"第9、11案中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":3380.942,"end":3400.36,"text":"那114年你又比112年又多變了3043萬所以呢從前年的決算來看明年似乎也不需要這麼樣多的錢了所以就看你比前後比對那後來當然有周圓圓的同仁過來溝通啊那我們當然也考量到部分經費涉及到人事的薪資我想你知道我們是最不想動人事薪資的"},{"start":3401.101,"end":3414.933,"text":"因為我想大家都非常的辛苦所以我覺得這個第9案我可以把它改成組決議這個沒有問題但第11案我還是要特別講一下因為你是有關於基本的行政工作的維持那我們知道綜藝院每年都會編預算來辦理你們區總變電站還有區變電站的這個高壓設備的公共設施嘛這不是問題嘛 對不對綜藝院每年都有那我也知道各機關現在都喜歡來拼這個節電"},{"start":3426.423,"end":3453.017,"text":"然後總統呢我也不曉得在國家氣候變遷委員會的時候大家應該都還記得吧他把中研院納入第一階段公部門的節電目標不曉得你們做得太好還是做得不好就被總統給點名然後中研院雖然有解釋他們在節電你們雖然也解釋做了很多的一個努力但是會議上有人建議中研院要來帶頭做我不曉得是誰要害你們真的沒有不曉得哪個單位要看中研院不順眼你看立法院都對你們這麼好就叫你們要來帶頭來做"},{"start":3454.398,"end":3471.264,"text":"那既然你們已經變為各單位的一個標竿各位各單位的標竿那我就還是需要凍結一下希望你們提供具體且有效的節電措施那我本來是凍結500我現在把它縮短把它改凍結凍結100萬可不可以因為你們還50萬我的助理為什麼把你要500萬變成50萬這個我要問一下你們這個人太會講話了好啦50萬的這個部分因為你們還是要提出一個說明好不好"},{"start":3487.289,"end":3495.705,"text":"剛剛第9案改成主決議,第11案改成凍結50萬,那我們是不是再來是羅廷薇委員發言,等一下吳佩穎"},{"start":3498.193,"end":3522.973,"text":"謝謝昭偉我想這個我是第八案齁那目前我這邊是凍結一百萬或者是三列一百萬那我想這個我們發現啦這個違反多起的那個勞動相關法規的事情啦好那我希望說眾議院呢在對這個部分應該要給予一個解釋齁對於勞動法規極為不熟悉我想要了解幾個事項"},{"start":3524.776,"end":3527.131,"text":"中央研究院的勞工跟公務人員的比例是多少?"},{"start":3528.286,"end":3556.186,"text":"這個部分我希望能夠待會回答我一下然後勞動權益高漲為什麼會違反勞動勞權我覺得這個是很嚴重的一個事情那這個部分我們非常的嚴重看待所以我希望中央院這個部分待會能夠說明那這幾年有沒有違反勞動法規裁罰的金額有沒有記錄這些相關的一些裁罰金額跟記錄是不是可以提供資料給我們那我個人認為人事制在這個部分呢督導不周"},{"start":3557.106,"end":3580.94,"text":"所以這個我希望院長這個能夠嚴正的開單這件事情所以我在這邊提出第8案謝謝好謝謝羅廷偉委員再來吳佩儀委員發言下一個萬美玲我的提案是第14案那這一案的這個年度預算是3960萬9千元那我提出是希望凍結數我本來是寫20萬但是我助理改成10萬"},{"start":3582.2,"end":3608.284,"text":"那這一案其實是鼓勵性質因為院長知道我一直在質詢的時候就很關注我們的研發能量要提升這個計畫其中有培育人才、後職研究人力那因為我看你們過去五年今年以前過去五年的人數是有下降的但確實我看了你們今年的表現這個博士後跟碩博士生人數都有增加那我主要我有意見的部分是"},{"start":3608.644,"end":3631.506,"text":"您們明年的目標只算有提升提升到270人但我覺得這太保守了因為你今年後來博士後來有申請有287人所以我其實是希望說這個計畫我們未來你要再去把它擴大然後去把它預算再去做調整所以我是鼓勵性質啦是凍結10萬那我也希望跟主席建議因為我看有"},{"start":3631.866,"end":3634.447,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":3660.219,"end":3660.379,"text":"議員８立法院議員"},{"start":3684.162,"end":3705.612,"text":"但是呢本辦在看這個預算的時候我們看到在20案的地方其實他也是有一個宿舍的這個費用而且那個宿舍是不是好像還高達了3000萬左右所以我在想如果前面有宿舍後面有宿舍至少有重複編列那所以當然我覺得前面就是我提案就是先凍結10%等到看中央院來做一個說明"},{"start":3707.813,"end":3736.519,"text":"謝謝萬美林委員那這一幕還有沒有人要發言的那沒有的話我也講一下我的第13案那這個是關於就是眾議院我們發現眾議院目前的倫理規約跟性騷擾的處理流程裡面有一個漏洞就是關於那個權勢性騷擾到底是適用倫理規範還是適用你們的性騷擾防治措施跟申訴懲處的處理要點那希望你們可以進一步釐清那還有"},{"start":3737.399,"end":3759.552,"text":"相關的委員會應該要有一定的性別比例,達三分之一。已經跟你們溝通過,你們表達就是會在明年1月31日前提出書面報告,所以這個我可以改成主決議。以上說明。那我們是不是就請眾議院針對這個第一幕大家的要求回應一下。"},{"start":3764.264,"end":3783.518,"text":"委員好,我是人事室主任周佩芳。那就剛剛的幾個問題先跟各位委員說明。首先是我們中研院的人事費,尤其是一般行政裡面的人員維持費的部分,這個部分主要是運本部的"},{"start":3784.699,"end":3810.239,"text":"而編制內人員的人事費用那剛剛委員有提到說為什麼往年還有節餘那今年有特別多那主要原因是因為我們今年成立了南院服務處所以我們向行政院請證了多了12個元額所以今年會增加那我們在編列人事費的時候向來都是核實編列"},{"start":3810.919,"end":3834.856,"text":"那今年增加是因為增加了這12個元額所以人事費的部分會增加那過去因為人事費有時候會有一些進進出出那我們盡量就是算得盡量精準那有時候往年就會就是在人員進進出出的情況下有時候"},{"start":3835.777,"end":3851.725,"text":"以往年度就會稍微有一點點節育那因為人事費是沒有辦法留用的但我們還是會盡量精準的計算何時來編列那有關委員關注說我們加班費對於員工的"},{"start":3853.813,"end":3876.93,"text":"壓力公時是不是有特別就是有沒有關注到員工的工作壓力的部分剛剛委員提到我們的加班費編列是不是有特別多的部分那我跟委員報告這個部分其實沒有像委員在提案裡面提到的這個部分加班費我們去計算這個部分"},{"start":3877.29,"end":3902.722,"text":"因為他還要計算那個未休假加班費然後在扣掉之後平均一個人每個月的加班費大概是2000多那一個月頂多就是幾個小時到10個小時左右那相就是以各機關的狀況來講這個部分其實應該是不算太多那工讀生兩個人我們是編列一"},{"start":3904.086,"end":3929.177,"text":"一百萬左右那一百萬扣掉那個勞健保啊或是年終工作獎金那些有的沒有的那剩下來平均一個人大概是三萬塊左右三萬塊現在基本工資也已經將近三萬塊了所以這個部分也應該也算是核實編列那這個部分應該都是大家可以接受的範圍之內"},{"start":3932.878,"end":3951.405,"text":"嗯那另一個問題是那個羅委員提到的我們違反勞動法規的部分那我跟委員報告我們的公務人員編制內公務人員大概有全院大概是有"},{"start":3952.305,"end":3966.381,"text":"三百多個人三百多個人那我們是用勞基法的專任的人員的部分大概是四千多人但是我們還有其他一些兼任的人員兼任的人員"},{"start":3967.082,"end":3994.411,"text":"那全院工作的人員大概有8000多人所以我們全院適用勞基法每年進進出出大概徵才廣告我們每年就會有上千則所以其實我們本院是非常遵守法令的那在適用勞基法的徵才公告我們都會非常去注意那委員提到說我們有沒有被裁罰報告委員我們"},{"start":3995.932,"end":4020.092,"text":"說沒有被裁罰那是騙人的一定會有但是今年其實被裁罰的金額是不高的那有一些也還在訴願中但我們謝謝委員指導將來我們也還是會繼續去改進然後督促各單位繼續去就是把徵裁公告還有適用各種勞基法的規定繼續來精進那謝謝委員指導"},{"start":4023.752,"end":4041.001,"text":"而另外就是范雲委員提到的那個全市性騷擾的部分我們在倫理規約的那個規定裡面如果是一般違反倫理規約的部分我們會送倫理委員會去處理但是倫理"},{"start":4042.482,"end":4066.88,"text":"委員會他的作業要點裡面他有規定說如果是其他法令另有規定者他就依其他法令的規定所以如果是涉及性騷擾的案件我們依照性騷擾的要點就會送到性騷擾的申訴委員會去處理那性騷擾處理就是在委員會處理的時候他也會依照各類人員的規定"},{"start":4069.983,"end":4073.787,"text":"科珍委員先我想問一下我剛剛只是要釐清一下你剛剛的加班費只是針對你們中研院的行政人員嗎?"},{"start":4089.623,"end":4107.098,"text":"是,行政委員的加班費兩千多萬。好,那目前為止這個加班部分跟補修的部分你們是分開來做處理嗎?因為目前有非常多學術單位因為翻不出錢來,他們都用補修來代替加班費。所以中原有加班費已經算是很不錯了,對不起。這已經算是很不錯,在全國來說都算是很不錯了。所以你們跟補修來說是分開來做一個處理嗎?"},{"start":4112.483,"end":4114.605,"text":"我現在真的覺得中研院真的是一個很有善的工作環境好不好跟其他學術單位比起來你們算是非常好了"},{"start":4133.4,"end":4154.049,"text":"那個再來先秀寶委員先然後再萬美玲委員對不起但是因為阿我剛剛提的案子他們沒有回答那我不曉得是不是因為無法回答如果無法回答這就按照這樣來刪除好不好那我們請秀寶委員講完之後等一下再請中醫院這邊一起回應萬美玲委員的好不好剛剛你們秀寶委員是要回應剛剛中醫院的回應嗎"},{"start":4156.59,"end":4176.923,"text":"萬委員剛提到的是第12案那裡面也牽涉到第20案有關於房屋養護的費用是宿舍的部分有沒有重複的編列其實第12案裡面的宿舍是因為這個預算書格式限制我們寫單項就是宿舍的維護費用大概格式比較難寫說它裡面的細項因為它養護的部分有很多只是排水"},{"start":4177.483,"end":4178.464,"text":"二十頁的部分還包括了"},{"start":4204.171,"end":4208.552,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4226.418,"end":4253.197,"text":"其實本席剛剛問的已經講過了養護隨著我們的建築物越來年限越久本來就會增加其實不必在這裡去講什麼窗台啦什麼的我們今天的問題就是在於本辦發現我們在宿舍的部分前面跟後面有重複編列但是第一個在上一段的時候其實並沒有回答這一段呢又沒有回答到重點我是覺得中研院如果是用這樣的態度來面對這個預算的答詢可能不夠嚴謹好不好好"},{"start":4255.519,"end":4257.22,"text":"中央院的招待所是用來做什麼的?"},{"start":4272.731,"end":4273.632,"text":"可以說明一下嗎?"},{"start":4273.632,"end":4288.574,"text":"是是就是學人訪問學人來這邊臺灣住的時候或是各個地方來臺北就短期的訪問啦你那個招待所那個分起來很像就是短期的宿舍是的不是對是短期的宿舍不要用招待所大家會誤會喔"},{"start":4289.555,"end":4314.064,"text":"一般的宿舍是員工的?因為真的很特別啊,如果我們還做一個招待所,你看我們一般的感受上招待所都說什麼?是短期學人宿舍是中期的宿舍短中期學人宿舍我覺得金額科目項目其實應該要把它說明清楚比較好一點那個絕對不好好,我們再寫清楚一點短中期學人宿舍是不一樣,不一樣陳秀寶委員,然後等一下羅廷薇委員"},{"start":4316.588,"end":4316.808,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4332.5,"end":4332.86,"text":"第10次全體委員會議"},{"start":4356.36,"end":4370.493,"text":"好那我也要表達一下剛剛那個萬美玲委員那一案喔說是招待所我覺得不太能夠接受啦所以我希望到底要釐清一下這個名字、名稱的用字選擇啊名稱是表達的不好因為"},{"start":4373.916,"end":4398.49,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4398.69,"end":4402.493,"text":"我是第八案喔但是我還是要回應一下剛剛那個人是試給我的回答是今年的財閥不多"},{"start":4418.151,"end":4435.647,"text":"那往年呢?所以往年的裁罰紀錄我想了解一下,到底我們違反勞動法規這個部分的嚴重情勢我們要了解到底有多嚴重。我想這個勞動法規都記載得很清楚,在登載這個相關偵採的時候,4萬以下應該要揭露。"},{"start":4438.55,"end":4448.071,"text":"政治措施4萬以下未揭露其他的措施連薪資都直接不寫我不懂這樣子怎麼徵才是無上限嗎?"},{"start":4449.705,"end":4470.965,"text":"只要你來了還是還是不下線所以這個部分我希望最違反勞動法規這就是已經沒有什麼好解釋的所以在這個部分上我是蠻強硬我覺得這個部分我的這一幕戲希望是可以單獨動100跟其他的不太一樣是希望他已經有違規的情勢希望大家可以支持謝謝"},{"start":4471.866,"end":4485.65,"text":"好 那這一幕還有沒有人要發言的 這個題目 那我也補充一下喔 就是剛剛那個助言這邊回應我已經改成主約的部分 也跟我這邊收到的訊息不一樣 因為你們11月25號會議協商說會回去修正"},{"start":4488.591,"end":4515.018,"text":"只是剛剛的報告去說沒有修正的必要都沒問題所以是不是有點誤會因為我的部分還有說要提及文理委員會的性別比例那至少一定要修改嘛那你剛說權勢性騷就會直接歸性騷那因為你權勢就是霸凌這一類又是歸倫理這個規約還是能夠稍微的明文化會不會一點會不會更好要不然大家看到不知道是哪一種"},{"start":4516.63,"end":4541.572,"text":"報告委員,那個我們性騷擾申訴委員會他的性別比例是女性至少要二分之一以上那委員如果還有其他修正的必要我們也會回去修改有的是寫倫理委員會三分之一那是要修嘛那你剛剛報告說沒有修改的必要喔我聽到了所以大家要跟我們辦公室談得要一致啊"},{"start":4542.172,"end":4566.21,"text":"因為委員都有資料在身上好 那如果沒有其他的意見我們這個是第9、第10、第13案已經改成主決議那我們是不是就一起凍結因為剛剛有有100、有50、有20那是不是折衷部院長講一下這邊凍50可以嗎"},{"start":4568.482,"end":4568.982,"text":"羅廷偉委員有意見,您表達一下。"},{"start":4586.235,"end":4609.484,"text":"主席既然我是寫100當然尊重主席主席說50可是我覺得這個書面報告就可以解凍由於形式我想這個應該是不會是形式你到時候可以來反對說他們沒有做好這個不是形式我們解凍案都是要大家同意所以到時候書面報告寫不好的話您可以來反對解凍我還是希望能夠專案報告"},{"start":4611.185,"end":4639.76,"text":"專案報告對我這邊有寫我的第8案是這邊寫的前面幾位是表達不需要啦好不好因為我聽到的多數的意見覺得不需要專案報告那個柯中委員要院長馬上遞麥克風給柯委員欸沒有沒有因為前面幾位的表情看起來都覺得還沒有到要那個那個叫什麼專案報告柯委員你要救他是嗎不是因為那個因為羅委員非常的認真又是年輕的委員通常在中研院這個部分"},{"start":4640.18,"end":4642.242,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4669.384,"end":4694.958,"text":"請他退回去或如何的來做一個處理要專案報告後面還有一些細項可以專案報告不好意思羅廷偉委員如果大家都很有共鳴的話一定都會很同意要專案報告當然啦但是我要顯現告訴院長我非常重視這件事情違反勞動法規這可以說明中央院單位就是學有專精我們都可以認同但是對勞動法規相當的極為不熟悉你們這裡一定要再加強我一定會再追這件事情"},{"start":4695.618,"end":4707.714,"text":"也是啦,因為過去都有一些小型的勞動爭議嘛,那現在大家越來越重視勞動權益,要好好的回應喔。回應不好我們可能不讓你們解凍喔。如果回應不好我看你們來我辦公室上課好了。"},{"start":4709.858,"end":4734.335,"text":"那第一幕謝謝羅廷瑋委員那我們就一起那個併動50萬那我們現在進入第二幕書面報告後解凍那第二幕一般學術研究及評議從15案到第58案那個陳培委員先然後等一下張雅琳委員然後郭育晴然後陳秀寶林依謹然後柯志恩"},{"start":4736.469,"end":4737.472,"text":"還有吳佩奕吳春成"},{"start":4742.93,"end":4767.716,"text":"好主席點名完了謝謝主席那我的部分是第26編號26還有編號44我要先說就是非常感謝中研院在我們去年質詢關於兒童科普日的部分馬上就在去年就先舉辦今年繼續舉辦可是我們後來才知道原來科普教育的推廣不是中央研究院的法定任務"},{"start":4768.636,"end":4781.901,"text":"所以等於是中央研究院在做社會責任這個部分我要先給中央研究院院長還有連續這兩年所有的行政同仁還有相關支持這些活動的老師們謝謝你們"},{"start":4784.022,"end":4805.529,"text":"在做非法定任務的事情但是對我們來說我們認為科普教育的推廣由中研院推出有其必要性喔那所以我還是希望可以繼續監督中研院在做這件事情所以我們去了解相關預算結構之後我們知道目前是由各院所發出構想再由秘書處協助會診然後用秘書處的經費來支應那我自己兩年都參加我必須要說活動越來越豐富"},{"start":4811.391,"end":4812.952,"text":"議員：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4829.888,"end":4853.292,"text":"成立專責單位那當然上次在質詢的時候院長你有說你們會回去規劃因為這確實需要時間還有相關的人力資源的配置但我必須要說如果他變成一個是秘書處因為剛剛委員們都在講勞動法規的部分很重要但是如果因為我們要求的科普教育然後院裡面也有老師做得很開心但最後變成違反勞動法規這也不是我們的本意"},{"start":4853.872,"end":4871.777,"text":"所以就要拜託中研院這邊研究有沒有機會成立專責單位他就有專門的預算可以來處理這件事情讓這件事情真的可以長長久久下去這是二十六那44的部分喔這邊中研院我們提到的是人文社會科學博士生經、獎學金我們知道中研院今年有開辦"},{"start":4872.777,"end":4901.957,"text":"希望刺激更多人文社會領域的學生有更多未來的想像那我們繼續想要拜託中研院研議未來我國人文領域研究發展的方向跟規劃希望中研院可以用林投揚的角色給予國內的學術單位一個刺激跟鼓勵那畢竟面對理工傾斜這個狀況我知道我相信很多人都覺得越來越嚴重但是我們到底有沒有什麼方法來協助台灣的人文社會科學系或者是藝術人文學系都有機會還是可以平衡的發展"},{"start":4902.737,"end":4923.914,"text":"那至於預算處理的部分我想就尊重主席待會一併的討論跟決定但是我的提案說明就是以上說明謝謝好謝謝陳培委員喔因為剛剛大家舉手的我們記錄意識來不及記錄我先確認一下再來順序是不是張雅玲、陳秀寶、吳佩奕、郭育晴、林依謹啊?你是先者"},{"start":4926.915,"end":4931.439,"text":"張雅玲、郭育晴、陳秀寶、林怡瑾、吳佩奕、柯之恩、葉元芝、吳春成"},{"start":4945.302,"end":4945.982,"text":"江雅琳委員第15案人才培育計畫"},{"start":4967.452,"end":4980.001,"text":"就是在我們延攬資深學員的子計畫來說我們目標是定10個可是我們只有達到3個那到底是為什麼我上面有看到原因跟我的說明是說因為個人家庭因素可能會影響他的遷移意願"},{"start":4981.479,"end":5002.016,"text":"但是我想可能還有薪資或者是說一些移民的就業金卡的一些相關規定導致了他們不願意來我覺得這些都應該要更詳盡的去了解之後提供給我們的相關單位讓他們去在就業金卡的一些調整上面可以去因應我們才有可能去延攬到這些資深學人那再來就是說"},{"start":5003.217,"end":5025.537,"text":"我們對於一些就是國際研究生學成我們是有在增加那我覺得我現在看到就是說都是一個量化的數據就是說我們有增加可是目標到底是多少其實我看不出來所以我還是希望說因為我們有一個目標你才能知道你要怎麼努力的去達成那到底我們離目標多遠這個我也希望待會可以做個清楚的說明"},{"start":5026.533,"end":5026.553,"text":"第24會議"},{"start":5041.994,"end":5069.456,"text":"第24案那第24案裡面呢就是我們最主要是針對我們中研講堂跟科普講座那因為今年中研講堂只辦了一座那說明是說因為可能有辦這些南部院區開放的活動但是我覺得這個部分呢因為中研講堂的形式我覺得它還是對於它是更深入的我覺得它其實還是蠻有辦的一個必要性所以我希望還是可以持續的來增加那再來是第25案"},{"start":5073.888,"end":5092.643,"text":"第25案呢就是針對於兒童科普日喔那兒童科普日之前我在質詢的時候就有提到說我們12歲以下的小孩然後兒童填寫的問卷實在是太複雜了喔那你們自己也有自己也有說這個當時也有回復說這個內容其實對小朋友來說其實非常難判斷的"},{"start":5093.463,"end":5094.043,"text":"第二十九案"},{"start":5120.68,"end":5138.466,"text":"第29案呢其實是在講實驗室的一個職安檢查那雖然我希望是說目前我們有做一些詳盡的實驗室的檢查那也應該有一些違規類型因為連續幾年下我們應該可以做一些違規類型的大數據分析更了解他們的分類"},{"start":5139.386,"end":5161.349,"text":"好那這個才能夠去對應我們做的演習好職安演習是不是能夠去處理我們面對到這些狀況的時候可以確保我們所有實驗室的工作人員的安全那第二再來是第46案好那第46案的話因為其實剛剛前面已經有做一些詳盡的說明所以這部分我不堅持"},{"start":5163.831,"end":5188.46,"text":"第48案是針對AI工具在台灣文化、歷史分析等人為領域的應用與研究。人文科學是在AI的一個非常重要的角色。它其實是引領了整個AI前進的方向,確保它在研究前進的時候還是有符合一些道德跟倫理的規範。"},{"start":5189.58,"end":5213.459,"text":"所以我在這個部分我只有看到你們告訴我說有一些領域有收到多少的申請書但是我覺得更重要的是這個定期成果的檢討機制是很重要的因為AI的變化實在是太快了我們應該要有一個定期的檢討我們才能知道我們是不是有跟上潮流這個部分是在你們給我說明的上面我是沒有看見的"},{"start":5215.765,"end":5215.966,"text":"第55案有關於"},{"start":5221.414,"end":5249.613,"text":"管控去碳置氫機組與發電機組建置進度我其實當時的提案裡面還有說要確保測試階段可獲得充分且準確之檢探實測數據但是你們給我的報告只有進度我還是看不到檢探實測數據我覺得這才是最重要的一個部分就是我覺得都是進度的控管我覺得我的提案裡面一直在強調我們進度的控管以及檢討可是我覺得這個是我們目前我還沒有看到中研院詳細的說明"},{"start":5251.014,"end":5267.383,"text":"最後一個是第66案就是針對南部縣區我們要如何吸引人才過去因為現在我們可能在餐飲、休閒、住宿等等今天先講第二幕就好這個預算的凍結還是變成主決到時候我們就最後一起討論謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員現在我們請郭育晴委員發言"},{"start":5278.956,"end":5294.463,"text":"好,那我的部分是16案、21案、23案、30案還有40案。好,那我先就這個第16案呢,那我要提就是有鑑於其實之前在我們的中央醫院其實有這個41歲的這個研究員他親生"},{"start":5298.024,"end":5300.847,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":5314.16,"end":5334.195,"text":"但是我們看到其實在這個心靈補給站的專區其實它的更新速度第一它非常的慢今年大概只發了三篇文章都已經到了年底了那這個部分我可能覺得還是要再改進那第21案的部分當然有講到就是說我們的這個中研講堂的部分"},{"start":5335.476,"end":5337.458,"text":"二十三案的部分就是我們講到這個兒童科普日"},{"start":5353.472,"end":5376.777,"text":"剛剛裴宇有特別提到其實這個是要給我們專業院一個肯定這是非法定的一個任務但是我連公車廣告上面都有看到兒童科普日的這個宣傳那我想就是向下扎根也是我們的目標所以這個部分如果要改成主決議其實我也沒有特別的堅持但是希望能夠再針對比方說4到6歲的部分我們可能還有一些更階段性的一些進程"},{"start":5378.971,"end":5399.631,"text":"第30案就是言之有物的一個部分剛剛一直在講說我們的這個科普教育要向下扎根那我想不管是各個學校的一個推廣或相關單位對於所謂的科普的一些不管是書籍也好或者是文章也好甚至有一些這個電子報或者電子的期刊也好我們怎麼樣來增加更多人"},{"start":5400.071,"end":5400.551,"text":"第40案研覽資深學人"},{"start":5427.512,"end":5428.252,"text":"議員﹚完整會議議員﹚完整會議"},{"start":5454.548,"end":5454.769,"text":"陳秀寶委員"},{"start":5468.923,"end":5489.684,"text":"在這一幕裡面我的案子有五個案子分別是22案然後41案、49案、51案以及56案那我先從22案的部分這部分是在學術研究與人才的培育的向下就是行政"},{"start":5490.885,"end":5504.06,"text":"工作的維持那這個部分呢比去比今年的預算呢增加了3億多主要說是說增加在資訊操作維護及資料硬體的這個設備"},{"start":5506.342,"end":5510.524,"text":"中研院這邊有來說明說要滿足學術研究的高速運算我們這些相關的設備是應該要擴充的那的確就是說AI的技術帶動我們科技的浪潮我們相關的這些設備必須要來擴充才能滿足我們研究的需求"},{"start":5522.91,"end":5537.005,"text":"所以這個部分我可以改成主決議我支持你們的預算但是我還是要提醒說中研院近年也遭受大量這些高強度的資安攻擊所以你們在這個部分一定要就是依我們資安法的規定來做好相關的資安的防護"},{"start":5539.209,"end":5555.834,"text":"第41案是辦理人才培育及延攬計劃與國內大學合作培育國際研究生計劃及博士後研究學者培育計劃及延攬資深學員看辦費。但這個成效"},{"start":5560.731,"end":5588.864,"text":"你們也沒有去說明說這個成效跟你們預期做的這個目標那研覽資深人質計畫呢主要是用在學者到中研院任職的時候協助他建立這個研究所所需要的這個設備跟團隊那你們這邊有說明說面對人才市場這個激烈的競爭那就是我們資深的優秀的學者招募不容易所以說才會實質的這個應聘人數是落後的那另外呢博士後的研究學者培育計畫實際上錄取人數也遠低"},{"start":5590.425,"end":5591.907,"text":"總統計劃有9位委員提動節,有2位委員提檢列。"},{"start":5610.467,"end":5612.869,"text":"第49案是學術研究人才培育上下關於"},{"start":5628.75,"end":5636.994,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":5653.541,"end":5653.681,"text":"第51案"},{"start":5681.041,"end":5709.867,"text":"是關於我們這個中研學者計劃我們這個編列了很多的這些預算來供申請人來執行研究計劃但是我們並沒有定一個具體的成果跟量化的目標你們僅以一個說期待我們期待提升我國這個研究的學員的水準啊這種其實很模糊你們也沒有自己自己本身為自己定的這樣子成果的這個量化目標其實很難去說"},{"start":5710.607,"end":5710.747,"text":"閱讀委員會的報告"},{"start":5740.887,"end":5741.027,"text":"第56案"},{"start":5760.818,"end":5765.18,"text":"天然氣驅殘燃氫計劃系統建置。你們在112年有成功地穿接15000瓦的小型商用發電機組。也希望說在4年期中能夠在實際的場域建設測試的機組,將我們整個技術能夠實際來應用。"},{"start":5784.95,"end":5810.58,"text":"但是這個建制其實你們這個建制其實有關後續的我們場域實際的實際的這個發電是不是可以規劃這個進度來測試那你們目前在你們的預算裡面編列你們聘僱的助理人員20人及老健保這個相關的費用2000多萬而且這個跟你們的基礎設備費是沒有關係的就是不是在這個裡面的明細"},{"start":5812.2,"end":5813.34,"text":"謝謝秀寶委員再來我們請林益菁委員"},{"start":5843.613,"end":5867.208,"text":"謝謝主席我的案子是第43案這是討論國際研究生學程我想中研院常年辦理國際研究生學程TIGP 援攬了很多國內外具有潛力的優秀學生來到中研院我們也希望藉由此來培養優秀的學者或是未來國家的學術領導"},{"start":5869.25,"end":5891.489,"text":"我覺得這很肯定這樣的學生計畫那這個計畫申請的人數也越來越多近6年的申請都破了千人可是本席有注意到說這個學生從2002年開辦至今除了前5年的報道率維持在70%、80%左右那其他是很多的年度的報道率都約落在60%"},{"start":5892.89,"end":5915.2,"text":"那2023的報道率也僅有67%那我的提案當然是希望說能改善這個招生的相關的作為那增加被錄取學生來實際報到就讀的意願也希望說可以維持這個報道率維持在75%以上那中研院來跟本辦說明的時候有提到說今年的報道率有來到80%了"},{"start":5917.361,"end":5917.461,"text":"吳佩儀委員"},{"start":5935.18,"end":5960.883,"text":"我的提案的一個28案主要是我看到我們在明年度的預算當中一般事務費、房屋建築養護費、設施及機械設備養護費這一個比去年、今年度我增加了是將近一倍啦但是因為之前我在預算書裡面沒有看到詳細的說明那中央又後來有來提供說明我看了一下主要就是有關於我們有一些專利的維護費"},{"start":5962.344,"end":5963.505,"text":"議員提出的動結數是150萬……"},{"start":5987.889,"end":6004.488,"text":"這個請中委員提供報告之後使得動之再來第35案主要關心的是我們中研院我們有現在是24個研究所跟這個研究中心那其中每一年度我們總務處都有就環安"},{"start":6006.149,"end":6032.404,"text":"來進行這個訪試那目前看起來112年度的缺失項目比111年度是有下降一些從6成降到4成但是呢目前我們訪試的297間研究室裡面仍然是有133間是有缺失的這已經將近是三分之一所以我認為這個絕對是要來強化改善而且速度要再加快那這個"},{"start":6034.525,"end":6059.699,"text":"等會可能要再進行說明那再來是58案是有關於我們中研院的淨零科技研發計畫那這個計畫我基本上就是非常的支持那希望我們後續的這個進行要能夠確實這樣所以這一案我是提議我就要改成主決議文所以等會也再跟主席進行討論好謝謝"},{"start":6061.776,"end":6088.187,"text":"好,謝謝吳佩儀委員。再來我們請柯志文委員發言。好,我現在是提出第42案跟第57案。那第42案我想剛剛非常多委員非常的關切。大家還是在討論到底有沒有辦法留得住人才。那這是我在執行的時候已經就教育院長了,特別是以TIGP為例。你要吸引國際人才,結果今年相關的人才畢業後留在台灣大概就只有22人,比往年都還要差了。"},{"start":6089.487,"end":6107.556,"text":"議案成效我自己在學術界我很清楚就國科會教育部同步都推動類似的補助的這個影響變成國內的學術單位都彼此在相互的互打互想人才所以我認為相關部會說實在這個是這個當然不能全部都歸於這個中研院但是我還是認為應該做一些"},{"start":6108.797,"end":6137.312,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6137.392,"end":6164.241,"text":"那你要來進行這樣的投資還是要受到法規的一個限制而且這也是要牽涉到經濟部的一個權責所以我覺得這個部分鼓勵中研院能夠進一步的研議然後法規的鬆綁的問題所以我同意把它改成組決議因為如果只是凍結我覺得對這個計劃方案一點幫助都沒有就改成組決議遮成一種期待吧好謝謝柯志恩委員再來我們請葉元芝委員發言葉元芝委員發言完之後我們先休息10分鐘"},{"start":6169.382,"end":6185.252,"text":"我這邊三期案有關於人才培育及延攬計畫中要延攬資深的學術人才的這個部分但因為那個中研院他有給我們一個初步的說明但那個初步的說明我覺得過於抽象比如說他講說有的是為什麼會招攬"},{"start":6187.073,"end":6214.155,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6214.855,"end":6234.34,"text":"因為這個執行的狀況實在是不好啦所以我們可以就是從檢列100萬到檢列50萬那凍結部分是希望說可以針對問題提出一個比較具體的解除的方案告訴大家說到底要怎麼執行執行率才能達成你們的目標好不好希望就是給我們的報告可以再具體一點謝謝"},{"start":6238.706,"end":6248.016,"text":"議員發言完畢,我們先休息10分鐘,待會休息完就吳春成委員先發言,然後再羅廷偉、萬美玲、葛如軍,然後就請中業院回應。"},{"start":6269.16,"end":6269.741,"text":"議員﹚發言人"},{"start":6288.672,"end":6299.816,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":6320.404,"end":6330.194,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":7119.823,"end":7139.875,"text":"好那我們會繼續喔那因為范委員有一些事情會延遲一些些所以有本席先來代主席一下那我們再來就來請吳春城委員發言好謝謝主席那個台灣民眾黨啊主張理性物質科學所以我們對學術"},{"start":7141.829,"end":7166.77,"text":"是非常尊重的所以對於其他的像一般行政的預算甚至招待所、卡拉OK我們都沒意見但是呢我們有意見的是我的案子在45案跟那個31案當中主要的想要表示的是"},{"start":7168.971,"end":7191.886,"text":"中央研究院是做國家最高的智庫。現在呢,我要想當胡適之在當中央研究院的時候,中央研究院代表的是什麼?代表的是我們學術的獨立、自由、人文精神,是嗎?"},{"start":7193.612,"end":7214.668,"text":"不只是一個工作單位不只是一個上班那你跟一般大學有何差異他是一座燈塔他是一座燈塔包括他引領社會的運動社會的運動然後呢做一些理性"},{"start":7216.223,"end":7242.852,"text":"不要讓我們的學術界成為一個我上禮拜在審查考試院的公聽會的時候就講現在公務人員最大的問題就叫平庸之惡我們很容易淪以平庸配合體制作為一個體制當中的響應者中央研究院存在的目的就是要抵抗這個東西因為我們一般人太容易這樣了"},{"start":7244.775,"end":7257.907,"text":"在我們的政府單位在我們的學術單位中央研究院應該要去堅持這個啦那所以呢我在這裡第45案當中主要談的是"},{"start":7259.454,"end":7274.602,"text":"我們現在整個的學校研究單位都是重理科輕人文甚至就是說這一個"},{"start":7276.212,"end":7298.21,"text":"所以在這裡我要提出的就是目前我們中央研究院對人文上面的一個重視也社會科學人文的部分也都不足所以希望能夠在這一方面來補足另外在31案"},{"start":7300.293,"end":7312.203,"text":"三十一案裡面我剛才提到了中央研究院要成為一個社會的領頭羊胡適之推動了很多的社會的運動新文化運動還有整個的"},{"start":7316.306,"end":7342.755,"text":"一些堅持的立場那我一直在推動的就是高齡社會我已經在諮詢講過很多次超高齡社會來臨台灣未來30年最重要的就是人口的天翻地覆最影響的層面遍及的所有的部分不管教育、經濟甚至國防每一個"},{"start":7343.973,"end":7367.118,"text":"每一個社會福利這都是非常極大的衝擊而中央研究院竟然在這方面的研究負之缺乳負之缺乳我上次諮詢院長說我們中央研究院這一方面的人才不足缺乏研究人口學缺乏研究這一方面到底未來高齡社會我經常在談高齡社會"},{"start":7370.953,"end":7394.373,"text":"到底是一個悲慘世界還是一個美麗新世界如果你認為它是悲慘世界你就會提出悲慘的處方目前我們都是這樣子衛福部在提了啦每一個在提了說這個要破產那個快要結束了所以都在急救都在把高零社會當作一個已經快要斷氣的一個運用方案"},{"start":7395.273,"end":7413.223,"text":"那就提出這樣子啊。為什麼?因為他們沒有高上層的思維。他們只有方案直接的處方的處理。處方監。中央研究院就是架構這個啊。如果你把它認為它是一個美麗新世界,你提出的處方就不一樣。"},{"start":7415.017,"end":7433.407,"text":"未來人口一半都超過60歲高齡那樣是一個什麼社會那樣的社會形態的政治經濟社會文化到底應該長什麼樣子這不就是一個非常大的學術主題嗎就中央研究院完全負之缺乳台灣這個問題不是說沒關係啊全世界沒有人在做啊"},{"start":7434.232,"end":7456.425,"text":"台灣這問題是全世界最嚴重我們跑在全世界的第一名就像昨天的棒球不要小看台灣覺得我們都是永遠尾隨人家的我們還是可以得冠軍的我們還是可以第一名的我們中央醫院也可以稱為世界學術的領先的殿堂就是你要不要你要做一些你的問題的研究這屬於我們自己的問題"},{"start":7457.265,"end":7468.74,"text":"所以我在這裡也希望大家的支持我先包括這個就科普啦如果這個沒有相關做的這一句話我要凍結五百萬請大家的支持謝謝謝謝吳春城委員再我們請羅廷瑋委員發言"},{"start":7478.609,"end":7502.142,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席我想大家都很討論這幾個項目齁那我自己對於這個這次的學術研究人才培育齁編列46億點2000多萬的這一筆費用齁那個天然氣去碳燃金我想跟院長也有在討論過齁那混金發電這個部分呢我們還是希望齁淨寧碳排我們大家都非常的期待"},{"start":7502.842,"end":7518.988,"text":"在這一次我想在我們的質詢當中院長也有跟我表示天然氣機組仍是有空污的當然我們因為近期有中火的一個因素有6個燃氣機組跟燃煤機組變相擴敞"},{"start":7523.189,"end":7546.974,"text":"我們希望還是能夠爭取天然氣去碳燃金這個特別的一個技術能夠在台中我想這個本試驗計畫未納入到中火為實驗場域想再問一下這個院長有沒有考慮台中在這邊設置那有沒有相關的一個計畫是不是在這個部分上能夠給我一個回應我想這邊先凍結200萬也希望能夠得到一個善意的回應為台中來爭取"},{"start":7548.174,"end":7554.539,"text":"那我想因為這個新的技術齁那我覺得這個是我們很期待的一件事情好院長謝謝羅廷威委員齁再來請萬美玲委員"},{"start":7564.209,"end":7579.119,"text":"謝謝主席我這邊有四個案子第一個是第20案第20案其實剛才有說明過對於這個宿舍的部分剛剛有做了一個解釋剛剛副院長私底下也有再跟我提過我想這個部分我可以接受不過呢"},{"start":7580.02,"end":7607.978,"text":"我覺得我們還是看一下因為這個在基本行政工作維持費11億那真的是有做了一個很大幅的成長當然這個成長不管是在資訊房屋養護或者設備等等可是好像還是沒有辦法詳細的知道為什麼做這麼大幅的成長所以來做預算說明的時候其實本席當時是有講說那我們就是動3000萬然後給你們自己去調整那大概這個等一下說明完以後我們可以看看怎麼來處理"},{"start":7609.319,"end":7618.866,"text":"二十七案做預算說明的時候有講得比較清楚我想這個就改組決議有沒有意見我們看一下三十八案"},{"start":7620.444,"end":7644.174,"text":"三十八案的部分這個是在這個預算的向下總共有六個子計畫那這個子計畫我們可以看一下我也把這個表有列出來但是呢我們發現在一百一十二年的時候我們只有人文講座這一個計畫有達到我們自己這個預設的標準值那剩下的五項計畫都沒有那來到一百一十三年就算到七月看起來"},{"start":7644.614,"end":7644.754,"text":"第54宗案"},{"start":7666.451,"end":7675.322,"text":"午時四案的時候其實本期在質詢的時候有提過那現在我們因為要跟台電有一個合作的一個計劃不過這個計劃四年的計劃經費其實達到十億那目前看起來其實即便是本期質詢完以後我們這個詳細的那個內容"},{"start":7684.674,"end":7685.915,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算"},{"start":7701.442,"end":7722.228,"text":"好 謝謝萬美玲委員再來葛如軍委員發言好 謝謝先回應一下剛剛張雅玲委員有提到AI的計畫我其實也是echo這個金國先生曾經講過這個有些事情今天不做明天就會後悔我們在預算的安排上面"},{"start":7723.008,"end":7739.411,"text":"請問不要是今天不做今天會後悔的事要去安排今天不做今天不排明天會後悔的事情所以我想這個我們來echo一下那我今天提的是這個案53其實這個去但然清剛剛柯委員跟羅委員也都有提到"},{"start":7740.012,"end":7756.128,"text":"但這個案子其實很可能就是今天不做明天可能也不會後悔的事其實我們第53案是我們這個去代燃金發電系統的研發經費那我本席認為由於我國目前的非核家園的政策目標一直還未正式的改變"},{"start":7757.329,"end":7780.289,"text":"隨著河山廠有可能要除役當然我們是以一個嚴議的態度但是如果真的除役了我們將可能會面臨缺電的危機當然每一種新興發電的方式的研發只要符合國情我們都認為值得嘗試接下來有幾個地方可能還是要請待會院長有機會的話可以來回應首先就是假設去代燃輕發電研發成功有真的要作為我國主要的發電方式嗎?"},{"start":7781.67,"end":7785.052,"text":"如果不能,那到底要把它做成幾層?"},{"start":7785.052,"end":7787.634,"text":"不然聽起來它好像很fancy可是它真的適合台灣的國情嗎?"},{"start":7789.875,"end":7813.228,"text":"因為這個去氮燃金我們的理解是它需要的天然氣的量其實是比過去的方法要來得更高的因為它的發電的效率它的這個轉換率其實會因為它把它變成固體碳它有可能需要更多的天然氣所以它的去氮燃金的發電成本很可能會是目前發電成本的兩倍這個有符合我們的國情嗎另外前面也提到我們的天然氣高達99%是進口的"},{"start":7816.61,"end":7821.116,"text":"目前為了運輸大量的天然氣規劃了三階、四階還有五階、六階才夠用對我們海岸線的天然地形的破壞、沿岸海洋生態的破壞其實會讓人擔憂的那我們中研院如果只是作為測試只是作為技術的研發又沒有要實際的來採型"},{"start":7834.974,"end":7854.155,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7854.275,"end":7876.343,"text":"但是聚氮燃氣的發電技術其實要產生是會固體的碳它不能算作綠能它只能結成潔淨能源所以對於緩解我們的綠能缺乏的問題也沒有幫助那當然本席最擔心的問題還有可能跟地緣的這個狀態有關說呢一旦這個近期有這個消息指出"},{"start":7876.983,"end":7905.929,"text":"一旦共軍真的包圍台灣美國可能要到第四周才有可能馳援那根據之前經濟部長前經濟部長王美花的說法台灣天然氣的存量可能只有11天那如果天然氣的補給船沒有辦法來的話你去探燃清你需要的天然氣又比以前更高你發電的成本也更高那你需求更高那你可能你的儲備量可能只剩下更少啊那中研院其實還有很多其他的專案可能有太陽能有海洋能可能還有地熱"},{"start":7907.129,"end":7933.75,"text":"那是不是乾脆就整理一下我們這個真的是適合我們的國情的嗎我們其實真的是希望呼籲謹慎能源的研發資源啦這個做最有效率的配置那所以呢我覺得所有的研發做新能源我們都支持但是呢一定要先講求不傷身體再來講求功效所以預算的部分我是希望能夠與部分凍結以上謝謝"},{"start":7935.63,"end":7938.734,"text":"謝謝盧君委員再來洪孟楷委員請發言盧君委員先講不傷身體再講到功效還以為是來到慰安慰勇會不過確實啦每一個委員在這一個科目裡面"},{"start":7958.075,"end":7976.393,"text":"主要都是這個人才培育及相關的學術研究的部分那本席這邊有提兩個案一個是33案一個是39案我想之前雖然中研院這邊有跟本席這邊來溝通過可是我還是要再一次呼應一下尤其是第39案我覺得"},{"start":7977.694,"end":7992.802,"text":"看一下38案萬美齡委員這邊有列出來的這表喔其實也是預算中心之前所編列那其實我想也可能要請我們中研院這邊再回應一下在資深學人的部分112年目標值是10"},{"start":7995.003,"end":8011.133,"text":"那113年目標值也是10,114年目標值也是10可是實際的達成的狀況其實是沒有達到這樣的狀況那是不是有檢討的一個必要而不是每一次都是照本宣科來編列那博士後研究學者培育計畫100,112年93"},{"start":8015.526,"end":8036.466,"text":"一百一三年也是一百但只有七十九一百一四年又再一百我們想說人才培育我們絕對不會反對我們要凍結預算也是希望能夠push跟金淨中研院能夠做到達成屬於自己的目標你有一些目標是有實際達到超前的那你要再"},{"start":8037.312,"end":8062.739,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8062.839,"end":8062.939,"text":"以上,謝謝"},{"start":8084.526,"end":8102.046,"text":"謝謝黃孟楷委員那海毛委員要針對這一幕發言那如果沒有我就快速講我的兩個我的第18案跟第19案18案關於中央研究院院士行為準則裡面的增訂我們蠻肯定的但是並沒有"},{"start":8102.346,"end":8128.814,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8129.134,"end":8146.966,"text":"第19案是因為中研有非常多的數位資料庫跟平台譬如說數位文化中心因為有學者反應希望這些資料庫能夠整合我們經過了解之後覺得中研院也應該要率先做整合而且未來"},{"start":8148.007,"end":8148.167,"text":"吳佩儀委員要補充"},{"start":8176.074,"end":8192.772,"text":"我想要補充一下就是呼應剛剛吳春晨委員31案的提案就是中研院的研資有物科普平台我也是很支持說應該要加強讓壯士代族群能夠來閱讀不過我跨了一下因為你們的受眾設定是國高中生以上"},{"start":8193.412,"end":8215.801,"text":"目前最主要在閱讀的族群是45到54歲所以其實可能國高中生這其他族群的這個閱讀的加強怎麼樣的這個通路管道我覺得也可以來持續的加強另外是無障礙閱讀界面這個對長輩來說也是非常重要所以明年是否有相關的計畫來去把它提升這一點"},{"start":8216.201,"end":8216.421,"text":"中央委員"},{"start":8237.472,"end":8260.829,"text":"秘書處處長曾國祥首先先針對陳培宇委員關於科普活動的主責單位那麼經過上次質詢之後呢院長回去已經立即責陳秘書處進行進步的規劃秘書處目前根據我們自己內部的組織業務能力正在做調配那麼我們一定會往這個方向努力一定會去彰顯這個科普活動的重要性透過我們組織的重新架構"},{"start":8262.43,"end":8278.376,"text":"關於張雅玲委員特別謝謝委員蓋斯底下的兩個指示首先第一個中央獎堂原來的設定確實就有考量到教育資源的平等以及是為了高中生為主所以這個活動我們不但會繼續辦然後會把它辦得更好更精"},{"start":8279.857,"end":8295.547,"text":"關於兒童的問卷問題確實我們現在的問卷主要是針對父母然而兒童是主體設計兒童問卷這是一個專業我們已經跟人事中心的調查研究中心有一個討論我們下一次開始會特別針對兒童的議題來設計一套回饋的機制"},{"start":8299.79,"end":8322.677,"text":"接下來關於郭育琴委員的這個三個指示那我大概也是簡短回答首先關於中央講堂我剛才提過因為他不會流於形式我們會持續的去精進那麼至於加強4到6歲的兒童科普活動我們也會遵照辦理那麼事實上我們現在已經有大概125場的活動是親子互動的那我們會持續往這方面繼續的努力"},{"start":8323.537,"end":8344.864,"text":"再來言之有物事實上我們除了人文跟生命科學之外我們今年也剛剛出版了這個我們這個這個這個數理組的專書而且是取了一個很棒的書名叫做格物窮理那這個書剛剛出來那預計在下禮拜以前應該也都可以把這個書呢樣書送到各位委員的辦公室"},{"start":8346.241,"end":8374.659,"text":"再來吳泉委員的兩個指教大概這樣非常謝謝你提到就我完全同意你就是說你贏了這個鄂蘭的平庸的邪惡那你也提到現在很多人都只是在體制內做一個聽話的這個這個這個小螺絲釘那我們一定會秉持胡適之先生的精神就是說在未來的科普教育上一定會更去加強整個社會的自由的精神以及批判反思的這樣的一個態度那麼除此之外更重要當然這跟這個吳佩儀委員也提到了就確實"},{"start":8375.62,"end":8397.094,"text":"我們現在科普活動比較沒有去著重在55歲以上的壯世代那麼一方面在網路的無障礙方面我們一定會持續的努力二方面我們也會針對壯世代更重視的議題包括比如說很重要的數位落差那根據這些議題我們會設計更好的科普活動以及強化我們的科普的宣傳的管道"},{"start":8397.894,"end":8421.306,"text":"最後主席所提到的院士行為準則如同主席所提到的因為上次諮詢之後我們已經針對五個民主國家的科學院的如果有違反行為準則的相關處理機制進行討論我們會在12月30日以前提出報告那麼以上的案子非常謝謝如果委員同意的話建請委員同意我們改成主決議以上謝謝"},{"start":8426.716,"end":8446.681,"text":"總務處處長報告針對張雅玲委員跟吳佩儀委員剛剛提到有關於中研院的實驗室訪視的部分兩個部分一部分吳委員提到的是缺失比例的部分那我們認為計算上面可能用缺失的項目去處理總檢查的項目得到的數字可能會比較更為真實更合理這樣除起來的話112年的缺失應該是2.78"},{"start":8449.562,"end":8478.095,"text":"我們113年今年已經做了我們的缺失大概只有2.58%這些缺失項目都是一個禮拜內就全部改善的部分都還算是算是比較好我們還是會持續的去精進那張委員提到說這些缺失應該把它分類我們會把它分類而且我們每年會在我們的環安衛委員會裡面大會裡面做報告向全院所有中心的代表做說明交流讓大家知道缺失如何改善這有關於實驗室訪試的部分向兩位委員報告"},{"start":8480.477,"end":8499.034,"text":"萬委員提到的部分是我們11億的經費裡面有成長那裡面特別您剛剛提到的是這裡面成長的經費有兩個部分一部分是資訊的軟硬體的部分另外一部分是房屋修繕跟設備機器的部分有關於房屋跟設備機器的部分"},{"start":8500.115,"end":8506.723,"text":"這個大部分都是一次性修繕我們在113年是編了的費用是比較低114年總共編了2億那比113年多了8000多萬那主要是幾個部分第一個"},{"start":8514.773,"end":8515.033,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8544.95,"end":8567.919,"text":"委員好 我是資訊服務處陳林志處長我想針對剛剛陳秀寶委員還有萬美玲委員提到的有關資訊轉硬體的部分這部分確實我們是針對現在AI運算的大量的需求因為這兩年變化非常的快我們盤點院內目前相關的這些相關硬體可能沒辦法去支援全院的這種AI的轉型"},{"start":8569.019,"end":8593.473,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":8595.723,"end":8613.079,"text":"委員好,國際處報告。那我想針對兩個方向跟各位委員說明。第一個是跟所有跟學生相關的這個人才培育的方案。那這邊有陳亞林委員的15案、陳秀寶委員的41案、柯昇委員42案、林一吉委員43案。"},{"start":8614.66,"end":8631.736,"text":"還有萬美林委員的38案那我想就一併來說明那中央院的這個學生的人才培育總共有三大項一個是國際研究生那另外一個是與國內大學合辦的國內博士班學生的培育那第三個是我們今年新增的"},{"start":8632.697,"end":8633.978,"text":"章亞林委員有提到我們的目標值是什麼?我們現在目標值是140位。"},{"start":8652.995,"end":8672.791,"text":"那這個主要是受限於我們的國際研究生的宿舍我們目前的這棟宿舍它能夠容納的學生的人數應該是140位那這個不只是預算上的限制還有硬體上的限制所以我們會朝這個目標值來前進那過去幾年平均每年都是收120位左右所以我們還有一些空間我們就會往140人前進"},{"start":8674.792,"end":8697.548,"text":"好幾位委員都提到今年的成效比較卓著的原因是什麼我想最主要應該就是我們獎學金的加碼方案因為今年院長提出這樣子的方案所以我們立即就讓博士生他在每個月領到的錢可以在第二年提升六千從第三年開始到他第五年結束每個月提升一萬六"},{"start":8698.368,"end":8724.56,"text":"所以這個顯然是非常明確的增加我們在國際研究生的報名人數今年我們有2400多人來報名跟去年1600多人比起來已經有顯著的增加所以這個我們會持續來推動各位委員也有關心到我們如何留住人才現在有幾個方案第一個是我們除了把人才留在學界之外我們也開始讓他們銜接到台灣的業界"},{"start":8726.56,"end":8750.225,"text":"現在業界需求的人才也非常地多我們也開始來做一些跟業界之間的對接另外就是跟國發會一起來推動這個就業金卡的宣導尤其是國際生他們現在對就業金卡的了解還不是非常多我們今年也請國發會的同仁來院內跟國際生來宣導這樣的事情這一點我們會持續推動"},{"start":8754.322,"end":8769.899,"text":"萬委員有提到其中有一個成效不是非常理想的就是跟國內大學合辦的這個本國級的學生的培育計畫那這一邊我想現在碰到的問題也是我們跟業界的對接還不是做得非常理想"},{"start":8770.9,"end":8785.569,"text":"學生對於他未來下一步要怎麼走,我們還沒有做非常好的宣導,所以這一點我們會持續來精進,盡量能夠讓一些在我們這邊念完博士的學生他可以銜接到業界去工作,這個我們明年會強化這個計畫。"},{"start":8790.111,"end":8815.012,"text":"吳春成委員有特別提到人文社會博士生的培育計畫今年我們開始這個新案已經招了16名精英博士生進來明年我們還會持續去各大學推動讓更多學生知道有這個方案持續來申請我們會再盡量增加在審查上面跟招生之間的橫平性"},{"start":8817.974,"end":8837.155,"text":"所以這是跟人才培育相關的一些回應。外媒委員還有提到第20案,其實第20案的修繕牽涉到的是TIGP,就是國際研究生的宿舍。我們的確是有編了一個3000萬一次性的修繕,那個主要是因為這棟樓已經20年。"},{"start":8838.736,"end":8864.643,"text":"外牆現在有些剝落的情況所以必須要有這筆經費來維護它的外牆那每年有150萬的內部的修繕經費那這個就是例行性要整理一些內部的這種漏水啊這一些東西所以我想這兩筆經費應該是沒有重複編列那在這邊跟委員說明那我想我先說明到這邊那還有另外一案是顧議員特別提到的關懷中心第16案"},{"start":8865.703,"end":8892.954,"text":"第16案的回應現在是這樣子就是我們關懷中心有三位專職的行李師還有三位特約行李師那他們每年負責的諮商個案其實大概都超過1300件所以過去的確人力上面是蠻緊縮的那跟委員討論的時候其實有特別提醒到我們會增加人員的編制所以現在已經在招募一位社工師那應該這個禮拜五我們就會面試"},{"start":8894.395,"end":8894.415,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8921.342,"end":8938.675,"text":"學術處,我來補充一下人才培育研覽計畫裡面第一個先跟大家報告一下博士後研究學者培育計畫我們每年定大概都是定100人左右但是事實上中研院裡面的博士研究的學者大概每年有700多人"},{"start":8939.434,"end":8956.788,"text":"那在這個計畫呢是一個比較特別我們是主要是挑選比較優秀的然後給他們特殊的一個title那並不是說我們沒有在培養我們事實上每年大概有700多位只是這個向下的我們是第100位不是大家來都有"},{"start":8957.689,"end":8977.26,"text":"再來跟大家說明一下這個延攬資深學人。這個主要我們真的是用來延攬大部分都是所長跟我們資深的特聘研究員。這些人如果延攬到了之後,他們的薪水就會到各所中心去變成人事費,就不會用到這筆錢了。"},{"start":8981.422,"end":9002.296,"text":"這筆經費主要是用來支援這些所長們回來以後他們要設立他們的實驗室他們要開展新的所務等等相關需要使用的經費是在這裡跟大家說明一下然後剛剛張委員有提到還有各位有提到跟AI相關的倫理道德規範等等"},{"start":9003.317,"end":9027.194,"text":"我們院裡面現在成立了一個AI的這個推動辦公室那裡面有一個AI風險小組那這個風險小組呢我們有開會在討論在將來這些AI的計畫不管是個別的計畫或者是院裡面推動的我們都會做一些倫理道德規範的這些討論然後將來可能會設置一些規範"},{"start":9034.376,"end":9049.797,"text":"我們明年,我們現在正在摳一個AI在人物與自然科學相關的一個計畫,這些計畫將來我們也是每年會請這些拿到計畫的研究員提出報告,我們也會在他們的報告裡面做審視。"},{"start":9051.559,"end":9078.03,"text":"然後有委員提到有關中研學者的部分那去年是我們辦的第一屆今年是第二屆那因為這些中研學者我們是希望鼓勵臺灣的中生代的研究員所以我們老師們我們設的目標是他不能超過55歲他不能超過55歲然後我們是開放給全國大專院校那去年呢"},{"start":9079.91,"end":9107.997,"text":"院外的總共有4位獲選為中研學者然後每年給他大概有足夠的經費然後可以維持5年那所以這個我們沒有寫一開始沒有寫很明確的這個標準說怎麼審核因為不同領域的可能審核的標準會不一樣那也是等到今年以後往年我們每年都會請他們寫他們的進度報告那我們也要從裡面來看看"},{"start":9109.357,"end":9129.272,"text":"我們大概沒辦法寫說他每年要發表什麼樣的paper等等但是我們會以因為這個我們每年就只有選3到5名那所以標準是很高那這些院裡面會找院內外的學術專家形成這個審查的小組來做這個規範這樣子以上說明"},{"start":9134.13,"end":9154.004,"text":"不好意思,科委員我剛要補充一下那個42案的回應,就是科委員有提到我們現在有眾議院的這個獎學金加碼計畫,有國科會的、有教育部的,那事實上這三項計畫支持的學生是不同屬性的學生,所以其實目前並沒有跌穿價物的情況。"},{"start":9154.984,"end":9176.81,"text":"因為中央研究院的經費其實不可能支持到在大學就讀的學生所以在大學就讀的博士生他們原則上就會去申請國科會或者是教育部的錢那我們這邊如果拿到中央研究院的經費的話他們就不會再去擠壓到國科會跟教育部的錢所以我們在區分上面是有一開始就明確的設計好那這點請委員放心"},{"start":9179.707,"end":9208.058,"text":"好 那針對 你們還有 眾議院還沒講完是吧對 還沒有主席 各位委員我是環變中心永續中心陳玉高我來特別為了這個剛才幾位委員垂詢的天然氣 氣氛燃氣的這個百萬瓦級的基礎建置的這個案子 總共有10案這個案子行政院對項目已經核定過了所以我們現在編列預算正在審議中所以在我們的預算書裡面那它的"},{"start":9209.719,"end":9213.501,"text":"臺電負責發電機的部分,我們負責去碳燃氣的前面的機組的部分大概簡單跟大家報告是這樣的一個情況"},{"start":9237.073,"end":9255.606,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":9256.026,"end":9260.51,"text":"議員：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":9270.937,"end":9296.997,"text":"另外設備呢一億六千萬是因為除了我們自己有七八項的設備包括電漿電源供應器火炬系統集團設備增壓設備這幾大項我們需要自行研製需要逐項去採購設備然後彼此之間還有很多的不確定性在裡面所以還沒有很細的細節而且還因為採購的關係我們還可能還"},{"start":9300.379,"end":9324.509,"text":"不容易告訴大家現在廠商是哪一家但是呢事實上有八九項已經都編列在預算書裡面了這個今年的預算是這樣那又有委員問說我們跟台電的這個分配是如何TOTAL齊成四年十億綜藝院呢是用四億來研發我們的去碳燃氣的機組那台電呢是用六億去購置一個5.4MW的這個"},{"start":9328.891,"end":9344.125,"text":"燃氣發電機組然後他在做介面設施我們再把它配合起來這個是total期程是4年那第一年呢台電還不需要經費所以在編列的時候呢今年編的2億呢都是眾議院來開發我們區攤燃金機組來使用的"},{"start":9351.751,"end":9363.237,"text":"閣委員非常關心這些他成功的會是會供應我國有多少的這個電力那是不是會造成天然氣會要更多"},{"start":9364.398,"end":9391.38,"text":"我們反過來思考我國現在這麼多選項全部加起來其實還蠻勉強的那每一個選項在眾議院的政策建議書的角度裡面都希望不要放棄而且我們不可以預期的是未來10年20年的科技是不是可以幫我們做得更好這一部分眾議院希望說在每一個項目上都能夠現在就開始投入"},{"start":9391.96,"end":9401.069,"text":"既然要現在開始投入呢院長特別指示不是只有學界自己做所以我們每一個項目呢都跟業界一起"},{"start":9403.362,"end":9423.497,"text":"一起合作所以像這個去碳燃氣這個案子特別是跟台電就直接簽了MOU從小型的到中型的到大型的現階段這個機組其實是中型的5.4M 其實大家知道在台電的燃氣機組在廠房裡面都是500M"},{"start":9424.258,"end":9426.941,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":9436.926,"end":9457.017,"text":"到中火到這個通宵都已經考慮過了我們希望在他們換新機組的時候我們可以把我們的機組再放到100倍直接進去那為什麼這一次呢臺電選擇是是直接在興達因為興達有一個系統呢是他去年做好的就是混金系統"},{"start":9457.637,"end":9457.757,"text":"另外﹐"},{"start":9483.413,"end":9494.066,"text":"張委員問到說檢探的數據很抱歉我們沒有寫得太詳細我可以這邊簡單的說一下假如說我們現在所有的燃氣機組到了10%的混氣發電的話我們大概可以減少15個百萬噸的"},{"start":9501.073,"end":9518.698,"text":"二氧化碳排放,每年排放286,也就是差不多10%,如果是20%的話就會到30%,但是這個需要中型的完成之後,到大型再去部件的時候才會有這個數據出來,現階段還只是在技術開發的階段。"},{"start":9527.308,"end":9551.179,"text":"繼轉是不是直接給台電這個是現在的技術台電還不能直接用所以我們需要一起來合作開發到比較大型的機組所以將來這個技術會是台電跟中央醫院共同擁有那至於怎麼分配那將來我們做到一個程度之後呢月底的製裁處會跟台電來談這件事情我們就會比較明確的再來跟委員報告"},{"start":9552.92,"end":9573.319,"text":"還有科委問到法規我們也有一個計畫專門在研議說這個技術在佈建的過程中間到底會有碰到一些什麼樣的法規的困難那我們也列出了一些現階段我們知道的這個我們會把它寫在報告裡面我想就報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":9574.895,"end":9599.657,"text":"好 謝謝中研院各單位就是非常清楚的報告那有柯之恩跟張雅玲委員要補充一下不好意思大家報告非常的清楚但是國際社會還是沒有辦法幫我解決我的疑問我覺得你用書面的方法特別是你提出的這個報告我是以TIGP為例你還是沒有辦法解釋為什麼我們留台的人數跟過去幾年來說是比較少的"},{"start":9602.159,"end":9618.985,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":9618.985,"end":9621.547,"text":"我相信如果任何的博士生當然都會到中研院可是你也會擠壓了其他"},{"start":9644.621,"end":9673.172,"text":"教育部是最在這裡面所提出來的部分其實是最跟綜藝運比起來畢竟你們有一個很好的研究的團隊所以我還是要反駁其實它還是有互相焊隔的那這個部分裡面因為我們時間太多了是不是可以請事後到我辦公室或者是用書面的方法來呈現這個部分我是剛剛從你的解釋當中並沒有讓我覺得可以說服我的好不好這部分就書面後續書面再跟科委員說明那張雅琳委員"},{"start":9675.978,"end":9701.388,"text":"好,我想要針對研覽資深學員的部分喔,因為剛剛講說是那個定,我覺得我們最大的癥結點跟紅委員都在講,你定10個可是你諮詢率只有到3個,那這個問題到底是什麼?好,因為你每年都定10個嘛,剛剛我只有聽到你說什麼這是所長的緣額,可是你每年都是要招10個嗎?這是我的最大的疑問。第二個就是說,我們的就業金卡剛剛是說因為學生都不是很了解啊,說沒有請國發會啊,子學來去做宣導。"},{"start":9702.108,"end":9715.261,"text":"那我就想要了解那是不是可以定期的去追蹤我們宣導之後到底有多少人來申請有多少人成功那我們才知道是不是我們現在這個就業基金卡根本沒有吸引力好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":9718.164,"end":9744.533,"text":"還有吳佩儀委員我的提案58案感謝剛剛我們這個環境保健中心陳主任詳細的說明那去年泰蘭青是我們國家非常重大的中研院跟台電合作的計畫那原先因為你們在說明當中說行政院還在做審議階段剛剛陳主任是說已經合定通過了所以我要把我的這個凍結案就是改為主決議文"},{"start":9746.013,"end":9769.094,"text":"然後要非常的支持你們因為我想所有的研究發展這個沒有說一開始就保證百分之百跟棒球比賽一樣啦勝利不可能一開始保證百分之百但是一定要投入投入我們才有可能成功所以請你們也要好好加油務必要努力達到我們的目標謝謝OK我問一下剛剛佩玉委員講的是28案還是58案要改成主決議58是嗎?好謝謝"},{"start":9771.978,"end":9775.659,"text":"那再來黑盟委員要那個回第二輪那個羅廷文委員"},{"start":9781.394,"end":9802.435,"text":"好,謝謝您的回應,但是坦白講我覺得各位委員所提到的這個部分的疑慮跟擔憂我們也可以一起納入,不是說我們不支持計畫,我們會支持計畫但是這些疑慮我們也希望在未來這個計畫在推廣當中是不是一定要考量到相關的一些疑慮能不能去做一個解釋,或者是讓我們能夠去有具體的一個配套方案"},{"start":9803.215,"end":9821.074,"text":"我還是要跟院長再一次請託因為我覺得你是整個行政院甚至是總統直屬他的大腦你給總統能源政策的一些建議他可能會更願意去傾聽我在這次的諮詢當中我發現你是一個很務實的"},{"start":9824.497,"end":9846.397,"text":"我還是要再次的拜託不管是放大剛剛說的幾倍那既然去碳燃金能夠比天然氣這個部分來的直接燃燒可能會所排放的這個空污更少或者是相關的這些計畫我們既然要支持的話是不是在未來現在看到新達已經有這樣子的試驗它是中小型的嘛對不對"},{"start":9847.958,"end":9870.856,"text":"中火現在已經在做燃氣機組的一個部件二期的一個部件已經開始了那這些部件是持續的在有這個工程是不是能夠把一些燃氣機組換成去碳燃金我覺得這個部分是不是能夠去做一個研議既然已經要做燃氣機組了然後能夠用到這個去碳燃金的機組來取代天然氣的機組"},{"start":9871.817,"end":9871.877,"text":"議員：一、繼續審查"},{"start":9893.268,"end":9906.596,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":9907.94,"end":9929.188,"text":"謝謝羅庭薇委員還有沒有人 萬美玲委員我簡單補充一下那個二十案因為剛才二十案有做的一個說明那個說明是在提說我們有編列了三千萬在這個宿舍的部分我們要做一個外牆的維修因為其實也年老失修了不過因為在今年度我們知道有編了一千八百萬"},{"start":9930.288,"end":9955.501,"text":"那這1800萬呢我剛去跟這個副院長瞭解一下我們也已經就是相關的案子也都發報出去了在執行中但是一直沒有辦法跟我講說那這個1800萬我們在今年度是要做整個外牆維修的多少趴那如果說今年已經是完成了百分之百那這3000萬當然就不用再編了所以呢這個數據只不能出來喔那我想說我們不可能有一棟建築物在那的地方每一年我們都要編3000萬3000萬這樣一直去做一個維修"},{"start":9957.882,"end":9975.08,"text":"因為這一筆經費無關乎研發、人事、人才培育等等所以我覺得應該要說明白就在這一點我想我還是堅持先把這3000萬做凍結那我們可以做說明以後那我們在說明完畢以後要解凍我們再來使用 以上"},{"start":9976.636,"end":10002.985,"text":"好 那個剛剛有些委員的詢問應該你們可以事後就是書面或者是直接說明喔那如果沒有一定要現在說明的話我們就直接討論因為這個節目已經講很久了齁討論那個凍結好嗎因為剛剛大家都有提到對減少空啊各方面啊就是對綜藝院期待很深喔所以我們是不是少動一點跟外美領委員你是要針對那個還是希望凍結3000萬我們還是整個並動好嗎"},{"start":10005.926,"end":10008.347,"text":"是不是...因為我們都是一起整目並動啦是不是我們整個"},{"start":10031.432,"end":10052.592,"text":"三千會不會太多了?因為其他很多是兩百、一百五十之類的。我想主席我表達一下。其實我們在動的時候其實不是多跟少,而是要有充分的理由,我們才來動。因為動的目的是什麼?是要讓這個預算執行是更有效率,因為這是人民的納稅錢嘛。所以我覺得如果說清楚的話,其實沒有三根洞的必要,但是就是能不能說明白。"},{"start":10053.353,"end":10071.816,"text":"那這樣子是不是一千萬就好啊?因為這個反正一千跟三千都...院長說一百萬,但是這樣大家可能不...那再說明一下好不好?我相信不只我不清楚,應該大家聽了都不太清楚嘛"},{"start":10072.456,"end":10099.4,"text":"國際生研究宿舍這是整棟四個面整棟一起辦的這個招標案這個招標案發包就是4800萬發包就是這個4800萬讓他做兩年但是第二年的預算一定要經過立法院通過才能夠付給他所以他不是一年一年一年的編是一個包案已經標出去的4800萬所以我們會後當然是可以跟委員來報告所以希望這種支持他是一個標案已經是標出去的案子是以上"},{"start":10100.987,"end":10113.207,"text":"我想他說明得蠻清楚,那是不是五百萬,雖然院長希望一百萬。可是我希望台中控務界透過他們的尖端研究,就是說我們就..."},{"start":10114.451,"end":10137.181,"text":"一定啊,一定,好,那個科學委員不是,我們可不可以提出一個,因為我們這邊這個目是叫一般學術研究跟評議啊但是萬美玲所提的這是比較屬於基本行政的這個維護費我覺得跟這個整目,如果說從不從整目來動,其實會引發非常多的一個爭議好像我們教育文化委員會對於這個所謂學術跟這個評鑑我個人覺得他們會整目來去看的話,是否在這個"},{"start":10138.622,"end":10165.251,"text":"這一幕當中可以在學術交流部分我們動個100因為我當初有提出來然後在萬委員的這一塊當中基本行政工這個部分當中特別來不管是500或是1000這樣把它做一個區隔倒可不用一定要整幕來動這樣否則大家要背負的你看這個大廈幕可是裡面卻是一個在宿舍的外牆這個部分裡面是有一些區隔的所以說是不是可以在這一幕當中分了兩大部分一個是在學術的部分我們動個100"},{"start":10166.491,"end":10180.112,"text":"然後在其他的這個行政的基本工作裡面動個一千或者是就尊重提出委員我覺得這樣比較清楚因為它真的是兩塊不同的領域我覺得這樣比較清楚可是因為我們之前都是整幕整幕等一下會不會每個委員都說他那一刻要單獨提出來動"},{"start":10183.215,"end":10204.227,"text":"我複印一下,我覺得科研委員剛剛講的其實很正確因為這是完全兩塊不同的科目那如果其實在學術的部分我們就微微動這一百我覺得OK但是我剛剛提的這個部分的話其實跟剛剛後面的學術研究是沒有關係的我覺得也不要讓大家產生一些誤解"},{"start":10205.087,"end":10219.06,"text":"我想為了節省時間跟維持慣例我們還是就整目動一千萬反正他那個也是放在這裡頭嘛院長覺得怎麼樣好不好整目一千就全部一起因為我們都是整目過去都整目整目動對對不起我們想要第10屆我們第9屆的時候沒有這個問題所以這個第9屆沒有這個問題我當召委沒有這個問題啊"},{"start":10230.95,"end":10234.773,"text":"但是我們過去第10屆都是整戶整戶一起動嗎?對於所有的委員來說所承受的壓力會比較少因為你基本行政工作跟這個學術這個基本上這個是差蠻多的"},{"start":10249.108,"end":10273.992,"text":"主席不然這樣好不好我覺得這樣好不好我提一個建議啦因為我們剛剛說整目動一千萬嘛但是事實上我們剛剛前面有提到說學術研究學術研究的部分是一百萬那其實我們總共也只差一百萬所以我覺得把它分開來我覺得對於我們所有的委員在這個審查預算上會比較清楚我們動的是什麼我是擔心等一下每一幕都要這樣有人要堅持特別的理由的話我們這個整個處理會變得非常的複雜"},{"start":10277.353,"end":10301.109,"text":"因為如果林一金委員跟秀寶委員,記得我們過去這四年都是整目一起併嘛,不單獨討論個別的。否則每個委員都要強調自己的案子的重要性。這個我告訴你,我覺得整目來動其實會造成更多的紛擾。以教育部來說的話,你把這個所謂的什麼都放在一起,我個人覺得這還是要分開。我提議不然我們整目一起動五百萬好不好?那個院長你覺得?朝委"},{"start":10306.154,"end":10334.919,"text":"現在是第11屆啦這第10屆有第10屆的做法第9屆有第9屆的做法第10屆有第11屆的做法我覺得都要尊重委員那還有我們開宗明義就強調就像我的提案中研院有先跟我溝通我也認為說有一些我可以改成主決議但是實際上現在大家討論的就是人才培育的部分我們凍結並不是不支持人才培育是要求是落實預算的執行"},{"start":10335.839,"end":10344.983,"text":"所以,如果說你說要整目動的話,不好意思,這一個目有多大呢?74億6千多萬。那我們現在討論100萬、200萬,連不要說1%啊,連0.1%都不到。"},{"start":10353.277,"end":10368.252,"text":"所以我比較支持是我們個別委員我自己的提案不一定堅持因為我已經有一些提案我可以接受這個解釋可是我們有一些委員提案如果說他是要有個別的一個項目部分我覺得召委應該要尊重啦"},{"start":10368.812,"end":10368.932,"text":"吳培宇委員"},{"start":10396.078,"end":10416.81,"text":"所以我是認為其實這兩岸都是學術交流研究因為我們這一個宿舍是國際研究生宿舍就是我們希望可以吸引國際的人才來到台灣然後跟我們有研究方面的交流相關所以我不認為說你說他只是宿舍那就是分開是行政費其實這兩等都是叫做我們的人才培育計畫好那個林議員有沒有話發言對"},{"start":10425.947,"end":10440.947,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":10443.429,"end":10468.127,"text":"議員提出的預算提案都要來做討論那可能我們今天的討論可能就還要再好幾個小時所以我還是建議說用每一幕讓大家發言之後然後用筒動的方式那當然這個中央也可以自行去做一些調整那所以可能會比較OK啦我覺得這是對世界的掌握也可能比較精準以上"},{"start":10469.847,"end":10495.398,"text":"好,那這個院長要表達意見嗎?尊重尊重齁那整目的話因為剛剛我們說五百萬有人覺得萬美齡會員覺得整目院長希望五百萬啦不然這樣子啦就是說今天我還是覺得在這個部分其實沒有錯因為上一屆我們一樣都在教育文化委員會"},{"start":10496.398,"end":10512.925,"text":"整目的用意是因為整目整目其實預算的類型是類似的所以我們都用整目來看然後充分討論所以上一天是這樣沒有錯但是剛好這個比較特別一點因為在學術研究上面其實我們大概沒有太大的意見我們都是盡量給予支持"},{"start":10513.285,"end":10531.886,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10532.383,"end":10558.41,"text":"但是我是覺得要分開還是要分開因為我們剛剛說因為我們這個慣例好不容易過去四年大家覺得這樣處理很效率美國人也不用去爭論說哪一個案要不要去弄那因為這樣子我們未來不只是中研院還有教育部還有故宮還有就是文化部的那美國人都要去爭議說他自己的案子我是覺得我們就一起那我們就尊重主席我在因為我們有會議"},{"start":10559.15,"end":10560.471,"text":"學人交流宿舍相關?放在器材下嗎?"},{"start":10581.165,"end":10598.83,"text":"但是因為這是放在學術交流我們是不是就一起因為我們這個都是逐字稿的是不是就一起那個中一千萬院長你就同意吧要不然我們再下來會很難處理等一下委員爭取說他個別的東西要分開處理的話因為你有會議記錄大家都會聽啊有逐字稿就知道他是針對這個部分"},{"start":10610.942,"end":10627.628,"text":"院長覺得OK嗎?主席剛剛院長都說尊重了嘛那我現在主席提議就我們整幕就動一千萬因為剛剛外媒聯緣需要分開九百一百我覺得乾脆還是我們整幕一起反正知道是各個委員的考量不一樣好嗎?"},{"start":10630.78,"end":10655.095,"text":"我看好幾位委員那個我想我們是作為新的立法委員那當然有人說慣例啦我們都尊重慣例但是目前委員我們看到萬美林委員跟柯委員對對也是一千但是我們分開嘛但是我想萬美林委員跟柯委員有說到分開我們等一下就很難處理因為剛剛其他委員都沒有去堅持自己的好張雅琳委員要發言她沒發言過我們給她講"},{"start":10656.533,"end":10662.435,"text":"吳佩儀委員原則上我們都是尊重委員的提案但是這個我真的我想要堅持是因為我不認為說在學術研究你硬體軟體拆開"},{"start":10684.241,"end":10706.754,"text":"就像我們在討論大學裡面要提升教學品質宿舍的品質要提升軟硬體它是整體研究培育人才的一部分所以我是不認同把它拆開因為我們要提供好的環境才會吸引優秀的人才來到台灣我們彼此互相切磋學術才會來提升這都是人才培育的一部分所以我還是想要堅持應該是不能拆開來看"},{"start":10710.436,"end":10735.186,"text":"那個我們議事員建議一個處理方式啊就是動一千萬裡面註明說含學術研究一百萬但我們還是整目動這樣大家看得懂了好嗎我們就這樣一個折衷吧這樣我們就不用浪費時間我們就繼續下去就是整體還是整目一起我們待會還是整目一起討論但是我們現在這樣清楚講還是整目一起動就不要破壞這個討論房子"},{"start":10738.747,"end":10765.939,"text":"不會啊,因為等一下有別的委員要提出要針對個案動很忙。謝謝竹蜜喔,那竹蜜剛剛提出來的是顯然她同意嘛,就是說我們是分開只是變但書,但如果我們同意這個方向事實上柯委員剛剛提的是更清楚的。不是,她的意思是說整幕還是動一千,但是著名就是學術交流是一百萬。沒關係啦,我想竹蜜還是會接這個,我覺得竹蜜只是提議啦,但是還是要我們所有的委員在審議算是為主體。"},{"start":10769.519,"end":10769.639,"text":"吳佩儀委員發言"},{"start":10793.971,"end":10813.741,"text":"我都不曉得為什麼就叫開一個例子基本上以前在你如果要講過去的話我覺得以前的話你每一個目下面的不同的一個這個向度來去做大家更很清楚哪一個地方是被動哪一個地方是被刪大家反而更清楚我覺得這是一個小事啦但是也不是說軟硬體要如何我只是不不"},{"start":10814.261,"end":10814.281,"text":"委員會議長"},{"start":10834.787,"end":10862.381,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10863.522,"end":10881.837,"text":"羅廷威委員要再發言嗎?我建議就是依照議事員這個建議然後我們就繼續往下走好不好?剛剛議事員的建議我們整目動1000萬然後做明就是裡面學術交流是動100萬"},{"start":10884.602,"end":10912.338,"text":"議長你很有經驗主席我們還是先休息大家討論一下那我們休息那個五分鐘大家討論一下先補充一下我覺得啦其實我們現在在審啦其實我們的預算的編列就是款、項、目、節那其實我們剛剛講的這些都是應該是同一節的所以是同一節的它只是說用途不同那你把它放在一起那你把它註明就是說你這一千裡面有一百是什麼有九百是什麼那其實它是同一節裡面的預算只是用途不同而已啊"},{"start":10914.336,"end":10917.523,"text":"主席才是我們休息五分鐘,五分鐘後再繼續討論。"},{"start":10930.14,"end":10930.461,"text":"主席"},{"start":10952.537,"end":10952.977,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10965.905,"end":10966.445,"text":"一旦動…一旦動…動…動…動…動…動…動…動…動…動…動…動…動…"},{"start":10994.684,"end":11013.746,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":11013.866,"end":11018.71,"text":"關於其他部分,我們不希望這個學術部門給大家配到的問題來,這個學術部門一百萬是反而在學術部門給拿得到的問題來嗎?"},{"start":11031.98,"end":11051.698,"text":"外媒的委員是針對這種制度還是針對這種制度?你本來說我們卡在這個地方對著我們好像全部...你本來讓我們背上了我們動其他學術的這樣一個領域。好,我只是想問一下,這次議員有建議說...啊你這次議員建議的不是跟我當初的那種不一樣嗎?你以前在第9屆這是在過,你當然知道我們那時候的說法,你說這個不一樣。"},{"start":11054.98,"end":11066.203,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":11079.998,"end":11090.445,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案"},{"start":11109.497,"end":11127.5,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11127.82,"end":11128.16,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11151.823,"end":11157.09,"text":"一百的部分是整部分,那九千九百的部分是整部分。"},{"start":11169.164,"end":11169.464,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11187.595,"end":11194.942,"text":"這個反而比較清楚啊。我們第九屆的時候還比較清楚,好不好?不反,這樣子比較清楚。學術研究我們都已經審嘛。學術研究你這樣一動牌是讓我們覺得。所以這個就重新不能讓他們去打嗎?"},{"start":11213.391,"end":11214.792,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11247.176,"end":11262.176,"text":"議員．﹏"},{"start":11263.637,"end":11271.164,"text":"全部全部的工程?一個工程案的全部?可以啦,可以啦,沒問題沒問題,我們現在只要拿麥克風OK,沒問題啊。小的事情。"},{"start":11288.557,"end":11298.761,"text":"二十案動九百 萬委員 二十案動九百其他動一百這樣可以嗎?可以啊 一百就是這樣子啊這是很明確的把它標示出來二十案動九百"},{"start":11301.842,"end":11307.588,"text":"對,但是我們也沒辦法保證,就這樣打保證,沒辦法保證說一定會成功在南京,所以現在已經曉得太多了,我已經知道不曉得了。對,"},{"start":11326.306,"end":11327.447,"text":"我們找到解方了啦"},{"start":11348.308,"end":11376.162,"text":"那個我們繼續開會喔那我想我們這個部分就從20到33案動900萬其他動100萬好嗎這樣就維持萬美林委員維持我們認為比較有效率處方式那也完成萬美林針對那個基本行政工作維持費好不好當然都是以上都是書面報告之後才解凍"},{"start":11377.449,"end":11379.71,"text":"那我再來把主決議說面報告後才能解凍。好,就是您說的。院長是不是先回應我一下17案?"},{"start":11404.121,"end":11427.954,"text":"關於說羅委員要提說要向這個政府爭取在中火做用巨蛋燃氣那我們當然會極力爭取除了中火之外我們更希望在全國各地的所有的天然氣場都將來都有機會能夠做到用巨蛋燃氣當然要看說我們的研發是否順利但是我們會朝這個方向努力"},{"start":11428.795,"end":11448.112,"text":"我稍微提醒一下我不是說在增加機組了因為6加6已經很多了是說從原本的這個6部燃氣機組裡面是不是捨去掉換成你們的去碳燃金這部分來做一個研議不要再增加了就是在原本的量去做一個更換去研究一下可行性這樣子好這個可行性我們會研究"},{"start":11453.05,"end":11464.815,"text":"修正一下是20到28案動900萬其他100萬那以下我把主決議已經改主決議的念一下請大家聽一下第18案第19案22案23案26案27案44案49案51案57案58案改成主決議以上有沒有漏掉"},{"start":11478.916,"end":11479.176,"text":"第3幕59-65案"},{"start":11500.242,"end":11518.939,"text":"59案第65案有沒有哪一位委員要發言很快好那個柯之恩羅廷偉好很快因為我第61案好像跟剛剛范委員裡面第18、19其實還蠻雷同的就是有關於這個中研院他上架繁體中文的這個語言模型嘛那我知道上次我在質詢的時候已經特別提過了"},{"start":11519.6,"end":11542.442,"text":"你們因為有出現中國式的回答已經把它下架了然後中研院也成立了AI風險研究小組那目前也有不少的這個大型的語言模型的開發計畫我還是要強調了因為政府應該投注更多的資源在這個繁體的中文資料庫的一個建構啦我覺得這會比你現在打造一個最會講台灣語言的模型更具有長期的一個效應"},{"start":11543.323,"end":11543.483,"text":"羅丁威委員"},{"start":11564.131,"end":11589.75,"text":"我是第62萬那其實這個東西跟第8案有點就是相似啦那我沒有這麼的一定要我可以把它改成說是主決議但最主要我要講的是說這筆錢不是針對老師是針對這個人士那我想還是希望有一個具體的因為已經違反這個就業服務法所以我們希望後面要怎麼去改進希望能夠給我們一個更明確的一個具體作為謝謝"},{"start":11591.69,"end":11592.671,"text":"第3幕 第4幕"},{"start":11618.752,"end":11632.73,"text":"改組決議的案有61案、62案。好。那我們進入第4幕。林益錦委員、然後陳秀寶委員、郭育晴委員、柯志恩委員、張雅琳委員。張雅琳委員。"},{"start":11638.442,"end":11655.154,"text":"好 謝謝主席第四幕我有三個案子因為是南部院區那我分別來講一下首先是70案70案這案就是說我非常關心我們的硬體設施設備"},{"start":11656.615,"end":11672.701,"text":"南部園區現在研究三樓的三棟都已經完工可是有部分的研究大樓的空間還沒有進駐使用像是第一棟的研究大樓可使用的這個坪數還有五層還沒有用那第三棟的研究大樓的B棟的一、二樓是要招商使用那規劃是要做生活機能、餐廳等等"},{"start":11677.363,"end":11678.944,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算"},{"start":11706.903,"end":11708.004,"text":"：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":11730.984,"end":11745.761,"text":"第76案第76案我上次質詢的時候有提到就是我比較關心就是所謂我們南部院區這個開放跟兒童科普日因為我們南部開放是"},{"start":11746.281,"end":11747.362,"text":"：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":11764.135,"end":11786.88,"text":"三十五場其實第一次舉辦來看這樣是很不錯可是如果我們跟北部動輒上百場的規模相比當然還有一些差距那另外我就提到說就是兒童科普日期待說南部是不是還也可以來辦相關的活動可以比照北部有一樣的兒童科普日未來再來就是說也期待說我們"},{"start":11788.456,"end":11788.516,"text":"議員．一、繼續審查"},{"start":11806.954,"end":11830.111,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11830.111,"end":11848.599,"text":"所以這個部分 這個提案其實是可以改成主決議那來做一個建議那另外第77案就是說我身為台南的委員我還是非常的關注中研院南部院區的工程進度那除了這個就是量子的科技"},{"start":11849.159,"end":11850.1,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":11868.8,"end":11872.041,"text":"：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":11896.101,"end":11898.683,"text":"謝謝林議員我確認一下你是70、76、77都是改組決議嗎好 謝謝那再來陳秀寶委員請發言好 謝謝主席在這一幕南部縣區的部分我的案子是兩個案子73案以及第80案那73案其實剛剛我已經委員所關心的這個南部縣區的這個縣區維護及興建工程這期間因為"},{"start":11922.499,"end":11944.808,"text":"次次的流標之後我們有修正應該是有檢証就刪除一些相關的預算之後我們修正計劃因為這樣子說我們工程就往後延了嘛期程本來是到116年延到117年那終於也是在22號就已經舉行凍土儀式那其實我提這個案子本來預計的凍結數是1000萬"},{"start":11948.109,"end":11960.135,"text":"是希望說督促我們我們要來對這個南部邊區的這個工程必須要有更積極的態度然後你們應該要就是在整個的監督的這個"},{"start":11962.09,"end":11962.15,"text":"關於關鍵議題研究"},{"start":11991.178,"end":11993.22,"text":"除了助理人員工讀生薪資以外,一期設備及搬運費高達800多萬元,還有乾式稀釋能動機兩台的費用高達1億2千多萬元。"},{"start":12007.452,"end":12008.693,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":12035.17,"end":12055.858,"text":"關於這個人員的編制其實我會比較關心就是說看起來薪資這麼高的部分裡面是因為說他是合理的薪資待遇還是我剛剛一直在關心的是不是有超時假班還是有什麼在工作上的壓力這個部分我會希望說我們是一個好的勞動條件因為我們本來要招募人才就已經很不容易了"},{"start":12055.998,"end":12082.961,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":12084.431,"end":12106.152,"text":"好,謝謝秀寶委員,那再來請郭育琴委員,等一下柯志恩委員好,那這個部分我是那個第68案那南部園區其實發展量子科技跟新建實驗大樓的規劃那我們知道其實從110年7月或行政院同意之後其實我們在112年的8月30有公開的一個月欄"},{"start":12109.155,"end":12131.698,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12131.718,"end":12131.738,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":12157.17,"end":12160.971,"text":"謝謝郭育琴委員再來我們請柯志恩委員發言下一個張雅琳委員葛如君委員先發言等一下張雅琳再來柯志恩、羅廷偉、洪孟凱"},{"start":12183.497,"end":12209.104,"text":"好,謝謝主席,謝謝柯志文委員那第4幕的部分呢71跟78案我們就支持併案那第81案呢我們是支持組決議啦那剛剛第3幕的有一個地方第64案呢關於中研院歐美索的業務費我們當然也是支持併案到改為組決議但是有一些地方我們不好意思就想要說明一下"},{"start":12210.445,"end":12237.188,"text":"這個中英歐美所的業務費在質詢的時候我們之前有提過這個美國肖像的調查研究問卷設計其實是稍微不太符合研究方法論的要求比如說第13題有提到美國總統公開承諾保衛台灣對於未來美國台灣出兵幫助台灣的可能性減少還是增加或者第20題中國大陸近來派軍機軍艦繞行台灣空域對於中國大陸未來攻打台灣的可能性是增加還是減少"},{"start":12237.648,"end":12250.431,"text":"他甚至在問問題的時候減少增加或增加減少他還會刻意的有點去做一點安排這種有點引導性的問題在這整份問卷裡面反覆出現有可能會影響民眾的選擇這樣問卷做出來的研究可能會正確性會受到大家的質疑甚至中議院最後還開了記者會"},{"start":12256.773,"end":12272.549,"text":"所以這份問卷沒有設計題組來鑒別相關的瞭解程度對於美國政治的瞭解程度所以問到的人很可能根本不知道川普是誰這是哪一個政黨的候選人也不知道他對台灣的政策是什麼就直接在第24題問說假設川普勝選成為美國總統且中國大陸攻打台灣直接的假設"},{"start":12278.134,"end":12304.797,"text":"說你認為美國出兵幫助台灣的可能性是減少還是增加同樣的問題也沒有去假設當時民主黨的候選人拜登如果當選的話會怎麼樣所以這個外界其實有懷疑的所以為什麼我們很在意這個議題是因為之前院長有表達支持這個學術的自主但是研究要應該有一定的科學性如果我們研究沒有科學性我們不管在討論什麼樣預算的時候都會有影響跟疑慮"},{"start":12305.658,"end":12334.737,"text":"我們在預算溝通的時候有把疑慮直接反映給歐美索的黃副所長在場所有來溝通的中研院的老師也親眼看過這份問卷確實認為內容不妥會後我們也收到歐美索的回覆表示將會把這個研究聯同問卷一起送交外審外審的結果再由所內所召開的審查委員會做成通過或不通過的決議如果不通過就不會再補助該研究案在此還是要請問中研院假設外審的結果審查委員的意見是負面大於正面"},{"start":12335.237,"end":12353.902,"text":"有沒有可能審查委員會忽視外審的結果還是會給予通過審查委員會做成決議的依據是什麼那更重要的是要如何避免未來有帶有這樣特定立場的研究以中央院的名義來發表那預算的部分我們理解就是剛剛已經有同意就是說"},{"start":12355.743,"end":12370.472,"text":"但本案後續處理的結果我們跟歐美所的鄧所長有達成共識就是說包括外審以及院內學術審查的結果中央院必須在2月底以前以書面方式回覆本辦公室也謝謝主席讓我們可以做一些這個說明謝謝"},{"start":12372.176,"end":12394.386,"text":"好,那個第三幕就再補一下32案、50案、64案照列喔,那我們就不再回去討論,那書面報告的話就回去,就各自去書面報告。那第四幕我們,還有陳培委員26案跟27案齁,是併在一起。好,那再來我們請那個柯之恩委員,欸不是柯之恩委員,對不起張雅琳委員先齁。抱歉抱歉,那個張雅琳委員。"},{"start":12400.543,"end":12426.453,"text":"好,我的案是第66案那主要是因為希望南部院區增加吸引力增加誘因讓人才可以過去我們也了解說現在就是進駐的人員不夠多所以其實很難吸引到我們的廠商來進駐但是還是希望中央研院可以積極來努力那另外一個部分就是休閒的設施因為它都是這麼高壓的研究有沒有一些相關的休閒設施的規劃可以幫助大家減壓那這一個案"},{"start":12429.214,"end":12447.936,"text":"這個案我不堅持,所以我可以改成主決議,謝謝。好,謝謝張雅琳委員。再來柯志恩委員發言。是,我那個第74跟75案,其他幾位委員都已經關切過了就有關實驗大樓新建的問題,包括流標,包括進度,包括量子科技研究基地,大家都已經看過了。"},{"start":12448.336,"end":12449.316,"text":" ﹝中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":12477.025,"end":12501.717,"text":"我是69案吼,那我這沒有這麼堅持啦,我可以改組決議。謝謝。好,那我是67案吼,我想67案的部分還是一樣,就是說現在大家都希望是說能夠趕快進駐研究空間,那但是到目前為止還沒有,我想還是要請院長這邊來做一個說明,那另外就是"},{"start":12503.177,"end":12520.209,"text":"之前我們這個同仁還來跟本席這邊來溝通的時候還有講是說現在媒合這個什麼這個外送平台啊還是什麼這個在做我心裡在想這個真的不需要中研院來做啦一般的民眾他們就說我們的研究人自己就會去按了"},{"start":12520.829,"end":12545.268,"text":"所以我們還是強調的是說怎麼樣能夠發揮我們南部縣區的一個效能以及讓大家都能夠滿足最基本的十一住行你才有可能讓這個我們同仁能夠在這邊比較無後顧之憂啦這一點是不是說明一下好不好謝謝好謝謝洪孟楷委員那針對第四幕如果沒有委員要發言的話我們就請中研院一起回應好那個哪一位回應"},{"start":12552.743,"end":12572.626,"text":"檢要回應阿對 謝謝委員那有關於這個工程的部分是沒有問題但是整個生活機能跟服務設施運動設施和洪委員剛剛提到的部分我們這個地區的狀況確實是還沒有那麼完善我們會積極加強努力的去提升我們這個環境讓我們的研究人員跟研究量能在這邊能夠好好發揮以上"},{"start":12575.161,"end":12577.464,"text":"主決意都遵照辦理"},{"start":12591.288,"end":12610.225,"text":"我們先處理那個凍結的部分,那我們整個就凍,因為剛剛有委員好像講的都是100萬,整個並凍100萬第4幕,好嗎?書面報告後解凍,書面規劃報告後解凍。那主決的部分我念一下,大家看有沒有漏掉的。66案、69案、70案、73案、76案、77案、80案改組決議。"},{"start":12618.752,"end":12632.508,"text":"其實沒有。其實沒有。其實沒有。有漏掉嗎?81也是主決議。來,教委6767也是改主決議是吧?好,67案。68也改主決議,再加67跟68。"},{"start":12633.969,"end":12659.969,"text":"但是 抱歉 趙薇 如果說這樣的話真的 因為剛院長講說 盡力啊 快速啊 大力啊時程表要規劃 規劃表是不是 因為我們要求說改主角 但是一個月內 那個規劃表要出來一個月內書面報告規劃表給他們好不好就是說 你的期程到底 因為我們很多委員級都講 生活機能 運動設施我想 這一些部分就不是說 我們這希望能夠促進那個地方 完整"},{"start":12660.469,"end":12661.49,"text":"第4幕處理完畢我們現在進入第5幕在第7頁大家看一下第5幕下一個就是主決議"},{"start":12690.711,"end":12719.403,"text":"好 那個科研委員先還有哪位委員要發言的好 洪孟楷委員好 那個我提案是84案跟89案不過中原有來溝通過畢竟我們84案是針對這個有關於新型疾病的這樣子的開發計案那我們希望中原能夠加速這個成果的計轉這很重要那因為來溝通過所以我也相信就是說因為目前計畫正在努力商品化所以我同意改成主決議但是還是希望中原盡快來落實"},{"start":12720.583,"end":12744.499,"text":"那89案是有關於生技研究的園區課金問題那我有特別提出來有些時候是要提供給這個食藥署作為辦公廳這個社長達4年被質疑如果廠商要進駐的話會被影響不過尊嚴願意來溝通那有解釋會再擴增你們這個優秀廠商來進駐的彈性的空間所以這案這個84跟89我也同意把它改為組決議"},{"start":12747.254,"end":12772.651,"text":"好 謝謝科智恩委員再來洪孟楷委員好 感謝我的是83案83案這邊我也希望是說能夠有加速計轉的一個商品化不過另外我也同意就是說因為之前中研院這邊有來跟溝通也是講說有些時候我們真的有這個技術但不一定它市場上有這樣的一個需求所以你說有沒有辦法很如實的來商品化這不一定"},{"start":12775.753,"end":12802.711,"text":"拜託我這個案子可以改成主決議,但我也拜託未來我們的研究發展上面還是以這個比較這個大眾的一個部分的需求部分來做一個研究發展的一個方向。我想不管是過去的COVID或者是說相關的一個疫苗研究等等的,我們可以支持中研院的一個研究,但我們也希望是真的能夠把它的學以致用能落實到我們的一個日常。以上謝謝。"},{"start":12803.672,"end":12804.713,"text":"蘿婷薇委員發言"},{"start":12824.378,"end":12848.22,"text":"好,82案也改成主決議那如果沒有委員要發言的話我們第5幕就照列那我們現在進入改成主決議的有83、84、89跟8282、83、84、89改成主決議好88案也改成主決議還有沒有漏掉哪一個案子"},{"start":12849.502,"end":12870.275,"text":"好 對 那個條列齁 大家等一下可以來前面查一下這邊都有記錄好不好 如果擔心自己漏掉的話 因為剛剛我都有宣讀 好 那個 好 剛剛有講過了齁 對 前面剛剛那個第三幕的3、2、50、64也是改決議 88也改組決議 好 那如果這邊都沒有問題的話 我們就進入組決議"},{"start":12878.464,"end":12903.18,"text":"主決議第90案陳培宇委員的遭案辦理。91案陳培宇委員遭案辦理。92案遵照辦理。93案羅廷瑞委員的修正文字後遵照辦理。94案林建啟委員的遵照辦理。95林建啟委員的修正文字後遭案辦理。就是遭案通過。遭案辦理。"},{"start":12905.823,"end":12926.693,"text":"96 業源支委員修正通過97 業源支委員修正通過98 萬美林委員修正通過99 萬美林委員修正通過100 萬美林委員修正通過101 陳秀寶委員修正通過102 張雅琳委員修正通過103 張雅琳委員遵照辦理"},{"start":12927.913,"end":12947.266,"text":"104張雅玲的遵照辦理105張雅玲已經撤案106張雅玲遵照辦理107張雅玲修正通過108吳春成遵照辦理109吳春成遵照辦理105吳春成修正通過115春成遵照辦理120怡錦遵照辦理1130怡錦遵照辦理"},{"start":12957.533,"end":12984.775,"text":"好 那這個預算案剛剛改組決議的是有第一案、第二案、第九案、第十案、十三、十八、十九、二二、二三、二七、三二、四九、五十、五一、五七、五八、六一、六二改稱組決議應該都沒有意義沒有意見我們就通過好那我們現在進入基金大家加油基金應該很快"},{"start":12986.803,"end":13005.936,"text":"請大家拿出另外一本基金沒有多少就兩頁對不對我們就一起討論好了好不好基金就一起好那個柯之恩、張雅玲、陳秀寶、郭育晴領一頂"},{"start":13008.083,"end":13017.547,"text":"好了大家時間通常是在吃飯之前我媽媽說吃飯之前不要給人家講太多話好不好各位所以呢我就把可以變成主角因為中研都來溝通過所以我的第6案簡單的來講我覺得因為我自己個人"},{"start":13024.149,"end":13036.904,"text":"覺得因為是針對中研院在建構固體資產的部分包括這些電腦設備等等之類的使用執行率都比較偏低嘛只有四到六成所以呢每年都要辦理預算保留而且你在112年度的預算保留達到五億六千"},{"start":13041.088,"end":13065.583,"text":"所以說相關的計畫保留超過8年非常的不合理啦真的是不合理所以溝通之後呢我考量到中研院有必要的構制所謂同意改列就是說第6案凍結100萬好不好希望中研院能夠提出相關改善的這個部分那第9案呢因為他的成果保護然後維護這個這個所謂的專利的維護次數希望能夠有所提升然後我也"},{"start":13066.583,"end":13067.603,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關於你們對於"},{"start":13093.328,"end":13093.668,"text":"總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":13111.215,"end":13112.815,"text":"第16案的部分我還是認為需要做一些的凍結因為你們是你們的合併頂尖特殊人才的計畫是要來共併"},{"start":13140.202,"end":13144.687,"text":"國內外的這個頂尖學者啊但這些年執行都還是一樣都是執行成效不是太好啊你看你們這個數據會說話嗎108到112執行率只有110只有111年可以達到54其他都低於五成啊"},{"start":13154.718,"end":13172.381,"text":"議員．﹏"},{"start":13173.022,"end":13199.644,"text":"檢討辦理相關的計劃的必要性那最後在21案裡面進行排放大家其實給予很大的一個期待但是呢說實在的113年9月抵制你們的質詢率真的是只有26.06這之前我有質疑過那你們有解釋有關於儀器採購組裝需要評估測試要花時間溝通所以也承諾年底現在已經11月了要年底前改善所以我也同意21案也改成組決議"},{"start":13200.965,"end":13227.192,"text":"所以就只有兩案是希望能夠凍結一百萬來希望能夠得到更清楚的一個規劃計劃好不好?好 謝謝柯志恩委員再我們請張雅玲委員發言等一下陳秀寶、郭育晴、林井、羅廷瑋好 那我的提案是第12案跟第17案那第12案也是就是說我們在這個提升學術研究品質及學術競爭力方面113年度截至6月底前"},{"start":13228.152,"end":13243.413,"text":"其開集專書論文發表僅達730篇,距離年度目標2230篇,相差甚遠。那你們給我的回覆是說,因為如果只有用1113年到6月底的數字來看的話,可能評估是有"},{"start":13243.573,"end":13246.715,"text":"第17屆基金附屬單位預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案"},{"start":13266.51,"end":13267.151,"text":"閱议委員會提供參考及監督"},{"start":13288.341,"end":13288.662,"text":"陳秀寶委員陳秀寶委員"},{"start":13304.992,"end":13307.034,"text":"預算其實是年年增加了從110年的110億、111年變成114億、112年變成129億、113年是變成134億到明年的預算是變143億"},{"start":13319.711,"end":13338.198,"text":"當然我提這個案子也不是要苛求中研院雖然中研院我們的這些相關的研究是偏向比較基礎的科研並不是說研發出來就可以馬上進行授權但是我們的經費年年增加但是權益金我們卻沒有覺得說我們應該要這樣子來增加所以就覺得有點交代不太過去"},{"start":13340.459,"end":13364.097,"text":"科研的成果如果當下沒有授權但是其實我們應該沒幾年應該去檢視專利如果有適合推廣及授權的尤其是像生醫呀醫藥這個部分的生技部分的如果有這樣的研究成果就是應該要推出去來增加我們權利金的收入所以說我會在這個部分我提示要增列兩百萬好 謝謝秀寶委員再來我們請郭育琴委員好 這個部分我的"},{"start":13370.134,"end":13389.715,"text":"提案是31還有18那我主要針對這個第三我想這個中國對我們這個文攻武嚇其實已經不是一天兩天的事情了那尤其是我們在這個附中其實不管是中國還是港澳的部分其實大家都要小心那個風險的部分"},{"start":13391.996,"end":13412.541,"text":"第三案的部分就是我們看到我們在大陸旅費的部分就是其他的地方其實都是有銳減或者是持平但大陸旅費的部分我們特別提高到518%那就我剛剛所說的其實我比較擔心的就是他們對於我們一些科研人才的一個挖角"},{"start":13413.021,"end":13436.478,"text":"或者是要竊取一些核心的這個資料或者是一些技術其實這個部分我們是相對的來講要更加的嚴格跟小心那我只是不曉得說為什麼這個地方特別提列就是高於其他的部分高達了518%那我想這個部分可能我還是有一些小小的意見是不是要做這個凍結那等一下可以請大家就是再提供給我"},{"start":13437.098,"end":13453.026,"text":"第11案的部分,因為上次有特別來我辦公室有做說明,那這個部分其實我還是可以支持,就是變成主決議的部分。那第18的部分就是在中央委員會我們在101年有設置這個生物資料庫。"},{"start":13453.866,"end":13454.026,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":13482.263,"end":13490.889,"text":"我針對的我這個案第4案針對的就是中國的也是中國的旅費的問題喔那我想因為"},{"start":13492.182,"end":13513.44,"text":"因為明年度最主要是明年度的預算的旅運費比今年度的預算增幅是超過50%那特別是中國的這個旅運費是比今年度的預算成長了5倍多可是本席可以理解說因為這個COVID-19的疫情趨緩那各國的學術交流次數大增喔"},{"start":13513.92,"end":13535.763,"text":"可是若依據這個附屬單位預算共同項目編列作業規範特別收入基金的國外旅費及中國旅費以不超過前一年度的預算為原則當然中研院有說明說是因為疫情的時候編的實在是太少所以明年度的預算是回到疫情前的規模"},{"start":13536.684,"end":13537.425,"text":"謝謝林一金委員 再請羅廷薇委員發言"},{"start":13557.947,"end":13582.389,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我是第7、15、23我沒有很堅持可以改成主決議但是我,因為眾議院有來跟我說明那剛剛院長也非常有誠意那我們在這個科研基金對於淨泥碳排這個部分我們都寄予眾望但我雖然改成主決議我還是要再次提醒眾議院 112年度的預算執行率89.37%"},{"start":13584.571,"end":13613.304,"text":"當然度預算未全數執行完畢那現在113年到9月執行數又佔預算數的比率僅只有26.06%我覺得執行的狀況欠佳換言之這個釋出緊急需要補辦預算卻又沒用完而保留我們會有所疑慮所以才會提出這樣子的一個案子還是事後希望大家還是要稍微在這個部分要有一個確切的一個具體作為讓我們能夠安心所以我目前先改成主決議但後續我會持續追蹤謝謝"},{"start":13615.213,"end":13616.153,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13631.78,"end":13650.193,"text":"學術書簽就剛委員提的第一個張委員提到有關論文書今年我們現在提供給委員的是730篇那我跟委員稍微報告一下去年在這個6月底的時候我們的調查是860篇那到了年底我們總共有2100多篇"},{"start":13651.614,"end":13673.061,"text":"那所以我們覺得今年我們應該到最後應該也會達到2000片作用所以就這點先跟委員做個說明然後那個大陸旅費呢主要是因為前兩年的112年、113年因為疫情的原因所以都減劣了它事實上都變得比較少112年我們只變了86萬但是我們決算數是511萬"},{"start":13678.792,"end":13701.932,"text":"所以然後當然我們也會注意剛剛這個委員提到的說去中國大陸的這些安全那我們也一直在強調大家不管個人的安全資料的安全還有資安方面我們也會提醒我們的研究院如果有需要去中國大陸的時候包括港澳地區我們會提醒大家以上"},{"start":13705.132,"end":13705.833,"text":"張雅琳委員發言"},{"start":13722.495,"end":13741.332,"text":"老師,我覺得那個...剛剛講那個學術論文齁,剛剛講說去年跟去年同期相比嘛,我們今年跟去年是差不多嘛齁,但我想我們畢竟是中央研究院啦,我們用詞應該還是要科學精準啦,不是我覺得這樣子。所以我覺得是不是有,我們已經有一些統計數字可以看到預估值,我們今年年底會跟..."},{"start":13743.033,"end":13743.393,"text":"中央委員說明一下"},{"start":13759.498,"end":13759.518,"text":"楊懷毅議員"},{"start":13773.848,"end":13773.948,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13790.951,"end":13795.257,"text":"國際的大的生技廠商或者產業要投入最大的困難是在於現在使用的這個環境以及使用的模式可能有一些需要突破的地方"},{"start":13809.694,"end":13828.172,"text":"不過現在已經有露出曙光可以去突破這個使用的環境與使用的模式未來可能可以在院的這個幫助之下逐漸擴大這個廠商尤其是國際的大廠的合作及投入再次跟委員報告謝謝好謝謝說明喔那還有某委員要提問的"},{"start":13830.323,"end":13855.173,"text":"如果沒有的話那我們針對基金的部分我們是不是基金來源的這個部分陳秀寶委員的增列兩百萬有沒有人異議沒有的話就通過那基金用途的部分我們是不是整體並動一百萬有沒有委員兩百萬那這樣兩百萬好嗎院長覺得OK嗎並動兩百萬"},{"start":13861.192,"end":13864.874,"text":"第9案、第11案、第7案、第14案、第15案、第21案、第23案已經改組決議。剛剛87案有一個是病案處理,也一起說明一下。"},{"start":13889.868,"end":13898.832,"text":"這邊有沒有問題?針對基金的改組決議,沒有問題喔。那前面有一些改組決議的喔,我這邊也一起念一下。66、67、68、69、73、76、777、80、81、82、83、84、88、89都改成組決議。這是補充、補前面的。"},{"start":13912.163,"end":13912.323,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":13936.561,"end":13940.827,"text":"是我們做完的第一個工作"},{"start":13942.798,"end":13946.661,"text":"這是我們教文第一個預算來吧來吧來吧各位來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":13972.719,"end":13973.92,"text":"一、二、三。"},{"start":13998.507,"end":13999.948,"text":"感謝大家。"},{"start":14022.862,"end":14042.854,"text":"我跟妳說妳那個木跟砍對對否則的話否則到時候否則到時候對否則的話到我若是堅持這部分對不起啊總理到文化部就給妳沒砍沒木沒下我最好不要這樣子而且而且大家也不會這樣子大家也不會太堅持啦教文很好講的"},{"start":14043.695,"end":14044.956,"text":"委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、"},{"start":14071.513,"end":14074.335,"text":"三十二號這邊要宣告一下,是要一個月內,然後議事也有說嗎?"},{"start":14097.969,"end":14100.291,"text":"稍早給委員簽名。稍早給委員簽名就要2300元。"},{"start":14117.762,"end":14119.344,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":14140.526,"end":14141.807,"text":"請委員跟院長請就座"},{"start":14167.81,"end":14196.317,"text":"好那個大家待會再問院長我們要宣布那個請委員就座我們需要兩位委員感恩謝謝秀寶委員跟易經委員好謝謝院長我們那個就座處理一下好那我們繼續開會喔我們宣告一下基金改組決議的部分有第7案第9案11案14案15案21案23案然後剛才有32案的時間點是改一個月也宣告一下"},{"start":14197.81,"end":14211.235,"text":"今天的審查結果免於重複宣讀在不影響文藝前提下授權議事人員依114年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商之範例整理列入記錄"},{"start":14212.695,"end":14232.588,"text":"關於114年度中央研究院預算案做如下決議一、114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案、中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案全部審查完畢對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分"},{"start":14233.689,"end":14244.968,"text":"請相關機關競訴與書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位謝謝大家辛苦了大家可以回南港了回哪裡了"}]}},{"id":"16301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16301","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ef2b9a3ee14b9f3ef9e2506b9d78cd73cb104c5adbfed68f79dfe7b837b891ee85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理）\n二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理）\n三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分有關財政部主管債務基金－中央政府債務基金。（處理）\n四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：\n 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9項,財政資訊中心預算元。（第三款,貴費收入"},{"start":2202.475,"end":2208.057,"text":"第64項,財政部259萬元第65項,國庫署6175萬1千元第66項,負稅署85萬7千元第67項,台北國稅局1億9488萬1千元第68項,高雄國稅局3990萬4千元第69項,北區國稅局及所屬7971萬7千元第70項,中區國稅局及所屬4158萬元第71項,南區國稅局及所屬"},{"start":2227.683,"end":2245.674,"text":"兩千三百三十七萬七千元（第七十二項（公務署及所屬兩億七千三百五十七萬兩千元（第七十三項（國有財產署及所屬無劣數（第七十四項（財政資訊中心三千兩百七十二萬五千元（第四款財產收入（第九十項（財政部一千兩百九十五萬五千元（第九十一項（"},{"start":2246.754,"end":2249.916,"text":"國庫署13萬元、第92項負稅署69萬7千元、第93項台北國稅局175萬8千元、第94項高雄國稅局98萬2千元、第95項北區國稅局及所屬487萬8千元、"},{"start":2261.462,"end":2263.244,"text":"總預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。"