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謝謝委員在過去的經驗到現在的壓力我最近也看到很多考試院提供的資料我就深感現在的公務人員不管是大家關心的高補考、錄取、不足額尤其是這個工程技術類他其實就是在跟師部門競爭人才講得清楚就是我們的招募人才的條件不足"},{"start":442.059,"end":468.781,"text":"可是文官體系人事行政他受了很多法規的限制我們講得很好對公務人員他的權益有保障但是他就是限制他沒有辦法跟著時代演變今天我們要招募人才沒有辦法跟私部門來做競爭我過去有一份經驗也跟委員報告就是我們公務員都很滿足我們的薪水但是我曾經到銀行工作過"},{"start":469.662,"end":495.111,"text":"突然發現銀行的薪水是我們公務員一輩子的薪水他一年就是我們一輩子為什麼他的薪資跟風險是回報的是等值回報的公務員做的再多所以才會有人說多做多錯你這麼的說法就像郭部長說的他第一次領到經濟部部長的薪資他竟然很嘩然的說是不是少一顆零是謝謝"},{"start":497.904,"end":515.452,"text":"我還有一個感想就是說公務人員除了給他激勵之外在第一線最重要的就是在我們公務人員的相關的法規裡面對現在的首長除了給他權力應該克與他責任"},{"start":516.132,"end":545.221,"text":"也就是說這也是首長的成就感你怎麼把你的同仁跟部隊一樣帶著能夠對上陣殺敵能夠為國家社會來貢獻這個首長非常非常重要所以我覺得未來如果有機會我也希望能夠分享這樣的一個經驗就是說把首長他有的權力之外他應該賦予的帶動士氣給公務員的激勵他的獎勵要公平他的該有的責任"},{"start":545.681,"end":572,"text":"我覺得這個也是可能我們在過去比較消極的這樣的規範之外能夠採得更積極就是說讓主管讓首長能夠有他這方面的一個能力的展現但是我們社會也會給他一個要求這就是在消極目前你認為我們目前執行當中似乎士氣元氣是不足的情況之下希望由消極的層面來提升到積極換句話說必須要有權力但是也絕對要有責任"},{"start":575.222,"end":575.622,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":601.927,"end":623.722,"text":"所以在這種情況之下你認為在文官的培訓當中加入了環保保護因為這是全世界大家非常重視的一個議題加入環保保護讓可以永續持續的發展的這些課程你認為有沒有必要加入在整個文官的培訓中心裡頭的課程請做說明"},{"start":625.019,"end":651.044,"text":"公務員除了人才招募之外大家都認為說後續的在職的專業能力或者是說能夠與時俱進的一些觀念要能夠與時俱進來提供給他這些方面的培訓所以您剛才提到就是說如果有機會的話我會建議考試院相關的機關尤其是保訓單位把剛才的這樣的一個環保的概念"},{"start":651.685,"end":657.606,"text":"他是一個不管是城市也好國家也好他會是一個上位的指導的一個原則"},{"start":658.682,"end":681.302,"text":"各位指導的原則這個非常重要我們也希望能夠來加入那同時呢你剛才提出在智能AI智慧的這個部分要怎麼樣讓我們的公務體系它能夠提升這個效能以及達到它的公平性這兩點是非常的持平的一個方針你認為呢"},{"start":682.793,"end":705.359,"text":"就是說AI的應用在公務機關也不能夠自費武功就是能夠與時俱進但是現在的公務人員在傳統的培訓系統裡面他能不能夠及時的針對數位轉型或未來AI的應用來做熟悉我覺得這個對機關來講尤其是行政首長的重視是非常重要"},{"start":705.899,"end":725.785,"text":"所以在整體的政府團隊如果有組織的去推動的話那麼公務人員他不會被淘汰因為能力不足反而他會發現說你善用數位治理AI的這些程式的應用的時候可以提升自己在服務上的一個功能也減少人為可能發生的錯誤所以我曾經在這個"},{"start":727.666,"end":752.353,"text":"設想的過程裡面也想到如果有機會將來如果能夠參與考試院的業務對AI的應用也許將來我們國家的考選在AI的這樣的一個測試它也會是一種可以選擇的方式尤其針對未來年輕世代能夠投入公部門接受這一關的考驗的時候也許他接受AI的測驗的時候也不見得會比比試差"},{"start":753.646,"end":774.394,"text":"這一點是現在非常重要的關鍵時刻就是成都公共工程委員會現在零信用的這個制度一邊在走那麼同時傳統的也在走所以在這個時間是最佳的關鍵時刻所以這一點也務必要去加入而且去提升這是我們社會大眾所希望的"},{"start":774.394,"end":801.739,"text":"我希望的也就是提升整個公務人員的效能這個是非常重要我還是要請教因為這一次你是經過民眾黨的推薦那這個本席要請教因為考試委員他是一個中立的專業機構那面對因為在這一次提名也有國民黨籍也有民眾黨籍也有其他政黨都有所以在這樣的一個政黨背景"},{"start":802.379,"end":818.633,"text":"事務外界也仍舊有點質疑會不會有行政不中立的這個情況所以本席要請教你要怎麼樣維持在考試院的中立並且去建構超越政黨分歧的一個公信力"},{"start":819.799,"end":834.313,"text":"謝謝委員指教就是說我個人也很榮幸能夠獲得民眾黨柯主席的推薦當時我唯一的想法就是說怎麼樣把現在的因為年紀漸漸的增長"},{"start":836.415,"end":861.294,"text":"把自己過去的經驗能夠奉獻到國家社會如果有這個機會我個人一定會非常非常的認真努力那麼在這種狀況下面跟委員報告就是說奉獻國家社會也是我們唯一的一個想法那麼未來如果有機會的話絕對會遵照現在考試委員的這樣的一個超出黨派依據法律"},{"start":862.214,"end":879.769,"text":"獨立行使職權只要是為國家社會好為文官體系好都是我們該做的而不是為了政黨為了個人非常謝謝你誠懇的回答所以本席就繼續我們實時討論也就是你在地方的經驗對於中央的政策"},{"start":880.41,"end":900.956,"text":"我相信在整個建議跟實際行動的改革一定會有更加的貼切因為你來自地方所以你曾經擔任了臺北市的副市長跟新北市的環保局長這些的地方職務都能夠讓你有很多的地方治理的經驗那你要如何運用你這些經歷經驗"},{"start":902.436,"end":909.16,"text":"請做說明我跟委員報告就是說在基層公務人員的時候我曾經聽到一位我的長官也是在中央部會當首長後來到臺北市工作"},{"start":925.609,"end":933.657,"text":"他講中央跟地方最大的差別就是他在中央當部長的時候他老認為說這個地方怎麼都不配合"},{"start":934.557,"end":963.138,"text":"制定的政策可是今天他來到市政府的時候他就說這個中央制定的政策為什麼老是不時人間煙火我想這是一個非常好的一個警惕如果將來有機會我們在考試院從文官體制從考選人才方面我們都應該多聽地方政府的一個想法我們現在講說考用要合一最主要就是國家考試統一分發他就沒有辦法完全兼顧"},{"start":964.099,"end":992.476,"text":"用人機關的需求所以這學界講他是一個雙盲的選配就你發出去的人是沒有選擇所以我說像這些部分現在各界的建議就是說怎麼樣讓用人機關的意見能夠在整個考選程序到最後我們有很多機會都提到口試都是讓用人機關從制定考試規則應考科目等等一路參與我們有教考訓用的平台可以用"},{"start":993.897,"end":1010.984,"text":"前面幾位也有提到就是說未來如果有機會我們還可以去辦地方的基層座談把過去幾十年來他的這些舊法規舊制度怎麼樣因應未來新時代尤其現在大家談的Z世代的這個年輕人已經進到公務體系"},{"start":1011.764,"end":1029.296,"text":"我們怎麼樣能夠符合他們的這樣的一個取向的標準讓我們跨世代能夠融合我想這個東西都是未來如果有機會參與考試院的工作的話對過去的這些經驗怎麼分享大家能夠大家一起討論我都願意來奉獻"},{"start":1030.277,"end":1051.374,"text":"我很歡喜的聽到您說一個動作也就是未來的考試院你如果參與之後希望能夠到基層政府裡頭去聽聽基層的聲音這也是本席從政以來我一直說的不管你制定哪一種法就是人民需要用的如果你定的法人民是用不到的"},{"start":1052.014,"end":1072.513,"text":"那這個政府也是有歪路所以在這種情況之下不管是在制定法律都要多聽民意那同時我們也希望誠如你剛才所說的在整個地方基層裡頭在我們的地方政府他所需要的人才能夠是適材適用、適所適用這個才是最重要"},{"start":1072.893,"end":1097.356,"text":"當然要有這樣的條件必須要聽取大家寶貴的意見來做最後的一個整合所以本席歡喜聽到你這一點那麼同時你剛才也特別強調也就是文官體制不應該是選舉靠邊站那這一點本席非常讚許你的尬死這也是應當要如此因為所有的公務人員都是國家的"},{"start":1099.017,"end":1120.748,"text":"寶貝都是國家的財產它不分哪一個政黨它就是中華民國所以你能夠提出說文官體系它不應當是有這個選舉靠邊站是真正在為國家來做事情所以本席要請教你是不是支持公務人員的教育訓練呢那麼促進這個友善"},{"start":1121.668,"end":1122.268,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":1147.681,"end":1174.75,"text":"實績或者是資歷的差異而引發的公權力濫用的現象請做說明是公務員他進到職場給他一個公平的對待才是他發揮戰力最基本的一個要求以現在的文官體制我不認為說短期間之內不管是興奉、講仇都能夠做跟民間能夠來競爭"},{"start":1176.411,"end":1204.876,"text":"所以這個部分公平怎麼做我一直感受到就是說怎麼讓我們的基層公務人員能夠有發聲的管道不管是工作上的建議第一線他是最有經驗的你讓他能夠勇於表達包括現在大家關心的職場的公平安全霸凌那現在大家不但沒有這個發聲的管道那我們政府的體系可能也沒有在這些方面強烈的重視"},{"start":1205.616,"end":1222.017,"text":"換句話說您談到這裡也就是我們目前在整個職場方面即使行政院長已經提出在上個禮拜說一個禮拜內要去清查這個現象我們仍舊除了清查之外還是要有方法有制度我們一起加油謝謝"}]}},{"id":"157706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b706394df111dfc9df8624bb3245ee31dfdd0e867e6df39dfd90a1c8d1a4ee289610d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"16:01:45 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NawiIwan Nawi"},{"start":129.348,"end":151.558,"text":"人事行政總署、相關部會都有霸凌防治的建議作為、標準程序、處理要點、處置作業的辦法等等其實辦法是蠻多的只是感覺上可以做一個更好的統整"},{"start":152.378,"end":153.098,"text":"Iwan Nawi"},{"start":176.389,"end":198.269,"text":"讓職場的人員有所安全感尤其在公職方面所以你也誠懇地回答出是有改善跟討論的一個空間我們也希望也就是如果設置一個獨立的申訴機制你認為有沒有這個必要性"},{"start":200.033,"end":221.293,"text":"這個獨立的機制事實上依照我們現在的現行機制比如說我們這個保障法裡面我們可以透過一個程序比如說附診、申訴、代申訴但是在體制內或者體制外是不是還要一個考量我想今天應該是戴總統也有提到"},{"start":221.914,"end":250.177,"text":"就是將來是不是在院級有一個專責的通報系統類似這個當然這個部分還是一個初步的構想我想我們還是需要來討論一下看看用什麼樣的方式避免所謂的關關相護或者是他的下情不能上達的情況所以我想這個制度的建立需要更審慎一點但是就應了您剛剛所說的也就是避免關關相護"},{"start":251.578,"end":252.238,"text":"我希望能夠好好地去探討"},{"start":279.53,"end":305.904,"text":"這個制度怎麼樣讓它更完整那你應該認同這樣的一個方向吧認同因為國內其實各機關的這個機能能夠發揮充分發揮是非常重要全國有將近7000個行政機關有這麼多的機關這個部分其實是應該各自扮演好的角色但是那個總體的機制怎麼樣建立這是大家應該共同思考"},{"start":306.544,"end":334.2,"text":"7000多個機關的確必須要好好的去整治那尤其最近沸沸揚揚這些事件我想這不是一個有違的政府民主政治裡頭政府應該會有產生這樣的現象這是不應當的而且是全民撻伐的所以我們既然有這個共識我們繼續來討論也就是針對在基層的公務人員的特別保護在基層的這一環"},{"start":335.06,"end":351.36,"text":"因為基層人員他因為職位相對的一個弱勢那他很容易去成為職場的被霸凌的這個受害者在這樣的情況之下你認為在保護基層人員方面也是不是應該"},{"start":352.541,"end":373.719,"text":"要讓他有怎麼樣申訴的管道讓他有可以敢講出來而且沒有官官相護而且沒有七上滿下的這個情況是不是應該要設置特別的這個措施來針對於基層的公務人員這些比較相對弱勢者請做說明"},{"start":374.731,"end":397.111,"text":"是的,我想過去行政院這邊也有希望各個機關訂定員工協助方案包括他的心理諮商、意見抒發等等事實上我們辦法好像是蠻多的方案也有,所以這個到底績效如何我覺得這應該是要做這個機會要做一個重體的檢討"},{"start":400.254,"end":415.102,"text":"至於說過去考試院這邊訂定公務人員的安全保衛生防護辦法基本上它是比較因為過去訂定的時候考量的問題可能比較單純一點"},{"start":417.123,"end":417.683,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":445.717,"end":471.446,"text":"學生在學校有授課權那最重要的不只是自有知識而且要保護他們的身心健康這一點非常的重要那所以因此在我們整個公務人員的基層這個最基層的公教的這一塊本身也希望能夠好好的去琢磨讓他們不是成為是弱勢者不是成為最容易被霸凌者我們應該好好的保護他們讓他發揮所長對不對是的"},{"start":473.607,"end":476.249,"text":"超越黨派的具體實踐考試委員的職責應該要超越黨派"},{"start":486.594,"end":506.786,"text":"所以我本需要請教在你行使這個職權當中你要怎麼樣維持中立避免政黨的影響你是不是有什麼樣的具體思維跟做法我想任何一個公務員要維持這個中立"},{"start":508.006,"end":536.809,"text":"因為公務人員有行政中立法所以它裡面有相當多的規定跟政黨之間的互動關係應該保持上什麼樣的分際這裡面有相當的規範所以我想一般來談對於行政中立法的落實、遵守其實非常重要但另外一方面以個人來講我沒有什麼太明顯的政治色彩"},{"start":537.929,"end":565.015,"text":"因為我覺得我們學海洋的人你看到海洋有藍有綠其實是跟你的水的深度、地形、光線的擇色有關係但是你把海水撈起來是沒有顏色的所以我一向秉持的觀念就是國家的事務其實是大家的事務不應該有任何黨派的思維但是黨派的政黨的一個想法可能有它的理想我們應該要尊重"},{"start":567.477,"end":584.026,"text":"這個回答是平穩的回答但是我們的社會面向覺得歪樓的還是有所以本席會特別提出雖然我們有行政中立法但是重點是在能不能落實之"},{"start":585.286,"end":603.821,"text":"所以本席也希望就誠如你所說的這一個考試委員是要超越黨派為國家做事那所以本席要跟你討論一個實質上的問題您接受提名的理由是什麼呢因為也有人質疑你在黨內你現在還是國民黨的身份吧"},{"start":604.662,"end":628.735,"text":"在黨內並沒有依照黨章事先來報備但是你的提名似乎是跟你自己的學術專業背景或者是你的個人價值觀是不是有更深超越黨派的一個契合所以本席願意讓你說明你接受提名的關鍵考量是什麼呢"},{"start":630.511,"end":648.784,"text":"關鍵考量就是希望因為我曾經在政府機關服務過也在立法機關服務過我認為我們從事公職應該就是要朝頭黨派為全國民眾服務但是這個事情的申請或者是辦理其實我是依照"},{"start":650.766,"end":671.32,"text":"總統府秘書長在3月5日他行文給全國150所的大學院校他提出來希望是廣徵各方的人才所以我非常單純的就是從這個管道當時我並不清楚說有什麼政黨推薦的要經過黨章的規定我完全不知道"},{"start":672.481,"end":697.997,"text":"我的理想非常的簡單就是依照憲法88條的規定操脫黨派之外獨立行使職權所以這個部分完全沒有想過怎麼樣去要通過黨的規定或者是說他的推薦但是在我離開因為記者會一結束我立刻聯絡了黃建廷秘書長"},{"start":699.704,"end":714.373,"text":"然後因為我知道我作為一個黨員我當然碰到這事情一定要向黨中央報告所以我在第一時間1點鐘的時候我就跟他聯繫3點鐘的時候獲得他的回答那要我在"},{"start":714.813,"end":721.115,"text":"Iwan Nawi為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．邱文彥、Iwan NawiIwan Nawi"},{"start":740.524,"end":759.023,"text":"我從小年輕作為一個公務人員﹐我也知道有一些經驗﹐我能不能把這個經驗傳承﹐甚至能夠協助政府的建立﹐讓我們的文官制度能夠獲得更好的鞏固﹐甚至保障我們的公務人員的權益﹐基本上是想得非常單純﹐"},{"start":760.846,"end":784.001,"text":"這麼多時間願意讓你說明也就是外面的質疑當然你現在的回答是說因為你不知道有這些黨章的規定所以你也不是不禮貌本席可以如此解讀嗎是那所以呢本席還是要再請教您接受提名的關鍵考量除了你剛剛說的從3月份開始這個徵詢"},{"start":789.605,"end":794.961,"text":"一直到最後你決定接受最重要的關鍵考量到底是什麼"},{"start":796.411,"end":819.917,"text":"事實上這個整個審見的作業是到最後的時候我們才知道因為我們都不清楚這個過程當中到底你有沒有被提名所以直到他真正公佈的時候我才知道還有其他人哪些人所以這些的委員我還是提名因為公佈之後你就知道你有沒有被提名所以本席要請教當你"},{"start":820.697,"end":841.876,"text":"公布要被提名了那你同意或者不同意的時候你的關鍵選擇了同意那你的最關鍵的考量到底是什麼最關鍵的考量還是希望說我們在海洋跟環境方面的領域能夠繼續進行下去來做進一步的人才的培育比如說海洋跟什麼呢海洋跟環境"},{"start":842.523,"end":862.111,"text":"海洋跟環境就你的本專專業的部分因為我發現在這個部分比如說委員非常關心像永續發展的部分像國土計畫那比如說未來的這個都市計畫基石估價石還有這個地震室是不是在這個部分他在國土計畫上面這個"},{"start":863.231,"end":866.113,"text":"Iwan NawiIwan NawiIwan Nawi"},{"start":892.348,"end":919.466,"text":"因為現在的考試委員只有7個人所以其實是領域就缺了我們這個部分我們一直聲稱我們是一個海洋的國家是一個環保立國或是立憲的這個理念就像委員對這個中火的這個關心等等都是環境問題非常的重要但是要有人幫他去思考讓到我們的人才的培育選拔的時候能夠真正適合台灣"},{"start":920.046,"end":920.226,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":936.107,"end":936.227,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":955.417,"end":982.888,"text":"他公告的時間是到明年的4月份要執行本席也提案希望能夠延後兩年就是在整個相關的配套必須要完整才上路讓我們所有的基層大家都能夠安心這是目前的氛圍我相信你剛才提到這個也看到目前社會的面向的一個需求所以本席也希望能夠提供真正有所改革"},{"start":983.448,"end":1004.313,"text":"有所需求去結合社會的需要以及達到國家最高的利益這是非常重要的一環所以接下來本期要請教在我們考試院在政府的體系當中我們這些的職長跟功能那對於考試院在政府體系的功能"},{"start":1005.353,"end":1023.116,"text":"大家似乎現在覺得說這考試院到底是在幹什麼甚至還有說考試院到底要廢不廢還有這個聲音出來當一個機關如果被討論到存廢的問題那這個政府是真的要大大的改革"},{"start":1023.777,"end":1040.157,"text":"大大的檢討所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教我們考試院的功能建議因為現在已經有提到存廢問題考試院的功能建議就你的看法你有什麼樣的建議"},{"start":1042.851,"end":1066.596,"text":"考試院是最重要的一個憲政機關也就是當時是依照我們孫中山先生的一個理想提出來所以當時會把考試院單獨拉出來是希望不要私自用人變成濫用人才濫用自己的人才是希望達到公平正義的一個角度才會有五院的這個想法特別是考試院獨立出來"},{"start":1067.436,"end":1090.092,"text":"當然現在有些的業務比如說人事行政總署等等它也有負擔一部分的訓練在職訓練的部分但是我們還是認為說在現在的體制之下現在的憲政體制之下除非是修憲修憲當然我們就到最後看社會的共識跟國會的一個決定對你本身的看法呢"},{"start":1090.759,"end":1106.282,"text":"我本身的看法我是認為說不管將來的這個考試院他是併不併或者是廢不廢其實非常重要的我們看國外的一個例子就是人事人才的這個選拔必須具有獨立性"},{"start":1107.523,"end":1136.258,"text":"要不要獨立選否則的話就是濫用私人那我覺得這個部分還是要當然另外一方面我們人才的選拔必須要有品質所以這個合格的一個人員到底怎麼領選考試的辦法是怎麼樣也有跟用人機關之間的關係又是怎麼樣這些都是要通盤的考慮所以我對廢不廢的考試院我其實我完全尊重國會的這個決定假設最後是完全尊重什麼"},{"start":1137.499,"end":1152.93,"text":"國會最後的這個決定因為這涉及到修憲但是我基本上我還是認為說考試院還是要盡可能維持他的人事權的獨立還好你最後補上這一句話不然真的會讓我嚇一跳"},{"start":1154.229,"end":1177.575,"text":"因為你今天是被提名的考試委員那麼對於我們整個人才的一個培訓全世界最重要的也就是人才的培訓這是無上的一個職產所以我們仍舊希望讓我們我們台灣人每一位都是非常的有能力而且以往考上了公家可以說是整天在籌碼做"},{"start":1178.355,"end":1198.932,"text":"是整個家族之光啊但是我真就非常的希望一個有為的政府如果人民是信賴公務人員這個國家才能夠成長但是現在的氛圍不盡然所以我非常的希望讓我們的公務人員恢復我們的榮耀恢復我們友善的職場讓他們能夠盡情的揮灑盡情的去發揮這個國家才能夠成長"},{"start":1206.378,"end":1206.738,"text":"謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"157710","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157710","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70638e425364b633189d4bb3245ee31dfdd073576e907e000b614081f7d117a098d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"17:45:13 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謝謝"},{"start":190.01,"end":210.024,"text":"但是我想要請教您一件事您知不知道原民會有一個職務大家稱作為族群委員那他是以聘用的方式聘任任期跟原民會主委是同進退的那人選是由原民會主委提請行政院院長聘任"},{"start":211.405,"end":237.359,"text":"他的任務是協助原民會推動業務這一屆的族群委員當中大家都是從事原住民族事務工作相當多年的非常優秀的人選其中有一位他不只擔任過去地方民代、中央民代的助理很多年過去在原民會也待過三年在地方縣府待過九年"},{"start":238.479,"end":266.375,"text":"加起來他從事原住民整個的工作全部加起來是超過30年的所以我想比照您這樣子的經歷去比較的話您覺得這樣子的人才他適不適合來擔任協助原民會主委去處理這個族群的事務謝謝委員就是說在整個公務系統它包含了"},{"start":267.714,"end":289.901,"text":"政務人員跟公務人員文官系統我個人還是一直強調也認為有能力有經驗他願意為國家社會人民服務都應該值得鼓勵也都應該來絕對的尊重這樣的話對整個政府的效能運作提升才會有幫助"},{"start":290.601,"end":317.742,"text":"我想剛剛我前面敘述的也具備這樣的特質所以也謝謝您的肯定但是因為民眾黨推薦您不能算是酬庸但是我們推薦了對於30年原住民失誤工作經歷的原住民擔任原民會族群委員就叫做酬庸我想這個是相當不公平我相信您也會認為這是不合理的結論"},{"start":320.004,"end":345.597,"text":"那希望有機會可以跟這個推薦您的民眾黨好好說一說不要繼續用這個非我族類的心態讓人家只會覺得說所有的事情這個政黨好像都是為反對而反對那我再繼續請教就是因為這個聘任的這個族群委員呢他的任期是與這個圓明會主委同進退的"},{"start":346.437,"end":364.574,"text":"那麼他們有簽約我剛剛上台之前我又再跟園民會確認過有簽約有聘書而且這個合約是很明確的訂定就是與主委同進退但是很不幸的在立法院突然修法那也表決"},{"start":366.716,"end":379.195,"text":"就是提出這個修法就是要把它改成無極值那這些人大概上任不到兩個月的時間我想要請教一下您對這樣子修法的看法"},{"start":382.367,"end":397.837,"text":"報告委員就是說有機會的話我一定更深入來了解那麼如果說有考試院的相關業務可以來協助我們一定全力來做如果未來能夠到考試院的話這點我們絕對的尊重是"},{"start":398.567,"end":415.987,"text":"我想我要請教的是說在我想他們是進來為政府做事情那也是做族群事務的事情那麼在突然遇到立法院這樣的修法他們又有簽約那麼這個在這樣子的一個情況下"},{"start":417.488,"end":433.967,"text":"大家把工作辭了然後來接受這樣子的一個任命但是卻又突然的修法修掉了那您覺得這樣子的這樣子的比較粗暴的這樣子的修法然後造成這樣子的結果是樂見的嗎"},{"start":436.322,"end":454.3,"text":"個人同意的嗎就是說如果有機會的話我一定深入的來了解再聽聽看大家綜合討論的一個狀況最關鍵的就是說未來如果有機會跟考試院業務有關的部分我想我們一定全力以赴"},{"start":455.299,"end":475.47,"text":"好 謝謝你那另外是這樣在臺灣新故鄉這個智庫協會臺灣新故鄉智庫協會依照媒體的報導它就像是民眾黨的智庫在柯文哲主席涉貪案件當中這個協會的秘書長蘇敬強被約談那這個協會的監事葛樹仁也被媒體報導那他其實"},{"start":480.633,"end":499.421,"text":"是威京集團旗下中華工程的獨立董事這個協會的顧問孫鳳群也有在這個案件當中被列為貪污的被告依照您提供的個人簡歷當中您也是臺灣新故鄉智庫協會的常務監事而且是從112年擔任到現在您還覺得還適合繼續再擔任這個協會的常務監事嗎"},{"start":510.672,"end":532.964,"text":"總委員報告就是說未來如果有機會的話按照這個相關的規則考試委員應該超出黨派依據法律獨立行使職權是所以您現在目前還是這個協會的成員是好那所以如果順利當選通過我們審核通過之後呢那這個您就會請辭是嗎會獨立行使職權是"},{"start":535.558,"end":553.549,"text":"好 謝謝那我希望就是說這個我想我問這樣的問題也沒有有沒有不好的這個特別的惡意那您按照這個藉著這個機會來說明表態我想也給予您肯定"},{"start":554.289,"end":567.543,"text":"那另外我們再回到原住民的問題因為我謝謝您回答前面兩個問題那比較尖銳的一些意識形態問題我就拿掉了那我們就針對原住民的問題我們來好好討論"},{"start":569.627,"end":585.394,"text":"原住民特考因為原住民家庭的經濟狀況如果與全體國人比較原住民家庭經濟狀況相對弱勢所以報考公職常常會是原住民比較希望改善家庭經濟狀況的優先選擇"},{"start":589.916,"end":607.904,"text":"剛剛前面也有委員垂詢到高普考錄取不足額的情況越來越嚴重我相信您也有注意到這個問題但是我們也看一下特別整理的這個表我們的這個錄取不足額的情況"},{"start":609.605,"end":622.953,"text":"現在是更嚴重了藍色的部分是高普考黃色的部分是原住民特考那以去年來說高普考錄取不足額的比例大概5%那原住民特考錄取不足額的比例卻高達46.3%"},{"start":626.014,"end":641.822,"text":"所以原住民特考錄取不足額的比例是高普考的九倍相當高或許有人講說因為原住民特考人數比較少但錄取不足額的這個趨勢它的確是存在的"},{"start":642.762,"end":667.682,"text":"那以這個去年為例：各用人機關在原住民特考：提出的這個緣額需求是175人：最後順利分發的只有94人：而且每年報考人數都有上千人：但最後分發卻不到一半那剛剛前面有委員問說您覺得問題出在哪裡我很仔細的聆聽您說這個問題是出在您認為是出在這個足語的認證的考試是嗎"},{"start":672.677,"end":688.842,"text":"足以認證以後人數有減少是吧那您有參考過實際竊竊竊竊這個通過的人數嗎比例上有就是您剛剛提的就是說像去年這個整個三等四等大概錄取到100名是吧"},{"start":690.043,"end":715.511,"text":"我想是這樣建議這個人數上我們可以因為畢竟我剛剛也跟原民會確認過足以通過率這個足以認證的通過率其實是還蠻高的那其實實際的問題可能也不是您的問題也不是其他考試委員問題因為我們原住民確實沒有在原鄉沒有特殊的補習的管道這個落差是很大的我在這邊"},{"start":716.351,"end":733.645,"text":"也特別跟您分享這樣的問題那我想特別在這裡提出來就是說未來當您順利擔任這個考試委員之後呢能否協助原住民這個在特考考試類科是否能夠把它擴大"},{"start":735.567,"end":757.206,"text":"畢竟我們現在看到的就是大部分大概都是一般行政一般基層的公務人員但是我們對於外交、體育外交當然很多的南島語系國家我們的外交官到外面去約他們國會議員都約不到我去一天都約到了"},{"start":758.087,"end":775.812,"text":"所以還有這個體育現在這一次的這個棒球裡面超過一半每一場下場的超過一半都是原住民還有我們的民族藝術、音樂、文化等等我想這一類的這個科別是不是可以再擴大是"},{"start":777.812,"end":806.511,"text":"我看您有記筆記這個應該是重要的事項吧未來如果有機會的話委員的意見我們一定會來跟這個相關的單位來做參考您剛才提到的就是類科以現在來講40多項類科如果還有新增的話還是一樣就是說用人機關如果說有特殊的需求按照我們現在的考試規則他都可以按照這個新增類科的這個相關的辦法來做這樣的一個研究"},{"start":808.553,"end":827.708,"text":"無謂的拒絕這第一個第二個就是說您提到像相關的這些外交、體育如果這些部分我們未來有機會的話一定會請相關的單位跟這些用人的機關來做商量就是說針對原住民朋友任公職的權益怎麼來做擴大或保障"},{"start":828.712,"end":855.827,"text":"好 謝謝您那麼最後一個問題我想要請教的就是有關於警察特考的部分警察的工作相當的辛苦還有危險原住民從事警察工作的比例是相對是比較高的因為目前我們原住民占臺灣的總人口數大約在2.6%左右但是在警察當中是原住民的比例"},{"start":857.087,"end":884.652,"text":"卻是已經超過3%我們原住民一直都希望是不是可以在原住民特考的項目當中呢增設一般警察人員的項目可是呢不管是在行政或立法討論已經非常久了到現在都一直沒有下文如果您擔任考試委員您覺得原住民特考是不是應該可以增設一般警察人員的項目"},{"start":886.186,"end":913.192,"text":"我剛剛跟委員也報告就是說徵社的部分還是要用人機關他有這樣的需求主動提出來那如果說將來有機會進到考試院的話我們相關單位我能夠跟他來做溝通的就在這一點就是說如果沒有提出來我們主動跟用人機關來商議是不是可以需要這樣的一般警察人員的項目像在近年在各地的這個"},{"start":914.292,"end":917.294,"text":"監製副院長、副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長"},{"start":936.997,"end":950.495,"text":"有需要原住民的警察因為在跟當地原住民溝通其實在文化上的隔閡在語言上的隔閡確實有很大的困擾"},{"start":952.057,"end":974.948,"text":"在座談的過程當中確實大家有表達對於原住民警察的需求所以我也當然未來如果您有這樣子的一個想法我想非常好那如果一直沒有辦法順利推動原住民特考增設警察的項目我想在這個法定的規定上一直"},{"start":975.848,"end":998.551,"text":"也是有存在這個漢格的問題所以我們希望未來可以一起努力來協調那最後一點時間我們講一些比較輕鬆的事情那麼因為這一次呢我們其實在所有的考試委員當中呢只有一位是原住民那麼我們在黨團登記的時候我坦白說我是抽籤抽到您的"},{"start":999.778,"end":1018.089,"text":"那大家問我說要不要換換去問原住民的這個考試委員的候選人我說不要那因為我想透過這樣子的質詢那我準備多一點跟原住民相關的這個議題也可以藉這個機會提醒您還有其他非原住民的考試委員我想"},{"start":1018.929,"end":1019.189,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"157704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b706330cddef90fcbee1c4bb3245ee31dfdd063ef1f738005af671aa97a5015985c895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"15:20:19 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來討論要求保訓會處理結果保訓會還是什麼都沒做"},{"start":200.714,"end":229.537,"text":"在2024年的今天當整個台灣社會為了精誠的公務員被霸凌到選擇結束自己的生命整個社會都在哀傷都在憤怒的時候我必須要老實的講上一屆的考試院難辭其咎上一屆的考試院難辭其咎沒有把他們該做的事情做好"},{"start":230.582,"end":249.381,"text":"導致到2024年的時候我們竟然要在國會裡面透過人事同意權的審查來一一的請教你們支不支持在公務人員保障法裡面制定反霸凌條款這早就該做的事啊邱老師您認不認同我的說法"},{"start":250.287,"end":278.931,"text":"我想這個發生霸凌的事件是令人心痛的那這個部分既然以前的考試委員有提出來我覺得應該要追蹤應該要追蹤嘛我希望您回去考試院以後好好的追蹤問一下我們考試院的同仁當初為什麼2021年開始2022年開始搞到現在2024年什麼事都沒有做這是我對您的第一點期許跟要求"},{"start":280.046,"end":309.071,"text":"接下來你贊不贊成公務員納入職業安全衛生法這個兩個可能是不太一樣的體系所以你贊不贊成我覺得有保障法公務員要有保障法您是不是知道職業安全衛生法跟公務員保障法這兩套規範規範的密度差別有多大"},{"start":311.937,"end":334.454,"text":"我對於職業安全衛生法並不是那麼的清楚我期許喔!被提名人你有機會當考試委員花一點時間去瞭解兩件事情第一件事情是職業安全衛生法的規範密度為什麼比我們公務人員保障法高這麼多為什麼因為它有罰則第二個為什麼這麼多公務員的團體"},{"start":339.844,"end":368.277,"text":"我們基層的警消希望把它納入職業安全衛生法因為公務人員保障法裡面的保障就不足嘛完全不足嘛才有這麼強烈的聲音嘛但問題是什麼為我們一般的民眾出生入死的打火弟兄們當他們看到一個一個弟兄犧牲了他們自己寶貴的生命發出怒吼的時候"},{"start":369.244,"end":376.206,"text":"我們的政府卻是無動於衷該做的事情一直都沒有做"},{"start":377.381,"end":402.767,"text":"好不容易在去年的時候當整個社會沸騰一場又一場的大火帶走了這麼多消防弟兄的生命他們本來要在凱道集結他們本來要在凱道抗議結果民進黨政府承諾他們我們會修法但是他們的期待又落空了一直到今年"},{"start":405.369,"end":422.346,"text":"這個會期我們的立法院沒有把他們納入職業安全衛生法我們把他納入消防法我們告訴這些打火的弟兄說我們在消防法裡面我們設置了一個專章"},{"start":424.11,"end":451.558,"text":"我們設置了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章為什麼要在消防法裡面設置安全衛生防護的專章就是因為等一下我們會討論到的事情是您另外一個任務就是因為現在公務人員保障體系的安慰辦法太糟糕了太糟糕了但是我們的政府又不願意把他們納入"},{"start":453.511,"end":481.904,"text":"職業安全衛生法裡面所以我們的政府承諾他們什麼承諾他們說我們在消防法裡面設了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章這件事情邱老師清楚嗎這個部分我必清楚那這個資訊可能要麻煩對提名人要再回去補足一下因為在整個公務人員保障法的體系裡面我們現在出現了雙軌"},{"start":484.212,"end":503.068,"text":"我為什麼說出現雙軌一般的公務人員是用安全衛生辦法但是我們對於消防弟兄我們給他希望能夠有更好的保護所以在消防法裡面設了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章"},{"start":504.124,"end":531.662,"text":"但是那個消防人員衛生防護的專章裡面他裡面所設置的什麼他裡面所設置的各種委員會他裡面所設置的防護小組追本溯源還是要回到公務人員保障法裡面那這個我必須要跟邱老師報告這些啦恐怕都是當一個考試委員要去掌握的基礎資訊是的"},{"start":534,"end":562.825,"text":"警消的權益必須要好好保護警消的權益必須要好好保護我想整個社會都認同但我們大家不認同的是什麼我們大家不認同的是當現在的這個政府一再的欺騙一再的拖延我們要這些警消的同仁繼續冒險犯難犧牲生命到什麼時候我為什麼說一再的欺騙一再的拖延"},{"start":563.854,"end":592.816,"text":"您知道我們立法院在11月12號所修正的消防法我們的總統今天此時此刻今天公告了今天公告了消防法的修正條文但是被提名的你知道嗎我們剛剛所講的消防人員安全衛生防護的專章你知不知道"},{"start":593.997,"end":619.327,"text":"開始施行了沒有這個具體的細節我並不清楚我跟您報告我們消防人員安全衛生防護的專章我們的立法院當初希望給我們的行政機關方便我相信絕大多數的立委沒想到我們給他們方便他們當隨便"},{"start":621.349,"end":649.252,"text":"為什麼我說給他們方便他們當隨意便我這個禮拜我在立法院召開了公聽會這個公聽會的重點就是怎麼強化對於我們警察對於我們消防同仁的保障那場公聽會我直接請教消防署派來的代表說我們現在三讀修正通過也就是今天總統公告"},{"start":650.421,"end":676.782,"text":"要施行的消防法裡面的消防人員安全衛生防護專章當初立法院授權施行日期由行政院決定您知不知道他們決定施行日期什麼時候才要開始施行我跟邱老師說明五年以後五年以後邱老師您覺得"},{"start":678.408,"end":701.056,"text":"這樣的行政院有負起他該負起的責任嗎我想這個施行日期的制定他可能行政機關會有他的考慮但是警消警消的生命非常的重要所以我覺得這個部分應該要加速應該要加速我希望"},{"start":703.339,"end":723.844,"text":"你的聲音我們大家今天的聲音我們行政院院長卓榮泰都會聽到因為如果行政院院長卓榮泰不好好承諾我們立法院三讀通過的針對消防人員安全衛生的防護專章的條文"},{"start":724.898,"end":753.834,"text":"既然五年以後才要施行我們這些立法委員修這個消防法的立法委員恐怕都已經不在立法院了施行日期給他們定我們的行政院可以這樣幹我們的行政院可以這樣幹但為什麼這個跟考試院會有關係邱老師你一定或許心裡面會覺得有點納悶"},{"start":755.796,"end":783.43,"text":"我是要當考試委員我們的行政院消防法裡面針對於我們打火英雄安全衛生防護的專章他們目前的計畫要五年以後才施行跟你有什麼關係我跟你直接報告為什麼會跟你們有關係當這個專章在正式施行以前針對有關於消防人員的安全防護請問要適用什麼辦法"},{"start":786.473,"end":809.641,"text":"公務人員的保障法公務人員保障法19條寫得非常抽象非常抽象沒有辦法具體的落實沒有辦法具體的實踐也沒有定任何的罰則公務人員保障法19條如果有用的話我們今天沒有必要站在這邊討論這個問題"},{"start":812.092,"end":837.961,"text":"問題在哪裡在公務委員保障法下面所授權的定定的是公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法您知道這個辦法幾年沒有修了嗎十年沒有修了在過去這十年的時間當中啊台灣的公民社會各式各樣我們錦霄的同仁"},{"start":839.209,"end":865.624,"text":"要求要修安全衛生防護辦法我第一次在立法院服務的時候2018年那時候發生了大火很多消防弟兄走了我們行政院人事總處我們考試院的保訓會在那一屆的國會承諾要求安慰辦法現在已經是2024年"},{"start":867.757,"end":889.286,"text":"從第9屆的國會到第11屆的國會安慰辦法一條都沒有修過掌管安慰辦法修訂的是哪一個機關邱老師知道嗎是哪一個機關掌管這個安慰辦法的修訂應該是群聚部吧"},{"start":891.789,"end":919.23,"text":"是保訓會沒有關係啊但是保訓會通過的安慰辦法最後還是要誰通過考試院院會嘛所以考試委員責任重大不是只有考試還有公務員的保障我們的考試院從2018年到2024年自己可以修的安慰辦法"},{"start":920.1,"end":947.691,"text":"不需要透過立法院立法院早就授權了可以整整十年沒有修邱老師你可以接受嗎我想委員的關切如果有這個機會我會盡量協助考試院的同仁盡快把他的法律修訂好我希望你如果出任考試委員不是只有協助考試院的同仁恕我直言強力要求"},{"start":949.455,"end":977.114,"text":"強力要求考試院的怠惰過去這幾年所釀成的悲劇從安慰辦法下面的消防人員到公務人員保障法下面職場受霸凌的公務員這不是都是活生生血淋淋的例子嗎考試委員重不重要在現行的體制下他當然重要消極的不作為對社會所造成的創傷"},{"start":980.529,"end":1003.117,"text":"血腥斑斑的例子不都在我們眼前嗎是的我現在在給你機會展現決心我想這個委員的關心我不但是會帶回去如果有這個機會的話我也會盡我最大的力量來督促他們目前的安慰辦法最大的問題"},{"start":1004.778,"end":1031.276,"text":"是完全沒有發責剛剛您在回答我的問題的時候我聽你說出來了代表你有用心有做基本的功課再下一個關鍵的問題我們的保訓會我們的考試院花了納稅人的錢找了台大的教授做了研究報告在2021年的時候就已經告訴我們考試院了"},{"start":1032.685,"end":1061.601,"text":"這個安慰辦法沒有罰則根本沒有用你贊不贊成修改公務人員保障法增訂法則這個在我們院長的被提名人他有做出這個宣誓就是我們將來會盡快來提出保障法的這個修正案盡快多久我記得他承諾是下個會期要提出來下個會期都要提出來"},{"start":1062.642,"end":1090.718,"text":"所以如果你也進入考試院的話你會配合一起完成這個承諾是嗎我會盡力從2002年開始我們的國家的考機制度大概一直延續到現在甲等75%乙等大概25%丙等鳳毛麟角丁等非常罕見"},{"start":1091.735,"end":1117.678,"text":"整個大的picture是這個樣子針對現行的考機制度假等的人數比例不可以超過75%您覺得合理嗎這個有非常多的討論歷年來曾經也有調整過我知道相關的討論我都拜讀過了我沒有要考求老師我直接問你的立場你認為合不合理我覺得這個部分是可以討論的"},{"start":1120.996,"end":1147.693,"text":"當然可以討論也討論了非常久我現在在請教你的立場你認為合不合理我還是覺得說這個部分是應該要大家有個共識因為很多的情況每個機關的這個負擔的程度其實不太一樣75%是不是過於僵化是不是在追求形式上面的公平這個是大家質疑的第一件事"},{"start":1148.769,"end":1173.641,"text":"但我要告訴邱老師跟您報告的是這已經不僅僅是不是只有形式公平的問題這可能造成了連形式上面的公平都做不到為什麼我這樣講來看一下我從2017年開始追蹤嘉義餅丁嘉義餅公務人考機的制度來看一下"},{"start":1175.013,"end":1201.59,"text":"結果檢認的家等以上超過95%現任的家等以上82%委任的最低階的公務員差不多才是到75%他出現了一個很清楚的圖像關接越高啊家等比例越高啊被提名的人覺得公平嗎"},{"start":1203.268,"end":12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敢秉持專業給執政當局來建言即使到威權時代蔣經國的時代他的各部位的部長都很敢勇敢建言勇敢提出他的政策"},{"start":685.464,"end":714.63,"text":"即使是這樣子但是我很遺憾的看到我們這個現在感覺不會所長的聲音的地位越來越降落了越來越不敢講話了這就是這個古代在講的所謂的大官馳鹿好鱷魚小官畏罪而解舌嘴巴結結巴巴的不敢講話"},{"start":716.977,"end":740.858,"text":"我想現在是我們很多普遍看到的整個的公務機構的風氣大家越來越多的高階文官考量的是政治正確甚至不專業這個對整個的士氣整個公務體系用人不能為財這個是一個"},{"start":744.433,"end":766.174,"text":"請問你如果你當上考試委員你如何來捍衛文官的中立讓文官能夠秉持專業良知為國家利益來做事謝謝委員行政中立是找回公務人員文官系統尊嚴我覺得是一個非常重要的工具"},{"start":766.84,"end":795.559,"text":"我在報告裡面也特別提到就是說公務人員他雖然是爬格子但是他很珍惜他所得到的這些位置尤其是主管職務所以公務員的系統理論上你主管掉非主管這算是一個重大的懲處可是如果我們在政黨輪替的過程裡面明天要就任今天就把市政府的副秘書長全部都把他通知他要撤換"},{"start":797.532,"end":800.998,"text":"這個會影響到沒有被撤換的文官體系在看"},{"start":802.449,"end":825.98,"text":"未來的選舉他是不是要靠邊站那這個東西公務人員的尊嚴他就沒有辦法能夠得到保障所以我覺得您剛才提到的就是說怎麼從行政中立裡面來開始著手那麼從行政中立法裡面各位可以看得到就是說他規範比較多的都是公務的體系包括人員、資源等等你不要去靠向政黨"},{"start":827.02,"end":852.407,"text":"但是反過來如果未來有機會我倒是會建議就是說我們不管是政務人員或者是政黨的活動你怎麼樣能夠規範不要逾越該有的規範來去要求我們現有的公務人員第三個問題要來請教你對於公務單位依法行政"},{"start":853.669,"end":874.777,"text":"及如何在依法行政之下有前瞻的思維我覺得這點非常的重要上個禮拜我在質詢我們這一個政府的前瞻計畫第5期已經最後一期總共花掉了8400億那主責單位是國發會我問國發會"},{"start":883.642,"end":910.94,"text":"這一個這八千四百億快要花完了我們的國家錢沾了嗎大家都在吵著錢不夠人不夠但是呢事實上看起來都在原地打轉這個不僅是剛才說那個川普要大砍這個公務單位我們自己也要去想"},{"start":912.472,"end":931.823,"text":"我們自己想我們這個公務人員為什麼沒有前瞻是不敢做不敢創新另外呢那個我們的國債一直舉債現在已經快要到六兆了快到六兆那我要請問你啊"},{"start":932.625,"end":941.811,"text":"柯文哲當台北市長號稱幫償還幫市府償還了570億你應該是副市長吧當時是那他這570億是怎麼還的為什麼他可以還錢各個縣市都在舉債我想這個我還是跟委員報告就是說在整個財政企業率"},{"start":957.697,"end":972.087,"text":"首長也是佔了很重要的一個關鍵首長如果不好大喜功他不會利用公家的資源來強化他在任期不必要的績效那麼他能夠節省"},{"start":973.393,"end":999.759,"text":"我舉個例子跟各位報告就是說像四大院他就節省了很多錢這是大家有印象的那首長的重視以後你把不該花的都節省下來那這個會形成一個機關的文化也就是說在這樣的領導的過程裡面你讓各局處能夠尊潔開支該用的用不該用的我們不要亂用這樣的話他財政機率就能夠建立"},{"start":1000.639,"end":1028.411,"text":"另外一個因為時間快沒了再來就是公務人員的慣性慣性就是說好像開車他只會一直要往前就一直往前要退後就一直退後以教育部為例像以前我們要開大學就一直開一直開一直開也不管那個掃紙化的趨勢一直開那現在掃紙化的照不到學生的就一直關一直關一直關"},{"start":1029.96,"end":1047.675,"text":"他只有一直開跟一直關這個在企業的思維是不可思議的不可思議的公務單位這個耗損多少啊所以我們教育部啊我們這20年來我們的教育我們的學生總人數減少了從500多萬現在400多萬少了100萬超過100萬但是我們的教育經費從1000多萬變到3000多萬多了三倍"},{"start":1058.55,"end":1063.899,"text":"就是這樣子的一個從企業的角度是不可思議的但是為這個單位就會這樣子做請問啊如果這個"},{"start":1069.065,"end":1093.7,"text":"如何讓龐大的36萬的公務大軍能夠跳脫這樣的一個舊思維能夠有前瞻的這個透過訓練或者是怎麼樣你覺得公務應該怎麼做謝謝委員就是說您提到了就是說不管是這個平庸之惡或者是慣性我倒完全認同就是說前瞻性是非常重要就公務體系"},{"start":1095.04,"end":1123.649,"text":"應該要脫除過去就是說把工作做完就算是完成他應該要強調效率而這個效率是不是能夠符合未來的這樣需求如果能夠兼顧這一點現在考試院也好人事行政總署應該也在因應這些方面對公務人員的考核要導向這個攻擊制也就是說你做了以後對國家社會是真正有攻擊我想這應該能夠避免這樣的一個弊端"},{"start":1124.309,"end":1144.777,"text":"所以未來有一件很重要的事情就是臺灣的人口的問題未來30年臺灣最重要的事情是人口的天翻地覆這一個少子化、高齡化、社會的定型但是我發現我們的公務單位幾乎都沒有這樣的一個思維"},{"start":1146.182,"end":1169.14,"text":"都還是停留在1970年代那種人口金字塔的思維用這樣的思維在定政策我們已經走向盜金字塔型而且是跑在世界的第一名啊跑在最前面了這個的政策的擬定讓我非常的驚訝非常的驚訝完全沒有對準國家"},{"start":1169.913,"end":1189.003,"text":"沒有看到這一個的情況所以有關於接下來包括考試的項目包括我們培訓的項目對這些公務單位如何因為這個從遴選包括訓練包括怎麼樣如何讓這些公務員有這樣子的思維的改變"},{"start":1194.124,"end":1199.753,"text":"我想這是國安問題我們一定會特別重視在整個考選如果未來有機會我們一定會把這個東西納入參考謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"157703","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157703","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70632a7abfd5eddf10cd4bb3245ee31dfdd063ef1f738005af670b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"15:01:52 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NawiIwan NawiIwan NawiIwan NawiIwan Nawi"},{"start":102.558,"end":116.549,"text":"跟委員報告這是有的因為我在5月31號獲得總統府提名的時候就在第一個時間因為中午就結束嘛下午1點鐘的時候我就立刻聯繫中央黨部"},{"start":117.671,"end":135.411,"text":"有跟依照秘書長的指示我在星期一的時候6月3號就到我們中央黨部去做親自的說明依照這個考記會的這個意見我們提供書面的說明所以我是有說明的"},{"start":135.831,"end":143.893,"text":"你有說明,本席請你請教一個問題因為現在的幾個黨都紛紛擾擾我認為都沒有辦法超越黨派今天未來的投票時,你選擇這個政府時萬一國民黨來開戰,其黨會如何?你會想辦法?"},{"start":164.954,"end":179.699,"text":"黨部會有他自己的規定．或是他自己的考量．這個部分我是尊重我們黨的決定．但是如果有幸進去到考試院．依照憲法的規定．考試委員本來就超脫黨派"},{"start":180.68,"end":198.6,"text":"這次提名有看到兩位國民黨一位原住民其實他是跨黨派所以我從開始參與的時候我就沒有這個概念說他是哪一個黨哪一個派這是國家的事情保障國家文官制度的一個該做的工作"},{"start":199.801,"end":214.972,"text":"因為聽出來你的說明 我覺得很好可以超越黨派、可以替一個國家做事是很大的影響所以在這今天 大家會問你一些問題在第二天的時候 剛才你有報告來賓你身為台北市的議員"},{"start":224.5,"end":229.722,"text":"提案很多：若在本縣有你注意到：你的第一個提案：就是選辦法：你提案來臨：就是把我們現在的分分樓樓：在那一萬多年"},{"start":240.261,"end":254.487,"text":"的問題出在這 因為你提這樣的時候 你是提說要附帶新聞集我再問一下 到你現在已經過了十幾年了 你這個生活因為時空背景不一樣 環境也不一樣 你的生活到目前為止"},{"start":261.77,"end":273.121,"text":"你會有改變嗎?這個提案來因為這個提案當中有夠二讀的時候三讀都沒有因為我們當時的王院長我們也可以大家多溝通、多協調還可以來選擇這個法但是我們有起來了解說"},{"start":285.433,"end":287.117,"text":"在第一次議會的時候﹐你剛才說的時候﹐是怎麼不去說出這個憲法法﹐是不是就這個機會來說一下﹐來"},{"start":296.647,"end":320.476,"text":"好的我對這方面其實過去因為那是在剛開始在擔任立法委員的時候提出來的所以我對整個相關事情的這個評估可能沒有那麼的清楚但是我覺得我們提出這個想法其實是可以來討論就是怎麼樣讓這個我們的制度是比較合理的"},{"start":321.316,"end":331.681,"text":"尤其是要不要附身份證這個銀牌的部分怎麼樣去認證如果是有一個更好的方法或是大家有一個共識的情況之下我覺得是可以討論的"},{"start":333.211,"end":340.315,"text":"現在的所解釋是 希望大家都有共識的人來做比較好因為我認為 長久以來在2012年那時候幾十年我們的國民黨的執政沒有發動"},{"start":354.461,"end":366.424,"text":"這就是北省的支持所以在時空變靜的時候我相信你選擇這個選擇也有你當時的想法但是你未來的改善就是說我們能夠協調好、參選好這是最重要的"},{"start":376.447,"end":392.797,"text":"本身也覺得你有你的專業因為我看出來的時候你包括對海巡署這個單位你非常有專業也有你未來的時候可以提出你的專業來處理"},{"start":399.144,"end":404.109,"text":"這個問題因為考試院就是我們的公務人員最近大家都紛紛擾擾說話就是做得不好"},{"start":419.246,"end":433.554,"text":"我聽人家霸凌這個問題的時候 中央有處理要不夠處理的當中 問題的處理很大在這 我要去請教一個問題現在我們最近有 你應該有關心那個謝毅龍在基隆的大廈後面面前"},{"start":446.892,"end":450.513,"text":"我想我們行政機關都是要依法行政"},{"start":476.931,"end":484.683,"text":"對啦當然要依法行政啦我現在跟你說的這也依法行政啦因為這個編輯不是他已經沒說"},{"start":490.388,"end":512.514,"text":"公務令員的主席他還要有公務令員的主席他是現有的政府部門他未來如果有公家機關還要來用的時候他還是還要有主席我們的面子不能讓他做公務令員是我們要選他"},{"start":514.902,"end":535.008,"text":"全屆委員會破關後．該送去公務人員的組織．是否這樣來請你回答一下是的依照這個考試法的規定這個要打丁等例如是丁等或是兩次大過免職"},{"start":535.868,"end":558.217,"text":"他必須有一定法定的程序所以考機法裡面有規定幾項的那個要件比如說你是背叛國家、貪污等等但是這個部分他還是要經過一個考機會的一個程序所以他今天免除這個指揮官是不是在行政程序上面還可以再做更周延一點但是另外一方面"},{"start":559.577,"end":583.666,"text":"真的如果這個部分要進行處理還是可以送到監察院監察院有懲戒懲戒會那邊懲戒法院那邊做判定才可以剝奪他的公務人員的資格所以他是有不同的程序也不同的這個規定所以有的不知道說他不用這、他沒套路不是這樣是要判決之後在這幾十年來"},{"start":592.576,"end":597.227,"text":"我們可以保證國務院委員會的考目中位置及死者"},{"start":598.96,"end":610.668,"text":"有兩千多案都有判決．不過就是說．他的考試要如何處理．如何處理．因為我委員會來自之前．我們知道之前．本身要如何做考試．要如何可以在場．我們的長官、我們的主管．可以如何鼓勵．有時候沒有款式的人．"},{"start":624.978,"end":642.672,"text":"每一屆九、九年要考試的選﹑不是說﹑個人的人﹑個人來考試﹑沒有個人經常請教﹑來考試﹑不是這樣﹑所以﹑我問你後面﹑新任﹑在這個節目會時﹑我們去﹑管理好﹑因為是﹑為什麼會考試﹑就是論理會時﹑他會覺得說﹑"},{"start":654.707,"end":662.824,"text":"他沒有背景,還有要照顧的你們的團委說要照顧的,要有人拍他的結果拍他的都是"},{"start":663.993,"end":686.073,"text":"無款式、無主管、認真扮演的人所以我認為我們的考試院．可以再做好、再補充．困難的人、認知的人、老的條．但在這最主要、最主要的．"},{"start":686.803,"end":701.638,"text":"就是我們各種公務人員的法律法的當中你沒有包括不好好的公務人員繼續壓制做公務人員這個是最差勁的、最嚴重的"},{"start":709.677,"end":728.11,"text":"我非常敬佩委員我是覺得行政機關就像一個大家庭大家應該有同理心讓自己的員工所屬都能夠像自己的家人自己的朋友、自己的夥伴大家一起為政府來做服務為民眾做服務"},{"start":728.951,"end":746.383,"text":"所以這個部分我是覺得我會把委員的高見帶回去考試院如果有這個機會的話跟他們多多討論怎麼樣建立一個比較好的一個制度讓我們的工作人員能夠在一個比較合理的對待環境裡面充分發揮他的能量"},{"start":747.421,"end":753.11,"text":"因為我認為世代不一樣以前做國民委員說實在的大家都想說我們就覺得說可以考到我們也覺得很榮幸的去做但是背景不一樣"},{"start":763.161,"end":778.286,"text":"環境也不一樣的時候有時候不是說大家都會覺得說人家Q、人家80、人家什麼但我覺得那個制度要透明化、要做好這是最重要的"},{"start":780.887,"end":797.492,"text":"在這裏面我再跟你討論一下我們的消防也好、健康也好有一個職業安全衛生法和公務人員有一個保障公務人員的款在這裏面有一個守護法現在這裏面有一個保護法我覺得在這裏面你認為"},{"start":806.016,"end":811.863,"text":"是怎樣我們的公務人員有甚麼做不到的應該要來參與這個講話嗎來請你回答一下"},{"start":816.679,"end":839.942,"text":"成立工會是一個選擇但是我們在成立工會有沒有其他的方式是可以來達到我們的目的比如說員工的福利、工作環境的條件甚至他有一些爭議的時候怎麼處理還有他的主管機關、上級主管機關怎麼要刻以他的責任這個部分能夠周詳的去考慮"},{"start":840.743,"end":862.866,"text":"我覺得公會法當然是一種方式但是我們要考慮到公部門的一個公法之間的關係跟人民的安全福利的一個關係但是是不是現在送到大院來的協會法也是一個方式我覺得這兩個法之間應該大家來討論一下看看是用什麼樣的方式是比較合理的"},{"start":863.547,"end":890.797,"text":"因為這個法﹑我們公布法﹑就是有辦法去處理﹑有辦法去懲戒這是最重要的問題在這裏面 我覺得剛才本席就跟你說過了我們做考試院裏面的委員﹑就是抄議的黨派那未來你有帖子 你要給過關大家投票用台幣的時候 你想要賺"},{"start":892.017,"end":895.286,"text":"考試院來賓很想要做的事情：是否可以發表"},{"start":900.592,"end":922.808,"text":"我想如果有機會到考試院我對這個考試制度的研究我是非常有興趣因為每一個國家的制度不一樣我們常常講說新加坡、日本或哪裡的制度比較好但是它是不是適合在台灣因為台灣有不同法的體制行政系統不太一樣這是一個我想要做的"},{"start":924.249,"end":943.617,"text":"國內有很多的很重大的政策比如說離岸風電、淨林碳排這些相關的技師們或者是專業人才怎麼去認證我覺得這一點也是非常重要因為這是牽涉到我們國家的永續發展也牽涉到我們國家的制度怎麼樣才讓真正的專業能夠發揮他的專長"},{"start":947.239,"end":974.211,"text":"所以類似這樣當然另外一方面因為我過去也參與一些國際的活動我覺得要爭取國家的權益非常重要就是對國際事務的關心所以涉外能力就是他對外的能力他對國際上參與其實非常重要就像我剛剛報告裡面提到的現在的這個全球塑膠公約這個可能會管理因為台灣的塑膠可能是百分之六、七十都是外銷的"},{"start":975.131,"end":994.307,"text":"所以會不會影響到我們的外貿所以這個跟國家的經濟發展非常有關係所以對高階公務人員或者一般公務人員的英文的能力或者社外的能力、國際事務的關心我覺得這一點我會盡我的力量來協助考試院"},{"start":995.342,"end":1010.087,"text":"因為在這裏我覺得你剛才的抱負來臨就是你的專業因為你也很快擔任到我們的環保署的副署長所以聽你說這樣是很專業我經常說一句話"},{"start":1014.768,"end":1024.314,"text":"Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi Iwan NawiIwan Nawi Iwan Nawi"},{"start":1035.16,"end":1039.363,"text":"我們的理念 我覺得對台灣來說非常重要所以要借重你的戰略 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.807,"text":"這個留不住人才有蠻多因素的首先在任何機關不管是中央機關或是地方機關尤其越基層的機關在三級政府的鄉鎮公所幾乎是留不住包括土木包括工程類的人才"},{"start":67.668,"end":95.634,"text":"那這主要也是來自於說第一個他們的工作辛苦第二個他們本身在工作上附帶的風險高第三個如果這些人才他們到民間他們會有更好的待遇所以變成在於這些人留在公務系統替我們政府來做事的意願是不高的所以我想要請教邱老師你對這一塊未來你當考試委員後你會有怎樣的一個具體的主張嗎"},{"start":97.146,"end":115.052,"text":"謝謝蔡委員我想這個工程類科的缺額其實是非常明顯的像去年的話大概缺了130幾位建築的話我講的是土木建築的話大概是缺了11位所以缺額的情況是非常清楚的"},{"start":115.672,"end":141.087,"text":"但是由他的能不能留任跟他的大環境是有關係跟我們的大環境有關係外面的這個待遇師部門的待遇可能比公務員好一點所以這個是整個經濟環境的一個狀況那考試院這邊我看到相關的資料他們是希望說也可能從私人部門也能夠讓專機人員轉任公務員這是一個應急之道"},{"start":142.048,"end":169.221,"text":"但是另外一方面在考試方面是不是讓這個工程類科的人他將來在找工作的時候能夠切合這個用人機關的一個需求所以這個部分的溝通其實非常重要我們準考試委員我想跟你分享一下因為我看到好多基層的這個工程界的第一個他們不想留在工程單位"},{"start":170.277,"end":188.193,"text":"他們在工程單位他們盡量會去爭取去調到非實際工程單位這是第一個我覺得比較麻煩的第二個就是說他們在公務員任職期間他們會盡量去考計師只要一旦他們有民間的計師的牌照他們就離開公務系統這個非常的"},{"start":190.205,"end":210.068,"text":"可惜啦因為我覺得我們最近有這麼多的預算包括這幾年的前瞻預算以及公務預算我們在投資這些工件的一些計畫的時候基本上都是需要這些基層的公務員他們在第一線不管是在做工程的設計或者是事後工程的把關都是需要他們"},{"start":211.049,"end":236.536,"text":"那當然今年8月1號我看到行政院有公布一個命令就是針對工程人才無法留在公務系統他們有做幾個是用獎金包括要用專業家籍專業家籍說你實際從事公務我就每個月給你三千塊包括說我給你留任獎金留任獎金就是分第一年、第三年、第五年那就給他三萬塊、四萬五跟六萬年底給"},{"start":237.236,"end":260.813,"text":"就是說他希望把他的配他的薪資待遇拉高然後來促使這些人是希望他留在公務但是我覺得這個火候還是不夠啊力道還是不夠因為我相信真正這些好的人才他在民間一定會有更好的待遇所以這部分涉及到了整個這些優秀的人才而且他實際上從事公務"},{"start":262.25,"end":286.966,"text":"我覺得最基本的還是待遇不足的問題那我想就教一下我們被提名人就這樣你覺得好的人才到底要怎麼樣才讓他可以留在我們的公務系統呢委員是的確是看到一個很重要的議題現在在外面缺工的情況是非常嚴重那當然公司部門的待遇的相互競爭也是一個議題"},{"start":288.207,"end":313.59,"text":"我現在看到像學校因為我過去在學校服務學校裡面有所謂的彈性薪資彈性薪資意思就是說我有一個專案的計畫我們可以把這個經費調整調整以後它就會超過了它現在的本質的經費這個薪資甚至有些薪資大學教授可能高過於部會所長"},{"start":314.671,"end":326.596,"text":"所以這種情況也是有的所以我的意思是說我非常贊同委員的看法在薪資結構方面的調整有沒有更大的一個彈性甚至運用一些專案計畫的一個經費來做這個挹注對 所以我是覺得這個檢討起來就專業人員我們不要讓他的專業讓他平庸化"},{"start":338.778,"end":357.453,"text":"這幾年他有專頁,這類專頁值得多少Page值得多少政府應該要給他的薪水就應該要盡量拉高,這是我一個主張我希望未來您當選考試委員後,你也可以支持這樣然後來支持這些基層的工程人員,可以嗎"},{"start":358.951,"end":371.031,"text":"那第二個是關於因為台灣的因為是考試院嘛那考試院當然在這個教考訓用這樣的一個一條邊"},{"start":372.359,"end":394.724,"text":"一條邊的方式當然這個也是跟一條邊的方式就是由考試院來尋找人才以及做人才上如何去發配到各機關去這是一條邊的一個方式但是在於我們鄰近的國家日本跟韓國他不是用這樣的方式他是直接由選才機關"},{"start":396.708,"end":418.393,"text":"選才之官自己辦考試然後自己去面試他想要的人這樣是兩條不同的形式那我想要請教我們被提名人你對於這樣兩個形式基本上你認為我們現在的方法會優於日韓嗎還是日韓有它的優點"},{"start":419.779,"end":447.362,"text":"跟委員報告我們公務人員的這個體制文官受到保障或者是他的臨用其實是憲法的一個架構之下所以公務人員要進來的話他必須經過國家的考試但是國外確實是有很多的一些測驗的機構或者民間機構來做選擇甚至他考試的時候可能分階段第一個可能是基本考基本類科的考試再來就是用人機關的面試"},{"start":448.123,"end":449.804,"text":"Iwan NawiIwan Nawi"},{"start":471.799,"end":483.192,"text":"被提名的你也不排斥說未來我們打破一條邊讓各機關可以他們自行去臨選不管是他們自行召辦考試、自行去面試、去找他們要來臨載"},{"start":486.465,"end":507.637,"text":"這一條選材方式你認為也不用去排斥就對了我覺得長期來看是可以來討論可以來考慮但是現在的情況就是說以公務人員的體系來或許跟用人機關之間有更密切的一個聯繫我覺得這個部分是可以在現在就可以來進行但是未來剛剛委員關心的這個部分"},{"start":508.217,"end":536.221,"text":"是不是兩個軌道這個方式這是比較涉及到長期的一個制度性的問題所以我想我們我會把這個意見請教我們的考試院同仁來進行更整密的一個研究好那再來就叫一個就是關於這個商調的因為現在很多機關事實上在公務員事實上常常遇到商調的時候要原機關同意"},{"start":536.889,"end":546.565,"text":"那很多公務員礙於沒有辦法取得原機關的同意他可能會做一件事他重新考因為我沒辦法調到其他的機關我訂課"},{"start":548.646,"end":574.902,"text":"我重考然後再想辦法分發到其他的一個機關那我認為說基本上這樣的一個方式變得說他對於公務員的商調相對沒有彈性他就是卡在原機關同意甚至我們之前有在爭取就是說你公務員他有1到3歲的子女要養的時候我們盡量讓他擴大他的彈性可以到他"},{"start":575.562,"end":604.031,"text":"以就養、撫養小孩子方便的地方來做公務機關的一個任職但是還是原機關要同意所以這個原機關同意這件事就造成了公務員他們流動的一個困難那我想要請教貝琦你上任後就這樣一個商調的現行的規定有可能來做你的主張來做一些修正或者是你的看法"},{"start":605.55,"end":627.148,"text":"我想我這個部分會把委員的意見帶回去讓我們考試院來做一個討論特別是這個部分剛剛提到是非常實際的問題例如說有很多的育嬰假的他要請假或是他要上吊的時候他必須經過原機關同意但是原機關可能就沒辦法同意讓他就非常的困難只好另謀出路"},{"start":627.968,"end":645.091,"text":"但是這個部分是牽涉到未來國內的資源人才庫怎麼樣建立一個比較完善的一個流用的一個制度或者是將來跟戶調的一個方式我想這個涉及到整個人才庫的一個建立"},{"start":645.672,"end":662.107,"text":"那委員的這個關心我會把他帶回去因為未來如果你當選後考試委員畢竟就是跟公務員就是要站著會所以未來也許你的立場會跟立法院不一樣可是我期待的考試委員應該要更站在公務人員的一個立場"},{"start":662.988,"end":678.793,"text":"把公務人員的心聲把他帶出來那讓我們在未來我們立法院在立法的時候可以聽到你們替公務人員發聲然後我們來來修法修的也許讓他更有彈性或者是讓公務員更可以符合他們在"},{"start":679.053,"end":708.325,"text":"在任職的時候的一個比較好的一個福祉的一個環境還有我剛剛有講到的考試的一個問題公務員考試現在公務員考試很多機關事實上還是有所謂的體能考試那我常常遇到遇到那種就是比試過了結果就卡在這個體能的一個測試尤其是像在拉單槓或者是百米的跑步或者是立定跳遠"},{"start":710.132,"end":724.373,"text":"有時候就差一點點差一點點 變成他那一次的比試就沒了未來要再重考他就要把時間繼續耗在他的準備考試上"},{"start":725.675,"end":750.485,"text":"那我覺得這件事也有它不合理的地方就是說既然我筆試已經過了那為什麼我這個筆試不能仿照像會計師他有做保留的幾年因為他是差在提示那結果就等於說他要把他的時間耗在準備考試身上對 所以我想要請教這部分我們被提名人"},{"start":756.135,"end":771.566,"text":"考試資格的保留跟未來的體能訓練的部分是不是可以有一個比較彈性的處理這其實是應該要討論的我是覺得這個部分我會把這個意見帶回去讓我們同仁一起來研究"},{"start":772.947,"end":786.933,"text":"基本上呢如果我們回歸到憲法的規定這些憲法的規定就是公務人員政府不應該歧視任何的一個種族啊或者是一個人一個族群嘛所以在公平的這個倒也不是歧視這個是變成說"},{"start":788.394,"end":807.828,"text":"我每個人的體能狀況不一樣嘛像有的人他拉杠杆比較適合像我現在啦可能一下都拉不上去所以縱使我很高科技的沒好因為我一次都拉不上去的不過這個當然是有年齡的年齡事實上也已經超過了就是我講的意思就是說"},{"start":808.922,"end":830.662,"text":"因為卡在體能這個因素造成他的筆試無效要等來年再來一次我覺得這件事情是有檢討的空間那我也希望說你不只是要把他帶回去而已你們應該考試委員嘛你們可以有你們的一個見解很多事情我知道要特別修緩不過本來這個就是"},{"start":834.405,"end":859.76,"text":"現在五權分立的一個架構之下那考試委員我希望就是說可以聽取民意的考試委員可以接地氣的大家的意見你們如果收集起來你們覺得要怎麼去修法你們事實上還是有你們可以提出修法的建議嘛然後由我們立法院這邊看大家就修法這邊來交換意見我希望考試委員可以多一點"},{"start":860.88,"end":879.968,"text":"主張然後認為說應該哪部分要調整那就應該要替這些公務員來做主張以及這些參加考試的人我想這個在未來的考試規則裡面我們再仔細的去思考有沒有其他比較彈性的一個做法或者是說比較合理的一個處置"},{"start":882.608,"end":907.653,"text":"最後我想請教貝提銘人因為貝提銘人你的自傳裡面你也強調說國家考試為國舉財那事實上你的專業是在海洋領域這一塊那你在海洋領域裡面有很多的一些你的主張跟見解那看起來現在台灣"},{"start":910.143,"end":936.377,"text":"賴清德在520就職的演說有確認三個國家方向其中一個就是探索海洋就是要把台灣是一個海洋國家我們台灣的人民是海洋的公民擁有海洋文化的DNA那所以如何讓台灣跟海洋是親近的那尤其未來我們知道包括在於這一個探會裡面其中燃炭的部分就是在強調這個"},{"start":938.494,"end":952.029,"text":"海洋要怎麼樣 未來造就了這些碳匯的價值或者是我們台灣因為過去海禁 我們跟海的距離太遠那未來我們要怎麼親近海洋"},{"start":953.374,"end":973.989,"text":"那這部分是不是有辦法從公務體系公務人員的一個訓練開始讓這個公務體系是可以更親近海洋的我想請教一下被提名人你有怎樣的報復讓你的對於台灣要親近海洋這個主張可以在你任職考試委員的時候讓他有更有發揮嗎"},{"start":976.469,"end":988.421,"text":"我以澳洲的海洋政策白筆書提出三個願景一個叫做Understanding就是我們關心海洋"},{"start":995.347,"end":1016.483,"text":"但是我們也要了解海洋然後再來是永續的利用海洋所以這個部分臺灣有那麼多的海洋資源而且我們是以海為生的一個國家包括我們的漁業、遠洋漁業包括我們的航運等等其實還包括我們現在談到這個近年碳排的時候燃炭的一個部分到底怎麼處理我覺得這個教育非常重要"},{"start":1016.983,"end":1044.022,"text":"當然這裡面不是說每一個部會都各做各的所以現在正在修訂的這個叫做國家海洋政策白皮書它就是一個統整的一個方向希望各個部會都能一起來做不管是科研的、我們的產業的發展還有包括我們的這個將來的資源的一個分配那最重要的就是環境的教育、海洋的教育所以我想這個部分應該可以大力的來推動那當然"},{"start":1045.102,"end":1072.904,"text":"很重要就是說親海愛海你必須要讓民眾接見海洋所以海岸的安全性它相關的設施它的相關的教育甚至跟地方上社區、學校、大學的結合這一點就非常的重要所以我想如果從這個方面一方面讓我們民眾來瞭解海洋、探索海洋但是更重要就是說我們追求我們相關的一些發展的機會讓國家能夠更為富強"},{"start":1074.943,"end":1100.321,"text":"那被提名有可能把海洋領域的一些專業知識或者是一些對海洋的瞭解有可能未來成為考試的命題嗎這個在海洋行政類科裡面它有分為幾個考試的科目那事實上我看過他們過去的這些考題都有這方面的知識包括海洋的一些科學基礎的東西"},{"start":1101.237,"end":1129.988,"text":"海洋科普的東西海洋政策的東西都有在這裡面所以我想以後應該考試院這邊會繼續加強這個部分就我還想跟北京朋友們分享以我的看法現在的公務人員對於海洋基本上還是保守甚至抗拒當然有例外就是海巡可能他們就親近海了嘛海委會當然他們就是以海為主但是我跟你分享的就是說你知道像農業部"},{"start":1132.063,"end":1155.389,"text":"從業部好幾千億的預算那其中關於漁業署多少預算你知道嗎我直接跟你說因為這個就100億而已三四千億的預算漁業署只有100億那這是為什麼就是因為不重視少了關心我相信署長你對海洋這麼認識你覺得台灣有幾個漁港是會看一看"},{"start":1160.725,"end":1182.697,"text":"我們去台灣看每一個國家事實上漁港漁港就是這個都市發展就是大概從港區開始往內陸發展結果台灣不一樣台灣是越走到港越破敗人口越老化越凋零然後那裡都沒有整修甚至你說我們的漁港有郵載可能一定一個郵載是十幾年前的事情後來就沒有郵載過了"},{"start":1185.518,"end":1204.238,"text":"所以現在那些漁港都充滿著這個被海浪衝擊然後造成的那些污漬都在那個牆壁上然後也沒有去整理我覺得這一個依北京沒有你對海洋的瞭解我們對於沿海地區的漁港它就是長這個樣"},{"start":1205.558,"end":1226.067,"text":"那這是為什麼呢就是公務員他的本質心態並沒有覺得漁港的一個美麗才是代表台灣這個海洋國家的一個美的一個開始沒有這樣的心態我覺得很可惜好謝謝蔡委員"}]}},{"id":"157709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157709","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063d0fb2dc7725e84fe4bb3245ee31dfdd0ce9dd923ede6ad7637a2079df6bf46255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"17:24:37 - 17:45:01","影片長度":"00:20:24","會議時間":"2024-11-29T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 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58.85那等別越高的報考率越低比其他公務人員考試平均報考率70%明顯偏低那為什麼會從110年報考人數更是斷崖式下滑就像您講的其實是受到足以的這個規定的這個衝擊"},{"start":380.774,"end":394.372,"text":"但是我們也很感謝過去這個考試院尤其是考試院的姚院長在原住民族的開缺還有在原住民族的考試他很清楚地知道原鄉地區的一個需求"},{"start":395.813,"end":412.86,"text":"但是在很多的文化推動下主語認證成為這個考試很重要的一個關鍵所以有幾方的一個說法本席要提出來的是原住民族的報考人數已經明顯偏低從110年主語認證執行以來又越來越低"},{"start":419.602,"end":440.074,"text":"這個當然是原住民族的語言發展法的規定讓許多原住民報考的公務人員很困難這個法施行三年後也就是110年原住民族參與公務人員特種考試的還有公費留考必須要取得足語認證"},{"start":441.835,"end":466.401,"text":"那前面已經取得資格的人可能需要足語的這個相關的學分所以在考選部109年修訂了公務人員特種考試原住民族考試規則之後在第三條的第二項規定從110年1月1號在報考的時候就一定要有足語語言能力初級以上的合格認證"},{"start":467.561,"end":481.908,"text":"在113年1月1日報考一、二、三等考試一定要取得原住民族委員會合法的原住民族語言能力認證﹐終極以上的合格證書"},{"start":484.186,"end":501.914,"text":"語言認證的卡關在110年人數已經降到一千多一千兩百五十二已經跟您所認知的三千有很大的差距了通過族語的原住民主要集中在七到十八歲的青少年"},{"start":502.754,"end":516.665,"text":"但是特考的報考人數大概都是集中在21到40歲平均年齡差不多30歲那有一些人可能某一些原因就錯過了學習的黃金時期"},{"start":518.071,"end":540.407,"text":"這當然有一個社會的影響第一個部分是我們長期在漢文化的影響下足語有一些流失但是又在整個社會氛圍的推動下又某種程度的被強迫的要把流失的足語給找回來這個在文化上當然是很重要一個認同可是在實際的"},{"start":542.208,"end":554.677,"text":"社會操作上確實有個案上的一些困難所以本席想要請問鄧平民仁請問您怎麼看待這樣一個事情非常謝謝委員就是說主語的認證在考試規則裡面應考資格的這樣要求"},{"start":560.848,"end":582.143,"text":"以我個人的了解就是說他是透過用人機關尤其是主管機關的一個意見的徵詢那麼在這種狀況下面如果說這個影響到原住民朋友的這樣的一個應考資格而他本身又是原住民的話這個是可以做檢討也就是說任何"},{"start":583.11,"end":597.736,"text":"主權任何一個國人他參與國家考試跟服公職的權利這個是應該要受到保障的我想這是可以未來不管是透過教考訓用的平台或者是說主管機關"},{"start":598.696,"end":621.869,"text":"他直接跟考選部來做應考資格的這樣商量這個主語的認證的部分是可以做到調整我個人認為如果有機會就像剛才跟委員報告就是說一定能夠參與的話我能夠把委員的意見能夠跟相關的這些業務單位來做這樣的一個反應我想這是我可以做的未來如果有機會的話"},{"start":623.455,"end":640.28,"text":"所以本席這邊有一個方法跟建議這個特考的主語認證那主語法在25條的第2項還有一個規定原住民族專責機關之公務人員還沒有取得原住民族主語認證者每年應該休息"},{"start":641.32,"end":657.925,"text":"修習一些學分原住民族的這個語言那他修習的時數由中央主管機關來訂定請問您贊不贊成去調整這個報考規定然後保留這個規定呢部長不管是委員或其他"},{"start":658.706,"end":674.595,"text":"任何的角度來提供這些方面的建議我剛才跟委員報告就是將來在不管是教考訓用的平台或者是考選單位直接跟這個用人機關、儲管機關來做商議這些都可以去納入考量"},{"start":675.055,"end":697.404,"text":"只要大家討論取得共識我剛剛跟委員報告就是說只要能夠符合應考的權利保障大家應考的權利保障大家服務公職的權利我想這個都值得被考量的謝謝所以你要知道這個報考人數驟降應該會是在考試院的被處理績效的這個部分是"},{"start":698.404,"end":716.599,"text":"所以在土木工程跟農業技術類科其實是我們很重要如果是在原鄉很需要的一個這個類科那常常錄取也不足耳那麼在每三四年對不起這三年來三四等的考試都錄取不足耳"},{"start":717.859,"end":733.909,"text":"總計三等考試不足的比例是40.31四等考試是25.77長年不足額的類科土木工程、農業技術三等考試土木工程類科不足額更高85.14農業技術類科55.73四等的土木類科不足額是62.6"},{"start":743.275,"end":765.592,"text":"6.1 農業技術類科是51.35那很重要的一點值得注意的是土木工程也就是您的專業這個類科缺人的情況是最嚴重的而且還不是只有原住民族特考但是原住民族特考特別嚴重但也是我們需要這個經常被提列需用名額最多的"},{"start":766.152,"end":787.962,"text":"那這個不足額跟比率也都是最高的那請問鄧提名人土木工程是您的專業您也是所有提名人當中唯一一位土木專業的人員所以對於土木工程那顆嚴重缺材的問題您有什麼看法您覺得是什麼樣的原因然後可以怎麼樣來解決或因應這個問題"},{"start":789.738,"end":817.817,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說土木建築這些專業技術類不管是在原民特考或者是在一般高普考都有缺額這裡面第一個我認為最大關鍵就是跟私人企業在競爭人才不管是在彈性、薪資、記憶力各方面公家招募人才的機制都沒有辦法跟私人競爭這是一個長期的隱憂第二個部分就是說在公部門"},{"start":818.871,"end":842.241,"text":"尤其是偏鄉我們觀察到的就是執行土木建築工程的執行工程的安全環境非常有問題也就是說它的關縮壓力讓這些專業技術人員他沒有辦法依法行政所以基於這兩點就是說我認為未來現在考選部考試院已經推動的專技人員的轉任"},{"start":844.562,"end":859.388,"text":"他未來可以對整個正式考試考選人才不足的部分他能夠用彈性取材的方式就有專技技證照的他就可以透過甄選機關有這樣的需求他能夠進到機關"},{"start":860.808,"end":888.952,"text":"但是我剛剛跟委員報告如果跟私人企業競爭的能力不足他還是沒有辦法第二個部分就是安全就是未來如果有機會參與考試院的業務我想我能夠做這些方面的建議就是怎麼樣建構我們基層土木建築工程人員在執行公務的時候他的一個安全的環境我覺得這個在制度上能夠給他做保護做避免比如說我們人是"},{"start":891.644,"end":916.855,"text":"這個陣風系統他能夠定期來關懷我們基層的工程人員你在過程有沒有受到不當的壓迫我覺得對他的保護對他留任的機率都很好當然最後因為這些工程人員工務繁重他都透過相關職系的轉任他就留掉也就是說在機關內部人才流失也是一個非常關鍵在這個部分"},{"start":918.456,"end":918.777,"text":"Iwan Nawi"},{"start":936.404,"end":955.134,"text":"謝謝鄧提名人所以您也相當程度的瞭解從公務機關的各種角度土木相關的工程人員的這樣一個問題所以最後一個問題本席想要請教您原住民族特考的職缺都位於比較偏鄉的地區"},{"start":956.815,"end":979.525,"text":"那107年到113年之間．