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謝謝院長我想幾點第一個我們認同剛剛院長所裁示的任何的預算案其實包括法案也是那今天我們碰到要審議的協商的是附屬單位預算那營業跟非營業的部分那還是要以委員會中心主義所以很同意剛剛院長說的我們就不要在協商的場域去推翻或去增加委員會沒有的提案這是第一個"},{"start":2478.632,"end":2507.35,"text":"都遵從委員會的審查結果這第一點第二點呢確實是因為時限的關係事實上現在已經年底了啦所以說我也瞭解了過去確實往歷也是這樣如果說在這個時間壓得很緊的狀況之下確實往歷上大家也基本上都同意用書面報告來取代制那也不會因為是書面報告就限縮了這個"},{"start":2508.371,"end":2510.413,"text":"但如果有特別的議案是大家朝野各案上是同意說這個重要到"},{"start":2534.492,"end":2534.672,"text":"國民黨團請發言"},{"start":2552.542,"end":2570.117,"text":"委員長,我剛才也對於說委員會中心主義,吳士耀幹事長這個主張,基本上我們也是贊成。這個別委員如果他的提案,他堅持說就是要做一個專案報告,而不是書面報告的話,我們認為就是要尊重個別的委員。"},{"start":2571.218,"end":2587.449,"text":"所以基本上我們認為說如果個別委員很堅持的案子這就是一個特例就是一個例外那這部分我們就要尊重他就一定不能用書面就呆過所以基本上我們最後當然還是尊重院長的才識以上謝謝"},{"start":2588.953,"end":2589.013,"text":"主席"},{"start":2609.417,"end":2612.458,"text":"現在目前113年度附屬單位預算案我們通案、協商、提案、彙整表都在各位的手上我們序號第一號主決議請問各位"},{"start":2639.079,"end":2665.112,"text":"文字修正,請問各位黨團幹部跟總召有沒有,召集委員有沒有寶貴意見?在後面來,在後面,併在這裡,第一個是賴思寶的,第二位是林益君的,對對對對好沒關係等一下議事處人員再發到每個黨團幹部跟列席的召集委員手上"},{"start":2667.605,"end":2668.286,"text":"主席請問一下因為那個字有點小"},{"start":2698.375,"end":2706.641,"text":"原件請衛生福利部於一個月內邀集全國六家公司利益醫學中心相關主管"},{"start":2711.573,"end":2720.06,"text":"相關主管、機關及團體、研議、全面慢性處方先釋出逗點以其帶動。"},{"start":2738.812,"end":2739.032,"text":"營業預算的經濟組"},{"start":2774.132,"end":2775.833,"text":"在換場期間可不可以詢問一下?"},{"start":2779.45,"end":2807.902,"text":"對,我們進入因為現在換場的時間想請教一下院長因為我們黨團因為洪森翰委員他去轉換到行政部門所以我們有地補的王逸川委員那不曉得這個人事作業什麼時候王逸川委員能夠來安排他的就職好不好,請告訴我們一下沒有,我們都不清楚包括他當事人也還沒有收到"},{"start":2810.789,"end":2829.452,"text":"對,但大概時間上,因為他要趕快,盡快把這個時間,對,越快越好,因為他當事人也還沒有,我剛剛跟他見面,他還沒收到。所以是不是等一下會後,好,跟我說一下,對,跟黨團,因為我們非常關心。"},{"start":2832.479,"end":2856.232,"text":"謝謝,各位黨團幹部,各位召集委員,我們現在協商113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算經濟委員會營業部分,包括臺灣糖業股份有限公司,臺糖的劉代理董事長,熱情歡迎,第二位我們臺灣中油公司的方董事長,熱情歡迎,第三位臺灣電力公司的曾董事長,"},{"start":2857.643,"end":2882.875,"text":"熱情歡迎第四位臺灣自來水的李董事長熱情歡迎現在我們來先討論臺灣糖業股份有限公司部分我們先從第一案開始討論請問各位委員針對第一案有沒有寶貴意見改組決議有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見好我們通過我們現在進入第二案改組決議"},{"start":2885.812,"end":2910.72,"text":"黃國昌委員提案,有沒有寶貴意見?沒有意見,好,通過第三案。該組決有沒有寶貴意見?沒有意見,好,通過第四案、第五案。請歡迎各位有沒有寶貴意見?黃國昌委員兩位所提出來的。欸,院長請問到底幾案?第四、第五。第四不是我的案子吧?我知道,並案討論,科目相同,並案討論。"},{"start":2919.786,"end":2941.018,"text":"其實就如同我在提案上面所講的內容因為台糖股份有限公司之前他們的前董事長吳乃仁賤賣台糖的資產讓國家受到的損害1億1796萬如果加上法定遲延利息的話"},{"start":2943.68,"end":2967.529,"text":"如果加上法定職員利息是多少錢啊?那個台堂今天有人來嗎?到台堂,因為本來的金額是一千一億一千七百九十六萬九千九百二十二元嘛那同時要到從十至九十九年六月十六日止至清晨日為止按週年利率百分之五計算之利息嘛"},{"start":2968.666,"end":2986.994,"text":"阿你如果加上從99年到目前為止的利息算起來也很驚人阿到目前為止你們強制執行真的滿足了金額可能連付遲延利息都不夠阿那這個案子事實上從上一屆國會的時候就有委員在追阿"},{"start":2988.376,"end":3014.674,"text":"那很奇怪啊 你們去強制執行的時候最近一次去執行無乃人的錢執行的結果325548那感覺好像是強制執行不到財產但問題是很奇怪啊按照我們大家所得到的資訊台堂的前董事長無乃人過得很好啊"},{"start":3016.622,"end":3021.944,"text":"可以去club搖宇宙大爆炸啊出入都有車子啊然後一天到晚可以去豪華的餐廳然後沒有錢可以賠你們台堂真的有認真追償嗎?"},{"start":3037.939,"end":3060.52,"text":"這是提這個案子最主要的理由因為從上一屆的國會就委員開始在追嘛我知道那時候陳家華委員就不斷在追這個案子阿但你們強制執行出來的結果現在到底還有多少錢沒有賠阿接下來打算要怎麼辦拿債權憑證掛在台糖公司的牆壁上面當紀念品嗎"},{"start":3066.153,"end":3076.83,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召發言,接著蔡易瑜書記長麻煩請台灣糖業公司劉代理董事長回應我們黃總召的發言因為另外一位廖先生還不在,請"},{"start":3078.187,"end":3091.799,"text":"委員長、各位委員,台中公司做一個說明,有關黃委員所提的,我們台中公司在109年申請強制執行,然後在112年,台中地方法院有發給債權憑證,總共的賠償金額是1億1796萬,如果加計歷期到目前為止是1億2300萬,"},{"start":3100.687,"end":3125.666,"text":"到目前為止已經有執行的財務人的收藏所得大概是3973萬大概是佔比差不多四分之一那剩下的部分那其中那個3973萬的部分其中涉及到吳謙董事長的部分是有746萬7千餘元那剩下的那個大概還有剩下大概8千萬元的這個"},{"start":3127.788,"end":3128.308,"text":"臺灣公司臺灣公司"},{"start":3156.016,"end":3157.837,"text":"針對廖先祥委員這個案子,今年編的預算是高達4513萬"},{"start":3182.486,"end":3191.012,"text":"昨年的決算數只有941萬3千元,為什麼增加的幅度會那麼多,增編了3千5百多萬,實際上支出有那麼多嗎?"},{"start":3196.648,"end":3196.868,"text":"同意檢列一百萬"},{"start":3222.568,"end":3227.952,"text":"前面的部分是因為原來預估113年度會有一些這個相關的訴訟的一個法律事務費用那特別是針對農業工程規劃設計的這個還有灌溉排農路設施還有整地的這些規劃費用那這部分是有這個金額會比較大一些"},{"start":3247.084,"end":3272.462,"text":"謝謝劉代理總長說明 請蔡議員 蘇議長請發言針對這個提案五的部分那我想剛剛台談也有做出說明基本上這幾年他們是有持續在做強制執行那強制執行基本上就是訴訟程序的一個最後一環嘛那他有持續在做的話那應該不應該把強制執行的結果當作現在我們要去凍結他預算的一個理由謝謝蔡議長 黃國昌總長請二次發言請"},{"start":3277.325,"end":3296.203,"text":"為什麼會提凍結預算?就是我們認為台湯根本沒有認真去進行強制執行嗎?你有認真進行強制執行,沒有認真進行強制執行,對於結果當然會有差別啊。然後你消極的沒有去進行,又掛一張債權憑證,那是全體納稅人的錢欸。你們有向執行法院申請命債務人報告財產狀態嗎?"},{"start":3302.19,"end":3322.628,"text":"在務人民有履行之義務故不履行,在強制執行法上面的效果,有向執行法院要求申請嗎?過得那麼奢靡的生活,欠國家的錢不還,臺堂真的有認真的在追討,我就是認為臺堂沒有認真的在追討,所以才會提這個凍結案,這個案子,臺灣民眾黨黨團堅持,"},{"start":3336.247,"end":3352.952,"text":"這先保留嘛好那我們先保留我們進入第一回頭我們再來解釋我們先進入第2個案改組決議請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見好我們通過第7案我們改組決議請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見好我們通過第8案測案第9案請問一下改組決議各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":3365.02,"end":3392.578,"text":"沒有好我們通過第十案改組決議請問各位黨的幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有好通過組決議第十一案國民黨團謝依鳳請問各位有沒有寶貴意見暫通過第十二案謝依鳳委員所提有沒有寶貴意見沒有好謝謝我們通過第十三案各位有沒有寶貴意見沒有好謝謝通過第十四案"},{"start":3394.15,"end":3397.133,"text":"這案因為在我的選區齁那當時確實這一個港前農場這裡要出租給這個光電業那造成地方民眾的抗議那我記得我"},{"start":3422.04,"end":3422.34,"text":"各位黨內幹部"},{"start":3448.854,"end":3464.011,"text":"第17案沒有其他報告意見報告院長這個是台灣民眾黨黨團提的案子嘛那台堂願意在這邊表示這個態度我覺得也很好但也很簡單我們只要他三個月提書面報告而已嘛沒有強人所難啊"},{"start":3465.052,"end":3468.033,"text":"謝謝通過第18案主席有沒有意見?沒有意見好通過請問第19案各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見?"},{"start":3494.286,"end":3507.254,"text":"沒有好通過我們現在全部我們進入保留回頭第四案第五案我們休息三分鐘"},{"start":3599.807,"end":3625.496,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部重新開會現在針對台堂我們第四案第五案我們保留其餘就照剛才所審查的通過那接下來我們進入台灣中郵謝謝我們台堂的劉代理董事長謝謝請回好我們中郵的第二十案並委員會決議請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":3629.616,"end":3630.056,"text":"21.改組決議22.改組決議23.改組決議24.改組決議25.改組決議26.改組決議27.改組決議28.改組決議"},{"start":3658.8,"end":3669.153,"text":"我們簡列三千萬,國民黨黨團所提出,請問各位有沒有寶貴意見?好,請蔡易瑜蘇理長請發言"},{"start":3672.298,"end":3672.738,"text":"我們請國民黨團王宏威請發言"},{"start":3704.07,"end":3704.57,"text":"我們麻煩請中郵的方董事長請說明"},{"start":3732.143,"end":3757.609,"text":"是,就是我們同意簡列三千萬,原因就是說接下來請黃國昌總統請發言那個上面啊,你們編列的是九億六千三百四十萬嘛對吧我請教一下,到目前為止已經實現了有多少"},{"start":3758.706,"end":3779.747,"text":"我們截至10月份,10月份已經執行了7.46億,所以編了9億6千3百萬,執行到現在執行了7億4千萬,所以還有2億多,到年底你們覺得你們可以執行到多少?我們到年底預定執行9億3千萬左右,"},{"start":3782.172,"end":3797.719,"text":"會執行9億3千萬所以提案委員也很貼心嘛他精準的算到你們編了9億6千萬然後會執行到9億3千萬所以幫你們刪除3千萬提高你們的"},{"start":3799.107,"end":3825.86,"text":"的預算實現率是這樣嗎?不是,就是原委員提案是3減6千萬那我們跟委員溝通希望說不要3減那麼多按照我們預估的執行情形來3減我們同意這樣子好謝謝,大家也謝謝忠祐的說明我們27案就我們就同意減3千萬,好通過好28案,請問各位"},{"start":3827.244,"end":3832.588,"text":"黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見?沒有我們通過改組決議第29案改組決議有沒有寶貴意見?沒有我們通過第30案改組決議有沒有意見?沒有我們通過第31案改簡列3億5千萬請問各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見要"},{"start":3846.649,"end":3850.391,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3875.882,"end":3881.927,"text":"營業成本探勘費用我們編列了46億108年到111年最高決算數為11億近4年決算數實現率最高35%我們只簡列3億5000萬這可能太少不過沒有關係我們在這裡啊"},{"start":3904.889,"end":3905.77,"text":"因為在國外的探勘我們探勘活動或者是權益的併購那個"},{"start":3934.053,"end":3934.133,"text":"請問董事長"},{"start":3964.724,"end":3982.93,"text":"你們在對國外的探勘還是交易前後大概要花多少時間對一個個案的討論到所有資料的收集到最後能夠簽約能夠完成前後要花多少時間"},{"start":3985.581,"end":4013.193,"text":"每個礦區的情況不自相同不過流程都是一樣的也就是說有這麼一個機會之後我們必須跟他索取當地的一個已經存在的地質狀況的資料包括政策的資料包括礦區地底下的一些相關的資料拿回來以後我們要去做一些研判來研判這個油氣的運償量的估算"},{"start":4014.053,"end":4014.613,"text":"既然從頭到尾一年的時間算起來"},{"start":4044.6,"end":4069.351,"text":"這個中油的國際談判能力已經很強了包括選案包括過程的討論到最後確認一年的時間算是非常非常快了民間企業大概沒有像你們這樣的一個進度跟水準那既然是一年可以經過相當的討論那為什麼這麼急著要跟立法院要預算啊你們這個過程隨時可以來談嘛"},{"start":4073.188,"end":4101.911,"text":"但是你們連續不能長此以往從108年到現在不能把立法院不斷地給你們做空白授權所以啊 董事長本席建議你要從實編列不要這樣的空白授權服編尤其空白授權我們是完全不能同意跟接受所以所以在這裡啊我們再請這個"},{"start":4103.786,"end":4109.495,"text":"中遊在今年的12月底把今年確切的執行數發給各黨團"},{"start":4113.291,"end":4139.008,"text":"因為明年的部分我們還有很多預算在看114年度的部分我們可能會按照你比較實際執行的狀況再做最後的決定好不好那這個部分國民黨一向很善良之前那個3億5千萬但是以後這種空白授權的事情不要習慣性的向立法院來做這麼大的一個空白授權好不好"},{"start":4139.909,"end":4141.39,"text":"謝謝院長我只有一個簡單的問題編了46億1897萬到目前為止執行了多少預計到年底會執行多少"},{"start":4171.445,"end":4171.987,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4175.174,"end":4192.197,"text":"那麼我想兩個問題做個答覆首先對於這個預算動資率的情形那剛剛沒有錯但是在預算執行的部分我剛剛提到就是說其實每年的狀況不太一樣那麼以112年就是去年來講我們編的預算數是34.49億那麼實際112年執行數是38.25億"},{"start":4202.719,"end":4227.658,"text":"也就是說實際執行的情形在各年度的狀況不一所以它的執行率有可能會超過有可能會低這沒有錯那麼對於這個今年今年的部分我們預估會執行到44.62億大概以上兩個問題做說明不好意思喔我剛剛前面還有個問題就可能麻煩董事長那個"},{"start":4229.059,"end":4248.52,"text":"我剛剛說到現在執行多少?預計到12月底執行多少?那麼到10月份,10月份已經執行了20.12億所以等一下在接下來的11跟12月會再執行23億,您的意思是這樣嗎?是是是"},{"start":4252.529,"end":4271.005,"text":"各位黨團幹部還有沒有其他寶貴意見那剛才傅坤祺總召所提出來麻煩請忠祐到時候來配合辦理一個書面報告好不好好那我們第31案我們就檢列3億5千萬我們通過第32案主決議各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過第33、34、35我們是3案並案來處理"},{"start":4276.529,"end":4288.457,"text":"33改組決議,34檢列3000萬元,35案檢列2000萬元,請問各黨團幹部有沒有意見?沒有意見,好我們謝謝通過,我們進入第36案,我們檢列1⁄10,請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見?沒有啊,請張旗改完發言,請吳氏和幹長請準備"},{"start":4302.465,"end":4329.986,"text":"這筆預算非常重要是關係到我們三接的天然氣那這個我在兩個月前開了記者會揭露說這個工程有嚴重的問題特別是它的輸氣管品質有問題這牽扯到公共安全而且它的承包商全台灣最大的承包商中頂它不只材料有問題"},{"start":4331.001,"end":4357.39,"text":"他還假造了假報告那我開記者會的當天中友就發了聲明發了新聞稿說會改進啊隔一個禮拜我質詢了說質詢了經濟部長跟中友的董事長跟總經理你說你們會改啊那你們讓我辦公室已經來了三次了我的要求很簡單我是贊成三接要如期趕快要完工的"},{"start":4358.479,"end":4383.157,"text":"明年三年要完工,要不然台灣天然氣會斷氣。那我要求,可是有兩個地方一定要做,你公共安全一定要做到嘛。你們本來跟我講說你要一公里一公里那個慢慢改,我說不行,要全體去改,要不然更危險嘛,對不對。你們中友答應我的喔,你們說要改,對不對。所以第一個要改,第二個你要追究責任,我說你把報告拿過來,很清楚跟我交代。欸,過了兩個月了,到現在沒有欸。"},{"start":4384.537,"end":4403.153,"text":"你們一直找人來都空手到啊,出一支嘴公公的,連報告到現在都沒有到啊所以我提案,第一個,這36案跟43案是一起的這邊先簡略了十分之一的這個預算,43案要3減2億現在如果解決方案,有解決方案不是沒有啊"},{"start":4404.344,"end":4419.063,"text":"盡快這個禮拜內把第一個到底詳細的改善你進度到什麼地方了第二個你責任到底追到哪裡你現在不能只有祭典啊你這個廠商的責任追到哪裡如果這個可以做到的話我們再來看這個預算要怎麼處理好不好"},{"start":4424.713,"end":4447.062,"text":"有關這個三階保冷材的部分呢那麼公司這邊已經確定了要求承攬商不合格的材料就是要拆除重換我想這是承攬商來講他也同意這樣一個原則往這個方向去做處理首先跟委員做這個報告那另外就對於36案的部分"},{"start":4448.302,"end":4464.133,"text":"36萬的部分,這項費用的編列跟三接沒有關係這項費用的編列是使用在我們總公司的用人費用以及這個大樓的維運所需要的相關支出所使用那編列的預算是16.88億"},{"start":4466.494,"end":4471.621,"text":"我們到10月份來講已經動資了14.25億也就是說這些數目16.88億都會全數的資用所以如果刪除的話我們認為是不符合實際建議不要刪除這項費用"},{"start":4486.544,"end":4488.625,"text":"謝謝方董事長說明剛剛張啟凱委員提的資料到時候您再給張啟凱委員辦公室好嗎?好接下來請吳思瑤幹事長請發言"},{"start":4508.565,"end":4531.899,"text":"因為這個案子36案是要檢列十分之一的營業費用那43案是相關的是具體針對固定資產建設的費用檢列2億那事實上再看看齊凱委員民眾黨也有在55案主決議也有做具體的要求所以我是希望把它聚焦就是該是這個三接而且是保冷財的採購"},{"start":4532.739,"end":4533.1,"text":"本身沒有那麼直接啦"},{"start":4548.181,"end":4553.482,"text":"所以是不是可以請齊改委員同意因為36案營業費用是比較不相關那您剛剛所說的43案還有你們主決於55案請他就先保留等到他們的資料提供給您我們後續再來處理但是36案我想替他們來爭取一下因為畢竟項目不同營業就是可能會誤殺不同的項目誤殺無辜"},{"start":4573.507,"end":4573.787,"text":"案相關事宜"},{"start":4603.827,"end":4604.128,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4619.053,"end":4621.213,"text":"40、41、42都是針對固定資產投資計畫所提議的都是相類似我是建議說這三個案子是不是一起"},{"start":4646.798,"end":4648.739,"text":"做一個合併的考慮"},{"start":4672.278,"end":4673.058,"text":"那個40案的部分請教一下眾友你們編列的預算是528億4993萬對不對?"},{"start":4697.939,"end":4702.402,"text":"到目前為止執行多少?預定到年底執行多少?"},{"start":4711.747,"end":4729.856,"text":"我目前手頭上,我們到10月份已經執行了412億,那麼預定到年底可以執行大約470億左右,差不多也就是10%的範圍內。"},{"start":4732.702,"end":4741.941,"text":"所以就等於是這個提案要簡略的跟你們實際上面執行多了10%出來,完美的幫你們把那多的10%給刪掉了嗎?"},{"start":4744.322,"end":4772.736,"text":"這個部分我可以做個說明我想各位也了解中央公司在目前的狀態下財務狀況並不好負債比到10月來講我們到達93%因此在公司來講執行今年的預算也都採取緊縮的政策也就是說公立資產的投入也會做一些先後順序的"},{"start":4774.009,"end":4783.464,"text":"牌比,對於可以暫時不做的就先不做,因此在固定資產投資方面,執行數上來講,會有一些沒有執行的地方"},{"start":4791.894,"end":4817.548,"text":"那謝謝方董事長說明那各位幹部我們就40案跟41案我們並案簡列10%42案主決議我們就通過現在43案保留43案保留我們回頭再來討論第44案改為主決議大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見好我們通過第45案主決議大家有沒有意見"},{"start":4818.871,"end":4821.114,"text":"46.文字修正組決議47.文字修正組決議48.文字修正組決議49.文字修正組決議"},{"start":4831.448,"end":4845.258,"text":"各位有沒有意見?請吳思瑤幹事長請發言施久案因為委員的主決議裡頭是有要求你們寬列114年的預算那對於這樣的主決議因為這是涉及你們的預算的權利這個部分有辦法來執行嗎?請中遊請說明"},{"start":4854.945,"end":4874.099,"text":"這案是針對我們在南部新建一個大樓,那我們也是要把它加速進行,因此在預算上的部分我們也是朝這個方向去寬列。寬列但是要核實啊?是,是,是。好,OK。好,謝謝吳斯亞剛才,謝謝鐘友。好,大家有沒有其他的寶貴的意見?"},{"start":4876.049,"end":4876.109,"text":"主決議主決議"},{"start":4904.144,"end":4929.066,"text":"沒有通過第52案主決議,大家有沒有意見?沒有通過第53案,有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過第54主決議,有沒有意見?沒有,通過第55案主決議,有沒有意見?沒有,我們就通過第56案文字修正主決議,大家有沒有寶貴意見?沒有意見,通過第57案主決議,大家有沒有意見?"},{"start":4931.629,"end":4946.165,"text":"第58、59、60策案中油36、43我們保留謝謝中油公司接下來我們請台灣電力公司"},{"start":4968.031,"end":4991.273,"text":"謝謝台電曾董事長各位黨團幹部第61案測案第62案檢列50%請從台電請有沒有曾董事長意見要表示一下跟院長報告跟委員報告就是說我們這一筆預算原來的預算提送額度是1500萬"},{"start":4992.774,"end":5021.193,"text":"那我們依照執行的比例到目前為止我們大概執行的量大概已經到了三千五、三千六百萬預計到年底要支出這麼多錢那如果要減去百分之五十可能是真的沒辦法做到在實際的狀況之下我們請庭安委員、黃國昌總召請發言沒有啊前面我已經說過了嘛這個預算本來早就該省了嘛那沒有省嘛"},{"start":5022.165,"end":5024.566,"text":"預計到年底全年預計大概3500到3600萬"},{"start":5051.107,"end":5053.17,"text":"上位預計不會執行到大概我們就執行到八成左右"},{"start":5066.656,"end":5091.009,"text":"我們講具體的數字啦,董事長請你可以聽得懂我現在在釋放的善意啦我們現在是這樣子講,因為我現在要預估到年底,所以我估計起來大概3500到3600,還沒執行大概是900到1000所以大概是3500嘛,對不對?差不多所以簡略意義千萬可以你說今年嗎?對阿今年阿"},{"start":5093.735,"end":5121.412,"text":"不是啊,我董事長我是就事論事在跟你討論啊我必須要讓大家聽得懂我們為什麼提這個案子嘛這個案子我也在經濟委員會我直接提出質詢嘛台電公司有營運上面的困難經費拮据大家都了解嘛但我們立委在立法院裡面監督預算執行我也要問錢花到哪裡去嘛"},{"start":5124.313,"end":5144.233,"text":"結果你們花的錢給特定的綠色媒體人去做那些什麼有的沒有的廣告我看了以後就很火啊我們台電很有錢啊這種錢都花得下去"},{"start":5145.973,"end":5169.413,"text":"所以我才會要求要減劣50%啊那剛剛你說 你們現在已經花多少了我聽了我老實講 我們大家也很無奈嘛預算沒有省 沒有過 你們錢在花 根本沒有差嘛我剛請董事長聽得出我的善意是說我知道你也很無奈 憋了4500萬"},{"start":5172.129,"end":5194.061,"text":"現在我就跟你說你到年底預計總共會花多少錢嘛所以嘛你說三千五那我現在就講嘛那就我願意把它改列減列一千萬解決你的問題嘛那個委員這樣子好不好我可不可以就是減列的留一點點空間"},{"start":5197.247,"end":5197.747,"text":"黃國昌委員的意思是說他從簡列50到"},{"start":5221.732,"end":5222.052,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5245.071,"end":5257.428,"text":"七百萬,五百萬,七百萬可以嗎?我們具體的希望是讓大家能夠,也能夠運作好,這是民進黨團的意見不好意思喔,你們是不好意思這是我的案子"},{"start":5260.12,"end":5262.101,"text":"我希望事情能夠很圓滿的"},{"start":5287.771,"end":5300.056,"text":"我們就預估,明確的預估是3600萬,執行大概到這邊,那如果留200萬的一些餘裕給我們,因為最後結算有關,如果3700萬可不可以?"},{"start":5302.83,"end":5319.159,"text":"院長我可以說話了嗎?好,謝謝曾董事長,現在請黃國昌董事長請不好意思喔,請你們現在已經執行的每一筆的費用以及預估你接下來要花的費用一筆一筆清楚地列出來,送到黨團來,我們看完以後再決定,這個案子就先保留"},{"start":5320.118,"end":5344.389,"text":"好謝謝我們第62案保留我們第63案測案第64案已經改組決議我們通過謝謝第65案改組決議溝通後現在已經發下去了改組決議大家沒有意見有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過第66案改組決議有沒有意見沒有意見通過第67案改組決議有沒有意見沒有意見好謝謝第68"},{"start":5348.413,"end":5354.836,"text":"報告院長,就是說這中間有幾個已經全部都改成主領域,只有68,就是68跟74是謝榮介委員所提的"},{"start":5378.919,"end":5383.721,"text":"因為已經剩下一個月了,因為凍結10%,是不是能夠讓我們提書面報告說明?因為台電現在的虧損已經造成全國的各個產業的疑病的恐慌"},{"start":5407.122,"end":5425.473,"text":"所以這個是一個很嚴肅的問題那今天要我們說變成一個凍結我們很難接受那如果這個案子台電還有想法沒有關係我們這個案子先保留好不好我們先保留那各黨的幹部我們就把他保留好嗎我們再回頭再來檢討那69案改組決議案70案改組決議71改組決議72改組決議73改文字"},{"start":5434.908,"end":5435.169,"text":"74案改組決議"},{"start":5455.483,"end":5473.391,"text":"建議文字那說明一下74案的狀況跟前面68案的狀況是雷同的案子好那曾董事長我們就保留因為金額太大下面75案測案76到82我們可以併案討論76案是簡列250億元曾董事長可不可以請表達一下"},{"start":5481.431,"end":5483.012,"text":"要減少火力發電特別是燒煤是國家既定的政策"},{"start":5504.113,"end":5528.958,"text":"那你們現在燒煤越燒越多阿連那個賣了電廠都要去買了電阿我們這是一個很清楚為了人民的健康不要再用廢機發電那減劣的比例不高阿這200這個錢只有算下來250億大概只有5%嘛你再執行那個鄭董事長你這個執行應該還是有很大的空間對不對你為了人民的健康我跟委員報告的是有一些空間阿但是你要減劣250億就是其實"},{"start":5531.96,"end":5555.198,"text":"國民黨都要凍結10%去了報告委員長,這些相關的火力發電費用76萬、79萬這些,包含減劣的,是不是都能夠得到委員的同意,能夠共同一次減劣,減劣一個額度?比方說如果張其凱委員說250億,那今天王輝委員也在,那這一邊的是不是能夠就是併在裡面一氣,減250億?"},{"start":5558.476,"end":5559.077,"text":"報告主席"},{"start":5580.002,"end":5600.39,"text":"因為這個是同樣一個項目,都是在火力發電的費用,那我也同意76到82並一案來做一個統一的簡列,只是就我還是想要替台電來捍衛一下預算,你們因為看起來250億是一個非常高額的數字,"},{"start":5602.082,"end":5613.158,"text":"就你們再審視一下yes or no因為就我審議的我以前在教育文化委員會這五千萬我們都痛得要死齁這兩百五十億這樣簡列下去可以嗎"},{"start":5615.073,"end":5634.274,"text":"委員我跟委員報告一下就是狀況是這樣子就是其實這裡面有一部分咱們煤的費用是我們的同仁基本上是透過現貨價格如果有下降我們就會去搶現貨搶回來的一些預算準結那今年其實包括整個煤的價格的下降都有在"},{"start":5635.094,"end":5646.622,"text":"委員提到的狀況是這樣,因為這顯得不是量是價,價確實是單價有下降,所以幾位委員提到的簡略我們說現在我們做得到"},{"start":5647.79,"end":5649.732,"text":"其實這個就會跟前面68案的謝榮介委員動14%是一樣的事"},{"start":5672.057,"end":5672.237,"text":"剪列250億元"},{"start":5700.953,"end":5704.214,"text":"我們767780病案共檢列250億科目銷售成本火力發電費用"},{"start":5723.612,"end":5752.567,"text":"我們第77案改組決議,各位黨黨幹部有意見嗎?沒有,好,通過。第78案改組決議,有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過。第81案改組決議,大家有意見嗎?沒有,好,謝謝。第82案改組決議,有意見嗎?沒有,好,謝謝。請吳世瑤要幹什麼?就是說,因為我看了提案,確實76到82大家同意用一個數字來剪裂250億,但如果看前面的68跟74是指同樣的事情嘛。"},{"start":5755.435,"end":5755.956,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5767.418,"end":5768.659,"text":"發言委員．完整會議"},{"start":5786.755,"end":5790.656,"text":"我們就先這樣保留,其他通過了就通過,簡列250億我們先通過一步一步來,第83案、第84案、第85案可以我們一併來討論請83案簡列5000萬,請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見?台電有沒有需要補充?"},{"start":5810.207,"end":5838.153,"text":"84案檢列5000萬85案檢列100萬請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見要表達沒有意見 台電這邊有沒有來一下意見就我的理解這跟上面那個不是一樣嗎它只是編在不同項目可是是同樣一個我認為應該是250億就是到底到第幾頁其實到85是不是都是同樣的"},{"start":5840.322,"end":5844.392,"text":"我們請他們說明不是編不一樣的項目但是只是同樣的事情"},{"start":5848.221,"end":5870.299,"text":"有一些些許的不一樣,因為預算整理的方式,我們可以拿一個副表給各位委員做參考,我沒有把數字狀的圖全部做出來,有一點點劣序不一樣,不過報告各位委員,838485是同一件事,同一件事我們是可以同意減列五千萬,"},{"start":5872.725,"end":5894.489,"text":"各位黨團幹部,台聯同意簡列五千萬,沒有意見,我們簡列五千萬通過。我們進入八十六案以改組決議,我們通過。八七、八八、八九,我們八十七案改組決議,八十八案簡列五千萬,八十九案簡列一百萬,各位黨團幹部要不要什麼意見表達一下?"},{"start":5897.159,"end":5902.067,"text":"是不是8889是來說明一下,是同樣一個專業服務費?是的,它都是同樣一個專業服務費那我支持民眾黨的提案"},{"start":5913.21,"end":5916.072,"text":"請問各位黨團幹部有沒有其他寶貴意見?請問現在你們執行,你們編列是8億3400多萬,你們現在執行的金額是多少?"},{"start":5934.161,"end":5957.188,"text":"我們到10月份為止目前執行的金額是確實不是很高因為它那個就是需量反應付費的部分那因為大院委員其實一直有要求台電在這一個部分要遵節支出我們今年也有照做到一部分的遵節支出的工作對但是這一個事情會隨著整個用電需求的波動會有不一樣的執行狀況出來"},{"start":5960.1,"end":5978.612,"text":"那我們今年編的是8.35億,但是實際狀況執行沒有用到這麼多。那如果減劣,其實這一個部分,因為它是營業型的預算,它不是公務預算。所以坦白講,它會跟著市場在跑的,才不會是一個非常明確的事。那再以今年來講,要減100萬,減幾百萬大概都是,對我們來講影響都是同樣的。"},{"start":5985.424,"end":5986.465,"text":"市長,因為一個問題"},{"start":6007.728,"end":6031.155,"text":"拜託一下我們節省時間請有問必答因為你到底一整圈還是沒有回答那資金數到十月底到底是多少錢兩億那你變八億數在三五千你就一口就同意就好可是今年絕對用不到嘛不就解決了嗎因為經濟部長在他必須表情上有點困難的樣子人同此心好不好我們878"},{"start":6032.896,"end":6049.269,"text":"八七、八八、八十八、八十九兩案並案我們就減列五千萬,他們現在才只贏兩億多,總共變成八億多,好,沒有意見我們就通過八七改組決議,好現在進入九十案改組決議,沒意見,好通過九一、九二並案討論,我們現在"},{"start":6053.155,"end":6066.343,"text":"國民黨團體剪列1億2千萬,臺灣民眾黨團剪列100萬,請問各位黨員有沒有什麼寶貴意見?我們今年的狀況執行的結果大概是4到5億元,所以如果是減掉5千萬之類的我們是可以,這裡1億2千萬"},{"start":6082.012,"end":6110.893,"text":"現在可以執行對還剩五億啊好OK那現在執行才五億列了九億多那我們就減列一億兩千萬各位黨黨幹部好謝謝我們通過接下來九十三案改組決議有沒有意見沒有意見通過九十四案改組決議有沒有意見沒有意見通過九十五案改組決議有沒有意見通過沒有通過九十六案有沒有意見沒有通過九十七案改組決議有沒有意見沒有九十八案組決議有文字修正大家有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":6113.044,"end":6113.944,"text":"102案主決有沒有意見103案有沒有意見"},{"start":6135.856,"end":6140.378,"text":"主席可不可以提出一下請一個人來唸好不好,我越唸聲音越小104案主席有沒有意見"},{"start":6150.99,"end":6176.273,"text":"一百零五萬主席的文字修正沒意見報告委員長一百零五萬就是我們有跟黃建豪委員討論過但他有一個文字上面會造成歧異想要在這邊跟委員報告確認台電公司的意思是針對未來台中火力發電廠新建一座燃氣機組要拆兩座燃煤機組我們會承諾要做報告給大院"},{"start":6177.165,"end":6178.566,"text":"曾董事長意思就是說把承諾兩個字改為檢討"},{"start":6200.682,"end":6202.143,"text":"我們同仁去溝通,我們同仁來告訴我說,我們是要承諾寫報告"},{"start":6219.394,"end":6219.454,"text":"主席"},{"start":6234.376,"end":6250.561,"text":"105 案保留,第106 案主決於文職修正,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見,我們通過107,文職修正主決於有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過108,主決於有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過109,主決於有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過110,主決於有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過110,主決於有沒有意見?"},{"start":6255.435,"end":6258.757,"text":"黃國昌總召欣然接受3個月好嗎?好謝謝我們就修正通過那進到114主協議大家有沒有保過意見?"},{"start":6282.77,"end":6310.149,"text":"通過115文字修正主決議大家有沒有寶貴意見?沒有通過116主決議有沒有意見?沒有通過117文字修正的主決議有沒有意見?沒有118主決議有沒有意見?沒有通過119主決議有沒有意見?通過120文字修正主決議有沒有意見?沒有通過121文字修正主決議有沒有意見?沒有通過謝謝122文字修正有沒有意見?"},{"start":6311.996,"end":6314.898,"text":"我們接下來請自來水公司休息三分鐘"},{"start":6341.953,"end":6344.255,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6367.685,"end":6368.785,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6393.67,"end":6394.59,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6414.276,"end":6415.056,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6442.825,"end":6443.725,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6465.988,"end":6466.689,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6490.094,"end":6490.815,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6509.177,"end":6511.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6527.773,"end":6531.074,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6555.758,"end":6555.778,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":6584.175,"end":6586.156,"text":"黨政軍,我給你共庭。黨政軍,我給你共庭。"},{"start":6607.485,"end":6612.109,"text":"以後就沒有投票權就好了?對,對,對,它是做了一些的,然後委員長覺得他們投資的金額什麼都有限"},{"start":6628.901,"end":6640.695,"text":"為什麼要審訊?不要啦,所以你都沒有搞懂我的意思。因為它是上市上位公司,你隨便你買。"},{"start":6642.287,"end":6658.394,"text":"但是你買的股權都沒有投票權,就是不得監禁你的金錢是這樣,不是你寫什麼再回到限制又是老套了,你為什麼可以買1%為什麼不能買10%?我的邏輯還是對,你要照我講的對,不要每次都在想你的"},{"start":6670.083,"end":6675.788,"text":"這個問題搞了15年,他們都沒有搞短。我跟你講啊,為什麼我們現在協會全部人都"},{"start":6677.27,"end":6698.423,"text":"都拍手什麼富邦什麼臺克拉球真的要拍手你要聽懂我在講什麼國家去限制幾趴幾趴的幾趴我們現在放分到幾趴你要問為什麼你提什麼從0趴變5趴8趴10趴喔8趴就解決富邦的問題大家都知道嘛那為什麼是8趴以後你的1趴你講什麼你還是沒有聽懂我在講什麼"},{"start":6701.425,"end":6724.775,"text":"這些都是上市上櫃公司 誰都可以買 我管你什麼黨政區什麼單位你都可以買所以才不會蔡豪那種買一張就讓大家開會無效 對不對因為這些都是公開發行上市上櫃公司 誰都可以買世大基金也可以買 誰都可以買 但是你買的人是屬於黨政區系列的"},{"start":7197.867,"end":7220.353,"text":"來 謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部因為我們剛才黨團之間協調一些重要事情所以時間耽擱了幾分鐘敬請大家見諒我們接下來我們請自來水公司的李董事長熱情歡迎你請坐好我們現在謝謝進到自來水126案改組決議有沒有意見沒意見通過127改組決議沒意見通過128改組決議沒意見129改組決議"},{"start":7226.567,"end":7228.748,"text":"每件通過131案該組決議每件通過132案該組決議每件通過133案該組決議每件通過134案該組決議"},{"start":7240.492,"end":7240.892,"text":"我們這邊是同意"},{"start":7263.786,"end":7263.966,"text":"主席"},{"start":7288.644,"end":7298.807,"text":"謝謝自來水公司理事長 謝謝你最輕鬆保持一個 微笑一個接下來我們換組一下 好 謝謝大家"},{"start":7315.669,"end":7317.556,"text":"主席"},{"start":7345.851,"end":7347.292,"text":"臺灣金控 林董事長"},{"start":7363.695,"end":7364.235,"text":"第二案 改組決議"},{"start":7388.41,"end":7394.314,"text":"如果沒有意見我們就通過第三案改組決議第四案改組決議第五案主決議有沒有意見各位"},{"start":7398.78,"end":7399.18,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7423.678,"end":7426.219,"text":"中央銀紙廠組決議第十四案"},{"start":7444.991,"end":7445.411,"text":"臺銀人壽保險公司"},{"start":7483.661,"end":7500.215,"text":"第二十案我們改組決議各位沒意見沒意見好通過謝謝好微笑離開謝謝接下來台銀綜合證券股份有限公司列席代表徐董事長熱情歡迎您請坐"},{"start":7503.905,"end":7522.083,"text":"第二十一案改組決議有沒有意見 沒意見通過 謝謝第二十二案有沒有意見 沒意見改組決議通過第二十三案有沒有意見 沒有意見 非常好通過 謝謝微笑離開 謝謝接下來台灣土地銀行"},{"start":7525.428,"end":7536.57,"text":"董事長歡迎您請坐24案該組決議有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過25案文字修正我們凍結100萬然後文字修正請問各位黨團有沒有寶貴意見詢問一下這個針對25案是不是不要提書面"},{"start":7555.592,"end":7555.712,"text":"主席"},{"start":7588.035,"end":7591.043,"text":"您就用最右邊麥克風,別客氣請坐請直接按發言"},{"start":7594.716,"end":7619.975,"text":"是,這個科目最主要是用我們的車輛的燃油匯跟車輛的油資的部分那以目前來講我們112年的話執行率大概81%點多那如果說是委員原來的提案是凍結100萬然後一個月後提書面報告的話其實我們也可以執行"},{"start":7621.288,"end":7621.368,"text":"凍結100萬提書面報告"},{"start":7644.316,"end":7669.298,"text":"謝謝,我們第25案,我們凍結100萬,其餘就提書面報告,OK?好,謝謝那委員請把麥克風壓掉,好,謝謝第26案,各位黨團幹部有沒有意見?沒有意見,我們就照案通過第27案,主決議有沒有意見?沒意見,通過第28案,主決議有沒有意見?沒意見第29案,主決議文字修正有沒有意見?"},{"start":7671.394,"end":7689.188,"text":"沒有意見,好,謝謝臺灣土地銀行,何董事長微笑離開,謝謝我們接下來中國輸出入銀行,我們歡迎代理事主席,好,謝謝請坐我們第30案改組決議,請問各位有沒有意見"},{"start":7691.229,"end":7712.343,"text":"沒有意見,好,通過謝謝輸出銀行,謝謝,請微笑離開,椅子都還沒坐熱,請離開接下來,臺灣煙酒公司湯董事長,請坐第31案,該組決議,大家有沒有意見沒意見,通過,33案該組決議好,通過,33案該組決議通過,34案該組決議通過,35案該組決議好,通過,36案該組決議"},{"start":7720.626,"end":7724.208,"text":"通過 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議 改組決議"},{"start":7749.621,"end":7752.923,"text":"文字修正第47案第48案第49案第50案51案文字修正52案"},{"start":7768.527,"end":7768.807,"text":"財政部印刷廠"},{"start":7798.03,"end":7822.944,"text":"對不起請上主席喝口茶我們第57案改組決議大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們通過第63案我們改組決議大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見我們通過第58案我們改組決議有沒有意見沒有意見通過59案有沒有意見沒有意見謝謝60案測案61案改組決議大家有沒有意見"},{"start":7828.488,"end":7830.71,"text":"以往附屬單位預算的協商順序為通案再到營業再到非營業基金財政部莊部長今天也親自來"},{"start":7853.647,"end":7882.593,"text":"現在只有一件,就是中央政府債務基金那只有這一案,請問各黨團幹部我們是不是容許我們來先審查一下只有這一案,好嗎?好,謝謝大家中央政府債務基金我們只有一案在各位的手上已經改為主決議請大家看一下有沒有意見請大家看一下"},{"start":7885.118,"end":7890.282,"text":"對,已經改為主決議了,沒有意見,好,莊部長,開心,謝謝,微笑離開,謝謝莊部長。我們接下來換場,我們請金管會。"},{"start":7919.712,"end":7947.688,"text":"熱情歡迎我們中央金管會的彭主委請坐請坐我們中央只有一個中央存款保險股份有限公司黃董事長也來啦謝謝熱情歡迎您請問第68案已經改為主決議請問各黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見我們就通過69案主決議文字修正各位有沒有寶貴意見沒有好通過第70案主決議各位有沒有意見"},{"start":7948.971,"end":7956.86,"text":"沒有意見,好謝謝好,彭主委微笑離開,謝謝好,接下來我們換交通國營事業"},{"start":7993.401,"end":8008.772,"text":"熱情歡迎交通部陳部長熱情歡迎您請坐其他所有交通部列席官員請跟大家擺手一下我們接下來首先請中華郵政王董事長熱情歡迎"},{"start":8012.557,"end":8039.879,"text":"我們中華郵政第一案改增列三百萬元請問各位黨團幹部有沒有任何寶貴意見沒有意見我們通過第二案改增列三百萬元大家有沒有寶貴意見有意見好通過第三件改組決議有沒有意見沒有通過第四案改組決議好通過第五案改組決議通過第六案改減列五百萬大家有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":8041.92,"end":8042.18,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8069.583,"end":8079.455,"text":"通過第15案改文字修正主決,有沒有意見?通過第16案改文字修正主決,有沒有意見?通過第17案改文字修正主決,有沒有意見?"},{"start":8081.069,"end":8100.047,"text":"通過第18案主決議 文子修正有沒有意見 沒意見 通過第19案主決議有沒有意見 沒意見 通過好 謝謝中華郵政王董事長 請微笑離開 謝謝接下來台灣鐵路股份衍生公司請杜董事長 歡迎您請坐"},{"start":8104.257,"end":8129.779,"text":"針對臺灣鐵路公司第二十案改組決議有沒有意見?沒有通過二十一案改組決議有沒有意見?通過二十二案改組決議有沒有意見?通過二十三案改組決議?通過二十四案改組決議?通過二十五案改組決議?通過二十六案改組決議?通過二十七案減列兩百萬元請問有沒有寶貴意見?沒有意見好通過二十八案"},{"start":8132.441,"end":8139.285,"text":"該組決議沒意見,沒意見通過。29案該組決議沒意見,通過。30案該組決議,通過。31案該組決議,通過。32案該組決議,通過。33案該組決議,通過。34案該組決議,通過。35案該組決議,沒意見。36案該組決議,通過。37案該組決議,通過。38案該組決議,通過。39案該組決議,"},{"start":8160.74,"end":8175.133,"text":"事實案主決議事實案文字修正主決議通過事實案主決議事實案主決議包主席事實案案是不是請示那個總召這邊能不能幫我們改成書面報告"},{"start":8184.791,"end":8204.792,"text":"黃總召欣然接受我們就改為書面報告事宜事案有沒有意見事宜事案一樣是不是能夠幫我們改成書面報告對不起事宜事案這個沒辦法答應那就遵照辦理就請台灣鐵路公司遵照辦理謝謝我們主決一通過"},{"start":8208.137,"end":8208.577,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8229.707,"end":8247.772,"text":"第47案 港灣收入改組決議 沒意見 通過第48案 撤案第49案 檢列500萬元 請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒意見 通過第50案 組決議 大家有沒有意見沒意見 通過第51案 也沒意見沒意見 通過第52案 也沒意見通過第53案 也沒意見 檢列凍結2000萬元 各位黨團幹部也沒意見"},{"start":8257.318,"end":8285.487,"text":"我們請台灣港澳公司李董事長請說明這個案最主要是我們那個行銷獎勵就是貨櫃有貨櫃的那到現在我們執行到5億多那到年底的話我們會整個再做一個結算再付款所以現在暫時凍結目前還可以"},{"start":8287.409,"end":8288.47,"text":"通過第55案改組決議,凍結10分之1,請李董解說明"},{"start":8305.446,"end":8305.586,"text":"主席"},{"start":8334.381,"end":8334.541,"text":"黃國昌總統請發言"},{"start":8357.635,"end":8385.263,"text":"跟院長還有跟各位黨團報告這件事情非常的嚴重因為事實上我們的高雄港是不是有紅色資本介入的事情我從2018年第一次在立法院的時候我已經提出質詢了那個時候你們所有的回應是一切合法謝謝指教沒有問題結果等到什麼等到20"},{"start":8388.131,"end":8410.944,"text":"21年的時候,新市跟台灣這邊關係非常密切大家也很重視的Project 2049提出了調查報告我們的港口,特別是高雄港,正遭受入侵2022年的時候,法國週刊封面報導那個時候我人已經不在立法院了"},{"start":8411.772,"end":8440.057,"text":"但是我也把相關的資訊給上一屆國會的議員參考再提出資訊那個時候你們才說說什麼到今年九月不會再租出去給上一屆國會講到今年九月不會再租出去結果我今年回到立法院自己去追你們還是再租出去你們說換了一家公司換了一家公司同一組人換一個招牌"},{"start":8441.742,"end":8464.555,"text":"臺北的人不知道在高雄碼頭的人會不知道嗎所以我才在交通委員會再提出質詢在外交國防的時候我也請你們交通部的官員回去轉告你們經濟部的官員回去轉告你們這件事情很嚴重所以既然你們現在還在持續的調查所有的要求"},{"start":8466.596,"end":8478.23,"text":"其實也沒有很過火先動十分之一而已請你來報告報告同意了以後再來動之對你的營運也不會造成什麼影響"},{"start":8479.653,"end":8479.993,"text":"五十五案 主決議"},{"start":8500.623,"end":8500.763,"text":"桃園國際機場楊董事長"},{"start":8528.769,"end":8555.015,"text":"各位黨團幹部我們現在審到桃園國際機場第62案改增列5億元各位請吳思瑤幹事長請發言增列5億幅度有點大說明一下做得到嗎?做得到好那個楊董他們沒問題他們全力以赴好有沒有其他寶貴意見沒意見我們通過第63案增列3億元有沒有意見也OK嗎詢問一下"},{"start":8555.936,"end":8580.613,"text":"有沒有意見?沒有意見好 董事長同意好 謝謝第六三案我們通過第六三案改檢列兩千萬元請問各位黨團幹部還有楊董事長有沒有什麼意見沒有意見好 謝謝我們通過六十五萬改書凍結二十分之一一千四百萬五千元改書面報告請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?沒有"},{"start":8581.479,"end":8583.101,"text":"66案徹案 67案徹案 68案徹案 69案徹案 70案改書面報告 凍結50萬元"},{"start":8596.539,"end":8597.82,"text":"第七十四案書面報告凍結兩千萬"},{"start":8613.462,"end":8635.047,"text":"李董事長有意見﹖有沒有寶貴意見要說明﹖還是﹖沒有﹖好﹖對黨團幹部有意見嗎﹖沒有﹖好﹖我們就﹖凍結兩千萬元書面報告﹖第七十五﹖通過第七十五案﹖凍結二十分之一﹖百分之五﹖一億一千六﹖一億一千一百六十四萬四千元﹖這一案請說明好嗎﹖請說明"},{"start":8641.631,"end":8644.413,"text":"這個案子不能只提書面啊這個案子事情都沒解決啊"},{"start":8666.127,"end":8687.257,"text":"部長也在這邊嘛我質詢兩次以上啊我確定喔我們台灣要發展所謂自駕系統我們是百分之百支持但很奇怪我們台灣在發展自駕車系統的時候啊怎麼政府大的標案大的標案還是那種要經過評選的全部給一個詐騙集團"},{"start":8691.107,"end":8718.669,"text":"我已經公開的講他們是詐騙集團阿他們到現在一句話都不敢反駁阿說什麼在美國有自駕車的系統結果我跟美國那邊求證根本沒有然後在台灣還頒獎給他然後從我們的台鐵行控4.0花了好幾千萬給他做做完了以後按照我們運安威的說法是根本不能用奇怪我們國家錢很多欸"},{"start":8720.174,"end":8724.712,"text":"怎麼都這些特殊的標案幾千萬幾千萬幾千萬給一個莫名其妙的廠商阿"},{"start":8727.129,"end":8751.794,"text":"這個履歷啊 背後的政商集團 政商關係是什麼啊我相信我不用在這邊講得很白啊現在在微校的部長啊 應該都相當的清楚啊那你現在這不是開玩笑的事情啊T3行下 T2到T3的運輸啊還給這家廠商繼續包 現在僵住啦 他做不出來嘛我相信楊董事長非常的清楚啊"},{"start":8752.991,"end":8775.396,"text":"這個到底是怎麼回事啊這不是用書面報告就可以處理啊這個一定要請他們來進行專案報告好,第75案凍結5%各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見,好我們第75案我們就凍結5%剩下我們就來提專案報告好,謝謝第76案凍結1000萬元各位黨團幹部有沒有意見"},{"start":8782.841,"end":8783.061,"text":"好 謝謝董事長微笑離開"},{"start":8813.5,"end":8833.099,"text":"好,謝謝交通部陳部長,謝謝阿,主席長謝謝,跟大家各位黨員幹部報告一下,通案及營業部分我們現在已經過了300案,我們從下午3點出席到現在,那目前保留有台塘兩案,中油兩案,台電四案共8案,"},{"start":8834.07,"end":8834.39,"text":"明天下午2點半繼續開會"}]}},{"id":"157490","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177acaf4b92e648a83219efc61e85f95edfbe54b9bd157483afa1b3ed4d2a5df194e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:24:37 - 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對不對而且漲電價最近這三年漲了四次"},{"start":37.674,"end":65.811,"text":"人民錢已經被掏了很多出來了更嚴重的要扛越薄越大扛這是人民第一個感覺第二個我今天要跟兩位探討一個非常重要的現在人民在問啊蔡英文任內漲電價漲了4次幅度漲幅高達35%這還不算帶輕的10月15號可是呢到今年7月份台電這個洞越補市越大洞"},{"start":66.957,"end":92.433,"text":"我那麼多錢,漲了那麼多次臺電在7月虧損還有4348億那你怎麼知道人民相信說給你這1000億可以解決問題呢是不是這次給你1000億錢花更多呢而且你去對比馬英九8年他調了4次漲幅才23%欸最近這幾年會不會漲得太多了另外一個很重要的觀點"},{"start":94.276,"end":117.897,"text":"當初在討論說要不要漲電價的時候那時候民眾得到的消息是說如果給你這一千億就是我們今天討論的一千億十月份就不會漲電價啊對不對好啦那你現在十月漲了喔你十月份漲了電價啦漲了12%的工業用電喔我今天要問你你今天來要這一千億你電價是不是要降回去"},{"start":119.861,"end":145.819,"text":"你當初是說你要補我這1000億沒有的話我準備要漲電價結果你現在電價漲了嘛10月份10月15號漲了嘛對不對你今天又來是要這1000億是不是應該如果今天答應你要補這1000億要把10月份那個電價先降回來是不是這樣來次定還是出決定要說這事情來給聲明一個答案各位報告喔這個虧損不是今年"},{"start":147.039,"end":147.059,"text":"市長"},{"start":173.661,"end":177.133,"text":"我從二月份開始總執行問到這次我已經講了五六次了"},{"start":178.544,"end":206.214,"text":"國際的天然氣跟煤炭都已經降下來了發電成本都是都已經掉下來了第二更重要的現在人民在生氣什麼事情臺電一個金雞模啊國營事業的模範生啊結果現在等一下等一下等一下他有兩個大的問題嘛第一包括賴清德跟卓永泰都講的嘛光電的閉案到底被掏空了多少錢看一下陳其立昨天投案了對不對說要進見"},{"start":208.312,"end":226.562,"text":"連帶清德、中泰都是要趕快辦,對不對光是一個臺元力能你們自己要去做光電啊,到現在很多光電也沒有做出來啊說漁電共生、漁死的電也沒生啊多少錢?臺元被掏空的11億還面對可能140億的這個球場這個錢你給了1000億那邊又要出去100多億夠補嗎?"},{"start":237.611,"end":257.203,"text":"同樣在臺南的麗陽光電（起訴蘇公山不法收得為臺電要賺多少錢（91億（聯合再生（因為你們沒有去訂在張斌工業區設置太陽光電這個標注案（沒有設下限（回饋的這個下限（國庫損失了70億（"},{"start":260.291,"end":274.659,"text":"聯合再生後來去違約去出售又套利了兩億多一來一去你現在跟我們要這一千億好更嚴重的第一個當然去把弊案查清楚就不要這一千億了第二個核能明明是最便宜的一多1.23、1.13"},{"start":277.264,"end":304.653,"text":"你從合一已經停掉了合二停合三的一號機也停了明年五月又要停一年成本喔要增加一千億你用核電你就沒有這一千億的問題啊結果為了你們的意識形態全世界現在都返回核能結果現在民進黨在返核人家在返回核能在用核電的時候你們在不用核電好更重要的我今天跟你講一個很重要的觀念這一千億代表什麼如果今天給你這一千億"},{"start":306.28,"end":332.437,"text":"是不是就排擠了?今天朱家庭在這?朱家庭管這個錢怎麼用?我們有1000億啊應該去多做社會福利啊這幾天大家這麼高興我們的棒球隊拿了世界冠軍回來啊都去做這個推動棒球啊體育活動啊我算給大家聽來,你看看這幾天啊,郭國文這幾天郭國文說要估重量那個獎金加碼到1億對不對?你這1000億我怎麼說的?"},{"start":335.598,"end":364.585,"text":"不要發生弊案,把弊案發生的錢追回來核電好好用,你這一千億就不用了,這一千億可以拿去做什麼?郭國文說他估重量獎金加碼到一千億被罵翻了你不要做到我剛講的這一千億做什麼事情?我們可以發一千次的獎金欸為什麼現在給台電這樣浪費?弊案也不好好去追然後核電能夠用的也不用,要我們人民再掏一千億去補你為什麼不拿來發獎金發一千次?"},{"start":365.834,"end":390.811,"text":"第2個大雞蛋的體育館造價多少錢161億這1000億可以蓋6座的大雞蛋的體育館另外政府跟人民不是一直說要有社會住宅嗎這1000億可以興建4萬戶的社會住宅如果不含土地含土地也可以蓋1萬戶的社會住宅現在政府一直在推動少子化"},{"start":392.725,"end":421.64,"text":"我們要鼓勵要多生小孩作業指導宅這個服務我們要補助6萬塊對不對你去拿2023年的新生兒這個人數13萬5千個人為基準你全部補助這1000億省下來可以補助12年所以今天在談的不是冷冰冰的1000億第一個你可以從杜傑弊案太陽能光電號去查避免花這麼多錢那個錢很多都留到利誘偶的口袋裡面去啊人民就生氣啊"},{"start":423.015,"end":441.046,"text":"第二,你可以用這個核電啊第三個,你這筆錢現在如果給你是不是排擠了我們的社會福利跟體育預算可以給獎金啊可以蓋大巨蛋的這個體育館啊可以興建社會住宅啊可以補助這個作業者到宅服務啊補助12年啊委員,我可以再講一下嗎?嗯,請說剛才你說你養的91億,我們一線就沒福"},{"start":450.103,"end":450.123,"text":"．張啓楷"},{"start":469.019,"end":470.599,"text":"現在檢查官一共起訴了超過50個案子"},{"start":497.028,"end":525.629,"text":"我這幾天我還特別到臺南跟嘉義的那個太陽能光電的那個暗場去看啊,看那裡有什麼事啊?現在我們一些農田跟漁園被破壞了,下面有些還弄了什麼爐渣,還有一些廢棄物,然後現在更嚴重我剛才說的嘛,就浪費了我們的民脂民膏嘛,結果你現在說的,你虧欠不給他,你擋了一兩個案子嘛,可是還是有很多的案子要去把它查清楚,這個是,你現在應該是正本清衍,聽我講,你正本清衍人民現在要的什麼?你去解決問題嘛。"},{"start":526.75,"end":528.011,"text":"中央政府總預算追加預算案。（詢答及處理（"},{"start":556.133,"end":560.915,"text":"委員剛才你講的所有事情我們一一跟你說明你剛才講哪一個案子多少億哪一個案子多少億我就跟你說沒付啊你說天然氣價格燃煤價格有下降我真的很誠懇跟你說"},{"start":581.549,"end":604.235,"text":"他現在的數字都在對啦,你現在說的就是說你們匱限不給他現在先停下來我跟你講就是說這個就是檢察官很清楚已經算出來說有可能發生這個弊案嘛對不對而且有部分你聽我說不是你現在不給他台電那個匱限他就停下來他有些錢已經搬出去嘛你看陳錦益已經搬了多少錢台元力能要搬了多少錢出去"},{"start":605.219,"end":611.164,"text":"臺電跟經濟部跟政府必案不處理,能源政策不好好去處理明明以前核能可以用的,全世界都在用,你們不用,一年1000億,你現在又來拿這1000億"},{"start":631.839,"end":632.42,"text":"主席陳奕臻委員"}]}},{"id":"157474","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157474","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a2dc05c676d486c25bebea231f805397be54b9bd157483afa53e23ddd97f11bf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:58:24 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10:07:10","影片長度":"00:08:46","會議時間":"2024-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：11月27日(星期三)、28日(星期四)一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分。四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金－海洋污染防治基金。\n\n備註：113年11月25日（星期一）、27日（星期三）、28日（星期四）【三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-27","start_time":"2024-11-27T09:58:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-27T10:07:10+08:00","duration":526,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-2-15-12"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.29534375,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.20659375,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.086593750000006,"end":88.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.04784375,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.97596875,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.02659375,"end":82.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.75221875000001,"end":83.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.97909375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.02971875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.04596875,"end":94.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.82534375,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.31159375000001,"end":178.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.34534375,"end":175.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.21409375000002,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.30096875,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.93596875,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.96534375000002,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.34846875000002,"end":213.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.26784375000003,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.27159375000002,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.03409375,"end":223.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.89471875,"end":224.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.24909375000001,"end":224.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.28284375,"end":246.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.15284375000002,"end":268.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.15909375,"end":260.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.17596875000004,"end":261.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.05346875000004,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.96784375000004,"end":312.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.94721875,"end":293.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.06909375000004,"end":296.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.12971875,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.11534375,"end":324.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.98409375,"end":359.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.33346875,"end":360.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.48096875000005,"end":360.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.53159375,"end":374.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.20034375,"end":380.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.78659375,"end":376.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.49909375000004,"end":380.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.49471875,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.05159375000005,"end":382.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.02596875,"end":391.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.34096875,"end":394.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.92284375,"end":422.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.27284375000005,"end":396.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.41096875000005,"end":403.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.05784375,"end":429.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.02284375000005,"end":438.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.37596875,"end":475.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.45909375,"end":446.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.75159375000004,"end":465.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.30284375,"end":489.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.40596875000006,"end":489.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.82784375000006,"end":491.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.80221875,"end":498.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.09221875000003,"end":505.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.50471875000005,"end":514.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.32284375000006,"end":509.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.41971875,"end":510.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPE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管主委好首先先請教一下這兩天大家非常關注的一個新聞就是海巡署裡面的一個女下士她涉嫌洩密然後主動的索取匯款然後來透露我們的國家機密那我覺得這件事情滋事體大剛剛其實緬懷委員也有提到其實管主委也有大概的表達一下說其實現在有針對海巡署裡面這樣的情勢有做基本的防堵"},{"start":39.539,"end":67.547,"text":"這件事情大家很關心因為大家知道說其實現在中共在吸收共諜他們的不只是軍種是海陸空軍其實海巡署也是重點不管是什麼樣的軍種其實他們都沒有放過所以我覺得全面的防堵非常重要所以也在這邊請我們管主委來跟大家表達一下說接下來到底有什麼樣的防堵措施要來提振一下不只是我們海巡署的士氣也好"},{"start":68.827,"end":87.484,"text":"給予國人信心也好這件事情真的非常重要否則這樣的泄密案一再的出現因為其實大家也知道國防部手上也有很多案他們也都積極的在主動送案當中包括前陣子送了一個宮廟跟黑道吸收的共諜案起訴了十幾個"},{"start":89.042,"end":115.989,"text":"那海巡署其實也是一樣的情形?其中也有從國防部牽連到我們海巡署來的。所以中國的盛痛真的是無孔不入,非常的恐怖。而且真的都是高架在誘惑我們的捍衛部隊。所以這個事情對國家來講是一個非常非常重大的國安的問題。因此我是非常的重視。那我剛剛也有說明過,特別在跟黃委員說明,就是說我一個在在而山的山林武生,"},{"start":116.849,"end":118.37,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海"},{"start":136.142,"end":138.202,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":160.467,"end":177.694,"text":"被交保者出來現身說法,說給你們聽,讓大家知道他的慘痛的經歷。我讓大家知道說,如果你洩的密等是軍事機密,你最高可以判無期徒刑。我不斷地三令五申告訴我的同仁。"},{"start":178.374,"end":180.655,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":203.015,"end":223.637,"text":"好,謝謝諸位的說明。當然,如果真的是他們鎖定一些經濟弱勢的一些人員下手,那我當然也希望說,沒錯,所以我也希望說海巡署在這邊可以掌握所有同仁的狀況,不希望說大家因為經濟的需求誤入歧途。"},{"start":224.358,"end":239.17,"text":"我們有組律師團下去做法治的教育以外鼓勵大家願意讓我們替他們做債務清理的工作或債務協商的工作連這些事情我都有在推動了可見對這個事情我們有看到問題點有針對問題努力的在防止"},{"start":245.495,"end":268.685,"text":"好 謝謝主委的說明那這件事情真的非常重要國安是大家共同的責任那再來想請教一下因為其實這個海洋三法到現在其實最後一里路就是海域管理法沒錯 所以在這邊也想請教一下主委海域管理法目前推動的進度手上的草案到底到什麼程度了呢"},{"start":269.185,"end":292.214,"text":"跟委員報告我們還需要進行跨部會的協商那這一部法律它所牽動相關必須要配套修的法非常的多其中還包括國土計劃法所以我們目前正在研擬這個各部會相關的意見之中那我們自己本身有草案的版本出來我可以請我們海資處長來跟委員做一下我們的規劃說明我們內部開過非常多次的會了"},{"start":298.576,"end":323.937,"text":"那其實在過去也跟相關的政委都開過會了那現在我們的處長也去跟現在的主管政委都做過報告了那下一個階段主要是跨部會的協商好 謝謝跟委員報告就是說海域管理法的部分目前其實它的內容會跟現行的區域計劃法跟未來的國土計劃法其實是高度重疊沒錯"},{"start":324.758,"end":339.463,"text":"那這一個法實施以後區域計劃法跟國土計劃法怎麼處理那未來現行海域管理法裡面還涉及到我們現在其他部會的33部的一個涉海的法律那也都要做一個安排"},{"start":340.003,"end":341.984,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":360.814,"end":382.635,"text":"海域的部分就是海域管理法來納管這個是行政院現在政策確定的那現在後續大概就是涉及其他跟涉海法律的安排的這一個部分那也跟在...不好意思處長我追問一下所謂的就是海陸分離是指說所有的領海所有的領海你們都要管嗎"},{"start":383.255,"end":391.309,"text":"就是從平均高潮線往海的一側只要是我們國家管轄的海域都是我們海域管理法來納管"},{"start":392.401,"end":395.383,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":422.662,"end":447.778,"text":"地球物理甚至是很多生文的部分像這些其實你們有在處理但是如果有一部分的領海的內容是由國土計畫法來管理並沒有辦法像你們管到這麼全面甚至我們的海洋資料庫是會有缺漏的我擔心的是這個是所以跟委員報告就是說我們現在跟內政部協調的結果就是從平均高潮線往海的一側就通通交給我海委會的海域管理法來納管"},{"start":448.698,"end":469.286,"text":"那這些科研的資料我們有我們的國家海洋研究院在統合其他部會做完整的全海域的基礎調查這些資料也會進到我們所謂的國家海洋資料庫裡面到時候有可以分享各部會來使用那這個也是未來我們這個法律在做所謂的海洋空間規劃裡面"},{"start":470.986,"end":488.415,"text":"這些海洋科學數據都是重要的一個參考的一個基礎資料。沒錯,謝謝處長的說明,這就是我想要知道的答案。除了這個之外,我也希望像你剛剛後續提到的,海域管理法跟接下來是不是海洋空間規劃法有機會分開立法,這個你們也應該要下去討論。"},{"start":490.189,"end":504.972,"text":"跟委員報告其實當時講海域管理法是比較精簡那未來這一個法制其實我們的核心就是海洋空間規劃及管理法可能後續會這麼調整所以是只有一部法律"},{"start":506.508,"end":516.462,"text":"我們就是海域管理法的內容中的一個核心那名稱是不是要改我們未來討論的時候會討論好那我也希望加速立法謝謝主委謝謝黃婕委員接下來我們請牛許廷委員"}]}},{"id":"157538","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157538","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a277ae2a661beb3e46e756e96dd8ac7a32bae0214b15caa08c7b66ba030a8f37c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:26:49 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嗎"},{"start":240.345,"end":254.372,"text":"所以你是要瞭解摩天輝的意思嗎?對啊對啊不然的話你這樣子蠻恐怖的啊現在國際上發生任何的事情尤其是川普他可能會拋出很多跟拜登不一樣的政策出來然後我們都想說等他拋了再講然後發生影響再說"},{"start":256.572,"end":281.927,"text":"應該不是這樣子吧部長報告委員我想這個問題跟你所想像的不會一樣那是怎樣我講商業上面我們必須要看他實際出手了以後我們再來對應當然我們有很多對應的方法現在就是在問你方法你現在感覺就是講這個命題不一定是講清楚因為其實我問你問題你如果有清楚一點你如果有反對的話我的問題就是剛剛說如果說像這些"},{"start":286.029,"end":305.258,"text":"電子專業的製造代工廠如果他有受到這個關稅的影響那我們政府會怎麼因應嗎?我們就幫助他到美國去設廠就好啦幫助他去美國設廠是不是?就是他隔一條街就是美國啦所以現在因應的方式就是幫助他去美國設廠當然啦那有多大的把握?多大的把握?"},{"start":307.386,"end":332.787,"text":"對阿,就是說你只要幫助他,他就會去嗎?美國就...他們自己就會去啦!所以你這也算是...因為美國那個地方齁,報告委員,這個桃李不言,下至晨曦啦!好不好,他的條件夠好他就會去啦!所以其實部長你也提了一個移美論啦,移動的移啦,移美論就是說我們未來就把這些產業,這些工廠、公司,勸他們去美國設廠解決這個問題嗎?條件不好他也不會去嘛!那對國內的勒?"},{"start":334.329,"end":341.726,"text":"國內的產業就是我們會分兩種嘛我們會看他所需要的問題是什麼"},{"start":342.83,"end":363.744,"text":"那他對國內現在都還沒有定出來要做什麼樣的措施嘛所以我們不會先講啦我們等他的確定他會對台灣採取什麼樣的措施我們才有這個幫助的方式部長你的答詢都高深莫測就是不願意我不知道這是不願意先底牌還是說根本沒有準備好啦"},{"start":364.164,"end":389.546,"text":"那我是希望說你是不想我是希望你是因為不想先立牌啦但如果說其實你都是沒有準備好你不知道會有什麼影響然後沒有因應作為所以你就在立院答詢的時候就說我們都準備好啦但是怎麼樣到時候再說我就會覺得很恐怖啦所以希望說你是準備好的你不是我所以你不能用我的想法來騙我你每次來答詢的時候你回答問題都用這種方式就好啦因為你的問題就讓我"},{"start":390.967,"end":391.087,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1149,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時27分）請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：請教一下部長，因為川普說要對墨西哥、加拿大，還有中國大陸提高關稅，他的這個提高關稅可能跟您之前所倡的一個政策，感覺會帶來威脅，因為你之前一直提到境外國內，就是要我們的一些企業移到其他國家去生產，然後來降低關稅。其實我們現在已經有很多大廠到墨西哥去設廠，這個部分您掌握到的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我所了解的狀況，我們臺灣到墨西哥的這個場域，其實跟美國的新墨西哥州是接近的、連結的。川普如果對他們要課25%的關稅，我相信他們會去衡量，因為墨西哥政府有給他們一些稅上面的incentive，可能是土地不用錢。他們會衡量這個東西賣進去美國，是不是划算？而他在那個地方生產，不一定是賣給美國，可能賣給加拿大，也可能是賣給南美的廠商，所以我們要去了解他們的……"],["葉委員元之：所以你要先評估一下，他生產出來之後是賣到哪裡，如果是賣到美國，才會受到影響。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["葉委員元之：如果賣到其他國家不會受到影響。目前可能事出突然，所以也沒有做過這樣的評估，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：因為大部分是電電公會的會員，所以我們也會去跟他們了解，有沒有需要政府來support？"],["葉委員元之：準備要去了解就對了。第二個，我想問一下，假設這些所謂的電子專業製造代工廠或公司受到影響，按照WTO的規定，理論上這些產業、行業應該是免關稅，那麼這個部分會不會去跟WTO申訴？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們去申訴要有贏的把握，不然你去申訴等於是……"],["葉委員元之：所以，沒有贏的把握就不會去？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在還不太了解，會有多大的影響。"],["葉委員元之：第一，我只是說如果有影響，因為我們現在要把SOP訂出來，怎麼可能等到有影響，再想要怎麼辦？所以你要先想……"],["郭部長智輝：我們這一方面的scenario都有在進行。"],["葉委員元之：對，這個跟WTO有沒有關係，你不會去做任何動作就對了？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請國貿署署長跟你報告？"],["葉委員元之：主要這個政策是您提出來的，你還有一個政策就是大手拉小手，大帶小！"],["郭部長智輝：那是供應鏈的部分。"],["葉委員元之：供應鏈一樣嘛！你出去之後，大家在那邊就形成一個供應鏈嘛！如果有其他的影響，我們要怎麼因應？我現在問的問題是這個。"],["郭部長智輝：我們要怎麼因應，要看他們會碰到什麼樣的問題，不一定都是關稅的問題。"],["葉委員元之：我想你做為一個部長，不可能都沒有想過，你說等到他發生問題以後來告訴我們，要我們怎麼解決，我們才來協助，沒有這樣子的啦！通常產業的發展，你要比人家先想好兩、三步啦，他可能會怎麼樣，我們要怎麼解決，解決之後可能又會面臨什麼困難，所以我們再怎麼來解決。怎麼可能是我先拋一個想法出來，等你有問題，我再幫你想怎麼解決，不是這樣啦！部長。現在我們就是問你這個事情後續幾個步驟，你有沒有規劃？"],["郭部長智輝：所以你是要了解墨西哥……"],["葉委員元之：對啊！不然你這樣子是滿恐怖的。現在國際上發生任何的事情，尤其川普可能會拋出很多跟拜登不一樣的政策出來，然後我們都在想，等他拋之後再講，發生影響再說，應該不是這樣子吧，部長！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個問題跟你所想像的不會一樣……"],["葉委員元之：那是怎樣？"],["郭部長智輝：在商業上面，我們必須看他實際出手了以後，我們再來對應。當然我們也有很多對應的方法。"],["葉委員元之：現在就是在問你方法，你現在感覺就是講……"],["郭部長智輝：命題不一定是因為……"],["葉委員元之：其實我問你問題，你如果有準備的話……"],["郭部長智輝：你的問題要清楚一點，我才有辦法回答……"],["葉委員元之：我的問題就是剛剛說的，像這些電子專業製造代工廠，如果他有受到這個關稅的影響，我們政府會怎麼因應？"],["郭部長智輝：我們幫助他到美國去設廠就好了啊。"],["葉委員元之：幫助他去美國設廠？"],["郭部長智輝：因為他隔一條街就是美國啦。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在因應的方式就是幫助他去美國設廠？"],["郭部長智輝：當然啦！"],["葉委員元之：那有多大的把握？"],["郭部長智輝：多大把握？"],["葉委員元之：就是說，你只要幫助他，他就會去嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他們自己就會去啦！報告委員，美國那個地方是桃李不言下自成蹊！條件夠好，他就會去。"],["葉委員元之：其實部長也提過移美論，移動的移。未來就是把我們這些產業、這些工廠、公司，勸他們去美國設廠，以解決這個問題？"],["郭部長智輝：條件不好，他也不會去。"],["葉委員元之：對國內的產業呢？"],["郭部長智輝：國內的產業分兩種，我們會看他的問題是什麼，他在國內現在都還沒有訂出來需要做什麼樣的措施，所以我們不會先講啦，我們要等他確定會對臺灣採取什麼樣的措施，我們才會有幫助的方式。"],["葉委員元之：部長的答詢都高深莫測，我不知道你是不願意掀底牌，還是你根本沒有準備好！我希望你是不想掀底牌啦！如果是你都沒有準備好，你不知道會有什麼影響，然後沒有因應作為，所以你在立院答詢的時候就說：「我們都準備好啦，但是怎麼樣到時候再說！」我會覺得很恐怖啦，所以希望你是準備好的。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你不是我，所以你不能用我的想法……"],["葉委員元之：以後你每次來答詢，回答問題都用這種方式就好啦！"],["郭部長智輝：因為你的問題，讓我沒有辦法確實的回答……"],["葉委員元之：怎麼會，我覺得我問的問題非常的好回答，如果你有準備的話。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，我們可能要多溝通一下。"],["主席：請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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起經常有火災發生總而言之原因非常的多那我也要感謝在我們的反應之後我們表達原鄉也很需要電纜地下化那有一些地區謝謝我們台電願意來協助但是無論如何原住民地區很大"},{"start":100.128,"end":115.589,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":115.969,"end":140.995,"text":"通通都是提到一年停電超過100次那甚至是有的里長跟我們陳情說電器設備都壞掉啦電電箱壞掉啦平均一周斷電5次啊然後呢提到說連外包商都找不到電力輸送的問題到底在哪每一次都回應說是這些動物植物來破壞電力"},{"start":142.375,"end":163.533,"text":"最嚴重的是很多的年輕人回來經營產業露營區但是飽受斷電的困擾最後都決定再回到大都會所以我覺得在我們這個當中除了剛才我講的電纜地下化我們也很需要自己原鄉地區電力的建構"},{"start":164.674,"end":190.288,"text":"所以以復興區來講這一位區長他就主動的跟外面的學者專家合作他們怎麼做呢?他們用一種移動式的探經濟電廠他是移動式的每一次就去收這一些封島木樹枝然後呢做成再生能源那希望呢可以作為一些備用的能源那也能夠發電那可是"},{"start":192.329,"end":207.346,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":207.346,"end":223.251,"text":"﹗"},{"start":223.331,"end":250.203,"text":"竟然沒有什麼誘因為了獲得一千萬的補助他必須要花四千萬自己去買設備所以呢沒有一個相公所做得到我們也鼓勵合作社地方協會參與但是他的總裝置容量要十千瓦以上等等這些都發現至愛難行那妙的是呢我在11月11號呢得到的回覆回覆說"},{"start":253.185,"end":264.478,"text":"所以我11月20號又開了協調會那總而言之我是想要請教一下既然我們設置了這些獎勵的鼓勵的辦法"},{"start":266.22,"end":289.087,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":289.167,"end":300.937,"text":"我覺得經濟部是不是應該好好的去針對這些辦法好好的修正放寬獎勵標準更友善那是不是可以在一週內提出修正"},{"start":303.321,"end":319.074,"text":"跟委員報告一下,剛剛委員講的那個移動式的那個應該是它力料的部分,那我們所謂的因為發電設備有分成就是說磁器發電的那個是因為它跟台電連在一起,它那個一定要是固定的,因為它還確定說那個連上去的設備是什麼"},{"start":319.795,"end":339.963,"text":"但是委員說那個移動的部分因為它力量的部分那個我們沒有特別的規定那委員說那個原住民這個就是設置獎勵辦法還有這個這個我們會再檢討但是請給委員多給我們一點時間因為這個裡面涉及到很多利害關係的人我們現在正在檢討當中好我剛剛提到三種的辦法法規來那個董事長請"},{"start":341.667,"end":341.687,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":359.199,"end":379.401,"text":"臺電的狀況會是這樣就是說你在部落內我們現在其實是在推微電網我知道委員一定清楚這個是其實因為我要從山下這樣一路上去喔中間受到影響的機會太高了那其實坦白講部落停電有很多時候故障的都不是部落內部的線路而是我送到部落的大潰線斷掉"},{"start":380.962,"end":403.179,"text":"像您剛才舉的幾個例子我們遇到不管是復興或哪裡都是這種狀況我們會盡量來加快改善但我也跟委員報告現在我們有些地方我們很怕就颱風來入段我們甚至都在入段之前把人就已經先擺到部落裡面去準備修復這幾年我們其實做了很多改變所以這種防災的電網很重要斷訊斷路"},{"start":406.221,"end":418.249,"text":"我們現在是這樣子講,我們想要因為關鍵是斷訊啦那斷訊的部分還要跟中華電信一起來合作那原則上我們希望能夠在部落找到一個公共地點來做就是"},{"start":419.383,"end":420.845,"text":"臺電的整個發電量配比,火力再生能源幾乎就佔了九成。"},{"start":439.267,"end":462.019,"text":"然後這個當中50%都在燃料上面所以呢他的一個成本造成你們的發電成本購電成本不斷的上升我看到預算中心的這個數據以你們的發電成本的火力發電109年1.7塊的現在都已經要3.5那或者是像再生聯園的108年1.5現在都要2.58"},{"start":466.642,"end":478.291,"text":"在你們購入的電力呢,民營電廠可能以前兩塊多,現在都要四塊多。再生能源以前要三四塊,現在都要五塊多。所以我其實是說導致你們說虧損連連嘛,然後說需要追加預算嘛。"},{"start":482.634,"end":505.095,"text":"那如果接下來國際燃料繼續上升的狀況下我們的電價成本也是會繼續上升那你們的對策到底是什麼我們總不可能年年追加預算所以因為時間的關係我想這個就一併給我回覆等一下後面一併回覆所以我想問台電你們目前購買多少原箱電力你們有購買到原箱電力嗎"},{"start":507.386,"end":524.902,"text":"委員報告因為原廂大概都不會是發電去 是啊 送上去比較多 是啊 所以因為臺電的能源政策像這種你們寫的設置太陽光電系統風力機組等等這種可能不適合我們部落的生態我們需要的是小型電網這種小型的發電系統就像您剛剛董事長所說的"},{"start":530.026,"end":552.039,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":552.079,"end":552.459,"text":"委員（伍麗華Saidhai"},{"start":567.728,"end":595.374,"text":"像你們進來做發電常常有很多的糾紛啊像是這些萬里水利發電就花了很多的時間在處理部落關係的認定這個是耗時耗力耗心力又或者像你們過去台電有很多用我們原住民私人的土地可是因為我們當時還沒有所有權結果引起很多的糾紛因為你們會還給相公所然後導致這些私有的地主我們現在已經有權利回復辦法"},{"start":596.474,"end":596.594,"text":"羅明財委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":845,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時18分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部能源署吳副署長、台電曾董事長。"],["主席：能源署吳副署長，還有台電曾文生董事長。"],["吳副署長志偉：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：副署長、董事長好。今天我是要來感謝，也有一些要求。為什麼要特別感謝？因為我們長期看到原偏鄉很會停電，停電的原因其實滿多樣的，舉個例子來講，颱風常常從南臺灣上來，所以一望無際的地方那些電桿、電線很容易就傾倒，然後就造成停電；有一些地方是因為發展觀光，像是要拍電影，當時要拍《斯卡羅》，到處都是電線，所以有一些是基於觀光需求；有一些部落不知道電桿、電線是怎麼建置的，又長、又密、又多，經常造成行車安全上的問題；有一些地方是因為山林都是樹，所以跟這些電桿、電線打在一起，經常有火災發生，總而言之，原因非常的多！我也要感謝，在我們反映之後，我們表達原鄉也很需要電纜地下化，有一些地區謝謝台電願意來協助。但是無論如何，原住民地區很大，停電如果成為日常，會非常的困擾，尤其是這些地方父母官，不停的接到抱怨、陳情。","舉個例子，像最有名的桃園復興區經常上榜，這些年來統統都是提到一年停電超過一百次，甚至有的里長跟我們陳情說電器設備都壞掉啦、變電箱壞掉啦、平均一週斷電五次啊！然後提到連外包商都找不到電力輸送的問題到底在哪，每一次都回應說是動物、植物在破壞電力。最嚴重的是很多年輕人回來經營產業露營區，但是飽受斷電的困擾，最後都決定再回到大都會。所以我覺得在這當中，除了剛才我講的電纜地下化，我們也很需要自己原鄉地區電力的建構，以復興區來講，這一位區長他就主動跟外面的學者專家合作，他們怎麼做呢？他們用一種移動式的碳經濟電廠，它是移動式的，每一次就去收這些風倒木樹枝，然後做成再生能源，希望可以作為一些備用的能源，也能夠發電，可是他們就遇到很多的困難。","我曾經在10月30日問過經濟部部長，因為你們推動的再生能源發電設備設置管理辦法，上面竟然寫死了，說是定置型，所以一旦碰到這種移動型就沒有辦法獲得政府的補助；又或者我們有原住民地區參與再生能源設置示範獎勵辦法，但是竟然沒有什麼誘因，為了獲得1,000萬的補助，他必須要花4,000萬自己去買設備，所以沒有一個鄉公所做得到。我們也鼓勵合作社、地方協會參與，但是總裝置容量要10瓩以上等等，都發現窒礙難行，妙的是我在11月11號得到的回復說窒礙難行，所以我11月20號又開了協調會。總而言之，我是想要請教一下，既然設置了這些獎勵鼓勵的辦法，未見這些年有任何一個地方的鄉鎮公所、原鄉的或者是合作社能夠參與，就表示辦法很有問題，反而是要那些民間企業來投入的，像紅葉的地熱谷才有辦法，那就表示根本不適用地方。所以我覺得經濟部是不是應該針對這些辦法好好修正，放寬獎勵標準，更友善，是不是可以在一週內提出修正？"],["吳副署長志偉：跟委員報告一下，剛剛委員講的那個移動式應該是粒料的部分，因為發電設備有分成實際發電的，因為它要跟台電連在一起，那個一定要是固定的，因為它要確定連上去的設備是什麼，但是委員說的移動的部分是因為粒料的部分，那個我們有特別的規定。至於委員說的原住民的設置獎勵辦法，我們會再檢討，但是請委員多給我們一點時間，因為這裡面涉及很多利害關係人，我們現在正在檢討當中，以上跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我剛剛提到三種辦法、法規。董事長，請。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，有關原鄉電網那一塊，我們現在一直都在調整，您剛才秀的照片，就是有很多電線在天上飛來飛去的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["曾董事長文生：可能有一半都不會是台電的線，現在很多都是有線電視的cable線這些東西，台電的狀況會是這樣，在部落內我們現在其實是在推微電網，我知道委員一定清楚這個事。但因為要從山下這樣一路上去，中間受到影響的機會太高了，其實坦白講，部落停電有很多時候故障的都不是部落內部的線路，而是我們送到部落的大饋線斷掉，像您剛才舉的幾個例子，我們遇到復興等都是這種狀況，我們會儘量加快改善。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。"],["曾董事長文生：但我也跟委員報告，現在有些地方，我們很怕颱風來路斷，我們甚至都在路斷之前就已經先把人擺到部落裡面去準備修復。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。"],["曾董事長文生：這幾年我們其實做了很多改變，也讓復電速度變快。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這種防災的電網很重要，斷訊、斷路……"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在是這樣子，因為關鍵是斷訊，斷訊的部分還要跟中華電信一起合作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["曾董事長文生：原則上我們希望能夠在部落找到一個公共地點來做，現在最快的方法就是光電板加儲能，然後再加上一些小型發電機，讓基本的供電能夠維持，這個我們儘快做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，這個就是我接下來要講的，因為我們看到台電整個發電量配比，火力、再生能源幾乎就占了九成，然後這個當中，百分之五十都在燃料上面，所以它的成本造成你們的發電成本、購電成本不斷上升。我看到預算中心的數據，以你們火力發電的發電成本，109年1.7塊，現在都已經要3.5了，或者是像再生能源，108年1.5，現在都要2.58，在你們購入的電力，民營電廠可能以前兩塊多，現在都要四塊多；再生能源以前要三、四塊，現在都要五塊多，所以，我其實是要說導致你們說虧損連連嘛！然後說需要追加預算嘛！如果接下來國際燃料繼續上升的狀況下，我們的電價成本也是會繼續上升啊！那你們的對策到底是什麼？我們總不可能年年追加預算啊！因為時間的關係，我想這個等一下後面再一併回復。所以我想問台電，你們目前購買多少原鄉電力？你們有購買到原鄉電力嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，因為原鄉大概都不會是發電……送上去比較多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊！因為台電的能源政策，像你們寫的設置太陽光電系統、風力機組等等，這種可能不適合我們部落的生態，我們需要的是小型電網、小型的發電系統，就像剛剛董事長所說的，所以我在這邊看到我們的獎勵不友善，部落很難追求、很難達到那個目標。我是希望應該要強化納入原住民族地區的防災需求，布建小型發電系統，然後擴大發電的效益，主要是電纜地下化，還有原鄉的發電，我希望要把它視為重要，納入整體的規劃，列為重要的政策，董事長，可以嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，細節部分我們再跟您公室討論好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["曾董事長文生：有一大堆不同的樣態……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，像你們進來做發電，常常有很多糾紛，像是萬里水力發電廠就花了很多時間在處理關係部落的認定……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個是耗時耗力、耗心力，又或者像過去台電有很多用我們原住民私人的土地，可是因為當時我們還沒有所有權，結果引起很多糾紛，因為你們會還給鄉公所，然後導致這些私有土地的地主，我們現在已經有權利回復辦法，結果還要搞到法院。"],["主席：謝謝麗華委員的質詢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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to the next year, we will propose a new plan, how to attract customers from the international market."},{"start":138.07,"end":142.952,"text":"The most important thing is that Taiwan needs to have new highlights."},{"start":142.952,"end":144.972,"text":"We are now looking at new highlights."},{"start":144.972,"end":147.253,"text":"Don't focus on a few new highlights."},{"start":147.253,"end":151.055,"text":"And then, with our entire conversation, the publicity needs to be better."},{"start":151.315,"end":160.023,"text":"不是自己的事。我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員我剛剛講的內容做得不夠完善的部分,委員現在113"},{"start":168.391,"end":182.28,"text":"還有說很多的規劃但是有沒有達成多少的目標因為現在已經還有幾個月而已對不對所以說我們要改進的地方或者是明年要怎麼樣對啊還有是說我們"},{"start":186.84,"end":206.717,"text":"禁團令大家都很關注嘛,禁團令是因為我們對我們的對岸,我們是兩國,我是講兩國啦,但是你們不敢講兩國,兩岸啦,兩岸之間的關係對不對,但是對我來說就是國家啦,我自己是認為這樣子啦。"},{"start":208.038,"end":211.423,"text":"因為每一個人都有每一個人的主人嘛所以我希望說我們要怎麼樣除了競團令沒有解除以外我們沒有其他國家可以去開放光光了嗎?"},{"start":222.512,"end":239.601,"text":"報告委員對啊我們就說像我們在台中有四處要飛越南對不對所以說我們都沒有我們全世界有197的國家我們日本還有就是其他東南亞的國家你的預計有沒有達成"},{"start":241.584,"end":243.786,"text":"除了就是我們不要說一直弄扁弄扁也弄到破頭也疊疊弄這樣有沒有好我們要有不同的國家去開放規劃我們的觀光但是我們要開發之前我們要檢視我們的國家是不是哪一個值得別人來的"},{"start":261.118,"end":263.559,"text":"或者是讓人家覺得一定要來的我們要去開放這個才是我們光光的亮點東南亞國家一直是我們希望能夠極力爭取的地方對啊但是我們就是沒有上次我有來問你了你還是說給我們的報告我還沒有看到啊這一次你說要給我的報告我們再登個核實"},{"start":283.786,"end":289.809,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":312.502,"end":313.183,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":330.144,"end":338.55,"text":"理由的部分所以我希望你要拿出一個正確的明確的一個規劃今年的哪裡沒有做到的我們要去改善要增加誰能去預算明年的不能說就預算明年你要說你要達到多少但是今年做不好啊"},{"start":349.278,"end":352.22,"text":"adequate to the current situation."},{"start":352.22,"end":356.563,"text":"做不好沒有任何的計畫,這樣子的話我們怎麼可能給你明年的費用呢?對不對?"},{"start":356.563,"end":360.205,"text":"所以我們是不是要凍結還是刪減呢?"},{"start":360.205,"end":375.836,"text":"這個真的是我們覺得不必要說只是應對啦。 我們希望的實質實際,到現在看到大家的感覺啦。 不能是就是高高在上看在上面,沒有上面的底層。"},{"start":377.377,"end":393.754,"text":"拜託拜託就是這個部分一定要有完整的計畫完整的規劃我們看的真的對我們地方逛逛的地方有幫助我們才來去看這個預算沒有的話這個預算我覺得是要砍半不只是三減而已以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":827,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時13分）謝謝主席，有請交通部部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。要請教一下，112年我們編列了56億，訂的旅客目標是600萬人，最後達標且超過了，是650萬人，這個大家都很稱讚；在113年，總預算是51億，但是今年才進來649萬人，所以我們還沒有達到目標的1,000萬人，針對這樣子的狀況，預算是不是要退回去給我們的政府？因為沒有達標，所以是不是要退回去？","再來，目前並沒有達到我們的目標，但是今年的預算有55億，我們的目標是1,186萬人，因為今年沒有達到目標，明年你編列的預算又要增加，又說目標是有增加的，但是我沒有看到你的計畫跟策略，完全沒有看到，換言之，你增加了預算，但你沒有達到預定的目標，對此請回答一下，就是你明年想要達到的，還有你的規劃是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前我們觀光署一直都在做規劃的內容，對於未來整體觀光的計畫，其實一直持續都在做，不是沒有做，一直持續都在做，今年沒有達標有很多的因素，當然也有天災的因素，還有一些或許做得不夠完善的因素都有，這個部分我們也會做檢討；在明年的部分，我們會提出一個新的計畫，如何從國際上面來引客、來攬客，最重要的其實是臺灣要有新的亮點，我們現在正在盤點新的亮點，數目不用多，我們就聚焦在幾個新的亮點，然後搭配我們對外的宣傳整體要做好……"],["麥委員玉珍：就是怪天、怪地、怪別人，都不是自己的事情，你剛剛講天災什麼的……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我剛剛講的內容，就是做得不夠完善的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：112年，那時也是疫情過後，而現在是113年，規劃大家都會講，但你的規劃是什麼卻都還沒有講出來……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，其實有很多的規劃我可以一起向您報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是有沒有達到目標呢？因為現在剩下幾個月而已，所以我們要改進的地方，或者是明年要怎麼樣改善……"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們會來改進。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！還有，禁團令大家都很關注，這是針對我們的對岸，我們是兩國，我是講「兩國」，但是你們不敢講，就是兩岸之間的關係，對不對？但是對我來說，就是國家，我自己是認為這樣子，因為每一個人都是每一個人的主人，所以除了禁團令沒有解除以外，我們沒有其他國家可以開放他們來觀光了嗎？像我們臺中都可以飛往越南，對不對？全世界有197個的國家，除了日本還有其他東南亞的國家，你的預計目標有沒有達成？我們不應一直去撞牆，撞到頭破血流，這樣有用嗎？我們應規劃開放不同的國家來我們這裡觀光，但是，在開放之前，我們要先檢視我們國家哪一個地方是值得別人來的，或者是讓人家覺得一定要來的，這時我們再去開放，這個才是我們觀光的亮點。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實東南亞國家一直是我們希望能夠極力爭取的地方。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！上次我就有問你了，你還說要給我們一份報告，但我都還沒有看到啊！這次你說要給我的報告，請問我們要等到何時？等到我下班了、我下臺了，我就兩年的任期而已，我就是等不到啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我請觀光署特別向委員報告，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們要的就是促進我們臺灣的觀光，而不是要看你的報告，現在我們各個觀光勝地都苦哈哈，很多店家都相繼關門了，大家都沒辦法開店，不是關門歇業中就是結束營業，你看到這樣難道不覺得很難過嗎？所以我們不能只把好的讓大家看到；壞的部分，你要多多去聽、多多去看，這才能真正解決我們觀光旅遊的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我希望你要拿出一個正確的、明確的規劃，今年哪裡沒有做到的，就要想辦法改善，這樣才能去編列明年的預算，不能只說明年的預算你要多少，但今年就是做不好啊！然後也沒有任何的計畫，這樣子的話，我們怎麼可能給你明年的費用呢？我們怎麼決定是要凍結還是刪減呢？我們覺得不必要就只是做個應對而已，我們希望的是實質、實際的，能看到大家所遭受的痛苦，不能只是高高在上，沒有看到下面的底層。"],["陳部長世凱：不會這樣，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：拜託！拜託！這個部分一定要有完整的計畫、完整的規劃，真的對我們地方觀光有幫助，我們才來看這部分的預算，若沒有的話，這個預算我覺得不只有刪減而已，而是要砍半，以上，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。接下來邀請李昆澤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a9d25ba2fe95be14744e208bd6b14da822bae0214b15caa08005dafe6a1b373055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:05:34 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個舊的口號，以前人家已經喊過了，可能喊的人沒有當選總統，沒有機會實現，賴清德當選了總統，希望他有機會實現，但錢花下去能不能實現，就是我們作為民意代表應該要監督的事項。","第二個部分，我們國家花了那麼多錢在大鵬灣當地投資了非常多的公共建設，在整個國家開發的計畫裡面，只要納稅人有投資下去開發當地的建設，導致那邊地皮漲價的時候，一定都有回饋的規定。所以我拜讀了從以前到現在的計畫，請部長仔細看，之前要求的是開發強度暴增，這不關你的事，這個我會去質詢內政部，但是跟交通部有關係的是什麼？我們看一下回饋的部分，本來是要求回饋土地20%、回饋金6%，然後那個土地的部分要用市價計算。但到現在變成什麼樣子，我跟部長報告一下，從26%的回饋降低到15%，而且這15%是用公告現值計算，一個是市價26%；一個是15%公告現值，我只有一個最根本的問題，當初交通部誰點頭同意將這個回饋降成這個樣子？光硬體的建設，納稅人就花了幾十億，結果納稅人投入了幾十億，開發了硬體建設以後，當地的地主，這不是您講的招商或是擴大什麼商業來投資，商業來投資那是另外一回事，而當地的地主需要回饋的，從26%市價變成15%公告現值，我請部長回去了解，第一個，這個事情是誰點頭同意的？這個事情茲事體大，不是開玩笑的；第二個，部長也可以回去了解一下，這樣子的回饋狂降，獲利的是誰？是不是屏東當地的政治人物？哪一個政治人物在大鵬灣有這麼大的土地，因為回饋狂降而大賺一筆，這不是圖利什麼是圖利？我今天質詢這兩個問題，給部長回去了解。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我們下一次在這邊質詢的時候再進入深水區，但請部長一個禮拜內先書面回復我，這個回饋狂降是誰做的決策，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。接下來邀請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157533","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157533","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a8d08e4ba3f47257f44e208bd6b14da822bae0214b15caa08b61b70df70fb98815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:59:51 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要把飛航安全視為最重要的一個原則我們還是希望說航空公司在這方面的要求尤其是自我的要求應該要提高一些"},{"start":305.776,"end":326.357,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時59分）謝謝主席，有請交通部部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長午安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：時間有限了，我就先直接切入，不過今天早上很多委員都問了，部長也都有所表示了，但是我要提醒一個部分，這是今天早上很多委員都沒有說到的，其實在這個「黃巾之亂」之前，過往我們奧運選手歸國的時候，其實也有發生類似的問題，但可能因為大家過往沒有那麼關注奧運選手的狀況，所以不太知道，大家覺得好像這是第一次，但是部長，我要跟你說，這真的不是第一次！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我知道這不是第一次，因為我在跟桃機公司通電話講這件事情的時候，不是跟總經理，也不是跟董事長，當我跟其他幹部通電話時，我說，之前我在擔任發言人時，陪院長到機場去歡送我們奧運團隊出國的時候，我有看到類似的狀況。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯！沒錯！"],["陳部長世凱：當時就有這樣的狀況，這次又是類似的狀況，我認為未來不能再發生同樣的狀況。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，而且這次還有副總統在。","我就把時間保留給下一題，我認為這是比已經有很多委員關心的問題還更要緊，就是關於國航飛航安全的問題，接下來請航政司韓司長一起上來，我們就先看一段影片，謝謝。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員培瑜：這是一個外籍旅客，部長，你知不知道他為什麼一直低頭往下？而且他完全沒有辦法好好地坐在椅背上，然後空服人員一直在跟他講話。"],["陳部長世凱：不曉得。"],["陳委員培瑜：他喝醉了，而且這個飛機還沒有起飛，但是他所坐的位置其實就是出口的位置，當時我們有收到一個陳情，有一位乘客搭乘6月20日BR67由臺北飛往倫敦，中間停曼谷的航班，當時其實旁邊的人都有聞到這個人有非常非常重的酒味，可是我們的國籍航空還是放任讓這位旅客上了飛機，上了飛機之後，他們判斷、認為他不適合坐那個位子，就要求其他旅客跟他換位子，部長，你坐過飛機嘛！那一排的位子，旁邊應該還有人，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以照理說，他如果不適合跟旁邊的人換，因為那是第一排安全出口，所以就往後一排，但是來跟我們陳情的這位朋友說，她其實是坐在那個人的後兩排，也就是離那個喝酒的人很遠，但不知道為什麼航空公司的服務人員就請這位身材相對嬌小的女性陳情人說，要求她跟這位喝醉酒的換位子，但她表示不要換位子，而且她還有告訴航空公司的人，應該把他請下飛機吧！不應該讓這麼醉的人在飛機上，後來她就寫信給航空公司的客服陳情，也要求做相關處理。","我們來看一下兩方的說法，航空公司一開始說不知道，後來知道了，但她認為是飛航、飛安問題，也提出了，但是航空公司沒有及時回應，後來航空公司給的回饋是說他們溝通未盡完善，但她認為這個草草了事的狀態真的很糟。時間有限，我想請問部長，你覺得這算不算飛安問題？"],["陳部長世凱：如果會影響到出口的安全……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯，我剛剛講他是坐出口那一排，所以確實是會影響，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：要看當時的狀況，當然他是喝醉了……"],["陳委員培瑜：他喝得很醉。"],["陳部長世凱：在喝醉的狀況底下，會不會去影響到那個安全門，如果會影響到，就是飛安問題，就一定要處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，我們來看一下這家航空公司其實過往有類似的經驗，而且不是第一次，也就是說這樣的事情一再發生，但是航空公司卻用這樣的態度來面對，部長剛也說了，如果他喝得很醉，而且他坐在安全出口那一排，如果發生了什麼事情確實就會有飛安的問題，所以部長你也這樣認為。","我們來看一下民航局給這個乘客的回復，他們說最終該外籍乘客被請下機，在民航局的回復中，民航局也認定他們的處理方法疑似涉及違反前述出口座位安排計畫規定，也就是民航局其實也認定他們的處理是不好的，但是整個看起來，我覺得還是不夠積極。","其實民航法是有相關規定的，部長，你覺得是因為罰責不夠重，導致於這樣不當行為不斷在飛機上發生，然後我們的空服人員也沒有做出適當的處理，甚至後續回復給這個乘客陳情書時的態度也只有說：我們只是溝通不夠友善。他們沒有認為自己沒有把飛安的問題處理好；可是我們剛才看到民航局的公文說，他們認為可能還是有涉及飛安的問題。部長，你自己認為是罰責的問題，還是我們後續還有什麼精進管理的措施？"],["陳部長世凱：我認為精進管理的部分，當然大家可以來討論，但是航空公司要把飛航安全視為最重要的一個原則，我們還是希望航空公司在這方面的要求，尤其是自我的要求應該要提高一些。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個案件後續我們會送給交通部，希望你們跟航空公司在溝通的時候，一定要確保我們臺灣這三家航空公司把飛安當成是最重要的事情，這個陳情人相對的意見，我們後續也會再提供，但我想這絕對不會是個案，一定會有很多通案的問題，拜託部長要積極的督導。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們會來督導。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。接下來邀請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a56f795583077c5be44e208bd6b14da822bae0214b15caa084d9f4a3faaf30f325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:48:34 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色的燈下去讓汽車在過路口的時候還是要做一個稍微停等的動作"},{"start":202.023,"end":225.31,"text":"因為在桃園市這幾年事辦了雙色溫的一個路燈因為我覺得地方政府要怎麼做包括我們公路總局有這麼多的台擠縣、台擠縣省道穿越城鎮的時候或者密集區的時候我們也會碰到嘛那我在想說奇怪了民國110年已經3年了耶因為"},{"start":228.168,"end":253.874,"text":"桃園市政府事辦了路口雙色溫來提高行人安全的一個方案然後也得到110年我們交通部第13屆道安創新的貢獻獎其中的交通工程組的第一名殊榮那到底發生什麼事呢來簡單來說他們在主要事辦的路口"},{"start":255.438,"end":279.115,"text":"就是因為現在很多的一個道路包括我們省道都一樣大部分都用穿透率比較高的色溫大概3000K啊3000K的黃光偏黃光省線都是這樣那他們在改善的過程中加裝入口的路燈但是採用的是五色溫5000K就是偏白光所以整個視覺看上去"},{"start":280.515,"end":307.764,"text":" bicyclist 駕駛人在三、四十公尺的時候就發覺這直覺這直覺不是要看什麼符號直覺式狀況變了就是直覺式的提醒結果效果是下一頁實踐的一個效果呢連續事辦了三年從109年110年得獎之後那持續的去看到去年年底大概在這個事辦的入口的狀況"},{"start":309.83,"end":333.12,"text":"交通事故造勢、月間造勢的這個行人受傷傷亡的事件大概降低了將近4成那我在想說這個你們最佳貢獻獎那就貢獻啊貢獻給誰呢現在到底貢獻給誰呢當然桃園我看他還要繼續做啦那這個你頒完獎之後就回去休息了嗎那這個部分基本上"},{"start":334.04,"end":335.261,"text":"﹐一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":349.915,"end":366.467,"text":"報告委員我們的這個照明規範在年底之前會修訂完成那您現在所提供的這個建議相當的好我覺得我們的相關單位應該要把它列入討論而且要把它列入推廣的一個範圍那再拜託委員可以的話指教我們一些資料讓我們來特別來討論這個件事"},{"start":368.208,"end":368.729,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":389.77,"end":390.99,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":414.298,"end":428.723,"text":"各個城市的標準盡量給他一個指示能夠一致化如果真的覺得這樣的又成本又不貴又好的話我覺得希望交通部和公路局先做好不好這個我們先來自己做然後再來推廣"},{"start":429.54,"end":454.084,"text":"好下一頁那接下來就簡短齁這個要拜託一下齁那一天特別謝謝我們部長齁跟幾位包括署長局長來到我們中壢的青埔齁那時候很多的我們的鄉親也非常關心明年的台灣燈會在桃園要舉辦齁那我們在九年前105年那時候辦了一次當時的統計的參觀人數啊超過兩千萬人齁然後持續到"},{"start":457.245,"end":460.686,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":484.995,"end":505.286,"text":"從九年前的大約評估兩萬五千個車格現在只剩八千多個現在他們的一個情況還好還好有集結因為一百零五的時候集結還沒有上路集結但是雙北的我們希望觀光客到處會引導但是最重要的自己開車的我們要必須這個轉運點這輸運計畫很重要下一頁"},{"start":511.327,"end":530.735,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審"},{"start":532.045,"end":555.961,"text":"那我就直接講就是去年的一個台南燈會在交通輸運接駁的一個計畫的補助那去年台燈會因為你那天檢報嘛只有觀光署檢報說這個輸運計畫就是1200萬多的好像找不到經費但是我們幫你找出來了好不好我們也跟台南市政府大家來幫忙一下"},{"start":556.801,"end":567.033,"text":"他們整個輸入計畫總共拿了4900萬那其中有3700萬是從公路局拿的所以我想這個公路局這個經費還是有吧"},{"start":571.758,"end":585.27,"text":"公路局有經費,不過就是說因為接駁計畫基本上每個都市他比如說他的設置的地點然後接駁的路線然後每一個接駁路線開的班次所以這個部分大概就是說他的需求計畫過來我們會協助他們"},{"start":589.877,"end":591.738,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":612.244,"end":628.012,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":628.012,"end":628.833,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":645.535,"end":659.53,"text":"adequ.去年度這個台南燈會你補助3700萬差不多我們希望你們審視完整個計畫該調整該怎麼做但是經費要拜託一定要到位好不好這一定會協助好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":743,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時48分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長好。我們就直接進入主題，「行人地獄」大概是幾年前有些國外媒體有這樣的一個報導，好像一直纏著我們臺灣交通的情況，尤其是在交通委員會特別有感覺，我也看到交通部及地方政府也做了很多努力，有很多的想法，包括現在很多的科技執法也在各地設立，然後從去年開始，違規記點也上路了，很多罰則也加重了，甚至我也覺得宣導也做的滿多的，可是我們看這3年，全國行人的死傷數還是微幅的增加。上禮拜我擔任主席的時候特別問到路口的部分整體的死傷數是重點，我們要先處理，看怎麼樣解決，因為看這3年來的數據，在路口的死傷數大約都占了一半左右。你上個禮拜也特別說，針對於路口的部分，很多的照明實在是滿差的，因為大的馬路有時候是幾十米一支路燈，剛好路口那裡有時候有、有時候沒有，有時候距離遠、有時候距離近。","我們來看一下行人交通事故死亡的部分，剛剛是傷亡都算在內，光是死亡的部分，我們也發覺100年、110年到112年這3年算一算，夜間完完全全黑掉，要靠人工燈光輔助，這個夜間時段，3年加起來大概有六成五的死亡事故是在夜間發生的。我想到你上禮拜有特別說路口的燈光改善確實是一個可行的方向，現在有沒有想到具體要怎麼做？從哪裡開始做？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前在相關法規上的律定，針對亮度的部分我們做新的設置、新的要求，目前正在做檢討當中，我們希望未來所有路口的亮度要做到足夠，這是一方面；二方面是剛剛委員問的是亮度的部分，也就是路口的燈光亮度，另外針對閃黃燈的部分，我們希望未來其他的路口，在夜間雖然車少，但不要用閃黃燈，我們還是用三色的燈，讓汽車在過路口的時候還是要做一個稍微停等的動作。"],["魯委員明哲：桃園市這幾年試辦了雙色溫的路燈方案，因為我覺得地方政府要怎麼做，包括公路總局有這麼多的台幾線、台幾線省道，穿越城鎮或者密集區的時候也會碰到嘛！從民國110年開始已經3年了，桃園市政府試辦了路口雙色溫來提高行人安全的方案，也得到110年交通部第13屆道安創新貢獻獎──交通工程組第一名的殊榮。那我在想說奇怪了，到底發生什麼事呢？簡單來說，他們在主要試辦的路口，因為現在很多的道路包括我們省道都一樣，大部分都用穿透率比較高的，色溫大概3000K的黃光、偏黃光，省縣都是這樣，他們在改善的過程中加裝路口的路燈，但採用的是色溫5000K偏白光的燈光，所以整個視覺看上去，駕駛人在30、40公尺外就發覺了，這是直覺啊！你知道嗎？這是直覺，不是看什麼符號，直覺就是狀況變了，就是直覺式的提醒，連續試辦了3年，從110年得獎之後持續的看到去年年底的試辦效果是，這個試辦路口的交通因夜間肇事造成行人受傷傷亡的事件大概降低了將近四成，我在想你們這個最佳貢獻獎到底貢獻給誰呢？當然我看桃園還是要繼續做，但是你們頒完獎之後就回去休息了嗎？這個部分基本上是用最少的成本，反正燈要裝嘛！只是要裝什麼樣色溫的燈而已，所以透過裝不同色溫的路燈讓視覺有直覺的感受，我們能不能把這個部分的明細資料給你們，可不可以推廣一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們的照明規範在年底之前會修訂完成，您現在所提供的這個建議相當的好，我覺得我們的相關單位應該把它列入討論，而且要列入推廣的範圍，再拜託委員，可以的話指教我們一些資料，讓我們來特別來討論這件事。"],["魯委員明哲：好的，你們給了他交通工程的貢獻獎，我是真的希望有貢獻出去才有意義啦！"],["陳部長世凱：要推廣到其他地方。"],["魯委員明哲：我們也希望兩個方向先做，第一個就是請公路局去盤點重要的省道，穿越進入市鎮碰到的那種很大的行人穿越道，拜託！從交通部就可以開始做，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：公路局先做。"],["魯委員明哲：你們先盤點有哪些路口，然後先來試辦；第二個是結合地方政府，年底修改法規的時候，訂出SOP讓大家都一樣，因為你知道的嘛！開車有時候不見得都是熟的路，我們經常開出去，大概有一半時間都是開到其他鄉鎮，路也不熟，所以到了各縣市，儘量給各個城市一個指示，標準能夠一致化，這樣做的成本既不貴、成果又好的話，我希望交通部、公路總局先做，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們先來自己做，然後再來推廣。"],["魯委員明哲：接下來要拜託一下，那天特別謝謝我們部長跟幾位署長、局長來到我們中壢的青埔，當時很多鄉親也非常關心明年臺灣燈會要在桃園舉辦，我們在9年前即105年辦了一次，當時的參觀人數據統計超過2,000萬人，今年又回到桃園舉辦，桃園市盤點地點剛好還是在原來的地點，一樣是在青埔，只是差別在於青埔經過這9年，當年那些看起來空空的可以停車的空地大概有六成都不見了，變成高樓大廈，承載了自己住戶要回家的交通量，剩下可停車的空地數量從9年前大約25,000個車格到現在只剩八千多個，這是現在他們的停車情況，但還好有機捷，因為105年的時候機捷還沒有上路，我們希望雙北的觀光客到時候會引導搭乘機捷，但是最重要的是自己開車的遊客必須要設轉運點，相關的輸運計畫很重要。下一頁影片是部長在講話，內容是「桃園的燈會已經辦了很多年，其他地方的燈會，我們今年在桃園，過去其他地方有的，桃園不可以沒有；其他有的，桃園一定要有，而且不但要有……」，你在旁邊偷笑啊！這就是我今天要問你的，我在想你這句話講得是真的滿符合我的意見。","我直接講，去年臺南辦燈會在交通輸運接駁計畫的補助方面，因為你那天只有觀光署的簡報說這個輸運計畫就是1,200萬元，多的好像找不到經費，但是我們幫你找出來了，我們也跟臺南市政府……大家來幫忙一下，他們整個輸運計畫總共拿了4,900萬元，其中有3,700萬元是從公路局拿的，所以我想公路局這個經費還是有吧？公路局講一下好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：公路局有經費，不過因為接駁計畫基本上每個都市，比如說設置的地點、接駁的路線、每個接駁路線開的班次等等，這個部分大概就是他的需求計畫送過來，我們會協助他們。"],["魯委員明哲：因為去年的臺南燈會，其實也算今年年初啦！臺南燈會是從大型活動輸運供應計畫項下補助的，其實他們原本要4,200萬元，你們只補助了2,700萬元，公文退來退去、退來退去，再次批變成3,700萬元，都有一個過程的啦！我只是在這邊跟部長報告，就是要如同上一頁你所說，別人有的，我們一定有，還可能更好。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們核實啦！就是說桃園那邊有需要什麼樣子的量，開出來，然後我們大家來討論路線，如果真正有需求，公路局一定要幫忙。"],["魯委員明哲：好的，局長，部長已經承諾好幾次了，現在計畫已經提上來了，應該是在觀光署吧，總共5,000萬元，目前只有1,200萬元有著落，還剩的3,800萬元剛好跟去年你們補助臺南燈會的3,700萬元差不多，我們希望你們審視完整個計畫，該調整、該怎麼做，但是拜託經費一定要到位，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：這一定會協助，沒有問題。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157531","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157531","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a07c8d83a6c3e8a0744e208bd6b14da822bae0214b15caa080303f983ebd4ce0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:38:32 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委員好今天有看到交通部114年度的施政計畫那其中有提到縫合交通段列還有提供無縫連結運輸服務建構北中南都會區捷運路網那本席要再次的請部長寫出一件事那本席"},{"start":30.982,"end":46.297,"text":"當任立委以來非常重視我們地方的交通建設那過去不管是在交通委員會還是在院會有多次針對三一線延伸巴的案進行諮詢那從今年的9月20日交通部呈報行政院後至今68天了"},{"start":48.278,"end":77.394,"text":"完全沒有任何消息本席這段時間也有問行政院只得到陳和中的答覆本席想再次的請部長提醒院長我們盡快來將本案核定以利後續的作業我們會跟行政院這邊來溝通看可不可以速度再加快因為我們交通部這邊的意見都已經完整了都沒有問題也送到了行政院國發會那邊也應該意見也都已經整合了這個部分我們就請院那邊我們再加速"},{"start":78.155,"end":86.408,"text":"期待部長的好消息主席我們有接著請我們高工局趙局長還有陶基的范總經理"},{"start":94.418,"end":114.531,"text":"局長還有總經理本席在上週三有詢問陶吉未來周邊的聯外道路是否有連結第三的聯外道路還有相關議題陶吉當時有回覆本席有規劃國一甲作為聯外道路今天我們就國一甲的設計還有規劃部分這邊要就教部長還有局長"},{"start":115.612,"end":127.345,"text":"國一甲主要是航空城計劃興建道路之一。它的目的是為了要紓解航空城港區還有淘機的客貨運並且改善台四線南侃交通擁捨的問題。我們看到這個計劃還有這個規劃。就本席了解目前規劃中"},{"start":132.751,"end":151.282,"text":"桃武交流道的設計規劃至機場的連外道,那部長、局長沒有錯吧?是,是沒有錯。是桃武交流道的部分。那目前占地高架會經過航翔路、碧新碧道路連接現有的航勤南路,將原本通往台四線的道路廢除。那這邊要請問部長還有局長,目前的規劃是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":152.799,"end":153.4,"text":"國醫甲必須找空間"},{"start":168.431,"end":168.852,"text":"附屬單位預算案附屬單"},{"start":188.711,"end":200.045,"text":"現有的道路的話他在那個交接的地方我們需要說那個交尾的部分單純化是不是要再匯儲或是要保留的話那這個我們還要再看看是後面的可以改為專用出口嗎"},{"start":202.212,"end":229.676,"text":"這個要看那個淘機那邊後面的一個處理啦那基本上來講我們是說以現在既有的國一甲的閘道為優先因為未來的大量車流一定是走那個閘道那至於說橋下的空間我們也會佈設他的檢接國師台四線的一個閘道那個地方道路也會佈設是,如果我們將現有道路改為專用出口的話這樣可以讓那個機場他的道路增加也可以紓解國一甲他的閘道車流量那部長您的看法是?"},{"start":230.556,"end":252.04,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們有桃集公司跟公路局還有高工局還有就是說桃園市政府就是地方政府比較了解地方的交通的狀況大家一起來會商那如果會商之後覺得這樣子的建議會是比較好的方式那或許就會採用這樣的建議但是目前我這樣聽起來應該是桃集公司跟高工局他們希望路線相對單純一些路線相對單純一些"},{"start":255.341,"end":281.418,"text":"今天早上也有詢問桃園市政府他們說這個設計和規劃都是在交通部然後是由高工局那也在請高工局這邊和桃園市政府還有桃機公司進行討論看是不是不要將這個將這個道路廢除啊好啊可以我們是不是就是大家各單位大家再會議一下是是我們在開閣會再做一次檢討對我們把內容再檢討一次看怎麼樣對地方的交通最有幫助的我們就選擇那樣的方案"},{"start":281.732,"end":299.053,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":313.639,"end":337.827,"text":"那部長您這邊看到看到什麼樣的問題?是就是行人過路的過程當中如果太慢的話其實對於旁邊的車子的運行也大概會有一些問題。是那駕駛有表示齁如果不禮讓行人的話要被罰六千如果禮讓然後闖紅燈的話會罰兩千七啊。部長如果您是駕駛的話您會怎麼辦?遇到這樣的狀況那會有該有什麼樣的權利救濟?"},{"start":338.775,"end":352.69,"text":"我還是會等行人啦我還是會停等行人啦我覺得現在我們人本交通很重要那也以行人為優先還是以行人為優先如果是我自己我會選擇先停等但是如果假使這樣的駕駛"},{"start":353.851,"end":371.437,"text":"他要面對6000或者是2700的這個罰則的這個問題的時候我想我們是不是也應該要稍微檢討一下就是說如果他在等行人的過程當中所以造成了他有這個有可能闖紅燈的這個罰則的話那這個部分可能我們要檢討OK那我們接著看第二部影片"},{"start":403.846,"end":426.797,"text":"請問部長在我們可以看到行人和騎士斑馬線上是可以等計程車的嗎?您認為騎士的做法對嗎?騎士的作為在那個地方繼續等行人這個做法是正確但是斑馬線上不應該作為在等計程車的一個地方斑馬線就是行人穿越道就應該要走過去"},{"start":427.677,"end":441.856,"text":"那當然速度也要加快在可以的範圍之內自己速度要加快因為你越快速通過其實對自己的安全越有保障那我們目前現在有沒有相關的法律可以對這三位民眾做進行約束他們的行為進行約束我是不是請師長"},{"start":443.455,"end":445.336,"text":"根據這個影片他們要怎麼被開罰呢?根據這個影片他們要怎麼被開罰呢?"},{"start":469.48,"end":471.481,"text":"關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":527.321,"end":530.405,"text":"部長、市長,我們面對這樣的行人,你們兩位會怎麼做?"},{"start":537.073,"end":537.873,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":558.226,"end":585.071,"text":"巴馬縣上面遛烏龜巴馬縣上面等計程車巴馬縣上面的逗留者目前的罰款只有500元那這個500元能夠減少類似的行為嗎那本席今天沒有邀部長還有市長我們就是直接的做回答那今天請部長思考這樣的問題是這個部分確實是要檢討就是說行人在過馬路的過程當中還是要專心還是要快速那這個除了教育面之外其他的部分我們也來做檢討OK好謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我們先請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：今天有看到交通部114年度的施政計畫，其中有提到縫合交通斷鏈還有提供無縫連結運輸服務，建構北中南都會區捷運路網，本席要再次請部長協助一件事，本席擔任立委以來非常重視地方的交通建設，過去不管是在交通委員會還是在院會，有多次針對三鶯線延伸八德案進行質詢，從今年的9月20日，交通部呈報行政院後至今68天了，完全沒有任何消息，本席這段時間也有問行政院，只得到陳核中的答復，本席想再次請部長提醒院長，我們儘快將本案核定，以利後續的作業。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會跟行政院溝通，看可不可以速度再加快，因為我們交通部這邊的意見都已經完整了，都沒有問題，也送到了行政院，國發會那邊應該意見也都已經整合了，這個部分我就請院那邊再加速。"],["邱委員若華：OK，期待部長的好消息。"],["陳部長世凱：好。謝謝！"],["邱委員若華：主席，接著請高公局趙局長還有桃機的范總經理。局長還有總經理，本席在上週三有詢問過桃機未來周邊是否有連結第三聯外道路還有相關的議題，桃機當時回復本席說有規劃國一甲作為聯外道路，那麼我們今天就國一甲的設計還有規劃部分就教於部長和局長。