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兵安置基金24案,增列6千萬元,各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?沒有意見,好,我們再次通過。25案,增列5千萬元,各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?沒有意見,通過。26案,改組決議,有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。27案,改組決議,有意見嗎?通過。28案,改組決議,有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。29案,改組決議,"},{"start":2670.421,"end":2692.387,"text":"通過三十案改組決議通過三十一案改組決議通過三十二案測案三十三案文字修正組決議大家有意見嗎?沒意見通過三十四案改組決議有意見嗎?沒有意見我們通過好謝謝顏主委開心謝謝微笑離開謝謝換場好國安部顧部長到了嗎?好謝謝"},{"start":2699.824,"end":2699.844,"text":"好,請換場,謝謝。"},{"start":2715.834,"end":2741.594,"text":"好,謝謝國防部的顧部長,謝謝喔。當部長幾個月工作壓力大喔,走路都變得比較慢了。哈哈哈哈,坐坐坐坐坐。好,熱情歡迎我們國防部顧部長。我們國防部楊次長,熱情歡迎。組織局的謝局長,熱情歡迎,請坐。我們各位黨團幹部,我們進入國防部所使的國軍生產及服務作業基金第一案改組決議,大家有意見嗎?"},{"start":2742.796,"end":2763.661,"text":"委員通過第二案改組決議,通過第三案組決議,通過第四案改組決議,通過第五案組決議,通過第六案組決議,通過第七案組決議,通過第八案組決議,通過第九案組決議,"},{"start":2764.994,"end":2788.965,"text":"通過第十四案改組決議,大家有寶貴意見嗎?沒有意見。通過第十二案文字修正組決議,大家有意見嗎?沒有意見。通過第十三案組決議,通過第十四案改組決議,有意見嗎?沒有意見。通過第十五案簡列三百萬,請王定宇委員請發言。"},{"start":2791.499,"end":2791.719,"text":"國安部請說明"},{"start":2817.956,"end":2824.71,"text":"本案依委員提案辦理,更請委員指導。本項是行政事務管理的服務會,是資訊的部分。以上報告"},{"start":2826.885,"end":2846.617,"text":"我這邊大概補充一下,這個案子是賴氏堡委員針對營改基金的服務費用,這個項目我們編了4655萬,最主要是聘僱人員的薪資以及我們修理跟巡管相關營地的一些相關的費用"},{"start":2848.038,"end":2851.68,"text":"請問一下,你們今年編列4650萬,請問一下到目前為止執行的情況?到目前為止我們的執行大概之前73200萬"},{"start":2874.082,"end":2885.078,"text":"三千兩百萬,對不對?是的所以還有一千四百萬還沒有辦法執行就是十一跟十二月這兩個月要執行那所以三減三百萬有問題嗎?"},{"start":2887.725,"end":2913.216,"text":"到年底的執行率?對阿 沒問題 國安部說明 不用客氣 請說明是 如果說到年度結束 呃 檢列300萬的話目前 按照我們目前來推估 應該是還可以在這個負擔範圍內 但是如果說可以 額度可以所以應該OK啦 就跟昨天的很多的狀況是一樣 他執行不完的 其實還提高你的執行率勒 是不是"},{"start":2916.398,"end":2934.477,"text":"會長各位黨團不同的意見跟國安部的說法我想我們就第15案我們簡列300萬於通過第16案改組決議大家有包括意見嗎?沒意見我們照案通過第17案改組決議有意見嗎?沒意見我們通過照案通過18案改組決議有意見嗎?沒意見照案通過第19案改組決議"},{"start":2935.572,"end":2936.693,"text":"謝謝國安部顧部長,請保持微笑,請離開,謝謝換場。下面請經濟委員會。好,謝謝,謝謝,謝謝大家。好,謝謝啊。"},{"start":2973.574,"end":2973.595,"text":"經濟委員會"},{"start":2993.049,"end":2993.83,"text":"國際發展委員會 劉祖偉農業部陳部長"},{"start":3026.425,"end":3027.867,"text":"公平交易委員會李主委"},{"start":3049.324,"end":3075.275,"text":"各位黨團幹部,我們第一案本期剩餘現在國民黨團賴斯堡為期增列兩議員。各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見?沒有意見,好,我們通過。第二案,各項同志並...他們不用說明一下嗎?要說明一下,我們召委在這邊。好,劉主委,請。邱志偉,早幾位要講話嗎?好,我們請劉主委,請。"},{"start":3079.926,"end":3085.372,"text":"關於這一點我們可以遵照辦理。這個事實上在今年3月25號跟4月10號對珍貴國發基金有充分討論"},{"start":3098.342,"end":3120.941,"text":"那組成的這個成員國民黨六席、民黨六席、民黨一席那時候的針對剩餘我們都有達成共識所以我想為什麼這個有六位國民黨的經營委員會的委員都同意那時候都照原列數那突然那時候委員"},{"start":3123.164,"end":3138.232,"text":"對要增列兩億那國安基金是不是國安會是不是真的可以達成這個啊國安會真的可以嗎這個我們會來努力的嘿"},{"start":3139.735,"end":3153.907,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員的發言我們第一個案我們就針對兩議員謝謝第二案請問各位委員意見有沒有寶貴意見並委員會決議請問各位委員有沒有寶貴意見各項投資沒有意見我們請王虹委員請發言我們請邱志偉委員請回答請"},{"start":3168.24,"end":3185.456,"text":"那時候的召委不是我,那是上位起,但是我一樣可以回答,那時候委員會審查是凍結各項投資一億元,那你現在如果蘇英權委員也同意,國民黨黨團也同意說併委會局域,那我們就按照委員會審查的結論,凍結各項投資一億元。"},{"start":3190.224,"end":3219.211,"text":"理解,就是並凍結各項投資一億元嗎?對!對!對!好的!謝謝!謝謝!第三項,我們兩案,我們就凍結各項投資一億元。我們通過第四案到第十一案,並案處理。有第四案是投資,投融資業務成本,投資業務成本,檢列兩千萬,凍結七千三百零二萬一千元。"},{"start":3221.352,"end":3228.797,"text":"第四案到十一案其實是同樣的本體,針對投資業務成本的相次。我們也希望遵照委員會的決議,因為委員會已經凍結整體的融資"},{"start":3245.928,"end":3257.916,"text":"的業務成本是5%（所以我希望就是就像上面兩項一樣委員會有清楚的凍結數那就並凍然後這些第四到十一應當是一致的處理這樣"},{"start":3260.339,"end":3280.553,"text":"好,謝謝吳思瑤委員發言。麥玉珍委員請發言,邱志文委員請準備。好,謝謝主席。我們的台灣民眾黨45678914,我們是照我們的全數簡列還有其他的就是照我們倡辦的決定處理。沒有變。對。沒錯沒錯。"},{"start":3292.131,"end":3314.835,"text":"對謝謝邱志偉委員請發言這個院長各位同仁我想這個提案基本上似曾相識我都看過提案內容兩位民眾黨的協商代表都不在張其凱在同樣3月25我們經過詢答4月10號逐案處理這個你們提的案子跟3月25提的案子一模一樣我們張其凱也同意"},{"start":3318.786,"end":3343.259,"text":"然後委員會十三個委員、跨黨派都有這個共識我們經過好久的討論也經過詢答這審訊上一切都完備你們有代償委員你去問張熙海委員在不在他在啊他也同意啊那你們提案的內容跟3月20號提案的內容是一模一樣啊那為什麼那時候你們可以同意為什麼突然這個協商的時候突然有你說倉辦倉辦是什麼意思什麼倉辦我立法院有倉辦這個東西啊"},{"start":3350.269,"end":3350.329,"text":"委員會組織法"},{"start":3367.54,"end":3394.741,"text":"而且重點是貴黨還有委員在啊也是一樣提案,提案都沒有變啊為什麼你現在立場又變了好謝謝謝謝邱志偉、麥義正委員請發言王文維請準備好謝謝我們主席齁因為呢我們是委員會審查今天是我們協商嘛對不對我們委員會審查各個委員都可以有意見我們協商就是我們黨團大家一起討論"},{"start":3396.122,"end":3396.262,"text":"以上,謝謝。"},{"start":3423.268,"end":3426.073,"text":"不要擔心,你表現比你們總召好,非常好,加油!"},{"start":3429.4,"end":3458.744,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想就說我們從第四案到第十一案我們那個也有各個委員的提案比如說我們林思明書記長也有提案那我必須要講就是說在這個預算的這個審查的過程裡面委員會當然非常重要所以我們會尊重委員會但是我們在整個預算審查的程序上本來就應該尊重各委員的提案權嘛"},{"start":3459.364,"end":3471.743,"text":"我想大家都是很資深的委員應該很清楚我們整個預算審查的程序也就是說尊重委員會的一個討論但是我們也要尊重各個委員會各個委員的提案權"},{"start":3475.067,"end":3475.908,"text":"另外,黨團也有提案權"},{"start":3489.741,"end":3491.443,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員的發言請吳世耀委員請發言"},{"start":3513.452,"end":3539.368,"text":"謝謝院長我記得昨天院長在第一天國營事業協商的時候開宗明義的前提就是希望大家如果委員會已經有共識的話尊重委員會的共識這是院長第一個才是這也是符合慣例跟程序經濟委員會我們剛剛的招募已經說明了部分黨派13位委員在經濟委員會共同做出的決議也應當被尊重"},{"start":3540.168,"end":3542.51,"text":"當然我們尊重黨團和個別委員的意見可是剛剛邱昭惠有清楚的說明經過兩天的漫長的討論大家做出來並動5%的共識而今天所謂民眾黨的倡辦提出來再來"},{"start":3556.458,"end":3571.874,"text":"做出修正意見的內容的提案（跟委員會提的案子是一模一樣（您如果有不同的新的意見（那你可以提新生事務來說服大家（您用同樣的理由在委員會討論了兩天（部分黨派的委員獲得共識之後（現在倡辦好大（"},{"start":3578.581,"end":3604.216,"text":"一個倡辦用來推翻了大家的意見齊凱委員到了您也在經濟委員會嘛我們希望倡辦也要尊重齊凱委員然後尊重經濟委員會的委員大家互相尊重如果有新生事物以實質來講內容說服得了大家當然朝野市長可以再談但是每一個提案跟委員會提出來的提案的內容是一模模一樣樣的那這樣不是把委員會新抓東隊增效了嗎我覺得不應該這樣啦"},{"start":3607.117,"end":3614.183,"text":"尊重也是要互相尊重那經濟委員會十三位委員的時間不用尊重嗎?希望維持委員會的決議"},{"start":3623.01,"end":3652.115,"text":"我們就尊重這個委員會審查結果凍結投融資業務5%那我們的病委員會審查決議第十案我們改為主決議請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?沒意見好我們通過下一案第十二案簡列兩億五千萬元請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?沒意見主席主席好請麥玉珍委員請發言請張啟凱委員請發言我們還是有些意見就保留就好了啦好不好"},{"start":3653.736,"end":3679.701,"text":"你本來要把第四改成那個組結議是不是四到十一啦我們照我們原來的提案那如果大家有任何意見我們就保留好不好繼續寫著我們現在不好意思各位委員團因為我剛才現在進入十二案好不好針對十二案大家有沒有寶貴意見對,剛才我們國民黨團也都尊重了好,就進入十二案有沒有意見有十二案請哪一位委員有意見請吳思亞幹事長請發言"},{"start":3681.161,"end":3710.007,"text":"因為這個案子的就是要請國發會來說明一下因為賴氏堡委員的檢列2.5億其實是蠻高額的所以你們要說明一下到年底你們的執行這一項應當就我所掌握的年底應當會超過95、96%以上嗎那這樣子又要檢列2億5有辦法嗎實際上應當也支出了嗎因為我目前執行率已經是達到72%年底估計會到95所以我們"},{"start":3711.448,"end":3719.736,"text":"會到95%的那個執行率所以你們同意檢列嗎?所以我們是建議因為已經會到95%的這個執行率所以建議改為主決議提書面報告"},{"start":3727.029,"end":3743.713,"text":"好,劉主委發言,請問國民黨團臨時市長幾%?主委你說到現在執行率是多少?應該提到,不是現在,現在是七十幾%對,現在是七十幾%你預估到年底馬上就跳到九十幾%你這個數字也跳得太快了吧"},{"start":3748.342,"end":3769.902,"text":"你24億70幾%這樣子平均一個月才幾億?這個72%是到9月的喔?那9月的執行啊?那你現在現在現在?這個是三項台灣投資台商回台的這個投資台商的三個方案那這個方案因為我們目前我們自己的評估95%是一定會到"},{"start":3771.203,"end":3771.563,"text":"你這麼有把握嗎?"},{"start":3791.465,"end":3802.233,"text":"主席、各部委員請直接說明,國防會不用客氣,請直接說明我們到九月底的執行率是72%那我們到年底預計可以執行到95%換句話說我們的執行數大概是23%"},{"start":3807.822,"end":3808.242,"text":"邱志偉委員,請發言。"},{"start":3824.741,"end":3847.652,"text":"所以每個月每個月大概要付多少錢,所以他只要到九成五、九成七都很正常的,那固定費用,所以他按月按月支出了,所以你現在如果把他又減列兩億,他後面第四季的錢付不出來的,會有這個問題,所以我是建請說是不是我們協商是如果按照原來的版本就這部分就改組決議就好了。"},{"start":3849.699,"end":3853.821,"text":"主席不好意思我還是要打岔我們剛剛的案子剛剛那個第四到十一我們民眾黨團沒有說沒有沒有我們是需要保留阿"},{"start":3873.117,"end":3888.204,"text":"你一直喊尊重院長這是我們黨團的決議啦好不好就先保留了好不好不是因為因為剛才我們已經宣讀通過的時候你宣讀的時候我們有表示異議喔有有沒有沒有一定有啊有你們聽到他在喊"},{"start":3890.009,"end":3909.353,"text":"好不好先保留啦沒關係院長先保留反正到下一輪我們再討論嘛好不好先保留院長已經通過的事情大家都要回頭再來剛剛醫生有舉手要求要保留沒有剛剛非常清楚院長在請示的時候就是病委員會的決議鬥結我怕大家都OK你們沒有發聲啊所以院長才通過的啊過了就過了"},{"start":3918.51,"end":3920.913,"text":"十六、十七、十八是並委員會的決議。"},{"start":3934.227,"end":3946.724,"text":"現在討論十四、十五案。十四案是業務費用、旅運費、國外旅費。這邊是兩百四十萬全數簡列。請問各位黨團剛剛有沒有保個意見?"},{"start":3950.137,"end":3968.254,"text":"委員長,如果如您的裁示,14到18並委員會的決議是總共來服務費用凍結3000萬的話,那我們可以同意。就希望尊重委員會。但如果說有委員不同意的話,我們細項來討論的話,我們可能就有不同的主張。但希望尊重委員會的決議。"},{"start":3969.235,"end":3971.298,"text":"主席王宏威委員主席第15案也要求保留"},{"start":3987.799,"end":4014.569,"text":"第四條保留,吳聖委員請發言我說明一下大家看一下案子這裡呢16、17、18都病委員會決議處理那15案是賴世保委員提檢列2500我想這個國發基金可以說一下也許做得到可以接受現在是14案就是那個旅費的部分那目前為止我也去了解了這個案子的執行應當有執行了這個出國的經費可能是幾十萬你們等一下說明一下"},{"start":4015.229,"end":4040.797,"text":"因為這兩年有一些會議改為視訊所以沒有實際的出國所以在這個出國的旅運費是可以部分來減劣所以說呢14可以部分的減劣以及15案賴世保委員減劣2500那等同於整個14到18就剛好是委員會total凍結服務費用3000萬是合理的所以大家也不需要再保留因為這都是一個合一的數字"},{"start":4041.817,"end":4042.578,"text":"國安會主委,你們現在那個那個旅運費這部分請說明一下好嗎?"},{"start":4058.249,"end":4085.615,"text":"因為我們今年是因為有幾個會議改到這個因為我們過去這種投資我們必須到海外參加投資人的審查跟審核的會議那今年有一些改成線上那我們目前執行了47萬那11月我們還是有一個團要去參加國外的會議這樣子所以我們是建議是不是3減100萬那我們還有一點錢可以把11月的走完"},{"start":4088.72,"end":4116.332,"text":"那個劉主委說檢列一百萬,國發會這邊是可以接受請問那個國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團有意見嗎?張啟凱委員請發言我們後面的十六、十七這個這個併這個委員會這個結議這個這邊我們是可以接受可是就在十四案這一塊這個要檢列兩百四十萬三千億我們是堅持的好那我們就十四案那個院長"},{"start":4120.202,"end":4138.195,"text":"稍微等一下,大家先不要舉手,先等一下我現在要請大家思考張啓凱委員跟吳世耀委員提的是有一點出入的跟劉珠瑋所回報跟大家回應的是有一點不一樣吳世耀提出你這個總共這邊凍結3000服務這個服務費用3000萬是符合委員會的決議,這是A"},{"start":4142.678,"end":4164.31,"text":"章祺海委員提提第十四案全數簡列是B,但是我們國防會劉志偉所提的說他們同意簡列一百萬,因為他們有一些發生一些旅運業務等等,那國防會這邊可以接受,這是C,A、B、C,請問一下各位黨團幹部現在能不能接受吳世堯的A全數列,如果不能的話現在請表達意見。"},{"start":4165.613,"end":4180.163,"text":"院長,我們是不能接受啦。還有那個檢列100萬那個部分,我要再請劉主委講清楚,就是說他剛才講說他們這個可能最近有一個出國的行程嘛,一個會議要參加。那你確實有沒有去算說,那大概要花多少錢?"},{"start":4181.084,"end":4207.997,"text":"因為我們要去講說你檢列多少,因為全篩是兩百四嘛。如果你出國只要花四十萬的話,那我就要檢列兩百萬啊。他同意就檢列一百。那你現在如果,這有個問題是,如果你全部都不接受,如果全部都不接受,假設你要叫他凍結的話,他再有這個計畫,花減一百也好,減一百二也好,那就變得沒有意義了,你全部都不接受了嘛。如果接受,我們才能往下緊留住,你懂我意思嗎?"},{"start":4208.837,"end":4211.299,"text":"我老人家都聽不見你講什麼,你大聲一點"},{"start":4231.548,"end":4244.625,"text":"我們這個會議主要是因為我們要參加投資人的會議這是確保我們的投資權益那我們在11、12月的時候其實我們還要再出去參加投資人的會議大概還需要在100萬人左右"},{"start":4246.789,"end":4261.858,"text":"他表達出來,他在11月年底再宣100萬,所以劉主委同意他可以接受是減劣100萬,這才有一個邏輯上的問題嘛。民眾黨有意見嗎?減劣100萬還是照你們的保留還是吳斯堯全部保留?"},{"start":4265.82,"end":4266.241,"text":"邱主委委員請發言"},{"start":4279.27,"end":4297.966,"text":"正天才也在,幾乎全員到齊。這個是服務費用底下一筆費用。服務費用底下包括一般服務費用,包括佣金、會費、經理費、手續費,我們不針對細項去處理。因為出國費用,也請他們詳細說明你們要去哪些國家,每一筆都要花多少錢,也經過詳細討論。我不曉得張靚海委員在不在,應該也在了。"},{"start":4303.05,"end":4329.744,"text":"所以那時候經過紛紛討論也請他們說明說你兩百四十萬你怎麼發去哪一些國家那現在已經過了十一月了馬上又要冬至又要吃湯圓了你現在這個又叫他說之前的已經發完了要全部檢列那請怎麼辦已經發完怎麼辦所以當時委員會做這個結論也請他們遵檢之書所以用凍結的方式取代去檢列所以整個服務費用"},{"start":4331.565,"end":4354.381,"text":"整體去做個凍結 針對服務費用 我們凍結三千萬 三千萬的額度不能說少啊讓他們做這個科目之間調整 也請他們提出進進計畫才能解凍 所以經過委員會跨黨派的包括您也在 所以大家充分討論之後我認為啊 不宜在這邊再重新做雙重的標準雙重標準簡稱雙標 謝謝 謝謝那個"},{"start":4360.909,"end":4377.502,"text":"張信凱委員你還要補充發言嗎?國民黨也有意見,民眾黨也有意見,就先保留啦。國民黨團同意剪裂一百萬,如果你沒有意見沒關係,但是我想聽一下吳春成幹事長的意見好不好?因為你們黨團幹部是吳春成,吳幹事長請表達意見好嗎?還是主張我們的保留意見,黨團的意見。"},{"start":4390.745,"end":4420.485,"text":"一個倉辦的主人沒有來然後我們的招委也說明了清楚的審議的過程然後現場國發會的同仁也就這一筆預算已執行以及將執行的合宜的核實數字已經告訴大家大概支出就150萬所以核實來支出編列250萬他們核實支出150萬減列100萬這才叫預算審查司民委員就聽懂他也接受這才是理性審查"},{"start":4421.406,"end":4441.981,"text":"那你們民眾黨的委員在經濟委員會期開委員也參與審議很認真啊那怎麼現在一個倡辦人又不在場然後提了一個提案他不在每一案的保留把我們坐在現場的所有的立委徵效欸把在場所有的官員徵效欸甚至把韓院長徵效欸沒有人這麼大倡辦這麼大審查預算大家理性"},{"start":4447.321,"end":4459.09,"text":"那現在我們都把各種理由說明了,然後你們就是要保留,欸院長這樣也很不給您尊重,對不對?謝謝,好,謝謝吳斯雅委員幹事長的發言,謝謝,萬一蔓越政委員請發言,發言完我們準備休息。好,謝謝我們院長,謝謝我們吳斯雅委員的指導。"},{"start":4466.735,"end":4471.498,"text":"因為我們是在委員會協商或者委員會討論都是各個黨派在委員會裡面所以呢如果你覺得說協商是沒有用的,這樣我們協商幹嘛?就是黨團協商所以啊,所以我們在委員會在協商的時候沒有達成共識我們今天才來黨團協商所以說"},{"start":4492.068,"end":4494.652,"text":"沒錯委員會但是來到這邊要協商還有不一樣的角度不一樣的想法不能說在委員會決定好就算這邊的話就雙標不是這樣子的回答還有第二個聽我講完不要插話"},{"start":4507.911,"end":4512.436,"text":"有禮貌我沒有講話我插話現在你插話阿對所以說你不用拿麥克風我不用拿麥克風不行喔我在講話你就在這邊插嘴我沒有講話阿現在不是在講話嗎所以我講話你才要講好不好"},{"start":4523.328,"end":4523.508,"text":"請表達同意不同意"},{"start":4539.469,"end":4539.549,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4557.336,"end":4581.495,"text":"但是我們決定後我們也要來討論所以不要去一直在講說上班最大沒有人最大所以我們就要來協商協商到最後我們是要今天我們就是希望說保留讓他們說明我們再來給他通過我們沒有刪減我們沒有寫刪減所以我們希望他要有書面給我們不是只有講而已"},{"start":4582.356,"end":4604.954,"text":"你們這一案是全數檢列,全數檢列就是三件啊。沒錯,但是我們沒有全部這個兩百多萬啊,你們檢說一百萬嘛。所以還有說剛才,剛才有一句齁,你們講的,什麼他們花完了,就怎麼退回來。所以呢,我們現在省二一一四年的,還沒有花的,我們要怎麼去檢。沒錯,我就聽我講完嘛。"},{"start":4608.831,"end":4619.753,"text":"））"},{"start":4620.936,"end":4649.683,"text":"沒錯我們不管這個是我們我們不管怎麼樣現在我們講的是說我們覺得這個我們有意見我們可以提出嘛這是我們的權利啊對不對所以我們省113年欸是說他們花完了我們就沒有權利再講又不能權利再減了嗎所以說不是這樣子的意思嘛看我的眼睛就一定你同意不同意國民黨民進黨他們共同減的一百萬還是要堅持你們黨團的保留"},{"start":4650.103,"end":4651.224,"text":"我們堅持我們黨團的保留謝謝"},{"start":4672.1,"end":4686.558,"text":"二、研商有關〈中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算及綜計部分〉案相關〉案相關〉"},{"start":4690.077,"end":4690.457,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4716.337,"end":4716.818,"text":"（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":4733.929,"end":4752.895,"text":"保留的部分有一種情況就是說他會不會因為營業基金有保留的他會不會再回來再討論一次但是去年就沒有第二輪去年就直接提院會但是提院會對我們是不利的因為舉手舉不贏人家"},{"start":4754.035,"end":4780.196,"text":"所以可能就是說我們希望有第二輪的機會阿現在他們到底是黃國昌堅持還是史克勒堅持不知道啦但是已經執行就是已經執行完畢那確實是要讓他們還是我去跟他們提一下可以嗎他有沒有辦法替黃國昌那種也可以試試看啦也可以試試看啦因為都已經執行了不要過去不要過去對欸欸好像那個那個他已經算去了那個"},{"start":4783.479,"end":4784.88,"text":"委員長上去了"},{"start":4794.286,"end":4803.035,"text":"因為它每年的狀況不一樣,像去年保留就沒有再回來,就提到保留。對,去年就是這樣。對,那你今年直接表決是對福利的喔?對,對,要爭取第二輪。"},{"start":4822.892,"end":4841.186,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":4843.294,"end":4843.935,"text":"第十四案"},{"start":4862.073,"end":4891.163,"text":"因為第十四案他確實是說因為這是113年的預算那我們現在是113年的11月了所以有部分已經動枝了所以我很想要問一下說那在場有沒有組織的人去說明一下那已經動枝的預算那如果還被全數檢列的話他後續的法律效果是怎樣那我想我們在討論預算的時候還是得理性的去面對因為有已經動枝的部分那"},{"start":4892.13,"end":4892.812,"text":"那而且"},{"start":4894.918,"end":4922.636,"text":"對,那15案的部分我們是同意啦那14案的部分我還是覺得要強調一下我們大家在這裡討論預算基本上有來的人就代表黨團嘛那不能夠每次遇到黃國昌委員的提案那民眾黨就要主張保留那變得說我們在這裡大家都在這裡開會變得沒有意義了因為遇到黃國昌的提案就要保留那不就意思說他今天如果沒有來的話我們就"},{"start":4923.416,"end":4929.898,"text":"今天的處理就沒有辦法結束,等耗到明天再等他到。我先謝謝主席,因為我剛剛是要問第15案,現在已經確實保留了。"},{"start":4942.421,"end":4967.531,"text":"那另外呢就是剛才主席的才事我覺得是很明確的就是如果我們有大家還有不同意見的話就先與保留因為否則兩百多萬我們就卡在這邊講那麼久啊那我們都要講到天亮都講不完了好那因為剛才吳斯堯幹事長說十五案他們是同意的所以是不是十五案就與你通過謝謝"},{"start":4979.508,"end":4981.071,"text":"十四案是不是再給國發會說明一下?"},{"start":4993.578,"end":4993.718,"text":"請說明蔡議員的問題,請。"},{"start":5006.83,"end":5011.492,"text":"我們聽到陳副主席長的說明我想我們就針對這個不要再節外生枝了請邱委員"},{"start":5034.822,"end":5056.182,"text":"雖然這個審預算不是我的專業,但是我有經驗,而且有把握原則,相同的標準,從一而終。民眾黨的提案跟今天提案是一模一樣,因為民眾黨不能個別提案,你們每一項預算的刪減、凍結都是用黨團提案,所以我看到的版本跟三月看到的版本是一樣的。"},{"start":5058.284,"end":5084.944,"text":"除非這幾個月情勢大變更（有很大的瑕疵或重大事件發生（你們才可以針對之前的決議（再做不同的決定（但是呢（我們已經同意賴斯堡委員的提案（在服務費用向下（一億多節列兩千五（您同意了嗎（對（所以我要報告主席（服務費用向下（就包括國外旅費了（"},{"start":5086.471,"end":5105.501,"text":"所以國外旅費有包括在服務費用向下服務費用向下已經減了3000萬你現在國外旅費又減但不是一項費用減兩次了嗎既然已經有減劣了好科目你們自行調整嘛對不對這才不會影響到你們整體的這個計畫的執行嘛"},{"start":5109.069,"end":5137.62,"text":"謝謝邱志偉、趙靜雯。好,我們現在不再回頭了。我們現在已經宣讀過四十四案保留、四十五案通過、十六、十七、十八並委會決議。現在進入第十九案主決議。大家有沒有保過意見?沒見通過。二十三案有沒有意見?沒見通過。二十一案主決議有沒有意見?沒見通過。二十二案主決議有沒有意見?沒見通過。二十三案主決議有沒有意見?沒見通過。二十四案主決議有沒有意見?沒見通過。二十五案主決議有沒有意見?沒見通過。二十六案主決議文字修正有沒有意見?"},{"start":5139.913,"end":5166.099,"text":"修正通過,二十七案主決議,文字修正有沒有意見?修正通過,謝謝進入離島建設基金二十八案主決議,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過。二十九案主決議有沒有意見?通過。三十案主決議文字修正,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見,修正通過。三十一案主決議有沒有意見?沒有意見,修正通過。三十二案主決議有沒有意見?沒有意見,修正通過。三十三案主決議文字修正有沒有意見?"},{"start":5167.369,"end":5171.711,"text":"每件修正通過三十四案主決議文字修正有意見嗎?"},{"start":5171.711,"end":5175.933,"text":"每件修正通過三十五案主決議有意見嗎?"},{"start":5175.933,"end":5179.275,"text":"每件修正通過三十六案主決議有意見嗎?"},{"start":5179.275,"end":5187.919,"text":"每件修正通過三十七案我們促進轉型正業減列四百萬請問各位黨團剛有意見嗎?"},{"start":5187.919,"end":5188.179,"text":"吳世永請發言"},{"start":5190.687,"end":5214.161,"text":"謝謝主席我想促轉基金3738我們可以一併來討論那因為事前我也有都跟國發會執行的單位有做過數字的推敲跟研議就他們具體已經執行的項目那3738這個轉型正義的計畫相關的處理很多是給這些平反人的這些權益要給他們或是辦一些人權的活動"},{"start":5215.282,"end":5237.484,"text":"現在已經到10月、11月了。就我所知大概37、38若一併來看的話,大概已經執行的快9乘5了。所以說,如果38案賴氏保委員提案要減8000的話,就會回到剛剛主席處副主席講說的,它已經執行出去了。所以合一的數字大概是1000萬左右。"},{"start":5238.965,"end":5266.403,"text":"如果說還沒有執行完畢的話所以我具體的建議三十八案就核實我們省預算都要核實所以核實的話檢列一千萬應當是合宜的那至於三十七我是希望三七、三八並起來合宜的減一千萬這樣子是民進黨團的主張謝謝吳司長幹事長的發言可以讓他們公務機關來說明一下因為這畢竟是要把你們實際的致用的狀況、項目跟國會說明"},{"start":5269.485,"end":5297.114,"text":"謝謝吳斯亞幹長發言,現在請劉主委請發言這筆這個科目的費用主要是支應到正義轉型有關的補助是由各部會像內政法務文化還有各縣市提出申請然後我們依據這樣去幫助到弱勢的團體跟這個弱勢的民眾也有包括是當年受害者的民眾還有一些相關的展覽的費用那這個費用執行"},{"start":5298.454,"end":5300.575,"text":"以37案來說的話,這個服務費用,現在到目前為止,你們所支用的是多少錢呢?"},{"start":5335.369,"end":5343.871,"text":"報告委員,在第37案目前各部會所編列的執行數截至預估到年底應該可以執行數是150萬。到年底執行數150萬,針對有關服務費用。所以如果刪除400萬的話,還綽綽有疑。是吧?"},{"start":5365.913,"end":5366.133,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團有意見嗎?"},{"start":5387.335,"end":5389.898,"text":"三十八案,也一樣到目前為止,因為你們編列的是"},{"start":5410.837,"end":5437.984,"text":"一共編多少?一億四千四百萬那請問一下你們到目前為止已經執行的金額是多少?報告委員目前到十月底子我們的執行的比率大概是75%將近七千七百萬左右七千七百萬是不是?"},{"start":5440.094,"end":5465.891,"text":"到年底預估可以執行到93%那多少錢呢?執行數嗎?預估到年底的執行數可以到一億三千四百多萬一億三千四百萬 對不對?對那我想請問一下為什麼在短短兩個月它的執行會突然倍數成長呢?"},{"start":5467.469,"end":5495.564,"text":"包括委員因為他的核銷結案都會是放在年底因此多數的錢必須要看到他的成果才能夠給付所以各部會在年底所分配的數額是比較高的往年都是這樣嗎因為你如果按照十月底因為我想既然要這個促進轉型陣營應該是不會到年底才來消耗預算吧往年都是不是消耗預算包括委員"},{"start":5496.024,"end":5524.787,"text":"因為他有一定的執行期間那依照他們的合約就是要到年底的時候完成之後才能夠做好那這樣子齁那具體請請我們那個國發會國發會嗎是吧好來提供就是到年底因為短短兩個月執行將近是十個月的一個金額這樣的執行啊感覺好像有點在趕進度或者消耗預算所以就麻煩保留請他們把這兩個月你們即將執行的來提供資料給我們參考謝謝"},{"start":5526.108,"end":5543.374,"text":"吳淑媛,請發言。我想再確認一下,剛剛的說明是這樣。剛剛國法會同仁說明說這一筆,因為很多是縣市政府或是機關團體申請有關於轉型正義,不管辦人權的或是辦一些公益性的,包括文化展演的部分,所以都是年底來。"},{"start":5543.814,"end":5545.756,"text":"十月執行了七成多,然後到年底十二月執行九成三,這很正常啊?"},{"start":5564.099,"end":5590.672,"text":"這沒有說最後兩個月倍增啊沒有所以我是要再確認一下他剛剛的說明是這樣可能沒有太清楚讓委員沒有聽清楚所以到十月份已經執行了七成多到十二月執行九成三這是合一的就是說在比例上也沒有一個奇奇怪怪的部分那所以我一開始就說這一項因為我做過功課你們大概到年底可以執行我的數字是九成三九成五"},{"start":5591.312,"end":5614.584,"text":"所以可以檢列一千萬我一開始就說這是我們黨團非常務實、核實的我們同時把關人民的荷包同時也讓公務機關去執行必要執行的政務所以檢列一千萬是因為他執行可能有7%沒有執行完所以檢列一千萬真的是一個合一的數字所以如果大家都同意這個合一的數字我們盡量不要"},{"start":5615.558,"end":5615.858,"text":"．國民黨黨團．台灣民眾黨團提議"},{"start":5636.189,"end":5638.791,"text":"委員長,這個預算科目在委員會是照列,因為它的特殊性,大家注意,是捐補助會費"},{"start":5652.841,"end":5676.812,"text":"還有相關補助還有契約旅行的義務還有對各縣市的補助所以為什麼跨黨派針對這項項目幾乎大家都有共識是不能簡列因為它是必要性的支出而且是按月而且大部分是集中在年底為什麼最後兩個月會有比較多的計算支出很多是要按照契約去旅行的規範所以我跟大家講說這個真的是"},{"start":5678.479,"end":5678.679,"text":"主席"},{"start":5730.068,"end":5736.91,"text":"黨團幹部,我們進入三十九案改組決議,有沒有意見?"},{"start":5736.91,"end":5746.333,"text":"有沒有意見?通過。四十三案改組決議?通過。四十一案改組決議?通過。四十二案改組決議?通過。四十三案?"},{"start":5748.337,"end":5776.065,"text":"溝通後改組決議。有沒有意見?沒意見。通過。四十四案、四十五案改為組決議。溝通後已經溝通完畢到四十六案全部改為組決議。有意見嗎?沒意見。通過。四十七案改組決議。溝通過。沒意見。通過。四十八案、四十九案、五十二案、五十一案、五十二案到五十三案經過溝通之後通通改為組決議。各位黨團該沒有意見嗎?沒意見。我們通過。第五十四案改為組決議。"},{"start":5778.103,"end":5803.29,"text":"每一件通過五十五、五十六、五十七請問各位黨團幹部五十五萬凍結百分之五請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?每一件吼吳世瑤幹事長請發言是不是可以請中華企業發展基金這邊來說明一下中華企業發展基金的基金用途大家都很清楚"},{"start":5804.508,"end":5805.909,"text":"中小企業基金會請說明"},{"start":5834.468,"end":5852.083,"text":"報告主席,這案子我們有向這個提案的秀委員當面做過報告因為這個相關的有關於投資還有後面的綠色金融等等的都是為了協助中小企業做貸款相關的利息補貼還有相關低的保證手續費的支出所以我們預估的年底的這些執行確實會依據我們的這個計畫來執行"},{"start":5855.786,"end":5884.819,"text":"那特別是在貸款的部分因為現在景氣回升中小企業他或合的這些貸款陸陸續續在跟銀行在借所以這些餘額也會增加所以我們也向委員做說明懇請能夠言語凍結好請邱志偉召委請出言這筆預算是在4月18號巡達5月1號處理主席是楊瓊瑩委員那這筆預算我們也經過這個長時間的討論中小企業他是集中在中南部"},{"start":5886.124,"end":5900.532,"text":"那經濟委員會不管是國民黨或者是民進黨的委員都來自中南部我們對這筆預算非常的重視所以當時的決議就是照例所以我希望說大家是不是體恤中小企業目前啊"},{"start":5903.153,"end":5923.699,"text":"）．反對中小企業的協助．．讓中小企業感受不到政府的溫暖．．讓我們回去選區．．包括國民黨跟民進黨．．回去選區都無法．．．對我們廣大的中小企業去交代．．謝謝協助委員說明．．國民黨團請林思敏委員請說明我想這筆預算．．因為跟這個110年的比較．．其實我們已經增加5億多了．．"},{"start":5929.537,"end":5958.015,"text":"那我剛才聽這個業務單位就說到底今年你現在執行的預算率現在還有多少?你執行率是多少你要講清楚啊請做記者說明目前執行率到十月多少?到十月底我們已經執行了五億六千萬那我們全年的話我們估計還有這個三億會去執行所以全年是要達到八億六千萬的這樣子的一個水準所以現在五億多還有三億多"},{"start":5958.795,"end":5969.066,"text":"所以現在這個提案是說只是凍結5%然後提出專案報告就可以解凍。對,我們覺得說這個是OK的,就可以凍結你還是可以執行的。凍結你5%而已。"},{"start":5975.282,"end":5999.589,"text":"好可以齁好中華企業處接受那我想三個黨團幹部還有意見嗎沒意見好是不是趙院長在昨天有裁示盡量還是用素面報告因為實際上時間上也沒有你很難在盤專案報告尊重提案委員啦他這個尊重提案委員啦好不好OK好"},{"start":6000.643,"end":6028.601,"text":"好,我們五十五萬我們就凍結百分之五,加書面報告五十六萬凍結百分之五,各位有寶貴意見嗎?沒意見?好,中小企業處請發言向院長報告,本案也有向提案委員做完整的一個報告跟說明因為這是推動中小企業的永續融資這個我們今年到目前為止已經做了大概兩千億元所以這樣子的一個優惠貸款我們是希望能夠持續協助中小企業也能夠重視減碳所以這邊"},{"start":6030.582,"end":6045.311,"text":"目前的話是已經執行了有兩億三千多萬所以全年我只要再多個一億所以這個到三億七千萬都是必須要去執行的有跟委員做過詳細的一個報告委員也表示理解"},{"start":6046.451,"end":6047.332,"text":"三億兩千萬嗎?三億七千萬"},{"start":6072.244,"end":6073.204,"text":"國民黨團表達意見,就免以凍結。台灣民眾黨團有意見嗎?"},{"start":6093.358,"end":6121.304,"text":"好,我們本案第五十六案我們就免於五六五七這兩案我們就免於凍結那第五十七案是凍結二十四萬三千我們就免於凍結好,大家有沒意見沒意見通過五十八案文字修正主決有意見嗎?沒意見修正通過五十九案主決有意見嗎?沒意見通過六十案主決有意見嗎?沒意見通過六十一案主決有意見嗎?沒意見通過好,我們進入六十二案改組決議大家有意見嗎?"},{"start":6122.924,"end":6125.747,"text":"每件通過．63案改檢列5%．請問各黨團幹部有沒有意見?"},{"start":6135.086,"end":6155.423,"text":"我們改檢列8560萬元,總共是171200萬,大家有沒有寶貴意見?貨東基金這裡報告一下,因為這個部分一般服務費大概用在我們廚藝的這個能力的這個薪資的部分,那這塊檢列的部分看能不能減少,減少一點,然後讓我們減個500萬,總共大概8500萬,可以檢列個500萬左右。"},{"start":6165.058,"end":6181.79,"text":"請問何後端基金現在還有多少錢?何後端基金的話目前的一般服務費的執行率大概...不是不是我說後端基金現在還有多少錢?今年的話大概編了64億左右那總共還有多少錢?總共大概還有4600億左右"},{"start":6191.898,"end":6198.3,"text":"四千九百億、四千九百億、四千九百億、四千六百億、四千六百億"},{"start":6210.62,"end":6228.25,"text":"這五年來怎麼使用?請你把這個整個使用,這五年來核核端基金怎麼使用?把這個表送到國民黨團來,給各黨團,這是第一個。第二個,再過來,這個13億的3.5%有什麼困難?17億有什麼困難?"},{"start":6235.469,"end":6262.522,"text":"主要是主義的人力的部分,因為這個部分的薪資大概又佔了差不多16億5000萬左右所以17億1200萬,你們現在5%都不能三減就對了?對,薪資的部分對,一般服務費,主要是用在員工的薪資的部分"},{"start":6273.428,"end":6285.438,"text":"國民黨團可以本次依照你們的要求,如果不刪減,把這個17億怎麼使用的細項,送到國民黨團來。副總長他同意減那500萬?不是沒有,細項,這17億怎麼使用的細項,請送到國民黨團來。"},{"start":6293.012,"end":6319.439,"text":"國民黨團現在副總統提出來,他同意全部不檢列但是呢,要把所有的實施的辦法細項,送國民黨團、民進黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團,三個黨團那個,那個經濟部有意見嗎?沒有意見齁,那把所有的資料如期送出,時間我們就在月底之前好不好?10月30號之前,我相信你們計劃都是,手邊資料都現成的好,那侯王宏威幹事長請發言"},{"start":6321.977,"end":6344.65,"text":"提案委員 謝一芬委員請發言63案我剛好聽到那個是不是在討論我的案子我才趕快來的因為我是說中小企業發展基金因為對我問他就算過我要說明一下我有問他他執行的部分到哪裡我有問過你嗎"},{"start":6346.211,"end":6370.761,"text":"因為現在已經是年底了嘛那所以我們當然希望說如果你沒有辦法執行完我動的部分根本就不會就是說超過你可以使用的範圍嘛那我們也知道說如果沒有解凍的話就是他不能超支他還是可以把他今年度的預算用完所以我只是要提醒他應該要重視我提出來的問題是不是"},{"start":6373.288,"end":6376.59,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團有意見嗎?沒有意見,那我們就麻煩臺電把相關資料送三個黨團來參考11月30號之前,我們就解除凍結。"},{"start":6396.226,"end":6409.373,"text":"是解除凍結嗎?現在副總召的意思就是不再檢列了,對不對?就是召列了。我們就召列。好,六十三案、六十四案召列。六十五案檢列四百萬元,大家有意見嗎?"},{"start":6410.849,"end":6416.031,"text":"66案改為主決議66案改為主決議66案改為主決議66案改為主決議66案改為主決議66案改為主決議"},{"start":6439.819,"end":6455.673,"text":"六七六八減列三百萬一併減列三百萬有意見嗎?沒意見好我們通過六十九我們是一樣減列三百萬並在一起大家有意見嗎?六七六八六九"},{"start":6456.294,"end":6460.896,"text":"請大家黨團表達意見。臺電這裡有沒有意見?想請問一下是不是77、72就是一併的減列500萬然後你們項目自行來調節?可以嗎?那就是77、72三個。"},{"start":6486.673,"end":6508.669,"text":"各位黨團幹部七一、七十七、七二,我們共同檢列五百萬元,其他通過,有意見嗎?沒有意見,好,謝謝,通過。我們七十三案該檢列三百萬元,有意見嗎?沒有意見,好,尊教辦也通過。七十四案凍結百分之五,七四、七五、七六,我們就並案審查。"},{"start":6512.15,"end":6538.308,"text":"動輒5% 各位請表達意見動輒5%這個地方太多了是不是我們可以改提書面報告因為這部分其實上除役的這部分包括了有一些一般服務費跟專業服務費主要是用在一些員工的薪資還有核子保房的保安警察的薪資還有一些除役必要的專業服務這一部分是不是可以讓我們提書面報告然後"},{"start":6539.128,"end":6559.704,"text":"五百分之五是兩億四千九百萬,請發言今天這個五百分之五如果貴單位有困難是不是你把今年這個四十九億多四十九億九如何使用所有的細項以及準備使用的細項通通送到三個黨團來"},{"start":6565.869,"end":6589.159,"text":"已經執行的細項,還有準備執行的細項,統統把它送過來。好,謝謝傅昆吉總召的發言。接下來黃宏威,請發言。這個是我提案的啦。那因為同樣的那個賴氏堡委員是刪除兩億喔,剪裂兩億喔。那我這邊是凍結。那因為其實大家都很"},{"start":6592.559,"end":6604.711,"text":"動輒數百分之五因為現在大家都非常關心河山廠的廚藝因為現在一號機組已經宣布廚藝那接下來明年還有二號機組"},{"start":6606.172,"end":6634.491,"text":"那大家現在也關心的包含這個缺電問題AI的這個設置還有運算中心的設置等等之類所以我覺得應該還是由橫河專基金的部分還是應該把相關的資料送到各黨團來然後那我當然支持是需要凍結那其實包含那個賴士寶委員是直接檢列我個人也是支持的所以是不是"},{"start":6635.331,"end":6651.441,"text":"還是請經營部來做一個說明。因為大家關心的就是你們現在整個除役的一個狀況。謝謝王國文委員的發言。但是王國文委員現在意見有一點不太一致。沒關係,麥毓忠委員請發言。"},{"start":6656.611,"end":6669.802,"text":"謝謝主席,因為我看到很多項目都是檢列檢列,我們的經濟部都同意嘛對不對,所以我真的不懂,剛才我們檢列兩百多萬所以說他們沒辦法付,但是現在檢列那麼多他們都花光了,所以說我們是誰付的,所以他們花完了,檢列他們怎麼補回來的"},{"start":6681.053,"end":6685.439,"text":"所以說檢列,為什麼我們檢列就有一件,這樣檢列這樣子的話我們經濟部從哪裡生出來的,是你們給的嗎?所以我覺得我搞不懂嘛,所以你們懂你們要講事啦所以我覺得都是檢列都同體,那我們民眾黨檢列就不一樣"},{"start":6698.055,"end":6702.878,"text":"相互不一樣也是花掉了嘛,是今年的嘛,對不對?當然啦,但是減淚我們也是值得討論,是說去尊重,所以我們要發言就是我們一樣的齁,所以我覺得是都可以減淚,就是我們不管花了還是沒有花,審查的精神就是能花就花,不能花就減淚嘛,不管說你花光了我就不能減淚,啊這個不花光嗎?這個所以他們都沒有花到,所以減淚太少了,還沒花到嘛。"},{"start":6727.89,"end":6728.09,"text":"主席"},{"start":6743.957,"end":6746.358,"text":"請你們最短的時間趕快來報告。報告完就解凍。"},{"start":6771.968,"end":6772.208,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6782.062,"end":6809.728,"text":"那我們還是凍結?剛剛副總召議員應該是說一樣維持凍五趴,三案凍五趴,然後那個交報告就解凍嘛。好,我們七十四案、七十五案、七十六案,我們就一併凍結百分之五等報告之後,我們再來書面報告之後,我們再來決定。好,謝謝大家。經濟部謝謝郭部長,謝謝各位列席官員,辛苦大家。好,開心、微笑離開,謝謝。"},{"start":6814.829,"end":6815.129,"text":"接下來請農業部"},{"start":6833.147,"end":6859.773,"text":"謝謝熱情歡迎我們農業部的陳部長歡迎您還有農業部各級列席的官員各位黨團幹部我們進入七十七案改組決議大家有意見嗎?沒意見通過七十八案改組決議?通過七十九案改組決議?通過八十案改組決議?通過八十一案改組決議?通過八十二案組決議有意見嗎?沒意見我們通過八十三案組決議文字修正有意見嗎?沒意見修正通過"},{"start":6860.993,"end":6888.945,"text":"八十四案,增列四百萬元。各位黨的幹部有意見嗎?我們遵照辦理。遵照辦理。第八十五案,改檢列兩億元。遵照辦理。好,農業部遵照辦理。八五、八六、八七、八八一起檢列兩億元。各位黨的幹部有意見嗎?沒有意見,我們尊重農業部的意見。我們通過檢列兩億元。八十九案檢列三千萬元,有意見嗎?"},{"start":6891.223,"end":6891.663,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6911.51,"end":6934.684,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":6934.784,"end":6937.006,"text":"就是有關於農發基金下面的產銷調節計畫"},{"start":6959.784,"end":6978.011,"text":"那他最主要做的一些事情就是當我們遇到一些災害或是豐收的時候我們在做這些農產品的產銷調節他不只是只有雞蛋而已那包括現在在處理的虱目魚、鬼頭刀然後之前處理的鳳梨釋迦跟文旦跟柑橘"},{"start":6978.871,"end":7006.532,"text":"都是在這樣的一個產業調節計劃去支應的所以這樣的一個計劃本身的金額本身是在支持我們整個我們農產業遇到一些問題的時候去做調節的所以我們希望說能夠不要剪裂是最好的農業部表達意見希望不要剪裂張企鎬委員請發言蔡議員請準備這個案子主要是全民注重的超思進口蛋的這個弊案我們最近這一兩年"},{"start":7007.682,"end":7010.985,"text":"我請大家看一下,農業發展基金收支管理及應用辦法的第一條為什麼要設這個基金呢?是為了增進農民的福利跟農業發展"},{"start":7031.101,"end":7049.671,"text":"特依農業發展條例第54條第1項的規定設置這個基金請問進口雞蛋有幫助到我們農民有幫助到我們的農業嗎還害我們吃到的壞的這個雞蛋跟這個設定的這個目標根本都是不符的而且出現了很多弊案後來是連北檢都要查連"},{"start":7051.352,"end":7077.385,"text":"監察院都提出很多的這個糾正案我們還成立了調查小組所以我們非常堅持這筆錢一定要減略2億謝謝謝謝張啟康能表達一定要減略2億蔡議員請發言事實上張委員的提案事實上都是在講111年跟112年那那個時候現在檢調也在查那我們現在在處理的是113年就是今年度的這一個產銷調節的基金那我們知道產銷調節這個對農民來說非常的重要"},{"start":7081.007,"end":7083.729,"text":"九十一案保留九十二案檢列一億五千萬請農業部表達意見"},{"start":7106.776,"end":7132.654,"text":"我跟那個院長跟委員報告因為91到94是同一件事情都是在那剛才張委員所提到的這個進口雞蛋的部分那進口雞蛋是在112年這專案計畫的部分那當我去進口雞蛋的時候剛好可以讓我們的整個的蛋積產業去做復養去做復原的動作所以基本上它還是符合我們基金的用途那我們也跟"},{"start":7133.314,"end":7153.009,"text":"委員報告了就是我們的後續的雞蛋我們一定會深刻的檢討包括檢察院的檢討包括這個檢調單位我們也會尊重檢調單位第三個我要重點要說明產料調節的部分並不是只有雞蛋他還有非常多的作物然後我們到年底的時候都已經會超過這樣的一個額度了所以我希望說不要檢"},{"start":7154.17,"end":7170.216,"text":"那現在的預算執行數是51,但是到年底的時候一定超過百分之百,因為我們現在很多產交條件都是到年底才會做核算的動作,那我們預計大概會超過現在的預算數。好,謝謝。各位黨團幹部91929394,我們全數保留,95案我們改組決議通過,請進入96案,大家有意見嗎?有意見通過,97案有意見嗎?"},{"start":7180.677,"end":7184.859,"text":"全委員請不要回頭了,997要有一件嗎?請97要是結合那個91到95一個預算,報告院長,產銷調節計畫是一筆預算,無一多,用四個原因去砍,去檢列,四個人加起來3.7億"},{"start":7203.154,"end":7217.783,"text":"一個產銷條約計畫可以用四個理由去砍預算,砍了減利了3.7億,那所有的工作都不用做了。好,人事部長不要逼迫回顧,我們過了,已經過了,我們保留97案,大家有意見嗎?沒有意見我們改組決議通過98案,有意見嗎?沒有意見改組決議通過99案,有意見嗎?沒有意見改組決議通過100案,組決議有意見嗎?"},{"start":7229.21,"end":7230.391,"text":"主席,一點都不開心欸,你這樣一直轉一直轉根本沒有辦法討論跟對話"},{"start":7260.819,"end":7268.273,"text":"真的是就是這樣一直快轉一直快轉然後大家不能理性的就事論事我是真的一點都開心的不起來啦"},{"start":7269.141,"end":7272.642,"text":"謝謝各位委員請我們現在熱情歡迎公平交易委員會李主任委員熱情歡迎還有列席官員"},{"start":7299.649,"end":7299.81,"text":"財政委員會"},{"start":7345.506,"end":7367.964,"text":"好謝謝我們熱情歡迎金管會彭主委熱情歡迎您第二位是主計處代主任歡迎您第三位陳副主計長再次歡迎好謝謝各位黨團幹部我們進入中央政府對不起這是昨天的我們現在進入第二頁"},{"start":7371.656,"end":7399.452,"text":"第二頁我們金融監督管理局第二頁我們並委員會意見沒有意見的話我們就通過並委員會決議好並委員會決議我們沒有意見我們通過第三案並委員會決議沒意見我們通過第三案並委員會決議沒意見通過第五案並委員會決議通過第六案並委員會決議通過第七案並委員會決議"},{"start":7401.394,"end":7424.975,"text":"通過第八案並委員會決議通過第九案並委員會決議通過第十案並委員會決議通過第十一案組決議沒意見的話我們照案通過第十二案組決議沒意見我們照案通過保險業務發展基金第十三項我們並委員會決議凍結一百萬各位有意見嗎"},{"start":7426.044,"end":7426.064,"text":"並委員會決議"},{"start":7489.946,"end":7518.577,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部我們熱情歡迎中央研究院廖院長熱情歡迎您我們國家發展及科學技術委員會的吳主委熱情歡迎您教育部的鄭部長還不到哈鄭部長熱情歡迎河南委員會的張代理主委還沒到哈文化部的李部長還沒到國立故宮博物院的蕭院長"},{"start":7520.433,"end":7523.167,"text":"還沒到,好,我們一步來,我們先從中央研究院"},{"start":7525.674,"end":7525.854,"text":"我們接下來吳主委"},{"start":7554.455,"end":7578.062,"text":"國家科學發展基金會吳主委請做第六案,該主決有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。第七案,有意見嗎?該主決,通過。第八案,該主決議。通過。第九案,該主決議。通過。第十案,主決議。通過。十一案,主決議。通過。十二案,主決議。通過。我們進入科學園區管理基金第十三案,主決議。沒意見,通過。"},{"start":7580.168,"end":7601.597,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝吳主席,謝謝您,好,聖誕節快樂接下來請教育部政部長我們第一,教育部政部長請坐,各位大學校長請坐,各位教育部官員請坐"},{"start":7603.956,"end":7624.525,"text":"我們第十五、十四案主決議,清華大學銷務發展基金有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。第四五案有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。十六案,晉能大學有意見嗎?通過。十七案,高雄大學銷務發展基金?通過。十八案,台東大學?通過。十九案,金門大學?"},{"start":7625.506,"end":7641.079,"text":"通過主決議。二十二案,屏東大學主決議通過。十一案,高雄師範大學主決議通過。二十一案,主決議通過。二十二案,雲林科技大學通過。二十三案,改組決議。"},{"start":7643.096,"end":7655.286,"text":"通過。二、四案主決有意見,文字修正有意見嗎?沒意見,修正通過。二十五案改組決議通過。二十六案凍結50%國立海洋科技博物館"},{"start":7658.007,"end":7681.48,"text":"請國立政府長跟國立海洋科技博物館請說明作業基金凍結50%,請表達意見。謝謝院長,我們希望能夠、建議能夠改組決議,因為主要是這個海科館的這個管理跟總務的一個經費,事實上它主要是在這個除了員工的薪水還有水電,因為我們知道水"},{"start":7682.06,"end":7684.583,"text":"謝謝政部長的表達意見。各位黨團幹部,政部長的意思是說能夠改為組決議。"},{"start":7708.461,"end":7735.615,"text":"因為這個辦單委員所提出來那凍結50%那基本上已經到年底那現在你們諮詢率現在到多少?跟委員報告我們在這裡邊我們預算是3044萬那我們全年需要有2979萬到年底這是最保守的一個估計"},{"start":7739.272,"end":7763.502,"text":"請教一下,到10月底,你們已經執行了多少嗎?委員報告已經到90%你確定嗎?確定。好,那這樣子好不好。請你,你們既然已經執行了,是不是啊,你們把這個提交專案報告,我想這不困難嘛。"},{"start":7765.247,"end":7778.553,"text":"因為總計額不大3000萬是不是你們盡快把報告在本週或下週把它提過來好不好是 我想跟委員報告我們可以這個用書面來提跟大院來提交這個書面的報告"},{"start":7779.704,"end":7806.522,"text":"可以可以,我們同意提書面報告好不好?謝謝政部長,我們同意就要一步改書面報告,我們就解除凍結,好不好?好,謝謝大家。26案我們通過改書面報告。27案改組決議。好,通過28案組決議。通過29案組決議,文字修正有意見嗎?沒見修正。通過30案組決議改文字修正,有意見嗎?沒見修正。通過31案文字修正,組決議。"},{"start":7808.573,"end":7821.2,"text":"修正通過三十二案主決議（通過三十三案改組決議（通過三十四案簡列百分之四十媒體政策及業務宣導費（請下一步表達意見。"},{"start":7822.762,"end":7849.689,"text":"跟院長報告,是不是也能夠,三十四案也能夠同意改組決議,主要是因為我們這些媒體政策跟業務的一個宣導,那麼這個補助的單位他是年初的核定,然後他們通常都會在年底才會做一個這個結案的一個處理,所以是不是能夠同意。不過我們黨團剛剛一定會問,您現在到十一月底大概執行,十月底執行了多少,大家一定會問,您就剛剛就先講,對。"},{"start":7852.099,"end":7858.081,"text":"目前是42%,那年底會有74%到年底12月31號預估執行74%好,黨的幹部現在教育部已經把這個比例已經說出來請麥玉珍委員請發言"},{"start":7866.796,"end":7895.863,"text":"謝謝主席我們三十四案因為有提出書面但是沒有達到我們的要求所以我們保留謝謝好,台灣民眾黨表達保留的意見我們本案保留我們進入三十五案改組決議大家有意見嗎?沒意見通過三十六案並委員會決議有意見嗎?沒意見我們並委員會決議三十七案改組決議有意見嗎?通過三十八案改組決議通過三十九案改組決議通過四十案凍結百分之五請交一部表達意見"},{"start":7897.023,"end":7905.172,"text":"跟主席報告這也是因為這都是用來補助各個22個縣市跟各級學校教育的運動團隊的一個信念經會跟參賽運動聯賽的一些相關的一個經會所以"},{"start":7911.656,"end":7920.245,"text":"各縣市跟運動團隊他們通常也都是在年底的時候才會把整個補助跟核銷都一起報到體育署請同意能夠注意改"},{"start":7927.993,"end":7928.354,"text":"因為這個是對於各級學校的這個"},{"start":7954.136,"end":7955.877,"text":"院長,是不是像這一類的提案"},{"start":7983.038,"end":8004.383,"text":"不管是凍結也好、刪減也好,基本上在教育部的部分,現在看到刪減的部分畢竟是少,都是凍結。那凍結的話,教育部當然在現場有做一些說明,但是很簡短。所以說是不是啊,他們能夠提一些書面的東西,比較清楚以後,讓三個黨團都了解以後,我們就給他解凍嘛。"},{"start":8009.702,"end":8035.137,"text":"所以說,基本上碰到這個問題,我就不用每次都發言,好不好?院長就可以才師,就是把細項資料送給...比如說,今年總共補助款有九億多,九億兩千三百萬。好,九億兩千三百萬,運動賽事大家都支持,這不是哪一個政黨的權利?大家都支持,所以不要在這裡講支持不支持運動員。大家都支持運動員,只是對質疑說,他的錢是怎麼用的?"},{"start":8036.378,"end":8056.821,"text":"至於怎麼用的話請部長你把所有的細項送給三個黨團今年你到現在為止你說你一定會用完甚至會招資也都沒有關係招資我們都會給你但是怎麼使用的所有的細項你不是哪些單位哪些事項讓三個黨團很清楚的資料送給我們好不好"},{"start":8057.571,"end":8059.033,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8075.07,"end":8092.426,"text":"對,我們請最後一步在11月30號本月底之前把相關體育補助的相關資料以及過去進行的等等分送三個黨團來參考,好嗎?好,我們看完書面報告之後我們再來決定是否這個接受,好不好?不是,現在沒有金額問題"},{"start":8097.631,"end":8097.711,"text":"請無事邀請"},{"start":8114.472,"end":8139.999,"text":"不是主席因為程序上程序上如果這個議案我們是要教書面報告報告使得解凍他還是要走程序不是10月底送來就可以解凍如果你要的話那個叫暫保留啊你如果要凍結然後送書面報告解凍還要院會二讀三讀再送回來解凍那個已經很久了所以這個東西不是不是如大家說你送資料來就自動解凍"},{"start":8141.155,"end":8147.42,"text":"那個呃...送資料來還是要那個院會的程序嗎?那還要到幾個月之後啊?"},{"start":8148.317,"end":8154.078,"text":"所以不是我們理解的馬上,所以這是...是,是這個回事啊,醫師可以說明一下?院長,這個保留是因為我們現在都還在協商。我覺得這委員總聽的話不能在這裡亂講。就是,凍結,凍結,有提案凍結,都是國會議員對人民的納稅人所繳出來的錢,做一個很務實的來監督。"},{"start":8179.848,"end":8189.074,"text":"凍結不是一個壞事讓大家能夠把所有的事情看得更清楚所以院長現在不管是暫保留還是保留"},{"start":8190.424,"end":8215.958,"text":"他的資料送來以後我們第二輪再來討論的時候自然就解凍了嘛就沒有這些問題什麼又會二讀三讀沒有這樣的問題嘛所以我的意思就是要講清楚因為如果我們今天在這個案子是已經做成今天的協商決議是凍結5%然後交書面報告使得凍資的這個狀況這個案子就是今天協商結論之後他的程序送書面報告要二讀三讀"},{"start":8216.798,"end":8218.818,"text":"每件通過四十三案組決於文字修正"},{"start":8244.059,"end":8273.402,"text":"沒問題,修正通過四十四案組決議,通過四十五案組決議,通過四十六案組決議,通過四十七案組決議,通過我們進入第四十八案組決議,大家有意見嗎?沒有意見,通過。好,謝謝鄭部長,請下一部官員,請開新聞離開號,謝謝,拜拜,謝謝,聖誕節快樂,好。接下來我們請核能安全委員會張代理主委,好,請坐,歡迎。"},{"start":8279.345,"end":8279.665,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8300.623,"end":8313.548,"text":"好謝謝熱情歡迎我們文化部李部長我們進入53案簡列30萬元有意見嗎?沒有意見好我們通過54案改組決議每件通過55案改組決議通過56案組決議通過57案改組決議通過58案改組決議通過59案組決議通過60案組決議通過61案組決議"},{"start":8328.666,"end":8340.407,"text":"通過六十二案組決議通過謝謝李部長好謝謝椅子還沒有坐熱就要回去了拜拜謝謝啊國立故宮博物院蕭院長好請坐"},{"start":8345.029,"end":8371.48,"text":"各位黨團幹部,第六十三案,國立故宮博物院,我們六十三案併委會決議,有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。六十四案併委會決議,通過。六十五案主決議,有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。謝謝,蕭院長。好,開心,開心,開心,好,開心,謝謝。好,辛苦,辛苦,好,辛苦。好,大家休息五分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":8379.521,"end":8391.766,"text":"拜祥,你等一下給院長先看一下原來我們寫下的東西。你忙嘛,回去啦,不用再打招呼了。OK,院長知道嗎?行政院長知道嗎?"},{"start":9014.854,"end":9041.882,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝各位黨團幹部,我們熱,我們現在來歡迎一下,我們交通部陳部長,熱情歡迎,好,謝謝,好,張處長,會計處,好,謝謝,請坐,謝謝我們交通部所有的列席的官員,謝謝,我們現在進入民航作業基金第一案,改組決議,每一通過下一案,第二案,有沒有意見,沒意見,通過第三案,"},{"start":9043.14,"end":9064.689,"text":"改增列五百萬元國道公路建設管理基金,大家有沒有意見?增列五百萬,沒有意見,好,通過第四案改組決議,沒意見,通過第五案書面報告,凍結二十分之三,凍結十九億三千五百七十九萬,"},{"start":9067.842,"end":9094.92,"text":"請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見那我們就補書面報告我們通過第六案凍結二十分之一百分之五四億一千五百萬改書面報告有沒有補充書面報告大家有沒有補過意見沒有意見好通過書面報告第七案改組決有沒有意見沒有意見通過第八案書面報告凍結百分之五大家有沒有補過意見"},{"start":9096.566,"end":9125.063,"text":"我們就補書面報告第九案改組決議沒意見沒意見通過第十案凍結百分之五補充書面報告大家沒意見沒意見好補充書面報告第十一案簡列一百萬大家沒意見沒意見通過第十二案組決議沒意見沒意見通過第十三案組決議文字修正沒意見修正通過第十四案"},{"start":9126.084,"end":9147.765,"text":"主決議 文字修正 沒意見 修正通過第十五案 主決議 沒意見 沒意見第十六案 鐵道發展基金改凍結三百萬書面報告 補充書面報告 沒意見 沒意見 通過第十七案 主決議 文字修正 沒意見 修正通過第十八案 主決議 沒意見 沒意見 通過第十九案"},{"start":9149.281,"end":9177.809,"text":"主決議文字修正沒意見沒意見修正通過二十案主決議沒意見沒意見通過第四觀光發展基金第二十一案改增列五千萬元二十一項有沒有意見沒意見通過二十二案增加補列書面報告凍結一百萬元沒意見沒意見補充書面報告通過二十三案改組決議通過二十四案凍結三百萬元加書面報告"},{"start":9179.141,"end":9185.997,"text":"大家沒意見?沒意見,通過。二十五案,簡列兩千萬元,凍結百分之十。請吳思瑤幹場發言。"},{"start":9188.981,"end":9211.783,"text":"謝謝院長因為從剛剛進入交通部門其實大家可以發現各黨的委員我們基本上要嘛就是尊重委員會審查的結果要嘛就是即便個別委員在協商的期間還是提出他個別的提案但是也看到行政部門努力去做溝通溝通協調的結果我們到現在基本上都是支持跟同意的我希望大家就是在這個原則上"},{"start":9213.104,"end":9240.669,"text":"那為什麼二十五案特別要提出來說明跟報告因為大家可以發現這裡是溝通未果的那為什麼溝通未果這一定有它難以執行的部分就這個業務發展費是要來推廣我們的穩定旅宿服務量能的相關經費就交通委員會審查的結果我們的召委陳素月召委也在這裡就委員會審查的結果大家朝野的一致的共識是凍結五百萬"},{"start":9242.429,"end":9270.497,"text":"但是呢今天在協商的會場民眾黨黨團又是倡辦黃國昌委員又提案了那他希望他個人希望能夠再減裂兩千萬之外還要再凍結三億四千萬我想這個已經到年底了我也去了解這個項目的執行應當幾乎是破百分之九十八、百分之九十九的執行率吧等一下可以請我們的觀光署這邊來說明"},{"start":9271.577,"end":9296.21,"text":"所以就...等一下院長我還沒有講啊院長不用急啊我們又沒有趕投胎對不對我們省預算那是不是可以就這個議案的執行率而且我認為大家都關心觀光業要提振我們對於旅宿的擴大的服務量能的提升我們朝野一定都支持要不然還做不夠的那真的不能立委自己一個人提案"},{"start":9299.591,"end":9308.214,"text":"所以給您機會好好來說明委員會的部分這一項是多少到底是動500動1200因為它不同的項次動500、動200、動500總共是三個項目的針對精準課員開拓計畫是動500萬然後針對專業服務費及推轉費在新籍旅館的部分是動200萬"},{"start":9324.719,"end":9349.027,"text":"所以委員會的審查針對不同的細項有不同的凍結項目我相信是經過交通委員會非常專業嚴謹的審查所以是不是能夠遵照委員會的共同結論凍結一千兩百萬的這個部分來執行請讓我們交通部觀光署來說明五四要委員您說完了嗎?好,請觀光署做出講說明觀光署請稍待,請傅昆吉總統說報告一下,謝謝"},{"start":9351.206,"end":9368.916,"text":"因為今年審查我們的總預算114年總預算已經到三兆四千多億這個部長我們整體的觀光做得怎麼樣你應該很清楚我們外來觀光客幾乎是整個"},{"start":9370.723,"end":9398.569,"text":"整個東亞以及東南亞國家裡面最落後的一個指標所以本席倒是蠻希望我們的觀光做得起來尤其當執政黨抵制入客的時候要怎麼樣去補把入客的客源補進來不能讓觀光署沒有武器嘛那一個國家一個國家3到4千億的總預算如果推觀光只有34億"},{"start":9401.403,"end":9427.54,"text":"所以要推觀光是假的只是一個騙局而已看一下人家國家的觀光帶來多少國家的收益百功百業所以現在我們希望交通部對於觀光推展的預算是不是34億就足夠你可能要跟卓院長要好好去商量一下跟國防會要好好商量一下如果說"},{"start":9429.506,"end":9453.726,"text":"陳部長你就職以後我們的觀光一直低迷不振我們的國際觀光一直低迷不振我們到底的對策是什麼要請交通部馬上提出來你的預算到底夠不夠那現在對於說這個凍結10%的這個事情我想我們今天協商在這裡一貫的做法一貫的做法就是"},{"start":9455.525,"end":9479.353,"text":"請把今年到現在為止執行的細項以及執行的細項以及要準備執行的細項通通列清楚不住哪一個政府哪一個社團哪一個協會哪一個單位送到立法院來我們就在第二輪討論的時候因為這是第一輪第二輪討論的時候那個就應該啦你的資料明確送來的話各黨團認為沒有問題的話應該就沒有所謂的凍結案的發生"},{"start":9484.366,"end":9507.531,"text":"現在各部會大概我們基本上會照這個方式來進行所以希望說我們在協商的時候交通不了各部會都一樣大家如果都了解我們現在是這樣進行的話也可以讓院長省很多的時間讓我們速度能夠加快第一個今年到現在為止實行的矽項到底是多少錢第二個這樣的金額就可以推展台灣的觀光嗎"},{"start":9510.163,"end":9536.89,"text":"數字可以改善嗎?你如果說可以,那沒有問題,我們就看明年第一季的觀光客是怎麼樣,我們就會來檢討。好不好,謝謝。好,謝謝傅昆吉總召的發言。接下來,我們先請觀光署署長報告完畢之後,我們再請不同的委員發言,好不好?我們先請周署長,針對吳世耀委員提檢列一千兩百萬,我們現在民眾黨團,"},{"start":9538.391,"end":9552.972,"text":"動輒一千兩百萬．民眾黨團提議．列兩千萬．復婚期總召希望到現在為止十一月底．我們觀光署在這個項目所支出的費用多少．以及整體的經費夠否．請先回答之後．再請兩位委員發言請"},{"start":9555.526,"end":9581.137,"text":"謝謝主席跟各位委員的關心我想特別報告一下所有的觀光的費用推出其實有兩個部分一個公務預算一個是基金預算那今天的這個部分的基金預算的部分我們其實在三十四年裡面還包括了我們海外的16個辦事處那麼也希望能夠提升國內疫情之後的旅宿的品質"},{"start":9582.395,"end":9592.892,"text":"所以在交通委員會特別做報告的時候其實有三個部分他希望我們在做斟酌的就是我們希望能夠提升這個旅宿的部分能夠跟"},{"start":9594.426,"end":9612.542,"text":"環境部希望能夠減速這個部分能夠做結合所以我們也持續的在推動所以這個五百萬跟兩百萬重點在這裡另外的是海外的五百萬的推展費所以這個部分也特別希望大家能夠支持那所以當時在交通委員會的時候這個項目是凍結一千兩百萬"},{"start":9615.069,"end":9629.714,"text":"那麼黃委員也特別提到他是希望能夠更能夠督促我們但是我們因為是海外的計畫都在推動了所以我們的預算的執行剩下第四季要去付款"},{"start":9631.13,"end":9647.223,"text":"例如說大家看到我們五月推出了台灣這個3.0版的Wave of Wonder就是希望能夠把台灣的魅力能夠推展出去所以這個像Time Square或者是倫敦的這個地鐵這些費用都在推展費裡面"},{"start":9648.524,"end":9671.23,"text":"而我們也跟各位報告一下觀光署成立的時候是去年的9月我們預算執行的時候是觀光局時代的預算也希望各位委員能夠支持我們在114年度的時候是以觀光署的這樣子一個規模來做推展那當然所有的預算都是在各位的督促之下我們是完全是"},{"start":9671.75,"end":9683.163,"text":"公平公正公開的方式在推動也希望各位委員能夠支持在113年度最後這一筆預算能夠來推動特別以上的補充跟請求"},{"start":9688.615,"end":9716.991,"text":"我想首先第一點我特別要強調倉辦不是個人是台灣民眾黨的黨團提出來的東西所以我必須要跟各位更正跟報告說明第一個因為我們檢列的部分這個所有34億檢列兩千萬並非是很多那另外凍結的部分我也同意副總召國民黨副總召所講把他寫的列的清清楚楚還有第二輪"},{"start":9718.072,"end":9744.472,"text":"所以我們還是認為如果沒有交集就保留吧好李坤臣委員請發言你發言完畢之後我就要處理簽好謝謝院長這倉辦不是我們講的倉辦是你們這一個脈力爭委員所講的那這個其實如果按照剛剛這個國民黨副總召的說法其實30億、34億其實都還不夠都還不夠那這個不能說你既要馬而好又要馬而不吃草"},{"start":9744.952,"end":9748.694,"text":"謝謝李崑禎委。顯然三個黨團對本25案有不同意見,本案保留,我們進入26案。"},{"start":9766.823,"end":9771.407,"text":"二十六個案請問簡列一千兩百萬大家有沒有意見?沒有意見我們"},{"start":9795.646,"end":9812.028,"text":"二十六項沒有意見我們就簡列一千兩百萬我們通過二十七項主決議通過二十八項主決議通過二十九項主決議通過三十二項主決議通過第三十一項主決議通過三十二項主決議通過第五大類"},{"start":9813.109,"end":9834.311,"text":"台鐵局撥入資產及債務管理基金,我們第三十三案改組決議,大家有沒有寶貴意見?沒意見,通過。好,我們進入三十四案,特別收入基金,航港建設基金,第三十四案增列兩百二十萬,有沒有意見?沒意見,通過三十五案改組決議。"},{"start":9835.677,"end":9862.47,"text":"通過36案主決議通過37案主決議通過38案主決議通過好謝謝謝謝我們交通部陳部長各位列席官員好微笑離開謝謝接下來通訊傳播監督基金我們請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主委翁主委請坐"},{"start":9867.267,"end":9892.599,"text":"我們謝謝我們第39案報告院長那個我們通常會有修正文字的一些資料是否現場可以分發當然可以請請請謝謝好你先分發你一面分發我一面徵詢各黨團幹部的意見第39案凍結百分之二十一億零三百二十七萬"},{"start":9894.145,"end":9921.28,"text":"國民黨團曾經為所提出請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見有請吳思瑤幹事長請發言因為這一項現在才剛發下來凍結百分之二十那凍結百分之二十非常高就一億多沒有辦法執行那現在年底了我在想顯然也已經執行了過大部分了所以做成一個過當的凍結完全沒有辦法在預算的程序上來進行"},{"start":9922.621,"end":9925.903,"text":"我們通過第四十案簡列二分之一兩百四十七萬各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":9944.505,"end":9959.66,"text":"請吳思瑤幹事長請發言同樣的齁,495萬,那減練了二分之一,就是一半沒有辦法去支用那因為已經11月底了嘛,同樣的問題,你們已經執行了多少?那這個部分該怎麼處理?"},{"start":9962.614,"end":9977.239,"text":"我再補充一下,可能請大家要大家節省時間,這個白色的已經是最新的,改動節50萬元啦,應該還好吧,只有最新的只要台灣民眾黨提出來,變成50萬,所以這個OK嗎?好,我們同意改動節啊,沒問題啊"},{"start":9989.023,"end":10015.575,"text":"同意凍結五十萬元,我們進入謝謝,我們通過凍結五十萬元。剛剛我說的是四十萬,四十案,對不起。對,我就是四十案啊。虛改凍結五十萬元,OK吼?對,對,對,他OK了,現在可以接受。我們進入四十一案,凍結五十萬元,增加書面報告,請問大家沒意見?沒意見。沒意見,通過。四十二案,凍結五十萬,增加書面報告,有沒有意見?"},{"start":10017.475,"end":10027.199,"text":"每件通過43案凍結50萬元書面報告。每件通過43案檢... 44案,我們建議而已,但是我們這邊要建議。好,主席,我們40案。"},{"start":10036.617,"end":10046.864,"text":"對,因為這個影印本這邊他們改叫說改凍結50萬但是我們沒有任何的委員簽名這個是還沒有改之前的"},{"start":10048.106,"end":10058.495,"text":"對,但是這個影印我們也沒有看到任何人改後簽名,沒有,事實案,事實案,事實案,正本我們沒有看到,這個是我們在修的時候簽的,後面他們花在修的沒有簽名,所以"},{"start":10070.586,"end":10070.706,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":10092.722,"end":10118.916,"text":"這個因為我們總召求證起來他沒有簽這個名那這個又是影印本如果這些未經我們黨團而用其他的東西去把凍檢列百分之五十然後去把它改為其他的文字這個事態嚴重所以拜託院長把它查清楚正本拿出來如果是正本拿出來就沒法好不好"},{"start":10120.157,"end":10140.378,"text":"報告院長,我們可以說明,NCC可以說明,報告院長,剛才就是我們主委有提示,剛才我們翁代理主委有請示院長可不可以把我們NCC的建議修正文字發放給大家,所以這個白色這一份是NCC建議修正文字的版本,"},{"start":10143.46,"end":10144.841,"text":"建議保留"},{"start":10165.031,"end":10187.468,"text":"沒有一個人要偽造,不要講這些偽造文書好不好,人家寫得很清楚是修正文字人家建議修正文字,講話沒有人在偽造文書好不好不好意思喔,來不好意思,我想因為我們這個每個案子都很重要所以我想確定一下,你們發過來因為一般來講,發下來就是你們已經經過溝通過"},{"start":10191.511,"end":10216.285,"text":"然後你上面還有簽名還有這個黨團蓋章所以請NCC說明清楚好嗎NCC請補充說明溝通過的已經送交委會了那我們這個部分是剛才跟院長報告我們是還沒有溝通完你們的期待我知道你們的希望我瞭解這完全是一個誤會我們先定性這個事情是完全一個誤會"},{"start":10217.005,"end":10219.006,"text":"主席對不起主席對不起主席對不起因為他這個是從39案開始我們從39案開始"},{"start":10236.65,"end":10243.653,"text":"三九四十保留,我們進入四十四案。四十四案簡列一百萬科目自行調整,請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見?沒有意見,好,我們簡列一百萬。"},{"start":10261.087,"end":10282.532,"text":"第四十五案改組結議,有沒有意見?沒意見,通過。四十六案沒意見。凍結,十分之一百分之五。請問,好,蔡議員,請發言。那我想這一案是不是還是讓這個,這個NCC是不是先說明一下。請翁主委說明。欸,巴,巴院長,這是不是可以建議改組結議?"},{"start":10288.457,"end":10307.051,"text":"這個案子因為民事的那個我們已經處分9件總共處分了320萬那其中違反事實查證的有6件違反那個風氣兩署的有3件那另外違反個資法的也處罰2件所以說這個案子民事的案子我們已經處罰了320萬是不是建議可以改組決議"},{"start":10310.754,"end":10331.787,"text":"好,請王國文委員,請發言,您是第二位我想剛才那個副總召也有談到就是我們一個處理的一個原則就是先請他們提出書面報告,我們再二輪處理,先請保留,謝謝好,本案保留,請NCC提供書面報告第47案測案,48案測案,49案測案,50案簡列150萬科目自行調整各位黨團剛剛沒有意見嗎?"},{"start":10338.331,"end":10363.206,"text":"每件通過。51案撤案。52案撤案。53案撤案。54案凍結。二分之一五百萬元。二分之一凍結兩百五十萬元。NCCN組委請說明。報告。報告院長。這個案子的話是不是可以建議改組決議?因為這個案子已經執行到年底已經幾乎那個預算都執行了。"},{"start":10364.546,"end":10365.887,"text":"五十六案凍結一百萬元"},{"start":10388.493,"end":10399.835,"text":"還有加書面報告有意見嗎?改書面報告好改書面報告我們就通過57案凍結10分之1、10%請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?請NCC翁主委請再度說明報告我們有跟廖委員報告他是同意建議改那個組決議"},{"start":10413.53,"end":10435.665,"text":"因為現在沒有廖委員的書面的資料,所以我們不好意思,我們必須要謹慎,好嗎?因為沒看到他書面。請蔡議員、蘇議長,請發言。如果照這個主委所說的是廖委員有同意的話,那我們這一案是不是也是先保留,好不好?先保留。"},{"start":10442.802,"end":10465.961,"text":"五十七案保留,我們現在進入五十八案,檢列一百萬元科目自行調整,大家有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。五十九案改組決議,通過。六十案凍結百分之五。請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?發言長,這個案子是不是一樣可以我們再跟廖偉...廖偉...六十案保留,我們等..."},{"start":10466.661,"end":10490.895,"text":"NCC跟提案委員溝通之後再處理。61案凍結5%成績委員提案。NCC主委請說明。報告院長,這個案子是不是可以改組決議?我們會再去溝通。好,本案有黨團提出保留,到時候我們再來處理。我們進入62案改凍結1%"},{"start":10497.021,"end":10518.201,"text":"補充書面報告,大家有沒有意見?請蔡議員請發言因為剛剛這個主委說有一些要再溝通可是我想要問一下說這個再溝通的中間有沒有狀況是事實上你們執行到10月到現在的時候事實上已經執行了差不多了那如果已經執行了差不多了也不用溝通你就提出一個"},{"start":10518.801,"end":10522.842,"text":"六十三案法制業務凍結百分之五十,凍結一百二十四萬。各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見?NCC翁族有沒有意見?"},{"start":10549.715,"end":10552.903,"text":"報告院長,這個案子是不是也可以改成主決議?"},{"start":10558.379,"end":10584.955,"text":"那各位黨團幹部針對翁主委的說明,請吳春城委員請表態意見。這個我們還是要堅持保留。好,我們本案保留。好,六十四案。我們六十四案。八月長,這個秋元已經有簽名了。改凍結十分之一。二十萬元凍結十分之一,凍結兩萬元。對,是。"},{"start":10588.951,"end":10607.46,"text":"動輒兩萬元增加書面報告、補書面報告。好。我們就通過動輒兩萬元增加書面報告。六十五案。檢列五十萬元科目自行調整。大家有意見嗎?沒見通過。六十六案主決議有意見嗎?沒見通過。六十七案主決議通過。沒見通過。六十八案。"},{"start":10608.737,"end":10636.692,"text":"有限電視發展基金改為凍結110萬書面報告有意見嗎?沒有意見,通過69案撤案,70案撤案,71案主決,有意見嗎?沒有意見,通過72案主決,有意見嗎?沒有意見,通過73...翁主委,你還沒有跟上我的腳步,我們已經72了73案主決,各位有沒有寶貴意見?沒有意見,通過"},{"start":10638.035,"end":10643.017,"text":"主席,趁他們換場時間,我們還是來提一下,就是說第一個啊,第一個我們還是要譴責一下NCC啊,怎麼會發一個,你還沒有,對啊,這不對嘛,我們"},{"start":10662.335,"end":10683.402,"text":"不是啊,你不能發這個東西嘛。所以啊。好,第二。來。第二喔。對,我們協商真的還沒看。好,來。第二個齁,就說他這邊什麼椅車啊,提案人還有陳焦華委員啊。這NCC到底在搞什麼鬼啊?"},{"start":10690.4,"end":10694.963,"text":"因為成交委員不是本屆的,當時簽署有成選生委員,獲得成選生委員,他有撤簽,他有寫撤簽。"},{"start":10713.971,"end":10740.646,"text":"好各位黨團幹部我們繼續開會我們現在歡迎列席的法務部政部長熱情歡迎請坐謝謝好我們法務部第一案改組決意大家有意見嗎?沒意見通過第二案改組決意有意見嗎?沒意見通過第三案組決意有意見嗎?沒意見通過第四案組決意有意見嗎?沒意見通過第五案組決意有意見嗎?通過第六案有意見嗎?沒意見通過"},{"start":10743.057,"end":10771.207,"text":"獨品防治基金第七案改簡列二十五萬科目自行調整有意見嗎?沒見通過第八案簡列五百萬元三億兩千四百二十六萬元的預算簡列五百萬科目自行調整大家有意見嗎?沒見通過第九案簡列百分之五然後簡列凍結百分之二十五請法務部請說明"},{"start":10773.628,"end":10789.222,"text":"這部分一般行政管理計畫及辦理這個項目這個我們今天可以接受執行因為剩下到40萬元那是不是可以建立改組決議提出面報告?好 謝謝政務長所提出的改組決議"},{"start":10791.314,"end":10811.257,"text":"剩下書面報告,大家有意見嗎?好,沒有意見,好,我們就尊重政部長的改組決議,增加書面報告,進入第十案,主席有意見嗎?沒見,通過十一案,主席有意見嗎?通過第十二案,主席有意見嗎?沒見,通過第十三案,主席有意見嗎?通過第十四案,主席有意見嗎?沒見,通過"},{"start":10812.978,"end":10833.014,"text":"好!法務部謝謝!謝謝政部長!微笑!離開!啊!聖誕節快樂!好!謝謝!接下來考選部請考選部,劉部長好熱情歡迎您現在進入考選部考選業務基金第15項改組決有意見嗎?沒見通過第16項簡列60萬元請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎?好!請蔡易瑜幹事長"},{"start":10843.098,"end":10866.186,"text":"請考選部說明一下好請考選部劉部長請說明跟主席報告因為我們今年的那個報考人數有減少所以這部分郵寄的確是可以比較少所以這部分可以遵照辦理好考選部也行政機關表達意見沒有問題我們就簡列60萬需要通過第17案簡列500萬元大家有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":10867.755,"end":10868.175,"text":"請考選部劉部長"},{"start":10895.545,"end":10896.646,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10935.046,"end":10936.607,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝各位黨團幹部 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":10955.835,"end":10977.615,"text":"謝謝我們熱情歡迎勞動部紅森漢部長及謝謝各位勞動部所有官員勞動部紅部長第一次來立法院他現在業務還不熟大家可以修理他好謝謝我們進入第一案我們改組決議大家有意見嗎沒見通過第二組決議有意見嗎沒見通過第三組決議有意見嗎"},{"start":10978.516,"end":10989.229,"text":"通過。第四案主決改文字修正有意見嗎?沒見修正通過。第五案主決有意見嗎?沒見通過。我們進入就業安定基金第六案"},{"start":10990.711,"end":11007.775,"text":"我們為改合併委員會決議辦理書面報告,大家有意見嗎?沒見,通過。第七案,改凍結兩千萬元,加書面報告,大家有意見嗎?沒見,通過。第八案,簡列三億元,無事要幹,市長請發言。"},{"start":11010.196,"end":11010.536,"text":"各位委員大家好"},{"start":11026.352,"end":11054.803,"text":"其實這個案子因為他其實現在是在救援基金裡面他主要是在促進國民就業下面的服務費用那其實這一筆其實原本就是在做包括職業訓練包括身心障礙或特定對象的就業訓練就業服務技能檢定其實對於勞動部各種職訓相關的工作來說非常非常關鍵那現在看到單位委員提出簡列三億真的是比較多啦吼那我們是希望能說是不是能夠"},{"start":11055.503,"end":11058.264,"text":"請紅部長說明目前11月底的執行率,或者到年底的"},{"start":11083.953,"end":11093.797,"text":"我目前預計這個案子的執行率目前預計可以到97%97%所以確實現在如果是要3減3億元的話可能還是會有一些問題好林士明書記長那個洪部長已經說明他們預計要執行到97%"},{"start":11103.729,"end":11106.91,"text":"第九案,我們改合併委員會決議辦理,大家有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。第十案,改合併委員會併案辦理,有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。十一案,改組決議,有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。十二案,改組決議。"},{"start":11130.976,"end":11158.927,"text":"通過十三案改組決議。通過十四案改組決議。通過第十五案改組決議。通過第十六案改組決議。通過十七案改組決議。通過第十八案減列三千萬元。請蔡易餘書記長請說明。這一案齁基本上看起來都是屬於這個必要費用水電油電所以我們還是問一下說現在的執行率以及預計的執行率再來再判斷。好謝謝請洪部長請說明。好"},{"start":11161.528,"end":11183.356,"text":"這個也是就安基金下面非常重要的這個外國人聘顧管理及許可計畫下的服務費用目前我其實跟同仁們詢問這個到年底的執行率可以到97、98其實也是執行率相當高的計畫所以目前如果是要按照委員如果是要減列3000萬的話真的也是比較多我們也是希望可以再降低一下這個減列的數字"},{"start":11186.155,"end":11211.684,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝紅部長說明,我們第十八案保留,再等勞動部提供書面報告。好,謝謝,我們進入第十九案。改合併委員會決議辦理,大家有意見嗎?沒意見,通過二十三案改組決議。通過二十一案改合併委員會決議辦理。通過二十三案改組決議。通過二十三案減劣百分之五,凍結四分之一,二十五趴。請勞動部表達意見。"},{"start":11218.905,"end":11235.279,"text":"陳慶惠委員提案在一般行政管理計劃裡面的秘書業務陳慶惠委員有在他的提案裡面講到說其實因為今年編列的金額比較高我想說明一下編列金額比較高的原因第一個原因是因為"},{"start":11237.885,"end":11266.786,"text":"這個因為疫情之後那這個疫情出來其實移工申請的案件的增加第二個也有包括其實有部分的運用人員因為合約的關係他們退休所以目前改用委外的人力所以這個委外人力相關的採購其實也讓委外的處理的計劃的費用其實可能會高一些那也包括有一些在移工申請的案件因為現在要把它全面的線上化所以包括當時其實在立法院當然也有要求說過去可能像一些文件"},{"start":11267.786,"end":11293.982,"text":"韓文只有中文的版本要加上其他語文的版本所以再加上其他語文版本的時候再印出來或相關的文書作業列印上面也會比過去來得多更多的支出主要的來源是這個那這次委員當然提出來的這個簡列的數字坦白說如果按照這個數字簡列下去的話確實會讓這部分會出現非常非常大的困難所以一樣我們還是希望可以來降低簡列的數字那這部分也希望能夠跟"},{"start":11295.924,"end":11296.764,"text":"委員們來做一些討論。謝謝。"},{"start":11309.403,"end":11335.564,"text":"主席還有各位委員其實我們現在針對這個就業安定基金我們可以看得出來那個洪副長上任之後他有很大的企圖心那麼也捍衛這個就業安定基金的這個各個項目的預算但是啊其實以比如說我們現在討論的23案前面因為我們保留嘛就是請他們提出報告"},{"start":11336.567,"end":11356.834,"text":"以二、三案來講,不管是簡略或者尤其在凍結預算數,然後希望他們提出專案報告。我覺得此時此刻,我相信很多廣大的勞工和僱主都非常想要知道我們就業安定基金到底是怎麼用的。是給部長去開個人演唱會嗎?"},{"start":11361.505,"end":11385.638,"text":"是給這些分署長拿來去送他的長官什麼愛馬仕絲巾嗎是不是有這樣的一個挪用跟濫用我們現在因為我們在立法院裡面包含重大的人事案或者是這個預算案其實我們現在要求一個專案報告不為過吧"},{"start":11388.132,"end":11404.774,"text":"現在事實上在都已經被地檢署可能都有會去做偵辦但是我想新任部長上來也應該做一個行政調查我相信部長也應該很想知道過去就業安定基金有沒有被濫用服用亂用的情形"},{"start":11405.971,"end":11406.913,"text":"請紅部長補充說明"},{"start":11421.66,"end":11435.229,"text":"好現在確實我們有看到很多的委員包括社會其實對於然後部下救安基金的使用提出很多的疑問這些是我們其實都看到那我幾點說明第一個確實這段時間有提出來的一些質疑目前"},{"start":11437.05,"end":11465.382,"text":"檢調其實現在確實已經在調查那也包括他們也在做各種調卷部分這部分這個勞動部其實會全力的配合那第二,剛剛王議員其實提到一個重點就是說其實要來做專案報告我想勞動部不會去推託要來到立法院針對這個做專案報告的事情就我所知其實下禮拜蘇清泉委員蘇清泉召委好像也排了相關的專案報告其實要來所以我們絕對不會去推託這件事情"},{"start":11466.395,"end":11490.51,"text":"至於現在大家一旦談到的有一些科目的使用適不適合我自己其實我們也請勞發署為這兩天那我也跟勞發署說了科目上面合不合適這件事情我們絕對會來做檢討那我比大家更想知道我比大家更希望勞動部下面相關的基金的運用希望能夠合乎社會的期待這部分我們會來檢討謝謝"},{"start":11492.65,"end":11518.037,"text":"謝謝黃部長的說明,我們二、三項保留,補充書面報告。這個可不可以就照案通過啊,也給我們那個勞動部一個專案報告的空間吧。哇,現在黃輝委員現在提出來,我們就把他照案通過。沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,院長。因為這個預算他到底現在執行的狀況怎樣不知道。所以他,你又減劣,然後又凍結25%,這個我覺得,齁。"},{"start":11523.137,"end":11550.978,"text":"我們還是一樣保留阿然後讓他們提書面去說明一下現在的使用狀況好謝謝我們就保留本案好保留本案OK23案23案我們就保留我們補充書面報告好嗎好謝謝24案主角有意見嗎每件通過25案有意見嗎每件通過26案主角有意見嗎每件通過27案主角有意見嗎每件通過"},{"start":11554.306,"end":11554.728,"text":"哇,喘一口氣啊。"},{"start":11556.994,"end":11584.991,"text":"二十八案主決議有異見嗎?通過二十九案主決議有異見嗎?通過三十案主決議有異見嗎?通過三十一案主決議有異見嗎?通過三十二案主決議有異見嗎?通過三十三案主決議有異見嗎?通過三十四案主決議有異見嗎?通過好,我們進入信託基金、勞退基金第三十五案增列八十億元請問各位黨、紅部長請說明嗯,遵照辦理"},{"start":11588.543,"end":11611.977,"text":"勞動部表示願意配合全力辦理,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見,好,我們照案通過增列八十一元,第三十六案存款利息收入增列兩億元,紅部長請說明,好,勞動部表達配合辦理,謝謝三十六案通過三十七案增列一百二十億元,請紅部長補充說明,"},{"start":11614.158,"end":11614.818,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11638.534,"end":11657.977,"text":"衛福部,我們熱情歡迎衛福部邱部長。各位衛福部官員請坐。我們進入醫療藥品基金。第38案,該組決議有意見嗎?每件通過39案組決議。文字修正有意見嗎?每件修正通過40案組決議。通過41案組決議。通過42案組決議。通過43案組決議。通過44案。"},{"start":11668.973,"end":11679.802,"text":"改檢列三百萬元,請邱部長說明。為服務表達,配合辦理。請陳昭之委員請發言。"},{"start":11683.087,"end":11684.788,"text":"第四十四案,檢列三百萬元衛福部配合辦理。黨黨幹部門接受。"},{"start":11712.876,"end":11716.658,"text":"四十六案簡列三百萬元,衛福部請表達意見。"},{"start":11739.32,"end":11740.761,"text":"衛福部表達,配合辦理。"},{"start":11754.429,"end":11769.185,"text":"通過54案主決議、通過55案主決議、通過56案主決議、通過57案主決議、通過58案文字修正、修正通過59案文字修正、修正通過60案文字修正、"},{"start":11775.127,"end":11787.177,"text":"主席,對不起,因為剛剛既然有往回跑的,那我也往回確認一下。剛剛40案是主決議,所以主決議衛福部也沒有修正民眾黨委員的任何文字。"},{"start":11788.178,"end":11813.854,"text":"所以現在民眾黨委員針對這個組決議就是都要照你們的文字來辦理。所以你們要保留的意思是什麼?因為我們對於這個提供的書面...等一下等一下,因為這個組決議的意思你們要求衛福部醫療藥品基金三個月內提出偏鄉醫師長期需求改進方案。他們要提出然後每半年要繳交後續追蹤報告。他們必須照你們的要求辦理。"},{"start":11814.935,"end":11836.686,"text":"所以這個主決意有什麼好保留的我要請問這件事情因為它不涉及預算的簡略凍結而且完全遵照貴黨所提出來的主決意的文字要辦理不管是三個月的報書面報告或是每半年繳交追蹤報告都要遵照了那請問你們保留什麼"},{"start":11839.033,"end":11840.434,"text":"沒有修正你們的任何文字"},{"start":11864.948,"end":11879.853,"text":"他們有提供書面資料但是我們跟他溝通的時候沒有達到我們的要求所以希望就是這個保留他們再來溝通我們希望這保留這個就是我們的黨團的意見保留哪一部分"},{"start":11886.116,"end":11912.229,"text":"他現在是完全跟你們同意他同意你們的建議請問要保留什麼?他們就是有同意但是他們拿的資料過來我們看了沒有是我們要求所以才要叫他再來修正才要保留啊沒有保留這保留什麼院長?"},{"start":11913.51,"end":11929.133,"text":"你對於你們的決議文字有什麼樣的意見?完全遵照貴黨的決議文字,我們沒意見的照你們的案通過。對啊,所以我要確認你們為什麼要保留呢?因為都照你們的通過啊。請讓麥委員跟陳委員讓他們表達意見好嗎?"},{"start":11938.155,"end":11941.217,"text":"第六十二 國民年金保險基金每件通過"},{"start":11959.662,"end":11979.751,"text":"六十四案改組決議,大家有意見嗎?每件通過六十五案改組決議,有意見嗎?每件通過六十六案檢列百分之五,凍結二十分之二,請表達,衛福部請表達意見。跟主席還有各位人報告,六十六案我們建議改成組決議。"},{"start":11985.174,"end":12003.13,"text":"主決議的內容報告一下我先報告一下這個案子三千多萬都是在用在食安基金補助地方衛生局的稽查還有食安的人力所以這個案子錢已經依照進度撥給地方衛生局來執行"},{"start":12004.511,"end":12014.709,"text":"那報告一下我們建議改為主決議的內容那依照第六十六案提案的內容的第六行第六行"},{"start":12016.164,"end":12040.803,"text":"食品安全績效之設定後面的文字到第七行、第八行都劃掉改成原請衛生福利部持續確實依衛生福利部食品安全保護基金補助從事促進食品安全事務業務或研究之相關計劃申請作業須知進行"},{"start":12044.775,"end":12066.016,"text":"斗典接下來接第九行補助經中央主管機關指定或公開徵選者從事其有關促進食品安全之相關費用斗號令於三個月內提交書面報告以上報告"},{"start":12067.705,"end":12072.507,"text":"委員長,我們要謝謝衛福部的官員這麼認真,但是下一次部長所屬的官員不要來這裡教導我們你們要怎麼修正"},{"start":12091.226,"end":12115.506,"text":"怎麼會你們來教導我們怎麼修正呢?然後再把你們想要的文字念一次給我們聽?你應該去溝通的不是來這裡溝通啊?怎麼會來這裡啊?我們這一本都照你的意思,全部重新念一次,要念多久啊?這第一齁,本案是一定要保留,你們沒有處理好,你們沒有處理好的話,我們就會表決了。這第一。第二,那個昭知委員齁,還有那個麥毓貞齁,"},{"start":12119.076,"end":12130.313,"text":"你們對於113年的主決議,如果他們來要來虛與委蛇,主決議他們經常是這樣子的,如果虛與委蛇在114年的預算的時候你們再來提,好不好,就這樣。"},{"start":12136.066,"end":12164.691,"text":"謝謝院長這個我剛有聽你們的報告這個都是給地方政府的衛生局都撥給他們了是不是?是講一下你們現在撥補的這個進度還有費用比例是多少?請衛福部表達一下是我們已經按照他們申請的經費完全撥補目前執行率99%阿對啊這個是給地方政府的衛生局阿去凍結他的預算是沒有意思阿好"},{"start":12166.213,"end":12177.891,"text":"稍微等一下那個剛才這個衛福部答第六十六項是補助衛生局九十九趴但是國民黨副分局委員總召表達保留那我們到時候我們有書面報告出來我們再來書面報告之後我們再來"},{"start":12182.393,"end":12182.573,"text":"﹚主席﹚"},{"start":12212.393,"end":12235.668,"text":"委員通過六十九案改組決有意見嗎?有意見通過七十案改組決有意見嗎?通過七十一案檢列五千萬元衛福部請表達意見邱部長遵照辦理好謝謝衛福部表達意見為配合好我們七十一案檢列五千萬通過七十二案改組決通過七十三案"},{"start":12237.119,"end":12266.365,"text":"文字修正,大家有意見嗎?沒意見,修正通過。七十四案,我們通過。七十五案,文字修正,我們修正通過。七十六案,有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。七十七案,有意見嗎?沒意見,通過。七十八案,有文字修正,大家有意見嗎?修正通過。七十九案,文字修正,有意見嗎?沒意見,修正通過。八十案,有意見嗎?通過。八十一案,文字修正,有意見嗎?"},{"start":12267.546,"end":12294.935,"text":"修正通過現在只有國民黨臨時民委員配額度最高還講沒有大家其他都不講話麻煩講個話讓我有點成就感好嗎我們第82案疫苗基金大家有意見嗎好多了83案有意見嗎好沒意見通過82有意見嗎好有意見的請有意見好沒意見通過85案文字修正大家有意見嗎"},{"start":12298.574,"end":12315.881,"text":"文字修正有意見嗎?沒有意見。文字修正修正通過87案。文字修正修正通過88案。文字修正修正通過89案。沒有意見。我們文字修正修正通過90案。沒有意見。通過91案。"},{"start":12319.946,"end":12346.146,"text":"我們通過好謝謝衛福部邱部長謝謝各位衛福部官員微笑請回接下來我們要審查環境部環保基金我們請環境部彭部長熱情歡迎您請坐好"},{"start":12347.39,"end":12373.732,"text":"各位黨團幹部我們進入第九十二案環境保護基金第九十二案改合併委員會決議辦理書面報告有意見嗎?沒見通過九十三案改凍結兩百萬請彭部長表達意見報告委員這個已經專案委員都書面簽名也蓋章了造案謝謝好環環境部表達配合辦理我們本案凍結兩百萬元"},{"start":12375.834,"end":12405.032,"text":"通過94案凍結200萬元,請環境部表達意見。報告委員長,這個已經書面報告以簽名蓋章了,謝謝。好,謝謝。環境部,請黃宏威委員發言。現在我們討論的是94案,是不是?94案,現在說本來是凍結數15%,所以要不要確定一下,是不是已經那個,你們召之?曾召之委員,提案委員,請表達意見。"},{"start":12406.462,"end":12432.956,"text":"你確定你簽字蓋章了嗎?我蓋了蓋章好謝謝謝謝王宏偉委員陳昭之委員我們本案凍結兩百萬元通過九十五案撤案九十六案撤案九十七案改合併委員會決議辦理書面報告通過九十八案改組決議通過林士兵委員你要配合一下好九十九案改合併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":12435.137,"end":12459.66,"text":"每一件通過。一百案改合併委員會決議動辦理書面報告。有一件嗎?每一件?同意。把那個動刪掉改決議辦理。對。就通過一百零一案改合併委員會決議辦理。"},{"start":12461.657,"end":12469.822,"text":"書面報告通過102改合併委員會決議辦理通過103改合併委員會決議辦理書面報告增加書面報告沒意見通過104改合併委員會決議辦理書面報告通過105改合併委員會決議辦理通過102文字修正組決議有意見嗎?修正通過107有意見嗎?"},{"start":12489.329,"end":12514.09,"text":"通過108案文字修正改修正好我們修正通過109案主決議有文字修正大家有沒有好修正通過110案主決議有文字修正修正通過111案文字修正主決議有意見嗎修正通過112案文字修正好我們修正通過113案測案"},{"start":12516.331,"end":12542.964,"text":"一百一十四案文字修正主決議有意見嗎?修正通過一百一十五案有意見嗎?沒意見主決議。通過一百一十六案主決議。通過一百一十七案主決議。通過一百一十八案主決議有文字修正。大家有寶貴意見嗎?修正通過一百一十九案主決議。通過一百一百二十案有文字修正。大家有寶貴意見嗎?修正通過一百二十一案。"},{"start":12544.383,"end":12556.939,"text":"主決議大家有修正,文字修正大家有寶貴意見嗎?修正通過一百二十二案,我們主決議有文字修正大家有寶貴意見嗎?沒有修正通過一百二十三案,主決議有意見嗎?"},{"start":12558.834,"end":12581.69,"text":"沒有意見,好,通過,謝謝彭部長,微笑返回,謝謝。跟各位黨團幹部報告,我們昨天營業項目保留8案,今天非營業項目我們保留23案。113年度附屬單位預算案營業及非營業共保留31案,我們休息5分鐘。"},{"start":12591.916,"end":12592.396,"text":"案相關事宜．．"},{"start":12609.891,"end":12610.351,"text":"二、國民黨團提議．．．．．"},{"start":12659.665,"end":12661.466,"text":"打過招呼啦打過招呼了啦"},{"start":12674.957,"end":12682.005,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12740.043,"end":12740.425,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12776.596,"end":12801.607,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議）））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議））一、國民黨黨團提議�"},{"start":12804.292,"end":12826.152,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":12863.178,"end":12884.414,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部請就座特別跟各位黨團幹部報告一下我們這兩天所處理的營業跟非營業預算已經告一段落我們現在有一個協商草稿現在請議事人員已經發到各位黨團幹部手上那如果等一下我會宣讀看看大家的意見如果可以的話我們就來簽字"},{"start":12886.621,"end":12908.144,"text":"至於保留部分,我們進行第二輪部分,各黨團繼續保持溝通,先讓幕僚單位能夠製作宣讀本以及保留本。我這個協商結論有兩項,敬請大家共同來參考一下。一、各黨團同意本案之討論程序及決定事項,如附件一。"},{"start":12909.265,"end":12932.896,"text":"通案提案及各委員會通過之協商內容含保留部分如附件二由各委員會整理宣讀本及保留本交各黨團確認後送財政委員會附件一及附件二由財政委員會於十二月十日星期二中午十二點前送議事處以立院會處理"},{"start":12935.253,"end":12951.526,"text":"二、本案於12月13日星期五院會進行處理（非保留部分宣讀後均予以通過（保留部分均暫保留（保留部分進行處理之前（由台灣民眾黨推派一位"},{"start":12952.307,"end":12970.861,"text":"民主進步黨推派一位．國民黨團推派一位．因上述黨團順序發言．每人發言時間三分鐘．發言完畢之後．我們各保留提案均不再發言．及開始進行保留部分之表決．"},{"start":12972.162,"end":12996.889,"text":"三、本次協商各項提案我們均予以刊登公報記錄請問各黨團幹部對於各位手上剛才我所所宣讀的決定事項有沒有意見請吳世堯幹事長請發言謝謝院長想再確認一下議事人員確認一下因為這我初步看來也是依王立的處理方式所以就是雙軌並行"},{"start":12998.769,"end":13025.078,"text":"第二點就是很明確的告訴我們院會12月13號星期五來處理要保留的那些案子那其他部分可以財政委員會先去處理議案的先去處理但是這裡頭可能比較沒有要跟詢問一下院長那我們保留的案子沒有一個終極在討論的協商嗎對不對照理講因為保留是保留嘛"},{"start":13027.22,"end":13044.139,"text":"對,就是昨天起案其實照理講應當要有一個二輪因為呢,像剛剛大家就是都還印象猶新嘛記憶猶新就是剛剛副總召要求他們提供資料然後如果OK其實是可以直接來做"},{"start":13045.119,"end":13046.48,"text":"請議事處高處長解釋一下,報告一下"},{"start":13071.823,"end":13091.079,"text":"跟各位黨編報告我們這一個協商草案的草稿確實是依照過去的慣例寫的那這個保留本的部分剛才主席有宣告說先讓幕僚單位去整理宣讀本跟保留本那剛剛院長也有說明了目前保留的案子就是那幾案那"},{"start":13092.148,"end":13117.899,"text":"各委員會會拿保留本去跟各黨團確認那好比說剛剛在協商的時候呢有要求部會要送一些資料那他們可能就這占保留的概念他就不在了他會在保留本上面說這個案子他是要測案或是說他就改成什麼之類的那如果保留本回來之後各委員會會去跟財委會講說我們的保留本本來是有這些案可是事實上有一些是測案什麼"},{"start":13118.419,"end":13137.997,"text":"然後院長再看說要不要大家選擇一天再進行第二輪確認如果大家都有共識說要進行第二輪就確認阿如果說不要的話我們在星期五的時候院會進完宣讀本宣讀完之後進行保留本進行到這一案的時候如果大家黨邊都有簽名院長會說這一案保留本這一案因為黨團共識"},{"start":13139.719,"end":13151.153,"text":"因為已經講好了怎麼樣我們就那個過去有這種處理方式然後也可以進行第二輪也可以就是等於是先讓幕僚去製作保留本之後確認的過程當中就可以保持溝通以上"},{"start":13155.121,"end":13177.12,"text":"請發言報告院長我想剛剛的才是我認為一定是需要程序上本來也應當有二輪的協商為什麼呢因為剛剛的每一個案子的保留剛剛議事人員的意思是說去跟該提案的委員說明好OK的OK可是事實上今天在朝野協商的保留案是"},{"start":13177.66,"end":13202.432,"text":"三黨同意下的保留案．所以勢必要回到三黨都在的朝野協商的場域進行二輪我非常期待有二輪也看行政部門你們就要這段時間想方設法努力去說服提案的委員也許到最後再來二輪協商可能只剩下15案剩下10案所以這樣的二輪的協商是不能夠跳過的"},{"start":13203.533,"end":13222.138,"text":"好,我想各黨邊都願意來承擔這樣的協商的責任所以換言之第二點之前是不是要再加個前提在院會處理前我們會再進行二輪的協商那我同意把時間先壓著大家可以做準備沒有問題一定要有二輪協商一定要有"},{"start":13223.583,"end":13247.3,"text":"跟國民黨團、台灣民眾黨團報告一下,我是想要跟國民黨團的意思,如果說我們一定要進行二輪,我們時間點大概會在12月11號跟12號。那我會跟副院長來,我們會調我們的主持院會的時間。那我們再抽出時間來,還是三個黨團大家坐在一起,針對保留案件我們進行二輪。那這是他的意思,請問國民黨團跟民眾黨團有沒有寶貴意見?沒有的話我們就把它針列進去了。"},{"start":13247.5,"end":13262.517,"text":"蘇議長請說"},{"start":13262.797,"end":13283.877,"text":"所以說11號12號要進行二輪協商的話那個書面他們一定要趕著這個時間趕快給我們我們要時間消耗那行政單位我們這樣審查他不提書面他就麻木不忍怎麼可能勒他一定會提的嘛所以我們一定要提出來關鍵是我們的時間那時間上我們是可以配合我們訂出時間行政單位可以配合大家審查保留這個沒有問題的他們一定要做"},{"start":13284.838,"end":13308.169,"text":"好,那我們大概,我們現在增進去,時間點讓大家預告心裡大概有個底但我們會在12月11、12左右,我們則一天進行二輪,針對保留的項目我們來進行二輪討論,好嗎?好,我們現在增進去之後,我們就協商草稿的部分,再說這個由財委會12月10號中午送議事處,後面我加幾個字"},{"start":13309.089,"end":13314.131,"text":"並於十二月十一日開始進行保留本的第二次協商。"},{"start":13339.957,"end":13364.087,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13376.504,"end":13386.893,"text":"．﹚國民黨黨團提議．﹚國民黨黨團提議．﹚國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":13405.747,"end":13411.873,"text":"﹚立法院黨團協商．一、繼續研商．一、繼續研商．一、繼續研商"},{"start":13424.634,"end":13424.834,"text":"主席"},{"start":13442.632,"end":13451.555,"text":"這個應該是合理的,這個怎麼樣都會是這樣看,對不對,這跟實況差不多,現況應該是這樣,這個就...這樣是不是程序就會比較清楚,我們也做得出來,所以這一定要有,不建議一起唸"},{"start":13471.901,"end":13472.061,"text":"主席"},{"start":13499.514,"end":13511.903,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13513.043,"end":13513.724,"text":"案相關事宜））"},{"start":13536.186,"end":13536.566,"text":"委員會在開公聽會"},{"start":13565.564,"end":13568.247,"text":"全院委員會開的公聽會,呼籲召委不要"},{"start":13587.985,"end":13589.326,"text":"主席有呼籲,呼籲不是說強制"},{"start":13604.121,"end":13620.111,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13622.172,"end":13622.352,"text":"主席﹚議員﹚"},{"start":13647.118,"end":13647.558,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13670.626,"end":13680.989,"text":"因為會組還算成就委員會我們會跟他對,這個一定要跟他們對,因為我們沒有什麼厲害我是新同學,所以請出話這個性質差太多了"},{"start":13686.351,"end":13686.912,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13708.384,"end":13717.346,"text":"當時是科建民生徵友團委員無意刪掉,因為那感覺沒有功能。因為現在沒有聯席會。財政委員會要主政,所以整個財政委員會,當時他們同意刪掉,因為造業會沒有意義。"},{"start":13729.631,"end":13742.758,"text":"所以你剛才問的權力委員會的規則就把那個拿掉。可是那其實公平會也是權力委員會召開的公平會,那些性質?權力委員會應該附屬在,比如說頭銜在那整個一塊在土地。"},{"start":13744.739,"end":13753.907,"text":"是這樣,但是因為現在沒有法院,所以沒有法院,有些委員會,有些委員會他的召集委員要他開禮或什麼的,也沒辦法開禮。就是沒有法規啦,尊重他們,對。請用不用。"},{"start":13775.041,"end":13783.658,"text":"請問一下,我們回去,承辦員還是會跟各位委員會對過,對不對?因為剛剛秘書長是說,我們就是到時候還是要對一下他們的,我們可以跟他們對一下。"},{"start":13786.349,"end":13786.849,"text":"案相關事宜"},{"start":13825.088,"end":13834.296,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部謝謝也謝謝各位列席的官員那我再把剛才增加的部分再一次跟各位報導一下我們決定了三樣"},{"start":13836.96,"end":13862.93,"text":"決定事項一、各黨團同意本案之討論程序及決定事項如附件一、通案提案及各委員會通過之協商內容含保留部分如附件二、由各委員會整理宣讀本及保留本交各黨團確認後送財政委員會附件一及附件二由財政委員會於十二月十日星期二中午十二點前送議事處"},{"start":13865.271,"end":13887.916,"text":"院會處理,並於12月11日星期三進行保留本第二輪協商。二、本案於12月13日星期五院會進行處理,非保留部分宣讀後均予以通過,保留部分暫保留,保留部分進行處理前由台灣民眾黨推派一位"},{"start":13889.178,"end":13918.122,"text":"民主進步黨推派一位．國民黨團推派一位．一、上述黨團順序發言．每人發言時間三分鐘．發言完畢之後．我們各保留提案均不再發言．及開始進行保留部分之表決．三、本次協商各項提案均與刊登公報記錄．請問各黨團幹部．對這三項．我們決定四項．有意見嗎．沒意見好我先簽字"},{"start":13927.882,"end":13931.943,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分討論程序及決定事項一、討論程序"},{"start":13947.386,"end":13962.276,"text":"小一、順序為先行討論通案決議,再依審查總報告,所列各委員會營業部分及非營業部分之順序討論,以協商過之單位原則不再處理"},{"start":13964.175,"end":13982.722,"text":"大二,決定事項。小一,中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分審查總報告所列未送院會處理項目,除卻有自在難行者在協商。依協商結論。"},{"start":13984.349,"end":13998.329,"text":"通過外﹐其餘均照各委員會審查會議決議通過﹐自送院會處理項目﹐協商有結論者﹐依協商結論通過﹐協商未獲結論者交付表決。"},{"start":14000.396,"end":14012.69,"text":"並依表決結果通過。小二、各委員會審查結果、協商結論均應依通案決議辦理,不再逐一與各單位協商。結果來續明。請各位繼續簽。好。"},{"start":14024.073,"end":14053.068,"text":"另外重要跟宣告一下跟大家報告一下一、我們跟大家補充報告明天的院會跟上週五一樣只開會半天就散會所以拜託各位黨團幹部通知每位委員請準時簽到第二、這會期即將進入12月因為是預決算會期我們還有一個112年度決算案要處理邀請監察院審計長來進行報告過去有利用院會半天時間來處理"},{"start":14055.322,"end":14055.963,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論"},{"start":14071.56,"end":14082.773,"text":"決定事項各黨團同意12月17日下午邀請審計部審計長列席報告《112年度中央政府總決算審核報告審核經過並備諮詢》。"},{"start":14087.445,"end":14105.154,"text":"質詢人數由國民黨團推派四位,民主進步黨推派四位,台灣民眾黨黨團推派一位進行。質詢的順序依例授權議事處辦理。名單請各黨團於12月16日星期一中午12點前送至議事處會診。"},{"start":14107.188,"end":14113.791,"text":"議案詢答完畢後即交付審查。各黨團同意提出復議。當日會議我們不處理臨時提案。請問各黨團幹部對此協商結論預擬有沒有寶貴意見?"},{"start":14140.458,"end":14144.26,"text":"所以17號早上是考試委員投票,下午是審計部審計長來報告。"},{"start":14157.93,"end":14183.508,"text":"請問一下因為就那個議程表因為17號那一天是在行使考試院院長好早上那是有必要如果說那幾號啊20號不行嗎20號的院會來處理處理審計長的這個報告不行嗎看一下因為20號目前沒有排定什麼樣子的議程"},{"start":14185.203,"end":14195.511,"text":"因為整天約會那天也可以進行啊。只是商量一下,因為那天看起來目前沒有什麼太多"},{"start":14198.193,"end":14199.955,"text":"我想問一下二十號不可以的理由是什麼?"},{"start":14227.168,"end":14245.56,"text":"整天因為目前沒有你說的那些議案存在目前沒有啊所以為什麼不要20號呢"},{"start":14249.998,"end":14250.798,"text":"我想休息兩分鐘"},{"start":14274.951,"end":14285.773,"text":"請問等一下會處理法案嗎?那我是不是要告退了還是不行?我們可以告退了嗎?還是不行?我跟你說,我把東西拿下"},{"start":14304.286,"end":14305.387,"text":"﹚立法院黨團提議．﹚"},{"start":14318.148,"end":14342.637,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":14344.957,"end":14352.503,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝經過溝通 大家都同意 那麼我現在先簽字 接下來請各黨團幹部來簽字好我們接下來OK"},{"start":14381.628,"end":14382.328,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14398.941,"end":14415.012,"text":"好,謝謝各位黨團幹部。對不起,原住民真主委跟各位原住民委員會的所有的列席官員,不好意思,因為我們案子比較多,讓大家等了一下。我們現在研商有關原住民民委員會組織法第三條、第四條及第七條條文修正草案。"},{"start":14416.564,"end":14431.945,"text":"本案於10月6日由國民黨團吳宗憲委員召集,並與協商鄭天才16位及高金素美等24位分別凝聚《原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案》。"},{"start":14433.527,"end":14447.483,"text":"以及院會進副二讀黃人委員等29位委員凝聚（原住民委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案及鄭天才委員等18人凝聚（"},{"start":14448.72,"end":14473.589,"text":"原住民族委員會組織法第三條、第四條及第七條條文修正草案案（各黨團、代表軍出席討論,但是沒有達成共識。我們現在先請提案的國民黨團說明,也請民進黨團說明,也請表達各位的寶貴意見,請。我們請提案的鄭天才委員,請發言。"},{"start":14474.963,"end":14498.331,"text":"好,院長,各黨團,還有我們的行政機關。有關原住民族委員會組織法第三條的部分,原來我提的第二項,我在委員會審查的時候也提了修正同意,就把第三條的第二項就已經不列了。"},{"start":14499.071,"end":14522.378,"text":"所以後來建附二讀的這個第三條也沒有這個第二項我們就第二項就不用討論之所以第三條的第一項會做這樣的一個修正就是主任委員要由三地原住民以平地原住民輪流擔任最主要就是因為原住民族的這個所在的地區"},{"start":14523.773,"end":14545.935,"text":"這個有三十個山地鄉還有二十五個平地原住民的地區然後加上因為這個工作的就業的關係在都會期也已經達到這個百分之四十幾了在都會期所以這涉及到整個前台灣都有我們原住民族"},{"start":14546.564,"end":14567.438,"text":"的一個基礎的和工作的所以在這樣一個情形之下這個山地原住民跟平地原住民因為這麼遼闊這個主任委員對這些地區不是那麼的全盤了解然後從過去的主任委員的一個擔任來看的話從延民會從85年12月"},{"start":14571.983,"end":14576.712,"text":"開始成立到現在差不多將近27年多了那這樣這麼長的時間了"},{"start":14579.396,"end":14605.016,"text":"我是平地原住民但是我雖然是目前平地原住民擔任主任委員的話將近20年了27年多裡面有將近20年比如說這個馬英九執政的這8年都是平地原住民當主任委員蔡英文總統8年也都是這個平地原住民所以這樣算起來就是已經有20"},{"start":14607.489,"end":14612.55,"text":"謝謝政策委員發言接下來還有兩位列席的原住民委員我想要先他們個別發言一下再請黨黨幹部好嗎因為這跟他們切身相關的法案我們接下來請"},{"start":14631.115,"end":14653.256,"text":"高靜委員發言 陳穎委員請準備第三條的部分我同意鄭天才委員的說法因為一位包括陳穎委員是平地原住民我是山地原住民在憲法裡面就分平地原住民跟山地原住民的部分那我就是針對第四條我來簡單的說明一下還是待會第三條那我同意鄭天才委員陳穎委員請發言我們只有針對第三條"},{"start":14659.543,"end":14659.563,"text":"吳麗華委員"},{"start":14675.716,"end":14694.974,"text":"臺亞族也好,或者還有甚至很多的族群,其實都有這個,不是像臺亞族就全部都是山園,也有部分的臺亞族在南庄他們是平原。那也有,還有一些,當然台灣族、盧凱族也是一樣的狀況。"},{"start":14696.696,"end":14713.71,"text":"幾乎每一族都有很多的族群都有這樣的狀況那只是比例多好問題那當然還有另外一個問題就是說如果這個父母都是原住民有的是山一個是山園一個是平原當然他們未來身份也是都可以改來改去"},{"start":14714.81,"end":14738.245,"text":"現在就是說回歸到這個主任委員本席還是認為能力上能不能擔任這個職位還是最重要的當然我們被分成三元平原過去有一些不得已的歷史背景那未來或許大家也會努力希望全部"},{"start":14739.505,"end":14742.948,"text":"陳英委員不同意第三條修正案,有保留意見。沒問題,我們鄭主委請發言之後請吳思堯委員準備。好,請。"},{"start":14768.204,"end":14782.044,"text":"主席還有各位委員我這邊的意見是這個山地原住民、平地原住民其實只有在選舉的時候不一樣我選山人,你選平野其實所有的權利都一樣"},{"start":14783.746,"end":14808.158,"text":"那麼你這個顏住民的身份,比如說我是3D顏住民那麼顏民會的各項的這個政策的服務還有業務的推動不會因為我是3D顏住民就不會照顧平地顏住民所以這個沒有一定,完全是應該是講,應該是以能不能私認這個工作"},{"start":14809.306,"end":14837.099,"text":"謝謝曾主委說明接下來請吳思瑤委員請發言謝謝非常尊重提案委員的意見因為我們也花了一些時間去了解一下這些歷史的背景事實上我們也了解原住民族的社會裡頭現在的趨勢是反而更想去打破山園跟平原這種的差異分別"},{"start":14837.859,"end":14857.909,"text":"他畢竟來自於殖民時期的一個歷史的遺留那現在的這個都會區大家混居的原住民的朋友也是多數了所以在分別上去分身份我覺得這個已經有點違反走回頭路的感覺那第二個事情呢我也非常同意剛剛幾位委員的發言用人為財"},{"start":14859.233,"end":14877.866,"text":"在這個舉借優良人才的部分這個行政權在人事權的任用上我相信任命者都會針對這個是才是所為作為主要的一個考量那我也去調出過去原住民族委員會從李登輝前總統到現在的歷任主委的"},{"start":14878.393,"end":14878.593,"text":"委員會組織法"},{"start":14896.661,"end":14918.043,"text":"那小英總統的時期是任命平原的原住民那賴清德總統是任命山原的原住民所以換言之在歷屆總統的內閣的組成對於山原平原都有非常平均的一個也不能講平均我覺得還是用人為財是核心但如果以這個分布來分析的話事實上都有兼顧並沒有說"},{"start":14919.184,"end":14919.664,"text":"８立法院黨團提議８"},{"start":14945.559,"end":14947.983,"text":"致謝吳斯堯幹事長發言。接下來請林思明書記長請發言。臺灣民眾黨請準備。"},{"start":14961.328,"end":14977.434,"text":"不管其實是三原也好、平原也好,都有非常優秀的人才。因為我們看歷年以來都是由這個平原來擔任嘛。難道三原就沒有優秀的人才嗎?所以我們不能一概而論說,這個由平原來擔任,好像平原又比較優秀。"},{"start":14978.394,"end":14996.26,"text":"其實我們看到就是說整個現在我們的整個公職人員不管是我們立委也好或者是我們的地方縣市議員都是相正常也是有3D的議員3D原住民議員以及平地原住民議員都有這樣的區別所以主委"},{"start":14996.86,"end":15018.781,"text":"他當然就是要由我們認為應該由這個3D原住民跟平地原住民來擔任才能夠對他們的整個族群的一個帶領才有一個平衡的這樣的一個對也是培養相關的這個3D原住民或平地原住民的相關的人才所以我們認為有輪流擔任的一個必要性"},{"start":15020.484,"end":15026.134,"text":"所以如果說一直大家的意見是不一致的那我們就保留送院會處理好謝謝"},{"start":15028.883,"end":15052.294,"text":"臺灣民眾黨請發言臺灣民眾黨不發言接下來請蔡依依跟蘇議長請發言就是事實上大家的目的都是一樣就是希望用人為財那原住民的族委這個原民會的族委可以好好的照顧原住民那我們為什麼一定要把原住民再把他用山園跟平原然後把他做這樣的一個區隔化"},{"start":15052.734,"end":15071.836,"text":"因為真正有意義的區隔是指他的族群像盧凱族阿美族這才是一個有意義的區隔那如果按照這樣的一個條文他叫做輪流擔任那輪流擔任這個輪流這兩個字表示說他不得連任或者是他"},{"start":15073.216,"end":15100.727,"text":"內閣有做替換的時候他就必須要被換就必須要被換的這樣一個概念輪流嘛因為他沒有任期制那你要想如果今天是一個表現很好的一個主委那他遇到這個內閣改組的時候因為輪流所以他不得不得連任了不得繼續當了那這樣的話對於原住民是最好的嗎就是說因為這個政策是一個非常中性的他主要是要用人就是"},{"start":15101.187,"end":15129.998,"text":"找最好的人來擔任這個原住民的族委那你用輪流的話也許一個表現很好的族委他就因為卡在輪流他就下一次就要得換成不同的族委因為這個輪流這兩個字他就等於是說他就把這個等於是把院長的人事權完全卡住了因為他不得連任嘛輪流對啊人才很多但是"},{"start":15133.451,"end":15160.622,"text":"我覺得如果今天是有任期制的那我們來講輪流就是說不得連任的意思那你現在這個輪流下去你就變得非常的狹隘甚至說因為每一個人都會有每一個首長部會首長會有政治責任也可能我今天因為某一些事我因為政治責任下台那下台後又回到這個輪流又要換不同的這樣真的是很怪啦我覺得大家可以再思考一下"},{"start":15161.282,"end":15189.579,"text":"謝謝蔡議員、蘇議長發言,接下來請高金委員請我補充一下,謝謝蔡議員、幹事長您剛剛說的,蘇機長,對不起抱歉您剛剛說的會剝奪行政院長的任用權,並沒有因為行政院長,人民會主委是跟著行政院長的任期更換的他如果這個行政院長離開的話那麼下一個行政院長就要聘用不同的主委所以他沒有,沒有人流這兩個字的卡到他本來就是必須要"},{"start":15190.519,"end":15207.451,"text":"要跟著行政院長的首長來輪替輪替輪替輪替那個叫輪替啦好不好好呃因為李坤正委員第一次出手我們讓李委員發言好不好好李委員請請請"},{"start":15210.528,"end":15235.721,"text":"謝謝院長其實大家就知道說這個用人為財那這個讓有這個才能的人不論是擔任這個民意代表或是擔任這個行政首長那所以我認為說這個原民會組委其實不應該去區分不論是平地原住民或是這個山地原住民我認為都會很優秀但但是就是看說總統或是院長怎麼去任用那其實我們人這個出身也沒有在管"},{"start":15236.241,"end":15254.693,"text":"現在這個民主社會時代沒有再分這個你的族群、省籍等等這些條件所以我是認為說如果是用這一種人流由山地原住民或是平地原住民而人流來擔任我認為會是走回頭路那就像我們也有客委會"},{"start":15255.333,"end":15255.773,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團如果要發言請隨時舉手好嗎?好"},{"start":15285.579,"end":15310.68,"text":"我想提醒就是說基本上那個主任委員他的任期其實並沒有固定沒有被保障的即便是隨院長同進退但同一個院長可能當中也是會聘任搞不好一位以上的這個原民會主委那我想大家比較care的會不會是一個整個原民會"},{"start":15311.841,"end":15335.064,"text":"主委還有各副主委的整個平衡如果是這樣的話我覺得我們可以去考慮就是說萬一今天這個主委是平原的時候那我倒覺得這個下面這個文字去整個副主委的這個三元平原的平衡各族群的平衡我覺得這個倒是可以考慮但是我覺得要"},{"start":15336.145,"end":15364.19,"text":"我還是認為就是說那個因為主委這樣子的輪流確實這個輪流怎麼輪很奇怪是兩次的三元還是兩次的平原我們可以有一個彈性的輪流嗎或者要很硬性規定說平原完了一定是三元三元完了一定是平原那這也會落入另外一個陷阱比如說那之前一將主委擔任了八年那現在換曾主委"},{"start":15365.45,"end":15383.319,"text":"那這個通過之後下一個一定又是平原那萬一不小心曾竺偉沒有坐很久那我後面會不會又變成平原不好意思我舉這個例子啦大家很熟的朋友曾竺偉臉色很難看了請繼續我等一下會安慰他啦那所以我只是舉這個例子我覺得大家太"},{"start":15384.36,"end":15384.9,"text":"大家都強調用人為財"},{"start":15414.548,"end":15443.11,"text":"三地原住民人才很多,平地原住民的人才也很多,所以這個不是問題,絕對會是,我相信行政院長所任用的,不論是三研,下次改為平研,我們人才都很多,所以這個部分不會影響到用人為材,以上。"},{"start":15444.275,"end":15446.518,"text":"這一個條文我從來不會想去區分不同的族群你是族群裡面的誰"},{"start":15460.197,"end":15477.388,"text":"所以說山原平原一直要刻意去凸顯我認為這幾年反而大家要去打破這個隔閡這個過去在殖民時代留下來的劃分的舊的方式這個思維應當是現在社會要去打破的"},{"start":15478.248,"end":15497.43,"text":"可是怎麼會我們在處理原住民族委員會的組織法我認為那非常重要主委的任命是不是彰顯了時代的新的意義我們不再分你是什麼都是疼惜原住民族都是捍衛原住民族權益的專業的人士"},{"start":15498.231,"end":15522.543,"text":"我覺得這才是現在要做﹖我甚至認為朝野應當更有共識的是﹖如果我們真的有能力﹖應當努力去修憲﹖把《徵求台灣》裡頭對於原住民族應分為山園、平原這個東西我覺得是要去打破的所以那是更高層次的東西所以剛剛提到說﹖它確實會去造成行政權用人的限縮啊"},{"start":15523.427,"end":15549.627,"text":"因為我這個,對啊,它一定會造成我選才的一個條件的限制嘛。對不對,像韓院長,您當院長,您也不會說,我本省外省,我哪本省,我的婦嬰就一定要一個外省。我覺得台灣都在打破這樣子的東西。那講到族群,譬如說回到我在那個內政委員會質詢這個題目的時候,我也就想到說,誒,那課委會呢?"},{"start":15550.427,"end":15571.484,"text":"我的辦公室有客家籍的幕僚有說我們是不是要四海大平安也要分這個四縣的當一輪海陸的再來當第二任大埔的第三任饒平的第四任然後這個燒鞍的第五任這個就是很我們要打破的東西所以我是真的覺得"},{"start":15573.336,"end":15576.318,"text":"我今天可能因為某個事情我也許很短命我上任幾個月我就卸任了"},{"start":15589.801,"end":15618.364,"text":"那下一個就被強迫要去找到另外一個那或者是這個主委非常的優秀哦他是山地的那我新的隔壁我還是要留任他啊對他對於整個政策的永續的推動是很有表現的可是就我被迫要去取捨這個大家都很歐落的主委我覺得不要再走回頭路去區分這個所以真的覺得大家都在看我們立法院的立法是不是能夠越來越彰顯時代的精神啊"},{"start":15618.824,"end":15641.923,"text":"所以真的還是希望能夠相著這個條文維持現行條文是比較好的方式好謝謝吳世耀委員的發言陳委員要求短短的發言請我想大家如果擔心這個公平的問題要輪流那這樣子照理來講我們的修法方向應該每一組來輪流啊每一組都應該來擔任組委啊這樣不是比較公平嗎"},{"start":15643.82,"end":15670.032,"text":"我只是舉一個反向的例子讓大家思考,謝謝。好,了解。好,謝謝。台灣民眾黨沒有保證。那各位委員經過黨團各位委員的踴躍發言,我想我們沒有辦法達到共識。我們第三條就保留送院會處理。我們現在進入第四條。市民委員,你的表情有感動嗎?"},{"start":15671.454,"end":15672.136,"text":"你內心有感動嗎?"},{"start":15683.117,"end":15708.994,"text":"因為我們不要再重蹈覆轍用立法的方式去僭越了其他憲法機關它的核心領域人事權的任命真的是行政權的核心領域的範疇我們要再一次用修法立法的方式去剝奪行政權的人事任命權嗎我們真的是要深思這個事我不想我把它放到最後再講因為我以為大家可以有一個共識"},{"start":15711.025,"end":15715.707,"text":"議長,我要再補充一下,就是說剛才講說會剝奪行政院長的任命權,其實我們要特別提醒"},{"start":15730.842,"end":15759.154,"text":"行政院長如果換人那新的行政院長我們就在條文裡面說那你要因為前面那一任是這個是選他是任命比如說是這個平原那你現在新的行政院上來那我們就希望你依照我們這個修法的條文聘任那個這個3D原住民新的行政院長當然他就依照這個規則去走嘛所以這沒有所謂限制他的這個任命權啊"},{"start":15759.574,"end":15775.408,"text":"那你不要怕說比如說現在認識山民現在認識原民那個平地原住民他人才濟濟啊你不要怕什麼會先說他的命權了不會的啦那這樣我們要發白修吧那這樣我們要規定說什麼任命這個女生做完男生做男生做完女生做嗎"},{"start":15788.325,"end":15790.986,"text":"因為輪流這兩個字在法律上沒有這樣的用語沒有這樣的定義啊"},{"start":15808.453,"end":15836.342,"text":"對阿,怎樣才叫做輪流?我們剛剛舉了幾個例子,比方說這個內閣改組的時候,內閣改組讓這個原民會的主委延任,那這樣會不會被輪流這兩個字綁住?因為他延任嘛,延任的話還是說一定是他下台了,然後下一個就一定要換,就會被輪流,這個定義很不清楚。"},{"start":15839.565,"end":15840.686,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15856.277,"end":15876.91,"text":"第四條原民會委員改五級制請天安委員鄭天才委員請高金委員請發言好謝謝院長大家辛苦了我很快速的把這個第四條五級制的議題跟大家說明一下我認為原民會作為原住民中央行政機關他的組織制度應該要更為嚴謹"},{"start":15878.411,"end":15894.212,"text":"然後要注重專業性還有文化敏感度尤其他要反映各族新生的族群委員可是呢我們看到現行的族群委員制度施行了很多年仍然存在著非常多的問題而人民會一直沒有去處理例如第一個"},{"start":15894.953,"end":15917.356,"text":"的推薦及審查程序沒有法制化。我們可以看到他開放推薦的時間根本就不清楚,這導致我們有非常多基層的族人根本不知道我這個族推薦的是哪一個,或者是他的推薦的機制的存在,因此有非常多少數的人就進行酬庸的工具。"},{"start":15917.876,"end":15944.015,"text":"也因為徵詢各族意見的方式欠缺明確的溝通所以導致了這兩屆我們有非常多的族群委員讓我們部落的族人產生抗議第二件事情就是我們族群委員的薪資他的條件是很這非常的重要根據我們看的預算呢114年度族群委員的人事費高達了2247.6萬"},{"start":15947.597,"end":15961.955,"text":"也就是說一個族群委員他平均的願心是打11.7萬一個人喔我們有16個人喔那他任用的資格只有什麼呢只有具備原住民身份就可以了"},{"start":15962.936,"end":15991.522,"text":"所以我們會看到現在的族群委員他的專業度按照原民會的初步規則他要處理很多事情第一個他要重要議案的先期審查第二個原民會的法規他要先期審查第三個原住民的政策制度計劃他也要做先期的審查等等十項非常對於原住民重要的法案的事務的所以我們認為族群委員他的專業度是非常非常的重要"},{"start":15992.142,"end":16015.831,"text":"也因為常年沒有按照他的專業度來規定他的職權的作為,我們來看一下相對的。對在園民會在場有很多園民會公務人員特考上來的,我們的園民會裡面的專門委員,他們必須經過考試及格,而且還要有十年以上的資歷,他才可以被把著為所謂園民會裡面的專門委員。"},{"start":16018.132,"end":16018.312,"text":"．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":16033.169,"end":16051.896,"text":"公務員、基層人、青年、努力的年輕人也有相對的剝奪感。然後我們再來看一下,原民會我舉兩個處。一個叫做社福處。他要處理什麼?他要處理原住民的就業、法服、文件站還有等等社會福利的工作。他只有16個人喔!"},{"start":16053.377,"end":16073.235,"text":"只有16個人在處理這麼多的事情。第二個,我們所謂的部落的公共建設,我們講的公建處,它要處理部落裡面的建設,還有住宅、輔導、移居部落、原鄉道路養護等等的部落基礎建設。大家都知道,原住民部落700多個部落,它的人只有多少?16個人。"},{"start":16074.938,"end":16102.697,"text":"所以相對我就拿這兩個處事的人力跟族群委員他們人數是一樣多的16個人然後我們來看一下我們的這些處事他要處理這麼多重要的事情幾乎就不堪負荷了族群委員做什麼事情部落裡面的人都知道根本不是原民會裡面說的這些重要的十項的處理規則現在在做的事情都是跑婚喪喜慶宴會"},{"start":16104.978,"end":16131.087,"text":"就是代表我們的這個組委他如果跑不了婚喪喜慶他就幫忙去跑我們覺得這樣子實在是身為一個原住民的立法委員要把族群委員列為無極值其實我們壓力很大但是呢我們也不能夠相對的剝奪了專業的人才以及剝奪了年輕人這麼努力的公務人員的這個努力的剝奪感所以我有"},{"start":16131.747,"end":16153.198,"text":"具體的建議有兩個。第一個,族群委員改為無給職按照總統府原住民族歷史正義跟轉型正義委員會還有客家委員會組織法委員制度才無給職聘任我們從上而下推舉具有民族代表性的專業系的人才讓他可以非常有熱忱"},{"start":16154.699,"end":16176.26,"text":"的鄰居族群的共識,然後聽取部落的心聲,然後把原住民的族人的先生帶到原民會,代表族群委員。第二個,我們將族群委員的這個兩千多萬的人事費回歸到專業的公務人員,然後將現行的族群委員高額的人事費用來補足正式的公務員。"},{"start":16177.401,"end":16198.135,"text":"然後聘任具有原住民身份和專業素養的人才來解決多年來人力不足的問題來提升原住民族專門事務的效能所以待會我跟曾英才委員也有提出一個附帶決議如果大家對第四條沒有意見的話他的附帶決議就是希望每一年從115年起的這些給族群委員的這些經費轉給原民會"},{"start":16204.839,"end":16232.723,"text":"增加他們真正的專業的人力因為現在人民會的人力實在不足以上謝謝謝謝提案委員、高金委員的說明陳委員您要發言嗎鄭天才委員請準備陳委員不發言沒有你們原住民三個委員發言完我也會請曾主委不發言鄭天才委員請問要不要發言不發言我們請曾我本來想說先讓三位原住民委員先講完我請曾主委你要調整次序沒關係鄭天才委員您要發言嗎"},{"start":16235.615,"end":16254.862,"text":"陳委員要等曾主委之後,您可以先發言,還可以等曾主委之後。好,請曾主委表達意見。好,這個跟主席跟各位委員報告。第一個,這個族群委員從有營民會以來,28年來就有,就不是無幾子嘛。第二個,這28年來的推薦,"},{"start":16258.863,"end":16273.87,"text":"也是一樣,也是以前就沒有說一定有什麼就是可以自建也可以這個這個民主議會來推薦最後整理起來來來就是來擔任這個主席委員那第三個這個主席委員"},{"start":16275.992,"end":16293.746,"text":"與公務員的工作不一樣,你說族群委員,他一定是他熟悉他自己族群的一些問題。比如說你剛剛說的,他是比較熟悉這個他們自己族群的問題。那他這個族群呢,他可以作為我們中央政府、地方政府的橋樑。"},{"start":16295.307,"end":16305.974,"text":"這很重要,這跟公務員不一樣。你甚至一個感恩感恩委員,你要找公務員,他願意來原民委,不會,搞不好你還找不到公務員來當這個組織委員,比如更小的組織委員。第二個,這些組織委員,"},{"start":16311.277,"end":16315.101,"text":"一路到牡丹鄉到臺東的達人、金峰是這麼樣的遼闊所以當然要有心水因為原住民的服務不能沒有"},{"start":16330.077,"end":16338.421,"text":"不能免費,因為他光是這樣往緩,對他個人來講當然是我們世界要領薪水,因為他服務的地方非常遼闊,所以當然我們可以檢討我們未來臨險的機制,是不是說我們是不是交給民主議會他們來推薦,或者是說我們是不是有其他的"},{"start":16357.704,"end":16385.105,"text":"臨時的這個機制我們來做檢討來做修正但是我認為要給原住民就是說當族群委員又要讓他沒有領薪水剛剛講的高居委員講說把這個錢用來再去聘公務員這個非常難啊這個公務員的這個整個的控管非常的嚴格而且你不一定找得到適合做部落跟政府的這個中間橋樑的人"},{"start":16386.886,"end":16415.681,"text":"因為公務員跟族群委員不一樣啊公務員的做法我相信主席也很清楚還有我們這些族群委員我們嫌的要嘛他就是當過鄉民代表要嘛他就是當過議員要嘛他就是當過區長至少他熟悉他自己部落的一些義務我們才臨險上來的所以這個部分我想還是要跟各位委員拜託一下謝謝謝謝曾主委接下來陳委員跟鄭田委員哪位先發言"},{"start":16418.279,"end":16446.654,"text":"陳議員、政見長委員請準備。我想先請教韓院長一件事情。您有兩位有幾職的顧問。對不對?是吧?那這是按照立法院組織法有兩位有幾職的顧問。那我想這兩位有幾職的顧問因為要協助韓院長做立院相關的事務。所以呢不管他是什麼政黨的"},{"start":16447.014,"end":16447.174,"text":"．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":16460.903,"end":16485.692,"text":"或是這兩位偶爾幫院長跑什麼行程立委覺得不合理那我們也不會就提案把他給刪了至少我沒有幹過這些事情所以我就是比較一下提一下因為韓院長用人你要用的顧問您去挑您去指定那或許您會接受很多人各界的推薦但是那個就是韓院長的人這是第一點那另外"},{"start":16487.955,"end":16510.947,"text":"另外我要提的是就是說其他像客委會的這些委員他們其實性質不太一樣這是一個諮詢他們是一個諮詢的委員那工作分量也沒有像原住民的委員這樣子那個就是對不起原住民的這個聘用委員一樣那再來就是說"},{"start":16514.889,"end":16539.177,"text":"這個我要特別講一下因為我不知道高金委員他是指說誰跑的婚喪喜慶但是我覺得以這一屆來講待會主委應該要說明一下這一屆的聘用委員他們到底做了什麼事賦予了什麼任務這一段上任之後這段時間他們到底做了什麼是不是每天都在跑婚喪喜慶我覺得你們這個主委要說明清楚不然這個對現在的這些委員們都是一個很大的侮辱"},{"start":16539.717,"end":16566.056,"text":"因為至少我知道裡面有些人他們有些我認識他們確實就是真的很優秀而且很專業那再來就是說好那到底是不是酬庸那在過去喔還有這個推薦人的部分其實推薦一樣嘛政委員你也有推薦啊那只是主委要用誰那只是主委自己要去決定的事情嘛"},{"start":16567.152,"end":16588.945,"text":"因為至少你說推薦人上次念了一堆也有你的名字在裡面真的啦你不要搖頭啦真的有啦要不要拿給你看等一下拿到你前面我幫你不談我可以談一下沒有關係啊那到底是不是酬庸在過去就是說過去"},{"start":16590.017,"end":16591.118,"text":"．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":16607.367,"end":16630.036,"text":"提這些這一屆的族群委員他們實質上已經短短的這個上任時間沒有多久但是真的做了很多事情這個你要替他們講清楚還有他們到底薪資的部分是怎麼領的你也要說明清楚也沒有像立委講的說怎麼到十幾萬這個要講清楚"},{"start":16633.783,"end":16661.197,"text":"陳議員謝謝你我們立法院組織法第二三條規定我們立法院設兩個顧問是完全正確但兩位都是公務員特別跟您報告一下接下來請鄭天宅委員請發言本席提這個案是在今年的四月就提了所以跟這個現在的族群委員沒有關係所以這個部分這個跟院長跟各黨團來做說明這個原住民族委員會"},{"start":16662.908,"end":16687.117,"text":"會有專任的也就是聘用的族群委員不是行政院版不是當年民國85年成立之前的這個組織法行政院版並沒有是原住民的立法委員的提案當初有他的一個非常好的一個政策的目的"},{"start":16688.052,"end":16697.492,"text":"但是這個前面之前的主任委員基本上都非常好我們就以這個陳建聯主任委員的時代"},{"start":16699.744,"end":16728.175,"text":"最起碼都是議員、代表甚至立法委員都具有各族群的代表性當初陳穎委員的父親當了人民會的主任委員的時候的族群委員都具有各族群的代表性都具有專業最主要是這方面可以代表這個族群那我們這個族群委員現在回歸到"},{"start":16729.71,"end":16754.502,"text":"如果改為無籍職的話就是跟客家委員會一樣我們就是說他一樣你說我們到底是不是諮詢的政策各方面就不足了?不會!人民會一樣可以有這個無籍職的族群委員可以徵詢他們的意見何況我們也有很多的"},{"start":16755.892,"end":16775.399,"text":"縣市議員、鄉鎮市長、原住民的鄉長、原住民的議員都可以提供意見所以不會影響到政策的方向的決定所以這個不論是實施這麼多年來因為當初提案的"},{"start":16776.952,"end":16806.013,"text":"所創這個族群委員要專職聘用委員的看到目前這幾年的狀況真的是搖頭了所以我提這個案是今年四月就提的跟現在的這些我從來不提個案所以這個部分是這樣這個陳委員所提的之前林江一主委時代的那一位委員他不是國民黨喔"},{"start":16806.849,"end":16833.841,"text":"是親民黨的喔你講那個紅金服是親民黨的喔不是我推薦的是親民黨推薦了之後親民黨推薦了之後當時的主任委員問我這個適不適合我說他可以代表都會期我從來沒有都會期的當時啦所以我說他可以代表都會期是林江壹主委問我的意見是當初是親民黨推薦的以上"},{"start":16835.705,"end":16860.365,"text":"我現在想聽一下黨團幹部的意見請吳思瑤幹事長請發言然後請國民黨團準備聽了剛剛幾位原民委員的發言都很有收穫那我想我們要討論的是如果委員認為對於現任的這些族群委員的工作狀態或是專業的適任與否有意見"},{"start":16861.578,"end":16862.319,"text":"而不是現在一竿子似乎幾位委員對於現在的"},{"start":16885.279,"end":16907.406,"text":"主席委員感覺不太滿意就要大道一揮砍掉人家應當有的payment而且真的不要再舉克委會的諮詢委員跟總統府的這個這個這個叫做什麼原住民轉型建議委員會的委員因為他們是諮詢的性質是久久來開一次會跟原民會的"},{"start":16908.947,"end":16929.285,"text":"這個臨聘的族群委員他是每天要上班的完全性質是大不相同所以不可同日而遇那講我們對於所有的公務體系裡面的同仁他都有他的任期的保障跟他的待遇"},{"start":16930.226,"end":16930.266,"text":"．國民黨團提議"},{"start":16945.424,"end":16963.261,"text":"主委還在任．主委任命的他突然昨天還有薪水明天事情之日由立法院定之就沒有薪水了我們對於信賴保護的原則這是法律的基本的原則所以立法委員沒有這麼大的權力"},{"start":16964.591,"end":16993.625,"text":"我認為誰好我就給他高一點的薪水我認為誰不好我今天就砍光他的薪水這個任期的信賴保障的原則這個我們都要兼顧而且打開天窗說亮話啦大家都是在政治圈工作這麼久的人今天不管誰執政國民黨執政國民黨任命的原民會主委就可以去聆聘他要的族群委員"},{"start":16994.696,"end":16995.4,"text":"今天民進黨執政民進黨所"},{"start":16999.181,"end":17025.537,"text":"邀請入閣的原民會主委．他就有他的人事任命權去邀請當然還有一定的舉薦跟聆聽的過程可是我們也不會在民進黨是在野的時候就來質疑國民黨的原民會的主委他的族群委員就一定不是任有問題然後要砍光他的薪水我覺得不可以這樣子那回到剛剛我們在講的第三條"},{"start":17027.028,"end":17047.044,"text":"我們都還在爭論說對於人民會的主委的身份要不要去區分山園跟平原我們要的是認為不要區分而且要增進各個16個族之間彼此的理解誰能夠為這個族群做最大的努力他的專業性最好我們就認為他是一個好的主委"},{"start":17047.845,"end":17068.851,"text":"那為什麼有這16個族也許16個族群委員就是要幫助原民會去落實跟每一個族的溝通他需要的工作政策的調整就是要去增進這些的融合的工作所以怎麼會氏族有他不覺得第三條跟第四條有一點邏輯錯誌嗎所以"},{"start":17072.419,"end":17100.88,"text":"講回法律的原則對於公務同仁體系的信賴保護原則立法委員是不應當用修法我今天有幾時明天便無幾職這個我想我們這個未來的行政訴訟吃不完兜著走保障公務同仁的這個權利那退換不嚴很多人民也認為很多立委不適任那我們是不是提案立委就一樣無幾職好了"},{"start":17102.324,"end":17120.386,"text":"是不是這些族群委員也有一定的領聘制度如果委員們覺得對於現在的有不夠不夠適任的地方我剛說了要做的是去精進領聘的制度或是讓他更透明公開或是強化他的資格任用的背景條件應當是這樣做"},{"start":17122.128,"end":17146.239,"text":"而不是現在去把別人從有幾值變無幾值信賴保障原則在哪裡那主委你回答一下你任命的那今天修了這個法這些人突然沒了薪水那他他可以他可以提告這要誰來負這個責任他他提告可以提提告提案的委員嗎"},{"start":17148.086,"end":17148.586,"text":"曾主委,請補充發言,林士明書記長請準備。"},{"start":17164.4,"end":17184.7,"text":"剛剛那個委員講一個委員他就是說他可能是辭掉其他的工作現在來上班也才兩個月那麼簽約的時候就是他的任期我做八個月他就做八個月我做一年他就跟著我做一年這是有政治任命的"},{"start":17186.281,"end":17214.655,"text":"我再一次重複講他們很辛苦他們還要做工程的會堪還要做一些這個活動的活動有時候去主持甚至於很多的這個會議也要協助主持還有處理一些人民的陳情案然後你看看他們那個範圍是那麼樣的遼闊這個真的需要這些族群委員這不是公務人員能做的事情因為他們平常跟教會也好跟部落也好的互動"},{"start":17215.735,"end":17233.524,"text":"是很好的,我們要藉助他們在地方上的實力來增加我們的這個為民服務的量能。而且這個從28年來一直做,為什麼獨獨到現在就一下子把人家變成無極者,這個也沒有道理啊。"},{"start":17234.204,"end":17234.344,"text":"國民黨團書記長林思明委員"},{"start":17262.456,"end":17289.063,"text":"委員長我想這個原住民族就是族群委員會你有幾職我們看到就是說產生了弊端就是淪為這個政黨酬庸的一個工具聘任的人是不是真的有他的專業度我想這個高軍委員在委員會也做出很多的質詢甚至在他的這個臉書也說明了非常多我就不再贅述了其實我想講的就是說"},{"start":17290.163,"end":17319.763,"text":"如果說把這些就呼應剛才高進委員講的你把這些這個2000多萬的這些啊這個薪水你不如去增加更多的工作人員啊更多的員額更專業的人進到我們原民會來服務可能會比去外聘這些所謂的諮詢委員諮詢委員更有效益更能保障原民的權益那我因為我是客家人我再講一下客家了"},{"start":17320.169,"end":17320.19,"text":"案。（"},{"start":17320.799,"end":17349.64,"text":"那客家的委員我也遇到非常多啊他們沒有領錢但是他很有榮譽感欸他到地方那個我是客家的委員會的委員主動會跟大家來了解很有熱忱啊他不在乎薪水他在乎的是這個榮譽感我能夠為我們客家族群來服務所以當初這個設計成為我們天才講的這真的是有問題實行到現在既然有弊端那我們就要改啊"},{"start":17350.521,"end":17368.669,"text":"改成跟其他族群委會一樣啊改成無脊植啊然後把這些錢用到我們真正的這個能夠為原民來服務的人身上了還有那個年年我剛才釋揚那個法制面我也想提一下如果說法修過了"},{"start":17369.449,"end":17394.012,"text":"這些人該怎麽樣子去讓他領相關的不管是補償或者支遣費我們就按照相關的規定去走嘛你不用擔心說這個他們怎麽會失業啊這個白拼任就是這樣子啊那你看說信賴保護員年改你有去兼顧我們這些公務人員他的一個權益嗎你還溯及既往啊"},{"start":17395.311,"end":17416.235,"text":"這個就已經完全違反信賴保護原則了。我們尊重發言委員好不好。所以我想說這個不要去講這個啦。制度既然有問題我們就應該予以修改。謝謝。接下來請蔡議員跟書記長發言的之後我要進行處理。請蔡書記長。我剛剛這樣聽,事實上我感覺有點難過。為什麼跑婚喪喜慶講得這麼不堪?"},{"start":17424.039,"end":17446.105,"text":"我們每一個立委我們都是跑婚喪喜慶啊但是我們跑婚喪神慶我們才能接觸到更多人聽到更多不同的聲音啊為什麼要把跑婚喪喜慶就等於是不好的把它醜化所以我想本身呃人民會他不是獨立機關他是"},{"start":17448.161,"end":17471.234,"text":"行政院長任命,然後這個主委再去找對於他在實施政策他覺得對他有幫助的人那為什麼我們需要原民會的這些委員,大概有幾指,第一個是原住民的轄區很大第二個是原住民不同族群之間的語言不一樣"},{"start":17472.421,"end":17486.033,"text":"包括組委也有他的他自己的族群所以他台灣主他跟其他的語言不一致的時候他需要不同的這樣的一個委員然後給他一些地方聽到的意見"},{"start":17487.635,"end":17502.885,"text":"所以這些委員他很認真去跑婚喪喜慶因為他依據聘用條例他領了這個錢他很認真去跑你以為你身為原民會的委員你去跑婚喪喜慶不會有人跟他陳情嗎?"},{"start":17503.846,"end":17526.688,"text":"一定會有啊,一定會聽到很多我們希望主委再拿一些政策,要再精進,要再替原住民的福利再大力爭取,那些都是在那些跑婚喪喜慶才會有這樣的一些基層的聲音嘛。我們每一個委員,我們都是為基層出心的,我們都是為跑婚喪喜慶,然後我們才跟人民拼命。"},{"start":17527.429,"end":17555.261,"text":"然後聽到這些聲音那為什麼現在要把跑婚喪喜慶替我們主委來分擔他的工作替他去做他的分身在地方廣聽原住民的心聲這件事講得這麼不堪然後要把他們的薪水把他砍成無幾值然後讓他們去跑在地方跑的時候然後就變得說那麼大然後他的成本很大然後他沒辦法跑"},{"start":17556.101,"end":17571.589,"text":"我覺得這樣的一個修法不好啦因為剛主委說這已經二十幾年了嘛我也敢預判啦齁這個如果哪一天國民黨回到執政黨了他會把他修回來啦他一定把他修回來的啦你再講你會被黨紀處分"},{"start":17574.105,"end":17597.778,"text":"所以我是覺得不要每次政黨輪替就去修這種東西這個都帶有羞辱人的一個意味好不好那接下來兩位原住民委員要要求再發言我們再請陳議員跟高靜委員再發言一下以後我們做處理好嗎好請陳議員你舉手請不用客氣請謝謝主席你坐請坐嘛不是因為我想站著起坐比較好"},{"start":17599.26,"end":17604.512,"text":"因為我覺得這件事是這樣啦我們努力在這邊協商啦齁那因為"},{"start":17605.905,"end":17631.26,"text":"如果大家沒有結論最後還是表決處理可能我們表決也還是會輸但我覺得該講該澄清的事情我們還是要把它講清楚我覺得今天從一開始提案到整個協商的過程其實對於這一屆的族群委員這些聘用委員其實有很多的很多的這個侮辱的這個臆測跟形容那我不管過去"},{"start":17632.7,"end":17659.736,"text":"發生什麼事情或者各位委員對他們有什麼意見我覺得都不應該就認定現在這一屆的族群委員就一定是什麼樣子我真的覺得要給他們時間讓大家去檢視而且確實在這很短的時間他們真的很努力做了很多的事情也不是都一直在跑婚喪喜慶再來就是我要特別提的就是說"},{"start":17661.038,"end":17674.999,"text":"講到剛剛韓院長不好意思我講的那兩個顧問沒關係沒關係好那就是那兩個顧問其實是剛好您上任之後剛好遇到這兩位是公務人員以前都不是公務人員"},{"start":17678.268,"end":17686.037,"text":"反正重點就是那是要幫韓院長的人,韓院長自己決定要用誰嗎?我即便再看怎麼不順眼,我也是可以修法的啊,對不對?"},{"start":17697.711,"end":17724.319,"text":"但是我們沒有這樣因為我們理解嘛好所以這個部分那最後我就把握最後發言機會我提醒一下因為鄭委員不好意思我剛剛你可能誤會我講我不是講那個特定什麼人我上次講我上次講那一位你說議員什麼但是因為他穿著您的背心是您的助理所以我就特別講了一下因為你們提的我就提了一下那再來再來再來就是說"},{"start":17725.399,"end":17739.977,"text":"因為這一屆您確實也有推薦雖然是3D原住民我跟你講這個是原民會的紀錄上次那個高金委員那一份我借來參考了一下我也有看到鄭天才委員推薦人也是有"},{"start":17741.876,"end":17760.461,"text":"但是我就講那一份可能不精確啊因為我們那麼多都被點名了我也講說那個有錯誤如果有錯誤你自己去跟原民會講這個是原民會的資料推薦人是您然後再來過去酬庸的話不好意思那大家要這樣講我也是把握最後機會講一下這邊"},{"start":17762.722,"end":17782.054,"text":"以前的族群委員泰雅族,這位啦,他原來的名字你們發音我不是很清楚,但是高精英委員,您的以前主任的老婆嘛,那這樣是不是酬庸啊?這個我們也可以質疑,但是他擔任的時候我們大家也都沒有講什麼啊。"},{"start":17783.154,"end":17811.292,"text":"我們也是都尊重嘛那我覺得還是要這個未來你說這一屆大家簽約就是跟跟主委同進退那我們如果開了這樣子的先例那在這一屆大家因為前面有什麼不滿意就把他們的這個薪水的給付就這樣咖掉了我覺得第一個侮辱人第二個政府沒有誠信原則啊"},{"start":17812.133,"end":17827.352,"text":"當然就是訴訟就會一直不斷的訴訟那到底要怎麼處理我就特別在這邊提出這樣子的一些問題大家好好考慮一下好 謝謝謝謝陳議員接下來我們請高靜雯發言人你要不要站起來"},{"start":17831.414,"end":17842.169,"text":"有禮坐著就可以了我先跟大家報告一下對於第四條的這個修正案我們在委員會已經討論了很久然後在這邊"},{"start":17844.262,"end":17862.786,"text":"韓院長的草野協商之下,我覺得應該講得更高層次的一些例子。那我就不再回應陳穎委員對於這一屆有什麼樣的所謂的仇擁,那是民眾黨的黃國昌委員在委員會裡面提供的資訊,大家有空可以去看委員會裡面的這個諮詢。"},{"start":17865.367,"end":17881.502,"text":"我就高一點我來說103年在修正原民會的組織法的時候我就極度的要求原民會必須要來修正族群委員的聆聘辦法但是一直到現在並沒有"},{"start":17882.162,"end":17910.084,"text":"我也非常遺憾103年的時候我們在草野協商的時候我的建議沒有被接納因為大家都知道草野協商很快速嘛當時我們只讓屏東的文化中心把它列為三級機關那個時候大家的工房都在那一塊事實上我也要求園民會在所謂的族群聆聘不管哪一個政黨都必須要回歸到他的正常的聆聘的規範這是我先講的"},{"start":17910.865,"end":17929.84,"text":"第二點我非常的遺憾也難過我們的族委居然在這裡會講說我們立法委員希望把族群委員每個月11.7萬的這樣子跑婚喪喜慶的這個錢是不是把它來補足於公務人員的不足"},{"start":17931.181,"end":17959.239,"text":"因為在103年的時候我就說原民我們有附帶決議要求喔要求原民會還有要請行政院的主計總處等機關要配合把原民會的員額從195個人要核實增加到280個人就是因為原民會掌管的事務就像一個小內閣一樣他要跑的是全國的我現在在幫原民會的公務人員講話"},{"start":17960.76,"end":17970.002,"text":"第二、三件事情我剛剛提到的不管是社福處、不管是公建處你知道他們的人事費都沒有族群委員的高"},{"start":17971.53,"end":17996.166,"text":"而且他們都是要實質等以上才領不到八萬塊的薪水這不是相對的剝奪感嗎他們的專業度他們是如何幫原民會在做事情大家要來看一下原民會的出物歸程裡面哪裡有我們族群委員要跑婚喪喜慶哪裡有哪裡有寫說他們要幫公建處去會刊"},{"start":17997.387,"end":18001.191,"text":"蔡書記長你說的我們跑婚喪喜慶不要侮辱是沒錯我沒有要侮辱婚喪喜慶我們都跑但是如果在婚喪喜慶碰到陳情案沒有鄉長沒有代表沒有議員沒有立委嗎"},{"start":18012.663,"end":18030.774,"text":"他難道不會跟我們來澄清嗎來澄清嗎所以沒有語言的問題我告訴你語言的族群委員就算是花蓮的阿美族的族群代表臺東跟花蓮都不一樣他不見得彼此認識"},{"start":18032.415,"end":18056.348,"text":"你了解嗎?就算是我泰雅族和平區選出來的族群代表依然的大同鄉的泰雅族不見得認識所以我才會講如果大家都講說我們的族群委員要幫人民會做事我們倒不如讓他們真的熱情的來做事嘛然後就按照他們想要做的事情來做而不是現在的規範的處於規範你知道現在的處於規程要做什麼嗎?"},{"start":18059.89,"end":18073.746,"text":"很多重要議案要掀起審查你知道嗎我們的聘任委員還有分一個叫做專家學者這些是無幾值的他們要給人民會多少的意見然後他們"},{"start":18075.091,"end":18103.75,"text":"聘任的條件要什麼你知道嗎?他們聘任的條件要對原住民教育、學術、語言、文字、音樂、文化、藝術、體育、技藝等方面的研究有相當照義或者是有專門著作或者是有關創作或在文物保存上享有相當的評價這個是無幾值的專家學者、原住民在幫原民會在做的事情而現在的族群委員也是同樣要做這樣的事情可是呢"},{"start":18104.13,"end":18126.863,"text":"我沒有污蔑所謂的喜慶婚喪他也許要幫我們的諸位跑一些東西但是也請他們回歸到他們應該要有的制度上面好不好我再講我沒有因為民進黨執政或國民黨執政我就講這件事情我一直以來身為無黨籍的委員我就希望原民會能夠來在他們的所謂的這個聆聽要點好好的來做現在已經幾年了他們有公開透明嗎"},{"start":18132.526,"end":18148.766,"text":"如果今天有公開透明的話就不會有民眾黨今天在委員會裡面把16個族群委員有14個族群委員都是民進黨你們的人所以才會引起那麼大的風暴嘛才會引起那麼多部落的族人的抗議嘛不是如此嗎?謝謝"},{"start":18150.677,"end":18152.258,"text":"本案已經超過一個月的冷凍期,我們今天協商。"},{"start":18167.324,"end":18191.123,"text":"沒有共識。那麼針對第三條、第四條、第七條,它都是配套的。我們就送院會處理。我們今天協商到此為止。請問一下院長,那送院會處理,那有後續什麼發言啊,什麼東西要講一下?我們照一系規則嘛。不是照一系規則什麼?就通常會有推派代表什麼的,要不要現在來講一下?"},{"start":18196.965,"end":18204.229,"text":"今天我們協商到此為止,非常感謝各黨團幹部也謝謝原住民曾主委跟各位原住民列席的官員,謝謝大家,我們散會。"},{"start":18226.067,"end":18232.295,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18242.919,"end":18243.78,"text":"每個人隨便登記發言"}]}},{"id":"157570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966f0f8f486cf33a3a603b819ff23403639bbcaec0eacdae93aee9170943cc9f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:20:33 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謝謝主席那雖然我們等一下應該會進入主條討論不過我在這邊還是要宣示一下我們的版本跟行政院的版本有一些很本質上的差異那這些差異當然是來自於我們辦公室始終關心的題目第一個最特別的其實就是身心障礙運動"},{"start":23.918,"end":48.969,"text":"過往一般的國人對於身心障礙的運動都侷限在帕拉運動那確實我們台灣在這數十年當中也有非常多相對多的資源是挹注在這個部分的但是如果我們不要只有把身心障礙運動放在所謂競技層面而是所有身心障礙者從0歲到99歲他們都必須要運動的需求而國家在運動部升格之後必須要照顧到他們運動需求"},{"start":50.149,"end":78.316,"text":"因此我們調整院版的帕拉運動文字為身心障礙運動那在過去的會期當中我們其實也積極召開適應體育的座談會有非常多專家學者告訴我們不能只有帕拉運動去想像某一種競技的樣態而是必須照顧到全民的需求因為每一個人在一輩子當中都很有可能成為身心障礙者的候選人這件事情是在非常多座談會上有很多老師再度再度提醒我們的"},{"start":79.096,"end":97.91,"text":"第二、我們在我們的版本當中明文的把運動博物館納入運動部的業務但這件事情並不是從天上掉下來的靈感有非常多體育文史的老師告訴我們臺灣過往雖然有做所謂數位運動文物典藏但是它侷限的層面跟做法其實都"},{"start":98.59,"end":106.936,"text":"非常難對台灣人所知道那他可能只有公部門的預算去處理的這部分的業務但實質上我們如何透過運動文物的保存讓全台灣的人對於運動是自己生活的一部分這件事情可以建立某種認知因此我們明文把運動博物館納入運動部的業務我們不希望跟現行的運動文化記憶保存的方法又再次的重疊"},{"start":123.927,"end":140.795,"text":"在周思齊引退的時候,其實他也提到類似的事情。接下來我們提到全國性運動團體,我們也認為要進一步釐清。目前在講到所有資源或是競賽分配的時候,大家都著重在特定體育團體,但我們認為未來走入全民運動俱樂部的概念,我們更應該把這個運動團體的定義釐清。接下來我們談到一個很重要的事情,"},{"start":146.118,"end":162.245,"text":"目前體育署很重要的業務在於競技運動的部分那我們當然認為競技運動是重要的可是我們更希望運動走向現代化、文明化、形塑全民運動文化這件事情所以我們把競技運動全民化調整為運動發展現代化、形塑全民運動文化這件事情我認為也是相對重要接下來談到體育班的歸屬還有適應體育的分工未來教育部跟運動部要如何分工學齡階段或者是學齡後還有學齡前"},{"start":175.391,"end":185.742,"text":"我認為體育班跟適應體育的問題是在這一次修法的時候我們大家要共同面對可能要花很多時間討論但是卻是一個不得不去談的很重要的議題以上謝謝主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"157567","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966bcd5ffdeb8c92fbdddac5fd2c67d7ae1bbcaec0eacdae93a2aeb4f393fa6d6c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"09:11:11 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﹏﹏"},{"start":51.138,"end":52.278,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外。"},{"start":70.183,"end":88.797,"text":"都必須從長時間的陪助絕對不是一蹴可擊的那麼在這樣的過程當中即使運動員被扶植出來之後幕後有許多重要的團隊包括勤搜包括教練團包括訓練員甚至於醫療飲食都是要完全配套的讓體育署能夠完全的成為一個獨立的體育部對於整體的運動發展"},{"start":98.144,"end":113.625,"text":"當然就佔有非常重要的部分是除了政策擬定之外政策的擬定更需要的是要後面有經費的支持所以這一次能夠透過我們運動部的組織法的提案修正能夠讓"},{"start":115.347,"end":116.809,"text":"（一、繼續併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":132.987,"end":136.408,"text":"我希望也透過這一次的修法全面的來支持釋放他們的潛能在全球新興運動產業發展的初期台灣就能拔得頭籌搶得機先再次回到這一次的十二強世界棒球賽我們奪冠的過程"},{"start":156.195,"end":169.6,"text":"其實棒球過去一直以來是我們的國球我們也花了非常強大的時間跟心力在做培植以及他們的脫胎換骨同樣的本席也希望透過這一次運動部的組織法的修正許多的新興運動正在崛起當中也透過這一次能夠有獨立的機關獨立的預算背後能夠給這些運動員更多的扶植而運動員就像我們看到的"},{"start":184.045,"end":185.205,"text":"我相信這是一個最好的時機。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157562","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157562","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966709197394f96555103b819ff23403639bbcaec0eacdae93a7ec09d647ab4e3bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:11:59 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楊瓊瓔發言 邀請部長請您部長"},{"start":14.089,"end":31.547,"text":"部長,首先我們來討論最近總統也下令各單位必須在一個禮拜內去清查各單位的霸凌事件是否有,那我們外交部目前清查的完整了嗎?"},{"start":33.231,"end":57.27,"text":"有清查而且我事實上在7月的時候我就有就是要求阿爺行文到外館針對有關職場霸凌我們除了保障同仁秘密檢取的這個陳情的這個信箱以外克責還有宣導同步在進行那對於如果有"},{"start":58.171,"end":86.311,"text":"好,那監察院在21號通過我駐聖保羅辦事處這個王組長的這個事情那也正式的糾正了外交部當然成立了霸凌的這個小組他認為是不成立在機關裡頭認為是不成立但是監察院裡頭綜合所有的事項他發覺這個代表出四個人鞭子一個人輕生兩個調回外交部"},{"start":87.905,"end":110.219,"text":"這個問題是的確有問題所以他認為這個監察院認為他的領導同意是有問題的所以在今年7月份通過了彈劾那在這樣的情況下本市要請教部長未來針對人事總署他所頒布的建議我們外交部是不是會如此也就是定定的整個"},{"start":111.019,"end":126.59,"text":"原工的職場霸凌防治與處理規範,同時原工職場霸凌處理的標準作業流程,也就是我們除了預防之外,我們當然不希望發生,但是發生之後他有申訴的"},{"start":130.754,"end":149.472,"text":"在整個的調查當中仍舊可以非常中立而且是不包庇的這樣子查出這個原因你是不是會依照人事總署所提的這個建議呢會就是因為這個會呢我們也希望要如此的做因為我們不希望再有這些事件的發生"},{"start":150.533,"end":171.472,"text":"同時也查出馮處長不管是職務或者是在辦公、採購方面都有一些糾局在這樣的情況之下目前請教你們到現在處置的情況究竟是如何來我們人事處長說明一下最新的處置"},{"start":176.976,"end":189.228,"text":"報告委員因為當初這個整個調查報告是聯通他的司法案件我們是全部都送到那個檢調單位去那對於監察院他所指的部分呢我們就會就虛心的檢討改進以上"},{"start":192.236,"end":218.732,"text":"需要進行檢討改進所以的確是有問題但是我們送的檢調這是依法去行政但是我還是建議部長我們內部的管控要怎麼樣機制去調整我覺得我不希望我們的外交部是漏氣的尤其在外管是很辛苦的那我們要怎麼樣讓他有靠山好的人才讓他能夠盡情發揮有爭議的他也應該要得到一個監督跟一個處置"},{"start":220.894,"end":231.987,"text":"委員所言,我們就是把外管這個彭處長調布,就先讓他離開,那後續的相關的處置"},{"start":235.05,"end":254.843,"text":"好,也將最後處置的方式,你們自己外交部怎麼處置,那也順便資料給本席。好,接下來本席要跟你討論的出國訪問的費用。那出國訪問的費用呢,你增加了大概這個1.6億,那超過了大概六成。所以呢請教,"},{"start":255.763,"end":268.37,"text":"除了我們全球的物價以及通膨的上漲匯率的變動匯差預算的增幅那麼本期要請教也就是說我們在這個總統預計在什麼時候要出訪"},{"start":274.368,"end":286.449,"text":"11月30日、12月6日這是你們所做的安排嗎?那當然我們非常希望太平洋的友邦我們也要謝謝總統辛苦的要如此做那會過境美國嗎?"},{"start":288.902,"end":309.798,"text":"出訪的事宜都已經初步宣布這是出訪的邦交國那其他就是我們由總統府方面因為美國也說會全力的協助我們那以往像蔡英文總統也都有過境啊韓英九總統也都有過境啊阿扁總統也都有過境啊那我們賴一清的總統會不會"},{"start":311.614,"end":336.287,"text":"在這一次的行程當中因為有關相關的訊息會在最快的時間再跟對外說明因為也涉及到一些跟相關的協商因為美國也表示他會全力的協助嘛AIT方面也曾經受訪他說如果有他們會願意來協助嘛對不對一向都如此所以要加油那麼請教因為以往總統上任520"},{"start":337.745,"end":360.697,"text":"一往總統上任委員比如說蔡英文總統她委員上任之後6月她就出訪中南美那麼阿扁總統以及這個馬英九總統歷任的總統他們大概也就在3個月內左右就在8月份他們兩位都在8月份就首度就出訪那鞏固我們的邦交國也為我們台灣來宣傳那我們賴清德總統為什麼會"},{"start":364.873,"end":383.474,"text":"有什麼障礙?或者有什麼考量?或者有什麼特殊的原因嗎?沒有什麼障礙。我覺得最主要是這一次邀請總統出訪的三個國家都是在南太平洋為主。那他們安排這個期間是三個國家都可以接待。"},{"start":384.595,"end":399.668,"text":"其他我想就是我們的朝就是在第一年內就是上任之後辦理出訪我們有這一次很完整所以本期告訴你以往的總統"},{"start":401.149,"end":430.102,"text":"那歷任的總統他們大概在什麼時間就出訪所以外界有一點質疑為什麼拖了半年現在才出訪那到底有什麼特殊的原因我們也希望在這一次的出訪能夠有一個很好的外交成果那麼也提點外交部我們並不是外面這個其他國家的邀請可以我們再走我方也應當隨時的主動在什麼樣的情況之下能夠為我們台灣來加分對不對"},{"start":431.042,"end":445.518,"text":"對,特別南泰這三個國家都來參加我們總統的就職典禮那也就是今年的選舉啦,年初到年尾包括一個國家是最近才選完所以我們就把它安排在這個...那部長你現在講到的這個最近全球都在選舉那所以我們繼續討論"},{"start":448.541,"end":450.642,"text":"國際會議及交流協助各種的這個國際交流活動那這個當中呢你編列了11.8億左右特別有一項也就是推動以及"},{"start":467.893,"end":488.88,"text":"支助各項國際交流的這個活動當中這個項目11億多那另外特別在國際會議以及交流訪兵接待訪兵接待的這個部分你是編列了5.4億左右5.4億當然就是要接待外賓那比這個110現在進行式的增加1億多"},{"start":489.62,"end":517.926,"text":"一億多那等於是增加兩成多的預算那當然全球現在進行全國性的選舉所以各個國家的一個政治動向對於我們外交來講我相信外交部同仁也都非常努力在跟這個全世界的脈動在聯繫也是掌控這個選後的政治的這個意向那所以本期要請教我們多了這個一億多"},{"start":518.886,"end":519.527,"text":"謝謝委員吼"},{"start":538.106,"end":554.225,"text":"因為我發現說其實邀訪是最好的KPI我們現在預算過去太少導致我們的一些外管比如說歐洲有30個管處他們有一些管處邀請不到對象那你就沒有辦法去了解這個管處到底有沒有好好的去經營所以請教"},{"start":555.186,"end":579.899,"text":"所以我就增加預算喔 我是叫歐洲跟美國增加預算我告訴你了嘛 增加1億多嘛對 就是邀訪讓他增加對象哪一個系列哪一個比如說國會議員政府的部會首長當然這是目前你們在做的嘛 但是也就是以往就是現在跟明年度你增加了1億多你一定有你的量能跟你的元素進來本校要請教你的元素跟量能到底是 歐洲獅對卓"},{"start":581.44,"end":609.963,"text":"因為歐洲國家很多就分下去之後有些國家分不到一次那我就發現說如果你你這個管住沒有去經營國會議員或政府首長我們沒有編預算他兩手一攤說你有沒有讓我有預算去邀請我現在用這個做KPI那你看邀訪來的人效果都很好他來過台灣之後對台灣的支持因為他很認識台灣之後不管去參加科學、參觀科學園區或參加我們的這些文化的活動"},{"start":610.643,"end":634.715,"text":"所以我覺得就KPI來講邀訪是最直接然後最重要的一個效果那我們台中市你也擔任過市長你也了解到目前為止我們所有的各項都是第一在盧修燕市長領軍也是大家歷任的市長所打下的一個基礎那不斷的發揚光大尤其歐洲商會目前希望到我們台中來是會館的"},{"start":635.976,"end":664.587,"text":"這總是這個亞洲區的總部的非常的多我們也希望透過這樣的一個交流那所以呢增加1億多我們也了解是以歐洲地區為基準那你也設定了KPI所以換句話說我們有所調整在我們整個外交策劃的一個規劃跟更多的國家能夠去緊密的結合這是我們外交部目前在增加1億多的預算裡頭我們所提出來的"},{"start":665.387,"end":694.611,"text":"需求跟量能跟元素所以我要給一個資料也就是請你因為已經設定了KPI把你預計要增加的量能項目那麼你希望能夠達到怎麼樣的成效請給一份書面資料給我們我們希望一起好好的讓台灣尤其是我們美麗的台中讓兩個自己美好的處能夠更加的跟國際來接軌那你書面資料多久可以給本席確實城市外交很重要書面資料多久可以給本席"},{"start":695.498,"end":697.096,"text":"對手同仁就"},{"start":700.031,"end":702.373,"text":"請詳細一周內把順便資料給本席我們繼續加油看了我們的KPI向上發展謝謝"}]}},{"id":"157629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966d4149738d4e5c54bfde9c36da10785a7100fefa9c0a589fc8401a8fd86e0fba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:00:46 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哇 這個林佳龍林佳龍部長你的class你的class比馬英九還高 比蔡英文還高高了這麼多 你是做什麼偉大的事情啊我所知道你原來是去採點啊怎麼用這麼豪華奢侈的飛機這樣好不好 花台灣人的錢這樣花好不好啊 部長啊派頭這麼大喔"},{"start":266.389,"end":283.424,"text":"這個我來瞭解一下因為這涉及到委員比如說我們去南泰應該是不一樣的情形但是那個因為畸形的那個名稱我要再查一下"},{"start":284.636,"end":288.938,"text":"稍稍謙虛,臺灣很有錢是有錢的,沒有那麼有錢,這樣你自己想我馬英九一個小時15萬,蔡英文一個小時50萬,林佳龍一個小時70萬,你還要做總統嗎?我不希望,不幸連中,這個你派頭太粗了,一個外交部長,而且我所知道你去那裡是裁點,是說我去看嘛,總統要來,"},{"start":314.812,"end":336.149,"text":"因為我去過很多地方包括南派包括加海包括中南美洲那這個涉及到航空公司到底用什麼機型你們的人在拍你馬屁啦我就給你告訴你這個數字而且涉及到人數跟他的航線你人數有啊19個人啊"},{"start":338.973,"end":345.436,"text":"阿這個航線有Diata美國Diata有包機美國的American Airline AA有包機你都可以Automotive可以挑AA可以挑Diata可以挑都有包機的服務阿你就不要你取一個最貴的隨隨跟你安排的"},{"start":358.423,"end":359.624,"text":"報告委員我們辦理包機我們都有請相關的管處去"},{"start":380.285,"end":390.175,"text":"我們負責我們在美國有幾個管處我已經幫你查了路線American Airlines有這個包機為什麼不用American Airlines為什麼不用Delta Airlines都有包機又省很多錢你就用這個最貴的"},{"start":398.703,"end":401.724,"text":"報告委員這不是拍馬屁我們經過住處回報的一些資訊我們有比較這個我們絕（你們挑最貴的他是一個基於安全因素安全阿不然你跟那個包機沒有安全阿"},{"start":414.724,"end":415.905,"text":"部長啊!你要約束一下你的市長啊!這樣子陷你於不義啊!說這個林佳龍企圖心啊!"},{"start":435.759,"end":436.46,"text":"我想管處或我們各司的評估我會來瞭解"},{"start":457.517,"end":476.551,"text":"你去了解來給我一個報告可以嗎?給我們國防委員會一個報告可以嗎?我跟委員講齁其實這趟其實在南泰不是這個樣子那你說講的是拉美的話因為涉及到有一個行程是到這一個海地那當然這個涉及到安全的評估海地我去過海地我跟馬英九去過沒有你講那麼偉大啦"},{"start":479.633,"end":486.916,"text":"委員我再詳細了解。我也同意委員。你多久時候給我一個報告?順便報告。好不好?多久?兩禮拜可以嗎?可以。兩禮拜。因為我這個在幫你。我對你很好。我讓你澄清一下。不然的話你會說多金部長。我知道你家很有錢。多金部長要準備當總統的。其實感覺不好。"},{"start":507.588,"end":511.251,"text":"我再給你強調你要去查為什麼不用American Airlines"},{"start":538.474,"end":554.806,"text":"為什麼不用Data?都有包機服務,為什麼不用?一樣可以啊!如果有更好的選擇,我想外管應該把它列入。阿如果就現有的他們的選項,那我想委員剛剛的關鍵...好啦,你等一下寫報告給我啦!主要我就跟你講啦!因為他們大概想說你浩大喜功,家裡又有錢,我們是要做總統!阿該給阿伯個贊的啦!就這樣啦!拍你馬屁啦!就這樣啦!"},{"start":566.534,"end":571.742,"text":"還有各方面的條件我們這種跟委員都選舉出來的我們很好安頓"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":451,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時）謝謝主席。有請外交部林部長。"],["主席：請林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你好。我請教部長我們跟日本的關係是怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：理念相近，而且很頻繁地經貿、文化交流。"],["賴委員士葆：關係很好啊。過去的長官，你的前任外交部長還說它是我們的大哥哥，關係這麼好，結果他們的人把我們臺灣人當大陸人。有人跟我投訴，日本瑞穗銀行你知道吧？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：是日本很大的銀行，他去存錢，銀行行員就要他寫ID號碼，就是我們的身分證字號或我們的護照號碼，他寫了以後對方就說：「不對啊！你要寫12個digit，你要寫十二位數。」十二位數是什麼意思？你知道什麼意思嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我沒有辦過。"],["賴委員士葆：十二位數是大陸的，大陸的ID才是十二位數，臺灣沒有十二位數。他還是老客戶耶，這個銀行員就跟他講：「你要改，你們是中國臺灣的。」欸！你講臺日關係多好，一個這麼大的日本銀行，結果居然還強迫我們的人要寫12個digit，不寫就不給他辦，這個事情你知道嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我現在才知道。"],["賴委員士葆：現在才知道。可見臺日的關係不怎麼樣，沒有你講得那麼好，這麼大的銀行都把臺灣視為中國的一部分，把臺灣人視為中國人，他這麼一弄，結果這樣子一個……"],["林部長佳龍：委員，這個個案是很普遍還是很特別？"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫很普遍、很特別？"],["林部長佳龍：如果是比較特別的情形，沒有什麼特別的情形……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有什麼特別，就普通的客戶啊。"],["林部長佳龍：就是一般的狀況……"],["賴委員士葆：一般的客戶，而且是老客戶啊。老客戶都弄錯，可見得一直在錯啊。有人可能就算了，就這樣子，問題是這個人說他拿不出中國的護照，拿不出12個digit，你要不要幫忙去處理瑞穗銀行的事啊？"],["林部長佳龍：我個人是很樂意，如果涉及到臺日關係，那我們當然要更……"],["賴委員士葆：當然涉及臺日關係，我才找你啊，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：委員的資料是不是也給我參考？"],["賴委員士葆：我把資料給你。","好，你不是去過聖文森嗎？聖露西亞你去過嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊。你搭什麼飛機？"],["林部長佳龍：那個機型我們再查一下。"],["賴委員士葆：來，我已經給你了，你用A320neo包機，只有載19個人，裡面有沙發，有客廳，有夠豪華，聽說還可以有洗澡的地方，一個小時就要美金兩萬二。馬英九用ATR-72，載70個人，一個小時15萬元臺幣。蔡英文是搭龐巴迪的環球6000，載14個人，一個小時50萬元臺幣。你每一個小時就差不多70萬，林佳龍部長，你的class比馬英九還高，比蔡英文還高，高了這麼多，你是做什麼偉大的事情啊？我所知道你原來是去踩點，怎麼用這麼豪華奢侈的飛機？這樣好嗎？臺灣人的錢這樣花，好不好啊？部長。派頭這麼大喔？"],["林部長佳龍：這個我來瞭解一下，因為這涉及到我們去……"],["賴委員士葆：你已經搭過了，你經搭完了，你看……"],["林部長佳龍：委員，比如說我們去南太，跟你說的應該是不一樣的情形，機型的名稱我要再查一下。"],["賴委員士葆：要省一點啦，臺灣有錢是有錢，也沒有那麼有錢。你想想，馬英九搭的飛機一個小時15萬，蔡英文一個小時50萬，林佳龍一個小時70萬，哇！你下次要做總統喔？我不希望不幸言中。你派頭太大了，一個外交部長，而且我所知道，你去那裡是踩點、是去看看，下次總統要來，搭這麼好的飛機，而且……"],["林部長佳龍：因為我去過很多地方，包括南太，包括加海，包括中南美洲，這個涉及到航空公司到底用什麼機型……"],["賴委員士葆：你們的人要拍你馬屁啦！我就告訴你這個數字……"],["林部長佳龍：這個人數跟航線……"],["賴委員士葆：人數有啊，19個人。這個航線有美國的Delta的包機，美國的American Airline的包機，你都可以挑，有AA可以挑，有Delta可以挑，都有包機的服務，你就不要，你取一個最貴的，誰給你安排的？你想一下。"],["林部長佳龍：要看去哪一區啦，如果是南太，是亞太司……"],["賴委員士葆：亞太司拍你馬屁。"],["林部長佳龍：去加勒比海是拉美司。"],["賴委員士葆：拉美司拍你馬屁，變成這個樣子，司長要不要報告一下？司長，你是怎麼安排的？"],["張副司長自信：報告委員，我們辦理包機，都有請相關的館處去……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼館處？"],["張副司長自信：我們在美國有幾個館處……"],["賴委員士葆：我已經幫你查了路線，American Airline有包機，為什麼不用American Airline？為什麼不用Delta Airline？都有包機，省很多錢，你就要用這個最貴的，拍馬屁也拍成這個樣子。"],["張副司長自信：這不是拍馬屁。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是拍馬屁。"],["張副司長自信：我們經過駐處回報的一些資訊，我們也有比較……"],["賴委員士葆：你們挑最貴的。"],["張副司長自信：這個是最貴的包機，但是是基於安全因素……"],["賴委員士葆：American Airline的包機沒有安全嗎？美國會揍你喔，因為你說American Airline不安全。奇怪，Delta不安全喔？只有你們這個才安全？"],["張副司長自信：不是，我們是基於駐處回報的一些資訊去做選擇，然後選擇比較安全的，基於部長出……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，約束一下你的司長，這樣子陷你於不義，說林佳龍企圖心昭然若揭，以後想要做總統。你看總統的規格，你看，馬英九的包機15萬，蔡英文50萬，林佳龍70萬，還沒有做總統就每小時70萬，做總統就會100萬，會害死你。"],["林部長佳龍：我想，館處或者是我們各司的評估，我們會來瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：你去瞭解，給我一個報告，可以嗎？給我們國防委員會一個報告。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員講，其實在南太不是這個樣子，你講的是拉美的話，因為有一個行程是到海地，那當然涉及到安全的評估，依我們的專業，我也不能夠……"],["賴委員士葆：海地我也去過，我跟馬英九去過，沒有你講得那麼偉大啦！你說成這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我再詳細瞭解，我也同意委員……"],["賴委員士葆：你多久的時問給我一個書面報告？好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我儘快。"],["賴委員士葆：兩個禮拜可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["賴委員士葆：可以？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["賴委員士葆：因為我在幫你，我對你那麼好，我幫你澄清一下，不然的話，你會被說是多金部長，我知道你家很有錢，被說是多金部長，要準備當總統，給人的感覺不好，太早。"],["林部長佳龍：他們有一些任務上的需要，我再……"],["賴委員士葆：這個還有任務喔？有機密喔？裡面放間諜喔？不要這樣啦，你這個是踩點啦，沒什麼任務，任務是踩點啦。"],["林部長佳龍：因為有一些真的是，包括像加勒比海有一些跳島之間的行程安排，如果沒有用整合的話，可能預算會更高，那到底是基於什麼樣的考量，我會來瞭解，再跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：我再給你強調，你要去查為什麼不用American Airline？為什麼不用Delta？都有包機服務，為什麼不用？一樣可以啊！"],["林部長佳龍：如果有更好的選擇，我想外館應該把它列入，如果就他們現有的選項，那我想委員剛剛的關切，我們來瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，你等一下寫報告給我，主要我就跟你講，因為他們大概想說你好大喜功，家裡又有錢，又想要當總統。"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦。"],["賴委員士葆：就拍你馬屁啦，就是這樣啦。"],["林部長佳龍：其實是考慮各種機場跑道，還有各方面的條件。我們跟委員一樣，都是選舉出來的，我們很好……"],["賴委員士葆：我們差很多，你很有錢，我沒有錢，你這麼說。"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，我們很好安頓的。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。林部長請回。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157628","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157628","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966ecc1d0c03df98626c25d3d95b2a46981100fefa9c0a589fc854671cd304e1f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"09:56:50 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各位美國總統當選人川普即將在明年1月上任那過去川普他在競選期間對台灣的這個晶片呢說過一些言論讓我們現在也覺得十分的擔憂包括可能對台灣的晶片加稅或是說晶片法案2.0的走向那其中呢如果還加上說限制對中這個晶片出口這個限制呢恐怕也會影響到揮打進而影響到台積電"},{"start":36.358,"end":47.603,"text":"是不是也會驅使中國專注在中低階的晶片而影響台灣晶片的出口?甚至說再來會不會要求我們7奈米的這個先進製程要前進美國?這些種種的擔憂以及限制之下主管您認為我們應該要如何來保持我國晶片在國際上的優勢?