機關所提報的職缺．六成的職缺．就在全國的55個原住民族鄉鎮市那提缺機關的地域的分布．以臺東縣、新北市、花蓮縣所在的機關最多但是目前涉及在都會的原住民族．已經將近一半"},{"start":980.731,"end":995.742,"text":"偏遠地區的任職條件跟職癌發展跟都會區我想您也很清楚知道也有一些差距自從姓名法開始實施之後那又有更大的一個比例上的差異所以這也是原住民族報考"},{"start":997.355,"end":1019.704,"text":"暴考率可能偏低的一個原因所以我們也可以發現近三年開缺越來越多可是足以認證的這個規定又讓人才供應不朽所以本席想請教您您是否如果有機會到考試院的話可以幫原住民爭取提升都會區的職缺嗎第二點"},{"start":1020.868,"end":1048.038,"text":"最近公務人員霸凌的事件受到關注您剛才也很了解這個土木類科的這個公務人員可能在職場上所遇到的問題那原住民在這裡面也有文化差異上的一個狀況所以我們想請考試院在原住民族公務人員身牽的這個相關的資訊本席也很期待您能夠向了解"},{"start":1048.598,"end":1068.686,"text":"土木、類科的直系人員一樣了解一下原住民族的公務人員在整個公務體系工作環境下的一個升遷那是不是在您的任內可以協助解決原住民的相關困難如果您有這個機會的話是,謝謝委員如果有這個機會"},{"start":1070.083,"end":1097.35,"text":"第一個就是參與考試院業務委員的指教我們一定把它全盤做一個瞭解就是說原住民朋友在公務體系他的工作狀況升遷是不是有受到這些該有的改善而沒有做的部分我想這個我會來參與那麼您剛剛提到的就是說原住民也好偏鄉也好除了剛才主語的認證我個人也一直觀察就是說"},{"start":1098.444,"end":1124.031,"text":"如果能夠按照職責的程度來做職務列等讓大家都能夠公平對待不會說工作多的錢少的官等小工作少的官等大現在我們講直轄市跟縣市要能夠齊一列等其實主要考量也在這一點我們都經歷過臺北縣的升格"},{"start":1125.174,"end":1146.826,"text":"升格對工作我個人的觀察沒有什麼變化但是科長馬上升一等副局長馬上升一等這個東西最大的好處在哪裡呢臺北縣原來人才流失非常嚴重不是跑來臺北市就是中央部會又進但是一旦升等以後當時留下來的現在都當了副局長"},{"start":1147.793,"end":1174.488,"text":"所以我覺得說縣市的劣等的綜合的檢討我覺得不應該再拖那這樣的話可以改善人才在偏鄉服務的一個意願偏鄉不是不好有山好山好水我個人就認為說比都市還要好這個可能要看個人的這個意願然後想法以前警察調萬華分局那個是很競爭現在警察是調"},{"start":1175.677,"end":1190.904,"text":"台東是第一志願我聽說因為輕鬆一樣的這個待遇所以我覺得這個都有各有喜好但是制度上如果能夠讓他公平的話我覺得應該是可以改善委員的建議我們會來參考如果有機會進到立法那考試院謝謝"},{"start":1192.017,"end":1206.338,"text":"那本席這邊還是提醒一下那在都會區職缺的這個爭取上您有沒有機會為原住民再多爭取都會區相關的職缺是 若有機會的話我們一定會把委員的意見帶進去好不好 謝謝"},{"start":1207.978,"end":1221.842,"text":"本席希望您如果有機會到考試院來投入跟服務的話那請把本席所提的這個問題列進很積極的一個考量跟積極的推動是 謝謝好 謝謝林委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"157702","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063366dfdcfe67d96204bb3245ee31dfdd063ef1f738005af67f0fba3fac4fb75495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"14:41:12 - 15:01:48","影片長度":"00:20:36","會議時間":"2024-11-29T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 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"end":1224.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1223.33346875,"end":1223.3672187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.069,"end":28.495,"text":"謝謝主席我請邱文彥委員請邱備提名人委員好邱委員我請你邱委員因為我們第8屆立委我們是同事現在主席也是同事為了你的事情我昨天還去請教國民黨"},{"start":29.991,"end":32.493,"text":"馬英九時代當環保署副署長2012年到2016年還是部分區"},{"start":50.446,"end":71.371,"text":"請問因為公務人員的忠誠度非常重要那你以前有當過國民黨執政期十幾的政務官立法委員那你或考試院提名前後是否有向黨部報備或者是徵求同意或者黨部來推薦你跟蘇委員報告"},{"start":72.878,"end":94.979,"text":"我是依據總統府秘書長在3月5號行文給全國150所大三院校還有包括幾個機關團體的方式來進行申請的這個過程當中我事實上只認為是"},{"start":96.463,"end":110.984,"text":"這是一個從大專院校徵才海選的過程我並不清楚還有其他的任何的管道這是第一個說明那第二個就是我認為這個考試院依照憲法的規定第88條的規定"},{"start":113.356,"end":142.751,"text":"那考試委員必須要超脫黨派之外依照法律來獨立行使職權所以我認為考試院應該不應該有政黨的色彩或者是政治的色彩而應該是超然獨立的為文官制度的領選培訓跟他的保障來盡力那我認為這兩點是希望所以你不是國民黨政黨推薦嗎我完全不知道還有這個管道"},{"start":144.884,"end":173.215,"text":"所以就讓立法院來做決定來投票看看你能不能獲聘會不會通過當然我們追蹤大院的任何決定好那等到投票結果再說了第二個問題你在國外念了碩士博士在UPenn嘛對不對是那你在那邊幾年"},{"start":174.833,"end":199.913,"text":"我在那邊七年,從1984年到1991年那你的小孩是不是有在那邊出生的老大在台灣出生,兩歲的時候跟著去念書小的在那邊出生那現在最近台灣有搞外國學歷搞到上街頭什麼的我倒是要問你一個在國外受教育的"},{"start":202.022,"end":226.428,"text":"我們因為留學、遷徙、移民或者是婚姻而不得不到國外去有一些外交官的小孩也在那邊出生就像你的小孩那他在國外念書回來到台灣以前是非常的平順那現在搞到這樣因為一個波瀾的學歷的問題"},{"start":228.646,"end":246.145,"text":"然後搞到現在全世界回來的伊學院校的像我看到在NYU的回來的也不能考試考試又不能實習那你的看法你當考試委你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":247.643,"end":267.074,"text":"各位報告我想這個很多事情我們不能單從一個個案或是一個特例來看待應該綜合性的來看待所謂的問題那如果我們回歸到憲法的一個規定憲法第15條人民的工作權本來就應該保障"},{"start":268.517,"end":293.052,"text":"所以我認為說婆婆醫生的問題是一個議題但是大家應該可以來非常平心靜氣的來討論這個議題到底是怎樣不應該是單獨針對某一個族群或者某一個群體我覺得這一點大家一起來討論但是過去考試院這邊事實上是"},{"start":294.033,"end":323.052,"text":"配合衛福部提出的考試規則所以任何的考試規則考試院在制定的時候都不是依照各個目的事業主管機關所提出來的相關需求或者是規定然後我們把它納入考試規則我的意思就是說你有到國外去受教育你應該會比較宏觀高度要夠以前"},{"start":324.393,"end":351.073,"text":"全世界九大地區的念醫學牙醫的藥學的回來到臺灣我們就直接認可他的學歷甚至於以前在日本只要念到博士學位考上日本的醫師執照回到臺灣就可以直接換證書喔那後來又要考試了那現在就九大地區的像南非、香港、日本等等"},{"start":352.37,"end":367.682,"text":"現在回來全部今年入學的全部都要回來考鑑定考試就是Pretest鑑定考試考完鑑定考試醫學的Pretest的及格率才10%牙醫的才6%"},{"start":372.708,"end":391.833,"text":"副院會試,考過之後再考第一階段第一階段考過之後才能實習那實習一年要到結束之前還要考一個臨床實地考叫做OSCEOSCE考過之後才能考第二階段"},{"start":393.683,"end":404.447,"text":"他二考過之後才有醫師證書然後進到教學院裡面才要進入PGY1、Y2還要兩年台湾這個制度差不多全世界第一名"},{"start":414.284,"end":436.699,"text":"這張會不會走回頭路現在在美國在你念哈佛大學念史丹佛啦像我們主席的小孩子在Texas嘛在Texas回來要途中要這樣一人一人考以前這樣是什麼意思啊台灣第一名台灣什麼都想搞是這樣嗎你在看我"},{"start":438.563,"end":456.185,"text":"謝謝蘇委員我想過去蘇委員對這個醫療系統都非常的清楚了對這個醫生的這個培訓的過程也非常清楚那我也回想到過去在賓州大學美國賓州大學呢他的醫學院是非常好的"},{"start":458.526,"end":479.844,"text":"有些國家的醫療水準培訓的嚴謹度是非常高的所以這個部分到底要不要分開來處理或者是說我們分級來處理其實我們必須要看一下衛福單位的意見醫護單位的意見來做一個合適的處理我想考試院這邊"},{"start":481.085,"end":509.113,"text":"如果我們有這個機會去服務的話我們會聽取各方的意見來做審測這個你一定要用宏觀的角度為這要拉高一點不然的話這樣每一個人都是鑽牛角尖每一個人都海島國家的特性狹隘這是很糟糕的事情我們再這樣走回頭路的話台灣是會退步的"},{"start":510.374,"end":514,"text":"在國外念法律系、念會計系你回來不要讓他考會計師、讓他考律師嗎"},{"start":517.984,"end":541.354,"text":"在美國本地人要申請醫學院也不太好申請那如果你是拿綠卡的那更不好申請那美國人自己申請醫學院醫學系4年加4年第二個4年如果申請不到他們就跑到加拿大去申請跑到美國的屬地譬如說波多黎各、格雷納達那邊他們有一些學校都在那邊設婚校"},{"start":542.282,"end":568.104,"text":"在那邊唸了再申請是你得到的話就一部分時間在美國一部分時間在那個屬地那這個還OK另外再來再申請不到他們就跑到歐洲去唸就所謂產生歐盟有一些藝學是有一些英文班啊什麼班那舊歐盟15個國家新歐盟10個國家他們都混在一起歐盟是混在一起"},{"start":568.803,"end":591.937,"text":"那我據我了解你在匈牙利念、你在西班牙念他們的最後一次的畢業考就是美國的醫師考試的Part 1那你這邊考過之後就是畢業了那你就可以直接到美國的醫院去實習他們是這樣所以是拿那個Part 1的考試來當作畢業考"},{"start":595.871,"end":623.635,"text":"非常好啊那台灣現在跑去那邊練的就跟人家一起讀嘛讀英文班嘛敢講到這樣汙名化、講到這樣很卑賤的言語就是霸凌、霸凌、霸凌就像我們現在在霸凌這樣齁我是覺得大可不必啦你要考試你就像剛剛你要一關一關考你要一關一關考我們都沒有意見但是他只要能考得過表示說他是qualify嘛你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":624.659,"end":653.095,"text":"我想這個每一個學校訓練的嚴謹度還有他這個實習的時間那麼過去的一些醫療的一個經驗等等都應該綜合評估然後讓每一個學校或者是每一個地區的水準我們大家都寥如指掌我覺得這樣子的話不是針對某一個特定的族群或者是群體他在制定的這個考試規則才會是適材適所而且是比較公平正義"},{"start":656.017,"end":683.73,"text":"因為我們台灣跟國際接軌所以我們一定要放開心胸我們用人家人才人家用我們的人才這是天經地義嘛所以我昨天看那個ASML他們說他們的好幾百個員工都是台灣過去的這是好事啊他們也會回來嘛所以不要那麼狹隘好那接著我再問你現在霸凌那麼嚴重"},{"start":686.269,"end":690.759,"text":"你們考試院那個保訓會啊,到底扮演什麼角色,你知道嗎?"},{"start":692.508,"end":715.909,"text":"依照公務人員保障法第19條我們當然是有這個責任因為公務人員的衛生跟安全的部分必須要制定相關的措施這個部分制定法律的部分是考試院的職責考試院這邊我相信未來會多聽取大家的意見"},{"start":716.831,"end":728.37,"text":"我們考試院有一個安全衛生的辦法是保訓會那行政院又搞一個員工資產霸凌防治流程這兩個有沒有打架"},{"start":729.991,"end":754.887,"text":"這個是各有各的一個行政體制因為這個部分的確委員點出一個很重要的一個觀點就是我們到底有沒有一個比較通盤性的全盤性這個比較整體性的一個看法例如說有些的這個防制霸凌它叫做作業的準則有些叫做要點那有的叫標準流程那你會認為行政院這一個"},{"start":759.799,"end":767.971,"text":"這個制度啊 不會關關相覆啦﹖或者是掩蓋事實啦﹖或者是施暗啦 您認為會不會"},{"start":770.358,"end":797.671,"text":"當然外界有疑慮所以我是說我們這個制度的建立必須要非常的嚴謹所以這個部分我是覺得我們應該要各方要一起來對話所以你如果有機會的話你們這個保訓會一定要好好的來加強功能不要讓人家看不到你們在扮演什麼角色再來我們考試院有一個國家文官學院"},{"start":798.972,"end":824.042,"text":"行政也有一個公務人力發展學院這兩個是在做什麼這兩個功能不太一樣在考試院的部分他比較強調是在出任文官升官等的升等比如說兼任升到檢任甚至是高階文官的培訓但是行政人事總署的這個機制他是比較從這個在職訓練所以兩個這個是不一樣的"},{"start":827.771,"end":847.204,"text":"所以現在建任的要升檢任的要上文官授訓是去文官授訓還是在行政院授訓應該是考試院如果沒了解錯誤的話所以那個那個那個行政院這一個是一個一個一個是什麼下令營再次訓練再次訓練"},{"start":850.018,"end":877.441,"text":"就等於夏令營的意思啦就是他現在已經有工作了然後再讓他培養他的一個所以你們考試院本身要硬起來啊你們這樣搞什麼啊我看你們都人家都把你全部要幹掉啦然後最後最嚴重就是你們說沒有考試委員期間你們考選部部長、全系部部長、保訓會主委三個人就可以開會緊急必要事項都自己搞一搞那這樣選你們考試委員幹嘛"},{"start":879.855,"end":903.853,"text":"我想這個是不得已的一個措施因為我們遲遲考試委員沒有上任所以依照這個相關的法律或者憲法授予的這個權利他都必須有一定的延期的行政程序所以如果沒有的話他是有所不足的所以沒有考試委員還沒產生之前這三個人就可以"},{"start":904.634,"end":933.005,"text":"那是在做一些緊急而必要的那你們將來如果成立之後要追認嗎?要追認,一樣一樣追認嗎?我想應該會的應該會啦因為啦,你們科技委員很重要你的重要是在哪裡?非你們不可,你們要秀出來啊不然我覺得,好像有也好沒也好我們會努力 會輸啊,對吧?你們要拿起來啊好,最後一個問題齁"},{"start":934.448,"end":959.278,"text":"你跟田丘警委員在第8屆的時候你們就是海洋委員會就是你們兩個推出來的嘛那我那現在的海巡署就是在海洋委員會下面嘛那我沒有推那個海巡署你把它當作第二海軍就當作第二海軍在噗嚨啊你看現在在海岸跟對岸的那個海警船"},{"start":961.239,"end":979.879,"text":"軍艦不敢出去嘛 不敢對幹都用海警船 都用我們的海巡署下去我們的小船去碰大船我是覺得他們很危險耶文彥兄你覺得怎麼樣警修 剛剛您的題目是好像是要提到將來警修的這個能不能組工櫃嘛"},{"start":980.97,"end":997.111,"text":"主工會以外就是他們的退休軍第二海軍嘛你就比照軍人嘛95%、90%、85%也可以啊不能把他們當作一般警察都都逗某鬧鬧的啊就出事啊呼吸一下我覺得這樣"},{"start":999.073,"end":1020.624,"text":"太粗魯了吧,你認為呢?這個是你跟田蕉錦催生出來的,我要看你的立場我想這個錦霄的工作非常的辛苦那海選署的工作當然也是不例外所以我也非常的諒解、體認就是海洋委員會所有工作同仁的辛苦"},{"start":1021.769,"end":1043.472,"text":"但是這個警消是不是要比照軍人有更好的待遇所以我們現在的機制已經比一般的公務人員他的待遇、他的退休、提早的年齡等等都有比較好的一個規劃所得替代力很差我覺得我們對公務人員你們這個保訓的"},{"start":1045.24,"end":1066.73,"text":"國務院的信賴保護原則希臘碰到經濟危機在財務再怎麼爛已經整個中央銀行都要配德國德意志銀行收編被人家接收了他們對於原來的退休人員他們還是承諾還是繼續堅持下去希臘有倒嗎沒有倒啊"},{"start":1067.521,"end":1083.581,"text":"有更差嗎 沒有啊 現在看起來越來越好啊所以這種政府跟人家簽約你要當念軍校也好 念警察也好 那個當初都是簽約的耶簽了之後就退後 你轉一天給他貸一天給他貸你認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":1088.666,"end":1110.785,"text":"我覺得從大方向當然我們對政府的財政也必須維持它的穩定但是不同的職業有不同的需求應該可以來討論所以我覺得這個部分我們會多聽取大家的意見來提出我們的看法最後一個問題剛剛你講的"},{"start":1114.209,"end":1118.506,"text":"營銷 消防人員也是很危險消防人員他們要組工會等等 你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":1120.479,"end":1143.186,"text":"主公會事實上每一個國家的制度不太一樣有些國家它的錦梟是可以主公會但是它有一定的限制有些是不能主公會因為這裡面涉及到罷工權的問題錦梟的職務其實它是公法的一個關係而且是對人民的生命財產是非常的重要"},{"start":1143.626,"end":1144.406,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":1163.977,"end":1182.154,"text":"希望能夠兼顧到我們錦霄的權益所以這個部分怎麼樣保障錦霄的權益讓他們有更好的一個生活環境、工作環境這才是真正的關鍵還有最後就是因公殉職跟因公死亡"},{"start":1183.204,"end":1203.269,"text":"這個常常很大的爭議所以你們考試委員、全席部一定要站在公務人員的立場不要處處刁難搞了好幾個案子全部都是很辛苦那這些委員一個比一個頭腦還硬"},{"start":1206.248,"end":1223.404,"text":"這個你如果有信應上去這一點要堅持好不好會的我們會感同身受的有共同力心的來繼續努力謝謝好謝謝蘇委員謝謝邱備提名人下一位請王美惠委員詢問"}]}},{"id":"157711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70633f1850f30499973e4bb3245ee31dfdd073576e907e000b6114b1ada5b04794185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"18:02:44 - 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比方說從建七職等然後去做九職等的工作你覺得這也是很正面的一個部分那包括有很多不同的內容可是這部分可能跟現在有一些年輕人的想法可能不太一樣因為你現在你叫他做七職等你去叫他做九職等的工作他可能會覺得你被剝削了"},{"start":113.079,"end":126.634,"text":"等等那因為你在你的那個報告當中你最後你也提到說你過去的經驗的時候事實上你是一個很雞婆能夠比較熱心能夠調和抵賴能夠把你的經驗去做引導後輩的一個這樣的一個"},{"start":127.415,"end":127.615,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":155.492,"end":173.787,"text":"公務員的曾經的工作經驗應該對未來會很有幫助的地方就是說我們要能夠充分的把剛才報告的七成同仁的激勵的部分能夠透過考機或獎程包括您剛剛提到的破格拔佐"},{"start":174.775,"end":193.069,"text":"年輕人也不見得他喜歡這樣子爬格子可是關鍵就是你有一個制度讓他表現那第二個考機能夠讓他一年的工作績效能夠得到該肯定的肯定該否定的否定為什麼因為還是有很多人在看該否定的沒有被否定"},{"start":194.119,"end":215.596,"text":"這就比較麻煩我想這個是我可以做這些方面來貢獻第二個部分我剛才前面也提到過就是說我認為當一個主管或當一個機關的首長他對同仁的照顧尤其跟大家報告的管教養慰他要有這樣的一個修煉有這樣的修養那這樣的話就能夠帶動同仁"},{"start":217.657,"end":236.413,"text":"所以我跟委員報告說我當年被破格拔卓從建十一直接跳建九的科長這是很難可是我們的責任也很大那時候我年輕但是就知道說同仁都在看笑話尤其是科長層級那我們就在這樣的進進業業那麼對同仁"},{"start":239.417,"end":268.283,"text":"我們要勇於負責我想這也是自己的一個要求那這些經驗將來如果有機會在考試院我想在這個相關的考機、獎程、升遷該有能夠主動積極不是像過去只是管人而是要看到他的真正功績要給他肯定我想這個是我願意來貢獻的地方未來若有機會的話是OK你認為現在公務體系當中最需要改革的問題是什麼然後您的具體改革方向是什麼"},{"start":270.236,"end":299.628,"text":"我一開始就跟各位報告就是說我認為考機法是很好來做修改可是我看到考試院提供了很多資料包括最近提的考機法的修正都中途停在那個地方最主要的就是說歸納就是錢獎金不得到大家的這樣的一個支持我想這個還是可以改善可是我的具體建議就是說該考他甲等的我們不要因為財政的限制"},{"start":300.989,"end":321.266,"text":"限制他75%大家覺得75%很多但是對一個機關他也是會有激進同仁全部全年奉獻努力的你也不要讓這樣的主管或首長有這樣線索可是他不應該考甲等的你給他95%就是現在大家的抱怨所以我覺得比如說"},{"start":322.347,"end":330.166,"text":"如果我們不要設限但是條例很清楚符合一二三四項你就該給他夾等不符合的一個都不給"},{"start":330.97,"end":357.772,"text":"第二個部分我認為檢陽報告就是同儕如果你給他自評同人之間如果互相評那再加上主管的賦評最後考機委員會這樣眾人的智慧他一定能夠減少大家的抱怨如果還有抱怨我們公報現在是公開的社會大家都會看這樣的主管做了這樣的考機他有沒有公平我想這應該是可以得到大家支持的修正是不是"},{"start":358.488,"end":378.287,"text":"你有特別提到說在整個通盤檢討中央及地方職務劣等這件事情當中的時候因為確實在中央跟地方機關的職務劣等差異導致地方的人才很容易流失也招募困難這件事情你覺得考試院應該要重視改善你覺得要如何改善你有沒有具體的一個方向要怎麼做"},{"start":379.979,"end":400.496,"text":"簡單講就是說大家提到了全盤的職務列等的檢討如果說要縮小範圍的話我個人倒是建議可以先從縣市跟直轄市其一來做比較這個其一就是說你不要說直轄市的這個層級高相同的職務他就低他一等兩等"},{"start":400.996,"end":428.039,"text":"就是說你只要看他做的工作看他做的職責甚至有些公務員還建議說你看我在偏鄉做的工作的數量不會比直轄市少這部分我們確實也拭目以待因為在地方確實也噴到人才其實很容易流失然後招募不易的問題然後另外就是有關於約聘僱人員長期在政府機關工作當中沒有辦法享受公務人員同等的福利你也提到這個部分要加以改善你覺得要如何去改善"},{"start":429.4,"end":434.64,"text":"因為聘僱最大的問題就是他不屬於公務員他也不是勞工"},{"start":435.595,"end":465.047,"text":"那他們自己就一直在問那我們屬於什麼呢意思就是說在整個人事行政法制裡面沒有針對約聘僱有一套完整的權利義務的保障我想這是我們應該將來有機會要極力來促成但是我以考試院提供的資料我的了解就是說他們已經完成了所謂契約人員人事條例而這個部分將來如果成功他可以把剛才講的約聘人員跟聘僱人員把他納在裡面"},{"start":465.747,"end":489.99,"text":"這樣的話對他整個從禁用、考核、報酬、起價甚至將來的退休給付、工商等等都能夠得到完整的一個權益照片這部分我們其實是有些期待的因為對於整個約聘僱人員確實在地方當中他們定位不明然後權責不明、保障不明所以這確實在地方的公務體系當中很普遍的一個問題所以我們也對於"},{"start":491.531,"end":506.785,"text":"新的考試委員當中是不是能夠取這個問題我們其實是有些期待的那我接下來我想特別問一個因為整個公務人員整個吸引力公務員的一個職缺吸引力不斷在下降我給你看一個數字考選部的資料統計公務員高普考人數從2013年的146209人減少到去年只剩下67339人10年內降幅高達53.89%"},{"start":519.035,"end":531.662,"text":"這麼嚴重的狀態當然有很多一個部分性力下降一定有它的原因那請問您覺得主要原因在什麼地方那您如何要來提升公務職位的競爭力讓更多優秀的人才能夠進入公務體系來"},{"start":532.847,"end":558.101,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說從正面看目前雖然降到七萬、六萬可是我們一年招的是一萬三所以在整個數值來講考試院也做過這樣的一個分析就是說他整個進來的這些學經歷還好就品質沒有變差可是就長程來講誠如委員剛才提的就是說怎麼樣去吸引年輕尤其年輕的公務人員願意進來"},{"start":560.123,"end":574.72,"text":"這個宣導價值觀很重要現在對年輕人來講除了講仇不能夠跟風險不能夠跟工作量來成正比之外他最大的困擾就是公務人員的體系現在做一百件好事只要一件"},{"start":575.481,"end":604.925,"text":"哇那媒體社會就批判那這樣的話對公務人員的成就感正面形象沒有那對年輕人對私人的市場他選材的多元化他的競爭對他的吸引力他怎麼會進到公家機關這是我覺得這個最大的一個隱憂當然就制度上如果我們能夠改善我們的興奉我們的這些值等值別的這些改善能夠有一些誘因能夠吸引優秀的人才進來這也是最好的"},{"start":605.265,"end":615.814,"text":"可是終究不比我們當年當年我們我跟各位委員報告過就是說我們是因為公教子弟受到這樣的一個觀念影響小時候讀書就是為了"},{"start":617.728,"end":643.255,"text":"不是報國打仗就是當公務人員要不然就是教書現在的小朋友沒有這樣的一個概念那怎麼去做宣導上面的改變所以現在考試院我看到他有這個國考的宣講總之團能夠深入校園甚至結合用人機關針對特定的系所特定的考試的類科來做這樣的一個選定標的來宣講我覺得這可能也會是一個有效果的一個方式"},{"start":644.816,"end":657.811,"text":"確實因為薪資待遇、升遷空間還有工作負擔其實三個最主要讓年輕人其實一直沒有走入公務員的三個主要的考量可是我們看到進入公務員的人數也許"},{"start":659.465,"end":673.289,"text":"後來考人數越來越低可是我們也看到離職率不斷的增高我們看到考試院報告2022年公務人員的離職人數達到13500人次比前一年的10990人次增加22.8%一年增加22.8%的離職人次"},{"start":681.352,"end":694.066,"text":"顯示公務體系面臨日益嚴峻的人才流失的狀態針對這樣子離職率上升的問題你認為主要的原因在哪邊如何通過政策的調整能夠有效來降低離職率"},{"start":696.908,"end":714,"text":"這個在之前我也聽過像副院長被提名的人提到就是說除了考試招募人才困難之外你招募進來的人才能夠留住也是非常困難我想這是一個真正的關鍵那麼現在人才因為剛才外面的吸引力很大"},{"start":714.64,"end":738.562,"text":"我們內部如果沒有這樣管理上的一個激勵措施或者向心力的一個培養你要把他留住來尤其對優秀的人才跟外面競逐他一定會跑掉所以我剛才特別報告就是說如果將來有機會我們應該要加強機關的首長或單位的主管在這個領導管理上的一個磨練就是說你要給他有這樣的一個要求"},{"start":738.973,"end":750.051,"text":"而不是只有給他有打考機的權利你打考機完了以後是對同仁向心力團結一個責任這樣的話對人才的留任可能會更有幫助"},{"start":751.153,"end":777.388,"text":"確實是如此因為我覺得怎麼樣提升公務人員的一個在職率的問題確實是一個問題最近勞動部發生的一個職場霸凌的一個案件那我覺得就是一個很明顯的一個狀態其實在目前基層能力配置非常的不足很多單位只有7個人因為負擔12個人的工作量那面對這樣的一個情況你如何你認為要怎麼樣透過更好的一個人力編織跟預算規劃來解決人力短缺的一個問題"},{"start":779.595,"end":793.039,"text":"機關原額一直是政府的一個包袱政府一直強調就是說人事的費用越來越多但是我個人將來若有機會的話我會提供一些意見就是說我們機關的業務"},{"start":795.305,"end":821.542,"text":"也不斷地在成長除非你能夠簡化那如果說我們的機關總額編制總額不能夠突破你怎麼可以要求我們服務的品質提升我想這是一個非常必要要面對的問題所以我想就是說公務機構在這樣的一個狀況你不能夠要馬而好又要馬而不吃草所以這是為什麼說在窮責變的過程各位可以看得到約聘僱的人員不會少"},{"start":822.401,"end":837.027,"text":"他就是希望在這些方面彈性運用那如果是這種情形他的待遇福利又不能夠完全改善的時候這也是我們政府機構包括考試院、人事行政總署我覺得應該要正面面對要不然未來怎麼去跟私人企業來競逐人才"},{"start":838.255,"end":855.648,"text":"因為你剛剛在回答當中你不斷提到跟私人企業的一個職場競爭的一個問題因為你上任工作的時候你是在副班擔任讀董我覺得是一個很特殊而且一個很重要的一個位置那我想特別請教一下針對公務體系跟民間競爭力的落差在職務"},{"start":857.129,"end":871.351,"text":"競爭力落差當中 薪資是一個很重要的考量點您是否支持全面檢討公務員的薪酬結構是否考慮引入彈性工時然後績效獎金等民間的管理模式來提升公務體系的競爭力跟吸引力"},{"start":873.367,"end":892.409,"text":"如果有機會的話我倒是建議這是不得不面對的一個時事的一個趨勢現在不是Z世代的觀念改變時代跟社會都在變那如果說我們公務人員我們的公部門體系還是不能夠跟私部門來做人才競爭的策略思考的話"},{"start":893.01,"end":907.902,"text":"他這個一定是僵化在這個地方所以我們談到就是說現在跟市部門沒有辦法去競爭他已經有彈性他能夠用薪酬來吸引我們公部門還僵化在這些人士報酬升遷獎勵的這樣一個制度這是"},{"start":908.522,"end":908.923,"text":"請問你這邊是不是支持"},{"start":925.942,"end":951.759,"text":"公務人員組成公會或者是錦銷組織公會的相關問題那你之前曾經表示說公務人員跟勞工的身份屬性本質不同那目前的法律不是用公會法本席理解這個狀態那我想說你在指的狀態公會法當中的時候應該指到各級機關跟公立學校公務人員的結社組織其他依其他法律規定"},{"start":952.86,"end":967.773,"text":"所以說我在這邊也特別把那個依照公會法的跟公務人員的相關的協會組成協會的方式做了一個小小的一個比較那在當中的時候因為公會的時候還很清楚保障勞工的結社權、協商權還有一個罷工權、團結議價的一個權利"},{"start":972.897,"end":1001.276,"text":"那公務員這邊的時候呢組織公會當中的時候呢行使爭議權也就是罷工權這個部分您可不可以更具體回應因為你在書面回應的資料當中的時候你提到你是採取一個比較開放的一個觀點可是你提到說目前的關鍵是權益妥善照顧而不是讓他們組成公會針對這個說法你是不是可以更詳細的一個做一個說明"},{"start":1002.264,"end":1008.29,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我的觀察包括錦霄同仁他要的是權力"},{"start":1009.603,"end":1035.924,"text":"權益的照顧這也是我們一再強調國家對公務人員負了基本照顧的責任要不然我們怎麼說他是公法上的職務關係但是公法上的職務關係他在定義他在行使的方式又完全不明那你怎麼去保障公務人員的權益所以我認為我們現在如果說不能夠突破公會法因為公會法你要改變的時候我們團體協商法相關的救濟等等都要改變"},{"start":1036.684,"end":1060.788,"text":"那這個時候所以公務體系現在尋的就是說公務人員協會法來爭取他的團結權爭取他的協商權那如果說有責任他要克責甚至等等那但是這些東西如果你不能夠滿足公務人員的權益保障那這個東西你就必須要做檢討也就是說我認為你不能夠不讓他組織公會可是你又不做他的權益照顧"},{"start":1061.408,"end":1081.657,"text":"我覺得這是政府有失責的地方這也是我一直認為從公務體系出身應該在這些方面要有正確的表達就是說國家有國家的責任主管有主管的責任你不能夠不盡責任而要求我們整個文官體系公務人員不能夠組公會不能夠爭取自己的權益這是我主要的一個看法你認為公務人員組織"},{"start":1085.018,"end":1113.824,"text":"工會你覺得你是朝向一個正面的角度在看待過程當中你覺得政府應該要去妥善的給他們權益的一個保護這是一個過程可是讓公務員組成工會你覺得是應該的我可以這麼理解你的意思嗎我跟委員報告可以開放討論就是說我們原來限制擔憂的因素比如說國家安全公共服務他不能夠不持續來做這些方面的服務只要在不影響這些部分你有限制的他是可以做"},{"start":1114.104,"end":1115.305,"text":"公務員的勞動條件有不合理的規定"},{"start":1137.206,"end":1160.962,"text":"關聯性在齁那所以說我在這邊我也想特別問一下就是你說公務人員跟勞工的身份屬性不同不是用公會法嗎如果未來立法院通過了組織相關一個法律修正案你是不是也支持就公務員組織成公會就你剛剛提到這個部分如果可以開放討論然後立法院也通過了修法你就基本上你就支持我可以這麼理解你的意思嗎"},{"start":1162.512,"end":1189.968,"text":"這個問題在就是說剛才跟委員報告公法上的職務關係他的定義要清楚如果這個部分不能夠清楚他的身份屬性就不會是勞工的關係不會是勞工的關係你要去適用公會法他就是沒有辦法所以我講就是說在這些方面如果在這部分系統上不能夠突破所以我剛才跟委員報告我個人倒是建議就是說國家先組成權益照顧委員會來檢視公務人員的基本權益"},{"start":1190.869,"end":1207.665,"text":"這些做到了以後我們再來做其他方面的改變當然如果法令制度上能夠突破我個人也是會來吸納大家的看法因為你針對這個部分我覺得你公法上的職務關係因為特別權力關係是另外考量的一點"},{"start":1208.726,"end":1234.113,"text":"那我在說你在資料當中你有說到你如果通過審議順利擔任考試委員的時候你會建議提出哪些具體的那個法令的修正來達到你說建立更明確的一個法律規定好 謝謝鄭委員 謝謝鄧備提名人"},{"start":1238.694,"end":1242.611,"text":"全院委員會對考試委員被提名"}]}},{"id":"16327","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16327","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e0d48a73477a267516652d32afb0bdb62b104c5adbfed68f76c478c99aa30c4235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-29T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、財政委員會報告併案審查國民黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」、委員賴瑞隆等16人及委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-29T14:00:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T15:45:00+08:00","duration":6287,"影片長度":"01:44:47","委員發言時間":"14:00:13 - 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Tahovecahe等17人擬具《財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案》、委員賴瑞隆等16人及委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具《財政收支劃分法"},{"start":1864.065,"end":1867.227,"text":"我們先介紹在場的委員跟官員,我們在場有李坤城委員、沈伯洋委員、曾振淺委員、"},{"start":1892.02,"end":1909.071,"text":"財政部莊翠雲部長財政部法制處姚雲處長國庫署陳柏成署長行政院主計總處陳淑芝主計長行政院主計總處公務預算處徐永毅處長國家發展委員會經濟發展處郭永騰專委援助民主委員會"},{"start":1921.462,"end":1932.892,"text":"杜章梅莊副主委、原住民委員會主計室柯淑琳主任、原委會綜合規劃處紅林副處長、農業部會計處蘇芳玉專委、農業部資源永續利用司林永元科長、農民輔導師王東良前任記政、"},{"start":1950.779,"end":1954.771,"text":"農村發展基地稅圖保持署李家純政工程師"},{"start":1962.255,"end":1981.582,"text":"內政部國土管理署的朱偉庭檢任視察經濟部產業發展署的周以馨副署長產發署的環境部大氣環境師的陳宜嘉專委防務部的林峰文參事"},{"start":1999.171,"end":2017.518,"text":"黃珊珊委員有提出財政收支方法第八條的修正動議有發到各位桌上請大家參與我們請各提案委員、黨代表、政府官員、財政部莊部長分別就"},{"start":2027.438,"end":2052.316,"text":"本次協商主題財政收支方法部分條文修正案表達意見,黨團代表有提案的有,我知道,民眾黨我介紹的,有伍麗華委員因為沒有到,然後賴瑞隆沒有到,蔡易餘也沒有到,國民黨團政前委員還是民眾黨,"},{"start":2053.891,"end":2054.051,"text":"主席"},{"start":2059.677,"end":2062.898,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":2085.464,"end":2105.155,"text":"在這一個月的冬期我們很期待看到行政院的版本當然也希望看到國民黨接下來要修正的版本但不到今天為止我還沒有看到相關的版本大家就只看到正前的這一份那主要還是一樣我還是要對行政院還有財政部拜託在這段時間裡面"},{"start":2106.696,"end":2121.102,"text":"大家對於《財化法》都可以公開理性的討論但是真的不要再抹黑跟造謠尤其是最近我們拿到了世界的經典賽的棒球冠軍但是現在竟然出現相關的論點是說"},{"start":2123.206,"end":2150.634,"text":"只要財化法修正國光獎金會減半這是一個非常嚴重的指控我覺得這個東西財化法是國家大政跟個別或個別的所謂的補助並不是直接相關但現在包括主基礎也好財政部也好對於財化法的修正不好好的提出版本只是一再的用可能會影響誰的經費誰的補助來做跟人民製造人民"},{"start":2151.654,"end":2173.591,"text":"對這件事情的誤解另外就是製造政黨的對立我覺得這兩件事情都不是我們今天要修裁判法的主要目的裁判法主要目的就是很清楚的是在不影響中央政府的運作下臺灣民眾黨的版本非常清楚我們大概是2000多億到3000億那內容裡面就把所有的垂直分配的標準講得非常的清楚"},{"start":2174.492,"end":2196.879,"text":"但,水平分配,既然財政部說它現在的版本就是最好的版本,我們也希望財政部把它最好的版本,水平分配的方式、指標,跟相關的所有的他們的比例跟公式都提出來,大家可以公開的討論,而不是一味的不提出就算了,然後還製造新的衝突。那第二個部分就是有關"},{"start":2200.682,"end":2216.656,"text":"內容裏面這麼多的版本就表示大家對於這些內容都非常非常的在意有希望垂直分配的部分財政部我們一再的跟主席說如果你認為影響到你的哪一些你告訴我影響到哪一些"},{"start":2217.878,"end":2237.616,"text":"你釋出了三千億,你會優先刪減哪一些?你釋出了三千億,你會優先砍掉地方補助可能哪一些?這些話,財政部、組織處都不說,就說國光獎金會減半,就說健保、勞保會補貼會減半,甚至我在想說,那我們是不是大家的薪水都會減半?"},{"start":2238.817,"end":2267.424,"text":"什麼都不講現在的狀況就是財政部跟行政院在這麼長的一段時間立法院已經給了你們很多的時間我們希望他們提出他們的說法如果釋出兩千億是可以的那也請你說出來釋出一千億也可以的你也可以說出來可是他一個都不說那現在國民黨的版本修正版我們到現在還沒有看到我們希望國民黨的內容從媒體的報導裡面我們也請財政部算出來了"},{"start":2268.004,"end":2270.206,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":2284.275,"end":2287.698,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2306.995,"end":2324.491,"text":"虽然县市政府都有表示在增加垂直分配之后其实水平分配他绝对不会比现在少的情况下其实县市政府他目前为止也都可以能够安然的接受我觉得这个部分才是现在是我们修财化法最好的时机25年没有修正中央"},{"start":2325.311,"end":2326.672,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":2349.787,"end":2351.387,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。財政收支劃分法第十六條"},{"start":2372.712,"end":2398.546,"text":"財政部能夠保留一些彈性所以在水平分類的方式我們希望能夠讓大家共同來參與跟討論而不是像現在的狀況就是財政部說了算你看我我看你可憐都給你多一點或者是你比較聽話我就給你多一點這個都不是一個健康的財政狀況所以台灣民眾黨希望能夠盡速的在院長協商或在院會表決前能夠看到財政部的版本當然我們希望盡快的看到國民黨的版本謝謝"},{"start":2400.083,"end":2404.478,"text":"好,謝謝黃珊珊委員。那接著我們請這個陳錄莊部長,您表示一下意見。"},{"start":2407.804,"end":2434.158,"text":"謝謝主席以及我們黃委員的指教我想財化法這個修正的事情大家都非常的關注那我首先要說明的就是說第一個財政部非常對於我們各個黨團以及各個委員的一些建議我們都非常重視因此財政部也招第一個我們先收集了各地方政府的意見然後我們也召開了相關的會議也就是剛剛委員所提的就是水平分配裡面的指標"},{"start":2435.479,"end":2450.432,"text":"我們知道各個地方政府都非常都會非常熱心而且提出了八十幾項的指標那我們把它規整這裡面非常重要一個就是基本建設需求以及財政的努力八十幾項指標經過財政部經過兩次的會議長時間的一些討論以後我們都凝聚起來了那目前有三個指標還有爭議也就是污染防治嘛還有節能節能的部分還有一個是"},{"start":2463.646,"end":2465.486,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條"},{"start":2491.772,"end":2508.051,"text":"建築用地、可以蓋大房子的、跟做國土保育的、跟做農業的、跟養殖的、照林的,他們能夠產生的產值以及介位人口也不同,都需要進一步的一個討論。所以財政部其實非常努力在這個部分做這個跟各地方政府在溝通。"},{"start":2508.832,"end":2522.868,"text":"這是有關指標水平分配的指標的部分其實我們一直在進行第二個立法院也開過兩次公聽會公聽會裡面許多的專家學者都提出了才化法很重要但是才化法裡面更重要一個就是說"},{"start":2525.45,"end":2546.879,"text":"財、權這兩個要相配合也就是說中央跟地方怎麼樣去分配就涉及到事權的劃分事權劃分清楚以後才有考慮到支出因為你要做事必須要錢那支出怎麼劃分支出劃分以後才有所謂收入的劃分但是我們還沒有進入到這個後面的一個討論所以直接就把"},{"start":2547.239,"end":2548.541,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":2567.503,"end":2574.604,"text":"其中一條文修正草案案中,其中一條文修正草案案中,其中一條文修正草案案中,其中一條文修正草案案中,其中一條文修正草案案中,其中一條文修正草案案中,其中一條文修正草案案中,其中一條文修正草案"},{"start":2595.788,"end":2596.969,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":2622.219,"end":2626.14,"text":"以目前來說的預算案114年的預算案來看可以到4740億加上一般性補助款以及計劃型補助款可以到1兆零151億所以中央對地方的財政的挹注是一直在擴大的"},{"start":2648.345,"end":2654.108,"text":"此外,地方財政的情況也大幅改善,從101年地方短處589億元,到104年余處117億元,到112年余處648億元,所以地方財政也在改善。我想這個部分是中央對地方一直以恨。"},{"start":2671.957,"end":2674.318,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":2699.082,"end":2701.866,"text":"謝謝莊部長我們國民黨團的部分請賴世寶委員說明一下簡單提案說明我們等一下再進入每一條再討論"},{"start":2711.839,"end":2731.278,"text":"謝謝主席,各位先進,很高興大家能夠坐下來,我們理性得好的討論財法吧。那麼25年來沒有修啊,剛才部長講說是夥伴關係啊,這個話講得非常好啊,可事實上是夥伴關係嗎?不是啊,是上下關係嗎?"},{"start":2734.119,"end":2758.185,"text":"現在來講為什麼每一個縣市都希望能夠修財務法包括賴清廷總統沒有當總統之前他也要修啊黃偉哲想修陳其邁想修大家都想修就是希望能夠大家的自主的財源多一點現在財政部不管你怎麼講說我對這個地方政府多好多好那個都施捨式的嘛"},{"start":2761.187,"end":2772.176,"text":"我們現在就是希望能夠有一定的公式回到25年前中央地方6比4現在是75對25那這裡面來講不需要來扣帽子就是把15%的決定錢交給地方"},{"start":2781.718,"end":2810.074,"text":"我先講一下這個現在財政部不斷地用一個絲絲毫微的理由來反對財政部提版本老實講我們上個會期結束之前我們都已經有決議嘛財委已經通過了說財政部今年開議之前要提出版本後來沒有提啊沒有提的理由就是現在剛剛講的說這個個性是水平分配啊沒有弄好啊這個那個這個那個等等的"},{"start":2811.414,"end":2819.87,"text":"我的版本跟剛才黃珊珊委員講的很像啊我的版本就是中央給地方3000億左右"},{"start":2820.956,"end":2849.405,"text":"怎麼分你們要按原來公式分啊都不要改變都不要改變都不需要什麼的就都不要改變但是就這個錢就是主動給地方按照法律定下來就是給地方3000億左右這是我的版本可是你按我的版本沒有被送進來啊被送進來只有四個版本民進黨三個版本伍麗華、蔡易餘還有賴瑞隆三個版本加上國民黨的一個版本"},{"start":2850.485,"end":2874.702,"text":"其他的我們現在是民眾黨有個版本我的版本很清爽啊就只有把中央的3000億左右放給地方而且你看到很多學者也都支持這樣的一個看法那財政部不斷講說有公司可以分配公司分配都給你們分配吧你們這麼愛分配就給你們分配就大家這個有個性是"},{"start":2875.402,"end":2884.312,"text":"也不必去炒,因為怎麼炒,如果一定要到水平分配,大家都統統搞定了才決定的話,那這個無解。"},{"start":2886.742,"end":2911.157,"text":"這個無解啦,這個最後無解啦,因為每一個縣市他有一定的想法,哎呀我土地這個權重多一點,我這個人口權重多一點等等的,我的財政努力,比如說台北市這個新竹市,這方面財政努力很多啊,營業稅你要不要有一定的一個確保,這些都是大家來討論,很多地方來討論了,所以我們覺得,"},{"start":2913.279,"end":2914.621,"text":"我個人的主張是水平分配就財政部來決定。"},{"start":2929.821,"end":2934.103,"text":"財政部這麼愛決定才不決定嘛,所以這樣來講的話也都沒有太大的一個疙瘩,沒有太大的一個憾格。所以最後一個我要強調的,這個部長剛剛講的,權跟錢要放在一起,可以啊,你把地方,你多給地方三千億人,你就規定什麼事情給地方做,沒問題啊。"},{"start":2953.049,"end":2976.14,"text":"沒有問題啊!錢本來就跟錢要放在一起的啊!你分出去,我三千億分出去了,那你就告訴我們什麼事情就是地方政府在做,地方政府扛下來啊!當然扛下來,沒有問題啊!這個事情是money talk,講錢的事情喔!這是非常務實,不需要把它政治化啦!不需要說啊這樣挖了以後,我滅這個錢、滅那個錢,不會的啦!各位!"},{"start":2981.212,"end":3005.444,"text":"回到六四中央還是多啦還是六十趴啦我們只是這麼可憐的我們很低聲的希望有百分之十五先法定就布給地方而不是靠中央的施捨目前是靠中央的施捨了把地方政府當乞丐一樣啊我高興的多給你一點你說你有公事"},{"start":3007.024,"end":3033.041,"text":"結果的結果就來看結果嘛這八年來的結果六獨來講第一名的台南市啊第二名的高雄市啊最後一名的台北市啊你們分的結果就這樣子啊分的結果就是這樣啊六獨來講就是這樣啊數字會說話啊各位數字會說話啊怎麼樣第一名就台南市啊第二名就高雄市啊就是完全是在也是在分嘛那我們是說你現在就"},{"start":3036.567,"end":3039.229,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":3052.576,"end":3056.8,"text":"對,啊,這裡面原來有什麼礦區稅的問題啊,原來保護農地的問題等等的,每一個人都可以講,如果都堅持那一點,那再修20年修不完,所以我是覺得這次就看大家怎麼樣了,我們是希望大家能夠平心靜氣的。"},{"start":3072.492,"end":3099.142,"text":"好好的看待這一部的《財化法》,25年來沒有修,大家都在功逢其死在創歷史了,如果能夠修過,大家真的也都是在工勞部都可以記一筆啦,不需要說一定不可以修,也不見得說一定就一定的民進黨永遠執政嘛,萬一下一次阿里奧巴換我們執政勒?"},{"start":3100.643,"end":3120.943,"text":"荒門之爭,你要不要修?你還不是要想修?所以我就覺得一勞永逸,就回到25年前,中央地方6比4,中央的餅還是比較大啦,地方的餅小40%,這麼多人要分,那你說權跟錢要放一起,可以!什麼事情交給地方做,你講啊,大家來做就是了嘛。"},{"start":3124.026,"end":3135.697,"text":"這是我的簡單的報告,因為我本來有提案,但是沒有送出委員會,我還是希望我的本門不送進來。就是隨時分配,隨時分配,以後財政不決定。"},{"start":3147.54,"end":3158.882,"text":"不是,他代表國民黨團,代表國民黨團,剛剛黃山代表民進黨團,然後財政部代表政府說,那這個,我們財政部長跟主調我們就坐下來,坐過來這邊,各位就坐過來這裡,主調在頭。那個,那個先讓我們回應嘛,還沒主調先讓我們回應一下嘛,他講的不是主調啊。沒有,我,我是代表國民黨團的,我蓋普頓,我們代表各領,代表各領。"},{"start":3176.721,"end":3179.923,"text":"我們也是另一種回應好不好"},{"start":3189.495,"end":3214.572,"text":"先讓我回應嘛對不對因為這個協商齁是有提案的人才有說明因為你們剛剛是提案說明這是委員會的協商每個人都有發言有有有等一下就有先讓我講一下嘛沒有沒有等一下按照這個程序來按照什麼程序啊啊那個內政部齁我看因為內政部剛剛有提案內政部民政司長也有來嘛是不是做前面一段那個提案我們有意見的我們不能回應喔不是啦還沒有開始到那個階段沒有啊那大體說明我們是大體回應的不行喔"},{"start":3214.952,"end":3235.558,"text":"不是,他是提案說明。提案說明,他們大體說明,我們大體回應也不行。財政部的回應。協商他有一個流程,我都知道,一定會有流程,你還有很多流程,不用擔心,你一定有說的機會。這個第三條的部分是這個吳立法委員的提案,大家有沒有什麼意見?第三條。來。你們看一下。"},{"start":3236.859,"end":3241.023,"text":"吳立法主要是針對嚴肅民的案件。吳立法主要是針對嚴肅民的案件。吳立法主要是針對嚴肅民的案件。"},{"start":3261.121,"end":3285.442,"text":"只是想要,我大概講一下,他是說針對這個山地,這個區,要退回給他一個地位。好啦好啦,你就讓我們講一下嘛,你說我有時間講,你就讓我講了嘛,好不好。我覺得剛剛那個賴斯堡委員一直在強調所謂新品契合,其實這部案子確實要新品契合,他強調幾點,一個新品契合,一個呢,所謂的這一個齁,年度久遠,是該修的這種說法,第三個他提到的所謂的比例的問題齁,重點我要濃縮起來大概這三個,"},{"start":3287.762,"end":3298.526,"text":"第一個其實老師說我們有沒有心平氣和當然要心平氣和但是詳情通過其實不是我們然後他也特別強調是說錢與權要一併討論這個就是為什麼我們會討論那麼久的原因從上個會期到現在這個會期會討論那麼久的原因關鍵的原因就在這邊我們一直很心平氣和在談結果詳情通過的是誰"},{"start":3311.035,"end":3327.592,"text":"早上六點強制動員到委員會當中連講話都不能講話之後靠近講台就被暴力相向那張志倫的啊馬上扭我脖子那黃國昌啊黃珊珊你要替我主持公正義一下他在旁邊都直播不下來討論就說什麼我打人"},{"start":3328.473,"end":3329.014,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條"},{"start":3344.87,"end":3363.16,"text":"前女權要講清楚對當初前女權的時候就權就是地方制度法嘛所以地方制度法在講的時候主席尊重一下我發言權地方制度法就前女權地方制度法的權怎麼可能在裁判法以後可以解決當然是另一部法令的權就屬於地方政府嘛"},{"start":3363.86,"end":3384.046,"text":"中央政府跟地方分權然後財政收支方法是分錢概念上是如此當初就說這個財法法跟地方自治法一併思考的原因在這邊好現在你強行通過送到這邊說馬上要進入逐條討論然後現在錢跟權要一起談這開什麼玩笑嘛你為什麼不回到前面之前來好好談呢"},{"start":3385.126,"end":3411.619,"text":"對不對?賴斯堡委員在財政委員會是內行人啊內行人不要講那種外行話對不對?那他一直在講說比例的問題那你怎麼不講絕對金額的問題呢?絕對金額差多少?絕對金額你拿掉6612億對不對?這內容來說就是國光獎金也會被減半的原因就在這邊嘛啊如果說帶風向所有中央政府沒有錢的話你怎麼辦?你當然是要切啊就減半是剛剛好而已啊"},{"start":3412.819,"end":3430.225,"text":"所以這種情況底下你要看絕對競爭從決定競爭來看到去年為止啊地方政府的剩餘款才高達600多億沒有辦法執行完成就600多億你們都還剩下600多億沒有辦法執行完成你又給地方政府6612億給他10倍double那你要這樣怎麼執行執行不只是錢還有權還有什麼還有人你沒有權沒有人你怎麼執行這個錢"},{"start":3440.202,"end":3461.174,"text":"一個52億的連槍線,你又給他多了100多億,讓他double,他怎麼執行?他怎麼執行?所以我跟你講,國民黨這部法案,真是禍國殃民,真是禍國殃民。剛剛賴斯堡委員說,大家都有功勞,我才不跟你同樣有罪咧,什麼功勞,這大家都一起有罪。"},{"start":3463.875,"end":3470.299,"text":"為什麼禍國讓他說我們執政的時候他不要改我跟你講到時候搞不好是你們執政的時候你們才想要改中央怎麼去讓"},{"start":3471.653,"end":3492.245,"text":"根本沒有辦法run你現在找的不是執政黨的麻煩你找的是國家的麻煩找的是人民的麻煩啦我講白點是這樣子嘛然後一部法案隨便通過大比議會然後661121就要拿到給地方去而毫無計劃毫無權力沒有人可以執行的情況底下你就要硬要通過好再說剛剛他講一個年份的問題"},{"start":3495.526,"end":3512.995,"text":"說財政收支劃分法二十五年沒有修改我就請告那位賴斯堡委員啊你知道財政收支劃分法一開始的歷史的法源是什麼時候他歷史的法源是在1954年他第一次大動這個法的時候是什麼時候是1981年相隔幾年27年"},{"start":3519.676,"end":3538.471,"text":"到了1981年之後到什麼時候一直到1999年是因為動省的關係體制不得不然政治所造成的結果你才要去進行修法又相隔了18年之久那1999年到現在為什麼相隔那麼久中間一直想要大家修老師講啊"},{"start":3540.502,"end":3553.734,"text":"馬英九政府也想要修,為什麼修不成?蔡英文政府也想要修,為什麼修不成?不是那麼容易修嘛!不是那麼容易修,不是大家不願意修,不是那麼容易修,所以要花多一點時間來做溝通。這不是怠惰的問題,這是共識不容易解決的問題。我再一次強調,不是國民黨比較聰明,是國民黨比較粗魯。"},{"start":3564.964,"end":3585.219,"text":"國民黨比較粗暴才硬要把這個版本來送到這個委員會要把他送出去否則的話根本不應該如此草率的修法財政收支...欸奇怪啊剛剛他說了沒有時間限制為什麼講了就有時間限制呢?我說三到五分鐘我每一回都有說三到五分鐘他講了不止三到五分鐘啊很奇怪你已經講不止了我講不止了你剛剛有計時嗎?我先幫你做一個那個...有計時啊"},{"start":3588.081,"end":3588.201,"text":"國務委員 國務委員"},{"start":3613.977,"end":3615.378,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3636.511,"end":3643.394,"text":"那法案本來就是討論溝通不同的意見,為什麼不同意見你就沒有辦法接受呢?那有這種道理嗎?你不知道嗎?你今天來開會不知道這件事嗎?上一次找他們來你就給他辦公了,讓他們就再回去啊,有強行的通過啊。"},{"start":3654.6,"end":3658.862,"text":"再往前一次我們就做結論說請你們要送東西過來因為我們貴營一直在強調財化法是如此出發動靠的工程不是隨便一大筆一揮就要通過我再說國民黨版本當中還不一樣國民黨的版本還不同"},{"start":3672.348,"end":3687.227,"text":"國民黨一下子精順條文要拿掉,剛剛賴氏堡委員說他就相繼於黃國昌的版本,所以說你的版本內容完全不同嘛,你急於想要修法,好算要修法才會造成今天這個結果嘛,大家有意見我會沒有意見。"},{"start":3690.791,"end":3692.772,"text":"我先問一下市長我為什麼不跟你講"},{"start":3706.076,"end":3706.296,"text":"媒體媒體媒體"},{"start":3736.177,"end":3737.259,"text":"主席、副主席、副主席"},{"start":3742.153,"end":3744.355,"text":"提出版本啊!我可以一次合成就不行!市長我們這樣是!黃珊珊的版本還沒有啊!我還沒有講話!"},{"start":3770.433,"end":3796.693,"text":"山上委員我們讓那個崑禎先講為什麼不能講?讓李崑禎委員先講我就一直講李崑禎委員嗎?剛剛你一直講我剛剛一直講他一直在插嘴啊我剛剛一直講他一直在插嘴啊你已經講了七、八分之八我剛剛講了很多久就是因為你一直插嘴我說又講又久事情都是你造成的喔好你都要怪罪我也可以沒關係主持如果不是主持你就換人做嘛好不好請你尊重我我尊重我嗎?你尊重我嗎?我剛剛講話的時候你有尊重我嗎?我先問一下內政部啦我們不是在開TV兩個人拿著麥克風在搶麥啊那個內政部"},{"start":3798.775,"end":3809.743,"text":"我們上次開會決議說內政部要送相關的資料你們都沒有送來上次你不要曾經通過內政部就可以講就不用來這邊講了啦有決議你們沒有送我們要回去看一下你們不能這麼懈怠齁陳毓正陳毓正你不要這麼懈怠上次上次就應該要講了上次你們應該要講你怎麼用這個文件來講換你出任委尊重主席了啦我尊重主席主席從來沒有尊重我啦準時我跟他講話之前都一直插嘴他把這個時間佔掉了我要告訴你他什麼叫尊重"},{"start":3827.996,"end":3836.398,"text":"對不起,沒有這樣講,啊我就等那麼久嗎?而且黃山委員也要講,我還沒講對不對?那你要讓李坤成說嗎?王委員,順序他沒有排,他沒有排說誰先講、誰後講、第二個、第三,他都沒有講。他已經讓李坤成說啦。對不對?那你也讓我講啊。你要讓李坤成、黃山山啊。"},{"start":3849.542,"end":3868.098,"text":"我已經被你干擾到不能講了啦!啊你講十分鐘了啦!要怎麼樣呢?我已經開始被你幹擾了!我就是要跟你主席講說你要尊重其他的委員的基本的發言權!哪有大的政治家要去講十分鐘了啦!哪有大的政治家可以啦!讓人家講啦!哪有這種方式!哪有這種方式!哪有這種方式!哪有這種方式!哪有這種方式!哪有這種方式!哪有這種方式!"},{"start":3870.98,"end":3874.703,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等16人及委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3901.88,"end":3904.861,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等16人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3926.089,"end":3926.209,"text":"主席"},{"start":3955.251,"end":3958.233,"text":"國民黨的提案是三組啦!這還算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算討論嗎?這算"},{"start":3983.905,"end":3984.065,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4009.318,"end":4011.599,"text":"主席,您是在炒納嗎?主席,您是在炒納嗎?主席,您在炒納嗎?"},{"start":4025.988,"end":4050.213,"text":"國民黨版本亂搞吧!搞錯修法吧!到現在為止,國民黨他們已經送出來,居然還有不同意見,你不覺得這很荒謬嗎?你們不自我檢討一下有這種法案嗎?那李昆城可以發言了嗎?第四條呢?他講完我就講了啦,他講完我就講了啦。好,歡迎李昆城來請發要,三分鐘喔,謝謝。三分鐘,三分鐘喔,啊夏俊煌三分鐘而已喔。三分鐘啊,這不短啊。可以,第二次、第三次發言嗎?"},{"start":4055.35,"end":4080.082,"text":"好了,不要再打斷我了,我已經,我已經,我已經,我已經想了要怎麼講了,我一直都斷我了,我已經忘了要怎麼講了啦。你第四條,你第四條可以講喔。就是說為什麼我們今天會有這個朝野協商,就是當初你就是三分鐘就送出去了嘛,你三分鐘送出去了。你們在那之前禮拜五我們,我幫你先講。那在之前,之前我們都是只有程序發言好不好,根本就沒有進入實施討論。"},{"start":4080.882,"end":4081.743,"text":"今天是做協商"},{"start":4105.54,"end":4113.505,"text":"中央總預算三兆一千多億按照國民黨版本挖走了6612億計劃型補助2411億挖走了這麼多"},{"start":4120.169,"end":4137.105,"text":"你說中央政府剩多少?中央政府剩下四千多億可以用而已,四千一百多億可以用而已。所以說昨天不管是我或是說郭國文委員再問這個主席長,就是說那如果國民黨的版本通過之後,那這個中央的補助該怎麼辦?是不是會減少?"},{"start":4138.706,"end":4161.361,"text":"主界長說:「對呀,會減少,減少一半。」我昨天是舉例說,體育預算,經費大概有40億,那是不是會減半?按照這個邏輯,因為你挖走了一半,我看這不只一半,這挖走了大概三分之二。因為你還有計劃型補助,還有這個三減的,挖了6千多億,總共挖走了8千多億,快9千億。所以挖走了不是只有一半,挖走快三分之二。"},{"start":4161.921,"end":4175.734,"text":"所以主席長就說補助會不會少一半啊?那補助少一半的話,那郭國文在問說那現在國光獎金是不是會少一半?那補助少一半,國光獎金也少一半啊?那少一半就是從700萬變成350萬啊?這是合乎邏輯的啊那為什麼講到這一點,國民黨就氣噗噗"},{"start":4182.24,"end":4210.219,"text":"國光獎金不會減少,只會多不會少,怎麼可能只會多不會少,你就從中央就挖走這麼多走了嘛,怎麼可能只會多不會少,所以我們現在只要講說,不是只有國光獎金,為什麼現在講國光獎金,然後國民黨會覺得很生氣,因為現在棒球熱,大家覺得說你為什麼要去剝奪這個球員的這個國光獎金,我們現在少棒,我跟你們看,我們少棒現在對這個韓國也領先,再回來這些小朋友應該也可以拿到獎金,"},{"start":4211.26,"end":4225.94,"text":"所以說呢,這個不是只有國光獎金,它還有很多的補助,很多本來這個中央要給地方的補助,都會減少啊,都會減少啊。所以我看嘛,0到2歲的育兒津貼也會減少。"},{"start":4227.262,"end":4230.324,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4245.058,"end":4262.377,"text":"就這麼多的本來這個中央對於這個地方的補助都會減少啊那都會減少那因為中央沒有這些錢啊那所以各個部會的減少的地方那以後是誰要來出勒以後要誰要來出勒中央沒有這些錢啊然後像我的選區在三重"},{"start":4263.749,"end":4281.964,"text":"那我的三重現在有要做捷運北環段,從這個三重到士林到最後到內湖。那以前過去有錢瞻,那現在沒有錢瞻了,那這些錢編入這個公務預算裡面。那編入公務預算裡面,那請問一下,那現在中央政府也沒有這麼多錢可以來補助地方了。"},{"start":4282.335,"end":4297.631,"text":"那未來這些捷運、軌道、輕軌這些錢是誰要來出?是地方要來出嗎?那地方是中央這個過去是中央可以協調這個新北跟台北那現在呢?那現在是雙北自己去協調說這個捷運要怎麼蓋嗎?那所以說今天我們談到這個錢跟權本來就要劃分今天不要把責任推給這個"},{"start":4305.019,"end":4314.915,"text":"內政部民政司他能做什麼樣的決定?他沒有辦法做任何決定嘛我們剛剛就說你這個地方制度法要修一起來修一起來談嗎?我的前提是"},{"start":4316.725,"end":4334.678,"text":"這個草案法可不可以修?可不可以討論?都可以,都可以討論,那也可以修,但是絕對不是說這個三分鐘就出委員會,然後出委員會之後大家到這邊,我看等一下大家有沒有共識,沒有共識你大概等一下就說我們就是送給院長協商,大概最後的結果就是這樣子。"},{"start":4335.999,"end":4350.207,"text":"但是各個委員我剛剛聽到委員同仁講說大家不知道說這個如果挖走六千多億然後這個哪些施政會受到影響那我就也要求各個部會你們哪些受到影響的你要跟這個所有的財政委員講"},{"start":4351.027,"end":4365.912,"text":"其實我相信大家都有這個資料了啦相信大家都有這些資料了真的都會受到影響受到影響那未來出事了又怪誰又怪民進黨又怪中央政府可是你沒有想到說地方已經拿走這麼多錢了"},{"start":4367.432,"end":4383.56,"text":"我再問主席長有超過15個縣市如果我們給他的這些補助款他會超過原來的這個他們自己編的這個稅數的預算那編做這些預算請問一下那這些縣市他們有想清楚就是說我突然做這些錢我要做什麼嗎?我要做什麼嗎?你們有想到嗎?"},{"start":4386.542,"end":4401.798,"text":"那有一句廣告詞啊,說阿姨我不想努力了,我不想努力了,不用努力了啊,縣市政府都不用努力了啊。就是說哪些受影響,那個主席你們這邊到時候在送協商前你們要把資料也都送過來。其實都有啦。那我剛問國防獎金影響多少嘛,你們要講嘛,對不對。他時間已經到了,這個我們...委員會我還要講完啦,我還要講完啦。"},{"start":4409.566,"end":4428.515,"text":"還有民政司趕快說內政部的交感受害。這不是民政司啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是民政司啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有民政司的問題啊。