國一甲主要是航空城計畫興建道路之一，它的目的是為了要紓解航空城港區還有桃機的客貨運並且改善台4線南崁交通壅塞的問題，我們看到這個計畫還有這個規劃，就本席瞭解，目前規劃中桃5交流道設計規劃至機場的聯外道，部長、局長沒有錯吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["邱委員若華：桃5交流道的部分，目前暫訂高架會經過航翔路並新闢道路連接現有的航勤南路，將原本通往台4線的道路廢除，請問部長還有局長，目前規劃是這樣子嗎？"],["趙局長興華：是的，因為原來的航勤南北路跟台4線目前是一個斜交的路口，現在國一甲要進到這個路的閘道的部分時必須要找空間，就是從空運園區那邊過來的時候必須要找空間以便布設閘道的位置，我們在這個地方的一個協調的方案，我們跟桃園市政府跟桃機公司有共同協商，就選擇這個方案來做處理。"],["邱委員若華：所以這個是桃園市政府、高公局還有桃機一起共同的討論結果？"],["趙局長興華：是。"],["邱委員若華：這邊我們要討論的是為什麼要將現有的道路廢除？"],["趙局長興華：現有道路交界的地方，我們希望那個交尾的部分單純化，至於是要廢除或是保留，這個我們還要再看看後面的狀況。"],["邱委員若華：可以改為專用出口嗎？"],["趙局長興華：這個要看桃機那邊後面的處理，基本上來講，我們是以現在既有的國一甲的閘道為優先，因為未來大量車流一定是走那個閘道，至於說橋下的空間，我們也會有布設銜接台4線的閘道，那個地方道路也會布設。"],["邱委員若華：如果我們將現有道路改為專用出口的話，這樣可以讓機場的道路增加，也可以紓解國一甲的閘道車流量，部長您的看法如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們由桃機公司跟公路局、高公局還有桃園市政府，地方政府比較了解地方的交通狀況，大家一起來會商，如果會商之後覺得這樣子的建議會是比較好的方式，或許就會採用這樣的建議。但是目前我聽起來，應該是桃機公司跟高公局他們希望路線相對單純一些。"],["趙局長興華：是，底下有平面道路的規劃。"],["邱委員若華：今天早上我也有詢問桃園市政府，他們說這個設計和規劃都是在交通部，是由高公局處理，所以也再請高公局和桃園市政府還有桃機公司進行討論，看是不是不要將這個道路廢除。"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們是不是就是各單位大家再會一下。"],["趙局長興華：是，我們再開個會，再做一次檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們把內容再檢討一次，看怎麼樣是對地方的交通最有幫助的，我們就選擇那樣的方案。"],["邱委員若華：OK！謝謝部長，請局長先回座。","接下來本席要和部長分享三段影片，是國人在道路上都會碰到的狀況，我們先看第一個影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：請問部長您在這邊看到什麼樣的問題？"],["陳部長世凱：就是行人過馬路的過程當中如果太慢，其實對於旁邊車子的運行也大概會造成一些問題。"],["邱委員若華：駕駛表示，如果不禮讓行人的話要被罰6,000元，如果禮讓然後闖紅燈的話會罰2,700元，部長如果您是駕駛的話，您會怎麼辦？遇到這樣的狀況，該有什麼樣的權利救濟？"],["陳部長世凱：我還是會停下等行人啦！我覺得現在人本交通很重要，還是以行人為優先，如果是我自己，我會選擇先停等，但是假使這樣的駕駛他要面對6,000元或是2,700元的罰則問題的時候，我想我們是不是也應該要稍微檢討一下，如果他因為在等行人的過程當中造成有可能觸犯闖紅燈這個罰則的話，那這個部分可能我們要檢討。"],["邱委員若華：OK！我們接著看第二部影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：在這裡我們可以看到行人和騎士，請問部長，斑馬線上是可以等計程車的嗎？您認為騎士的作法對嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這樣說好了，騎士在那個地方繼續等行人，這個作法是正確的，但是斑馬線上不應該做為等計程車的地方，斑馬線就是行人穿越道，行人就應該要走過去，當然速度也要加快，在可以的範圍之內自己速度要加快，因為越快速通過其實對自己的安全越有保障。"],["邱委員若華：我們目前有沒有相關的法律可以對這3位民眾的行為進行約束？"],["陳部長世凱：我是不是請司長說明。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，按照現行處罰條例的規定，如果在人行穿越道上面有一些相關嬉戲這樣子行為的話，基本上是可以處這個行人500元罰鍰。"],["邱委員若華：所以是違反道交條例第七十八條嗎？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["邱委員若華：那您覺得當下這行人他會被開罰嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，這個東西基本上……"],["邱委員若華：若根據這個影片，他們要怎麼被開罰呢？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，就這個影片裡面的行為而言，大概有凸顯到一個部分，就是國人呼叫計程車如何選擇比較正確的位置，這個部分確實應該要加強教育跟宣導。"],["邱委員若華：沒關係！我們看第三段影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：請問部長、司長，面對這樣的行人，你們兩位會怎麼做？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，原則上還是以安全為優先，如果真的是碰到這種極端的個案，原則上還是以大家安全為優先。"],["邱委員若華：現在我們提高汽機車駕駛人的罰則，對於不遵守交通規則的人，比如說像我們看到的在斑馬線上面溜烏龜、斑馬線上面等計程車、斑馬線上面的逗留者等等，目前的罰款只有500元，這500元能夠減少類似的行為嗎？本席今天沒有要部長還有司長直接回答，只是請部長思考這樣的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分確實是要檢討，就是說行人在過馬路的過程當中還是要專心，還是要快速，這個除了教育面之外，其他的部分我們也來做檢討。"],["邱委員若華：OK！謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。","接下來邀請魯明哲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157530","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157530","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a3158ae564bf659ad6e756e96dd8ac7a32bae0214b15caa089a2554e42ef972245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:12:49 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部長好 兩位署長好 我的標題很清楚 補足沿管工程能力如期完工 講自來水 完善性能規範符合IEA的標準 我們來看一下部長 上次很關心在院會裡面有跟你請教嘛 過去第3期第4期自來水地區的供水改善計畫呢 總額花了143點多 屏東就超過一半快71億股"},{"start":45.641,"end":59.229,"text":"平衡自來水普及率在我們這樣共同努力之下不到5成,現在已經到了破7成了,但全台是9成5。我們看看過去在114年度自來水公司的副總單位預算當中,第5期的114年度,它一共有13.5億。"},{"start":61.07,"end":87.808,"text":"全部是75億,5年是75億,一百萬人總額是用15.3億,我們現在看但是我統計一下,在那屏東地區有27個案子,總工程會就要11.13億你明年度有15.3億,屏東這邊就需要11.13億你覺得有沒有辦法來幫忙支持?錢製作都完成囉我請這個,署長來,署長"},{"start":90.285,"end":90.325,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":103.063,"end":103.083,"text":"這簡單講啦齁"},{"start":124.641,"end":149.096,"text":"全臺灣其實包商現在屏東的工程只剩屏東可以做了啦當然重點是因為我們預算總預算的審查延宕本來你們一定10月就要公布要核定的名單給四海水公司名人補助名單李總在這裡嘛對不對因為你們沒有核定嘛水公司在我們屏東都不敢講話部長會打包票明年屏東該做的就一定可以做"},{"start":150.194,"end":152.235,"text":"臺電新達電廠混氫發電的試驗目前是用藍綠氫、藍氫還是灰氫?目前是灰氫那什麼時候可以導入藍綠氫或者是藍氫?因為灰氫還是有碳排"},{"start":173.861,"end":198.38,"text":"現在跟這個中央研究院有在對 你們在研究呢 中研院攜手台電去碳燃氫的發電企劃 啟動對不對 是 但我們知道石化燃料也好 天然氣也好 它經過碳補桌 經過高溫裂解純粹 有燃氫 這是碳補桌的 但是如果你產出固碳 固態碳 然後呢 可以把它碳補桌把它存放著 那就是燃綠情勢這樣嘛"},{"start":200.422,"end":213.452,"text":"國際上是要藍青,要到一定程度才能叫藍綠青,IEA發布的標準有一個A級的強度,請問目前台灣規範的碳排的強度標準,多少才叫藍青?"},{"start":218.137,"end":244.819,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們台灣還沒有訂出標準還沒訂出來我們都參考國際的規範是的就是要問這個部長您知道我們在說藍青藍綠青灰青的時候其實我們自己的藍青的標準跟藍綠青的都還沒有訂出來往下看所以我們看看目前中油跟台電二氧化碳的風存計畫去碳藍青後它有一個CO2的碳風存也會產生固態碳這也包括高碳排我們也可以碳補儲產生的固態碳"},{"start":245.74,"end":246.58,"text":"報告委員 因為要解決這個碳的問題 其實有很多的方法"},{"start":272.213,"end":295.979,"text":"那我想我們會基於成本我們會基於成本的考量這個來做一個將來發展的研究好那最重要的就是這個這一頁因為時間的關係齁能源署要趕快訂出台灣的碳補桌利用及封存的規範可以嗎進度如何這部分是環境部他們這是環境部訂的我不是能源署我就問環境部長好那既然如此往下看齁"},{"start":296.636,"end":312.578,"text":"那麼我最後一個問題就是嘉青站卡到了我們土地管制規則中游只有12%可以兼營嘉青站而且我在3月11號的時候問你們的次長他說要回去評估評估到現在比照充電站現行的交通站可以兼營嘉青站進度如何"},{"start":315.372,"end":335.88,"text":"這個部分我們已經有相關的公告, 加金站、加油站是可以在符合規範下, 什麼時候可以開始設置?台灣中油可以開始設置?我們現在是第一個先由中油還是先把第一個示範站先做出來, 之後給其他的業者。所以現在法規上已經可以了是嗎?英文觀念好, 上一條上一條。都市計畫裡面的事情, 限制20條之一, 本來就有加油氣站, 請問這個氣是什麼氣?"},{"start":337.401,"end":338.021,"text":"請研議青能產業相關的規範與國際能源的"},{"start":366.306,"end":367.947,"text":"準確 IELTS準確呢?"},{"start":367.947,"end":385.242,"text":"那麼避免影響CBAN的可行性,一個月提書面報告,可以嗎?可以提嗎?讓環境部全場,最後呢,讓加油站經營充電站的路徑,循這個路徑,讓加油站得以經營加輕站,一個月提出來,可以嗎?好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝兩位組長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時12分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請郭部長，還有能源署的游署長、水利署的賴署長。"],["主席：請郭部長、游署長、賴署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、兩位署長好。我的標題很清楚，「補足延管工程人力如期完工」，講的是自來水；還有「完善氫能規範符合IEA標準」。我們來看一下，部長，本席很關心，上次在院會裡面有跟你請教，過去第三期、第四期無自來水地區的供水改善計畫總額花了一百四十三點多億，屏東就超過一半，近71.5億，屏東自來水普及率在我們這樣共同努力之下，從不到五成到現在已經破七成了，但全台是九成五，我們看到在114年度自來水公司的附屬單位預算當中，第五期的114年度共15.3億，全部（5年）是75億，114年總額是15.3億。但是我統計一下，單單屏東地區有27個案子，總工程費就要11.13億，明年度有15.3億，屏東這邊就需要11.13億，你覺得有沒有辦法來幫忙支持？前置作業都完成了哦！"],["郭部長智輝：我請署長來說明。"],["賴署長建信：為了達成這些目標，早日提升屏東的自來水普及率，我們用幾個方式來處理，經費的部分感謝行政院核定了，但是採購策略的部分也是可以思考。另外，你剛剛講的人力補充，事實上部長也在自來水協會的大會上針對台水公司技術工部分希望要提升薪資，然後希望有更多人來投入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我跟你請教，簡單講，現在員工不好請，全臺灣包商……現在屏東的工程只剩屏東可以做了，當然重點是因為我們總預算的審查延宕，本來你們預定10月就要核定公布自來水公司補助名單，李總也在這裡，對不對？因為你們沒有核定，水公司在我們屏東都不敢講話。部長可否打包票，明年屏東該做的就一定可以做？"],["郭部長智輝：一定可以做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，該做就應該要做，好，謝謝兩位。","我們繼續往下看，接下來是能源署長的部分，這邊說台電興達電廠混氫發電的試驗，目前是用藍綠氫、藍氫還是灰氫？"],["郭部長智輝：目前是灰氫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前是灰氫，那什麼時候可以導入藍綠氫或是藍氫？因為灰氫還是有碳排啊！"],["郭部長智輝：現在跟中研院有在討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，你們在研究，中研院攜手台電啟動去碳燃氫的發電計畫，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們知道石化燃料也好，天然氣也好，它經過碳捕捉、經過高溫裂解，純粹有藍氫，這是碳捕捉的；但是如果你產出固態碳，然後可以把它碳捕捉、把它存放的那就是藍綠氫，是這樣嘛？往下一頁，國際上它是藍氫要到一定程度才能叫藍綠氫，以IEA發布的這個標準，它有一個A級的強度，請問目前臺灣規範的碳排的強度標準，多少才叫藍氫？署長。"],["郭部長智輝：我請署長跟你報告。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，目前我們臺灣還沒有訂出標準……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，還沒訂出來。"],["游署長振偉：我們都參考國際的規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，就是要問這個。部長，您知道我們在說藍氫、藍綠氫、灰氫的時候，其實我們自己的藍氫、藍綠氫的標準都還沒有訂出來。所以我們來看看目前中油跟台電二氧化碳的封存計畫，去碳藍氫後，它有一個CO2的碳封存，也會產生固態碳，這也包括高碳排，我們也可以碳捕捉，產生了固態碳。但現在問題來了，固態碳再利用的話，它還是會排碳，所以說碳封存才是讓這個碳不會再到大氣裡面去的根本之道，所以中油在2022年有啟動一個二氧化碳封存技術三年研究計畫，在臺中電廠要進行碳捕捉跟封存，你覺得未來是不是要擴大來進行辦理？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為要解決碳的問題其實有很多的方法，我想我們會基於成本的考量來做將來發展的研究。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最重要的就是這一頁，能源署要趕快訂出臺灣的碳捕捉利用及封存的規範，可以嗎？進度如何？"],["郭部長智輝：這部分是環境部他們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是環境部訂的？不是能源署？好，我去問環境部長。既然如此，往下看，我最後一個問題就是加氫站卡到了我們土地管制規則，中油只有12%可以兼營加氫站，而且我在3月11號的時候問你們的次長，他說要回去評估，評估到現在，比照充電站，現行的加油站可以兼營加氫站，目前進度如何？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，這個部分我們已經有相關的公告，加氫站是可以在符合規範下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候？臺灣中油何時可以開始設置？"],["游署長振偉：我們現在請中油還是先把第一個示範站做出來之後，給其他的業者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以現在法規上已經可以了，是嗎？因為都市計畫法施行細則裡面的第二十九條之一本來就有加油（氣）站，請問這個「氣」是什麼氣？"],["游署長振偉：這個是天然氣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是氫氣嘛，對不對？部長知道嗎？現在的規定可以加天然氣，不能加氫氣，這很荒謬啊！天然氣在危險防制層次上比氫氣更高，對不對？好，往下一頁，所以你們只要去改加油站的設置規則就可以了嘛！你們汽機車電池的充電及更換服務設施，你們直接改在底下的管理規則就可以充電了，所以你們趕快去改這個管理規則就可以加氫了，好不好？部長可以承諾嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請研議氫能產業相關的規範，依國際能源IEA的標準訂定，避免影響CBAM的可行性，一個月提出書面報告，可以嗎？可以提嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以提報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：讓環境部……。","最後，研議「以現行加油站兼營充電站法規路徑，使加油站得兼營加氫站」之方案，一個月內提出來，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長，謝謝兩位署長。"],["主席：請陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","請林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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加上對加幣貨幣友善的候選人幾乎他進入到美國的國會那麼我們各界也預期加幣貨幣會在有利的監管環境中似乎這個方向是會蓬勃發展是不是啊依照您的看法"},{"start":426.065,"end":450.101,"text":"這部分有關加密貨幣的部分我們講這個金管會這個部分以及央行這個部分都會在做處理在做處理那換句話說包括近期比特幣價格飆升那也是預估是朝在有利的監管環境當中那麼加密貨幣會蓬勃發展"},{"start":451.522,"end":478.478,"text":"目前來說有關虛擬資產的部分目前來說在台灣並沒有把它認定為是貨幣而是把它認為是資產是一個資產那換句話說我們目前針對於加幣貨幣交易所只有營業稅跟營利事業所得稅嘛對不對這個部分因為它是資產所以它的交易也涉及到所得稅"},{"start":480.131,"end":497.677,"text":"對,所以那對於個人或者是法人在交易中獲利的部分我們要怎麼樣去明確的來克稅規範有沒有這個方向在眼裡這個部分依法還是根據我們的所得稅法裡面來做規範對"},{"start":500.182,"end":518.817,"text":"對,但是部長,到目前為止因為美國明年1月份一組入了美國的白宮那方向是如此那整個世界的潮流到底會怎麼樣那我方也應該要因應以對呀"},{"start":519.838,"end":532.567,"text":"因為貨幣是世界通的啊,資產也是世界通的啊那在就個人或者是法人的交易當中獲利的這個部分我們有沒有朝這個方向會有明確的課稅規範"},{"start":536.756,"end":560.807,"text":"會有的那你們現在在研擬大概會什麼時候會給社會大眾來說明呢我想這個請複製署署長來跟你們回答好嗎你告訴我時間點就好了報告委員因為我們現在加密貨幣的課稅是按照現行手續法規定那原則規定有的那細節的部分如果需要研定我們還有另外還有查核機制的部分我們一起來處理那"},{"start":561.687,"end":562.107,"text":"五立法委員質詢"},{"start":591.438,"end":592.741,"text":"我們到邱志偉委員就結束了,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":783,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時8分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請經濟部次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長好，我們再就能源政策來做討論。我的簡報上註解執政黨為了貫徹錯誤的能源政策，造成台電公司經營困難，同時行政院於5月2日通過行政院主計總處所編113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案裡，預計要再撥補台電1,000億協助台電永續經營。我們也看到，在114年度的預算裡頭，政府也編列了撥補1,000億公務預算，如果加上這2,000億的話，換句話說，還有之前的3,000億，等於到明年會有5,000億。因為我們在10月16號才漲電價，在這樣的情況之下，民眾都說被剝了兩層皮，一方面漲價，一方面用追加預算或公務預算來撥補之，因為大家都知道這些錢都來自人民的稅金，所以說一隻牛剝兩層皮，坊間是這麼樣認定的！但是本席還是認為，如果說靠漲電價、挖國庫才能夠救台電，次長，你是產業的專家，我願意相信這樣子的論點應該是不成熟的，是嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，沒有剝兩層皮啦！因為10月份這次漲的時候是只有產業那部分漲，民生或是表後的75%那一塊都沒有調漲。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，你是產業的內行人，因為你漲這一邊，整個通膨還是一樣漲。"],["連次長錦漳：但是相對是少。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教你，針對議題回答，如果靠漲電價以及挖國庫才能夠救台電，還有沒有其他的方法？"],["連次長錦漳：我們現在也在責成台電在財務上……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有沒有其他的方法？"],["連次長錦漳：要去做一些改善，第一個是在本身節約方面，譬如燃料的價格在採購方面，看能不能做一些比較妥善的採購搭配。第二個就是有些資產重估的部分，看能不能有一些空間，所以我們目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以次長現在回答的這兩項都是不可能！所以你語塞的說：看有沒有可能！本席告訴你是不可能！"],["連次長錦漳：沒有，當然還有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教你，沒關係，我們既然希望這樣子的撥補，部長也說過了，如果撥補兩年內台電的財務還沒有改善，變成他是管理不善，他應當要走人。我的解讀是，如果真給，換句話說，明年不會漲電價，是不是如此？"],["連次長錦漳：這個應該是由電價審議委員會來決定，我現在沒辦法去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，董事長也在這邊，每一次問到這個，大家都推給電價審議委員會，如果要撥補，我是因為以前的民生，我把民眾的民意告訴你，我們希望能夠以真正照顧民眾的權益為基準，我給你這個功課。"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們會在電價審議委員會裡面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要再請教，日本首相石破茂在22號表示，他在研擬產官總支出39兆日圓（也就是2,500億美元）的經濟刺激方案，以因應未來從通膨到薪資成長的挑戰，內容包括支持薪資持續成長、發放現金給低收入家庭，以及投資半導體跟人工智慧（AI）產業。南韓──我們鄰近的國家，他們也正在考慮明年初要制定追加預算，來因應整個消費者支出下滑跟經濟成長放緩。在這樣一個情況之下，請教次長，日本、南韓他們都這麼做了，也就是官方全部動起來，針對通膨、薪資挑戰、半導體以及AI產業的發展，我們準備要怎麼帶領臺灣繼續往前衝？"],["連次長錦漳：有關人工智慧AI，我們目前訂定是到2027年，製造業在導入半導體，差不多一半以上都要導入AI這一塊，然後我們要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以等於是4年後？"],["連次長錦漳：這個當然要逐步，而且這中間我們會先從數位轉型這一部分先導入。再來就是人才培訓，因為跟AI、半導體有關的是人才最重要，我們在2030之前會培訓20萬人，目前整個方向其實跟日本、南韓都差不多是雷同的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席似乎都聽到穿越時空的答案，所以我還是奉勸經濟部，人民過好日子是非常非常的重要，也是政府的責任，總好過政策大撒幣，所以我希望……"],["連次長錦漳：我們是有完整的規劃。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：鄰近國家已經這麼努力在做，全部官員總動員，我也希望藉由這樣的警惕，我們經濟部應該要有所方案。"],["連次長錦漳：有、有、有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把方案給本席。"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們會把我們的規劃策略給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果要等到2030年，要等到都是穿越時空的答案，這個人民等不及啊！"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你請回，把書面報告給本席。"],["連次長錦漳：我們是逐年在落實。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。主席，我再邀請財政部。"],["主席：請財政部部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。部長，川普勝選重返白宮，加上對加密貨幣友善的候選人幾乎都進入到美國國會，我們各界也預期加密貨幣會在有利的監管環境中，似乎這個方向是會蓬勃發展，依照您的看法是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關加密貨幣的部分，金管會以及央行都在做處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在做處理？換句話說，包括近期比特幣價格飆升，也是預估朝有利的監管環境當中加密貨幣會蓬勃發展，可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，有關虛擬資產這個部分，在臺灣並沒有把它認定為是貨幣，而是把它認為是資產。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是一個資產？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，我們目前針對加密貨幣交易所，只有營業稅跟營利事業所得稅，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分因為它是資產，所以它的交易也涉及到所得稅。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。對於個人或者是法人在交易中獲利的部分，我們要怎麼樣明確地課稅規範，有沒有朝這個方向在研擬？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分依法還是根據我們的所得稅法來做規範。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。但是部長，到目前為止，因為明年1月份美國白宮易主，方向是如此，整個世界的潮流到底會怎麼樣？我方也應該要因應以對啊！因為貨幣是世界通的，資產也是世界通的，就個人或者是法人交易當中獲利這個部分，我們有沒有朝這個方向會有明確的課稅規範？"],["莊部長翠雲：會有的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會有的？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你們現在在研擬，大概什麼時候會向社會大眾說明呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個請賦稅署署長來跟您回答好嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我時間點就好了。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，因為我們現在加密貨幣的課稅是按照現行所得稅法規定的原則，細節如果需要研訂，我們另外還有查核機制的部分，我們一起來處理，那是不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：關於你們的處理，請問你多久時間可以告訴社會大眾？因為大家都在觀望。"],["宋署長秀玲：是不是三個月？可以三個月嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：三個月的時間，就在明年1月份。"],["宋署長秀玲：是，會比較周延。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就明年1月份的時候向社會大眾說明這個部分，在個人以及法人交易當中，獲利的部分究竟要如何明確的課稅規範？是不是？"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，加油。"],["主席：謝謝。接著我們請伍麗華委員質詢，我們到邱志偉委員休息半個小時，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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市場你那個資料也讓我們去了解還是被人家綁在一起這些時候保證我們是"},{"start":312.461,"end":332.538,"text":"社會生意大家都知道這沒辦法得到的處理,讓這個生意那麼大你不能好好推出來。這不然他AI到處都AI,尤其他的監視系統,你是貼政府的這些情報,現在人車走到哪裡都要被照相下來,這是另外一種方式的改變。"},{"start":335.06,"end":337.722,"text":"我們基本上就是這樣先訓練人先把人才先佈局"},{"start":354.378,"end":355.679,"text":"我們要建構的是智慧城市"},{"start":371.304,"end":382.599,"text":"所以這要跟每一個管治政府提案,我們主要是管治政府提案每一項補助請問。你現在知道要做什麼嗎?這是問到屬於情報的監視系統還是怎樣?"},{"start":387.825,"end":389.607,"text":"委員我去你的辦公室喔,跟你上誰報告?"},{"start":404.758,"end":413.204,"text":"我聽你們說我是要聽你們教我上課,不然我會信任。我們的專家會去報告你。好,我了解一下。再來,我們現在AI大家很熱門,大家知道運算力就是國力,你又號稱四年培育20萬人才,"},{"start":427.57,"end":447.449,"text":"你憑我們AI的軟體擠進全世界第3名,我們都了解,我們IC晶片,我們的富士武器都很第一,但是你講說我們AI軟體產業世界排名26名,但是你的目標要怎樣?2028年,要讓台灣近日"},{"start":452.695,"end":473.369,"text":"臺灣的產業今日前三名我們要建立臺灣自己的子群AI要進入應用的時代這個應用很重要代表臺灣成為軟體設計先進的國家我已算是把你現現的都看不出來還是我這個"},{"start":476.552,"end":491.883,"text":"這個合文沒法管 看不懂 你們到底你要在AI軟體設計方面 憑AI轉型 你們的經費到底在哪裡 聯合情緒在哪裡 因為這個很重要 我了解 從這個時候建立AI軟體的時候"},{"start":493.386,"end":518.898,"text":"AI軟體不是那麼好建立的喔那要模擬要各方面的喔阿你現在要怎麼做你教我教一下我們先建立這個訓練的部分然後訓練完了以後讓他可以就業的部分然後我們對個人的話會建立平台讓他在上面發展阿你在2028年要進到第三名聽到很興奮你要跟人才培訓教到一樣"},{"start":519.378,"end":522.74,"text":"我們今年2萬5千人為嗨過禮拜,還有2萬5千人是為國外才生起來,所以今年5萬人,總共20萬是這樣生的。"},{"start":535.464,"end":554.556,"text":"是很豐滿,實際是很能幹,你今天要告我發,我們就請你去啦,我們的錢要值得取啦,人才才會進來啦,不然你想要跟他打,我告訴你,現在只是資訊要好談的,你去傳統產業,等一下要跟你問事,時間不夠啦,我這樣跟你點就知道啦,你如果要做AI軟體的時候,"},{"start":564.463,"end":587.072,"text":"我希望你這個一個資料給我好好來代讀一下好不好 稍等 再一次你常常說中內關外 中外關內我問你副國務常常你說鎖定日本捷克美國菲律賓在這 川普說"},{"start":588.703,"end":609.874,"text":"我們台灣搶美國人的權今天我最先看到了一個資料台積電的前董事長劉德英他說最先進的機師在美國生產可能會賠上百億美元最先進的產品在台灣製造才能酸癢"},{"start":611.271,"end":638.191,"text":"他要提醒我們記得這句話地緣政治是非常現實不要把矽谷台積電當成護士女的想法這句話也好聽他是以前要到美國支持到美國今天講這種話他講的第二句話大國對小國的大國對小國家的"},{"start":640.394,"end":656.135,"text":"大國對小國看待國家利益,是以國家利益為推動。你現在不放棄內關外,我第一跟你說,把台灣的這個企業顧得好,第二你的手下四大公司,"},{"start":658.136,"end":685.207,"text":"臺電虧損雷雷一兆,中油要加你增加補保增加資本額增加預算也是虧損雷雷,自來水公司是嗷嗷待苦,臺黨是賣土地求生,我感覺你把私營公司整頓好,你你企業的專才,就對臺灣的貢獻很大,不要想我姐,顧好自己,這個是多變的時代,有信心嗎?"},{"start":687.119,"end":689.125,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵,我會全力以赴。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1032,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（12時1分）主席好。首先，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長，你這個做大事業的人，但是我看你的預算的編列，好像不深入在地，沒有在地的一種感覺。我現在跟你們說，你們有一個計畫，叫做城鄉在地共好計畫，4年要花5億元，說要吸引國際頂級的消費群來臺，我請教4年編5億元，1年差不多要花1億2,000萬，臺灣有幾個鄉鎮？"],["郭部長智輝：380吧？"],["陳委員超明：差不多，是368，可見你有研究過。一個鄉鎮一年250萬，部長，要做的事情，你去問國發會，去問交通部觀光署，去問農業部，每一個地方都在推，推到現在不曉得花了多少錢，實在講起來，成果不是很好。你們在這邊寫說要發掘全國各鄉鎮獨特的產業和旅遊，要推廣美食、景點、醫美、健康檢查等，你們寫得不切實際，這樣少的預算要做這麼大的事情，還寫得很好聽，部長，你曉得觀光業現在有多慘？臺灣人跑出去，沒有人跑進來，以前是大陸客為基準，現在連日本客也很少啦。我說我們這個國家，我不知道要怎麼說，沒人替這些觀光業著想，讓他們繼續維持下去，所以在這裡，這個計畫我支持，但是我覺得不切實際，你要做出特色，不然你們這麼寫，找不出重點，這我給你建議的，真的要下鄉，真的要瞭解各鄉鎮的情形，不然你也去向每個立委問一問，他們從轄區得到的經驗都非常豐富，會指點你很多，看法會不一樣。這個問題裡面，你又編了116億推動中小微企業的多元振興方案，來促進地方的發展，這116億就很多，中小微企業的多元振興方案，我在你預算書裡面看不出來，你給我列得詳細一點，我們那裡的中小微企業非常多，你的計畫拿給我，細一點，我會去跟他們講，幫你們推銷，幫你們解決問題，這樣好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：有沒有？要不要給我？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會把這個內容……"],["陳委員超明：內容給我，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員超明：我才會具體說明。"],["郭部長智輝：是。簡單說有三種，第一個就是數位轉型，第二個是透過淨零轉型，第三個是透過通路布建。"],["陳委員超明：你要進行數位轉型，在鄉下聽不太懂什麼是數位，我來看一看，你跟我說清楚，我來說，我的行銷會比較好，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：再來，你們的產業發展署，你們說：經濟部與地方攜手產業，首推遵循國家標準的5G智慧杆實證，結合了一大堆的企業，說在2030年有154億美元，到二零幾年大概有450億美元，裡面的功能可多了，我念給部長聽，你們說可以做什麼一體式的5G智慧杆，智慧共杆能源管理系統、AI智慧監控系統、天線解決方案、5G企業專網、室外廣告機、戶外空氣品質偵測器，說是日後這個生意會很大，好像說到2030年有590億美元，你這個計畫，我們也不知道，你今年只編了3億，這個東西……就是電線杆，如果有這麼好的市場，你們那個資料也讓我們了解一下，還是被人家綁在一起？部長，做過生意的人大概都知道其中的「眉角」，如果這個生意會這麼好，你就要好好推出來，這不亞於AI，現在到處都AI，尤其是監視系統，你們是替政府在做情報嗎？現在人車走到哪裡都要被照相下來，這是另外一種方式的改變，我不知道這個東西是什麼，今年編3億，會有590億美元的生意，但你在臺灣只編了3億，那你到底要怎麼來做這樣大的產業？"],["郭部長智輝：我們基本上是先訓練人，把人才先布局。"],["陳委員超明：這個都做好了，還要訓練人才？這只是紙張上去啊……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有……"],["陳委員超明：你注意看，你們有幾個學校在喔！你已經完成了喔！你們說在高雄、在臺南都試驗完成了喔！"],["郭部長智輝：我們要建構的是智慧城市。"],["陳委員超明：我曉得啦！"],["郭部長智輝：所以這個還要跟每一個縣市政府的提案……我們這筆錢主要是用於縣市政府提案的補助，每一案……"],["陳委員超明：現在這3億要做什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：每一案補助1,000萬。"],["陳委員超明：這也是屬於情報的監視系統？還是怎樣？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦，就是讓他們來提案……"],["陳委員超明：你不說的話，我改天再好好請教你，我時間太短了，我知道這個「眉角」，這裡面含意很大，所以全臺灣人要注意，我們的電線桿是全部來監測……"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我們去你的辦公室跟你詳細報告。"],["陳委員超明：沒有，我聽你的，我不敢……我是要聽你們幫我上課……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦，我們的專家會去跟你報告，他這方面……"],["陳委員超明：好，我瞭解一下。再來，現在AI很熱門，大家知道運算力就是國力，你還號稱四年培育20萬的人才，力拚我們AI的軟體擠進全世界第三名，我們都了解，我們的IC晶片、我們的伺服器都占第一，你說我們AI軟體產業世界排名第二十六名，但是你的目標要怎樣？2028年要讓臺灣的產業進入前三名，我們要建立臺灣自己的主權AI，要進入應用的時代，這個應用很重要，代表臺灣成為軟體設計先進的國家。我把你的預算表翻一翻，都看不出來在哪裡，還是我學問沒那麼高所以看不出來？你要在AI軟體設計方面拼AI轉型，你們的經費到底在哪裡？因為這個很重要，我了解，這個時候要建立AI軟體，AI軟體不是那麼好建立的，要模擬、還要加上各方面。你現在要怎麼做，你教我一下。"],["郭部長智輝：我們先建立訓練的部分，其次是訓練完了以後讓他可以就業的部分，然後我們對個人的話會建立平台，讓他在上面發展。"],["陳委員超明：你2028年要進到第三名，聽了很興奮，你還要做人才培訓，做到可以……"],["郭部長智輝：我們一年有2萬5,000人從海外進來，還有2萬5,000人是從國內升起來，所以一年5萬人，總共20萬人的數字是這樣來的。"],["陳委員超明：部長，你的想像是很豐滿，實際是很冷感，一年要從國外……我們就要請得起，我們的錢要出得起，人才才會進來。"],["郭部長智輝：當然、當然。我們還有2加4的計畫。"],["陳委員超明：我告訴你，現在是只有資訊業比較好賺，你要去傳統產業的話，我待會要問的東西，因為時間不夠，我這樣點一下，你應該就知道了，如果要推新的AI軟體，我希望你也給我一個這方面的資料，讓我好好來拜讀一下，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["陳委員超明：還有一項，你常常說境內關外、境外關內，我常常被你搞昏，你說鎖定日本、捷克、美國、菲律賓，川普說我們臺灣搶美國人的錢，我最近看到了一個資料，台積電的前董事長劉德音說：最先進的技術在美國生產，可能會賠上百億美元；最先進的產品在臺灣製造，才能雙贏。他提醒我們記得這句話，地緣政治是非常現實，不要有把矽盾當成護身符的想法。這句話要好好聽。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：他以前是支持到美國的，今天講這種話，我們要去想想。他講的第二句話：大國對小國，是以大國的國家利益來推動。你現在不談境內關外，我第一個要跟你說的是，把臺灣的企業顧好；第二，你手下四大公司，台電虧損累累，1兆；中油要叫你撥補、增加預算，也是虧損累累；自來水公司是嗷嗷待哺；台糖是賣土地求生。我覺得你若能以你企業的專長把這四家公司整頓好，對臺灣的貢獻很大，不要想那麼多，顧好自己，這個是多變的時代，有信心嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的鼓勵，我會全力以赴。"],["陳委員超明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請李柏毅、李柏毅，李柏毅委員不在。","請麥玉珍、麥玉珍，麥玉珍委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":158.545,"end":159.846,"text":"財政部、莊部長、郭友財產署、曾署長"},{"start":187.096,"end":211.118,"text":"委員好部長那大概接下來因為財政收支劃分法在財政委員會的一個審議那目前已經送出委員會3分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒討論到那這些沒有討論到的是我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分的時候的一個核心的精神所在"},{"start":211.718,"end":236.186,"text":"那現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本基本上就是要為中央然後把它垂直分配然後就是要把中央垂直分配越多然後就要把它拿到了拿直接給地方包括有首都的3%包括包括這個他們垂直的分配但是舊水平分配的指標的部分"},{"start":237.581,"end":261.96,"text":"這個一直沒有被討論我覺得這個對於尤其像嘉義縣我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面我們不管是國保二這個農一農二國保一國保二的土地我相信部長應該很清楚這種土地農一農二因為農業的是不科稅的所以農一農二的產值沒有辦法被計算"},{"start":262.981,"end":285.014,"text":"他這一個土地對於地方政府的貢獻甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算國保一、國保二他負責水源的安全所以他有土地使用的一個限制但是水源的安全提供給提供給像我們嘉義那些黑色水口的水源在我們那裡專門水口水源也在我們大埔"},{"start":288.077,"end":294.849,"text":"所以我們提供水源地但是這個土地的價值仍然沒有辦法被算入這個貢獻值裡面我認為這種不公平"},{"start":299.318,"end":319.435,"text":"所以部長未來是不是有可能把這些指標,然後你們應該要有具體的說這個應該,所以你要站在我們家嘛,包括賴若龍委員也有提出用污染產業,這個產業造成空污造成一些水污的一些指標都應該要納入計算,部長你贊成這樣的?"},{"start":320.955,"end":336.244,"text":"委員您說得很適材化法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配那水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上一個基準財政收支的一個差短之外對基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去所以"},{"start":336.684,"end":363.912,"text":"我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有80幾項然後我們開會以後就把它縮減然後能夠有共識提到共識那像委員剛剛提到土地面積土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字因為土地面積裡面因為有不同的結構農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地它是完全不一樣的土地面積如果您是農地的話田富不徵收這個對於地方政府來說它就少了一個財政的一個收入另外"},{"start":364.332,"end":364.972,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易"},{"start":383.897,"end":384.297,"text":"這就是最大的核心所在"},{"start":401.264,"end":420.712,"text":"所以部長會事實上會被強調就是說事實上這個土地的怎麼利用應該它要有它的一個價值這個地方才有起碼的一個公平正義所以事實上我會請這個國土財產署上來我一樣要講一個概念就是說你現在看到了不管是在發展綠電"},{"start":421.912,"end":422.452,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘"},{"start":446.846,"end":470.997,"text":"你們這樣收租金就是中央收事實上我覺得要做收租金要做部分的比例然後要給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所第一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於說他們這個土地是來做於綠能所以這個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情他們有部分的一個回饋做地方政府來說"},{"start":472.217,"end":496.508,"text":"而不是說大家中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往這邊找事實上往這邊找這要面對很多的社會成本這個社會成本來自於說這個太陽能產業的競爭以及一些相對應的需要協調或是地方的一些民怨的時候我覺得還是要讓地方政府有著度的他們因為太陽能產業他們有可以在"},{"start":498.628,"end":504.729,"text":"國有財產署收的租金的比例分配﹖可以讓他們可以部分分配﹖這部分是不是部長可以來﹖我想我們這個部分跟經濟部一起再來做討論﹖那我現在要再講一件事就好﹖"},{"start":524.033,"end":544.09,"text":"就是說事實上這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法他們事實上還是都站在六都的一個想法都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量我只講一個他們的版本中他們的鄉鎮公所的這個分配是由8%變4%過去是8%嘛"},{"start":548.305,"end":548.465,"text":"對於月基層（"},{"start":564.161,"end":580.238,"text":"臺灣現在還是三級政府所以我們還是需要鄉鎮公所陰地基站除了六都沒有六都改成區了但是在我們非六都我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、鋪子市還是有這些阿里山鄉他們地方的三級政府"},{"start":580.618,"end":580.978,"text":"蔡易餘發言委員"},{"start":602.179,"end":614.445,"text":"日本的東京在這個所得分配,差不多在二次世界大戰以來,當時沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配。部長這件事對不對?"},{"start":618.903,"end":639.09,"text":"統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑營需,然後均衡區域的發展,因為每個地方它的工商條件不同,地理形式也不同,所以要達到區域均衡的一個發展,所以讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的一個建設。當然啦,所以部長講的這個是非常的關鍵嘛。"},{"start":641.311,"end":641.531,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":661.861,"end":661.881,"text":"楊卿"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":748,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時56分）請經濟部連次長、國營事業管理司副司長。"],["主席：請經濟部連次長及國營事業劉副司長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，有關嘉義馬稠後二期產業園區開發，目前台糖大概有100公頃的土地在招商，這個招商的問題次長應該也知道，台糖他們除了租金以外，還要收20年訂金，這個很容易讓產業卻步。我實在是在納悶，像這樣的一個產業園區，它跟一般土地的出租不一樣，因為產業園區是要廠商去興建，所以會有建廠的成本，那你一開始就要給他收20年的租金，對他們來說前期的投資就會過多，所以這件事呈現起來就會變成台糖在招商的時候一個很不利的項目，經濟部現在也在嘉義這裡協助台糖招商，也因為這件事情，然後有廠商就有不同的意見。經濟部有沒有可能跟台糖溝通，對這件事是否可以有一些調整的方法呢？"],["連次長錦漳：我來跟台糖溝通一下好不好？因為現在園區這邊也是租嘛，但是那個方式是……"],["蔡委員易餘：只租不售嘛？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為其他的招商……"],["連次長錦漳：台糖應該是收權利金啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：權利金是設算20年嘛，20年租金的一個設算，但是這樣看起來，其實成本都是發生在最開始之初。"],["連次長錦漳：我來跟台糖說。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這件事可能要趕快跟他們溝通，不然現在招商的熱期會因為這個事情受影響，因為現在是要來做半導體的供應，整個半導體的供應鏈，現在是很關鍵的時候，現在看起來台糖這個20年權利金會變成一個不利的因素。"],["連次長錦漳：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上，我們還是有很多政策方法，可以確保這一些廠商在進駐的時候如何要求他們一定要確實履約，我想這個方法很多。"],["連次長錦漳：是有一個機制，但是我們來跟台糖溝通一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝，次長請回。","繼續請財政部部長及國有財產署曾署長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長、國有財產署曾署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，財政收支劃分法在財政委員會審議之後，目前已經送出委員會，3分鐘的審議基本上有很多事情都沒有討論到，這些沒有討論到的事，我認為才是真正在討論財政收支劃分時的核心精神所在。現在不管是國民黨或者是藍白的版本，基本上就是要從中央然後把它垂直分配，中央垂直分配越多，然後就要把它直接給地方，包括首都的3%，包括他們垂直的分配。但是就水平分配的指標部分，這個一直沒有被討論，我覺得這個尤其對嘉義縣來講，我們嘉義縣在國土計劃法裡面，不管是農1、農2、國保1、國保2的土地，我相信部長應該很清楚，這種的土地像農1、農2，因為農業的是不課稅的，所以農1、農2的產值沒有辦法被計算土地對於地方政府的貢獻，甚至對於國家的貢獻沒有辦法被計算。國保1、國保2負責水源的安全，所以有土地使用的限制，但是水源安全的提供，像雲林湖山水庫的水源在我們這裡；曾文水庫水源也在我們大埔，所以我們提供水源地，但是土地的價值仍然沒有辦法被算入貢獻值裡面，我認為這是不公平。所以部長未來是不是有可能針對這些指標，你們應該要具體的針對這個部分，就是你們應該要站在我們這邊，包括賴瑞隆委員也有提出汙染產業，產業造成空汙、造成水汙的一些指標，都應該要納入計算。部長，你贊成這樣的作法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員說的很是，財劃法裡面很重要的一個核心就是水平分配，水平分配的目標第一個就是要補足地方上基準財政收支的差短之外，對基本建設還有財政努力都要放進去。所以我們請各地方政府提出的指標大概有八十幾項，我們開會以後就把它縮減，然後能夠有共識就形成共識。像委員剛剛提到土地面積，土地面積不能只看土地面積的數字，因為土地面積裡面有不同的結構，農地跟建築用地跟都市發展的土地是完全不一樣的，土地面積如果是農地的話，田賦不徵收，這個對於地方政府來說就少了一個財政的收入，另外它的產值也不一樣，所以這個部分在做指標的時候都應該要做詳細的分析，然後給予不同的權數以及一個調整係數，要非常的細緻。","另外還有人口的部分，人口多，但是人口的結構也要去考慮，譬如65歲以上或14歲以下的，所需要政府給予財政支出的部分就要比較多，所以人口的部分不能只看數字，也要看結構。所以這個就是在水平分配的時候，相關的指標、權重以及調整係數都要去考慮，這就是最大的一個核心所在。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，事實上我要強調的是，土地怎麼利用應該要有其價值，對這個地方才有起碼的公平、正義。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，它的產值也要計算。"],["蔡委員易餘：之所以我會請國有財產署上來，我一樣要講一個概念，就是現在所看到的不管是發展綠電或是太陽能，大概都集中在沿海地區，尤其在雲嘉南日照充足的沿海地區，所以有所謂漁電共生在推動，現在漁電共生的推動有很多也都跟國有財產署承租土地，國有財產署收租金。但是我要強調一個概念，我覺得部長跟署長回去可以思考一下，收租金都是中央收，事實上我覺得要就租金的部分比例給縣政府或者是鄉鎮公所，一方面讓縣政府跟鄉鎮公所對於他們這個土地是來做於綠能，以致那個土地未來是沒有辦法被使用的這一件事情，他們獲得一部分的回饋，就地方政府來說。而不是中央政府需要太陽能的時候一直往地方這邊找，事實上往這邊找要面對很多的社會成本，這個社會成本來自於太陽能產業的競爭及一些相對應的需要協調，或是地方上有一些民怨的時候，我覺得還是要審酌地方政府……因為太陽能產業而在國有財產署收的租金分配上，可以讓他們獲得部分分配，這部分是不是可以麻煩部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分我們可以跟經濟部一起討論，也就是再生能源在國產署所收的相關租金，要以什麼樣的機制回饋給地方政府，我們再跟經濟部一起來討論。"],["蔡委員易餘：我再講一件事就好。事實上，這一次國民黨版本的財政劃分法，他們還是都站在六都的想法，都沒有把所謂非六都的縣市去做充分的考量。比如我講一個，在他們的版本中，他們對鄉鎮公所的分配從8%變成4%，現在是8%嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以鄉鎮公所未來分配會變4%喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你看從8%變成4%這件事情，對於越基層，臺灣現在還是三級政府嘛，所以我們還是需要基層的鄉鎮公所，除了六都改成區了，但是以我們非六都，我們還是有布袋鎮、水上鄉、朴子市、阿里山鄉，地方的三級政府也是需要有統籌分配才能做好公所的工作。結果這個版本把鄉鎮市直接對砍，砍成4%，然後對臺北市政府再無條件給予首都的3%，這個看起來就是重都市不重鄉村。日本的東京在所得分配方面，差不多從二次世界大戰以來，東京市沒有拿到任何一塊錢的所得分配，部長，這件事對不對？統籌分配啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我了解，統籌分配最重要的目的就是要調劑財政盈虛，然後均衡區域的發展，因為每個地方的工商條件不同，地理形式也不同，所以要達到一個區域均衡的發展，讓每個地區的民眾能夠享受到基本的……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦，所以部長所講是非常的關鍵，要均衡，然後要平衡，包括城鄉的差距要把它縮小，不過我們卻看到現在城鄉分配比例從過去的8%對砍變成4%，看起來就是有錢的越有錢，而像公所財政比較不行的就一定越來越慘。我覺得這些未來大家都可以來好好討論，那我現在已經抓出問題，我覺得部長應該對這些問題開始去思考，到樣怎樣才是一個合理的財政收支，一個符合縮小城鄉差距的分配方法，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。繼續請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。","本席作以下宣告：我們質詢到12點半，休息半個小時用餐，下午1點繼續開會。","請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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Peter）提出「彼得原理」：「在組織當中，每位員工都將升遷到他無法勝任的職位為止。」而「彼得原理」的隱含意義是：升遷太快未必是好事。主管職人員是否具備良好之管理職能，攸關是否產生逾越管理權之霸凌行為。機關首長及各級主管職人員是否規劃領導職能評核制度？","(五)這次勞發署霸凌事件發生在公部門，依照現行規定，公務員沒有組工會權利，也不適用規範私部門的職業安全法相關法令，現在各機關又沒有處理霸凌事件的專屬流程，在法令保障上是化外之民，而公務員無法透過工會申訴及保障，在公務機關官僚體制官官相護，權力不對等狀況更為嚴重下，請考試院偕同相關部會研議，如何補強公務員籌組工會？還是要像某些團體呼籲應將公務部門受僱者納入職安法適用對象？","二、公務人員年齡持續老化問題","(一)面臨高齡化及少子化趨勢，近10年全國公務人力平均年齡概呈上升趨勢，其中尤以55歲以上人力增加速度最快。近10年（103至112年底）全國公務人員總人數由103年底34.78萬人概增至112年底36.55萬人（增幅5.09%）；同期間公務人員平均年齡由103年底43.37歲緩增至112年底43.80歲，增加0.43歲，其中18至29歲之人力占比由9.75%增至12.05%，增加2.3個百分點；30至54歲者由75.51%減至68.83%，減少6.68個百分點；55歲以上者則自14.72%增至19.12%，增加4.4個百分點。要如何強化公務員人立新陳代謝？","(二)在年改後退休金大幅縮水，讓更多公務員選擇屆齡才退休。根據考試院「國家資源論壇」研究報告，年改後公務員退休率下降，六都以外縣市降幅明顯，且職等愈低階愈不敢退。年改後，中央政府年改後退休率下降1.15%，六都政府下降1.33%，縣市政府下降1.50%，而這群延後退休者，多數為俸點較低者。恐排擠年輕世代進入公部門的空間，以及進入公部門中之考績及升遷機會，因而引發工作效率低落等問題，此問題如何怎麼解決？","(三)今年6月時，司法法制委員會審查了「警察人員人事條例」，警消因公殉職占全體公職人員36.6%，但警消人數占全體公職人員人數不到1成，我們希望看在警消風險、壓力都很高的情況下，修正他們的所得替代率，讓他們有比較優惠的退休待遇，也是合理。現在警消平均退休年齡已升高到55.64歲，任職時間從過去的29.8年到現在的34.33年，是否有掌握到這樣的現象？原因是什麼？","(四)年金改革之後，年金縮水，無論一般公務員或警消，提早退休領的錢減少，只好繼續做下去。但這就要面臨到警力老化的問題，各項勤務落實上都會出現問題。另外，警力的缺額問題越來越嚴重，2023年就有4,488個缺額，為什麼大家不想當警察？是因為錢少、事多、危險、退休沒保障？如何改善？在考量國家財務平衡的同時，也要考慮警消海巡等人員照顧問題，應該要在這兩者間找平衡點。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘，再來處理議程所列預算的解凍案。","休息（12時8分）","繼續開會（12時20分）"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：我們繼續開會。","現在進行議程所列預算解凍案，處理前，先請議事人員一併宣讀報告事項及討論事項之預算解凍案，宣讀後，再依程序依序進行處理，宣讀過程中，與解凍案無關之列席機關代表，可先行離席。請宣讀。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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12:00:51","影片長度":"00:13:25","會議時間":"2024-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管「考選業務基金」收支部分。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公務人員退休撫卹基金」收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金基金」收支部分。\n五、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於考試院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答；預算提案於12月3日中午12時截止收件】\n【11月25日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-27","start_time":"2024-11-27T11:47:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-27T12:00:51+08:00","duration":805,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.74721875,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.34909375,"end":46.774718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.90971875,"end":58.182218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.62096875,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.68159375,"end":128.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.95596875,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.72784375,"end":133.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.81596875,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.04346875000002,"end":173.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.27721875,"end":153.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.72534375,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.26909375000002,"end":180.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.32346875000002,"end":187.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.35596875000002,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.41721875000002,"end":213.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.65159375000002,"end":215.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.60909375,"end":218.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.11909375000002,"end":219.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.04721875,"end":223.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.19846875000002,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.64096875,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.13846875000002,"end":230.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.79659375000003,"end":235.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.44971875000002,"end":239.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.68971875000003,"end":244.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.63409375,"end":246.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.77284375000002,"end":250.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.74284375000002,"end":251.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.54846875,"end":257.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.79659375,"end":258.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.26471875000004,"end":263.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.95596875,"end":275.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.03846875,"end":276.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.83159375,"end":290.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.08284375,"end":293.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.29346875000005,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.82409375000003,"end":325.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.58346875,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.55534375,"end":349.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.46159375,"end":353.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.89971875000003,"end":356.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.20721875000004,"end":359.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.36721875,"end":360.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.63284375,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.52721875000003,"end":362.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.80971875,"end":362.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.01971875000004,"end":369.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.45846875,"end":407.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.26346875,"end":376.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.98034375000003,"end":379.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.76471875000004,"end":413.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.64971875000003,"end":439.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.07159375000003,"end":415.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.62034375,"end":460.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.61346875000004,"end":458.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.98846875000004,"end":475.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.83846875,"end":493.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.18159375000005,"end":522.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.1728437500001,"end":530.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.85096875,"end":535.8290937500001},{"speak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art":343.547,"end":344.948,"text":"議長,這不像你了,這個什麼大家可以來討論,這個很明顯就不合時宜啊。"},{"start":369.428,"end":370.449,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":389.502,"end":413.488,"text":"但是您剛剛舉這個很好的例子我們很多運動選手身上不管是面積大面積小其實有很多都是有刺青但如果他能夠考得上他適不適合當我想大概沒有人會挑戰所以我覺得這件事在社會這樣的互相辯證當中可能以後可以理出一個結論或者一個比較合理的做法我每次看到你看我特別昨天我在質詢我特別去看一個埃及的影片人家那個文淳"},{"start":414.713,"end":417.256,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":440.786,"end":448.278,"text":"根委員報告,剛剛說的那一個委員局的例子很好,它在我們現在就屬於原住民寄傳統遺書,那是可以的。"},{"start":448.666,"end":474.294,"text":"當然剛剛還有一些文化藝術,所以我還是比較希望我們在這再做充分的討論,也許有一些正面表列可以表達再更多。另外,我針對於國家考試的一個公平性跟多元性的問題,我想請教部長就是說,假設我是考官,我要出一個題目來讓你闡述一下生命中的好奇心,我不曉得你會怎麼樣來回應我?"},{"start":475.994,"end":476.935,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":494.298,"end":522.031,"text":"第一個想法如果是考生我想說AI可能在我公務上會有多大的一個方便如何來促進整個我整個處理整個這個面對這些公務的時候讓他更簡便或者說讓他有更精進的地方結果到最後討出來的題目是生命中的好奇心我就覺得這個很怪那個題目如果是說AI人工智慧是可以取代人力嗎或者說AI人工智慧對於公務體系有什麼弊端跟益處嗎"},{"start":523.351,"end":550.072,"text":"這可能就沒有那麼八股啊順應時事是好事啊但是我看啊這個我們整個在考題喔最主要是你要去測試出這個人適不適合來當公務人員啊我看那個題目喔那怕死人我看完之後我才知道說你去看喔比如國文考題啊本時在帶民務長跟部長來看今年啊高考課題的一個國文考題中其中的一題啊他說喔有方位一詞在使用上啊"},{"start":551.178,"end":559.462,"text":"有時賦予文化上的意涵,下列選項何者在方位之外具有其他的意涵?A."},{"start":559.462,"end":563.684,"text":"駙馬依北風,月鳥潮南枝。B."},{"start":563.684,"end":568.366,"text":"孤符號外爺,翔鳥鳴北鄰。3."},{"start":568.366,"end":571.107,"text":"士主難免事業公餐。阿你又答案你對一下。阿不然A是什麼意思?A為什麼不行?"},{"start":578.114,"end":580.015,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":602.971,"end":618.486,"text":"我認為啦我認為啦我看到這個題目以後然後你看辦公室同仁要自證退休禮物給長官不適合使用哪一個題詞?絕功其為、薰月永垂、形宜可思你們答案是C這個不行這人死掉了嘛齁永懷得風欸我在參加公祭的時候我也常常看到永懷得風啊那D也不行啊"},{"start":628.049,"end":651.1,"text":"啊所以你們答案為什麼是C?叫我去考試我連D我都把它選下去了。昨天明天我們常常看到這個啊。欸那個褻瘩啊。我們去公祭的時候啊。常常會看到這個咧。啊如果剛好他那位考生他昨天晚上剛好去參加他的親人。欸昨天晚上有那個那個不適合就把他選D。你說他不對。啊這也好奇怪啊。"},{"start":652.705,"end":670.657,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":670.757,"end":688.775,"text":"因為這些大概都是臨命出來我們叫臨時命題國文在過去都是這樣那我們現在希望拔走題庫可以早一點的來進行檢視讓它比較傾向於是比較測驗能力的方面考試委要怎麼出題立法院不會有意見啦我們一定都是尊重我的意思就是說"},{"start":689.696,"end":689.816,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":711.229,"end":714.83,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":736.559,"end":762.833,"text":"接下來,我不知道您的方向到底是怎樣,還是您都只是親自說說而已?沒有,已經在進行了,那我們會傾向於說,因為所謂的取代變成科目取代,但是另外一個走向是,即使在現有的國文、英文這樣的科目裡面,其實就可以把這邊開始以比例的題目開始把它融入,我們現在要開始做這件事情。但是它是基本能力,我們比較強調說,現象車一般會以為是某種的"},{"start":763.953,"end":781.828,"text":"其實它真正的解釋是屬於一種基本素養跟能力的測驗比如說批判思考比如說溝通這樣的一個東西那我們開始把它融入既有的題目我的意思 我總結我的意思是說國家在取材 這個國家考試我們確實考選職務上必須要與時俱進也不要開考生的玩笑考試委員權力很大 點試委員權力很大但是有時候你這樣突發奇想"},{"start":792.216,"end":793.198,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1310,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時47分）謝謝鍾佳濱召委，有請考試院秘書長及考選部部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，午安。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我想就幾個問題來請教，考選部為了因應憲法法庭113年憲判字第6號判決，針對公務人員特種考試一般警察人員考試規則第八條第一款的規定，也就是體檢體格設定身高的問題，其實設定一個身高之後，無論是男或女都會受到影響，而且以身高當作考試的標準，確實會造成很多應考的人，尤其是女性，在憲法上保障的考試服公職基本權利遭受不利益的差別待遇。如果將男性身高的標準訂為165，僅會排除10%的男性；如果將女性身高標準訂為160，則會排除55%的女性，其實，兩者的差異已經非常顯著了。","今年考試院已經針對這個部分做了因應、做了回應，在8月27日會同學者專家及用人機關進行研議。我倒是有一個想法，這次全面檢視體格檢查項目，你們建議刪除二項警察人員考試規則中的身高標準，但是內政部在10月8日也建議提出相關的意見，衡酌紋身或刺青涉及到個人言論自由的表現、身體權及應考權，所以建議一起刪除。不過，後來考選部好像對於這個部分的意見又有一點點保守，不知道部長的看法是如何？"],["劉部長孟奇：報告委員，誠如委員所言，因為身高限制是屬於一年內定期失效，所以我們必須要在12月底之前就把它先處理掉。目前用人機關就是刪除、它的建議就是刪除，這項……"],["莊委員瑞雄：會刪除嗎？"],["劉部長孟奇：會刪除。"],["莊委員瑞雄：會刪除喔！"],["劉部長孟奇：對，因為這是重大的考試規則，目前我們要把它作為看守期來處理會有困難，雖然目前已經有一個結論送進考試院，但是必須等到考試院儘快組成正式的院會才能處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是覺得內政部這個建議很好！部長，我提出意見讓你做為參考，請你也思考看看！像這次我們的國家隊出去比賽，很多人看到林昱珉的刺青紋身就認為是8＋9，我實在是覺得莫名其妙！這個都是老一輩的人對於現在整個社會進程的誤解，臺灣有那麼多的民族，各個民族有它的文化、有它的藝術意涵，為什麼刺青之後就不能當警察？我看到好多媒體記者的包手，於是就問那樣要多少錢？他說要2個月的薪水。他認為整個手刺青之後，對自己而言是一個勳章，所以用了2個月的薪水去完成，而且媒體朋友怎麼會是8＋9？在我們屏東有9個原民鄉；在臺東有三分之一都是原住民，你可以去看看，泰雅族也好、賽德克族也好、阿美族也好，像林昱珉本身就是阿美族啊！人家刺青覺得是一種藝術、是要讓大家欣賞，但反觀我們長期以來的考試標準，有刺青的就不能當警察，這樣好怪！如果我刺一個警察世家、我愛警察，為什麼這樣不行？"],["劉部長孟奇：可以喔！目前的考試規則是可以的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！"],["劉部長孟奇：報告委員，其實我們並沒有說刺青就不能，現在的問題是要經過醫師檢查，必須確定它沒有不雅意涵或是幫派意涵。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如何說是不雅？「雅」是什麼？你們要找誰來判斷雅或不雅？"],["劉部長孟奇：目前的實務是要經過醫師的判斷，老實說，對內政部而言，實務上由醫師判斷，現在的確是有遇到麻煩的地方，所以他們建議刪除。但是我覺得這件事情還是要回到……因為這是屬於社會爭議比較大的事項，目前我們是把它與身高的部分拆開處理，對於刺青這個爭議比較大的事項，還是要等到我們院會有充分的討論之後，再來進行處理，以上。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我認為將這樣的負面規定放在你們那個規定的第十項，這樣將它明示出來，對於刺青及紋身就賦予了一個很大的負面標籤化意涵。"],["劉秘書長建忻：報告委員，這個議題一定可以討論，一方面也是用人機關的反映，這樣的規定到底合不合時宜，或是認定上到底會不會出現爭議，所以我們就預告，預告這個規定之後，社會有一些……"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，這個就不像你、這個就不像你了！什麼大家可以來討論，這個很明顯的就是不合時宜啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，剛剛部長只是要講，因為身高這件事是憲判字指示一年之內要處理掉，也就是我們必須趕快處理身高這件事。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然、那當然！我想大家對於身高的部分會有共識。"],["劉秘書長建忻：至於刺青這件事，我認為要讓社會有一點時間討論，就像委員剛剛講的，之前議題一開始出來時，有人會說刺龍刺鳳也可以當警察嗎？但是剛剛你舉了很好的例子，我們很多運動選手身上無論面積大或面積小都會有刺青，如果他們能夠考得上跟是否適合當警察，我想沒有人會挑戰，因此，這件事在社會的互相辯證當中，可能以後可以理出一個結論或是一個比較合理的作法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：為了質詢，我特別看了埃及的影片，人家紋唇、紋眉毛多有藝術，甚至為了個人信仰、個人價值，連聖經都可以刺上去，這是代表整個多元化、代表個人的價值、甚至是文化、藝術的意涵，不要說什麼不合時宜，除非是很離譜的，不然，這個真的是要與時俱進，這個規定放在這個地方才是不合時宜。"],["劉部長孟奇：報告委員，剛剛委員舉的那個例子很好，它現在就是屬於原住民技藝傳統藝術，那是可以的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然。"],["劉部長孟奇：剛剛還提到一些文化藝術等等，因此，我們還是比較希望能再做充分的討論，也許正面表列的部分可以再更多。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外，針對國家考試的公平性與多元性，我想請教部長，假設我是考官，出了一個題目「請闡述生命中的好奇心。」，不知道你會如何回應我？今年高等考試三級考試作文題目將AI浪潮作為指引來要求作文，很可惜，我就看到一個題目，相信很多考生看到一半也都以為是與AI有關的題目，如果我是考生就會想AI可能在公務上會有多大的方便、如何促進整個面對公務時能更簡便、或是讓它有更精進的地方，結果最後導出來的題目是生命中的好奇心，我就覺得很怪！如果題目是AI人工智慧可以取代人力嗎？或是AI人工智慧對公務體系有什麼弊端與益處嗎？這樣可能就沒有那麼八股，畢竟順應時勢是好事，不過整個考題最主要是測試這個人適不適合當公務人員，但是我看到題目真是嚇死人。你去看喔！譬如國文考題，本席就帶部長及秘書長來看今年高考國文考題其中的一題。方位一詞在使用上，有時被賦予文化上的意涵。下列選項，何者在方位之外具有其他意涵？（A）胡馬依北風，越鳥巢南枝（B）孤鴻號外野，翔鳥鳴北林（C）世祖南面嗣業，功參寶命（D）舍南舍北皆春水，但見羣鷗日日來。你猜答案是哪一個？A是什麼意思？A為什麼不可以？A為什麼不可以？胡馬依北風，胡馬是北方來的，除了方位之外，我想念的故鄉，或是女生想男生、想她的阿娜答為什麼去出征，這樣也對啊！也有其他的意涵啊！"],["劉部長孟奇：報告委員，我非屬典試委員，依法其實我不宜對答案提出意見。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果要對這題作答，我認為ABCD都對、我認為啦！我認為啦！再來，辦公室同仁要致贈退休禮物給長官，不適合使用下列哪個題辭？（A）厥功奇偉（B）勳業永垂（C）行誼可師，你們的答案是（C），因為這個人死掉了，但是我參加公祭時也常常看到（D）永懷德風，所以（D）也不行啊！為什麼你們的答案是（C）？如果是我去考試，我連（D）都會選下去，我們去公祭的時候常常會看到這個耶！如果考生剛好昨天晚上參加親人告別式時看到這個題辭，今天考試就會選（D），你說他不對嗎？這樣也好奇怪！"],["劉部長孟奇：報告委員，我不對個別答案提出意見，但是，的確，現在我們在國文有2個精進方向，第一個，其實它應該是比較傾向於測驗基本的素養及能力才對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！"],["劉部長孟奇：第二個，因為這些大概都是臨命出來的，我們稱為臨時命題，國文在過去都是這樣的做法，現在我們希望能走題庫的方式，可以早一點進行檢視，讓它比較傾向於測驗能力的方面。"],["莊委員瑞雄：考試委員要怎麼出題，立法院不會有意見，我們一定都是尊重，但我的意思是站在考生的立場，不要讓他們準備得要死，到了現場之後怎麼會與自己人生的體驗完全不一樣！看起來4個答案都可以，你卻告訴我其中只有1個不可以，明明昨天晚上我去參加親友告別式時靈堂就掛了那個，所以我就認為那個不適合送給長官，沒想到參加考試時卻說那個答案不對，這樣也好奇怪！","最後30秒，請教部長，你們的許前部長曾提出要研議用評估性向測驗取代公務人員考試的共同科目，也是向日本的考試方針靠攏，以前你們都一直這樣講，各類性向測驗取代共同考試研議的進度，接下來，我不知道你們的方向到底是如何？或者你們只是隨便講講而已？"],["劉部長孟奇：沒有，已經在進行了。因為所謂的取代變成科目取代，但是另外一個走向，即使在現有的國文、英文這樣的科目，其實就可以把這邊比例的題目開始融入，我們現在要開始做這件事情。但它是基本能力，我們比較強調性向測驗一般會以為是某種的什麼，其實它真正的解釋是屬於一種基本素養及能力的測驗，譬如批判思考、譬如溝通，我們開始把它融入既有的題目……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我總結我的意思，國家考試取才，在考選實務上必須要與時俱進，也不要開考生的玩笑，考試委員權力很大、典試委員權力很大，但是有時候你們的突發奇想會累死我們的考生啊！你應該是挑選哪些適合的人有資格擔任公務人員，這個才是重點嘛！不是這樣講嗎？好不好？謝謝。"],["劉部長孟奇：是。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄代）：接下來質詢有請我們最專業的王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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委員好 這個怎麼陳啟玉啊這些王八蛋 混蛋透頂這個我相信新任的行政院包含郭部長在內應該也想掃蕩這些所謂的綠能蟑螂就是說運用綠能政策的機會去賺錢但是我今天想要跟部長討論的是這些錢都賺誰的錢"},{"start":35.68,"end":53.201,"text":"其實都是賺政府的錢對不對因為你不管是成立什麼樣的子公司開什麼樣的案子最後賣出去的對象不是台電就是所謂的國營企業等等對不對部長你的這些人他們在外面怎麼搞錢最後發出來的電他們賺錢都從哪裡來是不是都是賣給台電"},{"start":55.382,"end":57.103,"text":"是不是從台電的系統去做制度?"},{"start":57.103,"end":82.973,"text":"不過是這樣子就我們不一定會跟他買特別貴的電阿所以那個電的錢他應該不是賺國家的錢阿他應該是賺那個廠商的錢而不是賺台電的錢到了最後啦為什麼這一段時間綠電會蓬勃發展台電的財務壓力會大幅的上升其實我們在之前總諮詢都討論過了對不對就是說你的成本還是相對高的綠電的錢我想這個就是不是說只有針對這一家會買比較好而是"},{"start":83.553,"end":97.077,"text":"所以我在想在裡面剛才委員吹詢的這一部分對不起容我再表達一下但是最後都是台電要買單嘛因為你到時候都收在台電裡面對不對他就會形成台電的成本嘛對不對不會喔"},{"start":105.081,"end":130.594,"text":"他也可以賣給外面的廠商阿他也可以賣給外面的廠商這就是我今天要跟你討論的事情嘛馬上我們要審查經濟部的預算今天財政跟經濟也聯席在審查最佳預算其實就是因為台電的財務狀況不太好所以要動用國家納稅人的錢來做補貼對不對那你今天我們如果沒有把這些事情講清楚沒有導引一些政策的改變你要我們放行這個預算是不可能的事情這個台電的錢坑其實很困難難解上一次我們在總諮詢的時候我們要求你提財務模型提報告"},{"start":131.594,"end":151.4,"text":"後來你也沒有提只有給我兩張書面回覆這是不夠的我們在年底的時候會提出來年底的時候會寫好這個部分我希望你仔細比照企業的規格來寫我們讓財務的部分更透明這第一個我會用三張表來表達就是損益表然後吃產負債表跟現金流量表我也希望還有預估的模型"},{"start":151.88,"end":151.9,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":169.935,"end":194.137,"text":"所以我們大概發200多億度的綠電啦 但真正在市場流通大概只有15億度啦其他通通都進台電大水庫嘛 對不對好 現在的問題就是這樣 我們高價短購綠電 但是你進了台電的大水庫之後你的電價是統一的 那我們又不能隨便漲電價 對不對所以實務上來講就是綠電高額的發電 但其實我們沒有辦法回收嘛這個其實就是造成台電財務壓力的一個核心的原因我之前注意到部長曾經有提個概念叫做綠電分倉啊"},{"start":195.859,"end":217.388,"text":"也就是說用不同的價格來做計算我覺得這樣的制度其實沒有什麼不好嘛對不對因為這個制度好的地方第一個它可以跟國際接軌國際上大部分有在做推動綠能的國家也做了綠電分倉嘛高價發的綠電就用相對高的價格買反正企業有需求第二個簡單明瞭嘛你在行政作業的程序上改一改電費單就好了嘛對不對第三個符合你的政策承諾啊"},{"start":217.748,"end":246.445,"text":"上次我們在議事堂總諮詢的時候你講這個因應企業需要綠能比較多嘛因為全世界的這個淨零碳排所以他們當然應該要負擔相對的成本那就用分倉的方式來處理我覺得目前沒有什麼不對的你自己曾經在6月的時候其實有提嘛就是說你真的要研理這件事情7月的時候接受專訪你又再講一次這件事情那請問到了現在他的進度是什麼我們現在進度還是持續在進行中進行中我們現在這個要先把公司設立起來"},{"start":247.509,"end":253.362,"text":"所以我們現在在進行中你做綠電分商甚至連公司都不用設立你修改台電的收電費的方式不就好了嗎"},{"start":254.793,"end":276.849,"text":"你現在還去搞一些公司或什麼講中鋼力量那個就是老調重台嘛台電也有在準備台電也有在準備我要問的就是說你這樣子的一個政策進度因為這個政策我認為是有助於改善台電的財務結構嘛那這個政策具體的進度到底是什麼我很擔心你6、7月講然後大家覺得好像有一點改變的樣子然後過了幾個月又沉寂下來你有沒有受到什麼壓力啊不會不會不會會不會傳過水無痕不會"},{"start":278.47,"end":307.916,"text":"不會齁?會做?什麼時候做?你那時候6月講說2025要做捏2025要做的時候相對來講你這個時候應該有詳細的內容阿有做嗎?我們現在跟其他的部會如果談過以後就很快就會進行跟其他部會談有沒有遇到什麼阻力阿?都沒有?就非常順利的一路往前?我們希望這樣嘛你又變你希望我到目前沒有碰到困難嘛目前沒有碰到困難但是我不能預測未來是不是會碰到困難所以我只能這樣跟委員報告那你有沒有具體的時間表勒?"},{"start":309.404,"end":332.786,"text":"目前為之很順利那明年比如說明年下半年或者是後年上路什麼有沒有具體的時間表我們這個可能齁跟委員報告這個真正是方向是這樣子但是我們想應該還要跟電價審議委員報告我跟你講這個到最後預算審查的時候這個希望有一個具體更加具體的一個說明你總要讓大家知道說台電的財務正在改善"},{"start":333.447,"end":333.567,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":976,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時55分）謝謝主席。郭部長有請。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：午安。陳啟昱這些王八蛋，渾蛋透頂。我相信新任的行政院官員，包含郭部長在內，應該很想掃蕩這些綠能蟑螂，就是運用綠能政策的機會去賺錢的人。但是我今天想要跟部長討論的是，這些錢都是賺誰的錢？其實都是賺政府的錢，對不對？因為不管是成立什麼樣的子公司，開什麼樣的案子，最後賣出去的對象不是台電，就是所謂的國營企業等等，對不對？部長。這些人他們在外面怎麼搞錢，最後發出來的電，他們賺的錢，都從哪裡來？是不是都是賣給台電？是不是都是從台電的系統去支出？"],["郭部長智輝：不過我們不一定會跟他們買特別貴的電啊。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是你就有一個躉購的機制嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：那個電的錢，應該不是賺國家的錢，應該是賺廠商的錢，而不是賺台電的錢。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼這一段時間綠電會蓬勃發展，台電的財務壓力會大幅上升？其實我們在之前總質詢都討論過了，對不對？就是說台電的成本還是相對高的嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的錢，不是說只有針對這一家買會比較好，而是……"],["牛委員煦庭：大家都一樣嘛。但是它是一個相對優惠的價格，你不反對嘛？對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我在想，剛才委員垂詢的這一部分，對不起，容我再表達一下……"],["牛委員煦庭：你再消化一下，但是到最後都是台電要買單嘛？因為到時候都是送到台電裡面，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：要嘛就是我們的政策有錯誤……"],["牛委員煦庭：它就會形成台電的成本嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：會賣出去？"],["郭部長智輝：它也可以賣給外面的廠商。"],["牛委員煦庭：它也可以賣給外面的廠商，這就是我今天要跟你討論的事情。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：馬上我們要審查經濟部的預算，今天財政委員會跟經濟委員會也聯席在審查追加預算，其實就是因為台電的財務狀況不太好，所以要動用國家納稅人的錢來做補貼，對不對？那今天我們如果沒有把這件事情講清楚，沒有導引一些政策的改變，你要我們放行這個預算是不可能的事情，台電的錢坑其實很難解。上一次我們在總質詢的時候，我們要求你照財務模型去提報告，後來你也沒有提，只有給我兩張書面回覆，這是不夠的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：要花時間寫，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們年底的時候會提出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：年底的時候會寫？好，這個部分我希望你比照企業的規格來寫，讓財務的部分更透明，這是第一個。"],["郭部長智輝：我會用三張表來表達，就是損益表、資產負債表跟現金流量表。"],["牛委員煦庭：我也希望還有預估的模型，你在企業的時候，多少都會做一些預估的模型，包含未來幾年預估的能源價格等等。"],["郭部長智輝：對啊。那個從財務報表裡面就可以去演示。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。現在核心的問題還是一樣，也就是說，我們會用一個相對比較昂貴的成本或比較高的價格去躉購綠電，但是真的從台電裡面專案放出去的比例其實是相對低的，我們大概發了兩百多億度的綠電，但是真正在市場流通的大概只有15億度，其他統統都進台電大水庫嘛，對不對？現在的問題就是，我們高價躉購綠電，就是綠電進了台電的大水庫之後，電價是統一的，我們又不能隨便漲電價，所以實務上來講，就是綠電高額的發電，但是其實沒有辦法回收，這個就是造成台電財務壓力的一個核心的原因。我之前注意到，部長曾經有提一個概念，叫做所謂綠電分艙，也就是說用不同的價格來計算，我覺得這樣的制度其實沒有什麼不好，對不對？這個制度好的地方，第一個，可以跟國際接軌，國際上大部分有在推動綠能的國家也做了綠電分艙，高價發的綠電就用相對高的價格買，反正企業有需求。第二個就是簡單明瞭，在行政作業的程序上，改一改電費單就好了嘛，對不對？第三個是符合你的政策承諾，上次我們在總質詢的時候，你講這個因應企業需要的綠能比較多，因為全世界推行淨零碳排，所以他們當然應該要負擔相對的成本，那就用分艙的方式來處理。我覺得目前沒有什麼不對的，你自己曾經在6月的時候有提你正在研擬這件事情，7月的時候接受專訪，你又再講一次這件事情，那請問到了現在進度是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在進度還是持續在進行中，我們現在要先把公司設立起來，所以我們現在在進行中。"],["牛委員煦庭：你做綠電分艙，甚至連公司都不用設立，你修改台電收電費的方式，不就好了嗎？你現在還去搞一些公司或是叫中鋼……那個就是老調重彈嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：台電也有在準備。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要問的就是這樣子的政策的進度，這個政策我認為有助於改善台電的財務結構，那這個政策具體的進度到底是什麼？我很擔心，你6月、7月講的話，讓大家覺得好像有一點改變的樣子，然後過了幾個月又沉寂下來，你有沒有受到什麼壓力啊？"],["郭部長智輝：不會，不會，不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：會不會船過水無痕？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：不會？會做？什麼時候做？你6月說2025年要做，2025年要做的話，相對來講，你這個時候應該要有詳細的內容，有做嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在如果跟其他的部會談過了以後就會很快進行。"],["牛委員煦庭：跟其他的部會談，有沒有遇到什麼阻力？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：都沒有？就非常順利地一路往前？"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望這樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：又變成你希望。"],["郭部長智輝：我到目前沒有碰到困難。"],["牛委員煦庭：目前沒有碰到困難。"],["郭部長智輝：我不能夠預測未來是不是會碰到困難，所以我只能這樣跟委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你有沒有具體的時間表呢？目前為止很順利，那明年下半年或後年上路，有沒有具體的時間表？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，方向是這樣子，但是我們應該還要跟電價審議委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我跟你講，到最後預算審查的時候，我希望有一個更加具體的說明，你總是要讓大家知道台電的財務正在改善，你才有辦法說這個大額的補貼下不為例嘛。其實我的概念就是這樣而已啊。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但不要說目前很順利，然後後來又沒有然後，這樣很奇怪。在審議的時候，我希望可以提交詳細的報告，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，辛苦了。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩有請部長請郭部長委員好部長好 台研綠能的弊案雪球越滾越大整個社會都非常的關心"},{"start":28.413,"end":49.507,"text":"之前當然有一些特定的媒體出來擦脂抹粉說蘇貞昌3年多前就知道了我看到這個新聞我是覺得非常可笑理由是這整個案子我從我回到立法院之前我就不斷的在追蹤去年在這個經濟委員會也是台灣民眾黨的常委委員在這邊公開質詢了以後"},{"start":56.252,"end":85.119,"text":"我們的經濟部才開始動作所以大家都在問蘇貞昌如果知道3年多還要等到晨晚會質詢了以後經濟部才動起來那請問之前到底在幹嘛但這也不關您的事這個都是您上任部長以前的事情我們對於政治責任跟行政責任的歸屬我向來的個性是一碼歸一碼就事論事把它討論清楚"},{"start":86.192,"end":113.742,"text":"但我要跟部長說明的是什麼上一次我在經濟委員會質詢的時候你沒來是次長來的那個時候針對次長來的時候我有針對要求他針對台研綠能的部分以及我等一下要說的另外一個也是台研綠能但是是在台南七股的弊案處理的狀況請他加以說明我們先一樣一樣來第一個事情是說"},{"start":115.354,"end":141.702,"text":"經濟部回給我的公文我不曉得有沒有簽到你那邊上面說他已經對經理人提告了所謂對經理人提告這個詞可能用詞不是很精確我有點看不懂是提民事訴訟還是提刑事告訴部長您知道嗎這個部分我想應該在我這個來內閣之前應該就已經提出了"},{"start":142.705,"end":146.527,"text":"是嗎?是提民事訴訟還是提刑事告訴?有人知道嗎?沒有,你知道就上來協助部長,不要客氣。跟委員報告,因為這個是台綠的經理人嘛,所以是台綠有向他提起刑事的告訴。民事球場呢?準備什麼時候告?"},{"start":165.638,"end":193.368,"text":"就是基本上要對於那個損失到底是多少所以現在對於台率損失多少還沒有掌握嗎因為我們目前知道台率到底還需要多久才知道它會損失多少不好意思齁我給你回答問題請你針對問題回答我們在上面問答不是我在這邊講你在那邊各說各話我們一個問題一個問題來把它講清楚第一個你說還沒有提民事訴訟理由是說損失還要評估"},{"start":195.469,"end":219.109,"text":"這個損失還要評估多久因為這個東西我們跟台泥當中有許多的現在繼續要進行仲裁那因為有一些的可能可以透過仲裁拿回一些我們的一些那個金額所以到時候要等到仲裁結束以後會比較確定的知道說到底確定的金額以後提告的對象是誰應該就是如果說要看如果能夠離得近再經過減掉的協助的話那應該就是經理人"},{"start":222.745,"end":236.425,"text":"經理人是誰?應該是經理人經理人是誰?就經理人就是過去我們就過去台綠的董事長跟總經理所以是要對陳起玉提告?就是說等到確定以後看看我只提醒你們一件事齁給的書面報告"},{"start":238.446,"end":260.061,"text":"寫清楚還要評估多久第二個請經濟部特別注意督促喔消滅時效的問題你不要在那邊評估阿在那邊摸在那邊混阿等到消滅時效過去了以後大家要追究責任阿才說阿不好意思我們提告太晚了阿對方提出消滅時效的抗辯阿內行的人阿知道要怎麼放水"},{"start":267.833,"end":279.31,"text":"所以我特別在這邊質詢提醒一下經濟部好好督促國家損失多少錢台率損失多少錢每一塊錢全部都要追回來部長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":280.627,"end":303.575,"text":"我的範圍內一定沒問題啊 可以啦 部長權力很大 我對你有信心啦 你的範圍內一定可以把這個事情處理得很徹底啊第二個事情喔 我上次在這邊質詢 我問說 台南七股的漁電工生案 一樣喔 是台研綠能的喔我問他們 說你們處理了沒有 結果次長在這邊跟我說9月3號就移送了"},{"start":304.295,"end":329.642,"text":"我聽了就很狐疑啊因為我一直掌握到的訊息從頭到尾處理只有嘉義、益族、台南、七股根本沒處理他上次在這邊回答我說9月3號就移送了我說好沒有關係啊在國會備詢不要信口開河回去用書面報告啊交上來結果交上來了以後啊部長根本沒處理啊還在了解當中啊這樣的效率部長滿意嗎"},{"start":331.984,"end":348.743,"text":"呃 我想我跟委員一樣 不會很滿意不會很滿意嗎 好請部長回去齁 轉告次長上次我把他當成是他資訊不足不是故意說話書面回來沒有好好處理部長也不滿意嗎"},{"start":350.1,"end":371.161,"text":"麻煩回去督促我只問一個問題啊因為台研綠能在台南七股搞的爛事我質詢很多次了但是我邊質詢就邊在看我們的經濟部我們的台研到底有沒有把它當回事啊結果到最近書面回覆確定沒有處理嘛"},{"start":371.661,"end":396.246,"text":"那為什麼我會提醒經濟部這件事情一定要處理阿非常快我很快就把它結束了因為犯罪手法跟嘉義異族的犯罪手法跟在台南七股阿一模一樣一模一樣也就是大把的錢全部都在外面的白手套公司那個白手套公司叫紅輝負責人現在被收押了"},{"start":397.492,"end":422.643,"text":"為什麼叫他白手套公司因為陳啟玉的兒子在那邊看著那個錢包嘛肥肉全部都到白手套公司結果我們國家的台顏綠能拿著台顏綠能的招牌啊去做生意結果台顏綠能以商業術語來講不要說吃骨頭啊渣渣分到一點渣渣嘉義一族跟台南七股一模一樣"},{"start":423.988,"end":438.534,"text":"而且這件事情誇張到什麼程度啊這件事情誇張到當初在幹這件事情的時候台南七股實際上面營運控的是誰啊是聯合再生捏是聯合再生捏"},{"start":439.761,"end":466.292,"text":"又是我們另外一個我們的國發會投資啊號稱綠能國家隊跟我們另外一個打著國家的招牌的台研綠能在搞這種事情啊部長您稍微看一下我把發票都貼上去了我為什麼把發票貼上去啊那家公司電力公司就是當初聯合再生實際上面控制的那家電力公司"},{"start":470.063,"end":496.011,"text":"第一期兩千兩百萬第二期一千一百萬付給誰?付給鴻輝就是我剛所講的白手套公司上面的名目是什麼?服務費服務費一期的服務費兩千兩百萬一期的服務費一千一百萬這到底是服務費還是開發票給回扣再洗錢請台元綠能"},{"start":501.045,"end":520.475,"text":"請台媛綠能回去了解清楚好嗎?好那第二個部分因為也涉及到我們國發會國發會裡面有董事的聯合再生嘛那剛好我們國發會在聯合再生裡面也有董事請我們的國發會在聯合再生的董事去了解清楚可以嗎?"},{"start":523.039,"end":547.683,"text":"國發會的部分我要徵詢沒有關係阿您很容易阿你打個電話給國發會的主委說阿主委我今天在經濟委員會有一個立委叫黃國昌質詢了這個問題提醒我跟您講一聲這樣可以嗎好我來打電話看他要表現因為這些事情太離譜了阿我一直在追的案子一個聯合再生一個台研令人兩個都出事結果這兩家公司還連結在一起在台南旗鼓"},{"start":548.263,"end":550.606,"text":"但大家好奇的是什麼?"},{"start":550.606,"end":554.892,"text":"台南七股這個案子是不是因為聯合再生也有份?"},{"start":554.892,"end":556.413,"text":"台研綠能也有份?"},{"start":556.413,"end":559.858,"text":"到目前為止從經濟部到檢調根本沒有人在動"},{"start":560.99,"end":587.225,"text":"再麻煩部長回去瞭解一下,可以嗎?我要瞭解這個過程,因為我們不是檢調,所以請檢調幫忙。 是,這我瞭解。 是,是,是,是,是,不會啦,《台言綠能》裡面很多資料啦,經濟部肯查的話,絕對查得出來啊。這些發票... 因為我們不是檢調的專業,所以也很難判斷。沒有啦,這些發票我都拿得到,我跟部長保證,你們只要有人願意去《台言綠能》查,一定查得出來的。"},{"start":588.459,"end":589.58,"text":"請部長拍人下去查"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。臺鹽綠能的弊案，雪球越滾越大，整個社會都非常關心，之前當然有一些特定的媒體出來擦脂抹粉，說蘇貞昌三年多前就知道了。我看到這個新聞，就覺得非常可笑，理由是，這整個案子，我從回到立法院之前，就不斷地在追蹤，去年在經濟委員會會議，也是台灣民眾黨的陳琬惠委員在這邊公開質詢了以後，經濟部才開始動作，所以大家都在問，蘇貞昌如果知道三年多，還要等到陳琬惠質詢了以後，經濟部才動起來，那請問之前到底在幹嘛？但這也不關您的事，這個都是您上任部長以前的事情，對於政治責任跟行政責任的歸屬，我向來的個性是一碼歸一碼，就事論事，把它討論清楚，但我要跟部長說明的是什麼？上一次我在經濟委員會質詢的時候，您沒來，是次長來，針對次長來的時候，我有要求他針對臺鹽綠能的部分，以及我等一下要說的，另外一個也是臺鹽綠能，但是是在臺南七股的弊案處理的狀況，請他加以說明。我們現在一樣一樣來，第一個事情是說，經濟部回給我的公文，我不曉得有沒有簽到你那邊，上面說他已經對經理人提告了，所謂「對經理人提告」這個詞可能用詞不是很精確，我有點看不懂，是提民事訴訟還是提刑事告訴，部長，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分，我想，應該在我來內閣之前就已經提出了。"],["黃委員國昌：是嗎？是提民事訴訟還是提刑事告訴？有人知道嗎？你知道就上來協助部長，不要客氣。"],["胡司長文中：跟委員報告，因為這個是臺綠的經理人，所以是臺綠有向他提起刑事的告訴。"],["黃委員國昌：民事求償呢？"],["胡司長文中：民事求償還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：準備什麼時候告？"],["胡司長文中：基本上對於損失到底是多少要計算出來……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在對於臺綠損失多少還沒有掌握嗎？"],["胡司長文中：對。因為我們目前知道臺綠到底還有多少虧損……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久才知道損失多少？"],["胡司長文中：還有許多仲裁案在進行……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思喔，我給你回答問題，請你針對問題回答，我們在上面問答，不是我在這邊講，你在那邊各說各話，我們一個問題一個問題來，把它講清楚。"],["胡司長文中：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，你說還沒有提民事訴訟，理由是損失還要評估，這個損失還要評估多久？"],["胡司長文中：因為這我們跟台泥有許多的事現在在進行仲裁，因為有一些可能可以透過仲裁拿回我們的一些金額，所以要等到仲裁結束以後，會比較確定地知道到底是多少。"],["黃委員國昌：確定了金額以後，提告的對象是誰？"],["胡司長文中：如果能夠釐清，再經過檢調的協助，那應該就是經理人。"],["黃委員國昌：經理人是誰？"],["胡司長文中：應該是經理人。"],["黃委員國昌：經理人是誰？"],["胡司長文中：經理人就是過去臺綠的董事長跟總經理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是要對陳啟昱提告？"],["胡司長文中：就是說，等確定以後看看……"],["黃委員國昌：我只提醒你們一件事，給個書面報告，寫清楚，還要評估多久？第二個，請經濟部特別注意督促消滅時效的問題，你不要在那邊評估，在那邊摸，在那邊混，等到消滅時效過去了以後，大家要追究責任，你們才說：「不好意思，我們提告太晚了。」屆時對方提出消滅時效的抗辯。內行的人知道要怎麼放水，所以我特別在這邊質詢，提醒一下經濟部，好好督促，國家損失多少錢，臺綠損失多少錢，每一塊錢全部都要追回來，部長可以承諾嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我的範圍內一定沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：可以啦。部長權力很大，我對你有信心啦。你的範圍內一定可以把這個事情處理得很澈底。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員對我有信心。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個事情，我上次在這邊質詢，我問說臺南七股的漁電共生案，一樣是臺鹽綠能的，我問他們說：「你們處理了沒有？」結果次長在這邊跟我說9月3日就移送了，我聽了就很狐疑，因為我一直掌握到的訊息，從頭到尾，處理的只有嘉義義竹的部分，臺南七股的部分根本沒處理，他上次在這邊回答我說9月3日就移送了，我說：「好，沒有關係啦。在國會備詢，不要信口開河，回去用書面報告交上來。」結果交上來了以後，部長，根本沒處理，還在瞭解當中，這樣的效率，部長滿意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我跟委員一樣，不會很滿意。"],["黃委員國昌：不會很滿意嘛？好，請部長回去轉告次長，上次我當成是他資訊不足，不是故意說謊，書面回來，沒有好好處理，部長也不滿意嘛，麻煩回去督促。我只問一個問題，因為臺鹽綠能在臺南七股搞的爛事，我質詢很多次了，但是我邊質詢就邊在看，我們的經濟部，我們的臺鹽，到底有沒有把它當回事啊？結果到最近書面回覆，確定沒有處理嘛。那為什麼我會提醒經濟部這件事情一定要處理？非常快，我很快就把它結束了，因為犯罪手法一樣，嘉義義竹的犯罪手法跟在臺南七股的犯罪手法一模一樣，一模一樣，也就是大把的錢全部都在外面的白手套公司，那個白手套公司叫鴻暉，負責人現在被收押了，為什麼叫它白手套公司？因為陳啟昱的兒子就在那邊看著那個錢包，肥肉全部都到白手套公司，結果我們國家的臺鹽綠能，拿著臺鹽綠能的招牌去做生意，結果臺鹽綠能以商業術語來講，不要說吃骨頭，只分到一點渣渣，嘉義義竹的狀況跟臺南七股的狀況一模一樣，而且這件事情誇張到什麼程度？這件事情誇張到，當初在幹這件事情的時候，臺南七股案實際上營運控制的是誰啊？是聯合再生，是聯合再生，又是我們國發會的另外一個投資，號稱綠能國家隊，跟另外一個打著國家招牌的臺鹽綠能，在搞這種事情。部長，您稍微看一下，我把發票都貼上去了，我為什麼把發票貼上去？那一家電力公司，就是當初聯合再生實際上控制的那一家電力公司，第一期2,200萬，第二期1,100萬，付給誰？付給鴻暉，就是我剛剛所講的白手套公司。上面的名目是什麼？服務費。一期的服務費2,200萬，一期的服務費1,100萬，這到底是服務費還是開發票給回扣在洗錢？請臺鹽綠能回去瞭解清楚好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個部分，因為也涉及到國發會，國發會裡面有董事是聯合再生的人，剛好國發會在聯合再生裡面也派有董事，請國發會在聯合再生的董事去瞭解清楚，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：國發會的部分，我要徵詢……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。很容易，你打個電話給國發會的主委，說：「主委，我今天在經濟委員會，有一個立委叫黃國昌，質詢了這個問題，提醒我，跟您講一聲。」這樣可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我來打電話看看……"],["黃委員國昌：因為這件事情太離譜了，我一直在追的案子，一個聯合再生，一個臺鹽綠能，兩個都出事，結果這兩家公司還連結在一起，在臺南七股，但大家好奇的是什麼？臺南七股這個案子，是不是因為聯合再生也有份，臺鹽綠能也有份？到目前為止，從經濟部到檢調，根本沒有人在動，再麻煩部長回去瞭解一下，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我來瞭解這個過程，因為我們不是檢調……"],["黃委員國昌：是，這我了解。"],["郭部長智輝：我要請檢調幫忙。"],["黃委員國昌：不會啦，臺鹽綠能裡面很多資料，經濟部肯查的話，絕對查得出來。"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們不是檢調的專業，所以也很難判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，這些發票我都拿得到，我跟部長保證，你們只要有人願意去臺鹽綠能查，一定查得出來的。這樣可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：要內行的人去，我們這些外行的去，也是查不到。"],["黃委員國昌：不然這樣好了，不用錢，你派我去，你派我去。"],["郭部長智輝：我們不敢啦，我不是你的上級關係。"],["黃委員國昌：不會、不會、不會。絕對可以，只要你願意，你派我去，你派我去，我去查完以後，我把報告交給部長，這樣好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：不敢啦。"],["黃委員國昌：不用，不用。"],["主席：謝謝，那請部長派人直接下去查了，派人下去查。","好，中午的會議不休息，延長會議時間。","現在請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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個案例辦法反而就有修改研修的計畫那我們併同接下來這個保障法的修法會一併來處理那你這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一分因為辦法你們要改很快阿"},{"start":636.21,"end":658.528,"text":"安慰辦法本來的修改計劃,但是它因為一直跟消防員安全提升這個議題有納入討論所以當時就對於修安慰辦法還是用職安法還是用消防法哪一個管道來處理比較適當那最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改所以我們會搭配的這個消防這個三讀後的這個消防法"},{"start":658.948,"end":678.518,"text":"然後來設計我們這邊對於這個植物相關風險的部分。好,那再麻煩你們把相關的資料給我們,因為我們畢竟我辦公室現在主要還是法律人才,我希望說我們能夠看一下,那我們如果有這個能力能夠給一點建議,我們也希望給一些建議。因為我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙。"},{"start":679.278,"end":681.119,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":701.186,"end":717.602,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":717.722,"end":718.963,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":736.118,"end":737.239,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1278,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩請秘書長以及蔡主委。"],["主席：請劉秘書長、蔡主委。"],["劉秘書長建忻：吳委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長早，蔡主委早。我現在主要討論一下這個霸凌的問題，前陣子勞動部發生那件事情之後，其實非常多人都打電話到我辦公室，我目前收到非常多，有衛福部的，有疾管署的，還有調查局、調查站的，還有社會局的，都打電話到我辦公室來申訴一些事情。因為我辦公室大部分的人都是從公部門來，我自己也當公務員二十幾年了，所以這次看到勞動部說「目的良善」，我們覺得這是滿離譜的一個說詞啦！","很多人來這邊的時候，都跟我們講說這個長官就天天罵啦！不然就是抓底下人來背黑鍋啦！然後對的都長官拿，錯的都怪同仁去抓戰犯，很多人打電話來都說是官官相護。來講的都是一些公務員，所以這是一個長期的問題，為什麼這個會期我們一直在推揭弊者保護法？因為我們總是覺得還是要讓機關、公部門或是一些國營企業，甚至有人認為私部門也要，要有一些人能夠勇於出來揭開弊案，然後揭開這些弊案之後，法律、政府必須要保障他的人身安全還有工作權，那這個才能夠攤開在陽光下。","我想請問考試院一個很基本的問題，最近勞動部發生這件事情，那考試院有沒有定義什麼叫做霸凌？這邊有沒有一個定義？因為很多東西應該都是你們主管的，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：考試院主管法規裡面，目前並沒有霸凌的定義，現在霸凌的定義在人事總處的指引裡面是有一個說明，它也參考了勞動部那個指引中對職場霸凌的內容，當然這個部分如果接下來在法制化的過程中，我們對這個定義也需要再來檢視跟找專家討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，可能秘書長你們要稍微思考這個點，因為這個名詞就是太不確定的法律概念了，所以有的人打電話過來講了半天，我們的同仁很多都當過公務員，他們都要去思考到底符不符合所謂「霸凌」這兩個字的定義，也就是說考試院這邊並沒有一個明確的定義出來，到底怎麼樣子是很淺的管理不當，有的是不是已經上升到霸凌的程度，被害者也不知道該怎麼講，那我們接受他們打電話過來詢問的，我們也不知道要怎麼去定義，所以這一塊可能要麻煩你們也要有一個態度出來。"],["劉秘書長建忻：後面修法的過程中，會把各位委員的意見都納入思考跟討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，為什麼我會這樣提？因為我昨天有開一個公聽會，就是打詐欺、打詐的公聽會，其實打詐一個很重要的點就是我們要先讓民眾知道什麼樣的東西可能是詐騙的訊息，所以識詐是在打詐之前，要怎麼樣辨別自己已經受騙；一樣的，怎麼樣去識別霸凌也是將來的一個問題，所以我才會說麻煩你們一定要特別注意一下這個點。","就像剛剛很多人在批評剛上任的勞動部部長洪申翰，說他19日在一個節目裡面就有透露，說他在公務員輕生之前就有聽過謝宜容的「鬼故事」，他也有向勞動部反映，但是即便是執政黨籍的立委向勞動部反映，也毫無作為，所以這個東西到底要怎麼樣去評斷呢？變成說現行保障公務員的規定已經失靈了嘛！那考試院，這是你們一個很重要的職責啊！你們不能到現在都還沒有一個明確的定義出來，所以這個部分還是要麻煩你們，因為總是要讓公務員知道什麼是霸凌，他才能夠知道要怎麼申訴。","其實我跟你講，敢出來申訴的公務員已經很少了，我自己以前在當基層檢察官的時候，也沒少過被長官霸凌啦！我這輩子沒有申訴過，而且檢察官、法官都還是獨立辦案、有一定的權力，更不要講基層公務員或是那個……就是這樣，我覺得現場只要有當過公務員的，多多少少都能夠體會我的想法。我想請問一下，針對這一次事件，勞動部有說要修職安法，考試院作為保障還有培訓全國公務員的主管機關，在這個事件發生之後，有沒有去思考就公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法去做修正？有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實上禮拜我跟蔡主委還有施部長就這個新聞事件交換意見的時候，我們也覺得法制面的部分，包含保障法和安衛辦法的部分都可以來強化，把這個霸凌做法制化的研究。昨天在立法院審查考試院被提名人的時候，院長被提名人周前副院長他也有做相關的宣示，所以我想這個會是接下來考試院最積極的工作。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，秘書長，因為這一次勞動部的事情沒有出來之前，大家也不敢多講，但這件事情出來之後，其實有非常多人就敢出來說話，就像之前有一段時間在燒#MeToo事件一樣，很多被害人都一個一個出來，目前我們的人事行政總處有一個員工職場霸凌防治及處理流程，但是各個機關到底要不要訂這個作業規定，其實到現在也都不知道。機關不訂好像也沒有什麼法律效果，就算訂了好像也沒有什麼處理的效果，最後大家還是回到公務員保障法的方式去申訴，到時候還是要換你們頭痛啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：機制要更明確一點，我想就是讓員工知道，如果發生事情時，他應該要尋求什麼管道來處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：釋字第785號其實也有提到，我們要保障政府公務員的健康權，這個也是考試院業務的重中之重，因此，麻煩你們要去思考，在發生了這件事情之後，考試院到底能為公務員做什麼？相關的修法該怎麼做？","為什麼今天我會提這個？其實我國的勞工有職安法給予保障，但是職安法適用到的公職人員可能僅止於公職的醫護人員或教師，除此之外的公務員並不被職安法所保護。最近有滿多團體出來喊話，希望把公務員一併列入職安法的保障範圍內，像是書記官的團體、警察的團體、消防員的團體及其他許多公務員的團體，你們上網應該都查得到。請問秘書長，你們對這個有什麼看法？"],["劉秘書長建忻：第一個是現在公部門的部分，其實也有5個類別的機關必須適用職安法，所以職安法還是觸及了部分的公務人員。當然，其他部分沒有全面適用的，其實各機關都應該要善盡自己的管理責任。今天如果上級機關對於所有的監督責任都免責，但是將它集中在某一個機關，譬如都是在職安署的部分處理，我想他們的工作量及業管範圍也會變大。"],["吳委員宗憲：為什麼我要提這個？最主要還是希望引入外部的力量來監督，很多東西如果讓內部自己申訴的話，問題是我的霸凌來源就是我的長官，所以我要去向他申訴嗎？或是去向他挑選的幹部申訴嗎？這樣我不是找死嗎？因此，這個就變得沒有任何意義。很多時候我覺得制度要能儘量引入外部的一些力量來監督，可能對公務員會比較有保障。現在大部分公務員只適用保訓會的公務人員安全衛生辦法、現在就只有這個，但這個保障是不是足夠？可能要麻煩你們去思考，就這次事件發生之後，我們是否能夠修正這個衛生辦法，看看是否能夠更保障現在的公務員。因為每個打電話過來的人都是滿腹苦水，我們都是公務員出身的、我們都很清楚公部門有什麼樣的問題，而且公務員又比勞工更不敢申訴，我想都是這個樣子。事實上，我能夠理解為什麼很多單位、很多團體會出來希望公務員也一併適用職安法，因為職場上的安全、危險、健康或不健康及職災的風險等等，其實並沒有分公部門或私部門，大家都一樣危險啦！因此，我希望對於公務員的保障儘量能夠更普遍一點、更良善一點。"],["劉秘書長建忻：安衛辦法本來就有修改、研修的計畫，我們會與接下來保障法的修法一併處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們這個辦法的修改能不能給我們一份？因為你們要修改辦法很快啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：報告委員，其實安衛辦法本來就有修改計畫，但是因為它一直與消防員安全提升的議題一起被討論，所以當時就對於是修安衛辦法、或是用職安法、或是用消防法，哪一個管道來處理會比較適當？最後立法院也三讀通過了消防法的修改，因此，我們會搭配三讀後的消防法，設計我們這邊對於職務相關風險的部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：再麻煩你們將相關資料提供給我們，畢竟我的辦公室裡主要還是法律人才，希望能夠給我們看一下，如果有這個能力可以給一點建議，我們也希望能給一些建議。"],["劉秘書長建忻：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我拉了非常多以前公部門的同仁來立法院幫忙，每一位都在公部門待了十幾、二十年，對於很多東西都會有同感，因為現在有少部分長官的位子都變成是一種酬庸，所以他們對這個職務不一定真的能夠理解。","最後一個，還是一樣滿希望就申訴的部分能夠引入外部的單位，在你們設計制度的時候要去思考，有沒有辦法引入外部單位或外部的人去看到底有沒有霸凌或是能改善什麼，否則，真的很多人會因為害怕秋後算帳而不敢說。像我自己是念公共衛生的，我們都知道在社會致病因子裡面，職場霸凌是其中一項，而且西方與我們亞洲都是一樣的觀念。一個人成年之後的社會致病因子，其中職場霸凌是一個非常重要的社會致病因子，它會導致你生病、導致你的生活出問題，這一塊真的是不分勞工或公務員，一定要麻煩你們就公務員的部分能夠積極有所作為。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝秘書長。"],["主席：謝謝召委、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長。","我們先處理會議時間，上午會議時間於詢答結束後繼續進行至預算解凍案處理完畢為止。","接著請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","王鴻薇","謝龍介"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管「考選業務基金」收支部分；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公務人員退休撫卹\n基金」收支部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘\n部主管「公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金基金」收支部分；五、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於考試院主管預算凍結項目共4案【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310702_00003"}}},{"id":"157521","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157521","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177ab1007103e3ce8adb6e756e96dd8ac7a38660580be5266821314697a4fd0cd6bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:35:07 - 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謝謝主席那我們是不是有請部長請郭部長那以及商業發展署署長產業發展署現在是署長請商業署長然後還有中小及企業新創企業署企業署長"},{"start":33.683,"end":61.818,"text":"委員好部長好部長那我今天在要質詢那我同時也希望這三個單位這個我們經濟部所詳這三個署那因為我我一直在疑惑那我們經濟部這樣做不同的署但是就人民來說他們一旦遇到需要經濟部要做一些對接的時候會怎麼做"},{"start":64.532,"end":84.264,"text":"到底哪一些屬於商業發展哪一些屬於產業發展又哪一些屬於中小級新創企業我就比一個例子如果今天是包裝機的協會或者是工具機的協會他們要邀請國際的廠商都來台灣然後來舉辦在我們的世貿來舉辦策展"},{"start":93.329,"end":112.693,"text":"那我們當然是希望經濟部來協助他們包括說場地啦包括很多事情都需要經濟部協助那這樣的一個包裝機的一個協會他是要找中小企業署還是要找產業發展署還是商業發展署應該是貿易署應該要貿易署因為他是國際貿易那就是貿易署所以這樣起來不是很難嗎"},{"start":120.234,"end":138.154,"text":"我如果是說一個產業來講我想就是到我們的這個產業發展署那如果是它的形態它是屬於中小企業也可以透過中小企業發展署那如果是外國的廠商我們建議就走國貿署這樣子"},{"start":138.957,"end":141.759,"text":"經濟部確實非常大,這裡面重疊的部分也有,但是我們會透過次長在協調這些事務。"},{"start":157.031,"end":176.317,"text":"非常多複雜那那從山上到海邊都是經濟管的當然是很很大嗎那我現在是站在說好真正中小企業遇到協助的時候那我我再問一個例子嗎好像最在幾個月前有推出的深層的節能的一個計畫是那要推動了因為要因為要這個淨零碳排要"},{"start":179.438,"end":179.478,"text":"蔡易餘"},{"start":196.948,"end":221.607,"text":"發言委員能源署當然是負責整個EXCO方案那要執行落實我們就是分開了如果是製造業我們再到產發署去如果是服務業的話我們再到上發署去不一樣的對象但是我們的目的就是說如何去我們現在的做法是建立一個標準建立一個模型"},{"start":222.688,"end":224.609,"text":"中小企業能夠全力發展深度節能"},{"start":239.125,"end":265.306,"text":"部長說大概有一些脈絡,那我想要請教還是一樣在中小企業事實上我已經很多次的跟部長去說事實上台灣現在如果是在高科技公司他們的發展很好但是中小企業以現在來說確實很多產業是屬於寒冬的狀況比方說像鋼鐵業像螺絲業那尤其算一些傳統的"},{"start":267.027,"end":288.977,"text":"的一些服務業事實上他們現在基本上狀況是不好的那我之前有跟部長講過我們在這一次台電的這個電價這個就是還漲的一個標準來說事實上我們對中小企業我們都是用今年做指標但是如果像鋼鐵或是螺絲他們可能從烏俄戰爭戰爭後"},{"start":291.238,"end":291.878,"text":"蔡易餘委員：蔡易餘委員．蔡易餘委員"},{"start":309.484,"end":328.791,"text":"對,那部長那針對這部分,你們現在要怎麼樣去協助像這些產業,平常他們很有競爭力,那遇到這樣一個景氣的一個寒冬的時候,那要不要協助他們渡過這個難關?第一個我們想到的是說,按照他現在的產業如何讓他能夠轉型、加值化。"},{"start":330.126,"end":330.466,"text":"蔡易餘發言委員"},{"start":349.969,"end":374.918,"text":"然後整理資訊來協助他但是因為他可能是很小的公司或者微型的企業所以我們會透過他的他整個的供應鏈的這個關係部長我現在你也知道像這樣的微型的供應鏈可是很多都是隱藏隱形冠軍嘛他可能像螺絲他只是做一個部分的一個螺絲的一個齁其中的一個小配件去行銷全世界"},{"start":375.798,"end":382.509,"text":"所以事實上他們的競爭力是有的他們只是遇到產業循環的時候會遇到他們辛苦的時候所以我們會透過技術的成長我們會有金屬中心然後會有生產力中心我們會透過論壇"},{"start":390.842,"end":401.908,"text":"然後把buyer把這個購買的這個廠家國外的廠家邀請進來臺灣然後透過論壇發表技術然後讓我們這中小微企業都能夠進到這個購買的這個程序然後我們來這個整合跟這個這個購買的這個公司從供應鏈開始幫他解決這個問題所以我們相信透過這個高質化"},{"start":415.836,"end":440.727,"text":"然後再來我們就幫他因為整合以後供應鏈整合以後會讓他降低成本降低這個所謂配送的成本機會成本運送的成本來降低他的這個成本以後增加他的這個競爭力我相信我們透過整合以後把臺灣發展成適合在國內發展的產業跟適合做國外這個出口的這個產業那這樣子的話我想對他們來講幫助就會比較大"},{"start":445.649,"end":462.725,"text":"那我想保證這部分就是要在現在他們需要到三天我想保證剛才說的這些當然我們沒辦法協助他們最實際的至少我們要把一些方向給他們因為他們開始這些產業現在是很辛苦的好不好我們會透過這個"},{"start":465.772,"end":466.773,"text":"還有部長我覺得事實上現在也要關注一個議題"},{"start":494.605,"end":518.54,"text":"我們看到日韓現在對於所謂移工的政策是大幅的放寬所以現在全世界都在搶人才這個人才也許不只是白領甚至藍領的人才事實上全世界都在搶我覺得台灣要正視這個問題因為台灣過去一直被說成是說在很多公司我們賣書是會替世界會替日本跟韓國會訓練人"},{"start":521.042,"end":523.665,"text":"阿我們人家12單位 這些人就離開阿技術已經有阿 阿人就跑了阿這個都對於我們的產業是屬於不利的所以我們未來到底有沒有更進步的移工的一個政策"},{"start":536.198,"end":536.558,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":557.145,"end":557.325,"text":"蔡英文議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":896,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時35分）好，謝謝主席，那我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["蔡委員易餘：以及商業發展署署長、產業發展署署長、中小及新創企業署署長。"],["主席：請商業署長、產業署長、企業署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。我今天要質詢，我同時也希望經濟部所轄這三個單位來答復，因為我一直在疑惑，我們經濟部這樣分不同的署，但是就人民來說，他們一旦需要跟經濟部對接的時候，會搞不清楚，也就是說，到底哪一些是屬於商業發展，哪一些屬於產業發展，有哪些屬於中小及新創企業，我就舉一個例子，如果今天是包裝機的協會或者工具機的協會，要邀請國際的廠商來臺灣，然後在我們的世貿來舉辦策展，那我們當然是希望經濟部來協助他們，包括場地等各方面很多事情都需要經濟部協助，那包裝機協會是要找中小企業署，還是要找產業發展署，還是商業發展署？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是貿易署。"],["蔡委員易餘：應該是貿易署，因為是國際貿易？那就是貿易署。所以這樣說起來不是很複雜嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：如果是以一個產業來講，我想就是到我們的產業發展署；如果它的型態是屬於中小企業，也可以透過中小企業發展署；如果是外國的廠商，我們建議就走國貿署。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果涉及到外國，就是國貿署？"],["郭部長智輝：對。如果它是屬於只在做商業的promotion的話，那我想就是商業發展署。經濟部確實非常大，這裡面重疊的部分也有，但是我們會透過次長在協調這些事務。經濟部裡面業務非常多，非常複雜，從山上到海邊都是經濟部的業務。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然。經濟管的當然是很大，那我現在是站在為中小企業真正需要協助的時候來考量。我再問一個例子，在幾個月前有推出深度節能計畫，就要推動了，因為要淨零碳排，要省碳，現在有一個鼓勵產業，然後他們去用ESCO方案，ESCO方案分兩端，一個是施作方，一個是產業要去配合ESCO方案，那這個要找能源署？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，能源署當然是負責整個ESCO方案，要執行落實，我們就是分開了，如果是製造業，我們就分到產發署去；如果是服務業，我們就分到商發署去。雖然是不一樣的對象，但是我們現在的做法是建立一個標準，建立一個模型，然後去發展，再做垂直的部分，從整個供應鏈下去協助這些中小微企業，讓他們能夠全力來發展ESCO深度節能。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，所以部長說的大概有一些脈絡。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我還是一樣要請教有關中小企業的問題，我已經多次跟部長說，事實上臺灣現在如果是高科技公司，他們發展很好，但是以現在來說，確實很多產業的中小企業是屬於寒冬的狀況，比方說：鋼鐵業、螺絲業，尤其像一些傳統的、地方的一些服務業，事實上他們現在基本上狀況是不好的。我之前也有跟部長講過，在這一次台電電價緩漲的標準來說，我們對中小企業都是用今年作指標，但是如果像鋼鐵業或螺絲業，他們可能從烏俄戰爭後就已經陷入寒冬，這個寒冬現狀沒有好轉，所以等於是這兩、三年一直是持續處於低迷的狀況，如果在這個情況之下，他們一樣沒有辦法列為這一次政府特別關心的產業，沒有被照顧到。部長，針對這部分，你們現在要怎麼樣去協助他們？像這些產業，平常他們很有競爭力，遇到這樣一個景氣寒冬的時候，要怎樣協助他們度過這個難關？"],["郭部長智輝：第一個，我們想到的是，按照他們現在的產業，如何讓他們能夠轉型、加值化，讓他們不要在紅海的市場裡面隨波逐流，我們建議他們轉型到未來發展的產業加值，所以我們會透過數位化跟透過AI來幫助他們，整理資料、整理資訊，來協助他們。但是因為可能是一個很小的公司，或者是微型的企業，所以我們會透過整個供應鏈的關係……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我相信你也知道，像這樣的微型的供應鏈，很多都是隱形冠軍。像螺絲，有的只是做一個螺絲的小配件，去行銷全世界，所以事實上他們的競爭力是有的，他們只是遇到產業循環的時候，遇到他們辛苦的時候。"],["郭部長智輝：對。所以我們會透過技術的成長，我們會有金屬中心，然後會有生產力中心，我們會透過論壇，然後把buyer，把購買的國外廠家邀請進來臺灣，然後透過論壇發表技術，讓我們的中小微企業都能夠進到購買的程序，然後我們來整合，跟購買的公司，從供應鏈開始，幫他們解決這個問題。所以我們相信透過高值化，然後我們就幫他們整合，供應鏈整合以後，會降低成本，降低配送的成本、機會成本、運送的成本，降低成本以後，增加競爭力。我相信我們透過整合以後，對臺灣適合在國內發展的產業跟適合做國外出口的產業，幫助就會比較大。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。部長，現在他們需要幫忙，部長剛才說的這些，雖然我們沒辦法協助他們，至少我們要把一些方向告訴他們，因為這些產業現在確實是很辛苦的，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部自己擁有五個智庫，我們會透過智庫的搜尋，了解未來市場的發展，需要什麼樣新的技術，我們透過金屬中心，透過我們的工研院，透過這一些單位，來把技術先發展起來，然後再轉給這一些有力的廠商，對整個供應鏈來協作。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得事實上現在還要關注一個議題，我們看到日、韓現在對於移工政策是大幅放寬，所以現在全世界都在搶人才，這個人才也許不只是白領，甚至也有藍領的人才，事實上全世界都在搶，我覺得臺灣要正視這個問題，因為臺灣過去一直被說成是說在替全世界訓練人才，替日本跟韓國訓練人才，訓練滿12年以後，這些人就離開了，技術已經學到了，人就跑了，這個都對於我們的產業是不利的，所以我們未來到底有沒有更進步的移工政策，讓這一些移工可以來臺灣工作？甚至像日本，現在踏出的腳步很快，他們甚至都說，移工來，還可以帶著親人一起來，然後變成一個group，好像移工他們變成一個群體。在這方面，我覺得臺灣應該也要看著日韓的情勢，我們該放寬，然後該往更國際的方向來走，我們臺灣也應該考慮這一個。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝委員垂詢。這一部分，我們都有在進行。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那就再請我們經濟部都加油啦。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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"},{"start":523.886,"end":545.82,"text":"報告委員我們為了要加速我們設計跟用地取得我們合併一起來進行我們一起並行明年就會來進行另外用地取得部分我還是要提醒這個要加快因為有時候一些鄉親他對於這個土地徵收的這個價格什麼各方面會有很多的意見那如果你要經過複查複估這都拖很久了這應該加快來進行好這個部分我們來加快"},{"start":546.42,"end":572.595,"text":"好那最後一個我想平中線這個交通建設的部分我們還是持續要求交通平權那針對我們生活圈的道路還有很多鄉鎮的戀外道路還有一些橋樑的一個改建也迫不及待一定要請這個交通部來幫忙因為縣政府的這個財力我們是列作第五級這很辛苦的那我想這個我們的六年的生活圈道路我們有幾個案子"},{"start":573.235,"end":590.892,"text":"但是都被公路局這邊審查有一些意見包含我們有一些憑25線長治生活圈的工業區的林外道路還有墾丁大街的改善還有憑113線的一個改善工程還有最重要就是我們未來希望我們針對憑119線"},{"start":594.095,"end":614.92,"text":"還有憑119假線、憑200線跟憑200線假線這四個路段未來改編成一個省道。我想這個阿你有沒有去過鄉村報到嗎?這我們整個串聯之後我們發現這個路型必須優化要提升一個行駛的一個效能最重要是要增加觀光的一個吸引力跟交通的安全性"},{"start":615.78,"end":642.723,"text":"這部分如果可以做有效一個整合然後讓公路局跟縣政府能夠來合作我想對整個航村半島的公路的這個一個維護還有這個整個一個公路的發展是有很大的一個誘因這個部長願不願意支持報告委員這個部分我們都會支持那我們會跟縣政府大家來溝通因為他那個計畫要寫得比較完善一點到時候在我們的委員會裡面要審查也會比較容易通過所以我們會來協助縣政府怎麼把計畫寫得更完善"},{"start":643.504,"end":663.391,"text":"好那最後一個就是要拜託這個氣象署我們那個陳署長我們去年跟農業部有做一個農業氣象的一個資訊服務那有希望說在三年要投入2.15億建置100多個農業氣象站那以屏東來講非常非常需要因為我們最近這個細粒胎虹胎真的對我們造成很大的一個農業的損害"},{"start":664.591,"end":682.049,"text":"那如果說能夠做一個精準的一個災害天氣的一個參數的一個依據我想我們就可以協助農村免限勘這對我們的農業部也好我們的公所縣政府還有我們的農民來講都是一個很便民的一個措施那這部分署長能不能再幫忙加快速度"},{"start":684.66,"end":710.963,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們跟農業部合作就是為了要能夠提供這個各個農業區域來做這些措施目前在屏東已經有67個氣象站那在明年的部分我們還會有全省還會有80個站所以這個部分我們會來繼續跟這個農業部討論因為屏東遼遠廣闊還是必須麻煩配置上面要考慮到地域的一個平衡性這部分再麻煩一下我們來努力好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":587,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時18分）謝謝主席，有請我們交通部陳部長，還有人事處陳處長。"],["主席：請陳部長還有人事處處長。"],["徐委員富癸：部長、處長早安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：我們臺灣隊這次拿下世界冠軍，舉國歡騰，本席印象很深，我們前幾天也是在討論，說要給我們出國的球員最好的禮遇，包括協助機位的問題，而我們職棒代表隊的好手也不負國人的期待，拿到世界冠軍回來啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其昨天我們在臺北遊街，然後總統都來接見，真的是很振奮！不過遺憾的是，今天大家討論的都是桃機的問題，我想部長跟交通部的相關團隊，因為這個問題不是只有交通部，也涉及體育署跟教育部。部長，檢討一定是要檢討啦！"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["徐委員富癸：但是未來面對我們現在陸陸續續有很多的國際大賽，我們也有很多的希望可以拿冠軍回來，一旦回到我們的國門時，我們未來怎麼樣避免這樣的事情再發生，部長有沒有什麼想法？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，沒有錯，接機的動作跟工作其實是很多的部門，大家跨部門一起合作的，但是地點在桃機，桃機就應該負起責任。我們這次有看到某些亂象的產生，這些亂象的產生是因為有些公司沒有配合原本桃機跟大家律定的方式，所以造成一些混亂跟困擾。這個部分桃機公司也嚴格要求這些廠商，未來如果有我們國家的英雄要出國或回國的時候，千萬不要再有這樣的動作。