另外主管您在採訪中有提到說未來不僅是半導體也會吹動這個主權式AI的發展"},{"start":59.127,"end":84.488,"text":"也會加強與川普政府合作那本席這邊要請教的是說主委您預計怎麼合作合作領域及合作的強度呢好謝謝委員這個議題真的是非常重要那半導體製造的部分呢我們一定在半導體先進製程的研發一定會跟流台灣所以最先進的製程一定是在台灣研究發展進到量產以後我們才會討論"},{"start":87.091,"end":106.091,"text":"在友好國家包括美國、日本、德國等等才會去討論說是不是要到國外去設廠那這個事情對雙方都是有利的因為台灣的先進製造技術的研發台灣的效率是最高的"},{"start":106.832,"end":114.697,"text":"一到其他的國家不見得很容易可以成功我們台灣一直有這個優勢然後如何繼續保持這樣的優勢其實本席要強調的是說川普未來上任的這個之後的這個位置數其實讓大家都非常的憂心那國科會這邊是我們高階科技的技術的帶領者同時這個基礎的這個科研也是很重要的支持者所以本席希望說針對這個整個國事局勢的這個變化我們相關的單位也要有不同的方案來因應"},{"start":135.011,"end":136.351,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":163.058,"end":187.837,"text":"在有職場霸凌的這樣的事情發生我們如何協助申訴以及對當事人的協助那這個部分我相信主委你也是十分的認同那國科會在11月22號才公布新的職場霸凌防治申訴及處理的這個作業要點在過去我們可能都是用人事總署的這個處理程序在做那現在有新的辦法那我有看了一下國科會這個作業要點其中第五項針對霸凌防治申訴評議會"},{"start":189.458,"end":210.755,"text":"國科會這邊是規定了評議委員人數評議委員的來源評議委員的任期以及評議委員的性別比例但是你們沒有訂定外部委員的比例這個部分我會希望說你們這個一定要再檢討我們有看到其他部會在這個霸凌評議小組的這個組成基本上他們都會有規定就是說外部委員這個比例主要是擔憂內部人員他們會有一些壓力"},{"start":213.977,"end":229.78,"text":"所以會希望說有一個外部委員這個比例來參與這個評議那所以這個部分我會要求說主管你們回去要研議就是增加外部委員這個比例要提高至少有二分之一這個部分是不是你們回去好好的討論謝謝委員的建議我目前是三分之一啦"},{"start":230.12,"end":245.434,"text":"但是我認為提高到二、審查114是比較好而且剛才有委員提到其實最近有收到訊息說你們的同仁有要依循這個新的要點來做霸凌申訴可見內部是真的是有問題的所以這個希望說國會這邊可以好好的處理謝謝"},{"start":249.477,"end":263.585,"text":"那接下來呢也是要請教關於精準運課這個問題那主委您過去你自己本身是棒球國手那這次的十二強賽我們有很好的成績相信您自己也覺得非常的開心也很關心那台灣隊的勝利其實"},{"start":265.066,"end":265.827,"text":"在10月份的時候金準運科團隊有去法國"},{"start":293.405,"end":317.12,"text":"當時副團長是說國家科學會會強調是前瞻的技術及產品真正應用在運動員身上未來包括希望國訓中心及運科中心都應該接著來參與跟國家科學會的精準運科團隊有進一步的合作一起為台灣的運動來努力今天剛好也是司法法制委員會跟教文聯席在主條審查運動部的組織法"},{"start":320.014,"end":327.843,"text":"本期這邊就想要知道說我們未來國科會的這個精準運科要如何跟運動部舉運科中心來合作來互動"},{"start":329.22,"end":350.454,"text":"謝謝委員 這個的確是很好的一個議題國科會過去這幾年來努力在支持精準運動科學的研究但是未來我還會再加強不是只有科學研究還會進到科技是希望能夠跟國家運科中心還有國訓中心未來的這個運動部能夠緊密的結合在一起"},{"start":351.494,"end":355.796,"text":"按照委員剛剛講的方向我們會努力前進其實我有一個感受就是說其實我們國科會這邊的精準運科你們做你們自己本身的這些研究相關的這些研究的時候我們跟國訓中心跟運科中心怎麼樣來互動而不是說你們說我們在做那國訓中心也要來參與運科中心也要來參與是說大家怎麼一起來做"},{"start":377.367,"end":396.18,"text":"所以我一直強調說之間的互動你們在該怎麼樣去互相合作是,合作就是靠著我們在三年前通過了行政院的一個科技政策就是運動科技所以透過行政院這個運動科技我們在編列科技預算的時候會把這個跨部會會把它結合在一起"},{"start":398.001,"end":416.379,"text":"主委您講到了我所要提出的就是跨部會又不是大家是平行單位各做各的因為其實我非常的在意這個所謂的運科知識訓練跟這個應該要來普及化全民化那國科會這邊也應該要思考說未來的走向持續經濟因為運科不是只有運動員的運科它是全民的運科但我們該如何把這樣的訓練知識訓練的這些相關的來做一個普及"},{"start":422.705,"end":427.849,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委及所屬單位預算案第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":443.001,"end":468.111,"text":"好,那因為剛剛裴宇提到的這個問題其實我本來想說我今天準備的主題不是在這邊但是我還是要呼應一下我們做這些運科的這些相關的這個研究的時候我們其實要考慮到的層面其實很多那尤其剛剛裴宇提到的這樣的方式其實對運動員反而是一種傷害是所以我們如果既然有這樣的情勢發生我也希望說主委你們這個一定要很嚴肅的去面對這樣的問題去解決這樣的問題"},{"start":469.992,"end":484.855,"text":"是,我們會調查,而且將來我們還會再宣告讓所有的執行這些計畫的教授們要了解現在這種保護運動員的機制一定要搭配著他們計畫一定要提出來"},{"start":485.356,"end":487.778,"text":"關於研究計畫的部分根據國科會的統計資料顯示從2022年開始申請國科會專題計畫的申請件數是逐年的下降2023比2022已經少了1562件佔整體總比的6%"},{"start":504.614,"end":506.615,"text":"二、審查2024年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委二、審查2023年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":523.864,"end":547.651,"text":"報告委員有兩個因素第一個因素是因為我們現在因為人口老化我們提計畫的教授人數其實是在減少當中第二個因素是我們現在核定多年期的計畫比較多所以一個計畫是可以執行比較多年所以件數會減少但是沒有影響到教授因為我們的預算增加所以每個計畫的金額其實都一直在提高"},{"start":548.471,"end":564.08,"text":"您的意思是說因為是長期的計劃所以短期計劃是減少的可是因為減少的件數真的是非常非常的多我也希望說主委你們這邊應該要對這個部分有一個因應的措施是我們計劃通過率並沒有降低喔沒有降低但是申請的件數少很多阿"},{"start":564.81,"end":565.93,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":267,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（9時56分）謝謝主席，請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委上臺。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委早安。主委，美國總統當選人川普即將在明年1月上任，過去川普在競選期間對臺灣的晶片說過一些言論，讓我們現在覺得十分的擔憂，包括可能對臺灣的晶片加稅，或是晶片法案2.0的走向，其中如果還加上限制對中晶片出口，恐怕也會影響到輝達，進而影響到台積電，是不是也會驅使中國專注在中低階的晶片，而影響臺灣晶片的出口？甚至再來會不會要求我們7奈米的先進製程要前進美國？這些種種的擔憂以及限制之下，主委，您認為我們應該要如何來保持我國晶片在國際上的優勢？另外，主委您在採訪中有提到，未來不僅是半導體，也會推動主權AI的發展，也會加強與川普政府合作，本席這邊要請教的是，主委，您預計怎麼合作？合作領域以及合作的強度呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。這個議題真的是非常重要，半導體製造的部分，半導體先進製程的研發一定會根留臺灣，所以最先進的製程一定是在臺灣研究發展，進到量產以後，我們才會討論在友好國家，包含美國、日本、德國等等，才會去討論是不是要到國外去設廠，這個事情對雙方都是有利的，因為先進製程製造技術的研發，臺灣的效率是最高的，移到其他國家不見得很容易可以成功。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們臺灣一直有這個優勢，如何繼續保持這樣的優勢？其實本席要強調的就是川普未來上任之後的未知數讓大家都非常憂心。國科會這邊是我們高階科技技術的帶領者，同時基礎的科研也是很重要的支持者，所以本席希望針對這整個國勢、局勢的變化，我們相關的單位也要有不同的方案來因應。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：針對這整個變化，我們必須要抓緊所有的脈動，能夠有最快的方式來因應。主委，你應該……"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["陳委員秀寳：對這個部分你應該也是一樣很關注的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，非常關注。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來我要請教，關於國科會針對防治以及杜絕職場霸凌的問題，近日發生的憾事，大家都覺得非常難過，也都非常關心，我們要思考的是未來我們如何不會再有職場霸凌這樣的事情發生，我們如何協助申訴以及對當事人的協助；這個部分，我相信主委你也是十分的認同。國科會在11月22號才公布新的職場霸凌防治申訴及處理作業要點，在過去我們可能都是用人事總處的處理程序在做，現在有新的辦法，我也看了國科會的作業要點，其中第五項針對霸凌防治申訴評議會，國科會有規定評議委員的人數、評議委員的來源、評議委員的任期，以及評議委員的性別比例，但是你們沒有訂定外部委員比例，這個部分我希望你們一定要再檢討。我們看到其他部會有關霸凌評議小組的組成，基本上都有規定外部委員比例，主要是擔憂內部人員會有一些壓力，希望有外部委員的比例來參與評議，所以針對這個部分，我要求主委你們回去要研議，將外部委員的比例提高至少二分之一，這個部分是不是你們回去好好討論？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員的建議，我們目前是三分之一，但我認為提高到二分之一比較好。"],["陳委員秀寳：希望可以提高，而且剛才也有委員提到，最近有收到訊息說你們的同仁要依循新的要點來進行霸凌申訴，可見內部是真的有問題……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們會處理。"],["陳委員秀寳：希望國科會這邊可以好好處理。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來要請教有關精準運科的問題。主委您過去本身也是棒球國手，這次十二強賽我們有很好的成績，相信你也覺得非常開心，也很關心。臺灣隊的勝利，其實不只是球員，幕後團隊也是非常重要，包括情蒐，包括訓練、防護以及運動心理師的付出，整個團隊一起努力，才有這樣的好成績。針對訓練部分，過去本席也常常質詢關於精準運科的部分，希望精準運科的成果可以提供給運動員更有效率的訓練，以及更有效率的用具。10月份精準運科團隊有去法國，當時副團長表示國科會會強調把前瞻技術及產品真正運用在運動員身上，未來包括國訓中心、運科中心都應該會接著參與，跟國科會的精準運科團隊有進一步的合作，一起為臺灣的運動來努力。今天剛好司法及法制委員會和教文委員會聯席，要逐條審查運動部組織法，在此本席想要知道，未來國科會的精準運科要如何跟運動部的運科中心合作、互動？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，這的確是很好的一個議題，國科會過去這幾年來，努力在支持精準運動科學的研究，未來我們還會再加強，不是只有科學研究，還會進到科技，希望能跟國家運科中心、國訓中心，以及未來的運動部緊密結合在一起，按照委員剛剛講的方向，我們會努力前進。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實我有一個感受，就是國科會的精準運科本身在做相關研究時，應該思考如何跟國訓中心、運科中心互動，而不是說你們有在做，而國訓中心要來參與，運科中心也要來參與，我覺得應該是大家一起來做，所以我一直強調是彼此之間的互動，請問你們會如何互相合作？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，合作就是靠著行政院三年前通過的一個科技政策，就是運動科技，透過行政院的運動科技，我們在編列科技預算的時候，會把跨部會結合在一起。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，您講到了我所要提出的重點，就是跨部會，而不是大家是平行單位，各做各的，其實我非常在意所謂的運科知識、訓練應該要普及化、全民化，國科會應該思考未來的走向持續精進，因為運科不是只有運動員的運科，它也是全民的運科，但我們應該如何把這樣的訓練、知識等相關資訊普及化，這樣才能提升全民運動風氣，國科會針對這個部分應該來思考。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，同意。"],["陳委員秀寳：怎麼跨部會合作？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，文化部也要進來，沒有錯，就是文化部、運動部，教育部、國科會，還有經濟部的產業發展，會一起來推動。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，因為剛剛培瑜委員提到這個問題，其實我今天準備的主題並不在這邊，但我還是要呼應一下，就是你們在做這些運科相關研究的時候，要考慮到的層面很多，尤其剛剛培瑜委員提到的這樣的方式，其實對運動員反而是一種傷害……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：既然有這樣的情事發生，希望主委你們真的一定要很嚴肅面對，去解決這樣的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們會調查，而且將來我們還會再宣告，讓所有執行這些計畫的教授們了解，保護運動員的機制一定要搭配他們的計畫一起提出來。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝主委。","接下來我要請教有關於研究計畫的部分。根據國科會統計資料顯示，從2022年開始，國科會專題計畫申請件數是逐年下降，2023比2022少了1,562件，占整體總比的6%；2024又比2023少了2,833件，減少了11.5%，在科技預算逐年增加的情況下，申請國科會專題計畫的數量卻越來越少，這很不合理，主委有沒有發現這樣的現象？你們有沒有分析是什麼原因造成的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，有兩個因素，第一個因素，現在人口老化，提計畫的教授人數其實是在減少當中。第二個因素，現在我們核定多年期的計畫比較多，一個計畫可以執行比較多年，所以件數會減少，但這沒有影響到教授，因為我們的預算增加，所以每個計畫的金額其實也都一直在提高。"],["陳委員秀寳：您的意思是說，因為長期計畫，所以短期計畫減少，可是減少的件數真的是非常多，面對這樣的問題，主委應該要有因應措施。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們計畫通過率並沒有降低、沒有降低。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是申請件數少很多啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為人口減少，還有我剛剛講的，多年期計畫增加，所以他不會申請……"],["陳委員秀寳：好，因為主席已經站起來了，針對這個部分，請給我一份報告，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席（萬委員美玲）：主委會後再給陳秀寳委員更詳細的報告，謝謝。謝謝陳秀寳委員。","接下來請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺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加強 加強 加強 加強的第一個第二個 我們OECD裡面有一個損棄聯盟這個是國安會要我們參加"},{"start":251.48,"end":275.83,"text":"新的元素是不是?國安會要叫你們明年去參加是明年要去參加嗎?以往沒有,是新的東西是不是?我們就是要去討論,增加六成的原因是什麼?要讓國人知道你們的辛苦嗎?第三個是什麼呢?因為我們審計的工作要入役推展,所以我要派人去學習"},{"start":277.899,"end":297.83,"text":"日益推展那以往都沒有日益推展以往都沒有派人去學習嗎所以你講的第三點並不是新的嘛是原本就有的啊對但是因為有聯繫上一些國外的專家或者國外的政府單位的人那所以我們還是會派人去講所以我們差不多 審計長"},{"start":298.911,"end":326.521,"text":"因為我們在這裡回答都有錄音錄影所以我們是在討論在疫情前你的出國預算是增加了六成的原因是什麼我們在這裡來答詢主要的目的是要讓你能夠去說明但是依照你剛剛所說的三項裡頭只有第二項是新的其他都是一樣的這個本分工作那你回答一個說要加強"},{"start":327.821,"end":352.075,"text":"現在的機票也貴了現在的機票國外的機票也貴了現在的機票很貴貴到六成因為多種因素匯總起來的增加你這樣子好了你把你增加在疫情前你增加的六成你們預計要怎麼做你順利資料給本席因為在這裡不能隨便答"},{"start":353.035,"end":374.912,"text":"您現在所說的三項裡頭只有一項是新的其他的都是您的本業工作本來就已經有在做所以我們也希望錢要花在刀口上必要的我們全力支持必要的不能胡亂讓我們的納稅錢有所爭議所以我希望您把您增加的內項目給本席多久時間給本席"},{"start":378.054,"end":393.729,"text":"多久時間給本席?一個禮拜給本席最後一個議題行政院跟我們的主計長我們每一年超增稅收請問已經幾年都超增?"},{"start":397.816,"end":412.337,"text":"因為每一年在立法院在立法院都說你們要去做整體性的一個檢討某一個政府變成預算跟最後實際上差距很大今年大概會超增多少主計長"},{"start":413.607,"end":416.772,"text":"三千八百億左右目前我們大概預估是如此但是每一年每一年都會再超增"},{"start":430.589,"end":456.741,"text":"連續三年都超增是,從110年到現在都是有超增啦所以我們114年度的時候我們也請稅率有增加這個部分就是說它達到那個我們原來的預定、預估的部分請它再加強這方面你們也發覺到這個問題嘛每一年累計將近10年到超增那這個問題出在哪裡?是你以後的不準還是你們的超減部署不準"},{"start":457.601,"end":483.344,"text":"這個都不是一個政府應當有的每一年都在調整所以你也警惕到了也請他們要再重新去審視所以114年有調整了所以114年調整所以行政院在這邊我非常的支持我們羅敏才委員所說的這一切都來自人民的納稅錢3800億在今年度一個人發一萬是最公平的"},{"start":484.42,"end":490.351,"text":"最公平的2300萬人還有剩下很多所以這個是最公平的"},{"start":491.559,"end":517.365,"text":"所以你贊同吧,行政院報告委員,你這些支出還是必須要透過預算的一個程序啦當然啦,行政院支持啦優先還債啦,優先還債你現在終於講了要優先還債可是人民苦所以行政院你的看法呢?最不支持將我們超收的一個人發一萬現金,促進經濟、消費目前我們的方向是優先還債"},{"start":518.593,"end":538.824,"text":"優先還債要不要考慮發現金促進經濟消費要不要要不要行政院現在的時機點沒有這個考慮沒有這個考慮拿回這個功課好好去討論好不好我們希望能夠發現金刺激消費好不好好贊成謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":981,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時51分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。請行政院主計處、審計部一併上來，因為時間的關係。"],["主席：請陳主計長、陳審計長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：行政院請一併上來共同討論。"],["主席：請行政院李國興副秘書長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。首先針對於審計部，審計部114年度的預算當中，中央政府審計的工作項下，我們針對國外旅費的部分來做討論。您所編列的預算是496萬6,000元，113年增加了72萬7,000，增幅是17.15%。我們又看到審計部在105年到114年針對出國所編列的預算跟執行的成效，105年到109年連續5年大概都維持在308萬4,000元，就是這個水平。110年度稍微減一點點，是306萬1,000元。111年跟112年因為COVID-19的關係，所以你執行減到134萬跟175萬左右。但是在114年當中，你是增加將近到500萬。在這樣的情況之下，如果和疫情前相比，你編列的預算是成長6成，依照行政院所屬各級機關因公派員出國案件編審的要點，第二點的規範有一句是：本院各機關以及基金因公派員出國都必須要依照本院所訂的年度預算籌編原則以及編制概算應行注意事項有關規定。所以為通盤檢討的審慎，編制年度派員出國的計畫跟編列國外的旅費。我首先請問審計長，比COVID-19之前的預算成長6成，那應該要撙節原則控管整個預算，讓我們的預算能夠達到有效能，所以請教你有關增加的這個部分是什麼呢？你的基本加入的元素是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員關心這個問題。第一個，現在我們有派駐人在國外，因為針對很多問題我們統統要派人去查，這是第一個。第二個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，慢慢講沒關係，你說你會成長比COVID-19之前達6成？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對、對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你的新政策，是不是？新政策以往都沒有在看？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，有在看。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼預算會差那麼多呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為疫情期間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴你的是疫情之前，你是達6成。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是疫情期間，我們都沒有出去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，剛剛花了兩分鐘跟你講你的背景，所以請針對本席提問的問題。你剛剛說派駐在外地的，你們統統都要去看，所以會增加預算是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們會去看，我們會去抽查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是抽查？還是統統都要去看？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：抽查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為這個工作是原本你每一年都例行在做，除了COVID-19期間停止之外。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，所以我們要去看。第二個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以並不是新增的嘛，這是本來的預算……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：加強、加強。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加強？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是，這是第一個。第二個，我們OECD裡面有一個審計聯盟，這個是國安會要我們參加。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：新的元素是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：新的沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國安會要叫你們明年去參加。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為能夠在OECD不容易……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，是明年要去參加，以往沒有，是新的東西對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。第三個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們就是要討論增加六成的原因是什麼，要讓國人知道你們的辛苦啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝、謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第三個是什麼呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們審計的工作要日益推展，所以我要派人去學習。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：日益推展，那以往都沒有日益推展，以往都沒有派人去學習嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有、有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你講的第三點並不是新的嘛，是原本就有的啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，但是因為聯繫上會有一些國外的專家或者國外政府單位的人，所以我們還是會派人去查，所以我們差不多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：審計長，我們在這裡回答都有錄音、錄影。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們是在討論疫情前你的出國預算增加六成的原因是什麼，我們在這裡答詢主要的目的是要讓你能夠說明，但是依照你剛剛所說的三項裡頭，只有第二項是新的，其他一樣都是你們本份的工作，你剛才回答一個說要加強……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在的機票也貴。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在國外的機票也貴。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在的機票很貴，會貴到六成？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為多種因素匯總起來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣子好了，你把在疫情前所增加的六成，你們預計要怎麼做，你以書面資料給本席。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為在這裡不能隨便答，你現在所說的三項裡頭只有一項是新的，其他的都是你的本業工作，本來就已經有在做，所以我們也希望錢要花在刀口上，必要的我們全力支持。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是必要的，不能胡亂讓我們的納稅錢有所爭議，所以我希望你把增加的項目給本席。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們再送給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間給本席？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：原則上一個禮拜。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個禮拜給本席。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題請教主計長，請問我們超徵稅收已經幾年了？因為每一年在立法院都說你們要去做整體性的檢討，不能政府編列預算跟最後實際上差距很大，今年大概會超徵多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分是屬於財政部的，但是初步我是聽財政部說大概三千多億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大概3,800億左右，目前我們大概預估是如此，但是每一年都會再超徵，連續3年都超徵。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，從110年到現在都是有超徵，114年度我們歲入有增加，就是說它要達到我們原來的預估，請他們再加強這方面，所以在114年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們也發覺到這個問題嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：每一年累計，將近10年都超徵，那這個問題出在哪裡？是你們預計的不準？還是你們的超前部署不準？這都不是一個政府應當有的，每一年都在超徵！所以你也警惕到了，也請他們要再重新去審視。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，要請他調整，所以114年有調整了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以114年調整，行政院在這邊，我非常支持羅明才委員所說，這一切都來自人民的納稅錢，3,800億在今年度一個人發1萬是最公平的，2,300萬人還有剩下很多，所以這個是最公平的，你贊同吧，行政院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，你這些支出還是必須要透過預算的一個程序。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然啊！這要行政院支持。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上是希望優先來還債，優先還債。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在終於講了，要優先還債，可是人民苦哈哈，所以行政院的看法呢？支不支持將我們超收的，一個人發1萬現金，促進經濟消費。"],["李副秘書長國興：目前我們的方向是優先還債。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：優先還債，要不要考慮發現金，促進經濟消費？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要不要？要不要，行政院？"],["主席：要啦！回去想一下。"],["李副秘書長國興：現在的時機點沒有這個考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有這個考慮，拿回這個功課好好去討論，好不好？"],["李副秘書長國興：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望能夠發現金，刺激消費，好不好？"],["主席：好，贊成，謝謝。下一個請賴惠員賴召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務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霸凌而遭到這個親身的事件那這也引起就是說各部門呢各部會其實都開始有非常多的這個霸凌的事件開始向我們來投訴所以呢"},{"start":47.788,"end":64.974,"text":"因為部長你也當過立法委員所以我相信你對這些事情會比較敏感那我也希望就是說我今天我會拿出三件目前投訴到我這邊來那經過檢視那可能真的是有霸凌的這個狀況的事件那來跟你澄清那希望這三個事件呢我們可以承諾說回去詳加的調查部長可以嗎"},{"start":72.537,"end":84.485,"text":"首先第一個事件其實它是有被立案的在2022年的時候9月到2023年有一位外交替代役他有陳情到我們國和會的帛琉技術團"},{"start":88.827,"end":96.594,"text":"但是最後的調查結果卻說呢這個就是大事化小,小事化無可是我要告訴這個因為當時您還不是國和會的董事長但現在您是了那在這2022年的時候檢舉人就有說"},{"start":104.74,"end":127.82,"text":"這個帛琉技術團的技師讓義男去接觸有毒的臭肚魚那雖然當時國和會說哎呀這個是經過助團的技師同意讓他去體驗但我想問部長的是說我們的技術團安排義男去體驗觸摸有毒的魚這件事情是不是不太合理就簡單回復就好了"},{"start":134.068,"end":152.143,"text":"這個基於他業務上的需要還是說基於是什麼樣的考慮沒有業務需要啊他就是說讓他體驗一下那個技師說呢要我要他跟他朋友就兩個藝男嘛給我用臭度一次一下然後呢這個跟他的組織業務完全不相關啊那"},{"start":153.604,"end":166.828,"text":"福勤技術團的三位藝男裡面就有兩位在拜訪水產養殖的時候被刺傷那他們就很擔心說帛琉的醫療資源不比台灣在台灣可以治癒風險的這些東西啊可是在藝男這邊來說在帛琉可能就比較危險"},{"start":170.249,"end":173.213,"text":"所以他的工作本來就沒有包含體驗臭度於這件事情雖然我們外交部當時的回函給他說並不是蓄意刺傷的"},{"start":186.211,"end":203.971,"text":"為了要保護安全已經告訴這個國和會說請他們調整水產養殖中心的做法不要再安排體驗臭肚魚的特性這個是當時回復之後這給這個相關的回復那所以代表說他不是基於業務啊"},{"start":204.952,"end":208.593,"text":"他後面也講說他要調整不符合嘛對那可是112年12月29日這個國和會的回函他是避重就輕的他只說未來不再讓大家去體驗但他沒有認為說這樣子有霸凌的行為跟情況或許是那時候大家對霸凌的定義還沒有那麼清楚但是現在狀況不一樣了"},{"start":230.242,"end":249.14,"text":"檢舉人說在國和會技術團在沒有證據的情況之下指控義男在技術團裡面隨意變膩忽略農場上犬隻甚多卻惡意做出在社群媒體上集體霸凌公審的情形當時外交部的國和司回覆說"},{"start":250.121,"end":277.388,"text":"經查國和會跟助柏流技術團臉書過去一年的內容並沒有發現特定人員的負面批評或是貼文不是啊因為他是發在他個人的公開臉書上面嘛我這邊全部都有截圖喔來大家可以看一下這個我因為涉及到個資我到時候會交一份給我們部長齁那但是呢比方說這裡他寫剛剛提水桶在沖洗宿舍門的牆壁"},{"start":277.808,"end":304.845,"text":"因為尿騷味隨窗型冷氣抽進宿舍裡昨天某一男在被移送至市區前兩小時我看到他在宿舍附近鬼鬼祟祟而且這幾天都在下雨突然有尿味是誰去尿的也不用多說還有我很不道德我叫了所有人一起去聞那尿味證明不是我鼻子壞掉還躲去農場找工人哭訴哭什麼哭是誰要自己幹這爛事你的心態跟行為有多惡劣大家都知道了"},{"start":305.525,"end":320.711,"text":"這很明確的就是說我們的義男只是經過附近他並沒有實質的證據但是技術團的團長他就在網路上面直接的指稱是我們的替代義男做的事還邀請了他其他的這些同事一起去霸凌人家"},{"start":321.411,"end":342.323,"text":"那這樣的事情結果112年的回覆卻說呢這個沒有公開網路霸凌因為沒有查到你沒有查到但我有查到啊所以呢本來這件事情也就不了了之了但是當事人就看不下去的他們同梯那經過這個勞動部霸凌事件的時候希望本案能夠重啟調查那請問部長我們有沒有機會來做這件事情重啟調查"},{"start":349.571,"end":352.993,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":368.321,"end":390.589,"text":"（檢查了國和會網站啊（他們沒有檢查那個技術團的人的臉書啊（他當然就草草回覆（那時候因為大家不是這麼重視霸凌的事件（所以那個替代一男就這樣被壓過去（可是他越想越心有不甘啊（他覺得當時怎麼可以國和會（給他這樣子輕率的回覆（現在大家都很重視職場霸凌事件的時候（是一個能夠重啟調查為一個很重要的時機哦（"},{"start":393.31,"end":417.498,"text":"二、本部也有霸凌的問題。（針對歐洲司某一個長官（我不具體提名稱（因為歐洲司的部門的員工都非常害怕（有非常多的投訴（我整理幾個問題（第一,在內部經常利益良善的大聲溝通（第二,送接機帶路稍有不順就會咆哮同仁（被譽為歐洲司的咆哮地"},{"start":422.82,"end":448.141,"text":"3、在晚間11、2點的時候還在傳訊息交辦任務4、瘋狂開會公文拖延批閱導致同仁全部都要加班等候在外管當外長的時候以咆哮同仁出名而且這件事情是有名到就是其他司的公務同仁都知道所以來向我們陳情的很多人"},{"start":448.761,"end":477.79,"text":"所以外交部是否能夠展開調查並於一週內提供報告我剛剛有問過同仁這個有展開調查有展開調查就很難怪因為那部長這件我要拜託你一下就是說你們開始展開調查之後可能會對於就相關的公務人員造成更大壓力就像是那時候謝怡榮嘛他在被調查的時候他不就把同仁找過來然後說我不遵循你們在對外面講什麼職場霸凌的事情我不允許你們做得到嗎"},{"start":478.45,"end":497.813,"text":"然後大家就很可憐的還說做得到那你們現在調查可能也碰到這樣的情況了具體如何我們私下談因為我不希望這些公務人員被暴露在外面但是呢你們現在既然已經在調查那我理解了為什麼會發生這樣子的情形就是呢突然之間本來想要為自己發聲的人全部都退縮了"},{"start":498.514,"end":519.62,"text":"所以為什麼我要顧忍其名的原因其實是這樣那既然你們知道我在說哪一個案子那希望你可以要求對方不要要求我們公務人員說好像他就不能再提這件事情不然他們擔心被報復被懲處最後那個主席再借我一點時間因為還有一個案子喔那這個是外交部洛杉磯外管組長對僱員性騷擾案件的後續"},{"start":522.521,"end":543.429,"text":"先前就有新聞叫做洛杉磯辦事處的林姓組長對僱員和女性的性騷案因為這個和女的中文並不好所以洛杉磯辦事處他們就說這是語言溝通的落差然後沒有惡意只是溝通的誤解就將性騷案去援過去讓當事人去主動撤告"},{"start":543.789,"end":543.969,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":558.766,"end":562.549,"text":"最近也收到關於這個案件重啟調查的陳情指出當時的負責督導人事的林副處長在案發之後為了包庇加害人順利退休堅決不召開性評會並且引誘受害者天價賠償提告其他無辜的同事來塑造受害者有妄想症的假象"},{"start":579.76,"end":597.368,"text":"還多次迫害受害人撤回申訴否則要將受害者辭退命令全體職員不得為受害人作證而且要求大家要一起抹黑這個受害者讓家境清寒而且出生越南華裔的受害者是求助無門的"},{"start":598.928,"end":625.389,"text":"這位林副處長在2022年10月高升檀香山處長而家駭人也在2022年7月成功退休部長我知道這件事情不是在您的任內但是今天既然因為這個霸凌事件勞動部的霸凌事件使得很多過去可能他們就想說算了那我就自己忍吧那他們現在不想忍了他們希望能夠重新找回他們的正義跟公道所以這個案子我也想要請問"},{"start":626.149,"end":636.535,"text":"既然這個被害者他們有進一步的來說出新的施政是否也能夠重啟調查因為卓榮漢院長上禮拜已經說過了要求各部會檢視要求各部會檢視是否有公務人員被霸凌的問題而且要在7天之內就要有調查報告像我上禮拜送的這個馬來西亞的這個駐台處辦事處的這個問題那你們給我回覆了"},{"start":655.566,"end":662.749,"text":"但是我自己覺得還是有點避重就輕我已很擔心又會發生謝宜蓉這樣子的事情為什麼因為你們調查報告裡面很清楚的寫到說那一名長官就是平常是你們寫的方式是說因為他的要求比較高所以呢講話會很容易大聲這一點會請他再多注意可是問題是我覺得大家在公事公辦的時候你用這種吼的"},{"start":681.857,"end":682.117,"text":"所以說﹖"},{"start":710.96,"end":728.506,"text":"這個部分我們也呼籲外交部的同仁要勇於發聲因為像教育部有海科館的霸凌事件他們已經研議修正教育部員工職場霸凌防治與處理要點那從本來兩個月得釋需要延長兩次縮短為一個月"},{"start":730.347,"end":753.755,"text":"那我剛剛去看我們外交部的性騷擾防治申訴調查要點目前規定是申訴事件自接會日期的兩個月結案必要時得延長一個月那但是對於性侵或職場霸凌的急迫性跟時效性其實在世界各地來說呢我們很難一直去關注這些案件是不是我們也可以比照這個教育部去把時限來延長"},{"start":755.094,"end":755.494,"text":"請部長簡短回答因為我有時間的關係"},{"start":782.197,"end":798.055,"text":"有關您提供那個案子因為我們這邊還沒有接到請提供資料我們會展開調查以上三案嘛對不對總共我剛剛提的第一案那第二案我在處理中第二案在處理中"},{"start":799.276,"end":813.888,"text":"第三案是希望重啟調查的部分尤其他還有新市政就是說林姓的副處長現在接下來要去檀香山就任了那他是當時去包庇這個霸凌者的其中一人那這個部分是不是能夠重啟調查應該回來了我們有調整人士最近檀香山的"},{"start":821.254,"end":821.554,"text":"請委員先把資料給我們我們會提供"},{"start":842.228,"end":868.854,"text":"最近的這些事情我想也更喚起大家對於不管是先前是有關於性騷擾或侵害的但現在是霸凌的問題那事實上在今年7月我也有收到委員相關的反應那我們確實就是也有不斷的就是開會包括說暢通保密深處管道有效的苛責還有加強宣導那最近我們也針對這個部分我們也再次的發函尤其是外管這個部分這些"},{"start":871.114,"end":872.795,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":896.652,"end":912.696,"text":"但是呢他把那個調查期限你看教育部他的調查期限本來是兩個月然後可以延長兩次他現在縮短成一個月那我們現在還是兩個月嘛所以我們是不是可以結案日期縮短成一個月讓這個事情能夠比較快的出現這個結案那個跟委員報告我們就是一個月內完成"},{"start":918.837,"end":919.158,"text":"徐巧芯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時44分）謝謝主席。有請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。先向你說聲謝謝，本席生日，你還送花。但我們今天要討論……"],["林部長佳龍：再次說聲生日快樂。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。我們今天要討論的幾件事情，都是和外交部內部相關的。部長，因為您前一陣子出訪，但本席相信你還是很關心臺灣的議題，就是有關勞動部有公務員因為霸凌而輕生的事件，這也引發各部會開始有非常多霸凌事件向我們投訴，因為部長也當過立法委員，所以本席相信你對這些事情會比較敏感。本席今天會拿出三件投訴案，經過檢視可能真的有霸凌狀況的事件向你陳情，希望這三個事件，部長可以承諾回去詳加調查。部長，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：首先是第一個事件，其實它有被立案，2022年9月到2023年，有一位外交替代役向國合會帛琉技術團陳情，但是最後的調查結果卻是大事化小、小事化無，當時您還不是國合會的董事長，但現在您是。檢舉人說了，2022年的時候，帛琉技術團的技師讓役男去接觸有毒的臭肚魚，雖然當時國合會說這是經過駐團的技師同意，讓他去體驗，但本席想問部長的是，我們的技術團安排役男去體驗觸摸有毒的魚，這件事情是不是不太合理？簡單回復就好了。"],["林部長佳龍：這是基於他業務上的需要，還是基於什麼樣的考慮？"],["徐委員巧芯：不是業務需要，就是讓他體驗一下。那個技師要他和他的朋友讓臭肚魚刺一下，因為有兩個役男，這和他的組織業務完全不相關。技術團的三位役男，就有兩位在拜訪水產養殖的時候被刺傷，他們很擔心，因為帛琉的醫療資源不比臺灣，在臺灣可以治癒，可是對役男來說，在帛琉可能就比較危險，而且他的工作本來就沒有包含體驗臭肚魚這件事情。","雖然外交部當時回函並不是蓄意刺傷，而且為了安全已經告訴國合會，請他們調整水產養殖中心的做法，不要再安排體驗臭肚魚的特性，這是當時的相關回復。這也代表他不是基於業務去做這件事。本席的意思是說，當時……"],["林部長佳龍：對，後面也說要調整。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，不符合嘛！可是112年12月29日國合會的回函避重就輕，它只說未來不再讓大家去體驗，並不認為這樣有霸凌的行為和情況，或許是那時候大家對霸凌的定義還沒有那麼清楚，但是現在狀況不一樣了。再來，那個檢舉人說，國合會技術團在沒有證據的情況之下，指控役男在技術團裡面隨意便溺，卻忽略農場的犬隻甚多，惡意做出在社群媒體集體霸凌、公審的事情。當時外交部國合司回復：經查國合會和駐帛琉技術團臉書過去一年的內容，並沒有發現特定人員的負面批評或是貼文。","因為他是發在個人的臉書上，本席這邊都有截圖，大家可以看一下，因為涉及個資，本席到時候會交一份給部長。比方這裡寫到：「剛剛提水桶在沖洗宿舍門的牆壁，因為尿騷味隨窗型冷氣抽進宿舍裡。昨天某役男在被移送至市區前兩小時，我看到他在宿舍附近鬼鬼祟祟，而且這幾天都在下雨，突然有尿味，是誰去尿的也不用多說。」還有，「我很不道德，我叫了所有人一起去聞那尿味，證明不是我鼻子壞掉。還躲去農場找工人哭訴，哭什麼哭！是誰幹這爛事，你的心態和行為有多惡劣，大家都知道了。」","這很明確，我們的役男只是經過附近，他並沒有實質的證據，但是技術團團長就在網路上直接指稱是替代役男做的，還邀請其他同事一起霸凌。發生這樣的事情，結果112年的回復卻說沒有公開網路霸凌，因為沒有查到。你們沒有查到，但本席有查到啊！本來這件事情不了了之，但是當事人，也就是他們的同梯看不下去，經過勞動部霸凌事件之後，希望本案能夠重啟調查。請問部長，有沒有機會做這件事情？就是重啟調查。"],["林部長佳龍：如果程序上可以的話。但是因為已經有相當的時間，現在人事物等相關情況……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有啊！當時是誰做這份報告？他當時是怎麼處理的？現在本席手上有具體的資料，為什麼當時……"],["林部長佳龍：如果有新事證，我們當然可以檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！有新事證。因為他們當時只檢查國合會的網站，沒有檢查技術團成員的臉書，草草回復。那時候大家不是這麼重視霸凌事件，所以替代役男的事就這樣被壓下，可是他越想越是心有不甘，當時國合會怎麼可以給他這樣輕率的回復？現在大家都很重視職場霸凌事件，這是一個能夠重啟調查的重要時機。","第二個，本部也有霸凌的問題，就是歐洲司某一個長官，本席不具體提名稱，因為歐洲司的部門員工都非常害怕，有非常多投訴案，本席整理了幾個問題。第一，在內部經常立意良善的大聲溝通。第二，送接機帶路稍有不順就會咆哮同仁，被譽為歐洲司的「咆哮帝」。第三，晚間11、12點的時候還在傳訊息交辦任務。第四，瘋狂開會，但公文拖延批閱，導致同仁全部都要加班等候。在外館當外長的時候，以咆哮同仁出名，而且這件事情有名到其他司的同仁都知道，所以很多人來向我們陳情。外交部是否能夠展開調查，並於一週內提供報告？"],["林部長佳龍：我剛剛有問過同仁，這個案子有展開調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：有展開調查？難怪！部長，本席要拜託你一下，你們展開調查之後，可能會對相關的公務人員造成更大的壓力，就像謝宜容被調查的時候，他不是就把同仁找過來說：我不准許你們對外面說什麼職場的事情，我不允許，你們做的到嗎？然後大家就很可憐的說做的到，你們現在在調查，可能也會碰到這樣的情況。具體的狀況如何，我們私下談，因為本席不希望這些公務人員被暴露。","既然現在你們已經在調查，本席就理解為什麼會發生這樣的情形，就是突然之間，本來想要為自己發聲的人，全部都退縮了，這就是為什麼本席要姑隱其名的原因，就是因為這樣。既然你們知道本席在說哪一個案子，希望你可以要求對方，不要要求我們的公務人員不能再提這件事情，不然他們擔心被報復、被懲處。最後，主席再借本席一點時間，因為還有一個案子。","這是外交部洛杉磯外館組長對雇員性騷擾案件的後續，先前就有這個新聞。駐洛杉磯辦事處的林姓組長對雇員何女的性騷案，因為何女的中文並不好，所以洛杉磯辦事處就說這是語言溝通的落差，沒有惡意，只是溝通上的誤解，就將性騷案圓過去，並且讓當事人主動撤告，因為如果不撤的話，這個案件會一直存在。當時#MeToo的風波暫時平息之後，這一位林姓組長調回臺灣順利退休，外交部也沒有進一步調查。","我們最近也收到關於這個案件重啟調查的陳情，指出當時負責督導人事的林副處長，在案發之後為了包庇加害人順利退休，堅決不召開性評會，並且引誘受害者要求天價賠償，提告其他無辜的同事，塑造受害者有妄想症的假象。還多次迫害受害人撤回申訴，否則要將受害者辭退，命令全體職員不得為受害人作證，而且要求大家要一起抹黑這個受害者，讓家境清寒而且出身越南華裔的受害者求助無門。","這一位林副處長在2022年10月高升檀香山處長，而加害人也在2022年7月成功退休。部長，本席知道這件事情不是在您的任內發生，但是因為勞動部的霸凌事件，過去很多受害者原本想說算了，就自己忍吧！但他們現在不想忍了，他們希望能夠重新找回正義和公道。所以針對這個案子，本席也想要請問，既然被害者進一步說出新的事證，是否也能夠重啟調查？因為卓榮泰院長上禮拜已經說過了，要求各部會檢視是否有公務人員被霸凌的問題，而且7天之內就要提出調查報告。","像本席上禮拜送的馬來西亞駐臺辦事處這個問題，你們給本席回復了，但本席覺得還是有點避重就輕，而且本席也很擔心又發生謝宜容這樣的事情。為什麼？因為你們的調查報告裡面很清楚的寫到，那一名長官，你們寫的方式是說，因為他的要求比較高，所以說話很容易大聲，這一點會請他多注意。可是問題是，本席覺得大家在公事公辦的時候，你用怒吼的方式，其實就是某種程度的霸凌，但是你們的調查報告最後並沒有霸凌這兩個字。","針對這個案件的處理，你們絕對要謹慎，不要讓我們的上下屬關係長期扭曲，最後人家受不了了，萬一用最激烈的方式結束生命，我們才回頭來看這件事，那就太讓人遺憾了。不好意思，剛剛說錯，是阿拉伯，不是馬來西亞。","針對這個部分我們也呼籲，外交部的同仁要勇於發聲，像教育部發生海科館的霸凌事件，所以他們已經研議修正教育部員工職場霸凌防治與處理要點，從本來的兩個月（得視需要延長兩次）縮短為一個月。本席剛剛去看外交部的性騷擾防治申訴調查要點，目前的規定是申訴事件自接獲日期的兩個月內結案，必要時得延長一個月，但是因為性侵或職場霸凌的處理有急迫性和時效性，就世界各地的例子來說，我們很難一直去關注這些案件，所以我們是不是也可以比照教育部把時限延長？您懂本席的意思嗎？本席說的比較快，因為時間不太夠。","總之就是教育部已經延長了，包含修正職場霸凌的作業要點，但是外交部還沒有跟上，所以是不是能夠跟上教育部，把這個時限延長？讓受到霸凌的人有比較多的時間思考怎麼處理這件事、怎麼申訴這件事。以上兩個問題是不是可以請部長簡短回答？因為時間的關係。"],["林部長佳龍：有關您提供的案子，因為我們這邊沒有接到，請提供資料，我們會展開調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。以上三案嘛！對不對？本席剛才總共提了三案。"],["林部長佳龍：第1案……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，第1案，OK。"],["林部長佳龍：第2案我們已經在處理中。"],["徐委員巧芯：第2案在處理中。第3案是希望重啟調查，尤其是他還有新事證，林姓副處長接下來要去檀香山就任，他是當時包庇霸凌者的其中一人，這個部分是不是能夠重啟調查？"],["林部長佳龍：應該回來啦！我們有調整人事，最近檀香山的……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！他的職位對本席來說一點都不重要，本席是說這個事件，他當時到底有沒有協助加害者，做出幫助加害者霸凌同仁的事情？這個部分是不是可以重啟調查？"],["林部長佳龍：是不是請委員先把資料給我們？"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有問題，我們會提供。"],["林部長佳龍：因為最近的這些事情，我想也喚起大家的意識，先前是有關性騷擾或侵害，現在是霸凌的問題。事實上在今年7月，我也有收到委員的相關反映，我們確實也有不斷開會，包括暢通保密申訴管道、有效的課責，還有加強宣導，最近我們也針對這個部分再次發函，尤其是對駐外館處的首長。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。最後請你回答本席，霸凌期限延長是不是能夠比照教育部？"],["林部長佳龍：請同仁了解，看程序上如何處理。"],["黃處長麗玲：現在行政院的規定是1加1，就是在一個月內調查完成，有必要的時候再延長一個月，這是行政院最新的指示，現在就是這樣做。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。但是你看教育部的調查期限本來是二個月，可以延長兩次，現在縮短成一個月，現在還是兩個月嘛？所以我們是不是可以把結案日期縮短成一個月，讓這個事情能夠比較快結案？"],["黃處長麗玲：跟委員報告，我們就是一個月內完成。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。好。那你們的網站上面的結案日期部分必須要先處理一下。"],["黃處長麗玲：我們已經修正完了。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["黃處長麗玲：好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員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天又怎麼樣"},{"start":485.866,"end":506.798,"text":"審了半天你跟我說我這筆錢要去推廣勞工政策結果最後花的時候拿去辦演唱會如果我們國家的制度對於這種胡搞瞎搞最後的結論是一切合法謝謝指教我必須要誠懇的跟審計長報告這件事情人民不會接受"},{"start":509.522,"end":537.54,"text":"主要查到沒有依照預算規定或是違反相關法令我們會做檢略的動作會做檢略錢是不是會追回來我們會檢略完以後會依照整個檢調查核的結果來追討希望這次審計部再繳出一張成績單讓臺灣社會看看我們國家公務部門裡面還是有人在負責把關的"},{"start":538.922,"end":564.667,"text":"可以嗎?可以好最後一個問題來請教一下主計長是淨法補償的追加預算什麼時候要送來?這個部分因為我們必須要等到那個明年他是在9月要發放那我們會在之前在下一個會期所以這個會期不會處理?是不會到下個會期才會處理就對了不會是114年度的追加預算OK好謝謝是謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":937,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時42分）謝謝主席，麻煩請主計長和審計長。"],["主席：請主計長、審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，最近這段時間在審預算，也發生了很多的事情，我們回去看最基礎的教科書，告訴我們財政是國家庶政之母，我們建立了預算的制度、會計的制度、決算的制度，最後到審計，就是希望看好人民的荷包，錢不要亂花。延續著上一次質詢的主題，我最近陷入了迷惘，我陷入了迷惘是從預算、到會計、到決算、到最後的審計，我們有做到這件事嗎？我們到底要怎麼做才可以防止政府機關隨便亂花人民的錢、胡搞瞎搞，整個制度有沒有辦法追究責任？我上次跟主計長報告，如果在我們現行的制度之下一切合法，對不起啊！我很難接受。為什麼這樣講？我上次講的是原民會的主委花145萬出個人成果專刊，結果主計總處說預算經費的使用要符合計畫內容，一開始預算書根本沒寫這個東西啊，沒寫又怎麼樣？我愛花就花，我就是要這樣花。結果我去調資料，才知道從其他的項目隨便撥來給他個人出寫真集。對於這件事情，審計部的專案審計做了沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：做了。"],["黃委員國昌：結果什麼時候會出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：今天會送給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：今天送給我嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["黃委員國昌：除了這件事情以外，另外，我之所以請審計長，我可以老實跟審計長講啦，過去這一、兩年，審計部是少有的政府機關在民間社會得到肯定，我今年在處理監察院預算的時候，你們到時候看我預算提案就知道了，我對監察院是大砍，我唯一支持的只有審計部，因為你們有在做你們的工作。但我必須要跟審計長講的事情是，可能你們在做這些工作的時候再認真，但還是有你們沒有辦法處理的問題，因為監督政府機關預算的執行、審核財務收支、考核財務效能，全部都是你們審計部的責任嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來看一下。一個分署長的辦公室可以裝潢成這個樣子，花145萬啊，花145萬啊！審計部知不知道這是什麼項下支出的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是在就安基金的一般行政裡面，我們正在做整個了解。"],["黃委員國昌：審計部有在了解嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，也出公函給它啦！"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們原則上1個月裡面把這個事情弄清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：1個月？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是。"],["黃委員國昌：等不了那麼久啦，兩個禮拜好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們儘量……"],["黃委員國昌：加油啦，加油！錢這樣花喔？錢可以這樣花喔？一個分署長搞成這個樣子啊，我們現在在財務責任上完全不控管是不是？更離譜的是，我可能要拜託審計長納入你們審計的項目之一，我找了半天，這到底是什麼標案？結果標案的名稱寫得很漂亮，叫做「新莊本部空間美化整修工程」，一般的人看了「新莊本部空間美化整修工程」會覺得這個是在美化整個勞動分署的辦公空間，光看這個標案根本不知道原來在美化的是分署長的辦公室。再請審計長看一下右手邊，這個是最有利標，最有利標要評選委員會，評選委員會的名單5個人，我每一個人的資歷全部看完了，現在在職的工作都是在北分署，要不然在秘書室，要不然在訓練科，要不然在諮詢服務科。如果機關首長裝潢自己的辦公室用最有利標，搞來評選委員會全部的評選委員5個都是我自己的屬下，那你乾脆不要設評選委員會嘛，分署長愛挑誰就挑誰啊，但政府採購法有規定，不過政府採購法規定的又如何？可以這樣幹嗎？審計長！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：政府採購法有政府採購法的規定，我們會了解是不是符合政府採購法。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這個一併列入審計的項目當中。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：已經列進去了。"],["黃委員國昌：最後一個，這個更奇怪，我今天去跟勞動部要的說明，今天才回給我，它承認兩件事。第一個，本來的預算根本沒有編這個項目，那奇怪了，許銘春是花什麼錢去開演唱會？結果找了半天，是從就業安定基金來。那問題是什麼？就業安定基金這裡面的名目是什麼？名目是媒體宣導的費用，對於媒體宣導的費用，大家都會想說是在宣導什麼？是在宣導有關於跟就業安定有關係的宣導片，不管是對雇主還是對勞工的宣導片，結果這宣導片可以包裝成拿來辦演唱會。審計長，你會不會覺得很離譜？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們查到，我們初步的了解和委員了解的一樣，我們也正在函詢勞動部。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望審計部在做審計的時候，一定要給全體的公務機關一個清楚的訊息，預算在立法院審議通過以後，不准掛羊頭賣狗肉，這就是典型的掛羊頭賣狗肉，因為我把這個標案最後的驗收報告調來看，最後的驗收報告講的是什麼？他拍了幾支片子，那拍了幾支片子符合媒體宣導，名目上是這樣，實際上是在高雄的衛武營辦演唱會。所以我希望審計長，這一次可以說是引發全國人民的怒火，也引導大家重新的再去思考，我們的預算制度、我們的決算制度、我們的審計，到底有沒有辦法杜絕這樣子的狀況？如果沒有辦法杜絕這樣子的狀況，我不知道我們立法委員這個會期在審預算到底在審什麼東西？審了半天又怎麼樣？審了半天，你跟我說這筆錢要去推廣勞工政策，結果最後花的時候拿去辦演唱會。如果我們國家的制度對於這種胡搞瞎搞最後的結論是一切合法、謝謝指教，我必須要誠懇的跟審計長報告，這件事情人民不會接受。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：只要查到沒有依照預算規定，或者違反相關法令，我們會做減列的動作。"],["黃委員國昌：會做減列，錢是不是會追回來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會減列完以後，會依照整個檢調查核的結果來追討。"],["黃委員國昌：希望這次審計部再繳出一張成績單，讓臺灣社會看看，我們國家公務部門裡面還是有人在負責把關的，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。","最後一個問題請教主計長，禁伐補償的追加預算什麼時候要送來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們必須要等到明年，它是在9月要發放，那我們會在之前就是在下一個會期……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個會期不會處理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，不會。"],["黃委員國昌：到下個會期才會處理就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為是114年度的追加預算。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員明才代）：現在已經12點了，會議繼續進行至詢答完畢。","接著請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966afba0b3c1c6b8656a85017ab97aa926f9bb85de07fde91d3aaf7795eb2f6346c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:39:22 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關懷向有一個加強雙邊及多邊合作的對外的捐助2億3900多萬元本席在現在有幾個問題想要請教部長第一個就是請問台灣現在對中美洲開發銀行總認股的金額是多少還有實際已經繳付的股款還有持股的比例是多少呢"},{"start":78.823,"end":107.422,"text":"我請同仁我們現在的占比跟數字來說明一下報告委員我們現在占的股數的比例是11.3%我們現在是它最大的持股成員國就是區域外的持股會員國所以我們現在就是台灣是現在中美洲開發銀行最大的持股成員國是不是對好那部長我想請問一下你是否了解中美洲開發銀行在我國已經發行了多少的金額的債券呢"},{"start":111.415,"end":116.659,"text":"是報委員大概是3億左右那他在2021年的時候是不是在台北101大樓還設立了辦事處"},{"start":121.901,"end":125.404,"text":"那外交部在114年編列有關中美洲開發銀行的兩億三千九百多萬元的預算是準備用在哪裡呢?而且預算書上面沒有明確的說明也沒有說明這些用途而且還留下為什麼呢?然後我還有請問部長除了這些入股金以外據外傳外交部還要再另外援助中美洲開發銀行的金額超過兩億美元"},{"start":148.781,"end":151.703,"text":"是否屬實?請部長誠實回答,不要欺騙國會。"},{"start":160.031,"end":178.236,"text":"報告委員我們是跟中美洲銀行從2021年起我們成立了一個雙邊基金那每年是提供100萬美元主要是就是說協助我們在中美洲地區的友邦目前是瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯他們就透過中美洲銀行我們來增進雙邊關係另外協助他們的經濟發展跟永續"},{"start":179.016,"end":179.516,"text":"國際反貪腐組織繼2022年起結合了包括美國哥倫比亞"},{"start":196.59,"end":218.167,"text":"大學與中美洲的記者聯盟的整個團體啟動了中美洲的銀行的深入調查所以在這個調查中發現了揭露了中美洲銀行如何將巨額的援助的資金提供給國際上具有爭議的中美洲的獨裁政權像其中有一個例子就是瓜地馬拉的高速公路的計畫自中美洲銀行2008年"},{"start":221.049,"end":227.191,"text":"和準了2.3億美元的援助之後（關於瓜地馬拉高速公路計畫的爭議和貪腐的問題（就不斷地在浮現（而且在2017年的時候由聯合國所支持的反貪腐委員會及瓜地馬拉公共部所進行的調查（發現這個高速公路的整個計畫（遭控貪腐與洗錢的問題（"},{"start":245.077,"end":269.466,"text":"還有負責基礎的建設的每一個官員（超過10位以上的受惠官員都遭到判刑（而且最主要是在歷經15年之後（到現在這條高速公路還沒有完成（然後還有一個例子是2021年全球陷入了COVID-19的疫情（中美洲的銀行宣布提供一筆6億的美元的貸款（用於薩爾瓦多的中小型的企業易後的貸款（"},{"start":270.967,"end":274.41,"text":"然後這個貸款卻遭他們總統挪用了近三分之一的款項那部長我們立法院到現在還凍結的這個113年的相關預算今天本席也安排了預算解凍案但你們外交部的書面寫得洋洋灑灑的一大篇承諾要進行改善那本席稍微看了一下那請問部長你們究竟真正的做了些什麼"},{"start":294.844,"end":321.125,"text":"有關於瓜地馬拉這個CA9的公路當然在我上任之前我們現在就是透明化所有委員要求的公布的資料以及我們的援助的項目包括就是近期的我們包括貝里斯跟瓜地馬拉相關的計畫我們都是我們援助的部分都沒有問題"},{"start":321.846,"end":339.924,"text":"那是這個銀行所涉及到的一些業務當然被質疑我們也就是說要求這個建立透明化跟監督的機制那在臺灣方面我們作為一個捐助國跟最大的持股國"},{"start":340.804,"end":346.049,"text":"我看到中美洲銀行在我國募到的資金其實是全球最高的而且他們的援助基金其實也是都是我們對他們是最高的包括我現在發現南韓比我們還晚加入但是出的錢比我們少援助的金額也比我們少"},{"start":368.587,"end":381.538,"text":"但中美洲銀行和南韓卻是已經合作將援助計畫公開上網有平台完整登錄金流還有標案的資訊那請問部長上一任的吳釗燮在卸任就已經承諾要把臺灣援助的計畫在網站上面公開那為什麼臺灣到現在還沒有公開上網還是究竟已經公開上網了?已經上網了在委員的監督下我們已經把它正式上網"},{"start":395.363,"end":421.853,"text":"所以為了避免中美洲銀行貪腐的話這樣好那這樣的話是不是因為如果像這種東西持續下去那是會企圖用我們人民的納稅錢嗎所以我們或許就會挹注在中美洲的銀行會變成一個無底洞所以我是認為說接避者的保護法的主管機關當然不是外交部啦但是部長你是否認同應該有一部讓吹哨者勇敢接避的接避者保護法來讓內部的問題"},{"start":425.515,"end":450.905,"text":"外交的工作當然民主時代一定是要接受民意的監督特別是民意代表這個是原則但有一些因為涉及到機密性當然我們也就是會在像今天開的這個機密預算的會議上我們還是會依照國家機密法相關的規定來辦理確保我們的外交能夠不受傷害"},{"start":451.769,"end":460.351,"text":"好接下來我在想說在為辛苦的第一線的維繫外交的關係的人員發聲就外交部的說法其實政府推動外管構置自由的管轍的政策的計畫除了可以節省巨額租金外也有經濟的效益還可以強化主管安全的維護而且可以避免外債的因素還是突發的情勢被迫牽管的這種優點"},{"start":479.395,"end":484.856,"text":"所以我現在我看了113年到9月底為止我國住外管處有112處其中我們自有的只有19處自有的比例其實是只有16.96百分比而外交部從92年開始推動住外管設構置計劃已經超過了20年以買代租到現在卻只有10"},{"start":501.741,"end":502.141,"text":"國庫負擔嚴重請問外交部如何"},{"start":532.032,"end":557.744,"text":"徐市路委員講應該是以購置為原則特別是在像美國澳洲這些國家都是民主法治的社會那過去的經驗顯示我們的購置就是事後來講他的增值或是對我們來講就是包括有一些預算都是很正面的所以這個部分我也在加速推動"},{"start":558.624,"end":584.879,"text":"所以像今年就是我們也增列了預算就是雪梨的購置那我們舊金山跟洛杉磯也是已經購置完都已經要遷入辦公先前在紐約我想那個管社的購置是大家認為最成功因為在比較屬於經濟這個比較不景氣或者是有金融這些風暴的時候我們進場"},{"start":586.62,"end":615.277,"text":"大方向我們會朝這個來推動包括最近像貝里斯是一個我們很重要的邦交國我們離他們的那個就是類似說他們的政府中心就很遠又是租的又是一些好像有很多的歷史建築也沒有辦法好好的去把它做更新所以我也是支持應該要構置在以他們中央政府所在地他們也提供了一塊地是給我們"},{"start":616.258,"end":619.26,"text":"我比較關心施法互助的問題因為我看外交部統計其實113年9月中旬的時候與我國簽訂引渡條約的大概有五個國家移交受刑人條約的大概是六個國家"},{"start":639.634,"end":645.677,"text":"施法互助的話大約有13國那表示簽訂的情形其實這種是非常有限的然後針對其中與我國簽訂施法互助條約者其實有13國家但是已經簽訂14項的條約嘛生效的只有11項這樣"},{"start":657.662,"end":665.065,"text":"就是像德國、土瓦魯國還有聖路西亞簽訂的這些都是還沒有生效的所以我想請問一下就是說像我看到113年7月為止這三項都沒有生效那這樣可能會影響司法互助還有受刑人移交還有引渡等領域方向司法合作的關係那部長你是不是瞭解這是什麼問題呢還有外交部對這個計畫有什麼因應呢"},{"start":685.592,"end":705.742,"text":"當然簽訂司法互助或引渡條約或相關的這些協定也是彰顯國家的主權所以這個我們是對很重要的一個政策跟業務那至於有一些因為涉及到雙方的立法機構或者是行政程序當然我們會因為有相關的單位主責的單位我們會來當然"},{"start":709.684,"end":733.951,"text":"﹗"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時32分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請林佳龍部長。"],["林委員憶君：部長，本席想請問一下，中美洲銀行成立的目的，是不是為了協助中美洲地區的區域整合及經濟發展？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["林委員憶君：所以我們看到它和臺灣的企業、公司有一些連結，各式的基礎工程都可以看到臺灣團隊的身影，包括公對公部門，還有公對私部門之間，都有一些連結，而且日益提升。我國114年度在外交部的預算中編列深化參與中美洲銀行的預算，列在第5目的國際合作及關懷，有一項加強雙邊及多邊合作的對外捐助案，共兩億三千九百多萬元，本席現在有幾個問題想要請教部長。第一個，請問臺灣現在對中美洲開發銀行總認股金額是多少？實際繳付的股款及持股比例是多少？"],["林部長佳龍：我請同仁說明現在的占比和數字。"],["孫司長儉元：我們現在占的股數比例是11.3%，是它最大的持股成員國，也是區域外的持股會員國。"],["林委員憶君：所以現在臺灣是中美洲開發銀行最大的持股成員國，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["林委員憶君：部長，本席想請問一下，你是否了解中美洲開發銀行在我國已經發行多少金額的債券？"],["林部長佳龍：詳細的數字請同仁說明一下。"],["孫司長儉元：大概是3億元左右。"],["林委員憶君：它在2021年的時候，是不是在臺北101大樓設立辦事處？外交部114年編列有關中美洲開發銀行的二億三千九百多萬元預算準備用在哪裡？因為預算書沒有明確說明用途和流向，為什麼？還要請問部長，除了這些入股金以外，據外傳，外交部還要再另外援助中美洲開發銀行超過2億美元，是否屬實？請部長誠實回答，不要欺騙國會。"],["林部長佳龍：我們有在評估增加嗎？"],["孫司長儉元：沒有。我們和中美洲銀行從2021年起成立一個雙邊基金，每年提供100萬美元，主要是協助我們在中美洲地區的友邦，目前是瓜地馬拉和貝里斯，透過中美洲銀行增進雙邊關係，協助他們的經濟發展和永續成長。"],["林委員憶君：所以我們每年都提供這樣的金額？"],["孫司長儉元：就是5年。從2021年開始，總共5年，每年100萬美元。"],["林委員憶君：部長，你知道嗎？國際反貪腐組織自2022年起，結合包括美國哥倫比亞大學與中美洲的記者聯盟，啟動中美洲銀行的深入調查，這個調查揭露中美洲銀行如何將巨額的援助資金，提供給國際上具有爭議的中美洲獨裁政權。其中有一個例子，就是瓜地馬拉的高速公路計畫，自中美洲銀行2008年核准2.3億美元的援助之後，關於瓜地馬拉高速公路計畫的爭議和貪腐問題就不斷浮現。","2017年的時候，由聯合國支持的反貪腐委員會及瓜地馬拉公共部進行調查，發現這個高速公路計畫遭控貪腐與洗錢的問題，還有負責基礎建設的官員，有超過10位以上受賄遭到判刑，最重要的是，歷經15年之後，到現在這條高速公路還沒有完成。還有一個例子，2021年全球陷入COVID-19的疫情，中美洲銀行宣布提供一筆6億美元的貸款，用於薩爾瓦多的中小型企業疫後貸款，這個貸款卻遭他們的總統挪用近三分之一款項。","部長，立法院到現在還凍結113年的相關預算，今天本席安排預算解凍案，外交部的書面報告寫了洋洋灑灑一大篇，承諾要進行改善，本席稍微看了一下，請問部長，你們究竟真正做了什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：有關瓜地馬拉的CA9公路，當然是發生在我上任之前，所以我們現在就是透明化，包括委員要求公布的資料以及我們援助的項目，還有近期貝里斯和瓜地馬拉的相關計畫。我們援助的部分都沒有問題，但是這個銀行涉及的一些業務，因為被質疑，所以我們也要求建立透明化和監督的機制。臺灣做為捐助國和最大的持股國，我們還是保持持續參與，所以剛才說到5年共捐贈500萬美元推動相關業務，其實還是集中在我們的邦交國啦！"],["林委員憶君：好。因為中美洲銀行在我國募到的資金，其實是全球最高的，而且對他們的援助基金，我們也是最高的。像南韓比我們晚加入，出的錢比我們少，援助的金額也比我們少，但是中美洲銀行和南韓卻已經合作將援助計畫公開上網，有平台完整登錄金流和標案的資訊。請問部長，上一任的吳釗燮在卸任前，已經承諾要在網站上公開臺灣的援助計畫，為什麼到現在還沒有公開上網？還是已經公開上網了？"],["林部長佳龍：已經上網了。在委員的監督下，我們已經把它正式上網，會透明化。"],["林委員憶君：為了避免中美洲銀行引發的貪腐問題，這樣做是好的，因為這種援助如果持續下去，動用的都是我們人民的納稅錢，而我們挹注的中美洲銀行會變成一個無底洞。所以本席認為，揭弊者保護法的主管機關雖然不是外交部，但是部長是否認同，你們應該也要有一部讓吹哨者勇敢揭弊的揭弊者保護法，讓內部的問題能夠透明化？"],["林部長佳龍：外交的工作，民主時代一定要接受民意的監督，特別是民意代表，這是原則。但有一些因為涉及機密，當然，我們也會像今天這樣在機密預算會議報告，依照國家機密法的相關規定辦理，確保我們的外交不會受到傷害。"],["林委員憶君：接下來本席想再為辛苦在第一線維繫外交關係的人員發聲。就外交部的說法，其實政府推動外館購置自有館舍的政策計畫，除了可以節省鉅額租金外，也有經濟的效益，還可以強化駐館安全的維護，避免因外在因素或突發情勢被迫遷館等優點。本席看了113年到9月底為止的統計，我國駐外館處有112處，其中自有的只有19處，自有比例只有16.96%。外交部從92年開始推動駐外館舍購置計畫，到現在已經超過20年，你們說要以買代租，卻只購置十幾處。","部長，本席想請問一下，為什麼進度那麼慢呢？其實購置駐外館舍可以彰顯我們國家的形象，又能增進與駐在國之間的關係，還有如果駐外館舍的自有率一直沒有辦法提升的話，駐外館舍的租金費用一定會持續成長，這是一定的嘛！這樣國庫負擔非常沉重。請問外交部要如何取得中間的平衡？"],["林部長佳龍：確實如委員說的，應該以購置為原則，特別是像美國、澳洲這些國家，因為都是民主法治的社會。過去的經驗也顯示，就事後來說，購置的館舍也會增值，對我們來說，包括在預算方面，其實都是正面的，所以這個部分我也在加速推動。像今年我們也有增列預算，就是雪梨的購置案，舊金山和洛杉磯已經購置完成要遷入辦公了。","先前在紐約，那個館舍購置是大家認為最成功的，因為我們在經濟比較不景氣或者有金融風暴的時候進場。我們會朝這個大方向推動，像貝里斯，這是我們很重要的邦交國，但我們的駐館離他們的政府中心很遠，又是租的，而且很多歷史建築也沒有辦法好好更新，所以我也支持應該在他們的中央政府所在地購置，他們也提供一塊地給我們興建。"],["林委員憶君：外交部對這個部分要再努力一下。"],["林部長佳龍：所以我有請同仁重新檢討輕重緩急，加速編列預算。"],["林委員憶君：主席，再給本席1分鐘，本席還有一個問題。部長，接下來本席比較關心的是司法互助的問題，因為就外交部的統計，113年9月中旬的時候，與我國簽訂引渡條約的大約有5個國家，簽訂移交受刑人條約的大概是6個國家，至於司法互助，大約有13國簽訂，這也表示簽訂的情形非常有限。其中與我國簽訂司法互助條約者有13國，但是已經簽訂的14項條約，只有11項生效，像德國、吐瓦魯和聖露西亞，這些簽訂的國家都還沒有生效。","所以本席想請問一下，到113年7月為止，這三項都沒有生效，這樣可能會影響司法互助、受刑人移交和引渡等領域的司法合作關係，部長，你有沒有去了解是什麼問題？外交部對這個計畫有什麼因應？"],["林部長佳龍：當然簽訂司法互助、引渡條約或相關協定也是彰顯國家的主權，所以這對我們是很重要的政策和業務。有一些是因為涉及雙方的立法機構或者行政程序，因為有相關的主責單位，我們會看怎麼加速促進，儘快完成程序，也可以增加……"],["林委員憶君：部長，因為這些國家已經簽訂，但是沒有生效，所以部長可能要去了解一下，外交部要加油。"],["林部長佳龍：因為條約、法律有一些相關程序，我們會去了解，也會加速推動。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：部長，請回。接下來請徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157622","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966d99013dd3304363b768d6645aa7846739bb85de07fde91d3ebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:30:16 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但是覺得很奇怪打房不是政府說打房已經見效了嗎"},{"start":239.727,"end":258.499,"text":"成效出現房價開始緩或是跌那你房租應該要降啊不然你們要想辦法看有什麼策略讓300萬的租屋族他住得起他生活得起心智都沒漲啊"},{"start":260.256,"end":288.066,"text":"薪資是有漲喔,薪資是有漲一到九月的薪資它整個一個實質如果扣除通膨它實際是成長的好,你說薪資有漲,漲幾%這個部分它扣除通膨明目超過2%實質也在一點多%就是明目有超過2%啦,實質也一點多%這樣子啦你就漲那個一點多%不痛不癢"},{"start":289.997,"end":319.002,"text":"就算你漲個你說的2%所有的民眾感覺是難過的啊因為你薪資漲1%漲2%抵不過我吃的那個雞腿便當抵不過我每天工作中午晚上吃的排骨便當啊排骨台那個排骨便當1000一個便當也才"},{"start":320.404,"end":341.72,"text":"六、七十塊現在一個排骨便當要多少錢排骨便當的話火車站附近就是一百塊一百塊喔阿雞腿便當一百二十塊阿本來六十塊漲一百塊漲四十塊耶主計長阿超過70%捏然後你說薪資成長才2%跟你講3%好了"},{"start":348.319,"end":375.698,"text":"遠遠追不上物價的飆漲這個是扣除物價的成長總之啊是主計長是很多官員來這邊啊是鐵打的政府、流水的官啊流來流去反正我在這邊待個兩年、三年時間到下台一鞠躬沒什麼事可是國家的發展是要永續的啊是"},{"start":376.633,"end":404.89,"text":"拜託啊,貧富懸殊要怎麼樣縮短它的差距不是要叫大家貧喔你們政府就要想方法讓大家全部都富起來時代在變政府很多官員的心態一直沒有調整沒有與時俱進是主計長是你有沒有買比特幣沒有"},{"start":407.199,"end":435.86,"text":"你沒有啊政府有沒有鼓勵大家買比特幣一般也是不鼓勵啦從頭到尾都反對啊所以我舉例的這個新興的產業因為政府的阻止政府的不輔導讓很多年輕人啊少掉致富的機會"},{"start":442.057,"end":464.012,"text":"虛擬貨幣這些交易或這次成長老扣扣都不知道啦最有機會接觸的就是這些年輕人政府又全盤的封殺主計長如果政府從10年前就開始給予適當的空間合法合規的輔導主計長你知道"},{"start":467.516,"end":492.476,"text":"這10年來虛擬貨幣、比特幣的成長成長了幾倍?因為有時候高風險高報酬啦成長了幾倍?主計長成長了1萬倍換言之10年前你如果讓這些年輕人他去接觸他有機會可以賺到錢"},{"start":494.927,"end":519.534,"text":"結果你封殺了這些年輕的機會造成了過去在整個結構裡面富者橫富、貧者越貧所以你就拉開不斷的拉開了財富的差距我們就要說政府要用新的思維"},{"start":522.167,"end":549.333,"text":"來多想一些辦法來鼓勵年輕人讓年輕人活在臺灣是有希望的讓未來社會的結構不要產生矛盾是要更和諧的這個才是你們每年編預算的一個重要的宗旨最後再問一個問題軍公教人員待遇的問題是我最關心的"},{"start":551.035,"end":579.988,"text":"我希望每一年政府稅收都超徵今年超徵多少這個部分目前大概應該是三千多億吧三千多億本席一直主張每一個人發紅包一萬塊你們已經開始做了沒這個部分一個幾萬塊大家都會心存感激謝謝政府謝謝主計長"},{"start":581.752,"end":610.491,"text":"你與其把錢亂亂花倒不如拿一萬塊讓大家花放在自己的口袋更安心更安全而不是每一次你們來立法院拿著五張紙就叫所有的立委說欸臺電缺錢你要撥補一千億趕快趕快通過不要吧不要做這個該做的你要做所以說超徵就還稅於民啊"},{"start":612.162,"end":631.025,"text":"我們優先來還債還債可以部分的還啦然後你那個有一些不該花的一些軍購買了半天東西也沒到買的有的還沒過期的買的還被中間的前客A了一筆那個都很大條欸"},{"start":633.527,"end":662.552,"text":"黃先生主席長你多好好思考一下啦像臺電你一直要一千億那請問臺電有沒有做到開源節流現在核市做不做這個部分我們會請臺電來做檢討啦現在核市已經停掉嘛那核市做不做這個部分也必須要他們來做一些檢討之後你就算做不做你知道那個核市場那個地有多大"},{"start":666.414,"end":695.912,"text":"已經閒置在那邊多久?不信你問審計長一些土地閒置在那邊那一些老舊設備又不提升開園沒做、節流也沒做唯一想的就是趕快要錢要錢這樣的心態我們怎麼樣願意把一千億就隨便你們說了五張紙的報告我們就通過讓你們拿一千億去用拜託啊"},{"start":697.419,"end":701.243,"text":"錢要花在刀口上省一點用這是民脂民膏啊拜託謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時30分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，麻煩請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：主計長好。國內的貧富懸殊越來越大，一葉知秋，我們看到美國總統的選舉，很多人問拜登為什麼會輸而川普為什麼會上，主計長，你覺得最大的意涵在哪裡？"],["陳主計長淑姿：主要可能是通貨膨脹造成物價漲太多。"],["羅委員明才：對，其實就是美國的美國夢現在已經消失了，過去美國追求的就是財富的自由，他們所追求的大概都是相同的理念，所有的環境，或者是你的生活、車輛等等，有車有房都是大家統統都有。但是結構一直在改變，就是因為貧富懸殊越來越大。臺灣現在最有錢跟沒有資產的相差比例是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前吉尼係數差倍是66.9。"],["羅委員明才：66倍，這個差距大不大？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前來講，我們也跟其他外國來比，事實上也不算最高的，但是這是自由經濟發展的必然成果，所以這個部分我們也儘量要來做……"],["羅委員明才：如果你說的自由經濟發展最後的終點是貧富懸殊越來越大，甚至是100倍，是1,000倍，主計長，這樣的自由經濟發展一定要趕快做調整。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：不然社會的動盪、社會的不穩定，馬上就出現。就好比現在物價飆漲、房價高漲，請問主計長，租房子的租屋族大概有多少人？"],["陳主計長淑姿：差不多300萬。"],["羅委員明才：300萬的人，是以年輕人比較多數，就是在租房子，他們認真念書，畢業以後為了在雙北、六都工作就要租房子，主計長，房價有沒有飆漲？最近房價有沒有比較往下掉？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前是有。"],["羅委員明才：有嘛，有往下掉，那我請問主計長，為什麼房租沒有掉？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對於房租的部分我再補充說明一下。因為我們統計調查的結果，有需要租屋的需求，我們統計調查數字大概87萬左右，所以我們最近在做一些租屋補貼的政策，這個部分目前大概都是超過60萬以上的補助。"],["羅委員明才：對，但是我覺得很奇怪，政府不是說打房已經見效了嗎？成效出現房價開始緩或是跌，所以房租應該要降啊！不然你們要想辦法看有什麼策略，讓300萬的租屋族能夠住得起，能夠生活得起，因為薪資都沒漲啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：薪資是有漲，1到9月的薪資，如果扣除通膨實際是成長的。"],["羅委員明才：好，你說薪資有漲，漲幾趴？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分扣除通膨，就是名目有超過2%，實質也百分之一點多。"],["羅委員明才：就漲一點多趴不痛不癢，就算漲個你說的2%，所有的民眾感覺是難過的啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：就是高過物價。"],["羅委員明才：因為薪資漲1%或是2%，抵不過我吃的雞腿便當，抵不過我每天工作中午或晚上吃的排骨便當啊！一個排骨便當以前也才六、七十塊，現在一個排骨便當要多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：排骨便當的話，火車站附近就是100塊。"],["羅委員明才：100塊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，雞腿便當是120塊。"],["羅委員明才：本來60塊，漲成100塊，漲40塊耶！主計長，漲幅超過百分之六、七十了耶！薪資成長才2%，跟你講就3%好了，遠遠追不上物價的飆漲。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個是扣除物價的成長。"],["羅委員明才：總之，主計長，很多官員來這邊，鐵打的政府、流水的官，流來流去反正我就在這邊待個兩年、三年，時間到就下台鞠躬，可是國家的發展是要永續的啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：拜託啊，貧富懸殊要怎麼樣縮短它的差距，不是要叫大家貧喔，你們政府就要想方法讓大家全部都富起來，時代在變，政府很多官員的心態一直沒有調整，沒有與時俱進。","主計長，你有沒有買比特幣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["羅委員明才：你沒有啊？政府有沒有鼓勵大家買比特幣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般也是不鼓勵啦！"],["羅委員明才：從頭到尾都反對啊，所以我舉例這個新興的產業，因為政府的阻止，政府的不輔導，讓很多年輕人少掉致富的機會，虛擬貨幣這些交易或這次成長，「老硞硞」都不知道啦，最有機會接觸的就是這些年輕人，政府又全盤的封殺。主計長，如果政府從10年前就開始給予適當的空間、合法合規的輔導，你知道這10年來虛擬貨幣比特幣成長了幾倍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為有高風險、高報酬啦。"],["羅委員明才：成長了幾倍？主計長，成長了1萬倍，換言之，10年前你如果讓這些年輕人去接觸，他有機會可以賺到錢，結果你封殺了這些年輕人的機會，造成了過去在整個結構裡面富者恆富、貧者越貧，所以你就不斷的拉開了財富差距。我們希望政府要用新的思維來多想一些辦法，來鼓勵年輕人，讓年輕人活在臺灣是有希望的，讓未來社會的結構不要產生矛盾，要更和諧的，這個才是你們每年編預算的一個重要的宗旨。","最後再問一個問題，軍公教人員待遇的問題是我最關心的，每一年政府稅收都超徵，今年超徵多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分目前大概應該是三千多億吧！"],["羅委員明才：三千多億，本席一直主張每一個人發紅包1萬塊，你們已經開始做了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分……"],["羅委員明才：一個1萬塊，大家都會心存感激，謝謝政府，謝謝主計長，你與其把錢亂亂花，倒不如拿1萬塊讓大家花，放在自己口袋更安心、更安全，而不是每一次你們來立法院拿著五張紙就告訴所有立委台電缺錢要撥補1,000億，要我們趕快通過。不要吧！不要做這個，該做的你要做，稅收超徵就還稅於民啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們優先來還債。"],["羅委員明才：還債可以部分的還，然後你們有一些不該花的，還有一些軍購，買了半天東西也沒到，有的還買了過期的，買了還被中間的掮客A了一筆，那個都很大條。我希望主計長好好思考一下，像台電一直要1,000億，請問台電有沒有做到開源節流？現在核四做不做？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們會請台電來做檢討。"],["羅委員明才：現在核四已經停掉了，那核四做不做？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分也必須要他們來做一些檢討之後……"],["羅委員明才：就算做不做，你知道核四廠那個地有多大？已經閒置在那邊多久？不信你問審計長，一些土地閒置在那邊，一些老舊設備又不提升，開源沒做，節流也沒做，唯一想的就是趕快要錢、要錢，對於這樣的心態，我們怎麼願意就隨便讓你們以五張紙的報告就通過讓你們拿1,000億去用？拜託！錢要花在刀口上，省一點用，這是民脂民膏啊，拜託！"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員。","接著請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員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的威信蕩然無存"},{"start":360.506,"end":386.343,"text":"二方面我們應該研擬怎麼樣的對策那這些對策的前提是錯誤的數字這怎麼會有好的對策不是這樣嗎所以要面對真實把真實找出來我剛剛提到人類政部他光包出貸款這30萬筆那你們為什麼為什麼不好好去做研究那"},{"start":388.157,"end":410.726,"text":"你們更新你們更新啊更新你們調查的數字每年啊都大概更新大概100戶左右啦所以你樣本數少那樣本也不合時去更新當然你出來的數字跟民間的就會差很多啦所以主計長你的看法呢"},{"start":415.04,"end":432.457,"text":"房租指數佔整個消費物價指數裡面的權重高達16%欸你看所有這個CPI權重比房租最高再來外食費、交通費、娛樂費、教養費一路下來"},{"start":437.092,"end":461.253,"text":"這10項10項指標裡面房租高達16%所以你低估了租金的指數你等於就是低估了整個物價上漲率嘛不是這樣嗎?報告委員因為以我們來講我們的一個調查是屬於基本資料一個調查那重點是說剛剛談到的北市的比較偏高的部分它有一部分是屬於營業的一個租金"},{"start":461.933,"end":487.034,"text":"一、二的租金就會比較偏高但是一般家庭的住戶的租金就會比較低所以一般我們跟內政部調查的數字內政部的調查也是2點多跟我們大部分是接近我們這個部分是最基礎的資料如果有一些針對業務性他要做的調查的部分會有各部會的統計的部分來做調查所以這部分也特別跟委員來做一個說明"},{"start":488.82,"end":504.432,"text":"你這一個部分你私下來做一些補充說明我了解到的是內政部的資料你們說這個房屋規格不宜但是30萬筆好過你才取樣1350筆而且這1350筆你還是每年只更新100筆的資料"},{"start":513.279,"end":539.045,"text":"這差距太大了那調查目的也不一樣我們也特別在跟委員你來報告這樣子因為實際我們國家我們租屋的人口數高達300萬人所以你區區的你只抽1350戶那這當然沒有代表性啊300萬的國民租屋你抽1350戶"},{"start":544.451,"end":565.818,"text":"這個任何人來評估都認為這個不夠這個差距太遠了吧所以現在小市民的感受就是這個這幾年的房租上漲的壓力房租隨著房價這樣飆升房租也跟著形成我們小市民很大的一個生活壓力而"},{"start":566.698,"end":590.213,"text":"政府對此束手無策束手無策照說應該要根據詳實的資料來詳列如何解決的方式才對所以我最後跟你提這一點只有審計處人家他們有去查到他看法我跟他看法完全一致審計部他建議恢復改善所得分配專案小組"},{"start":591.838,"end":599.14,"text":"他建議他積極的建議我在第一次質詢上個會結束我就認為說應該把這個小組應該恢復為什麼因為這個小組恢復他可以落實來執行協調各部會督導各部會"},{"start":613.747,"end":635.64,"text":"針對改善所得那應該做的哪一些計畫你總要有個總協調人嘛所以我認為改善所得分配的專案小組一定要出來因為現在我們收入後端20%的收入跟前端20%的收入差了66.9倍"},{"start":639.972,"end":661.479,"text":"這還是根據你們的資料差了66.9倍因為它統計調查的一個基礎不一樣30年前國庫調查那是屬於普查那時候是比較簡略那現在我們是用資料庫的一個數據直接去跑那所以這本身一個數據也不一樣所以你是說30年前的16.8倍不準"},{"start":663.56,"end":670.205,"text":"現在的66.9倍很準因為資料本身是比較簡單一點那就這一句就夠了就66.9倍是準的嘛那主計長你認為我們國民收入"},{"start":678.57,"end":693.905,"text":"相差66.9倍你認為對嗎這是指有包括財產的部分所以今年大部分把財產納進來的部分就是屬於它有一些實價登錄的部分價格有進來所以這個部分有資料有收集所以這把財產納進來才會有這麼高是這樣"},{"start":696.988,"end":701.609,"text":"財產納進來是以資本財去賺的收入我認為你應該遵照審計部做的建議要求以及本席我相信還有其他立委都會跟你要求就是說我們應該恢復這個"},{"start":720.196,"end":738.609,"text":"改善所得分配小組這樣子的一個專案小組應該恢復讓他詳實落實去督導各部會針對改善所得這個部分做詳實的計畫這樣才對謝謝委員指教我們會檢討來評估最後一句你好好的回去"},{"start":740.148,"end":749.16,"text":"把審計部的很多項建議好好看一看有感覺上審計部比你們用功多、認真多謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時17分）謝謝主席，我請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：主計長，你是很認真啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：我看主計處的同仁也都很認真，不過我還是必須提醒你，主計處職司的不管是中央總預算、特種基金的核編以及會計決算業務等等各種統計業務，就是以詳實最重要，不能失真啦！簡單講，主計處不是政府的化妝師，這一句話你要記下來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：也就是說，如果你統計的這些數字失真的話，而且跟民間的感受全然不符的話，人民就會覺得主計長你在幫政府化妝、擦胭脂、抹粉，我們任何一個政黨，尤其現在，民進黨的執政不需要任何化妝師，我們是光明磊落的漢子，該怎麼樣你要表達嘛！社會真實的情況你要表達，所以我列出幾個數字，你看看，光是消費者物價指數CPI跟消費者信心指數，很清楚這一年多來，尤其這半年物價指數是繼續上升，那麼信心指數是下降，消費者信心指數當然包括大家投資股票、家庭經濟狀況、國內經濟景氣、就業機會、購買耐久財等等這些，這幾個指標統統下滑，CPI消費者物價指數已經達到通貨膨脹的警戒線。","繼續跟主計長提到房租，現在房租指數嚴重失真，怎麼講呢？我就跟上一任的主計長提到這個問題，他說回去會查查看，結果民間所調查的房租漲幅跟主計處的調查差了5.5倍之多啦！我們來看民間用的方式，台大經濟碩士李祖福先生發表一篇論文，他研究關於租金的漲幅，蒐集調查591租屋網等107萬筆交易資料，他的調查結果發現租金漲價指數高達3.56%到3.58%，而同一個時期主計總處的調查結果竟然只有0.64而已。另外，臺北市政府今年6月也做調查，是以實價登錄的臺北市區住宅案件為基礎，以實價登錄去查的租金漲幅也是年增率高達5.83%。而同樣時期主計處所調查公布出來的沒有針對六都個別城市，是調查所謂北區，這跟臺北市比較接近，竟然只有2.22%，你們調查的指數等於不到一半之多。更扯的是，有更多中央單位也做調查並提供給你們的，像內政部提供給你們是30萬筆，天啊！不是3萬筆、5萬筆，是提供30萬筆包租代管，反觀主計總處所查的是1,350筆，請問誰比較有代表性？這很清楚啦，沒辦法說服民眾主計處以1,350筆計算的會強過內政部提供的30萬筆，這不可能的事情嘛！所以民間慢慢的會覺得主計處的統計失真，主計處統計失真的差別在哪裡？因為你代表的是整個中央政府，應該要去詳實調查，調查出來的資料是要給中央政府作為施政及推動各項政策的最重要參考，所以如果失真了，一方面政府的威信蕩然無存，二方面我們應該研擬怎麼樣的對策，那這些對策的前提是錯誤的數字，這怎麼會有好的對策？不是這樣嗎？","所以我們要面對真實，把真實找出來，我剛剛提到內政部光包租代管就30萬筆，那你們為什麼不好好去做研究？再就你們更新調查的數字，每年的更新大概都是100戶左右，所以樣本數少，樣本也不核實做更新，當然出來的數字跟民間的就會差很多，主計長對此的看法呢？房租指數占整個消費者物價指數裡面的權重高達16%，你看所有CPI權重比裡面房租最高，再來外食費、交通費、娛樂費、教養費，一路下來這10項指標裡面，房租高達16%，所以你低估了租金的指數，等於就是低估了整個物價上漲率，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為我們的調查是屬於基本資料的調查，剛剛委員談到北市比較偏高的部分，它有一部分是屬於營業的租金，營業租金比較偏高，一般家庭住戶的租金就比較低。一般我們跟內政部的調查數字來講，內政部的調查也是二點多，跟我們大部分是接近。我們這個部分是最基礎的資料，如果有一些針對業務性要做的調查，這會由各部會的統計來做調查，特別跟委員說明。"],["王委員世堅：好，你私下來做一些補充說明。我所了解的是，對於內政部的資料，你們說房屋規格不一，但是30萬筆耶，好過你們才取樣1,350筆，而且這1,350筆還是每年只更新100筆資料，這差距太大了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，不過調查目的也不一樣，我們特別再跟委員報告。"],["王委員世堅：好。我們國家的租屋人口數高達300萬人，所以你區區的只抽1,350戶，這當然沒有代表性，有300萬的國民租屋，你抽1,350戶，任何人來評估都會認為樣本不夠，這個差距太遠了吧，差距太遠了！所以現在小市民的感受就是這幾年房租上漲的壓力，隨著房價飆升，房租也跟著形成小市民很大的生活壓力，而政府對此束手無策，照理說束手無策也應該根據詳實的資料來詳列如何解決的方式才對。","最後我要跟主計長提，這一點只有審計處他們有去查到，我跟他們的看法完全一致，審計部建議恢復改善所得分配專案小組，他們積極的建議，我在上個會期第一次質詢就說我認為應 該把這個小組恢復，為什麼？因為這個小組恢復可以落實執行協調各部會、督導各部會，針對改善所得應該做的一些計畫，總要有個總協調人，所以我認為改善所得分配的專案小組一定要出來，因為以現在我們的收入，後端20%的收入跟前端20%的收入差了66.9倍，這還是根據你們的資料，差了66.9倍。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它統計調查的基礎不一樣，30年前國富調查是屬於普查，那時候是比較簡略，現在我們是用資料庫的數據直接去跑，所以數據也不一樣。"],["王委員世堅：所以你是說30年前的16.8倍不準，現在的66.9倍很準？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為資料本身是比較簡單一點……"],["王委員世堅：那就這一句就夠了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：來源也不同。"],["王委員世堅：就66.9倍是準的嘛！主計長，我們國民收入相差66.9倍，你認為對嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是指有包括財產的部分，所以今年大部分把財產納進來，就是屬於有一些實價登錄的部分，價格也進來，這個部分資料有蒐集，所以是把財產納進來才會這麼高，是這樣的原因。"],["王委員世堅：你說的財產納進來，那是以資本財去賺的收入的部分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分有包含資本財。"],["王委員世堅：我認為你應該遵照審計部所做的建議要求，本席相信還有其他立委都會跟你要求，就是我們應該恢復改善所得分配小組，這樣的一個專案小組應該恢復，讓他們詳實落實去督導各部會，針對改善所得這個部分做詳實的計畫，這樣才對，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝委員指教，我們會檢討來評估。"],["王委員世堅：我最後一句，你回去之後把審計部很多項建議好好的看一看。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：我感覺審計部比你們用功多了，認真多了。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員。","繼續請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966f2e3e3c8c7c78104a85017ab97aa926f9bb85de07fde91d3dd6b1f49ba06ce335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:31:54 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蔡易餘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":914,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時32分）謝謝主席。是不是有請李主委？"],["主席：請李主委。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。主委，針對國內蛋價的問題，因為蛋在今年整年都是供過於求，所以價格調降，而且已經降到歷史低點。最近可能因為颱風的關係，供過於求的狀況比較趨緩，所以蛋商協會有漲價，但是公平會一直認為這個漲價機制不透明。現在蛋價是否為合理價格？公平會後來調查的結果怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，第一個，蛋價的價格決定在畜牧法有一些特別規定，如果是在這個機制下做產銷調節而產生的價格，畜牧法有相關規定，如果超出這個機制之外去聯合哄抬，公平法有查處的空間。我們也有和農委會做很緊密的聯繫，如果有聯合的事證，我們一定會去查處，我們有和……"],["蔡委員易餘：但是價格應該是由蛋雞協會決定，所以你們要怎麼證明他們有聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是由畜產會和其他蛋商、協會協調，畜牧法裡面有規定，有一個產銷協調的機制。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！可是價格還是由單一方面決定嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：對。這當中會去談……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以基本上你們也是基於畜牧法的規定，讓他們自行決定價格，只要沒有哄抬，原則上你們就不介入，是這個意思嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我了解了。同樣這個問題，我還是要問，因為國內一直質疑公平會到底可以發揮什麼樣的效能，如果遇到其他部會，公平會是不是相對弱勢？就是由大家決定，你們不介入，會有這樣的狀況嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：也不會，我們會看事情的本質及主管的法規。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我就想要問了，像這次銀行的併購案非常精彩，本來是台新和新光，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：後來中信用非合意的併購方式在市場上公開收購。事實上這件事公平會也有立案調查，只是後來金管會決定中信不能使用股票加現金的方式，所以他們被迫沒辦法繼續進行這樣的收購。但是我們知道，不管是中信加新光，或者台新加新光，基本上他們在國內金融業的市占率都不會到達公平交易法認為的壟斷，或者會有操控金融的狀況。既然是這樣，看起來金管會單方面的決定對中信是不公平的，這部分公平會有置喙的空間嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：中信有來申報結合，我們也有受理，但是後來中信撤案。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然它撤案了嘛！所以這案就不在你，是吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我才會想和你討論，如果它沒撤案，本席還不會和你討論。我現在要問的是，公平會可以介入的力道在哪裡？在我舉的這個例子，假若中信沒有撤案，中信硬認為為什麼他們不可以繼續公開收購，因為它公開收購對股東也好或是對新光金業務的員工也好，未必是最差的選擇，當然，也不是代表一定是最好的，但是很多事沒有走到最後就不會知道結果。但是很明顯地，這件事情被金管會阻攔，這個阻攔的動作，站在公平會的立場，真的符合你們認為的公平交易嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：第一個，金管會是金融主管機關，不管做出什麼樣的決策，這部分金管會應該有他們的考量。如果中信向公平會申報，而且沒有撤回的話，我們還是回到一般結合審查的原則，依照競爭秩序應該要處理的問題進行審查。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們還是繼續審查競爭秩序的部分嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會繼續審查，我們也不會……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！所以這就是我說的，我剛剛說了兩個議題，一個是你們尊重畜牧法的規定；另外一個，因為金管會才是金融界的主管機關，他們有他們的審查標準，但是就外人看起來，會覺得這樣好像不是很公平的交易，因為政府的手涉入太深。"],["李主任委員鎂：如果它沒有撤回，我們一樣會審查。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果政府的手涉入，這是公平會應該關心的嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果中信金沒有撤案，繼續申報這個結合，我們還是會照原來的結合程序繼續審查。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！可是那是一個假設的狀況，因為這件事已經不存在了。第二個，本席再問最後一個問題，這次我們看到很多企業在棒球比賽舉行的時候在網路貼文，如果臺灣打到四強、二強或打贏日本，他們就會做怎樣的活動，這樣的促銷活動就是屬於網路廣告，或者是想要增加網路點擊率；但是隨著比賽越打越好，業者的活動內容就越來越縮水，因為一開始說得太滿，結果中華隊的狀況好到大家都出乎意料，所以很多這類的廣告活動內容都縮水，這樣是否違反公平交易法，因為他們用虛偽不實或引人錯誤的表示或表徵？"],["李主任委員鎂：不排除有這個可能，所以這個案子我們會去了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，你們應該要介入調查，調查結果是不是再提供給我們辦公室？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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consultation部長我們現在收到的訊息包括外媒包括我們自己國內的媒體就是這麼說那你要去講工作小組那到最後如果沒有你要怎麼說我們現在要講的是"},{"start":285.031,"end":287.053,"text":"蔡前總統曾經形容加入CPTPP是台灣邁向全球自由貿易關鍵的一步如果這個是你們剛剛你不好在這裡說你們剛剛有討論或者你們根本連討論都沒有我認為其實我們討論只是在剛剛那個場合"},{"start":304.105,"end":309.889,"text":"已經有這樣子的一個高期待因為我們進了美牛我們進了美豬我們連核食我們所有的還包括跟美國並沒有在CPTPP裡面啦我們是跟台北市21世紀貿易當役部長你面對問題去解決問題我們一直希望"},{"start":322.677,"end":327.2,"text":"我希望委員能夠來瞭解問題啦我知道問題啊你的問題啊問題是美國本來是有的啊他是退掉了嘛沒有啦他是TPP啦不是CPTPP啦我知道美國是TPP現在因為他退出才是由日本下去他們做這樣的主導你要去講這個部分顯然你怕面對問題因為如果另外具體的消息台灣在報告"},{"start":354.838,"end":358.602,"text":"我希望你們尊重我們這樣子的我們一直很希望你可以就這個問題來回答我就要回答啊你剛剛回答是回答什麼你不要留那麼多錢"},{"start":370.453,"end":374.094,"text":"中國一直都會是一個問題台灣跟中國是因為政治的議題然後就被擱置了中國不會消失所以外媒就是這麼說那你去跟外媒說你不用跟我說我們看到的就是這樣那你的結果你的什麼資訊你現在就是有被討論嗎你有被討論嗎你有被討論嗎如果這一次如果我們沒有被納入討論我們甚至還是被擱置你要不要下台"},{"start":399.4,"end":402.162,"text":"委員你誤會了問題我幫你說明我不是誤會問題我現在在理解問題你今天如果你當一個外交部長然後只是會宣傳你到立陶宛去或者帶了這樣的一個歐洲像我們"},{"start":415.332,"end":420.256,"text":"你到立法院去然後我們再問這個問題CPTPP現在已經要審預算的一個階段如果你用這樣的態度我覺得你在敷衍我們你比較急一點喔我沒有急阿我剛剛是很溫和的問"},{"start":433.286,"end":453.073,"text":"這是因為你一直在輕忽我們的問題沒有 我是很誠懇啊我做過立委我知道我真的很想跟委員對話那你可以講啊好現在讓你講就是說他有一個程序要成立工作小組我們現在爭取大部分的國家我們接觸都支持沒有反對所以有一些報導是錯誤的"},{"start":454.614,"end":478.975,"text":"那據說能夠成立工作小組因為有共識絕的問題（哪一個報導是錯誤的（就是所謂的被擱置（他要全部共識支持嘛對不對現在加拿大今年做組（加拿大有討論這個案子嗎我跟委員說明加拿大今年有一個解釋五月的時候做出來的就是說在成立正式工作小組之間也可以做諮商所以我們台灣現在跟有一半的國家都諮商他們都支持可是還沒有到絕對多數 新加坡跟馬來西亞有沒有支持"},{"start":479.295,"end":479.856,"text":"阿富汗三原則"},{"start":497.077,"end":510.403,"text":"對解釋一下反對者要提理由因為他們都沒有理由所以也沒有對台灣反對他們有沒有支持啦所以支持是要成立工作小組這件事情要在大會裡面去決定那你覺得為什麼他們這一次為什麼這一次"},{"start":517.907,"end":545.414,"text":"加拿大的說法他們說目前準備最充分的其實就是台灣跟哥斯大黎加可是哥斯大黎加已經被同意了那你覺得最大的原因是什麼其實齁都被同意啦阿只是你有被同意嗎台灣我們有被同意啦哥斯大黎加哥斯大黎加可不可以參加他要成立工作小組哥斯大黎加可不可以參加目前成立工作小組去審查哥斯大黎加可不可以參加"},{"start":547.603,"end":569.091,"text":"哥斯大力家可不可以參加因為他就這幾個嘛都可以申請啦要成立工作小組才能審查啦哥斯大力家可不可以參加都有資格去申請啦他可以參加嗎這一次到目前為止就你得到的資訊有沒有因為我們有派人在CPTPP我們有派人在CPTPP哥斯大力家有沒有被同意的"},{"start":570.037,"end":580.515,"text":"委員現在是進行程序性還沒有進到實質審查至少目前他們已經有被討論他是不是已經有基本上有被同意因為所有的都有共識是不是是不是啊如果委員給我一分鐘我給你全世界"},{"start":584.571,"end":591.715,"text":"你不用給我全世界你只要給台灣人有機會進入CPTPP這個是有期待的目的可以達成可是現在顯然聽你講話我們沒有辦法做這樣的期待原來其實我跟你"},{"start":600.981,"end":601.201,"text":"我現在說的是"},{"start":619.63,"end":626.857,"text":"我們現在有兩個國家（包括中國（包括我們台灣（他現在就是因為台灣跟中國有陣地的問題（所以我們讓擱置（這種的行為（已經都是已經存在的問題（你也都不敢回答（你不可以繼續去處理這些事情（"},{"start":639.508,"end":645.092,"text":"臺灣是一樣的程度我們也是準備的非常充分可是我們沒有的原因是因為政治的問題所以你必須要面對問題你是新上任的我們本來期待你有一個新的作為然後可以好好的做可是顯然也不是那一分鐘麻煩你用書面給大家交代你不用給我全世界麻煩你給臺灣人更大的期待跟機會謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時20分）謝謝主席，麻煩請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長，剛剛您來委員會之前，有先進總統府見高層，對於臺灣加入CPTPP被擱置這個問題，剛剛是不是有討論？"],["林部長佳龍：針對臺灣爭取加入CPTPP，我們一直都有在推動，也有向府院報告，現在行政院總談判代表楊珍妮政委也在做跨部會協調。"],["馬委員文君：部長，本席知道。本席現在是說，因為這是剛出現的新聞，在您來之前，因為這是重要會議，也是例行性的，這個議題有沒有被討論？討論了什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：最主要是針對出訪的相關安排。"],["馬委員文君：所以CPTPP被擱置這個部分，你們連談都沒談？"],["林部長佳龍：我們另外有討論，在行政院的層次。"],["馬委員文君：所以今天沒有談？"],["林部長佳龍：我們談判總代表和跨部會的同仁，都有針對這兩天的狀況密切注意，這裡面就涉及到……"],["馬委員文君：我們已經確定被擱置了，我們就事論事啦！這件事應該滿明確的。"],["林部長佳龍：現在還在開會中，並不是所謂的擱置，他們是要成立工作小組才能夠進入具體的協商，包括雙邊的關係，現在也可以展開前協商的協商。"],["馬委員文君：部長，關於這些事務，尤其是外交事務，本席相信你也非常熟悉，所以我們不用再說這些細節。現在傳出來的消息，包括主辦的加拿大，其實他們也有提出這樣的意見，還有所有的成員國，其實都已經提到。這次的案子，其實我們本來也是滿懷希望，因為去參加之前，也說這次由加拿大主辦的話，對我們來說可能是有史以來最友善、最有利的條件，可是案子現在被擱置了，這就是事實。我們現在想要知道應該怎麼做？CPTPP被擱置的問題，就部長的回答，顯然你們剛剛並沒有談到這個問題，是嗎？請你回答有沒有就好了。"],["林部長佳龍：因為沒有所謂擱置這個問題。如果我們去申請，不管先後，他們要成立工作小組，成立工作小組……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們現在不是要討論這個部分，因為這不是我們可以決定的。本席現在要知道的是，你說他們還在開會，但是到目前為止我們是被擱置的狀況，剛剛大家在府院討論的時候，有沒有提到應該怎麼因應？這個部分有沒有討論到？"],["林部長佳龍：剛剛我到府內沒有討論CPTPP，這是行政院總談判代表在處理，是跨部會的，我們有一個群組在進行。"],["馬委員文君：所以這個部分沒有討論？"],["林部長佳龍：我們去申請，他們必須成立工作小組，現在他們開放能夠成立諮商的……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你說的這些我們知道，我們現在只看結果，目前我們得到的訊息是這樣。我們本來以為這是非常重要的事情，因為每次在審預算，或者對國人提到CPTPP的時候，都會提到CPTPP所有的成員組織已經占全球經濟的15%，這次是一個很重要的機會，因為我們沒有機會參加其他的貿易組織，真的很不容易，所以我們把機會或者希望都放在這裡。如果現在這個案子已經面臨被擱置的狀況，可是我們卻沒有在這麼重要的會議討論，本席不知道為什麼你們要編列這麼高額的預算，因為它顯然不被重視或是不重要。是這樣嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是被擱置。我要清楚的說明，我們目前接觸的對象、國家都是支持的，只是他們必須成立工作小組，因為自奧克蘭三原則之後，加拿大有一個解釋，讓我們可以成立pre-consultation……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們現在收到的訊息，包括外媒和國內媒體都是這麼說，你現在說是因為要成立工作小組，如果到最後不是這樣，你要怎麼說？"],["林部長佳龍：就是一步、一步來。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在要說的是，蔡前總統曾經形容，加入CPTPP是臺灣邁向全球自由貿易關鍵的一步，如果你不方便在這裡說明你們剛剛有討論，或者你們根本連討論都沒有，我們認為……"],["林部長佳龍：我們會討論，只是不會在剛剛那個場合。"],["馬委員文君：現在已經讓國人高度期待，因為我們進了美牛、美豬，我們連核食都同意進口，還包括和加拿大有很多……"],["林部長佳龍：美國並沒有在CPTPP裡面，我們是跟臺美21世紀貿易倡議……"],["馬委員文君：他們是後來退下來的嘛！部長，你要面對問題、解決問題，我們一直希望你要去說明這個部分。"],["林部長佳龍：我希望委員能了解問題啦！我就是在協助讓大家了解啦！"],["馬委員文君：本席知道。問題是美國本來有參加，但是現在退出嘛！現在的CPTPP，大家已經……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有啦！它是參加TPP，不是CPTPP。"],["馬委員文君：本席知道美國是參加TPP。現在是因為美國退出，所以才會由日本主導，你要說明的是這個部分，顯然你是怕面對問題。因為根據外媒的消息，臺灣在……"],["林部長佳龍：不會！我不會怕面對問題，我喜歡面對它，這樣才能解決問題啦！委員的問題，我們很誠實的回答。"],["馬委員文君：部長，本席希望你能尊重我們的質詢，我們一直很希望你可以就這個問題回答。"],["林部長佳龍：我就要回答啊！"],["馬委員文君：你剛剛回答什麼？你們編列那麼多錢，但中國一直都會是一個問題，臺灣和中國因為政治議題，所以就被擱置了。中國不會消失，所以……"],["林部長佳龍：不是擱置啦！我必須誠實的向委員說明。"],["馬委員文君：外媒就是這麼說的，你去和外媒說，不用和本席說，我們看到的就是這樣。"],["林部長佳龍：我提供正確的資訊，你又不參考。"],["馬委員文君：你提供什麼資訊？現在有被討論嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我告訴你程序是怎麼走的。"],["馬委員文君：有被討論嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["馬委員文君：如果這一次我們沒有被納入討論，甚至是被擱置，你要不要下台？"],["林部長佳龍：委員，你誤會了問題，請讓我說明，好不好？你不用……"],["馬委員文君：本席不是誤會問題，我們現在是在釐清問題。今天你當一個外交部長，卻只會宣傳你們要到立陶宛做什麼，或者到歐洲做什麼，現在我們是問關於CPTPP的問題，而且已經到了要審預算的階段，如果你用這樣的態度，本席覺得你是在敷衍我們。"],["林部長佳龍：我沒有任何不敬的態度喔！是委員比較急一點。"],["馬委員文君：本席不是急。本席剛剛是很溫和的問，這是大家關心的議題，是因為你一直輕忽我們的問題，所以會讓人家產生這樣的質疑。"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，我是很誠懇的。因為我當過立委，我也是真的很想和委員對話。"],["馬委員文君：那你可以說啊！現在就讓你說。"],["林部長佳龍：它有一個程序，要成立工作小組。我們現在也在爭取支持，大部分的國家，我們接觸時都表示支持，沒有反對的，所以有一些報導是錯誤的。至於能不能成立工作小組，因為有共識決的問題……"],["馬委員文君：哪一個報導是錯誤的？對，它就是共識決，要全部有共識支持嘛！對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：就是所謂的被擱置。加拿大今年做主……"],["馬委員文君：加拿大有討論這個案子嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：加拿大今年有一個解釋，5月提出的，就是在成立正式工作小組之前也可以諮商，現在臺灣和一半的國家做過諮商，他們都支持，可是還沒有到絕對多數。"],["馬委員文君：新加坡和馬來西亞是否支持？"],["林部長佳龍：我們不能替他們說明，但是就我得到的訊息……"],["馬委員文君：你不是和他們做過諮商嗎？現在又不能替他們說。請你告訴我們諮商的結果，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：他們沒有反對。"],["馬委員文君：有沒有支持？我們要的是支持，而不是沒有反對。他們有沒有支持？"],["林部長佳龍：在「奧克蘭三原則」的解釋下，反對者要提理由，因為他們都沒有理由，所以就是不反對。"],["馬委員文君：他們有沒有支持？"],["林部長佳龍：所謂的支持是要成立工作小組，這件事情要在大會決定，如果成立工作小組有政治的干擾，也可以做諮商。"],["馬委員文君：就加拿大的說法，他們說目前準備最充分的，其實就是臺灣和哥斯大黎加，可是哥斯大黎加已經被同意了，你覺得最大的原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：其實都被同意啦！只是我們要成立工作小組……"],["馬委員文君：臺灣有沒有被同意？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有人反對臺灣參加。"],["馬委員文君：哥斯大黎加可不可以參加？"],["林部長佳龍：它要成立工作小組這件事情……"],["馬委員文君：哥斯大黎加可不可以參加？到目前為止。"],["林部長佳龍：他們要成立工作小組去審查，就是代表……"],["馬委員文君：哥斯大黎加可不可以參加？因為就這幾個國家嘛！有提出來的。"],["林部長佳龍：都可以申請啦！要成立工作小組才可以審查。"],["馬委員文君：部長，哥斯大黎加可不可以參加？"],["林部長佳龍：都可以，都有資格去申請啦！"],["馬委員文君：它可以參加嗎？這一次到目前為止，就你得到的資訊，有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：其實參加的意思也是成立工作小組……"],["馬委員文君：因為我們有派人在CPTPP，哥斯大黎加有沒有被同意？"],["林部長佳龍：委員，現在是進行程序，還沒有進到實質審查。"],["馬委員文君：有沒有被同意？沒關係，至少他們目前已經有被討論，基本上是不是已經被同意？因為所有人都有共識，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：如果委員給我1分鐘，我給你全世界。"],["馬委員文君：你不用給本席全世界，你只要讓臺灣人有機會進入CPTPP，希望我們期待的這個目的可以達成，可是現在聽你的回答，顯然我們沒有辦法做這樣的期待。其實以本席和你的交情，或者以前對你的認識，本席不認為你會這樣說話，因為我們從來……"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！我就是我，我一向是面對問題，不會閃躲啦！"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，你就是你啦！本席也不怕你閃躲啦！因為你身為外交部長，本來就要面對問題。本席現在說的是，他們現在就是認為臺灣和中國之間有政治問題，所以我們的案子才會被擱置，這是既存的問題，但你卻不敢回答，這樣你就沒辦法繼續去處理這些事情。"],["林部長佳龍：我敢啦！你給我1分鐘，我就敢說明。"],["馬委員文君：哥斯大黎加已經達到這樣的成效，臺灣和它是一樣的，我們也準備得非常充分，可是我們沒有被同意，就是因為政治的問題，所以你必須面對問題。你是新上任的，我們本來期待你有新的作為，也可以好好地做，可是顯然並不是這樣。那1分鐘的說明，麻煩你用書面的方式向大家交代，你不用給本席全世界，麻煩你給臺灣人更大的期待和機會，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我會給委員一份書面報告，1分鐘長的書面報告。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，部長請回。"],["主席（徐委員巧芯代）：接下來請林憶君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966d990983ad1c841b5a85017ab97aa926f9bb85de07fde91d31a6072d9306be1cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:23:45 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那個春花廟很涼很熱"},{"start":30.902,"end":55.215,"text":"有沒有?你老實跟我講,不要電動。很久以前,多久以前?大概年輕的時候啊。年輕談戀愛的時候。我會講,它是全省最有名的小吃店。但是我看一個新聞,我感覺很奇妙。新竹春花廟口17家小吃聯合漲價,公平衛收違法但不法。"},{"start":59.626,"end":74.741,"text":"我覺得你這個政策對但是我感覺你們的做法你們的想法常常會改變那個小吃裡面有一個特色有肉飯、鵝、煎什麼都有它是裡面聯合他們有一個好吃為什麼"},{"start":75.882,"end":93.91,"text":"我們價格都一樣,客人誰要去哪一家,大家自由去,就不去競爭,不去在裡面整個審查混淆掉,你們要知道地方有這個特色,所以去那邊大家不會為了生意而在爭吵,而是和和氣氣的。"},{"start":95.751,"end":116.184,"text":"您說漲價就是聯合的行為,燒土腳也要轉為人,一個管理委員會在那邊燒料,把市場維持得乾乾淨淨清清潔淨還做好服務,現在水電帳什麼都漲了,我感覺您把這個小事當作大事在辦,真的是資源運用錯了。"},{"start":117.867,"end":142.623,"text":"我希望這點你們要好好想,你們是沒事情做,吃飽養養的專門做這些事情來做我看是這樣啦,改進改進,你們有很多做法,其實剛剛那個王偉講的也有道理第二個,以前你們處理一個案件,多層次的行銷"},{"start":144.449,"end":160.967,"text":"結果被你們公平交易會去檢調會再調查調查現在的結果都是順勢結果那家公司倒了才又再重新再起銀行都不跟他配合說以前有這樣的案件打了8年"},{"start":162.572,"end":182.082,"text":"讓一家公司倒閉掉啊你們完全沒有責任那一直來拜託我會每一家每一家銀行去拜託銀行都說不肯啊這樣子來因為利潤的不好但是他這個是一個社會公益的一個行為啊他現在要東山再起沒有人來"},{"start":183.163,"end":209.449,"text":"要去幫忙他,這樣注意,你跟我來協調一下,跟銀行叫來你注意,你們跟人家檢舉已經發生錯誤,業者失敗了要打國家賠償法又太久了好不好,我們兩個一直聯手來拜託銀行看你能不能做得到,錯是在你們那邊,這樣沒接應,要一間公司對應我覺得吼,我們的政府不值得一個信任"},{"start":210.829,"end":229.696,"text":"從常常要安排失責事,導致民間的企業倒閉,已經沒有辦法再重新開張,遭到很多的困難。我希望我們共同來解決,我會特別找你一起處理。第三個,您有一篇文章說,企業變貨成為趨勢,將為競爭法、執法帶來挑戰。"},{"start":235.678,"end":255.055,"text":"我來說現在電子企業台灣都是中小企業這方面你好好注意外國不要注意台灣的企業台灣的企業太小常常被外國企業所欺負尤其現在的電子產業整個情形每一個人發展不一樣"},{"start":256.571,"end":271.799,"text":"兵貨有時候才會大,大才跟國外有競爭。你在怕台灣的企業太大,他這個沒有獨攬的行為。每一個企業都在做,我希望先確立這樣的一個觀念好不好。再來今天最熱門的,"},{"start":273.34,"end":297.962,"text":"就是關於Uber跟Penta那個外送平臺那我給你一個資料看一看給你深思熟慮一下考慮一下在7月18號工商時報裡面有一篇文章第一個新加坡政府態度強硬外送平臺終止合併談判"},{"start":300.441,"end":325.169,"text":"這個在工商時報7月18號那在沙國就是沙烏地阿拉伯火診外送平台之申請以確保市場的競爭就是不同意合併再來一個香港外送市場因為新加熱者重新有熱絡的狀況"},{"start":327.574,"end":349.997,"text":"那我為什麼這個給你參考剛剛王委員在談到說人事綁架這個確實是分開但是你覺得你們很獨立的在公平交易委員會在獨立審判嗎高通的案件委員通過托拉斯法案要把他罰了7億多已經裁決出來了最後"},{"start":351.294,"end":374.347,"text":"你們腳踩台灣碰到美國碰到日本碰到歐洲你們從來都沒有腳踩得很順都腰都彎下來了變成去投資投資7億7億多少台幣200多億台幣7億剛好公研院一年的預算你們這樣做下去這個政府這樣做下去他有多偉大"},{"start":377.796,"end":380.279,"text":"臺灣的電子業打得東倒西歪大家都要聽他的你們都不敢講話所以我不敢信賴這個政府就是這樣一個應該要"},{"start":401.994,"end":411.189,"text":"財閥要來賠償了你們把它變成收改為去投資那我這個政府所以關於這個外送平台業者消費者"},{"start":413.782,"end":440.038,"text":"還有那個外送人工會都反對其實到這個時候其實很明顯啊外國人要求台灣很簡單你給他合併他給你起價你就給他起價尤其是澳洲尤其是美國尤其是日本的你們連屁聲都不敢放所以我們不怎麼相信看了那麼久你敢去找台灣人的麻煩外國人的麻煩你就不敢找啊"},{"start":442.164,"end":469.612,"text":"檢討一下好好考慮我為什麼拿高通起手有沒有我很自信我判斷你們最後會通過你們在國外的壓力下我們審理個案一定是照個案來判斷不會有這個本國人外國人不同的主意看最後的結果就曉得啦不然你請我一餐我請你一餐嘛我對這個不信賴我是以這樣的來跟你這種是嚴重的警告"},{"start":470.66,"end":477.371,"text":"好不好那個獨到歐美人從來不會照顧臺灣人只有在這邊奪取利益而已謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":894,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時23分）主席好，首先有請公平交易委員會李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：主委好。主委，你去過新竹市嗎？有去城隍廟拜拜嗎？那個城隍廟很靈驗喔！有沒有？請你老實跟我講，不要只是點頭。"],["李主任委員鎂：很久以前去過。"],["陳委員超明：多久以前？"],["李主任委員鎂：大概是年輕的時候。"],["陳委員超明：年輕談戀愛的時候。我告訴你，那邊有全省最有名的小吃店，但是本席有看到一個新聞，覺得很奇妙，新竹城隍廟口17家小吃聯合漲價，公平會說違法，但不罰，你們這個政策是對的，但是本席覺得你們的做法、想法常常改變。那裡的小吃有一個特色，不管是滷肉飯、蚵仔煎等等，裡面什麼都有。那裡有一個好處，為什麼？因為價格都一樣，客人可以自由選擇想要去哪一家，這樣大家就不會競爭，整個市場也不會混亂，因為有這樣的地方特色，所以大家不會為了生意爭吵，都是和和氣氣的。","你們說他們漲價就是聯合行為，但是他們需要僱專人掃地，管理委員會在那邊照料，把市場維持得乾淨、整潔，還做好服務，而且現在水電等等都漲了。我覺得你們是把小事當大事在辦，資源真的運用錯了，我希望這一點你們要好好想。你們是沒事情做了，吃飽閒閒，專門找事來做嗎？我覺得應該是這樣，要改進、改進所以你們很多做法，剛剛王鴻薇委員說的也有道理。","第二個，以前你們處理過一個案件，就是多層次傳銷，公平交易委員會、檢調介入調查，結果都是那家公司勝訴，但是那家公司卻倒了，當他想要東山再起時，銀行卻不和他配合。以前曾發生過這樣的案件，一個案子打了8年，結果讓一家公司倒閉，難道你們完全沒有責任？他一直來拜託本席，本席也幫忙去每一家銀行拜託，但是銀行都不肯合作，因為利潤很薄。這是一個社會公益行為，他現在想要東山再起，但是沒有人肯幫忙，主委，請你和本席一起去協調向銀行借錢。","當時你們收到檢舉案，結果發現檢舉內容是錯誤的，業者是對的，如果聲請國家賠償，又太久了。我們兩個一起聯手去拜託銀行，你能不能做到？因為錯在你們這邊，結果你們沒有責任，卻害那家公司倒閉，讓本席覺得政府不值得信任。你們經常這樣做事，導致民間企業倒閉，現在他要重新開張卻遇到很多困難，我希望我們能共同解決，我會特別找你一起去處理。","第三個，你有一篇文章說到企業併購成為趨勢，將為競爭法執法帶來挑戰。我告訴你，現在臺灣的電子企業都是中小企業，針對這方面，你們要好好注意外國的狀況，不要只注意臺灣的企業，因為臺灣的企業太小，常常被外國企業欺負。尤其是現在的電子產業，每個發展不一樣，有時候透過併購，規模才會變大，規模變大才能和國外競爭。你們怕臺灣的企業太大，但其實他們並沒有獨攬的行為，因為每一個企業都在做，本席希望先確立這樣的觀念，好不好？","再來，今天最熱門的就是關於Uber Eats和foodpanda外送平臺的事情，本席給你看一份資料，請你深思熟慮，好好考慮。7月18日工商時報有一篇文章提到，第一個，新加坡政府態度強硬，外送平臺終止合併談判；在沙國，就是沙烏地阿拉伯，核准外送平臺之申請，以確保市場競爭，但是不同意合併；再來，香港外送市場因為新加入者，重新有熱絡的狀況。本席為什麼舉這些例子給你參考？剛剛王委員有談到人事綁架，希望兩者要確實分開，但是你認為公平交易委員會是獨立審判。","就像高通的案件，委員會以壟斷為由裁罰他們七億多美元，裁決已經出來了，但是說真的，臺灣只要碰到美國、日本、歐洲，你們從來沒有抬頭挺胸過，腰都彎下來了，和高通和解之後，最後就是他們只要投資7億美元就好。7億美元是多少臺幣？二百多億元臺幣。7億美元剛好是工研院一年的預算，這樣你們也做得下去？這個政府竟然做得下去！它有多偉大？工研院平常節省經費進行研發工作，他們一年的預算，你們就這樣送給高通，讓他們增加人事費用吸引人才，把臺灣的電子業打得東倒西歪，大家都要聽它的，你們卻不敢說話。所以我不信任這個政府就是因為這樣，本來應該要裁罰、賠償，你們卻把它改為投資，怎麼會有這樣的政府？","所以外送平臺業者、消費者，還有外送員工會都反對，到了這個時候，其實趨勢已經很明顯。外國人想欺負臺灣人很簡單，你們只要一同意他們合併，他們說漲價就漲價，尤其是歐洲、美國、日本的企業，你們連屁都不敢放，所以我們不怎麼相信政府，因為看了那麼多案例，你們只會找臺灣人的麻煩。"],["李主任委員鎂：本國人、外國人……"],["陳委員超明：因為你們不敢找外國人的麻煩。你們要檢討一下，好好考慮。本席為什麼舉高通為例？因為我很自信，我判斷在國外的壓力下，你們最後還是會同意，因為臺灣從來沒有抬起頭。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，我們審理個案一定是照個案判斷，不會對本國人、外國人有不同的處理。"],["陳委員超明：好啦！我們來賭一下，沒有關係啦！看最後結果就曉得了，不然我請你一餐，或是你請我一餐嘛！我不信任你們，所以以這個個案為例嚴重警告你們，那些獨大的歐美企業從來不會照顧臺灣人，只有來這邊奪取利益而已，謝謝。"],["主席：請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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:"好 那就陳如本席前面有提到的就是說我們要讓科研成果普及這是我們的共識那譬如說讓運科技術投入這個校隊的訓練或者是說讓運動傷害防護的課程進入社區那目前這樣的規劃有沒有可以再詳細說一點"},{"start":268.905,"end":272.006,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委。第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委。"},{"start":284.191,"end":308.319,"text":"那我想再來跟您討論就是職場霸凌防治的問題因為這個問題不分場域都應該嚴加來重視那甚至在前天考試院政府院長提名人的審查諮詢中各黨派都很關注說未來公務體系的霸凌的防治那我們有看見國科會在今年11月22號有更新國科會內部的職場霸凌防治及處理作業要點"},{"start":309.239,"end":328.339,"text":"那明定說國科會內部的職場霸凌申訴的程序跟評議會的組成可是有關於霸凌的防治我們有沒有辦法把這個範圍擴大到國科會的計畫主持人那去年11月國科會有修正發布說國科會補助專題研究計畫作業要點"},{"start":329.58,"end":330.701,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":349.112,"end":366.088,"text":"是否可以比照行政院或文化部來追回獎項跟補助所以請教主委既然國科會的計畫主持人若涉性平案件確定那有終止補助這樣的一個處分規範那針對這個霸凌房子的部分是否也可以來研議"},{"start":368.951,"end":379.66,"text":"委員這個意見非常的好,我們目前並沒有針對計畫主持人,因為他的工作的場合是有他自己的單位在。但是因為他執行國會的計畫,所以將來我們會研議看看怎麼樣來督促執行計畫的機關單位。"},{"start":390.208,"end":390.829,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":412.648,"end":432.985,"text":"讓這些漏洞越來越少接下來想跟主委討論AI在公部門應用的幾個問題首先是資安的問題行政院今年有公告將全文修正資通安全管理法舊修正寫入公務機關不得下載"},{"start":434.246,"end":447.232,"text":"安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品的條文AI是一個非常便利而且又相對危險的工具便利又危險所以國科會作為AI基本法主要的主則機關如何引領公部門在正確又不危害國家資訊的情況之下來使用AI我想這個變得非常非常的重要"},{"start":460.217,"end":480.569,"text":"那雖然目前自通安全管理法修正草案還在審議還待審議可是無庸置疑的AI應在公務人員被安全的使用所以想要請教主委是說目前國會有什麼樣相關的配套跟指引嗎那政府機關使用AI應該追尋的大方向跟原則是什麼"},{"start":481.803,"end":502.69,"text":"謝謝委員這的確非常重要國會負責AI基本法的制定那這個過程當中我們也在協調相關的部會來做這個作用法跟指引那有關委員提到這個我們公部門使用AI的這個相關安全的準則現在數位發展部正在制定年底前會完成是謝謝委員"},{"start":503.61,"end":506.371,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":722,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時22分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委好。體育跟運動都是今年相當熱門的關鍵字，臺灣國家隊特別在十二強表現優異，賴總統跟行政院也在積極推動運動部的成立；吳主委曾經擔任過運科中心的董事長，應該深知運動科學對於選手的助益。上一次在質詢國科會的時候，本席就曾問過運動科學普惠全民這個議題，主委也相當認同這個政策的重要。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是非常認同。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以，除了全民共享運動科研的果實，也可以帶動相關產業的發展還有經濟效益。在運動部組織法相關的草案中，運動部轄下要設一個全民運動署，它的設立宗旨就是在辦理全民運動全民化跟社區化的發展，也要促進競技運動全民化，由此可見，運動風氣的普及化，真的是我們國家重要的發展目標；其他部會也都有跟運動部合作發展的空間。","目前含國科會有五個部會──國科會、經濟部、教育部、衛福部、數發部，共同規劃推動運動科技應用與產業發展計畫，現已進入第二期的專案計畫，共補助12個研究團隊，涵蓋10個運動項目。在這個計畫中有發展新技術跟新應用，要帶動臺灣運科產業跟提升全民運動的健康；國家科學技術發展基金的預算當中，也有一個計畫要投入運動科技的研發跟應用。我想請教主委，接下來幾期的專案計畫中，我們預計還會投入什麼樣的項目關於運動科學技術研發？有沒有開發協助身心障礙選手相關的運動科技？還有，會透過什麼樣的方式來加強未來運動部跟院校的合作？"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員剛剛提到的都非常好，在國科會主政的各個處裡面，我們的人文處執行精準運動科學計畫，已經到了第二期；還有我們的產學處也投入運動科技，把科技研發的成果跟運動的這個產業結合在一起，我們都在積極推動當中。剛剛林委員提到，我們有運動科學中心，目前是在教育部下面，將來運動部成立以後，會移到這個運動部，連著國家運動訓練中心，這邊可以直接接觸到我們頂尖的運動選手，將來把這個科技研發的成果，也擴散到我們一般休閒運動、全民運動的這個領域，促進這個產業發展，這個時候我們運動部的全民運動署就要扮演很重要的角色。科技部和我們國科會的這個科技成果，會協助產業利用科技來推動全民運動。所以頂尖選手運動表現的促進及運動傷害的防止、修護等，還有全民運動的推展、運動科技產業的發展，國科會的科技預算都會去支持。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，剛剛有問到會不會開發協助身心障礙選手的運動科技？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有關身心障礙選手運動科技，我們人文處一定會把它放到項目裡面。剛剛吳春城委員也特別提到高齡者的運動，我們也很重視，也會把它放進來。"],["林委員宜瑾：誠如本席前面所提到的，我們要讓科研成果普及，這是我們的共識，譬如讓運科技術投入校隊的訓練，或是讓運動傷害防護的課程進入社區，目前這樣的規劃可以再說得詳細一點嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：全民運動部分目前是體育署的主政項目，它也在運動科技方案裡面，我們有支持，將來歸到運動部就是全民運動署，這部分我們會持續來支持。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK。我想再來跟您討論職場霸凌防治的問題，因為這個問題不分場域，都應該嚴加重視；甚至在前天考試院正副院長被提名人的審查質詢中，各黨派都很關注，未來公務體系的霸凌防治。我們也看見國科會在今年11月22日更新了國科會內部的職場霸凌防治及處理作業要點，明定國科會內部職場霸凌申訴的程序跟評議會的組成；可是對霸凌的防治，我們有沒有辦法把這個範圍擴大到國科會的計畫主持人？去年11月國科會也修正發布國科會補助專題研究計畫作業要點，明定計畫主持人如果違反性平案件，並經主管機關查證屬實，會依照情節輕重，終止這個補助。陳培瑜委員也有質詢過，針對其他國科會獎項獲獎人，如果發生一些性平案件確定者，是否可以比照行政院或文化部的作法追回獎項跟補助？請教主委，如果國科會的計畫主持人涉性平案件確定，我們有終止補助這樣的處分規範嗎？針對這個霸凌防治的部分，是否也可以來研議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員這個意見非常好，我們目前並沒有針對計畫主持人，因為他的工作場合有他自己的單位在。"],["林委員宜瑾：沒錯，可是他拿了國科會的補助。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為他執行國科會計畫，所以將來我們會研議，看看怎麼樣來督促執行計畫的機關、單位要遵照我們的這種規範，比照這個規範來執行，出了事情，也要通報到國科會來，我們才有辦法做處置。這一點很謝謝委員的提醒，我們會來研議這方面的機制。"],["林委員宜瑾：期待能把這個機制弄得嚴密一點，讓這個漏洞越來越少。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：接下來想跟主委討論，AI在公部門應用的幾個問題。首先是資安的問題，因為行政院今年有公告將全文修正資通安全管理法，在修正文字中寫入公務機關不得下載、安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品的條文。AI是一個非常便利又相對危險的工具，便利又危險，國科會作為AI基本法的主責機關，如何引領公部門在正確又不危害國家資訊的情況下使用AI，就顯得非常非常的重要。雖然資通安全管理法修正草案目前還待審議，可是無庸置疑的，AI應在公務人員被安全的使用，所以想要請教主委，目前國科會有什麼樣相關的配套跟指引嗎？政府機關使用AI應該遵循的大方向跟原則是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這的確非常重要，國科會負責AI基本法的制定，這個過程當中，我們也在協調相關的部會來做作用法跟指引。有關委員提到我們公部門使用AI相關安全的準則，現在數位發展部正在制定，年底前會完成，謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：我想現在我們應該還是要進行所有政府會如何使用AI的盤點，因為時間關係，可不可以給本席一份相關的報告？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒問題。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員，主委請回座。","接下來我們有請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢。關於今天會議，我們作成如下的決議：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案、行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案、國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預算案、行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案、行政法人國家太空中心預算案，相關提案請於12月5號下午2點前提出，另定期繼續審查。","報告委員會，今天的議程處理完畢，現在散會，謝謝各位。","散會（11時32分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157615","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966671bc8f2c5286bf6a85017ab97aa926f9bb85de07fde91d38dabc12a4db4132a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:17:03 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Eats跟foodpanda合併案的最後准駁期限是幾月幾號？"],["李主任委員鎂：12月19日，必要時候可以延長。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，12月19號，必要時延長，一延長的話，最長可以到明年的3月，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：3月21號。"],["王委員鴻薇：3月的時候，主委還在任上嗎？不一定，對不對？因為你的任期在1月底截止。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要看整個審查的結果。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，要看立法院。我直接打開天窗說亮話，以這一件的合併案，到目前為止我們所關心的三大面向的權益，包含消費者、包含外送員、包含商家，這三方到目前為止我們還沒看到哪一方同意合併，欣然同意、覺得好棒棒。你可以看到民調也好或者說法也好，大部分都是反對這個合併案。","剛才主委說公平會是委員制，沒有錯，我們也尊重委員會的決議，但是既然這個期限是在12月19號，以現在方方面面的反映來說，公平會都沒有任何的理由再做延期，我直接說，公平會不要再用任何的理由來做延期。我講了，因為現在你們正好換屆，主委應該還有幾位委員都是在1月31號任滿，所以你們應該在12月19號作成准駁的決議，比如說其實在立法院裡面，包含卓榮泰院長還有現在下臺的何佩珊部長，因為他是勞動部，都已經表示反對的意思，當然他們還是要去尊重公平會最後的決議。","所以我在這邊直接說，應該作的決定，這個是顯而易見的，沒有看到哪一方面覺得因此而得利，可能都會因此而受害，因此公平會應該本於職權，在12月19號到期之前應該作出准駁的決定，不要再用任何理由來延長，我覺得如果再有任何理由延長，可能是因為和你們的利益結合，因為你們是到1月底結束。不要用這個方式綁架未來立法院審核人事一定要配合這個案子，因為這個案子社會矚目。","還有，也要直接告訴主委，如果公平會不在12月19日的法定期限做出准駁的話，因為我們覺得你們再給它延長的做法很奇怪。這次公平會的人事案資料有一大本，但是就本席看起來，你們很多人還是續任，而且大部分都有一定的專長，可是如果這個案子違反社會期待，違反現在呈現出來的所有面向，包括大家擔心的副作用，對不起，你們的新人事案，我們就礙難同意了。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們審查任何一個案件，不會有綁架其他事情的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然不能啊！所以這個案子……"],["李主任委員鎂：所以我們也不會因為人事案做不同的考量，我們是本於專業審查這個案件。"],["王委員鴻薇：太好了！所以這個案子有必要再延長嗎？延長要幹嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果要延長的話必須經過委員會，視案情有無必要。"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在看不出任何必要性啊！有什麼必要性呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為這個案子要經過委員會討論有沒有任何需要進一步了解的地方，我們做任何行政處分已經非常周延。"],["王委員鴻薇：所有的面向都要看到，事實上外送員已經很明確表達反對之意，至於消費者，本席真的沒有看到哪個人支持，對不對？商家也認為這樣對他們的權益沒有任何幫助，請問你們為什麼延長？我在這邊直接說，當然，我尊重公平會委員的合議制，但是這個案子是社會各界關切的，而且顯而易見，你們的任期1月31日馬上就要屆滿。","其實你們現在就和NCC一樣，我們並沒有動相關的組織法，但你們和NCC一樣，如果新的委員沒有就任的話，現任的委員可以繼續做下去。但是公平會和NCC不一樣啦！我們不會針對你們的新人事案，因為NCC實在是太爛了，我覺得公平會過去也有自已的把關，所以我們還是會有一定的尊重。但是如果這個案子到了12月19日，你們還是用任何理由給它延長，對不起，我們真的會覺得你們是用這個案子來綁架人事案。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，人事案和個案的審查是兩回事，公共政策的討論和個案審查是不同的事情，我們還是要回到個案，由委員獨立審查，絕對不會去綁架人事案的審查，這是兩件事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你們最好有這樣的認知。所以我在這邊直接要求，我不是問你，我直接要求12月19日，這是法定期限，並沒有讓你們提前，你們要在法定期限做出准駁，不要讓這個案子繼續造成社會各界的疑慮，這是直接的要求，並不是建議，也不是詢問，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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小企業尤其在傳統產業的領域這是我們的根本這是我們的基礎根本那怎麼做呢"},{"start":209.744,"end":231.106,"text":"好,我們明年開始發展第一主權的AI以後我們會希望在需求端也就是要使用AI的這些產業能夠加緊我們跟經濟部跟數位發展部來共同來合作來補助我們要用這些AI的這個工具AI的應用服務的這些產商我們也可以補助他"},{"start":231.747,"end":235.068,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":253.192,"end":269.359,"text":"最後一個議題也就是英國阿斯福的insights對每一年各國的AI的準確度有經過的準備程度來進行評比。它的內容當然包括了政府技術以及數據還有基礎設施這三項是重點。"},{"start":273.241,"end":276.603,"text":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委第3、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":296.576,"end":303.599,"text":"及中國大陸政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":325.989,"end":330.793,"text":"報告委員,我們開始編列AI的預算,就是剛剛委員有提到2018年開始,兩個計畫,到明年的114年,這個算力的建置就會快速的提升了"},{"start":343.604,"end":349.907,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":362.193,"end":365.255,"text":"但是當他們所討論的這個面向以及他們的指標我們還是要與時俱進的跟整個國際來接軌因為台灣這麼好怎麼可能會從這個111年的14名然後到112年驟降到19名這是我們不樂見看到的對不對好我們會努力謝謝委員好加油好謝謝楊先生"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時15分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主委。"],["主席：好，吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好。上週在日經亞洲刊出了主委的獨家專訪，你也特別說政府接下來每一年要編列300億，大概是每年10億的美金來推動人工智慧AI資料中心跟相關的發展，政府也打算要加強AI資料中心基礎建設，大幅提高運算能力，所以換句話說，每年預計300億，國科會你認為在目前為止，我們在AI的領域要怎麼樣？未來在1月份美國川普上任之後，我們預計會怎麼樣調整腳步跟美國合作？尤其上任之後，美國會不會施壓，要求我們分享更多的先進技術？因為這一塊在臺灣是我們非常重要的一個資產，我們政府要如何因應？請做說明。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們半導體製程先進技術一定會根留臺灣，我們先進技術的發展過程絕對是在臺灣發展，但是發展成熟以後把它變成可以量產製造，這個時候我們當然願意跟友好國家來合作，能夠擴充我們的製造領域到國外，這樣對雙方是互利的，因為第一、我們的市場拓展；第二、因為在友好國家發展、製造以後，同時也會促進我們學術合作的研究，讓我們本土技術的進展更為快速。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委你剛剛回答非常好，成熟之後，不管是產業的分享或者在學術界的分享，這都是必要做的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：重點在整個know-how是保留在臺灣。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們絕對保留在臺灣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：絕對保留在臺灣，這個是重點。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為即使我們的先進廠是在國外，我們的重要資料是不落地的，一定還是在臺灣保存。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這就是本席今天第一題提問，這非常重要，要保留在臺灣，這是主委你宣示的，我們非常高興聽到這樣的訊息，予以加油。","面對整個AI產業，我們看到不管是個人或者是企業，在擁抱AI的時代裡頭，不管是學習相關的應用技術、應用技能，學校也都在開課，教我們的孩子、教學生，我們發覺企業界導入AI的速度還是比別人慢，這怎麼辦呢？你頻頻點頭，請做說明。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以從明年編列的預算，我們會開始做主權AI的建置，主權AI建置會讓即使是中小企業沒有能力自己建資料中心……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你談到的重點也是本席非常關心的，臺灣今天之所以經濟基礎面能夠在世界發光發熱，我們的中小企業沒有功勞也有苦勞，一定要好好照顧他們。"],["吳主任委員誠文：會，我們會照顧。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以整個AI要怎麼協助我們中小企業，尤其在傳統產業的領域，這是我們的根本，這是我們的基礎根本，那怎麼做呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們明年開始發展第一主權AI以後，我們會希望在需求端，也就是要使用AI的這些產業能夠加緊，我們跟經濟部、數位發展部共同來合作，補助我們要用的這些AI工具，對於AI應用服務的這些廠商，我們也可以補助他們，我們在發展AI應用服務的時候也補助科技廠商，希望能夠把需求端跟供應端串聯起來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，主委你的回答非常好，不管是以大帶小、以同等性質的，如何去帶他們是非常重要的，我也希望你把預計要怎麼做的精準方案書面資料給本席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，英國Oxford Insights每年對各國AI準備程度進行評比，它的內容當然包括了政府、科技、數據與基礎設施，這3項是重點，總計有10個面向，39個指標。我們在110年的時候是18名，我們非常高興111年晉升4名，來到14名，但是去年我們又降下來了，從14名降到19名，在這樣的情況下，我們在亞洲地區更落後了新加坡、南韓，甚至日本及中國大陸。政府在臺灣AI行動計畫以及臺灣AI計畫2.0（2023年到2026）年，114年你準備這兩個計畫要投入700億，政府也投入了金錢，但我們的排名卻是下滑的，問題出在哪裡？要怎麼樣去調整我們的計畫，讓它是有成效的、是有效能產生的，請說明。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們開始編列AI的預算，剛剛委員有提到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2018年開始，兩個計畫到明年114……"],["吳主任委員誠文：明年開始，算力的這個建置就會快速的提升，今年上半年只有19個PetaFLOPS，明年建置完成會超過110個PetaFLOPS，四年內會將近到500個PetaFLOPS，這部分會逐步提升，所以我們預期幾年後，進到前十名是沒有問題的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有這個信心嘛！但是當他們所討論的這個面向及指標，我們還是要與時俱進的來跟國際接軌。臺灣這麼好，怎麼可能從111年的14名，112年驟降至19名，這是我們不樂意看到的，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會努力，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好的，加油。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，主委請回。接下來請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966bfa0650ceaeebc3cfde9c36da10785a79bb85de07fde91d302cda474afd28a485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:11:20 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,"text":"那而且就時間上來講跟這個路線的安排可以一次去這個訪問這三個國家而且算是鞏固邦誼再加上其實本期也特別整理了如果是以上次的話有總統出訪南泰地區也是2019年了也就是小英總統在任的時候所以說這一次包括像我們帛琉的這個會數人他在11月連任成功就像您所說的從這個"},{"start":148.62,"end":171.25,"text":"出發起程到馬紹爾、土瓦魯再到帛琉其實這個路線就是很順的那麼我們當然也希望這一次的出訪能夠成功對我們的邦誼能夠更鞏固不過呢有一個最新的訊息呢是就像我剛剛提到的這個以美論現在就算我們沒有以美但是對於川普現在上台之後包括他現在任用了一個所謂的關稅大將來擔任他的相關的這個內閣成員喔那麼"},{"start":176.352,"end":180.157,"text":"就有CNN最新今天早上更新的是說川普可能透過保護主義然後開始增加他的關稅那麼其中他會對他的貿易前十大的這些所謂國家來出手那麼"},{"start":193.214,"end":195.917,"text":"根據CNN的報告台灣也在這前十大之中那麼當然這個是屬於貿易的問題可能問經濟部會更適合可是某種程度這是不是也是台美之間在外交上必須關注的部分部長你怎麼來看"},{"start":210.292,"end":233.689,"text":"會不會接下來因為川普任用了這個他的關稅大將格里爾那麼再加上CNN的報導被台灣媒體引用了那產業界就會擔心囉目前台灣是屬於對美貿易的第六名部長您看其實台美的經貿的關係是建立在包括法治或者是透明的基礎上那"},{"start":237.178,"end":252.512,"text":"這個關稅啦或者是相關的這些貿易的逆差本來就是在國家之間啦就是他的一個政策的工具那我們怎麼去增加因為貿易逆差很大我們怎麼增加對美國的投資這個是再就採購"},{"start":253.792,"end":266.282,"text":"所以這些本來就是我們應該要做的方向所以這個大概跟川普總統上任之後更重視這方面那我們當然會在政策上我們有一些工具也會來討這個方向"},{"start":270.765,"end":292.137,"text":"有進一步的機會來跟美方來做溝通因為就像今天媒體報導的嘛因為這個總統要到南泰出訪聯合利建C也要出來了但是許多的相關的軍事或外交專家都認為其實聯合利建C對準的恐怕不只是台灣更是對美國來立威甚至對美國來展示軍事的肌肉"},{"start":292.677,"end":316.475,"text":"所以對於現在美國他所選取的內閣都是所謂的抗中大將那麼如果是站在抗中的立場來講台灣絕對是美國非常重要的一個夥伴就是如同您說的如果讓美國再次強大的話台灣不能置身事外而且台灣必須是夥伴那這個部分外交部有沒有機會跟現在川普的新內閣來針對我們所關心的安全或經貿問題來做相關的這個溝通"},{"start":320.309,"end":338.08,"text":"是有溝通我想跨黨派的那最主要是說其實我們每一次的元首出訪中共都會有一些動作那是輕重的問題那在這一個美國政府交接的期間當然北京他也必須要考慮他任何的動作的弦外之音"},{"start":340.12,"end":362.786,"text":"因為川普現在有他的一個中國政策的方向包括提高關稅甚至在選舉期間講了很重的話如果他們中共侵台的話他要轟炸北京就是說我想在這一個都不確定的階段這個充滿了各種的一個不確定那大家都是很謹慎可是"},{"start":363.772,"end":382.479,"text":"我是我們的判斷是中共還是會有動作只是說這個什麼樣的方式比如說他們每週也差不多都有這個所謂戰備警巡那只要再加強一下那就是認知作戰那有時候是基於國內的消費有時候是真的是有對台灣我們不能排除他遊訓轉戰"},{"start":383.999,"end":387.622,"text":"主要是這三個國家除了來我們臺灣參加就職典禮或是雙十國慶以外他們都是今年選上的"},{"start":406.671,"end":426.911,"text":"馬紹爾群島、海尼總統、土瓦魯總理及柏油總統今年都是一個新的開始,我們認為一次能夠三個藍太友邦做出訪的對象主題也是跟我們現在的籠幫政策有關,繁榮藍島、智慧永續"},{"start":429.093,"end":453.187,"text":"好,但是呢本席也要稍微來問一下就是我們有關於這個大家現在非常關注的是有關於聽台灣的部分那麼加強這個所謂反對2758號決議文我想這一次因為我們在12強打上了冠軍之後聽台灣成為這個不只是團結台灣啦甚至於是全球非常矚目的這個關鍵字喔那麼我們在有關於國際組織2025年我們編列了3億6900"},{"start":457.589,"end":464.356,"text":"44萬元的經費那麼在這些經費的運用上面有沒有機會讓聽台灣能夠更響亮我想現在講台灣或講聽台灣是一個共通的語言那在這裡的話外交部針對在聯合國或者是其他國際組織的經費跟運用上面有沒有想要乘勝追擊尤其是在您所提到的價值外交的部分"},{"start":483.463,"end":505.577,"text":"確實這一次我想運動選手他在得到冠軍的時候自發的去呈現就是台灣因為這是很自然的而且很中性的名稱那我們在國際上也是如此包括我們最近國際組織包括參加聯合國我們用chip in with Taiwan和台灣一起拼那這個過去也常用台灣can help"},{"start":506.557,"end":506.717,"text":"﹚林楚茵"},{"start":528.746,"end":528.966,"text":"謝謝委員提醒,我們會更加重視。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":253,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時11分）謝謝主席。主席，有請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早。知道您即將要陪賴總統出訪，不過出訪之前有許多帶風向的操作跟操弄，我延續剛剛王定宇委員所提到的，很多疑美論的聲音就會出來。關於這次出訪，我們主要是去南太國家，之前在聽到總統要去南太之後，很多疑美論或是疑賴論的訊息就開始出來了，就講說怎麼沒有過境美國的本土，因為現在媒體所曝光出來的地點可能是夏威夷或是其他地區。但是如果我們攤開這個時間表以及地圖來看的話就會發現，從臺灣出發到南太國家，假設你要特別繞到美國，我為什麼講特別繞到美國？因為那真的就是到另外一個方向跟方位去了。所以我就想問，這個到底是地理不好？還是長大了以後方向感不好？如果我們真的沒有到美國本土，只是過境其他所謂的美國境外，像夏威夷這個地方，這個可以去發酵疑美論嗎？這個部長怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：其實疑美論沒有必要，我們跟美國的關係不只是臺灣關係法等這些基礎，最主要這些年是跨黨派，而且跨行政、立法跟臺灣都很友好。關於出訪，基本上我們有對方國家的邀請、有一些重大的節慶或者是就職典禮，以今年來講，在賴總統就職典禮的時候，南太這三個國家的國家元首都有來、也有邀請，而且就時間上跟路線安排，可以一次去訪問這三個國家。"],["林委員楚茵：而且算是鞏固邦誼。再加上本席也特別整理了，如果是以上次的話，有總統出訪南太地區也是2019年了，也就是小英總統在任的時候，所以這一次包括帛琉的惠恕仁在11月連任成功，就像您所說的，從出發啟程到馬紹爾、吐瓦魯再到帛琉，其實這個路線就是很順的，我們當然也希望這一次的出訪能夠成功，對我們的邦誼能夠更鞏固。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["林委員楚茵：不過有一個最新的訊息是，就像我剛剛提到的疑美論，現在就算我們沒有疑美，但是對於川普未來上臺之後，包括他現在任用了一個所謂的關稅大將來擔任他的相關內閣成員，那麼CNN今天早上最新更新的是說，川普可能透過保護主義開始增加他的關稅，其中他會對他的貿易前十大國家出手。根據CNN的報導，臺灣也在這前十大之中，當然這個是屬於貿易的問題，可能問經濟部會更適合，可是某種程度上，這是不是也是臺美之間在外交上必須關注的部分？部長，你怎麼看？會不會接下來因為川普任用了關稅大將葛里爾，再加上CNN的報導被臺灣媒體引用了，那產業界就會擔心了，目前臺灣是屬於對美貿易的第六名，部長，你怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：其實臺美的經貿關係建立在法治、透明的基礎上，關稅或者是相關的貿易逆差本來就是國家之間的政策工具，而因為貿易逆差很大，我們怎麼增加對美國的投資，再來就是採購，這些本來就是我們應該要做的方向，所以川普總統上任之後更重視這方面，我們當然在政策上有一些工具也會朝這個方向……"],["林委員楚茵：針對現在這個訊息出來，外交部會不會有進一步的機會來跟美方溝通，就像今天媒體報導的，因為賴總統要到南太出訪，聯合利劍C也要出來了，但是許多相關的軍事或外交專家都認為，其實聯合利劍C對準的恐怕不只是臺灣，更是對美國來立威，甚至對美國展示軍事的肌肉。因此對於現在美國所選取的內閣都是所謂的抗中大將，如果是站在抗中的立場來講，臺灣絕對是美國非常重要的一個夥伴，就如同您說的，如果讓美國再次強大的話，臺灣不能置身事外，而且臺灣必須是夥伴，針對這個部分，外交部有沒有機會跟現在川普的新內閣就我們所關心的安全或經貿問題來做相關的溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：是有跨黨派的溝通。最主要是說，其實我們每一次的元首出訪，中共都會有一些動作，那是輕重的問題，在美國政府交接的期間，當然北京也必須要考慮他任何動作的弦外之音，因為川普現在有他的中國政策方向，包括提高關稅，甚至在選舉期間也講了很重的話，如果中共侵臺的話，他要轟炸北京。我想在這一個不確定的階段、充滿各種的不確定，大家都是很謹慎，我們的判斷是中共還是會有動作，只是用什麼樣的方式？比如說，他們每週也差不多都有所謂的戰備警巡，只要再加強一下就是認知作戰，有時候是基於國內的消費，有時候真的是對臺灣……我們不能排除它由訓轉戰，因為要看它的部隊集結，所以我們都會做各種情境的想定跟因應。","另外，我想補充剛剛回答委員關於我們總統出訪南太三國，這三個國家除了來臺灣參加就職典禮或是雙十國慶以外，他們都是今年選上的，包括馬紹爾群島海妮總統、吐瓦魯的總理以及帛琉的總統，其實今年都是一個新的開始，所以我們也認為一次能夠以三個南太友邦做為出訪的對象，現在主題也跟我們目前的榮邦政策有關，就是繁榮南島、智慧永續。"],["林委員楚茵：但是本席也要稍微來問一下，大家現在非常關注Team Taiwan的部分，關於加強反對第2758號決議文，我想這一次因為我們在十二強打上了冠軍之後，Team Taiwan不只是團結臺灣，甚至是全球非常矚目的關鍵字。關於國際組織部分，2025年你們編列了3億6,944萬元的經費，在這些經費運用的上面，有沒有機會能夠讓Team Taiwan更響亮？我想現在講臺灣或講Team Taiwan是一個共通的語言，在這個部分，外交部針對聯合國或者是其他國際組織的經費跟運用上面有沒有想要乘勝追擊，尤其是在您所提到的價值外交部分？"],["林部長佳龍：確實這一次運動選手在得到冠軍的時候自發地去呈現臺灣，因為這是很自然的而且很中性的名稱，我們在國際上也是如此，包括我們最近在國際組織方面，包括像參加聯合國，我們用「Chip in with Taiwan」──和臺灣一起拚，過去也常用「Taiwan Can Help」，但是我覺得關於Team Taiwan，如果大家願意加入臺灣、做一個價值同盟，針對很多國際友人或組織這樣的支持，我想這個也是我們很歡迎的。"],["林委員楚茵：本席只是利用質詢特別提醒，現在既然是預算會期，國際組織的國際參與部分也有編列預算，因為在國際賽事當中，臺灣被看見，所以延續這樣的路徑和行徑，是讓臺灣被看到的更好機會，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員的提醒，我們會更加重視。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，林部長請回。接下來請馬文君委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157612","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579665768a7dad7bd36a1768d6645aa7846739bb85de07fde91d31b51977d4a86bfe65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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end":254.895,"text":"因為原住民族綜合發展基金預定水位是100億所以撥補到105年度的時候已經滿100億的水位我看到這邊是140億"},{"start":264.131,"end":284.999,"text":"對,那個部分我們原則上是這樣子啦到105年累積增撥基金的部分是100億就是有達到100億吧對,然後我們後來又有陸陸續續那個部分都是屬於那個補助收入的部分那我再整理一下您的話也就是說增撥撥補滿100億之後"},{"start":288.2,"end":304.585,"text":"我們還是可以繼續用補助收入是的好那累計到現在是199億是那我再請教一下齁那當我們說進法補償不能用基金發是因為基金已經短處67.66億我想請主計長你說明一下這個短處67.66億是什麼意思"},{"start":313.066,"end":339.34,"text":"一般就是說我們當年度的一個收入和支出如果收支不能相抵它就會出現當年度會有短促的現象那這種就會累總到基金的一個餘額去那因為我們基金餘額總共是100億所以目前來講的話它是67億但是整個基金總數它還有剩餘還有30幾億的一個餘額所以如果要付淨化補償是夠的是足夠支應的"},{"start":340.742,"end":348.037,"text":"所以我整理您的話所謂的短處67.66億是指當年度的收跟入"},{"start":350.495,"end":371.368,"text":"以我們原民會的基金的使用大部分是拿去做貸款的發放絕大部分所以他每一年度發去做貸款的很多但是收回來的很少是這個意思嗎請問我們原民會的貸款預放比現在已經來到多少"},{"start":377.321,"end":400.767,"text":"已經有降低了以往是比較已經降低到本來是12.8現在已經降低到6.55了所以我們其實逐年在改善已經在改善了嘛我知道的是曾經高達到20嘛現在已經逐年逐年去年十幾今年已經6.7嗎6.55那改善得非常好啊"},{"start":402.669,"end":416.329,"text":"這個部分我還是要請主計長說明那如果我們提到你剛剛已經解釋什麼叫做短處就是當年度的收根入那會因為基金短處就無法辦理這個基金的業務了嗎?"},{"start":417.51,"end":434.867,"text":"因為你要看累積所以累積我本身當初播100億的一個基金的總額那累積它目前67的一個短數它每一年會逐漸累積然後這樣子相抵之後我還有30幾億那再請教現在我們很高興"},{"start":437.504,"end":463.88,"text":"過去是公務加基金那大家不滿意全數以後用公務預算編我們也很高興但是請教一下主計長全部用公務預算編那最終也是要回到基金去發嗎是是所以因為就是因為這樣我們以往都是透過基金來發放然後都是當作補助收入撥到基金去然後由基金整個發放那可以不回到基金發嗎"},{"start":465.68,"end":493.942,"text":"也是可以啦!也是可以啦!那會有什麼影響?現在就是這樣子啦!譬如說因為如果說它本身每一年面積會有一些增減那你如果在基金裡面它的彈性比較大但是在公共預算裡面它的彈性就比較小所以您的意思是說基金的好處是有彈性而且可以隨時撥補而且可以拿去投資"},{"start":495.647,"end":513.956,"text":"投資到沒有啦因為他這裡面就是幾個幾個就是一個就是進華補償嘛那一個就是一個貸款的一個部分所以我們的重發基金這些錢還沒有撥補進來的時候補助進來的時候其實並沒有拿去做投資"},{"start":515.441,"end":532.704,"text":"目前沒有做投資那再請教一下喔那如果說我們的重發基金他有很多使用的項目我們再發這個進法補償金他會去影響其他既有的其他的項目嗎"},{"start":534.236,"end":559.73,"text":"應該不會他不會因為年度的短促因為他基金現在還有一個所以基金他有單獨的一個補助收入的來源他做他的事他不會去影響原來基金那些要做的事情不會好那我就要問了那我們自從有了財政紀律法之後他有提到第7條"},{"start":561.92,"end":575.037,"text":"不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障那對於這個部分不曉得我們之前的花東基金、離島基金他們目前的狀況如何"},{"start":576.219,"end":604.156,"text":"他們現在以前都是有限定說要到金額多少但是每一年他逐漸都會使用掉會基金逐漸減少那但是我們每一年都依照實際的需求去做編列而沒有說像給他撥補一定的額度說要多少因為這樣子的話我是有點浪費公家的一個財源因為為什麼因為我要去擠債他的利息是比那個還要高所以我這個部分所以主計長您的意思是說"},{"start":605.197,"end":611.837,"text":"有了財政紀律法之後這個花東離島基金它也是用補助收入的方式進來"},{"start":613.287,"end":641.649,"text":"我們一般都是編列不一定說是補助收入就是循預算程序循預算程序來撥補那撥補讓他去做運用是這樣子好那我在這邊最後就是停留因為很多人說短處的原因就是禁法補償因為發放禁法補償所以導致重發基金短處所以呢我們不應該"},{"start":643.007,"end":655.833,"text":"去投獲我們的基金來發放淨法補償那現在我們看到有一個主決議就是要求分3年去把這個短處的67.66億補回來那我不曉得說主計長您對這樣的一個看法"},{"start":663.015,"end":664.457,"text":"總而言之我只是提醒我們的主計總處"},{"start":682.719,"end":697.575,"text":"其實我們很多的政策、很多的議題跑出來的時候其實我們也有負擔社會教育的責任畢竟我們不是每個人都是專家這麼了解財政"},{"start":698.636,"end":724.307,"text":"這麼了解基金所以我們很希望我們站在質詢台上也好或者是我們在做政策的說明也好我們應該要能夠撥亂反正提供正確的訊息給予解決的方向那我們的目的其實並無二致我們都是希望解決問題但是在這個當中我希望我們的主計總處能夠好好的"},{"start":724.667,"end":725.148,"text":"主席主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：好，請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主計長您好。這個預算會期禁伐補償是一個非常熱門的討論議題，可能過去沒有人知道什麼是禁伐補償，除了一些原住民朋友，更沒有人知道什麼叫做原民會裡面的原住民族綜合發展基金，所以在這一次的預算會期引發很多的討論，甚至可以說是基金之亂，但是也很好，就是大家可以有機會好好地上一課，到底什麼是基金？什麼是禁伐補償？但是我還是要強烈地去表達，在這個過程當中，我們看不到原民會作為一個目的事業主管機關，或者是主計總處去強而有力、能夠很即時地做出清楚的回應，我覺得這個部分，是我在這一次看到需要來好好加強的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我今天也要在這個地方請教一下，因為在11月25號內政委員會原民會的預算審查中，有委員提到這樣的一段話：「我們的政府105年有撥給基金以後，106到114年都沒有撥給，所以我們在談禁伐補償不能使用基金來發是因為我們看到基金已經短絀67.66億……因此禁伐補償全部要由公務預算來編列了。」如果就這段話來看，我們來看一個表格，這個表格是我跟主計總處索資的，確實，我們看一下，在增撥基金這個地方，從開始有綜發基金，97年度一直到105年度，我們可以看到106之後增撥基金是空白的，以至於我們可以聽到有委員說：「106到114都沒有撥，所以我們禁伐補償不能使用基金發，是因為已經短絀了。」好，可是我們看它的另外一行，補助收入的部分，從97年度一直到113年度，每一年都有補助收入到基金，所以我想請教主計長，這個增撥基金為什麼到105之後就沒有，什麼原因？請你說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為當初是有說要擴大規模，逐年編到100億，所以我們就撥到100億，到105年就撥了100億，讓這整個基金去運作、運用，如果將來運用結果是剩下，譬如說有不足的部分，像很多的基金也都是這樣的一個狀況，我們逐年再去做撥補，所以現在如果以禁伐補償的部分來說，就是剛剛有一個補助收入的部分，我們就透過補助收入這樣子的一個方式來做禁伐補償金額的一個……所以它也是透過基金來轉發這樣子的禁伐補償。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以我整理一下主計長您說的，因為原住民族綜合發展基金預定水位是100億，所以撥補到105年度的時候，已經滿100億的水位，我看到這邊是141億。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，那個部分我們原則上是這樣子，到105年累積增撥基金的部分是100億。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是有達到100億吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，然後我們後來陸陸續續……那個部分都是屬於補助收入。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我再整理一下您的話，也就是說增撥撥補滿100億之後，我們還是可以繼續用補助收入？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，累計到現在是199億，那我再請教一下，當我們說禁伐補償不能用基金發，是因為基金已經短絀67.66億，我想請主計長說明一下，這個短絀67.66億是什麼意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般就是我們當年度的收入和支出，如果收支不能相抵，當年度就會出現短絀的現象，這種就會累總到基金的餘額去，因為我們基金餘額總共是100億，所以目前來講的話它是67億，但是整個基金總數還有賸餘，還有三十幾億的餘額，所以如果要付禁伐補償是夠的，是足夠支應的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我整理您的話，所謂的短絀67.66億，是指當年度的收跟入？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，在累積……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，以我們原民會基金的使用，大部分是拿去做貸款的發放嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：絕大部分嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以它每一年度發去做貸款的很多，但是收回來的很少，是這個意思嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，有時候貸款沒有辦法……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請問我們原民會的貸款逾放比現在已經來到多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經有降低了，以往是比較……本來是12.8，現在已經降低到6.55了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們其實逐年已經在改善了嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我知道的是曾經高達到20，現在已經逐年……去年十幾，今年已經6.7嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：6.55。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那改善得非常好啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個部分我還是要請主計長說明，你剛剛已經解釋什麼叫做短絀，就是當年度的收跟入，那會因為基金短絀就無法辦理基金的業務了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會，因為要看累積啦！當初撥100億的基金總額，目前累積67億的短絀，它每一年會逐漸累積，然後這樣子相抵之後，還有三十幾億。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那再請教，現在我們很高興，過去是公務加基金，大家不滿意，以後全數用公務預算編，我們也很高興，但是請教一下主計長，全部用公務預算編，最終也是要回到基金去發嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是，就是因為這樣，我們以往都是透過基金來發放，然後都是當作補助收入撥到基金去，然後由基金整個發放。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那可以不回到基金發嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：也是可以啦！也是可以啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那會有什麼影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在就是這樣子，因為它本身每一年面積會有一些增減，如果在基金裡面它的彈性比較大，但是在公務預算裡面它的彈性比較小。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以您的意思是基金的好處是有彈性，而且可以隨時撥補……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：而且可以拿去投資？"],["陳主計長淑姿：投資倒沒有啦！因為這裡面就是幾個，一個是禁伐補償，另一個是貸款的部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們綜發基金這些錢還沒有撥補進來的時候，補助進來的時候，其實並沒有拿去做投資？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前沒有做投資。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，再請教一下，如果我們的綜發基金有很多使用的項目，我們發禁伐補償金會去影響既有的其他的項目嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該不會，因為基金現在還有餘額……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以基金有單獨的補助收入來源，它做它的事，不會去影響原來基金那些要做的事情？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我就要問了，我們自從有了財政紀律法之後，第七條有提到不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障，對於這個部分，不曉得之前的花東基金、離島基金，他們目前的狀況如何？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他們以前都有限定說要到金額多少，但是每一年它逐漸都會使用掉，基金會逐漸減少，但是我們每一年都依照實際的需求去做編列，沒有給它撥補一定的額度說要多少，因為這樣子的話，是有點浪費公家的財源，為什麼？因為我要去舉債，它的利息是比那個還要高，所以這個部分我是覺得……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以主計長您的意思是說，有了財政紀律法之後，花東離島基金也是用補助收入的方式進來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們一般都是編列，不一定是補助收入……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是循預算程序。"],["陳主計長淑姿：循預算程序來撥補，撥補讓它去做運用，是這樣子。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我最後在這邊停留，因為很多人說短絀的原因就是禁伐補償，因為發放禁伐補償，所以導致綜發基金短絀，所以我們不應該透過我們的基金來發放禁伐補償。現在我們看到有一個主決議，要求分3年去把這個短絀的67.66億補回來，我不曉得主計長您對這樣的看法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一個，這個要補也是看事實的需求，我們儘量來協助，但是是不是能夠這樣，因為我們還必須去看115年度整個的財源狀況，我們儘量來協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，總而言之，我只是要提醒主計總處，很多的政策、很多的議題跑出來的時候，其實我們也有負擔社會教育的責任，畢竟不是每個人都是專家，這麼了解財政、這麼了解基金，所以我們很希望站在質詢臺上也好，或者是在做政策的說明也好，我們應該要能夠撥亂反正，提供正確的訊息，給予解決的方向，我們的目的其實並無二致，都是希望解決問題，但是在這個當中，我希望主計總處能夠好好的發揮導正的角色，主計長可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我儘量。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望未來站在第一線上，我們都要做好這個角色。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主計長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec25796614a765902efeac48a85017ab97aa926f9bb85de07fde91d3158e5f3beada05b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:10:07 - 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其實本席這樣歸納起來還是一樣就是說對於消費者來講有沒有有利的效果以及會不會造成說市佔率改變然後還有單方面的漲價的部分就是不公平的一個情況那從這樣的一個角度來推估就所謂的這個外送平台也有現在的合併是不是也是以這四大面向來做一個討論的方向"},{"start":110.857,"end":129.786,"text":"本席過去到現在一直都很關心外送平台的競爭尤其是現在合併我們特別重視的是消費者的權益以及商家是不是會因為這樣而被迫產生更高的成本還有外送員的權益以及最後不能造成聯合壟斷的漲價情勢"},{"start":132.927,"end":159.071,"text":"在現在兩大平台業者已經送案的情況未來會不會也找兩大平台業者來去做陳述意見應該會請 我們看委員會怎麼討論如果這個案情重大有需要請當事人陳述意見就會做這個決定所以什麼時候 因為你現在這個兩大平台已經送件了嘛那未來是30天到90天裡面會做審查結果你是不是上午有講是說不會拖延"},{"start":160.271,"end":188.16,"text":"我盡量不會拖延但是還是要看委員會討論提出的意見是不是有要再處理的這項事項是但是因為外界那我可不可以請教一下這一點是本企業好奇或是說想要了解的因為既然外送平台兩大業者他們我們現在都已經提出呼籲那兩大平台業者有沒有做什麼樣的一些不管是溝通或是事前的一些這來詢問或是說想要促成這樣的一個"},{"start":189.22,"end":202.515,"text":"這個合併的一個做法在這段時間裡面其實從3月就已經這個新聞就出來了嘛那現在一直到11月嘛那這中間過程裡面不管是我們要求他申請或是說這個過程裡面他們有沒有做什麼樣的溝通"},{"start":203.857,"end":224.222,"text":"是針對外界大家提出來這些議題這些疑慮他們所先做的事宜或是說他們提出的這個審查裡面他們所提出的一些方案的改進這個結合按社會大眾的關切是這個競爭疑慮如何他有對我們做說明這個我們也必須要請他說明如何去回應這些競爭的議題"},{"start":225.922,"end":239.333,"text":"是 所以他的申請書裡面都有完整的講到我們過去到現在質詢的這些疑慮嗎?關切的這些議題有請他說明他也有說明那目前你看到的狀況是否完整?"},{"start":240.216,"end":265.711,"text":"目前需要提供的資料已經齊備了那所以這個結合方還有利害關係人方各界的意見這些意見整合之後我們也包括要跟跨機關跟學者專家利害關係人在進一步這個聽取這些意見之後我們就進入委員會的討論所以我現在想請教的是說到底我們什麼時間點能夠有一個結果出來"},{"start":267.09,"end":289.101,"text":"因為你剛剛本席其實問的你回答也相對是都是推給說委員會的審查但是我們現在想要了解說到底這個申請人他會不會被要求我們再來進一步的說明你也不一定確定那申請的結果審查的期限到什麼時候也不一定確定這個需要委員會討論我才能夠跟各位說明"},{"start":291.04,"end":306.617,"text":"但是外界的疑慮到底我們能不能說確實的把關我想外界的疑慮我們一定會作為在討論的時候一個很重要的參考因素但是因為我們是委員會是我現在不適合談會或不會是不是"},{"start":307.578,"end":323.948,"text":"好本席還是強調啊就說諸位我想你也很瞭解說為什麼我們一而再再而三在這個部分來要求公民會要做到這個嚴格的把關以及參考國際上的案例就是因為台灣不能變成一個實驗的舞台啊"},{"start":324.528,"end":345.781,"text":"尤其是這關心到的是2350萬人就是說不管是我們消費者權利不管是外送員的權利不管是餐餐飲業者的一個權益其實這一些都是方方面面那如果說我們在這個審查的過程裡面要嚴謹的把關以及參考國外的一些相關案例尤其是已經有看到很多的一個部分是韓國也好"},{"start":346.561,"end":346.821,"text":"好 所以 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高齡相關的普惠科技、高齡科技這方面扮演很重要的主導地位，但是我希望你們要有美好世界的想像跟信心，要朝這一方面。因為時間的關係，看到最後一頁，是不是可以請主委跟國科會同仁積極的面向這裡，是不是可以針對這樣子的概念，給我一份你們對美好新世界的想像規劃好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，國科會對美好新世界想像的規劃有信心。"],["吳委員春城：有信心，好，謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員，謝謝主委。","我們現在來處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案1案，請宣讀。","案由：經國家發射場域選址作業第二次審查會議之委員一致決議，國家太空中心選出國家發射場域之候選場址，並將於113年11月30日於台東縣達仁鄉南田部落、113年12月1日於屏東縣滿州鄉九棚村，辦理國家發射場域候選場址之公聽會。國家太空中心應於公聽會後一周內，彙整相關意見，至伍麗華委員辦公室說明。","提案人：伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　郭昱晴　　張雅琳　　陳秀寳　　林宜瑾"],["主席：好，提案委員或者連署委員有沒有要做說明的？國科會只有改了一個小地方？"],["吳主任委員誠文：希望是兩週內，因為這樣蒐集意見會比較完整。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，這是我們教文委員會的提案，是不是……"],["主席：改了、改了，他說送提案委員辦公室，好不好？"],["林委員宜瑾：送提案委員辦公室？"],["主席：對，本來是彙整相關意見至伍麗華委員辦公室說明。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["主席：那現在是不是就是兩週內送提案委員辦公室？"],["林委員宜瑾：好啊。"],["主席：這樣比較恰當一點，好不好？"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，好。"],["主席：你要說的，本席都了解。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝。"],["主席：那我們就這樣改。好，我再說一次，國家太空中心應於公聽會後兩週內，彙集相關意見送提案委員辦公室。這沒有問題嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這沒問題。"],["主席：那我們就照文字修訂後照案通過。","我們的提案如果還有委員要補簽的話，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄。","接下來繼續進行質詢，現在質詢的委員是楊瓊瓔委員，時間4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579664b3015d2f88a08c1fde9c36da10785a79bb85de07fde91d38a4d4e9809745efa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:58:10 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consultation的流程嗎跟一些對象國家就是會員國我們是有一些諮商12國都有嗎沒有應該沒有12國都有因為他就是開一個有一個燈然後我們可以跟對方開始去溝通但是還沒有成立正式的工作小組在臺灣工作小組還沒有成立所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立"},{"start":579.617,"end":593.312,"text":"在開會當中這兩天還不確定嗎今天明天我們還沒有成立工作小組但這一次的CPTPP會會不會讓台灣成立工作小組未知但是允許pre consultation就是預先協商我們現在12國跟幾國進行預商呢"},{"start":596.667,"end":604.033,"text":"奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄台灣OK了我們立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法我們已經符合高標準的貿易這個規範了我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決"},{"start":623.903,"end":651.718,"text":"這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對這又不一樣喔沒有錯大家同意跟沒有人反對這種consensus他的mega就很多了所以反對的人要說理由啦你不能說所以我要提的就是說如果因為中國因素被暫割這個絕對是不對的因為中國永遠無法那個無法符合那個高標準貿易規範如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範變成綁架台灣把他帶進CPTPP這也不行"},{"start":652.458,"end":681.318,"text":"那擋住台灣不能參加更不行所以中國因素這是一個貿易團體貿易組織應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視他的條件如果錯誤的把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話那我們台灣可能你要等到中國達標那一天不知道哪一年哪一月了那我最後只請問一個問題根據這一個媒體的報導說馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣"},{"start":682.239,"end":707.144,"text":"我跟委員說明其實沒有人反對台灣現在只是說你所謂共識決要不要台灣去獲得所謂百分之百現在11加1嘛那個英國是今年加入就是說他這個加拿大做人質主席國對奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓台灣也可以諮商以外呢你反對的國家你要獎勵理由比如說如果那個反對我們的國家自由貿易的程度比台灣還低"},{"start":707.944,"end":709.224,"text":"我剛才問的問題你沒有回答馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎?"},{"start":737.438,"end":755.732,"text":"我沒有得到這樣的訊息說他們是不贊成因為我從新加坡那邊看起來其實新加坡跟台灣的經貿還算蠻正常的兩國還有FTA他怎麼有意見那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事啦我跟委員報告其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的啦"},{"start":756.112,"end":758.633,"text":"請您密切注意,我們在審總預算的時候大概就知道了。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時58分）謝謝召委，麻煩請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長辛苦了，風塵僕僕！"],["林部長佳龍：不會，謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：所以早上你在進行我們賴清德總統3天後出訪一些行程上的安排，有關出訪，本席有些問題要就教於您。我要特別提醒外交部，你看，日本石破茂總理在改選之後，日本的媒體也跑出一堆疑石破茂論、疑美論、疑川普論等等，臺灣也有類似的情形，所以有時候透明化可以揭露的資訊，在不影響國家利益、盟邦互信的前提下，儘量讓納稅人了解現在發生什麼情形，其實是可以增加信心的。以下，我快速詢問幾個問題，有關賴總統出訪南太平洋友邦，路透社報導說，中共可能會在臺灣鄰近地區發動軍演，就這一題，我要先提醒外交部，中國會不會發動軍演，根本不是新聞，它全年度對臺灣都有軍事騷擾動作，每個月一次聯合戰備警巡，昨天二十幾個架次的機艦騷擾臺灣，也就是說，平常它都有軍事動作，它想要取個名字，有一個政治意涵在裡面，它就要取一個名字，你現在跟它說，有喔！你有利劍三C，它就不取這個名字，讓你好像沒有信用一樣。其實中共的軍事騷擾，不管對第一島鏈國家、對菲律賓、對臺灣、對日韓，那是全年經常性存在的，只是它這一次會不會用別種形式、政治意涵的透露。外交部是國家的發言人，對於賴總統出訪期間，印太地區第一島鏈的和平穩定以及中共的軍事力量展現，我們國家的立場是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：因為中共的威脅就如同委員講的，其實是一直在，而且不斷在加壓中，構成了新常態，當然我們跟友好國家會彼此……"],["王委員定宇：友好國家彼此平常情報交換，這個都會，我的意思是說，如果中共在我們元首……民選總統出訪是喜事，對全世界來講，這只有增加互動、和平、繁榮，沒有壞處的，可是卻有個流氓國家以這個作為威嚇的理由時，到時候我們國家外交部會不會正式對外發表聲明？如果有的話。"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定是會發表聲明，最主要是我們要讓國人了解，因為這也是中共認知作戰的一部分，不管是從520到雙十，而它會不會由演轉戰……"],["王委員定宇：那是另外一件事。"],["林部長佳龍：那是另外一個問題，我們必須從它的這些作為當中去了解。另外一個就是可能情形的因應，我們在元首出訪的部分也有一些經驗，特別是政府在交接期間……"],["王委員定宇：劇本都有準備好了嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["王委員定宇：因為這一次如果中國把它的軍事行動，我再強調一次，它平常就有，如果它把軍事行動標記成一個政治的口號，它是有它的目的，比方說美國的政權正在交替，日本的內閣也剛組成，南側的菲律賓內部現在也有一些問題，所以在它的這個動作上，我是希望我們外交部做好一些發言的準備，而且橫向聯繫很重要。就我們向國防部了解起來，目前沒有看到中共部分有軍力調動的情形，所以演習可能就是演習，因此誇大它的效果搞不好也是中了它的計，但小看它也沒必要，就是料敵從寬。"],["林部長佳龍：確實如委員所講，像是戰備警巡它幾乎每週都有……"],["王委員定宇：它現在已經是每週了。"],["林部長佳龍：它現在只是透過宣傳，怎麼樣去作成一種認知作戰。"],["王委員定宇：就好像沈伯洋每天會從301走過去一樣，就替他取個名字叫做沈伯洋出巡，它只是用那個名詞去強調一件事情，但它一直是在那裡借沈伯洋委員的名字用一下啦。","我這一題先到這裡打住，我要詢問一下我們賴總統出訪的問題，第一個，我們現在知道要出訪三個友邦，可能會過境夏威夷，除了這些已知的以外，有沒有未知的國家可能會去訪問？"],["林部長佳龍：這次還是……"],["王委員定宇：可以講就講，不能講就不要講，我的意思是說，過境美國、南太三盟邦這四個地方我們大概知道了，有沒有這四個已知以外的未知？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：這次沒有。第二個，這次會過境夏威夷吧？"],["林部長佳龍：這個部分總統府方面會對外統一說明。"],["王委員定宇：如果會過境，因為過境對我們來講已經不是突破了，假設會過境的話……"],["林部長佳龍：我是說四大原則，就是安全、尊嚴、便利跟舒適。"],["王委員定宇：那是美方對臺灣過境外交的……安全、便利、舒適嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們會以這個方向來做安排。"],["王委員定宇：我們想要關切的是外交動作，比方說到夏威夷的話，能不能到我們的駐處看一下？你點頭，你現在是說會嘛？OK，好。"],["林部長佳龍：這是你的建議啦。"],["王委員定宇：好，我的建議。第二個，我們有一個聯兵營在夏威夷受訓，能不能去鼓勵我們的官兵一下？"],["林部長佳龍：這個也是你的看法，都很寶貴。"],["王委員定宇：所以實現了就是我算得很準而已。再來，除了一些智庫、參眾議員以外，AIT理事主席通常例行會來，除非他有事，有沒有一些行政層級的訪賓？"],["林部長佳龍：有關過境的事宜，如果有安排是什麼樣的內容，我想這都涉及到雙邊，也涉及到由總統府他們會針對……"],["王委員定宇：他們到時候會發布嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對，會適時對外說明。"],["王委員定宇：但是現在我們的過境，在蔡英文總統任內過境其實跟以往的過境已經不太一樣，有點像入境訪問了啦，記者跟總統不用分開飯店，記者可以「堵麥」、可以演講，賴總統這個規格不會減少吧？"],["林部長佳龍：就是我剛剛提到的這些過去的慣例，還有基於這些出訪或過境的原則，都是……"],["王委員定宇：簡單講，從蔡英文總統到賴清德總統，我們過境美國的規格不會減少、不會降低嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有什麼……我們臺美關係就是如磐石般地堅定。"],["王委員定宇：對，其實我們過境外交在過去這八年有相當大的突破，尤其去丹佛那一次，所以我是希望這一次如果在過境上有些展現，比方說去看自己的代表處是有意義的，像是去慰勞我們受訓的官兵，這也有意義，一個是外交，一個是安全，這個部分我期待後續的消息。","接下來，我再問一下CPTPP的消息，這個媒體是Politico，Politico報了一個消息，我覺得蠻特別的，第一個，它說這次CPTPP的會議會把臺灣的入會案因為中國因素暫擱，就外交部來看，因為你們是負責推動這個的主責單位，目前有這個情形嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為加拿大輪值主席國，各會員在開會，就涉及到有沒有要新申請加入的國家可以列入工作小組，工作小組成立之後才會進行詳細內容的協商。"],["王委員定宇：第一個重點，像當年的英國，就是送件之後很快速地成立工作小組，它現在已經完成入會了，現在12國了。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是說，臺灣申請入會也有相當時間了，有沒有如同Politico所報導，其實這個媒體也算大媒體，它報導說因為中國因素，臺灣入會的部分這次會議就不處理，當然暫擱不是永遠暫擱，有沒有這個現象？"],["林部長佳龍：對，因為它還沒有成立工作小組，不管是臺灣或中國……"],["王委員定宇：所以就有問題。"],["林部長佳龍：即使是外面報導的其他國家，也要先成立工作小組，現在就是有奧克蘭三原則，臺灣是都很符合，第一個是高標準，第二個是沒有不良的貿易紀錄，第三點是共識決。共識決的部分，現在經過今年輪值主席國加拿大的解釋，其實要促進效率，而不能變成在擋別人，所以這個解釋我覺得對臺灣來講，共識應該是內容符合之後，最後大家來決定，而不是說要不要成立工作小組是要全體同意。