這不是只有"},{"start":4429.395,"end":4455.626,"text":"那個請部長過來沒有我講實在話啦是不是請部長過來就請部長過來我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算今天部長來也沒有用嘛我今天不想來就算"},{"start":4459.261,"end":4486.52,"text":"好我想那個其實我坐在這裏我蠻想知道第三條吳立華委員的提案他的用意是什麼其實我也蠻想知道的第二就是我還是要強調一下國民黨的版本目前算起來是六千多但民眾黨的版本一直都是兩千多億所以這個差異還是很大那第三個就是剛剛兩位議員兩位委員說著其實我早就跟竹記書要求了請你拿出來可能會受影響的東西但是他們每次都說的不一樣"},{"start":4486.92,"end":4487.04,"text":"主席"},{"start":4502.737,"end":4503.737,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":4530.367,"end":4530.787,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":4551.358,"end":4574.385,"text":"社福單位受到影響多少你們都要說清楚啊好不好而且如果以民眾黨的版本影響多少以國民黨的版本影響多少大家就把它做好分析分析清楚了我想民眾黨的委員也會也會願意理性的討論好不好尤其是這個第三條第三條我來說明一下你們要不要幫伍麗華人說我幫他說明一下第三條他的意見其實伍麗華委員他是有個別單條修正但是我們剛剛講到的是部分他的部分"},{"start":4578.626,"end":4579.686,"text":"現在財政收支劃分法的主體就是縣市政府"},{"start":4605.034,"end":4605.254,"text":"原住民區也有這個地位"},{"start":4620.535,"end":4622.878,"text":"你們要保留他的條文嗎?還是不要?我沒有要處理個別條文的問題。我們沒有意見,我對這一條沒意見,但你們要保留喔?我們想讓這一條破,你們不想要保留?你現在是要保留喔?第三條你們要保留嗎?"},{"start":4635.572,"end":4640.077,"text":"現在錢跟權都沒有辦法一起處理,你怎麼處理嘛?我跟你講,所有的案子根本都沒有辦法處理,所有相關的條文都清楚到錢跟權的問題,就沒有辦法處理嘛!"},{"start":4651.368,"end":4652.509,"text":"因為我們第三條想要過,你們想嗎?"},{"start":4675.728,"end":4701.029,"text":"我們全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意見全部都有意"},{"start":4705.014,"end":4705.294,"text":"財政局局長"},{"start":4733.831,"end":4747.982,"text":"提出一個新的修正動議,基本上的整個邏輯就是說,我們希望說能夠把各地方的一個稅收貢獻度納入財化法當中的考量,比照原本一正稅的一個部分的處理方式。"},{"start":4749.103,"end":4771.938,"text":"因為原本第八條的第三項當中是針對移政稅的部分處理方式,那我在這邊提出了一個新的修正動議,就是在第三項當中的時候把它修改成第一項第一款之所得稅因債以直轄市、縣市增企之收入的百分之五給該直轄市跟縣市,那這個邏輯就是要讓那個地方的稅收貢獻度能夠直接"},{"start":4772.418,"end":4777.322,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":4801.241,"end":4803.344,"text":"疑政稅部分保留5%給地方以上說明感謝"},{"start":4809.169,"end":4831.919,"text":"所以這個政見委員這一條是針對這個第八條的這個部分啦齁那這個第十二條的部分齁國民黨團也有提案齁我們也是保留啦齁剛剛因為那個郭國文委員也表達了民眾黨也有對那郭國文也已經表達了要保留的意見齁那所以我們當然也沒有辦法達成達成共識啦那十六條之一李彥秀委員齁好來沈伯陽委員請說"},{"start":4835.478,"end":4855.692,"text":"今天整個的關鍵其實就是第八條但是我還是要講一下就是剛剛趙文其實就跟之前講的話一模一樣那時候我在程序發言的時候就已經有講過今天會被影響的單位他應該來說明你那時候說好結果隔天就沒了他們也沒有發言啊然後現在又說在協商的時候再讓他們整理一次沒有任何的意義因為你等一下就要出委員會了"},{"start":4856.809,"end":4880.683,"text":"所以我覺得我先不要打...就要出這個委員會協商啦出委員會協商啦但是就是說現在這個狀況就是說為什麼一直講錢跟權我講一個簡單的道理按照國民黨的版本現在如果是六千多億的話你六千多億會影響到現在的哪些時政剛剛黃委員有提到說應該整理我先告訴大家我們辦公室直接看預算書也可以看得出來會影響哪些"},{"start":4881.503,"end":4901.615,"text":"最大宗的就是國防經費,因為國防經費,我知道國防外交嘛,國防外交不含人事費是2900多億嘛,那你今天要從其他的雜項湊到6000,基本上就是做不到嘛,比如說你少子化的對策也是346嘛,你治安維護現在是360,都是扣掉人事嘛,你這些湊不到6000,所以你要動就會動到國防。"},{"start":4902.915,"end":4921.28,"text":"那就回到剛剛為什麼要講這一個權力的問題因為今天譬如說國防它就是中央在做請問我們現在要把這個六千多億還要給台北市特別保障那現在是不是台北市要自己建一個魚叉飛彈叫蔣萬安魚叉飛彈嗎那蔣萬安來做國防就好了蔣萬安來守護我們這個國家就可以了嗎"},{"start":4921.96,"end":4937.931,"text":"所以今天你在地方制度法你今天不可能在裁劃法就決定權力的分配中央跟權力的分配是規定在憲法上面的我們還沒修憲呢還沒有修憲你只能針對地方自治的特定的一些事項來做微調"},{"start":4939.505,"end":4960.512,"text":"那在之前一直到現在地方盈餘是六百多億那你六百多億你現在要給他六千億是十倍了剛剛郭國文有講過那你這六千億現在給他他們要做什麼沒有方案耶沒有方案的話那他就是像剛剛離婚成果委員講到的啊他就是不想努力了嘛因為我坐在那邊就會有錢來啊我不需要提出計劃我就可以拿到相對應的金錢所以"},{"start":4961.292,"end":4986.274,"text":"今天我們不用再講說主計處要整理什麼哪些會被影響我們直接看今年度的預算書除非國民黨根本就不想審預算就從頭到尾都不看預算書當然不知道哪些預算會受到影響啊我在國防外交我今天去這個內政委員我去看陸委會的我看也知道哪一些會被影響你只要把法定預算扣除把一般補助計畫補助扣除剩下的就是會被影響的嘛這個會很困難嘛"},{"start":4987.495,"end":5008.015,"text":"接下來你只要看他被影響的比例嘛,你的比例不管是用原來的,假設是將近二分之一來算,還是把剛剛一般性計劃性放下來算三分之二,你影響的%數就在那邊啊。所以為什麼會講說今天七百萬的這個獎金會直接變三百五十萬,這不是亂推測的,這是按照國民黨版本的比例算出來就是現在這個樣子。"},{"start":5009.196,"end":5031.913,"text":"所以我還是要再講一次就是說不要再說什麼這個沒有資料那個沒有資料資料全部都擺在這一邊今天第八條把這一個10%變成25%這一個就是造成最大的一個後援嘛你為什麼會到6000多億這個10%到25%就是一個關鍵呢所以拜託這個都應該在委員會討論你那時候都有答應我那時候說國防部應該來說明因為國防部會受影響最大"},{"start":5032.353,"end":5042.177,"text":"你說好,為什麼隔天來了以後結果什麼都沒有討論委員會如果維持現在10%這就是你們的問題啊你們提了一個有違憲之餘的法案然後你會說我們違憲的版本在哪裡你就提了一個殺人法案然後我說殺人不對你問我說我的殺人的法案在哪裡這是什麼道理啊"},{"start":5056.843,"end":5072.887,"text":"你自己提有問題的法案然後你叫我們說我們要提一個有問題的當作對案今天伍麗華委員的版本跟這個一點關係都沒有欸他不是在搞這一個六千億欸他是把這個主體多了石匣寺山地文明這一個放進去欸所以這一個不是在講水平跟垂直分配的問題欸你不要自己提出這些"},{"start":5077.688,"end":5081.392,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等16人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。委員賴瑞隆等16人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5095.166,"end":5099.531,"text":"我已經講了第八條的不應該到25%那理由非常簡單不是絕對不可以是你憲法跟地方制度法你沒有修你把這一個25%拉出來沒有啊 你的權利在哪裡"},{"start":5113.126,"end":5127.954,"text":"你今天如果修了二十五條,你多出來的財源,請問你要給地方自治的事項,那個事項對應在哪裡嗎?你沒有那個對應的事項嗎?你對應的事項是存在啊?如果你有對應的事項,你可以作為修法理由的基礎嘛。你說我有這個某某某對應的事項,但我現在這個財源不夠,所以我根據這個不夠,"},{"start":5134.918,"end":5137.219,"text":"李燕秀維你的修正動議你要不要表達一下意見"},{"start":5152.128,"end":5152.228,"text":"國防預算國防預算"},{"start":5178.482,"end":5204.129,"text":"在立法院其實每一個委員都是獨立的個體我覺得大家都彼此都不要去批評別人的法案我覺得不要互相批評但是什麼是一個合理的法案我覺得就是透過朝野協商透過我們最後協商的方式大家盡量來溝通今天所有的法案最後都會是用直播的方式大家國人也都可以看得到第三"},{"start":5205.229,"end":5226.775,"text":"所有不管是做長照、做兒扶、哪怕是做其他的項目,其實都是地方自治的範圍。地方自治是規範基本的大原則,而且是滾動式的修正。比如上次慈安發生問題的時候,原來中央其實要求做很多事情,但後來中央也發現他自己做不了。"},{"start":5227.395,"end":5256.052,"text":"那他也把很多的業務跟工作交給地方所以我應該說很多地方制的自治事項他都只規範大原則大方向而且是滾動式的修正那至於未來中央跟地方有時候權責怎麼分配那當然如果權責分配多一點那地方分配多一點如果中央願意扛多一點那當然地方有時候他大家就是可以互相去做調整好那我回過頭來剩下最後一分半鐘我想要提一下我今天的修正動議"},{"start":5257.433,"end":5278.599,"text":"過去其實就只有二讀臺北市跟高雄市88年的時候修過一次財劃法但是我們現在已經是六都的狀態那我覺得除了這一次在很多的原則性大家只討論人口跟面積之外我覺得應該也要把所謂的盈利事業稅的部分財務的貢獻度也應該納進來做考量"},{"start":5284.121,"end":5287.103,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等16人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。委員賴瑞隆等16人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5306.095,"end":5306.195,"text":"主席"},{"start":5336.255,"end":5337.456,"text":"財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條"},{"start":5362.628,"end":5362.708,"text":"主席"},{"start":5381.116,"end":5385.099,"text":"以上是三大項我的修正動議我希望調整的方向謝謝"},{"start":5403.661,"end":5418.097,"text":"這個樣子李燕秀委員所提到的營業稅鼓勵縣市政府大家也努力財政努力這點我是非常贊成的我們希望大家能夠列入考慮第二個"},{"start":5419.498,"end":5441.756,"text":"今天其實我們結論都已經有了嘛剛才郭國文委員這個非常的慷慨激昂講一番話之後其實就已經定調了嘛所以今天來講的話今天不會有結論嘛因為我們要從第3條吳立法委員的條文第3條我們要支持他也不要所以今天不會有結論今天等於是大家就郭國文不要我們要支持你他也不要啊整個"},{"start":5449.542,"end":5457.385,"text":"各位偉大的政治家今天我們是朝野協商協商一般來講不會去表決也不需要太激情的演出大家就來看大家喬水喬水喬水就往前坐"},{"start":5476.852,"end":5477.132,"text":"主席"},{"start":5495.509,"end":5500.193,"text":"這個覺得他是新秀,這個民進黨是新秀,還撥運去台第一名,不要這樣動不動給人家送帽子啦!委員們的法案都是法案怎麼一下就違憲啊!啊!這個殺人法案不要用這樣的帽子,真的!我很看重你,而且我認為你是民進黨的明日之星啊!"},{"start":5514.106,"end":5524.134,"text":"沒有 你不需要我們這個...你會當國防部長?對!如果洪森亮都可以當國防部長?我們黨團說...我不是洪森亮可以當國防部長?沈柏洋就可以當國防部長?對!沒關係 這個真的...不要斷不動就扣人家帽子說是違憲大家..."},{"start":5529.398,"end":5540.366,"text":"每一個立委都在那裡辛辛苦苦寫東西他有你對他有意見我們就改嘛六千多億他也就改我不是給你改了要三千億大家來討論嘛就大家討論的意思嘛不要說啊這個一下就殺人法案違憲法案真的這樣子沒辦法討論下去大家彼此尊重啦大家都一樣大不要說怎麼樣大家一樣大所以我們覺得今天結論已經有了結論就是沒有結論"},{"start":5558.78,"end":5582.812,"text":"所以大家就發揮啊,不必太激情發揮啦,因為結論都有了嘛,就是說反正你們大家都在談,他都有一堆小的結論來講,國共講了,我們要尊重,我們要尊重,他每一條都要保留,我們就尊重他每一條都保留。所以今天,今天阿伯是記過的啦,但是,但是我要提醒行政部門,"},{"start":5583.912,"end":5609.725,"text":"每一個委員提到的東西,你們就要去準備一下,剛才一直在講錢跟權,那這裡面還講,我不認為會影響國防什麼兩千九百多億啊,這個,怎麼樣算都沒有這個東西啦,不會有這個東西啦,那你國光獎金,你如果欠債公共了,人家給你獎,你就這樣子運了什麼獎金我撿你半,也不會有這回事啦,獎金那個東西,你搶很好搶的啊,這個叫,隨便說說,這些東西,我是覺得,"},{"start":5612.586,"end":5637.302,"text":"不需要給大家戴帽子真的大家都一樣大好不好大家都是立委沒有說誰比較大誰比較沒有大家都一起大不管你是選出來的或者是不分區的我們都尊重大家那今天的程序已經有結論了嘛結論就是國會委員講說每一條都保留我們尊重就每一條都保留好不好其他就可以講這樣而已啦"},{"start":5638.243,"end":5640.324,"text":"我修的這條文是財劃法的第三條第四款那我簡單說明一下因為六都合併的時候"},{"start":5667.742,"end":5691.876,"text":"曾經我們的這些鄉一度失去公法人的地位,引起嘩然。所以呢,在大家的一個炮聲隆隆下呢,在2014年又再度修法回來。但是呢,那個時候修地制法83條7,結果造成了我們的這個自主財源呢,變成稅客收入是零。"},{"start":5692.896,"end":5711.382,"text":"那這個對我們的園區影響很大,因為像以納瑪夏來講,上次質詢我有講過,我們算過,他依賴他的中央是91%,高達這麼高,那其他的幾乎都在五、六十以上。"},{"start":5712.142,"end":5736.115,"text":"所以這個困擾大家很多年只能透過修法所以這一次我們財化法的第三條怎麼辦呢把它補回去把這個漏掉的當年的疏漏我們有中央有直轄市有縣市有鄉鎮縣轄市我們把它補回去第四款直轄市山地原住民區這樣就解決了好不好好我們支持啊我想民眾黨支持嗎"},{"start":5739.977,"end":5740.217,"text":"財政部"},{"start":5756.525,"end":5782.386,"text":"在召開這個財化法的時候,也要邀原民區的公所來。我報告一下,這是他們回給我的。新北市烏來區公所,認同並大力支持。桃園市復興區公所,認同支持。和平區公所、桃園區公所、納瑪夏區公所、茂林區公所,也就是影響到的六個園區,全部都認同大力支持。所以拜託大家,謝謝。"},{"start":5783.387,"end":5784.587,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等16人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5808.033,"end":5835.26,"text":"這完全是不一樣的,不是因為說他修了這個《財化法》第三條、第四條,那我們同意的,那就等於是說後面的這個《財化法》,你們這種大的修文要同意啊。他是針對現行的這個《財化法》,他認為有不公平的地方,現在講得很清楚嘛,他來修嘛。那今天這個狀況是這樣子啊,今天狀況,我這一本有國民黨的,有六千多億。那這邊呢,我還有民眾黨的,兩千多億。"},{"start":5836.6,"end":5855.067,"text":"阿這邊還有剛剛才拿過來的那是修正動議對阿對啊阿我先不管這修正動議一個兩千多餘的一個六千多餘你是要怎麼去過阿不是不是那就討論阿對啊阿所以我看你就是想要一條一條這樣過阿沒有我意見就把每一件都讓他過阿都是這樣寫的嗎我的意思我的意思是說大家不管是國民黨民眾黨或是民進黨對於這長話法到底要怎麼去分"},{"start":5866.871,"end":5891.656,"text":"其實意見其實差別還很大連剛剛這個離席的賴社保委員他說他3000多億今天不是說我要幾千億、兩千億、三千億、六千億多億今天就是好好去討論一下真的好好討論一下因為各黨的歧義實在是太大了你沒辦法說我今天在這邊花兩個小時那我們就決定是要用兩千億的版本、三千億的版本或是六千億的版本謝謝李坤農、黃珊珊委員"},{"start":5892.236,"end":5892.536,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5915.081,"end":5940.539,"text":"那個剛剛委員講的的確是要先賦予他有一個可以分配的這個權利那但是因為同時水平分配的公司那邊其實他們所有的面積啊原民區的面積跟人口都算給直轄市所以這個對這個部分就得再處理不然的話單定這一條沒有用"},{"start":5943.521,"end":5958.868,"text":"對,那目前就是他想要取得像鄉鎮一樣的地位吧只是他覺得那個他替園民區覺得說那些園民區拿的不夠不是啊,你們支不支持呢你們支不支持他的提案因為這樣的對"},{"start":5964.742,"end":5991.129,"text":"對,你們支不支持?因為這樣子就會有重複的現象啦所以你們是不支持啊?那也沒辦法啊?不是說支不支持,就是說有這種現象我們必須要告訴你們就是這個部分這樣算對,那這個部分還因為你如果說照面積算因為一般我們就會照面積啊照人口但是這個面積裡面它就已經算在直轄市裡面那現在你又另外再算一次那這樣就本身就重複了啦"},{"start":5992.524,"end":6008.219,"text":"我們要的是數據啊我們開會開這麼久都要你們提出數據像你們像民進黨委員也一直提說什麼事權什麼我們一直要內政部提出什麼影響該修什麼法你們送過來啊內政部也一直不送過來我再說事權的部分事實上你剛剛說的75和25的部分"},{"start":6011.022,"end":6011.562,"text":"委員提出案子你們要試算"},{"start":6040.862,"end":6041.843,"text":"現在您剛說4700億,然後另外補助,統籌款4700億,差不多你剛講本來是4043億,後來明年可能會變4700億,統籌款統籌款。"},{"start":6057.279,"end":6058.019,"text":"主席負責審查"},{"start":6082.694,"end":6084.616,"text":"我兩個意見,第一,我想說的是,如果說我們就先把文字修進來,因為對我來講,我什麼時候才等得到這個修法?"},{"start":6101.673,"end":6127.735,"text":"那我覺得這個當年的錯誤、錯漏這個時候如果可以的話請大家支持我們把它修進來。第二第二那其他要考慮的我覺得方法很多即便是用財化法第38條之一如果真的影響到這些所謂的六都那我覺得由中央專案補足其實有一些像高雄市政府也同意這樣的方法"},{"start":6132.211,"end":6153.695,"text":"對。但是我覺得退一萬步至少我覺得他只是還給他在法條中他缺少的這個文字你應該補回去啊我覺得連這個把他補回去他現在在整個財化法裡面他完全沒有地位他是公法人耶可是卻沒有地位耶這是錯誤耶我們只是把補正而已是"},{"start":6157.694,"end":6157.814,"text":"韓院長協商"},{"start":6185.606,"end":6186.126,"text":"主席財政部長"}]}},{"id":"16326","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16326","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6090d48a73477a26751854fbf32ecbfc659b104c5adbfed68f7e49d8c74f6542c0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-29T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":2228.59,"end":2257.357,"text":"參考國外制度如日本、韓國及人事考選機關構﹐不乏設立研究部門的案例我國考試院或所屬部會﹐未來是否應成立國家考試測驗研究所或中心﹐以建立題庫和口試標準化作業﹐是個人關心的目標此外﹐某些部門、行業或離島地區﹐在外語需求、專業食物興業﹐和地區的特殊性上也有不同的考慮因此考試制度也需因地制宜不斷優化"},{"start":2259.196,"end":2272.664,"text":"國外如新加坡對於清涼和高階文官的培訓體制﹐有期可取之處﹐個人期望持續就適用於我國的優劣利弊﹐進行可行性分析﹐並提出建議是國際事業與專業認證﹐以我過去關注的"},{"start":2275.796,"end":2296.314,"text":"海洋領域委員．相關官員必須知道．攸關國家權益的．最新協議和措施趨勢．例如國家管轄領域外區域．多生物多樣性保育協定．和近日在韓國釜山召開的．全球塑膠工業第五輪懲判．對我國的遠洋漁業、外貿產業．國民健康和生態環境等．"},{"start":2297.844,"end":2320.843,"text":"都有可能產生重大衝擊此外我國雖然通過了海洋產業發展條例和海洋保育法但尚未落實與實現因此例如海洋保護區、海洋空間規劃、藍色經濟、氣候變遷和海洋碳匯如何接軌國際、人才如何培養和認證都是先進議題文觀予以備具一定的素養和知識才能讓我國成為與海共榮的海洋國家"},{"start":2321.423,"end":2345.757,"text":"近年來政府大力推動2050淨零碳排、離岸風電、生態與環境整合．全國生態綠網、水下考古、自然保育與景觀保護的政策．應有關碳排管理師、海洋規劃師．海洋工程技師、生態技師、景觀技師．和水下考古人員認證等．有倡議．為事後合一、仍以能代多方對話．"},{"start":2346.537,"end":2365.335,"text":"建立明確的人才培育和認真的制度這些都是個人期望能整合各方意見．有所貢獻的課題或許努力依據中華民國憲法增修條文第6條．考試院為國家最高考試機關．掌理考試權序保障復續退休及任免考積"},{"start":2366.636,"end":2383.193,"text":"及奉升遷褒獎法證事宜個人由過去的教學及參與國家考試事務中深刻提認到此一國家憲政機關的重要性個人在考試行政立法部門的歷練相信可協助考試院事務經濟、法治溝通和政策推動"},{"start":2384.034,"end":2402.165,"text":"為未盡閒守與或深入的部分．將虛心聽啟．大院各位委員、考試院同仁．相關機關和權益各方之意見．進行研究與務實回應．羅盟大院同意為考試委員．將一本初衷．努力貢獻．不負所託．敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝邱備提名忍之說明"},{"start":2410.058,"end":2422.774,"text":"現在進行委員詢問每位委員詢答時間20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員如不在場視為棄權首先請蘇委員侵權詢問"},{"start":2443.472,"end":2464.966,"text":"謝謝主席我請邱委員請邱備提名人委員好邱委員我請你邱委員因為我們第8屆立委我們是同事現在主席也是同事"},{"start":2468.05,"end":2484.174,"text":"為了你的事情我昨天還去請教國民黨副署長那我因為你在馬英九時代第一個問題之後你在馬英九時代當環保署副署長然後在112年20162012到2016你還是部分區那所以"},{"start":2492.852,"end":2513.78,"text":"請問因為公務人員的忠誠度非常重要那你以前有當過國民黨執政期十幾的政務官立法委員那你或考試院提名前後是否有向黨部報備或者是徵求同意或者黨部來推薦你跟蘇委員報告"},{"start":2515.285,"end":2537.372,"text":"我是依據總統府秘書長在3月5號行文給全國150所大三院校還有包括幾個機關團體的方式來進行申請的這個過程當中我事實上只認為是"},{"start":2538.869,"end":2553.387,"text":"這是一個從大專院校徵才海選的過程我並不清楚還有其他的任何的管道這是第一個說明那第二個就是我認為這個考試院依照憲法的規定第88條的規定"},{"start":2555.762,"end":2585.155,"text":"那考試委員必須要超脫黨派之外依照法律來獨立行使職權所以我認為考試院應該不應該有政黨的色彩或者是政治的色彩而應該是超然獨立的為文官制度的領選培訓跟他的保障來盡力那我認為這兩點是希望所以你不是國民黨政黨推薦嗎我完全不知道還有這個管道"},{"start":2587.29,"end":2615.616,"text":"所以就讓立法院來做決定來投票看看你能不能獲聘會不會通過當然我們追蹤大院的任何決定好那等到投票結果再說了第二個問題你在國外念了碩士博士在UPenn嘛對不對是那你在那邊幾年"},{"start":2617.233,"end":2642.302,"text":"我在那邊七年,從1984年到1991年那你的小孩是不是有在那邊出生的老大在台灣出生,兩歲的時候跟著去念書小的在那邊出生那現在最近台灣有搞外國學歷搞到上街頭什麼的我倒是要問你,因為在國外受教育的"},{"start":2644.428,"end":2668.847,"text":"我們因為留學、遷徙、移民或者是婚姻而不得不到國外去有一些外交官的小孩也在那邊出生就像你的小孩那他在國外念書回來到台灣以前是非常的平順那現在搞到這樣因為一個波瀾的學歷的問題"},{"start":2671.052,"end":2688.551,"text":"然後搞到現在全世界回來的伊學院校的像我看到在NYU的回來的也不能考試考試又不能實習那你的看法你當考試委你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":2690.047,"end":2709.477,"text":"各位報告我想這個很多事情我們不能單從一個個案或是一個特例來看待應該綜合性的來看待所謂的問題那如果我們回歸到這個憲法的一個規定憲法第15條人民的工作權本來就應該保障"},{"start":2710.923,"end":2735.459,"text":"所以我認為說婆婆醫生的問題是一個議題但是大家應該可以來非常平心靜氣的來討論這個議題到底是怎樣不應該是單獨針對某一個族群或者某一個群體我覺得這一點大家一起來討論但是過去考試院這邊事實上是"},{"start":2736.44,"end":2763.918,"text":"配合衛福部提出的考試規則所以任何的考試規則考試院在制定的時候都不是依照各個目的事業主管機關所提出來的相關需求或者是規定然後我們把它納入考試規則我的意思就是說你有到國外去受教育你應該會比較宏觀高度要夠"},{"start":2766.78,"end":2793.473,"text":"全世界九大地區的念醫學牙醫的藥學的回來到臺灣我們就直接認可他的學歷甚至於以前在日本只要念到博士學位考上日本的醫師執照回到臺灣就可以直接換證書喔那後來又要考試了那現在就九大地區的像南非、香港、日本等等"},{"start":2794.776,"end":2810.09,"text":"現在回來全部今年入學的全部都要回來考鑑定考試就是Pretest鑑定考試考完鑑定考試醫學的Pretest的及格率才10%牙醫的才6%"},{"start":2815.114,"end":2816.915,"text":"副院長 副院長 副院長 副院長 副院長 副院長"},{"start":2836.089,"end":2846.855,"text":"他二考過之後才有醫師證書然後進到教學院裡面才要進入PGY1、Y2還要兩年台灣這個制度差不多全世界第一名"},{"start":2856.689,"end":2879.097,"text":"這張會不會走回頭路現在在美國在你念哈佛大學念史丹佛啦像我們主席的小孩子在Texas嘛在Texas回來要途中要這樣一人一人考以前這樣是什麼意思啊台灣第一名台灣什麼都想搞是這樣嗎你在看我"},{"start":2881.069,"end":2898.575,"text":"謝謝蘇委員我想過去蘇委員對這個醫療系統都非常的清楚了對這個醫生的這個培訓的過程也非常清楚那我也回想到過去在賓州大學美國賓州大學呢他的醫學院是非常好的"},{"start":2900.929,"end":2922.242,"text":"有些國家的醫療水準培訓的嚴謹度是非常高的所以這個部分到底要不要分開來處理或者是說我們分級來處理其實我們必須要看一下衛福單位的意見醫護單位的意見來做一個合適的處理我想考試院這邊"},{"start":2923.503,"end":2951.539,"text":"如果我們有這個機會去服務的話我們會聽取各方的意見來做審慎的配合這個你一定要用宏觀的角度為這個拉高一點不然的話這樣每一個人都是鑽牛角尖每一個人都海島國家的特性狹隘這是很糟糕的事情我們再這樣走回頭路的話台灣是會退步的"},{"start":2952.78,"end":2956.408,"text":"在國外念法律系、念會計系你回來不要讓他考會計師、讓他考律師嗎"},{"start":2960.39,"end":2983.765,"text":"在美國本地人要申請醫學院也不太好申請那如果你是拿綠卡的那更不好申請那美國人自己申請醫學院醫學系4年加4年第二個4年如果申請不到他們就跑到加拿大去申請跑到美國的屬地譬如說波多黎各、格雷納達那邊他們有一些學校都在那邊設婚校"},{"start":2984.685,"end":3010.501,"text":"在那邊唸了再申請是你得到的話就一部分時間在美國一部分時間在那個屬地那這個還OK另外再來再申請不到他們就跑到歐洲去唸就所謂產生歐盟有一些藝學是有一些英文班啊什麼班那舊歐盟15個國家新歐盟10個國家他們都混在一起歐盟是混在一起"},{"start":3011.209,"end":3034.34,"text":"那我據我了解你在匈牙利念、你在西班牙念他們的最後一次的畢業考就是美國的醫師考試的Part 1那你這邊考過之後就是畢業了那你就可以直接到美國的醫院去實習他們是這樣所以是拿那個Part 1的考試來當作畢業考"},{"start":3038.277,"end":3066.041,"text":"非常好阿那台灣現在跑去那邊練的就跟人家一起讀嘛讀英文班嘛阿敢講到這樣汙名化、講到這樣很卑賤的言語就是霸凌、霸凌、霸凌就像我們現在在霸凌這樣齁我是覺得大可不必啦你要考試你就像剛剛你要一關一關考你要一關一關考我們都沒有意見但是他只要能考得過表示說他是Qualify嘛你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":3067.045,"end":3095.492,"text":"我想這個每一個學校訓練的嚴謹度還有他這個實習的時間那麼過去的一些醫療的一個經驗等等都應該綜合評估了然後讓每一個學校或者是每一個地區的水準我們大家都寥如指掌我覺得這樣子的話不是針對某一個特定的族群或者是群體他在制定的這個考試規則才會是適材適所而且是比較公平正義"},{"start":3098.423,"end":3126.146,"text":"因為我們台灣跟國際接軌所以我們一定要放開心胸我們用人家人才人家用我們的人才這是天經地義嘛所以我昨天看那個ASML他們說他們的好幾百個員工都是台灣過去的這是好事啊他們也會回來嘛所以不要那麼狹隘好那接著我再問你現在霸凌那麼嚴重"},{"start":3128.659,"end":3133.145,"text":"你們考試院那個保訓會啊到底扮演什麼角色你知道嗎"},{"start":3134.934,"end":3158.315,"text":"依照公務人員保障法第19條我們當然是有這個責任因為公務人員的衛生跟安全的部分必須要制定相關的措施這個部分制定法律的部分是考試院的職責考試院這邊我相信未來會多聽取大家的意見"},{"start":3159.237,"end":3170.776,"text":"我們考試院有一個安全衛生的辦法是保訓會那行政院又搞一個員工資產霸凌防治流程這兩個有沒有打架"},{"start":3172.397,"end":3197.873,"text":"這個是各有各的一個行政體制因為這個部分的確委員點出一個很重要的一個觀點就是我們到底有沒有一個比較通盤性的全盤性這個比較整體性的一個看法例如說有些的這個防制霸凌它叫做作業的準則有些叫做要點那有的叫標準流程那你會認為行政院這一個"},{"start":3202.205,"end":3210.254,"text":"這個制度啊 不會關關相覆啦﹖或者是掩蓋事實啦﹖或者是施案啦﹖你們認為會不會"},{"start":3212.764,"end":3240.075,"text":"當然外界有疑慮所以我是說我們這個制度的建立必須要非常的嚴謹所以這個部分我是覺得我們應該要各方要一起來對話所以你如果有機會的話你們這個保訓會一定要好好的來加強功能不要讓人家看不到你們在扮演什麼角色再來我們考試院有一個國家文官學院"},{"start":3241.378,"end":3266.453,"text":"行政也有一個公務人力發展學院這兩個是在做什麼這兩個功能不太一樣在考試院的部分他比較強調是在出任文官升官等的升等比如說兼任升到檢任甚至是高階文官的培訓但是行政人事總署的這個機制他是比較從這個在職訓練所以兩個這個是不一樣的"},{"start":3270.177,"end":3289.612,"text":"所以現在建任的要升檢任的要上文官授訓是去文官授訓還是在行政院授訓應該是考試院如果沒了解錯誤的話所以那個那個行政院這一個是一個一個是什麼下令營再次訓練再次訓練"},{"start":3292.421,"end":3320.648,"text":"就等於夏令營的意思啦就是他現在已經有工作了然後再讓他培養他的一個所以你們考試院本身要硬起來啊你們這樣搞什麼啊我看你們都人家都把你全部要幹掉啦然後最後最嚴重就是你們說沒有考試委員期間你們考選部部長、全系部部長、保訓會主委三個人就可以開會緊急必要事項自己搞一搞那這樣選你們考試委員幹嘛"},{"start":3322.261,"end":3346.246,"text":"我想這個是不得已的一個措施因為我們遲遲考試委員沒有上任所以依照這個相關的法律或者憲法授予的這個權利他都必須有一定的延期的行政程序所以如果沒有的話他是有所不足的所以沒有考試委員還沒產生之前這三個人就可以"},{"start":3347.046,"end":3375.417,"text":"那是在做一些緊急而必要的那你們將來如果成立之後要追認嗎?要追認,一樣一樣追認嗎?我想應該會的應該會啦因為啦,你們科技委員很重要你的重要是在哪裡?非你們不可,你們要秀出來啊不然我覺得,好像有也好沒也好我們會努力所以你們要拿起來啊好,最後一個問題齁"},{"start":3376.854,"end":3401.682,"text":"你跟田丘警委員在第8屆的時候你們就是海洋委員會就是你們兩個推出來的嘛那我那現在的海巡署就是在海洋委員會下面嘛那我沒有推那個海巡署你就把他當作第二海軍就當作第二海軍在噗嚨啊你看現在在海岸跟對岸的那個海警船"},{"start":3403.646,"end":3422.271,"text":"軍艦不敢出去嘛 不敢對幹都用海警船 都用我們的海巡署下去我們的小船去碰大船我是覺得他們很危險耶文彥兄你覺得怎麼樣警修 剛剛您的題目是好像是要提到將來警修的這個能不能組工櫃嘛"},{"start":3423.376,"end":3439.657,"text":"主工會以外就是他們的退休軍第二海軍嘛你就比照軍人嘛95%、90%、85%也可以啊不能把他們當作一般警察都都逗某鬧鬧的啊就出事啊呼吸一下我覺得這樣"},{"start":3441.48,"end":3463.033,"text":"太粗魯了吧 你認為呢 這個是你跟田蕉井催生出來的 我要看你的立場我想這個錦霄的工作非常的辛苦 那海選署的工作當然也是不例外所以我也非常的諒解 體認就是海洋委員會所有工作同仁的辛苦"},{"start":3464.175,"end":3485.878,"text":"但是這個警消是不是要比照軍人有更好的待遇所以我們現在的機制已經比一般的公務人員他的待遇、他的退休、提早的年齡等等都有比較好的一個規劃所得替代力很差我覺得我們對公務人員你們這個保訓的"},{"start":3487.646,"end":3509.133,"text":"國務院的信賴保護原則希臘碰到經濟危機在財務在怎麼爛已經整個中央銀行都要配德國德意志銀行收編被人家接收了他們對於原來的退休人員他們還是承諾還是繼續堅持下去希臘有倒嗎沒有倒啊"},{"start":3509.927,"end":3527.218,"text":"有更差嗎 沒有啊 現在看起來越來越好啊所以這種政府跟人家簽約 你要當念軍校也好 念警察也好那個當初都是簽約的 簽了之後就退後你轉到台 到台 到台 你認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":3531.072,"end":3553.188,"text":"我覺得從大方向當然我們對政府的財政也必須維持它的穩定但是不同的職業有不同的需求應該可以來討論所以我覺得這個部分我們會多聽取大家的意見來提出我們的看法最後一個問題剛剛你講的"},{"start":3556.614,"end":3560.909,"text":"營銷 消防人員也是很危險消防人員他們要組工會等等 你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":3562.885,"end":3585.595,"text":"主公會事實上每一個國家的制度不太一樣有些國家它的錦梟是可以主公會的但是它有一定的限制有些是不能主公會因為這裡面涉及到罷工權的問題錦梟的職務其實它是公法的一個關係而且是對人民的生命財產是非常的重要"},{"start":3586.015,"end":3586.815,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3606.382,"end":3624.557,"text":"希望能夠兼顧到我們錦霄的權益所以這個部分怎麼樣保障錦霄的權益讓他們有更好的一個生活環境、工作環境這才是真正的關鍵還有最後就是因公殉職跟因公死亡"},{"start":3625.613,"end":3645.694,"text":"這個常常很大的爭議所以你們考試委員、全席部一定要站在公務人員的立場不要處處刁難搞了好幾個案子全部都是很辛苦那這些委員一個比一個頭腦還硬"},{"start":3648.654,"end":3665.811,"text":"這個你如果有信應上去這一點要堅持好不好會的我們會感同身受的有共同力心的來繼續努力謝謝好謝謝蘇委員謝謝邱備提名人下一位請王美惠委員詢問"},{"start":3686.451,"end":3692.014,"text":"主席,我們請求被提名人請被提名人答詢王議員好你好應該也要尊稱你一個學長在第8屆時你做過我們的立委是國民黨提名你的"},{"start":3712.995,"end":3713.255,"text":"我現在還是國民黨籍"},{"start":3741.904,"end":3748.567,"text":"因為在這裏我認為應該是我們考試院裏的部份黨派﹑外交會團選都說 要進來做官的選要有民進黨"},{"start":3760.704,"end":3780.61,"text":"我們可以看出我們的總統提名率不分黨派但是有人說補助也有可能你提名率高,國民黨有邀請你回去收名你是如何來擔任這個政府委員會請問你,你能否回去收名"},{"start":3785.202,"end":3799.172,"text":"跟委員報告這是有的因為我在5月31號獲得總統府提名的時候就在第一個時間因為中午就結束嘛下午1點鐘的時候我就立刻聯繫中央黨部"},{"start":3800.313,"end":3818.056,"text":"有跟依照秘書長的指示我在星期一的時候6月3號就到我們中央黨部去做親自的說明依照這個考記會的這個意見我們提供書面的說明所以我是有說明的"},{"start":3818.476,"end":3826.723,"text":"你有說明 本席跟你請教一個問題因為現在的幾個黨都紛紛擾擾 我覺得都沒辦法超越黨派今天你來投票的時候 你選擇這個節目的時候萬一國民黨你開競 其中一個人選 你會想法的"},{"start":3846.018,"end":3862.347,"text":"像黨部會有他自己的規定或是他自己的考量那這個部分我是尊重我們黨的這個決定但是如果有幸進去到考試院依照憲法的規定考試委員本來就超脫黨派"},{"start":3863.328,"end":3881.248,"text":"這次提名也有看到兩位國民黨的一位原住民其實他是跨黨派所以我從開始參與的時候我就沒有這個概念說他是哪一個黨哪一個派的事情這是國家的事情保障國家文官制度的一個該做的工作"},{"start":3882.386,"end":3897.62,"text":"因為聽出來你的說明 我覺得這樣很好可以超越黨派 可以替一個國家做事情是很大的影響所以在這今天 大家跟我說 大家問一些問題在第二天的時候 剛才你有報告來賓你身為台北街的委員"},{"start":3907.128,"end":3918.759,"text":"提案很多：若在本縣有人注意到：你的第一個提案：就是選辦法：你提案裡面：就是將我們現在的分分樓樓：在那裡緩解很多"},{"start":3922.906,"end":3937.134,"text":"的問題出在這 因為你提這樣的時候 你是提說要附帶新聞集我再問一下 到你現在已經過了十幾年了 你這個想法因為時空背景不一樣 環境也不一樣 你的想法到目前為止"},{"start":3944.398,"end":3963.429,"text":"你會有改變嗎?這個提案來因為這個提案當中有到二讀的時候三讀都沒有因為我們當時的王院長我們也可以大家多溝通、多協調還可以來選擇這個法要不然我們有起來了解說"},{"start":3968.092,"end":3969.773,"text":"您在第8屆議會的時候 跟您剛才說的時候是怎麼不去講到這個憲法法是不是就這個機會來講一下 來"},{"start":3979.292,"end":4003.122,"text":"好的我對這方面其實過去因為那是在剛開始在擔任立法委的時候提出來的所以我對整個相關事情的這個評估可能沒有那麼的清楚但是我覺得我們提出這個想法其實是可以來討論就是怎麼樣讓這個我們的制度是比較合理的"},{"start":4003.963,"end":4014.316,"text":"尤其是要不要付身份證這個銀牌的部分怎麼樣去認證如果是有一個更好的方法或是大家有一個共識的情況之下我覺得是可以討論的"},{"start":4015.916,"end":4022.96,"text":"現在的所解釋是 希望大家都有共識的時間來做比較好因為我認為 長久以來在2012年 那時候幾十年我們的國民黨的執政沒有發動"},{"start":4038.306,"end":4049.069,"text":"在八成的時期所以在時空八成的時候我相信你選擇這個選擇也有你當時的想法不過你未來的改善就是說我們能夠協調好、參選好這是最重要的"},{"start":4059.092,"end":4075.444,"text":"本身也覺得你有你的專業因為我看出來的時候你包括對海巡署這個單位你非常有專業也有你未來的時候可以提出你的專業來處理"},{"start":4081.769,"end":4086.754,"text":"因為考試院就是我們的公務人員最近大家都紛紛擾擾 會講的話就是做得不好"},{"start":4101.872,"end":4116.201,"text":"我聽人家霸凌這個問題的時候 中央有處理要不夠處理的當中 問題的處理很大在這 我要來去請教一個問題現在我們最近有 你應該有關心那個謝毅龍在基隆的大廈裏面面前"},{"start":4129.537,"end":4133.158,"text":"我想我們行政機關都是要依法行政"},{"start":4159.561,"end":4167.327,"text":"對啦當然要依法行政啦我現在跟你說的這也依法行政啦因為這個編輯不是他已經沒說"},{"start":4172.813,"end":4195.062,"text":"公務人員的主席他還是公務人員的主席他是現有的政府部委員他未來如果有公家機關還要來用的時候他還是還要有主席我們的面子不能讓他做公務人員是我們需要的"},{"start":4197.25,"end":4217.656,"text":"全屆委員會破關後應該送去他的公務人員的家是不是這樣來請你回答一下是的依照這個考試法的規定這個要打丁等例如是丁等或者是兩次大過免職"},{"start":4218.496,"end":4240.825,"text":"他必須有一定法定的程序所以考機法裡面有規定幾項的那個要件比如說你是背叛國家、貪污等等但是這個部分他還是要經過一個考機會的一個程序所以他今天免除這個指揮官是不是在行政程序上面還可以再做更周延一點但是另外一方面"},{"start":4242.205,"end":4267.935,"text":"真的如果這個部分要進行處理還是可以送到監察院監察院有懲戒懲戒會那邊懲戒法院那邊做判定才可以剝奪他的公務人員的資格所以他是有不同的程序也不同的這個規定所以有的不知道說要面子、要衣服套路不是這樣是要判決之後在這幾十年來"},{"start":4275.221,"end":4280.309,"text":"我們可以保證國務院委員會的﹐到目前為止﹐到四個人而已"},{"start":4281.605,"end":4293.31,"text":"有兩千多案都有判決．不過就是說．他的考試要如何處理．如何處理．因為我委員會來自之前．我們知道之前．本身要如何做考試．要如何在場．我們的長官、主管．如果能夠鼓勵．有時候沒有款式的人．"},{"start":4307.608,"end":4319.757,"text":"每一屆到幾年要考試的選﹖不是說本來的人都要來考試﹖沒有本來經常請教來考試的﹖不是這樣﹖所以我希望你了解﹖新任在這個節目時﹖我們去管理好﹖因為是怎麼會考試的﹖就是論理時﹖他會覺得說﹖"},{"start":4337.332,"end":4358.613,"text":"他沒有背景：還有要照顧的：您的團委說要照顧的：要有人配合的：結果配合的都是：沒有款式：沒有主管：認真配合的人：所以我們：的父親：可以做好：還有保障："},{"start":4359.674,"end":4379.609,"text":"困難的人、臨時的人撈的條．不過在這最主要、最最主要的．就是我們的保證公務人員．的法律法的當中．你沒有保管．沒有好的公務人員．繼續押鉤在．"},{"start":4384.145,"end":4388.39,"text":"這公務人員這才是最差勁的、最嚴重的"},{"start":4392.302,"end":4414.98,"text":"我非常敬佩委員我是覺得行政機關就像一個大家庭大家應該有同理心讓自己的員工所屬都能夠像自己的家人自己的朋友、自己的夥伴大家一起為政府來做服務為民眾做服務所以這個部分我是覺得我會把委員的高見帶回去"},{"start":4416.801,"end":4436.767,"text":"考試院如果有這個機會的話跟他們多多討論怎麼樣建立一個比較好的一個制度讓我們的公務人員能夠在一個比較合理的對待環境裡面充分發揮他的能量因為我認為世代沒有人以前做公務人員說實在的大家都想說我們就覺得說可以考到我們也覺得很榮幸會做但是背景沒有人"},{"start":4445.806,"end":4460.912,"text":"環境也不一樣的時候有時候不是說大家都會覺得說人家Q、人家80、人家什麼但是我覺得那個制度要透明化、要做得好這是最重要的"},{"start":4463.514,"end":4480.149,"text":"在這裏面我再跟你討論一下我們的消防也好、健床也好有一個職業安全衛生法和公務人員有一個保障公務人員的款在這裏面有一個守護法現在這裏面有一個保護法我覺得在這裏面你認為"},{"start":4488.661,"end":4515.197,"text":"是怎樣我們的公務人員有甚麼做不到的應該要來成立這個工會嗎請你回答一下我想成立工會是一個選擇但是我們在成立工會有沒有其他的方式是可以來達到我們的目的比如說員工的福利他的工作環境的這個條件甚至他有一些爭議的時候怎麼處理這個"},{"start":4516.898,"end":4545.491,"text":"還有他的主管機關、上級主管機關怎麼要刻以他的責任這個部分能夠周詳的去考慮我覺得公會法當然是一種方式但是我們要考慮到公部門的一個公法之間的關係跟人民的安全福利的一個關係但是是不是現在送到大院來的協會法也是一個方式我覺得這兩個法之間應該大家來討論一下看看是用什麼樣的方式是比較合理的"},{"start":4546.192,"end":4573.442,"text":"因為這個法﹑我們公府法﹑就是有辦法去處理﹑有辦法去懲戒這是最重要的問題在這裏面 我覺得剛才本席就跟你說過了我們做考試院裏面的委員﹑就是抄議的黨派那未來你有帖子 你要給過關大家投票用台幣的時候 你想要賺"},{"start":4574.642,"end":4578.244,"text":"考試院來賓很想要做的事情：是否可以發表"},{"start":4583.24,"end":4605.454,"text":"我想這個到如果有機會到考試院我對這個考試制度的這個研究我是非常有興趣那因為每一個國家的制度不一樣我們常常講說新加坡、日本或哪裡的制度比較好但是它是不是適合在台灣因為台灣有不同的法的體制行政系統不太一樣這是一個我想要做的"},{"start":4605.854,"end":4625.362,"text":"另外當然國內有很多的很重大的政策比如說離岸風電、淨林碳排這些相關的這些技師們或者是專業人才怎麼去認證我覺得這一點也是非常重要因為這是牽涉到我們國家的永續發展也牽涉到我們國家的這個制度怎麼樣才讓這個真正的專業能夠發揮他的專長"},{"start":4629.864,"end":4656.867,"text":"所以類似這樣當然另外一方面因為我過去也參與一些國際的活動我覺得要爭取國家的權益非常重要就是對國際事務的關心所以涉外能力就是他對外的能力他對國際上參與其實非常重要就像我剛剛報告裡面提到的現在的這個全球塑膠公約這個可能會管理因為台灣的塑膠可能是百分之六、七十都是外銷的"},{"start":4657.768,"end":4680.125,"text":"所以會不會影響到我們的外貿所以這個跟國家的經濟發展非常有關係所以對高階公務人員：或者一般公務人員的：英文的能力：或者社外的能力：國際事務的關心我覺得這一點我會盡我的力量來協助考試院因為在這我認為你剛才的抱負來臨就是你的專業"},{"start":4683.7,"end":4695.725,"text":"因為你也真正擔任到我們的環保署的副署長所以聽你說這樣是很專業我常常說一句話沒分安逸、沒分黨派好的黨也有好的人才壞的黨也有好的人才所以好的人才"},{"start":4708.49,"end":4714.076,"text":"不管在你考到的時候都可以為國家做一些事情剛才你所說的那個禮典什麼我覺得非常對台灣來說非常重要所以要接種你的專業可以六個字"},{"start":4729.605,"end":4735.508,"text":"我希望你可以一一來協助﹐我們的政府的考試院﹐所有要做的東西﹐可以超越黨派﹐未來大家對你的家門﹐可以有這麼大﹐你我互相勉勵﹐"},{"start":4760.317,"end":4785.727,"text":"可以贏過這次的提名我也在這祝福你平安謝謝委員超然的立場跟支持謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝貝提名人下一位葉元芝委員還有范雲委員之質詢均以書面提出列入記錄刊登公報下一位請黃國昌委員詢問"},{"start":4805.002,"end":4831.189,"text":"謝謝副院長是不是麻煩有請被提名人邱教授請邱被提名人答詢委員好被提名人好我想為了便於溝通我就稱呼您邱老師這樣可能一直喊被提名人邱文彥先生也很拗口"},{"start":4832.639,"end":4856.485,"text":"我想邱老師過去不管是擔任公職擔任立法委員或者是在學校任教有你一定的reputation不過也請邱老師要能夠理解在立法院這個國會的殿堂你也擔任過立法委員立法委員最重要的工作就是要站在人民的立場來行使這個人事同意權"},{"start":4857.506,"end":4886.637,"text":"所以接下來的問題或許會有一些直接請您不要見怪這是一個立委該做的事情您擔任立委應該可以充分理解吧是的好來第一個事情您是不是支持在公務人員保障法裡面徵定反霸凌條款我們應該要去修改修訂考試院所制定的這些法律比如說是公務人員保障法"},{"start":4889.077,"end":4912.109,"text":"所以您知不支持我支持你支持嘛有一件事情我要藉由這個質詢的機會提醒邱老師如果有一天你有幸擔任考試委員的話不要犯相同的錯誤我為什麼說你如果有幸擔任考試委員不要犯相同的錯誤我那一天"},{"start":4913.517,"end":4936.025,"text":"請教我們的院長被提名人我說他支不支持在公務人員保障法裡面徵定反霸凌條款他馬上同意在行使同意權的場域當中他會說同意我一點都不驚訝但讓我驚訝的是什麼我完成了那一場同意權行使的詢答以後我回去查了考試"},{"start":4937.779,"end":4963.726,"text":"院、院會所有的紀錄我赫然發現2021年就有考試委員在考試院的院會提出來在公務機關霸凌的狀況我國的法制不夠應該要修改結果發生了什麼事情邱老師您知道嗎讓我震驚的事情是發生的事情就是什麼都沒發生"},{"start":4965.56,"end":4990.903,"text":"有考試委員在院會提出了這個問題要學術部處理學術部什麼都沒做2022年相同的問題再被考試院院會提出來討論要求保訓會處理結果保訓會還是什麼都沒做在2024年的今天"},{"start":4992.362,"end":5015.047,"text":"當整個台灣社會為了精誠的公務員被霸凌到選擇結束自己的生命整個社會都在哀傷都在憤怒的時候我必須要老實的講上一屆的考試院難辭其咎上一屆的考試院難辭其咎"},{"start":5016.141,"end":5038.153,"text":"沒有把他們該做的事情做好導致到2024年的時候我們竟然要在國會裡面透過人事同意權的審查來一一的請教你們支不支持在公務人員保障法裡面制定反霸凌條款這早就該做的事啊邱老師您認不認同我的說法"},{"start":5039.059,"end":5067.691,"text":"我想這個發生霸凌的事件是令人心痛的那這個部分既然以前的考試委員有提出來我覺得應該要追蹤應該要追蹤嘛我希望您回去考試院以後好好的追蹤問一下我們考試院的同仁當初為什麼2021年開始2022年開始搞到現在2024年什麼事都沒有做這是我對您的第一點期許跟要求"},{"start":5068.817,"end":5097.842,"text":"接下來你贊不贊成公務員納入職業安全衛生法這個兩個可能是不太一樣的體系所以你贊不贊成我覺得有保障法公務員要有保障法您知不知道職業安全衛生法跟公務員保障法這兩套規範規範的密度差別有多大"},{"start":5100.848,"end":5123.241,"text":"我對於職業安全衛生法並不是那麼的清楚我期許喔 被提名人你有機會當考試委員花一點時間去瞭解兩件事情第一件事情是職業安全衛生法的規範密度為什麼比我們公務人員保障法高這麼多為什麼因為它有罰則第二個為什麼這麼多公務員的團體"},{"start":5128.615,"end":5157.066,"text":"我們基層的警消希望把它納入職業安全衛生法因為公務人員保障法裡面的保障就不足嘛完全不足嘛才有這麼強烈的聲音嘛但問題是什麼為我們一般的民眾出生入死的打火弟兄們當他們看到一個一個弟兄犧牲了他們自己寶貴的生命發出怒吼的時候"},{"start":5158.015,"end":5164.961,"text":"我們的政府卻是無動於衷該做的事情一直都沒有做"},{"start":5166.172,"end":5191.555,"text":"好不容易在去年的時候當整個社會沸騰一場又一場的大火帶走了這麼多消防弟兄的生命他們本來要在凱道集結他們本來要在凱道抗議結果民進黨政府承諾他們我們會修法但是他們的期待又落空了一直到今年"},{"start":5194.161,"end":5211.581,"text":"這個會期我們的立法院沒有把他們納入職業安全衛生法我們把他納入消防法我們告訴這些打火的弟兄說我們在消防法裡面我們設置了一個專章"},{"start":5212.881,"end":5240.329,"text":"我們設置了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章為什麼要在消防法裡面設置安全衛生防護的專章就是因為等一下我們會討論到的事情是您另外一個任務就是因為現在公務人員保障體系的安慰辦法太糟糕了太糟糕了但是我們的政府又不願意把他們納入"},{"start":5242.282,"end":5270.672,"text":"職業安全衛生法裡面所以我們的政府承諾他們什麼承諾他們說我們在消防法裡面設了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章這件事情邱老師清楚嗎這個部分我必清楚那這個資訊可能要麻煩被提名人要再回去補足一下因為在整個公務人員保障法的體系裡面我們現在出現了雙軌"},{"start":5272.984,"end":5291.862,"text":"我為什麼說出現雙軌一般的公務人員是用安全衛生辦法但是我們對於消防弟兄我們給他希望能夠有更好的保護所以在消防法裡面設了消防人員安全衛生防護的專章"},{"start":5292.895,"end":5320.283,"text":"但是那個消防人員衛生防護的專章裡面他裡面所設置的什麼他裡面所設置的各種委員會他裡面所設置的防護小組追本溯源還是要回到公務人員保障法裡面那這個我必須要跟邱老師報告這些啦恐怕都是當一個考試委員要去掌握的基礎資訊"},{"start":5322.771,"end":5351.596,"text":"警消的權益必須要好好保護警消的權益必須要好好保護我想整個社會都認同但我們大家不認同的是什麼我們大家不認同的是當現在的這個政府一再的欺騙一再的拖延我們要這些警消的同仁繼續冒險犯難犧牲生命到什麼時候我為什麼說一再的欺騙一再的拖延"},{"start":5352.622,"end":5381.578,"text":"您知道我們立法院在11月12號所修正的消防法我們的總統今天此時此刻今天公告了今天公告了消防法的修正條文但是被提名的你知道嗎我們剛剛所講的消防人員安全衛生防護的專章你知不知道"},{"start":5382.765,"end":5408.099,"text":"開始施行了沒有我跟您報告我們消防人員安全衛生防護的專章我們的立法院當初希望給我們的行政機關方便我相信絕大多數的立委沒想到我們給他們方便他們當隨便"},{"start":5410.12,"end":5438.043,"text":"為什麼我說給他們方便他們當隨意便我這個禮拜我在立法院召開了公聽會這個公聽會的重點就是怎麼強化對於我們警察對於我們消防同仁的保障那場公聽會我直接請教消防署派來的代表說我們現在三讀修正通過也就是今天總統公告"},{"start":5439.192,"end":5465.55,"text":"要施行的消防法裡面的消防人員安全衛生防護專章當初立法院授權施行日期由行政院決定您知不知道他們決定施行日期什麼時候才要開始施行我跟邱老師說明五年以後五年以後邱老師您覺得"},{"start":5467.177,"end":5489.827,"text":"這樣的行政院有負起他該負起的責任嗎我想這個施行日期的制定他可能行政機關會有他的考慮但是警消行政機關有他的考慮那我們第一線的消防弟兄勒警消的生命非常的重要所以我覺得這個部分應該要加速應該要加速我希望"},{"start":5492.11,"end":5512.632,"text":"你的聲音我們大家今天的聲音我們行政院院長卓榮泰都會聽到因為如果行政院院長卓榮泰不好好承諾我們立法院三讀通過的針對消防人員安全衛生的防護專章的條文"},{"start":5513.669,"end":5542.604,"text":"既然五年以後才要施行我們這些立法委員修這個消防法的立法委員恐怕都已經不在立法院了施行日期給他們定我們的行政院可以這樣幹我們的行政院可以這樣幹但為什麼這個跟考試院會有關係邱老師你一定或許心裡面會覺得有點納悶"},{"start":5544.568,"end":5572.218,"text":"我是要當考試委員我們的行政院消防法裡面針對於我們打火英雄安全衛生防護的專章他們目前的計畫要五年以後才施行跟你有什麼關係我跟你直接報告為什麼會跟你們有關係當這個專章在正式施行以前針對有關於消防人員的安全防護請問要適用什麼辦法"},{"start":5575.244,"end":5598.409,"text":"公務人員保障法19條寫得非常抽象沒有辦法具體的落實沒有辦法具體的實踐也沒有定任何的罰則公務人員保障法19條如果有用的話我們今天沒有必要站在這邊討論這個問題"},{"start":5600.863,"end":5626.729,"text":"問題在哪裡在公務委員保障法下面所授權的定定的是公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法您知道這個辦法幾年沒有修了嗎十年沒有修了在過去這十年的時間當中啊台灣的公民社會各式各樣我們錦霄的同仁"},{"start":5628.001,"end":5654.395,"text":"要求要修安全衛生防護辦法我第一次在立法院服務的時候2018年那時候發生了大火很多消防弟兄走了我們行政院人事總處我們考試院的保訓會在那一屆的國會承諾要求安慰辦法現在已經是2024年"},{"start":5656.548,"end":5678.071,"text":"從第9屆的國會到第11屆的國會安慰辦法一條都沒有修過掌管安慰辦法修訂的是哪一個機關邱老師知道嗎是哪一個機關掌管這個安慰辦法的修訂應該是群聚部吧"},{"start":5680.58,"end":5708.001,"text":"是保訓會沒有關係啊但是保訓會通過的安慰辦法最後還是要誰通過考試院院會嘛所以考試委員責任重大不是只有考試還有公務員的保障我們的考試院從2018年到2024年自己可以修的安慰辦法"},{"start":5708.854,"end":5736.46,"text":"不需要透過立法院立法院早就授權了可以整整十年沒有修邱老師你可以接受嗎我想委員的關切如果有這個機會我會盡量協助考試院的同仁盡快把他的法律修訂好我希望你如果出任考試委員不是只有協助考試院的同仁恕我直言強力要求"},{"start":5738.227,"end":5765.885,"text":"強力要求考試院的怠惰過去這幾年所釀成的悲劇從安慰辦法下面的消防人員到公務人員保障法下面職場受霸凌的公務員這不是都是活生生血淋淋的例子嗎考試委員重不重要在現行的體制下他當然重要消極的不作為對社會所造成的創傷"},{"start":5769.521,"end":5791.891,"text":"決心斑斑的例子不都在我們眼前嗎是的我現在在給你機會展現決心我想這個委員的關心我不但是會帶回去如果有這個機會的話我也會盡我最大的力量來督促他們目前的安慰辦法最大的問題"},{"start":5793.55,"end":5820.044,"text":"是完全沒有發責剛剛您在回答我的問題的時候我聽你說出來了代表你有用心有做基本的功課再下一個關鍵的問題我們的保訓會我們的考試院花了納稅人的錢找了台大的教授做了研究報告在2021年的時候就已經告訴我們考試院了"},{"start":5821.457,"end":5850.377,"text":"這個安慰辦法沒有罰則根本沒有用你贊不贊成修改公務人員保障法增訂罰則這個在我們院長的被提名人他有做出這個宣誓就是我們將來會盡快來提出保障法的這個修正案盡快多久我記得他承諾是下個會期就要提出來下個會期都要提出來"},{"start":5851.417,"end":5879.492,"text":"所以如果你也進入考試院的話你會配合一起完成這個承諾是嗎我會盡力從2002年開始我們的國家的考機制度大概一直延續到現在甲等75%乙等大概25%丙等鳳毛麟角丁等非常罕見"},{"start":5880.523,"end":5906.433,"text":"整個大的picture是這個樣子針對現行的考機制度假等的人數比例不可以超過75%您覺得合理嗎這個有非常多的討論歷年來曾經也有調整過我知道相關的討論我都拜讀過了我沒有要考邱老師我直接問你的立場你認為合不合理我覺得這個部分是可以討論的"},{"start":5909.768,"end":5936.465,"text":"當然可以討論也討論了非常久我現在在請教你的立場你認為合不合理我還是覺得說這個部分是應該要大家有個共識因為很多的情況每個機關的這個負擔的程度其實不太一樣75%是不是過於僵化是不是在追求形式上面的公平這個是大家質疑的第一件事"},{"start":5937.54,"end":5963.821,"text":"但我要告訴邱老師跟您報告的是啊這已經不僅僅是不是只有形式公平的問題啊這可能造成了連形式上面的公平都做不到為什麼我這樣講來看一下我從2017年開始追蹤嘉義餅丁嘉義餅公務人考機的制度來看一下結果"},{"start":5964.939,"end":5990.378,"text":"檢任的家等以上超過95%建任的家等以上82%委任的最低階的公務員差不多才是到75%他出現了一個很清楚的圖像關接越高啊家等比例越高啊被提名的人覺得公平嗎"},{"start":5992.039,"end":6020.61,"text":"很多這個評論都是提到說考機是不是只講高官所以我想這個部分其實是我們要仔細的去面對目前的考機制度跟我們的文官體系它可能存在兩個最大的問題一個是勞役不均一個是這樣的考機的結果我希望你有機會到考試院服務要大刀拓斧的改革可以嗎是好 謝謝"},{"start":6021.633,"end":6050.99,"text":"好謝謝黃委員謝謝被提名人下一位請蔡育宇委員詢問謝謝主席那是有請我們被提名人邱被提名人被提名人請答詢"},{"start":6054.558,"end":6054.864,"text":"蔡委員好"},{"start":6056.559,"end":6084.807,"text":"邱委員、邱老師很高興可以在考試委員的審查會我相信可以就幾個議題可以跟邱老師來探討我們知道邱老師本身是工程背景工程背景事實上也會讓我們發現在基層普遍在反映的一件事情就是基層公務員工程背景的人留不住人才"},{"start":6086.369,"end":6103.807,"text":"這個留不住人才有蠻多因素的首先在任何機關不管是中央機關或是地方機關尤其越基層的機關在三級政府的鄉鎮公所幾乎是留不住包括土木包括工程類的人才"},{"start":6104.648,"end":6132.613,"text":"那這主要也是來自於說第一個他們的工作辛苦第二個他們本身在工作上附帶的風險高第三個如果這些人才他們到民間他們會有更好的待遇所以變成在於這些人留在公務系統替我們政府來做事的意願是不高的所以我想要請教邱老師你對這一塊未來你當考試委員後你會有怎樣的一個具體的主張嗎"},{"start":6134.146,"end":6152.031,"text":"謝謝蔡委員我想這個工程類科的缺額其實是非常明顯的像去年的話大概缺了130幾位建築的話 我講的是土木建築的話大概是缺了11位所以缺額的情況是非常清楚的"},{"start":6152.671,"end":6178.065,"text":"但是由他的能不能留任跟他的大環境是有關係跟我們的大環境有關係外面的這個待遇施部門的待遇可能比公務員好一點所以這個是整個經濟環境的一個狀況那考試院這邊我看到相關的資料他們是希望說也可能從私人部門也能夠讓專機人員轉任公務員這是一個應急之道"},{"start":6179.025,"end":6206.487,"text":"但是另外一方面在考試方面是不是讓這個工程類科的人他將來在找工作的時候能夠切合這個用人機關的一個需求所以這個部分的溝通其實是非常重要我們準考試委員我想跟你分享一下因為我看到好多基層的這個工程界的第一個他們不想留在工程單位"},{"start":6207.256,"end":6224.992,"text":"他們在工程單位他們盡量會去爭取去調到非實際工程單位這是第一個我覺得比較麻煩的第二個就是說他們在公務員任職期間他們會盡量去考計師只要一旦他們有民間的計師的牌照他們就離開公務系統這個非常的"},{"start":6227.182,"end":6247.064,"text":"可惜啦 因為我覺得我們最近有這麼多的預算包括這幾年的前瞻預算以及公務預算我們在投資這些工件的一些計畫的時候基本上都是需要這些基層的公務員他們在第一線不管是在做工程的設計或者是事後工程的把關都是需要他們"},{"start":6248.025,"end":6263.871,"text":"那當然今年8月1號我看到行政院有公布一個命令就是針對工程人才無法留在公務系統他們有做幾個是用獎金包括要用專業家籍專業家籍說你實際從事公務我就每個月給你三千塊"},{"start":6264.791,"end":6291.096,"text":"包括說我給你留任獎金留任獎金就是分第一年、第三年、第五年那就給他三萬塊、四萬五跟六萬這年底給就是說他希望把他的配他的薪資待遇拉高然後來促使這些人是希望他留在公務但是我覺得這個火候還是不夠啊力道還是不夠因為我相信真正這些好的人才他在民間一定會有更好的待遇"},{"start":6291.704,"end":6304.005,"text":"所以這部分涉及到了整個這些優秀的人才而且他實際上從事公務我覺得最基本的還是待遇不足的問題那我想"},{"start":6305.115,"end":6323.943,"text":"就教一下我們被提名人就這樣你覺得好的人才到底要怎麼樣才讓他可以留在我們的公務系統呢我的確是看到一個很重要的議題現在在外面缺工的情況是非常嚴重那當然公司部門的待遇的相互競爭也是一個議題"},{"start":6325.203,"end":6350.556,"text":"我看到像學校因為我過去在學校服務學校裡面有所謂的彈性薪資彈性薪資意思就是說我有一個專案的計畫我們可以把這個經費調整調整以後它就會超過了它現在的本質的經費這個薪資甚至有些薪資大學教授可能高過於部會所長"},{"start":6351.656,"end":6364.848,"text":"所以這種情況也是有的所以我的意思是說我非常贊同委員的看法在薪資結構方面的調整有沒有更大的一個彈性甚至運用一些專案計畫的一個經費來做這個挹注對 所以我是覺得這個檢討起來就專業人員我們不要讓他的專業讓他平庸化"},{"start":6375.775,"end":6394.433,"text":"這個專案值得多少政府應該要給他的薪水就應該要盡量拉高這是我一個主張我希望未來您當選考試委員後你也可以支持這些基層的工程人員可以嗎"},{"start":6395.009,"end":6396.491,"text":"台灣考試院在教考訓用一條邊"},{"start":6409.355,"end":6431.732,"text":"一條邊的方式當然這個也是跟一條邊的方式就是由考試院來尋找人才以及做人才上如何去發配到各機關去這是一條邊的一個方式但是在於我們鄰近的國家日本跟韓國他不是用這樣的方式他是直接由選才機關"},{"start":6433.705,"end":6455.388,"text":"選才之官自己辦考試然後自己去面試他想要的人這樣是兩條不同的形式那我想要請教我們被提名人你對於這樣兩個形式基本上你認為我們現在的方法會優於日韓嗎還是日韓有它的優點"},{"start":6456.764,"end":6482.099,"text":"跟委員報告我們公務人員的體制文官受到保障或者是他的臨用其實是憲法的一個架構之下所以公務人員要進來的話他必須經過國家的考試但是國外確實是有很多的一些測驗的機構或者民間機構來做選擇甚至他考試的時候可能分階段第一個可能是基本考基本類科的考試"},{"start":6482.719,"end":6487.202,"text":"Iwan NawiIwan NawiIwan NawiIwan Nawi"},{"start":6508.796,"end":6518.987,"text":"被提名了你也不排斥說未來我們打破一條邊讓各機關可以他們自行去臨選不管是他們自行召辦考試、自行去面試、去找他們要來臨載"},{"start":6523.445,"end":6544.64,"text":"這一條選材方式你認為也不用去排斥就對了我覺得長期來看是可以來討論可以來考慮但是現在的情況就是說以公務人員的體系來或許跟用人機關之間有更密切的一個聯繫我覺得這個部分是可以在現在就可以來進行但是未來剛剛委員關心的這個部分"},{"start":6545.2,"end":6573.2,"text":"是不是兩個軌道這個方式這是比較涉及到長期的一個制度性的問題所以我想我們我會把這個意見請教我們的考試院同仁來進行更縝密的一個研究好那再來就叫一個就是關於這個商調的因為現在很多機關事實上在公務員事實上常常遇到商調的時候要原機關同意"},{"start":6573.905,"end":6591.602,"text":"那很多公務員礙於沒有辦法取得原機關的同意他可能會做一件事他重新考因為我沒辦法調到其他的機關我重考我重考然後再想辦法分發到其他的一個機關那我認為說基本上"},{"start":6593.815,"end":6621.452,"text":"這樣的一個方式變得說他對於公務員的商調相對沒有彈性他就是卡在原機關同意甚至我們之前有在爭取就是說你公務員他有1到3歲的子女要養的時候我們盡量讓他擴大他的彈性可以到他以救養、撫養小孩子方便的地方來做他公務機關的一個任職但是還是原機關要同意"},{"start":6622.498,"end":6641.191,"text":"所以這個原機關同意這件事就造成了公務員他們流動的一個困難那我想要請教貝琴你上任後就這樣一個商調的現行的規定有可能來做你的主張來做一些修正或者是你的看法呢"},{"start":6642.527,"end":6660.109,"text":"我想我這個部分會把委員的意見帶回去讓我們考試院來做一個討論特別是這個部分剛剛提到是非常實際的問題例如說有很多的育嬰假的他要請假或是他要上吊的時候他必須經過原機關同意但是原機關可能就沒辦法同意"},{"start":6661.009,"end":6685.504,"text":"這讓他就非常的困難只好另謀出路但是這個部分是牽涉到未來這個國內的人員這個資源人才庫怎麼樣建立一個比較完善的一個流用的一個制度或者是將來跟護調的一個方式我想這個涉及到整個人才庫的一個建立委員的這個關心我會把它帶回去"},{"start":6686.144,"end":6715.789,"text":"因為未來如果你當選後考試委員畢竟就是跟公務員就是要站在一起嘛所以未來也許你的立場會跟立法院不一樣可是我期待的考試委員應該要更站在公務人員的一個立場把公務人員的心聲把他帶出來那讓我們在未來我們立法院在立法的時候可以聽到你們替公務人員發聲然後我們來來修法修的也許讓他更有彈性或者是讓公務員更可以符合他們在"},{"start":6716.249,"end":6745.301,"text":"在任職的時候的一個比較好的一個福祉的環境還有我剛剛有講到的考試的一個問題公務員考試雖然公務員考試很多機關事實上還是有所謂的體能考試那我常常遇到遇到那種就是筆試過了結果就卡在這個體能的一個測試尤其是像在拉單槓或者是百米的跑步或者是立定跳遠"},{"start":6747.123,"end":6761.335,"text":"有時候就差一點點差一點點 變成他那一次的比試就沒了未來要再重考他就要把時間再繼續耗在他的準備考試上"},{"start":6762.671,"end":6787.479,"text":"那我覺得這件事也有它不合理的地方就是說既然我筆試已經過了那為什麼我這個筆試不能仿照像會計師他有做保留的幾年因為他是差在體試那結果就等於說他要把他的時間耗在準備考試身上對 所以我想要請教這部分我們被提名人"},{"start":6789.215,"end":6808.549,"text":"在這部分我想這個考試資格的保留跟未來的像體能訓練的這個部分是不是可以有一個比較彈性的一個處理這其實是應該要討論的那我是覺得這個部分我會把這個意見帶回去讓我們同仁一起來研究"},{"start":6809.93,"end":6823.932,"text":"基本上呢如果我們回歸到憲法的規定這些憲法的規定就是公務人員政府不應該歧視任何的一個種族啊或者是一個人一個族群嘛所以在公平的這個倒也不是歧視這個是變成說"},{"start":6825.574,"end":6825.974,"text":"我講的意思就是說"},{"start":6845.902,"end":6867.662,"text":"因為卡在體能這個因素造成他的筆試無效要等來年再來一次我覺得這件事情是有檢討的空間那我也希望說你不只是要把他帶回去而已你們應該考試委員嘛你們可以有你們的一個見解很多事情我知道要特別修緩不過本來這個就是"},{"start":6871.405,"end":6896.763,"text":"現在五權分立的一個架構之下那考試委員我希望就是說可以聽取民意的考試委員可以接地氣的大家的意見你如果收集起來你覺得要怎麼去修法你們事實上還是有你們可以提出修法的建議嘛然後由我們立法院這邊看大家就修法這邊來交換意見我希望考試委員可以多一點"},{"start":6897.863,"end":6916.971,"text":"主張認為說應該哪部分要調整那就應該要替這些公務員來做主張以及這些參加考試的人我想這個在未來的考試規則裡面我們再仔細的去思考有沒有其他比較彈性的一個做法或者是說比較合理的一個處置"},{"start":6919.608,"end":6942.957,"text":"最後我想請教貝提銘人因為貝提銘人你的自傳裡面你也強調說國家考試為國舉財那事實上你的專業是在海洋領域這一塊那你在海洋領域裡面有很多的一些你的主張跟見解那看起來現在台灣"},{"start":6947.12,"end":6973.356,"text":"賴清德在520就職的演說有確認三個國家方向其中一個就是探索海洋就是要把台灣是一個海洋國家我們台灣的人民是海洋的公民擁有海洋文化的DNA那所以如何讓台灣跟海洋是親近的那尤其未來我們知道包括在於這一個探會裡面其中燃炭的部分就是在強調這個"},{"start":6975.49,"end":6989.013,"text":"海洋要怎麼樣 未來造就了這些碳匯的價值或者是我們台灣因為過去海禁 我們跟海的距離太遠那未來我們要怎麼親近海洋"},{"start":6990.374,"end":7010.969,"text":"那這部分是不是有辦法從公務體系公務人員的一個訓練開始讓這個公務體系是可以更親近海洋的我想請教一下被提名人你有怎樣的報復讓你的對於台灣要親近海洋這個主張可以在你任職考試委員的時候讓他有更有發揮嗎"},{"start":7013.449,"end":7031.586,"text":"我以澳洲的海洋政策白皮書提出三個願景一個叫做Understanding前面叫做CaringUnderstanding Use Advisory就是我們關心海洋"},{"start":7032.327,"end":7056.935,"text":"但是我們也要了解海洋然後再來是永續的利用海洋所以這個部分臺灣有那麼多的海洋資源而且我們是以海為生的一個國家包括我們的漁業、遠洋漁業、貿易包括我們的航運等等其實還包括我們現在談到這個近年碳排的時候燃炭的一個部分到底怎麼處理我覺得這個教育非常重要當然這裡面不是說每一個部位都各出各的"},{"start":7057.435,"end":7083.442,"text":"所以現在正在修訂的這個叫做國家海洋政策白皮書它就是一個統整的一個方向希望各個部會都能一起來做不管是科研的、我們的產業的發展還有包括我們的這個將來的資源的一個分配那最重要的就是環境的教育、海洋的教育所以我想這個部分應該可以來大力的來推動那當然很重要就是說親海愛海"},{"start":7084.642,"end":7110.985,"text":"你必須要讓民眾接見海洋所以海岸的安全性它相關的設施它的相關的教育甚至跟地方上社區、學校、大學的結合這一點就非常的重要所以我想如果從這個方面一方面讓我們民眾來瞭解海洋、探索海洋但是更重要就是說我們追求我們相關的一些發展的機會讓國家能夠更為富強"},{"start":7111.943,"end":7137.301,"text":"那被提名有可能把海洋領域的一些專業知識．或者是一些對海洋的瞭解．有可能未來成為考試的命題嗎這個在海洋行政類科裡面．它又分為幾個考試的科目．那事實上我看過他們過去的這些考題．都有這方面的知識．