這次為了讓大家有所警惕，我們也提出裁罰，針對這樣子的廠商，沒有依照原本律定跟規定的方式去做的廠商，我們會提出裁罰。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，你過去擔任過民意代表，也在我們的行政院服務過，過去只要正副總統在外面，不管是考察或是有行程，維安很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個維安是相當的嚴格。"],["徐委員富癸：竟然會發生這樣的問題，不可思議啊！"],["陳部長世凱：當然，桃機要檢討之外，我覺得桃機的檢討報告跟檢討的過程可能也要跟國安單位、國安特勤人員的單位一起來討論。未來我們的元首出國，接下來我們的總統可能要出國，元首或副元首出國跟回國，或者是接機的動作，應該怎麼樣在機場可以讓大家在最安全的狀況底下，不要去擔心元首或副元首的安全。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，昨天看到電視的鏡頭，采盟的董事長帶工作人員，如入無人之境，就鑽到副總統的旁邊。你昨天有震怒，也提到這不應該成為這個特定廠商的宣傳工具，我想這部分還是要請部長除了檢討之外，針對未來怎樣防範的作為……"],["陳部長世凱：未來的防範比較重要。"],["徐委員富癸：是，因為未來我相信我們很多的世界大賽都會拿到冠軍回來，我們會經常碰到這種場面，不能再這樣「落漆」下去了。"],["陳部長世凱：以後不能再發生了。"],["徐委員富癸：是。另外，我想除了這個大家關心的事情之外，最近媒體有針對交通部提了幾個霸凌的事情，包含我們的臺鐵公司、高雄港區土地開發公司，還有高雄監理所，這些媒體都有相關的報導。針對這樣的一個狀況，部長跟人事處長有沒有掌握相關的訊息？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們有掌握整個交通部所屬的體系，大概到目前為止統計起來有18件，在我們部本部有1件、觀光署有3件、公路局有4件、民用航空局有2件、港務公司有5件、郵政公司有2件，然後臺鐵公司有1件。每一個案件我們接到之後都是照相關的規定，在程序上認真在辦理，而且這個程序上一定不能夠延遲，我們有特別要求程序上不能夠延遲。"],["徐委員富癸：我很高興聽到部長這樣說，因為卓院長也有要求我們相關的部會要全面清查，部長也很主動、積極，很務實的在處理這樣的霸凌事件。我想這對公務人員是一個信賴的保障，也不要讓我們的公務同仁受到委屈，但是現在本席要再提醒交通部，因為現在交通部的反霸凌專區有透過人事處的一個專線來做申請，是這個機制嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯，是不是容我請人事處長說明一下？"],["徐委員富癸：好。"],["陳處長焜元：我想跟委員再做個說明，這個反霸凌專區是我們一直以來就有這樣的機制，包括霸凌，因為這樣的事情，事實上在部裡面，我們一直都有在監控，每年都有定期調查。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這個檢舉的同仁他們最擔心就是怕被洩密，我們在處理過程裡面怎麼樣保障檢舉人的生命安全，這點他們也很顧慮。另外一個就是後續我們怎麼樣做一個專業的心理輔導，這部分部長是不是有什麼想法？"],["陳部長世凱：過去的專業輔導我想應該都有在做，細節的部分有沒有需要請處長來回答一下。"],["陳處長焜元：跟委員報告，因為我們每個機關幾乎都有一個EAP，就是員工協助方案的機制。交通部這邊，不但是這個被霸凌者，甚至連霸凌的這一位長官或部屬，我們都會有一定的輔導機制。"],["徐委員富癸：我想交通部的組織很龐大，真的是要特別的小心，而且我們年輕的同仁好不容易考上公職，也希望在工作職場好好的表現，但是有可能受到過去我們長官一向上對下的關係處理，可能會造成同仁的心理受創，尤其我們現在這個議題非常非常的敏感，希望部長跟人事處這邊能夠……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們會接好每一個球，就是說每一位如果受到霸凌，或者受到委屈的交通部體系的所有員工，我們有一個很完善的體制可以讓大家來申訴，申訴完之後，我們也會接住每一個人，不會讓任何一個人被落掉，這我會努力。"],["徐委員富癸：勞動部這個血淋淋的教訓，真的是值得我們去檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝處長，處長請回。","接著我想針對屏東縣的交通問題，還是要請部長跟公路局長多幫忙。我們上次針對屏南快速道路，我們也辦理了考察。本席在我們的國會辦公室也積極的跟環境部相關的部會來做協調，希望這個施工能夠分段環評，目前不曉得有沒有最新的進度？"],["陳部長世凱：好，請局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，屏南快的可研，就是行政院核定了，所以現在正在辦綜合規劃，綜合規劃就是包括期初的部分，我們大概有一些結論，預計在明年的年中，大概6月份左右會有綜合規劃的期中報告，我們現在都會並行，也就是說不會一定要等綜合規劃結束後才啟動環評，我們大概綜合規劃在期中的部分，中間的中……"],["徐委員富癸：一個階段我們就趕快進入環評。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，我們就啟動環評。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分要特別拜託局長，我們一起來努力。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["徐委員富癸：這條真的是我們屏南的救命路，我們一定要加快來動工，加快來完工。另外，第二個就是針對高屏二快的部分，之前因為卡到環評，二次環評的問題，9月份已經通過了，目前有沒有機會在明年動工？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為9月份大概原則通過，然後大概就是11月這幾天，我們就把這個修正報告送到環境部，接下來明年度要做相關的設計，因為設計的部分我們會找優先的標案儘速來處理，包括明年或者是後年，我們看看能不能有一個優先標能夠來動工。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們為了要加速，設計跟用地取得合併一起來進行，我們一起並行，明年就會進行。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，用地取得部分我還是要提醒，這個要加快，因為有時候一些鄉親對於這個土地徵收的價格等各方面會有很多的意見，如果又經過複查、複估，這都會拖很久，所以應該加快來進行。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們來加快。"],["徐委員富癸：好，那最後一個，我想屏東縣這個交通建設的部分，我們還是持續要求交通平權，針對我們生活圈的道路和很多鄉鎮的聯外道路，還有一些橋梁的改建也迫不及待，一定要請交通部來幫忙，因為縣政府的財力，我們是列作第五級，這是非常辛苦的，我們的6年的生活圈道路，有幾個案子被公路局審查，有一些意見，包含屏25線長治生活圈工業區的聯外道路、墾丁大街的改善、屏113線的改善工程，還有最重要就是我們未來希望針對屏199線、屏199甲線、屏200線跟屏200線甲線，這4個路段未來改編成一個省道。部長有去過恆春半島嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有。"],["徐委員富癸：我們整個串聯之後發現路型必須優化，要提升行駛的效能，最重要是要增加觀光的吸引力跟交通的安全性，這部分如果可以做有效的整合，然後讓公路局跟縣政府能夠來合作，我想對整個恆春半島公路的維護，還有整個觀光的發展有很大的誘因，這個部長願不願意支持？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們都會支持，我們會跟縣政府大家來溝通，因為他那個計畫要寫的比較完善一點，到時候在我們的委員會裡面審查也會比較容易通過，所以我們會協助縣政府，怎麼把計畫寫得更完善。"],["徐委員富癸：好，最後一個就是要拜託氣象署程署長，我們去年跟農業部有做一個農業氣象的資訊服務，希望3年要投入2.15億，建置一百多個農業氣象站，以屏東來講非常非常需要，因為我們最近這4個颱風，真的對我們造成很大的農業損害，如果能夠做一個精準的災害性天氣參數的依據，我想我們就可以協助農損免現勘。這對農業部也好，我們的公所、縣政府還有我們的農民來講都是一個便民的措施，這部分署長能不能再幫忙加快速度？"],["程署長家平：跟委員報告，這個部分我們跟農業部合作，就是為了能夠提供各個農業區域來做這些措施，目前在屏東已經有67個氣象站，明年我們全省還會有80個站，所以這個部分我們會繼續跟農業部討論。"],["徐委員富癸：署長，因為屏東幅員廣闊，還是必須麻煩配置上面要考慮到地域的平衡性，這部分再麻煩一下。"],["程署長家平：是，我們來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。接下來邀請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157518","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157518","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a6dfed813c6013d6e44e208bd6b14da828660580be5266821a950302871400d155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:09:12 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電視通路也好社群通路也好甚至我們在各個地方也都有辦活動希望能夠讓老人家能夠聽到一些比較安全的這些交通的概念那這個部分我們會持續來努力"},{"start":528.72,"end":546.707,"text":"那本期還是建議預計增加的這個部分如何能夠讓老人能夠清楚知道以及受到這個宣導那相關的規劃其實也要讓交通委員會的委員能夠充分知道那最後因為宣傳費的增加還都是非常的敏感"},{"start":547.427,"end":560.246,"text":"那所以是希望錢花在道果上那這個部分我們所增加的預算全部都是拿來讓交通安全的觀念的宣導的部分更加強好那就希望能夠有效降低是好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（11時9分）有請部長，謝謝召委。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。延續了剛才先翔委員所提到的，意識型態不要去衝擊許多原本的價值，剛才他有提到，如果王義川他又再要求部長一定要把中華航空改名的話，那你可以堅守中華航空不會因此而改名吧？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前都沒有這樣的討論。"],["游委員顥：那如果他找你談的話？"],["陳部長世凱：所以這個大概是一個猜測或者是……"],["游委員顥：好，假如這樣子，那你也為中華航空講講話，可以捍衛著中華航空吧？"],["陳部長世凱：我是覺得中華航空這個名字也蠻久了，大家也用得蠻習慣的，而改名勢必要經過很長的討論，跟大規模的討論。"],["游委員顥：所以你也是支持中華航空嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得目前沒有聽到需要改名字的這個說法。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，大致上我就直接跟部長確認，原則上中華航空歷史悠久，你也是覺得中華航空繼續存在是正確的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得現在國人沒有希望它改名的聲音，現在沒有談到。"],["游委員顥：好，如果說王義川跟你提的時候，你就要嚴正的拒絕他。同樣的我想請教一下我們前部長──王國材部長，如果他到時候找到你，說中華郵政也要改名的時候，部長，你可不可以堅守我們中華郵政的價值？"],["在場人員：有改過了。"],["游委員顥：我知道。"],["王董事長國材：我覺得中華郵政大家用得非常習慣，我還是希望用中華郵政的名稱。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝，掌聲一下，掌聲謝謝我們王國材董事長。部長，今天許多都是在講我們的英雄回臺接機的問題，進來的過程是非常的艱辛啊！我想是不是給您簡短20秒、30秒回應一下，總結那麼多委員的質詢跟關心，預計改善、裁罰的重點，簡單30秒把幾個重點列一下好了。"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，關於檢討的部分，其實在管制區外面是跟體育署配合，管制區外面看起來的狀況是還好，包含拍照的地方也是職棒聯盟有建議，這個部分沒有問題。管制區內，其實這次該律定都有律定，但有廠商沒有配合當時的律定，這就是應該要檢討的部分，第一，為什麼它沒有配合當時的律定？第二，該裁罰要裁罰，所以目前我們希望桃機公司提出裁罰，而我剛剛聽桃機公司在講，目前應該是以最高金額100萬提出裁罰。"],["游委員顥：好，OK，我直接接著預算的部分來討論，桃機請回。接著我會問到電動車的部分，2050淨零排碳的趨勢，所以我們2030預計要達到全面的電動大客車，還有全面電動化的目標。過去公路局的資訊，2030預計1萬1,700臺的市區公車，截至2023年已經累積推動了1,883輛的電動車領牌，這個數據是公路局那時候提供的。但是我們看到它的目標要達到非常的辛苦，因為時間有限，我們再看後面的資料，在（2024年）113年8月，現有公車及市區汽車、客運與電動大客車占比表的部分，總車輛是1萬4,683臺，其中電動大客車到2024年8月底是1,846臺。姑且先不論它的進度離達到2030年的目標非常的有距離，想問一下兩個數據同樣都是官方數據，為何在2023年是1,883輛，到2024年的8月反而降為1,846輛？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個我是不是請司長跟委員回答。"],["游委員顥：好，司長。"],["林司長福山：委員剛剛畫面上大概有兩個課題，第一個部分就是說電動大客車1,846輛數據有一些變動，委員如果記得的話，像臺中市公車四方客運有推出，然後有一些比較早期的車輛有進出，所以有新車進來，有舊車出去……"],["游委員顥：這個我清楚。"],["林司長福山：對，對，對。"],["游委員顥：所以凸顯了……這一年的部分還是維持在1,800左右。"],["林司長福山：對，但是公路局今年核定增加兩千多輛，目前各地方政府都陸陸續續續在核給客運業者，而客運業者也開始訂車。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，但是數據上凸顯南投縣目前是零啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["游委員顥：在520質詢的時候，司長跟局長知道……要請交通部不僅是協助我的選區南投，還包括2030年的目標，我相信這個其實要加把勁啦！我還是要再次肯定，其實像交通部或公路局對於南投也幫忙很多的事情，像是幸福巴士，所以本席在這裡提出這個部分，希望未來後面的5年、6年能夠緊鑼密鼓，能夠加把勁。","最後再補充一下，之前交通部所開的會議也有提到，除了車體的補助，在國內國產的電芯電池這個部分，確實跟國外來比還是需要去做協助啊！如何能夠讓整體的電動巴士，或是在臺灣電動車的產業能夠來提升，在那一次的會議之後有提到國產的電芯電池的補助，藉此來提高相關電動巴士業者有意願並且能夠達到2030年淨零排碳的目標，我在這裡也提出，希望你們能夠納入討論。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分沒有問題，它只要是用國內的電芯，我們的補助也會再加碼，所以我們……"],["游委員顥：預計加碼多少？"],["陳部長世凱：100還是150萬？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，目前是增加100萬的補助。"],["游委員顥：應該要評估一下，如果現在進步那麼緩慢的話，是不是需要再加倍？"],["林司長福山：電池國產化有關電芯的部分，目前大概國內有兩大廠在做努力，可能量產的部分是在明年。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，最主要我覺得在國內產業的扶植上，也不一定限於哪幾家廠，反而是要讓國內的產業在產業鏈上是能夠蓬勃發展……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["游委員顥：所以我的重點不在於是哪家廠，甚至我希望是更多的廠能夠進入這個市場，來扶植我們國內電芯的競爭力，才能夠帶動電動車，好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：最後再補充，延續著黃建賓委員剛才所提的，在預算書跟資料上面得知，以目前車禍死亡或是交通事故死亡的下降幅度目標來說，目前是這7個月是5.7%，跟目前目標的10%還是有一個差距。但是在預算書上面所呈現的宣傳費是增加了112.7%，增列的宣傳預算要怎麼宣傳？要怎麼改善？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們主要會放在比較高齡者的宣傳，因為我們現在數據上看到高齡者的事故跟死亡的數字其實還蠻高的，而且逐年在增高，這個部分我們相當擔心，我們希望在整個交通觀念宣導的部分可以再做加強。包含電視通路也好，社群通路也好，甚至我們在各個地方也都有辦活動，希望讓老人家能夠聽到一些比較安全的這些交通的概念，這個部分我們會持續來努力。"],["游委員顥：本席還是建議預計增加的這個部分，如何能夠讓老人清楚知道以及受到宣導，相關的規劃其實要讓交通委員會的委員能夠充分知道。最後，因為宣傳費的增加，大家都是非常的敏感，所以是希望錢花在刀口上。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們所增加的預算，全部都是拿來讓交通安全觀念宣導的部分更加強。"],["游委員顥：好，希望能夠有效降低。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員。","接下來邀請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157517","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157517","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177abf15edb06494119e9efc61e85f95edfb8660580be5266821e3cda55e1e93cba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:26:01 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賴委員惠員：剩下158億嘛，這個數字是對的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，如果我們從（去）2023年總結算的收支賸餘是1,530億，那麼我們粗略的估計，今年總結算的收支賸餘大概會是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：114年度，目前我們經常收支是二千多億，如果有把追加預算放進去，經常收支的賸餘是……"],["賴委員惠員：總結算的收支賸餘大概會是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：113年度嗎？"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["陳主計長淑姿：113年度目前還沒有結束啦，但是目前粗估要看一下財政部這邊歲入超收的情況。"],["賴委員惠員：大概是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果超收的情況是3,000億以上，大概就是有一些會變成賸餘，是這樣的。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主計長。","另外，有關追加台電預算的經費，我想請教一下次長。次長，我們現在都在看我們臺灣英雄。要跟次長特別探討，我們知道前兩年受到烏俄戰爭跟疫情的影響，台電在2022年跟2023年的發電成本大幅增加，這3年來吸收成本超過6,400億，其中穩定物價及照顧民生和照顧弱勢民眾的部分，其實台電就吸收了2,800億。2023年我們曾用疫後特別預算補貼台電500億，可是這個看起來也是杯水車薪，如果我們再加上電價費率審議委員會裡頭持續凍漲民生電價的話，在今年5月行政院提出了1,000億的追加預算案，我們希望台電繼續維持營運，實際上就是補貼這3年來民生用電的電價凍漲的經費。次長，你認為這樣子的說法跟你事實上碰到的情況是不是一樣？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，這幾年2022、2023跟預計2024年，我們的估算就光是對住宅還有小型店家的吸收，就是22年吸收1,001億，23年也是1,000億，24年預估是800億，但最近會稍微下降一點點，那就超過2,500億以上，光是民生的部分，我們原來預估就2,800億。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊，這是不是台電經營的一個考驗？事實上就是全球地緣政治的風險其實沒有降低。"],["曾董事長文生：沒錯，我記得燃料價格事實上並沒有回到疫情前幾年的平均，剛才委員展示這幾個數字其實清楚看到，就是天然氣的價格事實上在2020年、2021年，我們把2019年拿進來平均，大概就是九塊多，可是過去幾年都超過15塊，甚至有到20塊，到目前為止大概是十四塊多，所以事實上對台電來講，燃料價格並沒有回到原來的水準，依然大概增加了六到七成左右。"],["賴委員惠員：請教中油的天然價格到目前為止，就是2023年的牌價大概是多少錢？"],["曾董事長文生：2023是最高的一年喔，一開始年初的時候到20塊，非常高。"],["賴委員惠員：現在呢？"],["曾董事長文生：現在14塊，14.3左右。"],["賴委員惠員：請教董事長，國際原油跟燃煤的價格看起來顯然還是高，沒有2022那麼高，可是在現有的狀況裡頭還是維持一個很高的狀況。"],["曾董事長文生：沒錯，跟委員報告，其實疫情的時候很多國家都發行了很多貨幣，然後又遇到俄烏戰爭，通膨的狀況非常非常的強烈，臺灣是因為我們控制了國內的消費物價其實控制得還不錯，可是能源的價格在國際上的平均價格，其實漲到一個程度，一直都沒有回到原來的水準。"],["賴委員惠員：董事長，所以我們如何看待台電的經營難題？除了一定要提供百姓的用電安全跟穩定以外，最優先對於所有民生工業商業的電價應該調整嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我應該這樣講，這個部分其實讓電價審議委員會去考慮，因為民生的電價對CPI的影響相對來講比較大，就是對消費者物價指數影響比較大，其實台電對這個部分要看電價審議委員會的綜合考量。事實上，民生的電價確實長期以來都跟成本有一定的差距。"],["賴委員惠員：是，台電公司的基本利潤其實很難去換算，我想這個1,000億補撥對你們來講非常非常重要，當然在這裡本席也是支持1,000億的提撥，況且這個外部效應其實是千金難買，絕對值得中央補助這個1,000億，因為這個只是總歲出2.9兆裡頭的3%，本席支持1,000億的補撥。當然我們也希望台電一定要先了解自己的收支結構，結構上的調整事實上對你們的公司非常非常的重要。"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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可以謝謝簡單回答就好"},{"start":129.075,"end":147.094,"text":"公委員報告目前在這個課程裡面都有相關的這個在人權教育的部分裡面都有特別有針對這個原住民族的這個意識的養成那不只是對於原住民族的這個部分包含其他的所有的公務人員都有這樣的課程"},{"start":148.115,"end":148.435,"text":"獲得合格證書"},{"start":178.575,"end":201.321,"text":"在這個狀況下我想請教一下秘書長原名特考是不是國家考試?是跟高普考有程度的差別嗎?因為適用對象不同高普考不會限於特定族群來參加考試那我請你來看一下我請你來主張一下內政部我們問他說"},{"start":203.208,"end":228.57,"text":"我們請他解釋他的警察人員有沒有包含特考他的回函113年4月19號他的回函是這樣他說就文藝解釋他說所稱特種考試警察人員應不包含公務人員特種考試的原住民族特考下稱原民特考"},{"start":229.79,"end":234.191,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":254.446,"end":272.786,"text":"在這樣的一個狀況之下我們原鄉已經很難看到原住民警察這個現象在我們的教師界醫護界都是一樣的所以這幾年我們都在想怎麼為偏鄉原鄉留住人才這個很重要"},{"start":273.687,"end":301.073,"text":"警察我們也希望能夠針對他們現在很好他們有把警專的錄取額外的比例提高現在提高到3.5我也很高興但是我說這些人他的分方他是不一定會回到原鄉即便他回到原鄉這些警察他不見得有文化敏感度他也不見得有語言能力所以我覺得我們必須要透過一種考試"},{"start":302.173,"end":304.956,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":316.277,"end":341.822,"text":"因為他說他們不接受原名特考但是我現在就想問啊我們來看他們的警察人員的人事條例施行細則他上面寫著他的公務人員所稱的這些警察人員高考、普考、初等考試或特種考試他寫特種考試欸可是請他解釋的時候他說應不包含原住民特考欸"},{"start":342.722,"end":361.935,"text":"所以考選部告訴我說可以啊因為我們有所謂的法警啊司法警察他在司法特考也可以考他在一般高普考他也有開甚至在原民特考也有開法警我們考完了之後我們請他們來使用那我就想問啊那"},{"start":364.076,"end":393.539,"text":"第一個問題如果內政部願意修正他的施行細則去把這個解釋解釋清楚請教秘書長請教部長也可以可以嗎跟我們報告考選部這邊跟內政部的觀點不同我們認為完全不用修施行細則因為我們現有已經在原名特考裡面有法警跟監所人員依法警管理條例法警通過要通過法警考試那司法司法院那邊是認定"},{"start":394.179,"end":397.801,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":417.978,"end":437.517,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":439.236,"end":440.277,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1230,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時26分）謝謝主席，有請考試院劉秘書長，以及考選部劉部長。"],["主席：劉秘書長、劉部長請。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：秘書長早，部長早。考試院負責高普考的考選部，它的考科其中有一個類科叫做原住民族行政，它的考試科目有加考臺灣原住民族歷史與文化、原住民族行政與法規。那麼它的分發，我們可以看到原住民族行政類科它分發的單位僅限於原民會以及各縣市的原住民族行政機關，但是如果我們來看一下它的比例，以112年來看，全國公務員人數，原住民公務員占的比例是1.9%，也就是說，大部分的原住民會被服務到的大概都是非原住民的公務員。","好，我現在問題來了，我們的原轉會目前已經先結束了，原轉會的結束不是代表轉型正義的工作不要做，而是總統說要落實到各部會，要推動族群主流化，現在我們也相當重視所謂的文化敏感度，因為臺灣是一個多元族群的國家，在這裡我就想要問，訓練就變得非常重要，在考試院下有國家文官學院，我想知道這樣一個考進來的公務員，要從哪裡評估或培訓他們的文化敏感度？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我是不是請保訓會蔡主委？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，可以。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：簡單回答就好。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前在課程裡面都有相關的……在人權教育的部分都有特別針對原住民族的意識養成，不只是對於原住民族這個部分，包含其他所有的公務人員統統有這樣的課程。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：比例呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：您說課程比例嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：這個請容我會後跟您報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我關心這個問題？因為我們來看一下，原住民的特考除了一般的行政類科，它還要加考原住民的行政，考試強度是更高的，負擔是更大的，從110年起它還要加考，要取得原住民族語認證合格證書，在這個狀況下，我想請教秘書長，原民特考是不是國家考試？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：跟高普考有程度的差別嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為適用對象不同，高普考不會限於特定族群來參加考試。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我請你來看一下，我請你來主張一下，因為我們問內政部，請它解釋警察人員有沒有包含特考，它在113年4月19日的回函是這樣，它說「就文義解釋」，「所稱『特種考試之警察人員考試』應不包含『公務人員特種考試原住民族考試』（下稱原民特考）」，它說不包含哦！","好，為什麼我關心這個問題？我這幾年一直跟內政部警政署講，警察人力總數一年比一年提高，但是這十幾年來，原住民警察是驟降的，非常嚴重，因為早期大量招考的大概都退休了，在這樣的狀況之下，我們原鄉已經很難看到原住民警察，這個現象在教師界、醫護界都是一樣的，所以這幾年我們都在想怎麼為偏鄉、原鄉留住人才，這個很重要。我們也希望能夠針對警察，他們現在很好，有把警專的錄取額外的比例提高，現在提高到3.5%，我也很高興，但是這些人的分發不一定會回到原鄉，即便他回到原鄉，這些警察不見得有文化敏感度，他也不見得有語言能力，所以我覺得我們必須要透過一種考試去為偏鄉的警察留才。","好，內政部也很同意，但是它的見解是說要在警察特考，不能在原民特考，因為他們不接受原民特考，但是我現在就想問啊！我們來看他們的警察人員人事條例施行細則，上面寫著它的公務人員，所稱的這些警察人員，高考、普考、初等考試或特種考試，它寫「特種考試」欸！可是請內政部解釋的時候，它說應不包含原住民特考欸！可是考選部告訴我說可以啊！因為我們有所謂的法警啊！司法警察在司法特考也可以考，在一般高普考也有開，甚至在原民特考也有開法警，我們考完了之後請他們來使用。那我就想問，第一個問題，如果內政部願意修正它的施行細則，去把這個解釋解釋清楚，請教秘書長，請教部長也可以，可以嗎？"],["劉部長孟奇：考選部這邊與內政部的觀點不同，我們認為完全不用修施行細則，因為我們現有的，已經在原民特考裡面有法警和監所人員。依法警管理條例，法警要通過法警考試，司法院那邊是認定原住民特考下面設的法警類科就屬於法警考試，我們不認為在這一個……一樣來看的話，至少就我們對法的見解，與內政部是不同的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我的見解也和各位一樣，所以在這邊本席就做一個要求，我希望考試院來負責協調，我希望秘書長、考試院來負責協調，請考選部部長您也一起幫忙，是不是可以在2週內辦理這樣的協調？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是不是可以有多一點時間？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那1個月內可以嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：最主要……我來跟內政部這邊溝通這件事情。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：必須要溝通嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，好，我們先展開協調。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我希望你們開協調會的時候也能夠通知我。"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，我先跟他們展開溝通。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：讓我知道你們有這個會議。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，瞭解。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝秘書長，謝謝部長，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝伍委員。","主席這邊也詢問一下，我也很好奇，「特中之特」，那麼按照部長的說法是，你們的原住民特考只要增開考科，有考出行政警察，那警政署就可以任用，是這個意思嗎？"],["劉部長孟奇：不，還是必須在警政署那邊，所以我們現在跟它有歧異。"],["主席：對啊！"],["劉部長孟奇：我要說明這兩種會有所不同，一個是如果我們在現在的警察特考下面去開原住民事務的話，那是……"],["主席：不是，反過來是在你們的原住民特考當中去開警察考科。"],["劉部長孟奇：對，因為我們現在本來就有例子啊！法警和監所人員。"],["主席：那兩個不夠，因為那兩個非常少。"],["劉部長孟奇：對，但是問題它管理不同，所以現在是內政部覺得這個不行，可是我們覺得司法院的法警就是OK啊！"],["主席：對。"],["劉部長孟奇：同樣的，也是同樣的法體系，老實說我們對過，我們也看不出語句有任何差別。"],["主席：好，那就請你們1個月內，劉秘書長、劉部長及劉部長，3位好好討論一下，我也很好奇，謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請吳召委宗憲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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我還要請問喔 就是你也 所以昨天那篇報導裡面都不是你講的 是不是昨天那個 就是現在工商時報那篇報導裡面都不是你講的我沒有看到那個報導都不是你講的如果他講是我講的 可能就是這個月是我講的"},{"start":260.433,"end":260.453,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":278.476,"end":304.313,"text":"根據這個如果不缺綠電的情況下我們知道現在目前綠電都被就是高科技產業大企業都包走了是不是那在這個情況下中小企業呢沒有問題我們現在有一個新的綠電平台完全來照顧中小企業中小企業對於中小企業有沒有就是給予更好的照顧"},{"start":305.603,"end":322.579,"text":"除了綠電平台以外當然當然我們希望如此是不是希望如此能夠讓他們買到充足的綠電是不是我們讓他買到充足的綠電以外讓他買得到這個是一個關鍵第二個買到他想要的量也是一個關鍵對還有價格對還有他的價格具有競爭力"},{"start":326.857,"end":346.212,"text":"那是不是也可以爭取讓碳費來補助中小企業因為你現在要求中小企業他們要做ASCO是用自己的那個電嘛可是未來如果他們節能提供更高的誘因讓他們能夠去換節能的商品啊 對不對"},{"start":347.052,"end":347.413,"text":"川普說對中國"},{"start":364.565,"end":367.587,"text":"所以他未來會統一10%?他對美墨對墨西哥還有對加拿大他是增加25%"},{"start":392.705,"end":395.026,"text":"所以這是不是,所以我才請教你,是不是放風一下"},{"start":414.591,"end":417.074,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":430.089,"end":452.837,"text":"下60%的這個決定比較容易但是做起來有困難所以有可能就是10%是全面性的不同的產品不同的產品會有不同的類別那對於臺灣在大陸就是說臺商在大陸的企業會有什麼樣影響?你們有評估嗎?我們有評估那影響大嗎?有各種不同的scenario"},{"start":453.376,"end":481.788,"text":"那影響大嗎?他的各家稅,什麼部份影響最大?可能對中國他的加稅的品項,什麼東西對台灣的支援?應該是車啦,太陽能啦,還有這個LED啦,他自己有優勢產業的他或者是他大力在補助的這些產業當然就是會有一些影響,因為我想美國就是怕他用不公平的競爭嘛"},{"start":483.36,"end":493.252,"text":"所以會建構那個防禦的堡壘已經建構在他美國可能需求不高或者需求很高的這種特殊的產業"},{"start":494.38,"end":523.466,"text":"那對於墨西哥加拿大呢?那裡也有台商?墨西哥他就是在懲罰中國的廠商啊對 那裡也有台商啊會不會影響到?我們台商我跟委員報告我所了解的說我們的台商應該是在德州附近或者新墨西哥州的那個部分所以他有重疊的隔了一條街過去就是美國所以基本上我所了解的是這樣所以台商很厲害台商他一定會調整的"},{"start":525.131,"end":552.736,"text":"現在25%的照顧 照顧並非美國的我覺得我們還是要就是說優先要照顧我們的僑商我們一定有各種不同的 scenario 在裡面當然有可能就是說你注意到的是在德州或者是新墨西哥州當然在墨西哥還是有我們的台商還是我們的僑商所以對於他們的協助應該要增加然後也不要讓他們受到這一波關稅的影響好不好"},{"start":553.517,"end":553.72,"text":"謝謝委員吹詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":785,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時20分）謝謝主席，我想要請部長跟台電的總經理。"],["主席：請郭部長、王總經理。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，我看到你昨天在工商協進會的早餐會裡面說到，2033年我們要增加1,786萬千瓦的電，所以不會缺電、也不會缺綠電，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我好像沒有機會講這一段話。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你沒有講呀？這不是你講的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：應該不是我講的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是喔，你沒有講這個話，所以會缺電？"],["郭部長智輝：不是！那個訊息可能是他們問的，然後我們統一回答的，不是問我的、沒有問我。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是問你，是不是？所以會缺電，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：哪一個？2033年？"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["郭部長智輝：如果什麼都不改變的話，以那個市場需求，用現在的供電量當然就是會缺呀。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會缺電，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：如果我們不增加電廠的話就會缺電。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們現在呢？目前天然氣……"],["郭部長智輝：我講過了，到2030年完全都不缺電、完全不缺電，包括綠電都不缺。"],["謝委員衣鳯：都不缺，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那什麼情況下會缺電？你說不改變的情況下。"],["郭部長智輝：不讓我增加電廠……"],["謝委員衣鳯：哪一個電廠不增加？"],["郭部長智輝：各個電廠。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有哪一個電廠？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在這六年內，最重要、最重要的是北部的協和電廠。"],["謝委員衣鳯：協和電廠，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果協和電廠沒有辦法的話就會缺電？"],["郭部長智輝：就會缺電，但我還是要去解決這個問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是你們在昨天那個會裡面提到的就是新核能的部分，新核能跟核能有什麼差別？"],["郭部長智輝：新核能可能是在談核融合的部分，核融合發電模式不會產生核廢料，舊的會產生核廢料，我們如果要用舊的，就是這個核廢料可以完全處理；第二個，安全無慮；第三個，全民共識。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不管是如何，即便是核廢料，現在也是儲存了，等未來有一天，就是世界的技術有辦法改變的時候，我們就會處理那些核廢料嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以不管是核能或新核能都是安全無虞、可以使用的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們所謂的新的核能就是剛才講的那三個基本原則，三個基本原則大家都能夠接受了，那麼我想不管是原有的核能設施或者新的核能設施都會去參考來使用。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那會不會考慮在其他地方？你之前都有說過要買光電、要買什麼，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會在其他地方買核電？"],["郭部長智輝：關於其他地方買核電這個部分，它的成本只要符合我們的要求，然後在輸送電上面也沒有問題，這個是我們考慮滿足國內電力需求的一個方法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：也是有可能的吧，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：方法上面是可以來檢討的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。我還要請問，所以昨天那一篇報導裡面都不是你講的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是工商時報那篇報導裡面都不是你講的？"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有看到那個報導。"],["謝委員衣鳯：都不是你講的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：如果他講是我講的，可能就是……我講的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是你講的？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報紙應該不會亂寫吧！我們相信臺灣的媒體應該都是公允公正的，不會空穴來風，只是有時候可能會稍微再加一點他們的看法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：根據這個假設不缺綠電的情況下，我們知道目前綠電都被高科技產業、大企業包走了，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那在這個情況下，中小企業呢？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有問題，我們現在有一個新的綠電平台，完全來照顧中小企業。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於中小企業，除了綠電平台以外，有沒有給予更好的照顧？"],["郭部長智輝：當然，當然。我們希望如此。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是能夠讓他們買到充足的綠電？"],["郭部長智輝：第一個，我們讓他們買得到充足的綠電，這是一個關鍵。第二個，讓他們買到他們想要的量，這也是一個關鍵。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，還有價格。"],["郭部長智輝：對，還有價格具有競爭力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是不是也可以爭取讓碳費來補助中小企業？因為你現在要求中小企業他們要做ESCO是用自己的電，可是未來如果提供更高的誘因，就能讓他們能夠去換節能的商品，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員這麼好的意見，這個我們回去馬上檢討。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對不對？讓他們換低碳的設備，不然為什麼他們要改變設備呢？沒有充分的誘因的情況下，他們就不會。","再來，最後一個就是川普說對中國要提高10%的關稅，是不是？好像比選前降低了，這是不是風向？"],["郭部長智輝：也不是這樣子，我們在看，他應該是根據他的需求，他應該是根據分類，不一樣的產品給不同的稅。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以他未來會統一課10%的關稅？他對墨西哥和加拿大是增加25%，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：這個稅，我想對他來講都是一種措施，在調整他國內的競爭力，所以一旦形成有競爭力以後，他可能還是會開放，因為稅太高會影響通膨。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我才來請教你這是不是放風向。是不是放風向？現在是10%，未來呢？"],["郭部長智輝：應該不是放風向，因為有時候選舉講的話，實際在做的時候，大概會去調整，他一定要soft landing，這種事情，下60%的這個決定比較容易，但是做起來有困難。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以有可能就是10%是全面性的。"],["郭部長智輝：不同的產品。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不同的產品會用不同的類別？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那對於臺商在大陸的企業會有什麼樣的影響？你們有評估嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有評估。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那影響大嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有各種不同的scenario。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那影響大嗎？什麼部分影響最大？可能對中國加稅的品項，什麼東西對臺灣的產業影響最大？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是汽車、太陽能、LED等，這些中國自己有優勢產業的，或者是它大力在補助的這些產業，當然就是會有一些影響，我想因為美國就是怕它用不公平的競爭，所以會建構防禦的堡壘，一定是建構在美國可能需求不高或需求很高的特殊產業。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那對於墨西哥、加拿大呢？那裡也有臺商。"],["郭部長智輝：對墨西哥的部分，它就是在懲罰中國的廠商啊。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，那裡也有臺商，會不會……"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，我所了解的，就是我們的臺商應該是在德州附近或新墨西哥州，所以會有重疊的，隔了一條街，過去就是美國，所以基本上我所了解的是這樣，臺商很厲害，臺商一定會調整的，關稅若升到25%，他們會跑過去，過了界就是美國的啊。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我覺得我們還是要先照顧我們的臺商。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。我們一定會有各種不同的scenario在裡面。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，對，對。當然有可能就是說，你注意到的是在德州或者是新墨西哥州，在墨西哥還是有我們的臺商，還是有我們的僑胞，所以對於他們的協助應該要增加，然後也不要讓他們受到這一波關稅的影響，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員垂詢。"],["主席：請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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剛委員講到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛提的這79案，你們可以給我詳細的說明跟報告嗎？個資可以不要，你用A君、B君，或者是什麼張○○，我們要知道這一個部分，這個可以提供嗎？按照規定。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：去識別化以後，我們可以在保護當事人的資訊底下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我們要瞭解。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後請看一下投影片，公務人員依據官等可以分簡任、薦任及委任三種，請教秘書長，你認為一個正常合理的組織結構應該是哪一個？請儘快回答。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我昨天有看到委員對被提名人的質詢，我就直接講，為什麼中間這一層的薦任比例會比較高？是因為我們公部門現在的職務對於職能需求提高了，所以如果是基層委任，它真的是比較事務性質，可是我們越來越多人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在的政府單位和民間不一樣，我們都是經理跟領班人數比基層員工多。"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實民間也是看哪一種性質啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以下命令的人多，做事的人少。"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有，他不是下命令的，其實中間的薦任部分，他也是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他也是小主管吧！"],["劉秘書長建忻：可能當小主管，跟下面的承辦人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！小主管多，然後基層人員少，請問你們滿意這種現象嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：但是我跟委員報告，現在地方政府都希望我們不要一直去規定一定要有多少比例是委任的，因為他們要面對的事物越來越複雜，每個承辦人其實都很多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你說這個是每一個單位……"],["劉秘書長建忻：是基於用人需要。"],["徐委員欣瑩：每個單位需要的。"],["劉秘書長建忻：視用人需要，因為政府的事務越來越精緻。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是你們一廂情願，還是真的是這樣？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有，我跟委員報告，我們之前有降低委任比例，這個改變其實地方政府都非常地感謝，因為他們需要更高階的人力去面對民眾的期待及更多越複雜的服務事項，所以薦任這個部分比較多，在政府這種性質的組織裡面，其實並不是不正常。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我看主席也站起來了。最後就是我們看到冰山的一角，勞發署分署長他可以這樣子一路坐直升機升遷，所以我們覺得機關用人和升遷還是要有一定的合理制度，對於各種人事權，我們希望考試院能夠有完整的憲法制度的權力，這樣才是國家長治久安之道，好，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝劉秘書長，謝謝部長和主委。","接下來有請伍委員麗華發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝署長 那再請教一下部長 這個我還是覺得對中油比較這個 比較好像虧待啦 用增資的問題你看那個財務的問題 你看這個一樣 這個中油的財務狀況很嚴峻 負債比跟台電是一樣的"},{"start":390.509,"end":402.099,"text":"那他每年提政治計畫都沒有經過部裡面同意我是覺得這部分應該要給中郵一些這個計畫讓他們可以這個針對他們財務結構能夠調整 不然你怎麼看"},{"start":407.918,"end":410.399,"text":"我們這部分都有在實施、都有在進行。"},{"start":427.144,"end":453.801,"text":"呃 有 有 因為114年題嘛 已經快結束了所以我們現在就是想說再編115啦 但這種內部的程序115年的預算 對不對 那種內部程序先經董事會通過之後才能送到大部那邊去計劃是多少嘛 你們計劃是多少 我要幫你跟部長爭取啊就是四年3500億嘛 四年度分 我也可以跟總統建議啊"},{"start":454.201,"end":462.408,"text":"所以明年度如果重新再提的話我覺得不見得是完全照中油的要求是不是可以在財務上給中油一些支持重電輕油"},{"start":479.023,"end":480.785,"text":"川普上臺之後關稅對中國加10% 課徵關稅的理由是完全他個人意志"},{"start":503.134,"end":508.037,"text":"臺灣過去商業機密常常會,您在半導體也帶過,您是公司的領導人,你知道商業間諜在以前會把這些商業機密到中國那邊去,會不會因為這樣子成為一個理由或者破口讓中國"},{"start":529.537,"end":531.258,"text":"那你為什麼認為第二任不會呢?"},{"start":561.979,"end":562.979,"text":"這部長可能比較清楚"},{"start":585.204,"end":606.12,"text":"若果這種情況一再發生,我們的高科技被商業間諜轉到中國去,美國當然會感冒。現在我們都配合美國的安全管制,但是很多公司不守法,現在沒有那麼簡單可以出去,出國管制是我們目前"},{"start":607.13,"end":631.985,"text":"一直到他真正上任﹖中國情所不用其極喔﹖他威脅利誘在臺灣的高科技公司啊﹖報告委員我想美國他比較抗勝的是那個先進製程那我相信所有先進製程﹖那成熟製程就不管制啊﹖人都被控制了現在我們所有先進製程的人員都被美國控制那你針對先進製程 成熟製程不管制"},{"start":632.725,"end":636.029,"text":"先進製程 成熟製程其實沒有意義那個已經變成鴻海的市場好 謝謝 因為時間到"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時9分）謝謝主席，請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長早。油、電、糖、水的總經理都在，中鋼也在嘛，中鋼有來嗎？沒關係。油、電、糖、水目前的人事，除了台電的曾董事長是由次長去轉任之外，我覺得現在的總經理能力都非常好，專業也夠，服務熱忱也夠，領導統御也都不錯，特別是台電的王總經理、台水的李董事長跟李總經理都非常傑出跟優秀；台糖的陳立人總經理在地方的服務大家也都非常肯定，他的能力及各方面的操守我覺得都是非常禁得起考驗的。我是希望這樣，國營事業的人事儘量以內升為主，現在油、電、糖、水基本上都是內升，中油也是內升，董事長、總經理都是內升，都是在中油基層開始服務起的資深員工；台電王總經理也是從基層上來，台水總經理、董事長也是如此；台糖董事長還沒到嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：到了。"],["邱委員志偉：到了嗎？還沒到嘛！部長你訊息還沒掌握。"],["郭部長智輝：抱歉，已經核定了，已經核定了。"],["邱委員志偉：還沒到嘛，核定但還沒到，他不是台糖體系嘛，對不對？他是教授嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我希望，一方面，內部升遷對員工的士氣是有鼓舞作用、有激勵作用，而且內部的管理文化他最了解，專業度也夠，我希望這個原則應該要把持住，董總要有專業性，專業一定要是從內部內升會比較準確。","幾個問題請教，有關淘寶的問題，淘寶的業務核准是商業署嗎？是商業署嘛，蘇署長，淘寶有經營許可以做電商的平臺嗎？"],["蘇署長文玲：跟委員報告，電商的主管是在數位發展部，淘寶沒有在臺灣落地，所以它還是大陸的公司，它整個母公司其實沒有在臺灣落地。"],["邱委員志偉：它沒有在臺灣設立分公司嗎？"],["蘇署長文玲：它有一個分公司，我們核准它的業務是做電子資訊供應服務跟廣告，但是不是經營……"],["邱委員志偉：可是它有沒有從事產品上架？"],["蘇署長文玲：沒有，我們沒有核准它經營電商業務。"],["邱委員志偉：目前有沒有？它有沒有從事這些商業行為？"],["蘇署長文玲：經濟部這邊有啟動行政調查。"],["邱委員志偉：對，這個很多人檢舉啊，你沒有核准它可以做電商平臺，可是實際上它有從事這個商業行為，所以商業署應該去徹查。"],["蘇署長文玲：跟委員報告，這個部分有，因為它在臺灣這邊的分公司，我們核准的其實沒有包括電商，它實際上在經營電商可能還是在大陸那邊的公司。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊，這是在臺灣的分公司，事實上有沒有從事電商平臺的商業行為，這個你們回去了解一下。"],["蘇署長文玲：我們會啟動調查。"],["邱委員志偉：好。水利署賴署長，這個部長可能比較不了解，署長，再生水廠是我爭取的，原本在興達港那邊是臨時的海淡廠，從臺中移過來，現在會做一個永久性的海淡廠，大概一天可以處理10萬噸，目前的進度如何？"],["賴署長建信：目前我們在做先期的一些評估作業，預計差不多明年左右，我們希望可以完成速建，進入到環評的程序。"],["邱委員志偉：到建廠完成可以供水的期程大概是什麼時候？"],["賴署長建信：因為大概4到5年就可以完成，如果是環評通過的話……"],["邱委員志偉：預算規模呢？"],["賴署長建信：差不多是120億到150億……"],["邱委員志偉：120億？上次不是說50億，現在變120億。"],["賴署長建信：因為我們現在希望海淡廠的興建用最先進的製程，包括管路的問題……"],["邱委員志偉：地點沒變，地點還是在興達港那邊嗎？"],["賴署長建信：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，未來供水是供應給產業用水還是民生用水？"],["賴署長建信：基本上我們會在區域用水滿足之後，這些海淡廠的用水也許可以透過交換水的方式……"],["邱委員志偉：那可以飲用，我有喝過。"],["賴署長建信：那個水質很好，因為我們都符合國際標準。"],["邱委員志偉：所以它主要是產業用水還是民生用水？"],["賴署長建信：基本上我們會先提供周邊民眾的用水，其他的這些水源我們還可以提供產業的需求。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝署長。","再請教一下部長，我還是覺得對中油好像比較虧待，關於增資的問題，你看那個財務狀況一樣，中油的財務狀況很嚴峻，負債比跟台電是一樣的，他每年提增資計畫都沒有經過部裡面同意，我是覺得這個部分應該要給中油一些計畫，讓他們能夠調整財務結構，部長，你的看法呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們這一部分都有在實施、都有在進行。"],["邱委員志偉：但是沒有結果，每年報去經濟部都駁回、都不准！總經理，來，你們的想法怎麼樣？今年有沒有再提、明年有沒有再提？"],["張總經理敏：有，因為114年提嘛，已經快結束了。"],["邱委員志偉：明年提多少？"],["張總經理敏：所以我們現在想說再編115，這是走內部的程序。"],["邱委員志偉：100億呀？"],["張總經理敏：不是，115年的預算。"],["邱委員志偉：對，編多少？"],["張總經理敏：那是走內部程序，先經董事會通過之後才能送到大部那邊去。"],["邱委員志偉：計畫是多少嘛？你們計畫是多少？我要跟幫你跟部長爭取呀！"],["張總經理敏：就是四年3,500億，四年度分開編。"],["邱委員志偉：你們要重新提，我也可以跟總統建議，四年3,500億，你們提的計畫是這樣子？"],["郭部長智輝：不要報告金額，會嚇死人，你要講說調整幾個百分比。"],["張總經理敏：是！"],["郭部長智輝：你如果說……"],["邱委員志偉：明年度如果重新再提的話，我覺得不見得完全照中油的要求，但是不是可以在財務上給中油一些支持？否則就重電輕油，這個對……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，絕對沒有重電輕油這回事！"],["邱委員志偉：是啦，人家會有這樣的感受。"],["郭部長智輝：他們兩個、大家都一樣英俊，所以不可能說……"],["邱委員志偉：人家會有這樣的感受。","另外，川普上來之後，對中國加10%關稅，他課徵關稅的理由完全是依他個人意志！例如毒品太多、移民太多，他找任何理由就可以課。臺灣過去商業機密常常會……您在半導體業待過，您是公司的領導人，你知道商業間諜以前會把這些商業機密帶到中國那邊去，會不會因為這樣子成為一個理由或者破口讓川普對我國政府課稅？有沒有這個可能性？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能，因為我們現在……我請國貿署。"],["邱委員志偉：署長。"],["江署長文若：報告委員，過去在川普第一任的時候，曾經因為他認為中國竊取了美國相關的高科技技術，所以他有課徵相關的關稅，那是在他第一任的時候，他進行了301的調查……"],["邱委員志偉：那你為什麼認為第二任不會呢？"],["江署長文若：您是說對……"],["邱委員志偉：第一任有嘛，第二任為什麼你認為不會呢？"],["江署長文若：現在因為川普還沒上任，但是他過去在競選期間有很多的言論，所以他上任之後到底會對特定的國家採取多少的關稅？我覺得這個大家都還在密切觀察。"],["邱委員志偉：這方面部長可能比較清楚，如果這種情況一再發生，也就是說，我們的高科技被商業間諜轉到中國去，美國當然會感冒。"],["郭部長智輝：現在我們都配合美國的安全管制。"],["邱委員志偉：但是很多公司不守法啊。"],["郭部長智輝：不會！現在沒有那麼簡單可以出去，出口管制是我們目前，一直到他真正上任……"],["邱委員志偉：中國無所不用其極喔，他會威脅利誘、在臺灣的高科技公司會偷技術！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想美國比較擔心的是先進製程，那我相信所有先進製程……"],["邱委員志偉：成熟製程就不管制喔？"],["郭部長智輝：人都被控制了，現在我們所有先進製程的人員都被美國控制。"],["邱委員志偉：那你只針對先進製程，成熟製程不管制？"],["郭部長智輝：先進製程管制。"],["邱委員志偉：成熟製程有沒有管制？"],["郭部長智輝：成熟製程其實沒有意義，那個已經變成紅海的市場。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝，因為時間到。"],["主席：請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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感謝，不是如此！"],["施部長能傑：不是，我想不是這個意思。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要跟你討論的是一個尊榮，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，我想這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：它是一個制度問題，哪有每一年快到年底才殷殷期盼到底給不給，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：不是，這是預算的一個程序，我們會根據應該提出的，向行政院提出來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請問兩位，怎麼樣可以健全這個方案？因為你都來一個未知數啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，跟委員報告，今年度的預算在去年討論的時候，當然大家對於只撥補公教各50億這個部分有很多不同的意見，所以在編列明年預算的時候，我們和主計總處當然有協調，主計總處參考過去銓敘部這邊的各種方案，所以採取……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席已經告訴你，114年我看到你是撥補120億，120億的預算我們看到了……"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，120億，加教育人員74億，那它就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是本席要告訴你，就誠如你說的，各50億大家都有意見，對這些人來講不公平啊！本席要跟你討論的是制度面的問題啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：所以主計總處採用了我們20年撥補的精算數字，編列教74億，公120億，總共194億在明年的預算，未來應該也是要照這個節奏下去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：秘書長，你的回答就是提供比較優的方案，是不是？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，未來應該是照這個節奏，就是20年撥補方案來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：20年的撥補方案，本席把功課給你，請你也去討論，除了撥補之外，因為我們有通膨的問題，有財務收支的問題，你們應該要專案去討論，因為這些人這麼辛苦了一輩子，讓他怎麼樣有榮耀，而不是一個未定數，不是說本來100億，今年120億，好像是一個很大的恩德，不是！這些錢是他們自繳的，也是政府應該要給他們的照顧跟榮耀嘛！你再去討論那個精準方案。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好不好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請問，我們用實際的數字告訴你，全國公務人員總人數，部長請回。秘書長，我們看到103年底的人數是34.78萬，到112年底是36.55萬，雖然比同期增加了一點點；但是我們看到平均年齡，103年是43.37歲，到了112年是43.8歲，換句話說，增加0.43歲；我們又看到年齡層的級距，18到29歲的占比由9.75%增加至12.05%，換句話說，跟上年度來比較是增加2.3個百分點。但是30到54歲由75.51%減至68.83%，換句話說，減了6.68%。55歲以上是增加了，從14.72%增加到19.12%，換句話說，增加4.4%，所以在人力管理上面是有達到一個挑戰。","本席要請教，我們最近看到平均10年的退休年齡延後，這10年是延後的，而且很多是到齡才退休，在這樣的情況之下，你要怎麼樣去改善人力，確保公務人員的人力精良？因為你從年齡層的級距來看，它已經是不平衡了，所以這個功課給你，好好去討論怎麼樣能夠精準來建構友善公務人員的職場文化，請你簡要說明好嗎？"],["主席：請簡要回答，因為時間的關係。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：第一個部分，訓練的部分，在職訓練要一直加強，也就是說讓在職場的人，即使是因為年齡比較長一些，但是他還可以接觸到新知。第二個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，秘書長你現在回答，因為時間的關係，你有看到問題點，你把你的問題以及精進方案給本席，我們希望友善。"],["主席：好，請會後用書面提供。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我給你一個功課，基層公務人員因為考績制度、缺乏向上考核的評鑑制度、商調的制度等等，他在面臨到，像這一次霸凌事件這麼大，引起社會的公憤，在這樣的情況之下，不合理的職場待遇，求助無門！施部長及秘書長，你要怎麼樣去落實申訴以及諮商輔導的政策？本席認為不要再讓憾事發生，你們應該好好去整體性的檢討，你們多久時間可以給本席？就這樣的事件，你多久……"],["主席：好，會後提供一份書面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你多久時間給本席？你們精進的方案。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是不是給我們1個月的時間？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1個月的時間把精進方案提出來。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們不希望憾事再發生，讓他們投訴有門，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝劉秘書長。","接下來有請徐委員欣瑩發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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,"end":194.967,"text":"臺智銀是核庫﹚李楊﹚林楊是土銀的球員這部分你給我一份資料好了就是我們有關公股銀行現在有哪些球隊這兩年編了哪些預算來照顧我們的球員"},{"start":212.051,"end":233.765,"text":"求員退役後,是否還能夠回到銀行?這份資料,這兩年的資料,給我一個報告好不好?好,沒問題,謝謝,謝謝委員。那部長先請回好了。真的,我還是建議朝野協商的時候,真的要拜託陳潔憲過來一下,不然這一條預算我真的是很難過關。"},{"start":236.816,"end":258.052,"text":"請教一下董事長現在台電負債是多少?負債是2.5兆左右按照立法院預算中心是2.6兆到明年是2.6兆那我問一下每年要支付的利息有多少?300億"},{"start":261.275,"end":263.637,"text":"每年支付利息多少?每一度的發電成本裡面,你的利息支出大概是佔多少?"},{"start":283.12,"end":304.867,"text":"零點是蠻低的啦因為你處理2500億度嘛我看了一份資料我不知道對不對啦他說你們這個每一度的發電成本裡面大概50%就是你們自己發電的電力的成本那大概有15%是去購買外部電力的成本但是利息也佔了13%"},{"start":307.16,"end":318.602,"text":"律師沒有13%沒關係那你就是給我一份資料每一度的這個發電的成本每一度的發電成本應該是這樣子因為300億我有2500億度應該是大概1.2%左右多少應該因為我2500億度那大概一度電佔0.012元"},{"start":337.029,"end":347.111,"text":"所以佔的比例是多少?每度成本是佔多少?3.5%我這邊的資料到113年9月的時候每度成本是3.63利息支出是0.12佔的比例大概是3.4%左右"},{"start":358.894,"end":381.939,"text":"一年一二四每度電的成本對每度都是講每度電的成本那我就問你了每度的成本齁這個是3.63那我們現在這個每度的這個民生電價成本是多少3.73.7多3.7多那這個那現在下一度是多少勒現在是我們均價是2.7多2.7多"},{"start":383.598,"end":384.299,"text":"明年還要再編一千億?"},{"start":399.554,"end":415.568,"text":"其實最主要是我們過去今年在內其實2022跟2023臺電在民生這個部分吸收的成本就是各一千億就是我們有吸收嘛因為你每一度發電的成本跟每一度這個民生電價的成本就是差一塊錢嘛是"},{"start":416.949,"end":437.25,"text":"對阿,那為了就要穩定物價,然後讓這個民生覺得說這個我們的電價不會太貴,那所以呢我們是漲供應用電漲比較多,民生我們就是先緩著,我們就吸收每一度電就吸收一塊錢,那這也是為什麼其實前兩年更高今年一塊錢,前兩年平均成本還更高一點"},{"start":439.152,"end":462.167,"text":"為什麼今天要有這筆追加預算明年還要再編一千億的公務預算在這裡面那我再請教一下昨天院長他跟工商協定會有一個早餐會他提到說新核能是持開放態度董事長知道這句話的含義是什麼嗎?"},{"start":464.224,"end":465.204,"text":"我聚焦在合適好了啦合適這個我也問過這個院長"},{"start":494.051,"end":521.343,"text":"就是2025年非核家園這個是定在這個法律裡面的那這個核四現在公投也沒有通過重啟使用的公投也沒有通過那所以說現在核四這個核去核從因為也有很多在地的居民希望就是說他本來是核電廠的用地那是不是能夠變更他的這個地目使用還地於民那但是現在"},{"start":522.583,"end":535.697,"text":"我發現說台電的態度好像還不是很確定未來合適這塊地要怎麼去做使用那個跟委員報告就是說你現在看到這已經都是繼承已經有利用的這些電力設備"},{"start":536.886,"end":537.086,"text":"﹚李坤城﹚"},{"start":566.966,"end":590.884,"text":"河島區的要利用事實上是相對來講不是那麼容易,但是後段的發電設備做其他的利用是有機會的。但是不是拿來發電,他不是拿來發電,他要拿來做電壓穩定等等的一些相關工作。好,那所以未來沒有核四了,也不會用核能發電了,就是在這個貢寮這個核四廠上面不會用核能發電了,對不對?"},{"start":594.141,"end":603.828,"text":"現在的狀況就是我們現在法令上面也沒有這個空間所以我是說你們要提出一個計畫就是說這個核電廠的設備在那邊"},{"start":610.313,"end":628.286,"text":" 你要去做什麼樣的 有哪一些你可以去做使用 你說什麼穩定電壓或是做什麼樣的使用 那有一些已經沒有使用的 那你要去做拆除或是做其他怎麼樣 因為這個都還是列在你們的這個資產裡面 每年裡面有多邊境費 在做這個資產的維護"},{"start":630.954,"end":656.027,"text":"所以說你們應該要提出一個計劃沒有用的看要怎麼去拆除隨時設備看是怎麼去用部長是說什麼設備的使用效益要極大化這個是一個比較大的範圍跟一個說法其實你們應該要有比較更具體的計劃未來這個不做核能發電使用這塊地要怎麼去做處理"},{"start":657.759,"end":658.439,"text":"我們一直都在做這種新的轉型計畫的規劃,我們會持續來辦。"},{"start":686.07,"end":690.499,"text":"謝謝坤城委員主席在這裡宣告我們休息10分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我們請台電董事長還有財政部長。"],["主席：好，台電董事長還有財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好、董事長好。今天在談台電追加預算1,000億，基本上，上次我們也有詢問過院長，包含部長、主計長都在，其實都問過了，現在是交由財政跟經濟一起來做審查。不過我認為，我剛剛聽了很多在野黨委員的意見，大概他們對於這1,000億有很大的意見，我是認為董事長今天應該要找陳傑憲過來，你要拜託他過來，現在他是臺灣英雄，我們臺灣隊的隊長，過去他也在台電的棒球隊打過球，打過4年，所以你今天為了讓追加預算能夠順利通過，真的你應該要拜託一下臺灣隊長陳傑憲來這邊跟所有的委員，尤其是在野黨的委員請託一下，是不是能夠讓這1,000億的追加預算能夠通過啦！因為過去他在台電，你們也是很照顧他嘛，對不對？我剛剛也聽到，未來台電在關於棒球隊球員的照顧上面也會給予……就是打了職棒之後，未來如果要回到台電，還是有這個工作機會嘛，是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：是，我們現在正在朝這方向規劃，我們會把我們的規章改變以後報部裡面同意，我想這應該是一個……坦白講，還好這位臺灣隊長沒有繼續留在台電，有去打職棒，才有這個冠軍啦！我們也希望……"],["李委員坤城：他當初也是在猶豫啦！因為他認為職棒的變化也很大，可是參加職棒後，他也回不去台電了啦！"],["曾董事長文生：是，所以我們才希望能夠做這個調整，我們希望如果來台電打的優秀球員不要有後顧之憂，有機會為國爭光的時候，可以來為國爭光，不要擔心回不了台電，所以我們現在正在改變，在簽辦要做這個人事規則的調整。"],["李委員坤城：好。我問一下莊部長，我們公股銀行是不是也有很多的銀行……我知道的是有合庫、土銀、一銀，他們對於不管是羽球、桌球或是其他的運動也都有支持嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，也會對一些球隊們或運動員們給予一些贊助跟培育。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我記得我們很多奧運的選手，不管是林昀儒或是戴資穎，他們過去也是代表……我忘了是土銀還是合庫。"],["莊部長翠雲：合庫，戴資穎是合庫，像李洋、王齊麟，麟洋是土銀的球員。"],["李委員坤城：好，沒關係，這部分你給我一份資料好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的。"],["李委員坤城：就是有關公股銀行現在有哪些球隊？這兩年編了哪些預算來照顧我們的球員？然後球員退役之後，是否還能夠回到銀行？這兩年的資料給我一個報告，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：部長先請回好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：真的，我是建議朝野協商的時候，真的要拜託陳傑憲過來一下啦！不然這條預算真的是很難過關啦！","請教一下董事長，現在台電負債是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：負債？"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["曾董事長文生：負債是2.5兆左右。"],["李委員坤城：2.5兆？按照立法院預算中心的資料是2.6兆，到明年是到2.6兆。我問一下，每年要支付的利息有多少？"],["曾董事長文生：300億。"],["李委員坤城：300億？"],["曾董事長文生：因為2.5兆不全部是計息的舉債，計息舉債大概是1.57，所以我們的利率平均大概under2%以下。"],["李委員坤城：那我問你，你這每一度的發電成本裡面，利息支出大概是占多少？"],["曾董事長文生：零點……是滿低的啦！因為除以2,500億度嘛！"],["李委員坤城：我看了一份資料，我不知道對不對，他說你們每一度的發電成本裡面，就是你們自己發電的電力的成本，大概有15%是去購買外部電力的成本，但是利息也占了13%。"],["曾董事長文生：利息沒有13%。"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，你就是給我一份資料，每一度的發電成本。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，應該是這樣子，因為利息300億如果有2,500億度，應該大概是1.2%左右。"],["李委員坤城：多少？"],["曾董事長文生：因為是2,500億度，大概一度電0.12元……"],["李委員坤城：0.12？所以占的比例是多少？每度成本是占多少？"],["曾董事長文生：除以4，大概3%。"],["李委員坤城：3%？"],["曾董事長文生：3%。"],["李委員坤城：3.5%啦！我這邊的資料，到113年9月的時候，每度成本是3.63，利息支出是0.12，這個占的比例大概是3.4%左右。"],["曾董事長文生：0.12是每度電的成本。"],["李委員坤城：都是講每度電的成本？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我就問你了，每度的成本是3.63，你們現在每一度的民生電價成本是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：三點七多。"],["李委員坤城：三點七多，那現在1度是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：我們均價是二點七多。"],["李委員坤城：二點七多，所以其實只要是民生用電就是差1塊嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：1度電差1塊。"],["李委員坤城：等於你就是要吸收1塊錢就對了。"],["曾董事長文生：是，目前是這樣。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以為什麼今天要追加1,000億，明年還要再編1,000億？"],["曾董事長文生：其實最主要是我們過去，含今年在內，2022跟2023年台電在民生這一個部分吸收的成本就是各1,000億。"],["李委員坤城：就是你們有吸收嘛，因為你每一度電發電的成本，跟每一度民生電價的成本就是差1塊錢嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，為了要穩定物價，讓民眾覺得我們的電價不會太貴，所以你們是漲工業用電比較多，民生就是先緩著，你們就吸收，每一度電就吸收1塊錢，這也是為什麼……"],["曾董事長文生：對，其實前兩年更高，今年1塊錢，前兩年平均成本還更高一點。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，這就是為什麼今天要有這筆追加預算，明年還要再編列1,000億的公務預算在這裡面。"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下，昨天院長跟工商協進會有個早餐會，他提到對於新核能是持開放態度，董事長知道這句話的含義是什麼嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我想卓院長不是第一次提了，就是因為我們要走向淨零，所有的、可能的新技術，我們都會一直watch它的發展，但院長也一直都有提到幾個重要的前提，就是安全、解決核廢以及共識這三點，我想在這個原則之下，我們對於所有新的能源都應該保持持續開放，跟要去watch它進展的一個態度。"],["李委員坤城：好，我聚焦在核四好了啦，核四這個我也問過院長，就是2025年非核家園，這個是訂定在法律裡面的。核四現在重啟使用的公投也沒有通過，所以現在核四何去何從？因為也有很多在地的居民希望，它本來是核電廠的用地，是不是能夠變更它的地目使用，還地於民？但是現在我發現台電的態度好像還不是很確定，未來核四這塊地要怎麼去做使用？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，你現在看到這都已經是既成的，已經有利用的這些電力設備，因為一個核電廠裡面不會只有核子反應爐，核子反應爐以外的有很多都是電力設備，我們希望電力設備能夠有應用的機會。"],["李委員坤城：這些電力設備還能做其他的發電設備使用嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：有些可以做穩定電壓等等相關的工作，像發電機，它可以做這些相關的工作，沒有問題，以我們現在的……"],["李委員坤城：屬於核能發電設備的這部分呢？"],["曾董事長文生：核島區的部分要利用，事實上相對來講不是那麼容易，但是後段的發電設備做其他的利用是有機會的。"],["李委員坤城：對，我認為……"],["曾董事長文生：但不是拿來發電，它不是拿來發電，它要拿來做穩定電壓等等的一些相關工作。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以未來沒有核四了，也不會用核能發電了，就是在貢寮這個核四廠上面不會用核能發電了，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：現在的狀況是我們法令上面也沒這個空間。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們要提出一個計畫，就是說這個核電廠的設備在那邊，你要去做什麼樣的使用，有哪一些你可以去做使用？你說什麼穩定電壓或是做什麼樣的使用，有一些已經沒有使用的，你要去拆除或是做其他怎麼樣……因為這個都還是列在你們的資產裡面，每年都有編經費在做資產的維護，所以你們應該要提出一個計畫，沒有用的看要怎麼去拆除，這些設備看是怎麼去用。部長是說設備的使用效率要極大化，這個是一個比較大的範圍跟說法，其實你們應該要有更具體的計畫，未來核四不做核能發電使用，這塊地要怎麼去做處理？"],["曾董事長文生：好的，其實我們一直都在做這種新的轉型計畫的規劃，我們會持續來辦理。"],["李委員坤城：好啦，我是新北市的立委，我們自己都很關心，雖然那個不是我的選區，但是大家都很關心，如果沒有使用的話，其實你們就應該要還地於民，好不好？或是說你們要做其他設備使用，也可以，但是你要跟當地的居民溝通清楚，好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：好，了解，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝坤城委員。","主席在這裡宣告：我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時15分）","繼續開會（11時25分）"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：好，我們繼續開會。","現在請賴惠員召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","黃國昌","邱議瑩","王世堅","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案","agenda_id":"11310701_00001"}}},{"id":"157509","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157509","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a26983bcf705330f844e208bd6b14da828660580be52668212e6298c9cb56e18f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:00:10 - 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要改名,要繼續推動?"},{"start":400.647,"end":420.915,"text":"報告委員,到目前為止沒有做過這方面的討論。沒有做過討論,可是王一川獨然啊,很多人都說要講台灣不要講中華。沒有委員跟我提過這件事。所以就是可能大家喊一喊,但是實際上沒有來要求你來做改名這樣子?沒有沒有沒有。所以中華航空在短期內沒有改名的計畫?"},{"start":422.155,"end":449.086,"text":"現在都沒有做這樣的討論嗎?沒有做任何的討論嗎?所以不會有這樣的計畫?不會齁,因為其實我知道啦,其實臺灣航空這些名字好像也被人家註冊走了啦,其實好像是沒有機會改啦。好,所以說這就是航空團前面要改名的計畫啦。這個不會啦。好,那就OK,那就可能就是大家電視上面、政論節目各自表述這樣子。那我再請教一下喔,因為其實明年在年初的時候還會有一場"},{"start":450.166,"end":450.927,"text":"衛星球聖誕季冠軍大巨蛋"},{"start":467.179,"end":468.7,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":491.081,"end":507.016,"text":"主辦單位來做一個搭配就是讓這個高鐵票配上我們中華隊的一個國際賽的一個門票來做一個搭配有沒有機會來做一個討論因為高鐵公司是上市櫃公司有他公司治理的層面那交通部其實是股東之一"},{"start":507.697,"end":507.717,"text":"閱讀委員會議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":481,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時）謝謝主席，一樣麻煩邀請陳部長還有桃機公司。"],["主席：請陳部長還有桃機總經理，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：部長，其實我的觀念跟黃健豪委員比較相似，當然就是單純的批評采盟或怎樣，其實大家罵了很爽，但沒有針對制度流程去做後續的改善的話，下次可能還是會發生。我想請教一下，這次接機我們本來就知道了嘛！對不對？包括總統府也都有發出訊息，想確認一下管制內跟管制外簡單的分工到底是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是我請桃機公司？"],["范總經理孝倫：我想跟委員報告，因為管制基本上我們是從動線來分，所有的中華隊從登機門下來以後，逐步在登機長廊一路經過各個關卡到管制區外，在管制區內會經過我們規劃的拍照區、沿路的歡迎區，然後到證照查驗，再到行李大廳提取行李，經過海關之後，再到管制區外的記者受訪區，有完整的一個……"],["廖委員先翔：所以原則上路線大概是你們規劃，然後路線上面哪一個點可以幹嘛，桃機公司有提出這樣的規劃嘛！"],["范總經理孝倫：是，我們會跟相關單位討論。"],["廖委員先翔：我確認一下，在接機之前有哪一些單位有正式的函桃機公司或者致電桃機公司？我知道體育署一定會有，或是總統府應該也會有正式的發函或者是來電告知他們要來接機，需要你們配合，有哪些單位有正式的發函或告知？"],["范總經理孝倫：正式發函是有體育署，它是轉職棒聯盟的需求，我們就配……因為主要是在管制區外的記者招待以及球員的動線，那在管制區內的話……"],["廖委員先翔：所以體育署原則上是管制區外的動線規劃？"],["范總經理孝倫：對，在管制區內的部分的話，我們有相關單位，包含海關、CIQS各單位都會來協助配合，用最快的方式，甚至包含航空公司在行李的配送等等，都會來充分的協助。至於我們在長廊裡面，因為有免稅店的設置，所以免稅店等於是夾道歡迎這樣的作用。"],["廖委員先翔：所以安排蕭美琴副總統在那個地點來迎接國手回來，這個點是誰決定的？"],["范總經理孝倫：這個部分是跟國安局特勤，大家有場勘過以後……"],["廖委員先翔：是國安局建議還是你們建議的？"],["范總經理孝倫：就是共同一起去看了這個場地以後的安排。"],["廖委員先翔：所以是你們桃機公司跟國安局共同決定，讓我們蕭美琴副總統在那邊迎接大家？"],["范總經理孝倫：我想這個要跟委員報告，其實慣例上我們的場域空間就是固定是這樣子，如果高級長官要出訪或者是回來，對於相關的動線怎麼去安排，我們都會有國安局……"],["廖委員先翔：國安局都會介入嘛！"],["范總經理孝倫：對，會來跟我們一起來場勘……"],["廖委員先翔：也是會提出一些建議嘛！"],["范總經理孝倫：保安的部分還有航警等等，各單位會一起來看這個動線空間，然後去做適當的安排跟規劃。"],["廖委員先翔：那有沒有任何一個單位有對采盟或是裡面其他的免稅商店提出要求，希望他們派員來夾道歡迎，有沒有任何一個單位提出這樣的需求？"],["范總經理孝倫：這一點要跟委員報告，因為采盟免稅店業者是桃機機場公司的廠商，比如說過去的奧運模式等等，我們都希望我們的選手出國或者回國的時候，在機場裡面能夠感受到我們熱情的支持，所以的確我們會跟免稅店業者商量，就是會有一個適當的區域讓它來……"],["廖委員先翔：所以是桃機公司邀請這些免稅商店嘛？"],["范總經理孝倫：是，我們會跟他們做這方面的討論。"],["廖委員先翔：所以這個鍋背的也不算委屈啦！人畢竟還是你們叫來的，只是說你們當初可能有告知他們就在哪一邊，可能不要穿越這邊，但是他們可能沒有遵守桃機公司當初的規則，然後現場的維安人員也沒有去阻止，才產生了那一天「黃巾之亂」這樣的慘案，過程應該是這樣子嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，確實當時采盟公司沒有依照原本跟桃機公司所律定的那個範圍及區域去歡迎跟加油，他們自己未經同意闖進來拍照，也未經同意拉了那個廣告布條，這些都是不被允許的，但他們都做了。"],["廖委員先翔：未來不會就這一次，希望未來有許多大家歡迎國手凱旋歸國的一些場合，我們就希望這一次的借鏡，大家都記取教訓，所有單位絕對不只我們桃機公司，絕對還有國安單位或者是體育署相關單位，大家都記取這次教訓，把相關一些的部分要做得更嚴謹，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：另外，在這一次中華隊奪冠之後，其實應該是全國舉國歡騰，但是過去常常在吵的國家意識型態問題，好像在奪冠之後也產生了政治上面的一些紛爭，包括新進來立法院的同事——王義川委員，應該跟您也非常熟識，他之前有相關的言論說他看到中華隊就「賭爛」，當然中華隊的名稱要怎麼參賽，這跟交通部沒有關係，但是他應該不是「賭爛」中華隊，他應該是「賭爛」中華兩個字，可以這樣子理解，不要去給他過度延伸。","所以我要問部長，在您就任了之後，我相信有許多政治光譜跟你比較接近的人，可能對中華這兩個字也都很不滿，我想確認一下，在您就任之後，有沒有任何的委員或任何人跟你提過要繼續推動中華航空公司改名？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，到目前為止沒有做過這方面的討論，也沒有任何委員跟我提這件事。"],["廖委員先翔：可是王義川很「賭爛」，很多人都說要講臺灣，不要講中華。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有委員跟我提過這件事。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是可能大家喊一喊，但是實際上沒有要求你來做改名？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有、沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：所以中華航空在短期內沒有改名的計畫？"],["陳部長世凱：現在都沒有做這樣的討論。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有做任何的討論嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：所以不會有這樣的計畫，目前沒有這樣的計畫。"],["廖委員先翔：因為我知道其實臺灣航空這個名字，好像也被人家註冊走了，其實華航是沒有機會改，所以就是華航短期沒有改名的計畫啦！"],["陳部長世凱：不會。"],["廖委員先翔：好，OK，那就可能就是大家在政論電視節目上各自表述。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：我再請教一下，其實明年年初的時候還會有一場棒球盛事，就是WBC經典賽的預賽，一樣在我們臺灣大巨蛋舉辦，請教一下，因為過去高鐵常常會配合一些大型活動給一些票價的優惠，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：加班車的部分有優惠這我就不太曉得。"],["廖委員先翔：或者說我們會有一些套票的活動，跟觀光旅遊業者做套票的配合。"],["陳部長世凱：這個有。"],["廖委員先翔：我們有沒有機會讓高鐵未來也跟……因為很多中南部的朋友，比賽一定在大巨蛋，有沒有機會讓高鐵公司跟到時候的主辦單位來做搭配，就是讓高鐵票和中華隊國際賽的門票做一個搭配，有沒有機會來做討論？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為高鐵公司上市櫃公司，他有他公司治理的層面，交通部其實是股東之一，這個部分委員的建議非常好，我可以來建議他們，因為這個在商業上面的操作來講，對他們也會有好處。"],["廖委員先翔：對公司有正面形象。"],["陳部長世凱：有正面形象，也會有好處，所以這個部分我們來跟他們建議。"],["廖委員先翔：是，那就麻煩部長，因為時間緊迫，是明年3、4月的事，要討論也是……是不是在今年底之前能夠有一個回應？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我先來跟他們討論，請他們跟委員做回應。"],["廖委員先翔：好，麻煩，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。接下來邀請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157508","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157508","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177affab3a294d8f022844e208bd6b14da828660580be52668218e43617b4878f6c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:48:50 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去韓國也好,去東南亞也好,很多國家針對行人的部分他們都有相關的法規。"},{"start":277.653,"end":299.895,"text":"厲我這個特別也看拿出臺中市政府之前辦的這感應式照明的舉例這行穿線上有特別有特別的亮燈跟特別的這個指示燈讓行人也覺得怎麼安全那開車的人也開得到所以這些部分我想問一下部長我們在明年的所謂的人本價值的部分有沒有把這種法令或是相關的規範能夠放到全國去還是"},{"start":300.936,"end":326.994,"text":"按照現在的方式來做而已報告員您所說的這個齁您所指的這一點其實我認為非常非常重要啦齁在行穿線的過程當中如果它的亮度可以特別比其他的道路再更亮一點我相信駕駛人或者是騎士齁騎車的騎士們大家會更能夠清楚看到有沒有行人通過所以這個部分交通部會來積極來推動那包含修法的部分我們應該在明年明年初應該就可以來完成吧要會進行檢討"},{"start":328.035,"end":329.256,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":348.351,"end":373.28,"text":"法規上應該都要明確的有一個數字出來而不是讓各縣政府因為現在變成是各縣政府各行其事自己做自己的那當然會有時候還是會有爭議嘛那麼當然說交通部你們掌管全國的交通而且我們看到剛剛的數字每年都因為交通事故死這麼多人而且死傷總和是一直往上漲的情況下面應該好好來處理這個事情好不好同樣的一樣回到人行一樣是這個人本交通看到人行道的部分"},{"start":375.026,"end":389.857,"text":"adequate我們也花了很多錢去推動人們交通也做了非常多人行道的更新那我們看到這個是剛好是我最近收到一個澄清案人行道雖然已經鋪設了然後把它變寬了但是人行道變多會有這個問題就是電箱"},{"start":391.44,"end":397.103,"text":"：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":415.194,"end":441.984,"text":"有沒有辦法或是有沒有預算乾脆這種遷移電箱的錢也乾脆編在這裡面就好了報告委員我們目前的這個規劃裡面只要是地方政府跟我們申請的過程當中我們都會希望他把這個納入那經費的部分的補助我們也應該都會有補助這個沒有問題但是管線遷移的部分都會納入但是地方政府在申請的過程當中其實他要先提出來請他先提出來那這個部分我們都會納進來沒有問題所以部長我確認一下"},{"start":444.065,"end":468.631,"text":"像這種電箱遷移在做新的人行道的時候,包含這個除了工程面之外,像電箱遷移的錢也可以編在這個預算裡面嗎?可以,它可以編在預算裡面,我們會來做補助。好,部長謝謝,因為這個才是真的解決這個問題啦。我們這個部分吼,我們會支持地方的預算,那另外我們也會跟台電一起來合作,來做這方面的工作。"},{"start":470.111,"end":498.076,"text":"bedingt講到台電每次都是這個問題就台電會跟你說他沒錢所以常常就遇到這個問題比較常的問題是他找不到地方找不到地方找不到地方是一個問題啦沒錢是一個問題啦所以我才想說至少先把錢解決啦那地方大家可以來協調嘛好不好是好那繼續齁一樣還是我還是很注重我們只要講人本交通部分啦這個緩速波其實在人本交通規劃手冊裡面有把這種減速波的各項的比較優缺點來放進去但是依照現在的現行的狀況"},{"start":499.096,"end":506.088,"text":"各道路其實基本上對這種減速坡好像也沒有硬性規定。這個是只有規範但是沒有硬性規定吧。"},{"start":507.425,"end":533.466,"text":"什麼地方該放減速波因為其實包含說我們之前討論到了這個假車牌的問題有很多他除了犯罪之外很多人假車牌他不用假車牌被扣車的原因就是差超速因為我們道路就是這樣子嘛就他除了有些地方會有車速障礙之外很多地方很好開他就很容易超速那超速之後那當然就會收到罰單那罰單他被破腳牌照他就做個假車牌這個是一個因果關係那我們今天要回到"},{"start":534.207,"end":537.01,"text":"兩、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單兩、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":558.391,"end":585.1,"text":"是不是就是規範而已並沒有說什麼地方應該放什麼地方不該放我不知道部長在這個事情上面立場上面你未來要不要推動還是說就是按照現在這樣子各地方政府想裝就裝想過就做。委員標誌標線的部分我們會比較有強制的部分那這個部分我們做規範的部分也在做檢討當中我覺得委員這個建議很好就是有些地方是不是應該要做減速波我們要一個標準出來讓地方可以去依循"},{"start":585.96,"end":594.345,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單六、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":607.714,"end":608.815,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":618.712,"end":619.512,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":643.2,"end":661.017,"text":"包括多少坡度多少設計我希望能夠有法令很明確的把它放進去而不是變成只有建議性質尤其是我們看到一開始那張圖我們每年的死亡人數因為交通事故的死傷人數逐年上漲的情況下我們希望部長能夠把這件事情做好這個我們正在檢討我們會把委員的意見納入謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":441,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時48分）謝謝主席。我們先請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：一開始大家還是很關切我們這兩天接機的事件，但是我身為交通委員，不得不說我覺得我們桃機跟交通部這邊背了一個鍋，我問一下，管制區內最高指揮是誰？"],["陳部長世凱：請總經理回答。"],["范總經理孝倫：跟委員報告，基本上來講，是各單位都有分工。"],["黃委員健豪：我想既然要檢討，各單位都要檢討，因為在桃機發生，你們當然會變成主要的炮……"],["陳部長世凱：地點在機場。"],["黃委員健豪：地點在機場，所以一定會有這個問題，但是我必須講，很多網友，包含我自己在第一時間看到了，最主要的責任，如果你們真的要檢討的話，國安局也有責任，那些人怎麼突然跑到副總統身邊拍照呢？對不對？這個問題，我知道你們事前有規劃，事前規劃一定有所謂國安局的動線，你們桃機也配合，交通部也配合嘛，大家都配合，世凱部長也輔選過有相關的一些經驗，如果今天總統、副總統要到場，事前的場勘一定會非常嚴密，但是沒有人算到有人衝上來吧？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，現場有做兩次的場勘，跟國安特勤也好，或者是跟體育署也好，甚至我也有請桃機公司也要會同職棒聯盟，職棒聯盟的部分，他們的意見都要納入，現場其實確實有做會勘的動作，當時在當天在管制區裡面發生這件事情是因為采盟公司沒有依照原先的律定，沒有依照原先規定好的方式，自己衝出來，然後就未經同意拍照，未經同意就拉了廣告布條。"],["黃委員健豪：你們回去既然要提檢討報告，我覺得包含總統、副總統維安的部分，你們應該也要找他們檢討一下，因為這第一時間的維安，大家覺得有點奇怪，到底什麼人莫名其妙可以衝到副總統旁邊拍照，即便今天是本席要衝到副總統旁邊拍照也會被擋下來，理論上通常是這樣子，國安局平常在外面負責總統、副總統的維安是很兇的，一般來講是這樣，怎麼那天這群人可以這麼快地竄到副總統身邊去，然後還可以拉布條？這麼多時間做這麼多事，包含檢討部分當然桃機是爐主，但是各單位的協調工作，我希望檢討報告裡面要帶上去，未來尤其這種有維安特勤在場的時候，你們可能就沒有主導權了，這部分我覺得還是要幫我們桃機說點話，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：桃機請回，我們繼續針對今天的主題，有關今天預算部分，部長報告六大施政重點的編列情形，其中有關落實運輸安全跟人本價值的部分，編列占比是31.19%，等於是六大施政目標裡面最大一部分占了31.19%，主要在談人本交通，當然其中真正落實以人為本的部分，因為鐵道占很多啦！但這以人為本編列的5億1,700元，大概比例來講，沒有像本來想像的那麼高，但是的確也確實應該要重視人本交通部分。","我們看一下，近年來全國歷年死傷人數跟全國歷年死傷人數的行人部分，你看歷年死傷人數是逐年上漲喔！是真的一直往上跑，這個線圖是往上跑，行人死傷人數整個趨勢也是往上跑，近3年來死亡人數也是這個數字，每年大約就是3,000人左右上下，幾乎沒有什麼改變，就死亡人數，110年、111年、112年，所以為什麼我今天要先提這個數字，因為既然我們現在很注重人本交通，交通部也編列了這麼多預算，也特別匡列出一個項目是針對人本交通的部分，那到底要做什麼事情，我們看一下。","我想交通委員會是不分黨派，林俊憲委員上禮拜提的部分，我也是呼應他一下，包含行人的感應式照明，或包含行人穿越線的時候，要有一些告示牌跟特別的路燈指示，大家常常出國考察，我們出國，不管去歐洲也好，去韓國也好，去東南亞也好，很多國家針對行人的部分，它們都有相關的法規，我特別也拿出臺中市政府之前辦的感應式照明來舉例，行穿線上有特別的亮燈跟特別的指示燈，讓行人也覺得走的安全，開車的人也看得到，所以這些部分，我想問一下部長，我們在明年所謂人本價值的部分，有沒有把這種法令或者是相關的規範能夠放到全國去，還是按照現在的方式來做而已？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所說的這個，你所指的這一點，其實我認為非常非常重要，在行穿線的過程當中，如果它的亮度可以特別比其他的道路再更亮一點，我相信駕駛人或者是騎車的騎士們，大家會更能夠清楚看到有沒有行人通過，所以這個部分交通部會積極來推動，包含修法的部分，我們應該在明年初應該就可以來完成吧！我們會進行檢討。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我們希望是說……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會納入我們法規裡面，希望各個縣市都要照這樣的方式來辦理。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我想這樣，現在是試辦，比如臺中市試辦，各縣市可能自己試辦，包含行穿線怎麼設計、燈放在哪裡、黃燈還是白燈、流明度多少、照明度多少，這個我覺得規範、法規上應該都要明確地有一個數字出來，而不是讓各縣市政府……因為現在變成是各縣市政府各行其事，自己做自己的，當然有時候還是會有爭議嘛！我們當然希望交通部你們掌管全國的交通，而且我們看到剛剛的數字，每年都因為交通事故死這麼多人，而且死傷總和是一直往上漲的情況下面，應該好好來處理這個事好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員健豪：好，同樣的，一樣是這個人本交通，我看到人行道的部分，我想這一、兩年的確我們也花了很多錢去推動人本交通，也做了非常多人行道的更新，我們看到這個剛好是我最近收到一個陳情案，人行道雖然已經鋪設了，然後把它變寬了，但是人行道裡面都會有這個問題，就是電箱，有的是台電的，有的是中華電信的，很明顯就是以這個案例為例，政府已經編錢了，然後也確實要拓寬人行道，你從圖上看的很明顯，拓寬之後，它的電箱一樣在中間，你的輪椅跟嬰兒車一樣沒有辦法通過這段路段，所以未來在編列這種人行道預算的時候，除了做工程面之外，有沒有辦法或是有沒有預算，乾脆遷移電箱的錢也編列在這裡面就好了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前的規劃裡面，只要是地方政府跟我們申請的過程當中，我們都會希望它把這個納入，經費部分的補助，我們也應該都會有補助，這個沒有問題，管線遷移的部分都會納入，但是地方政府在申請的過程當中，其實它要先提出來，請它先提出來，這個部分我們都會納進來，沒有問題。"],["黃委員健豪：所以部長，我確認一下，像這種電箱遷移，在做新的人行道的時候，除了工程面之外，像電箱遷移的錢，也可以編在這個預算裡面嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，它可以邊在預算裡面，我們會來做補助。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，謝謝，這個才是真的解決這個問題啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們這個部分會支持地方的預算，另外，我們也會跟台電一起合作來做這方面的工作。"],["黃委員健豪：最近講到台電，每次都是這個問題，就是台電會跟你說它沒錢，所以常常就遇到這個問題。"],["陳部長世凱：比較常的問題是它找不到地方。"],["黃委員健豪：找不到地方是一個問題啦！沒錢也是一個問題啦！所以我才想說至少先把錢解決啦！地方大家可以來協調嘛！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：好，繼續，一樣我還是很注重，還是要講人本交通部分，緩速坡其實在人本交通規劃手冊裡面，有把這種減速坡各項的比較、優缺點放進去，但是依照現行的狀況，道路其實基本上對於這種減速坡好像也沒有硬性規定。"],["陳部長世凱：這個是只有規範，但是沒有硬性規定。"],["黃委員健豪：什麼地方應該放減速坡？因為其實包含我們之前討論到假車牌的問題，有很多除了犯罪之外，很多人會用假車牌，被扣車的原因就是他超速，因為我們的道路就是這樣子嘛！除了有些地方會有測速照相之外，很多地方很好開，就很容易超速，超速之後，當然就會收到罰單，他被扣繳牌照之後，他就去做個假車牌，這個是一個因果關係。我們今天要回到政策執行面的時候，我們希望像這種緩速坡部分，不管是馬來西亞也好，或者是最近去韓國也好，都會看到它們在很多重要路口，或者是大路口，或是社區路口，都會放很多的減速丘跟減速坡或減速平台，它都有相關法令的規範，多少的坡度、多少的速度可以減緩多少速度？雖然我們有這個規範，但是在目前為止，是不是就是規範而已？並沒有說什麼地方應該放、什麼地方不該放，我不知道部長，在這個事情上面、立場上面，你未來要不要推動，還是說就是按照現在這樣子，各地方政府想裝就裝、想做就做？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，標誌、標線我們會比較有強制的部分，這個部分，我們做規範的部分也在做檢討當中，我覺得委員這個建議很好，就是有些地方是不是應該要做減速波，我們要一個標準出來，讓地方可以去依循，依照那個去依循，哪些地方是需要減速坡的，哪些地方是不需要，但這個可能還需要一個試辦的過程，整個過程當中還是要試辦一下，因為我所知道我們在臺灣有一些地方政府只要提試辦計畫，我們就會來協助啦！"],["黃委員健豪：我們希望它能夠試辦的地方能夠多一點啦！尤其是你也當過議員，你很清楚，很多地方小巷口也要裝紅綠燈，為什麼？就是怕車子撞到人，或是怕大家闖紅燈，或是怕大家晚上開太快嘛！但是科學上，裝太多紅綠燈的確也會造成整個行車效率的低落，是不是透過減速丘或減速坡的方式，他必須慢下來的時候，也不一定要裝紅綠燈啊！他的車速就會變慢嘛！他變慢，自然就比較有機會看到行人，要不然在這種小巷道裡面裝了這麼多紅綠燈，他真的開快，他照樣闖紅燈，一樣會造成事故傷亡跟死亡，所以這部分我覺得減速丘跟減速坡這種概念，包含多少坡度、多少設計，我希望能夠有法令很明確地把它放進去，而不是變成只有建議性質，尤其是我們看到一開始的那張圖，我們每年的死亡人數，因為交通事故的死傷人數逐年上漲的情況下，我們希望部長能夠把這個事情做好。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們正在檢討，我們會把委員的意見納入，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來邀請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157507","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a6f0c63c8fd12bc9f44e208bd6b14da828660580be5266821094ecae5687cafe55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:22:42 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bicyclist 審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":725.252,"end":747.53,"text":"幸福巴士的這個其實已經就是說這個全國重要的一些偏鄉或是需要的鄉鎮其實大概都有那在彰化縣其實我們最近還有收到包括這個大春鄉其實他有提了那我想我們會來協助大春鄉就是說比如說怎麼樣因為其實彰化縣其實有相關的鄉鎮也有一些路線的所以我們有經驗"},{"start":748.271,"end":749.672,"text":"兩、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":774.602,"end":796.736,"text":"好謝謝因為彰化縣服務員比較廣闊然後也不是像都會區說人口集中像這個臺北臺中或高雄有這個捷運那麼發達所以這個公共運輸還是很重要那也希望我們公路局就是針對有需求的鄉鎮我們是不是可以盡量主動的給予協助他們提出這個申請這個部分我們主動來協助好謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：來，陳部長請。"],["陳委員素月：部長，早安。"],["陳部長世凱：召委，早安。"],["陳委員素月：本席首先想關心一下有關交通安全的問題，我們發現目前在中南部的快速道路匝道有出現一個問題，因為現在車流量增加，尤其是在上下班尖峰時刻車輛下匝道的時候，車流量都會回堵很長，超過了原本道路設計的規範。本席選區的76線在埔心匝道、員林匝道8月份就發生被檢舉達人檢舉了大概有一百多輛，應該就是一百多件，所以也造成這些車主真的是抱怨連連。經本席聯繫之後了解，以目前道路行駛的規範來說，路肩是不可以行駛的，可是就現況來說，這也是車主不得不的一個選擇。我們也發現快速道路的主管機關是公路局，負責取締違規的是屬於地方政府的警察局，只有76線是公路局所管理，沒錯，可是負責取締的卻是國道警察局。當然這可能是因為地方政府量能、處理能力的問題，所以由國道警察局來處理。本席聯絡國道警察局針對這個罰單是不是可以撤銷，可是國道警察局的回復是，他們也是依法行政，因為法令規定就是這樣。這樣的檢舉案讓本席陸續接到很多陳情，我了解過之後，當然是希望協助被檢舉人先申訴看看，我們也發現其實在本席接到這個陳情之前，也有類似的案件，車主也是尋求申訴程序，最後是走行政法庭到最高法院的程序，後來最高法院是跟他撤銷罰單的。我大概唸一段當時的判決文，那時候判決的認知是，原告（被舉發者）跟隨前方、遇下匝道的回堵車流緊靠路肩行駛，係為保護自己及他人生命財產安全，客觀上不得已之必要手段，其違規行駛路肩所造成之法益侵害，與保全自己及他人生命財產安全之法益相較，亦顯然較輕，因為這樣的理由就撤銷了他的罰單。因為道路設計的問題，導致這些車主違規，所以等於是你們陷他們於不義的那種感覺。因為道路設計就是這樣，可是以一般人行駛道路回堵的時候，有可能停止在主車道上，再去等切入右邊的匝道嗎？不可能！因為右邊都已經是要下匝道的車流了，你如果停等在主車道上，雖然是合法的，可是危險性是相當高的，而且他要切入右邊車流的時候，有可能造成插隊的現象，相較之下，真的是險象環生。","在這個之後，本席也安排了會勘來檢討，當然公路局、國道警察局，還有地方政府都有一致的共識，也就是採變通的方式，把下匝道的漸變車道拉長100米，讓車流靠右行駛的時候不至於發生違規的狀況。我應該是9月會勘，可是這樣的決議到現在都還沒有完成，我去追了一下，竟然都流標、沒有廠商要來投標。雖然這是一個小工程，可是這是一個很重要的工程，所以交通部是不是可以想辦法儘速來把它完成？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，現在這個案子已經在設計當中，因為委員9月30號有會勘，做了結論，公路局也會配合。我們現在正在設計，我們希望在明年1月份可以完成，就是完成當時委員會勘所要求的那些內容，應該明年1月就可以完成。"],["陳委員素月：如果在本席會勘之後，一直到1月你們還沒完成改變漸變車道標線劃設，這段期間又被檢舉的，你們要怎麼處理？"],["陳局長文瑞：目前下匝道的車確實太多了，所以第一個就是先把平面入口的一些紅綠燈做一些調整，讓他下去以後不要堵塞回來，當然我們把路肩的車道邊線往右邊，磨掉以後至少在走的時候、停等的時候，不是停在路肩，這個部分我們會儘快來做相關的處理，也會跟警方來看，因為已經都在施作了，是不是在施作過程中不要再開單，我們來跟警方協調。"],["陳委員素月：另外，有關之前的罰單，不曉得可不可以有處理的空間？當然也建請交通部去研議。因為之前東西向快速道路下匝道同樣有行駛路肩被檢舉的這種違規情況，臺南市警察局後來決議撤銷罰單，我不曉得這部分交通部跟國道警察局有沒有可能再進一步協調？"],["陳部長世凱：我們提供我們的意見給警方，告訴他們其實在這一段確實不應該開罰，對於民眾來講，開罰有一些不公平的地方，我們把我們的意見給警方，讓他們參考。"],["陳委員素月：因為這個有法院判決的案例可循，我是這樣建議。當然一切都是以交通行駛安全為最先考量。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["陳委員素月：接下來，本席想關心一下，有關微型電動二輪車掛牌這個事情，緩衝期就是11月30號，我們在前年底公告實施之後，緩衝期到今年11月30號截止。我們當初希望把它納管的原因就是二輪電動車使用者的數量有逐漸在提升，可是肇事率也一樣有在提高。像本席在基層遇到的狀況也是很多，發生交通事故卻很難處理，就是因為他們沒有保險。因為電動二輪車沒有納管，所以他們沒有辦法辦理強制險，我們也是基於安全問題，希望將它納管。目前掛牌的數量到底如何，是不是可以簡單說明？"],["陳部長世凱：目前掛牌的已經到25萬輛左右，尤其是新車。目前新車出廠之後會來領牌的大概有五萬多，新車的掛牌率有到百分之九十八；舊的部分因為有些已經退租了、沒有繼續騎，目前總共有25萬輛已經掛牌。"],["陳委員素月：還沒有掛牌的，有去掌握它的原因嗎？因為沒有掛牌就要開罰！"],["陳局長文瑞：對，而且沒有掛牌未來也不能使用，有一些可能是改裝，改裝太嚴重的話，縱使到監理機關來檢驗也沒辦法通過，也沒辦法掛牌，所以將來這些部分可能就是不再騎乘。因為電動二輪車主要就是掛了牌以後，將來要在路邊稽查取締也比較方便，所以沒掛牌將來都是違規的。"],["陳委員素月：目前我們在基層會遇到大概兩個狀況，因為在法令修訂之前買的微型二輪電動車沒有出廠證明，導致現在要掛牌可能會有一點困難。另外還有一個部分就是驗車，因為微型二輪電動車的使用者一般都是比較高齡的長輩或者移工，你要他們把車子騎到監理站去辦，距離很遠，然後也會涉及到電儲能的問題，可能電力不夠、續航力不夠，所以導致他們會很困難，所以針對這兩樣，我們也希望交通部監理所這邊是不是可以研議怎樣來便民，然後讓他們除了改裝這個問題之外，就是在合法的狀況下，可以趕快來掛牌？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，我們會儘量做到點服務，就是針對移工比較聚集的工廠或者是比較重要的路口，老人家比較會騎這種車子經過的路口，我們就到點服務，讓大家比較方便能夠來申請、來領牌。"],["陳委員素月：是，謝謝。我再關心最後一個問題，就是有關人本及交通平權的問題，我們也看到在明年在公路公共運輸計畫有編列6億2,100萬，要推動偏鄉及超高齡地區多元運輸服務，其中有關幸福巴士，我們知道現在有關公共運輸，因為整個時代的改變，以前當然家裡有自用車比較少的時候，當然公共運輸就會比較發達，相對地，現在大家家裡可能都有兩、三部自小客車，導致公共運輸客運的部分載運客少的時候可能就是會減班，路線也會停駛等等，所以這樣子相對循環之下造成公共運輸更困難，所以我們也很肯定幸福巴士這樣的一個模式，不曉得在明年度公路局這邊有沒有什麼樣的目標？針對推動幸福巴士的部分。"],["陳局長文瑞：是，跟委員報告，幸福巴士其實已經在全國重要的一些偏鄉或者是需要的鄉鎮大概都有，在彰化縣，我們最近還有收到包括大村鄉也有提了，我們會來協助大村鄉比如怎麼樣……因為其實彰化縣相關的鄉鎮也有一些路線，所以我們有經驗來協助他們，看看到底是車輛的需求還是營運費用的需求、營運的組織要怎麼樣，其實我們可以來協助。另外包括田尾鄉還沒有，我們也去跟鄉公所那邊也洽請看看是不是有需求的路線，有需要的鄉鎮如果沒有主動來提的話，我們就請監理所站也去跟他們公所做洽詢，我們來協助服務。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝，因為彰化縣幅員比較廣闊，也不是像都會區人口集中，像臺北、臺中或高雄有捷運那麼發達，所以公共運輸還是很重要，也希望公路局針對有需求的鄉鎮是不是可以儘量主動給予協助，請他們提出申請計畫？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們主動來協助。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝素月召委，謝謝部長、局長。","接下來是處理臨時提案，之後休息10分鐘。"],["主席（陳委員素月）：現在處理臨時提案1案，請議事人員宣讀。","案由：","有鑑於「宜蘭鐵路高架化」計畫自宜蘭縣政府於1993年提出《宜蘭地區鐵路立體化（郊區化）可行性研究暨規畫》至今已逾三十年，前開規畫預期將宜蘭縣境內，台鐵宜蘭線的頭城至冬山間的鐵路車站全數高架化，藉此縫合因鐵道分割的都市，以促進城鄉發展及開發，然宜蘭人引頸期盼多年仍未果，甚至尚未核定。","而阻礙的其中一個主因在於地方經費之匱乏。原本奉行政院核定總經費約252.09億元，地方分攤經費約54.4億元，然因中央牛步，加上近年物價指數飛漲，導致總經費調整高達約501.29億元，地方分攤經費變成約105.72億元，足足增加51.32億元，此金額乃宜蘭縣政府7.1年的可用財源，倘由宜蘭縣政府全額負擔，其他施政計畫恐難以執行。","查「臺中都會區鐵路高架捷運化計畫」即獲得中央全部補助，又交通部部長陳世凱曾於月前表示「中央跟地方鐵路高架化預算分配，雖有一套原則，但可做專案協調。」亦即中央有全額補助之空間。而前總統蔡英文亦於2018年時承諾並背書此計畫中宜蘭及羅東優先段之300億金額。","爰此提案要求交通部全額補助宜蘭鐵路高架化計畫之經費，以加速宜蘭鐵路高架化之推動與執行，促進宜蘭縣之發展與便利，並使得其施政計畫得以遂行。","提案人：林沛祥　　吳宗憲　　黃健豪　　廖先翔"],["主席：好，請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見？請交通部說明。"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，這個提案經過我們跟吳宗憲委員辦公室協調，委員也同意做文字修正，主要修正是在最後一段「爰此提案要求交通部全額補助」，我們建議修成「爰此提案建請交通部全額補助」，把「要求」改成「建請」。"],["主席：好，吳宗憲委員同意？"],["黃司長運貴：對，有跟他報告過了。"],["主席：好，這樣子就照交通部的修正意見通過，謝謝。臨時提案處理完畢，如有委員對上述提案補簽列入紀錄，並刊登公報。現在休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（10時38分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","繼續邀請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157506","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157506","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177acefc5dfc87c7aacdaab8b86039943efc8660580be526682109fd7804f724e0895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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11:09:14","影片長度":"00:07:18","會議時間":"2024-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管「考選業務基金」收支部分。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公務人員退休撫卹基金」收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金基金」收支部分。\n五、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於考試院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答；預算提案於12月3日中午12時截止收件】\n【11月25日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-27","start_time":"2024-11-27T11:01:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-27T11:09:14+08:00","duration":438,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.38096875,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.496593750000002,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.25596875,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.23034375,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.54659375,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.89596875,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.933468750000003,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.94971875,"end":38.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.37534375,"end":37.510343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.704093750000006,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.63159375,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.55096875,"end":52.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.204093750000006,"end":54.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.48221875,"end":56.258468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.27096875,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.439093750000005,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.07596875,"end":63.329093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":66.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.15534375,"end":69.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.69096875000001,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.73284375,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.53846875,"end":77.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.09034375,"end":82.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.81534375000001,"end":85.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.89971875,"end":84.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.73909375000001,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.51534375,"end":87.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.91596875,"end":88.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.77659375,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.80159375000001,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.03346875000001,"end":93.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.13846875,"end":97.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.56409375000001,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.30596875,"end":105.71909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.37284375,"end":109.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.12346875,"end":110.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.45596875000001,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.81846875000001,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.55221875000001,"end":121.75034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.93159375,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.73284375000001,"end":128.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.60971875,"end":131.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.99346875,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.26721875,"end":136.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.30034375,"end":140.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.91159375,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.02534375000002,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.45971875,"end":147.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.63221875000002,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.80471875,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.71159375000002,"end":154.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.75784375,"end":156.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.72784375,"end":158.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.02721875,"end":160.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.83284375000002,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.84909375,"end":165.64221875}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Kacaw委員：（11時2分）主席、各位委員。有請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：秘書長好。這段時間在野黨都會關心年金改革，年金改革已經實施，從106年嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：107年上路。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：法律通過是106年嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：106年修法。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以已經實施這麼長的時間，各方面的狀況也與以往都不一樣，你當時在哪個職務我忘了，就是說立法院三讀通過的公務人員、教師的資遣撫卹這些法律，退休資遣撫卹法這些法律，你瞭不瞭解當初立法院三讀通過的版本？"],["劉秘書長建忻：大致瞭解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是誰的版本？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該算立法院的版本。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，是段宜康委員的版本。"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，你先聽我講，因為我在場，第9屆我在場，我也在司法及法制委員會參加審查，一直到院會。當時總統府請了副總統，召集了考試院、行政院，包括專家學者，討論出一個版本送到立法院，這畢竟是一個跨部會、跨院，然後有專家學者，以總統府的高度所送出來的版本，但是第9屆那個年代是一個殺氣騰騰的年代，對軍公教、警消，所以通過的版本是段宜康的版本，這是一個事實，在這樣的一個過程當中，實施這麼多年之後是該檢討了。好，這裡有沒有常務次長？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們有考試院所屬部會，您是說常務次長？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，沒關係。秘書長，一個常務次長，早期是25年就可以退休嘛！然後就退休了，也沒有信賴保護啊！溯及既往啊！那些都沒有了，都不見了。你認為一個25年就退休的常務次長，14職等，你認為他每個月的退休金、退休俸，多少才是可以讓他好好地生活？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我請施部長來說明。"],["施部長能傑：其實我們在討論退休金應該是兩個概念去看，一個是制度面的設計，一個是根據這個制度面實際會拿到多少錢，我想是這樣的設計。至於實際拿到多少錢才足夠一個人的退休生活，這個真的也是滿……每個人有不太一樣的概念啦！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，我知道，我們就不談這個好了。最起碼中華民國政府一個公務員，我們就講6職等好了，從6職等這樣升升升，升到常務次長14職等，還不是只有當一、兩年哦！當很多年的常務次長之後，以前早期25年可以退休嘛！就退休了，這樣高的一個職等，我們不講生活啦！這樣高的一個職等，結果他每個月的退休金如果只有四萬多元、5萬元，你說合不合理？他本來是每個月領10萬元，所以這個部分需要去檢討，已經實施這麼多年了，該檢討了。","尤其是警消，剛才秘書長的答復我不太認同，他可能不太瞭解，現在的院長被提名人周弘憲，未來假設立法院通過，他當考試院院長，當初他當銓敘部部長的時候，我質詢他、我建議他，他也認同警消的退休不應該放在公務人員退休資遣撫卹法，就應該放在警察人員人事條例裡面，不應該拉出來，因為這真的是不一樣，不一樣的工作，包括一些相關的。","以軍人來說好了，當初軍人有做調整，因為當時的國防部部長很堅持，說軍人的部分有比公教警消來得好一點點，但是如果我們現在來看軍人，切啊！現在切軍人切得很嚴重啊！買了這麼多高性能的武器，到時候沒有人來操作，精良的武器要有精良的國軍、軍人，但是也沒有啊！所以這個部分考試院要併同地去思考，因為主席已經站起來了，這是一個很重要的議題，畢竟從107年實施到現在，真的是該檢討了，以上，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：謝謝鄭委員，謝謝秘書長跟部長。","接下來有請楊委員瓊瓔發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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論是現在透過OTT平台、抖音或者其他的網路媒介，即使我們現在常常講中國的影片要進來臺灣都要經過一定的審查或審核……"],["王次長時思：對，一年只有10部。"],["林委員楚茵：但是OTT平台當中，其實你要看也管不到。所以，同樣的，中國的這種長臂管轄於臺灣，像我們今天討論的「國有器官」，即使它本身進來在臺灣演了，但是因為它製造這種灰色地帶的恐懼跟恐慌，事實上對他們有利的，我們沒有辦法以相關的法規阻止，但是像這種揭露中國真相的，確實常常會透過其他的方式，來侵擾臺灣原本應該要有的言論保障，對不對？"],["王次長時思：我想中國利用臺灣民主自由的這一個特點，作為他們力量的延伸跟切入點，由來已久，這對臺灣整體來說，是一個需要去加強識讀跟加強辨識很重要的核心。在電視或電影的放映上，電影上面是有清楚的管制，包括一年只有10部，主題也有限制；但是在串流平台上面，或對於網際網路的這個部分，的確也因為臺灣整體對言論自由的保障，無法有其他的管制辦法。這一次在「國有器官」現場對安全的恐嚇跟威脅，對於這個部分，我們大概就是跟警政署做最大的配合，只要能夠保障現場人員的安全，我們就是維持它繼續放映的權利。"],["林委員楚茵：好，特別要讓王政次出來講這個部分，就是因為我們看到中國的兩手策略。我要請教警政署，其實中國的複合式威脅──一手打、一手拉，比如像現在他們就是透過這種恐嚇威脅的方式，讓這一部以紀錄片方式揭露中國活生生摘取器官的殘忍過程，能夠呈現給國人知道，對中國來講，這就是一個對他們不好、他們不想要的狀況。對於這些恐嚇跟威脅，我只問警政署在接受到一定的報案之後，你們有能力來維護國家的安全，讓這些不論是放映的電影院，又或者是來觀賞電影的民眾，不會心生恐懼，變成是內心害怕、擔心小警總嗎？以你們目前所接受到的這些報案，到底有沒有辦法追到源頭，有沒有辦法維護民眾的安全？"],["李副署長政曉：我想我們一定盡全力來偵辦。目前接受報案的有30件，這30件是透過14個國家跳板到我們國內，事實上，我們也有資料顯示，其中一件是來自大陸地區，所以我們……"],["林委員楚茵：只有一件來自大陸地區，其他的可有在地協力者協助？還是有其他國家的人無法追蹤到？"],["李副署長政曉：因為是從14個國家跳板進來，有一些國家沒有互助的協定，所以我們只知道是從這個國家跳板過來的。"],["林委員楚茵：我要問國安局張副局長，因為本席已經是第十個發言的委員，前面委員大概關注的都差不多。其實對中國來講，「國有器官」就是一個灰色作戰，不斷威脅臺灣的一個成功的案例、成功的模式；未來只要像這種揭露中國不堪的殘暴真相，不想讓臺灣民眾看到，或者不想讓臺灣的在地協力者可以有機會更囂張、更猖狂，他們就用這種方式。因為在臺灣有言論自由，可以播放，所以他們就用威嚇、恐嚇的方式，讓真正想了解真相的人不敢進場；再加上中國現在的長臂管轄，他們可以透過其他地方，來進行引渡，如果你在臺灣看了，你飛到其他國家，他有引渡相關條約的時候，他甚至可以無限擴張這種恐嚇。請問國安局有想到如何因應嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：是，跟委員報告，這分幾個部分，第一個就是用這種手段來恐嚇，或者是用網路的恐嚇手段，我們會用科技手段聯合我們國安團隊來進行查處，查處確認後，也會適度地揭露這種手法；第二個就是這種恐嚇多半是虛張聲勢，所以在國內，我們的警察同仁和警政署也會加強相關事件的查處，並同步揭露；也就是讓民眾放心，我們會儘量做到讓民眾在一個沒有中共打壓或者是恐嚇，這樣的一個情況下，持續來正常運作。至於國外的部分，剛剛也跟幾位委員報告過，事實上，他在境外做長臂管轄的話，也將涉及到他國的司法管轄權，所以，即便他有引渡條例，大部分的民主國家都排除政治意義這個條款。所以根據這種意識形態所制定的，事實上很多國家是不會同意的，而且很多我們的友盟，也主張臺海和穩的重要性，不希望片面改變現狀。所以這幾個部分，我們大家同步來努力，確保國人這方面的安全。"],["林委員楚茵：本席最後要跟主席借個30秒，想問一下陸委會沈副主委，我們知道，馬英九找了一批包括馬龍、楊倩來到臺灣，他說這是文化交流，可是這些人全都具有中國共產黨黨員的背景，他們甚至說，中共共產黨的黨員身分不足為奇，這是與有民進黨身分的人進去大陸一樣，請問這一樣嗎？這算不算另外一種、另類的統戰？像這樣的統戰，包括這樣的模式，陸委會怎麼看？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：跟委員報告，我們確實有發現到，近期中國大陸來這邊交流的，包含像體育、教育、宗教等等，他們的這個背景跟過往相較之下，有越來越特別的地方，可能都是經過精心挑選。針對這樣的樣態，陸委會現在審查的標準，在現行法令規定沒有調整的情況下，我們都還是採用一致性的標準來進行審查；但是我們也會特別留意他們到臺灣之後一些行程的安排，也要求他們必須確保他們跟他們申請的這個內容活動相符合。"],["林委員楚茵：本席很感謝主席今天安排這個題目，其實可以看得出來中國對臺灣的灰色作戰──一手拉、一手打，另外滲透，另外是製造心理的恐慌，是全面性的。今天在臺上的這些相關部會首長，也要把這樣的案例，作為中國黑色滲透，非常需要注意觀察的一個模式，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，各位請回座。","接下來發言的委員是羅智強委員、羅智強委員、羅智強委員不在。","吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢。報告及詢答結束。本日會議有羅智強委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","林憶君","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","林楚茵","羅智強"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、文化部、內政部警政署、大陸委員會報告「從『國有器官』在台播映困境看中\n國對台灣的長臂管轄策略，及我國的因應方案」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00011"}}},{"id":"157504","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157504","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177aa1b549d31584278a9efc61e85f95edfb8660580be5266821b0c18060a6df1b5f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:55:32 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節流這節流這是算節流這是節流而已那開源的部分呢"},{"start":114.541,"end":137.679,"text":"臺電有什麼開源的計畫?臺電如果要開源只剩下少數的非營業不動產的聯合開發以臺電來講過去幾年我們累計下來我過去三年其實臺電大概是法律的限制還是你沒有辦法做還是根本就沒有法規上面就做不到"},{"start":138.439,"end":163.329,"text":"我們講資產活化任何公家機關都一樣一樣法規有沒有限制沒有限制的話你能不能夠有資產活化的機會我只關心未來臺灣的政府如果還要繼續每年撥補500到600億我們有多少的時間可以去消化這些虧損否則你是不是又要漲電價我現在只關心的是你500億到600億你要多久之後又要漲電價"},{"start":164.389,"end":165.85,"text":"我現在看到的是你們有在努力的但是效益很低也很少"},{"start":180.09,"end":195.886,"text":"我們非營業的空間其實沒那麼多啦但是也一年大概折線起來大概算起來一年的營收也有八九十億啦當然包括我們海外的投資等等所以次長我的立場是很簡單第一這填補以前的"},{"start":196.226,"end":196.666,"text":"對我來說 我想知道"},{"start":220.624,"end":234.517,"text":"有多少開源的計畫,你要多久補漲電價?你這樣的兩千億撥補進去,你可以撐多久?讓台灣的人民安心的至少在民生用電上面不調漲,一年還是兩年還是三年?"},{"start":236.5,"end":257.3,"text":"我原狀況是這個樣子就是說條不條長我真的不能夠台電董事長講這是第一個 第二個剛才您提到就是我們其實現在在縮短它中間的差額那這個差額的縮短其實另外一個部分就是我們當然講說我們希望能夠透過我們的那個再生能源能夠轉出去以後降低我們的"},{"start":258.021,"end":258.181,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":279.212,"end":303.596,"text":"貴來幾年還要面對每一年臺電希望來爭取撥補（補貼你們的虧損（有可能繼續發生（如果在不漲電價的狀況下（是嗎我覺得這一個（所以這兩千億不會是（結束這兩千億只是開始報告委員我其實現在沒有辦法非常肯定跟您說這一件事因為現在的國際燃料價格還是在戰前的大概1.6 1.7%"},{"start":306.857,"end":319.787,"text":"董事長,我們討論了半天,其實就在於回到這個,我們現在目前台電的發電量跟購電量是2400億度,但是火力發電目前占比是高達81.9"},{"start":322.689,"end":342.768,"text":"火力發電它其實就跟國際燃油價格包括國際的這些燃料價格的波動很影響很大所以重點是再生能源趕不上那接下去未來10年我想知道對於這些火力發電的發電量怎麼降低從哪邊補上看起來我們一直在問的是這個問題"},{"start":344.429,"end":366.778,"text":"如果要影響,不要影響那麼大,你的火力發電量現在可能勢必要往下降,你才有機會講到你剛剛講的填補這個虧損,否則只要他們一打仗,只要他們一發生這種狀況,現在每公噸是135塊美金,那疫情爆發之前大概只有80塊,所以接下去會不會漲,不知道,所以我的意思是很簡單,"},{"start":368.078,"end":388.648,"text":"立法院要知道兩千億是不是結束不是兩千億還會繼續增加更多的撥補還是你可以多久之內做到有可能至少告訴大家說在電價調漲跟撥補之間找到的平衡點我們需要多少時間其實我需要知道的是未來"},{"start":389.488,"end":407.603,"text":"董事長,我講得很清楚我們知道你的未來我才能知道今年這兩千億給了你將來是不是個無底洞還是永遠都要用這樣的方式所以你們大概可以給我們一個具體的說明跟對於這些的承諾不管是承諾好了至少你有一些具體的做法是吧"},{"start":410.623,"end":410.803,"text":"對,第一個就是"},{"start":423.868,"end":425.149,"text":"最後一個小問題就是上次講的我們光"},{"start":442.662,"end":470.779,"text":"運煤過來的製船費一年20億你們今天跟我說今年會改善因為我們的倉庫弄好了所以但是還要到4億我想問你接下去明年呢後年呢你可以做到比4億更少還是要到4億一年4億還是很多錢跟委員報告那個船期會有一些參差如果提早卸會有快一些的收入晚的話就會有製船費我們明年一定打平"},{"start":471.619,"end":500.076,"text":"希望打0這是你的承諾喔如果明年還有這筆再被審計處找出來那就董事長自己要負責任了是不能再有這種什麼因為沒有辦法卸貨而放在船上放20億我們撥補才1000億你就20億拿來浪費掉了是 明年如果沒做到董事長負責任今年的4億明年是0我們希望董事長說到做到是好 謝謝好 謝謝珊珊委員接著請李坤城委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時55分）謝謝主席，我想請董事長跟次長。"],["主席：董事長，還有我們次長。"],["曾董事長文生：委員早。