},{"start":2277.142,"end":2285.99,"text":"第五款營業盈餘及事業收入第四項財政部166億9825萬1千元第一幕營業基金盈餘繳庫80億3832萬9千元第二幕投資收益86億5992萬2千元第五項國有財產署及所屬5億5928萬元第一幕營業基金盈餘繳庫5億5928萬元第六款捐贈及贈餘收入第一項國庫署及國庫署無劣數第七款"},{"start":2303.326,"end":2307.668,"text":"其他收入第89項財政部530399000元第90項國庫署3122485000元第91項負稅署19729000元第92項臺北國稅局320222000元第93項高雄國稅局69079000元第94項北區國稅局及所屬9995萬元第95項中區國稅局及所屬"},{"start":2327.987,"end":2342.776,"text":"兩千六百四十萬六千元（九十六項（南區國術局及所屬兩千四百八十七萬一千元（九十七項（公務署及所屬兩千五百六十一萬七千元（九十八項（國會財政署及所屬五一三百二十一萬七千元（九十九項（財政資訊中心八千元"},{"start":2344.182,"end":2361.363,"text":"財政部及所屬稅出預算部分第10款財政部主管第一項財政部一百三十四億五千六百零五萬六千元第一幕一般行政四億六千八百五十四萬一千元第二幕財政能源訓練四千零六十八萬八千元第三幕畜生業務九千零三一九萬三千元第四幕投資事業股權移轉"},{"start":2361.823,"end":2367.428,"text":"五、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府五、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府五、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府五、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府五、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":2390.726,"end":2395.087,"text":"939萬2千元。（國庫約務3億6511萬2千元。（第一佩金77萬元。（國債複息1068億8742萬1千元。（國債經理4億2645萬5千元。（地方政府統籌分配稅款短少補助63億6678萬6千元。（財政資訊中心22億2405萬1千元。（一般行政4億8844萬1千元。"},{"start":2418.953,"end":2421.039,"text":"第二幕財政資訊業務17億3443萬6千元第三幕第一倍金117萬4千元"},{"start":2427.888,"end":2447.373,"text":"財務基金、中央政府財務基金依約務計劃,如有修正,除住民修正意見外,應另加序,並依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整。如有修正,應序名,應依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整。基金來源用途及依促基金來源9129億6726萬5千元基金用途9129億6525萬1千元本期剩餘201萬4千元結繳工庫無劣數宣讀委員提案專業囊部分"},{"start":2458.206,"end":2465.113,"text":"隔壁那裡案服務費用向下專業服務費凍結10%委員吳立法等上年低案中央銀行共42案"},{"start":2472.711,"end":2500.251,"text":"增略本期淨利90億元委員賴世保等商人提案。第二案金融保險向下利息收入增略40億元委員李坤城等商人提案。第三案事業投資利益增略2000萬元委員賴世保等商人提案。第四案金融保險成本向下利息費用減略10億元委員李坤城等商人提案。第五案金融保險成本向下利息費用減略10億元委員郭國文等商人提案。第六案"},{"start":2501.889,"end":2505.694,"text":"立行複案簡列八議員為納思寶等三人提案。（第七案"},{"start":2507.728,"end":2534.697,"text":"金融保險成本向下,手續費用減月一千萬元,為營業秀等三項提案。（第八案手續費用減月五百萬元,為陳玉珍等三項提案。（第九案發行硬幣費用減月四千萬元,為耐斯堡等三項提案。（第十案發行硬幣費用減月一千萬元,其中宣達費及推展費各一百萬元,為雇國人等三項提案。（第十一案發行硬幣費用凍結20%為營業花園等三項提案。（第十二案"},{"start":2536.017,"end":2553.849,"text":"發行操縱費用減列5億元為陳玉珍等3項提案。（處理（第13案發行操縱費用減列4億元為李映秀等3項提案。（處理（第14案發行操縱費用向下服務費用減列1000萬元為郭國安等3項提案。（處理（第15案營業費用向下業務費用凍結1億元為賴慧營等3項提案。（處理（第16案營業費用相較之業務費用"},{"start":2559.236,"end":2577.79,"text":"凍結1億元委員奈會員等3項提案。（第17案營業費用向下管理費用減滅1000萬元委員陳玉珍等3項提案。（第18案管理費用向下服務費用凍結600萬元委員奈會員等3項提案。（第19案管理費用向下之服務費凍結600萬元委員奈會員等3項提案。（第20案"},{"start":2579.091,"end":2608.212,"text":"管理費用向下支、專業服務費、檢列500萬元、委員郭國仁等三項提案。第二十一案主決議請中央銀行針對國際金融動態及跨境資金移動提出專案報告,委員嚴寬仁等三項提案。第二十二案請中央銀行針對匯率調節信用、鞏固逼信、外匯調度提出專案報告,委員嚴寬仁等三項提案。第二十三案請中央銀行針對如何避免再次被列為美國匯率操縱國觀察名單,提出書面報告,委員李坤誠等三項提案。第二十四案"},{"start":2608.772,"end":2615.157,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理"},{"start":2632.33,"end":2648.093,"text":"情勢、央行外幣資產、美國債券之偵檢、提出信用報告、委員營管等三項提案、第二期案、要求中央銀行提出旅遊經濟委員操作檢討報告、委員公關等三項提案、第二十八案、請中央銀行就理一次選擇性信用管制措施、成效及檢視標準"},{"start":2649.054,"end":2676.314,"text":"提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等三項提案。（第二九案請中央銀行針對銀行建築放款趨近法定及內部警戒上限提出書面報告委員嚴寬等三項提案。（第三十案請中央銀行檢討選擇性信用管制措施的使用時機並針對相關問題提出檢討報告委員呂坤成等三項提案。（第三十一案請中央銀行針對利潤市各銀行確實遵循信用管制並原意提告依《銀行法》38條金融檢查之頻率提出"},{"start":2677.254,"end":2698.099,"text":"順便報告委員黃世堅等三項提案。（第三十二案（請中央銀行就金融監督管理委員會進行不斷場專案精檢之分工及近三年不斷場專案檢查之次數、檢查狀況與後續處置（提出順便報告委員黃珊珊等三項提案。（第三十三案（改當今年不斷場狀態近期住宅價格能呈現上漲趨勢,稍後見到信用管制之效果"},{"start":2700.2,"end":2716.771,"text":"金融公司等內金融公司以建建方式將信用資源流向不動產市場底下信用管制措施的結果,請中央研究上述關切事項以及經濟相關措施避免影響有資料住宅需求民眾,提出書面報告,委員郭國仁等上提案。"},{"start":2718.132,"end":2736.802,"text":"建議中央銀行未來推出相關政策因加強貧窮作業與各相關單位與溝通協調提出書面報告委員王航英等三項提案。第35案請中央銀行就按計公開CPTC發展與推動進展報告計畫提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等三項提案。第36案央行業務完成"},{"start":2737.202,"end":2741.604,"text":"抵華型及零售型央行數位貨幣試驗,要求中央銀行掌握發展趨勢,堅以堅禮沙盒方式進行試驗,與風險控制下加速數位貨幣進展發"},{"start":2749.839,"end":2774.746,"text":"發展進程（並提出書面報告委員劉明采等三人提案。（第三十七案（緊張銀行針對央行對於物價通貨程度與生意期決策之考量（提出書面報告委員王世堅等三人提案。（第三十八案（緊張銀行就設置海外辦事處之成效平息及特點需求評估（提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等三人提案。（第三十九案（要求央行加強推動貨幣再流通計畫（鼓勵民眾回存零錢"},{"start":2775.866,"end":2792.934,"text":"並提出書面報告為聯名採等商人提案。（第40案請中央銀行就各國委託海外印製鈔票報告及海外特長央行受託、印製鈔券、鑄造硬幣、印製護照之可行性及法制延期提出書面報告。（第41案請中央銀行就"},{"start":2795.696,"end":2818.155,"text":"為防免未差幣之改版需求評估,及借盡日超改版對我國未來超進改版或推展輸入貨幣之成本推估,提出書面報告,委員黃珊珊等三案提案。第42案,請周恩郎就提升周恩郎社群宣傳效能之計畫,提出書面報告,委員黃珊珊等三案提案。中央在立場共事案。第一案"},{"start":2820.305,"end":2836.645,"text":"本期金利增列200萬元為納稅保等三項提案。第二案銷售成本向下銷售成本減列3000萬元為理業業等三項提案。第三案銷售成本向下銷售成本減列2000萬元為成業增等三項提案。第四案"},{"start":2838.524,"end":2847.767,"text":"營業發展費用凍結100萬元為耐斯堡等三人提案。專業資產共5萬。本集經濟增略1500萬元為耐斯堡等三人提案。營業費用向下業務費用減略200萬元為成居增等三人提案。管理費用減略300萬元為耐斯堡等三人提案。"},{"start":2859.151,"end":2876.699,"text":"管理費用凍結800萬元委員代會員等三項提案。（第五案研究發展費用凍結400萬元委員代會員等三項提案。財政部稅率部分共35萬。（第一案臺北國稅局綜合所得稅增列2918710委員代事保等三項提案。（第二案"},{"start":2878.099,"end":2892.529,"text":"綜合所得稅增頁4億5千萬元為耐斯堡等商人提案。第三案北區國稅局綜合所得稅增頁24億元為耐斯堡等商人提案。第四案中區國稅局綜合所得稅增頁7億2千萬元為耐斯堡等商人提案。第五案"},{"start":2893.189,"end":2912.794,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理�"},{"start":2923.39,"end":2946.685,"text":"五億八千萬元為賣失保等三年提案。（第十二案高雄國際局證預算增列一億一千萬元為賣失保等三年提案。（第十三案北區國際局證預算增列三億六千萬元為賣失保等三年提案。（第十四案中區國際局證預算增列兩億元為賣失保等三年提案。（第十五案南區國際局證預算增列九千萬元為賣失保等三年提案。（第十六案關務署"},{"start":2948.326,"end":2965.843,"text":"關稅增列6億元為那4百等3年提案。（第17案,臺北國稅局證券交易稅增列38億元為那4百等3年提案。（第18案,高雄國稅局證券交易稅增列4億元為那4百等3年提案。（第19案,北區國稅局證券交易稅增列10億元為那4百等3年提案。"},{"start":2966.283,"end":2981.705,"text":"第二十案中區國稅局證券交易稅增列7億元為賣400等三人提案。第二十一案南區國稅局證券交易稅增列4億元為賣400等三人提案。臺北國稅局期貸交易稅增列8億8千萬元為賣400等三人提案。第二十三案臺北國稅局"},{"start":2982.906,"end":2999.995,"text":"營業稅增列24億元為那48等3人提案。第24案高雄國稅局營業稅增列618000萬元為那48等3人提案。第25案北區國稅局營業稅增列917000萬元為那48等3人提案。第26案中區國稅局營業稅增列614000萬元為那48等3人提案。第27案南區國稅局營業稅增列3億元為那48等3人提案。第28案國有財產署"},{"start":3006.797,"end":3014.178,"text":"權利金增頁5億元為納斯堡等三人提案。第二十九案,國有財政署租金收入增頁1億元為納斯堡等三人提案。第三十案,"},{"start":3017.035,"end":3040.405,"text":"營業基金營餘繳庫增略一千萬元為顏寬恆等私人提案。第31案股息紅利繳庫增略八億元為郭國文等商人提案。第32案股息紅利繳庫增略六億元為麥斯堡等商人提案。第33案股息紅利繳庫增略一億元為顏寬恆等私人提案。第34案投資股息紅利增略八億元為郭國文等商人提案。第35案其他財政"},{"start":3041.805,"end":3066.651,"text":"國庫署其他雜項收入增略6000萬元為納稅法等三案提案。（財政部歲出部分共55案一般行政減略200萬元為成益增等三案提案。（第二案一般行政凍結1000萬元為納稅人等三案提案。（第三案一般行政向下業務費減略200萬元凍結5%為理業協等三案提案。（第四案基本行政工作維持向下業務費"},{"start":3069.74,"end":3084.845,"text":"動節15%委員黃珊珊等4人提案。第五案。業務費動節15%委員黃珊珊等4人提案。第六案。業務費動節15%委員黃珊珊等3人提案。第七案。業務費動節15%委員黃珊珊等4人提案。第八案。業務費動節30萬元委員黃珊珊等4人提案。第九案。業務費動節300萬元委員黃珊珊等4人提案。第十案。"},{"start":3097.201,"end":3123.263,"text":"業務費凍結300萬元為黃珊珊等3人提案。第11案業務費凍結300萬元為黃珊珊等4人提案。第12案業務費凍結180萬元為郭國仁等3人提案。第13案業務費向下、教育訓練費凍結10分之1為顏官等4人提案。第14案基本行政工作維持向下、水電費減月100萬元為賴思寶等3人提案。第15案"},{"start":3125.03,"end":3139.821,"text":"約會下校委方會凍結20萬元委員黃雙雙等3人提案。第16案一般事務會減業100萬元委員賴思寶等3人提案。第17案一般事務會凍結五分之一委員顏寬等3人提案。第18案一般事務會凍結五分之一委員顏寬等4人提案。第19案一般事務會凍結凍結三分之一委員文綱"},{"start":3149.076,"end":3174.136,"text":"委員員可案等4人提案。第20案財政委員吳希念檢列20萬元委員陳益臻等3人提案。第21案業務費向下一般事業費檢列10萬元委員黃珊珊等4人提案。第22案促商業務檢列100萬元委員陳益臻等3人提案。第23案促商業務凍結10分之1委員李坤成等3人提案。第24案促商業務凍結10%委員陳益臻等3人提案。第25案"},{"start":3176.037,"end":3192.565,"text":"促進民間參與公共建設業務凍結900萬元為耐霍元等三領提案。（處理（促進民間參與公共建設業務凍結5%為王航元等三領提案。（處理（促進民間參與公共建設業務向下業務費凍結1%為袁寬元等三領提案。（業務費凍結30%為王世堅等三領提案。"},{"start":3198.962,"end":3215.471,"text":"業務費凍結5%委員黃珊珊等4人提案。（第三十案業務費凍結100萬元委員郭國仁等3人提案。（第三十二案業務費向下委辦費減略100萬元委員賴思寶等3人提案。（第三十三案業務費向下一班事務費減略1000萬元委員黃思堅等3人提案。（第三十四案"},{"start":3225.033,"end":3244.449,"text":"處理（設備及投資向下資訊兩硬體設備檢列300萬元委員郭國榮等三人提案。（第三十五案捐助支出凍結500萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案。（第三十六案對亞洲開發銀行國內資源調配信託基金捐助檢列3300萬元凍結3300萬元委員郭國榮等三人提案。（第三十七案"},{"start":3245.646,"end":3264.149,"text":"對老舊開發銀行、國內資源調配信託基金均注凍結3000萬元為盈眶銀等三項提案。（第三高案中美洲銀行股本凍結1000萬元為盈里坤城等三項提案。（第三一九案對公家人員保險、養老給付補助凍結10分之一為盈里坤城等三項提案。（"},{"start":3266.363,"end":3276.268,"text":"主決議第40案,要求財政部提出九年用電計劃提出書面報告,為李寬成等三領提案。第41案,要求財政部整理歷年提前"},{"start":3277.403,"end":3305.548,"text":"提前解約出章案件並進行個案分析並提出書面報告委員李坤城等三案提案。（第四十二案要求財政部針對最近10年特別預算條例中略有排除適用預算法、公共債務法或財政紀律法等相關規範提出檢討分析對國家財政負擔影響及稅收、財政稅收是否有助益並提出具體作法委員賴世寶等三案提案。（第四十三案2014年稅客收入增略"},{"start":3306.628,"end":3330.678,"text":"編列政府是否精準（請財政部就外界對稅客收入編列之予以提出書面報告。（編列政府就外界對稅客收入編列之予以提出書面報告。編列政府就外界對稅客收入編列之予以提出書面報告。編列政府就外界對稅客收入編列之予以提出書面報告。編列政府就外界對稅客收入編列之予以提出書面報告。編列政府就外界對稅客收入編列之予以提出書面報告。編列政府就外界對稅客收入編列之予以提出書面報告。編列政府就外界對稅客收入編列之予以"},{"start":3334.721,"end":3352.402,"text":"年總薪資之半數以提升年輕人對於生意意願並提出記錄作法、委員賴世保等三項提案。（第46案由此財政部對美國主要出口產品提出相對應關稅變動策略或財政補貼預言因應,及分析對政府相關借出口關稅可能造成影響,提出具體作法、委員賴世保等三項提案。"},{"start":3353.163,"end":3376.446,"text":"第47案（請財政部就110年迄今餘月稅徵起情形及稅源結構分析提出書面報告委員黃湘湘等4人提案。第48案（請財政部就專案在保險公司承擔之政策性任務盤點及未來財政部對及事故計畫提出書面報告委員黃湘湘等4人提案。第49案（財政部應督促所屬機關、所轄、公股事業及其轉投資事業"},{"start":3377.367,"end":3391.247,"text":"在網路平台外面遵循我國法令規定﹐積極配合我國政府打造行動之前暫停所有廣告投放。委員郭國榮等三案提案。第五十案。藉由出張案件提前解約後,恐發生設施設置不全,蓋處理或資產限制情形,請財政部"},{"start":3392.869,"end":3413.463,"text":"針對各類解約案件後續處置方式及現行處理情形提出書面報告委員兵兵兵服等三項提案。第51案捐助支出鄉下編列對亞洲開發銀行國會資源調配信託基金捐助6600萬元。藉此財政部就此筆捐助預算提出具體之捐助效益專案報告委員陳醫生等三項提案。第52案"},{"start":3415.004,"end":3439.354,"text":"投資支出向下編列中美中銀行股本兩億期間625萬元。（建議財政部就此比捐助預算提出具體改善專案報告委員陳玉珍等三項提案。（第五十三案中央政府至今尚無發行相關永續發展債券。（要求財政部敦促相關機關去研議規劃進度提出精準時程說明並提出疏運報告委員林德甫等三項提案。（第六十四案要求財政部對於永續發展債券的規劃"},{"start":3442.655,"end":3468.198,"text":"提出具體規劃委員李崑禎等商人提案。（第五書五案財政部印刷所114年度預算案編列營業收入6億41929萬7千元請財務部針對相關營業狀況提出書面報告為您透露等商人提案。（國庫署稅出部分共32案。（第一案一般行政檢列50萬元50萬元委員陳映禎等商人提案。（第二案"},{"start":3469.139,"end":3483.94,"text":"一般行政凍結一千萬元為難用人等三人提案。第三案基本行政工作額及相效優惠費凍結的百分之五為黃三三等三人提案。第四案業務費凍結的百分之五為黃三三等三人提案。第五案業務費凍結的百分之五為黃三三等三人提案。第六案"},{"start":3484.821,"end":3499.629,"text":"國庫預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":3510.494,"end":3526.61,"text":"國庫業務向下通訊費簡略150萬元為脈試法等三人提案。（第14案國庫及職務管理向下業務費凍結10%為人房商商等三人提案。（第15案國庫及職務管理向下一般事務費凍結5%為人理工業等三人提案。（第16案"},{"start":3528.877,"end":3544.006,"text":"最後管理作業向下業務費凍結31%委員員方案等4人提案。（第17案最後管理削減業務費凍結30%委員王思興等3人提案。（第18案業務費減列30萬元委員賴思寶等3人提案。（第19案財務規劃作業凍結5%委員林英秀等3人提案。（第20案財務規劃作業凍結5%委員黃雙雙等3人提案。（第21案"},{"start":3554.434,"end":3564.903,"text":"公股管理作業、鄉下業務費、減利二十萬元、委員黃思堅等三人提案。（第二十二案公股管理作業凍結百分之三十、委員營寬等四人提案。（第二十三案公股管理作業"},{"start":3566.789,"end":3591.795,"text":"動決10分之1委員、賴慧妍等3人提案。第二十四案。菸酒管理作業動決5%委員、黃珊珊等3人提案。第二十五案。菸酒管理作業向下委方會減借500萬元委員、賴思寶等3人提案。第二十六案。施烈恩品查記作業動決10%委員、閻光燕等3人提案。第二十七案。施烈恩品查記動決5%委員、黃珊珊等3人提案。第二十八案。施烈恩品查記作業動決200萬元委員、郭國仁等3人提案。第二十九案。"},{"start":3593.163,"end":3621.725,"text":"施列原品查緝作業向下一般事務費檢列700萬元為耐世保等三年提案。（第三十案國債戶息向下債務利息檢列60億元為耐世保等三年提案。（第三十一案國債經理向下手續費檢列2100萬元為耐世保等三年提案。（第三十二案主決議請財政部、國庫署以演繹公共公益彩券合理借牌經營方式同時提供弱勢經營者貸款方案其諸項目報告為王思堅等三年提案財政資訊中心提案共18案。（第一案"},{"start":3622.586,"end":3645.955,"text":"一般行政檢列200萬元委員陳一貞等三案提案。第二案財政資訊業務檢列500萬元委員陳一貞等三案提案。第三案財政資訊業務檢列500萬元委員陳一貞等三案提案。第四案財政資訊業務檢列500萬元委員陳一貞等三案提案。第五案財政資訊業務檢列200萬元委員陳一貞等三案提案。第六案財政資訊業務凍結10%委員陳一貞等三案提案。第七案財政資訊業務凍結500萬元委員黃珊珊等三案提案。第八案"},{"start":3652.291,"end":3669.577,"text":"綜合規劃管理向下資訊服務費檢驗200萬元為賴思寶等三案提案。（第九案綜合規劃管理向下國外禮費凍結1%為袁寬恆等四人提案。（第十案綜合規劃管理向下國外禮費凍結5%為黃珊珊等三案提案。（"},{"start":3671.547,"end":3697.648,"text":"派員出國計劃凍結5%委員李燕秀等3案提案。（第12案國稅核課系統及資料集中處理經費向下資訊付費減列900萬元委員賴世保等3案提案。（第13案資通資源管理減列1000萬元委員賴世保等3案提案。（第14案財政資訊資料管理向下資訊付費減列300萬元委員賴世保等3案提案。（第15案電子發料管理經費凍結5%委員黃珊珊等3案提案。（"},{"start":3700.356,"end":3726.43,"text":"第16案,電子發票管理凍結5%委員黃珊珊等三人提案。（第17案,電子發票管理經費向下一般事務費凍結1%委員雲寬等四人提案。（第18案,電子發票管理經費向下資訊軟硬體設備費減略500萬元委員賴世寶等三人提案。（中央政府債務基金提案共識案第一案,債務還本收入減略51元委員黃珊珊等三人提案。（第二案,"},{"start":3728.851,"end":3747.148,"text":"財務稅務費支出檢列2100萬元,委員賴世保等三人提案。第三案,財務複習支出檢列261元,委員賴世保等三人提案。第四案第四案主決議,請財政部就財務管理關鍵績效指標之檢討與公告提出書面報告,委員黃珊珊等三人提案。宣布完畢"},{"start":3754.175,"end":3757.64,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":3876.616,"end":3905.379,"text":"好 我們現在預算審查開始那首先我們先從中央銀行含中央印製廠跟中央造幣廠的預算那首先第一案是吳立華委員就是他的服務費用跟專業服務費1758萬元凍結10%那那個吳立華委員已經改成主結役那接著我們就是進入到中央銀行那中央銀行就是在"},{"start":3907.042,"end":3916.249,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":3937.042,"end":3950.285,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":3963.467,"end":3966.028,"text":"第11屆第2會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":3986.394,"end":3989.136,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4002.807,"end":4004.309,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4018.086,"end":4043.407,"text":"那郭委員,郭委員沒有在現場那再來我們進入到第6案第6案也是併到第1案那個賴思寶委員的第6案,簡略8億元也一併併到第1案對第5案,第5案他那個郭委員他還同意說要撤案撤案嗎?"},{"start":4044.957,"end":4048.22,"text":"五、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":4072.996,"end":4077.279,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":4092.712,"end":4095.333,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4115.543,"end":4118.786,"text":"第三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":4138.493,"end":4144.919,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4160.594,"end":4163.277,"text":"第7案、第8案李燕秀委員、陳奕臻委員的檢列第7案、第8案檢列為20萬"},{"start":4175.06,"end":4176.361,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":4205.961,"end":4210.124,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4235.14,"end":4240.324,"text":"有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4259.42,"end":4273.147,"text":"將調整的科目就給議事人員。接著我們來處理第12到第14案的併案處理,都是金融保險成本下面的花型我們的鈔券會用。"},{"start":4277.169,"end":4287.873,"text":"簡略第12案陳一貞委員第13案李燕秀委員第14案郭國文委員簡略跟凍結我們都一起來討論請陳一貞委員針對第12案簡略吳議員請你說明一下簡略吳議員"},{"start":4305.509,"end":4306.69,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4322.087,"end":4325.01,"text":"第15到第16案並案處理都是營業費用,那下面下的那個業務費用"},{"start":4344.727,"end":4357.911,"text":"針對第15案凍結一役為賴慧妍委員提出改成主結役第16案凍結一役改成主結役也是賴慧妍委員提出進入第17到20案一起討論完以後我們再處理營業的會用、下面的管理會用"},{"start":4367.535,"end":4395.289,"text":"第17案就是那個剪裂那個剪裂這個營業費用向的這個管理費用一千萬是陳一貞委員提出來的那是不是請陳一貞委員來我們請央行說明一下多付給IBM的為何增加一千萬我們114年度有一個計畫就是平台轉換的計畫就是IBM平台轉換的計畫"},{"start":4398.991,"end":4423.499,"text":"主機要換主機要增加這麼多錢嗎?當然還有一些資安的軟體目前現階段有一些有關的軟體以前可能會購買無形資產分幾年攤銷但是現在都是按月或者是按年要付年費的方式所以它的費用就會增加的比較多"},{"start":4424.172,"end":4424.853,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4441.974,"end":4445.876,"text":"處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4467.93,"end":4471.534,"text":"第18、第19案,凍結關於費用,由財政委員會委員提出改成主結議。"},{"start":4483.007,"end":4506.41,"text":"接著我們進入到那個19案也一樣18跟19都是改成主決議那進入到第20案到41案的主決議一案我們就是21第21到第41主決議那我們一案一案來處理那接著我們處理就是中央照閉場"},{"start":4508.271,"end":4509.332,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4529.838,"end":4532.382,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":4548.362,"end":4548.742,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4567.902,"end":4570.403,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4597.594,"end":4602.236,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4621.385,"end":4622.665,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4649.451,"end":4652.014,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":4666.425,"end":4671.467,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4690.854,"end":4693.295,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4709.454,"end":4712.955,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4733.716,"end":4737.439,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4755.453,"end":4759.676,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4783.877,"end":4787.938,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4806.852,"end":4807.472,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度"},{"start":4834.221,"end":4834.742,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4854.802,"end":4858.644,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":4872.35,"end":4881.495,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4902.928,"end":4904.71,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4918.767,"end":4923.369,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4934.074,"end":4936.496,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":4957.733,"end":4965.436,"text":"中央印製廠第一案增列本期盡力1500萬是由賴世保委員提出的請世保委員說明"},{"start":4972.038,"end":4974.619,"text":"一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":4997.023,"end":4997.864,"text":"財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。"},{"start":5011.596,"end":5014.717,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5037.598,"end":5039.86,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5060.2,"end":5063.181,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5084.574,"end":5110.285,"text":"那第四案跟第五案那個拉惠園委員的一個凍結案都是改成主結議都是改成主結議好謝謝謝謝各位委員那今天中央銀行那個的預算已經圓滿結束那請中央銀行那個請回留下一個官員在現場聽協商的一個結論"},{"start":5111.946,"end":5117.532,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5133.342,"end":5155.867,"text":"跟各位委員致歉就是財政部本來通知他是10點15分所以不好意思請大家等一下他已經在臺大了快來了他快到了他馬上到了"},{"start":5173.43,"end":5183.193,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5209.454,"end":5220.598,"text":"委員待會我們一到二十七要用稅額收入考慮的話,都是你的提案。因為一到二十七都是你提案的。那你要給那個485塊嗎?對啊,這個有才能求。"},{"start":5234.884,"end":5236.605,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5255.208,"end":5259.23,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5277.242,"end":5281.003,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5302.431,"end":5308.532,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5334.116,"end":5339.581,"text":"對啦,我們都很仁慈的,委員都對預算不會太...委員是我的我們沒有想到央行會這麼順利"},{"start":5352.507,"end":5354.729,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5387.516,"end":5401.866,"text":"一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度"},{"start":5455.393,"end":5472.764,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5483.83,"end":5486.571,"text":"第1到第2會期財政委員會第1到第2會期財政委員會第1到第2會期財政委員會"},{"start":5511.818,"end":5518.001,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5553.309,"end":5564.511,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":5583.588,"end":5585.99,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5630.317,"end":5634.501,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5681.825,"end":5687.668,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5690.879,"end":5694.545,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5718.112,"end":5720.042,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5775.282,"end":5781.704,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5808.563,"end":5827.393,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5834.721,"end":5836.504,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":5853.069,"end":5860.142,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5866.503,"end":5868.124,"text":"臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局"},{"start":5888.283,"end":5913.718,"text":"第4案是中區國稅局第5案是這個南區國稅局那我們請陳一貞委員帶那個賴世寶委員來做說明他是說歲入的歲入因為按照往年的這個例子事實上你們都這個這個第一個錄一從錄開始對這本財政部這本這本這本對這本"},{"start":5917.588,"end":5941.35,"text":"財政部的歲入的部分首得稅首得稅的部分是第一案跟第五案這個併案是藍絲堡委員提案的這個提案是幫助你們的不然每一次你們都說超真的這個案子這個案子這個部長每一次你們財政部在這裡這事情我們一定是討論的"},{"start":5944.723,"end":5962.908,"text":"這個討論老半天到最後你們又增加增加增加很多像今年也增加了實際上又增加了這個超收了10千億以上啊甚至於我們估一估可能到5千億啊全部加起來了全部加起來4千多啊全國的4千多吧4千多"},{"start":5965.373,"end":5968.294,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":5995.992,"end":6019.814,"text":"來顧最主是有溝通但是可能委員沒有同意是在我跟委員報告一下其實我們今年度114年度預算案的部分我們已經重新有去根據專案小組的委員的建議還有我們過去實施的結果發現說還是有一些誤差存在所以我們也有重新精進的我們估算的方式"},{"start":6020.254,"end":6033.846,"text":"所以委員您只要看我們114年度的預算案比113年度預算案就已經成長19點多快將近20%可以看得出來如果以內地稅來講我們成長了20.7%我是負責內地稅我們成長了20.7%那中所的部分我已經成長26.1%"},{"start":6043.414,"end":6044.274,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6064.642,"end":6065.602,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6087.765,"end":6110.915,"text":"好,世保委員這個我們都知道你這個話去年也這樣講啦去年最後也是讓我們有增加一點結果還是比原來預估的還是多很多你剛剛講增加20%增加8%都不夠啦今年來講的話今年上述貴公司的情況都非常好今年的金控都是有史以來最賺錢的"},{"start":6112.876,"end":6113.917,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":6133.393,"end":6133.793,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6147.15,"end":6154.213,"text":"財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":6176.544,"end":6188.909,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":6205.607,"end":6207.548,"text":"關稅已經同意了,你們加一頁,你們同意了。（處理（"},{"start":6220.182,"end":6222.645,"text":"財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6237.643,"end":6240.929,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6253.652,"end":6257.857,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6277.755,"end":6297.08,"text":"財政部長,這每年每次的同樣的,我記得都是賴思寶委員在提案的部分。你就參考一下去年的部分,到底是折衷的結果大概幾%嗎?這樣子來處理就比較快啦?是啊是啊,因為去年大概是賴委員就是總體增加,我記得是增加"},{"start":6298.874,"end":6301.295,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6315.12,"end":6339.965,"text":"但是去年是增加150...不好意思賴委員我再講一下那你今年有沒有按照以往的方式讓人家感覺到你是低劣的方式你如果沒有的話你要講出來是不是還是要按照150億這兩個都一起講去年的數字跟你今年編的方式有沒有什麼不同這兩個一起講然後來跟委員會說明這樣會比較直接了當一點好不好不然一項一項審你要審到什麼時候"},{"start":6341.883,"end":6342.783,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6365.532,"end":6366.052,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6387.878,"end":6389.659,"text":"總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":6419.194,"end":6427.061,"text":"一到二十七案我學問在現場的委員就是一到二十七案我們就是全部併案那所有的稅務都不分"},{"start":6445.572,"end":6449.755,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6476.715,"end":6476.915,"text":"處理（處理（處理（"},{"start":6500.191,"end":6500.731,"text":"舉債也不行增加舉債因為舉債是有的"},{"start":6529.525,"end":6532.026,"text":"預算部分有關財政部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6558.118,"end":6559.259,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6578.181,"end":6581.162,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6607.93,"end":6625.711,"text":"好 那個 那請問在現場的委員 那個過關委員你要不要補充一下好 那署長好像還不能接受他一臉痛苦的樣子啊部長可以接受我回來壓榨他們部長部長你答案也好"},{"start":6628.262,"end":6629.363,"text":"處理（處理（處理（處理（"},{"start":6649.36,"end":6651.841,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6672.48,"end":6686.866,"text":"一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6699.929,"end":6707.858,"text":"好,那我們回到第28案那就是針裂權益均1.5億那對請問第28案那是把委員提案針裂那個"},{"start":6719.537,"end":6726.541,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":6745.168,"end":6752.911,"text":"中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央"},{"start":6775.478,"end":6779.26,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6802.903,"end":6828.69,"text":"我提案這邊說明一下我本來是有提到說有關於這個臺灣金控的部分的利息收入增略到5億那土銀的部分的股息收入增略到3億那合計增略8億那他們有來跟我溝通我基本上同意這兩個加起來是2億用這種方式來做處理好不好這樣提高這個財務結構才有利於長久經營謝謝"},{"start":6831.616,"end":6857.406,"text":"好,謝謝國文委員的提案說明,那是不是那個...不是啊,我...這個...國文不要客氣,我這裡...他們跟我談的結果是2.5億啦2.5億啦好不好我比較好講話阿你執政黨沒關係啦,2.5億啦好不好,你們都同意了就加起來2.5億啦我們就3個啦,3個啦3個啦,3個一起那個他加碼的啦"},{"start":6861.738,"end":6890.495,"text":"好,那個部長,好,那就是第30到33案齁,我們...我們都開客氣啦,台銀一加的話最少都要增加5億以上了,這個土銀要2億以上了,就是國共委員寫的這個寫得很好,台灣金礦增加5億,土銀3億,這個都寫得很好,我都覺得按照國共委員提案給他通過才對,這個..."},{"start":6892.884,"end":6898.807,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":6922.185,"end":6935.47,"text":"我們現在給你委員們給你這麼客氣你們一邊賺更多有嫦娥的淫魚我們在這裡就講一個東西大家同意的好不好報告主席優先用於照顧員工福利"},{"start":6936.659,"end":6939.181,"text":"財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分"},{"start":6960.599,"end":6979.275,"text":"部長我聽說臺銀跟土銀現在先進人員起薪都三萬八左右太低了太低了真的這個要正視這個問題臺銀跟土銀很難考啊又念很多書啊沒有戴玉聽說的戴玉怎麼都比外面低誰要到國家現在很少人去考公共報名都還不足了啦"},{"start":6979.875,"end":6980.996,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":7011.056,"end":7013.076,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7038.826,"end":7039.347,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":7052.35,"end":7053.611,"text":"現在人種可惡的地方就在於說單一信奉"},{"start":7076.284,"end":7080.568,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":7098.868,"end":7105.511,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7128.007,"end":7139.773,"text":"那我們再進入第34案是國管委員那個股息那個股投資股息紅利請郭委員那個提案說明"},{"start":7141.608,"end":7142.249,"text":"財政部做說明"},{"start":7162.942,"end":7170.07,"text":"國庫署陳書長因為公股銀行這些犯公股的本身的鼓勵又要經過董事會、股東會的同意"},{"start":7184.884,"end":7203.569,"text":"整個過程他們其實會比較難以確定那事實上我們今年也已經編了86億多比上去年81億已經多了那委員剛剛郭委員這邊建議說提高整數87我們這邊就心安接受"},{"start":7208.288,"end":7221.991,"text":"好,那這個要增略多少勒?整數也是8億87億增加到87億4108一個整數4千萬好嗎?7億才是整數啦你4千萬沒整數啦預算上沒有整數啦"},{"start":7238.837,"end":7239.337,"text":"四千零八千塊"},{"start":7267.958,"end":7293.517,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理�"},{"start":7296.425,"end":7299.988,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7320.849,"end":7339.41,"text":"來第一案跟第二案並案那第一案檢列一般行政兩百萬請提案委員陳一貞委員做說明我覺得這個財政部有來說明後我覺得應該不用刪了要撤案了要說明很清楚了"},{"start":7341.228,"end":7368.124,"text":"陳一貞委員第一案是測案第二案是一般行政凍結1000萬是我提出的是不是也這個詐案通過改成主決議好了這個是公務來得及解凍嗎公務預算財政部說明一下好不好"},{"start":7369.531,"end":7371.734,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":7386.121,"end":7388.903,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7410.992,"end":7437.14,"text":"陳彥秀陳彥秀委員李彥秀阿為什麼打成這個樣子勒?李彥秀啦那個可能楊處長你要說明好報告報告各位那一個委員已經簽名了改成主決議第三個月內提出書面報告你們給我這樣的資料我怎麼敢主持會議呢全部的文字這麼多的一個錯誤"},{"start":7448.171,"end":7449.832,"text":"第三案改成主決議。"},{"start":7456.964,"end":7480.541,"text":"第4案到第6案這個提案是黃珊珊委員全部是凍結15%但是凍結的理由不一樣我們是請黃珊珊委員、珊珊委員做說明一下謝謝主席還有各位同仁我想就是跟剛剛講的一樣公營我們現在改成國營金融事業"},{"start":7481.928,"end":7483.029,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":7505.589,"end":7507.231,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7527.991,"end":7532.914,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7558.837,"end":7563.38,"text":"反正這個是要解決的。那我們就以第4案為主。"},{"start":7585.137,"end":7587.061,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7596.411,"end":7597.452,"text":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7619.326,"end":7620.167,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":7634.38,"end":7636.382,"text":"好,那我們第4案到11案,並案所屬的凍結。"},{"start":7652.159,"end":7654.1,"text":"主席在這裡宣布第4案到11案並按凍結10%以第4案為主"},{"start":7677.745,"end":7703.84,"text":"那請把所有的理由齁要答覆齁提案的理由要答覆齁那接著我們等一下等一下我補充一下齁第4案到11案基本上每一個案子幾乎都不一樣有遺漏稅有貨幣稅所以我們希望所謂的是一起就有動10%可是財政部的書面資料要針對每一個題目要給我們書面資料不能夠啊不讓當就就就"},{"start":7704.92,"end":7707.923,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7726.518,"end":7728.159,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分"},{"start":7738.503,"end":7755.199,"text":"主席跟各位委員因為我們事先有溝通比如說財三、第三、十跟十一其實委員都很支持都已經簽名了都改組決議了是不是剛剛那個第四案到第四案到十一案裡面是不是這幾個案子就讓他照組決議委員通過的組決議"},{"start":7757.541,"end":7783.468,"text":"裁刪已經過了那個處長是吧你不要著急這個嘛因為你們說有主決意那就按照主決意給我們一個報告只是一個書面報告而已啦你緊張什麼啦不要講這個東西啦那個書面報告把各項的理由沒有複雜啦那個沒有複雜不要越搞越複雜啦沒有啦不要越搞越複雜是不是就報告本是這樣而已報告稍微報告稍微"},{"start":7785.407,"end":7809.509,"text":"那個財九喔對財九這個案子喔因為黃山山委員這邊是提出說那個要財政修正劃分法修正查案要去預告後然後收集外界意見才能動之那這個部分是不是請黃委員可以幫我們改一下改成說修正的演繹情形"},{"start":7811.035,"end":7812.796,"text":"與3個月內提出書面報告。"},{"start":7829.233,"end":7848.815,"text":"這也是跟上會期的財政委員會決議是一樣的嗎?只是他希望你草案,就財化法的修正草案預告啊。我這邊在跟各位委員說明喔,因為整個法案喔,財政收支劃分法的修正草案已經從財委會這邊送出至於四個版本了。那目前正在...所以你們尊重我們的版本喔?這個部分齁,"},{"start":7850.925,"end":7852.347,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":7865.953,"end":7866.293,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7886.59,"end":7907.798,"text":"才有可能說這樣送是有意義的那所以是不是可以懇請黃委員這邊就把我們的研議進行我們會再就最新的狀況再跟大院這邊來做報告那討論吧先放著這個才久先保留一下嘛3314這樣這跟才化有關的保留一下"},{"start":7912.171,"end":7914.312,"text":"財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":7939.383,"end":7939.723,"text":"第12案"},{"start":7948.655,"end":7967.159,"text":"第12案就是凍結180萬提案委員是郭公文委員那請郭公文委員說明就我了解這兩項的委外研究企劃主要是針對AI所得改善的部分或者是各項的財務管理的衝擊"},{"start":7969.74,"end":7990.021,"text":"我同意改成主決議,但是要詳細說明研究的方向郭公務員針對第12案要改成主決議是不是?"},{"start":7993.439,"end":8016.406,"text":"第三案改成主決議那針對的第13案凍結業務會、教育訓練會10%是由顏寬恒委員提出的那就是那個詐案通過第14案那個檢列業務會的水電會100萬是賴世保委員提出的這個他們同意我會拍攝過檢列10萬啦"},{"start":8019.454,"end":8019.935,"text":"總預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":8034.474,"end":8039.458,"text":"第14案簡略10萬（水電會（水電會的部分簡略10萬（針對第15案凍結業務會跟那個業務會的委辦會20萬（是珊珊委員提案那是不是請珊珊委員說明一下"},{"start":8056.796,"end":8082.154,"text":"謝謝主席這個就是我們問了一下財政部他們編的這個什麼運用AI技術分析財稅大數據但是問他們要研究什麼他們也說不上來那審計部也說針對112年鼓勵所得他其實是要去做一些研議這個部分我們希望是在這個一般行政下面能夠針對鼓勵所得課稅制度如果你要去做AI數據的話"},{"start":8083.897,"end":8087.359,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8111.107,"end":8112.791,"text":"財政部．財政部本部"},{"start":8120.41,"end":8148.073,"text":"我跟委員報告現在鼓勵所得是因為我們在107年的時候做了一些改變那主要是因為我們把過去的設算課題改掉了現在變成二則一那現在鼓勵所得課外制度這部分如果委員要我們再繼續檢討我們是可以再繼續檢討啦但是說真的跟這個他們AI技術分析財稅大數據應該是沒有直接相關"},{"start":8149.514,"end":8153.196,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8178.456,"end":8179.757,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分"},{"start":8197.346,"end":8198.126,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":8211.811,"end":8212.431,"text":"提出面報告。﹗"},{"start":8244.13,"end":8254.614,"text":"那在我們進入到那個第16到23案這個併案16到23案併案討論那16案那個簡略業務會一般事務會100萬這個是立法委員提出來的有溝通的簡略20萬客戶自行調整好簡略20萬一般"},{"start":8270.161,"end":8272.664,"text":"一般事務會有沒有科目自行調整的這個問題?"},{"start":8289.793,"end":8290.213,"text":"第16案"},{"start":8304.386,"end":8306.066,"text":"十六、十七、十八就是併案,好嗎?"},{"start":8327.073,"end":8328.995,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8346.567,"end":8348.688,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8371.295,"end":8375.357,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。"},{"start":8401.601,"end":8406.002,"text":"第17案,我們跟嚴委員溝通,改為主決議,那嚴委員也已經簽名了。"},{"start":8421.316,"end":8423.897,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8444.207,"end":8446.348,"text":"總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":8469.936,"end":8474.179,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8493.112,"end":8511.929,"text":"第18案,嚴寬衡委員提案的,我們已經測案了。進入第19案。第19案的部分,我們跟嚴委員溝通以後,是簡列預算18萬元,委員同意也簽名了。"},{"start":8513.644,"end":8528.887,"text":"這個主席啊 這個第17、18都是媒體的勒我覺得這個財政部要跟我們說明一下你們是不是去找網軍啊幹什麼的這個限制性招標這是限制性招標這裡沒有問題啊這個我們就是跟委員報告過我們第18年我們從來沒有限制性招標都是公開招標採那一個寫計劃書那個公開批寫這樣子"},{"start":8538.749,"end":8539.169,"text":"至於說財19案一樣是這一個"},{"start":8565.23,"end":8577.737,"text":"媒體那個文宣的部分那希望跟前面那一個委員並16案16案來一起處理那就是18萬就對了減裂20萬因為前面16案是20萬所以沒併就16跟19是並一起減裂20萬16跟19減裂20萬就一起的嘛16到19那委員的跟那個顏坤委員的原來顏坤是18萬嘛阿這個那委員是20萬就統一減20萬同一個項啊"},{"start":8595.601,"end":8608.572,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度"},{"start":8624.383,"end":8625.184,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8641.903,"end":8646.965,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8669.797,"end":8671.438,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8680.916,"end":8693.261,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8708.393,"end":8709.956,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8721.678,"end":8723.74,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":8747.433,"end":8747.874,"text":"第二十三案凍結促參業務"},{"start":8767.441,"end":8768.682,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":8782.312,"end":8783.473,"text":"我補充一下好不好,那個"},{"start":8810.315,"end":8828.334,"text":"黃珊珊委員的30案其實是跟這個是接近的啦用他的案子是不是用30案為一個內容以30案為主黃珊珊委員的案子啦好不好以黃珊珊委員的案子講同一件事情用他的提案好不好"},{"start":8829.51,"end":8838.007,"text":"還是要跟陳委員說明一下,因為不是在單純以這件事情,其實那只是一個舉例引子而已,足以看清內容,後半段才是關鍵"},{"start":8841.104,"end":8844.006,"text":"本席在這裡宣布那個第23案跟30案病案那就是凍結業務會5%"},{"start":8869.246,"end":8875.689,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":8893.103,"end":8896.246,"text":"减業務費5趴,凍結5趴,以30案為主。我們進入到第25案,也是凍結出餐的業務。"},{"start":8911.818,"end":8914.56,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":8929.985,"end":8939.507,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度"},{"start":8955.511,"end":8969.597,"text":"主席各位同仁,我覺得財政部在促參的這個部分成績做得不好,不當一回事,所以我主張要凍結30%。那我的看法就是說,事實上102年到110年這9年當中,總共他們編的費用7億,"},{"start":8976.069,"end":8979.071,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":9006.223,"end":9006.923,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9028.001,"end":9041.073,"text":"所以主席我認為說為了改善這個促餐推動的成效是不是也要納入強制仲裁對促餐案應該納入強制仲裁"},{"start":9042.062,"end":9043.664,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9059.483,"end":9062.846,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9077.526,"end":9101.715,"text":"就我們解約的部分陳如剛委員有說的就是我們109到12的確是13件、8件、6件、9件但是我們113年到現在為止我們大概就是3件大概已經有減少了那另外我們為了說不要讓這個案子一直解約我們有增加一些調解的一個機制那我們從去年1、2年7月才開始有這個調解機制"},{"start":9103.797,"end":9109.6,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9133.203,"end":9133.343,"text":"處理（處理（"},{"start":9154.383,"end":9182.285,"text":"你沒有什麼強制性的啊沒有什麼可以有我剛為什麼說仲裁啦仲裁其實最好的方式那雙方都公平嘛那麼仲裁用在很多我們大型公共建設像台北市的捷運那幾乎有爭議的都用仲裁都會很快速的解決而且雙方也都非常的合意"},{"start":9184.372,"end":9208.087,"text":"為什麼不強制仲裁呢?如果調解不成的話,調解應該快速,因為如果雙方各有一些看法覺得可以折衷,那調解是很好啊。可是有的根本我們甲方還是踩得很死,只要有一方踩得很死的時候,那訴訟又曠日廢時嘛。"},{"start":9210.905,"end":9237.617,"text":"所以我認為是不是強制可以仲裁用這個方式是不是可以更快的解決這些爭端還有我主要是針對你們財政部因為業務太廣了那因為你們都在以收稅收錢為主嘛以管理這些國產為主所以你把這個促成的推動我看你們都好像吊郎當令你看建樹這麼少對不對"},{"start":9240.506,"end":9240.926,"text":"財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心"},{"start":9262.551,"end":9263.011,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9280.923,"end":9308.157,"text":"提出一些建議,讓契約可以繼續往下走。這個是最主要是透過調解,事實上可以減少雙方的徵送。我想這個部分是第一個,在初三法修正的時候就加進去了。第二個部分就是仲裁的部分,曾經我們也想加入強制仲裁,但是因為法界的人認為說仲裁是以雙方合一,但我們知道採購的部分它是有假方,如果提出仲裁,以方不得而拒絕,因為"},{"start":9308.937,"end":9309.918,"text":"總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9328.434,"end":9329.135,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9343.883,"end":9348.265,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9373.436,"end":9375.18,"text":"及所屬單位、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":9385.598,"end":9391.962,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9411.693,"end":9415.654,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度"},{"start":9438.422,"end":9442.624,"text":"政府有一個很重要的是住宅法,住宅法也是希望政府能夠鼓勵民間興辦,不過到現在為止好像也很少看到真的有民間來興辦。"},{"start":9463.815,"end":9492.002,"text":"有關社宅、住宿型長照機構或者是電動車、電動樁,我們希望它都應該有一些相關的機制,所以我們希望同意,我們可以同意病棟,但是也是希望他們要提出這些的機制。這個不是初餐嗎?一起嗎?那個,跟前面那個初餐一起嗎?只是說,金額是病嗎?那個主席啊。沒有沒有,28,28是10%主席啊,五三十一案也是類似啊,就病案處理好了。數額是病案處理啊。"},{"start":9493.141,"end":9509.135,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9522.073,"end":9526.482,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9531.144,"end":9532.484,"text":"有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":9554.602,"end":9565.649,"text":"好,接著我們進入到第32案那個檢列檢列是賴思寶委員提案好,那個經過那個修好,經過那個溝通是檢列70,檢列70萬好,科目自行調整好,那科目自行調整"},{"start":9584.002,"end":9585.125,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9593.789,"end":9610.778,"text":"那我們進入到第33案這是王世堅委員的一個提案簡略那是不是世堅委員請說明那個謝謝主席主席就是說在這個部分他有一個金破獎的評審費光這個評審費就450萬這並沒有這並不是實際的獎勵金而且關注度很低"},{"start":9619.744,"end":9625.371,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9637.702,"end":9665.072,"text":"另外第二點就是說從民國91年到現在提前剛提到的促參提前終止契約的比例達到12%啦達到12%終止的金額高達1300億所以我認為這部分他們的成效確實不髒那麼我認為說如果發放獎勵金的方式"},{"start":9666.493,"end":9666.793,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度"},{"start":9683.812,"end":9685.975,"text":"處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9698.871,"end":9700.854,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9716.098,"end":9719.88,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9733.865,"end":9739.111,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9751.365,"end":9778.224,"text":"那查了之後我們才有就是因為我們都是外部委員我們大概有10個外部委員那我們內部委員大概才兩位那我們是經由說這些外部委員我們看評審出一個真的可以當標竿楷模的一些案子然後給縣市政府想要辦這些案子的人可以參考譬如說我們今年有電業設施啊有一些醫院的醫療設施還有污水下水道設施等等"},{"start":9779.245,"end":9780.267,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9798.288,"end":9816.903,"text":"因為王世元委員提案在這邊我是尊重他的提案不過就實質的業務內容當中我想就我理解的部分你應該做一個分享因為經過獎的部分也不是隨隨便便就可以拿到經過獎因為我確實有知道台南市政府會拿到一個經過獎是在路邊停車的部分那個案例其實做了算"},{"start":9817.743,"end":9845.405,"text":"相當成功。我想他就這個案例來說的話我在這個評審機制上就最後的結果來看是有實至名歸啦我必須做一個這個第一個分享那第二個部分呢出產業務確實是屢屢會發生一些爭議跟調解但是爭議跟調解有時候是兩照雙方也未必是哪一方的問題那有些確實是一開始非常的"},{"start":9846.165,"end":9865.573,"text":"熱情澎湃去參與促餐,但是後來決定傻手不管,就形成爭議的案件我也有聽聞過,其實還要看案件的內容本身。我是覺得但是王事監委員說提出的這個也是一個要求跟期待,那是不是要三點那麼多的經費,恐怕是部長跟主管應該出來幫下屬講個話會比較好一點。"},{"start":9868.956,"end":9888.981,"text":"來,那個部長是不是再補充?我先補充一下,經過講,其實是促參屆的一個盛事。他的頒獎對象除了政府的主辦機關之外,還有民間機構。因為他的必須要這個案件完成,而且在營運了。"},{"start":9889.921,"end":9893.602,"text":"有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":9918.567,"end":9919.228,"text":"中央政府總預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":9939.727,"end":9940.487,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":9955.396,"end":9973.079,"text":"對於交通整個資訊的收集對於一個縣市政府對於整個交通的規劃其實是有很大一個幫助所以這就是畜餐成功的案例可以不斷的推廣跟複製到其他推廣所以這個部分我們認為畜餐它當然需要再大力的推動需要用各種方式包含"},{"start":9973.72,"end":9975.361,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":10001.875,"end":10019.404,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝部長我看法是這樣出張案件本來就不多啦然後再扣除說解約的那再扣除你們現在有調解東扣西扣以後其實真的要評審的也不多啦"},{"start":10021.068,"end":10024.871,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10042.611,"end":10070.915,"text":"我認為要鼓勵民間來參與你一定要有一個公平的機制讓他們覺得說這不會有愛國裁判在那邊主導爭議的解決有人說調解是本來很好啊但畢竟調解沒有那些什麼強迫性那有時候如果說遇到愛國裁判的時候那廠商往往就是"},{"start":10071.853,"end":10072.573,"text":"處理（處理（處理（"},{"start":10095.399,"end":10098.103,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":10111.08,"end":10111.841,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10137.881,"end":10161.754,"text":"公平是最重要的一個方式是我希望您列入的那至於金額那主席是不是容我再考慮一下好不好好你想一下接著請李坤城委員那個謝謝主席因為我的案子41案其實也是跟錯參有相關的但是其實我的看法跟世間委員是差不多就是說我們這個"},{"start":10163.435,"end":10179.092,"text":"處參的提前終止契約案件數比例跟去年比起來有增加。但是我是希望說你們能夠就提前結約的案件能否進行個案分析。然後在三個月內像"},{"start":10179.633,"end":10179.793,"text":"處理（處理（"},{"start":10196.704,"end":10223.32,"text":"謝謝李委員指教確實是提前解約我們都要個案去了解原因在哪裡因為相同的錯誤不要再犯避免後面又犯同樣的錯誤然後造成提前解約我想這個部分到底是個案還是通案我們是個案分析每一個案子去瞭解它為什麼去瞭解一下有沒有通案的情況對對對把歸納出來好的我們這個部分可以我們來做一個謝謝委員的指教至少這三年這幾年這五年好了啦好不好好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":10227.841,"end":10230.564,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10245.776,"end":10271.666,"text":"好,我們遵照辦理,那接著我們進入到第34案,那個簡略,這個促進那個民間參與公共建設業務,這個300萬,那請郭公委員提案說明。郭委員。這個我已經有跟那個財政部協調了,我們就同意測案了,只要他主要是要改善治安的問題而已。"},{"start":10272.657,"end":10277.921,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":10308.069,"end":10316.615,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10331.988,"end":10338.012,"text":"中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央政府中央"},{"start":10353.118,"end":10354.459,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":10381.894,"end":10408.331,"text":"但是亞營自從中國加入之後就不斷的對我國矮化所以說這種情況底下我們要透過我們的經貿實力來增加一些國際的一個空間跟重要後盾我是覺得財政部不應該一味的退讓然後指一指張這個凱茲但是卻沒有徵集到對等的軍演這是不對的事情所以我這邊的要求就是說對這一個部分"},{"start":10412.418,"end":10413.799,"text":"部長,要不要補充一下?"},{"start":10434.747,"end":10448.844,"text":"市長跟委員報告我們在加入國內資源調配信託基金我們是在111年度加入的然後我們觀察了兩年其實這兩年針對這個信託基金我們爭取了一個"},{"start":10449.484,"end":10452.726,"text":"總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":10475.282,"end":10476.043,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10494.618,"end":10518.073,"text":"市長那個郭委員我不是在挑戰你那個實質的內容我剛剛的這個案有想得很清楚就是說在亞營的這種態度沒有一個基本的態度出來沒有一個基本的態度出來就一味的配合我認為這是有問題的我的說法我的提案內容跟你現在的說明是不相干的OK"},{"start":10520.525,"end":10520.565,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":10550.465,"end":10551.765,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10575.47,"end":10576.692,"text":"及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10588.01,"end":10588.15,"text":"（處理（處理（處理（"},{"start":10610.434,"end":10625.65,"text":"做一些大幅的改變是有他們的困難的當然這個部分我們要不斷的表達我們的立場跟態度我想這個部分謝謝委員的一個指教那是不是在預算的部分是不是能夠如同我們剛剛說就讓我們凍結500萬然後提書面報告"},{"start":10631.986,"end":10650.325,"text":"內閣主席我覺得齁老實講他這個是repeat他之前的一個作惡我又要是他突破新的一個說法跟做法出來啦那你就再寫在書面報告當中嘛你有個具體的一個方式你就寫出來嘛好不好然後但是呢金額齁不要再跟我拉到500啦"},{"start":10651.326,"end":10652.026,"text":"主席亞洲開發銀行及中美洲資助"},{"start":10679.266,"end":10694.895,"text":"加加大概有的是金額非常的龐大我覺得究竟它的實質效益在哪裡也不彰顯那整個亞洲地區我們也次於日本"},{"start":10696.812,"end":10714.485,"text":"日本這個捐也沒有捐很多阿如果以人口實力來比的話那我們應該佐以調降吧因為每一分錢都是很重要與其捐給那些什麼亞洲什麼我沒去過的這個銀行阿你倒不如捐給中華隊"},{"start":10716.667,"end":10739.634,"text":"講難聽一點昨天棒球打贏你們先質問一下你財政部從以前到現在你支援中華隊支援多少你順便講一下好了你們公股銀行一堆我知道這兩回事只是藉由這個來凸顯說捐給別人那麼大方那你有沒有照顧一下自己人部長你要不要說明一下"},{"start":10744.045,"end":10744.405,"text":"財政部長說明"},{"start":10761.004,"end":10763.007,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分"},{"start":10779.367,"end":10780.828,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":10805.849,"end":10807.99,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10833.733,"end":10858.046,"text":"專案報告之外,而且要經過同意,最重要是還是一樣希望能夠凍結,他的主張是凍結3000萬。好,那接著請那個那個羅委員好,本席也是支持凍結3000萬那也希望在這個下一次書面報告提出之前"},{"start":10859.717,"end":10887.979,"text":"那盤整一下對國內平常你們的周邊單位那麼多你給我一個數據究竟對這些國內運動塞市這些中華的建槍相關你們付出了多少的資源我們現在所有的企業都講求就是永續ESG那我也來看看財政部在今年稅收"},{"start":10888.786,"end":10912.571,"text":"也超徵近4千億的情況之下,究竟有沒有有一點實際的行動?部長你這個對亞銀從100萬增加到200萬美元,那國內的部分你又做了多少?相關資料請你們一併整理一下,或如果有你現在講也可以,謝謝。好,來國務委員。"},{"start":10916.684,"end":10933.824,"text":"主席我的建議是這樣子,我覺得農民財委員他提到的關於財政部所屬的公股銀行、國公銀行的這個部分對運動賽事的這一個支持的狀況我是建議說是不是要另外批一個專案來做報告,不要跟這個案子混在一起"},{"start":10934.705,"end":10956.968,"text":"那特別是對棒球的部分,或者是土銀也相當成功,對於毛球的這個資助的部分,其實這個都可以拿來做一個列舉,讓外界知道說國公、國公銀行、公股銀行、泛公股銀行的基本的態度,那是如何,也不要讓外界誤會說好像公股銀行只進不出,也不是如此嘛。"},{"start":10957.569,"end":10960.91,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":10977.301,"end":10978.522,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11010.043,"end":11012.244,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11033.403,"end":11055.945,"text":"一個月喔一個月好那這樣子我們進入第38案那個凍結投資的支出那個中美洲銀行的股本1000萬李昆城李昆城委員已經改成主決議那再來我們進入第39案其實案子都是一樣啦就是不管是中美洲還有亞洲銀行其實大家關心的都一樣啦"},{"start":11056.485,"end":11059.929,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11066.196,"end":11090.455,"text":"第11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲"},{"start":11097.543,"end":11098.744,"text":"律師寶委員律師寶委員律師寶委員"},{"start":11113.412,"end":11122.342,"text":"第42案文字通過文字修正通過再來針對第43案是民都府委員提案"},{"start":11129.15,"end":11148.802,"text":"請財政部做說明一下我們這裡是不是建議一個月改為三個月提書面報告好那一個月改成三個月修正通過謝謝主席第44案是賴氏堡委員提案那就是改書面那就修正通過是謝謝"},{"start":11151.109,"end":11166.937,"text":"第45案是賴氏堡委員改提書面,那就修正通過。46案是賴氏堡委員提案,請財政部說明一下。第46案"},{"start":11171.988,"end":11172.489,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":11191.67,"end":11211.78,"text":"那建議修正文字在這個提案的第5行這邊,後不斷原提案要求財政部會同經濟部對美國出口至臺灣的產品提出相對應的關稅變動策略那後面或財政補貼亦為因應就是刪掉"},{"start":11213.191,"end":11238.138,"text":"及分析對政府相關進出口關稅可能造成的影響,以降低對國內產業與通貨膨脹因為跟我們沒有關係,所以這一部分也建議刪掉。於三個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告。這個認識法委員同意嗎?同意。同意你也沒有讓他簽名。好像來不及簽名。為什麼會來不及呢?"},{"start":11240.094,"end":11241.036,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11255.226,"end":11261.47,"text":"第46 修正通過第47 珊珊委員遵照辦理第48 珊珊委員提案遵照辦理第49 郭國文委員遵照辦理"},{"start":11275.211,"end":11278.773,"text":"五、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":11301.185,"end":11326.402,"text":"51案是有關剛剛的資源調備信託基金那這邊剛剛陳委員剛剛陳委員要離開的時候有跟我講說51跟52我們希望他改書面他都同意好那就是第51案跟52案都是陳一貞委員那我們就改那個書面書面說明"},{"start":11328.254,"end":11356.453,"text":"好 那修正通過那我們進入到第53案林德虎委員那請財政部說明我們建議是不是改為三個月向財政委員會提出書面報告好 那改三個月修正通過那第54案李坤城委員請那個我們遵照辦理好遵照辦理照案通過那針對的第55案林德虎委員財政部"},{"start":11359.784,"end":11362.845,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。"},{"start":11382.776,"end":11409.349,"text":"那杉杉委員就是財政部的一個修改那個你看到看到這個資料了嗎?第9案的修正有沒有給杉杉委員看了?財政部第9案齁 杉杉沒關係我們等一下齁"},{"start":11416.718,"end":11417.098,"text":"財政部．第9案"},{"start":11443.759,"end":11452.086,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11474.264,"end":11474.929,"text":"來給王世堅委員麥克風"},{"start":11492.59,"end":11515.696,"text":"那個主席我還是希望說能夠剪裂1000萬因為這個光是評審這個部分花450萬就我實際了解這太多了如果促成的簽約獎勵金他這個只是我們中央部會的獎金也沒給地方欸那只有他們自己就拿了1860萬所以這個部分齁"},{"start":11520.007,"end":11522.829,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":11543.584,"end":11569.96,"text":"那第一案我們一案一案來那個第一案簡列一般行政50萬這個陳一貞委員的提案那是不是請那個陳署長做說明一下委員各位委員長那個陳委員剛剛有跟我們這邊做了一個他的決定他要把它改成免刪免刪"},{"start":11574.297,"end":11582.483,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11598.028,"end":11608.336,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11627.51,"end":11654.395,"text":"各機關並沒有完全的落實所以這個可能可以同意跟剛剛我們是希望凍結啦可是剛剛賴慧蓉的部分是改組決議所以是有一點點不一樣那第三個是公庫公、公庫行、公營航庫這些公庫還有這些相關的資安防護我們也是希望說提出書面報告一律凍結那這個案子公庫的部分同意改組決議"},{"start":11655.851,"end":11659.616,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11675.742,"end":11698.092,"text":"好那那個不好意思那個剛剛的庫三的這一件案子第三案是不是也可以請黃委員這邊因為亮姐我們這邊要去就10年的中央跟地方首長去做一些實務經驗的分享跟了解所以這個是不是也可以時間給我們長一點"},{"start":11700.646,"end":11701.088,"text":"六個月。（處理（"},{"start":11710.831,"end":11732.359,"text":"好,那就是針對的第三案改主決議那是六個月的報告提報告再來第四案就是改成主決議那第五案也是改成主決議那我們針對的第六案這個第六案是陳一貞委員提案那就是國庫的業務減列50萬"},{"start":11737.965,"end":11762.507,"text":"陳書長這個也跟各位委員報告沒有剛剛陳委員也同意免刪好免刪那就是測案他有拍照他剛才叫我們拍照好第6案那就是測案第7案那個簡略20萬元的那個國庫業務也是陳一貞委員提案那他剛剛這邊也是說免刪好那也是測案"},{"start":11763.996,"end":11769.318,"text":"第8案陳一貞委員提案凍結10%改組決議免凍第9案陳一貞委員提案凍結10%改組決議免凍"},{"start":11793.39,"end":11809.74,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單"},{"start":11819.175,"end":11824.636,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":11847.06,"end":11853.465,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11875.075,"end":11900.464,"text":"這個今天審預算我都覺得有點被詐騙這張怎麼來的?來這個來郭委員你看一下來給郭委員看一下沒有我有在這邊我沒有同意那個改成主決議這個誰寫的?委員沒有同意改成主決議那你們這裡頭把它寫成改"},{"start":11903.176,"end":11926.633,"text":"這個國務委員也沒有簽字啊。嗯。是啊,那個跟國務委員抱歉,因為剛剛那一張看起來那個改組委員,那是我們自己的意見啊。對啊,我又沒有同意。這委員沒有簽名喔。阿你們都部長那個就財政部在兼委員齁?沒有沒有,不敢不敢。兩邊坐齁,對坐。不敢不敢。"},{"start":11929.075,"end":11930.576,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":11946.394,"end":11950.938,"text":"2、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分"},{"start":11970.653,"end":11998.841,"text":"這個可以讓我們說明一下嗎?因為我們這個國庫的這個這個通訊費的業務因為它是主要是要處理所有的那個支付款項的一些匯撥作業的手續費那這個部分的話如果說這個這資金其實都已經算得很精準然後今年其實也逐年就預算的不過預算需求其實逐年下降"},{"start":11999.383,"end":12021.594,"text":"那逐年下降又加上我們明年114年的稅稅出的金額是3兆多所以一邊同時稅出的金額同時上升然後我們的預算又是有往下處理的話那個未來的這個金額應該是加緊繃那所以我們是不是建議說這個減劣的部分可以減少一點因為現在是減150萬"},{"start":12024.895,"end":12026.216,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12039.301,"end":12065.064,"text":"一百萬就通過了因為我們查過110年到112年預算結束時限率介於大概83%到86%所以每一年都有這樣的情況出現所以其實賴文廷案150萬其實也是相當的公允"},{"start":12069.595,"end":12074.98,"text":"三八十萬,不然我就要給你保留了"},{"start":12089.804,"end":12092.687,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":12104.754,"end":12106.295,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12120.421,"end":12124.063,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12150.23,"end":12151.671,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12163.434,"end":12167.656,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12186.783,"end":12189.984,"text":"第16案嚴寬衡委員改成主決議第16案還要再併提書面第17案凍結國庫業務這是王世堅委員的提案請提案委員做說明"},{"start":12209.006,"end":12220.381,"text":"謝謝主席主席實在我說實在話這個金額齁講起來很小才42萬齁那跟前面相比這個太小比了不過我認為這個是懲罰性的凍結啦"},{"start":12226.731,"end":12251.306,"text":"國庫署每年都有發文給各部會希望他們各部會能夠針對有自償性的公共建設來發行一類的公佔但是言者尊尊、聽者渺渺"},{"start":12253.615,"end":12275.463,"text":"那這個尊尊的言者也只是講講而已再來也沒去追蹤也沒去要求所以這麼多年來那麼光這10年就好我們事實上也只有交通部有遵照國庫署說的去發自償性的以內公債"},{"start":12276.82,"end":12287.631,"text":"那發了10檔也才1380億所以我認為這個成效太少啦也就是說國庫署在這個部分齁這個業務的推動"},{"start":12290.086,"end":12290.987,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12309.005,"end":12329.302,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華"},{"start":12337.403,"end":12340.604,"text":"一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12352.967,"end":12375.654,"text":"然後預算沒編到的話那至少又不然去借款借款結果我們公營行庫也是在財政部不是那麼嚴謹的督導之下公營行庫借給我們各部會公共建設的利率竟然還遠高於借給數條山兄弟的"},{"start":12377.304,"end":12387.322,"text":"共銀行戶的銀行寧願借給鼠條三兄弟極低的利率一點多趴的利率讓他們去放高利貸也不願意"},{"start":12389.508,"end":12407.022,"text":"來第一例借給我們的公共建設這就說供應行戶吃我們政府狗狗就對了所以我認為這些比喻上雖然這麼小但是我凍結這百分之三十是希望他們能夠有積極的作為好好的反省積極的去作為謝謝"},{"start":12408.283,"end":12411.185,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":12435.948,"end":12438.41,"text":"提書面提書面報告"},{"start":12461.508,"end":12462.969,"text":"提書面3個月內,進入第18案,檢列國庫業務賴氏堡委員"},{"start":12481.764,"end":12484.745,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12509.815,"end":12510.616,"text":"國庫業務上去申請因為我們這資料是另外"},{"start":12529.393,"end":12553.693,"text":"因為後面還有好幾個案子,我們是希望能併在一起的。好,那個名稱委員,那個,好,可以,那就第18案,檢閱國庫業務,那個30萬科目自行調整,那我們進入到,來。稍微,那這個因為這是這樣的條,是我們是希望說18跟21是不是可以併在一起。"},{"start":12555.106,"end":12559.309,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12581.505,"end":12602.786,"text":"所以國庫署也不當一回事他表面上好像跟我們爭取說票不要了結果這個金額那麼小他跟我們沒什麼差別但是這個一樣是象徵性的要給他們警告就是說警告他什麼呢警告他說我們公股銀行"},{"start":12604.025,"end":12631.102,"text":"我國庫署針對公股銀行放款給一些二職建商放款給二職建商購買空地那麼中央銀行有一條規定就是說購買空地你必須一年半18個月內要開始要之後要實質動工但是竟然沒有沒有動工而繼續放款給這些空地給這些二職建商的竟然高達2100"},{"start":12633.203,"end":12635.867,"text":"總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":12651.271,"end":12652.572,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12669.801,"end":12670.402,"text":"羅明財委員花言"},{"start":12686.681,"end":12709.336,"text":"謝謝主席那剛剛聆聽了王世堅委員的提案我覺得也是有道理的那我這邊18案也不堅持所以你不併我這邊那我併你那邊就好了但是是30萬如果王委員如果這個剛剛他已經接受30萬不然的話我們這邊一樣就併到你的案然後金額提高到30萬18案那個已經宣布了"},{"start":12714.813,"end":12721.598,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12740.533,"end":12745.74,"text":"18案是30啦阿你如果要併的話就併到王偉那案阿金額調高到30萬就好了"},{"start":12749.35,"end":12751.532,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":12779.691,"end":12782.873,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12801.991,"end":12808.474,"text":"第18案、第21案簡略,國庫業務,客戶自行調整。接著我們再進入第19案,李燕秀委員提案的改成主決議。"},{"start":12826.984,"end":12834.885,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分"},{"start":12858.45,"end":12861.391,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":12885.486,"end":12888.028,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12913.763,"end":12915.285,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12931.749,"end":12933.291,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":12949.231,"end":12951.293,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":12973.339,"end":12974.88,"text":"總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":12986.584,"end":12987.384,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13007.379,"end":13030.395,"text":"陳署長做說明一下我們這一個業務費這個包括委辦費還有一些認證的費用其實都是有關於在協助我們國內優質酒類他們去做推廣然後先有認證費然後又要有一些生產線上的一些認證檢查費用那所以另外還有就是一些"},{"start":13033.43,"end":13054.426,"text":"推廣的費用那因為這些東西如果有涉及到基本工資的話也都同時有調整這也就是為什麼我們今年的預算會是比較多一點多一點點而已那這個部分的話其實都是為了維護國人的健康安全還有為了讓我們的業者能夠優質酒類的業者能夠"},{"start":13057.95,"end":13060.491,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13085.265,"end":13113.883,"text":"阿健康就大家不要喝酒不要抽煙不是更健康對不對抽煙不要抽煙啦但是酒其實某種程度是阿大家食安都每一次大家都很掙扎啦為了國人健康希望大家不要抽煙可是煙酒公司在賣煙還在推廣這都是相違背的啦讓我們的健保支出不斷的升高"},{"start":13115.004,"end":13136.473,"text":"這部分,因為賴委員有講,就是減,三減五百萬,五百萬,不然你自己說,你自己作為三減,那是不是你這個兩千多萬,就是賴司保委員要三減你五百萬,那你覺得你最痛苦是可以讓他三減多少?"},{"start":13138.394,"end":13140.395,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13164.298,"end":13166.483,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":13170.851,"end":13175.133,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":13197.566,"end":13204.009,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13226.442,"end":13227.582,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":13252.355,"end":13276.435,"text":"來,署長做說明對,因為這個其實整個案子我們這邊都有逐年在檢討我們的查緝的方案所以我們現在我們訂了一個查緝走私菸品清淨查計畫這個執行方案就修正了10次所以我們其實針對一些查緝的方法尤其是對於現在的新的電子菸這雖然不是我們這邊的菸品"},{"start":13278.877,"end":13281.998,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13303.882,"end":13306.524,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13322.637,"end":13325.581,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":13342.336,"end":13368.932,"text":"這個部分我們有跟委員這邊做報告因為畢竟這個國債複息這件事情其實在他會關係到說目前利率的走勢那目前利率其實雖然新美國的川普總統上台以後其實整個走勢看來就不見得如外界預期本來說會下降"},{"start":13369.485,"end":13384.421,"text":"那所以在這部分的話相對於我們今年才最近這幾期在飆售的公債其實那利率都有上升的趨勢那所以在這樣的情況下的話我們目前編的國債複習1068億其實已經有較往年"},{"start":13390.928,"end":13393.27,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13416.743,"end":13423.686,"text":"這個提案是三減60億那我們從110年到112年的決算數分別為878億、826億及829億"},{"start":13439.251,"end":13460.086,"text":"那這樣算起來大概是77%到82%之間所以三減這個數字的確是比較大一點但你要充分再來做說明有些具體的數據所以你們如果願意接受我們就三減如果不願意的話就先保留"},{"start":13463.069,"end":13468.032,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13497.13,"end":13524.21,"text":"其實因為以前因為債息涉及國家的信用這就是為什麼其實委員再跟委員報告一下因為其實債息真的涉及國家的那個信用的問題那如果說今天一旦我們債息支出沒有辦法逐額編列的話其實真的我們的確過去的確是有一點空間但是那個空間就是為了要因應"},{"start":13525.629,"end":13527.15,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13553.527,"end":13557.251,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13569.525,"end":13571.086,"text":"處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13592.881,"end":13616.706,"text":"那所以也就是說在經濟成在整個經濟發展非常有果效的情況下的話這個部分就我們就有減少舉借然後也有增加還債那這幾年是因為都是這樣財務的這樣的操作才有辦法審習那但是這種事情我們真的很難預估明年是不是也一樣是這樣的問題啊"},{"start":13618.717,"end":13642.727,"text":"那所以就會很擔心喔因為畢竟以現在的債務舉借的話其實整個空間沒有想像中那麼大除非我們真的最後還是不舉借又可以增加還本那這個部分才有可能下降阿10億喔10億如果10億的話是不是委員"},{"start":13644.548,"end":13650.031,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13671.698,"end":13674.14,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13696.69,"end":13700.213,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13712.322,"end":13713.163,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13727.973,"end":13751.494,"text":"那就是第一案簡略一般行政兩百萬是陳一貞委員提出來的那我們是不是請那個財政中心來說明一下財政資訊中心來說明一下張偉不好意思剛剛我們那個國債經理跟那個國債副席這兩個科目是不是也可以容許我們科目自行調整可以啦可以可以"},{"start":13758.269,"end":13759.532,"text":"知名中心第一案,剛才陳委員口頭同意明語刪減。"},{"start":13764.724,"end":13766.786,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13785.826,"end":13786.347,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13810.167,"end":13812.87,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13834.356,"end":13836.257,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13860.727,"end":13864.518,"text":"針對稅務資料的跟資通網路安全防護要提出書面報告,所以凍結500萬。"},{"start":13866.189,"end":13895.247,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華"},{"start":13896.699,"end":13902.585,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13917.637,"end":13920.219,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":13933.519,"end":13937.94,"text":"第9案嚴寬恒委員已經改成凍結5%提書面第10案凍結綜合規劃管理會5%"},{"start":13960.191,"end":13964.453,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":13987.361,"end":14016.053,"text":"近年出國計畫變更的原因還有114年將來出國計畫會不會還是發生這樣的狀況所以我們還是希望說先凍結然後請他們提出書面報告好,深山委員這個這個國外理會我們就是在那個宴會的時候都是那個就是通山案就是我們併入處理那宴會處理就對了這個案子我們到宴會處理好不好"},{"start":14017.782,"end":14042.468,"text":"這委員會就不提了好那就是我們在針對的這個第10案委員會不處理第11案也一樣李恩秀委員這個我們也不宜處理那第12案是賴世保委員那個檢列檢列案那個900萬那請賴世保委員那個提案說明"},{"start":14046.095,"end":14046.635,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":14068.131,"end":14092.335,"text":"來,那個我們第12案簡略就是那個國稅和那個核課的一個系統跟那個資料集中處理的一個經費那就是50萬那科目自行那個調整來,我們進入到第13案簡略1000萬那個賴氏堡委員提案那就改成100萬了改成100萬那個主任有沒有問題"},{"start":14096.796,"end":14104.401,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14121.713,"end":14131.337,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14145.932,"end":14159.981,"text":"第15案,凍結財政資訊業務5趴,是黃森山委員提案,森山委員是不是要補充一下?有修正文字嗎?來看一下。我們還沒有拿到資料喔。"},{"start":14172.523,"end":14183.467,"text":"好,這個部分我們同意併...現在是凍結嗎?凍結我們就併凍。併到第16案嗎?15案併16案是不是?那就是以第16案為主,那就是凍結5%?是"},{"start":14201.294,"end":14206.676,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14230.339,"end":14236.423,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14260.58,"end":14262.496,"text":"因為軟硬體這個空間很大啦"},{"start":14264.866,"end":14288.471,"text":"主案有沒有問題?當然是沒有問題第18案簡略電子花票管理經費50萬科目自行調整接著我們進入到中央政府債務基金第一案增略債務收入50億這是33委員提案"},{"start":14291.932,"end":14293.514,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14316.704,"end":14322.509,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14345.988,"end":14360.219,"text":"司法委員那個第三案簡略那個是不是請說明一下財政部說明一下是那這個部分的話是不是也可以並同那個國庫署的國債複習計畫那邊隨同調整改成10億元對兩個是一樣的是"},{"start":14370.686,"end":14372.947,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14392.366,"end":14408.973,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（四、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":14419.411,"end":14419.431,"text":"主決議"},{"start":14432.901,"end":14449.078,"text":"我國金融市場競爭激烈根據金融監督管理委員會統計資料截至113年8月底本國銀行共38家總行、3388家分行、加計二國銀行在台分行、信和社、農會信用部、中華郵政公司"},{"start":14449.919,"end":14465.392,"text":"總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理�"},{"start":14471.957,"end":14486.575,"text":"新給制度之規範作為拘束而缺乏彈性與純民營或富岸供股相較均無法在地主點上與之競爭在攬查流財上將見識誘因此外國營銀行近年來獲利屢創佳績為授權預算法規範無法及時支應額外"},{"start":14490.9,"end":14517.274,"text":"構建固定資產預算需求而削弱其競爭力．望能修訂相關法規．使得構建固定資產預算規劃與執行．更具彈性與行動力．以提升國營銀行競爭力。．動森．等國銀行在經營上．面對相同之完全競爭市場環境．但國營金融事業機構．含臺灣金控、臺灣土地銀行及中國輸出率銀行．員工之薪酬、福利措施及預算運用．彈性卻不及其他犯工股．"},{"start":14517.874,"end":14540.88,"text":"金融銀行,原請財政部會同人事總署提出拉近國營金融事業機構與泛工股金融同業之薪酬制度、福利水平等方案及修訂、構建固定資產預算相關法規,與一個月內向財政委員會提出方案以提升其競爭力。提案人賴氏寶、李坤成、黃珊珊,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":14541.64,"end":14569.387,"text":"這樣子齁 這個現在財政部有反映了齁 財政部反映了我接受了齁那個第三段整段拿掉了齁因為這個我們要講的是員工的福利跟你們要構建固定資產預算沒有關係你們要那個另外再提案跟這個好不好福利的部分所以最後一段的第三行及預算運用彈性也劃掉後面這些劃掉你重新念一下好不好"},{"start":14569.907,"end":14574.229,"text":"第三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":14587.301,"end":14609.269,"text":"第3段此外國營銀行近年來獲利履創佳績為受限的預算法規範無法及時支應額外構建固定資產預算需求而消耗其競爭力。望您修訂相關法規使得構建固定資產預算規劃與執行根據彈性與行動力以提升國營銀行競爭力等文字予以刪除。宣讀完畢"},{"start":14612.527,"end":14614.148,"text":"有關財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":14628.554,"end":14630.857,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14646.323,"end":14646.964,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14670.881,"end":14674.703,"text":"主席,他整個修正後的要給我們嘛,他在那邊唸來唸去。"},{"start":14701.128,"end":14716.974,"text":"本席在這裡先宣布就是我們第14案改成簡略那是基本行政工作的維持那就是簡略10萬塊科目自行調整"},{"start":14728.491,"end":14731.894,"text":"總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":14786.731,"end":14789.493,"text":"請大家把主決議發給在現場的委員"},{"start":14796.959,"end":14803.662,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":14830.478,"end":14842.987,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":14857.777,"end":14860.559,"text":"有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":14891.918,"end":14894.179,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":14931.257,"end":14940.581,"text":"第三段予以刪除改略第三段重上本國經常在經營上面對相同之完全競爭市場環境但國營金融事業機構"},{"start":14942.984,"end":14959.53,"text":"含臺灣金礦、臺灣銀行及中國輸出銀行員工之薪酬、福利措施卻不及其他犯公股金控銀行,嚴禁財政部會同人事總署提出拉近國營金融事業機構與犯公股金融同業"},{"start":14961.178,"end":14980.406,"text":"知否實惠、生育補助、獎金、員工福利信託等福利相關方案。於一個月內向財政委員會提出改進方案以提升其競爭力。提出書面改進方案以提升其競爭力。"},{"start":14985.941,"end":14988.503,"text":"委員、賴、賴事寶、李、坤、陳、王、三、三、王、四、建、宣、聯、秉。"},{"start":15026.111,"end":15035.355,"text":"主席在這裡報告主結議案就是那個國營金融事業機構員工福祉及市場競爭力這個就是我們詔案通過謝謝修正通過"},{"start":15065.6,"end":15066.601,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15087.044,"end":15093.189,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":15117.888,"end":15128.153,"text":"本席在這裡宣告協商完成請議事人員先讀協商結論中央銀行部分和平案第一案改組決議"},{"start":15141.929,"end":15167.082,"text":"中央預算部分第一案、第二案及第三案合併增略本期金利兩億元。（處理（第四案、測案。（處理（第五案及第六案並第一案。（處理（第七案及第八案並按檢閱二十萬元。（處理（第九案、第十案、第十一案並按檢閱三百萬元。（處理（"},{"start":15169.329,"end":15175.894,"text":"第12案、13案、14案並案減約50萬元第15案改組決議第16案改組決議第17案及第20案並案減約10萬元第18案改組決議第19案改組決議"},{"start":15190.097,"end":15208.199,"text":"第21案專案報告改書面報告修正通過第22案專案報告改書面報告修正通過第23案照案通過第24案照案通過第25案照案通過第26案照案通過第27案照案通過第28案照案通過"},{"start":15209.471,"end":15237.34,"text":"第19案照案通過第30案照案通過第31案照案通過第32案照案通過第33案照案通過第34案照案通過第35案修正通過第36案照案通過第37案照案通過第38案照案通過第39案照案通過第40案照案通過第41案照案通過第42案照案通過"},{"start":15239.025,"end":15263.518,"text":"中央造幣廠部分第一案增略本期金利100萬元第二案及第三案併案減略50萬元第四案改組決議中央印製廠部分本期金利增略300萬元第二案減略20萬元科目自行調整第三案減略100萬元第四案改組決議第二案改組決議"},{"start":15268.05,"end":15287.162,"text":"財政部稅率部分。