而且現在有所謂的pre-consultation，也就是在工作小組之前也可以展開雙邊諮商，我們已經展開了。"],["王委員定宇：臺灣有開始進行pre-consultation的流程了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：跟一些對象國家就是會員國，我們是有一些諮商。"],["王委員定宇：12國都有嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：應該沒有12國都有。"],["林部長佳龍：因為它就是開一個燈，讓我們可以跟對方開始去溝通，但是針對臺灣還沒有成立正式的工作小組。"],["王委員定宇：我們工作小組還沒有成立？"],["林部長佳龍：還沒有。"],["王委員定宇：所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立？"],["林部長佳龍：還在開會當中，這兩天……"],["王委員定宇：還不確定嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：對，今天跟明天。"],["王委員定宇：我們還沒有成立工作小組，這次CPTPP的會議會不會讓臺灣成立工作小組是未知，但是允許pre-consultation也就是預先協商，我們現在跟12國中的幾國進行預商了？"],["林部長佳龍：這個比較不方便對外透露，因為大家都知道中共的加入，它不太符合標準，可是因為它也去申請，所以就導致一些國家可能會比較有顧慮。"],["王委員定宇：奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄，臺灣OK了，立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法，我們已經符合高標準的貿易規範，我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決，這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對，這又不一樣喔！"],["林部長佳龍：沒有錯。"],["王委員定宇：大家同意跟沒有人反對，這種consensus的「眉角」就很多。"],["林部長佳龍：就是反對的人要說理由啦，不能說……"],["王委員定宇：所以我要提的就是，如果因為中國因素被暫擱，這絕對是不對的，因為中國永遠無法符合高標準的貿易規範，如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範，變成綁架臺灣把它帶進CPTPP，這也不行，擋住臺灣不能參加，更不行。所以中國因素，這是一個貿易團體、貿易組織，應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視相關條件，如果錯誤地把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話，我們臺灣要等到中國達標那一天，不知道哪一年哪一月了。","我最後只請問一個問題，根據媒體報導，馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見，這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員說明，其實沒有人反對臺灣，現在只是所謂的共識決需不需要臺灣獲得百分之百的……現在是11加1，英國是今年加入的；而加拿大做輪值主席國，對於奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓臺灣也可以諮商以外，反對的國家必須要講理由，比如說，如果那個反對我們國家參加的自由貿易程度比臺灣還低，人家就會覺得他是政治因素，我覺得這個有一點是說，我們本來要去說服大家，可是現在變成反對我們參加的要去說服大家。"],["王委員定宇：加拿大這部分是有幫忙，等於說你要反對，你要說出違反奧克蘭三原則的理由在哪裡，但國際政治我們不能這麼天真爛漫可愛，有時候……"],["林部長佳龍：也就是我們並沒有被拒絕，但是我們要得到更多國家的支持。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才問的問題你沒有回答，就是馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我沒有得到他們說不贊成的訊息。"],["王委員定宇：因為我從新加坡那邊看起來，其實新加坡跟臺灣的經貿還算滿正常的，兩國還有FTA，他怎麼有意見？那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事，我想……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的，沒有反對的……"],["王委員定宇：因為CPTPP對我國的經貿……"],["林部長佳龍：可是要不要成立工作小組，這個是由他們會員國在這兩天決定哪一個國家可以先成立工作小組。"],["王委員定宇：請你密切注意，我們在審總預算的時候，大概就知道了，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，部長請回。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec25796683bd2f1451a47a74a85017ab97aa926f9bb85de07fde91d366fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:03:12 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上個月之內你針對這個怎麼樣定員容易解約難這個部分你知道這個問題上個月之內提出一個解決方案我希望你像LTC一樣能夠有相關的這個作為"},{"start":238.393,"end":261.2,"text":"提出具體的做法,可以嗎?可以,沒有問題。你三個月喔?是。三個月我會把時間記起來喔。你很明確,而且你要公告。而且你要看看目前現狀還有哪些這個不合理的地方。會跟委員說明我們的怎麼樣的一個做法,會後會跟委員說明。好,另外第二個有問題請教,淡價。淡價你現在是供過於求,對不對?"},{"start":262.691,"end":281.638,"text":"公共維權單價還是上漲代表說它的這個整個整個機制價格的機制透明度不夠也潛在有一些這個市場機制不透明之外會影響到消費者的權益這個其中暴露出這個潛在的市場不當行為針對這問題公平委員會有沒有調查"},{"start":286.033,"end":308.199,"text":"我想跟委員說明這個單價的價格的決定因為在畜牧法27條有一個特別規定它有一個這個法定的產銷條形機制所以你要去跟農業部去協調啊為什麼這個供大於求這個還上漲這一部分我們有跟農委會討論過討論過這一次單價整個單價的情況而且已經上漲兩次從11月到11月已經上漲兩次了"},{"start":314.002,"end":342.003,"text":"有相關的監管措施若現行的制度現行的機制沒有辦法解決這個透明度不足的問題你們就要介入一樣三個月可以嗎我會跟委員說明我們跟農委會還有我們的查處的情形今天時間過得特別快來第三個問題請教一下這個Uber Eats要合併Foodpanda這個問題我"},{"start":342.611,"end":358.027,"text":"大概分析下有四大隱憂第一個隱憂就是說外送員的生存危機的問題第二個隱憂你從國際購併案例的預警新加坡他有一個案子這個他否定了Grab要收購這個"},{"start":359.908,"end":379.816,"text":"佛羅潘達的這個勾兵難,市佔率8成,我們這個也是市佔率8成,突破8成。沙拉阿拉伯,他更直接把disarming hero,這個Travis那個,他市佔率6成也把它否定了。國際的案例可以給我們參考。另外我們的抽成機制,我們的抽成的比例遠高於國際的水準。"},{"start":381.559,"end":382.84,"text":"這你是不是要檢討?"},{"start":382.84,"end":405.826,"text":"要檢討那你運費調漲,你現在單一模式要擴展到這個多重的計費模式等待費也好,收成費也好,驗證費等等也好這四大問題我會用書面質詢給你那麻煩你針對我書面質詢資料給我明確的一個答覆時間掌握非常精準謝謝趙偉 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114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":134.989,"end":139.211,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委。第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委。"},{"start":163.663,"end":188.635,"text":"我們過去是依照那個申訴還有行政院的SOP做的但是你有被檢討嘛這是你們自己寫的不是我講的我們檢討不是這是你們自己寫說你們被檢討然後再來就是第三點八月份的時候有安排一個主管共識營安排訓練可是我只是覺得很奇怪一點因為你們的要點是11月20幾號才訂定出來"},{"start":189.675,"end":194.197,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":217.466,"end":238.787,"text":"所以你們11月要點出來我們來看一下你們的要點你們對於職場霸凌有一個定義就是說他是要一個利用職務的關係然後長期持續性的冒犯、威脅、忍弱、孤立、侮辱然後有不合理的對待跟不公平的處置所以之後如果說國科會裡面有員工"},{"start":240.389,"end":241.81,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":260.127,"end":284.225,"text":"這是我們行政院人事行政總署定定的辦法所以到時候還是會根據個案來衡量啦 衡量他有沒有被霸凌因為其實我們最近也有接到很多民眾在公家機關服務他覺得被霸凌比如說他覺得被針對長官希望他換工作等等但是他到底因為他的個人主觀認知是不是真的有被霸凌我覺得應該要訂定一個很明確的規範出來啦"},{"start":285.646,"end":288.667,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":305.291,"end":306.933,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":331.004,"end":345.822,"text":"很多人講說這跟我們情收做得好很有關係嘛然後運動科學也有導入嘛這個主委以你自己從事之前打棒球世界的賽的經驗你覺得這個電子好球帶可以幫助我們球員哪些方面?"},{"start":346.715,"end":347.876,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":372.717,"end":375.439,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委。第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":398.675,"end":416.057,"text":"應該會有幫助在防止對手攻擊會很有幫助因為第二期的專案是在112年到115年也是補助12個研究團隊那裡面也剛好有棒球可不可以透露一下現在國科會補助的項目是以哪些項目棒球的部分"},{"start":416.485,"end":418.166,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":439.341,"end":464.713,"text":"投球機的智慧化這個也在發展當中。智慧化可以怎麼樣?智慧化的意思就是說我可以讓投球機模擬對手的投手的球路,這個是很困難的事情,這個我們也在發展當中。所以什麼時候可以研發出來?已經有處刑了,還沒有那麼準確,但是希望明年。你有去看過嗎?我有看過。你有看過,那是怎麼樣?"},{"start":465.984,"end":469.087,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":488.154,"end":491.636,"text":"adequate to the current state of affairs."},{"start":519.235,"end":540.893,"text":"所以你們現在也有補助這個項目在發展我們也補助這個項目因為感恩上經典賽嘛你說對什麼時候會那個確實有雛形嘛那之後什麼時候會確認其實現在都已經在用了在用了我們那個職棒的球團我現在講的是說你們現在這個第二期專案計畫啦準備要研發的項目喔這特別學術研發將來還要結合產業發展啊對"},{"start":542.975,"end":558.621,"text":"那這個學術研發的項目到產業發展其實還有一段路啦但是我們培養的人我是這樣建議啦主委因為你自己我覺得很難得啦就是說有世界棒球賽經驗的然後現在當國科會主委然後剛剛我們現在非常重視"},{"start":559.761,"end":561.463,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":562,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時56分）麻煩請國科會主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，吳主委，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。因為大家最近都很關心霸凌，當然我們辦公室也有去跟國科會了解一下霸凌的狀況，國科會後來有回給我們一個文，這個文有一些部分我不是太清楚，所以利用這個機會來跟主委詢問一下。第一個，在你們的回文裡面有提到，113年經檢討本會，就是指國科會，應該訂定防治專屬規定，強化員工保護。國科會是被檢討什麼？是以前都沒有在反霸凌，然後被誰檢討所以要反霸凌？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是沒有反霸凌，是過去沒有完整的辦法。"],["葉委員元之：被誰檢討？因為你們是說上半年就開始研議，可見它並不是因為勞動部這個事件的關係。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是依人事行政總處。"],["葉委員元之：人事行政總處覺得國科會在這方面做得不好是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：人事行政總處在108年其實是已經有函頒一個職場霸凌處理的SOP規範，我們都是依照那個規範……"],["葉委員元之：為什麼113年上半年才開始？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們其實上半年……那時候我還沒有接到。"],["葉委員元之：我知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該也是接到行政院的命令開始要制定。"],["葉委員元之：所以人事總處108年定了一個辦法出來，但國科會過去5年都沒有任何動作，然後到了113年的上半年被檢討，所以就開始研議，要訂定一個反霸凌的申訴要點，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是沒有動作，是那時候就依行政人事行政總處的SOP。"],["葉委員元之：對啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在比較嚴謹的辦法已經定出來公告。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，所以其實，主委，從國科會給我的資料可以證明一件事情，您上任之前，那時候國科會對霸凌這件事情不重視，所以才會被檢討，這是你們給我的資料。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是不重視，可能是過去沒有多……"],["葉委員元之：就沒有很重視，不是不重視，就是沒有很重視，不要玩文字遊戲。所以上半年就開始研議，看得出來不是因為勞動部的關係，是因為長期沒有很重視，所以上半年被檢討有開始研議，然後11月就訂定了你們的職場霸凌的申訴跟處理要點……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們過去是依照那個申訴還有行政院的SOP做。"],["葉委員元之：但是有被檢討，這是你們自己寫的，不是我講的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好啦、好啦！"],["葉委員元之：對，今年……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們檢討。"],["葉委員元之：不是，這是你們自己寫說你們被檢討，然後再來就是第三點，8月份的時候有安排一個主管共識營，安排訓練，可是我只是覺得很奇怪的一點，因為你們的要點是11月二十幾號才訂定出來，這個要點應該是看到勞動部的事情所以把它定出來，可是8月的時候就開了一個主管的共識營……"],["吳主任委員誠文：就代表我們有重視。"],["葉委員元之：可是沒有具體，所以可能就宣示性的共識營，大家吃個晚餐，然後唱個歌，共識一下，共識營我也有參加過，可是因為你的要點都還沒出來，你要共識什麼？所以11月的時候，我們看一下11月……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們是不斷在宣導，跟主管宣導。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以你們11月要點出來，我們來看一下你們的要點，你們對於職場霸凌有一個定義，就是說他是要利用職務的關係，然後長期持續性的冒犯、威脅、冷落、孤立、侮辱，然後有不合理的對待跟不公平的處置。所以之後如果國科會裡面有員工覺得被霸凌了，到時候就會根據這個職場霸凌的定義來判定他到底是有沒有被霸凌，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個定義，當然我們會組委員會由他們來認定。"],["葉委員元之：由他們來認定？"],["吳主任委員誠文：調查認定。"],["葉委員元之：因為現在這個定義寫得比較抽象。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個是我們行政院人事行政總處訂定的辦法。"],["葉委員元之：到時候還是會根據個案來衡量啦，因為其實我們最近也有接到很多民眾在公家機關服務，他覺得被霸凌，譬如他覺得被針對，長官希望他換工作等等。但是因為他的個人主觀認知，到底是不是真的有被霸凌，我覺得應該要訂定一個很明確的規範出來啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：可是有時候很主觀，不太容易認定，所以我們會依照個案請專家，當然外部專家也會幫忙處理。"],["葉委員元之：OK，希望主委可以重視這個事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我會重視，謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：接下來，我想跟主委請教一下，因為主委本身，我們也都了解你是臺南巨人少棒隊第一代的投手，對吧？第一代投手，那時候有拿到世界冠軍嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：非常厲害喔！剛好你現在這個位置也可以幫棒球做一些事情，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，非常樂意。"],["葉委員元之：因為你現在有一個精準運動科學研究專案計畫，第一期計畫裡面有一個電子好球帶的……我們這一次中華隊拿到世界棒球冠軍，很多人講這跟我們情蒐做得好很有關係嘛！然後運動科學也有導入嘛！主委，以你自己之前打棒球世界賽的經驗，你覺得這個電子好球帶可以幫助我們球員哪些方面？"],["吳主任委員誠文：電子好球帶其實是來輔助裁判好壞球的判決，也可以讓投手了解他投的這個球到底是進到好球帶的哪個區位，所以這是輔助性的，特別是在比賽的時候維持它的公正性，有這個作用，也讓觀賞比賽的觀眾能夠了解投手投的這個球落在哪個點，增加這個……"],["葉委員元之：也可以幫忙情蒐嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：也可以幫忙情蒐，就是投手在一場比賽裡面，他投球的分布，球種是要看軌跡啦，不是只有好球帶，還有他進到好球帶的比例，哪個方位的比例，這個對於攻擊方來講是一個很重要的資訊。"],["葉委員元之：你那個時候沒有這個東西嗎？當投手的時候。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那時候沒有，那是五十幾年。"],["葉委員元之：如果那時候你有這個的話，你會覺得你投得更好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該會有幫助啊！在防止對手攻擊會很有幫助。"],["葉委員元之：因為現在第二期的專案是在112年到115年，也是補助12個研究團隊，裡面也剛好有棒球，可不可以透露一下，現在國科會補助的項目是以哪些項目？棒球的部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們其實沒有限制運動項目，但是因為棒球是臺灣國球，所以很多學者想要做棒球研究。"],["葉委員元之：因為你們的已經涵蓋了棒球，我時間有限，我是針對棒球在問。"],["吳主任委員誠文：棒球包含發展好球帶，好球帶那個還會繼續，因為電子好球帶其實是常常會有誤差啦！另外一個就是投球機的智慧化，這個也在發展當中。"],["葉委員元之：智慧化可以怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：智慧化的意思就是說我可以讓投球機模擬對手投手的球路，這個是很困難的事情，我們也在發展當中。"],["葉委員元之：所以什麼時候可以研發出來？經典賽之前有可能嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經有雛形了，還沒有那麼準確，但是希望明年啦！"],["葉委員元之：你有去看過嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有看過。"],["葉委員元之：你有看過，那是怎麼樣？比如說可以模仿互相投球的球路，然後……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們要情蒐他……"],["葉委員元之：你是去設定它？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以設定。"],["葉委員元之：設定這個人是誰，然後它投出來就很像，包括配球還有球路都很像？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以很像，希望目標是這樣，明年應該雛形可以展示啦！"],["葉委員元之：明年雛形可以展示，趕得上經典賽嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：今年在實驗室已經做出來了，他們正在測試當中。"],["葉委員元之：除了這個投球模擬之外，還有什麼新的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還有我們也資助很多新創的團隊，透過攝影機還有發球機在做選手的資料分析，投球打擊都有，這種資料分析現在是非常重要的，這是情蒐過程當中最重要的一環，就是做資料分析。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們現在也有補助這個項目在研發當中？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們也補助這種項目。"],["葉委員元之：也趕得上經典賽嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你說？"],["葉委員元之：我說其實是有雛形嘛，之後什麼時候會確定？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實現在都已經在用了，我們那個職棒的球團……"],["葉委員元之：我現在講的是你們第二期專案計畫準備要研發的項目。"],["吳主任委員誠文：特別學術研發，將來還要結合產業發展，學術研發的項目到產業發展其實還有一段路啦，但是我們培養的人才……"],["葉委員元之：主委，我是這樣建議啦，我覺得很難得，因為你自己有世界棒球賽經驗，然後現在在當國科會主委，剛好我們現在非常重視運動科學，應該以你個人從事棒球的經驗，然後去跟那些研發團隊討論一下，其實有的時候，不見得是別人來申請，你們補助嘛，你也可以主動出擊啊，針對特定項目去找大家來做研究，來補助。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，這個很好，我會努力做這個事。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，主委請回座。","接下來我們有請吳春城委員質詢，吳春城委員質詢完畢之後，我們就來處理臨時提案，只有一案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579666d27f3e7e38236e0768d664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by好請主計長委員好"},{"start":18.425,"end":29.197,"text":"主計長最近因為臺灣的棒球拿到世界冠軍所以大家又開始重視體育然後重視體育的預算其實我看我們這個政府不論是編在體育署的體育的經費"},{"start":36.565,"end":62.686,"text":"或是說編在我們這個運動發展基金裡面的這些經費其實對於我們的不論是球員或是我們這個全民運動或是說各級學校的這個軟硬體設施的這個補助呢其實我認為到目前為止都還做得不錯那當然也是還是可以有再加強的部分那我先請教一下這個我看了一下這個體育署的這個預算"},{"start":64.868,"end":78.266,"text":"這個明年度有關於這個推展全民運動等等的預算合計有大概有41億這個是114年的預算但是我是要請教一下主計長"},{"start":80.149,"end":101.946,"text":"這個萬一這個財化法按照國民黨版本通過之後那當然它是效果是在115年那如果就114年我們這個體育署的這個相關的運動的補助的話41億這個未來會不會受到影響我們原則上是全部如果要減的話應該是減半是減半"},{"start":105.722,"end":121.651,"text":"就是說如果按照國民黨版本通過之後中央沒有這麼多的錢再來補助地方那所以說比如說114年的這個運動補助總共有41億所以未來有可能補助只能減半"},{"start":122.817,"end":133.765,"text":"因為我以今年114 3兆1來看的話,那一法律一物就1兆8嘛那減到一法律一物之後剩下一兆3那一兆3的部分我要減到6612億減掉之後我只剩下6500億左右"},{"start":138.729,"end":166.38,"text":"所以這個部我一定是減半所以一般我就列出來一般就是說我基本需求的部分包括國防預算包括0到6歲的一個相關的一個補助包括我們體育的一個運動相關的一個都是以目前來講全部減半才有辦法符合這個需求這樣子因為被挖走了一半以上了嘛那所以說未來對於地方的補助大概也只能剩下一半那我在這個看這個"},{"start":168.263,"end":188.332,"text":"資料這個或許這個你們有最新的資料如果按照國民黨的版本通過之後這個會不會發生說這個縣市他的預算的本來的預算的數這個會這個就是我們給他補助比他們本來他們自己縣市的這個年度預算還要多啊"},{"start":189.513,"end":210.283,"text":"有多少?你們有算出來了嗎?應該大概有14到15個縣市它是超過就是說未來按照國民黨版本通過之後他們本來他們自己的稅出我們給他補助就是財務法通過之後給地方的補助會超過他們原來的這個縣市的這個政府的這個稅出就對了"},{"start":213.504,"end":234.381,"text":"因為目前的版本是說我對縣市的補助要維持上年度的額度如果這樣子來維持的話那我一般縣市補助還包括統籌分配稅下去就將近有15個地方它超過它的需求所以它剩下自由財源都是剩下的是這樣子等於是說"},{"start":235.702,"end":249.639,"text":"中央給他錢他就夠支付他的預算了那如果說以自由財源來講的話如果不貪一般縣市補助的一個部分那自由財源我們沒有一般縣市補助他也是都超過他原來的預算數我舉個例"},{"start":251.361,"end":256.186,"text":"廉江縣本來年度預算是44億但是按照國民黨的版本撥給他們的補助會有69億超過他們的稅出預算25億以後會發生這種情況縣市高達15個那些多出來的錢要怎麼去用"},{"start":273.503,"end":300.621,"text":"對所以現在就是說市權沒有相對的調整這是不公平因為原來省的業務的部分他說所謂15%的部分其實縣市的部分只有4.3%那11%的部分是屬於省的業務但是你現在撥出去的高達21%將近21%所以這個部分省的業務沒有市權沒有移回去包括全民健保包括老龍津貼通通還是中央在負擔"},{"start":301.161,"end":325.524,"text":"所以這個部分對中央來講也是一個很大的一個負擔就是我們之前也談了好久就是錢跟權要一起來談所以就像主計長所講的有15個縣市我們給他未來的這個統籌分配款或是什麼補助款下去之後會比他原來的這個縣市政府的預算稅數還要多那現在也不知道說多了那些錢"},{"start":326.385,"end":327.106,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":344.218,"end":360.453,"text":"這個資訊來看有很多都是非法定社福但是這個涉及到當然有一些縣市政府他們覺得說我自己有錢我願意多給一些社會福利但這個不是我們法定的社福支出所以未來這種情況"},{"start":361.374,"end":389.722,"text":"因為你多了這麼多錢嘛要嘛就兩種嘛非法定社福支出一定會增加福利大放售那是不是符合需求那就是要去做討論另外一個就是說地方的沒有必要的這個像文資館這種硬體的設備也有可能會增加因為你多了這麼多錢你不去執行的話變成你的執行率不高不好對啊那就是說就會發生這種事情了是不是"},{"start":390.831,"end":418.414,"text":"那再跟委員報告其實我們有一部分的前瞻PEW軌道建設的一些經費將近有4000多億一直也還沒有騙上去那這一個部分也會嚴重影響到那其實這一個部分影響的比較多的就是整個六都因為它大部分都是跨域的所以一般它的一個軌道的建設也受到很大重大的影響因為到時候中央完全沒有能力來負擔這些啊對啊像我新北我現在三重有個北環要接台北"},{"start":419.114,"end":442.231,"text":"最後會接到這個士林、會接到這個內湖那邊去我也不曉得說以後我看前瞻是有在補助啦那未來中央還有這個能力做補助嗎因為他還沒有編完的部分全部前瞻已經結束了所以將來是要納到總預算裡面去編列那這個部分已經沒有能力去編列所以必須一定是這個部分就要修正一個補助的一個比率"},{"start":442.891,"end":459.012,"text":"因為其實我上次有問過就是說你本來是財劃法沒有通過之前我們有一定的補助比率但是你如果說按照國民黨的財劃法通過之後你補助比率就修正啊因為你沒有這麼多錢啊你想要補助你都沒有這麼多錢可以補助啊"},{"start":461.801,"end":480.231,"text":"日前監察院秘書長李巨毅備詢時表示,就112年度而言,審計部總共提出1760項地方政府的財政問題,包括非社福法定支出、文資管等。"},{"start":482.992,"end":500.707,"text":"然後監察院就會挑其中嚴重的案子再給予調查那我這個就要請教這個審計長這1760項地方財政問題主要是哪些東西?哪些內容?是有共通的現象嗎?這個你們有去查出來嗎?"},{"start":504.38,"end":510.503,"text":"好委員謝謝我們這1760項大概我們都有一個規定內部審核的問題有110項計劃預算組型的問題有1116項財務管理的事情有184項產銷營運有79項採購作業有165項事務管理有106項"},{"start":530.334,"end":546.713,"text":"大概我們都共通性的都有像那個公共債務的比例以法定債限的問題剛剛委員有講到新增後扣增非法定社福的問題像112年度就增加了63例"},{"start":547.914,"end":563.581,"text":"那被主計總處就扣減補助款2億這個大概我們都這方面我們都有一些查或者送檢查案或者移送檢料那以後採訪法通過之後這種現象會不會更嚴重"},{"start":564.802,"end":584.341,"text":"這可能要好好的中央和地方的財政還有剛剛委員講的市和錢還有主計長憂心的因為他要把這個總預算編好所以一向那個一般性他因為一般性補助款和計劃型補助款就佔了因為地方"},{"start":586.144,"end":594.2,"text":"最近都是靠計劃性補助款和統籌分配稅款向114年度就移域下去如果不能動"},{"start":595.322,"end":622.652,"text":"主計長就會相當跟這個這一本總預算明年的總預算編的話他是錢會編不出來沒有地方再給地方那你這邊的問題有可能是說那地方拿到這些錢之後有可能會亂用這變成是你那邊的問題對這個方面如果錢下去我們會加強力道我們反正你只要動用國家資源我們一定會加強來查核"},{"start":624.113,"end":631.715,"text":"主計長,今年度的經濟成長率,八月預測是3.9,全年是3.26,這是八月份預測的。現在你們有沒有最新的資料,大概今年度全年的經濟成長率是多少?"},{"start":649.757,"end":665.594,"text":"目前大概應該會再往上提升因為第三季他的表現很好所以整個前三季的一個是百分之五點多那我們本來初步第四季是差不多一點多那整個平均起來應該有望再往上提升就是會破四就對了"},{"start":666.855,"end":690.987,"text":"嚴則上應該會因為我昨天在一個場合有聽總統在講他對於這個經濟成長很有信心他說有望年度的經濟成長會破市這個資訊應該是你有給他吧不然總統也不會說這個自己講出來吧因為我們明後天才要公布這個數字我們不方便在這裡說但是看起來是這個趨勢是朝上的有機會破市就對了趨勢是朝上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":744,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時53分）謝謝主席，我們先請主計長，如果等一下有談到審計部的部分，再請審計長隨時stand by。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好。最近因為臺灣的棒球拿到世界冠軍，所以大家又開始重視體育，然後重視體育的預算，其實我看我們的政府，不論是編在體育署的體育經費，或是編在運動發展基金裡面的這些經費，其實不論是對於球員，或是我們的全民運動，或是各級學校軟硬體設施的補助，我認為到目前為止都還做得不錯，那當然也還是可以有再加強的部分。我先請教一下，我看了一下體育署的預算，明年度有關於推展全民運動等等的預算，合計大概有41億，這個是114年的預算，但是我要請教主計長，萬一財劃法按照國民黨版本通過之後，當然它的效果是在115年，如果就114年體育署相關的運動補助41億，未來會不會受到影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上如果要減的話，應該是減半，大家都要減半。"],["李委員坤城：就減半。如果按照國民黨版本通過之後，中央沒有這麼多的錢再來補助地方，譬如說，114年的運動補助總共有41億，所以未來有可能補助只能減半？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對！因為我以今年114年三兆一來看的話，依法律義務就一兆八，減掉依法律義務之後，剩下一兆三，在一兆三的部分，我要減掉6,612億之後，只剩下6,500億左右，所以這個部分一定是減半，就列出來一般基本需求的部分，包括國防預算、包括0到6歲相關的補助、包括體育運動的相關部分，以目前來講，全部減半才有辦法符合需求。"],["李委員坤城：因為被挖走了一半以上了嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以未來對於地方的補助，大概也只能剩下一半？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，我在看這個資料，或許你們有最新的資料，如果按照國民黨的版本通過之後，會不會發生縣市本來的預算數，就是我們給他們的補助比本來他們自己縣市的年度預算還要多啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對！因為我們現在如果……"],["李委員坤城：有多少，你們有算出來了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大概有14到15個縣市是超過的，譬如說……"],["李委員坤城：未來按照國民黨版本通過之後，他們本來自己的歲出，就是財劃法通過之後，給地方的補助會超過他們原來縣市政府的歲出就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為目前的版本是對於縣市補助要維持上年度的額度，如果這樣維持的話，一般縣市補助還包括統籌分配稅一下去，就將近有15個地方超過它的需求，所以它的自有財源都是剩下的，等於是中央給它錢，就夠支付它的預算了；如果以自有財源來講，不談一般縣市補助的部分，自有財源沒有一般縣市補助也都是超過它原來的預算數。"],["李委員坤城：我舉一個例，以連江縣來看，本來它的年度預算是44億，但是按照國民黨版本撥給他們的補助會有69億，超過他們的歲出預算25億，就是以後會發生這種情況的縣市高達15個，那些多出來的錢要怎麼去用？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，現在就是事權沒有相對的調整，這是不公平的，因為原來省的業務部分，他說所謂15%的部分，其實縣市部分只有4.3%，11%是屬於省的業務，但是你現在撥出去的高達將近21%，所以省的業務事權沒有移回去，包括全民健保、老農津貼，統統還是中央在負擔，這部分對中央來講也是一個很大的負擔。"],["李委員坤城：我們之前也談了好久，就是錢跟權要一起來談嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是！"],["李委員坤城：就像主計長所講的，未來的統籌分配款或是什麼補助款下去之後，有15個縣市會比它原來縣市政府歲出預算數還要多，現在也不知道多的那些錢未來會做什麼，我們就很怕會浪費，就是一些沒有必要的或不是法定社會福利支出，這就有可能會發生，因為按照審計部相關的資訊來看，有很多都是非法定社福，當然有一些縣市政府覺得自己有錢，願意多給一些社會福利，但這個不是法定的社福支出，所以未來這種情況，因為你多了這麼多錢，就有兩種方式，非法定社福支出一定會增加，福利大放送，是不是符合需求，就是要去做討論；另外一個就是地方沒有必要的，像蚊子館這種硬體的設備也有可能會增加，因為你多了這麼多錢，你不去執行的話，變成你的執行率不高、不好，那就會發生這種事情，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：再跟委員報告，其實我們有一部分的前瞻，譬如軌道建設的一些經費，將近有四千多億，一直也還沒有編上去，這個部分也會嚴重影響到，其實這個部分影響比較多的就是整個六都，因為它大部分都是跨域的，所以一般它的軌道建設也會受到很重大的影響，因為到時候中央完全沒有能力來負擔這些支出。"],["李委員坤城：對，像我的選區新北，現在三重有個北環要接臺北，最後會接到士林，會接到內湖那邊去，我也不曉得以後……我看前瞻是有在補助，未來中央還有這個能力補助嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有編完的部分，因為前瞻已經全部結束了，所以將來是要納到總預算裡面去編列，這個部分已經沒有能力去編列了，所以這個部分就必須要修正一個補助的比率。"],["李委員坤城：是啊，因為其實我上次有問過，就是本來財劃法沒有通過之前，我們有一定的補助比率，但是如果按照國民黨版的財劃法通過之後，你補助的比率要修正，因為你沒有這麼多錢啊，你想要補助都沒有這麼多錢可以補助。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：日前監察院秘書長李俊俋備詢的時候表示，就112年度而言，審計部總共提出1,760項地方政府的財政問題，包含我講的非法定的社福支出，還有蚊子館等等，然後監察院會挑其中嚴重的案子再調查。我要請教審計長，這1,760項地方財政的問題，主要是哪些東西？哪些內容有共通的現象？這個你們有去查出來嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員，謝謝。這1,760項我們大概都有一個歸類，內部審核的問題有110項、計畫預算執行的問題有1,116項、財務管理的事情有184項、產銷營運有79項、採購作業有165項、事務管理有106項。共通性的，像公共債務的比例與法定債限的問題，剛剛委員有講到，新增後課徵非法定社福的問題，像112年度就增加了63億，被主計總處扣減補助款2億，這方面我們都有一些調查，或者送監察院，或者移送檢調。"],["李委員坤城：以後財劃法通過之後，這種現象會不會更嚴重？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這可能要好好地看中央和地方的財政，還有剛剛委員講的事和權，還有主計長憂心的，因為他要把這個總預算編好，所以像那個一般性……因為一般性補助款和計畫型補助款就占了……因為地方最近都是靠計畫型補助款和統籌分配稅款，像114年度就有1億下去，如果不能動，主計長編這一本明年的總預算的話……"],["李委員坤城：他是錢會編不出來，沒有辦法再給地方。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["李委員坤城：你這邊的問題有可能是地方拿到這些錢之後，有可能會亂用，這變成是你那邊的問題了。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這方面如果錢給下去了，我們會加強力道，反正你只要動用國家資源，我們一定會加強來查核。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝審計長，我最後再請教一下主計長，今年度的經濟成長率，你們8月的時候預測是3.9%，然後全年是3.26%，這是8月份的時候預測的，現在你們有沒有最新的資料？今年度全年的經濟成長率大概是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前應該會再往上提升，因為第三季的表現很好，所以整個前三季是百分之五點多，我們本來初估第四季是差不多一點多，整個平均起來應該有望再往上提升。"],["李委員坤城：就是會破4就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上應該會。"],["李委員坤城：因為我昨天在一個場合有聽賴總統在講，他對於經濟成長很有信心，他說全年度的經濟成長率有望破4。這個資訊應該是你有給他吧？不然總統也不會自己講出來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們明後天才要公布啦，所以這個數字我們不方便在這裡說。"],["李委員坤城：但是看起來這個趨勢是朝上的，有機會破4就對了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，趨勢是朝上。"],["李委員坤城：OK，好，謝謝主計長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝坤城。","接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966ccfa56a23862d8bca85017ab97aa926f9bb85de07fde91d3d197f29790cd35605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:52:40 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那我們在下禮拜會還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議那目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣"},{"start":59.723,"end":82.049,"text":"目前在這個整體階段當中我們委員會還沒有進行討論我希望所以最快在12月19會做出決定是這樣嗎法定期間是12月19號必要的時候可以再議裁我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定那我先請教一下如果這兩大平台合併的話那市佔率會超過八成"},{"start":82.922,"end":98.723,"text":"會超過八成以上到九成到九成那部長主委你認為這樣適合嗎你個人的態度跟想法一個事業在市場的市占率已經集中到九成這是在競爭法裡面會特別去關注對"},{"start":100.382,"end":122.763,"text":"所以如果照公平交易法裡面的規定的話獨佔事業這樣的話有可能影響到不得有下列行為啦除外其他的事業參與競爭甚至對於商品的價格服務的範圍有不當的決定等等甚至於濫用市場地位主委這些狀況應該都會發生吧如果一個地方佔有九成以上"},{"start":123.845,"end":139.992,"text":"這就是在公平法會列出來就是它很容易發生的情況所以會有這些禁制規定對所以如果照這樣看的話公平會應該不會同意這樣的一個併購案吧我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考量那竹威你的看法嗎你認為呢你贊同嗎你贊同這樣的併購案嗎"},{"start":143.779,"end":161.527,"text":"你是政務官我覺得你可以勇敢的表達你的態度跟看法我希望這些意見你要再充分表達公平貿易是政府機構之一所有的也都必須給社會各界所檢視政府部門要一起承擔的"},{"start":162.628,"end":179.736,"text":"不要做出一些跟大家有非常巨大的落差的一些決定特別是過去這個Uber有很多遊說的例子我們認為這個一定要嚴加的防範這樣狀況的發生好不好不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差而導致政府的形象受損我們會審慎處理"},{"start":182.477,"end":201.908,"text":"我再次提醒這個絕對已經具有獨佔的事業而且下面的行為都極有可能發生不要等到發生之後大家才來後悔然後大家才來檢討大家才來追究責任公平會要跟社會與時並進要了解人民的想法不要讓這樣的事情發生再來我請教"},{"start":204.164,"end":225.352,"text":"當Uber Eats其實貨力相當好啦52%比他的Uber貨力還要好他Uber才貨力31%Uber Eats貨力52%所以他想要去併購也很正常這麼好賺怎麼能不賺呢當然更要獲利他如果取得將近9成的話那基本上他更具有獨佔的效果了我們先來看光小型的"},{"start":226.372,"end":252.407,"text":"商店抽成就要35%大型的抽成24%這些東西羊毛出在羊身上這些店難道由店家全面吸收嗎?裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收全部轉嫁給消費者以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣的狀況如果你讓它一個獨佔的時候你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者甚至於壓榨到了外送員的一些權益這絕對必然發生"},{"start":253.928,"end":268.181,"text":"我可以告知主委必然發生所以這些請在內部的討論務必都要詳細的做討論好嗎是是主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎有注意因為這個大家都非常關切我們會裡面也都主委那你擔憂這樣的問題嗎"},{"start":271.96,"end":294.777,"text":"結合案件會不會造成市場集中以至於在這個市場競爭上有這個不利這個我們都會注意你認為有沒有可能發生嗎?如果照這樣現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了任何獨佔事業都有可能發生這樣的情況所以我們的法律才會把現在還沒有獨佔就已經這樣了那主委我問你好了啦小型的餐廳喔抽成35%你認為呢?會不會過高?"},{"start":302.101,"end":310.397,"text":"目前抽成比例大概我的了解25到38、40不等我會看每一個餐廳跟這個平台的這個盤盤力量"},{"start":315.072,"end":341.578,"text":"會不會過高我想要具體的情形來看主委連會不會過高都不敢講我想跟委員說明就是說這個抽成比例一個100塊的東西可能它裡面抽就要抽掉30塊40塊你不認為過高嗎 抽成比例太高或太低其實在競爭法這是一個市場機制但是如果是因為這個談判力量不對等或是因為市場力集中而做不當價的決定我要提醒的是那政府的功能在哪裡"},{"start":342.518,"end":363.553,"text":"我的意思是說如果這件事情現在這樣子你這樣兩家還有在競爭是長這樣子我都認為已經過高了然後外送的權益已經持續的受到影響如果他成為了獨佔事業超過九成那你可以想像絕對更高絕對更高百分之百更高那政府的功能在哪裡政府的角色在哪裡主委認同我的看法嗎"},{"start":365.559,"end":386.294,"text":"所以在結合的審查裡面一定會把這些都考量進去我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法你認不認同我認同委員的看法一個事業如果獨佔的話它在定價能力各方面市場上佔有那麼大我希望公平會在處理的事情中必須審慎的處理這件事情它還會帶動了包括甚至於消費者的權益的影響甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響這個我們都會再考量主委認同吧會帶動物價的影響你認同吧"},{"start":394.588,"end":409.002,"text":"有這個可能性吧這個都不排除任何的可能是齁好我們來看新加坡啦CCCS在處理的時候他光每一個全世界都這樣啦齁他的grab最大的齁他是63%他併購負偏大的時候"},{"start":411.664,"end":415.726,"text":"我們的法律事業有結合我們就要處理至於處理禁止或不禁止就是看這個個案來認定"},{"start":437.837,"end":464.71,"text":"我希望公平會要與人民民意同在好不好不要脫離了現實然後那個那我在看我們在看不只這樣啦全世界的外送平台從美國英國日本韓國新加坡泰國馬來西亞菲律賓印度越南香港沒有一家沒有一家是超過七成的頂多到六成台灣不要成為第一個超過九成的好嗎"},{"start":465.84,"end":488.985,"text":"我們會慎重處理這個 全世界沒有人這樣沒有人接受這件事情的發生公平會不要成為第一個讓這事發生的好嗎不要讓台灣名列全世界第一是用這種這種狀況下名列世界第一的這很難看而且他影響到很多消費者的權益主委可以嗎我們會慎重處理這一些包括委員包括各界關心的 我再提醒吶吼"},{"start":491.36,"end":519.527,"text":"公平會有這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的只有不到一成是贊成的這民意再次提醒諸葵你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎我們都有掌握你們知道八成的民意是反對只有一成是贊成嗎對不對包括連勞動部的外送的這些外送員的工作權他們也表達了強烈的意見要求跟平台來協商勞動部5月正式發案給公平會反對併購案"},{"start":521.646,"end":522.667,"text":"主委你有收到這個函吧?"},{"start":522.667,"end":529.832,"text":"有有你們知道老幫部的態度嗎?我們各界的態度其實現在都有了解好 勞動部反對你知道嗎?"},{"start":529.832,"end":547.063,"text":"知道好我要再講了吼Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多曾經隱匿重大的犯罪甚至於拿錢去付封口費10萬元我再次提醒Uber Uber Eats過去的總公司都做過這些事情"},{"start":549.147,"end":554.391,"text":"請勘警所有的公平會委員們不要被做了一些不當的遊說而導致做出錯誤的決定讓"},{"start":556.867,"end":582.401,"text":"國家會讓整個受到重大公平受到重大的傷害我要講的是我都有提醒走在前面如果做出了一些奇怪的決定而將來被調查之後是有涉獲到一些弊案是受了一些不該受的資源的時候然後再被查再被起訴再被調查判刑重傷害都已經造成了所以我提醒主委這件事情務必要謹慎小心不要"},{"start":583.502,"end":603.805,"text":"Uber以前做過這件事情他不會只對其他的對美國都可以做他都不會對台灣放過的我只是再次提醒公平委員都扮演重要的角色請務必要做出一個讓台灣人民接受的決定不要產生一些奇怪的決定然後將來被查出一堆弊案之後然後人民"},{"start":604.626,"end":622.206,"text":"對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題又再次的讓整個受到影響我再三提醒我在執行台上正式的提醒主委你要重視這個問題好嗎過去Uber曾經做過這些事情不要讓這些事情在台灣繼續發生我再次的提醒好 謝謝主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時52分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，大家都很關心外送平臺Uber併購foodpanda的案件，我先請教一下，這個案件已經送進來了，最快12月19日，最慢明年3月會有結果，是嗎？目前的初步討論狀況是怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：現在文件都齊備了，內部在整理這些資料。"],["賴委員瑞隆：開過會了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員會還沒有開，我們在下禮拜還有一個學者專家跨機關的會議會進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：目前初步的討論意見是怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前在整理階段當中，我們委員會還沒有進行討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以最快在12月19日會做出決定，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：法定期間是12月19日，必要的時候可以再延長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果有必要可以延長，我們希望公平會要審慎的做出這個決定，我先請教一下，如果這兩大平臺合併的話，市占率會超過八成。"],["李主任委員鎂：會超過八成以上到九成。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，你認為這樣適合嗎？你個人的態度跟想法呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：一個事業在市場的市占率已經集中到九成，這個在競爭法裡面會特別去關注。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，按照公平交易法的規定，獨占事業不得有下列行為，如阻礙他事業參與競爭、對於商品價格或服務報酬為不當之決定等等，甚至於濫用市場地位，主委，如果一個事業占有九成以上，這些狀況應該都會發生吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：在公平法會列出來就是它是很容易發生的情況，所以才會有這些禁制規定。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以如果照這樣看的話，公平會應該不會同意這樣的併購案吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想在委員會裡面會把這些因素都考量……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，你的看法呢？你認為呢？你贊同嗎？你贊同這樣的併購案嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想到委員會裡面……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你是政務官，我覺得你可以勇敢地表達你的態度跟看法。"],["李主任委員鎂：因為我也是其中的委員，這個討論的結果先……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望這些意見你要再充分表達，公平會也是政府機構之一，所有也都必須給社會各界所檢視，政府部門要一起承擔。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要做出跟大家有非常巨大落差的決定，特別是過去Uber有很多遊說的例子，我們認為一定要嚴加防範這樣狀況的發生，好不好？不要跟人民的民意有相當大的落差，而導致政府的形象受損，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會審慎處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我再次提醒，這個絕對已經具有獨占事業的性質，而且下面的行為都極有可能發生，不要等到發生之後，大家才來後悔，大家才來檢討，大家才追究責任。公平會要跟社會與時並進，要了解人民的想法，不要讓這樣的事情發生。","再來我想請教，當時Uber Eats的獲利相當好，獲利率達52%，比Uber的獲利還要好，Uber才獲利31%，Uber Eats的獲利52%，所以它想要去併購也很正常，這麼好賺，怎麼能不賺呢？當然更要獲利。它如果取得將近九成的話，基本上它更具有獨占的效果了。我們現在來看，光小型的商店抽成就要35%，大型的抽成24%，羊毛出在羊身上，這些東西難道由店家全面吸收嗎？裡面大概占不到1%的比例是由店家自行吸收，全部轉嫁給消費者。以現在兩大事業在競爭都是這樣狀況，如果讓它獨占的時候，你可以想像完全會轉嫁給消費者，甚至於壓榨到了外送員的權益，這絕對必然發生，我可以告知主委，必然發生，所以請在內部的討論時，這些務必都要詳細地做討論，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個會討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委有注意到這樣的問題嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有注意，因為大家都非常關切，我們會裡面也都有掌握。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，你擔憂這樣的問題嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：結合案件會不會造成市場集中，以致於在市場競爭上有不利，我們都會注意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你認為有沒有可能發生？如果照這樣，現在都已經抽成這樣的比例了。"],["李主任委員鎂：任何獨占事業都有可能發生這樣的情況，所以我們的法律才會把有可能的情況列出來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在還沒有獨占就已經這樣了，主委，我問你好了，小型的餐廳抽成35%，你認為呢？會不會過高？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前抽成比例，大概我的了解是25%到38%、40%不等，都會看每一個餐廳跟這個平臺的談判力量……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你認為會不會過高？"],["李主任委員鎂：會不會過高，我想要就具體的情形來看。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委連會不會過高都不敢講嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員說明，就是說，這個抽成比例……"],["賴委員瑞隆：一個一百塊的東西，可能裡面抽就要抽掉30塊、40塊，你不認為過高嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：抽成比例太高或太低，其實在競爭法，這是一個市場機制，但是如果是因為談判力量不對等，或者因為市場力集中而做不到價格決定，那是不可以的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要提醒的是，政府的功能在哪裡？我的意思是，如果現在還有兩家在競爭是長這樣子，我都認為已經過高了，然後外送員的權益已經持續地受到影響，如果它成為了獨占事業，超過九成，你可以想像絕對更高，絕對更高，百分之百更高，那政府的功能在哪裡？政府的角色在哪裡？主委認同我的看法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：所以在結合的審查裡面，一定會把這些都考量進去。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問主委認不認同我剛剛這樣的看法？你認不認同？"],["李主任委員鎂：我認同委員的看法，一個事業如果獨占的話，它在定價能力、各方面在市場上占有那麼大的公司……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望公平會在處理事情的時候，必須審慎地處理這件事情。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，會審慎處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：它還會帶動了包括消費者權益的影響，甚至有可能帶動整個物價的影響。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們都會再考量。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，認同吧？會帶動物價的影響，你認同吧？有這個可能性吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個都不排除任何的可能。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我們來看新加坡，CCCS在處理的時候，全世界都這樣，它的Grab是最大的，市占率63%，它併購foodpanda的時候是直接終止，它連案子都送不進來，CCCS拒絕接受，63%已經很高了，CCCS拒絕接受讓它將近九成的占比，完全不接受。新加坡絕不接受，連送案都不用送，我們公平會的態度呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們的法律事業有結合，我們就要處理，至於處理禁止或不禁止，就是看個案來認定。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望公平會要與人民民意同在，好不好？不要脫離了現實。我們再看，不只這樣啦！全世界的外送平臺，從美國、英國、日本、韓國、新加坡、泰國、馬來西亞、菲律賓、印度、越南、香港，沒有一家是超過七成的，頂多到六成，臺灣不要成為第一個超過九成的，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會慎重處理這個結合案。"],["賴委員瑞隆：全世界沒有人接受這件事情的發生，公平會不要成為第一個讓這件事發生的，好嗎？不要讓臺灣名列全世界第一是用這種狀況下名列世界第一的，這很難看，而且它會影響到很多消費者的權益，主委，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會慎重處理這些包括委員、包括各界關心的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我再提醒公平會，這些民意裡面有八成的民意是反對這件事情的，只有不到一成是贊成的，我提到民意，再次提醒公平會，你知道這些民意的調查結果嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們都有掌握。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們有掌握？你們知道八成的民意是反對，只有一成是贊成，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：了解，都有掌握。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括連勞動部主管的外送員，他們也表達了強烈的意見，要求跟平臺來協商，勞動部5月正式發函給公平會反對併購案，主委有收到這個函吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們知道勞動部的態度嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：各界的態度，我們其實現在都有了解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：勞動部反對，你知道嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：知道。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要再講，Uber過去的不良紀錄相當多，曾經隱匿重大的犯罪，甚至於拿10萬元去付封口費。我再次提醒，Uber、Uber Eats過去的總公司都做過這些事情，請看緊所有公平會的委員們，不要被做了一些不當的遊說，導致做出錯誤的決定，讓國家或者讓公平會受到重大的傷害。我要講的是我都有提醒、走在前面，如果做出了一些奇怪的決定，將來被調查之後，是有涉入到一些弊案，甚至收了一些不該收的資源的時候，然後再被查、再被起訴、再被調查、判刑，重傷害都已經造成了。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們不會接受任何的遊說。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我提醒主委，這件事情務必要謹慎小心。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：Uber以前做過這件事情，它對美國都可以做了，它不會放過臺灣的。我只是再次提醒，公平會委員都扮演重要的角色，請務必要做出一個讓臺灣人民接受的決定，不要產生一些奇怪的決定，將來被查出一堆弊案之後，導致人民對於政府的整個公信力跟政府的問題，又再次受到影響。我再三提醒，我在質詢臺上正式地提醒主委要重視這個問題，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["賴委員瑞隆：過去Uber曾經做過這些事情，不要讓這件事情在臺灣繼續發生，我再次的提醒，謝謝主委。"],["主席：請邱志偉召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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個做好對於可能中共的一些激烈的反應因應的做這些準備"},{"start":338.295,"end":356.87,"text":"謝謝部長部長再來就是要提到我們的外交資源的這個配置那今天我剛剛看這些預算書我們大概是有320億的稅出其中有120多億是員外那25億是在做國際會議的部分那部長剛從歐洲回來這次是去幾個國家"},{"start":358.624,"end":383.791,"text":"去比利時、立陶宛跟波蘭三個國家我認為接下來我們國家面臨的挑戰大概是主要是在印太為主印太戰略裡面幾個比較重要的參與的國家當然是我們第一島鏈包含菲律賓、日本甚至是韓國還有一些南海所在的區域的幾個聲索國都有"},{"start":386.091,"end":406.834,"text":"當然還有一個很重要的一個大國擁有核子武器的大國是印度那這些國家對我們來講他是生存上面的必需品就是說對我們來說這些國家跟我們是唇齒相依的如果我們少了美國這樣子的夥伴這種跨太平洋的夥伴的支持的話我們在安全上面的保障就會受到影響在外交上面的保障也會受到影響"},{"start":407.495,"end":429.896,"text":"所以我們當講到外交資源的配置的時候我很重視一點就是說我們會不會把所有的資源過度的放在幾個國家跟我國的直接利害沒有直接相關的國家那我沒有在說立陶宛跟我們的利害沒有相關但是我必須要講說立陶宛跟我們的價值確實是理念相近但是對我國的利益它不是絕對的必要性"},{"start":430.696,"end":431.477,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":453.158,"end":468.706,"text":"直截相關的國家我剛剛提到的這些印太的國家那才是我們最重要要把資源配置的地方包含歐洲我們這個外交部次長他過去駐法的時候也有非常好的關聯跟法國那法國其實他不僅僅"},{"start":469.787,"end":488.029,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":488.329,"end":515.238,"text":"我記得法國是有7年的建軍的計劃這個法國的戰略裡面包括他們有希望說有自由這個可以自由航行在台海上面他也會直接提出他們的資源所以過去我們跟法國之間不管是在軍事安全上面的合作在外交上面合作甚至他們直接提到台灣而且是直接支持台灣這是我們必須要重視的一個大過所以我希望未來外交部的資源我們在出訪的時候"},{"start":517.058,"end":543.92,"text":"時間有限那資源也有限那我們要選擇對的地方來增加我們的海洋治理區域安全還有太空海域的港資能力那在歐洲裡面有幾個國家有這樣子的能力的我們當然可以加強交往但是有一些可能沒有跟我們直接利害相關儘管說跟我們價值相仿但或許包含部長在內包含我們的國安首長在內要有效配置自己的時間跟資源"},{"start":546.727,"end":560.63,"text":"法國的七年建軍法在太平洋地區有很多屬地自由航行法國也是主力主要的國家另外其實包括英國他們的五眼聯盟或者是所謂的這個"},{"start":563.311,"end":568.073,"text":"委員所說的第一島鏈特別是我想菲律賓就在我們鄰近的國家怎麼樣一起能夠做好地緣政治上不只是價值的同盟還是安全的同盟"},{"start":587.6,"end":587.76,"text":"委員會提到的第一島鏈。（"},{"start":608.372,"end":608.472,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":150,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時47分）主席好，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長早。部長，剛才羅委員有提到賴總統接下來的出訪計畫，想請教一下這一次出訪的國家主要是選擇在太平洋，而非中南美的主要原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們在太平洋有3個邦交國，包括馬紹爾群島、吐瓦魯及帛琉，他們都有來參加賴總統520的就職典禮，也有邀請總統能夠去訪問。另外，我們國家元首對這個地區的訪問，上一次也已經是5年前了，是2019年蔡總統的時候，所以基於不管固邦、榮邦，我們希望能夠在比較短的時間內安排，就是以太平洋這3個邦交國為元首第一次出訪的訪問國家。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，其實我們國家元首出訪有幾個重要的意義，第一個當然是鞏固我們的邦交。第二個部分，我們常常看到元首出境的時候也會有過境外交，想請教一下，這一次的過境點大概有可能會是在哪裡？"],["林部長佳龍：我們不管是出訪或過境都秉持四大原則，這次在太平洋方面當然是安全、尊嚴、便利然後舒適，我把順序做了一點調整，最主要是這個地方的交通運輸，還有整個情況有比較大的限制性，所以我們就必須在同時一次能夠訪問3個國家做有效的安排。至於相關的出訪或有過境的安排等等，總統府會再進一步對外說明，訪問對象國家就是這3國，其他的部分會再做說明。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，我們就等待總統府方的正式說明，但是在這個出訪的過程中，有沒有掌握到中共會不會有什麼樣的干擾？比方趁總統在訪問的時候，會不會做出什麼小動作？"],["林部長佳龍：不管國安會或相關的部會單位，都有做一些對於情勢的分析，也跟我們的友邦密切聯繫，還有必要時候的因應，中共在過去幾次我們元首出訪時的作為，我們也都有納入這一次來做評估，我們國安單位都有做好妥善的準備與因應。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後，有傳出中共會趁賴總統出訪的時候發動相關的軍演，甚至是聯合利劍C，你們有掌握這樣的情資嗎？有這樣的可能性嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這個都不能排除，這是可能的劇本之一，當然，現在的整個國際情勢也是有很多變數，我想中共方面也應該都會去評估，不過我們做好元首出訪的萬全準備及一些配套工作，其實我們呼籲北京方面，不要對長年以來我們的元首出訪有過當的包括軍演，或者是這些比較offensive或破壞臺海和平及穩定的行為。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我最後再補充問一題，為什麼會選擇在拜登政府的時期出訪，不是在新政府的時候出訪，有什麼特殊的考量嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有機會就會安排出訪，當然，因為先前各方面的情勢、我們的評估以及友邦的邀請時間，就是安排在今年年底，我們也是要配合對方的行程，也有一些國家在選舉，像帛琉，他們的總統大選也剛選完，而周邊國家也有很多各方面，不管是選舉或者是在政府交接期間，但是我們還是依照我們的往例安排出訪，會彼此溝通做好對於中共一些激烈反應的因應準備。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。部長，再來就是要提到我們外交的資源配置，我剛剛看這些預算書，今年大概有320億的歲出，其中有一百二十多億是援外，25億是在做國際會議的部分，部長剛從歐洲回來，這次是去幾個國家？"],["林部長佳龍：去比利時、立陶宛和波蘭3個國家。"],["陳委員冠廷：我認為接下來國家面臨的挑戰，主要是在印太為主，印太戰略裡面幾個比較重要的參與國家，當然是我們第一島鏈，包含菲律賓、日本，甚至是韓國，還有南海所在區域的這幾個聲索國都有，還有一個很重要的大國，就是擁有核子武器的大國──印度。這些國家對我們來講是生存上面的必需品，對我們來說這些國家跟我們是唇齒相依的，如果我們少了美國這樣子的夥伴，這種跨太平洋的夥伴支持的話，我們在安全上面的保障就會受到影響，在外交上面的保障也會受到影響。","所以剛剛講到外交資源配置的時候，我很重視的一點就是，我們會不會把所有的資源過度的放在幾個國家，跟我國沒有直接利害相關的國家？我沒有說立陶宛和我們的利害沒有相關，但是我必須要講，立陶宛跟我們的價值確實是理念相近，但是對我國的利益，它不是絕對的必要性。所以我們的資源，包含會議上面的資源，包含我們投入上面的資源和時間，本來就要做有效的配置，比方歐洲國家，我最近看到我們的國安會秘書長包含部長，花很多時間在中東歐國家或是丹麥這些理念相近的國家，我都給予肯定，但我還是要提醒，跟我們生存直接相關的國家，就是我剛剛提到的這些印太的國家，那才是我們最重要的、要把資源配置的地方，包含歐洲，我們外交部次長過去駐法的時候，跟法國也有非常好的關聯，法國它不僅僅只是歐洲國家而已，仔細看它在太平洋或者在印太地區，其實都有海外的屬地，所以，當我們跟歐洲在討論到我們的交流的時候，我們必須要思考，這些國家怎麼樣可以跟我們進行更完整的合作。我記得法國有一個7年的建軍計畫，法國的戰略裡面包含他們希望可以在臺海上面自由航行，同時他們也都直接提出了他們的支援，所以，過去我們跟法國之間，不管是在軍事安全上面的合作，在外交上面的合作，甚至他們直接提到臺灣，而且是直接支持臺灣，這是我們必須要重視的一個大國。所以，我希望未來外交部的資源上，在出訪的時候，時間有限，資源也有限，我們要選擇對的地方來增加我們的海洋治理區域安全，還有太空海域的感知能力。歐洲裡面有幾個國家有這樣子的能力的，我們當然可以加強交往，但是有一些可能沒有跟我們直接利害相關，儘管說跟我們價值相仿，但或許包含部長在內，包含我們的國安首長在內，要有效配置自己的時間跟資源。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員，確實，法國的7年建軍法，還有他們在太平洋地區有很多屬地；自由航行的部分，法國也是主力、主要的國家。另外，其實包括英國，五眼聯盟或者是所謂的AUKUS，或者是Quad、Five Eyes，這些都是相當多的小多邊，臺灣也都積極地跟他們在交往。委員所說的第一島鏈，特別是菲律賓，也是我們鄰近的國家，怎麼樣一起能夠做好地緣政治上，不只是價值的同盟，還是安全的同盟，當然，經濟上跟貿易上這種同盟的關係，也是來支撐我們總合外交的這三根支柱，就是委員提到的第一島鏈，我們會做總合外交的一個加強，不是只是以邦交國，這些理念相近或利害一致的第一島鏈的國家，還有太平洋、東南亞區域，包括南亞的印度。謝謝委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回。接下來我們請王定宇召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966a4553a8d08288b7cc25d3d95b2a469816f2411ecd13e000b61e0ed21dd71ae2c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:46:39 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基準的一些關鍵技術的人員他們附中一定要有一個嚴格的申請那這個部分我相信其實也都有共識那為了要確保國家的安全跟產業的一個競爭那我們知道在第一波就是去年的12月5號國科會有公告這22項的國家核心關鍵技術的一個清單那這個清單的內容也包含了國防、農業"},{"start":112.159,"end":138.257,"text":"半導體及太空及資通安全等五個領域今年是11月1日我們有公告要第二波聽說我們的範圍其實還會再更加的擴大我想這個部分是不是也請主委稍微報告一下目前第二波的進度是如何將來我們又要怎麼樣來擴大更多的一些所謂的其他領域的技術的保護的這樣子的一個方向"},{"start":139.104,"end":141.026,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":157.239,"end":159.501,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":180.043,"end":181.023,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":197.571,"end":221.743,"text":"因為其實真的雖然是防不勝防但是還是要防所以其實不管是透過跟國際上的一些技術上的合作或者是說我們鼓勵我們這個臺灣的產業跟企業其實也要特別注意這個部分另外我想要問一下就是上個會期其實我們有特別關心就是臺灣第一個本土可信任的生成式AI對話的引擎台的一個進度發展的一個狀況"},{"start":223.944,"end":228.866,"text":"我們知道公研院是在10月29號有特別宣布要打造一個台灣首座的AI測試實驗室是要確保AI是不會說謊也是主要要扶植或是協助我們國內的一些廠商的評估還有改進語言的一個模式在不同的場域當中在使用的時候它能夠穩定再來就是有可靠性"},{"start":251.474,"end":275.095,"text":"那我不曉得我們的台德將來會不會也做這方面的一些評測那目前如果有的話這個評測的一個進程大概是什麼我們台德的這個評測其實在上半年已經啟動開始在做那這個評測的工具數位發展部也陸續在開發當中這個評測是非常重要我非常同意委員的看法"},{"start":275.595,"end":276.515,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":293.6,"end":312.535,"text":"我在9月初訪問美國的時候也跟美國的NIST也討論過這件事情所以我們的社會發展部跟未來在NIST他們是很大規模在做這件事情所以我們也會跨國的來做這種合作希望也能夠引進他們的工具有沒有一個比較大概的進程"},{"start":314.824,"end":329.091,"text":"這是不會結束的因為AI的模型一直在發展所以我們會追著跑一定會努力來做這個事情如果到時候有一些比較具體的一些成效或者是有一些具體的一個就是進程的發展其實可以讓我們知道可以嗎"},{"start":329.411,"end":330.933,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":344.95,"end":356.734,"text":"我們114年度我們特別編列了一個預算是在太空產業推動跟人才培育的計畫將近投入有14億多14.5億那我想是透過這個每年的一個產業的一些調查其實除了掌握這個國內這個最新太空產業的一個狀況作為將來制定"},{"start":365.017,"end":367.259,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":380.411,"end":385.973,"text":"第11、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第11、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第11、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":407.362,"end":427.607,"text":"十月底其實應該是說去年十月底其實我們有舉辦一個比較大的一個規模就是台灣太空國際年會那時候其實有表示就是說我們國內的一些太空的這個產業的一個產值希望能夠在118年的時候達到兆元那但是從這個表看起來就不管109、110、111、112"},{"start":431.209,"end":444.544,"text":"這個部分如果以每年增加200多億我們以300億來說其實118年可能只會到5000億還沒有辦法到兆元這個部分我們要怎麼樣達標啊"},{"start":445.745,"end":462.352,"text":"包括委員我們過去長期的太空的發展太空科技的發展是以實驗性質的那個遙測衛星為主但是當我們進到低軌衛星是以通訊衛星為主的這個年代慢慢的我們的產業的這個發展就會快速上來"},{"start":463.172,"end":468.735,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":491.306,"end":492.868,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":517.25,"end":538.418,"text":"另外一句話就是說我們跟全世界的在天上衛星的產業已經有增加大概快10%所以就是說已經往那個很正向的發展所以其實這個部分我們可以從那個基金上面看到台灣其實目前只有一家是跟太空有關的基金其實它已經默默的在那裡漲了一倍了不講哪一家啦"},{"start":538.798,"end":539.919,"text":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時46分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：主委早安。我們先來看一下這個新聞，我相信大家應該都有注意到了，科技業者最近有傳出中國智庫人士接觸了臺廠，探尋AI算力租賃，我想中國如果是透過所謂的第三地假外資，或者是包裝成臺商來臺要租用算力，其實真的是防不勝防啦！我想中國在美方大規模的管制跟監視之下，還是虎視眈眈，藉由各式各樣不同的方式進行一些挖角，或者是尋找竊取一些關鍵技術的方式，我想在這個部分我們真的不可不慎，尤其是我們被稱為AI大國，所以臺灣是不是有可能會變成一個缺口？針對國家安全的部分，等一下請主委好好來說明一下。當然立法院院會在2022年三讀通過了國家安全法部分條文，也表示未來只要是受到政府資助達一定基準的關鍵技術人員，他們赴中一定要有嚴格的申請，對此我相信也都有共識。為了要確保國家安全跟產業競爭，我們知道在第一波，就是去年12月5號國科會公告22項的國家核心關鍵技術清單，清單的內容也包含了國防、農業、半導體、太空跟資通安全等5個領域；今年是11月1號有公告第二波，聽說範圍還會再更加的擴大，這個部分是不是也請主委稍微報告一下，目前第二波的進度是如何？將來我們又要怎麼樣來擴大其他領域更多的技術保護這樣的方向？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。我們去年第一波22項公告，今年我們增加了10項，包含太空科技、量子科技、半導體及能源領域，我們都有增加，這幾項是依照跟我們關係非常密切的友好國家也同步在國際科技管制的項目，我們也都會參考，我們已經預告結束，徵詢民間的意見，目前產業界其實也都是正面看待，所以我們產業研發根留臺灣的原則是不會改變的，我們也跟友好國家合作，也確保在整個自由民主國家的陣營，我們在關鍵科技的項目都同一陣營、同樣在保護，這樣是確保我們的安全可以維持。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，因為其實真的，雖然是防不勝防，但是還是要防，所以其實不管是透過跟國際上的一些技術上的合作，或者是鼓勵我們臺灣的產業跟企業，其實也要特別注意這個部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，另外我想要問一下，上個會期其實我們有特別關心臺灣第一個本土可信任的生成式AI對話引擎TAIDE的進度發展狀況，我們知道工研院在10月29號有特別宣布要打造臺灣首座的AI測試實驗室，是要確保AI不會說謊，然後也是主要要扶植或者是協助我們國內一些廠商的評估，還有就是改進語言的模式，在不同的場域當中使用的時候能夠穩定，然後再來就是有可靠性，我不曉得我們的TAIDE將來會不會也做這方面的一些評測？如果有的話，評測的進程大概是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們TAIDE的評測其實在上半年已經啟動開始在做，這個評測的工具，數位發展部也陸續在開發當中，這個評測是非常重要，我非常同意委員的看法，可是這個評測相當困難，也就是說除了我們要證明它的準確度之外，我們也不希望它產生偏差，有一些對人權的危害等等，所以在資料的評測以及模型的評測，我們都會陸續進行。我在9月初訪問美國的時候也跟美國的NIST討論過這件事情，所以我們的數位發展部跟未來在NIST，他們是很大規模在做這件事情，所以我們也會跨國合作，希望也能夠引進他們的工具，但是我們自己……"],["郭委員昱晴：有沒有一個比較大概的進程？"],["吳主任委員誠文：進程喔？"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個是不會結束的，因為AI的模型一直在發展……"],["郭委員昱晴：一直在變。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們會追著跑，一定會努力來做這個事情。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果到時候有一些比較具體的成效或者是有一些具體的進程發展，其實可以讓我們知道可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，是、是、是，我們會提供給委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，剛剛其實包含吳沛憶委員也特別提到，就是在我們的太空產業，我想國家太空中心您也是負責人之一，當然我們也看到，114年度我們特別編列了一個預算是在太空產業推動跟人才培育的計畫，將近投入有十四億多，14.5億，我想是透過每年產業的一些調查，其實除了掌握國內最新太空產業的狀況作為將來制定一些政策或者一些評估，當然其實我們也會以國外，就是整個所有的國際來做指標性的一個……算是我們的目標，針對全球太空產業的調查，109年到112年，全球跟我們臺灣的太空產業的產值的統計，我們可以看到這個數字，以全球來講，其實它的增幅是7.46%，但是同期其實我們臺灣的太空產業增幅有43.4%，雖然看起來我們的增幅還滿多的，但是其實還是有很大的一個成長空間，國科會在去年的時候，應該是去年10月底，我們有舉辦一個比較大規模，就是臺灣太空國際年會，那時候其實有表示我們國內的一些太空產業的產值，希望能夠在118年的時候達到兆元，但是從這個表看起來，就不管109、110、111、112，這個部分如果以每年增加兩百多億，我們以300億來說，其實118年可能只會到5,000億，還沒有辦法到兆元，這個部分我們要怎麼樣達標？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們過去長期的太空科技的發展是以實驗性質的遙測衛星為主，但是當我們進到低軌衛星是以通訊衛星為主的年代，慢慢地我們的產業發展就會快速上來。我們在上個月行政院的SRB裡面討論的結果，很多的新創以及現在大的電子公司，他們都已經開始要投入了，所以我們估計未來幾年是一個成長的關鍵期，應該會快速地提升，所以我們118年的這個目標我還是相當地樂觀是可以達到。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以達到兆元的產值這個目標是沒變的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：相當樂觀。"],["郭委員昱晴：OK，那我們以最近期來講，明年的目標呢？明年目標我們大概會增加多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：明年目標，我相信……"],["郭委員昱晴：比較近期嘛！比較好估，會不會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：預估啊？"],["郭委員昱晴：有預估嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請吳主任來。"],["吳主任宗信：我舉個例子，就是從去年2023年，因為臺灣過去以往都是地面，大概占了98%，可是去年地面設備整體來講降到90%。另外一句話就是說，我們跟全世界在天上衛星的產業已經有增加大概快10%，所以就是說已經往很正向的發展，所以可以預期……"],["郭委員昱晴：其實這個部分我們可以從基金上面看到，臺灣其實目前只有1家是跟太空有關的基金，其實它已經默默地大概漲了1倍了，不講哪一家啦，聽說有第2家要出來了，我想這個部分也代表我們在太空產業當中其實也有一些比較進步的發展，我們也很期待，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭昱晴委員質詢，主委請回，謝謝。","接下來有請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157602","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966413899df38577440768d6645aa7846736f2411ecd13e000b975c7bd2c0b6c0015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:41:45 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後他是必須要看整個物價不是砍而是說他能調整的部分必須五年調整一次然後他做檢討然後而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調所以他是裡面有規範所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分不是砍是他沒有調這個部分"},{"start":576.905,"end":602.263,"text":"調整沒有成就因為他必須要說他的消費者物價指數必須累計達到政府5%以上這個部分才可以調整那第二個就是每四年要檢討一次所以他有兩個條件這兩個條件這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的好不好因為我看今年就是明年度是在減少的非常少我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少勒"},{"start":602.503,"end":603.003,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":625.923,"end":637.992,"text":"審議長好你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整但是我要講的就是其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部我真的覺得我們現在的審計部大概是"},{"start":644.457,"end":658.846,"text":"就是政府裡面的良心有關於在一些預算、財務過去你們確實也抓出很多包含前瞻這前瞻問題太多了留下一大堆的文字館還有一些國防前瞻特別預算的舉債太高那我認為審計部也都有盡到職責"},{"start":664.469,"end":668.791,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園市審計部桃園"},{"start":685.638,"end":688.442,"text":"審計部都到最後花光光了以後你們再去找問題但是我們還是要把問題找出來好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時41分）謝謝主席。請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：也請我們副秘書長。"],["主席：好，副秘書長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長和副秘書長好。上次我在這邊特別提到，因為我們一直在討論財劃法，事實上中央對地方，財劃法因為統籌款的部分有公式，但是補助款的部分就是中央分配給地方，當時我就在質疑，以我們六都來說，歷年一般補助款都是臺南市拔得頭籌，在六都裡面第一名，臺南市還很不服氣，我看到有一些綠媒還說它打臉我，它用一些它自己的表格。我今天就再一次的用行政院主計總處所做的報告，我們今天討論中央補助款，對不對？中央補助款的一般補助款裡面，在你們報告的第14頁，這是你們明年度對直轄市及縣市一般性補助款的編列情形表，大家如果有的話可以拿來看，我們如果拿六都來說，最少的是桃園市，114年是75億。第一名這次換人了，高雄市190億，臺南市189億，差1億。","所以我們如果拿六都來比較，確實臺南市今年掉到第二名，但是如果看歷年，我今天就用這個表格，這在主計總處的網站也通通都有，臺南市過去歷年都是六都裡面的第一名，可是大家看到我今天的表格一定覺得很奇怪。王鴻薇，你說什麼臺南第一名，它說第二名；你剛剛說今年高雄市第一名，高雄也是第二名啊！因為我很仔細的看你們的補助款，我發現一個非常特殊的狀況，也就是通常一般性的補助款可能用人口、面積或者是它所負擔的一些相關業務，確實六都它分配比較多一些，但是其實我們有一個隱藏性的第七都，神秘第七都，後來我看了以後，我確實有點冤枉臺南市，因為在歷年你們一般性補助，從110年一直到明年，你們一般性補助款最多的不是六都任何一個都市，而是屏東縣政府，你看今年還可以拿到192億，比高雄、比臺南都要高。所以我想請問主計長、請問行政院，我想各縣市都有很多業務，剛才比如說像金門，他們想做一些事情，因為沒有錢，最後把那個配合款也通通都退掉了。屏東不是人口最多，也不是面積最多，也不是財政自籌的能力最差，都不是，為什麼年年一般性補助款屏東都可以拿第一名，什麼原因？過去常常講說，哇！中央政府都是重北輕南，有嗎？如果我們看一般性補助款來說，歷年六都裡面臺南市、高雄市絕對可以分在一、二名，結果後來沒想到屏東更厲害，屏東可以拿第一名，所以你們這些補助款，難道不是重綠輕藍嗎？我直接整理了5年的資料給你看，因為我的時間有限，因為我待會兒還有很多要問，請行政院主計總處給我一個報告，請問你們一般性補助款的分配標準到底是什麼？為什麼出現這樣長期的不平衡、長期的傾斜？請問一下屏東縣它如何傲視全國，年年可以拿第一？我不解，這有神秘的公式嗎？請你給我一個書面資料。","接下來，因為我們要審查的太多，請問一下，我們今年的行政院二備金，今年到目前為止使用多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前是使用45億。"],["王委員鴻薇：多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：剩下45億啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：45億喔！目前45億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：剩下45億啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：剩下45億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：大家都可以看到，你們報告的第4頁說動支了26億，然後今年度編列的是74億，所以如果只剩下45億，事實上是動支29億，所以今年的動支金額非常的少，對不對？今年動支非常少。這是因為過去編得比較高，後來也是按照它實質的來做合理的調整，但是明年度你們二備金又把它提高到80億，今年已經快過完了，只剩一個半月都不到，你們也不過動用了29億，你這個報告其實有誤差，那你明年度要編到80億，要增加6億，為什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，因為我們現在就是說，除了我們災準金以往是20億，那今年提高到50億。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，這個我沒有什麼意見，因為是災準金，老實講我會再問你們，因為今年災損比較嚴重，應該照理講是嚴重，可是到現在為止，你也沒有給我說今年到底災準金動用了多少。你如果基於現在可能有一些氣候異常的狀況，或者是說你對我們治水預算的成果不具信心，很擔心到時候又到處淹水，所以你明年的災準金編50億，其實增加了1.5倍，對不對？從20億變50億，但是我不會有什麼意見，因為這個有災害才會用。那我請問你，二備金編那麼多幹嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：你今年用那麼少。"],["陳主計長淑姿：像今年凱米颱風就一百多億，現在山陀兒的這一個部分，還有一部分的農損還沒有報來，那我們的災準金在113年才20億，那是根本不夠……"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊！你已經增加到50億了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們今年光是災害就將近兩百多億的災損，那這個部分第二預備金也是挹注，所以目前還有45億左右相關的農損……"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長，我就知道你會這樣子，你知道嗎？其實在我們的預算法裡面，只要有災損的時候，我們任何科目都可以移做災準金，對不對？我們很多科目是不准隨便亂挪用的，但是你們其實被我們內政委員會抓到了，亂挪用啊！什麼資本門拿去做經常門啊！這個帳回來再算啦！災準金你提高我沒有什麼意見，但是災準金我剛剛講，比如今年200億，但全部災準金、二備金加起來也沒有200億，你就說你沒有錢了嗎？不會啊！你還是可以去挪用其他的科目，對不對？你知道為什麼我覺得你們二備金這樣提高沒有道理，第一個，今年度動支的那麼少，然後你明年一下提高了6億，我就覺得沒有什麼道理。因為我的時間有限，我還是要請問你，調整軍公教人員待遇準備為什麼要減少那麼多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一個就是減少的部分，主要是退休人員的部分，退休人員的部分它是5年調整一次、5年檢討一次，然後它是必須要看整個物價……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以砍了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是砍，而是說它能調整的部分必須5年調整一次，然後它要做檢討，而且必須要看物價超過百分之五以上才可以調，它是裡面有規範，所以這個部分就是針對退休人員的部分，不是砍，是它沒有調這個部分，條件沒有成就。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼沒有成就？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它必須要消費者物價指數累計達到正負百分之五以上，這個部分才可以調整，第二個就是每4年要檢討一次，所以它有兩個條件，這兩個條件……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個部分請你再給我比較詳細的資料好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我看明年度實在減少到非常少，我還以為我們的人員大幅的減少耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是、不是，這個部分是因為退休人員……"],["王委員鴻薇：是退休軍公教？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那請你給我比較詳細的資料，因為這麼大金額的變動，我們總是要了解。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：時間暫停一下，我請一下審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：審計長好。你們的預算基本上我不會做什麼樣的調整。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我要講的就是，其實我要褒獎一下我們審計部，我真的覺得現在的審計部大概是我們政府裡面的良心，有關於在一些預算、財務，過去你們確實也抓出很多問題，包含前瞻，前瞻問題太多了，留下一大堆的蚊子館，還有一些國防、前瞻特別預算的舉債太高，我認為審計部也都有盡到職責，所以預算的部分我不會調整，但是我想關於這些財政支出，請審計部本於過去的原則和態度，不要因為有什麼壓力，然後就開始畏首畏尾，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["王委員鴻薇：尤其前瞻到明年度，它是在最後了嘛！我知道審計部都是到最後錢花光光了以後，你們再去找問題，但是我們還是要把問題找出來，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157601","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157601","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579663ac3331628a605bbfde9c36da10785a76f2411ecd13e000b729861a5771213c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"1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normal那事實上已經在不管是正式的演習那甚至是有些勤勞行為那"},{"start":343.675,"end":345.997,"text":"法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰這些都發動之後以準時軍事甚至是軍事行為進行包括"},{"start":363.632,"end":365.414,"text":"對於這些新的發展我們在國際宣傳上就是認為說他們在為做武力犯台"},{"start":383.591,"end":400.784,"text":"做準備包括 像2758號這個有關聯合國的決議這把台海內海化把台灣內政化這些都是相關性所以為什麼我們最近得到國際上對我們很多的聲援包括對聯大2758號決議中共的曲解"},{"start":404.166,"end":419.469,"text":"各個包括歐洲議會還有一些國家的國會都通過有我的一個決議也是因為要透過這個跟理念相近國家的一個合作包括所謂的航行自由權以這個具體行動去說明台海是一個自由航行是一個國際的公海"},{"start":429.851,"end":443.34,"text":"其他當然我們的因應措施在第一線的以海巡署他們針對金門地區這個水域上面的這些涉及到的爭端都有所因應"},{"start":444.628,"end":450.77,"text":"中國是用法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰用這幾種方式來做一個侵擾我們如何要在法律上跟它做抗衡在這方面其實我們都有去做"},{"start":464.193,"end":465.054,"text":"國際上能夠認同或承認這個部分嗎?部長"},{"start":478.117,"end":502.523,"text":"那其實以這個中共的以像這個他的海警法第三次的一個修訂公佈包括對台獨所謂的懲罰的這個22條其實這個都包括剛剛講的這個聯合國大會27582決議其實這些都是以這個所謂的混合戰就是說灰色地帶的作戰"},{"start":503.363,"end":532.049,"text":"我們了解部長您所提的都是了解只是說在國際上到底承不承認這個部分我們就是以具體行動比如自由航行來去說明就是說我們是反對對方是沒錯因為我剛才有最後一個問題就是說如果情勢持續上升的話我們有沒有辦法提出這個國際仲裁的可能因為基本限制限制水域跟國際的這個海洋法的內國水域這個是不太一樣所以我們在想說而且我們也不是聯合國海洋公約的這個締約國"},{"start":533.049,"end":533.289,"text":"韓國軍事部長"},{"start":553.832,"end":553.912,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":571.645,"end":571.765,"text":"．羅美玲"},{"start":599.943,"end":600.445,"text":"有時間的關係謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（10時37分）謝謝主席，有請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，今天外交及國防委員會的會議因為部長早上有一個很重要的行程，所以延到10點才開始。外界都很好奇部長您消失的這1個小時到底去了哪裡，部長，可以說明一下嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，今天早上在安排總統出訪的事宜，因為再3天就要出訪，剛好跟友邦聯繫，還有相關的工作，就是要在這個時間能夠確認，所以跟委員會請假了1小時，感謝委員的支持。"],["羅委員美玲：之前外界都在想這次出訪到底會不會過境到其他的友邦，這個部分有確定嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們這次出訪主要是太平洋三個友邦，包括馬紹爾群島、吐瓦魯和帛琉共和國，這個部分已經有對外正式的宣布，相關行程的安排是以安全、尊嚴、便利和舒適這四項原則進行安排。"],["羅委員美玲：細節的部分你們還會再透漏嗎？今天下午據說有個記者會，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：下午國安會……"],["王司長良玉：對不起，關於出訪的行程，主要是府方那邊在適時的時候會再對外說明進一步的資訊，謝謝。"],["羅委員美玲：所以還要再進一步說明比較細節的部分就對了，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["羅委員美玲：所以現在不方便透露？"],["林部長佳龍：對，總統府方面……"],["羅委員美玲：府方這邊會來透露，OK。"],["林部長佳龍：會針對出訪的事情、相關的……基於這四大原則之下安排的交通還有相關的行程。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，瞭解。再來本席就要進入到今天我想要問的主題。昨天、前天中國的海警船已經連續兩天侵擾我國金門水域，金門禁限制水域在1992年我國國防部就依據兩岸人民條例劃設到現在，可是中國在1996年首度公布領海基線的時候，把我們的金門、馬祖都列入他們的領海基線裡面；經過金門214事件之後，中國國台辦更是公開否認金門禁限制水域的存在。甚至最近我們也看到有很多侵擾的行為，譬如不斷地侵入我們的海域，截至11月26日為止，海巡署提到今年已經累計到54次。當然，這些種種的侵擾行為就是中國意圖侵蝕我國對於金門水域的管轄權，甚至建立中國管轄執法的事實，以支撐中國宣稱擁有金門水域主權的訴求，所以我方在法律敘事戰中跟中國要如何抗衡？我們所擔心的是中國未來會不會將這個模式複製到我國其他離島周邊的海域、甚至是臺灣本島的海域？目前我們看到面對中國海警的侵擾，海巡署都有應處的措施維護我國海域安全及主權，可是外交部如何在國際社會上就金門水域管轄權跟中國進行法律敘事抗衡？甚至如果情勢持續上升的話，請問部長，我們有沒有辦法提出國際仲裁的可能？"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。有關於中國在今年初總統大選後展開一系列的混合戰，特別是灰色地帶的作戰，造成新常態，這裡面包括對於我們在海峽中線或者是鄰接區涉及到的像金門附近的禁限制水域有侵擾，有關這方面，海巡署也有因應，包括驅離、監控；國防部也根據相關的法令、兩岸關係條例公告限制禁止水域範圍，作為我們依法行政的依據。這個部分在發生一些衝突事件之後，也按照我們相關的作業準則辦理，但是在國際上我們對於這樣的現象，就是中共採取所謂的新常態（New 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全國的民眾都非常關心Uber Eats 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Eats和foodpanda的合併案件，因為他們合併了就會變成大怪獸，為什麼？因為他們的市占率合計占80%以上，他們原本就分居全臺灣的第一、第二，第一和第二合併起來會有什麼樣的情形？濫用限制競爭的機率就會大幅提高，對不對？所以早上每位委員都在為民眾發聲，主張這件事情一定要透明、公開、公正地披露出來給大眾知道。而且在這個外送平台上面，不只是外送員，還有消費者跟店家，他們環環相扣，關係著整個店家的成本跟外送員的薪水會不會受到這整個合併的影響，會不會讓他們的薪資、讓他們的抽成、讓他們的整個相關聯的事情，一再發生壓榨勞工的現象？這是我們關心的。5月份合併案件送件之後，你們就開始在審查，但是拖到11月8日，在11月14日才公布正式收件，在這6個月當中，你們就有審查了，為什麼？因為你們要求補件。如果你們沒有看所有資料，如何要求補件？你們已經要他們補件了，6個月的時間相當充足，補件一定是非常完備，所以11月18日正式受理之後，如果一個月，也就是12月19日沒有受理完成，如果沒有再追加到60天、90天，它的最後期限是2月19日，但是在你們的報告裡面提到要到3月份，就給你們緩衝到3月份。","但是本席要講的是，如果你們是以積極負責的態度來審理這些案件的話，這個合併案件必須要在12月底以前就要完成，我也知道這是委員制，委員制的委員在所有的審查當中要看到所有關鍵的問題，包括店家付費的方式、外送員薪資的部分以及所有時間的部分，這些都是大家關心的，包括所有審查委員也有叫過外送。所以主委，我們希望你要有擔當、要負責，雖然你們在審理案件過程中開了4次公聽會，但是我相信還有很多的問題，外送員有參加嗎？店家有參加嗎？這都是我們要積極努力的方向。最後，你在下個月會開一場閉門式會議，但我不希望是閉門式，希望是以座談會來討論所有的癥結點，讓各方都能夠受到最好的保護，尤其這兩家雖然是外國公司，不受我們臺灣的法律限制，但是我們要求它遵守我們的法律，你剛剛才說不受本國法律限制，但是它會遵照依法……"],["李主任委員鎂：我剛剛說它還是要受我們的法律限制。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們的法律就要限制它符合所有的公平及法規，你剛剛有這樣講嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我剛才提到不管是本國公司或是外國公司，都要遵守我們的法律。"],["呂委員玉玲：遵重？那可不可以依法辦理？"],["李主任委員鎂：當然依法辦理。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們就要依法辦理，所以我們的法律還是可以限制它的，它不是尊重，而是要符合並針對我們的法律去執行，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們的法律如果不允許結合，就是不允許結合，所以還是要看我們審查的結果，都是要照我們的法律來。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，你早上回答每個委員都一樣的回答方式，每個委員一再苦口婆心給你建議，就是希望你要注重、注意這些問題，你身為主委就是要有擔當，我們都瞭解委員會是委員制，但是我希望所有的委員都要聽到我們大眾的聲音，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們希望年底就送出來，你不要再說委員制了，年底就把它送出來，因為這個案子5月份就送件了，按照法規的時間要在一個月內完成，如果一個月不能完成，從11月18日受理審理，給你一個月時間、一個半月時間到12月底，你們積極開會難道不行嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們是要延長……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以不管如何12月底一定要有決定出來，再給我們一個結果。"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員報告，我想還是要看委員會討論的情形。"],["呂委員玉玲：可以，12月底把討論的情形報告給我們，你的決定如何報告給我們委員會，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：12月底前會跟委員報告進度。"],["呂委員玉玲：12月底就給我們委員會報告，這個事情我希望你積極努力負責。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會把進度跟委員說明，至於結果要看委員會。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，12月底跟本委員會報告審查的決定和結果。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們審查的進度……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道，進度如何告訴我們，決定如何也告訴我們，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：決定如何要等委員會討論完畢之後才能報告。"],["呂委員玉玲：12月底要告訴我們，已經給你一個半月的時間了。"],["李主任委員鎂：12月底能不能報告結果，這要看委員會討論的情形。"],["呂委員玉玲：決定如何要告訴我們，好不好？第二個要討論的是不實廣告，尤其是房子建案的部分，不實廣告逐年增加，2019年到2024年從3件一直到現在累積下來有53件房子的不實廣告，如果廣告不實，可能會沒地方住、沒有家了，這是多麼嚴重的問題！這些建商是委由售屋中心去做廣告，可能會為了使銷售成績好而有不實廣告的情形發生，如果是公平會看得到也是具體事實的部分，譬如夾層部分，或者售屋中心說要給你健身房，結果卻沒有給你健身房，這些案例都是。可能這個建案是在工業區裡面，只能做商業用，不能做住家用，到時候房子都沒了，這些樣態在我們的法規裡面都可以罰款，從5萬一直到2,500萬，如果連續再犯可罰5,000萬，但是我們看到這幾年來每一個建案都是幾億、幾億的，你的罰款多少？最多、最多60萬，這要如何遏止這些不實廣告呢？所以主委，你對建商的不實廣告有什麼裁罰以及更加嚴懲的辦法？"],["李主任委員鎂：我向來對於建商的不實廣告都非常嚴格在執行查察……"],["呂委員玉玲：罰款60萬……"],["李主任委員鎂：還有處以200萬、300萬，我們會看案情的不同、會看這個建案的規模以及建商配合辦案的態度等等，所以最高不是只有60萬，我們其實還有幾百萬罰鍰的案例。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以請公平會一定要嚴懲這些不實廣告，好不好？我們都有在法裡面給你嚴懲的辦法，有連續再犯的最高是罰5,000萬，保障人民的財產，讓他們有家可住，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時47分）","繼續開會（10時52分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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才是我們終極的目標，國科會有沒有跟環境部討論一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我想不只是國科會，整個行政院我們會去討論這個議題，跟環境部來討論看看在碳費徵收以後，如何好好去運用碳費，能夠形成正面的、對於未來減碳機制可以做得更好。"],["吳委員沛憶：是！因為園區內的廠商恐怕是大戶。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是大戶。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以國科會一定要積極來爭取，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後一點，兩個禮拜前環境部跟美國太空總署（即NASA），還有韓國、泰國、越南等國家一起舉辦2024七海計畫暨高屏實驗國際工作會，主要就是發表高屏空品3D實驗成果，昨天環境部也正式跟國科會、太空中心及中央大學簽署了空品衛星與國際監測的合作協議，我想請問一下主委，未來空品監測衛星這個計畫，你們會怎麼來執行？等於是臺灣的TASA跟美國的NASA也會來進行合作嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：跟美國的合作，我們是另外一個機制在進行，那……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，因為整個空品監測衛星很重要，大概是怎麼樣的規劃，能不能說明？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們目前的空品監測都是地面監測站在進行，將來我們會提升到從衛星可以直接來監測空品，因為從衛星我們可以看到更大的範圍，同時也會知道污染源可能是從哪些地方移動過來。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。目前的計畫，這個衛星是由臺灣自己發射嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們會有自己發射的衛星，包含獵風者可能會用得上，當然酬載的部分，我們跟國外也會合作，臺灣的學者也會投入研發，初期是由太空中心來整合這些酬載的研究學者，也會跟中央大學、環境部一起合作，來進行分析以及監測工作。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以這一顆我們預計要發射的空氣品質監測衛星，預計會由臺灣的TASA自己來發射？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們將來會陸續發射包含實驗性立方衛星跟比較高空的低軌衛星，甚至長期來講跟國外合作，還會到同步衛星，這個會逐年來做，我希望最快兩年內能夠有立方衛星先做這個實驗。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，太好了！我們希望太空中心其實跟國際的合作交流，這也都非常重要，馬上我們要舉辦太空博覽會了，聽說這次還有日本的資深太空人也會來臺灣。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是、是，我們下禮拜一就會……"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這個非常重要，因為博覽會是一個很重要跟社會溝通的管道，也要跟國人來分享我們臺灣工作的成果。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們禮拜天開放民眾參觀，禮拜一我們會跟幾個國家簽這個合作協議。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我們非常期待，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，主委請回。","接下來有請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579665942a7ee1fbde97c768d6645aa7846736f2411ecd13e000b76d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:30:01 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審議長 那個審計的人力分配我先請教啊 主委長等一下喔審計的人力分配問題我想跟你們請教齁這個你們的工作包括監督預算啊 審定決算啊齁 這個齁那 你看你們的人力分配 你看嘉義澎湖金門齁 的這個人事齁 人力齁 你看"},{"start":168.439,"end":194.313,"text":"15個人澎湖13個人你看監督的預算數加一室500多億澎湖縣400多億金門縣700多億719億您看一下我們金門縣的人力你看我們的金門縣審計室的人力只有13個人我們省的這個預算監督的預算比澎湖比嘉義多很多啊意思是說我們在金門審計人力呢平均監督的預算數"},{"start":196.431,"end":196.671,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":213.979,"end":233.265,"text":"謝謝委員你去講到我都痛處我那個人力啊每個縣市都十幾個人不足人家一個坑所以啊我那個法律有給我法定下線我這些都沒有達到法定下線"},{"start":234.915,"end":254.126,"text":"阿所以阿我們都齁沒有人要做嗎沒有人要做還是怎樣沒有延額阿沒有延額阿沒有延額阿那你要主動爭取阿像在我們市民地區我就覺得非常好幫我們做決議喔我也去申請阿但是喔剛剛那個委員在講總延額法"},{"start":255.803,"end":269.691,"text":"人事總署人事總署不願意就對了是嗎他有總委員法限制啊所以他給我的每個人都會相安要所以你們能力研究不足嘛那你就不擔心人事總署不擔心那個審計單位發生可能會公務人員過勞啊這也算霸凌啊人事總署不擔心嗎"},{"start":273.833,"end":299.6,"text":"他因為有種顏落法的問題所以我會體諒他那你體諒他我們沒有辦法體諒你因為我們金門縣的園的太少一般都是希望審計人員略少二號沒有沒有我們的審計人員略少你回去研究一下我們金門縣為什麼會這麼少我是這樣啦這個我已經向人事總署因為大院有做決議希望我們能夠增加顏落給我們那我已經去了兩次公文"},{"start":300.38,"end":312.484,"text":"我會再去第三次要看看還有沒有要不要我們再開個專會來解決這個問題如果沒有的話人事總署有來啊副人事長請上來一下暫停一下請他上來有在這裡喔來人事行政總署副人事長"},{"start":327.932,"end":336.505,"text":"委員好副委員市長來請問一下萬一發生過勞罷了致死這算801種你們不用考慮這個情形嗎"},{"start":339.774,"end":363.391,"text":"這個人力怎麼運用如何管理各機關也要一點責任去投資分配你意思是說審計室的人力用得太浪費是不是是沒有啦我是說是沒有那為什麼立法院做的決議你們不做呢有啊那那個審計部有邀請證號他有報告然後呢那當然我們會有一些想要釐清的事情會請要多久勒"},{"start":364.38,"end":377.443,"text":"那就如果有要審計部釐清了那看審計部的回應的水準審計部沒有辦法釐清是吧審計部在那裡沒辦法釐清喔有啦他們會會那這公文已經去多久為什麼要去三次呢政府平行部門之間要這麼辛苦喔"},{"start":378.778,"end":395.695,"text":"這樣啦,因為我也諒解...我知道,你不然為難他啦,來他那個總研合法他要控管,所以剛剛有委員要希望調整總研合法應該怎麼做你們來告訴我們嘛,可以嗎?我們立法院會有做的決議,我們會希望不要再有這樣的情形發生嘛,好嗎?"},{"start":396.696,"end":396.916,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":416.329,"end":416.51,"text":"主席主席掌聲"},{"start":428.877,"end":449.626,"text":"我們金門的確也有我們金門的確也有說甚至我們有餘力的時候我們也是幫助金門醫院嘛不無力了對不對我們也補助金門醫院補助金門大學即便我們財政困難看在這些也是金門人在那邊念書金門人在那邊就醫我們還補助中央單位即便我們短處自己很多東西都做不了主計總處主任秘書上來主計長上廁所嘛洗手間那都是你問我啦"},{"start":453.067,"end":457.336,"text":"不然這樣子我問你好 問你之前主計對好 可以問你也可以 來來 主計長陳輝大都上來沒有關係"},{"start":465.874,"end":486.249,"text":"你知道這個離島我們有要求在公共建設部要加三層嘛沒問題嘛但是為什麼請問一下我們離島都不會跟別的縣市比我們都跟離島比你看一下澎湖金門連江同樣是離島縣為什麼我們的人口我們人口比澎湖還多我們14萬他10萬我們的這個"},{"start":488.991,"end":495.246,"text":"我們的土地差不多,比它還大。為什麼每一年的補助款都少澎湖這麼多?我想詢問主計長"},{"start":498.679,"end":518.494,"text":"我要跟委員說明因為在他是沒有收支差短本身我們會設置不是為什麼我們是差不多大的縣市而且我們都是離島是但是有一點我要特別跟委員報告因為我們自籌財源比較多不是你的低收入戶的人口我們會在差不多你只有我們125戶他199戶"},{"start":521.076,"end":541.505,"text":"沒有你只有他們的兩層沒有啦你注意看一下我們中地收入我們125他199對這個部分我們有算了就這個部分就是有關社會福利支出的一個部分為什麼差距是4倍我們賭注差4倍為什麼我們跟朋友你看人口各方差不多我們還比他多人"},{"start":542.205,"end":546.027,"text":"但我們中間收入戶比較少因為這個部分就是低收入戶的相關的我們125戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶�"},{"start":572.543,"end":594.068,"text":"你把資料提供給我,因為我們人口和那個都比他多嘛是是是來,地方的這個公務人員調薪的部分114年軍公交要調3%嘛,明年開始啦88年以來第25年來第二次調薪啦,首度連續第二次那我們這幾年你知道稅入和稅出我們也越來越辛苦了為什麼我們金門縣還是只是補助50%"},{"start":595.492,"end":618.163,"text":"因為我們現在目前就是針對比照113年度條新的一個原則就是它基本收入差短有差短的縣市補助50%沒有差短錢的補助意思就是說別的縣市因為比較沒有努力自籌財源我們很努力沒有差短我們省錢然後我們努力賺錢所以你來處罰我們那我們就是要自己出更多的錢"},{"start":619.283,"end":640.019,"text":"你不鼓勵這種很自己說我們盡量省錢不能做10億沒有因為我們籌不出3億10億的錢我們就不要了對不對我們就不要這個停車場你不鼓勵這種好學生努力向上的學生你就逼大家擺鬧嗎所以委員你的一個一般補助的一個成長是比"},{"start":642.54,"end":664.117,"text":"在排名是第三的是成長比澎湖還要高那還是跟不上吧我們什麼東西都要自己金門縣什麼東西都要自己出比較多沒錯吧自籌款也要比較多補助款又要比人家少然後接著我們還努力的除了自己的縣內的機構以後我們還努力的看中央單位縣立醫院、金門大學、國立單位我們還要幫忙他們"},{"start":668.82,"end":692.621,"text":"所以一般縣市補助的部分我們這麼的努力也跟中央一起的協力卻給我們這麼少的補助款主要是在調劑營需啦所以這個部分如果說自有財源比較高的部分在懲罰好學生的部分好學生有獎勵喔沒有啊我比那個還少這個部分你整個來幫我們我們這個討論很多次了好好的來檢討好不好我們的財力分析方面檢討謝謝委員長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":570,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時30分）謝謝主席，我們請審計長，還有金門縣的審計主任。"],["主席：好，審計長，還有我們金門縣審計室楊大陽主任。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：審計長，我是請金門縣主任站在這裡，但是我想你也很了解我們金門的情形，你知道我們金門……剛剛我聽到吳秉叡委員是說金門有很多什麼賸餘還是怎麼樣，為什麼還要多要錢？我想在這邊讓大家再更了解一下金門現在的財政情形，你知道金門縣去年曾經有爭取到一個停車場的補助費用，你如果不知道，請楊主任回答，有補助到一個停車場大概十幾億的補助，公路總局給我們的，是前兩年爭取到的補助費用，要做兩個停車場，一個在金城國中，一個在中正國小的地下室，可是因為我們必須要有自籌款，但是我們縣政府因為財政開始變困難，所以我們就把這9億、10億的費用退回給公路總局，您知道這件事嗎？審計長知道嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：知道、知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：楊主任知道嗎？是不是確實有這件事情？"],["楊主任大陽：知道、對。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我們怎麼會不想做事，或是我們怎麼會說剩很多錢不想做呢？我們現在是因為不夠錢。審計長，你知道金門的歲入一年多少錢嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一百多億啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：一百多億，對不對？100億到130億嘛！你知道其中金門縣政府自己出了多少錢嗎？金門縣自籌多少，你知道嗎？一百多億裡頭，我們自籌一年自己出多少錢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：自籌44%……"],["陳委員玉珍：40、50啦！，我們一年都自籌40、50億，換句話說，我們的錢很多，應該在全國排名是前幾名吧？自籌的部分排名應該是在前幾名嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：在前面的。"],["陳委員玉珍：一定是在前幾名，我們當然現在沒有負債也是因為我們都懂得怎麼撙節開支，但是的確是財源越來越困難，所以我們現在才會有一些沒有辦法做的事情，我想請問主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳委員玉珍：我先把審計問完好了，主計長等一下。","審計長，有關審計的人力分配問題，我想跟你們請教，你們的工作包括監督預算、審定決算，有關你們的人力分配，像嘉義、澎湖、金門的人力，嘉義市15個人，澎湖縣13人，你看監督的預算數，嘉義市五百多億，澎湖縣四百多億，金門縣719億，你看一下，我們金門縣審計室的人力只有13個人，我們審的預算、監督的預算比澎湖、比嘉義多很多，意思是說，我們在金門的審計人力平均監督的預算數比較高，如果這種工作負擔差距這麼大，是不是整體人員的資源運用就不容易？更何況金門是離島，很多人說不定還不想過去，所以這個部分的制度上，你是不是應該考慮要怎麼調整才會有一個合理性？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，你講到我的痛處，我的人力，每個縣市都十幾個人，不足人家一個科。"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以，法律有給我法定下限，我這些都沒有達到法定下限，所以我們……現在社會上期許……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有人要做嗎？沒有人要做，還是怎樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有員額。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有員額？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有預算員額。"],["陳委員玉珍：你要主動爭取啊，像在我們金門我就覺得非常不公……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：大院幫我們做決議，我也去申請，但是剛剛有委員在講總員額法，人事總處……"],["陳委員玉珍：人事總處不願意就對了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它有總員額法的限制，所以它給我了，每個人都會向它要……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們人力嚴重不足嘛！你就不擔心、人事總處就不擔心審計單位可能會發生公務人員過勞？這也算霸凌啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有、倒也不會啦……"],["陳委員玉珍：人事總處就不擔心嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它因為有總員額法的問題，所以我也體諒它，它要管制……"],["陳委員玉珍：你體諒它，我們沒有辦法體諒你，因為我們金門縣員額太少。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般都是希望審計人員越少越好啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有、沒有，我們的審計人員太少，你回去研究一下我們金門縣為什麼這麼少。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我是這樣啦，這個我已經向人事總處反映，因為大院有作決議，希望能夠增加員額給我們，我已經去了兩次公文，我會再去第三次，看看有沒有……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，要不要我們再開個專案會議來解決這個問題？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果沒有的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：人事總處有來？副人事長，請上來一下，暫停一下，請他上來，副人事長有在這裡。"],["主席：人事行政總處副人事長。"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：副人事長，請問一下，萬一發生過勞致死，這算霸凌的一種，你們不用考慮這個情形嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：人力怎麼應用、如何管理，各機關也有一點責任去妥適運用……"],["陳委員玉珍：你的意思是審計室的這個人力用得太浪費，是不是？"],["李副人事長秉洲：沒有啦，我是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：是沒有？為什麼立法院作的決議，你們不作呢？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有啊！審計部有要請增，它有報過來我們人事總處……"],["陳委員玉珍：然後呢？"],["李副人事長秉洲：當然我們有一些想要釐清的事情會請……"],["陳委員玉珍：要多久呢？"],["李副人事長秉洲：如果有要審計部釐清的，那看審計部回應的速度……"],["陳委員玉珍：審計部沒有辦法釐清，是不是？審計部在那裡，沒辦法釐清？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有啦，他們會釐清。"],["陳委員玉珍：這公文已經去多久，為什麼要去三次呢？政府平行部門之間要這麼辛苦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這樣啦，因為我諒解……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道你不能為難它啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為總員額法，它要控管，所以剛剛有委員希望調整總員額法……"],["陳委員玉珍：應該怎麼做，你們來告訴我們嘛！可以嗎？我們立法院也會作決議，我們希望不要再有這樣情形發生，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是法律有給我法定下限的員額，我也要求不多……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們請主席……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們每個單位……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：每個單位，我都希望能……像金門……"],["陳委員玉珍：針對審計處審計人力的部分，我們請人事總處是不是一個月給我整個報告，可以吧？一個月，沒問題吧？好。","我們現在請主計長，所以審計長在這裡，針對金門的這個部分，我們的確沒有……"],["主席：主計長……"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道我們金門的確也有……甚至我們有餘力的時候，我們也是幫助金門醫院，不遺餘力，對不對？我們也補助金門醫院、補助金門大學，即便我們財政困難，看在這些也是金門人在那邊念書、在金門這邊就醫，我們還補助中央單位，即便我們短絀，自己有很多東西都做不了。"],["主席：主計總處主任秘書上來。"],["陳委員玉珍：主計長去洗手間嗎？"],["主席：主計長上廁所，你總是要補上來啦。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒關係，你問我啦。"],["主席：不能這樣子。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我問你，問你也可以。主計長……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我等他……"],["陳委員玉珍：能回答的都上來，沒有關係。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：來了。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道離島有要求在公共建設的部分要加三成，沒問題嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒問題嘛。我們離島都不會跟別的縣市比，我們都跟離島比齁，你看一下，澎湖、金門、連江同樣是離島縣，我們的人口比澎湖還多，我們14萬，它10萬；我們的土地差不多，我也比它還大，為什麼每一年的補助款都輸澎湖這麼多，都少澎湖這麼多？我想請問主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要跟委員說明，因為它是沒有收支差短，本身我們會……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，為什麼？我們是差不多大的縣市，而且我們都是離島。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是有一點，我要特別跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我們自籌財源比較多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，你低收入戶的人口，我們會讓……"],["陳委員玉珍：差不多啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，你只有……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們125戶，它199戶。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，你只有他們的兩成。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啦，你注意看一下，中低收入戶我們125戶，它199戶。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分我們有算了，這個部分就是有關社會福利支出的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼差距是4倍？我們的補助差4倍，為什麼？我們跟澎湖，人口各方面都差不多，我們還比它多人，當然我們中低收入戶比較少。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這一個部分就是低收入戶相關的……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們是125戶，它199戶，差不多。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，澎湖是一萬九百多，你們是一千九百多，所以才占它的兩成。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，我們這裡面都有相關的數據，所以這個部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你把這些一般性補助款細項的補助額度的計算基礎給我們好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。我們再送給委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼我們的補助差他們這麼多，社會福利我們就差4倍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為低收入戶……"],["陳委員玉珍：你把資料提供給我，因為我們的人口和土地都比它多嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：再來，地方公務人員調薪的部分，114年軍公教要調3%，明年開始生效，是從88年迄今25年來首度連續2年調薪。你知道這幾年的歲入和歲出，我們也越來越辛苦了，為什麼我們金門現在還只是補助50%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們目前比照113年度調薪的原則，基本收入有差短的縣市補助50%，沒有差短的縣市全額補助。"],["陳委員玉珍：意思就是，別的縣市因為比較沒有努力自籌財源，我們很努力，沒有差短，我們省錢、努力賺錢，所以你來處罰我們，我們就是要自己出更多的錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不鼓勵這種自己說儘量省錢，因為我們籌不出3億、10億的錢，我們就不要，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們就不要這個停車場，縣政府就不要停車場。你不鼓勵這種好學生、努力向上的學生？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們鼓勵、我們鼓勵……"],["陳委員玉珍：你就逼大家擺爛嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，一般補助的縣市成長，你們在排名是第三，成長比澎湖還要高。"],["陳委員玉珍：但還是跟不上嘛！金門縣什麼東西都要自己出比較多，沒錯吧？自籌款也要比較多，補助款又比人家少，接著我們還努力了，除了自己縣內的機構以外，我們還努力看中央單位、縣立醫院、金門大學等國立單位，我們還要幫忙他們，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以一般縣市補助的部分主要……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們這麼努力，也跟中央一起協力，卻給我們這麼少的補助款。"],["陳主計長淑姿：主要是在調劑盈虛，所以這個部分，如果自有財源比較高的部分，在一般性……"],["陳委員玉珍：懲罰好學生？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好學生有獎勵，也有獎勵，所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啊！你看我們比那個還少，這個部分，你整個來幫我們，我們討論這個很多次了，好好來檢討，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：有關我們的財力分級方面啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們也會一併檢討，謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝主計長。"],["主席：謝謝玉珍委員。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579666c380f209f09e788a85017ab97aa926f6f2411ecd13e000b8c182ccf94525d475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:29:51 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我想要請李美主委請李主委早大家都很關注烏貝爾義跟福潘達的這個結合案"},{"start":28.291,"end":52.591,"text":"那想要請問主委什麼時候你們的審查會完結是不是他提出申請6個月就要轉播了他提出來如果文件齊備我們是11月8號文件已經齊備了照我們的法律規定是30天之內公平會要做出決定工作日30天的工作日要做出決定那必要的時候可以再延長90個工作日"},{"start":54.504,"end":62.73,"text":"90天的工作日,總共就是90天,如果算的話12月19日是30天的審查期間到,所以代表說還有兩個月,是不是?"},{"start":71.377,"end":77.144,"text":"12月19再加兩個月如果委員會有決議要再延長的話就再延長60個工作天應該是到3月21號3月21號那有沒有辦法在這個任期內"},{"start":91.88,"end":98.783,"text":"我盡量努力朝這個方向但是還要看委員會對本案討論的情形是什麼樣才能夠確定對 如果這個結合案就是如同你剛才所說的他所有的資料都不在台灣"},{"start":119.123,"end":137.375,"text":"這樣子怎麼樣子叫他立即的提供審查藉由這樣子因為剛才我們提到了對於UberEats這個平台的非常多的資料不管是他的行銷的方案也好我想請問主委你有沒有用過"},{"start":139.093,"end":164.305,"text":"你有沒有用過這個APP?有,我有用過這個APP其實我也覺得在使用上面我看到了相關的民眾使用的就是說在點餐後或者是要去用這個平台其實在裡面有非常多的設計是你沒有辦法立即去的例如你可能叫了以後沒有"},{"start":166.166,"end":191.553,"text":"發言錯誤或什麼的要申訴的時候都有相關非常多的不便利處那如果這個平台的管理者不在臺灣的時候未來連Uber Eats跟Foodpanda兩個結合以後它成為臺灣最大的外送平台以後那怎麼樣子保障消費者的權益這也是一個非常重要的審查要點是不是"},{"start":192.173,"end":216.736,"text":"我想在整個結合案件我們最主要是看對競爭秩序的影響比如說市場集中度的改變那比如說有沒有這個因為市場集中的有沒有這個抬高價格的能力會不會跟其他業者有聯合的情形當然還有包括餐廳消費者將來跟他議價談判的能力這一些我們都會一起考量"},{"start":217.396,"end":232.371,"text":"對 如果他的管理單位不在臺灣的時候他的管理單位不在臺灣的時候我們臺灣的所有的消費者我們臺灣所有的外送員怎麼樣子來透過"},{"start":233.732,"end":259.606,"text":"就是說跟這個管理部門來談這些事情連你們要跟他要資料都這麼困難的情況下臺灣的消費者怎麼跟他談是不是他的他是外商公司但是沒有辦法豁免臺灣法律的約束所以這在我們整個過程剛才有提到說不定資料的提供會稍微慢一點但是無礙於他應該遵守我們中華民國的法律"},{"start":260.676,"end":288.133,"text":"對可是我是說像其實外送是及時的嘛那在這個部分我認為他們沒有辦法及時在處理這個所有消費者的權利以及外送員的權利這個部分你一定要去處理嘛是不是在這個結合案的審查的時候你就要提出來嘛那才能會讓大家知道公平會有在保護我們台灣消費者的權益啊是不是"},{"start":288.433,"end":298.96,"text":"這些都有請這個結合雙方提出說明那我們會中整所有的不管是利害關係人或是結合事業的所有的這個資料會通盤來考量"},{"start":301.099,"end":322.322,"text":"為什麼你講話那麼保守啊你都沒有行使你作為主委的這個你怎麼講話那麼保守啊因為我們是委員會制每一位委員本於他的專業獨立行使職權所以這個案子的判斷還是要在委員會裡面討論可是你必須要把這些消費者的意見"},{"start":323.562,"end":346.068,"text":"這些意見一定會帶進去因為他的管理方就在香港然後他的平台我們都透過這個平台那在及時的反映這些消費者的意見以及外送員在反映勞工的權益的時候怎麼樣保障 是不是是 這個都會一起調量"},{"start":347.068,"end":376.207,"text":"怎麼樣子加速他提供資料的時間以及他回應的時間嗎不能再以他的外送管理部門在國外不在臺灣這樣子的情況來回就是說來反映說他的延遲性的提供資料嗎是不是基本上我們會權衡他主張的理由他這個主張的期限是不是這個適合那當然如果期限到沒有補正我們也有其他的措施可以處理"},{"start":376.907,"end":396.615,"text":"還有我再一個問題就是目前以夜市的廣告的確發生了是不是有逐年增加的就是說有關於詐騙的是相關的透過平台有這個詐騙廣告的行為現在看起來是相當的是不是有逐年增加"},{"start":397.535,"end":414.991,"text":"那這個部分依照你們是不是還依照通傳會的這個網際網路內容管理基本規範及分工原則來分工基本上政府如果有一些跨部會要合作的都會照這個分工來做還是按照那個分工是不是"},{"start":416.032,"end":432.488,"text":"對於這個網路上的監控我們也有我們主動比較著重在不實廣告如果發現有詐騙的行為我們會以夜市的廣告是屬於你們還是屬於哪一個我們要看廣告的內容如果他這個廣告有不實廣告的情形公平會會主動監控去處理"},{"start":434.89,"end":457.695,"text":"所以只要是一頁式的廣告只要是不實廣告就是你們公平會會主動去查核是不是不分內容是不是要看它廣告的內容如果它是要那當然這要到衛福部去處理如果它是金融投資等等那就到金管會去所以要看它廣告的產品的屬性來判斷由何機關來處理"},{"start":459.955,"end":486.684,"text":"那一般性的沒有特別法去主管的這些商品的廣告如果有不實公平會會處理所以除了其他單位業管的就是按照這個NCC這個辦法處理嗎就是其他單位業管以外的所有都是公平會來處理是不是可以這麼說那希望公平會積極辦理好不好是這個一夜市的廣告影響的所有很多民眾被詐騙"},{"start":488.104,"end":490.386,"text":"我是說你要趕快積極處理嘛你要先初步瞭解不然你怎麼移送是不是好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時30分）謝謝主席，我想請李鎂主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：早。大家都很關注Uber Eats跟foodpanda的結合案，想請問主委什麼時候你們的審查會完竣？是不是它提出申請六個月之內就要准駁了？"],["李主任委員鎂：它提出來如果文件齊備，11月8日文件已經齊備了，照我們的法律規定是30天工作日之內公平會要作出決定，必要時可以再延長60天的工作日，所以總共就是90天。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以是12月19日？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果算的話，12月19日是30天的審查期間到。"],["謝委員衣鳯：30天的審查期間到？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以代表還有2個月，是不是？12月19日再加2個月嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：今天是28日……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是說12月19日再加2個月是最後期限。"],["李主任委員鎂：如果我們委員會有決議要再延長的話，就是再延長60個工作天，最長到3月21日。"],["謝委員衣鳯：3月21日？那有沒有辦法在你這個任期內審查完畢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我儘量努力，但是要看委員會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你這個任期是到1月31日嘛！是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那有沒有辦法在你這個任期內完成？"],["李主任委員鎂：我儘量朝這個方向來努力，但是還要看委員會對本案討論的情形是什麼樣才能夠確定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，這個結合案就如同你剛才所說的，它所有的資料都不在臺灣，這樣要怎麼叫他們立即提供審查？"],["李主任委員鎂：他們的資料已經齊備了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：藉由這樣子……因為剛才我們提到，對於Uber Eats這個平台的非常多資料，不管是它的行銷方案也好……我想請問主委，你有沒有用過這個app？"],["李主任委員鎂：有，我有用過外送平台。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你有用過這個app？"],["李主任委員鎂：嗯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實我看到民眾點餐後或者是要去使用這個平台的時候，發現有非常多設計是沒有辦法立即連結過去的，例如你可能叫餐以後發現錯誤等等，要申訴的時候都有非常多不便之處，如果這個平台的管理者不在臺灣的話，未來Uber Eats和foodpanda兩個結合，成為臺灣最大的外送平台以後，要怎麼樣保障消費者的權益？這也是一個非常重要的審查要點，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：這整個結合案件，我們最主要是看它對競爭程序的影響，譬如說市場集中度的改變，或者因為市場集中，有沒有抬高價格的能力，以及會不會跟其他業者有聯合的情形，當然還包括餐廳、消費者將來跟它議價、談判的能力，這些我們都會一起考量。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，如果它的管理單位不在臺灣的話，我們臺灣所有的消費者和外送員要怎麼樣來跟管理部門談這些事情？連公平會跟他們要資料都這麼困難了，臺灣的消費者要怎麼跟它談？是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：它是外商公司，但是沒有辦法豁免臺灣法律的約束，所以這整個過程，剛才我有提到，說不定資料的提供會稍微慢一點，但是無礙它應該遵守我們中華民國的法律。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對！但我的意思是，外送是即時的嘛！我認為他們沒有辦法即時處理所有消費者及外送員的權益問題，對於這個部分，你一定要去處理嘛！是不是？在這個結合案的審查時，你就要提出來，才能讓大家知道公平會有在保護我們臺灣消費者的權益啊！是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：這些都有請結合雙方提出說明，我們會綜整利害關係人和結合事業的所有資料，通盤來考量。"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼你講話那麼保守？你都沒有行使你做為主委的……你怎麼講話這麼保守？"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員，因為我們是委員會制，每一位委員本於他的專業獨立行使職權，所以這個案子的判斷還是要在委員會裡面討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，可是你必須把這些消費者的意見帶回去嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：這些意見一定會帶進去，我們才能……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這些意見一定會帶進去嘛！因為他們的管理方就在香港，我們透過這個平台即時反映消費者的意見，外送員也在反映勞工的權益，這些要怎麼樣保障？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個都會一起考量。"],["謝委員衣鳯：然後是怎麼樣加速它提供資料的時間以及回應的時間，不能再以他們的外送管理部門在國外、不在臺灣的情況而延遲提供資料嘛！是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上我們會權衡它主張的理由和期間是否適合，當然，如果期限到而沒有補正，我們也有其他的措施可以處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：另外一個問題是，目前一頁式廣告的確發生和詐騙相關的事情，這部分是否在逐年增加當中？"],["李主任委員鎂：透過平台有詐騙廣告的行為，現在看起來是相當常見。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是逐年增加？這個部分你們是不是還依照通傳會的網際網路內容管理基本規範及分工原則來分工？"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上政府如果有一些跨部會要合作的，都會照這個分工來做。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是按照那個分工，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：對於網路上的監控，我們也有做，我們比較著重在不實廣告，如果發現有詐騙的行為，我們會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：一頁式的廣告是屬於你們還是屬於哪一個單位？"],["李主任委員鎂：要看廣告的內容，如果這個廣告有不實廣告的情形，公平會會主動監控去處理……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以一頁式的廣告只要是不實廣告，你們公平會就會主動去查核，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是！如果有詐騙……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不分內容，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：要看它廣告的內容，如果是藥，當然要由衛福部去處理；如果是金融投資等等，就到金管會去。所以要看它廣告的產品屬性來判斷由何機關處理。一般性的、沒有特別法去主管的商品廣告，如果有不實，公平會會處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以除了其他單位列管的，就是按照NCC這個辦法處理嘛！就是其他單位列管以外的所有部分，都是公平會來處理，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：可以這麼說。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那希望公平會積極辦理，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是！"],["謝委員衣鳯：一頁式廣告造成很多民眾被詐騙，你們是不是應該積極辦理？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，如果是詐騙，那已經涉及刑事責任了，如果是一般商品服務的不實廣告，沒有特別的目的事業主管機關管理，公平會會處理，但是它如果涉及刑事案件，譬如說詐欺……"],["謝委員衣鳯：當然，那就要移送嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們就會移送。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對！我就是說你要趕快積極處理嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們要先初步瞭解，不然怎麼移送？是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯代）：現在請呂玉玲召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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Tide我們看到都只有油門沒有煞車這個問題就是我們今天要點出的一個問題在往前衝的一個過程當中我們要有所保留我們要有所追著跑的一個技術進行也要有適當的煞車讓AI在適應的一個過程當中讓全民來做一個學習主委您認同我說的嗎認同認同"},{"start":436.328,"end":437.449,"text":"國科會有一個很重要職責就是管轄科技園區對吧?"},{"start":453.985,"end":459.63,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度"},{"start":480.054,"end":495.537,"text":"三個科學都非常重要我知道你會這樣說主委當然都說很重要但我要問2023年南科的整體營業額衰退了我們看到對不起南科的整體營業額是1.58兆竹科是1.4兆中科不到1兆"},{"start":496.69,"end":511.776,"text":"我要提到一個問題只剩9300多億所以可以整體看到中科衰退的整體營業額是19.78請問主委心中同樣重要的科學園區為什麼科學園區的營業額成長有些卻大幅的衰落"},{"start":512.898,"end":513.538,"text":"因為南科現在有機體電路的一個產業穩健支撐"},{"start":533.364,"end":547.098,"text":"但是再回過頭來看中科如果那邊的土地用地取得現在順利的話我們現在二期已經在進行當中順利的話下一階段的先進制程就會在中科了那他的這個銀額馬上就會衝上來"},{"start":548.72,"end":571.166,"text":"好所以我們現在希望的是因為我是來自中部所以本期的選區民眾都很關心中科的工作機會以及薪資的一個問題我想營業額一定會帶動到相關的一個生活我們都關注的一個議題所以國科會對於中科衰退的一個具體要怎麼做你二期的這相關的土地取得有沒有相關的期程協助招商引資技術轉型以及國家級的計畫"},{"start":571.886,"end":573.807,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時27分）謝謝召委，有請吳主委。"],["主席：吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委好。主委加政委，我想能力越大，責任越大。主委，我想跟您請問一下，剛剛其實葛委員也非常關心這個AI人工智慧基本法的草案，既然你已經是政委加主委，我想接受到我們的關懷，一定會更加強而有力，因為你眾所期待。這個AI基本法現在已經送進行政院，每個人都在問何時會送到立法院，當然剛剛有很多的關心，你說是明年第1會期，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我希望。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以今年年底基本上很難，我想在法制作業的過程當中，在任何一部法案產出的過程，行政院在審查之前都會要求各部會做這個法規的影響評估，請問法規影響評估有做了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：法規的影響評估？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，各部會對於這個法規的影響評估，法制作業都會有這樣子的一個過程，請問一下你們有做了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們法規會……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，麥克風沒有收音，我沒有聽到。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有做了，好。主委，剛剛沒有進入狀況，沒關係，我們慢慢來，我們希望我們今天的會談是健康的，一起探討這些事情。這個法規的影響評估會後是不是可以給教文委員會所有的委員各一份資料呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想我們都很關心AI基本法，這樣子的過程有沒有法規影響，到底它影響的層面有多深。主委，你有聽過通用型的人工智慧嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有聽過。"],["羅委員廷瑋：通用型人工智慧就是AGI，這個多一個G，它所代表的是和一般人一樣具備意識、感性或者是知識、自覺的能力，跟任務型的不太一樣。我個人認為有些任務型的還不是很好用，只能夠幫我設置鬧鐘或者是編排一些簡單的行事曆，這個部分我們要特別看到，通用型的人工智慧並不會侷限在某個特定的任務或是領域上，它想幹嘛就能幹嘛。但是國際上都有爭論，OpenAI認為2到3年就會誕生，黃仁勳評估通用型的在5年內會登場。針對這樣的情勢，本席想問兩個問題，我們是否做好通用型AI的準備？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我想科研的發展一定會持續進行，會越變越好，目前來講，通用型AI，第一、浪費太多能源；第二、它的準確度跟人比起來還是差滿多的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以到底多久能夠成熟，也是看各國發展的狀況。因為要研究通用型AI需要的法規限制會更多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，可是未來有這樣的情況令人堪憂，一些科技大老都在講，通用型的AI可能5年內會成形，不管是雛形或者已經成形，包括我們現在自己做的TAIDE，到底是任務型、通用型或者是準備迎接通用型，我們都希望國科會一定要在這個部分有所準備。國科會在受訪時指出，臺灣未來3年要編列300億發展AI，其中包含通用型的AI發展嗎？或者是通用型準備的應對策略？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們AI的研究沒有限制，所以只要學界提出來想研究的主題，一般都不會限制。不管是特用型的、專用型的，還是通用型的AI模型開發，我們都會支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：藉由今天這一場質詢，我希望能夠再提醒主委，AI的發展速度很快，昨天好好的，可能睡一覺起來就翻天覆地。針對這個部分，我們希望國科會未來在你的主政之下，以及你又是政委，是不是在法規上能夠再快？我想您是政委要負責協調，我們是AI內閣，這是賴總統說的，可是不要讓國人感覺到是想要AI的內閣。既然已經期許自己是AI內閣，我們希望看到的是速度，而且能夠更加準確並追得上國際進度。","第二個問題，我想再請問一下，我們現在使用的是生成式AI。主委，你知道有很多學生會用AI來學習英文嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在這種工具已經蠻普遍了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席隨便google一下就可以發現，前四則都是贊助商的廣告，這是現在一個很主流、學英文的方式。您可以看一下，背後也有大量的資源在挹注，這是我們google搜尋AI所出現的關鍵廣告。本席想問的是，生成式AI對小朋友有沒有影響？您個人認為呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：它是一個工具，但是這個工具的準確度，有時候是很難去評估。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們擔心準確度，甚至擔心它提供的東西是有問題的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是不正確的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：甚至是超過他年齡所能夠去學習的。根據聯合國教科文組織頒布的生成式人工智慧在教育和研究的應用指南中指出，生成式的AI最低使用年齡是13歲，部分歐洲國家甚至覺得太低了，還提高到16歲，就是為了避免危害兒童權益，以及學習、接觸到不適當的內容、隱私的暴露，還有相關的教科文組織調查，全球只有不到10%擁有生成式AI的相關指南。請問主委，我們是10%那邊，還是90%那邊？看起來是10%，對吧？大方的承認，沒關係。承認問題、解決問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：到底是幾趴，我們沒有實際統計。"],["羅委員廷瑋：請問一下，我們有這樣的指南嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們就是那個10%，對不對？我們今天真的點出了問題，主委可以給我承諾嗎？你們能不能做這樣的教育指南？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這部分我們會去研究，我們應該會跟教育部一起來合作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：教育部有推出中小學校長數位學習領導的指引，裡面是說遵守適應、適性、適齡，在課堂上不要讓13歲以下的學生使用一般的生成式AI。但是課堂外呢？我要點出的問題來了，課堂外呢？我們看起來，課堂外是不是有待精進？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員提醒，這部分我們會來進行。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們看到現在很多都是口號，像剛剛我說的AI內閣，但是臺灣生成式AI──TAIDE，我們看到都只有油門，沒有煞車，這個就是我們今天要點出的問題。在往前衝的過程當中，我們要有所保留，我們要有追著跑的技術進行，也要有適當的煞車，讓AI在適應的過程當中，讓全民來學習。主委，您認同我說的嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：認同。我們會跟教育部來討論這個事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是不是能夠趕快？課堂內、課堂外，都應該要有這樣的教育指引，這個要特別拜託。","另外，我想科技園區的大小眼，我必須要精準的點出來。國科會有一個很重要的職責就是管轄科技園區，對吧？塑造高品質的研發、生成以及生產工作、生活與休閒、一般區域的人性化環境，科學園區也是我國科技發展的重要指標，在科學園區的經驗累積會形成示範效果以及技術的擴散，帶動整體臺灣經濟繁榮。現在有竹科、中科、南科，主委可不可以評比一下，你認為哪一個科學園區對臺灣比較重要？"],["吳主任委員誠文：三個科學園區都非常重要。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道你會這樣說，主委當然都說很重要，但我要問，2023年南科的整體營業額是1.58兆，竹科是1.4兆，中科不到1兆，我要提到的問題是只剩九千三百多億，所以可以看到中科衰退的整體營業額是19.78%。請問主委心中同樣重要的科學園區，為什麼科學園區的營業額成長有些卻大幅衰落？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在努力，因為半導體製造產業一定要一直不斷輪流去蓋新的前瞻製程廠，原來竹科最先進，後來中科是最先進，再來是南科最先進……"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為南科現在有積體電路產業穩健支撐！"],["吳主任委員誠文：再回過頭來看中科，我們現在二期已經在進行當中，如果那邊的土地、用地取得順利的話，下一階段的先進製程就會在中科了，它的營業額馬上就會衝上來。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為我來自中部，所以本席選區的民眾都很關心中科的工作機會以及薪資的問題。營業額一定會帶動到我們都關注生活相關的議題，所以國科會對於中科衰退，具體要怎麼做，二期的土地取得有沒有相關的期程，包括協助招商引資、技術轉型以及國家級的計畫，會後我一定會持續追蹤。我希望你現在有任何的資料、有任何具體的計畫，會後是不是能夠提供給我？而且你能夠在現場給我承諾，對於中科未來的前景，會更加重視嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我當然重視，現在我們努力在讓中科擴……"],["主席：主委，會後再把資料、詳細的情況給委員，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，會後會提供……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你要給我承諾！中科……"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。主委，請回。","接下來有請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\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能一樣是沒有經過檢驗合格的東西有可能是啊"},{"start":436.263,"end":439.366,"text":"主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊"},{"start":463.547,"end":464.768,"text":"民眾如果向我們檢舉我們就會來裁罰"},{"start":491.926,"end":512.963,"text":"我知道啦,我想說你如果去買到啦,也不知道你買到沒經驗入家的東西會怎麼樣?買的部分我們沒有...不是啦,那這個產品有什麼危害啦?如果假設這個產品它所發射的電波啊,會干擾到其他的這些合法電波的使用的話,那其實是有危害啊,已經非常發生的就是那個...第一個它有電波干擾問題嘛"},{"start":514.574,"end":516.695,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":535.114,"end":536.694,"text":"主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":562.662,"end":580.023,"text":"你只是叫他下架不要在這個不要在這個電商繼續賣委員這個下架也是很重要的策略那可能用其他管道再上架不行那個再上架的話再上架的話將來我們會啊就就賣家的這部分我們會啊看看要怎麼樣來處理來加強取締啦我先問你這個地方跟一些平台業者"},{"start":581.385,"end":585.488,"text":"議員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":610.689,"end":610.97,"text":"林俊憲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時24分）謝謝主席，本席邀請工程委員會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：主委好。主委，有一件事情需要請主委來協助幫忙支持，臺南東山區有一座橋梁叫做東原2號橋，它現在毀損非常嚴重，主要就是10月有一個颱風康芮颱風，對這座橋梁造成重大的傷害，然後最近又有連續的地震，所以現在整個橋梁的橋墩，你看它的橋面已經斷裂了，橋墩也已經扭曲了，所以現在這座橋封閉了，已經封起來沒有辦法再通行了。但是這條橋很重要，因為它跨過龜重溪，附近大概有好幾百戶，至少三百戶人家必須要靠這條橋進出，更重要的是東山的這條東原2號橋是附近農產品出入很重要的一個通道。臺南的東山盛產柑橘類，柑橘、柳丁、椪柑，東山是最重要的產區，所以現在臺南市政府即將要提出來用災損，就是颱風的災損經費來提報，我不曉得工程會，是不是這一點請陳主委能夠來予以支持？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員。這是屬於公共設施，因為是災損，如果臺南市政府因為經費不足，有提報中央來支援的話，只要提報過來，我們會儘速來安排現勘跟審查，審查通過之後，行政院就會撥款給臺南市政府自行發包。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那我也會請臺南市政府趕快送件。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["林委員俊憲：這件事情就我了解，臺南市政府相關的評估資料大概也準備得差不多了。"],["陳主任委員金德：大概好像11月底左右會完成這些資料，應該會送來，我們會儘速來安排現勘跟審查。"],["林委員俊憲：好。很感謝主委對這件事情也稍微有所掌握，當臺南市政府送案的時候，後續的行政作業程序也請工程會能夠予以協助，儘速完成審核趕快撥款，趕快來重建這條橋，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["林委員俊憲：那我們就感謝陳主委，陳主委請回。","主席，本席邀請NCC黃主秘。主秘，你來。"],["主席：請黃主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：主秘，辛苦了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：應該的，分內之事。"],["林委員俊憲：請教一個關於民生的問題，一般我們買的電子設備，就算個人用品，只要有射頻，就是有WiFi、有藍牙，其實基本上這些產品都必須先送NCC審核通過，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["林委員俊憲：按照電信管理法第六十六條第一項規定，這種有射頻的，不管什麼東西，只要有射頻的產品……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們有公告要管制的項目，並不是所有的。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道。如果你賣的東西是沒有經過審驗合格的電信管制射頻器材，我們是有罰則的，最高一件可以罰20萬。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["林委員俊憲：但是我稍微了解了一下，這部分受理檢舉的案件非常多，你看每一年都有幾萬件。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["林委員俊憲：2022年沒有經過審核就在市面販售的有射頻的器材，你看受理檢舉案件有2萬7,766件，2023年更多，高達兩萬八千五百多件，2024年（今年）大概到7月，差不多半年就有兩萬兩千件左右，為什麼那麼多檢舉案件？有那麼多的黑心產品嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：其實不是，因為大概他們都是在網路上面，有些廠商互相在檢舉對方的，這種很多。"],["林委員俊憲：互相檢舉？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對。"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告，因為那部分有一些是經過認證之後，但是標示不清楚，而我們的規範是它要標示合格標籤，所以這些檢舉案裡面也有內含有合格標籤的……"],["林委員俊憲：那違法的案件也應該逐年降低吧？難道廠商都不知道嗎？廠商也知道……"],["蔡處長國棟：廠商我們這一段就是……"],["林委員俊憲：這種程序應該怎麼走，對不對？那每一年受理檢舉案數量都居高不下，然後裁罰的案件又特別少。"],["蔡處長國棟：我們有協調數位部，針對電商平臺上面在揭露的事情可以幫忙，然後另外跟海關那邊……"],["林委員俊憲：你看，檢舉兩萬八千多件，只裁罰2件。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們其實……"],["林委員俊憲：我也很懷疑，你有能力處理兩、三萬件的檢舉案嗎？這不可能。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：其實這裡面有很多是重複的，這是一個。第二個……"],["林委員俊憲：那重複，為什麼數字會那麼高？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為它是不同時間、不同人檢舉同一個產品……"],["林委員俊憲：這樣哪有算重複？它本來就不能賣嘛。不然你說重複，有多少數量是重複的？既然重複，你的數字為什麼不扣掉？"],["蔡處長國棟：沒有重複的……"],["林委員俊憲：這個數字是你給我的！"],["蔡處長國棟：對，應該是在那個產品本身，它在標示上不清楚的時候，它會重新再上去，在這種情形發生，但是應該我們的受理件數裡面不會有所謂重複。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：就是這裡應該說是「受理檢舉數」，那「立案數」其實是另外一個數字，它沒有把這個立案數標出來，也就是說……"],["林委員俊憲：你自己是寫「立案數」，這都是你給我們的資料，你現在還在爭辯說沒有……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是啦！是啦！"],["林委員俊憲：你們這個單位也很奇怪……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：「歹勢」、「歹勢」，因為這個……"],["林委員俊憲：我現在質疑你數字為什麼這麼高，你說沒有，那個寫得不對。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，假設真有這麼高的話，那國內電波資訊一定亂七八糟，那我們發現其實是不會啦。"],["林委員俊憲：是啊。那現在市面上販售的有射頻的器材，到底不合格的是不是像檢舉的那麼多？"],["蔡處長國棟：針對不合格的部分，我們實際上讓它下架大概是兩……以111年跟112年……"],["林委員俊憲：你應該是要求它要來檢驗合格吧？"],["蔡處長國棟：對，我們會……"],["林委員俊憲：比如它在電商上面賣，你要求電商把它下架，問題是它那個東西從別的管道賣，是不是可能一樣是沒有經過檢驗合格的東西？"],["蔡處長國棟：有可能，對。"],["林委員俊憲：是啊！你只是眼不見為淨，你叫他下架不能賣而已，他去別處賣，你自己也不知道。"],["蔡處長國棟：所以我們就是……對，所以我們多次，像明天數位部就會針對電商平臺，對於違規或違禁品……"],["林委員俊憲：只有電商平臺在賣嗎？沒有其他的通路嗎？"],["蔡處長國棟：不只、不只，還有其他的管道，那現在的大宗是在電商平臺。"],["林委員俊憲：是啊。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，實體通路部分的話，我們會直接連那個賣場都要負責，所以目前透過實體通路販售的反而是比較少的。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那表示市面上有很多未經檢驗合格的、具有射頻的產品在四處流動販售。我再問你，如果買到沒有檢驗合格的會怎麼樣？"],["蔡處長國棟：如果民眾買到之後向我們檢舉，我們就會來裁罰。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，我是說你如果去買到，萬一你買到沒有檢驗合格的東西會怎樣？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：買的部分我們沒有，我們……"],["蔡處長國棟：沒有罰則。"],["林委員俊憲：不是啦！我問的是這個產品有什麼危害啦。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：如果假設這個產品它有發射電波，會干擾到其他的這些合法電波的使用的話，其實是有危害的，以前最常發生的就是那個……"],["林委員俊憲：對，第一個它有電波干擾的問題嘛。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["林委員俊憲：會不會有什麼個資的問題，也沒人知道嘛？"],["蔡處長國棟：個資，因為那是資安上的問題，我們處理的是電波干擾的問題……"],["林委員俊憲：會不會有資安上的問題，也是隱憂嘛？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：個資問題的話，事實上最多的就是最近在講的偽基地台。"],["林委員俊憲：我是要跟你說，這個問題看起來你沒有處理，這樣看的話，你只是叫它下架而已。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，這個還是會有處罰，不是只有下架。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道你有處罰，一年罰2件。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，因為我們主要……"],["林委員俊憲：檢舉數量兩萬七千多件，你只罰2件。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有，可能要把這個數字要再弄正確。"],["林委員俊憲：那你這樣也算有處理喔？罰款國庫收入5萬。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，跟委員報告，最主要是我們不要讓電波秩序遭受到危害，處罰其實是手段，假設你……"],["林委員俊憲：當然你不要讓它造成危害，問題是你只叫它下架，不要在這個電商繼續賣……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員，這個下架也是很重要的措施。"],["林委員俊憲：那它可能用其他的管道再上架。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不行，那個再上架的話……"],["林委員俊憲：你怎麼知道？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：再上架的話，將來我們會就賣家的部分看看要怎麼樣來處理，來加強取締。"],["林委員俊憲：我希望你這個地方跟一些平臺業者要再密切合作一下……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，了解。"],["林委員俊憲：它不是下架而已，這個廠商應該要通報吧！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們就……"],["林委員俊憲：你應該直接警告這個廠商，告訴他你已經賣了一個沒有經過檢驗、非法的東西，請你要趕快送驗，你如果再賣的話，我只要再看到，我就處罰你。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是是是，就這個部分的話，可能我們自己在法令上也要再研究一下，也就是賣的跟協助賣的要不要負責任，這部分我們會再研究。"],["林委員俊憲：好，因為時間的問題，謝謝主秘。謝謝主席。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的發言。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時34分）","繼續開會（10時44分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來邀請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財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C那麼重的委員所以今天有兩個要求第一個要求希望祖密可以對這個議題稍微深入一點的了解讓我們這個國家重要建設、高雄重要建設這個韌性建設跟AI的發展可以將來順利的進行這是第一件事希望祖密可以去了解一下第二件事就是希望"},{"start":616.518,"end":623.904,"text":"今天如果不管是公部門還是你們去鼓勵任何的私部門其實我都不排斥我只要有一家"},{"start":625.353,"end":650.494,"text":"我只要有任務完成,那這個任務完成,我就可以接受,是不是拜託NCC努力一點,幫忙完成。希望說NCC可以化被動為主動,主動出擊,幫我解決這個我們高雄的需求,國家的韌性建設的需求,這樣好不好。好,了解,我也努力辦到。好,OK,好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":349,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時13分）謝謝主席，請NCC。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員早。"],["許委員智傑：主秘好。我請教你，現在海纜登陸站跟海纜系統，NCC有沒有什麼規劃？就是在高雄來講。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是不是請同仁回答？"],["陳處長春木：報告委員，海纜登陸站必須是一個系統，也就是它是國際海纜上來然後再建一個站，那是構成一個系統的情形，臺灣目前所知道的大概都是這樣的方式在運作。"],["許委員智傑：現在臺灣有海纜系統上來了，就是淡水、八里、頭城跟枋山。"],["陳處長春木：是。"],["許委員智傑：那總共有幾T，您知道嗎？"],["陳處長春木：目前我沒有資料，是不是會後提供給委員？"],["許委員智傑：好，我跟主秘報告一下，現在新加坡上來的大概有400T左右，然後香港上來的有接近200T、一百九十幾T，臺灣上來的大概有一百零幾T，這一百零幾T都集中在淡水、八里跟頭城，枋山上來的不到1T，這很小、很少。臺灣未來整個AI的發展，現在像超級電腦資料中心等等這些比較大流量的海纜站，事實上，我們大流量的臺北都已經不適合了嘛，因為北部的水電問題跟南部的條件不一樣，所以以高雄來說，其實一來是我們水電的條件比北部還好，二來就是包括台積電要在高雄設五個廠、包括輝達跟鴻海投資的超級電腦資料中心、包括艾司摩爾、AMD都即將進駐高雄。以未來AI產業的發展，我們希望高雄將來可以變成臺灣AI最強的城市，我們其實是後發先至，像新竹科學園區，他們可能做的奈米數都會比高雄還高，現在台積電在高雄設的五個廠，基本上是2奈米，甚至更低都有可能，所以這個海纜站事實上是一個資訊資料數據的海纜港、數位港。","高雄有海港有空港，現在這個數位港是迫切需要，NCC是不是可以規劃這個數位港？因為我去查所有的相關法條，包括固定通信業務管理規則，其實這些幾乎都是NCC的業務，以管轄權來看，都是NCC的業務，所以我是一直希望，不管是數位發展部，數位發展部有一個韌性計畫，對臺灣將來的數位韌性需要再提高，今天我們從數位發展部的立場，從NCC的立場，從高雄市成為未來AI首都、發展為AI最強城市的立場，這個部分我們的確迫切需要一個AI數位港，這個部分NCC有沒有什麼規劃？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，首先，委員說到了一個關鍵字，就是韌性建設，可是不管是不是韌性建設，南北的均衡發展事實上是非常重要的。但是第一個，因為本會是監理機關，所謂的監理機關就不太可能再去做這些比較政策性的規劃，但是確實如委員所說的，對於這樣的建設，不管是從韌性建設的角度來思考也罷，或是說從南北平衡的發展需求也罷，我覺得確實這樣的建設事實上是有需要的。我們會在我們的職掌範圍之內，比如在專用電信網路設置使用管理辦法裡面，看看有沒有一些建設或一些管理上面可以持續予以放寬的，讓不管是數位部也罷，還是其他部會也罷，當有這個港或是有這樣一個建設的時候，我們可以快速的來建設，這部分我們可以來協助。"],["許委員智傑：其實這個道理我都懂，問題就是誰來掛鈴鐺？基本上NCC是監理機關，所以不是主動出擊的單位……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是、是。"],["許委員智傑：數位發展部的韌性建設，這個理念他們也同意，但是他們也不是主動出擊的單位，NCC跟數位發展部都認為這是一個重要的工作，但是公部門找不到人可以做，這個不就卡在那裡了嘛？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以是不是基於政府公部門有這個需求，未來這個城市有這個需求，是不是NCC可以主動一點，跟數位發展部，或者是說高雄市政府申請？它也是公部門，它可以申請嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，這樣好不好，因為我覺得很多事情其實要有個先導計畫，我再問一下，再請示一下我們以後的主委，看是不是透過他的管道可以跟行政院或者是……"],["許委員智傑：我今天在這邊提問，希望主秘可以把意見帶到，因為前任的主委，現在的代理主委，我也問過，未來的代理主委，我沒有跟他問過這件事情……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我會跟他報告，他應該知道。"],["許委員智傑：我的意思就是說，如果因為NCC內部的人事異動，我的事情一個人講一次，換一個人講一次，再換一個人再講一次，公部門的效率就會讓我質疑。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以我希望不管是誰當主委，不管是誰當代理主委，我覺得這件事情主秘應該是清楚的，結果我現在一問，我發現主秘不清楚。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，是因為主秘的權限是很有限的……"],["許委員智傑：權限當然是有限，但是事情要了解啊！事情要研究啊！我的意思是說，公部門有沒有機會來掛這個鈴鐺？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：公部門當然是有，但是放在NCC這邊的話，在角色上面會有一點……"],["許委員智傑：我的意思就是說，不見得要你放啦，但是至少你要關心、要了解，或是相對的，公部門有沒有一個互相研究的機制，我要的就是國家的韌性建設，我要的就是未來AI首都需要的所有配套，尤其數位港是一個重要的起點，今天公部門都沒辦法做，那我要找誰？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們再想一想，之後再跟委員報告。"],["許委員智傑：你了解我的意思嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：了解。"],["許委員智傑：我希望NCC至少要把這一件事情，你再看一下本席簡報的第一張圖，海纜站都在北臺灣，金門比較少，北臺灣這三個站就超過100T，枋山只有一個站，還不到1T，我弄數目字讓主秘參考，你就知道今天高雄設一個海纜站的重要性。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，了解。"],["許委員智傑：所以我希望NCC將來，尤其現在委員又缺少，這個業務如果要推展，NCC不管是主秘也好，不管是未來的代理主委也好，有沒有辦法去協助這個事情？不要因為NCC內部的人事問題，我也希望藍白真的要讓一個機關可以正常運作啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：在我們幕僚的層次，我再問一下數位部……"],["許委員智傑：不要到時候高雄重大建設，結果NCC沒辦法作主、沒辦法簽核，這樣子就會阻礙到國家的建設！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：簽核，如果是認證、驗證，我們會努力。驗證、認證的部分，這個沒有問題，現在就是說委員提到的計畫……"],["許委員智傑：將來萬一藍白沒有同意新的委員進來，像這個案子NCC有權限嗎？如果有人申請進來呢？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：有進來的話，我們應該會想辦法，因為大概還沒有那麼快，我想應該不至於讓NCC那麼久沒有委員。"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，所以今天有兩個要求，第一個要求，希望主秘可以對這個議題有稍微深入一點的了解。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，了解。"],["許委員智傑：讓我們國家重要建設、高雄重要建設，這個韌性建設跟AI的發展在將來可以順利的進行，這是第一件事，希望主秘可以去了解一下。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["許委員智傑：第二件事，就是希望，今天不管是公部門，還是你們去鼓勵任何的私部門，其實我都不排斥，我只要有一家，我只要任務完成，我就可以接受，是不是拜託NCC努力一點來幫忙完成？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：就私部門的部分，我再問一下其他業者……"],["許委員智傑：希望NCC可以化被動為主動，主動出擊，幫我解決高雄的需求、國家韌性建設的需求，這樣好不好？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，了解，我會努力辦到。"],["許委員智傑：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員質詢。","本席在此宣告：等一下林俊憲委員質詢後休息10分鐘；黃健豪委員質詢後處理臨時提案。","接下來請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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416,"end":515.594,"text":"那個那個要想辦法要納入管理那這部分我們目前我們已經有召開那個三次這個電信法修法會議那那個相關的這些條文我們大概有有一些初步的構想那至於後續的這個政策影響評估跟法制影響評估我們再更新再進行"},{"start":516.573,"end":517.734,"text":"司法局局長"},{"start":537.706,"end":538.126,"text":"通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":554.933,"end":555.314,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":575.169,"end":597.666,"text":"已經先移除了所以這樣子的一個狀況都是影響到民眾的一個民生包括火車站這個售票員他們要就是要售票也一樣受到影響這個真的是影響蠻大的那這個部分我們有就是說有沒有可能用行動基地台先去支援一下"},{"start":598.647,"end":624.849,"text":"這一部分先協調我們的業者先用行動基地台部分先來處理後續的話我們也看看附近有沒有更適當的地點不管是公有的或私有的我們會跟業者一起來努力來短期內解決這個問題是就是說當然有些人對這個基地台是會有一些疑慮可是沒有基地台的時候才會發現很多生活上還是會造成很大的一個不便跟影響我們盡力服務是好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時2分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請NCC黃主秘。"],["主席：請NCC。"],["陳委員素月：主秘早。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：早。"],["陳委員素月：本席關心目前跟NCC打詐相關的措施，其實本席也常常接到陌生的簡訊，一般民眾可能對於這個簡訊有時候不小心就好奇點進去看，就誤入簡訊中的短網址或電話號碼，結果就會造成他的個資或財產損失，遭到詐騙。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["陳委員素月：詐騙簡訊或其他人用詐騙的手法，目前非常猖獗也讓民眾真的是深惡痛絕，為了要宣示打詐的決心，今年5月立法院也通過打詐專法──詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，也修改洗錢防制法、科技偵查及保障法、通訊保障及監察法等打詐新四法，當然就是法令通過之後，由各主管機關針對跟自己主管相關權責部分，訂定打詐的加強措施，剛剛本席有提到詐騙簡訊的部分，資料上看起來從今年1月到10月仍然有四十萬餘則的惡意簡訊被發送。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["陳委員素月：所以真的是蠻氾濫的，本席想請教目前NCC針對惡意簡訊的部分有什麼具體的措施來防止？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：謝謝委員，這題目問得很好，因為幾乎國人包含我們自己在家裡面，都會常常接到這樣的簡訊。"],["陳委員素月：對。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：所以我們從去年開始一系列從簡訊代發業者、從電信業者的簡訊發送，以及屬於個人簡訊發送的部分，都予以明確規定，必須要符合一定的規定之後，才准許發送，特別是過去大家懷疑是不是因為它是所謂的秘密通訊範圍，所以我們也不應該檢查裡面的內容，就這一部分我們也透過行政解釋，要求所有電信業者在發送之前，必須要確保所有的內容裡面不可以有詐騙內容，特別是剛才委員所提到的短網址及電話號碼部分，這一部分如果要發送可以，但必須要在白名單的範圍之內，同時內容必須要經過檢視。至於一般使用者，假設超過50則，必須要先經過電信事業認定為白名單之後，才可以超過50則，假設沒有經過電信事業的認證，而超過50則，這部分我們會暫時停止電信服務，要求業者再做進一步的KYC。這一系列的執行成果，我們同仁講11月份就簡訊部分好像已經沒有通報有詐騙的情形。"],["陳委員素月：NCC是宣布從11月18號開始實施這樣一個新商業簡訊要預先審核、登錄的規定。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["陳委員素月：主秘回復說，這樣短短10天，目前都沒有了？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：現在有沒有？就商業簡訊部分。"],["陳處長春木：委員好，165每個月會送涉詐的簡訊內容到通傳會來，個人的部分，主要是簡訊涉詐的部分，實際上從今年的5月開始就逐步下降，一直到10月份給我們資料的時候，涉詐的簡訊10月分是零件，以上報告。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：那是屬於商業簡訊的部分，屬於個人簡訊部分當然還是有，因為個人簡訊還是有50則，但是個人簡訊部分只要電話號碼被通報有涉詐嫌疑的話，我們就會開始持續關注，然後可能會進一步終止這個涉詐電話號碼的電信服務。"],["陳委員素月：是，是不是可以請主秘再說明一下，你們剛剛說到的商業簡訊白名單的機制？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，在商業簡訊這部分，最主要是目前商業簡訊這一塊有屬於電信業者自己發送的，另外有一部分是屬於簡訊代發業者所發送的，在代發業者這部分，我們會要求電信事業必須要要求下游的電信代發業者，內容要嘛是透過電信業者來過濾，要嘛就是簡訊代發業者，類似像三竹這樣的企業，內部必須要有過濾機制，這些過濾機制當然不會無端的去攔阻它，所有的不管是運用AI也罷，運用人工也罷，都必須要審視過，內容部分在發送之前一定要先看過。"],["陳委員素月：是，謝謝主秘的說明，在這邊本席要肯定NCC在這部分的努力。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：事實上，NCC主管的業務都跟民生息息相關，跟我們的生活，詐騙的防堵。","另外，本席再來關心一下有關兒少性剝削影像的部分，在黃子佼事件爆發以後牽扯出創意私房這樣的色情網站，當時也有初步下架、封網，可是事後我們發現封網還是有漏洞，原來這個漏洞就是有一些二類電信業者提供網際網路接取服務，仍然可以讓一些使用者透過這樣的提供去瀏覽這些網站。後來本席跟鍾佳濱委員也針對這個召開了一個記者會，要求要把這個部分納管，就是將IASP納管，本席在這邊請教一下主秘，在法令還沒有修正通過之前算是一個空窗期，NCC能夠有什麼樣的作為？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，我大概檢視了目前國內的各項法律，包含兒少法，甚至一般的行政法令，其實大部分大致上都已經有個相關的條文叫做「攔網」、「遮蔽」、「封網」或是「攔阻」這樣的機制，既然有這樣一個機制的話，事實上是涉及後端如何去執行的問題。剛才委員特別提到黃子佼事件所牽涉的創意私房事件，對有線電視部分，我們已經在第一時間，一個月內我們已經要求所有的有線電視業者，不管是自己有建構DNS的解譯軟體，或者是透過上游，這部分我們已經要求必須要有DNS RPZ的加入了，那在NIC部分，他們也儘量予以協助，所以這部分大概是沒有問題，但是在有線電視法部分，因為委員要求要設法將ISP納入管理，這部分我們目前已經召開三次電信法修法會議，相關的條文我們大概已有些初步的構想，至於後續的政策影響評估跟法制影響評估，我們再賡續進行。"],["陳委員素月：是，謝謝NCC的努力。","最後本席再關心一下同樣是基地台的問題，剛剛李昆澤委員在關心NCC對基地台的建置，應該要積極的去協助，因為我們知道現在手機的使用非常普遍，跟民眾生活上的需求真的是息息相關，在本席的選區最近就有一個現象，就是我們那邊有一棟危樓要拆除了，拆除的時候就發現它對面的員林火車站發生了一個狀況，就是旅客要用手機驗證碼進出閘口，竟然沒辦法使用，因為設在那棟大樓上面的基地台已經先移除了，導致火車站內收不到訊號，這樣的狀況就影響到民生，包括火車站售票員售票也一樣受到影響，這個真的是影響蠻大的。這個部分，有沒有可能先用行動基地台去支援一下？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，這部分我們可以協調業者先用行動基地台來處理，後續我們也看看附近有沒有更適當的地點，不管是公有的或私有的，我們會跟業者一起來努力，短期內解決這個問題。"],["陳委員素月：是，當然有些人對基地台還是會有一些疑慮，可是沒有基地台的時候才會發現對生活會造成很大的不便跟影響。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們努力服務。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員素月）：接下來請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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a very sharp cuethat's a very heavy accuse"},{"start":398.431,"end":400.433,"text":"這是笑到真的是一笑國際大方所以說這點來講我建議這個案子裡面預算要全部刪除"},{"start":408.635,"end":430.418,"text":"那好這一點我已經保明我的立場那我會再正式提出來我會再正式預算的時候提出來因為他這個是有限電視法的規定就是要撥付這麼多的比例給公共電視那我只能有限電視法的比例是一回事他有沒有保護我們國家的利益有沒有對我們全民造成造成良性的影響如果沒有的話"},{"start":431.969,"end":433.852,"text":"還是我會堅持我的邏輯思維。好,謝謝王祖密。請陳珠瑋上台。謝謝。"},{"start":446.247,"end":468.84,"text":"委員長主委我想請教到目前為止針對基隆的風災那目前的因為我知道說基隆的預算這個有關災害的預算已經用完了甚至說基隆市政府國家市長特地跟我提說我們還有短缺6億的缺口那我想因為那時候行政院卓議院長也特地麻煩公共工程委員會陳主委這邊來去做這個整個後面災後的這個金額的幫忙"},{"start":473.924,"end":475.088,"text":"我想請問目前整個的狀況是為何?"},{"start":478.568,"end":503.053,"text":"報告委員,委員對基隆的風災受損也非常關注所以曾經現勘過一次,工程會派員參與目前基隆市政府所提出來的需求在11月21比較關於教育部分的已經同意已經審核通過另外一部分在12月3會繼續審查我相信我們會盡速來完成這個審查"},{"start":505.754,"end":527.251,"text":"好那就是在這邊本席就請拜託我們公共工程委員會跟陳主委如果能的話在合法合理的前提之下儘速讓這個補助能夠過關因為基隆的經費嚴重不足那地方經費未來財化法過的時候或許災害損害性可以調高一點但是目前還是要請這個公共工程委員多多幫忙好沒有問題好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":266,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時53分）好，謝謝主席，有請黃主秘。"],["主席：好，請黃主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：主秘，當我在看114年度單位預算的時候，看到了第11頁有線廣播電視事業發展基金，然後我在這邊有看到一個項目，就是「撥付地方政府及捐贈公視計畫」總金額高達這個基金的70%以上。我看到這個的時候就不禁想問，針對TaiwanPlus直接發表有歧視意味的言論，來針對美國總統當選人川普，請問一下像這種有關歧視的言論，是不是有相對的罰則？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：首先，針對委員的詢問，在四成的那部分是因為有線廣播電視法裡面規定，這個基金的四成必須……"],["林委員沛祥：我是說NCC本身針對把川普說成是重罪犯的這件事情，是不是有做出罰則？是不是應該做出罰則？或有沒有要做出罰則？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是這樣子的，我們在廣播電視法裡面，有一個違反公序良俗、違反法律強制禁止的規定，有這樣的規定。"],["林委員沛祥：所以有沒有要罰？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：目前在文化部那邊在就……"],["林委員沛祥：NCC應該是管這些充滿歧視言論的第一單位吧！怎麼會都到文化部過去了呢？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：目前好像我們沒有接受到民眾要對川普這個事件的檢舉。"],["林委員沛祥：沒有檢舉所以就不用罰，好，謝謝您。第二個如果我記得沒錯這個言論是來自MSNBC，MSNBC已經逐漸喪失它的公信度、可信度，也就是說這句話已經不是單單純純從川普嘴上講來，而且現在已經被各大美國主流媒體所引用，我就很好奇衍生到另外一個問題，假新聞、假消息不是只有臺灣才有，但是當國外的假消息傳到臺灣的時候，NCC身為國家通訊委員會該如何保護中華民國臺灣的國家利益。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，同樣接續上一個問題，通傳會事實上只做事後的監督，並不是事前去審視。"],["林委員沛祥：可是你們也無法科以罰則，只有民眾的檢舉。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們目前就只有透過民眾的檢舉，因為我們也不在……"],["林委員沛祥：所以像是川普這件案子，假設有人檢舉，就馬上要罰公視，對吧？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，假設有人檢舉我們就依照程序，交由內容諮詢委員會去認定。"],["林委員沛祥：主秘，以你專業角度來看，這樣的言語是不是造成對國家利益的損害？