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，兩位好。我想今天針對台電的追加預算，還有明年所謂1,000億元的公務預算撥補，這兩筆錢都是要填補前幾年的虧損是嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它是過去的錢？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以其實昨天董事長來拜會的時候，我也問過一句非常簡單的話：這樣的填補還要多久？還要多少？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：這2,000億元是過去，現在我關心的是未來。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，簡單第一個狀況是這樣子，就是我們今年度的狀況其實虧損就是已經縮小，今年，如果以2024年單年來算已經縮小。"],["黃委員珊珊：今年縮小到多少？講數字吧！我們不要再講空話了。"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在估算到年底，預計的虧損可能是550億到600億之間。"],["黃委員珊珊：600億，所以比1,000億少了，所以明年1,000億撥補是回補以前，所以我們接下去每年還要撥補500億到600億嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在在做幾個事情，第一個，當然就是減少支出的部分，我們因為要支持國內綠能建設的發展，然後讓民間能夠買到綠電，所以台電有提出一些躉購，我們自己買的躉購的再生能源，我們希望透過電力交易市場能夠逐步地轉出去給企業，這個可以降低我們的營運成本。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，董事長，講簡單的啦！就是你不是開源，就是節流。"],["曾董事長文生：這節流，這是算節流。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是節流而已，那開源的部分呢？我們台電有什麼開源的計畫？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，台電如果要開源，只剩下少數就是非營業不動產的聯合開發，以台電來講，過去幾年，我們累積下來……"],["黃委員珊珊：不容易。"],["曾董事長文生：過去3年，其實台電大概……"],["黃委員珊珊：是法令的限制，還是你沒有辦法做，還是法規上面就做不到？我們講資產活化，任何公家機關都一樣，法規有沒有限制，沒有限制的話，你能不能夠有資產活化的機會？我只關心未來，臺灣的政府如果還要繼續每年撥補500到600億，我們有多少的時間可以去消化這些虧損？否則你是不是又要漲電價？我現在只關心的是你500億到600億，你多久之後又要漲電價？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告幾個事情，第一個事情是我們資產活化的部分，過去2022、2023這幾年，累積起來大概一年90億。"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在看到的是你們有在努力啦！但是效益很低，也很少。"],["曾董事長文生：我們非營業的空間其實沒那麼多啦！但是一年大概折現起來，算起來一年的營收也有八、九十億，包括我們海外的投資等等。"],["黃委員珊珊：八、九十億跟五、六百億還是差很多啊！所以次長，我的立場很簡單，第一，這填補以前的，但是我們要關心的是你未來的計畫，未來有多少可能可以去填補，昨天董事長也跟我說，現在工業用電的幾乎大概價差已經很低了，跟成本差不多，大概目前台電虧損的來源主要是因為民生用電的差額，這個差額看起來你不漲電價就只能開源，對我來說，我想知道你有多少開源的計畫，你要多久不漲電價，你這樣2,000億元撥補進去，你可以撐多久？讓臺灣的人民安心，至少在民生用電上面不調漲，1年，還是2年，還是3年？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，狀況是這個樣子，就是調不調漲真的不能夠由我台電董事長講，這是第一個。"],["黃委員珊珊：盡力啦！"],["曾董事長文生：第二個，剛才您提到的，就是我們其實現在在縮短它中間的差距。"],["黃委員珊珊：差額。"],["曾董事長文生：這個的差額的縮短，其實另外一個部分就是我們剛剛講，我們希望能夠透過我們的再生能源，能夠轉出去以後，降低我們的成本，再進一步降低，另外是業外收益，不過，我還是要說，以台電現在的狀況，我們一年要創造額外的500億盈餘……"],["黃委員珊珊：很困難。"],["曾董事長文生：來補自己、來補貼民生，這個真的是有一定程度的困難……"],["黃委員珊珊：有困難……"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得不是那麼……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們可能未來幾年還要面對每一年台電希望來爭取撥補以補貼你們的虧損，有可能繼續發生，如果在不漲電價的狀況下，是嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得這一個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這2,000億不會是結束，這2,000億只是開始。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我其實現在沒有辦法非常肯定地跟您說這一件事，因為現在的國際燃料價格還是在戰前的大概……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！"],["曾董事長文生：1.6、1.7倍。"],["黃委員珊珊：董事長，我們討論了半天，其實就是要回到這個，目前台電的發電量跟購電量是2,400億度，但是火力發電目前的占比是高達81.9%，火力發電其實就跟國際原油價格包括國際這些燃料價格的波動影響很大，所以重點是再生能源趕不上，那接下來的未來十年，我想知道對於這些火力發電的發電量怎麼降低，從哪邊補上，看起來我們一直在問的是這個問題。如果不要影響那麼大，你的火力發電量現在勢必要往下降，才有機會講到你剛剛說的填補這個虧損，否則只要他們一打仗、只要他們一發生狀況，現在每公噸是135塊美金，疫情爆發之前大概只有80塊，所以接下來會不會漲？不知道。","因此我的意思很簡單，立法院要知道2,000億是不是結束，不是！還會繼續增加更多的撥補，還是你多久之內有可能做到，至少告訴大家在電價調漲跟撥補之間找到個平衡點你們需要多少時間？其實我需要知道的是未來，董事長，我講得很清楚，知道你們的未來，我才能知道今年這2,000億給了你們，將來是不是個無底洞，還是永遠都要用這樣的方式？所以你們大概可以給我們一個具體的說明跟對於這些的承諾，不管是不是承諾好了，至少你有一些具體的作法，是吧？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，關於這個部分，當然我們的財務改善計畫現在都在擬，其實它就這幾塊……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，不是賺錢就是節省嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：對，它第一個參數是電價，第二個參數是不同發電類別的成本，那你怎麼樣……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以董事長，我需要的是……"],["曾董事長文生：成本比較高的……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果你要再爭取這筆預算到明年的公務預算，都要把這些東西很清楚地向立法院說明。"],["曾董事長文生：好，這個我會處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後一個小問題，就是上次講的，我們光運煤過來的滯船費是一年20億，你們跟我說今年會改善，因為倉庫弄好了，但是還要到4億，我想問你，接下來明年呢？後年呢？"],["曾董事長文生：我們明年……"],["黃委員珊珊：你可以做到比4億更少，還是要到4億？一年4億還是很多錢啊！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，那個船期會有一些參差，如果提早卸會有快卸的收入，晚的話就會有滯船費，我們明年一定打平。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望打平，這是你的承諾，如果明年還有這筆再被審計找出來，那就是董事長自己要負責任喔！"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能再有什麼因為沒有辦法卸貨而放在船上，花20億，我們撥補才1,000億，就有20億拿來浪費掉了，好嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：是，明年如果沒做到，董事長負責。"],["黃委員珊珊：今年的4億，明年是零，我們希望董事長說到做到。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝珊珊委員。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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到齊了人家另外一個以前的委員陳嘉華都說合約已經到齊啦"},{"start":350.846,"end":354.474,"text":"那個合約要到明年才會到期明年才會到期"},{"start":355.117,"end":355.757,"text":"報告委員 這個違約的話經濟部要賠償這個錢"},{"start":384.997,"end":405.363,"text":"陪葬陪葬這些你推給立法院的陪葬什麼錢推給立法院呢是是謝謝委員知道不是如果我們做了你們不執行那立法院幹什麼立法院可以關掉了立法院可以關掉了你這個引起憲政上的危機喔你等於替卓榮泰又來一個"},{"start":406.769,"end":408.389,"text":"媒體聯合報這麼大篇你準備怎麼做告訴我"},{"start":433.362,"end":460.063,"text":"什麼?依照合約處理啦我們立法院不要管喔我們會依照立法院的決議然後依照合約的程序來處理聽不懂啦立法院決議叫你停啦立法院決議叫你停啦合約有合約處理的一個步驟啦我們要依照合約的步驟來處理合約比較重要還是立法院決議比較重要?決議我們就是遵照立法院的決議然後再來處理合約的部分"},{"start":461.125,"end":478.732,"text":"河岳怎麼處理你問我你告訴我河岳他有一個處理的程序阿現在我們還在走這個程序但是我們就是遵照立法院的決議我現在拿到的文這是聯合報那邊給我的他是說"},{"start":480.052,"end":507.369,"text":"你們就是叫他要蓋然後向中央政府申請向這個環境部申請結果都被打回去了報告委員我想很多的事情是不是我們直接跟你報告因為透過媒體也許這裡面有失分的部分啦一個禮拜你來給我報告好不好第二件等一下等一下那我把這個問題講完喔剛才我在財務會那邊審查你的追加一千億台電的預算不長啊"},{"start":508.806,"end":515.879,"text":"我原來阿老實講我是中間偏支持阿可是上一次問你那句話我就不支持了"},{"start":516.516,"end":543.996,"text":"你居然跟我說 我問你說 如果一千億沒有給你呢 增資 你說就舉債 喔 多大聲的舉債 你說很有錢的舉債就好結果我還要查了一下 你們的台電的負債1.6兆喔 這個要付利息的喔另外 利息不算的2.5兆 總共4點多兆的負債資本額五千多億 累計虧損四千多億 每年獲得利息是兩百多億"},{"start":545.217,"end":564.551,"text":"你再借一千億 我問過財政部 你們借一千億 董事長可以講一千億利息多少 你告訴我 利息多少 你知道嗎 補償你才知道一千億的利息多少 看我的利率多少 台電嘛台電也可以從利率上面去寫幾%嘛 你跟我講幾% 差不多二三十億塊"},{"start":569.242,"end":583.175,"text":"財政部長跟我講啦 平均1.5% 你們大概1.4% 所以只有14億你想喔 大家各位 各位偉大的台灣人民聽喔財政 台電要1000億 私塾無名 他沒有窮盡一切茫茫之力"},{"start":588.88,"end":589.08,"text":"發言委員：賴士葆"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":636,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時53分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。你進入公部門已經一段時間了，你原來是大老闆出身的，你對立法院的態度怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道、不太明白委員的垂詢是什麼意思。"],["賴委員士葆：我的意思是，立法院的決議，你要不要遵守？因為我們代表人民。立法院的決議，你要不要遵守？"],["郭部長智輝：立法院的決議，我要不要遵守？"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["郭部長智輝：法令規定我要遵守，我就會遵守。"],["賴委員士葆：法律規定當然要遵守，怎麼不要遵守？不然我們做一大堆決議做假的啊？我現在就告訴你一件事情，立法院在4月30號通過要求彰濱工業區停建晶鼎焚化爐的決議案，這個你知道吧？你知道這件事吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：結果你們在10月25號居然發文給那些廠商，簡單來講，就是你們不喜歡這個決議，你們要廠商提出一個要繼續蓋的文，然後文送彰化縣政府、文送環境部，也就是說你們卸責，因為你們不願意跟立法院對撞，你們就說可以繼續進行。我們已經三讀通過，立法院主決議在院會三讀通過，我相信那天你可能也在，通過了，結果你們的產發署產業園區管理局居然發文給廠商，文都在這裡，白話文講的就是不要理立法院，他們就繼續蓋，但是不要跟你們申請，你們甩鍋給環境部，所以你們這裡有環境部跟彰化縣政府。你看右邊這個文，環境部說了：尚難適用興建焚化爐申請適用特種建築作業要點。你們甩給環境部，環境部不接，說這是你的事情，丟臉丟死了，部長，這個你可能都不知道，你們產發署長要換人了，產發署長要不要講一講，你怎麼發這個文？你怎麼發這個文？這個文就擺明了跟立法院的決議對幹耶！現在立法院跟行政院的關係已經夠緊張了，結果你經濟部帶頭起來，我們4月30號做了一個決議。這個是聯合報昨天出來很大篇的消息，而且把彰化都弄出來了。","我們再來看，彰化已經有9座焚化爐，而且林佳龍承諾不會再興建，鄭文燦也承諾不會再興建，那時候的林佳龍是總統府秘書長，那時候的鄭文燦是行政院副院長。兩大長官都承諾在彰化不要再蓋焚化爐，結果你們的文出來了，這是經濟部產業發展署科學園區管理局所發出來的。你看，底下就寫「並未載明由本局審查，顯然解讀有異」，簡單來講，就是立法院的決議像pass 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的話我們可能國家賠償法裡面的相關規定就是因為這個公務人員涉及不法的行為就可以申請國賠他的依據就會非常的明顯"},{"start":276.71,"end":296.039,"text":"所以我的意思說可不可以未來我們對於這個霸凌事件或什麼供應涉及吸毒或有其他相關的一些賭博不法的行徑我們在這個相關的法規裡面去做出相關的規定要這個依照考試法或者依照什麼樣的法令可以做出懲處"},{"start":298.58,"end":325.13,"text":"我們會把這個剛剛委員所提的這些意見呢納入我們這個安慰辦法跟保障法的修法的裡面讓它可以更明確那另外有關於考積法的部分請事部長確實我們也有擬議我們本來考積法有一個修正的擬議就是把性騷啦或者是霸凌啦或者是包括酒駕這一類呢我想我們政府宣誓不容忍的一個行為會列本來就要列入考試法的那個專案考試"},{"start":325.35,"end":326.691,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":354.445,"end":376.101,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":376.221,"end":402.501,"text":"外界還有不同的想法所以還要繼續討論之後所以剛剛我想因為這一次我們也想在思考說是單獨先抽離呢是這個部分單獨先抽出來單獨送法先抽出來單獨送法先包含了這個性騷、霸凌、吸毒、酒駕就不要跟行為面的管理啦我們行為面的管理這部分先送到立法院來審議啦我覺得這幾個沒有處理的話不行啦另外我想再請教就是說我們"},{"start":403.582,"end":429.942,"text":"賴清哲總統他在擔任行政院長的時候在2019年的6月5號他在台大有一場演講他有一場演講他當行政院長的時候他有一場演講不是做總統的時候當行政院長的時候他說年金改革不能不可能回復到從前但如果有受到衝擊的話有受到衝擊的問題的時候必要的時候就應該做些調整"},{"start":431.223,"end":438.909,"text":"檢查院提出調查報告要求內政部、警政署、人事總署徹底檢討並謀求散策。行政院提出調查報告要求內政部、警政署、人事總署徹底檢討並謀求散策。行政院提出調查報告"},{"start":459.926,"end":471.271,"text":"今年3月20日也發函立法院檢証警察人員年金制度檢討的續處情形以及軍公教人員年金制度檢討資訊公開的事宜。"},{"start":478.954,"end":489.902,"text":"所以你是否贊成說警察人員以及消防人員以及為勞職務的人員能夠另外特別訂定退休的所得替代率?"},{"start":493.023,"end":510.995,"text":"這個議題的確需要比較謹慎,因為所有公務員都用同樣的費率跟同樣的所得替代率。如果有一部分人用同樣的費率但是用更高的所得替代率的話,那我們要考慮的比較是其他人員的公平性的問題。"},{"start":512.056,"end":513.657,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":527.907,"end":543.645,"text":"因為他的值等值級的制度跟一般公務員又有所不同,所以他的本縫會比較高,他會反映在他的退休金當中。"},{"start":543.865,"end":559.326,"text":"獎項"},{"start":560.221,"end":564.923,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":586.989,"end":588.511,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":607,"end":622.381,"text":"難道他們不應該得到他們退休後應該有的生活保障嗎?或者我們的老師回答委員剛剛講到調整那個部分所以在上一次年金改革修法的時候其實立法院當然各種意見那雖然所得替代率逐年調降10年"},{"start":623.582,"end":643.211,"text":"但是也因此有一些配套機制就包含年金的這個給付每至少4年要做一次檢討或者是將消費者物價指數超過5%的時候要做相對應的處理所以因此年改上路雖然才幾年但是有調整了兩次一次是2%一次是今年4%所以就是說根據物價指數的這個上漲"},{"start":645.472,"end":649.433,"text":"稅務基金收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":668.34,"end":674.749,"text":"我希望這個政府還是要去多多考量他們的年金改革之後造成他們的巨大的一個影響"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時45分）謝謝主席。主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：好，我們請秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：林委員早。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長早。我接續剛才羅智強委員的質詢，對於勞動部發生的霸凌事件，當然我們看到很多的面向，就是對於公務人員的保障，依照現行的不管是公務人員保障法或者相關考績法的規定，似乎還有很多的缺失。我先就教秘書長，如果這件事情發生，依照目前的公務人員保障法，有什麼樣的規定可以保護我們相關的公務人員以後不再受霸凌？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，其實當認真檢查起來，保障法是比較原則性的規定，如果從寬解釋也是有含納這樣的概念。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["劉秘書長建忻：不過目前人總是有一個指引，作為大家處理個案的機制。這個部分牽涉到的相關法規，是不是請蔡主委來做說明？"],["林委員思銘：好，來。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，目前整個有關於霸凌事件的處理，根據我們的保障法及安衛辦法，因為人總是現場管理的機關，而且能就近馬上發現問題，所以他們有一些指引，一旦有發現霸凌事件發生，當事人向機關申訴的時候，他們就會進行相關的調查，如果機關有做出事實的認定，當事人雙方兩造也都覺得是公平、客觀的調查，機關就會依據調查的結果，對於被申訴人進行他應有的一些懲處，或者是職務上的調查；如果不符的話……"],["林委員思銘：好，OK。主委，現在我的問題點是，剛剛你提了很多，如果發生這種事件如何來申訴的指引，即公務人員怎麼樣向他的上級長官去做申訴，有相關的指引出來嘛，這邊有相關的指引嘛？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，有。"],["林委員思銘：OK。但我的問題是霸凌有沒有入法？在公務人員保障法裡面，對於霸凌這個事情，因為霸凌其實是一個法律概念，它也是一個很不確定的概念，到底什麼樣子叫作霸凌？可能要有很多司法實務的審判才能夠形成它的案例啦！"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["林委員思銘：但是基本上，我們認為對於霸凌這個事件，因為發生這件事情之後，大家才驚覺到公務人員的保障不足，對於他在職場、公務人員在他的工作環境裡面受到霸凌，不管是什麼樣的類型，他受到了霸凌，我們如何來保障他，即他如果受到霸凌，在他受到霸凌時要如何保障他未來不再受到這方面的傷害、繼續容任它發生，以及要如何來保護他，例如剛才講到國家賠償的問題，剛才是哪一位？是考選部長嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：施部長。"],["林委員思銘：可不可以申請國家賠償？如果今天霸凌事件發生，可不可以申請國賠？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：可以的，但是要由機關幫他提出。"],["林委員思銘：依據什麼？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：就是他……"],["林委員思銘：是依照……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：就依照國家賠償法裡面有一些要件。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！所以變成你是依照國家賠償法相關的規定，我現在的意思是公務員不法執行職務，去霸凌人家，這個是不是屬於不法執行職務啊？這可能會有一些爭議，但我的意思是，如果你在公務人員保障法或者考績法裡面有相關的懲處規定，公務人員涉及霸凌的行為，你們就會做相關的懲處，而國家賠償法裡面的相關規定，就是公務人員涉及不法的行為就可以申請國賠，其依據就會非常地明顯。所以我的意思是可不可以未來對於霸凌事件或公務人員涉及吸毒或有其他相關的賭博、不法行徑，在相關的法規裡面訂定相關的規定，依照考績法或者依照什麼樣的法令就可以做出懲處。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：我們會把剛剛委員所提的這些意見納入安衛辦法和保障法的修法裡面，讓它可以更明確。","另外，有關於考績法的部分，請施部長。"],["林委員思銘：好。"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，確實我們也有擬議，本來考績法有一個修正的擬議，就是把性騷或是霸凌，也包括酒駕這類行為，也就是我們政府宣示不容忍的行為本來就有要列入考績法的專案考績，或者是平時考核可以列丁等，或者一次兩大過免職的一些條件，因為這是國人所重視的，即使現在沒有明文的文字，其他的文字也是可以處理，不過我們認為還是可以把它修得更好。"],["林委員思銘：是，部長，我的意思是說，你要把它入法啦！因為入法才比較有依據。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["林委員思銘：如果依照相關的指引，真的有這種比如性騷擾、霸凌事件發生，當他要申請國賠才有依據啊！"],["施部長能傑：對，是。"],["林委員思銘：為什麼到現在……因為我看昨天王鴻薇委員質詢院長被提名人，好像考試院2月就已經有相關的提案了。"],["施部長能傑：確實我們有把一個修正草案送到考試院，不過因為那是在考績法，考績法有更複雜的修法條文，有非常非常多，外界還有一些不同的想法，所以還在繼續討論中。因為這一次我們也在思考是不是單獨先抽離，這個部分單獨先抽出來……"],["林委員思銘：對，先把它抽出來嘛！儘速地把這部分先……"],["施部長能傑：單獨送法這樣子。"],["林委員思銘：包含性騷、霸凌、吸毒、酒駕這幾個部分，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：就比較行為面的管理，行為面的管理這部分。"],["林委員思銘：先送到立法院來審議啦！"],["施部長能傑：好，我們會努力來做這件事。"],["林委員思銘：否則我覺得這幾個部分沒有處理的話不行啦！"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["林委員思銘：另外，我想再請教，賴清德總統在擔任行政院長的時候，2019年6月5日他在臺大有一場演講，他當行政院長的時候有一場演講，不是做總統的時候，是當行政院長的時候，他說年金改革不可能回復到從前，但如果有受到衝擊，必要的時候就應該做些調整。但是我們現在看到一個問題點，就是警消現在發生緩退，新陳代謝很緩慢，基層員警出現警消老化、警力斷層這個問題點，監察院在108年就提出調查報告，要求內政部、警政署、人事總處澈底檢討，並謀求善策。行政院在今年的3月20日也發函立法院，檢送警察人員年金制度檢討續處情形及軍公教人員年金制度檢討資訊公開事宜，所以我在這邊要請問秘書長，你是否贊成警察人員、消防人員以及危勞職務人員能夠另外特別訂定退休的所得替代率？"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實這個議題的確需要比較謹慎，因為所有公務員都用同樣的費率和同樣的所得替代率，如果有一部分人用同樣的費率，但是用更高的所得替代率的話，我們要考慮的比較是其他人員的公平性問題。","第二個，我想大家都很關心警消在在職跟退休之後的經濟所得，以實際領取的數字來看，警消同仁在職的薪資其實高於一般公務員，因為他的薪資計算，他的職等、職級的制度與一般公務員又有所不同，所以他的本俸會比較高，這會反映在他的退休金當中。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，其實現在大家對於年金改革，認為所有的公務人員不管是警消、軍公教的年金改革替代率，因為隨著近年來物價一直上漲，你把他年金砍了之後，他們未來晚年的生活會滿悽慘的，所以一直希望能砍到一定的程度，不要一直砍、一直砍，因此我們才會立法，修訂從113年，對於相關的公教人員也好、警消人員也好，不要再去砍他的所得替代率了，目前這個法案當然還沒有通過。只是我的意思是說，既然過去政府、現在的賴總統有這樣的表示，對於有必要的時候，應該予以適度地調整……"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，這個就……"],["林委員思銘：所以我才要請教秘書長，如果一直從這種角度去看所有的公務人員會一體適用，那對於我們一直強調的這種從事危險工作的警察也好，消防人員也好，難道他們不應該得到他們退休後應有的生活保障嗎？或者我們的老師。"],["劉秘書長建忻：回答委員剛剛講到調整的部分，在上一次年金改革修法的時候，其實立法院當然有各種意見，雖然所得替代率逐年調降10年，可是也因此有一些配套機制，包含年金給付至少每4年要做一次檢討，或者是當消費者物價指數超過5%的時候要做相對應的處理，所以年改上路雖然才幾年，但是有調整了兩次，一次是2%，一次是今年的4%，也就是說，根據物價指數的上漲，年改會有相對應的給付金額的調整，這個也是當時在機制當中大家很智慧地把它放進去的一個部分。"],["林委員思銘：是，秘書長，我想時間也差不多，但是我還是衷心的建議，對於這些警消還有公教人員，他們現在退休後的生活保障真的是不足啦！我希望政府還是要多多考量年金改革之後對他們造成的巨大影響，以上，謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員的質詢，秘書長、部長請回。","我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：請同仁及備詢的首長就座，現在繼續開會。","接續邀請鄭天財委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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洋委員會海"},{"start":193.974,"end":195.516,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":216.658,"end":230.927,"text":"海委員會在做的事情是把文本走在前面﹐把對海洋的愛走在前面﹐而不是硬把教育塞在前面﹐所以我自己買了那本書﹐我也非常非常的感動﹐就算它是公佈門﹐不好意思﹐我們應該要﹐不用不用﹐我自己會買書﹐主委﹐我已經有書了﹐主委我要順便鼓勵海洋會做一件事情﹐我非常感動﹐我們辦公室在教育部的特教議題上﹐持續沒有間斷過關心﹐我們甚至提倡了適應體育﹐"},{"start":242.514,"end":263.288,"text":"主委您在今年海洋平權的活動上你做了一件事情有愛就無愛你說海洋無障礙中長程計畫要擴大補助全國地方政府逐步改善全國海洋的無障礙基礎設施主委我要告訴你你走在對的路上你說是一個老麻的媽媽給了你這個靈感我要告訴主委未來我們運動部成立之後會有私營體育司我認為你們未來之間會有非常多合作他那邊做運動對好那這個部分一樣"},{"start":271.713,"end":272.153,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":295.393,"end":296.633,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海洋委員會海"},{"start":315.558,"end":332.607,"text":"沒有媒宣的話,我們錯的事情就事不公辦。所以我想喔,我本來今天是不應該來發言,我不是內政委員,但是我早上聽到那個真的太生氣了。非常謝謝委員來鼓勵我,非常謝謝。所以我想從繪本、讀本,還有您所做的有愛、無愛,跟後續這一點算的活動,想要告訴所有人,我們海委會在走在對的路上。謝謝委員,謝謝委員。好,謝謝主委,謝謝主席,謝謝。好,楊瓊怡、楊瓊怡、楊瓊怡、楊瓊怡,我們不在正題內,正題內,正題內小委員,"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1053,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時52分）謝謝主席，有請管主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委早安。你有看過這本書嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們出的繪本。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我當時收到這個繪本的時候，我非常驚訝，我過去在民間做繪本做了二十多年，我想要告訴主委這本書好在哪裡，我也想要告訴早上來質疑您關於媒宣預算的麥玉珍委員，我不知道他是不懂繪本，還是不懂預算，還是他不懂媒宣的意義。這本書很棒，我知道海委會在做這個書的時候，很想要承擔海洋教育的功能，我猜想就過往的很多長官可能會認為要把這些知識放在書的正文裡面，但是主委我幫您複習一下記憶，你們把主畫面留給故事，留給非常可愛的畫面，甚且你們沒有為了討好小孩，把它畫得過分地可愛，也沒有為了討好老師跟家長，硬把所有知識塞在裡面，也就是說，我猜想當時這個標案團隊，他們在想的是，他們真的想要讓小孩拿起這本書是開心的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：會喜愛它。"],["陳委員培瑜：是喜歡的，那至於你們大人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員是專家。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們那些大人好在意的教育、翻譯、文本這些東西，我們就放在後面，孩子有興趣了，他就會去翻，所以我要給這本書非常高度的評價。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：我通常對於公部門的繪本要求都更嚴格，因為它承擔了教育意義。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為委員推動親子閱讀……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以主委，我想要告訴你這樣的事要繼續做，因為……"],["管主任委員碧玲：得到委員的肯定，我們很驕傲，因為委員是專業。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒有、沒有，謝謝主委，你早上說那句話我非常感動，你說海洋不會說話，我們要來幫它說……"],["管主任委員碧玲：它沒有聲音，我們要幫它說。"],["陳委員培瑜：我也想跟主委、跟各位委員分享一個概念，尤其是早上的麥玉珍委員。我早年在花蓮念書的時候，我本來就想要去黑潮當志工，然後做我的研究題目，但是我的老師跟我說不行，我們研究室已經太多人去黑潮，所以最好不要去黑潮這樣，但是我始終熱愛海洋。有一年我帶我的孩子想要上船去賞鯨，而且是想要早上4點半那一班，我記得帶我們賞鯨的是廖鴻基老師，廖鴻基老師對著台下凌晨3、4點眼睛都還沒有張開的孩子說：等一下我們去海洋不是賞鯨，我們是跑去人家家，可是我們要去人家家，我們沒有先打電話給人家，我們沒有先寫信給人家，所以人家不一定會在家，對不對？小孩就說：對。所以他就告訴孩子說：等一下海上的主人他們如果不在家，不是他們的錯，是我們沒有先寫信給人家……"],["管主任委員碧玲：好棒。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是海洋不會說話，海洋沒有辦法收信，所以孩子們有機會，我們下次再來。廖老師說的這一段話，我的孩子一輩子都不會忘記，所以我想要拜託主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，那我剛好能不能接續委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：我有接續另外一本書，我要拜託主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：舉廖老師的例子。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個例子太好了，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們今年頒了海洋文化獎……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，我知道。"],["管主任委員碧玲：尊崇廖老師的貢獻，可是我們沒有媒宣費用的結果……"],["陳委員培瑜：是的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有人知道。"],["陳委員培瑜：廖老師講得這麼美麗的話，沒有人知道。"],["管主任委員碧玲：廖老師他的……對，他還有很多非常非常美好的論述……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯，所以主委繼續努力，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：可是我們都沒有辦法讓國人分享。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們支持，我們絕對支持。另外，海委會今年還做了一本很棒的書，有了繪本之外，你們還做了「我的海洋DNA」，主筆是古碧玲主編，他長年非常多文字非常動人，我也要說這本書吸引的是9歲到18歲的青少年……"],["管主任委員碧玲：科普。"],["陳委員培瑜：我從繪本到剛剛那個讀本，我覺得你們做的事情完全都是對的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且我再說一次，海委會在做的事情是把文本走在前面，把海、對海洋的愛走在前面，而不是硬把教育塞在前面，所以我自己買了那本書，我也非常非常感動，就算它是公部門……"],["管主任委員碧玲：啊！不好意思，我們應該要請委員指導，我們應該要送委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：不用、不用，我自己會買書，主委，我不是在跟你要書，我已經有書了。主委，我要順便鼓勵海委會做一件事情，我非常感動，我們辦公室在教育部的特教議題上持續沒有間斷過關心，我們甚至提倡了適應體育。主委，您在今年海洋評選的活動上做了一件事情，有愛就無礙，你說海洋無障礙中長程計畫要擴大補助全國地方政府逐步改善全國海洋的無障礙基礎設施，主委我要告訴你，你走在對的路上……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我在推。"],["陳委員培瑜：你說是一個腦麻的媽媽給了你這個靈感，我要告訴主委，未來我們運動部成立之後會有適應體育司，我認為你們未來之間會有非常多合作。"],["管主任委員碧玲：在那邊做運動。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，這個部分一樣要讓更多的國人知道。最後一件事情，我要再次強調，民進黨執政沒有不關心藍色執政的縣市，我看到海委會你們大半年的預算，把很多活動都拉到花蓮縣去舉辦，我身為花蓮鄉親，我兩個孩子的身分證字號都是U開頭，我要感謝……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們非常多的活動……"],["陳委員培瑜：海委會做這件事情。"],["管主任委員碧玲：國際研討會還有國海院……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，都拉去了，整個下半年的活動……"],["管主任委員碧玲：都去了，海保署也去了，會本部也去了，海巡署也去了……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，而這些事情難道不需要更多的社會溝通、社會討論，讓更多人知道我們都在做這些對的事情？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，其實我們這樣做，如果有媒宣出去，大家就會想要去花蓮。"],["陳委員培瑜：是的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們把外國的學者專家都拉去那裡開國際研討會了，還有什麼好害怕？所以沒有媒宣的話……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以我想……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們做的事情就事倍功半……"],["陳委員培瑜：我本來今天是不應該來發言，我不是內政委員會……"],["管主任委員碧玲：非常謝謝委員來鼓勵我們。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我早上聽到那個真的太生氣了，所以我想要從繪本、讀本，還有您所做的有愛無礙跟後續這一連串的活動，想要告訴所有人，我們海委會走在對的路上。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主委、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強，羅智強委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","廖先翔、廖先翔、廖先翔，廖先翔委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","翁曉玲、翁曉玲，翁曉玲委員不在。","許宇甄、許宇甄、許宇甄，許宇甄委員不在。","伍麗華、伍麗華、伍麗華，伍麗華委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之，葉委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","吳琪銘、吳琪銘，吳琪銘委員不在。","好，都沒了，我們休息2分鐘，大家上個洗手間。等一下，我先宣告一下，跟委員會報告：登記發言委員除不在場之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束，委員所提書面質詢……我不知道到時候有沒有，沒有人提？好，未及答復部分請相關單位一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。","好，我們休息2分鐘。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時27分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-12","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","吳琪銘","羅智強","丁學忠","許宇甄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政\n府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及\n所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬\n單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金─ 海洋污染防治基金","agenda_id":"11310602_00001"}}},{"id":"157500","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157500","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a2791acdac1268dafbebea231f805397be54b9bd157483afa6812948a7a6596355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:43:40 - 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報告,事辦的這個年度當然就照那個事辦計劃執行了。但是除此以外,我想請問為什麼我們不用國際上已經成熟的無人機?我們有申請,但是去年行政院最後是合併說讓國防部先走。那明年度的案子現在正在行表。所以我們就是這樣,我們泰國的國家對。"},{"start":251.087,"end":252.367,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":273.132,"end":297.228,"text":"對 所以你認同嘛我們希望盡快看到因為無人機的執法效率高執法成本低又可以彌補你海岸巡防人力的不足有必要對 所以這一塊本席希望能夠盡快謝謝委員支持是我們的力量 謝謝那這點我也要跟昭緯反映我們這樣詢問今天詢答完我都沒辦法再提案了提案提早結束這個是有一點護航護航的太誇張了隨時給我們督促好不好隨時給我們督促好 那再來"},{"start":302.631,"end":304.572,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海洋保育法。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋保育法。"},{"start":326.601,"end":342.487,"text":"二月15日行政院通過草案。今年的7月13日三讀通過。那今年的7月31日我們已經公佈可是行政院一直沒有施行剛剛主委講執法遙遙無期"},{"start":344.228,"end":363.752,"text":"這個是很有問題的有效率了跟委員報告我們已經有三個執法在公告了你時間你什麼時候海洋保育法可以上路我們希望半年有第一階段我們分兩階段半年有第一階段然後一定要在一年之內全部讓所以還要再一年本席在這裡做結論總共一年是在過去過去國民黨執政的時候"},{"start":372.56,"end":392.531,"text":"我們母法在修的過程執法也都同步準備好母法一通過執法依據母法有該微調該修正的馬上修正所以母法通過之後應該執法也是很快速就可以通過沒有像這種還要一年的然後我們除了海洋保育法我們看到民進黨執政"},{"start":394.352,"end":399.256,"text":"連國土計劃法也一樣母法通過了執法還到現在都還沒完備所以這一塊我們希望海委會當然這個關主委本席對您是很肯定過去你跟我們是同事你也是非常非常積極那你現在在海委會所以這個海洋保育法"},{"start":415.046,"end":416.007,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":437.549,"end":461.954,"text":"我們海務法大修也是差不多一年才全部完。為什麼呢?因為這兩個法都有利害關係人之間的協調的問題。你到執法訂定的時候,那不就很慘了嗎?那什麼時候行政院可以頒布施行?我們希望分兩階段。第一階段半年內的話,我們希望明年初能夠有第一階段先讓我們走。"},{"start":463.354,"end":464.935,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":491.437,"end":494.323,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時43分）謝謝主席，本席有請管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：徐召委好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。主委，首先本席想跟你請教我們海巡人力的需求是不是非常多，但是員額非常不足？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有落差。"],["徐委員欣瑩：落差多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的落差，說實在的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請簡答。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過我有一個好消息……"],["徐委員欣瑩：落差多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們大概有上千人的落差。"],["徐委員欣瑩：1,272人。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，一千多人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請問這1,272人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是我們最近有一個好消息。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼好消息？請簡答。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有跟國防部協調，明年度開始義務役會支援我們。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席有看到你們在計畫裡面提到平均一年大概補100到200人，但是你們缺了1,272人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不只、不只。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那大概多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：像我們今年就送了六百多人去受訓，今年我們就招募六百七十幾個。"],["徐委員欣瑩：等於今年招募了六百七十幾個，到明年就會減半囉？現在是1,272……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會、不會！你是說缺額，是不是？"],["徐委員欣瑩：缺額。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為會有多少離退不知道，但是我們今年招募六百多個，明年我們繼續招募以外，還有義務役來幫忙。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想瞭解，這個缺額是巡防人力缺得多，還是文官缺得多？"],["管主任委員碧玲：主要是岸巡，軍職的岸巡。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然我們希望儘快補足人力，因為人少或不足，現有的人就比較吃力，我想大家都知道。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，非常的辛苦，24小時在營區。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，關於海巡的工作，我看到你們在報告裡面有提到要健全機關組設，優化工作環境，有關無人機這一塊，我們國家隊已經試辦太久了，試辦了這麼多年還一直在試辦階段，這個我們看不下去。"],["管主任委員碧玲：原因是因為本來我們去年就有提出，從今年開始的400架無人機計畫……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係！我沒有要問你，我只是告訴你……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是行政院優先……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停！我們一直試辦、一直試辦，你看人力缺乏，我們如果可以用無人機來取代監偵、執法以及救援……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員說得很對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣人力就可以減少，可是為什麼我們從106年的計畫，107年開始到108年買了20架，到後來我看到112年到114年又買了12架，你一直在試辦，現在國際上無人機非常地成熟，為什麼我們不採購？而且可以儘快讓無人機協助我們整個海岸的巡防，包括救援以及所有的偵防。誠如剛剛蘇巧慧委員講到的，其實我們如果可以用無人機偵防的話，大陸漁船怎麼進到我們的海域都可以馬上清楚瞭解，可是為什麼這麼多年了，這樣已經七、八年，你試辦要試辦到什麼時候？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，試辦的年度當然就照那個試辦計畫執行，但是除此之外……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你這樣講得「落落長」，這樣不行，我想請問為什麼我們不用國際上已經成熟的無人機？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有申請，但是去年行政院最後是核定讓國防部先走，明年度的案子我現在正在協調……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們就是這樣，我們太多的國家隊……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我還有一個計畫……"],["徐委員欣瑩：國家隊我不反對，我可以成熟的買一架、兩架開始用，然後國家隊還在試辦階段，我買個10架，我們支持國家隊，但是整個海岸的巡防不能被耽誤。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們還是有需要，所以我現在已經提了一個新的計畫，最近一直在開會當中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你認同嘛，我們希望儘快看到，因為無人機的執法效率高、執法成本低，又可以彌補海岸巡防人力的不足。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，有必要。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這一塊本席希望能夠儘快。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員支持，是我們的力量。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一點我也要跟召委反映，今天詢答完，我都沒辦法再提案了，提案提早結束，這個是有一點護航，護航得太誇張了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：隨時給我們督促，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，本席要請教你，海洋保育法是不是已經通過了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：還沒，因為我們通過的是行政院定之，所以我們現在要把子法做到一定程度的時候，現在在積極地走……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這就是重點，母法都已經在2月15日行政院通過草案，今年7月13日三讀通過，7月31日已經公布，可是行政院一直沒有施行，剛剛主委講子法遙遙無期，這個是很有問題的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會，有效率了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你給出一個時間。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們已經有3個子法在公告了、在預告了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼時候整個海洋保育法可以上路？你預計什麼時候？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們希望半年有第一階段，分兩階段，半年有第一階段，然後一定要在一年之內全部讓它上路……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以還要再一年？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會，大概總共一年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席在這裡做結論……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是半年會有第一階段。"],["徐委員欣瑩：過去國民黨執政的時候，母法在修的過程，子法也都同步準備好，母法一通過，子法依據母法有該微調、該修正的馬上修正，所以母法通過之後，應該子法也是很快速就可以通過，沒有像這種還要一年的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有，跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：除了海洋保育法，我們看到民進黨執政，連國土計畫法也一樣，母法通過了，子法到現在都還沒完備，所以這一塊我們希望海委會……管主委，本席對你是很肯定。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：過去你跟我們是同事，你也是非常非常積極，你現在在海委會，海洋保育法那時候一直催促我們要趕快通過……"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我會加快，我前天都還在開2個子法的會議。"],["徐委員欣瑩：結果我們趕快通過之後，子法這樣子遙遙無期，這點我們是不能接受的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會、不會，我知道委員很急，我也很急。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說要快，結果剛剛聽你講還要一年。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那個是總共一年內一定要全部上路。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼時候行政院會公布施行日期？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們海污法大修也是差不多一年才全部完成，為什麼呢？因為這兩個法都有利害關係人之間協調的問題，到子法訂定的時候那個「鋩角」就很深了，所以就有很多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：海洋保育法什麼時候行政院可以頒布施行？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們分兩階段，第一階段半年內的話，我們希望明年初能夠有第一階段，先讓我們走。"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後還有第二階段？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，全部完成的時候，全部有18部子法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們要講的是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：子法已經有3部公告了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們一直在催促通過我們母法，可是你們的子法動作太慢。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們算滿快的，不過我知道委員很著急，謝謝，這也是給我們的督促。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是大家很關注，既然大家這麼努力，立法院這麼努力讓母法通過，我們不希望子法一直看不到。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會加快腳步。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","我們請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-12","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","吳琪銘","羅智強","丁學忠","許宇甄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政\n府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及\n所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬\n單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金─ 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t":"我想來請教這個部分我們到底有沒有做到什麼樣的因應方式我們現在這個是現在進行式而且我們很多年輕人現在就面臨這樣的風險很多都必須要拿出贖金有的才可以回來那他們有很多也被活摘器官因為講得非常非常的驚悚"},{"start":212.717,"end":219.439,"text":"甚至在公海上面就可以馬上進行像這樣我們也應該要予以譴責在目前我們沒有看到其實這個才是我們應該要更關注的因為這是我們的國人而且都是我們的年輕人所以這個部分我想其實國安局應該要有一些因應的作為剛剛還有請警政署也一起上來主要就是這樣因為像我們現在在面對詐騙的時候有很多銀行的行員或者我們便利商店"},{"start":241.246,"end":242.627,"text":"他們要買點數的時候就是比較超出一些正常的一個情況或者要匯款的時候很多老先生老太太也要匯高額的款項出去的時候我們都會通報警察"},{"start":256.656,"end":262.681,"text":"或者會有因應的作為去勸說像這樣子反而我們現在都沒有看到比如說我們被騙到東南亞被騙到柬埔寨這樣的年輕人他們可以怎麼做我們再說有很多國家很多委員我們包括我們現在政府在關切說到哪一個國家或者到哪一些國家會有風險的時候那這些國家有沒有被列在裡面比如說我們看到很多一群一群年輕人在我們出境的"},{"start":284.958,"end":285.118,"text":"副署長"},{"start":306.862,"end":318.713,"text":"有跟被騙到國外去打工或是說去發生被騙的情形那我們在行政院頒布的打詐事件"},{"start":322.216,"end":332.108,"text":"作為是什麼?很多人就在出盡大天啊因為一般你一定買來回機票嘛可是很多都是用單程的機票就出去了所以就像我們這些防詐騙一樣你就會有很多的作為去幫忙勸說不然這樣的集團他們的手段也非常多我們的年輕人該怎麼辦?"},{"start":341.539,"end":357.43,"text":"我們平常是有分領分眾在先導那前一陣子我們有在機場就是說對於這些年輕人出國我們有特別製作那個牌子希望他們這個慎重考慮或是說出國以後牌子擺在哪裡"},{"start":358.737,"end":363.558,"text":"之前有先導那最近沒有所以這個才是現在進行式我們現在還是每天常常會接到很多家長的陳情有的哭得非常嚴重因為他們不知道自己的孩子在哪裡可是我們應該要加強的現在反而是這個部分因為這個牽涉到都是我們的國人我們的年輕人"},{"start":377.842,"end":398.942,"text":"他們現在有的還透過外交部啊索要贖金啊這確認說到底真的假的所以這個部分警政署可以在就近的時間之內可以給我們這個部分好不好因為有一些畢竟是發生在國外我們不知道應該要怎麼樣去防堵可是在國內發生的我們反而沒有讓沒有積極的作為這是不對的那什麼多少時間可以給我們"},{"start":404.136,"end":410.08,"text":"我們兩個禮拜給委員報告好謝謝把一些相關的作為你可以在詐騙都一直一直這樣宣導然後在出鏡的時候你都可以做這些勸導那像這一種的我們更應該要提高警覺減少他的發聲因為我們沒有辦法百分之百總是可是你像有一些你攔下來有一些老先生就不會被騙了他的那個一生的積蓄有些就會被保留下來我們希望"},{"start":430.151,"end":440.635,"text":"每一條生命都很重要的透過我們的關注還有我們的預防其實這個可能比其他的還重要就是政治的議題其實有時候去廣泛的討論還不如我們務實的去珍惜我們周邊每一條年輕的生命那利用一點時間再請教我們國安局副局長我想請教一下事先知不知道那個肅勤會靠過來"},{"start":459.929,"end":474.575,"text":"你知道肅琴是誰嗎?現在不是很紅?我是肅琴啊?那個...這個...彩蒙這個部分事實上是我們剛剛副指揮官有做過報告所以就是他已經在管制區內沒有關係"},{"start":476.567,"end":493.408,"text":"副局長我們今天要講的剛剛有很多委員關切那這個也有討論過了可是我們要說的是安全的問題今天他的作為你今天雖然在管制區裡面可是你看到我們這一張照片他拉的這個布條其實是很大一條欸以前清"},{"start":495.45,"end":499.914,"text":"那個金科刺秦王的時候他那個圖窮筆線他就是放在圖裡面啊你這個如果說是捲在那裡面你也不知道啊他是不是有什麼供給的一個利器你也不知道再加上管制區裡面雖然只有煙酒賣煙酒的一個商店"},{"start":513.306,"end":513.346,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":532.89,"end":535.351,"text":"為什麼要特別提出來是你應該要因應雖然你事先其實已經有做過一些可能流程然後也認為這是管制區域可是當你面對有一些不一樣的跟我們預測的不一樣的時候顯然我們的做法是不夠靈活"},{"start":550.896,"end":555.72,"text":"而且甚至是有風險的這個部分藉由這個事件我們特別提出來所以我們在這裡可能也希望說像任何東西都有可能發生任何時間點對象都有可能發生這個部分不是說我們要去檢討而已而是你在面對任何可能發生的情況尤其是現在它包括空中的攻擊或者其他的攻擊隨時都在你不要說因為一慌亂或者一高興然後就沖昏了頭連我們應該訓練有素的人"},{"start":579.577,"end":579.717,"text":"馬文君議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請副局長、警政署副署長。"],["主席：來，各位請。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：副局長好。今天大家關切「國有器官」這個影片的播放，針對可能接到恐嚇的部分，當然在臺灣，我們是不希望、而且不容許發生的，不管是活摘器官或者是恐嚇這樣的行為。因為在公共區域，除了這些以外，我們過去在捷運、高鐵，或者很多其他地點、場域，其實都曾經發生過類似這樣的恐嚇事件，如果是恐嚇，我們就好好偵辦。當然，這個部分的IP位址是來自很多不同的國家，這是我們目前掌握的，犯嫌透由VPN虛擬私人網路跳板程式寄送恐嚇電郵，所以他可能牽涉到很多的國家，這一點對我們來說，在偵查的過程當中會不會有什麼樣的困難？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，因為它跨了很多國家，所以，如果是我們友盟的國家，我們會建立一些網安協查跟駭侵跡證的查處協議，所以這會透過這些合作友方來協助；另外，我們也會根據其他數位跡證去做綜合的研判。如果是沒有這種合作的國家，的確我們要去查那個IP會有它的困難。"],["馬委員文君：那個可能是查對象，不過因為它已經有很明確的恐嚇標的，所以對於放映的地點，大家可能就要更謹慎，如果嫌犯說要放在鐵路、要放在哪裡，大家對這些區域可能就要更加謹慎地去防範，不要發生。"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們每年的預算，不管在科技偵查這個部分，尤其副局長您本身也是科技出身，對這一方面其實也是非常熟悉、在行，所以我們希望就這個部分，在很多預算編列的情況下，我們應該怎麼樣去因應或者查察，或者怎麼樣去預防，這個部分由專業的來做。"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["馬委員文君：另外，提到像這樣子活摘器官的部分，除了像影片現在播映的內容以外，其實我們更擔心的是現在進行式，因為我們常常接到非常多的陳情，很多家長都說他們的孩子先被騙出國，然後出國以後就被強押到柬埔寨這樣子一個高風險的地方。我想請教，針對這個部分，我們到底有沒有做到什麼樣的因應方式，這個是現在進行式，而且很多年輕人現在就面臨這樣的風險，很多都必須拿出贖金，有的才可以回來，他們有很多也被活摘器官，因為講得非常、非常的驚悚，甚至在公海上面就可以馬上進行，像這樣我們也應該要予以譴責，但目前我們沒有看到，其實這個才是我們應該要更關注的，因為這是我們的國人，而且都是我們的年輕人。所以這個部分，國安局應該要有一些應變的作為，剛剛還有請警政署也一起上來，主要就是這樣，因為像我們現在在面對詐騙的時候，有很多銀行行員或者便利商店，有民眾買點數超出正常情況的時候，或者很多老先生、老太太要匯高額的款項出去的時候，他們都會通報警察，或者會有因應的作為去勸說，像這樣反而我們現在都沒有看到，比如被騙到東南亞、柬埔寨的年輕人，他們可以怎麼做？很多委員包括政府在關切到哪一個國家或者到哪一些國家會有風險的時候，這些國家有沒有被列在裡面？比如我們看到一群一群的年輕人在出境大廳，都非常特別，他們都會吸引人家注意，可是我們有沒有去關切他們是不是用單程的機票出去，或者他們去的目的是什麼？有沒有人去勸說這些年輕人？目前有沒有？副署長。"],["李副署長政曉：有關被騙到國外去打工，或是發生被騙的情形，我們在行政院頒布的打詐2.0……"],["馬委員文君：簡單好不好？因為時間的關係。你現在的作為是什麼？很多人就在出境大廳，因為一般人都買來回機票，可是很多人都是用單程機票就出去了，像這些就像我們在防詐騙一樣，你就會有很多的作為去幫忙勸說，不然這樣的集團，他們的手段也非常多，我們的年輕人該怎麼辦？我們的國人該怎麼辦？"],["李副署長政曉：我們平常是有分齡、分眾在宣導，前一陣子我們有在機場，針對這些年輕人出國，特別製作牌子，希望他們慎重考慮，或是說出國以後……"],["馬委員文君：牌子擺在哪裡？"],["李副署長政曉：之前有宣導，最近沒有。"],["馬委員文君：所以這個才是現在進行式，我們現在還是每天常常會接到很多家長的陳情，有的哭得非常嚴重，因為他們不知道自己孩子在哪裡，我們現在應該要加強的反而是這個部分，因為這都牽涉到我們的國人、我們的年輕人，現在有的還透過外交部說要贖金，確認到底真的、假的，所以警政署可以在就近的時間之內給我們這個部分，好不好？因為有一些畢竟是發生在國外，我們不知道應該要怎麼樣去防堵，可是在國內發生的，我們反而沒有積極的作為，這是不對的，那多少時間可以給我們？"],["李副署長政曉：我們兩個禮拜跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝，把一些相關的作為，你可以在詐騙方面都一直宣導，然後在出境的時候，也可以做這些勸導，像這一種的我們更應該要提高警覺，減少它的發生，因為我們沒有辦法百分之百，可是有一些你攔下來，有些老先生就不會被騙了，他的一生的積蓄有些就會被保留下來，每一條生命都很重要的，透過我們的關注還有預防，其實這個可能比其他的還重要，政治的議題其實有時候去廣泛的討論，還不如我們務實的去珍惜周邊每一條年輕的生命。","利用一點時間再請教國安局副局長，請問事先知不知道素琴會靠過來，你知道素琴是誰嗎？現在不是很紅？我是素琴啦！"],["張副局長元斌：采盟的部分，事實上剛剛副指揮官有稍微做過報告，所以就是它已經在管制區內了。"],["馬委員文君：沒有關係，副局長，我們今天要講的，剛剛也有很多委員關切，這個也有討論過了，可是我們要說的是安全問題，今天它雖然在管制區裡面，可是你看這一張照片，它拉的布條其實是很大一條，以前荊軻刺秦王的時候，圖窮匕見，他就是放在圖裡面啊，如果是捲在那裡面，你也不知道裡面是不是有什麼攻擊的利器，再加上在管制區裡面，雖然只有賣菸酒的商店，可能沒有賣包什麼的，可是玻璃瓶、酒瓶其實也是一個攻擊器具，所以你讓這樣的人布條一拉出來，就把我們的隨扈、特勤人員或者選手都被擺在後面，這是很嚴重的問題。今天我們為什麼要特別提出來，是你應該要因應，雖然你事先已經模擬過一些可能的流程，然後也認為這是管制區域，可是當你面對一些情況跟預測的不一樣的時候，顯然我們的作法是不夠靈活，甚至是有風險的。這個部分，藉由這個事件，我們特別提出來，任何事情都有可能發生，任何時間點、對象都有可能發生，這個部分不是說只要去檢討而已，而是你在面對任何可能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應該把中央跟地方的職責做好一個比較重要的補助型調配責任現在也做了"},{"start":576.44,"end":597.74,"text":"所以我也必須說我反對的是現在國民黨跟民眾黨把台南當成孤兒丟到一邊去居然我們的人口數還有土地還有甚至密度都是在前面往前算結果我們今天的增加幅度是往後算"},{"start":598.701,"end":622.866,"text":"我反對這樣的一個才化法所以我覺得要把事情講清楚說明白竹記長你剛剛所講的你們應該對所有台灣人民講清楚時代背景的不同而不是讓大家好像說要給大家更多為什麼大家不要不是不是是所有的局勢都改變了謝謝"},{"start":626.36,"end":627.403,"text":"好,謝謝亭妃委員,接著請黃珊珊委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":450,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時44分）謝謝主席，請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：主計長，我想我們還是要來討論一下，因為我們是資深立委，擔任了17年，所以國民黨最會用的就是，哇！我們以前是支持財劃法，為什麼現在是反對？我想對於財劃法，把我們的財務做一個比較適當的調配，我相信沒有人會反對，今天我們反對的是不公平的財劃法，不公平的財劃法也就是中央跟地方所調配的沒有辦法符合全民共同的利益，我們反對的是這樣一個財劃法。主計長，因為你從臺南的主計單位一路到我們中央，所以你非常清楚臺南能得到中央的協助是非常非常重要的，它變成是我們重大計畫很重要的一環，尤其過去重北輕南，所有的預算大概都集中在北部，到了南部就是少之又少，我們要去推動大型的建設，包括交通或是我們生活圈道路，根本就是難上加難，所以當民進黨上任之後，我們用了很多特別預算來做協助，這其實對於各縣市來說都是及時雨，我們反對的是不公平的財劃法。","臺南土地面積占全國縣市的第7名，人口是全國縣市的第6名，人口密度是全國縣市的第11名，可是現在不論是國民黨的財劃法版本或是民眾黨的財劃法版本，我們所得到的都是倒數的，像中國國民黨的版本，我們的漲幅是全國第三低，分配金額甚至低於非六都縣市的彰化縣；以民眾黨的版本來試算，我們的漲幅是全國第四低，全國喔！我們的土地面積是全國縣市的第7名，人口是全國縣市的第6名，人口密度是全國縣市的第11名，可是整個試算版本出來之後，我們在國民黨的版本是全國漲幅第三低，民眾黨版本是全國漲幅第四低，我們怎麼能夠接受這樣的版本？我們反對的是這樣不公平的版本，而且你知道臺南未來有多少重大建設嗎？我們有捷運藍線、綠線，而且藍線的部分都已經通過可行性評估了，然後在省道改善的計畫，這是一個廊道、路網，還有智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫，還有地震前兆觀測精進計畫，這很重要，主計長知道前陣子，才前幾天而已，我們臺南的地震、餘震連續好幾次，大家嚇死了！所以這個地震前兆觀測精進計畫重不重要？很重要，因為現在大家都說，可能下次的大地震會發生在南部，也有可能發生在臺南，所以這個地震前兆觀測精進計畫極度重要。還有公路公共運輸永續及交通平權計畫，這對於臺南來講，都是未來極盡重要，可是國民黨的財劃法、民眾黨的財劃法，對於臺南來講，根本就是把臺南當孤兒，不要說我今天是立委，就算我是臺南市民的一份子，每個人絕對都是反對，我們如果沒有站在市民的角度極力反對的話，我們回去是要怎麼交代？他們會說，我們連自己的家都顧不好，連自己的財政都顧不好，我們憑什麼當立委？你知道這是很嚴重的。","所以我們很遺憾地說，現在國民黨到處用網路說，陳亭妃你當時當書記長的時候也是支持財劃法。沒錯！我沒有反對過，我也認為好的財政劃分，中央、地方做一個好的調配，讓中央可以有權去支應所有的串聯性，像現在用水計畫有一個叫珍珠串計畫，那是在西部整個大串聯；我們有一個智慧型AI，也是要整個串聯，這個都要中央啊！每個地方如果你都分下去了，中央要怎麼做一個全國性的計畫？它就沒有武器可以做全國性的計畫，如果各縣市的想法又沒有那麼先進，沒有跟著時代潮流在走、世界潮流在走，那卡住了某一個縣市，我們怎麼做全國的串聯？所以我們不能只有好像擺在地方要怎麼做，我們應該從中央的位階拉高，全國性的串聯計畫，你要給它武器，有部分給地方，大家好好來講，為什麼要用這種方式呢？而且是汙衊式的、抹黑式的，這是極盡不公平的。所以主計長，你認為現在這個僵局要怎麼解決？這個僵局，站在你對整個財政、主計非常專業的角度，你認為這個現在要怎麼去解？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為事實上我本身是從臺南來，當初我之所以主張修財劃法，是因為我連薪水都發不出來，我的舉債額度達到92.36，那時候我是主張要修財劃法，但是近年來都已經改善了，以我們現在來講，以前有十幾個縣市都是短絀，現在都是賸餘，以前總共合計是短絀五百多億，現在賸餘648億，現行的部分我們有透過一般縣市補助來做調節盈虛的作用，所以我為什麼會主張目前的是最好的，不用修改，就是因為以目前來做挹注，這樣的方式是最妥適的。"],["陳委員亭妃：主計長，你剛剛講到一個重點，就是每一個時代背景的不同。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：當時候我們提要修財劃法是因為很多縣市都面臨短絀，根本錢，也就是它的薪水，都發不出來，所以當時候的時代背景是這個樣子，但是當民進黨上任之後，我們利用一般縣市的補助款，然後去做調和。"],["陳主計長淑姿：調節盈虛。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後把所有縣市短絀的狀況完全改變，現在都有盈餘啊！不是短絀啊！甚至還透過專案補助的部分去協助各縣市去做建設，這才是重點啊！可是現在在野黨不講這一塊，把這一塊全部拿掉，然後就說你們以前都支持，現在反對，所以這是重點，我們當時支持的時候是因為很多的縣市根本就發不出他們的薪水，公務人員薪水發不出來多嚴重啊！可是我們整合完了之後，沒有這個問題，而且我們當時候也是認為，應該把中央跟地方的職責做好一個比較重要的補助型調配責任，現在也做了，所以我也必須說我反對的是現在國民黨跟民眾黨把臺南當成孤兒，丟到一邊去，居然我們的人口數還有土地，還有甚至密度，都是在前面往前算，結果我們今天的增加幅度是往後算，我反對這樣的一個財劃法，所以我覺得要把事情講清楚、說明白，主計長，你剛剛所講的，你們應該對所有臺灣人民講清楚，時代背景的不同，而不是讓大家好像說，要給大家更多，為什麼大家不要，不是，不是！是所有的局勢都改變了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝亭妃委員。","接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。","我們等黃珊珊委員質詢完，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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因為電視 電視上審議委員會兩次嘛 對不對每一次的時候的一個 有調漲跟那一次的會議是調漲什麼 或者說沒有調漲 我記得是沒有 有一次沒有調漲嘛好 所以這個部分 這個 因為事實上 叫那個 組計長 還有"},{"start":313.28,"end":338.742,"text":"市長都是事務官出身跟我一樣事務官出身我們在整個這個事務官還是要給政務官做決策的時候要有相當的這一個資訊提供尤其是本來向經濟部的部長現在的部長"},{"start":341.719,"end":367.23,"text":"包括國發會的主委本來一開始對核四有一個期待不只是期待我們以為都要啟動了但是現在又退收了所以這個資訊要提供尤其是作為一個常務次長作為一個主計長我們要提供什麼呢"},{"start":368.43,"end":380.242,"text":"因為他們兩個國防會主委跟經濟部的部長都是來自企業界第一個核四 核四花幾千億"},{"start":382.536,"end":407.806,"text":"市長,花了幾千億?4800億。蓋核四?4800億。太久了,忘記了。4800億。還有後面的喔,好好算喔。海淀提供核四,花了幾千億。然後現在繼續還要花錢啊,因為你還是要管理啊,要維護啊。"},{"start":413.498,"end":431.588,"text":"這個相關的這些力能力電到底經濟部還有包括北大部會編了多少的為了力能所編的預算編的預算很多然後台電還要跟他買對不對台電還要跟他買"},{"start":435.219,"end":460.803,"text":"到底將總共多少?沒有一個數字、數據提供給我也提供給部長可以嗎?也提供給這個主計長在整個政策評估的時候才有一個方向真的是不得了啊這個錢真的是不得了"},{"start":463.396,"end":473.912,"text":"所以這個部分是這樣的一個整個政策的一個評估才會有一個然後很重要的就是要請次長你來建議這個部長"},{"start":476.82,"end":477.2,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":698,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時48分）主席、各位委員，有請主計長及經濟部次長。"],["主席：請主計長及次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長，這次追加預算主要的理由是說要依預算法第七十九條第三款所辦事業因重大事故經費超過法定預算，這個理由是什麼？「所辦事業因重大事故」條文是依據這個，按照主計總處報告是依這個，請問什麼樣的事業因重大事故？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這個部分主要是涉及民生用電，是一個影響民生很重大的事件，因為111年到113年這當中，光是民生用電就已經虧損了2,800億左右，然後包括產業用電也將近4,000億，累積將近6,800億，所以必須要做整個的撥補，讓營運能夠持續。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請教經濟部次長，因為這個引用的是預算法第七十九條第三款，所辦事業因重大事故經費超過法定預算時，請說明一下。"],["連次長錦漳：誠如剛才主計長所講，因為現在累計虧損已經有6,800億……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，虧損是另外一件事情……"],["連次長錦漳：這會影響到台電的經營狀況。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這裡面條文沒有一句話說因為累積虧損就可以這樣，沒有啊！"],["連次長錦漳：因為如果再累積、再繼續虧損下去，沒有去做處理，這會影響到台電整個經營，會影響全國的供電穩定。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請教董事長好了。"],["曾董事長文生：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：2022年有調漲嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：2022只有調產業，而且只有局部調。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以電價有調漲吧？"],["曾董事長文生：一開始第一次調漲……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：2023有沒有調漲？"],["曾董事長文生：也調11%。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是幾月審議會調漲的？"],["曾董事長文生：2023是4月。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：2022年10月有沒有調漲？"],["曾董事長文生：沒有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：俄烏戰爭什麼時候發生的？"],["曾董事長文生：2022年初。"],["鄭天財Sra 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49萬啊你每一年都要固定給他50萬欸請問哪一家哪一家媒體會透過你的一個所謂公開的標案每一年都可以跟你台電領50萬你告訴我除了他之外還有誰你告訴我"},{"start":631.82,"end":658.529,"text":"委員如果需要我們就是所有媒體採購的資料我需要我需要你們這幾年所有媒體採購你們4000多萬怎麼標出去的標給了誰成果是什麼樣我講了這個放鹽嘛每一年耶連續4年然後中間變成那個而且都是放鹽科技我剛講標案就叫放鹽科技的這個委託案"},{"start":659.749,"end":683.827,"text":"到底哪一個媒體有這麼樣神通廣大,你可不可以告訴我?我就要來看看你們其他的媒體是怎麼樣的,你們標案是什麼樣的形式?因為這些資料基本上審計也會看,大家都會看,就是...是!對啦,是你們台電標完審計也看,一起包庇嘛!這個在媒體根本就是公開的秘密了嘛!台電納稅人是要供養特定媒體嗎?"},{"start":687.469,"end":687.609,"text":"王鴻薇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我請主計長及台電董事長。"],["主席：請主計長及台電董事長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長，對於這個追加預算，其實你們的程序之前是有一些問題的，因為我們到7月份審計部才會審定歲計賸餘，但是你們在5月就提出追加預算，所以你們搞了一個巧門，就是先用舉債的方式，然後等到7月份核定歲計賸餘，你們才用歲計賸餘。請問我們現在追加1,000億，到底有多少是用舉債？多少是用歲計賸餘？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初送到院裡頭的時候，我們這個部分是用舉債，到時候如果我們有歲計賸餘，我們就不用舉債，也可以直接這樣執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊，那最後到底舉債多少？歲計賸餘支應多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前這個部分1,000億的歲計賸餘是有保留，保留要作為追加之用，如果將來這個案子在執行的時候，雖然是有列舉債，但是因為有歲計賸餘是可以……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以是多少啊？我一直在問你究竟多少，你已經耗我好多時間。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們有保留1,000億。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以如果追加1,000億通過的話，那麼全數都是用歲計賸餘？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那之前那個舉債的部分呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就不舉債了。"],["王委員鴻薇：就不舉債了是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們是先射箭再畫靶嘛，就是反正已經先要追加了，至於歲計賸餘有沒有核定及核定多少，都在不確定的狀況之下就先行追加，在程序上變成先射箭再畫靶。通常要用歲計賸餘應該先核定，且要核定多少，我用歲計賸餘再追加多少，但是現在就是不管，就是先追加1,000億，然後再去用歲計賸餘，我必須講這個程序事實上是不正常的程序啊！變成你今天就是要追加了，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我說明一下。因為這個部分追加是有其需求，我們是針對需求，先行用舉債的方式來辦理，但是等到審定之後，我們有歲計賸餘就可以來做調節。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，在你們的報告裡面，包含台電報告、包含主計處報告，過去都是這樣子，一開頭就說這是因為俄烏戰爭造成國際能源價格飆高。事實上，我們可以看到國際石油價格的趨勢圖，在2022年當時俄烏戰爭開打的時候，確實當時的能源價格飆高，但是，在2022年底整個價格就開始往下down，事實上到現在為止也早就回到俄烏戰爭之前的價格。我已經講過很多次了，你們每次都用俄烏戰爭來做你們的幌子，其實現在台電一個嚴重的虧損是來自於發電成本的提高，發電成本提高並不是來自於能源價格，因為現在能源價格你可以看到早就回到俄烏戰爭之前。反而我們每一次在說成本提高，或者是電價調整，我們來看下一個圖，過去我在總質詢的時候也提過，我們每一次在提高電價的時候，都來自於核電廠的除役。","從2021年7月核二廠1號機退役，然後開始國內的電價就一直往上升了，所以你們今天一直在用所謂的國際能源價格提高，這是一種擋箭牌，這是一個煙霧彈，其實就是因為我們讓核電廠除役而造成的。所以這也是為什麼一直到現在沒有辦法說服我們要繼續讓你們追加的原因，然後明年還要用公務預算繼續去彌補。事實上，我們好幾次都已經告訴你們，這幾年我們包含之前的增資，去年增資，去年的撥補，一直到今年的增資，今年增資也完成了，現在是要追加嘛，按照你們現在的估計，到明年公務預算起碼要5,000億。你們經濟部長也說還是會虧損，在這樣狀況之下台電會變成一個無底洞，所以這就是我們沒有辦法再繼續，如果你的能源政策不做調整，因為現在核三廠只剩下最後一個機組了，最後一個機組你還要繼續除役，那我們真的沒有辦法去同意包含今年的追加跟明年的撥補預算。","請問一下董事長，現在核三廠1號機開始除役，請問核燃料棒已經開始把它運出去了嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，基本上，我們幾乎都是計算用多少才買多少，所以沒有用的其實是非常有限，現在用過核燃料棒是在燃料池，有部分還在……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒錯，我說還沒有用過的。"],["曾董事長文生：還沒有用過的沒有運回去啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：也都還沒有運回去？"],["曾董事長文生：對，這樣講好了，我們本來就是依照每次充填要多少，我們就會買多少。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以在核燃料棒的部分，你們現在並沒有運出去。"],["曾董事長文生：我們沒有新的，我這樣講，我們最後一次……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們也沒有新增加？"],["曾董事長文生：最後一次填充燃料就把它給用完了，剛剛好，因為每次要用到填充多少燃料都會計算好，每次大修都會把它計算好放進去。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們到現在也沒有再新增加購買？"],["曾董事長文生：沒有沒用過的燃料棒。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們的2號機組還沒除役啊！"],["曾董事長文生：那個是2號機，現在在反應爐裡面。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以目前都沒有？"],["曾董事長文生：就裝在裡面。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外一個議題，我今天早上陪張淑娟小姐召開記者會，昨天周玉蔻小姐因為做不實的評論跟新聞，說張淑娟小姐涉及當年所謂的滾床單事件，所以周玉蔻小姐已經被判刑一年六個月，按照這樣的話，他應該要去坐牢。但是過去台電的宣傳費用，我們看台電宣傳費用過去幾乎年年都會包給放言科技廣告委刊工作，幾乎每一年，而且都用限制性招標，其實被外界質疑這是不是供養特定的媒體。因為台電還有明年的預算，而且你們的宣傳預算很多，我不看不知道有四千多萬耶，台電的宣傳預算四千多萬，所以我想請教董事長，有關於周玉蔻小姐現在已經被判刑一年六個月，他過去也被人家告了很多，過去大概都是民事讓他賠償，但是這次張淑娟小姐非常憤怒，他告的是刑事，所以現在周玉蔻已經被判刑。請問台電未來還會把這些宣傳費給特定媒體，給一個已經被法院判刑事要坐牢的媒體嗎？請回答。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，基本上這一些合約都是有透過採購程序去進行。"],["王委員鴻薇：都限制性招標呀！"],["曾董事長文生：我們只能夠依照採購的過程做相關的評選，我要跟委員報告的是，現在發生的任何狀況都會是評選的一個參考標準，這個事情大概就是如此，你提的問題，我們的採購對象是一個法人，也不是自然人，我想跟委員特別報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們對於放言是怎麼樣透過所謂的公平作為？2018年、2019年、2020年、2021年，中間連續4年，你們的標案都叫「放言科技廣告委刊工作」，標案叫做「放言科技廣告委刊工作」，連續4年，每一年都在50萬上下，從2018年47萬，2019年49萬，2020年50萬，到2021年54萬，你看金額都差不多，它固定要在這邊跟你領薪水啊！這叫做公平的標案？然後到2023年還有所謂的電力科普知識網路推廣，一樣啊，49萬啊！你每一年都要固定給它50萬耶！請問哪一家媒體會透過你所謂公開的標案？每一年都可以跟台電領50萬，你告訴我，除了它之外還有誰？你告訴我！"],["曾董事長文生：委員如果需要我們所有媒體採購的資料，我們會給。"],["王委員鴻薇：我需要！你們這幾年所有媒體採購，你們的四千多萬怎麼標出去的？標給了誰？成果是什麼樣？我講了這個放言嘛！每一年耶，連續4年，而且都是放言科技，我剛剛講標案就叫放言科技的委託案，到底哪一個媒體這麼樣神通廣大，你可不可以告訴我？我就要看看你們其他的媒體是怎麼樣的？你們的標案是什麼樣形式？"],["曾董事長文生：因為這些資料基本上審計也會看，大家都會看，就是……"],["王委員鴻薇：對啦！你們台電標完，審計也看，一起包庇嘛！"],["主席：請台電把資料提供給王鴻薇委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個在媒體根本就是公開的秘密了嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：我們可以提供資料給委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：是要納稅人供養特定媒體嗎？你們這樣，我剛才這樣子唸下來，這不是供養特定媒體嗎？"],["主席：謝謝王委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：主席，稍等一下，最後一句話，請你們把媒體採購相關的資料，你們一年四千多萬，將近5,000萬元，你怎麼採購的，提供給我們，讓我們看一下，好不好？"],["主席：請台電提供給王鴻薇委員，謝謝。","接著請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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們去考察我下次安排一個氣候颱風快來的時候安排你們去考察讓你們感受一下離島居民是什麼你請下去好不好我請那個召委請公路總局下次我質詢不那麼客氣了齁你們看我好好先生嘛是不是"},{"start":176.087,"end":190.777,"text":"我對你們交通部很好欸,你要我發脾氣嗎?你把我搞火了我跟你講,我以後對你們不客氣,我砍預算照砍啊。如果有刪過你們一毛錢嗎?局長我問你喔,行政院秘書長6月13號發了一個函,講有關北竿大橋的事情。"},{"start":196.516,"end":215.935,"text":"我到最近我才知道去年的還是去年去年的東西你們可以直接放在那邊睡覺沒有沒有沒有他的正本沒有發給也沒發給我也沒發給林鄉縣政府不停的打圈圈下情無法上達嘛對不對蔡總統答應我們的做大橋賴總統當行政院長的時候答應我們做大橋"},{"start":222.503,"end":245.396,"text":"你們底下公路總局不敢問交通部長不敢問然後扯到國發會國發會又花了五、六百萬拿到英國去做工程技術上難度的認定你講技術沒問題啊是不是技術沒有問題啊還有什麼問題前面蘇貞燦院長講經費上沒問題啊這什麼態度啊這什麼態度啊"},{"start":252.281,"end":278.783,"text":"不是我們在騙人,是你們在騙人耶!你知道嗎?局長我不一定講你喔!你的上頭都在騙!一個騙字啊!可以這樣騙嗎?去年6月13號的公文到現在,搞到現在,不但騙我,騙你縣政府耶!公文不停的來來去去來來去去,搞了六七年了,你蓋還是不蓋嘛?講清楚嘛!"},{"start":279.838,"end":281.92,"text":"你不蓋了嗎?我就講總統講的話放屁!院長講的話也是放屁!可以這樣搞嗎?這是中央政府啊!是不是?然後說南開那邊的人比較多,南開機場繼續給他保留,是不是?以後叫他起他們坐飛機,降落的時候我看他怕不怕?"},{"start":305.27,"end":311.033,"text":"我家全家人欸五條人命在這個機場上面你知道嗎?我覺得那麼強烈在那邊講話誰家搞過空難你講我很堅持就這樣子南開機場一定要廢掉了嘛飛行員、教官跟我講降落在南開機場很像降落在航空母艦上面欸你們搞過這個事情嗎?那個側風是多大你知道嗎?"},{"start":335.899,"end":342.823,"text":"很危險的勒一定要搞出人命來嗎?所以北竿機場的速度一定要加快那南北竿大橋你們上面講馬祖大橋就馬祖大橋嘛現在英國認證已經回來了到你們手上那你們現在又提出什麼建議?給政府建議說什麼?你們建議什麼?"},{"start":368.517,"end":394.654,"text":"關閉時程施工進度如果做大橋的話那麼同時做北竿機場這裡面在錢的部分能夠少多少英國第三方的公證講說多少?390億你替他在放屁啊他有什麼算出來的?他的腦袋是AI還是電腦?多深海域浪多大連量都沒量看都沒看還有國發會"},{"start":396.598,"end":420.866,"text":"我一起罵我改天到海盜農委會去罵海盜經濟委會去罵國發會你們這些專家學者專門騙人家公文到手上隨便一個文就回給交通部你們交通部也不吭不哈的你們要把它寫出來嘛是不是這個橋的重要性經費沒問題啊都是總統級的人講經費沒問題不是我講的我怎麼敢講呢經費不是問題技術才是問題"},{"start":426.957,"end":456.357,"text":"那公傳是可行的嘛。我們世襲不是最好的單位嗎?外國的月亮比較圓,要拿到外國去。外國現在月亮也沒有我們圓,已經回來了。不然你們要有作為啊。我每個禮拜都會問,我每個禮拜都會,只要你們來我一定會問你們這個大橋的市政,這個進度。都是總統講的話,你講說不要做嘛,你講。你講我天天在紫雲海罵他們講話放屁我跟你講。"},{"start":457.407,"end":481.756,"text":"騙人!騙子!你看我敢不敢講?不可以這樣嘛!部長今天又跑掉了!我會提程序問題喔!以後部長喔!你們幕僚人員部長什麼時候來這裡開會喔!你就要待在立法院!不准請假!不管誰當抓委都一樣!我想給你們方便,你們去把他隨便!"},{"start":484.366,"end":508.505,"text":"我腳痛啊,不良於心,我下去我想一想不對,我就跑上來了。你們怎麼可以這樣子勒?對事情的認識的態度。市長,你能夠完全回答我問題嗎?你回答不出來嘛,你懂了沒有?有一些事情要部長來回答嘛。我為什麼有時候要提到總執行去,部長也回答不來,要院長來回答。那以後交通委員會不要開會了嘛。"},{"start":510.22,"end":522.792,"text":"請次長來位階都太高了,請局長來就好了,哪個局長代表一下就好了。不可以這樣子啊。我什麼時候在立法院的殿堂這樣子講話過,我從來沒有那麼生氣過我跟你講。好不好,謝謝召委。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1231,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（13時39分）主席，就請次長。"],["主席：請陳彥伯次長。"],["陳委員雪生：次長，部長今天有重要的事嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，我的了解是部長等一下要參加一個招商的記者會。"],["陳委員雪生：他不知道今天交通委員會開會嗎？今天到立法院來，他知道嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：應該是知道。"],["陳委員雪生：那可以中途去請假？那委員要問的事情，你能夠完全代表他回答得出來嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：部長請假，他有依照相關的程序來申請。"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，我跟召委報告，我希望以後部長級的，我們立法院難得跟你們碰個面，我也不會去騷擾你們，開會的時候你們就來嘛！不要又什麼花樣，又請假又幹什麼的，你們幕僚人員要注意一下，今天立法院開會，你們就要把這個行程喬好，對不對！你乾脆10點鐘部長有什麼行程也去好了，那我們來這裡幹什麼？對不對！你影響到我的質詢權，我的問題你能回答我嗎？我如果要質詢你的話，有些問題要部長回答的，你回答不出來怎麼辦？你浪費我們時間嘛！你懂了沒有？我特別跟召委報告，我們以後注意一下這方面的事情，對每個委員大家都尊重，我不是要責難你，因為我當召委的時候也常常准假。"],["主席：陳委員，部長有事先請假，我也同意他請假，我們在今天的出席名單上就有備註了。"],["陳委員雪生：我尊重你，不然我今天就鬧場了。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：次長，我告訴你我要問部長什麼問題，我要問他這次去馬祖考察的感想，因為他第一次去，有沒有什麼感想。飛機降落的時候險象環生，那個側風對不對！回程要坐飛機沒辦法坐，要渡海到北竿去，到北竿上飛機，在海上又非常顛簸，他快吐了，所以這些中央長官，風浪越大、氣候越壞，我希望他們去考察，下次颱風快來的時候我安排你們去考察，讓你們感受一下離島居民的狀況。","召委，我請公路總局，下次我質詢不會那麼客氣，你們看我好好先生嘛！對不對！我對你們交通部很好耶！你要我發脾氣嗎？你把我搞火了，我以後對你們不客氣，我預算照砍，我有刪過你們一毛錢嗎？局長，行政院秘書長6月13日發了一個函講有關北竿大橋的事情，我到最近才知道。"],["陳局長文瑞：是去年6月13日。"],["陳委員雪生：去年的東西，你們可以直接放在那邊睡覺？"],["陳局長文瑞：沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：他的正本沒有發給我，也沒發給連江縣政府，不停的打圈圈，下情無法上達嘛！對不對！蔡總統答應我們的耶！賴總統當行政院長的時候答應我們做大橋，你們底下公路總局不敢問，交通部長不敢問，然後扯到國發會，國發會又花了五、六百萬元拿到英國去做工程技術上難度的認定，人家說技術沒問題啊！還有什麼問題？前面蘇貞昌院長講經費上沒問題啊！這是什麼態度啊！不是我們在騙人，是你們在騙人，你知道嗎？局長，我不一定講你，你的上頭都在騙，一個「騙」字，可以這樣騙嗎？去年6月13日的公文搞到現在，不但騙我、騙縣政府，公文不停的來來去去、來來去去，搞了六、七年了，蓋還是不蓋嘛！講清楚嘛！你不蓋的話，我就講總統講的話放屁，院長講的話也是放屁，可以這樣搞嗎？這是中央政府啊！然後說南竿那邊人比較多，南竿機場積極保留，以後請他們坐飛機，降落的時候看他怕不怕。我家全家人耶！5條人命在這機場上面，你知道嗎？我今天這麼強烈在這裡講話，誰家搞過空難，你講！我很堅持，就這樣子。南竿機場一定要廢掉的嘛！飛行員教官跟我講，降落在南竿機場像降落在航空母艦上面，你們搞過這個事情嗎？那個側風多大，你們知道嗎？很危險的，一定要搞出人命來嗎？","所以北竿機場的速度一定要加快。那南北竿大橋，你們上面講馬祖大橋就馬祖大橋，現在英國認證已經回來了，在你們手上，你們現在又提出什麼建議？給縣政府建議說什麼？你們建議什麼？南竿機場關閉的時程、施工的進度，如果做大橋的話，同時做北竿機場，你們錢的部分能夠少多少？英國第三方的公證單位說390億元，聽它在放屁啊！它用什麼算出來的？它的腦袋是AI還是電腦？海域多深、浪多大，量都沒量、看都沒看，還有國發會，我一起罵，我改天還要到經濟委員會去罵，國發會你們這些專家學者專門騙人家，公文到手上，隨便一個文就回給交通部，你們交通部也不吭不哈的，你們要把它寫出來嘛！是不是！這個橋的重要性，經費沒問題啊！都是總統級的人講經費沒問題，不是我講的，我怎麼敢講呢！經費不是問題，技術才是問題，工程是可行的嘛！我們世曦不是最好的單位嗎？外國的月亮比較圓，要拿到外國去。外國現在月亮沒有我們圓，已經回來了，回來你們要有作為啊！我每個禮拜都會問，只要你們來，我一定會問你們這個大橋的進度，都是總統講的話，你講不要做嘛！你講！我天天在質詢臺上罵他們講話放屁，騙人！騙子！你看我敢不敢講！不可以這樣嘛！部長今天又跑掉了，我會提程序問題喔！以後部長什麼時候要來這裡開會，你們幕僚人員要叫他待在立法院，不准請假，不管誰當召委都一樣。我給你們方便，你們就隨便，我腳痛不良於行，我下去想想不對又跑上來，你們怎麼可以這樣子呢？對事情任事的態度，次長，你能夠完全回答我的問題嗎？你回答不出來嘛！你懂了沒有？有一些事情要部長來回答嘛！我為什麼有時候要提到總質詢去，部長也回答不出來，要院長來回答，那以後交通委員會不要開會了嘛！請次長來位階太高了，請局長來就好了，哪個局長代表一下就好，不可以這樣子啊！我什麼時候在立法院這樣跟你講話過，我從來沒有這麼生氣過。謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員。","接著請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157558","url":"h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的陶基現在的合約會到民國幾年幾月?跟委員報告彩萌的合約是從108年開始這中間因為有經歷了疫情的影響所以這個大概有三年四個月"},{"start":66.442,"end":86.852,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":87.062,"end":89.623,"text":"公路局及所屬單公路局及所屬單公路局及所屬單"},{"start":115.789,"end":119.232,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":137.845,"end":164.161,"text":"除此之外在合約上面有沒有其他的一些牽制的功能所以我們是不是還是必須等到2040年的4月也就是說還有16年是我想跟委員報告我們早上報告的這個是一個懲罰性的一個罰款那就我們合約執行本身我們每年要對他們的營運績效來做平和"},{"start":164.801,"end":191.719,"text":"所以今年的話這一次的事件一定會反映在113的這個平和結果裡面那這個部分都會納到我們的後續合約執行的檢討來一併做整體的考量所以也就是說雖然他的合約還在走但是這個事件會納入他的這個合約是不是能夠繼續持續的檢討所以是有可能提早解約的嗎?"},{"start":193.44,"end":208.318,"text":"這個部分我們可能會做整體的檢討因為在合約裡面的確有如果這個情節真的重大到會影響到合約執行那可能會有相對應的條款來處理那對於這一次的情形"},{"start":209.137,"end":214.722,"text":"當然就是會以整體來看它的一個狀況。老師說這個有關於我們一直不停的延長合約在我去年我就曾經提出來過對不對也就是說我們本來我們就有12年的一個合約因為疫情給它延長3年所以就已經有15年"},{"start":229.935,"end":242.269,"text":"結果呢去年他又以所謂的因為疫情的關係再給他深恆昌是10年4個月彩毛是9年4個月所以兩家呢每一家呢都會變成25年長達25年四分之一世紀的一個長期的合約"},{"start":248.877,"end":253.658,"text":"所以我當時就說這到底是什麼樣的霸王合約啊我在國外免稅店也不可能給他們這麼長的合約大家都經歷過疫情所以其實在去年的時候你們給他這麼長的合約就已經有問題了才造成這個採盲整個是喧賓奪主啊變成黃金之亂而你們合約裡面說看營運績效營運績效也就是說我們如果觀光人潮夠多的話"},{"start":275.162,"end":275.983,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":305.243,"end":310.309,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":326.587,"end":347.744,"text":"在這個國門在維持他的營運所以他也受到營運的損失那我們的確是依據促參法還有這個契約的相關規定來核算按公式來算這這件事情啊如果沒有這個黃金之亂可能大家還沒有注意到好沒有錯三年多那麼他受到疫情的影響你再補他補他三年"},{"start":350.146,"end":350.567,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":367.128,"end":385.601,"text":"因為這個三年的疫情等於是某個程度是一個空白的三年所以對於我們現在的確合約計算是從疫情這個部分會把它扣除然後我們才去算它的損失的部分要補多少年給它這個是這樣算的那第二個補充就是說"},{"start":387.202,"end":412.329,"text":"對於這個合約的執行營運績效不是看它的營業而是就合約應該要負責的內容比如說包含公共服務各方面有沒有做得好。公共服務有做得好嗎?做成這樣都做到黃金之亂所以最後一句話是不是你剛剛講說公共服務公共服務服務到引起公憤他公共服務引起公憤所以你們在這一次是不是在合約裡面要真的做檢討"},{"start":416.076,"end":433.954,"text":"包括委員所以這一次的一個事件一定會一定會在今年的營運績效評估裡面去充分的來做反應跟做對應的沒有沒有什麼時候會做出一個結論我們一般的話是今年的營運績效會在明年來辦理明年什麼時候"},{"start":435.27,"end":452.363,"text":"明年有12個月我們預計是大概從上半年就開始準備因為這個我們不是我們機場公司自己來做平額我們會邀請外部的委員來做平額所以這個這件事情啊不要等到這個事情平息了風頭過去了然後就不了了之好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1279,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（13時55分）謝謝主席，請陳次長和桃機公司的范總經理。"],["主席：請陳彥伯次長和范總經理。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想先請范總經理跟我們說一下，因為這次中華英雄、中華隊回到國內在機場非常的凌亂，而且發生所謂的黃巾之亂，也就是免稅店采盟公司亂入，當然就引起了非常多的爭議。請問一下，采盟在桃機現在的合約會到民國幾年幾月？"],["范總經理孝倫：采盟的合約是從108年開始，這中間因為有經歷了疫情的影響，這個大概有3年4個月，因為廠商受影響滿大的，所以我們依據促參法和契約的規定，也在去年進行了契約的研討延約，這個部分是加了6年，它的合約時間總共加了9年4個月，原來合約的時間是在119年12月，所以實際上最後延長時間是129年4月。"],["王委員鴻薇：民國幾年？"],["范總經理孝倫：129年4月。"],["王委員鴻薇：也就是到2020年4月，是嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：不是。"],["王委員鴻薇：2040年4月，民國129年4月，它的合約才會到期。請問一下，在這個過程裡面，像采盟現在引起公憤、很大的爭議，今天早上說會給它100萬元的罰款，除此之外，在合約上面有沒有其他的牽制的功能，我們是不是還是必須等到2040年的4月，也就是說還有16年。"],["范總經理孝倫：早上報告的是一個懲罰性的罰款，就我們合約執行本身，我們每年要對它的營運績效進行評核，今年這一次的事件一定會反應在113年的評核結果裡面，這個部分都會納到後續合約執行的檢討，一併做整體的考量。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以也就是說雖然它的合約還在走，但是這個事件會納入它的合約是不是能夠繼續持續的檢討，所以是有可能提早解約的嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：這個部分我們會做整體的檢討，因為在合約裡面的確有如果情節真的重大到會影響合約執行，可能會有相對應的條款來處理，對於這次的情形，當然就是會以整體來看它的狀況。"],["王委員鴻薇：老實說，這個有關於我們一直不停的延長合約，我去年就曾經提出來過，也就是說，本來我們就有12年的合約，因為疫情給它延長3年，所以就已經有15年，結果去年它又以所謂的因為疫情的關係再給它，昇恆昌是10年4個月，采盟是9年4個月，所以兩家都會變成長達25年、四分之一世紀長期的合約，所以我當時就說這到底是什麼樣的霸王合約，在國外免稅店也不可能給他們這麼長的合約，大家都經歷過疫情，所以其實在去年的時候，你們給它這麼長的合約就已經有問題了，才造成采盟簡直就是喧賓奪主，變成黃巾之亂，而你們合約裡面說看營運績效，營運績效也就是說如果觀光人潮夠多的話，它們績效就會好，也不是它們多了不起啊！我們機場人多是因為我們努力啊！機場人少也是我們努力不夠，所以你們在這整個合約裡面其實只是用營運績效，而且莫名其妙的就用一個行政裁量權給它延長到25年，也就是說，其他如果容或有一些其實也有績效，然後也是聲譽卓著的公司，這兩家公司就霸占25年，合理嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：分兩點說明，第一點，有關年期延長的部分，第一個是疫情的影響是3年4個月，對於廠商在這3年4個月當中也配合政策堅守在國門維持營運，所以它也受到營運的損失，我們的確是依據促參法和契約的相關規定來核算，按公式來算。"],["王委員鴻薇：這件事情如果沒有黃巾之亂，可能大家還沒有注意到，沒有錯，3年多它受到疫情的影響，你再補它3年，了不起5年就好了，結果現在不是耶！你們專門都這樣，要五毛給一塊，你們補它將近10年之久，我剛加起來是不是25年，到底有哪一個霸王合約可以長達25年，你告訴我。"],["范總經理孝倫：這個3年的疫情等於某個程度是一個空白的3年，所以我們對於合約計算會把疫情這個部分扣除，然後我們才去算它的損失部分要補多少年給它，這是這樣算的。第二個補充，對於合約的執行，營運績效不是看它的營業額，而是就合約應該要負責的內容，例如公共服務各方面有沒有做得好。"],["王委員鴻薇：公共服務有做得好嗎？做成這樣、做到黃巾之亂。最後一句話，你剛才講公共服務，公共服務到引起公憤啊！所以你們這一次是不是在合約裡面要真的做檢討啊！"],["范總經理孝倫：這次的事件一定會在今年的營運績效評估裡面去充分反應和作對應的檢討。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼時候會做出一個結論？"],["范總經理孝倫：一般今年的營運績效會在明年來辦理。"],["王委員鴻薇：明年什麼時候？明年有12個月。"],["范總經理孝倫：我們預計大概是從上半年就開始準備，因為不是我們機場公司自己來評核，我們會邀請外部的委員來做評核。"],["王委員鴻薇：這件事情不要等到這個事情平息了、風頭過去了，然後就不了了之，好不好！"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，不會。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接下來請王美惠委員，王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在現場。","接下來請李柏毅委員，李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員不在現場。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在現場。","接下來請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在現場。","接下來請張雅琳委員，張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員不在現場。","接下來請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在現場。","接下來請羅智強委員，羅智強委員、羅智強委員、羅智強委員不在現場。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在現場。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在現場。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在現場。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決議：報告及詢答完畢，委員羅智強、張雅琳所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。114年度交通部中央氣象署、公路局及所屬單位預算、國道公路建設管理基金非營業預算均另擇期進行處理。委員所提預算提案，於12月12日（星期四）中午12點截止收件。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501",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身它就會超過因為連續這個調漲的部分大概有分3年有11%"},{"start":88.246,"end":113.096,"text":"實施一連續兩年還有一個八點四所以整個合起來就調漲將近百分之三十但是我們前兩年都沒有給他調整預算所以到第三年才調整預算所以這個部分他的幅度就會比較大一點是啊但是這樣子本市也覺得說很莫名啊你如果說照理講你在過去你可以那就是變成說過去我們行政單位行政部門的這個行政預算也都有浮邊的情況"},{"start":114.036,"end":131.075,"text":"所以過去兩次也沒有調漲比今年來的嚴重但過去都可以承受那今年你說也要一次補期那還有就是有一些單位甚至調漲的都編列的都比調漲的高所以也才會有民眾會懷疑跟擔心說是不是明年還有可能再繼續調漲的空間"},{"start":132.776,"end":147.701,"text":"我再補充說明其實實際調漲的部分我覺得這樣變成是說是不是我們中央預算太過於編列的太過於腐爛了都有彈性的空間到那麼大剛剛您講連續3年30%所以換言之我們3兆元裡面有30%的預算其實有可能是有彈性空間的"},{"start":153.223,"end":178.804,"text":"不是,我這再說明一下,因為調整電費裡面有三個原因,一個就是調整的部分,那調整的部分今年大概是12.37億這個部分,大概16左右啦,調整16左右。那第二個就是因為有新增辦公廳設的部分,所以它這個部分電費會增加。那第三個就是優惠電價,它取消了,然後回歸部會來編列的部分,所以主要有三個部分。"},{"start":179.124,"end":179.144,"text":"市長﹖"},{"start":205.089,"end":232.189,"text":"我剛也在經濟委員會這邊有諮詢郭部長我講是說既然我們現在台電不是有都推廣是說各公家機關都應該用智慧電表就是要比較嚴格的控管說我們的各公家機關的用電量但是發現一個很離譜的事情勞動部北區分署的分署長他辦公室裡面可以搞質災牆然後說今年二月的澄清書就有員工澄清爆料講是說他的"},{"start":234.144,"end":240.895,"text":"公用電新莊本部112年的用電基準比去年高出許多高達3萬多度電"},{"start":243.817,"end":243.837,"text":"媒體報導"},{"start":266.946,"end":290.964,"text":"所以未來針對我們各公家機關的用電的部分我們不管是經濟部不管是台電我們既然已經有智慧電表了照理講我們應該是可以去了解是說去年這個公家機關它用多少電那今年它應該用電的狀況除非它有大幅度的人事的成長或是說它有大幅度的業務量的成長否則它的用電狀況是不是應該要"},{"start":292.805,"end":293.366,"text":"市長說明一下吧"},{"start":309.571,"end":339.257,"text":"那種AMI就是那個智慧電表我想他們那邊應該是沒有去去設置那個智慧電表不過現在沒有嗎?我們新莊那個是第二辦公室不是嗎?那個要去查一下要去查一下因為現在臺電在設的設施有分階段在依照不同條件但是應該照理講我們公家機關是不是要優先使用了?公家機關我們現在有跨部會現在有行政院社會永續長而且我們現在在推深度節能"},{"start":339.797,"end":339.977,"text":"李卓人議員﹗"},{"start":366.374,"end":391.01,"text":"他就有講過說公家機關要推智慧電表公家機關率先來做我們那時候還講說給你拍拍手說公家機關你要先做因為這才比較能夠精準的瞭解我每個階段我不是要公務同仁不做事是公務同仁做事我們都支持我們都鼓勵但是如果說突然間有異常的高或異常的低你可以做一個瞭解"},{"start":391.51,"end":393.512,"text":"（詢答及處理（事由．審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案。．"},{"start":420.194,"end":423.356,"text":"主席長,我拜託你一下好不好,因為控管、公款的能力強,其實我覺得你的能力就在於是這個數字"},{"start":436.564,"end":437.524,"text":"委員會主委委員會主委"},{"start":467.918,"end":468.199,"text":"徐欣盈委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1102,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時35分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請主計長以及經濟部次長。"],["主席：經濟部次長、主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主計長，我看到媒體在你上任時給你很高的評價，控管公款的能力強啊！所以你是一個很可以把關的人。從過去到現在，不管是在地方政府或是中央的單位，你的表現就是可以把關的部分。我先請教一下，明年中央政府總預算首次突破3兆元，其中有好多個部會，我們看到它的行政相關支出都調漲，給我們的說法都是為了因應所謂的電價調漲，所以它的行政預算也要跟著調漲。但是即便是今年，我們的電價調漲也只有12.5%，換言之，如果明年各部會的行政預算調漲超過12.5%，是不是就不合理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為這個部分有連續三年調漲，但是我們都沒有在預算上做調整，所以到了今年一調漲的話，它本身就會超過了。因為連續調漲的部分，分三年有連續兩年的11%以及一個8.4%，整個合起來就調漲將近30%，但是我們前兩年都沒讓它調整預算，到了第三年才調整預算，所以這個部分的幅度就會比較大一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是這樣本席也覺得很莫名啊！照理講，過去行政部門的行政預算也都有浮編的情況，但過去兩次也沒有調漲比今年來得嚴重啊！既然過去都可以承受，今年你說要一次補齊，甚至有些單位編列的都比調漲的高，才會有民眾懷疑及擔心明年是不是可能還有繼續調漲的空間啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再補充說明，其實實際調漲的部分應該……"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得是不是我們的中央預算編列得太過於浮濫，都有那麼大的彈性空間？剛剛你講連續三年是30%，換言之，在3兆元裡有30%的預算其實有可能是有彈性空間的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再說明一下，調漲電費有3個原因，一個就是調整的部分，今年調整的部分大概是12.37億、大概是16左右。第二個，因為有新增辦公廳舍，這個部分的電費就會增加。第三個，優惠電價取消了，回歸部會編列的部分。因此，主要有3個部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：主計長，因為各單位都不一樣，但是所有單位在這次提出來的總預算、行政預算都往上提高，這是事實嘛！對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，提高的部分只有提高一點，並沒有所謂三年的30%一次調高，不是這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：那就拉回來了，我們就看各公家機關是不是都有妥善運用這些錢。","次長，剛剛我也在經濟委員會質詢過部長，現在台電推廣公家機關都應該使用智慧電表，其實就是要比較嚴格控管各公家機關的用電量，但是發現一件很離譜的事情，勞動部北區分署的分署長可以在辦公室裡搞植栽牆，今年2月就有員工陳情爆料，新莊本部112年的用電基準比去年高出許多，高達三萬多度電，這是媒體報導的。如果今天公部門沒有嚴格把關或monitor或是去了解各公家機關用電的狀況，卻持續要求民眾、一般老百姓節約用電，甚至總統煞有其事的成立了一個氣候變遷對策委員會，結論就是要大家節約用電，這樣不是很奇怪嘛！","因此，未來針對各公家機關用電的部分，不管是經濟部、不管是台電，既然已經有智慧電表，照理講，我們應該可以了解去年這個公家機關用了多少電，今年的用電狀況，除非它有大幅度的人事成長或是它有大幅度的業務量成長，否則，它的用電狀況是不是應該要持平，或是比例不應該過高、過低？如果有過高、過低的狀況，是不是就應該要去了解為什麼這個公務機關的用電量突然變那麼大，是不是又有分署長亂搞？次長，說明一下吧！"],["連次長錦漳：因為現在正在弄AMI，也就是智慧電表，我想他們那邊應該是沒有設置智慧電表，不過，現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有嗎？新莊那個是第二辦公室，不是嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：要去查一下、要去查一下，因為台電是依照不同條件分階段設置智慧電錶。"],["洪委員孟楷：照理講，公家機關是不是要優先使用了？"],["連次長錦漳：現在行政院設了跨部會的永續長，而且我們現在正在推深度節能，結合九大部會，先針對國營事業相關的辦公大樓，現在已經在做深度節能，我們也會把這個東西的相關資料都臚列出來。委員講的涉及到各部會的辦公大樓，我們可以在永續長的平台把它提出來，並將相關資料提供給各部會參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：我記得之前質詢過王美花部長，當時她就講過公家機關要推智慧電表、公家機關率先來做，我們還說給你拍拍手！還說公家機關要先做，因為這樣才能比較精準的了解每個階段。我不是要公務同仁不做事，而是對於公務同仁做事都支持、都鼓勵，但是如果突然間有異常的高或異常的低，你可以做一個了解，才不會讓財政部門認為……主計單位其實看的就是這些啊！即使你沒辦法去現地看，但是你可以看數字，一攤開就知道為什麼與去年同期比較有比較異常的狀況。"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們會去了解，因為分署是在整個勞動部的同棟大樓，它是不是分表，我們不知道，但是總表有一些數據，如果分署單獨的變異不是很大，真的從那個總表是看不出來。我們現在針對這個……"],["主席：次長，會後趕快把資料……"],["洪委員孟楷：主計長，拜託一下！因為你控管公款的能力強，其實我覺得你的能力就在於數字管理，之前你也擔任過研考會主委，所以你也非常了解，是不是針對未來總預算的部分，尤其是公家部門，應該要針對它們有沒有裝設智慧電表去做了解，不要讓我們的行政預算感覺太過於浮濫？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個是不是也能當成一個指標，要求各公家機關必須裝設智慧電錶，後續行政費用的編列才有依據？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們來研究。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個當成一個指標，研究看看，麻煩，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝孟楷委員。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","接著請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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分,次長我們有沒有辦法把握這個機會來檢討縮短相關的期程,有沒有辦法?"},{"start":61.957,"end":77.193,"text":"我想委員剛才提到那個期程大概是平常就是規劃的時候會是這樣規劃尤其是期程還沒有行政院還沒有核定等等的時候大概大體上他會這樣說明但是整體整個計劃核定了之後就會有比較詳細的而且比較嚴謹的一個期程的規劃"},{"start":83.78,"end":112.348,"text":"另外剛才講到的綜合規劃也好或環境影響評估也好等等的稀釋也好他們是可以並行在設計的這是在設計階段還沒發包之前那如果發包之後其實可以依照發包的策略他其實是可以做一些調整來加速他的一個工程的進行所以這部分原則上我們會依照委員的一個意見在這個整個計畫核定之後來朝縮短工期的方式來做處理"},{"start":113.268,"end":116.332,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":128.208,"end":130.529,"text":"在看幾年之內就能夠完整的補完。"},{"start":145.416,"end":146.417,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":160.162,"end":181.032,"text":"觀眾謙虛"},{"start":181.403,"end":201.023,"text":"甚至這個他這個身份證還有同意書的認證一直在重複這些問題所以我希望說那時候建議就是希望能夠由我們交通部是不是來可以跟縣政府溝通看看來整合把這個宜蘭縣內的這個通勤月票跟北北基桃的公共運輸定期月票整合成一張有沒有辦法"},{"start":202.608,"end":204.529,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":220.839,"end":244.96,"text":"包括臺北到宜蘭這邊的國道客運跟台鐵然後之後進到臺北都會區的話不過就是還是有相關的一個補助機制啦那因為他的一個整合性確實他變成說還要協調這個基北北桃因為他變成說他還有其他基北北桃的一些相關的每一種運具他都要做一些設施的一個感染我還是拜託局長、次長就是盡量來協調"},{"start":246.081,"end":269.579,"text":"我們再去了解一下看有什麼方式來協助因為產生這個許多民眾一直打電話在反映這個問題困擾許多的通行組我希望說由我們交通部來跟縣政府那邊來溝通這盡快處理那另外就是針對這個鐵路高架的部分鐵路的整個交通路網是提供給全國民眾通行一個便利性的使用那在"},{"start":270.82,"end":286.515,"text":"現在看起來我們宜蘭縣的這個鐵路高架的部分應該順利的在這個期程裡面進行當中那我想請教就是針對這個配額款的部分我還是希望我們交通部能夠來重視這個問題因為你要讓工程能夠順利推動的話應該是要"},{"start":293.242,"end":307.873,"text":"讓縣政府有能力來負擔的一個配額款當然我也感謝我們交通部在經過檢討之後已經下修讓配額款再減少了那是不是有這個空間可以再檢討可以讓配額款再減少"},{"start":311.01,"end":336.625,"text":"這個議題我想部長也很關心所以他也特別提到就是說相關配合款地方的配合款如果說在地方真的有不同的一個需求的話可以在行政院所謂的專案的協調到時候在那裡專案協商的時候縣府把相關的這個所遇到的問題或他希望達成的一個目標想法提出來"},{"start":337.805,"end":356.978,"text":"在行政院相關的會議裡頭大家共同來討論我們交通部會來協助拜託我們交通部來無論如何就是針對這個問題能夠重視那另外就是針對中規的部分鐵路高架宜蘭部分中規他在今年年底有沒有辦法順利的送行政院來核定"},{"start":360.261,"end":380.07,"text":"這一部分我們鐵道局正在審查那我想我們再來瞭解一下看鐵道局他現在因為沒有這個市長我跟您報告一下10月22號我在這個行政院總諮詢的時候曾經問過那也希望就是在年底能夠來終歸完成那當時是有沒有辦法"},{"start":388.37,"end":415.452,"text":"呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1202,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（13時32分）好，謝謝主席。我們有請次長跟公路局陳局長。"],["主席：請次長及陳局長。"],["陳委員俊宇：次長、局長午安。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。午安！"],["陳委員俊宇：我想先請教次長，針對宜蘭目前在送審的台62線的部分，我們目前是進入可行性評估的期末報告當中。可是我看到我們整個相關的資料出來，初估在可行性評估之後，期程大概還要14年，其中包括綜合規劃及環境影響評估需要6年。環境影響評估審議過後，設計及用地取得需要3年，整個工期還需要5年，總共就要14年。次長，針對這個部分，我們有沒有辦法把握這個機會，來檢討縮短相關的期程？有沒有辦法？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想委員剛才提到那個期程，那大概是平常規劃的時候會是這樣規劃，尤其是期程行政院還沒有核定等等的時候，大概大體上它會這樣說明。但是整個計畫核定了之後，就會有比較詳細的、而且比較嚴謹的期程的規劃。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["陳次長彥伯：另外，剛才講到的綜合規劃也好，或環境影響評估也好等等的細設也好，他們是可以並行在設計的，這是在設計階段，還沒發包之前。那如果發包之後，其實可以依照發包的策略做一些調整，來加速它工程的進行。所以這部分原則上我們會依照委員的意見，在整個計畫核定之後，朝縮短工期的方式來做處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝次長。因為時間看起來太冗長了……"],["陳次長彥伯：太長了！"],["陳委員俊宇：14年真的太離譜了！整個民眾觀感就認為說我們這個工程為什麼會拖這麼久，所以我希望一定要縮短期程，看能不能在幾年之內就能夠完成這個部分。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我跟委員報告。在交通部相關的工程計畫裡頭大概都有普遍這種現象，但是交通部在最後審查或對外說明的時候，我大概會要求他們依照這個方式，把相關的期程做相關的處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外，宜蘭縣政府有送TPASS通勤月票的部分，它目前是創全國之先，兩卡同行，用了兩卡啦！這也滿奇怪的。之前我也建議過，這兩卡同行的問題已經開始衍生出來了。從9月5號上路到現在才差不多兩個多月的時間，許多民眾還有通勤族困擾的問題都出現了。刷錯卡，你要退費，手續非常地繁瑣，甚至身分證還有同意書的認證一直在重複這些問題。所以我那時候的建議，就是希望能夠由交通部跟縣政府溝通看看，來整合，把宜蘭縣內的通勤月票跟北北基桃的公共運輸定期月票整合成一張。有沒有辦法？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為進到北部地區，如果要把它整合成一張卡的話，基北北桃1200部分修正的幅度也滿大的啦！所以才會說宜蘭這邊民眾使用，包括臺北到宜蘭的國道客運跟臺鐵，然後之後進到臺北都會區的話……不過還是有一個相關的補助機制。它的整合性確實……變成說它還要協調基北北桃，因為變成說它還有其他基北北桃相關的每一種運具都要做一些設施的改善。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒有！我還是拜託局長、次長儘量來協調。"],["陳次長彥伯：我再去了解一下看有什麼方式來協助。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為許多民眾一直打電話在反映，這個問題困擾許多的通勤族，我希望由交通部來跟縣政府溝通。這個要儘快處理。","另外，針對鐵路高架的部分，鐵路的整個交通路網是提供給全國民眾一個通行便利性的使用，現在看起來宜蘭縣鐵路高架的部分應該順利地在期程裡面進行當中。我想請教就是，針對配合款的部分，我還是希望交通部能夠來重視這個問題，因為你要讓工程能夠順利推動的話，應該是要讓縣政府有能力來負擔的配合款。當然我也感謝交通部在經過檢討之後已經下修，讓配合款再減少了。那是不是有空間可以再檢討，讓這個配合款再減少？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，這個議題我想部長也很關心，所以他也特別提到，就是地方相關的配合款如果在地方真的有不同的需求的話，可以在行政院所謂的專案的協調，到時候在那裡專案協商的時候，縣府把相關所遇到的問題或它希望達成的目標、想法提出來，在行政院相關的會議裡頭大家共同來討論，我們交通部會來協助。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，拜託交通部，無論如何針對這個問題能夠重視。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外就是針對綜規的部分，鐵路高架宜蘭部分綜規在今年年底有沒有辦法順利地送行政院核定？"],["陳次長彥伯：這一部分我們鐵道局正在審查，我想我們再來了解一下看鐵道局它現在……"],["陳委員俊宇：次長，我跟您報告一下。10月22號我在行政院總質詢的時候曾經問過，也希望在年底能夠完成綜規。有沒有辦法？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，行政院部分我再了解一下它的審查意見，我們是不是可以協助宜蘭縣政府來做一些什麼樣的處理。如果院有相關的意見，可能還是要相關的回復以後才可能加速行政的……"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那會後再請次長您了解看看綜規部分有沒有辦法在年底來送院核定，那這部分再回復我，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，是。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳俊宇委員。","接下來邀請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157553","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a5d3eadd1aa9b6eef44e208bd6b14da82d2987c8d96a34d1857ff7adbaa11be625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"13:26:08 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以外還有相關的獎懲,是不是?就是行政在履約上面的一個平和的部分,這個都會納入記錄。好,可是拉回來啊?"},{"start":110.498,"end":138.228,"text":"道基要檢討彩萌要檢討但更重要的是為什麼這管制區有那麼多人啊我不知道次長你有沒有看到那一天的畫面我第一時間本席看到的時候那個媒體出來的畫面我以為那是管制區外結果管制區外大家講說反而大家遵守都還不錯管制區內反而亂糟糟然後甚至很多人都進去然後會讓大家網友就講說好像現在只有我沒有管制證了那管制證到底發多少張"},{"start":139.707,"end":149.498,"text":"只會發到那一些進去裡面的人全都是有管制證嗎?還是有沒有那一天趁亂就是一個人帶一個進去?不會嘛。但管制證是不是太泛濫了?你說那個連彩蒙的經營團隊大家都有,他明顯他不是在裡面工作的人嘛,是不是?"},{"start":162.009,"end":181.567,"text":"報告委員我想當天在管制區內人會比較多是因為有來的單位有拿管制證全都進去了有來的單位比較多那有一些像比如說以我們機場公司本身我們當然有工作證那像免稅店的這些的工作同仁也有工作證"},{"start":182.168,"end":209.406,"text":"對,所以我現在講的就是說管制區內其實亂是讓國人沒有辦法接受的因為照理講管制區內既然是管制區代表說它出入就已經有管制了你如果說今天反而是管制區外沒有問題因為大家拉紅龍大家都依照遵守而且媒體也是井然有序那反而管制區內是沒有任何的規範那甚至有人講說蕭副總統接機什麼時候決定"},{"start":213.925,"end":242.437,"text":"校副總統接機什麼時候決定?這個部分因為我們機場這邊我們是配合做相關的...對 那什麼時候才告知不管是國安單位或是總統府什麼時候告知陶基說校副總統要來接機?這個可能我們要...不是啊 你是總經理你不知道因為我知道副總統會來接機但是我原則就是說哪一天...好 那有沒有找陶基開過會?如果照你講你連他什麼時候來你都不知道所以他有沒有找陶基開過會?"},{"start":244.538,"end":260.295,"text":"動線要怎麼走也不知道我們相關的接機甚至是送機這些流程在機場我們有過去已經有一些模式存在當然有模式但是今年不不不總經理這個我你的回答我沒有辦法接受喔因為這一次大家會看到這個亂象"},{"start":261.696,"end":277.909,"text":"第一當然是這個彩蒙他們有狀況但第二蕭副總統他是元首級規格整個國安團隊進入到管制區我說實在話淘機的同仁有辦法去管國安單位嗎很難嘛"},{"start":279.77,"end":282.411,"text":"adequate to the current situation."},{"start":301.54,"end":326.401,"text":"所以就代表是說是不是蕭副總統他決定接機的時間也比較晚然後也沒有找淘擠開會所以變成是說當天的狀況國安單位也應該要負起相關責任包委員不是這樣因為所有高級長官來機場的相關活動一定會有國安特勤甚至行警等各單位我們跟機場公司這邊我們會來共同就他的一個場地的動線跟佈置"},{"start":327.802,"end":340.745,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審"},{"start":348.747,"end":367.072,"text":"那事實上我想我必須承認就是說我們對於整個國人對於這整件事情的熱情真的是超過我們的想像當天來歡迎的人數不管是在管制區內或外其實都是有史以來的紀錄所以市長"},{"start":368.383,"end":389.081,"text":"該不該檢討就針對這個部分如果說連剛剛總經理講的就是說管制區內的人就變是只要我有工作證工作證的核發其實是為了工作使用才能進管制區嘛可是當天是只要有工作證的人我就想要去看中華英雄我就拿工作證進去所以才發生說所有管制區工作證的人全都進來"},{"start":391.143,"end":411.365,"text":"因為你剛講了就是你超乎你的想像所以未來針對重要的貴賓或者是我們相關的球員或者是我們的好手回來因為我相信之後WBC2026年我們中華隊也可以再創佳績那到時候不要又出現一樣的亂象"},{"start":414.169,"end":435.801,"text":"委員今天早上一直以來部長都有則由這個淘機公司要去檢討其實他的檢討就包含這個如果是以街機的話街機整體的規劃跟最後的落實度管制的落實度我想這個是包在一起的但是現在兩個部分一個是規劃有沒有規劃確實一個是落實淘機有沒有能力落實"},{"start":437.168,"end":459.414,"text":"所以這一部分呢都是需要待後續的他的檢討裡頭。什麼時候檢討報告會出來?主委去討論。包委員剛才前面何委員何新淳委員已經我們有答應是三天要提出檢討報告。好也請給本席及給我們交通委員會委員一份。那另外中華郵政的部分抱歉喔趙委再給我一分鐘啦齁。"},{"start":460.054,"end":486.222,"text":"中華郵政那個有講說12強這一次部長也已經講說會發行我們中華英雄的紀念郵票對不對非常好馬上就反映那請教現在規劃怎麼樣現在就是說我們在預計在12月底就今年年底的時候先發行一套個人化郵票那明年個人化對個人化不是郵票那但是那個紀念郵票要在明年的1月底因為這個要經過授權然後還要印刷等等"},{"start":486.482,"end":502.016,"text":"但是就是會把我們中華英雄在這一次12強的這個榮耀給凸顯出來。對對對。對不對。好。預計會發行幾套?發行一套四張。一套四張。對對對。是12月底會出來?不是一月底。"},{"start":502.056,"end":505.519,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":529.021,"end":545.411,"text":"市長請我們總經理這邊好好的規劃啦本席只是說因為有很多人的一個期待也希望都是能夠看到我們中華英雄所以特別現在郵票雖然說沒有那麼多人使用但是我們希望既然已經有規劃就好好規劃也一定是要彰顯我們這個臺灣球員的這個光榮"},{"start":550.094,"end":570.231,"text":"那之前我有提雙層巴士在高速公路的一個通勤的狀況是不是請我們今天高工局的局長我就因為時間到了請局長事後跟本席辦公室來做個報告你們現在開會的進度怎麼樣好不好司長應該是路政司司長去做討論嘛那高工局這邊來協助配合嘛對不對"},{"start":571.513,"end":573.354,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1080,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時10分）主席謝謝！麻煩請次長，以及桃園機場總經理跟中華郵政總經理。"],["主席：請陳次長、請范總經理，還有中華郵政總經理。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，直接請教，很多委員也都關心所謂的「黃巾之亂」，桃園機場這邊當然應該要檢討，采盟的合約也應該要來做確認。之前部長說無延長計畫是代表之後不會再簽約嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想這部分是不是請桃機公司來說明一下？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，因為我們原來的合約之前中間執行有碰到疫情，所以我們也依照促參法以及契約的相關規定，在去年有……"],["洪委員孟楷：延長？"],["范總經理孝倫：修約，這個部分目前就是照這個合約來執行，後續目前沒有任何其他的所謂再延長的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。相關的簽約廠商合約裡面，有沒有獎懲記點的機制？"],["范總經理孝倫：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：也有嘛？"],["范總經理孝倫：是。也跟委員報告，我們已經把這一次的缺失……"],["洪委員孟楷：亂象，甚至「蹭」。"],["范總經理孝倫：我們請廠商要提出檢討改善報告，同時記點，在今年的營運績效評估會把它納進來。同時間我們也檢討，依照契約的規定，因為它這一次的不當行為已經造成我們機場營運的影響，我們會依照契約規定給予懲罰性的處罰。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不只是罰100萬？"],["范總經理孝倫：就是罰100萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們看到媒體講說是罰100萬，那除了罰100萬以外，還有相關的獎懲是不是？"],["范總經理孝倫：是。就是行政在履約上面的一個評核的部分，這個都會納入紀錄。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。可是，拉回來，桃機要檢討，采盟要檢討，但更重要的是為什麼管制區有那麼多人？我不知道次長你有沒有看到那天的畫面？"],["陳次長彥伯：我有。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席第一時間看到媒體出來的畫面，我以為那是管制區外，結果大家說管制區外大家遵守得都還不錯，管制區內反而亂糟糟。甚至很多人都進去，然後網友就講說好像現在只有我沒有管制證。管制證到底發多少張？那一些進去裡面的人全都有管制證嗎？還是有沒有那一天趁亂，就是一個人帶一個進去？不會嘛！但管制證是不是太氾濫了？你說連采盟的經營團隊大家都有，明顯他不是在裡面工作的人嘛！是不是？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，我想當天在管制區內人會比較多，是因為有來的單位……"],["洪委員孟楷：有拿管制證的全都進去了？"],["范總經理孝倫：有來的單位比較多。比如說以我們機場公司本身，我們當然有工作證，像免稅店的這些工作同仁也有工作證。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，所以我現在講的就是，管制區內亂是讓國人沒有辦法接受的，因為照理講，既然是管制區，代表說它出入就已經有管制了。如果說今天是在管制區外，沒有問題，因為大家拉紅龍，大家都依照遵守，而且媒體也是井然有序；反而管制區內是沒有任何的規範，甚至有人講說，蕭副總統接機什麼時候決定？"],["范總經理孝倫：這個部分因為我們機場這邊是配合做相關的後續作業。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，那什麼時候才告知？不管是國安單位或總統府，什麼時候告知桃機說蕭副總統要來接機？"],["范總經理孝倫：這個可能我們要……"],["陳次長彥伯：這個可能要再了解一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是！