第一案至第27案稅客收入並按增列105億元科目自行調整。第28案權利金增列1億5000萬元。第29案租金收入增列2000萬元。"},{"start":15289.554,"end":15317.83,"text":"第30至第32案股息、紅利、腳庫並案增列2億5千萬元科目諮詢調整。（第三十三案徹案。（第三十四案投資股息、紅利增列4千零7萬8千元科目諮詢調整。（第三十五案其他雜項收入增列1千萬元財政部稅出部分。（第一案徹案。（第二案改組決議。（第三案改組決議。"},{"start":15319.895,"end":15347.563,"text":"第四案至第八案及第十案、第十一案、第四五案並按凍結預付費10%提書面報告三個月內提書面報告第九案修正通過第十二案改組決議第十三案照案通過第十四案基本行政工作維持減略十萬元科目資金調整"},{"start":15348.991,"end":15364.161,"text":"第16案及第19案簡略業務費20萬元科目自行調整第17案改組決議第18案撤案第20案撤案第21案撤案第22案改組決議第23、24、29、30、31並案"},{"start":15374.366,"end":15383.089,"text":"業務費凍結5%提書面報告以第30案為主第25案改組決議第26案凍結5%提書面報告第27案凍結5%提書面報告第28案凍結10%提書面報告第32案減劣70萬元科目自行調整第33案保留送運會協商"},{"start":15404.145,"end":15414.907,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":15433.81,"end":15456.256,"text":"45案修正通過46案修正通過47案照案通過48案照案通過49案照案通過50案照案通過51案修正通過52案修正通過53案修正通過54案照案通過55案照案通過"},{"start":15458.09,"end":15471.083,"text":"國庫署歲出預算部分第一案撤案第二案改組決議第三案改組決議提書面報告六個月內提書面報告第四案改組決議第五案改組決議"},{"start":15476.756,"end":15481.961,"text":"6、撤案7、撤案8、改組決議9、改組決議10、改組決議11、凍結5%提書面報告12、及10、併案凍結200萬元2個月內提書面報告以12案為主13、檢列業務費80萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":15503.925,"end":15512.51,"text":"第15案改組決議3個月內提書面報告第16案改組決議提書面報告第17案凍結20%3個月內提書面報告第18案及第21案檢閱國庫業務30萬元科目自行調整第19案改組決議提書面報告第20案凍結5%2個月內提書面報告第22案改組決議"},{"start":15532.677,"end":15555.652,"text":"第二十三案改組決議第二十四案改組決議第二十五案菸酒管理租業檢列50萬元科目自行調整第二十六案凍結5%提書面報告第二十七案照案通過第二十八案照案通過第二十九案凍結5%提書面報告第三十案"},{"start":15558.061,"end":15582.786,"text":"在日立席檢列十億元科目自行調整。（處理（第31案首需費檢列五百萬元科目自行調整。（處理（第32案照案通過。財政資訊中心歲出部分。（處理（第一案撤案。（處理（第二案、第三案、第四案、第五案、第六案及第八案並按檢列財政資訊業務一百萬元。（處理（第七案照案通過。（處理（"},{"start":15584.008,"end":15589.413,"text":"第九案,凍結5%,提書面報告。第十案及第十一案,不予處理。"},{"start":15591.55,"end":15612.083,"text":"第12案,檢列國稅核課系統及資料集中處理經費50萬元科目諮詢調整。第13案,檢列資通資源管理100萬元科目諮詢調整。第14案,檢列財政資訊管理10萬元科目諮詢調整。第15案及第16案,凍結5%提書問報告,以第16案為主。第17案,凍結10%提書問報告。第18案,檢列電子發票管理經費50萬元。"},{"start":15621.311,"end":15637.897,"text":"總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（處理（三、繼續審查中華民國114年度"},{"start":15652.89,"end":15657.832,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":15680.129,"end":15689.357,"text":"財政資訊中心歲出部分第二案、第三案、第四案、第五案、第六案及第八案（編案簡略財政資訊業務100萬元（科目執行調整沒有那是10、11啦"},{"start":15706.292,"end":15711.056,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國11年度中央政府"},{"start":15736.755,"end":15739.636,"text":"本席補充我們的財政資訊中心就第9案因為這個是國外理會所以統三科目我們就是不宜處理"},{"start":15756.852,"end":15757.393,"text":"這應該都跟議題有關係吧?對對沒辦法寫"},{"start":15773.773,"end":15777.196,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":15795.305,"end":15798.868,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":15833.646,"end":15836.007,"text":"請各位委員對於協商的結論有沒有意義?"},{"start":15841.714,"end":15865.304,"text":"一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分。（除了照協商結論通過以外（其餘的部分經照列有關正式別、歲出預算（隨同以上的機關別、審查"},{"start":15867.425,"end":15890.672,"text":"結果調整令財政部及所屬的營業基金營業腳庫暫列當所屬的營業基金審議確定以後再行調整。（處理（第二、審查財政部主管債務基金中中央政府債務基金除照協商結論通過以外其餘的部分均照列令業務計劃"},{"start":15892.532,"end":15908.34,"text":"因依據基金來源及用途審查結果,隨從調整。（處理（三、審查行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利腳庫的部分,照案通過,令行政院"},{"start":15909.681,"end":15937.762,"text":"營業基金營業腳庫暫照列。（當所屬營業基金審議確定了以後（我們再行調整是審查中央銀行含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠的預算案（除照列協商結論通過以外（其餘部分經照列令。（業務計畫的部分因依據營業收支、金融保險或生產的成本（"},{"start":15939.042,"end":15962.808,"text":"轉投資重大的建設事業及資金運用等項目的一個審查結果隨同調整金融保險或生產的成本的部分隨同營業總支出審查結果調整營業總支出應隨同調整資金運用的部分應依據營業收支金融保險或生產的成本盈虧撥補"},{"start":15965.529,"end":15982.343,"text":"轉投資及重大建設事業等4項審查結果,隨同調整。請問各位委員對以上的決議有沒有意義?沒有意義。本日的會議議程已進行完畢,休息。謝謝大家。"},{"start":15995.522,"end":15998.843,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"},{"start":16025.489,"end":16031.791,"text":"及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（二、繼續審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政部及所屬單位歲出預算部分。（處理（"},{"start":16058.806,"end":16060.587,"text":"十一月二十九"},{"start":16086.997,"end":16090.4,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預算部分"},{"start":16104.336,"end":16109.862,"text":"三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府三、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府"}]}},{"id":"157432","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157432","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c740cfa2b597f1b2b4bd385048732c8e563a481f0a8051d8b2aa1c492a21a7eb66e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:26:41 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"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審理法草案案。"},{"start":141.496,"end":168.894,"text":"那個檢疫程序當然當然他的程序會比較快速但是比較希望說比較快速那當然法律有規定說停期應該要原則上一停但實際上面實務上面大概做不到但是他的那個審理的這個嚴密程度就實務上的操作其實跟普通訴訟並沒有差距到好你說這個檢疫程序跟通常程序訴訟上是沒有差別的"},{"start":169.654,"end":180.724,"text":"規定上是沒有差別的。然後你認為這個審理的程序是比較快的,是這樣子嗎?下一任的副秘書長是這樣子嗎?制度上是如此,理想很豐滿,現實很骨感。有理想是很好的,但實務面真的是如此嗎?副秘書長下一任的。"},{"start":200.805,"end":224.81,"text":"檢疫程序本來它的設計是一個分源就是說分流分流的一個制度就是讓比較簡易簡單的可以就是一個快速程序解決那確實就是說在之前民事訴訟法修法之後把所有的交通事件全部全部檢疫而且是你們提的修法案110年通過現在我們發現司法院提了很多修法案"},{"start":225.55,"end":235.576,"text":"造成實務面試很難執行而且造成很多的困擾包括我之前一直不斷在講的整個醫療糾紛的鑑定的制度現在沒有一個醫生沒有一個醫事單位沒有一個醫學院沒有一個這個學會願意幫這個車禍糾紛鑑定造成車禍案件審理停擺而到現在已經七八個月了都沒有人有辦法解決"},{"start":252.205,"end":254.127,"text":"函送當事人相當大的權益。」而現在我要講這個香山這個個案同樣的意思就是說你們都認為說這個行政訴訟法第4331條的規定檢疫訴訟程序不要忘了法院應以一次期日辯論終結為原則所以只開一次庭欸兩位副秘書長"},{"start":276.986,"end":280.471,"text":"一個重大傷亡的交通事件需要調查多少事情"},{"start":282.987,"end":309.462,"text":"如果說這個造勢責任在形式上沒有完全確定或是當事人還有異議法院都還要再送這個鑑定單位鑑定而鑑定單位有這麼多有大陸交通鑑定委員會有出審有復議還有警察大學等等都需要時間而你們司法院卻打所有一切的交通事故都以開一次庭為原則"},{"start":310.563,"end":313.566,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案 案件及財務行政事件審理法草案案 案件及財務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":329.855,"end":352.512,"text":"公務員報告齁,那民事中法的那個條文雖然規定一次停為原則,但是它只是原則。以交通案件實務上面來講的話,應該是很難一次就結。好,那你告訴我,你提供的資料,你說交通案件很難一次審理就結案,你來提供這修法以後,"},{"start":353.192,"end":375.185,"text":"所有的交通案件開超過一次的、所有的開超過一次、一次沒有結的資料通通送給我。」我為什麼會講這個勒?你們這一些爭點要釐清,絕對不是開一次點可以結束。你自己的回答相當也這麼認為。可是呢,實務面這個真的是這樣子嗎?我要再提醒你一次喔。"},{"start":375.845,"end":383.362,"text":"全國各法院函議庭的分案量每一個法官平均一個月要負擔幾件?"},{"start":387.182,"end":412.412,"text":"各個法院不太一致,但是有的不太一致。平均大概約略,100件跑不掉吧。扣除銀行請求的信用卡債務的案件,每個法官的負荷還是很重。你們把原來普通庭辦理的交通事件藉由修法全部都推給檢議庭的法官去辦理,那你們做了什麼配套?你們還做了什麼配套?配套在哪裡?"},{"start":414.482,"end":428.525,"text":"跟委員報告,那當然檢疫庭增加那相關的人力相關的這部分都會去做整體的進行審查有增加嗎來各位聽院長在這裡檢疫庭這樣子剛才副秘書長說把所有交通民事請求書案件交給檢疫庭審理然後有增加人力這是事實嗎這是事實嗎好把增加的人力配置經費每一個院按照每一個院"},{"start":444.008,"end":450.262,"text":"分別把資料整理好也送上來。」我請求第二個資料了齁。然後呢我接到很多的陳情啦齁。就是說事實上呢"},{"start":454.765,"end":477.043,"text":"檢疫庭法官幾乎都不調查證據,因為你們一開一次庭為原則。法官就算想要調查證據,也是心有餘而力不足。」所以你們一直在強調說比較快,我就不知道。那我再問你,如果說重大的交通案件,當事人可以申請改用通常程序嗎?"},{"start":479.219,"end":485.441,"text":"第二項的訴訟案情較複雜或其訴訟標的金額或價額逾越第一項所定額數十倍以上者法院得依當事人申請以裁定改用通常程序並由原法官繼續審理請問我第一個問題請問"},{"start":508.67,"end":523.878,"text":"這條文裏面講的是第一項所定額的數十倍以上數十倍是幾倍才可以改用通常程序這是申請人申請就可以改了還是還必須要由你們去裁定"},{"start":524.941,"end":541.568,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會"},{"start":555.632,"end":566.406,"text":"審說的這個樣子看起來好像有這個程序自主權,事實上是沒有了。我想這部分其實個案的情形不太一樣。如果說審議一個單純當政的情形一定要準確。數十倍到底是幾倍?"},{"start":573.664,"end":580.488,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":603.756,"end":632.17,"text":"五百萬以上的人的傷亡才是傷亡。五百萬以下的就一審結案。人民有貴賤之分嗎?跟委員報告齁,我們會統計到底一審結案的有多少給委員。那就我們辦實務的檢查。不要全部多少案件,一審結案多少。然後申請通常程序審理的有多少,成功的多少。"},{"start":633.564,"end":635.965,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度"},{"start":654.315,"end":662.06,"text":"理想很棒但執行起來可能嗎?你們弄這種規定是誰辦得到?你們的法官辦得到?簡易庭的法官辦得到嗎?你們要由原法官繼續審理都已經改用通常程序了為什麼這案子不是交給普通法院去審理?其實這個是當初在研修的時候要由原法官繼續審理當然會避免一個問題"},{"start":683.792,"end":689.073,"text":"法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":712.057,"end":714.841,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":730.501,"end":752.632,"text":"哪一個簡怡婷的法官會搬石頭砸自己的腳啦?我簡怡婷乾單開事情結案的我要把它改成通常程序然後還要照一般程序處理然後製造自己的困擾最後改通常程序審理還是自己要審理?得起來簡怡婷的法官有這種時間有這種能力有這麼佛心來者的有嗎?"},{"start":759.141,"end":763.648,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":771.155,"end":774.537,"text":"法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律"},{"start":798.03,"end":805.054,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":822.265,"end":848.678,"text":"應該是這樣講啊我這個例子是這樣子我來看一下這個例子比如說醫院鑑定報告說被害人失能比例是50%那簡一庭的法官看錯了他在判決判成是20%請問這個被害人能不能用這個理由說法院對證據看錯然後這個進行二審甚至上訴到第三審最高法院可不可以"},{"start":850.319,"end":852.963,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":865.359,"end":885.828,"text":"民事訴訟法第436條之二第一項規定對於檢疫訴訟程序之第二審裁判其上訴利益於第466條所定之額數者,當事人僅得以其適用法規,嫌有錯誤為理由,竟向最高法院提起上訴或看告。"},{"start":887.389,"end":887.93,"text":"禁以其引用的法規,顯有錯誤為理由。」"},{"start":909.838,"end":913.12,"text":"一般案則上述第三選的規定是民事訴訟法第469條有效的各款情形之一者其判決當然違背法令"},{"start":934.252,"end":941.917,"text":"判決法院之組織不合法,依法律或裁判應迴避之法官參與裁判,法院與審判權之有無辨別不當或違背專屬管轄之規定等等等等。」但這裡面就沒有我們講的這一種。"},{"start":949.122,"end":976.117,"text":"委員報告468那剛才委員唸的是469啦468判決不是用法則或是用法則不當這些都是構成上訴第三審的這個理由好那你講得很好來我同樣的請你回去立刻發函給全國各地方法院各法院的所有全部的法官所有這種證據看錯的檢疫判決也可以上訴到第三審也就是最高法院好不好我要你發了兩個文喔"},{"start":980.677,"end":987.098,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院組函送財團法律扶助基金會審查"},{"start":1007.321,"end":1013.524,"text":"副秘書長,意思是說怎麼去發文這個部分要研議,不是說內容要研議,怎麼發文。怎麼發文怎麼會需要研議,應該是內容,你困難的地方是我剛才要你發文的內容你要研議啦,你的困難在那裡。"},{"start":1046.559,"end":1063.131,"text":"法院其實要實現人民的權利那你們的整個修法的制度把所有交通民事訴訟的案件全部改成檢議庭審理真的影響了人民權利很大"},{"start":1063.939,"end":1085.745,"text":"而文化資本不一樣的當事人經濟資本不一樣的當事人他們的能力也差別很大這個是有階級性的而你現在這樣子下去大概只有經濟資本文化資本高的人才有辦法進行民事交通案件的這個訴訟"},{"start":1087.705,"end":1101.593,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律�"},{"start":1116.141,"end":1117.301,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案 案件的民事訴訟也需要發現真實。涉及人民商網的賠償案件"},{"start":1142.751,"end":1145.172,"text":"函請審查司法院函請審查司法院組函請審查司法院組函請審查司法院組"},{"start":1172.742,"end":1175.003,"text":"三、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院組"},{"start":1200.882,"end":1211.373,"text":"包括依舊的訴訟的修法也是一樣我認為你們講的有道理啊可是現實面離法律界跟醫界都要鬥法"},{"start":1212.523,"end":1230.232,"text":"台灣社會兩大自然主、社會主的最精英。你們在那裡鬥法犧牲的是人民的權益,擺爛在那裡。這樣走都不對,但是各位,副秘書長要離開了,代理副秘書,抱歉,是真正的未來的副秘書長。"},{"start":1231.753,"end":1232.294,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案 案。"},{"start":1247.955,"end":1258.424,"text":"沒有秘書長,然後再一個副秘書長要離開,再換一個副秘書長,讓大家審法案、審預算都不知道在審想。當然有一部分的責任是立法院要承擔,因為立法院沒有盡快的行使我們院長和副院長的人事的審查,所以一部分責任我們當然知道是我們要承擔,立法院要承擔。但是呢,我們講了這個,你如果有院長新的來了,副院長來了,"},{"start":1276.078,"end":1278.381,"text":"秘書長也闡出了,你們可以在這一個事情上面願意多想想、多思考怎麼解決嗎?願意嗎?打著改革的旗幟,做出來的人民沒有受益,反而為盟其利先受其害,這才是大問題喔,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時26分）主席，是不是請副秘書長？"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：副秘書長，我首先問你一個問題，你什麼時候要離開這個位子？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們的派令是12月2號。"],["林委員淑芬：12月2號，你做到12月2號，那誰要代理？你們都代！代！代！全部都是代。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，因為已經有接任的……"],["林委員淑芬：主席，他到12月2號，可是我的問題未來要解決……"],["主席：有報派，有報派，要不要請報派王院長來答詢？"],["林委員淑芬：要下一任的代理來嗎？來答詢嗎？還是要讓他？"],["主席：王院長不是代理，王院長是接副秘書長。"],["林委員淑芬：那他在嗎？"],["主席：在。"],["林委員淑芬：那請他來好了。"],["主席：好，沒辦法，世代交替。"],["林委員淑芬：因為剩沒幾天嘛。"],["主席：有請王院長。"],["林委員淑芬：下一個副秘書長，請下一任。那就請黃副秘回座。"],["主席：啊？這樣快喔？還沒交接欸。"],["林委員淑芬：他馬上就沒了啊，我問他也沒用啊。"],["主席：林委員，我們世代交替還是要傳承一下吧。"],["林委員淑芬：傳承一下喔，好，那你們兩個一起聽好了。"],["主席：好，謝謝。兩位請。"],["林委員淑芬：謝謝，那就麻煩下一任的副秘也聽一下。在今年的10月28日，不到一個月以前，國道3號香山路段發生了一個重大的交通事故，一輛大型聯結車疑似疲勞駕駛，追撞前方正在大排長龍要下交流道的車輛，造成2個人死亡、5個人重傷，請問如果這些被害人提起民事訴訟，法院是用什麼程序審理？交通事件的民事訴訟是用什麼程序處理？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果是單純的民事訴訟，不是附帶民事訴訟的話，交通事件是簡易程序。"],["林委員淑芬：這麼重大的交通事故是用簡易程序處理，那簡易程序跟普通程序通常有什麼不同？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：簡易程序當然會比較快速，希望比較快速，當然法律有規定庭期應該要原則上一庭，但實務上面大概做不到，但是它審理的嚴密程度，就實務上的操作，其實跟普通訴訟並沒有差距到非常大。"],["林委員淑芬：好，你說簡易程序跟普通程序訴訟上是沒有差別的，理論上是沒有差別的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：規定上面是有差別。"],["林委員淑芬：然後你認為審理的程序是比較快的，是這樣子嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：制度上面期待如此，但是實務上的操作……"],["林委員淑芬：下一任的副秘，是這樣子嗎？制度上是如此，理想很豐滿，現實很骨感，有理想是很好的，但實務面真的是如此嗎？副秘書長，下一任的。"],["王院長梅英：簡易程序本來的設計是分源，即分流的一個制度，讓比較簡易、簡單地可以以一個快速的程序解決。確實之前在民事訴訟法修法後，把所有的交通事件納到那個簡易……"],["林委員淑芬：對，全部喔！而且是你們提的修法案，110年通過！現在我們發現，司法院提了很多修法案造成實務面很難執行，而且造成很多困擾，包括我之前一直不斷在講的，整個醫療糾紛的鑑定制度，現在沒有一個醫生、沒有一個醫事單位、沒有一個醫學院、沒有一個學會願意幫車禍糾紛鑑定，造成車禍案件審理停擺，到現在已經7、8個月了，都沒有人有辦法解決，影響了訴訟當事人相當大的權益。而現在我要講的香山這個個案，同樣的意思，你們都認為民事訴訟法第四百三十三條之一的規定，簡易訴訟程序，不要忘了，法院應以一次期日辯論終結為原則，所以只開一次庭耶！兩位副秘書長，一個重大傷亡的交通事件需要調查多少事情，如果肇事責任在刑事上沒有完全確定或當事人還有異議，法院都還要再送鑑定單位鑑定。鑑定單位有這麼多，包括道路交通鑑定委員會，有初審、覆議，還有警察大學等等都需要時間，而司法院卻把一切交通事故都以開一次庭為原則！而且不是只有肇事責任比例，還有醫療費用、看護費用、扶養費用需要調查，以及失能的比例要鑑定，以上種種是要如何以開一次庭調查就可以馬上結案？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，民事訴訟法的那個條文雖然規定一次庭為原則，但它只是原則，以交通案件實務上面來講，應該很難一次就結案，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：好，那你告訴我，你提供我資料，你說交通案件很難一次審理就結案，你來提供，修法以後所有的交通案件開超過一次、一次沒有結的，資料通通送給我。我為什麼會講這個……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：這一些爭點要釐清，絕對不是開一次庭可以結束，你自己的回答相當地也這麼認為，可是實務面真的是這樣子嗎？我要再提醒你一次，全國各法院的這麼多院長在這裡，簡易庭的分案量，每一個法官平均一個月要負擔幾件？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：各個法院不太一致，但是有的負擔比較重。"],["林委員淑芬：平均啦！大概、約略。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可能……"],["林委員淑芬：100件跑不掉吧，扣除銀行請求的信用卡債務案件，每個法官的負荷還是很重，你們把原來普通庭辦理的交通事件，藉由修法全部都推給簡易庭的法官辦理，那你們還做了什麼配套？配套在哪裡？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然簡易庭增加，而相關人力，相關的這部分都會去做整體的……"],["林委員淑芬：有增加嗎？各位庭、院長在這裡，簡易庭是這樣子，剛才副秘書長說，把所有交通民事請求案件交給簡易庭審理，然後有增加人力，這是事實嗎？這是事實嗎？把增加的人力、配置經費，按照每一個院分別把資料整理好，也送上來，我請求第二個資料。","我接到很多陳情，就是事實上簡易庭法官幾乎都不調查證據，因為你們以開一次庭為原則，法官就算想要調查證據也是心有餘而力不足，所以你們一直在強調比較快，我就不知道。那我再問你，如果重大的交通案件，當事人可以聲請改用通常程序嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有那個機制，如果比較複雜，當事人……"],["林委員淑芬：那個機制的法條是民事訴訟法第四百二十七條第五項：「第二項之訴訟，案情繁雜或其訴訟標的金額或價額逾第一項所定額數十倍以上者，法院得依當事人聲請，以裁定改用通常訴訟程序，並由原法官繼續審理。」第一個問題，請問這個條文裡面講的是，第一項所定額的數十倍以上，數十倍是幾倍，才可以改用通常程序？這是聲請人聲請就可以改了，或者還必須要由你們裁定？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然法官如果認為這一件要准許的話，法官會做一個裁定。"],["林委員淑芬：所以不是聲請人說了算嘛！法院得依當事人聲請去裁定，但決定權還是在法院身上。當事人為什麼不能夠聲請了就改通常程序審理？你們不是最喜歡講當事人程序自主權嗎？這個案件為什麼限縮成這個樣子，看起來好像有程序自主權，事實上是沒有了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想這部分，其實個案的情形不太一樣，如果……"],["林委員淑芬：個案，我在講通案……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：一個單純的當事人……一定要准的。"],["林委員淑芬：那我問你，數十倍到底是幾倍？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個部分可能看各案的……這個條文好像也不是數十……"],["林委員淑芬：唉唷！這都憑法官的意志，心裡面覺得他想要怎樣就怎樣啦！額數十倍，是「額數十倍」還是「數十倍」？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是「十倍」，不是「數十倍」。"],["林委員淑芬：十倍以上的，那你們所定的額數是多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：等於是五百……"],["林委員淑芬：500萬？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["林委員淑芬：500萬以上，傷亡的人才是傷亡；500萬以下就一審結案，人命有貴賤之分嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們會統計到底一審結案的有多少提供給委員，就我們辦實務的經驗來……"],["林委員淑芬：全部多少案件、一審結案多少，以及聲請通常程序審理的有多少、成功的有多少，你都要給資料。我還沒講完，然後你們說這個裁定要法官決定，簡易法庭的法官一個月一百件以上的案件都負荷不了，你還規定他要再寫一個裁定！所以我經常說理想很豐滿、現實很骨感，理想很棒，但執行起來可能嗎？你們弄這種規定是誰辦得到？你們的法官辦得到、簡易庭的法官辦得到嗎？你們要由原法官繼續審理，都已經改用通常程序了，為什麼這個案子不是交給普通法院審理？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：其實這個是當初在研修的時候，要由原法官繼續審理，當然會避免一個問題，今天如果他改，當然他的裁定不一定要寫書面，我們的民事裁定可以用不要式的、口頭也可以……"],["林委員淑芬：好啊！你在這裡回答的，發文通令全國各地方法院。你在這裡回答的要告訴所有的法官、簡易庭的法官，以後都不一定要書面裁定，你要發文喔！","可是你們還有另一條啊！你們違反人性的說法是這樣子，你叫他寫一個裁定，現在你說不用了，好，但寫不寫裁定，要改成通常程序，案子還是要寫，還是由原來的簡易庭法官審理，這不是「裝肖仔」嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果他可以……"],["林委員淑芬：哪一個簡易庭的法官會搬石頭砸自己的腳？我簡易庭簡單開一次庭結案的，我要把它改成通常程序，然後還要照一般程序處理，製造自己的困擾，最後改通常程序審理還是自己要審理！哪一個簡易庭的法官有這種時間、有這種能力、有這麼佛心來著，有嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：第一個，辦案期限也不一樣；第二個，當事人可能也期待要用通常程序……"],["林委員淑芬：他每個月都一百件以上，你說他辦案期限不一樣，我就不知道你們在搞什麼！這樣子好了，你們是不是怕大家都把案子移出去給普通法官，怕簡易庭的法官每個裁定都說：好、好、好，移出去。你是不是怕這個啦？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：制度當時規劃的時候，是希望不要移來移去，因為原來的法官對案情比較清楚，他審理的過程中，他如果繼續去……"],["林委員淑芬：原來的法官怎麼對案情比較清楚？很多法官開庭的時候，連卷宗都不一定看完，老實說，所以你們是怕他把它移出去以後案子減少，感覺你們其實是要防止簡易庭的法官偷懶。有關要如何改善交通事故案件在簡易庭進行的這些問題，我要再問你，來看一下這個例子，比如醫院鑑定報告說被害人失能比例是50%，簡易庭的法官看錯了，他在判決判成是20%，請問被害人能不能用這個理由說法院看錯證據，然後進行二審，甚至上訴到第三審最高法院，可不可以？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：假設採證跟認事不符，當然簡易案件也是可以上訴，即上訴到二審的簡上字，如果簡上字判了以後，具備非上訴要件，也有可能到……但要看個別的情形。"],["林委員淑芬：你都亂說！副秘書長，民事訴訟法第四百三十六條之二第一項規定，對於簡易訴訟程序之第二審裁判，其上訴利益逾第四百六十六條所定之額數者，當事人僅得以其適用法規顯有錯誤為理由，逕向最高法院提起上訴或抗告。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那就是飛躍上訴，也就是委員所講這個條文的要件。"],["林委員淑芬：我的重點是僅得以其適用法規顯有錯誤為理由……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：所以是可以飛躍……"],["林委員淑芬：而我剛才是說，明明是簡易庭的法官看錯，責任是50，他看成20，這樣子能上訴嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：適用法規顯有錯誤，當然有很多的要件。"],["林委員淑芬：他有適用法規的錯誤嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然，看適用法規是不是證據法則或者這一些東西，當然看個案最高法院的解釋，沒有辦法一概而論。"],["林委員淑芬：一般案子上訴第三審的規定，是依據民事訴訟法第四百六十九條：「有下列各款之情形之一者，其判決當然違背法令：一、判決法院之組織不合法。二、依法律或裁判應迴避之法官參與裁判。三、法院於審判權之有無辨別不當或違背專屬管轄之規定……」等等，但這裡面就沒有我們講的這一種。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剛才委員唸的是第四百六十九條，第四百六十八條的判決不適用法則或適用法則不當，這些都是構成上訴第三審的理由。"],["林委員淑芬：你講得很好！我同樣的請你回去立刻發函給全國各法院所有的法官，說有這種證據看錯的簡易判決也可以上訴到第三審，也就是最高法院，好不好？我要你發兩個文了！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：回去……"],["林委員淑芬：你要發文給所有法院的所有法官，可以上訴上去，可以嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我講的這個部分業務廳會去研議。"],["林委員淑芬：研議？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，就是如何發文……的內容……"],["林委員淑芬：我就照你在這裡回答的「可以」，然後請你發文。我請你發文的第一個問題，你還記得嗎？可以嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，那個就是裁定的形式，是不是？就是裁定改程序的理由。"],["林委員淑芬：主席，我已經忘了我剛才第一個問他什麼。沒關係，我可以回去再調。"],["主席：副秘書長的意思是怎麼發文這個部分要研議，不是說內容要研議，怎麼發文……"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼發文怎麼會需要研議？應該是內容。你困難的地方……"],["主席：內容已經講了。"],["林委員淑芬：是我剛才要你發文的內容，你要研議，你的困難在那裡。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：還沒！報告主席，我快要問完了。"],["主席：我們最後一局要打很久嗎？好……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要講的是，法院其實是要實現人民的權利，你們整個制度的修法，把所有交通民事訴訟的案件全部改成簡易庭審理，真的影響了人民權利很大，而文化資本不一樣的當事人、經濟資本不一樣的當事人，他們的能力也差別很大，這個是有階級性的。現在這樣下去，大概只有經濟資本、文化資本高的人才有辦法進行民事交通案件的訴訟。否則其他的人去到那邊才發現不知道要怎麼保障、主張自己權利的時候，已經沒有第二審、第二庭了，然後要上訴上去也很難，所以今天在這裡……你們經常在說司法國是會議的結論要我們做什麼，醫療糾紛鑑定要具名也是根據司法國是會議的結論，但是你要想配套在哪裡，真的有配套嗎？你們真的有資源進來嗎？真的可行嗎？如果不可行，像你們醫療糾紛鑑定就擺爛擺在那裡，幾百個當事人的案件沒有辦法審理。交通事故案件的民事訴訟也需要發現真實，涉及人民傷亡的賠償案件，你們竟然把它變成簡易到不需要發現真實了呢？110年的修法到底是發生了什麼事？執行起來真的像你講的嗎？簡易庭的法官真的會允許他改通常程序審理，然後自己再去審嗎？真的有這種法官嗎？難怪有幾個簡易庭的法官不做了，你知道嗎？簡易庭真的有好幾個法官不想做了，你知道嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然司法……"],["林委員淑芬：法官也覺得於心不忍，這跟他當時要成為一個法官的初衷相違背，只因為你們認為這樣制度是好的、有效率的，可以快速解決的，可是事實上，犧牲的卻是當事人的權益，包括醫糾訴訟的修法也是一樣，我認為你們講的有道理，可是現實面，法律界跟醫界要鬥法，臺灣社會兩大自然組、社會組的最菁英在那裡鬥法，犧牲的是人民的權益，擺爛在那裡，這樣做都是錯的！但是副秘書長要離開了，抱歉！真正的、未來的副秘書長，我也不曉得你能不能有這樣的魄力、支持度上有足夠的支撐，可以讓你來好好修正。現在大家一個推一個，院長代理，沒有秘書長，然後副秘書長要離開，再換一個副秘書長。我們在這裡審法案、審預算，都不知道在審什麼。當然有一部分的責任是立法院要承擔的，因為立法院沒有儘快行使院長和副院長的人事審查，所以我們知道一部分責任是我們要承擔、立法院要承擔。但是我們講的這個，如果新的院長來了、副院長來了，秘書長也產出了，你們可以在這個事情上面願意多想想、多思考怎麼解決嗎？願意嗎？打著改革的旗幟做出來的人民沒有受益，反而未蒙其利，先受其害，這才是大問題！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝黃副秘書長，謝謝王院長。最後一局兩好、三壞、二在壘、二出局、滿球數，會打得比較久一點。","接下來，請羅委員智強，羅智強委員、羅智強委員不在。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員羅智強、沈發惠、謝龍介所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},{"id":"157431","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c74680de7d0f46de3ebbf47e6092a313d3da481f0a8051d8b2a5e1aacc5385281515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:03:53 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共同意約的模式來協助我們把這個價格有效來降價"},{"start":104.69,"end":125.976,"text":"有效來降下來對我剛才聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意有效降到55億可是我現在又有一個疑問那為什麼你們當初就直接編列115億元比如說你這對數量你是同樣的數量可是你還是編列115億元可不可以再說明一下報告委員當初我們還沒有在55億我們沒有得到這個最後裝備發價數是55億的時候你就直接變115億"},{"start":132.608,"end":140.797,"text":"我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理"},{"start":148.137,"end":167.564,"text":"我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛才幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來說明資料的時候"},{"start":169.005,"end":181.027,"text":"我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double"},{"start":181.536,"end":210.722,"text":"所以我們必須要清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才陳冠廷委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統"},{"start":211.522,"end":233.598,"text":"他們的政權 他們的談判的能力 如果說我們照單全收的話我是希望照單全收的是量 不是說他的金額金額是固定 結果我們量反而是二分之一我們不希望是這樣子 我們當然知道有他作戰的需求作戰的裝備 國防在預算我們會都支持但是必須要 你要考量一下說 怎麼這種浮動變化之大所以今天為什麼會有這個專案報告 這麼多委員在討論也是因為"},{"start":236.5,"end":253.425,"text":"這一個部分我是希望未來的說明這個落差還有這個解釋的資料的時候可以用一些表格比較清晰的讓我們講出來不然我全部都混雜在一起今年、明年、去年五十五億、六十億這些的價差都是百分之百的差別"},{"start":254.85,"end":265.18,"text":"我們現在想請教一下,那依照這個作戰的場域,我上次聽到我們這個國防部的官員來我們辦公室提到的時候,他說是依照對方的裝備,所以我們在採購,我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備,反他們的裝備嘛,所以現在看起來900多套的這個裝備還是遠遠不足的,我們是不是可以這樣子說?"},{"start":276.205,"end":291.533,"text":"報告委員沒有錯目前我們在光是反甲型的需求依照我們的需要是要上千套以上上千套以上那如果真的是編列總共900多套還夠嗎900多這包含685套是人員殺傷所以291套是反甲型的291是初次採購的"},{"start":299.258,"end":322.111,"text":"我跟委員報告的是說,面對共軍的各式登陸的可能的戰甲車輛,我們需求要上千套以上。上千套,所以我們大概還有短缺大概六、七百套左右,因應他們的裝備。那我們自己足夠有沒有自己的自製能力?因為剛才有提到說有複數的來源來比價,那包含本身的自產的能力也是未來可以作為談判的一個籌碼嗎?"},{"start":323.612,"end":329.997,"text":"我們當然現在正在進行相關的努力反甲型的無人機我國"},{"start":335.129,"end":350.494,"text":"現在中科院我想比較著重的是在先是人員殺傷型的這個部分那防專家型的部分可能還要後續現在還沒有這個"},{"start":357.983,"end":371.418,"text":"所以我們在督促這個中科院再來根據這個人員殺傷型的這個部分然後再來進一步發展這個反專家型的那我想我們都會用外購跟自治這個兩種的這個部分來進行"},{"start":377.743,"end":386.507,"text":"要增加談判的籌碼就是外購的商員總量多有自治的能力就算自治的能力不夠成熟"},{"start":388.353,"end":389.713,"text":"明年編列二十一關於潛艦的部分"},{"start":411.718,"end":436.891,"text":"那其實這幾天有很多的媒體都有談到說我們在野黨可能要針對明年編列的部分來去凍檢刪那特別是有些是全面刪除有些是保留大概剩下兩億元那保留兩億元的部分他們是認為說這個是能夠某種程度是前期簽約他還是可以完成那也不會影響到整個簡建國造的歷程"},{"start":437.992,"end":455.731,"text":"我想請部長﹚或者是我們其他的同仁﹚各位解釋一下說為什麽我們需要這20億﹚為什麽這20億是不能夠暫時被動減上﹚會影響到後面的期程﹚是不是可以簡單說明一下跟委員報告主要是這樣就是說﹚因為臺船他現在如果"},{"start":457.152,"end":478.718,"text":"我們現在在海上測試我已經一再的承諾就是海測通過之後我們才會動用這個錢但在這個之前呢我想我們還是要讓這個台船它要先行這個去備料然後跟這些預約等等然後後續的這些可能的"},{"start":480.302,"end":482.123,"text":"主要主要是這樣子不好意思內閣部長所以如果說他們"},{"start":505.592,"end":505.752,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":270,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時3分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案，其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員跟我們說明執行規劃，整體的規劃編列預算最開始是60億元，後來114年美國國會是說115億。剛才幾位委員在討論的時候，我有聽到戰規司的司長提到必須要考量包含通膨等等因素在裡面，可是從60億到115億，這樣算起來的通膨率是百分之百，我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高，可不可以稍微解釋一下，當你們看到115億時，你們的心態是怎麼樣？是不是覺得怎麼會有這樣龐大的預算？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，它的項目當然不是只有通膨而已，剛剛陳永康委員有列出一個表，裡面大概有八大類，但是它的項目非常龐雜，美方也不會跟我們公布這些詳細項目。但我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關案例來看，當我們發現軍售案跟初估報價的價格價差超過20%以上，我們就會視為不合理，一定會跟美方進行洽談，了解實際上價格超溢的原因。這次也是採取同樣模式，最後美方也透過共同議約模式協助我們把價格有效降下來。"],["陳委員冠廷：有效降下來？對，聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意，可以有效降到55億。可是我現在又有一個疑問，為什麼你們當初會直接編列115億元？表示你們對數量……這是同樣的數量，可是你們還是編列115億元？可不可以再說明一下？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，當初美方……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們還沒有拿到最後裝備發價書是55億的時候，你們就直接編115億了！"],["黃司長文啓：我們不會這樣編列。因為美方給我們的初估報價只有六十餘億，所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算，後續再視美方實際發價書的價格來做處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：我要講這件事情的原因在於，我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制。我們談了那麼久，剛才幾位委員都在講，由於幅度之大，所以我們不能給空白授權！也就是說預算紀律還有直接……像跟我說明資料的時候，我們看上面所列的專案內容與執行概況，都會誤以為這115億元的意思是代表，美方當初以115億幫我們編列的時候，是要讓我們裝備的數量可以直接double！所以我們必須要很清楚知道我們編列的預算與我們需要多少量能，且量能跟預算必須要成正比。如果他們說多少，我們就編多少，等於完全沒有談判籌碼，沒有談判機制。剛才陳永康委員……對，我剛才有看到你們講的裡面所列的各個大項，每一個項目都很清楚，但還是希望國防部能仔細思考一下，未來我們要怎麼樣去跟人家談判！未來川普總統的政權、他們的談判能力，如果我們照單全收的話，那麼我希望照單全收的是量，而不是金額。若金額是固定的，結果量反而是二分之一，我們不希望是這樣子。我們當然知道你們有作戰需求，也需要作戰裝備，我們都支持國防預算，但必須要考量一下怎麼浮動變化會如此之大。今天為什麼會有這個專案報告，有這麼多委員在討論？正是因為如此。我希望未來你們在說明價格落差與解釋資料時，可以用一些表格，可以比較清晰地讓我們瞭解，不然會全部都混在一起，今年、明年甚至去年，55億、60億，這些價差都是到百分之百的差別。","我現在想請教一下，依照作戰場域不同，上次國防部官員來我們辦公室說明時提到，是依照對方的裝備……我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備，即反他們的裝備。現在看起來，這九百多套裝備還是遠遠不足的，我是不是可以這樣說？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，沒有錯，目前我們光是反甲型的需求就需要上千套以上。"],["陳委員冠廷：上千套以上？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果編列九百多套還夠嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：九百多是包含685套是人員殺傷型……"],["陳委員冠廷：所以291套是反甲型的？"],["陳參謀長建義：291套是初次採購的。我跟委員報告，面對共軍各式登陸的可能戰甲車輛，我們的需求要上千套以上。"],["陳委員冠廷：上千套？所以大概還短缺六、七百套左右，好因應他們的裝備？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們自己有沒有足夠的自製能力？剛才提到有複式的來源比價，所以包含本身自產能力也是未來可以作為談判的籌碼嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在當然正在進行相關的努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以反甲型無人機，我國……若以中科院的評價來說，我們有機會有自製能力嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：現在中科院比較著重在人員殺傷型的部分，至於反裝甲型的部分，可能還要看後續，現在還沒有一定的成果出來。所以我們再督促中科院，根據人員殺傷型來進一步發展反裝甲型，我想我們會以外購跟自製兩種方式來進行。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我還是要強調一下，要增加談判籌碼第一個是外購商源總量多，第二個是有自製能力。其實我們有時候不好意思這樣講，不過就算自製能力還不夠成熟，卻也可以作為談判的籌碼。這點從過去空軍的研發就可以知道，當我們具備某種能力再去商購相關裝備，可能會更加順遂，至少在金額方面我們比較有底氣跟人家做談判。","再來，我想要針對明年編列20億元的潛艦預算請教。這幾天很多媒體談到，在野黨可能要針對明年編列的預算做凍、減、刪，有些甚至是全面刪除，有些則保留大概剩下2億元。之所以保留2億元是因為他們認為，某種程度還是可以完成前期簽約，也不會影響潛艦國造的歷程。部長或其他同仁可不可以解釋一下，為什麼我們需要這20億？為什麼這20億不能被凍、減、刪，因為會影響到後面的期程？是不是可以簡單說明一下？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，主要是因為台船……我們現在在做海上測試，我也一再承諾在海測通過之後才會動用這筆錢。在這之前，我們要台船先行備料、議約等等，還有後續次承包商等等都要進行相關的作業，這些都可能要運用他自己的款項來預付，我們不付；等到海測通過之後，我們再動支相關預算，主要是這樣子。"],["陳委員冠廷：不好意思，部長，如果他們保留到僅剩2億，這樣子足夠我們後來的……"],["顧部長立雄：我們當然希望……最好的方式就是海測通過前，我們不動支任何一毛錢；在海測通過之後，我們看看台船已經動支多少錢，我們就依照它已經動支的數目來補給台船，讓它的金流能夠順遂。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","接下來進行詢答的委員是黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}},{"id":"157430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c741be17eb39647d307d385048732c8e563a481f0a8051d8b2a183e890e354bbf0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:11:36 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案 。"},{"start":473.4,"end":477.684,"text":"法務部來主編嗎?或者是說其實有關於律師的訓練這部分不應該是交由各個律師公會來舉辦就好了?我們有必要再花4000多萬去成立一個刑事辯護中心嗎?在你們這次的預算書當中其實寫得非常非常的簡略。"},{"start":492.535,"end":495.059,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":508.898,"end":514.18,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議"},{"start":527.626,"end":527.847,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":545.387,"end":549.751,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":566.405,"end":568.867,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":591.481,"end":618.661,"text":"請教一個問題這也是最近看到新聞上面有講這個我們才剛剛這個尤賴清德總統請我們這個謝明洋大法官來擔任代理司法院院長據報導是說這個司法院院長竟然就解編了副院長跟秘書長室的人請問是不是真有這回事"},{"start":619.821,"end":624.045,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":645.509,"end":665.823,"text":"其實對我們來講是從旁會感受到是不是賴總統已經打算不再提名這個司法院院長或司法院院長副院長他是不是已經有在心理準備反正呢就算是這批大法官司法院長副院長大法官人選不通過他也不再提名了"},{"start":666.724,"end":667.365,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案。"},{"start":685.54,"end":709.495,"text":"公文報告因為我們希望說不會很久所以...所以...既然不會很久竟然做這樣的事情這不是讓人家就覺得此地無銀三百兩好像在賣總統就認為說打...就鐵了心好反正這批大法官立法院不同意通過他也擺爛也就不再提名啊這個其實這問題很嚴重啦我當然這回去可能要跟這個謝院長講說他是代理院長"},{"start":716.055,"end":740.515,"text":"代理院長基本上就是守成不要做這麼大幅度的這業務變動好像變成說這個會讓人家認為說他不是看起來大法官沒通過這個這個最就是最有力的就是這個謝院長因為他就可以一直代理院長下去這樣給大家社會觀真不好"},{"start":742.261,"end":742.621,"text":"憲法法庭公開書狀規則出了很大的問題"},{"start":771.108,"end":793.799,"text":"憲法法庭怎麼可以說是只公佈人家的這個訴訟答辯狀等等的這書狀只公佈10頁然後剩下人家寫了很多的都不公開後來大概也是因為有壓力所以你們才全文公開但是我認為你們應該要檢討這個公開書狀規則同時在整個憲法訴訟法的這個受理要件上面也要重新進行檢討到底少數委員能夠申請釋憲的條件"},{"start":800.663,"end":827.974,"text":"申請機關、申請釋憲的要件。這是應該都要具體寫清楚。對不對?我們認為說過去曲中立大法官他寫了很多論文還有在他所做的判決裡面我們都按照他的意思寫說這些條件都不應該受理的。結果全部都被推翻。這代表什麼?這代表我們憲法訴訟法訂的不夠明確。"},{"start":831.584,"end":849.257,"text":"所以本席希望你們這個在下個會期就是應該要積極的提出憲法訴訟法的修法要將這個可以申請憲法訴訟的各個要件不管是少數委員少數立法委員的提起申請事件要件還有各機關還有機關爭議的就申請要件都應該要"},{"start":855.737,"end":856.818,"text":"提案來修法。」好,謝謝翁委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時11分）主席好，有請黃副秘書長，還有法扶基金會周執行長以及未來即將擔任副秘書長的王院長。"],["主席：有請黃副秘書長、法扶基金會周執行長以及王院長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：黃副秘書長還有周執行長、王院長，你們好。首先，想請教你們有沒有聽過一句話叫做「半瓶水響叮噹」，有沒有聽過？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有聽過。"],["翁委員曉玲：就是我們臺灣的俗諺，「半瓶水響叮噹」，我當立法委員後，尤其一開始就被分派到司法及法制委員會，我真的是感受特別深，什麼叫「半瓶水響叮噹」？其實司法及法制委員會是一個非常強調專業素養，有高專業門檻的一個委員會，可是我們常常聽到非法律專業的委員，像是吳思瑤委員、柯建銘委員，常常就在那裡大放厥詞，竟然說憲法訴訟法的修法是政治報復，請問你們三位同意這句話嗎？請問黃副秘書長，你同意這句話嗎？我們修憲法訴訟法是政治報復嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，憲法訴訟法當然是一個專業的討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果是不夠專業的討論，如果不是一針見血，我相信今天民進黨不會發動這麼多的律師團體等等上街抗議，我要講的是，我在這邊其實是尊重我們中華民國人民的集會遊行權利，他們有表達言論自由的權利，所以即便連續兩個禮拜都有律師還有民間團體走上街頭，針對本席所提憲法訴訟法的修法內容表達抗議，可是，我想這畢竟是一個非常專業的討論，我也尊重他們的意見。","回到專業的討論，請問憲法訴訟法的有權修法機關是哪個機關？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然主管機關是司法院。"],["翁委員曉玲：主管機關是司法院，修法機關呢？誰有權修法？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那個是立法院、大院的職權。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以立法院是不是有立法形成自由？我們是不是有立法裁量空間？我們對於憲法法庭的審理規則要如何制定，立法院有沒有權可以做決定？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然大院可以決定如何修法，但是要在憲法的架構之下。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以你認為我們現在的修法不符合憲法架構嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想這部分是專業的討論，我們尊重大院的職權。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以我們所提出的修法內容，基本上當然是符合憲法的精神，符合我們立法相關的程序，一步一步都是按照正當法律程序來走。如果今天大法官都可以要求我們的法院針對死刑合議制判決要求一致決的時候，為什麼我們沒有權力可以強化憲法法庭的審理門檻、提高憲法訴訟審理的程序門檻？這樣有問題嗎？請問副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：在憲法上面，是不是符合憲法，這是憲法法庭的職權，我們司法行政沒有辦法去替憲法法庭回答問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：我請教你，誰來約束憲法法庭的職權？大法官今天如果做了一個違憲、違法的憲法判決，誰有權力可以去節制大法官？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果選舉的民眾有意見，當然要用修憲的程序，當然民意還是可以去做……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問王院長，您認為誰有權力可以節制大法官的權力？當大法官擴權的時候，從我們現行的憲法、法律角度來看，有辦法解決這個問題嗎？我想這等到王院長如果您被提名大法官的時候，我可以再次請教您或是黃副秘書長。","言歸正傳，其實我今天想要針對司法院的預算，還有法扶基金會所提出的預算就教你們。首先，我看了你們提出的預算報告書，其實都有講到現在法扶基金會常常被批評去扶助一些不是所謂無資力的扶助對象；另外，我也有看到一個問題，就是法扶基金會這些年來的預算不斷的增加，從一開始、最原始是編5億的預算，到現在幾乎每年都是編14億，然後下年度甚至編15億，所以在預算擴編、不斷提高的情況之下，我想請教的是，對於法律扶助對象你們有沒有進行檢討？未來有沒有增加所謂的排富條款？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，之前有委員垂詢這個問題，其實我們在相關的制度底下，跟基金會都有在溝通，像以前一些的勞動專案跟原民專案，我們都希望能夠訂定排富條款。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，既然你們早就看到這個問題，我也希望你們能夠積極地提出修法，畢竟國家的經費預算是有限的，法扶無法開源，就只能節流，從這個角度來看的話，應該要將排富條款儘早地提出修法。","第二個部分，本席看到你們這次法扶基金預計成立一個刑事辯護中心，可是這個刑事辯護中心該是法扶基金會成立的嗎？你們成立這個的目的到底是什麼？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然刑事辯護中心就是要提升法律扶助基金會在一些像強制辯護案件的辯護量能，當然現在一個很大的重點就是國民法官的制度，國民法官制度大家也都知道，大概都是參考日本的裁判員法，日本的裁判員法實施之後，他們也有在提升辯護的量能，這一部分也是由他們的司法支援中心（Houterasu）來做，其實大致是類似法扶，由法務部編預算提升辯護量能，至於為什麼會這樣……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，如果成立刑事辯護中心的目的是為了強化、培養一些了解國民法官審判實務運作的律師的話，難道不應該是由法務部來主編嗎？或者是說，其實有關於律師的訓練，這部分不應該是交由各個律師公會來舉辦就好了，我們有必要再花四千多萬去成立一個刑事辯護中心嗎？在你們這次的預算書當中，其實寫得非常非常的簡略，看不出來你們要成立這個刑事辯護中心的合理性，而且看不出你們的組織、規劃是如何，本席認為這個地方其實是有必要請你們再補充說明，好嗎？","然後還有另外一個問題，就像我剛剛講的，就是你們無法開源就要節流，除了刑事辯護中心之外，我們看到法扶中心在之前有一些補助活動，似乎也不應該是法扶做的，更何況你們補助的一些活動可能還跟我們廣大的民意相背馳，像你們今年1月出了一本書「聚沙成塔．拒殺之辯」，這個基本上就是你們支持廢死聯盟去出這個書，你們拿的是國家的經費耶，如果你們補助廢死聯盟出這本書，你們是不是也應該補助被害家屬也要出另外一本書，主張維持死刑這樣的書？所以你們在補助這些活動的時候，其實要特別注意，不要忘記你們拿的是國家的公帑，最好不要在這些有爭議性的議題上去亂補助，還是回到你們法扶的本業，我認為比較重要。這個部分之後也請法扶提供一個報告給我，待會最後一案會說。","接下來我還要再請教一個問題，這也是最近看到新聞上面有講，才剛剛由賴清德總統邀請謝銘洋大法官來擔任代理司法院院長，結果據報導，這個代理司法院院長竟然就解編了副院長跟秘書長室的人，請問是不是真有這回事？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這不是叫做解編，就是現在那幾個辦公室因為沒有首長，所以那一邊的業務就沒有辦法推動，其實他們原來很多都是占缺的，所以他們就到其他的廳處去，所以所謂的解編……"],["翁委員曉玲：可是我必須講，從謝代理院長這個舉動，對我們來講，會從旁感受到是不是賴總統已經打算不再提名司法院院長、副院長？他是不是已經有心理準備，反正就算這批司法院長、副院長、大法官人選不通過，他也不再提名了？這會讓人家有這樣的聯想。而且其實從謝代理院長的這個舉動，坦白說，我現在就認為立法院之後也不需要再編列副院長、秘書長特支費，相關業務經費全部刪除，反正你們現在也不知道預期有多久嘛。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我們希望不會很久，所以……"],["翁委員曉玲：既然不會很久，竟然做這樣的事情，這不是讓人家覺得此地無銀三百兩嗎？好像賴總統就鐵了心，好，反正這批大法官立法院不同意通過，他也擺爛，也就不再提名啦。其實這個問題很嚴重，我當然……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個可能是……"],["翁委員曉玲：這個回去可能要跟謝院長講，他是代理院長，代理院長基本上就是守成，不要做這麼大幅度的業務變動，會讓人家認為看起來大法官沒通過，最有利的就是謝院長，因為他就可以一直代理院長下去，這樣社會觀瞻不好。","接下來，我還要再提一個問題，就是你們這次的報告書有提到，你們未來會針對憲法訴訟法的修法進行檢討，我們知道其實在這次的憲法訴訟的辯論過程當中，包含本席及其他的委員，還有很多的法律專家、學者都認為，憲法法庭的公開書狀規則出了很大的問題，憲法法庭怎麼可以只公布10頁人家的訴訟答辯狀等等書狀，剩下的人家寫了很多的都不公開，後來大概也是因為有壓力，所以你們才全文公開，但是我認為你們應該要檢討這個公開書狀規則。同時，在整個憲法訴訟法的受理要件上也要重新進行檢討，到底少數委員能夠聲請釋憲的條件、聲請機關聲請釋憲的要件，這些應該都要具體寫清楚，對不對？我們認為過去許宗力大法官寫了很多論文，還有在他所做的判決裡面，我們都按照他的意旨寫說，這些條件都不應該受理了，結果全部都被推翻，這代表我們憲法訴訟法定得不夠明確。所以本席希望你們在下個會期應該要積極的提出憲法訴訟法的修法，要將可以聲請憲法訴訟的各個要件，不管是少數立法委員聲請釋憲要件，還是各機關、具機關爭議的聲請要件，都應該要提案修法。我覺得我的手腳其實比你們快，如果你們不趕快提，到時候我修法的時候，你們就不要說我是毀憲亂政，好不好？那就麻煩你們儘快修。我剛剛列在ppt上面的四個問題，也麻煩司法院在兩週之內提出書面報告給我，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員，謝謝黃副秘書長、王院長等人。","接下來有請羅委員廷瑋，羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋不在。","請葉元之委員，葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請羅明才委員，羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},{"id":"157429","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157429","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c7402b138637c7c446dd385048732c8e563a481f0a8051d8b2adc5543f29fdbc7c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:05:09 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案 被公告。」所以陳培宇這個老師就不能再去校外相關的體制例如說安親班、客服班會接觸到小孩的工作去上班這是為了確保我們兒少的權益可是呢我們積極跟你們司法院這邊開會你們在7月30號回給我們一個公文公文最後一句話請複密看一下設政機關如果需要相關的判例確定資料你們叫設政機關自己要找法務部跟檢察署來提供"},{"start":327.745,"end":340.876,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":357.609,"end":361.631,"text":"審查司法院審理法草案案案件事件審理法草案案件事件審理法草案案件事件審理法草案案件"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":771,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時5分）謝謝主席，接下來有請司法院秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，黃副秘早安。有一件事情其實是真的要來積極的拜託司法院，我等一下要講的議題並不在司法院的政策視野當中，所以要拜託黃副秘，我們一起來研究該怎麼辦。","我現在要跟您分享的是，新竹縣去（2023）年暑假期間有性侵過學生的老師，他依然在相關的社區運動俱樂部當老師，然後對外招生，但這個事情到底是怎麼回事呢？照理說，他應該有進入所謂的社政開罰系統當中，但是副秘你應該知道，社政系統跟司法系統之間的名單是沒有互相勾稽的，甚且以這個案子為例，他在判刑還沒有確定之前，依然有一個很大的空窗期，繼續在外面以他個人的名義也好，以工作室受聘老師的名義也好，繼續當社區運動的教練，跟我們的孩子日夜相處，然後教導孩子做很多運動。這個問題在我去年上任之後積極地跟教育部、衛福部還有司法院這邊溝通。以新竹這個案例來說，他目前的答案是起訴不確定，可是我要跟副秘報告，他起訴不確定，不是因為他沒有對小孩做出傷害的事情，而是因為在調查的過程當中，孩子們沒有辦法明確的講清楚狀況，於是這個判例就這樣結束了。還好當地的爸爸媽媽社團，有很多人在提醒說：請小心這個人，這個人有相關的案例，只是因為判例最後沒有確定。於是有很多的爸爸、媽媽出來提醒大家要小心，不要去報名這個課程，要避開這個老師。還有當地的社工也很關心，社工才把這個案子撿回社政單位做行政裁罰。到目前為止，副秘你知道我要問什麼了嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：請委員指教。"],["陳委員培瑜：意思就是說，目前兒少法應該裁罰的事件可以分三個方向，社政、教育跟司法，其中教育跟司法過去因為回歸到各自的行政調查還有偵辦，所以就算有了結果，也不會回送給社政機關做裁罰，這就是我剛剛說的，兒少法裁罰的黑數，對嗎？我現在理解是對的，對不對？就你們司法的部分。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然案情我們沒有事先得到訊息，但是剛委員所講的，他好像被檢察官不起訴處分確定，那是不是這整個案子都沒有到我們司法所屬法院的這個體系？"],["陳委員培瑜：有在你們司法體系當中，不管他判例有沒有確定，你們的司法系統都不會把這個案例的資料送回給社政系統去做裁罰。所以我身為家長，如果我要把我的小孩送去某個夏令營、送去某個社區運動俱樂部，我想要去兒少法裁罰公告的地方查查看，例如陳培瑜這個人過去有沒有對兒少做不好的事情，對於兒少法第四十九條，我在衛福部公告網站上是查不到陳培瑜這個人的，因為就算我的判例確定了，司法系統也沒有告訴社政系統說這個人是不適用的，所以兩個系統之間的資料是沒有勾稽在一起的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為如果他是在起訴、不起訴的階段，那是在法務部的階段……"],["陳委員培瑜：是、是，那最後判例確定之後呢？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果他有起訴才會到司法體系，如果他……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯、沒錯，他會在司法體系，可是你們沒有把資料回送給社政體系啊。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：容我們回去了解，因為……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，我告訴你發生什麼事情。您剛剛這樣的回答就確實證明我剛開始說的，不在你們過去的政策視野當中，所以我在遞補上任之後，我們努力了一整年，我們拜託教育部跟衛福部先做一件事情，在校園事件當中，過往教育部對於發生在校園裡面的相關事件，必須要被懲處的這些大人的名單，他們過往也只有公布在封閉的系統裡面，一般人是查不到的，但是後來他們去跟衛福部溝通，必須要送給社政系統去公告，假設有某一個陳培瑜老師，他在A校做了性侵小孩、性騷小孩的事情，後來被判不適任，必須要離開校園，那他的名字就會被回送到衛福部兒少法裁罰系統裡面然後被公告，所以這位陳培瑜老師就不能再去校外相關的體制，例如說安親班、課輔班這些會接觸到小孩的地方去工作、去上班，這是為了確保我們兒少的權益。","可是，我們積極跟你們司法院這邊開會後，你們在7月30號回給我們一個公文，公文最後一句話請副秘看一下，社政機關如果需要相關的判例確定資料，你們叫社政機關自己去找法務部跟檢察署來提供。我想要問的是，這中間很大的資料黑數，沒有辦法協助家長確切掌握到底某一個老師他是不是真的適合繼續留在不同的教育現場陪伴我們的小孩，如同我剛剛說，社區裡面有非常多的，比方說有社區運動俱樂部、有安親班、有課輔班，還有非常非常多的實驗教育團隊，現在民間有非常多多元的教育團隊可以接觸到小孩，但是他產生了一個很大的漏洞，我的時間有限，我快速做出結論，我想要拜託司法院評估，未來關於不當對待兒少事件之裁判確定之後，同步回送資訊給社政單位，做兒少法第四十九條裁罰的公告，但是如果你們現在沒有法源依據可以公告、可以回送，那我們就來討論是不是要修法？總之，我們會再找你們來開會，謝謝主席。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝黃副秘書長。","接下來有請翁委員曉玲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},{"id":"157428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c74bb3801278d522fafd385048732c8e563a481f0a8051d8b2ab8c40d3938d270f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:50:28 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:"審查司法院組審理法草案案 案。"},{"start":693.126,"end":721.021,"text":"我今天又可以很正能量的來面對立法院的這些不合理的政治攻防。場所精神是重要的是不是未來的副秘書長我們可以來我覺得這是一個非常健康的好的方式不管是文化的或是運動的運動類的活動休閒的活動帶頭來做吧好嗎好謝謝委員免令好這都是治標了下一頁心理架可以去研議一下"},{"start":722.624,"end":751.445,"text":"現在公務部門人事總處也要來增加對於公務部門的心理調適假的增定不是為了放假而是為了讓每一個請身心調適假的司法人員他能夠被我們的人事體系追蹤管考他可能承擔了心靈上的一些困難需要我們及時來介入來剛剛有小抄遞上來了副秘書長你有什麼要回答嗎"},{"start":752.515,"end":778.544,"text":"公務員報告當然如果因為這個這個假大概主管是人事總統詮釋部如果他們有這樣的相關規定我們司法院當然樂觀其成那但是除了放假以外我們現在剛才委員所垂行的那個心理健康方案我們現在已經推動全國那就我們的統計裡面現在法官以外的這個同仁去請求這個心理心理健康照護的"},{"start":779.304,"end":807.645,"text":"其實已經有相當的這個量﹖好,我們還預算一次兩千五一年有八次好好讓這個福利這也不能叫福利啦這個提供的必要的幫助讓大家需要的人能夠受惠我最後的時間來治本的部分下一頁我想我們的人員要補齊下一頁我想問一下中央政府機關總原文法不是要提出修法嗎希望能夠放寬第三類人員就是司法人員的上限你們法案到哪裡了"},{"start":809.206,"end":830.641,"text":"我們都在跟行政院因為之前之前因為主管的這個法案是人事總處人事總處所以我們在跟他們說明跟請求得到支持因為這個修法必須由他們提出來那但是但是成如委員所垂詢的目前我們還在溝通當中所有的這個這個"},{"start":832.322,"end":837.945,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":850.63,"end":856.573,"text":"法律扶助基金會審理法草案案案件,及司法院及法律扶助基金會審理法草案案件,及司法院及法律扶助基金會審理法草案案件,及"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時50分）謝謝主席。在場所有司法院各個院長們大家好，我自我介紹，我是吳思瑤，我過去在教育文化領域，現在是司法及法制委員會的新手，我也一路在學習，很高興可以跟大家對話，我先請我們的黃副秘……"],["主席：請黃副秘。"],["吳委員思瑤：也請未來要接任的王院長預做準備，適應一下。"],["主席：王院長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：其實過去我在教育文化領域每年審議預算，總是一年一會，坐在這裡的都是所有國立大學的校長，一年一會，司法及法制委員會就是所有法院的院長，我非常珍惜可以跟大家對話的這個機會。","司法院眼前的三大挑戰，總預算能不能夠過關；人事案能不能夠就表定，現在是12月24號，已經延宕了，但是趕進度把它審議完成；第三個當然是職場減壓，我們所有司法人員的過勞問題，我一一來就教。","一言不合就砍預算？我非常期待在野黨的委員要理性，不要因為司法的個案或者是憲判的結果，就劍指司法院的預算，這不是理性的審議，我整理出過去幾年司法及法制委員會審查司法院的預算，我發現其實立法院對於司法院平等相維，預算基本上是尊重的。","依據憲法增修條文第五條第六項也很清楚地明定，司法院的司法預算是獨立的，行政院也不能夠刪減，它只能夠加註意見，一併移送立法院審議。所以站在司法預算獨立的角度，又對應於過去這幾年，民進黨作為國會多數的時候，凍結數平均是1,296萬，只占0.33%，減列數更低，只減了70.6萬，其占比是0.0176%，而統刪數比較高，這是立法院針對各個部會，包括行政院的所屬機關有個統刪，所以統刪最後是高達1億2,653萬，比例是3%左右。我做出這個表格，我希望在野黨的委員們嚴格來監督把關司法預算，畢竟預算來自於民脂民膏，但是捍衛司法預算機關的獨立，我認為憲政機關之間平等相維。","黃副秘您即將要離開這個位子，未來持續接棒，要在立法院捍守預算，包括可能王院長也要深入各個委員辦公室，到各個黨團去說明預算，你做好準備了嗎？"],["王院長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢，應該是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我做的這個表格你可以拿去用，就是我們用……數字會說話，過去國會對於司法預算的獨立性是給予尊重的，我希望你們可以站在這個角度，而且憲法增修條文第五條第六項給了我們一個很好的保護傘，希望大家能夠善用。","昨天大家都有看棒球嘛？七局上的時候，我們的潘帥潘傑楷一個撲壘，結果被一壘的裁判判safe嘛？先safe嘛？後來去調帶子，大會的主審去review了整個影帶，最後是out，我們要有運動員的精神，不會因為主審的裁判判定不服，就要來推翻裁判的判決，這在運動場上是運動員的風度。","同樣在面對大法官憲法法庭的判決，國會也應當有這樣的風度，不是因為憲判判定了不利於您的個案，就要來惡修憲法訴訟法，在制度面將與人事同意權的相交適用產生了風險，在實體面會形成另一種形式的反多數決困境，在價值面會使孤立絕緣的結構弱勢更為邊緣，而在效益上增加評議的成本，將使我們憲法法庭的案件難以消化，這是我反對惡修憲法訴訟法，還有這麼多的律師、民團走上街頭，請問王院長做好準備了嗎？未來在修法協商時你也要來的，雖然已經被強行送出了委員會。"],["王院長梅英：謝謝委員勉勵，我在努力中。"],["吳委員思瑤：就專業，我們就勇敢講專業的話，這個表格我已經講了N次，不管是舊制或新制，憲法法庭所收的案件九成五、九成八都是人民的聲請案，藍白所幻想的也就是提案的翁曉玲委員一直在說的極端案例，3位、4位大法官就會來做出憲判，這種極端案例並不存在。我以111年新制到現在宣判的48案裡頭，37個案子由15名大法官全員參與評議，10個案子因為有迴避的機制，部分大法官迴避了，但是參與審議大於10位的還有10個案子。","換言之，新制上路至今的48案當中，只有1個案子的評議少於10位，是9位，為什麼？因為大法官基於迴避的原則，副秘，我的整理是正確的吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以並沒有所謂3位、4位大法官就會來決定憲法法庭解釋的案例，不存在嘛？目前不存在嘛？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：到目前為止沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：唯一會存在的狀況就是在野黨的委員遲遲不通過、不審議大法官的人事案，雖然有延宕再延宕，但還好立法院已經排定了12月24號，終於要行使我們大法官的同意權，但是我們呼籲在野黨的委員要理性審查，一旦不理性的審查而來拒絕行使或者是行使不同意，我們都尊重，但是可能會癱瘓憲法法庭的前提就是在人事同意權的行使過程當中，大法官沒有辦法補足。","我這裡也替大家整理出來，同意權延宕已經是前所未見，從2003年大法官同意權改由立法院來行使之後，只有2007年陳水扁執政的時候，有4位大法官提名，被國民黨多數否決，我們予以尊重，這是國會審查之後，予以否決，但是從來沒有發生延宕、阻卻、拒審大法官人事同意權的案例，是不是？副秘。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：依照委員的整理，確實是如此。"],["吳委員思瑤：我希望我整理的這個表格最下方能夠讓我們行使同意權，然後大法官的就任時間能夠填上，否則它持續是問號，大法官的人事同意權持續不行使或者是行使不同意，前提用不理性的方式來對待進行政治的報復，癱瘓了司法院，這是史上從來沒有發生過的惡例。我希望我這個表格最下方的，這4個大大的問號能夠不再是問號，立法委員也要善盡我們的憲法忠誠義務。","回到我第三個主題，就是為我們的司法人員減壓，有治標也有治本的，我有五大主張，關於治標的部分，因為時間有限，我肯定一下臺北地院王院長，這是臺北地院的公告，EAP心理健康關懷方案本來僅限法官人員，後來在我質詢之後，你們擴及所有地院員工，請你們去徹查所有的地院、高院是不是都有讓EAP一視同仁，大家都可以受惠，好嗎？","我可以請臺中地院的邱院長嗎？"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：有請邱院長。"],["吳委員思瑤：在您行進的過程中，我就直接說，我非常肯定臺中地院，你們現在應該還有這個制度吧？讓我們的同仁可以有半天公假，4個小時的時間就近去國美館看看藝術，現在這個制度還有嗎？"],["邱院長志平：有。"],["吳委員思瑤：其他地院有這樣學習的經驗嗎？就您所知。"],["邱院長志平：應該也是有類似的。"],["吳委員思瑤：臺北地院有沒有去北美館？去故宮、去兩廳院？不過兩廳院沒有下午的場。"],["王院長梅英：跟委員報告，像我們今年度就有跟TSO合作，直接把樂團請進來到法院，同仁們也不用出去了，直接在法院。"],["吳委員思瑤：不要、不要，換個地方，場所精神很重要，你把TSO搬來，你把朱宗慶請來，也還是在法院，大家的壓力不會緩解。"],["王院長梅英：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：文化親近這個assessment是要進入那個文化場域，你的心才會沈澱下來，就像我每天在立法院政治攻防，我上禮拜五晚上終於有時間到北藝中心去看了簡珮如的舞蹈，我整個心open了，我今天又可以很正能量地來面對立法院這些不合理的政治攻防，場所精神是重要的，未來的副秘書長，我覺得這是一個非常健康的、好的方式，不管是文化的或者是運動類的活動，休閒的活動，帶頭來做吧，好嗎？"],["王院長梅英：好，謝謝委員勉勵。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，這都是治標。另外，心理假可以去研議一下，現在公務部門人事總處也要增加對於公部門心理調適假的增訂，不是為了放假，而是為了讓每一個請身心調適假的司法人員能夠被人事體系追蹤管考，他可能承擔了心靈上的一些困難，需要我們及時來介入。剛剛有小抄遞上來了，副秘書長你有什麼要回答嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為這個心理假的主管是人事行政總處、銓敘部，如果他們有這樣的相關規定，我們司法院當然樂觀其成。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是除了放假以外，剛才委員所垂詢的心理健康方案，我們現在已經推動全國，就我們的統計，現在法官以外的同仁去請求心理健康照護的其實已經有相當的量。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們預算一次2,500，一年有8次，好好讓這個福利……這也不能叫福利，是提供必要的幫助，讓需要的人能夠受惠。","我最後的時間來談治本的部分，我想你們的人員要補齊，中央政府機關總員額法不是要提出修法，希望放寬第三類人員，也就是司法人員的上限，現在法案到哪裡了？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們在跟行政院討論，因為主管這個法案是人事總處，所以我們跟他們說明，請求得到支持，因為這個修法必須由他們提出來，誠如委員所垂詢的，目前我們還在溝通當中，所有有效率的程序我們都在做，目前總員額的預算只剩下兩百九十幾個。"],["吳委員思瑤：至少要先補吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：至少要先讓我們能夠解放一下，我們才有辦法去做後續的這些……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒錯。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：不然會寸步難行。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，未來的工作，王副秘要持續，針對中央政府總員額法，立法院至少民進黨團、執政黨團我們一定全力支持，這是根本性的來協助人力問題，協助大家減壓。","我占用了比較多時間，很抱歉，很高興認識大家，我會持續跟著大家一起學習，讓我們的司法更好，謝謝主席，謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝黃副秘，謝謝王院長。","接下來有請陳委員培瑜發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強"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案件情節繁雜或需高度專業知識非經長久時日顯然完成審判者。」請問副秘書長為什麼要加上這一款?為什麼國民法官法要避免這種情節繁雜要長久時日?"},{"start":213.223,"end":230.874,"text":"委員報告齁,因為那個國民,一般的國民參與的這些案件齁,第一個,他只能在很……比如說在兩週內要讓國民法官完成。對對對,那他沒有辦法像一般的法官這樣,可以一年兩年,一年兩年再審判子。"},{"start":231.454,"end":257.871,"text":"所以根據這樣子,去年根據複雜條款裁定不行使國民參審審判的有28件申請,其中複雜案件13件,那麼准以15件,複雜案件6件,差不多複雜案件有一半是准以不交由國民法官參與嘛,對不對?好,那請問一下複雜性條款,有沒有不複雜的貪污案?剛剛講到我們這個重大貪污案適用國民法官法,但是有沒有不複雜的貪污案?"},{"start":259.673,"end":260.474,"text":"最近大家最熱門的"},{"start":276.684,"end":289.856,"text":"金華城案,你看看,單單看這個人物關係跟金流圖啊,你看有多少的前市長、前市議員、企業家被告。事案行為至少從4年前開始,還有疑似匯款流入基金會、黨部及政治先進專戶,這個案子複複複雜。"},{"start":293.615,"end":316.157,"text":"和委員報告,當然有相當的這些複雜度,但是跟委員報告,也不是說有複雜法官那個申請說不行國民審判,法官就會准,法官就只要是…沒錯,好,那麼看一下這個是還在進行中的,我們看已經針截了,重大貪官適用國民法官法會有什麼問題?貪官的特質,涉案人數眾多,金流複雜,被告不認罪,你看,禪送12年,南投前縣長啊,"},{"start":317.358,"end":325.464,"text":"李朝卿收回扣111件罪全部定案累計刑期達超過400年。」李朝卿案恐怕我們想國民法官沒辦法銷售啊。"},{"start":352.682,"end":371.038,"text":"財刑國民法案制度就是要集中審理,有些時候會拖久,就是因為集中審理沒有辦法落實貫徹,那這也是國民法案的製度。我們來看一下還有什麼其他的考量,來下一頁。遇到有社會矚目的案件,如何維持國民法案的公正性?國民法案第14條。"},{"start":372.419,"end":377.3,"text":"包括總統、副總統、各級機關首長、政務人員、民意代表、政黨黨務工作人員。國民法第15條選任國民法官法,這些人不能參與,有具體事證足認其執行職務,有難其公正之語。小草集結北檢挺科這些人會不會落入到第15條第9款的項目當中呢?"},{"start":402.093,"end":412.837,"text":"如果我們這重大的社會矚目案件有這些人那你就說重大貪污看複雜程度不見得那你在選任國民法官的時候這些人你怎麼去篩選出來"},{"start":416.5,"end":445.279,"text":"委員報告喔,這個是不是符合這個去選任不適合擔任國民法官,其實要有具體的事證,而且在選任程序裡面,雙方都會去表示意見,那今天被告這邊表示意見,檢察官那一邊他可能會表示不適合這個意見,所以不見得...所以說我們現在談到了當15年擴大包括貪污案件要納入的時候,除了案件複雜之外,社會矚目的你在選任國民法官的時候,不只因為案件複雜,連選任的人員都要特別謹慎,對不對?"},{"start":446.6,"end":454.252,"text":"民嘴、網路、KOL、支持者,這些可以當任國民法官嗎?如果有足夠的事政,你們就可能要把他排除喔,是不是這樣?"},{"start":456.929,"end":483.838,"text":"在選任的程序裡面兩兆就會去表示意見那這一邊可能就認為說沒有達到那你要知道齁那這個時候兩邊裸裸有沒有要挑他就開始要求調錄影帶去北檢前面調北檢那時候的錄影帶看看哪些人曾經在裡面參與的是不是這樣子就看到我們在好萊塢電影上他們選任陪審團的時候啊就開始派出大量的人力去救可能被選出來當國民法官的他的過去的參與"},{"start":484.938,"end":497.288,"text":"是否有這種事證?這是一個龐大的工程,這個事情誰來把關?誰來把關?如果是在北院的話,是誰來把關?如果這個案子國審法,中華北院是誰來把關國民法官的選任?請王院長提供一下見解,因為未來你要擔任這個職務。"},{"start":513.799,"end":541.607,"text":"這個依法是由國民法官庭的審判長。國民法官庭的審判長嘛,所以很重要嘛。各位我們各個地院的院長喔,這個複雜度大約是好,往下一頁,來我們看一下。那其實我們更關心的不是這個,不是主卻,是要怎麼提升人民參與審判來強化司法信任度。我們1、2年應到的候選法官2352位,10到呢,不到一半。那1、1、3年的比率呢,到目前有沒有統計?"},{"start":544.415,"end":556.285,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":559.298,"end":562.683,"text":"議員最高的是專業人士、軍公教跟學生,議員最低是家管、退休、無業跟勞力人員。為什麼會這樣子呢?有這樣的觀點嗎?我們再往下看。"},{"start":577.202,"end":590.716,"text":"其實營養參與委員的呢,他這裡的說法是說,因為可能學歷低者他比較擔心對日常生活及生計造成影響。像這些勞力人員啊、兼職人員啊,最怕這一點。那請問候選的法官僱主知道應該以公價併合領日費嗎?你們有去調查嗎?"},{"start":593.905,"end":620.087,"text":"你覺得是原因嗎?但影響生活經濟。我們這部分應該都有做相關的通知跟宣導,應該會知道。那未來的副部長要強化,要請司法院這邊強化各院的宣導。但是是不是真的是考慮說因為經濟生活,我們再往下看。很奇怪耶,從年齡來看,年齡越高,到場率越低啊。尤其是六、七十歲以上的到場率低於平均。這些人不都已經退休了嗎?"},{"start":622.097,"end":651.05,"text":"為什麼還會擔心他的經濟生活呢?是什麼原因造成年紀較長者他擔心去擔任國民法官呢?你們要去深入探究原因,可以嗎?這一點我特別提出來,再往下看所以候選的國民法官魏道廷將開法你看我這裡給你看教召我們當兵教召魏豹島將有刑事責任但是你們的國民法官法以橋頭地院來講沒有代名魏道廷可依法具體哇這好嚴重啊"},{"start":652.425,"end":673.181,"text":"市務上是不是有沒有提醒?有沒有提醒?沒有啊,這個傳票上面沒有載明啊,是不好載明還是怎麼樣?要你去當國民法官,不來,把你拘來,有這樣的事情嗎?民眾會不會覺得法情感上難以接受?要我去當法官不去,你還要把我抓出去?"},{"start":674.002,"end":697.017,"text":"提醒都有提醒啦但是目前沒有好啦我也沒有說你們一定要載名啦也不是說載名就比較好啦但是這個是一個很重要的觀念啦或許你們覺得載名之後會讓民眾深深恐懼或有錯誤的誤解其實當國民法院是個義務但是你用到具體可能民眾會嚇一跳是不是這樣子我了解你們要去體會但是這個要加強怎麼辦讓徐先生好不好好先往下下一題"},{"start":700.259,"end":704.101,"text":"審判的意願,並且嚴格國民法官案件的轉軌及拒絕標準。」最後陳董事長請回王蜂蜜跟王院長還有我們屏東地院的李院長不用上來交接一下"},{"start":723.368,"end":752.648,"text":"護士長,你去過屏東地院看過,我們屏東地院有一個司法園區的專案,是不是要推動嗎?我們希望未來的王院長接著之後要持續推動,因為這個案子很重要,要跟法務部、要跟國產署、要跟國土署都要去做共同協商。是不是請兩位共同承諾繼續推動,包括幫我們的屏東地院,李院長很積極,我們的地檢的陳檢察長也很積極,需要上面司法院跟法務部共同推動,可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":754.389,"end":756.89,"text":"行政院一律新建的辦公廳設,沒有植物宿舍,都沒有了,只有哪裡?"},{"start":775.501,"end":794.696,"text":"只有新蓋的屏東榮總有植物宿舍你知道什麼原因嗎因為蘇院長特別破例給這些辛苦的醫護人員要輪班所以讓他們在新建的廳舍裡面有植物宿舍未來如果說司法園區能夠成立它的地占地面積等等各方面條件很好未必要在同一個廳舍裡面在附近"},{"start":795.396,"end":798.018,"text":"審理法草案案件事件審理法草案案件事件"},{"start":822.165,"end":829.137,"text":"法官生人愉快。」那也拜託王院長好不好接下燙手山魚世代交替啊台灣隊加油我們司法加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":642,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時36分）謝謝。主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、在場的媒體女士先生。今天喜氣洋洋，不只臺灣隊奪冠，大家開心，我想臺灣隊世代交替，有一半球員是第一次參加國際賽，我們司法體系也世代交替，所以有請我們的黃副秘書長，準備要交替了。"],["主席：請黃副秘。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也請我們臺北地院的王院長，要接班了……"],["主席：請王院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：趕快來見習一下，也請法扶的陳董事長。"],["主席：請陳董事長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。副秘好、陳董事長好、王院長好。今天請陳董事長上來，就知道我要談國民法官國審案，我的標題很清楚，國審案將擴大納入貪污等案，要強化國民的參與率及拒卻標準。我們來看一下，請教黃副秘，國民法官上路兩年，115年案由將擴大，本來在去年我們新收108件、未結83件，好像比前兩年的總數加起來還要多，根據國民法官法第五條第一項，它是兩個要件嘛！一個是故意犯罪因而發生死亡結果者，對不對？這已經實施了，過去這幾年就是這樣，未來在115年所犯最輕本刑為十年以上有期徒刑之罪，請問這些罪包含哪些？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這部分目前可能要統計，當然案件量……"],["鍾委員佳濱：包含哪些罪名？譬如說，包括普通刑法……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個大概在那個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：內容有嘛？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：重大貪污會有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，範圍包括強制性交、傷害、妨害幼童、強盜擄人勒贖、兒少性剝削、人口販運、懲治走私、國家情報、妨害國家安全以及貪污治罪條例，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對、對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：112年的強盜結合加擄人勒贖的結合罪11人，但是重大貪污有15人，是不是這樣子？但是有沒有評估未來總收案量會成長多少，法院人力充不充足？有沒有評估過？你們在115年要開始擴大。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們刑事廳都持續在關注這部分，預計會增加兩百八十幾個人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說115年開始會有兩百？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對、對，我們評估……"],["鍾委員佳濱：會超過兩百件？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是、是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳董事長在後面，他也是很關心，我們知道國民法官法一定是由法扶，它是強制辯護嘛！就符合申請。我們來看下一頁，請問重大貪污案件適用國民法官法嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：適用，就是假設……"],["鍾委員佳濱：適用？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：譬如說違背職務收賄罪就最輕本刑十年以上，但是我們國民法官法第六條第一項提到有幾種情況，其中案件情節繁雜或需高度專業知識，非經長久時日顯難完成審判。請問副秘書長，為什麼要加上這一款？為什麼國民法官法要避免這種情節繁雜、要長久時日？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為一般國民參與的這些案件，第一個，他只能在集中的時間內審理……"],["鍾委員佳濱：比如說在兩週內要讓國民法官完成？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對、對，他沒有辦法像一般的法官這樣，可以一年、兩年在審理案子，所以說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以根據這樣子，去年根據複雜條款，裁定不行使國民參審審判的有28件聲請，其中複雜案件13件；准許15件，複雜案件6件；差不多複雜案件有一半是准許不交由國民法官參與，對不對？好，請問一下複雜性條款，有沒有不複雜的貪污案？剛剛講到重大貪污案適用國民法官法，但是有沒有不複雜的貪污案？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果以我們以前的經驗，就是承認收賄，然後也交出來，像這一些的案件，但是說實話，這種例子比較不是那麼多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們就講最近大家最熱門的京華城案，你看看，單單看這個人物關係跟金流圖，你看有多少的前市長、前市議員、企業家被列被告，涉案行為至少從4年前開始，還有疑似匯款流入基金會、黨部及政治獻金專戶，這個案子複不複雜？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然有相當的複雜度，但是跟委員報告，也不是說有複雜，聲請說不行國民審判法官就會准，法官還是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，沒錯，這個是還在進行中的，我們看已經偵結的，重大貪污案適用國民法官法會有什麼問題？貪污案的特質：涉案人數眾多、金流複雜、被告不認罪，你看纏訟12年，南投前縣長李朝卿收回扣111罪全部定讞，累計刑期超過400年，副秘書長，你覺得這個案子假如後年用國審法來審有可能嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為具體的案情，我畢竟……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個案子已經很明確了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果說他構成的罪名是最輕10年以上，他假設聲請的話，可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：以李朝卿案，恐怕國民法官沒辦法消受啊！纏訟12年欸！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為採行國民法官制度就是要集中審理，有些時候會拖久就是因為集中審理沒有辦法落實貫徹，這也是國民法官法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：至於說它是不是真的複雜到不適合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下還有什麼其他的考量，遇到有社會矚目的案件，如何維持國民法官的公正性，國民法官法第十四條包括什麼？總統、副總統這些人，各級的機關首長、政務人員、民意代表，還有政黨的黨務工作人員，我們來看一下，國民法第十五條，它說選任國民法官，這些人不能參與：有具體事證足認其執行職務有難期公正之虞。我們來看一下，小草集結北檢挺柯，這些人會不會落入到第十五條第九款的項目當中呢？如果我們在重大的社會矚目案件有這些人，你又說重大貪污看複雜程度，不見得，那你在選任國民法官的時候，這些人你怎麼去篩選出來？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，是不是符合去選任或不適合擔任國民法官其實要有具體的事證，而且在選任程序裡面，雙方都會去表示意見，今天被告這邊表示意見，檢察官那一邊可能會表示不同的意見，所以不見得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以我們現在談到了當115年擴大，包括貪污案件要納入的時候，除了案件複雜之外，社會矚目的，你在選任國民法官的時候，不只因為案件複雜，連選任的人員都要特別謹慎，對不對？名嘴啦、網路KOL、支持者，這些可以擔任國民法官嗎？如果有足夠事證，你們就可能要把他排除喔！是不是這樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想這部分在選任的程序裡面兩造就會去表示意見……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這邊要，這邊可能就認為說沒有達到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你要知道，這個時候兩邊有沒有要挑，他就開始要求調錄影帶，去北檢前面調北檢那時候的錄影帶，看看哪些人曾經在裡面參與的，是不是這樣子？就會看到我們在好萊塢電影上，他們選任陪審團的時候，就開始派出大量的人力去就可能被選出來當國民法官的，查他過去的參與，有沒有這種事證，是不是這樣？這是個龐大的工程，這個事情誰來把關？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想選任的程序本身就有一些很嚴密的規範……"],["鍾委員佳濱：誰來把關？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：今天假設他也有不符合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果是在北院的話，是誰來把關？如果這個案子國審法送到北院，誰來把關國民法官的選任？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：審判長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請王院長提供一下見解，因為未來你要擔任這個職務。"],["王院長梅英：這個依法是由國民法官庭的審判長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國民法官庭的審判長。"],["王院長梅英：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以很重要嘛！各位，我們各個地院的院長，這個複雜度大家去思考。下一頁我們看一下，其實我們更關心的不是這個，不是阻卻，是要怎麼提升人民參與審判來強化司法信任度。我們112年應到的候選法官2,352位，實到不到一半，113年的比率到目前有沒有統計？也是不到一半吧！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：45%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你看比去年還低啊！你後面還有一個多月的時間，什麼原因造成的？有沒有調查過？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前應該我們國民法官……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們去年的成效評估我調出來了，這句話我是覺得不是那麼認可，說學歷越低，意願越低，意願最高的是專業人士、軍公教跟學生，意願最低的是家管、退休無業跟勞力人員，為什麼會這樣子呢？有這樣的關聯嗎？我們再往下看。其實影響參與意願的，這裡的說法是說因為可能學歷低者，他比較擔心對日常生活及生計造成影響，像這些勞力人員、兼職人員最怕這一點，請問候選法官、雇主知道應該給予公假並可領日費嗎？你們有去調查嗎？你覺得是這個原因嗎？擔心影響生活經濟。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們這部分應該都有做相關的通知跟宣導，應該會知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那未來副秘書長要請司法院這邊強化各院的宣導，但是是不是真的是因為經濟生活？我們再往下看，很奇怪，從年齡來看，年齡越高，到場率越低，尤其是六、七十歲以上的到場率低於平均，這些人不都已經退休了嗎？為什麼還會擔心他的經濟生活呢？是什麼原因造成年紀較長者擔心去擔任國民法官呢？你們要去深入探究原因可以嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可以，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這點我特別提出來。所以候選的國民法官未到庭將開罰，我再給你看，當兵教召未報到將有刑事責任，但是你們的國民法官法，以橋頭地院來講，沒有載明未到庭可依法拘提，這好嚴重啊！實務上有沒有提醒？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們都有提醒，法規也有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啊！傳票上面沒有載明啊！是不好載明還是怎麼樣？要你去當國民法官，不來，把你拘來，有這樣的事情嗎？民眾會不會覺得法情感上難以接受，要我去當法官不去，你還要把我抓去？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們提醒都有提醒啦，但是目前沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！我也沒有說你們一定要載明啦，也不是說載明就比較好啦，但是這個是一個很重要的觀念，或許你們覺得載明會讓民眾心生恐懼或有錯誤的誤解，其實當國民法官是個義務，但是你用到拘提，可能民眾會嚇一跳，是不是這樣子？我了解你們要去體會，但是這個要加強，讓他們宣導好不好？再往下看下一頁，所以我的建議就是在未來預算執行當中強化人民參與審判的意願，並且嚴格國民法官案件的轉軌及拒卻標準，好不好？","最後，陳董請回，請黃副秘跟王院長，還有我要點一下我們屏東地院的李院長，不用上來，交接一下，副秘書長，你去屏東地院看過，我們屏東地院有一個司法園區的專案要推動嘛！我們希望未來的王院長接了之後要持續推動，因為這個案子很重要，要跟法務部、要跟國產署、要跟國土署都要去做共同協商，是不是請兩位共同承諾繼續推動，包括把我們的屏東地院，李院長很積極，地檢的陳檢察長也很積極，需要上面司法院跟法務部共同推動，可以承諾嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們一定會做好這部分的交接。"],["鍾委員佳濱：王院長有沒有交接到？"],["王院長梅英：只要是對我們司法環境有助益，這我們一定會大力去做的，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時候我們院長大力爭取說希望要有職務宿舍，目前全臺灣行政院新建的辦公廳舍一律沒有職務宿舍，都沒有了，只有哪裡？只有新蓋的屏東榮總有職務宿舍，你知道什麼原因嗎？因為蘇院長特別破例給這些辛苦的醫護人員要輪班，所以讓他們在新建的廳舍裡面有職務宿舍。未來如果司法園區能夠成立，它的占地面積等等各方面條件很好，未必要在同一個廳舍裡面，在附近就可以有職務宿舍，這一點請務必在你們未來的屏東，還有包括未來陸續更新的司法園區，一定要把我們司法人員的需求放進去，才能讓他們流動率降低，你不是說過屏東的流動率很大，是不是？如果不安定的話，我們這些比較偏遠的院留不住人，會對我們民眾的司法品質受到影響，好不好？拜託黃副秘書長，也祝你法官升任愉快，也拜託王院長好不好？接下燙手山芋，世代交替，臺灣隊加油、我們司法加油，謝謝。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱召委。","接下來有請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","我們請下一位質詢是吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},{"id":"157426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c74f5cd79647449e0ccd385048732c8e563258f3eba717d081ee3cda55e1e93cba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:17:25 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案 。"},{"start":45.638,"end":50.119,"text":"審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請"},{"start":66.408,"end":69.929,"text":"司法院長期以來也有這個問題以前我自己在檢方的時候其實幾乎沒有假日"},{"start":84.634,"end":99.887,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第16次全體委員會第16次審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第16次審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第16次審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第16次審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":108.755,"end":134.576,"text":"公務員給外界的感覺應該是一個鐵飯碗,一個很好過日子的一個工作,可以一路穩定做到退休,但是這接年越來越嚴重的就是工作量太大,然後壓力太大,很多人都受不了,所以上半年"},{"start":135.636,"end":136.196,"text":"公務員希望能一體適用治安法"},{"start":162.4,"end":186.378,"text":"勞動部對於勞工有一個職安法來保護他們,而且這個職安法也不停地在修正,然後來對於勞工更加的保障,但是對公務員的部分因為不適用,所以公務員的部分這幾年其實很多人都覺得保障是不足的,雖然公務員有公務員自己適用的法規,但是他的保障遠遠不及於那個職安法,所以這個部分"},{"start":187.761,"end":189.103,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案案。"},{"start":200.599,"end":223.963,"text":"結果後來找了一個新的法官助理去配合那個法官結果那個新的助理也馬上就不幹了那結果第一院還是請原來的助理再回過頭去再繼續支援原來的那位法官其實這個對人的傷害很大那我想請教一下複密你知不支持公務員也要一定納入這個治安法去保障"},{"start":225.956,"end":246.912,"text":"公務委員報告當然稱呼委員所講我們目前就這個公務員的這個保護的部分是有相關的這些規定至於說這些規定不如治安法說不如治安法我們覺得這個可能有些討論的這些空間等一下這一部分也許我們人事處長可以去做回應你支持嗎如果你的話你支持嗎"},{"start":251.764,"end":253.205,"text":"公務員保障法公務員保障法"},{"start":268.19,"end":269.831,"text":"公務員及非公務員及非公務員公務員及非公務員公務員及非公務員公務員及非公務員"},{"start":284.818,"end":304.427,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律"},{"start":312.65,"end":337.842,"text":"對司法反而是傷害,對人民對於司法絕對不會有信任度。」那我提一個東西啊就是說因為106年的時候施改國是會議的時候其實當時就有討論到要促進司法的效率然後減輕司法人員的工作量但是你看這段時間來工作量是越來越誇張啊我跟你講我回過頭去看我記得我看到的一個數據是106109年到"},{"start":342.237,"end":342.42,"text":"今年"},{"start":344.066,"end":372.679,"text":"檢方的我那個拿桃檢的那個數據他是多了好像是七八七八才什麼的的那個那個那個很多分案量現在破百也是很平常的事情所以其實這個這個等於是用量用值量去衝垮了值啊這都是我們不樂見的齁再加上說這段時間離職率很高院檢都一樣離職率超高那我有遇到一些他們離職了他就我問他說你為什麼要走"},{"start":373.579,"end":386.279,"text":"現在大家都離職你反而不一定當律師好做他就跟我說沒有賺到錢至少賺到健康跟人生啦那這樣反而回過頭去推論其實司法的工作量就是太多了齁"},{"start":388.362,"end":411.825,"text":"其實上個會期我有辦一個公聽會當時我們有請那個民庭的周佩琪法官還有那個紀凱峰的前法官來提到提到就是說是不是我們有一些形式化的那個書類調查證據的程序書證調查的程序或是二審要不要完全複審這些東西當時都是他們所提出來希望能夠改善的"},{"start":412.365,"end":424.876,"text":"公聽會議結束後,請行政廳、民事廳一起討論,看有什麼樣可以簡化整個程序。但是在這個會期所提出來的立法計畫,我卻沒有看到制度的改善內容。"},{"start":428.874,"end":457.511,"text":"其實我們的剛才委員所提的這幾點嚴格上來講其實並沒有涉及到修法的問題啦那麼在現行的這個法律上面看如何去操作只是說確實第一個那麼裁判書的這個製作我們也都在努力在做簡化那當然當然我們也不斷的跟上級審去講說對下級審的這個判決的裁判的這個審查是不是能夠能夠再去"},{"start":458.783,"end":466.029,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案 案件和財務行政事件審理法草案 案件和財務行政事件審理法草案 案件和財務行政事件審理法草案 案件和財務行政事件審理法草案 案件和財務行政事件審理法草案 案件和財務行政事件審理法草案 案件和財務行政事件審理法草案 案件和財務行政事件"},{"start":487.765,"end":494.829,"text":"實務行政事件審理法草案案案 案件及審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案 案件及審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案 案件及審查司法院函送財團法律審議"},{"start":511.437,"end":538.307,"text":"負審要不要改為續審制?交互結婚要不要一完再完?這個都是我們提到的。那我們上次公聽會完之後我收到非常多法官、假官寫email過來我這邊公務信箱跟我們提供很多想法而且拜託我們一定要繼續往這邊處理因為沒有人想要累死在辦公室啊那我想說你馬上也要去當法官了嘛那接下來你也要面對過勞的問題了所以希望說能夠多給司法院一些建議啦"},{"start":539.187,"end":540.408,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案案案"},{"start":567.713,"end":584.006,"text":"法律沒有保障到公務員的輪班跟值班的健康權。這個大法官的這個釋字出來以後,被公務員罵翻了。對,沒有錯嘛,你當初法律沒有弄清楚,結果搞到最後變成什麼?"},{"start":585.014,"end":602.183,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":608.186,"end":609.347,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案案"},{"start":637.619,"end":638.281,"text":"審查司法院審理法草案案"},{"start":644.281,"end":669.959,"text":"否則啊這次勞動部的狀況也一樣啊勞動部那個無薪的員工他也是一樣一直在做功德一大早去加班四五點去加班做到晚上八九點但是你看他的加班的時數的登記都是很短因為不能夠超過嘛大法官會罵人啊結果到最後大家就做功德自願留在辦公室加班會造成這個問題所以啊這絕對不會有什麼友善司法啦"},{"start":670.499,"end":691.754,"text":"大法官這次就是利益良善,就是被人家罵這四個字利益良善,這真的不行這樣,所以還是一樣從制度尤其是訴訟制度要去變更,書類的製作簡化是一個非常重要的點沒有錯,但是訴訟制度的變更也是非常的重要,就我剛剛說的二審你不改成續審制的話,"},{"start":693.769,"end":704.189,"text":"再多的法官都沒有用那檢方也是如果還是搞像這樣的程序再多的檢察官也都補不完再多的助理再多的事務官都永遠都沒有用"},{"start":705.476,"end":710.357,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分。」"},{"start":726.981,"end":745.34,"text":"我先點一個,因為你們司法院現在對於那個法扶基金會的那個捐款一年比一年高,是不是真的應該跟法扶基金會去討論一下範圍會不會過廣?這是我以前在15屆的時候就曾經想過了,是不是範圍過廣?那排付條款是不是要"},{"start":747.018,"end":765.053,"text":"不能所有的族群都毫無目的地不徘徊。」是不是有這個,這個大概是一個小建議,建議你們要思考一下,否則司法院的預算越來越多就是去法扶基金會,然後還是解決不了司法不被信任的問題。好,那最後我提一個東西,因為"},{"start":766.434,"end":795.106,"text":"我思考到那個被害人訴訟參與制度,那這個也是跟那個林育雄教授也有聊過,其實我們要去思考這個被害人訴訟參與這個制度,我們到底要怎麼樣去保障,尤其是被害人家屬,他有沒有辦法在法庭上面有足夠的聲量去告訴法官他的想法,否則現在整個訴訟的程序的走法,以刑事訴訟來說好了,全部是偏重保障被告,但是你從修復式司法的角度或是從被害人"},{"start":795.666,"end":802.269,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":826.138,"end":829.54,"text":"我會提出對於重罪的被害人一些身體調查證據或詢問被告、證人鑑定人或獨立上訴權"},{"start":837.927,"end":839.268,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":863.746,"end":869.531,"text":"法官經常保障被告的權益。」最後一個點,這是憲判制有關死刑的部分,他有提到一個什麼是最嚴重的犯罪。"