包括海洋科學基礎的東西"},{"start":7138.237,"end":7166.967,"text":"海洋科普的東西海洋政策的東西都有在這裡面所以我想以後應該考試院這邊會繼續加強這個部分就我還想跟北京朋友們分享以我的看法現在的公務人員對於海洋基本上還是保守甚至抗拒當然有例外就是海巡可能他們就親近海了嘛海委會當然他們就是以海為主但是我跟你分享的就是說你知道像農業部"},{"start":7168.763,"end":7192.371,"text":"同業部好幾千億的預算那其中關於漁業署多少預算你知道嗎我直接跟你說因為這個就100億而已三四千億的預算漁業署只有100億那這是為什麼就是因為不重視少了關心我相信署長你對海洋這麼認識你覺得台灣有幾個漁港是會看一看"},{"start":7197.705,"end":7219.314,"text":"我們去台灣看每一個國家市長漁港漁港就是這個都市發展就是大概從港區開始往內陸發展結果台灣不一樣台灣是越走到港越破敗人口越老化越凋零然後那裡都沒有整修甚至你說我們的漁港有郵載可能一定一個郵載是十幾年前的事情後來就不用郵載過了"},{"start":7222.515,"end":7241.214,"text":"所以現在那些漁港都充滿著這個被海浪衝擊然後造成的那些污漬都在那個牆壁上然後也沒有去整理我覺得這一個依北京沒有你對海洋的瞭解我們對於沿海地區的漁港它就是長這個樣"},{"start":7242.557,"end":7267.143,"text":"那這是為什麼呢就是公務員他的本質心態並沒有覺得漁港的一個美麗才是代表台灣這個海洋國家的一個美的一個開始沒有這樣的心態我覺得很可惜好謝謝蔡委員謝謝邱備提名人接下來請楊瓊英委員詢問"},{"start":7282.935,"end":7291.947,"text":"謝謝院會主席、江副院長、被提名者以及新聞界的朋友、各位同仁、楊瓊瑜發言首先邀請提名者請求被提名人"},{"start":7300.268,"end":7315.287,"text":"首先我們來針對於職場霸凌的防治機制我們來做討論因為你也是在環保方面海洋方面非常的專精那同時也擔任過我們的部分區的這個立委"},{"start":7315.948,"end":7331.757,"text":"所以在民意跟專業領域當面都有加成的作用但是你現在是被提名為考試委員所以也針對於在職場霸凌的這個部分我認為必須要首一的課題來跟你一起討論"},{"start":7333.178,"end":7355.437,"text":"所以你認為現行的公務體系是不是它能夠有效的來防止職場霸凌在目前的機制那麼未來你認為還有什麼樣的建言什麼樣的相關規範可以來協助讓這個職場能夠更加的友善更加的安全那同時"},{"start":7356.118,"end":7356.458,"text":"請做說明"},{"start":7370.286,"end":7386.197,"text":"謝謝委員隨選我想這個發生霸凌事件那顯然就是我們的機制有所不足這是令人心痛的一件事情但是以考試院來說當然我們有公務人員的保障法"},{"start":7386.817,"end":7387.917,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7403.463,"end":7407.965,"text":"Iwan Nawi、Iwan Nawi、Iwan Nawi"},{"start":7427.634,"end":7428.354,"text":"Iwan Nawi"},{"start":7451.647,"end":7473.519,"text":"讓職場的人員有所安全感尤其在公職方面所以你也誠懇地回答出是有改善跟討論的一個空間我們也希望也就是如果設置一個獨立的申訴機制你認為有沒有這個必要性"},{"start":7475.286,"end":7496.569,"text":"這個獨立的機制事實上依照我們現在的現行機制比如說我們這個保障法裡面我們可以透過一個程序比如說附審、申訴、代申訴但是在體制內或者體制外是不是還要一個考量我想今天應該是戴總統也有提到"},{"start":7497.17,"end":7525.573,"text":"就是將來是不是在院級有一個專責的通報系統類似這個當然這個部分還是一個初步的構想我想我們還是需要來討論一下看看用什麼樣的方式避免所謂的關關相互或者是他的下情不能上達的情況所以我想這個制度的建立需要更審慎一點但是就應了您剛剛所說的也就是避免關關相互"},{"start":7526.834,"end":7527.494,"text":"我希望能夠好好地去探討"},{"start":7554.786,"end":7581.16,"text":"這個制度怎麼樣讓它更完整那你應該認同這樣的一個方向吧認同因為國內的其實各機關的這個機能能夠發揮充分發揮是非常重要全國有將近7000個行政機關有這麼多的機關這個部分其實是應該各自扮演好的角色但是那個總體的機制怎麼樣建立這是大家應該共同思考"},{"start":7581.802,"end":7608.975,"text":"7000多個機關的確必須要好好的去整治那尤其最近沸沸揚揚這些事件我想這不是一個有違的政府民主政治裡頭政府應該會有產生這樣的現象這是不應當的而且是全民撻伐的所以我們既然有這個共識我們繼續來討論也就是針對在基層的公務人員的特別保護在基層的這一環"},{"start":7610.316,"end":7626.604,"text":"因為基層人員他因為職位相對的一個弱勢那他很容易去成為職場的被霸凌的這個受害者在這樣的情況之下你認為在保護基層人員方面也是不是應該"},{"start":7627.805,"end":7648.969,"text":"要讓他有怎麼樣申訴的管道讓他有可以敢講出來而且沒有關關相護而且沒有基上瞞下的這個情況是不是應該要設置特別的這個措施來針對於基層的公務人員這些比較相對弱勢者請做說明"},{"start":7652.069,"end":7670.926,"text":"過去行政院也有希望各個機關訂定員工協助方案包括心理諮商、意見抒發等等事實上我們辦法好像是蠻多的方案也有所以這個到底績效如何我覺得這應該是要做一個重體的檢討"},{"start":7675.51,"end":7690.258,"text":"至於說過去考試院這邊訂定公務人員的安全保衛生防護辦法基本上它是比較因為過去訂定的時候考量的問題可能比較單純一點"},{"start":7692.379,"end":7692.94,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":7720.973,"end":7746.699,"text":"學生在學校有授課權那最重要的不只是只有知識﹑而且要保護他們的身心健康這一點非常的重要那所以因此在我們整個公務人員的基層這個最基層的公教的這一塊本身也希望能夠好好的去琢磨讓他們不是成為是弱勢者不是成為最容易被霸凌者我們應該好好的保護他們讓他發揮所長 對不對是的"},{"start":7748.88,"end":7751.506,"text":"超越黨派的具體實踐考試委員的職責應該要超越黨派"},{"start":7763.39,"end":7782.036,"text":"在你行使這個職權當中,你要怎麼樣維持中立,避免政黨的影響?你是不是有什麼樣的具體思維跟做法?我想任何一個公務員要維持這個中立"},{"start":7782.876,"end":7812.042,"text":"那麼因為公務人員有個這個叫做行政中立法所以它裡面有相當多的規定跟這個政黨之間的互動關係應該是保持上什麼樣的分際這裡面有相當的規範所以我想一般來談就是對於這個行政中立法的這個落實這個遵守其實非常重要但另外一方面以個人來講我沒有什麼太明顯的什麼政治色彩"},{"start":7813.182,"end":7840.274,"text":"因為我覺得我們學海洋的人你看到海洋有藍有綠其實是跟你的水的深度、地形、光線的擇色有關係但是你把海水撈起來是沒有顏色的所以我一向秉持的觀念就是國家的事務其實是大家的事務不應該有任何黨派的思維但是黨派的政黨的一個想法可能有他的理想我們應該要尊重"},{"start":7842.733,"end":7871.413,"text":"這個回答是平穩的回答但是我們的社會面向覺得歪樓的還是有所以本席會特別提出雖然我們有行政中立法但是重點是在能不能落實之所以本席也希望就誠如你所說的這個考試委員是要超越黨派為國家做事所以本席要跟你討論一個實質上的問題您接受"},{"start":7872.253,"end":7895.025,"text":"提名的理由是什麼呢因為也有人質疑你在黨內你現在還是國民黨的身份吧在黨內並沒有依照黨章就是事先的來報備但是你的提名似乎是跟你自己的學術專業背景或者是你的個人價值觀是不是有更深"},{"start":7899.086,"end":7924.058,"text":"本席願意讓你說明你接受提名的關鍵考量是什麼呢關鍵考量就是希望因為我曾經在政府機關服務過也在立法機關服務過我認為我們從事公職應該就是要超脫黨派為全國民眾服務但是這個事情的申請或者是辦理其實我是依照"},{"start":7926.019,"end":7946.596,"text":"總統府秘書長在3月5日他行文給全國150所的大學院校他提出來希望是廣徵各方的人才所以我非常單純的就是從這個管道當時我並不清楚說有什麼政黨推薦的要經過這個黨章的規定我完全不知道"},{"start":7947.757,"end":7973.236,"text":"我的理想非常的簡單就是依照憲法88條的規定超脫黨派之外獨立行使職權所以這個部分完全沒有想過怎麼樣去要通過黨的規定或者是說他的推薦但是在我離開因為記者會一結束我立刻聯絡了黃建廷秘書長"},{"start":7976.161,"end":7989.629,"text":"我作為一個黨員我當然碰到這事情一定要向黨中央報告所以我在第一時間1點鐘的時候我就跟他聯繫3點鐘的時候獲得他的回答要我在"},{"start":7990.009,"end":7994.352,"text":"Iwan Nawi為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．"},{"start":8014.159,"end":8034.279,"text":"我從小就是從年輕就是做一個公務人員我也知道有一些經驗我能不能把這個經驗傳承甚至能夠協助政府的制度建立讓我們的文官制度能夠獲得更好的鞏固甚至保障我們的公務人員的權益基本上是想得非常單純"},{"start":8036.102,"end":8059.28,"text":"這麼多時間願意讓你說明也就是外面的質疑當然你現在的回答是說因為你不知道有這些黨章的規定所以你也不是不禮貌本席可以如此解讀嗎是那所以呢本席還是要再請教您接受提名的關鍵考量除了你剛剛說的從3月份開始這個徵詢"},{"start":8064.864,"end":8070.214,"text":"一直到最後你決定接受最重要的關鍵考量到底是什麼"},{"start":8071.67,"end":8095.192,"text":"事實上這個整個審見的作業是到最後的時候我們才知道因為我們都不清楚這個過程當中到底你有沒有被提名所以直到他真正公佈的時候我才知道還有其他人哪些人所以這些的委員我還是提名因為公佈之後你就知道你有沒有被提名所以本席要請教當你"},{"start":8095.953,"end":8117.132,"text":"公布要被提名了那你同意或者不同意的時候你的關鍵選擇了同意那你的最關鍵的考量到底是什麼最關鍵的考量還是希望說我們在海洋跟環境方面的領域能夠繼續進行下去來做進一步的人才的培育比如說海洋跟什麼呢海洋跟環境"},{"start":8117.759,"end":8137.366,"text":"海洋跟環境就你的本專專業的部分因為我發現在這個部分比如說委員非常關心像永續發展的部分像國土計畫那比如說未來的這個都市計畫基石、估價石還有這個地震室是不是在這個部分它在國土計畫上面"},{"start":8138.486,"end":8143.609,"text":"Iwan Nawi主席Iwan Nawi主席Iwan Nawi主席"},{"start":8167.603,"end":8194.742,"text":"因為現在的考試委員只有7個人所以其實是領域就缺了我們這個部分我們一直聲稱我們是一個海洋的國家是一個環保的立國或是立憲的這個理念就像委員對這個中火的這個關心等等都是環境問題非常的重要但是要有人幫他去思考讓到我們的人才的培育選拔的時候能夠真正適合台灣"},{"start":8195.302,"end":8195.482,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":8211.375,"end":8211.956,"text":"Iwan Nawi"},{"start":8229.249,"end":8248.274,"text":"希望他公告的時間是到明年的4月份要執行本席也提案希望能夠延後兩年就是在整個相關的配套必須要完整才上路讓我們所有的基層大家都能夠安心這是目前的氛圍"},{"start":8248.974,"end":8266.555,"text":"我相信你剛才提到這個也看到目前社會的面向的一個需求所以本縣希望能夠提供真正有所改革有所需求去結合社會的需要以及達到國家最高的利益這是非常重要的一環"},{"start":8270.179,"end":8283.97,"text":"在我們考試院在政府的體系當中我們這些的職長跟功能那對於考試院在政府體系的功能大家似乎現在覺得說那你考試院到底在做什麼"},{"start":8285.271,"end":8299.428,"text":"甚至還有說考試院到底要廢不廢還有這個聲音出來當一個機關如果被討論到純廢的問題那這個政府是真的要大大的改革大大的檢討"},{"start":8300.749,"end":8315.403,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教我們考試院的功能建議因為現在已經有提到存廢問題考試院的功能建議就你的看法你有什麼樣的建議"},{"start":8318.122,"end":8341.872,"text":"考試院是最重要的一個憲政機關也就是當時是依照我們孫中山先生的一個理想提出來所以當時會把考試院單獨拉出來是希望不要私自用人變成濫用人才濫用自己的人才是希望達到公平正義的一個角度才會有五院的這個想法特別是考試院獨立出來"},{"start":8342.692,"end":8365.345,"text":"當然現在有些的業務比如說人事行政總署等等它也有負擔一部分的訓練在職訓練的一個部分但是我們還是認為說在現在的體制之下現在的憲政體制之下除非是修憲修憲當然我們就到最後看社會的共識跟國會的一個決定對你本身的看法呢"},{"start":8366.015,"end":8381.525,"text":"我本身的看法我是認為說不管將來的這個考試院他是併不併或者是廢不廢其實非常重要的我們看國外的一個例子就是人事人才的這個選拔必須具有獨立性"},{"start":8382.777,"end":8411.514,"text":"要不要獨立選否則的話就是濫用私人那我覺得這個部分還是要當然另外一方面我們人才的選拔必須要有品質所以這個合格的一個人員到底怎麼領選考試的辦法是怎麼樣也有跟用人機關之間的關係又是怎麼樣這些都是要通盤的考慮所以我對廢不廢的考試院我其實我完全尊重國會的這個決定假設最後是完全尊重什麼"},{"start":8412.754,"end":8428.203,"text":"國會最後的這個決定因為這涉及到修憲但是我基本上我還是認為說考試院還是要盡可能維持他的人事權的獨立還好你最後補上這一句話不然真的會讓我嚇一跳"},{"start":8429.485,"end":8452.491,"text":"因為你今天是被提名的考試委員那麼對於我們整個人才的一個培訓全世界最重要的也就是人才的培訓這是無上的一個資產所以我們仍舊希望讓我們我們台灣人每一位都是非常的有能力而且以往考上了公家可以說是整個正在籌碼做"},{"start":8453.611,"end":8476.23,"text":"是整個家族之光啊但是我真就非常的希望一個有為的政府如果人民是信賴公務人員這個國家才能夠成長但是現在的氛圍不盡然所以我非常的希望讓我們的公務人員恢復我們的榮耀恢復我們友善的職場讓他們能夠盡情的揮灑盡情的去發揮這個國家才能夠成長"},{"start":8481.634,"end":8500.795,"text":"你認同這樣的看法嗎完全認同所以我非常的希望如果有機會你正式成為考試委員那你應該要從這方面來去琢磨這個是最基本必須要做的是加油謝謝委員指教好謝謝謝謝梁委員謝謝邱備提名人"},{"start":8501.929,"end":8519.959,"text":"報告全院委員會對考試委員被提名人邱文彥答詢部分到此為止謝謝邱被提名人文彥列席答詢現在休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行對考試委員被提名人鄧家基之詢問現在休息"},{"start":9167.455,"end":9194.857,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行審查考試委員被提名人鄧家基之資格及是否私人相關事項現在請被提名人鄧家基先生說明時間為10分鐘主席各位委員各位女士各位先生"},{"start":9195.731,"end":9206.271,"text":"本人鄧家基非常榮幸列席大院．並向主席及各位委員口頭報告．提出個人簡歷及相關觀點．敬請指教"},{"start":9207.335,"end":9233.72,"text":"回顧過往服務公職一直是個人職涯的首選畢業後高考及格先後在台北市、台北縣、新北市再回到台北市政府工作具備基層公務員的執行經驗也有遇十年的機關首長及副市長的領導管理歷練有幸在同才奴隸、同心合作下均能不辱使命另外"},{"start":9235.301,"end":9252.696,"text":"兩屆臺北市議員八年為民服務監督的工作．豐豐火火的創造諸多市政改革的成績．應該是急功耗益、耗管閒事的個性所致．其間兩度受邀到學校教書與青年學子互動．"},{"start":9256.181,"end":9268.73,"text":"過去服務公職及臺北市議會近25年長期與公務人員共事相處深感公務人員的重要性沒有公務人員的奉獻就沒有國家光明的前景"},{"start":9269.741,"end":9290.329,"text":"公務人員是國家發展的基石也深感公務人員及需要國家的照顧、培育、激勵、保障公務員就像一個部隊需要有好的領導統一、創造戰力、創造效率更期待合理的管教養慰"},{"start":9291.397,"end":9319.594,"text":"若缺少高昂士氣、公平的升遷．合理的待遇福利．絕對的尊嚴保障．焉能期待國家優秀公務人力的展現依據憲法．考試院為國家最高考試機關．憲法增修條文第6條規定．考試院掌理考試．公務人員的權序、保障．撫恤、退休．及公務人員任免、考機及奉升遷．包講之法治事項．"},{"start":9320.495,"end":9345.771,"text":"準此考試院的關鍵職責因為維護考試權的獨立、公平與公正另外考試院為公部門人事法制的最高獨立主管機關舉凡為國家選拔優秀人才、健全文官體制、激勵公務員士氣提升政府競爭力都是考試院的重責大任雖然考試院的存廢"},{"start":9346.551,"end":9368.559,"text":"一直是一個焦點然公務員的考試任用獨立舉辦避免行政機關用人不公不宜輕易放棄且為其獨立性是以保持考選機構組織的最高層級性至於考試任用之外的權序、保障、訓練等人事制度事項的全責歸屬"},{"start":9369.899,"end":9389.209,"text":"均涉及人事主管機關類型採用部外制、部內制或混合制的探討當可回應民意、檢討心格然其激勵公務員聯結致詞、積極創新避免首長特權用人及干預的目標不可廢死"},{"start":9390.029,"end":9414.184,"text":"忠尚改革之前守護文官系統．考試院仍應受大任．善待公務人員．焉能不成為國家公務員希望的寄託．既此考全訓用制度．要照顧好公務員．讓考試院成為國家公務員的希望．其實不難．只要重視公務員的心聲與期待．認真考量"},{"start":9415.144,"end":9438.975,"text":"諸如基層公務員抱怨最多的考機制度若堅持75%甲等上限會打擊士氣如果能夠勇敢取消上限但配套建立考機甲等的標準明確條例、獎優罰列、核實發給縱使百分之百核實甲等也符合現代人力資本的投資觀念"},{"start":9440.748,"end":9456.706,"text":"也能夠創造人力的運用與發展的潛力．否則褒貶之文無核實、懲勸之道缺矣另外現今文官體系主管調非主管．已屬常態、任意、公務員的潛意．"},{"start":9457.247,"end":9471.743,"text":"以尊重蕩然無存其中若機關人事單位疏縱除將助長公務員無端受害外也會造成文官體系的官風變相選舉靠邊站扭曲了文官體系再者"},{"start":9472.324,"end":9494.355,"text":"中央與地方機關職務劣等的差異．也造成地方人才窘困．同工不同酬．政府始終忽視．鴕鳥整齊、化解問題．雖然縣市升格困難．但官等升格容易．何必再以種種的理由來拖延．此外文官升遷、制度僵化．"},{"start":9495.543,"end":9511.231,"text":"以目前爬格子的模式高考及格從初任到檢任官最快需要十年非以不限年資破格拔卓的方式無法激勵特殊優秀人才研議破格拔卓制度已刻不容緩"},{"start":9512.091,"end":9533.959,"text":"最後在AI變革的時代到來如何確保公務員不被淘汰並能充分利用AI技術提升工作效率和創造價值公務員的培訓與激勵此時特別重要考試院的考全訓用都得及早籌劃以深化文官及政府的能力"},{"start":9535.399,"end":9549.956,"text":"照顧公務員確實不難考試院能否成為公務員的希望也在一念之間國家維護公務員的尊嚴社會常會長治久安至於考試院改革共識需要相應的配套"},{"start":9550.536,"end":9572.267,"text":"目前考試院職權已大幅限縮．並無權限對各機關執行任免、考機等業務．只有監督職權．除繼續掌管考試及公務人員的權序保障．退輔、退休外．有關公務人員的任免、考機及奉升遷、褒獎．則改為只負責法治事項．實際業務則由行政院人事總處執行．"},{"start":9576.389,"end":9594.5,"text":"因此無論未來憲政架構如何設計既有的功能仍需要穩定運作並持續精進在修憲之前新的考試院團隊有責任優先推動業務的改革並與行政院充分合作精進考全保訓"},{"start":9595.4,"end":9622.494,"text":"與基金治理的業務讓考試院的業務推動能更符合現代政府的需求未來人事任用權與考選權是否統一由單一個機關來執掌首重考量在建構維護優秀獨立的特性文官體制也必須杜絕政治紛張特權用人跟行政首長不當干預的負面因素"},{"start":9623.614,"end":9648.347,"text":"並希望能藉強化功能跟提升效率若人事行政權要集中則已與由各行政部門平行運作的獨立機關來執掌以避免諸多的不當干預當然修憲廢除考試院的轉型過渡期對於國家各種考試以及公務人員的權益保障等相關業務仍需要整體團隊"},{"start":9650.329,"end":9676.77,"text":"來持續的執行與推動．以落實考試院憲法機關無可旁貸的職責．也就是在修憲之前努力工作．在修憲之後絕對的尊重、貫徹、落實．如此在相關單位充分合作之下．應可避免改革半套．更可藉由考試院的奮力不懈展現勇於負責．達成憲政機關階段性的法定任務"},{"start":9677.651,"end":9702.556,"text":"另外藉這個機會跟大會主席及各位委員補充報告關於被提名人資格、學識豐富有特殊著作或發明者部分在審見過程本人提供完整資料包括一、著作原件有博士碩士論文各一份二、期刊及研討會論文有英文SCI期刊論文五篇"},{"start":9703.436,"end":9731.251,"text":"研討會中文論文八篇、三專書兩份、四特殊著作三份、五專歷證書一份其中有關專門著作總統府提名省建小組幕僚單位去參照法官法施行細則第五條第四項指的是曾經發表而且目前有實體本可知查證的中英文著作包括專書、期刊、研討會論文的規定"},{"start":9733.137,"end":9751.583,"text":"目瞭單位經審視以後交呈審見小組審見通過完全符合考試院組織法第4條第1項第3款的規定考試委員應具有學識豐富有特殊著作或發明的資格規定以上報告敬請指教支持謝謝"},{"start":9759.828,"end":9782.016,"text":"謝謝鄧被提名人之說明現在進行委員詢問每位委員詢答時間20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員如不在場視為棄權報告全院委員會陳委員秀寶之詢問以書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報現在請楊委員求您詢問"},{"start":9791.589,"end":9803.32,"text":"謝謝院會主席、江副院長、各位同仁、新會見的朋友、我們的提名人首先來邀請鄧提名人請鄧備提名人答詢"},{"start":9813.953,"end":9835.926,"text":"剛才你在短短的十分鐘當中 鏗鏘有力的介紹自己本席聽了有幾個文字 覺得非常的有興趣第一個興趣是說你說你非常的好管閒事 也因為你的經歷所以你也提供了很多市政的改革"},{"start":9837.166,"end":9853.131,"text":"最重要的你提到在整個文官體制上面絕對不要做政治分張同時你也提出了單一的一個考機制度這一點是在你的"},{"start":9854.411,"end":9880.538,"text":"這個說明當中非常重要的論點那在論述當中你更提出了目前考試院的執掌似乎只有監督那麼同時在整個人事總書方面不管是任免不管是整個考機不管是這個退服那似乎我們的考試院在目前的執行當中依照你的論述似乎他是沒有"},{"start":9881.178,"end":9896.834,"text":"沒有牙齒的老虎所以這些論述引起大家認為一個公務人員是國家最重要的基礎也是基石這也是你提出的一個論點所以本期首先要來請教"},{"start":9898.416,"end":9924.872,"text":"在專業背景跟跨領域的這個合作你在土木工程以及環境保護方面非常的有專業的一個背景那同時你也擔任過很多的地方政府的一個職務那所以本期要請教不管在民意不管在行政方面你在基層上面都有很深的一個歷練那所以你未來將要如何將這些經驗"},{"start":9926.673,"end":9952.003,"text":"來轉化為對考試院具體的貢獻特別是如何的運用你的專業領域專業知識來推動考試院的制度請做說明是 謝謝委員指教這個過去在公務人員的這個工作裡面我感受也很深我原來是高考及格以後直接分派在臺北市政府當基層公務人員"},{"start":9953.069,"end":9980.344,"text":"那當時的感受就是經常在議會有理說不清但是陰錯陽差幾年以後我又擔任了市議員所以我當時又立下一個心願就是說一定要讓公務人員把話能夠講清楚那議員民意代表我們在質詢台上只對事不能夠對人因為我深感國家公務人員人才的培養不易"},{"start":9981.064,"end":10006.303,"text":"要經過很長的時間他才有機會當到地方政府的科長到民意代表這是我第一個體驗第二個就是說在整個剛才您提到的文官制度確實是國家發展的基石但是我們除了有現有的不管是考試院或者是人事行政總署建構的文官體制的相關的權益規範保障"},{"start":10007.003,"end":10024.722,"text":"但是我總是感覺公務人員國家應該要更進一步的幫他發聲所以我也希望未來如果有機會我們能夠帶動這樣子就是說有事情國家幫你扛當公務員就像您之前講的他是個榮耀他也是個責任"},{"start":10025.703,"end":10050.598,"text":"但是公務員能夠有榮耀要責任是要社會給他尤其是國家那考試院將來如果有機會的話在這些方面我覺得我可以貢獻分享我的這樣的一個想法把整個考試院對維護文官體制從過去的比較被動的部分能夠更主動的能夠保護文官為文官的發聲當然整個體制的建立我們更是要來做檢討是"},{"start":10051.799,"end":10075.061,"text":"謝謝你非常誠懇的回答也將你的經驗也跟經歷融入在我們的這個詢答當中因為本席也從民意代表的歷練一直也到臺中市政府擔任了358天的副市長再回到立法院我同樣有這樣子的一個感同身受也就是在整個公務人員當中他的管"},{"start":10075.899,"end":10101.423,"text":"教養以及他的士氣尤其這個士氣非常的重要就像現在我們臺中隊在盧秀燕市長所領軍所有的公務人員大家士氣非常的元氣滿滿這個關鍵點在哪裡呢也就是我們的公務人員他有他的榮耀而且他很願意將他的才能去做"},{"start":10102.063,"end":10118.948,"text":"一個非常好的一個發揮這個就是我從民意代表一直到這個行政官再回到立法院來非常深的一個感受所以因此你剛才也說到了公務人員你要怎麼樣讓他有榮耀感就正如你剛才所說的"},{"start":10120.531,"end":10143.155,"text":"從爬格子開始你一個階段必須十年你要怎麼樣讓他能夠有榮耀當然你剛才也提到除非又破格但是不可能每一個人都破格啊那這怎麼辦呢所以在整個機制裡頭我們到底要怎麼樣去調整與時精進如果依照目前為止的這個等於這個制度來講"},{"start":10147.639,"end":10176.194,"text":"或許是20年、30年、40年前、50年當時的一個社會氛圍的一個多元絕對沒有現在的多元所以目前的制度我本席認為是不足以滿足所以才能夠才會說社會有很多人面向歪樓了對於我們的公務人員坦白講還有很多的不滿意但是公務人員這麼辛苦所以雙方在各自"},{"start":10177.094,"end":10203.098,"text":"都非常矛盾的這個氛圍下那怎麼能夠發揮最高的效能呢所以我歡喜剛剛聽到你的不管是爬格子方面要怎麼樣激勵人才我願意再聽聽你未來成為考試委員的時候針對於激勵人才因為現在全世界都在搶人才針對於激勵人才的部分你有什麼具體的建議呢是 謝謝委員"},{"start":10204.841,"end":10230.006,"text":"在過去的經驗到現在的壓力我最近也看到很多考試院提供的資料我就深感現在的公務人員不管是大家關心的高補考、錄取、不足額尤其是這個工程技術類他其實就是在跟師部門競爭人才講得清楚就是我們的招募人才的條件不足"},{"start":10230.814,"end":10257.519,"text":"可是文官體系人事行政他受了很多法規的限制我們講得很好對公務人員他的權益有保障但是他就是限制他沒有辦法跟著時代演變今天我們要招募人才沒有辦法跟私部門來做競爭我過去有一份經驗也跟委員報告就是我們公務員都很滿足我們的薪水但是我曾經到銀行工作過"},{"start":10258.419,"end":10283.845,"text":"突然發現銀行的薪水是我們公務員一輩子的薪水他一年就是我們一輩子為什麼他的薪資跟風險是回報的是等值回報的公務員做的再多所以才會有人說他多做多錯你這麼的說法就像郭部長說的他第一次領到經濟部部長的薪資他竟然很嘩然的說是不是少一顆零是謝謝"},{"start":10286.656,"end":10304.207,"text":"我還有一個感想就是說公務人員除了給他激勵之外在第一線最重要的就是在我們公務人員的相關的法規裡面對現在的首長除了給他權力應該克與他責任"},{"start":10304.887,"end":10333.975,"text":"也就是說這也是首長的成就感你怎麼把你的同仁跟部隊一樣帶著能夠對上陣殺敵能夠為國家社會來貢獻這個首長非常非常重要所以我覺得未來如果有機會我也希望能夠分享這樣的一個經驗就是說把首長他有的權力之外他應該賦予的帶動士氣給公務員的激勵他的獎勵要公平他的該有的責任"},{"start":10334.435,"end":10363.197,"text":"我覺得這個也是可能我們在過去比較消極的這樣的規範之外能夠採得更積極就是說讓主管讓首長能夠有他這方面的一個能力的展現但是我們社會也會給他一個要求這就是在消極目前你認為我們目前執行當中似乎士氣元氣是不足的情況之下希望由消極的層面來提升到積極換句話說必須要有權力但是也絕對要有責任"},{"start":10363.217,"end":10363.557,"text":"主席"},{"start":10382.867,"end":10412.491,"text":"在地方政府的時候你對於環保的政策的一個推動你是非常的加油所以在這種情況之下你認為在文官的培訓當中加入了環保保護因為這是全世界大家非常重視的一個議題加入環保保護讓可以永續持續的發展的這些課程你認為有沒有必要加入在整個文官的培訓中心裡頭的課程請做說明"},{"start":10413.774,"end":10439.787,"text":"公務員除了人才招募之外大家都認為說後續的在職的專業能力或者是說能夠與時俱進的一些觀念要能夠與時俱進來提供給他這些方面的培訓所以您剛才提到就是說如果有機會的話我會建議考試院相關的機關尤其是保訓單位把剛才的這樣的一個環保的概念"},{"start":10440.447,"end":10446.339,"text":"他是一個不管是城市也好國家也好他會是一個上位的指導的一個原則"},{"start":10447.436,"end":10470.056,"text":"各位指導的原則這個非常重要我們也希望能夠來加入那同時呢你剛才提出在智能AI智慧的這個部分要怎麼樣讓我們的公務體系它能夠提升這個效能以及達到它的公平性這兩點是非常的持平的一個方針你認為呢"},{"start":10471.55,"end":10494.1,"text":"就是說AI的應用在公務機關也不能夠自費武功就是能夠與時俱進但是現在的公務人員在傳統的培訓系統裡面他能不能夠及時的針對數位轉型或未來AI的應用來做熟悉我覺得這個對機關來講尤其是行政首長的重視是非常重要"},{"start":10494.66,"end":10514.557,"text":"所以在整體的政府團隊如果有組織的去推動的話那麼公務人員他不會被淘汰因為能力不足反而他會發現說你善用數位治理AI的這些程式的應用的時候可以提升自己在服務上的一個功能也減少人為可能發生的錯誤所以我曾經在這個"},{"start":10516.418,"end":10541.108,"text":"設想的過程裡面也想到如果有機會將來如果能夠參與考試院的業務對AI的應用也許將來我們國家的考選在AI的這樣的一個測試它也會是一種可以選擇的方式尤其針對未來年輕世代能夠投入公部門接受這一關的考驗的時候也許他接受AI的測驗的時候也不見得會比比試差"},{"start":10542.418,"end":10562.768,"text":"這一點是現在非常重要的關鍵時刻就成都公共工程委員會現在零信用的這個制度一邊在走那麼同時傳統的也在走所以在這個時間是最佳的關鍵時刻所以這一點也務必要去加入而且去提升這是我們社會大眾所"},{"start":10563.148,"end":10590.508,"text":"我希望的也就是提升整個公務人員的效能這個是非常重要我還是要請教因為這一次你是經過民眾黨的推薦這個本席要請教因為考試委員他是一個中立的專業機構那面對因為在這一次提名也有國民黨籍也有民眾黨籍也有其他政黨都有所以在這樣的一個政黨背景"},{"start":10591.128,"end":10607.373,"text":"事務外界也仍舊有點質疑會不會有行政不中立的這個情況所以本席要請教你要怎麼樣維持在考試院的中立並且去建構超越政黨分歧的一個公信力"},{"start":10608.553,"end":10623.067,"text":"謝謝委員指教就是說我個人也很榮幸能夠獲得民眾黨何主席的推薦那麼當時我唯一的想法就是說怎麼樣把現在的因為年紀漸漸的增長"},{"start":10625.169,"end":10650.034,"text":"把自己過去的經驗能夠奉獻到國家社會如果有這個機會我個人一定會非常非常的認真努力那麼在這種狀況下面跟委員報告就是說奉獻國家社會也是我們唯一的一個想法那麼未來如果有機會的話絕對會遵照現在考試委員的這樣的一個超出黨派依據法律"},{"start":10650.954,"end":10668.521,"text":"獨立行使職權只要是為國家社會好為文官體系好都是我們該做的而不是為了政黨為了個人非常謝謝你誠懇的回答那麼所以本席就繼續我們實時討論也就是你在地方的經驗對於中央的政策"},{"start":10669.161,"end":10689.86,"text":"我相信在整個建議跟實際行動的改革一定會有更加的貼切因為你來自地方所以你曾經擔任了臺北市的副市長跟新北市的環保局長這些的地方職務都能夠讓你有很多的地方治理的經驗那你要如何運用你這些經歷經驗你的專業"},{"start":10692.943,"end":10713.316,"text":"來應用在考試院特別是在整個提升我們地方的公務人員的素質方面請做說明我跟委員報告就是說在基層公務人員的時候我曾經聽到一位我的長官也是在中央部會當首長後來到臺北市工作"},{"start":10714.363,"end":10722.434,"text":"他講中央跟地方最大的差別就是他在中央當部長的時候他老認為說這個地方怎麼都不配合"},{"start":10723.311,"end":10751.876,"text":"制定的政策可是今天他來到市政府的時候他就說這個中央制定的政策為什麼老是不時人間煙火我想這是一個非常好的一個警惕如果將來有機會我們在考試院從文官體制從考選人才方面我們都應該多聽地方政府的一個想法我們現在講說考用要合一最主要就是國家考試統一分發他就沒有辦法完全兼顧"},{"start":10752.836,"end":10781.223,"text":"用人機關的需求所以這學界講它是一個雙盲的選配就你發出去的人是沒有選擇所以我說像這些部分現在各界的建議就是說怎麼樣讓用人機關的意見能夠在整個考選程序到最後我們有很多機會都提到口試都是讓用人機關從制定考試規則應考科目等等一路參與我們有教考訓用的平台可以用"},{"start":10782.643,"end":10799.761,"text":"前面幾位也有提到就是說未來如果有機會我們還可以去辦地方的基層座談把過去幾十年來他的這些舊法規舊制度怎麼樣因應未來新時代尤其現在大家談的Z世代的這個年輕人已經進到公務體系"},{"start":10800.522,"end":10818.033,"text":"我們怎麼樣能夠符合他們的一個取向的標準讓我們跨世代能夠融合我想這個東西都是未來如果有機會參與考試院的工作的話對過去的這些經驗怎麼分享大家一起討論我都願意來奉獻"},{"start":10819.034,"end":10842.452,"text":"我很歡喜的聽到您說一個動作也就是未來的考試院你如果參與之後希望能夠到基層政府裡頭去聽聽基層的聲音這也是本席從政以來我一直說的不管你制定哪一種法就是人民需要用的如果你定的法人民是用不到的那這個政府也是有歪路"},{"start":10843.453,"end":10861.267,"text":"所以在這種情況之下不管是在制定法律都要多聽民意那同時我們也希望誠如你剛才所說的在整個地方基層裡頭在我們的地方政府他所需要的人才能夠是適材適用、適所適用這個才是最重要"},{"start":10861.647,"end":10886.107,"text":"當然要有這樣的條件必須要聽取大家寶貴的意見來做最後的一個整合所以本席歡喜聽到你這一點那麼同時你剛才也特別強調也就是文官體制不應該是選舉靠邊站那這一點本席非常讚許你的概念這也是應當要如此因為所有的公務人員都是國家的"},{"start":10887.768,"end":10909.502,"text":"寶貝都是國家的財產它不分哪一個政黨它就是中華民國所以你能夠提出說文官體系它不應當是有這個選舉靠邊站是真正在為國家來做事情所以本席要請教你是不是支持公務人員的教育訓練呢那麼促進這個友善"},{"start":10910.162,"end":10910.382,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10936.435,"end":10963.505,"text":"實績或者是資歷的差異而引發的公權力濫用的現象請做說明公務員他進到職場給他一個公平的對待才是他發揮戰力最基本的一個要求以現在的文官體制我不認為說短期間之內不管是興奉、講仇都能夠做跟民間能夠來競爭"},{"start":10965.166,"end":10993.63,"text":"所以這個部分公平怎麼做我一直感受到就是說怎麼讓我們的基層公務人員能夠有發聲的管道不管是工作上的建議第一線他是最有經驗的你讓他能夠勇於表達包括現在大家關心的職場的公平安全霸凌那現在大家不但沒有這個發聲的管道那我們政府的體系可能也沒有在這些方面強烈的重視"},{"start":10994.37,"end":11020.459,"text":"換句話說您談到這裡也就是我們目前在整個職場方面即使行政院長已經提出在上個禮拜說一個禮拜內要去清查這個現象我們仍舊除了清查之外還是要有方法有制度我們一起加油謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝楊委員也謝謝鄧北提名人接下來我們請吳春成委員詢問"},{"start":11043.427,"end":11067.237,"text":"有請鄧家基老師請鄧備提名人答詢委員好鄧老師你好應該要叫你老師以你的資歷我仔細看你的資歷加州土木工程的博士"},{"start":11068.561,"end":11096.592,"text":"而且在我們的環境工程當中高考高級工程師當了兩屆的市議員大學的助理教授環保局長還有擔任台北市的副市長看你的這個資歷真的感覺你來當考試委員有點大材小用那但是呢考試院既然來了"},{"start":11098.302,"end":11112.893,"text":"我要給你考一些問題我看看你有沒有決心這考試院長期來一直被討論要廢除特別現在我們的執政黨長期主張要廢除考試院"},{"start":11114.258,"end":11141.91,"text":"現在又不廢除了那也提名了那既然進來齁但是我想啊這個鄧老師你長期在公務機構我想啊你是非常了解公務員基層公務員的心聲嘛應該不會霸凌吧你以前有霸凌記錄嗎不會吧應該是從你裡面得到了很多的基歐這個公務人員的獎勵齁"},{"start":11144.687,"end":11169.297,"text":"但是我覺得應該替公務員感到要幫他們有不平之名在我大學的時候我們班上的同學大概都是成績最好的會去考高不考考公務員都是非常優秀的人都是非常優秀的人"},{"start":11170.475,"end":11187.124,"text":"但是我們現在公務員在我們社會上面普遍評價不高今天工商時報的社論有一篇社論叫做文官體系可以陷入平庸之惡"},{"start":11189.71,"end":11215.439,"text":"平庸之二這個是一個政治哲學家漢納厄蘭他的很有名的一個在談公務體系裡面有很多優秀的人後來呢進來進入這個體系裡面都缺乏了思考的能力然後呢只會配合體制"},{"start":11216.991,"end":11244.851,"text":"配合體制然後甚至沒辦法發揮他的良知良能成為一個筷子手在執行一些那我覺得為什麼這一些這麼優秀的人進入到這個體制裡面會變成這樣子我為他們感到非常的不平我相信不是個人的意願"},{"start":11246.283,"end":11275.732,"text":"是這個環境、這個組織、這個結構我想誰能改變他們看起來主要在考試院你們從禁用、升遷、退輔從進來到輔續退出去都是考試院職者但是長期來講考試院也是一個平庸機構老太隆中"},{"start":11276.974,"end":11304.981,"text":"老太隆中的一個怎麼可能會能夠保護這些人呢能夠給他們旺盛的一個戰鬥的一個意志呢我相信每個人都希望成為一個卓越的人特別是這些能夠考過高普考的這些人都非常的優秀所以呢我對你的期待很高我對你期待很高希望我想這個四年的任期"},{"start":11307.638,"end":11334.576,"text":"這個我搞不好這是最後一屆了這個你願不願意成為一個烈士好好的改革不要顧慮那麼多不要管政治不要管要衝撞要衝撞這個體制為自己也為考試院留下一些好名聲可以嗎可以你有意願嗎有接下來我有四個題目要來問你"},{"start":11336.305,"end":11363.651,"text":"第一個當然就是文觀體系為什麼會陷入的平庸之惡那到底怎麼做考試院是政府的人力資源的部門所有的組織改革都必須從人資的策略這在企業都是這樣做"},{"start":11366.499,"end":11395.207,"text":"那在之前我看考試院唯一有心改革的就是前院長關中關院長他很積極地要推動文官制度的改革然後特別是考機法這些的推動不過以連他這樣子的一個重量級的政治人士這樣的一個備份的他最後"},{"start":11396.135,"end":11415.56,"text":"我自己也覺得叫做一事無成那所以要請問你你做得到嗎請問你如果擔任考試委員你會想要推動公務人員考記法的淘汰制度嗎我們以前都覺得公務人員是鐵飯碗"},{"start":11420.537,"end":11440.808,"text":"我這個連續幾個問題你等一下統達這第一大項就是如何去除這種平庸之惡你會推動公務人員的淘汰制度推動考積法的制度嗎再來的話就是"},{"start":11447.082,"end":11465.612,"text":"面對這個整個全球化國際的競爭我們國家的競爭力那如何來推動我們優質的文官制度那想聽聽你的看法如何做是謝謝委員剛才提到了就是說"},{"start":11466.758,"end":11492.688,"text":"怎麼樣利用考機法能夠提振我們整個公務人員的不管是士氣或工作效率這也是過去考機法一直被認為它是主管的一個人情工具的一個主要的弊病那麼我在報告裡面跟過去的這樣的一個感受我覺得考機的制度不再是幾個人能夠獲得家等"},{"start":11493.547,"end":11513.132,"text":"而是他工作表現該獲得甲等的我們都應該給他所以未來考試院在做這些方面的一個推動如果我有機會來做建議的話我們應該朝這個方式就是說怎麼樣落實考核工作有成效認真的我們給他甲等"},{"start":11513.752,"end":11539.17,"text":"那這樣的話你才能夠有一個誘因．激勵同仁也好．吸引外部的人才進來也好第二個部分您剛才提到關中、關院長當時我也是基層的公務人員當科長每年也都要打考機當時關院長提到了一個重大的震撼的概念就是說我們不好的應該要勇於打丁等"},{"start":11539.89,"end":11561.908,"text":"也就是說淘汰的機制可是我們回想院長提的是最少要3%就考機法的規定都在主管的權限範圍他工作不好的不要說3%你5%也可以也就是說我們要有這樣的一個淘汰的機制在考機"},{"start":11563.188,"end":11591.885,"text":"一年的工作裡面的考核如果不能夠展現這樣子他怎麼樣去配合身牽肌力來激發我們公務人員勇於認識所以我講就是說在這樣的情形有機會我一定會做這方面的一個建議就是假的你要名列條列符合的我就給他這個國家的競爭力這代企業一定是這樣做最近這個川普準備上來他找了馬斯克"},{"start":11592.745,"end":11603.756,"text":"成立了政府效率部那個馬斯克打算把聯邦政府砍掉四分之三砍掉四分之三他覺得效率會更好"},{"start":11605.646,"end":11633.193,"text":"教育更好所以要有競爭力就是說希望在這一點當中不是說我們對那個我想這個才是對基優的公務人員對表現好的公務人員我們要給他更好的條件更好的提升差異化才能夠留住人才但是也不能吃大鍋飯"},{"start":11635.582,"end":11660.031,"text":"這個會讓大家的士氣低落所以希望考試院要往這個方向要去衝撞這個體制第二點要請教你行政中立文化的建立最近勞動部爆發的員工霸凌事件引起了全國的震撼"},{"start":11661.363,"end":11681.917,"text":"大家看到了公務部門爭功為過然後升遷只講究學童的純正不在小圈圈裡面的就沒有份勞役不均公職環境的黑暗面浮上了檯面在早期我覺得"},{"start":11683.427,"end":11707.588,"text":"公務單位整個的還是有很多人人正式很敢講話很敢秉持專業給執政當局來建言即使到威權時代蔣經國的時代他的各部位的部長都很敢勇敢建言勇敢提出他的政策"},{"start":11709.457,"end":11738.624,"text":"即使是這樣子但是我很遺憾的看到我們這個現在感覺不會說場的聲音的地位越來越降落了越來越不敢講話了這就是這個古代在講的所謂的大官馳鹿好鱷魚小官畏罪而解舌嘴巴結結巴巴的不敢講話"},{"start":11740.967,"end":11764.832,"text":"我想現在是我們很多普遍看到的整個的公務機構的風氣大家越來越多的高階文官考量的是政治正確甚至不專業這個對整個的士氣整個公務體系用人不能為財這個是一個"},{"start":11767.745,"end":11790.153,"text":"那請問你如果你當上考試委員你如何來捍衛文官的中立讓文官能夠秉持專業良知為國家利益來做事謝謝委員行政中立是找回公務人員文官系統尊嚴我覺得是一個非常重要的工具"},{"start":11790.834,"end":11819.55,"text":"我在報告裡面也特別提到就是說公務人員他雖然是爬格子但是他很珍惜他所得到的這些位置尤其是主管職務所以公務員的系統理論上你主管掉非主管這算是一個重大的懲處可是如果我們在政黨輪替的過程裡面明天要就任今天就把市政府的副秘書長全部都把他通知他要撤換"},{"start":11821.524,"end":11824.99,"text":"這個會影響到沒有被撤換的文官體系在看"},{"start":11826.44,"end":11849.973,"text":"未來的選舉他是不是要靠邊站那這個東西公務人員的尊嚴他就沒有辦法能夠得到保障所以我覺得您剛才提到的就是說怎麼從行政中立裡面來開始著手那麼從行政中立法裡面各位可以看得到就是說他規範比較多的都是公務的體系包括人員、資源等等你不要去靠向政黨"},{"start":11851.013,"end":11876.409,"text":"但是反過來如果未來有機會我倒是會建議就是說我們不管是政務人員或者是政黨的活動你怎麼樣能夠規範不要逾越該有的規範來去要求我們現有的公務人員第三個問題要來請教你對於公務單位依法行政"},{"start":11877.682,"end":11898.77,"text":"及如何在依法行政之下有前瞻的思維我覺得這點非常的重要上個禮拜我在質詢我們這一個政府的前瞻計畫第5期已經最後一期總共花掉了8400億那主責單位是國發會我問國發會"},{"start":11907.655,"end":11934.936,"text":"這一個這8400億快要花完了我們的國家錢沾了嗎大家都在吵著錢不夠人不夠但是呢事實上看起來都在原地打轉這個不僅是剛才說那個川普要大砍這個公務單位我們自己也要去想"},{"start":11936.465,"end":11952.915,"text":"我們自己想我們這個公務人員為什麼沒有前瞻是不敢做不敢創新另外我們的國債一直舉債現在已經快要到六兆了"},{"start":11953.82,"end":11964.824,"text":"快到溜漲那我要請問你柯文哲當台北市長號稱幫償還幫市府償還的570億你應該是副市長吧當時是他這570億是怎麼還的為什麼他可以還錢各個縣市都在舉債我想這個我還是跟委員報告就是說在整個財政契約率"},{"start":11981.69,"end":11996.081,"text":"首長也是佔了很重要的一個關鍵首長如果不好大喜功他不會利用公家的資源來強化他在任期不必要的績效那麼他能夠節省"},{"start":11997.386,"end":12023.755,"text":"我舉個例子跟各位報告就是說像四大院他就節省了很多錢這是大家有印象的那首長的重視以後你把不該花的都節省下來那這個會形成一個機關的文化也就是說在這樣的領導的過程裡面你讓各局處能夠尊潔開支該用的用不該用的我們不要亂用這樣的話他財政機率就能夠建立"},{"start":12024.635,"end":12052.402,"text":"另外一個因為時間快沒了再來就是公務人員的慣性慣性就是說好像開車他只會一直要往前就一直往前要退後就一直退後以教育部為例像以前我們要開大學就一直開一直開一直開也不管那個少子化的趨勢一直開那現在少子化的照不到學生的就一直關一直關一直關"},{"start":12053.953,"end":12071.737,"text":"他只有一直開跟一直關這個在企業的思維是不可思議的不可思議的公務單位這個耗損多少啊所以我們教育部啊我們這20年來我們的教育我們的學生總人數減少了從500多萬現在400多萬少了100萬超過100萬但是我們的教育經費從1000多萬變到3000多萬多了三倍"},{"start":12082.523,"end":12089.414,"text":"就是這樣子的一個從企業的角度是不可思議的但是為這個單位就會這樣子做請問啊如果這個"},{"start":12093.058,"end":12117.693,"text":"如何讓龐大的36萬的公務大軍能夠跳脫這樣的一個舊思維能夠有前瞻的這個透過訓練或者是怎麼樣你覺得公務應該怎麼做謝謝委員就是說您提到了就是說不管是這個平庸之惡或者是慣性我倒完全認同就是說前瞻性是非常重要就公務體系"},{"start":12119.033,"end":12147.643,"text":"應該要脫除過去就是說把工作做完就算是完成他應該要強調效率而這個效率是不是能夠符合未來的這樣需求如果能夠兼顧這一點現在考試院也好人事行政總署應該也在因應這些方面對公務人員的考核要導向這個攻擊制也就是說你做了以後對國家社會是真正有攻擊我想這應該能夠避免這樣的一個弊端"},{"start":12148.303,"end":12168.786,"text":"所以未來有一件很重要的事情就是臺灣的人口的問題未來30年臺灣最重要的事情是人口的天翻地覆這一個少子化、高齡化、社會的定型但是我發現我們的公務單位幾乎都沒有這樣的一個思維"},{"start":12170.188,"end":12192.749,"text":"都還是停留在1970年代那種人口金字塔的思維用這樣的思維在定政策我們已經走向盜金字塔型而且是跑在世界的第一名跑在最前面了這個政策的擬定讓我非常的驚訝非常的驚訝完全沒有對準國家"},{"start":12193.906,"end":12212.998,"text":"沒有看到這一個的情況所以有關於接下來包括考試的項目包括我們培訓的項目對這些公務單位如何因為這個從遴選包括訓練包括怎麼樣如何讓這些公務員有這樣子的思維的改變"},{"start":12218.117,"end":12242.057,"text":"我想這是國安問題我們一定會特別重視在整個考選如果未來有機會我們一定會把這個東西納入參考謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝吳委員謝謝鄧被提名人王潔委員之詢問與書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請林倩琦委員詢問"},{"start":12257.193,"end":12275.305,"text":"主席、我們立院同仁有請鄧備提名人請鄧備提名人委員好鄧備提名人您好本席拜讀了您的經歷、自傳"},{"start":12277.93,"end":12302.198,"text":"提答等資料以及剛才聽了兩位委員的詢答可以看得出來您本人確實很有心在考試院貢獻自己的專長以及您的專才考試院主要的功能在這個考試權主要設在健全文官體制、樹立年能政治"},{"start":12303.041,"end":12323.129,"text":"促進建構公基制度．創造人民謀求最大福祉的賢人政府．並透過專門的職業及技術人員質量的調控．提升職業水準．確保公共利益及人民的生命．身體、財產等權利"},{"start":12326.121,"end":12353.427,"text":"但是呢我們經過了幾年來﹐爭議極大的年金改革公務員的士氣受到很大的影響最近勞動部又傳出了霸凌輕生案國家公務機關簡直到了關不了生的地步最後危害的還是全民的福祉那關於年金改革跟霸凌的問題最近很多委員都討論過"},{"start":12355.206,"end":12378.024,"text":"以您當過公務員、民意代表、行政首長、民間機關的意見領袖本席相信您對本席所提的以上的這一些議題跟問題應該會有誠意的而且很有效度的去處理在您如果有機會擔任考試委員"},{"start":12381.081,"end":12398.744,"text":"所以今天本席在這邊就先贅述這些重大的需要被解決的問題那以本席的身份想談一個目前普遍大家沒有注意到被忽略的問題也就是原住民族特考"},{"start":12401.074,"end":12424.225,"text":"這個問題在現在有很大的一個衝擊最重要的就是原住民族特考報考的人數下降而且因為法令的限制讓本來已經很嚴重的問題雪上加霜那不曉得您在這個部分有沒有一些所聞跟了解呢"},{"start":12427.123,"end":12454.811,"text":"謝謝委員指教關於原民特考在過去的10年以我的瞭解他從10年前的每年報考大概3300多人到現在大概1200到1300但是我跟委員報告就是說報考的人數下降有很多的原因那麼據我的瞭解衝擊最大的是當年的主語的認證因為要"},{"start":12455.885,"end":12485.688,"text":"保障原住民的權益做了主語的認證以後可能不符合這些原來規範的就比較少來報名可是我跟委員報告就是說原住民特考據我的了解有40多類科有三級、四級、五級而這個40幾類科每年都是針對用人機關的需求提出來以後考選部針對這個部分來辦理原住民的特考所以"},{"start":12486.209,"end":12508.007,"text":"您剛才擔心的就是說原住民特考他有受到影響以這個部分來講只要用人機關有需求提出來考選部是不會拒絕他都會報名第二個部分我跟委員報告就是說原住民特考他從以前每年禁用大概有一百七八十位的原住民這個"},{"start":12510.165,"end":12510.585,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12531.754,"end":12539.992,"text":"未來如果有機會在考試院必須要注意的我想我們也會來跟委員來請教來做這些方面的一個建議"},{"start":12541.845,"end":12564.625,"text":"謝謝您的回應所以真是不愧過往的這個經歷所以您對這個部分是有相當程度的了解那本席在今天希望透過這個機會也讓您知道那您知道這個特考是原住民擔任公職很重要的管道然後也是在鼓勵我們的人才透過這一個公共事務來促進原住民族的這個傳承也能夠參與公共事務"},{"start":12566.446,"end":12585.247,"text":"本席這邊先跟您提出來因為您也知道問題之所在這個族語的認證那為什麼今天會特別提出來是因為今年是113年度那請您看一下我們接下來的這個簡報所以從100年到113年度原住民族特考報考的統計人數"},{"start":12586.869,"end":12587.45,"text":"副院長：副院長："},{"start":12605.652,"end":12624.79,"text":"比50%再多一點58.85等別越高的報考率越低比其他公務人員考試平均報考率70%明顯偏低那為什麼會從110年報考人數更是斷崖式下滑就像您講的其實是受到足語的這個規定的衝擊"},{"start":12627.975,"end":12641.573,"text":"但是我們也很感謝過去這個考試院尤其是考試院的姚院長在原住民族的開缺還有在原住民族的考試他很清楚地知道原鄉地區的一個需求"},{"start":12643.034,"end":12660.078,"text":"但是在很多的文化推動下主語認證成為這個考試很重要的一個關鍵所以有幾方的一個說法本席要提出來的是原住民族的報考人數已經明顯偏低從110年主語認證執行以來又越來越低"},{"start":12666.8,"end":12687.275,"text":"這個當然是原住民族的語言發展法的規定讓許多原住民報考的公務人員很困難這個法施行三年後也就是110年原住民族參與公務人員特種考試的還有公費留考必須要取得族語認證"},{"start":12689.036,"end":12713.605,"text":"那前面已經取得資格的人可能需要足語的這個相關的學分所以在考選部109年修訂了公務人員特種考試原住民族考試規則之後在第三條的第二項規定從110年1月1號在報考的時候就一定要有足語語言能力初級以上的合格認證"},{"start":12714.765,"end":12729.095,"text":"在113年1月1日報考一、二、三等考試一定要取得原住民族委員會合法的原住民族語言能力認證﹐終極以上的合格證書"},{"start":12731.404,"end":12749.132,"text":"語言認證的卡關在110年人數已經降到一千多一千兩百五十二已經跟您所認知的三千有很大的差距了通過族語的原住民主要集中在七到十八歲的青少年"},{"start":12749.952,"end":12763.857,"text":"但是特考的報考人數大概都是集中在21到40歲平均年齡差不多30歲那有一些人可能某一些原因就錯過了學習的黃金時期"},{"start":12765.13,"end":12787.625,"text":"這當然有一個社會的影響第一個部分是我們長期在漢文化的影響下足語有一些流失但是又在整個社會氛圍的推動下又某種程度的被強迫的要把流失的足語給找回來這個在文化上當然是很重要一個認同可是在實際的"},{"start":12789.406,"end":12801.875,"text":"社會操作上確實有個案上的一些困難所以本席想要請問鄧平民仁請問您怎麼看待這樣一個事情非常謝謝委員就是說主語的認證在考試規則裡面應考資格的這樣要求"},{"start":12808.046,"end":12829.347,"text":"以我個人的了解就是說他是透過用人機關尤其是主管機關的一個意見的徵詢那麼在這種狀況下面如果說這個影響到原住民朋友的這樣的一個應考資格而他本身又是原住民的話這個是可以做檢討也就是說任何"},{"start":12830.031,"end":12857.794,"text":"一個主權任何一個國人他參與國家考試跟服公職的權利這個是應該要受到保障的我想這是可以未來不管是透過教考訓用的平台或者是說主管機關他直接跟考選部來做應考資格的這樣商量這個主語的認證的部分是可以做到調整我個人認為如果有機會就像剛才跟委員報告就是說一定能夠"},{"start":12858.554,"end":12869.09,"text":"我能夠參與的話我能夠把委員的意見能夠跟相關的這些業務單位來做這樣的一個反應我想這是我可以做的未來如果有機會的話"},{"start":12870.676,"end":12887.502,"text":"所以本席這邊有一個方法跟建議這個特考的主語認證那主語法在25條的第2項還有一個規定原住民族專責機關之公務人員還沒有取得原住民族主語認證者每年應該休息"},{"start":12888.522,"end":12905.129,"text":"修習一些學分原住民族的這個語言那他修習的時數由中央主管機關來訂定請問您贊不贊成去調整這個報考規定然後保留這個規定呢我想不管是委員或其他"},{"start":12905.925,"end":12921.796,"text":"任何的角度來提供這些方面的建議我剛才跟委員報告就是將來在不管是教考、訓用的平台或者是考選單位直接跟這個用人機關、主管機關來做商議這些都可以去納入考量"},{"start":12922.276,"end":12944.626,"text":"只要大家討論取得共識我剛剛跟委員報告就是說只要能夠符合應考的權利保障大家應考的權利保障大家服務公職的權利我想這個都值得被考量的謝謝所以你要知道這個報考人數驟降應該會是在考試院被處理績效的這個部分是"},{"start":12945.606,"end":12963.801,"text":"所以在土木工程跟農業技術類科其實是我們很重要如果是在原鄉很需要的一個這個類科那常常錄取也不足耳那麼在每三四年對不起這三年來三四等的考試都錄取不足耳"},{"start":12965.062,"end":12981.137,"text":"總計三等考試不足的比例是40.31四等考試是25.77長年不足額的類科土木工程、農業技術三等考試土木工程類科不足額更高85.14農業技術類科55.73四等的土木類科不足額是62.6"},{"start":12990.485,"end":13012.794,"text":"6.1 農業技術類科是51.35那很重要的一點值得注意的是土木工程也就是您的專業這個類科缺人的情況是最嚴重的而且還不是只有原住民族特考但是原住民族特考特別嚴重但也是我們需要這個經常被提列需用名額最多的"},{"start":13013.874,"end":13035.181,"text":"這個不足額跟比率也都是最高的請問鄧提名人土木工程是您的專業您也是所有提名人當中唯一一位土木專業的人員所以對於土木工程類科嚴重缺材的問題您有什麼看法您覺得是什麼樣的原因然後可以怎麼樣來解決或因應這個問題"},{"start":13036.957,"end":13065.035,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說土木建築這些專業技術類不管是在原民特考或者是在一般高普考都有缺額這裡面第一個我認為最大關鍵就是跟私人企業在競爭人才不管是在彈性、薪資、記憶力各方面公家招募人才的機制都沒有辦法跟私人競爭這是一個長期的隱憂第二個部分就是說在公部門"},{"start":13066.072,"end":13089.443,"text":"尤其是偏鄉我們觀察到的就是執行土木建築工程的執行工程的安全環境非常有問題也就是說它的關縮壓力讓這些專業技術人員他沒有辦法依法行政所以基於這兩點就是說我認為未來現在考選部考試院已經推動的專技人員的轉任"},{"start":13091.764,"end":13106.59,"text":"他未來可以對整個正式考試．考選人才不足的部分．他能夠用彈性取材的方式．有專技製造的．他就可以透過徵選．機關有這樣的需求．他能夠進到機關"},{"start":13108.01,"end":13136.154,"text":"但是我剛剛跟委員報告如果跟私人企業競爭的能力不足他還是沒有辦法第二個部分就是安全就是未來如果有機會參與考試院的業務我想我能夠做這些方面的建議就是怎麼樣建構我們基層土木建築工程人員在執行公務的時候他的一個安全的環境我覺得這個在制度上能夠給他做保護做避免比如說我們人是"},{"start":13138.867,"end":13152.859,"text":"這個這個這個陣風系統他能夠定期來關懷我們基層的工程人員你在過程有沒有受到不當的壓迫我覺得對他的保護對他留任的機率都很好當然最後因為這些工程人員"},{"start":13153.479,"end":13178.591,"text":"Iwan Nawi 公務繁重他都透過相關職系的轉任他就留掉也就是說在機關內部人才流失也是一個非常關鍵但這個部分因為都是為國家來服務這個部分要去做限制對當事人對其他部門的需求也很難所以我覺得應該還是從對私人競爭的能力來著手再加上安全的"},{"start":13183.625,"end":13202.335,"text":"謝謝鄧提名人所以您也相當程度的瞭解從公務機關的角度土木相關的工程人員的問題所以最後一個問題本席想要請教您原住民族特考的職缺都位於比較偏鄉的地區"},{"start":13204.016,"end":13226.749,"text":"那107年到113年之間．機關所提報的職缺．六成的職缺．就在全國的55個原住民族鄉鎮市那提缺機關的地域的分布．以臺東縣、新北市、花蓮縣所在的機關最多但是目前涉及在都會的原住民族．已經將近一半"},{"start":13227.932,"end":13242.955,"text":"偏遠地區的任職條件跟職癌發展跟都會區我想您也很清楚知道也有一些差距自從姓名法開始實施之後那又有更大的一個比例上的差異所以這也是原住民族報考"},{"start":13244.734,"end":13266.908,"text":"報考率可能偏低的一個原因所以我們也可以發現近三年開缺越來越多可是足以認證的這個規定又讓人才供應不朽所以本席想請教您您是否如果有機會到考試院的話可以幫原住民爭取提升都會區的職缺嗎第二點"},{"start":13268.089,"end":13295.239,"text":"最近公務人員霸凌的事件受到關注您剛才也很了解這個土木類科的這個公務人員可能在職場上所遇到的問題那原住民在這裡面也有文化差異上的一個狀況所以我們想請考試院在原住民族公務人員身牽的這個相關的資訊本席也很期待您能夠向了解"},{"start":13295.819,"end":13301.321,"text":"Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi"},{"start":13318.164,"end":13333.373,"text":"參與考試院業務委員的指教我們一定把它全盤做一個瞭解就是說原住民朋友在公務體系他的工作狀況升遷是不是有受到這些該有的改善而沒有做的部分我想這個我會來"},{"start":13335.924,"end":13358.59,"text":"參與您剛剛提到的就是說原住民也好偏鄉也好除了剛才主語的認證我個人也一直觀察就是說如果能夠按照職責的程度來做職務劣等讓大家都能夠公平對待不會說工作多的錢少的官等小"},{"start":13361.018,"end":13381.097,"text":"工作少的官等大現在我們講直轄市跟縣市要能夠齊一列等其實主要考量也在這一點我們都經歷過臺北縣的升格升格對工作我個人的觀察沒有什麼變化但是科長馬上升一等副局長馬上升一等"},{"start":13382.417,"end":13394.028,"text":"這個東西最大的好處在哪裡呢臺北縣原來人才流失非常嚴重不是跑來臺北市就是中央部會又進但是一旦升等以後當時留下來的現在都當了副局長"},{"start":13395.011,"end":13421.691,"text":"所以我覺得說縣市的列等的綜合的檢討我覺得不應該再拖那這樣的話可以改善人才在偏鄉服務的一個意願偏鄉不是不好有山好山好水我個人就認為說比都市還要好這個可能要看個人的這個意願然後想法以前警察調萬華分局那個是很競爭現在警察是調"},{"start":13422.878,"end":13438.016,"text":"台東是第一志願我聽說因為輕鬆一樣的待遇所以我覺得這個都有各有喜好但是制度上如果能夠讓它公平的話我覺得應該是可以改善委員的建議我們會來參考如果有機會進到立法院考試院 謝謝"},{"start":13439.239,"end":13453.553,"text":"那本席這邊還是提醒一下那在都會區職缺的這個爭取上您有沒有機會為原住民再多爭取都會區相關的職缺如果有機會的話我們一定會把委員的意見帶進去好不好謝謝"},{"start":13455.176,"end":13475.39,"text":"本席希望您如果有機會到考試院來投入跟服務的話請把本席所提的這個問題列進很積極的一個考量跟積極的推動是 謝謝好 謝謝林委員 謝謝登輩提名人下一位我們請陳瑩委員詢問"},{"start":13505.915,"end":13525.004,"text":"謝主席麻煩請被提名人鄧家基先生請鄧被提名人答詢吳元宏您好我想就從善如流稱您鄧老師因為未來我也要跟您請教很多環保的問題是"},{"start":13527.536,"end":13552.417,"text":"在上個禮拜考試委員的公聽會國民黨跟民眾黨推薦的學者對您的批評是相當毫不留情的就像民眾黨推薦學者的發言當中考試委員很多是政治任命但是必須可以做好國家考試的相關工作您覺得您可以勝任這份工作嗎我覺得"},{"start":13556.564,"end":13582.204,"text":"應該會全力以赴那過去因為我有這個公務人員的這些從事的經驗那麼在這些方面我想就是未來如果有機會在文官體系來講的話我應該可以提供一些意見那至於您剛剛提到就是說政黨提名我個人是把它當作是榮譽如果有機會我們一定全力承擔做最好的一個奉獻不會有其他的一些顧慮謝謝"},{"start":13583.305,"end":13607.682,"text":"好 謝謝 我也拜讀您的經歷那我相信以您的資歷還有這個公益的精神熱心公益的精神我想應該是可以升任是沒有問題的您跟柯文哲的關係不言而喻那柯文哲在競選總統時您也是全國競總的主任委員如果有人說"},{"start":13608.863,"end":13637.431,"text":"柯文哲以台灣第三政黨的主席推薦您擔任考試委員是酬庸的話您同意這樣的講法嗎其實柯主席從來沒有想到要對我有任何酬庸就是說我們當時後來柯主席也非常了解就是說我是文官訓練出身的公務員然後後來有機會擔任政務官包括副市長我們所重奉的在職的觀念就是盡忠職守"},{"start":13638.231,"end":13654.624,"text":"很傳統所以我也跟柯市長不斷的報告就是說為人謀而不忠乎今天有幸當柯市長的副手我們就是以忠誠把事情做好我也交代所有的我帶過的同仁都以這個原則而不做其他方面的考試"},{"start":13654.884,"end":13669.562,"text":"因為過去我不認識您我對您也沒有任何的成見或偏見那我也剛剛也說了拜讀您的經歷那我想如果有人說這是仇庸的話我也會反對他的意見是 謝謝"},{"start":13672.447,"end":13692.461,"text":"但是我想要請教您一件事您知不知道原民會有一個職務大家稱作為族群委員那他是以聘用的方式聘任任期跟原民會主委是同進退的那人選是由原民會主委提請行政院院長聘任"},{"start":13693.862,"end":13719.822,"text":"他的任務是協助原民會推動業務這一屆的族群委員當中大家都是從事原住民族事務工作相當多年的非常優秀的人選其中有一位他不只擔任過去地方民代、中央民代的助理很多年過去在原民會也待過三年在地方縣府待過九年"},{"start":13720.922,"end":13748.812,"text":"加起來他從事原住民整個的工作全部加起來是超過30年的所以我想比照您這樣子的經歷去比較的話您覺得這樣子的人才他適不適合來擔任協助原民會主委去處理這個族群的事務謝謝委員就是說在整個公務系統它包含了"},{"start":13750.171,"end":13772.341,"text":"政務人員跟公務人員文官系統我個人還是一直強調也認為有能力有經驗他願意為國家社會人民服務都應該值得鼓勵也都應該來絕對的尊重這樣的話對整個政府的效能運作提升才會有幫助"},{"start":13773.041,"end":13800.202,"text":"我想剛剛我前面敘述的也具備這樣的特質所以也謝謝您的肯定但是因為民眾黨推薦您不能算是酬庸但是我們推薦了對於30年原住民失誤工作經歷的原住民擔任原民會族群委員就叫做酬庸我想這個是相當不公平我相信您也會認為這是不合理的結論"},{"start":13802.444,"end":13828.057,"text":"那希望有機會可以跟這個推薦您的民眾黨好好說一說不要繼續用這個非我族類的心態讓人家只會覺得說所有事情這個政黨好像都是為反對而反對那我再繼續請教就是因為這個聘任的這個族群委員呢他的任期是與這個圓明會主委同進退的"},{"start":13828.997,"end":13847.014,"text":"那麼他們有簽約我剛剛上台之前我又再跟原民會確認過有簽約有聘書而且這個合約是很明確的訂定就是與主委同進退但是很不幸的在立法院突然修法那也表決"},{"start":13849.156,"end":13861.655,"text":"就是提出這個修法就是要把它改成無極值那這些人大概上任不到兩個月的時間我想要請教一下您對這樣子修法的看法"},{"start":13864.807,"end":13880.278,"text":"報告委員就是說有機會的話我一定更深入來了解那麼如果說有考試院的相關業務可以來協助我們一定全力來做如果未來能夠到考試院的話這點我們絕對的尊重是"},{"start":13881.007,"end":13898.427,"text":"我想我要請教的是說我想他們是進來為政府做事情那也是做族群事務的事情那麼在突然遇到立法院這樣的修法他們又有簽約那麼在這樣子的一個情況下"},{"start":13899.948,"end":13916.447,"text":"大家把工作辭了然後來接受這樣子的一個任命但是卻又突然的修法修掉了那您覺得這樣子的這樣子的比較粗暴的這樣子的修法然後造成這樣子的結果是樂見的嗎"},{"start":13918.779,"end":13936.74,"text":"個人同意的嗎就是說如果有機會的話我一定深入的來了解再聽聽看大家綜合討論的一個狀況最關鍵的就是說未來如果有機會跟考試院業務有關的部分我想我們一定全力以赴"},{"start":13937.899,"end":13957.93,"text":"好 謝謝你那另外是這樣在臺灣新故鄉這個智庫協會臺灣新故鄉智庫協會依照媒體的報導它就像是民眾黨的智庫在柯文哲主席涉貪案件當中這個協會的秘書長蘇敬強被約談那這個協會的監事葛樹仁也被媒體報導那他其實"},{"start":13963.073,"end":13981.938,"text":"是威京集團旗下中華工程的獨立董事這個協會的顧問孫鳳群也有在這個案件當中被列為貪污的被告依照您提供的個人簡歷當中您也是臺灣新故鄉智庫協會的常務監事而且是從112年擔任到現在您還覺得還適合繼續再擔任這個協會的常務監事嗎"},{"start":13993.112,"end":14015.407,"text":"總委員報告就是說未來如果有機會的話按照這個相關的規則考試委員應該超出黨派依據法律獨立行使職權是所以您現在目前還是這個協會的成員是那所以如果順利當選通過我們審核通過之後呢那這個您就會請辭是嗎會獨立行使職權是"},{"start":14017.995,"end":14036.004,"text":"好 謝謝那我希望就是說這個我想我問這樣的問題也沒有有沒有不好的這個特別的惡意那您按照這個藉著這個機會來說明表態我想也給予您肯定"},{"start":14036.744,"end":14050.004,"text":"那另外我們再回到原住民的問題因為我謝謝您回答前面兩個問題那比較尖銳的一些意識形態問題我就拿掉了那我們就針對原住民的問題我們來好好討論"},{"start":14052.064,"end":14067.853,"text":"原住民特考因為原住民家庭的經濟狀況如果與全體國人比較原住民家庭經濟狀況相對弱勢所以報考公職常常會是原住民比較希望改善家庭經濟狀況的優先選擇"},{"start":14072.355,"end":14090.362,"text":"剛剛前面也有委員垂詢到高普考錄取不足額的情況越來越嚴重我相信您也有注意到這個問題但是我們也看一下特別整理的這個表我們的這個錄取不足額的情況"},{"start":14092.062,"end":14105.392,"text":"現在是更嚴重了藍色的部分是高普考黃色的部分是原住民特考那以去年來說高普考錄取不足額的比例大概5%那原住民特考錄取不足額的比例卻高達46.3%"},{"start":14108.474,"end":14124.27,"text":"所以原住民特考錄取不足額的比例是高普考的九倍相當高或許有人講說因為原住民特考人數比較少但錄取不足額的這個趨勢它的確是存在的"},{"start":14125.211,"end":14148.44,"text":"那以這個去年為例：各用人機關在原住民特考：提出的這個緣額需求是175人：最後順利分發的只有94人：而且每年報考人數都有上千人：但最後分發卻不到一半那剛剛前面有委員問說您覺得問題出在哪裡我很仔細的聆聽您說這個問題是出在您認為是出在這個足語的認證的考試是嗎"},{"start":14155.117,"end":14171.302,"text":"足以認證以後人數有減少是吧那您有參考過實際竊竊竊竊這個通過的人數嗎比例上有就是您剛剛提的就是說像去年這個整個三等四等大概錄取到100名是吧"},{"start":14172.503,"end":14192.437,"text":"我想是這樣建議這個人數上我們可以因為畢竟我剛剛也跟原民會確認過足以通過率這個足以認證的通過率其實是還蠻高的那其實實際的問題可能也不是您的問題也不是其他考試委員問題因為我們原住民確實沒有在原鄉"},{"start":14193.197,"end":14208.965,"text":"沒有特殊的補習的管道這個落差是很大的我在這邊也特別跟您分享這樣的問題我想特別在這裡提出來就是說未來當您順利擔任這個考試委員之後"},{"start":14210.126,"end":14239.666,"text":"能否協助原住民在特考考試類科是否能夠把它擴大因為畢竟我們現在看到的就是大部分大概都是一般行政一般基層的公務人員但是我們對於外交、體育外交當然很多的南島語系國家我們的外交官到外面去約他們國會議員都約不到我去一天都約到了"},{"start":14240.526,"end":14258.252,"text":"所以還有這個體育現在這一次的這個棒球裡面超過一半每一場下場的超過一半都是原住民還有我們的民族藝術、音樂、文化等等我想這一類的這個科別是不是可以再擴大是"},{"start":14260.373,"end":14285.391,"text":"我看您有記筆記這個應該是重要的事項吧未來如果有機會的話委員的意見我們一定會來跟這個相關的單位來做參考您剛才提到的就是類科以現在來講40多項類科如果還有新增的話還是一樣就是說用人機關如果說有特殊的需求按照我們現在的考試規則他都可以按照這個新增"},{"start":14286.251,"end":14310.168,"text":"類科相關的辦法來做這樣的一個研究不會被無謂的拒絕這第一個第二個就是說您提到相關的這些外交、體育如果這些部分我們未來有機會的話一定會請相關的單位跟這些用人的機關來做商量就是說針對原住民朋友任公職的權益怎麼來做擴大或保障"},{"start":14311.169,"end":14338.285,"text":"好 謝謝您那麼最後一個問題我想要請教的就是有關於警察特考的部分警察的工作相當的辛苦還有危險原住民從事警察工作的比例是相對是比較高的因為目前我們原住民占臺灣的總人口數大約在2.6%左右但是在警察當中是原住民的比例"},{"start":14339.545,"end":14367.395,"text":"卻是已經超過3%那我們原住民一直都希望是不是可以在原住民特考的項目當中呢增設一般警察人員的項目可是呢不管是在行政或立法討論已經非常久了到現在都一直沒有下文如果您擔任考試委員您覺得原住民特考是不是應該可以增設一般警察人員的項目"},{"start":14368.64,"end":14395.649,"text":"我剛剛跟委員也報告就是說徵社的部分還是要用人機關他有這樣的需求主動提出來那如果說將來有機會進到考試院的話我們相關單位我能夠跟他來做溝通的就在這一點就是說如果沒有提出來我們主動跟用人機關來商議是不是可以需要這樣的一般警察人員的項目像在近年在各地的這個"},{"start":14396.749,"end":14398.871,"text":"監製副院長、副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長"},{"start":14419.454,"end":14432.932,"text":"有需要原住民的警察因為在跟當地原住民溝通其實在文化上的隔閡在語言上的隔閡確實有很大的困擾"},{"start":14434.514,"end":14457.406,"text":"在座談的過程當中確實大家有表達對於原住民警察的需求所以我也當然未來如果您有這樣子的一個想法我想非常好如果一直沒有辦法順利推動原住民特考增設警察的項目我想在法律的規定上一直"},{"start":14458.286,"end":14480.973,"text":"也是有存在這個漢格的問題所以我們希望未來可以一起努力來協調那最後一點時間我們講一些比較輕鬆的事情那麼因為這一次呢我們其實在所有的考試委員當中呢只有一位是原住民那麼我們在黨團登記的時候我坦白說我是抽籤抽到您的"},{"start":14482.216,"end":14500.544,"text":"那大家問我說要不要換換去問原住民的這個考試委員的候選人我說不要那因為我想透過這樣子的質詢那我準備多一點跟原住民相關的這個議題也可以藉這個機會提醒您還有其他非原住民的考試委員我想"},{"start":14501.544,"end":14528.161,"text":"處理這個原住民特考的部分不會只有是一個原住民考試委員的工作那也希望未來我們大家可以一起共同來注意原住民的議題一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝委員執照好 