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我個人初步的看法是。"],["林委員沛祥：好，未來如果像這樣的事情，我希望可以儘量杜絕，因為我們知道假消息不是只有在臺灣國內會有。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["林委員沛祥：全世界的假消息充斥很多，如何把外媒傳來有關歧視甚至傷害本國利益的言論，我們應該第一時間去制止，這方面本席不只建議未來要有罰則之外，還要有時間更嚴謹的查證，不然像這樣的事情出幾次烏龍，外交部就不用幹了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，跟委員報告，這也是為什麼在我們的預算裡面會編列對於媒體素養的加強，尤其是所有媒體從業人員，我們都定期邀請他們來本會加強訓練，特別是在內容查證技術上面。"],["林委員沛祥：好，針對這點我們講到最源頭，因為TaiwanPlus這件事情出來之後，當然獲得全國民眾高度關注，本席跟幾位委員也實質看過TaiwanPlus的內容，嚴格講起來非常偏頗，不管在國際新聞還是國內新聞報導的篇幅、頻率跟內容都相當的偏頗，而且如果臺灣的TaiwanPlus模仿對象是韓國的阿里郎TV，很明顯的並沒有辦法讓國外的好朋友，因為看過TaiwanPlus而對臺灣有任何的吸引力。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["林委員沛祥：這是我覺得非常糟糕的一點，請問針對TaiwanPlus的績效不彰或目的偏移這件事情，NCC有沒有採取什麼措施？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：首先，因為TaiwanPlus是公共電視所製播的。"],["林委員沛祥：公共電視，NCC就不用監督了嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：要，因為委員談到它如何去製播這個問題，那就涉及到……"],["林委員沛祥：我順便問一下，你這1億9,000萬裡面有70%是給地方政府跟捐贈公視計畫，那我問更細一點，70%裡面有多少是給公視的？"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，有線廣播電視基金是系統業者每年營收的1%。"],["林委員沛祥：我只想知道公視你們補助多少？"],["黃副處長天陽：公視占這裡面基金的30%，是依法撥付的，所以我們每一年都依法撥付基金的30%給公視，至於公視是用在哪裡？他們的用途？待會請他說明。"],["林委員沛祥：本席建議30%全部刪除。"],["黃副處長天陽：這是法律……"],["林委員沛祥：我會正式提出來而且不得挪用，因為這一點來講，如果公視存在的目的已經損害到國家利益的話，事實上我問政從來不預設立場，但是你叫一個即將當選美國總統的人，說他是「felony」，That's a very sharp accuse，真的是貽笑國際大方。以這點來講，我建議這個案子的預算要全部刪除，這點我已經表明立場，我會在正式預算的時候提出來。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，因為這是有線電視法的規定，就是要撥付這麼多的比例給公共電視。"],["林委員沛祥：有線電視法的比例是一回事，它有沒有保護國家利益、有沒有對全民造成良性的影響？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["林委員沛祥：如果沒有的話，我會堅持我的邏輯思維，謝謝黃主秘。","請陳主委上台，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：主委，請教到目前為止針對基隆風災補助的進度？因為我知道基隆有關災害的預算已經用完了，甚至基隆市政府國樑市長特地跟我提說，還有短缺6億的缺口，那時候行政院卓院長也特地麻煩公共工程委員會陳主委做整個災後金額的幫忙，請問目前整個的狀況是為何？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，委員對基隆的風災受損也非常關注，所以曾經現勘過一次，我們工程會也派員參與。目前基隆市政府所提出來的需求，在11月21日關於教育部分已經審核通過，另一部分在12月3日會繼續審查，我們會儘速完成這個審查。"],["林委員沛祥：好，本席就拜託公共工程委員會跟陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們會儘速。"],["林委員沛祥：如果能的話，在合法合理的前提下儘速讓這個補助能夠過關，因為基隆的經費嚴重不足，地方經費未來財劃法過了之後或許災害損害金可以調高一點，但是目前還是要請公共工程委員會多多幫忙。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，沒有問題。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席（許委員智傑代）：謝謝，請陳素月召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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to the current status of NCC."},{"start":74.491,"end":75.331,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":95.618,"end":107.929,"text":"加強民眾之間溝通同時我們也要求電信企業務必要就當地的這些聯繫品質要持續的要關注不能夠讓因為民眾的抗爭而產生這些空窗現在我們針對電信"},{"start":111.311,"end":138.549,"text":"通訊品質不佳的狀況我分兩個層面來跟主命來討論第一個是電信黑名單的問題第二個是基地台相關的議題那相關的我們的電信黑名單因為消費者常常因為行動的這個通訊品質不好所以他會向電信的業者客服來反映那有很多就像"},{"start":139.741,"end":154,"text":"主秘剛才講的是基地台拆除的這些相關的問題那導致服務不佳但這不是消費者的問題啊是消費者認為說你通訊品質不佳我要求解約但是都會遭到拒絕啦"},{"start":154.861,"end":177.557,"text":"甚至威脅要列入黑名單所謂的電信黑名單它一開始最主要是說它是要確保在線的安全來防堵一些高風險的客戶就是說被列入黑名單會有什麼狀況就是你會被限制來申辦新的門號"},{"start":178.678,"end":199.973,"text":"或者是西馬移入甚至無法享受一些電信特定的電信的一些服務那這些問題其實我們來看這種所謂的高風險名單一般來說都是處理西馬或者是停用的這個停用率高"},{"start":201.007,"end":227.717,"text":"或者是帳單遲遲沒有繳納或者是網路用量異常甚至是頻繁客訴者現在也加上了剛才我所提的這樣因為通訊品質不佳是基地台的問題然後基地台不佳沒有辦法造成這種通訊品質不佳要求結業你們又拒絕然後又威脅說我就是要把你列入黑名單"},{"start":229.297,"end":256.336,"text":"這樣是不對的因為這種濫用的情況就是說這些業者部分業者利用黑名單來威脅消費者放棄合理的訴求就是說你要打消解約或者是你不能要求賠償或者是說你不能再申訴了你再申訴我就要把你列入黑名單這是很莫名其妙我們電信管理法第8條"},{"start":258.198,"end":281.043,"text":"電信事業沒有正當理由不得拒絕電信服務之請求及通訊傳遞另外電信業者是特許行業特許的事業應該要提供穩定的服務維護消費者的基本權利那NCC如果確保這些黑名單的機制不會被濫用來總理說明一下"},{"start":281.883,"end":286.065,"text":"電信事業無正當理由,你不可以拒絕電信服務的請求及通信。這裡面正當理由所指的是一切你都必須要依照電信服務契約的"},{"start":299.85,"end":300.151,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":319.353,"end":334.191,"text":"通訊品質不佳、申訴的你不能把它列為黑名單你必須站在電信管理法第8條以及對於這樣的一個通訊品質的按照電信管理法及公平交易的基本原則來做處理"},{"start":337.014,"end":363.326,"text":"這個必須要加強也歡迎民眾如果說假設你被不公平對待的話除了我們的電信消費增益中心之外如果假設各位消費者覺得仍然有必須要再申訴的NCC必須積極的介入相關的業者的督導以及對消費者權益的保障那我們再來討論國內基地台其實建設也陷入困境了"},{"start":364.554,"end":388.793,"text":"五G比四G需要更多的基地台密度要更高那我們根據通訊傳播市場的調查2023年的問卷結果顯示更換行動電話業者他最主要原因是什麼因為通訊品質不佳佔了21.8%其實我們來看桃竹苗跟宜花東"},{"start":390.835,"end":395.618,"text":"這種通訊品質不佳他們感受最深那這種問題我覺得"},{"start":401.772,"end":424.95,"text":"基地台的建置它雖然有它的法規的支持但是也碰到很多的困難電信法第32條規定第一類的電信事業可使用公私有土地建設基礎設施公有土地管理機關沒有正當理由是不得拒絕基地台的設置那實際狀況其實卓明你也很清楚"},{"start":426.229,"end":446.232,"text":"部分：而且是很大部分的公部門是以各種理由拒絕建設來導致這些進度的落後那NCC有沒有積極去協調來提高這些基地台的建設率促進全台的網路品質的一個提升"},{"start":448.334,"end":467.61,"text":"我印象中行政院這邊實際上有成立一個督導匯報那在督導匯報裡面其實我們也會把各個部門的執行率執行前期 像公部門不配合就是這部分其實主要還是我們要去加強跟各個地方有公有土地的這部分我們會加強再去督導"},{"start":469.171,"end":494.177,"text":"依據我們同仁所給我的資料近期我們大概在近三年內我們已經完成766處的站點中央就佔了75.8%地方是24.2%所以必須要加強因為時間的關係我是集體的經驗你們要成立這種跨部會的小組而且必須要定期的這些評估"},{"start":495.057,"end":496.498,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":517.25,"end":527.431,"text":"針對山林地是不是部分來做開放來做基地台設施或者是交通設施或者是公務機關因為偏遠地區你必須"},{"start":529.046,"end":554.482,"text":"來加強它的這種網路通訊的品質這才能縮小城鄉的這種數位的差距而且增加網路的覆蓋率來,蠢蜜簡單說明一下這部分我們將會持續跟在配合行政院的這個督導匯報我們會加強這部分的溝通那也請各部會員也要多多支持必須改善通訊的品質然後啊要針對消費者的權利要具體的保障這是你專業的工作以上謝謝委員好謝謝李"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":226,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時43分）謝謝召委，請一下NCC黃文哲主秘。"],["主席：請黃主秘。"],["李委員昆澤：主秘，NCC電信消費爭議處理中心是我在2013年提案通過成立的，當時的主委，我記得是石世豪主委，當時我也親至現場來揭牌成立。電信消費爭議處理中心處理相關的電信消費爭議大概一年是5,000件左右，如果我們來看相關的電信消費爭議，通訊品質不佳是最主要的一個因素。我看今年1至9月爭議案件的處理報告也指出，平均每個月大概有340件是行動通訊相關的通訊連線品質問題，是電消爭議裡面最大的主因，NCC如何看待這種狀況？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：就這兩部分，當然最主要的影響其實就是因為民眾抗爭，結果基地臺我們有拆除，然後又重新建，在這過程當中會造成民眾對於連線品質的一些不滿。另外一部分是我們在3G轉換過程當中所產生的這些問題，就這一部分的話，我們持續地加強與民眾溝通，同時我們也要求電信事業務必就當地的這些連線品質要持續地關注，不能夠因為民眾的抗爭而產生空窗。"],["李委員昆澤：好，現在針對電信通訊品質不佳的狀況，我分兩個層面來跟主秘討論。第一個是電信黑名單的問題，第二個是基地臺相關的議題。消費者常常因為行動的通訊品質不好，所以他會向電信業者、客服反映，有很多就像主秘剛才講的，是基地臺拆除的這些相關問題，導致服務不佳，但這不是消費者的問題，消費者認為你通訊品質不佳要求解約，但是都會遭到拒絕，甚至威脅要列入黑名單，所謂的電信黑名單，它一開始最主要是說要確保債信的安全，來防堵一些高風險的客戶，被列入黑名單會有什麼狀況？就是你會被限制申辦新的門號，或者是攜碼移入，甚至無法享受一些特定的電信服務，這些問題。其實我們來看這種所謂的高風險名單，一般來說都是處理攜碼或者是停用率高，或者是帳單遲遲沒有繳納，或者是網路用量異常，甚至是頻繁客訴者，現在也加上了剛才我所提的，因為基地臺的問題，然後造成通訊品質不佳要求解約這種，你們又拒絕，然後又威脅說我就是要把你列入黑名單，這樣是不對的。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，報告委員……"],["李委員昆澤：這種濫用的情況，就是說這些業者、部分業者利用黑名單來威脅消費者放棄合理的訴求，也就是說要他打消解約的念頭，或者是不能要求賠償，或者是要他不能再申訴了，再申訴，就要把他列入黑名單，這是很莫名其妙的。主秘，電信管理法第八條規定，電信事業沒有正當理由，不得拒絕電信服務之請求及通信傳遞。另外，電信業者是特許行業、特許事業，應該要提供穩定的服務，維護消費者的基本權益，NCC如何確保這些黑名單的機制不會被濫用？來，主秘說明一下。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，首先，我們再一次強調，絕對不允許有黑名單產生，正如委員所說的，在電信管理法裡面已經有明確的規定，電信事業無正當理由，不可以拒絕電信服務的請求及通信，這裡面正當理由所指的是，一切你都必須要依照電信服務契約的相關規定來辦，不可以因為民眾來申訴，就把他列為黑名單，這個事情我們會持續地加強輔導。"],["李委員昆澤：但相關的電信業者定型化契約其實都暗藏這些細節在裡面，我要求針對這種通訊品質不佳申訴的，不能把他列為黑名單。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，當然，當然。"],["李委員昆澤：對於這樣通訊品質的問題，你必須站在電信管理法第八條以及公平交易的基本原則來處理。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["李委員昆澤：這個必須要加強。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這部分我們會……我們也歡迎民眾，假設你被不公平對待的話，除了電信消費爭議處理中心之外，如果各位消費者覺得仍然有必須要再申訴的，我們……"],["李委員昆澤：NCC必須積極地介入相關業者的督導，以及對消費者權益的保障。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我們再來討論，國內基地臺建設其實也陷入困境了，5G比4G需要更多的基地臺，密度要更高。我們根據通訊傳播市場的調查，2023年的問卷結果顯示，更換行動電話業者的最主要原因是什麼？因為通訊品質不佳，占了21.8%。我們來看桃竹苗跟宜花東，這種通訊品質不佳的問題他們感受最深。我覺得基地臺的建置雖然有法規支持，但是也碰到很多的困難。電信法第三十二條規定，第一類的電信事業可使用公、私有土地建設基礎設施，公有土地管理機關沒有正當理由不得拒絕基地臺的設置。實際狀況其實主秘也很清楚，部分，而且是很大部分的公部門是以各種理由拒絕建設，導致這些進度落後。NCC有沒有積極去協調，來提高這些基地臺的建設率，促進全臺網路品質的提升？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我印象中行政院實際上有成立一個督導會報，在督導會報裡面，其實我們也會把各個部會的執行率、執行情形……"],["李委員昆澤：但公部門不配合啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這部分的話，其實主要還是我們要去加強，各個地方這些公有土地的部分，我們會再去加強督導。依據我們同仁所給我的資料，大概在近3年內，我們已經完成766處的站點，這部分中央就占了75.8%，地方是24.2%，也就是說……"],["李委員昆澤：這個必須要加強啦！主秘，因為時間的關係，我是具體地建議，你們要成立跨部會的小組。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["李委員昆澤：而且必須要定期地評估。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：了解。"],["李委員昆澤：要協助解決各機關這種基地臺設置的相關阻礙。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["李委員昆澤：而且我認為要公開這些不配合的機關。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，我會跟行政院……"],["李委員昆澤：應該要促請改善這些配合度，尤其是偏遠地區。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：了解。"],["李委員昆澤：偏遠地區，我認為是不是要開放部分山林地來設置基地臺，或者是交通設施，或者是公務機關……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：了解。"],["李委員昆澤：因為必須加強偏遠地區的網路通訊品質，才能縮小城鄉的數位差距，而且增加網路的覆蓋率。來，主秘簡單說明一下。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，這部分我們將會持續配合行政院的督導會報，加強這部分的溝通，也請各部會要多多支持。"],["李委員昆澤：必須改善通訊的品質。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["李委員昆澤：然後針對消費者的權益要具體地保障，這是你們中央的工作。以上，謝謝。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝李昆澤委員。","接下來邀請林沛祥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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有一件事很多人也請我要轉達您就是有一次我們一同到那個桃園區然後去看災哇 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浪費公帑這件事情會不會很不好意思我們是依照規定依照規定 依照什麼規定祖密 之前你們的主委陳耀祥那時候我們問他問題的時候還在硬凹他說沒有啊 我們NCC都勝訴啦我們勝訴是14次啦中天當時是只有兩次 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17沒辦法上市你講的齁是你講的齁除了iPhone 17沒辦法上市之外還有什麼東西會受到影響"},{"start":306.605,"end":320.075,"text":"你剛剛講的啊我重複你的話啊你剛剛說如果NCE委員沒辦法組成的話iPhone 17沒有上市你剛剛講的啊我現在問你嘛如果現在NCE委員沒辦法組成iPhone 17可不可以上市可不可以"},{"start":321.664,"end":322.765,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":342.242,"end":368.13,"text":"保留給委員會的事項了啦但是未來如果假設委員會如果假設真的真的沒有辦法再開的話那這部分的話我們後續的程序是不是我們委員會會在委員諮詢、質疑會議會再繼續討論這個我不清楚所以你們就是有辦法嘛你們那時候溫柏中就是在騙人嘛不是當時啊就是有辦法不然你講啊如果NCC現在沒辦法開會的話新的手機沒辦法上市你宣誓啊你講啊你還再繼續恐嚇大家啊"},{"start":369.25,"end":393.104,"text":"你就是有辦法嘛那你既然有辦法去處理就行政程序去做調整為什麼當時要這樣子嚇大家所有公務員都要依法行政啦依法行政也可以彈性呢公務人員要做事啦可以找到100個理由啦不想做事可以找到150個藉口啦就看你怎麼做啦剛剛你也講了嘛沒有什麼iPhone16上不上市問題只要你程序做調整就好了嘛"},{"start":394.437,"end":417.868,"text":"那個是因為...不要在這邊欺騙大眾啦!謝謝!因為法律已經有修正啦!所以可以修正嘛!現在法律沒辦法修正啊!不是啊!你剛剛是不是調整內規?你是不是調整內規?那個是因為它已經法律有修正了但是它是仍然是委員會保留事項...好!沒關係!那你就重複嘛!就是說如果NCE委員沒辦法順利組成的話新的手機沒辦法上市嘛!就是你的意思嘛!"},{"start":419.667,"end":422.675,"text":"這根白的一跟二的問題我不知道為什麼你要一直在那邊倒錢圈"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1300,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時25分）麻煩請NCC主秘。"],["主席：請黃主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主秘，請問一下，剛剛羅智強委員講這件事情，你身為NCC主秘，有不好意思嗎？會不會？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我……"],["葉委員元之：會不會？浪費公帑這件事情，會不會很不好意思？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們是依照規定。"],["葉委員元之：依照規定，依照什麼規定？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：第一個……"],["葉委員元之：主秘，之前你們的主委陳耀祥，那時候我們有問他問題的時候，還在硬拗，他說沒有啊！我們NCC都勝訴啦！我們勝訴是14次，中天當時是只有2次，現在是3次，你知道他那14次勝訴是怎麼算的嗎？你知道怎麼算的嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們的勝訴確實是……"],["葉委員元之：人家沒跟你打官司，你勝訴什麼啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有打官司的只有2件。"],["葉委員元之：你們是把你們裁罰出去，人家沒有去跟你訴願的部分全部算做你勝訴，有人這樣定義的嗎？那現在警察機關每天都在勝訴，因為他常常開罰單出去，只要民眾沒有去申訴，警察機關就是勝訴，哇！那警察機關大概是全臺灣勝訴率最高的一個機關，可以這樣子定義哦？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我想當時也許是比較簡短的敘述，不過確實是只有2件，中天……"],["葉委員元之：那是因為還在訴訟中嘛！但是人家一審、二審都贏嘛！你要拗什麼啊？你要拗什麼啊？然後現在第3件人家也勝訴了嘛！你們因為什麼理由開罰人家？你們因為有一個名嘴叫謝寒冰，他評論陳吉仲主委是有史以來最不適任的主委，你們講說沒有查證啦！所以就開罰啦！請問一下主秘，一般我們講話，有的時候是描述事實，有的時候是個人觀點，請問一下，謝寒冰他講的是描述事實還是個人觀點？是個人觀點還是事實？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為這一部分所有的都是經過……"],["葉委員元之：是觀點還是事實？他評論陳吉仲是有史以來最不適任的主委，是他的觀點還是事實？主秘，你在NCC這麼久，你對業務都不熟悉哦？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，是這樣子……"],["葉委員元之：是事實還是觀點？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為所有的內容都經過內容諮詢委員會……"],["葉委員元之：我就問你嘛！我現在問你，這個問題你那麼難回答嗎？他是評論還是事實嘛？這個是他的評論！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，委員，因為我個人認為不重要。"],["葉委員元之：這個是他個人的評論！主秘，這個是他個人的評論，他評論他認為陳吉仲有史以來最不適任，結果你們NCC講說他沒查證，所以罰中天，請問一下，這個東西怎麼查證？怎麼查證？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不，這件事情不是NCC說的，是有民眾檢舉之後，我們經過內容諮詢委員會……"],["葉委員元之：民眾檢舉，NCC很多時候民眾檢舉你們也是不處理啦！要我們來列舉嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們一定會處理。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以你們處理就是你們去裁罰，你們認為是這樣嘛！你們覺得他沒有查證，所以你們就開罰了嘛！但是一個評論要怎麼去查證啊？還要硬拗。","114年編801萬的訴訟費用，對不對？比今年還要高一百多萬，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們繼續，針對這些荒腔走板的裁罰理由要繼續上訴，要繼續浪費人民的納稅錢，是不是？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為維持一個政府行政處分的正確性，這個是必要的。"],["葉委員元之：維持正確性，那就不正確了啊！人家已經3件判決確定的，你們都是敗訴啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，所以……"],["葉委員元之：所以你們就濫罰嘛！你濫罰，然後為了要拗到最後，反正打官司要很久嘛！現在是3件，第4件可能也要很久以後，第5件可能很久以後，到時候可能你也沒有在做主秘了，這件事情就跟你無關了，但是你們一點道德勇氣都沒有，現在看了3件，大家都覺得這個非常荒腔走板嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，這部分的話……"],["葉委員元之：好啦！請問一下，那個時候你們的前代理主委翁柏宗被記者問到，如果NCC委員會沒辦法召開的話，iPhone 16沒辦法上市，iPhone 16現在上市了沒？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：當時是沒有辦法，當時確實是沒有辦法進口做型式認證。"],["葉委員元之：現在沒辦法？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：現在會來……"],["葉委員元之：現在你們NCC也沒辦法開成會啊！現在3個啊！所以以後有新的iPhone手機也沒辦法上市，你是這個意思嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：未來的話有可能。"],["葉委員元之：有可能怎麼樣？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是這樣子，因為手機要進來有幾個程序，一個是要進口sample來做型式認證，型式認證完了之後，後續才可以根據這個型式認證來進口。"],["葉委員元之：所以有可能新的手機沒有辦法上市，只要NCC委員會沒辦法召開，你是這個意思嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對，現在的話就是……"],["葉委員元之：確定喔？是你講的哦！你講的哦！所以NCC主秘在這邊再次宣示了，如果NCC委員沒有辦法組成委員會的話，iPhone 17沒辦法上市，你講的喔？是你講的喔？除了iPhone 17沒辦法上市之外，還有什麼東西會受到影響？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，委員……"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛講的啊！我重複你的話啊！你剛剛說如果NCC委員沒辦法組成的話，iPhone 17沒辦法上市，你剛剛講的啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員，您應該也知道，當時我已經說……"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有、沒有，我現在問你嘛！如果現在NCC委員沒辦法組成，是不是iPhone……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：當時我已經……"],["葉委員元之：iPhone 17可不可以上市？可不可以？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，iPhone 17現在根本還沒有，現在到16而已。"],["葉委員元之：我知道嘛！我是說假設你們NCC如果一直沒有組成的話，有新的手機可不可以上市？可不可以？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：當時在5月的時候……"],["葉委員元之：不要講當時，我是問現在。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，當時我已經把……"],["葉委員元之：現在可不可以？如果以後有新的手機的話，可不可以上市？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我已經把它從原來的許可制變成核准制之後，已經移出保留給委員會的事項了，但是未來委員會假設真的沒有辦法再開的話，那這部分，後續的程序是不是會在委員諮議會議再繼續討論，這個我不清楚。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們就是有辦法嘛！那時候翁柏宗就是在騙人嘛！謝謝。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，當時是……"],["葉委員元之：就是有辦法，不然你講啊！如果NCC現在沒辦法開會的話，新的手機沒辦法上市，你宣示啊！你講啊！你再繼續恐嚇大家啊！你就是有辦法嘛！那你既然有辦法去處理，就行政程序去做調整，為什麼當時要這樣子嚇大家？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：所有公務員都要依法行政，也必須要……"],["葉委員元之：依法行政也可以彈性啊！公務人員要做事，可以找到100個理由啦！不想做事，可以找到150個藉口啦！就看你怎麼做啦！剛剛你也講了嘛！沒有什麼iPhone 16上不上市問題，只要你程序做調整就好了嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：那個是因為法令有……"],["葉委員元之：不要在那邊欺騙大眾啦！謝謝。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為法律已經有修正啦！"],["葉委員元之：所以可以修正嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，現在法律沒辦法修正啊！"],["葉委員元之：不是，你剛剛是不是說調整內規？你是不是調整內規？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：那個是因為它已經法律有修正了，但是它仍然是委員會保留事項……"],["葉委員元之：好，所以你的意思……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們沒辦法調整……"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係，那你就重複嘛！你就說如果NCC委員沒辦法順利組成的話，新的手機沒辦法上市嘛！就是你的意思嘛！這是黑跟白、1跟2的問題，我不知道為什麼你要一直在那邊繞圈圈。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我沒有這樣講，因為這其實是好多前提啦！"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來邀請王鴻薇委員發言。王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在現場。","接下來邀請陳雪生委員發言。陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員不在現場。","接下來邀請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":60.943,"end":77.238,"text":"急患期刊裡邊特別提到信息相關的訊息外傳跟網路遊戲成癮跟網路霸凌被害都跟自殺風險有高度相關而且兒少自殺已經是兒少死亡原因的第二高位那我們就必須要重視這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":78.539,"end":92.739,"text":"九月二十七總直訊那時候我就有提到國外的經驗那時候我跟院長提到說國外已經開始在管理平台了那美國在今年七月就通過了防止成癮性的內容剝削兒童法那大概也"},{"start":93.94,"end":109.021,"text":"稍微看一下就是他們規範具有成癮性的演算法避免深夜推播內容來影響睡眠甚至家長在保護隱私下可限制使用網路的長度和明定罰則那也可以看到不只是美國"},{"start":111.064,"end":112.625,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":140.942,"end":155.983,"text":"還需要有更多的管理機制所以想問NCC在兒少網路使用的層面上這麼多的暴力、血腥、霸凌都是有害孩子的身心健康的內容除了平台自律以外你到底要怎麼管理?"},{"start":156.907,"end":172.859,"text":"跟委員報告我想所有的內容管理其實核心還在於三立共管不管是說在哪個平台在我們的傳統的媒體上面當然我們現在已經現行已經有廣電三法在做處理了"},{"start":173.999,"end":198.271,"text":"但是這個三立共管的概念其實不會改變那我現在目前跟我們的同仁在討論過當中怎麼樣把三立共管的這個精神落實到我們網際網路平台上面去因為這裡面的問題其實還不只是耳哨還有各式各樣的這些網路上面這些違法或是不當內容對國人的傷害其實我們也都在觀察那目前委員你也知道我們配合衛福部那邊因為所有的這些"},{"start":198.851,"end":201.413,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":228.214,"end":242.623,"text":"包含臉書跟IG跟抖音這個立法目的大概都是怕孩子受到網路的危害然後協助父母去做對應當然你剛剛講艾未這也是我覺得一直以來我覺得艾未總共有五個爸媽"},{"start":244.485,"end":244.945,"text":"網路傳播政策"},{"start":269.468,"end":271.249,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":287.894,"end":288.614,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":307.959,"end":310.8,"text":"安慰的部分其實是根據46條而是要把46條的規定所編列預算有五個部會共同出錢來成立一個委託電腦工會來執行"},{"start":324.708,"end":340.286,"text":"自律這件事情特別是說在跨國的平台上面其實自律並不是完全就說我不管它自律的話其實還是要透過一個大家社會上既有的共識由平台你必須要執行共識"},{"start":341.267,"end":341.888,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":359.147,"end":387.343,"text":"要有一個主管機關目前看到只有你們你們把電視台管得很好啊那現在網路都沒有人管所以平台應該要納管現在網路現在網路是請你們這邊去做考量好是是是這個這個網路部分的話是現在目前是分散在各個部會了它是有各自依照自己的選擇在管那至於說維林剛才提到確實是我們有加入一些國際組織啊他們有要求說我們要有個專法啦那就這一部分的話那個對對對網路網路平台這個責任啊目前我們下一步我們還在演繹當中"},{"start":388.063,"end":389.024,"text":"請委員多多指教,我們一起來努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1215,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（13時11分）主席，麻煩請國家通訊傳播委員會的主秘，黃文哲黃主秘。"],["主席：請黃主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：主秘午安。今天質詢想問NCC，我先前在9月的總質詢就已經有提過兒少網路安全，NCC在今年7月也成立了網際網路傳播治理處，請問對於兒少網路使用，你們預計怎麼做呢？我們來看，目前兒少在5到10歲，也就是幼稚園階段就已經開始初次接觸到網路，而且每天平均使用是8.3小時，所以他不是使用網路哦！他是生活在網路，在這樣的狀況底下，我們當然就會問說那網路安全嗎？我們看到國內有3位臺灣優秀的醫生做的研究，他們發表在「情緒疾患期刊」裡面，特別提到性相關訊息外傳、網路遊戲成癮及網路霸凌被害，都與自殺風險有高度相關，而且兒少自殺已經是兒少死亡原因的第二高位，那我們就必須要重視這個問題。","9月27日總質詢的時候我就有提到國外的經驗，那時候我跟院長提到說國外已經開始在管理平臺了，美國在今年7月就通過了防止成癮性內容剝削兒童法，也稍微看了一下內容，他們就是規範具有成癮性的演算法，避免深夜推播內容來影響睡眠，甚至家長在保護隱私下可限制使用網路的長度和明定罰則。可以看到不只是美國，歐洲也有，歐洲也是政府意識到這個問題的嚴重性，在去年10月它規範業者必須履行職責，還有定義新型態的網路上犯罪行為，要求業者即時刪除義務，然後明定罰則，所以9月27日總質詢的時候，我就提出對於兒少網路管理，我跟院長是有共識的，院長當時回應我說只要平臺自律是不夠的，還需要有更多的管理機制，所以想問NCC，在兒少網路使用的層面上，這麼多的暴力、血腥、霸凌都是有害孩子身心健康的內容，除了平臺自律以外，你到底要怎麼管理？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我想所有的內容管理其實核心還是在於三律共管，不管是在哪一個平臺。在我們傳統的媒體上面，當然現行已經有廣電三法在做處理了，但是三律共管這個概念其實不會改變，目前我跟我們同仁在討論過程當中，怎麼樣把三律共管的精神落實到網際網路平臺上面去，因為這裡面的問題不只是兒少，還有各式各樣網路上面這些違法或是不當內容對國人的傷害，其實我們也都在觀察。","目前委員你也知道，我們是配合衛福部那邊，因為所有對於兒童身心的這些保障、這些處理，其實主責還在衛福部那邊。對我們來說的話，就是委員您剛才所說的，如果在自律這方面不夠，這件事情我們後續可能就賡續進行所謂的網路中介法的立法，但是……"],["林委員月琴：因為你看澳洲總理也宣布要禁止16歲以下孩童使用社群媒體，包含臉書、IG及抖音，這個立法目的大概都是怕孩子受到網路的危害，然後協助父母去做對應。當然你剛剛講iWIN，這也是一直以來我覺得iWIN總共有5個爸媽，現在算6個，你們是其中一個，它現在多了一個數位發展部，我想問的是，目前在NCC的預算，我沒有看到編列整體性的業務預算……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：iWIN有啦！"],["林委員月琴：關於網路傳播治理處的計畫執行經費，在預算當中是看不到的。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：有啦！有。"],["林委員月琴：對於網路傳播政策計畫，竟然只進行社會調查，我想問的是……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有，我們……"],["林委員月琴：只做社會調查對於網路內容來說足夠嗎？也想問通傳會，到底你自己跟iWIN的分工究竟是什麼？我覺得委託一個民間團體要來執行一些公權力，根本就會是很難做的。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：iWIN沒有公權力。"],["林委員月琴：是啊！它沒有公權力啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：第二個跟委員報告，我們目前處也還沒成立，現在只有辦公室，那我們有……"],["林委員月琴：不是編制有40個人嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對，有40個人，但是目前這個處還沒成立，我們本來要向行政院那邊爭取，但行政院有其他的考量，這個處還沒有成立，但是這個任務其實我們還是繼續在進行。","至於iWIN的部分，委員你也知道，它是根據兒少法第四十六條的規定來編列預算，由5個部會共同出錢來成立，委託電腦公會來執行。"],["林委員月琴：是。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這部分其實都還在自律的範圍，那自律這件事情，特別是在跨國的平臺上面，自律並不是說我就完全不管它，其實還是要透過一個社會上既有的共識，由平臺你必須要執行共識，所以這件事情我們也透過……"],["林委員月琴：主秘，因為我覺得世界各國，其他的先進國家都開始處理這一塊。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們也是。"],["林委員月琴：因為時間的關係，最後還是希望我們的網路使用問題應該要有主管機關，因為在兒權公約第25號一般性意見書裡面，它特別提到要有一個主管機關，目前看到只有你們，你們把電視臺管得很好啊！那現在網路都沒有人管，所以平臺應該要納管……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：現在網路是……"],["林委員月琴：所以可能要請你們這邊去做考量。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，是。網路的部分目前是分散在各個部會，各自依照自己的權責在管。至於委員您剛才提到，確實我們有加入一些國際組織，他們有要求我們一定要有一個專法，就這一部分的話，對網路平臺這個責任，目前我們下一步還在研議當中，這必須要有一個立法。"],["林委員月琴：對，主秘，你們本來就有網路傳播治理處嘛！所以也希望能夠及早彰顯它的工作能量，來減少我們兒少在網路上受到的傷害。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，也請委員多多指教，我們一起來努力。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","接下來邀請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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邀請工程會主委請工程會陳主委"},{"start":11.094,"end":25.024,"text":"主任好辛苦了我們來討論114年的預算在你公共工程企劃以及法規業務的部分你為了要健全工程採購法規的制度那你編列了156萬4千元那比這個103年度是增加了這個"},{"start":34.671,"end":35.311,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播監"},{"start":57.941,"end":65.185,"text":"但是我們看到這個成交也就是說工程會的資料去顯示我們5000萬以上的工程採購從108年開始你每一年決標千餘件一千多件"},{"start":73.49,"end":83.455,"text":"那你曾經留廢標的比例以及未在兩次內決標的比例呢108年度是69.27以及19.76但是到了111年它上升了它上升了什麼呢?它從69.27到78.04從19.76到了多少?到了26.32"},{"start":100.123,"end":126.241,"text":"所以主委像這樣的一個情況我們看到數字告訴你我也看到了113年8月底就今年度的到8月底你部分這個工程採購的流費標以及還沒有決標的那有在上升那你認為這個部分要怎麼樣去應對讓我們怎麼去調整讓我們的公共工程能夠更加的順利推動請說明"},{"start":129.629,"end":145.18,"text":"分成兩部分第一部分就是健全工程採購法規的制度我們近來開始著手在這個採購法的修正比方說過去投標一定要三家以上那未滿三家往往就一直流標"},{"start":146.021,"end":164.333,"text":"本席了解,現在就一家,第一次三家,第二次就一家。所以本席才告訴你,那既然是第二次就一家,但是你味覺飄著,它還是在上升啊。表示你改變了這個制度,你並沒有去把這個工程順暢去提升啊。"},{"start":165.51,"end":190.881,"text":"所以我們這個有關於法規的修正需要一點預算大概86萬新增那採購法要廣徵各界意見要辦說明會等等這個是採購法的修正其中有涉及到流標或絕標的一些規範來降低這個流標的次數然後進行採購制度所以這一點本席也是希望你書面資料給本席你的精準方案"},{"start":191.741,"end":213.619,"text":"因為我們實際上你改變了制度以前要三次三家通通三家第四次才可以這一家來協議但是現在我們為了要讓它順暢我們第二次就是只要有一家就得但是我們的數字還是不好看的啊所以表示你這個制度還是沒有辦法真正去"},{"start":214.54,"end":228.757,"text":"解決目前的困境我們目前的公共建設、公共工程它能夠發包執行之前要往前推好幾年那往前推好幾年有可行性、連就、有綜合規劃非常了解,所以針對本席的提問也就是說"},{"start":231.921,"end":254.062,"text":"目前我們的制度雖然有改改了一段時間執行一段時間但是本席告訴你數字還不是那麼順暢你去研明方案你也點頭也知道這個困難當然不可能單一元素一定有很多的因子存在所以你們去通盤了解怎麼樣可以讓我們的政策"},{"start":255.003,"end":257.346,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":274.144,"end":277.087,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案審查114年度中央政府總預算案審查114年度中央政府總預算案審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":296.244,"end":310.015,"text":"那所以本席要請教的是因為你目前是電子採購導入0信任的這個驗證機制他目前還是有這個對象限制對不對"},{"start":314.754,"end":332.846,"text":"也就是本席要強調的你現在運用這個你適用的對象是有限的所以你還必須是去用傳統模式共同混合來運作那這個會不會影響到他的治安的安全混合在一起會不會影響到治安的安全"},{"start":333.286,"end":351.636,"text":"所以本席要問的也就是說當發揮網路的這個治安防護的成效那你們會不會在這樣的情況之下會有一點矛盾點我們一定要治安但是你要用傳統式的混合機制去做那這個成效到底會怎麼樣請出說明"},{"start":352.785,"end":372.913,"text":"是跟委員說明齁那其實我們知我們都是做這個零信任導入其實就是為了治安那治安的部分呢其實我們是一層一層疊加上去的那那個訴罰部他們在導入這個零信任的時候他們今年是有初步的輔導我們各部位來導入那其實他導入那你編列了700萬啊"},{"start":373.613,"end":402.407,"text":"對,它先期導入那其實它要提供我們一些user的一個用處但是後期其實還是要靠我們自己來做全面性的一個處理所以我們後面接續的對於你的單位講這樣就對了因為你如果只有靠書法部你目前能夠做的也就是傳統式跟現在推動當然這個我們要推動行訊院的機制我們要推動但是關鍵者還是在你自己因為它現在的這個對象是有限制的"},{"start":403.047,"end":414.335,"text":"有限財有盲點所以這個議題是我們一定要努力推動但是他的盲點在你的單位你掌控的全國的公共工程這個你必須要專案用心去做"},{"start":415.242,"end":434.495,"text":"是不是應該要如此?你們要有你自己的KPI你自己的步驟好不好?你把你的KPI你的步驟告訴這個順便資料給本席我們一起來看著你的KPI我們一起來努力這個零信任的這個機制那最後一個議題我要請教我要請教"},{"start":436.656,"end":461.864,"text":"公共工程委員會裡頭的業務以及它你的公共規範、認證、整合、維護、推廣、研發你的新編的資料庫你是350萬那你要建置開發公共工程經費的網頁及碳排的估算你是1000萬現在所有的人都希望他在能夠公共工程提供的工料的這個預算"},{"start":463.524,"end":481.078,"text":"那決標的價格給機關單位來參考因為你這個基礎數是非常的重要這個平台所以本想要請教現在所有的同業業者你很煩惱啊我到底沒碳排我是要怎麼計算未知數、環境部你的碳藍圖還沒出來"},{"start":482.739,"end":505.252,"text":"碳費、碳費率也初步講一個答案就是說5年後要到1816倍那我整個整個要來飆的人他會害怕啊又碰到通盆啊又碰到人工掃啊這一些都是因子所以主委像這樣的一個情況之下第一個你的這個碳排氣數"},{"start":507.313,"end":526.094,"text":"是不是在什麼時候可以正確出來你讓他得標者有所依據啊因為你政府如果關鍵沒有出來農耗沒有出來我根本就不知道要怎麼標嘛當然你的位決一定更多嘛非標委會越多啊請說明什麼時候會出來他們的技術什麼時候會出來那我們在建制中啦"},{"start":527.836,"end":540.329,"text":"關於碳費,碳費它環境部在針對一些大戶,比如說煉鋼、石化、水泥一般公共工程還不至於有繳交碳費的問題不過這個建築我請企劃處處長來跟我們...未來會有,因為時間的關係主席站上來,主委我跟您討論一個原則"},{"start":544.714,"end":568.056,"text":"你的資料庫因為你也編列預算1000萬然後350萬我非常的希望能夠建置完成但是也就是說我們2050年近鄰碳排的這個目標那你政府應該要讓讓讓民眾有所依據啊所以本就請問你一個也就是你們現在沒有明定"},{"start":568.757,"end":593.955,"text":"沒有明定你的編碼正確的這個正確率進階的目標你現在沒出來啊那你現在編了這支預算是不是告訴我明年114年你可以出來你可以出來好那我們跟委員報告齁因為整個碳排的這個項目很多啦那我們根據明年的預算會把這個碳排放的估算系統初步建置完成"},{"start":594.175,"end":618.068,"text":"初步建制完成也就是你必須要明定編碼的正確率的進階目標那你讓要標的人才有所依據嘛對不對你也把你這1000萬以及你資料庫的這個委庫的這個服務費的你的350萬你這一些一定有你的指標你的KPI你預計要怎麼做"},{"start":619.288,"end":635.244,"text":"你順便資料給本席好不好那原則上也就是在明年一個答案就是說明年你的攤牌的這個係數你的這個編碼正確率的進階目標明年初步應該會出來是不是好加油好謝謝楊瓊英委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1163,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時）謝謝主席，邀請工程會主委。"],["主席：請工程會陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好，辛苦了！主委，我們來討論114年的預算，在你「公共工程企劃及法規業務」的部分，為了要健全工程採購法規的制度，你編列了156萬4,000元，比113年度增加了86萬4,000元，113年是70萬而已，如果依照比例，那就是增幅123%，從這個比重我們可以看出，您看到這個問題的重要性，所以增加這個預算。","但預算編列出來我們還是要看它的成效，據工程會的資料顯示，5,000萬以上的工程採購從108年開始，每一年決標千餘件，一千多件，曾經流廢標的比率以及未在2次內決標的比率，108年度是69.27%以及19.76%，但是到了111年，哦！它上升了耶！它上升了多少？從69.27%到78.04%，從19.76%到26.32%，所以主委，像這樣的一個情況，我們看到數字告訴你。","我也看到了，113年8月底，就是今年度到8月底，你部分工程採購的流廢標以及還沒有決標的，有在上升，你認為這個部分要怎麼樣去應對、怎麼去調整，讓我們的公共工程能夠更加地順利推動？請說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，分成兩部分，第一部分就是健全工程採購法規的制度，我們近來開始著手在採購法的修正，比方說過去投標一定要3家以上，未滿3家往往就會一直流標，但是那是過去的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席瞭解，現在只有1家，第1次3家，第2次就1家……"],["陳主任委員金德：對，那過去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席才告訴你，既然是第2次就1家，但是你未決標的，它還是在上升啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：對，所以我……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：表示你改變了這個制度，你並沒有把工程順暢去提升啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：對，所以我們有關於法規的修正需要一點預算，大概新增86萬，採購法要廣徵各界意見，要辦說明會等等，這個是採購法的修正，其中有涉及到流標或決標的一些規範，來降低流標的次數，然後健全採購制度。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這一點，希望你書面資料給本席，你的精準方案。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為實際上你改變了制度，以前要3次3家，統統3家，第4次才可以1家來協議，但是現在為了要讓它順暢，第2次只要有1家就得，但是我們的數字還是不好看啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是因為，比方說110年度……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以表示你這個制度還是沒有辦法真正去解決目前的困境。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們目前的公共建設、公共工程它能夠發包執行，之前要往前推好幾年，那往前推好幾年有可行性研究、有綜合規劃，要核定預算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常瞭解，所以針對本席的提問……"],["陳主任委員金德：那個時候的預算會比較低。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也就是說，目前我們的制度雖然有改，改了一段時間，執行一段時間，但是本席告訴你，數字還不是那麼順暢，你去研擬方案。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也點頭，也知道這個困難，當然不可能是單一元素，一定有很多的因子存在，所以你們去通盤瞭解，怎麼樣可以讓我們的政策、工程能夠更加順暢，這才能夠達到三全其美嘛！","接下來本席要跟你討論的是「公共工程企劃及法規業務」，你推動了採購電子化，所以這個項下你編列了3,913萬5,000元，包括編列擴大導入零信任機制，這個部分就達到700萬，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，114年數發部它在政策裡頭，新增要擴大導入零信任機制的經費，所以你們也配合，你光這個部分就700萬，本席要請教的是，因為你目前是電子採購導入零信任驗證機制，它還是有對象限制，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：是不是請我們業務單位來跟委員報告？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，業務單位說明一下。本席要強調的是，你現在運用這個，你適用的對象是有限的，所以你必須與傳統模式混合來運作，這個會不會影響到資安的安全？混合在一起，會不會影響到資安的安全？也就是說，要發揮網路資安防護的成效，那你們在這樣的情況之下，會不會有一點矛盾點？我們一定要資安，但是你又用傳統式的混合機制去做，那這個成效到底會怎麼樣？請做說明。"],["沈執行秘書恆光：是，跟委員說明，其實我們做零信任導入就是為了資安。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然。"],["沈執行秘書恆光：資安的部分，其實我們是一層一層疊加上去的，那數發部他們在導入零信任的時候，他們今年是有初步地輔導我們各部會來導入，其實它導入……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以你編列了700萬啊！"],["沈執行秘書恆光：對，它先期導入，其實它有提供我們一個user的用數，但是後期還是要靠我們自己來做全面性的處理，所以我們後面接續地去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，主委，你的單位講這樣就對了，因為你如果只有靠數發部，你目前能夠做的也就是傳統式跟現在推動，當然這個我們要推動，零信任的機制我們要推動，但是關鍵者還是在你自己。"],["沈執行秘書恆光：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為它現在的對象是有限制的，有限制還有盲點，所以這個議題我們一定要努力推動，但是它的盲點，在你的單位你掌控了全國的公共工程，這個你必須要專案用心去做，主委，是不是應當要如此？"],["沈執行秘書恆光：是，所以我們後續編列預算持續推動下去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？"],["沈執行秘書恆光：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們要有你自己的KPI，你自己的步驟，好不好？"],["沈執行秘書恆光：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把你的KPI、你的步驟，書面資料給本席。"],["沈執行秘書恆光：好，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一起來看著你的KPI，我們一起來努力，導入這個零信任機制。","最後一個議題我要請教，公共工程委員會裡頭的業務，你的規範、認證、整合、維護、推廣、研發，你新編的資料庫是350萬，你要建置及開發公共工程經費的網頁及碳排估算是1,000萬，現在所有的人都希望公共工程能夠提供供料的預算及決標的價格給機關單位來參考，因為你這一個基礎數非常的重要，這一個平臺，所以本席要請教，現在所有的同業業者他很煩惱啊！我到底碳排是要怎麼計算？未知數。環境部，你的碳藍圖還沒出來，碳費、碳費率也初步講一個答案，就是說好，我300元，5年後要到1,800元，是6倍，那要來標的人他會害怕啊！又碰到通膨，又碰到人工少，這一些都是因子，所以主委，像這樣的情況之下，第一個，你的碳排係數在什麼時候可以正確出來？你要讓得標者有所依據啊！因為你政府如果關鍵沒有出來，know-how沒有出來，我根本就不知道要怎麼標嘛！當然你的未決一定更多，廢標也會越多啊！請說明，什麼時候會出來？碳排係數什麼時候會出來？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們在建置中啦！關於碳費，環境部針對一些大戶，比方說煉鋼、石化、水泥，一般公共工程還不至於有繳交碳費的問題，不過這個建置，我請企劃處處長來跟委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：未來會有，因為時間的關係，主席站起來了。主委，我跟你討論一個原則，你的資料庫因為你也編列預算1,000萬，然後350萬，我非常希望能夠建置完成，但是我們2050年淨零碳排這個目標，政府應該要讓民眾有所依據啊！所以本席就請問你一個，你們現在沒有明定編碼正確率進階目標，你現在還沒有出來啊！那你現在編列這一些預算是不是告訴我，明年114年你可以出來？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們跟委員報告，因為整個碳排的項目很多啦！我們根據明年的預算，會把碳排放的估算系統初步建置完成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：初步建置完成，也就是你必須要明定編碼正確率進階目標，要標的人才有所依據嘛！對不對？你這1,000萬以及你資料庫委託服務案的350萬，這一些一定有你的指標、你的KPI，預計要怎麼做，書面資料給本席，好嗎？原則上也就是在明年，一個答案，就是明年你的碳排係數、你的編碼正確率進階目標，明年初步應該會出來，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，加油！"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來邀請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":235.322,"end":248.429,"text":"還是還在審查中?我們康瑞颱風提報時間到11原本是多少?11月27那延到12月"},{"start":250.51,"end":252.872,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":267.364,"end":286.733,"text":"重建的部分內政部那邊有在補助屬於花蓮市政府、縣政府要執行的公共設施然後不足的部分扣除災損其他的工程委總共核定的12億多那不包括還未審查的山陀河或者康瑞還未審查之前的災損補助已經12億5000萬左右"},{"start":290.235,"end":312.648,"text":"這個我都知道我了解像包括海米颱風包括前面的0403的地震的這些災情我都了解因為我自己也是老公務員這個過去也曾經在公共工程委員會上下的一個機關過去我們當然延命會搬走了延命會搬走了"},{"start":313.308,"end":313.909,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":328.911,"end":357.087,"text":"就要招標結果一直流標所以也常常會有這種狀況尤其在這個非常偏遠的地方所以這個部分這個地方政府所提報的也請這個公共工程委員會盡量我們可以請地方政府向這一類比較遠然後這個整個交通不變運送資產也不變成本會比較高所以地方政府應該可以寬列他的這個需求那我們審查的時候會注意到好非常謝謝"},{"start":360.811,"end":361.391,"text":"謝謝!"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1147,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra 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new！燒燙燙的！NCC完全沒有把查緝偽造基地臺納入耶！你們沒有把這個當作一回事！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不會！不會！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啊！就沒有啊！行政院剛開完會啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：打詐2.0它這只是綱領，我們細部的各項措施持續在進行當中。跟委員報告，之前偽基的就是我們抓到的。"],["賴委員士葆：去年你們抓到、查到的偽造基地臺，還NCC敗訴。去年為什麼敗訴？你們抓到偽造基地臺，你們敗訴，幹什麼吃飯的啊？"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告一下，就是法官對於我們委員會在加重處罰部分，他認為那個犯罪的時間跟我們裁處的時間沒有一致，所以他駁回，但我們已經有上訴了。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！你們要抓偽造基地臺……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不管怎麼樣……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有人反對啊！怎麼會你們打官司還打輸啊？這個真漏氣！NCC真漏氣！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們那個錢罰得不對。就是法官抓到我們那個錢罰得不對……"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！這代表你們踢踢踏踏，你們螺絲掉滿地啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：金額不對啦！"],["賴委員士葆：金額不對、方式也不對，取締也不對。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是！不是！"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，3G、4G能不能查偽造基地臺？你們現在只有查2G耶！3G、4G可不可以？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是！這裡所謂的2G、3G在講的是它所發射的頻率啦！"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這些歹徒就是要想辦法，透過各式各樣不同的頻率在發射……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你們有沒有抓3G、4G？你就回答這個問題啦！"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告，2G基地臺的認證，手機的認證方式比較弱一點，3G、4G是雙方要認證，所以他在做偽冒的……"],["賴委員士葆：所以3G、4G你們抓不到就對了？"],["蔡處長國棟：不是抓不到，是它根本進不了我們的網路。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：他根本詐騙不了。"],["賴委員士葆：這就怪了！你到網路市場去買，就可以買到3G、4G。這就怪了！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是！3G、4G的手機是一回事……"],["賴委員士葆：人家市面上都可以買得到。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對，能不能詐騙倒是另外一回事啦！"],["賴委員士葆：就已經有了啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有，現在只有2G。"],["賴委員士葆：現在就有3G、4G啊！網路市面上都可以買，你去買看看。"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你們有沒有努力問一下？去買看看，有沒有？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員，你現在問的……"],["賴委員士葆：你們有沒有去買看看？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員問的是基地臺啦！"],["賴委員士葆：對阿！基地臺，我跟你講基地臺啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：市面上沒有所謂的3G、4G，買得到的3G、4G是手機，不是基地臺。"],["賴委員士葆：所以市面上沒有？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有這種基地臺。"],["賴委員士葆：可是馬來西亞、泰國、韓國就有這種機器啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對，所以我們不准它……"],["賴委員士葆：馬來西亞、韓國、泰國都有啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們會加強，我們在電信公司的網路、網管這邊，只要偵測到任何一個基地臺有異常的使用行為的話，我們就會直接通報我們的電偵隊大隊長去針對這些現場去看……"],["賴委員士葆：主秘，我問你啦！馬來西亞、韓國、泰國有3G的偽造臺，這樣對吧？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：他們有什麼我不知道，但在臺灣目前的話，因為3G、4G必須要雙向認證，所以即便他用這個技術，他也詐騙不到。目前就是因為2G只有一個login的認證而已，而沒有雙向認證，所以這一部分的話，我們才會有去年跟今年總共有3個案件……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你們2G是要雙向認證？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：3G、4G都要雙向認證……"],["賴委員士葆：都要雙向認證？"],["蔡處長國棟：2G只有單向。"],["賴委員士葆：2G可以單向？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：只要單向。"],["賴委員士葆：就只有查到那3……那真的會笑死人！你們偽造基地臺只有3臺，真的太漏氣了！臺灣這麼少嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：就是因為這種方式是不容易詐騙，所以才會這麼少嘛！如果很容易詐騙得到，就很多啦！所以不管怎麼樣，你只要有詐騙發生，只要基地臺有異常使用行為，我們就會請電偵隊到現場去查。"],["賴委員士葆：你可不可以針對我剛才提的問題……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我向委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：2G的現況，以及3G、4G現在為什麼做不到，提一個書面報告可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，我提個書面報告給委員。"],["賴委員士葆：給我，還要給交通委員會，好不好？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員士葆：多久時間？一個禮拜？兩個禮拜？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：兩個禮拜給委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：好。公開哦！兩個禮拜提供一個2G的情況，3G、4G為什麼其他的國家都有？我現在看不出來你防制的手法，好不好？你們之乎也者說一下為什麼做不到。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，我們再給委員詳細報告。"],["主席（陳委員素月）：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接下來邀請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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諸位應該也知道我們2022年3月國防會就公布一個我們2050要邁向這個近鄰的路徑這個我想你應該都看過但是我想要聚焦的還是在於在這個公布之後我當然知道各個部會都啟動了"},{"start":51.756,"end":75.472,"text":"該修法規的修法規該做什麼樣的措施的就做什麼措施那就是希望能夠達到我們國家2050的淨零路徑這樣子的一個目標我知道工程會在2022的8月也公布了一個公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項及相關的減核表"},{"start":77.305,"end":102.147,"text":"剛剛蔡奇昌委員在關心生態檢核表我之前也關心過生態檢核表我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會希望能夠讓各機關都能夠落實做好生態檢核表同樣的我們現在為了推動淨零碳排我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表主委你有看過這個檢核表嗎?"},{"start":105.197,"end":127.072,"text":"你應該沒看過啦這個是比較執行細節我知道你一定沒看過啦但是呢在公共工程委員會所訂的這個減碳減核的注意事項裡面有說各個工程計畫中央目的事業主管機關得益工程規模及性質訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳減核機制並應設定減碳目標"},{"start":134.258,"end":139.69,"text":"那以這個為開始我就要請主委是不是好好的來第一個"},{"start":140.868,"end":166.04,"text":"重新去檢視一下你們內部嚴明現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的減核表這第一個我為什麼這麼說呢因為這裡面的很多的條件或者很多的事項都是各個工程基層工程人員或者甚至是包商必須主動的來勾選跟填寫"},{"start":167,"end":181.546,"text":"那同樣的我上次說生態檢核表他有可能我們基層的這個公共工程的承辦人員他可能對生態不懂所以呢他檢核表我可能不是做得很好"},{"start":182.806,"end":211.386,"text":"現在檢探的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題我之前就提醒過了我們現在對各機關在辦理公共工程的這些相關的公務人員也好或者是公共工程界裡面的包商的相關的專業人員也好到底懂不懂什麼叫節能檢探檢探的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實"},{"start":213.543,"end":235.946,"text":"誰又有第三方單位來驗證那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣子的公權力嗎?主委關於檢探的檢核部分我所了解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候都會按一定比例來這個編制關於碳的盤查"},{"start":236.963,"end":265.235,"text":"那我想這個就一個起步啦主委這個就是我接下來要跟你探討的嘛可是等一下再回答他那樣你自己再回去檢視一下你的檢探的檢核表你們現行的檢探檢核表第一個沒有數據完全都是文字敘述所以呢跟你講的來我就要給你看對每一個機關確實有依他們自己的這個工程特性有去訂一個參考指引我目前找到的是"},{"start":266.016,"end":279.53,"text":"農業部的農村發展與水土保持署他在2023的12月有提出來這個參考指引那現在這個參考指引呢他是用水保工程的參考指引裡面是用"},{"start":280.885,"end":308,"text":"你講的經費、數據依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限那都是用錢啦來做這個你說的碳排上限的計算可是問題是,主委這個用錢來算出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎?"},{"start":309.622,"end":327.256,"text":"以公共工程委員會的角度來看OK不OK?碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了那公共工程委員會裡面有各個部會都開始著手了嗎?我目前找到的是水保署水利署現在這個叫水保署水保"},{"start":328.519,"end":347.696,"text":"水保、水利及水保我剛講是機關機關是水利署做的比較前進一點那目前工程會也參考水利署過去管理碳排氣數的這樣的一個程序那目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位其他都還沒"},{"start":349.917,"end":367.271,"text":"主委 副主委你講跟委員報告就是目前我們大概今年九月當然是剛剛陳儒主委所講的比較走的比較前面比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署那已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是就這加上農業部的水保署就向委員提供資料"},{"start":367.931,"end":382.177,"text":"那其他的我們今年九月的時候那有邀請相關的部會一起過來那目前我們也給他們大家的任務就是明年要完成公共工程明年底前要完成公共工程簡能簡碳的一個指引"},{"start":383.342,"end":411.487,"text":"明年年底以前完成我是希望能夠早就早我們會催促大家請大家來因為有做公共工程的部會太多了那還有我們地方的機關呢對不對又更多了是不是如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話那地方政府怎麼會跟呢地方的機關怎麼會跟呢對不對這第一個第二個那所以你剛剛是告訴我們說水保署他的指引目標你也認為OK"},{"start":414.12,"end":417.117,"text":"所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考可以當範本嗎?"},{"start":419.362,"end":447.225,"text":"如果可以當範本的話那基本上是不用到一年到明年年底跟委員報告因為現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署那因為他們起步比較早他好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情所以我是建議啦那我們之後也會看說各部跟委員報告就是給我一點時間我們跟各部會看各部會的報告上來之後其實我們也要去對齊大家的這種基準跟方法然後跟一些計算的標準我現在又要問你了"},{"start":448.206,"end":452.558,"text":"各部會的計算方法基準通通亂七八糟啦"},{"start":453.922,"end":479.132,"text":"我們公共工程委員會如何去給他一個基本的跟委員報告齁目前我們就做兩件事情嘛就是那個碳排係數已經大概收集了大概一千一千一百多啦一千一百多另外根據我們原本的管理預算的估算系統會增加碳排的估算會結合起來你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到"},{"start":479.352,"end":505.787,"text":"那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後各機關他在比如說他在建置公共建設的時候才有個依據除了預算的估算之外碳排的估算那麼也可以估算主委我是支持的預算我一定會相挺只是我是在提醒就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問我們未來要執行的這個碳"},{"start":506.587,"end":507.249,"text":"和排的這個檢核表我覺得要"},{"start":511.109,"end":535.915,"text":"做到位啦我剛剛就點出來了每個部會每個各項的不同的公共工程包括怎麼探盤查怎麼探管理還有探牌的計算方式通通都不一樣啦你剛剛講的說用價錢工程經費用價錢來估算CO2的這個探牌上限那也只是其中的一個方式啊還當然是最方便啦但是最方便是真的嗎"},{"start":540.427,"end":560.754,"text":"是可信任的嗎?是可靠的數據嗎?剛剛副主委在搖頭欸所以不要便宜行事啊我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點你自己要先有依據先有基準先有準則你才能夠去要求各部會各機關嘛"},{"start":562.103,"end":586.312,"text":"報告關於公共工程的碳排他有前端材料端在生產端基本上不管水泥也好鋼筋也好那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位單位產品的碳排再來就施工階段施工階段當然現場要盤查後端才是維護管理的部分要減碳對啊所以我是提醒說"},{"start":587.612,"end":602.113,"text":"既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程也要邁向2050的淨零碳排的這個路徑那我們就有這個責任要中央帶頭示範要先把一些基準"},{"start":603.195,"end":617.41,"text":"準則依據先搞定我再提醒我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的這些計算方式還有盤查的方式管理的方式還有"},{"start":618.331,"end":637.291,"text":"我再提醒一次用工程預算去試算出來的CO2的排放上限這件事到底能不能是一個基準到底是不是可靠的數據我覺得不能因為它方便結果大家都這樣子直接好像"},{"start":639.418,"end":640.098,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":662.683,"end":663.464,"text":"公共工程委員會單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1020,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時36分）謝謝召委素月委員。我們是不是請公共工程委員會陳金德主委？"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：主委好。午安！不好意思！讓大家都還沒吃午餐，我儘快，有效率地說。","我想主委應該知道，我一直很關注公共工程淨零碳排的時程，還有它怎麼樣去落實。當然主委應該也知道，2022年3月國發會就公布了一個我們2050要邁向淨零的路徑，我想你應該都看過。但是我想要聚焦的還是在於，在這個公布之後，我當然知道各個部會都啟動了，該修法規的修法規，該做什麼樣的措施的就做什麼措施，那就是希望能夠達到我們國家2050淨零路徑的目標。","我知道工程會在2022年8月也公布了一個公共工程節能減碳注意事項及相關的檢核表。剛剛蔡其昌委員在關心生態檢核表，我之前也關心過生態檢核表，我也曾經提醒公共工程委員會，希望能夠讓各機關都落實做好生態檢核表。同樣地，我們現在為了推動淨零碳排，我們又有一個節能減碳檢核表。主委，你有看過這個檢核表嗎？你應該沒看過啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：我請處長……"],["何委員欣純：因為這個是比較執行細節，我知道你一定沒看過啦！但是在公共工程委員會所訂的減碳檢核的注意事項裡面有說，各個工程計畫中央目的事業主管機關得依工程規模及性質，訂定符合機關工程特性之節能減碳檢核機制，並應設定減碳目標。以這個為開始，我就要請主委，第一個，是不是好好地來重新去檢視一下你們內部研擬現在推動的這個公共工程節能減碳的檢核表？我為什麼這麼說呢？因為這裡面的很多條件，或者很多的事項，都是各個基層工程人員，或者甚至是包商必須主動地來勾選跟填寫。同樣地，我上次說有可能我們基層的公共工程承辦人員對生態不懂，所以他的檢核表有可能不是做得很好。","現在減碳的檢核表同樣也會碰到這個問題，我之前就提醒過了，我們現在對於各機關在辦理公共工程相關的公務人員也好，或者是公共工程界裡面的包商等相關的專業人員也好，到底懂不懂什麼叫節能減碳的檢核事項跟這個表格寫的東西到底有沒有如實，誰又有第三方單位來驗證？那公共工程委員會有說了算的這樣的公權力嗎？請教主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：關於減碳的檢核部分，我所瞭解的是目前很多機關的公共工程在預算編列的時候，都會按一定比例來編制關於碳的盤查，我想這個就是一個起步。"],["何委員欣純：好。主委，這個就是我接下來要跟你探討的。可是你自己再回去檢視一下你的減碳檢核表，你們現行的減碳檢核表第一個沒有數據，完全都是文字敘述，所以跟你講的……我就要給你看。對！每一個機關確實有依他們自己的工程特性去訂一個參考指引，我目前找到的是農業部的農村發展與水土保持署，它在2023年12月有提出這個參考指引。那水保工程的參考指引裡面是用你講的經費數據，依照工程經費、工程物價指數和年度的減碳目標算出該工程的碳排上限等等，都是用錢來做你說的碳排上限的計算。可是問題是，主委，用錢來做出這樣的碳排計算的方式OK嗎？以公共工程委員會的角度來看，OK嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：碳排的係數水利署已經在著手了，那公共工程委員會裡面有……"],["何委員欣純：各個部會都開始著手了嗎？我目前找到的是水保署。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，水利署。"],["何委員欣純：現在這個叫水保署。"],["陳主任委員金德：水利及水保……"],["何委員欣純：沒關係！水利跟水保……"],["陳主任委員金德：我剛剛講是機關，機關是水利署做得比較前進一點。目前工程會也參考水利署過去關於碳排係數這樣的統計。"],["何委員欣純：目前只有水保跟水利兩個單位，其他都還沒？"],["陳主任委員金德：請副主委說明。"],["何委員欣純：好，副主委你講。"],["李副主任委員怡德：跟委員報告，當然是誠如剛剛主委所講的，走得比較前面、比較完整大概就是經濟部水利署，已經完成這個節能減碳指引大概就是加上農業部的水保署，就像委員提供的資料。"],["何委員欣純：那其他單位呢？"],["李副主任委員怡德：其他的我們今年9月的時候有邀請相關的部會一起過來，目前我們也給大家任務就是明年要完成公共工程……"],["何委員欣純：明年什麼時候？"],["李副主任委員怡德：明年底前要完成公共工程節能減碳的指引。"],["何委員欣純：明年年底前完成？"],["李副主任委員怡德：對。"],["何委員欣純：我是希望能夠早就早……"],["李副主任委員怡德：我們會催促大家，請大家來提……"],["何委員欣純：因為有做公共工程的部會太多了，那還有我們地方的機關呢？又更多了，是不是？如果我們中央沒有做帶頭示範的話，那地方政府怎麼會跟呢？地方的機關怎麼會跟呢？這是第一個。","第二個，你剛剛是告訴我們說，水保署的指引目標你也認為OK？所以這樣子是可以供各機關參考，可以當範本嗎？如果可以當範本的話，那基本上是不用到一年，到明年年底。"],["李副主任委員怡德：跟委員報告，現在比較完整是經濟部的水利署，因為他們起步比較早，好幾年前就開始在進行這件事情……"],["何委員欣純：所以我是建議……"],["李副主任委員怡德：跟委員報告，給我一點時間。我們看各部會的報告上來之後，其實我們也要去對齊大家的基準跟方法，以及一些計算的標準。"],["何委員欣純：我現在又要問你了。各部會的計算方法、基準通通亂七八糟啦！我們公共工程委員會如何去給它一個基本的……"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，目前我們就做兩件事情，就是碳排係數已經收集了大概一千……"],["何委員欣純：一千一百多啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：一千一百多。另外根據我們原本關於預算的估算系統，會增加碳排的估算，會結合起來……"],["何委員欣純：我知道，你們在這一次編明年度的預算裡面我有看到。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，那就是那個碳排的估算系統建置之後，比方說各機關在建置公共建設的時候，才有個依據。除了預算的估算之外，碳排也可以估算。"],["何委員欣純：主委，我是支持的，預算我一定會相挺。只是我是在提醒，就如同生態檢核表之前有人有提出一些疑問，我們未來要執行的碳排檢核表，我覺得要做到位。我剛剛就點出來了，每個部會、每個各項的不同的公共工程，包括怎麼碳盤查、怎麼碳管理，還有碳排的計算方式通通都不一樣啦！你剛剛講了說用工程經費、用價錢來估算CO2的碳排上限，那也只是其中的一個方式，那當然是最方便，但是最方便是真的嗎？是可信任的嗎？是可靠的數據嗎？剛剛副主委在搖頭耶！所以不要便宜行事啊！我現在就提醒公共工程委員會要針對這一點，你自己要先有依據、先有基準、先有準則，你才能夠去要求各部會、各機關嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：報告，關於公共工程的碳排，它有前端材料端；在生產端，基本上不管水泥也好、鋼筋也好，那一部分他們就會估算說每噸單位產品的碳排，再來就是施工階段……"],["何委員欣純：是啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：施工階段當然現場要盤查，後端才是維護管理的部分要節能減碳。"],["何委員欣純：對啊！所以我是提醒說，既然我們公共工程委員會是在主管公共工程，也要邁向2050淨零碳排的路徑，那我們就有這個責任，要中央帶頭示範，要先把一些基準、準則、依據先搞定。","我再提醒，我們目前的碳排資料庫要怎麼去整合各部會的計算方式、盤查的方式、管理的方式？還有，我再提醒一次，用工程預算去試算出來的CO2排放上限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,{"start":99.864,"end":117.763,"text":"若第16條修正草案透過NCC委員會可能只剩下三位委員那依相關法律規定委員人數未過半無法召開委員會那在手機通訊產品還有審驗部分也可能無法處理那蘋果相關產品審驗則不受影響請問主席這段話是不是你說的"},{"start":124.454,"end":141.066,"text":"主任可能不記得這是你在11月13日接受泰報訪問的時候所說的那7月26日NCC的新聞稿還有媒體報導都表示相關辦法修訂後以後發布的任何手機將不再受到委員人數不足影響那粉絲剛剛也和你勸了你也說不會受影響"},{"start":142.709,"end":161.083,"text":"但你11月13日的時候你又說手機上市審查會受影響是,那就是因為我會受影響所以我把它從原來的因為把它從審議要點裡面那你剛剛是在質詢台上面公然說謊還是你11月13日的時候說謊是,所以委員您把11月13日跟7月26日的日期標出來因為那是經過我檢討過後才不會產生影響"},{"start":169.67,"end":194.621,"text":"那所以會不會受影響?不會受影響那你們看到今年5月8號的時候溫柏中說如果委員人數不足恐導致委員會不能運作可能iPhone16、17等新機認證將無法審查那26號的時候NCC是不是又做了手機的審查作業要點?因為當時就是委員會保留事項必須要從委員會保留事項裡面把它移除那iPhone16是什麼時候在台灣順利上市的?"},{"start":198.444,"end":203.243,"text":" iPhone95年就95年我說iPhone16iPhone16"},{"start":205.982,"end":228.637,"text":"這不是你們NCC在處理的嗎?不是,那個委員您剛才在問的是在5月的那個10點我們翁代主委那時候是翁副主委iPhone16是在9月20號在台灣順利上市的可是主委你11月13日的時候又說了手機通訊產品聲音部分也可能無法處理是誰在鬼打牆?"},{"start":229.684,"end":230.665,"text":"那不是我們說的"},{"start":244.895,"end":268.608,"text":"那不是你們說的嗎?那你們不用處理嗎?是誰在帶方向?誰在放假消息?NCC不用出來說明嗎?呃 跟委員報告 這個 可能我不知道這個 這個太報啊 他的前後文是什麼啦但是委員您剛才在說的 受訪的人是祖密尼吧?我不是說謊 我是 我說受訪 受訪 受訪啊 受訪 是我對啊 那你怎麼會不記得你那一天受訪的時候你說了什麼?"},{"start":272.079,"end":273.441,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":284.909,"end":309.454,"text":"我們看第八點的規定我們看基地台訊號的部分那基地台的執照換補發已經歸類為案件分類授權的主管業務單位辦理並依照分層負責明細進行公文核決成績的相關就業的作業也就是說除了法律修正以外基地台其他相關的業務基本上是由各分處直接辦理即可根本也不用來提交委員會來做審議主委這個說法沒有錯吧這個沒有錯"},{"start":311.454,"end":327.066,"text":"因為這部分其實就是後來我們在講的那個就是委員會委員會議如果假設沒辦法召開的時候就要召開委員的資議會議那資議會議裡面啊他們所那我們換句話說那今天56NCC的委員人數是否充足都不會影響基地台的相關業務這樣說沒有錯吧"},{"start":331.275,"end":333.056,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播"},{"start":351.444,"end":355.529,"text":"公共工程委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":367.944,"end":386.076,"text":"基地台相關業務的話包含設備進口跟基地台的架設以及基地台審驗還有執照的取得它有不同的程序設備的部分它可以進口沒有問題但是問題是它在審驗的部分我們也可以持續進行但是最後那個執照的取得部分就會受影響了"},{"start":387.757,"end":400.987,"text":"接下來我們看到詐騙的部分目前詐騙相關的執法細節已經大家都修法完成了那業務也都是由各區處來做負責那除非要再修訂相關的執法才會召開委員會那即使NCC委員人數不足對打擊詐騙會有影響嗎?"},{"start":403.969,"end":409.872,"text":"有影響比如說最簡單的就是最近我們為了網路詐騙從網際網路來的詐騙電話部分我們在修改070那個號碼管理辦法我們目前在預購當中從108年到112年增加了多少件詐騙案"},{"start":422.365,"end":445.85,"text":"從三萬四千多件暴增到二十二萬九千七百多件,這個增幅高達百分之五百五十七所以我們的防詐手段也一直持續在進行當中進行了什麼?打在1.5嗎?不是,那個是行政院的版本現在是2.0了第一部分的話是語音的部分、簡訊的部分"},{"start":447.146,"end":465.943,"text":"這個我們在持續進行當中另外的話我們後續也針對不同的這些途徑比如說網路電話我們這個也在持續進行當中這一切的措施必須要由委員會議正常進行我才有辦法進行法律的修改、政策的擬定"},{"start":468.065,"end":482.376,"text":"我們也看到這段時間,從108年到112年,國人看到只是NCC不作為。在過去,翁國忠還有陳耀祥,特別擔任政府主委的這段期間,交出了這個令人折舌的罰詐成績單。"},{"start":485.531,"end":507.7,"text":"委員這段我不同意因為我不知道從你不同意那國人同意啊不是現在比如說剛剛前面的舉委員也都有特別也有提到嘛我們的詐騙簡訊大量的減少這個就是這個就是一項一項我們努力的結果另外的話在詐騙國際語音部分主委你知道被詐騙的竟然還是呂昌行高案件數也是啊你列的不是你們是基層的員警"},{"start":509.295,"end":520.306,"text":"不是,是所有累的是大家,倒不是哪一個人,而是我們也要根據詐騙集團今天就是因為NCC打詐不利,還有NCC的不作為我們會持續努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時27分）謝謝主席，請NCC。"],["主席：好，請NCC黃主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：主秘好。主秘，今天有幾個問題來跟您討論。根據NCC於7月26日第1129次委員會議中決議，修正國家通訊傳播委員會議審議事項及授權內部單位辦理事項作業要點、NCC分層負責明細表、委員會議議事要點及法制作業要點。要點修正後，總計58項事項將依修正規定，可授權主委或是代理主委召開委員諮議會議後決定。請問主秘，手機上市的審查是否包含這58項？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，這個分兩塊。手機如果是要申請型式認證的話，因為它第一次進口的樣品要經過核准，這部分的話，我們目前已經從原來的許可制變成核准制。"],["邱委員若華：我這邊針對會議的審議事項，還有授權內部的作業要點第七點還有第十五點之規範，以後發布的任何手機都不會再受到委員人數不足影響。請問主秘，本席說的沒錯吧？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員若華：那接下來會不會受到影響？這邊先跟主秘做確認。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不會。"],["邱委員若華：不會受到影響？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：上次是因為我們有4位委員，4位委員都夠了，所以可以開委員會，那……"],["邱委員若華：沒關係！這邊本席接下來要唸一段話：如果第十六條修正草案通過，NCC委員會可能只剩下3位委員，依相關法律規定，委員人數未過半，無法召開委員會。在手機及通訊產品審驗部分，也可能無法處理，但蘋果相關產品審驗則不受影響。請問主秘，這段話是不是你說的？","主秘你可能不記得，這是你在11月13日接受太報訪問的時候所說的。7月26日NCC的新聞稿，還有媒體報導都表示，相關辦法修訂後，以後發布的任何手機，將不再受到委員人數不足影響。本席剛剛也和你確認，你也說不會受影響啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：現在這件事情是要看……"],["邱委員若華：但11月13日的時候，你又說手機上市審查會受影響？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：那就是因為會受影響，所以我把它從原來的……因為把它從審議要點裡面……"],["邱委員若華：那你剛剛是在質詢臺上面公然說謊，還是你11月13日的時候說謊？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，所以委員您把11月13號跟7月26號的日期標出來，因為那是經過我檢討過後，才不會產生影響。"],["邱委員若華：那所以會不會受影響？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：現在不會受影響。"],["邱委員若華：不會受影響？我們看到，今年5月8號的時候，翁柏宗說如果委員人數不足，恐導致委員會議不能運作，可能iPhone 16、17等認證將無法審查，那26號的時候NCC是不是又做了手機的審查作業要點？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，因為當時就是委員會保留事項，必須要從委員會議保留事項裡面把它移除掉。"],["邱委員若華：那iPhone 16是什麼時候在臺灣順利上市的？"],["蔡處長國棟：iPhone 95年……"],["邱委員若華：我說iPhone 16。這不是你們NCC在處理的嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是！委員您剛才在問的是，在5月的那個時點，我們翁代主委，那時候是翁副主委……"],["邱委員若華：iPhone 16是9月20號在臺灣順利上市，可是主委你11月13號的時候又說了手機通訊產品審驗部分也可能無法處理，是誰在鬼打牆？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是！委員您所舉的是時序的問題。"],["邱委員若華：好，那我接著說。11月15號NCC組織修法通過之後，為什麼16號還有人說手機買不到，基地臺訊號不佳，詐騙集團抓不到，要請藍白負責？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：那不是我們說的。"],["邱委員若華：那不是你們說的，那你們不用處理嗎？是誰在帶風向？誰在放假消息？NCC不用出來說明嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，可能我不知道太報的前後文是什麼，但是委員您剛才在說的……"],["邱委員若華：受訪的人是主秘你吧？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我不是說謊，我是……"],["邱委員若華：我說「受訪」。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：受訪是我，但是……"],["邱委員若華：對，那你怎麼會不記得你那天受訪的時候說了什麼？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這些記者要怎麼寫，我沒有辦法去主導他說你要怎麼寫啊！"],["邱委員若華：那不是你接受訪問嗎？那記者怎麼會這樣子寫？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員，我……"],["邱委員若華：沒關係！我們看第八點的規定，我們看基地臺訊號的部分。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["邱委員若華：基地臺的執照換、補發已經歸類為案件分類，授權主管業務單位辦理，必依照分層負責明細表進行公文核決層級的相關作業。也就是說除了法律修正以外，基地臺其他相關的業務基本上是由各分處直接辦理即可啊！根本也不用提交委員會來做審議。請問主秘，這個說法沒有錯吧？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這部分沒有錯，因為這部分其實就是後來我們在講的那個，就是委員會議假如沒辦法召開的時候，召開委員的諮議會議，那諮議會議裡面，他們所討論過後……"],["邱委員若華：那我們換句話說，今天無論NCC的委員人數是否充足，都不會影響基地臺的相關業務，這樣說沒有錯吧？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：設備的部分是啊！但是基地臺執照部分還是會受影響啊！所以它新設部分會受影響啊！它的……"],["邱委員若華：那為什麼當初會有人說，人數不足會造成iPhone的上市受影響，基地臺的訊號也會受影響，詐騙也會抓不到？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這個就是……那是兩件事情。我們的組織法第九條第二項第六款裡面有規定，公告案、許可案，及對於經營權得喪變更會產生影響的案件，都是委員會議討論的事項。"],["邱委員若華：沒有！主秘，你就針對NCC委員人數是否充足，會不會影響基地臺相關的業務，你直接說嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為基地臺相關業務的話，包含設備進口跟基地臺的架設，以及基地臺審驗，還有執照的取得，它有不同的程序。設備部分的話，它可以進口沒有問題，審驗的部分我們也可以持續進行，但是最後那個執照的取得部分就會受影響了。"],["邱委員若華：接下來我們看到詐騙的部分，目前詐騙相關的子法細則大家已經都修法完成了，業務也都是由各區處來做負責，除非要再修訂相關的子法才會召開委員會。即使NCC委員人數不足，對打擊詐騙會有影響嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：有影響，比如最簡單的就是，最近我們為了網路詐騙，從網際網路來的詐騙電話部分，我們在修改070，那個號碼管理辦法我們目前在預告當中，那預告完之後……"],["邱委員若華：主秘，從108年到112年增加了多少件詐騙案？從三萬四千多件暴增到二十二萬九千七百多件，這個增幅高達557%！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，所以我們的防詐手段也一直持續在進行當中。"],["邱委員若華：進行了什麼？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：第一……"],["邱委員若華：打詐1.5嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，那個是行政院的版本，現在是2.0了。第一部分是屬於語音的部分、簡訊的部分，這個我們在持續進行當中。另外的話，我們後續也針對不同的途徑，比如說網路電話，我們這個也在持續進行當中。這一系列的措施必須要有委員會議的正常進行，我才有辦法進行法令的修改、政策的擬定。"],["邱委員若華：我們也看到這段時間，從108年到112年，國人看到只是NCC不作為。在過去，翁柏宗還有陳耀祥……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們其實是非常努力在做……"],["邱委員若華：分別擔任正、副主委的這段期間，交出這個令人咋舌的打詐成績單。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員，這段我不同意。因為從……"],["邱委員若華：你不同意，那國人同意啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是！剛才前面幾位委員也都有提到嘛！我們的詐騙簡訊大量地減少，這個就是一項我們努力的結果。另外的話，在詐騙國際語音部分……"],["邱委員若華：主秘，你知道被詐騙的金額還是屢創新高，案件數也是。累的不是你們，是基層的員警耶！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是！累的是大家，倒不是哪一個人，而是我們也要根據詐騙集團……"],["邱委員若華：今天就是因為NCC打詐不利，還有NCC的不作為啊！以上。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們會持續努力。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱若華委員。","接下來邀請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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12:27:38","影片長度":"00:09:47","會議時間":"2024-11-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基金預算。\n五、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答；委員預算提案於12月16日中午12時前截止收件】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-28","start_time":"2024-11-28T12:17:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-28T12:27:38+08:00","duration":587,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-12"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.53221875,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.907218750000002,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.59784375,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.75784375,"end":109.53284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.696593750000005,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.713468750000004,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.54971875000001,"end":109.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.92096875,"end":130.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.59284375000001,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.39159375,"end":154.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":151.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.52159375000002,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.57221875000002,"end":154.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.58909375000002,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.97721875000002,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.02784375000002,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.73659375,"end":155.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.88846875000002,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.41909375,"end":181.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.65721875,"end":177.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.93096875,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.53409375,"end":182.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.93909375,"end":208.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.87596875000003,"end":237.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.72346875000002,"end":212.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.92596875,"end":213.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.71221875,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.58534375000002,"end":233.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.00659375,"end":241.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.90471875000003,"end":265.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.20471875000004,"end":266.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.36471875,"end":271.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.23784375,"end":270.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.48659375,"end":271.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.85346875,"end":271.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.14034375,"end":272.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.36284375,"end":281.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.65346875,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.78284375000004,"end":295.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.52909375,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.44846875,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.03096875,"end":331.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.42221875,"end":335.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.75909375000003,"end":336.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.09659375,"end":338.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.07909375,"end":341.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.27659375,"end":370.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.43721875,"end":375.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.97221875,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.52471875000003,"end":384.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.88221875000005,"end":393.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.11284375,"end":402.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.83721875000003,"end":403.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.03534375000004,"end":407.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.64659375,"end":413.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.38471875000005,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.11846875000003,"end":413.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.68784375,"end":413.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.95784375000005,"end":445.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.93596875000003,"end":449.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.78346875000005,"end"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公司再詢問一下。假設一般民眾有在同時一次要發送50則以上的簡訊的話，那他務必要在後端做好KYC。你只要做好KYC的話，他還是可以發送。委員您在提的是另外一段，叫做企業客戶的部分。"],["游委員顥：當然民眾並不是企業客戶啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我知道。"],["游委員顥：但是民眾卻在傳送訊息的時候被認定為企業客戶啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。假設民眾有一次傳送超過50則的話，這部分我們會再請我們電信事業……"],["游委員顥：那您覺得在溝通的過程中，民眾不管是在學術、喜宴或是活動邀請上的方式，甚至在有獎徵答或是在比賽票選的時候，如果他們用這種表單的方式傳遞，大約是可以簡訊提升到多少則數，才不會去擾民？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：根據我們過去有統計過的結果，特殊情形當然例外，一般正常的話，大概一天發到50則是差不多一般人的使用習慣。如果說你一次真的有要發送到50則以上的話，你可以打電話到客服那邊去，跟電信公司的客服講說這一次是不是讓我可以開通到50則以上。"],["游委員顥：這個部分的話，本席還是要在這裡建議NCC，因為一般的民眾他們在喜宴、學術研究，或是在票選，他們並不知道說還要跟NCC或是還要跟電信業者講這一塊。我是覺得在這種的設定上要合理，商業歸商業，民用歸民用，本席還是建議在這樣的處理上，不管在則數或在宣導上，還是予以改進。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們在這種常態性的規定之外，是不是要做一些例外的設定，我再跟……"],["游委員顥：沒關係，這個就交給你來讓社會大眾知道。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["游委員顥：另外再補充，延續剛才魯明哲委員所提到的，NCC編的律師訴訟費從150萬再到710萬，再到一千多萬，本席還是要請教，這裡面是中天相關的訴訟案件大約多少件以及多少比例？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：目前的話，中天現在總共是26件。"],["游委員顥：花了多少的訴訟費？"],["林處長慧玲：不好意思！如果是從108年6月到113年9月30日，裁處案的部分目前的金額是619萬7,000元，單件是平均十二萬多。"],["游委員顥：那本席還是建議，就是中天換照的部分，我在想NCC還是不要做其他人的打手，編了律師的訴訟費，再戕害媒體自由跟獨立性。本席建議，在這種律師訴訟費的使用，如果今天是因為中天關臺之後不斷地往上編，本席認為這樣子的律師訴訟費跟這種打手行為還是極不合理。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是！不是！在我們不予換照之前，其實就有陸陸續續的訴訟在進行。"],["游委員顥：沒有！這是不斷地提高，這個是看得出來的數據。沒關係，這就檢討啦！好不好？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。我接著要請陳金德主委。"],["主席：請工程會陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["游委員顥：主委好。本席在這裡要再次感謝對於南投災後重建的協助，預算書的執行率都非常地有成效。但是針對剛才大家持續討論的，不管是孔繁琦，或者是包括申訴審議委員會的名單，以及諮詢委員會的名單，本席在這裡還是要跟主委以及工程會來討論。本席剛才在提案的部分都有在聽、有在瞭解。其實今天像是國策顧問、行政院顧問，還有縣政顧問，到市公所顧問都是公開資訊，那在公共工程委員會所謂的諮詢委員，為何他無法公開？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，申訴委員的功能有申訴功能，等同於訴願，所以他有公開。那諮詢委員部分，當事人如果他不同意公開，我們也沒有辦法公開，我們必須去徵詢諮詢委員的意見。"],["游委員顥：主委，這個其實我剛才也都聽很久啦！這3個小時都在聽這些相關的訊息。本席在這裡還是要建議，政府機關的諮詢委員其實就像是一個顧問性質，不管他是按件計酬或是有給職顧問，像縣政顧問或者是包括許多的行政顧問，有包括有給職，也有義務無給職。如果機關的諮詢委員沒有辦法公開的話，那其實反而成為一種黑箱。今天的諮詢委員應該是一個榮譽的事情，如果把這樣子的諮詢委員能夠讓社會大眾瞭解的話，也更強化了政府機關的公信力，或是包括他要諮詢的管道。","如果他沒有公開，讓公家機關成為要諮詢的管道或唯一窗口的時候，反而任何關說的壓力就會變成集中在公務員身上。今天成為諮詢委員本來就不應該成為關說的窗口，但是諮詢委員本來就有一個他專業角色的公正性。如果說連地方的調解委員會都是公開訊息，我相信能夠擔任諮詢委員就應該是經得起考驗的。我也相信不管是以前的主委，到您擔任主委之後所聘任的諮詢委員，他們都應該要經得起考驗，這個相信也沒有問題。所以本席還是在這裡說出，就是希望能夠把諮詢委員會60位的名單提供給交通委員會的委員做參考。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們回去徵詢諮詢委員的意願，不過沒有公開這件事情並不是我就任以來才有的。"],["游委員顥：我知道，是以前一直以來。所以我就說這些諮詢委員的責任不一定是在於誰，而是在於是一路聘下來的，那到底他適不適任，以及包括他是不是有被討論，但是我覺得至少今天的諮詢委員都應該是為工程會加分，不僅是工程會，包括各部會相關的諮詢委員其實也應該要公開，因為這種是一個榮譽職，也是為政府機關在協助的角色。他本來就不用擔心說他會不會成為關說的窗口，因為他本來就應該具備他的公正性；那也不應該讓公家機關的公務員背負著任何被諮詢的時候，還被人家質疑的罪。所以本席還是建議，不僅是其他部會，包括工程會在內，可以針對諮詢委員，在一個月內徵詢完了之後就做公開。另外不願意公開的諮詢委員，我們也要慎重地來思考他不願意被公開的原因在哪裡，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員發言。","接下來邀請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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},{"start":74.944,"end":79.671,"text":"說這個比如說以哈的問題、臺海的問題跟烏克蘭的那個烏俄戰爭的問題那在這個裡面呢我們發現他們是18歲到29歲裡面是在所有的age group裡面對臺海問題最無感"},{"start":90.107,"end":113.007,"text":"然後呢再往下這一個就是我上下兩個圖嘛下面那一個是認為就是說對他自己而言臺海的問題重不重要他們的18到29歲是所有的age group裡面最低只有到四成而已也就是說呢他們對這件事情沒有什麼感覺那這不是他們的問題因為畢竟他們關心的是他們自己國家的事務那臺海畢竟對他們有點遠啦"},{"start":114.648,"end":132.289,"text":"我當然還擔心的事情就是跟之前一模一樣就是但是問題是他們會看比如說看TikTok看各式各樣的社群平台那現在中國在這間社群平台的聲音是特別大所以久而久之他們常常會接觸到一個訊息就是就我們自己的研究我們就發現中國很喜歡去講說台海的問題很複雜"},{"start":133.59,"end":136.152,"text":"中東問題一樣都很複雜你這個沒事不要隨便選邊站兩邊的人其實都很有問題大概這一類的話現在變得越來越多年輕人因為常常看這樣的東西所以國外的年輕人會漸漸形成一個氛圍就是那邊的議題不要隨便碰觸"},{"start":153.404,"end":177.743,"text":"這個對我們來講就會有差別因為他不只會反映在他們對政治人物的態度上面也會反映在今天不管是誰在執政我說美國他去選舉所拋出來的政策他要去關心一般民意的想法所以我們現在就是說就是我最後這個問題就是尤其是在美國對他們的年輕族群這個有點像是公眾外交的部分我們現在有什麼比較好的措施"},{"start":178.143,"end":178.163,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":193.307,"end":215.223,"text":"對美來講我覺得州政府還有相關的這個更草根的層次我們是會做一個重點那當然除了州的意思對因為這次川普的支持有一些其實是非建制派的不是那種傳統這個保守主義的他來自於很基層的草根"},{"start":215.643,"end":237.879,"text":"所以我們在這個方面要跟他對接那另外當然臺美之間的合作計劃也有這些比較意見領袖的怎麼透過他們再去影響不管是臺美教育倡議還有這個有關於這些像Fruit by Scholarship或者是美國青年意見領袖訪問團國際青年精英領袖研習辦這些意見領袖也是很重要因為"},{"start":238.559,"end":261.652,"text":"除了這次選舉比較是內政導向跟他們的一些經濟但是外交我想呈現在一些民調上是也很有意思就是說其實除了參眾院的投票其實單單的這個撥款法案其實台灣、以色列跟這個烏克蘭我們就是得到最多支持所以參眾議員的其實也反映他對於民意只是說很多人對台灣不認識但對中國是認為他是敵意國家"},{"start":264.574,"end":283.133,"text":"可是怎麼樣增加對台灣的認識這個就是我們的空間所以比如說我們現在美國在台灣有24個州都設有經貿辦事處那我就跟我們外交部同仁講我們活動要找他們因為他們反向會回去影響他們的州你們跟台灣的投資貿易的關係所以一定要到subnational"},{"start":284.294,"end":285.295,"text":"現在的社會影響力包括第二代都組織起來"},{"start":301.291,"end":302.951,"text":"對於所謂的認知作戰假訊息對於所謂華人社會透過TITO的影響他們很有危機感"},{"start":323.616,"end":351.526,"text":"台灣他們又覺得我們可以經驗分享我想委員也常常幫我們扮演這個角色所以這個工作也是要進入總和外交去對接從中央到地方行政立法以及各個社會的這個可以說各個領域對我覺得剛剛部長提到很重要的就是subvention policy就是說我們現在對各種尤其是又是對他們的年輕人有些時候他們對於中國可能已經認識了但台灣是不夠了解"},{"start":352.386,"end":370.942,"text":"這個雖然是一體兩面但對我們來講很重要尤其是你要去破他們那個講法說這個情勢很複雜中國台灣都各有各的問題所以請不要亂碰觸那他如果不夠了解台灣他就會誤中這個陷阱我們在多年前我們跟日本的關係其實也是日本對中國相對來講有了解而且也認為中國是有一定的敵意"},{"start":371.582,"end":395.644,"text":"但對台灣其實是在那一次大捐款之後越來越多是一般民眾對於台灣的瞭解那雖然我們不可能會有那麼多的事件可以去展現這些善意但畢竟透過一些比較就剛剛提到的總和外交的方式應該可以讓更多的美國公眾尤其是年輕人瞭解我們那剛剛有提到我覺得很重要是NGO啦因為NGO畢竟是一個算是面對的這一個一般民眾的一個算是一個終結點"},{"start":397.125,"end":424.832,"text":"那這個中介點的NGO呢我們除了國內外的這個整合之外我這一次看到就是我們有這一個這個我今天跳過就是我們的NGO領袖論壇那NGO領袖論壇這個目標受眾其實我覺得就很重要因為我們希望NGO能夠第一個當然是我們能夠協助什麼但再來就是NGO他們這邊目標受眾他能不能把我們想要傳達的意思又能夠再帶回去我覺得這個應該是特別重要的事情那因為我們現在也有民主基金會民主基金會跟國內的NGO"},{"start":426.152,"end":428.013,"text":"目前國內外串聯的狀況 是不是可以請部長稍微說明一下是 除了民主基金會我們NGO其實預算有限但我發現我們有一個窗口跟就是作為資訊"},{"start":447.958,"end":468.196,"text":"那很多的交流我們要找相關業務部會一起做比如說我們現在加入世界衛生組織那種的醫療公衛很多的這個相關的NGO那同樣的這個智庫外交也是或者是說我們在推動經貿外交等那這個部分其實大家對台灣現在是有好感"},{"start":468.696,"end":468.916,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":499.068,"end":512.996,"text":"他如果能夠也加入到外交學院我們在講的那些東西的話或許也會是一個很大的幫助因為他可以深入理解嘛不然有時候都是比如說見個面可能一個小時半個小時那大家講的話不夠多那就變成說會比較像是形式上的交流"},{"start":513.536,"end":539.858,"text":"另外我跟委員也報告其實我在臺東市長我就想推INGO當時其實外交部也支持可是後來當然接我的市長他沒有要做不然其實INGO臺灣現在因為香港的問題對越來越多成立了臺灣因為這中共這個秘密這個境外資訊操弄還有非常多臺灣多元的文化也好各種的這個這個對接我們怎麼樣透過外交部做一個hub"},{"start":540.718,"end":541.198,"text":"時間到了,謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":868,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（13時18分）謝謝主席，有請林部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：我還是要講一下，主席，非本委員會的委員有時候講話的時間好像比本委員會的委員還要長，所以我剛剛等的有點太久了，我知道主席不好意思，但是他們有些人真的講太久了，對不對？","我想問一下部長，因為今天是預算，所以我想還是針對預算的部分，第一個是我之前一直在講的，就是我們在外交的時候會去接觸國外的這些議員、他們的官員、包含他們的智庫，但是有一部分其實還是跟他們的人民接觸，這個很重要，當然僑委會負責的一小部分，但外交部其實應該也是主責的單位。因為我最近在看NPR的出口民調，第一個他們說民主黨這一次年輕選票流失非常多，其實這一次川普的票跟上一次差距不大，但是這一次賀錦麗的票顯然跟拜登的是有差距，很明顯他掉的大部分都是年輕人。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：然後在這個民調裡面我們可以看到他們有問，譬如以哈的問題、臺海的問題跟烏俄戰爭的問題，在這個裡面我們發現，他們18歲到29歲是在所有的age group裡面對臺海問題最無感的；然後再往下這一個，就是上下兩個圖，下面那一個是，對他自己而言臺海的問題重不重要？他們的18到歲29歲是所有的age group裡面最低，只有到四成而已，也就是說他們對這件事情沒有什麼感覺，這不是他們的問題，因為他們關心的是他們自己國家的事物，臺海畢竟對他們有點遠。","當然我還擔心的事情就是跟之前一模一樣，但是問題是他們會看，譬如看TikTok、看各式各樣的社群平台，現在中國在這些社群平台的聲音是特別大，所以久而久之他們常常會接觸到一個訊息，在我們自己的研究就發現，中國很喜歡去講：臺海的問題很複雜，跟中東問題一樣都很複雜，你沒事不要隨便選邊站，兩邊的人其實都很有問題。大概這一類的話現在變得越來越多，年輕人因為常常看這樣的東西，所以國外的年輕人會漸漸形成一個氛圍就是那邊的議題不要隨便碰觸。這個對我們來講就會有差別，因為他不只會反映在他們對政治人物的態度上面，也會反映在今天不管是誰在執政，譬如美國，他去選舉所拋出來的政策，他要去關心一般民意的想法。","所以現在我最後這個問題，尤其是在美國，對於他們的年輕族群有點像是公眾外交的部分，我們現在有什麼比較好的措施？然後有沒有在這次的預算上面能夠被展現出來的？"],["林部長佳龍：是，跟委員報告，確實民主國家對於民意，每一票都是一個聲音，我覺得對美來講，針對州政府還有相關更草根的層次我們是會做一個重點，當然除了……"],["沈委員伯洋：就是各州的意思。"],["林部長佳龍：對，因為這次川普的支持有一些其實也是非建制派的，不是那種傳統保守主義的，他來自於很基層的草根，所以我們在這個方面要跟他對接。另外當然臺美之間的合作計畫也有，這些比較是意見領袖的怎麼透過他們再去影響，不管是臺美教育倡議、還有有關於像Fulbright Scholarship、或者是美國青年意見領袖訪問團、國際青年菁英領袖研習班，這些意見領袖也是很重要。因為說來這次選舉比較是內政導向跟他們的一些經濟，但是外交方面我想呈現在一些民調上是也很有意思，就是其實除了參眾院的投票，單單就這個撥款法案，其實在臺灣、以色列跟烏克蘭當中，我們就是得到最多支持，所以參眾議員其實也反映民意，只是很多人對臺灣不認識，但對中國是認為他是敵意國家。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。"],["林部長佳龍：可是怎麼樣增加對臺灣的認識這個就是我們的空間，比如現在美國在臺灣有24個州都設有經貿辦事處，我就跟我們外交部同仁講，我們活動要找他們，因為他們反向會回去影響他們州跟臺灣的投資貿易的關係，所以一定要到sub-national，不能只是national或是international，所以到sub-national層次的外交，包括公眾外交。你看現在在美國的臺商會，過去是很多臺僑同鄉會，現在其實他們社會影響力，包括第二代都組織起來，所以我們現在的NGO也好、我們的公眾會還有相關的組織，我都鼓勵要跟他們對接，我很多行程都盡可能排，因為你有去跟這些人互動之後，他就會成為我們的分身，回到美國、當然包括加拿大，而且他們對於現在所謂的認知作戰與假訊息、對於華人社會透過TikTok的影響很有危機感，那臺灣他們又覺得我們可以經驗分享，我想委員也常常幫我們扮演這個角色，所以這個工作也是要進入總合外交去對接，從中央到地方、行政、立法以及社會各個領域。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得剛剛部長提到很重要的就是sub-national policy，就是我們現在對各州、尤其又是針對他們的年輕人，有些時候他們對於中國可能已經認識了，但對臺灣是不夠了解。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個雖然是一體兩面，但對我們來講很重要，尤其是你要去破他們那個講法，說：這個情勢很複雜、中國、臺灣都有各個問題，所以請不要亂碰觸。那他如果不夠了解臺灣，他就會誤中這個陷阱。我們在多年前跟日本的關係其實也是，日本對中國相對來講有了解，而且也認為中國是有一定的敵意，但對臺灣其實是在那一次大捐款之後越來越多是一般民眾對於臺灣的了解。雖然我們不可能會有那麼多的事件可以去展現這些善意，但畢竟透過一些比較……例如剛剛提到的總合外交的方式，應該可以讓更多的美國公眾、尤其是年輕人了解我們。","剛剛有提到我覺得很重要的是NGO，因為NGO畢竟算是一個一個面對一般民眾的中介點，這個中介點的NGO我們除了國內外的整合之外，我這一次看到就是我們有這個……這個我今天先跳過，就是我們的NGO領袖論壇，NGO領袖論壇這個目標受眾其實我覺得就很重要，因為我們希望NGO……第一個當然是我們能夠協助什麼，再來就是NGO他們這些目標受眾能不能把我們想要傳達的意思又能夠再帶回去，我覺得這個應該是特別重要的事情。因為我們現在也有民主基金會，民主基金會跟國內的NGO也會有一定的對接，但我看這部分出席的等等之類的，有時候國內的好像也不夠多，當然是有很多國外的，目前國內外串聯的狀況是不是可以請部長稍微說明一下？"],["林部長佳龍：是，除了民主基金會，我們NGO其實預算有限，但我發現我們有一個窗口做為資訊，很多的交流我們要找相關業務部會一起做，比如我們現在加入世界衛生組織，要找那種醫療公衛很多相關的NGO；同樣的，智庫外交也是，或者是我們在推動經貿外交等。這個部分其實大家對臺灣現在是有好感，因為不管我們的民主或者我們的半導體這些科技，怎麼去促進我們外交部做一個核心，比如我們的外交學院，以前可能就純粹是我們外交官的訓練，可是我們現在怎麼樣去跟這些NGO、智庫或相關的，比如去對接在臺灣的州政府代表，所以我在一些活動現在都儘量邀請擴及到，讓它可以比較跨領域、比較跨界。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，他如果能夠也加入到外交學院我們在講的那些東西的話，或許也會是一個很大的幫助，因為他可以深入理解，不然有時候都是……比如見個面可能1個小時、半個小時，大家講的話不夠多，就會變成比較像是形式上的交流，如果他能……"],["林部長佳龍：另外我也跟委員報告，我在當臺中市長時就想推INGO，當時其實外交部也支持，可是後來接我的市長沒有要做，不然其實INGO，臺灣現在因為香港的問題，還有……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，越來越多成立了。"],["林部長佳龍：臺灣因為這中共FIMI──境外資訊操弄，還有非常多臺灣多元的文化也好、各種的對接，我們怎麼樣透過外交部做一個hub，這個我也是希望在總合外交下面，我們在業務報告有大概10項，NGO外交相關的比如文化外交、運動外交，就是外交的內容不能只是雙邊的政務，因為大家都想交流，所以我們外交部可以做一個平台。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為有一些關於交流的細項和成效，我大概有兩三個細項在預算的時候會再來好好做討論，我就不在這邊問了。","時間到了，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，部長請回。","已登記質詢委員除不在場者外已經發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有羅美玲委員、黃仁委員、王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分、要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供；委員另約定期限者從期所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec25796699ea0cb87d998648fde9c36da10785a7c65110af43dc70907d6d5c14b1ef24585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:10:13 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體合作有他的立場，可是這個角色的問題，因為你問我做過很多工作，所以我也常常換工作……"],["葉委員元之：它是媒體啦，它是類似BBC、NHK這樣的媒體。"],["林部長佳龍：現在對媒體的定義，有線、無線跟新媒體匯流之後的網路新媒體、社群媒體……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你希望當文化部長是不是？你是不是想當文化部長？在跟我討論這個事情！"],["林部長佳龍：沒有啦，我是說因為……"],["葉委員元之：你是外交部長，雖然你可能無法忘情過去的職務……"],["林部長佳龍：不是啦，是討論一下……"],["葉委員元之：現在我跟你講，因為我們是站在外交角度，我們認為他做了豬隊友，如果部長你……"],["林部長佳龍：我剛才講的是站在外交角度，個人的立場、機構的立場跟國家的立場，這不太一樣。"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，現在沒有個人立場，現在你們有很多外交人員在做對美關係，大家都希望臺美關係更進一步，特別是川普上任之後他很強勢啊，我們當然可能需要花更多心力在對美關係上面，如果我們跟他保持好關係的同時，臺灣的公營媒體、臺灣人出的錢的媒體是這樣子不斷去描述川普的負面標籤，我覺得很不妥當。"],["林部長佳龍：其實……"],["葉委員元之：我希望部長你站在外交角度去跟文化部長講一下，現在大家都講全民外交啊，現在你難道希望……"],["林部長佳龍：總合外交。"],["葉委員元之：總合外交、全民外交一樣的意思啦！"],["林部長佳龍：人人都是外交官、部部都是外交部。"],["葉委員元之：人人都是外交官嘛，然後現在我們動不動、假設國人去美國就一直說川普就是一個被定刑的重刑犯，一直講這種東西有辦法做到嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：個人的言論是一個層次，但是代表你的組織、機構、尤其是媒體，那是另外一回事。"],["葉委員元之：對啦，但我們不希望大家這樣嘛，你說總合外交，你難道希望我們的國人出去都講川普壞話嗎？你當然希望大家維持好關係，這是你的期許，他怎麼講你不要控制他，因為他是個人，可是你總不希望他這樣做吧？還是你希望？你不會希望嘛！所以是不是可以跟文化部講一下，因為他們現在我覺得是冥頑不靈，他們不斷的強調自己是對的，我覺得這是最可怕的，你不小心失誤你改就好了嘛，但你一直強調你是對的。開玩笑！那以後你是要不斷的強調川普是重刑犯這件事情喔？有必要嗎？有必要嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我再來了解一下文化部長他的心聲跟他的主導的狀況。"],["葉委員元之：你跟他講一下，好不好？我們是站在外交的角度，完全沒有說你做不好的地方，就是希望你跟他說一下。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為這是總合外交的一環，要配合外交部做一些良善、正能量、三好運動，說好話、做好事、存好心。謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，部長請回。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在場。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在場。","王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在場。","接下來我們請沈伯洋委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966b94ca3d4be07a079fde9c36da10785a7c65110af43dc7090dc5543f29fdbc7c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"13:04:41 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對不對"},{"start":44.775,"end":72.449,"text":"至少馬總統的慣例是這樣。您最了解,對。對啊對啊。那我不太懂為什麼賴總統要這麼神秘啊?是有什麼難言之隱呢?還是有什麼不可告人呢?我想就是出訪嘛,很多配套,那怎麼樣去做好公共訊息。好啦,部長今天也答不出來。今天就清楚了啦。因為所有的相關的報導。所以今天就會公佈了對不對?"},{"start":73.689,"end":97.784,"text":"就是會有進一步的對外的說明我是建議這種東西不用掉到他胃口去哪就去哪說實在也到底當然如果真的有特殊考量我就跟國人說清楚但顯然我看現在政府也沒交代為什麼為什麼別的總統會公佈那我們這一次賴總統要這麼神秘還是說神秘是賴總統的風格不知道但不管怎麼樣我們中視還是希望賴總統這個出訪順利成功"},{"start":101.547,"end":124.062,"text":"另外一個問題就是這一次再次請教部長我也不太懂為什麼陳總統、馬總統、蔡總統第一任當選不是八月出訪就是六月出訪大概都三個月內出訪了然後呢而且一定會去過境美國西岸也就是說僑胞最多的地方那這一次雖然你沒講到底是關島還是夏威夷但顯然因為"},{"start":125.103,"end":139.461,"text":"我對於出訪的路徑安排也有點概念啊你訪問南太平洋就不可能是到美國的本土去啦 對不對那一定要嘛就關島要嘛就夏威夷嘛 對不對那我就不懂為什麼這一次沒有相同的規劃為什麼這一次又不去美國的本土呢"},{"start":141.225,"end":156.093,"text":"最主要是太平洋這三個國家今年都在年底的時間是可以接待我們元首出訪他們也都在選舉從年初到年末包括帛琉也剛選完"},{"start":157.854,"end":169.909,"text":"因為他們都來參加520我打個段一點點其實這個因為大家每年選舉的安排是差不多時間的不管是美國也好友邦也好其實你講的選舉的考量在馬總統陳總統跟蔡總統也都是有阿"},{"start":175.493,"end":201.593,"text":"我們已經五年沒有去太平洋地區這些島國（我跟你講有跟部長如果是我在總統府當然除了你有特殊考量我跟你講我就去訪問巴拉圭然後就過境美國然後再馬上訪問南太平洋或是我訪問巴拉圭過境美國再轉到南太平洋都是可以的安排可是顯然你們今天南美跟南太是比較困難一點"},{"start":203.054,"end":225.667,"text":"我還是可以安排如果你有心安排飛過去你還是有辦法安排啦但是不管怎麼樣講就是說他不是互賜性的嘛你既可以訪問南美一樣可以訪問所謂南泰嘛他沒有互賜所以因此我不認為互賜是個理由但是我另外一件事情我要跟我要跟部長說齁其實坦白講為什麼大家會去在乎說今天總統當選之後"},{"start":228.088,"end":257.088,"text":"這在最快時間內能夠過境美國同時過境美國本土是跟一個東西有關就是跟臺灣民眾的安全想像有關你認不認同我們跟美國現在關係真的是很有互信的基礎對對對對對那我跟你講我跟部長說因為這互信基礎其實存在於您的嘴巴的說明但是對臺灣民眾來講美國是我們重要的那個所謂的非常重要的盟友嘛對不對"},{"start":257.708,"end":278.889,"text":"那這種情況之下台灣人民覺得看到總統今天一當選新總統一當選就能夠到美國本土去的時候他其實是會產生比較強的所謂安全想像這是為什麼歷來的總統都把當選之後造訪美國本土作為第一要務就是因為台灣人民的民心的安定很重要"},{"start":279.369,"end":294.528,"text":"那你今天過去總統都做得到到美國本土訪問那給予台灣人民足夠的安全想像而如果賴總統今天做不到這件事情的話那你也不能怪說今天房間有些人對這事情產生擔憂啊這擔憂應該也很合理吧對不對"},{"start":295.91,"end":323.591,"text":"這擔憂不太需要但很快就會澄清你覺得不太需要但是我剛剛就說你因為我們大概從比如說不管是蔡總統或賴總統其實我們都跟美國都有很好的溝通協調有關出訪的事情那包括去年賴總統當副總統當總統特使到巴拉圭過去過去做得很好未來要做更好啦但是我要跟部長說反過來說就是說難道您覺得說其實總統當選在最短時間內過境美國本土其實是一點都不重要"},{"start":324.841,"end":336.07,"text":"過去總統這樣做其實也不重要就想太多也不用管台灣人民到底有沒有安全的想像因為這一定基於主客觀跟雙方面覺得最適當的時間跟地點因為最近因為太平洋三個國家他們就一直邀請我們要去而且他們都今年初這是馬薩爾群島跟獨瓦魯選出新的總統跟總理阿伯留又就是總統連任所以這個時間我們認為三個國家排在一起"},{"start":353.363,"end":374.264,"text":"我還是跟部長講因為真的不是互賜啦當然賴總統累一點點跑個兩趟maybe OK啦但是真的不是互賜如果你今天在八月你學馬總統陳總統或是蔡總統八月你就去訪問巴拉圭過境美國那你現在一樣可以訪問南泰啊所以我才講不是互賜嘛"},{"start":375.765,"end":404.46,"text":"有時候我們訪問也會考慮到他們的比如說就職阿或什麼樣特殊的慶典阿我知道啦當然會有但是說實在話真的有心要訪問齁你一定會找出一個方式安排啦這個就是這當然就是外交部要努力的地方嘛因為不要輕忽這個所謂的安全想因為說實在話我自己就會非常擔心阿因為我擔心的是什麼我擔心是說不要舉例子有人就說欸其實不要在乎這些東西這些東西也不重要"},{"start":405.02,"end":432.905,"text":"那我告訴你不重要就更重要為什麼?如果這麼不重要的事情也就能夠換得人民的安全想像就這一點外交部都做不到那我覺得對外交部能力會打折扣啦或者還是說今天美國不讓你做得到那就抱歉那就不能怪人家覺得美國有依賴論所以這件事情不要以為它是表面上的象徵性它實際上攸關某些部分我們講安全想像拜託部長真的當然過去就過去啦後面趕快安排好不好"},{"start":433.949,"end":456.857,"text":"我們也有有序的安排因為立法院也有編列預算嘛就像我們今年也一定是說在出訪上雖然是年底壓軸雖然是先到南派還有綜合的我們的規劃後續的出訪也會依據委員提醒的重點那部長再加油一下謝謝你一起努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時56分）有請部長。"],["主席：請林佳龍部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：賴總統是後天11月30日要出訪南太平洋的友邦，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：請問部長，他會不會過境夏威夷跟關島？"],["林部長佳龍：這個部分總統府方面會進一步對外說明。"],["羅委員智強：我很好奇，因為我也在總統府工作過，也陪馬總統出訪過很多次，馬總統任內歷次出訪，如果有安排過境美國，公布出訪行程的同時，也會同時公布過境地點，沒錯吧？慣例是這樣嘛，至少馬總統的慣例是這樣，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：您最了解，對。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！那我就不太懂，為什麼賴總統要這麼神秘，是有什麼難言之隱？還是有什麼不可告人呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我想出訪有很多的配套，怎麼樣去做好公共訊息……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！部長也答不出來……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，沒有，今天就清楚啦，因為所有相關的配套……"],["羅委員智強：所以今天就會公布了，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：就是會有進一步的對外說明。"],["羅委員智強：我建議這種東西就不用吊大家胃口，去哪就去哪，當然如果真的有特殊考量，就跟國人說清楚，但顯然現在政府也沒交代，為什麼別的總統會公布，這次賴總統要這麼神秘？還是說神秘是賴總統的風格？但不管怎麼樣，我們都還是希望賴總統這次出訪順利成功。","另外一個問題再請教部長，我不太懂，為什麼陳總統、馬總統、蔡總統第一任當選，不是8月出訪，就是6月出訪，大概都在三個月內出訪，而且一定會過境美國西岸，也就是僑胞最多的地方。這一次雖然你沒有講到底是關島還是夏威夷，因為我對出訪的路徑安排也有一點概念，訪問南太平洋就不可能到美國的本土，要不就是關島，要不就是夏威夷，對不對？我就不懂，為什麼這一次沒有相同的規劃？為什麼這次不去美國本土？"],["林部長佳龍：最主要是南太平洋這三個國家，今年都是年底的時間可以接待我們元首出訪，他們從年初到年末都在選舉，包括帛琉也剛選完。因為他們也都來參加520……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我打斷一點點，其實大家每年選舉的安排都是差不多的時間，不管是美國也好，友邦也好，你講的選舉的考量，在馬總統、陳總統跟蔡總統也都有啊！"],["林部長佳龍：可是我們已經五年沒有去太平洋地區這些島國訪問。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，如果是我在總統府，除了有特殊考量，我想就去訪問巴拉圭，然後過境美國，再馬上訪問南太平洋，或是訪問巴拉圭、過境美國再轉到南太平洋，都是可以的安排啊！可是顯然你們今天……"],["林部長佳龍：南美跟南太是比較困難一點的。"],["羅委員智強：還是可以安排，如果你有心安排，飛過去，你還是有辦法安排啦，但是不管怎麼樣講就是它不是互斥性的嘛，你既可以訪問南美，一樣可以訪問南太，它沒有互斥，因此我不認為互斥是個理由。","但是另外一件事情我要跟部長說，其實坦白講為什麼大家會去在乎今天總統當選之後在最快時間內能夠過境美國、同時過境美國本土？是跟一個東西有關，就是跟臺灣民眾的安全想像有關，你認不認同？"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟美國現在關係真的是很有互信的基礎……"],["羅委員智強：對、對！"],["林部長佳龍：而且越來越好。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，因為這個互信基礎其實存在於您嘴巴的說明，但是對臺灣民眾來講，美國是我們非常重要的盟友，對不對？這種情況之下，臺灣人民覺得看到總統一當選就能夠到美國本土去的時候，他其實是會產生比較強的安全想像，這是為什麼歷來的總統都把當選之後造訪美國本土做為第一要務，就是因為臺灣人民民心的安定很重要。過去總統都做得到到美國本土訪問，給予臺灣人民足夠的安全想像，而如果賴總統今天做不到這件事情的話，那你也不能怪說今天坊間有些人對這件事情產生擔憂，這擔憂應該也很合理吧，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：這擔憂不太需要，但很快就會澄清。"],["羅委員智強：你覺得不太需要，但是我剛剛就說你……"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們大概從……不管是蔡總統或賴總統，其實我們跟美國都有很好的溝通協調，有關出訪的事情……"],["羅委員智強：那這樣……"],["林部長佳龍：包括去年賴總統當副總統時……"],["羅委員智強：我換個角度問……"],["林部長佳龍：當總統特使到巴拉圭過境也是……"],["羅委員智強：很好啊，過去做得很好，未來要做更好啦！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["羅委員智強：但是我要跟部長說，反過來說，難道您覺得其實總統當選後在最短時間內過境美國本土是一點都不重要，過去總統這樣做其實也不重要，就想太多，也不用管臺灣人民到底有沒有安全想像？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這一定基於主客觀跟雙方面覺得最適當的時間跟地點，因為最近太平洋3個國家他們就一直邀請我們要去，而且他們都在今年初，就是馬紹爾群島跟……"],["羅委員智強：受歡迎當然很好，馬總統也有去訪問南太……"],["林部長佳龍：吐瓦魯選出新的總統跟總理……"],["羅委員智強：蔡總統也有……"],["林部長佳龍：帛琉又是總統連任……"],["羅委員智強：對、對、對、對。"],["林部長佳龍：所以這個時間我們認為3個國家排在一起最好。"],["羅委員智強：我還是跟部長講，因為真的不是互斥，當然賴總統累一點點跑個兩趟maybe OK，但是真的不是互斥，如果你今天學馬總統或是陳總統或是蔡總統，8月就去訪問巴拉圭，過境美國，那你現在一樣可以訪問南太呀，所以我才講不是互斥，這個我必須說……"],["林部長佳龍：有時候我們訪問也會考慮到他們的……比如就職或什麼樣特殊的慶典。"],["羅委員智強：我知道啦，當然會有，但是說實在話，真的有心要訪問，你一定會找出一個方式安排，這個當然是外交部要努力的地方，因為不要輕忽所謂的安全想像，說實在話，我自己就會非常擔心，因為我擔心的是什麼？我擔心是，比方舉個例子，有人就說其實不要在乎這些東西、這些東西也不重要，那我告訴你，不重要就更重要!為什麼？如果這麼不重要的事情就能夠換得人民的安全想像，就這一點如果外交部都做不到，那我就對外交部的能力會打折扣；還是說今天美國不讓你做得到，那就抱歉，那就會不能怪人家覺得美國有疑賴論，所以這件事情不要以為它是表面上的象徵性，它實際上攸關某些部分，我們講的安全想像。拜託部長，當然過去就過去了，後面趕快安排好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會有序的安排。"],["羅委員智強：好。"],["林部長佳龍：因為立法院也有編列預算嘛！"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["林部長佳龍：就像我們今年也有預訂，出訪上是在年底壓軸，雖然是先到南太，但我們有綜合的規劃，後續的出訪會依據委員提醒的重點。"],["羅委員智強：好，那部長再加油一下，謝謝你。"],["林部長佳龍：好，一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員，部長請回。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在場。","接下來我們請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157644","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157644","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579660d3e9d351031bdd4fde9c36da10785a7100fefa9c0a589fca913c6d79a6ea1625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:45:18 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有請部長有請部長"},{"start":12.725,"end":37.623,"text":"部長好部長好部長外交部明年度的預算基密預算18億近6年來新高我想各個媒體都在報導當然外交部有自己的說法但所有的委員都非常的關注有幾個問題想跟您來做一個探討我想台灣處在一個特殊的國際政治的環境裡在這一層環境裡面最大的因素我們看到台灣與世界其他國家所簽的經貿協議比較少加上全球這個經貿協議RCEP"},{"start":39.284,"end":67.327,"text":"台灣沒有加入因此更顯得CPTPP特別的重要部長台灣為了加入CPTPP已經準備了很久我們都覺得我們準備好了從TPP時候開始準備今天聯合報報導CPTPP大會擱置台灣入會的申請案尤其我們在這一次的是採集體公視決新加坡、越南、馬來西亞目前看起來並沒有支持台灣加入新南向政策的推動不敵政治現實請問部長怎麼看"},{"start":69.16,"end":69.18,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":86.73,"end":112.361,"text":"就是說現在的會員國11加1那個1就是英國那目前我們有協商就所謂的這個部分我們協商到的對象基本上都是樂觀啟程樂觀啟程所以我想問一下因為這個程序會有一些你也知道說因為國際政治經濟的因素所以到底是怎麼樣推進那因為加拿大他有用了一個就是因為要成立工作小組才進入下一個階段實質協商可是他現在可以開放"},{"start":113.921,"end":135.332,"text":"工作小舉之前就可以雙邊協商。好那所以據報載我們還是要講一下CPTT執委裡面有一個另一個國家的高級官員表示台灣未獲得共識有一些成員國仍然需要努力的被說服請問部長我現在就想問你剛剛有說並沒有不被支持有人願意樂觀啟程有沒有可以舉例一下哪些支持哪些不支持的"},{"start":135.572,"end":161.439,"text":"因為這種pre-consultation就是說因為算是說CPTPP的輪值主席國在加拿大的主導之下有通過一個決定就是有關於成立工作會議之前也可以進行雙邊諮商所以我們從今年開始就展開跟一些國家雙邊的所謂的前期的諮商那目前的諮商有將近一半就11個國家裡面有一半那都是很正面那秘魯有嗎沒有在裡面"},{"start":162.259,"end":185.093,"text":"因為這個有一些他是可以不表反對那我跟委員說明就本來說好像共識決是要大家都vote YES不是現在是你不贊成的人你要去說理由為什麼不贊成那這個我覺得是開了一個一扇門啦算是一扇門給我們只要不反對就算是同意就對了啦因為台灣跟美國都簽訂21世紀貿易這個倡議其實我們是高標準那如果這一次我們沒辦法入會我們有沒有什麼備案"},{"start":186.013,"end":206.395,"text":"我們就繼續溝通努力因為他這個是有點是說我們去報名然後他在我們受見然後受見之後開始成立工作小組然後進行實質的審查你就要展開很多的諮商我想到我現在也實質可以諮商但是成立工作小組大家也了解因為中國也申請要加入可是這個都是屬於我要去掛號可是還沒有受理"},{"start":208.217,"end":214.04,"text":"我必須要表達國人的期待還有國民的期許我們希望這個部分一定要有這個機會能夠進入那也希望能夠加把勁另外我想請問一下你個人對於臺灣人對於這個國際觀的一個程度可不可以1到10分你給幾分國際觀臺灣人臺灣人是蠻有趣的一方面很國際化一方面好像我們的新聞又比較國內化"},{"start":235.413,"end":236.774,"text":"你有聽過一眼看天下中華民國外交部國際新聞獨報站嗎?"},{"start":260.868,"end":279.591,"text":"你有看過這個嗎?節目嗎?它是一個節目,對。我現在大概只有看我的手機。好,沒關係,很忙了。但我要跟你講,它已經被外交部廢掉了。當然不是在您任內,所以沒有聽過也很正常。這個網站的前身,它是一個網站帶到相關的一些媒體報導。"},{"start":280.852,"end":309.06,"text":"臺灣Plus是公視現在我們在講的是這個網站所帶到的新聞媒體的報章雜誌這是由時任新聞局局長楊永明先生2012年所成立的當時網站是設立在新聞局新聞來源主要是利用當時54個駐外單位每天收報上百則的國際媒體有關臺灣及重要的國際議題報導、評論、資源而來後來新聞局裁撤以後改由外交部來做接手"},{"start":309.86,"end":338.612,"text":"到吳釗燮單人部外交部部長的時候最後幾年把他給裁撤掉因此我們認為國人好像忽略了這個區塊的一個資訊收集當然坊間他也會說坊間有很多的一些國際新聞的來源所以這個不一定需要可是我想跟部長探討的一個問題國際新聞的閱讀越來越受國人重視而且就像你說的我們注重在國內的新聞是不是國外的也需要再加強我想現在國內確實有文獻小妹大"},{"start":339.612,"end":354.473,"text":"明迪選獨轉角國際南洋志等東南亞的週報等等都有在做國際新聞但光這些真的不夠我想我們因此比較關注的其實國際最夯的時事新聞分析而已那其他如果想了解中南美洲呢"},{"start":355.219,"end":372.369,"text":"好這樣的新聞甚至是非洲呢要去哪裡看特別是中南美洲台灣邦交國最多的地方國人想要去了解自己邦交國的一個新聞來源其實並不多所以在過去外交部的國際新聞獨報站做得很好上面有分兩岸"},{"start":373.109,"end":392.345,"text":"有分亞洲、美加、中南美洲、歐洲新聞、非洲新聞每天每一個區塊都會最少更新大概三折左右的一個新聞我想為什麼要裁撤掉是不是有這個機會恢復甚至有這個機會有這個國際新聞的APP外交部長您有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":393.96,"end":420.782,"text":"為了了解一下因為委員的提醒那當時怎麼設立怎麼後來停掉那現在因為台灣Plus到底怎麼樣這之間的關係那我們有國際傳播師就從行政新聞局過來做非常多國際輿情的收集那這方面因為現在匯流了我想確實是影音圖文各種資料的呈現讓國人能夠更了解國際的資訊"},{"start":422.183,"end":440.639,"text":"但是是不是由我們外交部還是透過既有現代的平台或怎麼樣因為現在的科技尤其是數位科技的情況又跟以前我想不管是串流或者是台灣Plus台灣Plus現在在我們教育文化委員會也是在討論當中裡面的內容備受爭議那我們先不在這裡談但我要講的是"},{"start":441.3,"end":464.68,"text":"都是在做國際最夯的時事新聞分析那我還是回到中南美洲非洲這一類的新聞真的是非常少尤其中南美洲邦交國這麼多我們也想了解邦交國他們內部的政治因素有沒有什麼的變化有沒有邦交國砸這麼多錢在他們那邊我們有沒有獲得那些他們的資訊了解一下我們跟邦交國到底處的朋友是什麼樣子"},{"start":465.741,"end":479.982,"text":"這個部分其實外交部是不是能夠給予更多一點的建議不管是在未來台灣PLUS或者是你們有機會串流合作不一定要你們主政但是我要講的是中南美洲邦交國還有非洲這一類的新聞我覺得值得大家國際來做一個閱讀"},{"start":480.863,"end":500.168,"text":"我同意委員的提醒,因為包括我們國和會做很多事情,跟我們的幫交過,可是國人也不太知道。其實像我們比如說貝里斯有貝洋計畫,義後的話對他們婦女賦權,這個效果就很好,然後對青年的創業還有非常多的這些技術團,"},{"start":501.528,"end":502.449,"text":"謝謝部長,很高興您看到問題,有點出問題。"},{"start":526.367,"end":549.127,"text":"國內的一個關注我們也希望能夠有機會讓大家國內的一些國人能夠更關注到國際新聞那另外我想跟你請問一下臺凡的外交是否會有一些生變我想大陸搶奪邦交國的一個企圖從未停歇那邦交國到底穩不穩定我們最知道我現在想請問一下梵蒂岡與大陸現在在主教任命的臨時協議第三度的一個續約對臺灣關係會不會有衝擊現階段不會"},{"start":552.93,"end":576.51,"text":"什麼時候有沒有掌握後續會不會外交部相關的情質掌握如何對這個臺凡關係我是很注意因為今年這個因為有關於凡中主教任命臨時性協議簽了而且是一次簽4年對那這一位我們目前的這個教宗他也是對發展跟北京的關係很重視很重視我們看到他很重視加中文所以我們很擔憂"},{"start":579.953,"end":593.162,"text":"對,但是呢因為基本上我們對於宗教自由還有這些人權的保障我想因為還是他們之間還是有一些除了說地下教會跟愛國教會的問題之外還是有涉及到對宗教人權的問題那這個部分"},{"start":595.683,"end":609.791,"text":"包括中共也是無神論那他本身打壓像一些宗教所以這個還是有一個而且我們台灣的天主教徒也是相當多所以我應該說這樣跟委員講說我們這一年來是很密切關注因為我們也很關心說在簽這個協議的時候會不會"},{"start":612.432,"end":614.172,"text":"我相信大家都知道沒有永遠的朋友沒有永遠的敵人只有永遠的利益這就是國際政治"},{"start":635.077,"end":663.619,"text":"那所以在這個部分上我想教廷與大陸之間主要的歧義我就是剛剛你說的就是無神論也就是宗教的一個問題讓他們有一些歧見喔但是只要宗教問題解決了外交關係他們可能就會有一些進一步的談判所以我希望喔部長我們一起慎重的看待中凡三度的一個續簽喔主教任命的一個臨時簽譯他到底後續會帶來什麼樣的一個政治因素問題這個部分我必須本期在這邊的提醒你好我們一起來關注這個問題"},{"start":664.561,"end":666.113,"text":"好,我們會加強這方面的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時45分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，外交部明年度的機密預算18億是近六年來新高，媒體都在報導，當然外交部有自己的說法，但所有的委員都非常關注。本席有幾個問題，想跟您一起探討。","臺灣處在一個特殊的國際政治環境裡，在這一層環境裡面的最大因素，我們看到臺灣與世界其他國家所簽的經貿協議比較少，加上臺灣沒有加入全球經貿協議RCEP，就更顯得CPTPP特別的重要。臺灣為了加入CPTPP已經準備了很久，從TPP的時候就開始準備，所以我們都覺得我們準備好了。今天聯合報報導CPTPP大會擱置臺灣入會的申請案，尤其這一次是採集體共識決，新加坡、越南、馬來西亞目前看起來並沒有支持臺灣加入，新南向政策的推動，不敵政治現實，請問部長怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，其實這個報導是有出入的，因為大會現在還在開；另外，我們是去報名要成立工作小組，目前我的了解是沒有一個國家反對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["林部長佳龍：可是要成立工作小組，需要現在的會員國11加1，那個1就是英國，目前我們有協商，即所謂的pre-consultation這個部分，我們協商到的對象，基本上都是樂觀其成；但是你也知道因為國際政治經濟的因素，這個程序到底是怎麼樣推進，因為加拿大提了一個要先成立工作小組，才進入下一個階段實質協商，可是他現在開放在工作小組之前就可以雙邊協商。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我們還是要講一下。據報載，CPTPP執委裡面有另一個國家的高級官員表示，臺灣未獲得共識，有一些成員國仍然需要努力地被說服。我現在就想問部長，你剛剛說並沒有不被支持，有人願意樂觀其成，可不可以舉例哪些國家支持，哪些國家不支持？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這種pre-consultation算是在CPTPP輪值主席國加拿大的主導下通過的一個決定，就是在成立工作會議之前，也可以進行雙邊諮商。所以我們從今年開始跟一些國家展開所謂的雙邊前期諮商，目前的諮商已將近一半，11個國裡面有一半都是很正面的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有秘魯嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有在裡面，因為有一些他是可以不表反對。我跟委員說明，本來共識決是大家都vote yes，不是，現在是你不贊成，你要去說理由，為什麼不贊成。我覺得這個算是開了一扇門……"],["羅委員廷瑋：算是開了一扇門給我們，只要不反對，就算同意就對了……"],["林部長佳龍：但這只是程序上而已，因為臺灣跟美國都簽訂21世紀貿易這個倡議，其實我們是高標準。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果這一次我們沒辦法入會，我們有沒有什麼備案？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就繼續溝通、努力，因為這個有點類似我們去報名，然後它有沒有受件；受件之後開始成立工作小組，然後進行實質的審查，就要展開很多的諮商。我們現在也實質可以諮商，但是大家也了解，因為中國也申請要加入，所以這個都屬於我要去掛號，可是還沒有受理，受理完之後就要展開工作小組，進行程序審查。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我必須要表達國人的期待。"],["林部長佳龍：我們會很努力，這個很重要。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們希望這部分一定要有這個機會能夠進入，也希望能夠加把勁。","另外，我想請問部長，你個人認為臺灣人對於國際觀的程度，如果是一到十分，你給幾分？"],["林部長佳龍：國際觀？臺灣人？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，對。"],["林部長佳龍：臺灣人是滿有趣的，一方面很國際化，一方面我們的新聞好像又比較國內化。因為臺灣人留學、出國旅遊，來往做生意的好多，所以臺灣人很容易就跟全世界來往；可是在我們生活上的重點，尤其是政治……"],["羅委員廷瑋：都在國內。"],["林部長佳龍：都在國內。我們也很期待怎麼讓臺灣成為世界的臺灣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長有聽過「一眼看天下─中華民國外交部國際新聞讀報站」嗎？你有看過這個嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是節目嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：它是一個節目。"],["林部長佳龍：我現在大概只有看我的手機。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，很忙，沒關係！但我要跟你講，它已經被外交部廢掉了，當然不是在你任內，所以沒有聽過也很正常。它是一個網站帶到相關的一些媒體報導，我想是……"],["林部長佳龍：現在是有TaiwanPlus。"],["羅委員廷瑋：TaiwanPlusT是公視，我們現在講的是這個網站所帶到的新聞媒體、報章雜誌，那是由時任新聞局局長楊永明先生於2012年所成立的。當時網站是設立在新聞局，新聞來源主要是利用當時54個駐外單位，每天收到上百則的國際媒體有關臺灣及重要的國際議題報導、評論資源而來的，新聞局裁撤以後，改由外交部接手，直到吳釗燮擔任部外交部部長的時候，最後幾年把它給裁撤掉。因此我們認為，國人好像忽略了這個區塊的資訊蒐集，當然他也會說坊間有很多的國際新聞來源，所以這個不一定需要。可是我想跟部長探討一個問題，國際新聞的閱讀越來越受國人重視，而且就像你說的，我們注重在國內的新聞，是不是國外的也需要再加強？我想國內現在確實有文茜小妹大、敏迪選讀、轉角國際、南洋志、東南亞週報等等，都在做國際新聞，但光這些真的不夠。我想我們比較關注的其實是國際最夯的時事新聞分析而已，如果我們想了解中南美洲這樣的新聞，甚至是非洲，要去哪裡看？特別是中南美洲，也是臺灣邦交國最多的地方，國人想要了解自己邦交國的新聞，其實來源並不多。過去外交部的國際新聞讀報站做得很好，裡面有分兩岸，有分亞洲、美加、中南美洲、歐洲新聞、非洲新聞，每天每一個區塊至少都會更新大概三則左右的新聞。我們為什麼要裁撤掉？是不是有機會恢復，甚至有機會可以有這個國際新聞的app？外交部長您有沒有什麼規劃？"],["林部長佳龍：因為委員的提醒，我來了解一下，當時怎麼設立，後來怎麼停掉；現在又有TaiwanPlus，這之間的關係到底怎麼樣？我們的國際傳播司是從行政院新聞局過來的，做了非常多國際輿情的蒐集，因為現在匯流了，我想影音、圖文各種資料的呈現，可以讓國人更了解國際的資訊。但是不是由我們外交部，還是透過現在既有的平臺或是怎麼樣，因為現在的科技，尤其是數位科技的情況，又跟以前不太一樣……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想不管是串流或者是TaiwanPlus，我們教育及文化委員會也正在討論TaiwanPlus，裡面的內容備受爭議，我們先不在這裡談；我要講的是，都是在做國際最夯的時事新聞分析，我們回到中南美洲、非洲，這一類的新聞真的非常少，尤其中南美洲邦交國這麼多，我們也想了解邦交國他們內部的政治因素有沒有什麼變化？砸了這麼多錢在邦交國那邊，我們有沒有獲得他們的資訊？了解一下我們跟邦交國相處，這個朋友到底是什麼樣子？外交部在這個部分是不是能夠給予更多一點的建議，不管是未來在TaiwanPlus或者是你們有機會串流合作，不一定要你們主政，但我要講的是中南美洲邦交國還有非洲，這一類的國際新聞，都值得大家來閱讀。"],["林部長佳龍：這個部分我很同意委員的這個提醒，因為包括國合會跟我們的邦交國做很多事情，可是國人也都不太知道，比如貝里斯的貝羊計畫，還有疫後的婦女賦權，這個效果就很好；然後對青年的創業，還有非常多的技術團，我覺得都沒有好好去把跟當地國合作，把當地不管是政經輿情或是一些新聞做出來。在跟國合會開會的時候，我就覺得我們應該透過國合會的管道，因為我們在這十二個邦交國都有駐點，事實上也可以幫忙我們來做，我們也許可以有一個合作計畫跟TaiwanPlus。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝部長，很高興你看到問題，也點出問題。我想這是國內的一個關注，我們希望有機會讓國人能夠更關注到國際新聞。另外，我想請問一下，臺梵的外交是否會生變？大陸搶奪邦交國的企圖從未停歇，邦交國到底穩不穩定，我們最知道！請問，梵蒂岡與大陸現在主教任命臨時協議第三度的續約，對臺梵關係會不會有衝擊？現階段不會，後續會不會？什麼時候？有沒有掌握？外交部相關的情資掌握如何？"],["林部長佳龍：我對臺梵關係很注意，因為今年梵中主教任命臨時性協議簽了，而且一次簽四年。目前這位教宗對發展跟北京的關係很重視，甚至最近連翻譯都加中文。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們很擔憂。"],["林部長佳龍：但基本上我們對於宗教自由還有這些人權的保障，我想他們之間除了地下教會跟愛國教會的問題外，還是有涉及到對宗教人權的問題，包括中共也是無神論，他本身也打壓像一些宗教……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道。"],["林部長佳龍：而且在臺灣的天主教徒也是相當多，所以我應該這樣跟委員講，我們這一年來也在密切關注，因為我們也很關心在簽訂這個協議的時候，會不會有外交上的變化；目前看起來並沒有外交上關係的變化。不過，中梵關係有一點進展，當然會影響到臺灣，我們也密切注意跟因應中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想大家都知道，沒有永遠的朋友，沒有永遠的敵人，只有永遠的利益，這就是國際政治！教廷與大陸之間主要的歧異，就是你剛剛說的無神論，也是宗教的一個問題，讓他們有一些歧見；但只要宗教問題解決，外交關係的部分，他們可能就會有進一步的談判。請部長我們一起慎重看待中梵三度續簽主教任命的臨時協議，到底後續會帶來什麼樣的政治因素問題，本席必須在這邊提醒你，我們一起來關注這個問題。謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：我們會加強這方面。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，部長請回。","接下來請羅智強委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579664757cee376486ef8768d6645aa784673100fefa9c0a589fc30a324e446e41dda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:33:58 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蓋章"},{"start":240.495,"end":262.465,"text":"其實原則上我們在進行內部審核的時候是要就整個所以主計處的頭人他是主計一條邊其實他就應該扮演在機關裡面說實話的那個人他應該說清楚這個不宜、不可以我在臺北市的時候我們的主計長常常就是在做剎車皮"},{"start":263.866,"end":291.801,"text":"所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的審計要去做專案審查你的主計也要通令全國的主計同仁發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行可能都要先舉手甚至要提告甚至要報出來不要等到什麼民眾爆料我們現在就是靠爆料在過日子啊好嗎?主計長所以人事總處的副人事長"},{"start":293.324,"end":318.223,"text":"剛講的現在你應該建立一個機制怎麼樣把霸凌成為人事總處去列管各機關相關執行公務當公務員的保護神不能只是不是不能只是宣導你就只是宣導然後最後是行政院長出來講我覺得這樣人事總處很失職好嗎好 謝謝好 接下來我想副人事長可以請回然後我請審計長審計長知道我們之前"},{"start":323.263,"end":327.371,"text":"財政部發生了一件事情就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的獎"},{"start":328.993,"end":355.04,"text":"抽獎然後有四個人在三波抽獎重大獎然後造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損你有注意到這件事嗎?有這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計啊?這個我們會了解這個我相信啦公務員也不會因為區區的獎品故意拿他的指牙開玩笑但是他的機制的確出了問題現在的問題就在於主計長我這邊也要請教齁"},{"start":358.202,"end":373.159,"text":"全臺灣我們都在推所謂的電子發票財政部這麼認真、努力、用力的推電子發票還鬧出了這個大烏龍電子發票在臺灣所有的國人到113年9月使用、載具、儲存的已經高達58%,將近六成"},{"start":376.102,"end":390.857,"text":"臺北市的市民更高達7成也就是使用雲端發票的載具的民眾已經非常多了那推廣電子發票也是重要的國策那現在重點是要結合電子帳務包括商家包括政府"},{"start":391.758,"end":407.018,"text":"稅務申報、經費支持而且最重要是它不會被偽造現在的問題就在於你有關政府部門使用電子發票或者是要求電子核銷的比例在我看來還是太慢了主計長你自己認為勒?"},{"start":408.123,"end":423.547,"text":"因為我要跟委員報告就是使用電子發票這一個部分的業務是財政部是在推動那我們是負責整個結報系統可是你是負責結算嘛報帳嘛報帳的部分這個在財政中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%"},{"start":429.048,"end":449.939,"text":"也就是說由政府來帶頭要求廠商或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購這個已經成為政府帶動所謂電子發票使用的很重要的里程碑99%你其他的機關現在做到多少?中央政府的機關有沒有在推?有沒有比例?有沒有KPI?"},{"start":451.107,"end":469.38,"text":"目前我們是達到26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離所以我們也是在努力一個政府不能夠有三套事情財政部拼命在推可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購的條件你知道我們"},{"start":471.121,"end":499.586,"text":"我們的考察主計總處你們在105年考察新加坡的時候人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部電子發票了這個是你們考察自己的報告寫的啊所以主計長明信院主計長這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一啊第二個主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告說這個是未來數位化政府的趨勢請問你要不要定出一個具體的方向"},{"start":501.027,"end":529.559,"text":"因為本身主要是搭配財政部的電子發票主計處要有自己的立場你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話財政部會輕鬆很多如果我們今天相關的機關出去買東西希望它有電子發票很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來我們要的是以公代私公部門開始引領我相信很多的商家臺北市為什麼能夠推廣"},{"start":530.359,"end":550.232,"text":"因為後來很多的商家都主動說我要申請電子發票因為這樣子我可以做到公部門的相關賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話他就比較容易被選到這是以公代私我是今天希望主計長你訂出一個未來的目標多久達到50%多久達到80%多久達到90%"},{"start":555.535,"end":580.926,"text":"所以我們這個部分我們進來再研究說看是要怎樣不要再研究了啦這個是政府的政策啦好不好你訂出一個相關的時程表至少要努力達到50%中央政府到現在為止沒有都加入第二個你做了一個平台也很少目前使用狀況也不好第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI你如果頒個獎喔就會很多人往上走啦"},{"start":581.486,"end":603.558,"text":"主計處最喜歡頒獎嘛對不對頒獎之後地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取所以其實是你們要不要定出這個方向數位化政府不是說假的數位化政府要自己先做起如果數位化政府是我們賴總統或卓院長的重要政策我希望主計長在這個月底我希望有個初步的未來"},{"start":604.218,"end":633.217,"text":"一年、兩年、三年,你的目標值,然後給地方政府訂出相關的獎勵方案,好嗎?一個月之內給我個答案好嗎?不能沒有方向啦!如果臺北市可以做到99%,我相信六都一定做得到只是時程,我們不要給公務員太大的壓力但是,要往這個方向走,不要讓財政部一個人在做啦!他拼命在做頒獎,在做抽獎,公部門沒有人理他"},{"start":634.678,"end":655.375,"text":"公佈門的發票還是一樣用原始的方法每天在那邊貼來貼去那個很容易出錯嘛而且可能做假嘛所以電子發票是一個很好的方法數位國家不要說空話好嗎來審計部我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面其實你們會不會比較輕鬆嘛"},{"start":657.441,"end":680.748,"text":"如果有電子發票系統的話對會很輕鬆很多吧對 謝謝不用一個一個查核嘛不用看年天每一張單據嘛好不好好我想這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷使用電子發票的未來的計畫時程表跟你要達到的KPI然後跟地方政府好好的溝通好嗎好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1266,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時34分）謝謝主席，我想請主計長、人事總處，還有審計長。"],["主席：主計長、審計長，還有人事總處副人事長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：三位好，我想剛剛大家都在問，勞動部勞動發展署前署長做的這些所謂的霸凌，還有可能不符合預算程序的這些行為，我想問一下，霸凌的主管機關是人事總處嗎？公務人員有關霸凌的處理，應該由人事總處來管理嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：委員，人事總處是為了希望各機關建立友善的環境，所以有訂一個指引。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你是主管機關嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有訂一個指引。"],["黃委員珊珊：有訂一個指引，但是沒有強制力是嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：所以要求各機關能夠按指引來做。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以現在你有沒有辦法掌握，全臺灣公務機關霸凌的案件有多少？還是要等到行政院長說七天之內要處理你才會知道？有人在列管嗎？有人在關心嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：我們最近有去調查和統計。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以平常沒有人管理？人事總處平常有沒有管理這方面的案件？"],["李副人事長秉洲：我們會在各個適當場合，先跟我們的人事機構宣導要去做這個。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以結論就是沒在管啦！你只有宣導而已。我現在就講，因為院長說的話，現在所有立法委員都接到很多霸凌的投訴。我這邊就有一個警政署所屬單位的投訴，他是正式提出申訴，而且正式開過調查委員會，但是機關裡面很清楚，我們有個規定是得請專家學者，這個機關全部的調查委員都是內部人，完全沒有任何外部人員。所以類似的案件，人事總處只能訂指引，但是你沒有做列管，也沒有做改革對嗎？你都不知道，因為你完全沒有統計資料嘛！"],["李副人事長秉洲：對，因為是各機關的管理措施。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天我就是希望人事總處應該扛起這個責任，至少要做列管，至少要去追蹤，至少要去考核，而不是等到院長在行政院會講話，這樣子很丟臉，好嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：對，現在我們有在做統計，然後之後我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：統計、管理、考核，最重要是追蹤。審計長，除了勞動部的事情之外，其實全國的霸凌案件，你們雖然是審計單位，你認為有沒有必要針對這個部分，包括剛剛講的這些預算濫行使用，進行專案的審計，包括霸凌案件？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會照委員的意思來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：這應該要做專案的審計。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他有這樣的狀況，那可能不單單只有勞動部、勞動分署，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會做專案審計。"],["黃委員珊珊：專案審計包括，如果今天院長這邊要求所有的霸凌單位，可能裡面都有類似的狀態，所以你都要去調查。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來是主計長，剛剛說主計處是政府的管家婆，審計部是政府的防腐劑，人事總處其實是公務員的守護神。你們這三個單位要確保這個政府是公平的，同仁在裡面工作是受到保護的，最重要的是，不要讓任何人可以上下其手，而不經過所有的制度，這是三位很重要的責任。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，剛剛講的，如果審計部是管後面，那你就是前面，剛剛很多委員說，前面的主計人員，在相關預算的使用上，我們應該付出什麼樣的責任，還是就閉著眼睛蓋章？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實原則上，我們在進行內部審核的時候，是要就整個……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以主計處的同仁是一條鞭。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實主計應該扮演在機關裡說實話的那個人，應該說清楚，這個不宜、不可以，我在臺北市的時候，我們的主計長常常就是在做煞車皮。所以我希望主計處除了剛剛講的，審計要去做專案審查，主計也要通令全國的主計同仁，發現類似這樣不合邏輯的預算執行，可能都要先舉手，甚至要提告，要報出來，不要等到什麼民眾爆料，我們現在都靠爆料在過日子啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們這個會加強。"],["黃委員珊珊：人事總處的副人事長，現在你應該建立一個機制，如何將霸凌成為人事總處列管各機關相關執行公務，當公務員的保護神，不能只是宣導。你就只是宣導，然後最後是行政院長出來講，我覺得這樣人事總處很失職。"],["李副人事長秉洲：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來副人事長可以請回，我想請教審計長，審計長知道之前財政部發生了一件事情，就是我們弄了一個雲端電子發票的抽獎，然後有四個人在三波抽獎中大獎，造成大家認為財政部的公信力受損，你有注意到這件事嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個案子審計部要不要也去做一個專案審計？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們會了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：我相信公務員也不會因為區區的獎品，故意拿他的職涯開玩笑，但是它的機制的確出了問題，現在的問題就在於……主計長，我在這邊也要請教全臺灣都在推所謂的電子發票，財政部這麼認真努力、用力的推電子發票，還鬧出了這個大烏龍。電子發票在臺灣所有國人到113年9月使用載具儲存已經高達58%，將近六成，臺北市的市民更高達七成，也就是使用雲端發票載具的民眾已經非常多了，推廣電子發票也是重要的國策，現在的重點是要結合電子帳務，包括商家、包括政府、稅務申報、經費支持，而且最重要的是它不會被偽造，現在的問題就在於政府部門使用電子發票，或者是要求電子核銷的比例，在我看來還是太慢了。主計長，你自己認為呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，使用電子發票這個部分的業務是由財政部在推動，我們是負責整個結報系統……"],["黃委員珊珊：你是負責結算、報帳……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，報帳的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：財資中心在105年就已經拜訪過臺北市，臺北市在109年電子核銷的比例已經高達99%，也就是說，由政府帶頭來要求廠商，或者是跟有電子發票的廠商做相關的採購，這已經成為政府帶動電子發票使用很重要的里程碑，臺北市有99%，其他機關現在做到多少？中央政府機關有沒有在推？有沒有比例？有沒有KPI？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前我們是達到26%。"],["黃委員珊珊：26%到99%還有很遠很遠的距離啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以我們也在努力，這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：一個政府不能有三套事情，財政部拚命在推，可是我們政府部門沒有把這個當成重要的採購條件。主計總處在105年考察新加坡，人家新加坡不知道民國幾年前就已經是全部用電子發票了！這是你們自己的考察報告寫的。您新任主計長，這個要不要成為你重要的政策推廣之一？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，主計總處在今年5月29號到財委會業務報告時，說這是未來數位化政府的趨勢，請問你要不要訂出一個具體的方向？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們主要是搭配財政部的電子化發票的一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：主計處要有自己的立場，你全部的核銷都要求電子發票的話，財政部會輕鬆很多啊！如果今天相關的機關出去買東西希望他有電子發票，很多的商家會慢慢轉型過來，我們要的是以公帶私，從公部門開始引領，我相信很多商家都會跟進。臺北市為什麼能夠推廣？因為後來很多的商家都主動說他們要申請電子發票，因為這樣子可以做到公部門相關的……賣個便當也可以有電子發票的話，它就比較容易被選到，這就是以公帶私。我希望主計長能夠訂出一個未來的目標，看看多久達到50%、多久達到80%、多久達到90%。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們近來再研究看看是要怎樣……"],["黃委員珊珊：不要再研究了，這個是政府的政策啦！你訂出一個相關的時程表，至少要努力達到50%，中央政府到現在為止並沒有都加入。第二個，雖然你們做了一個平臺，但是目前使用狀況也不好。第三個就是大家沒有把這個當成一個KPI，你如果頒一個獎，就會有很多人往上走啦！主計處最喜歡頒獎，對不對？頒獎之後，地方政府就會跟著跑過來爭取，所以關鍵在於你們要不要訂出這個方向，數位化政府不是說假的，數位化政府要從自己先做起，如果數位化政府是賴總統或卓院長的重要政策，主計長，在這個月底我希望有個初步的規劃，訂出未來一年、兩年、三年的目標值，然後給地方政府訂出相關的獎勵方案，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：一個月之內給我一個答案，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能沒有方向啦！如果臺北市可以做到99%，我相信六都一定做得到，只是時程方面我們不要給公務員太大的壓力，但是要往這個方向走，不要讓財政部一個人在做啦！它拚命在做頒獎、在做抽獎，公部門沒有人理它，公部門的發票還是一樣用原來的原始方法，每天都在那邊貼來貼去，那個很容易出錯，而且也可能作假嘛！所以電子發票是一個很好的方法，數位國家不要說空話，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：審計部，我也希望你把電子核銷成為你們在審計上面……其實你們會不會比較輕鬆？如果有電子發票系統的話，會輕鬆很多吧！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：不用一個個查核，不用黏貼每一張單據嘛！好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分就請兩位訂出臺灣數位化政府有關電子核銷、使用電子發票未來的計畫時程表，以及你要達到的KPI，然後跟地方政府好好的溝通，好嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員，主計跟審計記得要在一個月內提出這樣的計畫給黃珊珊委員。","鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","主席在這裡宣告：今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢。現在進行討論事項及臨時提案的處理，請議事人員宣讀今日審查預算案的審查項目，預算提案共84案，預計宣讀的時間是20分鐘，宣讀完畢預計是13時15分，屆時我們要進行協商，沒有相關提案的列席機關代表都可以先行離開，但是行政院、財政部、人事總處要預留一位同仁在現場可以諮詢協商，其他同仁可以在現場用餐。","現在請議事人員宣讀。","一、預算數：","114年度中央政府總預算案","行政院主計總處歲入部分","第2款　罰款及賠償收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第9頁）","第6項　主計總處無列數","第1目　罰金罰鍰及怠金無列數","第2目　沒入及沒收財物無列數","第3目　賠償收入無列數","第3款　規費收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第75頁）","第5項　主計總處9萬7千元","第1目　使用規費收入9萬7千元","第4款　財產收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第140頁）","第7項　主計總處39萬6千元","第1目　財產孳息26萬6千元","第2目　廢舊物資售價13萬元","第7款　其他收入　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱總預算書歲入部分第208頁）","第7項　主計總處89萬5千元","第1目　雜項收入89萬5千元","行政院主計總處歲出部分","第2款　行政院主管","第2項　主計總處14億6,643萬1千元","　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　（請參閱單位預算書歲出部分第25至第29頁）","第1目　一般行政9億4,174萬3千元","第2目　中央總預算核編及執行531萬4千元","第3目　特種基金預算核編及執行266萬1千元","第4目　會計及決算業務420萬2千元","第5目　綜合統計業務3,022萬8千元","第6目　國勢普查業務1億2,206萬3千元","第7目　主計訓練業務1,798萬5千元","第8目　主計資訊業務1億4,778萬5千元","第9目　一般建築及設備1億9,260萬元","第10目　第一預備金185萬元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有請部長有請部長部長好喂好剛才有提到賴總統即將要出訪我們太平洋的三個友邦請問部長您會去嗎會原民會主委會去嗎會"},{"start":27.827,"end":54.328,"text":"那這樣很好很符合我的期待因為我覺得我們的外交工作即便是這些南島語族國家我都希望我們的主體客體都是同等重要的一起來努力那我今天其實想要跟您提一下就是我上次有幾個訴求不過我還是說一下因為以這次我們要去的國家帛琉來講"},{"start":55.749,"end":78.474,"text":"他在202121年這個惠樹仁總統上任之後來到我們臺灣他有講了一句話讓人非常的感動他直接說帛琉的根在臺灣而且這個關係會一直延續下去非常令人感動那前幾個月呢因為有一個太平洋藝術節"},{"start":80.154,"end":90.308,"text":"其中在大會當中主持人說的那段話也被製作成影音到處去傳我有看到對他講得很感動他說台灣是我們的母親所以"},{"start":95.535,"end":115.425,"text":"其實不論是整個我們的南島語族分布的這些國家其實他們都有這樣的一個想法但是事實上這個主流學說它其實也是其來有自如果從物種像是構數幾乎所有的南島民族國家它都有構數"},{"start":117.146,"end":142.435,"text":"這個就是因為帶去的種子那因為夠數它是全利用可以把我們整個做衣服也好食物也好藥品也好它其實是一個全利用的那如果說從我們的語言那更是證據很多因為我們在五官數字或者是像船我們有很多的同源詞證明我們是同一家人"},{"start":142.935,"end":160.054,"text":"好 那我們的人口4億人我現在就是想要請教一下因為這個禮拜在圓明會我們的預算審查我們有一項就是圓明會辦理南島相關的業務例如南島論壇"},{"start":161.636,"end":176.389,"text":"有些委員是很有意見的他們覺得這種外交事務呢應該要由外交部來做所以呢先把它做保留然後後續協商討論請教部長您的看法"},{"start":180.062,"end":207.581,"text":"臺灣是南島語系的發源地這個是很多學術研究包括現在在太平洋國家也都有這樣的一個認識我是覺得臺灣有這個原住民族是我們外交上最寶貴的資產所以在推總和外交我其中就有針對原住民外交希望能夠用一個任務編組來推動無論所大使也有兩位是原住民族的背景"},{"start":208.481,"end":224.053,"text":"這一次到國留去擔任總統的特使我特別推薦由園民會主委現在就是說園民會的業務很多可是他這個有個國際處 能量我們只要來加強"},{"start":224.893,"end":225.053,"text":"主體性的問題"},{"start":243.456,"end":269.346,"text":"我覺得在這個部分我們很清楚知道我們南島外交的推動我們應該還是要尊重原民會原住民的一個主體性這是很重要的那我覺得像當天像以陳寅委員來講他說他去了紐西蘭結果代表處呢想要邀毛利的國會議員怎麼約都約不到但是呢陳寅委員以原住民的身份一天就搞定"},{"start":270.566,"end":296.559,"text":"這樣的例子非常的多因為他們是真的把我們當成是一家人其實他們對華人還是有一些戒慎恐懼所以我覺得這個部分我希望說我們的外交體系大部分可能都是以西方文化來建構缺乏南島文化為主體的關係但是我想部長您在這個位置上我已經看到有很多的改變希望你繼續努力但是我要提醒"},{"start":297.279,"end":312.823,"text":"因為中國正在有意識的滲透要掠奪南島起源的權勢來弱化台灣的主體性我們看到很多的影音抖音被邀請這些年輕人他們已經不再是"},{"start":313.303,"end":329.737,"text":"天然綠喔自然獨喔他們很多的年輕人開始會去那個地方交流就說出這樣的話我們台灣少數民族也是有根的我們的根在福建是從福建東南沿海遷徙到台灣的這樣的言論在年輕人越來越多在這個世代我們也可以看到他們辦的海峽論壇他們有特別一個叫做南島語族文化學術論壇"},{"start":341.366,"end":367.706,"text":"所以這樣的一個意圖讓我們感到很憂心所以我之前我有特別提出我希望外交部要盤點原住民族的外交官也要去做人才的培育那未來這些重點的區域的派駐原住民外交人才的可行性我希望能夠開始去思考那另外剛才您有說邀訪是最好的"},{"start":368.166,"end":381.516,"text":"一種形式所以我之前也有說要辦理例如像南太平洋運動會來串聯我們的南太平洋的友邦那另外呢我也希望這些國際組織重要會議也能夠主動的能夠邀請我們援助民主的這些人才國際人才一同的參與那我記得部長上次我說我下次還會再問喔你有對同仁們講說要記得委員還會再問喔"},{"start":396.708,"end":418.884,"text":"要規劃喔不能就這樣子說了不了了之喔那我不曉得說規劃進度如何有,我們有跟原民會有討論就是他們也來提案那我們來一起就是推動我有請同仁針對總和外交裡面的原住民外交要步與步之間要有一個平台"},{"start":419.704,"end":443.749,"text":"就像我們最近跟環境部針對探權在國際合作同樣跟原住民外交我們的對口就是原民會兩個會一起來推原住民外交所以除了這個活動之外其實我覺得應該全面性的其實就是說其實原住民外交其實可以作為談外交的主流化的一個主題也真的是不只是說太平洋地區你要像這一個加拿大紐澳"},{"start":445.109,"end":466.439,"text":"甚至歐洲的國家其實他們對原住民都當作一個主流一個主題在推動可是我們相對來講外交部這個業務是比較不是這麼主流那原民會呢他業務很多外交好像也不是他好像一個最主要的那我們兩部來合作會我想應該是可以把原住民外交推到一個新的層次"},{"start":468.24,"end":491.285,"text":"部長您剛剛既然有提到說有有有在規劃了齁那有沒有可能一個禮拜之內到辦公室我來瞭解一下進度因為馬上就要出訪齁這次也是我有推薦我特別有提到說原民會主委一定也是要參加那個就是府會包括總統府跟國安會都覺得這很好那就兩週後好不好或者同仁來啊"},{"start":494.622,"end":503.121,"text":"同仁先去拜訪委員,把委員的寶貴意見先納入我們未來進一步的規劃,因為原住民主委我們的……我希望有規劃有進度,可以嗎?好,謝謝部長,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時36分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：剛才有提到，賴總統即將要出訪我們太平洋的三個友邦，那請問部長，您會去嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原民會主委會去嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。那這樣很好，很符合我的期待，因為我覺得我們的外交工作，即便是這些南島語族國家，我都希望我們的主體、客體都是同等重要的，一起來努力。","那我今天其實想要跟您提一下，就是我上次有幾個訴求，不過我還是說一下，因為以這一次我們要去的國家帛琉來講，在2021年惠恕仁總統上任之後，來到我們臺灣，他有講了一句話，讓人非常的感動。他直接說帛琉的根在臺灣，而且這個關係會一直延續下去，非常令人感動。前幾個月有一個太平洋藝術節，在大會當中主持人說的那段話，也被製作成影音，到處去傳。"],["林部長佳龍：我有看到。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長，您的回答讓我們很感動，但我還是要提，這是主體性的問題。在這個部分，我們很清楚知道南島外交的推動，我們還是應該要尊重原住民的主體性，這很重要。就像當天陳瑩委員說他去紐西蘭，代表處想邀毛利的國會議員，怎麼約都約不到，但陳瑩委員以原住民的身分，一天就搞定，這樣的例子非常多，因為他們真的把我們當成是一家人，其實他們對華人還是有一些戒慎恐懼。所以在這個部分，雖然我們的外交體系，可能大部分都是以西方文化來建構，缺乏南島文化為主體的關係；但是部長在這個位置上，我已經看到很多的改變，希望你繼續努力。","不過我也要提醒，中國正在有意識的滲透，要以掠奪南島起源的詮釋，來弱化臺灣的主體性。我們看到很多影音、抖音邀請這些年輕人，他們已經不再是天然綠、自然獨，很多年輕人會開始去那個地方交流，而說出這樣的話：我們臺灣少數民族也是有根的，我們的根在福建，是從福建東南沿海遷徙到臺灣的。這樣的言論在這個世代的年輕人是越來越多；我們也可以看到他們辦的海峽論壇，特別有一個叫做南島語族文化學術論壇，這樣的一個意圖，讓我們感到很憂心。我之前也特別提出，希望外交部能盤點原住民族的外交官，也要去做人才的培育，未來對於這些重點區域的派駐，針對原住民外交人才的可行性，能夠開始去思考。","還有，您剛才說邀訪是最好的一種形式，本席之前也說過要辦理南太平洋運動會，來串聯我們的南太平洋友邦；另外，我希望這些國際組織、重要會議也能夠主動邀請我們原住民族的這些國際人才一同參與。我記得上次對部長說過：我下次還會再問！你也對同仁說：要記得，委員還會再問，所以要規劃，不能就這樣不了了之。我不曉得規劃進度如何？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們有跟原民會討論，由他們提案，我們來一起推動。同時我也請同仁針對總合外交裡面的原住民外交，在部與部之間要有一個平台，就像我們最近跟環境部針對碳權在國際上合作；同樣跟原住民外交，我們的對口就是原民會，由兩個部會一起推原住民外交。除了這個活動之外，我覺得應該是全面性的，原住民外交其實可以作為臺灣外交主流化的一個主題，不只是太平洋地區，像加拿大、紐澳，甚至歐洲的國家，其實他們都將原住民當作一個主流、一個主題在推動；可是相對於我們來講，外交部的這個業務比較不是這麼主流；而原民會的業務也很多，外交好像也不是它最主要的。如果我們兩個部會來合作，應該可以把原住民外交推到一個新的層次。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：既然部長剛剛也提到已在規劃了，有沒有可能一個禮拜之內到辦公室……"],["林部長佳龍：我來了解一下進度，因為馬上就要出訪了。這次也是我特別推薦說原民會主委一定要參加。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很好。"],["林部長佳龍：包括總統府跟國安會也都覺得這樣很好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那就兩週後，好不好？或者是同仁來？"],["林部長佳龍：同仁先去拜訪委員，把委員的寶貴意見先納入我們未來進一步的規劃。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們希望有規劃、有進度，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們來推動。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，部長請回座。","接下來，請羅廷瑋委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-19","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳冠廷","王定宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅廷瑋","羅智強","邱志偉","葉元之","沈伯洋","黃仁","王鴻薇"],"page_start":97,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）；二、繼續\n處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案","agenda_id":"11310701_00002"}}},{"id":"157640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec25796649bdb864f7e99728768d6645aa784673100fefa9c0a589fc4001ca9689ad817b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:26:33 - 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不可以嘛 不可以嘛一般勞工 勞動部跟一般的企業講說勞工不可以連續上七天班但是勞動部勞動部他叫別人不能這樣做喔但是他現在在內部要求他們員工可能假日通通都要上班要上七天班人事長說可以"},{"start":174.665,"end":203.611,"text":"人事長剛剛講說只要特殊需求就可以所以因為我們服務如果是公務人員他服務的公共事務他有特殊的需要所以OK的嘛OK的嘛所以勞動所以那這樣子因為剛剛勞動部特別啊那個員工還說啊他們被下封口令說他們的勞動部的長官要求他們不能對外宣傳那如果按照副人事長的講法這是OK的啊這個因為是服務公眾嘛所以你們又不是一般的勞工你連續上期天班有什麼好講的"},{"start":204.531,"end":223.063,"text":"那幹嘛要下封口令啊?