},{"start":882.902,"end":897.943,"text":"主文第10段提到這37位死刑犯如果認為自己是並非犯罪嚴重這時候他可以是申請非常上訴那當然總長同不同意或最高法院同不同意"},{"start":898.524,"end":904.308,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":924.341,"end":934.164,"text":"大法官在判決裡面還特別交代說他這個只是舉例說明並不是限於只有這幾種判斷標準但是呢我們這次"},{"start":939.423,"end":959.851,"text":"最高法院駁回的理由竟然是認為說不是預謀殺人就不算是最嚴重。他等於是只有隨便抓裡面一個東西出來就這樣認定,而不是全方面的去認定。那我想請問一下富密,你覺得拿狼頭在那邊找人要敲他的頭,這不算是預謀嗎?"},{"start":962.998,"end":989.82,"text":"委員報告那那個他的預謀應該是講說事先就有一個犯罪這個計畫那當然當然這個是故意那但是至於說預謀他個案的這個認定那我們還是尊重獨立審判所以我們的預謀就是限縮在我必須要一個縝密的計畫要對誰幹什麼事要取得什麼樣的結果這才叫預謀是這一個案子的審判的這個認知"},{"start":992.117,"end":1009.984,"text":"法官獨立審判所以我也不為難你但是我必須點出這個點就是大法官他在判決裡面所提到的這三個動機手段跟結果其他有說了他這個只是舉例而已並不是限縮所以我希望全國的法官不要弄錯這個點"},{"start":1011.545,"end":1026.061,"text":"我沒有違背大法官的判決,大法官自己就這樣寫,他在第10段最後面他就寫緊繫歷史而非列舉,所以他不是限縮喔,請法官不要誤解了大法官的想法。"},{"start":1027.233,"end":1031.155,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案 案件審理法草案案 案件審理法草案案 案件審理法草案案"},{"start":1054.665,"end":1058.986,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":1084.153,"end":1085.155,"text":"審查司法院審理法草案案 案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時17分）謝謝主席，我們麻煩黃副秘、周廳長、李廳長，還有陳美彤處長。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄代）：被邀請的請上台好不好？你一次念那麼多，我也不知道你在念誰，有聽到的自己就先上來。"],["吳委員宗憲：民刑兩廳的廳長，還有人事處處長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：副秘早安，副秘您現在馬上要調動。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那個……"],["吳委員宗憲：恭喜、恭喜。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：副秘你要去哪？你怎麼沒有講。"],["吳委員宗憲：時間停止一下好了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：回歸審判。"],["吳委員宗憲：對啊，這不錯啊！很好的，謝謝。","那我先提一個東西，就是因為最近大家一直在吵有關工作壓力大的問題，司法院一直長期以來也有這個問題，以前我自己在檢方的時候其實幾乎沒有假日，六、日至少有1天或2天都要去加班，平常做到晚上十一、十二點也很平常，二、三點在寫書類也是蠻常遇到的事，其實對於司法人員來說，工作量過重已經是一個問題。","我想到4月的時候士院有一個法官輕生，當然他背後也有其他的問題，但是工作量大也是其中一個很重要的影響。今年上半年已經有8位警察輕生，所以本來公務員給外界的感覺應該是一個鐵飯碗，一個很好過日子的工作，可以一路穩定做到退休，但是這些年越來越嚴重的就是工作量太大、壓力太大，很多人都受不了。所以上半年我這邊念幾個團體，包括書記官工作權益促進會、公務革新力量聯盟、消防員工作權益促進會、台灣公務革新力量聯盟、台灣警察工作權益推動會，其實他們都有一個希望，就是希望公務員能夠一體適用職安法，他們一直有這個要求，其實勞動部對於勞工有一個職安法來保護他們，而且這個職安法也不停的修正來對於勞工更加的保障，但是因為對公務員不適用嘛，所以公務員的部分這幾年很多人都覺得保障是不足的，雖然公務員有公務員自己適用的法規，但是它的保障遠遠不及於職安法，所以這個部分待會想要請教一下你們的想法。","我再回過頭去看台南地院之前不是有發生一個法官助理被霸淩的事情，而且他企圖要自殺，後來找了一個新的法官助理去配合那個法官，那個新的助理也馬上就不幹了，結果地院還是請原來的助理再回過頭去繼續支援原來的那位法官，其實這對人的傷害很大。我想請教一下副秘，你支不支持公務員也要一併納入職安法保障？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，誠如委員所講，目前就公務員的保護部分是有相關規定，至於這些規定不如職安法，我們覺得可能有些討論空間，等一下這部分也許我們的人事處長可以做回應。"],["吳委員宗憲：你支持嗎？如果是你的話，你支持嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為勞工用的是職安法，公務員當然是用公務人員保障法，這部分用的法規根據是不一樣的，至於要不要納入，可能要整體去檢討公務人員保障法的修正，但這部分可能也不是司法院所主管。"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣等於沒有回答，但是我這邊要提醒一下，其實安全和危險、工作長時間、壓力、健康的傷害根本沒有分公務員和非公務員，你今天對勞工的保障包山包海，但對於公務員的保障卻好像狀況不是那麼好，現在的公務員跟30年前的公務員也不一樣，民眾洽公，你敢跟他大小聲嗎？這在30年前比比皆是，但現在大家都是認認真真地把工作做好，變成壓力更大的反而是公務員。尤其是司法人員，我覺得司法如果一直這樣過勞下去，其實對司法反而是傷害，人民對於司法絕對不會有信任度。我提一個東西，其實106年司改國是會議的時候就有討論到要促進司法效率，減輕司法人員的工作量，但是你看這段時間以來，工作量是越來越誇張，我跟你講我回過頭去看，我記得我看到的數據是109年到今年桃檢的數據，好像多了七、八成的分案量，現在破百也是很平常的事情，所以這個等於是用量去沖垮了質，這都是我們不樂見的。再加上這段時間離職率很高，院檢都一樣，離職率超高，我有遇到一些離職的人，我問他們為什麼要走，現在大家都離職了，當律師反而不一定好做，他就跟我說沒有賺到錢，至少賺到健康跟人生，這樣回過頭去推論，其實司法的工作量就是太多了。","其實上個會期我有辦一個公聽會，當時我們有請民庭的周珮琦法官，還有紀凱峰前法官，他們提到有一些型式化的書證調查程序或是二審要不要完全覆審，這些東西都是當時他們所提出來希望能夠改善的，公聽會完之後我也有請刑事廳、民事廳都來，大家一起討論看看有什麼樣的方向可以簡化整個程序，但是在這個會期所提出來的立法計畫，我卻沒有看到制度的改善內容。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，剛才委員所提的這幾點，嚴格上來講，其實並沒有涉及到修法的問題，只是在現行的法律上面如何去操作，第一個，裁判書的製作，我們也都在努力做簡化，當然我們也不斷的跟上級審溝通，對下級審判決的裁判審查是不是能夠再針對重點，而不要介入，比如，不要介入過多的事實，如果介入過多的事實，上級審自然就會操作成覆審，這部分當然也是我們在努力的方向，但這部分其實沒有涉及到修改法律。","像剛才委員所講的，周珮琦法官提到高等法院民庭法官的這些日常，跟委員報告，其實我們臺灣高等法院也在高院長的帶領之下，實務上面去操作，包含委員可能有聽說會有審查庭機制，嘗試著讓周法官的日常變成不是日常，這部分都不涉及修法，但實際上面都在做，當然要馬上短期間能夠立竿見影，這部分是會有它的困難。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再跟你說，制度上面的改善，包括我們上一個會期提到的覆審制要不要改為續審制，交互詰問要不要一玩再玩，這些都是我們提到的問題。上次公聽會舉行完之後，我收到非常多法官、檢察官寫email來我的公務信箱，跟我們提供很多想法，而且拜託我們一定要積極往這邊處理，因為沒有人想要累死在辦公室，你馬上也要去當法官了，接下來你也要面對過勞的問題，所以我希望能夠多給司法院一些建議。我真的收到非常非常多法官和檢察官寫email過來給我，他們也都提供了很多想法，真的是有合理的工作量，人民才會對司法能夠信任，因為這樣才有一定的司法品質出來，否則不能去談論有好的司法裁判品質，所以工作量麻煩一定要特別注意。","釋字785號解釋其實有提到，法律沒有保障到公務員輪班和值班時的健康權，這個大法官釋字出來以後被公務員罵翻了，沒有錯，當初法律沒有弄清楚，結果搞到最後變成公務員大家都在做功德，報加班有一個上限，超過的不能報，但是事情越來越多。我們以前的工作方式就是不敢休假，我以前一年有30天休假，14天必休，但我幾乎有一半以上都是在營休假，就是在辦公室寫書類，我根本不可能放假，就像我剛剛說的，六、日至少有一天一定要加班，年假也會，過年不會放到初四、初五，大概初三就開始回去加班了，這是大家的日常，副秘也很清楚，我今天不是在那邊跟大家危言聳聽啊！實務界出來的每個人都知道我們就是這樣一路過來的。","所以我今天遇到很多學長在這裡，他們看到我都說很羨慕我，因為我不用再寫書類了，所以我還是希望能夠替法官、檢察官們爭取一些權益。否則，這次勞動部的狀況也一樣，勞動部的吳姓員工也是一樣一直在做功德，一大早4、5點就去加班做到晚上8、9點，但是你看他的加班時數登記都是很短的，因為不能夠超過，否則大法官會罵人，結果到最後就是大家做功德，自願留在辦公室加班，會造成這個問題。所以這絕對不會有什麼友善司法，大法官這次就被人家罵「立意良善」這四個字，真的不行這樣！所以還是一樣要從制度著手，尤其是訴訟制度要去變更，書類製作簡化是一個非常重要的點沒有錯，但是訴訟制度的變更也是非常重要。就像我剛剛說的，二審不改成續審制的話，再多的法官都沒有用，檢方也是，如果還是搞像這樣的程序，再多的檢察官也都補不完，再多的助理、再多的事務官永遠都沒有用，不改這個，加人、去找人事總處要人都是騙人的，長官都在騙人，告訴你們工作量那麼重，我幫你們加人，事實上制度沒有改。工作量永遠只會更重，補再多人都沒有用，所以我常常說：笨蛋！問題是在制度，不是在人數，跟副秘報告有這個問題。","再來，我先點一個問題，司法院現在對於法扶基金會的捐款一年比一年高，是不是真的應該跟法扶基金會討論一下範圍會不會過廣，這是我以前在實務界的時候就曾經想過了，是不是範圍過廣，是不是要有排富條款，不能所有的族群都毫無目的的不排富，這是一個小建議，建議你們要思考一下，否則司法院編列越來越多的預算到法扶基金會，還是解決不了司法不被信任的問題。","最後，我提一個東西，我有思考到被害人訴訟參與制度，我跟林鈺雄教授也有聊過，其實我們要思考被害人訴訟參與制度到底要怎麼樣去保障，尤其是被害人家屬，他有沒有辦法在法庭上面有足夠的聲量去告訴法官他的想法，否則現在整個訴訟程序的走法，以刑事訴訟來說，全部是偏重保障被告，但是從修復式司法的角度或是從被害人家屬保障的角度來說，其實是完全不夠，司法天平是傾斜的，不是一個公正的司法，尤其不能被告輕判或是過於保障被告的權益就叫作維護司法，不是這樣子！司法一定是被告跟被害人兩者在一個天平、平等的情況下都受到保障，這才是一個值得信賴的司法制度。先跟副秘報告一下，之後我會提一個草案，我會提出重罪的被害人可以聲請調查證據、訊問被告、證人鑑定人或獨立上訴權，這些積極訴訟參與的權利，我想要去修法來賦予他們，因為還是要有保障，否則這段時間，我看到被害人或者是死者的家屬在法庭上面，他們是沒有聲音的，或是他們提出來的意見書、意見狀並不一定會被法官所採納，但是被告通常都有3個律師在那邊幫他，法官又經常會保障被告的辯護權及權益，所以我想之後會提這個草案出來。","最後一點，這次憲判字有關死刑的部分，有提到一個什麼是最嚴重的犯罪，主文的第十段有提到，這37位死刑犯如果認為自己並非犯最嚴重，這時候他可以聲請非常上訴，當然總長或最高法院同不同意、認不認同，這是另外一回事，但什麼叫作最嚴重的犯罪變成是一個很重要的點了，除了能不能判死刑之外，能不能提非常上訴，這兩個東西在最嚴重與否都會放進判斷，而且大法官其實在憲判裡面有提到，他是就犯罪動機、手段跟犯罪結果這幾個東西都去論斷，而且大法官在判決裡面還特別交代這個只是舉例說明，並不是限於只有這幾種判斷標準，但是前一陣子師鐸獎女教師的命案，最高法院駁回的理由竟然是認為不是預謀殺人，就不算是最嚴重，他等於是只有隨便抓裡面一個東西出來就這樣認定，而不是全方位、全方面的去認定。我想請問一下副秘，你覺得拿榔頭在那邊找人要敲他的頭，這不算是預謀嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，他的預謀應該是說事先就有一個犯罪計畫，當然這個是故意，至於說預謀是個案的認定，我們還必須尊重獨立審判，可能個別法官不見得會有一樣的認定。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我們的預謀就是限縮在必須要有一個縝密的計畫、要對誰幹什麼事、要取得什麼樣的結果，這個才叫預謀是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是這個案子的審判認知啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：法官獨立審判，所以我也不為難副秘，但是我必須點出這個點，即大法官在判決裡面所提到的這三點動機、手段跟結果，其實他有說了只是舉例而已，並不是限縮，所以我希望全國法官不要弄錯這個點，我沒有違背大法官的判決喔！大法官自己就這樣寫，在第十段最後面就寫：「僅係例示，而非列舉」。所以它不是限縮喔！請法官不要誤解了大法官的想法，否則你說結合性侵，又咬斷死者的乳頭，這個不叫最嚴重之罪嗎？你講出去，其實人神共憤啦！對啊，我還是在此必須提醒，所謂的最嚴重犯罪可能要麻煩司法院也能夠提出一個標準，讓大家看一下、讓全國法官看一下，也讓我們瞭解一下什麼叫作最嚴重，以後就比較不會有一些爭端出來，好嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這部分可能是比較涉及到實體，如果是刑法或相關的規定修正，我們當然會表示意見。至於說具體的案件，當案件比較多的時候，能不能夠類型化、去歸納，這部分可能要再進一步的去處理，現在可能就像委員所提示的，憲判只是說這些是例示而已，還是要去整體的做思考，這部分應該是大家比較有共識……"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝司法院，再麻煩你們就工作人員工作量辛苦的問題，再研究一下怎麼處理，謝謝。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員，因為你算是國民黨比較有憲法意識的，所以我讓你多講了幾分鐘，但還是在這邊宣告，黃副秘，雖然你馬上要去當法官了，如果我有機會擔任召集委員，你如果想要回到立法院發表高見，你跟我說，我來幫你安排，這是第一個。第二個，吳召委剛剛提到公務人員當然要保障，確實要去加強，但你談到勞工的保障包山包海，勞工的悲歌，一年365天都唱不完啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：是，比較級啦！"],["主席：要說清楚，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：比較，對。"],["主席：接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},{"id":"157425","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c743e8191f7000b246fbf47e6092a313d3d258f3eba717d081e5a549a2cf34375e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:22:21 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外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有林憶君委員、沈伯洋委員、林楚茵委員、蘇清泉委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}},{"id":"157424","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c7476b2bb7aa1bc1833bf47e6092a313d3d258f3eba717d081e71a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:13:06 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600那經過很多的測試在烏克蘭在烏克蘭認為這個彈簧刀它的效能沒有那麼好所以會影響到我們行"},{"start":76.267,"end":76.287,"text":"情誼 這個"},{"start":80.337,"end":101.241,"text":"行飛彈的一型跟二型未來的一個發展所以這個部分來講話你說有沒有必要來採購這個彈簧刀300型的還有另外就是這個ADIS的600型的這個部分有沒有必要採購因為經過烏克蘭的實戰的經驗裡面來講話品價並不好"},{"start":108.883,"end":128.641,"text":"所以如果嚴格來講我們的這個巡飛彈一型比彈簧刀還來得好而且價格上都差不多所以部長有沒有思考這個部分有沒有必要大量的採購這些這兩型的系統"},{"start":130.587,"end":146.248,"text":"我想就中科院所研製的巡迴彈一型的這個部分它是比較跟這個美資的300的性能比較相近那我們現在當然採購的是人員殺人性能度是台灣刀300的"},{"start":147.469,"end":175.914,"text":"這個最新型的部分就是兩棟的部分那另外我們主要要徵購的部分是這一個ARTIS 600這個人員不是反裝甲型的這個無人攻擊機那所以我想就這個部分在我們這個島嶼防衛作戰上面來看的話我們認為ARTIS 600的這個部分在我們的這個防衛作戰構想上面是可以發揮相當大的作用"},{"start":177.674,"end":205.348,"text":"因為我為什麼提這個我們行飛彈一行雖然沒有實戰的經驗實戰但是他的在是在本土研發生產的他的測試在我們的戰場環境就整個我們本土的國家的這個地形地物所做出來的這樣的一個這樣的一個行飛彈一行所以實際上可能"},{"start":206.195,"end":228.879,"text":"更符合我們作戰的需求啊所以在採購的來講的話行飛彈一行這個平均的價格大概300萬那實際上跟彈滑刀的無人機裡面價格都差不多所以是不是可以考慮行飛彈一行的這個部分來講是不是可以針對這個來做進行採購跟研發"},{"start":233.42,"end":241.263,"text":"我們都是雙軌並行的,也就是說外購的部分我們需要,那剛剛已經講過了,我們現在要徵購的並不是這個人員殺傷型的這一個300,我們要徵購的是那個Artist 600,"},{"start":248.285,"end":249.827,"text":"中科院的這個300的部分如果通過作案測評之後我們當然也可以再進行量產這樣子"},{"start":267.045,"end":280.38,"text":"好,在6月26號的時候就關心過美國出售彈簧刀300型,阿迪斯的650無人機你當時也回答說我們雙管並用,同步採購,那這個"},{"start":285.677,"end":311.49,"text":"本席看了陸軍隊已經採過的300架的中科型飛彈一型外﹖國軍沒有再採過任何一架型飛彈一型﹖結果陸軍一口氣就向美國採購大量的100枚無人機飛彈﹖還多編了60億準備後續採購﹖這就是看出當時本席擔心完全正確﹖而且你當時有講說是同步進行的來採購﹖"},{"start":312.651,"end":335.859,"text":"所以這個就是問題出在這個地方啊在6月28號的時候6月26號的時候我在這個地方特別質詢你所以你當時回答我是同步進行採購但是今天出了這個問題剛剛我所報告的部長所以你要重新的調整思考一下好不好那針對我們今天的"},{"start":339.226,"end":343.75,"text":"多編了55億多編了115億這個問題從哪裡來而且他的這個發價發價書裡面就已經美國的發價書裡面已經很明確的是55億針對685架的人員殺傷型291架的"},{"start":361.745,"end":390.222,"text":"防專家型的這個狀況很清楚的是55億為什麼編了115億那另外我特別要講的是第一個我們有沒有在計畫裡面有預算的精神法是預算法的精神在計畫的時候一定有預算的精神那是不是有違反了預算書的精神另外就是我特別講的我們"},{"start":394.187,"end":412.236,"text":"這個計畫預算是跟著計畫走的那現在已經有採購的計畫了嗎?還有想買多少量需要提需求書提了嗎?每方提供的發價書有了嗎?所以這個就是你為什麼編115億的狀況"},{"start":415.478,"end":440.307,"text":"而且今天美國發價書裡面就55億而已為什麼你就用這個來後續來編這個115億今天我講的是第一個採購計畫有了嗎第二想買多少數量有了嗎還有需求需求需求書提了嗎那這個就是你們今天的美方有沒有提出發價書115億的預算你要回答"},{"start":445.322,"end":472.561,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長就委員所提到第一個問題預算編列的一個程序是否符合相關的法規就預算法的規範我們國防部編列所有軍事投資建案不管是55億的需求115億需求我們都完成相關的建案程序也因為它超過10億元以上非積極密的案子我們都報奉行政院核令之後奉行政院分配預算來編列相關的預算書表送進大院來審查就預算的編列程序是沒有問題以上跟委員報告"},{"start":474.828,"end":479.611,"text":"剛剛所有的議員都已經提出對115億的疑問,你算還是合法的嗎?剛剛我先講出來了嗎?請問一下,你現在回答我請問一下,你有沒有採購的計畫?第二個,需要買多少量?第三,需求提出"},{"start":497.867,"end":525.563,"text":"西球書提了嗎?這個就是一個問題所在嘛!你們還提了嗎?理由一大堆!報告委員,我們沒有提理由,我們在這邊跟委員...你們重新檢討啦!我們這60億元都必須經過大院的同意才可以動之。那如果大院不同意的話,當然我們只能按照原本的預算狂烈來執行。對嘛!這樣回答不就是一個問題...給本席一個答案了嗎?你還講什麼理由?"},{"start":530.458,"end":532.206,"text":"好謝謝黃仁委員各位請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":302,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時13分）謝謝主席。在詢問顧部長之前，我對主席剛剛所做的口頭宣告，也就是今天獵鴞專案經國防部報告之後的可行性預算……這我對主席有點……"],["主席：沒有，我剛剛有再宣告，你可能沒聽到……"],["黃委員仁：我知道、我知道。"],["主席：今天只處理報告案，預算部分請他們跟各委員充分溝通說明後再行處理，好不好？"],["黃委員仁：好。我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長好。關於獵鴞專案，目前有兩種無人機飛彈系統，分別為人員殺傷型的彈簧刀以及反裝甲ALTIUS-600，均經過很多測試，像烏克蘭就認為彈簧刀的效能沒有那麼好，會影響我們巡飛彈1型跟2型未來的發展。就這部分來講，你們認為有沒有必要採購彈簧刀300型及ALTIUS-600型？有沒有必要採購？因為經過烏克蘭的實戰經驗，評價並不好。所以嚴格來講，我們的巡飛彈一型比彈簧刀還來得好，而且價格上都差不多，所以部長，你有沒有思考過這個部分，有沒有必要大量採購這兩型的系統？"],["顧部長立雄：我想中科院所研製的巡飛彈1型的這個部分，它是跟美製的300性能比較相近，我們現在採購的人員殺傷型是彈簧刀300最新型的部分，就是20的部分。另外，我們主要要增購的部分是ALTIUS-600，這是反裝甲型的無人攻擊機，就這個部分在我們島嶼防衛作戰上面來看的話，我認為ALTIUS-600的部分，在我們的防衛作戰構想上面，是可以發揮相當大的作用。"],["黃委員仁：我為什麼提這個？我們的巡飛彈1型雖然沒有實戰的經驗，但是它是在本土研發生產的，它的測試是在我們的戰場環境，就是針對我們整個本土的國家的地形、地物，所做出來的這樣一個巡飛彈1型，所以實際上可能更符合我們作戰的需求。在採購上來講的話，巡飛彈1型平均的價格大概300萬，實際上跟彈簧刀的無人機，價格都差不多，所以是不是可以考慮巡飛彈1型，針對這個來進行採購跟研發？"],["顧部長立雄：我們都是雙軌並行的，也就是說，外購的部分，我們需要，剛剛已經講過了，我們現在要增購的並不是人員殺傷型的300，我們要增購的是ALTIUS-600，它是反裝甲型的。中科院現在做的是比較接近300的部分，所以就這個部分，我們沒有要再增加採購，中科院300的部分，如果通過作戰測評之後，我們當然也可以再進行量產，這樣子。"],["黃委員仁：在6月26號的時候，我就關心過美國出售彈簧刀300及ALTIUS-600無人機，你當時也回答說我們會雙管其下、同步採購，但本席發現除了陸軍已經採購300架中科院的巡飛彈1型外，國軍沒有再採購任何一架巡飛彈1型，結果陸軍一口氣就向美國採購大量的100枚無人機飛彈，還多編了60億，準備後續採購，這就看出當時本席的擔心完全正確，而且你當時有講說是同步進行的來採購，所以問題就是出在這個地方，是不是？6月26號的時候，我在這個地方特別質詢你，你當時回答我是同步進行採購，但是今天就出了這個問題，剛剛我所報告的。部長，所以你要重新的調整思考一下，好不好？針對我們今天編了115億，這個問題從哪裡來？而且美國的發價書裡面已經很明確的是55億，針對685架的人員殺傷型，以及291架的反裝甲型，這個狀況很清楚是55億，我們為什麼編了115億？","另外，我特別要講的是，第一個，我們有沒有在計畫裡面依照預算法的精神，在計畫的時候，一定要符合預算的精神，那是不是有違反了預算書的精神？另外，就是我特別講的，預算是跟著計畫走的，我們現在已經有後續的採購計畫了嗎？還有想買多少量，需求書提了嗎？美方提供的發價書有了嗎？所以這個就是你為什麼編115億的狀況，而且今天美國發價書裡面才55億而已，為什麼你就用這個後續來編115億？今天我講的是，第一個，採購計畫有了嗎？第二，想買多少數量，有了嗎？還有需求書提了嗎？這個就是你們今天的，美方有沒有提出發價書115億的預算？你來回答。"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，我是主計局局長，就委員所提到第一個問題，預算編列的程序是否符合相關的法規，就預算法的規範，我們國防部編列的所有軍事投資建案，不管是55億的需求，或是115億的需求，我們都完成相關的建案程序，也因為它超過10億元以上，非極機密的案子，我們都報奉行政院核定之後，奉行政院分配預算來編列，並將相關的預算書表送請大院來審查，就預算的編列程序是沒有問題的。以上跟委員報告。"],["黃委員仁：剛剛所有的委員都已經提出對115億的疑問，你居然還說這樣是合法的！剛剛我已經講出來了嘛……"],["謝局長其賢：從55億到115億……"],["黃委員仁：請問一下，你現在回答我！請問一下，你有沒有採購的計畫？第二個，需要買多少量？第三，需求書提了嗎？這個就是一個問題所在嘛，你們還提了理由一大堆！"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我們沒有提理由，我們在這邊跟委員……"],["黃委員仁：你們重新檢討了嗎？"],["黃司長文啓：我們這60億元都必須經過大院的同意才可以動支，如果大院不同意的話，當然我們只能按照原本的預算匡列來執行。"],["黃委員仁：對嘛！這樣的回答不就是給本席一個答案了嗎？你還找什麼理由！"],["主席：好，謝謝黃仁委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員，鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請王鴻薇委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}},{"id":"157423","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157423","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c741c32f8cfc4fbf931d385048732c8e563258f3eba717d081e53e23ddd97f11bf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:03:08 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禮拜開始每一個禮拜都有咖啡可以喝謝謝謝謝主席我想這個"},{"start":85.816,"end":91.141,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議"},{"start":112.472,"end":120.115,"text":"那個未來的副秘書長你這個地方你有沒有去瞭解到大家詬病的地方?你以後就沒聽到,你以後就聽到了。"},{"start":128.339,"end":144.584,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢,因為體制上我還沒有上任,那這個部分因為不是涉及台北地院的事務,我覺得還是由我們現任的副秘來回答。倒也不是,因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方,我也想聽聽實務界的看法,司法院當然也是實務界,"},{"start":149.005,"end":152.226,"text":"法律扶助基金會審理法草案案案案案。"},{"start":171.772,"end":197.019,"text":"地檢署及經濟新法學會 演討會10月21至22有特殊強度處分的實務學術及教練演討會也就是說討論的聚焦的一個焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的一個倒退這部法令在修的時候在我們設法制委員會裡面其實經過很多的討論本席也提出很多不同的看法"},{"start":197.879,"end":202.646,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查"},{"start":214.661,"end":236.253,"text":"在情況急迫進行發動GPS還有鹽化車跟無實體的侵入監視以及輸入檢查事務官還有司法警察官司法警察可抗告的一個救濟的這樣一個強大的武器。當然我看整個建青那邊也對你們提出了很大的一個"},{"start":238.666,"end":240.666,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案 案 。"},{"start":262.071,"end":264.973,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":279.805,"end":292.191,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院�"},{"start":307.358,"end":327.925,"text":"我特別去把我們當初在科技偵查法的專法第10條的部分的規定當初的就這麼簡單當初我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二個第4條第7條前條的裁定或處分不負責得以行出說法提起抗告或申請撤銷跟變更當初的條文設計就這麼簡單對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了"},{"start":334.907,"end":358.939,"text":"因為你一准用條文明定就是本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示來做一個相反不用大家在那邊解釋了半天但是呢8月份我覺得你們回應得很好到9月份你們的回應那我就覺得你們就太過於保守了整個在我們司法院我們在審理這部法案的時候我也一直跟你們問"},{"start":360.404,"end":387.304,"text":"一直問你們說如果針對司法警察司法警察官這個部分這麼強大的做這樣的一個強大的一個處分強制處分那到最後當事人或者受調查人犯罪嫌疑人他有權利你要讓他救濟對後來如果說法律通過以後我們司法院能量到底有沒有辦法承受我們當初聚焦完全都是在這個地方嘛對不對"},{"start":388.024,"end":412.016,"text":"但是呢,我看在研討會裡面那麼多的一個教授啊,我就,比如說我就沒有一一去看啦,我在上面就都有寫啦,他就說從111年憲判制1號強制抽血的9冊,7號裡面的辨護人的救濟權,到第16號的強制採尿,都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢。"},{"start":413.977,"end":425.368,"text":"當然後面就是要給你反證我們其實都今天已經到2024年了怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除的救濟權的一個設計副秘書長你的看法"},{"start":426.704,"end":447.735,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":456.68,"end":482.058,"text":"實際上後續如果說他並不符合相關的這些規定的時候後續產生的就是證據依照那個刑事訴訟法的這個這個證據排除的規定那麼那個就不採這一部分的這些證據甚至如果說他有跟法律不符那麼也有後續的包含國家國家賠償甚至其他這些個人的責任這一部分去去付那麼如果說給他獨立的這個救濟"},{"start":484.52,"end":489.984,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、"},{"start":511.497,"end":517.359,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":541.618,"end":562.658,"text":"現在司法院換你起來你要當家了你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個比如說重新修法的這樣的一個打算確實啊確實啊你有權力就有救濟這是法律的一個基本概念啊為什麼你把柯真處分的這個部分你把它給排除掉了你們就把它排除掉啦"},{"start":567.575,"end":583.815,"text":"報告齁,其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌,但是真的假設要訂進去,司法院也沒有說絕對排除。這部分就是153之10,刑訴153之10的這一個,如果認為說真的有必要列出,但是我們比較建議說不要進在416而已。"},{"start":587.159,"end":591.741,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":611.408,"end":626.423,"text":"我們過去你看2020年的草案裡面公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則喔那我們現在這部通過的法令都已經是退縮到我們是只有執法機關的內控機制你認為這樣強大的一個強制處分只用內控的機制對嗎"},{"start":633.496,"end":641.27,"text":"你本來認為說那個部分公務人員只要違法的話那個本來刑法裡面就有規定本期一直跟你講說那個含涉的範圍不夠"},{"start":643.39,"end":645.491,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":672.937,"end":679.159,"text":"對於這些強制處分的一個救濟的部分再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排。我是認為啦。我是這樣認為啦。就是說"},{"start":705.929,"end":728.619,"text":"我本來是要這部強大的一個強制處分權的是在偵查機關那反而偵查機關取得這個權利條文的一個設計給他這個權利以後現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行不行很有可能我們是會爛權的司法院跳出來幫他背書說不會不會你們去內控就好了"},{"start":729.875,"end":750.923,"text":"你不覺得你們這個角色,你們在這部法律裡面,你讓我覺得檢察機關跟我們司法機關跟司法院這個地方,角色你們錯亂掉了。你們錯亂掉就唯一只有一個理由。您自肥的心態,你們認為這個法律通過以後,量能,你們沒有那個救濟的量能。"},{"start":753.112,"end":762.938,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":782.642,"end":805.759,"text":"沒有超過兩天或者沒有超過二十四小時這一些都不須受到法律的制約只要內控就好了我認為這個都不夠我認為這個都不夠而且你這一些科證法的強制處分完了以後這個資料未必會消失喔你只要你跟他如果還有用到啊而且沒有人知道啊他就是保留著啊"},{"start":809.267,"end":812.772,"text":"法律審理法草案案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件"},{"start":824.147,"end":827.651,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時3分）謝謝召委，有請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：來這麼多院長，我要請哪一個？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們不是有快要接任副秘書長的？王院長好了，也請上來一下，因為牽扯到實務跟法界不同的看法，剛好實務跟法界全部都是在你們家，請上來一下。"],["主席：有請王梅英院長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有今天我們吳宗憲召委要多學著點，我們在司法法制委員會，我們一直在強調要建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度，我們這個委員會也要有人性，臺灣隊拿到冠軍，當然要喝咖啡，希望下個禮拜開始，每一個禮拜都有咖啡可以喝，謝謝，謝謝主席。","兩位副秘書長，有幾個問題想來就教，科技偵查法（原本的專法）現在改在刑事訴訟法的特殊強制處分專章裡面去做討論，但是整個修法的結果出來以後，我看在學術界跟實務界產生很大的一個爭論。未來的副秘書長──王院長，你有沒有去了解到大家詬病的地方？你哪有可能沒聽到，你在你家就會聽到了。"],["王院長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢，因為體制上我還沒有上任，這個部分因為不是涉及臺北地院的事務，我覺得還是由我們現任的副秘來回答……"],["莊委員瑞雄：倒也不是，因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方，我也想聽聽實務界的看法，司法院當然也是實務界，跟整個法界的看法落差到底會有多大？據本席所知道，至少有三個學術研討會，其中一場司法院在9月9號舉辦科技偵查處分救濟權學術與實務交流研討會，然後9月13號有科技偵查暨網路流量紀錄實務研討會，這個在臺灣臺北地檢署跟經濟刑法學會裡面，另外，10月21到22有特殊強制處分實務學術交流研討會，討論聚焦的焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的倒退。","這部法令在修的時候，在我們司法法制委員會裡面其實經過很多的討論，本席也提出很多很多不同的看法，我也一直認為，其實很多地方還是有檢討的空間。以這次來看的話，最大的爭議是允許司法警察官跟司法警察可以跳過法院，許可書事後補發，在情況急迫逕行發動GPS、M化車跟無實體的侵入監視，以及疏漏了檢察事務官，還有司法警察官、司法警察所為可抗告救濟這樣強大的武器。當然，我看劍青也對你們提出了很大的一個抨擊，有一些講得有道理，但是也有一些本席不予認同的地方。","比如說針對辯護人，是不是可以獨立抗告？還是代理抗告？這個在8月修法剛過的時候，當初劍青檢改就提出聲明，在救濟權的部分，創造了辯護人的獨立抗告權，即使被告明示反對，辯護人仍得以自己名義獨立提出抗告。在8月份，我認為司法院你們的回應非常的快，非常的迅速，趕快讓它落幕了。可是你注意看，司法院的解釋我認為可以接受的一個地方，就是在第一百五十三條之十沒有明文規範是獨立，這個可以接受。另外，你們也去援引111年憲判3號的意旨，本來辯護人就不可以跟被告的明示意思表示違反，其實這個在法界形成一個通說啦！但問題是你繞了一圈回來以後，我特別去把我們當初在科技偵查法的專法第十條部分的規定拿來看，當初的就這麼簡單，當初我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二條至第四條、第七條、前條的裁定或處分不服者，得依刑事訴訟法提起抗告或聲請撤銷或變更，當初條文設計就這麼簡單，對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了。因為你一準用條文，本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示相反，不用大家在那邊解釋了半天。","8月份我覺得你們回應得很好，但是到9月份你們的回應，我就覺得你們太過於保守了。我們在審理這部法案的時候，我也一直問你們，針對如果司法警察、司法警察官做這樣強大的強制處分，當事人或者受調查人、犯罪嫌疑人有權利，你要讓他救濟，後來如果法律通過以後，司法院的能量到底有沒有辦法承受？我們當時聚焦完全都是在這個地方，對不對？可是我看在研討會裡面那麼多的教授，我就沒有一一去看，這上面都有寫了。他就說從111年憲判字1號強制抽血的酒測、7號裡面辯護人的救濟權，到第16號的強制採尿，都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢。當然後面就是要跟你反證，其實今天已經到2024年了，怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除救濟權的一個設計。副秘書長，你的看法？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，科偵的警察機關去調查跟採尿這一部分，可能不盡然相同啦！我們之前也有跟大院報告，目前針對第一百五十三條之十沒有設，因為它的程度其實是比較輕的，它也沒有繼續24小時，實際上後續如果說它並不符合相關的這些規定的時候，後續產生的就是依照刑事訴訟法證據排除的規定，就不採這一部分的證據，甚至如果它有跟法律不符，也有後續的，包含國家賠償甚至其他個人的責任這一部分去負，如果給他獨立的救濟，說實話，當然我們看到有的法是這樣，但獨立救濟的結果是怎麼樣，我們看得到，也是在宣告違法，所以這部分司法院並沒有絕對說一定不可以設，只是當時評估第一個假設將來我們偵查機關的量能因為未滿24小時這一部分的話，那麼……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不對，黃副秘書長，不對、不對，你這個回答都太過於保守了，我請教王院長。我看林鈺雄教授在研討會當中，他也直接點出來這種立法，批評我們立法倒退了50年，因為沒有納入司法警察跟司法警察官所做的強制處分，這個我是聽得下去喔！接下來現在換司法院起來，你們要當家，你們到底有沒有什麼樣的打算，比如重新修法這樣的打算？確實啊，你有權利就有救濟，這是法律的基本概念，為什麼你把科偵處分這個部分給排除掉呢？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌，但是真的假設要訂定進去，司法院也沒有說絕對排除，這部分就是刑訴第一百五十三條之十，如果認為真的有必要列，但是我們比較……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是、不是、不是。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：建議不要列在第四百一十六條而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：在本席來看，我為什麼說你們回應不到位的地方，就是現在重要的前提你們認為要有本案的存在才可以變成審查的對象，比如短時間司法警察跟司法警察官所為的科技偵查處分，最後可能沒有成案，你們認為受干預的對象就算收到通知書也無從救濟起，你們的想法可能是在這個地方，但是過去2020年的草案裡面，公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則，現在這一部通過的法令都已經是退縮到只有執法機關的內控機制，你認為這樣強大的強制處分只用內控的機制，對嗎？你本來認為那個部分公務人員只要違法的話，反而新法裡面就有規定，本席一直跟你們講涵攝的範圍不夠，甚至在三讀完以後，我還跟林思銘講、還跟各黨的委員講，我們漏掉了一個條文，我們刻意把它疏漏掉，因為給了司法警察、司法警察官這麼大的強制處分以後，本來在原條文的設計裡面還有公務人員處分這樣的規定，我們反而到最後把那個條文給拿掉了，現在大家在這個地方做爭論，我們到底還有沒有對於這些強制處分的救濟部分，再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，假設大院認為應該要去修，我們也是建議第一百五十三條之十是不是在能量可以的地方賦予他救濟，但是不要在第四百十六條，因為第四百十六條的射程在所有實務上面大概是沒有辦法的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是這樣認為，我也不知道要怎麼說你們，本來要這個強大的強制處分權是在偵查機關，偵查機關取得這個權力，條文的設計給它這個權力以後，現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行、不行，很有可能他們是會濫權的。司法院還跳出來幫他背書說不會、不會，你們去內控就好了。在這部法律裡面，讓我覺得檢察機關跟司法院你們角色錯亂掉了，你們角色錯亂掉唯一只有一個理由，你們自肥的心態認為這個法律通過以後，你們沒有那個救濟的量能，我想來想去你們就只有這個考慮而已，可是只有這樣的考慮，這不對喔！這不對喔！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可以來檢討，司法院也在檢討這一部分，只要合理，如果像學者講的那麼宣示違法也應該達到一定的作用，我想可以來檢討。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的想法一直都很簡單，科偵法神不知鬼不覺，你說時間很短沒有超過2天或沒有超過24小時，這些都不需受到法律的制約只要內控就好了，我認為這個都不夠，而且科偵法的強制處分完了以後，這個資料未必會消失，他案如果還有用到，而且沒有人知道，它就是保留著。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：子法底下當然要就這些東西做規範，授權子法底下。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是認為司法院這部分跟檢察機關來比較的話，反而你們太過於保守，而且這個心態昭然若揭，只站在你們自己的立場，所以我認為司法院對這樣的法律設計，是不是應該重新跟行政院考慮協商一下，再來提出事後的一個補救，我覺得這是很迫切的一件事情，好不好？王院長抱歉喔。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員，我們會研究。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝黃副秘書長跟王院長。","接下來請吳召委宗憲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},{"id":"157422","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157422","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c746c8a6ca53f93d4f6bf47e6092a313d3d258f3eba717d081eb0c18060a6df1b5f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:53:29 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600的這個無人機其實我們從因為陸軍"},{"start":272.369,"end":277.934,"text":"的說明是說111年4月就開始接近二無戰爭他的作戰需求根據外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年也就是因為你們說111年你們就就是2022年你們就已經接近二無戰爭可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批"},{"start":297.212,"end":297.292,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":322.609,"end":323.029,"text":"美軍誰在使用?你有確定嗎?確定嗎?"},{"start":347.639,"end":352.003,"text":"因為就我們看到的資料近期的文章他有發表美國陸軍測試而且證明了Artis-600它能夠作為網絡風群進行大量操作這是文章說的然後Artis-600無人機它之前也展示過空中發射重點是沒有採用美國的陸軍沒有採用"},{"start":373.442,"end":379.005,"text":"所以在這個部分因為像Artis600它是新創公司過去大家看到的它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現我剛剛講的它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架這個直升機這個無人機去攻莫斯科兩架都被打下來所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失我們不知道美國的陸軍並沒有採用就我們得到的訊息"},{"start":402.375,"end":402.395,"text":"105分鐘"},{"start":432.386,"end":446.857,"text":"105分鐘可是安和局他公告的給我們的上線是600M喔他的時間是4小時喔你當初給我們的資料是他的飛行時間4小時喔那個是徵收型的我們現在買的是供給型的不是他有M4小時然後他如果我們買的所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊"},{"start":456.705,"end":460.128,"text":"你原來因為像報章雜誌其實他講的都是600M然後安和局要給我們的他當然是給你可以買到M的可是我們卻買600所以這個部分包括他的滯空啦他的你彈藥籌載啦或者其他的續航力是不是有問題是不是有符合我們的需求我想這個都是要必須要說清楚的所以今天如果在這些因為還包括你買的"},{"start":483.323,"end":488.186,"text":"現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型,你會買兩倍以上的數量,我們以後要放在哪裡?而且它不斷的進步,我們像台灣這麼潮濕,過去F16還有我們的艦體,其實都有鏽蝕的狀況,像這個你要放在哪裡?又要蓋嗎?又要蓋東西來放嗎?所以就這幾個原因,我們不認為我們現在要急著要花這麼多的錢,繼續去"},{"start":510.359,"end":510.399,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":525.84,"end":541.954,"text":"黃委員容我三句話簡短的向您報告第一個重啟建案它如果按照整個建案程序這類似或是該型的裝備最快的獲得恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得這是第一點報告第二個對於類似Artis 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案 。"},{"start":100.706,"end":126.354,"text":"有相關的內容報告嗎?那個士林這第一院的部分當然這一位犯罪違法的這一位我們當然有給他相關的這些處分包含已經一審都判了嘛至於說檢討的這些機制我們現在也就在做那麼我們現在的預期就是說既有的這個申訴管道本來都有建立那但是但是在實際上辦理的過程中辦理過程中"},{"start":128.595,"end":129.396,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案。"},{"start":151.934,"end":165.623,"text":"所以我現在要求的就是說未來司法院或者各級法院面對這樣的有關於我們這個不管是法官助理或書記官有關性騷擾的相關的一個申訴要立即展開調查"},{"start":168.752,"end":171.534,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案。"},{"start":186.121,"end":190.507,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會"},{"start":204.484,"end":207.446,"text":"三、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請"},{"start":229.96,"end":230.66,"text":"所以回復的可能性沒有了嗎?零嗎?"},{"start":254.736,"end":283.61,"text":"所以那個評議部銷毀就銷毀了你現在沒有辦法去查證說當時評議的結果是怎樣嗎跟委員報告齁那那大法官現判並雖然講要一字決但是他並沒有限定去查調查一字決的證據到底是什麼他也沒有講是限定是評議部所以說將來假設這個評議部因為保存預期銷毀了那麼那麼是不是有其他的方式去去調查當時是不是一字決這部分所以還是有可能把他回復"},{"start":284.15,"end":288.294,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律審議"},{"start":309.554,"end":334.586,"text":"那我們法院是不是要去就是要釋放他或者申請繼續羈押?跟委員報告吼,那麼將來他申請非常,他認為像檢察總長那邊檢察總長是不是接受,是不是採納檢察總長認為要申請非常上訴,最高法案是不是接受,這部分都是由他們各自審判體系跟檢察總長之權,在這邊司法行政我們是沒有辦法自會"},{"start":335.046,"end":339.373,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院"},{"start":351.21,"end":355.911,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院組函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院組"},{"start":374.136,"end":398.982,"text":"其實我想告訴司法院的因為這個真的沒有模糊的空間因為你評議部已經銷毀了你要去舉證證明說當時評議的結果到底是不是一字決這會產生舉證的困難這個我們真的不要再去做任何的掩蓋了所以我才會講如果說他們申請救濟的話到底當然"},{"start":400.449,"end":411.915,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於"},{"start":430.626,"end":432.908,"text":"法律審查司法院函送財團法人法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查"},{"start":460.589,"end":460.927,"text":"事件審理法草案 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我們請郭部長來 部長請"},{"start":5.675,"end":34.295,"text":"首先我要先講一下那主席剛才一開始在最一開始開會的時候有講到說如果今天報告確認後可行信預算是可以直接認可的但我們在建案的時候包含價格採購數量不一還有剛才的幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部裡面去提出很多的疑慮所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題應該要重新建案先表達我個人的看法"},{"start":34.995,"end":54.605,"text":"那首先要問的一個問題是顧部長您知道在113年中央政府的總預算暨付主單位預算案半年的查核報告裡面呢我們的這個執行率我們的上半年度的執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下好不好"},{"start":61.135,"end":61.455,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":84.684,"end":85.084,"text":"這一點大家必須要了解"},{"start":112.31,"end":115.712,"text":"再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億"},{"start":137.205,"end":144.569,"text":"那今年6月公告是115億那我們呢也同意了補編列55億的情況之下又減到這個減到55億等於說少了60億這個情形當然會讓大家覺得說那是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億台幣可以買到的東西那只是美國國會公告之後我們沒有去向美方針對這個專案管理去好好的洽談"},{"start":162.418,"end":175.771,"text":"所以我第二個問題是要問的是說我們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面我們我方是否有評估列銷專案的單價是否合理我方不是美方"},{"start":177.09,"end":191.102,"text":"跟委員報告第一點就是您剛問的那個國防的整體預算執行率到10月底只會到91.4那軍事投資的部分會到92.5那預判到年底會達94.8那我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況那有關於這個獵鴞專案的這個部分我們當時在這個知會國會的價格在提出115億的時候我們確實是有疑問的你們有疑問對但是我們因為"},{"start":204.833,"end":228.435,"text":"我們為了不讓這個因為這個因為他自衛國會的金額已經到達這個金額那我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億的這樣子的一個價格來變那萬一預算不足的話這個建案就會構成所以啊我了解你的意思所以如果說我們自己都覺得有疑慮但我們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通而是照單全收別人降價才跟著"},{"start":228.715,"end":228.895,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":249.838,"end":268.53,"text":"要求免方具體的說明價差的一個因應那我們降了60億之後呢那基本上就省下了這60億之後那為什麼我們不是直接把這個錢那我們之後我們另外建案去買其他的東西而是要直接在這個預算裡面就直接往後加呢因為如果你這樣做的話我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢"},{"start":270.771,"end":284.897,"text":"而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型更符合台灣的戰略想定那省上來的錢也可以繼續買別的啊那為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續去增購這個我就不細講啦這個怕涉及國防機密就直接再去增購這個相關的武器呢"},{"start":294.52,"end":305.55,"text":"我想RTS-600它事實上就是一個最新型的一個無人機它的制工時間是相當久那對於這個裝甲型的這一個武器的反制是相當的高我們現在對這一款的攻擊性的無人機我們認為我們現在進行"},{"start":313.097,"end":314.178,"text":"徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯：徐巧芯："},{"start":333.777,"end":358.414,"text":"我的看法就是我覺得呢你們只要重新建案的話我們百分之百會支持沒有人要說我們台灣不用無人機只是現在目前的這個方式我們很難接受那再來我要特別來問的是說我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型號目前的進度那正在進行博港測試目前缺失改善的情形跟何時在博港測試什麼時候會全部完成"},{"start":360.099,"end":371.088,"text":"海軍參謀長,補充一下目前我們一個測試的進度大概83%到85%你說HAT的部分?對,HAT,那預計是在3月底4月1號會執行所以我們目前博港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項?"},{"start":383.582,"end":389.944,"text":"那你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行?只是判斷而已嗎?那節點的管制如果說那又有延宕的話那你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎?"},{"start":405.53,"end":421.283,"text":"現在目前都是正常目前是正常的但是你如果說4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕這是有可能發生的情況對吧目前看不到會有這個發生目前還在好那你ASAT海上測試之後你們預計要花多少時間預計是從4月1號到9月30號之間完成"},{"start":425.874,"end":452.816,"text":"所以你們在什麼時候會交鑒?交鑒在11月交鑒在11月嗎?那如果你們交鑒這個有沒有延期的可能性?還是你現在要告訴我11月絕對交鑒不會延到明年?目前還在預讀內目前這個對我要問的不是目前嘛我問的是你們現在評估是說你要現在跟我保證說今年一定會交鑒哪怕是12月不會延到明年"},{"start":454.083,"end":470.517,"text":"報言就目前的一個現況是可以明年11月份交易那因為是這樣子我們現在在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面呢2016年開始潛艦國造第一第二階段裡面一艘就做了8年那我們對外也都沒有公開說明我們原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節"},{"start":473.099,"end":498.626,"text":"現在要一次編列預算到127年而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性明年只會用到這個初期簽約甚至不需要20億這麼多為什麼要多編這麼多預算主席我把它講完他們簡單的一次答覆那所以說呢"},{"start":499.386,"end":524.552,"text":"我可以接受你們今年先編兩艘或三艘的潛艦艦案但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編七艘今年才114年你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年等於是十幾年的預算我現在35歲你做好我也要50歲啦那個七艘都好你們都現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦所以呢"},{"start":526.652,"end":553.997,"text":"像這樣子我們看獵鴞專案都知道了有任何異狀的時候多編出來的預算如果就可以拿去做別的事情這樣的預算完全不合理再加上審計部目前對於國防部的上半年的這個核實的報告也認為是有進度落後效率不彰的問題所以我的具體建議是呢我們可以分階段來建案如果分階段建案的話我個人會完全支持但如果說你要一次性的編"},{"start":555.077,"end":575.765,"text":"一百二十七年從現在開始一次性的編七艘那我覺得呢到時候萬一在比如說一百二十五年的時候出了任何的問題那我們現在來編列預算這些委員我們很難跟全民交代所以是否可以請部長考慮一下我們在編列預算上面的合理性做一些調整"},{"start":576.445,"end":577.745,"text":"但你做到一半的時候我很難給你叫停啊?"},{"start":604.593,"end":614.842,"text":"您也同意後續建,所以我們也看原型建做的結果怎麼樣,那我們一定會來編列一個確實的預算,然後送大院來審議相關預算。"},{"start":619.105,"end":619.325,"text":"徐巧芯委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時42分）謝謝主席，請顧部長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：部長請。"],["徐委員巧芯：首先我要先講一下，主席剛才在最一開始開會的時候有講到，如果今天報告確認後，可行性預算是可以直接認可的，但我們在建案的時候，包含價格、採購數量不一，還有剛才幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部提出很多疑慮，所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題，應該要重新建案，先表達我個人的看法。","首先我要問的問題是，顧部長，你知道在113年中央政府總預算暨附屬單位預算案的半年查核報告裡面，你們上半年度執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，儘快好不好？時間非常有限，我們後面還有很多問題。"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，我是主計局局長。有關113年度上半年的半年決算大概有62項重要的軍事投資計畫執行未……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，有62項，你講的是上半年度未分配預算有62項，占了26%。那上半年預算執行率沒有達到90%的有49項，占了21%，也就是說，以上半年來說，你們去年跟立法院要了錢，但是卻有一半的項目執行得不確實，也就是說，預算如果通過了，那就沒有辦法接受監督，你不斷落後的情況也會影響到我們今年在審查預算時的想法，這一點大家必須要了解。","再來就是我們今天討論獵鴞專案的部分，第一個問題是，今天差了60億的差價，這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過了，我就不再重提，首先外界會先去質疑的是，是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格？不然怎麼會我們113年的時候編了60億，今年6月公告是115億，我們也同意補編列55億的情況之下，又減到55億，等於說少了60億，這個情形當然會讓大家覺得，是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億臺幣可以買到的東西，只是美國國會公告之後，我們沒有向美方針對這個專案管理去好好地洽談？所以我第二個問題要問的是說，你們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面，我方是否有評估獵鴞專案的單價是否合理？我方，不是美方。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一點，就是您剛剛問的國防整體預算執行率至10月底止會到91.4%，軍事投資的部分會到92.5%，預判到年底會達94.8%，我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況。有關於獵鴞專案的部分，當時知會國會的價格提出115億的時候，我們確實是有疑問的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有疑問？"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是我們為了不讓這個……因為他知會國會的金額已經到達這個金額，我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億這樣子的價格來編，萬一預算不足的話，這個建案就會構成……"],["徐委員巧芯：我了解你的意思，如果你們自己都覺得有疑慮，但你們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通，而是照單全收，別人降價才跟著走。今天如果美方他們沒有，可能經過雷神的事情，然後大家重新去檢視這些狀況，沒有下修這個金額的話，那我們不就變「盤子」多花60億嗎？這件事情是讓大家覺得不能接受的地方啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛已經跟委員報告，就是我們事實上在他知會國會之後，我們就持續跟美方洽商，要求美方具體說明價差的原因。"],["徐委員巧芯：了解，降了60億之後，基本上就省下了這60億，為什麼你們不是直接把這個錢另外建案去買其他的東西，而是要在這預算裡面就直接往後加呢？因為如果你這樣做的話，我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢？而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的，一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型，更符合臺灣的戰略想定，那省下來的錢也可以繼續買別的，為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續增購……這個我就不細講了，怕涉及國防機密，就直接再去增購相關的武器呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我想ALTIUS-600事實上就是一個最新型的無人機，它的滯空時間相當久，對於裝甲型武器的反制相當的高……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，這個我了解，你們都報告過。"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在對這一款攻擊性無人機，我們認為我們現在進行這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有需求嘛！對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：有，我們有這樣的需求。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有需求，然後你們也報了。"],["顧部長立雄：希望大院能夠支持。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有需求，你們當時也報了單價，也報了數量，國會這邊也給了支持，所以你們既然當時報的數量是這樣子的、價格是這樣子的，那你們突然現在等於又要繼續多買，那我的看法就是，我覺得你們只要重新建案的話，我們百分之百會支持，沒有人要說我們臺灣不用無人機，只是現在這個方式我們很難接受。","再來，我要特別來問的是，我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型艦目前的進度是正在進行泊港測試，缺失改善的情形跟泊港測試什麼時候會全部完成？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好，海軍參謀長補充一下，目前我們測試的進度大概83%到85%。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說HAT的部分？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：對，HAT，預計是在3月下旬……"],["徐委員巧芯：海上測試什麼時候會開始執行？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：4月1號會開始執行。"],["徐委員巧芯：4月1號會執行，所以目前泊港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前還在繼續持續地做，因為它改善的這個部分大概……"],["徐委員巧芯：你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們現在第一個節點會在1月中……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是判斷而已嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，1月中以前會做缺失的一個節點管制，3月底前完成……"],["徐委員巧芯：節點的管制如果又有延宕的話，你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前都是正常。"],["徐委員巧芯：目前是正常的，但是如果4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕，這是有可能發生的情況，對吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前看不到會有這個發生，目前還在……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那開始SAT（海上測試）之後，你們預計要花多少時間？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：預計從4月1號到9月30號之間完成。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們在什麼時候會交艦？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：交艦在11月。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們交艦有沒有延期的可能性？還是你現在告訴我11月絕對交艦，不會延到明年？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前還在裕度內，目前這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我要問的不是目前嘛！我問的是你們現在評估是這樣，那麼你現在要跟我保證今年一定會交艦，哪怕是12月，不會延到明年。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，就目前的狀況是可以明年11月份交艦。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，因為是這樣子，在我們現在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面，2016年開始潛艦國造第一、第二階段，一艘就做了8年，那你們對外也都沒有公開說明原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節，現在要一次編列預算到127年，而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量，那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性，明年只會用到出席簽約，甚至不需要20億這麼多，為什麼要多編這麼多預算？","主席，我把它講完，他們簡單一次答復。","所以我可以接受你們今年先編2艘或3艘的潛艦建案，但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編7艘，今年才114年，你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年，等於是十幾年的預算，我現在35歲，你做好我已經要50歲啦，7艘做好，你們現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦！所以像這樣子，我們看獵鴞專案都知道了，有任何異狀的時候，多編出來的預算如果可以拿去做別的事情，這樣的預算完全不合理。再加上審計部目前對於國防部上半年的查核報告也認為是有進度落後、效率不彰的問題，所以我的具體建議是，你們可以分階段來建案，如果分階段建案的話，我個人會完全支持，但如果說你要一次性的編到127年，從現在開始一次性的編7艘，那我覺得到時候萬一，比如說在125年的時候出了任何的問題，那我們現在來編列預算的這些委員很難跟全民交代，所以是否可以請部長考慮一下在編列預算上面的合理性，做一些調整？"],["主席：部長，請摘要回答。"],["顧部長立雄：第一點，我們一定會等海上測試通過以後，才會動用所編列的任何一分錢，如果海上測試沒有通過，我們不會動用任何一毛錢，這是第一點。第二點，後續相關預算的編列每年都還是會送大院來審查，所以應該是不會有……"],["徐委員巧芯：但你做到一半的時候，我很難給你叫停。"],["顧部長立雄：您講的就是說，因為你也同意後續艦嘛？"],["徐委員巧芯：我同意、我同意。"],["顧部長立雄：你也同意後續艦，所以我們也看原型艦做的結果怎麼樣，那我們一定會分年來編列一個確實的預算，然後送大院來審議相關的預算需求。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝，我再一次建議，你們以2艘、3艘、2艘，或3艘、2艘、2艘的方式來編，這樣會比較合理，我們也比較好審查，我們也能夠來支持，但是這樣子127年一次編了十幾年的方式，我們在預算審查上面會有難度，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，它其實還是2、3、2這樣編啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道。但是……"],["主席：另外，我們現在委員都有在這裡，我們今天就先處理報告的部分，因為剛才多位委員包含本席，認為預算多出來的部分到底該怎麼使用，沒有一個完整的說明，是要繳庫繳回來，還是要增加採購量，這些都要有一個依據，所以我們今天先就這個獵鴞專案進行報告，今天就不處理預算數的部分，先跟各位做說明。","接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}},{"id":"157419","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157419","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c74dcac458557c36df2d385048732c8e563992f522713f799f899ca43a5534ac6bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:32:12 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303.148,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":314.062,"end":317.164,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金法律扶助基金法律扶助基金法律"},{"start":331.514,"end":333.895,"text":"法律扶助基金會審理法律扶助基金會審理法律扶助基金會"},{"start":353.243,"end":357.787,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案"},{"start":374.841,"end":399.129,"text":"好,那我們為了要增加這個律師接案的意願也考量到這個國民法官訴訟的這個時程和辯護的這種特殊性那我們也看到這個法服的對於國民法官法刑事的一審這個辯護案件的酬金基數有再次調整但對於非國民法官的這個案件給予律師的酬金似乎就未能跟著往上調"},{"start":400.39,"end":417.328,"text":"即便法符以公益性質為主,但參酌各法符律師的工作量和付出的薪金應該還是要有合理調整酬金的空間。請問目前有沒有研擬來調整這方面的方案?"},{"start":418.525,"end":434.218,"text":"跟委員報告,那這一部分當然法律扶助基金會持續跟司法院在座溝通。那麼一個,那個國民法官的這部分,因為國民法官律師之前接任國民法官的辯護這部分意願"},{"start":435.359,"end":440.263,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會"},{"start":458.098,"end":462.022,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":486.162,"end":513.296,"text":"還是請我們司法院對於這個法府的財政能力有限的這個資源的合理運用審慎評估並且盡快的研擬出具體的可行方案真正能改善這些存在多年的問題讓我們法府得以穩健並永續的經營能夠長久作為弱勢民眾的一個保護另外我想請教就是關於這個少年級家事法庭的這個增設"},{"start":514.937,"end":534.597,"text":"以及專業辦案人力的部分有鑒於先前發生重大少年事件的時候社會上呼籲要盡快完善社會安全網更因應近年來少家案件的不斷增加需要成立北部少家法院來確保量能"},{"start":535.437,"end":558.525,"text":"今年司法院在預算當中有關籌備北部少年法院的部分就編列了1.4億其中我們有超過1億是辦公廳社修繕的費用分兩年來分攤2.5億的總金額既然籌備的預算已經有編列最快什麼時候有機會可以看到正式成立"},{"start":559.465,"end":573.341,"text":"和委員報告因為這一部分的這些整件包含說我們現在要找的一點事宜這部分是以一個中繼辦公中繼法院中繼辦公室目前是設在那個士林郵局"},{"start":574.682,"end":592.489,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第16次全體委員會函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法"},{"start":598.211,"end":605.057,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":614.986,"end":622.229,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":643.223,"end":643.964,"text":"一百一十五年期預算書案。"},{"start":656.397,"end":659.76,"text":"法律扶助基金會審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法"},{"start":684.457,"end":690.582,"text":"人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函請審議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時32分）謝謝主席，有請副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：副秘書長早，還有在場各位列席的首長、各位院長，大家早。首先我針對法律扶助基金會的運作現況和相關的議題跟副秘書長做討論。為了保障人民在憲法上的訴訟權及平等權，法扶扮演相當重要的角色，平常我們在地方上接到民眾陳情的時候，民眾也是希望能夠提供適當的法律諮詢服務，如果因為經濟條件弱勢而無力負擔訴訟費用，可能就需要轉介法扶。但法扶基金會於2004年成立至今，在財源上還是高度依賴政府，每年的預算有九成以上是政府捐助，司法院挹注的預算也是逐年提升，而明年度司法院對於法扶的捐助達到15.2億，比去年又增加了1億。請教副秘，對於籌措自主財源的部分，司法院和法扶有沒有研議新的方案？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然，法扶原來的規劃是司法院捐助達100億的時候，以其利息去支應，但是目前來講絕大部分每年法扶都得靠司法院捐助，而捐助的金額也逐步、逐步提高，明年我們編了15億。","我們一方面希望法扶能夠自己儘量開拓財源，法扶也努力在做，所以他們明年會有很多募款計畫，但是募款的比例還是相當地有限。現在我們也是希望至少國家捐助的預算能夠用在刀口上面，不要產生排擠，所以明年我們捐助的錢，比如現在一般認為沒有排富的是像強制代理的案件，強制代理的案件現在也有相當的量，強制代理案件並沒有特別規定要審查資力，但是我們也希望接下來法扶再碰到強制辯護案件時，還是能夠初步去做衡酌。如果這個被告並不是沒有資力的話，可能可以優先考慮依照義務辯護或是由公設辯護人去做支應，真正符合法律扶助無資力的這部分再用法扶，這樣子才不會產生資源排擠。","另外，關於如何提升律師接案意願、合理調整法律扶助酬金部分，去年法扶也有跟司法院進行協商，因為我們的酬金基數長期沒有調整，所以我們也斟酌在基數上面去做微調，這部分也反映在明年預算增加了五千多萬，其中除了案件量增加之外，這些基數的調整也反映在這裡面，所以這些相關機制，司法院都有在積極進行，就是希望讓人民的納稅錢能夠用在刀口上。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們的預算會逐年成長，有部分是因為擴大對象及範圍，增加相關的案件量，雖然立意良善，但還是要審慎將有限資源發揮在扶助弱勢個案上。尤其在過去的經驗上，除了有財力的人申請，被扶助的人也不一定是被害人，有關建立排富或是避免被濫用的機制，這部分司法院是不是有一個比較明確的規劃？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：在以往、最早期的時候，像勞動部向法扶提出的勞動專案，去年內政部也有向法扶提出希望能夠增加租賃專案，甚至原住民專案，原住民專案以前都是放得比較寬的。但是就誠如委員所指教的，資源還是要合理分配，我們和法扶在做業務溝通的時候，以及我們有一個監督管理委員會，對法扶的運作會持續地關注，也都跟他們講要設定一定資力的上限，比如，像勞工專案，假設他的月薪超過6萬5,000元，以前是8萬元，現在降到6萬5,000元，他的每月收入超過6萬5,000元的話，我們就認為他恐怕不能算是無資力的人，這個時候是不是就應該要保守一點，不要在這部分去提供扶助，不要發生早期有月入十幾萬的勞工也申請法律扶助，由法律扶助用公費去幫他找律師，現在這種情形都不會有。","至於剛才講的強制律師代理部分，也希望能夠與公設辯護人機制、義務辯護機制互相做一個調整，法扶仍然著重在無資力的部分，這也是我們跟基金會持續要求和溝通的，所以相關的機制都有，因為我們也非常在意這個預算的膨脹，如果不是非這樣不可、非有必要的話，我們的監督管理委員會都會去做這些相關的控管。"],["陳委員俊宇：為了要增加律師接案的意願，也考量到國民法官的訴訟時程和辯護特殊性，我們看到法扶對於國民法官法刑事一審辯護案件酬金基數有再次調整，但對於非國民法官案件給予律師的酬金似乎就未能跟著往上調，即便法扶是以公益性質為主，但參酌各法扶律師的工作量和付出心力，應該還是要有合理調整酬金的空間，請問目前有沒有研擬調整這方面的方案？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這部分法律扶助基金會有持續和司法院在做溝通，第一個，國民法官的部分，因為這些律師之前接任國民法官的辯護意願不是那麼高，就是怕跟一般案件不一樣，會產生嚴重排擠其他案件的作用，因為他這段時間接了法律扶助基金會，幾乎沒有辦法再做其他案件，一般案件就不會，所以今天要增加這部分的意願的話，就必須把國民法官案件辯護的酬金部分提高。但是誠如委員所講的，如果一般的其他案件都沒有提高的話，似乎也相對並不是很公平，所以我們現在一般案件的酬金基數也有相對的去做調整，當然沒有到國民法官案件那麼高，還是讓它有所區別，但並不是沒有調整，所以這部分也反映在明年的預算增加，有一部分就是在這部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：明年？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，還是請司法院對於法扶的財政能力、有限資源合理運用審慎評估，並且儘快研擬出具體的可行方案，真正能改善這些存在多年的問題，讓法扶得已穩健並永續經營，能夠長久作為弱勢民眾的保護。","另外，我想請教關於少年及家事法院的增設以及專業辦案人力的部分，有鑑於先前發生重大少年事件的時候，社會上呼籲要儘快完善社會安全網，更因應近年來少家案件的不斷增加，需要成立北部少家法院來確保量能，今年司法院在預算當中，有關籌備北部少家法院的部分編列了1.4億，其中有超過1億是辦公廳舍修繕費用，分兩年分攤總金額2.5億，既然籌備的預算已經編列，最快什麼時候有機會可以看到正式成立？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為這一部分的整建包含我們現在要找的中繼法院、中繼辦公室，這個部分是1.4億，目前是預設在士林郵局，所以我們這段時間要進行裝修，畢竟一個法院的規模所需要硬體與一般辦公室是有很大落差的，我們的時程預計是在115年7月左右會讓這個法院去運作。至於這些相關的人力，我們目前只能儘量，委員也瞭解司法院的總預算員額已經到了上限、瓶頸了，我們整個可以用的只剩下兩百多個人，不是只有少家法院，整個司法體系下至地方法院、上至最高法院，包含司機、工友在內，包含法官在內，我們只剩下兩百多個人可以用。所以我們目前只能斟酌有辦法運用的部分，再增加這些調保人力，但是後期這些人力的到位，我們恐怕還得去規劃，當員額有餘裕的時候，我們才能夠去做斟酌，但是運作的部分，我們在115年會讓它運作。"],["陳委員俊宇：115年7月嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：預設是如此。"],["陳委員俊宇：我另外請教一下副秘書長，針對剛剛你一直提到的員額部分，行政院會不會支持鬆綁以提高我們的員額？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，去年司法院一直跟大院，還有跟行政院溝通，在目前的總員額上限之下，我們只剩下兩百多人，當然還有那些控管員額都已經報了國考，實際上就是兩百多個可以用，上至法官、下至工友，全國只能用這兩百多個。所以我們立刻就面臨困境，現在少家法院的成立，我們硬體可以給，人還在想辦法，現階段我們只能跟行政院、大院說這部分是需要大家支持的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我還是希望司法院能夠儘快補齊相關的人力，加強曝險少年的輔導工作，同時也讓少年事件保護制度能夠更完善，少家司法的專業度也能夠相對提升，以上，謝謝。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝黃副秘書長。","接下來請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},{"id":"157418","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157418","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c748a7e2ff9450c7bb8bf47e6092a313d3d992f522713f799f842e813f5a017db975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:30:36 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麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長顧部長 參謀長是 王委員我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案軍 軍售 軍售案嘛因為我剛才看了一下你的報告"},{"start":19.81,"end":37.504,"text":"原始報價是向國會報了初步報價後來確認要買的數量了之後呢軍總跟美國的國防部去核實溢價的時候他價格降下來但這個差別的比例相當高差了將近百分之四十幾"},{"start":38.723,"end":66.816,"text":"所以我們一般在軍售案裡面從發價合價到audit到集合都是美國軍方負責但目前為止之前的愛國者案雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案那我們如果採商售因為我們國人必須了解就是軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一那商售的話部長合價啦巡價啦議價大概是我方要負責嘛"},{"start":67.813,"end":68.093,"text":"我為什麼要提這一點?"},{"start":92.455,"end":120.123,"text":"就算是軍售案當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度他們的集合人員編制也比我們大太多但是一件兩件三件這樣的情形下我們面對軍售案的時候事實上我們是把買方對於價格的核定跟事後的集合我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課也就是不知道講多少就多少否則這一次他降了那為什麼沒降呢"},{"start":121.328,"end":145.79,"text":"我們就變多花了40多%的價格去買了一樣的裝備你懂我意思嗎這一次當然美方誠實的去集合核實價格表示這個機制還是有效但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效有些東西還掌握在我方我們部長對這一個軍售案商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責的我們自己要各方來源去比較那在軍售案美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價"},{"start":147.895,"end":171.944,"text":"國會合可之後我們真的要買的數量的時候他們的國防部以及軍總會提出來這時候價格就會接近買價所以我第一個建議是說我們部裡面要不要思考或是站規師這裡我們對美方的軍售案有關這些價格的我們至少要去監控它 要去審核它我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法我想是不是先請站規師"},{"start":174.262,"end":202.442,"text":"報告委員在我們過去的部分針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P&A也就是報價書或是出戶報價為主但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子我們也已經跟美方達成共識就是針對未來重要軍售案裡面我們會提前做一個價格的預審去了解到目前一般的價格是多少去精進它價格的實務"},{"start":203.823,"end":232.71,"text":"商售你們都會去做這些功課啦那我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況這個部分我們因為這個軍購案動輒都幾十億的差額這個影響的預算數很大我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理就是說這個裡面都是民脂民膏我們希望用在對的地方第二個部分"},{"start":233.868,"end":257.514,"text":"那現在有差價了嘛我到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置使用單位也就陸軍這邊你要有一個數量的依據我到底有多少戰力因為這現在有多少人要用我要訓練多少人我不是說現在錢多出來了我就多買個500套吧500套有500套的人啊"},{"start":258.699,"end":278.073,"text":"暫立的分佈它在哪裡所以我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到就是說我們現在國會面對有兩個選擇嘛今天你們這個報告案要嘛就是來請你們就照原數額買因為原數額是經過暫立評估相關的評估然後去購買的那多餘的價格那我們就繳回庫"},{"start":279.494,"end":301.819,"text":"另外一種心情是既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說我們原來就是錢不夠所以才買了一半後面要增加買這個要很科學的告訴我們而不是多多益善部長這邊請回答跟委員報告第一個我們據我了解我們本來的這個案本來就不是只有要買這樣子的一個數量我們只是依照這個"},{"start":303.039,"end":319.153,"text":"國家財政的預渡我們先購買這樣的一個量第二點就是說我們現在是根據相關還要再進行這個所謂的模式模擬我們會對於整個作戰防衛的這個構想所需要的這個因為你們今天這一塊"},{"start":321.876,"end":337.313,"text":"陳永康將軍是有經驗的人了你應該原來我評估要買一千枚我因為國家財政我現在買三百枚現在價格打六折了那我可以把原來一千枚要達標的我可以增加這個也許可以說服委員這一塊我們今天沒有看到"},{"start":338.193,"end":352.059,"text":"我們這個部分會後再提供一個那個詳細的因為現在我們本席我們今天報告案完這個預算的處理那我請部長思考看看是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後是"},{"start":354.76,"end":381.634,"text":"預算的部分我們再來處理就是說我們可以一次處理但是如果說明不清楚容易早因為我原來可能要買這麼多第一階段買多少這介紹戰力的規劃也許是機密可是要讓國防委員知道那現在呢因為價格壓低了我要增加數量是在原規劃裡面那個規劃是什麼那個戰力規劃是什麼我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據所以我看部長我們今天如果部長同意的話"},{"start":382.954,"end":402.304,"text":"這個部分我們是不是今天把報告完但是後續這個預算是繳回還是徵購是不是請國防部這個所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明否則今天處理的話我認為判斷的依據我沒辦法有科學的依據報委員 謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明"},{"start":406.926,"end":431.795,"text":"事實上這個也如委員剛剛的指導我們並不是因為有這樣子與預算上面編列的差價有60億要去把它買足買齊而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛專案的需求也完成了各式的武器部隊的編裝乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃那其中也包含到配附和編裝的調修這都是整體的規劃那個參謀長"},{"start":433.936,"end":453.688,"text":"這一塊因為我時間的關係我覺得應該要更說明更清楚因為你原來過來買這些搞不好明年你是要買中科院自己研製的類似彈簧刀東西嗎因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛就是說這筆錢多出來了是好事總比不夠好但多出來怎麼用可能要一個充分的說明我們再來處理可能會比較精準"},{"start":454.248,"end":482.82,"text":"對,這一點可能要因為涉及到一些我們相關的這個評估的細項我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密啦我會在這邊請你回答我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對我們使用單位就是軍種最有效的辦法那我們今天就先把報告案報告完然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明我們再跟每個委員再做一個詳細的說明這個我要用我諮詢時間講因為這不是我主席該講的但我作為一個委員要看這些預算我認為你們目前提供的"},{"start":484.46,"end":508.031,"text":"數據還沒辦法完整的說服我接下來我快速的問下一題這一題我其實想問很久就是我認為我們現在邊線比有三個並爭我很快速的講一下第一個我們根據國軍近五年的軍官士官士兵的邊線比其實平均值都往尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下"},{"start":508.971,"end":509.351,"text":"2.志願役士兵"},{"start":524.307,"end":549.609,"text":"擔任基層非常重要幹部就是軍校生我們軍校生你看我整理了第三張表軍校生從2020年到2024年任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400一直增加到1037這些人可能都排長這些人可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等就這樣子大量基層幹部大量的提早離開"},{"start":551.533,"end":569.142,"text":"主戰部隊的志願役士兵每四個有一個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於八成以下這三個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法"},{"start":570.041,"end":599.221,"text":"有,現在正在擬議中的就是軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的擬議中是適度的調升那另外就是這一個有關這個提高待遇的這個部分我們會針對相關的這個邊線比比較低的還有一些專業的部分我建議說除了薪資報酬以外應該還有其他的就是就業環境的因素可能一定要考量第二個我要提醒國防部"},{"start":600.521,"end":612.288,"text":"不能為了增加這個邊線筆比如我看最近有說要放寬不適服的回來我不是反對我的意思是說體能品德能力這三個不能打折"},{"start":613.626,"end":614.767,"text":"跟委員報告我們不釋乎的只限於那一個"},{"start":631.806,"end":635.289,"text":"有些不能打折,有些是因為家庭就這個"},{"start":649.124,"end":649.444,"text":"謝謝王定宇專委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":126,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長。"],["主席：顧部長、參謀長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案？"],["顧部長立雄：軍售。"],["王委員定宇：軍售案嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：因為我剛才看了一下你的報告，原始報價是向國會報的初步報價，後來確認要買的數量之後，軍種跟美國的國防部去核實議價的時候，價格降下來，但這個差別的比例相當高，差了將近百分之四十幾。我們一般在軍售案裡面，從發價、核價，到audit（稽核），都是美國軍方負責，但目前為止，之前的愛國者案、雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案，我們國人必須了解，軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一，我們如果採商售的話，核價、詢價、議價大概是我方要負責，稽核也是我方要負責嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：商售的部分，我想我們會慎重，因為我們都是複式的來源，所以我們會就這個複式來源來做比價，還有跟這些來源的性能等等，我們想我們應該會……"],["王委員定宇：因為一樣的型號有商規跟軍規，那個價格就天差地遠。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：我為什麼要提這一點，就算是軍售案，當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度，他們的稽核人員編制也比我們大太多，但是一件、兩件、三件這樣的情形下，面對軍售案的時候我們是買方，對於價格的核定跟事後的稽核，我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課，也就是不是他講多少就多少，否則這一次他降了，萬一他沒降呢？我們就變多花了百分之四十幾的價格去買一樣的裝備，你懂我意思嗎？這一次當然美方誠實的去稽核、核實價格，表示這個機制還是有效，但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效，有些東西還是要掌握在我方。","商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責，我們自己要就各方來源去比價，在軍售案，美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價，國會核可我們真的要買的數量的時候，他們的國防部以及軍種會提出來，這時候價格就會接近買價。所以我第一個建議是，我們部裡面或者戰規司要不要思考，我們對美方的軍售案，有關這些價格，我們至少要去監控它、要去審核它，我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法？"],["顧部長立雄：我想是不是先請戰規司？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，在過去，針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P＆A，也就是報價書或是初步報價為主，但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案，尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子，我們也已經跟美方達成共識，針對未來重要軍售案我們會提前做價格的預審，去了解目前一般的價格是多少，去精進價格的實務。"],["王委員定宇：商售你們都會去做這些功課，我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情，我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況，因為軍購案動輒都是幾十億的差額，影響的預算數很大，我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理，這裡面都是民脂民膏，我們希望用在對的地方。","第二個部分，現在有差價了，到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置？使用單位，也就是陸軍這邊要有一個數量的依據，我到底有多少戰力、這些有多少人要用、我要訓練多少人？不是說現在錢多出來了，我就多買500套，多500套要有500套的人，戰力的分布要在哪裡？我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到，就是說，今天你們這個報告案，我們國會面對兩個選擇，要嘛就是請你們照原數額買，因為原數額是經過戰力評估、相關的評估去購買的，多餘的費用我們就繳庫。另外一種情形是，既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了，你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說，我們原來就是錢不夠，所以才買了一半，後面要增加買。這個要很科學地告訴我們，而不是多多益善，部長，這邊請回答。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個，據我了解，本來這個案就不是只要買這樣的數量，我們只是依照國家財政的裕度先購買了這樣的量，這是第一點。第二點，我們還要再進行所謂的模式模擬，我們會對於整個作戰防衛的構想所需要的……"],["王委員定宇：部長，因為你們今天這一塊，像陳永康將軍是有經驗的人，比方說，原來我評估要買1,000枚，因為國家財政，我只買300枚，現在價格打六折了，我可以把原來1,000枚要達標的，我可以增加，這個也許可以說服委員，但這一塊我們今天沒有看到。"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分會後我們再提供一個詳細的……"],["王委員定宇：因為牽涉到今天報告案報告完這個預算的處理，我請部長思考看看，是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後，預算的部分我們再來處理？就是說我們可以一次處理，但是如果說明不清楚，容易導致……因為我原來可能要買這麼多，第一階段買多少，這牽涉到戰力的規劃，也許是機密，可是要讓國防委員知道。現在因為價格壓低了，我要增加數量，是在原規劃裡面，那個戰力規劃是什麼，我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據。所以如果部長同意的話，這個部分我們是不是今天把報告案報告完，但是後續這個預算是繳回還是增購，是不是請國防部所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明，否則今天處理的話，我認為在判斷的依據上，我沒辦法有科學的依據。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，謝謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明。事實上也如委員剛剛的指導，我們並不是因為有與預算上面編列的差價60億才要去把它買足、買齊，而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛作戰的需求，也完成了各式的武器、部隊的編裝，乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃，其中也包含到配付和編裝的調修，這都是整體的規劃……"],["王委員定宇：參謀長，這一塊，因為我時間的關係，我覺得應該要說明得更清楚……"],["陳參謀長建義：是，我們會下去跟委員說明跟報告。"],["王委員定宇：因為你原來規劃買這些，搞不好明年你是要買中科院自己研製的類似彈簧刀的東西，因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛！就是說，這筆錢多出來了是好事，總比不夠好，但多出來要怎麼用？可能要一個充分的說明，我們再來處理可能會比較精準。"],["顧部長立雄：對，這一點因為有涉及一些我們相關的評估細項……"],["王委員定宇：因為我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密，我不會在那邊請你回答，我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚，大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對使用單位，就是軍種最有效的辦法，我們今天就先把報告案報告完，然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明。"],["顧部長立雄：我們再跟每個委員做一個詳細的說明。"],["王委員定宇：這個我要用我的質詢時間講，因為這不是我主席該講的，但我作為一個委員要看這些預算，我認為你們目前提供的數據還沒辦法完整地說服我，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：接下來，我快速地問下一題，這題我其實想問很久了。我認為我們現在編現比有三個病徵，我很快速地講一下，第一個，根據國軍近5年的軍官、士官、士兵的編現比，其實平均值都往下降，尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下。第二個病徵是什麼？就是我們的主戰部隊，志願役士兵不適服的比例偏高，每4個就有1個幾乎要提早離開或者不留了。第三個，擔任基層非常重要幹部，就是軍校生，你看我整理的第3張表，軍校生從2020年到2024年，任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400人一直增加到1,037人，這些人可能是都排長，可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等。基層幹部大量地提早離開，主戰部隊的志願役士兵每4個就有1個離開，然後編現比幾乎都發生在主戰部隊，像戰車、砲兵等等，它的編現比都低於八成以下。這三個問題，我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法？"],["顧部長立雄：有，現在正在擬議中的就是，軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的調升，另外，有關提高待遇的部分，我們會針對相關編現比比較低的，還有一些專業的部分，我們會做一個……"],["王委員定宇：部長，因為我時間超過了，我建議說，除了薪資報酬以外，應該還有其他像是就業環境的因素，可能要一併考量。第二個，我要提醒國防部，不能為了增加編現比，比方說，我看最近有提到要放寬不適服的回來，我不是反對，我的意思是，體能、品德、能力這三個不能打折，不適服有很多種樣態，不適服有品德問題的、有家庭因素的、有個人生涯規劃的、有身體不行的，所以針對不適服可以回任，我會建議國防部不要一句話說不適服5年內都可以回來……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們不適服的只限於陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例第十五條第一項第十款，那個第十款講的是指他自己申請提前退役，而沒有任何品德操守的問題，就是我們只限於……"],["王委員定宇：對，就是說有些不能打折，有些是因為家庭就只有這個孩子……"],["顧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112年要去法國考察違憲審查。113年要去法國考察違憲審查。到今年114年繼續院長率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度95萬8千元。"},{"start":119.261,"end":146.342,"text":"我看到什麼現象錢越來越多啊都是要去法國啊都是要去法國考察違憲審查連續三年啊直接複製貼上結果你今天在這邊跟大家講用臨機預算我看不懂啊這不是臨機預算啊臨機預算的精神絕對不是這樣啊現在司法院已經墮落到什麼是複製貼上預算啊"},{"start":148.809,"end":161.644,"text":"所以我才說你們有沒有把預算書的編列當一回事嘛還是複製貼上就好了還是反正上面寫的東西立法委員不會看這些立法委員都是閉著眼睛在審預算"},{"start":164.99,"end":183.313,"text":"舉手表決就通過了沒有人在看預算書啊也沒有人會去對去年編了什麼前年編了什麼今年編的跟去年編的跟前年編的文字一模一樣啊副秘書長這樣子的預算書編列你認為負責任嗎跟委員報告那當然那憲法法庭他需要的由大法官們他們去做斟酌那那"},{"start":195.099,"end":214.871,"text":"負哪一個國家去考察違憲,那是由大法官他們認為需要的,這些金額並不相同。」我先停一下啦,一樣一樣來講啦,所以你認為從司法院的觀點,連續三年要去法國考察違憲審查是大法官的錯?"},{"start":215.791,"end":230.982,"text":"他們報上來的需求每一年院長都一定要去法國一次因為法國違憲審查制度變動得太劇烈了如果沒有每年去法國我國沒有辦法精準地掌握法國違憲審查制度的變動是這樣嗎?我只問一件事預算書的這個文字是誰寫的?是誰負責寫的?"},{"start":246.372,"end":257.24,"text":"這個預算書送出來之前你看過沒有?啊你看了以後都沒有發現都複製貼上還是反正去年可以複製貼上今年複製貼上也沒有關係年年複製推上可以這樣幹喔太難看了啦連我們在小學教小學生都講不要抄啊"},{"start":277.878,"end":303.742,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年"},{"start":309.793,"end":330.592,"text":"公務委員報告依照我們業務廳的這個整理114萬左右。只有114萬?好,沒有關係喔。會後,會後,把那114萬錢怎麼花的?具體核銷的項目送來我辦公室可以嗎?可以。好,去了114萬以後覺得成效如何?"},{"start":332.912,"end":335.295,"text":"所以成效如何?你還是沒有回答問題啊?回來啦回來啦"},{"start":352.819,"end":355.922,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":369.804,"end":388.712,"text":"審理法律審議法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":400.165,"end":411.594,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":425.276,"end":449.67,"text":"事後跟相關這些國家聯絡當初所預計的不見得方便我們就這樣所以說因為情勢的這個轉變都有可能這種情勢不是只有沒有關係啦今天你可以站在這邊好好的解釋你的解釋台灣的公民能不能夠接受大家心裡都有一把尺去了九天九天的考察行程只有三天有公務這個行程你會不會覺得很充實"},{"start":455.418,"end":459.379,"text":"審查司法院審理法草案案件事件審理法草案案件事件"},{"start":475.905,"end":504.705,"text":"公務委員報告那個考察不同的地方中間會考到假日會有會有行程會有路程這些的沒有關係啊因為這些報告吼你們通常放在司法院的網站但會去看的人很少啦但是我們當立法委員要監督我就一定要上去看嘛我看完的結果是這樣啊九天的出國考察行程啊上面真的有公務的三天啊這到底是考察還是旅遊啊"},{"start":505.663,"end":523.026,"text":"同樣交給社會來加以判斷。」然後我看完了這個報告以後,說你們要借鏡捷克憲法法院的運作方式嗎?來,借鏡的捷克憲法法院的運作方式得到最大的心得是什麼?"},{"start":524.997,"end":541.738,"text":"捷克憲法法庭的運作方式我們花了納稅人這些錢也好幾個大法官去考察了回來以後對我國最有啟示最有釋說的點是什麼司法院有人可以說明嗎還是因為你們都沒去所以也沒人可以說明"},{"start":546.442,"end":567.615,"text":"公務員報告,我們這一些報告都在網站上面有。所以呢只要報告丟到網站,我就簡單請教一件事,這個報告你們真的有人讀嗎?真的有人讀嗎?公務員報告當然我本身是沒有。當然我知道你人多事忙啦,來請那個廳長。"},{"start":569.83,"end":585.288,"text":"那個主管廳的廳長你有看過嗎?報告委員有。你有看過嗎?是。你看完了以後覺得對我國最大的啟示是什麼?跟委員報告,捷克憲法法院跟我國一樣,他的憲法法院一樣有15個大法官。一樣都有15個大法官嗎?是。好!"},{"start":587.079,"end":614.222,"text":"在這個報告裡面有沒有說明啊捷克憲法法院15名大法官如果要做決定的話要作為現審查的宣告的話最低出席人數是多少我如果沒有記錯的話是三分之二這報告有寫嗎我如果沒有記錯的話應該有提沒有完全沒有一個字都沒有而且捷克的憲法法院法是寫三分之二嗎"},{"start":616.175,"end":632.922,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":642.466,"end":643.266,"text":"他們來我們花多少錢?他們來我們花多少錢?來看一下齁"},{"start":669.622,"end":698.838,"text":"捷克憲法法院15位大法官來看一下你們附件裡面有的捷克憲法法院法最低出席人數10個人啊就是我剛剛說的三分之二做違憲的宣告要幾個人?最少要幾個人?九位對啊你們去考察回來了最重要的啟示應該去思考啊人家是直接寫人數欸他是不是直接寫人數?是"},{"start":701.204,"end":725.854,"text":"和我國的制度有何異同?你真的要處理的是處理這種事情嗎?當然不一樣啊!所以你們才說服人家說服國民有必要讓你們出去考察嗎?結果考察回來寫這種考察報告能看喔?真的能看喔?"},{"start":727.793,"end":752.72,"text":"我今天在這邊質詢我一定對我質詢的內容負責啊我也邀請啊所有對捷克憲法法院大家有興趣的人上去看一下我們司法院花的納稅人出去寫的考察報告看完了以後再冷靜的思考啊這個考察到底對我們對捷克憲法法院的運作啊產生了什麼啟示有什麼樣子的認識"},{"start":754.605,"end":765.919,"text":"主席站起來了,沒有關係啊。司法院其他的部分,我們等到預算審查的時候,我會藉由預算提案具體表明我的立場。」"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時19分）謝謝主席，有請副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：副秘書長好。剛剛你在報告司法院預算的時候，我聽到你說了「零基預算」這個詞，但我其實嚇了一大跳。司法院在立法院進行預算報告的時候說你們採取零基預算的精神，我真的不曉得該怎麼形容，你們司法院在編預算的時候有認真編嗎？真的有認真編嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：還是把預算書當成寫作文比賽一樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們當然不敢不認真編，各單位在報上來的時候，我們都會有一定的機制……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我就直接問具體的事情。因為這樣講太抽象了，法律人在進行評論的時候要以事實為基礎。司法院歷年派員出國計畫，112年（兩年前）院長率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度等事項經費為85萬1,000元；113年院長率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度等事項經費86萬4,000元。112年去法國考察違憲審查，113年又去法國考察違憲審查，到114年院長繼續率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度95萬8,000元。","我看到什麼現象？錢愈來愈多啊！都是要去法國，都是要去法國考察違憲審查，連續3年直接複製貼上，結果你今天在這邊跟大家講用「零基預算」。我看不懂，因為這不是零基預算，零基預算的精神絕對不是這樣，現在司法院已經墮落到怎麼樣？是複製貼上預算了！所以我才說你們有沒有把預算書的編列當一回事，還是複製貼上就好了，還是反正上面寫的東西立法委員不會看？這些立法委員都是閉著眼睛在審預算的，舉手表決就通過了，沒有人在看預算書，也沒有人會去對去年編了什麼、前年編了什麼。今年編的跟去年編的，跟前年編的文字一模一樣。副秘書長，這樣子的預算書編列你認為負責任嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然憲法法庭所需要的是由大法官們去斟酌，赴哪一個國家去考察違憲，是由大法官他們認為需要而決定，這些金額並不相同……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，一樣一樣來講啦！所以你認為從司法院的觀點，連續3年要去法國考察違憲審查，是大法官的錯？他們報上來的需求，每一年院長都一定要去法國一次，因為法國的違憲審查制度變動得太劇烈了，如果沒有每年去法國，我國就沒有辦法精準地掌握法國違憲審查制度的變動，是這樣嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，關於憲法法庭這部分，幕僚運作是不是可以由書記廳……"],["黃委員國昌：我只問一件事，預算書的這個文字是誰寫的？