你是總經理，你不知道？"],["范總經理孝倫：我知道副總統會來接機，但是委員質詢說哪一天……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那有沒有找桃機開過會？如果照你講，你連他什麼時候來你都不知道，所以他也沒有找桃機開過會？動線要怎麼走也不知道？"],["范總經理孝倫：跟委員報告，我們相關的接機，甚至是送機這些流程，在機場我們過去已經有一些模式存在……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然有模式，但是今年……不！不！不！總經理，你的回答我沒有辦法接受哦！因為這一次大家會看到這個亂象，第一，當然是采盟他們有狀況；但第二，蕭副總統他是元首級規格，整個國安團隊進入到管制區，我說實在話，桃機的同仁有辦法去管國安單位嗎？很難嘛！如果今天蕭副總統進去說我就是要這樣走，我們桃機的同仁也變成說我們就只能配合，但是這會變成一個什麼狀況？就變成說現在所有交通部門要桃機檢討，結果你檢討到最後可以檢討出什麼？你如果說你沒有辦法、你的層級不夠高，下次面對到一樣的狀況，你還是只能雙手一攤啊！"],["范總經理孝倫：是，跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以就代表是不是蕭副總統他決定接機的時間也比較晚，然後也沒有找桃機開會，所以變成當天的狀況國安單位也應該要負起相關責任？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，不是這樣，因為所有高級長官來機場的相關活動一定會有國安、特勤，甚至航警等各單位，他們跟機場公司這邊會來共同就場地的動線跟布置事先做一些討論跟現場的勘察和規劃。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以當天是有討論、勘察，但是出現到這樣的狀況？"],["范總經理孝倫：之前就已經有，那……"],["洪委員孟楷：那就代表是執行的問題？"],["范總經理孝倫：也跟委員報告，的確我們當天比如說有拍照區的規劃、有夾道歡迎區的規劃等等，事實上我想我必須承認，就是國人對於這整件事情的熱情真的是超過我們的想像。當天來歡迎的人數，不管是在管制區內或外，其實都是有史以來的紀錄。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。次長，所以該不該檢討？就針對這個部分，如果連剛剛總經理講的，就是說管制區內的人就變成是只要我有工作證，工作證的核發其實是為了工作使用才能進管制區嘛！可是當天是只要有工作證的人，我就想要去看中華英雄，我就拿工作證進去，所以才發生說所有有管制區工作證的人全都進來，對不對？因為你剛講了嘛！就是超乎你的想像嘛！所以未來針對重要的貴賓或者是我們相關的球員，或者是我們的好手回來，因為我相信之後WBC2026年我們中華隊也可以再創佳績啊！那到時候不要又出現一樣的亂象啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，今天早上一直以來，部長都有責由桃機公司要去檢討。其實它的檢討就包含，如果是以接機的話，接機整體的規劃跟最後管制的落實度，我想這個是包在一起的。所以有委員剛剛特別提到……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是現在兩個部分：一個是規劃，有沒有規劃確實；一個是落實，桃機有沒有能力落實。"],["陳次長彥伯：所以這一部分都是需要待後續它的檢討裡頭……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候檢討報告會出來？"],["陳次長彥伯：逐一去討論。"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，剛才前面何欣純委員質詢的時候，我們已經有答應是3天要提出檢討報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，也請給本席以及給我們交通委員會委員一份。抱歉！召委，再給我1分鐘。另外中華郵政的部分，這一次部長也已經說12強會發行中華英雄的紀念郵票，對不對？"],["江總經理瑞堂：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，馬上就反映。請教現在規劃怎麼樣？"],["江總經理瑞堂：就是我們預計在12月底，就今年年底的時候先發行一套個人化郵票，那明年1月……"],["洪委員孟楷：個人化？"],["江總經理瑞堂：對，個人化，不是郵票。但是紀念郵票要在明年的1月底，因為這個要經過授權，然後還要印刷等等。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是就是會把我們中華英雄在這一次12強的榮耀給突顯出來，對不對？"],["江總經理瑞堂：對，就是針對這個事件。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，預計會發行幾套？"],["江總經理瑞堂：發行一套4張。"],["洪委員孟楷：一套4張？"],["江總經理瑞堂：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是12月底會出來？"],["江總經理瑞堂：不是，1月底。"],["洪委員孟楷：1月底會出來？"],["江總經理瑞堂：紀念郵票。"],["洪委員孟楷：那12月會出來什麼？"],["江總經理瑞堂：那是個人化郵票，大概1萬套。這個不是郵票發行，是個人化郵票，這個一般人都可以要求、可以印的。就是說郵票上面可以放你的照片等等，這個比較容易，不必經過授權。"],["洪委員孟楷：那這跟中華英雄12強有什麼關係？"],["江總經理瑞堂：就是以它為主題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦！次長，請總經理這邊好好地規劃啦！本席只是說因為有很多人的期待，也希望都是能夠看到我們中華英雄，所以特別現在郵票雖然說沒有那麼多人使用，但是我們希望既然已經有規劃就好好規劃，也一定是要彰顯我們臺灣球員的光榮。之前我有提雙層巴士在高速公路通勤的狀況……"],["主席：時間到了。洪委員！"],["洪委員孟楷：因為時間到了，是不是請高公局局長事後跟本席辦公室報告你們現在開會的進度怎麼樣，好不好？應該是路政司司長去做討論嘛！那高公局這邊來協助配合嘛！對不對？已經一個多月了。"],["林司長福山：簡單跟委員報告一下，現在有請車安中心協助幫忙蒐集國外的資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是本席一直沒有看到進度。"],["林司長福山：對，因為目前還在蒐集國外的資料，包括倫敦、包括香港……"],["洪委員孟楷：好。因為這個議題其實我之前就講過，共同生活圈非常重視……"],["主席：洪委員，時間到了。"],["洪委員孟楷：北北基桃、中彰投、雲嘉南、高高屏其實都會有需要，所以這個有進度請跟本席辦公室來做一個update，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來邀請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157550","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a73e1397244721fd744e208bd6b14da82d2987c8d96a34d18a86133156bd620685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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to the requirement of the bill."},{"start":136.196,"end":159.24,"text":"這一個工程我們看到要分兩期但是它的總長是18公里總經費當時是匡147.9億但是因為缺工原物料上漲現在是把它編列到202億預計在2030年完工那在這個當中我要講另外一件事因為還記得嗎2021年的時候"},{"start":162.981,"end":191.453,"text":"也不是颱風只不過是西南氣流的影響連日的暴雨結果造成明巴克路橋的一個災害當時呢這幾年有很多的民代包括當天桃園區的一個議員叫高中的議員他也非常關心他親自前往因為這幾年不論是都市委區長或者高清源主席地方所有的民代"},{"start":192.313,"end":211.156,"text":"他們都主張是不是可以從明巴克路橋的那個地區施作高架的道路到復興部落建立一個穩固長期不會因為下雨颱風就被阻斷的道路所以呢我想要請大家就是看一下齁"},{"start":211.997,"end":213.098,"text":" bicyclist 審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":233.601,"end":245.733,"text":"那麼像這樣的一條道路我就是想問光是從103年到113年這十年間這個情何到復興路段請教一下大概花了多少錢"},{"start":249.571,"end":270.138,"text":"因為他大概就是有一些是災害搶修的費用然後目前就是說我們還有就是要做中期的這個提升所以他有大概有好幾塊那災害搶修的部分這幾年其實大概就是我們這個有一些變道或者是像這一個跨預稅溪的這個明霸克路橋"},{"start":271.058,"end":292.2,"text":"大概就是說這個每一次大概都是有把它修完,大概10億左右,不過目前其實我們現在已經有一個中期的一個跨預稅期的這個民放科學獎提升的一個計畫,變道也有一個提升的計畫。謝謝局長,因為這個路段大概是5公里,"},{"start":293.157,"end":297.438,"text":"adequate to the total length of 18 km."},{"start":297.438,"end":299.438,"text":"The total length of 18 km."},{"start":299.438,"end":301.659,"text":"The total length of 18 km."},{"start":301.659,"end":303.879,"text":"The total length of 18 km."},{"start":303.879,"end":307.06,"text":"The total length of 18 km."},{"start":307.06,"end":308.78,"text":"The total length of 18 km."},{"start":308.78,"end":310.22,"text":"The total length of 18 km."},{"start":310.22,"end":312.121,"text":"The total length of 18 km."},{"start":322.483,"end":345.572,"text":"獎項獎項獎"},{"start":346.072,"end":374.213,"text":"這樣子延老農稀施作可以減少徵收可以遠離傷悶地滑然後呢你們採取的工法呢是採深基礎用築銷的工法加大橋樑的垮具好那種種這些大家都覺得可行性很高然後呢也要做了已經凍土了所以我想要問就是如果我們講的那5K路段有沒有可能比照這樣的一個態度工法有沒有可能"},{"start":378.354,"end":391.067,"text":"目前已經通車了沿著河床的便道在做只是因為老榮溪現在的河川調查還是不穩定目前的計畫是中期提升計畫中期提升計畫包括"},{"start":397.634,"end":398.995,"text":"公路局及所屬單公路局及所屬單公路局及所屬單"},{"start":423.59,"end":431.096,"text":"我們經常走都很了解那麼長的好幾K竟然我們的路面跟河床都騎高了"},{"start":432.455,"end":459.924,"text":"那如果說我們不去提升提高或者做這種高價道路我不曉得未來的10年20年我們到底要砸多少錢重點是一直在修復永遠在修復居民永遠都是交通不便這不是我們樂見的那個地方也不要去想遷村也沒有地方可以遷村大家也不會願意遷村所以我覺得怎麼樣去做一個永續"},{"start":461.124,"end":484.663,"text":"安全的道路就像沿著老龍溪做這件事我們多麼羨慕多麼渴望我希望把這件事情把它放在心裡那我覺得跟居民的溝通讓大家看見我們的想法我們沒有忘記在地居民的想法但是我們要讓大家知道我們要怎麼規劃怎麼做然後達成符合他們需求這樣可以嗎"},{"start":486.51,"end":487.01,"text":"市長提到是有一個中期的規劃"},{"start":504.156,"end":530.963,"text":"那中期的規劃裡頭一定會考量到這個民意大家的需求所以看你這張圖的這個最後是下去的到達巴士努安橋據我的了解他到時候會跨過會往前延伸所以整整的也就是你剛剛講高價的一個想法會在這裡頭做實現對一定要永久性的橋樑高價的橋樑對只是你講一下永久性的橋樑可能還要再考量沒有什麼不可能你看我們提出的25年前的想法"},{"start":531.343,"end":557.379,"text":"不就實現了嗎?但是我跟委員報告一個中期安全的橋樑我們一定會達到,我們一定會做到。好,那謝謝次長您上次幫我就是親自主持露營場的第4次會議那有幾項決議,刪除土石流潛水區類型剩餘90%的土地供無痕露營使用,原保地適用原住民圖管規則還有呢,我們露營場合法化,你們把預算"},{"start":558.3,"end":567.206,"text":"本來是拿來輔導竟然上面有說要補助地方政府的違法稽查作業費。我想當年我們爭取那筆經費是輔導。那像這一些我希望趕快修訂趕快頒布。可以嗎?可以,我們會督促公共學習作業。好,公文趕快發。是是是。好,謝謝市長,謝謝局長,謝謝主席。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1048,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時）謝謝主席。我有請交通部次長，以及公路局陳局長，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳彥伯次長、陳局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好、局長好。11月24日，前幾天，我有一同參與新威大橋到里港交流道的動土典禮工程。為什麼我要去？因為就如同卓院長那天說的，他說這一條除了是救命的道路，也是產業發展之路。對屏東大三地門地區、對高雄的茂林區、對桃源區，其實這一條路很重要，因為它除了救災、防災，也有救護的功能，也有農產品運輸的功能，更有觀光的功能。對我們來講，還能夠減少到市區或者是新左營高鐵站的距離、時間，大概是可以減少半小時左右，所以這是一件很令人振奮的事情。","但是，我今天來，也要跟各位透露一個訊息，可能是你們不知道的訊息，他請我一定要來表達。當年，2001年，23年前，茂林鄉鄉長張正信在茂林的鄉勘就已經有把這樣的事情透露出來。當時他希望南二高的旗山支線能夠沿著荖濃溪一直開到當時成立的茂林風景區，他當時就有這樣的訴求。那今天，23年之後能夠實現，他也覺得很高興，但是就是覺得時間好久喔！而且當時只盼來了一個新威大橋。我們看到這個工程要分兩期，但是它的總長是18公里，總經費當時是匡147.9億元，但是因為缺工及原物料上漲，現在是把它編列到202億元，預計在2030年完工。","在這當中我要講另外一件事，還記得嗎？2021年的時候，也不是颱風，只不過是西南氣流的影響，連日的暴雨，結果造成明霸克露橋的災害。這幾年有很多的民代，包括當天桃源區的高忠德議員也非常關心，他親自前往。因為這幾年不論是杜司偉區長或者高清源主席，地方所有的民代都主張是不是可以從明霸克露橋的那個地區施做高架的道路到復興部落，建立一個穩固、長期，不會因為下雨、颱風就被阻斷的道路。","所以我想要請大家看一下，那樣的一個高架橋，我們這幾年地方的民代也不斷地訴求。從莫拉克風災以來，這一段路真的很辛苦、很辛苦！因為經常斷路，經常要自己背負重物，然後造成觀光的損失等等。像這樣的一條道路，我就是想問，光是從103年到113年這10年間，請教一下勤和到復興路段大概花了多少錢？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為它有一些是災害搶修的費用……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["陳局長文瑞：目前我們就是還有要做中期的提升，所以它大概有好幾塊啦！至於災害搶修的部分，這幾年就是我們有一些便道或者是像跨玉穗溪的明霸克露橋，每一次都有把它修完，大概10億元左右。不過其實我們現在已經有一個跨玉穗溪的明霸克露橋提升的中期計畫，然後便道也有一個提升的計畫。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝局長。因為這一個路段大概是5公里，那剛才我們講的從新威一直到市區總長18公里，平均起來每公里大概是8億元，原物料上漲之後，每公里大概是11億元。如果以這個5公里來講，其實這個錢也不是很多。但是我們看一下，以今年來講，從7月的凱米、山陀兒、康芮到天兔，這4個月斷路4次，修復的工程不斷，我只想說這樣的工程都完成了嗎？後續的工程會如何規劃？因為時間的關係，等一下我們一次回答。","我們看一下，這一次為了這個沿著荖濃溪，你們有提到，因為這樣子沿荖濃溪施做可以減少徵收、可以遠離山崩地滑，然後你們採取的工法是採深基礎，用竹削的工法，加大橋梁的跨距。種種這些大家都覺得可行性很高，然後也要做了，已經動土了。所以我想要問，我們講的那5k路段有沒有可能比照這樣的一個態度、工法？有沒有可能？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，目前這一個已經通車了，就是沿著河床的便道在做。只是經過我們調查，荖濃溪的河川其實還是不穩定，所以目前的計畫是中期的提升計畫。中期提升計畫包括就是跨玉穗溪的橋梁要提高，另外就是因為河床便道太靠近河床了，容易大雨、豪雨就把它沖刷了，所以我們現在河床便道也要提高20米，會連接跨玉穗溪的橋梁。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["陳局長文瑞：中期部分完成，接下來會來調查，它的地質、地貌穩定之後會有長期的計畫。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，要有這樣的規劃。局長您剛剛一直提，我們經常走都很了解，那麼長的好幾K，竟然我們的路面跟河床都齊高了。如果說我們不去提升、提高，或者做這種高架道路，我不曉得未來的10年、20年我們到底要砸多少錢？重點是一直在修復，永遠在修復，居民永遠都是交通不便，這不是我們樂見的。那個地方也不要去想遷村，也沒有地方可以遷村，大家也不會願意遷村。所以我覺得怎麼樣去做一個永續、安全的道路，就像沿著荖濃溪做這件事，我們多麼羨慕、多麼渴望。我希望把這件事情放在心裡，跟居民溝通，讓大家看見我們的想法。我們沒有忘記在地居民的想法，但是我們要讓大家知道我們要怎麼規劃、怎麼做，然後達成、符合他們的需求，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：可以。我跟委員簡單回應兩件事情。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["陳次長彥伯：就是剛才講的，一個道路總是要永久性，其實就是有很多的條件要去成就它。因為這個地方是一個災損的地區，剛才局長特別提到，所以我們是有一個中期的規劃，中期的規劃裡頭一定會考量到民意大家的需求。所以看你這張圖最後是下去的，到達班順努安橋。據我的了解，它到時候會跨過、會往前延伸，所以你剛才講的高架的想法會在這裡頭做施行。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，一定要！"],["陳次長彥伯：至於永久性的橋梁，可能需要一個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：永久性的橋梁、高架的橋梁。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，只是你講永久性的橋梁，可能還要再考量。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有什麼不可能。你看我們提出的25年前的想法，不就實現了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：但是我跟委員報告，一個中期、安全的橋梁，我們一定會達到，我們一定會做到，以上。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。謝謝次長，您上次幫我親自主持露營場的第4次會議，有幾項決議：刪除土石流潛勢區類型、剩餘90%的土地供無痕露營使用、原保地適用原住民土管規則。還有我們露營場合法化，你們把預算本來是拿來輔導，竟然上面有說要補助地方政府的違法稽查作業費。我想當年我們爭取那筆經費是輔導，像這一些我希望趕快修訂、趕快頒布，可以嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：可以，我們會督促觀光署繼續作業。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，公文趕快發。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長，謝謝局長，謝謝主席。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來邀請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157549","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157549","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177afbee3244f5191d139efc61e85f95edfbd2987c8d96a34d1896fa539d5614b54a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"13:30:02 - 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政部的部分就對於如果預算要支出的話那財源如何的籌措那所以在我們的報告裡面也寫得很清楚"},{"start":205.922,"end":206.102,"text":"臺電開源意見?"},{"start":227.573,"end":251.521,"text":"臺電的開源的節流我想開源的部分那是臺電他們公司治理的部分他們自己處理就對了這我本期今天花點時間去提持其實很擔心就是說這個東西你特案處理然後一千億送上來然後講說萬一不通過可能就要漲電價又把它變成一個政治化的題目但是我們要從制度的角度去看如果財主單位過去對於既有的部門都有一定的把關跟把控但是對於追加預算我認為應該更加嚴格"},{"start":252.481,"end":278.762,"text":"因為追加預算是特案啊可是看起來好像沒有特別的嚴格也沒有特別的說明也沒有特別的條件這本席非常擔心啊我希望可以建立一套新的機制啦針對追加預算的部分你財主單位更應該嚴格把控比如說像我們之前過去當然我們是從立法院站在監督的角度就是說你台電比如財務的報告或怎麼樣來講你才有辦法說服人民嘛你如果政府內控連這一段都做不到都沒有辦法落實的話那我對於這個一千億要怎麼通過本席是比較悲觀的"},{"start":279.002,"end":287.77,"text":"希望財主單位針對追加預算部分的制度設計,你的把關機制跟條件要更加嚴格,這是本席的提醒好不好,請兩位稍作思考,謝謝以上。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1074,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時29分）謝謝主席，我請主計長及財政部部長備詢，謝謝。"],["主席：請主計長及財政部部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：午安，辛苦了！大部分的公務機關、公部門，大家最害怕的常常都是財主單位，為什麼是財主單位呢？基本上，我們要執行政策一定要用錢嘛！原則上，財政部管收入、主計總處管支出，對不對？入與出之間，你們應該都有若干的內控機制，對不對？下到各個部門都有內控機制，對不對？他們要開什麼計畫、要提報什麼預算，有一定的格式與規則、有一定的稽核，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：是，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它提報計畫是按照它的需求，我們再按照財源做分配。"],["牛委員煦庭：按照財源做匹配，對不對？因此，基本上，歷年編列一般預算其實都要經過你們的三管五卡，當然這是基於財政紀律的良善出發，對不對？好，我今天的問題如下，針對1,000億的追加預算，在追加預算的時候，這個主計單位的把關與內控機制是什麼？有沒有這樣的機制？有沒有這樣的檢討？請說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一個，它提出需求。第二個，要再看這件事情是否符合相關的規範。因為當初這個部分涉及到民生物價穩定的問題，也是屬於重大事件，所以我們在初步過濾上是有考量這個因素。"],["牛委員煦庭：追加預算通常都有一定的政治意義，它是一個緊急的項目也好、或是一個特殊的項目也好，所以你必須要獨立出來討論，它不是按照既有編列預算的流程進行。我很好奇，你平常對於這些按照規矩來的單位有很嚴格的把關程序，但是追加預算的時候，剛剛主計長回答得很清楚，它是一個重大特殊的考量，對於民生物價衝擊甚鉅，那麼它會不會快速通關啊？這次台電提列說要追加1,000億預算的時候，你們給它什麼樣的條件？還是就無害放行，因為它是一個高度政治敏感的題目？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分也有召開審查會進行審查，進行審查是考慮它的需要性，所以才會核列。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們審查時有沒有要求它提什麼條件，避免這樣的事不再發生？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當然是要儘量避免這樣的情況發生，問題是它目前的虧損，在民生的部分是2,800億、在產業的部分是4,000億，總共就有6,800億左右，因此，也是希望能改善它的財務狀況，讓整個台電的執行能夠更順暢。"],["牛委員煦庭：你看嘛！從支出把關的角度，你一定要要求它提出一個相關的配套、計畫及方案，避免這樣的事再發生，這就是節流，對不對？開源的部分，財政部長，你們也審查嗎？或是原則上這個東西由主計處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：預算的編列是在主計總處，財政部是負責財源的籌措。"],["牛委員煦庭：財源的籌措，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們有沒有關切過台電如何開源？"],["莊部長翠雲：台電如何開源是屬於台電的公司治理，在財政部的部分，如果預算要支出的話，財源如何籌措，所以我們的報告也寫得很清楚，如果要舉債的話，我們必須做債務的控管，因為債務控管在公共債務法是有一定的規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：繼續舉債就血流成河了，大家都清楚啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，但是我們也知道，事實上，最後它會用歲計賸餘來支應，所以在債務的控管上是可以達到什麼樣的……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們有沒有給台電什麼樣的開源意見？"],["莊部長翠雲：開源是屬於台電公司治理的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們自己處理就對了。本席今天花了一點時間提問，其實是因為很擔心，你們將這個東西以特案處理，1,000億就送上來，萬一不通過可能就要漲電價，於是又將它變成一個政治化的題目。但是我們要從制度的角度去看，如果財主單位過去對於既有部門都有一定的把關及把控，我認為對於追加預算就應該更加嚴格，因為追加預算是特案啊！但是看起來好像並沒有特別的嚴格、也沒有特別的說明、也沒有特別的條件，所以本席非常擔心啊！我希望可以建立一套新的機制，針對追加預算的部分，財主單位更應該嚴格把控。當然我們是從立法院站在監督的角度，譬如台電要有財務的報告或其他，這樣才有辦法說服人民嘛！如果政府內控連這一段都做不到、都沒辦法落實，對於這筆1,000億要如何通過，本席是比較悲觀的。希望財主單位針對追加預算的制度設計，你的把關機制及條件要更加嚴格，以上是本席的提醒，請兩位稍作思考，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員。","接著請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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我說財務的狀況會持續惡化因為委員問我會不會破產 我一直沒有這樣講所以你不是這樣子講因為其實現在台電在資產裡面還有一項我覺得大家有一點鴕鳥心態就是核四因為現在核四兩千多億還是列在台電資產裡面但你現在核四就是沒有要重啟沒有要使用了所以這個資產有跟沒有好像差異不大不然你核四現在要怎麼處理"},{"start":55.173,"end":56.274,"text":"這2000多億的資產你要怎麼處理?"},{"start":75.27,"end":99.3,"text":"應該要這樣子講,就是說他後段就是他剩下的如果沒有辦法發揮其他作用的部分,他就會進到是不是在會計上面要認定。認列的方式也有很多種財務上的做法。比方說德國當年在要求他的核電廠停下來的時候,他有設計一些做法。那這些相關的做法我們可能都還要再跟那個相關的單位做討論了。"},{"start":102.441,"end":104.964,"text":"我會想說為什麼你們好意思列因為你們現在就是沒有要用核四了嘛"},{"start":123.313,"end":149.118,"text":"他一直就是擺在那個地方對他擺在那裡但是沒有要用嘛那你原本新建你會預估到他未來的回收嘛就是他發電然後他怎麼營運然後如何如何你現在沒有要用所以你即便把他列為2800多億在那邊可是他實際上是沒有辦法幫台電獲利嘛所以我覺得你要面對現實啦不要好像都一直駝鳥心態那另外我想跟你請教一下"},{"start":149.818,"end":167.564,"text":"因為這個國智慧部長講阿他說這兩千億阿撥補到即便是撥補到台電不能確保台電一定不會漲電價那我記得好像您也有講過一樣的話就是說兩千億撥補進去不見得一定不會漲未來不見得不會漲電價等一下委員你剛才講國部長講的話對"},{"start":171.405,"end":193.441,"text":"我不知道他是什麼時候講的今天早上他並不是這樣講我跟你講他怎麼講他講說兩千億波普進去他說他不能夠保證說兩千億波普進去之後一定不會漲電價他的說法是如果有漲電價的話他下台他是這樣子所以如果有漲電價的話他就下台但是他不能保證說一定不會漲電價"},{"start":194.704,"end":210.648,"text":"但是我要講的是說其實我們並不關心他下不下台啊我們關心的是台電每次一直叫大家撥補撥補撥補然後不去考慮營運的改善或者是降低發電成本結果最後郭部長走了其實台灣人沒什麼人在乎他走不走啊"},{"start":211.188,"end":238.495,"text":"臺灣在乎的是電價會不會無止境地上漲所以你應該要保證你這一次跟立法院要這2000億那未來是多久不會漲電價你可以控制一定的營運能力可以讓臺電的公司的體質恢復到比較良好這個是我們國人想要知道的這才比較重要我不知道您您的立場或者是您能做出怎樣的保證我要跟委員說明一個事情第一個就是電價就不是臺電決定我想這個您很清楚但是臺電營運好一點的話"},{"start":240.996,"end":248.403,"text":"我剛才有在答詢的時候不斷地強調一點就是說電價審議委員會都會把這個補貼如果進來以後整個台電的財務狀況來做總體的考慮那如果改善的幅度就讓他作為考慮好 謝謝謝謝燕姿委員接著劉勛廷委員諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1043,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時25分）麻煩請台電。"],["主席：請台電曾文生董事長。"],["曾董事長文生：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：董事長好。董事長，你提到如果立法院沒有給你2,000億的撥補，可能就會讓台電破產，對不對？早上你是不是有這樣講？"],["曾董事長文生：我沒有這樣講，而是說財務狀況會持續惡化。"],["葉委員元之：持續惡化？"],["曾董事長文生：因為委員有問我會不會破產，但我一直沒有這樣講。"],["葉委員元之：所以你不是這樣講。其實在台電的資產中還有一項，我覺得大家有一點鴕鳥心態，就是核四的部分。因為核四的二千多億還是列在台電的資產中，但是現在核四沒有要重啟、沒有要使用，所以這個資產有或沒有好像差異不大啦！不然，現在核四要怎麼處理？二千多億的資產要怎麼處理？"],["曾董事長文生：現在這些資產能夠運用的就儘量拿來運用。"],["葉委員元之：你認為二千多億的資產運用完之後，大概實際上的資產是什麼？因為它現在已經無法讓你們發電，你要如何運用來保持它二千多億的價值？你要怎麼做？"],["曾董事長文生：應該要這樣講，如果它剩下的部分無法發揮其他作用，是不是就要在會計上認列。"],["葉委員元之：你什麼時候要開始進行……"],["曾董事長文生：認列的方式也有很多種財務上的作法，譬如德國當年要求它的核電廠停下來時就設計了一些作法，至於這些相關的作法，我們可能都還要再與相關單位討論，但是還沒有到這個程度。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候要進行這個動作？"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在都在做讓資產能夠活化的規劃。"],["葉委員元之：大概嘛！因為我……"],["曾董事長文生：舉例來講……"],["葉委員元之：等一下，每次看到核四被你們列為二千八百多億的資產，我就在想為什麼你們好意思列啊！因為現在你們就是沒有要用核四了嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：委員，它一直就是擺在那個地方。"],["葉委員元之：對，它擺在那裡，但是沒有要用嘛！原本在興建時會預估到它未來的回收，包括發電、如何營運、如何如何，但是現在沒有要用，即便你將它列為二千八百多億在那邊，實際上它就沒辦法幫台電獲利嘛！我覺得你要面對現實，不要好像一直都是鴕鳥心態。","另外，我想向你請教一下，郭智輝部長說，即便2,000億撥補給台電也不能確保台電一定不會漲電價，我記得你好像也講過一樣的話，就是2,000億撥補進去，未來不見得不會漲電價。"],["曾董事長文生：等一下，委員，你剛剛說是郭部長講的話？"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["曾董事長文生：我不知道他是什麼時候講的，但是今天早上他並不是這樣講。"],["葉委員元之：我告訴你，他是怎麼講的，他說他不能夠保證2,000億撥補進去之後一定不會漲電價。他的說法是如果有漲電價的話，他就下台。因此，如果有漲電價的話，他就會下台，但是他不能保證一定不會漲電價。其實我們並不關心他下不下台，我們關心的是台電每次都一直要大家撥補、撥補、撥補，卻不去考慮營運的改善或是降低發電成本，如果最後郭部長走了，其實臺灣沒什麼人在乎他走不走，臺灣人在乎的是電價會不會無止境的上漲。因此，你應該要保證，這次向立法院要這筆2,000億，未來是多久不會漲電價，你可以控制一定的營運能力，可以讓台電的公司體質恢復到比較良好，這才是我們國人想要知道的，這才是比較重要的，不知道你的立場如何？或是你能做出怎麼樣的保證？"],["曾董事長文生：我要向委員說明一件事情，第一個，電價並不是台電決定，我想你也很清楚。但是我剛才一直在……"],["葉委員元之：如果台電的營運好一點的話，大家就會認為不需要漲嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：剛才我在答詢時有不斷的強調一點，如果補貼進來之後，電價審議委員會就會對台電的財務狀況做總體的考慮，如果改善的幅度不夠大，他們就會考慮……"],["葉委員元之：我的時間到了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接著是牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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郭部長請郭部長那順便我要問的議題或許這個國貿署"},{"start":30.027,"end":56.389,"text":"產發署還有制裁局或許會跟你們有一些關係這幾週前因為我們有一個主題在CPTPP但本席長期也很關注整個臺灣的經濟在國際間的一個發展因為我本身在文化上的專業不過我先談一下這件事情當然我們現在還在這個過程當中"},{"start":58.23,"end":75.341,"text":"但是從我學生時代的WTO一直到這個TPP然後一直到現在的CPTPP我們都知道當然有一些過程當中的緩解是我們一直要克服的但是在這過程我們當然也是要做一些準備所以本席這邊想要提問的是在農漁業等這一些產業可能在如果未來我們有機會進去了之後呢會碰到的這些問題我想請教一下這個部長那我們在經濟發展的同時"},{"start":88.229,"end":104.906,"text":"這個部分我們在國際間會碰到什麼樣的衝擊跟我們怎麼去因應?謝謝我們現在目前這個CPTPP這個當然很積極的要加入但是這個CPTPP它有幾個基本原則"},{"start":106.746,"end":126.273,"text":"這是他們要共識決,所以我們都還在努力啦,都還在努力。 這個我本來是待會要問啦,不過部長您先提到了,就是我們有沒有一些評估在他們這個共識決的一個困難下,我們加入的一個期程可能性?"},{"start":126.793,"end":127.014,"text":"共識決是最關鍵的一個問題"},{"start":143.015,"end":165.951,"text":"所以部裡面有沒有一些預期或者是我們都跟其他的這個會員在已經在裡面的會員我們都跟他多交流啦因為這個誠信是他們一個非常重要的一個選項那我們相信我們一貫以來我們在外交上面我們在這個各方面都表現我們是一個被信任的國家"},{"start":166.852,"end":166.872,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":181.789,"end":181.949,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":198.909,"end":202.99,"text":"北溪過往的經驗一直是碰到在外交卡住的時候我們就用文化去做一個推動"},{"start":220.214,"end":237.91,"text":"所以我這邊比較關心的是我們在關稅減免跟文化產業的一個競爭那當然如果有機會加入那關稅的部分勢必也是一個我們要處理的區塊那不知道部裡面有沒有像韓國的文化產業這樣子的一個是日本或是韓國有這樣專責的單位機構來處理這樣一個對外關係上對我們的一個衝擊跟影響"},{"start":244.716,"end":244.836,"text":"發言人"},{"start":260.853,"end":284.881,"text":"這個部分就是在文化部裡面他們會形成一些議題然後交給OTN他們談判辦公室他們去做一些整理我想在未來的發展大概就是持續由OTN在進行那所以這個部分也請OTN是不是給我更清楚的一個我們目前因應的狀況可以嗎好這是 謝謝簡單回應就好了可以"},{"start":290.092,"end":311.363,"text":"這是我比較關注的部分 最後我做一個從民眾的觀點 未來我會更深度的跟部裡面來探討能源的議題但是我可能簡單的問一下 我們知道明年要撥補 是不是部長這邊我想很清楚的了解一下 我們整體是不是在電費的這個部分會漲很多"},{"start":311.963,"end":332.609,"text":"跟委員報告,撥補一千億是在改善臺電的財務情形。臺電借的錢蠻多的。這個撥補一千億,我們大概一年要花200多億的利息。這個撥補可以改善我們財務的狀況,大概是這樣子。跟電價沒有關係,電價是由電價審議委員他們決定的。"},{"start":338.217,"end":346.34,"text":"響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1203,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時33分）謝謝召委，我們立院同仁跟行政單位的夥伴們，大家早安，大家好。我是不是可以先請經濟部長，我要問的議題可能還跟國貿署、產發署、智財局會有一些關係。"],["主席：請郭部長、國貿署、產發署、智財局上台。"],["林委員倩綺：幾週前因為我們有一個主題在CPTPP，本席長期也很關注臺灣的整個經濟在國際間的發展，我本身是文化上的專業，不過我要先談一下這件事情，我們現在還在這個過程中，就是從我學生時代的WTO，到TPP，一直到現在的CPTPP。我們都知道，過程當中的一些環節是我們一直要克服的，但是在這過程裡面，我們當然也是要做一些準備。所以本席這邊想要問的是，就農漁等產業來說，如果未來我們有機會進去了之後，會碰到的這些問題。我想請教部長，在經濟發展的同時，我們的這個部分在國際間會碰到什麼樣的衝擊？我們怎麼去因應？謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：目前我們當然很積極的要加入CPTPP，但是CPTPP有幾個基本原則，就是他們要共識決，所以我們都還在努力。"],["林委員倩綺：是，這個部分我本來是待會要問，不過部長先提到了，那麼我們有沒有一些評估，就是在這個共識決的困難下，我們加入的期程及它的可能性，我不知道您這邊或部裡面有沒有相關的預估？這是我待會要問的一個問題，當然也不是我今天的主要問題，我主要是問我們在這個過程當中怎麼去因應？因為您提到了共識決，其實這也是我們能否加入最關鍵的一個問題。所以部裡面有沒有一些預期，或者是……"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經跟在裡面的會員多交流，因為誠信是他們一個非常重要的選項，我們相信，我們一貫以來在外交上面，在各方面都表現出我們是一個被信任的國家，所以我們的機會非常高。具體的部分，我是不是請國貿署署長跟你報告？"],["林委員倩綺：好的，署長是不是會後在這個部分可以給我更細緻一點的報告？因為我從學生時代就滿關心WTO這個問題，不過，相對應這個問題，我今天比較關心我要問的主題，所以會後是不是有機會就這個部分提書面，或者是跟本席辦公室約定時間，我們針對這個部分，來了解一下目前的進度，以及過程當中可能要個別處理的問題，好不好？"],["江署長文若：是。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。剛才部長也談到我們在外交這個層面，其實跟這件事情也有很大的關係。就本席過往的經驗，我們在外交卡住的時候，就用文化去推動，所以本席比較關心的是，我們在關稅減免跟文化產業的競爭，如果有機會加入，那麼關稅的部分勢必也是一個我們要處理的區塊，不知道部裡面對文化產業有沒有像日本或韓國，有這樣一個專責單位、機構，來處理對外關係上，對我們的衝擊跟影響？連帶的部分，當然還有智慧財產權保護相關的機制。文化產業、智慧財產權，假設未來我們這個平臺能夠嫁接的話，我們所受到的衝擊，跟我們目前的準備，究竟如何？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分在文化部裡面，他們會形成一些議題，然後交給OTN經貿談判辦公室去做一些整理。我想未來的發展，大概就持續由OTN在進行。"],["林委員倩綺：所以這個部分也請OTN給我更清楚的一個說明，也就是我們目前因應的狀況，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，這是我比較關注的部分。最後我想從民眾的觀點，未來我會更深度地跟部裡面一起探討能源的議題，今天我想簡單的問一下，我們知道明年要撥補，我想很清楚地了解一下，我們整體在電費的部分是不是會漲很多？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，撥補1,000億是在改善台電的財務情形，台電借的錢滿多的，一年大概要花了兩百多億的利息，撥補這1,000億可以改善我們這個財務狀況，大概是這樣子。它跟電價沒有關係，電價是由電價審議委員們決定的。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝你這邊的回應，後續我會繼續關心。針對能源的部分，也會再就教部裡面。謝謝。"],["主席：請伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員，伍麗華委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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客就是沒有來嘛,就沒有來,那沒有來呢我們卻在這邊推廣,代表說其實我們是希望陸客來的嘛,應該是這樣嘛對不對可是實際上一些政策的作為所以他沒有來,那我衍生兩個疑問,第一個疑問是說那大家都嘛知道說現在陸客沒有來,我們在這邊推廣關公的原因是什麼?"},{"start":56.894,"end":58.395,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":76.365,"end":98.929,"text":"推廣觀光的費用它分兩種啦一種是實體的活動加上跟大陸網紅合作113年是編了614萬那114年就明年啦成長喔成長到659萬換句話說我們對於大陸宣傳觀光的預算是越來越提高可是路客就沒辦法來啊報告委員這部分是包含港澳"},{"start":99.569,"end":116.262,"text":"所以他們的宣傳重點應該是放在港澳沒有沒有沒有我講的是這個北京辦公北京辦事處跟上海辦事處那上海又包括福州所以我覺得不忍去了解一下因為今天沒有觀光署來我也不為難你但是我覺得政策方向要定定清楚因為大家都"},{"start":116.963,"end":138.325,"text":"大家都很清楚知道台灣現在實際上觀光逆差最新的數據是已經到7380億了以前我們大家都會以台灣的觀光為榮我們希望全世界國家不分哪裡地區都希望能夠來那貿易逆差就是觀光逆差對於全民都有影響對全民都是會有影響那第二個當然首當其衝的是我們的旅遊業我們旅遊業大概"},{"start":140.347,"end":141.348,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":170.547,"end":191.902,"text":"他們對旅遊並沒有忘情可是現在環境就不容許讓他繼續在這個行業裡面那我是你心裡應該也很清楚主要的原因是因為我們的進團令一直沒有開放昨天很多觀光業者也到觀光署去陳情就是希望能夠開放進團令所以我想問一下部長的態度我們這個進團令到底要什麼條件之下才有可能會解除"},{"start":192.022,"end":192.182,"text":"附屬單位預算"},{"start":220.803,"end":246.31,"text":"所以有因果關係啦因為我相信您應該也有見到很多旅行業的業者嗎?他們應該跟您講陸客現在為什麼大陸沒有開放主要是因為禁團令的關係嗎?我們之前有一段時間有開放禁團令那也允許很多的團客過去到目前為止沒有那個時候的狀況跟現在不太一樣那個時候有開放但中國那邊也是沒有開放但現在根據旅行業者他們跟斷溝通結果"},{"start":247.15,"end":258.938,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單一、審"},{"start":275.249,"end":301.381,"text":"到對岸去旅遊的可能超過兩百萬人。那我們之前得到的數據他們來的可能還沒有到二十幾萬人。所以比例上是差非常非常多的。這個我覺得不能完全用貿易這樣子來看。我不是說貿易,我只是說至少人數這樣。因為你只有開放,因為他們人比較多嘛。你只要一開放他們願意來。現在是我們去的比較多,他們來的比較少。那是因為他不來啊。我現在就在跟你討論怎麼樣讓他來嘛。我們在自由行的部分大家都可以去啊。"},{"start":301.741,"end":325.962,"text":"但是如果說競團令開放之後他會更多人來那我們很多觀光的問題可以解決我現在跟你討論的是後段的問題不是在跟你講前段嘛所以我是問說到底你如果要開放競團令你的條件是什麼?開放的競團令是送我們的旅客過去的我是希望對岸可以解開他的競團令好那我覺得這就無解了這個又是一個雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題嘛所以"},{"start":327.583,"end":351.744,"text":"所以等於部長你就寧可做事就是我們有觀光逆差然後寧可讓這些旅行業者苦哈哈然後甚至於其實你也禁團利其實也影響到我們的旅客因為其實中國大陸我們蠻多人有很多旅客覺得禁嘛然後語言又通嘛很願意去但是有些長輩他們不會自由行啊他不像很多年輕人他們自己訂機票幹嘛或到當地會有報告委員到現在都還有團客在過去"},{"start":352.684,"end":353.225,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":372.279,"end":373.139,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":398.048,"end":404.491,"text":"否則這個事情真的是沒完沒了,其實受害是整個台灣。我們希望觀光可以少一點政治因素。對,好,謝謝。謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":999,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時53分）麻煩請交通部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：本席前兩天在報紙上看到一則新聞報導，關於台旅會，也就是臺灣在大陸的旅遊協會，為了招攬陸客，在大陸推廣觀光。我就覺得很好奇，基本上現在陸客就沒有來，我們卻去那邊推廣，代表我們其實是希望陸客來的，應該是這樣對不對？因為實際上的一些政策作為，所以他們沒有來，這也就衍生兩個疑問，第一個問題，大家都知道現在陸客沒有來，我們在那邊推廣觀光的原因是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：我們還是希望他們……"],["葉委員元之：我們還是希望他們來對不對？讓他看得到，吃不到，心癢癢的，覺得臺灣很棒，但就是沒辦法來，是這樣嗎？還是我們其實是想要消化預算？"],["陳部長世凱：我們還是希望他們……"],["葉委員元之：我之前去跟你們要資料，113年我們觀光署在對岸推廣觀光的費用分兩種，一種是實體的活動，加上跟大陸網紅合作，113年編了614萬，明（114）年成長到659萬，換句話說我們對於大陸宣傳觀光的預算越來越提高，可是陸客就沒辦法來啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這部分包含港澳，所以他們的宣傳重點應該是放在港澳。"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，我講的是北京辦事處跟上海辦事處，上海又包括福州，所以請部長去了解一下，今天觀光署沒有來，我也不為難你，但我覺得政策方向要訂定清楚，因為大家都知道，實際上臺灣現在是觀光逆差，最新的數據已經來到7,380億，以前我們大家都會以臺灣的觀光為榮，希望全世界國家不分哪個地區都能夠來。觀光逆差對全民都會有影響，當然首當其衝的是我們的旅遊業，我們的旅遊業相關從業人員大概有200萬人，人數非常多；其中有七成旅遊業者主要是做中國大陸的生意，陸客一直不來，其實對他們影響是最大的；除了旅行社之外，還包括遊覽車業者和3,000位導遊，很多我們以前都認識的，相信部長做民代的時候也認識很多，很多導遊現在都跑去送外賣，就是加入Uber Eats之類，但他們對旅遊並沒有忘情，可是現在環境就不容許他繼續在這個行業裡面。其實你心裡應該也很清楚，主要是因為我們的禁團令一直沒有開放嘛，昨天很多觀光業者也到觀光署陳情，希望能夠開放禁團令。我想問部長的態度，這個禁團令到底要在什麼條件之下才有可能解除？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，陸客已經好幾年沒有來，所以現在臺灣的業者大多數都是倚靠各國多元的旅客來維持，這個是目前的現況。我們一直希望大陸的團客能夠過來，但大陸一直不願意放，您剛剛講的是我們要出去的旅客，我們現在比較希望的是引客來臺灣；但是委員剛剛提到的是，希望在臺灣的旅客到大陸去……"],["葉委員元之：因為這個是有因果關係的，我相信您應該也有見到很多旅行業的業者，他們應該跟你講過，現在為什麼大陸沒有開放陸客來臺，主要是因為禁團令的關係……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們之前有一段時間開放禁團令，也允許很多的團客過去，到目前為止……"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，那個時候的狀況跟現在不太一樣……"],["陳部長世凱：那個時候我們有開放，可是中國那邊也沒有開放。"],["葉委員元之：但是現在根據旅行業者跟對岸溝通的結果是，只要臺灣開放禁團令，他們就願意過來啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得他們有把握……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得大家現在都是在找藉口不開放，我現在等於是在為這些人請命，如果大家都不把善意拿出來就是說：只要你不開放陸客過來，我就不解除禁團令；對岸說：你不解除禁團令，我就不開放陸客過來！這就一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題了！"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我們的善意非常非常的多，除此之外，我們臺灣一年到對岸去旅遊的可能超過200萬人，目前得到的數據，他們來的可能還不到二十幾萬人，比例上差非常多。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這個不能完全用貿易這樣子來來看。"],["陳部長世凱：我不是說貿易……"],["葉委員元之：因為他們人比較多，你只要一開放，他們願意來……"],["陳部長世凱：現在是我們去的比較多，他們來的比較少。"],["葉委員元之：那是因為他不來啊，我現在就在跟你討論怎麼樣讓他來。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我們在自由行的部分，大家都可以去；但是他們在自由行的部分，他們沒有人會來啊。"],["葉委員元之：如果禁團令開放之後會有更多人來，我們很多的觀光問題也可以解決，我現在跟你討論的是後段的問題，不是在跟你講前段。所以我現在是問你，如果要開放禁團令的條件是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：開放禁團令是送我們的旅客過去……"],["葉委員元之：對、對，條件是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：我們是希望對岸可以解開他的禁團令。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這樣就無解了，這就是一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題！所以部長寧可坐視我們有觀光逆差，寧可讓這些旅行業者苦哈哈，其實你的禁團令也影響到我們的旅客，我們有滿多人覺得中國大陸離我們近，語言又通，都很願意去，但是有些長輩不會自由行啊，不像很多年輕人會自己訂機票，或到當地會有……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，到現在都還有團客過去……"],["葉委員元之：那可能也是偷偷摸摸的，因為你們有禁團令。"],["陳部長世凱：到現在都還有團客過去，6月以前成團的，我們還是讓他們過去，到現在都還有團客過去……"],["葉委員元之：我現在是說之後呢？如果有些長輩想去，沒辦法跟團，又不會自由行，他就沒辦法去了。所以我覺得這個事情影響很大……"],["陳部長世凱：我們還是很歡迎他們來……"],["葉委員元之：兩岸的對決，其實臺灣人是受害最深的；你以為你懲罰的是對岸，其實懲罰是我們自己人，因為這個可能也不是部長可以決定的……"],["陳部長世凱：我們還是歡迎他們。"],["葉委員元之：因為交通部前部長王國材那時候對於禁團令的講法是一夕數變，他可能也有受到高層的壓力，所以現在你也沒辦法，但我覺得要思考一個解套的方法，否則這個事情真的是沒完沒了，受害的是整個臺灣啦。"],["陳部長世凱：我希望觀光可以少一點政治因素啦。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","陳世凱部長在下午有重要的行程，我們1點讓部長離開，接下來請陳彥伯次長代理。"],["陳委員雪生：1點半。"],["主席：1點啦！因為他有重要行程，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：我還沒質詢啊！"],["主席：我們接下來邀請伍麗華委員質詢。"],["陳委員雪生：召委，你放部長走？"],["主席：對，有同意他請假了，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157545","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157545","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a9f24b7b8b20c644944e208bd6b14da82d2987c8d96a34d1863521e5656016d285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"12:45:39 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計畫到這一個上一期的是到今年"},{"start":93.256,"end":102.65,"text":"下一期是從114年我想就是說他三期的這個工程他需要做一些檢討調整那是不是再提報到我們下一期這個114年的這個審改計畫"},{"start":105.727,"end":122.454,"text":"可是那時候不是說經費的時候直接幫我們匡列進去嗎?因為他其實因為他沒有就是說他沒有繼續發包對阿所以二期的部分已經完成了那基本上就是說因為我們在他繼續做一些調整的話我們就列入下一期的計畫"},{"start":123.837,"end":146.381,"text":"那等於還要重新送重新爭取嗎?報告委員報告委員這個不是重新爭取啦這原本就一二期都做了所以第三期我們當然也會支持不過因為他之前的那個該發包也沒發包也沒有做那所以請他在114年的時候再提出來這個部分我們還是會委員會我們來協助他只是因為他有一些調整啦"},{"start":146.821,"end":166.347,"text":"所以他就是說調整的部分比如說包括他調整的一些工程內容還有經費上面是不是要做一些調整是不是我們來協助他們就是說因為要做一些審議好那經費的部分還是跟我們支持啊對對對因為這已經做到後半段他這一段做上去才能連接到我們台一線所以他就是114年的這個計畫等我們的計畫114到118年的計畫過了之後那請他們來提出申請"},{"start":171.288,"end":201.288,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":201.568,"end":227.825,"text":"的運作效率以及我們建構完善的省道快速公路網提高快速公路系統還有連結性的問題那這一方面我們後來桃園市政府也為了希望能夠建構完整的快速公路網把這個路網能夠建構完善所以提出了五橫五縱的快速公路那這一部分"},{"start":229.955,"end":247.446,"text":"獲提出城中、環西、跟陶北的快速公路那因為這三條快速公路都有連接到我們台66、台65還有台1線那這一部分是不是可以請部長、局長這一部分來支持"},{"start":248.206,"end":262.765,"text":"那市府來建構這完整的快速公路網?包括委員您也有提出來說由市府來建構齁因為其實都市內的快速路網快速道路的部分是由市政府來負責的那所以這個部分可能要桃園市政府他們來來處理會比較好"},{"start":264.727,"end":281.805,"text":"但是如果快速公路的部分不是公路局來做嗎?因為他就是快速的有快速公路跟快速道路那我們快速公路基本上有跨縣市像現在桃園我們正在委託規劃研究像從新北到桃園板龍快速公路"},{"start":282.025,"end":294.294,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審"},{"start":311.55,"end":332.166,"text":"那這部分這樣啦我覺得還是還是找我們地方交通局來跟公路局我們大家再來協調一下看怎麼來協助這個城西、城中、環西、陶北快速公路因為這個建構網建置完善可以完整的針對我們中央國發會現在陶竹苗大溪谷計畫對這個"},{"start":334.247,"end":356.399,"text":"推動方案也有很大的注意因為這個建構完整的路網我覺得對於我們中央這個計畫有非常大的幫助所以我想說是不是交通局跟我們公路局我們來開個協調會看怎麼樣的協助把這個路網能夠建置完善來解決地方財政的問題好那請部長跟局長也多幫忙我們跟他們一起來協調一起來討論"},{"start":358.444,"end":386.658,"text":"好那我們是不是我們第三期的審改道路計畫這經費是不是還沒有確定啊第三期的部分還沒有核定還沒有核定嗎114年到118年還沒有核定好那這部分因為地方有很大的需求在這邊也先跟部長局長來請託一下針對我們陽梅秀財路178巷他這個之前是有道路可是他沒有連接到我們的"},{"start":387.799,"end":415.469,"text":"台一縣、中山南路那我們希望有機會這第三期的審改計畫到時候市府提出計畫針對秀才路178巷它如果打通連接到我們台一縣也可以有效的紓解我們縱貫路在陽梅市區塞車的狀況那這部分我們會請市府盡快提出這計畫那也希望到時候部長、局長針對這審改計畫也給我們大力支持好不好"},{"start":416.45,"end":421.441,"text":"他們提出來了,我們公路局來審查。希望這幾個計畫到時候我們一併來討論來協助地方。好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":960,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（12時45分）謝謝主席，請陳部長還有公路局陳局長。"],["主席：請陳部長，請陳局長。"],["涂委員權吉：部長你好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：在10月初總質詢的時候，本席有針對楊梅甡甡路延伸到中山南路台1線的省改計畫質詢過陳部長，這一筆經費本來已經確定，後來因為疫情的關係，地方政府徵收土地的時程有被耽擱，那時候也感謝部長還有公路局，同意把這筆經費匡列在113年到118年的省改計畫裡面，可是這一部分，現在我們一直還沒有看到正式的公文書面。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，這部分我是不是請公路局長跟你說明。"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，這條路原來有分為幾期的工程，目前二期的工程其實已經完成，現在大概就是三期的部分，因為三期大概有一些用地還沒有取得，所以也在做相關的設計，不過因為它本來是在省改，上一期的省改計畫是到今年，下一期是從114年開始，我想這個三期工程需要做一些檢討調整，那是不是再提報到我們下一期114年的省改計畫。"],["涂委員權吉：可是那時候不是說經費就直接幫我們匡列進去嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：因為他其實沒有繼續發包，二期的部分已經完成了，基本上因為它要繼續做一些調整，所以我們就列入下一期的計畫。"],["涂委員權吉：那等於還要重新送，重新爭取嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：應該……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個不是重新爭取，這個原本一、二期都做了，所以第三期我們當然也會支持，不過因為之前的計畫該發包的也沒有發包，也沒有做，所以請他在114年的時候再提出來，這個部分我們還是會支持。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，委員，我們來協助，只是因為它有一些調整，所以就調整的部分，譬如說包括它調整的一些工程內容，還有經費上面是不是要做一些調整，是不是我們來協助他們，因為要做一些審議。"],["涂委員權吉：好，那經費的部分還是要給我們支持啦。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["涂委員權吉：因為這個已經做到後半段……"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們會繼續支持，對……"],["涂委員權吉：它這一段做上去才能連接到我們台1線嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：所以它就是114年的計畫，等我們114到118年的計畫過了之後，就請他們來提出申請。"],["涂委員權吉：那就請部長跟局長協助，經費這部分還是要幫忙支持。"],["陳部長世凱：會，這個會協助他們。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好。針對省道快速公路改善計畫，因為我看了一下，我們的省改計畫裡面有針對快速公路的先期規劃，這包含了可行性評估還有綜合規劃，省改計畫的目的當然是要評估路網貫通的必要性，還有提升整體快速公路網的運作效率，以及建構完善的省道快速公路網，提高快速公路系統還有連結性的問題。這一方面我們桃園市政府後來也為了希望能夠建構完整的快速公路網，把路網能夠建構完善，所以提出了五橫五縱的快速公路，就這部分後來有提出城中、環西跟桃北的快速公路，因為這三條快速公路都有連接到台66、台65還有台1線，這一部分是不是可以請部長、局長來支持桃園市府建構完整的快速公路網？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你也有提出來說由市府來建構，因為都市內的快速路、快速道路部分，是由市政府負責的，所以這個部分可能要桃園市政府他們來處理會比較好。"],["涂委員權吉：快速公路的部分不是公路局來負責嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，快速的有快速公路跟快速道路，基本上快速公路有跨縣市，像桃園的部分，我們正在委託規劃研究，從新北到桃園板龍快速公路跟新梅龍，它會跨幾個縣市；至於都市內的快速道路，如北市的建國北、新生北，當初都是從市區快速道路的角度來看市區道路的連結，桃園市因為也是市區內快速道路的連結，所以基本上就是由市府自己做一些規劃；未來經費上面如果有需要的話，看是不是能夠跟內政部國土署這邊來爭取。"],["涂委員權吉：我覺得這個部分還是找地方交通局跟公路局，我們大家再來協調一下，看怎麼來協助城中、環西、桃北的快速公路，因為這個路網若建置完善，對國發會現在推動的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫方案也有很大的助益。我覺得建構完整的路網對中央的計畫會有非常大的幫助，所以我想請交通局跟公路局來開協調會，看要怎麼來協助，能把這個路網建置完善，解決地方財政的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["涂委員權吉：請部長跟局長多幫忙。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一起來協調，一起來討論。"],["涂委員權吉：還有我們第三期省改道路計畫的經費是不是還沒有確定？"],["陳部長世凱：第三期（114年到118年）的部分還沒有核定。"],["涂委員權吉：因為地方對這部分有很大的需求，我在這邊先跟部長、局長請託一下，楊梅秀才路178巷之前是有道路的，可是它沒有接到台1線中山南路，我們希望第三期的省改計畫核定之後，針對秀才路178巷由市府提出計畫，若能打通連接台1線，將可以有效紓解縱貫路在楊梅市區塞車的狀況。對於這部分，我們會請市府儘快提出這個計畫，到時候也希望部長、局長，可以針對這個省改計畫給我們大力支持，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：他們提出來，我們公路局再來審查，好不好？"],["涂委員權吉：希望這幾個計畫，到時候我們一併來討論，來協助地方，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員。接下來請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11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bicyclist 提到電池的使用期限大概是兩年。我們必須來看"},{"start":189.592,"end":202.726,"text":"為掛牌、超出使用連線消防署有去統計微型電動二輪車的起火自災2021年開始逐年的增加2021年43件、2022年58件、2023年65件、2024年1到9月已經53件了"},{"start":210.046,"end":229.013,"text":"局長跟部長特別要注意電品起火原因電品47%充電系統20.3%絕緣破損12.9%電池或者是老化相關造成的起火因素佔了80%以上起火自災是逐年增加"},{"start":229.873,"end":242.832,"text":"那沒有掛牌就會有因為出廠的時間以及相關規格的問題它其實是有安全的隱憂那交通部部長你要說明一下我們如何去加強要推動掛牌"},{"start":245.095,"end":247.497,"text":"還有落實掛牌的管理來說明一下。"},{"start":275.195,"end":276.455,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":297.501,"end":307.81,"text":"微型電動二輪車的這樣的一個事故跟傷亡的件數也是逐年的增加在上面的資料其實都很清楚2021年是8198件那2022年是8499件2023年已經升到9025件"},{"start":317.412,"end":332.633,"text":"受傷人數也是逐年的增加。主要的原因到底是什麼?局長你有清楚嗎?因為大概就是說使用的量也是一直持續在增加。量逐漸增加。你要怎麼去管理?"},{"start":333.474,"end":351.901,"text":"現在就是說大概就是因為目前已經納管了所以納管以後就是沒有就是說沒辦法領牌的那個很多其實是拼裝或改造的那拼裝改造這個部分的話其實現在從這一個11月這個11月底之後的話其實在路面上我們看到的其實都要就是說做處罰或沒入"},{"start":353.278,"end":381.526,"text":"這個都必須要加強的相關的督促跟管理部長跟局長尤其是局長你都很清楚我們現在有電力的輔助自行車跟機車已經差不多了微型電動二輪車還有電動機車還有普通的輕型的電動機車還有大型的重型機車跟普通的大型的普通的重型機車"},{"start":384.21,"end":408.921,"text":"現在自行車跟機車的分類其實也越來越多元我特別要提醒部長我們台灣對於行人的安全做得很不好現在交通部在加強相關的這個改善跟管理特別重要我們一年三千不幸的交通意外事故喪失生命的民眾"},{"start":411.34,"end":420.784,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":440.191,"end":442.872,"text":"議員提醒事故的部分我們應該要加強管理除了現在原本的"},{"start":460.06,"end":474.053,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審"},{"start":486.004,"end":501.496,"text":"董事長,因為鐵道的運輸安全你要負最重要的一個責任也是部長很重要的一個課題那我們看到11月2號台鐵452次、UNU3000型速零開往台東的新自強號"},{"start":502.602,"end":504.503,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":519.93,"end":524.855,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":542.967,"end":548.851,"text":"月過了這個出發的耗資期大概1500公尺左右那總滑行的距離長達2214公尺這個問題啊來局長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":555.323,"end":582.97,"text":"有這個是我們在11月1號我們康瑞颱風過後因為那個花東縣他受到颱風清洗以後他的軌道的軌面有非常多的落葉樹枝泥水沒錯就是因為颱風風強雨急造成樹葉雜草雜物然後覆蓋在這個鐵道上面那造成了這個軌道的摩擦力就不足"},{"start":584.502,"end":611.428,"text":"其實董事長您應該清楚,它的這個路段的坡度大概是千分之九點九而已。其實我們在做一些煞車的緊急的台鐵的相關的管理規範,在千分之二時也必須要有有效的一個煞車。另外以前我們在做緩滑的這些處理的時候,在做測驗的時候,甚至在軌道上面是潑啥肥皂水。"},{"start":612.605,"end":613.686,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":613.686,"end":635.778,"text":"你看,我們為了搶行通車啊,這是颱風過後嘛。這個部長我特別要提醒你。跟董事長,你們負有交通運輸的重要工作。雖然在颱風期間希望趕快將鐵路啊,來搶通。但是安全是最重要的啊。包括搶救人員的安全的一個保障。第二,"},{"start":638.08,"end":648.027,"text":"請求搶通必須要重視他的安全。你看你搶通了,然後一些樹葉雜草沒有辦法去處理,還造成他這樣一個滑行的狀況,這很危險。"},{"start":649.656,"end":652.457,"text":"andır.一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":669.452,"end":691.84,"text":"另外對於鬼滅附屬義務還沒有完成清洗之前明定該區域必須要降速,要降速那颱風後路線巡查及防止列車滑走的一個措施都要增加在SNS風險危害因此管控及預防修正的相關規章"},{"start":693.54,"end":702.466,"text":"這個董事長必須要加強。是。搶通大家很辛苦,我們也都幫你們困難,但是安全是最重要。安全是最重要。以上。謝謝委員。好,謝謝李崑澤。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（12時20分）謝謝召委，請一下陳部長還有公路局陳局長、臺鐵杜董事長。"],["主席：請陳部長、陳局長、杜董事長。"],["李委員昆澤：我先請教一下公路局陳文瑞局長，我們的微型電動二輪車目前有幾輛？"],["陳局長文瑞：目前掛牌的大概有二十五萬六百多輛，裡面包含新車五萬四千多輛，使用中的車輛是十九萬六千三百多輛……"],["李委員昆澤：這個跟業者所公布的微型電動二輪車的數量是有明顯的差距，業者號稱大概是在45萬輛左右，所以落差大概是20至25萬輛。其實這有一個問題，現在據交通部到11月20號的統計，完成掛牌登記的大概是有18萬輛左右，新車領牌的大概有5萬輛左右，總計是24萬輛，這24萬輛跟業者所說的大概有45萬輛的微型電動二輪車，落差差到了20至25萬輛，為什麼會有這個落差呢？請局長說明。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為微型電動二輪車以前是屬於電動自行車，它的使用壽命上，有時候電池消耗比較大的時候，其實它換一個電池的費用就會比較高，所以它一般的壽命大概就是5年左右，所以業者提出的，是它賣出去的數字；在這兩年內，其實我們都有到各地方去做相關的……"],["李委員昆澤：等一下我會跟你再做進一步的討論。我們現在來看金管會的統計，就是有效投保強制險的，大概是18萬件左右，這個18萬件跟公路局的24萬輛還是有一定的差距，當然在這個投保上，保險公司還是有一定的審核過程，我現在要請教部長，你有沒有掌握這樣的一個落差狀況？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前我們看到投保的數字是23萬，不過最後的數字還是要……"],["李委員昆澤：實際上未投保的微型電動二輪車現在有幾輛？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，其實要掛牌一定要投保，只是現在投保顯示的那個數字是指現在有在投保的，而掛牌的數字的部分，有些是掛牌以後他不用了，然後他也沒有再繼續投保。"],["李委員昆澤：你現在說的是，有些未掛牌是因為他未使用或者是已經過期了。"],["陳局長文瑞：對！對！"],["李委員昆澤：這就是我們接下來要討論的，未掛牌但是他仍然繼續使用，超出了使用年限，就成為安全的隱憂。2022年11月29號推動電動二輪車掛牌，到現在已經滿兩年了，微型電動二輪車的使用期限，一般大概都在5年，剛才局長也提到，電池的使用期限大概是兩年，我們必須來看未掛牌超出使用年限的部分，消防署有統計微型電動二輪車起火致災的數字，2021年開始逐年的增加，2021年43件；2022年58件；2023年65件；2024年1到9月已經53件了。局長跟部長特別要注意，在起火原因中，電瓶47%；充電系統20.3%；絕緣破損12.9%；電池或者是老化相關占所有起火因素的80%以上，起火致災的件數是逐年增加，沒有掛牌的部分，因為有出廠的時間以及相關規格的問題，它其實是有安全的隱憂，我們如何去加強推動掛牌，還有落實掛牌的管理，請交通部部長說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們在掛牌的部分，當然新車的部分，在賣的時候，我們就會希望它能夠掛牌。另外，針對有一些民眾雖有二輪微型電動車但沒有掛牌的部分，我們要到點去服務，例如說外勞比較聚集的工廠，它那邊提出申請，我們去那邊服務他們或者是一些老人家比較聚集的地方，因為有時候會騎這種車的是老人家，我們到他們比較聚集的點去服務他們，讓他們能夠加速掛牌，也鼓勵掛牌。"],["李委員昆澤：這個都要加緊的督促跟管理。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員昆澤：還有，沒有掛牌的部分，陳局長，這是你一個重要的責任。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，事故也是逐年的增加，我要看看交通部的具體作為是什麼，因為微型電動二輪車的價格比較低廉，而且取得也方便，所以微型電動二輪車事故的發生跟傷亡的件數也是逐年的增加，上面的資料其實都可以看得很清楚，2021年是8,198件；2022年是8,499件；2023年已經升到9,025件，受傷的人數也是逐年的增加，主要的原因到底是什麼，局長，你清楚嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：大概因為使用的量也是一直持續在增加。"],["李委員昆澤：量逐漸增加了，那你要怎麼去管理？"],["陳局長文瑞：現在因為已經納管了，所以納管以後沒辦法領牌的，很多其實是拼裝或改造的，針對拼裝、改造這個部分，其實從11月底之後，若其行駛在路面上，其實都要予以處罰或沒入。"],["李委員昆澤：這都必須要加強督促跟管理，部長跟局長，尤其是局長，你應該都很清楚，我們現在有電力的輔助自行車，跟機車已經差不多了，微型電動二輪車還有電動機車，還有普通的輕型電動機車，還有大型的重型機車跟普通的重型機車，現在自行車跟機車的分類其實也越來越多元，我特別要提醒部長，臺灣對於行人的安全做得很不好，現在交通部在加強相關的改善跟管理，這個特別的重要。我們一年3,000件因不幸交通意外事故喪失生命的民眾，行人大概占了400人，這很嚴重；騎機車的部分有2,000人；自行車大約250人，所以我們對於微型電動二輪車以及電力輔助自行車，還有一般的自行車管理都必須要加強，尤其是微型電動二輪車跟電力輔助自行車，速度都已經很快了，像摩托車一樣，我們的機車有普通的機車，也有電動的機車，也有輕型的電動機車，這個都必須要加強管理。請部長說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，確實如您剛剛所提醒的，包含事故的部分，我們應該要加強管理，現在除了原本的汽車或者是機車，還是行人之外，對於新的這些運具，包含電動腳踏車、電動機車，尤其微型二輪車的部分，我們的管理應該要更完善，包含剛剛所提醒的電池，我們在出廠的時候做電池的安審應該要再更加強，不要讓它再發生問題。"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝部長，我請教一下杜微董事長。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：董事長，鐵道的運輸安全，你要負最重要的責任，這也是部長很重要的一個課題。我們看到11月2號臺鐵452次EMU3000型樹林開往臺東的新自強號，原定在海端站與401次列車交會，列車員看到預告號誌機顯示注意就立即減速，但列車顯示滑走警告，雖然有顯示這個警示，但是煞車其實是有問題的，造成減速不如預期，所以立即在預告號誌機前做一個緊急緊韌的煞車，但是這個列車的車速並沒有明顯降低，而且持續空轉滑走，最後擠岔擠壞轉轍器，並一路滑行越過出發號誌機大概1,500公尺左右，總滑行距離長達2,214公尺，這個問題董事長有掌握嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有，這個是在11月1號康芮颱風過後，因為花東線受到颱風侵襲，造成它軌道的軌面有非常多的落葉、樹枝及泥水。"],["李委員昆澤：沒錯，就是因為颱風風強雨急，造成樹葉、雜草、雜物，覆蓋在鐵道上面，造成軌道的摩擦力就不足，其實董事長應該清楚，這個路段的坡度大概是千分之九點九而已，其實我們在做一些緊急的煞車時，臺鐵是有相關的管理規範，在千分之二時，必須要有一個有效的煞車。另外，以前我們在做防滑處理的時候，在做測驗的時候，甚至是在軌道上面潑灑肥皂水，但在颱風過後為了搶行通車，我特別要提醒部長跟董事長，你們負有交通運輸的重要工作，雖然在颱風期間，希望趕快將鐵路搶通，但是安全是最重要的，包括搶救人員安全上的保障；第二，搶通時必須重視他的安全，像搶通了，然後一些樹葉、雜草沒有辦法去處理，還造成火車這樣滑行的狀況，實在是很危險，這個必須要加強的處理。","我簡單的來做建議，颱風復駛前，路線巡查要增加軌面覆著異物的檢查項目，董事長要記得，然後也要加強覆著異物的清洗。另外，對於軌面異物還沒有完成清洗之前，明定該區域必須要降速；颱風後路線巡查及防止列車滑走措施，這些都要增加在SMS風險危害因子管控及預防修正相關規章，這個部分董事長必須要加強。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：搶通之前，大家都很辛苦，我們也都給你們肯定，但是安全是最重要的，以上。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。接下來邀請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177afb2e7aba61481a519efc61e85f95edfb2bae0214b15caa086283ac1051a9c2f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:40:50 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長好曾董事長經濟部聯次長好聯次長先請教曾董事長目前基準的電價是不是還低於鎖電成本是大概低多少"},{"start":25.335,"end":45.342,"text":"主要我們今天討論是因為要補貼民生我們現在算出來大概是每度電差一塊錢每度電差一塊錢那是今年喔 今年已經有比較和緩了所以你一千億主要是撥補過去我們對民生用電動漲所造成的損失嘛 對不對如果這一千億沒有"},{"start":48.12,"end":57.756,"text":"這個沒有讓預算通過那你民生用電繼續動漲那你的虧損會持續增加對不對因為你還是動漲一塊錢嘛民生用電還是不會漲嘛"},{"start":59.517,"end":83.472,"text":"那個跟委員報告喔就是民生我應該要這樣子講就是民生用電其實他之前一直在動漲所以累積了台幣的虧損這一千億其實在補之前的所以會長期低於你的售電成本的關係所以你虧損會持續擴大嘛所以才要撥補嘛才通過這個一千億的預算另外你還有10個相關的政策任務比方說你那樣淨零轉型這個很重要對不對是"},{"start":84.432,"end":113.248,"text":"既然你不是口說無憑你必須要有很多實際上的這個電網牆內的這些相關的電網我有兩個我們另外一個就是折舊的支出因為我們現在要加強的做電力的建設電網的建設我們現在折舊攤體一年大概1000億那接下來累計會開始往上漲就是它一年累計的費用會持續增加到2040年如果這1000億沒有通過的話你淨零轉型可能會沒有辦法達成對不對或者效果會變得很差"},{"start":114.482,"end":136.7,"text":"我們需要更多的籌資的工作要去做第一個,你有政策的目的第二個,你要未來強氮電網各項電力建設是很重要所以如果沒有我怎麼想都想不清楚為什麼藍白會要擋這個預算要刪這個預算刪這個預算只會讓台電破產會不會破產"},{"start":146.437,"end":169.802,"text":"會不會負債?跟委員報告就是說這一千億我們自己在估算我們的淨值事實上佔我們總資產的百分比一直在下降。一直在下降。但是我這樣子講就是說這只如果有比較大的價格波動事實上對我說燃料價格波動或是國際的市場波動對台電現在來講都會是一個衝擊。"},{"start":172.967,"end":198.409,"text":"短時間俄羅斯戰爭好像還沒有停火的跡象,所以國際不穩定的因素還是存在嗎?是,但跟委員報告,我舉個例子來講,其實蛋價上去了,接下來大家一直都在討論這件事情,通貨膨脹發生,其實它要回來,沒有那麼容易。能源價格的狀況也是這樣,它不會說戰爭結束了價格就回到戰前,其實不會。對,我了解,這個基本常識我們都知道,我也不曉得這個問題怎麼會有這個問題。"},{"start":201.947,"end":222.775,"text":"如果用核電,會減少、會降低整體台電的售電成本嗎?我們算過大概一個電,就是核三廠如果真的要延,我們在沒有考慮延逸要清真投資的狀況下,"},{"start":224.54,"end":226.821,"text":"韓國的核能比幾乎到三成,我們目前只有6.3"},{"start":248.336,"end":248.856,"text":"邱志偉議員．邱志偉議員"},{"start":280.198,"end":280.419,"text":"主席"},{"start":294.588,"end":313.313,"text":"做這個研議的相關準備但我也要跟委員報告2022年的時候2022年的時候事實上我們還有核二的一部機跟核三兩部機在運轉那一年的虧損其實也就非常大不是沒有核電就一定不會有虧損從韓國電力的經驗來看你的高核能比也沒有辦法阻擋你的虧損也沒有辦法這個讓電價不調漲對不對"},{"start":323.939,"end":326.008,"text":"這個邏輯很清楚 核能不是一個解方欸"},{"start":331.776,"end":349.945,"text":"從財政上來看以韓國現在的整個占比來看他也沒有辦法解決整個能源價格上漲的問題電價他的電價調的比台灣還高我跟委員報告2023年如果台電的電價是比照韓電的電價的話這裡不會負1977億我們會賺200多億韓電的電價高還是具有虧損對不對所以"},{"start":361.513,"end":381.258,"text":"這個臺電的狀況我覺得你要用比較宏觀的去思考那你要獲得社會的支持就是說你漲這一千億是為了什麼要訴諸民意啊你跟過去我們擔負太多政策的這個負擔民生用電動力漲等等是為了讓這個臺灣的電力公司能夠永續服務"},{"start":388.458,"end":407.938,"text":"財務穩健是最基本的條件所以有很多人提出很多莫名其妙的這個例論我覺得很奇怪另外我們的安全的挑戰也很重要就我們都處於地震帶對不對這地震帶啊這個你想這個只要有地震帶"},{"start":409.775,"end":409.795,"text":"市長﹖"},{"start":425.509,"end":426.85,"text":"主席在這裡宣布我們休息半個小時"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":988,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時40分）謝謝主席，我一定會很準時。請台電曾董事長、經濟部連次長。"],["主席：請曾董事長、連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：首先請教曾董事長，目前基準電價是不是還低於售電成本？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：大概低多少？"],["曾董事長文生：最主要我們今天討論是因為要補貼民生……"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：我們的平均現在算出來大概是每度電差1塊錢。"],["邱委員志偉：每度電差1塊錢？"],["曾董事長文生：那是今年喔，今年已經有比較和緩了。"],["邱委員志偉：所以1,000億主要是撥補過去我們對民生用電凍漲所造成的損失，對不對？如果沒有讓這1,000億預算通過，而民生用電繼續凍漲，你的虧損會持續增加，對不對？因為你還是凍漲1塊錢，民生用電還是不會漲嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我應該要這樣子講，民生用電其實之前一直凍漲，所以導致台電累積了虧損，這1,000億是在補之前的。"],["邱委員志偉：這我了解，所以長期低於你的售電成本的關係，所以你虧損會持續擴大，所以才要撥補、才要通過這1,000億的預算。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外你還有相關的政策任務，比方淨零轉型，這個很重要，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：淨零轉型不是……口說無憑，你必須要有很多實際上強韌電網相關的電網設施。"],["曾董事長文生：對。我有兩個，我們另外有一個就是折舊的支出，因為我們現在要加強做電力的建設、電網的建設。"],["邱委員志偉：這部分大概占多少錢？"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在折舊攤提一年大概1,000億。"],["邱委員志偉：也是1,000億？"],["曾董事長文生：接下來累計會開始往上漲，就是一年累計的費用會持續增加到2040年。"],["邱委員志偉：如果這1,000億沒有通過的話，淨零轉型可能會沒有辦法達成，對不對？或者效果會變得很差。"],["曾董事長文生：我們需要去做更多籌資的工作，就會變成這個樣子。"],["邱委員志偉：第一個你有政策的目的；第二個未來你要做強韌電網，各項的電力建設是很重要，所以我怎麼想都想不清楚為什麼藍白會要擋這個預算、要刪這個預算？刪這個預算只會讓台電破產。會不會破產？曾董，會不會破產？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，這1,000億我們自己在估算，事實上我們的淨值占總資產的百分比一直在下降，但是我這樣子講，就是如果有比較大的價格波動，我說的是燃料價格波動或是國際的市場波動，對台電現在來講都會是一個衝擊。"],["邱委員志偉：短時間俄烏戰爭好像還沒有停火的跡象，所以國際不穩定的因素還是存在嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：是，但我跟委員報告，我舉個例子來講，其實蛋價上去了大家一直都在討論這件事情，通貨膨脹發生其實它要回來沒有那麼容易，能源價格的狀況也是，它不會戰爭結束了價格就回到戰前，其實不會。"],["邱委員志偉：對，我了解，這個基本常識我們都知道，我也不曉得怎麼會有這個問題。再來，如果用核電，會減少、降低整體台電的售電成本嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我們算過，核三廠如果真的要延役，我們在沒有考慮延役要新增投資的狀況下，它也才影響0.1元左右。"],["邱委員志偉：0.11元嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：0.11元，對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以大幅度發展核電或者核三延役或者是以後有什麼新的核能廠，這不會……看韓國的經驗就知道……"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["邱委員志偉：你看一下韓國的經驗，韓國的核能比幾乎到三成，對不對？我們目前只有6.3，他們燃氣和燃煤跟我們差不多，但它的核能到三成左右，而它的虧損還是一樣，虧損比台電嚴重。不是你發展核電、核能占比比較多，你的財務結構就會改善，或者你的整體發電成本就會下降，並不是這樣，這個邏輯很清楚。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：現在有人說就是要節省成本、要發展核電才能把整體的營運成本降低，這種立論對嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我要跟委員報告，這是百分比的問題，而且它有幾個前提，就是如果我們現在核電廠依法要繼續延役，那就是要停下來做延役的相關準備。但我也要跟委員報告，2022年的時候事實上我們還有核二的1部機跟核三的2部機在運轉，那一年的虧損其實也是非常大，不是有核電就不會虧損。"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛，從韓國電力的經驗來看，你的高核能比也沒有辦法阻擋你的虧損、也沒有辦法讓電價不調漲，對不對？這個邏輯很清楚，核能不是一個解方耶！"],["曾董事長文生：從財政上來看，以韓國現在的整個占比來看，它也沒有辦法解決整個能源價格上漲的問題，它的電價調得比臺灣還高。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊！"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，2023年如果台電的電價是比照韓電的電價的話，這裡不會負1,977億，我們會賺二百多億。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊，韓電的電價高還是鉅額虧損嘛，對不對？所以台電的狀況我覺得你要比較宏觀的去思考，你要獲得社會的支持，就是說你漲這1,000億是為什麼？要訴諸民意。你看過去我們擔負太多政策的負擔，民生用電凍漲等等，為了讓台灣電力公司能夠永續服務，財務穩健是最基本的條件。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以有很多人提出莫名其妙的立論，我覺得很奇怪。另外，我們的安全的挑戰也很重要，我們都處於地震帶，對不對？只要有地震帶就會產生很大的風險，所以我們的核能如果在地震那麼頻繁狀態下，還能適合繼續再發展核能嗎？次長，政策上應該要很清楚啊！"],["連次長錦漳：這個要經過審慎的評估，核能要發展一定要在安全無虞的狀況下。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊，非操之在我們的部分，對不對？地震我們哪能控制？事實上我們就處於地震帶上面。","我的時間到了，我要很準時。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱志偉委員。","主席在這裡宣布：休息半個小時，請大家用餐，13點20分繼續開會。","休息（12時48分）","繼續開會（13時25分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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國務卿好 國務卿好"},{"start":68.652,"end":69.473,"text":"大型的部份等等。"},{"start":85.055,"end":111.484,"text":"換了智慧電表之後我們要做的就是要去做一個管理嘛就說來看一下是說哪一些機關有比較異常的使用狀況嘛所以我們先講啊勞動部北分署這個昨天勞動部新任部長到那個北分署長的辦公室去講是說爆料真的布置過當啊那甚至也有媒體之前報導講是說還有用綠植栽牆啊有利植物生長所以在辦公室內設軌道燈導致電費暴漲"},{"start":114.67,"end":131.346,"text":"那過去到現在既然我們現在各部門也都已經有做這個智慧電表了難道我們沒有一些管理機制是可以去看是說哪一個部門他用電的狀況確實跟他的人員也好或說跟他的相關配置也好是不符合比例的嗎"},{"start":134.811,"end":147.735,"text":"總不能說都要一般老百姓你們要節電用電不能要省電小機關學校要隨手關燈結果反而我們的大部會尤其是大關冷氣開直栽牆做軌道燈做"},{"start":149.896,"end":168.132,"text":"來部長這個大概是這個特案特例啦特例還是通例我現在我是很懷疑耶部長或者是署長的辦公室都有自摘牆是啊我想應該不至於那麼大家那麼敢嘛阿我跟委員報告我們現在做這個智慧電表意思就是去monitor"},{"start":168.812,"end":188.773,"text":"他現在的用電方式 那我們如果可以改善 那麼將來可以進步多少我們現在都還在建立標本 我現在跟委員報告 也請委員能夠幫忙因為我們現在所有公務機關 要做這些事情都要透過採購法很麻煩 有什麼比較好的方法 可以比較快來落實"},{"start":191.704,"end":201.807,"text":"市長本席給建議你應該是先盤點一下是說我們用電的比如說哪幾個部會是用電大戶然後尤其是比較特殊他你怎麼會這個部會或是說哪個辦公室他都是列為前幾名然後來去做檢討嗎我們有10大標竿的這個包括醫院"},{"start":217.951,"end":241.5,"text":"這同質性比較高的產業我們都有標出來醫院學校公共機構 這個資料能不能公布還是說能不能來讓國人知道也要求他們做改善 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台電在跟我們說啦所以說你會變成是說到底我今天多用多少電那那個轉盤一直在轉如果說他沒有換成智慧電表是傳統電表的話他就一直在轉阿那你真的已經去問收到帳單的時候已經是兩個月前一個月前的事情了那個時候的那個數字跟現在數字也不一樣民眾會變成沒有辦法去確實或是查核說他到底有沒有超錯的一個狀況"},{"start":402.703,"end":423.115,"text":"但是部長我要提出來是說從2022年2023年到2024年每年其實都有因為民眾認為說他的帳單真的是太異常了他就申訴最後鍥而不捨所以說才發現說是超錯那但是這個是民眾鍥而不捨啊你有一般的民眾可能他覺得說多一千塊"},{"start":424.482,"end":430.805,"text":"臺電不會錯啦!臺電政府機關國營企業不會錯啦!他就攪了!應該會導入AI下去確認用這個大資料來比對然後來精進、來集合這些臺電做還是經濟部做?臺電會做"},{"start":451.038,"end":477.395,"text":"部長 本市也提一下啦 內機內控就像如同你的工廠管理 良率的部分該抽檢也要抽檢啊 要多少 譬如說這件事要抽檢 適時的抽檢 不定時的抽檢用這樣子的良率來去回推說是不是我們是正常的 這個部分是不是能夠研究一個辦法這個可以 這個我們用標準局去做correlation就可以了 我們就直接做這個外部跟內部的correlation就可以了"},{"start":477.955,"end":484.063,"text":"那針對AI或是這個你的標準局的這個部分是不是這個做法能夠提供給本席一個月內提供報告給本席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1219,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩請郭部長及台電王總經理。"],["主席：請郭部長、王總經理。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：郭部長，我想電的部分大家也都關心，本席現在要討論另外一個議題，我記得之前，台電也好，經濟部也好，都一直在推動所謂的智慧電表，希望大家能夠比較有效率來做這個電的使用。之前也說過我們公家機關是不是全部都已經換成智慧電表？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有全部，幾乎啦！大型的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們說公家機關要先帶頭節電，總統召開氣候變遷委員會，就是希望能夠節電。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：換了智慧電表之後，我們要去做管理，看是哪些機關有比較異常的使用狀況，我們先講昨天勞動部新任部長到北分署長辦公室，爆料說真的布置過當；之前甚至也有媒體報導說，用綠植栽牆有利植物生長，所以在辦公室內設軌道燈，導致電費暴漲。既然各部會現在都已經有裝設這個智慧電表，難道我們沒有一些管理機制可以去看是哪一個部門的用電的狀況，跟它的人員或是相關配置，是不符合比例的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：目前因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：總不能都要一般老百姓節約用電、省電，小機關、學校要隨手關燈，結果我們的大部會，尤其是大官冷氣開、做植栽牆、做軌道燈！部長。"],["郭部長智輝：這個大概是特案、特例啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：請問是特例還是通例？我現在很懷疑！"],["郭部長智輝：不是每一個部長或署長的辦公室有植栽牆，不會啦。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想大家應該不至於那麼敢嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，我們現在做這個智慧電表，意思就是去monitor它現在的用電方式，如果可以改善，那麼將來可以improve多少，我們現在都還在建立標本。我也要請委員幫忙，因為所有公務機關要做這些事情，都要透過採購法，很麻煩。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有什麼比較好的方法，可以趕快來落實？我們現在就透過採購法，這個是出乎我意料之外的……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席給你建議，你應該先盤點一下，比如哪幾個部會是用電大戶，尤其是比較特殊的部會或是辦公室，它都列在前幾名，然後去檢討。"],["郭部長智輝：我們有十大標竿，包括醫院，就是同質性比較高的產業，我們都有標出來，如醫院、學校、公務機構。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個資料能不能公布讓國人知道，也要求他們改善？"],["郭部長智輝：這個沒有問題，這個都是已經公開的資料，我們要選哪幾個產業、哪幾家公司……"],["洪委員孟楷：產業是一個部分，但我現在說公部門要以身作則。之前還看到台電董事長說官邸8臺冷氣都不敢吹，所以有人是這個樣子，也有人在浪費用電，我們當然要抓出來。部長您是產業界出身，你一定很了解本席現在講的，就是我怎麼樣用數字化管理去看各部會的狀況，所以這樣的資料什麼時候可以提供？一個禮拜可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：一個禮拜是比較緊一點，因為我們幅員還滿廣的……"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個禮拜？好，兩個禮拜。你已經有智慧電表，照理講，使用智慧電表的用意，就是你可以把它給數字化出來，兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個禮拜內送給本席的辦公室以及我們經濟委員會的委員。另外，本席查到還有很多民眾沒有換成智慧電表，但是從去年、今年一直都有抄錯電表的新聞。本席剛剛看了一下臺中在8月份的時候，就有114戶的傳統電表被抄錯；苗栗頭份也有抄錯的問題。本席辦公室最近也接獲訊息，有民眾說他是一樣的空間，同期的電費就比去年多了一千多塊，第一時間他跟台電反應，台電說因為我們的電價有漲等等，但他說他的數字沒有變，所以這會衍生什麼樣的狀況？說實在話，一般民眾對這一千多塊，也不是付不起，但會覺得心很痛，再加上說他是用銀行直接轉扣，所以就扣款出去了，但這中間到底有沒有抄錯的空間，我想請教一下，台電有沒有所謂的內稽內控的機制？"],["郭部長智輝：這個應該都是委外在處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是委外在處理，所以才會有盲點。本席現在提出來，這個是一般老百姓會面臨到問題，因為是台電在跟我們講我今天用了多少電，如果沒有換成智慧電表，而是傳統電表的話，那個轉盤就一直在轉，如果你真的已經去問，但是收到帳單的時候，已經是兩個月前、一個月前的事情了，那個時候的數字，跟現在的數字也不一樣，民眾沒有辦法確實去查核，他到底有沒有抄錯的一個狀況。部長，我要提出來的是，從2022年、2023年到2024年，每年都有這樣的問題，民眾認為他的帳單真的是太異常，鍥而不捨的去申訴，才發現抄錯；這個是民眾鍥而不捨，一般的民眾可能覺得多一千塊就算了，台電是政府機關、國營企業不會錯啦，他就繳了，無形當中……"],["郭部長智輝：現在會導入AI下去確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼導入？"],["郭部長智輝：導入AI來確認，就是用大資料來比對，然後來精進稽核……"],["洪委員孟楷：是台電來做，還是經濟部做？"],["郭部長智輝：台電會做。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席也要提一下，內稽內控就如同你在工廠管理良率的部分，該抽檢也要抽檢。"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：譬如這個縣市要適時的抽檢，不定時的抽檢，用這樣子的良率去回推是不是正常的，這個部分能不能夠研究一個辦法？"],["郭部長智輝：這個可以，我們由標準局去做collation，直接由外部跟內部做collation。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，針對AI或是標準局的部分，相關的作法能夠提供給本席嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們再整理報告給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月內，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員不在。","請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","登記發言的委員，除了不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。有張嘉郡委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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席長"},{"start":316.588,"end":321.093,"text":"臺電發電燃料成本較二屋戰爭前大幅增加是不是這個意思"},{"start":321.909,"end":323.249,"text":"只有彌補這條路嗎?那就證明了你的"},{"start":350.589,"end":350.909,"text":"請回答日本已經重啟發電了嗎?"},{"start":383.541,"end":397.975,"text":"有重啟是不是?那日本包括法國德國也考慮要重啟核電經濟部的態度怎麼樣?所以核電會不會重啟?"},{"start":407.991,"end":427.52,"text":"剛剛跟委員報案就法令現在法令規定這樣一定要在安全而且合規要處理沒有問題要全民共識下所以本席很簡單的一個提問那現在核能是不是全部都凍結所以不會重啟核電因為現在法令上還是規範這樣子法令什麼規定那經濟部的態度勒"},{"start":435.219,"end":449.982,"text":"我們會依法行政啊,法令規定所以你就是堅決的反核對不對沒有,各位媒體我們是依法行政啊你的法到底怎麼樣啊,現在核有沒有重啟的空間這問題你要討論,你要來講啊"},{"start":459.557,"end":473.737,"text":"我們才有辦法來瞭解未來說你發電的成本怎麼計算好再講簡單的就是在5年前平均的一度電費用是多少這個可不可以請台電說明一下"},{"start":477.885,"end":500.405,"text":"主席長啊 你看大家問的一問三不知 然後一見面就是老套我要錢要錢給我一千億 主席長以前是一度電兩塊多啦 現在叫到一塊多啦那但是一塊多那是指民生用電的部分 那現在成本又是兩塊七 所以要倒電一塊啦"},{"start":501.085,"end":521.343,"text":"現在民眾也搞不清楚啦一直覺得電價一直漲請問工業用電委員民生電價一直都沒有漲民生電價一度電現在多少民生電價現在一部電全部平均啦因為它是分級的級距330度以下的沒有漲過就沒有漲"},{"start":523.365,"end":549.242,"text":"那整個累計級距過去這一段時間以來整個民生的平均電價是2.77元2點比以前高啊沒有啦沒有2.77沒有高我300度以下的電價還比2004年的電價低好那最高的電價平均電價最高是什麼你是超過1000度以上的有一個累計級距多少大概是10塊左右10塊"},{"start":551.638,"end":564.629,"text":"10塊是不是對那個比較高這個齁用電的級距大家看得很清楚一問三不知連老百姓也不知道老百姓的感覺老百姓的感覺這是說喔什麼萬物起漲電價要飆漲那請問今年民生電價真的民生電價沒漲這一次"},{"start":575.814,"end":603.09,"text":"一千億撥補了以後,你能保證以後的民生電價都不漲嗎?跟委員報告好,我們現在在處理的是過去的臺電因為政策而承擔的支出。你今天要一千億嘛,那我請問你,這一千億給你了以後,你能不能擔保未來的民生用電不漲?"},{"start":604.77,"end":619.223,"text":"報告委員,我還是要跟您說一件事,我們現在在討論的是為什麼用到追加的方式,而且主席長剛剛也在說明說他這個部分的財源現在是去年的,所以即是我們現在在討論的是補貼過去對台電造成的虧損。"},{"start":624.512,"end":651.88,"text":"假設這一千億給你的以後,你明年電價還會漲?我還是要跟委員報告,因為這件事真的電價不是臺電公司決定啦。那我再問你,但我要告訴各位,我要告訴委員的是,我們一直在講,說因為如果有補貼,那電價表演會都會考慮。主席站起來了。二屋戰爭如果停止的話,你的電價要不調降?委員,二屋戰爭之後還要看燃料價格怎麼反映。"},{"start":653.287,"end":671.573,"text":"因為通貨膨脹 戰爭會造成通貨膨脹 通貨膨脹發生以後要怎麼樣子校正 那個跟戰爭結束沒有直接關係我準備的資料沒有辦法說服所有的人民 你開宗明義第一個就講啊 那個竹記長寫的啊 由於二霧戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲"},{"start":676.495,"end":677.156,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":879,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時29分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請陳主計長？"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["羅委員明才：以及經濟部連次長。部長有沒有來？"],["主席：好，請經濟部連次長。"],["羅委員明才：首先請教主計長，今天最主要的是提追加預算。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：金額是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：1,000億。"],["羅委員明才：1,000億喔？我看到你們準備了一些資料，你的資料大概就是有1頁、2頁、3頁，大概3、4頁這樣。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：短短幾張紙，然後要我們通過1,000億的追加預算。再看一下經濟部好了，經濟部的次長嗎？連次長，你這邊大概也是有用心在準備啦，可是那麼用心的結果是1頁、2頁，附件不算啦，因為附件都是空白的，第3頁這個就是制式的。主計長，這3頁的紙就要來跟立法院要1,000億啊？哇，那真好要啊，平均1頁就三百多億！這個是什麼資料？主計長說明一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個部分我們將來會改進，我們再補充，但是重點以我們來講我們只是就編制它的一個過程和經過來說明，主要的內容是要經濟部來做補充。"],["羅委員明才：現在你們做的每一個步驟事實上是攸關民生的問題啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：民眾已經受不了了，電價一漲再漲，只有薪水沒有漲，實質的薪資「倒退嚕」，老百姓怎麼生活啊？所以請教一下經濟部，現在台電公司會不會破產？"],["連次長錦漳：因為現在有在做其他的，我們公務預算也有撥補，目前舉債上限還在一定的範圍。"],["羅委員明才：你們不能給人民的感受是遇到事情時政府不撥補就等著倒，然後用沒電、缺電來要脅人民。"],["連次長錦漳：沒有，現在我們也責成台電要很努力改善財務結構。"],["羅委員明才：你有沒有算過啊，你們在開源節流方面做了多少工作、有沒有認真在做？"],["連次長錦漳：所以現在台電在今年年底會把整個財務改善結構的分析報告，我們要請它提出來。"],["羅委員明才：台電現在股本多大？"],["連次長錦漳：現在是5,800億。"],["羅委員明才：5,800億，裡面股東結構是怎麼樣？"],["連次長錦漳：一般民股只有2.11，那個是一般的，台電差不多有97……"],["羅委員明才：民股有多少？"],["連次長錦漳：民股有2.11。"],["羅委員明才：2.11，民股有二點多，主計長，你可以編公務預算來補助一個裡面有民間持股的公司嗎？主計長，全臺灣上市、櫃公司有1,900家，如果民間的股份政府機關可以補助，那請問以後有一些遇到國際因素、生產不善、經營不力的可不可以來找主計長補助啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它是我們的國營事業，所以我們是補助國營事業。"],["羅委員明才：是怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是補助國營事業，它是我們國營的。"],["羅委員明才：國營事業它裡面有民股啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：民股很少吧！"],["連次長錦漳：那個民股當時要求它要……"],["羅委員明才：依你的邏輯來講，以後包括一銀、包括合庫等等其他的公司如果虧損沒有辦法經營的時候，政府是不是要補貼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是可以撥補的啦！依照規定是可以撥補的。"],["連次長錦漳：委員，台電的狀況不一樣，因為所有的輸配電網整個都是台電在經營，所以如果沒有一個足夠的資金或財務結構給它，它對於我們整個輸配供電的影響很大，對於我們整個民生用電或產業發展是會影響非常大，這個對國家衝擊很大。"],["羅委員明才：你們就是用這樣不斷來要脅人民，所以我們立委就是一定要通盤接受，是不是這樣？"],["連次長錦漳：我們也會督促台電改善，整個財務結構要很用心的去做一些改善。"],["羅委員明才：對，重點是怎麼樣開源節流，整個過程cost down下來。"],["連次長錦漳：對，對……"],["羅委員明才：主計長，你說這一次要撥補的原因是因為俄烏戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲，對不對？所以台電發電燃料成本較俄烏戰爭前大幅增加，是不是這個意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這段時間這個部分它維持民生不漲價或者是產業不漲價，它本身的虧損就達到六千多億……"],["羅委員明才：我知道啦……"],["陳主計長淑姿：民生是2,800億，產業是4,000億，總共有6,800億，這必須要做一個彌補它才有辦法，因為它負有一個政策的任務。"],["羅委員明才：只有彌補這條路嗎？那就證明了你的電力政策是錯誤的嘛，現在所有的產業界、很多的工商團體在講你為什麼不以核養綠呢？次長，請問日本現在的核電廠有沒有重啟發電？"],["連次長錦漳：但是日本在這一波也是撥了五千多億在……"],["羅委員明才：請回答！日本已經重啟核能發電了嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：13部。"],["羅委員明才：有重啟是不是？"],["連次長錦漳：不是，它現在有13部機組在運轉。"],["羅委員明才：包括日本、法國、德國也考慮要重啟核電，經濟部的態度怎麼樣？"],["連次長錦漳：要重啟核電這個因為現在法令規定，我們還是要在法令規定下去做處理。"],["羅委員明才：所以核電會不會重啟？"],["連次長錦漳：剛剛跟委員報告，現在法令規定這樣，一定要在安全而且核廢料處理沒有問題，而且要在全民共識下。"],["羅委員明才：所以本席很簡單的一個提問，現在核能是不是全部都凍結，所以不會重啟核電？"],["連次長錦漳：因為現在法令上還是規範這樣子。"],["羅委員明才：法令怎麼規定？那經濟部的態度咧？"],["連次長錦漳：我們會依法行政，法令規定……"],["羅委員明才：所以你就是堅決的反核，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有，跟委員報告，我們是依法行政。"],["羅委員明才：你的法到底是怎麼樣？現在核能有沒有重啟的空間？次長，這個問題你要討論你要來講啊，我們才有辦法來了解未來所有發電的成本怎麼計算。好，再講簡單的，5年前平均1度電費用是多少？"],["連次長錦漳：這個可不可以請台電說明一下？"],["主席：請台電曾董事長。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，你看，來問一問三不知，然後一見面就是老套，我要錢、要錢，給我1,000億！主計長……"],["陳主計長淑姿：以前是1度電兩塊多元……"],["羅委員明才：那現在呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在降到一塊多元，但是一塊多元那是指民生用電的部分，現在成本又是兩塊七元，所以要倒貼一塊錢。"],["羅委員明才：現在民眾也搞不清楚，覺得電價一直漲，請問工業用電，你那個費率又一大堆。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，民生電價一直都沒有漲。"],["羅委員明才：民生電價1度電現在多少？"],["曾董事長文生：民生電價現在1度電全部平均……"],["羅委員明才：平均啦，就是問平均。"],["曾董事長文生：因為它是分級的級距，330度以下的沒有漲過，就沒有漲，整個累計級距過去這一段時間以來整個民生的平均電價是2.77元。"],["羅委員明才：比以前高啊！"],["曾董事長文生：沒有啦！"],["羅委員明才：沒有？2.7沒有高？"],["曾董事長文生：300度以下的電價還比2004年的電價低。"],["羅委員明才：好，那最高的電價，平均最高是什麼？1度多少？"],["曾董事長文生：超過1,000度以上的有一個累計級距。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["曾董事長文生：大概是10塊錢左右。"],["羅委員明才：10塊錢是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：對，那個比較高。"],["羅委員明才：這個用電的級距大家看得很清楚，一問三不知，連老百姓也不知道……"],["曾董事長文生：沒有啦，我們在網路上都有。"],["羅委員明才：老百姓的感覺就是萬物齊漲、電價又要飆漲，那請問今年……"],["曾董事長文生：民生電價真的沒漲。"],["羅委員明才：這一次1,000億撥補了以後，你能保證以後的民生電價都不漲嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：你就回答我嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在在處理的是過去台電因為政策而承擔的支出。"],["羅委員明才：你聽我講，你今天要1,000億嘛，那我請問你，這1,000億給你了以後，你能不能擔保未來的民生用電不漲？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我還是要跟您說一件事，我們現在在討論是為什麼用到追加的方式，而且主計長剛剛也說明這個部分的財源現在是去年的歲計賸餘，我們現在在討論的是補貼過去對台電造成的虧損。"],["羅委員明才：好，假設這1,000億給你了以後，你明年電價還會不會漲？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["曾董事長文生：我還是要跟委員報告，因為電價這件事真的不是台電公司決定的啊！"],["羅委員明才：好，那我再問你……"],["曾董事長文生：但我要告訴各位、我要告訴委員的是，我們已經在講因為如果有補貼……"],["羅委員明才：最後一句，主席站起來了……"],["曾董事長文生：電價審議委員會都會考慮。"],["羅委員明才：主席站起來了，俄烏戰爭如果停止的話，你的電價要不要調降？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，俄烏戰爭之後還要看燃料價格怎麼反應，因為戰爭會造成通貨膨脹，通貨膨脹發生以後要怎麼樣子校正，那個跟戰爭結束沒有直接關係。"],["羅委員明才：你所準備的資料沒有辦法說服所有的人民，你開宗明義第一個就講了啊，主計長寫的，由於俄烏戰爭導致國際燃料價格上漲，所以費用大幅增加……"],["主席：好，是不是羅明才委員……"],["羅委員明才：所以相反來問，如果俄烏戰爭結束的話，那你應該要調降電價啊！"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，那個蛋價漲上去，早餐店漲了也沒有降呀！"],["主席：董事長、董事長，時間到了、時間到了，好不好？明才委員謝謝……"],["羅委員明才：好啦，3張紙要來要1,000億，合理嗎？"],["主席：接著請邱志偉委員質詢。","謝謝，謝謝明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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你說剛剛報告裡面講說今天這個預算會編列為暫時的這個是因為暫時是1000億是因為112年度的這個稅計剩餘要經過審計部審定之後才能夠事實上是不會根本就是超過"},{"start":41.874,"end":45.222,"text":"一百一十二年的稅基正餘（什麼時候審定啊（"},{"start":47.791,"end":68.858,"text":"一般都是在七月的時候審定那今年七月已經過了已經過了十個月了那因為在當時在編這個追加預算的時間是在七月之前但是你現在已經知道了啊現在已經確定所以我們在報告裡面講因為在編列這個追加預算案的時候審計部的那個還沒有審定所以我們在編列他審定的時候稅計剩餘是多少稅計剩餘這個可能多少112年度的"},{"start":73.238,"end":79.6,"text":"704470444億元稅計剩餘7044億元是12年是不是12年那請那個陳主席長112年的稅計剩餘有7000多億那不是打破歷年紀錄以前最高就4000多億而已啊"},{"start":98.243,"end":124.949,"text":"委員一百一十二年當年度是2790然後他有把歷年的累積剩餘再加上來到一百一十二年度累積剩餘是7044那因為有一些的部分就是轉帳之後到目前為止剩下一百五十八億因為也有編了一百一十四年度的預算包括這一筆一千億如果放算經濟我們到目前為止是剩下一百五十八億以上請回座"},{"start":127.19,"end":132.775,"text":"部長,所以你資料弄錯了。因為歷年的稅率剩餘有的已經花掉了以前的那個裡面也有這個"},{"start":138.51,"end":160.759,"text":"轉發因為那個在疫情期間也撥補然後另外又補貼國人一個人年幾千塊那個你都忘掉了嗎?是是我想我們剛剛沒有把這個前面講清楚是好112年稅率剩餘是2700多億當然有一些用在後面的預算有一些之前有一些規劃預算但是再加上這一千億的撥補"},{"start":162.776,"end":163.116,"text":"委員長 前幾天"},{"start":189.778,"end":198.761,"text":"你的報告裡面講到說跟韓國比起來我們的工業用電就是在調整價格之後我們是4.27元韓國是4.77元明顯還比他低了0.5元可是前幾天我怎麼看到媒體的報導台積電有高層當然沒有講誰在抱怨說這個電費太高已經失去國際競爭力"},{"start":217.088,"end":223.47,"text":"那難道我們比相同經濟條件工業生產國家的工業用地要高嗎?費用要高嗎?"},{"start":228.268,"end":247.276,"text":"臺積電所在的廠有好幾個但是沒有韓國所以日本的電力比我們低他現在在九州投資接下來會拿到確實的電價我們也在跟九州電力做了解因為日本對於不同的工業的用電的價格"},{"start":248.536,"end":259.811,"text":"其實他的那個試算表非常複雜（比台灣複雜非常的多（他到底是適用了什麼級距（有怎樣的優惠（我想我們會確定去了解（但是我要跟委員報告我想說（"},{"start":262.483,"end":284.548,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":284.548,"end":286.91,"text":"我跟委員報告這一點是這個樣子我們基本上還是會再跟國內的業者做一些比對跟查證"},{"start":309.728,"end":329.808,"text":"還是因為台積電有一些他必須要用綠能的用電所以他自己去跟人家短購短購的比較貴那個綠能短購的部分這個就跟不同的案場有很大的差距我想這不太容易比較是所以這件事情要釐清啦因為台積電是一個全國都矚目的公司他一旦這樣講的話你們不馬上出來澄清"},{"start":330.469,"end":351.374,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":351.534,"end":371.643,"text":"其實我是這樣講是得罪人啦但是一個每年賺上兆以上公司的錢賺上兆以上錢的公司他生產的地方在台電在台灣他適當的在這個生產的成本裡面我相信這個電價在他生產的成本裡面是微不足道"},{"start":372.688,"end":373.048,"text":"他們不是主動講的"},{"start":387.807,"end":406.118,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":406.218,"end":429.195,"text":"委員報告就是美國的工業電價一向都是全世界非常非常低但是因為美國是能源生產國很特別啦美國是能源生產國他的頁油鹽、天然氣將來川普當選之後他現在要恢復生產他根本就沒有什麼他的運輸成本跟台灣的能源的運輸成本是沒有辦法比較嘛沒錯我們需不需要加上去沒有錯"},{"start":429.918,"end":454.314,"text":"是啊 所以我是覺得要這些東西就是要溝通的不要到突然之間丟出一句話說這個太貴了事實上台灣的工業用電調整我們認為要符合你的成本我們不能拿人民的納稅權去補貼這些賺錢的企業如果這個產業是台灣集聚要發展然後他目前是處於比較困頓的階段那我們贊成"},{"start":455.336,"end":480.739,"text":"如果這個公司已經大賺錢了,要拿國家的稅金去補貼這樣子的大賺錢的公司,我覺得這個要慎重思考。不知道這樣看觀點你同不同意?報告委員,就是說我們其實您講的同意的,因為我們其實在電價審議會審查的時候,其實都有這些橫評考量,這跟委員報告。那目前來看,其實台電最多的累積虧損是積累在2022年跟2023年。"},{"start":486.763,"end":502.793,"text":"川普當選對你們是大利多,因為他恢復美國的業油鹽跟天然氣的生產之後,我們的國際之間的能源,就是這些所謂的石化能源,它的價格,大家的預估是它會下降,會降到比現在的這個油價還要再低。"},{"start":503.453,"end":530.718,"text":"所以這當然是利多成本的部分會減少但是我是覺得說跟社會的溝通隨時都要注意因為我們這麼大的公司很多事情要忙有的時候會疏於疏忽跟社會的溝通但是這個大家看這個資料看這個媒體會雞飛成石大家如果都是看到就這樣講沒看到台電怎麼講真的會誤會說你們是不是在賺這些這些工業大的生產公司的電錢"},{"start":532.145,"end":542.897,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實當天就有做一些澄清但確實聲量不夠我們會再加強好加油謝謝好接下來我們請耐斯堡委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時29分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早。你在剛剛報告裡面講說，今天這個預算會編列為暫時的1,000億，是因為112年度的歲計賸餘要經過審計部審定之後才能夠……事實上是不會……根本就是超過啦，112年的歲計賸餘什麼時候審定？"],["莊部長翠雲：一般都是在7月的時候審定。"],["吳委員秉叡：今年7月已經過了，已經過了4個月。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，因為當時在編這個追加預算的時間是在7月之前。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是你現在已經知道啦。"],["莊部長翠雲：現在已經確定，所以我們在報告裡面講，因為在編列這個追加預算案的時候，審計部還沒有審定，所以我們暫編列。"],["吳委員秉叡：那審定了之後，歲計賸餘是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：歲計賸餘可能……"],["吳委員秉叡：112年度的。"],["莊部長翠雲：7,044億元。"],["吳委員秉叡：歲計賸餘7,044億元？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，112年……"],["吳委員秉叡：112年……"],["莊部長翠雲：歲計賸餘可能主總這邊會更精確。"],["吳委員秉叡：那請陳主計長，112年的歲計賸餘有七千多億？那不是打破歷年紀錄？以前最高就四千多億而已啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，112年當年度是2,790億啦。"],["吳委員秉叡：2,790億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，然後他有把歷年的累計賸餘再加上來，到112年度，累計賸餘是7,044億，因為有一些的部分就是轉帳之後，到目前為止剩下158億，因為也有編列114年度的預算，包括這一筆1,000億，如果算進去，我們到目前為止是剩下158億，以上說明。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，請回座。部長，你資料弄錯了，因為歷年的歲計賸餘有的已經花掉了，以前的內閣裡面也有轉發，因為在疫情期間也有撥補，然後另外也有補貼國人每人幾千塊，那個你都忘掉了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是，我想剛剛……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你不能把花掉的錢……"],["莊部長翠雲：剛剛沒有把這個前面講清楚是歷年累計。"],["吳委員秉叡：112年歲計賸餘是兩千七百多億，當然有一些用在後面的預算，有一些之前規劃的預算，但是再加上這1,000億的撥補，還有剩下一百多億，是不是這樣的意思？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是。"],["吳委員秉叡：這一百多億當然就累積到後面。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你，請回座。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：請電力公司的曾董事長。"],["主席：好，曾文生董事長還有連次長。"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有、沒有，我請曾董事長就好。"],["主席：好，曾董事長。"],["吳委員秉叡：連次長請回座。"],["主席：次長請回座。"],["曾董事長文生：委員早安。"],["吳委員秉叡：前幾天你的報告裡面講到、經濟部的報告裡面講到說，跟韓國比起來，我們的工業用電就是在調整價格之後1度是4.27元。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：韓國是4.77元。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：很明顯還比它低了0.5元，可是前幾天我怎麼看到媒體的報導說，台積電有高層，當然它沒有講誰，在complain說電費太高已經失去國際競爭力，難道我們比相同經濟條件的工業生產國家的工業用電費用要高嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，台積電所在的廠有好幾個，但是沒有韓國。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以日本的電力比我們低囉？工業用電比我們低嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：它現在在九州投資，接下來會拿到確實的電價，我們也在跟九州電力做了解，因為日本對於不同的工業用電的價格，其實它的試算表非常複雜，比臺灣複雜非常多，它到底是適用了什麼級距、有怎樣的優惠，我想我們會去了解，但是我也要跟委員報告，一個上市公司基於他們自己對股東權益的立場，他們做了一些表達，這個我們都可以理解，但是整個電價的調整，事實上台電緩漲是從2022年、2023年都緩漲，這一段其實是有一個gap在。"],["吳委員秉叡：瞭解，你現在講的是我們補貼民生用電，因為在疫情期間我們凍漲所產生的這個gap。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在問的是另外一個問題，因為我們以前都很自豪說，我們在相同條件之下，我們的工業用電都是同級距、同樣類似的工業生產國家裡面費用最低的。"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，這一點是這個樣子，我們基本上還是會再跟國內業者做一些比對跟查證。"],["吳委員秉叡：還是因為台積電有一些必須要用綠能用電，所以它自己去跟人家躉購，躉購的比較貴？"],["曾董事長文生：綠能躉購的部分，這個就跟不同的案場有很大的差距，我想這不太容易比較。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，所以這件事情要釐清。"],["曾董事長文生：好的。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為台積電是一個全國都矚目的公司，一旦它這樣講，你們不馬上出來澄清，我覺得……"],["曾董事長文生：是，我們有出來……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是你們的澄清，我在媒體裡面沒有看到，所以我就覺得這對我們的政府、對你們台電公司造成很大的傷害。"],["曾董事長文生：是，這我們會持續加強澄清，台電聲量沒有那麼大，我們會來……"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊，你就了解台電聲量沒有那麼大，所以就要用更多元的方法、更大力地來講。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實我這樣講是得罪人，但是一個每年賺上兆以上的錢的公司，它生產的地方在臺灣，它適當地在生產成本裡面……我相信這個電價在它的生產成本裡面是微不足道，跟它的整體營運及獲利比起來是很小，但是它為什麼這麼重視？你們有沒有進一步去跟他們溝通了解？"],["曾董事長文生：我想是說明會上面的提問，他們不是主動講。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊，但是既然它這樣講了，我覺得你們台電這麼大的公司，他們那麼大的公司，你們是不是還是有管道溝通一下？"],["曾董事長文生：有。"],["吳委員秉叡：問它理由是什麼？原因是什麼？我不太相信它在別的國家的用電可以比臺灣的工業用電便宜，當然是指調整價格之後的。"],["曾董事長文生：不過跟委員報告，美國的工業電價一向都是全世界非常非常低……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是因為美國是能源生產國。"],["曾董事長文生：美國的工業電價很特別。"],["吳委員秉叡：美國是能源生產國，它的頁岩油、天然氣，川普當選之後，他現在恢復生產，根本就沒有……它的運輸成本跟臺灣的能源運輸成本是沒有辦法比較。"],["曾董事長文生：沒錯，蓄電成本是要加上去，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊，所以我是覺得這些東西就是要溝通的，不要讓他突然之間丟出一句話說這個太貴了，事實上臺灣的工業用電調整，我們認為要符合你的成本，我們不能拿人民的納稅錢去補貼這些賺錢的企業，如果這個產業是臺灣亟需要發展，然後它目前是處於比較困頓的階段，那我們贊成。如果這個公司已經大賺錢了，要拿國家的稅金去補貼這樣子大賺錢的公司，我覺得這個要慎重思考，不知道這樣的觀點，你同不同意？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，其實您講的，我們同意，因為電價在電價審議會審查的時候都有這些衡平考量，這跟委員報告，目前來看，其實台電最多的累積虧損是積累在2022年跟2023年，今年已經改善非常多了。"],["吳委員秉叡：了解，地緣政治的衝突，我跟你講，川普當選對你們是大利多，因為他恢復美國的頁岩油跟天然氣的生產之後，我們國際之間的能源，就是這些所謂的石化能源，大家預估它的價格會下降，會降到比現在的油價還要再低，所以這當然是利多，成本的部分會減少。但是我是覺得，跟社會的溝通隨時都要注意。"],["曾董事長文生：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為我們這麼大的公司很多事情要忙，有的時候會疏忽跟社會的溝通，但是大家看這個資料、看媒體會積非成是，如果大家都是看到這樣講，沒看到台電怎麼講，真的會誤會說你們是不是在賺這些大的工業生產公司的電錢。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我們其實當天就有做一些澄清，但確實聲量不夠，我們會再加強。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，加油，謝謝。"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝。"],["主席：接著我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","黃國昌","邱議瑩","王世堅","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案","agenda_id":"11310701_00001"}}},{"id":"157458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a77eab1092cbeaceebebea231f805397bf8386334ca12ce89d3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:28:50 - 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...那我請教你用什麼,因為這都是一個公開錄音錄影的,你用什麼費用去支應?"},{"start":350.1,"end":353.661,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":367.608,"end":370.629,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":396.758,"end":398.42,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":415.063,"end":415.904,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":430.275,"end":434.38,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":451.777,"end":453.599,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":462.916,"end":486.35,"text":"不是113年的錢都沒付了,114年的時候不是要補付113年的費用嗎?是,我跟委員報告113年的工程的進度目前南沙工程進度在上個月完成缺改了以後,完成缺改了以後缺改完了以後要進行最後運收所有的付款節點安排在114年,而且"},{"start":486.83,"end":503.307,"text":"那我請問一下113年的錢還沒付的114年要怎麼補貨付?差異差到新台幣4億都是人民的納稅錢你要怎麼補這113年還沒有付的這4億?首先我要說明的是第一個113年4億的沒有付的加114年要補給廠商預算要如何付?請回答"},{"start":506.889,"end":529.028,"text":"因為工程還沒有完成驗收啊。所以意思就是說你認為114年度整體加到113年度的預算有福報嗎?所以114年付完以後113年多用的費用是不用付的嗎?是因為工程進度的關係。他要完成缺改完了以後確認然後完成驗收以後才會進入到後面的付款結案的階段。"},{"start":529.648,"end":541.622,"text":"那這整個計畫是到本來預算就安保我跟副署長報告114年很快就到了所以我本心是希望你們在編列預算的時候不要蒙蔽主委而且過去長期以來一直預算這樣子"},{"start":546.387,"end":563.402,"text":"水域流用的一個部分一定要來去做改變而且本席其實也知道你們其實是請誰最後幫你們補這個這樣子的預算其實這樣子的做法是講白的讓人家覺得就是說政府應該率帶領大家要做預算的審查"},{"start":563.982,"end":592.461,"text":"要公開透明不要讓人家認為說政府的預算跟很多一些民間不法企業一樣感覺好像有兩套帳好像有小金庫我覺得主委我今天要講到這裡就好了希望說你們好好來做改進我答應委員就是說這個工程我一定專案把它弄到很仔細但是就是說請委員諒解就是如果還沒有驗收那付款的節點一定要等到驗收完才能夠付款那今年度的預算因為工程"},{"start":593.462,"end":596.264,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":614.734,"end":624.076,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":641.861,"end":644.202,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時28分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請管主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委早。今天要討論有關立法院針對海委會114年預算案的審查，主委我想先請教你，針對113年度的總預算，你還記得嗎？當時不管是黨團的決議跟你本身也知道的，我們有針對各機關通案先刪減有以下的項目，就是統刪的項目：有關大陸旅費30%、國外旅費跟出國訓練費5%、委辦費減列5%，還有一些車輛養護費等等費用，相信當時大家都知道，現在立法院有一個統刪的項目，就是希望立法委員在執行職權的時候，希望政府可以善用人民的納稅錢，減少花費人民的納稅錢，好好支應人民的納稅錢。我想要請教主委，在113年黨團已經同意刪除統刪的預算，請問你們有沒有拿來再支用？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們絕對要遵守統刪項目刪掉以後的預算數下去執行，我們都有遵守。"],["張委員智倫：有沒有花掉？有沒有支用？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們支用的是在被允許的範圍內，統刪的刪掉了就沒有拿來支用，不會。"],["張委員智倫：主委，看起來你是不知道，你們這些統刪的費用在113年度還是有拿來支用，所以第一個要跟主委報告，這已經違反預算法第六十三條，立法院審議減列的預算項目，如果已經用完仍有不足的時候，依照預算法第六十三條是不能流用的，主委你知道這件事嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果要流用，一定要經過核定同意才能流用。"],["張委員智倫：所以主委知道有流用的情況？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有一些項目會撙節開支以後做最後的處理，但是基本上……"],["張委員智倫：主委，不好意思，回答問題喔！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我請主計處長來說明。"],["張委員智倫：好，請說。"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，有關流用規定我們是在同一個工作計畫，各一級用途別裡面有20%可以互相流用。"],["張委員智倫：好，的確，主計處長，看來主委不知道你到底流用到哪裡，請問你流用哪些科目來做統刪費用的流用？"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，大概我們通刪的金額在調整預算的時候都把它調整好，沒有刪的部分我們有做業務費跟獎補助之間一起用途別科目的流用。"],["張委員智倫：主計處長看來是不願意正面回答問題，我這邊有手上的資料，你們海巡署所辦理的方式，就是用海巡業務設備跟投資項目來代替在113年統刪的項目，我要跟主委報告，你被蒙蔽了，因為依照預算法第二十三條，第一個，預算統刪的部分不能拿來流用，流用的部分也不能用大家所知道的國家重大建設，也就是資本門的部分不能流用，所以這一點我要跟主委報告一下，你們把所有像是「南沙太平島港側浚深及碼頭整修工程計畫」、「海巡艦艇碼頭強化計畫」等等這些費用拿來做流用的部分，主委覺得這樣可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，那應該是中長程計畫的部分有特殊的規範，這個部分我們請主計處長說明，這個案子是屬於中長程計畫的部分。"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，通刪有其通刪項目跟比率，也有一些通刪的替代條件。當初公共建設的資本門部分要配合工程，還是照金額的執行進度，因為還有餘裕，所以我們拿這個……因為我們海巡署本身的預算就沒有很多。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝處長。簡單跟你們講，第一個重點就是依照預算法的規定，被刪除的預算不應該用其他預算來流用；第二個重點，就算你流用了，也不能……簡單講就是，要你不要吃喝玩樂的錢，結果你還拿國家重要的預算，也就是把資本門的錢拿來流用當經常門的錢，這是我發給你的第一張紅牌。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們資本門不會流用到經常門。"],["張委員智倫：你等一下看一下本席講的，你就是用「海巡業務」項下的「設備及投資」這個經常門的預算流用到資本門的預算……"],["管主任委員碧玲：經常門……"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，我一直講說它有通刪的比率跟通刪的條件，通刪的項目可以……"],["張委員智倫：我也特別跟你講了，預算法第二十三條的規定我再唸一次給你聽，資本門不能流到經常門的費用，請你們會後再去瞭解一下。","我再問第三個問題，第二個問題我也非常不能接受，113年底原本應該要付給這些資本門，也就是國家重大建設的錢，為什麼可以把它流用到經常門，這些我們統刪的預算裡面？你要付給廠商的預算到底為何可以不要付？"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，我們不會把資本門的經費流用到經常門，因為法律規定是不允許的，而業務費和獎補助有20%上下限可以流，資本門……"],["張委員智倫：那我再請教你，針對第一個問題，113年這些統刪的預算，你到底是用什麼錢去支應的？不就是用資本門的預算去支應的嗎？"],["房處長銘輝：我跟委員報告，因為我們通刪的項目有通刪的項目跟比率……"],["張委員智倫：那我請教你用什麼付的？因為這裡都有公開錄音、錄影的，你用什麼費用去支應的？"],["房處長銘輝：我們等於通刪有一個計畫……"],["張委員智倫：請回答是用哪一個預算科目去支應的？"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，我們那個是替代啦！"],["張委員智倫：是用哪個預算科目去替代的？"],["房處長銘輝：我們有用到造艦的那些經費去……"],["張委員智倫：造艦的不是在資本門嗎？"],["房處長銘輝：那是替代，並不是流用。"],["張委員智倫：你用資本門裡面船艦的費用去補貼一般的經常門的預算，你還說沒有！"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，我們講的流用是在預算執行的時候。"],["張委員智倫：那我再請教你，你原本要給資本門的預算為什麼年底不用給廠商，你把這些錢都拿去經常門了，不是嗎？"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，沒有……可能要分兩種層次，一種是……"],["張委員智倫：我先請教你，這些廠商的費用為什麼不用付？你是不是去壓迫廠商，叫廠商不要付這些費用，讓他們明年再去付這些費用？"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，沒有這種狀況，我們的預算案有一個通刪的項目跟比率，我們就是用公共建設的一些經費去替代，等正式成為法定預算的時候，就沒有資本門、經常門的問題。"],["張委員智倫：好，我今天本來沒有想要這樣質詢，是你們亂回答，全部都在亂回答！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這個案是不是請我們副署長來說明，就是付款節點部分造成沒有付款給……"],["張委員智倫：你113年的經常門被我們刪除了，就是希望不要有吃喝玩樂的費用。把它刪除以後，你剛剛居然講說是拿「海巡艦艇碼頭強化計畫」的維修費用來補貼！那我就請教，113年底要付廠商費用的時候，你們要如何去面對廠商？