我現在不管是不是特別原因嘛反正現在就是說有上班嘛那你的意思是說OK嘛因為特殊原因OK嘛那為什麼要下封口令?為什麼要下封口令?你覺得你揣測一下"},{"start":224.223,"end":241.489,"text":"為什麼怕人家知道?為什麼怕人家知道?所以我是覺得部長的這個您的宣誓啦感覺上好像公務人員假日上班你也不覺得有怎麼樣你是覺得OK的啦那…靜情形才可以啦"},{"start":243.05,"end":265.045,"text":"那一般企業可不可以特殊情形然後找勞工連續上企業辦可不可以一般企業可不可以那看他符不符合勞基法的相關規定那符不符合嘛符不符合所以我就你不知道我們那個人事行政總署的官員居然連勞基法的規定不知道雖然不是你主管業務但是你是管公務人員的那你連勞工的相關規定都不曉得我真的是蠻訝異的那接下來請主計長請主計長"},{"start":269.724,"end":294.489,"text":"主計長跟審計長一起好了,因為我節省時間委員好主計長,那個,還是勞動部的問題啊那個前勞動部長挪用了就業安定基金然後去辦演唱會,花了365萬那剛剛審計長有說會調查嘛,會調查我就問啦,請問一下一般的機關在使用預算的時候,要不要審計蓋章"},{"start":296.36,"end":323.314,"text":"要不要?要不要主計蓋章?對不起,要不要主計蓋章?要不要?呃,他會有請購的一個程序你需不需要蓋章?回答問題就好,需要嘛齁那合宵的時候要不要主計蓋章?要那如果說到時候調查出來許民春這個東西是不應該的那主計,主計要負什麼責任?這個部分因為我們必須要看第一個他提出來的時候他是寫舉辦性別工作平等相關的一個規範"},{"start":324.568,"end":351.485,"text":"他在請購的時候經過那個主計他就認為他要辦這個業務是OK的所以他如果有欺騙主計的行為所以他當事人要對他的事實做負責那主計就是你是隨便蓋章喔不是他是就程序的一個程序蓋章而已嘛但是實際上大家期待主計是要審核嘛不是說只是程序上蓋章而已嘛好另外一個我問一下那個謝怡榮前分署長"},{"start":352.298,"end":358.97,"text":"他挪用了一百多萬就要你進行去裝潢他的辦公室可以嗎?主計可以嗎?"},{"start":360.041,"end":382.187,"text":"這個部也必須要看,因為當初他...不是,這就不可以啊我跟你講今天根據勞發署自己的說法說救安基金可以為了要提供服務必要可以去裝潢辦公室但是要符合比例原則啊所以當時主計在看的時候你就會發現說哇,你拿一百多萬去裝潢辦公室有這個必要嗎?就不應該蓋章啊那時候怎麼會就蓋了咧?"},{"start":385.108,"end":396.178,"text":"然後勞動部的次長說非常不妥當那非常不妥當結果咧還不是一樣讓他去做請問一下假設部長要裝到辦公室要不要上次長那邊"},{"start":398.018,"end":417.427,"text":"不知道看他們內部的審核的成績但是主計一定會嘛你是不是找個時間各位我問完了我再一句話就好第一個就是申請的時候要蓋章合效要蓋章那你都沒有發現說他這個是非常不符合比例原則嗎"},{"start":419.505,"end":437.582,"text":"因為這個部分我們也是要查一下他實際的狀況是怎麼樣才有辦法跟委員來報告的好那請你查一下好不好稍微那個查一次一下好那就是我想在這裡那個主計長盡速盡速那個查核的資料送給那個葉言之委員好謝謝謝謝葉言之"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1205,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時26分）主席好，麻煩請人事行政總處。"],["主席：人事行政總處副人事長。"],["葉委員元之：副人事長你好，剛剛有勞動部內部的員工爆料，新任的勞動部長在11月30日跟12月1日，每天早上9點鐘，第一天是到5點，第二天是到4點，連續兩天都要求同仁跟他做業務報告。裡面有的同仁是連續兩天要上班，包括陳次長明仁，還有綜合規劃司的同仁，連續兩天都要上班。這位內部員工就很不高興，勞動部一天到晚跟其他企業宣傳，說HR不能七天上班，可是他們卻必須要犧牲休假的時間，假日連續兩天來上班，這是剛剛勞動部的人講的。我想請教一下副人事長，在公家機關，公務人員是可以這樣子連續上班的嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：當然原則上我們是週休二日，但是如果有特殊的需要，或勤務上、業務上的需要來加班，是可以報加班。"],["葉委員元之：所以在法令上連續上七天班，在公務人員這個部分是OK的？"],["李副人事長秉洲：有特殊的情形或特殊需要。"],["葉委員元之：特殊情形，一般的企業可不可以因特殊情形連續上七天班，可以嗎？"],["李副人事長秉洲：一般企業？"],["葉委員元之：對，可以嗎？特殊情形就不用一例一休？"],["李副人事長秉洲：一般企業如果雇主請他特別出來，那當然就是按勞基法的規定去補休。"],["葉委員元之：所以一般企業是可以在特殊情況之下，連續上七天班，你剛剛的意思我沒有聽錯吧？"],["李副人事長秉洲：就是他如果是因為被雇主特別要求出來……"],["葉委員元之：就可以是不是？"],["李副人事長秉洲：看有沒有適合勞基法。"],["葉委員元之：就可以？好，副人事長居然講了一個跟勞基法完全相反的……"],["李副人事長秉洲：沒有，我是說如果符合勞基法規定才可以。"],["葉委員元之：那我就問你嘛！我就問一般企業的勞工可不可以連續上七天班，可不可以這問題很難回答嗎？可不可以？可不可以？可不可以？"],["李副人事長秉洲：一般勞工的話當然他也要有休息跟請假法規……"],["葉委員元之：不可以嘛！勞動部跟一般的企業說，勞工不可以連續上七天班。勞動部叫別人不能這樣做，但是在內部要求員工假日統統都要上班，要上七天班，人事長說可以，人事長剛剛說只要特殊需求就可以！"],["李副人事長秉洲：因為如果是公務人員，他服務的公共事務有特別的需求……"],["葉委員元之：所以OK的嘛！因為剛剛勞動部的員工還特別說，他們被下封口令，說勞動部的長官要求他們不能對外宣傳。如果按照副人事長的講法，這是OK的啊！因為是服務公眾嘛！你們又不是一般的勞工，連續上七天班有什麼好講的，那幹嘛要下封口令啊？"],["李副人事長秉洲：他如果是例假日出來，應該是會有特別經過……"],["葉委員元之：我現在不管是不是特別的原因，反正現在就是有上班，你的意思是OK嘛！因為特殊原因OK嘛！那為什麼要下封口令？你揣測一下，幹嘛怕人家知道？"],["李副人事長秉洲：這我無從去揣測。"],["葉委員元之：所以我是覺得副人事長的宣示，感覺上好像公務人員假日上班，你也不覺得有怎麼樣，你覺得是OK的！"],["李副人事長秉洲：要特定情形才可以啦！"],["葉委員元之：那一般企業可不可以因特殊情形，然後找勞工連續上七天班，一般企業可不可以？"],["李副人事長秉洲：那看他符不符合勞基法的相關……"],["葉委員元之：那符不符合？"],["李副人事長秉洲：那就看勞動部的……"],["葉委員元之：你不知道？我們人事行政總處的官員，居然連勞基法的規定都不知道，雖然不是你的主管業務，但你是管公務人員的，你連勞工的相關規定都不曉得，我也是蠻訝異的，接下來請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["葉委員元之：主計長跟審計長一起好了，因為我節省時間。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主計長，還是勞動部的問題，前勞動部長挪用了就業安定基金去辦演唱會，花了365萬，剛剛審計長有說會調查。我請問一下，一般的機關在使用預算的時候，要不要主計蓋章？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它會有一個請購的程序。"],["葉委員元之：需不需要蓋章，回答問題就好，需要嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：需要。"],["葉委員元之：那核銷的時候要不要主計蓋章？"],["陳主計長淑姿：要。"],["葉委員元之：如果到時候調查出來，許銘春這個東西是不應該的，那主計要負什麼責任？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分因為我們必須要看，他提出來的時候是寫舉辦性別工作平等相關的案子，那他在請購的時候，主計就認為他要辦這個業務是OK的。"],["葉委員元之：所以如果有欺騙主計的行為……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以當事人要對他的事實做負責。"],["葉委員元之：那主計你是隨便蓋章喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，他是就程序的一個合法性……"],["葉委員元之：程序蓋章而已嘛！但實際上大家期待主計是要審核嘛！不是只是程序上蓋章而已。另外一個我問一下，謝宜容前分署長挪用了一百多萬就業安定基金，去裝潢他的辦公室，這可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個也必須要看，因為當初他……"],["葉委員元之：不是，這就不可以啊！我跟你講，今天根據勞發署自己的說法，說就安基金可以，為了要提供服務必要，可以去裝潢辦公室，但是要符合比例原則啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以當時主計在看的時候就會發現，哇！你拿一百多萬去裝潢辦公室，有這個必要嗎？就不應該蓋章啊！當時怎麼就蓋了？然後勞動部次長說非常不妥當，結果呢？還不是一樣讓他去做。請問一下，假設部長要裝潢辦公室，章要不要到次長那邊？看他們內部審核的層級嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，看他們的流程。"],["葉委員元之：但是主計一定會嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["主席：主計長，你是不是找個時間……"],["葉委員元之：召委，我快問完了，我再一句話就好。"],["主席：好。"],["葉委員元之：第一個就是申請的時候要蓋章，核銷要蓋章，那你都沒有發現這是非常不符合比例原則嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這部分我們也是要查一下實際的狀況是怎麼樣，才有辦法跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：好，那請你查一下，召委裁示一下。"],["主席：主計長，查核的資料儘速送給葉元之委員，謝謝。謝謝元之，接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157639","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579669c83d8cea6949ac4768d6645aa784673100fefa9c0a589fc5e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:19:05 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Video、歡樂看、Li 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說我就是不可以做嘛你現在懂我的意思嗎就是說我們政府很多的政策之所以失敗利益都是良善的但是如果我們在設計整個實施的程序跟方法沒有把它想的配套完善一點就會導致民怨又起"},{"start":376.663,"end":390.313,"text":"這個民怨不是只有幾個待發業者,因為待發業者他就是告訴我說你不能還,因為我就是沒辦法,我就要跟你排隊嘛。你現在懂我的意思嗎?所以抱怨的一定是我,不是待發業者嘛。待發業者他當然也抱怨於他就做不成立,他也抱怨嘛。"},{"start":392.165,"end":417.551,"text":"我很贊成,你們真的要有作為去管,我幫你肯定嘛,很好,你如果想要打詐防詐而且動作積極,那你預告兩個月他造成塞車,如果我是NCC我就直接處罰,我告訴你兩個月前我就告訴你你為什麼不做,我就直接處罰你電信業者了啊,你就把我的話當放屁,所以那我就處罰你,我們是有公權力的,所以你不能把"},{"start":419.549,"end":432.931,"text":"電信業者怠惰不作為好如果是真的啦如果是真的那現在變成換下游的人在抱怨說我們做的這個政策好像一副那我當然知道打詐最重要嘛可是我們要怎麼讓"},{"start":435.035,"end":455.246,"text":"這個工作不會因為做A損B一下做B又損A我們怎麼讓A、B都可以雖然不能全滿意但都可以接受這就是政治能力我們這個政府的官員就是要有這個政治能力我只是今天來我看到太多人在抱怨我也收到很多的這個陳請我們馬上檢討"},{"start":457.287,"end":484.39,"text":"好不好馬上想一個方法怎麼可以快速消化我是不知道你們有很多手段可以做嗎怎麼樣快速去消化讓這個聲音可以下來但是做這件事情是對的就是防詐打詐這件事情本席絕對百分之一百的支持是謝謝委員好謝謝好那請那個陳主委請工程會陳主委主委我這邊只有一個小事你回去可能要特別再注意一下我看了一下"},{"start":485.578,"end":507.762,"text":"我們這個永續發展目標的資源解釋報告裡面這個重視生態永續這一一個單項那這個單項裡面我們有一個規定就是我們會去各個全國各機關查核需辦理生態檢核案件的這個情形那表格我們也都有但是我就發現從109年110年111到112好像這個案那個你看一下你有那個表嗎"},{"start":516.345,"end":531.334,"text":"那個案件數好像這個逐年增加這個表格在這裡你看這個案件數好像好像這個逐年從109年的21、29、14、48、40好像後面這個1、2、1、3開始這個數量都比明顯前三年來的高那我們的同仁有提到說這個工程人員對生態的認知較為不足"},{"start":545.52,"end":567.929,"text":"那本席是建議就是說那就是我們如果知道原因是工程人員對生態的認知不足對於永續沒有什麼概念那我們其實應該工程會發揮一點這種教育的角色怎麼把這些工程人員受訓啊或者是可能也辦過受訓那方法不好那我們可不可以想個什麼方法讓他們有一點這種概念就是說"},{"start":569.389,"end":580.114,"text":"這個一方面輔導一方面要適度有一些懲戒的手段讓這個工作得以持續不然的話我們再往後退步這數字比較難看主委你覺得呢"},{"start":582.336,"end":604.765,"text":"委員報告我們大概有幾個工具第一個就是在機關如果要提報金職獎的部分在評分裡面生態查核是一個加分第二個就是我們有委託相關的專業團體辦理生態檢核的研習那明年度有一個200萬的預算雖然不多"},{"start":605.265,"end":627.421,"text":"但是就是針對機關或者其他對生態檢測有興趣的舉辦研習這部分是有在做那畢竟整個國家的這個公共工程非常多當然有的機關對生態檢測並不是那麼熟悉而且是這近幾年的事情而已所以我們會加強宣導跟教育推動"},{"start":628.061,"end":656.419,"text":"好,沒問題啦,我是說齁,主委這個數字我都是看數字管理啦齁,我一路把你們都問這些數字的事情所以我的意思是說我只能從你們提供的這些數據裡面來看這一項工作我們同仁到底落實的狀況怎麼樣阿至少我們如果不要讓他說好像你看從20幾件變40幾件齁,如果用%數來講這倍增了所以注意一下那個數字就是說到底原因出在哪裡,怎麼讓它降低好不好,阿你就自己想一個方法來做啦齁"},{"start":657.301,"end":657.602,"text":"OK好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":875,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（12時6分）謝謝主席。請NCC黃主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主秘好。有關詐騙的建議、要求，NCC有一些回應，本席覺得很好，但是對這個回應，我開始覺得你們的作法好像目標是要打詐、防詐，但是可能方法上會有很大的問題。本席過去一直在說，企業發送簡訊，譬如說政府現在像中華電信的111……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：通用簡碼的部分。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，通用簡碼。本席認為通用簡碼的運用，至少應該從大型企業，譬如說像銀行、政府部門……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：銀行已經開始了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我知道，所以它都已經開始做，這個是好的事情，因為我們防詐主要讓消費者知道這個簡訊是真的還是假的，所以當我們在告知或者教育消費大眾的時候，很清楚地知道只要辨識上面發來的，不管是111或者是什麼，這個碼就一定是真的簡訊。現在NCC發函三大電信業者的作法是，你們在11月13號公布一個新規定，在5天以後要實施，這個規定裡面的重點就是這個簡訊如果帶有URL或者短網址或者電話號碼，這些都要求要去跟三大業者進行登記，也就是我這個公司想要發的簡訊內容有短網址啦、有電話啦，就要先去登記。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。所以換言之，你們這個政策要做的是什麼？做的就是只要想發這種大宗簡訊的、有這些內文含這些東西的，就先控管住了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，好！現在問題來了，主秘你現在知道有多少業者要發這個簡訊，在三大業者那裡排隊嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：根據他們給我的資料是說一年大概有一億則。"],["蔡委員其昌：對！有多少現在排隊在等待？這個叫白名單，就是要進入那個白名單，你知道現在有多少的民間公司去申請三大業者要進入白名單，然後在那裡等，不知道什麼時候可以開始做？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我大概知道委員的意思啦！因為是這樣子，過去的話，其實是只要在網際網路那邊登錄一下，刷個卡，他們的簡訊代發業者或是個人，一下就出去了，所以當時造成非常多的詐騙。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：後來我們發現這不是辦法，所以要在兩者之間取得平衡。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：也就是說，在詐騙跟方便、迅速之間要取得平衡。委員您在說的是現在電信業者有在抱怨有一些沒有辦法必須要……應該是說簡訊代發業者，主要是簡訊代發業者這邊，因為電信業者大概都會以自動化方式來處理，但是在簡訊代發業者那邊，因為過去很方便，網際網路那邊只要看到有繳費，它就把訊號丟到電信業者，然後就送出去了，現在主要大概都是簡訊代發業者那邊可能稍微會有點抱怨，認為這樣的結果可能會造成他們在服務上面的一些延宕。跟委員報告，因為這個制度是剛開始實施，所以難免在實施的過渡期間，也許會有些遲延，但是我想大概過一陣子，大家溝通完之後，應該會解決這個問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，其實是這樣子，我剛剛一開始就跟你肯定，你們想要做防詐、打詐，我肯定！但是方法極糟啦！10月13號公布，18號實施，所以現在大家就等於生意不用做了嘛！簡單講，不要講到詐騙，我的服務處要發一個聖誕節的簡訊，因為我的量大，可能有兩萬通，我要透過代發業者發也不可以，因為我上面有留：您最真誠的朋友，服務專線幾號，有我的服務處電話號碼。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為委員是名人，他們可能還更擔心。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思就是要告訴你，你們要做這個事情，我沒有意見。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：目標是對的，你是要打詐、防詐嘛，但是你們公布到實施就只有5天的時間，電信業者都不知道怎麼消化這些來申請要進入白名單的人。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我的意思只是告訴你，你們今天回去應該趕快去研議。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，知道。"],["蔡委員其昌：不然就是時間稍微久一點，或者就多一點人，我們想辦法，問電信業者你有沒有能力吃下、處理量多少，民怨就不會起，這就是配套嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，這個動作其實已經預告兩個月了，中華電信比較快，另外兩家電信業者到18號，現在癥結問題其實都是在簡訊代發業者那一端，因為簡訊代發業者……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我其實沒有在乎是哪一端，因為簡訊代發業者它所承受的還是我們嘛！譬如我只要講我個人就好了，我也是透過簡訊代發業者去幫我發，但它告訴我就是不可以做嘛！你現在懂我的意思嗎？就是說我們政府很多政策之所以失敗，立意都是良善的，但是如果在設計整個實施程序跟方法，沒有把它的配套想得完善一點，就會導致民怨又起啦！而這個民怨不是只有幾個代發業者，因為代發業者就是告訴我不能發！因為沒辦法，就是還在排隊，你現在懂我的意思嗎？所以抱怨的一定是我，不是代發業者嘛！代發業者當然也會抱怨，因為它做不到生意，它也抱怨嘛！我很贊成，你們真的要有作為去管，我幫你肯定，很好！你們有想要打詐、防詐，而且動作積極。但你預告兩個月，它造成塞車，如果我是NCC，我就直接處罰了，在兩個月前我就告訴你，你為什麼不做？我就直接處罰電信業者了啊！因為你把我的話當放屁！那我就處罰你！我們是有公權力的。電信業者怠惰不作為如果是真的，現在就換成下游的人在抱怨，我們做的這個政策好像一副……我當然知道打詐最重要，可是我們要怎麼讓這個工作不會因為做A損B、一下做B又損A，我們怎麼讓A、B都可以，雖然不能全滿意，但都可以接受！這就是政治能力嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們的政府官員就是要有這個政治能力，我只是今天來看到太多人在抱怨，我也收到很多的陳情。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們馬上檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：好不好？馬上想一個方法怎麼可以快速消化，我是不知道，但你們有很多手段可以做嘛！看要怎麼樣快速去消化，讓這個聲音可以下來？但是做這件事情是對的，就是防詐、打詐這件事情，本席絕對百分之一百的支持。謝謝。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：請陳主委。"],["主席：請工程會陳主委。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，我這邊只有一個小事，你回去可能要特別再注意一下，我看了一下永續發展目標的自願檢視報告裡面重視生態永續這一個單項，這個單項裡面有一個規定，就是會去全國各機關查核需辦理生態檢核案件情形，表格我們也都有，但是我就發現從109年、110年、111年到112年，你有那個表嗎？你看一下那個案件數好像逐年增加，從109年的21、29、14、48、40，後面112年、113年開始的數量明顯都比前三年來得高，我們的同仁有提到工程人員對生態的認知較為不足，本席是建議，我們如果知道原因是工程人員對生態認知不足，對於永續沒有什麼概念，那工程會應該發揮一點教育的角色，怎麼讓這些工程人員受訓，可能也辦過受訓，但方法不好，那我們可不可以想個什麼方法讓他們有一點這種概念？也就是說，一方面輔導，一方面也要適度有一些懲戒的手段，讓這個工作得以持續；不然的話，我們再往後退步，這數字比較難看啦！主委，你覺得呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，我們大概有幾個工具，第一個就是機關如果要提報金質獎，在評分裡面，生態查核是一個加分；第二個就是我們有委託相關專業團體辦理生態檢核的研習，明年度有一個200萬的預算，雖然不多，但就是針對機關，或者其他對生態檢核有興趣的舉辦研習，這部分是有在做。畢竟整個國家的公共工程非常多，當然有的機關對生態檢核並不是那麼熟悉，而且這是近幾年的事情而已，所以我們會加強宣導跟教育來推動。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，沒問題啦！主委，我都是看數字管理啦！一直以來我都是問你關於數字的事情，所以我的意思是說，我只能從你們提供的這些數據來看這一項工作同仁到底落實的狀況怎麼樣，至少不要讓它從二十幾件變成四十幾件，如果用%數來講，這是倍增了！所以注意一下那個數字到底原因出在哪裡，怎麼讓它降低，好不好？你們就自己想一個方法來做啦！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員。接下來邀請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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,{"start":383.618,"end":396.443,"text":"你的諮詢委員要參加預審和你參加預審之後還有還領的不是出席費不是車馬費而已你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類結果呢你們的諮詢委員預審了然後不用寫結案書類然後你們對於委員申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數給委員一"},{"start":412.329,"end":435.947,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":436.087,"end":452.214,"text":"不是這個出席費是結案書類的錢他也可以領又可以預審欸假送喔不用參加不用被公開姓名不用被問責這個才是民主問責的笑話"},{"start":454.225,"end":465.838,"text":"為什麼要公開?你來跟他諮詢、跟他出席、跟他抽碼配我認為可以不用公開但是他不是,他可以預審還可以領審查書類,他不用寫到後可以再分錢這個不用公開、不用公開這個不是笑話嗎?"},{"start":479.948,"end":497.278,"text":"諮詢委員你說不能公開有人請壓力啊真正在審案只要撤寫結案書類真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人請壓力嗎?他的人請壓力更大你不要在這裡胡說八道扭曲各執法不要舉著各執法的高旗在這裡為這一些利益爭奪胸到底你能不能接受"},{"start":509.008,"end":519.357,"text":"不是你個人說了算好我們時間到了主席你這樣子幹嘛呢你已經超過一倍的時間啦我超過一倍的時間這個事情難道不該被討論嗎主席護航不用護航成這個樣子啦我是在護航是啦你就是在護航啦我也不想講了啦我跟你講說整個聲勢委員跟諮詢委員這件事情恐反其委員你看"},{"start":538.587,"end":544.715,"text":"主席沒有說他﹖時間到了﹖今天針對委員的質詢我們在請工程會我們會後在審慎地進行檢討"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":801,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時57分）謝謝主席，是不是請工程會？"],["主席：請工程會陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["林委員淑芬：主委好。因為今天也有其他委員提到，當然這是黃揚明先生提出的問題，所以我今天很難得必須要來就教於你，第一個，採購申訴委員會的任務是政府跟承包廠商有履約爭議時的調解裁判者，事涉到政府的錢，是人民納稅的血汗錢跟廠商的利益，是公共工程糾紛當中最重要的裁判法庭，等於是這樣的位置，請問主委，法院審理的時候，法庭在開庭的時候，你覺得一個負責審判的法官，一下子扮演業者的代理人，律師的角色，一下子站在業者的利益這一邊，然後一下子又變成法官，又是履約爭議裁判的法官這種角色，還會跟其他的法官討論案子怎麼判，像這樣子又是法官又是律師，然後負責開庭，你可以接受嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，應該不是裁判者，他是調解建議的提出者，他提出的是調解建議。"],["林委員淑芬：你不要在裁判者這個角色上，名詞上再來打轉。"],["陳主任委員金德：事實上他沒有裁判的功能。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問你的是，一下子是業者的代理人，一下子是調解者、裁判者，寫結案書類，負責審查的仲裁角色，這兩個角色沒有衝突嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，他的本質就是調解建議的提出者。第二個，如果有該迴避的，有相關迴避……"],["林委員淑芬：你覺得這兩種角色可以同時在那裡扮演嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委跟你回答。"],["林委員淑芬：不要，不要副主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：我也跟你報告得很清楚，他是一個調解，他並不是裁判，跟法院的……"],["林委員淑芬：你剛剛講說他有利益迴避的義務，但我問你，孔繁琦委員，這樣子說好了啦！有很多律師執業生涯從來不曾接過有工程會申訴的案件，孔律師這3年代理了三十幾件，這一年超過10件，由此可知，你們的孔委員就是專門打這一種官司，你聘他當委員，他可以獲得多大的好處？然後你說他利益迴避，你有想過其他的委員每個禮拜都要跟他一起開會，他的案件大家看到了會不會有壓力？每次開會都要見面，壓力很大，其他委員。更不要講你們的行政部門業務承辦人，沒有壓力嗎？壓力很大！我再講，你這樣子聘他當申訴委員，你把其他的申訴委員當傻瓜嗎？其他不接這種案子的申訴委員，他們是傻瓜嗎？難道他們不會想說我是申訴委員，我出去外面招攬生意，我如果不跟孔繁琦一樣，我就是傻瓜！是你鼓勵其他申訴委員，大家一起來，打著工程會委員的名號，直接去工程界招攬生意，這樣子你可以接受嗎？只要做到表面上的利益迴避，你就可以接受了嗎？我今天再講，孔委員專門打這種官司，然後成為申訴委員，這個是官箴敗壞的起點！官箴敗壞的起點！"],["陳主任委員金德：委員，這樣指責對孔委員不公平，對工程會也不公平。"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有講孔委員，我講制度，既是球員又是裁判，既是業者的律師又是法官，這個就是官箴敗壞，敗壞羞辱到的是你！"],["陳主任委員金德：孔律師代表政府有二百多件……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講孔律師，我講的是你……"],["陳主任委員金德：孔律師代表有二百多件……"],["林委員淑芬：他代理多少政府案件不管，他自己就是工程爭議這些案件的代理人，你不要講他幫政府打多少官司，他現在幫有工程爭議到你們工程會來申訴的案件，三年三十幾件，今年十幾件，這不是一般律師欸！他是專門辦這種案件的律師，所以有問題的是你，不是孔律師！"],["陳主任委員金德：我不接受委員這種指責。"],["林委員淑芬：是聘他為申訴委員的陳主委你有問題！"],["陳主任委員金德：我沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：最好是啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，這樣講對孔委員實在是不公平。"],["林委員淑芬：我講的是你……"],["陳主任委員金德：我也沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：不是孔委員。"],["陳主任委員金德：我也沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：陳副主委，你還笑得出來……"],["陳主任委員金德：我也沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：你也是這樣講嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們相當沒有問題！"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我再講，你這麼厚顏無恥，我也沒辦法。"],["陳主任委員金德：厚顏無恥，我不接受！"],["林委員淑芬：工程會的審議委員有內部會議的第一手資料……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們無法接受厚顏無恥的指控。"],["林委員淑芬：主席，我在講話，他這樣干擾我，我有叫他回答嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我不接受這種厚顏無恥的指控。"],["林委員淑芬：審議委員有內部委員會開會的第一手資料，透過資訊不對等，可以出去販賣這一種不對等的資訊……"],["陳主任委員金德：這種指控也不合理。"],["林委員淑芬：業者就會相信這個委員、這個律師真的有夠力！這樣是誰的損失？每一個案子都要政府物價調整的，增加預算的都是民脂民膏，你主委讓這種有業者的代理人，專門打業者代理人來當審議委員，慷人民之慨，賺更多政府的錢，這樣子你可以接受嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是事實，也是毫無根據的指控！"],["主席：林委員，我們時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼時間到了？我還有。"],["主席：你的質詢時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：剛才國民黨的立委連質詢都不會，我跟他說，我聽不下去，為什麼要公開他的姓名，是為了民主的問責，你的諮詢委員要參加預審，可是參加預審之後領的不是出席費、不是車馬費而已，你們在最後申訴委員要寫結案書類，結果你們的諮詢委員預審了，然後不用寫結案書類，你們對於申訴委員寫的結案書類是以當事人所繳費用的半數，給委員依諮詢委員0.6的比例核給，所以要被公開名字、要寫結案書類，這種申訴委員最高上限領3萬，可以參加預審，然後不用寫結案書類，還可以領0.6比例，一個案件領2萬的諮詢委員，不是車馬費、不是出席費……"],["主席：林委員，我們時間到了，超過了。"],["林委員淑芬：是結案書類的錢他也可以領，又可以預審，很爽喔！不用被公開姓名、不用被問責，這個才是民主問責的笑話！為什麼要公開？如果只有諮詢、只有出席、只有車馬費，我認為可以不用公開，但是他不是，他可以預審，還可以領審查書類，他不用寫之外還可以分錢，這樣不用公開？不用公開，這個不是笑話嗎？諮詢委員……"],["主席：林委員，我們時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：我最後一句！諮詢委員，你說不能公開，有人情壓力，真正在審案子要寫結案書類，真正有權審查的申訴委員不會有人情壓力嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是法律規定的，不是人情壓力。"],["林委員淑芬：他的人情壓力更大！你不要在這裡胡說八道。"],["陳主任委員金德：這是法律規定的。"],["林委員淑芬：扭曲個資法……"],["主席：時間到了，請尊重其他委員質詢的時間跟權利，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：不要舉著個資法的高旗在這裡為這一些利益遮羞。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個完全是……"],["主席：時間到了，請陳主委回座，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：到底你能不能接受，不是你個人說了算！"],["主席：好，我們時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：主席，你這樣子幹嘛呢？"],["主席：你已經超過一倍的時間啦！你要尊重本委員會。"],["林委員淑芬：我超過一倍的時間，這個事情難道不該被討論嗎？"],["主席：我們剛剛有……"],["林委員淑芬：主席護航不用護航成這個樣子。"],["主席：我不是在護航。"],["林委員淑芬：是啦！你就是在護航啦！"],["主席：請尊重其他委員的質詢權利。"],["林委員淑芬：我也不想講了啦！我跟你講，整個申訴委員跟諮詢委員這件事情，孔繁琦委員……你看，主席沒有說，他就……"],["主席：時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：你就是不敢面對啦！"],["主席：今天針對委員的質詢，請工程會於會後再審慎地進行檢討，謝謝。","接下來邀請蔡其昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","羅智強","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算；四、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基\n金預算；五、審查113 年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計 2 案\n（第一案至第四案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00002"}}},{"id":"157634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579668f5aa81e8b89f837ddac5fd2c67d7ae1100fefa9c0a589fc9cc3a2a7c74431455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:46:29 - 11:56:48","影片長度":"00:10:19","會議時間":"2024-11-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基金預算。\n五、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答；委員預算提案於12月16日中午12時前截止收件】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-28","start_time":"2024-11-28T11:46:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-28T11:56:48+08:00","duration":619,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-12"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.5453437500000002,"end":3.6253437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.544093750000002,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.38346875,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.61471875,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.204718750000005,"end":49.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.250968750000006,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.440343750000004,"end":63.953468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.32471875,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.42596875000001,"end":64.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.56096875,"end":64.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.96159375,"end":109.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.12346875,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.25721875,"end":118.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.64846875,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.39846875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.75596875000002,"end":178.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.27721875,"end":183.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.66471875000002,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.55846875,"end":225.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.75096875000003,"end":229.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.42971875,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.25221875000003,"end":253.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.25284375,"end":259.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.56846875,"end":311.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.30284375,"end":321.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.51659375,"end":322.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.98471875,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.12346875000003,"end":329.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.22846875000005,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.57846875,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.19846875,"end":340.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.85534375000003,"end":347.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.22159375,"end":353.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.83221875000004,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.60409375,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.43846875,"end":381.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.04034375000003,"end":372.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.37346875000003,"end":374.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.82784375,"end":415.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.75471875000005,"end":391.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.98096875000005,"end":401.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.30159375000005,"end":401.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.03971875,"end":403.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.91534375000003,"end":416.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.25284375,"end":423.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.99846875000003,"end":429.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.92596875000004,"end":436.24971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.38971875000004,"end":431.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.88721875000005,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.96659375,"end":439.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.50659375000004,"end":439.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.54034375000003,"end":452.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.50159375000004,"end":444.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.38284375,"end":448.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.59784375000004,"end":450.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.79159375,"end":486.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.03096875000006,"end":489.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.94596875,"end":489.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.97971875,"end":491.09346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.30034375,"end":494.02971875000003},{"speaker":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策也已經請第1業者在配合了"},{"start":503.018,"end":518.263,"text":"不過這部分因為我們也是擔心現在尤其鄉下很多老人家被詐騙的情形非常的嚴重所以針對相關的一些宣導作為應該要結合我們相關的部會一起到針對這個偏鄉部會應該加強一個宣導我們利用各種途徑要加強宣導"},{"start":519.324,"end":533.485,"text":"對,因為這個我們很擔心這個老人家,真的就是被詐騙的一個罪狀。我們除了宣導之外,其實也有其他一些措施,比如說請業者就針對利用這個AI的這個偵測系統,或者是說一些簡訊部分的話,我們也事先攔阻。"},{"start":534.546,"end":549.126,"text":"主委那最後因為12月1號我們委員剩下三位嘛那我們還是很擔心整個NCC的業務會不會受到影響那這部分主委這邊跟我們下班的同仁有沒有什麼樣的疑問作為我們昨天也有跟委員"},{"start":549.907,"end":568.202,"text":"委員我們那個委員會議結束之後也跟三位委員我們三位也做了一次檢討那在既有的58項業務部分當然我們那個本來就可以不一定要經過委員會議的這我們會更去進行那另外在104項業務部分的話我們委員也相當負責任也就是說你104項業務如果假設有個別業務產生的話那雖然我們會開所謂的之一會議"},{"start":573.866,"end":581.856,"text":"最後可能沒有辦法去做最後的決定但是是不是一定要到這種程序我們三位委員到時候會再做一次的過濾就104項業務的部分"},{"start":585.947,"end":614.803,"text":"但是我想我們也不能因為現在人委員減少所以造成這些民生的一些問題甚至這些詐騙的案件這個變成我們查緝不利這個不能拿這個當藉口啦所以這個部分怎麼樣去做最有力的一個人力的一個調適要請主秘這邊真的要加油啦我們全會同仁一定會盡力不管有沒有法令所有這些在沒有法令的情形底下相關措施我們還是會進行好好謝謝"},{"start":617.493,"end":617.837,"text":"謝謝徐富奎委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":759,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時46分）謝謝主席，有請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：主委好。主委，今年陸續有好幾個颱風造成屏東的一些基礎建設嚴重受損，尤其是10月份的山陀兒，屏東有很多地方都被掃得「糜糜卯卯」，我想請教主委，現在屏東縣提出104件的復建工程，總預算大概2.41億，目前已經報到工程會，不曉得目前處理的進度到哪裡？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，跟委員報告，屏東就是兩個颱風，一個凱米，一個山陀兒嘛！凱米那時候核了144件，總經費5.38億，那麼縣府現在在規劃設計發包中，這部分是確定的，就是縣府來發包。山陀兒的部分有提了104件，總經費2.4億，預計在12月2日工程會會來審議，我們會儘速來完成這個審議。"],["徐委員富癸：對，主委，這點還是要特別拜託您，因為我們鄉親現在，尤其像枋寮那個堤岸破了一個大洞，現在是緊急用消波塊跟太空包先擋起來，但是大家也會擔心，以現在極端氣候的天候狀況，真的沒辦法把握說什麼時候會再造成很大的災損，所以大家都希望能夠加快來核定，儘快來施工。我知道公共工程委員會這邊也很用心，但是這個部分後續能不能再把時程壓縮？因為這個是10月份發生的，到你12月2日審查，然後再來發包，程序上還要拖好幾個月，後續有沒有辦法再把時間壓縮，快一點？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，目前工程會的做法就是會親自到現場，各單位在審議之前就會去看，基本上就可以大致確定要核多少，然後審議就很快了，所以我們會在12月2日這一天就迅速來完成，當然也希望縣政府在經費核發之後，能夠進行設計發包的作業來改善相關的災損。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我想縣政府這邊也責無旁貸，我們會請縣政府這邊加速將前面的設計程序先做完，不過因為我們這次的復建需求有涵蓋道路、橋梁及水利設施，我知道主委前陣子去一些縣市勘災的時候，除了針對災損的復建工程之外，也有特別提到防災韌性跟超前規劃的一些治山防洪也好，水利的問題也好，主委，針對屏東的部分，是不是能夠再幫忙屏東縣政府來做這樣子的規劃？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，因為水利署也非常用心，過去幾年下來的水利設施，一些治水的計畫都已經有一定的效果，所以有時候是極端氣候，如果有急降雨或者是豪大雨，當然過去的排水設施可能量能不足導致會淹水，但是我們將來的水利治理邏輯是希望能夠不要造成生命財產的損失，或者是長時間的不便。如果因為急降雨等等，因為水溝等等量能不足，雖然會淹水，但是希望能夠迅速解決，迅速地來排水，當然也希望有些設施能夠分擔滯洪的功能，比方說一些易淹水地區的農田或公園等等，希望在設計上或者是計畫上能夠分擔一點滯洪功能來減少道路或民房的淹水，所以將來經濟部水利署這方面會根據院長的指示，朝調適然後分洪這樣的概念來做一些新的水利設施。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，關於這一點，因為我們屏東幅員遼闊，而且很多都是從山區，有可能一年的雨量在兩、三天下完，所以從山區下來會經過我們一些保安林地，一些山坡地，甚至台糖的農田，下來到我們平地的時候，那個雨量真的非常非常大，那剛剛主委講得很好，未來希望透過跨部會的整合，把所謂的治山防洪也好，還有包含我們的區排，甚至農田水利署的灌溉排水，能夠整個來做盤點，把治水的部分做有效的處理，這樣才能減少水患的機會，就這部分，主委願不願意來做整合的工作？"],["陳主任委員金德：這部分在行政院有一個小組，叫「水及流域永續推動小組」，就是整合各部會，關於河川的治理或是污染的防治，或者是下游或上游的山坡地維護等等，會做整體的考量，那麼希望將來有一個整體的預算，在各部會都會分配這樣的工作，來做好治水、防水的工作。"],["徐委員富癸：這邊也要拜託主委，用主委的專業再來幫忙一下我們屏東，好，謝謝主委，主委請回。","有請NCC黃主秘。"],["主席：請黃主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主秘，上次我有問交通部，因為颱風期間造成停電的問題，導致基地臺通訊幾乎都中斷，比較麻煩的是，像我們很多鄉鎮公所本身是指揮中心，結果因為停電的關係通訊不良，造成指揮的工作面臨很大的挑戰，那交通部這邊有允諾要協助，請中華電信來幫忙，但是我們發現我們林邊鄉有做了一個高抗災的基地臺，有發揮一定的效果，未來NCC是不是可以協調相關的電信業者，針對像屏東這樣子容易受風災影響的區域，可以來強化通訊的品質，然後提升救災的能量？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，目前高抗災這部分主要是數位部那邊在處理，不過委員的這個指示，會請我們同仁可能在主要的這些易受災地區再檢討一下，然後把這個資料再交給數位部。"],["徐委員富癸：對，電信業者的部分就要麻煩你們來幫忙溝通。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好，沒有問題。"],["徐委員富癸：因為這個確實是在災害的時候發生很大的作用。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：瞭解，我想將來這種情況可能會更多。"],["徐委員富癸：主秘，針對最近詐騙集團利用網路電話詐騙的行徑，也非常地囂張，目前NCC有沒有做什麼樣的防範作為？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對，謝謝委員提醒這個問題，最近我們確實是有發現兩個案例，已經有利用網路電話的情況，所以目前已經在修我們的號碼管理辦法，將來除了它是供自己企業內部用的之外，其他假設你是要收攏網際網路來的這些訊務，然後你要銜接到公眾電信網路，就這一塊的話，我們會跟數位部那邊再協調，也在修改號碼管理辦法，將來這些業者都必須要申請070的號碼。"],["徐委員富癸：主秘，現在上有政策下有對策啦！詐騙集團他們的手法日新月異，你們提了一個新的政策，它馬上就變一個方式來處理。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這部分請委員放心，我們在修改這個法令的同時，我們有相關的政策，也已經請電信業者在配合了。"],["徐委員富癸：不過這個部分，因為我們也是擔心，尤其鄉下很多老人家被詐騙的情形非常嚴重，所以相關的宣導作為應該要結合相關的部會，針對偏鄉的部分應該要加強宣導。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，瞭解，我們會利用各種途徑來加強宣導。"],["徐委員富癸：對，因為我們很擔心老人家，他真的是被詐騙最主要的一個對象。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：瞭解，我們除了做宣導之外，其實也有其他一些措施，比如說請業者利用AI的偵測系統，或者是有一些簡訊部分的話，我們也事先攔阻。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，因為12月1日我們委員剩下3位嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["徐委員富癸：我們還是很擔心整個NCC的業務會不會受到影響，那這部分，主秘這邊跟相關的同仁有沒有什麼樣的因應作為？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，跟委員報告，因為我們昨天委員會議結束之後，3位委員也做了一次檢討，在既有的58項業務部分，那個本來就不一定要經過委員會議，這個我們會賡續進行。另外在104項業務部分，我們委員也相當負責任啦！也就是說，104項業務假設有個別業務產生的話，雖然我們會開所謂的諮議會議，可能沒有辦法去做最後的決定，但是是不是一定要到這種程序，我們3位委員到時候會再做一次過濾，就104項業務的部分。"],["徐委員富癸：對，我想也不能因為現在委員減少，所以造成民生的一些問題。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：瞭解，我們絕對不影響民眾權益情形下來做。"],["徐委員富癸：甚至這些詐騙的案件，變成我們查緝不力，不能拿這個當藉口啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，瞭解。"],["徐委員富癸：所以這個部分怎麼樣去做最有利的人力調適，請主秘這邊真的要加油啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們全會同仁一定會盡力，不管有沒有法令，所有這些，在沒有法令的情形底下，相關措施我們還是會進行。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","接下來邀請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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主委好委員長這個我們的我不只不只單指我們政府工程其實整個臺灣工程界非常的亂常常包商打來打去都是很常見的情況工程完了不給錢跑路等等的很多情況所以說其實在我們政府的公共工程裡面我們當然一部分是希望說品質要好但是其實我們民眾對於我們政府的期待希望說每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商也都能夠得到他應有的報酬"},{"start":40.951,"end":41.592,"text":"告知公共工程委員會"},{"start":58.406,"end":58.586,"text":"關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":83.951,"end":84.291,"text":"主管通訊傳播監主辦機關"},{"start":103.179,"end":125.207,"text":"拖延付款給主承包商主承包商不付款給下包商政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題承包商除非契約裡面聯合承攬或其他明確的關係否則承包商跟他的下包之間應該屬於民法的關係"},{"start":126.107,"end":142.331,"text":"不過,那我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如止,所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的一個反應,必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。"},{"start":142.891,"end":170.646,"text":"對當然過去起來常來常常發生這樣子的事情我就說不只我們政府機關那陳儒剛剛講的為了避免小包哪包的錢我們會有一個監管契約當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商那這些廠商可能會來因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑這比較少見的情況所以我們有監管契約有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商直接把錢給下游的廠商就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商就是這樣子的那"},{"start":172.347,"end":186.684,"text":"目前又遇到了一個情況因為這監管契約畢竟他也只是屬於未接他不是法律未接他是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已所以說當法院有相關支付命令的時候"},{"start":188.288,"end":189.768,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播監"},{"start":213.173,"end":213.774,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":225.285,"end":246.294,"text":"就是中間中有跑掉的廠商他因為有被法院有支付命令債了所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人他去跟這個可能跟你們的企業廠商去拿那當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛對不對你們只給廠商一支錢廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊那他怎麼可能先把錢給下屬廠商那遇到這樣子的問題我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共的採購法一樣用法律的位階來保障"},{"start":253.897,"end":260.159,"text":"所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個這個承攬的可能比較下游的廠商。委員好,因為這個整個工程的實務上面分包是常態,而且會有可能層層的分包,這是營建的實務。"},{"start":277.56,"end":294.952,"text":"那它每一個廠商跟分包商之間以及在跟下包商之間權利物非常複雜有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起所以確實委員所講的沒有錯我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限"},{"start":295.972,"end":317.248,"text":"另外當然有一個比較有效的是他要設立權力職權但是因為他程序比較複雜也比較不容易執行所以通常都是使用監督付款的機制監督付款的機制畢竟他還是屬於一個債權讓宜的性質所以他就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快"},{"start":318.148,"end":328.795,"text":"因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告是有困難我們有沒有辦法在法律上面"},{"start":331.411,"end":349.767,"text":"當然法律執行命令是絕對是有一定它的一個強度在但是它的一個優先順序我們就常理來說我來幫你做工程結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了這件事情就常理來看就是很不合理支付命令一定有它的一個"},{"start":350.808,"end":366.499,"text":"就是他在法律上的位階他就是欠他錢他一定要給他錢是沒有問題的但是他的位階應該要低於我們應該實際拿到的工程款或許他在承包的過程中他有什麼監督啊或者是一些其他的一定會有利潤嘛"},{"start":367.259,"end":390.72,"text":"那他的支付命令的範圍應該要被限縮在相關的他這一家中油廠商的利潤而已而不是說支付命令連要把下游廠商的錢一併都拿過去那目前問題是法律的位階就是如此那我希望你們在我們公共工程委員會的以後的在我們的公共工程採購法裡面能夠更加的保障我們的下游廠商"},{"start":392.543,"end":409.151,"text":"我們的這個監管契約把它相關的一個條約內容監管的契約等等的把它入法入法之後那他應該在法律上面的球場上面有更高的一個權利就不會被法院的支付mini給壓過去了"},{"start":410.111,"end":432.524,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們當然會朝這個方向來研究看看但是確實跟委員報告就是說如果說我們賦予他這麼強大的效率的話那對機關來講會非常困擾因為機關不大容易確定這個廠商跟他承包商之間的債務是不是真的只限於因為這個工程產生的"},{"start":432.904,"end":457.949,"text":"而且因為他們有可能是長期合作他們長期下來累積的可能很多債權債務那要叫機關去負責把它查明我覺得可能機關...你在驗收的時候本來就要查過啦驗收的時候本來就要查清楚這筆款項多少錢這是清清楚楚的啊所以跟委員報告就是說我們會往這個方向來嚴厲看看啦我提的方法不一定是最好的我相信你們遇到的情況應該比我聽過遇到的還多"},{"start":460.069,"end":486.292,"text":"但是到目前為止我們又走了一步就是我不知道這個監督副管機制是多久以前推出來了至少我們有看到問題了但是目前我們解決的方案還是又遇到了另外一個問題或許有的廠商他很惡劣就知道說支付命令的法律位階就是更高嘛他就故意給你卡了一個這個卡了一個支付命令在那邊啊他就故意來騙你啊騙你嚇唬廠商啊那我們遇到的問題我們就是要解決嘛"},{"start":487.193,"end":501.811,"text":"好不好那你們沒關係我不管是我的提的方法或是說你們認為怎麼做可以更好我當然都尊重能夠解決問題最重要那你們是不是能夠在多少的時間以內研究未來可能可以改善我上述講的問題的一些解決方法"},{"start":504.614,"end":532.109,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在正在徵詢各界對於政府採購法修正的意見那包括剛才委員所提示的當然我們會納入整個評估那我們等這些各界意見都收集好了之後會內部做討論就相關政府採購法裡面現有的不足以保證這個採購程序的我們都要一併來處理好不好那你們有沒有預計我們沒有辦法這個現在就是說多久提出一個方案"},{"start":532.729,"end":560.887,"text":"因為畢竟修法是一個比較必須考慮到周詳而且還要預告然後各界意見修好了之後再送行政院對,你們目標哪時候送行政院送來交委會我們希望在下個會期或下下個會期之前明年嘛好不好,那當你們內部有一些共識的時候我希望來做一些提前的討論OK,到這裡請委員支持好不好,再麻煩好,謝謝,謝謝指揮,謝謝主席好,謝謝廖先生"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":724,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時36分）謝謝主席，麻煩請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["廖委員先翔：主委好。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["廖委員先翔：我不只單指我們政府工程，其實整個臺灣工程界非常地亂，常常有包商倒來倒去，都是很常見的情況，包括工程完了不給錢、跑路等等的情況，所以在政府的公共工程裡面，我們當然一部分是希望品質要好，但是其實民眾對於政府的期待，也希望每一個為了我們國家建設的廠商都能夠得到它應有的報酬，這是民眾對我們公共工程的一個期待，不希望某個包商來幫政府做工程，結果它最後卻沒有拿到錢，這是我們不樂意見的情況。","在過去可能會有很多類似的情況，比如說大包中包還是哪個包，中間有一層跑路了等等的，導致最下游的廠商沒有拿到錢，這是過去常常有的一種情況，我知道工程會為了避免這樣的情況，我們有做一個監管契約的方式，對不對？下游廠商它真的有做事，我們希望它能夠拿到它應該拿到的錢，但是我們的監管契約在實務上好像也會遇到其他的問題，導致最下游應該要拿到錢的廠商拿不到錢，主委，你有發現怎樣的情況下廠商會拿不到錢嗎？就算有監管契約。"],["陳主任委員金德：我想這個分成兩個層次，第一個是主辦機關拖延付款給主承包商，那主承包商不付款給下包商，我想政府採購是機關跟承包商之間的問題，這個承包商除非說在契約裡面是聯合承攬或其他明確的關係，否則這個承包商跟它的下包之間，應該是屬於民法的關係啦！不過我們基於整個公共工程能夠如期如質，所以工程會也隨時可以接受這樣的反映，必要的時候會介入去協調或要求主辦機關要注意這樣的事情。"],["廖委員先翔：對，當然過去以來常常發生這樣子的事情，不只我們政府機關啦！誠如剛剛講的，為了避免小包拿不到錢，我們會有一個監管契約，當然我們的簽約主體就是某一家廠商，因為最大的廠商原則上比較不會跑，這是比較少見的情況，所以有監管契約，有時候可以直接跳過中間的廠商，直接把錢給下游的廠商，就是我們的得標機關直接給最下游的廠商，是這樣子的。","那目前又遇到了一個情況，因為這個監管契約畢竟它不是法律位階，它是我們私底下簽訂的一個契約而已，所以當法院有相關支付命令的時候，這個中間廠商，跑掉的那個廠商，有支付命令的一個法院來函的時候，其實上游廠商的法律位階是高於監管契約的，會導致下游廠商當初以為可能主辦機關出面了，工程會也出面說有一個監管契約，我們政府有保障，你不會因為中間的廠商跑掉導致你拿不到錢，因為它的簽約主體還是中間的中游廠商嘛！他不會因為中游廠商跑掉拿不到錢，我們以為事情就這樣單純啊！但是實際上包括我個人協調過的案件，中間中游跑掉的廠商，它因為被法院有支付命令在了，所以拿到支付命令的那一家債權人去跟你們的契約廠商拿，當然你們的廠商不可能付兩次錢嘛！對不對？你們只給廠商一次錢，廠商一定是優先給法院支付命令的啊！它怎麼可能先把錢給下游廠商？那遇到這樣子的問題，我不曉得有沒有機會透過公共工程採購法，一樣用法律的位階來保障所有為我們公共工程付出的每一個承攬的、可能比較下游的廠商？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員好。因為整個工程的實務上面，分包是常態，而且有可能層層的分包，這是營建的實務，那每一個廠商跟分包商之間，以及在跟下包商之間，權利義務非常複雜，有可能因為他們其他案件會牽連在一起，所以確實委員所講的沒有錯，我們目前這個監督付款的機制有它的極限。當然另外一個比較有效的是它要設立權利質權，但是因為程序比較複雜，也比較不容易執行，所以通常都是使用監督付款的機制。不過監督付款的機制畢竟還是屬於債權讓與的性質，所以它就必須跟法院的執行命令看誰跑得比較快，因為我們的契約沒有辦法去阻止法院的執行命令，所以這一塊確實也跟委員報告，是有困難。"],["廖委員先翔：我們有沒有辦法在法律上面……當然法律執行命令絕對是有一定的強度在。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：它優先，是。"],["廖委員先翔：但是它的優先順序，我們就常理來說，我來幫你做工程，結果你應該要給我的錢被支付命令拿走了，這件事情就常理來看，就是很不合理嘛！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["廖委員先翔：支付命令一定有它在法律上的一個位階，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趕快先編好嘛先編好 你們的心理是怎麼樣 為什麼4倍最後7.6倍是跟委員報告 其實是因為有一些制度上的改變了"},{"start":137.017,"end":154.213,"text":"你比如說像最主要是因為過去因為我們有訴願就是在訴願先行所以受處分的當事人可以先提起訴願那後來因為我們的整個法律修改過後對於我們的這個行政處分可以進行提起行政訴訟所以已經沒有所謂訴願先行的程序這是一個"},{"start":155.114,"end":182.148,"text":"那另外一個是因為你也知道我們那個黨軍軍退出媒體這個事情啊我們每一次啊那個碰到那個黨軍軍退出媒體啊我們都都雖然換照是換照但是都加上一些付款啊要求人家啊在下一次換照之前啊要要處理完黨黨軍軍退黨軍軍的這個這個股份不過你剛剛講的主要的第一個理由齁對其實就適用於其他機關啦其他機關沒有像你們這樣子搞的其他機關都必須要速速"},{"start":183.249,"end":204.77,"text":"訴訟的整個的一個費用這樣的去備徵,最後他用到哪裡去呢?我們那個感覺好奇怪喔,就是當年為了寬中天後面的訴訟國家隊啊,欸,這裡面的兩個意義就是說,其實我對於我的行政裁量的品質,我是沒有這麼有信心的,還是後面編一些律師費來擋一擋。"},{"start":206.531,"end":231.331,"text":"萬一我做的裁定被人家這個翻案的時候我們要去我第一個是沒有信心嘛所以你到底是不是濫罰後面勒那你被打臉幾次呢我覺得這個案子你到底要被打臉幾次才有那種快感呢就是我一個行政裁量已經經過你們內部NCC團隊覺得有問題然後給七位好不好專業的委員獨立公正的委員判斷判讀"},{"start":232.532,"end":257.191,"text":"你們是這個兵強馬壯的國家隊啊你們在採組的過程中有這麼多律師可以問你們比一個不管企業民眾你們強大多了所以在這種情況你們做出來一個行政的材料按照這個道理你要對自己非常有信心結果呢你們這樣的一個之後然後到了行政行政訴訟一半而一半之後哇討論一下"},{"start":258.132,"end":259.713,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":282.028,"end":299.554,"text":"已經這個敗訴的部分你們當時罰人家一千一百五十三萬就一千多萬精確數字你們大概自己去算那你們現在已經確定敗訴了退了多少現在還人家多少以中天案退了多少"},{"start":307.425,"end":314.65,"text":"目前還的多少?就我們半數確定是有5件我印象中好像應該是600多萬吧"},{"start":319.011,"end":341.529,"text":"我覺得NCC對我來講是真的非常離譜我也覺得很惡劣在這些不是光中天這個議題而是你一個行政機關你的思考性的一些問題你到底要怎麼樣去做這件事情兵牆馬狀的律師費對自己的裁決的品質不太信任第二個呢好嗎那你去衝嘛你去"},{"start":342.35,"end":369.911,"text":"大家互相告碼上訴碼那完之後你知道嗎過去10年過去10年我們司法的統計年報行政機關我這兵搶馬帳的團隊我可以諮詢律師做出來裁決尤其我們依法行政我對法律的賢熟對不對再一再我都比別人要強那麼多我們做出來裁決怎麼會出錯呢但是每一個機關都會多多少少會出錯"},{"start":371.55,"end":390.119,"text":"那歷年來過去將近10年我們看到平均的政府被告被提行政訴訟敗了7到14%你們就中天案我們整個去看不管你一個案子幾次你一直上訴我就給你算嘛敗一次敗兩次總共"},{"start":391.417,"end":416.354,"text":"你們42次你們給我的表你們現在敗了17次到底要敗到多少才開心因為總共在中間這一次上次不換照的時候總共是26件那目前的話我們目前是有5件是確定包括什麼營運計畫包括換照的一大堆的問題啦不光是裁罰的問題啦但是屬於內容財主部分是26件"},{"start":417.395,"end":442.574,"text":"所以你們對於你們這種敗訴力是很驕傲嘛因為我們講說不管你做什麼你在高等行政法院簡怡婷高等行政法院最高行政法院扯到中天的案子扯到中天的案子勝勝勝當然有一些遺案子你們持續上訴我就覺得很離譜啊一方面你們已經納入稅錄了已經繳交了你們稅務預算收到這些罰款繳交國庫了然後再拿出來賠別人"},{"start":447.278,"end":465.282,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":470.096,"end":478.044,"text":"你不要再講我時間不夠了再來你們是不是要成立NCC律師事務所多一個部門我沒意見"},{"start":489.443,"end":508.471,"text":"這麼多的案件從107年到現在為止你們所有的訴訟案件有一位律師因為我不見得覺得有問題啦就是你是不是有御用律師還是專任律師還是body body的兄弟我不清楚一個律師你們幾十個案件我來就好了我還沒算他的敗訴比率啊"},{"start":509.071,"end":527.287,"text":"你們這個整個的一個部分訴訟的這個部分我真的給你一個良心的建議這種訴訟的能量跟品質放在前面好不好放在你們NCC要做決定的那一刻開始把這些專家意見納在那裡不是在這後面浪費人民的預算"},{"start":528.508,"end":540.781,"text":"陳柱惟就這一部分的那個我這是給你建議啦像這樣的這種搞法的話陳柱惟因為我時間真的有限了齁那我這只是給你建議齁因為你昨天還是前天去了淘氣公司吧前天"},{"start":542.233,"end":571.459,"text":"我們特別秘書回來說他整個報告完畢了你講了一句話跟我心中講一下怎麼沒有報告PMS行價怎麼報告一大堆就這部分就是簡單一頁就過去了那現在一個情況是這樣我是希望你這一次的三個重點的施政正好是我要跟你說的你說列管重大公共工程這個你在昨天你也說這個是重大的工程"},{"start":572.159,"end":599.204,"text":"必定要如期如實完工。第二個你要健全採購制度這中間有很多採購第二個問題分包商到底可不可以再這樣去弄呢第三個履約爭議的調節的品質那現在進度嚴重落後分包商現在變成說這個系統廠商是李立但他們還在爭議嘛所以又有人提一個方案說好吧組織圖改一下呃陳韻"},{"start":602.045,"end":613.512,"text":"李毓把公研院掛在這下面公研院是之前一起投標的另外一家廠商的系統廠商這個釋法性如何你們去研究最後一個我想這樣的"},{"start":615.915,"end":642.004,"text":"自駕系統的細設文件連現在廠商都沒確定分包商因為也沒有簽可是你知道嗎NTP加271天11月14號到期了已經到期了是幹嘛哪個階段呢PMS航廈電巴系統這個廠商要把各個分包商的細部設計全部送完所以你有沒有一個大問號"},{"start":644.145,"end":672.956,"text":"你們那個系統廠商都還沒喬定啊是姓張還是姓李不知道怎麼系統的系社文件這家系統系統送了欸不能亂搞惡劣到這種程度啊就隨便寫下送囉倒了也成功送了裡面出資萬兆亂七八糟誰做都不知道但沒關係我送了我送了就算省不過沒有關係再說我是覺得這些東西你都要關心一下"},{"start":674.721,"end":700.75,"text":"因為西部設計現在全部送完了那你知道嗎?初步的審查什麼?出資濫造文件的數量、品質可以講非常低落,要求他重寫所以我是覺得這可以納入你們在思考的過程中問題是你看到1月1號1月1號,剩一個多月要測試限控系統,那是系統的"},{"start":702.148,"end":727.015,"text":"這是國家重大就讓你再這樣這個這個然後再來3月1號要自駕測試你覺得他這個可以如期如質完工嗎?報告委因為第三航廈T3是一個重要的國家建設那過去機場被批評說不如外國的機場所以我們希望透過第三航廈的改建來扭轉這樣的形象提高服務的品質"},{"start":727.995,"end":752.129,"text":"那關於試駕的部分關鍵在細色所以如果細色沒有通過不會有測試不會有那些問題那我想我已經要求淘氣公司或交通部啊兩個原則第一個必須依法來妥善處理這個採購案第二個呢要衡量將來機場的服務品質是否能夠符合民眾的需求跟期待"},{"start":754.011,"end":776.105,"text":"好,那最後就這兩句話拜託你齁你真的要進去協助啦因為昨天你去特別他也沒跟你報告PMS到底有什麼需要你協助的事項只是說誒陳昱可能會去跟你有什麼有什麼這個要一一要處理啊要請你們協調啊我就覺得好可怕欸現在距離1月1號剩幾天而已現在連系統誰做"},{"start":777.586,"end":777.806,"text":"主管通訊傳播委員會主管"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時23分）謝謝主席，我們直接請……今天NCC是派誰來？"],["主席：請黃主秘。"],["魯委員明哲：黃主秘是不是？好，工程會的陳主委跟NCC的黃主秘，兩位一起來好了。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["魯委員明哲：我第一個問題真的要跟NCC請教，NCC新的代理主委大概3、4天之後才會上任，但是因為今天審到你們一個預算，很多的坊間、媒體早就提過這個問題，事實上我們也一直在關注這個問題，就是針對NCC整體的訴訟費，訴訟費不是我們委員在講，也不是媒體在講，你們自己從107年、108年、109年，你們覺得一個正常的機關，大概你們3年編的都150萬，150萬覺得夠用，結果到110年開始發生了中天拒換照，不給它換照這件事情發生之後，你們每一年的預算跳了4倍，到112年變成1,140萬，雖然到最後沒用這麼多，可是你們編預算的雄心壯志我們看出來了。","像這樣子編預算，我突然覺得很奇怪，你不是一般的公司，你是政府機關，政府機關要去打官司的機會其實也沒有那麼多啦！是不是對這個機關的獨立、專業、公平性的NCC委員所做出來的行政裁決、裁處很沒有信心，所以後面還要救火隊？主秘，這個我看說哎喲！我們做出來的問題很多，趕快先編好嘛！你們的心裡是怎麼樣？為什麼4倍，最後7.6倍？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：其實是因為制度上有一些改變，最主要是過去我們有訴願，就是在訴願先行嘛！所以受處分的當事人可以先提起訴願，後來因為整個法律修改過後，對於我們的行政處分可以逕行提起行政訴訟，所以已經沒有所謂的訴願先行程序，這是一個。另外一個，因為你也知道黨政軍退出媒體這件事情，我們每一次碰到黨政軍退出媒體，雖然換照是換照，但是都加上一些附款，要求人家在下一次換照之前要處理完黨政軍的股份。"],["魯委員明哲：不過你剛剛講的主要的第一個理由，其實就適用於其他機關，其他機關沒有像你們這樣子搞的。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：其他機關都必須要……"],["魯委員明哲：訴訟的整個費用這樣子去倍增，最後它用到哪裡去呢？我們感覺好奇怪哦！當年為了關中天，後面的訴訟國家隊，這裡面的兩個意義就是說，其實我對於我的行政裁量品質是沒有這麼有信心的，還是後面編一些律師費來擋一擋，萬一我做的裁定被人家翻案的時候，我們要去處理，我第一個是沒有信心嘛！所以你到底是不是濫罰？你要被打臉幾次呢？我覺得這個案子你到底要被打臉幾次才有那種快感呢？我一個行政裁量已經經過了你們內部NCC團隊覺得有問題，然後給7位專業的委員，獨立公正的委員判斷、判讀，你們是兵強馬壯的國家隊耶！你們在裁處的過程中有這麼多律師可以問，你們比一個不管企業或民眾，你們強大多了，所以在這種情況，你們做出來一個行政裁量，按照對的道理，你要對自己非常有信心，結果你們這樣的一個流程之後，然後到了行政訴訟，一半是哇！討論一下，自己做錯了一次裁量還不夠，第二次再上訴又被打一巴掌，有些搞了好幾次的，我真的不知道你們針對已經很明顯，連法官都告訴你這樣子搞不行的情況，你們怎麼樣去做。","再來，請教你第二個問題，針對已經敗訴的部分，你們當時罰人家1,153萬，就是一千多萬，精確數字你們自己去算，那你們現在已經確定敗訴的，退了多少？現在還人家多少？以中天來說，退了多少？目前還了多少？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們敗訴確定是有5件，我印象中好像應該是六百多萬吧！"],["魯委員明哲：好，我覺得NCC對我來講真的是非常離譜，我也覺得很惡劣，不是光中天這個議題，而是一個行政機關你的思考性的一些問題，你到底要怎麼樣去做這件事情，編強大的、兵強馬壯的律師費，對自己的裁決品質不太信任。","第二個，好吧！那你去衝嘛！大家互相告嘛！上訴嘛！弄完之後，你知道嗎？過去10年，根據我們司法統計年報，行政機關我這麼兵強馬壯的團隊，我可以諮詢律師做出裁決，尤其我們依法行政，我對法律的嫻熟，對不對？在在我都比別人要強那麼多，我們做出來的裁決怎麼會出錯呢？但是每一個機關多多少少會有一些出錯，那歷年來，過去將近10年，我們看到政府被告，被提行政訴訟敗的，平均7到14%。就中天案我們整個去看，不管你一個案子幾次，你一直上訴我就給你算嘛！敗1次、敗2次，總共啊！你們42次，根據你們給我的表，你們現在敗了17次……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我想那個是在訴訟上的攻防。"],["魯委員明哲：到底要敗到多少才開心咧？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，在中天這一次，上次不換照的時候總共是26件，那目前的話，我們目前有5件是確定的。"],["魯委員明哲：包括什麼營運計畫，包括換照的，一大堆的問題，不光是裁罰的問題啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不，那不是，那個是內容裁處部分，屬於內容裁處部分是26件，其他的話……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你們對於這種敗訴率是很驕傲嘛？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，目前……"],["魯委員明哲：因為我們講說不管你做什麼，你在高等行政法院、簡易庭，高等行政法院、最高行政法院，扯到中天的案子勝、勝、勝，當然有一些案子你們持續上訴，我就覺得很離譜啊！一方面你們已經納入歲入了，已經繳交了你們歲入的預算，收到這些罰款繳交國庫了，然後再拿出來賠別人！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是、不是，不是這樣子，不是這樣子。"],["魯委員明哲：不是啊！你敗訴了，你剛剛講說要不要還給別人？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：要還給別人，我們拿出一部分。"],["魯委員明哲：對，要還給別人，另外一方面又編了這麼高的訴訟費用，所以我覺得你們心態是很惡劣的。時間稍微暫停，我的螢幕不見了。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告……"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！你不要再講，我時間不夠了。再來，你們是不是要成立NCC律師事務所？多一個部門，我沒意見啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：沒意見啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：這麼多的案件，從107年到現在為止，你們所有的訴訟案件，有一位律師，因為我不見得覺得有問題啦！就是你是不是有御用律師，還是專任律師，還是buddy-buddy的兄弟，我不清楚，一個律師你們幾十個案件……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，我們是依照他的專業來聘請。"],["魯委員明哲：我來就好了，我還沒算他的敗訴比率啊！你們整個訴訟的部分，我真的給你一個良心的建議，這種訴訟的能量跟品質，放在前面好不好？放在你們NCC要做決定的那一刻開始，把這些專家的意見納在那裡，不是在後面浪費人民的預算啊！","陳主委。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，瞭解，就這一部分的……"],["魯委員明哲：我真的是給你建議啦！像這種搞法的話。陳主委，因為我時間真的有限，我這邊只是給你建議。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：因為你昨天還是前天去了桃機公司嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：前天。"],["魯委員明哲：那我們秘書有特別回來說，他整個報告完畢了，你講一句話跟我心中講的一樣，欸！怎麼沒有報告PMS航廈？他報告一大堆，就這一部分就是簡單一頁就過去了。","現在有一個情況是這樣，我真的希望你這一次三個重點的施政，正好是我要跟你說的，你說列管重大公共工程，你前天也說這個是重大的工程，必定要如期如質完工。第二個，你要健全採購制度，這中間有很多採購，分包商到底可不可以再這樣去弄呢？第三個，履約爭議的調解品質，因為目前進度嚴重落後，分包商現在變成系統廠商是理立，但他們還在爭議嘛！所以又有人提一個方案，說好吧！組織圖改一下，成運、理立，然後把工研院掛在這下面，那工研院是之前一起投標的另外一家廠商的系統廠商，這個適法性如何，你們去研究。","最後一個，你自駕系統的細設文件，現在連廠商都沒確定，分包商因為沒有簽，可是你知道嗎？NTP加270天，11月14日到期了，已經到期了，是幹嘛？哪個階段呢？PMS航廈電巴系統這個廠商要把各個分包商的細部設計全部送完，所以你有沒有一個大問號？哎喲！你們那個系統廠商都還沒喬定啊！是姓張還是姓李不知道，怎麼系統的細設文件，自駕系統細設文件送了欸！我覺得不能亂搞，惡劣到這種程度啊！結果隨便寫一下，送囉！盜壘成功，送了，裡面粗製濫造，亂七八糟，誰做都不知道！但沒關係我送了，我送了就算，審不過沒有關係，再說。","我是覺得這些東西你都要關心一下，主委，因為細部設計現在全部送完了，那你知道嗎，初步的審查是什麼？粗製濫造，文件的數量、品質可以講非常低落，要求它重寫，所以我是覺得這可以納入在你們思考的過程中。問題是你看到1月1日，剩一個多月要測試線控系統，那是系統，這是國家重大工程，就像你在機場所說的，然後再來，3月1日要自駕測試，你覺得它可以如期如質完工嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，因為第三航廈，T3是一個重要的國家建設，過去機場被批評說不如外國的機場，所以我們希望透過第三航廈的改建來扭轉這樣的形象，提高服務的品質。關於自駕的部分，關鍵在細設，所以如果細設沒有通過，不會有測試，不會有那些問題。我已經要求桃機公司或交通部兩個原則，第一個，必須依法來妥善處理這個採購案。第二個，要衡量將來機場的服務品質是否能夠符合民眾的需求和期待。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我最後就這兩句話，拜託你，你真的要進去協助啦！因為前天你去，他也沒跟你報告PMS到底有什麼需要你協助的事項，只是說成運可能會有什麼異議要處理，要請你們協調，我就覺得好可怕欸！現在距離1月1日剩幾天而已，現在連系統誰做，你知道嗎？他們的合約還講說，當時弄得很開心，不光是做二、三航廈的電巴，未來還保留擴充到一航廈的，我拜託一下，你務必再關心一下他們實體的進度，能夠合法如期完工，這是我們的願望，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委的質詢。","接下來邀請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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有領取我想基於監督原則我們就要覺得說你們應該要提供名單不管是給立法院也好還是給誰也好你說不提供的話那我們怎麼知道你怎麼拼你拼用標準我們按照諮詢公開該公開一定公開各自保護要保護一定保護"},{"start":520.518,"end":536.434,"text":"你如果已經領了有領國家的薪水有領國家的資源那怎麼會受各自的保護?各自保護不會因為領出席費或相關費用而必須公開違反各自保護我想這個沒有這樣的例外原則"},{"start":537.546,"end":561.509,"text":"我想在這個同樣的準則裡面既然諮詢委員跟這個評議委、審議委員都在同一條法律裡面那沒有道理吧你今天你評議的你決定結果的人是不同的法律一個是資訊公開所以這個申訴委我們就依法公開各自保護的是諮詢委員他我們無權代他公開他領多少錢什麼案件這個我們都無權替他公開"},{"start":563.018,"end":585.832,"text":"如果今天啊他們是純粹真的單純諮詢也沒有領任何的費用不管什麼兩萬三萬幾千塊那個都他們都不領純粹諮詢的話那當然我認為他的確可以不用公開諮詢當然要領出席費啊那你今天他既然有領出席費那你又可以這樣子拼他因為他沒有上限啊他也沒有什麼法定的要件啊當然有上限這個是行之有年不是我就任才有的"},{"start":588.717,"end":601.166,"text":"我今天要講的是說今天既然有領這個薪水有領這個錢那為什麼資訊委員不能展開我跟委員報告他有沒有領出席會並不是說就可以違背這個各自保護法的規定"},{"start":604.71,"end":621.847,"text":"我想這樣啦,主委,如果你這麼堅持的話,那反正等一下林執行會來處理啦因為我認為,既然你有這個領國家的公帑而且在這同樣的申訴,一樣在這個採購申訴審議委會的組織準則裡面都有相關的這個法令我跟委員報告"},{"start":622.828,"end":645.977,"text":"申訴委員是調解理業爭議他是提出這個調解的建議他並不是說判定哪一個廠商隊還是機關隊這個調解建議還是雙方都能夠同意才成立他只是一個調解建議那因為有時候在進行調解的時候需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與所以才有聘請諮詢委員"},{"start":649.915,"end":667.586,"text":"如果按照這個組織準則裡面其實裡面並沒有特別提到我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條因為像比如說紳士會委員諮詢會委員他居然無己職但得依規定來自己接受他是放在同一個12條裡面去討論的吧我跟委員報告各自保護是法律那組織準則是我們工程會裡面的內規"},{"start":668.632,"end":686.281,"text":"跟委員補充一下,包括我們的申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開,所以我們沒有做不同的處理這是兩件一件事情,我沒有說要公開他的薪資,我要的是說第一件事情就是這個諮詢委員哪些人會被諮詢,就是你在背後提供意見,因為你現在是有問題,我來問諮詢委員,然後"},{"start":689.543,"end":717.794,"text":"給出意見之後那送到這個審議裡面去調解嗎?是不是這樣子?邏輯上是不是這樣走?不是,申訴委員進行理業正義調解的時候分成兩部分第一部分我們會指定申訴委員做預審這個預審大概二到三名有工程的有法律的或者是會計等等所以有時候不只是土木工程有時候化工工程有其他工程所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢他會參與預審甚至協助擬定調解建立的草案"},{"start":719.811,"end":746.639,"text":"對啊,我是說,好沒關係,主席站起來了,我待會我們臨時提案繼續討論提供意見的人,如果他不用公開的話,那我想對於業者或對於來調解的人,對於來申訴的人,他會覺得沒有安全感嘛因為你既然你的審議委員是有公開的,是有官方公開的名冊,很知道說哪些人會參與審議而且這些調解界,將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同做決定好,沒關係,主委我們等一下繼續討論,謝謝"},{"start":749.335,"end":749.357,"text":"審查"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時45分）主席謝謝。先請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["黃委員健豪：主委早。主委，我想你也清楚我要問什麼，這跟我待會的臨時提案有關係。工程會有所謂的政府採購法，有採購申訴審議委員會，主要當然就是如果公共工程的履約廠商對於相關事情有疑義的時候，申訴委員會能夠來處理。第一件事情想請教主委，在採購申訴審議委員會的委員名單裡面，今年，就在今年而已，5月的時候，不管是黃國昌委員還是游顥委員都提過，你們的委員裡面有一位王敬堯律師，他擔任工程會採購申訴委員會委員的時候，有涉嫌浮報工時詐領國防部法律意見的費用，當時已經是陳主委了，陳主委就說，你也不能接受這樣的事情，要暫停……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是我說的。"],["黃委員健豪：你答詢的時候有說啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：我沒有說不能接受，我是說我們已經立即暫停他受理任何申訴案件。"],["黃委員健豪：他暫停之後，為什麼現在、此刻你們的官網上面還有這一位王大律師？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為他的申訴委員有任期。"],["黃委員健豪：然後呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：他發生的事情是在擔任申訴委員之前，我們有向國防部函詢，國防部也沒有證實任何媒體所報導的事情，所以我們折衷的處理方式就是沒有派任何案給他擔任相關的調解委員。"],["黃委員健豪：所以主委的意思是，現在雖然名單上面有這個人，但是實務上面都沒有再派案給他了？"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：明年會繼續派嗎？還是要看國防部的回應？"],["陳主任委員金德：任期結束後我們會做適當處理。"],["黃委員健豪：任期是多久一次？"],["陳主任委員金德：任期到明年大概4月、5月。"],["黃委員健豪：所以他今年第一次提出來的時候是剛聘的時候，是不是這個意思？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，我上任之前，他就已經是申訴委員了。"],["黃委員健豪：任期到明年4月、5月？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["黃委員健豪：另外一個事情是最近新聘的，部分媒體有報導，我想主委也很清楚，我想就教一下主委，像孔大律師他在業界也非常有名，過去也承辦非常多關於公共工程的申訴案件，之前是打官司嘛！現在主委把他聘請來擔任申訴審議委員會委員的話，會不會擔心他成為公共工程委員會跟廠商之間在調解時候的障礙？"],["陳主任委員金德：孔律師在律師界備受敬重。"],["黃委員健豪：是，沒錯。"],["陳主任委員金德：他是全國律師聯合會公共工程委員會主任委員……"],["黃委員健豪：這個我們知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：同時也是中華民國仲裁協會的理事……"],["黃委員健豪：主委，我們當然知道他是很重要的律師，我剛才提到他是業界非常有名也受人敬重的律師。"],["陳主任委員金德：非常受敬重的律師。"],["黃委員健豪：今天的問題是，你聘他來當申訴委員會的委員，他如果遇到以前的客戶跟工程會之間有調解的時候，他的立場怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會的申訴法規裡面有迴避原則，律師也有倫理的規定，所以一有不適當的，應迴避就會迴避。"],["黃委員健豪：所以主委，你可以確認每一次的申訴裡面，名單上的這些委員跟他在業界裡所接觸到的廠商不會有利益迴避的問題嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們在選擇調解的時候，當事人都會問有沒有需要迴避的？不只廠商，如果相對的過去打官司的法院等等也需要迴避，他都需要迴避。"],["黃委員健豪：好，再來，既然你確認這件事情，我們希望這個還是能夠確實來執行，因為關於迴避，第十三條裡面當然有一些具體的項目，但是我想業界或是爆料者會拿出來講的原因就是因為，比如說律師本身在業界非常有名，我想他的影響力也非常大，如果你今天聘他來當審議委員，在調解的過程裡面，或許他迴避了，但是說實話，這麼久了，你也很清楚，他自己就在迴避了，但他會不會有實質影響其他委員的實力呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，孔律師不會只接乙方的案，就是承包商的案，他大部分是接政府的案，在交通部高鐵局裡面，過去曾經委託孔律師有三十幾件的訴訟案……"],["黃委員健豪：有，這個採購網站都有查到，我知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：非訟案件兩百多件，所以你指責或者是影射孔律師不適任，我想這不太公平。"],["黃委員健豪：我沒有指責喔！我是要問主委，你今天去聘用審議委員的原則是什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟你報告，我們根據採購申訴審議委員會組織準則，他必須是專業的，包括曾任法官、檢察官、律師或學者，或者是工程方面的學者，有一定的標準。"],["黃委員健豪：我今天沒有指責任何人，我也不是直接指控這一位，我要說的是，今天大家期待的申訴審議委員會理論上應該相對是比較中立的，這是大家的期待。"],["陳主任委員金德：要專業、有實務經驗。"],["黃委員健豪：專業跟中立，中立也很重要啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：他當然是中立。"],["黃委員健豪：所以我才問，為什麼今天特別要聘這樣一個知名律師？因為過去他既然在業界有很多的案子，有很多跟政府打交道的經驗……"],["陳主任委員金德：剛才跟你說明了，他接政府的案子更多。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道啊！如果他參加審議委員會的話，到底他的立場……"],["陳主任委員金德：他是在捍衛政府的權利……"],["黃委員健豪：他遇到爭議的時候，他到底是站在……照主委的意思的話，他到底是站在政府的立場來做事情，還是站在業界的立場做事情，還是站在中立的立場做事情？"],["陳主任委員金德：他沒有任何立場，他如果申訴委員的調解，他就是該迴避的迴避，其他就是秉公處理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委，我時間不夠，當然我希望你能夠堅持利益迴避的問題。最後，採購申訴審議委員會裡面有所謂的一般委員跟諮詢委員，諮詢委員目前是沒有人數限制，目前有64人，是吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：60到70人，64人。"],["黃委員健豪：在我跟工程會詢問資料的時候，你們說，因為諮詢委員涉及個資，所以不便提供。我想問一下，同樣地，不管是一般的審議委員，就是剛剛提到的審議委員也好，還是諮詢委員也好，他們都有依規定來支給兼職酬勞，審議委員最高上限是3萬元，每位諮詢委員上限是2萬元，既然不論3萬元或2萬元都有領所謂的兼職酬勞的話，為什麼諮詢委員是屬於個資不能提供的？"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，申訴委員是當廠商要求調解的時候，他可以建議申訴委員，所以申訴委員依法律規定必須公開，我們依法公開。至於諮詢委員，他是接受諮詢，他並不是參與大會調解的委員，所以按照個資法，我們無權公開。"],["黃委員健豪：個資法哪一條啊？對不起，主委，我想知道……"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委跟你說明。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：委員好。剛剛主委大概有說明了，因為個資法第十六條如果要公開，要做目的外的使用，它有一些要件，各個要件要去搭配，如果沒有符合要件就去公開，尤其是由公務員公開的話，那麼刑責可能會加重。所以對我們來講，因為諮委基本上只是一個資料庫，當時我們去徵詢他們的時候，也沒有跟他們詢問要不要讓我們公開，所以我們現在無權去把他們公開。"],["黃委員健豪：我想這樣啦！主委、副主委，像審議委員當然有領所謂的車馬費或是兼任的酬勞，今天諮詢委員同樣也有領取公帑，既然有領取，基於監督原則，我們就覺得你們應該要提供名單，不管是給立法院也好，還是給誰也好，不然你不提供的話，我們怎麼知道你的聘用標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們按照資訊公開，該公開的就一定公開；按照個資保護，要保護的一定保護。"],["黃委員健豪：如果已經有領國家的薪水、有領國家的資源，怎麼會受個資法保護呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：個資保護不會因為有領出席費或是相關費用而必須公開，這樣會違反個資保護，我想沒有這樣的例外原則。"],["黃委員健豪：我想在同樣的準則裡面，既然諮詢委員跟審議委員都在同一條法律裡面，沒有道理今天評議的人、決定結果的人……"],["陳主任委員金德：是不同的法律，一個是資訊公開，所以申訴委員我們就依法公開，而個資保護的是諮詢委員，我們無權代他公開，他領多少錢、什麼案件，這個我們都無權替他公開。"],["黃委員健豪：如果今天他們是純粹、真的單純諮詢，也沒有要領任何的費用，不管什麼兩萬、三萬、幾千塊，他們都不領，純粹諮詢的話，當然我認為他的確可以不用公開，但是今天既然……"],["陳主任委員金德：諮詢當然有領出席費。"],["黃委員健豪：他既然有領出席費，你又可以這樣子聘，因為他的人數沒有上限，也沒有什麼法令的要件。"],["陳主任委員金德：當然有上限，這是行之有年，不是我就任才有的。"],["黃委員健豪：我今天要講的是，今天既然有領這個薪水、有領這個錢，為什麼諮詢委員不能公開？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，他有沒有領出席費，並不是就可以違背個資保護法的規定。"],["黃委員健豪：我想這樣，主委，如果你這麼堅持的話，反正等一下臨時提案會來處理。因為我認為既然你有領國家的公帑，而且在採購申訴審議委員會組織準則裡面都有相關法令……"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，有關申訴委員的調解履約爭議，他是提出調解的建議，並不是判定廠商對還是機關對，這個調解建議還是要雙方都同意才成立，他只是提出調解建議。有時候在進行調解需要工程方面或法律方面的專業人參與，所以才有聘請諮詢委員。"],["黃委員健豪：如果按照這個組織準則，其實裡面並沒有特別提到，我剛剛一直聽到說你要依照哪一條，像是「申訴會委員、諮詢委員均為無給職。但得依規定支給兼職酬勞。」這是放在同一條、第十二條裡面去討論的。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，個資保護是法律，組織準則是工程會裡面的內規。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員補充一下，包括申訴委員的薪資也沒有公開，所以我們沒有做不同的處理。"],["黃委員健豪：這是兩件事情，我沒有說要公開他的薪資。我要的是，第一件事情就是諮詢委員是哪些人會被諮詢？因為他是在背後提供意見，今天是有問題來問諮詢委員，委員給出意見之後，再送到審議會裡面去調解，是不是這樣子？邏輯上是不是這樣走？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，申訴委員進行履約爭議調解的時候分成兩部分，第一部分我們會指定申訴委員預審，這個預審大概二到三名，有工程的、有法律的或是會計等等，有時候不只是土木工程，也有化工工程或其他工程，所以請相關的人來擔任諮詢，他會參與預審，甚至協助擬定調解建議的草案。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊，我是說……沒關係，主席站起來了，待會我們臨時提案繼續討論。提供意見的人，如果他不用公開的話，我想對於業者或對於來調解的人、來申訴的人，他會覺得沒有安全感，因為審議委員是有官方公開的名冊，可以知道哪些人會參與審議，但沒有人知道諮詢委員耶！"],["陳主任委員金德：而且這些調解爭議將來要大會所有的申訴委員共同決定。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，主委，我們等一下繼續討論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員發言。","我們現在先進行臨時提案之處理，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","行政院公共工程委員會（以下簡稱工程會）下設採購申訴審議委員會（以下簡稱申訴會）就機關與廠商間採購爭議受理申訴與調解案，《採購申訴審議委員會組織準則》明定申訴會置委員7人至35人，申訴會委員名單經工程會公開於工程會網站可供查詢，然而申訴會除申訴會委員外，依照前開申訴會組織準則，主管機關及直轄市、縣（市）政府得視業務需要，遴聘學者、專家為申訴會諮詢委員，提供個案諮詢意見供調解委員參考，或依委員指示整理、撰擬建議草本，以利後續辦理提送委員大會審議。諮詢委員無人數限制，目前有64人。工程會並以涉及個資問題為由不便對外公開申訴會諮詢委員名單。","經查申訴會組織準則並無明文規定諮詢委員不得公開之情事，其名單之公開亦非屬《政府資訊公開法》應限制公開或不予提供之情形，為維護政府資訊公開制度，保障人民知的權利，工程會應於1週內公開申訴會諮詢委員名單，不應以個資問題遮掩。","提案人：黃健豪　　魯明哲　　廖先翔","二、","行政院公共工程委員會（以下簡稱工程會）下設採購申訴審議委員會（以下簡稱申訴會）就機關與廠商間採購爭議受理申訴與調解案。《採購申訴審議委員會組織準則》明訂申訴會置委員7人至35人，另主管機關及直轄市、縣（市）政府得視業務需要，遴聘學者、專家為申訴會諮詢委員，提供個案諮詢意見供調解委員參考，或依委員指示整理、撰擬建議草本，以利後續辦理提送委員大會審議。諮詢委員無人數限制，目前有64人。","經查，申訴會組織準則明文規定「申訴會委員及諮詢委員均為無給職，但得依規定支給兼職酬勞」，兼職酬勞含出席費及審查費，每年度工程會公務預算均編列申訴會委員出席費及審查費經費，114年編列20,470千元，立法委員有審查行政機關預算之職責，工程會公務預算編列委員出席費及審查費細目為何，工程會均負有提供之義務。爰要求工程會應於1週內提供申訴會委員及諮詢委員實際參與案件審查之內容，含參與委員、案件名及兼職酬勞明細提供本院交通委員會委員。","提案人：黃健豪　　魯明哲　　廖先翔"],["主席：請問各位委員及行政單位有無意見？行政單位要不要先說明？請副主委。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：主席以及各位委員，大家好。很感謝委員提出這樣的提案，可能要跟委員報告一下我們面臨的問題。","這個剛剛有跟委員稍微解釋過了，因為我們的申訴委員是相當於訴願會的組織，因為訴願會有對外公開，所以我們這個申訴委員的部分也必須公開，況且因為我們的機制是爭議兩造可以事先來建議申訴委員，所以我們就申訴委員的部分在一開始徵詢的時候就有請求他們公開，所以那一部分我們公開沒有問題。有關諮詢委員的部分，因為他等於是我們的一個資料庫，諮詢委員的工作基本上並沒有直接去決定調解建議的內容，他基本上只是協助委員，幫忙整理一些爭點以及委員的意見，他最後得出來的意見或是整理出來的意見必須交給申訴委員，並不是他可以自己決定的，那麼也是基於這樣的一個理由，我們並沒有要求諮詢委員的資訊必須公開。","現在如果依照這個提案，要求我們予以公開，尤其是包括他的案件跟兼職的酬勞，因為案件本身又牽涉到廠商，有的廠商事實上不希望它的爭議案件被公開，這可能就會陷我們違反個人資料保護法第十六條，因為我們當時蒐集這些諮委的名單是供我們內部去指派委員所用，如果我們要提供給貴院，那麼可能就會變成是特定目的外的使用。特定目的外的使用，依照個人資料保護法第十六條，它必須符合七款的情況之一，我們看本案的情形似乎都不符合個資法例外公開的規定，所以這個對我們來講可能會有一點窒礙難行，如果我們強行公開，可能會陷我們被個資擁有者索求，甚至我們可能因為公務員身分，也必須負擔相關的刑事責任，所以這一部分還請委員諒察。如果委員有比較具體的個案，也許可以提供給我們，我們逕行去調查、查處，再跟委員報告，是不是可以用這種方式？以上報告，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝副主委的說明，請問提案委員黃健豪委員，是不是可以接受剛剛陳副主委的建議？"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝主席。這是兩個案子，第一個案子，我先講，不是針對個案，我沒有什麼個案要跟各位反映，純粹就針對政府資訊公開法的部分提出一些建議跟想法。第一個，當然，還是回到那個問題，就是諮詢委員，今天我們要他公布諮詢委員的原因，就是在於他用涉及個資的問題來當作理由說不能對外公開，但是我覺得這個理由有點牽強，因為在政府資訊公開法裡面，它有規定限制公開或不予提供的狀況，所以依照這個狀況來講，看起來沒有，因為這是公共利益嘛，它是針對跟政府採購有關的，並不是只有私權的爭議，它是進行政府採購，跟政府機關有疑義發生的時候才需要做這件事情。所以我認為第一個提案是要公開所謂的申訴委員會名單，這樣我們才能知道他怎麼樣聘用，聘用哪些人？是不是具有相關專業？我想這應該是監督的一個基本環節，這是第一件事情。","第二案，當然，兼職酬勞明細、案件名稱等等，如果涉及到廠商的部分，的確不一定要按照原文提案來做，但是我覺得還是要有基本的審議標準，要不然我們不知道一年2,000萬的錢到底是給了哪些人花了去？基於什麼原因？加上工程會在昨天回復的報告裡面有講說，關於申訴的過程，不用寫原因只要寫結論，所以我覺得編列這樣的錢進去，立法院完全看不到，也不知道這筆錢到底給了哪些人，基於什麼原因給他，我覺得這還是不太合理的，所以我認為，當然，案件跟酬勞明細的確可以省略，但是你不能完全空白，空白授權說我要2,000萬，工程會愛怎麼發就怎麼發，以上。"],["主席：好，請副主委再說明。"],["魯委員明哲：在原位說明，好不好？有麥克風。"],["主席：好，請副主委說明。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：不好意思，跟委員報告，事實上並沒有媒體所報導的，我們有委員要求調解建議不要附理由，他事實上是在舉例說，譬如法院的調解、鄉鎮公所的調解，甚至勞動的調解，他們基本上都不會附理由，只有結果。他希望我們工程會的調解理由能夠簡單一點，因為我們通常寫得非常長，通常寫得比判決書還長，那麼也有接收到各界的反映，但是因為當時在討論的時候，他有點是個人的意見，所以我們從頭到尾都還是維持現在調解建議書還是要附具理由，而且還附具相當詳盡的理由，這一點還是跟委員說明一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請陳主委說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟幾位委員報告，工程會的申訴委員會處理履約爭議，案件非常多，過去備受反映的意見是認為，每個案件的處理提出調解建議的時間太長，太長是因為整個調解的過程有一點類似法院的審理或者是判決，所以處理的時間會很長，案件很多，每個委員擔負的案件非常多，我們要改善那種處理的時效，所以必須增加人手或聘請諮詢委員來協助預審，甚至擬具調解建議，讓整個調解的過程能夠縮短，讓它時效加快，否則一個案子如果拖個一年、兩年，有些廠商的押標金押在那裡，可能會倒，所以時效非常重要，所以我們讓諮詢委員來協助預審、來整理這些意見，這是考量之一。另外，剛才副主委也說了，法院的調解建議也沒有提出理由書，所以我們在這兩方面的考量，目的是為了改善目前整個調解的時效。"],["主席：好，我們在場委員還有沒有其他意見？好，林俊憲委員。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主席、各位同仁。現在工程會的諮詢委員總表是有公布，你剛提的是這樣？64個人，名單有沒有公布？沒有公布嘛，就是說這個諮詢委員是在幫你們預審一些案件，剛剛主委的答復是這樣，是不是這樣？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員……"],["林委員俊憲：那他會不會……"],["陳副主任委員為祥：他不是幫我們預審，他是幫我們的申訴委員……"],["林委員俊憲：對，就申訴委員會嘛，然後他的報告再送給申訴委員會嘛。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：通常他也不會自己寫意見，他只是提供意見而已，是由申訴委員……"],["林委員俊憲：申訴委員來做最後的裁決嘛。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["林委員俊憲：申訴人申訴的對象一定是公部門嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：對，因為這是政府採購……"],["林委員俊憲：政府採購法裡面……"],["陳副主任委員為祥：一定是一造廠商和一造機關。"],["林委員俊憲：如果你這樣公布，你剛說的最大的問題是什麼？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：如果是……"],["林委員俊憲：不只是個資啦，就是說這個你公布以後，諮詢委員會不會受到壓力？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：這當然也是我們的考量之一。"],["林委員俊憲：對嘛，假設我是申訴人，我去找申訴委員，跟他說：「你幫我寫好聽一點」。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：申訴委員我們是有公開，諮詢的部分是沒有……"],["林委員俊憲：諮詢委員啦，說錯了。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：有點像是我們的專家資料庫……"],["林委員俊憲：諮詢委員在事先做預審工作的時候，會不會受到一些人情上或者是有一些壓力的問題？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我們基本上是希望維持一個比較公正的環境讓委員去處理，所以我們會比較希望不要有外界太多的干擾。"],["林委員俊憲：我覺得這個一體兩面啦，就是說最後還是申訴委員會在決定嘛，諮詢委員等於做一些類似幕僚的工作。主席，我是覺得這個部分，我還是尊重主管機關的立場，如果事先公布會不會產生人情上，或者是一些壓力上的問題？因為申訴的廠商就會去找這些委員，看能不能幫忙，會不會有這種狀況？各有利弊，本席是建議尊重主管機關工程會的意見，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝林俊憲委員。","請魯明哲召委。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝召委，針對這個提案，其實我個人的想法是申訴委員會在諮詢委員的部分，因為政府責任政治，你們對於每一個案子都要負責任，對不對？每一個結果也要負責任，關於諮詢委員我想知道的是，64位諮詢委員假設遇到了一個申訴案件，假設我選了3個，有3個委員作為這個案子的諮詢，譬如說機捷好了，對於這個案子的諮詢委員是一直不變，還是每一次會議會隨便從64個來挑？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：原則上派的諮委是同一個人。"],["魯委員明哲：對嘛，固定的嘛，所以針對是固定的這個部分，如果你說是隨機的，我覺得你公不公布感覺沒有差，可是這等於諮詢決策是大家共同負責的，現在問題情況是這樣，如果在大數裡面事前不列名，事後不署名，對於最後結果是誰出的意見，那搞不好會變成主要意見，如果說拜託不要寫我名字，前面64位也沒有人知道是哪一個案子，是你們自己派的嘛，假設後面也不用具名，我覺得把64位普遍地公布，在不涉個資的部分，因為我們是在問申訴委員會裡面的資料，並不是在問你魯明哲委員他什麼時候生的？存款多少？我有問這些嗎？你用個資法去講申訴委員會要不要公布他的名單，我建議可以討論，我只公布姓名，譬如說學經歷；對於個案，我建議完全不需要公布。他的壓力來自於這個案子找了某一位委員來，壓力當然會去找他嘛，那個就不對了。但是哪些人在我們國家做諮詢委員，那是一個榮譽吧，為什麼不能公布？我覺得要適度地去公布，但涉及個人個資、地址當然不要公布，這部分能不能部分來公布？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員的指教，我再說明一次，工程會的履約爭議是提出調解建議，這個調解建議要雙方都同意才有效、才成立，所以雙方都可以不接受，他是提出一個調解建議。過去因為案件太多，所以速度很慢，我們要補充人力也無從補起，包括員額、預算都沒有，所以我們才想現行的諮詢委員過來協助，這有點像是協助整理相關的調解建議內容、理由書的方式。諮詢委員本身除了這個工作之外，有些履約爭議的案件不必直接進入調解，不必直接申請調解，在之前可能是招標過程或者履約過程都可以來申請諮詢，而且那個諮詢就是好像顧問一樣，我跟你解釋，你們可以這樣做，至於要不要做，由雙方自己去做。今天的問題是，申訴委員依照法律規定公開，我們都已經公開了，關於諮詢委員，我想我們必須徵詢每個諮詢委員：你擔任諮詢委員的費用多少？是不是可以公開？如果每個諮詢委員同意，那當然我們就公開，如果他們不同意，我們無權替他們公開。"],["主席：請廖先翔委員。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝，請問一下，我覺得我們可以聚焦一點，因為大家沒有質疑諮詢委員存在的必要性，如果那對工程會的調解效率有幫助的話，我想剛剛都沒有提到要把它廢掉還是怎麼樣，最重要是討論資訊的公開。剛剛主委有提到，一個是諮詢委員，另外一個叫申訴委員，對於申訴委員，您說有法源依據可以公開，那請問一下，申訴委員公開名單的法源依據是什麼？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，我們的申訴會處理兩類案件，一個叫申訴，一個叫調解，申訴案件就相當於行政機關的訴願，訴願則依照訴願法，委員名單必須公開，因為他在決定書上面必須公開，所以我們當時在徵詢這些委員的時候就已經有請他提供要公開的資訊了，所以那部分我們有做到公開，是這樣來的。"],["廖委員先翔：你說依照訴願法，訴願的結果，訴願人的名字必須要在上面，所以他必須要公開？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：對。"],["廖委員先翔：你有沒有參考過其他類似的機關？譬如說很多機關都會有一些委員會，譬如最近比較紅的就是都市計畫委員會等等，這些委員的名單也都是公開，是吧？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：都計委員會跟我們的申訴人比較像，我們的諮詢委員比較像是內部諮詢用的，他並不是去做決定。"],["廖委員先翔：如果以個資法的法律位階跟政府資訊公開法來講的話，政府資訊公開法的優先順序應該高於個資法吧？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，因為政府資訊公開法第十八條也必須符合這些條件，如果有這些條件也是不能公開，裡面第一款就講，如果其他法令有規定；或者在第六款有講到涉及到隱私的部分，所以又會回到個資法，就是涉及個人資訊的部分又回到個資法。"],["廖委員先翔：那這條法令不就白定了？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：也不能這樣講，他還是要從個案裡面去判斷，是透過解釋的方法去判斷。"],["廖委員先翔：我想這還是有公共利益，我想資訊該不該公開很大的部分就是牽扯到公共利益，如果牽扯到公共利益的話，很多政府的事情就必須要公開，因為我們必須要知道你們聘請的諮詢委員的專業度、經歷等等，這本來就應該是可受公評之事。換個立場想一想，當然工程會有工程會的立場，如果換一個角度，站在政府公開透明的角度想，你也希望公共工程委員會聘請的諮詢委員，或者你站在廠商的立場想，你也希望這些委員的學經歷或者是社會歷練是能夠信服大家的，這是公家機關的公信力，大家要去檢視啊，如果都不公開這一些的話，那該怎麼檢視？就像現在大家在審大法官、在審考試委員，就是要提供這些經歷，大家才會說適不適格嘛，你們聘請的委員適不適格，這經費花得值不值得就是現在立法院要來探討的。"],["主席：好，本席在這邊做一個建議，剛剛委員也都有詳細地詢問，公部門這邊也有做詳細的說明。有關公共工程委員會的申訴審議委員會所聘請的申訴會委員，包括幕僚單位的諮詢委員都是針對廠商爭議申訴跟調解的運作模式及行政程序，剛剛公共工程委員會也有說明，法令規定可以公開的部分，針對申訴委員，有照法律規定來公開；諮詢委員的部分，因為在聘請時並未徵得諮詢委員的同意，所以依個資法的規定就不便公開。因為行政部門在這個部分有表達困難之處，本席是不是建議這個臨時提案不予處理，好不好？"],["黃委員健豪：主席，這樣子啦，因為我提兩案嘛……"],["主席：對。"],["黃委員健豪：第二案，我剛剛提到的，因為涉及酬勞明細，又涉及到案件及私人廠商的問題，所以我認為第二案可以不予處理，我接受。但是第一案公開所謂的諮詢委員名單，誠如剛剛幾位委員講的，如果諮詢委員會有壓力，請問那個申訴委員不會有壓力嗎？依法定公開的那些委員也會有壓力啊！既然這些諮詢委員只是僅供諮詢，我認為公開並沒有違反個資，我認為這是責任政治的問題，諮詢委員應該要公開名單，當然你在聘用當下沒有跟他講說可能會被公開，那我們是不是修正為後續在聘用的時候要徵得他的同意，就是他要能夠同意自己被放上去公開名單裡面再聘用。我可以接受現在他被聘用時沒有說好會被公開，所以他同意來擔任諮詢委員……"],["主席：黃委員的建議是之後聘任的時候徵詢是否可公開，因為目前已經聘用的，依個資法是不便公開。"],["魯委員明哲：我建議一下，大概就修最後這邊，我們也希望工程會未來針對委員的提案，如果可以用修正的，能提一些修正方案啦！不要直接全部否決。保障人民知的權利，最後倒數第2行「工程會應於1個月以內徵詢現有的諮詢委員公開的意願」，然後予以公開嘛！你們也要徵詢一下，搞不好有些人講說我根本沒有問題，現在我們會認為64個都有問題，有時候明明人家就是很棒的，所以我是建議朝這個方向修正。你們1個月內去問要不要公開，要公開的就給他公開嘛！未來能夠持續走向直接徵詢、公開的這個方向，我覺得現在要開始朝向這個來做，如果他不願意，我們就尊重他的意願，是不是朝這個方向來修正？好不好？"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委的建議，算是一個折衷的方案啦！是不是我們……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們同意委員的修正。"],["主席：好，那我們就依據魯明哲召委剛剛的修正意見。"],["林委員俊憲：好，按照魯委員。"],["廖委員先翔：我確認一下。"],["主席：是不是文字上我們馬上修正？是不是請副主委把文字修改一下？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：1個月內徵詢……"],["廖委員先翔：我確認一下，你們現有的任期是多久？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：一年。"],["廖委員先翔：一年，所以也到年底了嘛？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，期限我再查一下。"],["廖委員先翔：對啊！所以剛剛講的是包含這一屆，還是從下一屆開始？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：如果是委員的提案，下次我們在……"],["廖委員先翔：新的一期啦！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我們在新聘的就會開始徵詢，形成一個固定的做法，是不是文字上可以容許修正為最後這一句話：「工程會應於1個月內徵詢申訴會諮詢委員意願，公開申訴會諮詢委員名單」？後面那一句話請求可以刪除。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["主席：在場委員沒有意見，我們就照工程會的修正意見通過。"],["廖委員先翔：之後每一期都會問嘛？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是，會。"],["主席：第1案照工程會的修正意見通過。","第2案是不是不予處理？黃委員。"],["黃委員健豪：撤案。"],["主席：第2案就不予處理。","臨時提案處理完畢，如有委員對上述提案補簽，列入紀錄並刊登公報。","現在請魯明哲召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","羅智強","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院公共工程委員會單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位\n預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播監督管理基金預算；四、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基\n金預算；五、審查113 年度中央政府總預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結書面報告案計 2 案\n（第一案至第四案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310801_00002"}}},{"id":"157630","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157630","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966e821af39815767a6768d6645aa784673100fefa9c0a589fc10cd3a5187eac2bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"12:00:51 - 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32.618,"text":"天氣變冷了所以大家愛吃火鍋那吃了火鍋大家需要有很多的一個蛋用的蛋量增加了那從這個蛋價的一個物價裡頭創了四年最低那最近就是主計總處有沒有關心到這個情形那你知道現在的蛋價就是我們不講說就是那個在末端的就是說"},{"start":634.019,"end":659.658,"text":"在這個大賣場裡頭每公斤每台斤應該是每台斤大概是多少錢你知道嗎?因為一般一盒這樣差不多60塊啦那如果60塊又100塊那它有不同的品質有不同的價錢嘛我就知道因為你都會上那個超市對,但是我也有在雜貨店買雜貨店一般說一斤才30幾塊"},{"start":661.039,"end":675.146,"text":"現在臺北還有雜貨店嗎?有有有,我們士林那邊就是很多都是雜貨店,然後它一斤才30幾塊一斤才30幾塊,那這一個單價的一個波動,你有沒有什麼比較好的一個因應的方式?"},{"start":675.714,"end":692.053,"text":"那事實上它整個波動是因為要看供需啦如果說第一個所以供需的一個調整是很重要的一個因素所以你認為就不會再跌了因為如果說你供給量很大它是一定跌的"},{"start":692.193,"end":692.793,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":722.413,"end":743.67,"text":"那後續的評估會不會再延?這個很重要喔這個部份它是物價小組每一次都有在做評對然後在做決定會不會再延?因為顯然1月20號如果川普那個上台的話我想這個整個那個全世界的經濟會做很大的一個波動那你這一個"},{"start":744.751,"end":760.236,"text":"這一個就是這一個會延不會延其實是關係到很大的一個營務料的一個我們市場的一個問題你看我們所有那個我們的畜牧業我們都需要養障就是那個小麥所以你也沒有把握他會不會延還是你可以透露一點"},{"start":768.14,"end":768.42,"text":"主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1063,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（12時）謝謝主席，請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：是，辛苦。今天要針對主計總處2025年的施政計畫，跟主計長做一些探討。你們編列的一般補助款，還有第二點的統計調查業務，我想2025年的一般事務性的補助款，事實上這些補助款是用來調整地方的財政盈虛，還有提升地方財政的自主，現在我們編列了一般性補助款2,501億，相較2024年度增加了199億，大概增加了8.6%。這些補助款大概是會用在哪些？就是用在縣市的現職人員的待遇調整經費以外，你還會用在哪些方面？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要跟委員報告的是，一般性補助款其實必須要跟統籌分配稅款一起來談。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["陳主計長淑姿：統籌分配稅款是比較著重在直轄市，然後一般性的補助款比較著重在縣市，所以它主要的項目是補助基本財政收支差短，如果縣市基本財政收支有差短，我們這個優先補助。第二個在定額補助的部分，我們會針對教育、針對社福，還有針對基本設施這些去做設算，譬如它有低收入戶的人口，或有一些基本設施或者公共設施的面積去做申算，那這樣子的部分我們會做一個分配。"],["賴委員惠員：好，主計長，那我們就納進來，就是統籌分配稅收和補助的稅收一起來談，我們從這一張圖表裡頭可以看到，縣市政府的重要指標查詢。我們看到2023年各直轄市、縣市的補助跟協助的收入，這裡頭顯然很明顯，我們看得到的就是，臺北市其實在統籌分配的稅收拿到了很多，相對的，臺南拿的就是少。還有我們從統籌分配稅收款裡頭，其實這個也是造成長期區域不均，你看從臺北市的650億到臺南的331億，其實這一個差距非常的大，非常的大。在非六都16個縣市平均是74億，其實我們都看到了地方的需求，這個經濟發展的差異，這個在這麼大的差別裡頭，如果我們用下一張來看的話，中央的補助款當然是會有助於區域的均衡，可是如果分配不均的話，該給的沒有給，不該給的給得太多，窮者越窮，有錢的人越有錢。不知道主計長對這樣子的中央補助款，在區域均衡裡頭，你有沒有什麼樣的看法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上是希望能夠均衡，就是有關……"],["賴委員惠員：對，當然均衡是非常重要。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對比較短絀的一些縣市，我們會給予一些協助和補助。這個部分當然也就是說，因為一般統籌分配稅款主要是著重在稅收的分層，相對的一些直轄市或臺北市，這些會分的比較多。所以在一般性補助款的部分，我們希望能夠做彌補，這個部分我們就會針對其他做設算，甚至於差短會給予補足。這個部分也是做一個調整，目前其實我們都有維持一定的成長，每一年都要有一個成長的比例，所以都有成長。"],["賴委員惠員：當然，主計長來自臺南，你應該非常了解本席的選區，如果我的選區的農水路沒有中央的挹注款的話，這個其實就是農民的生活落差。還有，最主要的尤其像在白河、東山山上有很多農產品收成了，一年一收，不管是柑仔還是這些橘子、柳丁，如果農路不順的話，甚至這個價錢也會變得很差。所以我們也希望這個財務資源的挹注，對於基礎建設的幫忙，跟公共建設的建立，對我們來講是有很大的差別，還有我們偏鄉的小學，還有醫療設備補助，所以我今天在這裡跟你探討，就是統籌分配稅款，如果我們沒有照一定的比例來看的話，如果這個財劃法實施下去的話，對地方其實該給的給了太多，應該是講不該給的給了太多了，該給的拿不到，所以這個會造成地方很大的掏空。尤其地方的預算法，我們看看地方的預算法，第九十六條第一項就是關於地方政府的預算，你給它錢了，它是不是有相對的法律上的編列呢？這一點你們有沒有去注意到？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們也特別注意到，剛剛也有委員指教這部分，這個部分因為一般地方的預算，都是在地方制度法裡面來提，除此之外，透過中央預算編列的部分再去補足。"],["賴委員惠員：那你有沒有去督促它呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在是不是要再用另外一個預算法，地方一個預算法來做另外規定……"],["賴委員惠員：你有在準備嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這我們會再研究。"],["賴委員惠員：在研究了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個重點在於因為目前提出來的版本，財劃法的修改就是只把財源劃分給地方，但是相關的事權沒有跟著去做調整，所以這樣的結果會造成地方變成支出浮濫……"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，你當然可以看到很大的問題，你來自於臺南，我就講臺南的高中職，到目前為止只因為差別就是10億，這十幾億而已，結果我們高中職，我們到現在臺南市政府，還不敢把它納編進來，那怎麼辦呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為以臺南的財力，事實上沒有辦法再去負擔，所以當初這個部分，我們一直沒有承接國立高中職，所以它一直還留在中央，那其他六都的部分都已經接回去了。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你現在當了主計長，應該幫臺南市想想辦法，十幾億啊！這個也跟主計長做這樣的一個建議。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，再來，就是經濟上的預測，從我們經濟的成長率裡頭，我們看到台經院最新的經濟預測預估，就是它覺得明年經濟成長率會下降，可能會到3.15%，可是基本上我們今年是好過年，它預測會上修到4.03%。","主計長，不管是出口還是進口的商品都讓我們看到了在2025年的經濟是會下修的。再來，我們看到主計總處也預測今年的經濟成長率是3.90%，2025年經濟成長率是3.26%，其實我們從這個數字都知道明年會稍微下降一點，還有美國總統川普回鍋的這一些因素，都會導致於明年經濟成長到底是會上調，還是會下調，你的看法呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分如果以113年度來講的話，因為前三季的成果是很亮麗，所以這個部分，我們本來在8月的時候預估是3.9%，那應該是會往上調。2025年的部分，我們初估是3.26%，因為2025是不是會受到美國川普總統回鍋的影響，這個部分我們還是要評估，因為我們必須對於關稅相關的政策……"],["賴委員惠員：你用你最直覺的判讀，你的專業判讀的話，你認為它是會上調，還是會下調？當然評估的因素非常多啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是目前我們是認為，真正的影響會在2026年，不會在2025年。"],["賴委員惠員：會在2026年，而不是在2025年？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員惠員：你認為2026年是會下調？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分也是還在評估，因為這種統計的估算……"],["賴委員惠員：不是啊！那是上還是下呢？那就是絕大部分你們……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個條件如果在變動的話，因為評估也會隨時做變動，所以這個部分我也沒辦法跟你說應該是上調還是下調。"],["賴委員惠員：好，主計長，天氣變冷了，大家愛吃火鍋，吃火鍋的時候需要用很多的蛋，用的蛋量增加了，蛋價創了4年最低，最近主計總處有沒有關心到這個情形？你知道現在的蛋價，我們不講那個在末端的，在大賣場裡頭每台斤大概是多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為一般一盒差不多60塊。"],["賴委員惠員：90塊。"],["陳主計長淑姿：60塊，也有100塊的。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["陳主計長淑姿：它有分類，不同的品質。"],["賴委員惠員：它有不同的品質，有不同的價錢。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，不同的價錢。"],["賴委員惠員：我知道因為你都會上超市。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，但是我也有在雜貨店買，雜貨店一般一斤才三十幾塊。"],["賴委員惠員：現在臺北還有雜貨店嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，有。"],["賴委員惠員：還有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們士林那邊很多都是雜貨店，然後一斤才三十幾塊。"],["賴委員惠員：一斤才三十幾塊，對於這個蛋價的波動，你有沒有什麼比較好的因應方式？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上它整個波動是因為要看供需，所以供需的調整是很重要的因素。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你認為不會再跌了？這個也是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為如果供給量很大，它是一定跌的。"],["賴委員惠員：那量夠不夠呢？請你密切去注意這個問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員惠員：最後再請教主計長，我們行政院從2021年開始實施關鍵原物料，黃豆、小麥、玉米，就是黃小玉這個關鍵原物料的稅負減徵措施。今年的9月已經延長到第13波了，預計會實施到今年底，那後續的評估會不會再延？這個很重要喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分是物價小組每一次都有在做評估，然後再做決定……"],["賴委員惠員：對，會不會再延？因為1月20號川普上台之後，我想全世界的經濟顯然會有很大的波動，這個措施會延不會延，其實是關係到很大的原物料市場的問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員惠員：你看我們的畜牧業，我們都需要仰仗小麥。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們也會參與，我們也會參與討論，物價小組裡面，我們是成員之一，這個部分……"],["賴委員惠員：所以你也沒有把握它會不會延，還是你可以透露一點？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這我也不敢透露，因為不是我主導的。"],["賴委員惠員：你也不敢講？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：好，我們是希望延啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上我會把委員的意思來轉達。"],["賴委員惠員：就是經濟上會比較穩定一點。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位質詢請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳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text":"為什麼?因為現在代主委兩天就下台兩天以後代主委才會上台那請問一下一個單位沒有首長來巡打請問這個預算如何去說明所以我坦白講今天我會提這個案過去我是非常堅持的尤其NCC所有的作為我本人是非常堅持的"},{"start":58.137,"end":75.391,"text":"因為今天是尊重主席他認為應該尋打那我們也希望沒有所長的東西沒有所長在場要去做解凍的動作本席是極力堅持"},{"start":76.695,"end":77.456,"text":"請陳經的主委"},{"start":110.611,"end":112.014,"text":"委員長好主委"},{"start":113.154,"end":136.328,"text":"我現在我記得你剛上任的時候本席就執行過因為我非常在乎的也一向非常支持公共工程委員會在飄搖不定的當中我是力挺公共工程委員會要有存在之必要這是不管誰當主委我都力挺為什麼因為公共工程"},{"start":137.475,"end":165.3,"text":"委員會是非常重要的因為我們政府裡面所有的標案那一定所有的規範都是公共工程委員會還來做監督所以每一次我基本上我是非常支持公共工程委員會可是上次主委上任以後我一直在提的就是公共工程的公安監督不周管理不效的問題"},{"start":166.533,"end":188.01,"text":"主委你可以告訴我因為經過兩三個月以來我不曉得你到底有沒有責成我們所屬去研究如何去做這些公安監督的連線跟監督的工作主委有沒有好報告委員我們除了"},{"start":189.147,"end":191.129,"text":"委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管通訊傳播委員會主管"},{"start":213.605,"end":241.605,"text":"公安的問題也會撤銷這個金石獎所以有使用一個新增的一個工程主委我要的就是說有沒有著手去做像最近只有10月份嘉義科大延期一個公安又死掉10月13號桃園的中游三街也有人死掉11月12號新北市第二行政也是有人死掉"},{"start":242.981,"end":263.386,"text":"注意我現在為什麼會這麼在乎因為雖然執行機關不是你但是不要忘了公共工程有關的你都一定要去管所以在這整個合約的部分你特別特別要去規範像這些東西所以我還是再次拜託主委"},{"start":264.554,"end":270.037,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家通訊傳播委員會單位預算"},{"start":280.982,"end":305.197,"text":"我希望主委將心比心這個部分刻不容緩盡快去規劃如何去聯合勞動部、勞研署這裡要做一個橫向聯繫的來動作所以我剛才已經舉例了不能管理無成效然後一直在說你們有在做注意我坦白跟你說"},{"start":306.098,"end":312.117,"text":"我對你是非常尊重的所以基本上該做的就要去做這個你做的到了為什麼不做"},{"start":313.441,"end":341.131,"text":"這個報告委員那我們會除了剛才我所說的因為你已經答應過我了對你已經答應過我了好另外就是派駐勞工的薪資強制化這個你也答應了這個你也做得到啊合約寫得很清楚就可以OK啦所以主委我也要拜託你勞工很可憐的我們上週會議已經決定修改範本要求派駐勞工薪水OK"},{"start":342.111,"end":370.379,"text":"OK所以這注意這我也要拜託你這個馬上要執行這是一個公平跟保障勞工的一個權利另外一個注意我就要提醒一下台電工程引用移工這個問題你們可能還是要去注意不管怎麼樣台電是國營事業所以在這個部分我也希望公共工程"},{"start":371.96,"end":391.548,"text":"委員會還是要準備在整個監督方面這個移工過來其實尤其台電他是危險性非常高的所以我要拜託我們主委在這個部分可能要真的還是要去注意一下是好最後就是預算的問題"},{"start":393.32,"end":405.717,"text":"預算的問題我不曉得我那個那個我們你們的處長來來會計室的處長來幫忙幫忙主委一下因為這個太細可能主委不太了解來預算書的問題"},{"start":409.582,"end":417.909,"text":"我請問一下114年你們的預算書的第17頁的預算針對你們的預算喔針對公共工程的法規部分分別為推動政府採購華澤等等這三項的東西為什麼要去重疊去編列409萬"},{"start":436.291,"end":454.58,"text":"我跟你講主委不會那麼了解那麼細但是很不幸的現在我們本委員會的立法委員在看預算都非常看得非常細所以主委你可能要去為什麼同樣的名稱會編列409萬這個第一另外一個就是"},{"start":459.682,"end":485.732,"text":"主委可能這個談起來主委可能一定要去注意我們預算114年度的預算第12頁的工作計畫第三項也就是公共工程所有的列管數據記載喔注意我們的列管我們的列管是7879億"},{"start":490.475,"end":501.078,"text":"我們公共工程但是卓院長在我們院會報告他的列管數據是6190億這裡面就差了1687億"},{"start":510.339,"end":532.952,"text":"主委你現在聽得懂我的意思嗎就是我們公共工程委員會他的數據跟行政院長卓院長在院會裡面報告的數據是對不起來的這原因是什麼所以我還是希望主委這當然你得要等他查一下我不希望卓院長講一套"},{"start":534.272,"end":555.361,"text":"陳主委講一套這樣的話我們在審預算到底要聽誰的所以我剛才所說明的這些預算我要拜託你們要解釋清楚不然審預算我跟你講我產生錯覺我砍預算你們不能怪我因為我一向很支持你們的欸"},{"start":556.221,"end":580.222,"text":"所以我提出這幾點我希望主委要去督促首屬各負責的單位一定要去做包括勞工薪資這等等公安的問題另外一個剛才我講了該校正的還是要校正因為不能卓院長講一套你陳主委講一套這樣對不起來會被罵"},{"start":585.466,"end":601.739,"text":"這個問題並非是很大的問題可是數據對不起來行政院長跟你對不起來這個是會贏效大方所以把它查清楚給本席一個說明這樣對於預算知不知詞我才有一個定見好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時33分）謝謝主席，NCC的預算，本席拒絕質詢它，但是剛剛我在提案中已經講得非常清楚，今天出席的NCC的官員不適合明年預算的備詢，這是主要原因。因為現在的代主委再過兩天就下台了，兩天以後新任主委才會上台，請問一下，一個單位沒有首長來詢答，這個預算如何說明？坦白講，今天我會提這個案，過去我是非常堅持的，尤其NCC所有的作為，我本人是非常堅持的，今天是尊重主席，他認為應該詢答，但是沒有首長在場要去解凍，本席極力堅持不能解凍。我還是希望主席了解我們堅持的理念，為了和諧，為了尊重主席，所以我們來詢答。主席，我現在要請公共工程會陳金德主委。"],["主席：請陳金德主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["林委員國成：主委，我記得你剛上任的時候本席就質詢過，因為我非常在乎也一向非常支持公共工程委員會，在飄搖不定當中，我是力挺公共工程委員會有存在之必要，不管誰當主委我都力挺。因為公共工程委員會是非常重要的，擬訂政府標案所有規範的都是公共工程委員會，還要監督，所以基本上我是非常支持公共工程委員會。可是上次主委上任以後，我一直在提的就是公共工程的工安監督不周、管理不效的問題。主委，你可以告訴我，因為經過兩、三個月以來，我不曉得你到底有沒有責成你們所屬去研究如何做這些工安監督的連繫工作？主委，有沒有？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我們除了針對列管的公共工程進行查核之外，我們在金質獎的評分裡面新增關於職安的問題，如果有發生職安的問題，那麼就會有減項，也就是扣分，甚至如果獲得金質獎，但它有發生工安的問題，也會撤銷金質獎，所以有使用一個新增的工具。"],["林委員國成：主委，我要的就是有沒有著手去做，像最近10月份，嘉義科學園區有一個工安事件又有人死掉；10月13號，桃園的中油三接也有人死掉；11月22號，新北市第二行政中心也是有人死掉。主委，我現在為什麼會這麼在乎？雖然執行機關不是你們，但是不要忘了，公共工程有關的你們都一定要去管，所以在這整個合約的部分，你特別、特別要去規範這些東西。因此我還是再次拜託主委，人命關天，講壞一點是賺得到但吃不到，這是勞工最悲哀的事情，只要一個工安發生事情，你知道嗎？勞工家裡面受了多少的痛苦，所以我希望主委將心比心，這個部分刻不容緩，儘快規劃如何聯合勞動部、勞檢署，這裡要橫向聯繫。","我剛才已經舉例了，不能管理無成效，然後一直說你們有在做。主委，我坦白跟你說，我對你是非常尊重的，所以基本上該做的就要去做，這個你做得到的，為什麼不做？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，除了剛才我所說明的……"],["林委員國成：好不好？因為你已經答應過我了……"],["陳主任委員金德：會強化跟各機關來……"],["林委員國成：對，你已經答應過我了。另外就是派駐勞工的薪資強制化，這個你也答應了，這個你也做得到啊！合約寫得很清楚，就可以OK啦！所以主委。我也要拜託你，勞工很可憐的。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們上週會議已經決定修改範本，要求派駐勞工薪水提高。"],["林委員國成：OK，主委，這我也要拜託你，這個要去做。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個已經馬上在執行。"],["林委員國成：這是一個公平跟保障勞工的權利。"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["林委員國成：另外，主委，我要跟你提醒一下，台電工程引用移工，這個問題你們可能還是要去注意。不管怎麼樣，台電是國營事業，所以在這個部分，我也希望公共工程委員會在整個監督方面還是要準備，移工過來，尤其台電的工作是危險性非常高的，所以我要拜託主委，在這個部分真的還是要去注意一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["林委員國成：最後就是預算的問題，預算的問題，我不曉得……你們會計室的處長來幫忙主委一下，因為這個太細，可能主委不太了解。關於預算書的問題，我請問一下，你們114年預算書第17頁，在你們的預算中，針對公共工程的法規部分，分別為推動政府採購作業等等，這3項東西寫的都一樣，為什麼要重疊編列409萬？我跟你講，主委不會了解到那麼細，但是很不幸的，現在本委員會的立法委員在看預算都看得非常細，所以主委可能要去了解，為什麼同樣的名稱會編列409萬？這是第一個。另外一個，這個談起來，主委可能一定要去注意，114年度預算第12頁的工作計畫第3項，也就是公共工程所有的列管數據記載，主委，你們列管的公共工程是7,879億，但是卓院長在院會報告時，它的列管數據是6,190億，這裡面就差了1,689億。主委，你現在聽得懂我的意思嗎？就是公共工程委員會的數據跟行政院卓院長在院會裡面報告的數據是對不起來的，這原因是什麼？主委，這當然你要回去查一下，我不希望卓院長講一套，陳主委講一套，這樣的話，我們在審預算到底要聽誰的？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們查明之後再跟委員說明。"],["林委員國成：我剛才所說明的這些預算，我拜託你們要解釋清楚，不然審預算時，我跟你講，若我產生錯覺，我砍預算，你們不能怪我喔！我一向很支持你們的，針對我提出這幾點，我希望主委要去督促所屬各負責的單位一定要去做，包括勞工薪資、工安等等的問題。另外一個，剛才我講了，該校正的還是要校正，因為不能卓院長講一套、陳主委講一套，這樣對不起來會被笑啦！這個問題並非是很大的問題，可是數據對不起來，行政院長報告的跟你們的對不起來，這個會貽笑大方，所以把它查清楚，給本席一個說明，這樣對於預算支不支持，我才有一個定見，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員。","接下來邀請李昆澤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-12","speakers":["陳素月","林國成","李昆澤","魯明哲","林沛祥","許智傑","林俊憲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林淑芬","蔡其昌","游顥","邱若華","何欣純","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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"text":"報告委員事實上今年113年1到9月我們的經常性薪資平均是連增2.72然後他跟我們的CPI去比事實上是正成長並不是說像委員說的是負成長那目前的部分我們經常性薪資也都是正常成長的一個方向來走而且是逐年在成長連我們的中位數也都是成長"},{"start":548.667,"end":570.779,"text":"為什麼我手上的資料是負的呢?是是,我們在補充資料,那是去年的,我們在補充資料,今年一到九年,全部是正成長所以今年是會上升就對了?是是,都全正成長那我手上的資料卻是負的啊,負成長啊那是一一二年的部分,那我們會補一百我來再講一下啦,國人的一個,我們雖然每一年都在調高基本薪資,但是"},{"start":572.065,"end":587.512,"text":"也代表著物價不斷的一個上漲現在物價通膨大家都很感受那國人的加薪加班費還有獎金這個調漲的幅度根本趕不上通膨的速度那對於一些領高於基本薪資的對勞工來講這個調漲對他們毫無作用但是"},{"start":593.424,"end":615.401,"text":"他的副作用來的就是這些物價的上漲那包括每一次像是外食費、蛋價、菜價這些漲幅大家都有看到五塊、十塊這些東西都高於這個薪資的增幅所以最後有可能出現說本身薪水沒有調漲但是物價都上來了"},{"start":616.221,"end":644.538,"text":"你調漲是基本工資嘛調漲基本工資的用意就是說他是要考量弱勢勞工的部分對於避免貧富差距擴大那對於領高於基本薪資的我們這些廣大的勞工族群來說第一個他沒有受益但是整個物價都往上漲了受害的是他所以這部分我想主計長你怎麼看對這這樣子負擔要負擔更多的開銷"},{"start":645.919,"end":671.209,"text":"受害者怎麼辦?跟委員報告就是剛剛如委員所提去年的部分事實上是等於是說他薪資的成長沒有比通膨還要高但是今年一到九月他薪資的成長都高於通膨通膨的一個那個所以他本身薪資是呈現成長而且以行政院來講他也是帶頭來所以我們今年就是把所有的受僱的"},{"start":671.889,"end":673.45,"text":"一個相關的一個限制調到3萬1"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":528,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時18分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。主席，有請主計總處陳主計長。"],["主席：主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長好。明年中央政府總預算歲出編列3.13兆，占比最重的是社福支出8,310億，比今年增加413億。社福是我們最不可缺的一環，我們都希望民眾生活可以過得更好，每個人也都希望能夠享有政府提供的社會福利。本席的選區面積很大，大概260平方公里，臺北市是270平方公里。我選區內的部分區域人口快速成長，有些是平盤，整個海線的人口增加很大的幅度，因為人口增加，所以也衍生出一些迫在眉睫的問題。除了高齡化之外，就是少子化，在長照政策方面，根據臺中市政府113年度長照2.0整合型計畫報告，有關一國中學區一日照的達成情形，龍井、烏日大概是66.7%，沙鹿的部分是75%，市區大概都百分之百、都達成了，跟市區相比顯然落後很多。我剛剛提到的行政區都是人口快速成長的地方，希望未來主計總處能夠多幫忙，我們會積極爭取相關預算來擴建日照中心，避免量能不足，讓民眾能夠得到更好的長照服務。這個部分要請主計總處多幫忙。","另外是治水相關的部分，前瞻預算第5期703億全數以舉借債務支應，其中水環境的部分有218億，南部地區因為颱風侵襲，造成的災害比較嚴重，導致救災常常要預支挪用，變成中部地區的預防性水利工程沒有預算可以進行。就以我的選區裡面來講，臺中海線的南山截水溝一、二期工程已經完成，最重要的第三期工程到現在都沒有著落。因為水利署常常要求地方政府先行代墊，但是會不會墊一墊就變成自掏腰包、變成有借無還？本席要請主計長多留意預算挪用的情況，在這種極端氣候的影響之下，全臺各地都經常發生突發性豪大雨，尤其海線地區地勢低窪，如果碰到漲潮、極端氣候影響，再加上水利工程沒有完善的情況，一發生災害是很難想像的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為剛剛委員談到有墊付的情形，事實上我們去了解，它不是，應該是縣市要配合的配合款，只是因為前瞻預算的案子如果沒有通過的話，這個部分的配合款可能就沒有辦法，就要叫它先行編列預算。再來就是有關災害的部分，一般針對復建工程都會先撥10%，還有救助和緊急搶救的部分都會在核定的經費裡面5%，甚至於看緊急的情形會有6%、7%、8%的調整。至於資金的調度，我們也會看，地方如果有困難，就會預先來挹注，像花蓮震災，我們都先預借給它3億元；像莫蘭蒂颱風的時候，也借給高雄3億元，所以一般縣市如果有困難，中央在這部分都會先行挹注。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，我再請教青年失業率的問題。今年是九年級，就是90年次以後出生的人開始進入職場的時間，他迎來的卻是一個屢創新高的青年失業率。根據主計總處的資料，今年1到10月，20到24歲青年失業率高達11.69%，是所有年齡層中失業率最高的，跟45到64歲中高齡的失業率2.15%相比，差了5.43倍，你認為是什麼原因導致這些青少年找不到工作？可不可以先說明一下？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，青年失業率的統計是15到29歲，剛剛委員講的是指20到24歲的部分，是十一點多，但是它已經從十三點多降到十一點多，有降了。"],["顏委員寬恒：有比較好就對了？十一點多算有比較好，這樣就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以這個部分已逐步在降，因為……"],["顏委員寬恒：11.69%，你滿意嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不，我們當然是要盡力來改善。這個部分因為是初入職場，很多都是對於薪資不滿意、對於工作職類不滿意，所以異動率就會比較高。"],["顏委員寬恒：你的解釋就是因為他……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這就是目前分析的狀況。"],["顏委員寬恒：第一次投入職場，對於就業環境不滿意，所以才會導致高失業率，是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他不滿意就業的職類別，包括薪資，他也不滿意，所以我們會做調查、分析，發現這幾個方面比較偏高。"],["顏委員寬恒：我國的高等教育普及度很高，青少年都具備很好的知識跟能力，應該是企業競相爭取聘用的對象，尤其年輕人的想法、創意都很創新，而且都很新穎，他應該也能夠為企業投入更多的活力。但是為什麼實際上失業率這麼高？你認為我國青少年失業率會這麼高的原因，除了你剛剛提的之外，還有沒有其他原因？沒有？就是因為就業別的關係……"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為他不穩定，他一直換工作。"],["顏委員寬恒：喔！不穩定，換工作。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，就是這個部分，因為我們調查分析的兩樣主要原因就是在這裡。"],["顏委員寬恒：我認為我們要去思考怎麼樣鼓勵企業能夠提供更好的就業環境及就業條件。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：讓年輕人、剛出社會的這些新鮮人，能給他們更多的機會來進入這個社會學習跟培養相關的實力，這樣才能夠讓我們的國家更有創造力。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，我再請教，明年1月1日最低薪資從2萬7,470元調升到2萬8,590元，時薪從183元調到190元，明年就是最低工資第九度調高。從我們過去的數字可以來看，名目薪資的調漲不等於實質薪資會漲。今年公布的一個數據，去年經常性薪資是4萬5,496元，實質經常性薪資是4萬1,334元，實質經常性薪資又降低了0.05%，連續三年為負數，實質總薪資的值也減少了1.04%，是七年來首度負成長。我要請教主計長，用專業角度去預測一下，你認為今年實質總薪資、實質經常性總薪資相較於去年是會上升，還是負成長的狀態？判斷的依據是什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，事實上，今年113年1到9月，我們的經常性薪資平均是年增2.72%，它跟我們的CPI去比，事實上是正成長，並不是像委員說的是負成長，目前我們經常性薪資也都是呈正成長的方向來走，而且是逐年在成長，連我們的中位數也都是成長。"],["顏委員寬恒：為什麼我手上資料是負的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們再補充資料，那是去年的，我們再補充資料，今年1到9月是正成長。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以今年是會上升就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，全部正成長。"],["顏委員寬恒：我手上資料卻是負的、負成長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是112年的部分，我們會補113年……"],["顏委員寬恒：好，我再講一下，雖然我們每一年都在調高國人基本薪資，但是也代表著物價不斷的上漲，現在物價通膨，大家都很有感受。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：國人的加薪、加班費還有獎金調漲的幅度根本趕不上通膨的速度，對於一些領高於基本薪資的勞工來講，基本薪資調漲對他們毫無作用，但是它的副作用來了，就是這些物價的上漲，包括每一次像是外食費、蛋價、菜價這些漲幅，大家都有看到，比如5塊、10塊，這些東西都高於薪資的增幅，所以最後有可能出現本身薪水沒有調漲，但是物價都上來，你調漲的是基本工資，調漲基本工資的用意就是要考量弱勢勞工的部分，避免貧富差距擴大，對於領高於基本薪資的這些廣大勞工族群來說，第一個，他沒有受益，但是整個物價都往上漲，受害的是他，所以這部分，主計長你怎麼看？對於這樣子要負擔更多的開銷而受害的，怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，剛剛如委員所提，去年的部分事實上等於是說他薪資的成長沒有比通膨還要高。"],["顏委員寬恒：對。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是今年1到9月，他薪資的成長都高於通膨，所以他本身薪資是呈現成長，而且以行政院來講，它也是帶頭，所以我們今年就是把所有受僱的相關薪資調到三萬一……"],["顏委員寬恒：你講的都是數字，但是我講的是感受。確實現在是螺旋上漲，就是整個菜價、物價螺旋上漲、薪資停滯，這個是現況，所以我們不要去美化數字，我們要的是實質想出什麼樣的辦法來協助大家能夠擁有一個更好的生活品質，然後找到一個更好的解決方案，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員。","接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157588","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157588","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966c9a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九十九趴九十九趴但我現在目前看到的你的達成率只有三成欸所以我的意思是說這對民眾他的觀感是有差距的明明有那麼多不公平的事情結果你的罰款的達成率這麼的低這是因為有時候官司一打打個五六年七八年更久所以你要做一個更詳細的報告你不可以給我們這種資料嘛"},{"start":150.982,"end":156.867,"text":"您有沒有覺得你們給這個資料是不完全揭露?是不是?那你給這個資料就是錯的啦!你們為什麼會提供錯誤的資料呢?為什麼?你們應該要把這些都寫清楚而不是告訴我們這達成率這麼低都已經不能看年年還編這樣"},{"start":175.455,"end":176.296,"text":"主委 請問預計你明年的達成率是多少?"},{"start":198.697,"end":225.416,"text":"我想這要看行政訴訟官司的結果但是我們這個處分一罰下去錢都有進來那你錢進來你上面沒有顯示啊你的資料亂寫啊你資料為什麼會提供這樣的資料我接下來再問你就是9月底的時候本席有向這個主委反映哦Uber的會員不管是叫車或是叫餐會員都比非會員還不優惠"},{"start":228.407,"end":243.942,"text":"那你就說要查啦那到現在到底有沒有正式立案調查了我們有立案調查也請當事人所以你們也已經開始立案調查了那調查的進度為何呢我想現在還在調查當中大概你們預計什麼時候能夠有一個確切的答案"},{"start":245.798,"end":267.552,"text":"這個要看當時就是說他的陳述意見的狀況你們要積極阿 全部都depend on others就你們都沒有你們都沒有責任你們也沒有想要積極作為嗎你都立案了你還想要慢慢吞吞的調查是要當事人還是要提供一些證據是阿那你要給他時間限制你要要求他呀"},{"start":268.895,"end":271.417,"text":"難道你給他3個月他就慢慢寫就好你為什麼不給他3個禮拜呢這件事情真的必須趕快處理因為直到現在社群平台上還有很多人發現這樣子的情況說明這絕對不是個案"},{"start":286.172,"end":310.873,"text":"我們辦公室同仁兩支手機一個是會員一個是非會員非會員叫車常常都比會員叫車便宜這合理嗎他平常叫大家加入會員就是說會員會比非會員還便宜那這就是不實廣告啊為什麼要花那麼多時間都還沒有辦法查證呢我想我們再查一個違法案件一方面是這個"},{"start":312.774,"end":321.417,"text":"在程序上是要讓被檢舉人有一個充分答辯的機會這樣我們的審查的品質是你要給他答辯的機會本席都同意但是你要積極的來查你要加速啊你要知道這個外送平台上面有多少人用嗎如果據本席的資料臺灣已經有31%的消費者都使用外送平台那這樣平均起來"},{"start":336.883,"end":338.024,"text":"發言委員這家他有要跟總部要相關資料的問題"},{"start":364.104,"end":366.425,"text":"這就明顯是被拖延嘛!你是被騙了吧?他這個Uber的訂閱會員的介紹頁面就很明顯的寫到說每月平均省440元那顯然這個比基準是以跟非會員比嘛"},{"start":389.031,"end":398.7,"text":"那常常是非會員比較便宜怎麼可能會省怎麼可能會比較便宜而且他這個440塊數字是哪裡算來的這難道不是不實廣告嗎是啊 那你預計什麼時候他可以說明完成盡快是什麼時候是明年嗎"},{"start":416.138,"end":424.738,"text":"還是什麼時候你不可能這麼多人在訂閱三餐很多人都外送你就放任他們這些會員每天被吸血嗎"},{"start":426.345,"end":442.077,"text":"跟委員報告我們上個月立案調查我們現在已經有請他提出說明可是因為他因為他的這個總公司的那個不是在臺灣所以他說明的時候那臺灣是完全沒有資料嗎他登記在臺灣他臺灣沒有資料嗎這種自由是你們可以接受的嗎本席絕對不是針對Uber不管哪一間企業我們都是用同樣的標準來檢視希望公平會要做到"},{"start":453.307,"end":456.383,"text":"市場消費市場的秩序守護者"},{"start":460.359,"end":485.911,"text":"你覺得有做到嗎?你覺得你有做到嗎?這700萬人的權益你有守護嗎?你用這種消極的態度你要等他總部現在一秒多快啊?三秒就已經可以傳過來了你打算等多久?你打算等多久?你打算等多久?要多久?你本來你要求他多久以內要回來?"},{"start":489.212,"end":510.26,"text":"根本報告我們都是按照正常的程序而且他現在已經有相關的答覆但是針對答覆的內容還要跟事實做一個核對所以我們可能還要進一步所以你們是人手不足嗎還是調查動力不足是調查程序當我們調查程序當我們說主委主委我有讓他講話嗎不好意思"},{"start":513.527,"end":513.667,"text":"委員我們要有這個"},{"start":529.931,"end":533.554,"text":"請主委一個禮拜提供出來因為我們這數位網路很發達請你們不要做事都不積極一直推脫拉好"},{"start":559.053,"end":559.133,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時20分）主席早安，我想請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["張委員嘉郡：主委早。本席在翻閱預算書的時候有注意到，公平會114年的預算案，罰款與賠償收入編列了1億1,895萬4,000元，而且好多年都是相差不遠的數字。主委，公平會每年的罰鍰達成率有多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們每年的罰鍰，如果以今年到10月為止，我們開出去的罰鍰金額是一億五千多。"],["張委員嘉郡：喔？是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你們有罰一億五千多，那你為什麼明年開……"],["李主任委員鎂：我想每一年開罰的情形都不太一樣，如果以今年到現在，開出去處分的罰鍰是一億多……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你們的收入也已經有一億五千多了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為當事人會提起行政訴訟，等到官司打贏、確定了才能夠入帳。"],["張委員嘉郡：如果以目前收到的這些資料，過去5年平均你編的預算達標率average都不到三成耶！只有一年，111年達成三成而已。所以我對你編的這個預算有一點疑慮是在於，為什麼像111年1億4,000萬的這個你只罰了4,000萬？"],["李主任委員鎂：我先跟委員報告，是這樣子，我們譬如罰了2,000萬，當事人的錢就會進來，但是他要打官司、訴訟，我們這個錢就只能放在那裡，等到贏了……"],["張委員嘉郡：你的意思是你的達成率是高於現在這個嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：開出去的罰鍰，因為每年罰的多少會有不一樣，收繳率是九成以上、99%，但是要決算……"],["張委員嘉郡：99%？但是我目前看到的，你的達成率只有三成耶！我的意思是，就民眾的觀感是有差距的。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我想……"],["張委員嘉郡：他說明明有那麼多不公平的事情，結果你罰鍰的達成率這麼低！"],["李主任委員鎂：這是因為有時候官司一打就打個5、6年；7、8年或更久，所以要等到法院確定之後……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你要做一個更詳細的報告，你不可以給我們這種資料嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：你有沒有覺得你們給這個資料是不完全揭露？"],["李主任委員鎂：我進一步再說明，容易造成……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是？那你給這個資料就是錯的啦！你們為什麼會提供錯誤的資料？為什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是說決算數，我們決算數是要以入庫的……"],["張委員嘉郡：你們應該要把這些都寫清楚，而不是告訴我們……這個達成率這麼低，都已經不能看了，每年還編這樣，合理嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們會後給委員比較詳細的說明。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。當然本席同意開罰是手段，不是目的，但你們每年開罰一億多，然後達成率兩、三成，代表你們就沒有在做、眼高手低嘛！主委，請問你預計明年的達成率是多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這要看行政訴訟官司的結果，我們這個處分一罰下去，錢都有進來，但是進來要等確定……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你錢進來，你上面沒有顯示，你的資料亂寫啊！你為什麼會提供這樣的資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：那個預算數跟決算數……"],["張委員嘉郡：我接下來再問你，9月底的時候本席有向主委反映，Uber會員不管是叫車或是叫餐，會員都比非會員還不優惠，你就說要查。那到現在，到底有沒有正式立案調查了？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有立案調查，也請當事人……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你們也已經開始立案調查了。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：調查的進度為何？"],["李主任委員鎂：現在還在調查當中。"],["張委員嘉郡：大概你們預計什麼時候能夠有一個確切的答案？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要看當時，就是他陳述意見的狀況……"],["張委員嘉郡：你們要積極啊！全部都depend on others，你們都沒有責任，你們也沒有想要積極作為嘛！你都立案了，你還想要慢慢吞吞地調查。"],["李主任委員鎂：不是慢慢吞吞，當事人還是要提供一些證據，我們會做評斷。"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！那你要給他時間限制，你要要求他呀！難道你給他3個月，他慢慢寫就好，你為什麼不給他3個禮拜呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們會……"],["張委員嘉郡：這一件事情真的必須趕快處理，因為直到現在社群平臺上還有很多人發現這樣子的情況，說明這絕對不是個案。我們辦公室同仁兩支手機，一個是會員，一個是非會員，非會員叫車，常常都比會員叫車便宜，這合理嗎？它平常叫大家加入會員，就是說會員會比非會員還便宜，這就是不實廣告啊！為什麼要花那麼多的時間都還沒有辦法查證？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們在查一個違法案件，一方面在程序上是要讓被檢舉人有充分答辯的機會，這樣我們審查的品質才會精確，但是在訴訟上……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，你要給他答辯的機會，本席都同意，但是你要積極地查、你要加速啊！你要知道這個外送平臺上面有多少人用嗎？如果據本席的資料，臺灣已經有31%的消費者都使用外送平臺，這樣平均起來是有700萬用戶耶！七百萬人的權益，你不用守護嗎？我完全無法理解，怎麼會不積極去處理這件事情？"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員，有積極處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：而且如果連這種基本的問題你都要慢慢吞吞、支支吾吾，沒有辦法給具體的答案，那公平會的魄力在哪裡？"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員，這一家它有要跟總部要相關資料的問題……"],["張委員嘉郡：它還要跟總部調相關資料，它在臺灣營運，它沒有資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個要……"],["張委員嘉郡：這就明顯是被拖延嘛！你是被騙了吧！"],["李主任委員鎂：不是，我們有很多資料要一起提供，這個案子，我們會一定會好好地辦。"],["張委員嘉郡：Uber訂閱會員的介紹頁面就很明顯寫到每月平均省440元，顯然這個基準是跟非會員比，而常常是非會員比較便宜，怎麼可能會省、怎麼可能會比較便宜，而且這440塊的數字是哪裡算來的，這難道不是不實廣告嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要……"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！那你預計什麼時候它可以說明完成？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會儘快處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：儘快是什麼時候？"],["李主任委員鎂：處長可以說明一下嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：是明年嗎？還是什麼時候？你不可能……這麼多人在訂閱，三餐很多人都外送，你就放任這些會員每天被吸血嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：進度說明一下。"],["沈處長麗玉：跟委員報告，我們上個月立案調查，現在已經請它提出說明，可是因為它的總公司不是在臺灣，所以它說明的時間……"],["張委員嘉郡：那臺灣是完全沒有資料嗎？"],["沈處長麗玉：它已經有提出說明。"],["張委員嘉郡：登記在臺灣，它在臺灣沒有資料嗎？"],["沈處長麗玉：因為……"],["張委員嘉郡：這種理由是你們可以接受的嗎？本席絕對不是針對Uber，不管哪一間企業，我們都是用同樣的標準檢視，希望公平會要做到是消費市場秩序的守護者。"],["李主任委員鎂：來維護整個……"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得有做到嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：秩序的……"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得你有做到嗎？這700萬人的權益你有守護嗎？你用這種消極的態度，你要等他總部……"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有消極。"],["張委員嘉郡：現在email多快啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有消極，這個程序上，該走的程序……"],["張委員嘉郡：3秒就已經可以傳過來了，你打算等多久？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於檢舉案件，有程序要走，我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：你打算等多久？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個事證資料清楚之後，我們就會……"],["張委員嘉郡：要多久？你要求他多久以內要回來……"],["李主任委員鎂：請說明。"],["沈處長麗玉：跟委員報告，我們都是按照正常的程序，而且它現在有……"],["張委員嘉郡：正常程序是多久嘛？"],["沈處長麗玉：它現在……"],["張委員嘉郡：多久？"],["沈處長麗玉：它現在已經有相關的答復，但是針對答復的內容……"],["張委員嘉郡：相關答復是怎麼樣？"],["沈處長麗玉：我們還要去跟事實做核對，所以我們可能要進一步做調查。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你們是人手不足嗎？還是調查動力不足？"],["沈處長麗玉：是調查程序……"],["張委員嘉郡：調查什麼程序？"],["沈處長麗玉：當我們收到……"],["張委員嘉郡：主委，我有讓他講話嗎？"],["沈處長麗玉：不好意思。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員說明，任何一個涉法的案件……"],["張委員嘉郡：包括上次我問你Coupang，有立案調查了嗎？Coupang的不實評論，南韓都罰了34億了，你有立案調查嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，我們要有事證，第一個，Coupang……"],["張委員嘉郡：事證？這麼明確的事證，你每天都可以上網路印啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：Coupang的經營模式跟臺灣不一樣，它在韓國有自有品牌，所……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你在臺灣還是……"],["李主任委員鎂：在臺灣它沒有自有品牌。"],["張委員嘉郡：可以看到這些不實的評論，所以主委，你要儘快立案調查，謝謝。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員上次提到的，我們有去了解，我會後再跟委員說明，情況並不一樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：儘快、儘快。謝謝。"],["主席：請主委一個禮拜內提供出來，因為現在數位網路很發達，請你們不要做事不積極，一直推拖拉。好，一個禮拜。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝主席。"],["主席：在呂玉玲質詢完畢後休息。現在請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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"我們現在草案已經送到行政院那在行政院那邊其實我們還在討論要搭配相關的指引跟作用法完善然後希望能夠盡快送到立法院預計什麼時候"},{"start":92.006,"end":119.222,"text":"目前還要看行政院的審查的這個進度拜託主委你也是政委也拜託行政院我們現在AI每天都在改啦GPT-5可能就要出來啦Elon Musk在一邊打遊戲一邊直播的時候說2026年超級人工智慧要出來了所以我們還在等你們這個外界其實對這樣的一個狀況是眾說紛紜有說產業界對於COCOA的草案版本有意見也有說草案在行政院院會審議的時候"},{"start":120.723,"end":135.189,"text":"方向大改AI風險分級的框架被大幅調整請問主委有沒有規劃利用行政院審議草案的期間安排跟產業進行溝通聽取實務意見剛剛這些外界的捕風捉影是不是真的"},{"start":136.36,"end":144.221,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":166.24,"end":170.941,"text":"第11屆第2會議中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":191.846,"end":197.91,"text":"接下來因為川普當選所以他們對於AI可能會鬆綁管制很可能會讓AI基本法也蠻生長你說明年第一個會期未來行政院版人工智慧基本法草案是不是會往美國鬆綁的方向進行調整要不要預告一下不然產業不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":216.894,"end":217.334,"text":"議員主席議員主委"},{"start":237.248,"end":257.355,"text":"目前美國為了要加速他們是出了殺招說川普甚至要任命AI殺黃這是媒體直接引用的詞是希望能夠快一點能夠統和能夠跨部會您是政委我其實有點懷疑你有沒有想要擔任這個角色AI殺黃"},{"start":259.496,"end":260.716,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":272.455,"end":290.176,"text":"那你的意見很重要嘛,對不對?你是政委啊,是吧?你們是行政院啊,你們要把東西推出來啊,不然我們怎麼審咧?對吧?我們還是得要尊重科科學的意見不要擔任AI沙皇這種所謂的極端的角色,但是呢,在速度上應該要參考齁"},{"start":291.658,"end":296.803,"text":"所以應該要做更多的溝通不要做這種獨裁的撒謊接下來還要跟主委探討也是跟產業非常有關的這個議題就是兩奈米的製程各界非常的關心主委很特別您接受日經亞洲的專訪說期待川普1月上任以後能跟他合作"},{"start":311.836,"end":331.839,"text":"如果兩奈米製成的半導體廠明年按計畫開始量產,而且量產技術成熟的話,就可以開始規劃在盟國建造最新的兩奈米半導體廠。請教主委,依照專業意見的見解,您認為台積電兩奈米最快何時會赴美設廠?"},{"start":334.121,"end":336.244,"text":"這個要基於邀請我們去設廠的國家提出的條件因為這還牽扯到說"},{"start":343.925,"end":357.992,"text":"我們不是要搞主權AI嗎?我們不是說要有主權嗎?您的看法是什麼?我問的是您的看法。我的看法是這個是對我們有利的啊。什麼時候?所以越快越好,是不是?好,那請教主委。不是越快越好。那你就說什麼情況之下,國科會會同意讓台積電兩奈米到美國設廠?"},{"start":364.995,"end":365.476,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":377.986,"end":398.76,"text":"國會負責我們科學研究的開發以及我們廠商將來在營運的時候各種需求的沒關係你說你說經濟部嘛經濟部長郭志輝說兩奈米要赴美社廠的時候最起碼1.4奈米要落地生產你說越快越好他說要1.4奈米落地生產這不是多頭馬車嗎"},{"start":399.921,"end":426.77,"text":"不是落地生產就是下一代製程研發已經有一個階段可以試量產不是正式量產所以您打臉郭智慧部長的說話對不對你剛剛把球踢給經濟部經濟部有經濟部的看法你現在要打臉郭部長沒有打臉試產試產是研發過程當中非常重要的沒關係主委您是政委你現在要打臉他我支持你嘛我沒有打臉你打臉他嘛"},{"start":427.23,"end":436.939,"text":"我們是討論過的我跟郭部長討論過所以郭部長這個話要收回去11月7號他已經收回了是不是沒關係啦他的立場搖擺我們也都很習慣您的立場搖擺我們也很習慣啦但是拜託不要這樣產業會不知道怎麼辦好不好產業知道怎麼辦產業知道產業知道那我們知不知道產業知道政府的規範我們不知道是不是我們知道嗎我們講的就是政府的規範"},{"start":454.611,"end":462.178,"text":"需不需要透明溝通啊?需不需要讓我們知道啊?我們大院不需要被溝通不需要知道嗎?我們現在公布的這種方案就是我們前瞻製程研發一定會留在台灣"},{"start":469.349,"end":470.811,"text":"兩奈米要在台灣量產三年以後才能赴美設廠。"},{"start":488.098,"end":504.45,"text":"三年是三年是說你從討論開始規劃當地的政府補助土地用地區的我們現在就是自己我們在計算跟產業在討論差不多也非常關係嘛差不多啦所以最快是不是應該2028才能去"},{"start":506.391,"end":508.692,"text":"第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":523.018,"end":526.119,"text":"最大最大最大最大最大最大最大最大最大"},{"start":552.927,"end":580.416,"text":"其實呢我們也是支持科技國防的立場defense非常的重要那近期有一個代號這個列銷專案引發非常多的討論但是我們作為科技界的其實呢我們也發現這家公司的背後其實是科技界的神人宅男界的大神這個呢就是開創了VR元年的一個傢伙"},{"start":581.656,"end":584.94,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":595.01,"end":623.5,"text":"很好,我們今天有這樣的健康的交流這個人呢他是非常非常有名的Pomer Lockie沒有他沒有現在的VR也沒有現在的Metaverse的產業所以呢這個人呢發展出了一整個新世代的科技2015年登上時代雜誌的封面我們也發現在這個預算書裡面114年度我們的國科會也有一些預算是跟國防科技有關的所以呢我想要說的是什麼呢"},{"start":623.82,"end":643.097,"text":"其實有4.6億有7300萬還有很多我想要跟這個主委您也是政委交流的就是其實我們接下來會有很多的國防的採購或者合作這背後其實有隱藏的一些科技交流的機會我們不要只是去花錢買東西我們要買到什麼"},{"start":646.26,"end":646.72,"text":"及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":659.932,"end":678.093,"text":"科研逐步提升增幅將近1200%所以呢雖然未來我們的這個這個國防不一定真的能夠提高到GDP的10%但是範圍可能會逐年增加所以我們是不是國家科學主委您也是政委能不能夠在國防科技這一塊"},{"start":678.814,"end":680.235,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":342,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時16分）謝謝主席，有請國科會吳誠文主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好。今天主要是就國科會114年度預算進行審查，本席看了一下預算書，發現在審查113年度預算的時候，教文委員會就有針對AI基本法通過多項決議，要求國科會儘速研議AI基本法。關於其立法進度，也感謝國科會於今年的7月15日預告了人工智慧基本法草案，預告期滿以後，匯集各方意見應該會加以修改啦，最終在10月22號已經將法案送進行政院。但是主委，現在人工智慧基本法草案送進行政院也滿月了，這個baby也算是滿足月了，但是一直沒有從行政院送出，請問主委，人工智慧基本法是不是已經在行政院院會進行審議了？還是有人想要讓它稍微慢一點，還是我們應該要快一點，預計什麼時候可以送進立法院？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在草案已經送到行政院，在行政院那邊，其實我們還在討論要搭配相關的指引跟作用法完善，希望能夠儘快送到立法院來。"],["葛委員如鈞：預計什麼時候？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前還要看行政院審查的進度。"],["葛委員如鈞：拜託！主委，您也是政委，也拜託行政院，因為現在AI每天都在改，GPT5可能就要出來了，Elon Musk在一邊打遊戲，一邊直播的時候說「2026年超級人工智慧要出來了」，所以我們還在等你們這個草案，外界其實對這樣的狀況是眾說紛紜，有說產業界對於國科會的草案版本有意見，也有說草案在行政院院會審議的時候，方向大改，AI風險分級的框架被大幅調整，請問主委，有沒有規劃利用行政院審議草案的期間，安排跟產業進行溝通，聽取實務意見？剛剛這些外界的捕風捉影是不是真的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們跟外界的溝通從來沒有中斷過，包括在行政院的這個層級以及……"],["葛委員如鈞：方向有沒有大改？"],["吳主任委員誠文：方向沒有大改。"],["葛委員如鈞：風險層級有沒有劃分？有沒有大幅調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們是把歐盟的風險分級，跟美國的分類，把它整合在一起……"],["葛委員如鈞：做balance是不是？做平均？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：那到底什麼時候可以平均完呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在已經進行差不多了，目前正在針對各部會的作用法跟指引做盤點，盤點完……"],["葛委員如鈞：3個月？2個月？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個要看，因為行政院現在我們在……"],["葛委員如鈞：完全沒有？我們的AI內閣對AI基本法，完全沒有時間表啦，是不是？是不是，政委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該最慢在明年的第一個會期也許可以……"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦，雖然這真的有點慢，但希望加油啦。接下來因為川普當選了，所以他們對於AI可能會鬆綁管制，很可能會讓AI基本法野蠻生長，您說明年第一個會期可能會送來，那未來行政院版的人工智慧基本法草案，是不是會往美國鬆綁的方向進行調整啊？要不要預告一下？不然產業不知道怎麼辦啊。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我說我們儘量在，希望明年能夠順利啦，但是大家也都知道，科技的發展一直在往前走嘛，所以這種討論一定是沒完沒了啦，所以我們一定會有一個階段性的，依照社會的需求趕快……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，我必須跟您交換一下意見，目前美國為了要加速，他們是出了殺招，說川普甚至要任命「AI沙皇」，這是媒體直接引用的詞，是希望能夠快一點、能夠統合、能夠跨部會，您是政委，我其實有點懷疑你有沒有想要擔任「AI沙皇」這個角色，沙皇可以說好，也可以說不好，好的部分是，你如果有想法，你就大力加速的推動，不好是什麼呢？所有東西都卡在你這裡。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有辦法，因為所有東西我還是要跟立法院報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：但你的意見很重要嘛！你是政委啊！你們是行政院啊！你們要把東西推出來，不然我們怎麼審呢？對吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還是要尊重各部會的意見。"],["葛委員如鈞：不要擔任AI沙皇這種極端的角色，但是在速度上應該要參考，所以應該要做更多的溝通，不要做這種獨裁的沙皇。","接下來還要跟主委探討的也是跟產業非常有關的議題，就是2奈米的製程，各界非常的關心。主委很特別，您接受日經亞洲的專訪說，期待川普1月上任以後，能跟他合作，引號裡是您說的，您說：「如果2奈米製程的半導體廠明年能按計畫開始量產，而且量產技術成熟的話，就可以開始規劃在盟國建造最新的2奈米半導體廠。」請教主委，依照專業意見的見解，您認為台積電2奈米最快何時會赴美設廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個要基於……"],["葛委員如鈞：看一下你自己的quote。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個要基於邀請我們去設廠的國家所提出的條件，因為這還牽涉到……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們不是要搞主權AI嗎？我們不是說要有主權嗎？您的看法是什麼？我問的是您的看法。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我的看法是這個是對我們有利的。"],["葛委員如鈞：什麼時候？所以越快越好，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是越快越好……"],["葛委員如鈞：那請教主委，你就說什麼情況之下國科會會同意讓台積電2奈米廠到美國設廠，不要講那麼vague嘛！什麼對我們有利。"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意廠商到國外投資是經濟部主政的業務，國科會……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在又是經濟部了嘛！那你幹嘛要發言呢？你幹嘛要講這些呢？你為什麼要講這個？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會負責我們科學園區的開發，以及我們廠商將來在營運的時候各種需求的……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，你說經濟部嘛！經濟部長郭智輝說，2奈米要赴美設廠的時候，最起碼1.4奈米要落地生產。你說越快越好，他說要1.4奈米落地生產，這不是多頭馬車嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是落地生產，是下一代製程研發已經有一個階段可以試量產，不是正式量產。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以您打臉郭智輝部長的說法，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有打臉……"],["葛委員如鈞：你剛剛把球踢給經濟部，經濟部有經濟部的看法，你現在又要打臉郭部長。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有打臉，試產是研發過程當中非常重要的……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，主委，您是政委，你現在要打臉他，我支持你嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有打臉。"],["葛委員如鈞：你打臉他嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有打臉，我們是討論過的，我跟郭部長討論過。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以郭部長這個話要收回去，11月7號他已經收回了是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他不用收回去……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係啦！他的立場搖擺，我們也都很習慣，您的立場搖擺，我們也很習慣啦！但是拜託不要這樣，產業會不知道怎麼辦，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：產業知道怎麼辦，產業知道。"],["葛委員如鈞：產業知道，那我們知不知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：產業知道政府的規範。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們不知道是不是？我們知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們講的就是政府的規範。"],["葛委員如鈞：需不需要透明溝通啊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有透明啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：需不需要讓我們知道啊？我們大院不需要被溝通，不需要知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在公布的這種方案，就是我們前瞻製程研發一定會留在臺灣……"],["葛委員如鈞：留多久嘛？問題就是留多久嘛？你說馬上，他說1.4奈米……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，不好意思我打斷你，我時間有限，我告訴你應該要留多久，之前以2奈米製程為例，2奈米要在臺灣量產三年以後才能赴美設廠。"],["吳主任委員誠文：三年是說從討論開始、規劃，當地的政府補助、土地用地取得等等……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，我們現在就是自己在計算跟產業在討論，劉德音也非常關心嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：差不多就是三年……"],["葛委員如鈞：差不多嘛！所以最快是不是應該2028年才能去，不應該是明年？你說明年啊！你是不是當場承諾，到底是明年還是2028年？應該2028年才能去嘛！根留臺灣啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，你要聽我講啊！我說明年可以開始討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：明年可以開始討論，所以最快去設廠應該是2028年，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：差不多吧！"],["葛委員如鈞：差不多嘛！你當場承諾嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：最快，可能更久……"],["葛委員如鈞：根留臺灣，至少留到2028年，好不好？不然大家都非常緊張。根留臺灣不能只是用喊的，要符合產業的期望，符合我們臺灣的利益。劉德音也很緊張啊！他說，我們應該要根留臺灣啊！所以我想，站在您的立場應該要留在我們這裡，根留臺灣。","我時間有限，最後我有一個很重要的議題跟您討論，其實我們也是支持科技國防的立場，defense非常的重要，近期有一個「獵鴞專案」的計畫代號引發非常多的討論，但是我們作為科技界的，我們也發現這一家公司的背後其實是科技界的神人、宅男界的大神，就是開創了VR元年的一個傢伙，他成立了一個Oculus公司，被Facebook用20億美金併購。這個您知道嗎？我們國防採購的對象其實是科技研發界的大神，您知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不知道。"],["葛委員如鈞：不知道嘛！很好，我們今天有這樣健康的交流。這個人他是非常非常有名的，Palmer 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直接向行政法院提訴訟提行政訴訟 不先從訴院開始 訴院再訴院我直接就行政訴訟"},{"start":134.608,"end":134.788,"text":"前年度結算數"},{"start":163.613,"end":185.476,"text":"只要417萬,你們原來就編這麼少嗎?還是112年度?我們編列大概會參考上一年度,大概都是這些數字上下。但是這個今年度跟明年度高很多,比這個112年度的決算數高很多。"},{"start":188.124,"end":213.397,"text":"你們再順便說明好了我們順便再跟您說明有一些偵檢這個小事情但是我想不需要占很多的紙張非本會主管業務主決議那些可以不用列了不然要列很多我只是列幾個部分了要省紙張"},{"start":217.285,"end":237.525,"text":"這裡面這個114年度的預算書裡面提到這個113年度的這個一些立法院的決議這裡面要特別我們要去透過這樣的一個決議然後你們的辦理情形"},{"start":238.673,"end":264.068,"text":"然後我之前也一再的強調相關的這些因為網路越來越發達的情況之下網路越來越發達然後相關的這些網路詐騙也就利用這樣的一個機制然後很多的這個人民就受害所以這個部分是我一再"},{"start":266.107,"end":292.121,"text":"這希望那個我們公平會你在這個第一線因為涉及到雖然我們已經有這個打詐釋法但是你如果一直要到後面的刑事判決還不如亦為防範對不對事先防範而事先防範除了讓人民知道要小心不要被詐騙之外"},{"start":293.769,"end":315.701,"text":"更重要的公平會去查查這些網路的這些不實的無論是不實的廣告或是不實的類似像剛才我舉的那個案例去你們罰了嘛對不對類似像這樣的就是要去加強所以有時候"},{"start":317.008,"end":342.95,"text":"有時候是因為我們的法律趕不上網路的或是詐騙的多元所以必須要去修法這裡面你也提了你們修了但是只是修了原則只是修了你們公平交易法相關的這些行政規則那有沒有需要修到公平交易法"},{"start":345.442,"end":371.891,"text":"我想剛剛委員關心的這些現象其實是在執行方面的問題所以首先我們是透過相關的這個執法去修訂那當然我們的網路監控我們有專案的這個網路監控做這些處理所以這個因為你的有一計畫最後一段的一計畫而後將持續推動公平交易法修法"},{"start":373.368,"end":401.747,"text":"因為這個部分是這樣當然因為在打詐釋法的時候並沒有提到你們的法啦是都是其他的法但是我一直在強調前面的一個因為不管是警察那個都是後端的或是尤其是法官那個那個都是後端的所以這個部分要請這個公平會持續的來加強該修法的就修法行政規則能夠透過行政規則的當然就是基金當然"},{"start":403.345,"end":408.051,"text":"積極的去去去預為防範會更重要謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時13分）主席、各位委員。有請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好。根據114年度公平會的預算，罰金罰鍰的部分，本年度的預算數跟上年度的預算數是一樣，如果我們看前年度的決算數，只有2,451萬，這個是前（112）年度的決算數，這個決算數跟當時112年度的預算數有多少的落差？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個是有落差，跟委員說明為什麼會有落差，因為我們每一個處罰，當事人會去訴訟，我們要必須要等到訴訟官司打贏了、當事人繳錢之後才能入庫，所以預算跟決算中間會有落差。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我們看本席之前質詢，然後你們在10月7日答復本席的部分，第一個案罰了2,500萬，第二個案罰了1,100萬，這個是已經入庫了還是還沒有？"],["李主任委員鎂：有一件還在訴訟當中。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以你們罰了之後，他提起……"],["李主任委員鎂：他會提起訴訟。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：會先從訴願嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前都在訴訟中。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：會先從訴願嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：提行政訴訟，直接向行政法院提訴訟。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：提行政訴訟，不先從訴願開始？訴願再訴願，還是直接就行政訴訟？"],["李主任委員鎂：直接行政訴訟。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，所以這個部分是會有時間……"],["李主任委員鎂：時間的落差。