是誰負責寫的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：由我們相關的業務廳去擬定，當然會報到……"],["黃委員國昌：這個預算書送出來之前你看過沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然會看……"],["黃委員國昌：你看了以後都沒有發現是複製貼上的？還是反正去年都可以複製貼上，今年複製貼上也沒有關係？所以就年年複製貼上，可以這樣幹噢！太難看了啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：連我們在小學教小學生的時候都會講「不要抄」，今年抄去年的，去年抄前年的，反正你寫要去哪裡一點都不重要嘛！錢拿到手以後再說嘛！我為什麼這樣講？你們每一年的出國預算愈來愈高，上千萬我全部整理出來了，結果說要去法國也沒有去法國，而是去捷克。許宗力率了6人團去捷克，我只問第一件事情，花多少錢？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，依照我們業務廳的整理是114萬左右。"],["黃委員國昌：只有114萬嗎？沒有關係，會後把那114萬的錢怎麼花，具體核銷的項目送來我辦公室可以嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：去花了114萬以後覺得成效如何？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想大法官去考察這些相關國家的憲法制度，將來當然都會反映到他們的釋憲實務上作為參酌，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：所以成效如何？你還是沒有回答問題啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們認為成效應該可以達到期待吧。"],["黃委員國昌：成效可以達到期待？來、來、來！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我們一樣、一樣繼續往下面看，都不要講空的，成效有沒有達到期待，看了就知道。我既然要監督、要上來質詢，我一定負責任地把你們出國的考察報告全部都拜讀完了。我們來看看具體的成效是什麼，第一個，我看到預算書裡面根本沒有要赴捷克，你們的會後說明是，當初要編去法國，到後來覺得去捷克比較好，所以後來就去捷克了。因為可能是前面的經驗，讓你們養成了一個很壞的習慣，什麼很壞的習慣？就是預算書怎麼寫，一點都不重要，一點都不重要，因為事後可以自己變更。然後你們上面寫什麼？「簽奉核可變更計畫」，這是你們回給我的公文內容。這個「簽奉核可變更計畫」是誰核可？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是院長核可，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：所以院長核可他自己的計畫變更就對了？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為事後跟這些相關的國家聯絡，當初所預計的不見得方便，所以因為情事的轉變，都有可能有這種情形，不是只有書記廳。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天你可以站在這邊好好地解釋，對於你的解釋，臺灣的公民能不能接受，大家心裡都有一把尺。去了9天，9天的考察行程，只有3天有公務，這個行程你會不會覺得很充實？充實感夠不夠？9天的頭1天、後1天要旅行，會辛苦，扣掉1天沒關係，7天只剩下3天有公務，這是考察行程，還是旅遊行程？坐飛機先坐到維也納去，再從維也納搭火車過去捷克。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，考察不同的地方中間會卡到假日，會有行程、路程這些……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為這些報告你們通常放在司法院的網站，但會去看的人很少，不過我們當立法委員要監督，我就一定要上去看，我看完的結果是這樣：9天的出國考察行程，上面真的有公務的是3天，這到底是考察，還是旅遊？一樣，交給社會加以判斷。","我看完了這個報告以後，你們說要借鏡捷克憲法法院的運作方式，借鏡了捷克憲法法院的運作方式，得到最大的心得是什麼？捷克憲法法院的運作方式，我們花了納稅人這些錢，有好幾個大法官去考察了，回來以後對我國最有啟示、最有「示唆」的點是什麼？司法院有人可以說明嗎？還是因為你們都沒去，所以也沒人可以說明？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們這些報告都在網站上面有，主秘也沒有提醒……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，我就簡單請教一件事，這個報告你們真的有人讀嗎？真的有人讀嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然，我本身是沒有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：當然，我知道你人多事忙。請問主管廳的廳長，你有看過嗎？"],["楊廳長皓清：報告委員，有。"],["黃委員國昌：你有看過嘛？"],["楊廳長皓清：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你看完了以後，覺得對我國最大的啟示是什麼？"],["楊廳長皓清：跟委員報告，捷克憲法法院跟我國一樣有15個大法官……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣都有15個大法官嘛。"],["楊廳長皓清：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好。在這個報告裡面有沒有說明，捷克憲法法院15名大法官如果要做決定的話，要做違憲審查的宣告的話，最低出席人數是多少？"],["楊廳長皓清：我如果沒有記錯的話，是三分之二。"],["黃委員國昌：這報告有寫嗎？"],["楊廳長皓清：我如果沒有記錯的話，應該有提。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，完全沒有！一個字都沒有！"],["楊廳長皓清：是，不好意思。"],["黃委員國昌：而且捷克的憲法法院法是寫三分之二嗎？是寫三分之二嗎？"],["楊廳長皓清：就我的理解是這樣，如果有錯誤的部分，我會後再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個我就跟你講，所以我為什麼說去了捷克憲法法院回來以後，內容很空洞啊……"],["楊廳長皓清：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：28頁的出國報告，26頁是行程摘要，未來展望只有半頁，至於其他相關的法規，報告裡面沒有寫，全部在附件。"],["楊廳長皓清：報告委員，我可以跟委員報告一件事嗎？這個在司法外交上是一個很大的突破，因為112年院長率團去以後，在今年5月捷克憲法法院帶領著院長跟兩位大法官……"],["黃委員國昌：他們來，我們花多少錢？"],["楊廳長皓清：這個部分會後我們會提供給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：他們來，我們花多少錢？"],["楊廳長皓清：他們的機票完全自付，我們幫他們出住宿費及內陸交通費，完全都在國際法學交流基金會裡面來支出。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下，捷克憲法法院15位大法官，你們附件裡面有附捷克憲法法院法，最低出席人數是10個人。"],["楊廳長皓清：就是我剛剛說的三分之二。"],["黃委員國昌：做違憲的宣告要幾個人？最少要幾個人？"],["楊廳長皓清：9位。"],["黃委員國昌：對呀！你們去考察回來了，最重要的啟示應該去思考啊，人家是直接寫人數。它是不是直接寫人數？"],["楊廳長皓清：是。"],["黃委員國昌：跟我國的制度有何異同？你真的要處理的是處理這種事情嘛！"],["楊廳長皓清：我想每個國家大法官任命的方式、來源不同……"],["黃委員國昌：當然不一樣啊！"],["楊廳長皓清：是，所以在比較的時候我們……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們才說服人家、說服國民有必要讓你們出去考察，結果考察回來寫這種考察報告，能看喔？真的能看喔？我今天在這邊質詢，我一定對我質詢的內容負責，我也邀請所有對捷克憲法法院有興趣的人，上去看一下司法院花了納稅人的錢出去所寫的考察報告，看完了以後再冷靜地思考，這個考察到底讓我們對捷克憲法法院的運作產生了什麼啟示？有什麼樣子的認識？主席站起來了，沒有關係，司法院其他的部分，等到預算審查的時候，我會藉由預算提案具體表明我的立場。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝黃副秘書長。","由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，現在先確定議事錄。請問各位，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。","接下來我們邀請陳委員俊宇詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","翁曉玲","林淑芬","羅智強","沈發惠","謝龍介"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查司法院函送財團\n法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案；三、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草\n案」案；四、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案【第一、二案僅\n進行詢答；第三、四案僅宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"11310702_00002"}}},{"id":"157416","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157416","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c7419e37a12585dcc09bf47e6092a313d3d992f522713f799f8a478bf4b7292ce505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:22:32 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謝謝 謝謝各位部長 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user）這個最重要的部分，我提醒部長，這個部分我們大家要精進、要努力。請部長回答。"],["顧部長立雄：是，就這個部分，因為它知會國會的金額跟原來發價書後面的金額確實差距過大，所以在當時我們就已經要求美方要說明這個價差的原因，剛剛委員也指導了，我們應該要要求分項做詳細的說明，這個部分最後當然有大幅的降低，顯示當時美國在做知會國會的這個金額的時候……以後我們應該也會希望他在知會國會金額的這一塊能夠做一個精進，不然確實會引起一些質疑，我想我們會再跟美方就知會國會的金額這個部分，應該要在知會國會之前就應該要做一個相當的精算。"],["陳委員永康：另外，我們希望戰規司跟國防採購室在這個迴路的環節過程中間要協助軍種，尤其是配合美國的駐美軍事代表團的軍售小組，在這個過程中間如果有產生任何數量上或是價錢上的誤差要即時回饋，讓我們這邊有預應的時間。司長，您這邊是不是可以做一個補充說明？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，誠如委員剛剛所指導，事實上這個案子從一開始執行，一直到知會國會發現價差過大，戰規司都是全程參與，同時也協助軍種，後續我們還是會繼續協助軍種，在接裝以及後續的申購規劃上面去做一個最完善的安排。"],["陳委員永康：在採購裝備上，另外包括人員訓練、在細項裡面的準則教範，我們希望料配件能夠先獲得，準則教範能夠提早中文化，合格的訓練人員及早回來，這樣子裝備到的時候，戰力可以發揮。參謀長，您這邊做一下說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，如您的指導，有關於不管是赴美訓練或是在臺協訓還有相關準則的獲得，也就是現在在跟美方簽約的時候，我們是援例依據以往軍購案的經驗，我們正在管辦，也謝謝委員的指教。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝各位，部長，謝謝你。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員美玲代）：謝謝陳永康委員。有請王定宇召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-17","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳冠廷","黃仁","王鴻薇","林憶君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","蘇清泉"],"page_start":141,"meetingDate":["2024-11-25"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00009"}}},{"id":"157415","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157415","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/55b9778b62440c747141c633f45751b4bf47e6092a313d3d992f522713f799f87766c67842c2092a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:13:26 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顧部長剛剛我聽到這個國防部的這個專案報告裏面有提到有關於這個獵鴞專案一開始我們是按照美方的這個初估報價我們是先行編列了這個60多億美元的這個預算然後這個預算也在112年的2月3度通過可是到了113年的6月美方在進行智慧國會程序的時候公告的金額是115億餘元"},{"start":41.692,"end":59.449,"text":"當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候我們有沒有去反應怎麼會差距這麼大因為這不是幾千萬美金不是幾億美金而是幾十億美金的這個差價這部分我們當初有去跟他們交涉嗎這部分有沒有雖然說到後來我們在113年8月份的時候呢他的這個發價書是55億美元"},{"start":66.115,"end":70.257,"text":"前前後後都是幾十億的落差請問這部分我們當初接到這個115億的這個公告的時候我們沒有任何反應說怎麼會差這麼多嗎跟委員報告有的我們在這個原來取得的初估報價就像剛剛委員所講的是60億"},{"start":89.336,"end":111.315,"text":"後來美國安和局在6月19日進行智慧國會的時候金額變成高達115億元我們就向美方要求說明價差的原因當初原因是什麼我在報數裡面沒看到那美方是表示說這個價格是綜合計算各項支出的一個最高的一個價格仍有一個下調的空間但是我們"},{"start":111.955,"end":128.315,"text":"我們在編預算的時候為了避免就是說如果簽約軍不足跟為了要預認後續預算的需求我們就先啟動了這個整規數的修訂程序來上市部長我想請教就是美方的說法您是說他是怎麼樣還是說這是因為"},{"start":129.872,"end":130.593,"text":"報告委員,站位式市長黃啟在這邊向委員做報告"},{"start":148.618,"end":158.266,"text":"我們在建案的時候所獲得的出估報價基本上是只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價生產成本那在知會國會前"},{"start":160.458,"end":179.831,"text":"安和局他會針對這個案子所有的相關的成本包含通膨計價未來的各項變動因素專案管理費等等多項的這個計算價格之後去做一個最高的估價值因為美方針對軍購的部分一向是採取這個"},{"start":182.028,"end":209.265,"text":"不賺不賠不討價還價的這個原則所以他一定會把這個價格拉到最高那這個部分我們也在後續的時候向美方瞭解說因廠商出估報價的時候是不是有高估的狀況或是有其他的因素那當然美方並沒有針對這個做說明大家外界可能說剛發生雷神案所以大家會聯想會不會是說這些公司可能向美國政府有高個報價"},{"start":210.606,"end":216.271,"text":"所以我們後續我們後續就是同步也跟美方就爭取跟現在就是要跟其他國也要採購的國家來爭取說美方跟他其他國家共同預約"},{"start":233.607,"end":257.859,"text":"那這樣希望就能夠因為他會有一個研發的一個價格尤其RTS600他是新的所以他會放入研發的這個價格那如果說這個爭取的共同意願這個採購數量大了以後這個價格就會下降那我們另外就是說那個各項的這種分類的部分我們要求每一個都要精算那所以後來這個美方表示就是說要等到這個"},{"start":260.512,"end":270.782,"text":"在九月份完成簽約前的時候然後美方在八月的時候向我們提交一個正式的發價數的時候那個時候金額已經降到了五十五億因為它這個差價太大了幾十億因為當初我們這個會編列六十多億的這個預算其實也是來自於美方的出戶報價也是來自於美方"},{"start":282.754,"end":282.874,"text":"一而一之"},{"start":313.803,"end":341.068,"text":"報告委員這個過去智慧國會價格高出我們原本預框預算的這個情況還不少那其中在之前最有名的一個例子是M1A2戰車的例子他當初我們編列的預算是405億智慧國會價格是600億那其他幾個案子也有類似的這個狀況但是在後面經過跟美方充分協調之後我們都在合理的範圍之內把價格給攤下來"},{"start":342.93,"end":344.531,"text":"我看到之前提供的資料"},{"start":370.294,"end":370.474,"text":"這部分要說明一下"},{"start":390.138,"end":405.065,"text":"臺灣道300跟商用的這個無人機差別在哪?我想分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是說我們現在買的臺灣道300是block兩棟應該是比原來的那個腰棟要來得更進一步一點那它的滯空時間是比較長"},{"start":406.786,"end":422.835,"text":"主要是人員灑藏型燃料還有散灑的碎片所以我們這一次如果說大約能夠通過的話我們要徵購的主要不是在300我們主要要徵購的是600這一個緩端的案例就是多出來的這個預算我們就是要徵購600可是台灣到300你也買了685套啊本來就是計畫當中的嘛"},{"start":427.518,"end":435.566,"text":"主要大家之前一直在看到一些評論就是說彈簧到300其實沒有什麼這部分是加強說明一下這個部分我們600的部分因為現在只有291套所以我們認為按照我們現在這個兵退跟模式模擬的結果這291套是不夠所以我們認為至少應該還要再增購"},{"start":450.422,"end":465.543,"text":"事實上要簽假以上那在這一次的話我們能夠多少的話我們再跟美方再來洽談看看那看看每一假現在是多少那在大院如果允許的範圍之內我們再跟美方就這個談到600的這個部分"},{"start":467.545,"end":467.565,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":497.176,"end":497.356,"text":"羅美玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":73,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時13分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：顧部長，剛剛我聽到國防部專案報告裡面提到關於獵鴞專案，一開始我們是按照美方的初步報價，先行編列了六十多億元的預算，然後這個預算也在112年2月三讀通過；可是到了113年6月，美方在進行知會國會程序的時候，公告的金額是一百一十五億餘元。當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候，有沒有去反映怎麼會差距這麼大？因為這不是幾千萬，不是幾億，而是幾十億的差價，這部分我們當初有沒有去跟他們交涉？雖然後來在113年8月份的時候，它的發價書是55億元，可是這前前後後都是幾十億的落差。請問我們當初接到這個115億的公告的時候，有沒有任何反映說怎麼會差這麼多？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，有的，我們原來取得的初步報價，就像剛剛委員所講的是六十億餘元，後來美國安合局在6月19號進行知會國會的時候，金額變成高達115億元，我們就向美方要求說明價差的原因……"],["羅委員美玲：當初原因是什麼，我在這個報告書裡面沒看到。"],["顧部長立雄：美方是表示，這個價格是綜合計算各項支出後一個最高的價格，仍有下調的空間，但是我們在編預算的時候，為了避免如果簽約金不足，跟為了預應後續預算的需求，我們就先啟動了整規書的修訂程序來……"],["羅委員美玲：部長，我想請教一下美方的說法。他說這是因為……美方的說法是什麼？為什麼會有這麼大的差異？因為我們有去詢問……"],["顧部長立雄：因為他們是綜合計算各項支出……"],["羅委員美玲：綜合計算？"],["顧部長立雄：請戰規司說明。"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，戰規司司長黃文啓在這邊向委員報告。我們在建案時所獲得的初估報價，基本上只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價……"],["羅委員美玲：生產成本？"],["黃司長文啓：在知會國會前，安合局會針對這個案子所有的相關成本，包含通膨計價、未來的各項變動因素、專案管理費等等多項計算價格之後，去做最高的估價值。因為美方針對軍購一向採取不賺、不賠、不討價還價的原則，所以一定會把價格拉到最高。對這部分，我們後續也有向美方進行了解，看看廠商初估報價時是不是有高估的狀況，或有其他的因素，但美方並沒有針對這點做說明。"],["羅委員美玲：對，因為剛剛發生雷神案，所以外界會聯想這些公司會不會有向美國政府高額報價的問題存在。"],["黃司長文啓：這是他們的計算方式，不是只有單純的報價問題。"],["羅委員美玲：而且細節部分其實也沒有很清楚告知就是了？"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們後續同步跟美方爭取，希望與其他也要採購的國家共同議約，這樣能夠……因為會有研發價格，尤其ALTIUS-600是新的，所以會放入研發價格。如果能爭取到共同議約，採購數量大了以後，價格就會下降，另外，各項分類的部分我們要求每一個都要精算，所以後來在9月份完成簽約前，美方在8月向我們提交正式發價書，那時候金額已經降到55億元。"],["羅委員美玲：因為差價太大了，幾十億！當初我們編列六十多億的預算，其實也是來自於美方的初步報價。後續他們在知會國會程序裡公告的金額又拉到115億，我們會覺得雖然都是來自美方，可是金額實在差距太大！所以會啟人疑竇，為什麼當中會有這麼大的差距？我本來想說今天在報告書會看到比較詳細的說明，但到目前為止，我們還是覺得一頭霧水。過去曾經發生過類似這樣子的問題嗎？過去在軍購時，有發生過金額差距這麼大的問題嗎？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，過去知會國會價格高出我們原本預匡預算情況的還不少……"],["羅委員美玲：還不少？可是金額這麼大……"],["黃司長文啓：之前最有名是M1A2戰車的例子。當初我們編列的預算是405億，知會國會價格是600億，其他幾個案子也有類似狀況。但後續經與美方充分協調之後，我們都在合理的範圍內把價格談下來。"],["羅委員美玲：再來我想請教，這次獵鴞專案裡我們購入了685套的彈簧刀300跟291套的ALTIUS-600M，對不對？之前我有看到一些報導，也就是對彈簧刀300其實有很多疑慮。因為它的重量很輕，從之前你們所提供的資料來看，彈簧刀300因為重量很輕，以攻擊低防護、高價值的目標為主，之前有人講為什麼要買彈簧刀300？價格也不便宜，為什麼不在商用無人機上裝小型炸彈當作自殺機就可以了，而且經濟實惠？是這樣子嗎？這部分要說明一下嗎？到底彈簧刀300跟商用無人機差別在那裡？"],["顧部長立雄：我想分幾點跟委員報告，我們現在買的彈簧刀300是Blk20，比原來的Blk10來得更進一步一點，它的滯空時間比較長，而且主要是人員殺傷型的，還有散灑的碎片。如果這次大院能夠通過的話，我們要增購的主要不是300，我們主要要增購的是600反裝甲型的……"],["羅委員美玲：所以多出來的預算就是要增購600？可是彈簧刀300也買了685套，本來就是在計畫當中……"],["顧部長立雄：對……"],["羅委員美玲：之前大家一直看到一些評論說，彈簧刀300其實沒有什麼用，這部分可否加強說明一下？"],["顧部長立雄：600的部分現在只有291套，按照兵推跟模式模擬結果來說，這291套是不夠的，所以我們認為應該還要再增購千架以上。至於這一次能有多少？我們再來跟美方洽談，看看每一架現在是多少，並在大院允許範圍內，我們再跟美方就彈簧刀600驗證在我們防衛作戰需求上反裝甲型……特別是反裝甲型無人機，我們再來洽談增購……"],["羅委員美玲：我理解你們要增加彈簧刀600的原因，這個我知道。目前這部分是即偵即攻，比起彈簧刀300，攻擊目標是比較大的……"],["顧部長立雄：滯空時間也比較久。"],["羅委員美玲：我剛才一直提到彈簧刀300，大家一直覺得好像買了也沒用，但我覺得你們對這部分沒有多做說明，所以甚至有人說商用無人機就可以代替了，為什麼要買彈簧刀300？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案。"},{"start":1608.684,"end":1619.311,"text":"報告委員會出席委員7人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會。好現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1620.905,"end":1642.8,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議一事錄,時間中華民國113年11月21日星期四上午9時至下午1時31分,地點本院紅樓302會議室,出席委員黃委員國昌等12人,列席委員葉委員袁芝等15人,列席官員法務部部長鄭明謙等人,主席吳釗吉委員鍾憲。"},{"start":1645.1,"end":1670.356,"text":"報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定。二、邀請司法院保護部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具及打詐司法。"},{"start":1670.996,"end":1692.279,"text":"施行後相關執法及配套措施進度與具體成效之檢討,進行專題報告並備質詢。」本次會委員黃國昌等19人提出質詢。委員副坤祺提出書面質詢。決定一、報告集群答完畢。二、委員質詢時要求提出相關資料或以書面答覆者。請相關機關警訴送交個別委員及本會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1697.989,"end":1722.636,"text":"稍後人數足了我們再來確認議事錄接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員黃委員郭昌歡迎您接著介紹應邀列席官員今天人比較多首先是司法院黃林倫副秘書長憲法法庭書記廳楊浩清廳長"},{"start":1726.325,"end":1746.18,"text":"民事廳周梅芳廳長、刑事廳李大任廳長、刑事訴訟及懲戒廳陳怡怡廳長、少年及家事廳鍾玲廳長、司法行政廳高玉順廳長、秘書處楊思璇處長、公共關係處劉格倫處長、"},{"start":1756.263,"end":1770.989,"text":"新聞及法治宣導處陳庭裕處長資訊處何君豪處長參事室主任陳惠美參事人事處陳美彤處長統計處陳敏處長"},{"start":1785.541,"end":1811.106,"text":"鄭豐署、林鴻松署長快計署、楊順成署長最高法院、高孟勳院長最高行政法院、吳東都院長懲戒法院、林輝煌院長法官學院、張申興院長"},{"start":1814.206,"end":1837.275,"text":"台北高等行政法院侯東生院長、台中高等行政法院沈應南院長、高雄高等行政法院蘇秋金院長、智慧財產及商業法院陳俊畢院長、台灣高等法院高金志院長、"},{"start":1840.438,"end":1866.776,"text":"台灣高等法院台中分院陳賢慧院長台灣高等法院台南分院黃瑞華院長台灣高等法院高雄分院簡社嬌院長台灣高等法院花蓮分院陳珍珍院長福建高等法院金門分院李文賢院長"},{"start":1870.304,"end":1894.893,"text":"臺灣臺北地方法院王梅英院長臺灣士林地方法院彭信明院長臺灣新北地方法院許世峰院長臺灣桃園地方法院黃立雲院長臺灣新竹地方法院梁育芬院長"},{"start":1897.145,"end":1923.95,"text":"台灣苗栗地方法院王漢章院長,歡迎。台灣台中地方法院邱志平院長,歡迎。台灣南投地方法院王邁洋院長,歡迎。台灣彰化地方法院陳玉秀院長,歡迎。台灣雲林地方法院,因為院長請假,是由王子榮行政庭長,謝謝。"},{"start":1926.288,"end":1954.781,"text":"台灣嘉義地方法院陳宏能院長台灣台南地方法院沈陽仁院長台灣橋頭地方法院寧欣院長台灣高雄地方法院蔡國欽院長台灣屏東地方法院李兆彥院長台灣台東地方法院張宏傑院長"},{"start":1957.971,"end":1986,"text":"臺灣花蓮地方法院蕭映麗院長臺灣宜蘭地方法院莊申淵院長臺灣基隆地方法院陳雅琳院長臺灣澎湖地方法院楊國金院長臺灣高雄少年級家事法院圖秀琳院長福建金門地方法院陳蓮發院長"},{"start":1989.858,"end":2010.458,"text":"福建連江地方法院游文科院長 財團法人法律扶助基金會陳碧玉董事長財團法人法律扶助基金會周漢威執行長行政院主席總處黃子漢專門委員"},{"start":2014.755,"end":2024.995,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":2031.478,"end":2032.279,"text":"法部問條文修正草案。」"},{"start":2062.383,"end":2084.687,"text":"本日會議程序討論事項,第一、二案審查司法院相關預算案,僅進行詢答。第三、四案法案僅宣讀提案條文,特此在作說明。另外,針對預算相關提案,請於12月2日中午12時前提出,於時不予受理。特別提醒大家。並請機關於提案處理前,"},{"start":2088.004,"end":2100.821,"text":"利用時間先與提案委員進行溝通協調必利後續審查。」好,現在進行司法院相關預算案之機關報告,發言時間5分鐘。請司法院副秘書長黃玲倫報告。請。"},{"start":2113.269,"end":2130.661,"text":"主席、各位委員、在座各位女士、各位先生、大家早。本人奉邀代表司法院及所屬各機關向各位委員報告司法院及所屬主管114年度收支預算案,在這邊跟委員表達感謝之意。"},{"start":2132.057,"end":2137.989,"text":"首先114年度司法院主管預算案稅務部分我們編列68億8229萬3千元"},{"start":2143.807,"end":2172.724,"text":"稅出部分包含本院捐助法律扶助基金會的預算在內我們編列了293億4928萬2千元那麼以上預算是因應各項業務推展所必須並配合施政的重點秉持臨機預算的精神通盤檢討原有業務計畫及擬定的新興施政計畫按輕重緩急優先順序編列而成那麼其中"},{"start":2174.082,"end":2183.428,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案件及司法案件及司法案件及司法案件及司法案件及司法案件及司法案件及司法案件及司法案件及司法案件及"},{"start":2203.877,"end":2232.39,"text":"持續規劃及籌備北部少年及家事法院事宜,並且督促所屬法院落實少年保護管束風險管理事項方案,回應社會上面要求強化少年司法的期待。」其實精神衛生法也修正了,那麼就強制住院改採專家參審新制,那這個部分的施行由司法院定制,那麼我們也在繼續進行相關的這些配套準備的這些工作。"},{"start":2233.675,"end":2238.845,"text":"其次我們要加強審判的專業化比如說"},{"start":2240.453,"end":2266.203,"text":"外界一直呼籲要加強國家安全及營業命令這些專庭的法官專業培訓這部分我們會積極進行另外我們也會嚴定國家安全詐欺的案件的良情參考指引並進一步研議是不是推動妥適良刑法然後產生一些比較有規範作用的這個這個基準那另外"},{"start":2267.25,"end":2285.17,"text":"我們為了要優化我們審判的這些這個環境那麼我們也會襲擊來推動訴訟案紛爭解決機制包括調解包括仲裁那麼依照司法改革國事會議的這個要求嚴定這個調解基本法"},{"start":2286.226,"end":2297.432,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":2308.397,"end":2331.373,"text":"華山司法園區的興建工程、新北地方法院、台灣高等法院台南分院以及台中地方法院的這些簽訂工程。另外也包括台灣高等法院興建的黨政大樓、高雄少年家事法院規劃成立調查保護大樓這一部分讓我們的社會環境更能符合親民的這些要求這部分我們會繼續來做。"},{"start":2332.674,"end":2353.185,"text":"另外,其實是關於說我們捐助法律扶助基金會部分114年度我們編列了捐助預算15億2072萬2000元那麼這個金額比113年雖然比較多但是我們主要的原因是因為我們預估明年度的這些法律扶助案件成長量"},{"start":2354.325,"end":2382.434,"text":"會導致成本增加約5812萬8千元。另外還要配合國民法官新制提升刑事辯護這個量能,大概需要約4115萬4千元。所以增加這預算都是有它的原因跟必要性。那麼其餘關於114年度施政計畫的重點跟預期績效以及對行政院加注意見的說明內容,請各位委員參照書面報告的資料,也請各位委員給我們指教跟支持。以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":2384.397,"end":2406.773,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來請財團法人法律扶助基金會董事長陳碧玉報告。主席、各位委員、各位在座的女士先生,大家早安。"},{"start":2408.188,"end":2427.374,"text":"今天我很榮幸可以代表法律扶助基金會就本會114年度工作計畫及收支預算提出業務報告,進行指教。本會113年度截至8月底提供了近12萬人次的各類型的法律扶助。"},{"start":2428.394,"end":2443.688,"text":"其中屬於訴訟代理、辯護或輔佐的案件超過了36,000件。如果以案件類型區分的話,刑事案件16,920件是最高的。接下來是民事案件13,762件。"},{"start":2448.112,"end":2472.826,"text":"家事案件4427件、占第三位。」多年來本會也受到勞動部、園民會及衛福部委託辦理的勞工、原住民以及身心障礙者法律扶助的工作專案。113年期也接受了內政部委託本會辦理的住宅租賃糾紛法律扶助的專案。"},{"start":2474.367,"end":2500.226,"text":"國民法官法審判制度於112年1月1日施行本會除辦理課程以提升律師的辦案智能提高、調高輔助律師的酬金以提高律師們接案的意願等措施外我們預計在114年成立刑事辯護中心在全台各地增加專職律師及助理"},{"start":2500.987,"end":2524.468,"text":"以快速累積訴訟的經驗,強化刑事被告的辯護權,辦理本會包括國法案件在內的弱勢刑事辯護輔助案件。行辯中心將結合專精刑事的外部律師,累積國法案件專業知識,著力以"},{"start":2525.729,"end":2553.784,"text":"輔助律師教育訓練之規劃以擴大國法案件的律師人才庫。」我們同樣的精神因為精神衛生法於111年12月14日修正通過其中重要的變更之一就是將所原來的強制住院審查改為法官保留那麼他的私勤日期將由司法院會同衛福部來共同決定那麼衛福部也在"},{"start":2554.404,"end":2573.599,"text":"也依據了同法62條委託本會辦理精神疾病嚴重病人與緊急安置期間之法律扶助業務,這業務已經經過本會董事會的同意,本會將積極地籌備以因應心智保障心智障礙者的權益。"},{"start":2575.031,"end":2591.117,"text":"本會114年度的預算系配合工作計劃編列收入及支出的部分均編列為新台幣16億9291萬4千元我們較上年度的預算是增加了新台幣4858"},{"start":2595.32,"end":2612.201,"text":"4,868萬1千元,主要是因為我們要成立行事辯護中心以及員工年度晉級的所需要。同樣的,我們114年度的基金編類新台幣500萬元,敬請各位委員指教也鼎力支持。謝謝。"},{"start":2616.405,"end":2630.068,"text":"好!機關報告發言完畢。相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄。現在開始進行詢答。本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘。非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘,並不再延長。上午10時30分截止發言登記。現在請登記第一位黃委員國常發言。"},{"start":2648.449,"end":2673.106,"text":"謝謝主席來有請副秘書長請黃副秘書長請委員好副秘書長好我剛剛你在報告司法院預算的時候我聽到你說了臨機預算這個詞我聽了其實嚇一大跳司法院在立法院進行預算報告的時候說你們採取臨機預算的精神"},{"start":2679.059,"end":2691.128,"text":"我真的不曉得該怎麼形容你們司法院在編預算的時候有認真編嗎?真的有認真編嗎?還是覺得把預算書當成是寫作文比賽一樣?"},{"start":2695.669,"end":2698.791,"text":"司法院第11屆第2會期司法院第11屆第2會期司法院第11屆第2會期"},{"start":2723.376,"end":2727.888,"text":"院長率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度等四項經費85萬1千元。」113年的"},{"start":2732.639,"end":2745.747,"text":"院長副院派率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度等四項經費86萬4千元。 112年要去法國考察違憲審查。113年要去法國考察違憲審查。到今年114年繼續院長率員赴法國考察違憲審查制度95萬8千元。"},{"start":2760.885,"end":2787.931,"text":"我看到什麼現象錢越來越多啊都是要去法國啊都是要去法國考察違憲審查連續三年啊直接複製貼上結果你今天在這邊跟大家講用臨機預算我看不懂啊這不是臨機預算啊臨機預算的精神絕對不是這樣啊現在司法院已經墮落到什麼是複製貼上預算啊"},{"start":2790.41,"end":2803.248,"text":"所以我才說你們有沒有把預算書的編列當一回事嘛還是複製貼上就好了還是反正上面寫的東西立法委員不會看這些立法委員都是閉著眼睛在審預算"},{"start":2806.591,"end":2824.939,"text":"舉手表決就通過了沒有人在看預算書啊也沒有人會去對去年編了什麼前年編了什麼今年編的跟去年編的跟前年編的文字一模一樣啊副秘書長這樣子的預算書編列你認為負責任嗎跟委員報告那當然那憲法法庭他需要的由大法官們他們去做斟酌那那"},{"start":2836.72,"end":2856.494,"text":"負哪一個國家去考察違憲,那是由大法官他們認為需要的,這些金額並不相同。」我先停一下啦,一樣一樣來講啦,所以你認為從司法院的觀點,連續三年要去法國考察違憲審查是大法官的錯?"},{"start":2857.415,"end":2884.7,"text":"他們報上來的需求每一年院長都一定要去法國一次因為法國違憲審查制度變動得太劇烈了如果沒有每年去法國我國沒有辦法精準地掌握法國違憲審查制度的變動是這樣嗎?跟委員報告那關於憲法法庭的這一部分的那幕僚運作是不是可以由書記我只問一件事預算書的這個文字是誰寫的?是誰負責寫的?"},{"start":2887.993,"end":2898.855,"text":"這個預算書送出來之前你看過沒有?你看了以後都沒有發現都複製貼上還是反正去年可以複製貼上今年複製貼上也沒有關係年年複製推上可以這樣幹喔太難看了啦連我們在小學教小學生都講不要抄啊"},{"start":2919.502,"end":2948.445,"text":"不要抄啊今年抄去年的去年抄前年的反正你寫要去哪裡一點都不重要嘛錢拿到手以後再說嘛我為什麼這樣講你們每一年喔出國預算越來越高上千萬我全部整理出來了結果說要去法國也沒去法國嘛去捷克許宗麗率了六人團去捷克來我只問第一件事情花多少錢"},{"start":2951.414,"end":2972.197,"text":"公務委員報告依照我們業務廳的這個整理114萬左右。只有114萬?好,沒有關係喔。會後,會後,把那114萬錢怎麼花的?具體核銷的項目,送來我辦公室可以嗎?可以。好,去了114萬以後覺得成效如何?"},{"start":2974.537,"end":2976.078,"text":"所以成效如何?你還是沒有回答問題啊?"},{"start":2994.44,"end":3015.068,"text":"成效可以達到期待。」好來來來,我們一樣一樣齁,繼續往下面看,都不要講空的啦。成效有沒有達到期待,看了就知道啦。我既然要監督,我要上來質詢,我一定負責任的。把你們出國考察報告,我一定全部都拜讀完了。"},{"start":3016.187,"end":3040.757,"text":"來我們來看看具體的成效是什麼第一個我看到預算書裡面根本沒有要去赴捷克嘛你們會後說明說當初是要邊去法國但後來覺得去捷克比較好所以後來就去捷克了那因為可能是前面的經驗啊讓你們養成了一個很壞的習慣什麼很壞的習慣我預算書怎麼寫一點都不重要"},{"start":3041.786,"end":3063.787,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法"},{"start":3066.88,"end":3091.432,"text":"事後跟相關這些國家聯絡當初所預計的不見得方便我們就這樣所以說因為情勢的這個轉變都有可能這種情勢不是只有那個沒有關係啦今天你可以站在這邊好好的解釋你的解釋台灣的公民能不能夠接受大家心裡都有一把尺啊去了九天啊九天的考察行程只有三天有公務啊這個行程你會不會覺得很充實啊"},{"start":3097.039,"end":3101.001,"text":"審查司法院審理法草案案件事件審理法草案案件事件"},{"start":3117.526,"end":3146.296,"text":"公務委員報告那個考察不同的地方中間會考到假日會有會有行程會有路程這些的沒有關係啊因為這些報告吼你們通常放在司法院的網站但會去看的人很少啦但是我們當立法委員要監督我就一定要上去看嘛我看完的結果是這樣啊九天的出國考察行程啊上面真的有公務的三天啊這到底是考察還是旅遊啊"},{"start":3147.284,"end":3164.647,"text":"同樣交給社會來加以判斷。」然後我看完了這個報告以後,說你們要借鏡捷克憲法法院的運作方式嘛。來,借鏡的捷克憲法法院的運作方式得到最大的心得是什麼?"},{"start":3166.601,"end":3183.36,"text":"捷克憲法法庭的運作方式我們花了納稅人這些錢也好幾個大法官去考察了回來以後對我國最有啟示最有釋說的點是什麼司法院有人可以說明嗎還是因為你們都沒去所以也沒人可以說明"},{"start":3188.043,"end":3213.021,"text":"跟委員報告我們這一些報告都在網站上面有所以只要報告丟到網站我就簡單請教一件事這個報告你們真的有人讀嗎?真的有人讀嗎?跟委員報告當然我本身是沒有讀當然我知道你人多事忙來請那個廳長那個主管廳的廳長你有看過嗎?"},{"start":3214.128,"end":3226.753,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會10年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會10年度審查司法院函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律"},{"start":3244.012,"end":3270.235,"text":"這報告有寫嗎?我如果沒有記錯的話應該有提沒有?完全沒有?是一個字都沒有?是而且捷克的憲法法院法是寫三分之二嗎?是寫三分之二嗎?這個就我的理解是這樣那如果有錯誤的部分第一個我就跟你講嘛所以我為什麼說去了捷克憲法法院回來以後那人很空洞啊"},{"start":3271.284,"end":3282.73,"text":"二十八頁的出國報告二十六頁是行程摘要未來展望只有半頁其他的什麼其他相關的法規報告裡面沒有寫全部在附件"},{"start":3284.087,"end":3284.887,"text":"他們來我們花多少錢?他們來我們花多少錢?來看一下齁"},{"start":3311.243,"end":3340.459,"text":"捷克憲法法院15位大法官來看一下你們附件裡面有的捷克憲法法院法最低出席人數10個人啊就是我剛剛說的三分之二做違憲的宣告要幾個人最少要幾個人九位對啊你們去考察回來了最重要的啟示應該去思考啊人家是直接寫人數欸他是不是直接寫人數是"},{"start":3342.825,"end":3367.478,"text":"和我國的制度有何異同?你真的要處理的是處理這種事情嗎?當然不一樣啊!所以你們才說服人家說服國民有必要讓你們出去考察嗎?結果考察回來寫這種考察報告能看喔?真的能看喔?"},{"start":3369.417,"end":3394.345,"text":"我今天在這邊質詢我一定對我質詢的內容負責啊我也邀請啊所有對捷克憲法法院大家有興趣的人上去看一下我們司法院花了納稅人出去寫的考察報告看完了以後再冷靜的思考啊這個考察到底對我們對捷克憲法法院的運作啊產生了什麼啟示有什麼樣子的認識"},{"start":3396.226,"end":3419.03,"text":"主席站起來了沒有關係啊司法院其他的部分司法院其他的部分我們等到預算審查的時候我會藉由預算提案具體表明我的立場謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝黃副秘書長由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯過遺漏沒有那我們議事錄確定"},{"start":3423.956,"end":3452.451,"text":"好接下來我們邀請陳委員俊宇詢答好謝謝主席那有請我們副秘書長請黃副秘書長副秘書長早還有我們在場各位列席的首長還有各位院長大家早"},{"start":3453.41,"end":3478.906,"text":"那我想首先我針對這個法律扶助基金會的這個運作現況和相關的議題來跟副秘長這個做討論那為了保障人民在憲法上的這個訴訟權還有平等權那法服扮演相當重要的角色平常我們在地方上接到民眾的陳情的時候也是希望能夠提供適當的法律諮詢的服務"},{"start":3479.827,"end":3499.148,"text":"如果是因為經濟條件弱勢而無力負擔訴訟費用可能就需要轉借這個法服但我們這個法服基金會在2004年成立至今在財源上還是高度依賴政府每年的這個預算有九成以上是政府捐助"},{"start":3500.029,"end":3517.407,"text":"司法院預助的預算也是逐年提升,而明年度司法院對於這個法服的捐助達到15.2億,比去年又增加了1億。那對於籌措自主裁員的部分,司法院和法服這邊有沒有研議新的方案?我想請教副秘"},{"start":3521.957,"end":3530.36,"text":"法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":3545.825,"end":3546.946,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案 案 。"},{"start":3569.948,"end":3572.089,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案。」"},{"start":3592.174,"end":3606.83,"text":"強制代理案件並沒有特別規定要審查那個資歷但是我們也是希望說法服接下來再碰到強制辯護的案件的時候還是能夠初步的去做橫著如果說這個被告並不是沒有"},{"start":3607.791,"end":3630.768,"text":"並不是沒有資歷的話,那可能可以優先考慮依照醫務辯護或者是由公設辯護人去做指引,真正符合法律扶助無資歷的這部分,再用法扶,這樣子才不會產生資源的排擠。另外關於提升律師如何接案的意願,合理調整法律扶助基金籌金這部分,去年"},{"start":3632.349,"end":3638.532,"text":"法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":3660.304,"end":3688.417,"text":"讓我們這些人民納稅的錢能夠用在刀口上。」好。那我們預算會逐年的成長可能有部分是因為擴大對象還有範圍增加了相關的案件量。雖然利益良善但還是要審慎將有限的資源發揮在輔助我們弱勢的個案上。尤其過去在經驗上除了有財力的人申請被輔助的人也不一定是被害人。"},{"start":3689.659,"end":3696.151,"text":"所以有關建立排富或是避免被濫用的這種機制,這部分我們司法院是不是有一個比較明確的一個規劃?"},{"start":3697.486,"end":3711.99,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於"},{"start":3726.834,"end":3728.035,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案案案"},{"start":3742.461,"end":3745.503,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金法律扶助基金法律扶助基金法律"},{"start":3759.913,"end":3762.294,"text":"法律扶助基金會審理法律扶助基金會審理法律扶助基金會"},{"start":3781.638,"end":3786.183,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案"},{"start":3803.22,"end":3827.518,"text":"好,那我們為了要增加這個律師接案的意願也考量到這個國民法官訴訟的這個時程和辯護的這種特殊性那我們也看到這個法服的對於國民法官法刑事的一審這個辯護案件的酬金基數有再次調整但對於非國民法官的這個案件給予律師的酬金似乎就未能跟著往上調"},{"start":3828.78,"end":3845.721,"text":"即便法服以公益性質為主,但參酌各法服律師的工作量和付出的薪金應該還是要有合理調整酬金的空間。請問目前有沒有研擬來調整這方面的方案?"},{"start":3846.904,"end":3862.596,"text":"跟委員報告,那這一部分當然法律扶助基金會持續跟司法院在座溝通。那麼一個,那個國民法官的這部分,因為國民法官律師之前接任國民法官的辯護這部分意願"},{"start":3863.757,"end":3868.862,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案：一、審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案。"},{"start":3886.497,"end":3891.241,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度"},{"start":3914.54,"end":3941.692,"text":"還是請我們司法院對於這個法府的財政能力有限的這個資源的合理運用審慎評估並且盡快的研擬出具體的可行方案真正能改善這些存在多年的問題讓我們法府得以穩健並永續的經營能夠長久作為弱勢民眾的一個保護另外我想請教就是關於這個少年級家事法庭的這個增設"},{"start":3943.332,"end":3962.987,"text":"以及專業辦案人力的部分有鑒於先前發生重大少年事件的時候社會上呼籲要盡快完善社會安全網更因應近年來少家案件的不斷增加需要成立北部少家法院來確保量能"},{"start":3963.827,"end":3986.921,"text":"今年司法院在預算當中有關籌備北部少年法院的部分就編列了1.4億其中我們有超過1億是辦公廳社修繕的費用分兩年來分攤2.5億的總金額。既然籌備的預算已經有編列,最快什麼時候有機會可以看到正式成立?"},{"start":3987.861,"end":4001.779,"text":"和委員報告因為因為這一部分的這些整件包含說我們現在現在要找的一點事宜這部分是以一個中繼辦公中繼法院中繼辦公室目前是目前是預設在那個士林郵局"},{"start":4003.081,"end":4018.171,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第16次全體委員會函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會"},{"start":4026.596,"end":4032.599,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查"},{"start":4043.385,"end":4055.911,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":4071.618,"end":4083.634,"text":"一百一十五年期預算書案。我另外請教一下副部長,針對剛剛您一直提到的原額的部分,原額部分我們行政院會不會支持來雙綁,來提高我們的原額?"},{"start":4084.773,"end":4111.739,"text":"跟委員報告齁那這個在去年的話司法院一直跟大院還有跟行政院去做溝通目前目前的總緣額上限之下我們只剩下200多個那當然當然還有控管那一額那都已經報國考實際上就是200多個可以用上至法官下至公有只能全國只能用這200多個所以我們立刻面臨困境說現在的邵家法院成立我們硬體可以給"},{"start":4112.833,"end":4115.775,"text":"人法律扶助基金會審理法草案案 案件 人法律扶助基金會審議"},{"start":4140.421,"end":4142.623,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝黃副秘書長。接下來請林思明委員發言。好,謝謝我們召委。請秘書長。請黃副秘書長。"},{"start":4162.995,"end":4167.277,"text":"司法院各級法院就這種性騷擾案件有做出相關的改善或者精進的措施嗎?"},{"start":4192.256,"end":4220.171,"text":"跟委員報告當然士林地院發生這個案子我們也是非常的遺憾那麼我們以往依照那個我們那個有那個行政院有一個這個性騷跟性騷擾還有霸凌的相關的這些規範都有性騷擾這個委員會每個法院都有都有即使發生士林地院也都有"},{"start":4221.271,"end":4228.354,"text":"法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":4250.842,"end":4275.213,"text":"有相關的內容報告嗎?那個士林地院的部分當然這一位違法的這一位我們當然有給他相關的這些處分包含已經一審都判了嘛至於說檢討的這些機制我們現在也就在做那麼我們現在的預期就是說既有的這個申訴管道本來都有建立那但是但是在實際上辦理的過程中"},{"start":4277.574,"end":4283.898,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":4302.071,"end":4315.759,"text":"所以我現在要求的就是說未來司法院或者各級法院面對這樣的有關於我們這個不管是法官助理或書記官有關性騷擾的相關的一個申訴要立即展開調查"},{"start":4318.889,"end":4321.19,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案。"},{"start":4336.255,"end":4339.436,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":4354.623,"end":4357.585,"text":"三、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函"},{"start":4380.097,"end":4382.4,"text":"所以10年到了就全部銷毀所以沒有辦法回復了"},{"start":4393.582,"end":4416.062,"text":"指揮修改,我們當然要進一步去研究是不是在修改相關的這些規定,因為以前並沒有特別去發生……所以回復的可能性沒有了嗎?零嗎?所以那個評議部銷毀就銷毀了,你現在沒有辦法去查證說當時評議的結果是怎樣嗎?跟委員報告,那大法官現判雖然講要一次決,但是他並沒有限定"},{"start":4417.103,"end":4422.25,"text":"去調查以自決的證據到底是什麼,他也沒有講是限定是評議部,所以說將來假設這個評議部因為保存預期銷毀了,那麼是不是有其他的方式去調查當時是不是以自決這部分﹖所以還是有可能把他回復﹖"},{"start":4434.286,"end":4438.847,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律審議"},{"start":4459.69,"end":4477.734,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財"},{"start":4489.196,"end":4491.557,"text":"司法上訴假設追高法案是準的,然後廢棄、撤銷判決的話,那麼案件有可能回到高層法院,那中間這些人犯的那些東西是不是在行政上面我們不會讓他出現漏洞或空窗?"},{"start":4511.283,"end":4515.547,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":4534.907,"end":4536.148,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案 案 。"},{"start":4550.145,"end":4556.909,"text":"審判第9號審判,必須重啟審判。在審判的過程中,你到底要羈押他還是釋放他,這個要講清楚啊。不是所謂的涉及這個所謂的審判的這個獨立審判的一個的核心問題啊。目前我們就面臨這個問題啊。"},{"start":4580.779,"end":4582.04,"text":"事件審理法草案案 案件審理法律審議法律審議法律審議法律審議法律"},{"start":4612.18,"end":4622.288,"text":"司法院新增原額計劃配置增加法官助理如果我們增加法官助理會不會影響到我們涉及法官實質核心審判的法官"},{"start":4641.082,"end":4644.724,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會"},{"start":4671.434,"end":4691.791,"text":"委員報告,當然因為這一次行政院,行政院呢這針對我們的預算的這個這個意見也有提到這一點,所以我們審判的人,實質上班農的人力是有有增有增加一些,當然這幾年增加了60幾位,那我們後續會在會在剛才有跟委員報告,我們現在總結的上限才剩下"},{"start":4692.532,"end":4698.877,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會"},{"start":4716.569,"end":4744.44,"text":"來涉及相關審判職務的核心。」就會不會產生一種現象就是說這個判決書是由法官助理來寫好然後才請我們的法官來做修改有沒有可能有這種情形會發生?跟委員報告我目前法官助理的這些規定上面他的職務內容是從一開始就設定不可以觸及到這部分審判核心所以說協助法官去朝你判決的這一點在目前的規定上面是認為"},{"start":4745.3,"end":4745.5,"text":"規定不宜"},{"start":4766.215,"end":4773.482,"text":"法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":4787.631,"end":4802.606,"text":"所以我還是希望司法院要督導我們相關的這些法官對於審判的核心還是要自己來做,不要去委由這些法官助理他再做最後的一個裁判的一個結論啊。我想這個委員放心"},{"start":4803.086,"end":4804.427,"text":"事不斷的三令五審。」林委員"},{"start":4853.626,"end":4854.572,"text":"審查司法院審理法草案案 案。"},{"start":5165.514,"end":5193.548,"text":"今天為了慶祝台灣隊奪冠剛剛莊瑞雄委員去裝咖啡所以我們提早休息幾分鐘讓他去張羅咖啡待會請大家喝咖啡台灣最讚啦我們莊瑞雄台灣最讚等一下還沒開始還沒開始別緊張我們去張羅咖啡張羅咖啡在場人人有份喔不要亂跑喔"},{"start":5194.517,"end":5195.177,"text":"我們在清點人數。」"},{"start":5226.149,"end":5249.72,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法�"},{"start":5252.602,"end":5275.162,"text":"繼續開會"},{"start":5277.589,"end":5284.313,"text":"接下來我們請臺灣熊站我們莊委員瑞雄請大家喝咖啡的莊委員發言。謝謝莊委員有請我們司法院副...喔,來了很多人要叫誰?副秘書長好,請黃副秘書長要來這麼多院長我要請哪一個?"},{"start":5307.591,"end":5309.232,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案。"},{"start":5337.289,"end":5348.636,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查"},{"start":5365.154,"end":5368.063,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審理法草案案。"},{"start":5370.083,"end":5371.383,"text":"司法院函送財團法律審理法草案案案案。"},{"start":5396.741,"end":5404.373,"text":"那個未來的副秘書長你這個地方你有沒有去瞭解到大家詬病的地方?你以後就不會聽到,你在你們家就聽到了。"},{"start":5413.966,"end":5428.857,"text":"因為體制上我還沒有那個上任,那這個部分因為不是涉及台北地院的那個事務,我覺得還是由我們現在的那個副秘來回答。倒也不是,因為今天這麼多院長在這個地方,就是我也想聽聽實務界的看法,司法院當然也是實務界。"},{"start":5433.251,"end":5435.894,"text":"審理法律扶助基金會審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律"},{"start":5456.033,"end":5481.288,"text":"地檢署及經濟新法學會 演討會10月21至22有特殊強度處分的實務學術及教練演討會也就是說討論聚焦的一個焦點幾乎都是在整個救濟權的一個倒退這部法令在修的時候在我們設法制委員會其實經過很多的討論本席也提出很多不同的看法"},{"start":5481.988,"end":5482.929,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":5497.265,"end":5520.502,"text":"事後補發,在情況急迫進行發動GPS及研化車及無實體侵入監視以及疏漏檢查事務官、司法警察官、司法警察可抗告救濟的強大武器。當然我看整個建青那邊也對你們提出了很大的一個"},{"start":5522.935,"end":5525.016,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":5539.04,"end":5559.416,"text":"當初建清檢改就發出聲明提出聲明在救濟權的部分創造了辯護人的獨立抗告權那即使被告民事反對辯護人都以自己的名義提獨立的一個抗告在八月份我認為司法院你們的回應非常的快非常的迅速讓他給趕快讓他給落幕可是呢"},{"start":5560.257,"end":5583.503,"text":"司法院的解釋我認為是可以接受的一個地方就是說你在153條之時沒有明文規範是獨立這個可以接受那另外你們也去言語的憲判是110年憲判3號的一個意旨就本來辯護人就不可以跟被告的民事的意思表示來做一個違反這個其實在"},{"start":5586.144,"end":5590.168,"text":"法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會第2會期司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第2會期司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第2會期司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第2會期司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第2會期"},{"start":5600.86,"end":5628.705,"text":"我們整個條文的設計是受調查人對於第二個第四條、第七條、前條的裁定或處分不負責的依刑處說法提起抗告或申請撤銷跟變更。當初的條文設計就這麼簡單。對於辯護人是獨立還是代理爭議就沒有了。因為你一准用條文明定就是本來就明文規範不得跟被告明示的意思表示來做一個相反。不用大家在那邊解釋了半天。但是呢"},{"start":5629.827,"end":5635.729,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":5644.673,"end":5664.446,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財團法律函送財"},{"start":5673.251,"end":5696.063,"text":"我看在研討會裡面那麼多的一個教授啊我就比如說我就沒有一一去看啦我在上面就都有寫啦他就說從111年憲判制1號強制抽血的9冊7號裡面的辯護人的救濟權到第16號的強制採尿都是呈現救濟權是司法人權的趨勢"},{"start":5698.244,"end":5709.637,"text":"當然後面就是要給你反證我們其實都今天已經到2024年了怎麼科技偵查處分反而變成被排除的救濟權的一個設計忽略一下你的看法"},{"start":5710.973,"end":5725.4,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":5740.949,"end":5767.405,"text":"實際上後續如果說他並不符合相關的這些規定的時候後續產生的就是證據依照那個行事訴訟法的這個這個證據排除的規定那麼那個就不採這一部分的這些證據甚至如果說他有跟法律不符那麼也有後續的包含國家國家賠償甚至其他這些個人的責任這一部分去去付那麼如果說給他獨立的這個救濟"},{"start":5768.766,"end":5773.369,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案件、"},{"start":5795.983,"end":5820.612,"text":"委員會委員長不對不對不對你這個回答太過於保守了我請教委員長我看在林玉雄教授在研討會當中他也直接去直接去點出來了這種立法批評我們立法倒退了50年了因為沒有去納入納入司法警察跟司法警察官將所做的一個強制處分這個我是聽得下去喔這個我是聽得下去喔接下來"},{"start":5825.407,"end":5846.921,"text":"現在司法院換你起來你要當家了你們到底有沒有什麼樣的一個比如說重新修法的這樣的一個打算確實啊確實啊你有權力就有救濟這是法律的一個基本概念啊為什麼你把柯真處分的這個部分你把它給排除掉了你們就把它排除掉啦"},{"start":5851.844,"end":5868.062,"text":"報告齁,其實當時司法院只是講說有沒有必要可以斟酌,但是真的假設要訂進去,司法院也沒有說絕對排除。這部分就是153之10,刑訴153之10的這一個,如果認為說真的有必要列出,但是我們比較建議說不要進在416而已。"},{"start":5871.445,"end":5876.007,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":5895.675,"end":5910.669,"text":"我們過去你看2020年的草案裡面公務人員濫用科技偵查手段是有罰則喔那我們現在這部通過的法令都已經是退縮到我們是只有執法機關的內控機制你認為這樣強大的一個強制處分只用內控的機制對嗎"},{"start":5917.762,"end":5925.583,"text":"你本來認為說那個部分公務人員只要違法的話那個本來刑法裡面就有規定本期一直跟你講說那個含涉的範圍不夠"},{"start":5927.659,"end":5929.761,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":5957.186,"end":5963.288,"text":"對於這一些強制處分的一個救濟的部分再去做一個重新的考慮跟安排。我是認為啦我是這樣認為啦就是說"},{"start":5990.178,"end":6012.888,"text":"我本來是要這部強大的一個強制處分權的是在偵查機關那反而偵查機關取得這個權利條文的一個設計給他這個權利以後現在反而是偵查機關跳出來講說不行不行很有可能我們是會爛權的司法院女郎跳出來幫他背書說不會不會你們去內控就好了"},{"start":6014.144,"end":6026.088,"text":"你不覺得你們這個角色,你們在這一部法律裡面,你讓我覺得檢察機關跟我們司法機關跟司法院這個地方,角色你們錯亂掉了。你們錯亂掉就唯一只有一個理由。您自肥的心態,你們認為這個法律通過以後,量能,你們沒有那個救濟的量能。"},{"start":6037.281,"end":6047.244,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":6066.909,"end":6090.105,"text":"沒有超過兩天或者沒有超過二十四小時這一些都不須受到法律的制約只要內控就好了我認為這個都不夠我認為這個都不夠而且你這一些科證法的強制處分完了以後這個資料未必會消失喔你只要你跟他如果還有用到啊而且沒有人知道啊他就是保留著啊"},{"start":6093.533,"end":6097.018,"text":"法律審理法草案案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件"},{"start":6108.393,"end":6117.377,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":6137.813,"end":6139.014,"text":"吳釗偉、鍾憲發言。謝謝主席。那我們麻煩黃富密、周廳長還有李廳長還有陳處長、陳美紅處長。"},{"start":6160.595,"end":6163.196,"text":"審理法律審議法律審議法律審議法律審議法律審議法律"},{"start":6189.987,"end":6206.363,"text":"副秘你現在馬上要那個調動那那個是恭喜恭喜謝謝委員副秘你要招待?你要不要講?時間停止一下好了,看嘛,回歸審判"},{"start":6208.524,"end":6212.046,"text":"司法院長期以來也有這個問題以前我自己在檢方的時候其實幾乎沒有假日"},{"start":6226.736,"end":6242.005,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第16次全體委員會第16次審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第16次審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第16次審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會第16次審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":6250.87,"end":6276.686,"text":"公務員給外界的感覺應該是一個鐵飯碗,一個很好過日子的一個工作,可以一路穩定做到退休,但是這些年越來越嚴重的就是工作量太大,然後壓力太大,很多人都受不了,所以上半年"},{"start":6277.746,"end":6278.307,"text":"公務員希望能一體適用治安法"},{"start":6304.516,"end":6328.497,"text":"勞動部對勞工有一個職安法來保護他們,而且這個職安法也不停地在修正,然後來對勞工更加的保障,但是對公務員的部分因為不適用,所以公務員的部分這幾年其實很多人都覺得保障是不足的,雖然公務員有公務員自己適用的法規,但是他的保障遠遠不及於那個職安法,所以這個部分"},{"start":6329.877,"end":6331.218,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案案。"},{"start":6342.715,"end":6366.073,"text":"結果後來找了一個新的法官助理去配合那個法官結果那個新的助理也馬上就不幹了那結果第一院還是請原來的助理再回過頭去再繼續支援原來的那位法官其實這個對人的傷害很大那我想請教一下複密你支不支持公務員也要一定納入這個治安法去保障"},{"start":6368.069,"end":6389.025,"text":"公務委員報告,當然稱呼委員所講,我們目前就這個公務員的這個保護的部分是有相關的這些規定。至於說這些規定不如治安法,說不如治安法,我們覺得這個可能有些討論的這些空間,等一下這一部分也許我們人事處長可以去做回應。你支持嗎?如果你的話你支持嗎?"},{"start":6393.72,"end":6395.321,"text":"公務員保障法公務員保障法"},{"start":6410.306,"end":6412.207,"text":"公務員及非公務員公務員及非公務員公務員及非公務員公務員及非公務員"},{"start":6426.934,"end":6447.842,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度進行審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度進行審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度進行審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度進行審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度進行審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度進行審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度進行審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基"},{"start":6454.764,"end":6479.951,"text":"對司法反而是傷害對人民對於司法絕對不會有信任度。」那我提一個東西啊就是說因為106年的時候司改國是會議的時候其實當時就有討論到要促進司法的效率然後減輕司法人員的工作量但是你看這段時間來工作量是越來越誇張啦我跟你講我回過頭去看我記得我看到了一個數據是106109年到"},{"start":6484.354,"end":6484.539,"text":"今年"},{"start":6485.819,"end":6497.665,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":6515.695,"end":6528.398,"text":"現在大家都離職你反而不一定當律師好做他就跟我說沒有賺到錢至少賺到健康跟人生啦那這樣反而回過頭去推論其實司法的工作量就是太多了齁"},{"start":6530.475,"end":6543.949,"text":"其實上個會期我有辦一個公聽會當時我們有請那個民庭的周佩琪法官還有那個紀凱峰的前法官來提到提到就是說是不是我們有一些形式化的那個書類調查證據的"},{"start":6546.952,"end":6567.392,"text":"書證調查程序、二審要不要完全複審?這些東西當時都是他們所提出來希望能夠改善的。那共定會完之後我也有請行政廳、民事廳都來我們大家一起討論嘛。就是說看有什麼樣可以簡化整個程序。但是在這個會期所提出來的立法計畫我卻沒有看到制度的改善內容欸。府民"},{"start":6570.99,"end":6599.624,"text":"其實我們的,剛才委員所提的這幾點嚴格上來講其實並沒有涉及到修法的問題啦那麼在現行的這個法律上面看如何去操作只是說確實第一個那麼裁判書的這個製作我們也都在努力在做簡化那當然當然我們也不斷的跟上級審去講說對下級審的這個判決的裁判的這個審查是不是能夠能夠再去"},{"start":6601.756,"end":6628.79,"text":"針對重點而不要介入比如說不要介入過度事實如果介入過度事實下級審自然就會操作成副審那這部分當然也是我們在努力的方式這部分其實沒有涉及到修改法律當然就是說那麼那麼說像剛才委員所講那周佩琪法官講到高等法院民庭法官的這些日常那其實跟委員報告那我們台灣高等法院台灣高等法院也在那個高院長的帶領之下"},{"start":6629.89,"end":6640.861,"text":"實務行政事件審理法草案案案 案件及審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律函送財團法律"},{"start":6653.733,"end":6680.423,"text":"負審要不要改為續審制?交互結婚要不要一完再完?這個都是我們提到。那我們上次公聽會完之後我收到非常多法官、假官寫email過來我這邊公務信箱跟我們提供很多想法而且拜託我們一定要繼續往這邊處理因為沒有人想要累死在辦公室啊那我想說你馬上也要去當法官了嘛那接下來你也要面對過勞的問題了所以希望說能夠多給司法院一些建議啦"},{"start":6681.303,"end":6682.524,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案案案"},{"start":6703.203,"end":6707.848,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查"},{"start":6727.13,"end":6744.297,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府重新審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":6750.299,"end":6751.46,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案案"},{"start":6779.994,"end":6782.059,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度"},{"start":6786.397,"end":6814.407,"text":"否則啊這次勞動部的狀況也一樣啊勞動部那個無薪的員工他也是一樣一直在做功德一大早去加班四五點去加班做到晚上八九點但是你看他的加班的時數的登記都是很短因為不能夠超過嘛大法官會罵人啊結果到最後大家就做功德自願留在辦公室加班會造成這個問題所以啊這絕對不會有什麼友善司法啦那大法官這次就是利益良善啦"},{"start":6814.667,"end":6830.893,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":6835.885,"end":6846.319,"text":"再多的法官都沒有用那檢方也是如果還是搞像這樣的程序再多的檢察官也都補不完再多的助理再多的事務官都永遠都沒有用"},{"start":6847.595,"end":6854.883,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府"},{"start":6869.838,"end":6887.456,"text":"我先點一個,因為你們司法院現在對於那個法扶基金會的那個捐款一年比一年高,是不是真的應該跟法扶基金會去討論一下範圍會不會過廣?這是我以前在15屆的時候就曾經想過了,是不是範圍過廣?那排付條款是不是要"},{"start":6889.134,"end":6907.169,"text":"不能所有的族群都毫無目的地不排復。」是不是有這個,這個大概是一個小建議,建議你們要思考一下,否則司法院的預算越來越多就是去法扶基金會,然後還是解決不了司法不被信任的問題。好,那最後我提一個東西,因為"},{"start":6908.55,"end":6937.222,"text":"我思考到那個被害人訴訟參與制度,那這個也是跟那個林育雄教授也有聊過,其實我們要去思考這被害人訴訟參與這個制度,我們到底要怎麼樣去保障,尤其是被害人家屬,他有沒有辦法在法庭上面有足夠的聲量去告訴法官他的想法,否則現在整個訴訟的程序的走法,以刑事訴訟來說好了,全部是偏重保障被告,但是你從修復式司法的角度或是從被害人"},{"start":6937.782,"end":6944.386,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":6968.254,"end":6971.661,"text":"我會提出對於重罪的被害人一些身體調查證據或詢問被告、證人鑑定人或獨立上訴權"},{"start":6980.043,"end":6981.384,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7005.846,"end":7011.651,"text":"法官經常保障被告的權益。」最後一個點,這是憲判制有關死刑的部分,他有提到一個什麼是最嚴重的犯罪。"},{"start":7025.018,"end":7040.059,"text":"主文第10段有提到一個就是這37位死刑犯如果認為自己是並非犯罪嚴重這時候他可以是申請非常上訴那當然總長同不同意或最高法院同不同意"},{"start":7040.7,"end":7051.407,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":7066.457,"end":7076.28,"text":"大法官在判決裡面還特別交代說他這個只是舉例說明並不是限於只有這幾種判斷標準但是呢我們這次"},{"start":7081.54,"end":7101.97,"text":"最高法院駁回的理由竟然是認為說不是預謀殺人就不算是最嚴重。他等於是只有隨便抓裡面一個東西出來就這樣認定,而不是全方面的去認定。那我想請問一下複密,你覺得拿狼頭在那邊找人要敲他的頭,這不算是預謀嗎?"},{"start":7105.114,"end":7131.936,"text":"委員報告那那個他的預謀應該是講說事先就有一個犯罪這個計畫那當然當然這個是故意那但是至於說預謀他個案的這個認定那我們還是尊重獨立審判所以我們的預謀就是限縮在我必須要一個縝密的計畫要對誰幹什麼事要取得什麼樣的結果這才叫預謀是這一個案子的審判的這個認知"},{"start":7134.233,"end":7152.1,"text":"法官獨立審判所以我也不為難你但是我必須點出這個點就是大法官他在判決裡面所提到的這三個動機手段跟結果其他有說了他這個只是舉例而已並不是限縮所以我希望全國的法官不要弄錯這個點"},{"start":7153.661,"end":7168.177,"text":"我沒有違背大法官的判決,大法官自己就這樣寫,他在第10段最後面他就寫緊繫歷史而非列舉,所以他不是限縮喔,請法官不要誤解了大法官的想法。"},{"start":7169.369,"end":7173.271,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案 案件審理法草案案 案件審理法草案案 案件審理法草案案"},{"start":7196.781,"end":7201.262,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審議"},{"start":7226.269,"end":7251.463,"text":"辛苦的問題你們再研究一下怎麼處理。」好,謝謝。謝謝胡宗憲委員,因為你算國民黨比較有憲法意識的,所以我給你多說一遍。但是啊,還是在這邊宣告啦,那個...那個...黃文明喔,你雖然要做法官喔,如果我有機會做職位喔,你要想要回來立法院發表高見,你告訴我,我幫你擺。第一個。"},{"start":7252.712,"end":7276.024,"text":"二、公務人員當然要保障,確實要去加強,但你就講說勞工的保障包山包海,勞工的悲歌一年365天都唱不完。接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員,你還要學著啦,你看人家都有咖啡喝,就只有你沒有。"},{"start":7283.871,"end":7287.253,"text":"審查司法院第11屆第2會期司法院第11屆第2會期司法院第11屆第2會期司法院第11屆第2會期"},{"start":7307.004,"end":7309.788,"text":"黃副秘書長也請我們臺北地院的王院長趕快來見習一下也請我們仿佛的陳董事長陳董事長"},{"start":7329.435,"end":7333.238,"text":"國民法官國審案。國審案將擴大納入貪污等案,要強化國民的參與率及拒絕標準。國民法官上路2年,15年案由將擴大。"},{"start":7351.213,"end":7373.42,"text":"本來在去年我們新收108件,未結83件,好像比前兩年總數加起來要多。根據官方法第五條第一項,它是兩個要件,一個是故意犯罪因而發生死亡的結果者,對不對,這已經實施了嘛,過去這幾年就是這樣。那未來在15年,所犯罪侵本行為10年以上有期徒刑之罪,請問這些包含哪些?這些罪包含哪些?"},{"start":7376.584,"end":7383.267,"text":"判違包括強制性交、傷害、妨礙幼童、強盜擄人勒贖、兒少性剝削、人口販運、懲治走私、國家情報、妨礙國家安全以及貪污治罪條例。」對不對?"},{"start":7406.357,"end":7421.468,"text":"一百一十二年的強盜結合家辱人勒俗的結合罪11人,但是重大貪污有15人。是不是這樣子?但是有沒有評估未來總收案量會成長多少?法院人力充不充足?有沒有評估過?我們在一一五年要開始擴大。"},{"start":7424.189,"end":7425.43,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":7454.229,"end":7456.112,"text":"重大貪污案件適用國民法官法嗎?」"},{"start":7465.256,"end":7470.86,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案 案件情節繁雜或需高度專業知識非經長久時日顯然完成審判者。」請問副秘書長為什麼要加上這一款?為什麼國民法官法要避免這種情節繁雜要長久時日?"},{"start":7491.465,"end":7509.099,"text":"委員報告齁,因為那個國民,一般的國民參與的這些案件齁,第一個,他只能在很……比如說在兩週內要讓國民法官完成。對對對,那他沒有辦法像一般的法官這樣,可以一年兩年,一年兩年再審判子。"},{"start":7509.699,"end":7536.113,"text":"所以根據這樣子去年根據複雜條款裁定不行使國民參審審判的有28件申請其中複雜案件13件那麼准以15件複雜案件6件差不多複雜案件有一半是准以不交由國民法官參與嘛對不對好那請問一下複雜性條款有沒有不複雜的貪污案剛剛講到我們這個重大貪污案適用國民法官法但是有沒有不複雜的貪污案"},{"start":7537.915,"end":7538.716,"text":"最近大家最熱門的"},{"start":7554.939,"end":7556.061,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案。」"},{"start":7571.857,"end":7594.399,"text":"和委員報告,當然有相當的這些複雜度,但是跟委員報告,也不是說有複雜法官那個申請說不行國民審判,法官就會准,法官就是要去准,沒錯,好,那麼看一下這個是還在進行中的,我們看已經癥結的,重大貪官適用國民法官法,會有什麼問題?貪官的特質,涉案人數眾多,金流複雜,被告不認罪,你看,禪送12年,南投前縣長啊,"},{"start":7595.6,"end":7603.726,"text":"李朝卿收回扣111件罪全部定案累計刑期達超過400年。」李朝卿案恐怕我們想國民法官沒辦法銷售啊。"},{"start":7630.919,"end":7649.264,"text":"財刑國民法案制度就是要集中審理,有些時候會拖久,就是因為集中審理沒有辦法落實貫徹,那這也是國民法案法律制度。我們來看一下還有什麼其他的考量,來下一頁。遇到有社會矚目的案件如何維持國民法案的公正性?國民法案法第14條。"},{"start":7650.664,"end":7655.548,"text":"包括總統、副總統、各級機關首長、政務人員、民意代表、政黨黨務工作人員。國民法第15條選任國民法官法,這些人不能參與,有具體事證足認其執行職務,有難其公正之語。小草集結北檢挺科這些人會不會落入到第15條第9款的項目當中呢?"},{"start":7680.336,"end":7691.097,"text":"如果我們這重大的社會矚目案件有這些人那你就說重大貪污看複雜程度不見得那你在選任國民法官的時候這些人你怎麼去篩選出來"},{"start":7694.742,"end":7723.514,"text":"委員報告這一個是不是符合這個去選任不適合當任國民法官其實要有具體的事證而且在選任程序裡面雙方都會去表示意見那今天被告這邊表示意見檢察官那一邊他可能會表示意見所以所以說我們現在談到了當15年擴大包括貪污案件納入的時候除了案件複雜之外社會矚目的你在選任國民法官的時候不只是因為案件複雜連選任的人員都要特別謹慎對不對"},{"start":7724.854,"end":7727.115,"text":"民嘴、網路、KOL、支持者"},{"start":7735.128,"end":7739.709,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":7759.213,"end":7773.242,"text":"可能被選出來當國民法官的他的過去的參與有沒有這種的事證?是不是這樣?這是個龐大的工程,這個事情誰來把關?誰來把關?如果是在北院的話,是誰來把關?如果這個案子郭生法、中華北院是個誰來把關國民法官的選任?"},{"start":7787.317,"end":7812.706,"text":"請王院長提供一下見解,因為未來你要擔任這個職務。這個依法是由國民法官庭的審判長。國民法官庭的審判長嘛,所以很重要嘛,各位我們各個地院的院長喔,這個複雜度大約是好,往下一頁,來我們看一下。那其實我們更關心的不是這個,不是主卻,是要怎麼提升人民參與審判來強化司法信任度。我們1、2年應到的候選法官2352位,10到呢,"},{"start":7816.206,"end":7819.93,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議"},{"start":7837.54,"end":7840.925,"text":"議員最高的是專業人士、軍公教跟學生,議員最低是家管、退休、無業跟勞力人員。為什麼會這樣子呢?有這樣的觀點嗎?我們再往下看。"},{"start":7855.463,"end":7868.928,"text":"其實營養參與意願的呢他這裡的說法是說因為可能學歷低者他比較擔心對日常生活及生計造成影響像這些勞力人員、兼職人員最怕這一點那請問候選的法官僱主知道應該以公價並可領日費嗎你們有去調查嗎"},{"start":7872.145,"end":7898.311,"text":"你覺得是原因嗎?但影響生活經濟。我們這部分應該都有做相關的通知跟宣導,應該會知道。那未來的副部長要強化,要請司法院這邊強化各院的宣導。但是是不是真的是考慮說因為經濟生活,我們再往下看。很奇怪耶,從年齡來看,年齡越高,到場率越低啊。尤其是六、七十歲以上的到場率低於平均。這些人不都已經退休了嗎?"},{"start":7900.339,"end":7929.293,"text":"為什麼還會擔心他的經濟生活呢?是什麼原因造成年紀較長者他擔心去擔任國民法官呢?你們要去深入探究原因,可以嗎?這一點我特別提出來,再往下看所以候選的國民法官魏道廷將開法啊你看我這給你看吼,叫招啊,我們當兵叫招呢,魏報道將有刑事責任但是你們的國民法官法以橋頭地院來講吼,沒有代名魏道廷可依法拘提,哇這好嚴重啊"},{"start":7930.667,"end":7951.424,"text":"市務上是不是有沒有提醒?有沒有提醒?沒有啊,這個傳票上面沒有載明啊,是不好載明還是怎麼樣?要你去當國民法官,不來,把你拘來,有這樣的事情嗎?民眾會不會覺得法情感上難以接受,要我去當法官不去你還要把我抓出去?"},{"start":7952.245,"end":7975.26,"text":"提醒都有提醒啦但是目前沒有好啦我也沒有說你們一定要載名啦也不是說載名就比較好啦但是這個是一個很重要的觀念啦或許你們覺得載名之後會讓民眾深深恐懼或有錯誤的誤解其實當國民法院是個義務但是你用到具體可能民眾會嚇一跳是不是這樣子我了解你們要去體會但是這個要加強怎麼辦讓徐先生好不好好先往下下一題"},{"start":7978.502,"end":7981.943,"text":"審判的意願,並且嚴格國民法官案件的轉軌及拒絕標準。」最後陳董要請回王蜂蜜跟王院長還有我要點一下我們屏東地院的李院長不用上來交接一下"},{"start":8001.627,"end":8030.907,"text":"護士長,你去過屏東地院看過,我們屏東地院有一個司法園區的專案,是不是要推動嗎?我們希望未來的王院長接著之後要持續推動,因為這個案子很重要,要跟法務部、要跟國產署、要跟國土署都要去做共同協商,所以請兩位共同承諾繼續推動,包括幫我們的屏東地院,李院長很積極,我們的地檢的陳檢察長也很積極,需要上面司法院跟法務部共同推動,可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":8032.648,"end":8035.35,"text":"行政院一律新建的辦公廳設,沒有植物宿舍,都沒有了,只有哪裡?"},{"start":8053.743,"end":8072.938,"text":"只有新蓋的屏東榮總有植物宿舍你知道什麼原因嗎因為蘇院長特別破例給這些辛苦的醫護人員要輪班所以讓他們在新建的廳舍裡面有植物宿舍未來如果說司法園區能夠成立它的地占地面積等等各方面條件很好未必要在同一個廳舍裡面在附近"},{"start":8073.638,"end":8074.118,"text":"就可有職務宿舍。」"},{"start":8100.367,"end":8103.309,"text":"審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律"},{"start":8130.114,"end":8158.567,"text":"謝謝主席在場我們所有我們司法院各個院長們大家好我自我介紹我是吳思瑤我過去在教育文化領域現在是司法法制委員會的新手我也一路在學習很高興可以跟大家對話那我先請我們的黃富密然後也請未來要接任的王院長來王院長預備適應一下"},{"start":8165.411,"end":8182.504,"text":"其實過去我在教育文化領域每年審議預算總是一年一會坐在這裡的都是所有國立大學的校長一年一會那司法法制委員會就是所有的法院的院長我非常珍惜可以跟大家對話的這個機會"},{"start":8184.845,"end":8204.516,"text":"司法院的三大挑戰總預算能不能過關人事案能不能夠就表定現在是12月24號已經延宕了但是趕進度審議完成第三個當然是職場減壓我們所有司法人員的過勞問題我一一來救教下頁"},{"start":8206.297,"end":8229.679,"text":"一言不合就砍預算。」我非常期待在野黨的委員要理性。不要因為司法的個案或者是憲判的結果就劍指司法院的預算。這不是理性的審議。我整理出過去幾年司法法制委員會審查"},{"start":8232.119,"end":8253.078,"text":"司法院的預算。我發現其實立法院對於司法院平等相為,預算基本上是尊重的。依據我們憲法增修條文第五條的第六項也很清楚的明定,其實司法院的司法預算是獨立的。"},{"start":8254.139,"end":8265.83,"text":"行政院也不能夠刪減,它只能夠加注意見,一併來移送立法院審議。所以站在司法預算獨立的角度,我又對應於過去這幾年,民進黨作為國會多數的時候,凍結數平均是1296萬,只佔0.33%。"},{"start":8276.5,"end":8283.366,"text":"剪列數更低,只減了70.6萬,它佔比是0.0176%,而統刪數比較高,這是立法院針對各個部會包括行政院的所屬機關有個統刪,所以統刪最後是高達1億2653萬,比例是3%左右。我做出這個表格,我希望在野黨的委員們"},{"start":8302.944,"end":8328.081,"text":"我們嚴格來監督、把關司法預算,畢竟預算來自於民脂民膏,但是捍衛司法預算機關的獨立,我認為憲政機關之間平等相為。」所以黃富明您即將要離開這個位置,未來持續接棒要在立法院捍守預算,包括可能王院長您也要深入各個"},{"start":8328.962,"end":8331.385,"text":"委員辦公室到各個黨團去說明預算。」"},{"start":8344.716,"end":8372.132,"text":"就是我們用數字會說話過去國會對於司法預算的獨立性是給予尊重的我希望你們可以站在這個角度而且憲法增修條文第五條第六項給了我們一個很好的保護傘希望大家能夠善用下一頁那昨天大家都有看棒球嘛這個七局啊七局上的時候我們的潘帥潘杰凱他一個撲雷"},{"start":8373.833,"end":8388.239,"text":"結果被一、這個叫一壘的裁判判SAFE嘛,先SAFE嘛,後來去掉袋子看大會的主審去review了整個影袋然後最後是outs。"},{"start":8390.055,"end":8410.779,"text":"我們要有運動員的精神不會因為主審的裁判判定不服就要來推翻裁判的判決這在運動場上是運動員的風度同樣在面對大法官憲法法庭的判決國會也應當有這樣的風度"},{"start":8415.305,"end":8423.423,"text":"不是因為憲判判定了不利於您的個案然後就要來惡修憲法訴訟法。」"},{"start":8425.526,"end":8454.699,"text":"二修了憲法訴訟法在制度面將與人事同意權的交相適用產生了風險在實體面會形成另一種形式的反多數決的困境在價值面會使孤立絕緣的結構弱勢更為邊緣而在效益上增加平益的成本將使我們的憲法法庭的案件難以消化"},{"start":8455.78,"end":8465.334,"text":"這是我反對惡修憲法訴訟法還有這麼多的律師民團走上街頭。請問王院長做好準備了嗎?"},{"start":8469.246,"end":8495.027,"text":"未來在修法協商你也要來的喔!雖然已經被強行送出了委員會。謝謝委員免利,我在努力中。就專業,我們就勇敢講專業的話,下一頁。這個表格我已經講了N次,不管是舊制或新制憲法法庭所收的案件9乘5、9乘8都是人民的申請案,下一頁。"},{"start":8496.822,"end":8511.468,"text":"藍白所幻想的,也就是提案的翁曉琳委員一直在說的極端案例,三位、四位大法官就會來作出憲判,這種極端案例並不存在。」"},{"start":8512.208,"end":8516.171,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府"},{"start":8542.108,"end":8546.469,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8572.54,"end":8589.968,"text":"大法官的人事案好理家在現在已經終於終於嚴當在嚴當但是立法院已經排定了12月24號終於要行使我們大法官的同意權但是我們也呼籲在野黨的委員要理性審查"},{"start":8590.948,"end":8608.156,"text":"一旦不理性的審查而來拒絕行使或者是行使不同意我們都尊重但是可能會癱瘓憲法法庭的前提就是在人事同意權的行使過程當中大法官沒有辦法補足。下一頁"},{"start":8609.156,"end":8631.766,"text":"我這裡也替大家整理出來同意權延宕已經是前所未見從2003年大法官同意權改由立法院來行使之後只有2007年陳水扁執政的時候有四位大法官提名被國民黨多數否決我們予以尊重這是國會審查之後予以否決但是從來沒有發生延宕"},{"start":8640.089,"end":8662.939,"text":"確據審大法官人事同意權的案例。」是不是?複密。我希望我整理的這個表格的最下方能夠讓我們行使同意權然後大法官的就任時間能夠填上,否則它持續是問號。"},{"start":8665.1,"end":8690.181,"text":"大法官的人事同意權持續不行使,或者是行使不同意,前提用不理性的方式來對待,進行政治的報復,癱瘓了司法院,這是史上從來沒有發生過的惡例。」我希望我這個表格最下方的這四個大大的問號能夠不再是問號。立法委員也要善盡我們的憲法忠誠義務。下一頁。"},{"start":8692.663,"end":8711.978,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度重新審查司法院"},{"start":8719.864,"end":8738.98,"text":"後來在我質詢之後你們擴及所有的地院員工請你們去徹查所有的地院高院是不是都有讓EAP是一視同仁大家都可以社會好嗎好下一頁然後我可以請台中地院的邱院長嗎有請邱院長"},{"start":8741.345,"end":8765.843,"text":"在您行進的過程我就直接說我非常肯定台中地院曾經應該是現在應該還有這個制度吧讓我們的同仁可以有半天工假4個小時的時間可以就近去國美館看看藝術現在這個制度還有嗎有有其他的地院有這樣學習的經驗嗎就您所知"},{"start":8767.403,"end":8768.024,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案。"},{"start":8775.253,"end":8778.016,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會10年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及所屬主管收支部分。」"},{"start":8797.836,"end":8799.117,"text":"審查司法院組審理法草案案 案。"},{"start":8817.188,"end":8845.099,"text":"我今天又可以很正能量的來面對立法院的這些不合理的政治攻防。場所精神是重要的是不是未來的副秘書長我們可以來我覺得這是一個非常健康的好的方式不管是文化的或是運動的運動類的活動休閒的活動帶頭來做吧好嗎好謝謝委員免令好這都是治標了下一頁心理架可以去研議一下"},{"start":8846.685,"end":8875.506,"text":"現在公務部門人事總處也要來增加對於公務部門的心理調適架的增定不是為了放假而是為了讓每一個請身心調適架的司法人員他能夠被我們的人事體系追蹤管考他可能承擔了心靈上的一些困難需要我們及時來介入來剛剛有小抄递上來了複密署長你有什麼要回答嗎"},{"start":8876.594,"end":8902.605,"text":"公務員報告當然如果因為這個這個假大概主管是人事總統詮釋部如果他們有這樣的相關規定我們司法院當然樂觀其成那但是除了放假以外我們現在剛才委員所垂行的那個心理健康方案我們現在已經推動全國那就我們的統計裡面現在法官以外的這個同仁去請求這個心理心理健康照護的"},{"start":8903.345,"end":8907.347,"text":"司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":8933.325,"end":8940.668,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":8956.215,"end":8971.87,"text":"有效率的程序我們都在做但是目前只剩下預算總原的預算案只剩下兩百多個兩百多個兩百九十幾個至少要先補吧至少要先讓我們是能夠先解放一下我們才有辦法去做後續的這些是沒錯會會寸步難行好"},{"start":8974.692,"end":8981.135,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會"},{"start":9001.308,"end":9004.249,"text":"事件審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律"},{"start":9021.959,"end":9022.28,"text":"審查司法院組"},{"start":9037.14,"end":9064.02,"text":"我現在看我現在跟您分享是新竹縣去年2023年暑假期間有性侵過學生的老師他依然在相關的社區運動俱樂部當中作為老師然後對外招生但這個事情到底是怎麼回事呢照理說他應該有進入所謂社政開罰的系統當中但是負面你應該知道社政系統跟司法系統之間的名單是沒有互相勾結的甚且"},{"start":9064.781,"end":9078.176,"text":"以這個案子為例他在判刑還沒有確定之前他依然有一個很大的空窗期繼續在外面以他個人的名義也好以他工作室是受聘老師的名義也好繼續"},{"start":9080.058,"end":9095.291,"text":"當所謂的社區運動的教練跟我們的孩子日夜相處然後教的孩子做很多運動工作但是這個問題我在去年上任之後我們積極的跟教育部衛福部還有司法院這邊溝通那以新竹這個案例為說呢"},{"start":9095.731,"end":9099.914,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":9126.131,"end":9129.515,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度"},{"start":9148.318,"end":9162.4,"text":"委員請委員指教。意思就是說我們來看下一頁。在你們目前的系統當中是長成這個樣子的齁。就是目前兒少法應該裁罰的事件可以分三個方向。社政、教育跟司法。"},{"start":9163.221,"end":9170.729,"text":"其中教育及司法過去因為回歸到各自的行政調查及所謂的偵辦,所以就算有了結果,也不會回送給設政機關做裁罰。這就是我剛說的兒少法裁罰的黑數,對嗎?我現在的理解是對,對不對?就你們司法的部分。"},{"start":9182.878,"end":9196.809,"text":"跟委員報告,當然案情我們沒有事先得到訊息,但是剛剛委員所寫他好像被檢察官不起訴處分確定,那是不是就這個整個案子都沒有到我們司法所屬法院的這個體系?"},{"start":9198.81,"end":9223.537,"text":"有在你們司法體系當中不管他判例有沒有確定你們的司法系統都不會把這個案例的資料送回給社政系統去做裁罰所以我身為家長如果我要把我的小孩送去某個夏令營送去某個社區運動俱樂部我想要去兒少法裁罰的公告地方查一查看說陳培宇這個人過去有沒有對兒少做過不好的事情我在衛福部49條的那個兒少法49條公告網站上"},{"start":9226.218,"end":9230.641,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查"},{"start":9242.421,"end":9243.662,"text":"司法委員會在司法體系,可是你們沒有把資料回送給社政體系啊。"},{"start":9258.564,"end":9259.525,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案。"},{"start":9278.044,"end":9279.064,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案件事件財務行政事件審議"},{"start":9301.474,"end":9303.775,"text":"財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案 案件中的財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案 案件中的財團法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案"},{"start":9322.546,"end":9332.215,"text":"公文最後一句話請複密看一下。涉政機關如果需要相關的判例確定資料,你們叫涉政機關自己要找法務部跟檢察署來提供。"},{"start":9333.735,"end":9362.718,"text":"那我想要問的是那中間這個很大的這個資料的黑數沒有辦法協助家長確切掌握到底某一個老師他是不是真的適合繼續留在不同的教育現場陪伴我們的小孩如同我剛說社區裡面有非常多有社區運動俱樂部有安親班有客服班還有所有實驗教育團隊有非常非常多現在民間有非常多多元的教育團隊可以接觸到小孩但是他產生了一個很大的漏洞"},{"start":9363.598,"end":9370.042,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案件事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件財務行政事件"},{"start":9404.569,"end":9407.311,"text":"法律扶助基金會執行長周執行長以及未來將擔任副秘書長的王院長"},{"start":9433.907,"end":9445.918,"text":"黃福民署長、周執行長、王院長,你們好。我想請教你們有沒有聽過一句話叫做半瓶水響叮噹?"},{"start":9448.868,"end":9450.409,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":9468.018,"end":9491.113,"text":"審法法制委員會是一個非常強調專業素養有高專業門檻的一個委員會可是呢我們就常常會聽到這個非法律專業的委員像是吳思堯委員、柯建民委員常常就在那裡大放厥詞那麼竟然說憲法訴訟法的修法是政治報復請問"},{"start":9493.275,"end":9493.978,"text":"三、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院組"},{"start":9498.766,"end":9503.048,"text":"審法訴訟法是政治報復嗎?是很專業的討論。如果不夠專業的討論,如果不是一針見血,我相信今天不會有這麼多的民進黨會發動這麼多的律師團體等等的上街來抗議。"},{"start":9523.778,"end":9524.498,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案"},{"start":9544.284,"end":9549.428,"text":"法律審理法草案案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件審理法草案案件"},{"start":9564.727,"end":9584.492,"text":"主管機關是司法院,修法機關呢?誰有權修法?所以立法院是不是有這個立法形成自由?我們是不是有立法裁量空間?我們對於憲法法庭的審理規則要如何的去制定立法院有沒有權可以做決定?"},{"start":9586.653,"end":9612.93,"text":"當然大院可以決定如何修法,但是當然要在憲法的這個架構之下。是,所以你認為說我們現在修法是不符合憲法的架構嗎?我想這部分是專業的討論,我們尊重大院的這些職權。是,所以我們所提出的修法的內容,基本上當然是符合憲法的精神,符合我們立法的這個相關的程序,一步一步的都是按照正當法律程序來走。"},{"start":9613.874,"end":9631.248,"text":"如果說今天大法官都可以要求我們的法院在針對死刑的這個合一制判決要求一致決的時候,那為什麼我們沒有權力可以強化憲法法庭的審理門檻,提高憲法訴訟的這個審理的程序門檻,這樣是有問題嗎?請問副院長。"},{"start":9635.829,"end":9653.576,"text":"報告好,在憲法上面的話,是不是符合憲法,這是憲法法庭的職權,我們司法行政沒有辦法去替憲法法庭回答。是,那我這邊請教你,誰來約束憲法法庭的職權?大法官今天如果做了一個違憲違法的憲法判決,誰有權利可以去節制大法官?"},{"start":9656.094,"end":9661.397,"text":"請問您認為誰有權利可以來劫持大法官的權利?如果說當大法官擴權的時候,從我們現行的憲法、法律角度裡面來看,有辦法解決這個問題嗎?"},{"start":9688.524,"end":9689.104,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案"},{"start":9718.844,"end":9720.525,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":9745.08,"end":9754.093,"text":"法律扶助基金會114年度預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案案。"},{"start":9761.069,"end":9778.119,"text":"委員報告。」那麼之前有委員隨詢這個問題,那其實我們在相關的這些制度底下跟基金會都在溝通,像一些以前的這個勞動專案跟這些人民專案,我們都希望說排付條款。"},{"start":9778.559,"end":9781.02,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":9799.927,"end":9810.137,"text":"第二、本席有看到你們這次法扶基金會預計要成立一個形式辯護中心,可是這個形式辯護中心該是法扶基金會成立的嗎?你們成立的這個目的到底是什麼?"},{"start":9814.128,"end":9821.971,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度"},{"start":9841.917,"end":9844.758,"text":"審查司法院審理法草案案案 案件審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律審理法律"},{"start":9865.724,"end":9870.227,"text":"法務部來主編嗎?或者是說其實有關於律師的訓練這部分不應該是交由各個律師公會來舉辦就好了?我們有必要再花4000多萬去成立一個刑事辯護中心嗎?在你們這次的預算書當中其實寫得非常非常的簡略。"},{"start":9884.735,"end":9886.117,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":9901.236,"end":9906.518,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議"},{"start":9919.684,"end":9920.185,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":9937.728,"end":9942.092,"text":"司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":9958.746,"end":9963.168,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":9983.816,"end":10010.984,"text":"請教一個問題,這也是最近看到新聞上面有講,我們才剛剛由賴清德總統請我們謝明洋大法官來擔任代理司法院院長,據報導是說這個代理司法院院長竟然就解編了副院長跟秘書長室的人,請問是不是真有這回事?"},{"start":10012.159,"end":10016.203,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":10037.85,"end":10058.162,"text":"其實對我們來講是從旁會感受到是不是賴總統已經打算不再提名這個司法院院長或司法院院長副院長他是不是已經有在心理準備反正呢就算是這批大法官司法院長副院長大法官人選不通過他也不再提名了"},{"start":10059.082,"end":10059.822,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案。"},{"start":10077.881,"end":10101.836,"text":"公文報告因為我們希望說不會很久所以所以既然不會很久既然做這樣的事情這不是讓人家就覺得此地無銀三百兩好像在賣總統就認為說打就鐵了心好反正這批大法官立法院不同意通過他也擺爛也就不再提名啊這個其實這問題很嚴重啦我當然這個回去可能要跟這個謝院長講說他是代理院長"},{"start":10108.393,"end":10132.85,"text":"代理院長基本上就是守成不要做這麼大幅度的這業務變動好像變成說這個會讓人家認為說他他不是看起來大法官沒通過這個這個就是最有力的就是這個謝院長因為他就可以一直代理院長下去這樣給大家社會觀真不好"},{"start":10134.599,"end":10134.979,"text":"審法法庭公開書狀規則出了很大的問題,"},{"start":10163.446,"end":10186.12,"text":"憲法法庭怎麼可以說是只公佈人家的這個訴訟答辯狀等等的這書狀只公佈10頁然後剩下人家寫了很多的都不公開後來大概也是因為有壓力所以你們才全文公開但是我認為你們應該要檢討這個公開書狀規則同時在整個憲法訴訟法的這個受理要件上面也要重新進行檢討到底少數委員能夠申請釋憲的條件"},{"start":10193.001,"end":10217.053,"text":"申請機關、申請釋憲的要件。這是應該都要具體寫清楚。對不對?我們認為說過去曲中立大法官他寫了很多論文還有在他所做的判決裡面我們都按照他的意思寫說這些條件都不應該受理的。結果全部都被推翻。這代表什麼?這代表我們憲法訴訟法訂的不夠明確。"},{"start":10223.925,"end":10241.578,"text":"所以本席希望你們這個在下個會期就是應該要積極的提出憲法訴訟法的修法要將這個可以申請憲法訴訟的各個要件不管是少數委員少數立法委員的提起申請事件要件還有各機關還有機關爭議的就申請要件都應該要"},{"start":10249.773,"end":10267.741,"text":"提案來修法。」那麼現在我覺得我的手腳其實比你們快。如果你們不趕快提的話,到時候我修法的時候你們又不要說我是毀憲亂政好不好?那就麻煩你們要盡快修。那以上的這個我剛剛列在PPT上面的四個問題也麻煩司法院在兩週之內提出書面報告給我,謝謝。好,謝謝翁委員、謝謝黃秘書長、王院長等人。"},{"start":10275.572,"end":10279.654,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10304.957,"end":10306.298,"text":"請黃副秘書長。副秘書長,我首先先問你一個問題,你什麼時候要離開這個位置?我們的派令是12月2號。12月2號?主席,你做到12月2號,誰要替你代替?你都代代代,全部都是代。"},{"start":10330.752,"end":10332.354,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案 案。"},{"start":10355.387,"end":10356.528,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案 案。"},{"start":10385.816,"end":10412.987,"text":"在今年的10月28,不到一個月以前,國道3號的香山路段發生了一個重大的交通事故。一輛的大型連結車,它疑似這個票駕駛,追撞前方正在大排長龍要下交流道的車輛,兩個人死亡,五個人重傷。請問,若這些被害人提起民事訴訟,法院是用什麼程序審理?"},{"start":10418.736,"end":10437.374,"text":"交通事件的民事訴訟是用什麼程序處理?這麼重大的交通事故是用簡易程序處理,那簡易程序跟普通程序、通常程序有什麼不同?"},{"start":10439.773,"end":10467.17,"text":"那個檢疫程序當然當然他的程序會比較快速但是比較希望說比較快速那當然法律有規定說停期應該要原則上一停但實際上面實務上面大概做不到但是他的那個審理的這個嚴密程度就實務上的操作其實跟普通訴訟並沒有差距到好你說這個檢疫程序跟通常程序訴訟上是沒有差別的"},{"start":10468.07,"end":10479,"text":"規定上是沒有差別的。然後你認為這個審理的程序是比較快的,是這樣子嗎?下一任的副秘書長是這樣子嗎?制度上是如此,理想很豐滿,現實很骨感。有理想是很好的,但實務面真的是如此嗎?副秘書長下一任的。"},{"start":10499.083,"end":10523.103,"text":"檢疫程序本來它的設計是一個分源就是說分流分流的一個制度就是讓比較簡易簡單的可以就是一個快速程序解決那確實就是說在之前民事訴訟法修法之後把所有的交通事件全部全部檢疫而且是你們提的修法案110年通過現在我們發現司法院提了很多修法案"},{"start":10523.783,"end":10527.765,"text":"造成實務面試很難執行而且造成很多的困擾包括我之前一直不斷在講的整個醫療糾紛的鑑定的制度現在沒有一個醫生沒有一個醫事單位沒有一個醫學院沒有一個這個學會願意幫這個車禍糾紛鑑定造成車禍案件審理停擺而到現在已經七八個月了都沒有人有辦法解決"},{"start":10550.478,"end":10552.42,"text":"函送當事人相當大的權益。」而現在我要講這個香山這個個案同樣的意思就是說你們都認為說這個行政訴訟法第4331條的規定檢疫訴訟程序不要忘了法院應以一次期日辯論終結為原則所以只開一次庭欸兩位副秘書長"},{"start":10575.262,"end":10578.749,"text":"一個重大傷亡的交通事件需要調查多少事情?"},{"start":10581.26,"end":10607.739,"text":"如果說這個造勢責任在形式上沒有完全確定或是當事人還有異議法院都還要再送這個鑑定單位鑑定而鑑定單位有這麼多有大陸交通鑑定委員會有出審有復議還有警察大學等等都需要時間而你們司法院卻把所有一切的交通事故都以開一次庭為原則"},{"start":10608.84,"end":10611.844,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案 案件及財務行政事件審理法草案案 案件及財務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":10628.151,"end":10650.788,"text":"公務員報告齁,那民事中法的那個條文雖然規定一次停為原則,但是它只是原則。