謝謝陳委員也謝謝登輩提名人下一位請鄭正前委員詢問"},{"start":14539.977,"end":14567.864,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下考試委員備提名人鄧家基先生謝謝請鄧備提名人答詢委員好備提名人好我是最後一個來跟您提問的一個委員那我把你的相關的資料看得非常的完整所以我大概也做了一個簡單的一個資料那你從民國70年代就取得高考及格大概是我覺得你跟那個"},{"start":14569.444,"end":14569.624,"text":"主席"},{"start":14599.504,"end":14624.849,"text":"民進黨這邊提名變成一個考試委員那確實也讓我們對您的一個經驗的豐富非常的欽佩那我也看到你的那個整個自傳當中寫到很多的一些不同的經驗然後在經驗裡頭我發現非常正能量你對於你從一開始在公務體系當中被破格"},{"start":14625.945,"end":14645.542,"text":"運用 比方說從建七職等然後去做九職等的工作你覺得這也是很正面的一個部分那包括有很多不同的內容可是這部分可能跟現在有一些年輕人的想法可能不太一樣因為你現在你叫他做七職等你去叫他做九職等的工作他可能會覺得你被剝削了"},{"start":14646.583,"end":14660.138,"text":"等等那因為你在你的那個報告當中你最後你也提到說你過去的經驗的時候事實上你是一個很雞婆能夠比較熱心能夠調和抵賴能夠把你的經驗去做引導後輩的一個這樣的一個"},{"start":14660.919,"end":14661.58,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":14688.991,"end":14707.286,"text":"公務員的曾經的工作經驗應該對未來會很有幫助的地方就是說我們要能夠充分的把剛才報告的七成同仁的激勵的部分能夠透過考機或獎程包括您剛剛提到的破格拔佐"},{"start":14708.277,"end":14726.58,"text":"年輕人也不見得他喜歡這樣子爬格子可是關鍵就是你有一個制度讓他表現那第二個考機能夠讓他一年的工作績效能夠得到該肯定的肯定該否定的否定為什麼因為還是有很多人在看該否定的沒有被否定"},{"start":14727.621,"end":14749.194,"text":"這就比較麻煩我想這個是我可以做這些方面來貢獻第二個部分我剛才前面也提到過就是說我認為當一個主管或當一個機關的首長他對同仁的照顧尤其跟大家報告的管教養慰他要有這樣的一個修煉有這樣的修養那這樣的話就能夠帶動同仁"},{"start":14751.155,"end":14769.53,"text":"所以我跟委員報告說我當年被破格拔卓從建十一直接跳建九的科長這是很難可是我們的責任也很大那時候我年輕但是就知道說同仁都在看笑話尤其是科長層級那我們就在這樣的進進業業那麼對同仁"},{"start":14772.915,"end":14801.798,"text":"我們要勇於負責我想這也是自己的一個要求那這些經驗將來如果有機會在考試院我想在這個相關的考機、獎程、升遷該有能夠主動積極不是像過去只是管人而是要看到他的真正功績要給他肯定我想這個是我願意來貢獻的地方未來若有機會的話是OK你認為現在公務體系當中最需要改革的問題是什麼然後您的具體改革方向是什麼"},{"start":14803.735,"end":14833.132,"text":"我一開始就跟各位報告就是說我認為考機法是很好來做修改可是我看到考試院提供了很多資料包括最近提的考機法的修正都中途停在那個地方最主要的就是說歸納就是錢獎金不得到大家的這樣的一個支持我想這個還是可以改善可是我的具體建議就是說該考他甲等的我們不要因為財政的限制"},{"start":14834.47,"end":14854.764,"text":"限制他75%大家覺得75%很多但是對一個機關他也是會有激進同仁全部全年奉獻努力的你也不要讓這樣的主管或首長有這樣線索可是他不應該考甲等的你給他95%就是現在大家的抱怨所以我覺得比如說"},{"start":14855.845,"end":14863.657,"text":"如果我們不要設限但是條例很清楚符合一二三四項你就該給他夾等不符合的一個都不給"},{"start":14864.468,"end":14891.27,"text":"第二個部分我認為檢陽報告就是同儕如果你給他自評同人之間如果互相評那再加上主管的負評最後考機委員會這樣眾人的智慧他一定能夠減少大家的抱怨如果還有抱怨我們公報現在是公開的社會大家都會看這樣的主管做了這樣的考機他有沒有公平我想這應該是可以得到大家支持的修正是不是"},{"start":14892.006,"end":14911.785,"text":"你有特別提到說在整個通盤檢討中央及地方職務劣等這件事情當中的時候因為確實在中央跟地方機關的職務劣等差異導致地方的人才很容易流失也招募困難這件事情你覺得考試院應該要重視改善你覺得要如何改善你有沒有具體的一個方向要怎麼做"},{"start":14913.477,"end":14933.994,"text":"簡單講就是說大家提到了全盤的職務列等的檢討如果說要縮小範圍的話我個人倒是建議可以先從縣市跟直轄市其一來做比較這個其一就是說你不要說直轄市的這個層級高相同的職務他就低他一等兩等"},{"start":14934.494,"end":14961.534,"text":"就是說你只要看他做的工作看他做的職責甚至有些公務員還建議說你看我在偏鄉做的工作的數量不會比直轄市少這部分我們確實也拭目以待因為在地方確實也碰到人才其實很容易流失然後招募不易的問題然後另外就是有關於約聘僱人員長期在政府機關工作當中沒有辦法享受公務人員同等的福利你也提到這個部分要加以改善你覺得要如何去改善"},{"start":14963.096,"end":14968.135,"text":"約聘僱最大的問題就是他不屬於公務員他也不是勞工"},{"start":14969.073,"end":14998.548,"text":"那他們自己就一直在問那我們屬於什麼呢意思就是說在整個人事行政法制裡面沒有針對約聘僱有一套完整的權利義務的保障我想這是我們應該將來有機會要極力來促成但是我以考試院提供的資料我的了解就是說他們已經完成了所謂契約人員人事條例而這個部分將來如果成功他可以把剛才講的約聘人員跟聘僱人員把他納在裡面"},{"start":14999.248,"end":15024.586,"text":"這樣的話對他整個從禁用、考核、報酬、起價甚至將來的退休給付、工商等等都能夠得到完整的一個權益造成這部分我們其實是有些期待的因為對於整個約聘僱人員確實在地方當中他們定位不明然後權責不明、保障不明所以這確實在地方的公務體系當中很普遍的一個問題所以我們也對於就是"},{"start":15025.026,"end":15040.272,"text":"新的考試委員當中是不是能夠取這個問題我們其實是有些期待的那我接下來我想特別問一個因為整個公務人員整個吸引力公務員的一個職缺吸引力不斷在下降我給你看一個數字考選部的資料統計公務員高普考人數從2013年的146209人減少到去年只剩下67339人10年內降幅高達53.89%"},{"start":15052.536,"end":15065.161,"text":"這麼嚴重的狀態當然有很多一個部分信例下降一定有它的原因那請問您覺得主要原因在什麼地方那您如何要來提升公務職位的競爭力讓更多優秀的人才能夠進入公務體系來"},{"start":15066.345,"end":15091.599,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說從正面看目前雖然降到七萬、六萬可是我們一年招的是一萬三所以在整個數值來講考試院也做過這樣的一個分析就是說他整個進來的這些學經歷還好就品質沒有變差可是就長程來講誠如委員剛才提的就是說怎麼樣去吸引年輕尤其年輕的公務人員願意進來"},{"start":15093.621,"end":15108.218,"text":"這個宣導價值觀很重要現在對年輕人來講除了講仇不能夠跟風險不能夠跟工作量來成正比之外他最大的困擾就是公務人員的體系現在做一百件好事只要一件"},{"start":15108.979,"end":15138.412,"text":"哇那媒體社會就批判那這樣的話對公務人員的成就感正面形象沒有那對年輕人對私人的市場他選材的多元化他的競爭對他的吸引力他怎麼會進到公家機關這是我覺得這個最大的一個隱憂當然就制度上如果我們能夠改善我們的興奉我們的這些值等值別的這些改善能夠有一些誘因能夠吸引優秀的人才進來這也是最好的"},{"start":15138.772,"end":15149.318,"text":"可是終究不比我們當年當年我們我跟各位委員報告過就是說我們是因為公教子弟受到這樣的一個觀念影響小時候讀書就是為了"},{"start":15151.226,"end":15176.753,"text":"不是報國打仗就是當公務人員要不然就是教書現在的小朋友沒有這樣的一個概念那怎麼去做宣導上面的改變所以現在考試院我看到他有這個國考的宣講總之團能夠深入校園甚至結合用人機關針對特定的系所特定的考試的類科來做這樣的一個選定標的來宣講我覺得這可能也會是一個有效果的一個方式"},{"start":15178.314,"end":15191.303,"text":"確實因為薪資待遇、升遷空間還有工作負擔其實三個最主要讓年輕人其實一直沒有走入公務員的三個主要的考量可是我們看到進入公務員的人數也許"},{"start":15193.124,"end":15206.799,"text":"報考人數越來越低可是我們也看到離職率不斷的增高我們看到考試院報告2022年公務人員的離職人數達到13500人次比前一年的10990人次增加22.8%一年增加22.8%的離職人次"},{"start":15214.848,"end":15227.564,"text":"顯示公務體系面臨日益嚴峻的人才流失的狀態針對這樣子離職率上升的問題你認為主要的原因在哪邊如何通過政策的調整能夠有效來降低離職率"},{"start":15230.408,"end":15247.504,"text":"這個在之前我也聽過像副院長被提名的人提到就是說除了考試招募人才困難之外你招募進來的人才能夠留住也是非常困難我想這是一個真正的關鍵那麼現在人才因為剛才外面的吸引力很大"},{"start":15248.124,"end":15272.061,"text":"我們內部如果沒有這樣管理上的一個激勵措施或者向心力的一個培養你要把他留住來尤其對優秀的人才跟外面競逐他一定會跑掉所以我剛才特別報告就是說如果將來有機會我們應該要加強機關的首長或單位的主管在這個領導管理上的一個磨練就是說你要給他有這樣的一個要求"},{"start":15272.481,"end":15283.55,"text":"而不是只有給他有打考機的權利你打考機完了以後是對同仁向心力團結一個責任這樣的話對人才的留任可能會更有幫助"},{"start":15284.651,"end":15310.889,"text":"確實是如此因為我覺得怎麼樣提升公務人員的一個在職率的問題確實是一個問題最近勞動部發生的一個職場霸凌的一個案件那我覺得就是一個很明顯的一個狀態其實在目前基層能力配置非常的不足很多單位只有7個人因為負擔12個人的工作量那面對這樣的一個情況你如何你認為要怎麼樣透過更好的一個人力編織跟預算規劃來解決人力短缺的一個問題"},{"start":15313.092,"end":15326.55,"text":"機關原額一直是政府的一個包袱政府一直強調就是說人事的費用越來越多但是我個人將來若有機會的話我會提供一些意見就是說我們機關的業務"},{"start":15328.803,"end":15355.04,"text":"也不斷地在成長除非你能夠簡化那如果說我們的機關總額編制總額不能夠突破你怎麼可以要求我們服務的品質提升我想這是一個非常必要要面對的問題所以我想就是說公務機構在這樣的一個狀況你不能夠要馬而好又要馬而不吃草所以這是為什麼說在窮責變的過程各位可以看得到約聘僱的人員不會少"},{"start":15355.899,"end":15370.538,"text":"他就是希望在這些方面彈性運用那如果是這種情形他的待遇福利又不能夠完全改善的時候這也是我們政府機構包括考試院、人事行政總署我覺得應該要正面面對要不然未來怎麼去跟私人企業來競逐人才"},{"start":15371.899,"end":15389.144,"text":"你剛剛在回答當中你不斷提到跟私人企業的一個職場競爭的一個問題因為你上任工作的時候你是在副班擔任讀董我覺得是一個很特殊而且一個很重要的一個位置我想特別請教一下針對公務體系跟民間競爭力的落差在職務"},{"start":15390.624,"end":15404.844,"text":"競爭力落差當中,薪資是一個很重要的考量點您是否支持全面檢討公務員的薪酬結構是否考慮引入彈性工時然後績效獎金等民間的管理模式來提升公務體系的競爭力跟吸引力"},{"start":15406.866,"end":15421.742,"text":"如果有機會的話我倒是建議這是不得不面對的一個時勢的一個趨勢現在不是Z世代的觀念改變時代跟社會都在變那如果說我們公務人員我們的公部門體系還是"},{"start":15422.302,"end":15425.845,"text":"Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi Iwan 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謝謝鄭委員 謝謝鄧備提名人"},{"start":15771.972,"end":15794.956,"text":"報告全院委員會對考試委員被提名人鄧家基尋答部分到此為止謝謝鄧被提名人家機列席答詢10月3日星期二上午9時繼續開會審查考試院考試委員被提名人王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴資格之相關事宜現在休息"}]}},{"id":"16325","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16325","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd0d48a73477a267512eb28a9b25c087c4b104c5adbfed68f7a1fbdd74814ca4115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-29T13:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院交通委員會報告併案審查委員傅崐萁等20人、委員陳雪生等29人分別擬具「發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」、委員許宇甄等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第四條、第五十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案」、委員林倩綺等21人擬具「發展觀光條例第三十六條及第六十條條文修正草案」、委員王美惠等16人擬具「發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案」、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「發展觀光條例第五十五條、第五十五條之一及第五十五條之三條文修正草案」及委員游顥等38人擬具「發展觀光條例第七十條之二條文修正草案」案）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-29T13:00:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T13:53:00+08:00","duration":3177,"影片長度":"00:52:57","委員發言時間":"13:00:03 - 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謝謝今天下午大家不共參加我們針對發展觀光條例在上次委員會通過的部分進行我們這個朝野黨團的協商那我們現在在進行協商之前先介紹一下今天在場出席的委員林佩翔委員黃建豪委員以及游浩委員"},{"start":1926.567,"end":1952.6,"text":"那也特別謝謝我們今天部長陳世凱部長也親自到現場放心啦這個不用到不用你待會要趕場我知道今天看這樣的協調的話速度應該還蠻快的好以及我們周永輝署長喔次長又來你不是等一下才輪班嗎先到了好以及我們政務次長陳彥博次長來再起立次"},{"start":1955.93,"end":1982.224,"text":"好 大家相關的我們部裡面署裡面的各位夥伴一起以及我們法務部廖章健參事 謝謝以及文化部沈長在因為沒有寫職務以及文化部的代表還有咧 還有國防部的代表張景泰是主任嗎"},{"start":1984.192,"end":1984.432,"text":"委員林國臣委員"},{"start":2011.837,"end":2036.985,"text":"我們今天進行黨團這個協商那今天協商的主要針對於上次有兩個條文進行協商第一個我們針對於第七十之二條那我們這個各位有補充意見嗎因為我們在上次通過的是按照陳雪生委員的版本通過那各位對於"},{"start":2039.017,"end":2055.397,"text":"內容這個部分有什麼要說明補充或者要透過協調來說明的說明一下你們是照陳雪生版本通過還是內容有什麼樣需要微調的部分"},{"start":2055.908,"end":2073.233,"text":"是跟朝野跟各位委員報告一下因為雪生委員後來也有提補充說明就是他原來的那個要訂定這個管理要點的部分他同意刪除但是站在交通部觀光署的立場我們希望發展觀光條例第七十之二條"},{"start":2074.173,"end":2083.997,"text":"仍然維持最多十年至一百一十四年的十二月年底其他部分按照原條文維持以上這兩點的補充報告麻煩昭委及各位委員支持"},{"start":2099.271,"end":2118.062,"text":"來所以剛剛署長是完全沒有新意啊就是還是之前立場的欸你不是說有些要調整啊沒有齁還沒弄好兩點嘛第一點就是第一個年限嘛齁就是延五年第二個的部分就是要你們一年一年之內包括什麼"},{"start":2119.687,"end":2147.304,"text":"不是就是不是延五年就是本來是114年的1月22號就是延到12月的31號就是同年的114年第二個就是不要另訂要點這是因為協商過那那個今天好像雪生委員也有特別提一個案就是是為此不調整不修正那個要點是就是這兩點補充報告"},{"start":2150.572,"end":2166.541,"text":"好那各位看到這個在桌上的這一本第43頁是討論第43頁那目前通過的版本第七十之二條它的內容是這樣與本條例中華民國104年1月22號修正施行前非以營利"},{"start":2177.353,"end":2200.675,"text":"為目的且供特定對象住宿場所而有營業事實者應予展延五年至一百一十九年一月二十一日這是第一段就是再延五年接下來就是自本修正條文公佈之日一年內由中央主管機關訂定本法"},{"start":2202.847,"end":2231.116,"text":"於一百零四年前原列之特定住宿對象這個管理辦法統一管理制你是對後段比較希望調整因為學中文也有來嘛對對是就是那個不用再另訂的就維持原條文就是由官方飯店跟一般旅館跟民宿他按照目前的管理辦法就可以了不用再另訂管理辦法好那就"},{"start":2232.726,"end":2257.337,"text":"這個觀光署的建議啦建議就是說它延五年喔那延五年我們是堅持我們的立場但是後面這個另訂啊回溯到一百零四年另訂一個特殊這個特定對象因為特定對象我們在前面定義的時候我們把它刪掉了所以特定對象因為沒定義是不是我們下次修法的時候再來處理這一部分好不好"},{"start":2258.274,"end":2270.363,"text":"那這樣的好不好?這邊有一個修正的一個版本我需要大家有嗎?有沒有?印出來?好,麻煩印給大家了但我先念一下啦與本條例中華民國104年1月22號修正施行前非以營利為目的且供特定對象住宿場所而有營利之事實者"},{"start":2288.052,"end":2298.421,"text":"因自本條例修正後修正施行之日起十年再展延五年至109年1月21日向地方主管機關申請旅館業登記"},{"start":2310.769,"end":2334.125,"text":"領取登記證及專用標章使得繼續營業那這個的部分後段就是原有條文的內容那但是日程的部分我們就再展延五年到119年1月21號那不用另訂這個部分啦如果有需要我們在下次修法的時候另案再來討論那我們就用這個新的"},{"start":2335.302,"end":2340.828,"text":"文修正草案 確定延誤年 後面另定辦法 未來以後再來詳細談我們要做成這樣一個協調 國通委員 政黨協調有沒有什麼意見這個是我們觀光組提出來的嗎"},{"start":2357.304,"end":2386.383,"text":"我們觀光署還是維持原來希望是維持原來10年那最多是考慮到一些那只有10年的部分就是到114年的年底我們的建議是這個版本那主席這個是雪生修的是吧對對對我們這邊提的修的把下面因為一年以內要立什麼辦法那個另外我以後另外處理我覺得部長也來啦那署長也來啊你們什麼都不要"},{"start":2388.125,"end":2409.879,"text":"你們到底什麼叫做發展觀光條例你們根本就是不是發展什麼觀光條例嘛所以一個就是你們要提出特別的管理辦法來輔導他讓他有就地合法我們講了老半天你們也不聽那我不曉得那你們要幹嘛你們到年底要幹嘛"},{"start":2411.192,"end":2434.027,"text":"那你們有辦法去輔導他嗎?事實上上面延了那些時間是有少部分的已經合法化了那你再給他延個五年我跟你講仁至義盡我給你五年你還是不能成立那我就公事公辦這個在做任何事情"},{"start":2435.273,"end":2464.369,"text":"人家情離華嘛你不要把華抬在前面嘛那如果是這個你們是同意那那個訂定一個辦法那以後再講無所謂但是你這個時間你們要去把握嘛因為我記得你們上次有一個報告已經輔導也有二十幾家嘛那你這五年當中我給你們這些人再給你們五年啊你們都做不到那你不能怪我政府啊"},{"start":2465.819,"end":2492.336,"text":"所以我是建議不定有時候這些東西當然當然就是要考慮到很多面的問題這是要促進觀光並非是要縱容而是歷史上我已經告訴你們了政府國產署只要72年以前所成立的東西他們也不強制啊"},{"start":2493.755,"end":2505.62,"text":"本院交通委員會報告併案審查委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員會報告併案審查委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案：本院交通委員及第七十三條之二條文修正草案："},{"start":2520.407,"end":2542.5,"text":"其他的問題 土地的變更問題 租賃的問題 你們要去解決啊我辦法給你們 不能解決 我坦白講 你們應該要去輔導他像那個國土署 他沒有辦法解決的 你們要用怎麼行政的東西讓他去變通 變成合法化"},{"start":2543.496,"end":2572.508,"text":"那我說實在那你們過去為什麼會去縱容他所以我一直在強調這是歷史上的違規歷史上的違規政府當然也要負責任啊政府是沿系啊不管你是國民黨也好誰執政也好本來就是為什麼會縱容他更何況喔有些 有些喔有些這些寄存的東西他們都有建造喔"},{"start":2573.735,"end":2597.616,"text":"只是我們這個條例是他建立以後是我們的條例才開始來管理它所以這個部分我真的要建議部長還有署長要有一個通融行政通融的做法不能你們這樣一年一年怎麼處理他要變更他要變更或者國土署要幫忙都沒有辦法幫忙"},{"start":2598.797,"end":2622.755,"text":"所以我還是建議現在這個是經過你們協調如果能延五年這個我跟你講政府已經仁至義盡踩得很硬五年後你沒有辦法去做到我的管理標準那對不起你不能怪我們所以我是建議這個延五年我是認為我們政府也不要那麼強硬"},{"start":2624.121,"end":2624.361,"text":"委員許宇甄等20人擬具"},{"start":2647.412,"end":2673.386,"text":"那下一次再來定但是這五年時間給他他們再做不好那不能怪我們政府我是比較主張延五年其他可以先不要定定但是在這個部分政府還是要有一個通融啦不是西班班啦啊這個我跟你講這牽涉太廣好不好好請陳雪生委員把那個調整的內容說明一下昨天那個署長到我辦公室來嘛齁我們延伸這個問題"},{"start":2675.982,"end":2683.514,"text":"這裏面有變化,請問這張誰寫的?是你的意思還是交通部的意思?應該是我們觀光署的一個建議意見"},{"start":2690.25,"end":2713.926,"text":"他們有說如果說這個在延五年不變但是後面確認一下文字可以調成這樣但是剛剛有說啦他們的立場還是到年底我沒有同意他後面這一段啦我是同意的是昨天我有簽字那個啊我簽字不是這一張啦我簽字那個後面沒有這些字眼啦"},{"start":2715.294,"end":2734.375,"text":"後面沒有人字眼我看一下好不好因為組長你是跟我講你是跟我講只是變動字這是我之前的嗎 不是吧"},{"start":2736.277,"end":2762.539,"text":"不是啊,我修正的是只是講說104年、10年再展延五年,只是講再展延五年就沒有啦,下面就沒有啦。就之前法例後面是這樣寫的啦,就等於說沒有變動就接上來。那後面不寫行嗎?照國城英雄的意見,好不好來。"},{"start":2764.895,"end":2791.722,"text":"好 有話委員 有沒有意見那這樣好不好因為今天這個政黨協商因為目前看起來民進黨沒有出席所以因為政黨協商這個可能沒有辦法有具體的結論那我們是不是如果沒有其他意見我們就把原來我們通過的版本加上今天學生委員協商協調的那個條文的部分一併送院長來做進一步的院會的協商"},{"start":2794.54,"end":2795.381,"text":"文修...文修...好"},{"start":2823.854,"end":2848.368,"text":"那這樣的我們今天的一個協商因為有政黨沒有出席但是還是可以討論討論結果就是我們學生委員自己有提出來一個優化的一個版本我們併著原案原案送我們院會由院長召集協商所以本案建請院長召集協商各位有沒有同不同意"},{"start":2849.431,"end":2870.271,"text":"好,沒有其他意見喔?好,那我們正式作成建請院長召集協商,針對於七十九條的部分。好,以上。好,接下來還有五十三條,也要討論的是保留送院會處理啊。這個,觀光署要不要講一下,當時保留的大家點在哪裡?"},{"start":2871.384,"end":2898.533,"text":"對 也特別報告一下就是我們是有關於這些旅行社有一些條文是五十三條譬如說他在國外丟包那確實是按照五十三條的基本精神來講確實對我們國家的這些榮譽、聲譽確實是有損所以這件事情我們還是希望能夠維持原條文好 原本我們委員的發言我還記得就是擔心"},{"start":2900.014,"end":2913.442,"text":"就是給你這些這個你的用途太廣就是你想到什麼就用了就開罰了大家擔心這個啦好不好那這個的部分各位委員有沒有53條有沒有其他意見"},{"start":2916.284,"end":2916.604,"text":"黃建華委員"},{"start":2934.997,"end":2949.406,"text":"那這個部分你看一下我過去這些年案我跟你們調資料你這些年開罰的比例的案例有幾個一個就是民國95年好說今天就丟包旅客所以變成經媒體批鬥之後影響國家形象電入國家榮譽所以開罰他15萬"},{"start":2951.187,"end":2965.81,"text":"第二條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第二條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案第三條及第七十三條之二條文修正草案"},{"start":2981.329,"end":3001.643,"text":"這跟電入國家容易損害國家利益我覺得沒有這個必然關係那剛剛提到的案例比如說地下會對這部分應該有其他的法律可以處理那因為疫情發生事情的時候當時也有這個特別條例可以處理所以這些東西我就覺得說你把它放在觀光業裡面好像變成這個架在業者上面的一個刀子那"},{"start":3002.503,"end":3021.33,"text":"所以我們那時候我看那個許宇甄委員的意思是說如果要認定的話應該是經由法院認定那上次說要經由法院認定的時候這個司法院又說沒有相關的法律所以要去定義這件事情非常困難那我說我就說那如果連司法院都覺得這件事情很困難很難定義的話那你在行政裁量上要怎麼去定義說誰叫做什麼樣行為就墊入"},{"start":3022.31,"end":3048.348,"text":"國家榮譽什麼叫電入什麼叫損害國家利益所以我覺得這件事情的定義我覺得也很難明確這是我剛剛提出的一個疑問謝謝是 因為我們都會按照實際的案例來做這個裁罰嘛所以這件事情因為刑之有年然後也沒有治案難刑之處然後其他相關的法令也有類似的這種條文的明定那對我們在執行公務上來講確實也比較"},{"start":3050.951,"end":3054.485,"text":"就拜託這個司法院是有意見嗎"},{"start":3056.127,"end":3073.219,"text":"委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條及第七十條之二條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等20人擬具:「發展觀光條例第三十三條"},{"start":3084.426,"end":3108.671,"text":"正面表列一些主要的樣態、可能性你也比較好說明啦因為說不會其實大家也擔心我們希望把樣態更明確化在院長、院會協調的時候能夠比較好協商好不好那這個部分我們一樣一樣就交由我們院會由韓院長來召集協商好各位有沒有"},{"start":3113.68,"end":3122.049,"text":"同意嗎?同意,那我們以上兩條都交給院會由院長召集協商好,那我們今天的一個政黨協調會議協商會議就到這邊為止謝謝大家參加,謝謝"},{"start":3138.131,"end":3139.172,"text":"文修正草案審查委員"},{"start":3164.346,"end":3165.967,"text":"本院交通委員會報告併案審查"}]}},{"id":"16324","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16324","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6090d48a73477a267519b5fa2f296a93534b104c5adbfed68f782717d982953afef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 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謝謝翁曉琳委員的發言接下來請登記第二號林倩琪委員請發言"},{"start":2063.961,"end":2077.718,"text":"委員長、各位立院同仁大家好首先,讓我們共同為中華隊在世界十二強棒球賽中奪冠來喝彩正份榮耀不僅是全體選手心情的付出更再次證明中華民國在國際運動競技上的實力"},{"start":2081.738,"end":2099.823,"text":"今年我們也見證了2024年第33屆巴黎奧運會代表隊的卓越表現原住民選手佔了五分之一這一次中華棒球隊原住民族選手也佔了二分之一原住民族在體育經濟上展現了關鍵的角色"},{"start":2101.041,"end":2124.722,"text":"在我國體育發展中,原住民一直扮演的舉足輕重的角色,從1970年代阿美族的揚船館在羅馬奧運中的十項全能奪牌,原住民運動員在國際賽事中就從來沒有缺席過。許多運動員憑藉著卓越的天賦及毅力,在國際賽事中屢創佳績,成為了國五下一代運動員的重要典範。"},{"start":2126.457,"end":2154.735,"text":"雖然原住民在體育領域中的貢獻有目共睹但限席政策對整個支持還是有所不足資源分配在原住民的體育發展中多集中在基層運動的推廣缺乏針對高水平選手的長期支持許多原住民族運動員在職業生涯上的規劃及轉型上都面臨挑戰尤其是在進入了職業聯賽或退役後的就業問題往往缺乏制度性的保障跟支持"},{"start":2155.535,"end":2178.366,"text":"基層的運動教育在原鄉地區基礎設施的落後,使得許多原住民運動員必須離鄉背井,不僅影響整個運動訓練,也產生了一些斷層,對教育生活也產生了一些壓力。有鑒於此,我們呼籲在新成立的運動部架構下,應該針對原住民族的體育發展進行全面性的政策調整與支持。"},{"start":2179.446,"end":2198.874,"text":"本席在這邊提出幾項建議在體育經費的分配上應該特別設立原住民的專項經費用於支持原住民族的菁英運動員的發展計畫更要提供原鄉都會原住民族集中區的高水準教練以健全整個完整的科學化信念體系"},{"start":2199.514,"end":2214.371,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具第2個部分很重要的是運動部及相關的機構應明定援助民族在體育專業業中的禁用比例特別是教練、運動科學研究等專業領域確保援助民族在體育產業中長期發揮影響力"},{"start":2218.396,"end":2233.823,"text":"在原住民族地區的運動設施應該更完備,我們應該減少運動員因為地理位置造成不平等的競爭。因此,倩琦在此呼籲,我們要發展全民運動,原住民的禁用比例應該入法。"},{"start":2262.591,"end":2288.94,"text":"委員長、各位同事大家早安今天我想要談高等教育免學費教育是國家最長遠的投資也是每個人改變命運的起點對於年輕世代而言教育是開啟未來的鑰匙對於國家而言教育更是培育人才的根基而教育中的高教體系不但是培養國家專業人才的重要階段"},{"start":2289.58,"end":2289.8,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":2308.404,"end":2337.391,"text":"委員劉華、挪威、阿根廷都以免費的高等教育政策確保每位學生都有平等大學受教的機會瑞典和丹麥不僅免學費甚至還提供生活津貼減輕學生的生活壓力紐西蘭也逐漸實施中甚至連北韓也提供其國民免費的大學教育因為這些國家知道"},{"start":2338.131,"end":2345.018,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":2363.435,"end":2375.023,"text":"讓無數的學生和家庭背負沉重的負擔面對少子化的時代也是我們推動這個改革的契機更重要的是降低高教的經濟門檻能減輕學生和家庭的負擔"},{"start":2379.205,"end":2406.558,"text":"現在能有許多家庭因為學費壓力孩子的夢想只能停在起跑點甚至不得不提前放棄學業這樣的情況對於學生對於國家都是一種損失我們希望讓每一位學子都能專注在學習與創新而不是被財務問題所困擾投資教育是點燃希望降低門檻才能成就未來"},{"start":2407.418,"end":2424.243,"text":"教育能夠創造最美好的願景而增加高教育預算減少學生負擔則是讓這份願景落實的最關鍵的一步讓我們期許國家因更多元的人才而更強大投資教育紮根未來公平機會讓夢盛開謝謝"},{"start":2432.17,"end":2458.285,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員的發言接下來請登記第4號許宇珍委員發言主席及各位同仁及各位媒體先敬大家早安"},{"start":2459.702,"end":2482.987,"text":"賴政府縱容霸凌文化、公平正義全然崩解政府的存在原本就應該是要保障人民的權益維護社會的公平正義然而如今我們看到的卻是一個職場霸凌的溫床政府部門一樁又一樁的霸凌案件陸續被曝光受害者身陷痛苦"},{"start":2483.627,"end":2504.862,"text":"而民進黨政府的態度卻充滿冷漠民進黨政府第一時間面對霸凌事件選擇施暗、漠視甚至找高官施壓下屬做法掩蓋事實這樣的政府要如何贏得人民的信任在接連爆發的霸凌事件中執政者的應對態度讓人心寒"},{"start":2507.003,"end":2528.146,"text":"他們表面上說要展開調查實際上卻始終拿不出具體的結果他們口口聲聲說關心受害者卻連最基本的保護吹哨者的責任都無法履行這樣的拖延、敷衍不僅暴露了行政效率的低下更是赤裸裸的失職與失德"},{"start":2529.227,"end":2543.966,"text":"最近行政院有4個部會深陷霸凌的風暴以近期的教育部海科館為例館長被指控長期對下屬霸凌導致多名員工身心受創甚至出現心理疾病"},{"start":2544.827,"end":2569.369,"text":"事件曝光後該館長不僅沒有真心悔過還以人事調動的方式打擊報復公然地踐踏職場倫理與法律規範而更令人震驚的是卓榮泰院長跟鄭英耀部長不但未能及時採取果斷而及時的措施反而以拖延手段來回應外界的關切"},{"start":2570.709,"end":2597.616,"text":"35天仍不見調查報告教育部比勞動部還要惡劣受害者也無法保護吹哨者還要面臨進一步的打壓賴政府這樣的處理方式無疑是對人民的信任的踐踏使台灣在國際上再次蒙羞霸凌事件層出不窮民進黨政府的責任在哪裡對正義的承諾去了哪裡當我們看到包庇"},{"start":2598.476,"end":2625.498,"text":"拖延和官官相互成為他們唯一的回應方式賴政府怎麼好意思跟人民談信賴政府不該縱容霸凌加害者必須立刻嚴懲涉案人員為受害者討回公道國人無法接受任何的拖延更不能容忍任何的藉口正義必須立即彰顯錯誤必須立即糾正責任不需要"},{"start":2626.658,"end":2636.804,"text":"必須毫不推卸的承擔只有這樣才能挽回對人民的信任民進黨持續包庇官官相護恐怕讓綠營權貴變成霸凌者的慘地"},{"start":2658.76,"end":2678.961,"text":"世界十二強棒球賽中華隊表現亮眼 舉國歡騰 大家都沉浸在贏球的喜悅但是絕對不會因為贏球而忘記勞動部有一位公務員不幸離開這樣的一個霸凌事件我們不可能也不願意忘記我們必須要持續追究"},{"start":2679.682,"end":2707.308,"text":"不只現在行政院長卓榮泰下令徹查教育部、衛福部、經濟部、交通部的霸凌案件甚至外交部、國科會也都傳出相關也因此可見職場霸凌積習已久公務員確實有苦難言這是關鍵的時刻這是全民都在看的時刻這是展現政府大是大非有沒有決心要面對霸凌的時刻因此我們要求"},{"start":2708.482,"end":2730.08,"text":"卓院長說一個月內完成調查並且對外說明的宗旨是真的要痛定思痛是真的要改革重點是各部會的調查都是要完真的不要打假球不要又是一個目的良善、官官相護、避重就輕、投過生就過的調查報告國人絕對沒有辦法接受"},{"start":2730.62,"end":2759.382,"text":"沒有真相的調查報告就是糊弄就是會更讓國人看不起再者我們要呼籲現在新任的勞動部長不要到了部會就耍官威你的上任並不是因為你天資聰穎並不是因為你深得信任而是因為一個公務員的離開逼迫你要去做救火隊但是救火隊還沒做成我們已經看到在做血汗工廠"},{"start":2760.043,"end":2765.288,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":2780.862,"end":2805.723,"text":"倒個班、接接電話、倒倒茶水或者是你只要來幾個小時但重點是通勤的時間以及上下班的時間還有六日休息家人的照顧的時間這一些怎麼算?看到勞動部在昨天改口就代表是說你也知道這樣的狀況其實是不對的其實是不允許的其實是違反勞基勞動相關法令的"},{"start":2806.67,"end":2808.011,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":2836.75,"end":2843.075,"text":"防霸凌絕對不能打假球這是我們給民進黨政府最後的忠告謝謝謝謝洪孟愷委員的發言接下來請登記第6號麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":2868.779,"end":2891.98,"text":"謝謝院長各位親愛的家人大家早安今天要和大家談的政府資源分配與施政效力的問題嚴重影響我們的權利與國家的未來光光相互之一亂花人民的血汗錢人民如何信任政府"},{"start":2893.16,"end":2920.091,"text":"經濟部一一三年度總預算稅入高達兩兆七千兩百多億但農業部僅是在四月就未進口但補貼了五點七億當我們提出刪減未審查的經費兩百四十萬時民進黨立委竟表示錢已經花完了不能刪"},{"start":2922.251,"end":2939.816,"text":"事問為審查的經費可以讓行政部門任意使用嗎請教我們人民你們接受嗎觀光相互之二28年的制度是否檢討原住民族群委員每年耗費了2200萬平均每人高達135萬"},{"start":2946.618,"end":2962.426,"text":"但功能多為跑腿性質對於國家考試的文官待遇情何以堪28年來從未檢討歷史永久不是改革的理由資源應用"},{"start":2963.907,"end":2989.306,"text":"應用來真正改善原住民的權益而非仇用養磚腳的制度觀光先護之三,勞動部資源濫用誰來監督每年勞動部救安基金就收入284億元應用於移工與企業溝通及管理的經費"},{"start":2990.387,"end":3008.58,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":3015.964,"end":3026.369,"text":"委員杜絕浪費讓資源用在真正需要的政策以人民的權利以國家的未來為核心"},{"start":3027.594,"end":3047.527,"text":"只有穩定與高效的施政才能讓台灣進步讓人民安定樂業讓我們攜手努力共同捍衛台灣的權利守護台灣台灣加油人民加油謝謝"},{"start":3052.426,"end":3053.267,"text":"最近我國棒球在"},{"start":3072.566,"end":3100.503,"text":"世界上得到最好的成績世界冠軍我們的賴清德總統難得的展現出了高度他說無論是中華隊、台灣隊都是我國的棒球隊得到勝利都是全體國人的榮耀以及棒球員的榮耀這件事情實際上就是一種團結台灣但是很可惜的是民進黨本質就是喜歡分化台灣喜歡給人家扣帽子最近我提了一個民防法的修正案"},{"start":3101.303,"end":3127.79,"text":"民進黨馬上就說這在掏空國防這在害台灣這個是中共協作者真的很可惜啊台灣沒有好好理性討論公共政策的空間只要你的意見跟民進黨不一樣你就會被扣上紅帽子好像只有他們愛台灣你都在害台灣我修的名方法是把學生加入學校防護團這一條把它修掉讓學生免加入學校防護團"},{"start":3128.49,"end":3128.73,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":3147.683,"end":3163.401,"text":"一個15歲的學生為什麼當打仗的時候他不能夠在家長旁邊為什麼不能在家裡跟家長在一起而必須要去運送物資、資源前線民進黨為什麼就是要讓這些15、16、17歲這些學生去上戰場呢"},{"start":3167.366,"end":3186.334,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":3192.196,"end":3209.591,"text":"主一個教師團隊到學校裡面教學生怎麼自我防衛在捷運上遇到壞人怎麼辦平常怎麼自救現在就可以做這個東西到底跟學校防護團有什麼關係第三我就問請問一下現在哪一個學校有學校防護團"},{"start":3211.014,"end":3222.682,"text":"我問教育部 教育部說不知道請問內政部我問內政部 內政部說不知道請問警政署代表說現在沒有一個機關知道學校有沒有學校防護團"},{"start":3223.953,"end":3252.737,"text":"那如果你覺得學校保護團這麼重要為什麼現在沒有人知道這個組織也沒有刻意去組這個組織那為什麼組不起來因為例如上個月教育部要求學校去發青年扶勤同意書結果沒有人要填沒有人要參加家長恐慌最後國防部長說不要再發了所以你繼續做的事情就是找學生麻煩找家長麻煩希望民進黨懸崖了嘛"},{"start":3257.125,"end":3285.064,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的發言接下來請登記第8號羅志強委員請發言12月3號下個禮拜二下午請大家到凱達格安大道我們一起反廢死"},{"start":3287.083,"end":3312.897,"text":"12月3日下個禮拜二是施奪獎的一位女老師她被殺害的10週年10年前的12月3日這一位一輩子坐獄英才得到學生、家長非常大的肯定得到了施奪獎為人正直、善良、奉公守法的一位好老師"},{"start":3314.532,"end":3341.938,"text":"結果她就在路上被一位流性嫌犯用極其殘暴的方式性侵殺害無冤無仇只是洩憤十年來這位女老師她埋骨成冤十年來這位女老師的家屬在暗夜裡哭泣"},{"start":3343.339,"end":3369.268,"text":"但等了10年這位流性嫌犯被5次判處死刑最後這位流性嫌犯終於等來救星了天降救星就是這些可惡的大法官當大法官做出了實質廢死的判決定下了超高的死刑門檻之後馬上"},{"start":3372.605,"end":3401.835,"text":"大法官廢死的實質判決做出來一個禮拜最高法院就做出了改判這位流行嫌犯免死確判最高法院非常誠實他直接告訴大家為什麼五次判死的流行嫌犯會改判免死因為他們是遵照大法官憲法判決的意思判的"},{"start":3403.621,"end":3431.349,"text":"所以就在那一刻這位女老師的冤屈從此再也無人能選這位女老師的家屬從此也要繼續夜夜哭泣過去這麼多年來我們看到我們的刑事司法已經完全向加害人傾靠各位要不要看看法院上的場景"},{"start":3432.858,"end":3433.198,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":3460.789,"end":3462.21,"text":"主席、各位委員、媒體朋友,大家早安。"},{"start":3478.945,"end":3492.823,"text":"勞動部爆發了嚴重的職場霸凌事件造成一位優秀同仁以死明志也燒出了我們整個政府部門都有霸凌事件的現象昨天機關署提出報告並懲處"},{"start":3495.006,"end":3512.074,"text":"教育部海科館至今報告都交不出來衛福部今天下午也有一個記者會整個制度的崩壞來自於領導人的縱容卓院長要求一週內提出檢討報告而今天就是公布真相的日子"},{"start":3512.614,"end":3530.877,"text":"到底還有多少在基層認真打拼卻遭受不法精神損害的同仁這些加害者又是仗著什麼事背後又有什麼靠山才敢如此的無法無天這些都是我們政府應該要說清楚、講明白而且立即改善的事情"},{"start":3531.858,"end":3542.029,"text":"結果我們看新任的勞動部長雖然是新官上任三把火也讓原本有所期待希望有所改革的勞動部全體基層握緊拳頭心頭三把火因為部長要求週末加班開會馬上就被吹哨者爆料"},{"start":3550.658,"end":3574.305,"text":"他自己出來說只有部長本人是連續週末上兩天班其他人只要來報告一個半小時而已會說出這樣子的話真的就是換了位子也換了腦袋任何有工作經驗的人都知道台上一分鐘、台下十年工上台跟主管報告難道都不用準備資料的嗎"},{"start":3575.485,"end":3600.533,"text":"當主管、上司下達開會的任務難道員工可以到現場之後才開始準備才開始做簡報嗎表面上說得很好聽只要開會一個半小時難道所有的同仁就住在你勞動部附近走路就會到都不用計算通勤時間了嗎怎麼會接了部長位子不到一周又犯下如此低級的錯誤呢"},{"start":3602.393,"end":3622.772,"text":"部長前幾天說給各單位告訴基層同仁有什麼問題都可以反映給部長還提供自己個人專屬的email、手機號碼請問今天基層的同仁看到週末要加班要跟部長報告的會議通知又有多少人真的敢傳簡訊給部長呢?"},{"start":3625.074,"end":3649.122,"text":"根本就不會有早就死心了吧因為部長本人就是做出最不合理要求的對象基層做事的人又怎麼敢認真的反應問題呢因此本席今天想要問大家如果施加霸凌行為增加精神損害的人就是部長本人請問我們基層同胞又該如何是好呢謝謝"},{"start":3653.174,"end":3657.443,"text":"謝謝陳金威委員發言接下來請登記第十位楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":3670.466,"end":3684.947,"text":"委員楊瓊發言台積電的互救台積電前董事長劉德英先生指出如果台積電最先進的技術在美國生產可能會賠上了幾百億"},{"start":3687.369,"end":3711.638,"text":"最先進的產品在臺灣製造才是雙贏這是劉德英首度針對於先進技術在美生產的可怕後果最近拜登政府趕在下臺之前核准了台積電66億元的補助美國商務部更強調希望台積電將新制的包括二奈米、包括A16要盡快在美國落地"},{"start":3712.598,"end":3725.735,"text":"商務部的新聞稿更引用了台積電董事長劉哲佳先生的書法他說,台積電首度表示,會加速說明美國的布局,台積電還要承諾超額利潤將依分佔值"},{"start":3730.681,"end":3747.276,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等18人、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲"},{"start":3752.381,"end":3764.909,"text":"委員劉靜熙等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員劉靜熙等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員劉靜熙等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員劉靜熙等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員劉靜熙等19"},{"start":3774.736,"end":3799.685,"text":"台積電美國廠即將要投產所以能夠讓董事就近的來勘查這個新廠的運作情況但是我們也考慮到曾經公開表示台灣搶走美國晶片產業的川普明顯對於台灣半導體產業不友善而且不難想像台積電的這項決定也是要向川普先生來示好"},{"start":3800.325,"end":3815.767,"text":"所以因此我們看到創辦人張忠謀先生表示美國製造成本太高也缺乏相關的人才直言赴美投資昂貴、浪費又白忙一場以及劉德英先生的一個警告"},{"start":3816.067,"end":3825.692,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":3845.183,"end":3849.968,"text":"留給我們所有臺灣年輕人的發展、前景以及我們的經濟環境"},{"start":5410.135,"end":5432.918,"text":"報告院會我們現在繼續開會首先我們歡迎來自新竹地區社建竹南區福倫社及台北福倫社所有的好朋友我們立法院熱情歡迎我們請秘書長報告出席人數報告院會出席委員87人已足法定人數"},{"start":5433.988,"end":5443.091,"text":"我們現在開會先處理草野黨團協商結論請議事人員宣讀議法院黨團協商結論時間113年11月28日下午20時30分地點紅樓101會議室決定事項一各黨團同意12月17日下午邀請審計部審計長列席報告112年度中央政務總決算審核報告審核經過並被諮詢"},{"start":5463.919,"end":5483.977,"text":"諮詢人數由國民黨黨團推派4人、民進黨黨團推派4人、臺灣民眾黨黨團推派1人進行諮詢順序依例授權議事處辦理名單請於12月16日星期一中午12時前送至議事處會診議案詢答完畢後即將審查各黨團同意不提出復議"},{"start":5485.072,"end":5496.515,"text":"當日會議不處理臨時提案主持人韓國瑜、協商代表柯建銘、吳思堯、蔡依瑜、黃國昌、吳春成、林思敏、王洪威、曼玉珍、傅坤祺宣讀完畢"},{"start":5497.808,"end":5518.786,"text":"請問院會對以上草野黨團協商結論有無異議?沒有異議,我們就通過。113年11月28日草野黨團協商結論,今決定如下。一、各黨團同意12月17日星期二下午邀請審計部審計長列席報告一百一十二年度中央政府總決算審核報告"},{"start":5519.906,"end":5545.265,"text":"審核經過並被質詢質詢人數由國民黨團推派4位民進黨團推派4位台灣民眾黨團推派1位名單請於12月16日星期一中午12點前交議事處會診議案詢答完畢後即將審查各黨團同意不提出復議當日會議不處理臨時提案現在我們進行報告事項"},{"start":5546.851,"end":5550.004,"text":"請秘書長宣讀第二會期第十次會議：事由："},{"start":5554.474,"end":5577.103,"text":"宣讀立法院第11屆第2會期第14會議意思錄時間中華民國103年11月22日上午9時至9時35分時時至下午1時55分地點本院議場書記委員、執行委員昭之等107人、請教委員、國務委員盧君等6人、主席院長韓國瑜報告事項第一案宣讀本院第11屆第2會期第9次會議意思錄決定"},{"start":5580.024,"end":5606.276,"text":"第2至31、31至47、49至62、60至74、76至231案均決定交互相關委員會審查或交互相關委員會第32、63、75案均決定經貿獨與相關提案併案協商第48案決定同意撤回第232案為社會福利及衛生環境委員會所提示報告案執行事項甲、行政會"},{"start":5607.677,"end":5622.972,"text":"部分十一件與本院委員執行部分事件：討論事項第一案決議本案及修正動議並同交互黨團協商第二案決議通過第三案決議,下次會進行主條討論其他事項一、113年11月20日草委黨團協商結論一項,後辯論議程提議"},{"start":5629.378,"end":5633,"text":"民進黨黨團一案不宜通過、國民黨黨團、臺灣民眾黨團分別提案一案均予以通過、臺灣民眾黨團提議延長開會時間予以通過、宣讀完畢"},{"start":5646.192,"end":5659.075,"text":"報院會針對第二會期第十次會議的意思錄並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處我們現在作以下決定第二會期第十次會議意思錄確定請宣讀第二案"},{"start":5659.707,"end":5679.39,"text":"第二案、本院委員葉元智等19人擬具公民投票法第23條條文修正草案、財修委員會見、交內政委員會審查、宣讀完畢第三案、本院委員葉元智等19人擬廢止、行政院農業委員會農糧署組織條例、財修委員會見、交司法及法制進行兩委會審查、宣讀完畢"},{"start":5680.771,"end":5701.332,"text":"第4案本院委員葉元植等19人擬廢紙、行政院農業委員會農業金融局組織條例、程序委員會意見、交司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查宣讀完畢第5案本院委員葉元植等19人擬廢紙、行政院農業委員會組織條例、程序委員會意見、交司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":5702.873,"end":5725.112,"text":"第6案、委員林倩琦等19人擬具《國民體育法》第38條條文修正草案、財修委員會見教育及文化委員會審查。宣告完畢。第7案、委員林倩琦等21人擬具《中央行政機關組織基準法》第29條及第39條條文修正草案、財修委員會見教育及文化委員會審查。宣告完畢。"},{"start":5725.779,"end":5740.329,"text":"報告委員會報告事項第7案現有國民黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商請問委員會有無異議沒有異議我們本案禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商下一案"},{"start":5740.848,"end":5761.735,"text":"第8案本院委員林宜瑾等21人擬具《運動部全民運動署組織法草案》、《程序委員會間教育司法及法制教育及文化聯委委員會審查》、宣言完畢第9案本院委員林宜瑾等21人擬具《國際運動科學中心順勢條例部分條文修正草案》、《程序委員會間教育司法及法制教育及文化聯委委員會審查》、宣言完畢"},{"start":5763.115,"end":5789.555,"text":"第10案、本院委員廖偉翔等17人擬具、婚姻稅條第12條條文修正草案、財修委員會見交財政委員會審查、宣讀完畢第11案、本院委員邱若驊等21人擬具、農業保險法第二條及第10條條文修正草案、財修委員會見交經濟財政兩委員會審查、宣讀完畢第12案、本院委員邱若驊等21人擬具、婚姻稅條第11條條文修正草案、財修委員會見交財政委員會審查、宣讀完畢"},{"start":5793.078,"end":5809.33,"text":"第13案、本院委員鄉若驊等20人擬具《中華民國刑法》第212條及第214條條文修正草案、陳秀蓉會見交司法及法庭委員會審查,宣傳完畢。第14案、本院委員陳雪珊等18人擬具《領導建設條例》第15條條文修正草案、陳秀蓉會見交經濟委員會審查,宣傳完畢。"},{"start":5814.153,"end":5843.131,"text":"第15案,本院委員陳學生等19人擬具《領導建設條例》第16條條文修正草案,陳修委員會間交經濟委員會審查,宣傳併。第16案,本院委員翁曉琳等18人擬具《領導建設條例》第12條第1條文修正草案,陳修委員會間交經濟委員會審查,宣傳併。第17案,本院委員翁曉琳等17人擬具《平原地區學校教育發展條例》第5條條文修正草案,陳修委員會間交教育及文化委員會審查,"},{"start":5844.831,"end":5865.341,"text":"會議通過下議案。第18案。本院委員翁曉琳等17人擬具公教人員保險法第12條及第35條條文修正草案、柴修園會監教育司法及法治委員會審查。會議通過下議案。第19案。本院委員翁曉琳等17人擬具公務人員申請法第8條及第12條條文修正草案、柴修園會監教育司法及法治委員會審查。會議通過下議案。"},{"start":5867.242,"end":5887.888,"text":"第20案本院委員翁曉琳等18人擬具公務人員退休之前撫恤法第七條條文修正草案、財修委員會監教司法及法治委員會審查宣言完畢第21案本院委員翁曉琳等18人擬具學校本人及其所屬私立學校教職員退休撫恤離職之前條例第八條條文修正草案、"},{"start":5888.508,"end":5903.586,"text":"財修委員會見交司法及法治教育及文化聯委委員會審查宣准完畢委員通過下言第22案本院委員楊崇義等21人擬具《動物保護法》第25條及第25條審議條文修正草案財修委員會見交親近委員會審查宣准完畢委員通過下言"},{"start":5903.846,"end":5921.522,"text":"第23案：本院委員楊崇英等21人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、教育及文化委員會審查,宣布完畢。第24案：本院委員楊崇英等21人擬具:「教育部組織法第二條及第五條條文修正草案、教育及文化委員會審查,宣布完畢。"},{"start":5925.385,"end":5946.777,"text":"第25案：本院委員楊崇英等21人擬具《體育暨運動發展部全民運動署組織法草案》採訊委員會堅焦司法及法制教育及文化聯盟委員會審查、宣讀還併。第26案：本院委員楊崇英等21人擬具《國家運動產業發展中心修正條例草案》、採訊委員會堅焦司法及法制教育及文化聯盟委員會審查、宣讀還併。"},{"start":5948.018,"end":5967.859,"text":"第27案：本院委員楊瓊欣等21人擬具《老年農民福利基尼亞專行條例第四條條文修正草案》、採取委員會堅交《生物福利及衛生環境經濟內捲三委員會審查》,宣布外閉。第28案：本院委員賴瑞龍等16人擬具《國家安全法部分條文修正草案》、採取委員會堅交《內政委員會審查》,宣布外閉。"},{"start":5968.94,"end":5998.044,"text":"第29案本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具《產業創新條例部分條文修正草案》強修委員會堅交經濟財政聯盟委員會審查宣言完畢第30案本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具《道路交通管理處罰條例第12條及第12條之一條文修正草案》強修委員會堅交交通委員會審查宣言完畢第31案本院委員陳素月等17人擬具《維土計劃法第45條條文修正草案》強修委員會堅交內政委員會審查宣言完畢"},{"start":6000.552,"end":6014.72,"text":"報告事項第31案現有民進黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商請問院會有無異議沒有異議我們本案禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商"},{"start":6015.714,"end":6032.833,"text":"第32案、本院委員王世堅等19人擬具、萬一間條例第4條及第21條條文修正草案、強修委員會堅交司法及法治委員會審查、宣讀完畢無異通過下案第33案、本院委員陳廷飛等17人擬具、文統計劃法第45條條文修正草案、強修委員會堅交內政委員會審查、宣讀完畢報言會"},{"start":6036.587,"end":6048.892,"text":"報告事項第33案現由民進黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商請問院會有無異議沒有異議本案禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商下議案"},{"start":6049.366,"end":6060.552,"text":"第34案、本院委員陳廷飛等18人擬具《動物保護法》第5條、第20條及第25條條文修正草案、承修委員會見交經濟委員會審查、訓斷外幣。第35案、本院委員陳廷飛等16人擬具《農產品市場交易法》第6條及第35條條文修正草案、"},{"start":6066.955,"end":6096.256,"text":"財修委員會間教育經濟委員會審查、宣讀完畢第36案、本院委員陳寧菲等16人擬具《青年基本法》草案、財修委員會間教育教育及文化委員會審查、宣讀完畢第37案、本院委員張雅琳等16人擬具《行政院組織法》第3條條文修正草案、財修委員會間教育司法及法治委員會審查、宣讀完畢第38案、本院委員張雅琳等16人擬具《中央行政機關組織基準法》第29條及第39條條文修正草案、"},{"start":6096.736,"end":6114.416,"text":"佳修委員會兼教育司法及法治委員會審查宣傳完畢報告議會報告事項第38案現由民進黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案並按協商請問議會有無異議沒有異議本案禁服二讀與相關提案並按協商下議案"},{"start":6114.824,"end":6135.279,"text":"第39案：本院委員張雅琳等16人擬具《國家運動科學中心設置條例部分條文修正草案》、強修委員會堅焦司法及法治、教育及文化聯盟委員會審查、宣讀完畢。第40案：本院委員張雅琳等16人擬具《國家運動產業發展中心設置條例草案》、強修委員會堅焦司法及法治、教育及文化聯盟委員會審查、宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6136.44,"end":6157.946,"text":"第41案：本院委員張雅琳等16人擬具《國家運動訓練中心設置條例修正草案》採取委員會堅焦司法及法律教育及文化聯盟委員會審查 宣言完畢第42案：本院委員徐欣盈等21人擬具《老人福利法第25條條文修正草案》採取委員會堅焦社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣言完畢第43案：本院委員何欣淳等18人擬具"},{"start":6160.547,"end":6185.948,"text":"道路交通管理處罰條例第12條條文修正草案、財修委員會兼交交通委員會審查宣言完畢第44案本院委員和新選等16人擬具《老年農民福利津貼算寫條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案》、財修委員會兼交社會福利及衛生環境經濟內政三委員會審查宣言完畢第45案本院委員和新選等17人擬具《社會救助法部分條文修正草案》、"},{"start":6186.408,"end":6203.042,"text":"委員王宏偉等12人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員王宏偉等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員王宏偉等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員王宏偉等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員王宏偉等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員王宏偉等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員王宏偉等22人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員王宏偉"},{"start":6211.269,"end":6219.874,"text":"第48案：本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具《外溢間條例第四條條文修正草案》、財修委員會兼交司法及法律委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":6230.479,"end":6243.708,"text":"報院會報告事項第49案現有國民黨黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商請問院會有無異議沒有異議本案禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商"},{"start":6244.554,"end":6271.628,"text":"第52案本院委員黃傑等17人擬具《台灣地區遇到對地區人民關係條例第九條之三條文修正草案》財修委員會建交內政委員會審查宣傳完畢第51案本院委員傅坤琦等19人擬具《勞工保險條例第59條條文修正草案》財修委員會建交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳完畢第52案本院委員林思敏等17人擬具《道路交通管理處罰條例第12條條文修正草案》、"},{"start":6272.228,"end":6295.614,"text":"強修委員會堅交消動委員會審查、宣讀完畢第53案本院委員林思明等17人擬具《中華民國新法》第211條及第212條條文修正草案強修委員會堅交司法及法治委員會審查、宣讀完畢第54案本院委員張志倫等17人擬具《內政部新住民發展署組事法》草案強修委員會堅交司法及法治內政兩委員會審查、宣讀完畢"},{"start":6297.134,"end":6317.31,"text":"第55案、本院委員張志倫等17人擬具《內政部組織法》第五條條文修正草案、強修委員會監教司法及法律內政兩委員會審查、宣讀完畢第56案、本院委員張志倫等16人擬具《中央行政機關組織基準法》第33條及第39條條文修正草案、強修委員會監教司法及法律委員會審查、宣讀完畢"},{"start":6318.01,"end":6329.879,"text":"報院會報告事項第56案現有國民黨黨團提侵服二讀與相關提案併案協商請問院會沒有異議本案侵服二讀與相關提案併案協商"},{"start":6330.762,"end":6348.197,"text":"第57案本院委員盧憲憶等18人擬具地方制度法部分條文修正草案、長修委員會監教內政司法及法局兩委員會審查宣讀完畢第58案本院委員盧憲憶等18人擬具無讀經話法第七條、第35條及第45條條文修正草案、長修委員會監教內政委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":6350.959,"end":6363.15,"text":"報告院會報告事項第58案先有國民黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商"},{"start":6364.008,"end":6391.549,"text":"第59案、北域委員徐曉欣等21人擬具、地方制度法第55條條文修正草案、懲修委員會監教內政司法及法治兩委員會審查、宣讀完畢第60案、北域委員徐曉欣等21人擬具、全民國防正義法第8條第9條及第11條條文修正草案、懲修委員會監教外交及國防委員會審查、宣讀完畢第61案、北域委員徐曉欣等16人擬具、全民防衛動員準備法第15條條文修正草案、"},{"start":6392.109,"end":6411.082,"text":"懲修委員會堅交外交及國防委員會審查 宣讀完畢法院會報告事項第62案現有國民黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案並按根正第62案本院委員徐宇貞等24人擬具《國土計劃法》增內第32條是一條文草案懲修委員會堅交內政委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6418.154,"end":6430.169,"text":"官員會報告事項第62案先由國民黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商請問院會有異?沒有異本案禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商下一項"},{"start":6430.612,"end":6451.009,"text":"第63案本院委員林宜瑾等20人擬具《國家紀念日集結日實施法草案》採修委員會堅交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢會議通過下議案第64案本院委員林宜瑾等23人擬具《國家運動訓練中心設施條例部分條文修正草案》採修委員會堅交司法及法律教育及文化聯委委員會審查宣讀完畢會議通過下議案"},{"start":6451.269,"end":6471.818,"text":"第65案本院委員黃孟凱等16人擬具《國家運動訓練中心順勢條例》修正草案採取委員會見教司法及法術教育及文化聯委委員會審查宣讀完畢第66案本院委員黃孟凱等16人擬具《國家運動科學中心順勢條例部分條文修正草案採取委員會見教司法及法術教育及文化聯委委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":6472.938,"end":6500.931,"text":"第67案、本院委員洪孟凱等16人擬具《國家運動產業發展中心設置條例草案》、程序委員會監教司法及法律教育及文化聯盟委員會審查、宣讀完畢第69案、本院委員吳立華等16人擬具《運動部組織法》草案、程序委員會監教司法及法律教育及文化聯盟委員會審查、宣讀完畢第69案、本院委員吳佩儀等19人擬具《台灣地區、道路地區人民關係條例》第9條至3條文修正草案、"},{"start":6501.531,"end":6515.024,"text":"陳修永會建交內政委員會審查、宣讀完畢委員通過下議案本院委員林月琴等18人擬具《大陸交通管理處罰條例》第12條吉利條文修正草案陳修永會建交交通委員會審查、宣讀完畢"},{"start":6516.425,"end":6542.583,"text":"第71案本院臺灣民眾黨老團凝聚醫療法第103條條文修正草案採修委員會間交社會福利優先環境委員會審查,宣讀完畢第71案本院臺灣民眾黨老團凝聚檢疫人壽保險法第20條條文修正草案採修委員會間交財政委員會審查,宣讀完畢第73案本院臺灣民眾黨老團凝聚保險法第128條條文修正草案採修委員會間交財政委員會審查,宣讀完畢"},{"start":6545.225,"end":6548.587,"text":"第74案本院臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具《不將殲滅保護法》第32條、第33條及第34條條文修正草案強修委員會監教司法及法制委員會審查宣傳完畢"},{"start":6556.636,"end":6558.458,"text":"委員吳立華等21條紙一條文修正草案 、委員吳立華等21條紙一條紙一條文修正草案"},{"start":6580.577,"end":6605.442,"text":"第77案本院委員林月琴擬撤回檢定之公益戒避者保護保藏案案、強修委員會建議行政委員會同意撤回、宣讀完畢第78案行政院罕見審議海關進口稅責部分稅責修正草案案、強修委員會建交財政委員會審查、宣讀完畢第79案行政院罕見本院推舉11名至15名社會公正人士組成高級中等項學校課程審議會委員審查會、"},{"start":6607.702,"end":6632.28,"text":"裁修委員會堅交黨團協商會議處理﹑宣讀外幣 。第81案﹑嫌疑行為修正﹑警察人員因公傷亡無用盡﹑發給辦法第五條條文﹑裁修委員會堅交內政委員會﹑宣讀外幣 。第81案﹑嫌疑考試院行為修正﹑交通事業人員阻擊競選員及施及競選阻擊自衛訓練辦法第十條條文﹑裁修委員會堅交司法及法律交通兩委員會﹑宣讀外幣 。"},{"start":6633.641,"end":6648.607,"text":"第8選案前進院考修院海外廢止公務人員周秀日實施犯法強修委員會建交司法計劃支援會宣讀完畢第83案內政部海外修正、內政部建築研究所實驗設施技術服務收費標準第6條、第8條、第9條條文集第3條複表"},{"start":6650.948,"end":6667.703,"text":"裁修委員會監交內政委員會、宣讀外幣第84案 內政部海外修正內政部消防署編制表裁修委員會監交司法及法律內政兩委員會、宣讀外幣第85案 內政部海外修正農民主業災害保險職業傷病審查本法第1條及第9條條文"},{"start":6668.624,"end":6686.972,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「"},{"start":6693.195,"end":6709.225,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「"},{"start":6713.287,"end":6738.236,"text":"農業部海外廢紙、小小履歷、農糧產品、雜糧及特用作物類、蔬菜類、水果類嚴重費用補助方式採訊委員會見交經濟委員會 宣讀外幣第91案 農業部海外修正農業部農田水利署新竹管理署農田水利事事辦委採訊委員會見交經濟委員會 宣讀外幣第92案 農業部海外修正特定植物檢疫物輸入核准辦法第十一條之一條文採訊委員會見交經濟委員會"},{"start":6740.117,"end":6742.498,"text":"委員吳亦通過下議案委員吳亦通過下議案吳亦通過下議案"},{"start":6761.224,"end":6771.653,"text":"第95案公務人員保障及培訓委員會行為修正公務人員保障及培訓委員會編制表並自113.9一日生效採訊委員會間交付司法及法治委員會宣傳完畢第96案環境部行為廢止協進院環境防護署法國委員會組織歸程採訊委員會間交付司法及法治生物衛福理事會日生環境兩委委員會"},{"start":6782.703,"end":6783.845,"text":"委員吳亦通過下一案"},{"start":6798.42,"end":6823.263,"text":"佈院會本案國民黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境外交及國防兩委員會審查下一案第九十八案衛生福利部行文修正尋覓健康保險新醫療資源不足地區改善方案巡迴地點隸屬要事法第102條所稱無要聖元職員職聘員地區列表部分副表採訪委員會間交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣言為畢"},{"start":6823.943,"end":6831,"text":"報院會本案由國民黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查報院會第99案至第163案"},{"start":6834.67,"end":6843.576,"text":"我們會請依序宣讀其中第99至101、103、105至121、123、144、159案台灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀之後以上提案均改交相關委員會審查其餘的議案均照程序委員會意見通過請問院會有無異議沒有異議我們宣讀之後通過請宣讀"},{"start":6864.008,"end":6884.148,"text":"第99案內政部第100案原住民組委員會、第101案及第102案海洋委員會、第103案及第104案國防部、第105案教育部、第106案及第107案文化部、第108案核能安全委員會、第109案及第110案國家科學及技術委員會、第111案及第113案數位發展部、"},{"start":6884.648,"end":6913.007,"text":"第1、4案及第1、5案交通部、第1、6案國家通訊傳播委員會、第1、7案及第1、8案司法院、第1、9案衛生福利部、第1、2、0案及第1、2、1案環境部、第1、2、2案至第1、3、6案衛生福利部、第1、3、7案至第1、5、6案金融監督管理委員會、第1、5、7案至第1、6、1案行政院主席總署、第1、6、2案及第1、6、3案審計部、海外各年度相關運算、113年度中央政府總運算等運算決議分別解送相關報告"},{"start":6915.529,"end":6923.395,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案第164案以下,請一併宣讀。宣讀之後,均與被查。准與被查,請宣讀。」"