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，這個部分還是要請公平會積極地來處理，因為你這邊要做好處理，人民才不會受害。"],["李主任委員鎂：是的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我們看你的預算書關於出國的部分，前（112）年度決算數只有417萬，你們原來就編這麼少嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們編列時會參考上一年度，大概都是這些數字上下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是今年度和明年度比112年度的決算數高很多，你們再用書面說明好了。"],["李主任委員鎂：好，我們再用書面跟您說明，有一些增減。"],["鄭天財Sra 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審計長我想請問你一下"},{"start":347.253,"end":363.677,"text":"這一個人事的這個部分要不要做一個全面性的一個檢討它的編制、原額還有實際聘用的原額那實際人力配置的原額有沒有合理化委員這個是一個要務實面對的一個問題現在好像總研的法是16萬人左右但是"},{"start":374.694,"end":380.678,"text":"實際也控制在十幾萬、十三萬人但是他的臨時人員有六萬人加起來就超過二十萬人所以他臨時人員加就往這邊走所以我的想法"},{"start":402.298,"end":417.148,"text":"那要不要好好檢討?要不要好好檢討嘛?好,我們會去查。好,那又要叫你寫報告了是不是?對,但是啊,我要多久?要不到人。要多久?要多久?你要寫那個可以執行的報告,你要不要寫痛不癢的啊?我不會!"},{"start":419.037,"end":445.409,"text":"我們出來都是...如果你寫的都不痛不癢那審計就不是在審計了你知道嗎對 我們會...好不好我們會記住以告好好好 那我再請主計長下來一下你稍微休息一下主計長時間先暫停一下主計長好 時間暫停來 來來來 那個主計長另外一個部分你知道那個...那個國民黨的這個財法法的部分讓我們經費都要大砍"},{"start":448.322,"end":450.718,"text":"你看這邊哪一個最有可能被砍的"},{"start":453.39,"end":478.988,"text":"因為我們現在目前也不知道說整個的一個需求要等到115年如果說實際在審查的時候才看那原則上因為你要為以籌謀啊是是是所以我們原則上現在有初步也跟各部會來我覺得讓你看一下體育經費好了你看我們這次台灣隊12強拿到世界冠軍情收的經費都起了很大的作用那個明年我們體育署編了44億那還有28億的國家體育建設"},{"start":483.291,"end":485.937,"text":"那如果照這個財法法通過的話那我們還會有這麼多錢嗎?"},{"start":488.868,"end":518.148,"text":"要對半砍要對半砍對如果按照國民黨這個版本的話體育補助都對半砍的話那我們還有機會拿到冠軍嗎?搞不好連這個這些球員的獎金都要對半喔原來700萬要變350嘛原則上都是這樣都會對半嘛所以球員獎金就會對半嘛所以說這個知識體大臺灣將來有沒有拿到冠軍啊跟這個預算有直接的關聯性嘛對不對"},{"start":520.889,"end":543.996,"text":"我就教你這個問題你們要點出來這個問題點很大有人在做禍國殃民的這個法案的時候你們真的要慎重遲遲的提醒因為這樣子的一個版本大概可能將來我們在預算編列是有很大的一個困難因為等於說大部分都要兌半減但是有一些相關很重要的部分剛剛的說體育建設"},{"start":545.716,"end":551.979,"text":"體育建設28億、剩下14億、體育署14億變12億、體育發展那球員的獎金7千萬就變3千5嘛而且相對的一個市權也沒有移轉像原來老人基金貼包括全民健保1074億市權沒有移轉老人基金貼還有這個國立高中職、老人基金貼、健保"},{"start":573.49,"end":597.836,"text":"都是我們在附大問題。都是大問題。好,那我就看一下嘛。你剛剛講的我就幫你做表做好了。是。債務複習嘛。金沈厚都是中央嘛。公共建設也是中央嘛。老農津貼嘛。還有直接補助縣市政府的。是。這裡頭有一個問題點。我必須說預算法第91條的時候大幅增加稅出稅入的時候要先徵詢行政院的意見。他們要先問你們的意見。"},{"start":599.059,"end":623.681,"text":"這是第一個嘛第二個如果萬一問題出現的時候是不是應該提案修正對不對這有沒有不曉得預算來源在哪裡還有預算法除了91條之外還有一個很重要以後如果真的給地方比較多的錢那地方的這個預算怎麼編怎麼用現在沒有直接的法令規範"},{"start":625.063,"end":648.513,"text":"有沒有沒有現在是用預算法而已對不對是可是預算法第96條的時候有一個地方政府預算應以法律定之現在有這個法律嗎沒有有一個地方他現在目前就只有一個地方制度法還有那個地方制度法是要修這長期本席的主當是不是也應該制定一個地方預算法"},{"start":657.374,"end":674.768,"text":"對目前我們是這樣子因為這個相關的預算的一個籌編的部分它是在地制法裡面有規範但是其他的部分我們在總預算中央總預算籌編的時候會對地方做一些的規範但是事實上是真的沒有在法律上做一個大臉的規範"},{"start":676.209,"end":694.02,"text":"如果毫無節制的任由他去使用這些預算的話那財政機率會更加的敗壞不是嗎所以我就問你嘛就96條的部分如果萬一有這個趨勢一直走下去的話畢竟立法院的生態就這樣子是不是應該制定一個地方預算法嗎"},{"start":695.344,"end":717.158,"text":"多層次的規範嘛你們思考一下好不好你們思考一下評估一下兩個禮拜給本席一個答覆應該用透過地方預算法根據預算法96條的部分來訂定來做一個規範規範地方政府預算怎麼用怎麼編可不可以"},{"start":718.538,"end":745.236,"text":"兩個禮拜你這個如果沒有編的話我現在想齁這個禍國殃民的法案齁如果通過的話真的後患無窮啊主席長我建議你最好要編啊因為地方制度法老師說齁什麼時候修法也不清楚他們就只是想要搶錢而已可是地方預算法如果讓他們毫無理智的通過地方預算法照至少一個一個規範因為以前的預算規範是在行政部門的內部監督嘛"},{"start":748.018,"end":748.399,"text":"主席主席國文"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時5分）謝謝主席，有請主計長跟審計長。"],["主席：好，主計長跟審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，前兩天主計總處有召開一個記者會，公布我們薪資的差距指標及中位數，高低薪資差距在2023年已經降到4.05倍，也就是自2012年以來降到了新低，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：某個程度就是我們的貧富差距似乎已經有緩和、改善，但是我個人一直認為這個薪資的指標非常的重要，你有沒有信心將來在2024之後差距低於4倍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，對於貧富的差距我們也一直都有在努力，所以政府很多的移轉支出也是讓它的差距再縮小，所以目前都是呈縮小的一個狀態來……"],["郭委員國文：對，本席要就教於您，因為前天卓院長有提到所謂的二上、一下、一平衡的數據，即經濟成長上、人均GDP上，然後失業率下，還有CPI一平衡，就是說在他心目中有4個指標其實是最關鍵的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：我建議是不是能夠二上、二下、一平衡，把中位數這個倍數的差距指標能夠降到4倍以下，主計總處能不能把這個列為你們接下來統計裡頭最重要的5個指標，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：第一個要跟主計長說明的就是這個，有一些相關指標其實非常重要，也讓院長知道一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["郭委員國文：還有一個貧富差距的指標是重要的，麻煩做一個轉達。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：那主計長稍作休息，我問一下審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：審計長，本席要就教於你，最近政府機關不論在中央跟地方，都收到許許多多的霸凌事件，本席在開完記者會之後就收到很多檢舉，特別是公部門。那我問你一下，審計部門到底有沒有察覺這個問題？你們有沒有做過類似的調查報告？從來都沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我向委員坦白一下，因為這個和財務上的關聯性不是那麼強，我們要查核的事項也還蠻多的，但是因為發現這個好像還蠻普遍的，所以我們會來就這個部分進行專案調查。"],["郭委員國文：你說專案調查，對，我還沒有問你，你就知道我要問什麼了，你算很聰明，也就是說，雖然在財務上沒有關聯性，但是財跟人有關聯，這是人的問題啊！對不對？人、財、事這三件事情都有關聯，人要依財去執行事情，不是嗎？那人出了問題的時候，跟你們審計有沒有關聯？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：以這樣的看法，應該就是有關聯。"],["郭委員國文：你知道嗎？對人事行政總處你要先去做一個審計調查，人事行政總處居然公布一個所謂的反霸凌的行政規範，在公布完之後就沒它的事了，任何一個單位有沒有做人事的相關指引？都沒有，它都不曉得，一問三不知。在記者會現場還跟法務部互踢皮球，真的是醜態百出啊！所以我覺得審計長應該要把這個列為一個很重要的重點。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會……"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候要提出報告？你不會等半年之後才提出吧？還是一年之後？你的報告什麼時候要提出來？最近在講霸凌防制專法，現在大家都如火如荼在推動……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為它有全面性的問題，有制度性的問題，我們一個月內提出來。"],["郭委員國文：一個月，好。對，要從制度、心態、文化各種方面切入。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["郭委員國文：另外還有一個部分也跟你們有相關，你知道最近的整個霸凌事件也有人講可能是跟人力有關聯，就是人力分配不足，那就牽涉到總員額法，我們的總員額法是在2000年的時候通過的，是25年前的產物，扣除掉有一次從十七萬三降到十六萬九的部分，又增加了司法人力1,100的部分，然後你又把公立醫院去除掉，目前要控管的人數大概是14萬，人事行政總處要控制14萬，可是這個總員額法是在25年前通過的，那時候是在流行小政府這種說法的情況底下所制定的，可是這幾年來凡事都希望政府多做一點，業務新增或者是虛擬世界對實體造成衝擊的業務也增加很多，在這種情況底下，結果在控管員額卻不斷的外包、控管員額卻不斷委外的情況底下，業務沒有少啊！審計長，我想請問一下，對人事的這個部分要不要做一個全面性的檢討，包括它的編制員額、實際聘用的員額還有實際人力配置的員額有沒有合理化？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，委員，這是一個要務實面對的問題。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在的總員額法是16萬人左右，但是實際上也控制在十幾萬……"],["郭委員國文：13萬而已啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：13萬人，但是它的臨時人員有6萬人，加起來就差不多20萬。"],["郭委員國文：變成19萬，所以這個總員額法在控制什麼啊？在控制什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以要務實面對，臨時人員增加啊！就是往這邊走。"],["郭委員國文：所以啊！不敷實際的需求嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！"],["郭委員國文：那要不要好好檢討嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我們會去查。"],["郭委員國文：好，又要叫你寫報告了，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，但是我跟他說要不到人。"],["郭委員國文：要多久？要寫那個可以執行的報告，你不要寫那個不痛不癢的啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會，我們寫出來的都是有憑有據。"],["郭委員國文：如果你寫的都是不痛不癢的，那審計就不是在審計了，你知道嗎？好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們會據實以告。"],["郭委員國文：好，那我再請主計長上來一下，你稍微休息一下。主計長，你知道國民黨修正財劃法的部分讓我們很多經費都要大砍，你看這邊哪一個最有可能被砍？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們目前也不知道整個的需求，要等到115年實際在審查的時候才看，原則上，因為以我們來講……"],["郭委員國文：你要未雨綢繆啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以我們原則上現在有初步也跟各部會來……"],["郭委員國文：我就讓你看一些體育經費好了，你看我們這次臺灣隊在12強賽拿到世界冠軍，情蒐的經費都起了很大的作用，明年我們體育署編了44億，那還有28億的國家體育建設，如果照這個財劃法的版本通過的話，那我們還會有這麼多錢嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：要對半砍。"],["郭委員國文：要對半砍，對，如果按照國民黨這個版本的話，體育補助都對半砍了，那我們還有機會拿到冠軍嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，國防經費也是要對半砍。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！搞不好連這些球員的獎金都要對半，原來700萬，現在要變三百五嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上都是這樣。"],["郭委員國文：對，都會對半嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：球員的獎金就會對半，所以說這個茲事體大，臺灣將來有沒有拿到冠軍跟這個預算有直接的關聯性，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：我就教於你，這個問題你們要點出來啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：這個問題點很大啊！有人在做禍國殃民的法案時，你們真的要慎重並時時的提醒啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這樣子的一個版本可能將來我們在預算編列是有很大的困難，因為等於說大部分都要對半減。"],["郭委員國文：對，對半減啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：有一些很重要的相關部分……"],["郭委員國文：像剛剛說的體育建設，體育建設28億，剩下14億啊！體育署的體育發展從44億變12億，球員的獎金7,000萬就變三千五嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：而且相對的事權也沒有移轉，像原來的老農津貼，包括全民健保，1,047億都是我們……"],["郭委員國文：對，事權沒有移轉……"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，還有包括國立高中職，還有省立的原來那些醫院都是我們在負擔。"],["郭委員國文：還有老農津貼、健保，都是大問題。好，那就看一下，你剛剛講的，我就幫你把表都做好了。債務付息，精省後都是中央，公共建設也是中央，老農津貼，還有直接補助縣市政府的。這裡頭有個問題點，我必須說預算法第九十一條規定，大幅增加歲出、歲入的時候要先徵詢行政院的意見，他們要先問你們的意見？這是第一個。第二個，萬一問題出現的時候，是不是應該提案修正？對不對？這有沒有？不曉得預算來源在哪裡。預算法除了第九十一條之外，還有一個很重要，以後如果真的給地方比較多的錢，地方的預算怎麼編、怎麼用，現在有沒有直接的法令規範？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["郭委員國文：現在是用預算法而已，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：可是預算法第九十六條有一個「地方政府預算，另以法律定之」，現在有這個法律嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["郭委員國文：有一個地方……"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前就只有一個地方制度法，還有……"],["郭委員國文：地方制度法是要修，這是本席長期的主張，是不是也應該再制訂一個地方預算法？對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：對不對？是不是？有不一樣的地方，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，目前我們是這樣子，因為相關預算的籌編是在地制法裡面有規範，但是其他的部分，我們在中央政府總預算籌編的時候，會對地方做一些的規範。事實上，真的沒有在法律上特別的規範。"],["郭委員國文：對，如果毫無節制地任由它使用這些預算的話，財政紀律會更加的敗壞，不是嗎？所以我就問你，就第九十六條，萬一有這個趨勢一直走下去的話，畢竟立法院的生態就這樣，是不是應該制定一個地方預算法來多層次的規範？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們再來研究。"],["郭委員國文：你們思考一下，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們會。"],["郭委員國文：你們思考一下、評估一下……"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員的意見，我們會納入研究。"],["郭委員國文：兩個禮拜答復本席，應該要用透過地方預算法，根據預算法第九十六條來訂定、做一個規範，規範地方政府預算怎麼用、怎麼編，兩個禮拜，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：這個如果沒有編的話，我在想這個禍國殃民的法案如果通過，真的後患無窮。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，我會建議你最好要編。因為地方制度法，老實說，什麼時候修法也不清楚，他們就只想要搶錢而已，可是如果讓他們毫無理智地通過，至少有一個地方預算法來規範。因為以前的預算規範是在行政部門的內部監督，中央可以規範他，將來是誰在監督這個預算？是地方的議會。地方議會如果沒有一個基本的法案來做依據、規範的話，變成地方政府要怎麼用就怎麼用，甚至地方議會跟地方政府一起用，甚至也有可能變肉桶，就是要有一個法來進行規範，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，謝謝。主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝國文。","接著，請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157584","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966a70fea7f5e01a798c25d3d95b2a469816f2411ecd13e000b091ed520d06e93fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:06:35 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我們有請主委好 有請我主委"},{"start":16.843,"end":43.475,"text":"主委好,我想先讓您來看看這張照片這張照片我想這一次的是世界十二強的這個賽事您應該也是非常興奮的去看見了我們這一次拿到了冠軍就像您當年也帶領了我們在威廉波特上面這個少棒大賽的一個冠軍那我這邊就找到了一些您過去的照片那這個呢其實就要串聯到我下一個題目"},{"start":44.375,"end":69.102,"text":"就是說這麼多年來我們其實距離上次打敗日本已經32年但是這一次我們打敗其實有一個很重要的研究是在於這個精準運動科學研究但是我想除了這個東西我們是不是國科會還可以出更多的力氣來進一步協助我們台灣的運動發展呢我們現在有沒有一些具體的規劃或行動"},{"start":71.072,"end":88.864,"text":"有,我們目前有,國科會本身有精準運動科學的計畫這是在我們的人文處那我們的產學處其實也有運動科技產學合作的計畫也在推動當中那我們也編列預算協助我們的教育部體育署也在推動相關的這個體育的選手、教練"},{"start":94.048,"end":97.39,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":111.816,"end":125.488,"text":"科技預算我們也允許國家運動科學中心的研究員也可以申請我們國科會的計畫所以現在逐步在推動當中將來我們預算會逐年再增加吸引更多科技的人才進到這個運動的領域"},{"start":127.209,"end":147.375,"text":"我想其實體力就是國力啦所以這件事情真的是需要國科會來大力的支持讓我們這件事情這次得到12強的冠軍不會只是曇花一現而是未來在世世代代我們的孩子我們的下一代都不用就是自己靠自己的努力靠自己的打拼自己去摸索而是有國家的支持"},{"start":148.655,"end":164.729,"text":"所以也非常高興的聽到剛剛主委有說會結合科技來協助我們更多的台灣英雄不過還是要回到剛剛講的這個精準運動科學剛剛培育委員提到了這個案例我希望就是說主委要盡快的去進行調查因為我們在做一些研究的時候還是要依循倫理不能夠讓我們過去在傳統在體育訓練的時候"},{"start":168.552,"end":190.061,"text":"則成為教練用各種理由、方式來威脅強迫選手進行一些不當的訓練。這件事情我希望主委到時候這份調查報告也提供到辦公室。好,謝謝,謝謝委員。那針對於剛剛講的那些運動科技管理的部分,殘學合作的部分,我希望是說我們可以會後跟主委約個時間來我們辦公室再來詳細的討論。"},{"start":192.282,"end":215.874,"text":"因為我對這塊非常非常的在乎再來下一個部分就是國家核心關鍵技術的部分因為這個我們在2023年12月5號已經公告了首波的22項技術涵蓋了國防科技、太空農業、半導體等等資通安全技術領域那今年11月1號的時候國科會也預告國家核心關鍵技術項目以及技術主管機關修正的草案已經新增了10項涵蓋了"},{"start":217.935,"end":235.142,"text":"太空、量子科技、半導體及能源目前我們累計有32項這件事情除了要保護國家重要的技術之外也是要符合全球產業的一個趨勢之前是有說明說年底的時候會召開國家核心關鍵技術審議會來進行這些新增技術項目的認定我想問一下現在預告到11月15號我們現在"},{"start":244.306,"end":247.048,"text":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":268.769,"end":270.731,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":289.387,"end":312.854,"text":"當時我們也去拜會了幾個民主黨的議員拜會了一位民主黨的議員那後來我去國會山莊又拜會了民主黨跟共和黨的議員他們都強調一個很重要的重點就是抗中是他們的兩黨共識所以相關的川普總統的發言也都是再度的去強調這個保護主義的部分所以我想面對這個川普的勝選我們接下來我們台灣跟全球半導體產業您認為會產生什麼樣子的影響"},{"start":316.135,"end":318.076,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":332.975,"end":361.747,"text":"因為我想因為之前他也是在選舉的過程之中有講到這個臺灣有偷賣這個晶片過去的這個問題對那我想這應該也是要適時我們要跟川普政府來做更多的溝通才對是其實我們行政院總統府這邊在選前都已經做好因應之道了我們已經有長期的這個討論那目前的這個做法其實不需要做太大的調整我們一定會跟美國會合作的非常好"},{"start":362.567,"end":380.222,"text":"因為我看到新聞報導是有講到我們有一些產業的龍頭們大家都非常的緊張對於他的這樣子的發言那我也希望說國科會組會也要來協助我們的產業們一起來做一些說明那最後呢我想因為我的時間已經到還有兩分鐘耶非常好還有一題可以問"},{"start":382.244,"end":387.668,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":413.047,"end":436.396,"text":"經創主機及大南方主機建置完成之後我們就會有4個AI超級電腦但是我發現有9成的算力集中在南部地區如果排除了輝達的台北灣我們現在高度集中97.8%都在大南方我就想請教主委這個面對我們台灣的這種風災、地震等等"},{"start":437.176,"end":440.82,"text":"我們要如何來增加我們的AI的韌性呢?因為過度集中這個韌性您的因應計劃是什麼?"},{"start":443.015,"end":472.09,"text":"報告委員過去其實我們在民間的建制大部分集中在北部所以北部的商業其實是現在是相當高的那將來在做這個主權AI的時候我們的確是需要分散所以最近這幾年我們重點會投資在南部就是為了要分散這個風險那將來因為算力本身是透過網路是你建在哪裡其實都可以用但是在台灣本島我們的確是要分散這些風險所以目前必須要加強在南部的建制"},{"start":472.75,"end":499.537,"text":"現在北部的這個算力的一個狀態是多少呢目前在民間我們沒有民間很多的企業並沒有公佈他們的這個算力的這個程度因為很多是屬於這個商業自主在運作我們使用民間的這個算例比如說Google的Telacenter在台灣是非常非常大的Microsoft、Amazon這些都有"},{"start":500.017,"end":502.038,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":518.507,"end":541.565,"text":"但是我想因為剛剛主委是有提到說過去都集中在北部現在我們要補強我們的南部嘛聽起來是這樣但是我覺得我們還是要去了解我們到底北部有多少嘛這樣才會知道我們是不是過度集中吧這部分我覺得主委還是要做一個了解啦另外一個就是說上次我提到就算力國家隊的部分我想這個應該就是結合在您剛剛說的這個北部民間企業的部分對嗎是這個我們會整合在一起是"},{"start":542.045,"end":543.967,"text":"第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時6分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。先讓您看看這張照片，我想這一次世界十二強賽事，你應該非常興奮的看到了我們拿到冠軍，就像您當年也帶領了我們在威廉波特少棒大賽拿到冠軍，所以我就找到一些您過去的照片，這其實也是要串聯到我下一個題目。這麼多年來，距離上次我們打敗日本已經32年，但是這一次我們打敗日本，其實有一個很重要的研究，就是精準運動科學研究，但是我想除了這個研究，是不是國科會還可以出更多的力氣來進一步協助我們臺灣的運動發展呢？你們現在有沒有一些具體的規劃或行動？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，目前國科會本身有精準運動科學計畫，這在我們人文處，還有產學處也有運動科技產學合作計畫，也在推動當中，同時，我們也編列預算協助教育部體育署，推動相關體育選手、教練跟我們科技領域的教練和研究生搭配，進行相關的運動科技研究。另外，教育部也成立了國家運動科學中心，明年度的科技預算，我們也允許國家運動科學中心的研究員申請國科會計畫，這些現在都逐步在推動當中，將來我們的預算會逐年再增加，吸引更多科技人才進到運動領域。"],["張委員雅琳：其實體力就是國力，這件事情真的需要國科會大力支持，讓這次得到十二強冠軍的成果，不會只是曇花一現，而是未來世世代代的我們的孩子、我們的下一代，都不用自己靠自己的努力、靠自己的打拚，自己去摸索，而是有國家的支持。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：所以也非常高興聽到剛剛主委說會結合科技來協助更多臺灣英雄。不過，還是要回到剛剛講的精準運動科學，剛剛培瑜委員提到的案例，我希望主委要儘快進行調查，因為我們在做研究的時候，還是要依循倫理，不能像過去傳統的體育訓練，教練用各種理由、方式來威脅、強迫選手進行一些不當的訓練，有關這件事情的調查報告，希望主委也可以提供給我辦公室。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。針對主委剛剛提到的運動科技管理以及產學合作部分，會後希望可以跟主委約個時間，來我辦公室再詳細討論，因為我對這塊非常非常在乎。","再來，下一個部分就是國家核心關鍵技術的部分，因為我們在2023年12月5號已經公告了首波的22項技術，涵蓋了國防科技、太空、農業、半導體等等資通安全技術領域。今年11月1號的時候，國科會也預告國家核心關鍵技術項目以及技術主管機關修正草案已經新增了10項，涵蓋了太空、量子科技、半導體及能源，目前我們累計是有32項，這件事情除了是要保護國家重要的技術之外，也是要符合全球產業的一個趨勢。之前是有說明過年底的時候會召開國家核心關鍵技術審議會，來進行這些新增技術項目的認定，那我想問一下，現在預告到11月15號截止，我們現在從各界蒐集的意見，目前可以歸納出哪些呢？針對這10項，還會有新增或是調整的部分嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們這10項經過審慎的研究，然後在會議通過以後，目前我們是在做預告，預告到目前為止，產業界其實沒有特別的意見提出來，所以看起來是滿順利的。"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在聽起來應該就是這10項，不會再有調整，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前沒有要調整，美國方面也沒有特別要求我們再特別注意哪些項目。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為我想因應美國的大選，新的總統已經確定是川普了，今年9月的時候，我跟民眾黨、國民黨三黨的委員，我們剛好也有去紐約做聯合國的一個視導團，當時我們也去拜會了一位民主黨的議員，後來我去國會山莊時，又拜會了民主黨跟共和黨的議員，他們都強調一個很重要的重點，就是抗中是他們兩黨的共識，所以相關的川普總統的發言也都是再度地去強調保護主義的部分，所以我想面對川普的勝選，接下來，我們臺灣跟全球半導體產業，您認為會產生什麼樣的影響？身為臺灣的國科會主委，您覺得我們應該如何因應？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我覺得我們跟美國的關係只會更緊密，未來一定是會加強這方面的合作。"],["張委員雅琳：所以您認為我們目前應該不太會有什麼樣子的影響，不太需要什麼樣子的因應嗎？因為之前他也是在選舉的過程之中有講到臺灣有偷賣晶片過去的問題嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我想這應該也是要適時，我們要跟川普政府來做更多的溝通才對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實我們行政院、總統府這邊，在選前都已經做好因應之道，我們已經有長期的討論，目前這個作法其實不需要做太大的調整，我們一定會跟美國合作得非常好。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我看到新聞報導有講到，我們有一些產業的龍頭們，大家都非常的緊張，對於他這樣子的發言，我也希望國科會主委要來協助我們的產業們一起來做一些說明。","最後，我想要問的是大南方產業生態系，因為我們現在是說要讓臺灣成為一個人工智慧之島，所以我們其實有這個方案，但是我發現，我們目前在擴算力的部分，臺灣公部門的算力是19 petaFLOPS，公私部門的總算力是54 petaFLOPS，預估未來的技術發展，還有國內的需求，我們目前的目標2028年會提升到480 petaFLOPS，晶創主機及大南方主機建置完成後，我們就會有四個AI超級電腦。但是我發現有九成的算力集中在南部地區，如果排除了輝達的Taipei-1，我們現在高度集中，97.8%都在大南方，我想請教主委，面對我們臺灣的這種風災、地震等等，我們要如何來增加我們的AI韌性呢？因為過度集中，這個韌性您的因應計畫是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，過去其實我們在民間的建置，大部分集中在北部，所以北部的算力現在其實是相當高的，將來在做主權AI的時候，我們的確是需要分散，所以最近這幾年，我們重點會投資在南部，就是為了要分散這個風險。將來，因為算力本身是透過網路，無論你建在哪裡，其實都可以用啦，但是在臺灣本島，我們的確是要分散這些風險，所以目前必須要加強在南部的建置。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我想問一下，現在我們北部算力的狀態是多少呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前在民間，民間很多的企業並沒有公布他們的算力程度，因為很多是屬於商業自主在運作，我們使用……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我之前……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們使用民間的算力，譬如說Google的Data Center在臺灣是非常非常大的，Microsoft、Amazon這些都有，臺灣自己的企業也有建他們的算力，也非常的多，這是符合現在的需求。我們政府算力的增加，是要彌補在南部的缺陷，所以現在重點投資南部，但是也會引起企業將來也會往南部再投資更多的算力，所以我們……"],["張委員雅琳：因為剛剛主委是有提到過去都集中在北部，現在我們要補強我們的南部嘛，聽起來是這樣，但是我覺得我們還是要去了解，我們在北部到底有多少嘛，這樣才會知道我們是不是過度集中吧，這部分我覺得主委還是要做一個了解啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：另外一個就是，上一次我有提到算力國家隊的部分，我想這應該就是結合在您剛剛說的北部民間企業的部分，對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這個我們會整合在一起。"],["張委員雅琳：我想這個部分，因為我的時間已經到了，我們就是連同剛剛那個未來運動科技產業的研究，我們一起在辦公室繼續聊好了，謝謝你。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來有請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157583","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157583","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966979444a92e29bd65a85017ab97aa926f6f2411ecd13e000be7b941279cec53335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:01:10 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可以這麼解讀嗎可受公平 所以並不是 我願意給你說明的機會並不是閉門會議 是不是現在外界有說 下個禮拜要開一個閉門會議喔 是不是請告訴我 針對主席的 針對本席的提問下個禮拜12月4號 是不是閉門會議不是一個秘密的會議 還好"},{"start":244.531,"end":261.455,"text":"因為本期也希望公平會應該要站在最重要的原則是公平的那本期再請教這個案子從5月份接案11月8號齊備你們在這段時間也努力辛苦那也開了4次的公定會下個禮拜12月10號你也準備要開這個講座談會也不是應該是準備要開會議成如剛剛所說的12月10號那請問什麼時候會給社會大眾一個一個"},{"start":274.318,"end":277.722,"text":"請針對本席的提問我們已經跳動到下一趴了啦請你針對本席的提問"},{"start":296.201,"end":297.302,"text":"本席具體建議因為合併之後他市佔率大概八成"},{"start":313.502,"end":313.642,"text":"這是應該的"},{"start":341.53,"end":341.65,"text":"劉慧卿議員"},{"start":371.89,"end":372.01,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":388.102,"end":392.026,"text":"你是明年1月16號嘛1月31號會不會在你1月30法定12月19必要時的延長我努力在這個盡快的時間去處理好本席就是希望在你的任內務必完成達成成功好吧"},{"start":408.228,"end":408.428,"text":"公平會議"},{"start":426.149,"end":434.592,"text":"公平問題不公平競爭行為調查處理以及多層次成銷的部分你編列了226萬9千當然比去年我們來做一個比較因為這一個問題也充斥著社會的一個不安所以在108年你是24件"},{"start":444.076,"end":465.381,"text":"到了去年統計是71件今年應該會更多因為社會整個經濟產業生活的一個多元性社會更多所以你編列到了這個預算但是你只有比去年113年多了多少19000塊我覺得蠻離譜的你的案件一直在增加"},{"start":466.321,"end":484.191,"text":"當然我們立法委員你們預算送到這裡我們沒有辦法幫你加預算但是你們在編列的時候你是第三公正單位啊你看到社會的面向是必須的是需要的是必要的阿你只有增加一萬九你是表示什麼不需要做你表示你的成效不錯"},{"start":485.231,"end":511.297,"text":"你光光從21件到71件到今年我看破百那為什麼會如此的便利預算本席覺得很納悶這第一個喔所以本席要請教不動產的業者呢虛有不實以及引人錯誤廣告行為平仁對不對那你也成立了幾個案子喔但是不動產的經貿交道這個這個交往非常的龐大你要如何的加強查處"},{"start":512.737,"end":535.557,"text":"這一個違反的行為以維護整個消費者在購屋的一個權利因為本席認為如果建商他不他不會因為貴額尿出塞影響的整個層面你要讓消費者安心大家可以成為加成的一個經濟市場購屋市場的一個穩定性跟安全性這才是我們要的嘛對不對 是"},{"start":536.778,"end":564.517,"text":"所以這個部分要怎麼加強呢我想我們對這個不動檔的查緝我們有這個網路監控或者是329檔期等等我們都有專人在關注如果有不實的情形一定是會查辦當然是你的職責要做嘛所以本席就告訴你社會面向需要的是這樣子你增加一個一萬九千塊哇我們看預算都看得很詳細耶我想如果能夠得到立法院的支持我們將來在編預算上面可以再做一些調整那這"},{"start":565.117,"end":584.194,"text":"立法院已經告訴你不夠是你自己編列的你怎麼不檢討你自己把責任推給立法院呢對不對所以你們在編列預算的時候請謹慎之社會面向需要的請謹慎之最後一分鐘發主席來公平會在114請你把剛剛你的經濟方案給本席書面資料給本席"},{"start":588.377,"end":598.4,"text":"那114年你的資訊業務跟經濟分析的這個資料裡頭你編列了545萬7千元你比113年度是增加9萬8所以本席要告訴你從109年你每一年被檢舉的案件平均是超過了1850件但是你沒有結案的占你審議比的比例是110年了是5.68但是去年是7.64所以是增加的"},{"start":618.387,"end":624.371,"text":"總未結案的案件呢在110年雖然降到7.66110年但是馬上又升上來111跟112再升到9.25那這顯示什麼你的案件辦案結的辦結的情況是有很大的改善空間因為他不斷的在增加所以本席認為呢人民花了這麼多的納稅錢我們希望做整個產業資訊的系統你應該要去加強"},{"start":648.187,"end":665.392,"text":"而且你要優化你執行的品質啊你怎麼可能說你的慰藉的案子越來越增加那怎麼對呢你是人民的靠山啊第三公正單位耶中立單位耶這是我們非常敬佩的啊你怎麼慰藉的越來越多呢那怎麼辦"},{"start":667.807,"end":668.087,"text":"蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":688.573,"end":711.325,"text":"第一個政府當社會面向有所調整的時候政府應該要與時進進精準方案這才是我要本席要聽的答案好不好你把你為什麼慰藉一直增加是怠惰嗎本席本來不應當也不願意講出這個話但是既然你都推給社會面向我就要請你把你的經濟方案拿出來好不好"},{"start":713.496,"end":723.48,"text":"多久時間可以出來我想兩個禮拜之內兩個禮拜將你的精準方案未結的方案怎麼樣去精緊方案拿出來給本席加油"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":389,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時1分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，再邀請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好，媒體11月13號報導，公平會在2024年國際競爭網絡結合研討會當中你特別提出，在全球化與數位經濟的興起之下，企業透過併購壯大實力已經是必然的趨勢，併購案大幅增加，但是也帶來市場過度集中的風險，威脅了市場自由以及公平競爭的可能，進而也深怕會損害到消費者的權益。因此，主管機關單位的管制如何與時俱進，是競爭法一個非常重要的課題。這是你在這個研討會當中的論點，本席非常的讚許，所以我們就用這個論點來討論，因為本席也跟你討論過幾次Uber Eats跟foodpanda的併購案，到目前為止，從你們接案到現在經過多久時間？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們5月14日接，11月8號文件才齊備。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是我們之前講的，你說一直請他們再補資料。"],["李主任委員鎂：要補件。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以5月份的時候接，11月8號終於完成。"],["李主任委員鎂：文件齊備。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前你們在審議當中，你們開過4次的公聽會，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：齊備之前，我們就已經陸續有開過一些座談會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，4次的公聽會，就是從5月接案開始，你開了幾場公聽會？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們全省開了4場，另外還有書面徵詢各單位的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會再開公聽會？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會再開公聽會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就4場公聽會，我們一步一步嘛！接下來，下個禮拜你有一個外面所謂的閉門會議，也就是你這個座談會據聞只有要求平臺業者來，而且是不公開的，是不是如此？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有這回事嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有這個會議……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候要開？"],["李主任委員鎂：下個禮拜，12月會開……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下個禮拜什麼時候開？"],["李主任委員鎂：12月4號。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：12月4號開這個座談會，這樣的名稱對嗎？座談會，閉門座談會？"],["李主任委員鎂：其實……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個立場有沒有公平性的問題？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有不公平的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再請教，參與的人是誰呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：參與的這一次是有學者、專家，還有跨部會各機關，還有可能在平臺業務有競爭的人，因為我們這個案子……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：平臺業務有競爭的人，所以重點是在這裡嘛！那這兩家會不會邀請去？"],["李主任委員鎂：這兩家不會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不行嘛！這樣的會議為什麼要說不公開呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：其實不是不公開，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是不公開，那是公開囉？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們公開邀請的對象在各地的座談會都做過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛才說明了，所以不是不公開，也不是閉門會議，是嗎？可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：在公平會主持的會議，但這件事情是可受公評……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我願意給你說明的機會，所以並不是閉門會議，是不是？現在外界有說，下個禮拜要開一個閉門會議，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，我舉個例子，全聯和大潤發要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對主席的提問，下個禮拜12月4號是不是閉門會議？"],["李主任委員鎂：它不是一個秘密的會議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是一個秘密會議，還好，因為本席也希望公平會應該要站在最重要的原則，就是公平。本席再請教，這個案子從5月份接案，11月8號文件齊備，你們在這段時間也努力辛苦，也開了4次的公聽會，下個禮拜12月4號，你也準備要開會議，請問什麼時候會給社會大眾一個答案，會不會合併通過？"],["李主任委員鎂：容許我說明一下，譬如全聯跟大潤發的結合，我們問了各界意見之後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問……"],["李主任委員鎂：一定會問同業的意見……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，我們已經跳到下一個部分了，請你針對本席的提問……"],["李主任委員鎂：什麼時候會做決定，因為它的法定期間是12月19號之前要做出決定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下個月的12月19號嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：下個月。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，下個月的12月19號會做出決定嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：法定期間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席具體建議，因為合併之後，它的市占率大概八成，本席也幾次跟你表明本席的立場，因為外送市場失去了競爭的平衡點，會讓消費者無從選擇，深怕會成為壟斷，全世界很多的國家是拒絕的，當然，我方有我方的立場，所以我們仍舊希望在勞工跟消費者的權利上，公平會必須要善盡機關之責，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：這是應該的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果您回答本席這是應該的……"],["李主任委員鎂：所有的因素都要考量……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席應該可以知道12月19號大概的方向，就是以勞工的權利，外送員真的太辛苦，以及消費者的權利，這是民主國家必要的必須條件。"],["李主任委員鎂：這些因素跟競爭的影響都會進入考量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個案子就會在12月19號跟社會大眾說明清楚，有一個答案、結果。"],["李主任委員鎂：12月19號是一個期限，必要的時候可以延長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你認為會不會延長？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個要看我們進入委員會討論時各個委員的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那本席要請教，在明年你退休之前，你是明年1月16號……"],["李主任委員鎂：1月31號。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：法定是12月19日，必要時得延長，會不會在明年你……"],["李主任委員鎂：我努力儘快去處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，本席就是希望在你的任內務必完成，達陣成功，好不好？這也是在你的任內最重要的一個基準點……"],["李主任委員鎂：我努力這樣做，但還是要看委員會討論的情形。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，所以你朝這個方向，就是希望在你的任內完成這一項的結果。"],["李主任委員鎂：我努力試試看。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。接下來，本席要請問公平會，你們針對「不公平競爭行為調查處理及多層次傳銷管理」的部分編列了226萬9,000元，我們與去年比較，因為這個問題也讓社會充斥著不安，在108年的處分案件是24件，去年統計是71件，今年應該會更多，因為社會整個經濟、產業、生活的多元性，所以會更多，所以你編列了這個預算，但是你只有比去年（113年）多了1萬9,000塊，我覺得蠻離譜的，你的案件一直在增加，當然，你們預算送到這裡，我們立法委員沒有辦法幫你加預算，但是你們在編列的時候，你是第三公正單位，你看到社會的面向是必須的、是需要的、是必要的，你只有增加1萬9,000塊，是表示不需要做，還是表示你的成效不錯？光是從21件，到71件，到今年我看可能都破百，為什麼會如此編列預算？本席覺得很納悶，這是第一個，所以本席要請教。","不動產的業者虛偽不實以及引人錯誤廣告行為頻仍，你也成立了幾個案子，但是不動產交易的金額非常龐大，你要如何加強查處這個違反的行為，以維護整個消費者在購屋的權益？本席認為，建商不應該因為幾個老鼠屎而影響了整個層面，你要讓消費者安心，大家可以成為加乘的一個經濟市場，讓購屋市場具有穩定性跟安全性，這才是我們要的，對不對？所以這個部分要怎麼加強呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對不動產的查緝有網路監控或者是對329檔期等等我們都有專人在關注，如果有不實的情形一定會查辦……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是你的職責要做嘛！所以本席就告訴你，社會面向需要的是這樣子，但你的經費增加1萬9,000塊，我們看預算都看得很詳細！"],["李主任委員鎂：我想如果能夠得到立法院的支持，我們將來在編預算上面可以再做一些調整，那……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：立法院已經告訴你不夠，是你自己編列的，你怎麼不檢討你自己，怎麼把責任推給立法院呢？所以你們在編列預算的時候，請謹慎之，社會面向需要的請謹慎之。","最後1分鐘，報告主席。請主委把你的精進方案的書面資料給本席。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：114年你的資訊業務跟經濟分析的資料裡頭，你編列了545萬7,000元，比起113年度是增加9萬8,000元，所以本席要告訴你，從109年起，你每一年被檢舉的案件平均都超過了1,850件，但是沒有結案的案件占案件審議比率，110年是5.68%，去年是7.64%，所以是增加的，而總未結案件占案件審議比率，雖然110年降到7.66%，但是馬上又升上來，111年跟112年再升到9.25%，這顯示什麼？顯示你的案件辦結情況是有很大的改善空間，因為它不斷地在增加。","所以本席認為人民花了這麼多納稅錢，我們希望做整個產業資訊的系統，你應該要去加強，而且你要優化你執行的品質，你怎麼可能未結的案子越來越增加，那怎麼對呢？你是人民的靠山，是第三公正單位、中立單位耶！這是我們非常敬佩的，但你怎麼未結的越來越多呢？那怎麼辦？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個未結案件我們確實還有努力的空間，不過因為案情的複雜度還有目前整個經濟發展的情況很多，案件的類型會有一些挑戰，我想我們還是要加油。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，本來本席要贊許你非常有guts，但是如果依照你剛才的說法，你是統統都推給社會面向，第一個，當社會面向有所調整的時候，政府應該要與時俱進、精準方案，這才是本席要聽的答案，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼你的未結一直增加？是怠惰嗎？本席本來不應當也不願意講出這個話，但是既然你都推給社會面向，我就要請你把你的精準方案拿出來，好不好？多久時間可以出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想兩個禮拜之內"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩個禮拜將你的精準方案，未結的方案怎麼樣去精進，把方案拿出來給本席。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油！"],["主席：請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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超過楊金榮總裁的百分之二目前來講因為幾個颱風連續來影響是有一點在蔬果方面我們來看請那個審計長一起上來好不好主計長先不要離開"},{"start":260.782,"end":281.67,"text":"委員好審計長不然那個主計長一起先問主計長是請問你啊勞動部你有沒有主計室的主任有沒有有有主計條片勞發署有沒有主計處的主任有沒有有"},{"start":282.87,"end":295.524,"text":"北分署有沒有主計處的主任有沒有?有!好!北分署每個月3萬塊電費為了謝宜柔她就這樣整個漂亮就漂亮了這樣電費一共要開3萬你們的主計、主任是幹什麼的啊?"},{"start":301.77,"end":327.487,"text":"為什麼給他用呢我們的主計各個單位的主計主任等於是擺設了首長要怎麼用就怎麼用理了不理你們而且拉發署還用安定基金400萬去辦演唱會替尋民處辦演唱會你們的主任是幹什麼的執辦的你們主任啥事也不做這個錢要經過主計是同意的"},{"start":331.991,"end":332.834,"text":"主計長要經過主計室同意"},{"start":336.392,"end":365.12,"text":"一般電費來講的話不是因為它是業務單位提出來核銷嘛那我們就一個內部審核就它一個內容進行審查還有包括有審查嗎根本沒有審查啊這是現在的主計在各個單位的主計是形同虛設讓各個單位的首長予取予求目前是這個樣子啊"},{"start":366.232,"end":393.352,"text":"他可以用4百萬辦演唱會而且挪用了勞動基金請問可以挪用勞動基金嗎?可以嗎?這個部分就是因為他勞動基金他本身也有編列啦編列媒體的一個宣傳會啦那是媒體宣傳喔?許民村的演唱會是媒體宣傳喔?這麼偉大喔?因為他本身當初這一個在現在被剪掉調查了啊你們我們還沒有做調查結果"},{"start":394.873,"end":409.063,"text":"主計、主計長啊你要去整頓一下各單位的主計是形同虛設啊是不用不好啊我們會加獎加獎這個行政單位的首長要怎麼用就怎麼用你們坑都不敢坑一聲來請教審計長好委員好"},{"start":413.038,"end":439.447,"text":"我就請教你啊!毛暴鼠用了400萬用暗定基金可不可以?可不可以用對不對?我們在查!蛤?我們在瞭解!什麼時候可以出來?欸...查核...因為這個啊...欸...我們已經函行給他差不多...因為函行他要看他的資料來以後我們會分析、會研究、會做一個速當的處理"},{"start":440.851,"end":466.936,"text":"一個北府署的署長他的裡面的弄了一些水水的這樣一個月3萬的電費你們可以接受嗎?這個我們還沒完全了解因為我們公文已經去了資料還沒來所以我大概一般什麼時候可以出來?差不多一個月內會出來一個月會的話現在檢調已經介入調查了我們會檢日如果有那個我們會訂送檢調處理"},{"start":469.677,"end":492.496,"text":"你自己審計長做這麼久了,你覺得可以動用安地基金來辦演唱會嗎?可以嗎?剛剛我有做這個了解啦,他是在救安基金底下有一個科目叫促進國民就業,裡面用一個普遍科目有一個政令宣導。所以許民春去辦演唱會就政令宣導?"},{"start":493.377,"end":498.039,"text":"臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":520.211,"end":521.532,"text":"臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":537.769,"end":564.001,"text":"還是掛羊頭賣狗咧以假借正義宣導行個人的演唱會之事這個因為沒有我們給他的公示他還沒有給我們答案這個全民關注一個月太久了兩個禮拜可以吧兩個禮拜可以吧因為審計的查爾有一定的促進啦你也不能因為我們也是希望勿忘勿重"},{"start":565.763,"end":569.547,"text":"主計長請回答,審計部你對臺電的決算寫了40頁40信上,批評臺電你的決算報告比如說我這樣幾個,第一個離電風電成效未如預期第二個大潭電號電廠7號機"},{"start":590.359,"end":606.028,"text":"基礎發電低於目標,總共這樣一兩三十公尺,列了比較重要的。然後呢,你可以看喔,我們累積的虧損,當年料、時納、這個有啦,進行順利累積虧損,"},{"start":612.291,"end":637.708,"text":"這樣的情況審計部你對於臺電我們已經前後給幾千億了大概給前面加一加到給五千億了吧還一直虧無比鬥啊他現在又要一千億的追加預算一千億的一個增資你的態度怎麼樣我們是希望臺電要強化他整個的體質"},{"start":639.662,"end":657.175,"text":"改善所以剛剛那個因為能源對我們很重要所以那個主要進度落後我們都提醒所以我們那裡面的一些族群進度落後的我問你啊時間到了我要你簡短回答你答應他不答應在這個時候再給他兩千億啦剛剛說這樣啦答應不答應"},{"start":662.762,"end":691.437,"text":"因為我們是希望他的體質健全以後也要他進行整個財務整個改善因為多多少少他有一些不經濟輸出像駐船會我們一查他那個一年我們可以替他省掉十幾億什麼會?那個印美的在那裡等候印美配?可以省十幾億?"},{"start":693.079,"end":707.231,"text":"在頒認的時候我們說所以你的意思就是他沒有做好成本控制之前不應該給他這個錢我們是希望他我們是如果能夠兼顧他的整個需要希望他能夠改善他的體質"},{"start":708.052,"end":728.928,"text":"改善體質什麼樣體質就是它每一個多多少少都會有一些損失所以我們是有希望大數損失損失最大的就是8年來核電平均貢獻2400億它不要用核電最大的問題在這個地方在這個之前沒有解決之前不能夠給它2000億而且我再講一遍"},{"start":732.751,"end":761.251,"text":"他都說他可以借錢了臺電可以借錢他借的很多了他借很多了我知道借1.6億了再多不愁利息很少十幾億而已借息十幾億200多億200多億他都查過了借一那真的是全部200多億借一千億才要十幾億而已對不對那個是這樣對啦十幾億而已所以借錢借錢可以解決嗎我們希望不要用借錢解決問題"},{"start":762.392,"end":782.677,"text":"那你要付老百姓的錢,我們不同意啊!好,謝謝!謝謝!這個,這個,審計長好好盯著臺電!你對臺電,你對他的平價40月的缺失這樣的缺失,還敢要兩千億?我一眾心腸希望我們,因為能源對我們很重要不能夠再拿那麼多錢啊!好,謝謝!"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時52分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請主計長。"],["主席：主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長你好。美國的準總統川普說，十大進口國都賺美國很多錢，包括賺最多的墨西哥，中國大陸、加拿大、德國等等，臺灣也在裡面，針對這些國家要加課關稅，現在一般是說課10%到25%，一般估算對臺灣可能會課10%，它對臺灣目前大概是課3%左右，要加到10%，這個對GDP會不會有影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是會有影響，但是問題……"],["賴委員士葆：對我們會不會有影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：會有影響，但是問題……"],["賴委員士葆：你們沒有估算過，它如果課10%會影響多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分目前還沒有，影響會在115年來顯現，這個部分到時候我們會進行相關的估算。"],["賴委員士葆：現在還沒有估算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，目前還沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：這對臺灣是利多還是利空？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該都有啦，兼併啦，不是說一致都是利空或者是利多這樣子，還是應該……對不同的產業影響不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：可是其他官員都說是利多耶，他們說：都是課別人，所以臺灣不會課到，都會轉單給我們，絕對是利多。大家都這樣說。"],["陳主計長淑姿：影響的層面目前還必須要再觀察。"],["賴委員士葆：會不會有全球的通膨？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分應該也是要看後面它整個的……"],["賴委員士葆：你知道1997年亞洲金融風暴怎麼產生的嗎？泰銖開始大幅貶值，貶了50%，亞洲的貨幣全部競相貶值，產生亞洲金融風暴，現在看起來有這個味道喔！中國大陸已經說了，如果美國真的加課，不要多，課20%以上的關稅，中國大陸的GDP會減少1%，他們就用人民幣貶值來對付，各國都會，你課我關稅，我就貶給你看，讓我的東西相對便宜，你加我的關稅，我就貶給你看，對不對？所以變成全球各國會競相貶值貨幣，以致於你可以看到，從川普當選到現在，幾乎美金獨強，道理在這裡。我很擔心各國的貨幣競相貶值，臺幣最近也在貶，臺幣也在貶，這個你擔不擔心？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們還是應該要有積極作為，而不是說在那邊擔心，當然，我們必須要事先有一些相關的防範措施，然後再看……"],["賴委員士葆：你認為我們今年的GDP可以到多少？今年的GDP。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們今年GDP當初在8月的時候初估是3.9%……"],["賴委員士葆：現在咧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為現在的狀況不錯，所以會往上修，我們目前大概在明後天應該會發布……"],["賴委員士葆：所以應該今年會超過4%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該是有這樣的一個……"],["賴委員士葆：超過4%。今年的CPI咧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：CPI目前我們大概預估是2.19%到2.17%左右。"],["賴委員士葆：2.1%，那超過楊金龍總裁的百分之二，他說2%才是安全的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前來講，因為幾個颱風連續來襲，在蔬果方面是有一點影響。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們請審計長一起上來，好不好？主計長先不要離開。"],["主席：請審計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：先問主計長，請問你，勞動部你有沒有主計室的主任，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["賴委員士葆：有，主計一條鞭。勞發署有沒有主計處的主任，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["賴委員士葆：北分署有沒有主計處的主任，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["賴委員士葆：好。北分署每個月3萬塊電費，為了謝宜容把辦公環境裝潢得漂漂亮亮，這樣電費一個月要花3萬，你們的主計主任是幹什麼的，為什麼給他用呢？我們的主計，各個單位的主計主任等於是擺設，首長要怎麼用就怎麼用，理都不理你們，而且勞發署還用就業安定基金400萬去替許銘春辦演唱會，你們的主任是幹什麼的？紙糊的？你們主任啥事也不做，這個錢要經過主計室同意的耶，主計長，要經過主計室同意的耶。"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般電費來講的話，這個部分就……"],["賴委員士葆：你們就不管喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為它是業務單位提出來核銷，那我們內部審核就它的內容進行審查，還有包括……"],["賴委員士葆：這個有審查嗎？根本就沒有審查啊！這個就是現在各個單位的主計室形同虛設，讓各個單位的首長予取予求，目前是這個樣子啊！他可以用400萬辦演唱會，而且挪用了勞動基金，請問可以挪用勞動基金嗎？可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分是因為勞動基金本身也有編列媒體的宣傳費……"],["賴委員士葆：那個是媒體宣傳，各位，許銘春的演唱會是媒體宣傳，有這麼偉大喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。這個部分因為它本身當初這一個在……"],["賴委員士葆：現在被檢調調查了啦！你們……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是是，我們還是尊重調查的結果……"],["賴委員士葆：主計長，你要去整頓一下，各單位主計室形同虛設，等於都無效，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們會加強，加強……"],["賴委員士葆：行政單位的首長要怎麼用就怎麼用，你們吭都不敢吭一聲。","來，我請教審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：我就請教你，勞動署用了400萬的安定基金，可不可以？科目用得對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們在查，我們在了解。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：查核這部分，我們已經函詢給它，差不多……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候會有結果？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為函詢要看它的資料送來以後，我們會分析、會研究，然後會做一個適當的處理。"],["賴委員士葆：一個北分署的署長，他的辦公室裡面弄得漂漂亮亮的這樣，一個月3萬的電費，你們可以接受嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們還沒有完全的了解，因為我們公文已經去了，資料還沒來，所以我無法……"],["賴委員士葆：大概一般什麼時候可以出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：差不多一個月會出來。"],["賴委員士葆：一個月火就熄了，現在檢調已經介入調查了。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會檢附，如果有違法，我們會併送檢調處理。"],["賴委員士葆：你自己審計長做這麼久了，你覺得可以動用安定基金來辦演唱會嗎？可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：剛剛我也有就此事去了解，它是在就安基金底下有一個科目叫做「促進國民就業」裡面的用途別科目有一個「政令宣導」，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：所以許銘春在辦演唱會就是政令宣導，就這樣喔？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：演唱會它是發包出去……"],["賴委員士葆：用演唱會，他的演唱會來辦政令宣導喔，哇！這個東西……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是它那個我們看出來是，我們也有進到整個演唱會的情形去看，它是在宣傳性平工作法的一些規定後，他在後面唱了三條歌，我們都有看……"],["賴委員士葆：他一個人唱35分鐘耶！政令宣導唱歌唱35分鐘叫政令宣導？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會去了解，我們連演唱會我們也看了，我們也上去看……"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以接受這個是政令宣導？你們能夠接受這是政令宣導？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個當然我們會整個查完以後會做……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你接受不接受這是政令宣導？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們會看整個內容。"],["賴委員士葆：還是掛羊頭賣狗肉，假借政令宣導之名行個人的演唱會之實？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們給它的公文，它還沒有給我們答復。"],["賴委員士葆：這個全民關注，一個月太久了，兩個禮拜可以吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：蛤？"],["賴委員士葆：兩個禮拜可以吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為審計的查核有一定的程序，也不能……因為我們也是希望毋枉毋縱。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長請回。","審計部，你對台電的決算報告寫了40頁，批評台電，比如說第一個，離岸風電成效未如預期；第二個，大潭電廠7號機機組發電低於目標，總共這樣洋洋灑灑，我只列了比較重要的。然後你可以看累積的虧損，每年都在賠，你可以看到「吸納油氣緩漲之差額」、「稅前淨損」、「累積虧損」等項目，這樣的情況，審計部，對於台電，我們已經前後給幾千億了，全部加一加大概都有給5,000億了吧，還一直虧，無底洞啊！它現在又要1,000億的追加預算，1,000億的增資，你的態度怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是希望台電要強化它的整個體質，要改善，因為能源對我們很重要，所以只要進度落後，我們都會提醒，所以我們報告裡面對一些執行進度落後的，我們是出於善意的提醒……"],["賴委員士葆：我的時間到了，我要你簡短地回答，你答應不答應在這個時候再給它2,000億啦？簡單說這樣，答應不答應？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們是希望它的體質健全以後，也要它進行整個財務的改善，因為多多少少它有一些不經濟支出，像滯船費我們一查，那個一年我們可以替它省掉十幾億欸。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼費？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那個運煤的在那裡等待……"],["賴委員士葆：運煤費可以省十幾億？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，運煤的船在等待搬運的時候，我們說……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思就是，它沒有做好成本控制之前，不應該給它這個錢，就這個意思？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是希望能夠兼顧它的整個需要，也希望它能夠改善它的體質。"],["賴委員士葆：改善體質，什麼樣的體質？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就是它的每一個作業多多少少都會有一些損失，所以我們是希望……"],["賴委員士葆：到處損失，損失最大的就是8年來核電應該貢獻2,400億，它不要用核電，最大的問題在這個地方，在這個問題沒有解決之前，不能夠給它2,000億啦！而且，而且我再講一遍，它都說它可以借錢，台電可以借錢……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它借了很多了，它借很多了。"],["賴委員士葆：這個我知道，借1.6億了，再借，債多不愁，利息很少，十幾億而已，利息十幾億……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不只、不只，兩百多億。"],["賴委員士葆：啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：兩百多億，我們都查過了……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，這個全部是兩百多億啦，借1,000億才要十幾億而已啦，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那個是這樣的，是這樣的……"],["賴委員士葆：對啦，十幾億而已啦。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是它借的錢不少了……"],["賴委員士葆：所以，叫它去借錢，借錢可以解決吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們希望不要用借錢解決問題。"],["賴委員士葆：那你要用老百姓的錢，我們不同意，對不對？"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝賴士葆委員。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，好好盯著台電，你對台電的評價有多達40頁的缺失，有這樣的缺失，還敢要2,000億！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是語重心長，因為能源對我們也很重要，對我們的……"],["賴委員士葆：不能夠再讓它再要錢啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝賴士葆委員。","接著請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966402a7785856a556ea85017ab97aa926f6f2411ecd13e000b59671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:50:57 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對不對是會公平讓民眾後來要知道整個狀況嘛"},{"start":62.978,"end":76.207,"text":"你剛剛特別提到你已經開四屆的這個公聽會是不是?我們的大大小小的北中南東都有在開那個委員講說太少這是一個第二個我要問你你開了公聽會我怎麼接到一個通知"},{"start":77.568,"end":78.128,"text":"王立達他們幾個學者之外"},{"start":108.248,"end":124.678,"text":"你這派厲害關係人公會代表沒有找啊還有潛在的跟委員說明我們的程式是這樣徵詢意見就有不管是外送公會或是餐飲界那慢慢我們已經進入審查程序我們那個潛在的競爭者"},{"start":126.041,"end":151.937,"text":"有可能會經營平台業務的潛在的競爭者我們也要聽他的意見因為我們在審查對競爭的影響就要包括說有可能跟他競爭的人所以我們的層次是從外面到裡面內部專家在競爭法關係的影響會一起做討論所以這邊的開會是有外送平台市場競爭跟結合的這個管制現在外面開始有點緊張因為當然他是一個閉門的嘛"},{"start":154.198,"end":179.616,"text":"第一個閉門他現在開始外面一直在傳了啦就是說有沒有公平的問題然後第二個看起來是有可能以前聽起來是沒有過機會比較大嘛現在看起來又可能用附帶結議過用附帶結議過然後現在他們的要求是這麼那麼清楚第一個你既然是閉門的到時候這個會議紀錄要進去檢驗這是一個喔第二個更重要的阿你找平台來開會阿那我剛剛講的消費者代表球消息會阿"},{"start":181.716,"end":185.599,"text":"的公會代表是不是另外應該也要開一場這個閉門的這個座談會?開過會都有書面請他們正式表達意見你開公開的公聽會之後你要開的先你要辦一個座談會那你為什麼只有平台呢?你應該對"},{"start":196.962,"end":201.084,"text":"對這個消費者阿對那個外送員公會應該要辦一場阿不是嗎?"},{"start":201.084,"end":225.454,"text":"因為這些都有開過阿那是公聽會阿你這一場最特別就是因為是座談會是關門的阿這其實是這樣齁我們在程序上也有一些專家齁那有潛在競爭的我們分不同的不同的這個在產業上的不同的關係好不好 四位我明確要求那把這個不要辦成座談會開成公聽會讓大家可以公開你進行你進行催"},{"start":229.876,"end":246.747,"text":"有些學者我們也尊重學者他在表達意見的時候他希望能夠就是說在表達的時候我們在開會的時候不同的場次不同的人會有我們台灣民眾黨也開了公聽會學者都來了學者的講話當然是經得起檢驗所以現在問題不在學者啦你現在為什麼只有找這個"},{"start":253.271,"end":280.459,"text":"找這些平臺呢?這一些平臺是潛在的可能競爭者他們是不同的這個在整個餐飲外送平臺扮演不同的這個利害關係注意所以第一個要嘛就把這個座談會公開這些事情啊等一下你如果是直接找一個平臺你就是我剛剛講的公會然後這個消極會這是我們消費者這個代表你要在另外再開一場好不好"},{"start":282.68,"end":308.828,"text":"二選一 把這個公開發言委員 你說學者 學者經就去考驗嘛 對不對發言委員 我們的審查期間30天那我們這段時間半年來我們對於各方的意見其實都掌握了那我們也網路徵詢意見了我們應該是開始要好好來審這個案件如果繼續開公聽會 那我知道不是公聽會 不是公聽會 我要你把座談會"},{"start":309.468,"end":312.211,"text":"所以你能不能增加一場利害關係人的可行性的會議是座談會可不可以"},{"start":332.287,"end":351.071,"text":"現在只有二選一嘛 要嘛這個會公開嘛 對不對第二個是公平嘛 對不對 可以嗎那個委員就是說 厲害關心人會議最主要是那個外送公會 公會我們開過非常多的會議 而且他們都有來那個是公聽會 這個是第一次的座談會嘛所以我要求你兩個 你把這個座談會變成公開的這樣平等了 對不對第二個你如果要特別再開一個座談會"},{"start":362.013,"end":364.454,"text":"社會網路創新中心人家做了3117份超過八成的外送人"},{"start":390.285,"end":402.058,"text":"外送員沒有能力跟Uber E爭取更好的工作條件Uber E會利用他獨大的地位減少外送員的這個酬勞第三個欠缺競爭的狀況之下"},{"start":404.431,"end":407.814,"text":"這次的案子裡面有一個非常重要的你有沒有去注意到國外的外送平台的抽成的這個比例"},{"start":426.377,"end":432.822,"text":"你看一下美國大部分的州只有抽15%日本24.9%到26.4%韓國庫盤跟我們庫盤抽多少9.8%可是我們臺灣的吳某義提供35%普遍打提供32%到39%會不會太高"},{"start":447.548,"end":467.996,"text":"這個有沒有影響到你在審這個案子的時候能不能在消費者的這個角度多幫消費者一點那個抽成的高低是市場機制但是如果因為談判地位不平等利用自己這個談判強的這個地位去做不當的這個限制這我們會去處理公平會給人家長久注意公平會這段時間給人家的這個評價是四平八穩"},{"start":473.638,"end":494.541,"text":"保守友誼,開創不足。你說這你要很積極性的,你說為了消費者的潛力你要更積極的去注意這個事情,好不好?你要做這個審查的時候這個事情要很注意。好,現在碰到的是最重要的,消費者的這個潛力。消費者現在面臨的很多地方,第一個他要付這個平台使用費用,對不對?"},{"start":496.055,"end":524.013,"text":"第二個業者他本來被外送平台抽繩那個錢也有可能轉嫁到這邊來阿還有外送員這個錢阿 外送費阿所以會出現這個狀況來 再看一下我們平常去買 我們如果到店家去買例如說一個便當差不多一百塊對不對如果你變過來如果越來拖拉 這個整個那個毒戰越來越嚴重搞不好也會出現這個狀況喔一個便當去買是一百塊結果呢業者要抽繩要轉嫁搞不好多了35塊"},{"start":525.37,"end":547.336,"text":"然後呢外送費又要可能要多50塊錢外送平台又要抽10塊錢一個平台就差不多是兩倍的價格出來喔所以這個案子這次請要特別特別的慎重好不好好來我最後要做一個結論齁第一個最重要為了要保護到消費者跟外送員跟餐廳的這個權益所以最理想還是要提一個專法台灣民眾黨已經提出了專法"},{"start":549.431,"end":572.206,"text":"那我請政府行政部門也要想一想要提專法這個方向去做第二個在外送員的這個外送費以後應該訂一個地板價要去保障他們好不好他們真的是比較弱勢的可是相對餐廳的業者要訂一個合理的天花板價第三然後呢平台更要訂這個天花板價這三個都非常重要"},{"start":572.546,"end":594.675,"text":"那除了外送費、平台服務費跟抽成這個轉嫁的價格之外外送平台以後不能夠用任何名義再疊加或者加取我們這個費用了好不好請主委特別注意一下另外最後就是我剛提的你回去之後你再討論一下既然你加開了一次的公聽會四場之後你又加開了一場座談會又要把它變成是公開的那沒有的話利害關係人"},{"start":596.434,"end":603.255,"text":"消極會消費者潛力的這個保障團體公會業者是不是應該再加開一場座談會請回去好好討論一下好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時51分）多謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。大家都在關心這次的合併案，你剛剛有特別講到這個過程一定會公正跟公開嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們審查的過程會很慎重，但是審查的過程不會公開，委員會討論不會公開。"],["張委員啓楷：你說要做到公平嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，會公平。"],["張委員啓楷：而且要透明化，讓民眾後來能知道整個狀況嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：會知道我們審理的結果。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛你特別提到已經開過4場公聽會了，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們大大小小、北中南東都有在開……"],["張委員啓楷：4場，剛剛已經有委員講說太少，這是一個。第二個，我要問你，你說開了公聽會，但我怎麼接到一個通知是你們下個禮拜三要開一個座談會？"],["李主任委員鎂：我跟委員報告，我們的程序是這樣的，先向各界徵詢意見，在這些意見徵詢之後，我們會有個跨機關或者學者專家會議，就比較是內部會議。外面的意見徵詢差不多了……"],["張委員啓楷：這個引起很多人注意喔，這個會，第一個，是個閉門會嘛，不是公聽會而是座談會，對不對？第二個……"],["李主任委員鎂：這是類似諮詢會議……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，主委，你現在找的人都是平臺耶，除了學者之外，王立達他們幾個學者之外，利害關係人、工會代表也沒有找啊，消費者代表……"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們的層次是這樣，徵詢意見就有不管是外送工會或是餐飲界，慢慢我們已經進入審查程序，對於潛在的競爭者，有可能會經營平臺業務的潛在競爭者，我們也要聽他們的意見，因為我們在審查對競爭的影響，就要包括有可能跟它競爭的人，所以我們的層次是從外面到裡面，內部專家就競爭法關係的影響會一起做討論。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，這次的開會事由是「外送平臺市場競爭與結合管制」座談會，現在外面開始有些緊張，第一個，因為這是一個閉門會議嘛，現在開始外面一直在傳了，就是說有沒有公平的問題？第二個，以前聽起來是不會通過的機會比較大，現在看起來可能會用附帶決議通過。","現在他們的要求是這麼清楚：第一個，既然是閉門會議，到時候這個會議紀錄要禁得起檢驗，這是一個。第二個更重要的，你找平臺來開會啊，那我剛剛講的消費者代表，像是消基會，還有工會代表，是不是另外也要開一場閉門的座談會？"],["李主任委員鎂：這些都有開過會，都有書面請他們正式表達意見，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：不是啦，召開了公開的公聽會之後，你又開了先例要辦一個座談會，那為什麼只有平臺？對消費者及外送員工會也應該要辦一場，不是嗎？這樣才公平啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：因為這些都有開過了。"],["張委員啓楷：那是公聽會啊，你這一場最特別就是因為是座談會，而且是關門的！"],["李主任委員鎂：這個其實是這樣的，我們在程序上也有一些專家，也有潛在的競爭者，我們會就產業上不同的關係來做會議……"],["張委員啓楷：這樣好不好，主委，我明確要求……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們絕對是公平的啦！"],["張委員啓楷：這個不要辦座談會，開公聽會，讓大家可以公開來參加，你之前找消基會、找工會都是公開的，為什麼這場要關門？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為有一些學者，我們也尊重學者，他在表達意見的時候，他希望在表達的時候，我們在開會的時候，不同的場次、不同的人會有……"],["張委員啓楷：我們台灣民眾黨也開了公聽會，學者都來了，學者講話當然是禁得起檢驗。沒有，主委，現在問題不在學者啦，你為什麼只有找這些平臺呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：這一些平臺是潛在的可能競爭者，他們在整個餐飲外送平臺扮演不同的利害關係。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，所以第一個，要嘛就把這個座談會公開，這是一種方式；第二個，你如果只有找平臺，就是我剛剛講，工會、消基會、消費者代表，針對這些你要另外再開一場啦，好不好？二選一，把這個公開……"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：你說學者，學者禁得起考驗嘛，對不對？第二個……"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員，我們的審查期間是30天，在這一段時間、這半年來，我們對於各方的意見其實都掌握了，我們也在網路徵詢意見，我們應該開始要好好來審這個案件，如果繼續開公聽會，我知道……"],["張委員啓楷：不是公聽會，我要你把座談會……"],["李主任委員鎂：不管它的形式是公聽會或座談會，這些都是作為我們審查時候的一個參考依據，如果我們再繼續開不同的，不管是內部會議或者是非公開會義……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你能不能增加一場利害關係人的可行性會議，是座談會，可不可以？現在只有二選一嘛，要嘛公開嘛，對不對？第二個是公平嘛，對不對？可以嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，利害關係人會議最主要是外送工會……"],["張委員啓楷：就是工會嘛！工會，還有消基會……"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們開過非常多的會……"],["張委員啓楷：那個是公聽會……"],["李主任委員鎂：而且他們都有來……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你還是沒有轉過來，那是公聽會，而這個是第一次座談會嘛，所以我要求你兩個，你把這個座談會變成公開的，這樣平等了，對不對？第二個，你如果要特別開個座談會，那你就讓利害關係人也可以開個座談會嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會後斟酌一下，因為結合的審查期間是30天，也需要……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才有說你們做了民調，你說對外送員發出14萬份的調查回來了五百多份嘛，對不對？我給你更大的……"],["李主任委員鎂：六百多。"],["張委員啓楷：六百多？人家這邊有更多的……"],["李主任委員鎂：那個是市場……"],["張委員啓楷：你看一下，社會網絡創新中心做了3,117份問卷調查，超過八成的外送員怎麼說？外送員沒有能力跟Uber Eats爭取更好的工作條件、Uber Eats會利用其獨大的地位減少外送員的酬勞、欠缺競爭的狀況之下，Uber Eats會降低外送員的各項獎勵與補貼。你還在蒐集文件嘛，我給你更多的樣本。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這些資料我們有。"],["張委員啓楷：有喔？這個你們也會參考嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，在這次的案子裡面有一個非常重要的，你有沒有注意到國外外送平臺的抽成比率？你看一下，美國大部分的州只有抽15%，日本抽24.9%到26.4%，韓國抽9.8%，可是我們臺灣的Uber Eats抽35%，foodpanda抽32%到38%，會不會太高？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想抽成……"],["張委員啓楷：這個有沒有影響到你們在審這個案子的時候，能不能站在消費者的角度，多幫消費者一點？"],["李主任委員鎂：抽成的高低是市場機制，但是如果因為談判地位不平等，利用自己談判強的地位去做不當的限制，這個我們會去處理……"],["張委員啓楷：公平會給人家長久……"],["李主任委員鎂：但是單純的定價，我們基本上認為這是市場機制。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，公平會這段時間給人家的評價就是四平八穩啦，保守有餘開創不足，就是說你應該要很積極性的，為了消費者的權利，你要更積極的去注意這個事情，好不好？你在做審查的時候，這個事情要很注意。","現在碰到最重要的就是消費者的權利，消費者現在面臨的是，第一個，他要付平臺使用費用，對不對？第二個，業者本來被外送平臺抽成，那個錢也有可能轉嫁到這邊來啊，還有外送員的外送費，所以會不會出現一個狀況，我們看一下，我們平常如果到店家去買一個便當，差不多100塊，對不對？如果併購案通過，如果整個獨占越來越嚴重，搞不好以後會出現一個狀況喔，一個便當自己去買是100塊，結果業者要抽成又要轉嫁，搞不好多了35塊，然後外送費可能要多50塊錢，外送平臺又要抽10塊錢，一個便當就差不多是兩倍的價格出來了喔，所以這個案子在這次要特別特別慎重，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我最後做一個結論，第一個最重要，為了保護消費者、外送員跟餐廳的權益，最理想還是要提一個專法，我們台灣民眾黨已經提出了專法，我請政府行政部門也要想一想，朝著提專法的這個方向去做。第二個，對於外送員的外送費，以後應該訂一個地板價，要去保障他們，好不好？他們真的是比較弱勢的，可是相對的，對餐廳業者要訂一個合理的天花板價。第三個，平臺更要訂天花板價，這三個都非常重要。除了外送費、平臺服務費跟抽成費的轉嫁價格之外，外送平臺以後不能夠用任何名義向消費者疊加或加收費用了，好不好？請主委特別注意一下。","最後這一個就是我剛剛提到的，請你回去再討論一下，既然你在4場公聽會之後又加開了一場座談會，要不要把它變成公開的？沒有的話，利害關係人、消基會、消費者權益的保障團體及公會業者，是不是應該再加開一場座談會？請回去好好討論一下，謝謝。"],["主席：請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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media有關。當然有很多的研究論文，或者是很多的數字都在談這件事情，但是這個不是在臺灣的研究，都是在美國或者是歐洲，他們開始看這件事情，甚至影響到大腦發展。","我們來看一下我們臺灣自己有的研究是什麼呢？其實我們知道國科會一直有在支持KIT資料庫這件事情，我們是知道的，我們前一陣子也跟老師們開過會，我們非常感謝國科會給予這個支持，關於臺灣幼兒的部分，拉出裡面研究的資料，從3C來看，其實那個研究是我們臺灣自己的研究，他們就發現，3C對於認知、語言、社會、情緒、身體動作，還有整體發展狀況，都有明顯的負面影響，而且這是用我們臺灣的小孩發展資料所做的本土研究。在相關的數字裡面，老師們也提出來一個很重要的建議，而且不是只有KIT資料庫的老師們提出來，已經有非常多專家學者都在呼籲這件事情，我們臺灣如果沒有自己本地的資料，我們其實對於臺灣的孩子自己的認知發展、閱讀學習、情緒管理、社交技巧，到底相關的數字如何影響了他們，而這個影響對於未來教育部、文化部所有跟孩子們有關的部會在做相關政策的時候，其實我們背後沒有一個科學的論證來支持我們，我們現在所有的政策都比較像是補破網式的來做這些事情。主委，你覺得國科會有沒有機會可以針對臺灣0到18歲的兒少使用3C，或者是AI現在發展的困境，做相關的基礎研究，支持臺灣的專家學者做自己臺灣本地的研究？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我非常認同這樣的提議，我會請我們會內的同仁開始研議推動這樣的研究計畫。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了！除了我剛剛說KIT之外，有沒有機會在三個月內提供相關研究規劃報告就好了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，我覺得我們要共同來支持我們臺灣的兒少，有科學論證非常的重要。","我們來看另外一件事情，這個事情比較悲慘，主委，這兩天大家都在談十二強，開始有很多新聞媒體告訴我們，其實這中間情蒐占了很大量的工作，感謝政府給了相關的資源跟支持，精準運科非常重要，主委，你在很多場合都說過，你以前是運動員，我相信你絕對也是支持運科的發展，對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，非常支持！"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們來看一下，運科發展當然就要有運動研究的計畫跟專案，這個是國科會所支持的運動科學研究，可是，主委，我想要告訴你一件事情，會不會在這些運動科學研究的現場，如果計畫主持人剛好是有權力的教練或者是老師，他可能就因著這個研究，在研究的現場當中有上對下的權力關係，做了很多不該做的事情。有一個案例我想給主委看一下這個大學生。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員培瑜：主委看得出來他在被抽血，對不對？這個是我們國科會精準運科執行現場，這個是師大女足的同學，他自己來跟我陳情，他也說，在這樣的質詢臺上，他願意放他的影片，因為他說所有參與研究的同意書是在研究做完、抽血都抽完之後，他們才簽下同意書，他們是被迫的，他們遭到什麼樣的待遇呢？我來跟主委說，一是寒暑假由師大女足教練要求選手配合教練跟教練的好友教授進行相關實驗長達數年，甚至有些人本來是國手，為了這個研究還被配合長達半年的時間不要訓練，因為他們要做對照，有訓練跟沒有訓練。再來，還有連續14天配合抽血，每天抽三次，每天早上五點起床，做到晚上九點，不願意配合就扣畢業學分，等一下我給主委聽相關的錄音。如果這個大學生又是因為體育生進到這個校園裡頭，他的畢業學分其實掌握在那個教練手上，而在抽血初期甚至沒有醫事人員的資格在進行抽血，還有研究補助受試者的經費，還被教練以隊費的名義回收。主委，這是我們國科會支持的運動科學研究。主委，你一定不知道這個事情，我也不知道，我是大學生來跟我陳情才知道，我們來給你聽一段錄音。","（播放錄音）"],["陳委員培瑜：主委，你聽到了吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我們一定會調查，會依照我們的辦法來處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：甚至有對話紀錄，主委，我資料都可以給你。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得這個事情讓我們非常痛心，我們的大學教授、教練是用這個方法在對待我們的選手，快速的給你看一下對話：教練不知道自己在做什麼實驗，連器材都不用，最慘的是沒有地方可以講。我自己的小孩現在就在念大學，如果我的小孩是運動選手，他在學校現場遭遇到這樣的待遇，主委，你心情作何感想？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我覺得這個非常不應該，我也非常痛心。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，而且我剛剛講了，他為什麼這麼害怕？他忍了很多年才決定講出來，因為後來實在是被抽血太痛、太不舒服了，他告訴教練：我可不可以不要再配合抽血了？然後他也寫了一些個人的心情在IG上，就被教練恐嚇要退學，然後他連現在此時此刻，他到底可不可以畢業，他都不知道，所以他想算了，那我就找立法委員陳情，他才願意講出來，可是就算他願意講出來，他的學姐、學妹都不見得願意敢站出來講，因為畢業的權力掌握在教練手上，掌握在這個研究案的計畫主持人身上。","最後我謝謝主委快速的回應說你們會積極的調查，我覺得要給學生、要給這些選手一個公道，不能我們一邊在檯面上慶祝十二強冠軍，但我們卻私底下有這麼多相關的計畫，我也就直接說了，它是師大相關類型的計畫，如果國科會這邊對於這個計畫到底發生了什麼事情，你們需要更多的資料，歡迎來找我們辦公室討論，我們有非常多的資料，我覺得這件事情真的非常痛心。我想國科會在後續，我們當然願意支持所有的運科計畫，但是我們必須認為符合研究倫理，符合上對下的關係是對的，而不是有這樣的問題，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝主委。主委，請回座，謝謝。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157578","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157578","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec25796618e8fea353145f48768d6645aa784673bbcaec0eacdae93afd3a25c60a590e925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:41:30 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剛有聽到政府年來平均的總體"},{"start":175.309,"end":202.262,"text":"一百多億到六百多億之間的盈餘當然這麼多的縣市少數因為公共建設支出比較多一兩個縣市有minus其他都是plus連續五年都這樣那我剛剛那個問題如果你事權沒有下放現在依照統籌分配稅款的這些版本要多拿六千多億去是要幹什麼"},{"start":203.348,"end":220.312,"text":"是,這個部分我再補充說明一下這個部分如果說6000多億分下去因為它又指定說補助一般縣市2501又要維持那這樣子就有將近9000多億要下放到地方那這個部分我們會談到的就是說其實這樣總數會達到21%"},{"start":224.253,"end":242.814,"text":"財源21會移到地方去但是我們相對的其實當初當初裡面有11%是屬於省政府的業務那事前並沒有相對跟著移走所以這個部分就會影響到對阿所以你聽清楚我的問題再回答嘛我就去說過去的5年每一年的地方的政府"},{"start":243.735,"end":263.932,"text":"他的財政總數都是Plus啦從119億到648億那長期的債務也從5.56降到3.69個百分點也降了很多啦等於是降掉降到五分之二啦剩下原來的五分之三啦財政狀況一直在好轉"},{"start":265.475,"end":288.38,"text":"那我舉個例子某個縣市今年連續5年財政都是正的結算之後都是正的這個時候如果市權不增加突然之間要給他很多錢那他要怎麼辦我也不知道這個政府要怎麼辦啊因為市權如果沒有增加他拿到那麼多錢他要花到哪裡去啊"},{"start":289.211,"end":317.054,"text":"因為以我們來出估就是如果說他用我們統籌統籌分配稅和一般縣市補助下去他自己自有的財源都不用用他自己的財源就會多出來那多出來這個部分沒有相關的事權下去去分配那包括全民健保還有包括老農津貼這相關的經過現在都是中央但是這涉及到修訂要修正相關的一個法規這個包括那個地質法包括那個"},{"start":317.734,"end":345.854,"text":"所以我一再在這邊講說錢跟權事跟要做的事跟你要用的錢要整體考量而不是光只有考慮於錢那事情大家沒有分配那這個時候你突然之間增加那麼多錢你也不知道要怎麼用啊因為我們這個不是說我可以把它拿到銀行去存那個概念不能夠用個人的理財來看一個政府"},{"start":346.889,"end":347.169,"text":"主席陳審計長"},{"start":360.646,"end":380.794,"text":"我看你的那個結算報告各個縣市的財政狀況最糟糕的還是苗栗縣對縣市來講對啦縣市啦他不但這個長期就一年以上的非自償債務所謂的我們現在講的償債是207億他甚至為了要去"},{"start":383.124,"end":402.762,"text":"復合那個規範一年以下的就是未滿一年的這個債務所謂的短債他有143億實際上短債這麼多是匪夷所思的因為他的短債就比他的幾乎要跟他一年之間的縣政府的預算要相同那現在總統常債短債加起來350億這樣算是財政有改善了嗎"},{"start":407.539,"end":435.7,"text":"他最慘的時候最低迷的時候是400多億所以400幾億差不多102年的400是改善了一些但是進度很慢而且離目標還很遠是不是離目標還很遠離那個要行政院的財政控管還有一段距離行政院控管他的財政那你們審計部對這樣的事情有什麼樣的看法到底什麼時候他才能夠正常"},{"start":436.485,"end":465.552,"text":"因為像處理這個我以前像這種有時候都出來的特別統籌會不會可以稅款下去的時候有時候中央有時候要主定他還債中央指引還債會員他就會很窮他就跟你講說我年中獎金發不出來我什麼東西弄不出來那個公關工程的那個到期款我都付不出來啊等於我們要支付轉給我們行政專案還要替他付勒"},{"start":466.172,"end":493.875,"text":"那個特別統籌的時候是另外增加出來的有時候財政狀況好的時候像說稅收增加的時候實際收入數比預算數增加很多的時候類似我們今年其實每一年的年底這幾年都一樣都還會有一條特別的錢給這些縣市政府這個時候你建議要強制他還債這個錢因為他有欠人那麼債還有超過那個法定債限所以像這種的就要給他還債"},{"start":494.716,"end":516.609,"text":"那這有沒有法律的依據?這個審計案下公示的時候就要遭其壓我們下那個健保欠債的時候我們下公示的時候先完健保好那我相信主計長在這邊他也有聽到這個建議當然這是審計部的意見再來也不是只有苗栗市的宜蘭縣的城鎮任控看起來也很不行"},{"start":517.729,"end":537.925,"text":"他已經從管住現在已經我們的審計處有通知他說你有現金你有負債你把它還了後來現在他已經脫離這個債限管住可是你知道嗎他一年以上的這個自然債務的餘額他現在常債就是109億短債還有70億對他數還算總共183億遠超過他一年的預算"},{"start":545.342,"end":564.044,"text":"對阿這個我們也還在繼續管控阿那我們會給我們的宜蘭縣審計處阿看到有機會的時候就要他還債那我在這邊很多年都一直跟你講苗栗縣他非正式編制員工的那一些約聘僱還有工友技工什麼東西用太多那個部分的管控怎麼樣呢"},{"start":564.685,"end":589.786,"text":"那個是現在1000多人有增加100多人但是我們查了以後是因為那是都是增加社工人力社會安全網的人力我們是中央主定他要增加所以相對中央要下去的時候可能要叫他一併檢討也不要說一下子增加這麼多當然這個是要慢慢檢討但是以前就是已經提了非常多年了"},{"start":590.246,"end":610.454,"text":"他以前就一再的被指出他這個你剛剛講說中央要他加的那個不算在這個編制內那個算是他合法的編制內頭我講的是合法編制外的還一大堆啊一千多人所以這一部分也拜託你們審計審計單位也要注意這個事情啊要不斷的提醒他他差不多每人都給他審計意見"},{"start":612.27,"end":622.33,"text":"給他審計意見他如果不參考也沒有用所以是請監察院來調查一下我們會把這個案子呈報監察院好 謝謝你喔 加油喔好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":240,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時41分）主席，麻煩請財政部國庫署陳署長。"],["主席：國庫署陳署長。"],["陳署長柏誠：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：署長好。我看了今天財政部的報告，裡面有寫到近5年（108年度至112年度）整體地方政府財政收支決算審定數均有賸餘，是總數賸餘嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：總數賸餘。"],["吳委員秉叡：有沒有個別縣市比較特別的？"],["陳署長柏誠：應該有一、兩個縣市是減少，金門跟桃園是虧損。"],["吳委員秉叡：什麼？"],["陳署長柏誠：有短絀。"],["吳委員秉叡：總數是賸餘，怎麼樣的縣市會短絀？"],["陳署長柏誠：金門跟桃園。"],["吳委員秉叡：金門的財政狀況這麼好，它也在短絀？"],["陳署長柏誠：金門、桃園大概都是近幾年他們一些公共建設的支出項目比較多。"],["吳委員秉叡：金門的公共建設？還是金門的社會福利高於其他縣市？"],["陳署長柏誠：這個我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：你不清楚。"],["陳署長柏誠：對，因為支出面的細項，我們比較沒有……"],["吳委員秉叡：因為統計的數字是整體的。"],["陳署長柏誠：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：這五年來有119億到608億元之間的賸餘。"],["陳署長柏誠：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外，整體地方政府長期債務比率，由103年，103年其實是11年前，然後到112年就是整個10年間，它負債的占比從5.56%降到3.69%，所以得出結論就是地方財政狀況已有改善。那我就要問一個問題，每一年都賸餘，如果沒有要多做什麼事，現在他們的財政收支劃分法一口氣從中央要拿那麼多錢去是要幹什麼？就已經賸餘了啊！就已經有賸餘了，有賸餘還要多拿六千多億，每一個縣市分一分，如果你事權沒有下放，光拿這個錢去是要幹什麼？如果目前的事權沒有改變的話。"],["陳署長柏誠：對，目前大概就是去降低它的……"],["吳委員秉叡：好，你請回座，因為我想這個應該由政務官來回答，請主計長。"],["陳署長柏誠：謝謝，"],["主席：主計長。"],["吳委員秉叡：主計長，你剛有聽到？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：這五年來總體平均有一百多億到六百多億之間的盈餘，當然這麼多的縣市，少數因為公共建設支出比較多，一、兩個縣市有minus，其他都是plus，連續五年都這樣，我剛剛的問題，如果事權沒有下放，現在依照統籌分配稅款的這些版本，要多拿六千多億去是要幹什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再補充說明一下，這個部分如果六千多億分下去，因為它又指定補助一般縣市2,501億要維持嘛，這樣就有將近九千多億要下放到地方，這個部分我們會談到的就是，其實這樣總數會達到21%，會把財源的21%移到地方去，但是其實當初裡面有11%是屬於省政府的業務，事權並沒有相對跟著移走，所以這個部分就會影響到很多部分。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊，所以你聽清楚我的問題再回答嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我就是說過去的5年，每年地方政府的財政總數都是plus，從119億到648億，長期的債務也從5.56降到3.69個百分點，也降了很多了，等於是降了五分之二，剩下原來的五分之三，財政狀況一直在好轉。我舉一個例子，某個縣市連續5年財政結算之後都是正的，這個時候如果事權不增加，突然之間要給他很多錢，那它要怎麼辦？我也不知道這個政府要怎麼辦，因為事權如果沒有增加，它拿到那麼多錢，它要花到哪裡去啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為以我們來粗估，如果用統籌分配稅和一般縣市補助，它自己自有的財源都不用使用，這樣它自己的財源就會多出來，多出來的這個部分如果沒有相關的事權分配下去，包括全民健保、老農津貼，這些相關金額現在都是由中央負擔，但是這涉及到要修正相關的法規，包括地制法"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我一再在這邊講說，錢跟權，要做的事跟要用的錢是要整體考量的，而不是光只有考慮錢，事情大家沒有分配，這個時候突然之間增加那麼多錢，你也不知道怎麼用啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為這個不是說可以把它拿到銀行去存的概念，不能夠用個人的理財來看一個政府。好，先請你回座。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：請陳審計長。"],["主席：審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：我看你各個縣市的結算報告，財政狀況最糟糕的還是苗栗縣。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，以縣市來講。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，縣市啦，它不但一年以上的非自償債務，也就是所謂的長債是207億，它甚至為了要符合規範，未滿一年的債務，也就是所謂的短債有143億，事實上短債這麼多實在是匪夷所思，因為它的短債幾乎跟它一年之間的縣政府預算相同。現在長債、短債加起來總共是350億，這樣算是財政有改善了嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它最慘的時候、最低迷的時候是四百多億，102年差不多是四百零幾億，現在是改善了一些，但是進度很慢……"],["吳委員秉叡：而且離目標還很遠，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：離目標很遠，離行政院的財政控管還有一段距離，行政院控管它的財政。"],["吳委員秉叡：你們審計部對這樣的事情有什麼樣的看法？到底什麼時候它才能夠正常？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：以前像這種情況，有時候多出來的特別統籌分配稅款下去的時候，中央有時候要指定它還債。"],["吳委員秉叡：中央指定要還債，問題它就是很窮啊！它就跟你講說年終獎金發不出來啊、它什麼東西弄不出來啊，公共工程的到期款都付不出來啊，等於我們還要支付轉給，中央還要替他替他付耶！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：特別統籌是另外增加出來的，有時候財政狀況好的時候……"],["吳委員秉叡：像是……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：稅收增加的時候。"],["吳委員秉叡：實際收入數比預算數增加很多的時候，類似我們今年的狀況，其實這幾年都一樣，都還會有一條特別的錢給這些縣市政府，這個時候你建議要強制它還債？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個錢，因為它有欠這個債，還有超過法定債限，所以像這種的就要它還債。"],["吳委員秉叡：這有沒有法律的依據，還是行政院可以要求它？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：行政院下公示的時候就要……早期健保欠債的時候，我們就下公示說先還健保。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。主計長有在這邊，我相信他也有聽到這個建議，當然這是審計部的意見。","再來也不是只有苗栗縣，宜蘭縣的財政狀況看起來也很不行啊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它已經從管制……我們的審計處有通知它說，你有現金、你有負債，你把它還了，現在它就已經脫離債限管制。"],["吳委員秉叡：可是你知道嗎？它一年以上的非自償債務餘額，長債就是109億，短債也有74億，總共183億，遠超過它一年的預算啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這個我們也還在繼續管控，我們會請宜蘭縣審計處有機會的時候就要它還債。"],["吳委員秉叡：我在這邊很多年，都一直跟你講，苗栗縣非正式編制員工的約聘僱還有工友、技工等等用太多，那個部分的管控怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在是一千多人，有增加一百多人，但是我們查了以後，那都是增加社工人力、社會安全網的人力，是中央指定它要增加，所以相對中央要下去的時候，可能要叫它一併檢討，也不要說一下子增加這麼多。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然啊！當然這是要慢慢檢討，但是以前已經提了非常多年了，它以前就一再地被指出……你剛剛講說中央要它加的那個不算在這個編制內，算是它合法編制內的，我講的是合法編制外的還一大堆啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一千多人，我們有注意到這個部分。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊，所以也拜託你們審計單位也要注意這個事情，要不斷地提醒他啊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，差不多每年都給它審計意見。"],["吳委員秉叡：給它審計意見，它如果不參考也沒有用。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那我們會來……"],["吳委員秉叡：是不是請監察院來調查一下？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會把這個案子呈報監察院。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你，加油，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秉叡委員。","接著我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec25796689abcf335a87bd7ca85017ab97aa926fbbcaec0eacdae93a42429a604935b5345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:41:59 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主委我覺得從法律上來講大概都沒有問題本席理解可是因為最主要是因為超華廟裡面它都是小商鋪它其實就是一個小鋪位而已而且只有17家說實話超華廟外面有幾十家上百家的鋪位那我們聯合行為當中裡面有特別提到一個部分"},{"start":106.528,"end":133.873,"text":"就是說公平交易法第14條第1項它裡面講到要足以影響生產商品交易或者服務工序的市場功能17家業者在整個城隍廟附近根本是很小的一個數量它沒有能夠去影響這個市場功能所以我知道這個事情其實後來公平會也沒有處罰只是警示可是我要講的狀態是針對這樣的事情公平會就警示了之後呢發新聞稿你現在上網去查的時候就出現城隍廟"},{"start":135.893,"end":159.898,"text":"他就是一個聯合漲價違法都是新聞不斷的出現這是公平會做出來的結果那針對這個部分的時候我覺得是對新竹城堡非常的不公平因為基本上他們聯合行為相較於整個城堡廟附近來說是非常小的幾個商家那這個部分我要特別再延伸到另外一個問題是我上次有曾經問過了一個就是"},{"start":160.838,"end":175.487,"text":"現在衛福部對於診所掛號費這個部分他們擺明不管那我上次質詢了之後呢現在掛號費這邊漲到500塊幾乎跟台大一樣診所漲到3倍以上的價格那"},{"start":176.408,"end":195.998,"text":"你們當時回我的時候表示說你們有查到了在陽梅這邊有兩家醫院有聯合行為的行為就只有全台灣這麼多的狀態就只有陽梅這邊有兩家診所有聯合行為就在這部分的時候主管你這邊可以回應一下對於掛號費漲了好幾倍"},{"start":198.98,"end":213.162,"text":"然後我們這邊好像也沒有任何的一個動作然後新竹城隍廟幾百家業者也有17家他們一起漲五塊錢在雞蛋之亂的時候漲了五塊錢竟然就被發新聞稿警示"},{"start":214.588,"end":230.607,"text":"主委你可以說明一下到底這樣公平嗎我先跟委員說明陳煌廟這因為已經有很明確的這個事實因為他掛一個公告那這樣子呢一起漲價的行為其實我們擔心會造成整個烘台物價的一個效果"},{"start":230.987,"end":247.821,"text":"所以我們在委員會討論的時候也瞭解到這個蚵仔煎米粉貢丸湯經營非常的不容易那我們在調查的時候也跟這個城隍廟的相關的人都相為解說他們大概也瞭解這樣的一個清晰所以我們對 主委我理解喔最主要的是因為城隍廟附近"},{"start":248.902,"end":265.69,"text":"幾百家商家17家因為雞蛋之亂的時候漲五塊錢公平會這麼樣大張旗鼓去做了一個新聞稿警示然後現在呢那個掛號費的部分大家可能沒有講好可是有默契都漲了漲了幾百塊錢"},{"start":268.251,"end":291.623,"text":"關號費我們也有去全省的這些診所都有去了解我們沒有證據去證明到說有哪一些醫院是跟人家聯合一起漲價我提到我知道這個部分公平會這邊在法律上站了住腳可是情感上大家覺得很荒謬雞蛋之亂的時候陳王廟前面的小攤家漲五塊錢"},{"start":294.084,"end":320.177,"text":"發新聞稿警示他們結果整個診所的報號費衛福部不管把責任推到公平會這邊來公平會這邊人家有默契的漲價所以你說沒有證據民眾的感受不一樣就那個兩家桃園那兩家診所聯合我們有發新聞稿任何違反公平交易法的案件我們為了促進社會大眾注意是因為診所有"},{"start":321.297,"end":329.603,"text":"幾千家上萬家你只查到兩家所以我們也才會知道你如果沒有發新聞稿這兩家我也不會知道有這麼離譜的狀態陳華廟的17家小攤漲五塊錢你發新聞稿然後"},{"start":337.694,"end":361.447,"text":"掛號費兩家然後你發了新聞稿我們就發現裡面有很多荒唐的事情那我接下來剩下的時間有限我還是要特別關心一下復本納跟那個Uber Eats的問題那這個事情因為其實我們在前兩禮拜我們也開了一個協調會那也很感謝公平會來做了一個很詳細的一個說明可是我要特別提到因為這個部分它影響的部分不只是"},{"start":362.307,"end":378.755,"text":"福佩拉當中550個員工的一個狀態不是影響到10萬個跟他們曾經有過互動的商家也不是那個外送員你剛剛講14萬我得到訊息是22萬因為目前有兩個不同的數字"},{"start":379.735,"end":380.155,"text":"公平交易委員會主管"},{"start":403.782,"end":407.906,"text":"公平會接受併購的一個申請感覺上很像在傳達一個狀態是如果用附加條件的時候公平會會同意他們做這個併購會有這樣的一個方向嗎 主委"},{"start":427.525,"end":456.348,"text":"我們委員會還沒有討論是不會嘛對不對這目前純粹只是業者在帶一個這樣子的風向在傳遞這樣的一個訊息對不對還沒有開始討論對不對目前還沒有討論是會準或不準或者是負條件所以針對這個部分因為影響很多然後我聽到幾乎每個委員都問到這件事情那我給一個數字針對外送員的權益的部分因為在過去當中烏柏易他本來對外送員就不是一個很有善的一個"},{"start":457.068,"end":460.419,"text":"老闆那對於整個外送費當中的時候"},{"start":461.687,"end":489.444,"text":"主委你看從2015年不限里程一單可以100塊2018往下降變成一單60元然後限制兩公里然後2020年的時候一單變成40元限制兩公里2023年的時候一單40元變成四公里範圍表示外送平台在目前有競爭的情況之下的時候呢對於整個外送員的權益就不斷的在剝削"},{"start":490.385,"end":517.311,"text":"如果變成一家獨大的時候那情況會怎麼樣子我們不敢去想像所以我們希望公平會在這個外送平台的併購案當中一定要擔起我們應該要有一個責任那其實目前包括說在新加坡在新加坡他們都曾經拒絕過這樣的一個合併案當然也有不同的國家有不同的做法那我們希望"},{"start":518.271,"end":529.85,"text":"公平會在處理外送平台併購案的時候能夠更考量到從業者他們的一個權益的問題好不好是的 這個都會一起考量好 謝謝主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時42分）謝謝主席，我想請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。最近大家都在關心平臺業者合併的事情，不過我要先問一個問題，11月8號的時候，公平會針對新竹城隍廟裡面17家攤商聯合漲價5元的行為，認定是違反了公平交易法，這個事情的背景，我特別講一下，因為時間的發生並不是在現在，事情發生是在去年4月、5月雞蛋之亂的時候，坦白說，在當時雞蛋之亂的時候，漲價5塊錢真的算是良心商店，你知道嗎？針對這個部分，主委可不可以做個說明？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員報告，每一個店家基於成本或是各種營運的考量後去漲價，公平會不會因此去處罰它，新竹城隍廟的情形是聯合公告一起漲價。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。主委，我覺得從法律上來講大概都沒有問題，本席理解，可是最主要是因為城隍廟裡面都是小商舖，其實就是一個小舖位而已，而且只有17家，說實話，城隍廟外面有幾十家、上百家的舖位，我們聯合行為的規定中有特別提到一個部分，就是公平交易法第十四條第一項的規定是要「足以影響生產、商品交易或服務供需之市場功能」，17家業者在整個城隍廟附近根本是很小的數量，他們沒有辦法去影響市場功能。雖然我知道這個事情後來公平會也沒有處罰，只是警示，可是我要講的狀態是，針對這樣的事情，公平會警示了之後就發新聞稿，你現在上網去查就出現城隍廟17家是聯合漲價、違法，這個新聞不斷地出現，這是公平會做出來的結果。針對這個部分，我覺得對新竹城隍廟非常的不公平，因為基本上，他們的聯合行為相較於整個城隍廟附近來說是非常小的幾個商家。","從這個部分我要特別再延伸到另外一個問題，我上次曾經問過，現在衛福部對於診所掛號費的部分擺明了不管，我上次質詢了之後，現在掛號費已經漲到500塊，幾乎跟臺大一樣，診所漲到三倍以上的價格，你們當時回我的時候表示，你們查到了在楊梅這邊有兩家醫院有聯合行為，全臺灣這麼多的狀態，只有楊梅這邊有兩家診所有聯合行為。針對這個部分，是不是請主委回應一下，對於掛號費漲了好幾倍，你們好像沒有任何一個動作，但是新竹城隍廟幾百家業者裡面有17家一起漲5塊錢，而且是在雞蛋之亂的時候漲了5塊錢，竟然就被發新聞稿警示。主委，你可不可以說明一下，到底這樣公平嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我先跟委員說明，城隍廟的這個部分是因為已經有很明確的事實，因為他們掛了一個公告，這樣子一起漲價的行為，我們擔心會造成整個哄抬物價的效果，所以我們在委員會討論的時候，也了解到蚵仔煎、米粉、貢丸湯，經營非常的不容易，我們在調查的時候，也跟城隍廟的相關人員都詳為解說，他們大概也了解這樣的一個情形，我們對於價格聯合很少不罰錢的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是啊，主委，我理解，最主要就是因為城隍廟附近有幾百家商家，這17家因為雞蛋之亂的時候漲5塊錢，公平會這麼大張旗鼓去做了一個新聞稿警示，然後現在掛號費的部分，大家可能沒有講好，可是有默契都漲了，漲了幾百塊錢喔！"],["李主任委員鎂：掛號費的部分，我們也有去全省的這些診所進行了解，我們沒有證據證明有哪一些醫院是跟人家聯合一起漲價，如果有，我們一樣會去查。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，主委，我特別提到，我知道這個部分公平會在法律上站得住腳，可是在情感上大家覺得很荒謬。雞蛋之亂的時候，城隍廟前面的小攤家漲5塊錢，你發新聞稿警示他們，但是診所的掛號費，衛福部不管，把責任推到公平會這邊來，公平會對於人家有默契的漲價卻說沒有證據，民眾的感受不一樣！"],["李主任委員鎂：桃園那兩家診所的聯合行為，我們也有發新聞稿，任何違反公平交易法的案件，我們為了促請社會大眾注意，都會發新聞稿。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，因為診所有幾千家、上萬家，你只查到兩家，所以我們也才會知道，你如果沒有發新聞稿說這兩家的行為，我們也不會知道有這麼離譜的狀態。城隍廟的17家小攤漲5塊錢，你發新聞稿，然後掛號費查到兩家，你也發新聞稿，我們就發現裡面有很多荒唐的事情！","接下來，我剩下的發言時間有限，但我還是要特別關心一下foodpanda跟Uber Eats的問題，針對這個事情，其實我們在前兩個禮拜也開了一個協調會，也很感謝公平會來做了很詳細的說明，可是我要特別提到，因為這個所影響的部分不只是foodpanda當中550位員工的狀態，不是影響到10萬個跟他們曾經有過互動的商家，也不是外送員，你剛剛講14萬，我得到的訊息是22萬，因為目前有兩個不同的數字，可是不管，就是有很多，然後有超過一千多萬的消費者都用過他們這樣的平臺，所以這件事情的影響極為極為極為深遠。我們知道這件事情如果沒有處理好，將會出現外送員輸、消費者輸、店家也輸的一個情況，所以我們希望公平會在這個事情當中能夠有更大的承擔去做，因為我們目前看到Uber Eats的官網上直接講到公平會接受併購的申請，感覺上很像在傳達一個狀態是，如果用附加條件的話，公平會會同意他們做這個併購，請問主委，有這樣的方向嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有，我們委員會還沒有討論，所以……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以不會嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：結論是什麼，委員會沒有討論……"],["鄭委員正鈐：目前純粹只是業者在帶這樣的風向、在傳遞這樣的訊息，對不對？還沒有開始討論，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前還沒有討論會准或不准或者是附條件。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以針對這個部分，因為影響很多，然後我聽到幾乎每個委員都問到這件事情，我給一個數字，針對外送員權益的部分，因為過去Uber Eats本來對外送員就不是很友善的老闆，以外送費來講，主委，你看，2015年是不限里程，一單100元；2018年往下降，變成一單60元，然後限制2公里；然後2020年的時候，一單變成40元，限制2公里；2023年的時候，一單40元，範圍變成4公里，這表示外送平臺在目前有競爭的情況之下，對於整個外送員的權益就已經不斷地在剝削，如果變成一家獨大的時候，情況會怎麼樣，我們不敢去想像。所以我們希望公平會對於這個外送平臺併購案的處理，一定要擔起應該要有的責任，其實目前包括在新加坡、沙烏地阿拉伯都曾經拒絕過這樣的合併案，當然也有不同的國家有不同的作法，我們希望公平會在處理外送平臺併購案的時候，能夠更考量到從業者的權益問題，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是的，這個都會一起考量。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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上面我們當然看到國立大學的案子我覺得很棒但私立大學案子我覺得我們是不是也可以用心去看一下有的時候現在很多私立大學表現是很好的可是我們不要因此去磨煞它了所以我希望這件事情很重要因為尤其這幾年少子化我們看到私立大學的生存已經很不容易了如果他們很積極的又想要提出好的研究計畫讓學校能夠更好我們是應該要站在鼓勵的角色"},{"start":94.756,"end":95.677,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":110.324,"end":131.095,"text":"謝謝委員我可以簡短回答不用你到我辦公室再跟我講就好了因為這件事要聊很久我想剛才提到對科學的熱情上週經濟部長郭智輝部長他在本月的質詢當中他有透露了一件事他說半導體龍頭台積電未來十幾年間每一年要在台灣蓋一座廠你知道這個說法嗎"},{"start":132.657,"end":133.537,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":144.296,"end":168.268,"text":"對但是我們就要像中華隊一樣要有偉大的目標我們才能拿世界第一努力去做那國科會支持的好你佩服他好那我們來看一看除了佩服他以外我們要怎麼配合他這比較重要是台積電每年一場我們優先考慮的一定是進駐科學園區這不用講那這個經濟部在談這個事情的時候這樣的說法是有沒有跟國科會溝通過"},{"start":169.079,"end":170.68,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":195.322,"end":199.284,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":222.876,"end":223.796,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":238.274,"end":239.576,"text":"第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":256.095,"end":258.596,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":282.165,"end":292.511,"text":"其實不能說只有新竹園區91公頃還差一點如果我們硬要把它湊在一塊的話91那中科二林園區的316.66公頃還有未開發土地這個僅南科的各園區總計538.56公頃那這其中橋頭園區單獨還有262.39公頃土地未開發那本席看了這些數據主委是不是可以意味著說台積電其實可能就是落腳彰化二林跟高雄橋頭"},{"start":312.248,"end":336.125,"text":"這一部分有很多的條件必須要跟有需求的公司來討論然後還要跟地方政府的配合也有關係因為很多程序要走但是你看目前科學園區符合的土地相加起來大約在580公頃左右你就算排除了土地開發進度跟其他廠商也有需求等等最多大概也可以讓台積電設五個廠"},{"start":338.146,"end":362.417,"text":"我想郭部長所說的未來十幾年一年一場你又這麼佩服他但現在要怎麼樣配合他可以達成我們目前行政院通過的方案包含桃竹苗大細股方案以及智慧科技大南方產業生態系方案我們也同時也在盤點未來在這個方案下面可能可以發展的一些土地"},{"start":362.657,"end":385.79,"text":"以上是土地的問題,那我們來討論。我想除了土地問題要解決之外,用水用電也是一個大問題。雖然郭部長說經濟部他會背駝水電,可是我想部長他連要去什麼菲律賓加海底電纜這種說法都提出來了。不難想像,我們實際台灣用電是非常吃緊的,這點我相信主委你也認同,我們的用電真的非常吃緊。"},{"start":387.19,"end":411.707,"text":"主委你自己也是氣候變遷對策委員會的委員之一你也知道2050的淨零轉型目標明年核電退場綠電進度又是比較緩慢只有增加燃煤燃氣這些碳排基組的運轉才有辦法供應足夠的電可是這又背離了減碳的目標主委您是一個科學人以科學角度要怎麼樣不增加我們的碳排又可以提供充足的電給台積電"},{"start":414.212,"end":434.355,"text":"我們現在在發展新的園區的時候我們也同時會要求一定的綠電的比例接近能源的使用這個目標是沒有改變的那經濟部的確也是朝著要求是要求啊做不做得到嘛對不對要求是一定會要求的我相信郭部長可以做到"},{"start":435.25,"end":436.572,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":453.01,"end":473.272,"text":"那國科會曾經在我國地下水資源政策研究報告當中你有指出過說台灣被聯合國列為全球排名第18位具缺水危機的國家可是我們半導體的用水量又卻是極高所以這樣的狀況我看一下我不知道國科會可以提出什麼好辦法來應對主委可不可以說一下"},{"start":474.355,"end":476.117,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":492.317,"end":493.238,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":506.994,"end":509.056,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時39分）主席，我們請吳主委。"],["主席：吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：萬召委好。"],["萬委員美玲：主委早。主委，我那天看到新聞真的把我嚇了一跳，原來你以前還是少棒的王牌投手，是嗎？對棒球還有熱情嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然有。"],["萬委員美玲：非常有，但現在本席希望你可以把對棒球的熱情轉到對科學的熱情，其份量能夠是相當的。我先延續一下剛才林倩綺委員提的，現在國科會有很多對於這些公私立大學研究計畫的補助，但是真的，不管是哪一項補助案或是哪一個計畫，我們看到公私立的差距都很大，當然我覺得好的研究計畫我們就是要去支持它，但是如果我們發現其實絕大部分是一面倒，全部都只是國立大學，時間久了其實會造成私立大學會覺得反正國科會補助就是針對公立大學，有的時候他們有好的研究計畫的時候就不被鼓勵，所以我想這麼多年來，其實私校在我們的教育上扮演非常重要的角色，我希望主委在這一點上面，當然我們看到國立大學的案子，我覺得很棒，但是私立大學的案子，我們是不是也可以用心去看一下？有時候現在很多私立大學的表現是很好的，可是我們不要因此去抹煞它，其實這件事情很重要，尤其這幾年少子化，我們看到私立大學的生存已經很不容易了，如果他們很積極地想要提出好的研究計畫，讓學校能夠更好，我們應該要站在鼓勵的角色，所以會後希望國科會能夠找個時間，主委，您這邊跟我辦公室約一下，這麼重要的議題，我們能夠好好的來研究看看，怎麼樣均衡的讓公私立大學都可以受到國科會的支持，這樣好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我可以簡短回答……"],["萬委員美玲：不用，你到我辦公室再跟我講就好了，因為這件事要聊很久。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：剛才有提到對科學的熱情，上週經濟部郭智輝部長在本院的質詢當中透露了一件事，他說，半導體龍頭台積電未來十幾年間，每年要在臺灣蓋1座廠，你知道這個說法嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有看到媒體報導。"],["萬委員美玲：看到的時候感覺怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：感覺我很佩服郭部長。"],["萬委員美玲：你很佩服他？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：他講得這麼篤定。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，但是我們就要像中華隊一樣，要有偉大的目標，我們才能拿世界第一，努力去做，國科會是支持的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，你佩服他。那我們來看一看，除了佩服他以外，我們要怎麼配合他？這個比較重要。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：台積電每年1廠，我們優先考慮的一定是進駐科學園區，這個不用講，經濟部在談這個事情的時候，這樣的說法有沒有跟國科會溝通過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。"],["萬委員美玲：有溝通過才說的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有溝通過，國科會負責園區的……"],["萬委員美玲：我們來看，國科會底下有三大科學園區：竹科、中科跟南科，我們現在看到科學園區內總共有台積電12座晶圓廠，其中1座在竹科、1座在南科，楠梓的部分還在蓋，2025才會完工，6座是自有的封測廠，其中1座之前因為有挖到遺址，在南科嘉義園區，也才剛復工。其實現在各地，應該說世界各地，臺灣也是，都掀起了「搶積潮」，都希望台積電能夠落腳在他們的地方，能夠帶動當地的經濟發展。之前我們看到經濟部林全能次長說，台積電設廠要有3個要件，我想這個主委很了解，就是土地是否足夠、供應鏈的體系是否完整，以及人才供給是否充足，其中100公頃以上大面積的土地是首要之務，現在既然國科會都知道它會進駐到科學園區是首選，那我們有沒有去盤點過整個科學園區目前的條件？有沒有盤點過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前發展的需求都已經在開發當中。"],["萬委員美玲：有盤點過嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有盤點過。"],["萬委員美玲：好，有盤點過，對這些數據應該不陌生。根據國科會的網站資料顯示，目前三大科學園區可以出租的廠房土地共有2,063.08公頃，目前已經出租1,903.38公頃，出租率很高，將近93%，也就是說剩下7%的空間，所有科學園區相加只有剩下160公頃左右的廠房土地，而且我剛剛所提的這些廠房土地，還是散落在各個科學園區內，不是一整塊。我們再來看到科學園區的土地，目前開發中的土地，符合的只有……其實不能說只有新竹園區91公頃，還差一點啦，如果我們硬要把它湊在一塊的話是91公頃；中科二林園區的316.66公頃，還有未開發土地僅南科的各園區，總計538.56公頃，其中橋頭園區單獨還有262.39公頃土地未開發。本席看了這些數據，主委，是不是可以意味著說，台積電其實可能就是落腳彰化二林跟高雄橋頭？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這部分有很多的條件，必須跟有需求的公司來討論，然後跟地方政府的配合也有關係，因為很多程序要走。"],["萬委員美玲：好，但是目前科學園區符合的土地相加起來，大約在580公頃左右，就算排除了土地開發進度跟其他廠商也有需求等等，最多大概可以讓台積電設5個廠，我想郭部長所說的，未來十幾年1年1廠，你又這麼佩服他，但現在要怎麼樣配合他可以達成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前行政院通過的方案，包含桃竹苗大矽谷方案，以及智慧科技大南方產業生態系方案，我們也同時在盤點未來在這個方案下面可能可以發展的一些土地。"],["萬委員美玲：好，以上是土地的問題。接著我們來討論，我想除了土地問題要解決之外，用水、用電也是一個大問題。雖然郭部長說經濟部會備妥水電，可是我想部長他連要去菲律賓架海底電纜這種說法都提出來了，不難想像我們實際臺灣用電是非常吃緊的，這點我相信主委你也認同，我們的用電真的非常吃緊。主委，你自己也是氣候變遷對策委員會的委員之一，你也知道2050的淨零轉型目標，明年核電退場，綠電進度又是比較緩慢，只有增加燃煤、燃氣這些碳排機組的運轉，才有辦法供應足夠的電，可是這又背離了減碳的目標。主委，您是一個科學人，以科學的角度，要怎麼樣不增加我們的碳排，又可以提供充足的電給台積電呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在在發展新的園區的時候，我們也同時會要求一定的綠電的比例、潔淨能源的使用，這個目標是沒有改變的，經濟部的確也是朝這個……"],["萬委員美玲：要求是要求，做不做得到嘛，對不對？要求是一定會要求的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我相信郭部長可以做到。"],["萬委員美玲：你相信他可以做到？好、好，那我想主委最大的任務就是繼續期許他就是了。我們再來看用水的部分，在2021年的時候臺灣發生過大乾旱，各個水庫幾乎都見底了，去年年初的時候南部也再度面臨缺水，國科會曾經在我國地下水資源政策研究報告當中指出，臺灣被聯合國列為全球排名第18位具缺水危機的國家，可是我們半導體的用水量又是極高，在這樣的狀況下，我不知道國科會可以提出什麼好辦法來應對，主委可不可以說一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在在再生水利用的比例逐漸在提高，而且一直在增加新的再生水廠，這部分也是搭配我們現在的高科技產業，他們也非常的配合，一直在協助政府，也在積極發展水資源的再利用。"],["萬委員美玲：好啦，主委，反正今天本席提出來的，我相信都是你頭疼的問題，像土地、用水、用電都很頭疼啦，但我看起來你的解決方案就是我們信任郭部長，所以我想主委還是要好好想一想怎麼去解決。","其實本席非常支持我們台積電在臺灣設廠，甚至於桃園龍潭的科學園區也是一個很好的選擇，當然剛剛說到的土地跟用水、用電的問題，都是設廠的時候必須面對的，所以主委，我們除了去信任跟期許郭部長之外，我希望主委站在科學人的角度，我們要更加用心想辦法來解決，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝主委、謝謝萬委員。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157575","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157575","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966b148be5fb4803196a85017ab97aa926fbbcaec0eacdae93ac918614e2a6c40d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:31:16 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謝謝主席好 我請一下這個公平會李主委"},{"start":35.878,"end":56.688,"text":"主委早主委我想今天在討論公平會的這個預算有幾個問題想要救教來第一個這個臺灣隊在前幾天打贏了這個世界冠軍是全國上下都非常的開心但是我們就發現有一則新聞我不曉得公平會有沒有去注意到就是臺北市有一個業者叫喜傑斯"},{"start":58.129,"end":79.111,"text":"他在網路上呢就公開說這個如果他的這一篇貼文按了一個讚就可以折一塊錢那這個累積是無上限折價是無上限折扣的金額是沒有上限的所以呢就被網友發現了這件事那網友在很短的時間之內就開始不斷的去按讚"},{"start":81.835,"end":96.704,"text":"後來這家公司發現他們在很短的時間獲得了1.7萬個讚之後這個公司就在沒有提前公告的情況之下開始不斷的修改他的活動條件內容總共修改了多達18次"},{"start":98.405,"end":125.372,"text":"甚至到網友已經都截圖了等等他說這公司就直接說因為他的官網被攻擊所以這個活動大概都不算未來的這些甚至什麼價格是被批圖的折扣無法依照定價除了你們有沒有去注意到這一則新聞這個我有注意到你有注意到那他有沒有涉及違反所謂的公平交易法跟不實的廣告"},{"start":126.55,"end":147.228,"text":"有沒有在這個整個的消費行為上面涉及到了我們相關的法令誤導消費者拉不當競爭拉這個不實廣告拉有沒有這個你們會不會主動去啟動調查會不會給台灣的消費者一個合理的調查報告或者是一個合理的"},{"start":148.081,"end":148.381,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":164.637,"end":193.045,"text":"我想這個應該很多網友都會去注意到這件事情嘛很多人都是要蹭著這個臺灣隊的冠軍那當然各式各樣的優惠其實我覺得這個都難免但是如果說自己提出來的優惠在短時間之內改了18次然後沒有任何的公告而且他的那個優惠的條件是越來越縮水甚至到最後他講說他其實是官網被攻擊的話我想這個其實誤導消費者或者是做不實廣告的成分其實是非常的大"},{"start":193.745,"end":220.913,"text":"事實上我們也收到一些檢舉也有十幾件檢舉所以我們也會去了解來主委那我想今天其實很多委員都針對公平會在處理這個併購案或者是多層次傳銷我想多層次傳銷的這個議題其實是在公平會裡頭最常被討論我們看到你們公平會的這個預算你們明年"},{"start":221.733,"end":246.009,"text":"的這個宣傳的費用對於多層次傳銷的宣傳費用只增加了73,000塊那看起來其實公平會每一年都有編列相關的宣導的費用可是主委你會不會覺得你能這樣子宣導而且第一個經費很少成效不顯著第二個你的宣導"},{"start":247.301,"end":271.36,"text":"的成果其實並沒有達到你每一年違反多層次傳銷的這一些違規的案件違規的件數其實還是在不斷的增加當中那113年因為到現在這個是到7月底的統計報告所以到今年年底會有多少件我現在還看不到你們現在還沒送出資料出來"},{"start":272.113,"end":285.126,"text":"但是我覺得就整體而言你在多層次傳銷的這些宣導上面其實並沒有達到你們應該有的效果那你增加了7萬塊我不知道你7萬塊可以做什麼"},{"start":286.698,"end":290.702,"text":"多層次傳銷我們這7萬塊跟過去來比相較於其他的廣泉確實不多那我們在過去因為多層次傳銷的業務這些業者是"},{"start":302.816,"end":303.257,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":318.394,"end":320.035,"text":"公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金：反托拉斯基金"},{"start":341.351,"end":353.202,"text":"沒有達到你們應該有的目的那感覺上就是在消化預算而已這個我認為在審查預算的時候我們會再提出來跟公平會做討論我覺得你們應該要好好的去檢討一下你這個宣傳的費用應該怎麼花應該要花在哪裡應該要宣傳哪一個部分我覺得這個是公平會應該做的事情"},{"start":363.891,"end":382.551,"text":"我們一方面業者不應該有違法的行為一方面我們也在全省各地區有做宣告我告訴你啦當然是不應該有違法的行為但是我剛剛就講過了嘛會違法的人他還是會違法嘛第三個議題我要請教因為我時間剩下只有幾十秒齁這個剛剛大家都講到Uber Eats跟Fupenda的這個合併案齁"},{"start":383.872,"end":394.776,"text":"這個是我在你們的網站上面下載下來主委你們剛剛講公平公開但是公平會在針對Uber Eats的併購案的時候你們大概有608則是上網去表達意見相對比較其他的結合案這個意見表達是多的但是我們無法從網站上面看到這608則的意見內容是什麼"},{"start":413.303,"end":427.594,"text":"這有可能都是你們自己內參但是我們其實你講的公平公開我們其實很希望看到到底這608則談論的內容是什麼或者是說你們在審查的時候其實可以把它做一些彙整"},{"start":428.394,"end":443.88,"text":"讓大家你不必每一則都把文字敘述出來但是你可以讓社會大眾或者是讓評議委員很清楚的知道這608則裡頭討論的是關於哪一方面的贊成的居多還是反對的居多大家提出來的意見是什麼"},{"start":444.6,"end":470.83,"text":"我覺得這樣的所謂的公平公開其實對社會大眾來講是很重要的而且今天立法院裡頭我相信待會也會有很多的委員都會跟您問到這一題那我剛剛查了一下你們的法令你們講這個審查嘛12月19號以前要準播如果不行的話會再延個60天到明年3月以前我其實比較想知道的就是說如果"},{"start":471.963,"end":481.297,"text":"如果你們到最後是不同意他結合但是業者執意結合的時候政府會怎麼做?"},{"start":483.527,"end":511.976,"text":"如果 我講的是如果如果我們不同意結合他就不能結合可是他還是照樣結合啊他還是照做啊你剛剛講到說他們其實已經實際上在進行結合的工作了嘛其實審查還在你們這嘛但是實際上他們是不是已經開始在做進行的結合的工作包括人員包括配送包括等等內部的這些行政流程他一定不可能等你準博了之後才開始去做這些行政"},{"start":512.916,"end":514.637,"text":"我們如果禁止結合就不能結合 如果他這樣做的話"},{"start":539.929,"end":542.91,"text":"公平交易委員會主管．拉斯基金"},{"start":561.315,"end":585.337,"text":"綜合這個就是在法律上有處罰的規定而且相當嚴格如果你只是處罰而已後續的這些法律效力我想公平會可能還是要先設想在前面有些人會可能有一些公司會覺得說你這個也沒有太大的法律效力我就遣罰一罰就好了我們最終可以命令解散的那些停止營業這是最嚴重的處置所以在這個法律上是有機制去"},{"start":586.818,"end":615.038,"text":"你的勒令解散是解散哪一家?解散Uber Eats還是解散Foodpanda還是解散他結合的新公司他如果結合的新公司後面改一個名字來他告訴你他不是結合他只是重新創立一個新公司你要怎麼處理?這些問題你們都要想清楚喔我現在只是把這個問題拋出來有可能會發生這樣的狀況這個你們都要先去預先去試想他一定不會是用Uber Eats的名字或者是用Foodpanda的名字嘛他有可能你要求他解散"},{"start":615.678,"end":629.528,"text":"那他就把這兩家公司解散重新去組成一個新的公司他就沒有所謂合併結合的問題了嘛是不是可以規避掉這個法律上的問題我想這個你們都要去去詳細的去思考要去要要去想清楚啦好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時31分）謝謝主席，請公平會李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委早。主委，我想今天在討論公平會的預算，有幾個問題想要就教，第一個，臺灣隊在前幾天打贏了世界冠軍，全國上下都非常開心，但是我們就發現有一則新聞，我不曉得公平會有沒有去注意到，就是臺北市有一個業者叫喜傑獅，它在網路上就公開說如果它的這一篇貼文按了1個讚就可以折1塊錢，累積是無上限、折價是無上限，折扣的金額是沒有上限的，所以就被網友發現了這件事，網友在很短的時間之內就開始不斷地去按讚。主委，後來這家公司發現他們在很短的時間獲得了1.7萬個讚之後，這個公司就在沒有提前公告的情況之下，開始不斷地修改它的活動條件內容，總共修改了多達18次，甚至到網友已經都截圖了等等，這公司就直接說因為它的官網被攻擊，所以這個活動大概都不算，未來的這些……甚至什麼價格是被P圖的啦、折扣無法依照定價。主委，你們有沒有去注意到這一則新聞？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我有注意到。"],["邱委員議瑩：你有注意到，它有沒有涉及違反所謂的公平交易法跟不實的廣告，有沒有在整個消費行為上面涉及到相關的法令，誤導消費者啦、不當競爭啦、不實廣告啦，有沒有？你們會不會主動去啟動調查？會不會給臺灣的消費者一個合理的調查報告或者是一個合理的……"],["李主任委員鎂：因為它的行為……"],["邱委員議瑩：不管是處罰或者是其他的相關處置？"],["李主任委員鎂：它的行為簡單就是說優惠條件越來越縮水，限制的門檻越高，這部分我們會來調查了解，如果有違反我們的法令，當然就會依法去處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：我想應該很多網友都會去注意到這件事情，很多人都是要蹭著臺灣隊得冠軍，當然各式各樣的優惠，其實我覺得這個都難免，但是如果自己提出來的優惠在短時間之內改了18次，然後沒有任何的公告，而且它的優惠條件是越來越縮水，甚至到最後它講說它其實是官網被攻擊的話，我想誤導消費者或者是做不實廣告的成分其實是非常地大。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們會去查，事實上我們也收到一些檢舉，也有十幾件的檢舉，我們會去……"],["邱委員議瑩：已經有收到檢舉了是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，所以我們也會去了解調查。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，主委，我想今天其實很多委員都針對公平會在處理併購案或者是多層次傳銷，我想多層次傳銷的這個議題其實是在公平會裡頭最常被討論。我們看到你們公平會的預算，你們明年的宣傳費用，對於多層次傳銷的宣傳費用只增加了7萬3,000塊，看起來其實公平會每一年都有編列相關的宣導費用，可是主委你會不會覺得你們這樣宣導，第一個，經費很少，成效不顯著；第二個，你的宣導成果其實並沒有達到，每一年違反多層次傳銷的這些違規案件、違規件數其實還是在不斷地增加當中，113年到現在，因為這是到7月底的統計報告，所以到今年年底會有多少件，我現在還看不到，你們現在還沒送資料出來，但是我覺得就整體而言，你在多層次傳銷的這些宣導上面其實並沒有達到你們應該有的效果，你增加了7萬塊，我不知道你7萬塊可以做什麼，主委要不要簡要說明一下？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，多層次傳銷，我們這7萬塊跟過去來比，相較於其他的廣宣確實不多，我們在過去因為多層次傳銷的業務，這些業者是都備案，我們都有掌握這些業者。再來就是說我們也有傳保會，多層次傳銷這個傳保……"],["邱委員議瑩：其實你不是要去跟……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們一起合作，多元地去……"],["邱委員議瑩：業者做宣傳，會違規的業者，你不管宣傳100次、1萬次，它還是會違規……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於其他……"],["邱委員議瑩：你應該是要讓更多的社會大眾，尤其是我們現在在打詐，公平會其實你們的重點是在防制詐騙跟防制吸金的行為納入多層次傳銷，我覺得你的宣傳應該要納入這些東西，但是你的宣傳費用只增加了7萬塊，你剛剛跟我講的，你還是在對業者做宣傳……"],["李主任委員鎂：除了業者還有對民眾……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我覺得這個其實沒有達到你們應該有的目的，感覺上就是在消化預算而已，我認為在審查預算的時候，我們會再提出來跟公平會做討論，我覺得你們應該要好好地去檢討一下，你這個宣傳費用應該怎麼花、應該要花在哪裡、應該要宣傳哪一個部分，我覺得這個是公平會應該做的事情。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，一方面業者不應該有違法的行為，一方面我們也在全省各地區有做宣導。"],["邱委員議瑩：我告訴你啦！當然是不應該有違法的行為，但是我剛剛就講過了，會違法的人，他還是會違法嘛！","第三個議題我要請教，因為我時間只剩下幾十秒，剛剛大家都講到Uber Eats跟foodpanda的合併案，這個是我在你們的網站上面download下來的，主委，你們剛剛講公平、公開，但是公平會在針對Uber Eats的併購案的時候，你們大概有608則是上網去表達意見，相對其他的結合案，這個意見表達是多的，但是我們無法從網站上面看到這608則的意見內容是什麼，這有可能都是你們自己內參，但是你講的公平、公開，我們其實很希望看到到底這608則談論的內容是什麼，或者是說你們在審查的時候，其實可以把它做一些彙整，你不必每一則都把文字敘述出來，但是你可以讓社會大眾或者是讓評議委員很清楚地知道這608則裡頭討論的是關於哪一方面，贊成的居多還是反對的居多，大家提出來的意見是什麼，我覺得這樣所謂的公平、公開其實對社會大眾來講是很重要的，而且今天立法院裡頭，我相信待會也會有很多的委員都會跟您問到這一題。我剛剛查了一下你們的法令，你們講這個審查12月19號以前要准駁，如果不行的話會再延個60天到明年3月以前，我其實比較想知道的就是，如果你們到最後是不同意它結合，但是業者執意結合的時候，政府會怎麼做？如果，我講的是如果。"],["李主任委員鎂：如果我們不同意結合，它就不能結合。"],["邱委員議瑩：可是它還是照樣結合啊！它還是照做啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們有處罰的規定。"],["邱委員議瑩：您剛剛講到他們其實已經實際上在進行結合的工作了嘛！其實審查還在你們這兒嘛！但是實際上他們是不是已經開始在進行結合的工作？包括人員、包括配送、包括等等內部的這些行政流程，它一定不可能等你准駁了之後才開始去做這些行政事宜嘛！它一定是現在已經開始在做，雙方的律師應該已經開始在做這些條件交換，所有的paperwork應該都是現在已經在進行了嘛！如果你們反對它結合案的話，它前面做的這一些會付諸流水嗎？還是他們其實是會持續地進行下去？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們如果禁止結合就不能結合，如果它這樣做的話，一個分設事業，或是處分，或是股份如何處理，再來包括營業要轉讓等等，在我們的公平交易法第三十九條有一些必要的處分可以去矯正它偷跑的行為，如果沒有同意結合卻真的去結合，在法律上有處罰的規定，而且相當嚴格。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果你只是處罰而已，後續的這些法律效力，我想公平會可能還是要先設想在前面，可能有一些公司會覺得你這個也沒有太大的法律效力，我就錢罰一罰就好了。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們最重可以命令解散、勒令歇業、停止營業，這是最嚴重的處置，所以在法律上是有機制去處理這個違規的行為。"],["邱委員議瑩：你的勒令解散是解散哪一家？解散Uber Eats還是解散foodpanda？還是解散它結合的新公司？"],["李主任委員鎂：申報的事業。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果結合的新公司後面改一個名字送來，它告訴你不是結合，只是重新創立一個新公司，你要怎麼處理？"],["李主任委員鎂：只要是主體不變都是，因為主體不變。"],["邱委員議瑩：這些問題你們都要想清楚喔！"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們會注意這件事。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，我現在只是把這個問題拋出來，有可能會發生這樣的狀況，這個你們都要預先去試想，它一定不會是用Uber Eats的名字或是用foodpanda的名字嘛，有可能你要求它解散，它就把這兩家公司解散，重新去組成一個新的公司，就沒有所謂合併結合的問題了，是不是可以規避掉這個法律上的問題，我想你們都要詳細的去思考，要去想清楚啦！謝謝。"],["主席：請問在場委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。","現在請鄭正鈐質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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會提出來建議因為如果要是沒有那為什麼臺灣30年貧富差距會拉大而且所謂中產階級收入支出的能力沒有辦法因為各種物價成長的能力也跟著增加現在是這種問題"},{"start":413.528,"end":431.826,"text":"事實上如果說薪資的一個成長的部分即使我們薪資的成長是已經高過物價但是有高過物價嗎?有,一到九月的部分成長有高過物價有高過物價?是是是因為中國經濟出現中產反貧的現象中產階級或許和臺灣經濟不能相提並論但是臺灣社會貧富差距"},{"start":439.012,"end":456.483,"text":"讓中產階級實質的收支能力可以說是30年了瘦身有成那我請問主計長你認為臺灣貧富差距有沒有縮小的可能?有沒有辦法?事實上我們是以我們家裡收支在調查我們這個"},{"start":458.544,"end":486.126,"text":"比如說以五等位來分的話這中間的差距是在縮短然後我們也有透過一些相關的一個福利政策所以我們會讓這些移轉的支出來輔助說讓我們這些的一個差距能夠再縮短那你認為未來會不會越來越大換句話說就是算沒有緩貧甚至有可能這個因為貧富差距過大讓中產階級逐漸的消失會不會這種狀況"},{"start":487.627,"end":499.571,"text":"應該也不至於但是現在我們政策的部分我們可以針對這個部分來做一個加強讓它不會有發生這樣的一個現象主計長因為中產階級的優勢是如何拉高薪資是絕對的關鍵那因為家庭財富的堆疊"},{"start":505.313,"end":530.611,"text":"新資所得絕對是重要的成分30年來貧富差距拉大是事實那中產階級整個收支萎縮也是事實那多數中產階級新資所得停職更是事實對於中產階級新資所得成長的停職這個收支能力萎縮的現況我請問主計長你認為這種狀況是不是不可逆"},{"start":536.147,"end":550.685,"text":"是不是不可逆?應該也不會啦,這個也是我們努力的一個方向那如果是,那是不是可以宣告中產階級消失?如果不是,那請問政府解荒到底是要怎麼做?"},{"start":551.306,"end":563.454,"text":"所以政府都帶頭在調薪所以本身只有調薪一途就對了那還有一個相關的一個就是本身因為其實我們薪資的一個結構主要是因為我們的產業的結構不一樣現在都投資在"},{"start":566.716,"end":582.459,"text":"資本的一個投資所以在薪資的方面佔比就會比較偏低那這個部分呢因為也是時事所趨啦但是這個部分我們也是盡量能夠說希望能夠鼓勵各產業能夠來提高相關的一個薪資這部分都有在討論"},{"start":583.18,"end":604.156,"text":"因為面對薪資結構的問題,國安會主委劉靜清表示光是拉抬基本工資改變不了結構就本席了解政府目前所採取創造並培養更多高薪就業機會透過增加的稅收來加強社會福利來補足、附加"},{"start":605.477,"end":628.815,"text":"價值、低競爭力的這些產業負擔那我請問主計長這種節償補短的做法你認為是治標還是治本因為這種是要有一個鼓勵啦鼓勵產業所以一般國化會他會有一個相關的補助補助產業他或者是相關的補助薪水來提高一些員工的薪水我覺得這部分也是可行的"},{"start":629.281,"end":640.236,"text":"那長遠來看如果只能治標沒有辦法一籠聚籠那請問這種捕破網的做法是不是只能繼續下去因您看法"},{"start":641.168,"end":664.56,"text":"原則上我們就是在現有的一個財源下我們盡量能夠做到讓這個部分能夠盡量來改善這個部分這樣齁主計長我最後一個問題齁臺南市議員執行提到感嘆吃不起臺南一顆高麗菜210塊喔那據本席了解似乎啊癥結在於品種啦"},{"start":665.1,"end":676.686,"text":"但是價格決定更是取決於市場那國內這幾年的物價波動的狀況從原產地到終端零售似乎不時有爭議的狀況"},{"start":679.35,"end":694.564,"text":"那像這幾年蛋價、菜價的異常價格的頻傳那請問主計長你認為問題是出在哪裡是供需的私人還是供給銷售部透明你認為呢"},{"start":695.657,"end":723.411,"text":"因為供需的部分其實主要是受到颱風的影響或者一些那個災害的影響所以會有一些比較偏高但是經過過後以後大部分都回復到原來那這個部分可見我們在供需上其實是沒有問題的那你認為像行政院穩定物價小組對解決這些異常物價的事件到底能不能事先有一個預防或者是只能夠收拾善後"},{"start":724.398,"end":735.847,"text":"因為他都事先會做一些的一個調整包括油價的部分這個部分都會進行討論然後提出相關的一個對策所以這個部分也是一直都在進行中那個主計長因為你原來"},{"start":739.349,"end":739.389,"text":"等務委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時28分）謝謝主席，與會各位列席官員、部會首長，是不是請陳主計長？"],["主席：陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主計長，你好。主計長，我想最近有媒體報導，由於AI熱潮加持，出口表現優於預期，明年成長的展望有機會從8月那時候預估的3.26%上修，但是川普宣布將在明年1月20號上任後對墨西哥課徵25%的關稅，恐會重創高度集中當地的臺灣這些AI伺服器的供應鏈廠商。我想請問主計長，主計總處的經濟成長預估是不是有評估過川普關稅壁壘政策對臺灣影響下最後所呈現的數字？有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：根據我們初步的評估，這個部分的影響大概會在2026年以後才會比較展現出來，所以初期的部分粗估，以目前來講，我們8月分預估113年經濟成長是3.9%，但是第四季的狀況如果維持的話，以前3季的表現狀況，我們應該是有望能夠再往上升。"],["林委員德福：再往上提升？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員德福：亞洲開發銀行在9月下旬曾經指出，臺灣出口成長都集中在AI相關的產品，再加上地緣政治的風險，恐怕會對出口及成長造成下行的風險，請問主計長，國內目前是不是除了AI相關產業有成長的前景外，其餘產業都面臨停滯而且負成長？是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，目前第一個就是在投資的成長方面我們也是很好，再來就是消費的部分也是至少成長……"],["林委員德福：那你是不是認為其他產業都還不錯？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以目前來講，它的狀況是一直逐漸在復甦當中……"],["林委員德福：在復甦當中，那其他產業……"],["陳主計長淑姿：傳產也是這樣，尤其投資的部分都有成長，是很顯著的成長。"],["林委員德福：因為其他產業的競爭力如果沒有辦法同時提升，那對國內貧富差距的改善、薪資結構的合理化在未來的情況是不是會變得更困難？會不會？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以我們目前對薪資的預估，加上我們現在從政府帶頭的，我們對於約僱人員、受僱員工的相關薪資，譬如說承攬契約，我們都逐漸調整，除了基本工資的調整之外，我們也調到了三萬一，帶頭來帶領企業把薪資整個提升，所以原則上應該不會，我們從1到9月都是成長的。"],["林委員德福：是這樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["林委員德福：主計長，根據媒體報導，主計總處在今年4月公布國人家庭財富分配的調查報告有兩個關鍵數字的增減，印證一直以來多數人的憂心，也就是位於財富中間水準的這些族群，他們的財富占比合計差不多約三成，最有錢等級的財富占比則超過六成二。我想請教主計長幾個問題，請問主計長，對於中產階級的形式和實質，你認為應該數十年不變還是必須隨著時代社會的改變而所變化？你的看法是什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再跟委員報告，就是我們國富調查那個部分在30年前的調查方法和現在的調查方法不一樣，兩個數據你用來比較，因為比較的基礎不一樣，所以導致兩個結果。另外一個就是所謂的吉尼係數的問題，一般這種差距，如果我們跟外國一些相關的比較，我們也不是最高的。"],["林委員德福：以30年前的中產階級跟30年後現在的中產階級相比，你認為有哪些狀況的差異呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：關於這個部分，譬如說，我們現在都是用資料庫的數據去做整合，所以像這樣的數據就會比較精準，以前30年度做調查的基礎可能在調查過程中有很多數值是比較粗略的，所以這兩個是不可同日而語。但是有這種的差距，那是自由經濟發展必然的一個趨勢，也是一定有這樣一個相關的結果，所以也是必須。再來，加上我們房產一些相關的成長，這部分也是必然會有一些差距。"],["林委員德福：主計長，從疫情開始到結束，一直到現在，因為整個經濟情況的惡劣，中產階級面臨返貧的這種現象，而主計總處今年的國人家庭財富分配調查報告也讓外界對國內出現中產階級返貧現象產生一些質疑，請問主計長，你認為臺灣社會有沒有中產階級返貧的這種趨勢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以我們目前來看，其實並不是那麼明顯啦！"],["林委員德福：沒有哦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是認為……"],["林委員德福：如果有，你認為最主要的原因是什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們也是要做進一步的研究和探討，然後如果需要有相關的政策因應，我們也會提出建議。"],["林委員德福：如果沒有，為什麼臺灣30年貧富差距會拉大呢？而且所謂中產階級收入支出的能力沒有辦法因為各種物價成長跟著增加，現在是這種問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，如果是薪資成長的部分，其實我們薪資成長已經高過物價……"],["林委員德福：有高過物價嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，1到9月的部分薪資成長有高過物價。"],["林委員德福：因為中國經濟出現中產階級返貧的現象，或許和臺灣經濟不能相提並論，但是臺灣社會貧富差距讓中產階級實質的收支能力可以說是30年瘦身有成，請問主計長，你認為臺灣貧富差距有沒有縮小的可能？有沒有辦法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，以我們家庭收支調查，譬如說以五等位來分的話，這中間的差距是在縮短，然後我們也有透過一些相關的福利政策，會讓這些移轉的支出來扶助，讓這些差距能夠再縮短。"],["林委員德福：那你認為未來會不會越來越大？換句話說，雖然沒有返貧，是不是有可能因為貧富差距過大，讓中產階級逐漸消失，會不會有這種狀況？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該也不至於，但是現在政策的部分，我們可以針對這個部分來加強，讓它不會發生這樣的現象。"],["林委員德福：主計長，面對中產階級的憂心，如何拉高薪資是絕對的關鍵。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員德福：因為家庭財富的堆疊，薪資所得絕對是重要的成分，30年來貧富差距拉大是事實，中產階級整個收支萎縮也是事實，多數中產階級薪資所得停滯更是事實。對於中產階級薪資所得成長的停滯、收支能力萎縮的現況，請問主計長，你認為這種狀況是不是不可逆？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該也不會，這個部分也是我們努力的方向。"],["林委員德福：如果是，那是不是可以宣告中產階級消失？如果不是，請問政府解方到底是要怎麼做？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以政府都帶頭在調薪，本身這個部分……"],["林委員德福：只有調薪一途就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有相關的就是，我們的薪資結構主要是因為產業結構不一樣，現在都投資在資本的投資，所以在薪資的方面占比就會比較偏低，這個部分也是因為時勢所趨，但是我們也是希望鼓勵各產業儘量能夠來提高相關的薪資，他們都有在討論。"],["林委員德福：主計長，因為面對薪資結構的問題，國發會主委劉鏡清表示，光是拉抬基本工資，改變不了結構，就本席了解，政府目前所採取創造並培養更多高薪就業機會，透過增加的稅收來加強社會福利，來補足低附加價值、低競爭力的產業負擔。請問主計長，這種截長補短的作法，你認為是治標還是治本？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這種是要鼓勵產業，所以國發會一般會有相關的補助，補助產業或者是補助薪水，提高一些員工的薪水，我覺得這部分也是可行的。"],["林委員德福：長遠來看，如果只能治標，沒有辦法一榮俱榮，依您看法，請問這種補破網的作法是不是只能繼續下去？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上，就是在現有的財源下，我們儘量做到讓這個部分能夠改善。"],["林委員德福：主計長，最後一個問題，臺南市議員質詢提到，感嘆吃不起臺南一顆高麗菜210塊，據本席了解，似乎癥結在於品種，但是價格決定更是取決於市場，國內這幾年物價波動的狀況，從原產地到終端零售似乎不時有爭議的狀況，像這幾年蛋價、菜價異常價格頻傳，請問主計長，你認為問題是出在哪裡？是供需失衡，還是供給銷售不透明，你認為呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實主要是受到颱風的影響，或者一些災害的影響，所以價格會比較偏高一些，但是經過以後，大部分都回復到原來，這個部分可見我們在供需上其實是沒有問題的。"],["林委員德福：你認為像行政院穩定物價小組對解決這些異常物價的事件，到底能不能事先預防或者是只能夠收拾善後？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，它都事先會做一些調整，包括油價的部分都會進行討論，有提出相關的對策，所以這個部分也是一直都在進行中。"],["林委員德福：主計長，原來他可以買那麼多東西，因為物價上漲，上漲以後就回不去，所以很多老百姓過去可以買那麼多東西，現在買不到，他的痛苦指數就越飆越高，我想這是當下的問題。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員德福：應該要好好的去重視，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員。","接著請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","葉元之","黃珊珊","李彥秀"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審\n計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計\n處、審計部高雄市審計處部分；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市\n政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金","agenda_id":"11310702_00001"}}},{"id":"157573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec25796672c4b36d1b9ab6e2c25d3d95b2a46981bbcaec0eacdae93a43052525fe23673a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:30:38 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個學術的領域我們都會支持他在AI的這個應用研究"},{"start":302.316,"end":328.225,"text":"主委我這邊也提醒一下因為您講的經濟部這個比例其實有一些部會已經佔到某一些部會的預算比例非常的高了所以大家對於產業面非常重視但是本席這邊也要提醒當這個AI的基底可能也要建立的比較紮實的情況下我們未來產業發展才會相對比較健康我們現在發現不管是AI或者是許多事情在各領域常常都是基礎不夠穩固"},{"start":330.126,"end":352.023,"text":"所以像在教育的層面那也常常某一些學校這個在人才的培育上可能老師的部分或者是培養AI人才或培養相關人才的這一個區塊其實是也不太足所以本席要提醒這個主委有關於這個AI的那個內容跟人才的培育上可能要相當程度的去注意不知道主委對於這個看法"},{"start":353.004,"end":376.094,"text":"所以我們也支持教育部在AI的教材的開發那國科會會注重在技術的發展工具的發展我們很多的教授都會相繼投入所以最後的提醒就是說您在那個跟教育部的這個平台上可能要提醒他們那你們自己可能如果也可以做那本席是希望教導AI的人才"},{"start":376.854,"end":387.26,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":404.269,"end":405.369,"text":"：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":423.146,"end":425.648,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":441.587,"end":442.548,"text":"我們在零件在模組在硬體的這個製造上面我們是沒有問題"},{"start":461.468,"end":483.287,"text":"而人才呢?人才現在正在增加人才的培育。我們在幾個大學也設立了太空研究所。中央大學、成功大學、淡江大學。但是我們的太空人才夠嗎?就是相關的人才。我們當然是希望能夠再吸引更多的年輕人加入。所以這個部分也請你在跟教育部的一些平台上也能夠再做更多的一個推動。"},{"start":484.168,"end":484.848,"text":"adequate 強權"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":159,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時30分）謝謝主席，立院還有行政院的夥伴同仁們，大家好。首先先請吳主委，謝謝。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：主委早。我先呼應一下剛才幾位委員有關注的事情，因為有一件事情我這邊本來今天也要做個提醒，因為今天跟預算有相關，所以我希望主委未來在執行預算的時候，能夠注意我們提點的這些重點。在先前的質詢裡面我有提到，院裡面有一些碩博士級的科研人員，他們可能碰到一個困難是沒有辦法很順利地進入學界或產業，當時也希望院裡面能夠了解實際的狀況，看能夠怎麼處理，看起來有點變成像短期的打工仔。","可是現在我們可能要關注另外一個問題，這一些人也有一些反映，某些個案會覺得有點像被剝削的狀況，在這種職場氛圍的情況下，我要特別提醒院裡面要正視他們的出路及未來的可能性，不要讓他們成為短期的打工仔，另外可能也要針對他們在院裡面、在一些個案的研究上，可能在工作職場的氛圍跟工作職場上的工作份量，可能院裡面要特別注意，主委應該是可以來處理這件事情吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，可以接受。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。接下來，我也是提醒我曾經問過的，先前我提到國科會在公私立大學的補助上有很大的落差，所以這個數據我們先前也已經都看過了，雖然你們在對學生的補助上，差距相對少一點，相較於47所公立大學，其他的都是私立大學，對大學生的計畫案件也還有一些需要再努力的空間，但是我們可以從公私立大學對老師的研究補助看出差異太大，所以這個部分不知道主委是不是可以承諾在明年有相當程度的調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們其實是很鼓勵私立大學的老師來申請，但是因為目前的狀況是研究生大部分集中在公立大學比較多……"],["林委員倩綺：所以研究生的差異比較沒有那麼大嘛？但公私立大學老師的差異就很大了，當然可能還有一種情形……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們一定都是公平的，但是希望能夠鼓勵私立大學的老師多申請，我們未來會注意這一點……"],["林委員倩綺：對，可能你們還要……"],["吳主任委員誠文：儘量能夠創造一些環境還有主題……"],["林委員倩綺：對，更大的宣傳，然後有一些環境。"],["吳主任委員誠文：比較適合私立大學甚至技職院校的申請，我們會創造這樣的計畫出來。"],["林委員倩綺：對，那你們可能要讓他們知道現在國科會還是有機會的，因為太多人聽到說反正國科會這裡沒機會，那他乾脆不要浪費時間來申請，長期有這樣子的一個印象，所以希望主委這個部分也能夠克服這樣一個問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們會努力做這件事，其實我們已經規劃了一個……能夠讓大學老師帶著學生，比較接近我們社會需求端、產業面，做比較實務型的研究，這部分我們現在正在加強當中。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，那就麻煩主委在明年的推動上能夠更積極。接下來我來講一下，也有委員提到，我還是要再提醒一下，在AI行動計畫裡面關於國科會的角色，我們目前在統籌各部會的AI行動計畫，我們在AI的國際排名也漸漸往下滑，一些細部計畫對於績效的達升，這點是非常重要。所以我想了解一下目前國科會在AI行動計畫上，跟其他部會一起合作的情況，主委這邊可以說明一下嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個AI行動計畫2.0在114年編列的總數是157億元，其中包含經濟部、國科會、數發部、教育部、農業部、交通部、衛福部，都有執行相關的計畫，經濟部的計畫有76.6億，其實是最多的，經濟部牽涉到我們AI在產業發展部分，這一部分有賴於經濟部來帶動產業的發展，國科會是支持學術研究的部分，大概編列了51億元，在各種學術的領域，我們都會支持它在AI的應用、研究。"],["林委員倩綺：主委，我這邊也提醒一下，因為您講到經濟部的比例，其實已經占到某一些部會的預算比例非常的高了，大家對於產業面非常重視，但是本席這邊也要提醒，當AI的基底可能也要建立得比較紮實的情況下，我們未來產業發展才會相對比較健康。","我們現在發現，不管是AI或者是許多事情，在各領域常常基礎不夠穩固，所以像在教育的層面，常常某一些學校在人才的培育上，可能老師的部分或者是培養AI人才或培養相關人才的這一個區塊，其實也不太足。所以本席要提醒主委有關於AI的內容跟人才的培育上，可能要有相當程度的注意，不知道主委對於這個有什麼樣子的看法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意，所以我們也支持教育部在AI教材的開發，國科會注重在技術的發展、工具的發展，我們很多教授都會相繼投入，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：所以最後的提醒是，您在跟教育部的平臺上，可能要提醒他們，你們自己如果也可以做，本席希望關於教導AI人才的部分，這點要非常地注意，要不然這幾年很多政策都彈出來之後，你以為民間或者是相關人等就自動會了嗎？這個不盡然，所以我覺得這是目前很大的問題跟困難，所以再次提醒。","最後一點我問一下主委，請問您在太空長程計畫及B5G的低軌通訊衛星計畫，目前因為有疫情、關鍵元件的一些障礙，所以導致整個進度有點變慢，在10月14號衛星通訊產業策略會議當中，本席想了解對於相關計畫的提出，是不是能夠如期完成本席所講的，剛才以上這些跟你們相關的計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們今年、明年的計畫其實執行都很順利，但是因為……"],["林委員倩綺：整體來講，還是有點……"],["吳主任委員誠文：未來幾年，因為前面有疫情的關係，還有全世界地緣政治的影響，我們現在正在修正太空計畫三期……"],["林委員倩綺：我知道我們在衛星及火箭的自製能量上，因為我們的半導體還有資通訊、機密工業等等基礎是蠻穩固的，所以本席想請教一下，目前在技術上有沒有困難？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在零件、在模組、在硬體的製造上面，我們是沒有問題的，但……"],["林委員倩綺：那人才呢？人才的部分呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：關於人才方面，現在正在增加人才的培育，我們在幾個大學也設立了太空研究所……"],["林委員倩綺：對，就中央大學、成功大學、淡江大學，但是我們的太空人才夠嗎？就是相關的人才。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然是希望能夠再吸引更多的年輕人加入。"],["林委員倩綺：所以這個部分也請你在跟教育部的一些平臺上，能夠再做一些更多的推動，現在各強權都已經在講太空時間，我們雖然可能沒辦法有這個角色，但是至少我們在實際上的位置，我們可以提供相當程度的內容。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是的，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：所以希望主委這邊也能夠積極跟盡力的來推動，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，主委請回。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：我們請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157572","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157572","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966d422524d8a5d573ea85017ab97aa926fbbcaec0eacdae93a1a6072d9306be1cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:19:39 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以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時19分）有請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：主席，不好意思，資訊的問題你能不能處理一下？"],["主席：好，時間暫停。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝，謝謝主席。","好，本席也延續陳亭妃委員的議題，關於外送平臺整併一事，我認為必須要加速、透明，加速及透明，因為這個會涉及到這三個：消費者、從業人員跟產業，以及第四個，就是這個平臺，這個平臺串起了這三個：消費者、產品的提供者以及產業。後疫情時代，外送服務已經改變了商業服務的模式，外送平臺已成為現代的消費模式，在疫情後，外送服務成為國人的日常，也為我們在地的餐飲業者，提供了嶄新的銷售管道，但政府的角色是什麼？如何讓這個市場能夠在公平競爭的環境中成長，讓國人跟在地業者都能夠受惠。整併所帶來的市場集中化，若不加以管控，形成市場壟斷，讓消費者失去選擇的多樣性，而且也壓縮在地提供產品小型業者的生存空間，這也會造成不公平的競爭壓力。好，本席要問您這次的外送平臺結合審查案，市場界定範圍是什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：就本案來看，它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平臺。"],["林委員岱樺：餐飲，就是銷售供給者，還有外送。"],["李主任委員鎂：餐飲外送平臺。"],["林委員岱樺：所以消費者的需求市場跟本身投入的外送人員，即勞動力的媒合者，這不是你們要管的？今天的這個平臺，為什麼大家會重視？除了市占率它會達到九成耶！包括它所涉及本身的勞動力會不會被壓榨？因為壟斷之後被壓榨，消費者的選擇、採購的權利是不是也縮小？包括餐飲業者幾乎沒有辦法去應付這種壓榨的情況，是不是也被市場邊緣？這就是你的市場界定範圍僅限於平臺跟勞動人員、外送人員嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為這是兩個平臺的結合，我們就要去看臺灣目前經營外送平臺的行業，所以它的市場界定就是餐飲外送平臺。"],["林委員岱樺：就是要管平臺，其他的你們在審查過程它所會影響的……"],["李主任委員鎂：第一個……"],["林委員岱樺：只就它市場面的獨占性，對於所有相關的外送平臺所媒合的三個需求市場，你們是不管的？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是、不是。"],["林委員岱樺：餐飲銷售供給、消費者需求、勞動力服務媒介，這不是你的市場界定？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們先界定市場是什麼，這個市場的利害關係人有餐廳、有外送員、有消費者，所以這個對市場的影響，就會把剛才委員提到的消費者也好，餐廳也好，及外送人員一起考量。"],["林委員岱樺：好，你們在過程當中有跟目的事業主管機關交通部公路總局去討論如何節制外送平臺業者及輔導外送員，以及輔導餐飲銷售市場跟消費者嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在跨機關聯繫都有，除了交通部、數位部、經濟部，對他們產業所輔導的對象或是關心的對象，都會一起列入我們在競爭評估的考量。"],["林委員岱樺：好，OK。公平會這邊應該避免三輸：消費者輸，外送平臺集中之後，消費者的選擇會減少，少數平臺掌控市場後，會提高服務費、配送費及擴大通膨的影響；餐廳輸，對地區型的中小型餐飲，其議價能力本身就不足，平臺合併後的抽成和費用結構將會進一步的加重其經營壓力，這種競爭格局就更不平等，部分的餐飲業者可能就要被迫退出外送市場，淪為市場的邊緣；外送人員輸，當平臺結合後，如果沒有有效管制外送員的工作條件、收入結構，就會遭遇到更大的壓力，市場集中化可能會導致外送員的工時、報酬遭到壓縮，而且也會讓外送員的工作選擇自由減少了，也形成更低的勞動條件跟待遇。這是本席最不希望看到的，也希望公平會要避免三輸。統一加維力的合併案市占率65%，公平會就三度把它駁回掉，這次Uber Eats跟foodpanda合起來將近九成，公平會就要更謹慎了，希望審查結果能夠讓餐飲業、從業人員、消費者權益得到三贏局面。本席想瞭解，為什麼5月收件之後，11月才開始正式的受理跟要求補件，拖了6個月，為什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：這期間有當事人補件的機會，還有對各界的意見，我們會請合併事業要提出說明，所以這中間有一些補件的過程，等文件齊備以後，才正式進入審查。"],["林委員岱樺：好，你們如何確保審查程序更為公開、透明呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們的審查會有委員會來針對所有資料……"],["林委員岱樺：那委員會不會對外公開啊！包括剛才陳委員這邊提到連蒐整過程也要公開、透明，你們的公開、透明怎麼針對這14萬人的相關利益人跟社會大眾？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想委員會……"],["林委員岱樺：包括那些餐飲業者，你是看不到的。"],["李主任委員鎂：對於這幾個月來各界的意見，我們委員都會瞭解，我們都會承諾……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你的公開、透明還沒有做到更公開、透明啊！就只有在內部審查，外界只有被動地接受你的成果而已。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員會的審查有一定的程序，我想對這個案子會審慎處理。"],["林委員岱樺：好，具體回應一下，當然本席期待公平會更加速、更有效地處理外送平臺合併案，確保審查過程的透明度，請在一個禮拜內回應本席，你怎麼讓這個過程更為公開、透明，除了你剛才講的那個機制，我認為不夠公開、還不夠透明，為防止市場壟斷，對消費者、從業人員跟中小型餐飲業者產生負面影響，下一題請你具體回答我，你什麼時候完成此案的審查，並對外完整公布？因為你的任期到明年1月31號，雖然你是續任的主委，但對於這個案子，你已經拖了6個月，當然你有一些解釋，也可以3個月完成啊！也可以4個月完成，但你就拖了半年。從現在算起，你的任期到1月31號，你是要拖過任期呢？還是要什麼時候結束呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們的法定審查期間是齊備之後30天，所以11月18號往後算30個工作天是到12月19號，必要還需要再延長的話，可以再延長60個工作天。"],["林委員岱樺：我知道規定，那您什麼時候讓它處理掉？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個要看委員會。"],["林委員岱樺：你的任期是到1月31號，所以你是覺得有沒有拖過任期都沒關係，反正就是照程序來。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們審……"],["林委員岱樺：反正你是續任的主委了，反正沒有人可以監督你，對啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們審這個案子，一定照法定程序來處理，我不會把任期與否作為考量因素，主要是看委員會的討論情形。"],["林委員岱樺：所以到1月31號再繼續拖就對了？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會拖、不會拖。"],["林委員岱樺：在你任期前可不可以結束？"],["李主任委員鎂：要看委員會討論的情形。"],["林委員岱樺：你是主委啊！你是在主導會議的人。"],["李主任委員鎂：我主導會議，但是我沒有辦法主導委員可能提出的問題，或者對於案情的瞭解……"],["林委員岱樺：沒有問題，當然不能主導他們，但是對於時程你可以要求啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：時程上要看委員討論的內容，有沒有需要再進一步瞭解。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你這個主委就是沒有辦法處理嘛！你的這個主委跟國發會主委、僑委會主委，跟之前農委會的主委（現在叫農業部）是不一樣的，你這個主委是架空的？"],["李主任委員鎂：這就是獨立機關委員會性質不一樣的地方，因為每一位委員有他獨立的判斷。"],["林委員岱樺：最後一題，所以你不認為在你任期一定要完成，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們一定會儘速審慎來處理這個案件。"],["林委員岱樺：對，不會在你任期完成嘛！好，那你就繼續拖吧！就看到你的態度……"],["李主任委員鎂：不會拖、不會拖。"],["林委員岱樺：我覺得公平會是可以廢掉的，再一次證明本席的主張。再來，公平會是否應偕同公路總局、消保會、勞動部等相關單位，強化外送平臺的管制作為跟相關關係人的輔導，以避免不對等的商業行為產生呢？來回應一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：交通部、消保會、勞動部等等對外送員以及外送平臺都有一些會議，我們都有參與，其中如果跟公平競爭、跟競爭有關的，我們責無旁貸，一定要一起來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：好，所以你們不做輔導的工作？"],["李主任委員鎂：基本上，我們是對它有沒有違反競爭秩序的行為來進行判斷。"],["林委員岱樺：好，我再抓住你這句話就好，這句話就符合你的職掌，那你為什麼要去管多層次傳銷？"],["李主任委員鎂：我沒有……"],["林委員岱樺：你的多層次傳銷，我現在講的管制跟輔導，你怎麼做到輔導？你可以做到仲裁，你是一個仲裁角色。"],["李主任委員鎂：因為目前的法律，我們要根據法律來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：對！所以要改嘛！但是重點是你認不認同？你認同要改，您當到現在了，你還來跟我講是法律問題，對社會共識、社會目前問題的掌握以及問題解決方法，你要很明確才去改你的法令、你的預算、你的人事啊！你在這裡跟我講枝枝節節的，所以公平會是一個仲裁角色、是一個管制角色，它不是輔導角色，所以你答這一題就是去彰顯你不該對多層次傳銷作為主管機關，你是要去綜理它，各部會只要涉及任何競爭，包括金管會，銀行跟銀行間的合併要不要找你？要不要會同你？"],["李主任委員鎂：只要跟本會的業務有關，我們都會跨機關瞭解。"],["林委員岱樺：當然啊！對啊！那你可以去輔導銀行嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果跟競爭有關，我們也會跟銀行有聯繫，對於這個倡議也會處理。"],["林委員岱樺：對啊！你就是針對競爭、不公平、市場嘛！對多層次傳銷，你當然可以對它做合併或壟斷市場的強制管理作為啊！但你可以輔導它嗎？多層次傳銷行業在你這邊，你可以輔導它嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前多層次傳銷管理法是本會主管的業務。"],["林委員岱樺：對，你可以輔導它嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們可以輔導，我們……"],["林委員岱樺：你可以輔導，你覺得這角色沒有衝突嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會有衝突。"],["林委員岱樺：不會衝突喔？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["林委員岱樺：你應該叫行政院長，你什麼部會都要管欸！因為金管會的東西也應該到你這邊來管啊，我只要法令一修，銀行這邊就管到你了啊，包括foodpanda這個東西也應該改為是你，因為你可以輔導。好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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議然後卓院長也特別提到了就是說希望各部會能夠在一個禮拜之內能夠做一些的調查那我想請問主委你們國科會開始清查了嗎你們有定力有關於職場防治霸凌的辦法嗎"},{"start":27.162,"end":46.881,"text":"我們已經有定的辦法而且也公告了,然後也召集國科會所有的主管從基層...是,你們是11月才訂立了,是比其他各部會慢很多,是經過卓院長指示之後你們才會提出這些要點嗎?我們其實在之前已經差不多完成了,"},{"start":47.461,"end":48.882,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":66.249,"end":71.773,"text":"我們正在清查當中,那我...你不是已經訂立了嗎?然後卓院長說一個禮拜之內就要清查完畢嗎?我為什麼要提到這個部分?因為你們有基層的員工跟我反映。主管為了迎合國科會的長官,任意調動他們的工作內容、工作點,如果不願意去就會放話,不去就要辭職。你知道有這個狀況嗎?"},{"start":87.25,"end":110.347,"text":"我們的確內部有些反應我們正在這個必須要經過我們原來規定辦法規定的我們用科學數據來說法其實我直指我講的就是你們的科證中心有人反映你們的主管是逼迫員工一定要派駐到國科會的駐點而且有國科會協助相關的業務我強調是最近4年"},{"start":111.107,"end":111.947,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":131.226,"end":154.734,"text":"你覺得合理嗎?我們因為在施政上面人力不足公務員的編制不足所以我們還是得要但是你知道這些你跟人家簽的合作契約上並不是這樣子我還是要強調你每年派回超過一個處事的人力然後這些人要做兩份的工作不是派回來那邊就不管了而且最重要的是你有沒有問過這些平凡調動的員工他們的想法"},{"start":157.475,"end":158.815,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":175.08,"end":176.661,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委。第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委。"},{"start":194.178,"end":209.359,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這一部分可能有部分原因是因為是計劃約聘的人員那計劃人員都是定期的我在學術界我知道但是主委你不能拿這個當一個表面的部分因為有人來而且不只你們一位"},{"start":209.639,"end":210.9,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委。第三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":230.51,"end":231.711,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":247.142,"end":250.625,"text":"主委好好徹查一下這個才是很重要不要給他們一開始就給他們太多的理由已經發生這樣的狀況一個單位43%的人離職不是只有因為計劃結束才做這種調動這沒有辦法說服本席"},{"start":262.056,"end":289.823,"text":"好,我們一定會徵詢同仁的意願,我們才會做這個表達。當然,這是很重要,這是你當初的法規上跟他製作,而且主管如果遇到這個部分,你用言語做這樣子的處理,用烤雞來做要挾,做這樣的一個情緒勒索,我覺得發生勞動部的事情,主委我相信你也不希望發生在。我不希望,是是。你當然不希望,所以請你好好徹查這一件事情。一個禮拜可不可以告訴我你們的結果是如何。"},{"start":290.223,"end":291.684,"text":"第11、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第11、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":315.516,"end":334.6,"text":"資料庫的部分裡面其實是非常重要的但是呢很多專家因為投資資源來做繁體中文的資料庫為什麼要特別提出來因為全世界模型中有台灣內容的比改造會講台灣語的模型更具有長期的效益為什麼要特別提出來因為簡體的中文占16.2這個database12.2我們繁體中文只有占0.05所以我們常常download要去查部分常常有很多我不太熟悉的不夠尊敬的什麼什麼大人"},{"start":344.702,"end":361.408,"text":"這些都不是非常在我們一般習慣的台灣的用語出現所以你與其做這樣的一個事情我覺得你們是否但是我看一下你們的內容你們所這個部分當中來反體中文的這樣的資料庫沒有反映在你們的預算當中但是呢"},{"start":362.028,"end":364.689,"text":"很難是有你們的反應在這個層面當中而且呢你繼續編了1.4億來精進你們模型的開發並不是不行但是我個人認為你每年投資300億的AI經費為什麼沒有辦法建構一個打從心裡我們一搜尋就可以到的繁體中文資料庫呢這個沒有在你們的經費當中啊"},{"start":385.068,"end":404.642,"text":"這一部分我認同委員的建議我們後續會...而且我說實在你們像所有世界各國他們的AI在對Database的建構上面他們已經鬆綁法規而且民間跟政府一起來使用但是我們目前TED的訓練資料都只是局促在公部門"},{"start":405.162,"end":405.622,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":425.503,"end":427.464,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":442.428,"end":460.982,"text":"這個部分我想這個主委很重要最後我要來問一下因為時間的關係我們高雄科學院這個高雄科學的實驗中學我只要花了27億來做建校的工作然後目前要放在我們的吉拉塔我們的橋頭但是你看看這個比率這個主委你知道大概會有多少學生嗎基本上"},{"start":463.336,"end":469.921,"text":"但是我還是要提醒主委,雖然你發了二十七要做一些軟硬體的建構但是你看看114年園區實驗的一些訓練輔助你只編了五億多然後呢南科佔了七成雖然我們是籌配只有四百零一萬但是我還是要提醒主委因為未來高雄南子橋科面積不比"},{"start":490.436,"end":493.398,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第11、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委第11、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":517.551,"end":518.492,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":539.005,"end":559.738,"text":"我覺得這個主委你應該是充分去了解,因為這個報道率、招生率很低。報告員我了解啦,就是因為我們有入學資格的限制啦。有啊。所以我剛剛講,園區的就業人口的組成,如果沒有到這個需求量,我們是有這樣的這個空間,但是我們也是歡迎說有啊,你們也會點。"},{"start":560.718,"end":560.998,"text":"及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":579.238,"end":596.674,"text":"不要忽略高雄科學高雄實驗中學的籌備還有他的資源的分配現在南科站的七成多未來請你多分一點能夠讓他秘密居到我覺得這個部分這個才是本期要再次的提醒好不好我們所有原期實驗中學會一視同仁好 數據還是一樣但是我還是你的霸凌的問題一個禮拜請交出報告給本期好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝柯志恩委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時20分）謝謝召委，我們是不是請主委？"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委好。目前勞動部因為職場霸凌引發非常多的爭議，卓院長也特別提到的，希望各部會能夠在一個禮拜之內做一些調查。我想請問主委，你們國科會開始清查了嗎？你們有訂立關於職場防治霸凌的辦法嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經有訂了辦法而且也公告了，然後也召集國科會所有的主管，從基層到……"],["柯委員志恩：是，你們是11月才訂立的，比其他各部會慢很多，是經過卓院長指示之後你們才提出這些要點嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們其實之前已經差不多完成了。"],["柯委員志恩：差不多完成，但我還是要說，我真正看到是11月，而且你們的回應告訴我就是11月，這個時間讓我覺得有點驚訝，因為這我個人認為國科會在這一塊應該要做得更確實。你認不認為你們國科會會有霸凌的現象？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們正在清查當中，那我……"],["柯委員志恩：你不是已經訂立了嗎？然後卓院長說一個禮拜之內就要清查完畢嘛。我為什麼要提到這個部分？因為你們有基層的員工跟我反映，主管為了迎合國科會的長官，任意調動他們的工作內容、工作點，如果不願意去就會放話，不去就要辭職！