以交通案件實務上面來講的話,應該是很難一次就結。好,那你告訴我,你提供的資料,你說交通案件很難一次審理就結案,你來提供這修法以後,"},{"start":10651.468,"end":10673.462,"text":"所有的交通案件開超過一次的、所有的開超過一次、一次沒有結的資料通通送給我。」我為什麼會講這個勒?你們這一些爭點要釐清,絕對不是開一次點可以結束。你自己的回答相當也這麼認為。可是呢,實務面這個真的是這樣子嗎?我要再提醒你一次喔。"},{"start":10674.122,"end":10676.647,"text":"全國各法院檢議庭的分案量每一個法官平均一個月要負擔幾件?"},{"start":10685.458,"end":10710.688,"text":"各個法院不太一致,但是有的不太一致。平均大概約略,100件跑不掉吧。扣除銀行請求的信用卡債務的案件,每個法官的負荷還是很重。你們把原來普通庭辦理的交通事件藉由修法全部都推給檢議庭的法官去辦理,那你們做了什麼配套?你們還做了什麼配套?配套在哪裡?"},{"start":10712.756,"end":10714.177,"text":"法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":10742.896,"end":10745.479,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案 案件,並且審查司法院函請審理法草案 案件,並且審查司法院組"},{"start":10753.041,"end":10775.309,"text":"檢疫庭法官幾乎都不調查證據,因為你們一開一次庭為原則。法官就算想要調查證據,也是心有餘而力不足。」所以你們一直在強調說比較快,我就不知道。那我再問你,如果說重大的交通案件,當事人可以申請改用通常程序嗎?"},{"start":10777.512,"end":10780.275,"text":"第二項訴訟案情較複雜或其訴訟標的金額或價額逾越第一項所定額數十倍以上者。"},{"start":10796.152,"end":10822.148,"text":"法院得依當事人申請以裁定改用通常程序並由原法官繼續審理。」請問我第一個問題請問這一個條文裡面講的是第一項所定額的數十倍以上數十倍是幾倍才可以改用通常程序這是申請人申請就可以改了還是還必須要由你們去裁定"},{"start":10823.217,"end":10841.404,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":10853.908,"end":10864.3,"text":"審說的這個樣子,看起來好像有這個程序自主權,事實上是沒有了。我想這部分其實個案的情形不太一樣。如果說審議一個單純當政的審議要準確。數十倍到底是幾倍?"},{"start":10871.941,"end":10878.745,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":10902.032,"end":10930.447,"text":"五百萬以上的人的傷亡才是傷亡,五百萬以下的就一審結案,人民有貴賤之分嗎?不要全部多少案件,一審結案多少,然後申請通常程序審理的有多少,成功的多少,"},{"start":10931.82,"end":10932.92,"text":"法律扶助基金會114年度預算書案。」"},{"start":10952.589,"end":10981.047,"text":"理想很棒但執行起來可能嗎?你們弄這種規定是誰辦得到?你們的法官辦得到?簡易庭的法官辦得到嗎?你們要由原法官繼續審理都已經改用通常程序了為什麼這案子不是交給普通法院去審理?其實這個是當初在研修的時候要由原法官繼續審理當然會避免一個問題"},{"start":10982.068,"end":10983.669,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案 案 。"},{"start":11010.437,"end":11012.459,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":11028.795,"end":11050.908,"text":"哪一個簡怡婷的法官會搬石頭砸自己的腳啦?我簡怡婷乾單開事情結案的我要把它改成通常程序然後還要照一般程序處理然後製造自己的困擾最後改通常程序審理還是自己要審理?得起來簡怡婷的法官有這種時間有這種能力有這麼佛心來者的有嗎?"},{"start":11057.418,"end":11062.082,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團"},{"start":11069.451,"end":11077.315,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審議"},{"start":11096.486,"end":11104.91,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":11120.542,"end":11146.955,"text":"應該是這樣講啊我這個例子是這樣子我來看一下這個例子比如說醫院鑑定報告說被害人失能比例是50%那簡一庭的法官看錯了他在判決判成是20%請問這個被害人能不能用這個理由說法院對證據看錯然後這個進行二審甚至上訴到第三審最高法院可不可以"},{"start":11148.595,"end":11151.239,"text":"函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審議"},{"start":11163.635,"end":11184.105,"text":"民事訴訟法第436條之二第一項規定對於檢疫訴訟程序之第二審裁判其上訴利益於第466條所定之額數者,當事人僅得以其適用法規,嫌有錯誤為理由,竟向最高法院提起上訴或看告。"},{"start":11185.666,"end":11186.206,"text":"禁以其引用的法規,顯有錯誤為理由。」"},{"start":11208.114,"end":11211.396,"text":"一般案則上述第三選的規定是民事訴訟法第469條有效的各款情形之一者其判決當然違背法令"},{"start":11232.546,"end":11245.136,"text":"判決法院之組織不合法、依法律或裁判應迴避之法官參與裁判、法院與審判權之有無辨別不當或違背專屬管轄之規定等等等等。」但這裡面就沒有我們講的這一種。"},{"start":11247.278,"end":11251.741,"text":"我同樣的請你回去立刻發函給全國各地方法院各法院的所有全部的法官所有這種證據看錯的檢疫判決也可以上訴到第三層也就是最高法院好不好我要你發了兩個文喔"},{"start":11278.973,"end":11285.295,"text":"函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院組函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院組函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院組函送財團法律扶助基金會審查司法院組函送財團法律"},{"start":11310.217,"end":11331.387,"text":"主席我已經忘了我剛才第一個問他什麼沒關係我可以回去再調那個副秘書長意思是說怎麼去發文這個部分要研議不是說內容要研議怎麼發文怎麼發文怎麼會需要研議應該是內容你困難的地方是我剛才要你發文的內容你要研議啦你的困難在那裡"},{"start":11333.387,"end":11358.015,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法�"},{"start":11363.253,"end":11369.456,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會114年度審查司法院函送財團法人法律扶助基金會"},{"start":11385.982,"end":11397.148,"text":"審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院第11屆第2會期司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律審查司法院函送財團法律"},{"start":11414.477,"end":11439.109,"text":"但你要想配套在哪裡?真的有配套嗎?你們真的有資源進來嗎?真的可行嗎?那如果不可行,像你們醫療糾紛鑑定就擺爛擺在那裡幾百個當事人的案件沒有辦法審理所以我們講說交通事故的案件的民事訴訟也需要發現真實涉及人民傷亡的賠償案件"},{"start":11441.03,"end":11441.29,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案 案 。"},{"start":11457.277,"end":11475.323,"text":"檢議庭的法官真的會允許他改通常程序審理然後自己繼續審嗎?真的有這種法官嗎?難怪幾個檢議庭的法官其實不做了你知道嗎?真的檢議庭有好幾個法官不認錯啊你知道嗎?"},{"start":11477.336,"end":11498.106,"text":"人家法官也覺得說於心不忍這跟他當時要成為一個法官的初衷相違背只因為你們認為這樣的制度是好的有效率的那這樣子可以快速解決的可是不事實上你犧牲的是當事人的權益啊"},{"start":11499.158,"end":11509.649,"text":"包括依舊的訴訟的修法也是一樣我認為你們講的有道理啊可是現實面離法律界跟醫界都要鬥法"},{"start":11510.796,"end":11528.511,"text":"台灣社會兩大自然主、社會主的最精英。你們在那裡鬥法犧牲的是人民的權益,擺爛在那裡。這樣走都不對,但是各位,副秘書長要離開了,代理副秘書,抱歉,是真正的未來的副秘書長。"},{"start":11530.032,"end":11530.573,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案 案。"},{"start":11546.232,"end":11570.217,"text":"沒有秘書長然後再代理在一個副秘書長要離開再換一個副秘書長讓大家審法案審預算我不知道在審想當然有一部分的責任是立法院要承擔因為立法院沒有盡快的行使我們院長和副院長的這一個人事的審查所以一部分責任我們當然知道是我們要承擔立法院要承擔但是呢我們講了這個你如果有院長新的來了副院長來了"},{"start":11574.378,"end":11594.958,"text":"秘書長也闡出了,你們可以在這一個事情上面願意多想想、多思考怎麼解決嗎?願意嗎?打著改革的旗幟,做出來的人民沒有受益,反而為盟其利先受其害,這才是大問題喔,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員,謝謝黃秘書長,謝謝王院長。"},{"start":11598.391,"end":11605.864,"text":"財務行政事件審理法草案案案 案 二、審查司法院函送財團法人法律審理法草案案 案 二、審查司法院審理法草案案 案"},{"start":11613.52,"end":11640.505,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。委員羅志強、審法會、謝榮介所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。那麼,討論事項第一、二案之預算案,報告及詢答完畢,作如下決議。"},{"start":11642.278,"end":11653.326,"text":"軍令定期繼續審查。審查會委員針對本日議程所列討論事項之預算提案,請於12月2日星期一中午12時前送交本會。"},{"start":11654.554,"end":11675.353,"text":"第12案預算案之列席人員可先行離席,先處理會議時間,上午會議時間繼續進行至討論事項第三四案提案條文宣讀完畢為止。」那麼我們接著進行討論事項第三四案,僅進行法案提案條文之宣讀,預計35分鐘。"},{"start":11677.415,"end":11700.494,"text":"那麼相關機關列行人員如另有要工處理可自行斟酌離席請議事人員一併宣讀法案所有提案條文。討論事項第一案稅務行政事件審理法草案司法院提案名稱稅務行政事件審理法第一條為促進程序經濟徹底"},{"start":11702.912,"end":11725.213,"text":"妥適專業解決稅務爭議,以有效保障納稅者權利,並維護依法及公平課稅原則特制定本法﹐一、二條本法所稱稅務行政事件,細指下列事件,依涉及財政部或稅政機關,依各稅法海關起司條例,"},{"start":11725.854,"end":11749.348,"text":"稅條約、租稅協定或地方稅捐製制條例所為行政處分或其他公權利措施之爭議。二、因前款行政處分或其他公權利措施之行政執行所生之爭議。三、涉及前二款爭議之行政程序法第128條程序重開事件。四、其他"},{"start":11750.769,"end":11773.322,"text":"依法律規定或經司法院指定由稅務專業法庭審理之事件與前項事件相牽連之行政訴訟事件得與其合併起訴或與其訴訟系數中為追加或提起反訴但專屬於其他行政法院管轄者不得為之。"},{"start":11774.062,"end":11802.645,"text":"依前項規定合併起訴追加或提起反訴,行政法院認為不符合其要件者,應分別審理。」第三條,前條事件之審理,依本法之規定,本法未規定者適用行政訴訟法及其他法律之規定。第四條,而依租稅法享有權利或負擔義務者有當事人能力,中央及地方機關亦有當事人能力。"},{"start":11804.102,"end":11817.211,"text":"第五條經訴院程序之稅務行政訴訟,以原處分機關為被告,但訴院決定第一次侵害第三人之權利或法律上立者,以訴院決定機關為被告。"},{"start":11819.38,"end":11834.835,"text":"第六條,稅捐計政機關作成行政處分因受其他行政機關就具體事件所為之事實認定或法律適用之拘束時,行政法院於必要時應命行政機關輔助一照參加訴訟,並適用行政訴訟關於輔助參加之規定。"},{"start":11840.151,"end":11858.832,"text":"第七條,高等行政法院高等行政訴訟庭管轄之通常訴訟程序第一審稅務行政事件及程序進行中所深之其他事件,因委任律師為訴訟代理人,並適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理時規定。"},{"start":11861.075,"end":11877.644,"text":"前項事件送命法官刑準備程序時,準用行政訴訟法第49條之一第四項、第八項。第49條之二第一項關於行政法院或審判長權限制規定。第八條測銷訴訟之程序標的。"},{"start":11882.04,"end":11910.539,"text":"為經覆查訴院決定所維持之課稅處分財罰處分或其他不利處分,但於第五條單書之情形以訴院決定為撤銷訴訟之程序標的。第九條,其訴因因訴院類型以訴狀表明下列各款事項,提出於行政法院為之一、撤銷訴訟,一、當事人,二、起訴之聲明,三、原處分,其經覆查或訴院程序者,"},{"start":11912.822,"end":11914.505,"text":"該複查決定或書院決定"},{"start":11915.876,"end":11938.191,"text":"事件審理法草案案案件及其內容。四、繼續審查司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會114年度中央政府總預算案關於司法院函送財團法律扶助基金會"},{"start":11947.598,"end":11958.112,"text":"4、訴請確認之原因事實5、確認利益4、一般起訴訴訟1、當事人2、起訴之聲明3、訴請起訴之公法上依據及原因事實"},{"start":11963.813,"end":11979.702,"text":"訴狀內遺記載適用程序上有關事項、證據方法及其他準備言辭辯論之事項並附具相關之申請書、處分書及決定書。第十條原處分或決定之執行除法律令有規定外不應提起行政訴訟而停止。"},{"start":11980.422,"end":11999.417,"text":"行政訴訟起訴前或系署中有下列情形之一者,行政法院得依申請裁定停止執行。一、原處分或決定之合法性顯有疑義。二、原告之訴在法律上非顯無理由,而原處分或決定之執行將發生難以回復之損害。"},{"start":12001.124,"end":12017.545,"text":"且有急迫情勢並其執行非為維護重大公益所必要,前項情形,行政法院於必要時得依申請或依職權命向原處分機關提供擔保後停止執行。第二項申請"},{"start":12018.946,"end":12034.204,"text":"與行政訴訟系屬前請與行政機關拒絕停止執行申請之全部部分時使得為之,但有下列情形之一者不在此限。一、對於停止執行之申請,行政機關位於相當期限內作成決定。二、行政執行"},{"start":12035.385,"end":12059.026,"text":"即將開始或執行中,三、對於剝奪或消滅資格權利或命停止營業之處分,申請停止執行。行政法院為前三項裁定前應先徵詢當事人之意見,停止執行之裁定得停止原處分或決定之效力,處分或決定之執行或程序之續行之全部或已。"},{"start":12059.767,"end":12074.406,"text":"部分本與基礎處分作成之後續處分應一併停止執行。行政法院並得就後續處分之停止執行,依申請向原處分機關提供擔保。請向所稱基礎處分細指對課徵處分、財罰處分"},{"start":12078.251,"end":12101.389,"text":"或其他租稅上金錢給付處分有拘束力之行政處分。」第六項情形原處分或決定與全部或部分執行或實現者,除執行標的物以拍賣或變賣於第三人或有其他依法或性質上不能回復原狀之情事外,行政法院得依申請撤銷全部或部分以執行之程序或實現之行為,並密執行機關為"},{"start":12105.472,"end":12121.343,"text":"為回復原狀之必要處置。必要時亦得命申請人向原處分機關提供擔保,但申請人經依依法扣繳或佔繳之稅而不再回復原狀之範圍。第二項停止執行之效力不影響稅捐計政機關就課稅處分。"},{"start":12124.385,"end":12144.325,"text":"財劃處分或其他租稅法上金錢及副處分之保全措施,行政法院裁定原處分或決定停止執行之期間不得課徵滯納金,單因就下列期間依各年度1月1日郵政儲金一年期定期儲金固定利率,按日加計利息一併徵收。"},{"start":12147.1,"end":12157.448,"text":"並准用稅捐基徵法、關稅法及其他有關法律之規定,依已徵起稅款者自退還日期至填發補繳"},{"start":12160.187,"end":12182.421,"text":"稅款繳納通知書之日起。二、未徵期稅款者自該稅款原因繳納期間屆滿之次日起至填發補繳稅款繳納通知書之日止。第六項情形稅捐基金機關人得作成後續處分並得依法為保全措施。"},{"start":12184.5,"end":12212.495,"text":"第11條行政法院依依職權調查事實關係不受當事人事實主張及證據聲明之拘束。前項調查當事人應協力為之,審判長應注意,使當事人得為事實上及法律上適當完全之辯論。審判長應向當事人發問或告知,令其陳述事實、聲明、證據或為其他必要之聲明及陳述。"},{"start":12213.115,"end":12227.529,"text":"其所申明陳述或訴願類型有不明瞭或不完主者,應令其序名或補充之,陪其法官告明審判長後得向當事人發問或告知。」第十二條"},{"start":12228.69,"end":12245.63,"text":"當事人就與裁判有關之事實應為事實及完全之陳述,對於他照當事人所提出之事實及證據應為陳述,行政法院為認定事實得命納稅醫務人或其代表人、管理人其他代表權"},{"start":12246.671,"end":12275.277,"text":"其他有代表權之人提出其依法應提供稅捐計政機關或其他主管機關之資料。該資料為納稅義務人之資源、受護人或從業人員所持有者一同。行政法院得命前向之人或受其委託保管之第三人提出於境外而與課稅事實有關之必要資料如該資料已提供於境外政府者應提出其副本但命受託人提供之資料已無法自"},{"start":12276.237,"end":12301.865,"text":"納稅一人取得者違憲。行政法院對持有前二項資料之人無正當理由不從提出之命者,於必要時得以裁定為強制處分。行政訴訟法第169條對於第三人處罰還之規定亦適用之。前項裁定得為抗告,抗告中應停止執行"},{"start":12302.905,"end":12328.159,"text":"原處分機關對於訴訟系署中之稅務行政事件依法所負責調查事實之義務,不受稅務行政訴訟程序進行之影響。第13條,行政法院認為必要時得依職權詢問當事人,當事人受合法之通知,無證當理由不到場,得以裁定處新台幣3萬元以下罰還,並得再次獻"},{"start":12331.341,"end":12351.813,"text":"並得在現期命期到場,當事人與其人不到場者得案次處罰。當事人為法人或非法人團體、其代表人、管理人或其他有代表權人受行政法院制裁定或命令到場者,適用前項規定。前項規定之人與實際負責業務之人不同時,以實際負責業務之人為準。第一項及第二項"},{"start":12359.195,"end":12374.838,"text":"第1項及第2項基法還財定得為抗告,抗告中應停止執行。第14條對租稅法律關係依法有協力義務之當事人或依法因為當事人履行協力義務之人不得因其"},{"start":12376.67,"end":12397.655,"text":"有受刑事追訴或處罰之危險而拒絕履行協力義務。稅捐基金機關或行政法院知其前向之人,如為陳述或提出資料有致其受刑事追訴或處罰之危險時不得以強制執行之方法,促使其為之。第15條行政訴訟法第145條規定"},{"start":12400.729,"end":12417.576,"text":"與為當事人履行協力義務之人不適用之為當事人履行協力義務之人如已成名其為證言有致其受刑事追訴或處罰之危險且經行政法院任務不當時不適用行政訴訟法第148條才處罰還之規定。第16條前二條以外之人"},{"start":12426.485,"end":12448.304,"text":"如違證言有致自己或下列之人受刑事追訴或處罰為險時得拒絕證言,依其前配偶或四親等內之血親、三親等內之姻親或曾有此親屬關係或與其定有婚約者,而其監護人或受監護人,依前項規定,得拒絕證言者、審判長依於詢問前"},{"start":12454.429,"end":12470.022,"text":"落知有該向情形時告知之。」第17條稅捐激增機關或其他機關以強盜、脅迫、詐欺、疲勞、訓問、違法羈押或其他補正方法取得這證據不得作為課稅處分。"},{"start":12472.123,"end":12489.886,"text":"財法處分及其他不利處分之依據、前項規定以外之情形、稅政基金機關或其他機關違反法規取得之證據、因斟酌各法規之保護意旨、違法情節之輕重及確保租稅正確、公平克徵之公義。」"},{"start":12491.027,"end":12518.545,"text":"以決定得補作為課稅處分、裁罰處分及其他不利處分之依據。」第18條當事人提出之攻擊或防禦方法,除別有規定外,依依訴訟進行程度與言辭辯論終結前之適當時期提出之。當事人未於適當時期提出之攻擊或防禦方法,行政法院應駁回之,但有下列情形之意則不在此限。"},{"start":12519.506,"end":12542.806,"text":"一、其提出不慎研製訴訟。二、因不可規則於當事人之事由,不能於事當時其提出。三、因其他情形顯示公平。前項灌輸第二項事由,當事人應示明知。當事人或為當事人保管證據之第三人,經審判長或受命法官定相當期間命提出證據。"},{"start":12544.782,"end":12561.19,"text":"並告知預期提出之失權效果後,仍未遵其提出者,是為未於適當時期提出,當事人於行政法院實體判決確定後,不得基於一第二項駁回職工集會防禦方法,"},{"start":12562.918,"end":12584.678,"text":"令行起訴請求返還同一課稅事件是一繳稅款。第19條,原告於課稅處分或其他諸稅法上金錢及負處分之撤銷訴訟中,得追繳補充或變更足以減少課稅處分和定之稅額或其他"},{"start":12586.039,"end":12605.582,"text":"租稅法上金錢給付金額之適由,被告得於前項訴訟中追加補充或變更主理維持課稅處分合併之稅額或其他租稅法上金錢給付金額之適由,除前二項情形外,行政法院亦得於原告"},{"start":12607.731,"end":12621.723,"text":"行政法院預得與原告訴之聲明範圍內依職權斟酌其他主理減少或維持課稅處分和定之稅額或其他諸稅法上金錢及付金額之事由。第20條稅權計政機關於訴願決定送達後"},{"start":12625.786,"end":12642.235,"text":"或低審測銷訴訟系數中就同一課稅事件另行作成新處分,以取代變更課稅處分或其他諸稅法上金錢及副處分者,無須經複查程序及訴願程序。"},{"start":12643.035,"end":12662.202,"text":"及取代原處分成為撤銷訴訟之程序標的前項情形稅捐基金機關應下列規定辦理。一、作成處分前給予當事人陳述意見之機會並充分告知其事實及法律上理由。二、作成處分時並就增加合併稅額並填發繳納期間為三個月之"},{"start":12667.684,"end":12688.098,"text":"稅款繳納通知書送達當事人並准用稅捐基金法第39條第二項關於賺款執行之規定。稅捐基金機關應將第一項之新處分一併通知訴送系屬之行政法院並檢附作成新處分之理由及聽取當事人陳述意見之回應。"},{"start":12689.039,"end":12702.987,"text":"有下列情形之一者准用前三項規定。一、原處分經更正或轉換。二、重新做成處分取代無效或不生效力之原處分。前四項規定,於課與義務訴訟准用之。"},{"start":12707.148,"end":12735.749,"text":"第21條於上訴審程序不得為數字變更追加或提起反訴但稅捐基金機關就同一課稅事件另行作成新處分以取代或變更課稅處分或其他租稅法上金錢給付處分者準用前條之規定。傾向但書情形上訴審法院因廢棄原判決並將該事件發回或"},{"start":12737.308,"end":12766.317,"text":"發交管轄之第一審行政法院,但有下列情形之一者不在此縣,因依行政訴訟法第253條行言辭辯論,而依行政訴訟法第259條因自為判決,三、其他上訴審法院任訴訟達與可為裁判程度之情形。第二十二條,課稅處分或其他租稅上金錢給付處分,刑事確定後,"},{"start":12768.036,"end":12784.746,"text":"稅捐基金機關令為增加金額這變更處分者人民訴請撤交變更處分之範圍以變更處分新增金額之事由違憲。前項情形不影響人民依稅捐基金法第28條或行政程序法第128條申請之權利。第23條當事人就該"},{"start":12791.272,"end":12811.839,"text":"當事人就核定稅額或其他租稅法上金錢給付之後續處分提起撤銷訴訟者,不得於該訴訟就基礎處分,歸置之事項為真理,但難以期待當事人於法定期間內就基礎處分提起行政究記者不在此限。」"},{"start":12812.939,"end":12828.988,"text":"前項辦書規定之情形適用第六條之規定。第二十四條前五條規定與防範處分之稅務行政事件適用之。第二十五條行政法任於必要時得命稅務審查官執行下列職務。"},{"start":12831.378,"end":12859.117,"text":"一、審查校對帳部憑證、會計記錄、財務報表、業務文書或其他資料。二、協助法院就課稅基礎數額為推計。三、為釐清稅務或會計之事實上或法律上事項。基於專業之事對當事人、證人或鑑定人為說明或發問。四、其他法官交辦之事務。行政法院因稅務審查官提供而獲知"},{"start":12859.817,"end":12881.194,"text":"之特殊專業之事因與當事人辯護之機會,使得裁為裁判之基礎。前二項關於法院權限之規定與受命法官行準備程序時準用之稅務審查官之違避準用行政訴訟法官與法官迴避之規定。第二十六條,行政法院為"},{"start":12883.456,"end":12905.917,"text":"行政法院為裁判時,應斟酌全辯論意旨及調查證據之結果,依理論及經驗法則判斷事實之真偽,等於核實課稅原則計算課稅基礎之數額,但別有規定者從其規定。行政法院之調查以證明當事人有課稅之事實,"},{"start":12907.438,"end":12923.554,"text":"就課稅基礎數額之計算或證明經調查仍不能確定或調查費用過去時,為維護課稅公平原則得依法為推計。前向情形,行政法院依本於客觀合理式原則,依最能切盡時額之方法,"},{"start":12928.382,"end":12947.06,"text":"斟酌下列事項為之並給予當事人表示意見之機會但法律就推計方法另有規定者從其規定一、同意當事人過去交易或經營之實際狀況及查得資料二、當地或全國類似規模之同業在一般情形中"},{"start":12948.735,"end":12966.842,"text":"一、該同業經營所能獲得之經營成果範圍。該範圍得以主管機關公開之行業或同業利潤統計數據資料為基準。三、同一或同種商品或服務在市場中一般情形下之交易售價。"},{"start":12968.703,"end":12988.719,"text":"銷售收入得以市場中最高價格計算,成本費用得以市場中最低價格計算,四、其他符合實際交易或經營成果可為參考之價格或認定基準。行政法院就課稅基礎之數額與應納稅額之計算應審酌一切情況,於當事人聲明不符之範圍內。"},{"start":12994.932,"end":13000.89,"text":"依所得新政定之,並於判決記名得新政之理由。」"},{"start":13002.725,"end":13028.173,"text":"第27條行政法院認同原處分復查決定或訴願決定之理由者於裁判中引用之。第28條行政法院認稅捐基金機關所作成之罰還處分有裁量違法事由時得自為免罰或裁罰之決定而撤銷或變更罰還處分之全部或一部。"},{"start":13029.619,"end":13045.398,"text":"第29條行政處分違法致侵害原告權利或法律上利益。行政法院因撤銷原處分、複查決定及訴院決定但原處分為裁量處分而訴院決定違反"},{"start":13045.999,"end":13060.847,"text":"重要程序規定且經原告陳明影響其救濟程序利益者,行政法院得通知訴院決定機關參加訴訟後,撤銷訴院決定移送於訴院管轄機關。"},{"start":13062.748,"end":13082.839,"text":"原告請求變更課稅處分核定之稅額,其他諸任法上金錢給付之金額或基礎處分確認之數額者。行政法院得變更為其他稅額、金額或數額。行政法院自行認定前項稅額、金額或數額所需。"},{"start":13084.721,"end":13099.099,"text":"勞費過巨者,得於判決理由中序名原處分違法認定或漏未認定之事實或法律關係,並稅捐基金機關依判決意旨重新計算之。」"},{"start":13100.7,"end":13124.117,"text":"訴訟事件符合下列情形者,行政法院得警測校園處分,復查決定及訴院決定,並於裁判理由中序名發回稅捐基金機關另為處分,一是實,仍有查明之必要,且由行政法院調查顯有困難,二考量當事人利益發回稅捐基金機關,另為查明更為適當。"},{"start":13127.301,"end":13154.207,"text":"第30條,行政法院依前條規定撤銷員處分,於稅權基金機關遵照判決意旨令為處分之前,得依申請人以為之保全或執行措施做成暫時性處置之裁定。第31條,訴訟標的於確定之終局判決中,經裁判者有確定力。"},{"start":13156.016,"end":13173.466,"text":"稅捐基金機關因故意或重大過失而未於事實審言辭辯論終結前就足以使稅額增加之事由提出主張或作成變更處分者,不得於判決確定後基於該事實作成補徵稅額處分或提起再審之訴。"},{"start":13174.847,"end":13190.522,"text":"納稅因人因故意或重大過時而位於事實審言辭辯論終結前,就足以使稅額減少之事由提出,主張者不得於判決確定後基於該事由請求退稅或提起再審之訴。"},{"start":13192.505,"end":13208.004,"text":"第32條本法施行前已細數而尚未終結之稅務行政事件除別有規定外適用本法規定第7條、第9條、第18條、第26條、第3項及前條規定於本法施行前已起訴之訴"},{"start":13210.353,"end":13232.247,"text":"已起訴之稅務行政事件不適用之第29條及第30條規定與本法施行前已經事實審言辭辯論終結之稅務行政事件不適用之第10條規定與本法施行前已經低審裁定之申請停止執行事件不適用之第20條至第22條規定"},{"start":13236.54,"end":13250.431,"text":"與本法施行前做成之課稅處分,其他諸稅法上金錢及付處分及罰還處分不適用之。」第33條本法施行日期由行政院定之。"},{"start":13253.84,"end":13273.096,"text":"法部分條文修正草案 司法院提案第五條除第一項條文中復表一二修正為復表一復表二第二項條文中司法事務官後增訂稅務審查官以外其餘未修正"},{"start":13274.403,"end":13287.976,"text":"令修正附表一及附表二如後附。第十條除第三項第三句修正為依相關法令聘用或約用專業人員"},{"start":13290.796,"end":13314.161,"text":"第五項第二具聚首的經聘用修正為一第三項規定。第六項條文中,零聘辦法修正為零用辦法外其餘未修正。第十條之一刪除,第十條之二刪除。第十五條,除第三項第三具修正為一相關法令聘用或約用專業人員。"},{"start":13316.121,"end":13331.679,"text":"第五項第二巨巨首的經聘用修正為一第三項規定。第六項首巨中的臨聘辦法修正為臨用辦法外其餘未修正。第四章之一章明"},{"start":13332.479,"end":13353.917,"text":"司法事務官及稅務審查官之配製,第20條之一,各級行政法院設司法事務官室至司法事務官或稅務審查官,均兼任第七職等至第九職等,和競賽二人以上者至主任司法事務官一人,兼任第九職等至檢任第十職等。"},{"start":13355.509,"end":13384.352,"text":"前向司法事務官以具有財經稅務或會計專業者為縣具律師職業資格者擔任司法事務官期間記錄其律師職業年資,並向稅務審查官於業務需要時得依聘用人員相關法令聘用或戒掉具有財稅專業人員充任其臨聘及戒掉辦法由司法院定之。第二是條之二"},{"start":13385.413,"end":13403.008,"text":"司法事務官辦理下列事務,一、辦理行政訴訟事件之資料收集,分析及提供稅務財經金融會計專業意見。二、會診起訴及答辯要旨,分析卷證資料整理事實及法律意義,並製作報告書。"},{"start":13405.55,"end":13416.973,"text":"三、依法參與訴訟及調解程序四、其他法律鎖定或法官交辦之事務稅務審查官辦理下列事務依審查核對帳部憑證、會計記錄、財務報表、業務文書或其他資料"},{"start":13424.815,"end":13449.731,"text":"二、協助法院就課稅基礎數額為推計、三、為釐清稅務或會計之事實上或法律上事項、基於專業知識對當事人、證人或鑑定人為說明或發問。四、其他法律所定或法官交辦之事務。司法事務官辦理第一項各款事件之範圍及日期,由司法院定之。"},{"start":13450.632,"end":13467.297,"text":"第20條之三,稅務審查官應就具有下列資格之一,必有擬任職務任用資格者任用之一現於或曾於財政部各地區國稅局及地方稅"},{"start":13469.175,"end":13483.982,"text":"地方稅基徵機關以下合稱稅捐基徵機關從事稅務工作合計10年以上成績優良並具證明者二、經公立或立案之私立大學"},{"start":13485.851,"end":13514.567,"text":"獨立學院研究所或經教育部承認之外國大學獨立學院研究所畢業具稅務財經金融會計相關系所碩士以上學位現於或曾於稅捐基金機關從事稅務工作合計8年以上成績優良並具證明者前向各款所稱成績優良,系指最近3年考積2年列甲等1年列1等以上且未受刑事懲戒"},{"start":13515.387,"end":13523.251,"text":"或平時考核計過以上處分,並經其服務機關出具證明者,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":13544.838,"end":13545.285,"text":"事件審理法草案案件事件審理法草案案件"},{"start":13574.275,"end":13577.244,"text":"根正根正因為兩天一次會現在是休息抱歉"}]}},{"id":"16304","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16304","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2df2b9a3ee14b9f3efea093030673645f9b104c5adbfed68f71e35088da01e12935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-25","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-25T08:31:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-25T10:31:00+08:00","duration":7194,"影片長度":"01:59:54","委員發言時間":"08:31:06 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我們待會等出席人數足爾 我們再來確認議事錄請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項 邀請國防部報告《獵鴞專案執行規劃》．並備質詢 宣讀完畢好 首先我們在場的委員有陳永康委員今天的專案報告跟預算的案子由國防部長顧立雄率領同仁 我們先介紹部長"},{"start":1877.219,"end":1903.234,"text":"副參謀總長執行官黃志偉上將常務次長楊基隆中將權動署署長白潔龍總督察長是總督察長張元勛參事石文榮政務辦公室主任陳道輝"},{"start":1906.209,"end":1932.853,"text":"政戰局局長陳玉玲軍備局局長林文祥主計局局長謝其賢軍醫局局長蔡建松戰規司司長黃文啟執規司司長鄧克雄法律司司長沈世偉"},{"start":1935.27,"end":1951.855,"text":"整評司司長苗慧芬國防採購事主任趙雅萍人事參謀次長是次長劉佩智情報參謀次長是次長謝日昇作戰及計畫參謀次長是次長陳文新後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔"},{"start":1966.121,"end":1974.647,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩蓮訓次是次長張俊志陸軍參謀長陳建義海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長王德陽後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉縣指部參謀長呂正芳"},{"start":1997.886,"end":2021.652,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長 劉清薰支通電軍指揮部參謀長 陳俊良軍情局執行長 鄧敦仁電展室執行長 許善純國防大學教育長 李承忠中科院院長 李士強"},{"start":2025.128,"end":2039.217,"text":"補充介紹我們到場的委員羅美玲委員我們剛才已經議事錄有宣讀完畢請問在場委員對於上一次會議議事錄有沒有遺漏錯誤或需要更正的地方沒有的話我們議事錄確定"},{"start":2042.912,"end":2068.552,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部報告《獵鴞專案執行規劃》．並備質詢那今天獵鴞專案執行規劃的報告那一併會處理比照過去愛國者三行一樣授權金額在預算數不變的情形下由國防部後續採購本席向我們在場同仁先說明首先我們請顧立雄部長上台報告"},{"start":2078.784,"end":2099.906,"text":"主席：各位委員先進今日應貴委員會邀請就獵鴞專案執行規劃實施專案報告首先感謝各位委員先進長期以來對國防施政的支持與督測,在此致上敬意與謝承為因應中共今世經歷擴張及持續對我軍事威懾等嚴峻挑戰,國軍"},{"start":2101.748,"end":2106.914,"text":"陸軍依國土防衛戰略指導．並藉經二無戰爭經驗．以獵鴞專案對美採購．人員殺傷、彈簧刀300．及反裝甲RTX600等兩型．攻擊無人機飛彈系統．以強化不對稱作戰能力。"},{"start":2119.927,"end":2131.692,"text":"為現階段籌貨之反裝甲型無人機數量尚無法滿足作戰需求,原規劃是國防財力緯度以後續年度再請爭取建案籌貨"},{"start":2136.697,"end":2165.647,"text":"針對本案裝備採購價格,經持續與美方洽商,發價金額已較原資會國會金額大幅下修若能於現階段將各專案部隊反裝甲型無人機需求納案籌貨,除可爭取更有利於我方的售價外亦可縮短後續建案之裝備籌貨期程,有助不對稱戰力建構及防衛作戰任性之提升,敬請各位委員鼎力支持"},{"start":2166.228,"end":2175.307,"text":"接續由陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義中將針對案況向各位委員報告,進行各位委員先進指教與支持。謝謝。"},{"start":2184.147,"end":2199.663,"text":"獵鴞專案執行規劃專案報告主席、各位委員先進以下僅就獵鴞專案需要徵購的原因及預算支應方式提出報告專案的內容獵鴞專案前經大院審查同意執行自113年度起"},{"start":2202.086,"end":2215.598,"text":"尋軍購方式﹚對美採購﹚人員殺傷及反裝甲等兩型攻擊無人機飛彈系統以及相關的支援裝備﹚以提升國軍不對稱戰力﹚滿足地面防衛作戰需求"},{"start":2216.719,"end":2233.15,"text":"執行概況,鑒於攻擊型無人機與俄烏戰爭之優異戰果本部與完成無人機整體運用規劃,再考量急迫性,貨裝期成,美方出估報價及國防財力先行編列預算新台幣60億餘元,優先籌貨滿足戰備急需"},{"start":2237.032,"end":2258.017,"text":"後續是國防財力預渡再行徵購反裝甲型無人機已完備企圖佔領本案前已經大院在112年12月三讀審議通過美方於今年的6月進行智慧國會的程序公告金額為115億餘元為預印後續預算不足以及膠裝騎乘延後等風險本軍因依建案規定"},{"start":2264.958,"end":2287.71,"text":"呈報整體獲得規劃書的修訂作業：並於8月29日奉行政院核定．原列入114年度起．納入預算編列．經我方與美持續洽商及精算後．每方於111年．更正每方於113年8月．分別提供本案兩行裝備發架書．合計55億餘元需求規劃．"},{"start":2293.013,"end":2310.31,"text":"評估當前敵情共軍企圖運用兩棲登陸船團所配備之各式裝甲車輛對我採取正規並非正規登陸奪取臺灣的主要港口、灘岸以及機場以達快速奪臺的目的對我防衛作戰產生嚴重威脅"},{"start":2313.092,"end":2329.804,"text":"國軍為使敵無法成功建立攻勢基地,目前已陸續籌獲、脫勢及標槍飛彈等各式反裝甲武器。另外,依照建構不對稱戰力的指導,籌建獵鴞專案,預計可獲得976套增攻型無人機,其中採購反裝甲型無人機291套具備反裝甲作戰能力,以強化摧毀共軍戰甲車輛的作戰效益。"},{"start":2343.012,"end":2357.657,"text":"藉近二部戰爭的經驗﹐無人機為左右戰場勝負關鍵之一﹐國軍仍需強化地面全重生防衛﹐反裝甲打擊的能力﹐故需增購反裝甲型無人機﹐針對近岸水域"},{"start":2358.297,"end":2360.238,"text":"以獲得不對稱作戰的優勢,強化全眾生防禦能力,提高國土防衛作戰成功公算。"},{"start":2374.484,"end":2400.826,"text":"預期效益反裝甲型無人機滯空時間長導控距離遠其性能結合多重情資獲得的手段以及戰術運用可於敵登陸的進程即時獲知敵對我最危害的行動同時有效擊毀兩棲載具裝甲車輛以及後勤補給設施等重要目標以持續拒止消耗進犯敵軍提升作戰效益"},{"start":2401.627,"end":2420.924,"text":"本案已經完成發嫁書的簽署﹐刻由美方與合約商辦理簽約、備料及產製的作業﹐增購反裝甲型無人機的需求﹐如獲大院同意﹐後續將採修訂原案發嫁書的方式來執行﹐避免重啟建案﹐可以大幅縮短貨裝期程﹐"},{"start":2422.925,"end":2445.204,"text":"徵購的數量除了可以滿足防衛作戰的需求以外﹐亦可藉大量的籌購批量規模﹐與美洽商爭取調降供售價格﹐必力發揮國防預算的最大效益﹐結與﹐面對中共快速奪取臺灣﹐避免外力介入的企圖﹐國軍戰力整建並持有效灰色地帶應儲﹐"},{"start":2446.345,"end":2469.24,"text":"不對稱戰力建構﹚提升後備戰力﹚強化作戰韌性等四個原則﹚增構小型、精準、具成本效益的反裝甲型無人機﹚發揮集中擊打能力﹚結合戰術運用﹚除了符合戰力整建需求﹚亦能在降低採購成本與縮短貨裝騎乘的有利條件下﹚儘速提升國土防衛﹚"},{"start":2469.98,"end":2482.875,"text":"各類型作戰部隊．打擊高價值目標的作戰能力．懇請委員支持本案預算執行．並就完備預算審查程序予以指導．以週延作業程序．報告完畢進行委員指導。"},{"start":2484.468,"end":2488.674,"text":"好,我們請陸軍參謀長請回那今天我們就《獵鴞專案執行規劃》來詢答並備質詢過去我們在愛國者三行購買他的彈體的時候也有類似的情形,也就是"},{"start":2500.211,"end":2500.792,"text":"本會委員6加2分鐘,非本會委員4分鐘"},{"start":2520.055,"end":2540.437,"text":"發言登記截止,如有臨時提案,請各位委員在10點半以前提出,11點左右本席會示發言詢答情形來進行處理。現在首先請羅美玲委員上台質詢。謝謝主席,有請顧部長。來,部長請。"},{"start":2548.673,"end":2548.875,"text":"是 羅勇"},{"start":2550.553,"end":2550.913,"text":"國防部報告 獵鴞專案執行規劃"},{"start":2581.214,"end":2598.651,"text":"當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候我們有沒有去反應怎麼會差距這麼大因為這不是幾千萬美金不是幾億美金而是幾十億美金的這個差價這部分我們當初有去跟他們交涉嗎這部分有沒有雖然說到後來我們在113年8月份的時候呢他的這個發價書是55億美元"},{"start":2605.137,"end":2611.382,"text":"可是這前前後後都是幾十億的落差請問這部分我們當初接到這個115億的這個這個公告的時候我們沒有任何反應說怎麼會差這麼多跟委員報告有的我們在這個原來取得的初估報價就像剛剛委員所講的是60億餘顏那後來這個美國安和局在6月19號進行智慧國會的時候"},{"start":2634.669,"end":2659.175,"text":"變成高達115億元,我們就向美方要求說明價差的這個原因。當初原因是什麼?因為我在這個報數裡面沒看到。那美方是表示說這個價格是綜合計算各項支出的一個最高的一個價格,仍有一個下調的空間,但是我們在編預算的時候為了避免就是說如果簽約軍不足跟為了要預認後續預算的需求,我們就"},{"start":2660.335,"end":2685.221,"text":"先啟動了這個整規書的修訂程序來上講我想請教就是美方的說法您是說他是怎麼樣他是說這是因為美方的說法是為什麼那時候會有這麼大的這個差異因為我們還是有去選他因為他他是綜合的這個計算各項支出綜合的計算這個站櫃師或者是來在請報告委員站櫃市市長黃啟在這邊向委員做個報告"},{"start":2688.12,"end":2698.046,"text":"我們在建案的時候所獲得的出估報價基本上是只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價生產成本在智慧國會前"},{"start":2699.96,"end":2719.361,"text":"安和局他會針對這個案子所有的相關的成本包含通膨計價未來的各項變動因素專案管理費等等多項的這個計算價格之後去做一個最高的估價值因為美方針對軍購的部分一向是採取這個"},{"start":2721.55,"end":2748.785,"text":"不賺不賠不討價還價的這個原則所以他一定會把這個價格拉到最高那這個部分我們也在後續的時候向美方瞭解說因廠商出估報價的時候是不是有高估的狀況或是有其他的因素那當然美方並沒有針對這個做說明大家外界可能說剛發生雷神案所以大家會聯想會不會是說這些公司可能向美國政府有高個報價"},{"start":2750.126,"end":2751.568,"text":"同步也跟美方就爭取跟現在就是要跟其他國"},{"start":2766.307,"end":2782.052,"text":"也要採購的是國家來爭取說美方跟他其他國家共同預約那這樣希望就能夠因為他會有一個研發的一個價格尤其RTS600他是新的所以他會放入研發的這個價格那如果說"},{"start":2782.432,"end":2782.452,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":2800.014,"end":2810.281,"text":"在九月份完成簽約前的時候,然後美方在八月的時候向我們提交一個正式的發價數的時候,那個時候金額已經降到了五十五億因為它這個差價太大了,幾十億,因為當初我們這個會編列六十多億的這個預算其實也是來自於美方的出戶報價,也是來自於美方"},{"start":2822.27,"end":2822.39,"text":"一而一之"},{"start":2855.266,"end":2880.573,"text":"這個過去智慧國會價格高出我們原本預框預算的這個情況還不少那其中在之前最有名的一個例子是M1A2戰車的例子他當初我們編列的預算是405億智慧國會價格是600億那其他幾個案子也有類似的這個狀況但是在後面經過跟美方充分協調之後我們都在合理的範圍之內把價格給攤下來"},{"start":2883.092,"end":2909.29,"text":"好,那再來的話,再來我想請教就是說像這次我們這個獵鴞專案裡面我們是購入了685套的彈簧刀300跟291套的ALTIS 600M嘛對不對那之前我有看到一些報導大家就對這個彈簧刀300其實有很多的疑慮他說因為它這個重量是很輕嘛我看到之前你們所提供的這個資料我看到就是說彈簧刀300因為它重量很輕"},{"start":2911.331,"end":2938.167,"text":"那它是以供給低防護高價值的目標為主那之前有人講說阿為什麼要買這個台灣刀300阿價格也不便宜阿那為什麼不用這個商用的這個無人機裝上小型炸彈它當作自殺機就其實就可以了而且經濟實惠是這樣子嗎這部分要說明一下嗎到底台灣刀300跟商用的這個無人機差別在哪裡我想分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是說我們現在買的台灣刀300是Block兩棟應該是比原來的那個"},{"start":2941.269,"end":2941.629,"text":"本來就是計劃當中的嘛"},{"start":2967.163,"end":2967.604,"text":"致少應該還要再增購"},{"start":2989.944,"end":3005.04,"text":"事實上要簽假以上那在這一次的話我們能夠多少的話我們再跟美方再來再來洽談看看那看看每一家現在是多少那在大院如果允許的範圍之內我們再跟美方就這個談到600的這個部分"},{"start":3006.834,"end":3036.391,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":3036.741,"end":3036.881,"text":"羅銘霖委員"},{"start":3065.431,"end":3086.156,"text":"來 各位請回 接下來進行詢答委員是陳永康委員主席 有請部長來 部長請"},{"start":3094.31,"end":3096.952,"text":"軍售案對我們國家來講是非常重要的作業流程,也代表"},{"start":3110.219,"end":3128.171,"text":"美國對我們的防衛能力的支持但是在這個作業的過程中間我相信台美雙方這個作業流程的協調是非常重要的我特別這邊給大家報告一個真正的作業流程我們的報價包括初估報價就是ROM價錢"},{"start":3130.093,"end":3154.69,"text":"廠商提供的一些,包括原廠,再加上美國作業流程,這裏面就是知會國會的金額,為什麽跟這次產生的差額,最後到了發價書,簽LOA,又掉了60億下來,所以這個案子的最後,包括實際執行金額,修正發價書,這都可以中間有條件的調節,這個看我們對案子的深入瞭解。"},{"start":3156.931,"end":3164.765,"text":"軍售價格結構包括各種行政作業費、行政管理費、契約管理費、包裝處理費、運輸費用"},{"start":3167.506,"end":3193.69,"text":"研發補償這就是剛才部長講的如果一個新的案子出來了參與國家這個non-recurring的這個錢就會降低那麼過去曾經有案子就是重複把這個沉入成本研發費美國加在裡面其實你攤負攤過幾次可以談的時候這個做準備那這次看各位這個流程最主要就是在"},{"start":3195.285,"end":3210.286,"text":"通知國會的價錢提高了但是又回到DSA那又再經過軍種再回到我們這邊來談的時候價錢就降低了我認為這個一方面美方的內部要做檢討那另外就是在"},{"start":3211.487,"end":3236.814,"text":"PMR專案管理會議時﹖我們可以跟美國的DSA提出這個東西﹖請他要改進﹖我們相信美方的作業流程﹖但中間有的時候還會一些犯錯﹖就是說疏忽了﹖所以這個價錢有落差﹖那麼你看這次的過程中間﹖我們的價錢從前面拿到LOR﹖開始ROM價錢﹖到簽署發價書﹖雖然經過了一個大loop回到了"},{"start":3237.654,"end":3258.741,"text":"DSEA以後價錢又減下來了但我們編列綠綫理論上我們支持防衛作戰要善用這個經費在檢討過程中間我們提出下面的建議你看看這個過程美方公告是115這是通知國會但是從國會同意了又回到DSEA就剩55了"},{"start":3260.12,"end":3287.163,"text":"那麼我們現在目前是建議維持編列115但是彈簧刀剛剛講了原先的300型的那個現在用比較新的形式了那價錢跟原先有落差那現在新增600了那麼這個數量的價錢我認為是在這個專案裡面是可以做討論溝通所以你採購的數量並不是等於差價除以它的單價因為它的整個管理經費跟作業流又不一樣了"},{"start":3288.864,"end":3310.475,"text":"發價書是要修正的,預算我們在角度上是支持,但最後還考慮一個,我們現在看到的這個結果是因為報給國會的價錢過高,但是同意以後DSA到軍種再回過來的差,那現在有一點點好像是倒果為因,我們未來看看作虛文件要有備案。"},{"start":3311.647,"end":3327.159,"text":"。﹚"},{"start":3329.282,"end":3354.738,"text":"彈簧刀300會不會未來變成消失性商源希望美方要釐定確保我們買的這個第二型的300型能夠有效使用軍購報價完成精算後再正式編列我們這一次我們是支持這個錢有效的運用但是我們希望在後續專案裡面的管理上面尤其是跟DSA的確認因為剛才那個流程"},{"start":3357.478,"end":3384.304,"text":"還要去會軍種 再審查 最後到國會國會又回到DSA 再回到軍種這個專案因為是美國海軍陸戰隊所以回到海軍 再回到我們這邊這個作業的loop裡面 我希望我們的同仁在不只是採購室 戰規室 包括軍種使用這個最重要的部分我提醒部長 這個部分我們大家要精進 要努力部長您有什麼回答"},{"start":3384.944,"end":3404.412,"text":"是,我想就這個部分當然因為他自衛國會的金額跟原來發價書後面的這個金額確實差距過大那所以我想在當時我們就已經這個要求美方要說明這個價差的這個原因"},{"start":3405.1,"end":3423.384,"text":"那所以剛剛委員也指導了應該我們要分項分項去要求做一個詳細的說明那我想這個部分最後當然有大幅的一個降低那顯示這個當時美國在這個做智慧國會的這個金額的時候呢"},{"start":3423.959,"end":3448.072,"text":"以後我們應該也會希望他在智慧國會的金額這一塊能夠做一個精進不然的話這個確實會引起一些質疑我想我們會再跟美方就這個智慧國會的金額這個部分應該要在智慧國會之前就應該要做一個相當的精算這樣子"},{"start":3450.653,"end":3476.272,"text":"另外就是我們希望戰會室跟國防採購室在這個迴路的環節過程中間要協助軍種那麼尤其是配合美國的駐美軍事代表團的軍售小組在這個裡面過程中間如果有任何的這個產生的數量上或是價錢上的誤差及時回饋讓我們這邊有一個育嬰的時間師長您這邊是不是可以做一個普通說明"},{"start":3476.892,"end":3497.442,"text":"報告委員,就是陳儒委員剛剛所指導,事實上這個案子從一開始執行一直到智慧國會發電價差過大,站規師都是全程參與,同時也協助軍種。那後續我們還是會繼續協助軍種在接裝以及後續的申購規劃上面去做一個最完善的安排。"},{"start":3498.795,"end":3520.313,"text":"另外就是這個在採購這個裝備另外就是包括人員訓練這個再次在細項裡面的準則教範我們希望料配件能夠先獲得準則教範能夠提早中文化合格的訓練人員及早回來這樣子裝備到的時候就是戰力可以發揮參謀長您這邊做一下說明"},{"start":3524.681,"end":3546.259,"text":"報告委員：如您的指導：有關於不管是赴美訓練：或是在台協訓：還有相關的這個準則紀念的獲得：在這個：也就是現在在跟：美方簽約的時候：這都是我們在依據：原例以往軍售案：軍購案裡面的這個經驗：我們正在管辦的：那也謝謝委員的指教好 謝謝 謝謝各位 部長 謝謝你"},{"start":3555.064,"end":3558.385,"text":"謝謝陳永康委員 有請王定宇召委謝謝主席 麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長顧部長 參謀長是 王委員好"},{"start":3579.642,"end":3606.054,"text":"我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案?軍售案嘛因為我看了一下你的報告原始報價是向國會報了初步報價後來確認要買的數量了之後呢軍總跟美國的國防部去核實溢價的時候它價格降下來但這個差別的比例相當高差了將近百分之四十幾"},{"start":3607.273,"end":3635.365,"text":"所以我們一般在軍售案裡面從發價合價到audit到集合都是美國軍方負責但目前為止之前的愛國者案雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案那我們如果採商售因為我們國人必須了解就是軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一那商售的話部長合價啦巡價啦議價大概是我方要負責嘛"},{"start":3636.363,"end":3636.643,"text":"我為什麼要提這一點"},{"start":3661.004,"end":3688.676,"text":"就算是軍售案當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度他們的集合人員編制也比我們大太多但是一件兩件三件這樣的情形下我們面對軍售案的時候事實上我們是把買方對於價格的核定跟事後的集合我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課也就是不知道講多少就多少否則這一次他降了那為什麼沒降呢"},{"start":3689.878,"end":3714.337,"text":"我們就變多花了40多%的價格去買了一樣的裝備你懂我意思嗎這一次當然美方誠實的去積合核實價格表示這個機制還是有效但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效有些東西還掌握在我方嘛我們部長對這一個軍售案商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責的啦我們自己要各方來源去比較那在軍售案美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價"},{"start":3716.445,"end":3740.577,"text":"國會合可之後我們真的要買的數量的時候他們的國防部以及軍總會提出來這時候價格就會接近買價所以我第一個建議是說我們部裡面要不要思考或是站規師這裡我們對美方的軍售案有關這些價格的我們至少要去監控它 要去審核它我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法我想是不是先請站規師"},{"start":3742.811,"end":3770.992,"text":"報告委員在我們過去的部分針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P&A也就是報價書或是出戶報價為主但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子我們也已經跟美方達成共識就是針對未來重要軍售案裡面我們會提前做一個價格的預審去了解到目前一般的價格是多少去精進它價格的實務"},{"start":3772.373,"end":3801.259,"text":"商售你們都會去做這些功課啦那我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況這個部分我們因為這個軍購案動輒都幾十億的差額這個影響的預算數很大我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理就是說這個裡面都是民脂民膏我們希望用在對的地方第二個部分"},{"start":3802.418,"end":3826.079,"text":"那現在有差價了嘛我到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置使用單位也就陸軍這邊你要有一個數量的依據我到底有多少戰力因為這現在有多少人要用我要訓練多少人我不是說現在錢多出來了我就多買個500套吧500套有500套的人啊"},{"start":3827.248,"end":3846.626,"text":"戰力的分佈他在哪裡所以我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到就是說我們現在國會面對有兩個選擇嘛今天你們這個報告案要嘛就是來請你們就照原數額買因為原數額是經過戰力評估相關的評估然後去購買的那多餘的價格那我們就繳回庫"},{"start":3848.047,"end":3870.354,"text":"另外一種信息是既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說我們原來就是錢不夠所以才買了一半後面要增加買這個要很科學的告訴我們而不是多多益善部長這邊請回答跟委員報告第一個據我了解我們本來的這個案本來就不是只有要買這樣子的一個數量我們只是依照這個"},{"start":3871.594,"end":3887.7,"text":"國家財政的預渡我們先購買這樣的一個量那第一點第二點就是說我們現在是根據相關還要再進行這個所謂的模式模擬我們會對於整個作戰防衛的這個構想所需要的這個因為你們今天這一塊"},{"start":3890.426,"end":3906.023,"text":"陳永康將軍是有經驗的人了你應該原來我評估要買一千枚我因為國家財政我現在買三百枚現在價格打六折了那我可以把原來一千枚要達標的我可以增加這個也許可以說服委員這一塊我們今天沒有看到啦"},{"start":3906.743,"end":3920.668,"text":"我們這個部分會後再我們提供一個那個詳細的因為現在我們本席我們今天報告案完這個預算的處理那我請部長思考看看是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後是"},{"start":3923.309,"end":3950.181,"text":"預算的部分我們再來處理就是說我們可以一次處理但是如果說明不清楚容易早因為我原來可能要買這麼多第一階段買多少這介紹戰力的規劃也許是機密可是要讓國防委員知道那現在呢因為價格壓低了我要增加數量是在原規劃裡面那個規劃是什麼那個戰力規劃是什麼我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據所以我看部長我們今天如果部長同意的話"},{"start":3951.501,"end":3968.933,"text":"這個部分我們是不是今天把報告完但是後續這個預算是繳回還是徵購是不是請國防部這個所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明否則今天處理的話我認為判斷的依據我沒辦法有科學的依據"},{"start":3970.654,"end":3994.627,"text":"報告委員 謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明事實上這個也如委員剛剛的指導我們並不是因為有這樣子與預算上面編列的差價有60億要去把它買足買齊而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛專案的需求也完成了各式的武器部隊的編裝乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃"},{"start":3995.808,"end":4012.875,"text":"那其中也包含到配附和變裝的調修這都是整體的規劃那個參謀長這一塊因為我時間的關係我覺得應該要更說明更清楚因為你原來過來買這些搞不好明年你是要買中科變自己研製的類似彈簧刀的東西嗎因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛"},{"start":4015.336,"end":4042.766,"text":"這筆錢多出來了是好事總比不夠好但多出來怎麼用可能要一個充分的說明我們再來處理可能會比較精準對 這一點可能要因為涉及到一些我們相關的這個評估的細項我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密啦我不會在這邊請你回答我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對我們使用單位就是軍種最有效的辦法那我們今天就先把報告案報告完然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明"},{"start":4043.326,"end":4043.606,"text":"這題我想問很久"},{"start":4060.752,"end":4076.578,"text":"我認為我們現在邊線比有三個並爭,我很快速的講一下第一個,我們根據國軍近五年的軍官士官士兵的邊線比呢,其實平均值都往,尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下"},{"start":4077.518,"end":4077.918,"text":"2.志願役士兵"},{"start":4092.857,"end":4118.158,"text":"擔任基層非常重要幹部就是軍校生我們軍校生你看我整理了第三張表軍校生從2020年到2024年任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400一直增加到1037這些人可能都排長這些人可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等就這樣子大量基層幹部大量的提早離開"},{"start":4120.083,"end":4137.691,"text":"主戰部隊的志願役士兵每4個有1個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於8成以下這3個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法"},{"start":4138.57,"end":4167.77,"text":"有,現在正在擬議中的就是軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的擬議中是適度的調升那另外就是這一個有關這個提高待遇的這個部分我們會針對相關的這個邊線比比較低的還有一些專業的部分我建議說除了薪資報酬以外應該還有其他的就是就業環境的因素可能一定要考量第二個我要提醒國防部"},{"start":4169.07,"end":4180.837,"text":"不能為了增加這個邊線筆比如我看最近有說要放寬不適服的回來我不是反對我的意思是說體能品德能力這三個不能打折"},{"start":4182.176,"end":4183.318,"text":"跟委員報告,我們不釋服的只限於那一個"},{"start":4200.355,"end":4204.179,"text":"有些不能打折,有些是因為家庭就這個孩子"},{"start":4217.671,"end":4218.752,"text":"謝謝王帝 莊委 有請徐巧欣委員"},{"start":4262.539,"end":4263.867,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請郭部長"},{"start":4267.911,"end":4296.53,"text":"首先我要先講一下主席剛才一開始在最一開始開會的時候有講到說如果今天報告確認後可行信預算是可以直接認可的但我們在建案的時候包含價格採購數量不一還有剛才的幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部裡面去提出很多的疑慮所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題應該要重新建案先表達我個人的看法"},{"start":4297.21,"end":4316.82,"text":"那首先要問的一個問題是顧部長您知道在113年中央政府的總預算計負主單位預算案半年的查核報告裡面呢我們的這個執行率我們的上半年度的執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下好不好"},{"start":4323.353,"end":4323.673,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4346.903,"end":4373.749,"text":"今年預算執行率沒有達到90%﹖有占比49項﹖占了21%﹖也等於說以上半年來說﹖我們去年跟立法院要了錢﹖但是卻有一半的項目執行的不確實﹖也就是說預算如果通過了﹖那就沒有辦法接受監督﹖你的不斷落後的情況﹖這也會影響到我們今年在審查預算的時候我們的想法﹖這一點大家必須要了解"},{"start":4374.529,"end":4377.931,"text":"再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億"},{"start":4399.42,"end":4409.305,"text":"那今年6月公告是115億那我們呢也同意了普遍列55億的情況之下又減到這個減到55億等於說少了60億這個情形當然會讓大家覺得說那是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億台幣可以買到的東西那只是美國國會公告之後我們沒有去向美方針對這個專案管理去好好的"},{"start":4423.692,"end":4427.558,"text":"我們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面我方是否有評估獵鴞專案的單價是否合理我方 不是美方"},{"start":4439.328,"end":4455.237,"text":"跟委員報告第一點就是您剛問的那個國防的整體預算執行率到10月底只會到91.4那軍事投資的部分會到92.5那預判到年底會打94.8那我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況那有關於這個獵鴞專案的這個部分我們當時在這個知會國會的價格在提出115億的時候我們確實是有疑問的你們有疑問對但是我們因為"},{"start":4467.063,"end":4489.262,"text":"我們為了不讓這個因為這個因為他自衛國會的金額已經到達這個金額那我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億的這樣子的一個價格來編那萬一預算不足的話這個建案就會構成所以啊我了解你的意思所以如果說我們自己都覺得有疑慮但我們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通而是照單全收"},{"start":4489.662,"end":4490.263,"text":"這件事情是讓大家覺得不能接受的地方啊"},{"start":4505.038,"end":4531.189,"text":"剛剛已經跟委員報告就是我們事實上在他智慧國會之後我們就持續的跟美方下商要求美方具體的說明價差的一個原因那我們降了60億之後呢那基本上就省下了這60億之後那為什麼我們不是直接把這個錢那我們之後我們另外建案去買其他的東西而是要直接在這個預算裡面就直接往後加呢因為如果你這樣做的話我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢"},{"start":4533.01,"end":4546.974,"text":"而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型更符合台灣的戰略想定那省上來的錢也可以繼續買別的啊那為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續去增購這個我就不細講啦這個怕涉及國防機密就直接再去增購這個相關的武器呢"},{"start":4556.755,"end":4569.948,"text":"我想RTS-600它事實上就是一個最新型的無人機它的制工時間是相當久那對於這個裝甲型的這個武器的反制是相當的高這個我了解你們都報告過我們現在對這一款攻擊型的無人機我們認為我們現在進行"},{"start":4575.693,"end":4581.135,"text":"有這樣的一個需求只希望大院能夠支持你們有需求你們也當時報了單價也報了數量那國會這邊也給了支持那所以說你們既然當時報的數量是這樣子的價格是這樣子的那你們突然現在又多又等於說又要繼續多買那應該"},{"start":4596.019,"end":4620.632,"text":"我的看法就是我覺得呢你們只要重新建案的話我們百分之百會支持沒有人要說我們台灣不用無人機只是現在目前的這個方式我們很難接受那再來我要特別來問的是說我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型號目前的進度那正在進行博港測試目前缺失改善的情形跟何時在博港測試什麼時候會全部完成"},{"start":4622.317,"end":4641.826,"text":"海軍參謀長,補充一下目前我們一個測試的進度大概83%到85%你說HAT的部分?對,HAT那海上測試什麼時候會開始執行?4月1號會執行所以我們目前博港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項?"},{"start":4645.818,"end":4652.181,"text":"那你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行?就是判斷而已嗎?那節點的管制如果說那又有延宕的話那你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎?"},{"start":4667.848,"end":4684.441,"text":"目前都是正常目前是正常的,但是你如果說4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕,這是有可能發生的情況對吧目前看不到會有這個發生,目前還在好,那你ASAT海上測試之後,你們預計要花多少時間預計是從4月1號到9月30號之間完成"},{"start":4688.092,"end":4715.026,"text":"所以你們在什麼時候會交鑒?交鑒在11月交鑒在11月嗎?那如果你們交鑒這個有沒有延期的可能性?還是你現在告訴我11月絕對交鑒不會延到明年?目前還在預讀內目前這個對我要問的不是目前嘛我問的是你們現在評估是說你要現在跟我保證說今年一定會交鑒哪怕是12月不會延到明年?"},{"start":4716.161,"end":4732.735,"text":"報告委員就目前的一個現況是可以明年11月份就好那因為是這樣子我們現在在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面呢2016年開始潛艦國造第一第二階段裡面一艘就做了8年那我們對外也都沒有公開說明我們原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節"},{"start":4735.337,"end":4760.848,"text":"現在要一次編列預算到127年而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性明年只會用到這個初期簽約甚至不需要20億這麼多為什麼要多編這麼多預算主席我把它講完他們簡單的一次答覆那所以說呢"},{"start":4761.608,"end":4777.454,"text":"我可以接受你們今年先編兩艘或三艘的潛艦艦案但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編七艘今年才114年你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年等於是十幾年的預算我現在35歲你做好我也要50歲啦"},{"start":4783.737,"end":4800.15,"text":"那個七三段好你們都現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦所以呢像這樣子我們看獵鴞專案都知道了有任何異狀的時候多編出來的預算如果就可以拿去做別的事情這樣的預算完全不合理再加上審計部目前對於國防部的上半年的這個核實的報告也認為是有進度落後效率不彰的問題所以我的具體建議是呢我們可以分階段來建案"},{"start":4810.939,"end":4838,"text":"如果分階段建案的話我個人會完全支持但如果說你要一次性的編127年從現在開始一次性的編7艘那我覺得呢到時候萬一在比如說125年的時候出了任何的問題那我們現在來編列預算這些委員我們很難跟全民交代所以是否可以請部長考慮一下我們在編列預算上面的合理性做一些調整"},{"start":4838.68,"end":4839.961,"text":"但你做到一半的時候我很難給你叫停啊"},{"start":4866.811,"end":4879.602,"text":"您也同意後續見所以我們也看原型件做的結果怎麼樣那我們一定會來分年來編列一個確實的預算然後送大院來審議相關預算的確診"},{"start":4881.423,"end":4898.162,"text":"再一次建議我們兩艘三艘兩艘或三艘兩艘兩艘的方式來編這樣會比較合理我們也比較好審查我們也能夠來支持但是這樣子127年一次編了十幾年的方式那我們在預算審查上面會有難度謝謝"},{"start":4900.785,"end":4901.065,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4918.131,"end":4918.391,"text":"麻煩請副部長"},{"start":4950.19,"end":4956.734,"text":"聖發委員部長早部長今天我們討論的是獵鴞的這個案子本期在這裡基於以下幾點原因我們反對他繼續使用就是說他應該要重新建案剛剛我聽到有委員或者國防部在回應的時候你們都只提到我們美國的安和局"},{"start":4975.663,"end":4983.187,"text":"通知國會的這個部分是一百一十五億然後接下來我們在發價數是五十五億可是你們少說了另外在更早之前我們對於美方提出的那個巡駕的時候其實他們報的大概就是五六十億六十幾這一點我們沒有隱瞞在當時在"},{"start":5001.696,"end":5005.719,"text":"在112年簽署﹚部長沒關係你有講沒關係我們現在就是說我們當時在跟美方詢問的時候一定有提出我們的需求數量然後美方依據我們的提出的條件所以他報價是這樣那在6月份今年6月份他安和局跟國會告知的金額還有公告的部分是115億可是最後在8月份"},{"start":5031.275,"end":5034.537,"text":"我們其實就已經知道是55億這部分為什麼我們建議要重新建案第一如果急需我們所有都急需現在有哪一個軍種可以說你們現在要的武器都夠了嗎然後你還有什麼其實是還沒有買到的嗎"},{"start":5049.207,"end":5055.011,"text":"如果這個是這麼需要其實你用戰備急需還是可以啊你過去魚叉就是這樣做的啊所以他不會去受到影響可是我們在這裡要提出來他為什麼有幾個應該要注意的第一個就是預算紀律就是財政紀律今天你如果只要花這麼多錢然後你超出這麼多超出一半以上欸你有60億的金額那你居然要繼續這樣用那以後你的報告就好了啊"},{"start":5078.709,"end":5093.118,"text":"我們過去可能有這樣的狀況很少可是這個是財政紀律的一個部分所以就這個部分我們希望在因為我們8月就已經知道了對不對就已經收到發價書8月就知道為什麼你們9月還跟AIT簽約"},{"start":5101.789,"end":5102.89,"text":"報告員 相貴司司長這邊向您報告我們簽約的是我們目前"},{"start":5114.861,"end":5120.163,"text":"大院已經核定了數量所以就是55億吧55億嘛 對不對可是你們提供的那個跟AIT簽的是100多億喔你們自己再去再看看看清楚8月你們就已經收到這個正式的發價書可是你卻9月還這樣簽這個才是真正的養套殺你把那個天價定出來然後再降價"},{"start":5140.069,"end":5147.211,"text":"然後再用剩餘的不要重新建案要把它買足這是第一個我們認為財政紀律有嚴重瑕疵的地方第二個 報告委員這個可能有點誤解美方提出的是9月的時候簽約可以和其他採購方共同預約並不是說"},{"start":5160.454,"end":5162.496,"text":"你只要買午餐你會把明天的早餐午餐晚餐全部一起寫上去嗎?類似這樣"},{"start":5186.275,"end":5193.64,"text":"今天沒有很多時間所以他給我們的只有55億多的發價書他並沒有給我們115億的發價書我知道發價書不可能跟他簽115億的發價書我們再給你看如果有怎麼辦你在9月跟AIT簽的約就是100多億另外時間的關係第二個就是說像Artis600的這個無人機其實我們從因為陸軍"},{"start":5214.284,"end":5219.828,"text":"的說明是說111年4月就開始接近二無戰爭他的作戰需求根據外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年也就是因為你們說111年你們就就是2022年你們就已經接近二無戰爭可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批"},{"start":5239.12,"end":5239.32,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5264.52,"end":5264.9,"text":"美國軍隊也有採購"},{"start":5291.014,"end":5311.938,"text":"因為就我們看到的資料：近期的文章他有發表美國陸軍測試而且證明了Artis-600它能夠作為網絡風群進行大量操作這是文章說的然後Artis-600無人機它之前也展示過空中發射重點是沒有採用美國的陸軍沒有採用"},{"start":5315.359,"end":5320.9,"text":"所以在這個部分因為像Artis600它是新創公司過去大家看到的它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現我剛剛講的它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架這個直升機這個無人機去攻莫斯科兩架都被打下來所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失我們不知道美國的陸軍並沒有採用就我們得到的訊息"},{"start":5344.286,"end":5368.215,"text":"另外還有就是我們在整個無人機的市場現在全球都非常關注的情況之下其實它的進步是非常快不管你是攻擊還是你在反制它都是不斷不斷的演進結果你一次要買這麼多而且就我剛剛說的缺失我等一下還可以把它其他的問題把它列出來因為剛剛你們說它的飛行續航力多久"},{"start":5373.245,"end":5396.175,"text":"105分鐘105分鐘可是安和局它公告的給我們的上限是600M喔它的時間是4小時喔你當初給我們的資料是它的飛行時間4小時喔那個是徵收型的我們現在買的是供給型的不是它有M4小時然後它如果我們買的所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊"},{"start":5398.596,"end":5402.017,"text":"你原來因為像報章雜誌其實他講的都是600M然後安和局要給我們的他當然是給你可以買到M的可是我們卻買600所以這個部分包括他的滯空啦他的你彈尿醜仔啦或者其他的續航力是不是有問題是不是有符合我們的需求我想這個都是要必須要說清楚的所以今天如果在這些因為還包括你買的"},{"start":5425.223,"end":5430.085,"text":"現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型你會買兩倍以上的數量我們以後要放在哪裡而且它不斷的進步我們像台灣這麼潮濕過去F16還有我們的艦體其實都有鏽蝕的狀況像這個你要放在哪裡又要蓋嗎又要蓋東西來放嗎所以就這幾個原因我們不認為我們現在要急著要花這麼多的錢繼續去"},{"start":5452.273,"end":5452.293,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":5467.594,"end":5484.158,"text":"方委員容我三句話簡短的向您報告第一個重啟建案它如果按照整個建案程序這類似或是該型的裝備最快的獲得恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得這是第一點報告第二個對於類似Artis 600這樣子的屬於序號彈它是屬於一種彈藥那我們國軍現行的序號彈藥的庫房是足夠"},{"start":5494.321,"end":5494.701,"text":"參謀長顯然你沒有聽清楚我前面講的三點"},{"start":5513.078,"end":5529.113,"text":"第一預算,第二它是不是符合我們的需求,不是你有地方放就好了,之前給我們已經發霉或過期的你也有地方放嗎?第三個,我救他回答的啦,還有他是不是先進的,我們到底要不要買這麼多的數量,他到底多少錢你也沒有告訴我們,這數量會多少也不知道,所以把它弄清楚,該繳回就繳回"},{"start":5539.782,"end":5540.262,"text":"你好,我們請部長來,部長請"},{"start":5576.538,"end":5592.152,"text":"陳委員好部長好部長今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案那獵鴞專案其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員一起來跟我們來說明執行規劃那整個整體的規劃編列預算我們最開始是60億"},{"start":5594.373,"end":5613.081,"text":"60億元吧那後來114年那美國國會他是說到115億剛才我聽幾位委員在討論的時候我有聽到是戰規師的師長有提到說這個必須要考量吼包含通膨還有等等的因素在裡面可是從61到115億"},{"start":5615.382,"end":5640.932,"text":"通膨是百分之百嗎?我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高可不可以稍微解釋一下當你們看到這115億你們的心態是怎麼樣?覺得說怎麼會有這麼龐大的預算?報告委員那個他的項目當然不是只有通膨而已他剛剛陳永康委員他大概有列了一個表大概有八大類但是他的項目非常的龐雜美方大概也不會跟我們詳細的去公佈這些項目"},{"start":5642.873,"end":5669.625,"text":"但是我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關的案例當我們發現軍售案跟出估報價的價格價差超過20%以上我們就會視為不合理一定會跟美方來進行洽談瞭解實際上價格超抑的原因那這一次也是採取同樣的模式那最後美方也透過共同意約的模式來協助我們把這個價格有效來降價"},{"start":5671.653,"end":5693.138,"text":"有效來降下來對我剛才聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意有效降到55億可是我現在又有一個疑問那為什麼你們當初就直接編列115億元比如說你這對數量你是同樣的數量可是你還是編列115億元可不可以再說明一下報告委員當初我們還沒有在55億我們沒有得到這個最後裝備發價出是55億的時候你就直接變115億"},{"start":5699.588,"end":5707.777,"text":"我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理"},{"start":5715.1,"end":5735.205,"text":"我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛剛幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來跟我說明資料的時候"},{"start":5735.985,"end":5747.966,"text":"我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double"},{"start":5748.496,"end":5777.682,"text":"所以我們必須要很清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才川普剛剛委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統"},{"start":5778.482,"end":5800.68,"text":"他們的政權 他們的談判的能力 如果說我們照單全收的話我是希望照單全收的是量 不是說他的金額金額是固定 結果我們量反而是二分之一我們不希望是這樣子 我們當然知道有他作戰的需求 作戰的裝備國防在預算我們會都支持 但是必須要 你要考量一下說怎麼這種浮動變化之大所以今天為什麼會有這個專案報告 這麼多委員在討論也是因為"},{"start":5803.342,"end":5803.362,"text":"委員會議長"},{"start":5823.695,"end":5832.144,"text":"依照這個作戰的場域,我上次聽到我們這個國防部的官員來我們辦公室提到的時候,他說是依照對方的裝備,所以我們在採購,我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備,反他們的裝備嘛,所以現在看起來900多套的這個裝備還是遠遠不足的,我們是不是可以這樣子說?"},{"start":5843.185,"end":5852.458,"text":"報告委員沒有錯目前我們在光是反甲型的需求依照我們的需要是要上千套以上上千套以上"},{"start":5853.567,"end":5878.197,"text":"那如果這是編列總共900多套還夠嗎?900多這包含685套是人員殺傷所以291套是反甲型的291是初次採購的那我跟委員報告的是說面對共軍的各式登陸的可能的戰甲車輛我們需求要上千套以上上千套所以我們大概還有短缺大概六七百套左右因應他們的裝備"},{"start":5879.737,"end":5896.965,"text":"我們自己足夠有沒有自己的自制能力?因為剛才有提到說有複數的來源來比價,那包含本身的自產的能力也是未來可以作為談判的一個籌碼嗎?我們當然現在正在進行相關的努力反甲型的無人機,我們我國"},{"start":5902.251,"end":5917.46,"text":"中科院的評價有機會有自治的能力嗎現在中科院我想比較著重的是先是人員殺傷型的部分那防專家型的部分可能還要後續現在還沒有"},{"start":5923.123,"end":5938.397,"text":"一定的這個成果出來那所以我們在督促這個中科院再來根據這個人員殺傷型的這個部分然後再來進一步發展這個反裝甲型的那我想我們都會用外購跟自治這個兩種的這個部分來進行"},{"start":5942.261,"end":5942.461,"text":"主席"},{"start":5955.316,"end":5956.437,"text":"明年編列二十一關於潛艦的部分"},{"start":5978.687,"end":6003.855,"text":"那其實這幾天有很多的媒體都有談到說我們在野黨可能要針對明年編列的部分來去動檢刪那特別是有些是全面刪除有些是保留大概剩下兩億元那保留兩億元的部分他們是認為說這個是能夠某種程度是前期簽約他還是可以完成那也不會影響到整個檢建國造的歷程"},{"start":6004.955,"end":6005.375,"text":"主要是因為臺船現在如果"},{"start":6024.121,"end":6045.715,"text":"我們現在在海上測試我已經一再的承諾就是海測通過之後我們才會動用這個錢但在這個之前呢我想我們還是要讓這個台船他要先行這個去備料然後跟這些預約等等然後後續的這些可能的"},{"start":6047.281,"end":6049.082,"text":"主要是這樣子不好意思內閣部長所以如果說他們"},{"start":6072.555,"end":6100.703,"text":"保留到剩下只剩2億這樣是足夠我們後來的我們當然是希望最好的方法就是說我們在海鮮通過之前我們不動資任何一毛錢那在海鮮通過之後我們看看海船他這個部分他已經需要動資了多少錢那我們就按照他這個他已經動資了這個多少錢的這個數字我們補給這個這個台船讓他的金流能夠順遂這樣子好 謝謝 謝謝部長"},{"start":6106.71,"end":6109.231,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是黃仁委員謝謝主席在詢問這個顧部長之前我對主席剛剛所發言的這個部分所以針對這個口頭宣告的今天獵鴞專案的經國防部的報告之後及認可專案"},{"start":6136.363,"end":6136.783,"text":"是,部長好"},{"start":6160.959,"end":6173.031,"text":"關於我們的這個獵鴞專案,我們有兩個兩種的無人機的一個飛彈的系統,分別為人員殺傷型彈簧刀及仿專甲的600"},{"start":6179.592,"end":6192.487,"text":"經過很多的測試,在烏克蘭認為這個彈簧刀它的效能沒有那麼好,所以會影響到我們行為"},{"start":6198.443,"end":6219.49,"text":"行飛彈的一型跟二型未來的一個發展所以這個部分來講的話你說有沒有必要來採購這個彈簧刀300型的還有另外就是這個ADIS的600型的這個部分有沒有必要採購因為經過烏克蘭的實戰的經驗裡面來講的話評價並不好"},{"start":6226.992,"end":6246.753,"text":"所以如果嚴格來講我們的這個巡飛彈一型比彈簧刀還來得好而且價格上都差不多所以部長有沒有思考這個部分有沒有必要大量的採購這些這兩型的系統"},{"start":6248.676,"end":6264.336,"text":"我想就中科院所研製的巡迴彈一型的這個部分它是比較跟這個美制的300的性能比較相近那我們現在當然採購的是人員殺人性能度是台灣刀300的"},{"start":6265.567,"end":6294.002,"text":"這個最新型的部分就是兩棟的部分那另外我們主要要徵購的部分是這一個ARTIS 600這個人員不是反裝甲型的這個無人攻擊機那所以我想就這個部分在我們這個島嶼防衛作戰上面來看的話我們認為ARTIS 600的這個部分在我們的這個防衛作戰構想上面是可以發揮相當大的作用"},{"start":6295.779,"end":6323.435,"text":"因為我為什麼提這個我們行飛彈一行雖然沒有實戰的經驗實戰但是他的在是在本土研發生產的他的測試在我們的戰場環境就整個我們本土的國家的這個地形地物所做出來的這樣的一個這樣的一個行飛彈一行所以實際上可能"},{"start":6324.301,"end":6346.989,"text":"更符合我們作戰的需求啊所以在採購的來講的話行飛彈一行這個評定的價格大概300萬那實際上跟彈滑刀的無人機裡面價格都差不多所以是不是可以考慮行飛彈一行的這個部分來講是不是可以針對這個來做進行採購跟研發"},{"start":6351.531,"end":6359.939,"text":"我們都是雙軌並行的,也就是說外購的部分我們需要,那剛剛已經講過了,我們現在要徵購的並不是這個人員殺傷型的這個300,我們要徵購的是那個Artist 600,是"},{"start":6366.445,"end":6367.925,"text":"中科院的這個300的部分如果通過作案測評之後我們當然也可以再進行量產這樣子"},{"start":6385.151,"end":6400.631,"text":"好 在6月26號的時候就關心過美國出售彈簧刀300型 阿迪斯的650無人機你當時也回答說我們雙管 雙管定用 同步採購 那這個"},{"start":6403.766,"end":6429.599,"text":"本席看了陸軍隊已經採購的300架的中科型飛彈一型外．國軍沒有再採購任何一架型飛彈一型．結果陸軍一口氣就向美國採購．大量的100枚無人機飛彈．還多編了60億準備後續採購．這就是看出當時本席擔心完全正確．而且你當時有講說是同步進行的來採購．"},{"start":6430.76,"end":6455.226,"text":"所以這個就是問題出在這個地方啊在6月28號的時候6月26號的時候我在這個地方特別質詢你所以你當時回答我是同步進行採購但是今天出了這個問題剛剛我所報告的部長所以你要重新的調整思考一下好不好那針對我們今天的"},{"start":6457.335,"end":6460.396,"text":"多編了55億多編了115億這個問題從哪裡來而且他的這個發價發價書裡面就已經美國的發價書裡面已經很明確的是55億針對685架的人員殺傷型291架的"},{"start":6479.845,"end":6508.314,"text":"防專家型的這個狀況很清楚的是55億為什麼編了115億那另外我特別要講的是第一個我們有沒有在計畫裡面有預算的精神法預算法的精神在計畫的時候一定有預算的精神那是不是有違反了預算書的精神另外就是我特別講的我們"},{"start":6512.276,"end":6529.883,"text":"這個計畫預算是跟著計畫走的那現在已經有採購的計畫了嗎還有想買多少量需要提需求書提了嗎每方提供的發價書有了嗎所以這個就是你為什麼編115億的狀況"},{"start":6533.584,"end":6558.673,"text":"而且今天美國發價書裡面就55億而已為什麼你就用這個來後續來編這個115億今天我講的是第一個採購計畫有了嗎第二想買多少數量有了嗎還有需求需求需求書提了嗎那這個就是你們今天的美方有沒有提出發價書115億的預算你要回答"},{"start":6563.41,"end":6590.668,"text":"委員好我是主席局局長就委員所提到第一個問題預算編列的一個程序是否符合相關的法規就預算法的規範我們國防部編列所有軍事投資建案不管是55億的需求115億需求我們都完成相關的建案程序也因為它超過10億元以上非疾病案子我們都報奉行政院核令之後奉行政院分配預算來編列相關的預算書表送進大院來審查就預算的編列程序是沒有問題以上跟委員報告"},{"start":6592.915,"end":6597.838,"text":"剛剛所有的議員都已經提出對115億的疑問,你算還是合法的嗎?請問一下,你現在回答我,請問一下,你有沒有採購的計畫?第二個,需要買多少量?第三,需求提出"},{"start":6615.973,"end":6643.669,"text":"西球書提了吧這個就是一個問題所在嘛你們還提那麼理由一大堆報告委員我們沒有提理由我們在這邊跟委員你們重新檢討啦我們這60億元都必須經過大院的同意才可以動之那如果大院不同意的話當然我們只能按照原本的預算狂烈來執行對嘛這樣回答不是就是一個問題給本席一個答案了嗎你還講什麼理由"},{"start":6649.184,"end":6671.939,"text":"好謝謝黃仁委員各位請回接下來進行詢答的委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在接下來進行詢答委員請王洪威委員詢答好謝謝主席我先請部長部長請"},{"start":6678.942,"end":6692.033,"text":"所以我安慰部長我覺得剛才黃仁委員他質疑的確實很有道理如果今天我們購買武器那麼美方他的發價書是55億但是我們卻要編115億是不是代表我們的這些國防的採購"},{"start":6699.919,"end":6715.317,"text":"是要五毛給一塊呢所以這些相關的就是我們的預算的編列不是讓立法院給空白授權書啊那不然的話剛才講的就是說要看那個大院同不同意"},{"start":6716.098,"end":6740.152,"text":"那你總是要有個理由而不是要有空白授權書我覺得這點非常重要我們都知道我們建制國防加強防衛的重要性但是要五毛給一塊的事情我們不要做這個這個冤大頭好不好另外請教部長對不起時間暫停一下我再請我們的海軍海軍司令部參謀長"},{"start":6743.592,"end":6767.019,"text":"所以公委員報告這剛剛講的就是說當然因為是預算編制期整的關係他所以我們編那現在事實上只要55億所以對那你編了那60億怎麼辦要不要再動60億這個就是大院可以決定如果大院不同那你們也要可以提出來啊是不是預算就應該保留才對預算是不是該保留人家要55億我們編115億這60億欸60億是很大的錢欸"},{"start":6770.88,"end":6787.852,"text":"對,大院如果不同意的話,那大院就會把它刪減,那就結繳國庫,那大院如果同意我們增購的話,那我們就再增購你們是不是也應該辦保留預算啊?好,另外請教一下,我們在...報告委員,現在委員釐清,這個預算還沒有編,所以沒有保留的問題你們不是編在114年度嗎?"},{"start":6795.014,"end":6804.279,"text":"包委員我們預算是每年會編一次那目前我們編列的是114年的預算所以你們建議直接砍掉就是了所以現在你看到的60億你要買什麼啊你到底要買什麼人家說55億賣給你你要編115億欸天底下有這麼這麼冤大頭的事情嗎大院如果同意的話我們會把預算額度以外的錢購買反裝甲型然後你們再來增加對不對"},{"start":6822.175,"end":6828.619,"text":"這預算可以這樣子編法嗎?我時間有限,我要問一下就是有關於我們潛艦國造原型艦的問題那麼在預算書上,本來我們有關於第二艦代原型艦的籌建預算,114年度是編列25億"},{"start":6838.786,"end":6845.672,"text":"但是呢明年度的預算把這25億又把它拆成12345114到118年度請問一下為什麼114年度的預算又要把它分拆到到118年度請問我們的原型艦出現什麼樣的問題我們的預算為什麼要做這樣的更動"},{"start":6859.949,"end":6869.222,"text":"主要就是因為那個魚雷Mk.48的那個重型的魚雷的交互的這個騎乘而延後的關係而不是我們建造的關係"},{"start":6870.151,"end":6897.159,"text":"所以是魚雷這一部分25億都是魚雷的部分嗎是的都是嗎5億是屬於船廠那其他的21屬於魚雷的那因為魚雷要分批的這個所以這樣可以這樣解讀嗎原來是應該114年度執行完畢的那現在因為魚雷交貨的延宕所以要延到118年度是這樣嗎是的他魚雷因為他因為"},{"start":6898.499,"end":6899.94,"text":"郭喜說海昆號的星象有一樣設備製造商不賣了"},{"start":6923.619,"end":6935.444,"text":"他直接說是德國,其實過去都沒有講是德國嘛,他這個有泄密之嫌他說呢,我們找,買不到心臟,所以現在有人來問我說,阿是不是呢,前件的這個心臟沒有了,我們換卡車的心臟,我說不會這麼離譜嗎所以請問一下部長,請問郭喜他所講的到底是假消息還是他泄密了"},{"start":6947.569,"end":6964.881,"text":"這很重要喔!最近大家都在傳喔!說我們那個心臟買不到喔!然後要換變成是卡車的心臟喔!請摘要回答我想第一個說明我想郭襲的這個部分呢並非屬實喔!那第二個呢所以他是假消息我們有關所有有關潛艦的裝備選用都採複試商員的評選所以來降低風險那關鍵的裝備商都是屬於受保護而不以對外公開的"},{"start":6972.887,"end":6988.71,"text":"他講的德國製造商是不是事實?他有沒有泄密?我只能夠簡要地回答他講的並不是事實。他如果有泄密的話要去辦他,對不對?你們去泄密,立法委員你們都去辦立法委員,都去告立法委員,如果郭喜有泄密的話為什麼不去告郭喜呢?部長,如果有泄密要不要告郭喜?"},{"start":6997.987,"end":7008.83,"text":"因為他講的這個內容在我看起來他沒有講得非常的清楚到底是講哪些什麼哪些的項目是什麼你這樣子是有顧左右而言他"},{"start":7009.608,"end":7010.248,"text":"提醒國防部"},{"start":7032.867,"end":7050.026,"text":"去承認或否認在機密的項目上其實都是不能做的事情這個我們潛艦在國防委員會都是機密審查就去否認或承認都因為全世界會照潛艦都那幾家我否認了消去法等於方便人家去掌握"},{"start":7052.886,"end":7061.953,"text":"蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在、紅夢凱委員、紅夢凱委員、紅夢凱委員不在、翁曉琳委員、翁曉琳委員、翁曉琳委員不在、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在"},{"start":7074.721,"end":7088.056,"text":"那今日已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員、沈伯陽委員、林楚英委員、蘇清泉委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":7092.1,"end":7109.42,"text":"請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆委員：口同質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從其所定本席再次宣告有關這個獵鴞專案"},{"start":7112.564,"end":7119.189,"text":"當時編列的過程並不是有55億你們硬編了115億不是這樣子而是根據美國向國會提出的價格115億編列後來在進入實質要簽約的時候發價出來是55億所以產生了60億的差價軍方這一點剛才沒有說明清楚我幫你們說明一下你們並不是人家報55你們編115而是原始的報價就是115"},{"start":7140.447,"end":7162.586,"text":"後來送到國會進到安和局美國的軍種去集合之後把它降到55歲差核60例第二個本委員會現在處理的方式是專案報告來說明這預算的情形這個是要誠實透明的向國防委員會做說明第二個說明之後這一個差額的60億未來到底是另建新案"},{"start":7163.612,"end":7182.751,"text":"或者是徵購或者是繳回不列這個我們今天不做決策由所需的單位軍種向各國防委員進行詳實的溝通之後我們再來決定處理的方式好今天的會議到此結束散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16303","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaf2b9a3ee14b9f3efad9f551ce5fa921fb104c5adbfed68f77ce0041af0fe05435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：11月25日(星期一)一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。三、繼續審查原住民族委員會函送財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會114年度預算書案。四、繼續審查114年度中央政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19,"end":2279.221,"text":"第三目,經濟發展業務,1億6104萬9千元。第四目,土地規劃管理利用業務,1億277萬元。第五目,公共建設業務,16億4291萬5千元。第六目,輔助原住民族地區,6億4千萬元。第七目,促進原住民族經濟事業,28億1610萬元。"},{"start":2288.747,"end":2295.929,"text":"八、第一預備金1,000萬元。九、原住民族教育推展30億2,891萬2,000元。十、社會服務推展30億2,227萬2,000元。十一、促進原住民就業3億8,083萬5,000元。"},{"start":2310.34,"end":2331.339,"text":"114年度原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心稅入預算第二款罰款及賠償收入即使三項原住民族文化發展中心15萬元第一幕賠償收入15萬元第三款規費收入第八項原住民族文化中心2730萬3千元第一幕使用規費收入2730萬3千元"},{"start":2335.376,"end":2347.874,"text":"第四款財產收入第14項原住民族文化發展中心126萬元,第一目126萬元。第七款其他收入第14項原住民族文化發展中心369,000元,第一目369,000元。"},{"start":2352.873,"end":2375.118,"text":"最初部分第二款行政院主管第九項原住民族文化發展中心一億一千六百一十六萬元第一幕一般行政七千四百七十萬四千元第二幕藝術展演及文化推展業務一千八百六十五萬六千元第三幕公共建設及社會服務推展業務兩千兩百三十萬元第四幕地域備金五十萬元"},{"start":2377.765,"end":2398.509,"text":"作業基金原住民族委員會主管原住民族綜合發展基金附屬單位預算。一、業務計劃部分因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產之建設改良擴充及資金運用等項之審查結果,隨同調整。業務收支部分業務總收入36億2568萬3千元業務總支出38億4669萬4千元本期短促2億2101萬1千元"},{"start":2407.816,"end":2421.213,"text":"結繳公庫金額無劣數轉投資計劃部分無劣數固定資產資建設改良及擴充無劣數公庫增撥金額無劣數補辦預算部分無劣數"},{"start":2423.911,"end":2439.278,"text":"原住民族委員會主管財團法人——原住民族文化事業基金會114年度預算。一、工作計劃部分因依據收入與支出審查結果隨同調整。二、收入支出及輿促部分收入5億6591萬元支出6億3784萬1千元本期短促7193萬1千元"},{"start":2445.939,"end":2463.247,"text":"原住民族主管財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會114年度預算一、工作計畫部分因依據收入與支出審查結果隨同調整。二、收入、支出及輿出部分收入3102萬元支出3101萬元本期剩餘2萬元。繼續宣讀提案部分"},{"start":2476.277,"end":2487.224,"text":"有關原住民族委員會提案,第八項計兩案為第一案至第二案,內容請委員參閱。第一目共計13案為第三案至第15案,請委員參閱。第二目共計47案為第16案至第62案,內容請委員參閱。第三目"},{"start":2498.183,"end":2501.546,"text":"公計19案為第63至第81案請委員參閱內容。四、公計19案為第82至第100案內容請委員參閱。五、公計24案為第101至第124案內容請委員參閱。"},{"start":2516.178,"end":2523.541,"text":"議案為第125案,內容請委員參閱。第七目為議案為126案,內容請委員參閱。第九目共計58案為第127到184案,內容請委員參閱。第十目共計16案為第185到第200案,內容請委員參閱。主決議部分共計24案為201案到224案,內容請委員參閱。"},{"start":2543.75,"end":2564.524,"text":"有關原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心提案最入部分第三款規配收入共計三案為第一案至第三案內容請委員參閱最初部分第一幕一般行政共計三案為第四案至第六案內容請委員參閱第二幕"},{"start":2566.175,"end":2595.244,"text":"公計六案為第七到第十二案,內容請委員參閱。主決議部分有兩案為第十三到第十四案,內容請委員參閱。有關原住民族綜合發展基金預算提案部分,業務收入為一案,請委員參閱。業務成本與費用部分,公計提案五案為第二到第六案,內容請委員參閱。關主決議部分,公計兩案為第七到第八案,內容請委員參閱。"},{"start":2597.677,"end":2612.349,"text":"有關財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會提案部分收入部分委員無相關提案支出部分業務支出為一案請委員參閱主決議共計兩案為第二到第三案請委員參閱"},{"start":2614.19,"end":2630.196,"text":"有關財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會預算提案部分收入部分委員無相關提案支出部分業務支出為第一共計五案為第一到第五案內容請委員參閱主決議部分為一案請委員參閱有關114年度中央政府總預算關於不當黨產處理委員會提案部分"},{"start":2641.744,"end":2658.464,"text":"最初部分第一幕即六案為第一到第六案內容請委員參閱第二幕黨產處理業務共計二十案為第七案到第二十六案內容請委員參閱主決議部分共計四案為第27至第30案內容請委員參閱宣讀完畢"},{"start":2665.216,"end":2692.507,"text":"好謝謝吼那本次會議議程所列有關處理114年度之預算吼我們原例吼統一做以下三點宣告第一有關各委員之提案為此討論聚焦依預算科目編排稅率部分以向為單位稅數部分原例處理到目之科目為原則提案委員如有提出凍結相關預算者除有委員會"},{"start":2693.767,"end":2721.466,"text":"除有委員特別聲明意外解凍條件均依例改為向本內政委員會提出書面報告後,使得動之。處理預算提案時,如提案委員不在場,依召委會依共識該提案不再處理,為如該案於協商前相關部會已跟提案委員溝通完成,並將書面送至本委員會及依該溝通結果處理。以上宣告請問在場委員有異議。"},{"start":2729.509,"end":2745.28,"text":"你這樣子感覺好像只是提書面,我覺得沒有意義。什麼東西提書面?你是說我們凍結的部分只要請他們提書面的話,我們就會解凍?沒有沒有沒有,不是喔不是喔。因為你剛剛用詞好像是這樣。沒有沒有,我再念一次喔。好,謝謝。"},{"start":2746.181,"end":2760.797,"text":"提案委員如有提出凍結相關預算者,除有委員特別聲明意外,解凍條件均依例改為向本內政委員會提出書面報告後時的凍資,如果有委員特別提出意義。"},{"start":2770.629,"end":2783.704,"text":"那個我們每一項提案如果要提凍結的時候基本上條件都會寫在最後面嗎?當然啊那就是以書面的條件為主嗎?我們就做這樣的確認不是你的意思是什麼?如果你有特別提出意義要協商結果這樣這個我跟你講我說的這個都是到我"},{"start":2786.727,"end":2811.081,"text":"照我們內政委員會以前的...因為你有你的網歷,但我要確認一下嘛,我們是新科,因為我們在每一個這個預算審查的提案裡面都會寫解凍的條件嘛,有一些是要專案報告,有一些是要同意厚實的凍值等等,那你剛剛講的是說聲明意義厚才有條件,那請問寫在書面上算不算...算不算條件?我們就做一下釐清啦,我的意思是說應該是以這個書面提案為主嘛,是不是?"},{"start":2812.302,"end":2833.154,"text":"因為你的書面的提案裡面,到時候我們協商可能會改以協商結果為主啦。你懂我的意思嗎?以協商啊。如果協商當然有參加有審,當然是沒有問題。對啊,以協商結果啊。以協商結果為主。對啊對啊對啊,好不好?好,如果沒有異議那我們就通過。好,我們現在..."},{"start":2835.814,"end":2856.983,"text":"我們進行協商好不好我們先審原住民族委員會好不好因為我看有很多原住民的委員都在這邊了我們先審好不好好那我們開始好來稅出部分"},{"start":2875.804,"end":2883.912,"text":"稅出部分大家都沒有意見?我們第一案、第二案那個高金委員?"},{"start":2886.197,"end":2911.905,"text":"我在這個裡面第二頁看一下那個他的那個委辦費就是我認為就是說人民會113年度他增加了6958萬4千塊成長的超過要一成我們認為非常的不合理你是不是要說明一下你增加那麼多的原因是什麼來請主委說明"},{"start":2934.364,"end":2944.133,"text":"主要增加的是有三筆,就是愛部落寬屏的委外,還有原住民博物館未來籌備處的營運。"},{"start":2948.317,"end":2969.49,"text":"還有就是遺跡部落還有這個族群主流化整體的預算增加委外的服務費也大概1500萬所以以上我們就是比這個今年都編列的這些機會那麼這三項工作都是要持續要做的工作尤其是那個原住民那為什麼不寫清楚"},{"start":2972.688,"end":2977.109,"text":"三個月之內向我們內政委員會提出必須提高的必要性專案報告,同意之後才能動之。"},{"start":3002.418,"end":3025.327,"text":"我跟委員報告可不可以不要剪裂就是因為這個不好意思一直以來原民會你們都是太多的委辦費了這個我非常的堅持謝謝這筆錢是真的是用在很很既然要用的話你們為什麼不寫清楚說明白而且呢我們等會審到後來我們會發現你們很多都是很會雲枝啊"},{"start":3026.516,"end":3052.194,"text":"表示表示你們原民會的預算還不少有很多比如說水電費好了水電費你們明明沒有明明就是這個不夠結果呢你們還從別的地方融資你們好像很多很多的費用都可以從別的地方融資出來這個你們原民會真的要深切檢討所以這一次呢我們希望在你的委辦費裡面而且很多問題都出在委辦費"},{"start":3053.235,"end":3068.741,"text":"所以委辦費裡面我們的建議是要解列5%、實動解列5%然後3個月之內然後跟我們內政委員會提出專案報告通知之後才可以動反正你也不急嘛好不好謝謝"},{"start":3076.741,"end":3101.99,"text":"我以為這各處這個都分散在各處市齁這個這個部分而且像教育教育的這個這個博物館的啦還有這個我們那個就是遺跡部落都要做一些你們博物館沒有一下子要那麼多錢啦我們都知道啦對不是只有博物館啦還有最主要是那個那既然是這樣你們為什麼在114年度的預算裡面沒有寫清楚嗎為什麼"},{"start":3111.163,"end":3121.456,"text":"請你們補充說明好不好我們今天不要浪費太多那麼多時間如果大家沒有意見如果就按照我的意見如果大家有意見的話那你們在待會補充說明好嗎謝謝"},{"start":3123.908,"end":3139.779,"text":"主席 黃委員主席 我覺得剛才政委說的 我覺得要寫清楚說得好 因為說實在我剛才去看的時候也有一點 聽他這樣說 我覺得有理所以你們每次的議程限制 只要寫清楚 不然要怎麼審"},{"start":3155.854,"end":3157.715,"text":"各位報告我們在這個計畫書的182頁以下都有寫清楚182頁以下對"},{"start":3181.08,"end":3186.764,"text":"原住民族委員會出國計劃取消率及新增率均逾五成原住民族委員會出國的時間應該是固定的吧?"},{"start":3209.225,"end":3228.525,"text":"像我們最基本在鄉鎮辦活動也是一樣我今天要不要出去我已經規劃好不是說你有時候有有時候沒有那這樣子對未來人在結案在審計的時候有問題所以這個部分是請議員會就是像我說的一樣一個月內向立法院內政委員會提出專案報告同時來動之所以這個部分是這個意思"},{"start":3229.486,"end":3242.806,"text":"主席,因為你要出去,你一年度應該都幾個月好了嘛,你不可能說臨時,想到就要來,想到就不要來,那你對幾個月來間隔,你幾個月是有問題啊。那以上。好,來,蘇喬惠會員。"},{"start":3244.949,"end":3271.391,"text":"主席好 那我們也謝謝各位委員都認真的在監督預算的編列那我想是這樣啦確實大家都應該 原民會應該要把要怎麼做的事情這個報告要寫得更清楚委員才能夠了解也才能夠跟選民負責嘛所以在這個狀況下寫清楚是應該的所以我也同意說如果有哪些委員覺得原民會寫得不夠清楚要繼續要求這OK"},{"start":3274.014,"end":3288.733,"text":"要請他們提出書面報告最好是不是就往這個方向前進專案報告是比較嚴肅一點大家可以討論一下要不要到專案報告的程度但是以書面報告來加強說明我想當然是合理的狀況"},{"start":3289.634,"end":3314.35,"text":"不過我想原民會的預算本來就已經在不多了,尤其我們經過前面幾個月,大家會從進法啦,從各式各樣都可以了解其實原民會要做的事情很多,要照顧族人的事項很多,但經費其實本來就已經相對是沒有那麼多的預算之下,那我們是不是可以考慮就如果他們說的好,我們是不是可以考慮今天在這裡我們就不要簡列了啦"},{"start":3315.611,"end":3328.981,"text":"這個我個人是比較傾向於我支持要說明白講清楚把報告寫好不過真的原民會預算我們在看確實是沒有那麼多啦是不是大家可以考慮一下要怎麼做決定等一下了"},{"start":3336.189,"end":3355.342,"text":"不是啦等一下那個委員我建議啦齁那個因為這是稅出整個的稅出嘛齁是不是我們先先最後再處理啦先我們先從第一幕各幕討論完也許就說不定比這個撿的更多"},{"start":3359.534,"end":3359.894,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":3390.596,"end":3391.526,"text":"請問各位委員有沒有什麼"},{"start":3401.954,"end":3402.575,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查"},{"start":3424.268,"end":3424.288,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":3440.469,"end":3440.509,"text":"一、繼續審。二、繼續審"},{"start":3460.226,"end":3485.956,"text":"主委在這邊經過民眾黨的黃國昌委員質詢的時候你也的確覺得是出了問題那所以呢在這個部分我們要簡列一百萬要凍結三分之一希望我們的原民會在三個月之內向立法院的內政委員會提出相關你們制度法制化的專案報告均同意之後才可以凍結以上我簡列的報告因為麥玉珍委員好像你們的"},{"start":3486.716,"end":3490.617,"text":"對於這個部分是同樣的意見,對嗎?好,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。我們的意見一樣,但是我們是動10%啦。就是我們也是希望說我們的原住民委員會在3個月內要向我們提出書面報告,說明批判的具體的情形,還有資格。所以我們也是動了10%。"},{"start":3515.816,"end":3523.48,"text":"就大概這樣子的說明,因為我們要書面去說明,我們也沒有來溝通,所以我們也是維持動詞派。還有沒有其他委員?民眾黨適當百分之十,那麼我其實也同意民眾黨的意見。好,謝謝。現在是整個第一幕都可以發言?當然當然,對對對。"