},{"start":6924.195,"end":6943.793,"text":"第164案及第165案委本院社會福利及衛生環境交易局王煌委員會函委員會將負負處理食品業務管理署預算動向書面報告案等案業已處理完均均同意通知第166案委本院議事處會報各黨團推配組成國家發展基金不當投資暨管理順勢調查委員會委員名單"},{"start":6945.975,"end":6971.765,"text":"諮詢事項甲、行政院答覆部分、行政院函送本院合委員辛純等所聽諮詢之書面答覆供9件以本院委員諮詢部分本院羅委員志強向行政院提出諮詢公案件宣讀完畢委員會我們現在進行討論事項之前我們先處理變更議程之提議並截止收案我們首先處理民進黨黨團提議變更議程議案"},{"start":6974.571,"end":6996.627,"text":"請議事人員宣讀提議內容本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆電話會期第11次會議討論事項擬請警線列如複表示案是否有當進行公決宣讀完畢請問院會對本案有無異議有異議我們要進行表決我們按鈴7分鐘請議場人員分發表決卡現在開始按鈴"},{"start":7425.613,"end":7442.882,"text":"報告委員會請問委員是不是都拿到表決卡都拿到好謝謝針對本案現有民進黨黨團體要求記名表決記名表決贊成民進黨黨團體變更議程請按贊成反對請按反對時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7523.55,"end":7541.498,"text":"委員報告表決結果出席104位、贊成46位、反對58位、贊成者少數本案不通過報告現在進行討論事項第一案學生輔導法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":7542.418,"end":7547.52,"text":"本案今天會期第十四會議決議下次會議進行逐條討論報院會現在我們進行逐條討論學生輔導法請宣讀第一條"},{"start":7556.943,"end":7577.707,"text":"第1條為促進與維護學生身心健康及全能發展並健全學生輔導工作特制立本法學生輔導依本法制規定但特殊教育法或少年矯正學校相關法律另有規定者從其規定宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過報應會張祺凱委員聲明剛才表決與台灣民眾黨黨團意見一致列入公報記錄請宣讀第二條"},{"start":7586.129,"end":7605.619,"text":"第二條本法所申主管機關在中央為教育部、在學校是為職校市政府、在縣市為縣市政府、軍事學校與預備學校其主管機關為國防部、警察各級學校其主管機關為內政部、少年久生學校其主管機關為防務部本法所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關業務時各單機關應配合辦理宣讀完畢"},{"start":7608.3,"end":7635.479,"text":"叫審查會條文通過請宣讀第三條第三條本法用詞定義如下一、學校指公司地各級學校、軍事學校、預備學校、警察各級學校及少年矯正學校二、輔導教師指符合高級中等下學校輔導教師資格依法令任用於高級中等下學校從事學生輔導工作者三、專業輔導人員指具有臨床心理師、諮商心理師或社會工作師證書"},{"start":7636.56,"end":7656.373,"text":"由主管機關或學校依法僅用總是學生輔導工作者前向第二款輔導教師資格由中央主管機關定制少年挑戰學校得不是用第四條第二項至第五項第五條及第八條第二項會與教長代表之規定宣讀完畢照協商條文通過請宣讀第四條"},{"start":7657.23,"end":7675.523,"text":"第4條各級主管機關為執行學生輔導行政工作應指定學生輔導專責單位或專責人員辦理各項學生輔導工作之規劃及執行事項高級中等以下學校主管機關應設學生輔導資商中心其中如下依統籌規劃配置及運用專業輔導人員"},{"start":7676.824,"end":7699.422,"text":"二、提供學校嚴重適應困難、嚴重行為偏差及嚴重自我傷害學生之輔導諮商轉介及轉型服務、三、提供學校輔導學生之個人及系統評估、輔導諮商資源轉介服務、四、統籌調辦專業輔導人員、支援學校處理危機事件之心理評估、輔導諮商及資源連結之直接或間接服務、五、"},{"start":7700.643,"end":7727.313,"text":"支援學校教師及學生家長專業諮詢服務六、支援學校辦理系統整合之個案會議七、激進輔導處域成效評估及嚴重個案追蹤管理八、辦理專業輔導人員之專業增能、研習及督導工作並得協助主管機關規劃輔導教師之專業增能及研習工作九、協助主管機關推動重大學生輔導政策十、其他與學生輔導相關訓練之規劃及推動"},{"start":7730.214,"end":7745.482,"text":"學生輔導諮商中心應配置主管人員、專業輔導人員、專業輔導人員之督導及行政能力主管人員應由學校主管機關領選具輔導專業專長者擔任學生輔導諮商中心之組織建設規劃、設施設備、推動運作、人員資格、領選、商界、培訓、獎勵與學校之協調聯繫及各級主管機關對學生輔導諮商中心之督導等事項舉辦法"},{"start":7758.348,"end":7780.154,"text":"由中央主管機關會商指霞市縣市主管機關定制為利學生輔導諮商中心運作提升專業及任職意願同時提供學生完備制輔導諮商管道各級主管機關兼因困獵預算並逐年由中央主管機關會商指霞市縣市主管機關檢討並調整運行策略以服務本項意志宣讀完畢"},{"start":7785.152,"end":7805.443,"text":"照協商條文通過范雲委員、陳培宇委員、羅廷偉委員、葛如軍委員分別提出提案第四條之一均不予增訂報院會林黛化委員發表聲明對剛才表決與民進黨黨團意見一致列入公報記錄第五條請宣讀"},{"start":7808.978,"end":7836.093,"text":"第5條各級主管機關為促進學生輔導工作發展應召開學生輔導諮詢會其任務如下一、提供有關學生輔導政策及法規性格之意見二、協調所主管學校有關機關構推展學生輔導相關工作這事項三、研議實施學生輔導措施之發展方向四、提供學生輔導相關工作推展策略、方案、計劃等事項之意見五、提供學生輔導課程、教材、活動規劃、研發等事項之意見"},{"start":7839.135,"end":7856.607,"text":"編導各目的事業主管機關並結合民間資源共同推動學生輔導工作其其他有關推展學生輔導相關工作之諮詢事項前項諮詢會是召集人一人由各級主管機關首長擔任其餘委員由各級主管機關首長就下列人員聘兼之"},{"start":7857.367,"end":7878.128,"text":"一、相關專業人員包括臨床心理師、諮商心理師、社會工作室及精神科醫師二、監管以外之相關學者、專家三、教育行政人員四、學校行政人員包括輔導主任五、教師代表包括輔導教師及特殊教育教師六、家長代表七、學生代表八、相關金關購貨專業團體代表"},{"start":7879.97,"end":7899.331,"text":"前項教育行政委員及學校行政委員代表人數合計不得超過委員總額之二分之一任意卸免委員人數不得少於委員總額三分之一第一項學生輔導諮詢會議之委員林雪組織基於運作方式之規定由各級主管境外定制宣讀完畢"},{"start":7900.632,"end":7925.825,"text":"照學生條文通過請宣讀增訂第五條之一第五條之一學生之輔導應以維護兒童及少年最佳利為原則其決定涉及不同主體之權利衝突時應優先考量兒童及少年權利及之保障並採取符合兒童及少年最佳利之解釋輔導學生之過程應特別關注兒童及少年表達意見"},{"start":7926.445,"end":7954.657,"text":"全新健康受教育及其他相關權利並應關注兒童及少年之身份認同、家庭維繫、受照顧、保護與安全及其他相關需求具有心理師證書之專業輔導人員對未成年學生執行輔導諮商業務時經該學生同意並由學校張開個案會議評估該學生有輔導諮商需求會符合兒童及少年最佳利益得不受心理施法第十九條規定之限制"},{"start":7955.237,"end":7976.876,"text":"在未經法定代理人統一下執行宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第6條第6條學校應視學生身心狀況及需求提供發展性輔導、進入性輔導或處於性輔導之三級輔導前項鎖定三級輔導之內容如下依發展性輔導為促進學生心理健康、社會適應及適性發展"},{"start":7978.198,"end":7998.52,"text":"針對全校學生訂定學校輔導工作計劃、實施生活輔導、學習輔導及生涯輔導相關措施,而介入性輔導,針對學生有個別化輔導需求或適應欠佳、情緒困擾、行為偏差或遭受重大創傷經驗及早辨識發現及時介入,以期需求訂定個別化之輔導班或計劃。"},{"start":8000.021,"end":8018.416,"text":"提供諮詢、個別諮商、小團體輔導及其他有助於學生輔導措施並提供評估轉介機制進行個案管理及輔導三、處遇性輔導針對學生嚴重學校性困難或遭遇問題行為偏差重大違規行為或有其他需持續輔導失去使用者"},{"start":8019.517,"end":8045.851,"text":"配合其需求結合心理治療、社會工作、家庭輔導、職能治療、法律服務、精神醫療等各類資源與專業服務提供整合性服務高級重點向學校予有緊急個案經學校會同學生輔導諮商中心照看專案或個案會議評估卻有必要後得轉介儲育性輔導宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀增訂第六條之一"},{"start":8046.988,"end":8074.641,"text":"委員李六條之一學校應針對介入性輔導及處於性輔導之學生列冊追蹤輔導學校得受開個人會議針對檢向學生之個別特性、訂定輔導方案或計劃等相關措施或其中等下學校應邀請學校行政委員、相關教師及輔導教師參與訂定輔導方案或計劃等相關措施並得釋學生輔導需求邀請專業輔導人員、學生家長或學生本人參與"},{"start":8076.162,"end":8094.259,"text":"專科以上學校應邀請學校行政人員、相關教師及專業輔導人員參與訂定輔導分人或計劃的相關措施並得視學生輔導需求邀請學生本人或學生家長參與學校得視學生輔導需求彈性處理、除缺請記錄或澄清考核並積極協助其課業"},{"start":8096.001,"end":8110.917,"text":"委員胡秀請將或承經考核相關規定之限制第二項是第五項之輔導方案或進化的相關措施學校教職員工均應與職責範圍內予以配合宣讀完畢照所得會條文通過請宣讀第七條"},{"start":8111.578,"end":8129.725,"text":"委員李七條學校校長教授及專業輔導人員居部學生輔導之責任學校各學生單位應共同推動及執行第六條三級輔導相關措施協助前項人員落實其輔導職責並安排輔導相關課程或活動之實施勾結著等下學校之專責單位"},{"start":8130.945,"end":8149.277,"text":"或專責人員欲有中途錯學、長期缺課、中途離校身心障礙、自我傷害、特殊境遇、文化或經濟弱勢及其他明顯有輔導需求的學生應主動提供輔導資源學校執行學生輔導工作必要時,得結合學生輔導諮詢中心"},{"start":8150.778,"end":8163.781,"text":"特殊教育資源中心、家庭教育中心、學生校外生活輔導會、壯年輔導委員會等資源並得請求請他相關金關購協助,被請求之金關購應與配合。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":8171.96,"end":8196.913,"text":"第9條,學校應由專責單位或專責人員推動學生輔導工作、藏匿學生資料、收集、處理及利用學生智力、性向人格等測驗之實施、學生興趣成就及支援之調查、輔導及諮商之進行等事項前向學生輔導資料,學校應指定場所妥善保存其保存方式、保存年限、消費及執行學生輔導工作、收集、處理"},{"start":8197.993,"end":8212.254,"text":"利用學生個人資料之應遵行事項由中央主管儘管定之學校輔導主委也由具輔導專業專長者優先任用宣讀完畢照所在會條文通過請宣讀第十條"},{"start":8213.055,"end":8235.282,"text":"第10條高級中等一項學校專政輔導教師員額編制如下一、國民小學20班以下者之一人、二十一班以上者每二十班增至一人二、國民中學12班以下者之一人、十三班以上者每十二班增至一人三、高級中等學校12班以下者之一人、十三班以上者每十二班增至一人"},{"start":8235.882,"end":8243.548,"text":"學校屬跨學制者其專任輔導教育設施員而編制應依各學制規定分別設置宣讀完畢"},{"start":8250.08,"end":8273.914,"text":"第十一條各高級中等以下學校主管級官應依下列規定指專任專業輔導人員並得視實際需要指兼任專業輔導人員或他人一、各高級中等以下學校主管級官所主管高級中等以下學校總數合計二十校以下者之一人二十一校是四十校者之二人四十一校以上者疑此類推"},{"start":8274.614,"end":8299.14,"text":"二、各高級中等校學校主管機關所主管高級中等校學校學生總數除以中央主管機關公告之4,500至5,000之計數中央主管機關得考量各高級中等校學校主管機關所主管高級中等校學校之輔導二量例領區域等特殊情況再不超過前項各款加總計算之全國專任專業輔導人員總數百分之六範圍內"},{"start":8302.521,"end":8324.266,"text":"依其需求合與特定高級中等以下學校主管機關外加專任專業輔導人員數額不受前項規定之限制依前二項規定所至專任專業輔導人員應由高級中等以下學校主管機關統籌調配並得為由所設學生輔導諮商中心所在學校或責任之學校聘任之"},{"start":8325.746,"end":8352.988,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關依第一項及第二項規定致專任專業輔導人員所需經費由中央主管機關實際需要主與補助之更高級中等校學校主管機關依第一項及第二項規定致專任專業輔導人員之資格設置聘用薪資停聘解聘實施方式其全不是任人員通報及其他相關事項執行法由中央主管機關會商直轄市縣市主管機關後定之"},{"start":8354.069,"end":8379.805,"text":"專科以上學校學生900人以下者應致專任專業輔導人員至少1人、超過900人者、沒滿900人、增至專任專業輔導人員1人、未滿900人而餘數達450人以上者得是業務需求增至1人但空中大學及宗教研修學院不在此限學校分設不同校區者應依校區學生總數分別致專業輔導人員宣讀完畢"},{"start":8382.406,"end":8408.219,"text":"照行政院提案條文通過請宣讀增訂第十一條之一第十一條之一高級中等一項學校主任職位應就想內置專業輔導人員至少每七人則一人擔任督導人員但想內置專業輔導人員總數未滿七人者應則一人擔任督導人員宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第十二條"},{"start":8409.042,"end":8430.531,"text":"第十二條高級中等校學校制教師執行發展性輔導並應視學生需求主動與輔導單位延伸協助進入性及處遇性輔導措施高級中等校學校制輔導教師負責規劃發展性輔導措施並應連結校內外資源負責執行進入性輔導措施、平衡轉介處遇性輔導知識線性"},{"start":8432.072,"end":8451.333,"text":"及協助處遇性輔導師推動學校主管機關所致專業輔導人員負責執行處遇性輔導並協助發展性及紀錄性輔導師推動專科以上學校是教師員執行發展性輔導並因是學生需求主動與輔導單位延伸協助紀錄性及處遇性輔導措施"},{"start":8452.834,"end":8480.824,"text":"專業輔導人員負責介入性及處於性輔導並協助發展性輔導之推動高級中等校學校教師、輔導教師、專業輔導人員之輔導團項、輔導內容、分工、轉介、各行政單位行政支援及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會商指向實現市主管機關定制學生對學校有關其個人制輔導措施認為違反或不當是損害其權益之申訴依《國民教育法》、高級中等教育法"},{"start":8481.425,"end":8486.276,"text":"專科學校法、當學法、特殊教育法等相關規定辦理宣讀完畢"},{"start":8487.133,"end":8512.602,"text":"委員趙學商條文通過請宣讀第十四條第十四條各級儲管機關應妥善規劃專業培訓管道並加強推動教職員與專業輔導人員之輔導職能職前訓練及正職進修學校應定定期辦理校長、教職員及專業輔導人員輔導職能研習並納入年度輔導工作計劃實施勾集中等以下學校儲管機關"},{"start":8513.822,"end":8528.317,"text":"應定期辦理出任輔導主任或組長之執行訓練其時數不得少於18小時每學年併應定期辦理輔導主任或組長之在職進修其時數不得少於12小時併用機關或學校應核給參加訓練或進修人員公差價"},{"start":8532.401,"end":8543.404,"text":"勾集中等校學校主管機關應定期辦理出任輔導教師及出聘專業輔導人員徵職前訓練其時數不得少於36小時每學年並應定期辦理輔導教師及專業輔導人員之在職進修其時數不得少於18小時聘用機關或學校應好給參加訓練或進修人員公差價"},{"start":8555.771,"end":8577.125,"text":"前二項執行訓練及暫時進修其內涵應考量參加人員實際工作需求等以沿襲工作方、專業督導、教師、專業學習社群、參訪、交流等方式辦理並應聘請具有相關專業素養或實務經驗者擔任講師勾起中等營銷學校每學年應定期辦理校長與教職員之輔導職能暫時進修至少3小時"},{"start":8581.588,"end":8586.274,"text":"併用及問候選秀應何給參加進行委員工差價宣讀完畢"},{"start":8591.741,"end":8617.992,"text":"照審查會條文通過報告委員會第15條、16條、17條均維持現行條文第17條之一不予增訂請宣讀第24條第24條本法自公佈日實行本法修正條文第一條至第三條第11條及第11條之一實行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過報告委員會"},{"start":8619.485,"end":8621.487,"text":"全案已經經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有無異議沒有異議我們請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":8634.485,"end":8648.118,"text":"第一條為促進與維護學生身心健康及全能發展並競選學生輔導工作特制定本法學生輔導依本法制規定但特殊教育法或少年挑戰學校相關法律另有規定者從其規定"},{"start":8651.584,"end":8671.505,"text":"第二條本法所剩主管機關在中央為教育部、在主校室為主校室政府、在縣市為縣市政府、軍事學校、預備學校其主管機關為國防部、警察各級學校其主管機關為內政部、少年久生學校其主管機關為法務部本法所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關業務時各該機關應配合辦理"},{"start":8675.683,"end":8704.747,"text":"第三條本法用詞定義如下一、學校指公司地各級學校、軍事學校、預備學校、警察各級學校及少年矯正學校二、輔導教師只符合高級中等校學校輔導教師資格依法令任用於高級中等校學校從事學生輔導工作者三、專業輔導人員只具有臨床心理師、諮商心理師或社會工作室證書由主管機關或學校依法禁用從事學生輔導工作者"},{"start":8705.447,"end":8717.253,"text":"前項第二款輔導教師資格由中央主管機關定制少年挑戰學校的不適用第四條第二項是第五項第五條及第八條第二項關於家長代表是規定"},{"start":8718.996,"end":8745.015,"text":"第4條各級主管機關為執行學生輔導行政工作應指定學生輔導專責單位或專責人員辦理各項學生輔導工作之規劃及執行事項高級中等向學校主管機關應設學生輔導諮商中心其任務如下一、統籌規劃配置及運用專業輔導人員二、提供學校嚴重性困難、嚴重行為偏差及嚴重自我傷害學生之輔導諮商轉介及轉卸服務"},{"start":8747.937,"end":8766.563,"text":"提供學校輔導學生職個人及系統評估、輔導資深資源轉介服務、統籌調辦專業輔導人員、支援學校處理維新事件之心理評估、輔導資深及資源連結政治及或間接服務、支援學校教師及學生家長專業諮詢服務、"},{"start":8768.743,"end":8791.796,"text":"6、支援學校辦理與系統整合之個案會議、其進行輔導處與成效評估及嚴重個案追蹤管理、8、辦理專業輔導人員之專業增能、研習及督導工作並得協助主管機關規劃輔導教授之專業增能及研習工作、9、協助主管機關推動重大學生輔導政策、10、其他與學生輔導相關事宜之規劃及推動。"},{"start":8793.417,"end":8805.168,"text":"學生輔導資商中心應配置主管人員、專業輔導人員、專業輔導人員之督導及行政人力主管人員應由學校主管機關領選具輔導專業專長者擔任學生輔導資商中心之組織建設規劃設施設備"},{"start":8812.694,"end":8841.254,"text":"推動運作、人員資格、領選、商界、培訓、獎勵、與學校之協調聯繫及各級主管機關對學生輔導諮商中心之督導等事項宣判法由中央主管機關會商指向實現式主管機關定之為利學生輔導諮商中心運作提升專業及任職意願同時提供學生完備式輔導諮商管道各級主管機關皆因規例預算並逐年由中央主管機關會商指向實現式主管機關"},{"start":8842.114,"end":8845.479,"text":"檢討並調整運行策略以符本項意志"},{"start":8848.581,"end":8877.291,"text":"第5條各級主管機關為促進學生輔導工作發展應召開學生輔導諮詢會其任務如下一、提供有關學生輔導政策及法規性格之意見二、協調所主管學校有關機關構推展學生輔導相關工作之事項三、研議學士學生輔導措施之發展方向四、提供學生輔導相關工作推展策略方案計劃等事項之意見五、提供學生輔導課程教材"},{"start":8877.731,"end":8899.964,"text":"活動之規劃研發等是強制意見六、協調各目的事業主管機關並結合民間資源共同推動學生輔導工作其其他有關推展學生輔導相關工作之諮詢事項前項諮詢會是召集人一人由各級主管機關首長擔任其運為由各級主管機關首長就下列人員聘兼之"},{"start":8900.624,"end":8922.518,"text":"一、相關專業人員包括理想心理師、諮商心理師、社會工作室及精神科醫師二、監管以外之相關學者專家三、教育行政人員四、學校行政人員包括輔導主任五、教師代表包括輔導教授及特殊教育教師六、家長代表七、學生代表八、相關機關共和專業團體代表"},{"start":8925.3,"end":8942.433,"text":"前鄉教育行政委員及學校行政委員代表人數合計不能超過5人,總額之二分之一任意借免委員人數不能少於委員總額三分之一第一項學生輔導諮詢會之委員臨選組織及運作方式之規定由各級主管機關定制"},{"start":8944.872,"end":8964.453,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具第五條之一學生之輔導應以維護兒童及少年最佳利益為原則其決定涉及不同主體之權利衝突時應優先考量兒童及少年權利之保障並採取符合兒童及少年最佳利益之解釋輔導學生之過程應特別關注兒童及少年表達意見"},{"start":8965.234,"end":8978.239,"text":"實行健康、社會教育及其他相關權利並應關注兒童及少年居住身份認同家庭維繫、社會照護、保護與安全及其他相關需求具有心理師證書之專業輔導人員對未成年學生執行輔導諮商業務時經該學生同意並由學校召開個案會議"},{"start":8985.662,"end":8996.81,"text":"評估該學生有輔導資商需求為符合兒童及少年最佳利益等不受限禮施法第十九條規定制限制在未經法定代理人同意下執行"},{"start":9002.278,"end":9017.356,"text":"提供發展性輔導、進入性輔導或處遇性輔導之三級輔導前項鎖定三級輔導之內容如下依發展性輔導為促進學生心理健康、社會適應及適性發展針對全校學生"},{"start":9017.976,"end":9039.538,"text":"併定學校輔導工作計劃、實施生活輔導、學生輔導及生涯輔導相關措施二、進入性輔導﹐針對學生有個別化輔導需求或適應欠佳﹐情緒混擾、行為偏差或遭受重大創傷經驗及早便是發現及時介入﹐依其需求併定個別化之輔導方案或計劃"},{"start":9040.499,"end":9067.933,"text":"提供諮詢各別諮商小團體輔導及其他有助於學生輔導措施並提供評估轉介機制進行個人管理及輔導增儲育性輔導針對學生研究嚴重學校性困難或遭遇問題行為偏差重大違規行為或有其他需持續輔導之需求者配合其需求結合心理治療、社會工作家庭輔導、職能治療、法律服務"},{"start":9068.493,"end":9082.954,"text":"精神醫療等各類資源與專業服務提供整合性服務高級終點向學校予有緊急個案經學校會同學生輔導諮商中心撞案、撞案或個案會議評估確有必要後得轉介處遇性輔導"},{"start":9085.145,"end":9103.566,"text":"委員李柏毅等18人擬具第六條之一,學校應針對進入性輔導及處遇性輔導之學生列冊追蹤輔導學校的照看個人會議、針對傾向學生之個別特性、訂定輔導方案或計劃等相關措施高級中等校學校應邀請學校行政人員"},{"start":9104.227,"end":9129.508,"text":"相關教師及輔導教師參與訂定輔導方案或計劃等相關措施並得視學生輔導需求、邀請專業輔導人員、學生教授或學生本人參與專體上學校應邀請學校行政人員、相關教師及專業輔導人員參與訂定輔導方案或計劃等相關措施並得視學生輔導需求、邀請學生本人或學生教授參與"},{"start":9130.929,"end":9148.166,"text":"學校得知學生輔導需求、彈性處理出缺請記錄或成績考核並積極協助其課業不受請教或成績考核相關規定之限制。第二項至第五項之輔導方案或計劃等相關措施,學校教職員工均應與職責範圍內予以配合。"},{"start":9151.021,"end":9176.208,"text":"第7條學校、校長教授及專業輔導人員均負學生輔導之責任學校各行政單位應共同推動及執行第6條升級輔導相關措施協助前項人員落實其輔導職責並安排輔導相關課程或活動之實施勾起中等校學職校之專責單位或專責人員欲有中途措施長期宣課"},{"start":9177.408,"end":9204.947,"text":"中途離校學生草案自我傷害、跳出境遇、文化或經濟弱勢及其他明顯有輔導需求之學生應主動提供輔導資源學校執行學生輔導工作必要時得集合學生輔導諮商中心、特殊教育資源中心、家庭教育中心、學生校外生活輔導會、少年輔導委員會等資源並得請求其他相關機關構協助並請求被請求之機關構應與配合"},{"start":9210.305,"end":9227.757,"text":"第9條學校應由專責單位或專責人員推動學生輔導工作、創立學生資料搜集、處理及利用、學生智力、氣象人格等資源之實施、學生興趣、成就及資源之調查、輔導及諮商之進行等事項,傾向學生輔導資料"},{"start":9229.378,"end":9245.874,"text":"學校應指定場所妥善保存、其保存方式保存連線、銷毀及執行學生輔導工作、蒐集、處理、利用學生個人資料之應遵行事項由中央主管機關定之學校輔導主管已由具輔導專業專長者優先任用"},{"start":9249.847,"end":9272.174,"text":"第十條高階中等以下學校專任輔導教師緣而編制如下一、五名小學二十班以下者之一人二十一班以上者每二十班增至一人二、五名中學十二班以下者之一人十三班以上者每十二班增至一人三、高階中等學校十二班以下者之一人十三班以上者每十二班增至一人"},{"start":9272.975,"end":9280.393,"text":"學校屬跨學系者及專任輔導教師之原文編制應依各學系規定分別設置"},{"start":9282.165,"end":9307.418,"text":"第十一條各高級、中等以下學校主管機關應依下令規定致專任專業輔導人員並得是實際需要致兼任專業輔導人員若干人一、各高級、中等以下學校主管機關所主管高級、中等以下學校總數合計二學校以下長均一人二十一校至四十校者均二人四十一校以上者以此類推"},{"start":9308.098,"end":9328.433,"text":"二、各高級中等影像學校主管機關所主管高級中等影像學校學生總數除以中央主管機關公告之4,500至5,000之基數中央主管機關得考量各高級中等影像學校主管機關所主管高級中等影像學校之輔導案量、地理區域等特殊情況"},{"start":9329.533,"end":9345.587,"text":"佈上或前項各款加總計算之全國專任專業輔導人員總數百分之六範圍內依其需求和與特定高級中等影像學生主管機關外加專任專業輔導人員數額不受前項為定值限制"},{"start":9346.327,"end":9371.526,"text":"依前二項規定所致專任專業輔導人員應由高級中等項學校主管機關統籌調配並得委由所設學生輔導諮商中心所在學校或責定之學校聘任之直轄順縣市主管機關依第一項及第二項規定致專任專業輔導人員所需經費由中央主管機關事實際需要逐一補助之各高級"},{"start":9372.527,"end":9388.485,"text":"中等營校學校主管機關依第一項及第二項規定至專任專業輔導員決資格設置聘用薪資、提聘、解聘、實施方式其成不適任人員通報及其他相關事項執辦法由中央主管機關會商直銷順現時主管機關後定之"},{"start":9391.668,"end":9416.634,"text":"專科以上學校學生900人以下者應至專任專業輔導人員至少1人、超過900人者每滿900人增至專任專業輔導人員1人、未滿900人而餘數達450人以上者得失業務需求增進1人但空中大學及宗教研修學院不在此限學校分設不同校區者應因校區學生總數分別至專業輔導人員"},{"start":9420.779,"end":9432.982,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第十一條之一,高級中等校學校主管機關應就想那支專業輔導人員,至少每7人則一人擔任督導人員,但想那支專業輔導人員總數未滿7人者應則一人擔任督導人員。"},{"start":9439.73,"end":9462.209,"text":"第12條高級中等校學校支教師執行發展性輔導並應視學生需求主動與輔導單位延伸協助進入性及處於性輔導措施高級中等校學校支輔導教師負責規劃發展性輔導措施並應連結校內外資源負責執行進入性輔導措施評估轉介處於性輔導之世界性"},{"start":9463.109,"end":9482.102,"text":"並協助處域性輔導式推動學校主管機關所致專業輔導人員負責執行處域性輔導並協助發展性及介入性輔導式推動專科以上學校之教職員執行發展性輔導並因視學生需求、主動與輔導等為協商介入介入性及處域性輔導措施專業輔導人員負責介入性及處域性輔導並協助發展性輔導式推動"},{"start":9491.008,"end":9518.957,"text":"高級中等校學校教師、輔導教師、專業輔導人員之輔導對象、輔導內容、分工、團結、各行政單位、行政支援及其他相關事項執行法由中央主管機關會商、指揮下屬縣市主管機關定制學生對學校有關其個人制輔導措施認為違法或不當致損害其權益之申訴依國民教育法、高級中等教育法、專科學校法、大學法、特殊教育法等相關規定辦理"},{"start":9521.874,"end":9527.777,"text":"第14條各級主管機關應妥善規劃專業培訓管道並加強推動教職員與專業輔導人員之輔導職能執行訓練及暫時慶休學校應定期辦理校長教職員及專業輔導人員輔導職能研習並納入年度輔導工作計劃實施"},{"start":9541.224,"end":9561.384,"text":"高級中等以下學校主管機關應定期辦理出任輔導主任或組長之之前訓練其時數不得小於18小時每學年並應定期辦理輔導主任或組長之在職進修其時數不得小於12小時聘用機關或學校應好給參加訓練或進修人員公差價"},{"start":9563.311,"end":9572.582,"text":"高級中等校學校主管機關應定期辦理初任輔導教師及初並專業輔導人員之職前訓練其時數不得少於36小時每學年並應定期辦理輔導教師及專業輔導人員之在職進修其時數不得少於18小時"},{"start":9581.893,"end":9596.478,"text":"併用境外或學校應核給參加訓練或進修委員工參加前二項執行訓練及暫時進修其內涵應考量參加委員實際工作需求等以沿襲工作方專業督導教師專業學習社區"},{"start":9598.839,"end":9618.397,"text":"參訪教育等方式辦理並應聘請均由相關專業素養或實務經驗者擔任講師勾集專聯校學校每學年應定期辦理校長與教育員之輔導至能在職進修至少3小時聘用機關或學校應合給參加進修人員公差假"},{"start":9622.338,"end":9637.661,"text":"第24條本法自公佈日施行本法修正條文第一條至第三條、第十一條及第十一條之一施行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢報議會三讀條文均已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正"},{"start":9638.848,"end":9660.098,"text":"委員沒有文字修正報告委員會現在在議場二樓有兩批來自海內外的好朋友第一批來自雲林科技大學EMBA高階領袖班的好朋友們熱情歡迎第二批來自日本大阪市的市議員好朋友們"},{"start":9665.219,"end":9684.366,"text":"各位院會現在週五有準備好多委員反應便當不好吃所以我們今天週五有兩份午餐一個是便當一個是麥當勞所以你會分發到各位手上好謝謝各位院會、各位院會我們現在我們現在繼續處理"},{"start":9693.82,"end":9719.894,"text":"報告委員我們現在作以下決議學生輔導法增訂第五條之一、第六條之一及第十一條之一條文並將第一條至第五條、第六條、第七條、第九條至第十一條、第十二條、第十四條及第二十四條條文修正通過報告委員我們現在處理"},{"start":9722.825,"end":9737.536,"text":"審查會及黨團協商通過之附帶決議請議事人員一併宣讀附帶決議之內容委員會通過附帶決議八項一、請教育部會同地方主管機關於三個月內規劃針對幼兒及其教師與家長之輔導規範、機制及資源"},{"start":9745.92,"end":9768.299,"text":"二、請教育部協同相關主管機關於本法修正通過後三個月內強化宣導現有輔導規範六個月內會同各地方政府研議精進落實機制並向本院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告三、請教育部協同相關主管機關於本法修正通過後三個月內強化宣導現有輔導規範"},{"start":9770.14,"end":9793.351,"text":"六個月內會同各地方政府研議精進落實之機制並向本院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告請教育部完成刪除《學生輔導法》施行細則第九十條有關學生輔導資料處理之規定並另訂學生輔導資料之相關執法前接執法中應包含保存方式保存實現銷毀等內容"},{"start":9797.239,"end":9811.007,"text":"修訂學校輔導工作場所設置基準應包含透過相關機制要求各級學校落實6.請教育部與專輔教師及專輔人員有可進行輔導諮商勿談之專屬空間於六個月內修訂學校輔導工作場所設置基準7."},{"start":9822.259,"end":9846.967,"text":"請教育部在學生輔導法公佈後於三個月內即要求專科以上學校檢核學校是否符合第十一條第六項新訂標準八、要求教育部應於兩個月內同步了解全國各級學校之學生輔導工作中科技結合或運用之現況並於六個月內研議逐步導入科技運用之規劃"},{"start":9850.334,"end":9866.563,"text":"協商結論通過附帶決議17項一、請教育部會同衛生福利部行政院人事總署、主計總署共同研議一、參考衛福部保護性社工人員資格要件及職務範疇認定基準打開專輔人員資薪資天花板"},{"start":9871.446,"end":9899.807,"text":"並能促成其薪資調升之可能二、考量專輔人員在校園主責處於性輔導之專業與複雜性並考量其工作職責參著社會安全網保護社工資新點折合率做合理調整三、請教育部針對專業輔導人員異動頻繁、人才流失之情形提出具體改善措施於六個月內向本院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":9900.828,"end":9922.942,"text":"二、請教育部於三個月內嚴厲加強向學生求助及轉介資訊之宣導並規劃提供同儕培力、培伴者培力等資源三、請教育部應就學生身心健康不利系統性因素進行調查分析研究並於去識別化後定期公開其研究報告"},{"start":9924.784,"end":9943.543,"text":"請教育部於本法修正通過後6個月內辦理學生自殺嚴重自我傷害事件分析研究並提出規劃報告送交教育及文化委員會請教育部於本法通過後3個月內研議下列事項並提出書面報告送交教育及文化委員會"},{"start":9944.444,"end":9969.523,"text":"一、高級中等以下學校專任輔導教師施肢培育規劃二、研議已取得家住專長證照之現職教師擔任學校專輔教師之可行性協助措施三、偏鄉公會專輔教師培育規劃以及如何協助偏鄉專輔教師之配套措施六、請教育部於一年內"},{"start":9970.612,"end":9983.01,"text":"沿泥協助學校具體方案以協助學校接入性輔導工作之推動7、請教育部會同各地方政府延伸合宜之徵選方式以保障執行學生輔導"},{"start":9984.11,"end":10011.245,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具有關學生輔導法第十一條專業輔導人員之配置規定由教育部會商各地方政府每三年進行檢討以適時滾動修正請教育部督導各地方政府主管機關以設置分區學生輔導諮商中心彈性方式配置輔導人員針對學生人數較多之大型學校以優先派駐專任"},{"start":10013.55,"end":10038.817,"text":"專業輔導人員發揮專業輔導功能十一請教育部後續修正補助大專校院要點提升專科以上學校專輔人員續薪十二針對學生人數較多之大型學校已優先派駐專業輔導人員以維持大型學校學生輔導工作穩定發展十三請教育部於三個月內嚴厲加強落實"},{"start":10041.889,"end":10063.442,"text":"加強實驗教育學生輔導資資源提供及宣傳十四請教育部與各縣市主管機關學生輔導諮商中心相關授權執法中訂定有關專輔人員督導之設置規定並督促各縣市政府落實前階規範十五請教育部會同各地方政府"},{"start":10064.082,"end":10072.929,"text":"原定依區域學校學生樣態及輔導需求配置並分派專業輔導人員之機制補充專業輔導能力有關學生輔導工作相關人員應遵守專業倫理請教育部於三個月內研議並提出規劃書面報告"},{"start":10084.838,"end":10091.389,"text":"請教育部盤點現有學生輔導工作相關專業倫理規範於半年內研擬校園內輔導主任、組長及輔導教師應遵守之專業倫理規範宣讀完畢"},{"start":10098.584,"end":10123.923,"text":"報院會依協商結論均照案通過報院會洪孟凱委員發表聲明對剛才表決與國民黨黨團意見一致列入公報記錄報院會我們現在完成立法程序之後的委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘截止登記首先我們請范雲委員發言范雲委員發言"},{"start":10125.74,"end":10141.377,"text":"范雲委員不在場接下來請登記第二號柯志恩委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":10142.765,"end":10161.375,"text":"學生輔導法終於三讀通過對一個過去24年來站在學校的立場培育第一線的資商輔導的老師而言這次能夠以立法委員特別是教育文化委員昭偉的身份在我們手上完成這一部學生輔導法心中充滿了非常多的感謝"},{"start":10162.415,"end":10178.705,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法》最主要是能夠讓我們學生輔導的諮商中心的任務能夠更加的明確同時也會增加我們專輔教師跟輔導人員的編制跟人力有助於解決低薪跟人力流失的問題"},{"start":10179.986,"end":10194.191,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾"},{"start":10207.775,"end":10221.922,"text":"參與的大大小小的會議討論給予我們非常多實務跟學理上的一個建議能夠讓我們確立的修法的一個方向當然我們要肯定教育部的學特斯的吳林輝司長對這一部法也提供了非常多專業的一個意見"},{"start":10223.163,"end":10225.826,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":10245.165,"end":10245.905,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10290.629,"end":10315.981,"text":"主席各位同仁大家好從2014年學輔導法上路到現在10年而是我們從2020年看到疫情之後有非常多的孩子有這些身心疾患的疾病我自己作為一個媽媽過去也跟許多的兒童一起來工作我看見了這些問題同時這些問題不僅僅只是我看到的數據它成為了一個真實的數字發生在我身邊的朋友身上對我來說"},{"start":10318.595,"end":10318.975,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":10332.72,"end":10335.002,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":10348.911,"end":10369.284,"text":"以至於他沒有辦法接受這些相關的輔導跟協助所以在這一次我們就是通過了只要學生他自己同意而且通過學校評估不需要經過法定代理人同意之後他就可以得到相關的協助真正的實踐了兒童權利公約的精神以兒童為本體"},{"start":10370.936,"end":10380.761,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":10394.827,"end":10396.148,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具"},{"start":10432.39,"end":10452.079,"text":"2014年政協事件的悲劇讓大家了解到校園心理健康的一個問題無法忽視學生的心理輔導更是需要更多的資源刻不容緩因此立法院在同年迅速通過學生輔導法這不僅是亞洲首部針對學校如何協助心理健康的一個專訪"},{"start":10453.4,"end":10474.591,"text":"這更是對當時社會的一個期待具體的一個回應隨著時間的推移我們發現學校的輔導資源遠遠不足我們學生的輔導相當的老師也都有缺乏學生輔導法走了十年這十年迅速的變遷學生的學校問題層出不窮例如霸凌"},{"start":10475.171,"end":10476.272,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":10504.991,"end":10506.233,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":10520.772,"end":10534.303,"text":"強化輔導人員在多元在職的一個進修相信在未來輔導能力的一個增加高級中等以下學校預計603位的輔導人員以及大專院校的輔導人員我們從這個原生師比"},{"start":10536.785,"end":10559.192,"text":"調整預計增加了216的輔導人員三讀之後我們更期許教育部能夠一起來確實的執行、努力善盡督導的一個責任大家一起為孩子努力給孩子更好的未來謝謝謝謝羅廷維委員的發言接下來請登記第五號陳金威委員發言"},{"start":10569.181,"end":10586.409,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好本席在這邊深深的感謝所提案的學生輔導法第十一條修正草案能夠在今天一起與本黨參與提案、參與審查、參與掃野協商的各委員們版本最終走到三讀通過的結果"},{"start":10587.589,"end":10608.786,"text":"今年4月在我提出的學生輔導法第十一條草案的時候官方調查顯示有四分之一國高中生曾經認真考慮過自殺今年最新統計指出5年來的校園自殺通報案件近成長5到10倍而在5到10倍當中又以國中的案件最多"},{"start":10609.386,"end":10635.756,"text":"死亡率以高中值最高而且還有八成的自殺、死亡學生生前都沒有尋找輔導師幫忙更別說校園霸凌、師生衝突的案件攀升都再再地告訴我們有關學校新輔人員配置的規範以及待遇等等法定條件等一定要修法才能好好的接住需要被關心的孩子們因此本席提案要增高專輔人員的數量"},{"start":10637.937,"end":10663.733,"text":"提高專輔業務對於學校數、班級數、人數都要在覆蓋率更密集今天三讀通過的內容將會把目前高中以下學校班級數達55班應設置專輔人員1人改成每20間學校至少要有1人並且增加學生總數的基數計算標準之下還能依照需求來專案核定額外專任的專輔人數"},{"start":10665.214,"end":10682.147,"text":"我們要把校園環境內的心理健康安全網編織得更加綿密更好期待在未來新法上路以後能真正的更好去促進與維護學生身心健康還有全人發展非常感謝所有委員的參與謝謝謝謝陳金威委員發言接下來請登記第6位洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":10698.68,"end":10714.331,"text":"主席各位同仁學生輔導法在剛剛正式三讀修法通過感謝在這段時間以來我們教育委員會柯之恩教委以及所有教育委員會的同仁大家共同努力我們讓學生輔導法更加的精進"},{"start":10715.632,"end":10737.137,"text":"懲戒學生的實際需求提升諮商品質並且紓緩專輔人員各案的負荷量這是我們當初在提案修法的初衷並且能夠合理地補足校園專業的輔導人力健全學生輔資中心的組織運作還有強化三級輔導的分工跟合作"},{"start":10737.777,"end":10760.445,"text":"所以在這次的修法裡面特別四大部分爭取高中以下學校主管機關設有學生輔導諮商中心重新檢討調整學生輔導諮商中心的任務並且精進發展性、介入性、處遇性的三級輔導合作還有將現行高中以下學校"},{"start":10760.985,"end":10764.37,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":10780.209,"end":10800.325,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":10806.67,"end":10830.213,"text":"再次強調學生輔導法沒有最好只有更好在過去這段時間我們共同努力就是希望完善我們的學校環境完善我們的輔導環境讓每一位孩子都受到重視這是我們一起努力的目標謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言接下來我們請登記第七位林宜瑾委員請發言"},{"start":10848.372,"end":10864.187,"text":"與諮商心理師來來回回開過無數會議花費近兩年的時間反覆摸索改革的方案如今終於讓學生輔導法三讀通過關於學生輔導諮商中心該有怎樣的組織地位該如何解決專輔人員高離職率的問題"},{"start":10867.39,"end":10889.685,"text":"並提升任職的意願同時提供學生更加完備的輔導諮商管道這些長期困擾我們的問題得到階段性的解決方案感謝跨黨派委員的支持讓我提的第四條條文能夠通過審查成為正式的法律文字我的提案版本中明確規範無論是中央或者地方主管機關面對學生輔導諮商中心的運作都應當寬列預算"},{"start":10897.21,"end":10898.631,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":10915.249,"end":10938.039,"text":"調整相關運行策略讓學生輔導諮商中心的整體運作能夠得到有效率的監督不會輕易因為行政慣性而僵化發現不足處就應該及時更正不用等到下一次的修法然而我們也相當清楚許多的困境當然不會因為一次修法而消失為了打造更好的學生輔導諮商環境"},{"start":10939.62,"end":10947.167,"text":"我將持續與諮商心理師攜手打拚也與所有的教育文化委員們一起打拚一起加油謝謝大家"},{"start":10964.465,"end":10975.235,"text":"根據兒扶去年公布的國高中生的心理健康調查發現學生的壓力程度高達12.2%憂鬱的情緒程度達嚴重的有17%也就是說不論是在課業上、人際關係上還是家庭都會為青少年帶來壓力跟負面的情緒而需要被重視跟關懷在這一次學輔法的修法的重點"},{"start":10989.608,"end":10992.05,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":11011.644,"end":11023.367,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":11038.59,"end":11060.281,"text":"期待這次修法之後,我也深信能夠透過壯大我們的學輔中心,讓學輔中心成為專輔人員的後盾,讓專輔人員成為學生的避風港,進而提升專業服務的效益,保障我們學生的輔導品質。再次感謝所有朝野黨派對這次學輔法的支持,謝謝。"},{"start":11063.086,"end":11065.408,"text":"請第十位陳秀寶委員準備我知道我怕下面一位也是很遠"},{"start":11089.751,"end":11114.976,"text":"謝謝主席那我首先呢要謝謝在修法期間協助我們辦公室討論並且理解現場困境的所有專家、學者還有所有團體的成員們是你們讓我們知道孩子們正在遭遇的困境另外我要謝謝很多兒少代表直接來告訴我們在教育的現場他們所需要的協助跟他們所面臨的議題困境到底是什麼我必須要說學復法通過之後其實"},{"start":11115.956,"end":11135.238,"text":"每一個委員都說我們好像可以接住每一個孩子了但實話是我們在接住每一個孩子的路上我們其實還有很長很長很長的路要走對於數位原生世代的小孩來說他們此時此刻所面臨的困境跟他們的心理議題絕對不是我們這些大人能夠想像的"},{"start":11135.638,"end":11135.938,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":11151.144,"end":11177.136,"text":"但未來我們認為還有非常多的議題需要大家共同來關心在這次修法當中我積極主張要納入少年矯正學校同時要要求各縣市輔資中心主管要有輔導專業的人才能夠擔任主管另外我也積極的要求要增加學校專輔教師還有輔資中心專輔人員的人力配置同時我也希望學校的每一個教職員工都能夠具備輔導職能"},{"start":11178.857,"end":11180.718,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":11209.787,"end":11215.057,"text":"謝謝陳培英委員發言接下來請登記第10位陳秀寶委員發言楊瓊英委員請準備"},{"start":11227.55,"end":11248.281,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁學輔法上路10年終於可以修正通過可以更符合學輔的現況根據教育部校園自殺通報案件的建樹統計顯示國小、國中、高中以及大專校園在106學年度的自殺案件分別是114、470、626、378但是到111學年的時候分別增加到了1183"},{"start":11259.287,"end":11274.897,"text":"4204、2996以及3280件每個就學階段都提高了5到10倍其中國小暴增最多高達10倍教育部也分析高中以下學生自殺高達八成的自殺死亡學生沒有向輔導室求助"},{"start":11276.278,"end":11291.593,"text":"這些資料再再顯示學校的輔導機制及能力及待改善本次學生輔導法的修正、修保的版本經過多次與諮商心理師公會全聯會以及台灣輔導與諮商學會及台灣諮商心理學會討論針對專輔人員以及學校的輔導機制改善的需求、明定"},{"start":11299.341,"end":11314.823,"text":"當學生的輔導涉及不同主體兼有權力衝突時應該優先以考量兒少權益保障採取符合兒少追加利益解釋以維護兒少追加利益為原則本次修法最大的重點也是增加了"},{"start":11315.724,"end":11335.963,"text":"補導教師以及專業輔導人員的能力減輕專輔人員壓力讓校園的輔導業務能夠更全面的執行而這次修法也陣列了學生輔志中心的任務能夠健全學生輔志中心的運作以及促進三級輔導及跨專業合作希望接觸每一位有需求的學生"},{"start":11336.483,"end":11351.627,"text":"還有加強辦理輔導人員多元在職進修持續的來協助教師增能讓學校的輔導機制能夠更完善而教育部也規劃預計可以在110學年度提早完成輔導教師配置謝謝陳秀寶委員發言接下來請楊瓊英委員發言、郭育群委員請準備"},{"start":11377.49,"end":11394.908,"text":"院會主席韓院長、各位同仁、新聞界的朋友這是一個感動的時刻首先楊瓊玉在這邊要感謝我們所有的團體在這十年當中的經歷提供寶貴的經驗同時感謝我們全院的委員大家一致來支持我們的孩子"},{"start":11395.549,"end":11419.254,"text":"我們今天能夠通過我根據了我們監察院110年的調查報告青少年自殺已經連續20年攀升自殺成為15歲到24歲第二個死亡原因那在報告當中更由於我們的輔導人力嚴重的不足所以現行的法規已經沒有辦法去符合學生心理健康的一個挑戰"},{"start":11420.014,"end":11449.179,"text":"所以因此我們的學生輔導法是刻不容緩十年磨一劍在今天三讀通過要真的非常的感謝我們為了因應少子化的這個問題也就是學生數以及班級數逐年地在減少所以這一次的修法呢如國小20班以下設一名輔導教師國中12班以下設一名輔導教師無論你的學生數你的學校樣態是如何我們都是要充分的輔導支持"},{"start":11449.719,"end":11464.964,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":11472.387,"end":11477.489,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":11498.519,"end":11499.48,"text":"主席、各位同仁"},{"start":11523.582,"end":11549.251,"text":"以及所有關心我們國人教育的所有的好朋友們大家好學生輔導法終於在今天可以三讀通過了我想學生的需求不是只有課本不是只有一般的書面的嘗試他們更需要來自於學校來自於家庭甚至來自於社會的一個關心跟支持還有指引同時學生輔導法呢其實雖然不是完全能夠解決所謂的學生上面的一個問題"},{"start":11550.191,"end":11550.732,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":11569.853,"end":11570.453,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":11590.282,"end":11593.785,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具〉"},{"start":11612.521,"end":11618.127,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":11630.421,"end":11639.883,"text":"委員張雅琳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等18人、委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教"},{"start":11667.561,"end":11693.337,"text":"衛福部日前公布2023年國人十大死因青少年自殺死亡率近年來可以說是逐步攀升0到24歲的自殺死亡率從2018年起一路攀升從每10萬人口3.7人到連續6年都是往上的趨勢到了2023年已經來到每10萬人有5.5人暴增了150%顯示青少年心理健康問題應該要獲得各界更多的重視"},{"start":11694.238,"end":11721.174,"text":"本次三讀的學生輔導法修正高級中等以下學校主管機關所設學生輔導中心任務包含統籌規劃、配置以及運用專業輔導人員等並且提供嚴重行為偏差、嚴重自我傷害學生的輔導諮商使學生輔導諮商中心的運作能夠更符合現況也更能守護學生的心理健康同時我最關注的中央主管機關所轄學校數與專輔人員比例"},{"start":11723.095,"end":11733.243,"text":"增加專輔人力也納入本次的修正、調整為專科以上學校學生900人以下者應至專任專業輔導人員至少1人、超過900人者每滿900人增至專任專業輔導人員1人、未滿900人而餘數達450人以上者得失業務需求增至1人、"},{"start":11743.55,"end":11768.938,"text":"除使學生能夠享有更加豐沛的輔導資源也使每一位專業輔導人員的工作量可以更加的合理雖然本次修法仍有許多的未盡之處例如專業輔導人員的待遇提升受限於行政院的立場沒有能夠達到我們希望的水準但是未來我們仍會為學生的心理健康以及第一線輔導人員的待遇全力的衝刺努力"},{"start":11769.478,"end":11786.993,"text":"此外,因科技的持續進步,我們也期望未來能夠結合更多的AI工具、科技工具來協助輔導人員實質減輕他們的工作負擔,並且在這些先進科技的協助下,促進學生的心理健康。"},{"start":11793.097,"end":11800.033,"text":"謝謝葛如軍委員發言報告委員會登記發言的委員均已發言完畢我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":12212.912,"end":12217.074,"text":"現在我們繼續開會現有台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團針對本次會議10月29日提出延長開會時間至討論事項第八案處理完畢再行散會請問院會有異議有異議我們就進行表決我們現在按鈴7分鐘並分發表決卡"},{"start":12667.723,"end":12685.929,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「"},{"start":12760.52,"end":12766.702,"text":"報告委員會報告表決結果出席106位贊成59位反對47位贊成者多數報告委員會現有民進黨黨團體重複表決我們現在進行重複表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":12848.919,"end":12873.15,"text":"法院會報告重複表決結果出席106位贊成、59位反對、47位贊成者多數我們做以下宣告本次會議10月29日提出延長開會時間至討論事項第八案處理完畢再行散會法院會正正前委員發表聲明剛才表決與國民黨團意見一致列入公報記錄法院會現在我們進行討論事項第二案"},{"start":12876.391,"end":12883.437,"text":"後稅條例第12條、第12條之3及第12條之6條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12885.509,"end":12908.011,"text":"本院財政委員會於113年11月13日舉行全體委員會議進行審查,會議由賴兆景委員、會員擔任主席、財政部莊部長崔雲等應邀列席備詢。也會委員與聽取說明、詢答及大體討論後對法案進行審查,經在場委員充分溝通其學生,將全案審查完畢。"},{"start":12908.832,"end":12933.389,"text":"原經決議並按擬具審查報告提報院會本案與院會進行約讀前不需交由黨團協商院會討論本案時由賴召集委員會員補充說明宣言完畢我們現在請召集委員賴會員委員補充說明沒有補充說明好 沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議我們不再交由黨團協商請問院會有無異議"},{"start":12937.045,"end":12949.291,"text":"沒有異議本案進一審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論討論貨物稅條例請宣讀第12條第12條車輛類之課稅項目及稅率如下一、汽車凡各種機動車輛、各種機動車輛之底盤與車身、牽引車及拖車均屬之一、小客車凡幫貨駕駛人座位在內、座位在酒座以下之載人汽車均屬之"},{"start":12963.337,"end":12976.806,"text":"一、氣缸排氣量在2000立方公分以下者從價徵收25%二、氣缸排氣量在2001立方公分以下者從價徵收30%二、貨車、大客車及其他車輛從價徵收15%三、自中華民國114年1月1日起至118年12月31日至"},{"start":12993.978,"end":13003.746,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案："},{"start":13014.054,"end":13043.094,"text":"正供郵件運送之車輛、裝有農業工具之牽引車、符合政府規定規格之農地搬運車及不行使公共道路之各種工程車、免徵貨物稅。前項第三款所稱供研究發展用之進口車輛、職工新車種植開發設計、功能系統分析、測試貨位安全性能、節約能源、防止污染等質感性及零組件開發設計等之進口汽車。"},{"start":13044.715,"end":13056.408,"text":"第一項第三環所稱附有特殊裝置專攻公共安全與公共衛生目的使用者特種車輛如效一、專攻公共安全使用者警備車偵查、勘驗、用車、追捕、體檢人犯車"},{"start":13059.992,"end":13069.539,"text":"消防車及工程救險車等二、專攻公共衛生使用針灸護車、准療車、倒載沐浴車、掃水車、水肥車、垃圾車、消毒車、掃街車、公泥車、充公車、補血車及空氣污染測定車等"},{"start":13079.166,"end":13102.433,"text":"電動車輛及油電混合動力車輛按丁向丁款及第二款稅率減半徵收單油電混合動力車輛以符合財政部公告之基準者為限在中華民國104年2月6日起至118年12月31日至購買、贈運軟硬使用者車輛且完成新領牌照登記者免徵戶務稅"},{"start":13104.193,"end":13129.128,"text":"前向免徵貨物稅支車輛於完全新領牌照登記五年內其車所有人並更拆除在遇難易使用者身邊時應補繳原免徵之貨物稅宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第十二條之三維持現行條文第十二條之六維持現行條文選案經過二讀現由民進黨黨團體繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議"},{"start":13134.773,"end":13159.874,"text":"編譯我們請宣讀經過二讀這條文第十二條車輛內置課稅項目及稅率如下一、汽車凡各種機動車輛、各種機動車輛之底牌與車身、輕飲車及拖車均屬之一、小客車凡包括駕駛人、座位在內、座位在久坐以下之載人汽車均屬之一、氣缸排氣量在27立方公分以下者從價專售25%"},{"start":13162.376,"end":13173.845,"text":"二、七缸排氣量在2,001立方公分以上者從價專屬30%二、貨車、大客車及其他車輛從價專屬15%三、自中華民國114年1月1日起至118年12月31日至購買身心障礙者復康巴士並完成心理牌照登記者免徵貨物稅"},{"start":13187.635,"end":13209.445,"text":"二、機車,凡機器腳踏車、機動腳踏兩用車及腳踏車裝有輔助原動機者均屬之,從價徵收17%。三、工研究發展用之進口車輛,附有特殊裝置專攻公共安全與公共衛生目的使用之特種車輛,由證供郵件運送之車輛,"},{"start":13210.645,"end":13224.221,"text":"雙有農業工具之遷移車、符合政府規定規格之農地搬運車及不行使公共道路之各種工程車、免徵貨物稅前項第3款所稱供研究發展用之進口車輛"},{"start":13225.843,"end":13244.823,"text":"指供新車種植開發設計、功能系統分析、測試貨位安全性能、捷運能源、防汽污染等全改進及零組件開發設計等全進口汽車。第一項和第三款所支付有特殊裝置,專供公共安全與公共衛生目的使用之特種車輛如下。"},{"start":13246.738,"end":13262.906,"text":"一、專攻公共安全使用之警備車、偵查、勘驗用車、追捕、體檢人犯車、消防車及工程救險車等二、專攻公共外宣使用之救護車、診療車、倒產牧魚車、掃水車、水肥車、垃圾車、消毒車、掃街車、公寧車、沖溝車、"},{"start":13271.73,"end":13298.25,"text":"委員吳泉車及空氣污染設定車等電動車輛及油電混合動力車輛按《第一銷第一款》及《第二款》稅率減半徵收但油電混合動力車輛已符合《財政部公共經濟准則》為限在中華民國104年2月6日起至118年12月31日止購買在域軟硬使用者車輛且完成新領牌照登記者免徵戶務稅"},{"start":13301.012,"end":13327.705,"text":"檢証免徵貨物稅還是涉料與完全性領牌照登記五年內、棄身所有人、變更簽署、暫運輪椅使用者生命時應補繳原免徵徵貨物稅宣讀完畢報告委員會我們三讀條文均已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在作決議貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正通過"},{"start":13330.151,"end":13339.97,"text":"接下來我們進行完成立法程序後的委員登記發言並截止登記每位委員發言兩分鐘首先我們請羅廷偉委員發言、張志倫委員請準備"},{"start":13360.728,"end":13381.367,"text":"截至113年6月身心障礙者人口數122萬餘人如將其家屬納入至少約有360萬人然而身心障礙家庭多數因為社心低落、社福環境不完善而成為了台灣社會中最容易被忽略的一群"},{"start":13382.228,"end":13403.557,"text":"為扭轉身心障礙在社會上的一個弱勢政府應積極提出身心障礙者無障礙的生活環境之政策身心障礙權利公約強調所有身心障礙者都應享有與一般人相同的人權並且明示為使身心障礙者能夠獨立生活充分參與生活各方面"},{"start":13406.218,"end":13423.992,"text":"締約國應該採取適當措施確保身心障礙者在與其他人一樣的平等基礎上無障礙的前進、物理、環境、使用交通工具身為締約國之一的台灣政府應積極處理差別待遇"},{"start":13424.873,"end":13452.614,"text":"扶助並照顧經濟上的弱勢之國人明年臺灣將邁入了高齡化社會為因應整體環境的需求政府應積極建構高齡者及身心障礙者之無障礙的友善環境這是你我一起應該有的一個責任並促進其自立生活為富康巴士載運輪椅使用者免徵貨物稅推行以來成效良好如無障礙車載輛數"},{"start":13455.176,"end":13480.218,"text":"顯著的明顯提升為免徵貨物稅相關規定在今年年底要到期為持續推動這樣子相關的政策時有延長之必要因此我與張志文委員共同提案貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案此次三讀將富康巴士載輪輪椅的使用者免徵貨物稅將期限延長至118年12月31日"},{"start":13486.379,"end":13491.788,"text":"謝謝羅廷威委員的發言接下來我們請陳金威發言張志倫委員請準備"},{"start":13508.769,"end":13523.806,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好在目前身心障礙復康巴士需要被課稅只是我們另外用可以免徵的規範讓今年底前身心障礙者復康巴士完成新領牌照登記者可以另外免徵貨物稅"},{"start":13525.228,"end":13547.809,"text":"只是隨著年底的期限越來越近但當我國的輪椅使用族群對載運輪椅車輛使用的需求從官方的成效報告看到的是越來越呈現成長的趨勢我認為我們的政府在這個時候就應該要有基本的責任去思考一下以公益的出發點以社福政策的出發點"},{"start":13548.61,"end":13577.071,"text":"是否對身心障礙族群外出通行的需求可以有更多更好的地方來考量因此本席認為身心障礙者權益公約第九條的規定說得很對政府也應該要透過貨物稅條例來落實那就是為使身心障礙者能夠獨立生活及充分參與生活各個方面因此應採取適當的措施確保他們在與其他人平等的基礎上"},{"start":13577.791,"end":13595.684,"text":"無障礙的進出物理環境當中就包含對於交通工具的使用於是本席提出了要課徵深藏復康巴士貨物稅的時間起算點從2025年開始延長到2029年再來執行的修法提案"},{"start":13596.324,"end":13610.35,"text":"也很開心看到行政院的版本也有相同的主張都認同不要這麼早在2025年就要開始對富康巴士課徵貨物稅而是一樣等到2029年再說也請各位別忘了長照3.0的上路"},{"start":13612.15,"end":13631.218,"text":"將從明年開始而規劃的草案也將在今年推出期待從貨物稅條例還有方方面面的法令政府都能夠做好社會福利國的憲法精神讓我們的長者讓身障族群都能夠獲得權益被真正重視、被真正保障平等、方便的享有、參與社會非常感謝大家謝謝陳靜薇委員發言接下來請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":13654.888,"end":13658.863,"text":"院長、各位委員、各位全國的好朋友、大家午安!"},{"start":13660.109,"end":13688.209,"text":"貨物稅條例第十二條的規定其主要的目的當初是為了汽車免徵貨物稅的相關規定也鼓勵大家購買環保型的公共汽車如低體盤車、天然汽車、油電混合車跟電動車等等以及還有專為身心障礙者所設計的復康巴士等這些車輛只要是有新領牌的牌照登記"},{"start":13688.609,"end":13689.029,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":13705.784,"end":13707.886,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":13726.442,"end":13728.003,"text":"委員林宜瑾等18人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":13751.141,"end":13771.202,"text":"他們是靠著富康巴士在生活著所以今天的修法我們提出這些的所有的這個富康巴士的免稅優惠將延長5年到118年的12月30億來幫助更多身心障礙者以及需要幫助的人希望大家都可以有更好的生活以上 謝謝"},{"start":13773.046,"end":13783.01,"text":"委員張志倫等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員張智倫等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員張智倫等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員張智倫等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 、委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":13792.335,"end":13810.284,"text":"委員司法及法治內政委員會於113年6月27日及10月9日分別召開聯席會議併案審查本案由吳兆瑾委員宗憲擔任主席主邀請提案委員說明提案要質問相關機關應邀指派代表列席說明並答覆委員詢問"},{"start":13811.625,"end":13831.438,"text":"於會員於聽取報告並清詢談後進行逐條審查並將全案審查完略,於清決議本案審查完略擬具審查報告提請用會公決,須將由黨團先生,用會討論時由吳昭吉委員、鍾憲出席說明。稅讀完畢請昭吉委員、吳鍾憲委員補充說明"},{"start":13834.141,"end":13862.936,"text":"沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議需交由黨團協商另外,黃仁委員、鄭天才委員等分別提案經第二會期第6次會議決定進附二讀與相關提案併案協商報院會本案因協商超過一個月沒有辦法達成共識依立法院職權行事法第71條之一規定由院會定期處理"},{"start":13863.656,"end":13874.506,"text":"因此與本次會期提出討論我們現在進行廣泛討論並截止登記發言首先請武力華委員發言"},{"start":13891.771,"end":13907.698,"text":"謝謝主席請大家記住今天的日子2024年11月29日我們原住民選出來的立法委員鄭天才、高金素梅、盧憲一、黃仁、林倩琦"},{"start":13908.678,"end":13928.629,"text":"他們提出了自我閹割、自我矮化、自我歧視、自我殖民的修法版本原住民族權力運動有多少的前人走在街頭今天他們沒有機會成為立法委員我們何德何能能夠成為立法委員站在這裡"},{"start":13929.81,"end":13948.963,"text":"他們爭取權益,我們卻在這裡擅自的、任意的、便宜的修法濫用民主制度的人數優勢我們在這邊自私的刪除原住民族的權益今天我也想引用馬丁尼莫拉默斯的話"},{"start":13951.138,"end":13971.778,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員彭雅琳等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員彭雅琳等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員彭雅琳等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員�"},{"start":13976.374,"end":13988.561,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":13989.434,"end":13998.785,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":14006.875,"end":14020.347,"text":"秀法很難,但是我們立委應該要在其他的法律去實質的破除我們卻看到原住民立委在我們的原民會組織法卻去加劇山園平原這樣的框架他們說組織法第四條要把16個族群委員改為無給職,區區的兩千多萬這個預算科目被刪除,並不是如他們所說的"},{"start":14034.78,"end":14053.134,"text":"這筆錢沒有就沒有了不能挪作他用也不是他們所說的可以改聘為公務員但是各位知道嗎我們有740個部落有500多個文件站有原家中心與推組織這些然而今天刪除的這16個人他們減損了園民會9%的人力"},{"start":14057.597,"end":14084.446,"text":"大大滅損了我們人力跟行政效能我們在喊原住民工作權保障他們卻消滅了這16個人今天傷害的是16個原住民的主體性跟尊嚴我要說處理器很多我們要來抗爭要來發聲謝謝大家謝謝吳麗華委員的發言接下來請登記第二位蘇巧慧委員發言吳思堯委員請準備"},{"start":14101.994,"end":14116.614,"text":"主席、各位同仁山地原住民和平地原住民是殖民者強加在原住民身上的不合理區分對原住民來說有意義的是族別、是部落而不是山地或平地原住民"},{"start":14117.375,"end":14134.796,"text":"同一族群有可能因為在日治時期涉及在山地鄉被認為為山地原住民涉及在平地鄉就被認為是平地原住民朝野應該共同修憲打破這樣的區分而不是修組織法來強化山地平地的劃分"},{"start":14135.817,"end":14152.505,"text":"原民會主委應該用人為財任用好人才能推行好政策才有利於原住民而不是強制要求山人、平人輪流擔任輪流的定義是什麼?如何輪流?內閣總辭後一定要換人即使院長留任內閣小改組也要換人嗎?"},{"start":14156.207,"end":14168.124,"text":"主委是政務人員沒有任期保障可能今天平原主委當三天就請辭下台下一個山原主委當五年這樣的輪流有公平嗎?有意義嗎?"},{"start":14169.793,"end":14189.9,"text":"族群委員聘用制是自原民會成立以來就有的制度並且從9族逐漸擴增到16族族群委員服務對象範圍遍及全國原住民16族之間語言、文化不同族群委員依法令執行公務是原民會和各族之間的橋樑"},{"start":14191.46,"end":14219.273,"text":"無己職的客家委員僅是諮詢性質任務不同、族群特性也不同取消山地原住民和平地原住民之別是原住民族的期待也是社會進步必然的趨勢因為山原和平原之間是百年前殖民者為統治歷變的區分民主不是統治應該是回歸到原住民族應該原有的樣貌這才是自然"},{"start":14220.566,"end":14231.996,"text":"取消山地原住民和平地原住民之分是我們追求的我們在經濟、社會、文化狀況也與當年大不同不應該走回頭路"},{"start":14233.616,"end":14251.298,"text":"並且原住民身份別並非一成不變依照原住民身份法第八條身份別可因結婚或父母不同身份而依個人意願變更一位阿美族爸爸和泰雅族媽媽生下的孩子他可以是山地原住民也可以是平地原住民"},{"start":14252.199,"end":14272.221,"text":"身份應該是自我認同的展現但現在的提案卻把不合時宜的制度套在現今讓身份成為族人的枷鎖選擇服務族人的最適合、最適當人選之前不是考慮能力而是考慮身份是否符合這豈不是相當荒謬嗎"},{"start":14273.542,"end":14281.865,"text":"所以我在這案委員會時審查就一再強調立法委員應該是要守護原住民的優秀人才才是真正捍衛族人權益"},{"start":14297.711,"end":14326.605,"text":"主席、各位同仁立委再大也要克遵憲法但非常遺憾這一屆的立法院卻是最多違憲修法的一屆人事任命權就是行政權的核心領域從歷次的大法官解釋從613號誓字、585號到391號都告訴了我們權力之相互制衡有其界限"},{"start":14327.265,"end":14354.751,"text":"除了不能抵觸憲法之規定更不能侵犯各個憲法機關的權力核心領域或者對於其他憲法機關權力之行使來造成實質妨害導致責任政治崩壞這都是告訴我們立委要恪遵憲法切莫用修法的方式來介入行政權的人事任命權"},{"start":14356.172,"end":14374.791,"text":"這次原住民族組織法的修法重點兩項不管是修法強制要求原住民族的主委要山地平地來輪流擔任或是現有16位的族群委員由有己職改為無己職"},{"start":14375.892,"end":14389.685,"text":"這些都是用修法的方式剝奪了憲法賦予行政權的人事任命權限甚至也大大的強害了現有的政務人員信賴保護的原則"},{"start":14390.746,"end":14414.716,"text":"所以事法性大有問題,合理性當然也應當來審酌我想這樣將山地平地原住民這種殖民時期遺留下來的這種要打破的刻板框架都應當落實在現在立法院的修法思維當中只是非常可惜在野黨委員的提案"},{"start":14415.436,"end":14415.897,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":14437.176,"end":14464.001,"text":"不要分族群這是現在進步的趨勢至於族群委員有幾職的制度數十年來不論誰執政都是如此不要因為現在執政的是民進黨由民進黨任命的主委臨聘而來的族群委員就冠上了綠油油或是酬庸甚至大筆一揮"},{"start":14464.741,"end":14488.149,"text":"把他們服務人民的薪資都砍光這對於信賴保護原則存在嗎?未來如果提起訴訟請問這種責任立法院負得起嗎?民進黨反對這次的修法謝謝謝謝吳思瑤委員發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言李柏毅委員請準備"},{"start":14492.241,"end":14493.807,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":14499.568,"end":14525.947,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進你們去過馬來西亞嗎?你們知道馬來西亞有國王嗎?馬來西亞有13個州、3個直轄區其中除了檳城、馬六甲和東馬4個州之外其他9個州還有蘇丹這9位蘇丹組成了統治者會議每5年推舉一位擔任馬來西亞的最高元首雖然馬來西亞是內閣制但是最高元首是由9個蘇丹輪流擔任"},{"start":14528.337,"end":14548.978,"text":"請問你知道平臺灣的原住民有幾族嗎?