你知道有這個狀況嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的確……"],["柯委員志恩：有沒有這個狀況？"],["吳主任委員誠文：內部有些反映，這個必須要經過我們辦法規定的……"],["柯委員志恩：來，我們用科學數據來說話，其實我直指、我講的就是你們的科政中心，也有人反映你們的主管逼迫員工一定要派駐到國科會的駐點，而且要協助國科會相關的業務。我強調是最近四年！科政中心派到國科會的人逐年在增加，110年17個，到現在是36個。主委，一個科大概是6個人，通常一個處室4個科也才只有24人，然後科政中心每年派駐超過一個處室的人力回到國科會，你覺得這樣合理嗎？你覺得合理嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們因為在施政上面人力不足、公務員的編制不足，所以我們很多事情還是得要……"],["柯委員志恩：好，但是你跟人家簽的合作契約上並不是這樣子，我還是要強調，你每年派回超過一個處室的人力，然後這些人要做兩份的工作，不是派回來他那邊就不管了。而且最重要的是，你有沒有問過這些頻繁調動員工的想法？當初他跟你們科政中心簽的是這樣的約，結果你發派他回來、派回到你們國科會；但是如果他不想的話，他們沒有自主意願的話，主管就放話，要嘛就給你非常低劣的考績、要嘛你就必須辭職。","為什麼我們可以這樣講呢？你去看看，科政中心每年離職的人數超過40人，離職率是三成；最離譜的是110年，當時你還沒有來的時候，高達59人離職，離職率是43%耶！難道你看到這些數據不覺得這個地方、這些員工的意願想法有問題嗎？數據在這裡，主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員提醒，這方面可能有部分原因是計畫約聘的人員，計畫人員都是定期的。"],["柯委員志恩：我在學術界這個我知道，但是主委，你不能拿這個當做表面的部分……"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是……"],["柯委員志恩：因為有人來，而且你們不只一位，這個中心不只一位私底下來跟本席說，你們有些時候違背員工的意願派回國科會做兩份工作，你看你們的法人，我們給你們202億，結果你編過去給這些法人，法人再把這些人搬回國科會，這是怎樣？最主要是你有沒有問過他們的意願？如果不符合這個意願，要是他不離職也受到非常多言語的霸凌；要是沒有辦法忍受下去就離開。所以你看離職率這麼高，這個不只是他們因為計畫結束就走，這個我知道，這是有人已經受不了才來跟本席反映的！主委，好好徹查一下，這個才是很重要。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我會查一下。"],["柯委員志恩：不要一開始就給他們太多的理由，已經發生這樣的狀況，一個單位43%的人離職，不是只有因為計畫結束才做這種調動，這沒有辦法說服本席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，我們一定會徵詢同仁的意願才會做這種調動。"],["柯委員志恩：當然，這很重要！這是你當初的合約上這樣說，而且主管如果遇到這個部分，他用言語做這樣子的處理、用考績來做要脅、做這樣的情緒勒索！我覺得在發生勞動部的事情之後，主委，我相信你也不希望發生在……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不希望，是！"],["柯委員志恩：你當然不希望，所以請你好好徹查這一件事情，可不可以一個禮拜告訴我你們的結果是如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["柯委員志恩：卓院長說一個禮拜請你們徹查完畢，我不過符合他的想法而已。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，一個禮拜內。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝你。","接下來我們要看優化的部分，我相信……就像剛剛大家所提到的，主權AI我也覺得非常重要，如果國科會要花錢做這些事情，本席也同意。但是我個人覺得你在做這樣的事情當中，是不是能做到最基本的一個部分，舉例來說，像是建置這個資料庫。資料庫的部分其實非常重要，但是很多專家建議要投資資源來做繁體中文的資料庫，為什麼要特別提出來？因為全世界的模型中，有臺灣內容的比打造會講臺灣語言的模型更具有長期的效益，為什麼要特別提出來？因為簡體中文占database的16.2%，我們繁體中文只有占0.05%，所以當我們download要查的部分，常常有很多我不太熟悉的，例如尊敬的什麼什麼大人，這些都不會在我們一般習慣的臺灣用語出現。","所以你與其做這樣的一個事情，我覺得你們是否……但是我看一下你們的內容，在你們這個部分當中，繁體中文這樣的資料庫沒有反應在你們的預算當中，你們很難反應在這個層面當中；而且你繼續編了1.4億來精進你們模型的開發，並不是不行，但是我個人認為，你每年投資300億的AI經費，為什麼沒有辦法建構一個打從心裡、我們一搜尋就可以到的繁體中文資料庫呢？這個沒有在你們的經費當中。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分我認同委員的建議，我們後續會……"],["柯委員志恩：而且我說實在的，世界各國他們的AI在對database的建構上面已經鬆綁法規，而且民間跟政府一起來使用，但是我們目前TAIDE的訓練資料都只是侷限在公部門，你知道最大的data是在我們民間，但是這有法規等等部分。所以你是科技的政委，你可以跨部會來去做協調，研議法規的鬆綁，你要跟民間來合作，這才是世界的趨勢！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在努力當中，但是因為現在有關資料的使用，我們……"],["柯委員志恩：法規啊！所以你就必須要……"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，法規還有……"],["柯委員志恩：所以我就建議你，你現在是跨部會的科技政委，不是只有國科會主委，你還是跨部會的科技政委！你應該帶頭來去做，不要讓我們永遠都只在公部門。這個資料庫沒有建構好，你再有模組、再去精進開發，我覺得先把基礎先做好，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們持續努力。"],["柯委員志恩：好，這個部分我想主委很重要。","最後我要來問一下，因為時間的關係，有關高雄科學園區實驗中學預計要花27億來做建校的工作，然後目前要放在我們的橋頭，但是你看看這個比例，主委，你知道這個高雄的基本上大概會有多少學生嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們預計會收1,000，最後到1,800位。"],["柯委員志恩：我還是必須要提醒主委，雖然你花了27億要做一些軟硬體的建構，是你看看114年園區實驗中學的一些訓練輔助你只編了五億多，然後南科占了七成，雖然我們是籌備處，所以只有401萬，但是我還是要提醒主委，因為未來高雄楠梓橋科的面積不比南科來得小，而且它裡面……我比較好奇的是後面，你看你們建構的這些所謂雙語，這是所有海外學人回來最想要的，但是除了新竹科學園區的雙語招生可以達到70%以上，其他不管中科、南科、嘉科、屏科，其實雙語的招生都只有在40%左右。這個比例也讓我很驚訝，是因為找不到好的雙語老師還是什麼因素？我覺得主委你要去了解一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個跟園區的就業人口其實是有……"],["柯委員志恩：其實有關係，但是在招生這個部分，雙語竟然沒有辦法招到超過五成，這個東西一定是跟你們整個管理，還有包括師資的聘用等等有關，看看竹科、再看看其他南部的，我覺得……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是我們……"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得這部分主委應該充分去了解，因為這個報到率、招生率很低。"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我了解，因為我們有入學資格的限制。"],["柯委員志恩：有啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我剛剛講園區的就業人口組成，如果沒有到這個需求量，我們是有這樣的空間，但是我們也歡迎……"],["柯委員志恩：有啊，你們也會……"],["吳主任委員誠文：夠資格的廠商多吸引國外回來的人才。"],["柯委員志恩：是啦！但是我只是告訴你這個數據，基本上本席有很多學生在這個環境裡面，在南部，的確雙語老師的招募還有各方面跟竹科相比還是有一段距離。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我只是提醒主委不要忽略高雄實驗中學的籌備，還有它資源的分配，現在南科占了七成多，未來請你多分一點，能夠讓它面面俱到，這個部分才是本席要再次提醒的，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：預算方面沒有問題，所有園區的實驗中學都會一視同仁，謝謝委員。"],["柯委員志恩：好，數據還是一樣，但是你霸凌的問題請在一個禮拜交出報告給本席，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["柯委員志恩：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，主委請回。","接下來有請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157569","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157569","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec2579663a952aef5b4ade49c25d3d95b2a46981bbcaec0eacdae93a71a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:09:49 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的總預算多少?"},{"start":149.974,"end":159.662,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":178.624,"end":192.865,"text":"你明年的總預算一千六百多億然後你明年卓榮泰院長民進黨政府對於工商請先聽完本席的問題可以嗎不要急"},{"start":194.059,"end":196.883,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":209.343,"end":224.064,"text":"第1、卓榮泰院長念茲再茲強調合龍合所有的工商協競會早餐會都喊話希望合律共存擔心台灣缺電這也是全民所擔心的啊能源是選擇沒有對錯"},{"start":226.067,"end":242.681,"text":"你要用火力發電、核能發電、水力發電、再生能源本期之前就講過了我們支持的是再生能源持續發展我們支持的是減碳我們支持的是能夠讓台灣走向淨零碳排所以嘛你明年的預算1600多億 對不對"},{"start":246.872,"end":250.615,"text":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":265.879,"end":267.32,"text":"到底投入多少經費、多少人員、多少計劃的態度?主委,你覺得夠嗎?"},{"start":289.912,"end":295.513,"text":"只要有學者願意投入我們可以增加這是沒有問題的。外界你有接受日本媒體訪問的時候有講到說未來3年每年會編列10億元美金來強化主權的AI那你甚至有講到是說"},{"start":318.579,"end":339.43,"text":"當台灣預期會面對川普新任美國總統的施壓分享更多先進的技術的時候你的回答是這樣的策略符合川普的期望我想請教一下符合川普的期望是台灣利益跟先進技術有可能會被犧牲嗎?不會犧牲那如果說川普先聽完本節目問題好了"},{"start":340.646,"end":355.803,"text":"主委我覺得你本席本來是很期待你但是過去這段時間真的我覺得所有的我們相關的同仁都看到你展現出一點科學人的務實的精神好不好這是本席給你很大的一個期許"},{"start":357.833,"end":382.61,"text":"如果我們現在有強調我們先進的製程落後一代也就是N-1的原則就希望說台灣保有最先進的國外相對來講比較往後一代的這樣的一個原則但如果說未來川普的期待是要打破這樣的原則你覺得我們有辦法堅持嗎我們有辦法堅持來理由是什麼那你如果好好聽我講台灣的"},{"start":385.879,"end":388.86,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":401.545,"end":403.067,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":416.607,"end":433.143,"text":"對全世界都是有利的好,非常好本席讓你完整表達記住這一句話未來我們來檢驗不過既然如此我想賴政府2025年投入AI行動計畫2.0再加上精創台灣方案總共289億元將近300億元那是不是AI是顯學"},{"start":439.048,"end":464.166,"text":"現在各行各業或各部門都要做AI沒有錯好那主委我想AI有沒有應該就是不要碟床架屋而是有一個綜合的規劃來去推動報告委員因為核心AI技術的研究那當然就是在AI計畫裡面但是它的應用是非常多樣性的一定要結合各種應用的推動計畫共同合作"},{"start":466.087,"end":495.527,"text":"但是有沒有一個主體性是可以來讓各部會去了解說到底怎麼樣運用AI的技術而不是大家如蝦子摸象一樣各自摸索有,我們編列的預算包含在數位發展部在政府推動的部分所以數位發展部可能是一個起頭是不是它是一個起頭好,來主委我特別會提這一點就是因為我們現在看到各部會都有一些亂象就明年很多的預算只要掛上AI兩個字好像它就變成是說它"},{"start":496.888,"end":506.194,"text":"有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":522.566,"end":538.13,"text":"還是數位部有指使勞動部要去做AI智能方案因為到最後我們看到說勞動部自己部本部也沒有做還是分屬他們自己去執行或者是我們現在看到公廣集團要砸3000萬做AI"},{"start":540.714,"end":542.257,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委"},{"start":553.442,"end":557.105,"text":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委第11屆第2會期教育及技術委"},{"start":575.803,"end":603.123,"text":"主委發展部也好或是我們國科會也好照理講都應該要有一個上位的計畫目標跟方案讓所有部門能夠往這樣的方向邁進而不是你只是美其名所有計畫編一個AI多加AI兩個字你就變成是好像完全不同但是其實換湯不換藥我們編列科技預算當然是協助各部會來執行這些我們以後會多協助他們"},{"start":605.672,"end":629.059,"text":"主委本期還是強調要做就務實的做科學人我們就用科學人角度跟你溝通如果說你要用政治語言的話那我們就會用政治語言來跟你溝通這一點真的請我們的主委好好的放在心裡面以及當我們所有同仁的表率謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝洪孟凱委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":30,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時9分）主席謝謝，麻煩請吳主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天召委有交代一定要準時發言，所以我請吳主委也針對問題回答問題，不要顧左右而言他，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，工商協進會前天的工商早餐會，我想這也是國內大家所關心的重點，其中強調一個部分就是希望能夠核綠共存，甚至他們講說，有九成的會員擔心核電歸零之後缺電，超過八成同意核電延役，主委，你有看到這個新聞嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有稍微瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：這有什麼好不能回答的，難言之隱是什麼意思。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有難言之隱。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有難言之隱，好，那就請針對問題回答問題好不好？主委，現在卓院長或民進黨政府針對核能議題強調三個前提，其中一個前提叫做新核能，但新核能的部分不要只是淪為畫大餅的口號，我們想要知道到底新核能是國家認為缺電議題真的很重要、能源議題真的很重要，我們真的有投入相關經費在研究，還是只是以拖待變，想要畫大餅給工商界的朋友一個虛無縹緲的幻想？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會在各種潔淨能源的研究一直都是持開放的角度，目前學界的確是有計畫在進行當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席有看到相關預算，你到底編列多少預算或多少計畫在做所謂的新核能研究開發？還是至少跟國外接軌，也許我們沒有辦法獨立完成新核能的研發，但是至少跟國外接軌，你明年的計畫在哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的核能研究編列在自然處、工程處相關的計畫裡面，我們開放給學界……"],["洪委員孟楷：編列多少費用？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們編列的這個預算，整體的核融合研究大概有4,500萬元。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的總預算多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：總預算是開放的，也就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，我說明年你的總預算，兩分鐘前你才報告完，明年的總預算多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：明年的總預算，科技預算1,466億。"],["洪委員孟楷：1,466億，然後你再講核融合的預算總共放了多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是提出來的研究。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啦，你針對問題回答問題，我已經講了召委今天嚴格控管時間，所以我要求你針對問題回答問題。你明年的總預算一千六百多億，然後明年卓榮泰院長、民進黨政府，對於工商……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：請先聽完本席的問題可以嗎？不要急、不要意識形態……"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有意識型態。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要覺得好像現在遇到什麼問題，就急著辯駁、急著辯解，這不是科學人的態度。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是辯駁，是希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：我再問一次，清楚明白聽到我的問題。第一，卓榮泰院長念茲在茲強調核融合，所有工商協進會的早餐會都喊話，希望核綠共存、擔心臺灣缺電，這也是全民所擔心的，能源是選擇沒有對錯，你要用火力發電、核能發電、水力發電、再生能源，本席之前就講過，我們支持的是再生能源持續發展、我們支持的是減碳、我們支持的是能夠讓臺灣走向淨零碳排，所以你明年的預算一千六百多億，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有，1,595億元。"],["洪委員孟楷：1,595億元，那你明年核融合的計畫預計研究投入多少錢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前編列4,500萬元，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：比例是多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為必須要有……"],["洪委員孟楷：比例是多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：比例我必須要算，這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：算不出來嘛！因為可能零點零幾。"],["吳主任委員誠文：你要給我時間算吶！"],["洪委員孟楷：零點零幾嘛！所以這就是民進黨政府對待外界期待的新核能到底投入多少經費？多少人員？多少計畫？的態度。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，如果編很多預算沒有人執行，是沒有用的。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你覺得夠嗎？你覺得這樣有展現出民進黨政府……"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要有需求，只要我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你覺得4,500萬是符合需求嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要有學者願意投入，我們可以增加，這是沒有問題的。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，再來，你接受日本媒體訪問的時候，有講到未來3年會每年編列10億元美金來強化主權的AI，你甚至有講到，當臺灣預期會面對川普新任美國總統的施壓及分享更多先進技術的時候，你的回答是，這樣的策略符合川普的期望。我想請教符合川普的期望，是臺灣利益跟先進技術有可能會被犧牲嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會犧牲，臺灣……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說川普……先聽完本席的問題好不好？主委，本席本來是很期待你，但是過去這段時間我覺得所有相關同仁都看到，你展現出一點科學人務實的精神好不好？這是本席給你很大的一個期許。","如果現在我們有強調先進的製程落後一代，也就是「N減1」原則，希望臺灣保有最先進的，國外相對來講比較往後一代的原則，但如果未來川普的期待是要打破這樣的原則，你覺得我們有辦法堅持嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有辦法堅持。"],["洪委員孟楷：那理由是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你如果好好聽我講，臺灣的先進半導體製造的技術現在是領先全球，原因是因為我們有非常好的推動環境，我們科學園區的建置、產官學的合作是國外沒有辦法找到的，所以先進製程技術的研究如果不留在臺灣，移到全世界任何地方都不可能比臺灣還更有效率，所以臺灣能夠把先進製造技術往前推動，對全世界都是有利的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，非常好，本席讓你完整表達，記住這句話，未來我們來檢驗。既然如此，我想賴政府2025年投入AI行動計畫2.0，再加上晶創台灣方案，總共289億元，將近300億元，AI是不是顯學，現在各行各業或各部門都要做AI？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，主委，我想AI是不是不要疊床架屋，而是有一個綜合規劃去推動？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，因為核心AI技術的研究，那當然就是在AI計畫裡面，但是它的應用是非常多樣性的，一定要結合各種應用的、推動的計畫共同合作。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是有沒有一個主體性是可以讓各部會去瞭解到底怎麼樣運用AI的技術，而不是讓大家如瞎子摸象各自摸索？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們編列的預算包含在數位發展部，在政府推動的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以數位發展部可能是一個起頭，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：它是一個起頭。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，主委，我特別提這一點是因為我們現在看到各部會都有一些亂象，就是明年很多的預算只要掛上「AI」兩個字，好像變成是它要來推動，但實際上它做的內容可能不一定那麼的AI，譬如前些日子勞動部逼死一個公務同仁，就是因為它掛了一個所謂AI的智能勞動方案，結果反而被人家講說原來它是自創AI專案，而產生了一件憾事，數發部知道勞動部要推動這個AI智能方案嗎？還是數發部有指使勞動部要去做這樣的AI智能方案？因為到最後我們看到勞動部自己部本部也沒有做，反而是分署自己去執行；或是現在看到公廣集團要砸3,000萬做AI，文化部還講說這一定會謹慎，後來我們在一樣的位子詢問公廣的董事長，他講說他是要精進數位轉型，我說數位轉型很好，可是你不要為了喝一瓶牛奶養一頭牛，你為了要做數位轉型，自己去外面開一個AI公司，掛「AI」兩個字就要開公司，開完公司後只是推動公廣集團數位轉型，我想請教過去10年、20年數位進步來講，我們公司難道沒有轉型嗎？有，有轉型啊！所以主委，你剛剛也講了，數位發展部也好，國科會也好，照理講都應該要有一個上位的計畫、目標跟方案，讓所有部門能夠往這樣的方向邁進，而不是你只是美其名所有計畫編一個AI，多加「AI」兩個字，就變成好像完全不同，那其實是換湯不換藥。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們編的科技預算當然是協助各部會來執行，我們以後會多協助他們。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席還是強調，要做就務實的做，科學人我們就用科學人的角度跟你溝通，如果說你要用政治語言的話……"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是政治。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們就會用政治語言來跟你溝通……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會協同數位發展部。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一點真的請主委好好的放在心裡面，以及當我們所有同仁的表率，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來有請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-10","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","陳秀寳","張雅琳","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":241,"meetingDate":["2024-11-28"],"gazette_id":"11310803","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310803_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、審查\n114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預\n算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案；五、審查114年度行政法人國家\n太空中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310803_00002"}}},{"id":"157564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9b765842ec257966c734dfc1db43503ba85017ab97aa926fbbcaec0eacdae93a5347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:08:31 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是"},{"start":98.038,"end":120.663,"text":"會有這樣的影響到彼此競爭或是有獨佔市場的狀態然後造成彼此在我們有幾樣員工的問題或是在後續競爭狀態然後所有消費者的權益甚至商家的權益這些嗎都會有請他們一起說明嗎因為我們在這之前所針對的這幾個重點大家認為有疑慮的"},{"start":124.884,"end":150.592,"text":"有請他們說明嗎?有說明進來了嗎?那說明進來了,那我要請問一下那奇怪了,你們也有開公聽會吧?有開幾場座談會,針對所有這些我們的業者還有員工,是嗎?業者員工那我要請教一下主委,主委我們有那麼吝嗇"},{"start":152.557,"end":181.211,"text":"我們開公平會就只有開那四場為什麼就開那幾場我們的座談會在北中南東都有開那除了這個座談會之外整個外送平台的併觀是不是很嚴重大家是不是矚目的焦點影響非常非常大是不是我要收集更多的資訊data也就是讓業者外送員消費者"},{"start":182.071,"end":206.747,"text":"他們可以充分表達是不是應該這樣子因為我們當時候一直強調的是你如何保障三方的權益嘛外送員消費者餐飲業者所以這三個重要的一個區塊你要讓他們充分表達可是你們的公聽會座談會就是辦了四場高雄一場台中一場宜蘭一場台北一場"},{"start":207.808,"end":209.369,"text":"臺中然後高雄然後你東部也才宜蘭那我台東跟花蓮要去的我要去宜蘭"},{"start":228.143,"end":230.784,"text":"請問問卷現在回收率多少?你們發了幾份出去?我們在這個網路上有意見徵詢目前有600多個意見進來"},{"start":247.553,"end":275.365,"text":"網路那總共包括外送員、餐飲業者有跟Uber有跟那個Foodpanda合作的業者還有消費者這全部有多少人?你現在才600多個啊那你有去了解全國有多少嗎?是全省回來的意見600多個全國意見有600多份嘛那我要問你全國總共外送員、餐飲業者、消費者總共"},{"start":276.431,"end":276.611,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":294.062,"end":294.342,"text":"委員會主管委員會"},{"start":311.533,"end":336.567,"text":"外送員佔了多少?餐飲業者佔了多少?消費者佔了多少?這部分我們有分析有嗎?分析多少?這600多份外送員多少?大部分的意見外送員有500多份500多份有外送員那餐飲業者呢?還有其他的包括這個其他的利害關係的人除了外送員以外還有其他那我就單指這個外送員外送員你知道現在"},{"start":338.018,"end":340.9,"text":"外送公會現在的回應是怎麼樣你們整個外送公會現在全國的外送公會有幾個"},{"start":360.417,"end":386.745,"text":"這個各地的外送工會有幾個?有相當多啦有多少嗎?你有去了解嗎?你既然主委你要跟我講說你還有針對工會那你就要非常清楚說那我們全國的工會有幾個?全國一個各縣市幾個?你要去了解啊你都沒有這些資訊你跟我講說有啦我有問這個我有問那個阿結果咧?我這樣一問你的Data資料給我嗎?"},{"start":388.038,"end":416.425,"text":"你的工會外送工會你說的嘛這都是你說的我都順你的話說喔主委我沒有假的跟你說一句話鹹的說一句話喔這都是我順你的話說的在臺北廠就有60幾個工協會來參加那各地的這個工協會呃 詳細的數字我手上沒有掌握但是就臺北來看齁就有60幾家的工會來參加主委你不要跟我一樣在這邊一直在繞嘛"},{"start":418.671,"end":443.469,"text":"你今天我已經跟你說現在座談會跟公平會市場夠不夠我認為不夠既然這麼大的爭議你為什麼不六都都辦你為什麼不六都都辦然後東部在花東也辦一場你在宜蘭耶花東要到宜蘭好那你跟我講說有啦我們網路也有結果被我疑問"},{"start":446.617,"end":460.206,"text":"14萬的外送員才回來500多份的問卷你說我還有針對工會 工會也有哥哥 我問你工會有多少 你也說不出來 你說有啦在台北的時候有很多工會 有60幾個工會有參加你又把我回鍋到整個公聽會的制度裡面"},{"start":467.637,"end":467.977,"text":"發言委員：陳亭妃"},{"start":491.584,"end":514.905,"text":"就這樣嗎就這樣嗎你知道外送員的聲音餐飲業者的聲音消費者的聲音我如果這樣一問你們根本都沒有辦法掌控他們的聲音其實我們在很多場的公聽會還有立法院委員組織的公聽會我們都有去了解而且都有掌握所以那你為什麼所以嘛那你的意思就是說安這也沒辦法"},{"start":516.326,"end":538.231,"text":"也不用辦公聽會嗎?也不用辦座談會嗎?因為我只要從立委的手上、立委的嘴中、然後所有的一些相關的單位講就可以了嗎?我跟妳說,我們要做就要做到腳紋啦!不要應付啦!要做要做到腳紋啦!今天外送平台的併購案,妳也知道"},{"start":539.805,"end":556.867,"text":"聲音很大你是不是應該把它做得更仔細為什麼我們吝嗇去辦這些公聽會我們辦了讓他們來說他們不願意那麼我們沒有話講可是你今天為什麼六都不辦"},{"start":558.544,"end":558.564,"text":"委員長"},{"start":584.935,"end":585.215,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":603.482,"end":603.522,"text":"是。 是。"},{"start":618.892,"end":644.581,"text":"對阿可是我的意思是說在你審查過程這個這麼重要的你如何讓這三方外送員消費者還有餐飲業者充分表達他們的意見那麼就會成為你們準博非常重要的意見依據這才是重要啦主委不要等閒視之這告謝主長處理不好事我告訴你會炸鍋謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":111,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時8分）謝謝主席。我們請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委早。我想現在公平會最重要的一件事，就是外送平臺併購案，大家都非常關注這個問題。你們有要求外送平臺併購案業者要在11月8日備齊所有文件送進來，現在他們的資料備齊了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：現在文件已經備齊，在11月8日備齊了。"],["陳委員亭妃：針對你們所要求的幾樣都送進來了嗎？你們有要求他們要做一些解釋，也就是未來就水平結合、限制競爭的整個狀況做考量，看是不是會影響到後續的競爭壓力或獨占市場的狀態？有要求他們做分析評估？"],["李主任委員鎂：是的，為了審慎、審酌這個結合案件，有關結合當事人必須要做的說明並備齊必要的文件，我們當然……"],["陳委員亭妃：是哪些必要文件？你們所說的必要文件是哪些必要文件？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是結合所產生的綜效對利害關係人的影響等等，請他們說明。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，就是這些解釋，即如果合併之後是不是會有外界所疑慮的，影響到彼此的競爭或有獨占市場的狀態，造成彼此員工的問題甚或後續的競爭狀態，進而影響所有消費者的權益，甚至商家的權益，這些嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：都會請他們一起說明。"],["陳委員亭妃：都有請他們說明嗎？在這之前針對這幾個大家認為有疑慮的重點，都有請他們說明嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，有請他們說明……"],["陳委員亭妃：說明進來了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：既然說明進來了，那我要請問一下。奇怪了！你們也有開公聽會吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：有開過幾場座談會。"],["陳委員亭妃：座談會？針對所有相關的業者、員工，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：業者、員工？我要請教一下主委，我們有那麼吝嗇，開公聽會就只開那四場？為什麼就開那幾場？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在北、中、南、東都有開座談會，除了座談之外，也有……"],["陳委員亭妃：外送平臺併購案是不是很嚴重？是不是大家矚目的焦點？"],["李主任委員鎂：影響非常、非常大。"],["陳委員亭妃：非常大，是不是？所以是不是要蒐集更多資訊、data？也就是讓業者、外送員、消費者可以充分表達意見？是不是應該這樣子？我們當初一直強調的是，如何保障三方的權益─外送員、消費者、餐飲業者……"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這三個重要區塊，你要讓他們充分表達意見，可是你們的公聽會、座談會就只辦了四場！高雄一場，臺中一場，宜蘭一場，臺北一場，這麼重大且受矚目的案件，你們有那麼吝嗇就只辦四場？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：你讓其他要參加的人奔波，可能要去臺北、臺中或高雄，而且東部才宜蘭一場，臺東與花蓮要參加的只能到宜蘭！"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們除了座談以外，還做了問卷，也請各相關利害關係人提供書面說明……"],["陳委員亭妃：問卷？"],["李主任委員鎂：有多重的管道……"],["陳委員亭妃：請問問卷回收率多少？你們發了幾份出去？問卷你們發了幾份出去？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在網路上有意見徵詢，目前有六百多則意見進來。"],["陳委員亭妃：那是網路，總共、包括外送員、有跟Uber Eats、foodpanda合作的餐飲業者、還有消費者，這全部有多少人？你現在才六百多個啊，那你有去了解全國有多少嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是全省回來的意見六百多個。"],["陳委員亭妃：全國意見有六百多份嘛，那我要問你全國的外送員、餐飲業者、消費者總共有多少？因為你認為六百多個就很多了嘛，那我現在問你啊，你有沒有去了解，總共外送員有多少？餐飲業者有多少？消費者有多少？那六百多份很多嗎？消費者我看幾乎……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們問的不只是這麼多人，是說回來，回復意見的有六百多則。"],["陳委員亭妃：但六百份回來就很多嗎？依照這個比例是非常少耶，依照外送員的比例，餐飲業者的比例，消費者的比例，這是非常少耶，那你有去細分這些回來的問卷，外送員占了多少？餐飲業者占了多少？消費者占了多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：這部分我們有分析。"],["陳委員亭妃：有嗎？分析多少？這六百多份中，外送員是多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：大部分的意見是外送員啦，有五百多份，另外有……"],["陳委員亭妃：五百多份是外送員，那餐飲業者呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：還有其他的人，包括其他的利害關係人，除了外送員以外，還有其他……"],["陳委員亭妃：那我就單指這個外送員，外送員，你知道現在Uber Eats、foodpanda他們的外送員總共有多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的了解有十四萬多，全部的外送員。"],["陳委員亭妃：十四萬多，然後才五百多份回來？這比例……"],["李主任委員鎂：其實我們還有問外送工會，以及在各地的座談會當中，都有請外送工會……"],["陳委員亭妃：外送工會現在的回應是怎麼樣？你們整個外送工會，現在全國的外送工會有幾個？各地的外送工會有幾個？"],["李主任委員鎂：有相當多啦，就是……"],["陳委員亭妃：有多少嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：大大小小的外送工會……"],["陳委員亭妃：你要去了解嘛，主委，既然你要跟我講說你還有針對工會，那你就要非常清楚說明全國的工會有幾個，全國一個，各縣市幾個？你要去了解啊！你都沒有這些資訊，結果你跟我講說「有啦，我有問這個、我有問那個」，結果呢？我這樣一問，你的data資料就要給我嘛，外送工會是你說的嘛，這都是你說的，我都順著你的話講喔，主委，我沒有多跟你講一句話、少講一句話喔，這都是我順著你的話講的。"],["李主任委員鎂：在臺北場就有六十幾個工協會來參加，各地的工協會，詳細的數字我手上沒有掌握，但是就臺北來看就有六十幾家的工會來參與。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，你不要跟我在這邊一直在繞嘛，今天我已經跟你說，現在座談會跟公聽會四場，夠不夠？我認為不夠！既然是這麼大的爭議，你為什麼不六都都辦？你為什麼不六都都辦？然後東部在花東也辦一場，但你們是在宜蘭耶，花東必須要到宜蘭來參加。","好，你跟我講說「有啦，我們網路也有」，結果被我一問，十四萬多個外送員，才回來五百多份的問卷。你說你還有針對工會，工會也有徵詢，結果我問你工會有多少個，你也講不出來！你說「有啦，在臺北的時候有很多工會參加，有六十幾個工會參加」，你又把我回鍋到整個公聽會的制度裡面，所以你根本就沒有落實嘛！如果你們只是想要應付性的去處理這個嚴重性且茲事體大的案子，這個併購案是非常嚴重的，你們不能等閒視之，用你們過去的SOP，你們要用加強版啦。"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：但現在你好像認為，今天公聽會你們已經有辦了，問卷也發了，就這樣嗎？就這樣嗎？你知道外送員的聲音、餐飲業者的聲音、消費者的聲音是什麼嗎？我如果這樣一問，你們根本都沒有辦法掌控。"],["李主任委員鎂：他們的聲音，其實我們在很多場的公聽會，還有立法院委員主持的公聽會，我們都有去了解，而且都有掌握，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：那你為什麼？所以嘛，你的意思就是說，這樣你們其實也可以不用辦，也不用辦公聽會嗎？也不用辦座談會嗎？因為你只要從立委的手上、立委的嘴中去知道，然後所有的一些相關單位講講就可以了，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不是、不是，各界的意見我們都會去聽……"],["陳委員亭妃：我跟你說啦，既然你們要做就做得仔細一點，不要應付啦，要做就要做得很仔細啦，今天外送平臺的併購案，你也知道聲音很大……"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：你是不是應該把它做得更仔細，為什麼我們吝嗇去辦這些公聽會？我們辦了，讓他們來說，他們不願意，那麼我們沒有話講，可是你今天為什麼六都不辦，你就這樣子做，北、中、南、東各選一場，這是過去的作法，可是這個外送平臺併購案問題非常的嚴重，可是你今天網路也是這樣子做，聲音就是那麼一小批人。"],["李主任委員鎂：我跟委員報告一下，這個結合文件齊備之後，就有一個審查期間，這個審查期間沒有做出決定的話，結合它就可以去進行了，所以我們一方面要兼顧審查的期間，一方面要兼顧公共意見的徵詢，這一次這個案子，從5月我們收件到現在，我們就一直在……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們的期間是30個工作天嘛，11月8號文件備齊之後，依法是30個工作天嘛，也就是說，今年12月19號你就要准駁嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：那現在已經11月底了喔。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們現在進入審查的程序，因為文件都齊備。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊，你已經進入審查，我知道你進入審查……"],["李主任委員鎂：所以在文件齊備之前，我們就已經開過公聽會。"],["陳委員亭妃：審查有30個工作天啊，在今年12月19號以前要准駁啊，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果沒有的話，可以再延長60天啊，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，可是我的意思是說，在你的審查過程中，這個這麼重要的程序，你如何讓這三方──外送員、消費者，還有餐飲業者充分表達他們的意見，這個就會成為你們准駁非常重要的意見依據，這才是重要啦，主委，不要等閒視之，這件事如果到時候沒有處理得宜，我告訴你，會炸鍋啦！謝謝。"],["主席：請林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-18","speakers":["呂玉玲","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏"},{"start":2111.118,"end":2127.125,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":2127.125,"end":2145.502,"text":"他就跟其他的相關產業一樣都必須從長時間的陪助絕對不是一蹴可擊的那麼在這樣的過程當中即使運動員被扶植出來之後幕後有許多重要的團隊包括勤搜包括教練團包括訓練員甚至於醫療飲食都是要完全配套的"},{"start":2152.087,"end":2173.641,"text":"讓體育署能夠完全的成為一個獨立的體育部對於整體的運動發展當然就佔有非常重要的部分是除了政策擬定之外政策的擬定更需要的是要後面有經費的支持所以這一次能夠透過我們運動部的組織法的提案修正能夠讓"},{"start":2175.382,"end":2176.623,"text":"（一、繼續併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":2193.001,"end":2196.443,"text":"我希望也透過這一次的修法全面的來支持釋放他們的潛能在全球新興運動產業發展的初期台灣就能拔得頭籌搶得機先再次回到這一次的十二強世界棒球賽我們奪冠的過程"},{"start":2216.215,"end":2229.62,"text":"其實棒球過去一直以來是我們的國球我們也花了非常強大的時間跟心力在做培植以及他們的脫胎換骨同樣的本席也希望透過這一次運動部的組織法的修正許多的新興運動正在崛起當中也透過這一次能夠有獨立的機關獨立的預算背後能夠給這些運動員更多的扶植而運動員就像我們看到的"},{"start":2244.305,"end":2265.711,"text":"過去光彩奪目站在前排的運動員在他們退役之後能夠成為強大的教練團而這個部分也唯有透過一個獨立的機關才能夠讓整個運動不只是單一我們看到現在的明星如果沒有團隊就沒有明星我相信這是一個最好的時機謝謝"},{"start":2268.864,"end":2284.808,"text":"謝謝林儲英委員,我們今天新增了很多新加入的提案委員,大家一起來為聽台灣,台灣No.1,來聽我們的台灣英雄用運動部的推動來促成。那接下來我們請提案委員張委員雅琳進行提案說明。OK"},{"start":2295.545,"end":2316.404,"text":"謝謝主席。我想這次的十二強我們打進了冠軍賽,而且我們拿到了世界冠軍。我想是全國人民都非常開心的一件事情,而且甚至有非常多的老球迷們。像是我自己願意明年賽事開打之後我要重回球場去看我要支持的球隊。"},{"start":2317.826,"end":2338.141,"text":"我覺得這是一個非常重要的契機因為我要必須再次強調一次並不是每一個現在在練習在體育班上在這體育班鍛煉的選手都有機會站上這個舞台很多時候我們體育班的孩子可能只能成就一個到兩個很多的人他們都說他們自己只是個陪練員"},{"start":2339.882,"end":2354.609,"text":"甚至很多人之所以陪練是因為他過度訓練或是他被霸凌或是他遭受了很多不公平或是甚至是性侵等等非常悲慘的遭遇導致他真正斷送了他自己的選手的生命。"},{"start":2355.649,"end":2370.435,"text":"所以我希望我們應該要積極的來去調整我們現在的一個投資不僅是人才的投資之外我們相關的運動科學訓練在這一次的十二強從勤收到後勤"},{"start":2371.095,"end":2396.758,"text":"都提供了我們所有的棒球選手最好的資源而這些資源應該要回到基層去去照顧我們每一個目前已經在體育班的孩子同時我們也要建立相關的一個監督機制在協會端、在體育班內、在學校內怎樣的去協助我們每一個孩子當他追求他的運動夢的時候他可以真正的去實現讓我們這次在十二強拿得冠軍這件事情"},{"start":2397.759,"end":2410.852,"text":"這是一個彈劃一線的事實而是它可以世世代代一直持續的發展下去那同時我們也必須去面對一個更殘酷的事實是少子化其實雖然我們現在非常開心"},{"start":2412.714,"end":2440.053,"text":"但是我們的棒球選手其實是非常少的是越來越少的那其中還有一個問題是我們的棒球選手小選手們我曾經有一個選手他告訴我他大概是五年級他告訴我說其實我真的非常喜歡棒球可是我只要去公園玩那個投接球練習的時候他就會被驅趕他就會被人家指責說公園裡面不能夠玩投接球所以我們現在這些場地的建置也是非常重要的"},{"start":2440.914,"end":2467.83,"text":"以及我們相關的新興場地的運動目前也都還有這個運動場地不足的問題所以當我們這次有了這個運動部之後我希望就是針對這幾個面向可以來去強化讓我們所有的孩子們不管是孩子們或是我們講的適應運動的運動員們甚至我們的長輩們全齡的使用者都可以找到他可以發展的機會但最後一件事情就是說我們現在的"},{"start":2468.951,"end":2486.971,"text":"謝謝。"},{"start":2488.007,"end":2488.407,"text":"主席、各位同仁"},{"start":2517.961,"end":2544.989,"text":"我想剛才幾位委員在提案說明中大家開宗明義都先提到這一次在這個世界十二強的棒球賽臺灣能夠拿下創下歷史的這個新業然後拿下這個冠軍這個在這個過程中我們除了看到我們這個臺灣年輕選手的這些優異表現之外也讓國人更加體會這個體育"},{"start":2549.288,"end":2564.955,"text":"運動這些經濟賽事除了運動員本身他其他他所必須整合的諸多的相關其他跨領域的資源這樣子的必須要整合這些包括運動科技包括這些勤收包括相關的後勤作業"},{"start":2566.431,"end":2567.151,"text":"主席"},{"start":2586.547,"end":2611.761,"text":"能夠讓大家更加體會我們現在將我們的政府現在計畫將這個運動部獨立成部這個的重要性跟現在這個在這個時機上面我認為這個希望說能夠獲得草野各政黨大家一致的支持在這個全國的這個這個凝聚這樣子全部果仁的共識"},{"start":2613.886,"end":2636.691,"text":"為了推動落實我剛剛所講的這些運動發展政策藉由專責還有這個專業能量的機關整體來規劃整合這個相關的運動相關資源而且透過提倡全民運動來增加這個一方面增進國民的健康一方面厚植這個這個國內各運動項目的基底"},{"start":2637.944,"end":2653.288,"text":"我認為這個以及未來強化這個選手培育以及保障促進這個經濟專業的發展推動這個產業促進幸福經濟等等相關的這些工作都希望說今天能夠在我們的這個這個運動部"},{"start":2656.72,"end":2676.059,"text":"運動部的這個組織法裡面的審查希望能夠順利以符合這個國人的期待另外為了配合行政院政策運動部再來將原本一部分由教育部體育署所辦理的這些運動的教育、全民運動、競技運動、運動產業、國際兩岸運動還有運動設施政策規劃"},{"start":2680.964,"end":2682.725,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員接下來請提案人沈委員培育進行提案說明"},{"start":2711.931,"end":2712.031,"text":"身心障礙運動"},{"start":2734.449,"end":2752.325,"text":"過去一般的國人對於身心障礙的運動都侷限在帕拉運動那確實我們台灣在這數十年當中也有非常多相對多的資源是挹注在這個部分的但是如果我們不要只有把身心障礙運動放在所謂競技層面而是所有身心障礙者"},{"start":2753.827,"end":2764.476,"text":"從0歲到99歲他們都必須要有運動的需求而國家在運動部升格之後必須要照顧到他們的運動需求因此呢我們調整院版的帕拉運動文字為身心障礙運動那在過去的會期當中我們其實也積極召開適應體育的座談會有非常多專家學者告訴我們"},{"start":2773.744,"end":2790.756,"text":"不能只有帕拉運動去想像某一種競技的樣態而是必須照顧到全民的需求因為每一個人在一輩子當中都很有可能成為身心障礙者的候選人這件事情是在非常多座談會上有很多老師再度再度提醒我們的第二個我們在"},{"start":2791.917,"end":2791.957,"text":"《運動博物館》"},{"start":2809.292,"end":2817.637,"text":"非常難對台灣人所知道那他可能只有公部門的預算去處理的這部分的業務但實質上我們如何透過運動文物的保存讓全台灣的人對於運動是自己生活的一部分這件事情可以建立某種認知因此我們明文把運動博物館納入運動部的業務我們不希望跟現行的運動文化記憶保存的方法又再次的重疊"},{"start":2834.426,"end":2851.491,"text":"那在周思齊引退的時候其實他也提到類似的事情那接下來我們提到全國性運動團體我們也認為要進一步釐清目前在講到所有資源或是競賽分配的時候大家都著重在特定體育團體但我們認為未來走入成全民運動俱樂部的概念我們更應該把這個運動團體的定義釐清那接下來呢我們談到一個很重要的事情"},{"start":2856.813,"end":2872.16,"text":"目前體育署很重要的業務在於競技運動的部分那我們當然認為競技運動是重要的可是我們更希望運動走向現代化、文明化、形塑全民運動文化這件事情所以我們把競技運動全民化調整為運動發展現代化、形塑全民運動文化這件事情我認為是相對重要接下來談到體育班的歸屬還有適應體育的分工"},{"start":2880.703,"end":2896.728,"text":"未來教育部跟運動部要如何分工學齡階段或者是學齡後還有學齡前我認為體育班跟適應體育的問題是在這一次修法的時候我們大家要共同面對可能要花很多時間討論但是卻是一個不得不去談的很重要的議題以上謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝我們接下來請提案人王委員正去進行提案說明"},{"start":2915.224,"end":2930.277,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早。我們知道這一次的運動比賽像棒球得到全國甚至全世界的矚目讓台灣真的是被看到"},{"start":2930.897,"end":2959.486,"text":"我本身是一個臨床醫師所以對於運動如何能夠變成健康的一部分非常非常的重視他有建立聯合國教育科學與文化組織在2015年的11月18日在第38屆的大會修正通過相關的憲章裡面就開宗明義告訴我們說體育身體活動及競技運動的實踐是人類的基本權利所以"},{"start":2960.186,"end":2975.413,"text":"人人都應該享有運動的機會與權利當然也希望透過運動來促進健康這是全國國民該有的享受的權利所以我們希望促進全民的運動落實台灣健康"},{"start":2975.913,"end":2997.466,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":2998.75,"end":3007.235,"text":"繼由體育運動壯大臺灣的願景。那這些內容相信透過我們這個運動部的成立就能夠有達到這個願景的機會。以上。"},{"start":3028.442,"end":3044.962,"text":"我想這幾天相信許多國人都跟我一樣對於能夠在國際賽事當中拿下冠軍內心都感到非常興奮並且也為選手們的表現感動這同時也激勵我們大家是不是應該重新去檢視國內的運動環境跟政策資源的問題"},{"start":3048.226,"end":3076.68,"text":"那除了我們的競技型的運動的推廣協助體育選手獲得國際賽事的佳績外回到一般民眾在日常運動習慣的養成則涉及到我們如何推廣全民運動培養興趣我們的生根運動文化甚至是在我最關心的兒少方面運動文化的扎根推廣也包含了如何提供兒少適當的休閒場域跟空間這些都是我未來期待我們的"},{"start":3077.841,"end":3087.517,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3087.719,"end":3088.059,"text":"議員提到冰島模式．"},{"start":3118.66,"end":3143.877,"text":"他們針對於親子互動不佳、青少年沒有適當的休閒場域導致的高酗酒跟吸毒的毒品問題然後反而是提供很多的休閒或的運動場域讓他們的犯罪問題下降了50%所以過去我也鼓勵說我們是不是應該新設增設新的運動的休閒空間像游泳池"},{"start":3144.377,"end":3147.32,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":3162.097,"end":3186.997,"text":"此外,在臨近的日本,我們也可以看到隨著社經地位結構的改變,他們也因為學校的場域的社團的運作比較困難之後,他們為了持續維持我們的運動文化推廣、紮根與運動習慣的養成,所以把學校的社團的活動逐步的移植到社區的改革方案。"},{"start":3187.998,"end":3212.669,"text":"所以未來我們也期待參考冰島或日本的這樣的一個方式。未來我覺得部會能夠特別去重視社區俱樂部的推動,因為社區就是全民運動發展的核心,也希望透過社團或者俱樂部的形成由下而上讓我們的競技運動全民化,從兒少到成年甚至引髮族社區運動的蓬勃發展,也能夠回頭帶動周邊的裁判運動產業的人才的養成。謝謝大家。"},{"start":3217.637,"end":3230.805,"text":"好,在場提案委員均以說明。那麼在進行討論前,先針對本次會議所列議案中,尚未宣讀之提案條文進行宣讀。宣讀時間預計15分鐘。如有修正動議議請一併宣讀。宣讀後呢,我們就開始。好,請宣讀。"},{"start":3239.894,"end":3259.172,"text":"討論事項第一案運動部組織法草案對照行政院提案委員鄭天才等提案除第八條第九條外名稱及其余條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表委員吳思瑤等提案除第一條第二條外名稱及其余條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表"},{"start":3259.873,"end":3287.378,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案除第一條、第二條外,名稱及其餘條文均同,行政院提案,修正部分,詳條文對照表。委員張雅玲等提案除第二條、第十條外,名稱及其餘條文均同,行政院提案,修正部分,詳條文對照表。委員陳秀寶等提案除第一條、第二條、第五條、第七條外,名稱及其餘條文均同,行政院提案,修正部分,詳條文對照表。委員陳廷飛等提案除第一條外,名稱及其餘條文均同,行政院提案,修正部分,詳條文對照表。"},{"start":3287.978,"end":3308.847,"text":"委員郭玉琴等提案,名稱及條文均同行政院提案。委員萬美玲等提案,除名稱第一條、第二條、第五條、第八條外,其餘條文均同行政院提案,修正部分詳條文對照表。委員沈發慧等提案,除第五條外,名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案,修正部分詳條文對照表。委員劉建國等提案,名稱及條文均同行政院提案。"},{"start":3309.407,"end":3337.025,"text":"委員李昆成等提案明稱及條文均同行政院提案委員陳培宇等提案除第一條、第二條、第五條外明稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表委員葉元之等提案除明稱第一條、第二條、第七條、第八條外第三條至第六條均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表委員林楚英等提案除第二條外明稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表"},{"start":3338.125,"end":3353.623,"text":"為盧明澤等提案,除名稱．第一條．第二條．第五條外．其餘條文均同行政院提案,修正部分想條文對照表。為林月琴等提案,除第二條．第十條外．名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案,修正部分想條文對照表。"},{"start":3354.827,"end":3377.208,"text":"委員徐宇珍等提案除名稱第一條、第五條、第八條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員葛如君等提案除名稱第一條、第二條、第五條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員王振旭等提案除第一條、第二條、第五條外名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。"},{"start":3378.669,"end":3396.201,"text":"第二案之一,運動部全民運動署組織法草案對照行政院提案委員政天才等提案除第五條外,名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分享條文對照表。"},{"start":3397.219,"end":3425.676,"text":"委員吳思瑤等提案除第二條外,名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員張雅玲等提案除第二條及第六條外,名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員陳秀寶等提案除第一條、第二條外,名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員范雲等提案名稱及第一條至第四條均同行政院提案第五條由行政院提案第六條條文第一。"},{"start":3427.301,"end":3448.717,"text":"委員外美林等提案,除名稱．條第2條外,其餘條文均同行政院提案,修正部分,詳條文對照表。委員審法會等提案,除第2條外,名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案,修正部分,詳條文對照表。委員李昆城等提案,名稱及條文均同行政院提案。委員陳培宇等提案,除第2條、第3條外,名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案,修正部分,詳條文對照表。"},{"start":3449.637,"end":3477.208,"text":"委員魯明澤等提案除名稱．一條．二條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員林月琴等提案除第2條．6條外名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員徐宇貞等提案除名稱及第1條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員王振旭等提案除第1條．2條外名稱及其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。"},{"start":3478.448,"end":3487.238,"text":"第二案之二運動發展部運動產業發展局組織法委員萬美玲等提案名稱運動發展部運動產業發展局組織法"},{"start":3490.868,"end":3495.131,"text":"第一條,運動發展部會辦理運動產業之正向發展,營造運動產業良好之經營環境,積極提升競爭力與國際接軌,並為國人建構優質運動休閒環境,特設運動發展部運動產業發展局,以下簡稱本局。"},{"start":3509.502,"end":3526.839,"text":"第二條本局掌理下列事項一、運動相關產業之政策執行及法規研擬二、運動產業之調查、統計及研究發展三、運動或其他相關產業跨領域創新之培植管理、輔導、獎勵四、運動相關產業之人才培育與媒合及國際交流"},{"start":3527.479,"end":3536.846,"text":"五、運動財券運動發展基金之執行督導及講注。六、職業或業與運動之聯繫及協調事項。七、公有私有運動場域與學校場地開放及社區運動俱樂部設置之輔導。八、運動相關產業國際交流與合作之推動及執行。九、其他有關運動相關產業發展業務事項。"},{"start":3552.296,"end":3573.436,"text":"第三條本局至局長一人職務列檢任第十三職等。副局長二人職務列檢任第十二職等。第四條本局至主任秘書職務列檢任第十一職等。第五條本局各職稱之官等職等及員額另以編制表定之。第六條本法實行日期由行政院定之。第三案國家"},{"start":3575.897,"end":3590.142,"text":"運動產業發展中心設置條例草案對照行政院提案委員鄭天才等提案除第19條外,明稱張明及其餘條文均統行政院提案修正部分想條文對照表。"},{"start":3590.802,"end":3619.694,"text":"委員陳秀寶等提案除第3條、第5條、第19條、第23條、第28條外。民稱張明及其餘條文均統行政院提案修正部分想條文對照表。委員郭育晴等提案除第9條、第12條、第16條及第19條外。民稱張明及其餘條文均統行政院提案修正部分想條文對照表。委員范雲等提案除第10條、第18條外。民稱張明及其餘條文均統行政院提案修正部分想條文對照表。委員羅廷偉等提案"},{"start":3620.194,"end":3648.986,"text":"除第二條、第二十五條外,名稱、章名及其餘條文均統行政院提案,修正部分、詳條文對照表。為審法會等提案除第六條、第七條外,名稱、章名及其餘條文均統行政院提案,修正部分、詳條文對照表。為陳培宇等提案除名稱、第一條、第三條、第六條、第二十三條外,章名及其餘條文均統行政院提案,修正部分、詳條文對照表。為王振旭等提案名稱、章名及其條文均統行政院提案,"},{"start":3651.189,"end":3675.551,"text":"第四案國家運動訓練中心設置條例修正草案對照行政院提案委員鄭天才等提案除第六條、第十九條及第二十二條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分向條文對照表委員范雲等提案除第八條同線型條文未修正外其餘條文均同行政院提案委員陳秀寶等提案"},{"start":3676.144,"end":3682.625,"text":"除第3條、第5條、第9條、第14條、第18條、第19條之一、第20條至第22條、第26條、第29條、第32條、第33條以外令第2條、第4條、第6條至第8條、第10條、第15條均同行政院提案修正部分相條文對照表文、國、疫情等提案"},{"start":3703.519,"end":3725.815,"text":"除第六條（至第八條（第十六條（第十九條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表委員羅廷偉等提案除第二條（第六條（第七條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表委員沈芳惠等提案條文均同行政院提案委員李坤澄等提案第二條同行政院提案"},{"start":3727.728,"end":3753.033,"text":"委員陳培宇等提案除第一條、第三條、第六條、第二十三條、第二十七條外其一條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員王振旭等提案除第九條、第十一條、第十八條、第二十二條、第二十三條外其一條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。委員萬美玲等提案除第二條、第三條、第八條外其一條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。"},{"start":3755.336,"end":3777.595,"text":"第五案國家運動科學中心設置條例部分條文修正草案對照行政院提案文鄭天才等提案條文均同行政院提案文范雲等提案第二條、第三條、第六條、第七條、第十八條、第十九條、第十九條之一、第二十一條均同行政院提案文陳秀寶等提案"},{"start":3778.601,"end":3787.948,"text":"除第五條、第二十七條、第三十三條外其余條文均統行政院提案修正部分、詳條文對照表、維國疫情等提案"},{"start":3789.133,"end":3815.729,"text":"除第十九條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。聞羅廷偉等提案除第二條第三條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。聞省發會等提案第二條第三條第八條第十八條第十九條第十九條之一第二十一條均同行政院提案。聞陳培宇等提案除第六條第二十二條外其餘條文均同行政院提案修正部分詳條文對照表。"},{"start":3816.809,"end":3841.585,"text":"委員葛如、君等提案除第二條外,第三條、第六條、第七條、第十八條、第十九條、第十九條之一、第二十一條均同行政院提案。修正部分詳條文對照表。委員王振旭等提案條文均同行政院提案。委員萬美玲等提案除第二條、第三條外,第六條、第七條、第十八條、第十九條、第十九條之一、第二十一條均同行政院提案。修正部分詳條文對照表。"},{"start":3842.998,"end":3866.207,"text":"第六案教育部組織法第二條、第五條及第九條條文修正草案對照行政院提案委員鄭天才等、委員陳冠廷等、委員范雲等提案第二條、第五條及第九條均同行政院提案委員張雅琳等提案第二條、第五條同行政院提案第九條條文修正部分詳條文對照表"},{"start":3867.745,"end":3896.929,"text":"委員陳秀寶等、委員郭玉琴等、委員萬美玲等、委員沈芳慧等、委員李坤誠等提案第二條、第五條、第九條均同行政院提案。委員陳培宇等提案除第二條外第五條及第九條均同行政院提案修正部分相條文對照表。委員盧明澤等提案第二條、第五條均同行政院提案。委員葛如軍等及委員王振旭等提案第二條、第五條、第九條條文均同行政院提案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3903.001,"end":3918.892,"text":"好。繼續修正動議部分,討論事項第一案修正動議一,對照行政院提案條文第二條,第一項第二款中規劃後增列、獎勵、多好等字其一未修正。提案人委員徐曉新、羅志強、何孟凱、林思明、謝龍介。"},{"start":3920.553,"end":3936.959,"text":"修正動議二（對照行政院提案條文第二條（第一項增訂第十款為十（保障運動產業勞動條件（促進勞資和諧（原第十款第一為第十一款（其一未修正。提案人委員林怡瑾（張雅琳（陳培瑜（"},{"start":3938.556,"end":3951.516,"text":"修正動議三（對照台灣民眾黨團提案條文（第二條修正部分想修正動議書面文字（第五條修正同行政院提案文字（提案人委員黃國昌、林倩琦、吳春成（"},{"start":3953.115,"end":3977.512,"text":"修正動議四,對照行政院提案條文第9條,增定第二項為,請下委員檢任兼任委任各官等人員,具原住民身分者均不得低於15%,本法鎖定禁用原住民比例,現有緣而未達比例者,似非原住民公務人員出缺後再行禁用補足。提案委員林倩琦、徐巧欣、吳春晨、曹孟凱,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3983.232,"end":4006.553,"text":"條文及所修正動議均已宣讀完畢現在依議程所列討論事項順序進行那我們討論事項第一案繼續併案審查現在行政院函請審議運動部組織法草案等29案現在進行討論好沒問題那我們就跟在場委員徵詢因為剛剛"},{"start":4011.055,"end":4031.374,"text":"已經進行了新增議案的提案說明那提案委員針對相異相同之處呢都已經分別做過了說明了那是否我們的大體討論現在呢就可以直接進入逐條討論OK嗎好那我們就進直接進行逐條討論那逐條討論呢來那我們就開始啦"},{"start":4035.851,"end":4052.225,"text":"好 那麼主條討論我們進行主條討論那麼因為這是本案是制定案那依序處理是名稱及十一條調適的順序那我們首先進行名稱那名稱既有運動部組織法、運動發展部組織法、體育及運動發展部組織法有這三個名稱"},{"start":4057.97,"end":4083.251,"text":"多數委員是用運動部組織法那請請教在場委員是否我們第一條名稱的部分我們採用運動部組織法是我同意同意同意好謝謝我們名稱就定為運動部組織法那麼接下來第一條的部分呢既有行政院提案那及各委員提案內容第一條那第一條有"},{"start":4085.664,"end":4092.509,"text":"第一條是否我們照行政院提案通過?"},{"start":4095.967,"end":4113.999,"text":"來請那曾委員、佩玉。謝謝主席。那我們的版本裡面加了良善治理的部分,那不過因為還沒有跟教育部溝通到這邊,那我們要講一下,因為如果教育部這邊有意見,我們也想要聽一下教育部這邊對於良善治理,我們的四個字加入有什麼不同的想法這樣。但是我們還蠻堅持的,其實包含體育團體,或者是很多"},{"start":4117.702,"end":4117.842,"text":"吳佩儀委員請發言。"},{"start":4132.891,"end":4160.23,"text":"第一條我是非常肯定我們把現在院版的是有把運動外交放入宗旨我們透過運動讓世界看到臺灣我覺得運動員就是我們最好的外交官那我的版本裡面我另外還有強調人才所以我有把保障選手與運動人才寫入法因為我認為選手的發展也是非常之重要的像我們的委任所大使劉伯鈞他有推動SAFE SPORT"},{"start":4160.23,"end":4178.456,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":4178.925,"end":4204.225,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王委員正式發言好 謝謝主席有關於第一條我們覺得還希望幫在這個提案說明所提到的運動跟健康是一定要連結在一起所以希望在第一條裡面就將健康也能夠納進來當然這個過程裡面需要推廣也需要研究所以本期我們幫是希望把第一條做成為行政院會辦理全國運動業務"},{"start":4206.896,"end":4216.884,"text":"促進全民運動與健康透過發展運動之推廣教育、競技、產業、研究與外交等等來特設運動部。以上。"},{"start":4219.565,"end":4241.298,"text":"好,謝謝關於第一條有意見的委員怡君發言。那我們現在就是請教育部針對剛剛陳委員、吳委員跟王委員針對第一條運動部組織它的首先它的設立之目的是不是要加入健康、良善管治理等等。那麼是請教育部是不是來次長來做說明嗎?來書長請。"},{"start":4245.67,"end":4264.236,"text":"針對以上委員提到的那良善治理的部分我們當初這一條我們主要講的是整個運動部成立它的價值不過良善治理這部分我們予以尊重那健康的部分即使我們當時曾經有提過需要用健康這個字眼不過在因為這跟"},{"start":4265.635,"end":4266.816,"text":"負責人事長"},{"start":4284.673,"end":4297.089,"text":"有關於這一個部分喔可能是不是因為當初在討論的時候那個應該是衛福部他們是擔心說會不會涉及到他們的那個權責的問題那現在衛福部有代表是不是可不可以請衛福部來說明一下謝謝"},{"start":4302.216,"end":4330.243,"text":"好 謝謝我們人事總處的說明那剛剛我們在名稱的部分請大家看到57頁我們還是確認一次57頁那我們就確定定名為運動部組織法再次確認那 那麼就行政院提案通過那第一條的部分有分別委員提出要加上良善治理或者加上健康但針對健康的部分的人事總處也說明了那請教在場委員"},{"start":4332.45,"end":4338.253,"text":"外交人才部分因為我們會在已經有在國際運動室以及我們運動產業這三個中心底下都有他的"},{"start":4350.99,"end":4365.657,"text":"我請看一下文字我的文字不是外交人才保障選手與運動人才抱歉抱歉保障選手吳佩奕委員的案子在第幾頁還在69頁69頁"},{"start":4381.519,"end":4394.522,"text":"對阿,是第一條,在六十月。是六十月還是六十月?抱歉抱歉,是六十月。那個在六十月。六十月的第二欄。第二列齁。非動運動外交。"},{"start":4407.461,"end":4424.035,"text":"來,那吳委員,您這是看到了在61頁的部分,60到61頁。這部分就是在我們的原本的文字裡面的禁忌這一部分已經包含全部了啦,其實它精神上已經包含在裡面了,是不是可以維持原版?"},{"start":4425.373,"end":4440.131,"text":"就是你們認為是行政院為辦理全國運動業務促進全民運動發展運動之教育競技你認為是包含在競技當中已經包含了運動外交的成分是這個意思嗎那"},{"start":4445.467,"end":4445.487,"text":"務委員"},{"start":4464.215,"end":4485.837,"text":"好,謝謝吳委員。那關於那個王委員的部分已經回應了。王委員,那個良善治理的部分,我們剛剛討論過說他其實在多元平權的部分在文字上其實都已經把那個精神包含在裡面了。我們是不是可以維持願辦?那健康的部分我們是不是可以在那個這個立案的說明裡面去"},{"start":4486.938,"end":4488.6,"text":"議員報告說明一下。"},{"start":4504.668,"end":4520.213,"text":"是因為我們知道我們的衛生部下面有國民健康署他的英文是Health Promotion他不只是一般的健康他是以健康促進為原則那我們也知道健康促進基本上會包括各種不同的層面"},{"start":4521.013,"end":4547.448,"text":"有lifestyle就是有些生活習慣形態的一些養成還有包括運動包括營養等等所以跟我們這邊講的運動其實還是即使是看起來好像是兩個字健康事實上他的做法他的這些內容是不太一樣的所以如果不方便放在條文的話我放在同意是放在這個說明裡面立法說明裡面或是用負擔決議來處理也可以謝謝"},{"start":4549.673,"end":4553.713,"text":"好,那請問站員委員對第一條還有沒有其他意見?來,我們那個校白委員。"},{"start":4554.995,"end":4580.115,"text":"謝謝主席現在是講第一條的部分那其實我這邊我的提案我是強調希望說因為我們強調是打造多元運動的環境以及落實運動平權既然承認運動部的主要目標是要提倡全民運動增進國民健康那我會希望說能夠把打造多元運動環境這個部分明定在條文裡面那在這邊我順便我要問一下那個體育署"},{"start":4581.456,"end":4590.54,"text":"關於動資券明年點列一億是因為說你們說是因為領取率跟使用率不高那體育署這邊提供給本學的數據說112年動資券可領人數是155萬10領人數是81萬"},{"start":4597.122,"end":4619.27,"text":"到底用能是五十萬那表示說動資券真正被利用的這個數量只有大概百分之三十五那如果說是因為領取率跟使用率的問題應該你們是要努力的去推廣及檢討怎麼會是直接簡列那簡列之後你們這樣子比較容易達標嗎那我們運動部成立之後的一個大的任務就是推動全民運動那日後這個動資券的發放也是促進全民運動的一個參與運動的一個手段喔運動部這邊也應該要積極的來推動來辦理相關這個政策"},{"start":4626.232,"end":4644.742,"text":"所以這邊我希望說你們也要表達一下你們對於說日後推廣這個全民運動包括這個動資券你們的這個領取率跟使用率如何提高這個部分我想請你們說明一下另外在這邊我還要再問一下齁昨天的新聞有指出說林玉婷在參加世界總盃參賽的資格又被質疑那最後教練是決定棄賽來表達抗議"},{"start":4647.984,"end":4676.503,"text":"那之後這樣在國際賽事如果有發生這樣的爭議運動部我們要如何保障我們選手的權益我們有沒有一個專責的單位來負責協助我國選手在國際賽事上可能面臨這些問題以上好謝謝陳秀寶委員那麼因為我們今天運動部組織法的審議大家也會關心能夠我們的中指能不能回應社會上的期待跟一些正在發生的事情是不是請體育署就這個部分先回應陳秀寶委員的詢問"},{"start":4678.889,"end":4703.519,"text":"保護員,那個在整個推廣運動文化並打造多元運動環境落實運動平權的部分,其實我們在條文裡面主要是以形塑運動文化這部分來涵蓋。那設施的部分我們在我們的初規程裡面,我們其實也會有一個運動設施式的部分來主責。是這部分我們是容許我們維持願板。那青春政治圈以及林雨琴的事件我們會持續的來檢討進進。謝謝。"},{"start":4706.803,"end":4727.637,"text":"好,謝謝。那王委員第三次發言請。好,謝謝主席。第三次發言就是有關於條文的部分,剛剛除了提到健康以外,還有包括推廣還有研究。那不知道目前有沒有其他的意見。如果說不方便放在條文的話,那是不是用立法說明來直接處理?包委員我們是不是可以用附帶決議的方式來執行?謝謝委員。"},{"start":4735.554,"end":4749.522,"text":"那我先彙整我們第一條現在在場委員的意見。那是不是因為今天在場委員分別就第一條的中止部分有吳委員關心的運動外交,有陳秀寶委員關心的多元運動環境、落實運動平權。"},{"start":4752.344,"end":4773.768,"text":"有我們王振旭委員關心的．包括健康以及推廣．和研究以及外交的部分．也有陳佩玉委員關心的．良善治癒的部分．那麼事後委員同意這些內涵．請教育部．現在體育署先將這些內容．轉為附帶決議的方式．我們在最後確認條文的同時．我們再來做進行．"},{"start":4776.869,"end":4798.435,"text":"確認好不好那再讓委員說我同意我們第一條依行政院版通過然後諸位委員的意見我們以互帶決的方式來陪議委員主席我同意那我是不是可以請提議署都會說明的時候因為這個條文太多版本又太多是不是可以講因為他有時候會說我有寫在哪裡你們能不能明確指出說寫在第幾條就這樣比較清楚一點"},{"start":4800.496,"end":4824.488,"text":"那待會我們機關在說明的時候教育部在說明的時候呢請就委員的版本因為今天有二十幾個案子所以我們的條文對照表可能要找一會兒我會也幫忙來提示在第幾頁好那麼關於我們運動部的設置的目的及隸屬關係在草案條文第一條我們是否就依行政院版來照案通過"},{"start":4828.887,"end":4844.378,"text":"主席抱歉我建議因為我們版本真的那麼多那其實各委員會當然有不同的一個進行做法但是你現在這樣講我們其實不確定說到底你到時候通過的文字是怎麼樣所以說是不是還是我們能夠打出來"},{"start":4845.814,"end":4865.424,"text":"好不好,我們請那個會場的工作人員,剛剛我們通過的是第一條,那我們試著把它表達在我們的螢幕上,請大家看第58頁,在這之前我們為了把握寶貴的時間,謝謝洪委員的提醒,我主席這邊帶著大家看第58頁,第一案的第58頁。"},{"start":4866.545,"end":4887.769,"text":"第一條,行政院為辦理全國運動業務、促進全民運動、發展運動之教育、競技、產業與外交、形塑運動文化並落實多元平權、社會包容及永續發展之價值,特赦運動部,以下簡稱本部。來,羅委員。我們這鄰居這麼久還叫我羅委員。"},{"start":4897.178,"end":4922.798,"text":"主席不好意思,因為我在教文今天也是召委主席,所以今天因為沒有大體討論,我是不是能夠把我的案子稍微講一下。沒關係,我們現在您對於我們全案的意見先表達。對,我稍微講一下就好,好不好,謝謝。我想這次的提案其實跟行政院版有一個最大不同的地方,就是本席增設了運動產業發展局,那跟院版設立國家運動產業發展中心是有點不一樣的。"},{"start":4923.559,"end":4925.84,"text":"我簡單說一個數據,我想這幾年來我們看到運動產業是蓬勃發展。財政部有一個數據,就是這五年來我們的運動服務盈利的加速持續增加。大概從107年的2280家上升到110年的3916家。"},{"start":4942.648,"end":4943.228,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":4963.613,"end":4967.277,"text":"因為整個運動產業發展涉及政策的推動執行輔導跟補助並且其實和那個相關的職業或者是業餘運動聯盟間的協調還有公有私有運動場域跟學校場地的開放還有社區運動俱樂部設置的輔導等等都非常的重要那就舉例來說這一次我們棒球十二強其實在我們這次作為主管機關的體育署"},{"start":4988.457,"end":5016.859,"text":"他可以運用這公權力來協助中華辦協跟中華職棒甚至於在勤收啦後勤啊很多的事項部分都可以來協助幫忙所以我想在這運動產業其實是相對的重要的那麼在這個另外還有一個就是說在十二強賽之後又再被拿出來討論的還有我們企業跟個人贊助運動產業的這個租稅減免還有運動發展基金運動財政的部分這些都涉及到主管機關他要運用高度的公權力的執行那才有辦法去落實"},{"start":5017.7,"end":5039.789,"text":"所以我想這個是我們特別提出這個運動產業發展局的一個重要那當然原本是規劃要用行政法人來執行這些前述相關的業務不過依據這個行政法人法第二條規定行政法人設立是所設公權力行使程度較低者那恐怕涉及高度公權力的業務會難以執行了所以"},{"start":5040.429,"end":5053.934,"text":"更嚴重的可能就是我們在這個將來立法院是沒有辦法直接去這個監督的所以我想在我的修法上面跟審訊院版本最不一樣的地方就是增設了這個運動產業發展局那以上做一個說明希望大家來這個共同支持"},{"start":5054.52,"end":5070.286,"text":"好,非常感謝萬美女委員很辛苦教委員的召委主席今天特別來跟委員會報告一下聯繫委員會說明一下目前關於所謂的次級機關的部分既有紅委員孟凱提出的運動產業局楊委員瓊英提出的運動產業局台灣民眾黨黨團提案的運動產業發展局以及委員徐富奎提的運動產業發展署和葛如軍委員所提的運動產業署以及目前我們剛剛"},{"start":5084.532,"end":5111.543,"text":"灣美玲委員所提出的運動產業發展局然後因為目前的這些提案的委員條文版本當中那麼萬委員有罪於運動產業發展局提出他的組織法草案那麼這個在本案目前是第一案第一案我們處理的組織法組織法的第五條在97頁的部分我們是不是到那時候再來做處理是否同意那個萬委員可以嗎我們第五條的部分"},{"start":5113.902,"end":5120.993,"text":"好,到第五條是不是不能處理嗎?萬委員?就是這個是在我們的第五條,現在處理第一條。對。可以嗎?好,我們第五條再來處理好不好?可以可以,好。謝謝謝謝,感謝。謝謝感謝,謝謝。好,那請問我們剛剛齁,這個請我們的議場工作人員努力的"},{"start":5129.326,"end":5129.426,"text":"主席"},{"start":5151.92,"end":5168.716,"text":"好,因為我們第二條有增加修正動議請宣讀。委員手上可以看到單頁的,這裡面有第二條的修正動議請宣讀。討論事項第一案修正動議五。對趙宏永凱委員等19人提案條文第二條。第二款。"},{"start":5170.615,"end":5184.19,"text":"規劃後增列推動兩次。第四款,修正為競技運動發展與選手之培植輔導及生涯規劃。第八款,修正為職業運動之推動輔導及協調事項。第九款,修正為運動產業發展及運動"},{"start":5193.194,"end":5203.83,"text":"產業人才之培植、輔導及發展建立運動博物館等文化、歷史保存紀念場館其餘未修建提案委員紅夢凱、吳春晨、羅廷偉宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5206.004,"end":5235.129,"text":"好跟聯席委員會說明齁目前呢我們修正動議呢既有包括委員羅志強、徐小新等人以及委員林益臣等人、委員黃國昌等人以及委員林倩琴等人和剛剛宣讀的委員洪孟楷等人的第二條的修正動議那依照議事的規則我們修正動議先討論然後再回到本文來齁那請問這幾位委員是不是就你們的修正動議請做一個說明來請徐小新委員"},{"start":5235.694,"end":5258.147,"text":"好那謝謝我對於這個院版的其實第二條沒有太多的意見那唯一就是在第二條的第二部分就是身心條件性別族群區域射精地位等各方面推動多元運動平權之規劃那這個部分呢因為我想其實他講的比較像是說如果你非運動競技發展選手的這個部分"},{"start":5261.209,"end":5265.79,"text":"那是不是在比較民間的運動產業的部分也應該會提供獎勵?那我們在這個院版的法條裡面是沒有把獎勵給放進去的。所以我在這裡就具體的建議說在這個第二條第二款的部分我們可以就是把"},{"start":5280.074,"end":5281.876,"text":"除了規劃推動輔導管理跟監督之外我們也把這個獎勵放進去那讓我們的民眾一般民眾他可能在做很多運動的時候呢他也能夠有這個獎勵那因為呢"},{"start":5296.809,"end":5315.339,"text":"我看到後面也有提到獎勵的部分但是看起來他是針對這個競技運動發展跟選手的培育的部分而不是所謂的區域社會經濟面向多元運動平權的部分那我覺得這個部分呢獎勵也是相當重要的希望能夠歸納在文字裡面謝謝好謝謝謝謝我們許委員的意見請問有關於修正動議的部分提案委員有沒有其他的補充說明來請黃孟楷委員"},{"start":5328.07,"end":5353.73,"text":"主席感謝我想第二條我們就是要針對本部的這個長禮的部分來做一個明確的範圍的一個擬定那其中行政部門的版本以及我們各委員的版本其實也都已經有把我們對於未來運動部的期待都給寫出來所以我想這是好事那獎勵的部分剛剛徐巧欣委員的修正動議本席也支持"},{"start":5354.09,"end":5367.226,"text":"我也認為是說就應該是要明定在這個條文裡面也要把我們獎勵給放進來因為最主要其實我們剛剛通過的第一條行政院的版本它其實四大面向"},{"start":5368.868,"end":5372.509,"text":"關於選手的培植、輔導跟生涯規劃可能會是更在競技運動發展跟競技發展規劃執行跟督導的部分我想更納入所謂的選手那選手不只是包括說有我們的這個"},{"start":5399.221,"end":5399.521,"text":"另外第九（"},{"start":5418.285,"end":5444.299,"text":"其實像這一次我們也提說運動部能夠來做成立這個是國人大家共同所關心也是我們體育界的大事那很多體育界的先進也過去到現在也都講我們中華隊來在國際上的一些發光發熱的一個比賽項目包括說從最開始我們得到奧運的獎牌或是1992年巴塞隆納奧運的時候的棒球的銀牌"},{"start":5444.839,"end":5470.779,"text":"此外,我們地面金牌2004年雅典奧運以及2020年東京奧運、2024年我們的巴黎奧運都拿到非常不錯的一個成績那甚至在這一次的一個十二強以及我們過去的一些國際賽事、重大賽事裡面其實也都有非常多的一個成績那這些成績其實它背後有更多的是故事以及它背後有更多的是這個"},{"start":5472.91,"end":5473.81,"text":"則不予審查二十三）至．二十九）"},{"start":5502.779,"end":5522.671,"text":"民眾、球迷也都期待說是不是這次十二強我們拿到的冠軍獎盃能夠放在棒球場裡面來做一個公開的展示那其實這樣子的方向我們絕對是樂於支持所以我們也期待是說未來能夠有一個運動博物場館的部分把所有我們"},{"start":5523.131,"end":5543.695,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5544.11,"end":5561.666,"text":"日本、韓國、美國等世界民主先進國家也都有類似的運動場館或是運動博物館或是運動紀念館的一個設置所以我們呼籲應該要把這一個一起放進來那我想這也是我們共同政府應該來支持的一個部分"},{"start":5563.006,"end":5586.051,"text":"好 謝謝紅夢海委員跟我聯繫委員說明一下目前我們在處理的大家手頭上有的單頁就是白色的這個修正動議有一修正動議二修正動議三修正動議五剛剛紅夢海委員講的是修正動議五那至於條文對照表我們請翻開第68頁到第69頁目前審理的是運動部組織法第二條那接下來是吳春城委員發言請"},{"start":5587.096,"end":5590.727,"text":"那有其他的委員就本案的部分要做說明的也請表達。謝謝。"},{"start":5592.554,"end":5618.919,"text":"好,待會（待會（先吳沈澄（先吳沈澄（再吳沈澄（再郭育行（我們針對現在第二條的審議講的是運動部的那個長禮的一個權責那對於這個院版的這一個所敘述的這十項我們基本上沒有意見不過我覺得還是不足還是不足"},{"start":5619.939,"end":5636.082,"text":"現在整個的運動部的成立我覺得知識體大這是一件很重要的一件事情那不是當作因為競技運動的全民化"},{"start":5637.039,"end":5637.299,"text":"刘仲敬議"},{"start":5654.821,"end":5661.583,"text":"主要增加的幾項是在院板裡面所沒有的就是我們現在有關運動產業發展條例還有國民體育法這個現在應該要隨著這個版本"},{"start":5678.848,"end":5678.968,"text":"主席"},{"start":5698.59,"end":5725.205,"text":"再來的話就是對於學校體育發展的規劃也沒有看到在我們的院板裡面因為各個學校的推動還有地方政府的運動政策的規劃看起來也沒有在我們的這個運動部的體育規劃裡面另外有關於國家運動訓練中心國家運動科學中心還有國家運動產業發展中心的這一些相關的督導"},{"start":5727.127,"end":5749.46,"text":"這個規劃也沒有在這個院版的裡面所以希望能夠增列這一些部分以上好謝謝吳政政委員吳政政委員剛剛所講的是跟委員說明一下是修正動議第三那待會我們再先請進行到提案本門的部分先請吳佩儀委員那除了剛剛另外三位委員之外最後還有羅廷威委員以及我們柯昭偉來請我們現在請吳佩儀委員"},{"start":5751.806,"end":5770.456,"text":"好這第二條主要討論的是我們運動部的執掌那我提出來的有幾點第一個是第二條的第二款我希望把兒少權益保障也可以入訪那我很肯定這一次我們在第二條裡面其實院版就已經具有多元平權跟包容的精神"},{"start":5770.876,"end":5791.697,"text":"但是過去在實務上我們看到兒少運動的保護例如臺中曾經發生有柔道館有男童不幸死亡的案件那在很多的性平案件當中也很多是成年教練跟問成年選手之間發生的問題所以是讓我們相當擔憂所以我是希望說第二款可以"},{"start":5794.22,"end":5807.616,"text":"再來是第五款非常之肯定願版把運動文化記憶之保存及在線文字納入那我的版本是希望把它獨立成為一款因為前幾年體育署有開始做運動博覽會"},{"start":5808.897,"end":5816.46,"text":"其實非常重要,也讓我們看到說目前我們的運動文物是四散的,包括像這次十二強,我們有獎盃,我們有球,那更有更多的選手他過去的故事例如像我們萬華東元國小,這個江崑宇、張毅啊,像朱育璇曾經是我們教練,記者都來希望我們可以幫忙找當年的畢業紀念冊,故事等等。"},{"start":5831.887,"end":5842.737,"text":"這都需要來做口述歷史的訪問它其實是很大的工作要做所以我知道有委員想要徵求運動博物館我也肯定但是肯定我們這件事一定是要從文物的盤點開始做起你要先辦小展覽有長色展"},{"start":5847.662,"end":5847.782,"text":" ﹏﹏二十九）"},{"start":5864.887,"end":5883.917,"text":"在國際賽事遇到爭議的時候權益的保障這次林玉婷的事件之前我們教育部跟體育署都非常的支持本次我們也派了副署長來陪同出賽但是我們不可能每一個個案都要都派副署長來陪同出席所以我認為這個應該國際我們選手在國際賽事的權益應該要常態化來協助"},{"start":5890.84,"end":5917.147,"text":"例如說2011年我們臺拳道選手楊淑君2013年我們臺拳道選手朱牧原都曾經打到瑞士洛桑的國際體育仲裁法庭所以這方面我們其實叫未來的運動部一定要有法律的專業並且常態化的機制來協助選手保障在國際賽事中的權益以上三點是我希望能夠增加的部分謝謝"},{"start":5917.827,"end":5925.467,"text":"好,謝謝吳佩儀委員。接下來請我們林月琴委員。那後面是郭育晴委員。那剛剛有舉手的有王振旭委員跟那個林一金委員。"},{"start":5927.517,"end":5928.618,"text":"謝謝,那請問郭委員後面再來"},{"start":5955.144,"end":5976.709,"text":"陳培韻委員請謝謝主席這個地方第二條的部分我想說先加在那個說明的部分因為想說這個政策跟法規研擬規劃推動管理跟監督過程當中應該充分聽取體育運動員教練運動團體以及社區的意見並符合身心障礙者的權利公約跟兒童權利公約"},{"start":5977.489,"end":5996.21,"text":"那我想這個部分其實大家都知道運動員其實跟教練其實是運動的整個所有的核心的群體那透過他們的一些就是包含一些什麼比賽的機制公平競爭福利保障等等其實都會直接影響他們的權益所以這個部分我想說是不是可以加在這個說明的部分"},{"start":5996.79,"end":6016.938,"text":"另外像是社區的部分我想這個運動團體其實也是推動這個體育活動重要的力量那社區更是體育運動的一個基本建設的根本所以這個部分我想說是放在這個說明當中那身心障礙者的權利公約當然我們也希望是在體育政策當中也特別要去特別重視這一塊"},{"start":6018.198,"end":6037.432,"text":"另外在兒童權利公約的部分,包含如果有所謂的防止過度的訓練或不當的對待,其實這個部分我們也應該要納入。所以我在想說這個部分我們是不是放在第二條的說明當中。以上。好,謝謝。接下來有請陳佩玉委員。"},{"start":6038.217,"end":6067.347,"text":"好,謝謝主席喔那我想要呼應一下剛剛沛玉委員提到了其實很多的運動文物必須要開始有系統的規劃盤點跟收藏所以它都可以透過小型策展的部分開始但如果最後我們想像的是一個大型的運動博物館如果在前面這些必須累積的事情沒有做那就算我們的版本提出運動博物館那假設未來運動部也真的想要做這件事情但在前端沒有任何的累積其實到最後那個博物館都可能只是"},{"start":6068.067,"end":6069.469,"text":"在第八個部分我們提到全國性運動團體的業務健全發展跟良善治理那我要再次強調"},{"start":6083.591,"end":6103.062,"text":"過去在體育署的政策試驗當中都比較是單向協會或者是特定體育團體但是我們這一次拉到全國性運動主要是因為其實不管在屢次的運動部研究會議當中或者是很多專家學者都提出其實全民運動這件事情必須是運動部接下來非常重要的任務"},{"start":6103.802,"end":6130.263,"text":"當然培養國家競技運動的選手這個很重要但如果運動沒有辦法走入全民的生活很多事情都只是枉然我們可能會在運動部更多的資源跟人力跟預算的配置底下產生更多扭曲的競技運動選手跟他們的相關生活其實在很多的新聞報導也都看到了那所以呢我們還有提到關於身心障礙競技運動的部分也是希望搭配著適應體育的融合共融這件事情共同去規劃跟想像以上謝謝"},{"start":6131.26,"end":6135.927,"text":"好,謝謝陳美媛,接下來請羅廷偉委員,然後之後是柯政委員,先請羅委員。"},{"start":6137.469,"end":6166.775,"text":"好謝謝趙偉不好意思因為待會還有這個教育文化委員會的質詢大家都很多那我想簡單的跟大家說明我想在這個第二條這個過程當中我們看到有一些文字上用的比較沒有這麼的強而有力讓我們很擔心我想呼應剛剛徐曉欣委員所說的獎勵的部分以及我們的這個洪孟凱委員有這個博物館的部分我另外想要說就是我們在修正動議這個有提到有關於這個第四款"},{"start":6167.575,"end":6189.435,"text":"他說培植、輔導及生涯規劃我們希望在這個規劃執行及督導的部分希望能夠改為規劃執行及督導我希望還能夠更有強而有力的一個字眼在這個第二條裡面讓運動部能夠強而有力的執行那我們在最近的不管是這樣子的運動棒球熱其實我們在地方其實蠻多的一些家長在反映"},{"start":6190.735,"end":6207.101,"text":"連公園、連很多的地點都找不到能夠投接球。當然不奢求要打棒球啦。我覺得連基本的父子之間的投接球都很難找到這樣子的一個地點。你說要廣設棒球場這一點是非常的困難。"},{"start":6208.001,"end":6230.637,"text":"但是連找到一個地方能夠做一個頭接球或者是小型的草皮能夠去做一個足球的一個運動我想對所有的家長來說都是非常奢求的一件事情所以我們希望未來運動部在這樣子的一個眾所期待的過程當中能夠擁有更強有力的字眼去做各部位的一個協調能夠找到更多的這樣子的一個契機在推廣全民運動"},{"start":6231.357,"end":6232.638,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":6248.2,"end":6275.333,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":6275.433,"end":6295.472,"text":"我對於第二條我們這個博物館以及紀念相關的歷史我覺得這個部分我們是非常的希望能夠有所執行保留在這一個條文當中所以我想各部會剛剛有許多的委員都蠻支持的但是要怎麼去盤點相關的一個歷史文物或者是要再設置在哪裡當然我們要去啟動相關的盤點"},{"start":6296.673,"end":6324.799,"text":"但是我想要再一次的加強就是說現在各縣市有所謂的名人堂或者是台中有新農牛相關的一個紀念的一個展區但是都是屬於地區型的沒有真正國家級的所以我想國家級的或者是未來能夠有相關的歷史文物的一個保存這是眾所期待也希望能夠在運動部這個部分能夠有所發展謝謝接下來請柯政委員然後是王振訊委員"},{"start":6325.407,"end":6343.326,"text":"好謝謝主席我剛剛有特別提的一個有關於這第二條的一個附帶的決議因為你看看我對這個條文其實沒有什麼太大的意見但是你看到這個討論到這個執掌的這個內涵裏面他其實在第二條第四款裏面有明文的究竟提到了有關於這些運動教練的這個層面"},{"start":6345.808,"end":6351.249,"text":"所以我的附帶決議其實最大的一個主軸是幫這個基層的運動教練要來發聲因為我們目前來說你可以看出我們這整個的專業運動教練他是完全牽涉到我們所謂的選訓賽輔這就是培訓比賽輔導這是完全息息相關那目前來說因為同樣是運動教練雖然是教育人員來一個任用但是有很多的機關跟單位也有同樣是教育人員但是他不見得一定要放在教育部"},{"start":6373.294,"end":6380.315,"text":"那我意思就是說應該把這些所謂的基層教練的這樣的一個組織是放在運動部這其實是有很大的不一樣因為我們這個競技運動是高度的一個專業的一個工作那政府在運動部成立之後應該培養更多專業的運動專業官員來長期投入這個經營甚至舉辦這個體育行政專業人員的這個特考有關於體育相關科系畢業的人員來擔任行政官員這是很重要的關鍵環節"},{"start":6402.7,"end":6413.244,"text":"那目前為止這個國內的學校裡面有很多的社團都是外聘教練學生而且要交費如果學校可以是一個參加的社團而且是安全免費有專業的運動教練來指導我覺得這可以帶動整個的競技運動的全民化所以我認為能夠把它納入校園師資有證照跟品格的一個管項"},{"start":6422.347,"end":6440.395,"text":"所以我這邊為什麼要提出這樣的一個所謂的附帶決議,希望大家來做樣一個支持。那我們就是覺得目前現有的這個部分,把運動教練部分還放在我們教育部來說的話,這其實跟我們未來運動部要發展的一些專業的部分是有一些的漢格的。"},{"start":6441.055,"end":6455.485,"text":"目前來說你看桌球與球很多要參加的學生都要繳費而且是需要自己辦社團這是一個很奇怪的事件所以說如果能夠把這個專任的運動教練歸屬於這個運動部和體育班基層訓練站一樣都歸體育部的話那體育老師放到這個教育部然後把運動教練放在這個所謂的運動部我想對於整個運動還有對基層教練來說的話會是讓他們覺得不管在職業在未來的這個所謂的專業的活動上面應該更具有保障度謝謝"},{"start":6471.295,"end":6493.209,"text":"好,跟聯席委員說明一下,剛剛柯委員所說的是他有一個附帶決議,一共兩個案,大家可以參考我們兩頁的這個文字內容。好,那麼因為今天提案的委員相當多,我們是不是先本案,修正動議跟附帶決議都讓大家表示意見。接下來請王振旭委員,王振旭委員之後是林一金委員,然後再來是張雅琳委員。"},{"start":6493.953,"end":6519.132,"text":"好 謝謝主席 針對第二條分析有三點意見第一個就是在第二款的部分身心條件中間應該加一個健康我們知道身心的條件事實上跟健康脫不了關係所以入法健康的話可以讓他更為完整還有剛剛一群委員也提到在這個第二款裡面包括性別跟族群中間也希望能夠"},{"start":6520.533,"end":6520.633,"text":"則不予審查"},{"start":6537.551,"end":6561.118,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6561.118,"end":6579.309,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6579.389,"end":6603.697,"text":"有關於多元運動專業人才的培育這一部分能夠有更完整的闡述我們知道多元運動專業人才是非常籠統的字眼所以本席在這邊期待在這個立法說明將本條第四款是多元運動專業人才系包括教練、裁判、防護員、培練員、物理治療師、運動館"},{"start":6606.538,"end":6620.029,"text":"長管營運人才、賽事規劃及辦理人才等健全各項運動發展、形塑安全健康、運動觀念與專業環境之相關人才,這樣的話就能夠規範得更清楚。以上。"},{"start":6621.069,"end":6638.322,"text":"好,謝謝王正勳委員跟委員,聯席委員說明一下,目前王正勳委員剛念的是他的本,他的提案,在我們條文隊的第87頁到第88頁,那接下來呢是請林一金委員,那林委員是要就修正動議他的第,第二案嗎?是不是,第三案嗎?"},{"start":6639.755,"end":6639.895,"text":"謝謝主席。"},{"start":6656.389,"end":6685.495,"text":"世界棒球十二強、台灣奪冠、舉國歡騰令人感動可是我們有接近這樣的成績絕非偶然這是職棒產業跟運動產業整體從業人員長期來投入跟累積的成果所以鑑於運動部設置的一個重大的任務就是發展運動產業而且而勞工就是所謂的受雇者是產業的根本所以我覺得我們應該要重視基層勞工的工作環境和條件所以我提出修正動議就是把"},{"start":6686.195,"end":6709.251,"text":"保障運動產業勞動條件,促進勞資和諧,納入運動部長旅的事項之一。那我想勞工是產業的根本大家都非常清楚,可是把勞工留住產業才有活水,那不能因為說運動產業還有方方面面必須要建設跟開發,那為求這個經濟的成果就不行犧牲勞工權益的勞碌。"},{"start":6710.211,"end":6737.683,"text":"所以我們特別是另外還要談到運動產業的特殊性就更有這個主管機關要積極協助建立友善勞動環境的必要為什麼說呢你說像職業運動員為例相較於其他的行業運動員的職涯其實相當的短暫那很可能就是落在20歲到30多歲這樣的一個寶貴的歲月所以運動員跟僱主的談判爭取這個權益所需付出的成本相當的高"},{"start":6738.183,"end":6767.016,"text":"所以若沒有建權工會或主管機關的協力其實很難堅固自身的勞權所以中華職棒全員工會也有指出建權的環境來自建權的制度那麼像美國、日本、韓國這種職棒產業的先行者團體協約的扮演不只是保障國家隊更包含勞動條件、從業制度的保障跟勞資和諧的契約框架等等"},{"start":6767.856,"end":6790.134,"text":"可以讓選手們更安心的投入職業生涯以上也請部會跟各位同仁多多支持謝謝謝謝跟林委員說明剛剛林錦委員他是針對行政院版的修正動議可以看我們的修正動議的第二份接下來再請張雅琳委員那之後是陳秀寶委員請發言張雅琳委員"},{"start":6792.885,"end":6819.232,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我的第二條呢我主要是強調幾個面向就是在第一款的部分我覺得我們應該要定名這是一個國家運動政策國家應該要持續的去做這些更有計畫長遠性的一些規劃所以我是把國家在運動政策前面加了國家兩個字那第二個部分呢是去在身心條件在第二款裡面我強化了年齡身心條件年齡因為過去我們常常都會忽略年齡可是我們在兒少不管是"},{"start":6819.892,"end":6822.196,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":6832.336,"end":6850.609,"text":"我強化一個是競技運動與發展與選手之培育選拔、獎勵跟福利以及在福利的部分以及還有輔導生涯發展及權益保障。但是這個福利的部分我是認為是說我們現在其實也是需要提供一些相關的福利制度規劃來去保障我們的運動員這樣子。"},{"start":6854.088,"end":6878.283,"text":"再來是下面的一個法證教練與多元運動專業人才之培育真能認證及法證我加了法證兩個字那法證主要是因為我們過去常常遇到很多這個單向協會治理的問題所以我覺得這個法證的部分是不是也可以來考慮中央跟協會之間我們未來有運動部之後要如何來去管理這個法證的制度"},{"start":6879.702,"end":6908.722,"text":"再來是第七款的部分我在運動設施發展與運動裡面與場館的後面我加了種類運動設施與場館之種類因為不然我會擔心是說我們沒有把種類分出來我們可能建制的場館就會非常的單一沒有辦法去符合世界的趨勢所以強化這個種類是讓我們在未來去做一些場館設置的時候可以更清楚的去做盤點再來就是第八個"},{"start":6910.123,"end":6932.564,"text":"好,就是也是在第8款的部分在全國性運動團體業務健全發展與良善治理之促進、輔導及督導。好,我加了督導兩個字,就是這次回到我剛剛前面講的,就是我們有關於我們現在的單項協會的治理上面,其實不能只是規劃一些課程給他們,我們應該還要有更多的監督的工作。謝謝。"},{"start":6934.073,"end":6943.418,"text":"好剛剛我們張雅玲委員她的在條文對照表的第75頁到第76頁接下來陳秀寶委員的是在條文對照表的第77頁到第78頁請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":6946.818,"end":6973.355,"text":"謝謝主席我們現在討論的是第二條的部分那本席在第五款本席是把運動文化記憶之保存與再現的這個部分的記憶拿掉我是希望說在條文上是比較直觀比較好理解因為運動部是要推廣全民運動用比較平易近人的文字來讓民眾比較了解這個運動的這個運動部的這個權限比較能夠貼近民眾的生活那在第七款的部分因為學校體育包括12年"},{"start":6974.255,"end":6977.537,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":6998.008,"end":7016.956,"text":"發展的部分加了全民兩次是希望說教育部如果說教育部你們覺得有更好的這個詞彙也可以提出來討論是希望說運動部可以整合這個各縣市的這個運動的各式場館那協助地方政府的建置場地租屋界的一個系統讓民眾可以更清楚清楚的知道就哪些運動場館是可以運用的"},{"start":7018.737,"end":7034.089,"text":"那本席認為說運動場館應該要看他的硬體設施及場地規模來演繹不同的運動申請是不是適合讓我們這些相關的運動場館的租用運用是可以更活化那在第八款的部分呢本席是在"},{"start":7034.529,"end":7039.213,"text":"全國性運動團體業務健全發展與良善治理之促進輔導後面加了監督兩個字就是要強調運動部對全國性的運動團體的監督尤其是各單項協會國家其實每年有提供各單項協會許多的補助款但是各單項協會一直有發生各式各樣的問題那也嚴重的影響到民眾對於體育署的這些信心"},{"start":7059.187,"end":7065.251,"text":"希望是藉由這次運動部的成立本是希望說運動部要明確訂定相關的這個監督的這個規範明確要求各單項協會應該重視選手的權益那在地方的這個單項協會的運動委員會呢因為不屬於體育團體是歸順在人民團體"},{"start":7078.08,"end":7100.414,"text":"對,但是單項運動委員會也常常是承辦了大量的地方的單項體育活動,包含比賽活動、領選甚至是課程。那每次有發生問題的時候,地方的體育局沒有辦法約束它。那運動部有沒有預計我們如何協助縣市政府在這些地方的單項委員會如何做規範跟做管理?以上。"},{"start":7101.974,"end":7117.994,"text":"好,謝謝陳秀寶委員,跟聯席委員會說明一下,第二條發言委員相當踴躍,既有13人次發言,分別針對的內容有修正動議4個案,有各自委員的提案版本,"},{"start":7118.534,"end":7139.955,"text":"以及附帶決議已案。因為附帶決議尚未宣讀,我們待會在處理之前一定要讓附帶決議先宣讀。在這裡先請教育部跟體育署針對剛剛十三位委員分別就行政院版所提的修正動議或是委員各自第二條的條文版本內容以及所提出來的附帶決議內容"},{"start":7141.256,"end":7169.401,"text":"那麼請先做個會診我們讓體育署有時間去進行會診那我們現在先請做綜合答覆那待會我們會進行附帶決的宣讀來請綜合答覆張偉那我這邊因為真的太多所以我如果遺漏的話再請委員再提醒我一下那我就因為太多委員所以我可能沒辦法依照順序我先從黃孟楷委員這邊黃孟楷委員剛剛提到的選手的這個"},{"start":7170.083,"end":7188.073,"text":"整個的培植、輔導這部份我們精神已經在我們的文字裡面已經有納入了。所以這部份是不是容許我們維持願版的大方向。那那個建立運動博物館等等我們在我們的文字裡面也有包括了運動文化基的保存典藏這部份我想都已經納在這裡面。"},{"start":7190.627,"end":7217.904,"text":"這個我們的任務範圍掌理的事項比較屬於大方向那運動博物館這部分我們後面等成立之後我們會再做研議不過在這個文字方面我們是不是容許我們就以大方向的這個運動文化的這個記憶這個保存典藏這部分的字眼來維持院版的部分那再是徐曉欣委員的部分那獎勵的部分這部分我們尊重委員的意見"},{"start":7225.302,"end":7236.114,"text":"民眾黨五村城委員的部份,學校體育的部份未來會是在教育部的部門。"},{"start":7242.834,"end":7244.235,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":7270.434,"end":7296.666,"text":"過去我們在部裡面已經有多次的討論我想這部分的分工細節我們會再謹慎的來處理那地方的部分呢那應該屬於地方的事務所以這部分我們還是回歸到地方的權責那在三中心的部分我們在三個中心的事實條例裡面都會明定他們的督導機關就是運動部所以我們就不會在這個運動部組織法裡面特別再去明定他是三個中心的督導的機關"},{"start":7302.66,"end":7317.49,"text":"關於李警委員剛提到的所謂勞動的部分那因為我們現行的勞動的相關法規都已經算相當的完備了那我們在運動部的部分本來就應該遵守啦所以這部分是不是容許我們用附帶局的方式來進行一個"},{"start":7318.651,"end":7322.436,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":7338.415,"end":7341.197,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":7366.852,"end":7389.565,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7391.977,"end":7412.698,"text":"那關於林月琴委員提到的年齡的部分,那我們這個整個的文字已經有所謂的全民化,所以我們這部分是容許我們就不再去在另外再增加,已經包含在這裡面了。那那個郭玉琴委員提到的選手權益的部分以及社區的部分,其實我們已經在我們的"},{"start":7414.396,"end":7441.037,"text":"呃,文字裡面都精神都已經納入,那身心障礙以及兒燒的部分也是都已經把它納入,那特別適應體育這邊有特別說明喔,其實我們在當初在諮詢委員會討論的時候我們特地避開身心障礙這個字眼啦,我們是希望說在全民的部分我們就用適應運動這件事情來,這個字眼來,來代表,那比較偏禁忌的部分就是怕啦,所以我們在字眼裡面其實整個適應運動就包含了全民的身心障礙的部分以及"},{"start":7441.577,"end":7441.737,"text":"則不予審查。"},{"start":7457.507,"end":7485.45,"text":"這份是容許我們把這個文字能夠維持的願版那吳佩儀委員的部分也是相關於有關於兒少多元平權選手權益及法律的專業那我們的確在出入規程裡面我會也會有法制組的部分法制處的編制那這份是容許我們後面的出入規程再來處理那文字的部分是能夠因為精神都已經包含在裡面是能維持我們的願版那詹雅琳委員的部分"},{"start":7487.266,"end":7513.716,"text":"呃,包含,呃,選手的權益以及,呃,教練的證照這些都基本上都已經,還有那個協會的良善治理這部分呢,我們其實都已經納入在我們的法條裡面。至於督導的部分,至於協會的督導的部分,我們當時是想用輔導的字眼比較柔性啦,那要加上監督督導,我們其實尊重沒有,這個沒有意見。那在,呃,"},{"start":7517.827,"end":7528.003,"text":"運動場館種類的部分因為考量我們現在運動社是場館大部分還是朝向綜合型跟共用型居多以免造成文字館或一些空間的浪費這部分是容許我們就不再徵訴"},{"start":7530.253,"end":7548.193,"text":"但是是不是我們可以用附帶決議的方式來取代那陳培毅委員剛剛有提到的運動文化良善治理以及全民運動身心障礙部分我們剛剛應該差不多都已經有先回應了那是不是也容許我這邊就是能夠維持我們的願板那羅廷偉委員講到的"},{"start":7551.423,"end":7575.596,"text":"運動環境的部分那這部分我們當然我們後面在特別他強調的那個電競的部分我們在後面的新興運動裡面也都會在初入規程裡面都會做處理那是維持願板的部分那王振旭委員所提到的身心健康條件的部分那這部分是不是容許我們用附帶決議跟當第一條的健康這個字眼呢是不是一樣附帶決議來進行"},{"start":7578.702,"end":7592.135,"text":"至於說多元運動專業人才的部分,我們當時的確有想到,不過我們怕怪異漏腕了,比方說最近很夯的秦修,他就是專業人員,所以我們是不是就一樣維持多元的運動專業人員這樣的字眼。以上,不知道還有沒有遺漏到。"},{"start":7601.914,"end":7619.148,"text":"好 那個這樣好不好剛剛這個綜合答覆的部分我們這裡面有涉及到可能條文的文字調整包括立法說明的補充以及甚至可以轉化為附帶決議的文字上更為詳細的表述"},{"start":7620.569,"end":7647.085,"text":"那是不是容我呢徵取一點時間因為我們的附帶決議還沒有宣讀那我們附帶決議宣讀完了之後呢我們休息五分鐘那請我們體育署將剛剛各委員您書長所答覆的內容如果要轉換為附帶決議的是不是有一個復稿那讓委員來看一下那我們休息後呢我們再進行第二條看如何去進行處理好不好那我們就先宣讀後休息五分鐘"},{"start":7649.155,"end":7675.976,"text":"考論事項第一案附帶決議一教育部成立目的與機關業務依據教育部組織法第二條業務事項皆與教育目的存有直接關係且在運動部組織法通過後有關體育署之設置以及全民運動、經濟運動等業務已自教育部轉移至運動部至於依照現行法規各級學校專任運動教練拼任管理辦法專任運動教練原本隸屬於教育部管轄"},{"start":7676.596,"end":7701.841,"text":"未來運動部成立後若仍然隸屬教育部是否還需要再設教育部體育司如此不僅業務執掌混亂亦失去了設立運動部希望達到推廣運動教育及競技運動發展的利益在事務上選手養成的過程中無論是體育班專任運動教練或基層訓練站業務皆直接關係選手的選拔、培訓、比賽與輔導而選訓、賽服四大面向"},{"start":7705.682,"end":7731.608,"text":"則與新成立的運動部業務相符依據行政院運動部組織法第二條第四項所列顯示運動部掌理業務系競技運動發展與選手之培育選拔、獎勵、輔導、生涯發展及權益保障教練與多元運動專業人才之培育增能、認證、聘用之規劃推動、管理及監督據此在運動部成立與教育部組織法修法後專業運動教練的主管機關"},{"start":7733.268,"end":7750.163,"text":"因立屬於新成立的運動部較為妥適同時體育競技為高度專業領域未來運動部的行政人員與教練選手間必須溝通流暢觀念相符故政府在行政人員任用上應任用具基本"},{"start":7750.503,"end":7752.486,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":7765.748,"end":7781.125,"text":"附帶決議二有關軍運動部組織架構之規劃你將原本規劃中的全民運動司直接擴大編制員而改設全民運動署基於我國運動的長遠發展與其成立全民運動署不如改為競技運動署對我國國際賽事選手之培訓選才等較有幫助因為"},{"start":7788.132,"end":7809.491,"text":"若是設立全民運動署．將導致更多經費用於推廣全民運動．供一般民眾休閒與娛樂所用。全民運動之推廣固然重要．然運動部成立的目的應兼具國家經濟運動選手之培訓．經費挹注之權衡．運動部必須審慎思考．我們不希望新的運動部只是增加經費．"},{"start":7810.752,"end":7835.869,"text":"給非亞奧運項目等單項協會使用,重點是我們的競技運動選手要有更好的培訓、選拔、比賽、輔導的環境,才能讓更多有潛能的選手被發掘,競技運動員有更好的培訓環境,如此才能讓運動部的成立更有意義。運動部狹下設有全民體育署,其目的在於推動全民運動的參與,"},{"start":7837.13,"end":7862.064,"text":"一設有六個業務司．包括經濟運動司．然而目前學校內除了少數體育班的學生．大部分的普通生並沒有參與校內的經濟運動．若要推廣經濟運動全民化．未來運動部成立後．更應加重視．大多數的普通生．例如擴大舉辦各級的經濟比賽．並從中協助輔導．使能推動全國各級學校積極參與．從校園內推廣經濟運動之全民參與．除此．"},{"start":7866.326,"end":7895.727,"text":"校內的學生社團能提供學生課後有較安全方便的學習場域然而很多社團的教練都是學生自己從校外尋覓若能由政府資助聘請教練一方面使教練的專業性更有保障二來則減輕學生參與經濟運動社團的負擔如此亦能有助於學校推廣全民運動之參與成立運動部獲得社會級大共識但修法過程中應做好相關的配套措施"},{"start":7896.347,"end":7912.12,"text":"其是相關人員的主責機關與業務執掌歸屬若業務重疊將淪為疊床架屋部分機關無所適從故務必要有通盤的考量如何讓運動部在各業務上能一條龍式的垂直整合"},{"start":7912.76,"end":7925.91,"text":"使運動部官員、行政人員到教練、選手能相互溝通、基層所需能有有效解決,為我國運動業務打造更好的環境。提案人委員科智恩、萬美玲、林倩琦宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8275.967,"end":8279.852,"text":"好,我們繼續開會請大家回座好,請大家回座"},{"start":8291.803,"end":8313.112,"text":"那剛剛在休息期間呢也有附帶決議更多的附帶決議提出來那麼也有臨時提案提出來那在這裡先做議程上預作宣告我們待會條文討論到11點的時候我們來處理今天的臨時提案臨時提案好那個臨時提案是不是提出來了"},{"start":8315.253,"end":8316.675,"text":"剛才我們休息時間已經請體育﹖"},{"start":8335.558,"end":8362.7,"text":"教育部跟體育署分別就剛剛十三人次的委員分別就條文文字本身或是附帶決議或者是說文字的條文文字立法說明的部分要做補充那是不是現在請體育署有沒有先做跟委員做一個回應還是委員要再就剛剛的內容的再做詢問的有沒有那請那個體育署文字"},{"start":8365.036,"end":8365.621,"text":"這邊的話就是呃..."},{"start":8367.505,"end":8394.297,"text":"科資院委員的部分我們剛好跟委員這麼討論我們就等一下會有附帶決議的修正文字那陳佩儀委員的部分我們就是跟帕拉競技我們改成身心障礙競技那侯孟楷委員這邊的那個運動體育博物館我們是不是改成運動博物館那名詞是不是運動博物館那在立法說明裡面去就容許我們去提一下就是說這個時程容我們後面做長期的一個研議那"},{"start":8395.865,"end":8413.628,"text":"再來乍林委員的部分,剛剛在設施的部分的種類目前我們還是就是維持就讓乍林委員加這個種類的部分進去。那還有年齡的這個文字還有國家體育運動政策加國家兩個字。"},{"start":8414.657,"end":8436.302,"text":"那那個王振旭委員這邊的提案我們是不是用在那個附帶決議的部分進行那多元運動專業人才的部分因為真的太多因為運動這件事一個多學文修學門的一個部分喔所以怕怪異漏案所以這部分是不是容許我們還是維持專業運動運動專業人才的字眼就可以了還有那個獎勵的部分"},{"start":8438.682,"end":8463.987,"text":"獎勵的部分也是可以加進去這個問題,尊重,謝謝。好,來,剛剛王委員也要舉手發言,還有那個莊委員,先請王委員。好,謝謝主席。針對於本席所提出來這個相關的附帶決議的部分,我們希望在跟協同衛生福利部合作的後面,再加推動並落實健康台灣政策目標,讓我們這個相關的推動可以更明確,以上。好,來,莊委員。"},{"start":8469.984,"end":8484.713,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我想今天在第二條的部分很多委員都有提出附帶決議大家都很在意未來整個運動部對於各單項協會的一個管考這個本席也有提出但是我倒不是針對第二條我是比較針對於整部的一個組織法運動部"},{"start":8491.037,"end":8506.575,"text":"應該更提出更具體的說明跟計劃也就是說未來在整個補助單項協會的時候如何去做管考我相信這個才是一個核心的價值而倒不是在整個單項的一個條文裡面做這樣的一個注意以上這一點我特別提出提醒"},{"start":8507.789,"end":8508.309,"text":"現在請書長做第三輪的回覆。"},{"start":8530.273,"end":8543.505,"text":"剛剛漏掉一個就是我們在第二條的第八款全民全國性的運動團體業務這部分的最後一個事項之協調及監督我們同意加上監督這兩個及監督這三個字以上"},{"start":8546.417,"end":8562.832,"text":"現在因為這邊又陸續接到附帶決議那麼這裡面有涉及到第一條的附帶決議因為我們現在調適在進行第二條那可以稍微倒車回去再處理第一條的附帶決議現在請先宣讀那我們再來處理第二條"},{"start":8565.955,"end":8592.418,"text":"討論事項第一案附帶決議三建於我國各界長年對於各項運動特定體育團體之非議與抨擊以及體育署在對該等體育團體之相關管考與輔導作為未爭理想除有礙運動發展也影響人民對運動主管機關進行相關運動事務治理之信任建請未來運動部因依以下原則強化對於特定體育團體之管考與輔導"},{"start":8593.359,"end":8618.358,"text":"一、完善觀考機制﹐強化檢視其財務管理﹐會員服務及制度透明度。二、強化輔導與支援﹐運動部應建立更完善輔導機制﹐針對仿視體育團體運作中所發現之問題﹐詳實列舉並性其改善﹐促進其內部治理改善。三、建立定期溝通平台﹐邀集各界專家學者及民間團體參與﹐"},{"start":8620.439,"end":8642.011,"text":"針對各體育團體業務推展提供建言並監督運動部對體育團體之輔導與管考作為確保透明性與公正性提案人委員莊瑞雄、吳思瑤、鍾嘉斌。討論事項第一案附帶決議是為落實運動部推動之核心目標配合政府政策提升規律運動人口"},{"start":8643.132,"end":8666.877,"text":"未來需致力於打造多元運動環境．強化選手及運動人才保障．良善治理．皆同衛生福利部合作．嚴禮適合我國國人各身心健康條件之運動建議．並辦理對應之運動課程．提案人委員吳思堯．張雅玲．陳秀寶．陳俊宇．陳培宇．柯志恩宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8671.084,"end":8690.442,"text":"好 我先跟聯席委員會說明一下目前我們因為剛剛第一條已經通過了那因為有個第一條的附帶決議讓他做宣讀大家看一下那另外呢那個有不設定條文的附帶決議有兩案那剛剛也宣讀過了"},{"start":8691.603,"end":8717.9,"text":"是不是針對第二條待會還會有附帶決議提出來也會有條文的文字調整也會有立法說明的補充是不是我們先把第二條先做暫保留讓這些文字都放在各位桌上了我們再回過頭來把第二條的文字立法說明跟附帶決議做一個完整的處理好不好那我們現在先看第三條"},{"start":8720.994,"end":8744.864,"text":"第三條,各提案條文內容均相同。第三條是在處理我們首長、副首長之職稱、官職等及緣額。那麼因為條文已經宣讀過了,請問各位委員,因為第三條條文各版內容均相同,是不是按照行政院版本通過?同意,那我們第三條通過。"},{"start":8747.199,"end":8767.714,"text":"那麼第四條的部分呢也是一樣也各提案文字各提案條文內容文字均相同那也宣讀過了是不是第四條部分我們按照行政院提案通過同意喔好謝謝那接下來我們看第五條"},{"start":8773.188,"end":8801.472,"text":"第五條吼,那有修正動議一份吼。好,第五條呢,又一個修正動議,又一個附帶決議。那還有委員要發言,我們先宣讀那個修正動議,然後再來。啊,宣讀過了吼。附帶決議跟修正動議都宣讀過了。那我們現在開始進行發言。剛剛有看到陳佩玉委員、王振旭委員跟柯子恩委員,來請依序發言。"},{"start":8802.469,"end":8821.242,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們的版本寫的是社全民運動署辦理全民運動業務這邊我們都沒有意見但是我們認為要談的是運動發展現代化形塑全民運動文化那相關的概念其實我們已經多次跟體育署溝通所以等一下還是要麻煩教育部跟體育署說明為什麼不可以這樣寫 謝謝"},{"start":8823.763,"end":8824.223,"text":"韓政協委員發言"},{"start":8850.826,"end":8862.539,"text":"這是另外貴予附帶決議的修正請我們把修正的文字補上去我們待會再處理接下來請柯志仁委員針對第五條第五條我就是做一個附帶決議雖然這邊提這個第五條"},{"start":8865.202,"end":8865.382,"text":"國際運動組織法草案案"},{"start":8884.346,"end":8890.89,"text":"那運動部成立後應該是重視這90%的學生競技運動啦可以辦理這個分級的運動會給一般學生參加但是全國學校動起來當然從學校開始才有辦法推動所謂的競技運動全民化那你如果說是全民運動署好像你會把現有非亞奧運項目的投入去發展全民運動這其實上並不會帶動整個國家的競技運動的提升啊你反而把很多的機會放在一般老百姓的一些休閒活動啊"},{"start":8914.085,"end":8924.211,"text":"你確定有沒有辦法真正提高整個競技運動的一個水平還是只是讓一般的民眾有更多的休閒運動而已我覺得這個部分真的要重新來做考量那目前全民組管理非亞奧運項目這些單項協會在專業的競技運動裡面其實並非是專業的競技運動專業的人才所以我個人提了一個負擔決議請審慎的考量如果要推廣這個競技運動全民的話"},{"start":8942.582,"end":8947.375,"text":"應該是要設立競技運動署而不是全民體育署這是我的想法 謝謝"},{"start":8948.407,"end":8974.946,"text":"好,謝謝柯子恩委員。事實上在我們本案進行主條的一開始,外媒林委員他是提案人,他有一個提案說明,他也是有一個第五條的文字,他是設運動產業發展局,而且他有附上了組織法。那我們是不是請國民黨黨團助理通知一下外媒林委員,如果要處理第五條的部分有沒有要補充意見,請其他共同聯署的委員幫忙講。"},{"start":8975.566,"end":9000.938,"text":"那現在呢我們因為剛剛有先預告到11點的時候呢我們就來處理今天的臨時提案請將今天的臨時提案呢發給我們各位委員那我們先做處理主席不好意思我這邊那個問委員因為他現在當召委我知道我剛剛先預告了所以我說有保留時間了待會就是換你了好臨時提案處理完就換你了來臨時提案是不是拿到了各位手上是不是都拿到臨時提案了好請宣讀"},{"start":9006.032,"end":9024.025,"text":"禮實提案一略以建請行政院研議新增11月24日為臺灣棒球紀念日以紀念臺灣棒球運動所開創之全新里程碑並配合運動部成立除了宣示精準意助相應資源促進運動發展外更期盼"},{"start":9024.986,"end":9047.429,"text":"借台灣棒球紀念日將國人之激勵與感動,延續並擴散至各運動項目及選手於國際舞台上盡情揮灑,讓世界看見台灣。提案人委員吳思瑤、聯署人委員陳俊宇、張雅琳、吳佩奕、莊瑞雄、鍾嘉斌、陳培宇宣讀完畢。好,請問提案委員有無補充說明。"},{"start":9048.032,"end":9072.044,"text":"好我補充說明一下因為今天特別難得司法法制跟教育文化委員會聯席我們審議的就是運動部的組織法那我們這個臨時提案當然我們也希望可以在立法院的院會去提但是因為院會這一周在審議考試院的相關的人事同意權的審查所以我想藉由我們司法法制委員會今天運動部組織法的審議的這個當下提出這樣一個臨時提案我想"},{"start":9077.005,"end":9107.005,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":9107.005,"end":9131.578,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":9135.424,"end":9157.54,"text":"有沒有那個部長或次長?現在我們在處理臨時提案。謝謝委員的一個提案,我們這個可以尊重。好。那行政機關沒有意見。來,尊重啦。那請問在場委員對於今日的提案有沒有要再補簽的請到台前來,有沒有其他意見?"},{"start":9159.059,"end":9179.688,"text":"那如果沒有其他不同意見,我們臨時提案就修正後通過,取第一段跟第三段,第二段拿掉。那麼修正後通過,謝謝。好,謝謝大家。好,現在我們再回過頭來繼續我們第五條的審議。那第五條呢,因為有萬美玲提案委員,她的版本當中有一些特別的部分,那我們請那個林倩琦委員做說明。"},{"start":9180.632,"end":9195.777,"text":"主席好各位同仁大家好那我這邊來幫外委員委員他針對第五條的這個提案那也是本黨有一些委員也認為在運動發展上運動產業是很重要的一個支撐的平台"},{"start":9196.437,"end":9206.882,"text":"現在我們看到這次這個棒球的比賽我們能夠有這麼好的成績那除了各界的投入、請搜等等那運動產業的支持其實在整個對運動員的支撐是最實質的一個平台那所以在這個部分目前組織架構裡面我們希望能夠增加一個運動產業發展局"},{"start":9217.968,"end":9222.193,"text":"則不僅僅僅我們現有這個組織架構裡面這樣蠻單薄的一個架構組織所以這邊是我幫萬有緣這邊還有本黨委員所提出來的運動產業發展局這邊做一個補充希望"},{"start":9237.233,"end":9238.433,"text":"請問各位委員對於第五條有沒有來請吳培宇委員"},{"start":9265.522,"end":9270.883,"text":"第五條,剛剛針對克茲恩委員提出的附帶決議,我有一些意見,因為我認為這一次運動部的成立,全民運動署其實是重中之重,因為過去我們一直在討論,除了競技體育非常重要之外,包含了我們的社區體育、兒少體育、俱樂部體育,還有我一直很重視的多次跟體育署召開公聽座談會的"},{"start":9292.888,"end":9302.596,"text":"新興運動包括街舞、滑板霹靂舞而相近進入當中只有霹靂舞是屬於競技運動其他街舞都叫全民運動那這就是未來我們"},{"start":9304.505,"end":9324.337,"text":"新的運動部成立全民運動署很重要要來協助推廣的全民體育所以我是認為全民運動所成立非常重要那我們應該是競技跟全民運動通通都要並進才一起來去讓我們全台灣國人的運動的風氣可以整體來提升謝謝"},{"start":9327.674,"end":9348.375,"text":"好 那麼因為在場的秩序主席這邊跟聯席委員會說明我們處理一下我們第五條先處理條文文字那再來討論附帶決議好不好那先接下來要發言委員是要討論第五條的條文文字還是要對於那個柯真委員的附帶決議要有所表示意見附帶委員有意見"},{"start":9349.431,"end":9375.607,"text":"好 那麼對於第五條的文字內容剛剛因為林倩琦委員已經代外門林委員的表達了那這裡跟委員聯繫委員說明一下目前行政院版本它是用它是產業發展的是用行政法人的方式放在後面我們要審查的設置條例啊草案啊所以是不是請各位我們衡量剛剛一個是放在"},{"start":9376.844,"end":9395.744,"text":"運動部組織法第五條增列第二款設一個產業發展局另外一個就是目前院版的規劃是放在國家運動產業發展中心設置條例草案這我們待會後續會審到那麼就第五條部分請委員會表示意見"},{"start":9397.799,"end":9412.353,"text":"王委員好主席謝謝第五條的部分我們還是期待把這個全民健康跟運動之間有更好的連結所以在最後希望能夠透過行促運動文化同時促進全民健康以上"},{"start":9415.461,"end":9415.961,"text":"第五條保留吳世耀委員"},{"start":9438.5,"end":9454.209,"text":"我是建議第五條是支持院版那因為如果要新設其他的這個司署局這個在後面會審議到的條例再來處理那因為第五條我們focus是全民運動為主題啦"},{"start":9456.67,"end":9472.361,"text":"那我個人我一併來論述我非常支持我們就是要有全民運動署我對於剛剛志恩委員的附帶決議他的整個思維我想剛好正是我們為什麼要全民運動署來翻轉傳統的思維我並不認為我們要做的是競技運動全民化"},{"start":9480.467,"end":9500.157,"text":"我們要做的是全民運動是一軌競技運動是未來運動發展部的另外一軌所以競技運動是去拔尖的去參加賽會的但是全民運動全民體育是從國人的健康下手而且能夠連帶的促進健康之外能夠提振我們的運動產業"},{"start":9501.698,"end":9523.215,"text":"所以說知恩委員的這個附帶決議我基本上是在思維上恰恰是相反所以我沒有辦法支持那我也呼籲大家就全民健康的角度全民運動要深化過去是輕全民運動重競技運動不管在預算上政策上都是失衡的"},{"start":9523.715,"end":9543.928,"text":"所以未來的運動部願意就全民運動有一個專利的署來推動全民運動我認為這就是一個正確的選擇也是正確的政策方向所以呼籲大家這個條文保留這個就會我是覺得就是如果在場的委員多數大家同意我們就是支持全民"},{"start":9545.435,"end":9574.753,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9574.813,"end":9602.569,"text":"他其實是可以支持那個整個全民運動的一個發展我們也可以從實際的狀況裡面看到另外一個條例才是對的好來那個請陳佩玉委員然後再來吳佩玉委員我想要呼應那個幹事吳思雅幹事長的建議喔主要是如果你要設一個局的話是不是可以在相關的後續的組織條例裡面我們再來處理因為這個第五條其實談的就是我們有了運動部之後新設一個署所以是不是可以拜託縣行委員如果"},{"start":9603.77,"end":9619.929,"text":"問美林委員他現在當召委可不可以跟他私訊一下問他可不可以接受我們在後續的組織條例裡面在組織條例裡面去釋合因為如果你現在就要把產業發展局放下來那是不是所有的局都一併納入這個母法這樣寫這個法律上的寫法怪怪的啦謝謝"},{"start":9623.066,"end":9649.121,"text":"好那趁這個空檔時間那先吳佩儀委員這個主席我是希望說因為今天版本非常多然後又大家一直提出修正動議、附帶決議等等如果只要有一個人意見不同就要保留今天沒辦法討論了那我現在看因為我認為剛剛這個林建勤委員戴萬美里委員說明的內容其實跟現在第五條全民運動署並沒有抵觸啊所以我希望第五條還是先把它通過那其他有其他的想法我們在後面都還可以再討論"},{"start":9650.985,"end":9677.111,"text":"好 謝謝我這裡先做一個說明因為現在我們陸續這邊收到很多的附帶決議那因為剛剛第二條呢因為有先暫保留目的是為了條文文字修載的時候有的要改為附帶決議所以待會如果我們在進行條文審議的時候除非是涉及到文字要改為附帶決議不然我們附帶決議呢就留在最後面再來處理那我們在最後面再一併宣讀那現在還是就第五條的條文文字本身來進行討論請來鄭天才委員"},{"start":9684.08,"end":9709.171,"text":"我沒有想到今天的審查的方式跟以往不太一樣。這個條文先審完,然後再去處理臨時提案,再去處理附帶結議,這樣才是一個正常的一個程序。所以這個部分,我沒有想到說這個竟然現在開會開到這麼久,現在才在第五條。"},{"start":9710.934,"end":9718.078,"text":"那第五條裡面當然有不同的想法認為要這個要成立產業發展局"},{"start":9719.943,"end":9745.667,"text":"那這個行政院的版本或其他委員的版本是用行政法人或是透過其他的方式成立中心、機構的方式是可以討論的部分。然後這個部分就像我們的條文現在有沒有全部,前面是不是都通過了?"},{"start":9747.065,"end":9772.748,"text":"除了報告那個委員除了第二條文字還在調整對阿其他都通過了阿所以不要這樣馬上就說就影響了整個不是不是他所謂的保留不是說整個整個要保留不是阿暫保留啦暫保留而已啦所以不要馬上就做不同的用切一些如果說前面的條文全部都通過了那我接受"},{"start":9774.63,"end":9777.091,"text":"我也沒想到今天會審查,審這麼久了。教育部以前我來說了,體育這個機構不是,這個機關不是第一次成立啦。我也沒想到會討論這麼久。以前也成立一級機關,體委會過啊。"},{"start":9800.483,"end":9819.153,"text":"對不對?哎呦那是我第一條的光第一條的文字大家討論那麼久的我很訝異啦曾經也是體委會後來變體育署現在體育署要變成運動部大家都支持我們是不是能夠怎麼樣能夠加快我是建議召委我現在建議召委怎麼樣加快啦好不好"},{"start":9825.08,"end":9851.157,"text":"政見代委員,我們剛剛第二條有十三人次發言,您不在的時候我們有進行充分的討論,十三人次。那關於第五條的部分,因為我們第二條暫保留,那第五條是不是也先暫保留,我們回過頭來一併從二條再五條再處理好不好,因為沒有爭議的,大致相同的版本我們就比較快處理,那我們現在第五條先暫保留,我們現在請看第六條,"},{"start":9854.666,"end":9880.435,"text":"那第六條呢其實呢大致的內容都相同第六條在處理的是我們為了因應業務需要得派員住境外辦事這是第六條大致的內容請問各位委員我們第六條是不是依行政院版的部分大家來參酌是否同意好那如果大家沒有意見我們第六條就叫行政院版通過"},{"start":9881.547,"end":9907.475,"text":"好,接下來呢,我們看第七條。第七條呢,它處理的是關於一級單位的主管得必要時用專科以上學校的副教授、教授、退休輔助、比較教師,這是第七條精神。那各版本的內容呢,大致是一致的。那請問各位委員,我們第七條的部分,是不是以行政院版本參照來進行處理?好,同意。"},{"start":9907.964,"end":9928.895,"text":"好,那我們第7條請問按照行政院版通過有異議?沒有。好,我們第7條按照行政院版通過。那麼第8條的部分呢?有修正動議吼。那麼第8條在處理本部加運動部及所屬機關業務需要得聘用專業人員。那又有修正動議吼,我們讓修正人員先宣讀要先處理。請宣讀。"},{"start":9930.856,"end":9955.805,"text":"修正動議六對照行政院提案條文第八條增訂第二項為前項禁用人才具原住民身份者不得低於百分之十五提案人委員林倩琦、吳春晨、盧廷瑋宣讀完畢。好,針對修正動議大家是不是拿到了,拿到手上了?有齁,那我們來請那個政見台委員發言。"},{"start":9958.151,"end":9986.1,"text":"好 這個第8條的條文我的這個提案我的提案在128頁128頁大家請參閱這個我特別在第8條裡面規定就是說本部及所屬機關為運動發展多元化禁用人才得依聘用人員聘用條例之規定聘用運動相關領域專業人才"},{"start":9988.141,"end":10006.647,"text":"我特別增加第二項前項禁用人才據原住民身份者不得低於20%那剛才林倩琦的臨時提案是寫15%請大家能夠支持這個比例是不是能夠把它列進去那這樣比例大家可以討論以上各位委員手上有兩張應該都是針對第八條啦針對第八條是不是"},{"start":10017.73,"end":10022.018,"text":"這個寫第九條。這是第九條。好,第八條。好,來,請務在委員發言。"},{"start":10023.463,"end":10047.858,"text":"我是希望不要針裂這個修正同意所提我們對於所有運動人才的把著是不分族群不分世代那我想原住民族的朋友們都深具運動的專業跟能力他們也能夠在現有的聘用人員聘用條例裡頭來獲得禁用所以我是真的認為不宜放這樣子的一個條文"},{"start":10049.199,"end":10077.944,"text":"不管比例是百分之二十或百分之十五我也理解天才委員跟欠期委員要為援助民族的朋友來發聲但是我正因為相信他們的運動專業跟能力他們沒有這樣的保障也是能夠獲得禁用國家為國舉財不分族群所以是真的希望不要有這樣的修正動力但是體育署也好大家都會知道未來對於八族人才在"},{"start":10078.524,"end":10078.544,"text":" ﹝討論中﹞"},{"start":10104.742,"end":10126.868,"text":"在我們這次院版的第一條裡面就有文字是落實多元平權所以我想多元平權包括人才的禁用應當就是在我們的精神當中那我要附議剛剛吳思堯委員所提我是不太贊成在條文裡面直接針對特定的族群或身份訂定比例因為如果要這樣的話"},{"start":10127.748,"end":10127.948,"text":"陳培鈺委員"},{"start":10150.394,"end":10175.463,"text":"這個之所以會列這樣的條文事實上從過去的體委會到現在的這個體育署過去體委會還有原住民的公務人員還有還會去禁用那相關現在既然現在要改為運動部然後特別過去的體委會或是體育署並沒有這條條文"},{"start":10177.644,"end":10205.355,"text":"可以用聘用人員沒有這樣的條文所以我才特別針對因為大家都認為會用會用其實都沒有如果我們看這一次的這個中華中華隊24名的選手裡面28名28名的選手裡面有二分之一14位是原住民而這14位原住民裡面"},{"start":10207.631,"end":10221.805,"text":"有其中一位有很長的時間都沒有工作很長時間沒有工作所以這個部分這個就是有沒有善用有沒有真正去落實"},{"start":10224.239,"end":10251.568,"text":"還是只有靠關係所以我們才會堅持要去定這個比例所以這個部分請大家能夠支持因為原住民的運動人才真的很多而這些運動人才我這邊是第8條是這樣定針對不需要公務人員利用資格的下一條需要公務人員利用資格的"},{"start":10252.608,"end":10270.118,"text":"我們也要定比例為什麼呢我要跟大家報告過去考試院院長姚嘉文當過考試院院長他就很重視原住民的機用他會去協調主動協調相關的部會"},{"start":10273.652,"end":10300.709,"text":"去提報切爾到原住民行政特考像橋委會他竟然能夠去協調也禁用原住民透過原住民行政特考只要報切爾他就禁用橋委會跟我們原住民沒有關係他都可以這樣子做所以我請大家能夠支持真正要支持運動就支持原住民的體育人才以上"},{"start":10302.348,"end":10323.372,"text":"請陳佩玉委員發言,然後吳子耀委員。好,謝謝主席。那我非常尊重林委員過往一直為原住民族爭取各式各樣的權益。我過往自己住在花蓮十幾年,也非常多原住民朋友,其實對於台灣的整個行政機關,對於原住民相關的權益、經費跟預算,始終有增加,其實大家是非常有感的。"},{"start":10323.712,"end":10346.69,"text":"但是我想要提醒林委員其實在我們現有的法規叫做原住民族工作權保障法裡面第四條跟第五條就有明白的規定各級政府機關、公立學校、公營事業機構裡面因僱用之原住民族人數比例其實已經有相關規定了但是我想林委員身為一個立法委員絕對知道這個相關的辦法"},{"start":10348.792,"end":10370.841,"text":"那後續的監督在體育署升格為運動部之後他們確實也必須要遵守這個法規那如同您剛剛舉的例子不管是您過往說的考試院或者是僑委會我相信他們都是在這個法規底下去做到聘用援助民族相關人數的規定那如果您認為在有一些公部門的行政機關他對於"},{"start":10372.042,"end":10374.885,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":10387.039,"end":10415.811,"text":""},{"start":10415.891,"end":10433.525,"text":"好,接下來請吳世耀委員發言。我想還是再次表達我反對用比例來針對特定族群來框定他一定要禁用的人員。如果以未來運動部可能300位左右的員額,如果是15%就45位,如果20%可能就60位。"},{"start":10438.035,"end":10457.011,"text":"那如果沒有足夠的原住民族的人來能夠通過聘任人員條例的相關資格的話那是不是那個缺就一直在那裡淡無人?好那第二個事情是為國舉財真的是用人為財不分族群啊"},{"start":10458.232,"end":10476.983,"text":"因為我也會我們長期在教育文化領域那像文化基本法也好文化藝術講注條例也好文創法也好我們也知道原住民族的朋友們對於文化藝術類也是非常有天分跟能力的但如果這樣的話所有的文化人才的禁用也一定要框定一定比例"},{"start":10477.603,"end":10479.144,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查。"},{"start":10497.06,"end":10524.795,"text":"你新住民的要放嗎?我是覺得,你的合議運動署,替原住民族的發聲,但是入法強制比例人員的禁用,這某種程度也是對於其他的具有同樣的專業能力的有資格成為國家公務同仁的年輕世代們並不公平,因為"},{"start":10525.535,"end":10527.996,"text":"二十九）一、繼續併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":10545.845,"end":10549.887,"text":"如果這一條沒有共識,要不然就先暫保留。"},{"start":10573.576,"end":10576.778,"text":"主席有提到一個是說是不是可以用附帶決議來呈現法律條文所不能夠隨時與時俱進調整的。"},{"start":10594.026,"end":10608.325,"text":"這次世界棒球十二強28名隊員當中十三名是原住民的身份十四十三或十四那麼顯然這個百分之十五又訂得太低啊如果以這個標準來應該訂百分之五十啊"},{"start":10608.866,"end":10626.119,"text":"但是改天又有一個奧運那我們又有女子運動員表現的金牌數假如說多於男子運動員那我們可能多元禁用那要不要定一個比例女性要佔60%然後其他的才給其他性別就會有這樣的一個"},{"start":10627.08,"end":10646.306,"text":"法律條文如果要反映出各該時期臺灣在世界體壇上的各項成績表現那這個比例要怎麼去算顯然不是按照人口而是按照他的表現那表現的話哪些賽事的表現要記錄所以是不是體育署可以針對我們剛正天才委員的用意"},{"start":10646.946,"end":10647.286,"text":"在民國九十年"},{"start":10674.347,"end":10687.614,"text":"楊仁福立法委員提出原住民族工作權保障法的時候,當時提出這個條文這個法例的時候,行政機關的答覆就像剛才陳委員跟吳思堯委員所答覆的一模一樣。"},{"start":10704.444,"end":10732.924,"text":"這是第一個第二個當時原住民的立委堅持所有立法院就支持了原住民立委的條文所以通過了而這個比例剛講的那個比例第一個它主要是針對原住民組第七了無論是未來的運動部還是什麼機構都不會在原住民組第七了"},{"start":10733.925,"end":10755.355,"text":"然後很重要他是針對技工工友這些集結隊定了一些比例所以沒有辦法用在未來的運動部或是這個底下的署或是其他的所設的中心"},{"start":10756.374,"end":10774.377,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10775.399,"end":10786.007,"text":"讓原住民的一個比例能夠訂進去。至於比例多少是可以討論的。初期你要訂得很低,我們可以討論。以上。"},{"start":10790.578,"end":10811.374,"text":"我是不是說先請我們機關代表先就剛剛幾位委員的意見先以附帶決議方式來試擬那我們這一條先保留因為第九條也是有類似的情況那如果擬出來了大家覺得或許在立法說明或者在條文文字或者在附帶決當中能夠反映出畢竟運動這個項目各個領域這邊也多元禁用了"},{"start":10816.175,"end":10841.821,"text":"那多元是用性別分?用族群分?按照高海胖瘦分?還是用什麼項目分?這個怎麼樣去反映出競用的人才能夠反映出他們在各領域的成績表現?這個我們來思考看好不好?那我們這一條先暫保留進行第九條。喂?嘿嘿。嘿我真的。好好我看先。好好我先看。好好好OK好。"},{"start":10843.666,"end":10859.173,"text":"那個第九條的部分我們是不是先讓委員來表示,那個修正動議的部分還沒宣讀嘛,宣讀過了齁,那麼修正動議的部分也是類同啦,那是不是就第九條的部分有沒有要表示發言的,來請吳政要委員。"},{"start":10860.365,"end":10879.905,"text":"第八條跟第九條其實這個體育署可以回應一下這裡所要聘任的不管是用聘用人員人事條例或者是第九條進入各職稱的官等、職等等等其實他的職務類別他所禁用的人才其實是文官"},{"start":10881.628,"end":10884.43,"text":"是我們運動發展部這些就是我們這個公務頭人體系裡頭他可能要具備的是相關公務人員的相關的法令對於政策的理解那相關的法規這是他基本的用人的專業導向"},{"start":10900.683,"end":10927.713,"text":"不必然因為他是運動部他就是這些文官他是要運動強項他是要運動很優異的人這是完全不一樣的其實剛剛主席雖然舉了台灣隊的這個棒球隊員的比例其實運動的項目也非常多啊不是只有棒球嘛還有很多的類別也許不必然是某一個族群特別擅長的"},{"start":10928.817,"end":10954.211,"text":"對不對?而且我們這裡拔絕的不是運動員這是文官體制的人才禁用所以在前面的條文已經講到要多元禁用不同的人才他的導向是專業而不是族群如果我們看到第九條就更清楚的可以知道在處理這都是文官的禁用國家有國家的公務人員的禁用的體力嘛有機制嘛"},{"start":10955.111,"end":10983.99,"text":"真的不應當在任何一個部會的條文裏面針對特異族群來進行比例的禁用人員的框定這不是運動員吶所以還是以專業資格視財視所用人為財的角度否則這整個公務體系以後這個沒完沒了啦所以還是要說服一下提案的委員這是文官的禁用"},{"start":10985.128,"end":10987.588,"text":"這是一個公平禁用國家文官體制的公平公正性一定要捍衛"},{"start":11014.841,"end":11041.175,"text":"好 來我們鄭委員請發言這個是文官我非常清楚我也是文官出身的所以體育署或是過去的體委會未來的運動部他禁用人他就是體育人才為主啦他的相關的科系他考試"},{"start":11043.854,"end":11066.14,"text":"他去考試也是,而不是把一般其他的隨便都可以進去。他本來禁用的時候他就有他的列科跟他的科系本來就會去考量。所以這個部分他去考當然他必須要符合這個考試的資格條件。"},{"start":11070.376,"end":11095.029,"text":"所以這個部分如果說目前沒有切了我才後面有一個有出切的時候那禁用的時候當然是要符合這個無論是現在體育署或是為了運動部首席的這些列科科系這不是說隨便可以禁用不是啊他還是要符合相關的資格條件"},{"start":11096.46,"end":11125.089,"text":"所以這個部分這個如果按照剛才的思維大家就會奇怪為什麼還要有原住民行政特考那就高考補考就好了吧你要知道從國民政府大家所稱的國民政府時代就開始有以前叫山地行政特考為什麼要有就是要培育原住民的人才我跟大家說明"},{"start":11126.543,"end":11153.657,"text":"過去對於原住民的運動人才的培育或是就業有非常好的做法現在就欠缺了我們有很多的運動人才喔運動人才拿過很多金牌的都當教授都能夠培育他去當教授"},{"start":11154.741,"end":11178.649,"text":"因為很多的大學也有體育系、體育大學也有教練也需要有教授的資格都會去培育所以這個部分透過這樣的一個法律的制度的建立才有機會被培育才有機會被任用所以這個部分這個比例可以討論如果認為可以這個太高"},{"start":11183.677,"end":11186.217,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":11210.362,"end":11226.66,"text":"大家都以為今天大家對運動部的成立是有很高的共識不過呢剛剛第二條第五條我們暫保留那是不是第八條第九條我們暫保留我們把第十條先處理我們再回過來一起看好讓大家了解一下說我們今天有我們的時間"},{"start":11227.501,"end":11252.08,"text":"如果希望運動部能夠趕快的掛牌上路包括他三個行政法人都能夠盡速的去運作包括教育部也能夠重新的開始來應對體育署之後的後體育署時代那我們要趕快保護時間那是不是第九條我們先暫保留我們看第十條那麼第十條的部分目前有吳佩儀委員的提案那麼跟"},{"start":11254.998,"end":11261.708,"text":"吳美媛提了第十條,那麼第十條是不是就,行政院有沒有意見?"},{"start":11266.022,"end":11283.79,"text":"第10條我的意見是因為這次運動部成立我們也有諮詢小組那也有來自民間的意見那像這次這個陳介憲他也是區議員公會的理事長所以我是希望這樣子民間諮詢的機制可以把它持續常態化那我希望就把它改成附帶決議然後給未來的運動部做執行上面的參考"},{"start":11292.554,"end":11304.943,"text":"好,那麼請問大家對於第十條如果以吳佩玉委員的版本來通過是否同意?好,那我們就不採納,不予採納,好。那我們現在呢就回過頭來,那麼第十條"},{"start":11314.298,"end":11336.732,"text":"院板的第十條那院板第十條請問大家是否依行政院板來通過同意同意好同意那麼第十條我們就要行政院板通過抱歉那因為要回過頭來看第二條那第二條是不是有行政機關有會整好各位委員的綜合意見後的文字修正第二條的部分"},{"start":11348.575,"end":11354.142,"text":"來,有沒有?剛剛有沒有?我看這邊還沒有收到。目前?目前沒有?"},{"start":11365.509,"end":11390.107,"text":"那還是我們第二條其實我剛聽了一下十三人次的發言其實第二條對於執掌的部分大家都希望能夠讓他充實的更豐富但是呢也不排除行政院版的內容大概可以涵蓋但是希望能夠在附帶決議上面予以強調那麼是我同意我們第二條的部分按照行政院版通過然後我們以附帶決議的方式來補充"},{"start":11392.579,"end":11393.76,"text":"第二條本部長禮下列事項"},{"start":11408.973,"end":11434.085,"text":"第一款國家運動政策加國家兩個字與法規之原理規劃推動管理及監督OK嗎?我們看第二款身心條件性別加上頓號年齡以及族群區域以及社會經濟地位各面向多元運動平權之規劃推動輔導管理及監督OK嗎?第三款適應運動發展"},{"start":11436.806,"end":11457.19,"text":"身心障礙禁忌與共融運動之規劃推動輔導管理與監督第四款沒有修訂第五款無第六款沒有修訂第七款我們看到一下他這裡寫的運動設施發展與運動場館之新整建及永續營運運動設施與場館之種類分級統籌運用與友善"},{"start":11466.445,"end":11479.852,"text":"應動環境之規劃推動管理及監督。OK嗎?那我們看第八款。全國性運動團體業務健全發展與良善治理之促進及輔導相關機關構團體運動發展事項之協調及監督。"},{"start":11487.674,"end":11506.62,"text":"有監督了齁,再往下看,我們第九、第十都一樣。好,那麼這樣的一個部分,來陳秀寶委員。那個署長,剛才我跟您這邊溝通的是關於第八條,全國性運動團體業務健全發展與良善治理之促進輔導及監督。是放在這邊。對。報告主席,就是那個及監督的字把它改到前段。"},{"start":11517.045,"end":11517.486,"text":"主席"},{"start":11531.616,"end":11536.961,"text":"來主席我剛剛兩個部分吼就是我們也認為說對於運動選手或是多元運動平權的獎勵的部分剛剛其實很多委員其實也都講到但是目前好像沒有看到獎勵的部分就把它放進來"},{"start":11554.316,"end":11569.886,"text":"尤其是全民運動部分有一些單項不管是單項或全民運動我想還是有獎勵的一個性質所在這第一個那第二個就是本席有提出來是說這個所謂的運動博物館或運動紀念館的部分那到目前為止還是沒有我想我們剛剛在"},{"start":11571.247,"end":11587.868,"text":"中間溝通的部分也有但我認為是說入法他是一個明確的一個宣示那我並沒有要求說一定要新建管設或者是說原有的管設來去做修改或者是說結合大型的場館來去做增設因為有很多譬如說"},{"start":11589.304,"end":11614.124,"text":"網球迷都知道甲子園板城湖的這個球場甲子園它其實裡面就有一個甲子園也好的這個棒球的一個紀念館廳那所以說其實我們也可以未來在規劃大型的運動場館的時候我們就把這個運動博物館的概念給放進去但是能夠入法我想這才是可以永久的保存我們所有人對於"},{"start":11615.265,"end":11637.78,"text":"中華隊對於我們臺灣選手的一個想像跟這個獎勵的一個措施所以這一點要求要有入法好不好謝謝好謝謝第7款裡面有關的話這是好那我們吳思耀委員然後我們再請那個運動部提議署說明剛剛侯孟楷委員講的第二第二款在我是建議應當放獎勵OK所以應當是放在輔導頓耗獎勵有輔導然後獎勵"},{"start":11643.612,"end":11671.446,"text":"然後管理及監督好不好這個是可以放的所以孟凱的那個我覺得放在輔導後面然後呢至於運動博物館這件事情大家都非常期待也支持但我們可以看到他第十款其實就有其他有關運動之事項嘛那有關運動之事項是什麼其實要不然在那個立法說明裡面來加注就好好不好在立法孟凱委員"},{"start":11672.796,"end":11695.234,"text":"你那個部分是第十款其實只有其他有關運動之事項然後請那個他們在立法說明裡頭補充運動相關事項有什麼就如運動博物館之新建設置嗎因為對放在那個立法說明裡面我們讓那個教育部說明一下好不好來教育部請"},{"start":11696.388,"end":11697.869,"text":"在法裡面講推動運動博物館可以吧?"},{"start":11724.485,"end":11728.662,"text":"行政部門同意入法了啦,現在是要,你們要說服吳志耀委員啦。"},{"start":11730.083,"end":11758.061,"text":"第五款。第五款裏面。我補充一下。運動文化記憶之保存及在線分號推動運動博物館。成立。成立。然後在立法說明裏面去提說。先秀在螢幕上。那是起承的問題啦。就是說給法過母法過了。但是因為這個運動部有很多編制在增加。附帶決議可以嗎?附帶決議其實也可以啦。如果要入法的話就是推動。多一個推動。立法說明還要再函送這個。"},{"start":11759.668,"end":11780.881,"text":"這個沒有問題啊,不是啊,你就是把你剛剛講的,署長剛剛講的這個部分文字我是同意啊,就是說推動運動博物館,好不好。放在第一段的後面,就是文化記憶之保存及再現的後面是不是這意思?對。那先把文字放上去,我們請協助一下,推動運動。"},{"start":11783.603,"end":11785.545,"text":"那我建議國家運動博物館制推動"},{"start":11816.301,"end":11835.012,"text":"我們的期待其實它就是一個國家對出去的概念的一個收集我也不是說單項喔就今天就說值得我們共同留下來保存的部分那那個地方可以變成是我們全台2350萬人共同以後也許校外教學也都可以去那邊看從"},{"start":11836.733,"end":11849.048,"text":"我們地面銅牌、地面銀牌、地面金牌、中華隊的任何的東西也都可以去看。然後還有就故事性、歷史性、意義。那沒有說一定是新設哪一個館場。"},{"start":11850.438,"end":11875.499,"text":"我還是再次強調因為有人講是說是不是要在哪一個地方要改不一定這個就讓我們自己去組織去規劃也許是可以放在其中未來大型的場地的一個概念裡面其中之一但是我覺得它就是一個國家的運動博物館那我問一下主席我們現在每兩年再辦一次的全國的那個運動博覽會"},{"start":11879.893,"end":11890.599,"text":"對不對我們要有那你運動博覽會要不要放因為任何一個館都是要長期的策展才會有累積你才會有點長"},{"start":11893.311,"end":11921.13,"text":"所以說如果你現在跳到運動博物館之推動我當然也支持我沒有反對我是覺得要入法嗎那如果這樣的話那你每年我們每兩年一次我甚至認為每年都要辦的那個運動博覽會你要不要放運動博覽會之推動因為你唯有每年不斷的去把運動的展演累積累積你才會有未來國家運動博物館的典藏啊這個是文化政策任何一個基本的ABC嘛"},{"start":11924.434,"end":11929.499,"text":"我覺得不需要那麼...那你運動博覽會勒?你沒有運動博覽會怎麼有運動?國家運動體育館不需要這麼...你一定要點點滴滴累積嗎?"},{"start":11941.669,"end":11958.605,"text":"來,待會要請吳佩儀委員發言,我們先處理會議時間。我們上午會議時間繼續進行議程討論事項的處理。好,那麼請吳佩儀委員。好,我還是要請提議署來斟酌博物館是否要入法,因為我們是有博物館法的。"},{"start":11959.826,"end":11982.542,"text":"關於一個博物館的籌備相關的專業你的調研典藏保存維護等等工作我們有法規在規定喔你們未來運動部有這樣的專業嗎這個不是說博覽會放一年就叫做博物館不是博物館有他特定的這個標準你們是否有足夠的專業入法之後我們就以這樣子的標準來檢視喔請那個人事單位來說"},{"start":11990.009,"end":12007.563,"text":"法定職長通常他基本上是一個比較抽象的概念,然後博物館的設置事實上是一個具體的工作項目。所以說我們現在的院版的法定職長裡面事實上就已經有運動、文化、記憶的保存跟再現。那事實上博物館的設置也就可以含括在這樣的一個概念裡面。"},{"start":12008.484,"end":12027.03,"text":"所以建議在法條的部分就是維持現在院版的文字如果認為說有特別需要在博物館的部分做強調的話那事實上用附帶決議來加諸將來運動部必須要去落實這樣的一個工作項目然後在這個原本的運動文化的這個法定執掌的架構之下來處理可能會比較能夠兼顧以上好那麼主席在這邊跟聯席委員會做個懇求因為我們今天討論四項現在在第一案"},{"start":12034.98,"end":12046.337,"text":"那大家都既然對運動有這麼高的期待後面的立法還是要繼續推動是不是我們就求同純意那麼大家有補充的意見的更好的想法的我們可以用附帶決議來推動那條文文字一般來講立法會求其精簡"},{"start":12050.123,"end":12075.885,"text":"那麼在第一項的宗旨第二項的執掌大概都是概括性的描述那剛剛已經經過了一些細緻的補充是不是比較具體的工作事項我們可以以附帶決議的方式來呈現那麼請教在場委員是否我們同意第二條的文字內容剛剛除了運動博物館之推動之外其他的各款的文字修正可以看一下有沒有什麼問題"},{"start":12083.683,"end":12109.668,"text":"如果保留的話今天運動部的我是希望說今天我們大家呈現出對於全民運動的支持我們對於文字的部分盡量能夠來交給院會我們在委員會裡面盡量形成單一的版本讓院會去做補充好不好因為如果我們在委員會如果就保留的話恐怕"},{"start":12111.441,"end":12135.977,"text":"這個在委員會裡面我們要在牌書時間來處理,會比較辛苦,因為今天本年度是會期是預算年度喔。好不好,那三位委員。主席我有一個小小的部分要提醒體育署這邊要改一下。第三款是因運動發展頓耗身心障礙競技運動。我們要加運動兩個字,之前跟人討論寫法是這樣才會完整。競技運動這樣與共融運動。好,以上謝謝。"},{"start":12141.502,"end":12143.902,"text":"是不是在跟聯席委員會的委員做這樣的請求,好不好?聯席委員會的委員,有有有,我剛有在這在這。"},{"start":12171.698,"end":12197.202,"text":"好因為我們今天是司法法制跟教育文化聯席那所以我們盡量讓聯席委員會的委員大家都有共識啦那是否我們第二條的部分我們剛剛已經在畫面上看過這些文字的補充了就是比較屬於抽象性概念性的執掌的描述那具體的工作"},{"start":12198.712,"end":12217.688,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":12218.882,"end":12238.256,"text":"說實在的話我是第一個提出運動發展部組織法的委員提案委員今天審查的時候行政院版本立案第一我就是第二但我是這一屆裡面再先提出運動發展部組織法所以我絕對支持運動發展部的成立我們也算一下時間這個會期到1月21號"},{"start":12241.318,"end":12266.281,"text":"已經正式的通過草野協商研會到1月21號所以換言之我們還有兩個月左右的時間可以院會處理我絕對沒有要惡意阻擋的意思我也一定希望是說今天都能夠通過但是就是說在於運動博物館的這件事情它其實真的是一件好事我想大家也都同意剛剛無私要委員一開始坐下來也講說都支持嘛"},{"start":12266.901,"end":12287.972,"text":"我們現在只是說就是對於這個推動的過程裡面我們期待的是它真的有一個想像的空間以及就是說真的運動發展部宣布掛牌我們也來啟動所謂的運動博物館或是運動紀念館的一個推動所以這一點我才是會強調是說為什麼我們可以在這個法令上面放上"},{"start":12289.694,"end":12306.013,"text":"運動博物館或運動紀念館的一個設立其實對我來講我覺得說不只是個人其實很多的運動體育前輩也都很期待為什麼因為它就是一個它就是一個精神的象徵跟文化的保留那還有故事的延續"},{"start":12308.017,"end":12328.522,"text":"故事的延續跟精神的延續我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情所以我還是再一次因為剛剛其實體育署長在我們剛剛休息的過程當中已經同意認為而且他也跟不管是陳培宇委員民進黨的委員有提案的也都說明跟我也都說明認為是說這可以把他給入法的"},{"start":12329.008,"end":12339.784,"text":"那我是覺得是說那既然如此的話我們是不是就把它入法那我們後續就請我們運動部成立之後來共同推動我覺得這樣子也沒有什麼不好啊"},{"start":12340.725,"end":12368.58,"text":"好不好,委員大家一起支持,沒什麼不好嘛,好不好?來,第一組說明一下你們有沒有更好的意見,來。是,我想重整兩邊的委員的意見,我想是不是提一個比較中心的顧及體力,又比較屬於抽象文字為主,那是不是容許我們改成運動文化記憶,盾號保存,盾號在線及設施,那我們在附帶決議裡面去來寫這是一個國家運動博物館的一個推動,這樣。"},{"start":12370.168,"end":12370.308,"text":"主席"},{"start":12378.652,"end":12384.117,"text":"好,非常感謝,那我們請大家看一次齁,我們把第二條呢從第一款開始齁,第一項第一款我們看一下齁。"},{"start":12400.891,"end":12423.222,"text":"第一款增加國家兩個字第二款增加頓號年齡兩個字第三款增加身心障礙及後面的運動量16個字再下來第五款我們增加及設施三個字再往下看那麼第七款呢我們增加之種類頓號以及第八款呢我們加上頓號輔導及監督這三個字好來請"},{"start":12430.649,"end":12457.734,"text":"我知道大家希望推動這個事情但是還是要看那個請署長跟次長啊剛剛加的那個設施設施是名詞啊它每一個譬如說管理監督再現重現都是動詞啊好不好文字想一下譬如說設施設立或是什麼如果要講的話你不要為了體力嘛文字的運用你每一項的後面都是動詞嘛"},{"start":12460.665,"end":12470.51,"text":"對嗎?人才之培育。對嗎?對嗎?職業運動之輔導。運動文化記憶之儲存、再現及什麼?就不會是設施嗎?對嗎?運動文化記憶之保存、再現及設施之設立這樣好不好?"},{"start":12484.364,"end":12496.672,"text":"我還是講一下舊法論法啦,主席對不起容我在說,因為第二條我們在說的是整個運動部的執掌。運動部的執掌包括人才的培育,包括科研,包括產業。"},{"start":12498.499,"end":12525.13,"text":"但是我們並沒有把任何一個具體的那個組織放到上面比如說我們對於產業我們也要成立國家運動產業發展中心嘛就有設置條例了對不對對於訓練人才的培育我們有國家運動訓練中心的設置嘛我們也沒有放在母法裡面啊我們在運動科研我們要成立國家運動科學中心啊也沒有放在裡面啊所以你要針對任何一個"},{"start":12526.624,"end":12553.672,"text":"我也絕對都支持國家運動博物館拚了命也要支持只是你需不需要在文字裡面針對單一個設施硬體放在裡面如果要的話我剛說那你每年我都在盯你們的運動博覽會阿你為什麼不放阿如果人才培育這麼重要你在魔法裡面也沒有講訓練中心要設立阿產業發展中心要設立阿科研中心要設立這是不需要"},{"start":12555.342,"end":12557.923,"text":"在魔法裡面這樣子搞的嗎?所以我我該講的話就是這樣我們在論法論文字論一個立法的體力所以還是要放如果要放的話就是設施之建立可是你們就去想看看"},{"start":12583.983,"end":12603.377,"text":"運動科學中心有沒有放在母法裡面?運動產業方案中心有沒有?運動訓練中心有沒有?都沒有放啊!已經要成立的組織都沒有放在母法裡面你現在要對於未來10年20年努力的目標現在放在就用立法說明去處理就好了這是體力舊條文論條文我的建議"},{"start":12615.146,"end":12642.757,"text":"我們休息五分鐘大家思考一下更周延因為我說明因為目前行政院版它的立法說明只是很簡單的是本部之執掌全縣執掌所以我們立法說明要補充可能會以附帶決議來補充比較可行那至於文字上怎麼讓它精緻也符合體力請大家再及時廣譯我們先休息休息五分鐘一下大家趕快看一下"},{"start":12664.246,"end":12688.137,"text":"那休息之間這邊跟延熙委員會委員說明一下我們是希望說今天我們委員會交給院會還是院會會再協商啦所以呢大家有什麼更好的補充意見的其實到院會協商的時候還可以再行處理只是我們希望說委員會我們將近期可能的將這個法案完備後那其他的事項我們交給院會協商就好了"},{"start":12948.353,"end":12954.884,"text":"好,那個我們有準備便當放下去齁,休息時間齁,感覺上有一些進展。好,那我們繼續開會。"},{"start":12961.718,"end":12986.679,"text":"好,針對剛剛第二條第一項的第五款大家都非常重視運動文化未來是不是能夠有管社所以呢,最好的方法就是我們回到博物館法的規定我們把第五款的這一項文字把它濁修運動文化記憶之收藏、保存、再現、展示及推廣分號"},{"start":12988.34,"end":13009.275,"text":"因為這裡既然有收藏的博物館功能就是典藏、策展、研究、推廣所以說有展示、推廣、收藏一個博物館應當有的具體的作為都有了其實也含闊了既然有展示就代表以後會有館舍不管是透過博覽會是策展的方式或是固定展舍的"},{"start":13019.503,"end":13037.557,"text":"好,謝謝吳賽委員。第五款的部分我們就加上了收藏、遁號、保存後面的遁號、在線的遁號以及展示及推廣。那剛剛好像還有在一個獎勵的部分在第二款還是第三款的部分有個獎勵放進去了沒有?第三款,第三款有獎勵嘛。放在哪裡?"},{"start":13040.182,"end":13064.442,"text":"第二款放進去了年齡還有獎勵那麼是徵詢在場委員再次的跟大家宣告我們今天的處理就是希望能夠這些相關運動部的相關法案的推動我們委員會完成委員會的聯席審查後會交院會協商所以其實後續還有足夠的時間讓大家更周延的去收集社會各界的意見"},{"start":13065.183,"end":13091.685,"text":"我想社會各界是因應期盼我們運動部的推動可以儘速的去推動但也希望能廣納各位各界的意見所以我們的草野協商本來這一個月的時間就是來進行這樣的工作事項好不好那是不是我們第二條的部分就按照修正內容通過好不好好請印出來我們大家通通用修正動議的方式要簽個名我們補這個程序那麼第五條的部分"},{"start":13092.611,"end":13118.806,"text":"我們是不是也徵詢大家意見也是依行政院版來通過?同意好感謝那麼第八條跟第九條的部分那曾建山委員我們剛已經說明了嘛好不好好來曾建山委員這樣為了不浪費大家的時間除了這個運動部組織法包括後面的幾個版本"},{"start":13119.929,"end":13145.483,"text":"我都有類似的原住民的這個保障的一個條文所以這個既然院還會協商所以這個主席你已經這樣宣布了我剛剛也私底下先請示你了你也做了這樣的宣布所以這個部分這個第一個就是請教育部"},{"start":13146.843,"end":13169.66,"text":"請提訴除了這個運動部組織法包括後面的這些條文這些我都有類似的條文所以這個部分也請這個運動部這個運動這個提訴跟教育部包括人事單位能夠能夠給最大的支持這個相關的這些"},{"start":13172.722,"end":13193.524,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13194.087,"end":13222.21,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13222.29,"end":13234.981,"text":"好,感謝聯席委員會各組織委員的支持。那是不是我們第八條的部分就按照行政院版通過?好。好,謝謝。那麼第九條的部分我們也按照行政院版的部分通過。好。"},{"start":13235.916,"end":13259.454,"text":"好那接下來呢我們就來處理我們現在從第一條到第十條都已經主條審理完畢我們現在處理委員針對這全案各條文的附帶決議共11案請一併宣讀尚未宣讀的部分宣讀後呢我們在主案進行處理那請宣讀這段時間後就請我們行政部門趕快看一下"},{"start":13260.214,"end":13268.927,"text":"此一個案子看有沒有什麼意見的我們待會很快的處理那現在時間是午用餐時間也不耽誤大家生理時鐘請大家自行開飯開動"},{"start":13274.658,"end":13293.256,"text":"討論事項第一案附帶915,鑒於本次組織改造細於處理,組織法為主,然相關實體法如國民體育法、運動產業發展條例、運動彩券發行條例等均有配合組織任務修正必要,為避免相關法律授權不足。"},{"start":13293.917,"end":13316.275,"text":"至使運動部無法達成設置目的困境,運動部應於成立後一年內完成前述法律與其他相關增訂法律之延商,並提送法律草案至立法院,使我國運動環境得以做到真正之升級與現代化。提案人委員陳培瑜,聯署人張雅玲,吳佩奕。"},{"start":13317.176,"end":13331.11,"text":"附帶決議六．建於禁藥管制業務為我國運動部門法定任務．為使相關資源移住得以受有效監督．並避免相關單位因組織文化問題．致生我國運動員選一受損狀況．並參考國外目前禁藥管制單位"},{"start":13337.904,"end":13356.94,"text":"知組織設計作法．運動部應於成立後兩年內．完成經要管制單位行政法人化之規劃．並提送組織條例草案至立法院．健全我國運動組織監理環境與效能。提案人委員陳培瑜聯署人張雅琳、吳佩儀"},{"start":13357.58,"end":13368.261,"text":"好,現在請停一下,我們看到剛唸的是第五案跟第六案,大家手上的條文,因為大家可能再找不到,剛已經唸過第五了,也第六,現在就要進行第七,就是第二條的附帶決議,請繼續。"},{"start":13370.791,"end":13397.197,"text":"附帶決議七運動部於成立後應致力於保障運動產業勞動人員促進其勞動條件及勞資和諧提案人委員林依謹、陳培瑜、張雅琳附帶決議八為確實保障兒少權益健全運動教練證照管理制度是未來運動部成立之後重要的任務之一請運動部成立之後應就下列事項進行推動"},{"start":13398.757,"end":13418.576,"text":"第一,建立中央監督與內部治理機制。運動部應建立中央監督機制與完善內部治理制度,確保教練證照管理制度與社政不適任人員通報系統間接。第二,不適任教練撤銷資格機制。若教練被調查證實有不適任行為,"},{"start":13419.496,"end":13431.429,"text":"運動部應擁有直接撤銷教練證照之的權限,並防止教練應持有其他協會合法之證照繼續執業。第三,全國性教練培訓與進修規劃。運動部應統籌規劃全國性教練培訓與增能機制,提升教練在專業知識與"},{"start":13441.959,"end":13460.726,"text":"第四、將兒少權益保障課程納入培訓課程。將兒少權益保障課程納入教練培訓的必修內容以強化教練的兒少保護意識。透過此課程預防未來可能發生的不當管教事件。提案人委員張雅玲聯署人陳佩瑜吳佩義。"},{"start":13461.886,"end":13481.221,"text":"不待決議九．對於臺灣國手在國際賽事權益受損．運動部應建立常態性機制．對申訴、仲裁等權益保障措施積極予以協助．並提供專業資源以維護選手權益。提案人委員吳佩奕、張雅琳、陳佩瑜"},{"start":13482.142,"end":13510.955,"text":"附帶決議時,為促進運動部之設立,行政院邀請各界專家組成體育及運動發展部諮詢小組,不管是競技、全民、帕運、性別平等、適應體育等。諮詢小組提供諸多重要之建言。未來運動部成立後應建立機制,持續採納各界專家之意見,包括促進運動多元平權、兒少運動員之保障,均需廣納各界專家建議以力推動。"},{"start":13511.815,"end":13541.495,"text":"多元平權社會包容及永續發展又職業運動工會能對運動環境改善提出切實之建議反映運動員之需求運動部亦應建立機制定期與職業運動工會互動交流並促成職業運動工會球團賽事聯盟以及特定體育團體間之良善溝通共同促進整體運動環境之提升提案人委員吳佩奕聯署人張雅玲陳佩瑜"},{"start":13542.695,"end":13546.557,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":13567.146,"end":13579.137,"text":"繼非以補習班立案,亦非為課後照顧機構,亦未有任何主管機關主責,然有民團調查此類兒童或幼兒教室課程。"},{"start":13580.138,"end":13606.333,"text":"約近八成無完整消防設備如有教室設立於十四樓高或地下室施生筆與避難消防措施等亦無任何規範。亦即國內既有法制針對室內課程、活動皆無任何管理法規。綜上為保障兒少權益、健全國內兒少相關運動休閒活動及課程之管理。請運動部於成立後應推動下列事項一、"},{"start":13607.573,"end":13631.256,"text":"二、輕查盤點以兒少為對象之運動或修行課程活動現況及數量。二、輔導業者合法化並定期監督管理。三、完成相關場域空間管理之法律與其他相關增訂法律之演商。提案人委員林月晴、陳培瑜、連署人郭育晴、陳俊宇宣讀安閉。"},{"start":13632.037,"end":13661.441,"text":"好,我們現在一案一案處理。那麼我就就直接就行政機關看過建議修改的部分來處理。那麼剛剛還有一個因為第二條的部分沒有辦法在立法說明裡面表達可能會要再有一個附帶決議變成第十二個附帶決議的部分請趕快處理。那我處理到第十一案完之後十二案的文字大家出來我就一併處理。好,現在請大家看到手上的紙本討論事項第一案附帶決議的修正本因為後面呢"},{"start":13662.602,"end":13687.059,"text":"有一張是原本。那我們看修正本。修正本請看它的倒數第六行。從前面請。修法後專任運動教練的原額在教育部考核管理專業發展在運動部較為妥適做這樣的原制修正。好那請問對於附帶決議第一案大家是不是同意修正後通過?"},{"start":13688.875,"end":13715.164,"text":"來,同意齁,好,同意修正通過。我們請看附帶決議第二案,他是針對第五條的部分。那麼這邊的修正意見是將第一段省略,直接從第二段開始。運動部轄下設有全民運動署,以下都相同。請問對於附帶決議第二案修正後的意見,是否同意?同意齁,但是呢,補充一個大眾,在最後一段齁,"},{"start":13716.38,"end":13717.221,"text":"成立運動部獲得社會及大眾共識。"},{"start":13730.598,"end":13754.636,"text":"其實就寫社會大眾共識就好了社會跟大眾共識我們把文字把它更精雕細琢一下成立運動部獲得社會大眾共識啦好做這個修正好請問附帶決議第二案我們按照修正後依然通過好同意那我們請接下來看第三案第三案是我我們就照案通過"},{"start":13756.83,"end":13784.09,"text":"同意我們第三案照案通過那麼第四案有個修訂版修訂版後面有加上了一個倒數第二行協同衛生福利部合作推動並落實健康台灣政策目標請問大家是我同意按照修正後的文字通過"},{"start":13785.199,"end":13796.365,"text":"同意好第四案我們照修正後文字通過請看第五案第五案沒有修正請問是不是照案通過同意謝謝請看第六案第六案沒有修正請問是否照案通過"},{"start":13797.796,"end":13823.523,"text":"等等請問是府長你舉手是第幾案?第六案我們是不是可以建議委員這邊就是在倒數第三行完成禁藥管制單位這個部分是不是可以容許因為我們精神上我們是支持的但是是可以先讓我們完成改成研究成立禁藥管制單位行政法人化之可行性然後把規劃以及並提送組織"},{"start":13830.907,"end":13850.579,"text":"就是完成禁藥管制單位行政法人化之規劃然後再來就跳到以建權中間那一段拿掉言議成立禁藥管制單位行政法人化之可行性言議以建權我國運動組織監理環境與效能好"},{"start":13854.522,"end":13859.868,"text":"嚴議成立禁藥管制單位行政法人化之規劃以健全。"},{"start":13879.229,"end":13898.359,"text":"可行性規劃改成可行性了對不起這可行性對這樣子比較順可行性好第六案我們修正後通過第七案這個很直接了當是不是招案通過同意第八案沒有修正是不是招案通過有來署長請"},{"start":13900.875,"end":13921.826,"text":"稍微請看第二不適任教練徹銷資格機制這一邊第一行若教練被調查證實有不適任行為運動部擁有直接我們是不是可以改成督導協會徹銷教練證照的權限因為按照國民體育法我們運動部是沒有這個體育署也沒有這個權限但我們可以督導協會來做徹銷教練證照的權限"},{"start":13926.616,"end":13943.685,"text":"好,同意。好,那麼我們要不要把文字順一次。若教練被調查證實有不適任行為,運動部應督導協會徹銷教練證照。好,那後面的權限就不用了啦。就是督導他徹銷嘛。是不是?運動部應督導協會徹銷教練證照。是。好,就這樣子齁。好。"},{"start":13953.871,"end":13965.658,"text":"那麼就第八案呢,修正後照,好,照修正後文字通過。第九案,沒有文字修正。欸,這對我的提案,第三行這個文字更正應選手權益了。"},{"start":13977.937,"end":13995.308,"text":"第九案的文字照修正後通過。第十案有沒有文字修正?沒有,沒有讓我們照案通過。第十一案有沒有文字修正?沒有,那我們照案通過。那第十二案文字擬好了沒有?"},{"start":13996.565,"end":14009.971,"text":"12案12案就是那個郭玉琴委員說要放在立法說明的部分來我們印出來請發給那個各位委員請大家把握時間便當趕快吞下去好來陳培委員第幾案"},{"start":14027.208,"end":14047.897,"text":"剛剛亞林委員請我一起簽名的那個是關於教練的部分。第幾案?第八案。我只是要補充說明要提醒體育署。因為是亞林主題,所以我尊重亞林委員的修改文字。但是我要提醒,其實體育署是可以有更積極的作文,因為過往有非常多的做法。"},{"start":14048.257,"end":14070.313,"text":"其實你們都沒有辦法直接面對那些單向協會的教練他們做了很多對兒少不利的事情你們其實是有資格可以拔證的但你們過往真的非常消極但是我完全認同張亮次長說的新的運動部不是舊的體育署所以我希望未來的運動部在這個事情上絕對要有更加積極的作為因為現在"},{"start":14072.595,"end":14097.771,"text":"教練系統的勾擊他不會只有跟社政有關他其實還跟幼照法有關還有跟學校裡面的老師適用系統勾擊有關那我認為在這件事情上我們多次的質詢都一再提醒你們跟衛福部要更積極的作為尤其這些人每天他都在面對我們的兒少非常多的新聞事件如果體育署剛剛決定用剛剛那個改法"},{"start":14098.231,"end":14112.859,"text":"我認為我尊重亞林委員可是請你們未來真的要更加的積極那個我們行政機關列席代表那個便當照吃但是耳朵有聽進去了跟著便當一起吃下去放在心裡"},{"start":14114.161,"end":14132.717,"text":"好,OK。好,那個王政委員。好,謝謝主席。在修正動議7的部分已經把文字修正的條文還有該修正的部分都非常完整的修正。那有關於第三款本來有帕拉禁忌的部分"},{"start":14133.746,"end":14134.427,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員的提醒"},{"start":14154.751,"end":14176.181,"text":"主席來這邊跟聯席委員會說明我們待會要進行第二案的討論那麼第一案還有附帶決議的部分我們在最後全案審訊之前會再就有再補進來的附帶決議一併做處理所以不用急那麼第十案的部分請繼續進行我們開始進行第二案附帶決討論事項第二案我們進第一案宣刊到最後全案"},{"start":14184.391,"end":14209.672,"text":"副大絕現在11個案子啊?還有第12案呢?要宣告啊?不能進行第二案嗎?主席現在進行第二案嗎?好,你好了,你好了。好,現在好了,我們就照第二案來。副大絕第12案印給大家吧。本來想說把握時間。"},{"start":14211.704,"end":14236.914,"text":"修正動議復代決議第十二案。好,不要不小心拿去電便當了喔。桌上的紙張很多。那個簽三個就可以了,趕快先印給大家,後面再補簽。"},{"start":14241.445,"end":14262.782,"text":"好,那個委員比較辛苦一點,第十二案,附帶決議第十二案的補簽,這到主席帶來,我們先簽了三個先印給大家看。那也請行政機關、教育部這邊趕快看一下。先印啦,先印給大家再宣讀啦,不然大家不曉得在念什麼。"},{"start":14287.222,"end":14310.781,"text":"那今天在場的各位辛苦了我們希望能夠把今天要審議的法案呢審議完畢後交給院會當然中間還會經過抄寫協商的過程請大家不要擔心我們還有時間把大家在後續收集到的各種意見更完整的來補充"},{"start":14318.959,"end":14341.43,"text":"主席現在討論的是第一條是不是?不是,我們要討論的是附帶決議的第十二案。你要表示意見,來。政委員有感言要發表。我趁這個空檔,這個請教育部,"},{"start":14347.436,"end":14356.007,"text":"請教育部和體育署回去等一下看一下我上次在這個司法法制委員會"},{"start":14357.506,"end":14381.911,"text":"在質詢針對這個運動部及相關的這些相關的這些組織法或設置條例當時有質詢部長張書有質詢部長我也特別提到了這個禁用的比例我念一下部長當時的答詢"},{"start":14387.025,"end":14413.035,"text":"他特別提到這個他會盡量配合教育部會盡量配合這個我提出的條文所以請教育部、體育署在下一次這個宴協商的時候能夠提出你們的"},{"start":14414.474,"end":14416.511,"text":"陳毅提出你們的筆列以上謝謝"},{"start":14419.414,"end":14446.492,"text":"好,謝謝我們政委員苦口婆心的提醒那現在請大家看一下我們討論事項第一案的附帶決議第十二案我就直接宣讀了我就直接講政策與法規研擬規劃推動管理及監督過程中應充分聽取體育運動員、教練、運動團體及社區的意見並符合身心障礙者權利公約與兒童權利公約提案人郭育琴、陳培鈺、張雅玲還有吳佩儀"},{"start":14450.015,"end":14452.698,"text":"本案逐條均已處理完畢,作以下宣告。本案審查完畢,拟據審查報告提請院會公決。"},{"start":14470.518,"end":14493.591,"text":"需交黨團協商。院會討論時,由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明。附帶決議十二項,一併提報院會處理。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語,授權主席及議事人員整理。好,謝謝。那麼接下來我們就開始進行第二案的審議。那麼現在處理"},{"start":14498.227,"end":14512.289,"text":"繼續併案審查行政院函請審議運動部全民運動署組織法草案等17案。還有呢?還有呢?那有修正同意,那我們請先宣讀。"},{"start":14514.276,"end":14541.004,"text":"討論事項,第二案,修正動議一,對照行政院提案條文,第二條,第四款至第六款修正為,四,海洋水域與山林運動之規劃推動執行管理及監督,五,新興極限與傳統民俗運動之規劃推動執行管理及監督,六,社區運動俱樂部與社團各層級賽事推廣之規劃推動執行及輔導,其餘未修正,提案委員許曉新,"},{"start":14543.204,"end":14572.129,"text":"羅志強、洪孟凱、林思明、謝龍介的。修正動議二對照行政院提案條文第一條首具運動部後增略瓜湖以下簡稱本部其一未修正第三條前段後增略其退休撫恤比照教師相關規定辦理並由本部核定之其一未修正提案人委員吳思瑤、鍾家斌、陳俊宇、陳培宇"},{"start":14574.48,"end":14575.3,"text":"莊惠雄宣讀完畢。"},{"start":14600.981,"end":14626.943,"text":"好,我們現在併案審查行政院函請審議運動部全民運動署組織法草案,那我們是不是就審略大體討論,我們就直接進行逐條,因為本案是制定案,名稱還有條文有六條。好,那麼聯席會議如果同意的話,我們就開始進行名稱。那名稱我們是不是照行政院提案通過?有沒有意見?"},{"start":14627.748,"end":14629.748,"text":"第二案,討論事項第二案的修正動議。"},{"start":14661.244,"end":14689.656,"text":"來,就修正動議了,謝謝提醒。第一條齁,運動部括號以下簡稱本部,這個加上去。好,然後呢,那麼第一條是不是照修正動議通過?好。好,謝謝大家,我們第一條呢就照修正動議通過。那麼請看第二條,那因為第二條呢有修正動議,我們看一下,請看,"},{"start":14691.651,"end":14715.122,"text":"討論事項第二案的修正動議一那麼這裡第二條的部分有加上了第二條的第四款海洋水域與山林運動之規劃推動加上頓耗執行加上頓耗管理及監督以及第五款"},{"start":14717.02,"end":14735.764,"text":"新興極限與傳統民俗運動之規劃推動加個頓號執行以及加頓號管理及監督。好,請問對於討論提案第二條的修正動議是否妥適?"},{"start":14744.244,"end":14747.206,"text":"第六款是社區運動俱樂部與社團各層級賽事推廣之規劃推動加上頓耗執行及輔導。"},{"start":14769.254,"end":14776.931,"text":"主條應先從條文的修正動議再回到條文本身,那如果修正動議大家同意了,那麼原條文就被修正動議覆蓋了。"},{"start":14781.277,"end":14797.221,"text":"主席,那我要發言,謝謝。好,請那個陳培鈺委員。好,我們自己,如果按照主席剛剛的建議,就是如果修正動議同意,那各位的,我們大家的主席都會納入嘛。可是我們的自己的部分,我們有提到關於適應運動還有身心障礙運動,那回應到剛剛我們第一案在討論的時候,其實我們已經討論過,那我積極的主張要把適應運動跟身心障礙運動這邊部分拉出來。"},{"start":14807.524,"end":14828.678,"text":"至於兒童、少年、青年這個部分我們跟院板是差不多的海洋水域還有星星還有極限運動社區運動另外一個我們談到關於社區運動俱樂部跟社團還有各層級賽事的推廣跟規劃這也是目前我們在院板裡面看不到比較積極的部分我看一下所以這個部分我就先提出我的建議謝謝"},{"start":14830.003,"end":14849.23,"text":"那所以陳美玉委員你是要針對第二條的第二款?那第二款你希望做怎麼樣的文字修正?第二款是國民規律運動頓號運動教育與體制能檢測之規劃頓號推動及執行。您希望再調整哪些文字?"},{"start":14850.396,"end":14866.676,"text":"我想要問一下體育署這邊,我們是要怎麼樣可以把適應體育跟身心障礙的部分加進來在全民運動署的部分?包委員,我們這個業務會在適應運動師的規劃,不會在全民運動署裡面去做執行,在本部做。在運動部本部的適應體育師嗎?"},{"start":14870.134,"end":14887.059,"text":"我們就整個私營運動包含全部,包含它的不管是全民類的、競技類的、國際的部分等等全部包含在私營運動室裡面去統籌。好,謝謝署長回應。我先想一下主席,請再給我兩分鐘,先請其他委員發言。好,那麼現在請王振旭委員,再來請吳世耀委員,再來請陳秀寶委員。"},{"start":14888.379,"end":14914.785,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為我們剛剛在第一案的修正動議期動議期已經把相關的文字做一些修正就是把所有這個運動部組織法裡面做的修正尤其是在第二款的部分修正的一些內容那另外我們目前正在討論的這個運動部全民運動署組織法裡面的第二條它應該是相扣合所以在第三款的部分我會建議"},{"start":14915.985,"end":14942.151,"text":"在兒童、少年、青年、壯年及高齡者群體運動以及相關在第一個剛剛所提到的第一案的這個動議期裡面的第二款應該是要相扣分,不然的話到時候處理起來會有一些困擾。以上。好,謝謝。因為我們前面的組織法已經有做過一些文字上的調整了。接下來請吳世耀委員再來請陳秀寶委員。那請體育組趕快做文字上的一些補充。"},{"start":14943.164,"end":14957.165,"text":"我的修正建議在第六款跟第七款。第六款的主題是社區運動俱樂部跟社團各層級賽事推廣之規劃。然後我加上兩個規劃、輔導、獎勵。"},{"start":14959.948,"end":14985.31,"text":"推動及執行所以加入輔導及獎勵因為對於各級的運動俱樂部社團是要輔導跟獎勵的那第七款呢全國性運動團體推動全民運動之輔導我加了一個及獎勵所以第六第七各有兩個小地方的修正但是對於各級運動的社團的輔導獎勵是我們重中之重所以我希望能夠納入我的文字建議謝謝"},{"start":14986.755,"end":15001.798,"text":"我重述一次,那麼請醫事人員看一下,第六款的部分,它在最...第六款它有規劃、推動、執行及輔導。那麼委員的意思是說,執行、規劃、推動、執行、獎勵及輔導獎。規劃之後呢,輔導、獎勵、推動及執行。那個是第七。"},{"start":15010.072,"end":15033.716,"text":"第六款是規劃、輔導、頓耗、獎勵、推動及執行。順序不一樣。第六款是規劃,第一個詞是規劃,再來是輔導,再來是獎勵,再來是推動,最後才是執行。那就執行是及執行,其他的兩個放在前面。那第七款是全民運動之獎勵及輔導。獎要放後面?"},{"start":15039.802,"end":15039.902,"text":"福島及獎勵"},{"start":15049.321,"end":15072.974,"text":"主席我們現在在第二條嘛那第二條其實我們有一個再修正動議就是第二案的修正動議一那其實我覺得大家也都是關心然後都把這些名詞不管是管理監督或是輔導獎勵都放進去那我建議說是不是我們有一個版本因為現在這樣子的話其實你還是會亂我覺得是說是不是以這個再修正動議"},{"start":15073.894,"end":15101.414,"text":"我們提出來這個書面的這一個部分然後在大家認為說可以妥適的地方再把它給放入那我們出來最終一個版本之後那我們再各來確認不然你看我等於說看的是原版本還是說再修正動議版本那我建議是以再修正動議版本來當作是一個base大家來討論可能這樣子行政部門這邊也比較好溝通啦不然我覺得說溝通的那個基準點上其實不同好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":15103.236,"end":15119.213,"text":"剛剛主席這邊跟聯席委員會說明一下這邊是根據再修正動議啦其實我這樣說明一下我們的議事上是原條原提案條文是行政院版那麼根據行政院版的原條文會有一個修正動議"},{"start":15120.214,"end":15135.276,"text":"那如果我們是針對修正動議再修正就會看修正動議那因為現在呢那個我們現在拿到的修正動議其實他前面不是再修正啦他前面就是修正動議啦他是修正行政院的條文啦"},{"start":15135.977,"end":15136.578,"text":"第二條本署長禮下列事項冒號"},{"start":15163.513,"end":15185.436,"text":"一（全民運動政策之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之研擬句號。二（可是怎麼修?剛剛有人說要把它改了,那改了沒有?還沒有改出來?還沒改出來?那麼第三呢也還沒改出來?那第四（"},{"start":15187.153,"end":15207.017,"text":"是（海洋（水域與山林運動之規劃（推動（執行（管理及監督。這樣是沒錯的嗎?好,再來。沒關係,我們現在就直接表達出來了。他張面打不出來嗎?可以啊。"},{"start":15210.953,"end":15212.434,"text":"第四款是建議海洋水與山林運動之規劃推動"},{"start":15231.684,"end":15234.485,"text":"請大家看一下是不是這個意思。"},{"start":15259.622,"end":15279.469,"text":"沒錯齁好那第二款跟聽者趕快想齁我要念第五款了齁五頓號新興頓號極限與傳統民族運動之規劃頓號推動頓號執行頓號管理及監督第五款我的版本希望加入輔導輔導要放在哪裡之規之輔導規劃推動執行輔導要放在最前面"},{"start":15290.404,"end":15317.398,"text":"應該規劃推動執行及輔導吧。好,可以。那,等等,等等,那大家來,來。執行後面開始去處理輔導是不是?那管理及監督要不要?不用了啦。要。要?要管理及監督?新興的要。大家想好齁。我們到執行這裡都沒有問題齁,後面要不要加?這個要去管理監督。輔導。今天幾款都沒有管理監督,為什麼只有新興運動要管理監督?"},{"start":15318.854,"end":15319.114,"text":"就執行及輔導。"},{"start":15340.925,"end":15358.499,"text":"我們這邊有提到說管理監督啦大家還是要討論一下是說因為其實運動部的部分還是有一些運動他的管理跟監督還是有相關的必要性包括各單項協會或說這個有一些運動可能還是會有管理的方向那"},{"start":15359.639,"end":15386.59,"text":"剛剛第四款的部分我同意是說因為海洋水域跟山林這可能涉及到其他部會比如農業部比如說相關的這些水保等等的地方這個是區域的問題嘛所以你是用執行跟協調這個協調部分我可以理解但是如果說第五款部分他全都是運動只是他運動有包含新興運動還是極限運動還是傳統民俗運動那其實基本上都是在運動部的範圍內所以"},{"start":15388.971,"end":15389.992,"text":"第五款目前有一個不同意見是一個要不要"},{"start":15405.779,"end":15407.861,"text":"我覺得那個管理局監督的前面的主詞不是運動項目而是單位組織啊。"},{"start":15423.716,"end":15445.672,"text":"所以反而我譬如說第六跟第七（我們先講第五款對我知道那因為是新興的極限以及傳統民族運動嘛他不是組織不是單位嘛所以其實是我同意剛剛加入一個輔導管理監督不要管理監督其實要放在六跟七啦因為他是管理社團管理的運動團體這樣"},{"start":15448.595,"end":15476.397,"text":"好 我也那意思是說運動它其實是一個抽象的一個集合名詞是那麼社團才是一個具體的管理對象所以在一個抽象的運動的一個集合名詞當中我們就是用規劃啦推動啦輔導啦好不好那底下的具體的團體我們再來再來管理嘛再來監督嘛是我同意這樣子同意那這樣的話我們第五款是不是就以行政院版的條文寫規劃"},{"start":15478.956,"end":15497.294,"text":"推動．斷號輔導及執行在推動後面加個斷號輔導請問大家這樣可以嗎?可以,那我們繼續看第六款那第六款的話就是社區運動俱樂部與社團各斷號各層級賽事之推廣斷號"},{"start":15505.914,"end":15523.885,"text":"我忘記那個順序了。輔導、獎勵、推動及執行。因為剛剛孟凱委員有說要管理監督,這個看看要不要加,我可以尊重。我是希望有輔導及獎勵。"},{"start":15527.523,"end":15554.239,"text":"那個委員你再說一下是不是這樣子那個商量看看因為第六是針對社區的嘛那所以就是社區我們是站在協力他的角度所以是規劃、輔導、獎勵、推動及執行這是第六那第七是因為運動團體嘛依據國民體育法我們對運動管理比較多管理及監督喔就是輔導後面加管理及監督對對對第七點的TC款的後面是輔導及獎勵我剛剛有個獎勵"},{"start":15557.09,"end":15557.771,"text":"好。我們看一看齁。眼睛不夠用了。"},{"start":15584.842,"end":15595.932,"text":"來請那個宏美媛好那我中整一下大家剛剛講的因為還是從小到大大家聽聽看我們這樣子是不是比較完整各層級賽事推廣之規劃、輔導、獎勵、推動、執行、管理及監督"},{"start":15607.606,"end":15634.493,"text":"就是說從規劃開始嘛那當然就是輔導輔導完之後獎勵再推動然後執行管理及監督我想這樣從小到大然後方方面面啦那也把剛剛幾位委員的意見都羅列跟表達進去那也讓行政部門比較好做事好大家請就我們螢幕上的文字齁剛剛黃委員的意思表達了齁"},{"start":15636.523,"end":15638.043,"text":"來王委員文字上怎麼表達?"},{"start":15662.099,"end":15688.294,"text":"就是只要是有關於剛剛所提到那些不管規劃、推動、輔導、獎勵及管理跟監督都可以用同樣的文字就不用有時候是輔導有時候是其他的字眼我的意思是這樣子所以如果是針對於第五項第五款、第六款、第七款的話是不是可以有這樣的方式這第一案"},{"start":15690.899,"end":15708.209,"text":"好 了解了解 來我們齁剛剛在運動部組織法的時候齁有個第二條的第二款阿他這些文字的順序阿是不是我們就把它併入到以給我們的全民運動署來處理齁呃我這邊唸一下給大家聽齁"},{"start":15709.673,"end":15735.958,"text":"而剛剛通過的運動部組織法第二條本部長禮下列事項第二款身心條件、性別、年齡、族群、區域與社會經濟地位各面向多元運動平權之規劃、推動、輔導、獎勵、管理及監督。這個已經把那個母法裡面他所寫的這個"},{"start":15737.794,"end":15765.578,"text":"運動部組織法裡面的第二條第二款都把這些順序都已經排列了那是不是我們這些各部分就按照這個順序來那唯一沒有的就是就是沒有執行那看執行要插在哪裡不用了就直接這樣子那體育組有聽到就是我們把組織法第二條的第二款"},{"start":15766.636,"end":15779.847,"text":"那個順序規劃推動輔導獎勵管理及監督放到我們這個第五款、第六款跟第七款是不是這樣的意思?