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，這個案的付款節點是到114年，我們會請它把浚深的工程……"],["張委員智倫：這是我下個要問的問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們請副署長來說明，好不好？"],["張委員智倫：好，那我再請教副署長，114年的時候你們把113年要給廠商的預算拿到經常門去付了，114年的時候你們要如何付這些廠商的費用？113年的錢都沒付了，114年的時候不是要補付113年的費用嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：是，我跟委員報告，113年的工程進度，目前南沙工程的進度在上個月完成缺改以後，要進行最後驗收，所有的付款節點安排在114年，而且……"],["張委員智倫：我請問一下，113年的錢還沒付，114年要如何付？差異差到新臺幣4億，這些都是人民的納稅錢，你要怎麼補113年還沒有付的這4億？"],["許副署長靜芝：首先我要說明的是，第一個，資本門……"],["張委員智倫：113年的4億沒有付，114年要補給廠商的預算要如何付？請回答。"],["許副署長靜芝：因為工程還沒有完成驗收，工程沒有驗收……"],["張委員智倫：所以意思是就是說，你認為114年度，整體加上113年度的預算有浮報嗎？所以114年付完以後，113年挪用的費用4億是不用付了嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：跟委員報告，是因為工程進度的關係，它要缺改完成，確認、完成驗收以後才會進入到後面付款結案的階段，這整個計畫的預算本來是安排到114年……"],["張委員智倫：我跟副署長報告，114年很快就到了，所以本席希望你們在編列預算的時候不要蒙蔽主委，而且過去長期以來，預算一直隨意流用的部分一定要改變，而且本席也知道你們是請誰最後幫你們補這樣子的預算。其實這樣子的做法，講白了，會讓人家覺得政府應該要帶領大家做預算的審查，要公開、透明，不要讓人家認為政府的預算跟很多民間不法的企業一樣，感覺好像有兩套帳、好像有小金庫。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會、不會。"],["張委員智倫：主委，我覺得我今天講到這裡就好了，希望你們好好改進。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我答應委員，這個工程一定會專案把它弄到很仔細，但是請委員諒解，如果還沒有驗收，付款的節點一定要等到驗收完才能夠付款，今年度的預算因為工程那邊延後，我們會保留……"],["張委員智倫：我瞭解，你們如果最後……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有問題，一定會如實……"],["張委員智倫：你113年少付廠商的4億，114年的預算加上113年少付給廠商的錢，如果不夠付……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有問題，不會少付。"],["張委員智倫：為什麼不會少付？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為我們預算可以保留。"],["張委員智倫：因為預算之前……難道你整個計畫案裡面，有4億是浮編的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是工程進度的問題。"],["張委員智倫：有4億是浮編的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不，是因為進度落後，所以還沒付。因為工程進度落後，沒辦法完成驗收，所以還沒有付，不會浮編。"],["張委員智倫：你現在是缺4億，你有4億的錢補到經常門了，難道還聽不懂嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：資本門絕對不會補經常門，這是違法的，所以絕對沒有。"],["張委員智倫：剛剛副署長都特別講了，他不是把「海巡艦艇碼頭強化計畫」的修繕費用拿去補了嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有、沒有，這是誤會。"],["主席：張委員，我請他們去向你講清楚，好不好？"],["張委員智倫：沒有要做專案報告啦！"],["主席：私底下跟你講清楚。"],["張委員智倫：我只是最後拜託主委，你不要被蒙蔽，政府的預算不要像民間大家所講的，政府預算你們隨意花用，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請跟張委員講清楚，好不好？","我們請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-12","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","吳琪銘","羅智強","丁學忠","許宇甄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政\n府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及\n所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬\n單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金─ 海洋污染防治基金","agenda_id":"11310602_00001"}}},{"id":"157457","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157457","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177ae46f6e51e622620faab8b86039943efcf8386334ca12ce8957ff7adbaa11be625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:27:33 - 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謝謝主席 我們有請劉秘書長請劉秘書長"},{"start":25.443,"end":41.637,"text":"祕書長早陳院長由於我們這個考試院的這個院長跟副院長還有相關的委員目前都還在這個審查過程那院會未能如往常一樣正常的來召開相關的會議"},{"start":42.982,"end":68.499,"text":"導致我們考試院只能迫於採取權宜措施,盡可能維持相關業務正常的推動。也就是如同在書面報告的結語裡面所說的,考試院現階段仍然是處於看守的一個狀態。不管是重大的政策或是法案的審查,都得等到新的委員上任之後才能夠繼續來推動。"},{"start":70.16,"end":92.501,"text":"所以今天我想先就考試院相關的業務的辦理情形來就教我們祕書長從過去幾年的這個時間我們看到報考公職的人數有逐年下滑的趨勢但是在今年高考的實施規模減病考科減輕考生的應考的負擔之後我們看到"},{"start":93.547,"end":97.893,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":108.049,"end":126.368,"text":"推斷上面應該覺得這個是有效果的因為從瞭解考生的反應也認為說因為檢考兩科專業科目的確大幅減輕了相關的負擔好那未來我們其他的這種考試是否都會朝向減少這個考科的這個方向來"},{"start":127.249,"end":144.419,"text":"我們從高普考開始推動起,陸續擴展到包含地方特考、離島特考等等。其他部分的特考應該是包含外交跟國際經貿人員等等,還有原住民跟身障特考都是。"},{"start":147.041,"end":167,"text":"我昨天在詢問許副院長被提名人的時候對於公職對年輕人失去吸引力的主要原因來做探討尤其是逆世代的年輕人因為對於工作條件的選擇以及注重的價值不同"},{"start":167.62,"end":178.527,"text":"那相似的這種問題我想請教秘書長考試院應該如何來提高我們1990年以後出生的這些逆世代報考的一個意願"},{"start":181.174,"end":205.346,"text":"我們的確理解到不同的世代在這個職場文化上面會有不一樣的習慣跟傾向那我們也擔心就是年輕世代的斜槓或者是跨域或者是更重視生活的平衡這些傾向可能跟公部門的體質會有所不合"},{"start":207.006,"end":223.977,"text":"所以我覺得一方面是我們要去改善公務部門的管理跟內部的制度讓公務部門的運作不會讓年輕人覺得那麼難以適應另外一方面從考試院這邊從考試端我們要加強去宣導"},{"start":224.837,"end":247.771,"text":"除了其實一方面的宣導的效果可能一方面也在於說讓年輕人更了解公職這份意義我想現在年輕人都很清楚公務員絕對不是大家以前想像的輕鬆或單純或沒有挑戰性的工作也許就是因為看到了民主化之後的各種挑戰但是也因為他因此而可能帶來一些成就感那我們希望是讓更適合更有"},{"start":248.371,"end":258.11,"text":"更能掌握這份工作價值的年輕人更了解公職的工作而願意投入所以這個宣導是有意義的而不是只是坐在那邊等著考生自動報名"},{"start":260.448,"end":279.004,"text":"因為缺工的問題特別是我們台灣現在各行各業各行各業都非常的嚴重面臨這種缺工的問題公司部門之間都在搶人才尤其高普考近年來不足的這種人數以及比率都上升了"},{"start":279.665,"end":308.204,"text":"部分的類科缺額較多包括土木工程、水力工程、機械工程及技術類科不足額的情況明顯以外除了先前考選部所提出包括檢討命題及給分標準的改善方向以外秘書長認為我們在技術類科錄取不足額難引進人才的問題"},{"start":309.745,"end":329.457,"text":"該如何改善?這可能就要跨院跨部會一起來努力啦我跟委員報告像這個不足額的部分其實集中在少部分的類科那我們觀察到比如我們以土木工程這幾年的狀況來講大家看到的是不足額的數量一直都這兩年一直都有不足額100多人的問題"},{"start":330.458,"end":357.749,"text":"但是大家可能比較沒有注意到是需求端其實不斷在增加這三年來土木工程的相關在應該是高考裡面的缺額每年增加一兩百人所以考入取人數也持續在增加但是我們入取人數一直在追但追不上需用人數的增加所以它可能有一部分是在於用人端是不是有流失的問題所以這個部分過去"},{"start":359.11,"end":370.056,"text":"主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":375.37,"end":389.778,"text":"好那這部分再請我們秘書長跟部長這邊再去多加協調那過去這幾年考選部都有編列一筆預算來辦理這個預備文官團的相關研習活動希望能夠借鏡新加坡"},{"start":390.518,"end":415.973,"text":"提早培養文官的這種做法來增加年輕人應考的公職人員的這種人數但是我們這個預備文官團的計畫似乎好像在去年就停下來沒有看到今年有任何辦理的相關消息那我想請問秘書長未來我們預備文官團是否不再辦理了或是還是我們有其他的這種替代方案有在這個辦理當中"},{"start":417.83,"end":419.116,"text":"我是不是讓劉部長來說明比較清楚"},{"start":423.62,"end":446.38,"text":"委員好,預備文官團是一個非常好的理念,考選部也應該積極參與人才招募,不過我們檢討之後發現在青年署這邊本來就有一個青年公部門的見習,其實我們比較好是跟他結合,因為他的量體到達450到600人一年,比起我們原先預備文官團,"},{"start":447.901,"end":453.843,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":477.069,"end":501.194,"text":"另外昨天我有詢問副院長貝提名人有關如何加速國家考試的相關數月轉型他說新世代對於科技應用能力比較強年輕人用手寫會比較困難如果用符合習慣資訊化的方式來處理或許能夠降低考試的障礙"},{"start":503.174,"end":521.502,"text":"包括過去我們僅有6000個電腦座位目前已經增加到16000台左右但對於舉辦大型的這種考試還是相對不足可能要把這種筆記型的電腦納入我想請問秘書長或是部長對於明年"},{"start":522.822,"end":529.545,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選"},{"start":549.914,"end":574.407,"text":"這中間的電力不能有任何的狀況發生那我們這個就要牽涉到所謂UPS再加上發電機的類似的方案那整個學校的基建設備都要檢視過那我們希望可以在115到116的時候把前端的準備工作都做好然後來推進到因為深論體是一個比較高風險的地方但是我們大概可以再經過114、115年的整備讓它逐步的上路以上"},{"start":574.827,"end":603.924,"text":"好,那我們現在有沒有設定那個未來可能增加電腦數的一個目標目前的話我們大概最終的目標是希望能夠把護理的考試都拿進來那護理的考試目前大概會到達一萬四到一萬五中間但是我們不能光是正好的座位數因為會有區域不同另外要留備員的數目在那裡所以我們希望大概可以達到一萬八左右但是我們希望在區域可以更加的平衡"},{"start":604.726,"end":606.09,"text":"這是我們現在努力的方向 以上"},{"start":607.969,"end":635.582,"text":"這個有關我們國家考試的這種數位轉型在我們事務資訊當中我們點示人口網的建置進度根據政府採購網的相關資料考選部投入將近1500萬委外建置的相關經費並且依這個標案上的履約規定應該在下週12月3號之前就能夠建置完成那我想請教祕書長那典型入口網建置的這種進度預計何時能夠上線使用"},{"start":638.367,"end":653.015,"text":"那是不是我們再把相關的資料提供給委員他有再按照進度進行那這部分就會後給我資料那我們接下來這種典事委員的遴選命題還有這個改考卷是不是就會全部走向資訊化"},{"start":655.153,"end":676.344,"text":"這個還沒有辦法一步到位因為要牽涉到前端要把所有的試卷也要全部的予以那個數位化他才能進行數位化的月卷那目前我們大概還沒有到這個程度那這是我們接下來要努力的目標就是要至少能夠確定或盡量努力讓我們所有的第一步先做到所有的"},{"start":676.964,"end":705.046,"text":"四卷可以數位化進入然後我們再用月卷系統來控它以上大概是我們接下來的方向好我相信這種國家考試的這種數位轉型是時代變遷的一個需求那也能夠符合當下科技使用的相關習慣也能夠讓我們典事人員作業上更加的方便順道可以提升我們辦理國考的相關效能所以我期待我們考試院繼續努力好謝謝我們秘書長跟部長謝謝"},{"start":706.668,"end":707.288,"text":"主管總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時27分）好，謝謝主席，有請劉秘書長。"],["主席：請劉秘書長。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長早。"],["劉秘書長建忻：陳委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：由於考試院的院長、副院長還有相關的委員，目前都還在審查過程，院會未能如往常一樣正常地召開相關的會議，導致考試院只能迫於採取權宜措施，盡可能維持相關業務的正常推動，也就是如同這個書面報告結語裡面所說的，考試院現階段仍然是處於看守的狀態，不管是重大的政策或是法案的審查，都得等到新的委員上任之後才能夠繼續來推動，所以今天我想先就考試院相關業務的辦理情形來就教秘書長。從過去幾年的時間，我們看到報考公職的人數有逐年下滑的趨勢，但是在今年高考實施大規模減併考科，減輕考生的應考負擔之後，我們看到今年的報考人數、錄取人數相較於去年有微幅的增加。我想請教秘書長，今年考生增加的主要原因，是因為我們考科調整奏效了嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：推斷上覺得這個應該是有效果的，從了解考生的反映，也認為因為減考兩科專業科目的確大幅減輕了相關的負擔。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，未來我們其他的考試是否都會朝向減少考科的這個方向來做處理？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們從高普考開始推動起，陸續擴展到包含地方特考、離島特考等等，然後其他部分的特考應該是包含外交跟國際經貿人員等等，還有原住民跟身障特考都是減科的方向。"],["陳委員俊宇：我昨天在詢問許副院長被提名人的時候，對於公職對年輕人失去吸引力的主要原因來做探討，尤其是Z世代的年輕人，因為對於工作條件的選擇以及注重的價值不同，相似的這種問題我想請教秘書長，考試院應該如何來提高1990年以後出生的這些Z世代報考的意願？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們的確理解到不同的世代在職場文化上面會有不一樣的習慣跟傾向，我們也擔心年輕世代的斜槓或者是跨域或者是更重視生活的平衡，這些傾向可能跟公部門的體質會有所不合，所以我覺得一方面是我們要去改善公部門的管理跟內部的制度，讓公部門的運作不會讓年輕人覺得那麼難以適應。另外一方面，從考試院的考試端，我們要加強去宣導，其實宣導的效果可能一方面也是在於讓年輕人更了解公職這份意義，我想現在年輕人都很清楚，公務員絕對不是大家以前想像的輕鬆或單純或沒有挑戰性的工作，也許就是因為也看到了民主化之後的各種挑戰，但是也因此可能帶來一些成就感，我們希望是讓更適合、更能夠掌握這份工作價值的年輕人更了解公職的工作而願意投入，所以這個宣導是有意義的，而不只是坐在那邊等著考生自動報名。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。因為缺工的問題，特別是我們臺灣現在各行各業都面臨非常嚴重的缺工問題，公私部門之間都在搶人才，尤其高普考近年來不足額的人數以及比率都上升了，部分類科缺額較多，包括土木工程、水利工程及機械工程等技術類科，不足額的這種情況明顯以外，除了先前考選部所提出包括檢討命題以及給分標準的改善方向以外，秘書長認為在技術類科錄取不足額，難引進人才的這種問題，我們應該要如何來改善？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這可能就要跨院、跨部會一起來努力，我跟委員報告，像不足額的部分其實集中在少部分的類科，我們觀察到，比如以土木工程這幾年的狀況來講，大家看到的是不足額的數量，這兩年一直都有不足額一百多人的問題，但是大家可能比較沒有注意到的是需求端其實不斷在增加，這三年來高考土木工程的缺額，每年增加1、200人，所以錄取人數也持續在增加，我們錄取人數一直在追，但是追不上需用人數的增加，所以可能有一部分是在於用人端是不是有流失的問題。這個部分過去考選部跟相關部會有一個考訓用的平臺來協調，所以有幾年這個狀況有改善，但這兩年看起來比較嚴重，所以剛剛我跟劉部長也在討論，我們未來可能要重啟這個平臺，來跟用人端一起解決相關的問題。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這部分請我們秘書長跟部長再去多加協調。過去這幾年，考選部都有編列一筆預算來辦理預備文官團的相關研習活動，希望能夠借鏡新加坡提早培養文官的這種作法來增加年輕人應考公職人員的人數，但是這個預備文官團的計畫好像在去年就停下來，沒有看到今年有任何辦理的相關消息。我想請問秘書長，未來我們預備文官團是否不再辦理了，還是有其他的替代方案在辦理當中？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我是不是讓劉部長來說明比較清楚？"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["劉部長孟奇：委員好。預備文官團其實是一個非常好的理念，考選部也應該積極的參與人才招募，不過我們檢討之後發現在青年署這邊本來就有一個青年公部門的見習，其實我們比較好是跟它結合，因為它的量體一年到達450到600人，比起我們原先的預備文官團，量體跟它不能相比，這第一個。第二個，我們希望更強化的，其實是要善用各個大學已經具有的職輔人員，包含他們的輔導老師，強化對他們相關的國考訊息以及應考方向，讓他們在大學的時候，就已經知道如何善用學校的課程跟教學資源來進行準備，我們希望接下來就朝這個方向來精進推動，等於是說做一個轉型。以上報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。另外，昨天我有詢問副院長被提名人，有關如何來加速國家考試的相關數位轉型，他說新世代對於科技應用能力比較強，年輕人用手寫會比較困難，如果用符合習慣、資訊化的這種方式來處理，或許能夠降低考試的障礙，包括過去我們僅有6,000個電腦座位，目前已經增加到一萬六千臺左右，但對於舉辦大型的考試還是相對不足，可能要把筆記型的電腦納入。我想請問秘書長或是部長，對於明年擴大推動電腦化測試轉型的規劃，目前有什麼想法？"],["劉部長孟奇：跟委員報告，我們有一個113年到116年獲得行政院來協助支持的數位轉型計畫，基本上雖然現在座位數衝上去，但是我們要解決兩個問題，第一個，要確保考試中間的網路完全穩定，萬一有發生狀況，如何處理；第二個，要確定這中間所有的電力不能有任何的狀況發生，這個就牽涉到所謂UPS再加上發電機的類似方案，整個學校的機電設備都要檢視過，我們希望可以在115到116的時候，把前端的準備工作都做好，然後來推進，因為申論題是比較高風險的地方，但是我們大概可以再經過114、115年的整備，讓它逐步的上路。以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們現在有沒有設定未來可能增加電腦數的目標？"],["劉部長孟奇：我們最終的目標大概是希望能夠把護理的考試都納進來，護理的考試目前大概會到達一萬四到一萬五中間，但是我們不能光是正好的座位數，因為會有區域不同，另外要留備援的數目，所以我們希望大概可以達到一萬八左右，但是我們希望在區域可以更加的平衡，這是我們現在努力的方向。以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：有關我們國家考試的數位轉型，在試務資訊當中典試入口網的建置進度，根據政府採購網的相關資料，考選部投入將近1,500萬委外建置的相關經費，並且依標案上的履約規定，應該在下週12月3號之前就能夠建置完成。我想請教秘書長，典試入口網建置的進度預計何時能夠上線使用？"],["劉部長孟奇：是不是我們再把相關的資料提供給委員？它有在按照進度進行。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這部分就會後給我資料。","接下來典試委員的遴選、命題還有改考卷，是不是就會全部走向資訊化？"],["劉部長孟奇：這個還沒有辦法一步到位，因為它牽涉到前端，也要把所有的試卷全部予以數位化，才能進行數位化的閱卷，目前我們大概還沒有到這個程度，這是我們接下來要努力的目標，就是要至少能夠確定或儘量努力，讓我們第一步先做到所有的試卷可以數位化進入，然後我們再用閱卷系統來控它，以上大概是我們接下來的方向。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我相信國家考試的數位轉型是時代變遷的需求，能夠符合當下科技使用的相關習慣，也能夠讓我們典試人員作業上更加的方便，順道可以提升我們辦理國考的相關效能，所以我期待考試院繼續努力，謝謝秘書長跟部長。"],["劉部長孟奇：謝謝委員。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝秘書長和部長。","接下來有請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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有請副局長 還有警政署副署長 謝謝"},{"start":15.55,"end":33.499,"text":"喂好你好那這個目前我們這個中國的威脅當然是加劇但是最近其實統戰活動也真的非常的多然後加上這一次的恐嚇案件應該是層出不窮那我大概有幾個小問題想要先確認一下就是說這個一開始我們這一個事件發生的時候呢然後就發現說有這一個"},{"start":35.44,"end":62.975,"text":"按照報告指出有炸彈恐嚇的訊息目前共計30案等等之類的那我想問一下就是說第一個就是我們的反應時間目前來講就是說這件事情它從發生一直到第一個我們接獲訊息接獲訊息之後我們馬上處理這個處理的時間大概是多快以及我們是多快去研判說這一個可能是由敵對國家的勢力所發出的"},{"start":66.025,"end":82.672,"text":"跟委員報告相關的實際的應處我們在接獲這個民眾通報以後就立刻應處那處理查處溯源這些因為是透由我們的警政署刑事局協助那是不是由刑事局來協助"},{"start":87.321,"end":116.801,"text":"我想跟委員所詢問的我們轄區的警察單位接到報案以後都第一時間的趕到現場去處理然後接受相關不管是公部門或是相關的業者的報案我們進行處理像我們一開始9個案件以後分析就馬上報到這個我們這個刑事局的專案小組來彙整那大概是多快研判到說是跟境外有關"},{"start":121.985,"end":143.223,"text":"因為前面那九個案我們接獲了以後大概一個禮拜以後分析以後大概都是從境外進來的境外跳板進來的所以大概一個禮拜以內那現在就是因為我看到報告裡面也有提到之前有那個什麼一個張信的也是很愛做恐嚇嘛對不對然後一直到現在這一個案件那我們要怎麼去"},{"start":143.923,"end":145.024,"text":"警政署應對案件的SOP是怎樣?"},{"start":172.042,"end":189.665,"text":"因為我們接到報案以後第一時間當然是分析這個郵件的來源那基本上他一定是這段期間有一些特定的議題他才會發出這些這個恐怖的郵件那我們發現以後當然就是說我們的"},{"start":190.746,"end":211.471,"text":"我們當然平常就有注重這種追查科技偵查的這個技巧那案件發生以後當然是陸陸續續發生以後我們當然研判這個案件的由來那由來我們當然一直追查有透過剛剛國安局的報告還有我們手上的資料有14個國家他從"},{"start":213.41,"end":219.679,"text":"特定的地點然後透過14個國家的跳板再到我們這邊來這一次包括有14個機構公部門還有私部門的機構接到這些郵件"},{"start":229.633,"end":242.883,"text":"我為什麼這樣問就是因為假設我們能夠蒐集的案件越充足我們越能夠去比對說他到底是什麼時候開始什麼時候開始他已經有練兵的傾向因為我之前我有說過我很經常的收到這些釣魚案件"},{"start":244.364,"end":270.216,"text":"這些釣魚有些可能是來自於境外有些可能是境內然後我後來呢去問一些我們譬如說我們在這邊的民意代表或是我們黨籍的地方的民意代表我後來才發現大家都很常收到但是恐嚇大家第一時間一定會反應但如果是釣魚信件大家不一定會去回報他可能就啊那釣魚就把它弄過去但其實呢我照理說應該要有一個比較完善的機制我們應該要 urge這些尤其是政府的公務人員"},{"start":271.156,"end":287.923,"text":"而且有些是民意代表他對這個比較不熟悉有些在公務體系的你可以去說你要記得要回報但是民意代表他不一定會做這樣的事情但如果說因為民意代表是一個非常重要他們能夠釣魚比如說在立法院他們要能夠取得機密事項什麼等等之類還想要去攻破你的電腦"},{"start":288.923,"end":315.565,"text":"如果有更大的這個數據的收集我們知道他們什麼時候對大量的人不管是委員還是地方的議員去送了這個釣魚信件那這個時候再去用一樣的方式像剛剛講的如果發現它的來源它是來自於哪些IP來自於哪些國家然後再跟後面的這個口號案件做比對的時候可能會發現更多的線索而且我們在預判的時候可能會更為精準那所以這邊我們以後之後也會建議就是有可能不一定要透過修法"},{"start":315.965,"end":316.305,"text":"主席文化部"},{"start":338.951,"end":347.381,"text":"現在對我來說是比較困擾的一件事情就是除了這一次這個國有器官的議題之外我們現在也有像馬龍有幾個相關的運動員他們現在也要來到台灣當然其實陸委會是說沒問題"},{"start":356.832,"end":385.067,"text":"但我現在比較擔心的就是我們看到這個文化部的立場當然是認為說兩岸交流我們不一定不能停嘛 對不對他們本來就是有各式各樣的交流但中國的交流畢竟還是帶有非常強大的一個政治目的我還記得在很多年以前我們對於藝人去那邊開演唱會去那邊交流我們都抱持著開放的態度嘛他們想要賺錢那也是他的事情但現在呢我們已經面臨到非常多的狀況第一個就是藝人本身的言論已經越來越偏激了"},{"start":385.527,"end":408.243,"text":"現在已經有藝人可以直接講出台獨死路一條這句話而且是越來越多人講這句話那這個對我們來講就已經是有可能會踩到紅線那更不要講說呢今天有些藝人他可能本身並沒有什麼問題但他可能在台灣去接觸別的人像我們最近爆發的這一個這個軍人說什麼會五星旗這個案件他最早也是透過宗教的交流"},{"start":408.883,"end":428.622,"text":"他先透過宗教的交流之後呢再由那個宗教的人去接觸一個現役的軍人然後再由現役的軍人說拍一個影片然後揮個五星旗然後做成短影片在中國播放所以這種事情變得越來越多的狀況之下我們也知道照理說在這一個的安全上國家安全的維護上面國安局"},{"start":429.122,"end":454.37,"text":"跟這個陸委會當然是非常重要的決策單位那我們一般但因為陸委會他畢竟他是有點類似幕僚單位他的執法或者說他們今天去查緝或者去規範的量能絕對沒有第一線其他的機關來得更快那所以說就文化部的一個立場就是說在以後針對這些兩岸交流他有風險的狀況之下是不是可能每一個部門開始要自己的一些SOP"},{"start":455.322,"end":478.36,"text":"跟委員說明其實這些不管是因為什麼理由只要是跟文化相關的理由譬如說他是因為拍電影要來或者是因為要演唱會要來其實文化部在這一關是協助內政部跟陸委會我們其實是共同有做一個審查的也就是說我們其實還是會基於他來台灣的目的而且也會在裡面要求他他來台灣的時候不能做他目的以外的事情也不能從事對台灣影響兩岸的平等原則這一類的發言所以如果說"},{"start":482.984,"end":502.19,"text":"他已經有這樣的發言紀錄他基本上就會列成他審查的條件的考量之一所以也並不是說他只要說要來都可以來基本上還是有一個審查的程序在那他如果說過去其實沒有什麼不良紀錄那他這次來了之後有不好的發言的時候那當然就依據台灣的法律再來做規範"},{"start":503.115,"end":529.327,"text":"對 但我們現在比較擔心的就是這個目的以外的行為很不好像上次有這個記者的事件他做了目的以外的行為但我們其實不知道這後來有人爆出來了但他人也已經離境了所以就是說今天我們在查這件事情的量能的時候我們知道他不能做目的以外的行為但我們有時候無法得知他有沒有去做目的以外的行為那所以這個之後呢不管是透過修法還是增加量能我們必須可能對這些事情要有更強烈的一些態度那因為時間到了我大概問到這邊謝謝 謝委員長謝謝沈伯洋委員來 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我們來看一下國際的戰爭二屋戰爭之後讓整個國防系統有了一個省思我們無人機如何輕量化包括我民用的貨車你希望有電動卡車電動卡車是要載貨的所以當你的電池越大的時候當然它載貨量就少所以電池的輕量化機載的輕量化電池的輕量化這個是一個趨勢市場的量體在哪裡"},{"start":179.454,"end":179.574,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":199.565,"end":209.81,"text":"的這樣的一個無人機市場這是臺灣有機會的所以他的電池的這個固態電池是我們的利基那我為什麼說他有利基呢這個來臺灣固態電池啊切入高單價這邊啊這個我要這個爬梳出來這前三家都是美國的企業第四家呢叫輝能他是臺灣的廠商中國的資金但是工廠在法國"},{"start":228.138,"end":245.171,"text":"後面這一家是用臺灣的資源去給工研院研發出來育成的這個廠商愛國者能源但是他的產能我這邊列出來的是國際固態電池的優秀的廠商我們可以排名進去耶"},{"start":249.689,"end":251.95,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分。 ：林岱樺"},{"start":278.231,"end":294.66,"text":"他有更輕的重量第三他有更長的續航力這張表在我的這個電子的模組的能量他可以呢這個可以固態的優於液態的將近三倍他的行駛的車輛固態電池可以應液態電池達到35%到70那他的成本每一次充電的成本他可以降低30%到70"},{"start":304.165,"end":331.518,"text":"好再來從國安的角度黎巴嫩的爆炸事件美聯社多名的專家認為很可能是呼叫器的供應鏈被入侵在製作過程當中已會已經填入炸藥電池只有過充過熱才會爆炸他現在是數千具的bb扣同時爆炸所以這個只有可能很大的可能是供應鏈深入高爆性的炸藥才有可能好"},{"start":332.438,"end":344.324,"text":"那我們的族人裡面的電子星BBCODE都可以用電子星當中導入爆藥而讓它集體爆炸你說這個電子星這個電子模組我要不要去紅化"},{"start":345.63,"end":361.621,"text":"政府基於國安的理由,接近黎巴嫩的爆炸,面臨特殊區域政治形勢,政府及國營事業的光儲能設備是否列為關鍵基礎設施?中油已經將儲油設施列為關鍵基礎設備,那台電是不是要重新檢討你的光儲能廠是否要列為關鍵基礎設施?"},{"start":375.65,"end":378.453,"text":"國際市場推廣過程中,臺灣是優勢而且是用政府資源去支持出來的。經濟部當然要支持"},{"start":390.963,"end":409.736,"text":"國內的固態離電池的製造產業,切入國際的固態離電池的南海市場,擺脫中國製的電池業者。好,本席的具體要求也請部長能夠具體回應。據區域政治的情勢,國安考量政府經國一企業的關鍵基礎設施,嚴禁中國製設備進入國家標案,檢視線有了太陽光電"},{"start":417.46,"end":437.584,"text":"發電設備結合儲能系統的設備你這個蓄能系統也就是跟電子型電子模組電子型有關我們有國內的你可以國內也有液態日韓也有液態我們都有替代產品固態的是我們自己現在正在研發的好那我覺得這是中油都可以把它的儲能潮當作關鍵基礎聲勢台電的你的儲能系統"},{"start":443.385,"end":460.3,"text":"要不然你的綠能發電你一定要有完備的儲能系統才能穩定電力阿第二個因應川普當選去紅化可能是國際市場的主要影響重點輔導國產的固態電池產業協助推廣到國內外的電動載具及無人載具部長怎麼針對這兩個訴求您回應一下"},{"start":467.426,"end":483.37,"text":"是,我們謝謝這個委員的隨詢。我想對第一點,我們會馬上深入的這個檢討。那麼未來這個屬於這個國家的這個標案,那麼就是類似這個太陽能發電這些設備啊這些儲能的這個標準規範裡面,我們會訂出來這個"},{"start":489.133,"end":510.095,"text":"去紅化這是第一點第二點就是我們這個固態電池確實是如委員所垂詢的我們現在工研院正加速在跟這個產業在合作所以我相信在大家的祝福之下我們希望這個明後年就能夠開始量產大量量產"},{"start":511.216,"end":517.178,"text":"這個量產我真的需要你們這個經濟部你看這張圖這張圖你看因為我們的公司小所以你看當後你2027到2028也就三四年後今年2024你看這個全球的美國的部分他量產每年到91GWh"},{"start":533.044,"end":560.76,"text":"到這個他的前三家都到80到100這當中但是我們國內每年只能到20GWh我們有技術我們只是在資金人才這個部分要多一些助力所以在相關的這個輔導計畫我拜託這個部長您是不是要加碼一下我們這個都有一些鼓勵的政策來那技術師師長你有點頭來你要怎麼輔導我是不是部長讓技術師來講一下"},{"start":565.626,"end":570.752,"text":"技術上已經有進行一些開發,但是後續的話就是要去進行後續的量產的協助,那我們政府一定要大力的來與協助。"},{"start":583.247,"end":600.085,"text":"部長、市長這個在跟時間賽跑既然現在的無人機包括電動機的輕量化這就是在這次惡霧戰爭中很明顯的轉變市場的一個局勢如果國內有這樣的技術我還不加碼搶進這個市場在兩三年後我們就沒有這個"},{"start":601.947,"end":613.876,"text":"我們會跟國發會來討論國發基金可不可以來投還有台山基金可不可以投我想這個我們會有一些技術專家來做一些評斷市長一定有這個機會謝謝委員學訓"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":176,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時23分）有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：好。部長，本席今天的質詢主題是能源政策應該鏈結國安跟產業發展，不是只有產業發展，還要國安，並聚焦在太陽光電發電設備結合儲能系統的去紅化。好，我們來看經濟部公布了太陽光電發電設備結合儲能系統的競標公告，公告日期是在11月6號，不久前，這個公告說實在的也沒有寫禁用中國製的電池芯或相關的模組，本席再繼續索資，你們出了這一張公文，這個公文最後這一頁就講到說「……承攬商得選用中國製電池（芯）」。","為什麼我要特別講這件事？中國的電池芯有沒有替代方案？當然有！國內也有，日本、韓國都有。它的嚴重性在哪裡？我們先看傳統的電池芯叫做液態電池芯，在2022年（前年）的統計，中國、日本、韓國囊括了全球液態鋰電池的產量近三分之二，如同右上角這一張方塊圖所呈現出來的，全球近六成的液態鋰電池芯電池組三分之二被中日韓囊括了，但是在電池芯的部分，液態鋰電池芯六成是來自中國，我們國內的電池現在的總產量，整個電池組的總產量占全國液態鋰電池不到百分之二。我們國內的電池發展有沒有利基呢？當然有！我們應該鎖定高功率及創新應用的固態鋰電池，而不是液態，搶下高單價的利基市場，所謂高單價的利基市場後面我會講，我們的市場在哪裡？在無人機、在電動車。部長，我們來看一下國際的戰爭，俄烏戰爭之後，讓整個國防系統有了一個省思，我們無人機如何輕量化？包括民用的貨車，你希望有電動卡車，電動卡車是要載貨的，當你的電池越大的時候，當然它的載貨量就少，所以機載的輕量化、電池的輕量化是一個趨勢，市場的量體在哪裡？第一個，在戰爭期間，我如果準備1萬台的無人機，我就必須準備十倍，甚至百倍的庫存量，因為它是消耗品，一打下來就沒有了，在整個俄烏戰爭當中，我要不要去搶那一倍、十倍、甚至百倍的無人機市場？這是臺灣有機會的，所以固態電池芯是我們的利基。","我為什麼說它有利基呢？臺灣固態鋰電池切入高單價市場，我爬梳出來，前三家都是美國企業，第四家叫輝能，它是臺灣的廠商，中國的資金，但是工廠在法國。後面這一家是用臺灣的資源去給工研院，由工研院研發出來育成的廠商──愛國者能源，但是它的產能，我這邊列出來的是國際固態電池的優秀廠商，我們可以排名進去耶！而且是用國家資源去支持出來的。固態鋰電池跟傳統電池相比到底有什麼優勢呢？我用下面這一張表來說明，右邊是固態鋰電池，不管是樹脂、鋰或者是陶瓷，都有；左邊是液態電池。固態優於液態電池，我就以電動車為例，固態比液態有更高的能量密度、更輕的重量、更長的續航力，再看這張表，在電池模組能量方面，固態可以優於液態將近三倍；它行駛的里程，固態電池可以比液態電池提升35%到70%；它每一次充電的成本可以降低30%到70%。","再來，從國安的角度，黎巴嫩的爆炸事件，美聯社多名專家認為很可能是呼叫器供應鏈被入侵，在製作過程當中就已經填入炸藥。電池只有過充、過熱才會爆炸，但現在是數千具的BB Call同時爆炸，所以這有很大的可能是供應鏈滲入高爆性炸藥。而我們的儲能裡面的電子芯，BB Call都可以在電池芯當中滲入爆藥而讓它集體爆炸了，你說這個電池芯、這個電池模組要不要去紅化？政府基於國安的理由，借鏡黎巴嫩的爆炸事件，面臨特殊區域政治形勢，政府及國營事業的光儲能設備是否列為關鍵基礎設施？我這邊舉出中油跟台電，中油已經將儲油設施列為關鍵基礎設備囉！台電是不是要重新檢討你的光儲能廠是否要列為關鍵基礎設施？這你們要重新檢討。在產業面，剛才已經呈現得很清楚了，我們固態電池在國際市場推廣過程當中，臺灣是具有優勢，而且是用政府資源去支持出來的，經濟部當然要支持國內固態鋰電池的製造產業，協助切入國際固態鋰電池的藍海市場，擺脫中國製電子業者的市場掠奪。","本席的具體要求，也請部長能夠具體回應。基於區域政治情勢國安考量，政府及國營企業的關鍵基礎設施，嚴禁中國製設備進入國家標案，檢視現有「太陽光電發電設備結合儲能系統競標」規則。你這個儲能系統，也就是跟電子模組、電子芯有關，我們有國內的，國內也有液態，日韓也有液態，我們都有替代產品，固態的是我們自己現在正在研發的，中油都可以把它的儲能槽當作關鍵基礎設施，台電的儲能系統呢？你的綠能發電一定要有完備的儲能系統才能穩定電力啊！第二個，因應川普當選，去紅化可能是國際產業主流影響，重點輔導國產固態電池產業，協助推廣到國內外的電動載具及無人載具應用。部長，針對這兩個訴求，您回應一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的垂詢，對於第一點，我們會馬上深入地檢討，未來屬於國家的標案，就是類似太陽能發電的設備、儲能的標準規範裡面，我們會訂出來去紅化，這是第一點。第二點，關於固態電池，確實如委員所垂詢的，現在工研院正加速在跟產業合作，我相信在大家的祝福之下，我們希望明後年就能夠開始大量量產。"],["林委員岱樺：這個量產真的是需要你們經濟部的協助，你看這張圖，因為我們的公司小，所以2027年到2028年，也就三、四年後，今年是2024年，你看全球的數據，美國的部分，它量產每年到91 GWH，它的前三家都在80到100 GWH當中，但是我們國內每年只能到20 GWH，我們有技術，只是在資金、人才這個部分要多一些助力，所以在相關的輔導計畫，我拜託部長是不是要加碼一下？"],["郭部長智輝：我們這個都有一些鼓勵的政策。"],["林委員岱樺：技術司司長有點頭，來，您要怎麼輔導？部長，是不是讓技術司來講一下在技術面當中怎麼支持？"],["邱司長求慧：我們在科研的部分，其實事先都已經有先做一些布局了，現在技術上已經有進行一些開發，但是後續的話，就是要進行後續量產的協助，我們政府一定要大力地來予以協助。"],["林委員岱樺：部長、司長，這個在跟時間賽跑，既然現在的無人機，包括電動機的輕量化，這就是在這次俄烏戰爭中很明顯的一個市場局勢的轉變，如果國內有這樣的技術，我還不加碼搶進這個市場，再兩、三年後我們就沒有機會了，部長，你比我更清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會跟國發會來討論，看國發基金可不可以來投，還有台杉基金可不可以投，我們會有一些技術專家來做一些評斷，市場一定有這個機會，謝謝委員垂詢。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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art":616.578,"end":617.759,"text":"所以說這是補漏洞?會不會變成無底洞?"},{"start":636.315,"end":661.49,"text":"報告委員剛才你提到是未來長期的財務規劃我們也有答應立法院我們要在年底前提出一個規劃報告那剛才我也跟您講了大致的方向包含就是說我們會將再生能源准購的部分開始從自己用台電自己的先釋放然後把電力交易市場建立起來因為再生能源現在是我們的產業要出口需要的一個生產要素"},{"start":662.43,"end":688.266,"text":"希望台電買到的不用放在台電手上如果可以轉出去我們就會轉出去本期是希望說不要變成無底洞因為台電的虧損一直在擴大而且好像沒有斷而且你不是給民間漲價那不然就是要補這個漏洞而且是一條龍的貪汙講實在話我們都清清楚楚的老百姓我們走到哪裡尤其基層大家都在罵"},{"start":688.786,"end":715.861,"text":"那個跟委員報告我覺得您也是臺電的眷屬我要說一件事臺電沒有貪汙這件事真的要跟委員報告我跟你講不是你們貪汙就是政府縱容他們綠電光電大家清清楚楚你包括這一次這個臺研也是一樣啊對不對它上面勾結下面整個一條龍大家心知肚明那為什麼會虧損年年這個都有關係啦我相信政府要檢討啦"},{"start":716.601,"end":717.021,"text":"吳秉瑞委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":54,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時17分）主席、與會的各位列席官員、部長、次長、各位同仁，首先是不是請經濟部常次連次長？"],["主席：好，連次長。"],["林委員德福：還有台電的曾董事長。"],["主席：好，曾董事長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["林委員德福：你好！首先我還是要特別恭喜中華隊贏得這次世界棒球12強賽的冠軍，成功把冠軍獎盃從日本帶回臺灣，跟國人共同來分享榮耀。我想台電棒球隊歷年來也培育出很多很厲害的國手，在12強賽中華隊的陳傑憲也曾是台電棒球隊的一員，本席也肯定台電公司數十年來持續替臺灣體壇培育出很多優秀的選手。113年台電棒球隊招募投手2人、野手1人，請問台電的曾董事長，114年是否有規劃擴大招募？有沒有？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我們會擴大招募，除此之外，我們可能也會調整我們的一些規則，現在公司正在研議，那也跟委員報告，我們現在是希望，如果台電的球員有機會進一步到職業隊去比賽，在退役之後，如果他願意回到台電，台電依然會保留他的工作機會，我想這個事情可以讓他們比較放心地願意到世界的舞臺去比賽。"],["林委員德福：對，這也是一個加油、鼓勵跟肯定。次長，2023年美國前六大貨品貿易逆差來源國依序排列為中國大陸、墨西哥、越南、德國、日本、加拿大，我們臺灣是排名第9名，現在美國總統當選人川普已經表示即將簽署行政命令，針對墨西哥和加拿大課徵25%的關稅，並且將對中國大陸商品加徵10%的關稅。本席一直認為臺美21世紀貿易倡議協定後續的談判不樂觀，美國可預期的高關稅將增加臺商外移美國設廠的壓力，臺美避免雙重課稅協定，是否又要重新再談判？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，現在川普要上來，我們有在做一些因應措施，目前臺商是做國際布局，剛才委員有提到在墨西哥那一塊，我們臺商這些電子產業在那邊的那個部分可能會稍微受到一點衝擊，目前我們也有跟廠商說要怎麼在美國跟墨西哥這邊去做布局，那雙邊的投資協定我覺得會視整個情況來做滾動式的調整。"],["林委員德福：那我請問你，未來面對美國關稅的壓力，如何讓企業根留臺灣，避免產業空洞化，包括財政部、經濟部，你們有沒有什麼看法？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，我們有去分析所有的產業，就是重要產業、半導體應該不會受到影響，因為我們不是在終端產品，所以這一部分不太會受到影響。剛才有跟委員報告，電子產品在臺灣國內這邊是不會，但是像剛才委員所談的，因為我們有布局一些在墨西哥那邊，投資量還蠻大的，他們是輸出到美國，這部分我們有請廠商要去做妥適的因應。至於其他機械、工具機這一部分，我們可能還會有一點受益。"],["林委員德福：我認為這個要事前及早地規劃。因為美國總統當選人川普表示就任後會儘快讓俄烏戰爭結束，而其提名的準國家安全顧問Waltz表示，為了讓俄羅斯坐上談判桌，放鬆對俄國的制裁或許是一個誘因，但是目前我國經濟部為防阻我國高科技貨品涉入俄羅斯軍事武器的用途，有管制很多種工具機對俄羅斯的出口。如果2025年美國跟歐洲國家相繼解除對俄羅斯的管制，對此，請問經濟部的政策是否有跟進歐美的作法而有所調整？我想這個要超前部署、搶占先機，你認為要維持管制的措施還是放棄俄羅斯的市場？"],["連次長錦漳：我們會配合整個國際的管制規定。"],["林委員德福：到時候他們要是鬆綁的話，你認為要怎麼做？"],["連次長錦漳：國際的規定如果鬆綁的話，我們會因應國際的鬆綁來做整體的檢討。"],["林委員德福：我認為這是活的啦！"],["連次長錦漳：對、對、對。"],["林委員德福：不要一成不變。"],["連次長錦漳：我們一定要跟國際對比。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔，好。立法院預算中心研究指出，台電發電燃料全數仰賴進口，火力發電成本屢因國際市場影響而短期波動劇烈，火力電源配比差不多將近八成，恐增供電成本控管不易之風險。此外，躉購費率較高的離岸風電陸續完工併聯，推升再生能源購電成本，台電增加民營再生能源的購電量，營運虧損隨之上升，本席希望政府不要瘦了台電而肥這些綠能財團，受害的不只台電，更是全體納稅人的荷包。","曾董事長，本席希望尤其是檢調，要徹查這些綠能的弊案，他們都是一條龍，我相信曾董事長你很清楚，政府要務實調整能源的政策，配合2050年淨零排碳的目標，引進國外最新的核能技術，請問經濟部連次長跟曾董事長，你們有什麼看法？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，第一個就是臺灣的燃料、能源的部分長期仰賴進口，這是很久以來的事情，但是我們現在也希望能夠努力提高我們自己的能源自給率，以臺灣來講，提升再生能源就是提高能源自給率。至於您提到的，就是說再生能源是不是長期要由台電來躉購？這個部裡面也在開始討論，首先，離岸風電已經停止躉購，就是它直接賣給民間，台電現在也在做小額的綠電交易，也希望把台電買到的綠電能夠轉賣給民間需要的業者，這個當然就會減少台電在躉購的比例，這個部分當然某種程度上來講也可以……因為躉購的價格還是高於平均售電的價格。"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["曾董事長文生：這樣就可以減少我們整個成本的結構，這個工作其實台電現在已經陸續在做，最先開始做的是台電自己開發的案場，接下來我們從民間買來的案場，依照再生能源發展條例，民間自己可以轉出去，那台電收購以後要怎麼轉售、電力交易的部分要怎麼進行，其實我們已經在規劃，最重要的是，接下來電業法要修法，也會把電力交易的制度更清楚地規劃起來，到時候要請委員支持。"],["林委員德福：像核電廠，你要是整個透過法令修訂，然後把它展延，董事長、次長，你們有什麼看法？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，站在台電的立場，我們是事業單位，就是法規的規範如何做，我們就依照法規規範來進行。"],["林委員德福：你們就配合。次長，你有什麼看法？"],["連次長錦漳：因為目前法規沒修訂，我們還是依法……"],["林委員德福：對，要是修訂呢？你們會不會配合？"],["連次長錦漳：這個東西本來修訂就是要……第一個，核廢料要能夠處理，而且要有全民共識的情況下……"],["林委員德福：其實過去也那麼長啦，今天就是因為核電的關係，尤其再加上很多綠能都是一條龍，我相信大家清清楚楚，因為電力價格攸關產業競爭力及物價水準，政府已編列給台電增資2,500億元，疫後條例撥補500億，若再加上將在立法院審查2,000億元的撥補經費，預計台電整個增資加撥補的金額累計差不多5,000億，但是電價這三年來已經漲了4次，也推升整個物價像便當、蚵仔麵線、滷肉飯、民眾外食費等等的增加，荷包的縮水，經濟部郭部長跟台電曾董事長，你們也認為這次追加預算通過後，虧損漏洞就可以補起來了嗎？你認為可不可以補起來？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，就台電的理解，這一次的補貼基本上是針對2022、2023這幾年台電已經預先因為沒有漲電價而做的政策負擔……"],["林委員德福：所以這是補漏洞？會不會變成無底洞？"],["曾董事長文生：不是補漏洞。報告委員，剛才你提到的是未來長期的財務規劃，而長期的財務規劃，我們也有答應立法院要在年底前提出一個規劃報告。剛才我也跟你講了大致的方向，包含我們會將再生能源躉購的部分開始從台電自己的先釋放，然後把電力交易市場建立起來，因為再生能源現在是我們的產業要出口需要的一個生產要素，希望台電買到的不用放在台電手上，如果可以轉出去，我們就會轉出去。"],["林委員德福：本席希望不要變成無底洞。"],["曾董事長文生：不會，我們會儘快改善。"],["林委員德福：因為台電的虧損一直在擴大，而且好像沒有斷，你不是給民間漲價，不然就是要補這個漏洞，而且是一條龍的貪污，講實在話，我們都清清楚楚，我們走到哪裡，尤其是基層，老百姓、大家都在罵。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我覺得您也是台電的眷屬，我要說一件事，台電沒有貪污啦！這件事情真的要跟委員報告。"],["林委員德福：我跟你講，不是你們貪污，就是政府縱容他們綠電、光電，大家清清楚楚，包括這次臺鹽也是一樣，對不對？它上面勾結下面，整個一條龍，大家心知肚明！為什麼會虧損連連？這個都有關係啦，我相信政府要檢討。"],["連次長錦漳：委員，這個目前法務部已經在嚴查了。"],["主席：好，謝謝林德福委員，接著請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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"},{"start":158.396,"end":179.093,"text":"對,我等一下會請陸署長再補充,但是先補充一點,好在這次的保險公司是一家優質的保險公司,所以他們請外國的專家都有一起來協處,我們全程都一起在海港局所主持的會議之下都一起在開會,他們的保險也高達10億美金之多,"},{"start":179.693,"end":180.894,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":209.053,"end":212.275,"text":"對,但是因為我看到我就想要問說你有沒有更好的設備在明年的預算但是我看到的就是預算裡面的話就是媒體政策及業務宣傳費經費暴增了三倍所以我一直問你就希望說你就是我們在對海洋的保護的設備你有沒有增加但是我看到的就是那個媒體跟業務宣傳"},{"start":238.115,"end":239.216,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":266.77,"end":267.951,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於海"},{"start":279.571,"end":283.353,"text":"就是高幅的增加,但是在我們在文宣描述的差不多,因為你的計畫差不多,但是你增加了三倍。追加這樣的媒體具體的預算就是看起來就是跟兩年前的計畫是一樣的。"},{"start":298.663,"end":300.264,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":314.356,"end":315.537,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":339.389,"end":341.27,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":365.401,"end":366.222,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":395.581,"end":404.486,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。四、審查114年"},{"start":419.127,"end":420.148,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海洋委員會海"},{"start":446.187,"end":447.989,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海"},{"start":468.789,"end":471.09,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。"},{"start":496.701,"end":497.061,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":524.81,"end":525.03,"text":"海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":540.473,"end":541.593,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海洋委員會海"},{"start":561.46,"end":562.541,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海"},{"start":577.127,"end":593.611,"text":"對我們的要保護海洋的人對我們對這個保護區的設備這些我們需要不是需要你的宣傳費所以希望你要去具體的效力要提出我們才這個預算沒有的話我們可能就是這個預算就會要來去研議好 謝謝委員 謝謝對啊 對不對好 張志倫委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":379,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時18分）主席好，有請海委會管主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。想要請教一下，鈺洲啟航輪在野柳擱淺，海保署成立小組應對，全民都在關心重油抽除進度，還有，目前殘油抽除時機、進度如何？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員的關心，這實在是一個很嚴重的海洋污染的炸彈，跟委員報告，我們到今天為止，總共才只能夠抽出5噸重油，還有兩百多噸的重油在裡面，因為海象的關係，加上我們昨天早上遇到海象又變得不好，所以我們暫時又再關閉油閥，然後看看相關的氣象報告，預計28號我們會做第二次的抽油。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。是否有針對野柳地區敏感生態區域，建立全面的污染防控及補償的預算嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有，我們有24小時在監控著，好在到目前為止都沒有油污的污染出現，當然礁石的部分一定是有受傷的，這個部分未來經過調查比對以後應該要求賠償的部分，我們都有全程的紀錄。"],["麥委員玉珍：在抽油的過程中，海浪真的很大，是一個很大的挑戰，但是海保署是否有計畫未來加強這樣子的應變能力，還有就是如何用更有效的方式？因為你現在說海浪很大，你抽出來的重油還不到一半。"],["管主任委員碧玲：還差很遠。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，還差很遠，所以它就會漂流到很多的地方，但那裡我們是不是有很多的保護區……"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前是沒有溢出。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是附近的保護區也很多，若它漂到那邊的話，則污染的地區就會更擴大。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這裡本身就是地質保護區，我等一下會請陸署長再補充，但是先補充一點，好在這一次的保險公司是一家優質的保險公司，所以他們有請外國的專家一起來協處，大家全程都一起在航港局所主持的會議之下開會，而他們的保險也高達10億美金之多……"],["麥委員玉珍：我知道你都是很認真地在做這一塊。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是除了現有的設備外，你有沒有覺得發生這一次事件後，是否有其他更好的設備？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們國家整個海域的量能在拖帶的部分，確實是有待加強，好在這一年多以來，我們也都一直有跟航港局維持很好的溝通，所以航港局有一個中長期的計畫，行政院會核定，所以拖船的建造已經有機會了。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，對，但是我就想問你在明年的預算有沒有更好的設備？"],["管主任委員碧玲：主要是拖帶的能量。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為我看到預算裡面的媒體政策及業務宣傳費經費暴增了3倍，所以我一直問你對海洋的保護設備有沒有增加？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我看到的是媒體跟業務宣傳費就增加3倍。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這個部分是因為海洋的聲音要我們替它發出來，海洋受到很嚴重的傷害。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們需要的你都沒有增加，你增加的是別人要宣傳你好的東西啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們增加了五十幾億。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以該要去增加的設備要去增加，不是去宣傳你好的東西，但是不好的沒有去改善啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們等一下會跟委員做很好的說明，我們增加了五十幾億。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望是這樣，因為這3倍針對在113年的預算就是995萬，但是在114年就高達三千多萬，就是高幅的增加。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是在文宣描述都差不多，因為你的計畫差不多，但是你增加了3倍，追加媒體的具體預算看起來就跟2年前的計畫是一樣的，寫的計畫沒有差很多，但是費用就增加了3倍，還有我們需要看到有對海的關心，有設備的增加，你沒有增加。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有、有，跟委員報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們看到增加的就是媒體還有業務宣傳費。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們覺得落差太大了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會在審預算的時候再跟委員做非常詳盡的說明，有關污染的防治至少也編列了3.4億元來處理海洋防治污染的費用，像這些我們都有增加，那媒體的宣傳……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望你要優先給基層一些更好的設備。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：對基層的照顧，對海有更好的幫助，你要做宣傳才是更好的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：救生、救難跟武器的部分，我們也都有增加預算，跟委員報告，這個就是最基層……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是媒體跟業務宣傳費就是太誇張了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：可是海洋不會講話。"],["麥委員玉珍：3倍太多了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為海洋不會講話，我們真的需要替它說話，跟委員報告，海委會的媒體預算在整個內閣……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果你說替它說話，還有第二個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：在整個內閣才排第14名。"],["麥委員玉珍：你說要替它們說話，是替海洋說話。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以委員，我都沒有做個人……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是你要去替保護海洋的人說話，有更好的設備才是真正的幫忙。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝委員關心。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為時間的關係，你說這樣的話……，海洋保育繪本出版的計畫去年編列325萬，出版4本繪本，今年又要花280萬繼續執行，花了超過600萬，但是海保署官方網站，你知道有多少人瀏覽嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們如果沒有宣傳這個網站，這個網站就沒有人關注，所以這是雞生蛋、蛋生雞，我們會努力。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，你要宣傳這個網站花了600萬，所以要更多人知道你要做這個。"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，600萬不是宣傳這個網站喔！600萬是在宣傳海洋保育跟海洋污染，海保署具體是用在這個部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是600萬是4本的繪本，瀏覽的人只有95人。"],["管主任委員碧玲：繪本還有出紙本。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你的宣傳效果只有95個人。"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，我們紙本都有被索取。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你覺得宣傳要有多少人看到？我們要的是多少人被照顧、保護這個設備，我們希望的是這樣，還有保護海洋才是我們關注的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員，我們會好好說明。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是你宣傳，就4本繪本花了600萬……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們是希望相輔相成。"],["麥委員玉珍：只有95人在你的網站瀏覽，這樣的規劃……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過我們出的書小朋友都很喜歡。"],["麥委員玉珍：你是要養人去做這個繪本，還是你要養媒體？"],["管主任委員碧玲：繪本……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們看到的跟你說的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：遠見雜誌社替我們把繪本做得很好。"],["麥委員玉珍：為了保護我們的海，也要有設備去保護巡邏海洋的人，這個才是我們要的目的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那個網頁也不是這個網頁，我們等一下會跟委員做好的說明。"],["麥委員玉珍：不能大規模編列3倍的錢，為了宣傳對海洋的保護。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是瀏覽的人那麼少，又花那麼多錢……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是同一個事。"],["麥委員玉珍：需要為了海洋的設備，你又沒有預算。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有、有，委員，我們相輔相成。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以覺得你的預算真的沒有辦法達到民眾要的效果，還有這都是我們的血汗錢，希望主委要好好去編列該花的錢、該用的錢、對我們的大海有幫助、對我們的設備有所齊全，這樣子的話才能真正達到效果。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們媒體宣傳費在內閣排第14名，所以並不是特別地多，而是過去太少了，所以我們國民的海洋意識只有20%……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你覺得媒體宣傳太少了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：還是你的繪本錢太少了，才沒有達到效果？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有說效果很好。"],["麥委員玉珍：你沒有說是看的人太少、受益太少，覺得你的錢編太少了，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員，對不起，沒有說明清楚。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個真的看不下去了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們會說明。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望要有具體的效果，對我們的海洋、對要保護海洋的人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：遠見雜誌做的繪本很感動人的，是給小朋友看的故事。"],["麥委員玉珍：對保護區的設備，這些我們需要，不是需要你的宣傳費。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以這個預算希望你要提出具體的效率。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們審預算時會做很好的說明，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒有的話，我們可能就要來研議。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-12","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","吳琪銘","羅智強","丁學忠","許宇甄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政\n府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及\n所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬\n單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金─ 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務員提出申訴結果他的主管機關處理"},{"start":507.537,"end":536.624,"text":"沒有處理好他們向保訓會提出再申訴結果保訓會在30個案件裡面駁回28件這個數字不會錯啦因為這個是在你們考試院及所屬部會人權保障工作小組24次會議只是我看這個會議記錄我其實有一點感慨因為我不曉得考試院對這個會議重不重視請假的請假找人代理的代理"},{"start":537.88,"end":560.434,"text":"稍後保訓會對於所謂的職場霸凌他們說沒有明確的法律規範定義他們要從個案當中去進行持續性的研究要去進行歸納分析建立未來審議的基準來請教一下秘書長保訓會後來做了什麼樣子的歸納分析"},{"start":566.73,"end":585.966,"text":"這個我不是很了解那個新任的主委您了解嗎跟委員報告齁這個部分我不是很清楚不過呢在我們我先停一下你說你不是很清楚是當初工作交接沒有交接好是不是這個有關於這個駁回的這個部分呢不是啦"},{"start":586.727,"end":604.444,"text":"我說後續的歸納分析結果如何博回的部分32個案子博回28件我當然沒時間在這邊一件一件跟你對嘛是你們在上面說要做歸納分析嘛但我找了半天我找不到歸納分析的結果所以我請教你們"},{"start":604.864,"end":633.993,"text":"公務員報告後面的歸納分析呢我們有在進行但是因為他每個檔案都不一樣不好意思喔是持續在進行還是有做過分析過有在持續進行而且呢我們在我們在做這個會議結論的時候是2023年的6月26號嘛是現在是2024年的11月了吧是那請問這個歸納分析到目前為止有沒有任何的記錄或是任何的報告"},{"start":635.014,"end":641.073,"text":"目前還沒有到目前都還沒有那所謂的歸納分析是怎麼在做的?有開過會嗎?"},{"start":643.103,"end":644.104,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":666.856,"end":693.005,"text":"跟委員報告我們會在這個下個會期之前並同保障以法跟安慰辦法一起如果委員覺得這樣時間太長了我們會在今年底結束的時候所有的部分盡可能把它分析完不是我覺不覺得這個時間太長啦今天我們在這邊詢答的過程全部的公民都可以看啦我們的考試院"},{"start":694.005,"end":719.76,"text":"人權保障工作小組6月26號要求保訓會做歸納分析搞到2024年的11月沒有會議紀錄沒有書面資料只有抽象的在持續的歸納分析搞了一年多什麼都沒有還要再半年結果才會出來是我覺得太慢還是大家都覺得太慢"},{"start":720.62,"end":748.042,"text":"每個公民心裡有一把尺但在這邊我只希望新上任的主委因為我知道你新上任我也沒有要為難你你9月1號才上任嘛前面的人事情沒做好把鍋拐到你身上這不公平嘛但是我要拜託新任的主委加速辦理搞了一年多啊什麼都沒有啊人民會失望啊人民會失望啊"},{"start":749.406,"end":759.682,"text":"這些問題我相信在這個會期處理預算的時候都應該要具體的反映在每一個委員的預算提案上混成這樣太離譜了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時14分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["主席：請劉秘書長。"],["黃委員國昌：然後銓敘部的部長。"],["主席：請施部長。"],["黃委員國昌：保訓會的主委。"],["主席：好，蔡主委。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，時間的關係，不一一問候。我們在2019年修正考試院組織法，大幅縮減考試委員的名額，那個時候我有參與修法，修法意旨是認為考試院必須瘦身，考試院所掌管的業務竟然要19名考試委員，這太誇張了！當然，最後我們把它刪到7到9名，實際上後來的數字大概從2021年以後就穩定了，考試委員從19名降到9名，少了10名考試委員。只不過說，我在追蹤這幾年考試院院本部的預算時，其實有陷入一些迷惘，那個迷惘在於，當初希望考試院能夠瘦身，但實際上考試院院本部的預算看起來不僅沒有減少，如果以今年來比的話，事實上還增加。增加的錢到底在哪裡？是不是真的有需要花這些錢？我想我在預算提案乃至於後面審議的時候會比較清楚表明我的看法，今天珍貴的質詢時間我希望放在我們大家所關心的議題上面。","昨天我針對考試院人事同意權的審查，請教了前考試院副院長，也是院長被提名人周弘憲。我直接請教他贊不贊成在公務人員保障法裡面去處理有關職場霸凌的事情，他在整個詢答過程當中做出了宣示，他說他如果獲得立法院同意任考試院院長，要研議修法，防止職場霸凌。針對周弘憲被提名人所做出的這個宣示，我不曉得在台上的三位是不是都同意？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，我們都同意。"],["黃委員國昌：全部都同意嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["黃委員國昌：但是剛剛秘書長也說你們進入了所謂看守的狀態，這個我尊重，但我一直在思考的是，周弘憲被提名人說他當院長以後要開始研議，因此我昨天詢問過他以後，我就一直在思考：他當上院長以前、之前當副院長的時候到底在做什麼？所以我的第一個問題是，考試院的院會有沒有針對職場霸凌規範不足這件事情做過討論？請教秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，院會裡面應該還沒有，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我想秘書長可能事情多、很忙，我帶秘書長稍微回顧一下。因為昨天詢問完周弘憲被提名人，我越想越不對，這件事情怎麼可能等到我們的勞動部出現這麼誇張的狀況才浮上水面？所以我去找了考試院的院會紀錄。考試院院會秘書長有參與，請你看一下，2021年10月14日，有考試委員問銓敘部對於職場霸凌有沒有相關的因應措施或管理制度。請問銓敘部接下來的補充報告內容是什麼？這個「陳委員錦生」應該是考試委員吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["黃委員國昌：他問有沒有相關的因應措施或管理制度，請銓敘部補充報告。但是我後來查了考試院的院會紀錄，有委員提出來要銓敘部補充報告，可是補充報告在哪裡？我找不到！顯然這件事情有浮上水面、大家要討論，也要求銓敘部要注意，那請問補充報告在哪裡？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我跟委員報告，我看陳委員的發言，應該當時是在院會的報告案裡面，前周部長在報告跟懲戒、懲處制度相關的……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道。這個院會紀錄我看過了，你沒有必要複述，現在我的問題是，請問補充報告在哪裡？"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為後來在銓敘部提出的考績法修正草案裡面也有把這個概念納入，只是這個草案因為當時……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，所以你所說的相關因應措施或管理制度指的就是考績法嗎？是嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：不只，但是因為銓敘部的部分是跟考績法有關，這個案子當時在院會應該是報告案，所以有委員的發言紀錄。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請你回去查事後銓敘部所提出來的補充報告是什麼，有，就書面回復給我。"],["劉秘書長建忻：好。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，就回答「沒有」兩個字就好。不是只有2021年，到2023年考試院院會再度處理了有關職場霸凌的部分，要求保訓會要強化預防措施，請問事後保訓會強化了什麼預防措施？"],["劉秘書長建忻：在保訓會這邊，安衛辦法的部分是有一直在研修。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道，研修了10年，我昨天已經問過周弘憲了，對於研修10年的這件事情，他很遺憾也覺得非常的抱歉，但我的問題很簡單，2023年考試院院會又問了這件事情，第二次浮上院會的檯面，要求保訓會要去針對職場霸凌強化預防措施，請問強化的預防措施是什麼？"],["劉秘書長建忻：安衛辦法在今年保訓會有送到院裡面，我跟委員……"],["黃委員國昌：今年8月安衛辦法有針對職場霸凌強化預防措施嗎？有嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個部分的確做得並沒有很明確，所以如昨天委員的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個就是我講的，考試院過去這幾年可能跟秘書長記憶不太一樣，在考試院院會的確針對這件事情兩次要求要處理，一次是請銓敘部，一次是請保訓會，我今天請部長跟保訓會的主委上來，不是要責怪你們，因為我知道當時你們都還沒有就任現在的職務，但是如果現在是在所謂的看守期間的話，以前該做而沒有做的事情，我們的帳就要算清楚，讓全體的國人知道，考試院過去不是沒有研議、討論過這件事，但問題是什麼？問題是即使提到了考試院院會討論，後續也毫無作為，就四個字「毫無作為」，等到周弘憲要再度被提名當考試院院長的時候才在院會宣示說他要修法、他要強化，幾年的時間過去了，而這些院會秘書長您都有參與。","還不只這樣，2023年考試院人權保障工作小組針對有關職場霸凌的事情，對於公務員提出的申訴，他的主管機關沒有處理好，他們向保訓會提出再申訴，結果保訓會在30個案件裡面駁回28件，這個數字不會錯啦！因為這個是在你們考試院及所屬部會人權保障工作小組第24次會議的內容，只是我看了這個會議紀錄，其實有一點感慨，因為我不曉得考試院對這個會議重不重視，請假的請假，找人代理的代理，搞得「離離落落」。接下來保訓會對於所謂的職場霸凌，他們說沒有明確的法律規範定義，要從個案當中去進行持續性的研究，要去進行歸納分析，建立未來審議的基準。來，請教一下秘書長，保訓會後來做了什麼樣子的歸納分析？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個我不是很了解，不過……"],["黃委員國昌：新任的主委，您了解嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這個部分我不是很清楚，不過在我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，你說你不是很清楚，是當初工作交接沒有交接好，是不是？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有關駁回的這個部分……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，我說後續的歸納分析結果如何，駁回的部分，32個案子駁回28件，我當然沒時間在這邊一件一件跟你對嘛。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在上面說要做歸納分析，但我找了半天，找不到歸納分析的結果，所以我請教你們。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，後面的歸納分析我們有在進行，但是因為它每個態樣都不一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，不好意思，是持續在進行，還是有做過、分析過？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有在持續進行，而且我們在這一個……"],["黃委員國昌：你們在做這個會議結論的時候是2023年6月26號嘛。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在是2024年的11月了吧？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：請問這個歸納分析到目前為止有沒有任何的紀錄或是任何的報告？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：到目前都還沒有，那所謂的歸納分析是怎麼做的？有開過會嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：也沒有書面？也沒有紀錄？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，但是我們委員之間有在討論。"],["黃委員國昌：那就是抽象地持續在進行？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有在討論。"],["黃委員國昌：誰在討論？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：委員，我們也有委外。"],["黃委員國昌：但是沒有任何的會議紀錄？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：目前還……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有任何的文件，搞了一年多？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為那個態樣太多了，而且案件數目前到保訓會的已經有32件。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們覺得你們的持續分析還要分析多久，才會有個結果？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，我們會在下個會期之前併同保障法，跟安衛辦法一起……"],["黃委員國昌：下個會期之前，也就是說，你還要再過半年以後，才會有個歸納分析的結果？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：如果委員覺得這樣時間太長了，我們會在今年底結束的時候，盡可能把所有的部分分析完。"],["黃委員國昌：不是我覺不覺得這個時間太長，今天我們在這邊詢答的過程，全部的公民都可以看，我們的考試院人權保障工作小組6月26號要求保訓會做歸納分析，搞到2024年的11月，沒有會議紀錄，沒有書面資料，只有抽象的、再持續的歸納分析，搞了一年多，什麼都沒有，還要再半年結果才會出來，是我覺得太慢，還是大家都覺得太慢？每個公民心裡有一把尺，但在這邊，我只希望新上任的主委加速辦理，因為我知道你新上任，我也沒有要為難你。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：你9月1號才上任嘛。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。"],["黃委員國昌：前面的人事情沒做好，把鍋拐到你身上，這不公平嘛，但是我要拜託現任的主委加速辦理。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：搞了一年多，什麼都沒有，人民會失望！這些問題我相信在這個會期處理預算的時候，都應該要具體的反映在每個委員的預算提案上，混成這樣，太離譜了啦！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員，謝謝秘書長、兩位部長和主委。","好，接下來請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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請郭部長"},{"start":18.703,"end":36.129,"text":"部長 最近高雄持續有好消息 台積電的P1廠已經提早進機 顯示出這個需求確實相當大接下來P2到P5也陸續來做 部長我想對這事情有什麼看法 應該樂觀其成"},{"start":38.09,"end":57.641,"text":"是的,因為整個2奈米的市場需求非常強烈。我相信全球大概只有台積電是非常有把握來商業運轉的。所以我們也祝福台積電能夠快一點把市場填補,讓市場的需求能夠滿足。"},{"start":61.563,"end":76.557,"text":"這看來整個期程都會關閉萬場就已經提早了接下來這幾個場應該都有機會再往前嘛對不對 時程上我們現在也都有在討論也就是說希望能夠滿足這個他們的各項的需求"},{"start":78.031,"end":94.224,"text":"半導體產業鏈現在慢慢也在高雄整個建立起來然後也希望部長能夠全力來支持特別是電力大家都知道高雄的電是相當的豐沛的現在蓋新的燃氣電廠我們希望部長繼續支持半導體產業鏈在高雄來建立起來好嗎"},{"start":94.85,"end":122.088,"text":"是謝謝委員的垂詢我想這個台積電它所需要的電力這個是我們台電公司全力以赴的一個範疇我們相信這個我們需要這個台積電的發展那我們更需要台電的這個支持所以台電所有的這個供電可能都會由這個各地方政府來幫助協助那也希望各位委員能夠繼續的協助我們台電的這個發展"},{"start":123.169,"end":151.305,"text":"我們台電穩定的供電給這個台積電,台積電才有辦法復路全程。不過我只是要跟部長講,高雄現在是供電最充沛的縣市是吧?這個部分我可能要台電是不是來...好來講一下吧,高雄現在是不是整個供電最充沛的縣市?是,因為高雄有台電的三座電廠。三座大電廠嗎?而且我們現在還在新,除了三座電廠有40%往中往北送以後,我們還在新增燃氣電廠是吧?"},{"start":153.187,"end":169.903,"text":"對 未來 現在跟未來都會有部分的基礎會增加全臺灣所有的縣市23個縣市裡面高雄是最發電最充沛的縣市嗎對嗎是即使現在未來看來也是啦是謝謝高雄縣市政府的謝謝部長再請一下部長"},{"start":171.244,"end":195.85,"text":"高雄是整個最充沛縣市所以我希望用電量需要的不管是從半導體產業到AI都是用電相當強的我希望都應該不要只讓高雄來幫忙發電高雄犧牲了環境犧牲了空氣來幫忙發電結果在產業的成果上卻得不到支持我們希望半導體產業鏈跟AI產業鏈要特別重視高雄需求是謝謝委員吹詢回朝這個方向努力吧我們回朝這個方向好謝謝部長"},{"start":196.75,"end":219.618,"text":"接下來我來看一下AI部長也提到期盼它成為下一個護國神山因為除了半導體以外AI幾乎現在全世界非常的夯大家非常看好它的發展部長也非常看好它的發展我們看到其實這個佈局很早了高雄其實在9年前我都記得那時候我剛當選立委的時候我們就在開亞洲西灣區的"},{"start":222.639,"end":237.292,"text":"產業發展會議其中五大重點第一個重點就是AI產業就是第一個重點五個未來高雄、亞洲西灣區可以發展的重鎮就是AI一開始在包括沈榮慶部長、外民部部長都來參加過陳其邁市長還沒當選前都來參加過當時在一開始討論的時候還"},{"start":241.916,"end":243.637,"text":"部長,持續的支持跟加碼投資AI在亞灣的建設好嗎?"},{"start":261.359,"end":281.87,"text":"我們認為這個委員會真的是有先見之明那能夠把高雄創造成一個AI這個比較適合投資的一個都市那我們看得出來其實經濟部在從過去幾任的這個部長的這個努力之下我們有看到目前的一些成果包括從國際的幾個大廠都選擇在回答"},{"start":287.212,"end":287.312,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":304.324,"end":304.825,"text":"花若盛開蝴蝶自來"},{"start":322.688,"end":323.108,"text":"賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員"},{"start":338.479,"end":360.051,"text":"好 謝謝 再要請教一下 軍公教明年調薪但是企業我們看一下只有大概只有11%的企業調薪我也希望部長我們想一些方法來鼓勵企業能夠調薪好不好 有獲利 然後來協助企業調薪我們現在大概有在討論 行政院都有在討論這個部分也就是說我們先從這個上市櫃公司來跟他們溝通"},{"start":361.152,"end":385.435,"text":"也就是說他們在這個上市櫃公司當有分紅的時候希望能夠把員工的分紅的比率往上調那第二個準備上市櫃公司的這些公司呢也有一些基本的條款來幫助員工比如說剛開始你要上市的公司或上櫃公司他基本的薪資必須要4萬起薪我們也希望到2027年的時候"},{"start":387.136,"end":405.991,"text":"能夠讓這個上市櫃公司的基本薪資能夠拉到5萬這個是一個目標到現在都繼續在討論如何協助台灣的公司能夠更高的獲利當他獲利更高的時候必須要考慮到員工的分紅這個是我們一直在努力的"},{"start":406.491,"end":428.462,"text":"部長這很重要啦,就是我們把經濟面弄好,把整個產業面弄好,然後企業好的獲利之後也能夠再調新的部分也能夠提升形勢我們行政院院長一直在指示,也就是說部長這個部分是不是一個月的時間給我一份報告好不好,把你們整個規劃的不管是涉及到法律或政策面的給我一份報告,我希望看到"},{"start":429.102,"end":430.803,"text":"我們讓有賺錢的公司都可以大幅的為他的員工增加他的薪酬"},{"start":454.633,"end":481.034,"text":"國公營的事業能不能加快因為每次的國公營幾乎拖了差半年才能夠來調薪明年軍工就要調3%國公營應該也會調3%吧是的那什麼時候可以定案我們現在上一次總統到台電去視察的時候我們大概也有跟台電台水的同仁都有分享也就是說國營的事業明年的起薪我們希望是從4萬開始"},{"start":482.735,"end":503.013,"text":"來做我們他的起薪,現在目前大概都在3萬出頭嘛,那我們希望透過技術加急提升他的技術能力,然後調薪也要動,比照軍公教調薪好不好,這個部長加快速度啦好不好,不要落差太大,像今年差了快半年才調完,這個差太久了好不好。"},{"start":503.573,"end":519.743,"text":"最後一個請教一下大家一直在上個禮拜有院會有通過一個針對於財產申報的部分不只針對你現在連部會首長都擴級了要求要來做相關的一個調查我們看他調查的報告是怎麼寫的他寫說這個"},{"start":523.386,"end":541.446,"text":"行政院的部分首長疑似規避公職人員財產申報法第7條的規定強制信託的義務涉及不當財產移轉及規避贈與稅等逃漏稅的事宜所以要成立這個調查小委員會我先問部長,部長你有涉及到這個部分違法的問題嗎?"},{"start":542.327,"end":542.908,"text":"會不會影響你來自於民間企業?"},{"start":567.647,"end":596.052,"text":"我當然已經進來了我當然沒有問題其他人可能都不敢進來會不會影響就你的感覺如果這樣會不會影響到民間企業未來如果我們要邀請更多優秀人才來到像你的身價你看財產生報已經出來了這個3億以上嘛對啊你大可不一定要進到來當這個部會首長你也一樣可以過很好的生活了嘛但是有很多人一樣比如說甚至跟早之前傳出童子賢可能要來"},{"start":597.572,"end":625.602,"text":"這個來擔任院長那這樣的角度如果這樣的東西持續的發生會不會影響到企業界優秀的領導人所謂的財產申報這個應該是如果有問題的話應該是監察院來查嘛對我的意思是說有問題監察院會處理有問題檢調也會處理但是由政治力去對於政務官用這樣的方式會不會讓就像上半年度我們談的國會擴權法一樣用這樣的方式去處理的時候會不會對於優秀的民間人才"},{"start":626.703,"end":644.162,"text":"政府部門進來成為政務官會不會有壓力?部長你認為民間的企業會不會有壓力?我們如果都是誠實報告的人應該是沒有壓力的啊?但是這個查應該不是誠實的申報不會有壓力嗎?但是查本身會不會對你產生壓力?心情不會很好"},{"start":646.424,"end":664.015,"text":"我們希望吸引更多優秀人才來到政府部門為國家服務啦那如果太多這種有問題查絕對是沒問題但是不要具有針對性太有針對性我覺得會影響到優秀人才為國家服務的一個意願部長加油啦謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":99,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時11分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長早。部長，最近高雄持續有好消息，台積電高雄P1廠已經提早進機，顯示出這個需求其實相當大，接下來P2到P5也陸續推進，部長對這個事情有什麼看法？應該樂觀其成啦？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，因為整個2奈米的市場需求非常強烈，我相信全球大概現在只有台積電是非常有把握來商業運轉的，所以我們也祝福台積電能夠快一點把這個市場填補，讓這個市場的需求能夠滿足。"],["賴委員瑞隆：看來整個期程都會有進展，光P1廠就已經提早了，接下來這幾個廠在時程上應該都有機會再往前嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在也都有在討論，也就是說，希望能夠滿足他們的各項需求。"],["賴委員瑞隆：半導體產業鏈現在慢慢也在高雄整個建立起來了，也希望部長能夠全力來支持，特別是電力，大家都知道高雄的電是相當的豐沛，現在也蓋新的燃氣電廠，我們也希望部長繼續支持半導體產業鏈在高雄建立起來，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的垂詢，我想台積電所需要的電力是我們台電公司全力以赴的範疇，我們相信我們需要台積電的發展，我們更需要台電的支持，所以台電所有的供電可能都會由各地方政府來幫助、協助，也希望各位委員能夠繼續的協助我們台電的發展，我們台電穩定供電給台積電，台積電才有辦法服務全球客戶。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，我只是要跟部長講，高雄現在是供電最充沛的縣市，是吧？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分可能要台電來說明。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，來講一下，高雄現在是不是整個供電最充沛的縣市？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，因為高雄有台電的三座電廠……"],["賴委員瑞隆：三座大電廠嘛，而且我們除了三座電廠有40%的電力往中、往北送，我們還在新增燃氣電廠，是吧？"],["王總經理耀庭：對，現在跟未來有部分的機組都會增加。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以全臺灣所有23個縣市裡面，高雄是發電最充沛的縣市，對嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：即使現在是，未來看來也是啦。"],["王總經理耀庭：是，謝謝高雄市政府的協助。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，高雄是電力最充沛的縣市，對於用電量有需求的部分，從半導體產業到AI都是用電相當強的，我希望不要只讓高雄來幫忙發電，高雄犧牲了環境、犧牲了空氣來幫忙發電，結果在產業的成果上卻得不到支持，我們希望半導體產業鏈跟AI產業鏈要特別重視高雄的需求，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員垂詢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：會朝這個方向努力吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會朝這個方向來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長。","接下來，我們來看一下，對於AI的部分，部長也提到期盼它成為下一個護國神山，因為除了半導體以外，AI現在在全世界是非常的夯，大家非常看好它的發展，部長也非常看好它的發展。我們看到這方面的布局很早啦，高雄其實在9年前，我記得那時候我剛當選立委，我們就在開亞洲新灣區的產業發展會議，其中五大重點，第一個重點就是AI產業，五個未來高雄亞洲新灣區可以發展的重鎮，第一個重點就是AI。一開始包括沈榮津部長、王美花部長都來參加過，陳其邁市長還沒當選前都來參加過，當時在一開始討論的時候還不是那麼清晰，但現在已經越來越清晰，然後爭取到106億5G AIoT的經費，當然後來的「亞灣2.0─智慧科技創新園區推動方案」經費增加到170億。部長，持續的支持跟加碼投資亞灣在AI的建設，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為委員真的是有先見之明，能夠把高雄創造成一個比較適合AI投資的都市。我們看得出來，其實在經濟部過去幾任部長的努力之下，目前我們有看到一些成果，包括從國際的幾個大廠都選擇在……"],["賴委員瑞隆：輝達、AMD都來到了高雄。"],["郭部長智輝：輝達還有AMD都選在高雄落腳，我想這就是我們一直在討論的，也就是當你的環境越充足，環境越適合廠商進駐，那麼廠商自然而然就會進去……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你常說的「花若盛開蝴蝶自來」。"],["郭部長智輝：花若盛開蝴蝶自來，我想這個就讓大家能夠很清楚，每一個縣市，我們都跟地方政府全力配合，但是我們希望地方政府……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，除了「花若盛開蝴蝶自來」以外，也要更多政府的鼓勵跟支持，我也希望未來部長持續支持高雄亞灣AI的發展。好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請持續支持跟鼓勵，讓高雄的亞灣有機會成為一個非常……已經有很好的基礎，我們希望持續的讓它更加壯大，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。再來請教一下，軍公教明年調薪，但是我們看一下企業，大概只有11%的企業調薪，我也希望部長，我們想一些方法來鼓勵企業也能夠調薪，好不好？有獲利，然後來協助企業調薪。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在大概有在討論，行政院都有在討論這個部分，我們先跟上市櫃公司來溝通，也就是說當上市櫃公司有分紅的時候，希望能夠把員工分紅的比率往上調。第二個，針對準備上市櫃的這些公司，也有一些基本的條款來幫助員工，譬如說剛開始要上市或者要上櫃的公司，員工的基本薪資必須要4萬起薪，我們也希望到2027年的時候，能夠讓上市櫃公司的基本薪資拉到5萬。這是一個目標，但現在就繼續在討論，如何協助臺灣的公司能夠有更高的獲利，當它獲利更高的時候，必須要考慮到員工的分紅，這是我們一直在努力的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這很重要，就是我們把經濟面弄好，把整個產業面弄好，然後企業有好的獲利之後，在調薪的部分也能夠提振薪資。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。我們行政院院長一直在指示，也就是說……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這個部分是不是一個月的時間給我一份報告，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：把你們整個規劃，不管是涉及到法令或政策面的，給我一份報告。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望看到當我們給企業更多鼓勵跟支持他們獲利的時候，企業也同時給員工調薪，你看這兩年，公務員今年調薪4%，明年要調3%，企業如果只有11%願意調薪，這個真的太可惜了，應該帶動整個企業大家都調薪。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們讓有賺錢的公司都可以大幅的為它的員工增加薪酬。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，國公營事業的調薪能不能加快，因為每次國公營事業幾乎都要拖差不多半年才能夠調薪，明年軍公教調薪3%，國公營事業應該也會調3%吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，那什麼時候可以定案？"],["郭部長智輝：上一次總統到台電去視察的時候，我們大概也都有跟台電、台水的同仁分享，也就是國營事業明年的起薪，我們希望是從4萬開始來作為員工的起薪，現在目前大概都在三萬出頭，我們希望透過技術加給提升他的技術能力……"],["賴委員瑞隆：起薪增加，然後調薪也要動。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：比照軍公教調薪，好不好？這個部分，部長，加快速度，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要有落差，像今年差了快半年才調完，差太久了，好不好？最後一個請教一下，上個禮拜院會針對財產申報的部分通過要成立一個調查委員會，不只針對你，現在連部會首長都擴及了，要求做相關的調查。我們看它的提案文字是怎麼寫的，它寫說「政院部分首長疑似規避公職人員財產申報法第七條規定之強制信託義務，涉及不當財產移轉及規避贈與稅等逃漏稅情事」，所以要成立調查委員會。我先問部長，部長，你有涉及這部分違法的問題嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：完全沒有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：完全沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，完全沒有。第二個我要問的是，部長，那你認為用這樣的方式，全面的來調查所有的部會首長，用這樣的方式來調查，會不會影響到優秀人才出任政務官的意願？"],["郭部長智輝：這個留給社會公評好了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，會不會影響？你來自於民間企業嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我已經進來了，我當然沒有問題，其他的人可能就不敢進來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其他的也要面對的，會不會受影響？就你的感覺，如果這樣會不會影響到未來，如果我們要邀攬更多民間企業的優秀人才入閣，像你的身價，財產申報已經出來了，有3億以上嘛，對啊，你大可不一定要進到內閣來當部會首長，你也一樣可以過很好的生活了嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是也有很多人一樣，比如說甚至更早之前傳出童子賢可能要來擔任院長，就這樣的角度，如果這樣的東西持續的發生，會不會影響企業界優秀的領導人……"],["郭部長智輝：不過所謂的財產申報如果有問題的話，這個應該是監察院來查嘛。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。我的意思是說，有問題監察院會處理，有問題檢調也會處理，但是由政治力去對於政務官用這樣的方式，就像上半年度我們談的國會擴權法案一樣，用這樣的方式去處理的時候，會不會對於優秀的民間人才進入政府部門成為政務官會有壓力，部長，你認為對於民間企業人士會不會有壓力？"],["郭部長智輝：如果都是誠實報告的人應該是沒有壓力，但是這個查應該不是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：誠實的申報不會有壓力嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是查的本身會不會對你產生壓力？"],["郭部長智輝：心情不會很好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：心情不會很好？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望所有的人還是要思考，我們希望吸引更多優秀的人才來政府部門為國家服務，如果太多這種，有問題去查，絕對沒問題，但是不要具有針對性，太有針對性，我覺得會影響到優秀人才為國家服務的意願。部長加油啦！"],["郭部長智輝：好。謝謝。"],["主席：請林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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那尤其現在很多企業在數位的轉型上 有碰到這個六大的瓶頸的困難的問題那部長你在這邊 你了解這個六大問題之後 你要怎麼樣去解決這些問題呢"},{"start":78.063,"end":78.524,"text":"我們大概會透過兩個方法 第一個就是說幫助這些產業先數位化"},{"start":95.828,"end":97.489,"text":"蘇維化與資料儲存、資訊導入AI化、智慧化"},{"start":111.218,"end":137.587,"text":"那麼他可以提供比較好的資訊這個提供比較好的資訊會讓業者他比較容易做對的決策那我們幫助這些中小企業第一個就是讓他高質化選做對的事情然後第二個我們幫他降低成本然後讓他把事情做對這個大概是我們現在中小企業署創新署在努力的這個部分"},{"start":140.028,"end":159.546,"text":"太多了所以我就針對製造業來跟部長來提醒尤其在製造業來講的話目前有57%的業者他們是第一階段只有數位化那第二階段是數位優化有5.2%那第三階段的話是數位的轉型有30.8%"},{"start":162.228,"end":190.546,"text":"有一部分7%的完全沒有數位化那你知道這個原因在哪裡嗎像成本問題不願意投資還是看不到它的成效原因就是非常的多啦每一個產業因為這個產業有的規模太小有的它資金太少有的它不願意跟產業鏈配合我想我們會針對這一些盤點出來的問題然後下去把它集中以後下去解決這個問題"},{"start":192.047,"end":216.204,"text":"經濟部已經把抓出這個六大問題了那尤其是製造業是很重要的中小企業我們希望部長在這邊瞭解問題去對他們各別的不同的各產業他們的不同跟他們的落差你知道相應應的一個對策要做出來是我們會從供應鏈的這樣的一個垂直的關係然後來輔導這一些比較弱的這些廠商"},{"start":217.09,"end":244.718,"text":"臺灣﹚"},{"start":244.718,"end":245.599,"text":"請問那我們現在也有做出一個目標在2028年的話我們在IC設計的這個能量方面"},{"start":274.743,"end":275.826,"text":"我們能成長多少?"},{"start":284.349,"end":303.86,"text":"報告委員 我們有推動金創計畫那我們要來推動國內IC設計去導入先進或國際高度信任的優勢特殊晶片我們預估IC設計產業採用先進製程的晶片的比率會從112年的39%提升到113年的43%113年43% 現在不是20年2028年能夠提升到多少"},{"start":314.375,"end":340.191,"text":"我們期待能夠到50%提升到50%因為我們跟美國的差距是多少你知道嗎我們現在是20%美國將近有60%差了3倍你現在提高了50%我也樂觀其成那就加油啦好不好那因為現在人才在這資訊方面的人才是有斷層的人才不足而且在整個產業上也有缺工的情形部長都知道吧"},{"start":341.031,"end":353.924,"text":"但是現在我們看到很多的資訊在資訊通訊科技學門裡面畢業沒有投入在這個就業的方面非常的多在2019年裡面19.63%到現在2023年到36.58%部長知道什麼原因嗎為什麼畢業沒有投入這個職場也許不願意到工廠去工作"},{"start":365.723,"end":387.23,"text":"所以這個就是很多的因素啦也許可能就是有當兵的問題各方面但是我們希望說能夠在缺工那個人才我們怎麼樣去培訓人才怎麼樣去徵才這是很重要的這部長在這方面的因應也要找出一個對策好不好那尤其是在國外的留學生裡面將近有2萬人在台灣也是讀這個資訊通訊這個科系的但是留到台灣的話也不到一半"},{"start":394.232,"end":400.753,"text":"這部分我們之前在院會裡面有討論過那我們會希望過去這個兩萬多人的這個僑外生將來可以有百分之七十八十留在台灣透過一些這個方法我們現在勞動部就是有在設計這樣子讓他們留下來的這個方案"},{"start":424.687,"end":432.638,"text":"國發會、國發會跟勞動部他們在討論你們的目標呢?我們的目標,我們自己這個他們現在不留下來的原因有知道嗎?"},{"start":433.831,"end":433.931,"text":"經濟部自己本身"},{"start":460.192,"end":465.465,"text":"正跟教育部在協商我們經濟部會每一年訓練兩萬五千位"},{"start":468.087,"end":493.939,"text":"橋外生跟本土的這個學生專業的就是比較科技業的你們訓練好能夠就業嗎?就業2萬5千的就業二加4計畫就在執行這件事情也就是說兩年他來讀書由國家提供這個學費跟雜費那經濟部提供生活費所以他們畢業就一定要投入一定要在這個工作在工作不然的話他就要罰這個就是要還那個錢"},{"start":494.779,"end":494.799,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":579,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時44分）謝謝主席，部長要不要先喝口水？好，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。剛剛召委是說，你可以先休息喝口水。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，臺灣中小企業的彈性跟創新的能量是維繫我國經濟發展跟社會安定非常重要的，尤其是很多中小企業也引領著產業的隱形冠軍，所以我們在2023年中小企業白皮書裡面都有提到，尤其是全體企業的中小企業部分占了98%，如果我們的政府還是把眼光放在扶植核心的產業，長期忽視了中小企業的發展，對整個就業市場會造成很不健康的影響，部長，你認同嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我認同委員這樣的垂詢。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，尤其現在很多企業在數位的轉型上碰到這六大瓶頸的困難，部長，你了解這六大問題之後，要怎麼樣去解決這些問題呢？因為每個企業的各種型態非常地不同，差異也非常大，你要因應各個產業的需求而去扶植他們，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們大概會透過兩個方法，第一個就是幫助這些產業先數位化，因為數位化以後……"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其是製造業跟服務業。"],["郭部長智輝：都一樣，不管是製造業或者服務業，都會透過數位化以後把資料儲存，資料儲存以後把它化成資訊，然後再導入AI化，就是讓它智慧化，它可以提供比較好的資訊，讓業者比較容易做對的決策。我們幫助這些中小企業，第一個就是讓它高值化、選對的事情來做；第二個，我們幫它降低成本，讓它把事情做對。這個大概是現在我們中小及新創企業署在努力的部分，因為這個太多了……"],["呂委員玉玲：就是太多了，所以我針對製造業來跟部長提醒，尤其在製造業來講的話，目前有57%的業者是第一階段只有數位化，第二階段數位優化的只有5.2%，第三階段數位轉型的有30.8%，7%則是完全沒有數位化，你知道這個原因在哪裡嗎？是因為成本問題，所以不願意投資，還是看不到它的成效？"],["郭部長智輝：原因非常多，因為有的產業是規模太小，有的是資金太少，有的是不願意跟產業鏈配合，我想我們會針對這些盤點出來的問題把它集中以後下去解決。"],["呂委員玉玲：其實經濟部已經抓出這六大問題了，尤其製造業是很重要的中小企業，我們希望部長要了解問題，針對個別產業的不同跟落差，你們相因應的對策要做出來。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會從供應鏈的垂直關係來輔導這些比較弱的廠商，因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：讓業者也願意投資，是不是？投資這些設備進來，才有辦法數位化。"],["郭部長智輝：我們也有一些優惠的貸款可以來協助他們做轉型。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。接下來本席想請教的是，我們半導體產業具有強大的競爭力，在整個產業裡面又可分為IC設計、晶圓代工，還有封測測試這三大方面，尤其臺灣在晶圓代工跟封測測試的部分是世界第一，我們的IC設計占全球21.3%，僅次於美國，尤其在這整個計畫裡面，我們看到2023年到2024年成長到20.6%。請問，我們現在也有做出一個目標，在2028年我們IC設計能量方面能夠成長多少？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分是不是請他們跟您回答？"],["呂委員玉玲：好，請回答。"],["陳副署長佩利：報告委員，我們有推動晶創計畫，我們要推動國內IC設計導入先進或國際高度信任的優勢特殊晶片，預估IC設計產業採用先進製程的晶片比率，會從112年的39%提升到113年的43%。"],["呂委員玉玲：113年43%，現在不是二十點……"],["陳副署長佩利：採用先進製程……"],["呂委員玉玲：2028年能夠提升到多少？"],["陳副署長佩利：我們期待能夠到50%。"],["呂委員玉玲：提升到50%？"],["陳副署長佩利：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們跟美國的差距是多少，你知道嗎？我們現在是20%，美國將近有60%，差了3倍，你現在提高到50%，我也樂觀其成，那就加油了，好不好？現在資訊方面的人才是有斷層的，人才不足，而且在整個產業上也有缺工的情形，部長都知道吧？"],["郭部長智輝：對，是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是現在我們看到在「資訊通訊科技學門」裡面，畢業後沒有投入就業的非常地多，2019年有19.63%，2023年到36.58%，部長知道什麼原因嗎？為什麼畢業後沒有投入這個職場？"],["郭部長智輝：他也許不願意到工廠去工作。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以有很多的因素，也許可能就是有當兵的問題、各方面，但是在缺工、缺人才的情況下，我們怎麼樣去培訓人才、怎麼樣去徵才是很重要的，部長在這方面的因應也要找出一個對策，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其外籍學生裡面將近有兩萬人在臺灣就讀資訊通訊相關科系，但是留在臺灣的不到一半，47%而已，他們在臺灣的生活上或者就業上，我們要怎麼去輔導他們呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們之前在院會裡面有討論過，我們會希望過去這兩萬多人的僑外生將來可以有百分之七十、八十留在臺灣，透過一些方法……"],["呂委員玉玲：什麼方法？"],["郭部長智輝：現在勞動部有在設計讓他們留下來的方案。"],["呂委員玉玲：勞動部設計而已，你這邊呢？"],["郭部長智輝：國發會跟勞動部他們在討論。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們的目標呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的目標，我們自己……"],["呂委員玉玲：他們現在不留下來的原因，你們知道嗎？生活上、工作上？"],["郭部長智輝：他們都知道。"],["呂委員玉玲：還是產學合作上面的問題，或者是沒有辦法學以致用？這是很重要的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：產學如果有落差，不能學以致用的話，他們就不可能投入職場，或者對職場根本不了解，沒辦法去就業，這也都是問題，所以在我們學門裡面的話……"],["郭部長智輝：現在經濟部自己本身跟教育部在協商，我們經濟部會每一年訓練2萬5,000位僑外生跟本土的學生，就是專業的、比較科技業的。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們訓練好，能夠就業嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：就業。"],["呂委員玉玲：2萬5,000人都能就業？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的二加四計畫就在執行這件事情，也就是說，兩年他來讀書，由國家提供學費跟雜費，經濟部提供生活費，他們必須……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以他們畢業後就一定要投入？"],["郭部長智輝：一定要工作，不然的話，他就要還那個錢。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們提醒部長，現在怕的是他們學了這個科系以後有學用落差，沒有辦法學以致用，我們訓練了這麼多人，卻沒有投入職場，是非常可惜的，所以在這方面我們一定要有好的因應措施，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員支持。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂委員，謝謝部長。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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一次的過程，我們內部會做個檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。也把檢討的結果、精準的方案給本席，多久時間會出來？"],["張副局長元斌：我們大概三天。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：三天，好！也就是禮拜五，希望能夠給國人看到我們國安的莊嚴，也讓我們的臺灣英雄、世界第一是真正的榮耀！","接下來，本席要請教，有關中國強摘活人器官的紀錄片「國有器官」今年10月份在臺灣上映了，不管是在放映的戲院，還有政府部門，陸續都接受到恐嚇的訊息，而且統計顯性的有28件，南部也有，在這樣一個情況之下，刑事局也針對恐嚇電郵來源的IP位置，研判是由VPN的虛擬私人網路跳板程式在國外各地寄送，所幸我們國內目前沒有發生任何事項。請問，在這樣的情況之下，國安局有掌控這個訊息嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：我們有掌控，有密切跟警政署及相關單位聯繫，這個案情我們一直有掌控。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：發布的位址是正確的嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：位址已經科學鑑識出來，所以它跳板是從紀錄上顯示的，因為它跨了很多國家，所以這個部分我們還要透過國際合作協助協查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：繼續追，臺灣不容許如此！對不對？"],["張副局長元斌：一定的！我們會確保我們國內的安全，這是我們國安團隊的責任。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有掌握幕後的黑手？"],["張副局長元斌：目前還在做比對研判。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有掌握？有方向？"],["張副局長元斌：方向的話，結合這個議題，因為這個議題是涉及到中共官方國有器官強摘人民器官，我們覺得當然跟中共應該會有相關性，但是我們必須結合科學證據……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：去徹查清楚！好不好？讓國人安心。"],["張副局長元斌：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1分鐘就好。文化部！"],["主席：請縮短。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。因為文化部身為影視主管機關，你事前有沒有察覺這樣子的政治威脅問題？有沒有？"],["王次長時思：事前沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：事前沒有，好！你誠懇地回答，本席給予讚許，但是我們要謹慎，也就是未來你要怎麼樣保障人民、民眾的言論，以及觀影的自由權，我相信這一個議題、這一個case可以讓我們作為警惕，我們去精準方案，是不是應當如此？"],["王次長時思：我們還是會保障這些電影院的播映權，保障電影的上映權。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你事前沒有掌控，也沒有預知，那事後要怎麼樣防範呢？"],["王次長時思：只要能夠保障上映的電影是安全的，其實就不會影響上片，目前為止，它也還在正常上映中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是已經有28件恐嚇出來啊！"],["王次長時思：但是沒有影響它的上片。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們的國安局跟刑事組已經在偵辦當中啦！"],["王次長時思：對，但是它還是有上片，而且還有包場。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是有上片跟包場嘛！這是臺灣民主最高的真諦嘛！所以本席還是具體建議，針對這樣的事件，你們也可以去檢討，還要怎麼樣讓人民更安心。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是？"],["王次長時思：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，次長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","林憶君","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","林楚茵","羅智強"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、文化部、內政部警政署、大陸委員會報告「從『國有器官』在台播映困境看中\n國對台灣的長臂管轄策略，及我國的因應方案」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00011"}}},{"id":"157495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a6963ecc34c1e99aa9efc61e85f95edfbe54b9bd157483afa73a7b2597b81be3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:35:32 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因為包括民航站啊包括碼頭啊那個海港那裡全部都不能動 縣政府所有單位都停包括百姓那這中間呢還發生了 很多民眾向本席澄清反映說因為臨時的跳電 很多設備壞掉的確有好多就是冷凍冷藏或是電腦設備突然就當掉"},{"start":50.659,"end":65.689,"text":"這個部分我們也有跟台電說,這個不預期的這種跳電,就是全島大停電這個部分的話,民眾受到這個損害,如何來跟民眾做相關的這個賠償,有什麼想法嗎?"},{"start":66.069,"end":67.169,"text":"陳玉珍陳玉珍陳玉珍陳玉珍陳玉珍"},{"start":96.019,"end":96.039,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":114.412,"end":135.584,"text":"原來你們說做這個除人的系統做即時救援你看我們後來有兩個新的在古林倉庫那裡你們原來的功能叫做即時救援109年、110年都做好了兩個有四個系統兩個是要做消風填谷有兩個是要做即時救援那這個就是最需要即時救援的時候完全沒有發揮功能啊"},{"start":138.707,"end":156.436,"text":"委員我跟您說明首先第一個基本發生這個事情臺電說再多都是就解釋不如我們好好檢討要怎麼改變我跟委員報告這件事情其實有好幾個部分包括就是說我們的有些設備是不是要裝"},{"start":158.517,"end":186.443,"text":"這講起來會非常長,但我知道都有一個報告我也讀了我的意思是說即時救援也沒有發揮功能啦你們這個要想看看因為也不是第一次全島大停電你們有那麼多機組那麼多設備這個也停那個停全島停會有局部啦全島停好幾次所以我覺得這個是你們要檢討一下那麼第二個補償啦或者是說賠償或者補償不管你怎麼用哪個詞這個你幫我想一個辦法因為你再基本太常發生我們沒有辦法接受"},{"start":187.003,"end":209.569,"text":"我那個台電的營業規章和一些規範我們會來跟你們的規範很多都是要很多人沒關係你們來規劃跟我講因為的確好多民眾提出這樣的要求當然金額都不是很大但是金額雖然不大但是也是民眾的這個損失啊幾千塊啊幾萬塊啊這也是損失啊你們這樣子對民眾影響太大了因為普遍性的多了"},{"start":210.529,"end":211.47,"text":"臺電在金門做風力還有太陽發電有兩個風力的在後面那邊"},{"start":232.282,"end":233.503,"text":"．玉珍．玉珍．玉珍"},{"start":257.333,"end":278.582,"text":"但是我們基本這個財政人員共比還是在10%以下,這大概跟全國是差不多了,10%是不是?差不多。但是你看一下發電城,在台灣用綠能比較貴,對不對?5塊多嗎?5塊多是不是?用那個一般的不然什麼藍莓什麼其他的發電,你們發電是3塊多是不是?還是4塊?"},{"start":280.342,"end":304.393,"text":"在台灣3塊多那在台灣用綠能是比較貴的齁對不對這是在台灣平均但是在金門在金門用綠能是比較便宜的你看金門用塔山發電廠發電成本是9塊269點26我們在金門用再生能源就是太陽光你們購買的是5點4對不對所以在金門用再生能源還便宜了3塊多對不對如果以你們112年購電量兩萬三千多度來講"},{"start":308.047,"end":334.399,"text":"一年就幫你們省了八千多（如果你們全島、全金門都用綠人（一年可以為政府省十億欸（對不對（這個沒錯吧（如果全島都用綠人（所以事實上（第一個本期在這個離島經濟條例裡頭（今天我們還有提啊（那離島經濟條例對於離島地區（尤其像我們這樣金門地區（不管你們現在才五塊多嘛（你們的成本大概在九塊十塊（在金門發電（如果就算加碼的補助（補到六塊（"},{"start":335.619,"end":335.739,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":353.071,"end":371.737,"text":"金門一年用電3.17億度,那個3.17億度要用再生能源如果用光電來算的話就是400MW大概就可以發到4億度左右但是因為它白天有晚上沒有所以我們還大概沒有辦法那麼高我們會加一些儲能剛才你有講了"},{"start":372.797,"end":379.443,"text":"我是完全支持,站在台電立場是完全支持金白白做再生能源。因為主要是空間。"},{"start":390.993,"end":395.836,"text":"我來請能源署來跟金門縣政府那邊再來談我請能源署來跟金門縣政府那邊再來談另外一個經濟部長不是說要在菲律賓、電線、電建覽嗎?菲律賓到台灣島是大概300多公里吧?旅送到台灣是300多公里吧?"},{"start":420.931,"end":445.283,"text":"那現在在2021��大概2021年的時候（澎湖跟那個臺灣島已經在變成網內（已經拉起來了（2021年已經拉起來了（對不對（那金門到臺灣也才200多公里（比呂宋島還近（比菲律賓還近（你們也可以考慮幫我們拉一條線（也是省（你現在發電一年在金門你要虧十幾億（一、二十億應該要（應該可能不止（對吧"},{"start":445.703,"end":445.843,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":463.34,"end":484,"text":"我那天也跟經濟委員會融業部講你那個牛節節你跟日本日本的牛換牛節節證就可以又可以賣來台灣金門的牛就不能賣來台灣我說台灣島齁那那個你都會想從菲律賓拉店你怎麼不想從金門這樣跟金門拉呢那我們變成一國嘛是不是往內嘛這可以思考"},{"start":486.941,"end":488.522,"text":"陳玉珍陳玉珍陳玉珍陳玉珍"},{"start":514.232,"end":515.416,"text":"有沒有問題?"},{"start":515.416,"end":516.278,"text":"是。 那多久給我呢?"},{"start":518.843,"end":520.084,"text":"張家俊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時35分）謝謝主席，請連次長、台電董事長。"],["主席：連次長、曾文生董事長。"],["曾董事長文生：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：113年7月9號金門發生全島大停電，總共影響了四萬多戶，幾乎沒有一戶倖免，交通號誌整個癱瘓，小三通的碼頭、機場這些海陸交通也完全停擺，包括民航站、碼頭、海港、縣政府全部都不能動，所有單位都停，包括百姓，這中間還發生了很多民眾向本席陳情反映，說因為臨時的跳電，很多設備壞掉，的確有好多，就是冷凍、冷藏或是電腦設備突然當掉，這個部分我們也有跟台電說，這種不預期的跳電、全島大停電，民眾受到的損害部分如何來向民眾做相關的賠償，你們有什麼想法嗎？因為我有問過，好像你們都覺得有困難，但是的確很多人是有實質受害的，你們至少要想個辦法，因為7月9號這不是第一次，以前也有過，後來你們蓋了9號機、10號機，金門後來多了兩個機組，也做了儲能設備，但是為什麼都沒有發揮作用？","你們8月7號有提出一個調查報告，我讀了，說了一些專業的東西，什麼故障、跳脫，這個跳脫、那個跳脫，全島所有的10個機組全部都沒有發生功能，包括儲能的部分，原來你們說做這個儲能的系統可以即時救援，你看，後來在古寧倉庫那裡有兩個新的，你們原來的功能叫做即時救援，109年、112年都做好了，有四個系統，兩個是要做削峰填谷、兩個是要做即時救援，這個就是最需要即時救援的時候，卻完全沒有發揮功能。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我跟你說明，首先第一個，金門發生這個事情台電說再多都是……解釋不如我們好好檢討要怎麼改變。"],["陳委員玉珍：這不是第一次啦！"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，這件事情其實有好幾個部分，包括我們有些設備是不是要裝、是不是要設定，這講起來會非常長，但……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，都有一個報告，我也讀了……"],["曾董事長文生：台電有疏失，需要改進，這是確定的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是說，即時救援也沒有發揮功能，你們這個要想看看，因為也不是第一次全島大停電，你們有那麼多機組、那麼多設備，這個也停、那個也停，全島停。"],["曾董事長文生：會有局部啦！全島是這一次……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，全島停好幾次，所以我覺得這個你們要檢討一下。第二個是補償或者是賠償，不管你用哪個詞，這個你幫我想一個辦法，因為在金門太常發生，我們沒有辦法接受。"],["曾董事長文生：台電的營業規章有一些規範，我們會來跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們的規範很多都是要……沒關係，你們來規劃，來跟我講，因為的確有好多民眾提出這樣的要求，當然金額都不是很大，金額雖然不大，但是也是民眾的損失，幾千塊、幾萬塊，也是損失啊！你們這樣子對民眾影響太大，因為普遍性的多啦！會後你跟我提看要怎麼做，來解決民怨，然後你們來幫金門做廠網分離。","我們來看金門再生能源的發展現況，104年以前主要是台電在金門做風力還有太陽光電發電，有兩個風機在后扁那邊，再加上文化園區有太陽能528KW，總共是4,528KW。政府也在推動一個低碳島計畫，在建築物、停車場等做太陽光電案場，縣政府也提供補助，113年7月大概達到兩萬三千三百多KW。但是金門整個再生能源供給還是在10%以下，大概跟全國差不多，但是你看一下發電成本，在臺灣用綠能比較貴，對不對？五塊多嘛！用一般的燃煤或是其他的發電是三塊多，還是四塊，是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：三塊多。"],["陳委員玉珍：在臺灣島用綠能是比較貴的，對不對？但是在金門用綠能是比較便宜的，你看，金門塔山發電廠的發電成本是9.26塊，我們在金門用再生能源，也就是太陽光電，你們跟我們買的是5.4塊，對不對？所以在金門用再生能源還便宜了三塊多，如果以你們112年購電量兩萬三千多千度來講，一年就幫你們省了八千多萬，如果金門全島都用綠能，一年可以為政府省10億，這個沒錯吧？","第一個，本席在經濟委員會排審的離島建設條例裡頭有提，離島建設條例對於離島地區，尤其像我們金門地區，現在才五塊多，你們在金門發電的成本大概在九塊、十塊，就算加碼補助補到6塊，還是比現在在金門用油來發電省4塊，你們還是省啦！如果全部做，一年大概可以省10億以上，我覺得你們可以思考這個是不是應該加強推動。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，金門一年用電3.17億度，3.17億度要用再生能源，如果用光電來算的話就是400MW，大概就可以發到4億度左右，但是因為它白天有、晚上沒有，所以大概沒有辦法那麼高，我們會加一些儲能，剛才你有講了，站在台電立場我是完全支持，金門可以做再生能源。"],["陳委員玉珍：你應該要再多增加一點，因為金門離島人家比較不願意去嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：我們也同意。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在只有加一點點，也不大夠，所以也沒有那麼多人要過去做，建設成本也會增加，所以不能跟臺灣一樣。"],["曾董事長文生：主要是空間，如果有……"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，我請能源署跟金門縣政府那邊再來談一下……"],["陳委員玉珍：我也在離島建設條例有提，你們這個要加油，再加一點，因為怎麼做你們都是比較省，在金門做再生能源就是比用油發電更省，現在是用油，你們是不是思考先改成天然氣，你們也可以省一點？"],["連次長錦漳：我請能源署跟金門縣政府那邊再來思考怎麼擴大。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個想看看。另外一個，經濟部長不是說要在菲律賓拉電纜線嗎？菲律賓呂宋島到臺灣大概是三百多公里，2021年的時候澎湖跟臺灣島已經拉起來了，金門到臺灣也才兩百多公里，比呂宋島還近、比菲律賓還近，你們也可以考慮幫我們拉一條線啊！也是省啊！你現在在金門發電一年要虧十幾億，一、二十億應該要，可能還不只，對吧？你如果拉線過來，長期來說也是比較省啊！當然我們還是鼓勵再生能源的發展，你是不是思考一下，現在你們拉到澎湖了嘛！可以從臺中拉過來，或從澎湖拉到金門，我們畢竟是一個國家，不能有兩種制度，不要實施一國兩制。那天我在經濟委員會也跟農業部講，你那個牛結節疹……"],["曾董事長文生：我們電價沒有收得比較高。"],["陳委員玉珍：日本的牛患牛結節疹就可以賣來臺灣，金門的牛就不能賣來臺灣，我說的是臺灣島。你都會想從菲律賓拉電，怎麼不會想幫金門拉呢？讓我們變成一國、網內嘛！這可以思考嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：本來就一國啦。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，但是你們現在的作法，讓我們都變成跟你們不一樣，你是不是思考一下？"],["曾董事長文生：沒有啦……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我做個總結，幾件事情，第一個是跳電，因為你們大停電造成很多損害，這個補償的機制要出來，你們去研究看要怎麼做。第二個，再生能源要再加強優惠，因為你們台電會省錢嘛！第三個，與其去菲律賓拉，你也考慮幫金門拉一條線，你也去做一下思考、研究，好嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有問題？多久給我呢？"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得前面第一題跟營業規章有關，我們花點時間，第二題我很快就可以回答，就是只要有空間，我們就去做。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，第一題也趕快給我答案。"],["曾董事長文生：不過委員，我要跟您說明……"],["陳委員玉珍：拉電線的事情，你研究一點時間沒關係。"],["曾董事長文生：金門可能在國家公園範圍的很多……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，國家公園部分，我們也找國家公園，他們如果不准做綠電的部分，我們也找國家公園來開會，因為金門很多國家公園嘛！大家一起來努力，可以嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝玉珍委員。","張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員不在。","接著請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":154.633,"end":177.637,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":178.241,"end":197.302,"text":"跟委員報告,我想當然服務法雖然都是有類似的條件,不過更具體的來講就是用烤雞法。我想我們的烤雞法適用到所有的同仁包括主管。所以我要講就是只剩下烤雞的所謂的那個,對,只有打烤雞的問題而已,所以沒有辦法對他有任何的約束。"},{"start":197.662,"end":198.443,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":216.665,"end":240.116,"text":"對我理解啦但是這個行政機關裡面就是我要跟部長講今天這件事情我覺得我們文官在相關的一些尤其基層文官我們公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下顯然我們在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的爛長官他們的所謂的威迫跟威壓我們的保障是不足的"},{"start":242.398,"end":255.391,"text":"考試院的部長有沒有針對這個部分覺得說哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障?我想這個部分的保障當然如果基層員工有對於管理的措施有任何"},{"start":256.513,"end":260.696,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":286.291,"end":305.884,"text":"我都剛剛還只講奢華我現在先問完再問你這個補強的部分從保障的部分因為現在大家都是說就是就霸凌這個部分並沒有在相關的法律當中有清楚的定位就這個部分法制面的確過去做的不足所以需要來做一些補強所以我們也在研議說從保障法我這樣細部問那個秘書長剛我還講說這位主管這個奢華浪費公帑"},{"start":312.808,"end":314.271,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":324.235,"end":344.289,"text":"其實霸凌的問題的話如果以現在的處理他有懲戒懲處各種的不同的管道啦就懲戒懲處他現在不在乎懲戒什麼我就舉一個例子喔這位分署長到現在我們覺得國人最無法忍受的地方在哪裡就是說他還蠻會保護自己的"},{"start":345.029,"end":346.529,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":371.881,"end":397.451,"text":"現在就是我看勞動部這邊的處理就是把他借兩大過免我講的是你連叫他出來面對真相我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有你不覺得嗎?不是嗎?我現在講的是懲處當然是一定要懲處因為懲處已經是最低了以他的狀況大家對他介入他在乎這個懲處嗎?了不起不幹這個公務員就算了嘛可是現在你今天鬧出人命"},{"start":398.737,"end":400.539,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":416.736,"end":441.938,"text":"已經沒有辦法去約束它嗎?不是嗎?你所感覺的?我覺得如果上級機關能夠多理解下級機關內部的管理狀況的話我就跟你講以現在來講上級機關也失靈了嘛所以你今天靠人其實已經走不通了嘛上級機關今天它上面的署長乃至於前任的勞動部長或現任勞動部長前任勞動部長已經走了,現在勞動部長已經請辭了"},{"start":444.639,"end":469.656,"text":"那今天回到這個個案那第二個問題我要再請教秘書長也請我們的相關的那個部會我剛剛只是講說今天謝榮的責任的問題顯然今天很明顯的你除了說用考機處分他以外你還真沒有第二個辦法那我也跟 問秘書長事實上其實本來是有個辦法可以把他叫來的你知道吧是什麼辦法你知道吧有一個辦法就立法院如果通過聽證調查"},{"start":471.092,"end":475.874,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金收支部分關於考試業務基金"},{"start":499.022,"end":519.098,"text":"把霸凌的真相完整交代了我跟秘書長說今天為什麼那麼在乎這件事情因為你今天不把整個發生的事件的過程清清楚楚的話你沒有辦法找出原因請問你怎麼樣去做未來的防範呢秘書長你說是吧一定先把事情釐清嘛對不對"},{"start":520.679,"end":522.081,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":532.369,"end":534.511,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":554.983,"end":560.168,"text":"關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":572.039,"end":575.32,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":603.727,"end":624.678,"text":"議員報告在我們的保障法裡面移族可以依照這個保障法來提起有關於對於這個事件的再申訴再申訴然後呢然後就會送我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的一個幫助協助甚至補償賠償有嗎這個在這個程序部的規定"},{"start":629.48,"end":631.403,"text":"我告訴你,你們也只能用自殺死亡這種個案來送啊?"},{"start":646.428,"end":665,"text":"自殺死亡的個案來送,對他保障就足夠。就像剛剛翁曉琳委員問的問題,我顯然你們也答不出來。他們提醒國家賠償。對,他可以。你覺得以目前機制他提醒國家賠償的那個成功的機率有多高?因為這是一個個案我們都不清楚,他就跟機關提,機關必須要去。我要特別講啊。"},{"start":665.72,"end":688.365,"text":"今天如果法制上你的規範不足夠的話他在請求權行使上他的後盾就不夠了所以這今天為什麼我今天要跟考試院講說真的拜託不只考試院跟人事行政總處真的要會商一下針對今天這種事情你沒有一個機制面去防堵可以這些所謂的霸凌長官的一個更嚴格的責任跟"},{"start":689.266,"end":698.682,"text":"對於所謂受害公務員能夠提供更多的保障的話這種事件說真的以後可能還會再度發生難道還要等到悲劇再度發生大家才有所警覺嗎?謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1005,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時33分）請劉秘書長。"],["主席：請劉秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長好。勞動部勞發署北分署謝宜容霸凌員工，導致員工輕生的案子，你應該已經很了解了，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：看媒體的報導很多。"],["羅委員智強：因為考試院對於公務人員的權利保障是至關重要的單位，所以針對這一件事情我有兩個面向要來請教一下秘書長，或是相關的首長也可以來跟大家釐清一下。第一個就是謝宜容到底要負擔什麼樣的責任？在公務員的身分上，他如果涉及對他的下屬在職場進行霸凌，這是第一個面向。第二個面向就是受霸凌致死的員工，他可以得到什麼樣的權利保障？首先我也必須表示真的是非常遺憾，我想秘書長大概也知道，因為我看到相關的過程及大家最後揭露的事實真相，這位公務員其實非常認真努力，你看他每天早上大概五、六點就去上班，然後加班到深夜，可是打卡時間竟然是在四點的時候，換言之，面對霸凌的時候，他還是非常努力認真的工作，甚至在選擇輕生的時候，他還把他的工作完成，所以那時候也有他的同仁揭露出來，他把上司不合理要求的工作完成之後，也付出了他的生命。在這樣的情況之下，也顯現出今天公務單位文官系統裡面的問題，事實上，文官的保障不只是外部，甚至內部都出了很多的問題，這真的是一個要好好檢討的地方。我想請教一下，針對謝宜容……當然一般可以區分所謂的刑事、行政跟民事責任。有關刑事的部分，我舉個例子來請教秘書長，你大概也有看到這位分署長謝宜容的辦公室非常奢華，花了很多錢裝潢，然後也耗用很多電費，像這種所謂的機關首長浪費公帑、鋪張奢華，就相關法規而言，有什麼樣的方式可以約束跟規範呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我是不是請施部長就服務法的部分來說明？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，雖然服務法都有類似的條文，不過更具體來講就是用考績法，我們的考績法適用到所有的同仁，包括主管。"],["羅委員智強：我要講的就是只剩下考績的……"],["施部長能傑：現在主要還是用考績法。"],["羅委員智強：就是只有打考績的問題而已，所以沒有辦法對他有任何的約束？"],["施部長能傑：不是，平常的時候我想機關裡面任何一個主管都有他的上級主管，上級主管是他最重要的……"],["羅委員智強：我就直接講上級主管根本就失控了啊！甚至他的上級主管現在也捲入風暴當中，他的上上級主管現在都已經離職了，基本上找他他就一推二五六啊！"],["施部長能傑：我理解，但是行政機關裡面就是……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟部長講……"],["施部長能傑：回過頭來還是考績法這個部分……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟部長講，針對今天這件事情，我覺得文官在相關的一些……尤其基層文官、公務員是處在非常弱勢的情況之下，顯然在法制上對於公務人員面對這種不合理的爛長官的威脅跟壓迫，我們的保障是不足的，我不知道考試院和部長有沒有覺得這方面有哪些部分可以強化對於基層員工的保障？"],["施部長能傑：針對這部分的保障，當然如果基層員工對於管理的措施有任何意見，他都有一些管道可以……"],["羅委員智強：不是，我不是跟你講現有的。我請教秘書長好了，你覺得現有的保障機制是足夠的嗎？