原民會說有16族如果今天真正我們原住民的朋友要落實族群平等那麼這個法應該16個族輪流擔任一人一年16年輪一次這才是真正的落實族群平等"},{"start":14549.779,"end":14576.757,"text":"三元平原成立前面幾位委員說的那是一個清代是一個日治時期一個落伍的規定現在很多原住民朋友連自己是三地原住民還是平地原住民都不知道只有選舉的時候才知道完全跟實際的族群民黨完全沒有異議但是民進黨重視原住民第四政黨輪替陳前總統提出了國中之國原住民我們支持他自主、自立"},{"start":14577.765,"end":14597.992,"text":"自治所以我們在原民會上我們加強的爭拔原住民同胞來擔任公務員但是我所服務的屏東縣現在我遇到的我們很多原住民的朋友我們有60幾歲的原住民校長、原住民老師、原住民警員、原住民醫師但是逐漸凋零為什麼"},{"start":14599.721,"end":14622.355,"text":"早年的政府警員有原住民班師培有原住民班醫師也有專門培養原住民但是隨著這個制度的改變真正原住民朋友他需要的醫師、警察、教師的服務卻在現在的原住民特考當中警察特考的分離之下已經沒有辦法再禁用了"},{"start":14623.168,"end":14640.043,"text":"但是這些只關心當族委的原住民選出來的菁英朋友他們不關心這個問題他們只關心自己有沒有機會當族委不關心原住民朋友有沒有屬於自己的族人來當警員、來當校長、來當醫師、來當老師扶他"},{"start":14642.845,"end":14655.303,"text":"只有民進黨的原住民立委大聲疾呼原住民特考要增列警察的考科讓原住民的同胞可以有自己的族人來為自己的治安服務"},{"start":14656.933,"end":14682.531,"text":"這才是原住民落實自己平等權、自治權的重要事項然而我們看到國民黨的朋友不考慮這個他們不在意自己原住民同胞切身的利益他們只在意自己精英爭奪原住民主義的權利發明三元平原輪流擔任這樣的條文我們覺得非常的不值得請支持民進黨支持爭奪原住民"},{"start":14687.184,"end":14711.599,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌委員發言接下來請李柏毅委員發言張宏祿委員請準備好 謝謝很遺憾第11屆的立法院在做什麼"},{"start":14712.383,"end":14729.072,"text":"第11屆的立法院憑著多數黨的多數他們從立法院的擴權法案開始不斷的違憲財化法想要奪錢想要奪行政院的錢原住民組織法想要奪權"},{"start":14730.473,"end":14744.191,"text":"想要奪憲法五十六條行政院各部會首長、政務委員由行政院院長提請總統任命想要限制行政院院長在原民會主委的用人權"},{"start":14745.839,"end":14761.311,"text":"所有這些法案原住民族在第三條裡面包含這次國民黨提出的由三元平原要輪流擔任原住民族主委你知道三元平原是怎麼分的嗎?"},{"start":14763.336,"end":14782.578,"text":"是從1945年國民政府開始那一天的戶籍如果你的戶籍是在山地你就是山地原住民如果你的戶籍是在平地那一天開始你就是平地原住民我剛才還問了我旁邊的武力華立委你是山地原住民還是平地原住民"},{"start":14783.117,"end":14804.131,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":14804.972,"end":14813.635,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":14829.42,"end":14855.615,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具第四條對於族群委員改成無幾職我們都知道族群委員他必須要深入我們一共有740個部落有500多個文件站超過500個教會的服務藉由族群委員來可以讓各族跟政府之間跟政令之間更能知道族人之間的需求是什麼我想"},{"start":14856.555,"end":14870.803,"text":"這個工作把它改成無幾職無非也是在野黨的詭計也是在野黨一開始就講的要讓民進黨政府找不到人要癱瘓這個政府要讓你找不到政務官"},{"start":14871.443,"end":14887.693,"text":"也要讓你找不到族群委員來服務所有原住民族我在這邊鄭重地向國人宣告我們民進黨一定會極力反對就算面對國民黨的多數這種落後的做法我們在這邊表態全力反對謝謝"},{"start":14911.701,"end":14921.84,"text":"各位同仁我們身邊也有很多原住民的朋友他們自己很多人也搞不清楚他是山園還是平原"},{"start":14922.984,"end":14947.445,"text":"在每每接近選舉的時候很多人會問說他到底要投什麼票我今天要講這個就是說其實分三元跟平元真的是一個落後的觀念一個進步的國家不應該如此我們今天與其在這邊說要三元平元來輪流擔任主委"},{"start":14948.413,"end":14950.334,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":14964.036,"end":14979.364,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬"},{"start":14990.302,"end":15012.154,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":15016.203,"end":15016.543,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":15032.981,"end":15049.433,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":15062.918,"end":15076.175,"text":"所以在這種情況之下如果說你要給他變成無極職我覺得對他們可能會有所不公平但這個也是可以討論不過我在這邊真的呼籲大家"},{"start":15077.253,"end":15103.751,"text":"我們不要把這個過時的法令把它入法啦要用三元平原去輪流擔任主委這是不切實際的也對原住民同胞不好的我覺得我們一起來努力啦把三元跟平原把它廢掉啦原住民組不要再分三元平原了啦謝謝張宏祿委員的發言接下來我們請陳俊宇委員發言審發會委員請準備"},{"start":15116.398,"end":15144.258,"text":"主席、各位同仁有關本次我們原住民組委員會的組織法修法對於未來原民會的運作和業務的推動可能會有很大的一個影響其中第三條是對於原民會的組委他任命的資格加以限制規定必須由山地和平地原住民輪流擔任"},{"start":15145.519,"end":15166.548,"text":"對於原住民族自治的精神我們完全支持但我想從我自己生活的經驗來分享因為我所認識的許多原住民的朋友都以自身所代表的族群、文化為傲並不再特別去區隔山地或是平地的原住民"},{"start":15167.128,"end":15195.634,"text":"而在當年的歷史背景下屬地主義所劃分出的山地和平地原住民在現行的原住民法第八條的規定當中也可能因為結婚或是父母有不同的身份而依照個人的意願可以做變更所以對於每一個人選適不適合擔任原民會的這個主委我想最重要的應該還是在他所擁有的這個專業性"},{"start":15197.813,"end":15214.795,"text":"以及他的能力適不適格、能不能兼顧所有族群所關心的事務如果要強調不同的身分別來輪流擔任或許反倒會忽略人選本身的條件而憲法第56條也明文規定"},{"start":15216.056,"end":15234.315,"text":"行政院各部會首長是由我們行政院長提請總統任命之若加諸這樣的立法限制恐怕更是限縮了行政權任命的人事彈性不但有違行政一體的原則也不符合責任政治的運作"},{"start":15235.316,"end":15250.289,"text":"至於是否要將原民會的族群委員會改為無給職我想從過去不管是在委員會或是在協調會當中的這個討論似乎更有是針對個案是否"},{"start":15251.271,"end":15251.851,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":15268.142,"end":15296.722,"text":"將中央的政策帶回地方並且把地方的需求反映給中央這是一份正常上下班的全職工作所以我認為維持有幾職更能充分維持族群委員服務的這個量能所以在此也希望我們各位委員能夠甚至讓我們所修法完成的原住民委員會組織法可以更完善更貼切的符合原住民每一個族群的期待"},{"start":15300.617,"end":15322.938,"text":"謝謝陳俊宇委員的發言接下來請沈發貴委員發言黃捷委員請準備各位同仁就在前幾天"},{"start":15324.209,"end":15350.156,"text":"台灣的十二強棒球賽為整個我們所有台灣人民大家帶來非常強大的光榮感以及團結感大家也都知道在這次十二強棒球賽裡面有13位原住民是我們的這一次的國手代表我們為台灣人帶來這麼光榮的感覺但是有人在問說這13個原住民有幾個平地原住民有幾個山地原住民嗎"},{"start":15354.515,"end":15382.112,"text":"剛剛很多委員都有講平地原住民跟山地原住民他就是1945年國民黨來台灣的時候延續日本的殖民統治手法甚至到當年清朝首藩的區分方式這樣子來延續下來的一個政策但是在我們1991年的修憲在修憲的過程中沒有辦法那時候修憲還是把平地原住民、山地原住民的選舉方式納入了憲法"},{"start":15384.56,"end":15399.546,"text":"之後依照這個憲法我們有一個叫做原住民身份法各位原住民身份法裡面怎麼規定我們3地原住民、平地原住民怎麼區分剛剛李柏毅有人講說是從台灣光復那個時候算起錯"},{"start":15402.049,"end":15427.04,"text":"這個原住民相當法裡面是規定臺灣光復前涉及於山地行政區的就是山地原住民臺灣光復前涉及於平地行政區的就是平地原住民各位80年前你的阿公你的阿祖到底是涉及在哪裡決定了你今天投票投給誰決定你今天是平地原住民還是山地原住民"},{"start":15428.652,"end":15455.185,"text":"正是因為這樣子規定的它的荒謬跟它不具備合理性因此在過去從以前到現在在立法過程裡面我們這些立法委員大家都很理性法律也很謙異很謙虛因此在其他的原住民的所有政策相關法律裡面一律沒有去區分平地原住民、山地原住民所有平地原住民、山地原住民在法律上面的權利基本上都是一樣的"},{"start":15456.005,"end":15477.275,"text":"只有在憲法裡面規定的有關於投票才有區分平立原住民跟三立原住民結果今天國民黨提案在大家都認為這個不合理的分類之下大家法律盡量不要去區分平立原住民跟三立原住民結果國民黨提一個案說我們要來不但要分而且還要輪流做"},{"start":15478.919,"end":15499.59,"text":"已經多少年沒有這種平立原住民、三立原住民的立法了居然是由我們國民黨的原住民委員所提出來的這是荒天下之大謬如果我們今天說客委會、客委會主委要由海陸、要由四縣、要由大埔輪流做你覺得這個會增加客家人的團結嗎?"},{"start":15523.302,"end":15525.424,"text":"委員黃潔發言、委員沈伯陽發言"},{"start":15546.365,"end":15562.186,"text":"在座各位的同事大家午安在今天這個原住民組織法其實已經多次的在委員會跟協調會都已經討論過了但是一直都沒有達成共識為什麼?就是因為這一次的修法實在是毫無邏輯"},{"start":15564.438,"end":15589.719,"text":"這個修法目的更讓人難以理解在這次修法裡面要求原住民的主委要由山地原住民跟平地原住民來輪流擔任那過去有多位的原住民委員包括提案的委員在內都曾經站在這個質詢台上面說山地跟平地原住民的區分是殖民者強加在原住民身上非常不合理的區分"},{"start":15591.038,"end":15619.633,"text":"而這樣的區分過去在所有的理論上面也缺乏科學的依據更沒有民族學理論上面的支持對於原住民而言有意義的是族別是部落而不是山地跟平地的區分這個標籤加上去只是讓原住民族自我殖民自我標籤甚至是自我閹割"},{"start":15621.483,"end":15648.756,"text":"這次的修法大家都認為是在走回頭路如果要讓原住民的主委由山地跟平地來輪流擔任就是大大的退步這種過時的劃分方式應該是要去打破如同剛剛張宏路委員提的我們可以去打破我們可以去廢除山地跟平地的區分而不是在這裡走回頭路把自己綁進這個框架自我枷鎖甚至是讓這個"},{"start":15650.037,"end":15668.591,"text":"毫無邏輯的依據變成原住民主委的任命如果真的要公平那是不是我們讓16組的原住民族來輪流擔任呢照這個邏輯如果套用在其他部會身上就可以看得出來這一次的修法是多麼的沒有邏輯了"},{"start":15670.012,"end":15696.05,"text":"最後我還是要提醒一下行政院長對於各部會的部會首長的人事決定權是非常重要的這個是非常明確而且清楚的憲政原則行政院是一個一體如果行政院長想要落實自己的政策願景就要能夠親自決定部會首長是誰這個是憲法56條明確賦予院長的權利也是責任政治落實的必要條件"},{"start":15696.69,"end":15711.409,"text":"在行政議題的原則之下行政院長可以自己選擇誰要來擔任部會首長並給予充分的尊重這個也是釋字613號解釋不斷強調的重點所以請在座的所有立法委員請記得"},{"start":15713.371,"end":15729.216,"text":"在憲法面前立委沒有比較大請立法委員遵守自己應盡的憲法忠誠義務而不是去剝奪其他憲政機關賦予的權利藍白過去已經被憲法法庭判過違憲一次現在...好 謝謝黃婕委員的發言接下來請沈伯陽委員發言吳啟明委員請準備"},{"start":15749.448,"end":15778.416,"text":"各位同事大家好我想說剛剛前面其實我們針對這些歷史的論述其實都已經非常充分了因為現在是廣泛討論我先暫且不就針對其中特定條文邏輯上的謬誤來講但我還是必須要說從之前到現在的確我們對於原住民相關的論述跟權益是沒有被完整落實的這是一定的"},{"start":15779.352,"end":15803.109,"text":"而且我們目前不管是剛剛講的山地、平原等等的這些分類其實到某種程度都是殖民的史觀而它不僅僅是殖民的史觀現在我們的論述甚至大部分都是中國的史觀都是中國智庫所生產的他們在對內少數民族的論述我們很多時候在台灣都會看到"},{"start":15804.158,"end":15811.726,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":15822.777,"end":15841.684,"text":"但萬萬沒有想到在過了那麼多年以後在台灣我們對於原住民族的論述也常常停留在如此淺層的地方因此說認真的我們一直在強調轉型正義的同時對於原住民的轉型正義確實落實的是遠遠的不夠"},{"start":15844.125,"end":15872.547,"text":"不管是土地的轉型正義、語言的轉型正義、財源的轉型正義、英雄的、信仰的各式各樣的轉型正義沒有被落實而這個會期我們已經開始討論這些轉型正義這個轉型正義就排在今天的第十四案結果呢,如此荒謬的修法把它提到前面結果剛剛在延長會議時間的時候就直接把這個十四案排除了"},{"start":15873.496,"end":15885.448,"text":"如果在座的原住民立委如果藍白的原住民立委如果根本不在意原住民權益的話就不應該做這樣的事情"},{"start":15886.297,"end":15908.325,"text":"如果你真正在意原住民的話,你應該來討論現在在殖民史觀下我們的轉型正義,現在完全沒有被落實的情況之下,我們應該要怎麼做?繼續使用過往的語言,不管是山地、平原這種荒謬的分類方式,都絕對不是解決問題的做法。"},{"start":15909.145,"end":15934.479,"text":"所以在這邊我還是要再度的一個強調如果真的有心的話我們應該共同來修憲由憲法的層次真正的落實原住民族的轉型正義而不是用這種像之前補償的這種方式又或者說只是名字的方式又或者只是文化表徵的方式這完全不是一個負責任的態度也不是立法院應該"},{"start":15938.822,"end":15943.806,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員的發言接下來請吳祁銘委員發言陳瑩委員請準備好 處長 各位同仁針對原住民委員會組織法第3、第4、第7"},{"start":15966.135,"end":15983.345,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具此次的修法在我們內政委員會也是爭議不休很遺憾今天到了大會來做表決此次的修法原住民的主委以及我們山地跟平地輪流來擔任以及我們原住民委員會"},{"start":15984.425,"end":16008.902,"text":"改為五級指針對這兩點本席認為,原住民主委應該是為人用才由行政院長綜合考量族群的差異因素擇優任用才有利於原住民而不是強制要求輪流擔任主委是政務官沒有任期的保障若要輪流的話定義未合"},{"start":16009.562,"end":16013.325,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":16040.002,"end":16066.296,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳"},{"start":16066.856,"end":16075.801,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉、委員張雅琳等19人擬具〉、委員張雅琳等19人擬具〉、委員張雅琳等19人擬具〉、委員張雅琳等19人擬具〉、委員張雅琳等19人擬具〉、"},{"start":16087.408,"end":16116.22,"text":"若改為無極職所有用心付出的委員來說是一個非常不公平所以針對我們這兩項的修法本席這邊也要要求我們所有立法同仁人審慎的考慮我本席在這邊也堅持的反對的立場謝謝謝謝吳啟明委員的發言接下來請陳瑩委員發言高金素美委員請準備"},{"start":16151.609,"end":16161.881,"text":"主席、各位同仁,此次的修法,現在有什麼好討論的呢?結論就是順高精者昌,逆高精者亡,不是嗎?"},{"start":16163.599,"end":16188.791,"text":"國民黨和民眾黨都被高津牽著鼻子走鄭天才委員也在一旁躲在後面下指導棋黃國昌委員變成了小弟、變成了打手根本不了解原住民實際的狀況就拿著不完整、不精確的資料把所有這次的族群委員全部棒打了一頓"},{"start":16189.872,"end":16215.026,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾"},{"start":16216.874,"end":16231.76,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":16232.64,"end":16252.51,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":16260.418,"end":16286.754,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案�"},{"start":16287.995,"end":16315.597,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":16316.926,"end":16320.929,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":16355.097,"end":16377.834,"text":"主席、各位同仁大家還記得嗎?進法補償要增加三萬塊的時候是誰在欺負原住民?是誰在對抗卓院長?吳麗華委員、陳穎委員你們在哪裡?你們有跟主任站在一起嗎?"},{"start":16379.588,"end":16402.155,"text":"今天主任的聲音我們都聽到了11月7號當卓院長簽下禁法補償用公務預算能夠補償6萬塊的時候那個才是歷史性的一刻不是今天今天我們要談的是"},{"start":16403.015,"end":16431.041,"text":"原民會作為原住民的中央主管機關它的組織制度它要用人為材並且更要注重專業性還有它的文化敏感度尤其是反映各族新生的族群委員然而我們現行的族群委員的制度施行多年了仍然有非常多的問題今天族人也請我在這裡告訴大家"},{"start":16431.801,"end":16456.422,"text":"推薦及審查程序沒有法制化開放推薦的時間點非常模糊導致多數族人不清楚推薦機制的存在也使得成為少數人進行酬庸的工具根本沒有辦法反映各族群的心聲"},{"start":16457.623,"end":16459.605,"text":"租群委員資格條件失衡114年度租群委員人事費2247.6萬元"},{"start":16474.6,"end":16500.863,"text":"平均每一個族群委員的願薪是11.7萬而願用的資格僅僅具備原住民的身份就可以了但是呢法定工作是專業的我們需要非常專業的審查原民會的法官先期審查原住民的政策、制度、計劃先期的審查這十種的重要名字書的"},{"start":16501.824,"end":16521.059,"text":"的審查因為缺乏了專業的能力所以也無法依照規定的職權有所作為我們相對的來看一下原民會的專門委員他們必須經過高考及格並且要有10年以上的資歷才可以被拔絕成為專門委員他們的薪資多少才將近8萬塊"},{"start":16525.302,"end":16549.393,"text":"相反的,月薪高達11.7萬的族群委員卻只出席婚喪、喜慶等等的活動這對於認真的原住民的公務人員對於部落認真打拚的族人是相對的薄弱感謝謝大家好,我們謝謝高金委員下一位請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":16566.581,"end":16580.955,"text":"副院長、各位親愛的家人大家好大家都說平地或山地原住民不要區分但是現在的政府自己區分這不是打臉自己嗎"},{"start":16583.008,"end":16589.931,"text":"寒衛平權杜絕浪費李主委說我們已經領了28年了28年的制度是否檢討?原住民族群委員會每年耗費了2200萬平均每個人領高薪135萬但其實功能多為行政跑腿"},{"start":16607.617,"end":16628.111,"text":"以國家考試的文官待遇相比明顯過度非常不公這項28年後領了班的制度我們今天要重新改變正好符合執政黨"},{"start":16629.733,"end":16649.453,"text":"論述的,非常感謝大家支持這個法案。第二,為何制度代一不一致,以客家委員會為例,其服務對象包含全國的客家族群,內外委員只有領出息費。"},{"start":16651.314,"end":16679.003,"text":"並無固定薪資相比之下原住民族群委員卻有高額年薪甚至比地方縣市議員還高這樣的待遇無法讓人民信服新住民身份已經在今年總統8月12日公告各縣市政府也有成立新住民事務委員會"},{"start":16680.885,"end":16709.469,"text":"各國代表委員也是為全國新住民服務制度待遇是否要一致我們呼應賴政府要以扶國立民為核心而不是特權的護航者讓資源用在真正的制度請支持修正原住民族群委員會為無舉止渡劫政府人士"},{"start":16710.53,"end":16729.663,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":16738.7,"end":16766.104,"text":"委員詹天才等16人提案第三條本會智主任委員一人特任由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任副主任委員三人其中二人職務比照檢任第十四職等另一人職務列檢任第十四職等副主任委員中二人應由山地原住民與平地原住民擔任且職務列檢任第十四職等者應具山地原住民或平地原住民身份"},{"start":16766.804,"end":16792.262,"text":"前向主任委員由行政院院長提名僅由具原住民身份之指向市議員、縣市議員、鄉鎮市區長召開審查會同意後任命之任期四年不得連任委員高清素梅等24人提案第三條本會智主任委員一人特任由原住民擔任並兼任行政院政務委員、副主任委員三人"},{"start":16792.942,"end":16810.494,"text":"其中二人職務比照檢任第十四職等、另一人職務列檢任第十四職等副主任委員中二人應由原住民擔任且職務列檢任第十四職等者應具原住民身份委員吳曉林、鄭天才等幫人所提修正動議第三條"},{"start":16811.414,"end":16836.414,"text":"本會致主任委員一人特任由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任副主任委員三人其中二人職務比照檢任第14職等另一人職務列檢任第14職等副主任委員中二人由山地原住民或平地原住民擔任且職務列檢任第14職等者擬具山地原住民或平地原住民身份"},{"start":16838.14,"end":16865.542,"text":"委員黃仁等29人提案本會智主任委員一人特任由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任副主任委員三人其中二人職務比較前任第十四職等另一人職務列前任第十四職等副主任委員中二人應由山地原住民與平地原住民擔任且職務列前任第十四職等者應具山地原住民或平地原住民身份"},{"start":16866.903,"end":16893.722,"text":"委員鄭天才等12人提案第三條本會智主任委員一人特任由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任副主任委員三人其中二人職務比照檢任第十四職等另一人職務列檢任第十四職等副主任委員中二人應由山地原住民或平地原住民擔任且職務列檢任第十四職等者應舉山地原住民或平地原住民身份"},{"start":16895.103,"end":16918.38,"text":"中國國民黨立法院黨團修正同意第三條本會致主任委員一人特任由山地原住民及平地原住民輪流擔任副主任委員三人其中二人職務比就檢測第14值等另一人職務列檢測第14值等副主任委員中二人應由山地原住民或平地原住民擔任且職務列檢測第14值等者"},{"start":16918.96,"end":16947.244,"text":"擬具山地原住民或平地原住民身份中國國民黨立法院黨團在修正動議第三條本會智主任委員一人特任由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任之副主任委員三人其中二人職務比較檢認第十四值段另一人職務列檢認第十四值段副主任委員中二人應由山地原住民或平地原住民擔任且職務列檢認第十四值"},{"start":16947.244,"end":16960.409,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈三地原住民或平地原住民身份〉宣讀完畢現在依登記順序發言並截止登記請吳委員立法發言"},{"start":16978.577,"end":16998.609,"text":"謝謝各位親愛的立院同仁我作為一個原住民我是一個盧凱族但是我們有分三元平原16個族群當中都有被分類為三元平原當我們的父母是三元平原"},{"start":17000.37,"end":17019.135,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":17028.157,"end":17052.908,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具我從進到立法院我就一直提案我希望能夠打破這個歷史上錯誤歧視的分類方法現在在我的手上就有一份憲法增修條文第四條第一項第二款的修憲草案我一直沒有改變過這個立場"},{"start":17055.714,"end":17062.872,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":17066.257,"end":17093.064,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":17097.346,"end":17116.373,"text":"我還是要不斷呼籲山源平原實實在在是破壞原住民的團結我們不應該透過我們原民會的組織法來去加深這樣的一個框架"},{"start":17117.611,"end":17132.065,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具我希望這樣一個破壞原住民團結的條文我希望大家千萬不要按同意我在這裡誠懇地呼籲大家拜託"},{"start":17133.567,"end":17149.756,"text":"我要為各位唱一首我們族人當有什麼事情要去討伐的時候我不忍心用粗草兩個字但是我必須要在這個地方用這樣的聲音來代表我的族人除了些愛慕賴拉德"},{"start":17169.12,"end":17170.662,"text":"主席、各位同仁在2024的台灣"},{"start":17188.41,"end":17213.594,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":17218.015,"end":17236.447,"text":"科家委員會一腔調來分也有四海大平安科委會的主委我們更不會去修法要求每一個不同的腔調發音的族群的科家級的人士來出任主委"},{"start":17237.247,"end":17259.537,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":17260.137,"end":17288.737,"text":"我們來看看上個會期的立法院同樣在內政委員會修正地方制度法33條的條文立法院越來越進步了在提名援助民族的議員名額的時候我們修法要逐步落實在地方議員的選舉打破山園平原之分為什麼"},{"start":17290.058,"end":17303.871,"text":"下一個會期的現在半年不到立法院又要走回頭路另外修法來進行完全措置立場錯亂的法律提案呢?"},{"start":17305.049,"end":17321.794,"text":"我們來看看總統民選之後的歷任總統李登輝任命的園民會主委是山原陳水扁任內8年有4位園民會主委分別是兩位山原、兩位平原"},{"start":17322.894,"end":17351.168,"text":"蔡英文的8年是由平地原住民出任而賴清德總統上任他所任命的曾志勇是山地原住民如果要說沒有促進融合包容多元輪替的那恐怕只有馬英九執政的8年因為馬英九執政他任命了三位原住民族的主委都是平地原住民"},{"start":17352.108,"end":17374.643,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修"},{"start":17383.765,"end":17396.477,"text":"謝謝委員報告院會現有國民黨黨團提議停止討論請問院會有異議有異議進行表決現在針對國民黨黨團提議停止討論進行表決"},{"start":17406.056,"end":17421.493,"text":"現有民進黨黨團要求記名表決記名表決時間一分鐘現在開始他們有提案"},{"start":17500.155,"end":17522.273,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等"},{"start":17527.917,"end":17535.699,"text":"現有民進黨黨團提議重複表決現在進行重複表決時間一分鐘現在開始重複表決重複表決表決表決表決表決"},{"start":17558.573,"end":17559.758,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":17594.826,"end":17604.376,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":17615.94,"end":17626.944,"text":"現在有關停職討論的提案報告院會表決結果出席94人、贊成55人、反對38人停職討論通過現在休息"},{"start":19277.817,"end":19278.74,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具"}]}},{"id":"157670","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157670","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063748ec133a67f66cb53f20b0db47dadbc7be04044c27fbc322648cbe450dbf9495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:27:51 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09:34:15","影片長度":"00:06:24","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 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«學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":131.479,"end":143.529,"text":"委員張志倫等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案、委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":41,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（12時17分）院長、各位委員、各位全國的好朋友，大家午安！當初貨物稅條例第十二條規定的主要目的是為了汽車免徵貨物稅的相關規定，也鼓勵大家購買環保型的公共汽車，如低底盤車、天然氣車、油電混合車及電動車，還有專為身心障礙者所設計的復康巴士等，這些車輛只要完成新領牌照登記者，就可以享用免徵貨物稅的優惠，但這項免稅優惠即將在民國113年底結束，因為目前大家對復康巴士車輛的需求依然很大，所以我們提案修正要延長這個免稅優惠，來幫助所有需要的民眾。","現在全臺灣將近三分之一的縣市進入超高齡人口，代表年長者的比例越來越高，為了完善長照服務，讓長照的接送需求方面得以完善，我們一定要讓長輩們更有自主性、獨立性；另外，全臺灣約有121萬名身心障礙者在日常中很需要復康巴士來行動，對於很多行動不便的人來說，復康巴士就是他們的主要移動工具，可以讓他們更方便地去看病、辦事、參加很多社交活動等等。這樣的交通工具在他們的生活就是他們的雙腳，他們是靠著復康巴士在生活著，所以今天的修法我們提出復康巴士的免稅優惠將延長五年到118年12月31日，來幫助更多身心障礙者以及需要幫助的人，希望大家都可以有更好的生活。以上，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的發言。","報告院會，登記發言委員均已發言完畢。","現在進入討論事項第三案。","三、(一)本院司法及法制、內政兩委員會報告併案審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人及委員高金素梅等24人分別擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。（本案經提本院第11屆第1會期第9、11次會議報告決定：交司法及法制、內政兩委員會審查。茲接報告，爰於本次會議提出討論。）","(二)本院委員黃仁等29人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」，請審議案。","(三)本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條、第四條及第七條條文修正草案」，請審議案。（以上二案經提本院第11屆第2會期第6次會議報告決定：逕付二讀，與相關提案併案協商。爰於本次會議提出討論。）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"11310201_00004"}}},{"id":"157684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063226217901561759253f20b0db47dadbcaa176a6e8d24ed95747f46cb97eb1dba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"12:14:58 - 12:17:19","影片長度":"00:02:21","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T12:14:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T12:17:19+08:00","duration":141,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.269718750000003,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.621593750000002,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.30034375,"end":110.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.10221875,"end":134.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.02221875,"end":141.24096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.311,"end":26.372,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好在目前身心障礙復康巴士需要被課稅只是我們另外用可以免徵的規範讓今年底前身心障礙者復康巴士完成新領牌照登記者可以另外免徵貨物稅"},{"start":27.754,"end":40.749,"text":"只是隨著年底的期限越來越近但當我國的輪椅使用族群對載運輪椅車輛使用的需求從官方的成效報告看到的是越來越呈現成長的趨勢我認為"},{"start":43.032,"end":60.27,"text":"我們的政府在這個時候就應該要有基本的責任去思考一下以公益的出發點以社福政策的出發點是否對身心障礙族群外出通行的需求可以有更多更好的地方來考量因此本席認為身心障礙"},{"start":61.071,"end":70.135,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":88.243,"end":109.22,"text":"要課徵伸賬富康巴士貨物稅的時間起算點從2025年開始延長到2029年再來執行的修法提案也很開心看到行政院的版本也有相同的主張都認同不要這麼早在2025年就要開始對富康巴士課徵貨物稅而是一樣等到2029年再說"},{"start":111.201,"end":134.273,"text":"也請各位別忘了長照3.0的上路將從明年開始而規劃的草案也將在今年推出期待從貨物稅條例還有方方面面的法令政府都能夠做好社會福利國的憲法精神讓我們的長者讓身障族群都能夠獲得權益被真正重視被真正保障平等方便的享有參與社會非常感謝大家"},{"start":137.102,"end":138.627,"text":"委員陳靜薇等19人分別擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":36,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（12時15分）主席、各位委員，大家好！目前身心障礙復康巴士需要被課稅，只是我們另外用可以免徵的規範，讓今年底前身心障礙者復康巴士完成新領牌照登記者可以例外免徵貨物稅，但隨著年底的期限越來越近，我國的輪椅使用族群對載運輪椅車輛使用的需求，從官方的成效報告看到，越來越呈現成長的趨勢，我認為我們的政府在這個時候應該有基本的責任去思考，以公益的出發點、以社福政策的出發點，是否對身心障礙族群外出通行的需求要有更多更好的考量。","本席認為「身心障礙者權利公約」第九條的規定說得很對，政府也應該要透過貨物稅條例來落實，就是為使身心障礙者能夠獨立生活及充分參與生活各個方面，應採取適當的措施，確保他們在與其他人平等基礎上無障礙地進出物理環境，當中包含對於交通工具的使用，於是本席提出課徵身障復康巴士貨物稅的時間起算點從2025年延長到2029年再來執行的修法提案，很開心看到行政院的版本也有相同的主張，都認同不要這麼早，在2025年就要開始對復康巴士課徵貨物稅，而是一樣等到2029年再說。","請各位也別忘了長照3.0的上路將從明年開始，規劃的草案也將在今年推出，期待從貨物稅條例，還有方方面面的法令，政府都能夠做好社會福利國的憲法精神，讓我們的長者、身障族群權益都能夠被真正重視、被真正保障，享有平等、方便的參與社會。非常感謝大家！"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言。","接下來請張智倫委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"11310201_00004"}}},{"id":"157683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70638235e370c9586e1753f20b0db47dadbcaa176a6e8d24ed952843dd09ca1b81945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:12:34 - 12:14:54","影片長度":"00:02:20","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T12:12:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T12:14:54+08:00","duration":140,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.388468750000001,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.31221875,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.78846875,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.294093750000002,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.74034375,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.684718750000002,"end":43.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.20971875,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.111593750000004,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.47971875,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.21221875,"end":112.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.58721875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.24659375000002,"end":138.84471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.435,"end":10.481,"text":"截至113年6月身心障礙者人口數122萬餘人"},{"start":12.864,"end":36.832,"text":"如將其家屬納入至少約有360萬人然而身心障礙家庭多數因為社心地位低落、社福環境不完善而成為了台灣社會中最容易被忽略的一群為扭轉身心障礙在社會上的一個弱勢政府應積極提出身心障礙者無障礙的生活環境之政策"},{"start":37.572,"end":64.404,"text":"身心障礙權利公約強調所有身心障礙者都應享有與一般人相同的人權並且明示為使身心障礙者能夠獨立生活充分的參與生活各個方面締約國應該採取適當措施確保身心障礙者在與其他人一樣的平等基礎上無障礙的前進、物理、環境、使用交通工具"},{"start":65.224,"end":84.579,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":91.084,"end":102.412,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案：本院教育及文化委員會報告"},{"start":112.959,"end":127.35,"text":"實有延長之必要因此我與張志倫委員共同提案《貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案》此次三讀將富康巴士載輪輪椅的使用者免徵貨物稅將期限延長至118年12月31日謝謝羅廷威委員的發言接下來我們請陳金威發言張志倫委員請準備"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":29,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時12分）截至113年6月，身心障礙者人口數一百二十二萬餘人，如將其家屬納入，至少約有360萬人，然而身心障礙家庭多數因為社經地位低落、社福環境不完善，而成為臺灣社會中最容易被忽略的一群。為扭轉身心障礙者在社會上的弱勢，政府應積極提出身心障礙者無障礙的生活環境之政策。","身心障礙者權利公約強調所有身心障礙者都應享有與一般人相同的人權，並且明示為使身心障礙者能夠獨立生活，充分地參與生活各個方面，締約國應該採取適當措施，確保身心障礙者在與其他人一樣平等的基礎上，有無障礙前進的物理環境、使用交通工具。身為締約國之一的臺灣，政府應積極地處理差別待遇，扶助並照顧經濟上弱勢之國人。","明年臺灣將邁入高齡化社會，為因應整體環境的需求，政府應積極建構高齡者及身心障礙者之無障礙的友善環境，這是你我一起應有的責任，並促進其自立生活。惟復康巴士載運輪椅使用者免徵貨物稅推行以來成效良好，如無障礙車所有車輛數顯著提升為免徵貨物稅相關規定在今年年底要到期，為持續推動這樣相關的政策，實有延長之必要，因此我與張智倫委員共同提案貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案，此次三讀將復康巴士載用輪椅的使用者免徵貨物稅，將期限延長至118年12月31日。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的發言。","接下來我們請陳菁徽發言，張智倫委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"11310201_00004"}}},{"id":"157682","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157682","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b706339d7982a3e937b3053f20b0db47dadbcf12b926cb175917aec6f0a0ad4d1e0835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:44:24 - 11:46:44","影片長度":"00:02:20","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T11:44:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T11:46:44+08:00","duration":140,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.755968750000001,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.75971875,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":137.78159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.933,"end":30.709,"text":"衛福部日前公布2023年國人十大死因青少年自殺死亡率近年來可以說是逐步攀升0到24歲的自殺死亡率從2018年起一路攀升從每10萬人口3.7人到連續6年都是往上的趨勢到了2023年已經來到每10萬人有5.5人暴增了150%顯示青少年心理健康問題應該要獲得各界更多的重視"},{"start":31.61,"end":47.405,"text":"本次三讀的學生輔導法修正高級中等以下學校主管機關所設學生輔導中心任務包含統籌規劃、配置以及運用專業輔導人員等並且提供嚴重行為偏差、嚴重自我傷害學生的輔導諮商使學生"},{"start":49.107,"end":63.554,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":71.297,"end":91.753,"text":"每滿900人增至專任專業輔導人員一人未滿900人而餘數達450人以上者得至業務需求增至一人除此學生能夠享有更加豐沛的輔導資源也使每一位專業輔導人員的工作量可以更加的合理雖然本次修法仍有許多的未盡之處"},{"start":92.273,"end":114.335,"text":"立如專業輔導人員的待遇提升受限於行政院的立場沒有能夠達到我們希望的水準但是未來我們仍會為學生的心理健康以及第一線輔導人員的待遇全力的衝刺努力此外因科技的持續進步我們也期望未來能夠結合更多的AI工具科技的工具來協助輔導人員"},{"start":116.797,"end":124.361,"text":"實質地減輕他們的工作負擔並且在這些先進科技的協助之下促進學生的心理健康謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":802,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時44分）衛福部日前公布2023年國人十大死因，青少年自殺死亡率近年來可以說是逐步攀升，0到24歲的自殺死亡率從2018年起一路攀升，從每10萬人口3.7人，連續6年都是往上的趨勢，到了2023年已經來到每10萬人有5.5人，暴增了150%，顯示青少年心理健康問題應該要獲得各界更多的重視。","本次三讀的學生輔導法修正高級中等以下學校主管機關所設學生輔導中心任務，包含統籌規劃、配置以及運用專業輔導人員等，並且提供嚴重行為偏差、嚴重自我傷害學生的輔導諮商，使學生輔導諮商中心的運作能夠更符合現況，也更能守護學生的心理健康。同時，我最關注的中央主管機關所轄學校數與專輔人員比例，增加專輔人力也納入本次的修正，調整為專科以上學校學生900人以下者，應置專任專業輔導人員至少1人，超過900人者，每滿900人增置專任專業輔導人員1人，未滿900人而餘數達450人以上者，得視業務需求增置1人，除使學生能夠享有更加豐沛的輔導資源，也使每一位專業輔導人員的工作量可以更加合理。","雖然本次修法仍有許多的未竟之處，例如專業輔導人員的待遇提升，受限於行政院的立場，沒有能夠達到我們希望的水準，但是未來我們仍會為學生的心理健康，以及第一線輔導人員的待遇，全力衝刺努力。","此外，因應科技的持續進步，我們也期望未來能夠結合更多的AI工具、科技的工具來協助輔導人員，實質的減輕他們的工作負擔，並且在這些先進科技的協助之下，促進學生的心理健康，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員的發言。","報告院會，登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時46分）","繼續開會（11時53分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"11310201_00001"}}},{"id":"157681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063a14fab376da7a2e053f20b0db47dadbcf12b926cb175917a5058fd8dc612a10d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:41:46 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11:39:24","影片長度":"00:02:28","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T11:36:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T11:39:24+08:00","duration":148,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.598468750000002,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.16534375,"end":141.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.57846875,"end":143.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.86909375000002,"end":147.21471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.389,"end":26.855,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁學輔法上路十年終於可以修正通過可以更符合學輔的現況根據教育部校園自殺通報案件的建樹統計顯示國小、國中、高中以及大專校園"},{"start":27.715,"end":32.119,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具在106學年度的自殺案件分別是114、470、626、378但是到111學年的時候分別增加到了1183、4204、2996"},{"start":43.57,"end":57.379,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳"},{"start":60.121,"end":75.435,"text":"這些資料再再顯示學校的輔導機制及人力及待改善本次學生輔導法的修正、修保的版本經過多次與諮商心理師公會全聯會以及台灣輔導與諮商學會及台灣諮商心理學會討論針對專輔人員以及學校的輔導機制改善的需求、明定"},{"start":83.183,"end":98.665,"text":"當學生的輔導涉及不同主體兼有權力衝突時應該優先以考量兒少權益保障採取符合兒少居家利益解釋以維護兒少居家利益為原則本次修法最大的重點也是增加了"},{"start":99.205,"end":105.07,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":120.303,"end":136.233,"text":"還有加強辦理輔導人員多元在職進修持續的來協助教師增能讓學校的輔導機制能夠更完善而教育部也規劃預計可以在110學年度提早完成輔導教師配置謝謝陳秀寶委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時37分）謝謝主席。各位同仁，學輔法上路10年了，今天終於可以修正通過，可以更符合學輔的現況。根據教育部校園自殺通報案件的件數統計顯示，國小、國中、高中以及大專校院在106學年度的自殺案件分別是114、470、626、378件，但是到111學年的時候，分別增加到了1,183、4,204、2,996以及3,280件，每個就學階段都提高了5到10倍，其中國小暴增最多，高達10倍。教育部也分析，高中以下學生自殺有高達八成的自殺死亡學生沒有向輔導室求助，這些資料在在顯示學校的輔導機制及人力亟待改善。本次學生輔導法的修正，秀寳的版本經過多次與諮商心理師公會全聯會、台灣輔導與諮商學會及臺灣諮商心理學會討論，針對專輔人員以及學校輔導機制改善的需求，明定當學生的輔導涉及不同主體間有權力衝突時，應該優先考量兒少權益保障，採取符合兒少最佳利益解釋，以維護兒少最佳利益為原則。","本次修法最大的重點是增加了輔導教師以及專業輔導人員的人力，減輕專輔人員壓力，讓校園的輔導業務能夠更全面地執行。這次修法也增列了學生輔諮中心的任務，能夠健全學生輔諮中心的運作，促進三級輔導及跨專業合作，希望接住每一位有需求的學生。還有加強辦理輔導人員多元在職進修，持續地來協助教師增能，讓學校的輔導機制能夠更完善，而教育部也預計可以在114學年度提早完成輔導教師配置。秀寳希望我們能夠提高兒少使用校內輔導資源的意願，讓我們接住每一位需要的孩子，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員發言。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言，郭昱晴委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"11310201_00001"}}},{"id":"157678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063b0ac787a9721ce9f53f20b0db47dadbcf12b926cb175917a52f4ff4b236371f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:34:34 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11:36:52","影片長度":"00:02:18","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T11:34:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T11:36:52+08:00","duration":138,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.6340937500000001,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.29596875,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.38284375,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.63034375,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.97596875000002,"end":138.18659375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.97,"end":3.572,"text":"請第十位陳秀寶委員準備"},{"start":16.731,"end":41.974,"text":"謝謝主席那我首先呢要謝謝在修法期間協助我們辦公室討論並且理解現場困境的所有專家學者還有所有團體的成員們是你們讓我們知道孩子們正在遭遇的困境另外我要謝謝很多兒少代表直接來告訴我們在教育的現場他們所需要的協助跟他們所面臨的議題困境到底是什麼我必須要說學復法通過之後其實"},{"start":42.935,"end":57.954,"text":"每一個委員都說我們好像可以接住每一個孩子了但實話是我們在接住每一個孩子的路上我們其實還有很長很長很長的路要走對於數位原生世代的小孩來說他們此時此刻所面臨的困境"},{"start":58.234,"end":58.674,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":78.135,"end":102.78,"text":"但未來我們認為還有非常多的議題需要大家共同來關心在這次修法當中我積極主張要納入少年矯正學校同時要要求各縣市輔資中心主管要有輔導專業的人才能夠擔任主管另外我也積極的要求要增加學校專輔教師還有輔資中心專輔人員的人力配置同時我也希望學校的每一個教職員工"},{"start":103.66,"end":105.861,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":122.327,"end":122.788,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":783,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時34分）謝謝主席。我首先要謝謝在修法期間協助我們辦公室討論並且理解現場困境的所有專家學者，還有所有團體的成員們，是你們讓我們知道孩子們正在遭遇的困境。另外，我要謝謝很多兒少代表直接來告訴我們在教育的現場他們所需要的協助，跟他們所面臨的議題困境到底是什麼，我必須要說，在學輔法通過之後，其實每一個委員都說，我們好像可以接住每一個孩子了，但是說實話，我們在接住每一個孩子的路上其實還有很長、很長、很長的路要走。對於數位原生世代的小孩來說，他們此時此刻所面臨的困境跟他們的心理議題，絕對不是我們這些大人能夠想像的，在現場唯一可以幫助他們的是老師、是同學還有他們的父母親，但是目前在教育體制當中，學校輔導的現場還有很多的困境，希望可以透過這次學生輔導法的修法，我們讓它變得更好。","我們認為未來還有非常多的議題需要大家共同來關心，在這次修法當中，我積極主張要納入少年矯正學校，同時要要求各縣市輔諮中心要有輔導專業的人才能夠擔任主管。另外，我也積極地要求要增加學校專輔教師還有輔諮中心專輔人員的人力配置。同時，我也希望學校的每一個教職員工都能夠具備輔導知能，不管你是在哪一個層級為學生服務，也就是三級輔導機制真的必須要落實。同時，我也希望學校要積極完善輔導空間，並且對於學生的輔導資料給予保護。在未來還有許多子法要同時修改，我希望在未來修子法的過程當中，所有的專家學者、兒少代表還有所有的委員，我們能夠共同繼續努力，為學生打造一個更好的學習環境和成長空間，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員發言。","接下來請登記第10位陳秀寳委員發言，楊瓊瓔委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"11310201_00001"}}},{"id":"157677","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157677","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b706396fcad3e43cb388553f20b0db47dadbcf12b926cb175917a73945759db2c21775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:32:39 - 11:34:30","影片長度":"00:01:51","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T11:32:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T11:34:30+08:00","duration":111,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":102.15846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.11596875000001,"end":109.85346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.543,"end":16.29,"text":"根據兒扶去年公布的國高中生的心理健康調查發現學生的壓力程度高達12.2%憂鬱的情緒程度達嚴重的有17%也就是說不論是在課業上、人際關係上還是家庭都會為青少年帶來壓力跟負面的情緒而需要被重視跟關懷在這一次學輔法的修法的重點"},{"start":30.7,"end":51.816,"text":"就是希望透過這次的修法能夠健全輔導中心的運作並且藉由我們現在社會的支持還有外部的輔導資源提升兒少的心理健康但是這一次人力就是運作是不是能夠成功順利的重要關鍵但是我們長期都知道以地方上政府的人力來說"},{"start":52.717,"end":64.439,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":79.662,"end":101.355,"text":"期待這次修法之後,我也深信能夠透過壯大我們的學輔中心,讓學輔中心成為專輔人員的後盾,讓專輔人員成為學生的避風港,進而提升專業服務的效益,保障我們學生的輔導品質。再次感謝所有朝野黨派對這次學輔法的支持,謝謝。"},{"start":104.181,"end":104.802,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時32分）根據兒福去年公布的國、高中生心理健康調查發現，學生的壓力程度高達12.2%，憂鬱的情緒程度達嚴重的有17%，也就是說，不論是在課業上、人際關係上還是家庭，都會為青少年帶來壓力跟負面的情緒，需要被重視跟關懷。這一次學輔法的修法重點就是希望透過修法能夠健全輔導中心的運作，並且藉由我們現在社會的支持，還有外部的輔導資源，提升兒少的心理健康。","這一次人力就是運作是不是能夠成功順利的重要關鍵，但是我們長期都知道，以地方上政府的人力來說，過去無論是檢討食安的問題、保護社工，還有包括人力是不是能夠充實，關鍵都是在人力跟薪資待遇還有案量的負荷、工作保障、勞動條件等等。因此，在這一次的修法當中，我提出的版本正是要求要有足夠的輔導人力，減輕輔導人員的案量負荷，別再讓專輔人員被壓榨。","期待這一次修法之後，我也深信，能夠透過壯大我們的學輔中心，讓學輔中心成為專輔人員的後盾，讓專輔人員成為學生的避風港，進而提升專業服務的效益，保障學生的輔導品質。再一次感謝所有朝野黨派，對於這一次學輔法的支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的發言。接下來請登記第9位陳培瑜委員發言。","請第10位陳秀寳委員準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"11310201_00001"}}},{"id":"157676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063f39ced9dcee8bd4553f20b0db47dadbcf12b926cb175917ae6203fd8a27c331a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:30:41 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11:32:34","影片長度":"00:01:53","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T11:30:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T11:32:34+08:00","duration":113,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.236593750000001,"end":25.714718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.28846875,"end":56.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.45659375,"end":73.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.19659375,"end":81.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.09409375,"end":106.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.55846875,"end":113.21159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.607,"end":23.402,"text":"與諮商心理師來來回回開過無數會議花費近兩年的時間反覆摸索改革的方案如今終於讓學生輔導法三讀通過關於學生輔導諮商中心該有怎樣的組織地位該如何解決專輔人員高離職率的問題"},{"start":26.605,"end":48.86,"text":"並提升任職的意願同時提供學生更加完備的輔導諮商管道這些長期困擾我們的問題得到階段性的解決方案感謝跨黨派委員的支持讓我提的第四條條文能夠通過審查成為正式的法律文字我的提案版本中明確規範無論是中央或者地方主管機關面對學生輔導諮商中心的運作都應當寬列預算"},{"start":56.425,"end":57.847,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":74.464,"end":89.243,"text":"調整相關運行策略讓學生輔導諮詢中心的整體運作能夠得到有效率的監督不會輕易因為行政慣性而僵化發現不足處就應該及時更正不用等到下一次的修法"},{"start":89.844,"end":113.028,"text":"然而我們也相當清楚許多的困境當然不會因為一次修法而消失為了打造更好的學生輔導諮商環境我將持續與諮商心理師攜手打拚也與所有的教文委員會的委員們一起打拚一起加油謝謝大家謝謝林宜瑾委員的發言接下來請登記第8位李燕秀委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時30分）與諮商心理師來來回回開過無數會議，花費近兩年的時間反覆摸索改革的方案，如今終於讓學生輔導法三讀通過。關於學生輔導諮商中心該有怎樣的組織地位，該如何解決專輔人員高離職率的問題，並提升任職的意願，同時提供學生更加完備的輔導諮商管道，這些長期困擾我們的問題，得到階段性的解決方案。","感謝跨黨派委員的支持，讓我提的第四條條文能夠通過審查，成為正式的法律文字。我的提案版本中明確規範，無論是中央或者地方主管機關，面對學生輔導諮商中心的運作都應當寬列預算，並且所謂的「寬列預算」是有明確的任務目的，為的就是要提升中心的專業，以及專輔人員的任職意願，換句話說，現行的勞動條件必須有所改革。","另外，我的提案版本也要求中央與地方主管機關，逐年都應滾動式的檢討，調整相關運行的策略，讓學生輔導諮商中心的整體運作能夠得到有效率的監督，不會輕易因為行政慣性而僵化，發現不足處就應該即時更正，不用等到下一次的修法。然而我們也相當清楚，許多困境當然不會因為一次修法而消失，為了打造更好的學生輔導諮商環境，我將持續與諮商心理師攜手打拼，也與所有教文委員會的委員們一起打拼，一起加油。謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員的發言。接下來請登記第8位李彥秀委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"11310201_00001"}}},{"id":"157675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b706308f84ca6117f455553f20b0db47dadbcf12b926cb175917a0a97a5adeee0372c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:28:19 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二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T11:28:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T11:30:36+08:00","duration":137,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.872218750000002,"end":103.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.59284375,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.09596875000001,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.83409375000001,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.21346875,"end":132.41534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":15.659,"text":"主席各位同仁學生輔導法在剛剛正式三讀修法通過感謝在這段時間以來我們教育委員會柯之恩教委以及所有教育委員會的同仁大家共同努力我們讓學生輔導法更加的精進"},{"start":16.98,"end":38.485,"text":"承接學生的實際需求提升諮商品質並且舒緩專輔人員各案的負荷量這是我們當初在提案修法的初衷並且能夠合理地補足校園專業的輔導人力健全學生輔資中心的組織運作還有強化三級輔導的分工跟合作"},{"start":39.125,"end":61.27,"text":"所以在這次的修法裡面特別四大部分爭取高中以下學校主管機關設有學生輔導諮商中心重新檢討調整學生輔導諮商中心的任務並且精進、發展性、介入性、處遇性的三級輔導合作還有將現行高中以下學校"},{"start":62.81,"end":87.157,"text":"55班以上學校設置專輔人員一人導致學校雖然有專輔人員的需求但是未達55班以上就沒有辦法設置專輔人員這樣的狀況我們也要求由學校主管機關依照主管的學校總數、學生人數、輔導案量以及地域區、地理區域等特性來加以討論、配置專輔人員"},{"start":89.398,"end":106.477,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":107.998,"end":131.545,"text":"再次強調學生輔導法沒有最好只有更好在過去這段時間我們共同努力就是希望完善我們的學校環境完善我們的輔導環境讓每一位孩子都受到重視這是我們一起努力的目標謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言接下來我們請登記第七位林宜瑾委員請發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":772,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時28分）主席、各位同仁。學生輔導法在剛剛正式三讀修法通過，感謝在這段時間以來教育委員會柯志恩召委及所有教育委員會的同仁共同努力，我們讓學生輔導法更加的精進，承接學生的實際需求，提升諮商品質，並且紓緩專輔人員個案的負荷量，這是我們當初提案修法的初衷，並且能夠合理的補足校園專業的輔導人力，健全學生輔諮中心的組織運作，還有強化三級輔導的分工跟合作。所以在這次的修法裡面，特別著重於四大部分，包括爭取高中以下學校主管機關設有學生輔導諮商中心，重新檢討調整學生輔導諮商中心的任務，並且精進發展性、介入性、處遇性的三級輔導合作，還有將現行高中以下學校55班以上學校設置專輔人員一人，導致學校雖然有專輔人員的需求，但是未達55班以上就沒有辦法設置專輔人員的狀況，我們也要求由學校主管機關依照主管的學校總數、學生人數、輔導案量以及地理區域等特性來加以討論，配置專輔人員。最後，規定專科以上學校學生人數1,200人以下，改為900人以下就應該要增設一名專業的輔導人員，我想配置合理數額的專業輔導人員，這才是我們的初衷。再一次強調，學生輔導法沒有最好、只有更好，在過去這段時間，我們共同努力，就是希望完善我們的學校環境，完善我們的輔導環境，讓每一位孩子都受到重視，這是我們一起努力的目標。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言。接下來我們請登記第7位林宜瑾委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"11310201_00001"}}},{"id":"157674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063e2777c33d8d64d0953f20b0db47dadbcf12b926cb175917adbb0adfc082709ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"11:26:06 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11:28:14","影片長度":"00:02:08","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T11:26:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T11:28:14+08:00","duration":128,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.03471875,"end":3.1359687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.60846875,"end":5.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.59534375,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.88409375,"end":52.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.799093750000004,"end":86.