大家同意嗎?"},{"start":15780.916,"end":15803.857,"text":"所以剛剛在討論是說第五款應該是不需要管理跟監督。對,對。那就至少第六款跟第七款是如此。好,來,署長請說。就是關於社區運動俱樂部的部分,因為我們接下來當然是以地方政府這邊的,輔導地方政府這邊為主啦,那是不是要加上管理及監督?要不然這個職責是可以賦予地方政府,這個部分不是請委員可以再思考一下?"},{"start":15804.704,"end":15832.912,"text":"好,那現在已經...我說是不是可以不要放?不要放,不要放什麼?管理及監督,社區運動俱樂部這部分,因為這個我想給地方政府來進行,我們會輔導地方政府來進行。就是第五款的部分不要放管理及監督。第六款我不堅持。第六款不要放管理及監督。第六款我不堅持。好,那第六款就不放管理跟監督。現在我們那個,有那種一碗冰可以放七樣的齁,你們就盡量不要放的拿掉。"},{"start":15835.987,"end":15864.37,"text":"第五款也沒有管理及監督啊。這個畫面上還沒有更新。好,第五款把那個管理監督拿掉。執行不是獎勵。請用麥克風好不好,那個...最後第六款的管理及監督要拿掉。第六款的管理及監督拿掉。對,然後推動及執行。"},{"start":15865.748,"end":15886.556,"text":"推動及執行陳美玉委員請我先謝謝剛署長的回應關於亞令委員提到社區運動俱樂部的事情剛署長您的意思是說未來這個業務會下放給地方政府由地方政府積極的推動社區運動俱樂部還有社團是這個意思嗎"},{"start":15888.297,"end":15888.597,"text":"我認同我認同好"},{"start":15905.213,"end":15934.373,"text":"那就變成有另外一個困境我覺得用現在社區運動俱樂部的困境就是他們相關的教練的聘用其實必須要有中央的法規來協助地方政府確保他們所用的這些教練不管是單項運動協會的教練證或者是未來國家可能有兒少教練工作證的這個情況所以我現在沒有很明白的是這個協法會不會造成日後分工的困難會不會地方政府認為社區運動俱樂部不是歸他的事情"},{"start":15935.173,"end":15960.047,"text":"那我只是比較想要確保因為尤其社區運動俱樂部他牽扯的是兒少的運動權益跟相關運動環境安全的保障所以這個部分可不可以請體育署再多做說明不然我會有點擔心那個監督的功能我當然知道跟地方政府的所有溝通不可能都透過中央不會本來權責分工就是對的但我比較擔心的是我剛剛說的那些事情這樣"},{"start":15961.067,"end":15964.411,"text":"我們會建立機制。我們負責機制的建立,那地方去做這個管理跟監督實際上的運作。"},{"start":15976.107,"end":16003.237,"text":"好,那麼這樣第七款、第六款OK啦齁那來洪門海委員抱歉喔主席這一點我倒有比較不同的意見啦你看一下我們一開始運動部組織法第二條剛討論最多時間的時候每一款最後都有管理及監督每一款喔你看從第一個國家政策管理與監督身心條件管理與監督、適能運動發展管理與監督那到八"},{"start":16003.937,"end":16007.778,"text":"但是即便你看第八款我相信有很多的運動設施場館他也不會全都是運動部來"},{"start":16019.923,"end":16023.645,"text":"但我們中央部會還是要有管理監督的一個督導權責等於是說你可以來去協助地方政府的相關單位來去做這個運作"},{"start":16047.578,"end":16063.071,"text":"那今天這個全民運動署的部分你可能社區運動俱樂部或跟社團你可能期待的是地方政府的運動局來去做一個主管機關可是有一些縣市其實是不一定有運動局的"},{"start":16065.318,"end":16090.155,"text":"但不管怎麼樣我講的是說你如果說要地方政府去做這個直接的督導管理可是你中央還是要有一樣的一個方向啊所以我說管理與監督是不是還是把它放進去那但是就是說你可以在立法說明裡面寫比較清楚就是說是怎麼樣的分層負責來去做執行我覺得這樣子可能會比較完善以上說明謝謝好"},{"start":16092.472,"end":16119.242,"text":"那麼關於文字的部分因為還有第二款跟第三款還沒有還沒有修正出來因為剛有幾位委員提到來請這邊一位委員好謝謝主席那我就先說明好了我沒有要改掉目前他們的第二款只是我希望我剛有提到有沒有機會加上適應運動還有身心障礙運動的跨部會協調政策規劃推動及執行"},{"start":16121.623,"end":16143.369,"text":"雖然剛剛署長您有說未來有適應運動司但我們回到整個署的高度來說我認為全民運動裡面還是要把適應運動放下去因為它現在是一個署的高度那我認為當我們一邊在未還要談身心障礙法或是涉救法、修法的時候我認為我們更應該要把這個高度放進來談適應運動還有身心障礙運動的部分"},{"start":16146.63,"end":16164.258,"text":"另外現在講的都是運動項目但是其實之前在幾次公聽會當中也有非常多專家學者提到關於運動設施全民化的政策規劃因為現在運動設施的主管機關或者是相關的執行辦法它有縣市政府它也有中央"},{"start":16164.938,"end":16191.184,"text":"那我們在推廣社區運動最大的困境我想雅琳應該也非常清楚其實常常是公共機關的場地很難戒或者是維護的問題所以這邊未來全民運動署我認為要積極面對的還有運動設施的問題所以我也想要要求體育署一個是加入適應運動跟身心障礙運動的部分第二個是加入運動設施全民化政策的規劃推動還有執行相關法規的嚴禮好以上謝謝"},{"start":16192.364,"end":16214.857,"text":"好 謝謝陳偉我這樣子來跟聯席委員會做個說明啦因為今天我們的討論會有這麼多的耗費這麼多的時間其實是因為運動部及相關的組織法的修訂組織條約修訂大家都很關心但是呢我們委員會在進行的時候呢我們上一次跟這一次之間我們新增了很多上週五才交下來的議案"},{"start":16216.058,"end":16244.867,"text":"以至於說,行政機關也未及能對這些委員的相關提案進行充分的彙整。所以我們今天等於是在處理什麼呢?處理星期五叫到本委員會來這些新增的個案,這些文字上的奇異的修正。所以感覺上大家都很有心,但是我們在意識的效率上卻很難去處理。那我是不是這樣一個建議,是不是說,看起來大家在方向上、意識上都表達了,那因為我們這還是會交付朝野協商。"},{"start":16245.467,"end":16258.725,"text":"那麼讓在草野鄉之前就今天大家所表達的各個新的版本的文字上的起義讓行政機關帶回去好好的做統整那麼在草野鄉的時候呢再讓大家來確認好不好"},{"start":16260.681,"end":16288.592,"text":"我們今天在很多的文字細節上因為這些文字細節的差異其實都不是我們三週前開始審議的時候的文字內容的都是上週五交下來的所以我們在這裡面耗費很多時間其實也不是怪誰就是說反映時間不夠我們沒辦法充分的來進行整合那是不是容許我們現在先以一個大概的方式先讓他的條文呢先完成那麼後續的一些"},{"start":16290.092,"end":16299.362,"text":"條文彼此之間條款的一些一致性我們在抄寫協商的時候讓行政機關提出來好不好可不可以委員們好不好我們先把這個文字下訂了差不多了啦對會診差不多了因為你看其實像現在第六款的部分"},{"start":16313.055,"end":16338.271,"text":"有保留執行對不對?有保留執行嘛那如果說如同剛剛那個我們這個體育署署長講的就是說未來這個社區運動俱樂部他是地方政府去執行那就不會在這邊要執行啊你懂我意思嗎?所以我想說其實管理及監督我們還是希望把他放進去就是因為他未來"},{"start":16340.133,"end":16354.572,"text":"全民體育署它還是一個比較上位的一個部分所以說它會有一個管理跟監督的責任跟權限在這邊那是不是也把它加進去然後這樣子其實我覺得第二條基本上我們其他委員應該沒有其他意見的話這就可以直接"},{"start":16355.112,"end":16369.563,"text":"秀正後通過啦。我們還有第二款跟第三款。來,我們現在那個教育部講一下。報告那個委員啦,因為第六條講的是社區運動俱樂部跟社團。那很多地方的社團的管理權、管理監督權依照地方制度是89。"},{"start":16371.064,"end":16392.149,"text":"二十,就是還有分那個直轄市、縣市跟這個區公所,所以那個自治權是在地方啦,那個自治,那我們現在這個是全民運動署長下列四項,那我們如果把這個社區運動俱樂部我們也變管理監督,你跟那個地方的政府的地方自治會漢格嘛。"},{"start":16392.829,"end":16409.964,"text":"所以第七全國性OK這就是我們運動全民運動署要管理監督我們是可以接受那第六社區運動這個將來會產生問題如果我們立在母法裡面所以才會說管理跟監督這部分第六款是不是不要放市長那你這樣執行要不要留下來你又講是說這個是自治權然後你又留一個執行不這樣也不會很奇怪嗎"},{"start":16419.905,"end":16437.596,"text":"對,所以說你這樣要嘛就是如果說你的邏輯一致的話那就變成是只有規劃、推動、輔導及獎勵好不好,先這樣子,好,先這樣子,可以好,那我們就把它變成說輔導及獎勵那其他的文字因為第二款跟第三款剛剛有幾位委員表達要有"},{"start":16438.436,"end":16441.4,"text":"考慮到運動部組織法的部分我們是不是就一致化?"},{"start":16441.4,"end":16451.173,"text":"那個亞林委員還有補充嗎?我想要針對第八款的部分因為多元運動專業人員之培育我希望後面可以加在那個改成是頓化輔導及管理"},{"start":16452.199,"end":16454.501,"text":"在我的版本在第七款跟第八款我都有加入及監督因為第七款是全民運動署他會提供補助款給協會運動團體所以我們必須也要"},{"start":16476.561,"end":16477.041,"text":"則不予審查行政院函請審查。"},{"start":16497.298,"end":16506.618,"text":"提醒各位,我們還有四個討論案,所以我們這裡就到此打住好不好,差不多了嗎?"},{"start":16509.257,"end":16530.136,"text":"主席那如果最後是要送出去協商可不可以把我剛剛講的適應體育跟運動設施請體育書把相關文字給主席然後就後續再去協商討論可以嗎?協商都沒問題啦協商部分都沒問題好不好?我講一下為我的版本有新增第九款全民運動的運動外交那就把它放進立法說明這樣好不好?所以呢"},{"start":16537.202,"end":16545.321,"text":"我是這樣子啦因為我們後面還有後面的那個行政法人的部分都是三十幾條的所以大家請考慮到我們時間的運用上"},{"start":16547.81,"end":16575.179,"text":"好不好我們先讓這一個因為這是組織條例這是全民運動的組織條例我們後面還是會朝野協商那一定會在我們上個星期收的這麼多不同的版本當中的文字的調和那這個調和的工作需要一點時間消化那今天我們只能消化午餐便當沒辦法消化那麼多條文好不好各位委員那我們是不是就以現在畫面上的部分把它先做一個確認"},{"start":16578.032,"end":16589.903,"text":"大概可以接受的情況下,我需要再宣讀一次嗎?我們不用了吼,因為這個字也太小了。"},{"start":16592.81,"end":16622.082,"text":"好,那我們就按照這個部分先印出來。我現在請他印出來,那因為這是修正動議,請大家再簽一個修正動議,我才能把它確定好不好?那我們就往第三條去推進好不好?先印出第二條給大家看一下,因為第二條修了這麼多齁,我坦白說,最後長了什麼樣子,我們大家拿到資本再來確認好不好?"},{"start":16624.948,"end":16645.585,"text":"第二條我們先暫保留,讓他條文印出來,修正動議我們再處理。第三條有修正動議的部分。第二案的修正動議二,就是這一個。"},{"start":16648.047,"end":16675.044,"text":"這裏面呢就是在第3條的加上其退休輔續比照教師相關規定辦理並由本部核定之就加上這幾個文字對因為把它漏掉了吧體育署這個是很重要的喔退休輔續喔這很重要喔體育署確認一下吧委員報告這個是符合體力的沒有問題沒問題嗎可以齁那第3條是不是我們按照修正動議後通過好好看一下來把它放大第3條"},{"start":16677.129,"end":16698.651,"text":"來那個組長請說我們在第三條的部分抱歉我們修改一個標點符號就是第三條第三行必要使得比照大學校長資格聘任逗號不是分號是逗號"},{"start":16700.811,"end":16701.711,"text":"那麼第四條我們是不是照行政院"},{"start":16731.206,"end":16759.271,"text":"第四條,照行政院條文。對,都一樣。來不及翻,都一樣,四個版本都一樣。那第四條我們就照行政院版本通過。好,接下來第五條。也都一樣。條文都一樣。就照行政院。就照行政院通過。好,謝謝。第五條我們照行政院版本通過。第六條。也一樣。也一樣齁。"},{"start":16761.107,"end":16769.655,"text":"我們按照行政院版本通過。好,那有一個附帶決議請宣讀。"},{"start":16772.112,"end":16799.63,"text":"討論事項第二案附帶決議本屬署長依第三條規定比照大學校長之資格聘任時其退休輔續比照教師相關規定辦理並由運動部核定之其中屬85年1月31日以前瓜胡及教育人員退輔經濟施行以前年資之退輔經費由運動部編列預算之應。提案人委員吳四堯、莊瑞雄、鍾嘉斌、陳俊宇、陳培宇宣讀完畢。"},{"start":16802.591,"end":16830.724,"text":"好請問附帶決議大家手上有拿著OK嗎那我們附帶決議就召喚通過好我們回過來剛剛的那個文字第二條的文字大家拿去簽一下那這中間配議委員有主席剛剛第二條我有提到說希望把全民運動外交要納入立法說明這個部分可不可以請主席回應呢好立法說明我們看第二條的立法說明"},{"start":16834.154,"end":16836.195,"text":"那我是改成附帶決議是不是很快的我們寫一下"},{"start":16857.369,"end":16885.395,"text":"那這樣的話我們第一附帶決議有一案已經宣讀了齁那麼這個案要再增加我們才能附帶決議因為第二案要處理完附帶決議我們才能往下推動這個附帶決議可以容許第二案完再回來處理嗎還是我們可以在協商的時候放附帶決議協商的時候也可以放附帶決議啊"},{"start":16888.447,"end":16904.797,"text":"對,好不好?好,謝謝,非常感謝吳沛。那剛剛的那個附帶決議我們就照樣通過了吼,我們現在看第二條吼,印給大家了吼。第二條在哪裡啊?我已經找不到第二條。正在印,正在印,好。"},{"start":16909.384,"end":16929.32,"text":"我把第二條很快的全文念一遍大家念的同時你就會在螢幕上看到你手上也會拿到一張那麼簽名的部分修正動力部分可以來前面補簽第二條本署長禮下列事項一、全民運動政策之規劃推動與執行及相關法規之研擬二、國民規律運動"},{"start":16930.521,"end":16932.522,"text":"議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。議案第11項。"},{"start":16960.93,"end":16987.563,"text":"七、全國性運動團體推動全民運動之輔導、獎勵、管理及監督。八、多元運動專業人員之培育、輔導、監督及管理。九、其他有關全民運動事項。好,請問各位委員,我們就先以這樣的條文內容作為本委員會聯席審訊的條文內容,好不好?感謝大家,感謝感謝,那我們就開始。"},{"start":16992.947,"end":16997.352,"text":"好 做好修正同意通過 好來 那麼本案"},{"start":16998.854,"end":17024.958,"text":"主條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會公決本案需交由黨團協商院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明附帶決議一項一併提報院會處理條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":17025.913,"end":17029.015,"text":"好,謝謝。我們現在呢...要協商。要協商。接著呢,我們進行..."},{"start":17039.141,"end":17066.98,"text":"好,那因為我們現在進行討論事項第一案的瓜福二,那麼本來是由審查委員萬美玲等16人擬據運動發展部運動產業發展局組織法草案,那麼由於我們這個運動部全民運動署組織法草案等17案之併案業於審查完畢,我們第二案瓜福二的部分我們做如下決議,另定期繼續審查。好,謝謝。"},{"start":17070.222,"end":17091.524,"text":"好,那我們現在進行討論事項第三案嘛。好,討論事項第三案我們繼續併案審查行政院函請審議國家運動產業發展中心設置條例草案等11案。現在進行討論。好,那我們是不是就直接我們有這個修正動議齁。"},{"start":17093.154,"end":17105.932,"text":"第三案有修正同意那就修正同意請宣讀請宣讀啦那我們待會就直接進行逐條同意嗎好第三案好那我們就請先宣讀修正同意"},{"start":17107.134,"end":17132.788,"text":"討論事項第三案修正動議一,針對行政院對照行政院提案條文第十九條,增訂第二項為本中心人員不得有性犯罪、違反與性或性別有關之專業倫理、違反兒童及少年性交易防治條例、兒童及少年性剝削防治條例之行為以及經單位性別平等委員會或依法組成及相關委員會查證違規屬實及情事。"},{"start":17136.158,"end":17161.099,"text":"第3項及第4項由原第2項、第3項、第1提案人委員徐巧欣、黃孟凱、林思明、謝霖介、吳志強宣讀完畢。好,那個是修正動議是第19條啦,那我們現在就從主條討論,那麼是這是制定案,那麼有名稱5個章的章名及34個條文,那是不是我先從名稱的部分,"},{"start":17162.196,"end":17186.674,"text":"名稱部分呢,我們是不是各提案名稱均相同,我們就按照行政院通過,好不好?好,謝謝。第一張的張明,各提案張明均相同,是不是照行政院提案通過?好。謝謝。第一條的部分,呃,我們第一條的部分齁。應該都一樣。好,那麼第一條的部分,"},{"start":17188.973,"end":17213.628,"text":"只有一案齁,陳委員的部分陳培育委員的部分沒關係吧好謝謝主席我還是說明一下就是我知道其實大家長期認為臺灣運動產業發展出現很大的困境所以有這個中心絕對絕對是好事也謝謝行政院有提出這個版本但是我只是要提醒其實在運動產業裡面其實並不會只有產業喔包括我們剛剛說的運動設施專業研究單位國際運動合作"},{"start":17216.51,"end":17238.2,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":17238.618,"end":17238.998,"text":"行政機關的看法?"},{"start":17259.773,"end":17285.028,"text":"主要是確定是在產業方面因為國家運動的發展也包括運動科學國家訓練中心如果不標明說是對運動產業的話很可能就是裡面以後包羅萬象眼目目標大家負責任務過度所以我們還是用產業啦用產業來帶動運動選手也需要運動產業的發展他們未來才會有一些空間所以是很明確的用運動產業發展中心"},{"start":17286.749,"end":17288.11,"text":"第二條的部分是關於本中心的組織形態及監督機關"},{"start":17316.587,"end":17332.771,"text":"那如果沒有不同意見,我們是不是就按行政院提案通過?好,同意齁,謝謝。那我們請看第3條。第3條的部分也是我們是否就按照行政院提案。請陳秀寶委員發言。"},{"start":17339.414,"end":17341.876,"text":"因為我們產發中心的成立無非是要振興我國的運動產業來帶動產業的發展那理應也要協助運動部決定運動的產業發展策進的方案所以我在這邊是徵定說"},{"start":17363.175,"end":17391.706,"text":"要加入《運動產業發展制政策及計劃研擬》來協助運動部制定相關的運動發展政策。以上。好,謝謝陳秀寶委員的意見。好,陳秀寶委員。是,請,那個,協議署長。請容許我們這邊做說明。我想這個,運動產業的發展制政策及計劃研擬這部分屬於本部的職權。我想這個部分我們會在產業及科技是這樣一個初步規程這邊來進行。那是不是請容許,委員可以容許我們這部分不要放棄。"},{"start":17393.035,"end":17417.345,"text":"在初步歸程了。好,謝謝陳秀寶委員。那我們第3、第4條的部分。第3條的部分按照行政院提案內容通過。謝謝。請看第4條。那提案的文字都一樣。是不是我們第4條也按照行政院提案文字通過。好,謝謝第4條。第5條的部分。"},{"start":17430.136,"end":17449.789,"text":"第五條的部分大家看法怎麼樣那是我們第五條按照行政院提案文字通過好謝謝第五條我們按照行政院文字提案通過我們現在想想第二張的張明、張明君相同是不是按照行政院提案文字通過"},{"start":17451.274,"end":17453.298,"text":"好 謝謝我們請看第6條陳培宇委員請"},{"start":17462.674,"end":17487.972,"text":"好謝謝關於這個中心的董事會我們有一些期待也想要請體育署回應一下第一個是在我們希望可以加入企業工會推派的代表也就是說未來如果產業發展中心組建企業工會我們認為應該要參考國營企業管理法規劃勞工董事的席次其實像這一次已經有很多新聞在談到這次十二強在"},{"start":17490.634,"end":17504.198,"text":"關亞賽,呃,冠軍賽的時候,其實公會的協商,團體協商其實發揮了非常大的功能,所以我們也額外協商,我們希望在董事的部分由主管機關聘請公會推派的代表擔任一人。"},{"start":17504.838,"end":17522.935,"text":"那公會推派的代表如果有不適應的情況公會得另行推派職那主要也是希望把職業運動球員的公會代表也可以納入這個董事會的成員讓基層球員的聲音可以被聽見各式各樣的運動員的聲音可以在這個董事會裡面被聽見既然是要發展產業那他們就在產業裡面服務我認為他們的聲音必須要積極的被聽見謝謝好 貼士組請說明"},{"start":17529.778,"end":17548.301,"text":"我想陳委員這邊的提案大概是參考國運事業管理法這部分來針對組織的治理及利害關係員參與精神,這我們予以尊重。不過在考量這個運產中心目前上午相關的企業公會如果修法通過將無法執行並且造成董事會組織的不合法。"},{"start":17548.801,"end":17573.221,"text":"那是不是可以在實務操作上面我們用第三款來領選適當的人選就可以來進行我想這部分我們保留一個彈性好嗎就是把它保留到未來那現在如果直接定下去我們是沒有辦法執行的以上好這個部分我覺得我可以接受體育署的說法可以這樣調整那至於我們剛剛說工會的代表因為目前事實上台灣已經有非常多職業運動員的工會了那工會代表進入董事會裡面這個部分呢"},{"start":17575.342,"end":17597.906,"text":"我們主要是部分的我們是實務操作上從第三款這部分來進行了我覺得這樣的保障其實我認為球員運動工會他們應該不會接受可不可以更明文的寫清楚前向第四款之董事或是前向第三款之董事由主管機關聘請工會推派之代表擔任藝人我覺得要更積極的把工會的角色拉進來"},{"start":17604.945,"end":17625.273,"text":"議員工會...我可以問一下嗎?現在有多少企業工會?我說的不是企業工會,我說的是球員工會。企業工會這邊我已經說OK可以改掉了,我說的是球員工會。球員工會...有多少...有這個...那個陳偉你上面寫的是企業工會。對,對,可是那...目前..."},{"start":17627.904,"end":17629.045,"text":"第六條先暫保留我們看第七條"},{"start":17657.025,"end":17678.619,"text":"第七條,省委員有一個...我們是不是按照行政院版通過呢?第七條因為都一樣啦只有89月的部分我們有看到省委員的部分他有些許的一點點的不一樣"},{"start":17685.663,"end":17703.109,"text":"第七條,按照行政院提案文字通過。第八條,各版本文字都一樣。我們是不是按照行政院提案文字通過。第九條,郭育群委員,第103頁。"},{"start":17710.919,"end":17715.261,"text":"第9條,我們按照行政院提案文字通過。第10條只有范雲委員的文字略有不同在112頁。那麼范雲委員的文字就是年齡的部分。"},{"start":17740.899,"end":17764.604,"text":"他把年齡的部分拿掉。沒關係吧。那其他的各版本都有年齡的限制。那是不是我們按照行政院版本文字通過?好,我們第10條就按照行政院提案文字通過。第11條各提案條文內容均相同,是不是按照行政院提案文字通過?"},{"start":17765.967,"end":17795.331,"text":"好 謝謝接下來第12條在121頁各委員文字提案內容都一樣就是郭宇晴委員121頁好 這個第12條其實我是參考那個上市櫃公司董事會記錄他需要宰明的一些事項就是主要是怕一些避免之後的一些爭端那比方說像董事長如果因為不可預見的一些原因他沒辦法執行這個行使權的時候"},{"start":17795.691,"end":17813.797,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":17814.309,"end":17841.086,"text":"好 那麼就陳如剛提案委員的說明那因為這個是行政法人是我們就按提議組長有關剛剛郭委員提的我們是不是在後續的組織章程這邊來呈現就可以了就不用放在這個組織法裡面這設置條例裡面這是行政法人的組織條例那那個部分可以放在組織規則好 可以我同意謝謝那我們第12條就按照行政院提案文字通過"},{"start":17843.493,"end":17869.079,"text":"再來第十三條各提案條文內容均相同,是否按照行政院提案文字通過?好。謝謝。第十四條一樣各提案條文內容均相同,我們按照行政院提案文字通過。好。好。謝謝。第十五條各提案條文內容均相同,我們是否按照行政院提案文字通過?好。謝謝。第十七（十六條各（"},{"start":17871.923,"end":17895.174,"text":"提案條文文字只有郭委員的部分140頁。第16條的部分我是有增加一個就是如果是用視訊參加會議者其實可以視同他就是出席啦。對啊這個應該沒有什麼太大的問題。這個本來就可以了,所以大家不用訂了。不用徵訂就可以。好那我們就按照第16條按照行政院提案文字通過。"},{"start":17897.691,"end":17913.967,"text":"第17條各條文內容均相同,各提案條文均相同,我們按照行政院提案文字通過。第18條各提案條文內容大致相同,就是範雲委員的146頁的部分。"},{"start":17919.282,"end":17938.378,"text":"這是舊的條本,我們示範到行政院最新的文字通過。好,那我們第18條就按照行政院提案文字通過。第19條,那麼有修正動議,修正動議。好,第19條請大家看到手上這個修正動議。有,剛宣讀過了嗎?"},{"start":17944.475,"end":17957.206,"text":"就是說他加了第二項包括什麼性犯罪、性侵、性教育防治等等把這些不得有這些事項是不是請行政機關說明一下"},{"start":17959.447,"end":17972.873,"text":"如果沒有在母法當中條文明定,對於這些禁止任用的人員,是不是需要額外的來列明?請說明。"},{"start":17975.174,"end":18002.462,"text":"如果是在教育的場域的話確實在學校這些相關的教師法都有規定說類似講這些性別事件的是不能夠擔任教師或這些相關的規定那不過就運動產業發展中心的這個部分而言他的性質是屬於比較偏向於行政體系的這個行政機關的這個性質所以是不是建議回歸到一般行政法人的消極資格條件來做處理這樣子在用人上面是比較有彈性的這樣子以上"},{"start":18002.682,"end":18002.923,"text":"好,謝謝說明。來,郭委員。"},{"start":18010.451,"end":18037.801,"text":"第19條關於那個經用的人員這個部分因為我把那個就是限縮的範圍可能拉得更多更具體一點然後就包含就是配偶跟前配偶還有四等級之內的這個部分我把它納進去了那主要是因為這個部分我們是很怕那種私人的關係去影響到決策的進行那我覺得也會影響到整個所有的公平性跟透明度所以這個部分我想說這個部分是不是可以"},{"start":18038.201,"end":18038.221,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":18055.752,"end":18058.213,"text":"請教在場聯席委員會委員我們是不是按照行政院提案文字通過?"},{"start":18076.288,"end":18102.365,"text":"好可以謝謝大家我們第19條按照行政院提案文字通過請看20條各提案條文內容均相同我們按照行政院提案文字通過第21條也一樣第三張張明各提案張明均相同我們按照行政院提案文字通過第21條各提案條文內容均相同我們按照行政院提案文字通過好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":18104.588,"end":18124.567,"text":"第22條（各提案條文內容均相同．是否我們按照行政院提案文字通過?同意,謝謝。第23條（大致相同．那麼就是有181頁有陳培鈺委員跟鄭天才委員的部分請大家看一下181頁"},{"start":18126.653,"end":18153.693,"text":"好,那麼陳委員您多了一個第五款。好,謝謝主席。對對對,我多了一個第五款,就是相關的評鑑內容,我覺得這些都沒有問題,只是我加了一個,這個產業中心它的服務對象還有一般民眾對本中心業務執行的評價,尤其是服務對象,因為既然我們要好好發展產業,那到底被我們這個中心服務的對象,他們對我們這個產業發展中心的工作效率或者是相關的績效,我覺得要把他們的"},{"start":18155.656,"end":18165.614,"text":"閱讀的過程所累積的經驗跟感受作為評鑑的時候很重要的指標之一。謝謝。行政機關這邊要不要說明一下這樣的意見。"},{"start":18167.062,"end":18188.006,"text":"好,八位委員那剛剛的陳委員的意見我們予以尊重也精神上我們是贊同不過在運動員這一滿意大大度跟外界對於運動產業中心意見的這個反應納入評鑒指標這部分我們目前國家訓練中心也都是這樣子實務運作啦暫無自愛難行之處是不是建議還是採院版就好了?"},{"start":18192.023,"end":18208.981,"text":"事實上各行政法人的這個績效平和都會在行政法人都會監督機關都會另定這個績效平和的相關規定所以有關這些具體的評鑑指標都會在各法人的主管監督機關定的這個績效評鑑的規定裡面去再做處理所以"},{"start":18209.441,"end":18220.178,"text":"所以就是建議還是用院版的方式來那委員的意見我們將來在擬定這個行政法人的這個評鑑規定的時候我們就會納入考量這樣子"},{"start":18222.739,"end":18249.149,"text":"好先謝謝你們的回應主席不好意思我再暫用一分鐘事實上在我們辦公室的版本我知道你們都說過去有做可是好幾次我們其實也聽到不管是國訓中心都有相關的陳情我們認為你們所說的服務對象在過往的體育教育運動結構當中上對象的權利關係真的太過明顯而且那個深植人心我覺得我們就算瞬間把這個產業發展中心成立都不見得能夠立刻改變那個現象"},{"start":18250.129,"end":18269.627,"text":"所以我自己很負責任的在三個版本相關中心的版本裡面我都有加入這一條我並不是只有在產業發展中心加入我認為如果你們認為實質上現在已經在操作了那我不任何入法會有什麼困難那我想這個是對於所有被運動產業發展中心服務的對象他們會希望積極看到的承諾以上謝謝"},{"start":18276.033,"end":18300.725,"text":"那麼蔣委員用附帶決議的部分表達…謝謝次長的回應那如果用附帶決議是不是等一下我在其他兩個中心的版本你們也會希望建議是這樣修改呢?等一下我們就不用再發言討論但是我還是想要知道到底入法的困難是什麼?體力的關係吧如果你們現在真的都已經在做了而不是只是做做樣子或者是很多聲音會被蓋下來那到底現在為什麼不能入法?"},{"start":18304.207,"end":18332.02,"text":"因為事實上那個實務的指標會根據各法人的這個特性然後會做相應的處理所以就變成說如果說這個列進去的話或許將來也會有其他的要一併列舉在列舉上面可能會在法條上面可能會有它的那個自愛性所以說就是實際上我們在做的時候我們就在擬定的那個考核規定裡面來做處理那委員的意見我們一定就會充分尊重而且目前實務上也都有在這樣子處理的這樣子"},{"start":18332.6,"end":18346.89,"text":"那我可以問一下目前你們已經在處理的,如果你都已經說有在處理,那就代表你是有指標的啊。那你如果已經有指標,不就現在拿來做就好了嗎?然後就入法寫清楚不就好了嗎?因為你口口聲聲都說一直你有在做,代表你是有內容,你有項目,你有指標啊。"},{"start":18347.931,"end":18367.852,"text":"這樣好不好那個陳委員因為這個是三個中心都有類似的同樣的提案我們是不是在草野協商的時候如果說大家我們三個中心今天三個中心都處理完了在草野協商的時候如果有共通性或者用附帶決議或者是在草野協商的時候在文字上一併加入或保留或保持原樣再做處理好不好"},{"start":18368.172,"end":18392.306,"text":"沒關係那主席我可以接受改成附帶決議那就三個中心一併改可是我認為附帶決議還要更加加強你們在這件事情上的態度跟主體性我可以不用勞煩到協商因為如果我現在沒有寫進來那到協商的時候我也不見得有機會可以參與協商但是在這件事情上我真的想要積極的主張所以我可以等你們現在附帶決議一併簽出來謝謝附帶決議可以直接納入沒關係好那我們就附帶決議那這樣子好不好我們還有幾個條文你們附帶決議趕快寫"},{"start":18394.867,"end":18419.084,"text":"那麼我們這一條呢就是按照行政院提案文字通過那你們趕快把附帶訣寫出來那待會我們另外兩個組織條例的時候呢我們就這樣處理我們到現在這個中心的部分我有點不是很確定我們中心現在這個產業中心的部分我們不是大家都已經可以同意嗎那如果這樣的話那為什麼我們這個還需要才會寫上"},{"start":18420.253,"end":18439.377,"text":"不是設置條例它是個法律案對啊我們有運動部組織法有三個中心一個新創法一個全文修正一個部分條文修正的設置條例這三個都是法律案然後呢今天還有一個教育部的組織法這五個法律案統統要送到那如果說今天今天通過的部分就不用再朝野協商了吧"},{"start":18439.757,"end":18452.404,"text":"一樣,我們永遠會,看最後啊,如果最後大家認為今天這個設置條例,因為這個設置條例原則...對啦,因為你剛剛一直講是說還要草野協商,運動部組織法是...我們現在在這邊就已經很多都已經有共識了不是嗎?"},{"start":18453.251,"end":18480.009,"text":"我這樣跟那個黃委員說明一下我們的審訊之後我們全案審訊沒有條文保留但是送到院會的時候他會有兩種路徑一個是全案就直接送院會就不用再經草野協商那個速度就很快囉那如果說我們今天沒有做成這個決定就是一樣照規定送草野協商還是一個月所以還是一樣啦前面的組織法就是這樣子啦運動部組織法"},{"start":18484.155,"end":18513.046,"text":"對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!對!"},{"start":18514.065,"end":18528.072,"text":"這樣的說明可以接受了。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,那我們現在第四章的章明,各提案章明均相同,是不是按照行政院提案通過?"},{"start":18529.633,"end":18552.595,"text":"好謝謝那麼第24條各提案條文內容均相同算到行政院提案文字通過好沒問題謝謝那接下來呢第25條各提案均相同那麼有羅委員199頁的部分有一個小小的差異那他是三個月跟兩個月的差別是不是我們直接建議按行政院版本通過"},{"start":18553.942,"end":18582.836,"text":"如果同意的話,我們第25條按行政院提案文字通過。那麼第26條各提案條文內容均相同。是否我們就按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。第27條各提案條文內容均相同。是否我們就按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。第28條各條文均相同就243頁鄭天才委員的部分。"},{"start":18585.16,"end":18610.679,"text":"剛剛他已經表達過了,他在每一個函他有提出,那這個一樣就是會在草野協商一併處理。所以我們是不是第28條一樣按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。第29條,各提案條文內容均相同,是我們按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。第30條,各條提案條文內容均相同,是我們就按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。"},{"start":18612.199,"end":18627.851,"text":"第三十一條,大部分都一樣,那麼就是兩百六十頁的部分,我們吳佩儀委員的部分。那那個必要時三個字是不是我們就,因為差異只有一個必要時逗號,這三個字。"},{"start":18631.092,"end":18659.302,"text":"道正院板同意。好,謝謝。第三十一條,我們按照行政院提案文字通過。第五章的章名,各提案章名均相同,是否按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。第三十二條,各提案條文內容均相同,我們是否按照行政院提案文字通過?好,通過,謝謝。第三十三條,各提案條文內容均相同,是我們按照行政院提案文字通過?好,通過,謝謝。"},{"start":18661.584,"end":18690.42,"text":"最後我們第34條各提案條文內容均相同我們是否就按照行政院提案文通過好謝謝那我們現在有一個剛剛那個陳委員的附帶決議是不是已經有還沒好等一下那我們要不要先休息一個因為我們又進行很久了讓大家去喘息一下那我們五分鐘好不好那我們後來接下來還有第三第三案第四案嘛"},{"start":18691.189,"end":18695.147,"text":"好,那後面三案、四案、附帶決就一樣了啦。好,謝謝,我們休息五分鐘。"},{"start":19089.864,"end":19113.126,"text":"我們繼續開會那個附帶決議出來了嗎?好請宣讀討論事項第三案附帶決議以國家運動產業發展中心之績效評鑑應納入服務對象與一般民眾對該中心之業務執行評價提案人委員陳培瑜、郭育琴、陳秀寶宣讀完畢好那麼請問來請說"},{"start":19115.393,"end":19144.429,"text":"我快速回應一下主席我們剛剛那個第六條我們在中間休息時間的討論那他們等一下會出一個附帶決議應該就可以了謝謝第六條也有一個附帶決議啊對對對這邊這個就快速通過就都不用協商了這樣第六條的部分因為剛剛我自己喊出暫保留嘛所以我只是自己回應剛剛我喊的暫保留這樣謝謝好那麼請問對於附帶決議一有無不同意見那沒有的話我們就召喚通過"},{"start":19146.36,"end":19160.145,"text":"那因為我們剛剛從第一名稱開始一路到最後面還有一個第六條的部分也是要用附帶決議是不是那附帶決議現在他在寫了我們剛剛這個是真的23條23條是那個評鑑的部分那第六條是"},{"start":19177.574,"end":19178.616,"text":"好,企業工會的部分。"},{"start":19194.537,"end":19196.839,"text":"好,可以,那我們就等那個附帶決議的部分了。"},{"start":19221.683,"end":19239.858,"text":"問題決議在誰那裡?手你影印給他就可以了接下來是第四案第四案"},{"start":19244.637,"end":19245.497,"text":"對,進入是不一樣的。"},{"start":19280.083,"end":19285.226,"text":"手寫沒關係啦,手寫的文字也看得懂。用注音寫我就看得懂。"},{"start":19346.704,"end":19347.985,"text":"經濟跟內政"},{"start":19395.54,"end":19398.386,"text":"請先宣讀第四案的修正動議。我們第三案最後會處理。"},{"start":19402.977,"end":19428.65,"text":"討論事項第四案修正動議一對照行政院提案條文第十九條增訂第二項為本中心人員不得有性犯罪違反與性或性別有關之專業倫理違反兒童及少年性交易防治條例兒童及少年性剝削防治條例之行為以及經單位性別平等委員會或依法組成之相關委員會查證違規屬實及情事"},{"start":19430.734,"end":19457.588,"text":"原第二項．一為第三項並修正原第三項．一為第三項原第三項．一為第四項提案人委員徐巧欣、羅志強、黃孟凱、林思明、謝龍介修正動議二對照行政院提案條文第六條第一項第二款修正為二與運動訓練、運動防護、運動醫學及運動心理健康促進相關之學者專家"},{"start":19459.827,"end":19464.69,"text":"提案人委員王振旭、鍾嘉斌、張雅玲、陳培瑜宣讀完畢。"},{"start":19493.473,"end":19517.823,"text":"好,討論事項第三案附帶決議二本中心成立後監督機關應會同本中心進一步研議評估將企業工會代表納入董事代表之可行性提案人陳培鈺、郭育晴、吳佩奕跟陳秀寶委員好"},{"start":19519.534,"end":19536.634,"text":"那請問待遇互待決議內容是否同意?好,我們就照案通過。那麼,討論事項三,本案逐條均已處理完畢,作以下宣告。本案審查完整。"},{"start":19537.543,"end":19558.097,"text":"拟據審查報告提請院會公決本案需交由黨團協商,院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明,附帶決議兩項,一併提報院會處理,條次引述條文,部分文字及法制用字用語,授權主席及議事人員整理。"},{"start":19559.724,"end":19582.284,"text":"那我們現在進行討論事項的第四案繼續併案審查行政院函請審議國家運動訓練中心設置條例修正草案等13案現在進行討論那是否請教我們聯席委員會就直接進行主條討論好那我們主要討論開始進行主條審查那麼"},{"start":19587.707,"end":19613.144,"text":"本案系全文修正總共處理34條,那底下我們就分別...好,那我們就開始依次啦,因為是全文修正就從條文開始來。第一條,那麼除了陳培鈺委員提案第26頁看一下,那其他各提案文字均相同。"},{"start":19614.599,"end":19632.538,"text":"好謝謝主席那我就簡單說明一下因為過往國訓中心當然在硬體改革上有非常大的進步然後確實也讓很多國手是非常有感的那我覺得確實讓我們的國家比賽成績進步很多可是呢說實話這幾年運動環境的改變或者是非常多國際綜合賽事"},{"start":19635.339,"end":19656.125,"text":"國際單項錦標賽或是各式各樣的身心障礙運動台灣已經出現了非常多優秀的運動人才所以我希望在國訓中心的服務對象可以擴及到像我剛剛說的這些人那我們當然同時是參考我們台灣一直以來想像的運動強國就是日本日本的國訓中心他們同時還有提供身心障礙運動員的訓練的設計不管是在硬體或是軟體的生活設計上"},{"start":19660.006,"end":19674.25,"text":"那目前國內的法規範我認為我們可以一併未來再想像國訓中心的任務的時候可以一併把這個納進去所以我的版本寫的就是前面都一樣第三句開始培育國際綜合型賽會國際單項錦標賽身心障礙運動優秀運動人才提升國際運動競爭力特制定本條例謝謝好那請協議書說明這部分我們目前保持尊重"},{"start":19689.522,"end":19689.902,"text":"好,那麼第二條"},{"start":19716.377,"end":19741.684,"text":"那麼分別有第27頁羅廷偉委員以及第28頁萬美玲委員的提案,文字率有不同,其他都一樣,我們請看。那如果沒有的話,我們就按照行政院提案文字通過。第三條有吳佩儀委員、陳秀華委員、陳培鈺委員等萬美玲委員。來,請陳秀華委員。"},{"start":19744.501,"end":19771.713,"text":"謝謝主席在這條的第三款本來的原條文是說醫療照護支援訓練之執行那我在這邊我是把它修正是提供醫療照護及心腹支援支援訓練之執行因為國訓中心培訓我們運動選手的同時也應該是提供選手所需的醫療照護以及心理智商等訓練支援事項尤其我們應該提供就是很充足的心腹資源能夠穩定選手的表現"},{"start":19773.174,"end":19775.722,"text":"所以我覺得這個應該是明定在條文裡面以上。"},{"start":19776.854,"end":19805.809,"text":"很好,那麼請問其他在場委員有沒有其他補充?來,我們陳佩玉委員。好,謝謝主席。第三條的第五款,我額外加入,除了生涯諮商之外,額外加入身心照顧、權益保障還有課業輔導,因為事實上我們知道有非常多選手現階段都還是學生。那當然我知道國訓中心目前有相關的課業輔導,那我覺得既然有在做,我們就把它明文寫進去,也可以保障後續更多選手他們不會只有運動加分,他們的學術成績也可以加分。"},{"start":19806.329,"end":19834.133,"text":"另外我還提到運動文化跟相關物件的保存跟典藏事實上這也是國訓中心目前好像有一個小小的庫房在做這件事情但是好像也比較沒有系統跟規劃今天早上我們在提到運動博物館的時候我們說有相關設施規劃推進但如同沛毅委員早上說的如果沒有小小的累積我們很難想像未來博物館如何開張所以我認為目前國訓中心應該可以繼續承擔運動文化跟相關物件的保存跟典藏"},{"start":19834.733,"end":19863.476,"text":"那我額外加了第九款運動員團體的溝通跟權益保障因為在國訓中心裡面的受訓生活真的非常的辛苦但是很多時候相關的權益溝通跟保障我認為他們沒有一個好的對口那我知道相關機制已經有在改善可是我還是希望明文把它寫進去讓更多的選手進去在這裡面是一個保障基本人權然後保障一個專業的被對待的空間所以我們希望加入這個款謝謝"},{"start":19866.598,"end":19872.513,"text":"沒有,那不然我們就請體育署回應。以上委員的意見我們基本上都有同意。所以"},{"start":19876.786,"end":19896.178,"text":"我今天有一種幸福來得太快的感覺在此時此刻從剛的尊重到現在所以署長你的意思是說我的身心照顧、權益保障、課業輔導、運動文化保存、運動員團體溝通權益全部都可以納入條文對啊真的我們就把它納入條文好謝謝署長幸福來得太多了所以這個幸福資源的部分也會列入齁"},{"start":19897.278,"end":19898.999,"text":"所以第三條的條文在於從第三條第三款開始"},{"start":19912.614,"end":19939.617,"text":"是採用陳秀寶委員的提案文字提供醫療照護及心腹支援支援訓練之執行然後從第五款開始就納入了身心照顧權益保障從第七款之後增列了第八款第九款那麼那個原第八款改列為第十款好那這樣的話我們是不是文字按照修正後通過"},{"start":19942.639,"end":19944.1,"text":"接下來第五條都一樣,但是陳秀寶委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":19971.732,"end":19973.233,"text":"請看第57頁它增加是自主裁員運用管理增加了這幾個字其他的跟行政院版文字是相同的"},{"start":20002.711,"end":20022.08,"text":"第五條,這部分在,報告委員,這部分是那個在院版第28條,第三項,有列到28條了,是不是採院版就好了,謝謝。好,陳宥鵬委員同意嗎?好,謝謝。我們第五條,照行政院提案文字通過。那麼,第六條,有個修正動議,剛剛已經念過了。"},{"start":20024.793,"end":20045.93,"text":"還有陳培鈺委員是謝謝主席我要幫王振旭委員發言他提到在他的修正動議裡面這個是修正動議對第6條第二款他希望寫成是與運動訓練、運動防護、運動醫學及運動心理健康促進相關之學者專家請問體育署這邊有收到這個來體育署請說明"},{"start":20050.287,"end":20050.987,"text":"委員那個我們是不是運動與運動訓練"},{"start":20075.872,"end":20095.866,"text":"因為運動醫學其實就包含了運動防護、運動心理等等這些全都包了啦。是我們就用運動訓練、運動醫學或者是說用附帶決議的方式來執行就可以了。就是說那個附帶決議他可以講說第二款有關運動相關之學者、專家應包括運動法律、科學、產業。阿不然這樣真的怪異若外。"},{"start":20096.277,"end":20118.196,"text":"好,那就用次長這個建議,就是你們概略的寫法,然後另外的寫在附帶決議裡頭,這樣好嗎?好,謝謝我們這樣好不好,我們第6條先照行政院提案文字通過,但我們附帶決議的部分呢,我們在最後再來通過好不好,那麼請體育署趕快研擬好,感謝各位委員,我們第6條按照行政院提案文字通過第7條"},{"start":20120.97,"end":20125.612,"text":"那麼有郭委員68頁。那個就是產業啦,多了產業兩個字啦,運動產業。好,第七條的部分因為我只有一個那個監視的總人數的部分。對。好。"},{"start":20147.394,"end":20173.393,"text":"第七條的部分齁那麼我想郭委員那個因為我們這個是運動訓練中心那原行政院版的文字是由具運動法律或會計那就沒有了您所家的產業兩個字是否可以按照行政院提案文字好謝謝我們第七條按照行政院提案文字通過接下來第八條有郭育勤委員第72頁"},{"start":20180.208,"end":20201.66,"text":"就只有在文字的部分,如果行政院這邊的版本...行政院條文比較新。那我就按照行政院的版本沒有問題。好,那我們就感謝郭委員。我們第8條按照行政院提案文字通過。第9條...第9條...第9條如果沒有的話,我們就按照行政院文字通過,謝謝。"},{"start":20204.468,"end":20216.977,"text":"第10條各提案條文內容均相同,是否我們按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。第11條是否我們按照行政院提案文字通過?"},{"start":20218.848,"end":20247.905,"text":"好謝謝第十二條各提案條文內容均相同我們按照行政院提案文字通過同意好謝謝第十三條各提案條文內容均相同我們按照行政院提案文字通過OK謝謝第十四條我們按照行政院提案文字通過OK謝謝第十五條各提案條文內容均相同我們按照行政院"},{"start":20249.127,"end":20252.17,"text":"文字通過謝謝第16條156頁156頁那個郭委員因為第16條"},{"start":20268.992,"end":20273.593,"text":"第18條我們是不是就按照行政院提案文字通過?謝謝。第19條"},{"start":20302.591,"end":20316.08,"text":"第19條的修正動議內容是...就是剛剛我們已經討論過了啦,那個教育人員不一樣,那我們是不是按照行政院提案我們就通過?"},{"start":20317.352,"end":20322.519,"text":"好,謝謝。第20條各提案條文內容均相同,我們按照行政院提案文字通過好嗎?"},{"start":20336.175,"end":20364.745,"text":"好,請體育署說明。好,鮑委員這部分是有鑒於就是有時候奧運或者是亞運在某些特定的國家城市舉辦,我們會希望在那邊在奧運舉行前一年兩年前我們就可以住外。那我們為什麼不要用外交部的常駐,就是因為我們這比較屬於任務性質比較彈性,就不要造成長期在那邊設組的困擾,我們就用行政法人的方式來做專案的一個派外的方式來進行這樣。"},{"start":20366.627,"end":20374.393,"text":"這部分已經跟外交部談過啦,我想這樣子外交部也比較,也覺得這樣子是比較彈性,也比較不會造成一些困擾這樣。"},{"start":20375.485,"end":20400.891,"text":"我可以理解但是你剛剛署長的意思說可能會拉到一年兩年這麼長的時間派外做各式各樣你們想像的他必須要為了配合亞奧運做的一些事情這是其中一項對沒錯其中一項還有嗎我可不可以知道有可能通過什麼如果有些地方是我們常常需要去做一地訓練的部分或許也是還有運科訓練的部分是有可能是這樣子那這部分我們目前"},{"start":20401.781,"end":20430.745,"text":"先暫定以奧運跟亞運這部分為主。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。我們第20條就按照行政院提案文字通過。第21條,各提案條文內容均相同,我們是否就按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。第22條,我們是不是就按照行政院提案文字通過?"},{"start":20432.858,"end":20435.08,"text":"好,謝謝。第23條,我們也按199頁齁。199,陳委員,陳委員。199頁,您的部分。"},{"start":20449.791,"end":20474.138,"text":"就是第23條。對,第23條。對對對,就是運動員及一般民眾對本中心之業務執行評價。對,這個部分我們就已經透過那個附帶決定處理了。好,謝謝,我們就按照行政院提案文章通過。謝謝陳裕委員。第24條,各提案條文內容均相同,按照行政院提案文章通過。謝謝。第25條,各提案條文內容均相同,是我們按照行政院提案文章通過。"},{"start":20475.864,"end":20503.236,"text":"沒問題,謝謝。第26條,各提案文字、條文內容均相同,是我們就按照行政院提案文字通過。好,謝謝。接下來,第27條217頁。漏字啦,那個陳委員我們是不是就按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝陳委員。接下來第28條,各提案條文內容均相同,我們按照行政院提案文字通過,好嗎?好,謝謝。"},{"start":20506.018,"end":20508.661,"text":"第29條（各提案條文內容均相同。"},{"start":20514.073,"end":20539.987,"text":"第30條各提案條文內容均相同,我們是否就按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝,通過。我們就按照第31條各提案條文內容均相同,我們是否就按照行政院提案文字通過?好的,謝謝。第32條各提案條文內容均相同,我們是否就按照行政院提案文字通過?通過,好,謝謝。第33條各提案條文"},{"start":20543.1,"end":20563.649,"text":"好,我們目前是不是我們按照行政院提案文字內容通過?好,好,謝謝。那麼第34條的部分我們是否也按照行政院提案文字通過?可以。可以齁,謝謝。好,我們是不是在等一個附帶決議?我們在等一個附帶決議嗎?第6條的部分。"},{"start":20568.838,"end":20583.786,"text":"這也是運動部,這也是有的,配合修正的。好,那剛剛因為有烘委員希望我們把那個文字彙整後看過來,我們請看一下第三條的部分文字內容,大家請看。"},{"start":20586.94,"end":20603.685,"text":"第三條（本中心之業務範圍如下（一、國家籍優秀運動選手之選拔培訓及輔導參賽。二、國家籍優秀運動教練之培育及進修。三、提供醫療照護及心腹支援訓練之執行。"},{"start":20605.605,"end":20631.662,"text":"四、本中心場館之營運及管理五、國家及優秀運動選手之身心照顧權益保障、科業輔導及生涯諮商輔導六、競技運動相關事項之國際交流七、與國內外運動訓練相關機構之合作交流八、運動文化與相關物件之保存九、運動員團體之溝通與權益保障"},{"start":20635.004,"end":20647.29,"text":"十、其他與競技運動推展相關之事項。提案人我們陳佩玉、郭育晴和吳佩儀委員。我確認一下,運動員團體溝通跟權益保障是國訓中心有辦法做到嗎?"},{"start":20657.91,"end":20661.473,"text":"我指的並不是指在外面的運動員團體而是他們進到國訓中心在受訓期間這些運動員團體相關溝通跟權益保障的事項。"},{"start":20673.368,"end":20692.21,"text":"是,對不對,那所以這一個部分,因為運動員團體溝通跟權益保障其實對我們來講其實它是很廣的一個部分,我覺得它應該是運動部的事情。但是如果說你是受訓期間,比如說在國訓中心受訓期間的相關,不管是,對啊,那這樣子這要不要寫更明確一點?"},{"start":20693.767,"end":20695.008,"text":"陳委員是不是這樣比較剛好?"},{"start":20720.189,"end":20744.686,"text":"那就是培訓運動員團體制溝通與權益保障可以嗎?團體的部分不要拿掉,但是加入培訓的...團體喔奇怪,因為有的是個人,你是說那個...包含團體,所以要把團體的部分留下來,那加上...這樣好不好?陳委員,我們文字上喔...那就這樣,個人及團體都放著可以嗎?受培訓的團體嗎?有受...有啊有啊有...好那..."},{"start":20749.011,"end":20763.272,"text":"那個陳委員我們是不是主席打個商量你這個運動員團體如果改成培訓運動員之溝通與權益保障因為華文沒有單複數啦當你拿一個培訓運動員他其實包含了個人跟團體都包含在內"},{"start":20764.974,"end":20782.068,"text":"好,可以,謝謝。那就改成培訓運動員之溝通與權益保障。那謝謝陳委員,謝謝洪委員的提醒。那麼體育署這樣OK了齁?那我們就把修正動議在做文字上的調整。第九款,培訓運動員之溝通與權益保障。好,那麼請問修正動議按照這樣的話,我們第三條照修正動議通過好嗎?同意。同意,感謝大家。"},{"start":20793.493,"end":20800.699,"text":"第6條附帶決議,運動相關學者,包括運動訓練、運動防護、運動醫學、物理治療及運動心理健康促進等領域。提案人陳梅玉、吳佩儀、郭宇群三位委員"},{"start":20824.8,"end":20843.652,"text":"請問我們在場委員對於附帶決議內容是否同意?同意,然後主席他們好像還有一個附帶決議,就是我剛說的那個企業法人的部分,因為我每一個法都有修,所以他每一個法都在寫一個附帶決議,謝謝。欸,剛剛不是已經講,已經有了嗎?禮中,在處理中而已。好,處理中,喝口茶。"},{"start":20896.84,"end":20896.92,"text":"好的。"},{"start":20927.363,"end":20928.584,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20957.455,"end":20978.792,"text":"修正的東西剛剛不用啦,因為我們就這樣唸過,對。就說文字修正而已。我們第3好像已經處理過了。"},{"start":20984.674,"end":21004.529,"text":"再唸一次就好了。再唸一次就好了嘛。是哪一個?就這個,這個可以啊。"},{"start":21007.236,"end":21010.297,"text":"本中心成立後,監督機關應會同本中心進一步研議。"},{"start":21032.954,"end":21054.882,"text":"評估將企業公會代表納入董事代表之可行性。好,那因為這是針對同一個三個設置條例的同一個內容,我們做同樣的附帶決議。好,那我們就把文字上的調整為針對討論事項第四案的條文是第六條嗎?是第幾條?"},{"start":21060.029,"end":21077.655,"text":"第六條是針對我們本案第六條的附帶決議。好,那請問在場委員是否同意?同意。那主席不好意思,剛剛那個第三條的修正動議你就說不用再改了,但是我們的第九款是不是就是寫成明訊?"},{"start":21079.315,"end":21084.64,"text":"培訓,培訓運動員。好,那我要補充說明一下,剛剛有點來不及,就是為什麼會有團體的事情,因為其實我們之前就要非常多陳情,協會或者是國訓中心可能會單獨找團體裡面的球員溝通,在球員彼此資訊不對等的情況下,就把很多合約就簽下去了。"},{"start":21098.951,"end":21120.93,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":21122.469,"end":21123.53,"text":"好,那我們剛剛我們的討論事項第四案,我們就做一個處理。"},{"start":21150.29,"end":21173.582,"text":"本案逐條均已處理完畢。作以下宣告本案審查完畢。拟據審查報告提請院會公決本案需交由黨團協商。院會討論時由中召及委員嘉賓出席說明。附帶決議兩項一併提報院會處理。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理。"},{"start":21174.175,"end":21191.743,"text":"好,謝謝大家,我們現在繼續來進行討論事項第五案,繼續併案審查行政院函請審議國家運動科學中心設置條例,不問條文修正草案等13案,現在進行討論。好,請問在場聯席委員會委員,我們是否直接進行逐條討論?"},{"start":21193.459,"end":21218.564,"text":"同意的話我們就進行逐條審查好現在繼續進行逐條討論本案細部份修正共處理13條那首先我們就依序來處理第二條那麼第二條呢是不是我們就按照行政院提案文字內容通過同意同意謝謝第三條那個28頁吳委員的部分"},{"start":21225.134,"end":21247.382,"text":"二十八頁您看一下您的部分二十八頁是否我們同意按照行政院提案文字內容您是有加上運動防護技術有包含在院版裡面運動防護也有包含在裡面那同意按照院版好同意那我們第三條按照行政院提案文字通過"},{"start":21248.677,"end":21267.362,"text":"好,接下來第五條。那是不是我們按照行政院的原文字通過?因為不予修正,維持現行條文。第五條。可以齁,謝謝。我們第五條,不予修正,維持現行條文。第六條。"},{"start":21269.002,"end":21271.044,"text":"第六條,我們按照行政院提案文字通過。"},{"start":21286.598,"end":21299.412,"text":"第七條,各提案條文內容均相同,是否我們按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。第八條,各提案條文內容均相同,是否我們按照行政院提案文字通過?好,謝謝。"},{"start":21300.885,"end":21324.642,"text":"第18條各提案條文內容均相同,是否我們按照行政院提案文字內容通過?通過,謝謝。第19條,剛剛已經有念過那個修正動議了,內容也是一樣,已經做了區分了,是否我們就已經按照行政院提案文字內容通過?通過。好,謝謝。那麼接下來是,來,郭議員。"},{"start":21326.989,"end":21343.138,"text":"我尊重就是剛剛我們就是照行政院的提案通過但是還是要特別強調啦因為其實我們還是有接到有很多類似像近親之間的利益不迴避的這樣子的一個狀況所以可能還是要特別注意一下以上"},{"start":21343.717,"end":21363.732,"text":"好,謝謝郭委員的提醒。所以呢,我們因為剛剛前面的設置條例也是有同樣的內容,那也感謝委員的提醒。所以我們第19條按照行政院提案文字通過,請看增訂第19條之一,由於各提案條文內容均相同,我們是否按照行政院提案文字通過?"},{"start":21366.985,"end":21392.18,"text":"第二十一條,我們各提案條文內容均相同,我們是否按照行政院提案文之內通過?第二十二條,行政院是建議不予修正。第二十二條,我們就不予修正。第二十七條,是不是我們也是不予修正,維持現行條文第八十頁的部分?"},{"start":21397.221,"end":21401.923,"text":"第三十三條,是否我們也是不予修正維持現行條文?其他新的附帶決議請宣讀。"},{"start":21420.465,"end":21447.853,"text":"這是組織法的,看錯了。剛剛那個第幾條的,再念一次就對了。第六條,第六條。討論事項第五案附帶決議一本中心成立後監督機關應會同本中心進一步研議評估將企業工會代表納入董事代表之可行性提案人委員陳培瑜、郭育晴、吳佩儀附帶決議二"},{"start":21449.193,"end":21458.886,"text":"監督機關應會同本中心進一步研議、評估將企業工會代表納入董事代表之可行性。提案人委員陳培瑜、郭育琴、吳培已宣讀完畢。"},{"start":21465.635,"end":21487.187,"text":"那他把他變成第五案的第一跟第二啦齁我們這個有點塞車剛剛宣讀的兩個是同一個啦只是應該一個發生在第四案的附帶決議現在是第五案的附帶決議請問第五案的附帶決議內容是否同意同意好那我們討論事項第五案的附帶決議通過第四案的附帶決議也是一樣的啦也通過"},{"start":21489.48,"end":21514.012,"text":"好。接下來本案逐條均已處理完畢。作以下宣告。本案審查完畢。擬據審查報告提請院會公決。本案須交由黨團協商。院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明。附帶決議一項一併提報院會處理。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語。授權主席及議事人員整理。好。"},{"start":21516.426,"end":21541.977,"text":"終於我們進行討論事項第6案繼續併案審查行政院函請審議教育部組織法第2條、第5條、第9條的條文修正草案等19案現在進行討論好那麼請問在場委員是否我們直接進行逐條討論同意好那我們就開始進行逐條審查那逐條審查我們只有部分條文共計處理三條首先第二條的部分那個"},{"start":21543.016,"end":21567.182,"text":"請看第39頁有陳佩玉委員的部分陳委員第39頁好謝謝主席我只有在這個第二條的第8款加入了適應體育的部分謝謝好請看第41頁條文對照表第41頁請體育署看一下他在學校體育後面加上了適應體育政策加上適應體育四個字請問體育署"},{"start":21576.043,"end":21595.997,"text":"因為我們現行第二條的條文裡面事實上已經有包括學校體育的概念那適應體育是依據特殊教育法跟國民體育法針對身心障礙的學生的這個體育的部分來做的一個實施的教學那事實上已經含括在我們學校體育的那個概念裡面"},{"start":21596.778,"end":21611.66,"text":"所以說未來我們還是現在事實上已經實際上根據這兩個法的規定在做落實了所以建議是依照院版的條文來做處理這樣子因為學校體育的概念已經含括適應體育教學以上好陳委員你覺得呢"},{"start":21613.276,"end":21627.281,"text":"我們那時候在修特教法的時候應該是有把適應體育寫下去對不對好我現在只是希望確保我們升格之後運動部升格之後孩子們在學校尤其是身心障礙學生的適應體育的部分要再被教育部認真的面對跟加強"},{"start":21628.865,"end":21632.447,"text":"第9條是我們也是按照行政院提案文字通過"},{"start":21660.336,"end":21689.082,"text":"OK第9條主席這個修法文字我都沒有意見但是因為我們學校體育的設施這次修法過後就會從體育署移回到教育部是這個樣子那我們在人力及相關的資源上面請教育部要多加的給予協助因為我知道其實國教署原先的業務就已經負擔非常的大了教育國教署會增加學校體育組會有10個編制對"},{"start":21690.95,"end":21702.572,"text":"好,那我們謝謝吳沛委員。那是否我們第9條就按照行政院提案文就通過?好,謝謝。那接下來我們有附帶決議。關於教育部組織法第二條的附帶決議請宣讀。"},{"start":21704.771,"end":21725.234,"text":"討論事項第六案附帶決議一十二年國民基本教育課程綱要總綱系以哲學為基礎而開展基本理念中的自發強調人是學習的主體透過互動來認識外在的事物最後達成共好的倫理觀課程目標中的啟發生命潛能主張培養好奇心探索力"},{"start":21726.015,"end":21729.736,"text":"總綱中的這些論述均與哲學教育息息相關。請國教院盤整12年國教與哲學教育相關的"},{"start":21754.865,"end":21777.76,"text":"內涵包含領域學習重點及議題教育內涵供教學現場進行哲學教育融入及課程轉化時參考提案人委員羅廷偉、黃孟凱、陳秀寶。宣讀完畢。好請問那個教育部這邊有沒有要回應?內容來部長。可以。好順道辦理。好那我們教育部組織法第二條的附帶決議呢就照案通過。"},{"start":21780.98,"end":21802.08,"text":"本案主條均已處理完畢。作以下宣告。本案審查完畢。拟據審查報告提請院會公決。本案須交由黨團協商。院會討論時由中召集委員、嘉賓出席說明。附帶決議項一併提報院會處理。條次引述條文部分文字及法用之用與授權主席及議事人員整理。"},{"start":21803.78,"end":21831.239,"text":"好,議程所列事項均已處理完畢。會場所收修正動議及附帶決議均列入公報記錄。本次會議進行到此結束。現在散會。謝謝大家。來來來,那個堅持到最後的子勇啊,來喔。那個我們部長、次長、署長。來吧,辛苦大家了。來為我們的運動部組織法"},{"start":21834.192,"end":21839.704,"text":"大功告成!謝謝五分黨派全民支持!"}]}},{"id":"16321","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16321","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d0909407a1db8a6676425655b8120616fb104c5adbfed68f7c9c8ac616c16d7385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分。（僅詢答）\n二、繼續處理院會交付外交部113年度中央政府總預算決議（十八）「對外之捐助」預算凍結100萬元案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-28","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-28T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-28T13:30:0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洪正榮人事處處長 黃麗玲政風處處長 余世民主計處處長 李佩華資電處處長 林啟文國中會執行長 劉永健"},{"start":5827.049,"end":5853.388,"text":"NGO國際事務會執行長陳剛毅臺日協秘書長范正國臺美會秘書長邱高偉外交學院副院長陳文宜領務局副局長陳尚友"},{"start":5857.99,"end":5881.285,"text":"國和會副秘書長矢力軍臺灣民主基金會執行長廖達齊PECC中華民國委員會秘書長許俊彬行政院主計總處專門委員張家瑜"},{"start":5887.328,"end":5908.972,"text":"經濟部人事處專門委員紀嘉琳教育部國際及兩岸教育師檢任一等教育秘書曾進文化部文化交流師專門委員梁玉芳勞動部綜合規劃師專門委員林永裕"},{"start":5915.476,"end":5940.664,"text":"僑務委員會人事處主任楊智傑退府會服務照顧處檢任視察吳家昌國科會科教發展及國際合作處科長李家儒經管會國際業務處科長黃耀白"},{"start":5946.616,"end":5954.881,"text":"核能安全委員會綜合規劃組科長吳明哲。（農業部國際事務司國際組織科科長臉麗慈。（漁業署遠洋漁業組科長賴怡汝。（交通部觀光署國際組科長陳冠竺。（"},{"start":5975.868,"end":5984.221,"text":"財政部國際財政司科長李威龍衛福部國際合作組暨政古凱文"},{"start":5990.866,"end":6010.405,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分（僅作詢答（報告區分為公開及機密兩部分（採先公開後秘密方式（報告後接續詢答（詢答先秘密後公開（時間並記"},{"start":6015.046,"end":6030.742,"text":"因為今天會議開始比較晚（中間還有改開秘密會議的程序（詢答完必要處理結凍案（下午又有附屬單位預算的黨團協商（所以詢答時間略做縮短（也希望待會質詢的委員能夠盡量管控時間（本會委員6假2分鐘（"},{"start":6035.346,"end":6049.117,"text":"非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於11點前提出11點半左右是詢答情形進行處理現在請林部長上台就公開部分進行報告主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好很榮幸能夠再度來到"},{"start":6064.076,"end":6079.151,"text":"外交國防委員會向各位委員報告114年度本部主管預算案也利用這個機會拜託各位委員能夠大力支持本部的預算那在"},{"start":6080.322,"end":6096.538,"text":"主管預算包括公開及機密兩部分那機密預算另作報告請就本部主管預算公開的部分以下就施政的重點稅入稅出預算案編列情形即稅出預算案綜合說明三方面"},{"start":6098.608,"end":6116.526,"text":"簡述如下首先114年度本部施政的重點本部全力推動以價值外交為基礎並讓臺灣成為經濟日不落國為目標的一個總和外交的政策方向希望建立民主共同體、安全共同體及經貿共同體"},{"start":6119.288,"end":6133.601,"text":"提升鞏固與邦交國的關係深化與理念相近國家合作強化我國非政府組織的國際鏈結以善用國家的軟實力提升我國的形象開創價值外交的新時代"},{"start":6134.502,"end":6149.542,"text":"本部依據行政院114年度施政的方針（配合中層施政計畫及合定預算的額度（同時針對當前涉及情勢及未來發展需要（編定114年度施政重點如下（"},{"start":6151.516,"end":6167.902,"text":"1、深化鞏固邦交關係,持續推動包含元首外交等我與友邦高層及重要官員之互訪,並善用我國優勢領域提勝在基礎建設、貿易及投資議題上的雙向合作,以深化與友邦關係。"},{"start":6169.721,"end":6188.249,"text":"第二、深化提升與我理念相近及友好國家關係。藉由邀訪、對話及交流持續強化與理念相近友好國家的關係。藉由我國的數位國力及印太戰略以數位新南向加強與印太地區友好國家的合作與交流。第三"},{"start":6189.758,"end":6195.362,"text":"擴大國際參與並積極做出貢獻,持續透過多元方式來爭取加入國際組織,並反制中國扭曲聯合國大會第2758號決議的論述,加強向國際社會說明,以爭取擴大我國國際參與的空間及正當性。"},{"start":6209.537,"end":6220.366,"text":"第四強化及擴大臺灣與全球產經鏈結運用我國的高科技、綠能、新興智慧科技等各項優勢來掐牽各項的雙邊協議強化各項對話機制加強與邦交國及理念相近國家實質合作"},{"start":6228.652,"end":6252.6,"text":"第五提升我國優質國際形象以民主和平繁榮為主軸將我國強項議題透過資源整合及計劃性國際傳播作為以提升整體國際宣傳的綜合效果升級我國的形象爭取國際有利的空間第六加強結合及整合民間與政府各部門的外交能量"},{"start":6253.582,"end":6281.061,"text":"推動成立跨部會經貿外交的專案小組並加強結合國內NGO的力量以擴展臺灣的國際空間。第七強化外交同仁跨領域專業與職能強化外交人員經貿與科技等多方面跨領域專業能力以配合國際趨勢能夠與時俱進。第八提升為民服務的效能與品質秉持依法行政追求效率為民服務等原則"},{"start":6282.282,"end":6301.854,"text":"優化申辦及自發護照作業品質（強化經濟文件證明服務的品質（海外疾難救助服務機制以及旅外安全宣導工作。（第二大部分就114年度本部主管稅錄及稅出預算案編列情形報告如下"},{"start":6302.85,"end":6310.197,"text":"首先本部主管稅務預算共編列41億4637萬9千元）包括罰款及賠償的收入135萬元）規會收入36億8348萬5千元）財產收入2960萬5千元）以及其他收入4億3193萬9千元）"},{"start":6326.211,"end":6343.422,"text":"第二點本部主管稅出的預算共編列有319億8178萬1千元之就本部領事事務局外交及國際事務學院分別報告如下首先本部公開稅出預算共編列284億6558萬5千元以下按業務計劃逐項二要說明"},{"start":6350.586,"end":6354.107,"text":"一、一般行政編列87億3,250萬、05萬3千元,較113年度增列3億5,416萬2千元,主要是調整待遇及本部市化系統,能夠汰換等經費。"},{"start":6369.246,"end":6386.585,"text":"第二、外交管理的業務編列了兩億五千七百六十三萬七千元,較一百一十三年度增列三千零九十一萬四千元,主要是以多元媒體管道辦理公眾溝通的業務及制播國情影片所需的經費。"},{"start":6387.546,"end":6392.531,"text":"第三、住外機構的業務編列35億3,396萬1千元較113年度增列了3億5,453萬8千元主要是住外單位管設的租金﹐房屋、建築、養護以及內外戶調等經費"},{"start":6407.506,"end":6411.189,"text":"第四國際會議及交流編列25億1716萬9千元較113年度增列1億7981萬5千元主要係高層出訪及訪兵接待所需資金費。第五國際合作及關懷"},{"start":6426.002,"end":6451.292,"text":"編列一百二十四億八千零八十九萬九千元,較一百一十三年度檢列七億七千一百九十三萬元,主要是檢列雙邊合作計劃等經費。第六,一般建築與設備,編列八億七千三百八十六萬六千元,其中包括鑄雪梨、丹士樹管設構置計劃八億三千一百四十九萬六千元,"},{"start":6451.952,"end":6452.493,"text":"臺灣住外機構館長坐車及公務車30輛及國內"},{"start":6457.827,"end":6464.449,"text":"公務車五輛經費4237萬元第一倍均編列7000萬元與113年度相同在領事事務局稅出預算方面共編列15億9117萬7千元各項計畫的編列情形簡要如下一般行政編列3億792萬2千元"},{"start":6482.276,"end":6503.352,"text":"那麼第二領事事務的管理編列12億8175萬5000元那麼第一倍金編列150萬元與前一年相同那麼最後在外交與國際事務學院的稅出預算方面共編列了1億363萬2000元各計劃編列情況簡要如下一般行政編列"},{"start":6510.404,"end":6527.296,"text":"八千兩百九十萬元外交領事人員獎席編列一千八百五十七萬七千元一般建築及設備編列兩百零三萬元那地域費金編列十二萬五千元那麼"},{"start":6528.766,"end":6556.934,"text":"以上以上這個本部主管稅出預算的綜合說明在凍結經費的原則下本部將持續與邦交國維繫邦誼提升與理念相近國家的實質關係爭取參與區域經濟整合未來將兼顧政府財政與外交需求持續推動員外工作以善盡臺灣的國際責任最後結語我國當前外交處境嚴峻推動對外"},{"start":6557.954,"end":6581.721,"text":"工作也面臨許多的變數外交部會全力推動總和外交以不斷踏實前進對區域及國際社會做出具體的貢獻以上說明如有不清楚或需要補充的部分再請各位委員先進多加指教也懇請各位委員全力支持本部各項施政以及預算非常的謝謝"},{"start":6589.79,"end":6594.799,"text":"公開報告結束接續以秘密會議進行機密報告請議事人員清場"},{"start":7579.585,"end":7583.027,"text":"現在補充介紹王定宇召委沈博洋委員林楚瑩委員羅美琳委員現在確認議事錄請問在場的委員對上次的會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處議事錄確定"},{"start":7610.334,"end":7615.797,"text":"現在登記公開質詢的委員開始詢答請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":7639.205,"end":7661.432,"text":"部長早部長委員早是部長我們今天我們今天外交國防委員會的會議因為部長您早上一個很重要的這個行程所以演到10點才開始那外界都很好奇就是說部長您消失了這一個小時到底去了哪裡那部長這可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":7663.291,"end":7687.386,"text":"跟委員報告今天早上因為在安排總統出訪的事宜因為在三天就要出訪因為剛好跟友邦聯繫還有相關的工作就是要在這個時間能夠確認所以呢跟委員會請假的一小時感謝委員的這個支持"},{"start":7688.366,"end":7716.574,"text":"是之前都外界都在想說我們這次出訪到底會不會過境到其他的友邦這個部分有確定嗎?我們這次出訪主要是太平洋的三個友邦包括馬紹爾群島、土瓦魯和帛琉共和國那這個部分已經有對外正式的宣布那這個相關的行程的安排因為我們是以安全"},{"start":7718.439,"end":7729.643,"text":"尊嚴、便利和舒適這四項原則來進行安排那寫者的部分你們還會再透露嗎?今天下午據說有個記者會是不是?下午國安會"},{"start":7735.132,"end":7753.571,"text":"主要關於出訪的行程主要就是府方那邊在試食的時候會再對外說明進一步的資訊所以還要再進一步說明就對了比較細節的部分是不是對所以現在不方便透露"},{"start":7754.635,"end":7767.361,"text":"對就是在由總統府方面會針對出訪事情相關的這些就是基於這四大原則之下安排的交通還有相關的這個行程"},{"start":7773.417,"end":7798.963,"text":"本期就要進入到今天我想要問的這個主題像昨天、前天中國的海警船已經連續兩天侵擾了我國的金門水域那像金門這個陷阱制水域其實在1992年其實我們國防部就有依據兩個人民條例發射到現在可是中國在1996年的時候首度公布了這個領海基線把我們金門馬祖都列入他們的領海基線裡面"},{"start":7800.383,"end":7825.173,"text":"可是經過金門214事件之後中國國台辦公開否認金門禁縣制水域的存在甚至最近我們看到有很多的侵擾的行為比如說不斷的侵入我們的海域甚至到11月26日為止我們看到海巡署有提到說今年已經累計到54次"},{"start":7826.753,"end":7829.216,"text":"這些種種的侵擾行為當然就是中國意圖揭示我國對於金門水域的管轄權甚至建立中國管轄執法的事實以支撐中國宣稱擁有金門水域主權的訴求"},{"start":7841.51,"end":7863.55,"text":"所以我方在這個法律敘事戰跟中國要如何來抗衡我們所擔心的是中國會不會未來將這個模式複製到我國其他的離島周邊的海域甚至是臺灣本島的這個海域那目前我們看到這個中國海警的侵擾海巡署他都有這個應處的這個措施來維護我國海域安全跟主權"},{"start":7864.07,"end":7864.09,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":7878.712,"end":7895.066,"text":"謝謝委員有關於中國在特別是今年出總統大選後展開了一系列的混合戰特別是灰色地帶的作戰那造成新常態"},{"start":7896.689,"end":7920.7,"text":"這裏面包括對於我們在海峽中線或者是我們的臨階區涉及到的這些像金門附近的禁縣制水域有侵擾有關於這方面海巡署也有因應包括驅離還有監控國防部也根據相關的法令"},{"start":7921.6,"end":7947.47,"text":"就是我們根據兩岸關係條例公告的限制禁止水域範圍那麼來作為就是我們就是依法這個行政的一個依據那這個部分在發生一些衝突事件之後也呢就是按照這個我們的相關的"},{"start":7948.951,"end":7965.098,"text":"作業準則來辦理那在國際上呢我們對於這樣的現象就是中共採取所謂的新常態就是所謂的new normal那事實上已經在不管是正式的演習那甚至是有些勤勞行為那"},{"start":7967.419,"end":7983.513,"text":"我是把它歸納為其實是他們的三戰這個是法律戰那這個輿論戰還有這個心理戰那這些都發動之後他以這個準時軍事甚至是是軍事的行為進行這一個包括"},{"start":7987.236,"end":7988.997,"text":"對於這些新的發展我們在國際宣傳上就是認為說他們在為做武力犯台"},{"start":8007.166,"end":8013.574,"text":"做準備（包括像2758號（這個有關聯合國的決議（這把臺海內海化（把臺灣內政化（這些都是相關性（所以為什麼我們最近得到國際上（對我們很多的聲援（包括對聯大2758號決議（中共的曲解（"},{"start":8027.75,"end":8043.081,"text":"各個包括歐洲議會還有一些國家的國會都通過有我的一個決議也是因為要透過這個跟理念相近國家的一個合作包括所謂的航行自由權以這個具體行動去說明台海是一個自由航行是一個國際的公海"},{"start":8053.428,"end":8066.937,"text":"其他當然我們的因應措施在第一線的以海巡署他們針對金門地區這個水域上面的這些涉及到的爭端都有所因應"},{"start":8068.746,"end":8069.627,"text":"法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰 法律戰、議論戰、心理戰"},{"start":8087.8,"end":8088.521,"text":"政府總預算案"},{"start":8101.721,"end":8126.117,"text":"那其實以這個中共的以像這個他的海警法第三次的一個修訂公佈包括對台獨所謂的懲罰的這個22條其實這個都包括剛剛講的這個聯合國大會27582決議其實這些都是以這個所謂的混合戰就是說灰色地帶的作戰"},{"start":8126.957,"end":8155.66,"text":"我們了解,剛才部長您所提的都是了解只是說在國際上到底承不承認這個部分我們就是以具體情報比如自由航行來去說明就是說我們是反對對方是沒錯,因為我剛才有最後一個問題就是說如果情勢持續上升的話我們有沒有辦法提出這個國際仲裁的可能因為基本限制水域跟國際的這個海洋法的內國水域這個是不太一樣所以我們在想說而且我們也不是聯合國海洋公約的這個締約國"},{"start":8156.641,"end":8157.241,"text":"臺灣國際政策部長"},{"start":8177.392,"end":8177.432,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":8195.009,"end":8196.61,"text":"我們也加強我們在不管是國防或新防上的這個準備的工作"},{"start":8223.527,"end":8224.368,"text":"主席好麻煩請部長請您部長"},{"start":8257.253,"end":8274.207,"text":"部長早部長今天剛才若文有提到我們賴總統接下來要出訪的這個部分那想請教一下這一次的出訪的國家主要是選擇在太平洋而非中南美的主要原因是什麼"},{"start":8276.601,"end":8295.036,"text":"我們太平洋有三個邦交國包括馬紹群島、土瓦魯跟帛琉都有來參加我們賴總統的520的就職典禮也有邀請他能夠去訪問另外就是我們國家元首對這個地區的訪問"},{"start":8297.518,"end":8319.365,"text":"上一次也已經是五年前了蔡總統時候是2019年所以呢基於這個不管固邦、隆邦我們希望說能夠在比較短的時間內的一個安排就是以太平洋這個我們的三個邦交國為元首出訪第一次的一個訪問國家"},{"start":8322.048,"end":8341.71,"text":"那部長其實我們國家的元首他出訪那有幾個重要的意義那第一個當然是鞏固我們的邦交但第二個部分就是我們常常看到我們元首會出境的時候也會有過境的外交那想請教一下這一次的過境點大概有可能會是在哪裡"},{"start":8343.031,"end":8362.594,"text":"我們不管是出訪或過境都秉持四大原則那這次在太平洋方面我們當然是安全那這個尊嚴那便利然後舒適大概順序我把它做了一點調整這叫是這地方的交通運輸"},{"start":8364.155,"end":8378.94,"text":"還有整個的情況是有比較大的限制性我們就是必須怎麼這樣在同時一次能夠訪問三個國家做有效的安排"},{"start":8379.7,"end":8389.827,"text":"至於說相關的出訪或有過境的安排等等總統府會再進一步對外有說明再訪問對象國家就是這三國其他的部分會再做說明"},{"start":8395.931,"end":8406.2,"text":"好 那我們就等待這個總統府方的正式說明但是在這個出訪的過程中有沒有掌握到中共會不會什麼樣的干擾比方說在這個趁總統在訪問的時候會不會做出什麼小動作"},{"start":8410.245,"end":8427.196,"text":"是,我們不管國安會或相關的部會單位都有做一些對於情勢的分析那也跟我們的友邦這個密切的聯繫跟必要收的因應"},{"start":8428.357,"end":8446.056,"text":"所以中共在過去幾次我們元首出訪的時候的作為我們也都有納入這一次來做評估所以這個是我們國安單位都有做好妥善的這個準備跟因應"},{"start":8447.165,"end":8473.583,"text":"最後就是說有傳出中共會趁賴總統出訪的時候會有發動相關的軍演甚至是聯合利益界C有掌握這樣的情勢嗎?有這樣的可能性嗎?這個都不能排除這是可能的劇本之一那當然現在的整個國際情勢也是很多的變數我想中共方面也應該都會去就是說評估"},{"start":8475.624,"end":8476.005,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8499.028,"end":8515.628,"text":"有這些包括軍演或是這些比較offensive比較破壞這個海海和平跟穩定的行為"},{"start":8516.649,"end":8527.796,"text":"謝謝部長我最後再補充問一題為什麼會選擇在拜登政府的時期做出訪那不是在新政府的時候出訪有什麼特殊的考量嗎"},{"start":8529.025,"end":8552.434,"text":"我們有機會我們就會安排出發那當然因為先前我想各方面的情勢啊我們的評估以及友邦的邀請的時間那就是在這個就是就是今年的年底那我們也是要配合對方的行程那也有一些國家也在選舉包括像帛琉他們總統大選也剛選完"},{"start":8554.615,"end":8582.412,"text":"那當然周邊國家也有很多各方面他們不管是選舉或者是說在政府交接期間但是我們還是依照我們的往例就是安排出法會彼此溝通來做好對於可能中共的一些激烈的反應因應的做這些準備"},{"start":8583.48,"end":8602.072,"text":"謝謝部長,部長再來就是要提到我們的外交資源的這個配置那今天我剛剛看這些預算書我們大概是有320億的稅出其中有120多億是員外那25億是在做國際會議的部分那部長剛從歐洲回來這次是去幾個國家?"},{"start":8603.809,"end":8630.428,"text":"去比利時、立陶宛跟波蘭三個國家三個國家那我認為我們接下來我們國家面臨的挑戰大概是主要是在印太為主那印太戰略裡面幾個比較重要的參與的國家當然是我們第一島鏈包含這個菲律賓、日本那甚至是韓國還有一些這些南海所在的區域的這些幾個聲索國都有"},{"start":8631.288,"end":8652.043,"text":"當然還有一個很重要的一個大國擁有核子武器的大國是印度那這些國家對我們來講他是生存上面的必需品就是說對我們來說這些國家跟我們是唇齒相依的如果我們少了美國這樣子的夥伴這種跨太平洋的夥伴的支持的話我們在安全上面的保障就會受到影響在外交上面的保障也會受到影響"},{"start":8652.683,"end":8675.104,"text":"所以我們當講到外交資源的配置的時候我很重視一點就是說我們會不會把所有的資源過度的放在幾個國家跟我國的直接利害沒有直接相關的國家那我沒有在說立陶宛跟我們的利害沒有相關但是我必須要講說立陶宛跟我們的價值確實是裡面相近但是對我國的利益它不是絕對的必要性"},{"start":8675.604,"end":8697.405,"text":"所以我們的資源包含會議上面的資源包含我們投入上面的資源跟時間本來就要做有效的配置那比方說歐洲各個國家我最近看到包含我們的國安委秘書長包含這個部長花很多時間在我們中東歐國家或者是在丹麥啊這些裡面相近的國家我都可以肯定但我還是要提醒跟我們生存"},{"start":8698.346,"end":8698.786,"text":"外交部副市長"},{"start":8715.071,"end":8732.737,"text":"不僅只是歐洲國家而已仔細看它在太平洋的這個或者是在這個印太地區它其實都有海外的屬地所以當我們跟歐洲在討論到我們的交流的時候我們必須要思考說這些國家怎麼樣可以跟我們來進行更完整的這個合作"},{"start":8733.537,"end":8760.443,"text":"我記得法國是有7年的建軍計劃這個法國的戰略裡面包括他們有希望說有自由可以自由航行在台海上面他也會直接提出他們的資源所以過去我們跟法國之間不管是在軍事安全上面的合作在外交上面的合作甚至他們直接提到台灣而且是直接支持台灣這是我們必須要重視的一個大過所以我希望未來外交部的資源我們在出訪的時候"},{"start":8762.243,"end":8788.591,"text":"時間有限那資源也有限那我們要選擇對的地方來增加我們的海洋治理區域安全還有太空海域的港資能力那在歐洲裡面有幾個國家有這樣子的能力的我們當然可以加強交往但是有一些可能沒有跟我們直接利害相關儘管說跟我們價值相仿但或許包含部長在內包含我們的國安首長在內要有效配置自己的時間跟資源"},{"start":8791.933,"end":8805.852,"text":"法國的七年建軍法還有在太平洋地區有很多屬地。自由航行法國也是主力主要的國家。另外其實包括英國他們的五眼聯盟或者是所謂的這個"},{"start":8808.515,"end":8808.916,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8829.548,"end":8829.968,"text":"委員提到的第一島鏈"},{"start":8845.282,"end":8845.502,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":8871.55,"end":8875.371,"text":"部長請回接下來我們請王定宇、趙偉上台質詢謝謝趙偉,麻煩林佳龍部長請林部長"},{"start":8899.071,"end":8918.092,"text":"謝謝委員所以早上你在進行我們賴清德總統三天後出訪的一些行程安排那本席這邊就有關這個出訪有些問題要就教於您那我要特別提醒外交部當你看日本石破茂總理他改選之後日本的媒體也跑出一堆"},{"start":8918.933,"end":8920.913,"text":"有關賴總統出訪南太平洋友邦"},{"start":8944.3,"end":8954.994,"text":"路透社報導說中共可能會在臺灣臨近地區發動軍演就這一題我要先提醒外交部中國會不會發動軍演根本不是新聞"},{"start":8957.568,"end":8957.908,"text":"中共的軍事騷擾"},{"start":8983.382,"end":9011.832,"text":"不管對第一島鏈國家對菲律賓、對台灣、對日韓那是幾年經常性存在的只是說他這一次會不會用別種形式政治意涵的透露那目前就我們國家外交部就國家發言人那對於賴總統出訪期間印太地區第一島鏈的和平穩定以及中共的軍事力量展現我們國家立場是什麼我們就是"},{"start":9013.564,"end":9040.475,"text":"因為中共的威脅是如同委員講的其實是一直在而且不斷在加壓中那是構成了新常態所以我們當然跟友好國家我們會彼此彼此我們平常情報交換啊友好國家什麼這個都會我的意思說如果中共在我們元首民選總統出訪是喜事對全世界來講這只有增加互動和平繁榮以外"},{"start":9041.721,"end":9060.138,"text":"沒有壞處的可是有個流氓國家用這個來聲勢的時候到時候我們國家外交部會不會正式對外發表聲明如果有的話我們一定是會發表聲明那最主要是說我們要讓國人瞭解因為中共這也是認知作戰的一部分不管從520到雙10那他這個會不會有延轉"},{"start":9066.668,"end":9073.251,"text":"轉戰那是另外一件事情我們必須要從他的這些作為當中去了解那另外一個就是說這個"},{"start":9077.145,"end":9087.689,"text":"因為這一次如果中國把他的軍事行動我再強調一次他平常就有他把他軍事行動把他標記成一個政治的口號他是有他的目的比方說美國的政權正在交替"},{"start":9104.014,"end":9127.67,"text":"日本的內閣也剛組成南側的菲律賓內部現在也有一些問題所以他這個動作上我是希望我們外交部做好一些發言的準備比方說而且橫向連線很重要像就我們像國防部瞭解起來目前沒有看到中共部分有軍力調動的情形所以演習可能就是演習所以"},{"start":9128.951,"end":9152.173,"text":"誇大他的效果搞不好也中他計小看他也沒必要就是料敵從寬確實如委員所講像以戰備警巡他幾乎每週都有他現在只是透過宣傳怎麼樣去做成一種認知作戰就好像沈伯陽每一天會從301走過去一樣然後他取個名字叫做沈伯陽出巡一樣他只是用那個名詞去強調一件事情他一直是在那裡啦"},{"start":9153.434,"end":9181.926,"text":"這個藉什麼委員的名字用一下好我這一題先到這裡打住我要詢問一下我們賴總統出訪的問題第一個會不會在我們現在知道出訪三個友邦那可能會過境夏威夷除了這個已知以外有沒有未知的國家可能會去訪問可是這次還是不能講就不要講我的意思說過境美國南泰三盟邦這四個地方我們大概知道了有沒有這四個已知以外的未知"},{"start":9183.231,"end":9197.501,"text":"沒有這一次沒有第二個這一次會過境夏威夷吧這個總統府方面會就是對外統一說明那如果會過境啊因為過境對我們來講已經不是突破了"},{"start":9199.434,"end":9227.515,"text":"假設會過境的話就是我是說四大原則嘛安全、尊嚴、便利跟舒適對我們會以這個方向來做我們想要關切的是外交動作比方說到夏威夷的話能不能到我們的住處看一下你點頭你現在是說會這裡的建議啦我的建議第二個我們有一個聯兵營在夏威夷受訓能不能去鼓勵我們關兵一下"},{"start":9229.973,"end":9248.775,"text":"這也是你的看法都很寶貴所以實現的就是我算得很準而已好那再來除了一些智庫參眾議員以外那AIT理事主席通常例行會除非他有事有沒有會有一些行政層級的訪兵"},{"start":9250.95,"end":9272.499,"text":"因為這個有關過境的事宜如果是有安排是什麼樣的內容我想這個都涉及到雙邊也涉及到總統府他們會針對事實的對外說明在蔡英文總統任內過境其實跟以往的過境已經不太一樣有點像入境訪問了"},{"start":9274.541,"end":9299.062,"text":"記者跟總統不用分開飯店,記者可以讀麥克風,可以演講,賴總統這個規格不會減少吧?就是我剛剛提到的這些過去的慣例還有基於這些出訪或過境的原則,都是……簡單講,從蔡英文總統到賴清德總統,我們過境美國的規格不會減少、不會降低嗎?"},{"start":9300.745,"end":9328.793,"text":"沒有什麼這個會我們台美關係就是非常的如磐石般的堅定啊對就是說其實我們國際外交在過去這8年其實有相當大的突破尤其去Denver那一次所以我是希望這一次如果在國際上有些展現比方說去代表處去看自己的代表處是有意義的比方說去慰勞我們受訓的官兵這也有意義一個是外交一個是安全這個我期待後續的消息接下來我在"},{"start":9329.873,"end":9343.96,"text":"問一下CPTPP的消息這個是PoliticalPolitical報了一個消息我覺得蠻特別第一個他說這一次的CPTPP的會議會把台灣的陸會案因為中國因素暫割"},{"start":9346.141,"end":9367.766,"text":"那就外交部因為你們是負責這個推動這個的主責單位目前有這個情形嗎?最近當然因為加拿大做輪值主席國那各會員在開會那就涉及到有沒有新要申請加入的國家可以列入工作小組那一個工作小組成立之後才會進行詳細內容的這個協商"},{"start":9371.907,"end":9393.539,"text":"那個英國就是送件之後很快速成立工作小組他現在已經完成陸會了嘛現在12國了我的意思是說台灣申請陸會也相當時間了有沒有如同這個political這一個其實這個媒體也算大媒體了他報導的說因為中國因素台灣陸會這一次戰歌不是永遠戰歌他說這一次會議就不處理有沒有這個現象"},{"start":9394.84,"end":9420.191,"text":"對因為他還沒有成立工作小組不管是臺灣或中國那即使是外面報導的其他國家也要先成立工作小組那現在就是有奧克蘭三原則臺灣是都很符合第一個是高標準第二個沒有不良的貿易的這個記錄奧克蘭三原第三點是共識決但共識決我們現在經過加拿大今年輪主席國的一個解釋其實要促進效率而不能做變成在擋別人"},{"start":9420.871,"end":9441.163,"text":"所以這一個解釋是我覺得對台灣來講也就是說共識是應該你內容符合之後最後大家來決而不是說要不要成立工作小組是要全體同意而且現在有一個就是所謂的pre-consultation就是這個在工作小組之前也可以開始展開雙邊之商我們已經展開了台灣有開始"},{"start":9446.327,"end":9465.386,"text":"跟一些對象國家就是會員國我們是有一些諮商沒有因為他就是開一個有一個燈然後我們可以跟對方開始去溝通但是還沒有成立正式的工作小組還沒有成立所以這一次的會議大概也不會成立"},{"start":9467.466,"end":9480.99,"text":"在開會當中這兩天還不確定嗎今天明天我們還沒有成立工作小組但這一次的CPTPP的會會不會讓台灣成立工作小組未知但是允許pre consultation就是預先協商我們現在12國跟幾國進行預商呢"},{"start":9484.497,"end":9491.884,"text":"奧克蘭三原則就是遵守貿易規範的良好紀錄台灣OK了我們立法院在上一屆會期也完成修法我們已經符合高標準的貿易這個規範了我們現在只差一個叫做成員國的共識決"},{"start":9511.733,"end":9540.342,"text":"這個共識決是要大家同意或者沒有人反對這又不一樣喔沒有錯大家同意跟沒有人反對這種consensus他的mega就很多了所以反對的人要說理由啦你不能說所以我要提的就是說如果因為中國因素被暫割這個絕對是不對的因為中國永遠無法那個無法符合那個高標準貿易規範如果中國永遠無法達到那個規範變成綁架台灣把他帶進CPTPP這也不行那"},{"start":9541.302,"end":9569.149,"text":"擋住台灣不能參加更不行所以中國因素這是一個貿易團體貿易組織應該就每一個要參加的會員成員國去審視他的條件如果錯誤的把它跟中國因素綁在一起的話那我們台灣可能你要等到中國達標那一天不知道哪一年哪一月了那我最後只請問一個問題根據這一個媒體的報導說馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見這跟我去訪問聽起來的感覺不太一樣"},{"start":9570.089,"end":9594.994,"text":"我跟委員說明其實沒有人反對台灣現在只是說你所謂共識決要不要台灣去獲得所謂百分之百現在11加1嘛那個英國是今年加入就是說他這個加拿大做人質主席國對奧克蘭三原則的解釋是讓台灣也可以諮商以外呢你反對的國家你要獎勵理由比如說如果那個反對我們的國家自由貿易的程度比台灣還低"},{"start":9595.774,"end":9597.074,"text":"我剛才問的問題你沒有回答就是馬來西亞跟新加坡有意見嗎?"},{"start":9625.287,"end":9643.579,"text":"我沒有得到這樣的訊息說他們是不贊成因為我從新加坡那邊看起來其實新加坡跟台灣的經貿還算蠻正常的兩國還有FTA他怎麼有意見那馬來西亞當然是另外一回事啦我跟委員報告其實目前我們有稍微諮商過的都是正面的啦"},{"start":9643.959,"end":9644.319,"text":"接下來我們請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":9679.17,"end":9682.397,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":9690.728,"end":9706.893,"text":"部長早知道您即將要陪賴總統出訪不過因為隨著這個出訪之前所許多的這個包括被帶風向的操作跟操弄剛剛我延續王定宇委員所提到的很多的這個以美論的聲音就會出來那麼其中當然"},{"start":9709.754,"end":9729.706,"text":"有關於這次出訪我們主要是去南泰國家嘛那麼很多的訊息在之前聽到說總統要去南泰之後以美論就開始出來了就說或是依賴論就講說啊怎麼沒有過境這個美國的本土因為現在媒體所曝光出來的地點可能是夏威夷或是其他地區但是如果我們攤開這個時間表以及地圖來看的話就會發現說"},{"start":9735.249,"end":9758.694,"text":"從台灣出發到南泰國家你要特別繞到美國我為什麼講特別繞到美國因為那個真的就是到另外一個方向跟方位去了所以我就想問這個到底是地理不好還是長大了以後方向感不好如果我們真的沒有到美國本土只是過境這個所謂的其他的這個所謂美國境外像夏威夷這個地方這個可以去發酵以美論嗎這個部長怎麼看"},{"start":9762.611,"end":9774.962,"text":"其實原美論是沒有必要啦我們跟美國的關係不只是說台灣關係法這些基礎最主要是說這些年是跨黨派而且跨行政立法都很跟台灣都很友好"},{"start":9777.004,"end":9793.258,"text":"出訪就是基本上我們是有一個對方國家的邀請或有一些重大的這個節慶或者是說就職典禮那以我們今年來講就是南泰這三個國家在"},{"start":9794.119,"end":9797.061,"text":"而且算是鞏固邦誼再加上其實本席也特別整理了如果是以上次的話有總統出訪南泰地區也是2019年了也就是小英總統在任的時候"},{"start":9818.613,"end":9835.179,"text":"所以說這一次包括像我們帛琉的這個會數人他在11月連任成功就像您所說的從這個出發啟程到馬紹爾、土瓦魯再到帛琉其實這個路線就是很順的那麼我們當然也希望這一次的出訪能夠成功對我們的邦誼能夠更鞏固"},{"start":9838.14,"end":9849.227,"text":"不過呢有一個最新的訊息呢是就像我剛剛提到的這個以美論現在就算我們沒有以美但是對於川普現在上台之後包括他現在任用了一個所謂的關稅大將來擔任他的相關的這個內閣成員"},{"start":9854.99,"end":9858.871,"text":"就有CNN最新今天早上更新的是說川普可能透過保護主義然後開始增加他的關稅那麼其中他會對他的貿易前十大的這些所謂國家來出手那麼"},{"start":9871.855,"end":9874.077,"text":"根據CNN的報告台灣也在這前十大之中那麼當然這個是屬於貿易的問題可能問經濟部會更適合可是某種程度這是不是也是台美之間在外交上必須關注的部分部長你怎麼來看"},{"start":9888.927,"end":9912.059,"text":"會不會接下來因為川普任用了這個他的關稅大將格里爾那麼再加上CNN的報導被台灣媒體引用了那產業界就會擔心囉目前台灣是屬於對美貿易的第六名部長您看其實台美的經貿的關係是建立在包括法治或者是透明的基礎上那"},{"start":9915.795,"end":9931.132,"text":"這個關稅啦或者是相關的這些貿易的逆差本來就是在國家之間啦就是它的一個政策的工具那我們怎麼去增加因為貿易逆差很大我們怎麼增加對美國的投資這個是再就採購"},{"start":9932.426,"end":9944.916,"text":"所以這些本來就是我們應該要做的方向所以這個大概跟川普總統商量之後更重視這方面那我們當然會在政策上我們有一些工具也會來朝這方向"},{"start":9949.399,"end":9970.792,"text":"有進一步的機會來跟美方來做溝通因為就像今天媒體報導的嘛因為這個賴總統要到南泰出訪聯合利建C也要出來了但是許多的相關的軍事或外交專家都認為其實聯合利建C對準的恐怕不只是台灣更是對美國來立威甚至對美國來展示軍事的肌肉"},{"start":9971.312,"end":9995.076,"text":"所以對於現在美國他所選取的內閣都是所謂的抗中大將那麼如果是站在抗中的立場來講台灣絕對是美國非常重要的一個夥伴就是如同您說的如果讓美國再次強大的話台灣不能置身事外而且台灣必須是夥伴那這個部分外交部有沒有機會跟現在川普的新內閣來針對我們所關心的安全或經貿問題來做相關的這個溝通"},{"start":9998.927,"end":10016.718,"text":"是有溝通我想跨黨派的那最主要是說其實我們每一次的元首出訪中共都會有一些動作那是輕重的問題那在這一個美國政府交接的期間當然北京他也必須要考慮他任何的動作的弦外之音"},{"start":10018.738,"end":10041.404,"text":"因為川普現在有他的一個中國政策的方向包括提高關稅甚至在選舉期間講了很重的話如果他們中共侵台的話他要轟炸北京就是說我想在這一個都不確定的階段這個充滿了各種的一個不確定那大家都是很謹慎可是"},{"start":10042.389,"end":10061.114,"text":"我是我們的判斷是中共還是會有動作只是說這個什麼樣的方式比如說他們每週也差不多都有這個所謂戰備警巡那只要再加強一下那就是認知作戰那有時候是基於國內的消費有時候是真的是有對台灣我們不能排除他遊訓轉戰"},{"start":10062.814,"end":10082.111,"text":"因為要看到部隊集結所以我們都會做各種的情境的想定跟因應那另外我想補充剛剛回答這個委員有一關我們總統出訪南泰三國最主要是這三個國家除了來我們台灣參加就職典禮或是雙十國慶以外他們都是今年選上的"},{"start":10083.127,"end":10106.047,"text":"（包括馬紹爾群島（海尼總統（還有土瓦魯的總理（以及柏油的總統（所以其實今年都是一個新的開始（所以我們也認為一次能夠就三個藍太友邦做出訪的對象（那現在主題也是跟我們現在的龍邦政策有關（所以說繁榮藍島智慧永續"},{"start":10107.728,"end":10135.444,"text":"好,但是呢本席也要稍微來問一下就是我們有關於這個大家現在非常關注的是有關於聽台灣的部分那麼加強這個所謂反對2758號決議文我想這一次因為我們在十二強打上了冠軍之後聽台灣成為這個不只是團結台灣啦甚至於是全球非常矚目的這個關鍵字喔那麼我們在有關於國際組織2025年我們編列了三億六千九百"},{"start":10136.224,"end":10142.99,"text":"44萬元的經費那麼在這些經費的運用上面有沒有機會讓聽台灣能夠更響亮我想現在講台灣或講聽台灣是一個共通的語言那在這裡的話外交部針對在聯合國或者是其他國際組織的經費跟運用上面有沒有想要乘勝追擊尤其是在您所提到的價值外交的部分"},{"start":10162.078,"end":10184.532,"text":"確實這一次我想運動選手他在得到冠軍的時候自發的去呈現就是台灣因為這是很自然的而且很中性的名稱那我們在國際上也是如此包括我們最近國際組織包括參加聯合國我們用chip in with Taiwan和台灣一起拼那這個過去也常用台灣can help"},{"start":10185.192,"end":10202.603,"text":"那是我覺得聽台灣如果說大家願意加入台灣做一個價值同盟這樣的一個支持我覺得很多人國際的友人或組織我想這個也是我們很歡迎的所以本席只是利用質詢也特別提醒就是我們既然是預算會期那麼在這個國際組織的國際參與當中有做一些預算的編列那麼"},{"start":10208.686,"end":10209.987,"text":"馬文君委員上台諮詢"},{"start":10239.986,"end":10243.227,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請林部長請林部長部長早委員好部長剛剛您在來委員會之前有先進了總統府嘛那在建了高層以後對於台灣加入CPTPP被擱置的這個問題是不是有討論在剛剛"},{"start":10271.128,"end":10288.182,"text":"針對臺灣爭取加入CPT一直都有在推動也有在跟府院報告那現在行政院總談判代表楊振尼政委他也都在協調跨部會"},{"start":10289.383,"end":10300.468,"text":"部長我知道我現在是說因為這個才剛出現的新聞那在您來之前因為是重要的會議那也是例行性的可是這個議題有沒有被討論然後討論了什麼"},{"start":10306.062,"end":10334.063,"text":"最主要是針對出訪相關的安排所以CPTPP被擱置的這部分你們聯談我們另外有討論在行政院的層次所以今天沒有談我們談判總代表還有我們跨部會都有針對這兩天密切注意這個裡面就涉及到不是我們已經確定被擱置了嗎我們就事論事就是所謂擱置我跟委員報所謂擱置不是他是要成立工作小組才能夠進入具體的協商"},{"start":10335.104,"end":10356.581,"text":"包括 雙邊那現在也可以展開就是前協商的協商我想大家都已經在這些事務上面尤其在外交事務上我相信你也非常熟悉所以我們不用再去講這些細節現在出來的消息包括主辦的加拿大其實他們也都提出這樣子還有所有的成員國"},{"start":10358.002,"end":10379.86,"text":"其實都已經有提到這樣就是說我們在這一次這個案子其實我們本來我們也是滿懷希望因為我們之前要去之前也是說加拿大這一次應該由他們來在他那裡主辦的話對我們是有史以來可能最友善最有利的一個條件可是他現在被擱置其實這就是事實"},{"start":10381.241,"end":10393.089,"text":"我們現在想要知道的是我們應該要怎麼做因為剛剛如果CPTPP被擱置這樣的問題因為包括顯然我不知道您就部長的回答是我們剛剛是沒有談這個問題是嗎"},{"start":10395.748,"end":10400.691,"text":"我跟委員報告因為就說沒有擱置這個問題是因為他如果我們去申請不管先後他要成立工作小組部長我們沒有要在這裡討論這個因為這個不是我們這裡可以決定的我現在要知道的是當我們目前至少到目前你說他還在開到目前為止我們是被擱置的狀況我們在剛剛在府院在大家討論的時候有沒有提到我們應該要怎麼去因應"},{"start":10425.647,"end":10441.315,"text":"這個部分有沒有剛剛我到府內沒有討論CPTPP這是行政院總談判代表跨部會的我們都只有一個群組在進行那這個是沒有討論的我跟委員講齁我們去申請他必須要成立工作小組然後現在開放"},{"start":10442.315,"end":10445.998,"text":"部長這個我們知道這個我們知道我們現在只看結果齁現在目前我們得到訊息是這樣如果說剛剛我們本來以為這個是非常重要的因為每次在審預算或者在對國人提到CPTPP的時候這個對於我們面對因為CPTPP所有的"},{"start":10463.073,"end":10467.354,"text":"這個成員組織其實他已經占了所有全球經濟的15%而且是我們很重要的一個機會因為我們沒有機會參加其他的這些貿易組織不容易所以我們把機會放或者希望都放在這裡那你現在如果說已經面臨到說這個案子被擱置"},{"start":10483.038,"end":10500.497,"text":"我們還沒有在這麼重要的一個會議上面做討論我不知道為什麼你要編這麼高額的預算因為顯然他不被重視或不重要是這樣嗎我跟委員講不是被擱置我要清楚的說明他是要我們目前接觸的對象國家都是支持的"},{"start":10501.198,"end":10509.085,"text":"只是他必須要成立工作小組這一步那因為生前奧克蘭三原則之後加拿大有一個解釋讓我們可以成立pre consultation部長我們現在收到的訊息包括外媒包括我們自己國內的媒體就是這麼說那你要去講工作小組那到最後如果沒有你要怎麼說我們現在要講的是"},{"start":10524.498,"end":10527.261,"text":"蔡前總統曾經形容加入CPTPP是台灣邁向全球自由貿易關鍵的一步如果這個是你們剛剛你不好在這裡說你們剛剛有討論或者你們根本連討論都沒有我認為其實讓國人已經有這樣子的一個"},{"start":10545.659,"end":10548.761,"text":"我希望委員能夠來瞭解問題啦我知道問題啊你的問題啊問題是美國本來是有的啊他是退掉了嘛先CPTPP大家已經知道"},{"start":10573.553,"end":10580.642,"text":"我知道美國是TPP現在因為他退出才是由日本下去他們做這樣的主導你要去講這個部分顯然你怕面對問題因為如果另外具外媒的消息台灣對報告"},{"start":10594.233,"end":10599.219,"text":"我希望你們尊重我們這樣子的我們一直很希望你可以就這個問題來回答你剛剛回答是回答什麼你不要留那麼多錢"},{"start":10609.631,"end":10614.813,"text":"中國一直都會是一個問題台灣跟中國是因為政治的議題然後就被擱置了中國不會消失所以所以外媒就是這麼說那你去跟外媒說你不用跟我說我們看到的不是這樣那你的結果你的什麼資訊你現在就是有被討論嗎你有被討論嗎你有被討論嗎如果這一次如果我們沒有被納入討論我們甚至還是被擱置你要不要下台"},{"start":10638.581,"end":10641.343,"text":"委員你誤會了問題我幫你說明我不是誤會問題我現在在理解問題你今天如果你當一個外交部長然後只是會宣傳你到立陶宛去或者帶了這樣的一個歐洲像我們"},{"start":10654.514,"end":10659.44,"text":"你到立法院去然後我們再問這個問題CPTPP現在已經要審預算的一個階段如果你用這樣的態度我覺得你已經在敷衍我們你比較急一點喔我沒有急阿我剛剛是很溫和的問"},{"start":10673.456,"end":10692.251,"text":"這是因為你一直在輕忽我們的問題沒有我是很誠懇我做過立委我知道我真的很想跟委員對話那你可以講啊好現在讓你講就是說他有一個程序要成立工作小組我們現在爭取大部分的國家我們接觸都支持沒有反對所以有一些報導是錯誤的"},{"start":10693.792,"end":10699.597,"text":"來個報導是錯誤的來個報導是錯誤的就是所謂的被擱置現在加拿大今年做主...加拿大有討論這個案子嗎我跟委員說明加拿大今年有一個解釋五月的時候做出來的就是說在成立正式工作小組之間也可以做諮商所以我們台灣現在跟有一半的國家都諮商他們都支持"},{"start":10715.85,"end":10742.609,"text":"新加坡跟馬來西亞有沒有支持?新加坡跟馬來西亞你不是跟他做諮商嗎?你現在又不能聽他講那諮商的結果你告訴我們諮商的結果他們沒有反對阿有沒有支持阿?我們要支持我們不是要沒有反對他們有沒有支持?他們有沒有支持?反對者要提理由因為他們都沒有理由所以沒有對台灣反對他們有沒有支持?"},{"start":10743.51,"end":10767.239,"text":"所以支持是要成立工作小組這件事情要在大會裡面去決定那你覺得為什麼他們這一次成立工作小組如果有政治的干擾也可以做支柵為什麼這一次哥斯大力加因為就加拿大的說法他們說目前準備最充分的其實就是台灣跟哥斯大力加可是哥斯大力加已經被同意了那你覺得最大的原因是什麼"},{"start":10767.699,"end":10775.543,"text":"其實齁 都被同意啦阿只是我們要成立工作小組阿沒有人反對台灣參加他要成立工作小組這件事情成立工作小組去審查是代表"},{"start":10786.784,"end":10808.232,"text":"哥斯大力家可不可以參加因為他就這幾個嘛都可以申請啦阿要成立工作小組才能審查啦哥斯大力家可不可以參加都有資格去申請啦他可以參加嗎這一次到目前為止就你得到的資訊有沒有因為我們有派人在CPTPP我們有派人在CPTPP哥斯大力家有沒有被同意了"},{"start":10809.224,"end":10819.695,"text":"委員現在是進行程序性還沒有進到實時審查至少目前他們已經有被討論他是不是已經有基本上有被同意因為所有的都有共識是不是是不是啊如果委員給我一分鐘我給你全世界"},{"start":10823.752,"end":10832.419,"text":"你不用給我全世界你只要給台灣人有機會進入CPTPP這個是有期待的目的可以達成可是現在顯然聽你講話我們沒有辦法做這樣的期待原來其實我跟你的"},{"start":10840.845,"end":10841.946,"text":"因為你就是做外交部長你本來就要面對問題我現在講的是我們現在同時有兩個 包括中國"},{"start":10861.517,"end":10866.02,"text":"包括我們台灣,它現在就是因為台灣跟中國已經有降低的問題,所以我們用擱置,這種寒冷已經是已經存在的問題,你也都不敢回答,這樣你就沒辦法繼續處理這些事情。"},{"start":10878.729,"end":10886.331,"text":"可是到底人家已經有達到這樣我們台灣跟他是一樣的程度喔我們也是準備的非常充分可是我們沒有的原因是因為政治的問題所以你必須要面對問題你是新上任的我們本來期待你有一個新的作為然後可以好好的做可是顯然也不是那一分鐘麻煩你用書面給大家交代你不用給我全世界麻煩你給台灣人更大的期待跟機會謝謝"},{"start":10905.196,"end":10906.597,"text":"接下來請林益君委員"},{"start":10937.748,"end":10940.83,"text":"中美洲銀行成立的目的是不是為協助中美洲地區的區域整合及經濟上面的發展?對"},{"start":10965.683,"end":10992.991,"text":"所以其實我們在那上面有看到他有跟臺灣企業公司有一些連結所以各式的基礎工程都是可以看到臺灣團隊的身影包括工隊工部門還有是工隊師部門之間都是有一些連結而且日益都是提升了而我國就是在114年度有編列外交部的預算書中有深化參與中美洲銀行列在第五目的國際合作及關懷向"},{"start":10994.071,"end":11014.715,"text":"有一個加強雙邊及多邊合作的對外的捐助2億3900多萬元本席在現在有幾個問題想要請教部長第一個就是請問台灣現在對中美洲開發銀行總認股的金額是多少還有實際已經繳付的股款還有持股的比例是多少呢來我請同仁我們現在的占比跟數字來說明一下"},{"start":11021.445,"end":11049.984,"text":"報告委員,我們現在佔的股數的比例是11.3%,我們現在是它最大的持股成員國,就是區域外的持股會員國。所以我們現在就是台灣是現在中美洲開發銀行最大的持股成員國,是不是?對。好,那部長我想請問一下,你是否了解中美洲開發銀行在我國已經發行了多少的金額的債券呢?詳細的數字來,我請同仁說明一下。是報告委員,大概是3億左右。"},{"start":11051.089,"end":11054.366,"text":"那他在202121年的時候是不是在臺北101大樓還設立了辦事處?"},{"start":11058.815,"end":11062.317,"text":"那外交部在114年編列有關中美洲開發銀行的兩億三千九百多萬元的預算是準備用在哪裡呢?而且預算書上面沒有明確的說明也沒有說明這些用途而且還留下為什麼呢?然後我還有請問部長除了這些入股金以外據外傳外交部還要再另外援助中美洲開發銀行的金額超過兩億美元"},{"start":11085.692,"end":11088.618,"text":"是否屬實?請部長誠實回答,不要欺騙國會。"},{"start":11096.943,"end":11115.148,"text":"報告委員我們是跟中美洲銀行從2021年起我們成立了一個雙邊基金那每年是提供100萬美元主要是就是說協助我們在中美洲地區的友邦目前是瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯他們就透過中美洲銀行我們來增進雙邊關係另外協助他們的經濟發展跟永續"},{"start":11115.928,"end":11116.428,"text":"國際反貪腐組織繼2022年起結合了包括美國哥倫比亞"},{"start":11133.502,"end":11139.725,"text":"大學與中美洲的記者聯盟的整個團體啟動了中美洲的銀行的深入調查所以在這個調查中發現了揭露了中美洲銀行如何將巨額的援助的資金提供給國際上具有爭議的中美洲的獨裁政權像其中有一個例子就是瓜地馬拉的高速公路的計劃自中美洲銀行2008年核准了2.3億的美元的援助之後關於瓜地馬拉"},{"start":11162.717,"end":11166.021,"text":"高速公路這個計畫的爭議和貪腐的問題就不斷的在浮現而且在2017年的時候由聯合國所支持的反貪腐委員會及瓜地馬拉公共部所進行的調查發現這個高速公路的整個計畫遭控貪腐與洗錢的問題"},{"start":11181.98,"end":11191.064,"text":"還有負責基礎的建設的每一個官員（超過10位以上的受惠官員都遭到判刑（而且最主要是在歷經15年之後（到現在這條高速公路還沒有完成（然後還有一個例子是2021年全球陷入了COVID-19的疫情（"},{"start":11199.008,"end":11206.509,"text":"中美洲的銀行宣布提供一筆6億美元的貸款用於薩爾瓦多的中小型企業役後的貸款然後這個貸款卻遭他們總統挪用了近三分之一的款項那部長我們立法院到現在還凍結的這個113年的相關預算今天北席也安排了預算解凍案但你們外交部的書面寫得洋洋灑灑的一大篇承諾要進行改善"},{"start":11226.814,"end":11228.336,"text":"本席稍微看了一下請問部長你們究竟真正的做了些什麼?"},{"start":11231.756,"end":11258.037,"text":"有關於瓜地馬拉這個CA9的公路當然在我上任之前我們現在就是透明化所有委員要求的公布的資料以及我們的援助的項目包括就是近期的我們包括貝里斯跟瓜地馬拉相關的計畫我們都是我們援助的部分都沒有問題"},{"start":11258.757,"end":11276.829,"text":"那是這個銀行所涉及到的一些業務當然被質疑我們也就是說要求這個建立透明化跟監督的機制那在臺灣方面我們作為一個捐助國跟最大的持股國"},{"start":11277.709,"end":11282.952,"text":"我看了中美洲銀行在我國募到的資金其實是全球最高的而且他們的援助基金其實也是都是我們對他們是最高的包括我現在發現南韓比我們還晚加入但是出的錢比我們少援助的金額也比我們少"},{"start":11305.486,"end":11316.912,"text":"但中美洲銀行和南韓卻是已經合作將援助計畫公開上網有平台完整登錄金流還有標案的資訊那請問部長上一任的吳釗燮在卸任就已經承諾要把臺灣援助的計畫在網站上面公開那為什麼臺灣到現在還沒有公開上網呢還是究竟已經公開上網了嗎已經上網了在委員的監督下我們已經把它正式上網"},{"start":11332.271,"end":11359.065,"text":"所以為了避免中美洲銀行貪腐的話這樣好那這樣的話是不是因為如果像這種東西持續下去那是會企圖用我們人民的納稅錢嗎所以我們或許就會挹注在中美洲的銀行會變成一個無底洞所以我是認為說接避者的保護法的主管機關當然不是外交部啦但是部長你是否認同應該有一部讓吹哨者勇敢接避的接避者保護法來讓內部的問題能夠讓他"},{"start":11362.426,"end":11387.814,"text":"外交的工作當然民主時代一定是要接受民意的監督特別是民意代表這個是原則但有一些因為涉及到機密性當然我們也就是會在像今天開的這個機密預算的會議上我們還是會依照國家機密法相關的規定來辦理確保我們的外交能夠不受傷害"},{"start":11388.7,"end":11401.291,"text":"好接下來我在想說在為辛苦的第一線的維繫外交的關係的人員發聲就外交部的說法其實政府推動外管構置的自由的管轍的政策的計畫除了可以節省巨額租金外也有經濟的效益還可以強化主管安全的維護"},{"start":11408.857,"end":11416.841,"text":"而且可以避免外債的因素還是突發的情勢被迫牽管的這種優點所以我現在我看了113年到9月底為止我國駐外管處有112處其中我們自有的只有19處自有的比例其實是只有16.96百分比而外交部從92年開始推動駐外管社構置計畫已經超過了20年以買代租到現在卻只有10"},{"start":11438.49,"end":11443.833,"text":"幾處的構建那部長我想請問一下為什麼進度那麼慢呢然後還有你知道其實如果我們構置住外管社其實我們可以彰顯我們國家的形象又能增進與住在國的之間的關係所以還有就是如果住外管社的自由率一直沒有辦法提升的話那住外管社的租金的費用一定會持續的成長嘛是一定的嘛那這樣的話國庫負擔非常的沉重那請問外交部你要如何"},{"start":11468.166,"end":11494.659,"text":"取之中間的平衡呢?確實如委員講應該是以購置為原則特別是在像美國澳洲這些國家都是民主法治的社會那過去的經驗也顯示我們的購置就事後來講它的增值或是對我們來講就是包括有一些預算都是很正面的所以這個部分我也在加速推動"},{"start":11495.539,"end":11521.788,"text":"所以像今年就是我們也增列了預算就是雪梨的購置那我們舊金山跟洛杉磯也是已經購置完都已經要遷入辦公先前在紐約我想那個管社的購置是大家認為最成功因為在比較屬於經濟這個比較不景氣或者是有金融這些風暴的時候我們進場"},{"start":11523.528,"end":11552.205,"text":"大方向我們會朝這個來推動包括最近像貝里斯是一個我們很重要的邦交國我們離他們的那個就是類似說他們的政府中心就很遠又是租的又是一些好像有很多的歷史建築也沒有辦法好好的去把它做更新所以我也是支持應該要構置在以他們中央政府所在地他們也提供了一塊地是給我們"},{"start":11553.386,"end":11555.689,"text":"我看外交部統計其實113年9月中旬的時候與我國簽訂引渡條約的大概有五個國家"},{"start":11573.726,"end":11578.189,"text":"移交受刑人條約的大約是6個國家司法互助的話大約有13國那表示簽訂的情形其實這種是非常有限的然後針對其中與我國簽訂司法互助條約者其實有13國家但是已經簽訂14項的條約嘛生效的只有11項這樣就是像德國啦"},{"start":11595.942,"end":11600.686,"text":"土瓦魯國、聖路西亞簽訂的這些還沒有生效的所以我想請問一下就是說像我看到113年7月為止這三項都沒有生效那這樣可能會影響司法互助還有受刑人移交還有引渡等領域方向司法合作的關係那部長你是不是瞭解這是什麼問題呢還有外交部對這個計劃有什麼因應呢"},{"start":11622.503,"end":11642.499,"text":"當然簽訂司法互助或引渡條約或相關的這些協定也是彰顯國家的主權所以這個我們是對很重要的一個政策跟業務那至於有一些因為涉及到雙方的立法機構或者是行政程序當然我們會因為有相關的單位"},{"start":11644.62,"end":11644.64,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":11683.953,"end":11686.215,"text":"林佳龍部長林佳龍部長林佳龍部長"},{"start":11707.393,"end":11726.581,"text":"部長好先跟你說聲謝謝我生日你還送花來但我們今天呢要討論再次生日快樂謝謝謝謝但我們要討論今天的幾個事情那都是跟這個外交部內部相關的部長因為您前一陣子出訪嘛但我相信你還是很關心台灣的議題"},{"start":11727.501,"end":11746.63,"text":"就是有關於這個勞動部有公務員因為霸凌而遭到這個親身的事件那這也引起就是說各部門呢各部會其實都開始有非常多的這個霸凌的事件開始向我們來投訴所以呢因為部長你也當過立法委員"},{"start":11747.09,"end":11766.929,"text":"所以我相信你對這些事情會比較敏感那我也希望就是說我今天我會拿出三件目前投訴到我這邊來那經過檢視那可能真的是有霸凌的這個狀況的事件那來跟你澄清那希望這三個事件呢我們可以承諾說回去強加的調查部長可以嗎"},{"start":11769.211,"end":11781.167,"text":"首先第一個事件其實它是有被立案的在2022年的時候9月到2023年有一位外交替代役他有陳情到我們國和會的帛琉技術團"},{"start":11785.513,"end":11793.264,"text":"但是最後的調查結果卻說呢這個就是大事化小,小事化無可是我要告訴這個因為當時您還不是國和會的董事長但現在您是了那在這2022年的時候檢舉人就有說"},{"start":11801.415,"end":11824.495,"text":"這個帛琉技術團的技師讓義男去接觸有毒的臭肚魚那雖然當時國和會說哎呀這個是經過助團的技師同意讓他去體驗但我想問部長的是說我們的技術團安排義男去體驗觸摸有毒的魚這件事情是不是不太合理就簡單回復就好了"},{"start":11830.741,"end":11848.816,"text":"這個基於他業務上的需要還是說基於是什麼樣的考慮沒有業務需要啊他就是說讓他體驗一下那個技師說呢要我要他跟他朋友就兩個藝男嘛給我用臭度一次一下然後呢這個跟他的組織業務完全不相關啊那"},{"start":11850.297,"end":11869.167,"text":"福勤技術團的三位藝男裡面就有兩位在拜訪水產養殖的時候被刺傷那他們就很擔心說帛琉的醫療資源不比台灣在台灣可以治癒風險的這些東西啊可是在藝男這邊來說在帛琉可能就比較危險所以呢他的工作本來就沒有包含體驗臭度於這件事情啊"},{"start":11874.31,"end":11894.058,"text":"所以雖然這個我們外交部當時的回函給他說呢並不是蓄意刺傷的那為了要保護安全已經告訴這個國和會說請他們調整水產養殖中心的做法不要再安排體驗臭豆魚的特性這個是當時回復之後這給這個相關的回復那所以代表說他不是基於業務啊"},{"start":11901.581,"end":11905.283,"text":"他後面也講說他要調整不符合嘛對那可是112年12月29日這個國和會的回函他是避重就輕的他只說未來不再讓大家去體驗但他沒有認為說這樣子有霸凌的行為跟情況或許是那時候大家對霸凌的定義還沒有那麼清楚但是現在狀況不一樣了"},{"start":11926.932,"end":11943.141,"text":"檢舉人說在國和會技術團在沒有證據的情況之下指控義男在技術團裡面隨意變膩忽略農場上犬隻甚多卻惡意做出在社群媒體上集體霸凌公審的情形"},{"start":11944.101,"end":11961.847,"text":"當時外交部的國和司回復說經查國和會跟助博留技術團臉書過去一年的內容並沒有發現特定人員的負面批評或是貼文不是啊因為他是發在他個人的公開臉書上面嘛我這邊全部都有截圖喔"},{"start":11963.067,"end":11989.684,"text":"來大家可以看一下這個我因為涉及到個資我到時候會交一份給我們部長那但是呢比方說這裡他寫剛剛提水桶在沖洗宿舍門的牆壁因為尿騷味隨窗型冷氣抽進宿舍裡昨天某一男在被移送至市區前兩小時我看到他在宿舍附近鬼鬼祟祟而且這幾天都在下雨突然有尿味是誰去尿的也不用多說還有我很不道德"},{"start":11989.784,"end":12017.401,"text":"我叫了所有人一起去聞那尿味證明不是我鼻子壞掉還躲去農場找工人哭訴哭什麼哭是誰要自己幹這爛事你的心態跟行為有多惡劣大家都知道了這很明確的就是說我們的義男只是經過附近他並沒有實質的證據但是技術團的團長他就在網路上面直接的指稱是我們的替代義男做的事還邀請了他其他的這些同事一起去霸凌人家"},{"start":12018.241,"end":12039.014,"text":"這件事結果112年的回覆卻說這個沒有公開網路霸凌因為沒有查到你沒有查到但我有查到所以本來這件事情也就不了了之了但是當事人就看不下去的他們同梯那經過這個勞動部霸凌事件的時候希望本案能夠重啟調查那請問部長我們有沒有機會來做這件事情重啟調查"},{"start":12046.243,"end":12062.892,"text":"如果程序上可以的話但是因為有相當的時間現在人事相關的情況沒有啊你們當時是誰做這份報告的呀然後他當時怎麼處理的然後我現在手上具體的資料為什麼我有心事證我們當然應該可以再做檢討"},{"start":12064.693,"end":12065.953,"text":"現在大家都很重視職場霸凌事件的時候是一個能夠重啟調查為一個很重要的時機"},{"start":12089.979,"end":12114.27,"text":"二、本部也有霸凌的問題。（針對歐洲司某一個長官（我不具體提名稱（因為歐洲司的部門的員工都非常害怕（有非常多的投訴（我整理幾個問題（第一,在內部經常利益良善的大聲溝通（第二,送接機帶路稍有不順就會咆哮同仁（被譽為歐洲司的咆哮地"},{"start":12119.492,"end":12144.807,"text":"3、在晚間11、2點的時候還在傳訊息交辦任務4、瘋狂開會公文拖延批閱導致同仁全部都要加班等候在外管當外長的時候以咆哮同仁出名而且這件事情是有名到就是其他司的公務同仁都知道所以來向我們陳情的很多人"},{"start":12145.427,"end":12174.56,"text":"所以外交部是否能夠展開調查並於一週內提供報告我剛剛有問過同仁 這個有展開調查有展開調查 那難怪因為那部長這件事我要拜託你一下就是說你們開始展開調查之後可能會對於相關的公務人員造成更大壓力就像是那時候謝怡榮嘛他在被調查的時候他不就把同仁找過來然後說我不准許你們在對外面講什麼職場霸凌的事情我不允許你們做得到嗎"},{"start":12175.14,"end":12194.026,"text":"然後大家就很可憐的還說做得到那你們現在調查可能也碰到這樣的情況了具體如何我們私下談因為我不希望這些公務人員被暴露在外面但是呢你們現在既然已經在調查那我理解了為什麼會發生這樣子的情形就是呢突然之間本來想要為自己發聲的人全部都退縮了"},{"start":12195.186,"end":12216.315,"text":"所以為什麼我要顧忍其名的原因其實是這樣那既然你們知道我在說哪一個案子那希望你可以要求對方不要要求我們公務人員說好像他就不能再提這件事情不然他們擔心被報復被懲處最後那個主席再借我一點時間因為還有一個案子喔那這個是外交部洛杉磯外管組長對僱員性騷擾案件的後續"},{"start":12219.216,"end":12240.118,"text":"先前就有新聞叫做洛杉磯辦事處的林姓組長對僱員和女性的性騷案因為這個和女的中文並不好所以洛杉磯辦事處他們就說這是語言溝通的落差然後沒有惡意只是溝通的誤解就將性騷案去援過去讓當事人去主動撤告"},{"start":12240.618,"end":12253.633,"text":"因為如果不撤的話這個案件會一直存在所以在那當時米兔的風波戰平息之後呢這位林姓的組長調回台灣順利退休那外交部也沒有進一步的這個調查"},{"start":12255.455,"end":12261.437,"text":"最近也收到關於這個案件重啟調查的陳情指出當時的負責督導人事的林副處長在案發之後為了包庇加害人順利退休堅決不召開性評會並且引誘受害者天價賠償提告其他無辜的同事來塑造受害者有妄想症的假象"},{"start":12276.441,"end":12294.036,"text":"還多次迫害受害人撤回申訴否則要將受害者辭退命令全體職員不得為受害人作證而且要求大家要一起抹黑這個受害者讓家境清寒而且出生越南華裔的受害者是求助無門的"},{"start":12295.057,"end":12322.056,"text":"那這一位林副處長在2022年10月高升檀香山處長而加害人呢也在2022年7月成功退休部長我知道這件事情不是在您的任內但是今天既然因為這個霸凌事件勞動部的霸凌事件使得很多過去可能他們就想說算了那我就自己忍吧那他們現在不想忍了他們希望能夠重新找回他們的正義跟公道所以這個案子我也想要請問"},{"start":12322.816,"end":12333.224,"text":"既然這個被害者他們有進一步的來說出新的事證是否也能夠重啟調查因為卓榮翰院長上禮拜已經說過了要求各部會檢視要求各部會檢視是否有公務人員被霸凌的問題而且要在七天之內就要有調查報告像我上禮拜送的這個馬來西亞的這個駐台處辦事處的這個問題喔那你們給我回覆了"},{"start":12352.259,"end":12359.422,"text":"但是我自己覺得還是有點避重就輕我已很擔心又會發生謝宜蓉這樣子的事情為什麼因為你們調查報告裡面很清楚的寫到說那一名長官就是平常是你們寫的方式是說因為他的要求比較高所以呢講話會很容易大聲這一點會請他再多注意可是問題是我覺得大家在公事公辦的時候你用這種吼的"},{"start":12378.53,"end":12378.79,"text":"所以說﹖"},{"start":12407.649,"end":12425.182,"text":"這個部分我們也呼籲外交部的同仁要勇於發聲因為像教育部有海科館的霸凌事件他們已經研議修正教育部員工職場霸凌防治與處理要點那從本來兩個月的事需要延長兩次縮短為一個月"},{"start":12427.163,"end":12450.428,"text":"我剛去看我們外交部的性騷擾防治申訴調查要點目前規定是申訴事件自接或日期的兩個月結案必要時得延長一個月那但是對於性侵或職場霸凌的急迫性跟時效性其實在世界各地來說呢我們很難一直去關注這些案件是不是我們也可以比照這個教育部去把時限來延長"},{"start":12451.806,"end":12477.012,"text":"您懂我意思嗎就是我講比較快因為我時間不太夠但總之呢就是教育部他們已經延長了包含職場霸凌的這個作業要點那我們外交部我們是還沒有跟上的所以是不是能夠跟上教育部把這個時限延長讓比如說受到霸凌的人他有比較多的時間思考他能怎麼來處理這件事怎麼來申訴這件事以上兩個問題是不是可以請部長簡短回答因為我有時間的關係好"},{"start":12478.872,"end":12494.747,"text":"有關您提供那個案子因為我們這邊還沒有接到請提供資料我們會展開調查以上三案嘛對不對總共我剛剛提的第一案第二案我們有在處理中第二案在處理中"},{"start":12495.968,"end":12510.556,"text":"第3案是希望重啟調查的部分尤其他還有心事證就是說靈性的副處長現在接下來要去檀香山就任了那他是當時去包庇這個霸凌者的其中一人那這個部分是不是能夠重啟調查應該回來啦我們有調整人事最近檀香山的"},{"start":12517.944,"end":12518.464,"text":"請委員先把資料給我們沒有問題,我們會提供"},{"start":12538.9,"end":12565.526,"text":"最近的這些事情我想也更喚起大家對於不管是先前是有關於性騷擾或侵害的但是現在是霸凌的問題那事實上在今年7月我也有收到委員相關的反應那我們確實就是也有不斷的就是開會包括說暢通保密深處管道有效的苛責還有加強宣導那最近我們也針對這個部分我們也再次的發函尤其是外管這個部分的這些"},{"start":12569.668,"end":12592.145,"text":"最後就是這個,您要回答我一下,就是那個霸凌期限的延長,是不是能夠比照教育部?請同仁,你來瞭解看程序上。報告委員,現在行政院規定就是我們是一加一,就在一個月內就是調查完成,那有必要的時候再延長一個月,這是行政院最近的指示是這樣子做的。"},{"start":12593.325,"end":12602.753,"text":"但是呢他把那個調查期限你看教育部他的調查期限本來是兩個月然後可以延長兩次他現在縮短成一個月那我們現在還是兩個月嘛所以我們是不是可以結案日期縮短成一個月讓這個事情能夠比較快的出現這個結案跟委員報告我們就是一個月內完成"},{"start":12615.523,"end":12616.064,"text":"賴慈寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":12644.684,"end":12649.949,"text":"謝謝主席。謝謝主席。有請外交部林部長。請林佳榮部長。委員好。我請教部長。部長你好。委員好。我們跟日本關係怎麼樣?日本?理念相近而且很平凡的經貿文化交流。"},{"start":12669.741,"end":12676.103,"text":"關係很好啊我們哪一位長官啊過去的長官啊你的前任的外交部長還說這個他是我們的大哥哥啊關係這麼好啊結果他們的人啊把我們台灣人當大陸人啊有人跟我投訴啊"},{"start":12690.305,"end":12694.589,"text":"他在日本瑞穗銀行你知道吧日本很大的銀行啊他去存錢他就要告訴你你要寫ID號碼我們寫我們的身份證啊我們的或者是我們的護照啊寫他說不對啊你要寫12個digit你要寫12位數12位數什麼意思你知道什麼意思嗎"},{"start":12717.583,"end":12720.927,"text":"十二位數我沒有辦過欸十二位數是大陸的啦大陸的十二位數啦臺灣沒有十二位數啦那這個運動員他還是老客戶欸運動員就跟他講你要改改"},{"start":12734.653,"end":12736.434,"text":"你們是中國、中國、台灣的你講關係多好一個這麼樣子的一個大的日本的一個銀行結果居然強迫我們要寫10號個digit我們不寫不給他辦了這事情你知道嗎?"},{"start":12754.977,"end":12757.598,"text":"委員這個個案是不是是很普遍還是他很特別什麼叫很普遍很特別"},{"start":12780.407,"end":12800.081,"text":"他如果是比較特別的情形沒有什麼特別就普通的客戶啊一般的客戶啊而且是老客戶啊老客戶都弄錯可見得一直在錯啊人家可能有人就算了就這樣子問題他說我拿不出中國的護照啊我拿不出12個Digital啊這個你要不要幫忙去處理啊瑞穗銀行"},{"start":12808.901,"end":12810.222,"text":"你不是娶過聖溫森、聖塔魯西亞?你娶過嗎?對你搭什麼飛機?"},{"start":12837.648,"end":12843.41,"text":"來囉我已經給你啦給你看啦你用A320你有包機只有載19個人裡面有沙發有客廳有夠豪華的耶聽說可以有洗澡的地方喔比照一點鐘就還美金兩萬二了耶"},{"start":12865.181,"end":12867.862,"text":"馬英九用ATF70機載70個人一個小時15萬泰幣蔡英文是本巴底環球6000載14個人每一個小時50萬泰幣你每一個小時就差不多70萬阿"},{"start":12884.144,"end":12886.585,"text":"每個小時70萬啊哇 這個林佳龍林佳龍部長你的class你的class比馬英九還高比蔡英文還高高了這麼多你是做什麼偉大的事情啊我所知道你原來是去採點啊怎麼用這麼豪華奢侈的飛機這樣好不好花台灣人的錢這樣花好不好啊部長啊派頭這麼大哦"},{"start":12910.996,"end":12928.011,"text":"這個我來瞭解一下因為這涉及到委員比如說我們去南泰應該是不一樣的情形但是那個因為畸形的那個名稱我要再查一下"},{"start":12929.244,"end":12934.087,"text":"稍稍省一省,臺灣很有錢是有錢的,沒有那麼有錢,你以為我馬英九一個小時十五萬,蔡英文一個小時五十萬,林佳龍一個小時七十萬,你要做總統嗎?我不希望,不幸連中,你派頭太粗了,一個外交部長,而且我所知道你去那裡是裁點,是說我是看嘛,要跟總統來,"},{"start":12960.478,"end":12972.107,"text":"我去過很多地方包括南派包括加海包括中南美洲那這個涉及到航空公司到底用什麼機型"},{"start":12977.827,"end":12981.951,"text":"阿也涉及到人數跟他的航線你人數有阿19個人阿阿這個航線有有Diata美國Diata有包機美國的American Airline AA有包機你都可以Automotive可以挑AA可以挑Diata可以挑都有包機的服務阿你就不要你取一個最貴的隨隨跟你安排的"},{"start":13003.011,"end":13004.232,"text":"報告委員我們辦理包機我們都有請相關的管處去"},{"start":13024.892,"end":13033.635,"text":"我們負責我們在美國有幾個管處我已經幫你查了路線American Airlines有這個包機為什麼不用American Airlines為什麼不用Delta Airlines都有包機又省很多錢"},{"start":13041.477,"end":13044.141,"text":"報告委員這不是拍馬屁,我們經過住處回報的一些資訊,我們有比較,這個我們絕對...你們挑最貴的?他是一個基於安全因素安全?阿不然你跟那個包機沒有安全阿?"},{"start":13059.349,"end":13061.731,"text":"美國會揍你喔!美國人不安全!奇怪!等一下才不安全喔!只有你這個才安全!我們是基於處處回報一些資訊裡面去做選擇然後選擇比較安全部長啊!你要約束一下你的市長啊!這樣子限你於不義啊!說這個林佳龍企圖心啊!"},{"start":13080.767,"end":13081.088,"text":"我會來瞭解"},{"start":13102.125,"end":13121.395,"text":"你去了解來給我一個報告可以嗎?給我們國防委員一個報告可以嗎?我跟委員講齁其實這趟其實在南泰不是這個樣子那你說講的是拉美的話因為涉及到有一個行程是到這一個海地那當然這個涉及到安全的評估海地我有去過海地我跟馬英九有去過沒有你講那麼偉大啦你說到這樣"},{"start":13125.577,"end":13131.239,"text":"委員我在詳細了解我也同意委員你多久時候給我一個報告順便報告好不好多久兩個禮拜可以嗎可以可以喔兩個禮拜因為我這個在幫你我對你很好我讓你澄清一下不然的話你會說多金部長我知道你家很有錢啦多金部長要準備當總統的這樣今天感覺不好"},{"start":13152.176,"end":13155.858,"text":"我再給你強調你要去查為什麼不用American Airlines"},{"start":13183.084,"end":13198.532,"text":"為什麼不用Delta都有包機服務為什麼不用一樣可以啊如果有更好的選擇我想外管應該把他列入阿如果就現有的他們的選項那我想委員剛剛的關鍵好啦你等一下寫報告給我啦主要我就跟你講啦因為他們大概想說你浩大是說家裡又有錢不會啦我們是要做總統其實我去南海齁就這樣啦拍你馬屁啦就這樣啦"},{"start":13211.018,"end":13211.778,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":13242.26,"end":13269.325,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長請林佳龍部長部長好,延續上一次質詢的主題就是對外交部要推動價值外交而不是金錢外交這樣子一個基本的立場我是非常認同"},{"start":13270.509,"end":13291.516,"text":"只不過說所謂的價值外交而不是金錢外交有沒有落實在具體的實踐上,這個就是我們立法委員在監督的時候必須要進一步去深究的。我們在2022年的時候外交部補助了立陶宛,說要補助他們發展半導體,補助了1000萬歐元沒有錯吧?"},{"start":13295.374,"end":13323.875,"text":"這個不是補助這應該是共同來設立一個就是有關於4吋到8吋晶圓堂這是很前期的作業是那1000萬丟下去沒有有1000萬但是還在執行中那個錢交給誰公研院交給公研院對然後由公研院做什麼事情他的目標是什麼技術協助技術協助要做什麼"},{"start":13324.69,"end":13347.469,"text":"就是要發展八吋為主的晶圓廠那立陶宛現在還有要再做半導體產業嗎?有,他們現在因為那個一個園區取得因為他們自己內部一些問題嘛最近有引發媒體的報導那現在就是他們的時程會往後延或以2032作為這個發展這個八吋晶圓的廠的目標誰告訴你他們要繼續發展只是時程會往後延嗎?"},{"start":13354.794,"end":13372.268,"text":"因為這個跟我從立陶宛那邊所得到的訊息不太一致所以我一定要跟你求證一下因為現在剛剛你所講的這個事情不僅僅是高科技園區的開發宗旨還包括了"},{"start":13373.334,"end":13389.934,"text":"這一家在立陶宛非常重要的公司他們已經決定沒有要在立陶宛去發展半導體產業要移往其他國家了在這樣的情況之下我關心的事情是我們當初丟下去的1000萬歐元"},{"start":13391.596,"end":13407.208,"text":"那現在這個計畫在立陶宛狀況到底是怎麼樣勒?跟委員報告他是這樣子他現在因為在政府交接期間那Teltonika出來講之後因為是現在要卸任的政府當然也表達說他們"},{"start":13411.99,"end":13422.872,"text":"會針對關心的問題妥善的解決那對新政府要上任也會計劃繼續Teltonika這個計劃能夠發展所以在他們的創辦人對媒體講了這些對這個園區的開發他有意見之後他們前後任的政府也是很積極的來回應他所以現在的情況他又要來推這個案子了"},{"start":13438.533,"end":13467.31,"text":"所以確定立陶宛會繼續推半導體產業這個所謂的高科技的產業的園區那半導體產業他們還是希望作為一個目標那當然會務實的把時程做個調整到2032年能夠達到建廠的目標我善意的今天其實跟之前卡貝的質詢是一樣我是藉由質詢的機會善意的提醒我們的外交部目前"},{"start":13468.513,"end":13481.664,"text":"我們對立陶宛不管是用援助還是用投資還是用借貸的方式所投下去的金額包括外交部包括國發會通通都有在做"},{"start":13484.014,"end":13512.79,"text":"這些事情已經開始引起了立陶宛那邊不少跟國際組織有合作的調查記者在開始深入追問非常多的問題包括這一次這個半導體開發的援助跟這個科技園區的未來我善意的提醒外交部錢到什麼地方去花到什麼地方去最後"},{"start":13513.98,"end":13533.51,"text":"會不會無疾而終錢丟到水裡面像打水漂一樣甚至引發進一步的問題我可能要拜託部長要特別注意這件事情因為我不希望我們花納稅人的錢像當初在原住卡貝一樣原住卡貝了以後水引發的"},{"start":13534.815,"end":13554.834,"text":"是更嚴重的問題我們在跟立陶宛交朋友的時候我們要用民主要用自由要用法治要用價值去建立所謂民主同盟的關係這個我們大家都樂觀其成那但是當是拿我們納稅人的錢去援助的時候接下來所會發生的事情"},{"start":13555.935,"end":13576.143,"text":"錢要用在本來目的設定的用途上沒有辦法繼續下去的時候怎麼樣好好的做好監管的措施這件事情我希望外交部要特別注意因為整件事情目前是現在進行式還持續的在發展當中今天部長您在這邊所說的話接下來"},{"start":13579.244,"end":13598.331,"text":"我們日後具體檢驗的時候情況變成什麼樣我相信你應該心裡要有準備都會被翻出來這樣可以嗎可以可以嗎好我今天善意提醒到這裡下一個問題我之前在追卡貝的事情我上次請教了你一個問題"},{"start":13600.987,"end":13611.454,"text":"我說阿台灣會不會幫其他國家繳股款你說不會結果你們有個司長說確實在我們的考慮之列所以答案到底是會還是不會"},{"start":13613.491,"end":13640.461,"text":"我後續了解我們為了希望能夠增加對這一個卡貝我們這個能夠有影響力因為我們畢竟也有這個支持這個中美中我們是第一大股東嘛對那所以我後來透過委員的質詢我跟同仁了解的時候是有在考慮那也在事實上在進行中所謂有在考慮指的是說是明年嗎"},{"start":13641.732,"end":13642.853,"text":"我簡單講啦你把前面十大"},{"start":13671.024,"end":13690.84,"text":"前面所有持股的狀況在裡面所有的比例你全部拉出來看嘛你全部拉出來看我好奇的事情是我們到底是要幫誰繳股款他在中美洲銀行到底有什麼樣子的影響力我們已經是第一大第一大持股的國家囉"},{"start":13692.796,"end":13713.105,"text":"我們還要再丟多少錢下去過去已經丟了多少錢結果我們過去為了要維持邦交國砸了中美洲銀行非常多的錢我上次也秀給部長看了嘛在過去這幾年當中陸陸續續大概都斷交當然最可惡的是中國是北京嘛這沒有問題"},{"start":13714.656,"end":13741.021,"text":"我們對於中國北京打壓台灣的國際參與空間我們當然全體國人是同仇敵抗一起發聲嘛但我的問題是什麼我的問題是在國際政治的現實上面我們過去喔為了中美洲那一邊我們的邦交國的維持已經砸中美洲銀行砸了非常非常多錢錢一直砸但是邦交還是一直斷"},{"start":13742.438,"end":13763.605,"text":"走到今天為什麼我會關心我們還要不要繼續砸錢下去而且砸錢下去還不是我們自己的股份是幫其他國家繳股款所以我希望外交部在這件事情上面一定要非常慎重的考慮阿你們真的要做這件事嗎要花多少錢"},{"start":13765.48,"end":13788.645,"text":"對我跟委員報告齁因為我上任之後其實對於其實價值外交跟經濟外交是必須同步啦所以龍幫計畫所以我是有希望積極的去運用這些不管銀行或基金我先停一下啦你說經濟外交齁我這樣說你如果拿錢去幫助那些貧窮的小孩教育"},{"start":13789.745,"end":13800.798,"text":"那邊受虐的婦女所謂的婦女父權計畫你們中美洲那邊在做的一些計畫我過去這幾年我通通都有在看貧窮的小孩給他們教育"},{"start":13802.321,"end":13822.564,"text":"父女給他們付錢這些直接幫助人民的這個是增進人民跟人民之間的感情嘛這個我們大家其實雖然要花錢台灣的納稅人某個程度上都還能夠接受但我們現在在討論的是什麼事情我們現在在討論的事情是直接拿錢出去幫其他國家繳股款"},{"start":13824.178,"end":13844.023,"text":"我不好意思啦說這個叫金錢外交啦但我希望能夠知道的事情是你們如果真的在考慮這件事情拿台灣納稅的錢去幫其他國家繳中美中銀行的股款這個到底是一種什麼樣子型態的外交我可以確定啦這絕對不是價值外交啦"},{"start":13847.03,"end":13867.834,"text":"在這裡面我們兩個邦交國一個是瓜地馬拉一個是貝里斯所以是在兩個其中之一是不是?一定是要是這個樣子不然的話那就沒有保障我是覺得怎麼積極的去第一個我覺得委員提到的就是監督特別透明化避免他有弊端這個是我們應該來努力可是除了防弊之外心力怎麼去善用這個卡貝來對我們這個邦交國這個區域有影響力"},{"start":13873.215,"end":13898.608,"text":"這個是我們要去改進（不是啊,卡貝在我們邦交國的影響力這件事情已經實踐了十幾二十年啦實踐的結果到現在還看不出來嗎實踐的結果到今天還看不出來嗎你如果今天是一個新的國際組織我們不知道未來會怎麼樣嘛但是關於卡貝來講過去這十年看得還不夠清楚嗎錢不斷的丟邦交國不斷的斷"},{"start":13900.307,"end":13926.081,"text":"所以我才想要理解這到底是一個什麼樣的思維要去做這樣子的事情要投入多少錢部長跟委員說明齁如果中共透過這個進來齁對我們邦交國絕對有衝擊但我不是消極啊去顧邦我希望榮邦嘛所以我們現在在推的不管價值外交、資金外交我先停一下齁我們希望透過這一個沒有沒有沒有剛剛部長你講到一個很嚴重的事情這個就要討論清楚"},{"start":13927.683,"end":13928.704,"text":"現在在考慮的項目需要花多少錢?"},{"start":13946.513,"end":13961.878,"text":"我想這個都還在跟相關的國家在討論中還沒有到最後的階段上次委員問我的時候嘛因為我還沒有決定那我事後有回去跟同仁了解是有在進行中"},{"start":13962.83,"end":13982.529,"text":"所以是往要幫人家繳股款的方向前進就是什麼樣的安排可以去secure我們在這個組織裡面的影響力那同時是不是防弊我希望能夠新立我們在這個組織的影響力我已經一而再再而三跟部長報告啦裡面的你現在看得到了在那個區域的國家除了你剛提到那兩個現在都斷交斷完啦"},{"start":13985.865,"end":14003.898,"text":"我想要積極地去運用這個除了防弊也要心力啦所以我意思是說我面對這個問題委員關心的監督機制一定要強化透明化但是同樣另外一方面怎麼樣善用這個卡貝的機制我們也是要投入更多的心力啦"},{"start":14004.258,"end":14004.498,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員林部長請回"},{"start":14034.827,"end":14034.847,"text":"楊瓊玉議員"},{"start":14059.089,"end":14076.544,"text":"部長,首先我們來討論最近總統也下令各單位必須在一個禮拜內去清查各單位的霸凌事件是否有,那我們外交部目前清查的完整了嗎?"},{"start":14078.231,"end":14102.287,"text":"有清查而且我事實上在7月的時候我就有就是要求也請聞到外館針對有關職場霸凌我們除了保障同仁秘密檢取的這個陳情的這個信箱以外克責還有宣導同步在進行那對於如果有"},{"start":14103.168,"end":14131.308,"text":"好,那監察院在21號通過我駐聖保羅辦事處這個王組長的這個事情那也正式的糾正了外交部當然成立了霸凌的這個小組他認為是不成立在機關裡頭認為是不成立但是監察院裡頭綜合所有的事項他發覺這個代表出四個人鞭子一個人輕生兩個調回外交部"},{"start":14132.908,"end":14155.216,"text":"這個問題是的確有問題所以他認為這個監察院認為他的領導同意是有問題的所以在今年7月份通過了彈劾那在這樣的情況下本市要請教部長未來針對人事總署他所頒布的建議我們外交部是不是會如此也就是定定的整個"},{"start":14156.457,"end":14171.59,"text":"員工的職場霸凌防治與處理規範。那麼同時員工職場霸凌處理的標準作業流程也就是我們除了預防之外我們當然不希望發生但是發生之後他有申訴的"},{"start":14175.774,"end":14194.472,"text":"在整個的調查當中仍舊可以非常中立而且是不包庇的這樣子查出這個原因你是不是會依照人事總署所提的這個建議呢會好就是因為這個會呢我們也希望要如此的做因為我們不希望再有這些事件的發生"},{"start":14195.533,"end":14216.485,"text":"同時也查出了馮處長不管是職務或者是在辦公、採購方面都有一些糾局在這樣的情況之下目前請教你們到現在處置的情況究竟是如何來我們人事處長說明一下最新的處置"},{"start":14221.996,"end":14234.246,"text":"報告委員因為當初這個整個調查報告是聯通他的司法案件我們是全部都送到那個檢調單位去那對於監察院他所指的部分呢我們就會就虛心的檢討改進以上"},{"start":14237.713,"end":14254.102,"text":"需經檢討改進所以的確是有問題但是我們送的檢調這是依法去行政但是我還是建議部長我們內部的管控要怎麼樣機制去調整我覺得我不希望我們的外交部是漏氣的尤其在外管是很辛苦的"},{"start":14254.682,"end":14271.617,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣讓他有靠山好的人才讓他能夠盡情發揮有爭議的他也應該要得到一個監督跟一個處置是同不同意這樣對委員所言就是我們就是把外管這個彭處長調布"},{"start":14273.058,"end":14299.843,"text":"就先讓他離開那後續的相關的這個處置包括剪掉最後處置的方式你們自己外交部怎麼處置那也順便資料給本席接下來本席要跟你討論的出國訪問的費用那出國訪問的費用呢你增加了大概這個1.6億1.6億那超過了大概六成所以呢請教"},{"start":14300.763,"end":14313.392,"text":"除了我們全球的物價以及通膨的上漲匯率的變動匯差預算的增幅那麼本需要請教也就是說我們在這個總統預計在什麼時候要出訪"},{"start":14319.384,"end":14331.43,"text":"11月30號、12月6號這是你們所做的安排嗎?那當然我們非常希望太平洋的友邦我們也要謝謝總統辛苦的要如此做那會過境美國嗎?"},{"start":14333.919,"end":14354.821,"text":"出訪的事宜都已經初步宣布這是出訪的邦交國其他就是我們有總統府方面因為美國也說會全力的協助我們以往像蔡英文總統也都有過境韓英九總統也都有過境阿扁總統也都有過境那我們賴一清的總統會不會"},{"start":14356.631,"end":14381.306,"text":"在這一次的行程當中因為有關相關的訊息會在最快的時間再跟對外說明因為也涉及到一些跟相關的協商因為美國也表示他會全力的協助嘛AIT方面也曾經受訪他說如果有他們會願意來協助嘛對不對一向都如此所以要加油那麼請教因為以往總統上任520"},{"start":14382.762,"end":14405.697,"text":"以往總統上任委員比如蔡英文總統她委員上任之後6月她就出訪中南美那麼阿扁總統以及這個馬英九總統歷任的總統他們大概也就在3個月內左右就在8月份他們兩位都在8月份就首度就出訪那鞏固我們的邦交國也為我們台灣來宣傳那我們賴清德總統為什麼會"},{"start":14408.152,"end":14428.474,"text":"會這麼晚才出門有什麼障礙或者有什麼考量或者有什麼特殊的原因嗎沒有什麼障礙我覺得最主要是這一次邀請總統出訪的三個國家都是在南太平洋為主那他們安排這個期間是三個國家都可以接待"},{"start":14429.235,"end":14430.436,"text":"本席也告訴你以往的總統"},{"start":14446.147,"end":14446.527,"text":"對外之捐助"},{"start":14476.059,"end":14490.515,"text":"對特別南泰這三個國家都來參加我們總統的就職典禮那也就是今年的選舉啦年初到年尾包括一個國家是最近才選完所以我們就把他安排在這次最近全球都在選舉那所以我們繼續討論"},{"start":14493.558,"end":14495.659,"text":"國際會議以及交流協助各種的這個國際交流活動那這個當中呢你編列了11.8億左右特別有一項也就是推動以及"},{"start":14512.91,"end":14533.908,"text":"支助各項國際交流的這個活動當中這個項目是1億多那另外特別在國際會議以及交流訪兵接待訪兵接待的這個部分呢你是編列了5.4億左右5.4億當然就是要接待外賓那比這個110現在進行式的增加1億多"},{"start":14534.628,"end":14562.946,"text":"一億多那等於是增加兩成多的預算那當然全球現在進行全國性的選舉所以各個國家的一個政治動向對於我們外交來講我相信外交部同仁也都非常努力在跟這個全世界的脈動在聯繫也是掌控這個選後的政治的這個意向那所以本期要請教我們多了這個一億多"},{"start":14564.687,"end":14564.767,"text":"謝謝委員吼"},{"start":14583.123,"end":14598.353,"text":"因為我發現說其實邀訪是最好的KPI我們現在預算過去太少導致我們的一些外管比如說歐洲有30個管處他們有一些管處邀請不到對象那你就沒有辦法去了解這個管處到底有沒有好好的去經營"},{"start":14600.254,"end":14624.9,"text":"所以我就增加預算喔我是叫歐洲跟美國增加預算我告訴你了嘛增加1億多嘛對所以你這1億多就邀訪讓他增加對象哪一個系列哪一個比如說國會議員政府的部會首長當然這是目前你們在做的嘛但是也就是以往就是現在跟明年度你增加了1億多你一定有你的量能跟你的元素進來本校要請教你的元素跟量能到底是歐洲獅對卓"},{"start":14626.44,"end":14654.983,"text":"因為歐洲國家很多就分下去之後有些國家分不到一次那我就發現說如果你你這個管住沒有去經營國會議員或政府首長我們沒有編預算他兩手一攤說你有沒有讓我有預算去邀請我現在用這個做KPI那你看邀訪來的人效果都很好他來過台灣之後對台灣的支持因為他很認識台灣之後不管去參加科學、參觀科學園區或參加我們的這些文化的活動"},{"start":14655.643,"end":14679.733,"text":"所以我覺得就KPI來講邀訪是最直接然後最重要的一個效果那我們台中市你也擔任過市長你也了解到目前為止我們所有的各項都是第一在盧修燕市長領軍也是大家歷任的市長所打下的一個基礎那不斷的發揚光大尤其歐洲商會目前希望到我們台中來是會館的"},{"start":14680.993,"end":14682.674,"text":"這是我們外交部目前在增加1億多的預算裡頭我們所提出來的"},{"start":14710.405,"end":14739.622,"text":"需求跟量能跟元素所以我要給一個資料也就是請你因為已經設定了KPI把你預計要增加的量能項目那麼你希望能夠達到怎麼樣的成效請給一份書面資料給我們我們希望一起好好的讓台灣尤其是我們美麗的台中我們兩個自己美好的家能夠更加的跟國際來接軌那你書面資料多久可以給本席確實城市外交很重要書面資料多久可以給本席"},{"start":14740.373,"end":14742.081,"text":"多少?同仁就"},{"start":14745.031,"end":14747.433,"text":"請詳細一周內把順便資料給本席我們繼續加油看了我們的KPI向上發展"},{"start":14771.55,"end":14772.15,"text":"有請部長有請部長"},{"start":14803.069,"end":14814.219,"text":"部長好 剛才有提到賴總統即將要出訪我們太平洋的三個友邦請問部長您會去嗎 會 圓明會主委會去嗎 會"},{"start":14819.585,"end":14846.088,"text":"那這樣很好很符合我的期待因為我覺得我們的外交工作即便是這些南島語族國家我都希望我們的主體客體都是同等重要的一起來努力那我今天其實想要跟您提一下就是我上次有幾個訴求不過我還是說一下因為以這次我們要去的國家帛琉來講"},{"start":14847.509,"end":14870.248,"text":"他在202121年這個惠樹仁總統上任之後來到我們台灣他有講了一句話讓人非常的感動他直接說帛琉的根在台灣而且這個關係會一直延續下去非常令人感動那前幾個月呢因為有一個太平洋藝術節"},{"start":14871.909,"end":14879.842,"text":"其中在大會當中主持人說的那段話也被製作成影音到處去傳對他講得很感動他說台灣是我們的母親所以"},{"start":14887.293,"end":14907.209,"text":"其實不論是整個我們的南島語族分布的這些國家其實他們都有這樣的一個想法但是事實上這個主流學說它其實也是其來有自如果從物種像是構數幾乎所有的南島民族國家它都有構數"},{"start":14908.91,"end":14934.213,"text":"這個就是因為帶去的種子那因為構樹它是全利用可以把我們整個做衣服也好食物也好藥品也好它其實是一個全利用的那如果說從我們的語言那更是證據很多因為我們在五官數字或者是像船我們有很多的同源詞證明我們是同一家人"},{"start":14934.693,"end":14951.83,"text":"好那我們的人口4億人我現在就是想要請教一下因為這個禮拜在圓明會我們的預算審查我們有一項就是圓明會辦理南島相關的業務例如南島論壇"},{"start":14953.391,"end":14965.578,"text":"有些委員是很有意見的他們覺得這種外交事務呢應該要由外交部來做所以呢先把它做保留然後後續協商討論請教部長您的看法"},{"start":14971.82,"end":14999.339,"text":"臺灣是南島語系的發源地這個是很多學術研究包括現在在太平洋國家也都有這樣的一個認識我是覺得臺灣有這個原住民族是我們外交上最寶貴的資產所以在推總和外交我其中就有針對原住民外交希望能夠用一個任務編組來推動無論所大使也有兩位是原住民族的背景"},{"start":15000.38,"end":15015.82,"text":"這次到國流去擔任我們的總統的特使也是我特別推薦由原民會主委現在就是說原民會的業務很多可是他這個有個國際處 能量我們只要來加強"},{"start":15016.641,"end":15018.222,"text":"謝謝部長您的回答讓我們很感動但是我還是要提這是主體性的問題"},{"start":15035.214,"end":15061.107,"text":"我覺得在這個部分我們很清楚知道我們南島外交的推動我們應該還是要尊重原民會原住民的一個主體性這是很重要的那我覺得像當天像以陳寅委員來講他說他去了紐西蘭結果代表處想要邀毛利的國會議員怎麼約都約不到但是陳寅委員以原住民的身份一天就搞定"},{"start":15062.327,"end":15088.093,"text":"這樣的例子非常的多因為他們是真的把我們當成是一家人其實他們對華人還是有一些戒慎恐懼所以我覺得這個部分我希望說我們的外交體系大部分可能都是以西方文化來建構缺乏南島文化為主體的關係但是我想部長您在這個位置上我已經看到有很多的改變希望你繼續努力但是我要提醒"},{"start":15089.033,"end":15104.561,"text":"因為中國正在有意識的滲透要掠奪南島起源的權勢來弱化台灣的主體性我們看到很多的影音抖音被邀請這些年輕人他們已經不再是"},{"start":15105.061,"end":15121.491,"text":"天然綠喔自然獨喔他們很多的年輕人開始會去那個地方交流就說出這樣的話我們台灣少數民族也是有根的我們的根在福建是從福建東南沿海遷徙到台灣的這樣的言論在年輕人越來越多在這個世代我們也可以看到他們辦的海峽論壇他們有特別一個叫做南島語族文化學術論壇"},{"start":15133.118,"end":15159.467,"text":"所以這樣的一個意圖讓我們感到很憂心所以我之前我有特別提出我希望外交部要盤點原住民族的外交官也要去做人才的培育那未來這些重點的區域的派駐原住民外交人才的可行性我希望能夠開始去思考那另外剛才您有說邀訪是最好的"},{"start":15159.887,"end":15160.107,"text":"對同仁們講說要記得委員還會再問"},{"start":15188.463,"end":15210.641,"text":"要規劃喔不能就這樣子說了不了了之喔那我不曉得說規劃進度如何有,我們有跟原民會有討論就是他們也來提案那我們來一起就是推動我有請同仁針對總和外交裡面的原住民外交要步與步之間要有一個平台"},{"start":15211.461,"end":15235.511,"text":"就像我們最近跟環境部針對探權在國際合作同樣跟原住民外交我們的對口就是原民會兩個會一起來推原住民外交所以除了這個活動之外其實我覺得應該全面性的其實就是說其實原住民外交其實是可以作為談外交的主流化的一個主題也真的是不只是說太平洋地區你要像這一個加拿大紐澳"},{"start":15236.872,"end":15258.197,"text":"甚至歐洲的國家其實他們對原住民都當作一個主流一個主題在推動可是我們相對來講外交部這個業務是比較不是這麼主流那原民會呢他業務很多外交好像也不是他好像一個最主要的那我們兩部來合作會我想應該是可以把原住民外交推到一個新的層次"},{"start":15259.997,"end":15283.043,"text":"部長您剛剛既然有提到說有有有在規劃了齁那有沒有可能一個禮拜之內到辦公室我來瞭解一下進度因為馬上就要出訪齁這次也是我有推薦我特別有提到說原民會主委一定也是要參加那個就是府會包括總統府跟國安會都覺得這很好那就兩週後好不好或者同仁來啊"},{"start":15286.64,"end":15287.481,"text":"接下來我們請羅廷偉委員上台質詢"},{"start":15317.371,"end":15318.455,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長有請部長"},{"start":15328.988,"end":15353.885,"text":"部長好 喂 委員好部長 外交部明年度的預算基密預算18億近6年來新高我想各個媒體都在報導當然外交部有自己的說法但所有的委員都非常的關注有幾個問題想跟您來做一個探討我想台灣處在一個特殊的國際政治的環境裡在這一層環境裡面最大的因素我們看到台灣與世界其他國家所簽的經貿協議比較少加上全球這個經貿協議RCEP"},{"start":15355.546,"end":15383.571,"text":"台灣沒有加入因此更顯得CPTPP特別的重要部長台灣為了加入CPTPP已經準備了很久我們都覺得我們準備好了從TPP時候開始準備今天聯合報報導CPTPP大會擱置台灣入會的申請案尤其我們在這一次的是採集體公視局新加坡、越南、馬來西亞目前看起來並沒有支持台灣加入新南向政策的推動不敵政治現實請問部長怎麼看"},{"start":15385.423,"end":15385.523,"text":"主席"},{"start":15402.992,"end":15428.623,"text":"就是說現在的會員國11加1那個1就是英國那目前我們有協商就所謂的這個部分我們協商到的對象基本上都是樂觀啟程樂觀啟程所以我想問一下有沒有這個程序會有一些你也知道說因為國際政治經濟的因素對所以到底是怎麼樣推進那因為加拿大他有用了一個就是要成立工作小組才進入下一個階段實質協商可是他現在可以開放"},{"start":15430.184,"end":15451.594,"text":"工作小舉之前就可以雙邊協商那所以據報載我們還是要講一下CPTT執委裡面有一個另一個國家的高級官員表示台灣未獲得共識有一些成員國仍然需要努力的被說服請問部長我現在就想問你剛剛有說並沒有不被支持有人願意樂觀啟程有沒有可以舉例一下哪些支持哪些不支持的"},{"start":15451.834,"end":15477.702,"text":"因為這種pre-consultation就是說因為算是說CPTPP的輪值主席國在加拿大的主導之下有通過一個決定就是有關於成立工作會議之前也可以進行雙邊諮商所以我們從今年開始就展開跟一些國家雙邊的所謂的前期的諮商那目前的諮商有將近一半就11個國家裡面有一半那都是很正面那秘魯有嗎沒有在裡面"},{"start":15478.522,"end":15501.576,"text":"因為這個有一些他是可以不表反對那我跟委員說明就本來說好像共識決是要大家都vote YES不是現在是你不贊成的人你要去說理由為什麼不贊成那這個我覺得是開了一個一扇門啦算是一扇門給我們只要不反對就算是同意就對了啦因為台灣跟美國都簽訂21世紀貿易這個倡議其實我們是高標準那如果這一次我們沒辦法入會我們有沒有什麼備案"},{"start":15502.276,"end":15524.14,"text":"我們就繼續溝通努力因為他這個是有點是說我們去報名然後他在我們受見然後受見之後開始成立工作小組然後進行實質的審查你就要展開很多的諮商我想到我現在也實質可以諮商但是成立工作小組大家也了解因為中國也申請要加入可是這個都是屬於我要去掛號啦可是還沒有受理啦"},{"start":15525.681,"end":15550.495,"text":"我必須要表達國人的期待還有國民的期許我們希望這個部分一定要有這個機會能夠進入那也希望能夠加把勁另外我想請問一下你個人對於臺灣人對於這個國際觀的一個程度可不可以1到10分你給幾分國際觀喔臺灣人喔臺灣人是蠻有趣的一方面很國際化一方面呢好像我們的新聞又比較國內化"},{"start":15551.676,"end":15554.157,"text":"你有聽過一眼看天下中華民國外交部國際新聞毒爆戰嗎?你有看過這個嗎?"},{"start":15578.311,"end":15580.314,"text":"網站的前身他是一個網站帶到相關的一些媒體報導"},{"start":15597.114,"end":15625.322,"text":"臺灣Plus是公視現在我們在講的是這個網站所帶到的新聞媒體的報章雜誌這是由時任新聞局局長楊永明先生2012年所成立的當時網站是設立在新聞局新聞來源主要是利用當時54個駐外單位每天收報上百則的國際媒體有關臺灣及重要的國際議題報導、評論、資源而來後來新聞局裁撤以後改由外交部來做接手"},{"start":15626.122,"end":15654.875,"text":"到吳釗燮單人部外交部部長的時候最後幾年把他給裁撤掉因此我們認為國人好像忽略了這個區塊的一個資訊收集當然坊間他也會說坊間有很多的一些國際新聞的來源所以這個不一定需要可是我想跟部長探討的一個問題國際新聞的閱讀越來越受國人重視而且就像你說的我們注重在國內的新聞是不是國外的也需要再加強我想現在國內確實有文獻小妹大"},{"start":15655.875,"end":15670.736,"text":"明迪選獨轉角國際南洋志等東南亞的週報等等都有在做國際新聞但光這些真的不夠我想我們因此比較關注的其實國際最夯的時事新聞分析而已那其他如果想了解中南美洲呢"},{"start":15671.482,"end":15688.643,"text":"好這樣的新聞甚至是非洲呢要去哪裡看特別是中南美洲台灣邦交國最多的地方國人想要去了解自己邦交國的一個新聞來源其實並不多所以在過去外交部的國際新聞獨報站做得很好上面有分兩岸"},{"start":15689.364,"end":15708.605,"text":"有分亞洲、美加、中南美洲、歐洲新聞、非洲新聞每天每一個區塊都會最少更新大概三折左右的一個新聞我想為什麼要裁撤掉是不是有這個機會恢復甚至有這個機會有這個國際新聞的APP外交部長您有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":15710.083,"end":15737.031,"text":"我來了解一下因為委員的提醒那當時怎麼設立怎麼後來停掉那現在因為台灣Plus到底怎麼樣這之間的關係那我們有國際傳播師就從行政新聞局過來做非常多國際輿情的收集那這方面因為現在匯流了我想確實是影音圖文各種資料的呈現讓國人能夠更了解國際的資訊"},{"start":15738.431,"end":15752.193,"text":"但是是不是由我們外交部還是透過既有現在的平台或怎麼樣因為現在的科技尤其是數位科技的情況又跟以前我想不管是串流或者是台灣Plus台灣Plus現在在我們教文化委員會也是在討論當中"},{"start":15753.695,"end":15757.996,"text":"我們也想了解邦交國他們內部的政治因素有沒有什麼的變化有沒有邦交國砸了這麼多錢在他們那邊我們有沒有獲得那些他們的資訊了解一下我們跟邦交國到底處的朋友是什麼樣子"},{"start":15782.004,"end":15796.245,"text":"這個部分其實外交部是不是能夠給予更多一點的建議不管是在未來台灣Plus或者是你們有機會串流合作不一定要你們主政但是我要講的是中南美洲邦交國還有非洲這一類的新聞我覺得值得大家國際來做一個閱讀"},{"start":15797.106,"end":15816.431,"text":"我很同意委員的提醒,因為包括我們國和會做很多事情,跟我們的幫交國,可是國人也不太知道。其實像我們比如說貝里斯有貝洋計畫,義後的話對他們婦女賦權,這個效果就很好,然後對青年的創業還有非常多的這些技術團,"},{"start":15817.791,"end":15818.712,"text":"謝謝部長,很高興您看到問題,有點出問題。"},{"start":15842.624,"end":15865.382,"text":"國內的一個關注我們也希望能夠有機會讓大家國內的一些國人能夠更關注到國際新聞那另外我想跟你請問一下臺凡的外交是否會有一些生變我想大陸搶奪邦交國的一個企圖從未停歇那邦交國到底穩不穩定我們最知道我現在想請問一下梵蒂岡與大陸現在在主教任命的臨時協議第三度的一個續約對臺灣關係會不會有衝擊現階段不會"},{"start":15869.205,"end":15895.514,"text":"什麼時候有沒有掌握後續會不會外交部相關的情質掌握如何對這個臺凡關係我是很注意因為今年這個因為有關於凡中主教任命臨時性協議簽了而且是一次簽4年對那這一位我們目前的這個教宗他也是對發展跟北京的關係很重視很重視我們看到他很重視加中文所以我們很擔憂對但是呢"},{"start":15896.914,"end":15909.429,"text":"因為基本上我們對於宗教自由還有這些人權的保障我想因為還是他們之間還是有一些除了說地下教會跟愛國教會的問題之外還是有涉及到對宗教人權的問題那這個部分"},{"start":15911.952,"end":15926.016,"text":"包括中共也是無神論那它本身打壓像一些宗教所以這個還是有一個而且我們台灣的天主教徒也是相當多所以我應該說這樣跟委員講說我們這一年來是很密切關注因為我們很也很關心說在簽訂這個在簽這個協議的時候會不會"},{"start":15929.497,"end":15950.883,"text":"有這樣的一個外交上的變化那目前看起來就是不沒有就是外交上關係的變化不過對中凡關係的一個有點是進展當然會影響到台灣我們也密切注意跟因應中我想大家都知道沒有永遠的朋友沒有永遠的敵人只有永遠的利益這就是國際政治"},{"start":15951.483,"end":15979.939,"text":"所以在這個部分上我想教廷與大陸之間主要的歧義我就是剛剛你說的就是無神論也就是宗教的一個問題讓他們有一些歧見但是只要宗教問題解決了外交關係他們可能就會有一些進一步的談判所以我希望部長我們一起慎重的看待中凡三度的一個續簽主教任命的一個臨時簽譯他到底後續會帶來什麼樣的一個政治因素問題這個部分我必須本期在這邊提醒你我們一起來關注這個問題"},{"start":15980.819,"end":15991.227,"text":"好,我們會加強這方面的...謝謝羅廷維委員部長請回接下來我們請羅志強委員上台質詢有請部長請林佳龍部長"},{"start":16008.711,"end":16018.432,"text":"部長好,賴總統是後天30.9出訪南太平洋的友邦,對不對?是那請問部長他會不會過境夏威夷跟關島?"},{"start":16020.75,"end":16040.316,"text":"這個部分由總統府方面會進一步對外說明那我也很好奇因為我也在總統府工作過我也陪馬總統出訪過很多次過去馬總統任內歷次出訪如果有安排過境美國公佈出訪行程的同時也會同時公佈過境地點沒錯吧慣例是這樣嘛 對不對"},{"start":16043.755,"end":16071.425,"text":"至少馬總統的慣例是這樣啦您最了解對對啊對啊那我不太懂為什麼賴總統要這麼神秘啊是有什麼難言之隱呢還是有什麼不可告人呢我想就是出訪嘛很多配套那怎麼樣去做好公共訊息的一個發布今天就清楚了啦因為所有的相關的配套所以今天就會公佈了對不對"},{"start":16072.665,"end":16096.76,"text":"就是會有進一步的對外的說明不是我是建議這種東西不用掉到他胃口去哪就去哪說實在的也到底當然如果真的有特殊考量我就跟國人說清楚但顯然我看現在政府也沒交代為什麼為什麼別的總統會公佈那我們這一次賴總統要這麼神秘還是說神秘是賴總統的風格不知道但不管怎麼樣我們中視還是希望賴總統這個出訪順利成功"},{"start":16100.523,"end":16123.041,"text":"另外一個問題就是這一次再次請教部長我也不太懂為什麼陳總統、馬總統、蔡總統第一任當選不是八月出訪就是六月出訪大概都三個月內出訪了然後呢而且一定會去過境美國西岸也就是說僑胞最多的地方那這一次雖然你沒講到底是關島還是夏威夷但顯然因為"},{"start":16124.062,"end":16138.44,"text":"我對於出訪的路徑安排也有點概念啊你訪問南太平洋就不可能是到美國的本土去啦 對不對那一定要嘛就關島要嘛就夏威夷嘛 對不對那我就不懂為什麼這一次沒有相同的規劃為什麼這一次又不去美國的本土呢"},{"start":16140.204,"end":16155.072,"text":"最主要是太平洋這三個國家今年都在年底的時間是可以接待我們元首出訪他們也都在選舉從年初到年末包括帛琉也剛選完"},{"start":16156.152,"end":16158.294,"text":"每年選舉的安排是差不多時間的不管是美國也好友邦也好其實你講的選舉的考量在馬總統陳總統跟蔡總統也都是有阿"},{"start":16174.452,"end":16200.555,"text":"我們已經五年沒有去太平洋地區這些島國我跟部長如果是我在總統府當然除了你有特殊考量我跟你講我就去訪問巴拉圭然後就過境美國然後再馬上訪問南太平洋或是我訪問巴拉圭過境美國再轉到南太平洋都是可以的安排啊可是顯然你們今天南美跟南太是比較困難一點"},{"start":16202.036,"end":16224.623,"text":"我還是可以安排如果你有心安排飛過去你還是有辦法安排啦但是不管怎麼樣講就是說他不是互賜性的嘛你既可以訪問南美一樣可以訪問所謂南泰嘛他沒有互賜所以因此我不認為互賜是個理由但是我另外一件事情我要跟我要跟部長說齁其實坦白講為什麼大家會去在乎說今天總統當選之後"},{"start":16227.064,"end":16256.064,"text":"這在最快時間內能夠過境美國同時過境美國本土是跟一個東西有關就是跟台灣民眾的安全想像有關你認不認同我們跟美國現在關係真的是很有互信的基礎對對對對對那我跟你講我跟部長說因為這互信基礎其實存在於您的嘴巴的說明但是對台灣民眾來講美國是我們重要的那個所謂的非常重要的盟友嘛對不對"},{"start":16256.664,"end":16269.214,"text":"那這種情況之下台灣人民覺得看到總統今天一當選新榮一當選就能夠到美國本土去的時候他其實是會產生比較強的所謂安全想像這是為什麼歷來的總統都把當選之後"},{"start":16272.777,"end":16293.505,"text":"造訪美國本土作為第一要務就是因為台灣人民的民心的安定很重要那你今天過去總統都做得到到美國本土訪問那給予台灣人民足夠的安全想像而如果賴總統今天做不到這件事情的話那你也不能怪說今天房間有些人對這事產生擔憂啊這擔憂應該也很合理吧對不對"},{"start":16294.866,"end":16322.567,"text":"這擔憂不太需要但很快就會澄清你覺得不太需要但是我剛剛就說你因為我們大概從比如說不管是蔡總統或賴總統其實我們都跟美國都有很好的溝通協調有關出訪的事情那包括去年賴總統當副總統當總統特使到巴拉圭過去過去做得很好未來要做更好啦但是我要跟部長說反過來說就是說難道您覺得說其實總統當選在最短時間內過境美國本土其實是一點都不重要"},{"start":16323.797,"end":16341.871,"text":"過去總統這樣做其實也不重要就想太多也不用管台灣人民到底有沒有安全的想像因為這一定基於主客觀跟雙方面覺得最適當的時間跟地點因為最近因為太平洋三個國家他們就一直邀請我們要去而且他們都今年初這是馬薩爾群島跟獨瓦魯選出新的總統跟總理阿伯留又就是總統連任所以這個時間我們認為三個國家排在一起"},{"start":16352.339,"end":16373.701,"text":"我還是跟部長講因為真的不是護赤當然賴總統累一點點跑個兩趟maybe OK啦但是真的不是護赤如果你今天在八月你學馬總統陳總統或是蔡總統八月你就去訪問巴拉圭過境美國那你現在一樣可以訪問南泰啊所以我才講不是護赤嘛"},{"start":16374.601,"end":16403.442,"text":"有時候我們訪問也會考慮到他們的比如說就職啦或什麼樣特殊的慶典啦我知道啦當然會有但是說實在話真的有心要訪問齁你一定會找出一個方式安排啦這個就是這當然就是外交部要努力的地方嘛因為不要輕忽這個所謂的安全想因為說實在話我自己就會非常擔心啊因為我擔心的是什麼我擔心是說不要舉例子有人就說欸其實不要在乎這些東西這些東西也不重要"},{"start":16403.982,"end":16431.881,"text":"那我告訴你不重要就更重要為什麼?如果這麼不重要的事情也就能夠換得人民的安全想像就這一點外交部都做不到那我就對外交部的能力會打折扣啦或是還是說今天美國不讓你做得到那就抱歉那就不能怪人家覺得美國有依賴論所以這件事情不要以為它是表面上的象徵性它實際上攸關某些部分我們講安全想像拜託部長真的當然過去就過去啦後面趕快安排好不好"},{"start":16434.729,"end":16450.478,"text":"律法院也有編列預算我們今年也一定是說在出訪上雖然是年底壓軸雖然是先到南派有綜合的規劃後續的出訪依據委員提醒的重點部長再加油一下謝謝你一起努力謝謝謝謝盧羅志強委員部長請回"},{"start":16461.463,"end":16466.786,"text":"鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前委員不在接下來我們請邱志偉委員上台質詢其實我有做一個會議詢問今天練習是幾分鐘練習北北委員會"},{"start":16488.561,"end":16516.712,"text":"非本會的4分鐘啦但是我盡量齁都是因為大家都是有充足的準備的因為我這樣齁我高鐵票改了兩次因為你是不分區我是區域我在高雄齁都選區失誤啦所以我在今天委員當召委為第一個為了讓會議能夠順利進行第二個兼顧每一個執行委員的公平性第三個不要影響到下一個委員搭高鐵的權利"},{"start":16518.513,"end":16533.458,"text":"所以我當軍委會召委我跟您建議啊時間掌握都很精準就是以上三點理由所以謝謝謝謝主席謝謝建言謝謝建言我會充分把握這個四分鐘幾秒160秒時間請林部長請部長部長160秒三個問題"},{"start":16546.539,"end":16550.708,"text":"目前CPTPP執委會在加拿大,今天大概會有個結論嘛,奧克蘭原則很重要"},{"start":16553.791,"end":16579.622,"text":"這個經貿談判辦公室他是一個任務編組主要能力還是駐外或者外交部跟這個經濟部去協力對前線的資訊很重要曾厚倫大使他當過次長所以他應該全盤掌握這個啊自我會部長會這個最後的結論會不會按照這個奧克蘭的這個原則第三下一個最重要就是說共識"},{"start":16581.345,"end":16605.165,"text":"但是有些國家對中國是很友好台灣要入會的最主要的關鍵是中國中國他不是要真的加入CPTPP他要accept他為了要阻止台灣加入CPTPP這是他的戰略目的那跟中國友好的國家在東南亞國協比方說新加坡新加坡你們跟同大使有沒有聯絡過"},{"start":16606.462,"end":16634.093,"text":"好,在馬來西亞相對他們比較偏向中國有沒有跟葉大使理論過?前線的狀況要很清楚明明知道這兩個國家可能相對對台灣比較不友好對台灣陸會可能會持這個反對意見那就加強這兩位大使對住在國的相關的這個經貿官員的這個遊說也好或者互動也好這部分外交部有沒有做到?"},{"start":16634.918,"end":16662.443,"text":"其實奧克蘭三原則高標準沒有不良貿易記錄然後再共識決那個共識決過去被認為說只要一個國家反對成立工作小組就反對現在經過加拿大今年輪值主席國的解釋要基於效率就是說你不能為了反對結果CPTPP停擺那開啟了所謂的pre-consultation就在工作小組之前就可以雙邊諮商那我們就今年來在很積極去諮商那我跟委員報告"},{"start":16663.303,"end":16682.294,"text":"有11個國家基本上我們諮商的對象都是很正面可是政治的因素也不能不考慮可是並沒有向媒體報導的說去反對台灣因為台灣的條件是最符合的如果有什麼樣的干擾那是政治那是干擾者的問題高標準的條件完全符合對我們跟美國都簽21世紀貿易倡議每一個會員國都要同意對不對"},{"start":16690.879,"end":16692.56,"text":"我提這個問題是希望說外交部能夠跟經濟部跟台灣公司更加努力"},{"start":16720.922,"end":16748.839,"text":"目前遇到困難加強力道加強資源加強能力去處理第二個問題就是我是跟委員說明其實很多現在講的國家我們私底下都跟我們講他們不會反對但是如果我們能夠得到更多有力的支持那會更順利我們相信有信心但是要全力以赴因為外管領導同意比如經貿組文化組他相關人員如果受到這個相關他們掌管的霸凌他第一個生存管道是找館長嗎"},{"start":16750.592,"end":16759.315,"text":"找館長嗎?館長就是他整個就是要負責整個管務我覺得這個部會的本位主要把他這個放掉"},{"start":16760.12,"end":16781.404,"text":"在前線作戰的館長是前線指揮官阿不管是經貿組還是文化組還是這個科技組你當然要聽館長的嘛考記要聽館長的阿所以他前線如果他在前線不讓經貿組、文化組受到霸淫那第一個讓你找館長館長應該馬上處理阿而不是回過頭來找他的所屬的部會這個部分喔你在"},{"start":16785.526,"end":16800.757,"text":"我要示範一下什麼叫精準質詢喔時間到了齁你那個你再用順便給我齁好謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員部長請回接下來我們請葉元之委員上台質詢你要麻煩請外交部長"},{"start":16816.439,"end":16816.925,"text":"尼加隆部長"},{"start":16823.069,"end":16849.776,"text":"部長好,你那外交部有在推那個全民外交嗎?總和外交現在叫總和外交那要也是要公司協力嘛結合我們台灣最大的力量去推展外交特別是政府部門大家都要做外交的幫手不是當豬隊友但最近我們在別的地方就看到我們有一個公家機關相關的部門都一直在當豬隊友就是所謂的台灣Plus我不知道這個計畫你知道嗎?"},{"start":16853.558,"end":16867.244,"text":"幾年前當時蔡英文總統講說要打造像NHK跟BBC一樣的公共平台要讓全世界聽到台灣的故事聽到台灣的聲音花了58億4年的計畫結果最近"},{"start":16868.34,"end":16889.686,"text":"在川普總統當選的時候他們的記者講說看來美國人選擇了一個重刑犯那這個事情那時候引起軒然大波所以後來文化部長覺得不妥要求台灣Plus把這個新聞下架但是我在台灣Plus的很多新聞裡面我持續看到他們用"},{"start":16890.586,"end":16891.267,"text":"川普曾經是一個脫口秀的主持人"},{"start":16911.69,"end":16924.046,"text":"重返白宮的一個總統候選的成功的當選他這麼多的形容詞但是非要講他是一個重刑犯你認為湯恩普拉斯這樣不斷的強調川普是一個重刑犯這件事情你覺得妥當嗎"},{"start":16926.045,"end":16949.891,"text":"就從委員講的去報導的時候他在什麼脈絡下用什麼樣的一個形容方式本來就是有他的主觀心可是客觀上面當然因為他當選了就是民意的支持所以這個時候如果個人的立場跟這個機構他的角色這怎麼去一個能夠有一個權衡"},{"start":16952.639,"end":16957.06,"text":"我希望部長是以外交角度來談這個事情因為第一個台灣Plus它不是一般的民營媒體它是政府出資"},{"start":16980.686,"end":16998.324,"text":"做的媒體用意是要讓全世界聽到台灣的聲音結果他們現在聽到台灣的聲音是說台灣人就一直不斷地強調川普是重刑犯這個特質那你覺得適合嗎然後我舉個比較明確的例子在他們發生爭議之後我去他們的網站去看"},{"start":16999.065,"end":17028.505,"text":"他們是怎麼形容說川普的支持者在海湖山莊去慶祝川普的當選一樣喔描述川普的時候說川普就是一個被定罪的重刑犯人家已經當選了人家的支持者在慶祝結果你用一個這麼負面的標籤在形容川普那你現在是怎樣你在酸那些支持者喔好像意思是說你們這個支持者有問題啊人家是一個重刑犯的當選了你還在那邊慶祝你慶祝重刑犯嗎我個人站在外交的角度我覺得非常不妥當"},{"start":17029.265,"end":17051.645,"text":"我是覺得非常不妥當那文化部當然可以拗啊文化部他可以講說那個就客觀描述但我要強調客觀描述有非常多種部長您本人也做過很多職務嘛你做過外交部長你也做過交通部長你也選過新北市長你還做過總統府秘書長那我們特別去挑你失敗的經驗不斷的加注在你的身上你會舒服嗎你會不會覺得是偏見你會不會覺得很刻意"},{"start":17053.337,"end":17078.048,"text":"我還做過行政院新聞集對對嘛對嘛然後那我就一直負面標籤嘛比如說這個參選新北市長失利的林佳我沒必要這樣嘛因為你現在是外交部長我們希望你外交就好嘛就像川普當選了我們希望他領導美國然後對跟台灣關係好我們要正面那不斷的去描述他的負面標籤然後強調說這個是客觀的描述我希望你從外交的角度來評論這個事情你覺得適當嗎"},{"start":17080.849,"end":17105.242,"text":"個人跟機構跟國家是不一樣在你有那個角色就是說如果說今天台灣Plus要任何媒體也好那你這個新聞的報導個人的政治立場是一回事我覺得你這個角色大家都會有個期待另外就是其實比較根本的問題我跟委員說到底台灣Plus是不是媒體它是平台還是內容它是媒體"},{"start":17106.464,"end":17116.635,"text":"當時就說打造跟BBC跟NHK那BBC是不是媒體那個就是值得討論BBC是不是媒體那也是蔡英文總統宣誓要成立的因為其實文化部也不一定給公視以前也沒有"},{"start":17117.338,"end":17121.44,"text":"所以這個是制度面的問題我認為要去理解因為媒體你做平台的話讓各種內容匯流去促進那你可以專案的跟很多的媒體合作人家媒體合作有他的立場可是這個角色的問題因為你問我做過很多工作所以我也常常換工作他是媒體啦他是類似BGNHK的定義"},{"start":17139.466,"end":17148.009,"text":"有限、無限跟外星媒體匯流出外路新媒體社群媒體你是希望當文化部長是不是你是想當文化部長來跟我討論這個事情因為社會你是外交部長我雖然你可能很無法忘情過去的職務現在我跟你講因為我們是站在外交角度我們認為他做豬隊友"},{"start":17158.392,"end":17178.766,"text":"在外交角度個人的立場、機構的立場、國家的立場現在沒有個人立場現在你們有很多外交人員在做對美關係大家都希望台美關係更進一步特別是川普上任之後他很強勢我們當然可能需要花更多心力在對美關係上面那如果我們跟他保持好關係的同時台灣的公營媒體"},{"start":17180.027,"end":17207.327,"text":"臺灣人出的錢的媒體是這樣子不斷去描述川普的負面標籤我希望布朗你站在外交角度你去跟網絡部長講一下現在大家都講全民外交總和外交全民一樣的意思人人都是外交官人人都是外交官然後現在我們動不動假設國人去美國就一直講說川普就是一個被定刑的重刑犯"},{"start":17207.987,"end":17230.81,"text":"一講這種東西有辦法做到嗎?個人的言論是一個層次但是代表你的組織、機構尤其是媒體那是另外一回事對啦對但我們不希望大家這樣嘛你做總和外交你難道希望我們的國人出去都講川普壞話嗎你當然希望說大家維持好關係這是你一個期許他怎麼講你不要控制他因為他是個人可是你總不希望他這樣做吧還是你希望"},{"start":17231.687,"end":17237.75,"text":"你不會希望嘛所以是不是可以跟外交部講一下因為他們現在明完不靈他們不斷的強調自己是對的啦"},{"start":17241.627,"end":17263.341,"text":"我覺得這是最可怕的就是說你不小心失誤你改就好了嘛你一直強調你是對的開玩笑那以後你是要不斷的強調川普是重刑犯這件事情有必要嗎?有必要嗎?我來瞭解一下文化部長他的心聲我們是站在外交不是說完全沒有說你做不好的地方就是希望你跟他說一下因為這是統合外交的一環要配合外交部做一些良善正能量"},{"start":17269.525,"end":17271.447,"text":"三好運動說好話做好事存好心謝謝"},{"start":17303.2,"end":17306.623,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長,謝謝請您部長部長好我也好我還是要講一下,主席這個非本委有時候講話的時間好像比本委還要長所以我剛剛等得有點太久了我知道主席不好意思,但是他們有些人真的講太久了"},{"start":17327.981,"end":17346.472,"text":"我想問一下部長因為今天是預算所以我想還是針對預算的部分第一個就是我之前一直在講的就是說我們在外交的時候我們會去接觸國外的這些議員他們的官員包含他們的智庫但是有一部分其實還是跟他們的人民接觸真的很重要當然僑委會負責了一小部分"},{"start":17348.573,"end":17364.227,"text":"但外交部其實應該也是主責的單位啦那因為我們我最近在看這一個NPR的這一個出口民調那第一個他們說民主黨這一次年輕選票流失非常多因為其實這一次這個川普的票其實跟上一次差距不大"},{"start":17364.907,"end":17384.242,"text":"但是這一次這個賀錦麗的票顯然跟這個拜登的是有差距那很明顯他調的大部分都是年輕人然後裡面呢他在這個那個民調裡面我們可以看到他們有問說這個譬如說以哈的問題台海的問題跟烏克蘭的那個烏俄戰爭的問題那在這個裡面呢我們發現他們是18歲到29歲裡面是在所有的age group裡面對台海問題最無感"},{"start":17393.349,"end":17416.17,"text":"然後呢在往下這一個就是我上下兩個圖嘛下面那一個是認為就是說對他自己而言臺海的問題重不重要他們的18到29歲是所有的age group因為最低只有到四成而已也就是說呢他們對這件事情沒有什麼感覺啦那這不是他們的問題因為畢竟他們關心的是他們自己國家的事務那臺海畢竟對他們有點遠啦"},{"start":17417.891,"end":17435.528,"text":"我當然還擔心的事情就是跟之前一模一樣就是但是問題是他們會看比如說看TikTok看各式各樣的社群平台那現在中國在這間社群平台的聲音是特別大所以久而久之他們常常會接觸到一個訊息就是就我們自己的研究我們就發現中國很喜歡去講說台海的問題很複雜"},{"start":17437.129,"end":17453.985,"text":"就是那個跟那個中東問題一樣都很複雜你這個沒事不要隨便選邊站兩邊的人其實都很有問題大概這一類的話現在變得越來越多那年輕人因為常常看這樣的東西所以國外的年輕人會漸漸形成一個氛圍就是那邊的議題不要隨便碰觸"},{"start":17456.647,"end":17481.003,"text":"這個對我們來講就會有差別因為他不只會反映在他們對政治人物的態度上面也會反映在今天不管是誰在執政我說美國他去選舉所拋出來的政策他要去關心一般民意的想法所以我們現在就是說就是我最後這個問題就是尤其是在美國對他們的年輕族群這個有點像是公眾外交的部分我們現在有什麼比較好的措施"},{"start":17481.603,"end":17493.96,"text":"有否在這次的預算上面能夠被展現出來是跟委員報告確實民主國家對於民意在每一票都是一個聲音我覺得"},{"start":17496.569,"end":17518.466,"text":"對美來講我覺得州政府還有相關的這個更草根的層次我們是會做一個重點那當然除了州的意思對因為這次川普的支持有一些其實是非建制派的不是那種傳統這個保守主義的他來自於很基層的草根"},{"start":17518.906,"end":17541.118,"text":"所以我們在這個方面要跟他對接那另外當然臺美之間的合作計劃也有這些比較意見領袖的怎麼託他們再去影響不管是臺美教育倡議還有這個有關於這些像Fruity by Scholarship或者是美國青年意見領袖訪問團國際青年精英領袖研習辦這些意見領袖也是很重要因為"},{"start":17541.818,"end":17564.914,"text":"除了這次選舉比較是內政導向跟他們的一些經濟但是外交我想呈現在一些民調上是也很有意思就是說其實除了參眾院的投票其實單單的這個撥款法案其實台灣、以色列跟這個烏克蘭我們就是得到最多支持所以參眾議員的其實也反映他對於民意只是說很多人對台灣不認識但對中國是認為他是敵意國家"},{"start":17567.816,"end":17586.389,"text":"但如何增加對台灣的認識 這個就是我們的空間所以比如說我們現在美國在台灣有24個州都設有經貿辦事處那我就跟我們外交部同仁講我們活動要找他們因為他們反向會回去影響他們的州你們跟台灣的投資貿易的關係所以一定要到subnational"},{"start":17587.549,"end":17603.717,"text":"不能只是就是說nationalional或是international所以到subnational的層次的外交包括公眾外交那你看現在在美國的台商會過去是很多台橋、同鄉會現在其實他們社會影響力包括第二代都組織起來"},{"start":17604.537,"end":17626.215,"text":"所以我們現在的NGO也好我們公眾會還有相關的主持我都鼓勵要跟他們對接我很多行程都盡可能排因為你有去跟這些人互動的時候他會成為我們的分身回到美國美國當然包括加拿大而且他們對於現在所謂的認知作戰假訊息對於所謂華人社會透過TikTok的影響他們很有危機感"},{"start":17626.855,"end":17653.847,"text":"台灣他們又覺得我們可以經驗分享我想委員也常常幫我們扮演這個角色所以這個工作也是要進入總和外交去對接從中央到地方行政立法以及各個社會的這個可以說各個領域對我覺得剛剛部長提到很重要的就是subvention policy就是說我們現在對各種尤其是優勢對待他們的年輕人有些時候他們對於中國可能已經認識了但台灣是不夠了解"},{"start":17655.628,"end":17680.263,"text":"這個雖然是一體兩面但對我們來講很重要尤其是你要去破他們那個講法說這個情勢很複雜中國台灣都有各有各的問題所以請不要亂碰觸那他如果不夠了解台灣他就會誤中這個陷阱我們在多年以前我們跟日本的關係其實也是日本對中國相對來講有了解而且也認為中國是有一定的敵意但對台灣其實是在那一次大捐款之後越來越多是一般民眾對於台灣的了解"},{"start":17680.663,"end":17698.89,"text":"雖然我們不可能會有那麼多的事件可以去展現這些善意但畢竟透過一些比較剛剛提到的總和外交的方式應該可以讓更多的美國公眾尤其是年輕人瞭解我們那剛剛有提到我覺得很重要是NGO因為NGO畢竟是一個算是面對的這一個一般民眾的一個算是一個終結點"},{"start":17700.951,"end":17728.113,"text":"這個中介點的NGO我們除了國內外的這個整合之外我這一次看到就是我們有這一個這個我今天跳過就是我們的NGO領袖論壇那NGO領袖論壇這個目標受眾其實我覺得就很重要因為我們希望NGO能夠第一個當然是我們能夠協助什麼但再來就是NGO他們這邊目標受眾他能不能把我們想要傳達的意思又能夠再帶回去我覺得這個應該是特別重要的事情那因為我們現在也有民主基金會民主基金會跟國內的NGO"},{"start":17730.794,"end":17749.721,"text":"但我看這一個出席的啊什麼等等之類的有時候國內的好像也不夠多當然是有很多國外的啦那目前這一個目前這個國內外串聯的狀況是不是可以請部長稍微說明一下是除了民主基金會我們NGO其實預算有限但我發現我們有一個窗口跟就是作為資訊"},{"start":17751.201,"end":17771.435,"text":"因為很多的交流我們要找相關業務部會一起做比如說我們現在加入世界衛生組織那種的醫療公衛很多的這個相關的NGO那同樣的這個智庫外交也是或者是說我們在推動經貿外交等那這個部分其實大家對台灣現在是有好感"},{"start":17772.135,"end":17795.187,"text":"因為我們的不管民主或者我們的這個半導體的這些科技那怎麼去促進我們外交部做一個核心那比如說我們的外交學院以前可能就純粹我們外交官的學院可是我們現在怎麼樣去跟這些NGO或智庫或相關的比如在台灣的這個州政府的代表去對接所以我在一些活動我現在都邀請"},{"start":17802.31,"end":17816.256,"text":"他如果能夠也加入到外交學院我們在講的那些東西的話或許也會是一個很大的幫助因為他可以深入理解嘛不然有時候都是比如說見個面可能一個小時半個小時那大家講的話不夠多那就會變成說會比較像是形式上的交流"},{"start":17816.776,"end":17843.083,"text":"另外我跟委員也報告其實我在臺東市長我就想推INGO當時其實外交部也支持可是後來當然接我的市長他沒有要做不然其實INGO臺灣現在因為香港的問題越來越多成立了臺灣因為中共這個秘密這個境外資訊操弄還有非常多臺灣多元的文化也好各種的這個這個對接我們怎麼樣透過外交部做一個hub"},{"start":17844.704,"end":17862.876,"text":"這個我也是在希望說總和外交我下面我們在業務報告有大概10項NGO外交相關的這個比如說文化外交運動外交就是外交的內容不能只是雙邊的政務因為大家都想交流所以我們外交部可以做一個平台"},{"start":17863.837,"end":17865.358,"text":"以登記諮詢委員除不在場外已經發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有羅美玲委員"},{"start":17894.31,"end":17916.798,"text":"黃仁委員、王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆。委員口頭上面質詢未及答覆的部分要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供。委員另約定期限者從期所定。"},{"start":17918.752,"end":17918.992,"text":"同意同意"},{"start":17945.239,"end":17950.66,"text":"那在場的委員是同意 那我們就同意動之提報院會本日的會議到此結束 上會"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}