以這個個案來說。"],["劉秘書長建忻：針對這個個案的發生，我們覺得很遺憾，上個禮拜五我們三個人曾經就這件事情交換意見，我們也覺得現行保障法的機制早就應該強化了。"],["羅委員智強：能不能請秘書長告訴我，在你們開會研析的意見當中，你們的方向是什麼？怎麼補強？我剛剛還只講到奢華，我現在先問完，再問你補強的部分。"],["劉秘書長建忻：針對保障的部分，因為現在大家都說就霸凌這個部分，在相關的法律當中並沒有清楚的定義和定位，就這個部分法制面過去的確做得不足，所以需要來做一些補強，所以我們也在研議要從保障法……"],["羅委員智強：我這樣細部問秘書長好了，剛剛我還講到這位主管奢華，浪費公帑來搞自己辦公室的舒適，霸凌也是啊！顯然目前來講霸凌也是考績問題而已是不是？"],["劉秘書長建忻：針對霸凌問題的話，如果以現在的處理，它有懲戒、懲處各種不同的管道。"],["羅委員智強：就是懲戒、懲處嘛，他現在也不在乎懲戒、懲處。我舉一個例子，針對這位分署長，到現在國人覺得最無法忍受的地方在哪裡？就是他還蠻會保護自己的，他非常會保護自己，顯然他也看透了在今天公務員保障系統裡面，相關法律強制力不足的問題，所以你會看到，到現在為止他還是不肯出面，錄個影帶就敷衍了事。我想請問公務機關到底有沒有力量可以強制他至少要出來面對社會大眾說明真相？以目前的機制有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：現在我看勞動部的處理就是把他記兩大過免職。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是連叫他出來面對、說明真相，我們的公務機關連這個能力都沒有，你不覺得嗎？不是嗎？當然是一定要懲處，懲處已經是最低限度了，以他的狀況，他在乎這個懲處嗎？了不起不幹公務員就算了嘛！可是你今天鬧出人命，一個機關有81個人被他逼到離職，真的是離譜到不能再離譜，這種離譜不只是個案的離譜，這種離譜代表什麼？在機制面上，顯然我們對於這種非常離譜、誇張、可惡的官員，已經沒有辦法去約束他嘛！不是嗎？秘書長，你覺得呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我覺得如果上級機關能夠多理解下級機關內部的管理狀況……"],["羅委員智強：我就跟你講，以現在來講，上級機關也失靈了嘛！你今天靠人其實已經走不通了，今天上級機關上面的署長，乃至於前任的勞動部長或現任的勞動部長，前任勞動部長已經走了，現任勞動部長已經請辭了。今天回到這個個案，第二個問題，我要再請教秘書長，也請我們相關的部會留意，我剛剛只是講謝宜容的責任問題，顯然今天很明顯的，除了用考績處分他以外，還真的沒有第二個辦法。我也問秘書長，事實上其實本來是有個辦法可以把他叫來的，你知道吧？是什麼辦法，你知道吧？有一個辦法，就是立法院如果通過聽證調查，可以針對霸凌案，直接就把他叫到國會來做聽證調查，沒錯吧！依照原來國會改革的規劃，沒錯吧！是啊！謝謝秘書長。但是我今天說真的，我對大法官其實是很尊重的，但最近大法官不管是對於實質廢死的判決以及沒收國會改革，就拿國會改革這件事來講，如果國會改革通過，今天就可以把謝宜容叫來立法院，把霸凌的真相完整交代了。我跟秘書長說，我為什麼那麼在乎這件事情？因為你今天不把整個發生的事件過程釐得清清楚楚的話，你沒有辦法找出原因，請問你怎麼樣去做未來的防範呢？秘書長，你說是吧？一定是先把事情釐清嘛，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，現在因為這個案子也會有監察院調查的程序。"],["羅委員智強：我就問你嘛！監察院的調查，我跟你直接保證啦！你相不相信，它的調查一樣就是考績處分而已啦！還能做什麼？"],["劉秘書長建忻：監察院調查就是懲戒，就是送到懲戒法院。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！最後……"],["劉秘書長建忻：那考績是行政機關有立即的權責……"],["羅委員智強：沒有，送懲戒法院，最後他最多也是不幹公務員嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，但是這個要看政院也有……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果他有涉及刑責也有送檢調。"],["羅委員智強：刑責是有關貪瀆的問題，講的還不是霸凌啦！那是不同的層次啊！他有沒有涉及貪瀆，那是刑事要偵辦，但今天我們面臨的另外一個課題、很嚴肅的課題是公務員的霸凌問題，我直接跟各位講，我就請所有今天在看我們司法及法制委員會質詢的，不是有一個很明顯的結論──拿他沒轍嘛！基本上面對這麼惡質的行為，他事實上是不用付出代價，除了今天叫他滾蛋以外，他不用付出什麼代價的，對他而言，他在乎滾蛋嗎？以媒體報導他的整個家世背景環境，他好像也不用在乎他滾蛋啊！今天最後一個就是回到，請問被霸凌致死的這位認真的公務員，到目前我們的機制能夠給他的保障是什麼？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，在保障法裡面，遺族可以依照保障法對於這個事件提起再申訴。"],["羅委員智強：再申訴，然後呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：然後就會送……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是實質到底能夠提供家屬什麼樣的幫助、協助，甚至是補償、賠償，有嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：這個在銓敘部的規定有。"],["施部長能傑：我想當事人當然會走撫卹的程序，那……"],["羅委員智強：以目前來看，你覺得撫卹程序會順利嗎？"],["施部長能傑：他就是自殺死亡，當個案送來的時候我們就認定，一定會成立。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你們也只能用自殺死亡這種個案來送，以自殺死亡的個案來送，對他的保障就足夠嗎？就像剛剛翁曉玲委員問的問題，顯然你們也答不出來，他能不能提起國家賠償？"],["施部長能傑：對，他可以。"],["羅委員智強：你覺得以目前的機制，他提起國家賠償成功的機率如何？"],["施部長能傑：因為這是一個個案，我們都不清楚，他就跟機關提，機關必須要做准駁。"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講，今天如果法制上的規範不足，他在請求權行使上，他的後盾就不夠了，所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謝謝委員指導我們會以委員指導的方向來推動未來無自來水地區的工作的改善那事實上在這一次行政院新通過的自來水地區供水改善計畫第5期裡面特別對原住民地區"},{"start":160.31,"end":180.281,"text":"包括如何去提升改善的部分本來每戶的這個成本那也獲得行政院的核定會大幅的這個提高每戶的成本合列的這個比例我知道這個有增加這個每戶的成本好那個講到這個部分一算書"},{"start":182.014,"end":208.829,"text":"預算書還是要實際上在執行的時候水利署在執行的時候是用原住民族部落是用原住民族部落所以還是要用預算書還是要把它寫清楚這個像我們114年度的預算書是寫原住民族第1期還是要把它改成原住民族部落這沒有問題吧因為你們執行就是這樣執行的嘛"},{"start":209.623,"end":221.582,"text":"跟委員說明無自來水地區供水改善計畫到最新的第5期我們一直是使用包括全國的無自來水地區的這個名稱"},{"start":222.95,"end":245.43,"text":"那特別在原住民地區因為他有一些的部落或是有一些的民眾他居住的地方他不一定是屬於說是聚合型的所以我們在我們的預算案裡面包括我們的計畫書裡面都用原住民地區的這個名稱來呈現這是第一個那第二個部分的話其實在大法官也有解釋啦"},{"start":246.611,"end":272.108,"text":"相關的這個預算案跟法律案畢竟是不同那因為我們過去所提的預算書全部都是用包括原住民地區的這個名稱那也依此沿用到第5期這個部分跟委員做一個說明這個因為正好是第5期新的一期新的一期而且我在部長也知道我也諮詢過行政院院長我也諮詢過行政院院長"},{"start":275.818,"end":285.706,"text":"實際上你們在執行適用部落,所以這個部落沒有問題,應該要改。我們會持續改善原住民地區的,我們預算審查的時候再討論。我們希望說一直提高原來沒有自來水,然後它可以有自來水或是簡易自來水的使用。"},{"start":299.175,"end":323.761,"text":"包括這個中央管流域整體及改善與調適計劃這個部分也是一樣這個也應該把這個原住民族地區改為原住民族部落這個部分預算審查的時候我們再好好討論所以這個部分那另外這個我先請那個水利署這4年來"},{"start":328.363,"end":352.545,"text":"這過去的4年在花蓮 花蓮縣就對那個像烈士堤防這樣的工程到底你們做了哪些提供給我素面資料好沒有問題好那另外這個常常發生的這個台11縣的花蓮大橋花蓮大橋然後往業美部落的193縣"},{"start":354.224,"end":354.566,"text":"193縣每一次颱風就會攤方"},{"start":359.106,"end":386.455,"text":"貪方,貪方有兩個狀況一個是從山上貪下來另外一個狀況就是從193線馬路貪到這個河流貪到這個河流,花蓮溪所以這個部分呢這個地方政府一切的反應這個不能只有災害的時候然後去拿災害準備金然後縣政府去做這個道路的一個復建"},{"start":389.451,"end":415.683,"text":"沿途有兩個地方一個不是你們的山上另外一個沿途有關係的就是河流河流花蓮溪的部分所以這個部分你們再去實際的跟縣政府瞭解應該怎麼去改善好不好 署長這個我們在未來進行的這個河道的輸進包括治理工程的部分我們會透過跨機關來協力"},{"start":419.073,"end":422.877,"text":"好接下來這個114年度這跟隨時沒有關係了這個科技專案的經費這個114年度234億7950萬2000元比這個113年度217億4800"},{"start":444.099,"end":444.759,"text":"財政委員委員會主席"},{"start":467.827,"end":481.632,"text":"發言委員：鄭天財Sra Kacaw發言委員．鄭天財Sra Kacaw發言委員．鄭天財Sra Kacaw發言委員．鄭天財Sra Kacaw發言委員．鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":497.629,"end":500.39,"text":"這個234億里面對國內團體之建築就高達222億5519萬這個額度是相當的高這個當然部長剛來我們利用這個機會也請這個產業發展師"},{"start":525.849,"end":548.15,"text":"那個是技術師技術師你是技術師但是預算邊內是在另外一個師啊是不是預算書啊還是預算書寫錯科技科技預算大部分都是邊在產業技術師好好好沒有錯吧產業產業產業沒有錯我看到預算書沒有錯啊好所以這個部分呢"},{"start":549.102,"end":556.272,"text":"是不是這四年來的執行的一個情形也提供素面資料給我?好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":549,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時35分）主席、各位委員，有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：也請水利署。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：首先要謝謝經濟部還有水利署在0918地震的時候經過本席質詢，提報行政院增列花東基金，現在這個計畫到今年年底，最近又有兩個部落在春日那邊願意接自來水，所以這個部分還請水利署跟自來水公司積極辦理。","這些相關新的，也就是114年度開始的「無自來水地區供水改善計畫第五期」，謝謝經濟部水利署提報新的第五期計畫，總共建設經費為96.5億，自來水公司事業預算為6.5億，花東基金有3億，總共是106億。現在要特別請經濟部水利署針對明年開始的第五期計畫，花東基金的部分是作為增加差額的部分，所以不能去減少原來的比例，這整個「無自來水地區供水改善計畫」，在花蓮、臺東原來的那個比例不能減少，不能因為有了花東基金就減了那邊的預算，署長可以嗎？"],["賴署長建信：謝謝委員的指導，我們會以委員指導的方向推動未來無自來水地區工作的改善，事實上這次行政院新通過的自來水地區供水改善計畫第五期裡面，特別對原住民地區，包括如何去提升改善的部分，本來每戶的成本也獲得行政院的核定，會大幅地提高每戶成本核列的金額。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，那個有增加每戶的成本。講到這個部分，預算書還是要……水利署在執行的時候，是用「原住民族部落」，所以預算書還是要把它寫清楚，像114年度的預算書寫的就是「原住民族地區」，所以還是要把它改成「原住民族部落」，這個沒問題吧？因為你們在執行的時候就是這樣執行的嘛！"],["賴署長建信：跟委員說明，無自來水地區供水改善計畫到最新的第五期，我們一直是使用全國的無自來水地區的名稱，特別在原住民地區，因為它有一些部落或是有一些民眾居住的地方不一定是屬於聚合型的，所以在我們的預算案裡面，包括我們的計畫書裡面都是用「原住民地區」的名稱來呈現，這是第一個。","第二個部分，其實大法官也有解釋，相關的預算案跟法律案畢竟是不同，因為我們過去所提的預算書全部都是還用……包括「原住民地區」這個名稱，也一直延用到第五期，這個部分就跟委員做個說明。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為第五期正好是新的一期，而且部長也知道，我也質詢過行政院院長，實際上你們在執行的時候是用「部落」，所以這個部分應該沒有問題，應該可以改。"],["賴署長建信：委員，我們會持續地改善原住民地區的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們等預算審查的時候再討論。"],["賴署長建信：我們希望一直提高它的……原來沒有自來水，然後現在都有……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對、對，我知道，我瞭解你們都在盡力了。包括「中央管流域整體改善與調適計畫」這個部分也是一樣，也應該把「原住民族地區」，改為「原住民族部落」，這個部分到預算審查的時候我們再好好討論，這是這個部分。","另外，我先請水利署，過去這4年來，花蓮縣類似堤防的工程，到底你們做了哪些？請提供給我書面資料。"],["賴署長建信：好，沒有問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：另外這個是常常發生的。這個台11線的花蓮大橋往月眉部落的193縣道，每一次颱風就會坍方，坍方有兩種狀況，一種是從山上坍下來的，另外一個狀況就是，從193縣道的馬路坍到河流（花蓮溪），所以這個部分地方政府一再地反映，不能只有在災害的時候去拿災害準備金，然後縣政府去做道路的復健。源頭有兩個地方，一個不是你們的而是在山上，另外一個源頭有關係的就是河流，也就是花蓮溪的部分，所以這個部分你們再實際去跟縣政府瞭解應該怎麼改善，好不好？署長。"],["賴署長建信：好，我們未來進行河道的疏浚，包括治理工程的部分，我們會透過跨機關協力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。接下來，114年度的這個跟水利署沒有關係了，這個科技專案的經費114年度是234億7,950萬2,000元，比113年度的217億8,136萬元，增加16億9,814萬2,000元，如果對比到112年度的決算162億6,985萬元的話，等於114年度又比增加的這個16億更多了，所以過去執行的狀況到底成效……然後因為你們的那個編列，幾乎都是對國內團體之捐助，這個額度在整個科技專案234億裡面，對國內團體之捐助就高達222億5,519萬，這個額度是相當地高。當然部長剛來，我們就利用這個機會，也請產業發展司嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：技術司。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你是技術司？預算編列是在另外一個司，是不是？我是說預算書。還是預算書寫錯？"],["邱司長求慧：科技預算大部分都是在編在產業技術司裡面。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，沒有錯吧？是在產業……"],["邱司長求慧：產業技術司。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我看的預算書沒有錯，所以這4年來執行的情形是不是也提供書面資料給我？好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來我們請呂玉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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10:43:30","影片長度":"00:10:03","會議時間":"2024-11-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：11月27日(星期三)、28日(星期四)一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分。四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金－海洋污染防治基金。\n\n備註：113年11月25日（星期一）、27日（星期三）、28日（星期四）【三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-27","start_time":"2024-11-27T10:33:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-27T10:43:30+08:00","duration":603,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-2-15-12"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.25846875,"end":2.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.27534375,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":2.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.8997187500000003,"end":4.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.438468750000002,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.664718750000002,"end":22.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.92409375000001,"end":90.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.40909375000001,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.04971875000001,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.48409375,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.72159375,"end":250.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.70721875,"end":212.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.77284375000002,"end":248.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.15659375,"end":362.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.72596875000002,"end":251.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.41784375,"end":251.43471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.76846875,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.58659375,"end":306.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.43846875,"end":309.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.08409375,"end":392.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.43784375,"end":367.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.40409375,"end":416.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.01159375000003,"end":396.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.08409375,"end":437.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.07034375,"end":427.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.94596875,"end":440.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.84846875000005,"end":462.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.69284375,"end":473.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.06659375000004,"end":474.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.10034375000004,"end":475.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.65284375000005,"end":481.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.59284375000004,"end":531.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.92846875000004,"end":495.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.55409375,"end":513.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.66784375,"end":517.5872187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.60659375,"end":535.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.50409375,"end":536.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.5209687500001,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.5247187500001,"end":544.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.0890937500001,"end":547.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.0378437500001,"end":588.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.7078437499999,"end":594.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.47034375,"end":592.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.42784375,"end":594.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.7390937499999,"end":600.34221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.298,"end":6.541,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請管主委主委好主委好主委我想剛剛我們多位委員不分政黨屬性我們都對海巡表達了極大的支持確實我們海委會在這裡真的就是保育台灣的海域安全保育台灣的海洋"},{"start":29.398,"end":52.245,"text":"能夠繼續生生不息這是我們最大的任務那如果說到海巡署其實本需要在這個其他的場合在院會以外的其他地方在地方碰到這個海巡署的弟兄的時候其實我的態度很清楚跟在委員會從上課會期一樣我們遇到了太多的事情都是靠海巡的弟兄在捍衛著台灣的第一線所以簡單講就只有一句要人給人、要錢給錢、要設備給設備就是應該是這樣子的態度所以喔"},{"start":58.467,"end":85.219,"text":"我今天看到今天海委會在編列海巡署的相關預算我不知道等一下在提案的時候各個委員提了多少案我當然也有提但我們希望精進所以提了幾個案件現在也都改成主決議因為跟部會討論過但如果還有其他不勝合理的案件的話不是只求精進而是不勝合理的我建議主委其實可以帶著大家一起到海巡的艦艇上面大家坐在艦艇上面來審預算我相信這些預算"},{"start":88.28,"end":90.242,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":112.361,"end":123.374,"text":"大家在看文字的時候沒有感覺但是看到了影像看到了這個海巡署的弟兄一手抓著桿一手要在這邊指揮一手要在這邊跟對方這個對峙然後你還要求他一手要拿著錄影機"},{"start":129.701,"end":130.541,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":152.368,"end":171.853,"text":"這表示什麼?表示這個工作並沒有辦法吸引到社會足夠的心血來投入來加入剛剛有討論到可能是因為薪水的關係那這個薪水又跟起薪也就是入行的第一階門檻有關係那剛剛有聽到說是必須跟國防部討論我們其實是覺得主委這個訊息釋出的比較慢一點喔如果是需要跟國防部討論我相信"},{"start":179.815,"end":186.76,"text":"不管是哪一黨的委員,基於台灣的海域安全,我們都願意跟海委會站在一起,跟國防部來討論,來向海巡的弟兄爭取更應有的薪資、應有的待遇。主委,我們這樣的建議,您應該是樂見其成吧?"},{"start":197.948,"end":212.412,"text":"非常謝謝委員給這麼多的鼓勵我想海巡的弟兄姊妹整個基層他們會很感動會很感謝那也謝謝委員都親自游到安檢所去是啊就是看過了才會更知道這是很辛苦的同仁都很開心還拍照給我看很謝謝委員"},{"start":215.993,"end":216.453,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海"},{"start":234.918,"end":235.839,"text":"海巡署及所屬、海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":249.995,"end":267.288,"text":"對,有特別解釋啦,不過我想這是涉及整個國家齁,能夠招聘新人的這個狀態,我們也會支持這個方向。好,那謝謝主委齁,我們在海巡的這個部分表達態度之後,還是要就另外一體我也相當關心的地方創生的部分來跟您就教喔。"},{"start":267.728,"end":288.615,"text":"我看到這個國發會在2025年推出了四年的打造永續共好地方創生計畫這當中有11個部會要參與地方創生而海委會的部分呢其實也參與在其中海委會扮演的角色有協助在地發掘海洋特色資源與文化發展落實永續推動生態旅遊、海域空間規劃、設施活化"},{"start":290.416,"end":295.561,"text":"甚至是海費資源循環再利用等等那這一些項目裡面呢我看到海委會這邊啊其實坦白講爭取到的預算似乎還不夠多因為四年的60億裡面呢海委會其實相當少啊他一共這四年裡面第一年"},{"start":311.576,"end":313.698,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海巡署及所屬"},{"start":331.089,"end":332.29,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海巡署及所屬"},{"start":361.289,"end":362.931,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海"},{"start":383.789,"end":385.45,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海"},{"start":402.461,"end":419.272,"text":"我們會很努力,然後好的案子不會漏接。那我們也會結合,我們海保署也有在地守護。那在地守護如果能夠跟地方創生結合的時候,兩岡罪也可以控制。主委,你現在這句話就是我想要問的第二個問題。第二個問題是兩岡罪到底可以控制嗎?"},{"start":422.194,"end":424.718,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":437.898,"end":440.6,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":463.254,"end":473.56,"text":"主委有一個好消息,就是我們處長下個月就會是漁業署署長,那漁業署在這個部分的經費好幾億,兩天罪也可以合作嗎?還是要更好地找好案,好案共同來支持?"},{"start":481.604,"end":503.332,"text":"我們是很高興樂見其成啦樂見可以在為更多的人更多的單位做服務啦雖然不曉得在這裡宣布不OK啦但是他已經被被被破光了已經喔那我們樂見其成但我要的答案確實是這樣因為我也贊成應該是要有好的計畫以後能夠足夠資源要撐起一個計畫"},{"start":504.432,"end":505.893,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海"},{"start":531.5,"end":532.882,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海巡署及所屬、海"},{"start":546.497,"end":557,"text":"那在這裡的話既然主委您的方式已經確定了那我也希望您能夠跟外界更大的不答海委會在這一類的計畫當中你的核心目標和審查標準因為我知道太多的團體都在期待著看這個補助計畫是要怎麼開出來怎麼被審核今天我們聽到了主委的態度那我們希望能夠更明確的不答核心目標"},{"start":572.584,"end":593.177,"text":"審查標準,讓我們每個人都能夠朝向您心外的方向,也可以一級正地。報告我們處長很優秀,9月份就開始辦說明會了。我們都到地方都去辦說明會。那因為連委員都還沒有收到資料,那所以麻煩一下,讓我也有機會可以去地方向您做傳播,替您做傳播。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,我們請徐信英委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時33分）謝謝主席，我們請管主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。主委，我想剛剛多位委員不分政黨屬性，都對海巡表達了極大的支持。確實我們海委會在這裡真的就是保育臺灣的海域安全、保育臺灣的海洋能夠繼續生生不息，這是我們最大的任務。說到海巡署，其實本席在其他場合，在院會以外的其他地方，在地方碰到海巡署弟兄的時候，其實我的態度很清楚，跟在委員會從上個會期一樣，我們遇到了太多的事情，都是靠海巡的弟兄在捍衛著臺灣的第一線，所以簡單講就只有一句：要人給人、要錢給錢、要設備給設備，就應該是這樣的態度。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我今天看到海委會在編列海巡署的相關預算，我不知道等一下在提案的時候，各個委員提了多少案，我當然也有提，但我們希望精進，所以提了幾個案件，現在也都改成主決議，因為跟部會討論過，但如果還有其他不甚合理的案件的話，不是只求精進，而是不甚合理的，我建議主委其實可以帶著大家一起到海巡的艦艇上面，大家坐在艦艇上面來審預算，我相信這些預算都能夠適當地通過。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我希望請委員們來考察，我會非常、非常開心。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有，我說真的，因為我們上個會期在這裡的時候，我記得我們這一屆的委員第一次進到院會來，其實在內政委員會的第一個案件就是海委會嘛，就是中國籍的船艦來向我們進逼、威逼，大家在看文字的時候沒有感覺，但是看到了影像，看到了海巡署的弟兄一手抓著桿，一手要在這邊指揮，一手要在這邊跟對方對峙，然後你還要求他一手要拿著錄影機，這個實在是……我覺得這些要求不甚合理，所以應該要給予我們的弟兄們，真的還是那句話：要人給人、要錢給錢、要設備給設備。","不過，比較可惜的是，我們看到了現在的預算員額是有增加，但實際的員額卻是在減少，這表示我們的缺口更大了，這表示什麼？表示這個工作並沒有辦法吸引到社會足夠的新血來投入、加入。剛剛有討論到可能是因為薪水的關係，這個薪水又跟起薪、也就是入行的第一階門檻有關係，剛剛有聽到必須跟國防部討論，我們其實是覺得，主委，這個訊息釋出的比較慢一點，如果是需要跟國防部討論，我相信不管是哪一黨的委員，基於臺灣的海域安全，我們都願意跟海委會站在一起來跟國防部討論，幫海巡的弟兄爭取更應有的薪資、應有的待遇，主委，我們這樣的建議，你應該是樂見其成吧！"],["管主任委員碧玲：非常謝謝委員給這麼多的鼓勵，我想海巡的弟兄姐妹、整個基層他們會很感動、會很感謝，也謝謝委員都親自到安檢所去慰勉我們的同仁。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，就是看過了才會更知道啊，這實在是很辛苦的啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：同仁都很開心，還拍照給我看，很謝謝委員。另外我也很願意，如果我們委員會能夠來我們海巡的單位考察，我們非常地歡迎，我們還有很多需要替基層同仁的福利來促進的部分。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有關於因為是軍職，我目前談的是我們岸巡，我們岸巡是軍職，軍職的話就國防一體，所以在起薪4萬這個部分，涉及的是整個陸、海、空軍共同的問題，所以會比較困難，是這樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：剛剛主委有特別解釋，不過，我想這是涉及整個國家能夠招聘新人的狀態，我們也會支持這個方向，好，謝謝主委，我們在海巡的這個部分表達態度之後，還是要就另外一題，我也相當關心的地方創生的部分來跟您就教。我看到國發會在2025年推出了4年的打造永續共好地方創生計畫，這當中有11個部會要參與地方創生，而海委會其實也參與在其中，海委會扮演的角色有協助在地發掘海洋特色資源與文化發展、落實永續推動生態旅遊、海域空間規劃及設施活化，甚至是海廢資源循環再利用等等，在這些項目裡面，坦白講，我看到海委會這邊爭取到的預算似乎還不夠多，因為4年的60億裡面，海委會其實相當少，在這4年裡面，一共4年，只有6,000萬，第一年1,000萬、第二年1,500萬，第三、四年各2,000萬，如果再分配到地方政府跟民間團體下去的話，其實每一個可以申請到的數額更是稀少啦。你看看我幫你列出了這個表單，如果每一個單位、地方跟民間團體都用能夠申請到最高金額來算的話，第一年1,000萬，頂多你就只能補2個地方政府加1個民間團體，你的預算就用完了啊！主委，你心中有沒有什麼樣的規劃、規格是這些團體應該符合什麼樣的標準和宗旨而能夠申請到？你心中打算是繁花盛開、遍地開花式的補助案，還是要精準投資，是最好、最大的計畫，你才願意給？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，最理想的是我們要精準投資。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你贊成的是精準投資？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，但是以海委會來講的話，我們希望一峰突起也要眾山環繞，為什麼呢？因為初期在推動有關於地方創生的部分，在海委會這裡來講的話，我們明年開始才會有第一個中長期計畫，過去是用公務預算來做，那公務預算來做的時候，規模就很小。跟委員報告，我來的時候，海委會的預算1年會本部才6億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，所以這一年增加了相當多的預算。"],["管主任委員碧玲：後來變成8億，明年變成11億，仍然是微乎其微。所以我們會很努力，然後好的案子不會漏接，我們也會結合，我們海保署也有在地守護，在地守護如果能夠跟地方創生結合的時候，兩缸水也可以放在一起。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，你現在這句話就是我想要問的第二個問題，第二個問題是，兩缸水到底可不可以放在同一注？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果是同一個案，共同都有這些風向……"],["蘇委員巧慧：確實就是這樣，因為如果要推動鯨豚觀光，我是跟你申請還是跟交通部？我可以兩邊都申請嗎？假設我用一個鯨豚觀光來說的話。"],["管主任委員碧玲：它基本上沒有排斥。"],["蘇委員巧慧：基本上沒有排斥嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的案基本上沒有排斥。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，基本上沒有排斥。主委，我們就是等您這句話，因為我們的時間也是有限，在這個過程中，從你的回答當中我聽到了我想要的，第一，精準投資和遍地開花你不排斥，你贊成精準投資，因為希望以大帶小；但你也不反對，如果有好的狀況的話，其實也可以多來幾個。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，主委，這個部分……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，有一個好消息，就是我們處長下個月就會是漁業署署長，漁業署在這個部分的經費好幾億，兩缸水也可以合在一起，以後會更好去找好的案子共同來支持。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們是很高興、樂見其成，樂見可以為更多的人、更多的單位做服務，雖然不曉得在這裡宣布OK不OK啦，但是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：他已經被曝光了，而且也定案了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那我們樂見其成，但我要的答案確實是這樣，因為我也贊成應該是要有好的計畫以後，能夠有足夠資源撐起一個計畫，不要到遍地，我贊成每個人都有資源，但是不能遍地開花到每一個都是小小的資源，這樣做不出東西來，我覺得就會可惜了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有潛力的我們給它一個基礎。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是如果海委會這邊一個單位沒有辦法給足預算，我也支持可以讓各個部會不管是觀光也好或是現在提到的漁業署也好來共同支持，現在聽到你肯定的答復，我覺得……"],["管主任委員碧玲：以後三缸水──會本部、海保署和漁業署已經確定了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：最好是這樣，甚至你可以加入其他部會，我也不反對，你可以加入文化部或其他的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：經濟部也可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我都贊成，所以在這樣的狀況下……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是那邊沒有我們的人，現在漁業署……"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這裡既然主委的方式已經確定了，我也希望你能夠跟外界更大的布達，海委會在這一類計畫當中的核心目標和審查標準，因為我知道太多團體都在期待著看這個補助計畫要怎麼開出來、怎麼被審核，今天我們聽到了主委的態度，我們希望能夠更明確地布達核心目標、審查標準，讓我們每個人都能夠朝向你希望的方向，也可以一擊中的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們處長很優秀，9月份就開始辦說明會了，我們都到地方去辦說明會，業界或縣市政府……"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為連委員都還沒有收到資料。"],["管主任委員碧玲：很抱歉。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以麻煩一下，讓我有機會可以去地方替您做傳播。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝委員，地方創生很重要。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-12","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","吳琪銘","羅智強","丁學忠","許宇甄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政\n府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及\n所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬\n單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金─ 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他國家的時候也擴大對長臂管轄的定義或者也叫做域外管轄北席這樣的定義應該是沒有問題吧是"},{"start":40.424,"end":44.848,"text":"那好 那我們過去在討論長臂管轄的時候一開始的經典的案例應該就是美國引用了他們的貿易法第301條對其他國家的企業啟動反壟斷的調查甚至實施了制裁後來中國也學到了一套的方法就是確用了到政治用途上面變成利用他們的國安法"},{"start":62.325,"end":66.987,"text":"搭配中國在全球超過50個緊喬事務的海外服務站逼迫海外的中國人必須要協助中共或者依照中國的反分裂法還有刑法還有等法條對他們自己的定義所謂的頑固台獨分子清單上的人追究終身責任譬如像是國防部長啊顧立雄部長啊還有我們的主席啊王定宇、趙偉啊"},{"start":91.038,"end":92.841,"text":"本會委員：沈博洋這些人都可能被列在中國清單上這幾位都是中國利用自己制定的國內法對台灣實施長臂管轄的案例"},{"start":106.577,"end":127.149,"text":"你覺得這樣本席這樣理解應該是沒有問題吧?對,跟委員報告其實中共基於意識形態還有它政治意圖去用國內法來作為境外或長臂的管轄事實上兩岸是互不隸屬所以我們國人就我們憲法所保障的民主自由其實它是沒有這樣"},{"start":129.11,"end":155.616,"text":"在我們國人來講其實我們並不會受到中共的長臂管轄在國內來講是沒有影響至於到國外的話因為有些美盟國家或者有盟國家事實上他們更重視他們自己司法自主所以不容許中共在引渡上他們也會排除政治意義人士的引渡那所以這些政治法定的話"},{"start":156.877,"end":161.328,"text":"未必會配合他的辦理但某些親中國家這個可能是例外"},{"start":162.162,"end":190.606,"text":"那請問一下剛才這樣講一講說副局長你認為剛才所說的中共的長臂管轄究竟是法律戰還是心理戰還是輿論戰這三戰裡面的那一種樣態我想是一個複合的結果第一個有法律他立法了就國內的他自己國內的法去執行擴擠到境外另外他透過這些宣揚去做認知作戰做心理的一個影響"},{"start":191.626,"end":211.442,"text":"目的就是要達成它的寒產效應,達成它的政治目的,這是一個複合式的一個做法。好,那副局長,那根據你們今天報告中有指出,近期國內影城播放了國有器官的紀錄片,揭露了中共高官活摘人民器官,然後以達到嚴肅的目的,這種不法的行為。"},{"start":212.362,"end":222.051,"text":"10月份的話那10月份的時候文化部還有高雄市議會還有台北市摩影城這些地方都陸續接獲疑似網軍寄送網路恐嚇電子郵件到11月22號為止這些大約這些共接受了接獲了28起的恐嚇案件那請問這種滋擾的樣態跟2022年美國裴洛西議長來台灣訪問的時候是不是有一些相似的地方呢"},{"start":239.702,"end":258.576,"text":"這一次比較是恐嚇的信件或者是等於是類似這樣恐嚇的訊息那裴若曦因為那時候桃園機場也是接收到好幾次的恐嚇的訊息有部分但是他又有更多的妄害攻擊包括他供獻了一些"},{"start":260.639,"end":263.821,"text":"這次比較像是純粹用恐嚇信件還有恐嚇的訊息來做威懾"},{"start":282.079,"end":285.461,"text":"請教副局長中共今年6月也發布了成都22條意見所以算是狹義上的長臂管轄那對台灣民眾現在赴大陸工作還有旅遊造成很大的風險那國安局現在有沒有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":299.529,"end":322.217,"text":"這個部分也是我們政府機關也在提醒國人因為現在中共制定這些國安法也好反滲透法也好這些法令有些定義是模糊的由他的國安人員或公安人員他可以自由認定所以對我們賦入的國人事實上是有一些風險所以我們也不斷在做這樣的一個提醒"},{"start":323.001,"end":339.207,"text":"那國安局你的意思就是說其實我們是很難中國很難對中國有什麼特別明顯的反制措施是嗎那能做的竟然就是只有提醒國人前往中國大陸的時候自己要非常小心那就是等於是自己的生命自己顧就對了是這個意思就對了"},{"start":340.89,"end":360.24,"text":"這個部分是等於是中共現在的措施我們必須讓國人知道它對國人負辱的風險也要讓國人知道這是我們必須要提醒的那當然政府有相應的作為比如說我們的主權的捍衛這個我們各部門全者部門都在做"},{"start":361.843,"end":382.918,"text":"其實像法國跟加拿大其實在2024年就是也會就會有這種通過類似反制的長臂管轄的這些反外國的干預法令其實我認為這些國家的修法的案例其實是可以用為我們未來修法的重要的參考所以局長今天你回去之後是否請國安局找時間邀請其他相關部會一起跨部會討論一下及研議一下呢"},{"start":385.422,"end":394.02,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒這些相關的他國的措施我們也會去收整然後來做研析然後提供給相關單位來做評估參考"},{"start":396.621,"end":424.54,"text":"接下來我再請教副局長說中共最近幾年對台灣還有利用超軍事的手段威脅恐嚇越來越多元所以頻率也一直在增加中尤其是治安威脅還有駭客攻擊這些引因錯假訊息的方式還有用一些拒絕進口台灣農產品的產品這些手段作為國家安全應對的主要機關國安局的人力需求是不是也是應該相對的增加這些人力呢"},{"start":425.661,"end":450.781,"text":"謝謝委員能夠支持我們國安局的一個工作還有相關預算跟人力的支持我們局裡針對這個威脅形態的變化是內部也有做一些那個任務還有那個重點的一個提醒還有人員的培訓那目前我們相應各個業務處針對這些新生的威脅新興威脅目前都有掌握也都有應處"},{"start":452.079,"end":477.645,"text":"因為我現在看到立法院的預算中心整理出近幾年的國安局的志願士兵的招募的情況我們看一下從106年開始國安局的招募的率幾乎是在一成到三成的邊緣徘徊其實這是真的是一個非常慘字來形容所以根據本席跟國安局所知送來的資料居然是113年的招募狀況是最近是最好的狀況那局長那你認為你不覺得這個表"},{"start":481.306,"end":505.594,"text":"有一些怪怪的嗎跟委員報告事實上之前招募情形受限很多因素包括當時疫情影響或其他種種因素但是我們後來在這是招募志願役士兵所以我們在對這招募士兵上有多做一些去介紹宣導所以我們在113年委員可以看到目前已經"},{"start":506.894,"end":508.014,"text":"副局長你把這種招募的目標減成一半"},{"start":535.979,"end":563.045,"text":"就是說你們不管怎麼樣努力答不到乾脆就直接減半嘛這樣就可以躺平打標沒事的嘛如果每年都是需要60個人的員額那就應該招募60個人的目標千萬不要為了讓自己國安局的表面上面的招募率數字好看就把目標數減半因為你這樣國安局是不是就帶你提供錯假訊息給監督你們的立法委員啊所以我還是希望說國安局還是"},{"start":564.065,"end":584.139,"text":"真的缺多少人,年度目標就一定是要定多少人,這樣才能真正的解決人力不足的問題。是,跟委員報告,我們要招募的緣額都是經過精算,按照任務去做核實的一個估算,然後提出這個逐年要招募的一個緣額,這個部分我們是會是這樣在作業。"},{"start":584.599,"end":584.679,"text":"林憶君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":337,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請國安局副局長。"],["主席：副局長，請。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：副局長好。首先我想請教副局長一個比較名詞定義的問題，你們今天的報告提到國家主權的長臂管轄權，原本應該是指法院將管轄權延伸至轄區之外，後來學術界在討論，國家將自己的國內法延伸到其他國家的時候，擴大對長臂管轄的定義，或者也叫做域外管轄，本席這樣的定義應該是沒有問題吧？"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["林委員憶君：好。我們過去在討論長臂管轄的時候，一開始的經典案例應該就是美國引用他們的貿易法第三百零一條，對其他國家的企業啟動反壟斷調查，甚至實施制裁；後來中國也學到這一套方法，卻用到了政治用途上面，利用他們的國安法，搭配中國在全球超過50個警僑事務的海外服務站，逼迫海外的中國人必須要協助中共，或者依照中國的反分裂法還有刑法等等法條，對他們自己所定義的所謂頑固臺獨分子清單上的人追究終身責任，譬如像是國防部顧立雄部長，還有我們的主席王定宇召委，還有本會的委員沈伯洋，這些人都可能會被列在中國的這份清單上面，這幾位都是中國利用自己制定的國內法對臺灣實施長臂管轄的案例，你覺得本席這樣理解應該是沒問題吧？"],["張副局長元斌：對，跟委員報告，其實中共基於意識形態還有它的政治意圖，用國內法來作為境外或長臂管轄，事實上兩岸是互不隸屬，所以我們國人就我們憲法所保障的民主自由，在我們國人來講，其實我們並不會受到中共的長臂管轄，這部分在國內來講是沒有影響；至於國外的話，因為有些美盟國家或者友盟國家，事實上他們更重視自己的司法自主，所以不容許中共……在引渡上，他們也會排除政治異議人士的引渡，所以在這些政治法令的部分，未必會配合它的辦理，但某些親中國家可能是例外。"],["林委員憶君：請問一下，剛才這樣講，副局長，你認為剛才所說的中共的長臂管轄究竟是法律戰，還是心理戰，還是輿論戰，這三戰裡面的哪一種樣態？"],["張副局長元斌：我想是一個複合的結果，第一個有法律，它立法了，就它自己國內的法去執行，擴及到境外；另外，它透過這些宣揚去做認知作戰、做心理的影響，目的就是要達成它的寒蟬效應，達成它的政治目的，這是一個複合式的作法。"],["林委員憶君：好。副局長，根據你們今天報告中指出，近期國內影城播放了「國有器官」紀錄片，揭露了中共高官活摘人民器官以達到延壽的目的的這種不法行為，10月份的時候，文化部、高雄市議會以及臺北市某影城這些地方都陸續接獲疑似網軍寄送網路恐嚇電子郵件，到11月22號為止，共接獲28起的恐嚇案件，請問這種滋擾的樣態跟2022年美國裴洛西議長來臺灣訪問的時候是不是有一些相似的地方呢？"],["張副局長元斌：這一次比較是恐嚇的信件，或是類似這樣恐嚇的訊息，那裴洛西議長……"],["林委員憶君：因為那時候桃園機場也是接收到好幾次的恐嚇訊息。"],["張副局長元斌：有部分，但是又有更多的網駭攻擊，包括它攻陷一些看板去散布一些醜化的訊息，還有它置換部分機關的網站網頁，所以是比較全面性的。這一次比較像是純粹用這種恐嚇信件還有恐嚇訊息來做威懾。"],["林委員憶君：好。請教副局長，中共今年6月也發布了懲獨22條意見，所以算是狹義上的長臂管轄，對於臺灣民眾現在赴大陸工作及旅遊造成很大的風險，國安局現在有沒有什麼因應的措施？"],["張副局長元斌：這個部分我們政府機關也在提醒國人，因為現在中共制定的國安法也好、反滲透法也好，這些法令有些定義是模糊的，可以由它的國安人員或公安人員自由認定，所以對我們赴陸的國人事實上是有一些風險，所以我們也不斷在做這樣的提醒。"],["林委員憶君：所以國安局的意思就是，其實我們是很難對中國有什麼特別明顯的反制措施，是嗎？能做的竟然就是只有提醒國人前往中國大陸的時候自己要非常小心，就等於是自己的生命自己顧就對了，是這個意思就對了？"],["張副局長元斌：這個部分等於是中共現在的措施，我們必須讓國人知道，對於國人赴陸的風險，也要讓國人知道，這是我們必須要提醒的。當然政府有相應的作為，譬如說我們的主權捍衛，其實這個部分我們各個權責部門都在做。"],["林委員憶君：其實像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售店收入的千分之十這是確定的"},{"start":249.158,"end":272.311,"text":"他沒有任何模糊空間後面反而是因為他們當時候報給黃平小組委員會的時候他們報的金額就已經低報了所以他自己寫個約可是我們看的是前面你增加上去是不是應該就要實質你去看我們所有的回饋辦法你看我們所有廠商對政府的回饋辦法"},{"start":279.005,"end":295.371,"text":"他看的是前面然後他多少的一個收入就要做多少的回饋拜託我們政府不要再替他講話了所有的人民眼睛都在看從去年講到現在置之不理他有溝通什麼嗎 沒有好署長他的惡質在哪裡再來"},{"start":307.208,"end":334.722,"text":"請問這也是我一直質疑的第二期工程他沿用一起管線在環評的時候現在我們調出來爭霸根本完全沒有提供在過去一起管線他的安全性還有現在甚至是未來還要再沿用50年沒有環評裡面沒有結果我們委員會也是可以眼睛閉著就給他通過了我不知道他怎麼有那麼大的能耐"},{"start":336.055,"end":354.707,"text":"我需要我要求人民一個安全的管線人民一個安全的生活空間結果居然是要你們經濟部能源署去要求申報趕快去做事後現在的管線檢測你們現在不是就在做事後的管線檢測嗎"},{"start":360.339,"end":386.809,"text":"發言委員這個管測的檢測工作已經在今年完成那 完成什麼所以嘛本來在環評的時候就要完成的就要提供給環評的結果沒有我們把這件事情爆發之後爆發之後要求你們甚至在去年署長你還記不記得我還特別在審你們的預算的時候做了一個附帶決議"},{"start":391.059,"end":412.869,"text":"請問那個附帶決議飛到哪裡去了附帶決議裡面有兩項工作一個就是要做確保這個安全所以我們有要求申辦要做安全的管測的檢測那檢測結果出來了那也為請公園院做第三方認證認證的結果要怎麼認證官官相問要怎麼認證誰能夠相信在這地底下的"},{"start":413.729,"end":427.39,"text":"安全性然後他本來一起你跟地方講的他是只有要用到一起50年而已你現在跟地方說沒有連二期都要繼續沿用請問在這之前他有辦過說明會嗎沒有欸"},{"start":429.833,"end":432.796,"text":"沒有耶!沒有耶!在之前都沒辦過說明會!那是什麼說明會你知道嗎?那說明會我在現場你知道7月份的說明會是什麼嗎?是什麼嗎?沒有!沒有署長我當下!"},{"start":449.941,"end":458.895,"text":"開完會我馬上就打電話給你我說你他在辦什麼說明會說明會都沒有往後的檢測都講說沒有問題我們沒有問題"},{"start":461.365,"end":482.158,"text":"人民是要聽這些嗎?你明明跟地方說一期只能用50年當時候跟地方是這麼講結果現在二期要沿用一期你沒有跟地方說明之前沒有之前都沒有欸是我們要求之後才7月份去開的那一場結果那一場是什麼會?"},{"start":483.404,"end":483.524,"text":"請問那個公開有什麼用?"},{"start":502.6,"end":503.522,"text":"請問公開那個有什麼用?整個程序都違反了!你鬥著走!"},{"start":516.567,"end":516.747,"text":"第三點"},{"start":546.26,"end":565.361,"text":"我去年就跟你們說這個電業法裡面規定回饋金30%這個專案型電協金是由年度電協金的30%這個是由業者親自來做一個管控對不對"},{"start":569.473,"end":584.96,"text":"電協金裡面70%給地方政府那個是定額的回饋那另外30%是要組一個委員會來不要再騙人了啦什麼叫委員會是業者去找的你們裡面"},{"start":586.884,"end":605.879,"text":"完全開放根本裡面講到你說嘛第5條我寫得很清楚嘛你自己看嘛這裡面有寫什麼結果我如果沒有追喔去年我如果沒有追喔你知道這30%是要給誰就給業者可以專案使用喔他就變成小金庫喔這個小金庫變成他在打擊一級的小金庫"},{"start":609.662,"end":632.626,"text":"根本不知道 這個專案型的裡面我們會要求他有一個審議委員會什麼叫審議委員會審議委員會裡面的成員就包括我們地方政府什麼叫審議委員會 這也是他們找的啊沒有 就包括地方政府是他們找的啊在去年我就叫你們要重新修改然後重新調整甚至要把所有的問題點出來到底這個專案型電協計要怎麼處理到現在到現在一年了"},{"start":639.639,"end":658.649,"text":"去年審預算的時候到今年現在也要審預算了你把我們當成什麼我們的監督是什麼然後申辦就一直在打我們的臉審議委員會9位成員裡面市府兩位然後由大學來推薦5位教授"},{"start":660.369,"end":678.553,"text":"誰能夠去把握說這個推薦到底是什麼處理我叫你們要把所有的制度弄出來也沒有從去年到現在都沒有都沒有然後申辦一直在做這個某人小金庫的處理我告訴你我告訴你他把地方當什麼他把地方當什麼"},{"start":690.563,"end":711.997,"text":"處長我們從去年到現在我今天跟你講今天剛好是因為要審預算的專案的一個業務報告對不對針對預算的剛好去年到現在剛好一年剛好一年你們做了什麼我這些問題都是當時候就提了你又叫我怎麼通過你們的預算"},{"start":717.389,"end":726.415,"text":"我怎麼通過你們的預算?我怎麼通過你們的預算?沒有啊!你的說明會根本就是敷衍的!你就是敷衍的!你完全就是敷衍的!你知道你們當時候的說明會我馬上就打給你的嘛!"},{"start":734.967,"end":736.648,"text":"一年前跟一年後所有的問題都一樣沒有改變"},{"start":765.041,"end":765.182,"text":"陳委員辦公室說明"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時21分）謝謝召委，請部長還有能源署署長。"],["主席：請郭部長、能源署署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，因為我去年開始在追這個案子的時候，你還沒上任，當時候是王美花部長，所以我想這個案子署長會比較了解。我從去年追到現在，完全沒有任何的下落，然後就任憑森霸不斷地放話。來，署長，21.6億的回饋金，森霸欠我們臺南的什麼時候要還？什麼時候要還我們？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，有關森霸回饋金一期的部分，我們現在已經要求森霸的董事長要跟在地的區長跟里長去做充分溝通。"],["陳委員亭妃：不用溝通啊，這已經是事實了，要溝通什麼？這是事實了，是你要怎麼還這一筆錢給地方，這才是最重要的，請問要溝通什麼？在我們的資料裡面、環評裡面已經很清楚寫到，當時它的回饋金是「售電收入」，這四個字白紙黑字大家看得很清楚，我們大家都讀過書，應該都很清楚什麼叫「售電收入」，售電收入不是扣除成本喔！"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，就是說它的……"],["陳委員亭妃：不是喔！售電收入10‰，這個很清楚。"],["游署長振偉：對，所以後面還有一個每年的回饋金約3,000萬到5,000萬……"],["陳委員亭妃：那個是當時候他們報的，沒有，署長，你看你就要替他們講話了。"],["游署長振偉：沒有、沒有，不是幫他們講話。"],["陳委員亭妃：後面這個所謂的金額3,000萬到5,000萬，你有沒有看到前提？當時候它報給上面的是說，它的售電收入只有那些錢，可是沒有想到原來它的售電收入是增加了好幾倍、好幾倍、好幾十倍，所以前提是售電收入的10‰，所以每年約3,000萬到5,000萬，這個是當時候它給予中央的所有訊息，是只有那些錢而已，結果沒有想到我們整個售電是往上飆升的，你往上飆升之後，當然要增加上去啊，所以它為什麼要寫一個約？約就是未定嘛，未定啊！"],["游署長振偉：所以跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：它當時候所提的，它預估森霸一期每年大概就是這些收入，所以才會有所謂的約，結果沒有想到是往上飆升，往上飆升之後，是不是就應該要回饋給民眾？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，這個文字……"],["陳委員亭妃：這就是這樣嘛，因為你每年的計價，每年的售電，你都會有不一樣的估價跟售電的狀況，那你就應該要加上去回饋給地方，是不是？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，這個案子它是在環評目前的回饋計畫裡面。"],["陳委員亭妃：環評的回饋裡面寫得很清楚嘛！「售電收入千分之十」這一句話是固定的、是確定的。"],["游署長振偉：對，白紙黑字寫在那邊，那後面……"],["陳委員亭妃：後面是「約」，你看喔！他寫說「每年回饋金金額約」，為什麼要一個「約」？因為當時候報給他們的，就是大概是這樣的數字，可是當我們電費上去之後是不是要增加？是不是要增加？"],["游署長振偉：根據他們環評的目前回饋……"],["陳委員亭妃：是不是要增加？"],["游署長振偉：如果按照百分之十計算，當然有一個收入……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然啊！售電收入的千分之十這是確定的，它沒有任何模糊空間，後面反而是因為他們當時候報給環評小組委員會的時候，他們報的金額就已經低報了，所以他自己寫一個「約」，可是我們看的是前面耶！你增加上去是不是應該就要實質……你去看我們所有的回饋辦法，你看我們所有廠商對政府的回饋辦法，看的是前面，然後他多少的一個收入就要做多少的回饋，拜託我們政府不要再替他講話了，所有人民的眼睛都在看，從去年講到現在，置之不理，他有溝通什麼嗎？沒有！署長，他的惡質在哪裡？","再來，這也是我一直質疑的，第二期工程他沿用一期管線，在環評的時候，現在我們調出來，森霸根本完全沒有提供過去一期管線它的安全性，還有現在甚至是未來還要再沿用50年，沒有！環評裡面沒有，結果我們委員會也是可以眼睛閉著就給他通過了，我不知道他怎麼有那麼大的能耐，我要求給人民一個安全的管線，給人民一個安全的生活空間，結果居然是要你們經濟部能源署去要求森霸趕快去做事後、現在的管線檢測，你們現在不是都在做事後的管線檢測嗎？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，這個管測的檢測工作已經在今年完成，那……"],["陳委員亭妃：完成什麼？所以嘛！本來在環評的時候就要完成的，就要提供給環評的，結果沒有，我們把這件事情爆發之後，爆發之後要求你們……甚至在去年，署長，你還記不記得？我還特別在審你們預算的時候，做了一個附帶決議，對不對？請問那個附帶決議飛到哪裡去了？"],["游署長振偉：附帶決議裡面有兩項工作，一個是要確保這個安全，所以我們有要求森霸要做安全的管測的檢測，那檢測結果出來了，也委請工研院做第三方認證，認證的結果……"],["陳委員亭妃：要怎麼認證？官官相護要怎麼認證？誰能夠相信在這地底下的安全性？然後，本來一期你跟地方講的，他是只有要用到一期50年而已，你現在跟地方說沒有，連二期都要繼續沿用，請問在這之前他有辦過說明會嗎？沒有耶！沒有耶！"],["游署長振偉：所以說明會在委員的……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有耶！在之前都沒辦過說明會。"],["游署長振偉：之後我們在7月份有辦了一場說明會。"],["陳委員亭妃：那是什麼說明會你知道嗎？"],["游署長振偉：7月辦了一場說明會。"],["陳委員亭妃：那說明會我在現場，你知道7月份的說明會是什麼嗎？"],["游署長振偉：就針對這整個現場的……"],["陳委員亭妃：是什麼嗎？沒有！沒有！署長，我當下開完會，我馬上就打電話給你，我說他在辦什麼說明會，說明會都沒有提往後的檢測，都講說沒有問題、他們沒有問題，人民是要聽這些嗎？你明明跟地方說，一期只能用50年，當時候跟地方是這麼講，結果現在二期要沿用一期，你沒有跟地方說明，之前沒有，之前都沒有耶！是我們要求之後才7月份去開那一場，結果那一場是什麼會？是一個過水的，我不能接受這種過水的，他在應付誰？他要應付誰？應付你們嗎？還是應付我？陳亭妃沒有那麼好應付啦！"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，現在所有管線的檢測資料，我們都公開在該公司的網站上面讓大家了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：請問那個公開有什麼用？"],["游署長振偉：讓大家都了解……"],["陳委員亭妃：那個公開有什麼用？你整個程序都違反了！整個程序都違反了！整個程序都違反了！請問公開那個有什麼用？整個程序都違反了！你倒著走，你明明在二期要沿用一期管線的時候，你就要跟人民報告，你就要有這些檢測報告，結果你全部倒著走，然後全部都通過了，逼著人民要去接受，逼著人民要去承擔這個風險，請問為什麼？為什麼？錢他在賺耶！人民要承受這樣的痛苦、這樣的安全危機，為什麼？為什麼？","再來，第三點，我去年就跟你們說電業法裡面規定回饋金百分之三十，這個專案型電協金是年度電協金的百分之三十，這個是由業者親自來管控，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，電協金裡面百分之七十給地方政府，那個是定額的回饋，另外百分之三十是要組一個委員會來審查到底給誰來使用。"],["陳委員亭妃：不要再騙人了啦！什麼叫委員會？是業者去找的，你們裡面完全開放……"],["游署長振偉：沒有，跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：你說嘛！第五條寫得很清楚，你自己看嘛！這裡面有寫什麼？我如果沒有追，去年我如果沒有追，你知道這百分之三十是要給誰？就給業者可以專案使用喔！他就變成小金庫喔！這個小金庫變成他打擊異己的小金庫。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，這個專案型的裡面，我們會要求他有一個審議委員會，那……"],["陳委員亭妃：什麼叫審議委員會？"],["游署長振偉：委員會裡面的成員就包括我們地方政府……"],["陳委員亭妃：什麼叫審議委員會？這也是他們找的啊！"],["游署長振偉：沒有，就包括地方政府，像從以前的案子來看，臺南市政府派2位。"],["陳委員亭妃：就他們找的啊！在去年我就叫你們要重新修改，然後重新調整，甚至要把所有的問題點出來，到底這個專案型電協金要怎麼處理，到現在一年了，去年審預算的時候到今年，現在也要審預算了，你把我們當成什麼？我們的監督是什麼？然後森霸就一直在打我們的臉。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，審議委員會9位成員裡面，市府2位，然後由大學來推薦5位教授，他們森霸……"],["陳委員亭妃：誰能夠去把握說這個推薦到底是怎麼處理，我叫你們要把所有的制度弄出來也沒有，從去年到現在都沒有，都沒有！然後森霸一直在做這個小金庫的處理，我告訴你，他把地方當什麼？他把地方當什麼？他把地方當什麼？"],["游署長振偉：針對這個專案型的……"],["陳委員亭妃：署長！"],["游署長振偉：我們一定是公開透明的監督。"],["陳委員亭妃：署長！"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們從去年到現在，我今天跟你講，今天剛好是因為要審預算的一個業務報告，對不對？針對預算的，剛好去年到現在剛好一年，剛好一年！你們做了什麼？我這些問題都是當時候就提了，你要叫我怎麼通過你們的預算？我要怎麼通過你們的預算？我要怎麼通過你們的預算？"],["游署長振偉：委員要求的包括辦說明會、檢查，然後……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啊！你的說明會根本就是敷衍的，你就是敷衍的……"],["主席：請署長到我們陳委員辦公室去說明好不好？"],["陳委員亭妃：你完全就是敷衍的，你知道你們當時的說明會，我馬上就打給你了嘛！他以為是過水的嗎？這是什麼過水？地方反彈聲一堆，當時開這個說明會的時候，再跟你報告，開說明會的時候，所有地方反彈聲非常大，你有沒有聽到？他有跟你報告嗎？"],["游署長振偉：委員要求之後……"],["陳委員亭妃：反彈聲很大啊！"],["游署長振偉：我們要求他們檢測報告就公開上網路，直接公開。"],["陳委員亭妃：反彈聲很大啊！署長，一年前跟一年後，所有的問題都一樣，沒有改變，你們的預算要怎麼過嘛？"],["主席：署長，再去陳委員辦公室說明。","在賴士葆委員質詢完畢，我們休息。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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["李委員柏毅：我要講在我當天參加的時候有看到兩組YouTuber在現場做一些拍攝，後來我回去也看了一些計畫，這其實包含跟海委會、包含跟國艦國造的宣傳費用是有關的，我想我在這邊必須要來幫海委會講話，可以的話也要順便幫國防部講一下，就是很多國人沒有辦法透過電視，那他透過YouTuber其實也看到了這個國家的海巡、這個國家的海軍、這個國家的國防、這個國家的海巡防衛在為這個國家的人民做什麼事情，包含我們的海洋資源，包含我們的漁民，所以在這邊對於這些宣傳費用我先提出我會肯定並表達支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：那也希望海委會……因為當然要暴增……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我來的那一年是零。"],["李委員柏毅：我相信過去海巡署在還沒有納入海委會管理的時候，其實是中規中矩在巡弋、在防衛臺灣人民的安全跟生命，有了海委會，有多一點思考，包含海洋的保育等等，對於這些相關的宣傳我想會更全面。我也想請問管主委，在你來了之後，你對於海巡署過去的宣導跟現在做比較，你認為要加強還是可以再加強更多？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，在我來的時候，海巡署的媒宣是零預算。"],["李委員柏毅：沒有宣傳預算的海巡署。"],["管主任委員碧玲：然後它卻必須去招募我們年輕的弟兄姐妹。"],["李委員柏毅：不只是招募，也要讓國人知道海巡署在做什麼。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，那三安四海的部分我們也必須要做灰色地帶襲擾的因應，這些都非常需要讓海巡的作為能夠被看到，而且不只被我們國人看到。"],["李委員柏毅：其實我覺得我們的敵對國做得非常好，中國海警的大外宣很厲害。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，菲律賓也是，他們讓全世界都知道國家的處境，那海巡所為都是在第一線捍衛國安，他們的作為就是呈現出國家在海上霸權的籠罩之下國家的處境，在我們非常需要國際支持力量的時候，光是這個聲音過去也幾乎沒有辦法傳達出去。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝，我想在這邊表達宣傳的重要性，那也支持海委會繼續支持海巡署來做相關的宣傳。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員，我們會來很努力地說明。"],["李委員柏毅：海巡署的壓力非常大，在今年6月跟9月分別有兩個中國籍的男子乘快艇、橡皮艇從淡水跟林口偷渡來臺，當然我們有很多檢討的空間。"],["管主任委員碧玲：還不只這兩個案。"],["李委員柏毅：那檢討的空間裡面包含這些預算的支持，包含紅外線熱顯像儀偵蒐設備、包含無人機，還有包含活動力更強的這些新式艦艇，我覺得我們對海委會這邊的預算都要予以支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：海委會這邊的預算會暴增，我想也是必然，除了為了國家的安全之外，在2025年我們預計要交艦的數量，我們也都期待可以如期，包含4,000噸、1,000噸、600噸、100噸以上的這些相關的巡防艦，而且讓臺灣國艦國造的產業越來越健全，我想也要為了國人的安全予以支持，我就宣傳預算的以及這些艦艇的預算這兩個方面在這邊先表達支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們還是需要更多的大艦，跟委員報告，我們的艦艇是這樣，就是有一艘在當面上面執勤，那有一艘就必須備勤，另外一艘艦艇他們必須要輪休，另外還有一艘很可能正在維修……"],["李委員柏毅：所以為了國人相關的安全，我想我們在這邊必須要對國人的安全來表達支持，對於海委會提出來的這些，我們在這裡都會表達支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：海面上需要的量要乘以4才是我們足夠的量，所以我們還是需要有足夠的艦艇來捍衛治安與海上的治安。跟委員報告，在今天的數字裡面，我們查緝走私、毒品、偷渡等等數字的表現，在國內的六大查緝系統裡面，那個表現真的是很值得被肯定。"],["李委員柏毅：對，對海巡署的這些同仁們應該要給予相當的獎勵跟尊嚴，我們也會支持海委會提出來的這些方案。"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們真的非常的辛苦。"],["李委員柏毅：如果可以增加他們的薪資，我想由海巡署、海委會這邊提出來，我們國人會給予相當的尊重。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們最近登檢兩艘大陸的越界漁船，他們很大的鐵殼船都來撞我們，要用鐵條刺我們，我們的同仁在登檢的時候，還有一位同仁被鋼纜吊上去以後摔下來，萬一他是摔到海面，2艘船會夾到他。對於我們海巡同仁在執法的時候，真的是冒著生命危險這件事情，我一定要不斷、不斷地讓大家知道。"],["李委員柏毅：只靠你的臉書講、只靠你的嘴巴講，一定是不夠的，我們還是要做這些相關的宣傳。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是不夠的，而且這樣才能夠讓全民共同有一起來捍衛、一起來聯防這樣的意識。"],["李委員柏毅：最後還有一題，我希望海巡署來做回應。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["李委員柏毅：我們連續2年有編列要到美國海軍戰爭學院訓練的費用，但都還沒有成行，我希望明年度可以成行，你做得到嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：目前臺美的部分，中高階幹部的交流我們一直都是持續在做。"],["李委員柏毅：派員去訓練這件事情。"],["許副署長靜芝：訓練這件事情，我們今年一定、務必把它促成，明年的預算裡面只要編……"],["李委員柏毅：我們在預算裡面會全力捍衛，也希望我們海巡署可以做到派員到美國參加海巡訓練。"],["許副署長靜芝：是，沒有錯，謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：海巡加油，海委會加油！謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：非常謝謝委員給他們的鼓勵。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：感謝李柏毅委員的質詢。","我們請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-12","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","吳琪銘","羅智強","丁學忠","許宇甄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政\n府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及\n所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬\n單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金─ 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以來就發生的,因為我們知道考選部每年都辦國家考試,而國家考試很重要,一定要聆聘初體委員、月卷委員,但是呢,初體委員、月卷委員其實他們很辛苦,"},{"start":472.501,"end":473.502,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":492.495,"end":495.818,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部"},{"start":522.014,"end":535.694,"text":"跟委員報告我們正在檢討那我希望明年也就是如委員這個簡報所顯示的一旦我現在先穩定一下我們考選基金的那個財務健全的情況那明年我希望能夠提出針對這個的檢討"},{"start":537.716,"end":558.647,"text":"當然我覺得...我覺得太慢了,我希望你們可以盡快提出相關的演繹如果說考選基金沒有辦法...就是考選基金有沒有考試院可以比較像是司法院那樣它也可以每年捐助一筆費用給考選業務基金因為考選業務基金現在情況就是說如果說你的規模沒有辦法成長你沒有辦法提高考生的報名的考試"},{"start":564.471,"end":567.654,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":583.928,"end":603.989,"text":"是,在這個部分的話,我是希望說這個要盡快改善,這已經不能再拖,否則的話我想未來可能也找不到這個專家學者出題和月卷了,好嗎?好,OK,那接下來還有一個問題,這個部分可能是跟全序部有關,跟請示請假有關的問題。"},{"start":607.389,"end":610.651,"text":"關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":634.282,"end":635.223,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":664.002,"end":665.584,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管"},{"start":683.562,"end":684.822,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":709.068,"end":732.231,"text":"那基本上是沒有辦法滿足現在的這個進入到超高齡社會的需要這個很多的公務員他可能必須要去陪伴他的父母那甚至要更長時間的去照顧但是如果以目前留職停薪的這樣的一個規劃來說的話事實上這個子女這個會兩難他如果說申請留職停薪他就沒有收入來源"},{"start":732.991,"end":734.692,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":969,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時20分）謝謝主席，有請蔡主委，待會再請教施部長。"],["主席：好，先請蔡主委。"],["翁委員曉玲：蔡主委好。最近大家都非常關心勞動力發展署分署的一個公務員輕生問題，這也凸顯出公務機關裡的職場霸凌問題，本席看到你們所提出的報告書裡面，就保訓會所處理的公務人員保障案件受理案件數，其實是年年增長，從108年的897件，差不多900件，成長到113年的1,400件，成長幅度高達57%，由此可見，其實在公務機關裡面，可能不僅僅是職場霸凌問題，還有其他一些涉及到公務員權益的問題是越來越多。請教蔡主委，過去在保訓會您所處理的案子中，職場霸凌的案子多嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，我是9月到任的，但是委員真的看得很清楚，把我們整個的漲幅都算出來。目前主訴是職場霸凌的，今年總共有31件，這是到10月底為止，31件占1,406件的2%，這是它的趨勢，但如果從趨勢來看，去年職場霸凌的案件數，我印象中是18件，如果我們看它的成長趨勢，當然可以解讀的確是越來越多。"],["翁委員曉玲：本席用「職場霸凌」keyword到你們的保障事件決定書查詢系統查詢，110年到113年10月底，大概有164筆是跟職場霸凌有關的案件，當然，我想裡面可能有些是重複的，但這也反映出一件事情，就是職場霸凌問題在公務機關已經是過去常常會看到的事，只是因為沒有發生公務員因此輕生，事件沒有被爆發出來，所以大家會以為公務機關的職場霸凌問題不嚴重。事實上，我們看得出來，這個問題是嚴重的，不知道保訓會在這部分有沒有什麼作為？從你們過去累積處理這些案子以來，你們有沒有想要去解決，或是輔導公務員們未來在涉及職場霸凌這個議題的時候，要怎麼保護自己？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，第一個，我們現在的法制面應該要先補強；第二個，有關職場霸凌部分，我們在每年對外宣導時，會有一些案例分析，因為過去相關案例沒有那麼多，而這幾年案件數變得比較多，也引起大家的關切，當然也謝謝委員們的關注，讓很多公務人員發現原來他的那個現象就是職場霸凌，所以我們今年的宣導有加入一部分分析，但我們的確做得不夠，所以未來在宣導上，我們會更加大力道，因為在機關裡面，主要是人事人員會第一線接受到有關這部分的申訴，由他們先處理，我們也會提醒他在協助後端救濟時，要如何對申請人更有利，還有在我們的課程裡面……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解。後續相關職場霸凌的防治宣導，希望保訓會能夠多費心，要把這個重要性告訴相關公務員。其實人總早在108年時，就針對員工職場霸凌防治與處理建議作為發了一個函示，還訂定SOP作業流程，但我覺得很可惜，也許真的是各公務機關沒有太重視這件事情，尤其是在法制面上，始終沒有再進行相關的檢討修正，這部分也請保訓會之後要提出相關修法。","本席這邊還有另外一個比較實際的問題，就是剛剛鍾佳濱委員也有提到，公務人員保障法第十八條、第十九條及第二十一條，都有提到在公務的場合裡，各機關要提供公務人員良好的工作環境，對於公務人員執行職務要提供安全及衛生防護措施，特別是第二十一條對於公務人員因機關提供的安全及衛生防護措施有瑕疵，以致其生命、身體或健康受損，可以依國家賠償法請求賠償。請問主委，您認為這次勞動力發展署北分署的那位員工，是不是已經符合國家賠償法的請求？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為我們目前沒有看到來自於機關完整的調查報告，大部分訊息來自於媒體，所以這個部分，目前保訓會沒有辦法做具體的決定。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為保訓會重要的工作就是保障公務員的權益，所以我希望你們能夠仔細地多多了解整個案情，事實上，勞動部本身也發了新聞稿對這個事情加以說明，我認為員工的權益很重要，更何況他今天發生這樣不幸的事件，對家屬來講肯定是非常傷心，我認為勞動部這個機關本身在管理上一定有失職，還包含謝宜容作為勞發署北分署署長，也一定有公務員違法失職的情況，肯定符合構成國家賠償，針對這個部分，希望主委可以多多站在保護、保障我們公務員的權益上，儘量協助家屬請求國賠。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來第二個問題，我想請考選部劉部長，謝謝蔡主委。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長孟奇：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長你好。我有個問題請教你，其實這是長久以來就發生的問題，我們知道考選部每年都要辦國家考試，而國家考試很重要，一定要遴聘出題委員、閱卷委員，出題委員、閱卷委員其實很辛苦，畢竟我是從學界出來，曾經也出過題庫的考題，然後我身邊很多學者也都有出題經驗，但是您知道我們的閱卷費價格……"],["劉部長孟奇：100年後就沒有調過。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，100年後就沒有修正，其實是長期偏低……"],["劉部長孟奇：完全同意。"],["翁委員曉玲：出一個題目，還有閱卷，每一份可能才十幾元，然後出申論題，可能也還不到1,500元，這是要花很多時間的，現在專家學者出席一個會議場合，可以領的出席費大概都2,500元，整體來講，你們的命題費跟閱卷費費用偏低，考選部過去都沒有注意到這件事嗎？"],["劉部長孟奇：跟委員報告，我們正在檢討，也就誠如委員簡報上所顯示的，我們現在先穩定考選基金財務健全情況，希望明年能夠針對這個部分提出檢討，當然，我覺得……"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得太慢了，希望你們可以儘快提出相關研議，在考選基金部分，考試院有沒有可能比照司法院，每年捐助一筆費用給考選業務基金？考選業務基金現在的情況是，如果規模沒辦法成長，沒有辦法提高考生報名考試費用，那麼你的錢要從哪裡來？"],["劉部長孟奇：我們在爭取，我們還是努力爭取一下，看看行政院能不能如委員簡報所說，在這部分給予補助。不過基本上回到這個命題，就是針對命題費、閱卷費的部分是一定要檢討，我們希望儘快有一個改善。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望這部分要儘快改善，這已經不能再拖，否則的話，我想未來可能找不到專家學者出題和閱卷了。","接下來還有一個問題，這個部分可能是跟銓敘部有關，這是和請侍親假有關的問題。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想在這裡提出一個概念，我們知道現在對於育嬰假，在公教人員保險法、公務人員任用法當中都有規範，其實政府非常重視有關於育嬰留職停薪的假，同時也會給予一定的基本補助，可是現在臺灣已經進入超高齡社會，在超高齡社會裡面，其實子女……尤其是在中國社會裡面，子女奉養父母、孝順父母，尤其當父母出現疾病的時候，可能常常需要陪伴父母或帶去看病等等，所以我想對於侍親假，有沒有可能未來不僅是留職停薪，還有可能可以給予一定的基本補助，就是比照育嬰假的方式來處理？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我想這是一個很複雜的議題，因為大家都在保險的機制裡面，我們的公保法不是只適用於公務人員，留停的部分大概只有公務人員有，私校大概就不行，所以這是一個很複雜的議題。我知道委員很關心這些事情，就是現在社會改變，所以侍親也很重要，包括照顧小孩子等等，這部分目前技術上可能必須整體來考量，我想會後是不是可以有機會再跟委員報告這件事情？"],["翁委員曉玲：目前的家庭照顧假只有短短7天，如果超過的話，可能就要動用到自己的事假，基本上沒有辦法滿足現在進入到超高齡社會的需要，很多公務員可能必須要去陪伴他的父母，甚至要更長時間的去照顧，但是以目前留職停薪的規劃來說的話，事實上子女會兩難，如果申請留職停薪，他就沒有收入來源；但是如果沒有辦法照顧父母親的話，可能又會造成另外一個社會問題，所以本席認為你們要好好的從長計議、要研議這個議題。"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：不僅是侍親假，本席另外也有提出育孫假的部分，也請你們要一併考慮。"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：請你們一個月之內就本席剛剛所提出的問題提出一份分析報告，好嗎？"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢，部長請回。","接續邀請羅智強委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra 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Diligence承包商下包商的部分我們PPT我們來往下"},{"start":193.989,"end":219.644,"text":"這個第1會期就是一般民間在企業投資並公安長進的流程那我想過去我們還有一位國防外交的委員陳永康委員也非常重視這個東西他主要的目的就是看對方有沒有值得被投資他有沒有潛在的風險那還有他會針對他的這個過去的這些跟交往的細節就是說有沒有抵押、執押、債權的狀況那合約、條約、過去有沒有背信等等那除此之外"},{"start":220.624,"end":243.917,"text":"這是民間的部分那當然說還有輸送案的審閱這些全部都納入在考量的範圍可是如果說它是承包的是跟國防相關的跟國安單位相關的跟我們重大基礎建設相關的包含空港、海港、水、電、油等這些相關的話我們有沒有做完整的淨值調查來我們來下一頁"},{"start":244.963,"end":269.196,"text":"我們有沒有做完整的背景審查他承包的人員有沒有做完整的安全核可原則上我們至少說我知道的這些承包的廠商在重大的這些我們的基礎設施裡面其實是可以進出的範圍非常大所以我認為這個是必須由國安局來仔細來也是一樣也給我一個報告說現在的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":271.718,"end":295.95,"text":"現在我不是只是講說國防部的營區喔我不是講說這個國安局的營區而已喔因為我們現在要面臨的是全方位的這個是廣度跟深度跟以前不同的威脅連桃園機場大停電這是多麼大的事情雖然說這是2022年的事情但是這一個就是一個重要的警鐘就是說我們這些承包廠有沒有安全何可"},{"start":297.011,"end":324.031,"text":"有沒有 就算有 美國有喔美國有 但是承包商有一個很有名的一個承包的人員史諾頓他有絕密的這個安全的核可但是他把重要的機密還是帶到俄國了嘛他也不是只有WikiLeaks啊然後他現在在俄國持有這個庇護等等就算有都還沒有辦法來去避免這樣的狀況何況沒有 我們來下一個"},{"start":326.204,"end":354.157,"text":"國防部的包商僱用逃逸移工我們連包商的滴滴完之後他怎麼樣去聘用他的勞工他的勞工怎麼樣能夠進入營區也好或者是跟營區無關我記得上次國防部說沒有進入營區但是你就是承包嘛移民署還直衝營區逮六人所以這都是事實嘛這是事實就是說我們根本沒有一個完整的機制從國會到行政機關到承包商到下包商都沒有"},{"start":355.72,"end":377.512,"text":"過去沒有沒關係,現在把它補起來好不好?跟委員報告,就我們了解工程會事實上有做這方面的再做一些檢討。我們局裡來講針對委外的案件,對承包的人員要經我們營區,我們都有做安全查核。"},{"start":378.032,"end":406.989,"text":"很好 我這個肯定但是我的意思就是說如果全部都有就不會有這樣的狀況嘛大概就只有我講白了大概是國安局啦或者是情報單位或許有但是我剛剛講到的重大的海港、空港、水電、油等基礎建設包括鐵路、高鐵等等這些跟我們人民安全相關跟國家安全至關重要的東西必須要有一個相關的檢討所以我是希望國安局把你們建議報告也給我作為我們的立法依據我們也會跟法治局來討論一下好不好"},{"start":407.949,"end":434.168,"text":"好我們來準備報告就是這兩份就是我要因為除了法治局我們自己在討論之外我們自己辦公室之外我們也想聽聽看國安局的意見那沒關係就是不要不用文字很多不要虛的東西就是你們的看法是什麼甚至你們覺得不需要也沒關係也是作為我們的依據我是要檢討出來一個法治面的做法所以就算你們覺得不一樣也沒關係就把報告寫出來給我們給我們參考好我們下一頁"},{"start":436.28,"end":459.265,"text":"加上講到長臂管轄那這個國有器官的這件事情我們自己也有去看那我必須要談到長臂管轄的原因是因為他們沒有管轄權這個我們都知道但是中國確實是有能力來去影響各個國家的這個他們的僑民也好或者是當地的黑幫組織也好來去對我國的民眾"},{"start":460.225,"end":460.385,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":480.636,"end":500.324,"text":"在這邊你說用電郵電郵的方式電子郵件的方式來去做威嚇然後不讓我們去就像某種程度是要用很大的這種力量來去阻止台灣民眾來去接觸那其實他們跟中國發展的組織是有很強烈的關係比方說我們再看下一頁還有另外一個"},{"start":501.444,"end":528.664,"text":"臺灣的訪送中餐廳遭到波及這全部是跟在地組織在聯合的所以我是希望國安局、調查局把這些相關的情質做互相不管是在中國在各個駐外使館周遭的以他們駐外的使館為中心點嘛他們旁邊一定會有一些他們過去的這種派去中國的這種秘密警察派去國外的秘密警察都一定在附近嘛"},{"start":529.224,"end":538.428,"text":"所以我是希望說這個第一個情資要全面的共享在外面的情資要分享由我們駐外的辦事處分享給當地的政府警政單位之外國內的單位"},{"start":541.153,"end":568.538,"text":"這個都要把它列表嘛從台灣反送中這一連串的到下來國內的全部都要列表尊貴中共在我們不僅國外或國內尤其國內的滲透樣態事實上我們國安局一直都統合國安團隊都有在長壽而且有一些太陽而且都在我們這些國安團隊間會分享有異常的、違常的情勢發生我們就會請相關的單位依法偵辦"},{"start":569.58,"end":589.115,"text":"謝謝副市長這個報告在給我最後30秒我把我們地方的一個違安的問題趕快講一下我們剛剛講到那個在免稅店的黃金賊之亂這個事情我看我們地方也會有類似的狀況在很多總統副總統來到我們嘉義的行程的時候會有一些我不知道是他們是自稱是地方的網路媒體"},{"start":590.336,"end":617.598,"text":"地方的網絡媒體離總統副總統的距離都是這樣子兩三步然後全部的裝備都是仔細的在去錄影從總統副總統的面部特徵到所有特勤人員的面部特徵每一個都在錄同樣的偽裝成不要講偽裝好不好包裝成地方媒體的在所有的不管是憲兵退役的這種聯誼活動全部都到來去把每一個憲兵軍警的"},{"start":618.539,"end":640.572,"text":"面容特徵全部都錄影下來以一個地方的網路媒體來講我不覺得這有什麼我無法理解說為什麼要這樣子特別針對他的面部特徵針對特勤人員、針對軍、縣、警等等全部都有而且他們離總統、副總統的距離是非常近的所以我認為這個是我們必須要注意的"},{"start":641.738,"end":642.199,"text":"陳冠廷委員 各位請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":310,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時18分）謝謝召委，我們請副局長。"],["主席：國安局副局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：副局長早。我還是繼續上次的問題，我要繼續問下去，有關安全核可的部分。川普最近的內閣已經準備慢慢成形了，在內閣成形之前FBI希望對這些閣員做身家調查。就你所知，我國的閣員有沒有做相關的身家調查？"],["張副局長元斌：我們機關保防會由權責機關──調查局做安全的查核，有一千多個職務可以做這樣的查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：有一千多個職務有做相關的身家調查就對了？"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：由調查局做這樣的處理？"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：一樣是看他有沒有犯罪紀錄，是不是大概是這樣子？"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：其他包含他的這個……因為我看到美國的身家調查是很複雜的，包含你的交往狀況，你的醫療背景，看你有沒有濫用藥物、濫用酒精，還有你接觸的國外人員，還有你出入境的次數，不是只有在中國、港澳地區而已，包含他們也會把一些特殊敏感的地方都納入範圍，包含有些重要的可能是情資交換地，他們都會做完全的調查。除此之外，針對他的財務狀況還有銀行的交往狀況等全部都會有。就我所知，調查局做的大概主要是以犯罪紀錄為主，對於我們重要首長的規定來講的話，大概是以刑事為主，我還沒有看過哪一個部長或者是副首長的身家調查有做到像美國一樣縝密的作法，所以我希望國安局能夠給我一個簡單的報告來評估或者是比較各個國家對於這些重要政務任命人員的身家調查，我國跟其他國家的比較。我會這樣子要求是因為我也跟立法院法制局有討論過，他們對這個也非常有興趣，因為第一個我們是不相容的，就是說國安局跟調查局，跟其他各個部門的涉密單位，它的安全核可其實就是你做你的、我做我的，就是說可能調查局可以發一紙公文說他沒有問題，其實他接觸到的密等、他有沒有need to know等這些完全是沒有一個完整的核可機制。昨天我們在接待美國國會團的時候也有談到這樣的東西，我認為這是非常重要的議題，我覺得還必須要再講下去，所以我今天是希望國安局能夠給我們一個報告來做比較。"],["張副局長元斌：好，委員，我們會來整理。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝副局長。再來，講完政府官員之後，我們來講一下due-diligence（DD），承包商、下包商的部分，due-diligence就是一般民間在企業投資併購案常見的流程。過去我們還有一位國防及外交委員會的委員──陳永康委員也非常重視這個，主要目的是看對方有沒有值得被投資、有沒有潛在的風險，還有會針對他過去的交往細節，就是說有沒有抵押、質押、債權狀況、合約、條約及過去有沒有背信等等，這是民間的部分。除此之外，當然還有訴訟案的審閱等這些全部都納入在考量範圍，可是如果他承包的是跟國防相關的、跟國安單位相關的、跟重大基礎建設相關的，包含空港、海港、水、電、油等這些相關的話，你們有沒有做完整的盡職調查？你們有沒有做完整的背景審查？承包人員有沒有做完整的安全核可？原則上至少我知道的，這些承包廠商在這些重大的基礎設施裡面，其實可以進出的範圍非常大，所以我認為這個是必須由國安局仔細來……也是一樣給我一個報告說明現在的狀況是怎麼樣，現在我不只是講國防部的營區，也不只講國安局的營區而已，因為我們現在要面臨的是全方位的，廣度跟深度跟以前是不同的威脅，桃園機場大停電是多麼大的事情，雖然這是2022年的事情，但是這就是一個重要的警鐘，就是說我們這些承包廠商有沒有安全核可？就算有，美國有哦！美國雖然有但是承包商中有一個很有名的承包人員──史諾頓，他有絕密的安全核可，但是他還是把重要的機密帶到俄國了嘛！也不是只有在WikiLeaks，然後他現在在俄國接受庇護等等，就算有都還沒有辦法避免這樣的狀況，更何況沒有。","國防部的包商僱用逃逸移工，連包商的DD完之後，他怎麼樣去聘用他的勞工？他的勞工怎麼樣能夠進入營區也好，或者是跟營區無關，我記得上次國防部說沒有進入營區，但是你就是承包嘛！移民署還直衝營區逮6人，所以這都是事實嘛！這個事實就是我們根本沒有一個完整的機制，從國會到行政機關、到承包商、到下包商都沒有，過去沒有沒關係，現在把它補起來好不好？"],["張副局長元斌：好，跟委員報告，就我們了解，工程會事實上有做一些這方面的檢討，我們局裡來講，針對委外的案件，對於承包人員要進入我們營區，我們都有做安全查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，很好，我真的肯定，但是我的意思就是說如果全部都有就不會有這樣的狀況嘛！我講白了，大概是國安局或者是情報單位或許有，但是我剛剛講到重大的海港、空港、水、電、油等基礎建設，包含鐵路、高鐵等等，這些跟我們人民安全相關、跟國家安全至關重要的東西必須要有相關的檢討，所以我希望國安局把你們的建議報告也給我，作為我們的立法依據，我們也會跟法制局來討論一下，好不好？"],["張副局長元斌：好，我們來準備這個報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：就是這兩份，因為除了法制局和我們自己辦公室在討論之外，我們也想聽聽看國安局的意見，沒關係！不用文字很多，不要虛的東西，就是你們的看法是什麼，甚至你們覺得不需要也沒關係，也是作為我們的依據，我是要檢討出一個法制面的作法，所以就算你們覺得不需要也沒關係，就把報告寫出來給我們參考。"],["張副局長元斌：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：講到長臂管轄、「國有器官」的這件事情，我們自己也有去看，我必須要談到長臂管轄的原因是因為他們沒有管轄權，這個我們都知道，但是中國確實是有能力影響各個國家的僑民也好，或者是當地的黑幫組織也好，來對我國民眾會有一些安全上面的隱憂，比方說黑道替中國發展組織，比方說太陽聯盟，比方說統促黨，他們不需要真的派一個什麼便衣公安然後偽裝成臺灣民眾來給你威嚇，它直接跟在地組織聯合就好了，那就一樣可以做到重要的影響，在這邊你說用email電子郵件的方式來做威嚇，然後不讓我們去……像某種程度是用很大的力量來阻止臺灣民眾接觸，其實他們跟中國發展的組織是有很強烈的關係，比方說還有臺灣的反送中餐廳遭到波及，這全部是跟在地組織聯合，所以我希望國安局、調查局把這些相關的情資做互享，不管是在中國、在各個駐外使館周遭，他們以他們駐外的使館為中心點，旁邊一定會有一些他們過去派去國外的秘密警察，都一定在附近，所以我希望第一個，情資要全面的共享，在外面的情資要分享，由我們駐外的辦事處分享給當地的政府、警政單位之外，這個都要列表，從臺灣反送中這一連串下來，國內的全部都要列表。"],["張副局長元斌：針對中共不僅國外或國內，尤其國內的滲透樣態，事實上國安局一直都有統合國安團隊，都有在掌蒐，而且有一些態樣都在我們這些國安團隊間會分享，有異常、違常的情事發生，我們就會請相關的單位依法偵辦。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝副局長。報告召委，再給我最後30秒，我把地方的維安問題趕快講一下。我們剛才講到在免稅店的黃巾賊之亂這個事情，我們地方也會有類似的狀況，在很多總統、副總統來嘉義的行程時會有一些我不知道他們自稱是地方的網路媒體，地方的網路媒體離總統、副總統的距離都是這樣子兩、三步，然後全部裝備都是仔細的在錄影，從總統、副總統的面部特徵到所有特勤人員的面部特徵，每一個都在錄，同樣的，不要講偽裝，包裝成地方媒體在所有不管是憲兵、退役的這種聯誼活動全部都到，把每一個憲兵、軍警的面容特徵全部都錄影下來，以一個地方的網路媒體來講，我不覺得這有什麼，我認為我無法理解為什麼要這樣子特別針對他的面部特徵、針對特勤人員、針對軍、憲、警等等全部都有，而且他們離總統、副總統的距離是非常近的，所以我認為這個是我們必須要注意的，這裡是民主國家，有幾分資訊，我們就講幾分話，我把這個狀況提供給副局長。"],["張副局長元斌：謝謝委員提醒，我們會持續關注。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝召委。"],["主席：請國安局列入了解的情形，謝謝陳冠廷委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是林憶君召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","林憶君","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","林楚茵","羅智強"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、文化部、內政部警政署、大陸委員會報告「從『國有器官』在台播映困境看中\n國對台灣的長臂管轄策略，及我國的因應方案」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00011"}}},{"id":"157485","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157485","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a9f059176c1a92544bebea231f805397be54b9bd157483afa9f1cec6797e0d8ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:17:30 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每一個納稅人的每一分錢，不要做過多的浪費，讓我們海委會的業務能夠推動得更順暢。第二，我們針對媒體預算暴增的部分也跟主委來討論，就是這次總預算的審查，各界詬病的就是中央政府在媒體政策還有業務宣傳不斷地增加，特別你在114年整個直接飆漲到了將近15億……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有啦！"],["黃委員建賓：跟上一個年度比起來將近增加6億，我是說全中央啦！中央部分，整個中央的預算增加65%，加上附屬單位，我們整個中央總計在明年的預算是花26億在整個媒體宣傳上面，這些錢花在哪裡？效果在哪邊？我想這都不是很透明，其中我們海委會就被點名了。海委會這次被點名是媒體預算暴增的五大部會之一，113年的預算是404萬元，在114年的預算高達了1,609萬，增加1,205萬，暴增率高達3倍，我想真的有必要好好來檢討相關媒體宣傳的效果，包括觸及率、收視率等評估，我們絕對不能亂花人民的納稅錢。","第二個部分就是我們要成立海廢國家隊，就是海委會要籌組海洋廢棄物治理國家隊，布建印太區域海廢治理平台的發展計畫，總經費高達1億2,000萬。本席絕對支持政府挹注資源在清理海洋廢棄物，因為我們臺灣是一個四面環海的海洋國家，海洋保育工作做好是很重要的事情，問題是中央政府到現在成立多少的國家隊，成效在哪邊？從我們近期的打詐國家隊、雞蛋國家隊、快篩國家隊、口罩國家隊，這麼多國家隊，相關的政策跟預算的執行效能都引發很多的爭議。所以本席也希望中央務必要好好審視相關的預算跟資源，最重要的是能夠跨部會的合作，讓資源能夠共享，因為其實有時候我們常常看到每個部會都有編了錢，到後面發現大概在做同樣類似的事情，我想這樣子是疊床架屋、不斷增加預算。我們海廢國家隊的計畫、目標跟作法也應該要更加明確，不會一個國家一直成立一個一個的國家隊，然後效果看不出來，這很可惜。","另外就是在這一次預算裡面提到的出訪計畫，就是出訪的經費裡面，114年度出國計畫編列了729萬，相較於113年增加了35.1%，本席仔細地看一下明年度的出訪計畫裡面編了49萬7,000元，有一個名稱叫做以海洋運動與海域遊憩產業興盛之著名度假勝地及衝浪者的天堂，澳洲布里斯本及黃金海岸為參訪地區，這段是你們預算裡面寫的，那不是我自己加的，如果今天一般民眾看到這個名稱會不會覺得說怎麼這麼高興，要去度假勝地考察？"],["管主任委員碧玲：應該是我們國家要發展這種運動的投入……"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我知道這個意思，我是說名稱的部分，一般民眾看到的話會不會有這樣的誤解？我相信這個都是為了要……"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們的安全做得不錯，所以有要去觀摩這個部分。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，本席是善意提醒，我相信第一線人員非常非常辛苦，出國絕對都不是在玩，我們都是希望出國看到國外有好的政策，我們拿來臺灣這邊用嘛！對不對？所以……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，一定，像我們那個遙控救生圈就是去澳洲開會的時候看到以後引進來的，救了很多人，就是我只要遙控就可以用它去救人，這是在去澳洲開會時看到的。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，本席非常支持這個計畫，因為臺東其實這幾年都在辦國際衝浪賽，每年11月在臺東衝浪是很重要的一個活動，是國際性的比賽，那是不是有機會可以跟我們臺東在地政府來結合，讓我們的計畫更完善？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很歡迎，像基隆的國際帆船、高雄的國際帆船還有每年的遊艇展，尤其是我聽到臺東有這樣的衝浪，我們覺得非常的驚豔。"],["黃委員建賓：其實我們辦很多年了，臺東衝浪是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很希望市政府趕快來跟我們提案。"],["黃委員建賓：我們是吸引很多各國的surfer來到臺東，我覺得這個對地方的產業發展是很好的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，尤其我們有網頁可以讓大家知道今天這裡適不適合衝浪，所以我們也是在鼓勵，如果委員能夠轉達，也來轉達地方政府讓他們來提案，我們來支持。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委！主委，本席就是善意的提醒，有些東西可以跟地方來結合，包括整個海洋政策其實跟南島文化息息相關，我們有辦法跟原民會來合作舉辦這些活動，讓效果能夠更好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有。"],["黃委員建賓：這是本席的建議。主委，其實在海洋保育這邊就是海污的清理，相信主委還有印象，我們去年12月發生一個新聞，就是整個綠島沿岸有重污的事情，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：柚子湖的重油污染。"],["黃委員建賓：柚子湖那個污染不只是宜花東……"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們清到現在……"],["黃委員建賓：還在清、還在清。"],["管主任委員碧玲：還是有清不到的，真的是很生氣。"],["黃委員建賓：我也要感謝主委，上次我在3月質詢完之後，委員會這邊也有補助我們臺東縣政府一些預算來協助。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我也有去綠島看。"],["黃委員建賓：但是292萬絕對是不夠的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：希望縣政府可以增加它的工作項目，來跟我們申請，我們這主要都是以地方政府來申請的，我有要求這方面的預算一定要給得充足，所以有一定的計算，我有去了解。"],["黃委員建賓：臺東縣環保局絕對願意來合作這件事情，因為其實臺東整個海岸線從南到北169公里，再加上蘭嶼跟綠島這兩個離島，我們等於是全臺灣海岸線最長的縣市。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，最近有要驗收。"],["黃委員建賓：既然身為海洋國家，對海洋的保育其實相對很重要，因為我們有非常豐富的海洋資源，這個海污不但影響整個海洋生態，而且影響到我們整個景觀，像我們綠島那個貝殼沙海岸，我想都是很好的海洋觀光資源，所以在這部分希望委員會這邊也能夠加強在這部分的協助。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，臺東的部分已經清理完，我們最近辦驗收會付款，如果有更多的工項需要做，趕快跟我們海保署來提案。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委。主委，剩下的部分在我們審查預算的時候本席會提到。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委今天的回應。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：我想再一次重申，臺灣是一個四面環海的國家，我們應該是要往海去發展，然後維護我們海洋的生態跟資源，我覺得這個部分是我們未來10年、20年都要加強的地方。"],["管主任委員碧玲：尤其臺東有美麗的海岸，還有海洋的資源，我們希望能夠幫忙更多。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：感謝黃建賓委員的質詢，說實在的，聽了很感心，就是要把臺灣的海洋顧好。","我們再來請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-12","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","吳琪銘","羅智強","丁學忠","許宇甄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政\n府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及\n所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬\n單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金─ 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"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在的負債比例已經九成五了，其實是滿高的，而我們現在公司的淨值，如果讓我們持續累積虧損，事實上我們是一個依照公司法公開發行，雖然沒有上市，但是一個有公開發行的公司，如果我們的資產跟負債，資產不敵負債，依照法令的規範，會面臨解散問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，目前資產多少，負債多少？"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在資產淨值大概2,000億上下，不到2,000億。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以整個資產淨值大概只剩兩千多億，我看到的數字大概是這樣子，所以如果這一次的追加預算沒有過、撥補沒有過，台電還是要繼續往下走嘛，可是你們要怎麼樣提高你們的經營績效，其實我們也非常好奇，我這邊提幾個部分給你們參考一下，台電的萬里水力發電計畫，董事長知道這個案子吧？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：目前進行怎麼樣？"],["曾董事長文生：這個部分事實上在環評也遇到了一些地方的爭議，包括在地的不同部落，他們對於開發計畫有不同意見，所以我們還需要溝通。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這見微知著啦，因為台電萬里計畫坦白說不是一個很大的計畫，可是已經5年了，5年之後還在做地方的溝通，在地方溝通當中我們也看到了，在萬榮村這個部分，最主要的建設在這個地方，可是這個地方不溝通，你們去外面找了其他三個村莊，變成三比一的狀態就覺得好像可以過，可是萬榮村沒有買這個單，所以你們現在開始進行很多的訴訟，對不對？現在訴訟還在進行不是嗎？董事長請做說明。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，其實地方溝通常常都會有這樣子的狀況，如果有牽涉到幾個不同的部落就會有不同的意見，我覺得訴訟這個部分，我要講的是，嚴格來講這是對於一些進行過程取得同意是不是有完整的程序，大部分都是這種類型的問題，但站在台電的立場充分溝通，這個已經是台電，以及不管哪一類型的電源開發都在進行的工作，那委員提到的萬里，我們會去討論……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，說這樣說，可是這5年還在這個進度，我覺得台電顯然在整個經營管理當中有一些疏失，必須要更積極。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，像協和已經環評經過了非常多年，我們就是努力在跟社會溝通，所以請委員體諒，台電有非常多電力開發的計畫其實不是那麼容易，也不是台電說要做就可以做。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我很體諒，我覺得大家都需要用電，我們一定希望台電的體質能夠好，經營績效能夠好，政策能夠正確，現在就是因為有很多的經營績效沒有辦法好，最主要是因為它要跟錯誤的政策去買單。","我再問一個部分，針對台電目前閒置的資產有多少？董事長，台電目前閒置的資產有多少？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，假設你說我們台電公司的發電如果不夠，我們稼動率一定都非常高，其實就不會有閒置資產。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是目前看到立法院預算中心提到的，台電公司114年度預算當中的資產負債表表示，你們的土地閒置資產其實是很高的。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，關於預算中心的這個報告，我上次在經濟委員會有稍微回答了一下，我們是從127公頃降到現在剩下27公頃，其實這幾年來台電大幅改善土地閒置，讓它活化利用，有一些變電站經過我們的溝通，地方政府也支持，讓我們可以開始興建，也有電廠用地可以開始興建，就會讓這個閒置減少，我們是從127公頃……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，不過因為我看到的是台電公司沒有使用，或者沒有按照原訂用途使用的土地面積，且逾原訂最後使用期限20年以上的土地面積占比超過15%。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，這裡面有15%擺了20年，大部分都是變電所，變電所要在地方蓋就會遇到很多問題，最近我們的變電所也因應地方政府的需要把它變成了住宅用地，我們也遇到這樣子的問題……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分我要帶出來的就是，新竹市這邊有一個很重要的變電所，我到時會找台電特別來做溝通，在園區那邊的變電所。"],["曾董事長文生：區處旁邊那一個。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是、是，它到時候要怎麼做後續的開發，我再請董事長到本辦公室來做溝通。","最後我想特別問一個狀態，因為最近霸凌的事情太多了，台電簡單隨便一找就大概有好幾個案子，其中一個就是北區台電的職場霸凌，針對盛經理的部分，董事長知道這個案子嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：這是2019年的事，也就是5年前的事。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在都還是在持續。最近還有一個狀態，就是台電女課長拿鐮刀砍一個將調職員工的桌椅，你知道這案子嗎？後來他被罰5,000塊，然後他是拿鐮刀砍喔！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，那個行為其實是損害財物，我們會來做相關的調查，您提到的這個案子，我們也會依照程序來辦，因為狀況是這樣的，台電公司有3萬個員工，我們最重要就是要讓這樣子的文化不存在，我們也希望有一定程度合理的申訴管道。以台電來講，如果真的遇到主管跟員工之間有摩擦等等的事件，如果可以合理調整工作單位，我們也會加速來進行；至於員工是不是真的受到霸凌，我們會交給委員會來辦，這也不是董事長能決定的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：關於職場霸凌，我們希望台電這邊能夠好好管，因為台電對於整個民生來說是重要的，所以針對整個撥補預算，我覺得可能還需要做更多的溝通跟討論。"],["曾董事長文生：要請委員多多支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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11月20號同樣地點在這裡質詢你"},{"start":68.618,"end":96.059,"text":"部長也跟我說,有,我們一定會妥善準備,陶吉很有經驗。我出發前提醒,結果反國後者,這結果呢?黃金之亂。還不是只有黃金之亂而已。沿路的動線是亂七八糟。人潮遠遠超過於你們的預期。我之前就提醒你了,一定會萬人空巷。會很熱情地去接機。"},{"start":97.81,"end":126.902,"text":"那剛剛部長回答其他委員說來要求陶基檢討出來檢討第二個究責這個管理機制剛剛其他委員也說太爛了第二個黃金之亂我們看到剛剛剛剛即時新聞彩萌又發了一個聲明稿他要捐三千萬出來分五年要援助資助這個偏鄉青少年的棒球發展"},{"start":127.981,"end":144.784,"text":"那部長這個你說要對採盲要懲處要怎麼懲處我是不是先請部長你自己深自檢討我們淘機這樣子的一個表現幾分不要說不及格比不及格還不及格啊"},{"start":145.407,"end":165.921,"text":"報告委員您說不及格齁那應該就是大家對於這件事情是不滿意的啦齁那這件事情呢其實淘機公司我當時也有要求一定要跟體育署還有就是職棒聯盟這邊協調好協商好整個這個回國之後的整個動線的規劃好你這個你上次有提到沒錯好那我問淘機嘛你們開會了沒"},{"start":167.162,"end":193.783,"text":"你們事前有沒有開會?報告委員,我想相關的積極活動除了事前的協調、規劃甚至每一個定點哪一些位置比如說拍照地點在哪裡哪些單位那下一個環節是哪些單位要負責?你們開了幾次會?現刊都有來現刊幾次?現刊應該有兩次現刊兩次跟哪些單位一起合作現刊?"},{"start":194.522,"end":201.626,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":216.073,"end":229.181,"text":"甚至呢也沒有預期到光是在你們管制區裡面的這些免稅店的人員他都可以在裡面跑來跑過去可以蹭來蹭過去甚至可以馬上衝到副總統的席位這何等的離譜的事啊你還說你們有現勘管制區內你都管制不了了你都管理不了了"},{"start":241.544,"end":260.195,"text":"不是嗎?那我們從媒體的報導裡面就可以看得很清楚因為呢幾乎人人包括來接機的人人一支手機都在直播我們看現場台灣隊的隊長他還要到處的在找他的老婆跟小孩跑到哪裡去了你怎麼處理成這個樣子啊你說兩次現刊來誰主持的"},{"start":272.213,"end":282.622,"text":"誰主持的?包委員這個是各單位一起共同來現刊哪些單位派了誰來?成績夠高嗎?有經驗嗎?哪些單位?你剛跟我講體育署是誰來?你們淘機是誰去?那國安人員、特勤人員包括航警局又是誰去?包委員系部的部分可能我們...所以你也不知道?"},{"start":299.69,"end":304.073,"text":"需要另外再整理再提供所以你也不知道?所以現堪不是你去嘛對不對?這麼重要的我事前提醒你了部長也在這個會議室裡面你們董事長也在這個會議室裡面告訴大家我們準備好了我們非常有經驗就總經理你連現堪都不是你去啊"},{"start":325.885,"end":335.733,"text":"裡面哪些單位參與現刊包括動線包括哪一個是拍照點包括哪一個是歡迎點包括怎樣怎樣怎樣你都不知道"},{"start":339.635,"end":355.502,"text":"包委員我們是有相關的規劃剛剛所提到這些的點總經理部長你聽看如果你有相關的規劃你的規劃配套是完是完善的是完整的你今天會出那麼大的皮肉嗎跟那麼離譜的事嗎整個淘機都是人欸我之前就提醒過你了我本來今天真的是覺得很"},{"start":368.818,"end":390.814,"text":"桃機是我們的門面欸桃機這個確實是要檢討啦齁那整個過程當中他們也是在11月22號有收到體育署的來函希望哪裡做照相區哪裡做等候區那哪裡要做接駁巴士區都有規劃桃機是誰在管真正桃機的管理者叫桃機公司是交通部"},{"start":392.694,"end":421.328,"text":"你說體育署它也是主責單位體育署是負責把台灣隊帶回來然後呢體育署可能聯絡總統府的副總統要來接機我們教育部體育署要好好的來安排那問題是在地最了解機場最知道機場的動線最知道機場的區域該怎麼配置最知道接機區域到底有多大是誰"},{"start":422.962,"end":441.619,"text":"機場公司欸是機場公司欸而且他剛剛回答其他委員說有啦我們有跟免稅店都有事先約束過啦要求他們要怎樣怎樣阿阿現在都沒有照你預定的計畫在做欸"},{"start":443.737,"end":444.978,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":458.1,"end":483.991,"text":"大家當然要共同承擔責任但是您剛剛所提到那些懲處確實不在交通部那也不是交通部來負責我必須要說的是彩萌這間公司沒有照原本的規劃跟預定的地點自己未經同意出來做拍照的動作並且他們未經同意拉了廣告布條這些都是非常錯誤的動作那這個部分我也要求淘氣公司必須對彩萌公司來做懲罰做懲處甚至是做裁罰"},{"start":486.472,"end":512.842,"text":"這個部分一定都會做那淘機公司內部要不要檢討當然要檢討檢討完之後到底誰該負責或者是應該做什麼樣的懲處後續一定要做結論我是再一次提醒部長啦淘機的管理或是淘機的公司治理文化一件又一件一次又一次啦要不要下定決心好好的大刀闊斧的"},{"start":514.144,"end":529.578,"text":"改革、革新這個當然是部長怎麼跟陶基好好的來討論啦但是呢今天這一次台灣隊回國我再強調一次喔不是只有黃金之亂"},{"start":531.099,"end":548.773,"text":"現在大家都聚焦在一個黃金之亂可是部長你再從頭回想從台灣隊一下機進管制區到管制區之外沿途的動線包括連出關都有問題還有到了"},{"start":553.636,"end":563.87,"text":"繼機區的時候滿滿都是人那整個的管理整個的動線的一個妥善的配套措施我們真的都沒有看到這個是不應該非常不應該而且我剛剛講的"},{"start":570.029,"end":596.284,"text":"我事先提醒你們告訴我要開會告訴我要協調結果問了沒有開會沒有協調只有兩次現勘兩次現勘是哪些單位來現勘也還講不清楚哪些人來參與現勘也講不清楚那我當然知道就淘機或者是交通部的立場你不可能去管到國安特勤人員但是你們明知道副總統要來"},{"start":597.805,"end":623.021,"text":"有國安特勤的一個維安動線你們就應該要好好的協調跟反映你看你讓我們管制區裡面的人原來誰都可以來蹭誰都可以來擠C位誰都你自己看照片就好了沿途都是不管是入出境的其他我們台灣的國人也好或者是外國觀光客也好"},{"start":624.226,"end":645.794,"text":"很多你們完全沒有管制完全沒有管理完全沒有動線所謂的配套我記得媒體還有曾經拿過日本隊回日本他們的動線是如何的暢通而且呢是有個人空間的又對比到台灣隊回來台灣的桃園機場台灣隊的球員進來回國的時候"},{"start":653.168,"end":665.283,"text":"我本來應該是非常光榮的回國沒錯啦可是那個動線跟混亂啊讓人家覺得是不是在逃難啊對不對本來是一件歡欣國舞舉國歡騰的一件事啊怎麼會把台灣對我們世界冠軍的台灣對回國搞成這個樣子"},{"start":673.255,"end":684.649,"text":"雖然我們還是很高興台灣奪得世界冠軍啊但是我們真的拜託我們部長要好好的處理這件事啊該檢討要檢討該究責要究責我拜託請"},{"start":688.61,"end":715.901,"text":"三天內可不可以有一個檢討報告讓國人知道三天內好不好我們希望你是痛定思痛的檢討你是痛定思痛的去把所有該做的配套還有所有該做的應該都要做到位的通通要檢討好不好拜託這個是國人期待也是要對國人交代當然謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":346,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時10分）謝謝召委素月委員。我們請部長，還有桃機。"],["主席：請陳部長、桃機總經理。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長，我用很沉重的心情來進行今天的質詢。你記不記得在臺灣隊要出發之前我就提醒過你？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：我們預期臺灣隊一定可以贏；而贏了，自然舉國歡騰。然後我還問你，有沒有責成桃機好好妥善規劃臺灣隊回國的接機動線跟配套？那時候桃機董事長跟總經理同樣站在你旁邊，還跟我說「已經準備好了，有萬全的準備，我們非常有經驗，一定會趕快來開會協調，絕對萬無一失。」部長還記得嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我記得。"],["何委員欣純：11月20日，我在同樣地點質詢你，你也跟我說「有，一定會妥善準備，桃機很有經驗」，我出發前還提醒。結果返國後發生了黃巾之亂！還不是只有黃巾之亂而已，沿路動線亂七八糟，人潮遠遠超過於你們的預期！我之前就提醒你了，一定會萬人空巷，大家會很熱情去接機。剛剛部長回答其他委員說，要求桃機檢討，但除了檢討外，第二個就是究責！剛剛其他委員也說管理機制太爛了！","其次，針對黃巾之亂，這是剛剛的即時新聞，采盟又發了一個聲明稿說要捐3,000萬，分五年資助偏鄉青少年棒球發展。部長，你說要對采盟懲處，請問要怎麼懲處？我要先請部長自己深自檢討，這次桃機這樣的表現，幾分？不要說不及格，我認為比不及格還不及格！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您說不及格，所以大家對於這件事情應該是不滿意的！其實我當時也有要求桃機公司一定要跟體育署及職棒聯盟協調好、協商好整個回國之後的動線規劃……"],["何委員欣純：好，這個你上次有提到，沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：對，確實……"],["何委員欣純：那我就要問桃機，你們開會了沒？你們事前有沒有開會？"],["范總經理孝倫：是，報告委員，我想相關的接機活動，除了事前的協調規劃，甚至每一個定點、哪一些位置，比如說拍照地點在哪裡、哪些單位，下一個環節是哪些單位要負責，這個事前都有……"],["何委員欣純：你們開了幾次會？"],["范總經理孝倫：現勘都有來……"],["何委員欣純：現勘幾次？"],["范總經理孝倫：現勘應該有兩次。"],["何委員欣純：現勘兩次？跟哪些單位一起合作現勘？"],["范總經理孝倫：就是我們場內的有關單位，還有包含像體育署，甚至因為副總統要來，所以也包含特勤單位。"],["何委員欣純：如果有兩次的現勘，因為有兩次現勘，所以沒有開其他的協調會，所以沒有把其他可能有的因應狀況事前沙盤演練，甚至也沒有預期到，光是在你們管制區裡面的這些免稅店的人員，他都可以在裡面跑來跑過去，可以蹭來蹭去，甚至可以馬上衝到副總統的C位，這是何等離譜的事啊！你還說你們有現勘，管制區內你都管制不了了，你都管理不了了，不是嗎？","來，我們從媒體的報導裡面就可以看得很清楚，因為幾乎人人，包括來接機的人，人人一支手機都在直播，我們看到現場，臺灣隊的隊長，他還要到處在找他的老婆跟小孩跑到哪裡去了，你怎麼處理成這個樣子啊！你說兩次現勘，誰主持的？誰主持的？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，這個是各單位一起共同來現勘啦。"],["何委員欣純：誰主持啊？各單位一起來現勘，哪些單位派了誰來？層級夠高嗎？有經驗嗎？哪些單位？你剛剛跟我講體育署是誰來？你們桃機是誰去？國安人員、特勤人員，包括航警局又是誰去？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，細部的部分可能我們……"],["何委員欣純：所以你也不知道？"],["范總經理孝倫：需要另外再整理、再提供。"],["何委員欣純：所以你也不知道，所以現勘不是你去嘛，對不對？"],["范總經理孝倫：是。"],["何委員欣純：這麼重要的事情，我事前也提醒你了，部長也在這個會議室裡面拍胸脯保證說沒問題，你們董事長也在這個會議室裡面告訴大家「我們準備好了，我們非常有經驗」，結果總經理，你連現勘都不是你去啊，你連哪些單位參與現勘，包括動線，包括哪一個是拍照點，包括哪一個是歡迎點，包括怎樣、怎樣、怎樣，你都不知道。"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，我們是有相關的規劃，剛剛所提到這些的點……"],["何委員欣純：總經理！部長，你聽看看，如果你有相關的規劃，你的規劃配套是完善的、是完整的，你今天會出那麼大的紕漏跟那麼離譜的事嗎？整個桃機都是人耶！我之前就提醒過你了，我本來今天真的是覺得很……","唉！桃機是我們的門面耶。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，桃機這一次確實是要檢討啦，整個過程當中，他們也在11月22號有收到體育署的來函，希望哪裡做照相區、哪裡做等候區、哪裡要做接駁巴士區都有規劃……"],["何委員欣純：部長，我請問你，桃機是誰在管？桃機的管理者叫桃機公司，是交通部！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：你說體育署也是主責單位，但體育署是負責把臺灣隊帶回來，然後體育署可能聯絡總統府，副總統要來接機，我們教育部體育署要好好的來安排，但問題是，在地最了解機場，最知道機場的動線，最知道機場的區域該怎麼配置，最知道接機區到底有多大的是誰？機場公司耶，是機場公司耶！而且他剛剛回答其他委員說「有啦，我們有跟免稅店都有事先約束過，要求他們要怎樣、怎樣」，但現在都沒有照你預定的計畫在做耶，你說懲處，你能怎麼懲處？你能懲處航警局嗎？你能懲處國安特勤人員嗎？你能懲處體育署嗎？你們要共同承擔責任嗎？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：大家當然要共同承擔責任，但是您剛剛所提到那些懲處確實不在交通部，那也不是交通部來負責……"],["何委員欣純：那你要去反映啊。"],["陳部長世凱：但我必須要說的是，采盟這間公司沒有照原本的規劃跟預定的地點，自己未經同意出來做拍照的動作，並且他們未經同意拉了廣告布條，這些都是非常錯誤的動作，這個部分我也要求桃機公司必須對采盟公司來做懲罰、做懲處，甚至是做裁罰，這個部分一定都會做。至於桃機公司內部要不要檢討，當然要檢討！檢討完之後到底誰該負責，或者是應該做什麼樣的懲處，後續一定要做結論。"],["何委員欣純：我是再次提醒部長啦，桃機的管理或是桃機的公司治理文化，一件又一件、一次又一次啦，要不要下定決心，好好的大刀闊斧去做改革、革新，這個當然是部長怎麼跟桃機好好的來討論啦，但是呢，今天這一次臺灣隊回國，我再強調一次，不是只有黃巾之亂，現在大家都聚焦在一個黃巾之亂，可是部長你再從頭回想，從臺灣隊一下機進管制區，到管制區之外，沿途的動線，包括連出關都有問題，還有到了接機區的時候，滿滿都是人，整個管理、整個動線的妥善配套措施，我們真的都沒有看到！這個是不應該，非常不應該！而且我剛剛講了，我事先提醒過，你們告訴我有要開會，告訴我要協調，結果我問了，沒有開會，沒有協調，只有兩次現勘，兩次現勘是哪些單位來現勘，也還講不清楚！哪些人來參與現勘，也講不清楚！我當然知道，就桃機或者交通部的立場，你不可能去管到國安特勤人員，但是你們明知道副總統要來，有國安特勤的維安動線，你們就應該要好好的協調跟反映。你看你讓我們管制區裡面的人，原來誰都可以來蹭，誰都可以來擠C位，誰都……","你自己看照片就好了，沿途都是，不管是入出境的其他我們臺灣的國人也好，或者是外國觀光客也好，很多你們完全沒有管制，完全沒有管理，完全沒有動線，也沒有所謂的配套。我記得媒體還曾經報導過日本隊回日本，他們的動線是如何的暢通，而且是有個人空間的，又對比到臺灣隊回來臺灣的桃園機場，臺灣隊的球員回國的時候，本來應該是非常光榮的回國沒錯啦，可是那個動線跟混亂，讓人家覺得是不是在逃難啊，對不對？本來是歡欣鼓舞、舉國歡騰的一件事，怎麼會把臺灣隊，世界冠軍的臺灣隊回國搞成這個樣子？雖然我們還是很高興臺灣奪得世界冠軍，但是我們真的拜託部長要好好的處理這件事，該檢討就要檢討，該究責就要究責，我拜託請你在三天內可不可以有一個檢討報告讓國人知道。"],["陳部長世凱：是，三天之內提出檢討報告給委員。"],["何委員欣純：三天內，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：我們希望你是痛定思痛的檢討，你是痛定思痛的去把所有該做的配套，還有所有該做的應該都要做到位的，統統要檢討，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：拜託！這個是國人的期待，也是要對國人交代。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","本席在這邊宣告：等一下在本席質詢完之後要處理臨時提案，處理臨時提案後休息10分鐘，謝謝。"],["主席（何委員欣純代）：接下來質詢的是陳素月召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157482","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157482","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a2822ace2a46b623544e208bd6b14da82e54b9bd157483afa20fe99b0e8b33c245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"09:58:55 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谷、日本雜荒、日本岡山、日本沖繩、韓國釜山、韓國首爾金浦"},{"start":81.145,"end":109.437,"text":"馬來西亞沙巴越南復國島馬祖南竿這個馬祖南竿是暴擊的所以就是說目前我們已經成功有爭取這些這個當然要謝謝交通部跟民航局的協助那右邊這邊其實也讓部長簡單看一下這一段時間的一個流程尤其是新加坡沖繩在疫情之後就也都恢復了那現在我們又加碼就是岡山跟航板熊本那岡山也已經啟航了"},{"start":110.497,"end":134.806,"text":"則說我自己親自去做就是那個虎航從岡山飛高雄算是高雄岡山的首航以及高雄到富國島的首航那這個我都親自去做這個首航那也覺得說我們真的是很多我們高雄在地的需求能夠一一的滿足感謝委員努力爭取那當然我們也謝謝交通部跟民航局的協助"},{"start":135.766,"end":152.712,"text":"再來就是說其實這個過程也讓部長知道一下其實我們真的是奔走了很多的航空公司包括華航、長榮、星宇、虎航、華信、韓亞、濟州航空、日本航空、新加坡航空、庫航等等的那這些其實我們一一去問"},{"start":154.193,"end":158.316,"text":"adequate to the current situation and the future."},{"start":176.269,"end":200.127,"text":"包括那邊軍中的弟兄的搭機往返的問題等等的這個都必須去溝通所以目前就是油的問題部長解決了嗎?報告委員目前還在協調當中那我們希望中油公司能夠協助不過中油公司是經濟部所轄那我們也盡量跟他們溝通看可不可以協助這個部分有沒有結果了?"},{"start":200.795,"end":207.639,"text":"目前還我這邊所知道還沒有結果還沒有結果希望盡快啦我知道就是他們包括這個"},{"start":208.882,"end":210.263,"text":"對航空公司來說一定要確定做到那裡有辦法加油。"},{"start":234.073,"end":234.933,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":250.7,"end":253.083,"text":"adequate to the current situation."},{"start":267.159,"end":273.504,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":291.738,"end":318.856,"text":"油罐車等等的就是這些保險的問題人員的問題解決之後可能將來我們要做固定航班的機會就比較大對這是先決條件對還有再來就是說跟珀瑤再報告一下就是說我們其實現在我那一天有去拜訪另外一家航空公司他們剛民航局剛給他們執照他們有意願就是馬祖到高雄因為他們這個是19人座20人座左右的"},{"start":319.216,"end":324.42,"text":"adequate to be approved by the Minister."},{"start":335.507,"end":355.921,"text":"還可以再考量的另外一個方案。還有一個方案其實很重要就是我們高雄如果晚上桌11點的飛機要飛到美國或歐洲。事實上我從高雄你知道我要坐捷運、坐計程車、坐高鐵、然後再坐桃捷。然後這樣拖了幾年。拖了幾年又多一架行李。"},{"start":358.183,"end":370.331,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度"},{"start":387.603,"end":392.205,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":416.596,"end":444.903,"text":"好那再來就是說我們希望說其實過去10條未來我們還希望再10條那這個還需要再努力啊就是說我們希望說未來再爭取我們的邦交國柏流、印尼雅加達、菲律賓宿霧、泰國普吉島然後長城的歐美澳、日本羽田、仙台、雄本、高松以及韓國濟州等等的那這些其實我有拜訪了一些航空公司也跟部長報告一下說目前其實我們雜訪"},{"start":446.243,"end":456.546,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":474.039,"end":494.995,"text":"adequate 這一條是從臺北飛的啦當然我們會爭取臺北可以飛更多的歐洲航線、歐美航線這樣子我們臺北可以飛當然將來我們高雄才更有機會所以你可以看這個布拉格當時是交通部長跟我反應的時候我跟他提出這個建議他當時給我說這是不可能的你知道嗎"},{"start":496.036,"end":521.153,"text":"但是我們一再的努力,欸,完成了。所以我覺得我們這是不可能,我們還是要去努力變成,把那個impossible那個in 踢掉就變成possible。好,那那個高雄到帛琉其實這是我們幫交過,我們齊邁市長很喜歡潛水。所以那個去帛琉那邊潛水其實也是很好的事。所以我們這個全球的航線,我希望說部長能夠再加強。"},{"start":522.499,"end":523.6,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":548.829,"end":567.621,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審"},{"start":577.427,"end":604.49,"text":"所以這個我們把桃園機場的航線能夠增幣更多的航班航線將來我們高雄當然機會就更大我們分到前一頁那個雅加達我再特別講一下雅加達現在觀光署已經到雅加達去設辦事處對不對那印尼這個兩億多的人口我們臺北有飛我們高雄其實高雄飛雅加達飛印尼的東南亞的其實人口數都相當多"},{"start":605.404,"end":616.468,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審"},{"start":633.675,"end":635.076,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":650.649,"end":663.26,"text":"我希望可以努力所以就是整個我們全球的航線我們高雄的航線希望說部長可以多重視盡力來提早完成我們一起努力謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":276,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（9時58分）好，謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長，您知道今天是高雄飛馬祖最後一班的包機嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不會是最後一班，我們應該會讓它飛到元旦。"],["許委員智傑：原來是11月6號到今天。"],["陳部長世凱：對，原來，但因為委員非常關心，所以我們讓它可以到元旦。"],["許委員智傑：所以，我們確定會飛到元旦？"],["陳部長世凱：我們已經有請觀光署協助，針對航班的部分來做補助。"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，我只要知道結果，結果就是會繼續飛，會飛到元旦？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們跟連江縣政府一起合作，我們讓它飛到元旦假期。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝部長，其實我們高雄真的是希望航線可以一再的再來努力。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以部長之前我在要求的時候，當時你可能還沒當部長，所以讓部長複習一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["許委員智傑：我們這10條航線從疫情過後，我們就要求321，就是北海道札幌、沖繩、新加坡這三條航線，現在也陸陸續續都開飛，目前有飛的讓部長知道一下，泰國清邁、泰國曼谷、日本札幌、日本岡山、日本沖繩、韓國釜山、韓國首爾金浦、馬來西亞沙巴、越南富國島、馬祖南竿。這個馬祖南竿是包機的。所以目前我們已經成功有爭取這些，這個當然要謝謝交通部跟民航局的協助。右邊這邊其實也讓部長簡單看一下這一段時間的流程，尤其是新加坡、沖繩在疫情之後也都恢復了，現在我們又加碼岡山跟熊本，岡山也已經啟航了，我自己親自去坐，就是虎航從岡山飛高雄，算是高雄─岡山的首航，以及高雄到富國島的首航，我都親自去坐這個首航，也覺得真的是很多我們高雄在地的需求能夠一一的滿足。"],["陳部長世凱：感謝委員努力爭取。"],["許委員智傑：當然我們也謝謝交通部跟民航局的協助。再來，其實這個過程也讓部長知道一下，其實我們真的是奔走了很多航空公司，包括華航、長榮、星宇、虎航、華信、韓亞、濟州航空、日本航空、新加坡航空、酷航等等，這些其實我們一一去問，之後才知道他們的意願，我們要爭取的強度，我們越努力跟他們爭取，他們也會越努力來協助我們，所以這個其實就是必須要花一些時間去努力。","當然，針對馬祖這一個航線，上一次我也跟部長提到可能有油的問題，包括那邊軍中的弟兄搭機往返的問題等等，這個都必須去溝通，所以目前就是油的問題，部長解決了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前還在協調當中，我們希望中油公司能夠協助，不過中油公司是經濟部所轄，我們也儘量跟他們溝通，看可不可以協助這個部分。"],["許委員智傑：有沒有結果了？"],["陳部長世凱：目前我這邊所知道還沒有結果。"],["許委員智傑：還沒有結果，希望儘快啦，我知道，包括加油人員的證照問題，還有加油機場的保險問題、油罐車的保險等等這一些，我知道中油已經初步有意願可以協助，當然意願歸意願，我想白紙黑字跟最後的定案還是需要交通部出面。"],["陳部長世凱：是，對航空公司來說，一定要確定做到那裡有辦法加油，我們才有辦法讓航空公司能夠不用加這麼多油可以載多一點客人過去。"],["許委員智傑：所以油如果可以解決的話……其實現在70人座的只能坐50個人……"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["許委員智傑：因為要載油。油的問題如果可以解決的話，就可以70人座坐70人，這樣子很紮實，將來才會有機會變成固定航班，希望部長能繼續再追。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["許委員智傑：剛剛部長也承諾過，就是明年元旦之前，馬祖航線……"],["陳部長世凱：我們用補助的方式做到元旦。"],["許委員智傑：對，就是到元旦之前保證都會有。"],["陳部長世凱：這種包機都會繼續。"],["許委員智傑：我認為試辦要讓人民知道，時間也不要只有一個月，所以謝謝部長，現在又加長一個多月，到明年元旦又多了一個多月。"],["陳部長世凱：到元旦假期。"],["許委員智傑：希望能趁這個空檔，至少在中間這段緩衝期把油的問題解決，把機場、油罐車等保險問題、人員問題解決之後，可能將來成為固定航班的機會就比較大。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這是先決條件。"],["許委員智傑：再來，跟部長再報告一下，其實我那一天有去拜訪另外一家航空公司，民航局剛剛給他們執照。他們有意願開馬祖到高雄航線，因為他們是19人座、20人座左右的，要他們固定飛可能願意，所以這個也希望部長可以……"],["陳部長世凱：如果這樣的話很好，因為目前的運量大概沒有這麼多人，但如果是比較小的飛機，座位數沒那麼多的，或許我覺得比較有機會。"],["許委員智傑：所以這是部長還可以再考量的另外一個方案。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：還有一個方案其實很重要，如果從高雄坐晚上11點的飛機到美國或歐洲……現在我從高雄坐捷運、坐計程車、坐高鐵，然後再坐桃捷，提著一大袋行李翻山越嶺，畢竟出國的行李都很大，對高雄人來講真的很不方便！以前有高雄、桃園直飛的飛機，現在沒有了！"],["陳部長世凱：現在沒有。"],["許委員智傑：所以我現在也去拜託看可不可以飛？剛才我說的那一家航空公司願意，有意願，所以這部分希望部長可以再跟民航局協商一下！