},{"start":3544.075,"end":3568.329,"text":"本席是針對我們這個基本行政工作他有講到什麼業務費底下檔案搬遷那這個支出過高用途不明所以我們也希望能夠跟內政委員會提出專案報告我們了解之後我們再來動之好說明以上"},{"start":3577.225,"end":3604.904,"text":"最佳預算的時間。蘇委員主席因為現在原民會有正在跟前面的幾位委員在溝通那因為我想要先就這個我22案來這邊先做說明雖然它是等一下第二幕那我想因為就快到了趁他們溝通的時間我先講一下我的態度"},{"start":3605.504,"end":3607.105,"text":"我的22案其實是蠻簡單的就是我上一次質詢過的部分就是我一直覺得原民會就如同我剛剛說的他的事務實在是太多光憑原民會一個單位其實我覺得是很辛苦的"},{"start":3620.99,"end":3636.24,"text":"但同時正因為這樣他就應該跟各部會要加強溝通聯繫互動的能力所以有特別舉海洋發展的這個部分來尋求他跟海委會之間要有互動溝通的狀況同一個計劃其實可以兩個單位合作"},{"start":3640.282,"end":3651.535,"text":"好那可是呢從我上次質詢完畢他們也說好好好會會會了之後那其實即便有來跟我們的辦公室溝通可是我覺得提出來的方向並沒有按照我們需求我們認為應該有的改進的方向改進的方向來提出"},{"start":3659.264,"end":3659.284,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":3674.201,"end":3703.026,"text":"所以這樣的部分我是覺得這個溝通的部分我是還沒有辦法接受所以我22案的部分現在是有一個凍結預算50案我是希望繼續維持我的案子要提出書面報告也就是我從質詢時候要求的是同樣的道理書面報告提出之後使得凍結那同樣的道理我的136案也是一樣的狀況也一樣是質詢過的部分我也是希望能夠提出這個有改進方向"},{"start":3704.166,"end":3711.93,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。"},{"start":3718.861,"end":3744.239,"text":"我還是繼續維持我凍結的意見謝謝高軍委員非常謝謝蘇巧惠委員可能他待會巧惠你待會要說你先講第二幕對不對好沒關係好謝謝那我現在我們還是回到第一幕來第一幕的第五頁我剛剛已經說完了是政務人員的待遇那大家看一下第11頁跟第12頁第11頁就是在他業務費裡面的水電費"},{"start":3747.041,"end":3763.055,"text":"這個就是我剛剛說的在112年、113年也好我們的原民會一直以來在他的水電費裡面他是跟我講啦但是我不接受他是跟我講說他們都把那個水電費寫得很少"},{"start":3764.176,"end":3787.334,"text":"但是寫得很少但是他們的支出卻很多所以很奇怪莫名其妙原民會你們應該是每年的水電費支出多少你們應該就很清楚嘛怎麼可能會寫得那麼不清不楚然後在114年我們看到你的水電費居然升高了那麼多然後"},{"start":3788.195,"end":3812.472,"text":"每天幾乎增加了一萬塊,要付的水電費是一萬塊。所以我認為原民會你們主計單位、你們主計處,你們是不是很奇怪?主計處,你跟我來說明一下,為什麼你們往年的水電費都可以寫得那麼少,但是你們實際是出了那麼多,然後在今年你們可以寫那麼多,這是什麼意思?"},{"start":3815.898,"end":3841.418,"text":"主席單位,你可以說明嗎?還是主委你說明一下?報告立法委員大聲一點好嗎?我們聽不太清楚好,那個跟委員做說明那以往我們為什麼水電費都沒有辦法編組實際上是因為近三年來整個電費調漲幅度已經超過30%那行政院考量到整個電費的"},{"start":3842.799,"end":3848.502,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":3868.833,"end":3896.19,"text":"這樣子告訴我們是會漲電價的意思是不是?因為我們這三年來其實我們編明年度的預算其實是核實在編列啦那你為什麼我現在問你就是以前為什麼不核實編列?因為以前沒有預算可以編列所以所以我們都沒有預算編列沒有預算編列那你們是怎麼樣處理的?你們是從哪裡哪裡拿出這些錢來雲支你的水電隊?我們從一般行政的業務費裡面去做流用"},{"start":3896.55,"end":3925.166,"text":"那以後往年是不是要寫好?對,我知道。對,我們會檢討。哇,原民會你們很誇張哦。我相信大家都在笑了。光新進的委員都覺得在笑了。可以這樣啊。原民會,所以我剛剛就講說為什麼今年特別看你們的預算?因為你們連水電費都可以從一般行政裡面去融資耶。而且這是每年要給的錢耶。對,我們會檢討,所以我們明年都核實來做一個編列。你是主計單位嗎?我是秘書室主任。"},{"start":3926.166,"end":3954.386,"text":"主席有沒有來?主席?委員好,是。應該妳來跟大家說明吧?可以這樣子嗎?委員跟妳報告一下,因為往年的部分呢,確實就是他們可能在計劃排列的部分。他們?應該是妳吧?對對對,是我們。怎麼叫他們?抱歉,就是我們原民會在編列的時候,確實一直以來呢,有關預算那個水電費的部分,一直以來確實是編的比較不足。那可能原則上都是優先計,"},{"start":3954.986,"end":3979.163,"text":"支應計劃,但事實上水電費我們在支應的時候是按照整個大樓的管理費去做分攤所以它其實是有一定的分攤基礎那這三年來呢其實水電費已經漲了大概30%所以其實呢我們在整個支用上面單體上的幅度其實就是跟著水電費的幅度去做同比例其實沒有什麼大變化那所以今年是因為就像剛剛秘書室主任報告的在114年度的時候"},{"start":3982.485,"end":4010.196,"text":"行政院有特別徵付給我們水電費因為看到我們這個數字確實是偏低所以今年有徵付我們就把它核實編列再加上明年其實還有一個地方就是原博館因為明年會有原博館的籌劃在原博館籌劃之後它其實也會有它的水電費需要支援因為它是一個博物館所以它的水電費相對也必須要納列進來所以今年的水電費其實又包含了一大塊是屬於原博館以上跟委員做說明"},{"start":4011.616,"end":4030.001,"text":"你能不能再寫清楚一下好不好文字上給我說清楚因為我們在裡面上面看的話是真的是你高出了三、四倍以上那我可不可以再問你一個問題為什麼往年那個主計處不給你們編合編組你們有跟主計單位說明你們的痛苦嗎你們實際上是交那麼多但是他不給你編列那麼多"},{"start":4039.183,"end":4040.104,"text":"因為我是老公務員"},{"start":4068.22,"end":4074.308,"text":"他剛剛主席主任講的沒有錯啦他就是一個額度給你"},{"start":4075.438,"end":4077.038,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4107.378,"end":4130.09,"text":"對不起我的第11頁跟第12頁這個都是在一般事務費裡面的那剛剛講到的水電費我們請這個原民會的主計單位你給我說清楚書面的說清楚其實呢往年一直以來行政院的主計單位並沒有編組水電費預算給你們對不對"},{"start":4133.331,"end":4133.351,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":4151.517,"end":4164.977,"text":"按照這種水電費的東西行政院的主計單位應該要核實的告訴你們編了多少明年應該要也不會超出這個很大的範圍嘛應該要給你們嘛"},{"start":4167,"end":4192.596,"text":"不是說每次給你們那麼少然後你們要從別的業務費去挪資嘛這個就是我一直在跟你們說的你們原民會有那麼多錢可以從哪裡雲來雲去嗎然後行政院表面上又說給我們原住民原民會很多預算你們不覺得好像在穿小鞋嗎今天我們原住民的立委在幫你們講話耶所以主委"},{"start":4193.703,"end":4205.558,"text":"我要你們的主計單位把往年的水電費沒有編足給你們要用文字化具體寫出來然後以後都不可以這個樣子"},{"start":4207.062,"end":4224.451,"text":"可以嗎?那如果這個部分可以這樣子的話,那我同意你們用書面。另外再來就是一般事務費裡面的搬遷費用,搬遷費用你們也增加了400多萬,那請問一下搬遷什麼東西?為什麼增加那麼多?"},{"start":4230.454,"end":4251.596,"text":"跟立委委員報告,那增加這個一般書費425萬7千,主要有三個部分,兩個部分,第一個就是大樓管理費的部分,那這個部分我們是按照我們各進駐機關持分的這個面積的比例,像我們的話是……這也是往年都有啊對,那就是以前也是沒有編組,所以……"},{"start":4254.038,"end":4263.525,"text":"所以我們面積是4923每坪200元所以會不會很奇怪大家今天在看你們仔細看你們的預算以後會發現應該要編族的行政院不給你編族"},{"start":4270.269,"end":4270.309,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":4291.613,"end":4304.055,"text":"你們有像我這樣子跟行政院的主計處說嗎?他不給你嗎?報告委員,原則上我們在爭取的時候呢那個重要的我們都會列在計畫上面那當然行政院他會有他的考量然後核給我們一定的額度"},{"start":4305.595,"end":4332.521,"text":"我再問妳,妳回答的不一樣耶。我再問妳,妳們有沒有告訴他說,OK,我們多出來的這些行政大樓的一些搬那個費用啊等等啊,是我的水電費,請妳把這個核實的給我。有沒有講過這句話?應該是說我們在報額度給行政院的時候,我們上面是用計劃的項目來列。計劃項目,那我為什麼在你們的預算裡面沒有看到這個,妳給行政院的這個那麼詳實的計劃?"},{"start":4334.502,"end":4344.255,"text":"因為預算書是已經整編過的,那提額度是依照行政院的額度的那個表件,是依照它的規範的規格去提報。我知道,但是你們有問題啊,你們有問題啊,你們長年以來就是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":4351.492,"end":4379.629,"text":"所以114年度我要求你們以後不可以再這樣子這兩筆我可以讓你們用書面來好不好但是往後不可以如此一定要告訴組織單位這個要核實給我而不是讓我們從你這樣子的話我們都會覺得原民會很多錢欸你們都可以從別的地方去雲之喔那還好我們今天看得很細是需要的我們等一下會看到不是很細的你們也雲之喔"},{"start":4382.484,"end":4394.1,"text":"二、繼續審政委員如果要發言的話就發言。"},{"start":4398.018,"end":4420.106,"text":"那我是建議就是說因為現在凍結的額度除了高金蘇美委員的凍結的額度還有民眾黨的凍結的額度是不是我們能夠凍結是不是"},{"start":4422.441,"end":4426.422,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":4450.697,"end":4451.377,"text":"我們是維持凍結10%"},{"start":4479.727,"end":4487.316,"text":"對,就是,對,對啊,對,所以,一般,一般對,對"},{"start":4494.811,"end":4504.197,"text":"主委的特別預算我們也是有在簡略簡略這個部分我們也有在我們的書面這邊有寫這個我們堅持這兩個謝謝蚊仔那個蚊仔委員"},{"start":4521.539,"end":4528.798,"text":"我們給政委員都說了啦他也是資深的啦我們尊重給他的面子我們尊重他一下啦"},{"start":4530.457,"end":4550.847,"text":"因為他剛上任,主任委員剛上任,特別費先...好啦,我們是不是就...這樣子吧,因為我在第五案也有啦我是一般行政的人員維持費、人事費還有政務人員的待遇"},{"start":4551.707,"end":4580.315,"text":"我簡列100萬然後凍結三分之一然後尤其是這個這個祖群委員的部分我相信祖群委員部分主委你應該認為也有一點缺失對吧所以呢凍結簡列你100萬應該不會影響很多凍結你這個三分之一也不會很多希望你們來到大院裡面來到我們那個內政委員會裡面來說明一下好不好好"},{"start":4581.815,"end":4603.768,"text":"我會再跟委員說明是跟我們所有的委員說明尤其民眾黨黃國昌委員對於族群委員是非常有意見的我已經比麥玉珍委員少了很多了這是我非常堅持如果你們有意見的話我們就堅持麥玉珍委員的"},{"start":4606.94,"end":4634.346,"text":"不會,我們也有跟賣衣服委員說明我們就讓你們有說明啦但是在第一幕裡面就請大家能夠堅持我就是減略一百萬,凍結三分之一三分之一不多啦其實他的那個整個三億一千一百多嘛他總共在第一幕裡面總共一般行政費是三億多嘛對啊,那我們凍結三分之一的話是不是對啊"},{"start":4635.836,"end":4635.856,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":4667.538,"end":4667.558,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":4686.201,"end":4706.574,"text":"不是你整幕動一千萬你根本動不到族群委員我覺得你如果要其他要包我覺得OK但是我覺得有幾個重點的東西你要獨立處理可不可以這樣如果可以這樣我覺得比較好商量老大我意思是說現在這一幕比較大的爭議對於族群委員是一部分所以這部分我們要獨立有一個說法我們會遇到時你再說大家會"},{"start":4725.825,"end":4732.449,"text":"那不然我是覺得那族群委員這一派我是覺得不然你就第一個是看最後法律審法律處理的結果"},{"start":4737.573,"end":4744.919,"text":"我只有在719萬4千萬,在原民族委的特質費裡面減一百萬,然後在這個700多萬裡面凍結一百萬。"},{"start":4762.492,"end":4791.517,"text":"主席,您現在的參訪跟我們也有意見,我們說一下好不好?我們是不是要做一下?因為您參訪有意見的,在這我也要...這個政務人員的待遇是不是他的心碎?因為我講實在的,您這個原住民"},{"start":4793.021,"end":4797.143,"text":"主委跟副主委"},{"start":4816.95,"end":4844.967,"text":"為什麼不寫清楚一點,有疑問,你們要跟他們解釋清楚一點。因為像你現在說,我們看的,我是說政府人員的待遇,待遇是特別會。這是聽察的地方,我要說喔。特別會是這個候派書要寫出來的錢耶。對阿咧。"},{"start":4847.281,"end":4858.708,"text":"不是啦!不是說不能刪!你們要說清楚、講明白!特別會!各管制各主管也有特別會!對吧?以上!"},{"start":4858.708,"end":4861.77,"text":"早晚謝謝!特別會!像這些都不拿出來看!對啊!還要做誰騎喔?還要跟我們說話?"},{"start":4883.882,"end":4884.042,"text":"我直接講齁?"},{"start":4898.544,"end":4920.388,"text":"那各位委員、各位同仁那我們就整幕第一幕一般行政我們整幕凍結兩千萬所有委員的提案並按處理然後專案報告後使得動之有沒有意見好那我們第一幕就這樣處理好謝謝大家那我們來第二幕"},{"start":4922.421,"end":4933.452,"text":"主席,第2部會議中綜合規劃時本席在此順有講過,我們改名時原住民去獲證改名給人請示,我認為長久以來,我們原民會沒有積極本席跟他們討論這件事。"},{"start":4948.51,"end":4949.712,"text":"阿嬤說要怎麼做,是不是我們的單位開工節,好不好?因為我是覺得凍結我們的預算一百萬齁"},{"start":4963.854,"end":4983.442,"text":"剛剛委員說明就是確實這幾年都有因為原住民的姓名而遭到歧視的這個事件所以我們後來查出這個原因應該主要就是因為主流社會對原住民族的這個傳統姓名的認知不夠所以接下來我們已經跟內政部會合作去製作這個原住民傳統名字的指引"},{"start":4984.062,"end":5010.66,"text":"那另外我們也會跟這個與法會合作就是把這個原住民的傳統名字它的意義到底是什麼因為我們看到比如說像吉利吉勞公冠或許它背後有它的意義那我想主流社會一旦了解了它背後的這個意義跟它的文化內涵之後呢應該會減少這樣的一個狀況來減少這樣狀況的發生所以我們這邊所編列的這筆預算主要的目的就是希望能夠透過這筆預算去達成這個社會溝通的一個目的"},{"start":5014.161,"end":5019.764,"text":"因為我認為溝通是溝通,我認為要積極,因為在這裡我動輒一百萬,是希望你們趕緊做在這個國會以來,向我們內政提出要怎麼去改善、要怎麼去做的執行規劃裡面。"},{"start":5036.929,"end":5063.872,"text":"醫療才會使得動之啦因為我感覺說長久以來我沒看到你們有積極的做法醫生謝謝謝謝委員非常謝謝高金委員先的好不好不好意思高金委員我可以請中規處您大概跟大家說明一下中規處現在所有的員額你們做的事情你跟大家說明一下好不好因為現在有一些新進的委員"},{"start":5065.247,"end":5065.267,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":5085.143,"end":5111.605,"text":"你來說明一下你們有多少人?好,跟委員報告,我們目前中規處的員額是38位,然後我們總共分成四個科,應該從四個科可以比較知道說我們目前在推動的工作。我們的第一科就是綜合規劃及管制考核科,那它主要負責的工作是這個我們的整個政策規劃還有我們的計劃的管考,還有再來就是我們的這個都市地區原住民族發展方案。"},{"start":5112.806,"end":5122.874,"text":"其他的一些內部的管考作業。第二是資訊科。資訊科除了原民會內部資訊系統的維護之外,也負責兩個比較大的中產人計畫,一個是愛部落的計畫,另外一個就是智慧治理的計畫,那就是資訊科。"},{"start":5138.087,"end":5146.11,"text":"法治科主要負責原住民族自治法案的研擬、職端同意辦法執行、修正、平埔族群法案的研擬、其他所有跟原民有關的法案。總共多少人?38"},{"start":5165.276,"end":5191.868,"text":"三十八人在座,然後你們在這個節目裡面你們有1.5億對不對?是。好,所以呢我在第29頁裡面對於原住民族日的委辦有很大的問題。你們光是這個你們就編了500萬了對吧?是。請問一下原住民日要提供社會大眾應該要有什麼樣的一個概念?我們是希望說透過"},{"start":5192.508,"end":5220.114,"text":"你們是委辦給人家就委辦了嗎?還是你們會要求他們要達到什麼樣的KPI?為什麼長期以來我們原住民的原教跟教育部跟社會大眾做了這麼多的努力我們那麼多的歧視、唯歧視還是存在我們只有在運動場合的時候才會發現原住民是很優秀的包括昨天的世界冠球賽我們就有13位是原住民的族人了"},{"start":5220.974,"end":5243.668,"text":"但是,這是值得高興的,是拍手。但是呢,在我們的一些法案,在我們一些的這個應該要有的一些爭取,包括我們的禁法補償的時候,社會大眾還是不太了解原住民族為什麼一個月要有五千塊的,也就是一年要六萬塊。然後剛開始的時候引起了很多的對原住民的不了解。"},{"start":5244.688,"end":5258.664,"text":"也還好我們是凍結了這個整個預算所以大家才會了解經法補償到底是怎麼回事還有緊接著下來你的中規處還要辦理非常多的業務只有30多個人所以你們一直以來都是委辦"},{"start":5259.605,"end":5275.379,"text":"你們感覺長期以來只要把錢尾巴給別人就OK了就沒事了你們從來也不會覺得說這個錢到底合不合理到底得到的KPI是什麼到底有沒有解決上社會大眾對原住民的歧視跟偽歧視"},{"start":5276.889,"end":5292.851,"text":"你是不是應該檢討一下中規處或者是主委?好,我跟你補充報告一下這個原住民日特別在今年的原住民日我特別要求每一次都只有鄉鎮長、區長來而已我特別加了議員一定要來"},{"start":5293.792,"end":5309.752,"text":"代表會主席一定要來要讓他們了解整個不是只有我們行政人員知道知道怎麼運作錢怎麼做你民意代表不讓他知道說比如說中央的經費下到縣裡面去到底縣裡面不是只有原民處喔也有在也有在社會處也有在這個"},{"start":5311.574,"end":5311.614,"text":"一、繼續審。四、繼續審"},{"start":5341.169,"end":5367.423,"text":"這兩個是非常重要的那你們認為應該怎麼跟教育部跟文化部來合作因為教育部、文化部也謝謝委員過去都有一個平台我們透過這個平台其實我們跟教育部、文化部有經常的這個合作我們也有一些默契可是在原住民日裡面並沒有啊那例如博物館各大博物館請問一下我們原住民日大概是幾月幾號8月1號"},{"start":5369.304,"end":5392.349,"text":"能不能在8月份或是7月份的時候就廣為宣傳讓大家知道8月1號的由來是什麼?為什麼要有原住民日?因為我們都只看到你們在宣傳什麼你知道嗎?這個等一下政委會會講你們都不把原住民為什麼在日據時代開始的那一段歷史過程"},{"start":5393.84,"end":5421.698,"text":"我們的政府都已經切割了原住民的轉型而原民會你們卻不把原住民的轉型把它擴大到年限所以為什麼會有1624我一直在宣導教育部我們不是只有1624啊長期以來原住民遭受到的不公平跟歧視就是一直如此啊一直到現在啊才會有那麼多的孩子要加分大家都認為不應該加分"},{"start":5424.421,"end":5435.722,"text":"那麼多的一個月當中不是在廣為宣傳蔡英文跟原住民道歉了跟我們和解了道歉什麼?和解什麼?"},{"start":5436.926,"end":5457.99,"text":"那道歉和解完了之後接而下來的就是在法案就要推動了啊是不是要往前邁進我們一直以來編了這麼多的錢我們感覺到你們只是委辦給某個人來辦然後就解決了甚至於主委很不好意思我要這樣講你你說原住民是人也是鬼"},{"start":5460.583,"end":5488.079,"text":"這個話真的不應該在你...等一下等一下我知道我是好意我沒有...這個話我沒有去扭曲四人四隊原住民...你看民會都說不應該了你是原民會的主委而且曾經待過我們屏東的文化中心的主任你對於原住民的文化的解釋你要更加小心你如果是在私底下"},{"start":5488.979,"end":5507.555,"text":"我沒有意見,因為原住民本來就是比較能夠調侃自己。那我們的原住民的祭典也的確是在跟祖靈溝通。但是你不能夠用簡單的一句話在一個運動的場合就說我們原住民也是人、也是鬼。"},{"start":5508.736,"end":5535.018,"text":"這句話引起了我們泰雅主任非常大的反彈你知道嗎所以你要檢討要反省一下你身為原民會的主委你曾經是屏東文化中心的主任你站在任何一個場合講話你要特別的注意你可以說我們今天這個活動是在追思祖先我們也許不是追思祖先但是一直以來我們有一盆火是"},{"start":5535.518,"end":5535.538,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":5566.158,"end":5589.888,"text":"我同意美惠說你要凍結一百萬嘛,對不對?很容許我在這邊講得比較冗長一點,因為這個的確是攸關到原住民未來對於全民為原教、全台灣到底理地不理解,或是全世界對於台灣原住民、台灣族人的文化價值、內涵了不了解,非常的重要。雖然他只有五百萬,"},{"start":5590.768,"end":5613.926,"text":"那我當然也不願意刪除掉所以呢我這裡本來是凍結500萬啦那我覺得既然剛剛主委你已經清楚知道你要調減方向你要跟中央部會然後你們應該要事先來討論那一個月當中中央、學校、文化部要如何一起來整合辦理一個僅僅只有500萬的活動讓他"},{"start":5617.388,"end":5641.454,"text":"大一點讓它外加效益更大這是中規處你們要去努力的所以我說中規處你們不是只有每次辦南島文化節啦你們自己在本島在台灣的我們原住民的文化都沒有辦好了你們一直在向外我真的覺得是很奇怪的一件事情所以我要花比較多的時間在這個議題上講我要提醒你們把本業做好你們的人已經不多了"},{"start":5646.135,"end":5670.608,"text":"審查本月做好我可以同意凍結剛剛秘書會說一百萬那我就凍結一百萬但是我們必須你要來做一個專案報告因為這很重要我要用專案報告我要真的瞭解原民會中規處你們到底要跟中央部會要跟地方怎麼來做我們114年度的這個原住民日好嗎以上我很堅持謝謝好謝謝等一下那個黃婕瑋先的好不好黃瑋"},{"start":5676.155,"end":5700.692,"text":"好,我也認同啦,主委在這個事情上面應該發言要特別小心,不要這樣容易被斷章取義,該說明的應該要完整的說明。那我講一下我的提案,因為在中規裡面其實有一筆是健全原住民族的法治經費,那我們也知道說其實行政院人權處在今年5月的時候有公告《反歧視法》裡面,"},{"start":5701.592,"end":5701.993,"text":"二、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":5726.331,"end":5749.67,"text":"的業務才對所以我希望這個你們應該要好好的來做報告跟說明那補充之後我們再來凍結再來解除凍結好謝謝這個是不是跟委員報告我們有提出跟委員報告因為當時行政院在研擬這個反歧視法草案的過程當中有有徵詢各部會的意見當時我們也提出從原住民的角度提供一些意見"},{"start":5750.47,"end":5777.717,"text":"那當然後來就是行政院他所提出的草案裡面因為他們後來就是用族群這個詞來整合我們原民會所提出的意見所以他有提出目前人權處跟我們政院版的反歧視法你們都認同嗎我們當然希望可以再更強化一點對原住民對阿所以這個是希望你們應該要善盡你們表達意見的責任這也是你們的工作好不好"},{"start":5778.857,"end":5790.306,"text":"讓主委知道過去8年來原住民族自治的經費已經編了包括114年度的話就4000多萬"},{"start":5806.501,"end":5834.913,"text":"事實上是不需要的雖然蔡總統說這個105年8月1號說會很快的把原住民族自治法送到立法院結果都沒有連嚴明會都沒有送我要讓主委知道站在你旁邊的姚柏水用處長他當科研的時候就完成草擬了原住民族自治法不用花一毛錢的"},{"start":5836.596,"end":5848.631,"text":"所以花4000多萬是不需要的所以明年的這些經費全部作為對整個原住民族的政策制度有幫助的"},{"start":5849.731,"end":5866.178,"text":"不要去做那些大內宣、大外宣然後結果都沒有意義沒有幫助的好不好那個我支持那個高金素美委員剛才講的那個就凍結一百萬了好了,總要報告,以上然後再來是吳立華委員"},{"start":5870.711,"end":5890.119,"text":"好,謝謝主席在第二幕這個地方我有三個43、45、第52那這個部分我大概也已經有請他們來做說明那我這邊43案是測案52案是測案那45案的話是該組決議"},{"start":5896.937,"end":5898.839,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5909.034,"end":5933.556,"text":"在這裡我也透過很多次的質詢甚至是院會的總質詢就是不斷表達關於我們很多土地關於舊部落的增化邊或者是有一些地區的地權問題這個都是長年的問題所以我有特別特別要求說要趕快來處理"},{"start":5937.26,"end":5940.003,"text":"自治相關作業重規處在總質詢時院長有回應"},{"start":5950.635,"end":5953.778,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":5967.373,"end":5983.7,"text":"自己做過原轉會的委員所以長年也都在那個地方呼籲推動所以我想這個自治示範點也有得到原民會的一個允諾會找兩到三個另外我也是特別要求"},{"start":5984.44,"end":6013.72,"text":"就是部落公法人至少要重新開啟分區座談因為我常常講原住民自治要推動但是大家的想像不一一直沒有共識連要自治的事項是什麼或者是大家要怎麼做所以我也就是透過這個部分強烈要求部落公法人要有事半點所以在這個部分大概很多的法治作業的相關推動"},{"start":6014.46,"end":6014.5,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":6035.802,"end":6035.822,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":6052.529,"end":6075.503,"text":"我覺得你們就是要做出成績要拿出這樣的一個決心還有執行力該做的要做不能夠成為每一次我們質詢或者是每一次在這個地方去做審查的時候不斷不斷被拿出來講那我覺得下一次如果還是這樣那就真的要大三了希望原民會加油謝謝"},{"start":6076.84,"end":6100.531,"text":"好 請入委員好 謝謝主席最主要是我這邊是第二幕的54案看一下那我就為什麼會提這個就是10月份的時候我有參加南島嶼的那個十國青年禮秀的一個開學典禮啦或者是結訓典禮可是我有問他們說你們剛才在哪一個單位他們說他們去參訪了原民會"},{"start":6101.651,"end":6124.413,"text":"結果他們來立法院的時候沒有文明會的人來陪同我覺得很奇怪你既然是在推動國際事務你也沒有跟外交部做很好的連結這些學生跑到來立法院拜訪的時候你們也沒有派人來你們到底在重視什麼畢業典禮的時候我去的時候也只有一個不知道是你們的科長還是什麼那我總覺得你跟南寶嶼國家"},{"start":6126.114,"end":6148.727,"text":"來交流的時候我們應該站在主導的地位因為我們就是南島有國民族的人啊你外交部如果來主導這件事情的話你應該要積極參與結果你們就等於是等於是完全是外交部在主導給你編這個錢幹嘛呢然後第二個就是說他們在表演的時候如果是很好的一個畢業典禮的話應該是我們原住民歡迎去來表演"},{"start":6149.347,"end":6169.95,"text":"結果他們是請當地台北市一個也不是原住民的人在跳一個大西地的舞你不覺得很似不像嗎?所以我是覺得說我們今天做到在推展國際外交因為說我們是南島民族的起源可是你在做這件事情的時候沒有站在主導的角色的時候覺得這個經費真的是要好好的來審查好不好?"},{"start":6172.323,"end":6187.217,"text":"這個部分跟委員說明就是我們那個太平洋島國青年領袖來台灣的時候確實他們整體的行程是外交部安排那但是他們有來拜會原民會然後後來我們也安排了三天有到那個屏東跟台東的部落去做參訪所以其實原民會在這裡面是有扮演角色的"},{"start":6187.697,"end":6203.38,"text":"那另外委員所提到的那個開幕跟閉幕齁我們開幕的時候是邀請臺灣原住民的舞團去為他們做一個開幕的表演那結束的時候應該委員參加結訓的時候嘛是大西地的所以其實我們兩邊南島語族的兩個地方都有邀請跟委員說明謝謝"},{"start":6206.26,"end":6213.968,"text":"就預算的部分我還是堅決是要凍結20%希望你們有做一個明年度的規劃一個生命報告來給內政委員會我們來討論謝謝"},{"start":6222.092,"end":6241.597,"text":"主委,我有請你們說明,你們才說明,不是你自己說明好不好,要尊重我們立法院好不好。然後,現在是輪到吳啓明委員,不好意思。主席,我們一位同仁,針對我們的中規發展處,它所編列的一億五千多萬,"},{"start":6242.657,"end":6243.678,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六"},{"start":6263.47,"end":6266.772,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":6293.428,"end":6296.15,"text":"博留原本沒有原名字典"},{"start":6316.624,"end":6336.734,"text":"你們在那邊替他編這個原名字典這個部分用途不明而且沒有實際需求所以我們減列50萬那另外在第21案的部分我們是特別針對原住民社宅興建進度太過緩慢太過緩慢所以我們希望這個"},{"start":6338.855,"end":6347.066,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。四、繼續審查"},{"start":6357.819,"end":6378.446,"text":"我們對於原住民、原民會對於這個現在捕獵臺灣猕猴、山羌、梅花鹿這些盜獵的新聞一直都有那因為這些東西這些行為都應該要經過主管機關的核准那但是這些案件都沒有經過主管機關核准我們覺得"},{"start":6380.966,"end":6397.372,"text":"原民主管機關有失職之餘,所以預算凍結10%。三、繼續審第三十九案有關原住民族智慧治理和智慧科技部落生活環境應用模式。"},{"start":6398.132,"end":6427.251,"text":"前面三年你們都一直進行資料彙整這麼多錢五千多萬你彙整資料彙整三年我都沒有看到任何成效所以這個部分我們覺得原民會應該要加速工作進行而且要讓我們看到你真的有如你所預期的這個執行的成果出來提出整個改善方案做專案報告之後我們才考慮是否解凍"},{"start":6428.592,"end":6457.118,"text":"接著第59案,59案的部分就是有關宣傳我們也發現這個很多宣傳費用編了但是我們都沒有看到實際的你這種特別好像這個118.7萬你都只有講說刊登在各個平台管道但是沒有任何的剛剛高金委員也說都沒有任何的KPI所以"},{"start":6459.418,"end":6470.44,"text":"我們看到你刊登廣告次數但是具體的效益我們沒有看到這個宣傳效益太低所以我們也是凍結你這個是2000多萬我凍結你118.7萬提出專案報告之後我們再來看是否解凍再來還有第60案"},{"start":6488.223,"end":6510.89,"text":"六十案就是簡略的最後61案61案的部分也是我們網站網站的部分我們看到你整個網站你都沒有想說我們一般有網站或有任何宣傳的平台我們都希望使用人次我們要去了解而不是只是"},{"start":6512.23,"end":6537.58,"text":"消耗預算但是我其實都沒看出成果所以這個部分我們希望也能夠有專案的說明把我們整個論壇的你這個使用人次、服務品質、調查方案以及你達成你所要達成的目標需要的時間你能夠提出具體的計劃那專案報告之後我們再考慮是否可以動之以上謝謝"},{"start":6538.801,"end":6539.926,"text":"主席請高經委員先的高經委員"},{"start":6545.017,"end":6574.188,"text":"主席抱歉吼我建議吼因為現在大家好像就是第二幕裡面就通通講完了這樣子吼那對對對我們可不可以這樣子就是因為縱使是第二幕吼但是他還是有分一下有分比如說呃我的第41案我們還是還沒有講到南島吼那有委員已經講到南島了那我就不知道要怎麼跳是不是我們就是雖然是第二幕我們還是按照案案案子"},{"start":6574.548,"end":6577.349,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、"},{"start":6600.04,"end":6606.389,"text":"那個原民會的中規處你們有講了齁你們真正的其實主要業務在法治上面對不對請那個處長我們在法治跟綜合規劃還有資訊還有國際"},{"start":6613.93,"end":6633.685,"text":"對,非常多嘛。法治其實就是屬於內部原住民的事務嘛。那我們一直來談到的原住民的都原條例、屠海法、原住民自治法、部落公法人等等的,都是在你的處裡面要來處理。"},{"start":6635.146,"end":6635.166,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":6652.222,"end":6678.261,"text":"法制部份是五個人所以你們有很多其實要跟行政院講的就是你們的原額到底足不足有那麼多的法我剛剛一直說都是從原運時代就開始在講的為什麼一直以來沒有辦法從行政院送出來這些法規然後所以我的建議"},{"start":6679.994,"end":6680.934,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查"},{"start":6702.625,"end":6728.604,"text":"時間放在出國啊剛剛就要待會又要談到你們的南島的計畫了你們本業務不做好一直在做別他的外交部的業務文化部的業務你們很奇怪欸所以我先在第41案裡面提這個部分來看請問一下其他的委員在這個部分有沒有其他的相關的提案不好意思謝謝"},{"start":6729.861,"end":6749.701,"text":"我跟各位委員報告我們內政委員會我們以前都是整幕大家都可以發言而且這樣子考他們考試他們才會這樣不然你就一個一個來他們我們要考試我們從以前內政委員會就是這樣要給他們考試不照題目來的好不好來換王委員"},{"start":6753.939,"end":6760.523,"text":"主席,在此我要來請教說,我有提出35案,因為凍結一百萬,在這裏面生化原住民的智慧治理計劃裏面,這種是適當適當,但我看沒什麼作為沒打緊,這是改兩年,現有的建構新的生化。"},{"start":6784.059,"end":6791.183,"text":"跟我要請教說,你們未來怎麼做,搞不好前一陣子,這四天是,我看你們的資料,我覺得做了不滿意,是不是可以在就這個時間補充一下,以上。"},{"start":6816.707,"end":6818.512,"text":"主席,現在你沒有叫他們講話,他們不敢講話。"},{"start":6872.713,"end":6886.061,"text":"主席,看待會要做一次解說,大家都很忙,要做一次來,還是怎樣?都會三天,看你要求。主席,我拜託你回應一下。"},{"start":6890.542,"end":6915.859,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們這個建構原住民族智慧治理計畫它第一期的四年計畫主要是要我們先去盤點這個原住民族再提出政策過程當中所碰到的一些痛點因為我們後來發現就是說我們很多原住民族的相關資料它其實是分散在除了原民會之外其他部會甚至地方政府它都有一些基礎的資料在那個地方所以我們是希望透過這個"},{"start":6917.16,"end":6926.986,"text":"智慧治理平臺建制,把相關數據收集起來。四、建立決策機制,例如設立文化健康站,需要部落點位、GPS、人口資料、健康資料,包括點位附近的安全等資料,整合起來之後,"},{"start":6944.956,"end":6968.458,"text":"當我們要做文件站的設立的選點的時候呢,我們只要進入這個智慧治理系統裡面,它可以馬上把這些數據展現出來,那我們就可以知道說,我們按照我們的數據來看的話,這個地方是不是適合來設置這個文化健康站。那我們在第一年,第一期四年裡面,我們基本上已經完成了這個基本的一個架構的一個建置,然後也把一些資料都已經匯整過來。"},{"start":6970.64,"end":6984.5,"text":"那也跟委員特別報告一下為什麼我們要花這麼長的時間去收集資料主要是因為各部會跟地方政府的這個資料的格式標準不一樣所以它變成在借接的時候會有一些困難所以我們花了一點時間去處理這個借接的問題"},{"start":6985.862,"end":6987.143,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":7013.773,"end":7028.463,"text":"這資料做更多元的運用讓我們的原民會甚至說將來可以開放給提供資料的那些機關在做原民政策決策的過程當中它有一個充分的數據支持所以我們第二期是希望朝向這樣的一個目標去前進"},{"start":7029.58,"end":7038.602,"text":"主席,剛才他這樣說,我也希望他們的書面上來,讓大家看看我的意見,覺得要有作為,因為四檔四檔喔,不是跟四檔你跟這個簡單說而已,在本事所看,覺得這四檔沒做得很好,是不是可以書面上來跟各位,"},{"start":7056.638,"end":7059.859,"text":"我這邊有在這個項目裡面辦理碎石記憶價的宣傳費120萬我想要了解一下碎石記憶的價從什麼時候開始執行"},{"start":7084.505,"end":7108.734,"text":"請說明,從什麼時候開始有可以請稅時計價?可以開始請稅時計價的時間...它是一百...一百零三年的時候可以開始請稅所以已經執行十幾年的東西為什麼你還要再編這個宣傳的費用?在場的原住民的朋友應該也都知道我們稅時價可以請價嘛那為什麼我們要再花一百二十億宣傳說這是要宣傳給向誰宣傳?"},{"start":7111.772,"end":7139.974,"text":"我們覺得這個主要是因為原住民都知道這件事情但是有很多僱主他不曉得甚至說他不曉得要怎麼給假這件事情因為我以前的經驗就是我們有參加祭典的話我們都有邀請函公所或是縣府或是一般來講連甚至村裡面他都會提供一些邀請函或是一些公文他都可以請假的啊那為什麼這個東西還要再花120萬去所以本期這邊是建議這個要刪掉啦因為我實在不太了解為什麼這個還要再旋轉"},{"start":7142.561,"end":7160.915,"text":"因為我們確實還有很多狀況就是說僱主不給假的情形所以我們希望說能夠透過這個方式一方面也要讓原住民知道說如果僱主不給假你有哪些救濟的管道那另外就是我們也希望就是說僱主能夠確實依據這個依法來給假謝謝我想這個其他委員應該很多意見我們聽聽看其他意見"},{"start":7165.697,"end":7167.618,"text":"我搞不好記得比你還清楚啊"},{"start":7193.337,"end":7193.477,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":7218.078,"end":7242.683,"text":"你除非只有原民台單獨處理原民台單獨處理本來就有預算可以做所以我覺得你額外在編這個預算真的是跌床駕屋的嫌疑是很大而且你這個預算以前也沒有編過突然之間跑出來編剛剛建民委員會講很有道理你103年就開始有碎石記憶架然後跟大家又相關其實該放早就放了如果到現在還沒有放那是僱主的問題嘛你應該是思考的是怎麼裁罰僱主讓他們可以守法嘛"},{"start":7243.342,"end":7252.999,"text":"而不是說我還是再去做軟性的宣導都已經走10年了還在軟性宣導我認為強度也不夠啦所以我認為這個東西名不正言不順啦支持建民委員的意見把它簡列以上謝謝"},{"start":7255.976,"end":7275.946,"text":"來 這個齁 其實我也要說一下齁 這個真的齁 我要不要簡略要不要凍結到時候再說不過我真的覺得 你們原住民 原民會的網站就給他用一個網站讓我們所有原住民就直接去download法條 把法條直接拿給雇主都不用花錢啦"},{"start":7277.758,"end":7298.414,"text":"你只是要讓僱主知道而已啊。你在法條上面把它制式的格式,讓所有的原住民朋友都可以,我就把法條download下來,我就拿給僱主看。你如果不准價,你會受到什麼處罰?這樣子就好啦。我也覺得這個其實可以這樣做啊。好不好?不好意思喔,高經緯。我同意。"},{"start":7299.895,"end":7318.245,"text":"我來接續一下美會委員提的那個部分我覺得美會委員提的是很有道理的那你這邊這個綜合規劃發展、政策發展還有行政資訊化的經費你今年編了九千多萬了"},{"start":7319.385,"end":7347.153,"text":"當然我了解你剛剛講的大數據要建構大數據可是我同意你這個大數據因為你這邊也寫得很清楚各部會的數據資料庫沒有提供原住民為條件的搜尋模式所以對於我們不同地區的原住民族族人要制定最適當的施政方針例如農委會沒有建立原住民農民的基礎數據"},{"start":7348.933,"end":7368.963,"text":"勞動部也沒有原住民勞工的這些基礎資料衛福部也沒有掌握原住民醫護人員的分部數據這些情況這些我覺得你是必要要做的但是我要再針對一個部分就是現在114年度即將開增碳稅了"},{"start":7371.044,"end":7394.303,"text":"所以我也希望對於原住民保留地的林地的樹種、面積、範圍相關的資訊有密切關係你是不是也是要跟這個部會來嫁接一下所有的資訊我剛剛也在講到你在資訊的部分只有3、4個人在做這件事情我想請問你們在跟各部會"},{"start":7397.366,"end":7425.635,"text":"嫁接這些資料庫的時候有沒有什麼困難度還是你們都很順暢?請問周銘跟委員說明這個其實我們在起步的時候確實很困難因為我們需要的資料有很多是涉及到各自各自的資料所以當時很多的部會甚至司法院、地方政府都不太願意提供所以我們後來就成立了一個由我們副主委所召集的一個工作小組他是一個跨部會的工作小組"},{"start":7426.355,"end":7454.044,"text":"我們通過那個小組去不斷協商之後那現在各部會提供資訊就比較沒有困難那接下來我們也會參加那個國發會他所建制的T-Road我們會直接用系統跟系統對接的方式去取得這些資料所以請問一下現在有哪幾個部會跟你們還是不加借這些資料?你有多多利用我們立法委員啊?不是你從來也沒跟我們提過這些事情"},{"start":7455.438,"end":7461.62,"text":"我們現在對接資料的總共有13個部會好 這13個部會都OK嗎?順暢嗎?現在都OK了好 那剛剛美惠說她要凍結100萬我本來是要凍結500萬那麼我也支持美惠說凍結100萬然後我希望你們要有一個時程包括不僅是跟其他的部會要這樣你跟你自己的那個經發處也要啊或者是我們現在不是有一些資料"},{"start":7485.487,"end":7509.002,"text":"對於各企業,你們應該也有資料吧?那所以剛剛就回到,你根本不需要花這個宣傳費,那麼少的宣傳費去做,要放假。你可以有這些資料,data之後呢,你就行文給各公司去啊。公家機關是很容易,那民營企業,那你就行文去讓他們知道說一定要放假嘛,對不對?"},{"start":7509.462,"end":7510.863,"text":"三個月之內提供資料讓我們清楚知道你們要做些什麼"},{"start":7534.5,"end":7543.473,"text":"然後你們的期程要做到什麼樣的狀況,讓我們知道。第二個,剛剛的宣傳費用我建議是刪除掉。謝謝。林委員"},{"start":7549.148,"end":7567.523,"text":"謝謝主席這剛剛大概有開始進入到這個智慧科技跟部落生活的應用的這個題目這裡面有一項我們有查出來一個問題就是說你們在這個說明裡面有寫你們要辦理原住民部落智慧科技與生活環境的應用模式的實證論壇有這件事嗎?明年能辦嗎?請說明明年可以辦可以辦"},{"start":7573.696,"end":7596.702,"text":"可是你在寫的時候是說預計次年也就是說是115年才要辦你到底明年辦或是不辦?我們現在這個部分我們是每年都會辦因為我們是打算未來四年會挑一些部落去建立一些模式去驗證未來的可行性所以你現在你明年到底是辦或是不辦?什麼時候辦?辦在哪裡?"},{"start":7598.021,"end":7625.068,"text":"我們現在還在挑部落所以我可能比較細節的資料要等整個規劃完之後再提供給委員比較細節的資料還要整理之後才提供比如說在哪一個部落或者是說在哪一個時間點辦可能我們還要再做進一步的比較詳細的評估阿對阿因為你前面就有寫說預計於次年開始辦理阿就很奇怪阿因為你如果是次年還辦理那你明年就編預算不是很奇怪嗎115年才辦的東西114年就編預算那就是浮編嘛那浮編應該就要減劣囉"},{"start":7626.601,"end":7635.513,"text":"對不對我跟你講今天還有這一幕還有討論時間你趕快把最後確定的說明版本提出來要不然我們就要簡略了以上好 還有沒有還有沒有委員高軍委員"},{"start":7644.481,"end":7667.781,"text":"的確剛剛劉委員所提的這個部分我真的覺得就是說非常有必要而且你這又是要委辦了要委辦給誰?原育會你們一直以來辦非常多的座談會然後辦非常多的活動但是你們自己都沒有列一個KPI或者是要做到什麼樣的範圍然後能夠解決什麼問題我覺得你們真的花錢如流水"},{"start":7672.385,"end":7693.87,"text":"雖然我們看到你們的預算其實不多但是真正在細看你們的預算的時候我們都很心痛啊好不容易有這些預算可是你們卻不用心來花用來真正的去執行剛剛林委員的那個說法我接受你們趕快整理一下資料讓我們清楚知道你們到底要做些什麼事情還沒有還沒有委員"},{"start":7714.669,"end":7727.854,"text":"對阿還有另外一個那個法制的我剛剛講完了嗎現在我們到南島了對不起我的第49案我撤案對不起在平埔主任辦理身份認同上面我把它撤案"},{"start":7730.889,"end":7732.51,"text":"南島民主論壇6年計劃說明欄預算數1976萬我一直以來看了很久這個計劃就是我剛剛說的中規處你們很辛苦"},{"start":7751.124,"end":7778.536,"text":"你們一直以來自己的業務都沒有本業務都沒有做好不管是剛剛講的資訊的不管是講的原住民的法規的部分還有法的部分你們的人數已經不多了然後你們都不把你們的人力你們的心力放在你們的本業務上面可是你們卻一直來替外交部跟文化部來做事情然後你們又編了這些錢"},{"start":7780.578,"end":7795.29,"text":"我是覺得啊中規處你還是回歸到你本業務人民會請你回歸到你的本業務尤其上次主委你說你到帛琉去宣布你要幫帛琉的人弄辭典"},{"start":7796.857,"end":7801.699,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、"},{"start":7825.47,"end":7831.201,"text":"要怎麼做接洽而不是你們的本業務。所以我在第53案裡面"},{"start":7833.854,"end":7856.543,"text":"我認為你們應該投入資源推動本國內我們自己原住民的族人的業務所以我認為這個預算一千九百七十六萬、九千萬都應該把它減劣掉。謝謝我相信大家對南島這個論壇都有很多的意見所以我先談到第53案。謝謝啊,林委員"},{"start":7863.325,"end":7885.425,"text":"通常在我們以前在議會審預算的時候大部分的時候這個議員們把關預算的邏輯都是公共建設當然我們就大家大部分都支持但是有這種活動性質很多的其實大家就會重演把關這我想是大部分坐過民意代表員共同的一個概念那你這個南島民族論壇的六年計畫基本上都是活動跟會議的性質很多"},{"start":7886.141,"end":7912.688,"text":"那加上剛剛其實前面高金委員講蠻清楚嘛就是這個如果它是一個國際性的互動的活動我是覺得應該交給外交部來處理因為它確實有助於我們鞏固邦誼所以這筆錢你如果編載外交部或原民會一起來辦這我會非常支持可是你如果獨立編載原民會下面而且它的預算額度非常高然後它又是以會議跟活動為主然後又可能跟出國參訪又非常類似那我是覺得這一筆預算大家要從嚴處理啦好不好"},{"start":7914.028,"end":7917.55,"text":"這請原住民委員會提出可信的說明好不好 以上謝謝"},{"start":7928.006,"end":7949.996,"text":"謝謝主席。唉,剛才聽到那個南島,我不知道該怎麼講。我本來中規就覺得你是一個頭,那我覺得在know-how的技術層面我蠻注重的啦。可是我是在後面的幾幕這邊有提案,可是我提案裡面的內容,你們有些人寫到這個什麼南島相關的這個議題,就是跟601計畫有關,所以還不是只有在中規。"},{"start":7951.513,"end":7951.533,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":7981.853,"end":8010.143,"text":"我們現在針對原民會要凍結跟檢列我心裡也很衝突好像剛才幾位委員這邊談到的南島真正的癥結就是在原住民本身我們在台灣的原住民本身很多事情沒有做所以剛才幾位委員這邊提到有一些其實是原民會應該要跟別的部會加接的平台其實沒有做好像族羽的部分主責是文化部"},{"start":8011.003,"end":8039.649,"text":"結果搞到後來好多的業務都變成你們在做然後他們其實有編的相關經費就削弱了原民會原本應該有的主體所以這樣啦好像本來在文化部這邊談的這個部落訓練到最後變成裝頭訓練然後你們應該在這個相關的議題上像人權博物館都應該要很強力的把整個原住民在人權跟所謂被不義的這件事情"},{"start":8040.469,"end":8040.489,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":8058.877,"end":8083.928,"text":"然後族語的這個部分呢那教育部你們跟教育部的這個族語師資你們到底這個平台建立的如何所以我的困難都是我一天到晚在幫你們在別的部會把關這些事情但是你們自己跟別人嫁接到底是做的怎麼樣所以這個南島會議你說我們現在要凍結要減劣那說實在我們也有這個正當性可是重點就是我們自己都沒有做好啊"},{"start":8085.185,"end":8113.799,"text":"在族語本身,剛才幾位委員講的議題,然後包括我們自己的發音系統,我學的發音系統就跟原民會的不一樣,但是都可以並存,但是這個並存你們現在做得如何?那難道跟我們真的是真正連結嗎?然後原住民本身在台灣社會裡面跟漢人的這個溝通程度現在做得夠嗎?我覺得有好多很矛盾,然後又很糾結,"},{"start":8115.731,"end":8115.751,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":8141.075,"end":8168.882,"text":"所以在原住民自己本身我們不知道我們的主體如何能夠透過語言、透過文化然後跟南島連結結果搞了半天我們都在做別的國家的內政所以主委你們這個部分可以怎麼做然後怎麼處理呢那假設今天被檢列了、凍結了或者是凍結的話你們有辦法請外交部或者是請文化部請教育部把他們該做的事情做好嗎"},{"start":8171.428,"end":8172.969,"text":"我們都是你們這邊的支持欸那個 吳委員還有吳委員好 那個主席我剛才忘了請求就是能不能夠讓原民會回應我剛才我那幾案啦齁但是我先說明一下南島的部分"},{"start":8195.994,"end":8218.231,"text":"其實在南島民族論壇計畫我並沒有去動預算那我先說明一下因為我常常去文化部、外交部就是去質詢關於我們原民會去出訪的一些活動或者是招待我們這些接待外賓"},{"start":8219.292,"end":8219.312,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":8242.157,"end":8269.982,"text":"因為我們很多的南島民族不是很多啦全部其實他們很多的習慣跟我們是幾乎一樣的例如他們也是無稷不租跟我們原住民族所有的族群都一樣很看重殺豬這件事可是各位知道嗎其實我們的南島朋友他們很多其實對華人是有戒心的"},{"start":8271.24,"end":8296.941,"text":"因為他們覺得華人太聰明太會做生意可是甚至是有時候我們在做這種國際交流的時候包括那個吃豬肉或者是有一些活動會顯露出我們的外交官會顯露出那種好像不敢而且他們感受得到鄙視所以往往這個對交流的活動不是很好的"},{"start":8297.952,"end":8315.37,"text":"所以我一直強調說原民會在這個部分我們本來就是代表台灣的主體我們是代表原住民族所以這個部分我是希望說不論是南向的這些交流或者是辦理這種南島民族論壇"},{"start":8316.491,"end":8316.511,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":8334.384,"end":8353.994,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":8363.059,"end":8387.274,"text":"舊部落增化邊因為我撤案但是你們要給我回應我改組決議可是我剛剛沒有聽到他們給我回應包括我們很多比林園鄉的平地行政區的地權還有這些增化邊適用地區的修正公法人的分區座談還有推動事辦還有原住民自治的事辦等等我還是希望有個說明回應謝謝主席"},{"start":8391.742,"end":8417.473,"text":"還沒有委員有要發言的。好,主席好,大家好。我們是,到現在為止應該我們都是,對對我知道,對對我們是在支持啦,但是因為我們看到的效果不彰啦,所以就是我們看到了就是在計畫招標多層招標的議會事數,"},{"start":8419.834,"end":8419.994,"text":"三、繼續審三、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":8448.664,"end":8450.086,"text":"二、繼續審第二幕大家已經討論很久了"},{"start":8471.158,"end":8495.535,"text":"那我還是要說明這個南島民族這個部分的交流事實上我因為在原民會擔任過處長也擔任過副組委過去真的都是由外交部主動找我們譬如說太平洋文化藝術節或是在什麼地方要到那個諾魯圖瓦魯"},{"start":8499.712,"end":8502.674,"text":"你們可不可以來參加帶著我們鄉親去參加這些活動"},{"start":8508.888,"end":8538.067,"text":"那事實上都是外交部在安排而且由外交部來出經費過去都是這樣結果這8年來現在又要變成這個開始要做這麼已經花了很多錢所以這個部分這個真的是演兵會你們自己的本業要做的非常的多像原住民主自治法連從演兵會送到行政院都沒有啊"},{"start":8540.359,"end":8564.509,"text":"連從延民會送到行政院都沒有所以本業變成就沒有時間去做了你們人力又少經費也少結果在這個部分就花了這麼多的經費所以因為我們第二幕討論很久了經費也不是很多請主席參考剛才幾位委員凍結的額度來去凍結"},{"start":8567.91,"end":8597.105,"text":"然後那個要要刪現在有那個南島文化節的部分到底要全刪還是說還是說這個預算之用的說明來去做調整預算不刪的話預算之用的說明是不是可以調整作為實際上對原住民族"},{"start":8598.089,"end":8625.966,"text":"有幫助的、有意義的、有實質效益的來去做調整這個預算資用說明。所以這個部分我的建議是這樣,以上。我還是補充一點,因為我常常到別的委員會去質詢。我舉明年要上路的五年一度的世界博覽會,明年在大阪。我有去質詢喔。"},{"start":8627.557,"end":8647.852,"text":"我們的國貿署編20億委託外貿協會要去做臺灣館。我質詢了之後,我要求說有沒有原住民的商品,有沒有原住民的演出,有沒有原住民的內容展覽哦?很硬哦!很硬哦!我上次質詢有問原民會說協調不國。"},{"start":8651.437,"end":8678.84,"text":"所以我真的不曉得說如果我們的經費放在別的地方那真的後果不堪設想第二我要講的是剛好今年9月也出一個大事但是大家都沒有注意到一樣在亞洲最大的原住民族博物館大阪世界民族博物館竟然他們的策展把我們原住民的族服16族去展覽叫少數民族"},{"start":8680.226,"end":8696.095,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分原民會真的你們要很強硬態度要有要經常馬上有事件就要出來做說明要不然大家都搞不清楚原民會到底有什麼重要性以上因為高金先舉手的"},{"start":8706.287,"end":8732.159,"text":"我覺得吳委員剛剛所講的是比較細節的問題大家看一下在這個民主論壇六年我再講清楚一下他們總共要做的三個事項第一個是強化國際文化合作既然你是強化國際文化合作明顯就跟外交部跟文化部的職責範圍我認為"},{"start":8735.72,"end":8750.908,"text":"文化的部分我們可以提供軟體我們的智慧給外交部、給文化部但是預算不應該編列在原民會這是我一直在強調的第二個,它的功能叫做建立參與國際性組織平台"},{"start":8754.429,"end":8776.324,"text":"這個非常重要但是它的功能跟現在有的太平洋島國論壇其實是重疊的這個部分也有編列預算然後第三個他要做的是建構台灣原住民族以及南島文化資產保存的資料庫大家都曉得"},{"start":8777.725,"end":8790.201,"text":"文化部國家文化記憶庫的業務也有在做這件事情這也是文化部在做的人民會的本業務尤其是中規處你們的業務人力"},{"start":8793.208,"end":8819.453,"text":"都已經很少錢了我認為原民會主委你們應該要跟外交部跟文化部說這個部分你們要出預算但是當我們做好這些南島的這些交流之後這些人怎麼再回到原住民的部落裡面來然後增加原住民部落的經濟產業的發展"},{"start":8821.973,"end":8835.402,"text":"這個原民會可以做第二期也就是115年度你們要跟外交部跟國防部要說跟文化部要說的你們之前已經做了6年這麼多的讓原民會打頭陣已經在用原民會的預算了"},{"start":8840.586,"end":8848.216,"text":"外交部那麼多預算、文化部那麼多預算那麼多的錢都在跌床架屋原民會還要在編嗎?我覺得沒有道理行政院不應該給原民會穿小鞋我們很重要"},{"start":8857.228,"end":8883.308,"text":"我們很重要你們就編預算啊讓我們提供原住民最優質的文化最優質的跟南島怎麼樣的連結的這些軟體而不是用你們的預算來所以我很堅持這筆預算我認為回歸到外交部跟文化部不應該在園民會的向下裡面那園民會如果要做這些事情你們可以提供軟體"},{"start":8885.066,"end":8901.692,"text":"提供我們的文化資源,而不是編列預算。你們更要爭取這些預算在我們的教育上,在我們自己本國的文化業務上面。不是不讓你們做,而是這些錢應該要讓行政院清楚知道,"},{"start":8902.812,"end":8921.102,"text":"這是外交部跟文化部的預算範圍,不是原民會的預算範圍。如果115年你們要編列這個預算,就必須要跟部落連結,要增加部落裡面的文化、觀光、產業的發展,我們才同意。以上,謝謝。好,我們陳英委員。"},{"start":8924.751,"end":8951.909,"text":"那個原民會本來就是一個小內閣然後原民會掌管的事務本來就是原住民相關的不管是婦女啦、社福啦、健康啦、外交啦其實如果按照這樣的邏輯的話那麼永遠原民會你們都只要提供軟體就好了你們的預算應該全部回歸到各個其他部會根本就不需要編列任何預算給原民會"},{"start":8953.642,"end":8980.243,"text":"但是事實上原民會就是要關心要掌管原住民所有的相關事務包括外交所以這個部分我支持原民會要保留這個外交相關的這個預算因為我個人也出國到這個南島各國家非常多次了那我舉一個實際的例子"},{"start":8981.383,"end":9008.883,"text":"在我們的...我去了紐西蘭那在當地的我們的這個代表處的人員呢多次想要邀約邀約這個毛利毛利的這個國會議員他們怎麼約都約不到但是我去一天就搞定這個事情為什麼?因為我們有共同的語言"},{"start":9009.684,"end":9009.704,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":9032.495,"end":9032.575,"text":"三、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":9059.181,"end":9080.215,"text":"各位委員都有發言,我們要不要請他說明一下?好不好?好,那主委說明一下。我簡單回應一下,這個南島民主論壇不是只有在辦這個會議而已。那我想,我們跟南太平壤的國家本來就是同文同種。像我去帛琉,我去馬紹爾,我們的話一樣。"},{"start":9086.019,"end":9107.07,"text":"這個外交部沒有辦法取代,有很多部落去,連外交部的人員去跟我去跟我帶我們裡面的原住民其實不一樣的。那我們不是只有去那邊做交房喔,還有博物館的交流,未來我們原住民的博物館可以跟他們的博物館的文物做交換的策展。還有"},{"start":9108.251,"end":9122.584,"text":"就是我們原住民的東西臺灣的原住民東西可以賣到那邊去向我們的編織向我們的各項的手工藝品一樣的他們那邊的手工藝品尤其馬紹爾這個編織也非常的好他們也可以拿來臺灣策展"},{"start":9124.466,"end":9149.133,"text":"更重要的是我們可以請當地的原住民到我們台灣來,進入到我們原住民的部落,我們也有帶來過部落裡面,來好好的大家對產業的發展,對整個接待怎麼樣來做更好的一個互動,我們都可以長期來互動。這個部分我們是在補強外交部,而且是站在"},{"start":9149.873,"end":9161.917,"text":"南島語系原住民來講大家都是一家人的立場我們是在做這樣的事情這個事情我想還要做的很多所以我想這個部分在這裡跟各位委員報告"},{"start":9178.888,"end":9179.87,"text":"阿我休息五分鐘嗎?"},{"start":9189.424,"end":9198.874,"text":"九百五十萬九百五十萬太高了,你憑什麼說太高?你有沒有其他想法?"},{"start":9209.946,"end":9235.425,"text":"八十九、三十四、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、四十五、"},{"start":9236.065,"end":9236.085,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":9263.697,"end":9263.897,"text":"一、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":9288.151,"end":9298.16,"text":"只有我們三個以後才能要如果他真的那麼重視太平洋跟南島那麼重視原住民我們的文化要跟南島鏈接"},{"start":9308.809,"end":9317.204,"text":"外交部、文化部就必須要編這個計算。我們不能夠讓其他的部會不重視我們原住民會。三、繼續審"},{"start":9321.437,"end":9321.457,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":9344.385,"end":9344.405,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":9375.086,"end":9375.106,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":9396.602,"end":9398.663,"text":"一、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":9415.029,"end":9416.85,"text":"一、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":9432.915,"end":9458.474,"text":"讓他們記憶,不要說整個都垃圾,因為我們從前先說,我說什麼,我是很挺原住民的,你三個原住民都要留在家裡,因為我之前說你整個垃圾,都沒做過嘛,你又來保留給你,跟你法國先說,你做什麼,你要做什麼,他要做什麼,要做什麼,要做什麼。"},{"start":9459.175,"end":9459.195,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":9478.615,"end":9478.795,"text":"一、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":9504.373,"end":9504.653,"text":"一、繼續審。二、繼續審。"},{"start":9530.875,"end":9531.635,"text":"二、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":9553.47,"end":9554.55,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":9579.495,"end":9579.515,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":9597.25,"end":9597.59,"text":"二、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":9615.95,"end":9616.751,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":9638.239,"end":9638.479,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":9653.348,"end":9653.468,"text":"一、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":9684.075,"end":9684.095,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":9690.728,"end":9715.986,"text":"好各位同仁那我現在齁跟各位報告協商結果就是第二幕呢我們整幕凍結300萬然後所有委員的案子並按處理然後專案報告時可動之然後對於黃建斌委員的23案23案齁我們"},{"start":9719.068,"end":9733.471,"text":"特別這個23案我們是要120萬全部凍結然後請原民會呢專案報告然後呢那個他的預算的"},{"start":9735.63,"end":9756.506,"text":"預算的科目跟實用跟資用的說明要全部報告完之後,我們才准予動之。好不好?那再來就是關於這個南島的這個部分,我們大家就決意保留啦,送協商啦,好不好?好,謝謝。"},{"start":9759.204,"end":9774.727,"text":"這是南島南島的部分那我再說跟大家報告一下43案測案45案改組決議然後49案測案52案測案54案改組決議然後55這個不用了吧這個已經要保留這個沒有這個是另外的"},{"start":9787.25,"end":9790.012,"text":"五十五萬改組決議我們是不是繼續進行第三幕?第三幕的67案我已經改為主決議了67案改組決議"},{"start":9818.018,"end":9834.244,"text":"七十一案凍結一百萬,必須提出專案報告。七十一月改書面報告七十二月是主決議"},{"start":9847.839,"end":9848.199,"text":"77案改為主決議"},{"start":9876.017,"end":9877.438,"text":"第三目本席有81案"},{"start":9897.017,"end":9921.45,"text":"就是有關部落旅遊異後復甦這個部分現在已經整個所謂的異後部落遊客都已經陸續回流了所以其中的補助金額理應降低但是既然已經編列了所以本席希望原民會能夠提出明確的補助評估的方式、補助的標準、評比的辦法"},{"start":9922.611,"end":9940.741,"text":"提出專案報告之後我們財事狀況是否動之這個部分凍結一千萬因為已經疫情已經等於復甦滿久了但是這邊還編列了3395萬9千元這個項目這邊相關有3091萬所以這個部分我們希望原民會這裡能夠提出專案報告謝謝"},{"start":9953.927,"end":9976.398,"text":"還有沒有?那個林委員謝謝主席我這邊在63案這邊有提出來整個這個經濟發展業務下面有關於這個永續共好地方創生的這個綠色產業發展的這個計畫我覺得在整個內容跟執行面我在計畫裡面看的不是我覺得內容不是很詳盡"},{"start":9977.538,"end":9978.018,"text":"綠色產業選擇標準及資金運用細節及產業鏈上下游整合"},{"start":10007.478,"end":10007.498,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":10020.536,"end":10020.556,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":10038.746,"end":10060.611,"text":"有時候計劃結束其實就結束了並沒有真的產生很大永續的效益那最主要是因為我們原鄉推動產業很多土地上的限制跟法規上的限制然後又導致一些來合作的模組又很類似"},{"start":10061.531,"end":10082.647,"text":"所以推動起來其實我認為沒有符合所謂的什麼以政策建構永續所以這個部分也因為人民會有來談了有一些我提供政策上的建議他們也願意來跨部會的去面對這一些懲惡所以我這個部分就撤案了謝謝好 謝謝好 那黃婕委員"},{"start":10091.977,"end":10106.833,"text":"好 謝謝那我也講一下我的案子因為其實在這個原住民族亮點產業的推動計畫裡面當然很感謝原民會對高雄的支持那裡面針對部落旅遊還有特色溫泉其實都跟高雄蠻相關的"},{"start":10107.734,"end":10107.754,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":10135.794,"end":10155.5,"text":"在這邊要幫我們茂林講話,謝謝。好,謝謝,那個徐委員。我針對第三幕的部分,這邊有一個提案74案,就是也是有關於原住民亮點產業推升四年計劃的分支計劃這個部分,是不是可以請原民會提出說明,我是提出要減列400萬。"},{"start":10162.546,"end":10188.281,"text":"那個徐委員的你趕快說明一下有關徐委員的那個部分那這個部分主要是企業狀況調查那每四年會辦一次上次是110年調查109年的所以他不是新興計畫其實已經做過一次了那明年度一樣就是會等於說再調查今年的兩萬多家原住民的那個企業狀態"},{"start":10191.698,"end":10219.08,"text":"這個部分是不是請委員不要簡略,我們可以提書面報告。好,謝謝。請鄭天才,鄭委員。好,這個經濟發展業務,這個是原住民很重要的一個第三幕。所以我是建議,我們很多委員都有寫了很多的建議,希望那個演民會能夠去加強的部分。"},{"start":10219.961,"end":10247.139,"text":"所以我是建議說這個第三幕我們就凍結100萬然後這個中央報告之後使得凍資那至於這裡面也有南島論壇相關的部分那就併前面的那個結議就是送協商以上好各位委員有沒有意見沒有沒有意見我們就照"},{"start":10248.497,"end":10248.517,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":10251.789,"end":10267.079,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附�"},{"start":10283.451,"end":10304.131,"text":"凍結10%。還有65案這個部分的話,針對就是我們的原住民經濟狀況的調查。而我們覺得就是收入顯示偏低啦,無法達到這個提升這個生活的水準。所以再去這個經濟弱勢的部分二話,所以我們是這一句話我們是同意修改。"},{"start":10304.551,"end":10314.656,"text":"但是還是一樣是凍結我們的10%是我們在原住民委員會就3個月內可以提出書面報告這樣以上"},{"start":10318.836,"end":10338.143,"text":"剛剛大家有協商,我再跟各位報告一下,就整目凍結100萬,然後所有委員的提案並按處理,然後專案報告後,使得凍資,大家有沒有意見?沒有"},{"start":10343.792,"end":10350.317,"text":"你們再說一下你們多少可以?"},{"start":10382.032,"end":10388.819,"text":"不是,你知道他會這樣講你就知道那個經濟產業發展那個是我們的救命錢"},{"start":10393.602,"end":10409.14,"text":"這是凍結又不是說把你剪裂而且你如果下個會期第三會期你來專案報告你一整年的預算我動你一千萬你一億我動你十分之一你是上半年就把一億花完嗎"},{"start":10410.851,"end":10425.548,"text":"所以所以所以我我們只是其實其實應該這樣講我們不是所預算我們希望行政單位真的要做出那個太要讓民眾讓我們大家認同嗎好不好"},{"start":10430.336,"end":10444.113,"text":"沒有,這樣子他們對報告都很隨便,而且我們真正重視的他也沒有掌握。主席,我是覺得尊重原住民委員的意見,我覺得也要...對啊。"},{"start":10451.161,"end":10466.556,"text":"我們不是說一定要動一千萬應該是要做動一百萬他們就不做不是會怕不怕啦不是不做是隨便做然後報告也隨便寫稍微一次你們自己說"},{"start":10468.882,"end":10469.022,"text":"三、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":10497.621,"end":10525.687,"text":"因為凍結大家吵來吵去也不知道什麼時候才解凍要拖很久對啊我們尊重原住民的委員啦好啦500啦好不好500啦原住民沒有講500我只聽到200鄭天才委員說200萬後來後來500啦你看500了啦你們行不行蛤"},{"start":10532.685,"end":10537.349,"text":"整目凍結500萬,所有委員提案並處理,作案報告後時可動之。關於南島業務部分保留送協商。第70案徹案第67案、72案、77案改為主決議。第4目"},{"start":10562.032,"end":10587.606,"text":"來,有沒有委員?第四目,來,高軍委員。好,謝謝各位。第四目是屬於這個土地規劃管理利用的部分。看一下我的第84案。那麼,84案講的就是我們原基法的第21條和第22條,涉及到原住民族土地權利樣態"},{"start":10589.087,"end":10589.107,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":10615.447,"end":10617.729,"text":"向我們的內政委員會專案報告"},{"start":10634.902,"end":10635.262,"text":"吳立法委員"},{"start":10651.014,"end":10674.104,"text":"這個部分是關於原住民傳統領域要來辦理土地調查跟化設計畫那因為這個部分也是深受許多族人的一個抱怨那所以這個部分我也接受因為我就改組決議了我的要求就是加速辦理"},{"start":10675.134,"end":10694.654,"text":"原住民族土地部落範圍土地的公告作業保障原住民族的土地權益所以我這個地方就是做這樣的一個要求我改組決議那也說明一下 謝謝還有委員嗎徐委員"},{"start":10697.594,"end":10719.803,"text":"本席在第4幕有三案首先第87案我們是針對原住民族土地管理土地規劃經費中的業務費對原住民而言土地還有傳統海域應該是賴以謀生的主要生產工具也是部落文化傳承的依據"},{"start":10720.763,"end":10741.408,"text":"在2022年,原民會提出《原住民族保留地管理利用條例》草案。行政院通過送入立法院,希望能將原保地規範提升為法律位階,禁止原保地設定抵押,解決介民登記問題。"},{"start":10742.948,"end":10759.719,"text":"立法院雖然曾經排審,因為屆期不連續,所以我們整個立法程序退回原點,無疾而終。現行這種屆民登記的現象持續存在,而且讓原保地大量流失。本席之前在答詢的時候也有特別質詢這個部分。"},{"start":10761.28,"end":10772.806,"text":"所以針對這一塊我們希望原住民族委員會就原住民族保留地借民登記這種情況提出具體改善方案所以凍結150萬專案報告後我們再來考慮動之"},{"start":10779.441,"end":10793.672,"text":"另外還有91案跟93案是針對資訊維護管理系統委外收取租金這個系統的更新維護委辦費用"},{"start":10796.294,"end":10822.627,"text":"我們覺得偏得很高所以這個我們凍結其中的5%凍結5%那另外93案的話是現行法規呢邀請原住民族共管山林資源卻沒有讓原住民族參與決策的權利所以我們希望原民會加強溝通例如我們新竹縣地政處的北泰亞原住民族特定區域計畫"},{"start":10823.587,"end":10828.715,"text":"其中只有土地使用管理機制,沒有包含利潤分配方式。"},{"start":10842.026,"end":10860.223,"text":"謝謝主席,我的是第89案,就是土地規劃管理利用業務我是希望原民會這邊能夠改善我們土當人員的一些辛苦就是說看看他們無論是從論件記酬還是從他們的加班費來補貼不然土當人員這麼少,然後他們的業務量這麼大"},{"start":10861.144,"end":10873.518,"text":"如果說不進行這方面的改善的話,我這邊先凍結百分之二十,如果有計劃的一些,我這邊已經有同意組決議了,不過還是要替我們提供人員來說明他們的辛苦,謝謝。"},{"start":10881.619,"end":10908.475,"text":"謝謝主席不好意思在這一幕的第99案我有一個就是原本這個業務費是要來辦理原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會土地小組的相關經費編了370萬零五千元那我原本也是把它全部凍結掉但是這個部分很重要我還是要要求舊部落的真話編"},{"start":10910.076,"end":10929.976,"text":"還有很多跟我們的比鄰園鄉的這些平地行政區全國很多造成族人很大的困擾跟權益的損失這種地區修正的我希望就是這個部分也可以來做一個說明那我就同意這案謝謝"},{"start":10932.846,"end":10943.573,"text":"政委員土地管理處的預算一直是不足,嚴格講起來是不足"},{"start":10945.269,"end":10970.131,"text":"所以要用在刀口上所以我是建議剛才吳委員也有提到總統府轉型正義委員會已經撤掉了沒有了所以要做更有效的對原住民族土地正義這方面的工作所以我是也有提案是說這個預算適用說明要做調整修正"},{"start":10970.911,"end":10985.7,"text":"所以我是建議說這個第四目的經費是不是能夠凍結這個兩百萬,然後要所有的案子都要裝報告,經同意之後才能動之。"},{"start":10991.707,"end":11006.513,"text":"好 謝謝我們覺得希望這個土壤處你說明一下啦就是我一直很介意的就是這個原住民的土地調查化設計畫你們編列總共是800萬嘛有我們的傳統領域從108年少族的傳統領域爭議以來到現在你們預計明年是要有25個部落會公告"},{"start":11019.818,"end":11040.484,"text":"現在原住民部落有700多個部落,你們怎麼樣處理這件事情?這個部分我是本來要把你們剪裂掉,但是想想原住民的土地真的是蠻重要的,就不給你們剪裂。但是我想聽一下你們到底想要怎麼做,因為我曾經已經講過了。第二個當然就是總統府的原轉會。"},{"start":11042.564,"end":11062.63,"text":"113年7月31日總統府的新聞稿中就明確表示這個原轉會它已經完成了階段性的任務本來你們在這裡有編370萬5千塊我們都知道在原轉會裡面它是無幾值的特別強調一下無幾值"},{"start":11063.91,"end":11082.967,"text":"事實上我們也知道在原轉會裡面其實有很多都是部落裡面的聲音發出來那的確也有發生了一些影響那既然現在賴總統說他要的任務已經完成了那你們認為370萬你們可以來做什麼?你們可以簡單說一下嗎?謝謝好說明一下"},{"start":11088.656,"end":11116.816,"text":"各位委員報告第一個是先強調土管處本來經費就很少剛剛政委員有特別提了裡面大概有六成左右都是用人費那很多都是補助像剛剛這個傳統領域的範圍調查這些他都要有時間去進行第二個是傳統領域這個部分剛剛委員都有特別關心不管吳委員或者是我們高進委員那事實上會裡面持續在做雖然在前幾年都沒有公告有他的一些因素存在但是"},{"start":11117.512,"end":11138.384,"text":"主委上任以後一直希望說這個部分能夠突破事實上我們現在很多程序已經在進行中那我們也規劃在明年初應該會有一些鄉或者部落會做公告當然委員講說我們有700多個部落要怎麼處理其實我們會積極的去趕班但裡面一個很重要的問題說不是原民會想公告我們就公告有一個問題是"},{"start":11139.768,"end":11166.697,"text":"外界怎麼看這個問題?我們公告的時候是不是有爭議?第二個,部落跟部落之間,族群跟族群之間還是會有一些問題。所以這個是需要透過時間來溝通協調。等到這個東西大家都OK的時候,或者說我們大家願意共享、共存,或者說大家共同去使用這一塊傳統領域的話,我想就會後面會比較快。我想初期可能會遇到一些困擾,但是我們還是會積極地來克服。另外有特別提到那個"},{"start":11168.753,"end":11195.545,"text":"二十二條那個機制事實上就原基法來講二十一條是有明定就是政委員所講的所立法通過那個不違定範圍那個諮商同意辦法那當然在會裡面的態度是認為說能夠統一一個法令來處理啦如果說我們每一個條文都另外去定一個我們的機制我們也怕有一些否效但是沒有關係這個部分事實上我們跟中規處也有在"},{"start":11195.945,"end":11225.073,"text":"在聯繫說針對22條有沒有可能在他的這個法令裡面有稍微可以做一些區隔我們一併來處理不要說這諮商同意出去的話他一個然後另外還有另外一個22條的諮商還有20幾條的諮商我想這個可能就不太好但是我們會整併來可能會有一些區隔他的強弱的問題22條是該怎麼另外那個共管辦法的這個這個發布共管辦法是不是要修正事實上我們也在啟動目前在收集相關資料就說"},{"start":11225.709,"end":11238.241,"text":"還要跟各部會開會,因為那是五個部會的共同發布的所以內容我們當然一開始政委員也很清楚這個在當時的協調的過程,事實上我們目前那個辦法裡面比較強調諮商那實際上的這個"},{"start":11242.103,"end":11247.566,"text":"綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—"},{"start":11261.978,"end":11281.638,"text":"土管處的經費非常的少因為他每一年難得今年有破億但是去年看到比較多是因為有兩個專案有兩個專案是有賠償的還有一個是增花邊保留地的那個專案的那個計畫所以才會有那麼多那平常都維持在1億以下希望各位能夠"},{"start":11282.78,"end":11284.404,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":11292.637,"end":11317.214,"text":"我們原住民族委員會之前總統有成立原住民族委員會我們事實上有做了很多的工作不管是調查研究還有我們一些相關的會議都在進行目前我們會保留這個主要這個都是一個用人的費用我們現在手邊還有大概將近10個案子可能6、7個、7、8個案子還在做結案這個結案大家委員會覺得說這個到底有什麼用其實這個對我們未來在政策的制定不管我們"},{"start":11317.854,"end":11343.136,"text":"管理條例或未來傳統領域的法律都會給我們一些很好的參舉。因為有一些這些比較明確的事實依據我們所調查出來的結果在未來在法律的論述上或跟各部會協調上我們可以強化這方面,讓未來我們所要制定的法律能夠順利通過。以上說明,請委員多多支持。"},{"start":11345.575,"end":11372.014,"text":"好 非常謝謝這個 處長你本來是處長現在已經是原民會的主委了對於土地的業務你很熟悉那我是我是這樣子啦我有84案、86案、94案包括這個原轉會的97案那麼這的確是非常重要的部分對於土地你剛剛解釋大概我們也接受了但是呢我也希望你這幾案當中"},{"start":11373.194,"end":11397.282,"text":"我們就不要凍結那麼多也不來刪除你的預算我的建議然後不知道在場各位的看法因為他只有一億他的預算只有一億我們凍結200萬好嗎然後呢讓每一案你都要來做一個專案報告然後至於97案的那個370萬那個你要特別告訴我們有哪一些東西還沒做完"},{"start":11397.922,"end":11415.868,"text":"那我現在提醒你一下,你看原轉會做了那麼多的事情,我再提醒,它是無幾值。而你們的族群委員花了這麼多錢,到底做了哪些事情,你們要好好的反省一下。你剛剛也都說原轉會做了很多事嘛,對不對?"},{"start":11417.128,"end":11431.103,"text":"那我們的族群委員一個月十幾萬相對來看他們的事權還有還做的事情這的確是值得要討論的地方以上我不知道在場的其他委員有沒有意見謝謝"},{"start":11433.347,"end":11455.836,"text":"如果再審委員都沒有意見,我們就這樣之後我們第四幕呢,就整幕凍結200然後所有委員的提案、併案處理然後專案報告後指的動之各位有沒有意見?好,那就這樣再來第99案測案第89案、92案、95案改組決議好,謝謝那我們再來第5幕"},{"start":11468.533,"end":11483.039,"text":"因為剛好我是前面這個第五幕這邊三個案都是我啦所以先啦所以關於就是101的案這一的這個114年的預算中針對公共建設的業務在"},{"start":11485.18,"end":11488.323,"text":"照顧經濟弱勢這樣的需求。這個部分的話我們有說我們要凍結10%也是在一個月內給我們報告但是我們的原住民委員會希望說他改為三個月我這個不文字的修正我們同意還有第二個的話102的話關於就是發展部這邊在"},{"start":11510.964,"end":11513.385,"text":"112年數位發展的報告指出關於如何落實原住民族群網路的部分避免數位落差這個部分我們也希望說要跟我們說明因為我們看到裡面的好像太模糊了還有關於103這個部分也是關於設備"},{"start":11537.659,"end":11548.162,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":11565.448,"end":11574.753,"text":"對我們原住民的照顧有達到這樣的效果。這個部分我們是維持凍結10%。謝謝。好,徐委員。好,本席在第5幕有三案。那第一個是107案。這是針對"},{"start":11591.792,"end":11605.942,"text":"預算是關於辦理經濟弱勢的原住民購住宅及修繕住宅的計畫。經費預算有1億1500萬元。它的績效指標是為了補助弱勢原住民"},{"start":11606.843,"end":11609.405,"text":"建構和修繕住宅,受益戶850戶。但是我們看到過去的整個執行的成果還有實際的作為都非常的不清楚。我們也不了解補助的基準到底是什麼。"},{"start":11622.296,"end":11625.718,"text":"所以我們在這裡凍結10%大概就是1324.8萬我們希望原住民委員會能夠專案提出這個補助基準的具體方案那我們再視情況來動之這是第107案那110案的部分"},{"start":11643.422,"end":11659.172,"text":"是關於原住民族部落特色道路改善計畫這個部分我們發現整個的投標意願還有工程執行延誤影響完工率到今年的10月底"},{"start":11660.293,"end":11680.269,"text":"我看到都還有三層未完工所以這個部分是不是可以請原民會來就這個改善廠商他的投標意願還有確保工程執行進度來提出具體的改善方案專案的來進行那本席是提出凍結600萬"},{"start":11682.831,"end":11697.543,"text":"我看到高金委員凍結百分之百,如果他百分之百,我這邊就不堅持了,就百分之百再來就是第122案,這個也是在原民會的各單位都一樣有關這個宣傳的部分,整個績效指標都沒有辦法實際的衡量整個宣傳的標準方式,還有"},{"start":11708.772,"end":11720.022,"text":"各管道的宣傳次數,所以我們希望能夠凍結120萬,那希望能夠專案的來提出報告說明之後,我們再試情況來凍結。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":11733.749,"end":11749.226,"text":"主席各位同仁大家好所以我在這一幕我是104案然後我是針對我們這個業務底下有關於這個主流化空間還有部落道路和"},{"start":11752.19,"end":11780.615,"text":"前面有這個有關於委託辦理原住民族部落建設業務協調規劃與輔導的這個相關的經費在細部計畫裡面我覺得有一些不清楚的地方另外還有這個移居部落建設計畫規劃及協調和相關作業的這個委辦費這邊那我希望業務單位能夠有更清楚的一個說明那我想兩個月似乎也對業務單位是可以的嘛"},{"start":11781.235,"end":11781.255,"text":"五、繼續審"},{"start":11801.382,"end":11813.409,"text":"提到原住民族住宅獎補助費一億一千九百七十九萬元原則上是凍結百分之二十"},{"start":11815.27,"end":11834.611,"text":"因為我多次的質詢、多年的質詢有時候跟我們業務單位雞同鴨講因為很多時候就是族人很期盼就是在這種建屋的部分希望能夠有更多的一個幫助因為以前曾經推動過國民住宅"},{"start":11835.231,"end":11835.371,"text":"三、繼續審。四、繼續審"},{"start":11859.941,"end":11861.942,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審"},{"start":11878.667,"end":11894.931,"text":"尤其是我們的族人還非常的關心在配合未來國土計劃法上路之後未來我們可能有更多的鑑定所以這個部分是族人非常關心的所以我希望兩個月內來說明我改凍結優惠費,謝謝這個更可以,那個主席這個覺得讓他說明一下你看這個覺得還可以凍到20%不不不等一下啦,他那邊還有那個"},{"start":11907.405,"end":11911.454,"text":"有委員還沒講啊?剛剛高金委員先的啦好不好?高金?"},{"start":11914.994,"end":11941.648,"text":"好,非常謝謝。大家看一下我的113案它在這個公共建設業務在這個政策研究就是原住民地區道路的政策研究發展總共編了6億9千多萬那麼我是認為就是說針對部落聯絡道路系統的研究它的考核還有它的里程標示還有安全設施我們希望人民會能夠提出具體的管理方案"},{"start":11942.308,"end":11942.328,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":11963.798,"end":11979.788,"text":"三百五十萬希望提出書面說明一百一十五案公共建設業務補助地方政府辦理原住民族住宅業務和多元居住協助相關業務總共一億三千多萬元經費建議補助地方政府辦理原住民族住宅業務和多元居住協助相關業務"},{"start":11994.397,"end":12018.794,"text":"居住協助相關業務經費編列預算350萬的這個部分這個是針對未來原住民的社宅的部分很重要所以我也希望凍結200萬然後你們也提出一個書面的說明接著下來就是117案在這個移居部落建設這個部分他們今年編的是4億7千多萬"},{"start":12020.575,"end":12044.271,"text":"長期以來我認為原住民部落裡面非常多的基礎建設是缺乏有系統的整合例如我們的排水系統沒有做整體性又沒有實質考慮到位於坡地部落的整體防災所需要的事項因為你們的預算已經不多了我不會給你們刪減但是我要凍結你們"},{"start":12050.174,"end":12070.004,"text":"4400萬這個部分你們也同意了也希望你們提出書面說明好不好以上是我的三個案子那其他委員案子就是我們再聽一下其他委員的意見謝謝好 那個徐委員本席在第五幕有提出三個案子分別是112案121案跟124案那在112案的部分"},{"start":12079.198,"end":12105.051,"text":"主要是因為這個部分就是跟去年相比的話增加的幅度大概達到25.26%那現在我想大家都知道我們都希望錢要花在刀口上所以為什麼這個部分要增加這麼多25%是不是所以這個部分我是提出要減劣減劣200萬然後第121案"},{"start":12113.513,"end":12141.021,"text":"一百二十一案目前也是也是較去年增加了百分之二十八點六三那我也提出簡列一百五十萬那一百二十四案的話呢是這是算是新增項目啦去年並沒有那因為這次的話增加了這個九百萬那所以我覺得應該也是要專節使用所以我提出簡列兩百萬"},{"start":12143.865,"end":12145.329,"text":"好,那個剛張委員先的啦。"},{"start":12151.889,"end":12177.826,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先我對這個第5幕有提出第105案 凍結100萬那主要是因為目前原民社宅數量不足那我也想要請教 請委員會解釋一下那個新北市這個社會住宅的部分有關於樹林的這些社會住宅其實規劃報告已經出爐可是中央沒有預算來去做補助是不是等一下可以說明一下這個"},{"start":12179.787,"end":12185.58,"text":"如何有市府總總要有預算可以來支應。那第二個就是我們現在說很多這個"},{"start":12186.892,"end":12210.784,"text":"原住民他都在排社會住宅那排社會住宅常常排到都是遙遙無期排到6年7年以上都沒有排到社會住宅是不是可以請原民會統計一下到底有多少這個原住民的好朋友在排社宅沒有排到那未來以及原住民的委員會要如何來協助他們那所以我這邊我是很支持原住民的預算所以我這邊只有凍結100萬謝謝以上"},{"start":12214.144,"end":12217.306,"text":"這個道路改善的計畫經費113年同一個預算科目只編了31萬4"},{"start":12230.562,"end":12248.543,"text":"這113年原民會單位預算案第71頁,這我們不是空口白話。那後來我們就含詢說為什麼113年只編31萬4,今年卻編了350萬,增加了318.6萬,等於增加11倍。原因是什麼?那後來沒有看到相關的說明,那當然就沒有辦法同意。"},{"start":12249.517,"end":12272.889,"text":"那這個東西今天如果不說清楚的話,我覺得很奇怪,有可能是撫編啦,這我們不能隨便講,因為你們後來又講說是搞錯了,去年也是花了350萬,那你為什麼預算說花編31.8萬就可以花了350萬,那是很奇怪的事情,你要做出明確的說明。所以本席認為,雖然你現在是逐幕逐幕來做討論,但我認為這一案必須要以個案的方式拉出來做獨立的處理。"},{"start":12273.809,"end":12281.642,"text":"看是要全部凍結還是怎麼樣希望原住民委員會今天的預算審查裡面可以提出像樣的說明再來是第123案一樣這種業務宣導經費的內容基本上"},{"start":12288.035,"end":12308.231,"text":"我們查了一下啦你只有在官方網站裡面公布申請須知跟核定案件的公布而已啊你等於沒有做任何額外的宣傳跟計畫的詳細內容都沒有著墨那你還要花這麼多的錢來做宣傳這真的很奇怪了所以本席的主張這要凍結100萬元這以上兩案希望原住民委員會趕快提出合理的說明以上"},{"start":12312.496,"end":12337.443,"text":"謝謝主席在第5個這邊我有三個提案也就是106、109跟118109跟118都是道路都是道路跟聯絡道路我這邊已經改成主決因為原民會這邊有解釋說大部分都是因為相公所這邊的配合度比較差所以他們的執行力會比較低所以可能要原民會這邊再督促我們地方政府來執行"},{"start":12338.983,"end":12352.267,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":12368.551,"end":12369.511,"text":"建屋的貸款,謝謝。"},{"start":12383.661,"end":12403.433,"text":"有個案凍結的就個案凍結沒有個案凍結的就前幕是不是就凍結一千萬還是兩千萬五千萬然後專案報告那就包含了錢包"},{"start":12407.106,"end":12407.126,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":12439.489,"end":12445.855,"text":"來,我們休息五分鐘,啊然後那個牛委員的那個,跟他說明一下,我們休息五分鐘。"},{"start":12829.878,"end":12830.118,"text":"我們開始開會那個是處長處長"},{"start":12858.177,"end":12861.278,"text":"處長,我說開始開會了,你還在那...來,那個...各位委員,剛剛我們協商齁,那個...劉徐廷委員,喔還有張柱林委員,他們的案子...哈?還有誰?喔還有麥委員齁"},{"start":12884.677,"end":12907.381,"text":"他們的案子明天中午前要提供書面說明給所有的委員。這第一個。第二個,我們整目凍結兩千萬所有委員的案子並案處理,然後專案報告,後時得動之。好不好?好,謝謝。那我們來繼續。第109案、第118案改組決議。"},{"start":12913.862,"end":12933.546,"text":"好,謝謝。那我們繼續下,來,第六目。老闆,第六目,第六目很簡單啊,結果。我跟你講,6、7、9,其實都蠻簡單的啊。來,第六目,我說明一下,可以嗎?教委。"},{"start":12946.124,"end":12967.373,"text":"報告召委,第6幕我可以說明一下嗎?對,我剛剛就請...謝謝,謝謝第6幕在125案是我提案的那這個部分是補助原住民地區的一些基本設施維持所需的費用我講白一點,就是在我第二屆的時候"},{"start":12968.513,"end":12987.049,"text":"所有的原住民鄉公所的鄉長都來當時的院長是蘇貞昌院長都來跑來我們辦公室陳情在我第二屆的時候也就是94年因為我們原住民的鄉總共有55個原鄉那地方政府"},{"start":12989.391,"end":12992.033,"text":"統籌分配款都不會依照土地面積、人口、稅收。"},{"start":13018.23,"end":13044.21,"text":"有一些有補助款的縣市例如秀林鄉就比較多錢所以其他的鄉就整個來我們辦公室我就一起到了蘇貞昌院長那邊去請他能夠瞭解我們原鄉地區的狀況因此有兩次調整第二次調整是在陳聰院長的時候所以因此在我們"},{"start":13046.332,"end":13052.92,"text":"原鄉地區的基本設施維持費到目前來講有6億4千萬這6億4千萬坦白說就是給我們的55個原鄉的鄉公所要作為它地方建設之用"},{"start":13063.451,"end":13090.408,"text":"所以我要求原民會這應該本來就是要給鄉公所的基本設施維持費所需要的應該要百分之百下放到地方政府原民會你們實在不應該在苛扣所謂的百分之八十留在你手上原民會有自己原民會的編列預算該給地方政府的基本設施維持費就應該給他們"},{"start":13092.509,"end":13105.719,"text":"所以我在這裡是希望要凍結你但是如果主委您答應我100%下放到地方政府我們就不凍結你了好不好謝謝您也可以說明一下對"},{"start":13113.743,"end":13139.651,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們大概按照我們的要點規定我們每年會控留大概百分之八的經費會在我們手上那主要的目的就是我們要因應可能鄉鎮市區會發生一些緊急災害或者是緊急避難的狀況這樣我們還有一筆錢可以去協助公所那也跟委員特別報告這個我們控留的錢我們也只能夠補助給公所我們並沒有辦法說移到別的地方用途所以這點部分跟委員特別做一個說明"},{"start":13141.138,"end":13166.133,"text":"各位說明齁這個百分之百還是都是給公所啦只是說我們已經撥出去百分之九十二了剩下百分之八就是用來有一些這個突發狀況的齁用來再補強其他的後面會有一些因為地方上有狀況要另外再補強的也一樣是給都是給公所這個不會自己留下來用"},{"start":13170.213,"end":13171.294,"text":"這位委員這個部分是沒有錯都會給鄉鎮市公所沒有錯但是"},{"start":13180.987,"end":13198.06,"text":"一開始你就要按照那個標準去給他們你講的這些理由齁那個其實那個災害準備金都有行政院的災害準備金都有是不是這個部分我們就還是凍結不要那麼多了凍結"},{"start":13201.98,"end":13224.967,"text":"我是覺得這樣啦 原民會你們剛剛說法實在是沒有辦法說服我啦那我凍結也可以啦 但是呢我是希望如果你可以同意我你是整個都要給地方政府我們也就連凍結就不要了你連那8%都不要留下來嘛你就按照地方的需求每一年就給他們就好了嘛為什麼你還要留呢"},{"start":13228.037,"end":13249.881,"text":"實際執行的時候有些公所他比如說給了他這個錢他還沒有做有的他來要可是他又沒有辦法做這是給地方政府的基本設施維持費你在一開始編列的時候你就應該要有一個辦法編列給他們嘛你就照以前就是這樣做因為這筆經費跟他報告這筆經費我當"},{"start":13256.86,"end":13267.945,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":13280.916,"end":13305.908,"text":"我們就凍結,看凍結多少,還是要凍結?人家高俊偉剛剛不要凍結了,你不要凍結?不是,還是要凍結啦,還是要凍結反正其他的也是要來一併狀況報告,好不好?高俊偉好,對不起,我補充說明一下,原民會這只是你的過水錢"},{"start":13307.762,"end":13336.431,"text":"你按照你剛剛所講的你本來就是要給地方政府的那你為什麼還要再留這些我的不明白所以你今天說不出來就不要浪費大家時間我給你凍結10%然後希望你能夠能夠來說明但是你要清楚知道這個錢不是你們原民會的錢這個是要給地方55個鄉鎮的基礎建設維持費的等於是鄉公所的私房錢好不好"},{"start":13340.163,"end":13340.183,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":13359.412,"end":13373.243,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經合訂給各地方鄉鎮事工所的經費已經到92%也就是說明年1月的時候最慢3月我們就要合撥下去92%的經費所以講是委員這邊好那我就凍結你們所講的8%你要留下來給你委員會什麼用的那就凍結8%8%好嗎好"},{"start":13386.309,"end":13387.19,"text":"結凍之前中間如果有什麼狀況,你們能不能因應?"},{"start":13404.965,"end":13425.057,"text":"你都已經96%都給原鄉了嘛就只剩下你剛剛說的8%嘛留在你原民會嘛所以我就說動你那個8%然後來做專案報告啊我覺得合理啊我本來是要動你20%啊可以嗎主委這樣你了解嗎還是旁邊誰要來幫你說"},{"start":13432.646,"end":13440.072,"text":"我覺得這筆錢本來就是要給地方的那你不應該你自己再去留什麼的我真的覺得這不應該啦我真的覺得不應該但"},{"start":13444.115,"end":13472.163,"text":"這個以我們行政上的經驗來講他雖然是現在說百分之九十二多少但有時候你報上來的可能也會有一點差所以我這樣建議好不好如果要給地方的錢我們不要給人家拖啦好不好我們就凍結百分之五然後專案報告之後此刻凍資因為你有時候會他多多少少那個會有出入好不好我的建議啦"},{"start":13473.755,"end":13502.76,"text":"我的建議我們不要凍結這個部分我們改凍結那個一般行政的部分我們改凍結一般行政的部分你凍結了這個變成他的理由啊所以我們要把全部給下去啊我們凍結一般行政的部分一般行政兩百萬就好啦一般行政三百萬不是啦"},{"start":13504.289,"end":13507.411,"text":"因為我們的第一幕稅出我們還沒有處理"},{"start":13522.344,"end":13546.977,"text":"你的意思是回去處理那個?對,到那邊的事。我看大家。因為我們稅數還沒有處理啊。如果這樣子,那我們第六幕就...就不處理。就處理了啦!不是啦,第六幕就照預算通過吧。是不是這個意思?"},{"start":13548.167,"end":13552.609,"text":"所以第6幕照原預算處編列然後第7幕可以沒問題就按照我先第7幕可以好來第7幕"},{"start":13596.86,"end":13601.462,"text":"主席,第7幕的部分,我們是原住民要跟人們溝通,我們改為主決議。"},{"start":13606.135,"end":13630.435,"text":"好 那第七幕就改組決議預算照列各位委員我們是不是請他們便當拿來因為剛剛有幾個委員我有去問了一下大家說趕快把他審完好不好好 我們發便當好 來 那我們第九幕徐委員第九幕預算30億"},{"start":13633.034,"end":13653.507,"text":"本席有11個提案本席做說明首先第141案這個部分因為我們其實都很關心原住民的教育所以整個原住民教育推展特別這邊協調與發展經費裡面"},{"start":13656.687,"end":13679.543,"text":"在《國家語言發展法》上路至今,各級學校都積極推動本土語言。原住民地區的學校如何配合法規來形成聘任原住民籍師資的需求?目前的情況是普遍學校都沒有達到法定要求三分之一的比例。"},{"start":13680.704,"end":13701.93,"text":"本席發現未能聘足的原因就是原住民籍的師生教師資格檢定考試通過的比率過低,具有合格教師證的師資不足,學校開缺也沒有辦法聘足足額的教師,還有參加甄選的教師素質稱之不齊,所以不敢貿然錄用。"},{"start":13703.49,"end":13730.136,"text":"學校未達法規也未制定法則所以造成聘任的比例未能達標所以針對這個原住民教育推展協調與發展經費裡面的業務費裡面呢我們凍結100萬希望原住民委員會就這個提升原民失資的數量能夠提出具體的改善方案那再來"},{"start":13731.789,"end":13749.277,"text":"就是我們原住民孩子我們普遍存在家庭支持系統不足所以需要課後輔導因為他們沒有人指導家庭收入可能不穩定所以我們發現教育部近日的統計指出"},{"start":13750.938,"end":13772.1,"text":"112學年,大專院校原住民學生出債學率只有56.3%,一般生都有91.6%,相對比較偏低。同時,我們發現原住民族大專院校休學人數有3254人,休學原因很多都因為工作。"},{"start":13772.921,"end":13796.235,"text":"我們說這麼多主要就是這些現象造成了惡性循環、收入不穩定等等家中沒有人可以輔導課業所以我們希望先凍結這個預算的5%希望原住民的就學狀況也能夠提出具體的改善的方案再來是第154案"},{"start":13803.761,"end":13825.991,"text":"154案的部分是針對講補助對各縣市政府的補助裡面其中鼓勵恢復原住民族傳統地名以及標示經費是1830萬那他的工作項目裡面有公共設施標示牌山川古蹟部落標示牌"},{"start":13827.731,"end":13851.907,"text":"標注為地方通行與傳統名稱這個工作項目跟原住民族16族鄉鎮市區族語標示示範計畫部分工作項目重疊所以我們簡列預算200萬那後面我們繼續要講的很多也都是好像都跌床駕屋首先再來我們第155案我們要說明"},{"start":13858.444,"end":13860.327,"text":"原住民族16族的鄉鎮市區族與"},{"start":13864.803,"end":13892.259,"text":"標示示範計畫,經費2000萬。它的績效指標是每年要補助4族,但是我們發現其中補助的族名並不明確,補助金額的基準也不明,所以我們針對這個來凍結預算200萬。我們希望專案的報告能夠把整個補助金額的標準、效益以及審查的標準能夠提出具體的改善計畫。"},{"start":13893.956,"end":13898.157,"text":"那接著是第156案這邊也是感覺是兩項績效指標哪兩項呢?辦理加強原住民學生課業及生活輔導預算有1200萬那原住民學生課後扶植預算有1540萬這兩項的工作項目內容呢整個"},{"start":13923.567,"end":13948.777,"text":"基效指標預期效益都相同。兩個計畫感覺只有名稱的差異,內容完全相同。所以我們不知道是因為便宜形式所以這個東抄西抄還是真的它就是整個是等於是相同的相同的兩個案只有名稱稍微做差異所以我們簡略"},{"start":13950.973,"end":13951.654,"text":"其中1200萬的預算。接下來是157案。157案是有關"},{"start":13965.563,"end":13987.523,"text":"有一千萬要來提升原住民的學生在各級教育的學習競爭力我們覺得這個非常好但是完全看不到具體的提升競爭力還有具體的效應那感覺呢這個消耗經費並沒有真正在加強提升我們原住民學生他的競爭力所以我們希望凍結400萬那"},{"start":13989.585,"end":13994.229,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查九、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查"},{"start":14012.95,"end":14021.408,"text":"要多元、平等、家庭教育等等每年補助30案那我們看到它的預期效應呢?"},{"start":14022.523,"end":14044.322,"text":"就是很籠統沒有看到實際的活動人數以及目標效益所以我們希望凍結這項預算的342萬我們希望原民會可以提出整個的經費補助活動辦理成效以及審查方式具體的專案報告之後我們再考慮來動之"},{"start":14048.347,"end":14063.28,"text":"第159案是針對原住民族教育協調與發展經費中的獎補助費、特種基金的補助,其中有包含原住民族"},{"start":14063.9,"end":14093.36,"text":"教育課程模組金費300萬發展各級原住民族重點學校課程模組200萬我們又發現兩者的工作項目、績效指標與其效益都相同籌備和課程內容也有部分相同所以我們凍結發展原住民教育課程模組預算50萬希望原民會能夠就課程設計工作項目與其效果"},{"start":14093.98,"end":14099.425,"text":"提出具體的改善方案專案報告之後我們再考慮來動之。接下來是170案本席再做個說明"},{"start":14114.039,"end":14135.546,"text":"一百七十案,這個是原住民族傳統智慧創作保護計劃,兩百五十四點五萬,其中的績效指標是要推動原住民族傳統智慧申請文化資產十五案,每年要推動十五案,但是我們看到從2017年到2023年,"},{"start":14140.587,"end":14161.038,"text":"總共推94案一年15案也要有105案都沒有達標到了去年2023年只推了9案2022年只推了4案所以你這邊一直列15案這樣子已經將近快10年都達不到15案所以我們凍結你這邊預算數200多萬我們凍結75案所以請原住民委員會"},{"start":14169.224,"end":14180.889,"text":"來就激勵各族申請文化資產能夠提出具體改善方案之後,我們再來專案報告之後再考慮動之。好,以上11案說明9案,謝謝。好,高居委員。"},{"start":14184.639,"end":14197.632,"text":"好,非常謝謝我們來到了原民會的重中之重就是原住民教育推展協調跟發展經費在這一個部分裡面總共有114年度要編24億7319萬元的確是少之又少但是我們一定要編測你們我們先來談我的145億"},{"start":14206.061,"end":14214.21,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":14224.861,"end":14225.041,"text":"三、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":14242.456,"end":14250.439,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":14266.304,"end":14290.339,"text":"您到我辦公室來說明了之後我也了解了所以在這邊裡面14億裡面我凍結你5000萬然後希望你能夠來做書面的來說明再來151頁裡面對於推動教會營造族與生活環境陳處長我相信大家看到這個以後大家都會覺得很奇怪"},{"start":14291.52,"end":14303.23,"text":"就會的確是推廣很多原住民的族語在你們沒有編列一些預算給他們的時候其實他們早就在做了 對不對所以這個預算我們可以看到從112年的5900萬到113年的1億400萬然後你們114年也要編列1.1億"},{"start":14316.18,"end":14335.31,"text":"在我們眼裡來看到我們族群語言推動組織還有原住民語言推廣人員的眼中跟心裡面來看我們相對的覺得我們很辛苦而且我們要做的事情又那麼多相對的教會裡面只要提一個計畫"},{"start":14337.331,"end":14362.96,"text":"馬上錢就下去了當然我不是說教會不好教會做了很多主語推廣我們非常的謝謝他但是在有限的資源下面我們是不是也要來思考一下我們的語言推動組織還有語言推廣人員他們相對的有被剝奪感我相信陳處長你應該了解我說的你要不要也簡單說明一下這個部分"},{"start":14363.9,"end":14386.41,"text":"其他兩個部分不用說明我們請這個處長來說明這個151案好不好謝謝你們未來希望怎麼做好還有沒有其他委員那如果等一下一起說明好OK好另外160案的部分呢這個辦理原住民學生課後輔導徐新英剛剛委員剛剛也有說了齁你們這個編了1540萬"},{"start":14391.033,"end":14409.45,"text":"當時我一直要求你們沒有配合老委會應該要有的最低薪資你們現在終於做了但是部落裡面相對的這些人在部落裡面的課和輔導對於我們原住民的孩子真的是很認真很努力所以我在說原住民教育推廣"},{"start":14410.891,"end":14419.037,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族綜合發展基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族綜合發展基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族綜合發展基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族綜合發展"},{"start":14438.717,"end":14456.041,"text":"好 那個徐委員主席本席在第9幕這邊有提出三案其中133案主要是在講媒體政策及業務宣導的相關的費用我們發覺其實預算中心也有特別提出來這幾年的預算書都"},{"start":14459.042,"end":14477.261,"text":"一直不斷地在增加,但是這個效果也沒有很好,尤其是我們可以看到就是我們預計我們在114年度預計辦的內容其實跟113年度的預算是相近的但是媒體政策跟業務宣導費用卻比113年度增加了35.9%"},{"start":14479.583,"end":14494.089,"text":"也較112年的決算數增加88.86%所以這個部分我是覺得這些年來說媒體政策跟醫護訓導費增加的相當多那這個部分的話我是提出要減列350萬然後另外在169案的部分"},{"start":14506.691,"end":14525.488,"text":"這個部分也是啊,就是114年度的有關原住民族文化維護與發展經費的尾半費今年度的增加的幅度也增加到48.37%那這個部分的話是不是,所以我提出是簡列150萬那這個部分是不是也請這個委員會要說明一下好,那個麥委員"},{"start":14534.655,"end":14540.617,"text":"謝謝主席我的提案這邊在128頁這邊針對就是原住民教育推展這邊有編列了30億但是我們看的那個課程"},{"start":14552.381,"end":14563.07,"text":"真的是設計上或對我們的體育上的實際的效益都沒有看到這樣子的效果還有它設計的內容希望就是已經是強化我們原住民的專班但是專班裡面就是沒有達到這樣子的效果還有就是各個方面去合作這個部分的話我們是有凍結就是"},{"start":14577.261,"end":14597.272,"text":"10%因為有7個案,這是大概講一些而已還有接下來就是我們提升那個原住民的知識的部分關於人工智慧的AI的部分也是一樣這個部分就是我們希望提高就是我們原住民的知識還有廣泛運動還有應用的普及但是這個部分我們也看到的就是太簡略"},{"start":14605.538,"end":14605.558,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":14625.76,"end":14638.414,"text":"三十五到六十之間這樣子的一個效率所以我們希望說我們正在預算但是我們的計劃也是要有說明所以我們在針對這一塊我們也是給凍結石拔"},{"start":14643.868,"end":14643.888,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":14665.093,"end":14691.238,"text":"九月三十到一百一十四年六月就要完工但是只有差七個月還有就是併用完剩下的九億就才多個預算所以還有存在這個樣子的質疑所以七個月可以完工嗎所以我們這個也要跟我們說明接下來就是三十"},{"start":14692.498,"end":14693.139,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":14709.521,"end":14710.062,"text":"一、繼續審。四、繼續審。五、繼續審。"},{"start":14727.285,"end":14746.356,"text":"所以在我們新竹市、雲林還有其他四個縣市用的語言推廣人員所以原則上這個也沒有達成目標也是說在還有七個縣市也沒有在落實來去做這件事情"},{"start":14748.581,"end":14748.821,"text":"一、繼續審。二、繼續審。三、繼續審。"},{"start":14769.718,"end":14769.738,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":14793.504,"end":14793.524,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":14817.199,"end":14833.47,"text":"我們去審查預算,要監督預算,所以這個部分希望我們原委會這邊要謹慎。以上,謝謝。黃婕委員主席,等一下,我感覺一個聲音,是叫人去了解看看嗎?是麥克風還是怎樣?有一個干擾的聲音。"},{"start":14854.12,"end":14870.831,"text":"我這邊有三案,其中兩案還是跟高雄有關,這個我在質詢的時候都有講,一個是原博館的進度,因為確實我們看到今年到8月之前的預算執行率只有5%,這個真的很低。"},{"start":14871.912,"end":14871.952,"text":"一、繼續審。四、繼續審"},{"start":14892.461,"end":14907.038,"text":"我們整個相關的預算其實都是非常重要的所以我希望說你們可以我的我動之的條件非常明確啦第一個就是說你們明年的籌備工作相關的時程要很明確的列出來"},{"start":14907.719,"end":14907.739,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":14925.307,"end":14935.517,"text":"另外一件事是原住民族族語推廣人員的部分因為我目前看到是你們原本預計是119人還有短缺33人高雄市我們原本應該要設置15人但你們目前只給了11人就都沒有補足這部分人員的差額請一定要告訴我們為什麼接下來要如何改善以上這兩點謝謝"},{"start":14954.254,"end":14979.706,"text":"剛剛那個吳委員先好 謝謝主席在這一幕有144、第147、第164是跟原住民族教育推展有關我有三個案子 凍結案那第一個部分我先談一下第144案"},{"start":14982.467,"end":15002.494,"text":"建構原住民族教育文化知識體系編列一億四千五百八十三萬元這個部分說實在已經上路幾年經費非常龐大我想這個部分應該我們教問處長很清楚"},{"start":15003.601,"end":15022.216,"text":"因為建構原住民知識體系非常重要因為這個是最基礎的data但是他不能夠不應該就是獨立的來做這件事因為原住民族文化知識語言的搶救是跟時間賽跑"},{"start":15023.797,"end":15046.113,"text":"那就教育的理論上來講知識體系也不應該單獨建構它必須要同時跟我們的教材的完成以及你要有一個學校來撐住知識系統這件事情所以我其實我常年也覺得這樣的做法其實美中不足"},{"start":15046.733,"end":15069.119,"text":"就是缺了一個教材還有學校的建構所以我在這個地方是凍結30%我希望這個部分要來重新檢討怎麼樣來把這件事能夠做得更好在教材還有這個原住民族學校的部分希望教文處等一下做一個說明"},{"start":15071.32,"end":15093.13,"text":"第147案是關於辦理都市原住民族的發展計畫。