如果有機會，這等於是高雄到臺北、高雄到桃園，我們要出國的接駁機！"],["陳部長世凱：是、是。"],["許委員智傑：技術上的問題我有問過民航局長，他說還要克服！至於要克服什麼，總是拜託部長再盯一下！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["許委員智傑：對高雄人來講，接駁機太需要了！原本6點該出發的可以9點再出發，而且不用提著行李翻山越嶺，這對我們高雄人來講真的是一大福音。所以我希望部長可以跟我一起努力，促成這件事情趕快完成。","再來，過去我們有十條航線，未來我們希望還能再有十條航線，這個還需要再努力。也就是說我們希望未來能爭取飛我們的邦交國帛琉、印尼雅加達、菲律賓宿霧、泰國普吉島，然後長程的歐美澳、日本羽田、仙臺、熊本、高松以及韓國濟州等等。其實我有拜訪一些航空公司，也跟部長報告一下，目前紅字的札幌還沒完成，但新加坡、沖繩已經完成了，馬祖南竿完成了，只是後續還需要再調整。札幌在明年1月就有可能完成，明年2月熊本也可能會完成……"],["陳部長世凱：會。"],["許委員智傑：這些我們都陸陸續續在追蹤當中。雖然飛美國、飛歐洲有點困難，但是你看航線321的布拉格，布拉格是從臺北起飛的，當然我們會爭取讓臺北可以飛更多的歐美航線，因為臺北可以飛，將來高雄才更有機會。以布拉格來說，當時的交通部長跟我反映時，我提出這個建議。他當時說這是不可能的，你知道嗎？但經過我們一再努力，完成了！所以我覺得即便是不可能，我們還是要努力，把Impossible的「Im」去掉，就變成Possible！至於高雄到我們的邦交國帛琉，我們其邁市長很喜歡潛水，去帛琉潛水是好事，我希望在我們的全球航線上部長能夠再加強……"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來努力。"],["許委員智傑：以新321來說，歐洲就是南歐、西班牙，北歐的丹麥、瑞典，中東歐的波羅的海或波蘭。我跟部長報告一下，其實星宇跟華航飛南歐、北歐的意願還蠻高的，至於波蘭，長榮可能會有意願。其中，波蘭、西班牙我們以前已經有航權、航約；而亞太兩條復飛航點夏威夷、印度是疫情後才停飛的，所以將來我們可以再去努力。然後再講到衣索比亞，衣索比亞其實也很有意願跟我們臺灣合作。當桃園機場能夠增闢更多的航班、航線，將來高雄的機會就更大。我要特別講一下前一頁的雅加達，現在觀光署已經到雅加達設置辦事處，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["許委員智傑：印尼有兩億多的人口，臺北有飛，但高雄……其實高雄飛雅加達、飛印尼，甚至飛東南亞的人數相當多，但高雄不飛，如同我剛才對部長說的，這樣我們就得翻山越嶺，接駁機雖然是目前的一個解套方式，不過其實最直接的就是直飛！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們也希望高雄機場未來在針對新南向的方向，也就是對東南亞的航班要更多，這個方向是很確定的，所以這部分我們會來努力。"],["許委員智傑：所以這就再跟部長做一次報告。針對今天的要求，我特別再confirm一下，馬祖沒問題，至少到元旦……"],["陳部長世凱：到元旦假期。"],["許委員智傑：未來高雄飛馬祖是否有機會變成固定航班，我們還在努力。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力。"],["許委員智傑：高雄到桃園的接駁機，事實上可能性還滿大的……"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們來討論一下。"],["許委員智傑：我希望可以努力，希望部長可以多重視我們的全球航線、我們高雄的航線……"],["陳部長世凱：我們來討論。"],["許委員智傑：盡力來提早完成。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力。"],["許委員智傑：我們一起努力。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。","接下來邀請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157481","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157481","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177ab216b0199852bebf44e208bd6b14da82e54b9bd157483afa6ddaa78d60d08baa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:47:25 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那個市長我提醒你啦齁我提醒你成效不當是個事實不要一錯再錯效果沒有評估就針對預算這是對立法院是不重視的不重視還有一點為什麼連續7年都是這家廠商為什麼為什麼"},{"start":476.277,"end":477.098,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":494.434,"end":497.177,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":509.551,"end":525.528,"text":"只有他現在國內就算我們是公開招標的好啦好啦我提醒市長也不要再那個因為我時間也差不多那我希望這個部分我點出來你們好好解釋一下阿不然的話我還是有意見的"},{"start":526.169,"end":547.602,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":548.072,"end":557.135,"text":"你們如何去應對?這個車禍啊從11月份11月4號台61線發生11月12號台2線濱海公路發生那另外11月25號屏東訪山發生種種還有花蓮等等聯繫喔今年已經76次了請問"},{"start":575.843,"end":600.781,"text":"這個潮貫車你們現在怎麼管理?跟委員報告,潮貫車本來潮體的部分本來就是檢驗要通過要潮體的運輸要安全不過他應該是屬於就是說駕駛人整個業者的一個管理所以每次發生事故的話其實我們會去整個查他的公司的一個比如說司機的一個調度排班還有就是說他有沒有就是說其他比如說疲勞駕駛所以工時的部分我們也會去查"},{"start":603.063,"end":621.4,"text":"為什麼11月份你看喔今年已經五十七十幾次了那是危險物品欸不是一般單純車禍欸那是危險物品那是會爆炸的所以部長我把這個問題點出來我也知道我每一次給你的東西"},{"start":622.506,"end":643.163,"text":"都是比較新的可是這個重大問題耶如果是今天一般的單純的車後那我坦白講車輛這麼多一定難免但是這些是特殊車輛化學用品包括油罐這是會爆炸的所以"},{"start":644.264,"end":661.297,"text":"我要拜託部長針對這些問題這個問題要解決就是你部長要特別盯緊一點不要把每一樣事情發生以後才說啊我感到遺憾我感到抱歉沒有意義所以部長這個部分那未來你們怎麼做也拜託陳局長給我一點規劃好不好好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":208,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時47分）請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["林委員國成：會計處張處長。"],["主席：請張處長。"],["林委員國成：還有道安司黃司長也上來。"],["主席：請黃司長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員國成：部長，剛剛我們兩位同事已經問過的問題，我就不問了。其實那是國家正副元首治安的問題，凸顯機場管理不當，該做的、該處理的、該改進的就要去改進，所以我就不再贅述了。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來改進。"],["林委員國成：他們兩個都已經講得非常清楚，這凸顯機場管理橫向聯繫的不足，所以該開罰的、該怎麼改進的一定要去改進。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一定會改進、會開罰。"],["林委員國成：我就跟你談預算的問題，我會請張處長上來就是因為部長不可能管得這麼細，但是很不幸的，立法委員看你們的預算看得非常細。"],["陳部長世凱：應該的。"],["林委員國成：我今天就摘要幾個問題想請教，第一個、113年道路交通安全業務編列預算六億五千多萬，但是114年編列的預算只有5億1,000萬左右，請問這是什麼原因？"],["陳部長世凱：我所知道的應該是有一部分預算移到公路局，也就是公路局跟我們現在所看到的預算加起來，應該跟去年差不多並沒有減少，規模是一樣的，只不過有一部分放到公路局。您很關心交通安全的部分，全民都關心，我們一定不會讓這個部分的預算減少，甚至我希望它能夠再增加。"],["林委員國成：部長，我可以告訴你，底下的人都不跟你老實講，這個部分不是由公路局來編，而是把這個預算挪到宣傳費的部分。沒有關係！我跟你講，立法委員針對你們的預算提出質疑的時候，我希望你們說明很清楚。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["林委員國成：一條一條把它說明很清楚。因為今天主要是談未來的預算如何去改變、如何去說明，我想召委召開這個會議主要的目的是這樣，但是給你們方向，你們該解釋的就要來解釋。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，沒有問題。"],["林委員國成：我看完以後，發現到宣傳費是暴增的。舉例而言，交通部114年一般事務費共編列一億四千多萬，宣傳費就占了1億500萬，超過七成都在宣傳費，而113年編列7,780萬，宣傳費只有5,000萬左右，這個比例為什麼會這樣？部長，為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：我們今年所增加的預算是在道路安全的宣導，因為我們有看到事故比例相對高而且死亡的比例也相對高，尤其是年長者、比較高齡者，所以我們希望在交通安全宣導跟教育的部分多作一點宣傳……"],["林委員國成：很好！部長，我完全支持，當一個立法委員，只要民脂民膏用在正確的地方，當然我們要去支持你。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：我開始就講過，本黨8位立委只要是臺灣的建設，我們不刪，只要是老百姓的福祉，我們不刪，但是不當的挪用、不當的宣傳，我們一定要追根究柢，所以這一點我特別要提醒部長。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，沒問題。"],["林委員國成：對部長的整個業務跟作法，基本上我都一向非常支持，因為我希望年輕人有年輕人的作法，不能用這種逃避式或欺騙式的編列預算。我已經點出來，你們的宣傳費成長將近一倍到兩倍，這個部分我想張處長比我更內行，我點出來了以後，你們如何解說也不要講太多，在這裡講多了以後，你們也不會承認，但是我點出來的時候，希望你們解釋清楚，不然我對這個預算還是有意見。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一定會說明清楚。"],["林委員國成：另外，因為我也知道部長重視交通安全，尤其你自己在你的臉書都講了，有了小孩以後，你非常重視小孩的交通安全，這個我肯定。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員國成：但是在這個部分，我要跟你探討的就是「路老師計畫」的成效問題，這裡面凸顯一個問題，請問113年所有預算跟材料的編列預算只有750萬，今年為什麼編了1,850萬，為什麼？司長，路老師的部分，這是材料而已，怎麼會成長這麼高啊？750萬，今年是編1,850萬，為什麼？來，司長。"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，我們除了材料費以外，這些費用也會補助各個縣市各監理單位，當路老師出去宣導的時候……"],["林委員國成：好啦，你不要講這些，我問你為什麼，你就給我講重點，為什麼？有什麼改變？它的成效如何去改變，為什麼會成長兩倍嘛？2.6倍。"],["黃司長運貴：是。"],["林委員國成：其他都不要講，司長，你其他都不要講，我也知道你很認真，可是委員問到這個預算的問題，當然你們要說明啊，我點出來就是要你們來說明，說明清楚，有理由當然要支持你們，其他都不要講，好不好？其他都不要講，我問你為什麼。"],["黃司長運貴：好，我想最主要的就是，我們希望路老師計畫宣傳的場次能夠增加，讓我們全國各地方都有路老師去宣導。"],["林委員國成：好，黃司長，我特別要請教你，你們有沒有評估成效的問題，有沒有？"],["黃司長運貴：當然如果是從數據上來看，我們還有努力的空間。"],["林委員國成：對啦！"],["黃司長運貴：但是我們還是希望透過這樣的宣導……"],["林委員國成：好，司長，我提醒你，成效不彰是個事實，不要一錯再錯，效果沒有評估就增列預算，這對立法院是不重視的，還有一點，為什麼連續七年都是這家廠商？為什麼？為什麼？"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，基本上我們這個計畫主要是在做路老師的培訓……"],["林委員國成：沒有啦，我問你啦，為什麼都是這一家廠商，連續七年都是它……"],["黃司長運貴：基本上，我們都是根據採購法評選出來的，的確是按照這個程序，我們就是這家廠商……"],["林委員國成：連續七年耶？"],["黃司長運貴：是。"],["林委員國成：然後成長2.6倍，錢雖然不多，有成效當然還是要給，但是問題是同一家廠商為什麼會連續七年？我也很納悶，為什麼？只有它？"],["黃司長運貴：現在國內，就像我們是公開招標的……"],["林委員國成：好啦，好啦，我提醒司長，也不要再……因為我時間也差不多，我希望這個部分我點出來，你們好好解釋一下，不然的話，我還是有意見的。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員國成：我們立委同仁大家都很認真，但是我或許會看得比較細一點啦，你們應該要講清楚。","來，最後一個，我利用時間，請公路局陳局長，我請問一下，槽罐車最近車禍頻頻，你們如何去應對？這個車禍在11月份，從11月4號台61線發生，11月12號台2線濱海公路發生，另外，11月25號屏東枋山發生種種，還有花蓮等等，連續喔！今年已經76次了，請問這個槽罐車，你們現在怎麼管理？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，有關槽罐車槽體的部分，本來就是檢驗要通過，槽體的運輸要安全，不過它應該是屬於駕駛人及整個業者的管理，所以每次發生事故的話，其實我們會去整個查他的公司，比如司機的調度排班，還有就是他有沒有其他比如說疲勞駕駛，所以工時的部分，我們也會去查。"],["林委員國成：你們如何處理嘛？為什麼11月份……你看喔，今年已經七十幾次了，那是危險物品。"],["陳局長文瑞：是、是。"],["林委員國成：不是一般單純車禍，那是危險物品，那是會爆炸的。"],["陳局長文瑞：沒錯、沒錯。"],["林委員國成：所以部長，我把這個問題點出來，我也知道，我每一次給你的東西都是比較新的，可是這個重大問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是、對。"],["林委員國成：如果是今天一般單純的車禍，我坦白講，車輛這麼多一定難免，但是這些是特殊車輛、化學用品，包括油罐，這是會爆炸的，所以是我要拜託部長。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員國成：針對這些問題，這個問題要解決，就是部長要特別盯緊一點，不要每一項事情發生以後才說：「我感到遺憾，我感到抱歉」，沒有意義，所以部長……"],["陳部長世凱：特別危險的車子，我們會特別來……"],["林委員國成：這個部分未來你們怎麼做，也拜託陳局長給我一點規劃，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：是，一定、一定。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員。","接下來邀請許智傑委員發言。本席在這邊先宣告：等一下在本席質詢完之後處理臨時提案，然後休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157480","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157480","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177aaae95c9e81b4df2444e208bd6b14da82e54b9bd157483afa25a559157b58088d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"09:38:11 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那台南市最少在六都裡面台南市的面積是第二大那台南市的地形就是南北很狹長"},{"start":184.002,"end":185.803,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":204.408,"end":218.742,"text":"現在以補的路線總支出是3億2900萬如果補助85%你可以補助到2億8左右但目前中央的補助只有1億2800萬"},{"start":222.543,"end":223.964,"text":"六、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":248.763,"end":257.209,"text":"十幾年前的薪資甚至油的價錢物價跟現在差那麼多這樣的差額是不是請中央來給我們補足"},{"start":262.756,"end":285.304,"text":"公共運輸的推廣對中央來說是個很重要的政策那當然臺南我覺得進度稍稍有落後那需要中央幫忙中央一定全力幫忙不過您剛剛所提到的這個細節我是不是請局長看怎麼協助他因為移撥路線他以前是就是說我們公路局的公路客運後來移撥到地方像直轄市的那你要補助給我們啊我們要幫你做的"},{"start":288.986,"end":308.516,"text":"各位,因為他當初大概這個六都的移撥的時候,他就說因為比如說我們當初我們自己補貼給業者是多少錢,所以就是說移撥過去的時候也是補貼多少錢給各指甲室,那也希望說各指甲室在這個整個移撥之後,他的營運的效率不要掉下來啦。"},{"start":309.096,"end":335.076,"text":"我們也不要多啦,你就照規定嘛,那最高可以到85%,可以補助到2億8,你就幫我們補走1億2,差不多1億3啦,差了1億5啦。委員這個我們通盤來檢討,因為他其實跟… 什麼通盤檢討?對,因為他跟其他… 你就承補助就好,你都要用檢討。錢的問題你不用檢討啦,你就照規定,你就幫我報告嘛。不過因為他有一些原則,我們增加多少錢,我們來看一下… 那你為什麼會覺得"},{"start":336.417,"end":356.293,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單二、審"},{"start":359.087,"end":363.19,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":387.677,"end":389.518,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":405.234,"end":432.632,"text":"已經算算算是等30分也實在太久了啦但至少10分到30分這還有改善空間嘛你西北地區你等你等那個一小時一班的這不合理啦另外啦到高鐵K8的所在啦你要在台南K8的所在你要坐那個專用公車到高格地站喔一小時一班啦"},{"start":435.031,"end":435.871,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":462.465,"end":463.746,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":481.619,"end":510.21,"text":"結果極少數有賺錢的路線以外,很多基本上都是屬於補助啦。你不靠補助根本沒有辦法經營啦。它其實也算是我們社會服務或社會福利的一部分啦。啊你既然要做,你就做到讓它產生一定的方便性啦。像你這樣的要補助,要補助好像不補助。啊你做這個給補助當然沒人去啊。那你形同浪費。"},{"start":511.91,"end":512.094,"text":"所以"},{"start":513.393,"end":537.866,"text":"我們就以最簡單的等車時間來算至少都不能超過20分鐘以這樣的原則來進行計算補助我們把他拉到20分鐘比較合理好不好我們把他拉到20分鐘這樣比較合理好 謝謝部長 交通局聽到了 你們還要再找理由我們整個規劃以後再跟那個委員報告因為他就是我們把需求調查然後規劃方式謝謝喔 謝謝部長 謝謝局長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":159,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（9時38分）謝謝主席，本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。部長，機場公司在不在？臺灣英雄回國，造成機場大亂，這個事情你應該知道吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是，當然。"],["林委員俊憲：那你要怎麼處理？你要知道，我們機場是有嚴格管制的。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是管制區裡面，他們未經同意這樣拍照就不對；第二，未經同意在國家運動員回國的時候拉布條做宣傳，這更不對。我有講過，就是國家的運動員不是讓特定廠商拿來做為廣告的工具或者是道具，所以這個部分，第一，未來如果有類似國家的喜事……"],["林委員俊憲：沒有未來，你要怎麼追究責任？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分跟委員報告……"],["林委員俊憲：講一講就算了？"],["陳部長世凱：第一，桃機必須要檢討這次所發生的事件我們內部管理的問題；第二，針對采盟，我們必須要做裁罰，要讓這間公司知道未來類似的狀況底下不可以做這樣子的動作。"],["林委員俊憲：桃機管理實在是很沒有水準，這在管制區裡面，還有副總統的維安問題。副總統的維安是誰支援？是機場保全還是航警局？你怎麼可以讓一大堆人在那邊，場面一片大亂。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，應該是他們的特勤跟航警一起。"],["林委員俊憲：還有航警嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，還有航警。"],["林委員俊憲：航警一定是支援他，你看現場一片大亂，同時你要知道，剛剛部長講到是管制區，管制區誰可以進去？一般人進去必須要有一個通行的工作證，所以你看這些免稅店的員工，每個當然都有工作證才可以在裡面。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["林委員俊憲：但是有工作證不是就可以亂來，我們裡面規定得很清楚，通行工作證有一個管理規定，如果從事與職務不符的活動，造成不良後果者，你會給他停止使用1個月到3個月。你們既然有規定、有辦法，就應該去追究責任嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這一定要追究責任，而且必須要有裁罰，因為采盟公司在活動辦理之前，也就是我們國家的英雄要回國之前，其實大家都有溝通好，應該要在他們自己的店門口夾道歡迎就好，但是他們不照原本的規定跟規劃就衝出來，這個動作必然要裁罰，也會裁罰。"],["林委員俊憲：好。另外，部長，本席要跟你陳情一件事情，也希望交通部能夠支持，就是臺南公車的營運問題，在所有的公車補助裡面，六都就臺南市最少，在六都裡面，臺南市的面積是第二大，臺南市的地形就是南北很狹長，南北非常長。我用補助的金額來讓部長當參考，第一個，按照規定，如果不用多，按照中央移撥的路線，規定最多可以補助到85%，現在移撥路線的總支出是3億2,900萬，如果補助85%，可以補助到兩億八左右，但目前中央的補助只有1億2,800萬，落差有1億5,000萬，都是市政府負擔，地方負擔實在是受不了了。中央最多可以補助到85%，但實際現在補助的差不多四成而已，為什麼呢？因為之前有一個莫名其妙的規定，就是補助不能超過前一年，而前一年的標準是訂在102年，102年是十幾年前了，十幾年前的薪資，甚至油的價錢，物價跟現在差那麼多，這樣的差額是不是請中央來給我們補足？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，公共運輸的推廣，對中央來說是個很重要的政策，當然臺南我覺得進度稍稍有落後，若需要中央幫忙，中央一定全力幫忙，不過您剛剛所提到的這個細節，我是不是請局長看怎麼協助？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為移撥路線以前是公路局的公路客運，後來移撥到地方，像直轄市的……"],["林委員俊憲：對，你要補助給我們，我們替你做，你卻沒給錢。"],["陳局長文瑞：因為移撥給六都的時候，比如當初我們自己補貼給業者是多少錢，移撥過去的時候也是補貼多少錢給各直轄市，也希望各直轄市在整個移撥之後，營運的效率不要掉下來。"],["林委員俊憲：我們也不要多，你就照規定，最高可以到85%，可以補助到兩億八，你卻補助我們差不多一億三，差了一億五。"],["陳局長文瑞：我們通盤來檢討，因為他跟其他六都的直轄市……"],["林委員俊憲：什麼通盤檢討？你補助錢就好了，還要檢討？錢的問題，不用檢討，你就照規定補足。"],["陳局長文瑞：不過因為有一些原則，增加多少錢，我們來看一下整個公運計畫……"],["林委員俊憲：你為什麼會覺得有效率的問題呢？我給部長參考，這個就是惡性循環的問題，因為臺南南北狹長，曾文溪以北、溪北地區有些幹線離重要的商業活動或者是高鐵很遠，而公路局移撥的幹線，像溪北有幾條路線的班次都很少，部長認為等一臺公車等多久是合理的？"],["陳部長世凱：其實我之前成長的過程在臺北，5到10分鐘算是比較正常的狀態。"],["林委員俊憲：溪北地區要等一個小時，比較快也要等30分鐘，要等一個小時的公車誰要坐？所以再怎麼看也覺得運量不高，公車一個小時才一班，有誰願意去搭？你看臺南變成兩個地方了，溪北、溪南差很多，溪南是10分到30分，等30分也實在太久了，至少10分到30分還有改善空間嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：溪北地區等一個小時一班，這不合理！另外到高鐵，如果你要在臺南溪北地區坐專用公車到高鐵站，一個小時才一班，有人要坐嗎？我認為溪北到高鐵差不多20分一班，合理嗎？陳局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：我們來……"],["林委員俊憲：你不要再檢討，不要亂講話，不合理就是不合理，你有什麼好講的？一個小時等一班，這種公車當然沒人坐，是不是這樣？你看溪南也是20分一班！"],["陳部長世凱：我們跟業者來溝通，班次上如果有需要增加，我們就來增加，因為這個確實是太久，就讓大家搭乘的意願低。如果是60分鐘一班，對他來講，一定會選擇其他運具……可以拉近。"],["林委員俊憲：公車在臺灣除了極少數有賺錢的路線以外，很多基本上都是屬於補助，不靠補助根本沒有辦法經營。"],["陳部長世凱：這個補助中央會來協助。"],["林委員俊憲：它其實也算是社會服務、社會福利的一部分，既然要做就做到讓它產生一定的方便性，像這樣要補助又好像不補助，你做這個服務當然沒人使用，形同浪費，所以我們就以最簡單的等車時間來算，至少都不能超過20分鐘，以這樣原則來計算補助，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們把它拉到20分鐘比較合理。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：局長有聽到吧？你不要又在那邊找理由，我跟你說，部長有答應，你現在……"],["陳局長文瑞：我知道，我們整個規劃以後再跟委員報告。我們就是把需求調查，然後規劃班次。"],["林委員俊憲：好，感謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝部長，謝謝局長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。","接下來邀請林國成委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157479","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157479","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a231a13480d43323844e208bd6b14da82e54b9bd157483afa71a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:29:15 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:308.426,"text":"另外一個部分就是說這四家也目前都在這個擴廠那只要是公路局核定的然後業者下單採購的那個工廠生產的這個進度都在交通部在做一個控管"},{"start":308.666,"end":326.656,"text":"因為我現在知道說有關電動巴士其實不是只有地方政府還有一些客運業者、客運公司那他們如果合定的時候假設是合法合法、合理而且是符合規格的時候也要請說我們交通部尤其是公路局這邊能夠盡快說不要就是說"},{"start":327.316,"end":347.175,"text":"就是說讓他們能夠順利的趕快能夠申請然後趕快過關因為他們也很希望說能夠把這些巴士能夠趕快實施使用這樣對全民不管是對於我們的淨林排檯的目標也好還是對我們全民的方便也好那另外一方面也就是因為我是基隆的委員那我有去拜訪過不少業者"},{"start":347.715,"end":367.904,"text":"那有些業者跟我們講他們很願意全力配合這個電動巴士的專案甚至有一個業者直接跟我提到說他們現在已經有提到說要提出有33台的電動巴士針對我們基隆最忙的2088路線也是我們基隆的黃金路線直接從基隆的八斗子直接到台北直接到台北火車站"},{"start":368.544,"end":384.673,"text":"那他們這條路線他們未來會投入33台的電動巴士那如果有未來有機會的話那像說我們公路局是不是能夠讓這個電動巴士提早上路讓他們能夠順利這是我相信交通部預算的地方我以這個部分我們全力來協助好那另外一點就是有關路權"},{"start":385.253,"end":400.445,"text":"因為現在我剛剛提過2088是我們基隆市的黃金路線可是每天早上從八斗子發車經過基隆市到文化中心然後再從一高最塞的從大葉隧道開始一路到市府轉運站"},{"start":403.908,"end":421.93,"text":"可是尷尬的點就是在於說其實明明在從八斗子到這個62號架也就是到三分之一路程的時候很多的班次其實已經載滿人了但是依照目前的路權他們必須某個程度上來講是個冗長的過程他們必須重新從八斗子"},{"start":422.831,"end":447.435,"text":"經過62號A62號甲然後再到這個基隆女中然後再到基隆市文化中心然後最後再上一高變成說在大葉隧道開始一路塞車跟這個常態性塞車跟我們民眾要搭乘去臺北市府轉運站這其實造成很多的不便所以在這邊也請教說我們部長跟公路總局甚至高工局請教說有沒有可能說假設這邊的車子62這個2088"},{"start":451.136,"end":478.587,"text":"只要如果說在這個62號甲之前已經滿車了是不是可以不用多跑一段而是直接從62號甲直接接62號直接上一高這樣一方面可以縮短我們這些乘客等待的時間另外一方面也可以實質上的可以消化一些交通用色部長跟局長你們認為呢?報告委員您說的這個案子我覺得這件事是很值得討論因為"},{"start":480.227,"end":504.934,"text":"對於跑國道客運的這種路線來說他們是滿座基本上就不能再載人但如果還要再繞原本的路線基本上他也沒有辦法再讓客人上車但是很浪費時間所以委員提的這個建議我們在下一週應該會現場去辦會刊去了解之後我們來協助業者我們先做三個月的試辦先做三個月的試辦那如果試辦的狀況不錯那我們之後再延續"},{"start":506.494,"end":520.892,"text":"那就是那就麻煩部裡面幫忙幫我基隆人再多一點聲音我這次還是要再次再給我們交通部高度的肯定也代表基隆市市民跟你們說聲謝謝基隆很需要交通的幫忙那我看到陳部長所帶領的團隊很努力幫基隆解決一些問題謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":128,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時29分）有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：中華隊好不容易拿冠軍了，這件事全國都很開心，比較尷尬的是他們回來的時候，采盟免稅商店喜事亂蹭、主兵不分，甚至我記得最早的時候，好像在第一時間PTT上面就直接說這叫做「黃巾之亂」。基本上，我覺得這個鬧劇其實是滿不恰當的行為，我必須認真講。我想請問一下部長，桃園機場未來有什麼後續的處理？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這件事情發生確實很不應該，昨天媒體在詢問的時候，我也說國家的運動員不應該被特定廠商或某些商業的廠商拿來當作宣傳的工具或者是道具，這是非常不妥的。這絕對是國家喜事，這件事其實不應該被采盟這間公司拿來作為宣傳的工具，我也要求桃機公司立刻就要做檢討，目前針對檢討的部分，我們的理解大概就是采盟在照相的過程當中，他們是在管制區，而在管制區裡面，他們未經同意就來拍照，而且未經同意就拉了布條來做宣傳，這是非常不妥的，所以桃機公司也應該有對采盟做出檢討，同時也要求他們未來不可以再犯。當然委員剛才所提醒的是最重要的，就是未來不能再發生類似的狀況，這是第一件要處理的事情。","我們昨天看到的是管制區裡面混亂，但管制區外面看起來狀況還可以，因為當時也是配合體育署的路線規劃，桃機公司是完全配合他們的規劃，所以在整個場外的部分是沒有問題。第一，我們在場內管制區的部分不應該發生這樣的事情，未來怎麼防範，這個部分要做檢討。第二，就是針對采盟公司有沒有要做裁罰，我也要求桃機公司立刻檢討，如果有需要裁罰，我們就來裁罰，要讓這些商業公司知道不該做的事，而且在未經桃機公司允許的狀況底下做這些事是必須受到懲罰的。"],["林委員沛祥：這件事情會讓全國的人民覺得很不舒服，因為這很明顯是公器私用、公私不分，所以針對這件事情，我希望桃園機場能夠做出明快的處理。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員沛祥：我再來要講的是有關2030年全臺灣的巴士都要電動化，其實這件事情我也要特別給予交通部高度的肯定，因為上禮拜部長來，說已經核定對於基隆未來所有電動巴士，交通部都會補助一半。不過我這邊也接到一些陳情，就是目前電動巴士能夠選的廠商數量很少，好像只有兩家還是一家？"],["陳部長世凱：目前是四家，未來應該會有五家。"],["林委員沛祥：他們就很擔心如果要在2030年準時讓我們全臺灣的巴士都電動化，可能來不及，因為我們現在的進度已經是落後的，甚至有人提議可不可以再多開放一、兩家，讓產量能夠往上提，也讓我們申請的時間能夠到位，因此2030年的時候，我們可以達到全臺灣電動巴士能夠全部都達標的目標呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個對交通部來講是一個很重要的政策目標，在2030年要達到所有電動巴士的普及化，這個部分其實目前是有4家，或許在產量上面讓很多的縣市或者很多的公司認為只有2家產出的速度比較跟得上，未來會有5家，所以這個部分我們也會跟經濟部來合作，就是針對製造商的部分，我們希望它的產量要足夠、要充足，要讓各縣市在替換電動巴士的過程當中，不要說它有預算、它想做，但它買不到，這件事不可以讓它發生。"],["林委員沛祥：因為只剩下5年整，所以這時間其實蠻趕的，我們現在普及率好像20%還是30%？"],["林司長福山：目前今年核定兩千多輛，普及率已經達到25%以上。"],["林委員沛祥：25%？"],["林司長福山：對。另外一個部分，我趁這個機會也跟委員報告一下，就是目前已經完成10項國產化，還有走另外管道的大概就有這4家，目前還有另外1家在申請完成國產化的審查。另外一個部分，就是這4家目前也都在擴廠，只要是公路局核定的，然後業者下單採購的，工廠生產的進度都由交通部在做控管。"],["林委員沛祥：因為我現在知道有關電動巴士其實不是只有地方政府，還有一些客運業者、客運公司，他們如果核定的時候，假設是合法、合理，而且是符合規格的，也要請交通部尤其是公路局這邊能夠儘快，就是讓他們能夠順利地趕快申請，然後趕快過關，因為他們也很希望這些巴士能夠趕快實施、使用，這樣不管是對於我們淨零排碳的目標也好，還是對我們全民的方便也好。","另外一方面，因為我是基隆的委員，我有去拜訪過不少業者，有些業者跟我們講他們很願意全力配合電動巴士的專案，甚至有一個業者直接跟我提到他們現在已經要提出33臺的電動巴士，針對基隆最忙的2088路線，也是基隆的黃金路線，從基隆的八斗子直接到臺北火車站，這條路線他們未來會投入33臺的電動巴士，如果未來有機會的話，公路局是不是能夠讓這個電動巴士提早上路，讓他們能夠順利？這是我想請交通部協助的地方。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，這個部分我們全力來協助。"],["林委員沛祥：好。另外一點就是有關路權，我剛剛提過2088是基隆市的黃金路線，可是每天早上從八斗子發車，經過基隆市到文化中心，然後再從一高最塞的大業隧道開始一路到市府轉運站，可是尷尬的點就是在於，其實明明從八斗子到62號甲，也就是到三分之一路程的時候，很多的班次其實已經載滿人了，但是依照目前的路權，某個程度上來講，是個冗長的過程，他們必須重新從八斗子經過62號甲，再到基隆女中，再到基隆市文化中心，最後再上一高，變成在大業隧道開始一路塞車，是常態性的塞車，我們民眾要搭乘去臺北市府轉運站，其實造成很多的不便。","所以在這邊也請教部長跟公路總局甚至高公局，有沒有可能，假設這邊的車子2088只要在62號甲之前已經滿車了，是不是可以不用多跑一段？而是從62號甲直接接62號，直接上一高，這樣一方面可以縮短這些乘客等待的時間，另外一方面也可以實質上的消化一些交通壅塞。部長跟局長，你們認為呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您說的這個案子，我覺得這件事是很值得討論，因為對於跑國道客運的這種路線來說，他們是滿座基本上就不能再載人……"],["林委員沛祥：對。"],["陳部長世凱：但如果還要再繞原本的路線，基本上它也沒有辦法再讓客人上車，而且很浪費時間，所以委員提的這個建議，我們在下一週應該會去現場辦會勘，去了解之後，我們來協助業者，先做3個月的試辦，如果試辦的狀況不錯，我們之後再延續。"],["林委員沛祥：好，那就麻煩部裡面幫忙，幫我們基隆人再多點誠意。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["林委員沛祥：我這次還是要再給交通部高度的肯定，也代表基隆市市民跟你們說聲謝謝，基隆很需要交通的幫忙，我看到陳部長所帶領的團隊很努力地幫基隆解決一些問題，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員。","接下來邀請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":390,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-11","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林俊憲","林國成","許智傑","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","游顥","徐富癸","蔡其昌","邱若華","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","麥玉珍","李昆澤","吳宗憲","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","葉元之","陳雪生","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","林月琴","陳俊宇","林倩綺","王鴻薇","羅智強","張雅琳"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關\n於交通部中央氣象署單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單\n位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業\n基金─國道公路建設管理基金分預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00013"}}},{"id":"157478","url":"https://ivo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在這樣的一個情況之下,還有一個什麼呢?"},{"start":78.712,"end":88.015,"text":"有廠商在完成之後,他的投資獲利他沒有跟員工來共享,或者是核定龍帶的部分呢,他沒有符合。"},{"start":88.735,"end":95.016,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下導致是不是因為如此導致你在114年的預算你反而你反而是減少了322萬7千萬元這個在我們整個產業界來講是很華然的一件事情那所以本期要請教113年底也就是現在快要到了剩一個多月"},{"start":110.88,"end":110.9,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":140.66,"end":142.04,"text":"經濟部及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":167.576,"end":194.183,"text":"總金額需要的目標是在增加6千億的投資增加6千億的投資那本席再告訴你為什麼114年你的委辦會減少呢因為這個部分是編在科專的計畫裡面那因為科專統三的關係所以減少那因為原來的原因是你請回座來部長你來自企業界你聽到政府是如此統三所以導致減少"},{"start":195.203,"end":200.425,"text":"讓人家很嘩然所以第一個我們確認這個對台灣的企業來講非常重要我們確認也就是113年底到我們會延續三年希望創造6000億的一個產值那麼在你們的違辦費當中113年的你竟然在114年減少了300多萬"},{"start":220.132,"end":227.004,"text":"這個是不對的你們要怎麼樣去調整符合我們企業界的所需第二個也就是說針對於為什麼還有預辦"},{"start":231.089,"end":257.091,"text":"我申請通過我還在做的那在整個你們的方案裡頭可以怎麼樣經濟讓產業界可以好好的跟著政府去打拼政府好好做企業界的靠山這是我們要的認不認同完全認同完全認同那你把經濟方案給本席那我們確認也就是113年底到我們的方案再延長三年告訴給我們的這個產業界朋友請放心政府還是你的靠山"},{"start":257.898,"end":263.401,"text":"多久經濟方案給本席?年底一併經濟方案因為我們要延續再延續三年接下來本席還是要跟你討論電的問題114年我們在講你的追加預算今天在財委會經濟委員會財委會一起的討論"},{"start":287.294,"end":300.078,"text":"這一家的是一千億那如果明年的預算公共預算一千億換句話說總撥補是多少五千億假設假設這兩千億再通過所以本席要請教因為本席也覺得部長你還是蠻有gas的因為你說因為你說了10月16號執行到現在"},{"start":311.061,"end":333.135,"text":"我們現在兩個半月那麼你預估會收入的電費漲價的從10月16號開始是150億那全年約可以預注740億那如果台電截至到去年累計的是虧損3800億那再加上今年度113年是850億那這樣子是4600億"},{"start":338.118,"end":357.822,"text":"但是部長我說你用烏紗帽來打包票那您說的如果撥補2000億兩年後兩年內還漲電價那就是管理太差該走人但是你也會跟台電的員工共同來努力不使台電再繼續虧損這是你講的話嗎"},{"start":362.216,"end":373.267,"text":"我曾經有講過類似的話是您講的話嗎?是不是?不要咬人絕痴是您說的話嗎?對不對?這個方向是對的所以現在還是維持這個方向是不是?"},{"start":374.438,"end":376.239,"text":"電價不是我決定的我先問你討論"},{"start":399.87,"end":407.495,"text":"你剛才講說不能調價,調價不是我的,這是一個命題,這是一個很重要的因子在裡面。很重要的因子,我們再重複一句話,撥補2000億兩年後還漲電價,就是管理太差該走人,這是你講的話嗎?沒錯。那你也會以管理來改善嗎?是不是?針對本席的提問,你也說你會用管理來改善,是不是?"},{"start":430.29,"end":433.691,"text":"明年的電價會不會漲價不是我能決定的這個是這個電價審議委員在做決定的"},{"start":453.766,"end":469.4,"text":"部長 剛剛本席還說你很有架勢 你現在又沒架勢了怎麼說呢 本席告訴你 我們今年你的追加預算一千億明年的公務一千億 假設真的再撥補就五千億你已經把北市撥這麼大 請問明年還會不會漲價"},{"start":479.207,"end":505.997,"text":"請問明年會不會漲價是電價審議委員的部分那我講話那個前提是2000億你給我的以後兩年後他還需要漲價那我就下台就這樣子啊兩年後還需要漲價那不代表明年會漲價是嗎你的解讀是不是你所謂我們在理清楚你所謂的是給了以後你兩年後就不漲"},{"start":507.237,"end":512.144,"text":"若再漲就管理太差你的解讀是如此那換句話說明年跟後年還是有機會由電價評議委員會去決定資是不是如此是不是如此是不是如此因為現在正在審追加預算跟明年度的預算"},{"start":526.616,"end":529.799,"text":"再請教部長因為你來自企業你要用管理去改善你年底要提出台電的財務管理對不對我們在這邊討論了很多次那再一次的請教假設現在已經3000億的撥補你10月16號又漲人民的電價"},{"start":548.9,"end":555.822,"text":"接下來如果我們的追加預算1000億再給如果明年114年度的公務預算再撥補1000億那總共5000億再加上10月16號已經漲價在這樣的情況之下請教明年會不會漲價"},{"start":567.912,"end":590.917,"text":"明年會不會漲價不是我能夠決定的他是電價審議委員會去決定的所以部長這也是你的回答也是你的論點那個王總經理要回答你是不是告訴我明年不漲價來你趕快講請你趕快講不是跟委員報告啦齁如果因為咬人絕肢沒有用我們希望民眾希望得到答案"},{"start":592.861,"end":615.981,"text":"今年如果補1000億給台電今年年底台電就稍微有一點盈餘這些數字你預計會盈餘77億多嗎我本心已經給你看數字看得很清楚請你繼續回答所以我們就是因為有盈餘所以這些數字都會提供給電價審議委員會在明年的時候會去做參考由他們來決定要不要漲電價"},{"start":617.982,"end":634.625,"text":"通膨嚴重未來不知所以我代表人民要請問明年是不是如果再給撥補是不是明年也有盈餘是不是應當不漲讓人民好生活是不是朝這個方向社會上就是整個燃料的價格的變動能夠在預期的範圍之內那當然是會比較樂觀沒有什麼問題沒有問題來部長"},{"start":643.487,"end":661.833,"text":"您聽到我還是希望以你企業的管理我們來做討論喔也就是真的人民苦哈哈很辛苦那我們到底要怎麼樣去穩定這非常的重要你不可能撥兩層皮一方面公務預算撥補追加預算撥補一方面再漲價"},{"start":664.09,"end":680.89,"text":"然後我們又確認再請問明年是不是部長如果照王總經理這樣講人民似乎有一點安心喔所以部長是不是朝這個方向來努力我們當然是朝這個方向來努力我們朝這個方向來努力朝這個方向來努力接下來"},{"start":683.052,"end":704.048,"text":"本期最後一個議題給你也就是經濟部你11月21號復行政院報告城鄉在地共好能量提升計畫要辦理368個城鄉這個評選跟全國競賽這個對於我們中小企業來講是非常非常的重要那其中在你的預算裡頭只有提及4年"},{"start":705.518,"end":711.525,"text":"中小企業是活絡我們地方經濟非常重要而且是穩定國家的一個重要的基礎所以你喊了4年5億你的內容是什麼"},{"start":725.314,"end":749.926,"text":"我們5億還是一樣的,讓每一個城鄉然後出來然後跟各地方的縣市政府一起來凸顯它的特色讓我們5億人做的事情很少,所以我們會辦比賽,全國辦比賽部長你剛才講了中小企業很重要,然後你又說5億很少可以做很少的事情,那我們中小企業該怎麼辦?中小企業占我們主要企業很多數"},{"start":751.391,"end":763.176,"text":"報告委員我只是講就是說我們會有方法讓整個中小企業起來請問你的方法方案什麼要出來什麼時候出來因為你現在只有畫一個把還沒有啦部長你只有告訴我們要辦比賽拿出368個城鄉的特色你的計畫還沒出來所以本席要請教大家都拭目以待啊什麼時候會出來你的方案"},{"start":778.602,"end":779.522,"text":"本期告訴您因為我們在審預算"},{"start":803.951,"end":804.071,"text":"主席"},{"start":823.948,"end":824.088,"text":"發言委員：楊瓊瓔"},{"start":846.55,"end":849.033,"text":"一個禮拜放案給本席,但是我也要為我們中小企業來請命,就像部長你所說的,四年五月對我們的中小企業是沒救的啦!對不對?"},{"start":865.331,"end":877.357,"text":"對 是不夠的 所以你務必想辦法要怎麼樣讓我們中小企業可以活絡起來預算方面 我想憑你的能量絕對可以再增加嘛 對不對加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時6分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們首先來討論「促進投資─加速投資臺灣之服務計畫」，我看了你們114年的委辦費覺得很納悶，你的委辦費反而是減少的，你114年編列了1,672萬3,000元，主要是在辦理整個投資臺灣三大方案的單一窗口服務事項，那本席很納悶，你竟然會自動減少。","但是我也看到，或許是因為這個原因，我不知道！也就是審計部在112年的總決算審核報告裡頭有提出審核意見：你在投資臺灣三大方案裡頭引導廠商投資以及協助升級轉型，逾半投資案件沒有完成，允宜改善，俾如期完成，希望能夠達到你的政策目標。在這樣的一個情況之下，還有什麼呢？有廠商在完成之後，他的投資獲利沒有跟員工來共享，或者是核定融貸的部分沒有符合。在這樣的一個情況之下，是不是因為如此，導致你114年的預算反而減少了322萬7,000元？這個在我們整個產業界來講，是很譁然的一件事情！","所以本席要請教，113年底──也就是現在、快要到了、剩一個多月，投資臺灣的三大方案要屆期了，本席要告訴你一個數字，到今年6月，仍舊有五成通過審核的投資計畫還在繼續辦理當中，所以我們的產業界很緊張，我們希望能夠繼續！又看到你的委辦費竟然是減少的，這個讓人家很納悶。所以本席要請教，你們在今年年底屆期之後會不會繼續辦理？精進方案是什麼？請做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：我可不可以請投資司跟你報告？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我會不會繼續？"],["張司長銘斌：跟委員報告，我們現在已經報院申請是不是能夠……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：繼續四年嘛？"],["張司長銘斌：延長三年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：三年還是四年？"],["張司長銘斌：三年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：確認是再延長三年？113年底到了再延長三年？"],["張司長銘斌：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總金額？"],["張司長銘斌：關於總金額，續航的目標是再增加6,000億的投資。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：增加6,000億的投資？"],["張司長銘斌：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那本席再問你，為什麼114年你的委辦費減少呢？"],["張司長銘斌：因為這個部分是編在科專的計畫裡面，那因為科專統刪的關係，所以減少，那因為原來的原因是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你請回座。部長，你來自企業界，你聽到政府是如此，統刪所以導致減少，讓人家很譁然！所以第一個我們要確認，這個對臺灣的企業來講非常重要，我們確認113年底到了會延續三年，希望創造6,000億的產值，那麼在你們的委辦費當中，你竟然在114年減少了三百多萬，這個是不對的，你們要怎麼樣去調整以符合我們企業界所需？第二個，針對逾半申請通過還在做的，那在你們整個方案裡頭可以怎麼樣精進？讓產業界可以好好的跟著政府去打拼，政府好好做企業界的靠山，這是我們要的，認不認同？"],["郭部長智輝：完全認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：完全認同，那你把精進方案給本席，那我們確認113年底到了，我們的方案再延長三年，告訴我們的產業界朋友請放心，政府還是你的靠山，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，需要您的支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久精進方案給本席？"],["郭部長智輝：我們年底的時候一併送給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：年底一併提供精進方案，因為我們要再延續三年。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，本席還是要跟你討論電的問題，關於你的追加預算，今天在財委會那邊由經濟委員會跟財委會一起討論，追加的是1,000億，如果明年的預算是在公務預算1,000億，換句話說，總撥補是多少？5,000億，假設這2,000億再通過的話。所以本席要請教，本席也覺得部長還是滿有guts的，因為你說10月16號執行到現在，剩下兩個半月，你預估會收入的電費──漲價的！從10月16號開始是150億，那全年約可挹注740億，如果台電截至去年累計虧損3,800億，那再加上今年度113年是850億，這樣子是4,600億；而部長你用烏紗帽來打包票，你說如果撥補2,000億，兩年後……兩年內還漲電價，那就是管理太差、該走人，但是你也會跟台電的員工共同努力，不使台電再繼續虧損。這是你講的話嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我曾經有講過類似的話。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是你講的話嘛，是不是？不要咬文嚼字，是您說的話嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：這個方向是對的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你現在還是維持這個方向，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，電價不是我決定的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，你不要緊張！"],["郭部長智輝：是電價審議委員決定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再請教，你有說你會用管理來改善，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我有說我會用管理來改善。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這些都是正確的方向，你不要緊張，你將你的理念講出來，這是最重要的……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我要講的是，電價不是我決定的，我是申訴……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我沒有問你電價，我先問你、討論你的管理方向。"],["郭部長智輝：你剛才講說不能調價，調價不是我的……這是一個命題，這是很重要的因子在裡面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很重要的因子。我們再重複一句話，撥補2,000億，兩年後還漲電價就是管理太差、該走人，這是你講的話嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你也會以管理來改善嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是？請針對本席的提問！你也說你會用管理來改善，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是嘛，好。所以本席要請教，如果真的追加預算1,000億，那照剛剛您說的話，也是你的正確方向，本席非常認同，那請問明年電價會不會漲價？"],["郭部長智輝：明年的電價會不會漲價不是我能決定的，這個是電價審議委員在做決定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，剛剛本席還說你很有guts，你現在又沒guts了！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦，這是兩年後，要判斷這些也要兩年後，跟明年沒關係！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴你，今年你的追加預算1,000億，明年的公務1,000億，假設真的再撥補就5,000億，你已經把百姓剝這層皮這麼大了！請問明年還會不會漲價？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，明年會不會漲價是電價審議委員的部分，我講的那個前提是2,000億你給我了以後，2年後它還需要漲價，那我就下臺，就這樣子啊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2年後還需要漲價……"],["郭部長智輝：對啊，不是說明年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那不就代表明年會漲價，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：明年會不會漲價……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的解讀是不是……我們再釐清楚，你所謂的給了以後2年後就不漲，如果再漲就是管理太差？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的解讀是如此？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，明年到後年還是有機會，由電價評議委員會去決定之，是不是如此？"],["郭部長智輝：讓我們努力嘛。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是如此？"],["郭部長智輝：讓我們努力嘛。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是如此？因為現在正在審追加預算跟明年度的預算。"],["郭部長智輝：是啊，但是我跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，沒關係，我們好好釐清楚。再請教部長，因為你來自企業，你要用管理去改善，你年底要提出台電的財務管理，對不對？我們在這邊討論了很多次。"],["郭部長智輝：對，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再一次請教，假設現在已經撥補3,000億，你10月16號已漲人民的電價，接下來如果我們的追加預算再給1,000億，如果明年114年度的公務預算再撥補1,000億，總共5,000億，再加上10月16號已經漲價，在這樣的情況之下，請教明年會不會漲價？"],["郭部長智輝：明年會不會漲價不是我能夠決定的，它是電價審議委員會去決定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長，所以這也是你的回答，也是你的論點？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：王總經理要回答，你是不是告訴我明年不漲價？來，你趕快講，請你趕快講。"],["王總經理耀庭：不是，跟委員報告，如果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：咬文嚼字沒有用，民眾希望得到答案。"],["王總經理耀庭：今年如果補1,000億給台電，今年年底台電就稍微有一點盈餘，這些數字我們都會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預計會盈餘七十七億多嘛，本席已經給你看數字看得很清楚，請你繼續回答。"],["王總經理耀庭：就是因為有盈餘，這些數字都會提供給電價審議委員會在明年的時候去做參考，由他們來決定要不要漲電價，所以等於是說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：通膨很嚴重，未來不知，所以我要代表人民請問，明年如果再給撥補，是不是明年也有盈餘？是不是應當不漲，讓人民有好生活，是不是朝這個方向？"],["王總經理耀庭：如果社會上整個燃料價格的變動能夠在預期範圍之內，當然是會比較樂觀，沒有什麼問題，但是不知道……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會比較樂觀，好，沒有問題。來，部長，您聽到了，我還是希望以你企業的管理，我們來討論，人民真的苦哈哈，很辛苦，我們到底要怎麼樣去穩定，這非常重要，你不可能撥兩層皮，一方面公務預算撥補、追加預算撥補，一方面在漲價，然後我們又確認……再請問，明年是不是不漲？如果照王總經理這樣講，人民似乎有一點安心，所以部長是不是朝這個方向來努力？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是朝這個方向來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：朝這個方向來努力喔！"],["郭部長智輝：但是漲不漲不是我能決定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，接下來本席給你最後一個議題，也就是經濟部11月21號赴行政院報告「城鄉在地共好能量提升計畫」，要辦理368個城鄉評選跟全國競賽，這個對於我們中小企業來講是非常非常地重要，其中在你的預算裡頭，只有提及4年5億的經費，目的要擴大商機，但是我們看不到內容，中小企業是活絡我們地方經濟非常重要的基礎，而且是穩定國家的一個重要基礎，所以你喊了4年5億，你的內容是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們5億還是一樣啦，讓每一個城鄉出來，然後跟各地方的縣市政府一起來凸顯它的特色，5億能做的事情很少，所以我們會辦比賽，全國辦比賽。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你剛才講了，中小企業很重要，然後你又說5億很少，只能做很少的事情，我們中小企業該怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我們沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：中小企業占我們主要企業很多數。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我只是講說我們會有方法讓整個中小企業起來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問你的方法、方案什麼時候出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我就是辦比賽，各鄉鎮去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你現在只有畫一個靶，還沒有啦！部長，你只有告訴我們要辦比賽，拿出368個城鄉的特色，你的計畫還沒出來，大家都拭目以待啊，所以本席要請教，你的方案什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是甄選好的案子給大家參考，然後他們再提出一個更有特色的案子出來，所以每一個城鄉不會一樣，這個部分是循序漸進，它不是1年的案子，而是一個4年的案子，所以跟委員報告，這個你給我一點時間，也許我可以去跟你稍微做一個簡報。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴您，因為我們在審預算，我們代表人民，要知道它的內容，這一筆預算OK不OK，但今天沒有內容，你現在告訴我，它的錢很少。第二個，你告訴我要給你一點時間，我都願意，所以我請你們把你們的方案拿出來，審預算之前，請你把你的方案拿出來，沒有那種沒有方案的……"],["郭部長智輝：有啦！我們還是有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就來一個4年5億，就來一個368個城市評比，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有，我們都有方案在裡面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你把方案拿出來，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間給本席？沒有方案我們怎麼審預算？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在當天的記者會都有說明得很清楚了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，請教方案什麼時候可以給本席？"],["郭部長智輝：可以啦，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候？"],["主席：好，一個禮拜給楊瓊瓔委員。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我最後告訴部長，一個禮拜內把方案給本席，但是我也要為我們中小企業來請命，誠如部長所說的，4年5億對我們的中小企業是不夠的啦！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦，辦這個活動是5億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，是不夠的，所以你務必想辦法，看要怎麼樣讓我們中小企業可以活絡起來。預算方面，我想憑你的能量絕對可以再增加，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-17","speakers":["呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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tart":178.031,"end":181.912,"text":"收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":205.636,"end":206.585,"text":"自己選的?從什麼時候開始測試?"},{"start":209.53,"end":236.965,"text":"從10月1號就已經開放10月1號還是11月10月1號10月1號開始開放這個平台來測試了齁那目前測試的這個進度跟這個我跟委員報告是10月1號已經開始使用了不是測試等之前我們已經測試完成10月1號就開放同仁開始進來上去選田了我們給他一段時間嘛因為明年1月1號開始上路所以現在開始已經可以使用了對不對10月1號開始"},{"start":240.747,"end":257.142,"text":"11月1日11月1日11月1日我們就開始開放這個平台的使用目前這個使用運作上面我們的這個測試的進度跟我們有沒有掌握目前在運作上面有沒有什麼缺失我請局長說明"},{"start":258.323,"end":280.612,"text":"司法委員其實我們11月1號就已經開放我們所有新進的公教人員可以上這個平台去選擇他未來的自主投資他要積極或穩健或保守那我們目前是有發個函是希望我們所有新進的公教人員在12月10號以前就可以決定他明年所需要的投資組合分目前使用上面有沒有什麼樣的回饋目前並沒有任何的困難"},{"start":285.734,"end":286.554,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":301.961,"end":327.454,"text":"這個尋答的時候個人有特別請全序部要針對我們公教人員個人專戶的這個退府儲金自主投資跟代為投資的運用要提出實施計畫那我看你們在7月18你們把這個實施計畫有提出來有提出這個有關公教人員個人專戶退府儲金自主投資或及這個代為投資的運用實施計畫那所以我就"},{"start":328.354,"end":331.899,"text":"今天接下來就來看就跟著部長來看好我們這個實施計畫裡面的一些內容"},{"start":338.973,"end":361.243,"text":"我看你們齁有關於這個公教人員個人專戶退府儲金風險屬性的評估齁你們在這裡面有提到這個風險屬性評估那風險屬性評估我現在看到的你們在就是有一份問卷啦齁我看到一份問卷表就現在如這邊所示的這個問卷表啦齁那這個我們這個"},{"start":363.814,"end":373.271,"text":"這個問卷我們有沒有會定期的來調整問卷的內容?或者是問卷的內容是不是能夠確保反映最新的市場投資跟投資人的需求?"},{"start":375.294,"end":397.07,"text":"報告委員,那這個問卷,風水屬性問卷那種是經過我們一個投資決策小組所有的,包括外面專家的跟學者的一些共同決定出來的,那這個部分其實是我們公交人員可以隨時去評估自己的狀況?因為一般的民間的投資平台,他也有做這種,他在KYC他們也都有做這樣子的問卷"},{"start":398.211,"end":408.737,"text":"但他們這個問卷他們大概會在很短的時間他們會一直不斷的更新不斷的去這個檢討更新這個問卷的內容那我現在就是要請你們說在這個經過小規模測試以後我們目前我們還是要定期的去驗證這個問卷的有效性那我們能夠再做定期的檢討跟更新的好不好謝謝委員指教我想這個民間都是這樣做我們也會定期來看看因為這雖然都是最基本的經過專家討論"},{"start":426.627,"end":438.595,"text":"我想定期還是可以再檢視說有沒有需要做這個問題的再做一些更新或補充。好,那我接下來我們看你們的這個相關有關於這個相關的這個預算,因為今天這個預算審查嘛。"},{"start":444.278,"end":466.114,"text":"那這個你們有關於這個相關的投資平台的預算齁你們在我看到全序部所編列的有關宣導自主投資平台的預算大概只有四百四百九十四百九十三萬對不對大部分我看大部分的這個這個有關退伏基金有關這個這個這個"},{"start":469.107,"end":488.562,"text":"大部分的編列在我們退府基金管理局裡面。退府基金管理局裡面我們編列了多少一億三千六百萬有關於這個自主投資平台的相關預算有一億三千六百萬那這個"},{"start":492.554,"end":507.627,"text":"我看到你們的實施計畫裡面齁你們包括這個管理局齁你們有有這個定期考核投資顧問定期檢視各個投資標的並定期公告這個定期到底是定多久的期有沒有你們有沒有"},{"start":510.334,"end":524.529,"text":"報告委員我們原則上每個月都會公告我們所有自主投資的各個組合的投資每個月公告一次喔每個月會公告我先是要了解說因為你們都寫定期定期我要了解說這個定期到底是多久啦齁那我看你們目前所辦的這個這個"},{"start":527.402,"end":542.617,"text":"這個宣導的辦理的場次齁你們說在北中南東共舉辦了24場實體教育宣導跟兩場的線上宣導啦齁兩場線上宣導那在這個部分齁我還是希望說例如說你們北中南東"},{"start":543.678,"end":561.613,"text":"像我們現在目前的大都會區桃園就沒有包括在內另外外島的部分我想也必須更需要加強的教育宣導所以這部分我希望說你們能夠加以補足好不好好那我部長就請接著我們請秘書長好不好秘書長委員長秘書長早"},{"start":569.363,"end":597.28,"text":"因為我們的考試委員到今年8月底就任滿了所以9月1號開始我們目前考試院是進入看守期那這個這個看守期我看你們所這個考試院你們所發布的新聞稿表示說目前我們在看守期間目前已暫停法案審查作業及重大政策的決定對不對"},{"start":599.403,"end":615.054,"text":"那這個這個我們就這個事實上進入看守期我們在因為之前我們這個考試委員的這個人事同意權一直沒有進行審查也一直沒有進行處理啦齁所以在這個看守我們事實上"},{"start":616.42,"end":640.763,"text":"就考試而言有很多部分依法法定上面會遇到困難雖然我們之前有一些權宜措施提早的把這個今年一部分考試的典事委員有做的處理對不對那接下來假設這一次的人事同意權沒有通過會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":642.079,"end":647.282,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分關於考試院考選部主管收支部分"},{"start":660.093,"end":666.899,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":682.335,"end":703.902,"text":"但這個第4場就已經沒有辦法再用權宜措施了嘛對不對在8月的時候沒有辦法處理因為他要報缺那他不可能提前掌握那麼清楚的掌握到人力的需求對所以也就是說這個我們有關考試委員的人事同意權在這一次的審查假設都沒有通過我們馬上這個明年第4次考試"},{"start":706.14,"end":731.138,"text":"會有法制上的困難。這個是法定的嗎?典事法裡面規定由院長合體典事委員長。就這個部分是法制上面比較難突破的一個部分。對,這個部分我是非常憂心。不只是這樣子,我們現在進入所謂的看守期。我看我們法制上面"},{"start":732.672,"end":740.459,"text":"例如說我們過去都是考試院的會議記錄現在我們修改這個考試院會議規則我們用修改會議規則的方式來繼續讓考試院能夠繼續在看守期來運作"},{"start":757.253,"end":758.514,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":774.345,"end":795.978,"text":"這個部分應該這樣就是說其實三位首長是院會僅存的成員他們本來就是院會的出席者但是你們以前之前都是考試院第幾屆的第幾次會議記錄但是我看你們現在已經沒有第幾次會議記錄了也就是說你們認定你們也是認定這個不算是一次"},{"start":797.518,"end":826.116,"text":"應該說這個是他的名稱啦因為我們現在並不是13屆也不是14屆所以我們後來用日期來定這個會議名稱所以我們這個會議是這樣第一個他只能處理緊急必要事項那我舉兩個例子一個就是典事法裡面所有要求要有必須要有經過院會的議案讓典事程序可以繼續往下走第二個就是像是跨院的會嫌案比如說我們的體育部的這個整個修法運動部的修法"},{"start":826.476,"end":841.116,"text":"他牽涉到中央機關組織基準法必須要考試院會選那院會是考試院的決策機制好這個部分齁這個部分我是擔心未來在這個釋法性上面齁是不是合憲合法這個部分齁恐怕會有點爭議啦齁不過"},{"start":843.991,"end":859.205,"text":"最後優關這個比較跟人民權益直接影響的在這個網路上面有看到現在目前在看守期我們所發的這些相關的考試及格證書上面沒有院長的名字"},{"start":860.931,"end":875.022,"text":"但是這個不影響效力?對,不影響效力但是很多拿到證書的這些考生對於這個上面寫考試院院長出缺這樣的字眼對於這個拿到證書的人希望是"},{"start":879.841,"end":882.083,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":898.291,"end":919.523,"text":"正書是只發只有一個版本因為他跟他的發出日有關所以他不能再換發成另外一個可以啊他如果遺失就可以補發啊遺失就發證明書證明書遺失之後只發證明書所以證書只發一次對政府只有只發一次因為這些人他們以後一輩子拿的就是考試院院長出缺的證"},{"start":920.632,"end":935.84,"text":"但是它就是考試院發出的證書?是啦我知道這個效力是沒有影響的但是在網路上面就很多拿到證書的考生大家就是對於這樣的證書很有意見啦大家就說如果真的不能補發他們就要去報遺失那發證明書的話?"},{"start":939.059,"end":956.612,"text":"就是用證明書的那個日期來處理這個我就覺得這個政治影響到人民的權益這個就是一個最大的例子我希望說我們是不是能夠研議看看因為這些證書相關的這些證書有的這些相關專業技術他們都要貼在都要貼在他們的這個相關的這個職業場所這上面就寫一個院長出缺"},{"start":968.865,"end":970.526,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":855,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時3分）主席，先請銓敘部。"],["主席：請部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：施部長早。今天我利用這個機會要來跟部長探討一個問題，就是我們從今年7月1號開始，初任公教人員個人專戶制退撫制度開始採行，我在今年3月13號的委員會詢答時，有特別對銓敘部就目前退撫儲金的相關問題提出一些詢問，在3月的時候，我有問到我們目前退撫儲金的參與人數跟規模，3月時的人數大概是八千多人，規模大概是6億，請問部長，現在呢？現在11月了，目前的參與人數跟規模大概是怎麼樣？"],["施部長能傑：現在參與人數大概是兩萬三千多人。"],["沈委員發惠：從八千多人成長到兩萬多？"],["施部長能傑：因為每個月都有新進的同仁，我們整個政府其實每個月都有新進同仁，所以累積起來……"],["沈委員發惠：規模呢？"],["施部長能傑：規模現在應該已經到達19億，快20億了。"],["沈委員發惠：19億了，就是從3月那時候的6億到現在19億，因為我們接下來12月還有普考跟地特這些考試，所以還會再有新的……"],["施部長能傑：高普考有些是已經分發進來，有些是等到明年分發，地特當然會慢慢再進來，簡單講，未來一定是每年的人數跟金額會再往上走。"],["沈委員發惠：到今年年底，我們預估會到多少？有沒有預估嗎？"],["施部長能傑：到今年年底的預估，請局長說明。"],["陳局長銘賢：到年底預估大概2萬5,000人左右。"],["沈委員發惠：因為我們之前有辦理這些新制的教育說明，但是對於這些新進人員，我們有針對這些陸續進來的新進人員繼續辦理相關的新制說明跟教育嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，我上來以後，我也跟局長好好討論過這個事情，我們窮盡所有可能的手段，一定要將我們明年要做的一些事情讓新進同仁能夠了解，然後我們也跟行政院那邊合作，透過行政院的人事體系直接跟同仁說明這些事情，我想這是非常重要的事情，都持續在進行。"],["沈委員發惠：對，這個非常重要！"],["施部長能傑：都有持續在進行。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個非常重要，因為事實上再過一個多月，到114年1月1號，我們的自主投資平臺就要上路了，這個自主投資平臺目前開始測試了嗎？"],["施部長能傑：已經有測試了。"],["沈委員發惠：從什麼時候開始測試的？"],["施部長能傑：事實上，現在已經開始請我們的同仁開始上去自己選了。"],["沈委員發惠：從什麼時候開始測試的？"],["陳局長銘賢：從10月1號就已經開放讓我們……"],["沈委員發惠：10月1號還是11月？"],["陳局長銘賢：10月1號。"],["沈委員發惠：10月1號開始開放這個平臺來測試，目前測試的進度跟……"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，是10月1號已經開始使用了，不是測試，等於之前我們已經測試完成，10月1號就開放讓同仁開始上去選填了，我們給他一段時間，因為明年1月1號開始上路。"],["沈委員發惠：所以現在開始已經可以使用就對了，10月1號開始……"],["施部長能傑：11月1號。"],["沈委員發惠：11月1號啦！11月1號我們就開始開放這個平臺的使用，目前使用運作上面，包含之前測試的進度，我們有沒有掌握目前在運作上面有沒有什麼缺失？"],["施部長能傑：我請局長說明。"],["陳局長銘賢：報告委員，其實我們11月1號就已經開放所有新進公教人員可以上這個平臺去選擇他未來的自主投資是要積極或穩健或保守，我們目前是有發函，希望我們所有新進公教人員在12月10號以前就可以決定他明年所要的投資組合……"],["沈委員發惠：目前使用……"],["陳局長銘賢：目前都是正常運作當中。"],["沈委員發惠：目前使用上面有沒有什麼樣的回饋？"],["陳局長銘賢：目前並沒有任何的困難。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有任何的缺失？你們也沒有接到什麼樣的回饋說目前平臺的使用上面……"],["陳局長銘賢：目前是還沒有接到什麼運作不順利的……"],["沈委員發惠：因為我剛剛有提到，3月我在這邊詢答的時候，我個人有特別請銓敘部要針對我們公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金自主投資及代為投資運用提出實施計畫，我看你們在7月18號有把這個實施計畫提出來，有提出有關公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金自主投資及代為投資運用實施計畫，所以我今天接下來就跟部長來探討這個實施計畫裡面的一些內容。","我看到你們有關於公教人員個人專戶退撫儲金風險屬性的評估，我看到你們有一份問卷，就如螢幕上所示的這個問卷表，請問對這份問卷有沒有定期調整問卷內容？或者是問卷的內容是不是能夠確保反映最新市場情勢及投資人的需求？"],["陳局長銘賢：報告委員，這個風險屬性問卷內容是經過我們的一個投資決策小組，包括外面專家跟學者共同決定出來的，這部分其實我們公教人員可以隨時去評估自己的狀況……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，因為一般民間投資平臺也有做這種問卷，他們在KYC也都有做這樣子的問卷，但是他們的問卷在很短的時間會一直不斷地更新，不斷地去檢討、更新問卷的內容。我現在就是要請你們在經過小規模測試以後，還是要定期地去驗證這個問卷的有效性，要能夠做定期的檢討跟更新，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員指教，我想民間都是這樣做，我們也會定期來看看，因為這雖然都是最基本的，且經過專家的討論，我想還是可以定期再檢視，有沒有需要就問卷內容再做一些更新或補充。"],["沈委員發惠：好。接下來我們來看投資平臺的相關預算，因為今天是預算審查，我看到銓敘部編列有關宣導自主投資平臺的預算大概只有493萬，對不對？我看大部分相關的預算都編列在退撫基金管理局，退撫基金管理局編列了1億3,600萬有關於自主投資平臺的相關預算，我看到你們的實施計畫裡面，包括管理局，你們寫說有定期考核投資顧問、定期檢視各個投資標的並定期公告，請問所謂「定期」到底是定多久的期，你們有沒有明定？"],["陳局長銘賢：報告委員，我們原則上每個月都會公告我們所有自主投資各個組合的投資標的……"],["沈委員發惠：每個月公告一次？"],["陳局長銘賢：每個月會公告一次。"],["沈委員發惠：好。我就是要了解這個，因為你們都寫「定期」，我要了解這個定期到底是多久。我看你們目前辦理的宣導場次，你們說在北、中、南、東共舉辦了24場實體教育宣導跟2場的線上宣導，在這個部分我還是希望，例如你們所稱的北、中、南、東，像大都會區桃園就沒有包括在內；另外在外島的部分，我想也更需要加強教育宣導，所以這部分我希望你們能夠加以補足，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["沈委員發惠：部長請回。接下來我們請秘書長，好不好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長早。因為我們的考試委員到今年8月底就任滿了，所以9月1號開始，目前考試院是進入……"],["劉秘書長建忻：看守。"],["沈委員發惠：看守期，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我看你們考試院所發布的新聞稿表示，目前在看守期間已暫停法案審查作業及重大政策的決定，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，對。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上進入看守期，因為之前考試委員的人事同意權一直沒有進行審查，也一直沒有進行處理，所以在看守期間，事實上就考試而言，有很多部分依法法定上會遇到困難，雖然之前有一些權宜措施，提早把今年部分考試的典試委員……"],["劉秘書長建忻：先請辦理。"],["沈委員發惠：有做了處理，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。"],["沈委員發惠：接下來假設這一次的人事同意權沒有通過，會有什麼樣的影響？"],["劉秘書長建忻：下面一個挑戰，因為我們在8月底的時候，第14屆已經提前請辦明年的前三項考試，那……"],["沈委員發惠：明年前三場是什麼考試？"],["劉秘書長建忻：第一個是公務員初等考試，第二個應該是醫師、牙醫師考試，第三個是護理、社工等等……"],["沈委員發惠：護理、社工？這些考試……"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，專技人力考試。"],["沈委員發惠：這個已經沒有辦法用權宜措施處理了嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個已經用權宜措施處理了，所以我們的下一個挑戰是明年的第四個考試，就是明年的關務跟身心障礙特考，它是明年4月辦理，今年12月24號開始報名。"],["沈委員發惠：但這個第四場就已經沒有辦法再用權宜措施了嘛，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：在8月的時候沒有辦法處理，因為機關要報缺，但它不可能那麼清楚的提前掌握到人力的需求。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有辦法處理嘛，對。所以也就是說，有關考試委員的人事同意權，這一次的審查假設都沒有通過，我們馬上明年第四個考試就……"],["劉秘書長建忻：會有法制上的困難。"],["沈委員發惠：這個是法定的嘛，對不對？典試……"],["劉秘書長建忻：典試法裡面規定，由院長核提典試委員長，這是法制上面比較難突破的一個部分。"],["沈委員發惠：對，這個部分我是非常憂心。不只是這樣子，因為現在進入所謂的看守期，事實上在法制上面，例如說過去的考試院院會的會議紀錄這部分，現在是修改考試院院會的會議規則……"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["沈委員發惠：用修改會議規則的方式，讓考試院能夠在看守期繼續運作……"],["劉秘書長建忻：讓會議可以繼續召開。"],["沈委員發惠：繼續召開，但是它已經不是院會了嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實院會就是考試院會議的簡稱，所以它還是考試院會議，只是不是用同一個法條來處理，它是一個特殊狀況，就是說當院長、副院長……"],["沈委員發惠：這個適法性有沒有問題？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個部分應該是這樣，就是說其實三位首長是院會僅存的成員，他們本來就是院會的出席者……"],["沈委員發惠：對，但是你們之前的名稱都是考試院第幾屆的第幾次會議紀錄，但是我看你們現在已經沒有第幾次會議紀錄了……"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為我們現在不在任何一屆。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是說你們也認定這個不算是一次……"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該說這是會議的名稱，因為我們現在並不是第13屆，也不是第14屆，所以我們後來用日期來訂這個會議名稱……"],["沈委員發惠：對，你們現在就變成用日期來訂這個會議嘛。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，所以這個會議是這樣，就是第一個，它只能處理緊急必要事項，我舉兩個例子，一個就是典試法裡面所有要求必須要經過院會的議案，讓典試程序可以繼續往下走；第二個就是像跨院的會銜案，譬如說運動部的修法，它牽涉到中央行政機關組織基準法，必須要考試院會銜，院會是考試院的決策機制，所以……"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個部分我是擔心未來在適法性上面是不是合憲合法，這個部分恐怕會有點爭議。","最後，比較跟人民的權益有直接影響的，在網路上有看到，目前在看守期，考試院所發的相關考試的及格證書上面沒有院長的名字。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，對，但是這個不影響它的效力。"],["沈委員發惠：對，不影響效力……"],["劉秘書長建忻：完全不影響效力。"],["沈委員發惠：當然不影響效力，但是很多拿到這樣的證書的考生，對於證書上面寫「考試院院長出缺」這樣的字眼，對於這個……"],["劉秘書長建忻：比較特別。"],["沈委員發惠：拿到證書的人的「kimochi」很有一些情緒跟意見，假設未來解決了這個法制上的問題，有考試院院長之後，他們能夠補換發證書嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：證書只有一個版本，因為跟證書的發出日有關，所以他不能再換發成另外一個。"],["沈委員發惠：可以，他如果遺失就可以補發。"],["劉秘書長建忻：遺失就補發證明書。"],["沈委員發惠：遺失之後只發證明書？"],["劉秘書長建忻：就發證明書。"],["沈委員發惠：所以證書只發一次？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，證書只發一次。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是說這些人他們以後一輩子拿的就是考試院院長出缺的證書？"],["劉秘書長建忻：但它就是考試院發出的證書。"],["沈委員發惠：是，我知道效力是沒有影響的，但是在網路上面很多拿到證書的考生，大家對於這樣的證書就是很有意見，大家就說如果真的不能補發，他們就要去報遺失。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，但發證明書的話，就是用證明書的那個日期來處理。"],["沈委員發惠：我覺得政治影響到人民的權益，這就是一個最大的例子，我希望我們是不是能夠研議看看，因為相關的這些證書，有的相關專業技術人員都要把證書貼在他們的執業場所，結果上面就寫一個「院長出缺」，他一輩子開的醫院上面的證書就是「院長出缺」，這個我是覺得我們可以研究看看，好不好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：他應該主要會是貼他的執業證書。"],["沈委員發惠：好。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員的質詢，秘書長請回。","接續我們邀請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":476,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","王鴻薇","謝龍介"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院考選部主管「考選業務基金」收支部分；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘部主管「公務人員退休撫卹\n基金」收支部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於考試院銓敘\n部主管「公教人員個人專戶制退撫儲金基金」收支部分；五、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於考試院主管預算凍結項目共4案【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310702_00003"}}},{"id":"157476","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157476","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a507bc923353c8f77083858d4ffa05d76e54b9bd157483afa468a1eea278b59595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:09:14 - 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又肩負著我們中華隊的球員的安全還肩負著我們蔡英文 呃 對不起喔 蕭美琴副總統的安全那 你們在旁邊 你們只會在那邊看然後結果人家在那邊推擠 在那邊撞 那萬一跌倒了怎麼辦?"},{"start":398.254,"end":412.226,"text":"人家這個我們陳捷憲他本來小朋友的他找不到他的太太跟他的小孩子那這個這麼混亂的一個狀況我們的特勤人員就只在旁邊看沒有其他任何可以協助的地方我也是跟過馬前總統的"},{"start":416.045,"end":426.729,"text":"沒有看過這樣的維安情況啊都是事前當天會隔開人當有一些人他要就算他是要跟馬天宗握手或什麼這種情況的時候我國的元首的維安是他都會去幫忙擋的耶那今天那一群黃衣服的衝到前面衝到蕭美琴副總統旁邊衝到球員旁邊的時候你們為什麼沒有去幫忙擋"},{"start":438.494,"end":452.828,"text":"雖然是屬於非計劃性的但他的管道不對他沒有有秩序的排列他沒有按照依序走進來的這個情況他是從後面一窩蜂的人突然衝到前面去你們沒有要求他們先往後你們沒有說你們先往後一個一個來"},{"start":454.409,"end":460.15,"text":"特勤人員是這麼好講話的嗎我過去見過都不是這樣欸我見過的特勤人太多了從總統選舉、副總統選舉、馬前總統我從來沒有看過特勤人員這樣子欸用這麼鬆散的態度面對這件事情欸可以給我們的針對執行技巧的部分我們會再要求加強可能真的要很加強欸不然真的你就直接讓一群人就他們也是他們今天如果是壯漢說你們守不住就算了他們有一群就是"},{"start":484.551,"end":494.714,"text":"大媽啊你們特勤人員對他們毫無辦法我真的不解所以我覺得國安局在特勤人員這塊回去真的要鄭重檢討因為我們的國人看了之後都覺得非常傻眼怎麼會有大媽轉過頭來吼特勤人員然後特勤人員就哎呦後退了的情況你們這種情形怎麼讓大家能夠全民能夠相信你們可以保衛中華民國的總統副總統呢所以拜託拜託你回去把整個影片重看"},{"start":514.642,"end":517.526,"text":"從看過之後依序檢討我今天在這裡問有沒有被吼有沒有發生什麼事你們竟然回答不出來所有網友看影片都比你們看得還細代表你們沒有好好檢討今天來就知道應該會被問這個問題所以拜託一下好不好"},{"start":531.024,"end":531.184,"text":"謝謝徐委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":254,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時9分）謝謝主席，我想先請國安局副局長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：副局長請。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：你好。剛才也有委員提到了中華隊選手回臺灣之後的接機維安問題，本席在這邊也有非常多的疑問想就維安的部分去做討論。賴清德總統在11月24號，也就是中華隊奪冠的那一天，他下令什麼？最高規格的接機。國安局有收到這樣子的下令嗎？就賴總統說的最高規格接機，你們知道這件事嗎？你不回答是什麼意思？"],["張副局長元斌：這部分我們特勤中心沒有收到這樣的訊息。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們也不看新聞的是嗎？你們就把它當成一般的接機？"],["張副局長元斌：我們很重視。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們很重視，但是卻沒有聽到我國元首說，這次的接機要用最高規格？你們不知道這件事，對不對？我看你那麼久都沒有回答我，我已經心裡有數了，你也不用再硬想。你剛剛說你不知道嘛，對吧？"],["張副局長元斌：委員，我是說，我們正式的指令是沒有接到，但是我們很重視這次的行動。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們主動很重視，但是你們並不知道我國元首要求這場接機要用最高規格接待，我可以這麼說嗎？我這樣的陳述是事實吧？"],["張副局長元斌：委員，因為這個部分是我們特勤中心在負責的，我是不是請負責的指揮官來回答委員？"],["徐委員巧芯：當然可以，但我要問的是副局長你，因為今天局長不在，不然我想問的是局長。我第一個問題要強調的是，賴總統他說的「最高規格」，國安局在特勤上面到底有沒有接到指示這次要用「最高規格」啦？"],["張副局長元斌：總統說的「最高規格」是指歡迎的規格，但維安有維安的規格……"],["徐委員巧芯：他是說接機要最高規格耶！這當然與維安有實際的連結跟關係啊！"],["張副局長元斌：是，但我們維安有維安的特勤條例……"],["徐委員巧芯：否則民眾當然自己會去，請問最高規格是要怎樣？最高規格在國安局……我就單講你們國安局的維安特勤好了，什麼叫做最高規格？以你們國安跟特勤單位的最高規格來講的話，你們可以做到什麼程度？就是當天那樣的程度就叫做最高規格了嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：總統應該不是指維安的規格啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：他說「接機」，他說的是整個接機的規格都要最高，你們是不是屬於接機裡面的其中一環？你們是不是也等同於要用最高規格來做維安跟特勤？"],["張副局長元斌：是，我們會用我們的……"],["徐委員巧芯：還是你覺得總統講的最高規格是誰？當然，特勤人員也是一個……副總統都要去了，那你維安還不用高規格去，那不是很離譜跟荒謬嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，我們特勤會看現地的情況。"],["徐委員巧芯：現地的情況？現地的情況讓我看到的是，我們蕭美琴副總統後面衝出一群黃衣服的，史稱「黃巾之亂」，這就是你們的最高規格嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：委員，我們是不是請副指揮官對當天的情況估說明？"],["徐委員巧芯：請說、請說。"],["李副指揮官：委員好，剛剛羅委員也提過，所以前面三段我就不講了，我就講兩個重點的部分。第一個，當天到場現勘之後，我們協同6個單位去做整個動線的會勘跟蒞臨場所的會勘。剛剛也解釋過，外面就是指管制區外，它比較有安全顧慮，我們放在管制區內，這個都是經過安檢進到管制區內的，包括下機的人都是經過安檢進到……"],["徐委員巧芯：那一群采盟的人呢？"],["李副指揮官：對。要跟你講的第二個部分是，我們一般合影的儀節分成兩個部分，一個是計畫性的，一個是非計畫性的。非計畫性的就像總統到很多開放的場域，很多熱情的民眾要求，主辦單位跟辦公室的主任或秘書協調，可能會因為很熱情的邀約，會同意他們進入，但是這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是誰同意的？那個黃衣之亂是誰同意讓他們到前面去的？就你們瞭解，主辦單位是誰？誰同意讓你們……"],["李副指揮官：跟委員報告，那天是體育署跟……"],["徐委員巧芯：誰？"],["李副指揮官：體育署跟副總統辦公室，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：體育署跟副總統辦公室認為在這個管制區裡面，采盟的這些黃巾……不要講他們是「黃巾賊」，對不起，應該是黃衣服的人，他們是可以前來拍照的，特勤單位這邊有得到這個許可嗎？"],["李副指揮官：報告委員，這個就是剛剛跟您報告的，分成計畫性跟非計畫性……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，但我在後面那一段。"],["李副指揮官：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啊！因為就算是非計畫性的，也不可能讓所有人擠進來，這仍然有維安的問題啊！"],["李副指揮官：如果委員看到那個片子的前面那段，他們進去拉那個布條的時候，我們維安人員是在旁邊戒護，讓他們安全地拉完布條之後，同意他們進到裡面去合影，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：那是誰同意的？我問的問題是這個。"],["李副指揮官：主辦單位跟副總統辦公室那邊協調的。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以體育署跟副總統辦公室都同意讓這群黃衣服的人在旁邊一起拍照，是這樣嗎？"],["李副指揮官：同意他們進來拍照，但是我們可以從影片看到，他們是從後面一直竄到前面去的，這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，那在這個時候特勤人員為什麼沒有動作？"],["李副指揮官：我們的人……那個都是管制區，經過認證的人……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！是管制區，但是人家往前衝的時候，你們的動作在哪裡？"],["李副指揮官：這個我們會去檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們從影片上面看到的是，黃衣服的人甚至轉過頭來吼我們的維安人員，叫你們退後耶！難道我們的維安人員、特勤人員就是一個大媽叫你們退後你們就退後嗎？"],["李副指揮官：這個我們是沒有……"],["徐委員巧芯：這的話不是很荒唐嗎？從影片中看到的都是這樣欸！你有看到那個影片嗎？"],["李副指揮官：您剛剛提的這一段我沒有看到，但是我們維安人員都在旁邊……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你看！這件事情你們從25號到現在，今天幾號了？都已經過這麼多天，大家都在討論了，你連當天的影片都沒有重新檢討、重新看過，你們連你們的特勤人員被黃衣大媽吼了，你們都不知道？這怎麼可以呢？你們肩負著我們中華隊球員的安全，還肩負著我們蕭美琴副總統的安全，你們在旁邊就只會在那邊看，結果讓人家在那邊推擠、在那邊撞，萬一跌倒了怎麼辦？人家陳傑憲本來是有小朋友的，他找不到他的太太跟他的小孩子，這個這麼混亂的狀況，我們的特勤人員就只是在旁邊看，沒有其他任何可以協助的地方嗎？我也是跟過馬前總統的，沒有看過這樣的維安情況啊！都是事前、當天會隔開人，當有一些人就算要跟馬前總統握手或是有怎樣情況的時候，我國元首的維安是都會去幫忙擋的耶！","今天那群黃衣服的衝到前面、衝到蕭美琴副總統旁邊，衝到球員旁邊的時候，你們為什麼沒有去幫忙擋？雖然這是屬於非計畫性的，但他的管道不對，他沒有有秩序的排列，也沒有依序走進來，而是從後面一窩蜂地衝到前面去，你們沒有要求他們先往後，沒有要他們先往後然後一個一個來，特勤人員是這麼好講話的嗎？我過去見過的都不是這樣欸！我見過的特勤人員太多了，從總統、副總統選舉、馬前總統的維安，我從來沒有看過特勤人員這樣子，用這麼鬆散的態度面對這件事情耶！可以給我們一個……"],["李副指揮官：針對執勤技巧的部分，我們會再要求加強。"],["徐委員巧芯：可能真的要很加強，不然你就是真的讓一群人，如果今天他們是壯漢，你們守不住也就算了，他們只是一群大媽，你們特勤人員卻對他們毫無辦法，我真的不解，所以我覺得國安局在特勤人員這一塊，回去真的要鄭重檢討，因為連我們國人看了之後都覺得非常傻眼，怎麼會有大媽轉過頭來吼特勤人員，然後特勤人員就後退的情況？你們這種情形怎麼讓全民能夠相信你們可以保衛中華民國的總統、副總統呢？所以拜託、拜託，你回去把整個影片重看，重看過之後依序檢討。我今天在這裡問，有沒有被吼、有沒有發生什麼事，你們竟然回答不出來！所有網友看影片都比你們看得還細，代表你們沒有好好檢討。今天來就知道應該會被問這個問題，所以拜託一下好不好？這樣的事真的不能再發生了，大家都覺得非常離譜，所以拜託國安局，你們特勤單位真的……總統都說「最高規格」了，不可以這樣子，謝謝。"],["李副指揮官：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","林憶君","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","林楚茵","羅智強"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、文化部、內政部警政署、大陸委員會報告「從『國有器官』在台播映困境看中\n國對台灣的長臂管轄策略，及我國的因應方案」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00011"}}},{"id":"157475","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157475","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a9ca1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跟委員報告 委員 這個我們等一下 等一下處理的時候再來 再來討論好不好 好啦 這個希望委員支持 這兩個非常重要 我們都不會反對 但我們擔心速度不夠快啊 好不好 那晚點再討論啊謝謝牛旭廷委員的建議非常好齁 我們來一起來支持 謝謝呃 接下來我們請黃建斌委員 黃建斌委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時7分）謝謝主席，管主委有請。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們從預算開始說好了，第一個，本席發現今年度（114年）的預算編列，整個海委會的媒體宣傳費有大幅增加的狀況，113年大概是995萬……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，114年預算大概是多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們大概是二點多倍，三千多萬……"],["牛委員煦庭：3,300萬，這個增幅有點誇張吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為海洋真的在過去大家幾乎完全沒有聲音，我來的時候更少，這是很恐怖的事情。跟委員報告，我們做的民意調查國人在海洋相關的意識，我們國海院院長在，大概只有20%……"],["牛委員煦庭：國海院的宣傳經費增加了6倍。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我跟委員舉一個例子，好不好？譬如說，我們地球的氧氣從海洋製造、生產出來的百分比是多少，有誰知道？有誰知道？我們每呼一口氣、我們每吸一口氣的氧氣，50%來自於海洋。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，你不要拿細節來講這件事，我要知道的是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不、不！跟委員說的就是這些訊息真的太少了，我們要保護海洋是多麼地重要。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要知道的是你的預算暴增3倍，分別是用在哪些地方，你打算做哪些事情，我一定要知道詳細的細項，在預算審查……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是！我們等一下會好好地跟委員做說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：預算審查的時候，逐條逐目要好好做說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，好！"],["牛委員煦庭：但我要講的一個問題是這樣，各個單位其實都有增編宣傳費的狀況，平均攤下來可能金額不是很大，但是有一個問題，我接到投訴，以海巡署來講，海巡工作針對艦隊分署媒體宣傳費用從9萬8,000元變成59萬8,000元，雖然金額很小……"],["管主任委員碧玲：很少、很少。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是問題是這樣，這個經費都是你自己海委會內部自籌，換言之，它是從其他的業務費這裡省一點、那裡扣一點，然後來增加媒體預算經費，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是，因為我們總體預算增加。因為總體預算增加，所以沒有影響到業務。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們這樣說法又不太一樣了！海巡要不要說明一下？"],["房處長銘輝：報告委員，因為整個114年比113年增加五十三點多億。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["房處長銘輝：其實我們的人事費，今年我們也多爭取到1億移充經常門，所以我們給分署的經常門經費是比去年都還多很多啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：確定嗎？"],["房處長銘輝：是！"],["牛委員煦庭：據本席的瞭解，海巡署很多人講是從業務費裡面要節衣縮食扣出來的，我們在問的時候、你們來我辦公室說明的時候，還有講宣傳費用增加，業務費用少一點也沒關係，因為宣傳的效果提升之後，業務的量就會相對減少。你們有人到辦公室跟我講這樣的話，我覺得匪夷所思耶！"],["房處長銘輝：我們分署的經常門經費是比去年（113年）還高。"],["牛委員煦庭：我沒有要問這個，你總經費增加這大家都知道啊！可是問題是各個部門在編列宣傳預算的時候，真的都是用多的經費去編列的嗎？"],["房處長銘輝：沒有啦！因為我們有很多中、長程，還有海巡那些分署有執行的績效，那一部分就要透過宣傳方式讓民眾去瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，宣傳費用的增加跟宣傳量體的增加會減少業務量嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的業務完全沒有受到影響。"],["牛委員煦庭：業務不會變少嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：業務不可能受到影響。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們一定都給同仁有足夠的資源來做事，所以今年我們預算增加的幅度是增加了百分之十九點多。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們大概是很多部會裡面顯著增加的其中一環。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是、是，但是跟委員報告，我們用在海洋的部分還是很少喔！國家整體……"],["牛委員煦庭：到時候在預算審查的時候，我們再來把帳算清楚。第一個，你相對不能夠排擠到各個部門本來的業務預算嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的，一定、一定，是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不能用挪用的方式，或者是苛扣本來的方式，這樣做會寒了基層士氣，反而不好，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個是預算編列，每一個業務的預算編列都要精算。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，宣傳經費你要有明確的KPI，哪些東西做知識性宣導、哪些部分做政策性宣導、哪些部分用在哪些地方？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的credit不錯喔！委員，我過去的執行……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，你的credit不錯，因為你的臉書就很有效果啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是、不是，我過去的執行完全沒有在張揚我個人……"],["牛委員煦庭：你的臉書沒有花多少錢就很有效果，本席倒是鼓勵你多用臉書就好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我完全沒有用來張揚我個人喔！我真的很少、很少，幾乎是拒絕的。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛講，我沒有反對這件事啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：對、對！"],["牛委員煦庭：我說你用你的臉書宣傳效果不錯，你還編那麼多宣傳經費幹什麼呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：差很多欸！委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：你自己的效果很好，可以幫忙節省公帑，我幫你拍拍手啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的臉書效果如果真的好就不會被認知作戰打得那麼慘啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼認知作戰打那麼慘？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，沒有錯，認知作戰真的打得很慘啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是講說，你比如說金門的案子或者是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以這是兩回事……"],["牛委員煦庭：後面搜救的案子……"],["管主任委員碧玲：海委會的媒宣……"],["牛委員煦庭：你臉書的流量都還比較高。"],["管主任委員碧玲：海委會的媒宣是替海洋說話，在內閣裡面排名才第14喔，我們沒有濫編……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，你要講細節跟內容的時候就等一下再來講……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有濫編。"],["牛委員煦庭：等一下預算審查的時候再來講。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你的逐條、逐目的媒體宣傳費，你都要有明確的KPI嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我講的重點是這個，這個你不會反對吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會把它執行得很好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要把它執行好，哪些是知識、哪些東西，這個東西要做清楚的說明，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們絕對是用來宣揚海洋的聲音。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這是媒體預算增加的部分。第二個，你媒體預算增加，但是你的人力却有不足的問題，尤其是海巡的部分……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，軍職的人力。"],["牛委員煦庭：近年海巡署人力的預算員額其實是逐步來增加，從110年1萬1,840，預算員額到了113年8月底已經到1萬2,605，也就是說，基本上大家都會鼓勵你多去找人去執行海巡的業務，因為海巡本來就很血汗，可是問題是你的實際員額110年是1萬1,533人，到了113年8月底，不但沒有跟著預算員額增加，你反而減少，給你開的缺增加，結果你實際聘用的人減少，那是不是人力缺口越來越大，為什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，少子化是國軍跟海巡共同面臨的問題，我們不斷地在克服，像今年我們至少招募到六百多個人在受訓，但是每一年也都有離退，每一年會有新的招募，中間還是會有落差，因為海巡真的畢竟是很辛苦，連起跳4萬元都不可能，因為是軍職，我們必須跟國軍一樣，這一點我就一直努力，可是沒辦法突破。三萬多元的薪水對基層的海巡弟兄來講，有時候他們去7-ELEVEN更自由，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們其實有針對這個原因做調查，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個原因叫做生涯規劃，第二個原因叫工作不自由，工作不自由大家都知道，但是這是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：24小時在營區。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是這是工作的特性，這沒有辦法……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，守護國安。"],["牛委員煦庭：生涯規劃的詳細問題是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我替他們打通了升遷的管道，我增加了士官的編制員額，讓他們有升遷的管道。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在不是問你做了什麼，我現在要聽的是基層的聲音，因為這是你自己內部的調查。你內部針對你海巡基層的調查，他們講生涯規劃有問題，請問他們反映的問題是什麼？是升遷管道太窄，還是換軌不易，還是有什麼別的理由，你要不要詳細說明一下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想都是問題，換軌的問題還有升遷的問題，那升遷我逐步地在……"],["牛委員煦庭：來。"],["管主任委員碧玲：而且還有加給的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：加給的問題、待遇的問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你把生涯規劃相關的問題，這本席就有興趣，這不只是海巡的問題，也是國軍的問題，生涯規劃他們基層心裡在想什麼……"],["管主任委員碧玲：譬如通訊的自由也沒有，然後……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們這一份詳細的調查報告你會後附啦！好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：再來，薪酬的部分……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝您那麼關心我們的基層。"],["牛委員煦庭：國軍現在研議加給，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：國軍研議加給，你們要跟著加給，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不斷地……是，甚至於警察的夜間加給，我們到現在也還爭取不到啊！我就覺得很氣餒啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：你們自己心裡有沒有……像國防部心裡已經有一個數字。"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以希望委員給我力量，我們一起……"],["牛委員煦庭：國防部心裡有一個數字，就是要加到多少才夠，你們海委會心中有沒有一個數字？就以你海巡署，你要讓你的員額補滿……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們必須跟它一模一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要去管說……你先……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我很簡單……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在跟你談的問題是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：起薪4萬是我需要的。"],["牛委員煦庭：你先聽我把問題講完嘛！我現在問題是人家國防部站在國軍弟兄基層的角度去做了調查，他們有一個理想的狀況，然後去提行政院討論，你海巡署也一樣，即便現在的制度規範它是一樣……"],["管主任委員碧玲：有，我們好多的案都在跟人總交流。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是你還是要問，你才知道要怎麼反映，到了這個平台你才可以跟國防部共同商量跟爭取，如果你只是講說你跟軍人一樣，所以就被動等待國防部，那這個問題不會解決，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會，國軍也沒辦法像我要求起薪4萬，但是我就是一直不斷地在要求……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你心裡的數字是4萬，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：起薪。"],["牛委員煦庭：起薪是4萬，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：起薪4萬，然後還有加給……"],["牛委員煦庭：就我了解，你這比國防部還保守。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不，國防部連這個都還沒有辦法跟我們討論……"],["牛委員煦庭：哪還沒有辦法，他們都是加1萬起跳，都在做規劃啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果是加給是另一回事，加給有加給的額度，我們也有很多的加給。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席的意思是說，我要提醒主委，你要有所主張啦！你的主張大膽沒有關係，因為你就是海委會主委，你就要幫海巡弟兄講話，那是你的工作……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，沒有錯，一定的。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以不要有那麼多包袱，該去主張就去主張，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：尤其是委員的督促也是我們的力量，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦，其他的今天因為時間有限，還有本席也關心114年到117年你們有所謂救生救難的裝備籌補計畫……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個很重要，請委員支持。"],["牛委員煦庭：還有裝備汰換的中程計畫，你本來都從114年起編，但是到現在為止我都沒有在預算書裡面看到整包計畫的說明，原因是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的預算沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：大家都支持你們增加裝備，這全世界都贊成。"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們說有說明，我們等一下會好好地說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們有來跟我說明，他們說114年起編，但今年是分散在各個部門，這樣很奇怪啊！你這個計畫是什麼時候做完的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告……"],["主席：牛委員，這個我們等一下處理的時候再來討論，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦，這個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝，希望委員支持，這兩個非常重要。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們都不會反對，但我們擔心速度不夠快，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，好，我們會做很好的說明。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：那晚點再討論。"],["主席：謝謝，牛煦庭委員的建議非常好，我們一起支持，謝謝。","接下來我們請黃建賓委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-12","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","張智倫","王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","吳琪銘","羅智強","丁學忠","許宇甄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政\n府總預算案關於海洋委員會部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於海洋委員會海巡署及\n所屬、海洋委員會海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院部分；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬\n單位預算非營業部分關於海洋委員會主管特別收入基金─ 海洋污染防治基金","agenda_id":"11310602_00001"}}},{"id":"157473","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157473","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177ae77851d12b7331659efc61e85f95edfbe54b9bd157483afa091ed520d06e93fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:06:35 - 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我知道委員很關心這個事情 我當然跟委員報告 我們加速蓋燃氣就是要提早污煤"},{"start":479.446,"end":485.953,"text":"那個燃煤機組是放在那邊做緊急備用的嗎?我就是問到 經濟使用現在會變成常態化嗎?不會啦 絕對不會 我跟你保證不會絕對不可能把它常態化因為剛剛是緊急機組他一年就是限制發電時間只有720小時而且台電至今為止"},{"start":503.01,"end":503.23,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":524.591,"end":531.059,"text":"我剛才說台電現在沒有標準是這樣,那天也很多利潤期,利潤期也希望我們快點動作,因為現在開始蓋,我們其實看到這幾年,臺中火力發電廠已經減了600萬噸的燃煤量,我們如果新的機組起來我們會儘快減,只要調度可行我們一定馬上減。"},{"start":544.181,"end":544.361,"text":"請政政權委員執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時6分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。主席，有請主計處、經濟部還有台電。"],["主席：好，主計處、經濟部還有台電。"],["顏委員寬恒：各位好。我先請教經濟部連次長，台電從2023年到明年總計已經取得5,000億的撥補，但是這個財務黑洞補不完，越補越大，經濟部也說明年還是會虧損，如果沒有撥補的話，虧損會更大，這次的追加預算撥補1,000億後，仍然會虧損566億，明年總預算再撥補1,000億，虧損大約會是在444億，這部分我想提醒經濟部還有台電，你們能不能精確地去控管成本？採購的部分，你們的材料是不是便宜？民間購電的部分，你們的成本有沒有辦法壓低？還有虧損的原因到底是什麼？能不能提早計算國際原物料成本？還有最重要的就是經營模式。其實這幾大點都攸關我們國人，因為民眾最關心的就是漲價，台電今年已經漲了兩次，明年電價會不會漲？這是一個問號，你這一邊漲電價，那一邊拿政府的預算撥補，這樣一邊漲價一邊拿百姓的納稅錢，這樣對嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，剛剛講的虧損566億，如果有1,000億撥補完之後，是可以盈餘434億，但是如果沒有這1,000億進來，是會虧損566億。還有台電的整個財務，我們現在已經答應年底會把財務報告送到大院。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，預算是人民的錢，現在你用撥補1,000億，明年又1,000億，這些錢都是我們的納稅錢，台電漲人民的電價，你漲了電價又要撥補，你乾脆不要漲電價，直接撥補就好了嘛！直接把你的虧損由政府的預算來撥補，這樣不就好了嗎？對不對？你兩手策略，這一邊漲電價，這一邊又撥補，你又不是電價漲了就不用撥補了，漲了電價之後，把這些虧損都直接體現在電價上面就好了嘛！但不是，你是這邊漲價，那邊撥補，我認為不能這樣做啦！","另外，我請教主計長，預算中心提到這一次追加1,000億撥補台電，是因為國際原物料成本上漲，還有就是穩定物價、照顧民生、弱勢等等，所以吸收用電成本所需的經費來追加預算。既然政府編了1,000億來補助，那你能不能現在就告訴我們說明年絕對不會漲價？可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，漲價不漲價要由電價委員會去做決定，這個部分，譬如說台電吸收民生物價的部分就有2,800億，這2,800億它都沒有漲，因為民生電費是沒有漲的；至於產業的部分，它吸收4,000億，這兩年它就吸收六千八百多億，所以它虧損四千多億。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，所以我的意思是，你這邊漲電價就漲足嘛！你漲足就不用撥補了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是民生電價的部分是不漲的部分，所以這個部分就變成它要吸收。"],["顏委員寬恒：那就告訴民眾說到底我們電價應該多少錢才算合理啊！你現在用這些補，你不得罪我，然後你那邊又拿政府的預算、拿我們的納稅錢來補……"],["陳主計長淑姿：它現在每度電就虧1塊錢。"],["顏委員寬恒：虧多少是你們講的嘛！你們用成本貴的電，然後政府再拿民眾的納稅錢，這邊要掏腰包來付漲出來的電費，那邊又拿我們的稅款、我們繳稅的錢來補貼，對不對？這樣不是一樣，你們就是兩套手法嘛，對不對？我跟你講，其實台電要怎麼樣去控管成本，這是你們的專業，我們要的就是，第一個，電要夠用，電要盡可能地便宜，這就是我們民眾要的。另外，你漲的部分，你現在撥補這1,000億，明年再1,000億，你又不能告訴我們說明年不漲價，不然要撥補多少才可以不漲價，可不可以告訴我們？要補多少啦？明年預算要編多少才可以不要漲價？"],["連次長錦漳：因為這個是電價審議委員會根據當年或是前一年的燃料還有國際情勢去做分析評估的。"],["顏委員寬恒：那你能不能預期先告訴我們，讓我們有個心理準備啊！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我是台電董事長，我們每次去電價委員會審查的時候，政府有沒有補助都會是委員會審查的重要考量，包含這一次今年度的民生都沒有漲，也是因為政府有編了這1,000億的預算，所以民生部分今年沒有做調整，所以立法院通過這筆預算絕對會是電價審議委員會重要的考量根據。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我可以預期說，每一年撥補的金額會不斷地上漲，為了不讓電價調漲，是不是這樣子？"],["曾董事長文生：其實是這樣子，委員，我這樣跟您說明……"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，你就承諾，不然就請次長跟董事長你們來承諾，為了要抑制電價上漲，拜託中央政府的預算每一年撥補到讓台電不漲電價。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，這個可能也沒辦法這樣運作，因為審議委員會不會同意我們這樣子，我真的是要跟您報告，因為電價的調整會跟著國際價格有一些波動，這個是一定有的，不要讓它劇烈波動就是政府補貼的重要原因，我想這一點要請委員體諒。"],["顏委員寬恒：電價，明年不能再漲，這是第一個，你們今年撥補的部分，其實到明年底已經超過5,000億了……"],["曾董事長文生：還有2,000億沒確定……"],["顏委員寬恒：這個部分，我跟你講……"],["曾董事長文生：這2,000億正在審。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，我要告訴你們，對於電價的上漲還有政府的撥補我們都非常有意見，也不能接受。","另外就是臺中的火力發電廠，中火原來答應民眾了，建一座、拆一座，然後增燃氣、減燃煤，無煤的趨勢是世界趨勢，但是我們知道那天臺中環評委員會審查會，民眾也到現場來抗議，他們就是希望政府履行承諾，增燃氣、減燃煤，要把退役的燃煤拆除，但是政府……"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，我知道委員很關心這件事情，我簡單跟委員報告一下，我們加速蓋燃氣就是要提早無煤，燃煤機組是放在那邊做緊急備用……"],["顏委員寬恒：對嘛，現在就是……"],["曾董事長文生：我們就是為了……"],["顏委員寬恒：緊急使用會變成常態化嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：不會。"],["顏委員寬恒：不會？"],["曾董事長文生：絕對不會，我跟你保證。"],["顏委員寬恒：你保證？"],["曾董事長文生：絕對不會，不可能把它常態化，光是緊急機組一年限制發電時間就只有720小時，而且台電至今為止也都沒有用超過100個小時，所以這個一定要跟您報告，不會這樣子的，真的不會這樣。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，要履行政府的承諾啦，增燃氣、減燃煤，那些燃煤的機組……"],["曾董事長文生：是，我們現在就在做這件事。"],["顏委員寬恒：這是地方的心聲，也是中部人的心聲。"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，我們趕快把燃氣的機組做一做，接著就把燃煤停下來，簡單來說，現在台電的目標就是這樣，那天有很多里長去，里長也希望我們趕快開始動作，從現在開始改，其實看到這幾年，台中火力發電廠已經減了600萬噸的燃煤量，如果新的機組起來，我們會儘快減，只要調度可行，我們一定馬上減，這個要跟委員拜託，請你支持。"],["顏委員寬恒：承諾就是要算數、要做到，這樣好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：是啊，我們一定是這樣子的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝寬恒委員。","接著請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":96,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","陳玉珍","陳亭妃","黃珊珊","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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這個時候我們相關的單位就有責任我們看 所謂的介入其實很多種像這個是一個判例嘛 收受中國7400萬的資金然後介入台灣選舉 這個是統促黨的幹部張孟崇那統促黨也被內政部申請解散了那另外呢 寄送所謂的恐嚇"},{"start":348.736,"end":370.733,"text":"我看國安局寫的是28案那剛才警政署說是30案因為我們時間是到11月22號所以22號就多兩案出來到26號那這恐嚇除了電影院以外我看到有高雄市議會、彰化縣議會也被恐嚇嘛那還有沒有其他公署剛才文化部也講文化部也被恐嚇了還有沒有其他的公家機關"},{"start":372.345,"end":396.294,"text":"我們的資料是有,但那個委員會因為手邊沒有在手上我看一下還有其他公家機關嗎?像彰化縣議彰化縣議會高雄市議會然後文化部剛剛提的還有就是"},{"start":398.686,"end":421.272,"text":"行事局等下要查辦的行事局他也是恐嚇對象桃園市還有台北市的影城這一些被恐嚇的對象我相信行事局不會因為被恐嚇就停止偵辦但是一般的人民團體、公司、行號、組織可能會因為被恐嚇他就"},{"start":422.622,"end":442.075,"text":"他為了保護自己也不為過但原來正常的活動就被限縮了我們看曾經發生過的像黃之鋒來台灣的時候從下機場的第一天就被監控監控人是大喇喇的兩人一組然後甚至於還要去毆打"},{"start":442.895,"end":465.722,"text":"另外你再看這個是香港的歌手何韻詩直接在凱道上面被撥紅漆執行的都是特定幫派特定政黨人士還有啊像深淵反送中的餐廳被撥廢物啊還有啊這個港人在西門町舉辦這個對中國國慶的不同意見的活動"},{"start":470.796,"end":499.399,"text":"中國用中國旅客後來查出來他的路徑的理由根本不符合去現場嗆聲啊這一種東西都屬於很多樣態我會要求國安局你要把這些樣態分類然後去對照一些在國際上發生的事項如果這些樣態有現有法律可以去執行賀祖你要去執行如果法律有不足的話你們要提出修法的建議所以我最後要請這個"},{"start":501.24,"end":525.472,"text":"文化部跟這個警政署一起上來透過非法手段侵害我國主權傷害我國的司法管轄權影響我們正常的活動甚至於民主活動去威脅去影響去嚇阻一般人民公私行號社團組織媒體的正常活動這是我們不容忍的我相信各位都點頭都說對嘛"},{"start":527.472,"end":551.616,"text":"那現在像以國有器官這齣電影我再強調一次這個紀錄片大家對它評價如何要不要去看我沒有意見那是人的自由選擇有人要看有人不看自由選擇可是當它上映卻因為恐嚇事件它的上映方式被扭曲改變了連高雄市議會彰化縣議會說要播也被恐嚇了"},{"start":553.666,"end":582.81,"text":"我們如果讓這種方式達成效果甚至於形成剛才羅美玲委員講的自我審查以前我們講說心中小警種現在變心中有小公安欸就不敢動的話我國就被實質的傷害影響所以國安局跟文化部跟警政署有沒有辦法確保至少要有一家這樣子的放映的院線願意正常進行而我們又能確保他的安全有沒有辦法這樣做"},{"start":585.357,"end":613.339,"text":"報委員我先跟委員報告等一下那個我待會請文化部簡單的好這個部分確實是我們國安團隊的責任這要確保我們國人的安全放心不要像這種恐嚇案件造成現在都不播啦因為被恐嚇都不播啦所以我們國安團隊會持續的掌收這樣的一個恐嚇的情訊也有警調機關會進行查處跟巡檢確保這樣的一個安全適時的揭露這樣的一個"},{"start":613.639,"end":639.785,"text":"你確保安全之後,他還是不播啊?文化部,我們能不能不被這種訊息去傷害?哪怕播了沒有人要買票看,那是市場機制自動下線啊?根文報,目前正常上映的戲院還有6家,其他所謂的提早下檔,其實是改為包場的方式,所以他其實都還是看得到。他改為包場,他比較能夠控制現場的安全,那但是6家都還是正常上映。警政署,我們可以確保這些播放院線的安全嗎?"},{"start":641.349,"end":662.318,"text":"當然沒有問題如果說有情資進來或是事先的預防我們都可以做票房不好下線OK啦好萊塢電影票房不好也該下線但不能因為被這種恐嚇而被提早下線這是不對的我們要保護正常活動的安全不被這種境外這樣的訊息傷害好不好請各位加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":207,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩國安局副局長。"],["主席：國安局張副局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：副局長跟各位列席的官員，我們在討論這個議題之前可能要把一些概念先釐清楚，第一個，所謂用非法的手段長臂管轄去傷害我國主權、侵害我們司法管轄權，通常指的是政治類的案件，以及使用的是非法的手段，跟一般的刑事犯罪、洗錢、詐欺、金融犯罪的司法互助，這兩個是不一樣的東西，我覺得這個概念要先講清楚，否則我們跟很多國家都有在合作，不管是國際防堵詐欺犯、人蛇集團，那個都要跨國大家來合作，那是司法機關基於互助，各自的司法主權去協助彼此阻卻刑事犯罪，跟阻卻言論、傷害民運人士或者政治類的案件，然後透過非法的手段，這兩個是不一樣，如果把它混為一談，形塑好像大家都有在幹這個事情的話，我覺得會把焦點整個模糊掉。","第一個，我們來看中國在海外曾經兩度……我判斷這個專案還在，你有聽過fox hunting（獵狐專案），有沒有聽過？"],["張副局長元斌：有，有聽過。"],["王委員定宇：獵狐2014專項行動，這是中共的國安部跟公安局進行的，根據獵狐後來才有所謂的海外公安、海外警察等等的配屬作業，在中國公安部有一個912專項工作小組，它負責的是監控在海外的中國人、監控在海外的重要的政治人物，包含他國，甚至於誘捕、威逼，甚至還有一些自殺案件，這個狀況不管是誘捕、監控或恐嚇，請問一下國安局，目前臺灣有沒有類似的情形？他也許不敢明目張膽用所謂的海外公安、海外警察，或者在臺灣執行什麼樣的專案，你們目前有沒有看到類似的樣態在臺灣發生過？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，我們有關注，他有試圖在我們國內發展組織，但是還沒有看到類似剛剛委員所提的這種現象。"],["王委員定宇：恐嚇的情形有沒有？"],["張副局長元斌：還沒有。"],["王委員定宇：有啊！我待會兒舉例子給你看啦！只是他不是像海外用公安人員。你看今天美國發布一個新聞，這是美國公民喔！這個美國公民直接接受中國國安部委託，去監控在中國海外的異議人士、民運人士、法輪功成員等等，那美國逮捕他之後，因為美國有代理人法，以他沒有去登記通報自己成為外國政府的代理人，最高可以判處15年徒刑，他現在一審被判4年有期徒刑，你們知道這個案子嘛！所以他不僅僅會運用他自己的海外公安，他有時候也會運用在他國的公民來進行所謂的監控，所以我再問一次，在臺灣有沒有類似獵狐專案專項行動，然後對我們在臺灣的民運人士、香港異議人士、在臺灣我們應該保護的、嫁來臺灣的……中國新娘嫁來臺灣是我們國人喔！被恐嚇、被監控、被誘捕，有沒有類似的情形？"],["張副局長元斌：目前我們觀察到是會透過一些協力者在臺做滋擾的行為。"],["王委員定宇：在臺灣是有滋擾行為嘛！然後我們在海外的我國公民，有沒有被獵狐專項行動或者相關的海外公安部進行監控過，你們有沒有掌握這個情形？"],["張副局長元斌：目前我們掌握是有這種現象，尤其他們會運用……其實中共在外面的人員，他有肩負這種監控跟滋擾的任務。"],["王委員定宇：這題我問過僑委會，我們在國外的我國僑民，事實上有被他們海外公安或類似的手段監控或騷擾過，甚至於上一次貴局的局長，前任局長去泰國進關的時候，那個影像被拿出來，其實都是類似的樣態。","我們今天談「國有器官」這部電影，它不僅是一部電影，這部電影的內容不是我要討論的重點，一部電影要不要去看，一個紀錄片你要不要去看，那是人的選擇，但是如果中國透過恐嚇的方式，讓我們自我審查不敢播，不敢讓它上映，這個時候他就達到實質的效果，我們等於在鼓勵他繼續用這種恐嚇的方式，這一次是一齣電影，下一次呢？一場選舉呢？一場民主活動呢？如果他可以用恐嚇的方式，讓我們正常的活動沒辦法正常進行的時候，這個時候我們相關的單位就有責任。","所謂的介入其實有很多種，像這個是一個判例，收受中國7,400萬的資金，然後介入臺灣選舉，這個是統促黨的幹部張孟崇，統促黨也被內政部申請解散了。另外，寄送所謂的恐嚇，我看國安局寫的是28案，剛才警政署說是30案。"],["張副局長元斌：跟委員報告，因為我們時間是到11月22號。"],["王委員定宇：對，22號就多2案出來。"],["張副局長元斌：到26號。"],["王委員定宇：這些恐嚇除了電影院以外，我看到高雄市議會、彰化縣議會也被恐嚇嘛！"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["王委員定宇：還有沒有其他公署？剛剛文化部也講文化部被恐嚇了，還有沒有其他的公家機關？"],["張副局長元斌：我們的資料是有，但因為資料沒有在手上。"],["王委員定宇：還有其他公家機關嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：像彰化縣議……"],["王委員定宇：彰化縣議會？"],["張副局長元斌：對。"],["王委員定宇：高雄市議會。"],["張副局長元斌：高雄市議會，然後文化部剛剛提的，還有就是刑事局。"],["王委員定宇：連要查辦的刑事局也是恐嚇對象？"],["張副局長元斌：對。桃園市，還有臺北市的影城。"],["王委員定宇：這一些被恐嚇的對象，我相信刑事局不會因為被恐嚇就停止偵辦。"],["張副局長元斌：是。"],["王委員定宇：但是一般的人民團體、公司行號、組織，可能會因為被恐嚇，他為了保護自己也不為過，但原來正常的活動就被限縮了。我們看曾經發生過的，像黃之鋒來臺灣的時候，從下機場的第一天就被監控，監控人是大喇喇的2人一組，然後甚至於還要去毆打。另外，你再看香港的歌手何韻詩，直接在凱道上面被潑紅漆，執行的都是特定幫派、特定政黨人士。還有像聲援反送中的餐廳被潑穢物，還有港人在西門町舉辦對中國國慶不同意見的活動，中國用中國旅客去現場嗆聲，後來查出來他入境的理由根本不符合。這種東西都屬於很多樣態，我會要求國安局，你要把這些樣態分類，然後去對照一些在國際上發生的事項，如果這些樣態有現有法律可以去執行、嚇阻，你要去執行，如果法律有不足的話，你們要提出修法的建議。","我最後要請文化部跟警政署一起上來，透過非法手段侵害我國主權，傷害我國的司法管轄權，影響我們正常的活動，甚至於民主活動，去威脅、去影響、去嚇阻一般人民、公司行號、社團組織、媒體的正常活動，這是我們不容忍的，我相信各位都點頭，都說對嘛！現在以「國有器官」這齣電影為例，我再強調一次，這個紀錄片大家對它評價如何，要不要去看，我沒有意見，那是人的自由選擇，有人要看有人不看，自由選擇，可是當它上映卻因為恐嚇的事件，它的上映方式被扭曲改變了，連高雄市議會、彰化縣議會說要播也被恐嚇了，我們如果讓這種方式達成效果，甚至於形成剛才羅美玲委員講的自我審查，以前我們講說心中小警總，現在變心中有小公安耶！就不敢動的話，我國就被實質的傷害影響，所以國安局跟文化部跟警政署，有沒有辦法確保至少要有一家這樣子放映的院線願意正常進行，而我們又能確保他的安全，有沒有辦法這樣做？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，我先跟委員報告，等一下……"],["王委員定宇：我待會兒請文化部。"],["張副局長元斌：這個部分確實是我們國安團隊的責任，要確保我們國人的安全、放心，不要讓這種恐嚇案件造成心裡的……"],["王委員定宇：可是他現在都不播了，因為他被恐嚇了，然後都不播了。"],["張副局長元斌：所以我們國安團隊會持續掌蒐這樣的一個恐嚇的情訊，也有警調機關會進行查處跟巡檢，確保這樣的一個安全，事實的揭露這樣的一個情形。"],["王委員定宇：你確保安全之後，他還是不播啊！文化部，我們能不能不被這種訊息去傷害？哪怕播了沒有人要買票看，那個是市場機制自動下線。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，目前正常上映的戲院還有6家，而其他所謂的提早下檔，其實是改為包場的方式，所以其實都還是看得到，改為包場，他比較能夠控制現場的安全，但是6家都還是正常上映。"],["王委員定宇：警政署，我們可以確保這些播放院線的安全嗎？"],["李副署長正曉：當然沒有問題，如果說有情資進來或是事先的預防，我們都可以做。"],["王委員定宇：票房不好，下線OK啦！好萊塢電影票房不好也該下線，但不能因為被這種恐嚇而被提早下線，這是不對的，我們要保護正常活動的安全，不被這種境外這樣的訊息傷害，好不好？請各位加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委。","有請徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-18","speakers":["王定宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","林憶君","楊瓊瓔","馬文君","林楚茵","羅智強"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-11-27"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、文化部、內政部警政署、大陸委員會報告「從『國有器官』在台播映困境看中\n國對台灣的長臂管轄策略，及我國的因應方案」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310501_00011"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}