那這個部分是有編列2248萬。那在這邊就是看不到提升地位區原住民族人族語學習的一個相關的內容。我還是要談"},{"start":15094.39,"end":15119.035,"text":"雖然我們常常聽已經超過50%的原住民族人來到了都會地區但是還有一個數據要看喔如果以幼兒園到大學的學生來看的時候是將近70%的原住民族人在都會區就讀所以這個比例是非常的驚人那我們也常常看到他們的辛苦"},{"start":15119.835,"end":15134.62,"text":"苦於沒有學習的途徑、方法這些年輕人其實也都很樂意學習特別是越來越多在我們的失陪機構也在搭配要去做一個族裔檢測要過關那其實這些孩子很可憐"},{"start":15139.241,"end":15157.197,"text":"他們是公費生要讀比一般公費生修更多的課程但是呢他們好不容易要畢業其實很多人畢不了業就因為語言的部分檢測沒有辦法過關然後就算畢了業有時候地方也不開缺"},{"start":15157.918,"end":15159.119,"text":"第164案提到國家語言整體發展方案"},{"start":15178.161,"end":15202.273,"text":"捐助、財團、法人、原住民、文化、事業、基金會這個部分我是覺得我們也常常聽到大家質詢我也質詢很多次我覺得原住民族電視台我不知道要怎麼幫助他們了我真的不知道怎麼幫助第一個就是那個重播率那麼高那個製作費那麼可憐"},{"start":15206.243,"end":15206.263,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":15225.45,"end":15225.47,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":15244.56,"end":15244.78,"text":"一、繼續審。四、繼續審。"},{"start":15269.983,"end":15296.678,"text":"推動幾十年來其實不是所有的教派主與教會的補助不分教派但是真正有在做這件事的大家都知道就是長老教會但是我們補助不是這個意思你看他做了幾十年將近一百年的志工致力於如果今天沒有他們我們現在不要講什麼葉克某沒了啦連葉克某都不必裝了啦"},{"start":15297.759,"end":15322.617,"text":"所以我的意思是說好不容易現在大家看中不是看中補助教會你去注意看各個教派安息日會、天主教會現在所有的教派因為有這個補助都在開始做讀語推廣而且在部落裡面留在教會是最好的讀語學習中心所以我覺得這個部分教文處應該要好好的去思考以上"},{"start":15323.612,"end":15336.281,"text":"好,剛剛王委員主席,謝謝。在這裡,有你法院委員也說到稿費的時候,我認為你要慎慎去評估,因為長久以來,你如果看阿琛所拿來,都差不多這裡的長路稿費,去加這裡的金額,因為我都覺得稿費也好,廟費也好,我們應該是沒有分什麼族群也沒有分什麼,所以不要排斥說"},{"start":15353.729,"end":15356.332,"text":"不要讓我認為一個議員要保存下去是不簡單的,可以我們倒三天,我們也要盡量處理。還有在我提案的150案裡面,那個議員推管的"},{"start":15373.446,"end":15373.466,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":15392.157,"end":15397.302,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會主管作業基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審"},{"start":15411.471,"end":15437.192,"text":"先為主席啊,案子很多啦,我挑幾個重點來講。第一個,146案,剛剛高清委員有講過,這針對運動選手的部分,當然我們都非常支持。但是提醒一下啦,就是說,因為在運動選手的補助部分,就是教育部本來就有相關的經費,未來體育部應該也會有相關的經費。那這一部分,這個到底會不會有重複編列?如果有重複,其實破案獎議原住民,我也是不反對。但至少這個話要把它講清楚。它會不會重複編列?它這個請領規則如果重複的時候的配套措施是什麼?"},{"start":15440.554,"end":15463.849,"text":"請在解凍的時候提報告的時候請把它列入移民說明項目這就是我們支持高清委員的凍結一千萬的這個說法再來152案152案你寫說原住民族教育協調與發展經費裡面的業務費變成一千萬元你寫說要制定獎勵辦法並公開表揚變成一千萬元現在問題是這樣子你的語言發展獎勵辦法其實在111年就已經訂定發布了"},{"start":15468.237,"end":15468.257,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":15490.333,"end":15515.02,"text":"這個詳細的報告提供給我的話那我就不堅持好不好再來這個最比較嚴重的這要我好好講清楚153案原住民族教育協調與發展經費裡面寫說擴大辦理族語教育文化推廣的業務媒體政策及業務宣導費這就是宣傳經費啦好宣傳經費不要緊這個第一個他不特定業務宣導其實很難講得清楚也沒有說明具體用途然後第二個是"},{"start":15516.581,"end":15532.999,"text":"貴會來本席辦公室說明的時候竟然直接講說這一項預算往年通常都作為預算統三的標的編給大家刪的我們今天為了會議的效率部分用統一處理的方式來處理但是你都這樣子都不演了好像有點太誇張"},{"start":15534.793,"end":15556.634,"text":"那我們這次就成全你啦所以這一題要減列350萬啦我們不要變統三啦這種壞習慣大家不要有啦我覺得這一條本席是很堅持那有幾條跟南島有關的應該待會原住民委員剛剛協商有講嘛因為跟南島整個計畫相關併案說送協商所以我們就不再多說那還有一個比較重要的是165萬"},{"start":15558.775,"end":15581.304,"text":"這個教育文化組捐助文化事業基金會就是上次我們在預算答詢的時候我有講你捐給文化事業基金會沒有關係這我不挑剔這件事情但問題是你的寫是寫說給他業務費他業務費增加可是實際上業務費卻是減劣結果增加的全部都是人事費你們想一下這個東西的名目要怎麼做修正我講你增加人事費把理由序名清楚大家討論通過"},{"start":15582.725,"end":15582.745,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":15607.564,"end":15628.679,"text":"新的語言發展基金會的永久興建會址,那裡我們預算質詢的時候也有講到,我們關心這個進度。這個一樣,進度希望明年可以有個詳細的報告進來,要不然就要凍結了,我們本來是說凍結20%,但是你今天講說,你今天綁在這一層預算,但明天你可以送交的話,這個我們就不堅持,但是一定要有詳細的進度,這跟我們桃園的建設是有關係的。"},{"start":15630.674,"end":15647.547,"text":"好了,其他再講下去就沒完沒了了好不好,我們就這幾個重點,希望這個主席協助處理,以上謝謝。好,謝謝。林委員。主席還有那個各位同仁大家好,我不知道是不是比較先知,所以我就直接那個教文的這個預算先凍結。"},{"start":15650.149,"end":15664.554,"text":"為什麼會這樣子呢?是因為我在教文委員會所以我也很希望那個原住民我在教文一直幫原住民這邊爭取很多的這個機會但是你們的連結我常常都連結不到所以剛才其實很多委員談到主語的問題"},{"start":15665.374,"end":15666.155,"text":"原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":15682.927,"end":15682.947,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":15698.178,"end":15722.307,"text":"那剛才其實也有人講到這個運動選手的這個問題齁喔主委上次在一個參會有聽到你說那個賴總統現在給我們兩億元的那個原住民族運動發展的經費後來我才發現原來是教育部不要丟給你們的結果這個政策牛肉是執政黨在開結果那個事情是原民會在做啊我覺得這樣子的那個狀況不太好啊那"},{"start":15722.947,"end":15723.888,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":15746.787,"end":15774.163,"text":"整個的過程當中你怎麼去處理在地的問題你怎麼去連結原鄉你怎麼去運用都會、原住民這個部分我在計劃裡面都沒有看到所以委員會真的拜託我是知道大概我們這個委員會也有統三的一個過往所以我這邊提出來的是你們大部分的業務都在我委員會裡面的都是重中之重好不好麻煩你們所以"},{"start":15775.334,"end":15802.603,"text":"來跟我說明,然後讓我知道怎麼樣來協助原住民,讓我們有最好的發揮,可以嗎?謝謝。好。好,鄒委員。好,這個討論很久了。有關這個教育的部分,延命會真的是跟教育部要加油。這8年來,我們唯一沿漢的落差"},{"start":15803.82,"end":15827.927,"text":"加大的就是教育其他的失業率我們有縮減其他的有縮減就是唯一加大的就是教育的部分所以原民會教育跟教育部這邊要加油所以我的建議是這樣因為剛才議員的部分大家有很多的意見"},{"start":15829.224,"end":15842.949,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四、繼續審查十四"},{"start":15859.076,"end":15865.94,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族委員會主管作業基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":15884.709,"end":15909.001,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。"},{"start":15913.305,"end":15913.445,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":15942.365,"end":15965.614,"text":"我部分同意就是剛剛曾委員所講的部分其實在我們的教育推展協調跟發展經濟他當然也包括語言啦對吧處長那這個但是在語言的部分總共是14億沒有錯吧好那14億那麼14億裡面我剛剛有提到就是幾個書面報告你還是要提供給我好然後呢148案"},{"start":15968.655,"end":15988.969,"text":"剛剛那個政委員是說他希望都是要來專案就是語言的部分那我也同意但是呢對於這個因為剛剛那個牛委員有講到原基會的部分我在這邊要提除了是人事人事費的檢討我希望教文處來檢討一下因為基層的記者"},{"start":15991.411,"end":15991.591,"text":"一、繼續審。二、繼續審。三、繼續審。二、繼續審。"},{"start":16017.859,"end":16043.73,"text":"他們的工作超出很多但是他們的薪資卻那麼少這個是等同於霸凌的另外一種所以對於原金會裡面的薪資你們的確要好好的來討論一下所以這個部分那個剛剛牛委員說要提出來另案處理我同意另外還有一個就是最近我們一直來看到的其實呢公共的這個原住民電視台"},{"start":16045.171,"end":16064.323,"text":"一開始要脫離公共電視或者要設計我就是推動人員之一啦大家都清楚知道我們都希望我們的原民台是有別於主流媒體來報導原住民的相關議題可是我相信大家來看一下"},{"start":16065.163,"end":16087.905,"text":"原住民的新聞報導有站在原住民的立場、原住民的眼睛來報導我們原住民的事務嗎?包括新聞嗎?這個的確是要檢討的這個不是說我們的政治的手插入到媒體而當時我們的原基台、原民台包括現在廣播也出來了如果你們的"},{"start":16088.866,"end":16097.996,"text":"播報新聞討論的議題跟主流媒體一樣是不動不揚我請問一下我們今天成立原住民電視台跟廣播幹什麼用?"},{"start":16099.437,"end":16125.918,"text":"我覺得我們的原民台的確有很多的節目是得獎這值得鼓勵但是更重要的我們的廣播我們的這個電視它應該要有別於主流媒體要有原住民為主體性來探討原住民的法案來探討我們的政府不管是哪一個政黨對於原住民政策的討論不是嗎所以處長"},{"start":16127.159,"end":16129.5,"text":"你們是不是覺得應該檢討這個部分?是不是?待會你們一併來回答另外對於原文會的心智結構剛剛講了然後自播的方式我們的人很多耶我們的原民台 處長"},{"start":16144.289,"end":16166.604,"text":"原民董事長在這裡我相信我們的人很多但是我們的委制比例高於自治這個是不是也要檢討一下我們長年很多的立法委員在這邊還有我們的立法院的預算中心一直談到的就是能夠持續強化節目的自治比例"},{"start":16167.404,"end":16193.667,"text":"然後以培育傳播人才才能夠發揮原文會應該要負的功能跟責任嘛但是現在我們的原民台或者是我們的原民會你們從來都沒有好好的檢討討論這個問題這一次我非常的堅持原文會你們一定要好好的討論我們也希望教文處"},{"start":16195.253,"end":16195.273,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":16216.368,"end":16216.388,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":16236.764,"end":16255.716,"text":"財產法人原住民族文化事業基金會4億4千多億的這個預算我在這邊建議要凍結2億4千3百萬然後來做專案的報告包括剛剛牛委員所說的這個薪資的結構包括這一次採購的爭議包括"},{"start":16262.128,"end":16276.245,"text":"預算中心所說的你們的自治比例要一定的提出專案的報告我們才讓您解凍以上謝謝好那個說明一下"},{"start":16278.595,"end":16300.525,"text":"好,謝謝各位委員的指教。我想就試個剛才委員比較關心、比較大的議題來跟委員做說明。第一個是體育人才的培育。那剛才委員有特別指教說,這個計畫其實不是教育部部座來丟給委員會來做。這是今年的巴黎奧運結束之後,總統跟院長有感以這次原住民選手在巴黎奧運的成績非常亮眼。"},{"start":16301.005,"end":16325.262,"text":"所以特別又增加2億元的經費來給原民會希望原民會對原住民選手在比較有潛力的項目未來可以更重點的來支持所以我們就選定了7個重點項目明年開始會就這些傑出的原住民選手我們來給他更多的協助我舉個例子過去原住民選手這些頂岩球可能在移地訓練的費用還是他們出國比賽的費用"},{"start":16325.902,"end":16325.922,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":16352.998,"end":16376.009,"text":"第二是原博館的進度也跟各位做報告原博館在今年的3月20日已經奉行政院正式通過要來籌組我們現在的進度最近進度是在9月30日我們的籌備處已經正式成立了我們目前正在做籌備處的辦公室的裝修包括人員的招募因為我們有一個很重要的關卡在我們的籌備處的組織編制表必須送"},{"start":16378.59,"end":16380.372,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六"},{"start":16396.61,"end":16398.591,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":16412.981,"end":16416.724,"text":"原住民族委員會主管作業基金—原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":16435.236,"end":16453.282,"text":"委員清楚我們現在已經責定在我們新來的基地開始會來就原住民學校的示範做一個示範計畫那這個計畫雖然我們這次預算沒有編列可是我們會在知識體系的相關經驗來處理那希望我們的原住民的示範計畫、原住民學校示範計畫明年也開始來推動跟我們來做報告"},{"start":16454.042,"end":16469.165,"text":"最後一個是原文會的幾個大委員關係的資質力、薪資結構、採購增益跟永久會址的進度部分。我們會後來跟原文會做確實的檢討,把我們最新的檢討報告提送給各位。以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":16475.097,"end":16502.653,"text":"我這邊再提幾個問題有關基金會的搬遷問題針對未來同仁每月交通費的補貼搬遷費還有每月的租金補貼目前跟工會的討論情形是什麼然後具體的金額補貼的期間補貼的資格跟認定方式那如果有些同仁跟演武會的合作或者是廣播電台是屬於承攬企業性質這些同仁又該怎麼兼顧可以一併回答嗎?謝謝"},{"start":16504.022,"end":16524.902,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝盧委員有關原住民會永久會址搬進之後我們同仁群的問題我們也跟基金會開了幾次的會議那他們基金會目前還在跟我們的同仁們在做最後的協商那反而他們訂的結果會報到原住民會來目前他們沒有報上來那我們也持續在跟基金會之友保持聯繫跟以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":16533.513,"end":16559.619,"text":"那個不好意思因為因為剛好那個講到那個薪資結構的部分我是寫主決議啦那因為在這個原文會跟原語會的部分即便就是接下來要調整但是那個整個歷年來累積的%數其實還是不足的這個部分有特別要求你們就是兩年內要就是調整要補齊這個部分待會要一併做回應"},{"start":16568.471,"end":16580.254,"text":"剛剛有談到就是說原基會的部分我們是另案處理現在就是只是在這個談到語言跟教育推展上面我們有主席來來來才是說明一下那個國務院吼"},{"start":16594.855,"end":16611.546,"text":"第九目,我們就整目凍結3000萬,然後所有委員的案子並案處理,然後專案報告後時可動之。然後那個一百幾案?他那153案是不是?"},{"start":16617.199,"end":16619.162,"text":"一百四十、一百六十案改組決議"},{"start":16652.102,"end":16666.153,"text":"153吧?是不是?對不對?好那個"},{"start":16675.183,"end":16678.308,"text":"一百五十三案簡列兩百"},{"start":16679.414,"end":16704.176,"text":"好 那我們繼續下一幕沒有 第9幕你154案簡列200156案簡列1200完全沒回應所以表示認同簡列什麼東西你什麼東西什麼東西啊哪一個啦我意思是說你350 你簡列350不是啦我的意思是說剛剛不是宣告過了你宣告什麼"},{"start":16705.526,"end":16705.686,"text":"三、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":16738.362,"end":16752.318,"text":"主席,還有剛剛我133案針對媒體政策跟宣導費用,簡列350萬,好像也都沒有回應。你們要回應啊。好,謝謝。好,根據委員報告,有關委員關心的"},{"start":16753.419,"end":16758.385,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族委員會主管作業基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":16770.74,"end":16792.058,"text":"在他們的標示上來做主委的標示。那我也比較關心,第二個是比較示範性的計畫,不是針對部落的部分。我們希望是透過部落整體性的,包括他們的家屋,包括每一戶的門牌,我們都希望他們能夠做一個示範的計畫,讓整個部落是充滿著主委的標示。所以這兩個是不同的計畫的概念跟委員補充。"},{"start":16795.15,"end":16802.496,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查九、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、"},{"start":16819.668,"end":16824.154,"text":"不是,現在是什麼人要什麼人回應,他現在說他沒有回應,我都亂了,誰會做啊?"},{"start":16830.502,"end":16834.024,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查"},{"start":16858.059,"end":16860.146,"text":"所以我維持嘛我維持簡略200就這樣"},{"start":16862.683,"end":16887.196,"text":"接著往下,可以啊。好,156案的部分是有關於那個原住民學生課後扶植的部分。這也是兩個計畫,一個是偏鄉地區的孩子的課後扶植,一個是我們都會地區的原住民孩子的課後扶植。因為它是不同的地區,所以不同的KPI,所以我們分裂在兩個計畫。其實這是做同樣的事情,可是它的對象不一樣。一個是在原鄉地區的計畫,一個是在都會地區的計畫。那包括這個部分都是我們"},{"start":16897.932,"end":16901.274,"text":"133案有關媒體政策跟這個宣導費用對,區委員關心的是那個沒宣費的部分"},{"start":16912.099,"end":16940.124,"text":"徐維文貴先生每一宣的部分。那這個部分其實我們每年在做不管是原住民學生的權益的宣導還是我們的文化的宣導還是說語言各項政策還有那個學生考試這部分的使用的經費可是今年增加的幅度非常高喔所以說我不曉得為什麼今年要增加這麼多既然是往年都有在做嘛那一直也都在做那為什麼今年會增加這麼多的經費"},{"start":16942.403,"end":16943.984,"text":"原住民族委員會主管作業基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":16959.844,"end":16974.324,"text":"委員這個厚厚是不是我們可以一個完整的報告呢?或是不是讓我們照列的預算?我是覺得這個部分的這個教育業務宣導這個我們都認同是必要的但是因為今年的幅度實在是增加蠻多的所以這個部分可能要請你們說明"},{"start":16976.727,"end":16996.42,"text":"會不會是會為我們提供相繼的整體的數據給委員做報告?我是提出要簡列350萬喔。是不是委員可以支持我們讓我們後面可以做完整的報告?我是覺得先提出說明之後我們再來看,如果真的是有需要當然我們一定支持,但是如果不是的話我們覺得還是要尊嚴使用。謝謝委員,謝謝。"},{"start":17001.476,"end":17006.288,"text":"我們休息五分鐘,你去跟學習委員解釋清楚"},{"start":17984.465,"end":17985.545,"text":"本席在154案有檢列200萬156案有提案檢列1200萬"},{"start":18002.557,"end":18021.135,"text":"那154案呢我給行政單位兩次機會都沒有回答那後來再回答呢也是講得不清不楚那後來我們了解就是說可能部分工作項目重疊或是也做不到那麼多所以我們維持簡列200萬"},{"start":18024.157,"end":18049.388,"text":"但是對於學生的課後輔導的部分本席給行政單位三次機會完全也沒有回應表示也認同認同節約一千兩百萬但是後來高金委員有特別來說明行政單位的說明也是非常的籠統但經過高金委員說明之後本席瞭解而且本來"},{"start":18050.834,"end":18076.136,"text":"我本人對於學生的教育我都是非常的支持也重視但是我們看到好像有重複申請計劃之餘所以我們才簡列其中一項的1200萬但是高金委員特別講了一個是針對都市都會區一個是針對原鄉所以我們對於都會區的原住民還有"},{"start":18077.657,"end":18092.423,"text":"原住民學生還有原鄉的原住民學生我們也是非常重視他們的課後輔導所以這個部分本席也同意不要簡列我們把這兩案加起來是2740萬我們改成凍結40%我們希望專案報告之後再看情況來解凍"},{"start":18105.789,"end":18124.043,"text":"我們希望行政單位能夠加把勁當然本席也體諒了你們那麼久這個時間會議那麼長行政單位都沒有吃午餐所以可能也是血糖降低都沒聽清楚我們的問題所以最後我這個簡略我就不簡略凍結40%2740萬的40%那我們希望行政單位能夠好好的來做好謝謝"},{"start":18137.298,"end":18165.009,"text":"好這樣子齁那我跟各位委員報告一下齁我們剛剛的這邊齁包括剛剛的高軍委員的那個125萬就是第6幕的那個齁我們改併入第一幕一般行政齁就是併案凍結2000萬元然後要專案報告之後時可通知這剛剛說的齁啊我做一個宣告就剛剛說的好那再來"},{"start":18166.482,"end":18175.528,"text":"第133案就是徐宇峥委員的案跟153案就是媒體政策及業務宣導費這個我們併案簡列300"},{"start":18182.298,"end":18188.482,"text":"好那剛剛那個徐欣盈委員的就是第154跟第156案合併然後兩案合併然後凍結40%"},{"start":18199.161,"end":18215.077,"text":"一百五十四案就減二百萬,我講的應該很清楚,奇怪。對啊,高進委員也有聽到也認同嘛。那我們是一百五十六案裡面我們有提到有兩……"},{"start":18216.618,"end":18231.831,"text":"兩案我們認為是重複申請那這兩案是1200萬跟1540萬所以我把這兩案有重複申請的本來是簡列其中一案現在兩案加起來我們就凍結兩案的40%"},{"start":18235.604,"end":18243.046,"text":"兩千七百四十萬的40%希望專案報告之後我們再來視情況解凍徐委員"},{"start":18255.788,"end":18275.895,"text":"那個徐信英委員徐信我們請教一下因為我們現在上面那個金額對不起啦好啦來我講你看一下156案上面有寫加強原住民學生那是一千兩百萬啊然後還有原住民學生課後扶植這邊預算是1540"},{"start":18278.596,"end":18278.616,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":18297.284,"end":18314.07,"text":"我們希望他們那個行政單位剛剛講三次齁一個是三次都不講後來來講也講不清楚行政單位怎麼會比立法委員還講得不清楚所以我們希望是不是來專案先凍結專案報告說明之後我們再試情況來解凍好不好好然後好154是簡列200嘛齁"},{"start":18324.775,"end":18351.903,"text":"一百五十四是減內兩百,一百五十六是合併凍結,是不是?徐卿委員,我要問清楚。這樣子嗎?沒錯齁?我再給主委一個機會,你要不要再說明一下?因為這個案齁,還是跟委員包括,因為就是兩個案齁,那我們處長是不是再來說明一下?"},{"start":18355.179,"end":18365.607,"text":"有關族語標示的地方,我們有兩個計畫一個計畫是針對我們原鄉的政府機關所做的族語標示的補助一個是對部落的族語標示的補助,這兩個是不同的對象有不同的工作指標,麻煩委員跟我們支持,謝謝"},{"start":18387.601,"end":18393.748,"text":"如果...因為..."},{"start":18395.97,"end":18420.647,"text":"因為這個恢復這個山川地名的這個族名這個標示真的是很重要這個錢也是一種族語的一個傳承那個方式我們希望我們各地方公共設施都能夠用族語來讓我們更多的族群來認識主委抱歉你這個總共編了多少錢你要恢復這些地名和標示"},{"start":18427.099,"end":18448.146,"text":"1830萬1830嘛 那一定是地方政府要報上來你們才有可能嘛 對不對所以你可以 你也報不了 做不了那麼多啦所以徐昭偉說檢列200 我覺得是可以接受的啦我們這個不要浪費那麼多時間好不好因為你115年還是可以做 116年還是可以做啊你114年不見得你整個會做完啊"},{"start":18449.691,"end":18452.914,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":18477.472,"end":18505.922,"text":"所以減入200沒有問題他不是把你科目拿掉你明年還可以做後年還可以做不見得你現在剛剛說你編了一千多萬嘛對不對一千多萬你在114年全部都會用完嗎主委你不要在那邊堅持了啦你一回購置業都聽得懂我的意思了好不好兩百萬就兩百萬了嘛對啊可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":18510.29,"end":18531.945,"text":"主委你不要堅持啦這個我剛剛幫你解釋了你一千多萬你在114年不可能全部做完嘛好主委好那好那一百五十一百五十四案一百五十四案簡列兩百"},{"start":18535.37,"end":18564.594,"text":"好,那156案就照剛剛宣告的這樣子,好。好,那我們進入第十目。好。好。不是,那個麥委員剛剛...我們是基金還沒談耶。對,原民會基金了。"},{"start":18567.126,"end":18589.045,"text":"是你要後面談還是現在第10幕?原文會的預算啊!現在不就是原文會的預算嗎?還沒喔對不起抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉"},{"start":18590.718,"end":18594.404,"text":"主席,第十目是關於"},{"start":18601.857,"end":18602.938,"text":"原住民族委員會主管作業基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審"},{"start":18623.601,"end":18625.102,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。四、繼續審"},{"start":18642.131,"end":18665.743,"text":"我們也看到就是我們的高齡科技創造這個部分,針對我們的高齡友善的部分,但是我們感覺就是沒有缺缺,還有沒有日期,就是病時滾動更新的計劃配合的長者,這個部分就是也到醫療長照需求。"},{"start":18668.184,"end":18680.95,"text":"並在這個計劃的成效還有就是在2114年的預算的成果預算裡面的情形也沒有說明這個部分我們也希望說我們的原民會這邊也要給我們更"},{"start":18687.366,"end":18690.189,"text":"要計劃要修得更好,還有說我們要長照著的需求,要優化的報告,這個部分我們很重視,因為我們的長輩的健康還有婦幼的健康這兩個。"},{"start":18704.863,"end":18718.147,"text":"這兩個要給我再詳細的說明在一個月內因為這個部分我們覺得預算很多但是呢我們的效果沒有那麼好這個部分我是有解凍15%以上報告 謝謝還沒有 還沒有其他問題還沒有解凍 凍結15%好 來 徐委員第10目本席有兩個案"},{"start":18733.451,"end":18737.6,"text":"195案我們是特別救原住民族就業服務經費389.1萬"},{"start":18742.079,"end":18766.036,"text":"我們要特別說明現在原住民族的整個家庭低收入戶還是佔比非常高顯現出原住民族家庭經濟情況相對弱勢所以我們覺得整個的就業服務的成效我們現在看到是覺得不夠所以我們希望凍結"},{"start":18769.226,"end":18790.036,"text":"這項預算389.1萬等到原住民委員會改善原住民家庭收入提出具體的改善方案專案報告之後我們再來動之再來考慮動之那第196案呢主要就是原住民族社會安全發展計劃"},{"start":18792.317,"end":18812.908,"text":"當中的業務費的委辦費,裡面有4,420萬2千元。這個本席在質詢的時候也講過,應該講過一兩次了。就是原住民族的工作權,工作權的部分。那這一個部分呢,我們整個的原住民"},{"start":18814.537,"end":18830.612,"text":"委員會就貸金的部分一直沒有提出具體的改善方案所以我們凍結這項預算500萬希望這個專案報告之後我們再視情況來解凍以上兩案,謝謝"},{"start":18836.911,"end":18849.495,"text":"謝謝主席我是針對198案有關原住民族社會安全發展計畫的業務費的一般事務費我們可以看到就是在113年度的預算數是237萬6千元可是114年度這個政府達到3.91倍"},{"start":18860.638,"end":18871.567,"text":"是3.91倍,所以我是覺得這個部分明年度增加的幅度實在太大所以這個部分是不是我建議要減劣550萬,謝謝還有沒有其他委員?那個,那個劉委員現在主席197案,這個"},{"start":18886.264,"end":18911.669,"text":"運用AI跟高齡科技創造原住民長者高齡友善居家安全環境事辦計畫這利益良善 這沒有問題不過內容上他只有寫說就是用身高體重計跟血壓計去做大數據的蒐集那跟AI其實沒有什麼直接關係你不要因為現在政府希望是AI內閣就所有事情都弄個AI好像很新潮一樣可是你的內容如果跟他沒有關係的話是很奇怪的一件事情那第二個問題是說這個"},{"start":18914.409,"end":18941.671,"text":"身體資料其實屬於各自的範圍的一部分那時候我們跟辦公室在要求說明的時候針對各自的部分如何保護應該也不是說保護啦就是說你如何去確保這個被測量的人他願意提供資料這件事情的配套措施說明的沒有很完善啦所以我是覺得這個有加強說明是必要所以我們這邊有主張凍結該項預算的30%好不好那這個提相關的詳細說明配套措施完善之後使得凍值以上謝謝"},{"start":18946.099,"end":18959.173,"text":"我本席是在第194案那這個是提到社會安全網第二期的計畫那它編列是兩億七千八百六十萬喔那實際上是110到114啦"},{"start":18961.736,"end":18986.412,"text":"不過我們都知道這個過去的原家中心好不容易已經納入了社會安全網所以他未來在制度面、經費面都能夠有更好的一個保障但是因為要納入社會安全網仍舊有許多地方的團體有一些些的疑慮他還能不能夠跟過去一樣保有這樣的一個網中網的一個任務功能"},{"start":18989.694,"end":19003.003,"text":"所以之前去年今年也有去做過到行政院找林萬一政委來協助所以有了一個好的方向但是呢上路在即現在的新架構是督導與社工分屬兩個體系"},{"start":19006.445,"end":19032.405,"text":"所以這個部分因為有很多就是還沒有在工作方法上的一個指引那他們也有安全感所以我還是希望說能夠我原本是凍結20%但是我現在本席改組決議啦我希望說能夠到辦公室就書面報告還有親自的來做一個報告那讓我們對這個重要的一個制度能夠有更好的一個溝通掌握謝謝"},{"start":19037.381,"end":19046.868,"text":"來,盧偉好,謝謝主席我本席是第192項關於原住民族社會安全發展計畫的業務費我這邊編列了5,857萬9千元那我詢問過我們住宿刑場造機構的設置情形"},{"start":19053.593,"end":19079.224,"text":"結果原民會的回答只是說並非是中央業務組織機關因此沒有辦法提供相關的資料那既然這個部分因為他是主管原住民族醫療衛生保健業務、推動原住民族社會福利及原住民族就業服務等相關事宜我希望他把原住民族而申請住宿省長照機構這個部分能夠跟衛福部充分溝通"},{"start":19080.024,"end":19091.193,"text":"文化敏感度的部分,還有在地安養和原住民的長照文采能夠禁用的部分,能夠做相當的配合,才能夠放行凍結,就是20%的凍結數。"},{"start":19094.878,"end":19122.971,"text":"高居瑋我們現在談的是第十目也就是我們社會服務推展業務社服務的我們明年度的預算總共要編三十億兩千多萬元我針對186案這個部分就是社會服務推展這個部分就是原住民的健康保險老年基本保證年金的業務我覺得"},{"start":19124.071,"end":19138.279,"text":"我們一點都不貼心啊這個社福處我們老年人第一年紀比較大第二呢原鄉地區交通不方便他的資源匱乏資訊流通不足這真的會導致"},{"start":19139.52,"end":19147.282,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審查中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。五、繼續審查中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。"},{"start":19163.927,"end":19186.177,"text":"嫁接起來之後把它給我們的中規處以後我們就不要老人家每年自己要去申請了所以我本來凍結你們五百萬啦現在我凍結你們兩百萬希望你們三個月之內要向我們內政委員會提出專案報告我再讓你解凍另外一個案子是190案"},{"start":19191.081,"end":19197.167,"text":"192對於《原住民工作權保障法》大法官的釋字第810號解釋是違憲的,要在兩年內依據解釋的意旨進行修正。"},{"start":19207.498,"end":19219.282,"text":"政府處,你們一直在兩年內,你們都還沒有喔!所以已過了兩年喔!所以,也就是原住民工作權保障法目前還一直在停留在違憲"},{"start":19221.038,"end":19221.999,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查"},{"start":19258.199,"end":19280.143,"text":"主席、各位委員,謝謝各位委員一直關心我們設不出相關的業務。為了方便,大概我就是從那個185的開始,我用那個暗號來去做一個逐一說明。那185的部分大概除了麥委員,也謝謝麥委員改為主席。那還有189、191跟200。那這個部分大概我們都是有跟衛福部國建署那邊去做合作。"},{"start":19281.423,"end":19300.55,"text":"專業部分在衛福部但是我們在分工的部分是在做宣導所以我們在我們的文件站當中也幫忙去宣導說怎麼樣讓我們的婦幼或者是我們的結合病患者的一些相關的一些衛教的部分透過我們的照護員我們大概辦這個已經在那個婦幼部分大概已經有辦了大概72場有1,700多1,700多個人次"},{"start":19304.651,"end":19306.673,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":19329.674,"end":19343.529,"text":"同樣的我們在婦幼跟婦女的健檢部分我們也希望多做一個協助所以也拜託所有相關這個事案的委員都可以按照185一樣都是給予主決議讓我們用數據報告做一個詳細的報告"},{"start":19348.914,"end":19374.378,"text":"那在針對第186的部分有剛剛高軍委員提的這個這個我一直認為是一個很好的一個問題有幫我們問到一些相關幫我們看到但是我跟委員報告我們在去年的時候在國民監理委員會的時候提出一樣的問題希望在勞保局的那個那個他普遍通行的過程當中就一次就是直接告訴我們的主任你到底符合資格可是他告訴我們是因為他有法律的規定就是必須現在就"},{"start":19374.998,"end":19403.955,"text":"國民年金法的規定它還是希望族人要提出申請制所以我們有看過上次在我們會議上面有提出所以它其實大概就全國它沒有分出原住民全國當中它有來申請的也不過是80幾%而已所以還有剩下的那個部分確實是權益上面那有可能是出國有可能是真的是像我們在部落裡面因為像馬來西亞那麼遠的地方它沒有辦法來做一個申請但是這個國民年金就是衛福部那邊"},{"start":19404.535,"end":19404.695,"text":"三、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":19433.52,"end":19441.746,"text":"二、繼續審查188年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查197年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":19463.4,"end":19463.7,"text":"一、繼續審。四、繼續審。五、繼續審。"},{"start":19481.966,"end":19506.541,"text":"都會請長者幫我們寫下那個同意書所以目前雖然是事半大概我們大概有25家文件站是慢慢這樣加進來那這裡面還有很多功能包含是說你用藥提醒瓦斯火災的那個相關的政策我們都希望可以透過IT或是AI的相關的一些數據可以讓我們真正讓我們文件站我們的獨居長者那個生活品質會越來越好"},{"start":19508.118,"end":19514.964,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查九、繼續審查十、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、"},{"start":19534.46,"end":19553.497,"text":"不可能受到工作歧視說只能做月顧五類我們希望有更多的公務的部門來使用按照法令的規定來禁用更多的原住民族人這樣的話也可以讓我們的工作收入現在差去8000多也可以來做一個來慢慢的增加因為畢竟現在公務人員的薪水比一般的人還是有稍微有好一點"},{"start":19555.019,"end":19567.289,"text":"第二、繼續審查192年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。三、繼續審查192年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。四、繼續審查192年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。"},{"start":19577.518,"end":19591.685,"text":"所以委員他們都希望說我們在平台當中去解決我們原住民社級的長照相關問題所以也不怕說因為我們顏名會的分工沒有在這邊但是我們在平台上面我們都可以來去做一個處理所以這個麻煩委員是不是也可以改為主決議"},{"start":19592.725,"end":19601.43,"text":"193年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。四、繼續審查194年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。五、繼續審查194年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。六、繼續審查197年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。七、繼續審查198年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金。"},{"start":19619.82,"end":19619.84,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":19638.402,"end":19660.8,"text":"增加到2億7千多萬左右。那就也謝謝委員來照顧我們。所以我們的221個原住民的社工人員已經讓他們不用再擔心明年的工作還有沒有。好,那進入到第195萬,那謝謝許營委員的那個指導。那這跟委員報告,那現在如果把這個都減列,389萬是等於一個就業科的預算都沒有了。"},{"start":19661.741,"end":19681.929,"text":"他的那個整個就業課的預算就只有389萬而已但是他裡面要做的五項工作大概是就業狀況調查工作前保障法的宣導還有督發計劃資訊設備93萬而已然後剩下就拆理費那但是我們對一些說我們低收入高的那個部分或是說我們的就業成效的部分"},{"start":19682.894,"end":19702.327,"text":"我們從一個數據來看就好了我們的就業力已經跟現在跟全國已經差0.05從過去已經是8點多已經從政府這樣十幾年這樣一直下來這樣已經慢慢我們的失業率已經趨近0所以我們在108年開始我們有發現到一個數據就是我們的工作收入跟全國還是差了大概8千多萬"},{"start":19703.127,"end":19704.089,"text":"一、繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":19713.376,"end":19716.919,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":19741.96,"end":19741.98,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":19760.657,"end":19760.677,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":19779.048,"end":19784.452,"text":"二、繼續審查11923年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":19804.008,"end":19820.016,"text":"最後就是在198徐益臻委員的那個部分跟委員報告因為前面剛剛有提到是因為我們的社工有增加預算已經正式可以納入到預算了所以我們相關所有的一些預算都會做一個等比例的增加所以是不是建議委員"},{"start":19821.657,"end":19846.427,"text":"這個部分可以因為我們有相關業務都增加所以才會有這樣的倍數增加所以一般事務會的部分建勤委員是不是可以給一個那個主婕宜或者是建宜免三這個再拜託委員那199部分以後那雖然是扣大概大概一個六萬塊那也這個這個再拜託委員那200以上大概都已經做一個初步的說明謝謝委員好 鄭騙昌委員"},{"start":19855.747,"end":19881.296,"text":"好 謝謝我們這個處長詳細的說明這個第一個原住民族工作權保障法之所以上一屆沒有完成你現在說都超額超額按照你們所送來的版本下次就因為所有的清潔人員工友那些一般的鄉長就不會用了啦"},{"start":19882.722,"end":19882.742,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":19902.563,"end":19904.885,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":19917.492,"end":19924.294,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":19946.677,"end":19971.597,"text":"阿紐爺那個剛剛針對那個AI這件事情我還是沒有說到非常明白啦你到底是要放文件站還是要放獨居長者的家裡還是說他們一定都會去文件站現在趕快回答一下文件站裡面有一千多個獨居長者都會在文件站就對了那你這個一千多萬因為你講說用AI收集數據不然房子跌倒等等他都在文件站了"},{"start":19972.5,"end":19972.52,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":20003.258,"end":20003.278,"text":"好。"},{"start":20005.744,"end":20027.628,"text":"好,第195案你這個報告的單位你就是隨便念過去那你隨便念過去我聽過去我也發現其實我凍結你你的業務你念了三項其實那三項你沒做反正情況也是如此所以感覺這389.1萬還是該凍結等你們具體的專案報告"},{"start":20034.895,"end":20049.844,"text":"之後我們再來解凍再考慮要不要解凍那196萬剛剛這個政經財委員也有提我聽你講你說什麼聘用的早就超過什麼預計聘用的"},{"start":20050.987,"end":20075.125,"text":"我們現在就是發現很多企業就是沒有聘任一定比例的原住民然後呢他最後就繳納代金而且呢他可能就是用最低工資這樣繳納所以還是對於我們這個原住民的這個工作權的保障我們認為還是沒有做到所以我們這邊還是一樣凍結500萬希望可以有專案報告謝謝"},{"start":20081.889,"end":20099.515,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛針對198案有剛剛有說明就說是因為人數跟業務的增加所以有等比例的增加經費嗎不過目前政府因為是3.91倍啦那我不曉得您說的等比的增加是多少是不是能夠提供數據好嗎好要該提供的數據要提供那"},{"start":20109.761,"end":20121.88,"text":"各位委員,如果照剛剛鄭天才委員的提議,大家有沒有意見?我知道,我知道。高金委員,高金委員要說。"},{"start":20126.644,"end":20152.307,"text":"至於待會要凍結多少錢我覺得大家可以休息一下討論另外我想要問一下原民會主委我剛剛沒有在我的這個提案裡面因為你到各個文件站你已經說明年要提高他們的業務費請問一下你是哪裡來的底氣已經說這個預算找到了嗎?"},{"start":20161.618,"end":20175.049,"text":"今年有增加一點業務費從哪裡增加?長照基金所以今年有提高一點,那明年呢?你有跟大家說明年要提高業務費,提高多少?"},{"start":20176.628,"end":20201.641,"text":"報告委員,其實我們大概今年的時候啊,我們的業務費以前過去是比較少,但是我們比照為何不得向東長江站,所以我們的那個業務費其實有等比例都增加蠻多的,最高可以到大概幾乎到100,大概60到100。我知道啊,但是問題是主委到各個文件站是說明年他要再提高業務費耶。主委你沒有忘把,要不要把這個新聞弄給你看。"},{"start":20202.679,"end":20230.76,"text":"提供就是部分的業務費給我們的文件站不是講部分啦業務費就是業務費啊目前是多少?處長你來說明一下目前我們的文件站的業務費是多少錢?對,三個不同的等級從六十幾萬到大概一百萬左右都有因為它有分三日、五日然後還有二十人、三十人跟四十人我知道那所以現在主委到各個文件站聽好我的問題說明年要增加他們的業務費"},{"start":20232.521,"end":20241.43,"text":"因為這要負責任啊主委你講的話要負責任啊而且新聞媒體都播出來了請問你要增加多少"},{"start":20243.152,"end":20264.209,"text":"我們是部分的增加不是說一個不是 你有分三個等級嘛對 三個等級要增加多少第一個等級增加多少第二個等級增加多少第三個等級增加多少這些錢你跟衛福部談好了沒有如果沒有談好的話你就到部落裡面去說明那我等一下再凍結預算我就必須要凍結喔我們還沒談好但是因為這個我們業務單位會做一個評估"},{"start":20269.994,"end":20270.014,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":20287.674,"end":20311.164,"text":"但是我們的主委到各個文件站都已經跟我們的文件站說明年度要調高他們的業務費趙委跟你報告一下說要不要負責任所以我特別問他因為這個預算不是在他們手上是在衛福部所以今天在你業務回答審預算的時候你繼續要負責任的告訴我們要增加多少的業務費"},{"start":20312.865,"end":20327.756,"text":"不管是一級、二級、三級你要增加10%、20%你總要說明啊因為你到文件站都已經跟大家報告了啊那我跟委員報告齁那因為我們都會做一個那個查核那查核之後會分兩塊一個就是說如果"},{"start":20329.617,"end":20344.969,"text":"你沒有回答我的問題啦!政委,他們如果這樣子的話我就要凍結他們多一點的預算了因為主委,我剛剛說了你已經是主委了你不是文化中心主任主委管原民會的業務是"},{"start":20347.01,"end":20365.598,"text":"橫向聯繫他跟一個小內閣一樣你很辛苦我們都知道但是你不能夠因為你是主委的身份到各個地方去隨便亂開支票啊所以當我看到新聞說你要來增加文件站的業務費的時候"},{"start":20367.179,"end":20367.219,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":20388.206,"end":20398.069,"text":"我們這裡我們會跟衛福處來談我有信心跟衛福部不能夠講信心啦主委我沒有講要增加多少的額度啊你已經到各地方的文件證都已經說要提高金額了那請問一下衛福部有告訴你他願意接受多少嗎我的記憶喔因為當初主委在談這個兩萬其實我們已經跟衛福部有談了那談的時候他也同意可以增加兩萬塊所以我們到11月中旬所以你有什麼意思增加業務費增加兩萬"},{"start":20418.215,"end":20433.888,"text":"對,增加兩萬四,主要是因為那個火石會的部分,因為那個物料增加所以我們到10月的時候,正式才會用公文的方式來去告訴說這個是確定的,明年就會增加你說什麼10月份的公文要給10月份我們有正式發"},{"start":20435.729,"end":20450.24,"text":"九月三號的時候就有正式發新聞稿跟讓大家知道說那過去我們那個兩萬塊的部分已經跟衛福部談好了就是可以讓大家所有的業務會再增加兩萬塊所以你的意思是說只增加兩萬塊兩萬塊有符合我們現在的物價嗎?"},{"start":20451.742,"end":20456.065,"text":"你現在清楚知道你不能夠講伙食費欸你現在所有的業務伙食費的其中包含在裡面欸是嗎?對吧?處長你比我清楚嘛那你的意思是說每個文件占業務費只增加兩萬塊?"},{"start":20472.08,"end":20481.132,"text":"是這樣的意思嗎?增加2萬塊的意思嗎?但跟衛福部講好了嗎?那現在最高的業務費是多少?最高是101。101增加2萬是多少?"},{"start":20487.474,"end":20513.852,"text":"99到101,剛剛已經加了,就101了加了兩萬塊,101兩萬塊會增加他的多少伙食費?請問一下一個人增加多少?至少是最低是大概60塊,我們不能低於60塊你60塊去哪裡買便當?所以每一個地方會不大一樣所以,所以,主委、處長你們應該是要跟衛福部趕快增加你60塊要去哪裡買便當?我請問你"},{"start":20517.239,"end":20534.256,"text":"現在60塊可以買到便當嗎?所以你有增加2萬塊,好,我們就不在這邊凍結你。但是以後希望你們在講這件事情的時候,應該要去思考文件站到底缺少多少。"},{"start":20535.253,"end":20535.273,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":20564.75,"end":20564.77,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":20577.668,"end":20604.705,"text":"謝謝主席不好意思有一場好像發新聞稿那天因為我有在場主席是希望因為時間很晚盡量能不發言就不要發言那我趁主席允許我現在發言因為我是覺得主委剛剛站在那邊看我覺得蠻辛苦的啦因為我們質詢大家都知道我們每次都在幫文件站抱怨"},{"start":20607.11,"end":20612.264,"text":"業務費包山包海包括油料、油費接老人家"},{"start":20613.519,"end":20640.706,"text":"所以其實要拿來去煮餐大家也都怨聲載道現在物價那麼高又地處偏遠這一些整個採購其實成本都很高那也幫忙質詢也在衛福部那邊也希望能夠多多幫忙所以我覺得作為一個原住民事務主管機關的主委要有這樣的一個"},{"start":20641.909,"end":20642.209,"text":"擔事擔心擔心擔心擔心擔心擔心"},{"start":20671.047,"end":20688.996,"text":"因為這個文件站是過去8年深受我們部落非常肯定的一個長照政策但是確實還有很多不足的地方特別是空間的部分所以我也希望我們也要再接再厲就這個需求希望原民會要主動謝謝"},{"start":20701.957,"end":20726.044,"text":"好,那我們就整目凍結兩千萬,然後所有委員提案並按處理,然後專案報告後時可動之。好,謝謝。那我們現在再來就是主決議。主決議都有去溝通過了吧?好,不是啦。主委,都有溝通過了齁?"},{"start":20728.795,"end":20753.216,"text":"有溝通但是我還抱歉主決議的部分就是基金的部分抱歉我們現在是要講主決議了嗎?我們先處理主決議等一下才是基金我們要談一下就是主決議的部分我是有講到這個綜合發展基金的部分綜合發展基金我們可以看到第201"},{"start":20756.277,"end":20759.721,"text":"二、繼續審大家看一下右邊我做的歷年撥補基金的額度"},{"start":20773.277,"end":20794.787,"text":"我們的政府從105年有撥給基金會預算以後106一直到114年都沒有所以當我們在談進法補償不能夠使用綜合發展基金的原因是因為我們看到基金已經短處達到了67.66億"},{"start":20798.169,"end":20820.799,"text":"所以我相信主計總署跟行政院也清楚知道這個基金的短處的問題因此在禁法補償的部分全部要由公務基金來編列了公務預算來編列了但是我們的綜合發展基金講得很清楚它有它要做的事情"},{"start":20822.06,"end":20837.888,"text":"但是現在按照短處的67.66億我們有很多東西都不能做了所以因此我跟鄭天才委員在立法院裡面我們有提案綜合發展基金是不能夠"},{"start":20839.369,"end":20863.848,"text":"水位不能夠少於一百億的原因就是因為中發基金有它要做的事情然後到目前為止短處因為它的短處所以有四大項要做的事情都沒有好好的做所以因此呢在這裡我的主決議我是希望我們的主計總處能夠一次性的撥補"},{"start":20866.029,"end":20890.615,"text":"這個因為禁法補償而導致我們綜合發展基金短處67.66億的主決議所以我請問一下這個原民會主委我知道了你們認為一致性是有問題的啦對吧是不是那如果如果我在這邊跟你說分三年你們應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":20892.312,"end":20893.834,"text":"所以在組決議上面所以我在這邊你看倒數第三行"},{"start":20904.067,"end":20921.164,"text":"編列相關的預算我本來是寫一次性的撥補那這裡呢我們就把它改為分三年補足平均分三年來補足因為禁法補償所導致的短處的"},{"start":20923.866,"end":20930.718,"text":"綜合發展基金額度以確保基金持續發揮促進原住民族經濟與社會發展的功能。"},{"start":20937.411,"end":20965.012,"text":"請問一下這樣有聽懂齁那個一次性那個我們就分3年來補足平均分3年平均來補足我是聽得懂啦請主委說一下我們會努力爭取啦就是分3年來爭取好 謝謝他去爭取決定前在那個主計總處還有行政院"},{"start":20966.974,"end":20993.179,"text":"好,那個主委,所有的組決議都沒問題齁?都照案通過是不是?三個案子文字修正除了201案、204案、214案有文字修正之外,其他的都OK嗎?OK對齁?蛤?你用麥克風講啊?不然大家沒聽到?對對齁?這樣大家都聽到"},{"start":20997.912,"end":21010.781,"text":"好,那我們就所有組決議就照這樣通過好不好?因為我這邊有做文字修正,我還是說明一下好不好?我這邊在216案齁,也就是"},{"start":21013.263,"end":21042.215,"text":"我們現在聯絡道路實際是1805公里可是實際養戶只有1022公里落差非常大所以原民會這邊要努力去爭取更多的經費未請緊編列2.20再增加1.7還是遠遠不足所以希望三個月提出檢討報告謝謝好你要回答可以可以啦會我會努力好"},{"start":21043.831,"end":21071.944,"text":"好 那就這樣齁 那我們接下來趕快我們來審這個原住民族文化事業基金會預算還有來一個你剛剛這兩個保留的喔 對齁 來來來 不好意思我們最早那個保留的第一案 第二案第一案 第二案嘿"},{"start":21072.847,"end":21074.347,"text":"第一案、第二案"},{"start":21094.71,"end":21120.104,"text":"就是我們最開始的稅出的部分那個通案通案的部分那我們後面我們剛每一條都有處理的這裡我們就不處理的啦好不好喔好啦好啦就好好不好好啦那就一樣專案報告啦好不好那我們就這樣子好不好好謝謝那我們現在來那個我剛說的原住民族文化事業基金會預算"},{"start":21122.263,"end":21148.772,"text":"來,我們收入沒有委員提案大家有沒有找到?這一個就原住民族文化事業基金會預算有沒有?應該手上都有吧?有啦齁?蛤?我是提醒啦,提醒"},{"start":21151.121,"end":21177.171,"text":"本來那個他們要去處理的時候,一到這邊來處理。我知道我知道,可是,不是咧,可是,他好像不是這個啊。不是,他應該是綜合發展基金那個吧。是文化事業這個啊。不是吧。"},{"start":21184.706,"end":21196.215,"text":"不是不是那個高居委員我們要我們要處理的應該是原住民族委員研究發展基金的吧對啊啊所以應該是這一個"},{"start":21273.94,"end":21290.325,"text":"我們不好意思喔各位我們要先來處理原住民族文化發展中心的預算案好不好因為他這個算是公預算我們先處理我們稅務部分各位委員"},{"start":21292.561,"end":21301.133,"text":"徐委員主席這個爭奪收入部分我是暗號3"},{"start":21311.294,"end":21335.033,"text":"因為我們知道針對這個部分我知道曾主委之前就是在原住民文化發展中心擔任主任那所以以這個稅入的部分針對他的相關的這個規費的收入我是覺得目前只編這樣的預算數是相對有點太少啦那我覺得所以我的提案是要增列300萬"},{"start":21340.839,"end":21347.404,"text":"徐宇貞委員政略300黃俊斌委員政略500吳飛希望他們能加緊努力"},{"start":21359.991,"end":21372.961,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":21373.787,"end":21381.032,"text":"稍等,稍等,稍等,稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等稍等"},{"start":21399.545,"end":21399.565,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":21415.669,"end":21437.618,"text":"所以我們這一兩年也爭取到那個行政院那個綠珠雕琢的計劃那麼持續把一些公共設施跟服務的環境的部分做改善跟更新那麼第二個我們希望透過郵程的活動的設計讓年輕的遊客的比例能夠增加不過我跟委員報告不過這需要時間所以因為我們這幾年稅務的規模都一樣"},{"start":21441.22,"end":21442.521,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查"},{"start":21463.342,"end":21491.31,"text":"我覺得最少也要300萬吧你不能夠按照原來你看一下黃金兵委員是要讓你們增列1000萬喔我是要500喔然後最少的是徐宇貞委員的喔所以給你們目標好不好因為現在花東地區已經是遊客很少了所以你們疲東要加油要努力好不好所以我覺得300我同意啦"},{"start":21492.27,"end":21492.29,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":21516.716,"end":21540.944,"text":"我們收入部分我們就增加增列300萬再來我們開始稅出的部分我們第一幕一般行政徐委員只有你有提案她不在我是提案第五案跟第六案"},{"start":21542.625,"end":21560.038,"text":"第五案的部分主要是因為我們現在說水電費的部分因為其實當然我們都知道今年水電費有增加不過因為你現在增列的漲幅是23%所以我想賴總統有提過我們政府要帶領各行各業進行深度節能"},{"start":21561.139,"end":21584.147,"text":"所以說這個部分的話我們還增加的幅度是高達23%所以我是提案要減劣100萬元然後另外在第6案的部分是針對我們這個原住民文化發展中心在一般行政向下的基本行政工作維持的部分因為我們可以看到就是"},{"start":21584.847,"end":21605.559,"text":"今年編列的預算數是比去年多了7.18倍那我不曉得說針對這個部分為什麼會編列的預算增加這麼多就當花則花啦但是我覺得不該浪費的一毛錢都不能浪費尤其是增加了7.18倍以上要不要說明一下"},{"start":21606.072,"end":21607.633,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":21627.941,"end":21654.302,"text":"更新,這是我們很重要的一個文物館的一個重新啟用。那麼第二個就是明年1月我們會取得使用執照的我們的歌舞館。那麼這個歌舞館它裡面可以容納850個人的作息。那麼它到時候是南台灣很重要的原住民樂舞展演的基地,也在明年1月會取得使用執照。那麼第三個是生態展示館會重新啟用,都是在明年初的事情。"},{"start":21655.003,"end":21655.023,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":21672.436,"end":21698.129,"text":"電費調漲因素純粹是為了有三大管社要更新。我們同步也有在做一些節能的一個努力。所以我們現在在有一些空調的時間還有空調的那個溫度的管控上都已經有做一些調整。那麼這樣的處理之後我們何時的評估在明年的這些水電費的確是有這樣一個需要。所以我們才做這樣一個編料那這個是水電費的一個部分。"},{"start":21698.929,"end":21716.402,"text":"至於剛才委員還有提到公共設施我們在114年的預算比本年度多了4000多萬裡面扣掉2300萬是綠珠雕琢的最後一年的計劃其他公共設施的部分大概增加了1000多萬塊、2000萬因為跟我們報告我們園區的環境有42公頃"},{"start":21722.746,"end":21746.916,"text":"有79棟傳統建物有7大廳舍從民國76年啟用到現在37年的時間很多的廳舍還有很多的一些講重點好不好所以我們這個有關公共設施環境改善的部分是經過核實的評估需要在明年做一些改善增加對遊客的服務"},{"start":21751.182,"end":21765.462,"text":"問題是,剛剛你講的這些跟去年度相比有增加哪些聽涉嗎?你剛剛講的應該本來就有嘛,對不對?那為什麼今年度會增加這麼多的機會?像我舉一個例子,像我們那個傳統監獄有79棟"},{"start":21768.606,"end":21793.465,"text":"我們大概都每年要做部分的一個一個一個更新那麼第二個也就是我們一些水電的基礎設施比如說高壓電比如說自來水管比如說道路的護坡都需要做個處理所以我們是因為在原來的預算不足的情況之下那麼持續跟原民會爭取所以在明年度的時候多編了這些公共基礎設施環境的一個預算"},{"start":21794.929,"end":21798.43,"text":"公共設施公共設施公共設施公共設施公共設施公共設施公共設施"},{"start":21824.997,"end":21844.224,"text":"那就先用凍結然後等到相關的資料那這樣子好不好就第一幕啊徐委員我們第一幕整幕凍結兩百萬然後你要書面還是專案書面我們書面再跟委員報告好徐委員"},{"start":21845.345,"end":21845.545,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":21870.401,"end":21871.782,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":21898.171,"end":21914.445,"text":"我是針對第9案就是有關藝術展演及文化推廣業務上下的藝術展演業務經費這次是資訊軟硬體的設備費也是一樣比去年度增加了200萬"},{"start":21918.507,"end":21920.028,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":21937.894,"end":21937.914,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":21953.007,"end":21979.108,"text":"努力。那麼現在還有4000多件的典藏的文物需要進入這個所謂的數位典藏的一個系統那因為前幾年都沒有編列這個這個這個經費所以我們在今年就爭取本會的支持在明年爭取這200萬我們會把剩下的那個4000件4000件的文物會進入那個為什麼前幾年都沒有編列因為預算有限"},{"start":21979.878,"end":22008.072,"text":"那前幾年的主任是誰啊?我以前在那邊就是經費不多啦所以就是很辛苦的在經營所以當然今天就是說看到了那邊的困難那我想要讓那邊希望因為畢竟是37年的一個歷史很多東西一定要還是要盡量讓它再充實一下"},{"start":22011.293,"end":22034.538,"text":"主委的意思是說因為你以前在那邊所以知道很多地方是需要改善的地方所以這次才特別編經費那所以這麼久的時間都沒有做的原因是因為沒有經費那如果像你今年編列這兩百萬之後你覺得這個部分的計畫就可以把這個典藏的部分做好嗎?就可以完成嗎?"},{"start":22036.431,"end":22036.571,"text":"主席"},{"start":22066.98,"end":22067.921,"text":"出版文化及環境教育相關書籍"},{"start":22082.554,"end":22085.915,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查十。"},{"start":22104.582,"end":22127.349,"text":"傳統植物的調查所以我們也出了幾本有關原住民傳統植物的書刊那麼這個書刊除了讓我們的導覽內容更豐富之外也可以讓外界知道我們台灣原住民族文化園區有哪些原住民的傳統作物所以錢不是很多其實我們總共才91萬不過真的要出版幾本書的話"},{"start":22128.709,"end":22128.729,"text":"實體閱讀實體書刊"},{"start":22150.5,"end":22167.412,"text":"他把標本做出來的意思啊?不是,我們比如說我們在去年跟前年做了一本原住民族文化園區的傳統植物的一個介紹,他就是把我們園區裡面所有的跟原住民有關的傳統的植物做了一個調查,然後出了一本書,分上下集。"},{"start":22168.257,"end":22168.277,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":22193.03,"end":22221.381,"text":"這樣我們請高進委員這個部分請那個信義委員就是能夠支持了其實預算不多但是我要要求你們因為現在教文處裡面有一個知識體系建構知識體系你們應該要把你們的這些你剛剛所說的調查出來的職務也好標本也好你們要跟教文處的知識體系嫁接你們有嫁接起來嗎目前沒有請問一下處長"},{"start":22222.882,"end":22250.808,"text":"嘉文處的陳處長不是我覺得原民會裡面你們預算已經不多了我們很願意支持你們的預算可是你們不要各做各的好不好你們各處事你們的橫向聯繫都要啊因為我們立法委員不斷的幫你爭取經費然後把政策給它弄好可是你們自己內部裡面的橫向聯繫都不要講到其他的部會哦你自己都沒有哦所以請問一下那個黃主任是不是"},{"start":22255.215,"end":22276.63,"text":"秋黃主任,你們也能夠跟教文處合作,好不好?我們也爭取徐欣盈委員不要給你們減劣這個錢,讓你們去做。但是呢,它就是我們知識體系的建構很重要的核心價值,可以嗎?既然高金委員這樣講,而且剛剛你也講你們的這種實體"},{"start":22279.161,"end":22279.281,"text":"三、繼續審三、繼續審"},{"start":22307.579,"end":22330.679,"text":"這樣是不是我們節目待會兒再來討論跟邁財文委員有什麼意見要說,我們讓他說完再來討論,請邁財文委員。謝謝主席關於就是我們原住民的藝術展演還有文化推廣這個部分因為我們每次就是活動"},{"start":22331.92,"end":22331.94,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":22347.188,"end":22347.508,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":22365.157,"end":22365.538,"text":"管理中心展現。"},{"start":22394.657,"end":22397.9,"text":"這些的話有很多都是失傳這個部分我們也希望說在關於原住民的這個文化還有這個藝術的部分是不是我們要怎麼樣讓他就是保留跟我們長輩挖寶"},{"start":22411.454,"end":22411.474,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":22427.111,"end":22427.131,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":22451.071,"end":22465.08,"text":"我非常清楚知道主委你之前在這個位置上我在文化部給你們建立一個平台對不對我要問一下這個平台齁跟你們現在列的1865萬6千元有沒有增加還是就在你這個1865萬裡面來做文化部有沒有給你們增加預算"},{"start":22473.066,"end":22474.368,"text":"現在重點的工作大概都是在南島論壇的那一項"},{"start":22493.029,"end":22493.049,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":22513.215,"end":22536.397,"text":"因為我在教文出了之後我來內政的時候你們不可以弄到南島去喔當時我建立這個平台就是要讓我們的藝術展演跟文化推廣喔這個文化推廣包括我們各鄉鎮的博物館喔那你們怎麼會把錢放在別的地方呢你們每一年開幾次會"},{"start":22538.018,"end":22539.359,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":22554.649,"end":22555.33,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":22581.071,"end":22581.091,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":22598.124,"end":22624.345,"text":"怎麼分?他們佔百分之幾?你們佔百分之幾?細部的資料我手邊現在沒有,是不是?好,這樣子,那如果是這樣子的話,我們看一下第二幕,牛喜廷委員有凍結你百分之二十,那其他人都是在減劣,麥義貞委員凍結百分之十。我的建議,你就凍結百分之十五,你來跟我說明,因為你剛剛突然爆出一個難導,嚇死我了。"},{"start":22625.166,"end":22625.186,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":22670.007,"end":22672.449,"text":"報告召委,我們沒有刪減就凍結,然後請他來做專案報告,好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":22681.903,"end":22688.928,"text":"那是說15%?15%?1865萬6千的15%?對那就是整目凍結15%,所有委員的案子並按處理,專案報告後時可動之,好不好?然後關於南島那個就是保留協商"},{"start":22709.644,"end":22709.905,"text":"我們繼續來主決議"},{"start":22730.72,"end":22732.261,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":22747.278,"end":22763.583,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五"},{"start":22777.191,"end":22781.915,"text":"已經改組決議了那再來業務成本與費用麥委員"},{"start":22790.525,"end":22815.99,"text":"這個部分因為我們看到就是我們原住民的這邊的那個業務費這邊我們是要補助就是我們的業收入最低於兩萬的就是我們的族群但是我看我這邊是提了六個但是這個都是補助給我們需要的但是我看他的"},{"start":22816.69,"end":22817.911,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":22833.769,"end":22851.102,"text":"就是很簡略也沒有真正的報告清楚所以這個部分我們他們也有來跟我們去做溝通所以我這邊的話我們全部六案我就凍結每一個案就是兩百萬"},{"start":22851.963,"end":22852.643,"text":"主委要不要說明一下"},{"start":22876.823,"end":22893.795,"text":"謝謝委員,我們綜合發展基金主要在業務成本的費用有大家很關心的進法補償所以剛剛委員所講的第二、第三、第四、第五這四案的部分我們就尊重書面報告然後凍結200萬然後在第六案的部分那個科目"},{"start":22895.076,"end":22907.685,"text":"列為原住民族就業基金這個部分剛剛也有跟委員辦公室溝通就是那個科目要做修正所以簡單講說請委員支持這五案我們都是總共凍結兩百萬然後順便報告以上好那就全部就整個業務費用我們凍結一千萬一個兩百乘以五"},{"start":22925.575,"end":22928.338,"text":"全部200?好,全部200,順便報告20個,好謝謝,然後再來主決議。"},{"start":22952.884,"end":22978.619,"text":"你們到底有沒有跟人家委員溝通好啦有在跟委員說明因為我們業務費用裡面其實大部分的這個部分其實是在支持支持這個是不是委員同意就是整個業務成本跟費用我們就動200因為大部分是進法補償的費用啦還是要跟委員做報告那書面報告我們都會照委員的建議裡面去詳實的來說明好以上"},{"start":22989.977,"end":22991.117,"text":"主決議主決議有沒有意見"},{"start":23010.987,"end":23018.793,"text":"我們的部分沒有意見,對。喔,好。我們要先處理哪一個?好,來。然後我們先從這個..."},{"start":23031.997,"end":23055.388,"text":"原住民族語言研究發展基金會預算這裡我們先來處理這個收入部分沒有委員提案這案要移到這邊來處理162案這是語發中心的收入語言只有一個案子"},{"start":23059.784,"end":23072.289,"text":"所以那個剛剛162案的部分162案不是要改來這裡?"},{"start":23088.479,"end":23098.626,"text":"對啊1624在這裡啊嘿所以你會好你們先說明"},{"start":23102.868,"end":23130.439,"text":"這個一補就補三億多本項預算比去年增加了三千多萬因為七大執行策略五十幾個工作項目你當然都略有增加但是你沒有辦法在我們辦公室要求的期限內提出詳細說明我們一樣我們當然支持政府推動政策但該說明該把詳細的資料交出來是要交所以我們就凍結三千萬好不好"},{"start":23132.691,"end":23135.518,"text":"等你報告出來同意之後再來動之嘛好不好"},{"start":23140.446,"end":23141.887,"text":"主席說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明說明"},{"start":23166.34,"end":23180.486,"text":"16年底會提出這是第一個部分那同時也會增進修改我們那個竹群一樂園的這個這幾年來的一些這個措置的部分所以也增加了專研也包括"},{"start":23181.827,"end":23201.11,"text":"系統的那個優化,這是第二個部分。除了這個之外,我們也加強化口譯人才的培育,特別口譯人才的培育中,我們透過訓練能夠讓我們的口譯人才能夠在活動中使用母語。這就也謝謝劉委員的這個支持,以上說明。"},{"start":23203.839,"end":23225.941,"text":"有關於剛剛那個3000多萬的部分如果是包含剛剛AI的那個就是剛剛有特別講到我們因為現在在搶救族友我們都在跟時間賽跑嘛那很多的長者不斷的就是離開我們我們一直很想趕快把這些珍貴的這些語言可以完全的保存下來所以AI"},{"start":23227.823,"end":23249.459,"text":"結合去做這個不管是影像或者一些未來甚至元宇宙的一個這個紀錄跟設計是很重要的所以如果是在這3000多萬如果是有涉及到這樣子的一個計畫我想我是反對去凍結這筆預算因為我們真的在跟時間賽跑啦"},{"start":23253.502,"end":23253.522,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":23275.393,"end":23302.78,"text":"因為這個部分就書面報告了你書面報告送來就解凍了不是專案報告我其實只要書面說明而已啦因為你專案報告可能會影響業務的排行這個我們願意理解但我總要可以交代嘛我們要監督要知道項目的時候書面報告了好不好你們多久之內可以提出你看我現在很溫柔都在問你多久可以提出"},{"start":23303.41,"end":23303.43,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":23320.852,"end":23321.653,"text":"三千萬年底前書面報告後解凍"},{"start":23343.024,"end":23366.639,"text":"業務支出的部分因為所有提案委員都不在場我們就不處理了啦然後再來主決議主決議啊有沒有主決議沒有跟委員說沒有沒有意見啦沒有問題啦沒有問題好沒有問題就好因為都沒來溝通就是表示沒問題啦"},{"start":23375.728,"end":23396.435,"text":"二、繼續審再來我們處理財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會預算收入部分一樣剛剛高金委員的163案、164案、165案我們在這邊處理高金委員還是要直接請他們說明"},{"start":23399.963,"end":23403.525,"text":"原住民族委員會主管作業基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審"},{"start":23418.143,"end":23430.536,"text":"文化事業基金兩百多位。然後這兩百多位還不能夠來自治,都一直在偽製。然後因此才會有採購爭議。大家看到了,前一段時間他們同樣的劇本"},{"start":23436.408,"end":23436.448,"text":"二、繼續審。三、繼續審。"},{"start":23454.634,"end":23471.885,"text":"第一個要求就是要檢討它的西置結構。第二個,它的委制比例太多於這個自治了。第三個就是採購正義的調查報告。我知道原民會你已經有出稿了,對吧?處長沒有錯嗎?請處長。"},{"start":23476.834,"end":23487.664,"text":"有針對那個信息節目採購的部分我們有一個建議案有提供給議員會來參考。好,你們只是一個建議案,這個建議我看到了,你們是要求它廢標嗎?對吧?這個部分因為它採購存在進行中,我跟委員報告說我們有一個很具體的建議給議員會做參考。"},{"start":23497.192,"end":23516.377,"text":"除了這個建議他們之外,我覺得所謂的行政責任、政治責任也要在裡面。請問處長有沒有?這部會等他們這個程序告一段落之後,我們會來要求。什麼時候?他們應該,快請一位來說明一下。好,請董事長來說明一下。"},{"start":23517.934,"end":23535.922,"text":"報告委員,我們有關於這個案的檢討,包括行政作業的疏失,包括懲處的未接或者是人員,我們在一個月內我們會完成這個部分。太久了吧,一個月。我們現在都在審你的預算了耶。不太久啦。而且事發到現在已經很長一段時間了。對,因為這個標案還在進行。"},{"start":23546.738,"end":23575.314,"text":"那所以你們現在是準備讓它繼續飆下去嗎?還是你們會檢討?當然會檢討。好,因為我手上已經拿到有一些當事人給我的一些資料,其實對你們非常沒有不利的。我相信你們應該也很清楚知道了。所以請問一下薪資結構還有委制比例過高,那個部分你們要怎麼處理?包委員,這部分確實在執行沒有,是不是請執行長再說一下?可以,來說明一下。"},{"start":23578.124,"end":23590.191,"text":"知識比例與委制的比例,我們這幾年都有逐步的做調整請問一下,我在立法院23年,原民台成立幾年?明年20年"},{"start":23596.795,"end":23619.687,"text":"這麼長年的時間你們從來都沒有討論過所以沒關係今天不要浪費大家太多的時間我上面的這個提案163案的提案現在就挪到你們這邊來所以我要凍結你們的兩億四千三百萬然後請你們提出兩個月之內提出專案報告好嗎"},{"start":23623.581,"end":23645.241,"text":"那跟劉許廷委員的你是第幾案?你也去人事嘛,對不對?好,我們好了,劉委員要補充我的是那個對,就是說你增編了預算,但你增編預算寫業務可是我們看,現在看這本文化世界基金會要增加的就不是業務,是人事啊那你要怎麼改?能不能改?"},{"start":23646.366,"end":23653.999,"text":"該改就要改啦我是覺得很奇怪你不要這邊講說我是投資業務然後這邊增加的是人事明目對不起來又很奇怪嘛所以有沒有修正的方式"},{"start":23656.069,"end":23684.589,"text":"你把修正的方式研擬出來再解凍啦簡單來說就是這樣啦好不好我是要動14266萬好 包委員這個部分我們來做說明就是1426萬就是就是感謝大院的支持就是有關人事明年的人事的調整的那個8%的那個部分這部分是會主管機關會按照那個程序來做做撥補的部分這是第一個部分那科目的部分應該是應該是在"},{"start":23685.59,"end":23711.088,"text":"我們的說明上我們應該做進一步的說明跟調整這個部分我們再跟委員做報告報告召委我的建議是這樣我跟牛委員的兩個的提案我們就建議就是動2億4300萬然後讓他提出專案報告好不好因為這個太嚴重了好不好謝謝"},{"start":23716.448,"end":23716.468,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":23731.403,"end":23758.617,"text":"包委員,這個費用是每年建築的四億三千八百萬的錢那我們每年的這個建築費主要是做我們節目的這一塊那如果說凍結了大概百分之五十四左右的費用那我們可能在自播節目的這個流程上可能就會往後延,這是不是能不能再有調整你總共經費多少?"},{"start":23759.537,"end":23778.303,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查八、繼續審查九、繼續審查十、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審"},{"start":23788.041,"end":23800.718,"text":"每個月發嘛對啊你要看董事長有沒有同意啊所以你只要前半年把這個處理好就好了幹嘛比別人前半年董事長"},{"start":23869.889,"end":23873.713,"text":"對原文會準備放假沒錢做事"},{"start":23928.34,"end":23931.683,"text":"主席,他們說好了啦,今天啦,你今天要宣布啦。"},{"start":23937.802,"end":23957.591,"text":"沒有啦 你們違反那麼多 違制那麼多你又不是一筆都出去 你是分期給還有時間啦我們往年從來都沒有動你們的預算喔我們第一次喔 第一次喔你們就清楚知道是引起多少人對你們的業務上的一些問題喔好不好"},{"start":23963.018,"end":23973.785,"text":"我先講,原民台的成立我最支持,你們都知道嘛,要假讓你們知道嘛,脫衣公共電視我最支持"},{"start":23989.975,"end":24012.113,"text":"你們的人員加那麼多,我最支持就是我剛剛一直在講的,你們已經有別於主流媒體了你們回去看一下你們的新聞是怎麼播的啦改一改,要凍結,好啦好啦,主席這麼好讓凍結,快來啦好不好,就五千塊,謝謝"},{"start":24016.722,"end":24034.399,"text":"對,這樣子好不好?一定要專案報告。報告召委,在這邊我再另外的說明一下。原民台的成立,我最支持。原民台脫離公共電視,要有自主性,我最支持。"},{"start":24035.834,"end":24042.82,"text":"人民台跟廣播的成立我最支持你們的員額最多也是我最支持可是你們回去聽聽看基層的記者們是如何被你們剝削基層的記者們他們要做的事情多少你們難道不應該好好檢討嗎這是第一件第二件事情我們難道沒有人才嗎"},{"start":24062.398,"end":24063.8,"text":"我們製造自製節目不行嗎?全部都是要委制嗎?"},{"start":24071.266,"end":24075.167,"text":"20幾年來從來沒有刪過原民台的預算從來沒有凍結過你們的預算而現在發生那麼多的問題只是要求你們能夠解決這三個問題你們難道也不願意嗎而剛剛在主委跟陳處長的同意之下我們就"},{"start":24100.191,"end":24105.815,"text":"只凍結你們5000萬就在你們的人事人事以外把人事都編完了以後你們所謂要運作的只凍結你們5000萬讓你們兩個月內之內來報告難道還不行喔去聽聽看外界怎麼形容我們的原民台"},{"start":24125.199,"end":24149.696,"text":"好嗎?好好的反省。那高軍委我處理一下好不好?我覺得就這樣啦,高軍委人家很有誠意啦,從兩億變五千了齁。那我覺得齁,我們就是齁,這個...就是整...全部嘛齁,全部...全部啦齁,全部的收入我們就是凍結五千萬。然後,專案報告後,時可凍資。齁。好。"},{"start":24153.015,"end":24171.485,"text":"好,就這樣,好,那再來張委員,不是收入是支出誒我剛說收入啊,現在我要處理支出了啊對,對,我現在開始處理支出了啊來,我們支出的部分,誒,張委員來了來,來,黃婕委員先"},{"start":24176.65,"end":24191.342,"text":"好支出的部分我要幫那個吳麗花委員說明一下因為他有一個在也是在原民台裡面新聞部新聞業務的部分他認為說上去有人力分配不均而且流動率高的問題還有新聞專業倫理也發生相當多的爭議所以他也認為應該要請約會"},{"start":24196.966,"end":24222.384,"text":"一個月內向立法院的內政委員會提出書面報告之後才能動之。另外一個部分剛剛也有提到他也認為原民台的節目部在委外製作節目的時候缺乏文化的敏感度甚至對於部落跟族人都造成了困擾跟不適這些問題已經多次發生所以他也認為原文會應該要一個月內趕快來報告才可以動之以上"},{"start":24224.585,"end":24232.289,"text":"好,那個張委員,你有沒有想說?你有提案?你不要?好,來,說明一下。"},{"start":24251.405,"end":24274.922,"text":"報告委員有關於我們新聞部的新聞部的整個規劃編裁那我們著重的是部落的觀點跟聲音的呈現那當然在這個裡面可能我們的記者的整個人員的配置還有整個新聞的中心的運用這個部分"},{"start":24275.692,"end":24292.157,"text":"我們東部、中部、南部新聞中心的整個戰力的展現在往後我們會再做加強,謝謝。好,那我們支出的部分齁,我們在場只有張志榮委員齁,張委員你有要改組決議嗎?沒有要改齁?"},{"start":24312.122,"end":24330.089,"text":"所以我們全部凍結100萬好不好?你要專案報告還是書面?我知道我一個一個處理好不好?不然我跟你講好不好?"},{"start":24333.973,"end":24348.545,"text":"好 那個 陸委員 那我們就全部啦 我們就並案處理好不好還是你要說一下 你先說一下我記得我上個禮拜五有在等董事長來 有沒有等到人董事長不知道跑去哪裡"},{"start":24350.974,"end":24372.078,"text":"報告委員,我前幾天去部落協調一個會議對,可是你們也沒有派代表來有嗎?我們執行長有聯絡辦公室是嗎?對對對那我是覺得說今天還有再過去,謝謝那沒有關係,那我們還是維持凍結,然後再看看一邊處理好不好就是我這邊是百分之二十啊,啊百分之十二十"},{"start":24373.866,"end":24399.231,"text":"主席,他現在說了,說他現在兩個一樣,你猜判啊。那我們,那個,齁,我們這樣子啦,並案處理,我們凍結兩百萬啦,專案報告之後,時刻通知啦,好不好?齁,好啦,好不好,我們就這樣啦,好不好,好,好,謝謝大家,好,好,不要,政務,"},{"start":24410.616,"end":24410.636,"text":"三、繼續審"},{"start":24446.265,"end":24446.405,"text":"一、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":24458.581,"end":24458.601,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":24494.909,"end":24523.092,"text":"好,來,那經過我們剛剛大家協商的決議齁,我們就全部齁,凍結300萬,然後呢,專案報告之後時可動之。那再來,主決議有沒有問題?不是啊,你們要對麥克風說一下。報告主席沒有?蛤?有沒有問題?好。來,那稍微再宣布、宣告一下,這個要凍在公務預算裡面的。這是要凍。欸,剛剛那個是?"},{"start":24525.069,"end":24533.154,"text":"163163163到165是動五千萬,這個162呢?動結三千,書面報告這書面報告,三千萬是書面報告,這五千萬是專案報告,就是在公務裡面,這專案報告,這書面報告"},{"start":24549.523,"end":24558.127,"text":"來各位同仁,現在我們宣告一下剛剛的162案凍結3000萬順便報告的還有163案、164案、165案全部凍結5000萬的然後要專案報告時可凍資的那我們必須剛剛有問主計了我們必須要凍結在公務預算裡面好不好,我在這邊宣告一下"},{"start":24574.855,"end":24581.138,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查九、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、"},{"start":24604.192,"end":24608.018,"text":"委員提案第三至十五案併案處理凍結兩千萬,向本會提出專案報告,今同以後使得凍資。第二目"},{"start":24613.922,"end":24617.823,"text":"第43、49、50案徹案。第45、54、55案改組決議。第16至22、24至42、44、46至48、50、51、62案委員提案合併處理。併案凍結300萬元向本會提出專案報告金同佑使的凍資。第23案"},{"start":24643.364,"end":24662.271,"text":"全案一百二十萬全案凍結經提專案報告後適合凍資。第五十三案、五十六案至六十一案保留。第三目,第七十案測案。第六十七、七十二、七十七案改組決議。"},{"start":24663.959,"end":24666.562,"text":"第63至66、68至69、71、73至76、78、81案文體案合併處理凍結500萬元向本會提出專案報告後此的凍資。第79案、80案保留"},{"start":24680.742,"end":24686.906,"text":"四、繼續審第99案徹案、第89、92、95案改組決議、第82至88、90、91、93、94、96至98、100案委員提案合併處理、凍結200萬元向本會提出專案報告金同佑使的動之。五、繼續審"},{"start":24707.096,"end":24715.381,"text":"第109案、118案改組決議。第101案至108案、110案至117、119至124案委員提案合併處理,凍結兩千萬元。向本會提出專案報告後,今同又始的動之。第六目預算照列"},{"start":24736.257,"end":24754.361,"text":"第一百二十五案改併入第一目一般行政併案凍結兩千萬元提出專案報告經同賀使者動之。第七目第一百二十六案改組決議預算照列。第八目第一費金委員無相關提案預算照列。第九目"},{"start":24758.717,"end":24761.8,"text":"第140、160案改組決議第127-132、134-139、141-152、155、157-159、162-173、176-177、179-184委員提案合併處理並案凍結三千萬金像本會提出專案報告同意厚實的凍資"},{"start":24784.878,"end":24811.069,"text":"第一百三十三、一百三十五案併案減列三百萬一百三十三、一百三十五一五三我抱歉第一百三十三、一百五十三案併案減列三百萬第一百五十四案減列兩百萬第一百五十六案併案客戶扶植經費凍結40%"},{"start":24817.324,"end":24824.21,"text":"161提專案報告後使得動之,均同又使得動之。第161案、174案、175案、178案保留。第162案凍結3000萬元,提書面報告後使得動之。第163至165案凍結5000萬,均向本會提專案報告,均同又使得動之。"},{"start":24843.752,"end":24849.978,"text":"第十目,第185、193、194改組決議。185-192、195-200案委員提案合併處理,凍結200萬元,向本會提出專案報告,經同誘使得凍資。兩千萬。抱歉。第十目是兩千萬。第十目凍結兩千萬,向本會提出專案報告後使得凍資。"},{"start":24867.591,"end":24874.499,"text":"第11目委員無相關提案預算照列。主決議第201案、204案、216案修正5字通過。202、203、205至215、217至224案照案通過。"},{"start":24885.819,"end":24906.445,"text":"原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心單位預算稅入部分第123案委員提案併案處理增列300萬元稅出部分第一幕第456案委員提案併案處理凍結200萬元向本會提出專案報告金銅鑰匙的凍資"},{"start":24908.322,"end":24930.748,"text":"第二、第七、九、十一、十二案委員提案合併處理,凍結15%向本會提出專案報告後時的凍資。第八、第十案保留。第三、委員無相關提案預算照列。第四、委員無相關提案預算照列。主決議第十三十四案照案通過。"},{"start":24933.598,"end":24961.873,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金附屬單位基金協商結論業務收入第一案改組決議業務成本與費用第二至六案委員提案合併處理整目凍結一千萬元向本會提出書面報告後使得動之。主決議第七八案照案通過財產法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會預算收入"},{"start":24963.852,"end":24990.489,"text":"預算照列。業務支出第一案不處理。主決議第二、三案照案通過。財團發展原住民族文化事業基金會預算案收入預算照列。支出第一至五案委員提案合併處理。凍結三百萬向本會提出專案報告經同誘使的凍資。主決議第六案照案通過。"},{"start":24993.12,"end":24999.864,"text":"報告完畢156案,總金額是2740,並案處理動40%"},{"start":25047.933,"end":25055.916,"text":"請問各位委員,有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過,沒有提案的部分預算均照列,請問有依?"},{"start":25057.637,"end":25076.128,"text":"好,沒有異議通過然後本次通過之決議文字授權主席及議事人員整理然後114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分審查完均你據審查報告含附財政委員會"},{"start":25080.101,"end":25095.118,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金——原住民族綜合發展基金以審查完均,擬均審查報告含附財政委員會提報院會"},{"start":25098.441,"end":25120.71,"text":"114年度財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及原住民族語言研究發展基金會預算案均已審查完略。四、稅務預算確定後分別擬據審查報告提報運會公決,然後不須交黨團協商並推行本席張昭及委員紅路與運會討論時做補充說明。"},{"start":25125.205,"end":25133.73,"text":"然後,原住民族委員會預算的部分已審查完畢,相關人員可以先行離席。"},{"start":25155.137,"end":25179.146,"text":"那我們繼續處理不當黨產委員會那我們現在開始審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會部分,其一並宣讀預算數及委員提案,宣讀完畢後再進行協商。"},{"start":25183.096,"end":25183.116,"text":"不當黨產"},{"start":25204.586,"end":25231.108,"text":"處理委員會我們稅出的部分我們第一幕行政一般行政我們整幕來處理那請問各位委員有沒有意見來許委員本席針對不當黨產第一幕第一幕的部分兩案第二案跟第三案"},{"start":25233.442,"end":25252.695,"text":"第二案、第三案的精神意義差不多就是現在不當黨產處理委員會已經成立8年多了業務量已經逐漸的減少相關訴訟也在收尾階段"},{"start":25253.792,"end":25271.787,"text":"所以,應該適時朝向縮減人力目標邁進。但是,不當房產處理委員會在114年的預算反而比113年增加了189萬6千元,其中單是人事費用就增加了117萬元。"},{"start":25274.609,"end":25276.13,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金—原住民族綜合發展基金。四、繼續審"},{"start":25297.999,"end":25320.518,"text":"編列有3232萬6千元我們凍結這項預算的15%等到不當黨產處理委員會向立法院內政委員會提出專案報告後而且經過同意之後才可以凍支第三案是在一般行政第一幕的一般行政項下的業務費編列了795萬2千元"},{"start":25324.341,"end":25338.618,"text":"所以我們凍結這項業務費預算30%也是等不當黨產處理委員會向內政委員會提出專案報告我們視情況有同意之後才能動之以上兩案謝謝"},{"start":25344.326,"end":25366.35,"text":"謝謝主席、主委、各位委員、大家午安本席對於不當常常委員會提出第一案第一幕有關於一般行政費用減列300萬本席主要意見剛跟徐信義委員的差不多黨產會從2016年成立到現在已經8年多的時間促轉會都已經只有成立4年到2022年就已經結束了"},{"start":25373.071,"end":25400.203,"text":"我上次也跟主委討論過其實現在黨產會該查的都查了最後訴訟也在結尾的部分所以主委自己本身也說過如果法令上允許的話你也同意不當產產委員會應該要落日本席看了我們的預算書發現說不當產產委員會現在進行最重要的業務就是訴訟業務可是大家知道嗎訴訟業務一年才花多少錢才花200多萬"},{"start":25401.664,"end":25427.501,"text":"所以本席要講的是你一個不動長山委員會最主要的訴訟業務一年大概花250萬好再給你宣傳費300萬好了可是你居然創造了一個500、5000萬的一個組織來浪費人民的納稅錢那現在而且編制是25個人所以每一個人需要花人民納稅錢200萬所以本席希望的是說應該"},{"start":25429.942,"end":25443.37,"text":"這個不當財產委員會雖然為訴訟的主體可是如果不當財產委員會消失了以後或落日了以後可以由行政院當成是訴訟主體所以本席在這邊當然需要說第一個114年的預算編列了"},{"start":25447.813,"end":25472.754,"text":"5,250萬,比112年的4,190萬還多了1,000多萬,尤其我們過去黨產會預算執行力不佳,大概都八成左右。所以希望說這個主委要給我們一個清楚的解釋,為什麼要編列這麼樣的一個組織,還有本席有做一個組決議。雖然說這次今天開委員會的時候,大家對你算是希望給你一個機會自己來"},{"start":25474.595,"end":25503.208,"text":"來做一個未來的一個的想法讓本席我們還是希望你未來自己有一個處理的一個方式以上謝謝好謝謝來徐委員謝謝主席本席在第一幕的部分有提出兩個案子主要是因為我想就是誠如剛剛兩位委員都提到了嘛現在的這黨產會的業務量已經越來越少了那可是在不管是在這個"},{"start":25504.168,"end":25529.698,"text":"水電費、一般事務費增加幅度,包括水電費增加28%。一般事務費增加6.58%。既然業務量一直在減少,為什麼這個部分還要再增加?本席提出第五案希望減劣6萬元,第六案是減劣20萬元以上。"},{"start":25535.941,"end":25559.359,"text":"主席、各位委員剛才幾位委員提到的問題我想我綜合答覆一下有關於本會的業務可能委員有委員的了解但是我跟委員報告一下我們的調查業務還在繼續在進行我們手上還是有調查中的案件只是不方便在這邊說明"},{"start":25560.76,"end":25587.803,"text":"另外就是說訴訟的部分。我們手上有80個案件。應該是說,我想行政院也沒有哪一個部會有像我們這麼多的案件。委外去找律師當然是一個途徑,成如剛才張委員說的,一年花了200萬律師費。表示說,我們包括連聘用律師,我們都非常的減省,律師費也非常低。"},{"start":25588.864,"end":25616.382,"text":"我們的對照常常一個案件就幾百萬可是我們給我們律師不到十萬也因此許多訴訟準備的工作是我們內部的成員我們內部有研究員我們共同大家來共同來努力等於是跟律師協力不是說像一般的公家單位說那我請律師我就把所有的案件我都丟給律師律師是從頭去從出庭到案子結束有個判決拿來跟機關報告我們不是這個樣子"},{"start":25617.574,"end":25640.081,"text":"我們是其實主要的這個內容訴訟的內容因為很龐雜大家也都知道我們調查的業務是50年前的70年前的事情這些龐雜的檔案只要法院有任何的問題律師沒有辦法處理是我們自己要處理我們要去準備這些訴訟資料我們舉個例子來說好了婦聯會的案子"},{"start":25641.736,"end":25652.963,"text":"七年只審附屬負稅組織案後面還有一個不當取得財產案其實是兩個大案子七年只審附屬負稅組織案一個案子在台北高等行政法院開庭開27次"},{"start":25656.905,"end":25684.607,"text":"開27次那種龐大的從民國41年、42年到現在的事情從業務、人事、財務的內容我們要從所有檔案裡面去尋找只要法官今天講說A、講B、講C恐怕那個A、B、C共一個就是一般的訴訟案件的可能幾倍的那個資料量所以律師不可能幫我們去處理這個問題"},{"start":25686.158,"end":25707.524,"text":"也因此我們還是要很忙碌的去應對這些訴訟案件那我也很希望說法院能夠趕快把這案子結掉可是就剛舉那個例子就一個婦聯會的破嘴組織案弄了七年現在絕大多數的案件都還在進行中真正確定的案子只有兩到三個我們手上還有幾十個"},{"start":25708.724,"end":25734.061,"text":"所以,恐怕是有一些誤解。剛剛講的律師費在第二幕喔?我們現在是討論第一幕,是不是先回答第二幕?因為提到說我的人力配置的問題,所以我在解釋這件事情。就是我們請的律師不可能幫我們處理我們現在訴訟的需要。律師是幫我們去出庭,我們還要派人去看著,看到底法官現在問的問題,因為很多事實面,那必須跟委員報告一下,我很負責說,"},{"start":25735.68,"end":25757.873,"text":"到目前為止縱然有法院曾經判我們敗訴過但是沒有任何一個法院去質疑我們的事實調查到目前為止沒有任何一個法院質疑我們的事實調查縱然在法律的解釋有不同的意見甚至法院裡面對同一個有關於黨產會的訴訟的問題法律問題不同法官有不同的見解"},{"start":25759.959,"end":25778.218,"text":"眾來是這樣子,但是我們法院到目前為止沒有質疑過我們的事實調查。我想這個就是說我們長期間我們去調查,而且我們很審慎。這是來回應委員剛剛指教的說,我們人力是不是可以把它弄少一點,那我必須在這邊跟委員拜託一下。"},{"start":25780.594,"end":25803.694,"text":"這個準備的工作還是很重,然後訴訟並不是說要完結了,絕大多數的訴訟都還在,還不到終段。所以你們人事費用增加,你們又再多聘人?不是不是不是,這個原額已經從5、6年前就是這個原額了,沒有增加,增加是因為調薪,調薪的準備。"},{"start":25804.622,"end":25824.591,"text":"所以你增加的這117萬是條性?是,條性只有3%那個就是正常的條性因為我所有的人力全部沒有編制內的我全部是約聘人力所有人事分是編在這裡然後明年因為行政院有準備所以這個主計總書那邊給我們先把這個人事的這個條性的部分先編進去好,林委員"},{"start":25826.432,"end":25843.445,"text":"既然剛剛主委有講到大部分的人力都是,你說全部的人力都是月聘喔?對,只有我是一個編制內的政務官。所以連副主委、專委全部都是月聘?那這些人的背景,你們當初的考核跟查核有沒有一定的透明的機制?"},{"start":25845.171,"end":25867.668,"text":"考核哪個部分?我們的副主委是劉英的碩士,我們的專人委員是劉發的博士。這個部分是不是提供給委員會做一下參考?比如說你的人力,因為你剛剛講連你的內部人員都要去協助打官司。這件事情當然我們都很清楚,而黨產會本來就是高度政治性非常敏感的東西。"},{"start":25869.869,"end":25891.057,"text":"我們是相對年輕世代,我們也沒什麼包袱。但憑良心講,我們都希望這件事既然要做,它就必須要有客觀跟中立性。所以說這些的名單,還有他們的一些學術專才的背景,我是覺得我們應該有一個清楚了解的必要。是不是可以請委員這邊來做說明跟提供,好不好?"},{"start":25896.502,"end":25899.185,"text":"剛剛本席有提到我提的第三案"},{"start":25901.023,"end":25922.742,"text":"因為主委您上任的時候您也有提到希望黨產會能夠提早關門這是你提到的而且您也提到說在機關裁測或改組之後相關的訴訟可以由承受的業務單位業務機關或上級機關為被告機關所以不會有案件中斷審理的問題"},{"start":25924.423,"end":25941.023,"text":"所以我們覺得這個黨場會只是階段性的任務編制嘛,所以是不是可以提出相關的縮編規劃?這個我在第三案的時候,我就是要請你提出這個相關縮編規劃,之後我們才能解讀。我繼續我剛剛的說明,謝謝委員長。"},{"start":25944.647,"end":25958.844,"text":"我們的訴訟的內容坦白說不是行政單位有辦法處理的因為這些檔案他們以前都沒有接觸過包括我們現在要把我們的檔案轉譯弄成比較一般人看得懂"},{"start":25959.525,"end":25959.545,"text":"二、繼續審"},{"start":25981.275,"end":25984.818,"text":"主委,我剛剛有問到一個問題,其實你沒有回答我。112年的決算數是多少錢,你知道嗎?"},{"start":26008.223,"end":26020.077,"text":"我剛有講4190萬就以來就您剛剛特別講如果你每年給你增加3%的公務人員的費用110才大概給你一年增加200萬好了你為什麼100"},{"start":26024.134,"end":26039.724,"text":"114年要編掉到5250萬,要增加1000多萬。這個超出了大家所能預料的部分,就是我一開始第一步講的。你112年的決算數的時候,你執行只有八成嘛,八成多嘛。那你在114年的時候還多編了1000多萬到5250萬。那我請教你113年你預計的決算數是多少?"},{"start":26046.847,"end":26075.401,"text":"你這樣多變了一千多萬我跟委員報告一下今年到10月底我們的執行率已經到85%到年底的時候預計要到90%那為什麼去年會比較少因為從疫情因為少的部分是活動的部分那我們的預算數一直都不多我們預算數從我來第一年到現在都是五千萬左右"},{"start":26076.421,"end":26102.523,"text":"五千、五千多一點大概都是這樣,也沒有什麼增加那有增加就是剛剛提到的,因為調薪所以往上增那減少的話,可以看到去年、前年我們執行都比較少少的原因是公開活動幾乎不能辦我辦幾場研討會、座談會我可能就要一場比如說五十萬、三十萬那我有兩場、三場不能辦,我就去掉一百萬一百萬就是我才五千萬啊"},{"start":26106.998,"end":26128.838,"text":"對,所以我只要有幾個這種事情,比如說疫情期間我們就真的公開活動都不能辦,那這樣子我的資金就降下來,而且看起來好像差很多。去年前年,去年前年還疫情受到影響,有些人就不願意出門,不願意來參加活動,那我不能勉強去辦活動,我辦活動沒有人來,那你辦什麼活動?"},{"start":26132.967,"end":26146.454,"text":"當然我們還是用網路嘛,那網路的話我們就不用去租場地嘛,然後很多相關費用就不用支出了。所以我就是已經就整理把錢節省下來,意思是這樣子。那因為我們的總額很少嘛。"},{"start":26160.485,"end":26165.227,"text":"我們這個不多啦,我們第二幕一起處理好不好,我們一起好不好,等一下一起處理好不好。"},{"start":26182.402,"end":26182.823,"text":"二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審二、繼續審"},{"start":26206.437,"end":26226.663,"text":"各國民情不同,處理方式也各異,成立8年多已經累積許多在地化的經驗,不需要覺得外國的月亮比較圓,所以我們希望一方面朝向縮編及解散方向來辦理,那這個出國的費用我們全數減劣。以上,謝謝。徐議員"},{"start":26233.211,"end":26259.477,"text":"針對剛剛提到那個就是出國的費用40萬5千我有上網去查了一下就是我們黨產會在111年考察西班牙在112年考察德國那都是主委跟研究員吳靜安兩位出國嘛那我看了一下你們的摘要跟目的跟結論我現在有畫黃線的地方就是一樣的地方"},{"start":26260.731,"end":26286.967,"text":"就是一樣的地方所以你就可以看得出來幾乎都一樣只是差在國家的不同而已那假如這種摘要跟這種報告出來的話表示有沒有去看這個國家其實沒有太大的差別嘛因為就只是改改一下哪個國家而已所以我認為本期在這個地方也是提出要這個簡列42萬5千就是百分之百"},{"start":26288.14,"end":26292.623,"text":"然後另外在這個律師費的部分就是在第13案的地方就是剛剛雖然說主委您有提到說律師費你們已經算是很少了不過依我們一般大家的認知就覺得說其實黨產會主要的業務已經越來越縮減了那是不是還需要編列這麼多的律師費所以本席是希望能夠簡列150萬元以上"},{"start":26325.404,"end":26328.775,"text":"不是,我們大家協商一下好不好。"},{"start":26336.594,"end":26357.884,"text":"四、繼續審加到會議費一百萬加會議費一百萬加到人事繳款費三百萬其實我們的居國報告每一份都超過二十頁好啦直接那個啦那個不要再出國了啦我跟你講第一幕你們覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":26361.125,"end":26361.145,"text":"總共4600萬,邊5250萬,邊600萬"},{"start":26384.601,"end":26386.004,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":27828.024,"end":27837.947,"text":"來啦各位我看到現在大家都還沒有辦法有結論啦我們是不是全案保留然後送協商啦好不好"},{"start":27860.166,"end":27873.105,"text":"各位,我們也只剩這幾個人,我們也討論不出來什麼。所以,我跟你講,各位,我還是一樣,反正這個……"},{"start":27878.96,"end":27895.987,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會部分因為大家沒有共識所以我們還是保留送財政委員會好不好"},{"start":27899.607,"end":27910.214,"text":"預算提案的部分我們保留本日議程處理完畢現在休息11月27日禮拜三繼續開會剛開會開這麼久我們提出那麼多的問題"},{"start":27930.62,"end":27936.941,"text":"主席不能這樣子啦,我們大家開會花那麼多時間,我們都反對勒。主席不能這樣子啦,大家開會花那麼多時間,你不能懲罰來開會的人說來開會的人的意見不能不算意見啊。"},{"start":27961.067,"end":27963.429,"text":"對阿,你這樣子來開會了就變笨蛋了阿你如果不表決,那你就決議嗎?剛剛講去年動300,它都可以運作嗎?所以我們今年300、400,今年增加1100所以表示並不會影響他們的運作,也不會影響到人事費阿"},{"start":27988.283,"end":27989.263,"text":"三、四百"},{"start":28038.64,"end":28038.66,"text":"總表決"},{"start":28086.442,"end":28091.244,"text":"對阿 趙偉 趙偉 等一下 趙偉我們先 這個我們案子還是要處理啦我們都等那麼久了處理一下吧我都已經宣佈了就三會了沒有 那個三會啦 我們剛剛就反對啦禮拜三繼續開會"},{"start":28234.127,"end":28235.828,"text":"我們都用麥克風喊反對了我們用麥克風協商啊簡略400啦好不好啊然後統動多少你們可以決定啦"},{"start":28263.455,"end":28263.475,"text":"一、繼續審"},{"start":28474.027,"end":28497.2,"text":"那個徐清穎委員徐清穎委員你說的是要用哪一用哪一個那個這樣子啦剛剛昭偉主席說每一幕找一條來表決嘛那我們說兩幕我們就只找一條剛好那一條他有簡略也有凍結就照第七案嘛"},{"start":28498.919,"end":28520.654,"text":"第七案,是不是?對,那因為紐許廷委員是主題案人,所以我們希望他馬上過來了,他主持協調會現在正走來的路上。不是啦,我跟你講好不好,張志榮委員在這裡啦,我們就用張志榮委員的案啦,好不好?"},{"start":28522.146,"end":28542.515,"text":"對啦,第八案,我沒有張志倫,我們就用你的案啦,好不好?那我們現在就反你那個徐宇貞委員還在嘛,好不好?那個徐宇貞委員在洗手間有啦,他在啦,對啦,好不好?"},{"start":28543.979,"end":28560.304,"text":"那我們就用第八案處理嘛,好不好?不是啦,你剛剛說第一幕找一個,第二幕找一個嘛那我們說第七案,他剛好有簡略跟凍結嘛他現在表決了"},{"start":28571.533,"end":28579.269,"text":"欸好啦我們就好不好就處理你的案好不好來啦我們支持張志榮委員的提案的"},{"start":28582.79,"end":28602.132,"text":"主席說第七案。支持張志倫委員的第八案,因為你人在現場,要處理你的啦,好不好?有這樣的規定嗎?對啊,我們內政就是不照去處理啊。那如果這樣的話,你第二幕表他的,第一幕表我的好了。"},{"start":28602.472,"end":28626.543,"text":"阿你不是說我本來說兩目一案是因為他有檢列也有動結阿他不在阿他不在我們就不能處理阿所以如果不要的話那我們就檢列表張志倫的凍結表我的嘛好不好好不好第三案跟第八案第三案跟第八案是不是好不好好阿好阿來那來"},{"start":28631.838,"end":28639.6,"text":"第一幕的第三案支持徐欣穎委員的請舉手好,三個反對的兩個然後第二幕的第八案我們支持張志榮委員的請舉手好,三個然後反對的"},{"start":28663.276,"end":28664.097,"text":"主決議有沒有問題就這樣通過"},{"start":28685.963,"end":28692.848,"text":"第三案是李柏毅?不是啦,第三案他是說中央報告,先論結論"},{"start":28718.994,"end":28721.255,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案有關不但單場處理委員會單位預算協商結論"},{"start":28745.033,"end":28772.051,"text":"經過表決,第一目第三案,贊成三,反對二,贊成多數。第二目第八案,贊成三,反對二,贊成多數。通過主決議,事項二十七至三十案,詐案通過。報告完畢。好,請問各位委員,有委員提言的部分,照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過,沒有提言的部分,預算經照列,請問有異議?好,通過。"},{"start":28773.396,"end":28792.616,"text":"然後本市通過之決議文資授權主席及議事人員整理114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員部分審查完畢凝聚審查報告含附財政委委員會。然後,好本日議程處理完畢,現在休息11月27日星期三繼續開會。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}