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.00471875000001,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.59346875,"end":116.68784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.42596875000001,"end":124.04534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.649,"end":20.862,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好本席在這邊深深的感謝所提案的學生輔導法第十一條修正草案能夠在今天一起與本黨參與提案、參與審查、參與草野協商的各委員們版本最終走到三讀通過的結果"},{"start":22.043,"end":43.24,"text":"今年4月在我提出的學生輔導法第十一條草案的時候官方調查顯示有四分之一國高中生曾經認真考慮過自殺今年最新統計指出5年來的校園自殺通報案件近成長5到10倍而在5到10倍當中又以國中的案件最多"},{"start":43.86,"end":70.207,"text":"死亡率以高中值最高而且還有八成的自殺、死亡學生生前都沒有尋找輔導士幫忙更別說校園霸凌、師生衝突的案件攀升都再再地告訴我們有關學校新輔人員配置的規範以及待遇等等法定條件等一定要修法才能好好的接住需要被關心的孩子們因此本席提案要增高專輔人員的數量"},{"start":72.388,"end":98.187,"text":"提高專輔業務對於學校數、班級數、人數都要在覆蓋率更密集今天三讀通過的內容將會把目前高中以下學校班級數達55班應設置專輔人員1人改成每20間學校至少要有1人並且增加學生總數的基數計算標準之下還能依照需求來專案核定額外專任的專輔人數"},{"start":99.668,"end":115.701,"text":"我們要把校園環境內的心理健康安全網編織得更加綿密更好期待在未來新法上路以後能真正的更好去促進與維護學生身心健康還有全人發展非常感謝所有委員的參與謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（11時26分）主席、各位委員，大家好。本席在這邊深深地感謝所提案的學生輔導法第十一條修正草案能夠在今天一起與本黨參與提案、參與審查、參與朝野協商的各委員們版本最終走到三讀通過的結果。今年4月在我提出學生輔導法第十一條修正草案的時候，官方調查顯示，有四分之一的國、高中生曾經認真考慮過自殺，今年最新統計指出，5年來的校園自殺通報案件竟成長5到10倍，而在這5到10倍當中，又以國中的案件最多，死亡率以高中職最高，而且還有八成的自殺死亡學生生前都沒有尋找輔導室幫忙。更別說校園霸凌、師生衝突的案件攀升，都在在地告訴我們有關學校心輔人員配置的規範以及待遇等等法定條件，一定要修法，才能好好的接住需要被關心的孩子們。因此，本席提案要增高專輔人員的數量，提高專輔業務對於學校數、班級數、人數的覆蓋率都要更密集。今天三讀通過的內容，將會把目前高中以下學校班級數達55班應設置專輔人員一人，改成每20間學校至少要有一人，並且增加在學生總數的基數計算標準之下，還能依照需求來專案核定額外專任的專輔人數。","我們要把校園環境內的心理健康安全網編織得更加綿密、更好，期待在未來新法上路以後，能真正的、更好的去促進與維護學生身心健康及全人發展，非常感謝所有委員的參與。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。","接下來請登記第6位洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"11310201_00001"}}},{"id":"157673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70632b0f31a86b6d9cde53f20b0db47dadbcf12b926cb175917afaaab92e9403bad85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:23:47 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基層同仁，有什麼問題都可以反映給部長，還提供自己個人專屬的email、手機號碼，請問今天基層的同仁看到週末要加班跟部長報告的會議通知，又有多少人真的敢傳簡訊給部長呢？根本就不會有，早就死心了吧！因為部長本人就是做出最不合理要求的對象，基層做事的人又怎麼敢認真的反映問題呢？因此，本席今天想要問大家，如果施加霸凌行為、增加精神損害的人就是部長本人，請問我們基層同胞又該如何是好呢？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言。","接下來請登記第10位楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張嘉郡","許宇甄","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","葉元之","羅智強","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"11310201_00007"}}},{"id":"157668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063ecdca68d8dce2f6453f20b0db47dadbc7be04044c27fbc32f4276e10a0b5a9ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:24:30 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二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T09:21:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T09:24:25+08:00","duration":203,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.181593750000001,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.56471875,"end":16.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.922843750000002,"end":35.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.78909375,"end":38.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.180968750000005,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.407843750000005,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.83784375,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.46284375,"end":104.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.26346875,"end":105.71909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.27596875,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.36846875,"end":112.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.39721875000001,"end":119.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.04596875000001,"end":125.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.12096875,"end":129.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.08659375000002,"end":148.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.69971875000002,"end":156.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.90096875,"end":161.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.84534375,"end":170.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.37971875000002,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.61909375000002,"end":185.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.60534375,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.38034375,"end":200.72534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.223,"end":8.889,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":10.401,"end":14.803,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具這件事情實際上就是一種團結台灣但是很可惜的是民進黨本質就是喜歡分化台灣喜歡給人扣帽子最近我提了一個民防法的修正案"},{"start":39.255,"end":65.758,"text":"民進黨馬上就說這在掏空國防這在害台灣這個是中共協作者真的很可惜啊台灣沒有好好理性討論公共政策的空間只要你的意見跟民進黨不一樣你就會被扣上紅帽子好像只有他們愛台灣你都在害台灣我修的名方法是把學生加入學校防護團這一條把它修掉讓學生免加入學校防護團"},{"start":66.459,"end":66.679,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":85.632,"end":101.35,"text":"一個15歲的學生為什麼當打仗的時候他不能夠在家長旁邊為什麼不能在家裡跟家長在一起而必須要去運送物資支援前線民進黨為什麼就是要讓這些15、16、17歲這些學生去上戰場呢"},{"start":105.319,"end":124.288,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":130.151,"end":147.523,"text":"主一個教師團隊到學校裡面教學生怎麼自我防衛在捷運上遇到壞人怎麼辦平常怎麼自救現在就可以做這個東西到底跟學校防護團有什麼關係第三我就問請問一下現在哪一個學校有學校防護團"},{"start":148.769,"end":160.635,"text":"我問教育部 教育部說不知道請問內政部我問內政部 內政部說不知道請問警政署代表說現在沒有一個機關知道學校有沒有學校防護團"},{"start":161.909,"end":190.669,"text":"那如果你覺得學校保護團這麼重要為什麼現在沒有人知道這個組織也沒有刻意去組這個組織那為什麼組不起來因為例如上個月教育部要求學校去發青年扶勤同意書結果沒有人要填沒有人要參加家長恐慌最後國防部長說不要再發了所以你繼續做的事情就是找學生麻煩找家長麻煩希望民進黨懸崖了嘛"},{"start":194.46,"end":195.741,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的發言接下來請登記第8號羅志強委員請發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":35,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（9時21分）最近我國棒球在世界上得到最好的成績──世界冠軍！我們的賴清德總統難得展現出了高度，他說無論是中華隊、臺灣隊都是我國的棒球隊，得到勝利都是全體國人的榮耀以及棒球員的榮耀。這件事情實際上就是一種團結臺灣，但是很可惜的是，民進黨本質就是喜歡分化臺灣、喜歡給人家扣帽子！","最近我提了一個民防法的修正案，民進黨馬上就說，這在掏空國防、這在害臺灣、這個是中共協作者！真的很可惜，臺灣沒有好好理性討論公共政策的空間，只要你的意見跟民進黨不一樣，你就會被扣上紅帽子，好像只有他們愛臺灣，你都在害臺灣！我修的民防法是把學生加入學校防護團的這一條修掉，讓學生免加入學校防護團。為什麼呢？因為學校防護團的目的是平常要編組、戰時要支援軍事活動，戰時支援軍事活動就是讓這些學生平常去支援前線、去運送物資，然後去旁邊指引避難的道路。我就問！一個十五歲的學生為什麼打仗的時候不能夠在家長旁邊、為什麼不能在家裡跟家長在一起，而必須要去運送物資、支援前線？民進黨為什麼就是要讓這些十五、十六、十七歲的學生上戰場呢？","第二，最好笑的是內政部，他表示如果修了民防法之後會置學生於險境，比如學生在捷運上遇到有人要隨機傷人，沒有自我防衛的能力。我的天啊！內政部，如果你覺得學生要有自我防衛能力，你現在就可以做啊！不管有沒有學校防護團，你可以立刻組一個教師團隊，到學校裡面教學生怎麼自我防衛、在捷運上遇到壞人怎麼辦、平常怎麼自救，現在就可以做啊！這個東西到底跟學校防護團有什麼關係？","第三，我就問！請問一下，現在哪一個學校有學校防護團，我問教育部，教育部說：不知道，請問內政部；我問內政部，內政部說：不知道。請問警政署，代表現在沒有一個機關知道學校有沒有學校防護團，如果你覺得學校防護團這麼重要，為什麼現在沒有人知道這個組織、也沒有刻意去組這個組織？那為什麼組不起來？例如上個月教育部要求學校去發青年服勤同意書，結果沒有人要填、沒有人要參加，家長恐慌！最後國防部長說：不要再發了。所以你繼續做的事情就是找學生麻煩、找家長麻煩，希望民進黨懸崖勒馬！"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的發言。","接下來請登記第8號羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張嘉郡","許宇甄","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","葉元之","羅智強","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"11310201_00007"}}},{"id":"157666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063b4c66bb9431a684b53f20b0db47dadbc7be04044c27fbc32d4ef907c701a5e415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:17:38 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二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T09:17:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T09:20:57+08:00","duration":199,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.662218750000001,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.77971875,"end":18.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.57659375,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.68159375,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.66346875,"end":138.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":148.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.85159375,"end":157.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.13284375,"end":163.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.56221875,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.72596875000002,"end":187.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.21284375000002,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.63034375,"end":190.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.58284375000002,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.78471875000002,"end":199.24034375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.96,"end":34.184,"text":"謝謝院長各位親愛的家人大家早安今天要和大家談的政府資源分配與施政效力的問題嚴重影響我們的權利與國家的未來光光相互之一亂花人民的血汗錢人民如何信任政府"},{"start":35.344,"end":62.275,"text":"經濟部一一三年度總預算稅入高達兩兆七千兩百多億但農業部僅是在四月就未進口但補貼了五點七億當我們提出刪減未審查的經費兩百四十萬時民進黨立委竟表示錢已經花完了不能刪"},{"start":64.415,"end":81.481,"text":"事問為審查的經費可以讓行政部門任意使用嗎請教我們人民你們接受嗎觀光相互之二28年的制度是否檢討原住民族群委員每年耗費了2200萬平均每人高達135萬"},{"start":88.823,"end":104.436,"text":"但功能多為跑腿性質對於國家考試的文官待遇情何以堪28年來從未檢討歷史永久不是改革的理由資源應用來"},{"start":106.097,"end":131.49,"text":"應用來真正改善原住民的權益而非仇用養磚腳的制度觀光先戶之三勞動部資源濫用誰來監督每年勞動部救安基金就收入284億元應用於移工與企業溝通及管理的經費"},{"start":132.551,"end":155.027,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":158.186,"end":163.303,"text":"不絕浪費、讓資源用在真正需要的政策"},{"start":164.705,"end":189.712,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":194.608,"end":195.652,"text":"委員林宜瑾等18人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":29,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時17分）謝謝院長，各位親愛的家人，大家早安。今天要和大家談政府資源分配與施政效率的問題，嚴重影響我們的權利與國家的未來。官官相護之一，亂花人民的血汗錢，人民如何信任政府，經濟部113年度總預算歲入高達兩兆七千兩百多億，但農業部僅僅在4月就為進口蛋補貼5.7億，當我們提出刪減未審查的經費240萬時，民進黨立委竟表示錢已經花完了，不能刪，試問未審查的經費可以讓行政部門任意使用嗎？請教我們的人民，你們接受嗎？","官官相護之二，28年的制度是否檢討，原住民族委員會每年耗費了2,200萬，平均每人高達135萬，但功能多為跑腿性質，對於國家考試的文官待遇情何以堪？28年來從未檢討。歷史悠久不是不改革的理由，資源需要運用在真正改善原住民的權利，而非酬庸養樁腳的制度。","官官相護之三，勞動部資源濫用誰來監督？每年勞動部就安基金收入284億元，應用於移工於企業溝通及管理的經費，但卻被拿來辦演唱會，這樣的濫用對納稅人的錢以及移工族群公平嗎？相關單位必須給人民一個交代。","臺灣人民醒來吧！政府應該為人民服務而不是特權護航者，我們呼籲賴政府，杜絕浪費，讓資源用在真正需要的政策，以人民的權利與國家的未來為核心，只有穩定與高效的施政才能讓臺灣進步、讓人民安定樂業，讓我們攜手努力，共同捍衛臺灣的權利、守護臺灣。臺灣加油！人民加油！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員的發言。","接下來請登記第7位葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張嘉郡","許宇甄","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","葉元之","羅智強","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"11310201_00007"}}},{"id":"157665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157665","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063299211bc3f63d1dc53f20b0db47dadbc7be04044c27fbc3214c0753048fa81f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:14:16 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舉國歡騰 大家都沉浸在贏球的喜悅但是絕對不會因為贏球而忘記勞動部有一位公務員不幸離開這樣的一個霸凌事件我們不可能也不願意忘記我們必須要持續追究"},{"start":24.088,"end":51.699,"text":"不只現在行政院長卓榮泰下令徹查教育部、衛福部、經濟部、交通部的霸凌案件甚至外交部、國科會也都傳出相關也因此可見職場霸凌積習已久公務員確實有苦難言這是關鍵的時刻這是全民都在看的時刻這是展現政府大是大非有沒有決心要面對霸凌的時刻因此我們要求"},{"start":52.867,"end":81.034,"text":"卓院長說一個月內完成調查並且對外說明的宗旨是真的要痛定思痛是真的要改革重點是各部會的調查都是要完真的不要打假球不要又是一個目的良善、官官相護、避重就輕、投過生就過的調查報告國人絕對沒有辦法接受沒有真相的調查報告就是糊弄就是會更讓國人看不起"},{"start":81.594,"end":103.765,"text":"再者我們要呼籲現在新任的勞動部長不要到了部會就耍官威你的上任並不是因為你天資聰穎並不是因為你深得信任而是因為一個公務員的離開逼迫你要去做救火隊但是救火隊還沒做成我們已經看到在做血汗工廠"},{"start":104.445,"end":109.691,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":125.248,"end":150.128,"text":"倒個班、接接電話、倒倒茶水或者是你只要來幾個小時但重點是通勤的時間以及上下班的時間還有六日休息家人的照顧的時間這一些怎麼算?看到勞動部在昨天改口就代表是說你也知道這樣的狀況其實是不對的其實是不允許的其實是違反勞基勞動相關法令的"},{"start":151.075,"end":152.396,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":181.155,"end":187.459,"text":"防霸凌絕對不能打假球這是我們給民進黨政府最後的忠告謝謝謝謝洪孟愷委員的發言接下來請登記第6號麥玉珍委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":24,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時14分）世界12強棒球賽，中華隊表現亮眼，舉國歡騰，大家都沉浸在贏球的喜悅，但是絕對不會因為贏球而忘記勞動部有一位公務員不幸離開，這樣的霸凌事件，我們不可能也不願意忘記，我們必須要持續追究，不只現在行政院長卓榮泰下令，徹查教育部、衛福部、經濟部、交通部的霸凌案件，甚至外交部、國科會也都傳出相關，也因此可見職場霸凌積習已久，公務員確實有苦難言。這是關鍵的時刻，這是全民都在看的時刻，這是展現政府大是大非、有沒有決心要面對霸凌的時刻，因此我們要求，卓院長說一個月內完成調查並且對外說明的宗旨是真的要痛定思痛、是真的要改革，重點是各部會的調查都是要玩真的，不要打假球，不要又是一個目的良善、官官相護、避重就輕、頭過身就過的調查報告，國人絕對沒有辦法接受，沒有真相的調查報告，就是糊弄，就是會更讓國人看不起。","再者，我們要呼籲現在新任的勞動部長，不要到了部會就耍官威，你的上任並不是因為你天資聰穎，並不是因為你深得信任，而是因為一個公務員的離開，逼迫你要去做救火隊，但是救火隊還沒做成，我們已經看到在做血汗工廠，要同仁六、日來加班，甚至講說只要來1.5小時就好了，剩下的時間你都可以離開，這不就是真真正正的慣老闆言辭跟慣老闆嘴臉嗎？我們民間很多的慣老闆不也是講，你假日的時候只要到個班、接接電話、倒倒茶水，或是你只要來幾個小時，但重點是通勤的時間以及上、下班的時間，還有六、日休息、照顧家人的時間，這些怎麼算？看到勞動部在昨天改口，就代表說你也知道這樣的狀況其實是不對的，其實是不允許的，其實是違反勞基、勞動相關法令的。","更重要的，最後我們必須要說，把就業安定基金用來舉辦個人演唱會，有沒有用在就業安定基金當初設定名義的使用用途上面？昨天在財政委員會審計長還要出來幫忙圓謊說這叫政令宣導，我們就說演唱會跟政令宣導真的有那麼直接的關係嗎？也因此挪用公款必須嚴加究責，而防霸凌絕對不能打假球，這是我們給民進黨政府最後的忠告。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言。","接下來請登記第6號麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張嘉郡","許宇甄","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","葉元之","羅智強","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"11310201_00007"}}},{"id":"157664","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157664","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70633660b6e119e6b31953f20b0db47dadbc7be04044c27fbc32472786d5621fa9625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:10:43 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二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T09:07:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T09:10:39+08:00","duration":185,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.34596875,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.66784375,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.15659375000001,"end":173.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.94409375,"end":182.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.61846875,"end":184.23846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.366,"end":35.714,"text":"委員長、各位同事、大家早安今天我想要談高等教育免學費教育是國家最長遠的投資也是每個人改變命運的起點對於年輕世代而言教育是開啟未來的鑰匙對於國家而言教育更是培育人才的根基而教育中的高教體系不但是培養國家專業人才的重要階段"},{"start":36.354,"end":36.734,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":55.148,"end":77.882,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":84.906,"end":89.791,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":110.23,"end":135.537,"text":"讓無數的學生和家庭背負沉重的負擔面對少子化的時代也是我們推動這個改革的契機更重要的是降低高教的經濟門檻能減輕學生和家庭的負擔現在能有許多家庭因為學費壓力孩子的夢想只能停在起跑點甚至不得不提前放棄學業這樣的情況對於學生對於國家"},{"start":139.278,"end":167.376,"text":"都是一種損失我們希望讓每一位學子都能專注在學習與創新而不是被財務問題所困擾投資教育是點燃希望降低門檻才能成就未來教育能夠創造最美好的願景而增加高教育預算減少學生負擔則是讓這份願景落實的最關鍵的一步讓我們期許國家因更多元的人才而更強大"},{"start":168.257,"end":173.644,"text":"投資教育紮根未來公平機會讓夢盛開謝謝謝謝張家俊委員的發言接下來請登記第4號徐宇珍委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":15,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時7分）院長、各位同事，大家早安。今天我想要談高等教育免學費，教育是國家最長遠的投資，也是每個人改變命運的起點，對於年輕世代而言，教育是開啟未來的鑰匙，對於國家而言，教育更是培育人才的根基，而教育中的高教體系，不但是培養國家專業人才的重要階段，更是對社會階級的流動有著根本的影響，可以說是在各個教育階段中，扮演著重中之重的角色。","放眼世界，已經有許多國家著手投資高等教育，讓高等教育更加地普及化，包括德國，包括挪威、阿根廷，都以免費的高等教育政策確保每位學生都有平等大學受教的機會，瑞典和丹麥不僅免學費，甚至還提供生活津貼，減輕學生的生活壓力，紐西蘭也逐漸實施中，甚至連北韓也提供其國民免費的大學教育，因為這些國家知道當學費不再是阻力，每個人都能夠更加專注地追求自己的目標，這些國家的作法也告訴我們，教育公平不僅能讓學生受惠，更能提升整個國家的競爭力。","而在臺灣，高教工會曾統計，我們的大學學費高居全球第14名，讓無數的學生和家庭背負沉重的負擔，面對少子化的時代，也是我們推動這個改革的契機，更重要的是降低高教的經濟門檻能減輕學生和家庭的負擔，現在仍有許多家庭因為學費壓力，孩子的夢想只能停在起跑點，甚至不得不提前放棄學業，這樣的情況對於學生、對於國家都是一種損失，我們希望讓每一位學子都能專注在學習與創新，而不是被財務問題所困擾，投資教育是點燃希望，降低門檻才能成就未來，教育能夠創造最美好的願景，而增加高教預算、減少學生負擔，則是讓這份願景落實最關鍵的一步，讓我們期許國家因更多元的人才而更強大，投資教育扎根未來，公平機會讓夢盛開，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員的發言。","接下來請登記第4號許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張嘉郡","許宇甄","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","葉元之","羅智強","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"11310201_00007"}}},{"id":"157662","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70639282f563c488fb3d53f20b0db47dadbc7be04044c27fbc32fc99ef46c3be2bc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:04:13 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二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T09:00:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T09:04:07+08:00","duration":206,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.85284375,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.84346875,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.77909375,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.190968750000003,"end":70.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.93971875,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.10846875000001,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.18846875,"end":195.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.82284375,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.13034375,"end":204.92721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.085,"end":18.813,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具"},{"start":29.369,"end":54.967,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在座的媒體朋友大家好近來本席提出了憲法法庭大法官審判制度的改革法案要求明定大法官最低的出席人數和提高同意門檻才能夠做成憲法判決沒想到卻引來了特定媒體的不斷的抨擊以及抵制在此本席認為有必要再重新說明"},{"start":55.627,"end":69.742,"text":"現行制度的弊端希望大家能夠冷靜的思考什麼樣的制度才是最有助於台灣的民主法制的發展什麼樣的制度才是最有助於國家憲法訴訟制度的運行"},{"start":71.227,"end":100.319,"text":"現行大法官的審理制度並不嚴謹我們憲法明文規定大法官應該要有15位憲法法庭理應是滿額運作但是當大多數人出缺僅剩下少數留任的時候現行的規定竟然僅容許少數的兩三位或四五位的大法官就可以作出裁判並且藉此靠的釋憲案就可以推翻多數民意所通過的法律這樣的制度公平嗎?合理嗎?"},{"start":101.119,"end":103.06,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":126.027,"end":130.048,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":144.253,"end":152.759,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案："},{"start":169.85,"end":187.037,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":198.305,"end":204.139,"text":"好謝謝翁曉琳委員的發言接下來請登記第二號林倩琪委員請發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（9時1分）主席、各位委員，還有在座的媒體朋友，大家好。近來本席提出了憲法法庭大法官審判制度的改革法案，要求明定大法官最低的出席人數和提高同意門檻才能夠做成憲法判決，沒想到卻引來了特定媒體的不斷抨擊以及抵制，在此本席認為有必要再重新說明現行制度的弊端，希望大家能夠冷靜地思考什麼樣的制度才是最有助於臺灣民主法治的發展，什麼樣的制度才是最有助於國家憲法訴訟制度的運行。現行大法官的審理制度並不嚴謹，我們憲法明文規定，大法官應該要有15位，憲法法庭理應是滿額運作，但是當大多數人出缺，僅剩下少數留任的時候，現行的規定竟然容許少數的2、3位或4、5位的大法官就可以做出裁判，並且藉此靠著釋憲案就可以推翻多數民意所通過的法律，這樣的制度公平嗎？合理嗎？","我們知道一個釋憲判決，它可以決定國家的前途、社會秩序和你我的命運，譬如說大法官可以透過釋憲決定臺灣不需要死刑、政府官員說謊不需要處罰、地方政府不能夠為了國人的安全健康而訂定更嚴格的萊豬標準、國家可以任意地去扣減人民的退休金等等，這些釋憲判決都影響了我們的生活、影響了我們國家的社會秩序。我們知道世界上其他的民主國家，例如韓國、法國、日本、捷克等等，都對於參與大法官的審理定出最低的人數門檻和做成憲法判決同意門檻，這些都是有相當制度、很重要的一些要求。有人質疑說明定大法官的出席人數提高、做成門檻，會不會造成憲法法庭的癱瘓，在這邊清楚地告訴大家：不會，因為憲法法庭如果會癱瘓，人數不足就應該要儘速地補齊員額，而不是任由賴總統不提名適合的人員。","我們要講的就是司法改革是全面的，憲法訴訟、憲法法庭大法官的改革亦不例外，在此呼籲民進黨政府不要倒果為因、混淆是非，也請各位能夠支持要共同建立一個嚴謹、專業、多元的憲法法庭，謝謝大家。"],["主席：好，謝謝翁曉玲委員的發言。","接下來請登記第2號林倩綺委員，請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","翁曉玲","林倩綺","張嘉郡","許宇甄","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","葉元之","羅智強","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":119,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"11310201_00007"}}},{"id":"157725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/28156fb6ec38ead3141f6f4e92a5d90453f20b0db47dadbc37c8158ac6d69434b057e84e5f10c5cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:30:58 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輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":59.232,"end":84,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具我從進到立法院我就一直提案我希望能夠打破這個歷史上錯誤歧視的分類方法現在在我的手上就有一份憲法增修條文第四條第一項第二款的修憲草案我一直沒有改變過這個立場"},{"start":86.806,"end":93.951,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":97.349,"end":120.673,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":128.438,"end":147.471,"text":"我還是要不斷呼籲山源平原實實在在是破壞原住民的團結我們不應該透過我們原民會的組織法來去加深這樣的一個框架"},{"start":148.683,"end":163.164,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具我希望這樣一個破壞原住民團結的條文我希望大家千萬不要按同意我在這裡誠懇地呼籲大家拜託"},{"start":164.639,"end":180.104,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":198.735,"end":201.87,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員下一位請吳思堯委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時12分）各位親愛的立院同仁，我作為一個原住民，我是一個魯凱族，但是我們有分山原、平原，16個族群當中，都有被分類為山原、平原，當我們的父母是山原、平原，在生下孩子後會開始煩惱，到底我的孩子要登記為山原還是平原？山原、平原本來就是錯誤的歷史殖民分類，應該要在憲法中取消，但是因為修憲的門檻太高、太困難，難以達成，所以我們只能夠一直延續這個錯誤的分類，但是從進到立法院，我就一直提案，希望能夠打破這個歷史上錯誤、歧視的分類方法，現在在我的手上就有一份憲法增修條文第四條第一項第二款的修憲草案，我一直沒有改變過這個立場，等一下我走下去，我希望每一位立委同仁都能夠幫我簽上去，因為從剛才的發言，我聽到大家都認為山原、平原就是歷史上一個不當的殖民分類，我等一下走下去，希望大家可以支持這個憲法增修條文，讓我們創造歷史，打破中華民國憲法山原、平原不當的分類！在這裡我還是要不斷地呼籲，山原、平原實實在在是在破壞原住民團結，所以我們不應該透過原民會組織法去加深這樣的框架！這樣一個破壞原住民團結的條文，我希望大家千萬不要按同意！我在這裡誠懇地呼籲大家，拜託！我要為各位唱一首，當我們族人有什麼事情要去討伐的時候，我不忍心用出草兩個字，但是我必須要在這個地方、用這樣的聲音來代表我的族人。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員。下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 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ta kwara（大家好）。大家還記得嗎？禁伐補償要增加3萬塊的時候，是誰在欺負原住民？是誰在對抗卓院長？伍麗華委員、陳瑩委員你們在哪裡？你們有跟族人站在一起嗎？今天族人的聲音，我們都聽到了，11月7號當卓院長簽下禁伐補償用公務預算能夠補償6萬塊的時候，那個才是歷史性的一刻，不是今天。今天我們要談的是原民會作為原住民的中央主管機關，它的組織制度，它要用人唯才，並且更要注重專業性，還有它的文化敏感度，尤其是反映各族心聲的族群委員。然而，我們現行族群委員的制度施行多年了，仍然有非常多的問題，今天族人也請我在這裡告訴大家。","第一個，推薦跟審查的程序沒有法制化，開放推薦的時間點非常的模糊，導致多數的族人不清楚推薦機制的存在，也使其成為少數人進行酬庸的工具，根本就沒有辦法反映各個族群的心聲。第二個，族群委員的資格條件是失衡的。我們看一下，114年度族群委員的人事費高達了2,247.6萬元，平均每一個族群委員的月薪是11.7萬，而任用的資格僅僅具備原住民的身分就可以了，但是法定工作是專業的，我們需要非常專業的審查原民會的法規，先期審查原住民的政策、制度及計畫，這幾種重要的審查，因為缺乏了專業的能力，所以也無法依照規定的職權有所作為。","我們相對來看一下原民會的專門委員，他們必須經過高考及格，並且要有10年以上的資歷，才可以被拔擢成為專門委員，他們的薪資多少？才將近8萬塊；相反的，月薪高達11.7萬的族群委員卻只出席婚喪喜慶等等的活動，這對於認真的原住民公務人員、對於部落認真打拚的族人是相對的剝奪感。謝謝大家。"],["主席：好，謝謝高金委員。","下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 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正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案�"},{"start":168.956,"end":194.133,"text":"因為我們16族非單一族群不像客家人、不像客委會這樣子的設計為文化、為服務、為原住民的心聲所以這樣的設計是顧及族群的差異那麼或許在這幾年執行的過程當中"},{"start":196.482,"end":210.245,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人分別擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：本院教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":190,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時59分）主席、各位同仁。此次的修法，現在有什麼好討論的呢？結論就是順高金者昌、逆高金者亡，不是嗎？國民黨和民眾黨都被高金牽著鼻子走，鄭天財委員也在一旁，躲在後面下指導棋，黃國昌委員變成了小弟、變成了打手，根本不了解原住民實際的狀況，就拿著不完整、不精確的資料，把所有這一次的族群委員全部棒打了一頓，聯合一起干預行政權，一起霸凌、污辱我們原住民的族群委員，也霸凌我、霸凌伍麗華委員。這一次賽夏族民族議會推薦平地原住民的族群委員人選，請伍麗華轉交，也算伍麗華委員的人馬。我們卑南族透過民族議會，很有智慧，也非常嚴謹的從各個部落，每一個部落推薦一位人選之後，再經過篩選，部落也制訂了年齡的上限，這麼嚴謹的方式所產生的人選，也要在這一次修法當中無辜受到波及，所以我今天銜命把部落長輩要告訴所有在座大立委的話帶來了，他們錄好了，拜託我今天一定要在大院放出來。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員瑩：族群委員的設計，因為我們16族非單一族群，不像客家人，不像客委會，這樣子的設計，為文化、為服務、為原住民的心聲，所以這樣的設計是顧及族群的差異，那麼或許在這幾年執行的過程當中產生或者監督的機制，我們可以檢討，但是絕對不是用這種粗暴的方式修法，就否定所有的族群委員，砍掉他們所有的薪水。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。","接下來我們請高金素梅委員發言，麥玉珍委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"11310201_00004"}}},{"id":"157696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b70630f520ecba802661053f20b0db47dadbcaa176a6e8d24ed957def63981a27d4805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"12:56:00 - 12:58:32","影片長度":"00:02:32","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T12:56:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T12:58:32+08:00","duration":152,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.40221875,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.49471875,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":63.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.70034375,"end":80.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.01409375,"end":81.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.23409375,"end":148.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.47159375,"end":153.23909375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.678,"end":24.439,"text":"主席、各位同仁,針對原住民委員會組織法第3、第4、第7此次的修法在我們內政委員會也是爭議不休很遺憾今天到了大會來做表決那此次的修法原住民的主委以及我們山地跟平地輪流來擔任以及我們原住民委員會"},{"start":25.52,"end":49.995,"text":"改為五級指針對這兩點本席認為,原住民主委應該是為人用才由行政院長綜合考量族群的差異因素擇優任用才有利於原住民而不是強制要求輪流擔任主委是政務官沒有任期的保障若要輪流的話定義未合"},{"start":50.655,"end":54.418,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":81.095,"end":107.398,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳"},{"start":107.958,"end":128.533,"text":"委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳"},{"start":131.355,"end":134.257,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（12時56分）主席、各位同仁。針對原住民族委員會組織法第三條、第四條、第七條，此次的修法在我們內政委員會也是爭議不休，很遺憾今天到了大會來做表決。此次的修法將原民會的主委改由山地跟平地輪流來擔任，以及原民會委員也改為無給職，針對這兩點，本席認為原民會主委應該是用人唯才，由行政院長綜合考量族群的差異因素，擇優任用才是有利於原住民，而不是強制要求輪流擔任。主委是政務官，沒有任期的保障，若用輪流的話，定義為何？且固定輪流的制度，恐怕會加劇山地及平地之間的競爭，這樣的修法能夠真正反映整個原住民族的需求嗎？首長的任用應該是考慮其能否全面了解各族原住民的特性，並且願意照顧原住民，不應該用立法權來壓縮人事權的任命，限制於山地與平地原住民。","再來，針對有關委員無給職的部分，本席認為要慎重考慮，這些原住民族群委員他肩負的責任重大，不可能是無給職又要求他們盡心盡力，若是認為遴選機制有問題，大家可以討論遴選機制的產生，而不是直接將聘用委員通通改成無給職，這樣是懲罰為原住民事務付出的委員。聘用委員是真正能反映我們族人的需求，參與案件的審查、事務的聯繫、出席會議及參與活動等工作需要全心的投入，若改為無給職，對所有用心付出的委員來說，是非常地不公平。所以針對這兩項修法，本席也要求我們所有立法同仁能審慎考慮，本席在這邊也堅持反對的立場，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員的發言。","接下來請陳瑩委員發言，高金素梅委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"11310201_00004"}}},{"id":"157695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063d9f13c7ce4139b9453f20b0db47dadbcaa176a6e8d24ed95717bebaba1fc21885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:52:25 - 12:55:53","影片長度":"00:03:28","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 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是殖民的史觀，而它不僅僅是殖民的史觀，現在我們的論述甚至大部分都是中國的史觀，都是中國智庫所生產他們對內少數民族的論述，我們很多時候在臺灣都會看到，很多時候中國對於少數民族經常把它標籤化，只用淺層的能歌善舞、運動、文化標記等等接受幫助，用這樣的一個包裝去討論他們少數民族的重要性。但我萬萬沒有想到，在過了那麼多年以後，在臺灣，我們對於原住民族的論述也常常停留在如此淺層的地方。","因此說認真的，我們一直在強調轉型正義的同時，對於原住民的轉型正義，確實落實的遠遠不夠，不管是土地的轉型正義、語言的轉型正義、財源的轉型正義、英雄的、信仰的，各式各樣的轉型正義沒有被落實。而這個會期，我們已經開始討論這些轉型正義，這個轉型正義就排在今天的第十四案，但如此荒謬的修法卻把它提到前面，結果剛剛在延長會議時間的時候，就直接把第十四案排除了。在座的原住民立委，如果藍、白的原住民立委根本不在意原住民權益的話，就不應該做這樣的事情。如果你真正在意原住民的話，你應該來討論現在在殖民史觀下我們的轉型正義完全沒有被落實的情況之下，我們應該要怎麼做？繼續使用過往的語言，不管是山原、平原這種荒謬的分類方式都絕對不是解決問題的作法。","所以在這邊我還是要再度地強調，如果真的有心的話，我們應該共同來修憲，由憲法的層次真正落實原住民族的轉型正義，而不是用這種像之前補償的方式，又或者只是名字的方式，又或者只是文化表徵的方式，這完全不是一個負責任的態度，也不是立法院應該做的事，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員的發言。","接下來請吳琪銘委員發言，陳瑩委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 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謝謝黃婕委員的發言接下來請沈伯陽委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":175,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時49分）在座各位同事，大家午安。今天原住民委員會組織法其實已經多次在委員會跟協調會都討論過了，但是一直都沒有達成共識，為什麼？就是因為這一次的修法實在是毫無邏輯，這個修法目的更讓人難以理解！在這次修法裡面，要求原住民的主委要由山地原住民跟平地原住民來輪流擔任。過去有多位的原住民委員，包括提案的委員在內，都曾經站在這個質詢臺上面說，山地跟平地原住民的區分是殖民者強加在原住民身上非常不合理的區分，而這樣的區分過去在所有的理論上也缺乏科學依據，更沒有民族學理論上面的支持。對於原住民而言，有意義的是族別、是部落，而不是山地跟平地的區分，這個標籤加上去，只是讓原住民族自我殖民、自我標籤，甚至是自我閹割。","這次的修法，大家都認為是在走回頭路，如果要讓原住民的主委由山地跟平地來輪流擔任，就是大大的退步，這種過時的劃分方式，應該要去打破，如同剛剛張宏陸委員提的，我們可以去打破、我們可以去廢除山地跟平地的區分，而不是在這裡走回頭路，把自己綁進這個框架，自我枷鎖，甚至是讓這個毫無邏輯的依據變成原住民主委的任命。如果真的要公平，那是不是我們讓16族的原住民族來輪流擔任呢？照這個邏輯，如果套用在其他部會身上，就可以看得出來，這一次的修法是多麼地沒有邏輯了。","最後，我還是要提醒一下，行政院長對於各部會的部會首長的人事決定權是非常重要的，這個是非常明確而且清楚的憲政原則，行政一體，如果行政院長想要落實自己的政策願景，就要能夠親自決定部會首長是誰，這個是憲法第五十六條明確賦予院長的權力，也是責任政治落實的必要條件。在行政一體的原則之下，行政院長可以自己選擇誰要來擔任部會首長，並給予充分的尊重，這個也是釋字第613號解釋不斷強調的重點。","所以請在座的所有立法委員記得，在憲法面前，立委沒有比較大，請立法委員遵守自己應盡的憲法忠誠義務，而不是去剝奪其他憲政機關賦予的權力。藍、白過去已經被憲法法庭判過違憲一次，現在難道還要不斷地去試探憲法的底線嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的發言。","接下來請沈伯洋委員發言，吳琪銘委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 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委會主委要由海陸、要由四縣、要由大埔輪流做你覺得這個會增加客家人的團結嗎?所以..."},{"start":209.048,"end":210.551,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（12時45分）各位同仁。就在前幾天，臺灣的十二強棒球賽為所有臺灣人民帶來非常強大的光榮感以及團結感，大家也都知道，在這次十二強棒球賽裡面有13位原住民是這次的國手，代表我們為臺灣人帶來這麼光榮的感覺。但是有人在問說，這13位原住民有幾個平地原住民、有幾個山地原住民嗎？","剛剛很多委員都有講，平地原住民跟山地原住民就是1945年國民黨來臺灣的時候，延續日本的殖民統治手法，甚至是當年清朝生番、熟番的區分方式，這樣子延續下來的一個政策；但是在我們1991年的修憲，在修憲的過程中沒有辦法，那時候修憲還是把平地原住民、山地原住民的選舉方式納入了憲法；之後依照這個憲法有一個原住民身分法。","各位，原住民身分法裡面如何規定我們山地原住民、平地原住民怎麼區分？剛剛李柏毅委員講說，是從臺灣光復那個時候算起。錯！這個原住民身分法裡面是規定臺灣光復前設籍於山地行政區的就是山地原住民；臺灣光復前設籍於平地行政區的就是平地原住民。各位，80年前你的阿公、你的阿祖到底是設籍在哪裡，決定了你今天投票投給誰、決定你今天是平地原住民還是山地原住民！","正是因為這樣子規定的荒謬跟不具備合理性，因此從以前到現在，在立法過程裡面，我們這些立法委員大家都很理性，法律也很謙抑、很謙虛，因此，在其他所有的原住民政策、相關法律裡面一律沒有去區分平地原住民、山地原住民，所有平地原住民、山地原住民在法律上面的權利基本上都是一樣的，只有在憲法裡面規定的投票才有區分平地原住民跟山地原住民。","結果今天國民黨提案，在大家都認為這個分類不合理之下，法律盡量不要去區分平地原住民跟山地原住民，結果國民黨提一個案說，我們不但要分，而且還要輪流做！已經多少年沒有這種平地原住民、山地原住民的立法了，居然是由我們國民黨的原住民委員所提出來的，真是荒天下之大謬！如果我們今天說客委會主委要由海陸、要由四縣、要由大埔輪流做，你覺得這個會增加客家人的團結嗎？","所以在這裡要拜託各位同仁，在沒有任期制的情況之下，這樣子的輪流制是沒有意義的，一個當5天、一個當4年、360天，沒有辦法達到你們想要的公平立法目的，以上。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員的發言。","接下來請黃捷委員發言，沈伯洋委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 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«學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":49.668,"end":68.062,"text":"特別去區隔山地或是平地的原住民而在當年的歷史背景下屬地主義所劃分出的山地和平地原住民在現行的原住民法第八條的規定當中也可能因為結婚或是父母有不同的身份"},{"start":69.178,"end":81.572,"text":"而依照個人的意願可以做變更所以對於每一個人選適不適合擔任原民會的主委我想最重要的應該還是在他所擁有的專業性"},{"start":83.752,"end":100.733,"text":"以及他的能力適不適格、能不能兼顧所有族群所關心的事務如果要強調不同的身分別來輪流擔任或許反倒會忽略人選本身的條件而憲法第56條也明文規定"},{"start":101.994,"end":120.237,"text":"行政院各部會首長是由我們行政院長提請總統任命之若加諸這樣的立法限制恐怕更是限縮了行政權任命的人事彈性不但有違行政一體的原則也不符合責任政治的運作"},{"start":121.258,"end":136.218,"text":"至於是否要將原民會的族群委員會改為無極職我想從過去不管是在委員會或是在協調會當中的這個討論似乎更有是針對個案是否"},{"start":137.193,"end":139.154,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":154.081,"end":182.657,"text":"將中央的政策帶回地方並且把地方的需求反映給中央這是一份正常上下班的全職工作所以我認為維持有幾職更能充分維持族群委員服務的這個量能所以在此也希望我們各位委員能夠甚至讓我們所修法完成的原住民委員會組織法可以更完善更貼切的符合原住民每一個族群的期待"},{"start":186.538,"end":189.648,"text":"謝謝陳俊宇委員的發言接下來請沈發貴委員發言黃婕委員請準備"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時41分）主席、各位同仁。有關本次原住民族委員會組織法修法，對於未來原民會的運作和業務的推動可能會有很大的影響，其中第三條是對於原民會主委的任命資格加以限制，規定必須由山地和平地原住民輪流擔任。對於原住民族自治的精神，我們完全支持，但我想從我自己生活的經驗來分享，因為我所認識的許多原住民朋友都以自身所代表的族群文化為傲，並不再特別去區隔山地或是平地的原住民，而在當年的歷史背景下，即以屬地主義所劃分出山地和平地原住民，依現行原住民身分法第八條的規定，也可能因為結婚或是父母有不同的身分，依照個人的意願可以做變更。所以對於每一個人選適不適合擔任原民會主委，我想最重要的應該還是他所擁有的專業性以及他的能力適不適格，能不能兼顧所有族群所關心的事務，如果要強調不同的身分別來輪流擔任，或許反倒會忽略人選本身的條件。而憲法第五十六條也明文規定，行政院各部會首長是由行政院長提請總統任命之，若加諸這樣的立法限制，恐怕更是限縮了行政權任命的人事彈性，不但有違行政一體原則，也不符合責任政治的運作。","至於是否要將原民會的族群委員會改為無給職，我想過去不管是在委員會或是在協調會中的討論，似乎更是針對個案是否定調這個族群委員會的重要性，但以我所了解的族群委員會的職責，其實是需要時常往返辦公室與各鄉鎮之間，包括許多偏遠地區及部落，作為溝通的橋梁，將中央的政策帶回地方，並且把地方的需求反映給中央，這是一份正常上下班的全職工作，所以我認為維持有給職更能充分維持族群委員服務的量能。所以在此也希望各位委員能夠慎思，讓我們所修法完成的原住民族委員會組織法可以更完善、更貼切地符合原住民每一個族群的期待。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員的發言。","接下來請沈發惠委員發言，黃捷委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 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12:31:31","影片長度":"00:03:10","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T12:28:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T12:31:31+08:00","duration":190,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.430343750000002,"end":171.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.26159375,"end":181.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.85909375,"end":188.35596875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.609,"end":19.515,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":21.536,"end":43.343,"text":"都告訴了我們權力之相互制衡有其界限除了不能抵觸憲法之規定更不能侵犯各個憲法機關的權力核心領域或者對於其他憲法機關權力之行使來造成實質妨害導致責任政治崩壞"},{"start":45.104,"end":59.001,"text":"這都是告訴我們立委要恪遵憲法切莫用修法的方式來介入行政權的人事任命權這一次原住民族組織法的修法重點兩項"},{"start":60.643,"end":89.456,"text":"不管是修法強制要求原住民族的主委要山地、平地來輪流擔任或是現有16位的族群委員由有己職改為無己職這些都是用修法的方式剝奪了憲法賦予行政權的人事任命權限甚至也大大的強害了現有的政務人員信賴保護的原則"},{"start":90.496,"end":114.499,"text":"所以事法性大有問題,合理性當然也應當來審酌我想這樣將山地平地原住民這種殖民時期遺留下來的這種要打破的刻板框架都應當落實在現在立法院的修法思維當中只是非常可惜在野黨委員的提案"},{"start":115.18,"end":115.66,"text":"委員黃秀芳等18人擬具"},{"start":136.937,"end":162.316,"text":"不要分族群這是現在進步的趨勢至於族群委員有幾職的制度數十年來不論誰執政都是如此不要因為現在執政的是民進黨由民進黨任命的主委臨聘而來的族群委員就冠上了綠有有或是酬庸"},{"start":162.876,"end":187.93,"text":"甚至倒比一揮把他們服務人民的薪資都砍光這對於信賴保護原則存在嗎?未來如果提起訴訟請問這種責任立法院負得起嗎?民進黨反對這次的修法謝謝謝謝吳思瑤委員發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言李柏毅委員請準備"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":141,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時28分）主席、各位同仁。立委再大也要恪遵憲法，但非常遺憾，這一屆的立法院卻是最多違憲修法的一屆。人事任命權就是行政權的核心領域，歷次的大法官解釋從釋字第613號、第585號到第391號，都告訴了我們，權力之相互制衡有其界限，除了不能牴觸憲法之規定，更不能侵犯各個憲法機關的權力核心領域，或者對於其他憲法機關權力之行使造成實質妨害，導致責任政治崩壞，這都是告訴我們，立委要恪遵憲法，切莫用修法的方式來介入行政權的人事任命權。","這一次原住民族組織法的修法重點有兩項，不管是修法強制要求原住民族的主委要山地、平地來輪流擔任，或是現有16位族群委員由有給職改為無給職，這些都是用修法的方式剝奪了憲法賦予行政權的人事任命權限，甚至也大大地戕害了現有政務人員信賴保護的原則，所以適法性大有問題，合理性當然也應當來審酌。","我想這樣將山地、平地原住民這種殖民時期遺留下來的要打破的刻板框架，都應當落實在現在立法院的修法思維當中。只是非常可惜，在野黨委員的提案強制地要求輪流讓山地、平地原住民出任，在法律用語上，輪流到底是什麼樣子的機制？在協商的過程，在野委員都沒有辦法清楚來說明，所以用人唯才，不要分你、我、他，不要分族群，這是現在進步的趨勢。","至於族群委員有給職的制度，數十年來不論誰執政都是如此，不要因為現在執政的是民進黨，由民進黨任命的主委遴聘而來的族群委員就灌上了綠友友或是酬庸，甚至大筆一揮，把他們服務人民的薪資都砍光，這對於信賴保護原則存在嗎？未來如果提起訴訟，請問這種責任，立法院負得起嗎？民進黨反對這次的修法，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員發言。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言，李柏毅委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"11310201_00004"}}},{"id":"157687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/884fcb4bd77b7063795a07e5ebcd272553f20b0db47dadbcaa176a6e8d24ed950f546765d3498e985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"12:24:50 - 12:28:07","影片長度":"00:03:17","會議時間":"2024-11-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人、委員林宜瑾等22人、委員張雅琳等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員吳沛憶等16人、委員王育敏等20人、委員萬美玲等19人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」、委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」、委員莊瑞雄等16人、委員陳菁徽等20人分別擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」、委員林月琴等19人、委員萬美玲等17人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」、委員林俊憲等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」、委員羅廷瑋等19人及委員廖偉翔等16人分別擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；行政院函請審議「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；本院委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員蔡易餘等23人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林思銘等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案等14案。 二、11月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-29","start_time":"2024-11-29T12:24:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-29T12:28:07+08:00","duration":197,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第11次會議","id":"院會-11-2-11","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.923468750000001,"end":28.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.195343750000003,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.70721875,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.00784375,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.69346875000001,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.25971875,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.52034375000001,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.43659375000001,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.46971875,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.26159375,"end":162.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.00971875000002,"end":184.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.44096875000002,"end":193.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.19034375,"end":197.97471875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.95,"end":27.567,"text":"主席、各位同仁山地原住民和平地原住民是殖民者強加在原住民身上的不合理區分對原住民來說有意義的是族別、是部落而不是山地或平地原住民"},{"start":28.348,"end":45.733,"text":"同一族群有可能因為在日治時期涉及在山地鄉被認為為山地原住民涉及在平地鄉就被認為是平地原住民朝野應該共同修憲打破這樣的區分而不是修組織法來強化山地平地的劃分"},{"start":46.773,"end":59.597,"text":"原民會主委應該用人為財任用好人才能推行好政策才有利於原住民而不是強制要求山人、平人輪流擔任輪流的定義是什麼?如何輪流?內閣總辭後一定要換人即使院長留任內閣小該組也要換人嗎?"},{"start":67.179,"end":79.069,"text":"主委是政務人員沒有任期保障可能今天平原主委當三天就請辭下台下一個山原主委當五年這樣的輪流有公平嗎?有意義嗎?"},{"start":80.748,"end":100.855,"text":"族群委員聘用制是自原民會成立以來就有的制度並且從9族逐漸擴增到16族族群委員服務對象範圍遍及全國原住民16族之間語言、文化不同族群委員依法令執行公務是原民會和各族之間的橋樑"},{"start":102.415,"end":130.23,"text":"無己職的客家委員僅是諮詢性質任務不同、族群特性也不同取消山地原住民和平地原住民之別是原住民族的期待也是社會進步必然的趨勢因為山原和平原之間是百年前殖民者為統治歷變的區分民主不是統治應該是回歸到原住民族應該原有的樣貌這才是自然"},{"start":131.519,"end":142.946,"text":"取消山地原住民和平地原住民之分是我們追求的我們在經濟、社會、文化狀況也與當年大不同不應該走回頭路"},{"start":144.572,"end":162.238,"text":"並且原住民身份別並非一成不變依照原住民身份法第八條身份別可因結婚或父母不同身份而依個人意願變更一位阿美族爸爸和泰雅族媽媽生下的孩子他可以是山地原住民也可以是平地原住民"},{"start":163.158,"end":183.176,"text":"身份應該是自我認同的展現但現在的提案卻把不合時宜的制度套在現今讓身份成為族人的枷鎖選擇服務族人的最適合、最適當人選之前不是考慮能力而是考慮身份是否符合這豈不是相當荒謬嗎"},{"start":184.497,"end":192.846,"text":"所以我在這案委員會時審查就一再強調立法委員應該是要守護原住民的優秀人才才是真正捍衛族人權益"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":135,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（12時25分）主席、各位同仁。山地原住民和平地原住民是殖民者強加在原住民身上的不合理區分，對原住民來說，有意義的是族別、是部落，而不是山地或平地原住民。同一族群有可能因為在日治時期設籍在山地鄉，被認為為山地原住民，設籍在平地鄉就被認為是平地原住民。朝野應該共同修憲，打破這樣的區分，而不是修組織法來強化山地、平地的劃分。","原民會主委應該用人唯才，任用好人才能推行好的政策，才有利於原住民，而不是強制要求山原、平原輪流擔任。輪流的定義是什麼？如何輪流？內閣總辭後一定要換人，即使院長留任，內閣小改組也要換人嗎？主委是政務人員，沒有任期保障，可能今天平原主委當3天就請辭下臺，下一個山原主委當5年，這樣的輪流有公平嗎？有意義嗎？","族群委員聘用制是自原民會成立以來就有的制度，並且從9族逐漸擴增到16族，族群委員服務對象範圍遍及全國原住民，16族之間語言、文化不同，族群委員依法令執行公務，是原民會和各族之間的橋梁。無給職的客家委員僅是諮詢性質，任務不同，族群特性也不同，取消山地原住民和平地原住民之別是原住民族的期待，也是社會進步必然的趨勢，因為山原和平原之間是百年前殖民者為統治便利的區分。民主不是統治，應該是回歸到原住民族原有的樣貌，這才是自然。","取消山地原住民和平地原住民之分是我們追求的，現在經濟、社會、文化狀況也與當年大不同，不應該走回頭路。況且原住民身分別並非一成不變，依照原住民身分法第八條，身分別可因結婚或父母不同身分，而依個人意願變更，一位阿美族爸爸和泰雅族媽媽生下的孩子，他可以是山地原住民，也可以是平地原住民。身分應該是自我認同的展現，現在的提案卻把不合時宜的制度套在現今，讓身分成為族人的枷鎖。選擇服務族人的最適合、最適當人選之前，不是考慮能力，而是考慮身分是否符合，這豈不是相當荒謬嗎？所以我在這案委員會審查時就一再強調，立法委員應該是要守護原住民的優秀人才，才是真正捍衛族人權益。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員發言。","接下來請吳思瑤委員發言。鍾佳濱委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 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Tahovecahe委員：（12時21分）謝謝主席。請大家記住今天的日子──2024年11月29日，我們原住民選出來的立法委員：鄭天財、高金素梅、盧縣一、黃仁、林倩綺，他們提出了自我閹割、自我矮化、自我歧視、自我殖民的修法版本。原住民族權利運動有多少的前人走在街頭，今天他們沒有機會成為立法委員，我們何德何能能夠成為立法委員站在這裡，他們爭取權益，我們卻在這裡擅自的、任意的、便宜的修法，濫用民主制度的人數優勢，我們在這邊自私的刪除原住民族的權益。","今天我也想引用馬丁·尼莫拉牧師的話：當他們抓猶太人的時候，我沉默，因為我不是猶太人，最後他們抓走我的時候，沒有人站出來幫我說話。各位親愛的原住民族人、各位親愛的不分黨派的立院同仁，如果我們今天不站出來說話，下一個被閹割的權利又會是什麼？","他們說，修改組織法第三條，主委由山原、平原輪流當。各位知道嗎？清朝人來了，把我們原住民分類成生番、熟番；日本人來了，把我們原住民分類成高砂族、平埔族；國民政府來了，把我們原住民分類成山胞、平胞。中華民國是一個民主憲政的國家，我們卻看到山原、平原這樣的字樣。修法很難，但是我們立委應該要在其他的法律去實質的破除，我們卻看到原住民立委在原民會組織法去加劇山原、平原這樣的框架。","他們說，組織法第四條要把16個族群委員改為無給職，區區的兩千多萬，這個預算科目被刪除，並不是如他們所說的，這筆錢沒有就沒有了，不能挪作他用，也不是他們所說的，可以改聘為公務員。但是各位知道嗎？我們有740個部落，有五百多個文健站，有原家中心、語推組織等等，然而今天刪除的這16個人，他們減損了原民會9%的人力，卻大大滅損了我們的人力跟行政效能，我們在喊原住民工作權保障，他們卻消滅了這16個人，今天傷害的是16個原住民的主體性跟尊嚴。我要說：culisi！很多，我們要來抗爭，要來發聲，謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的發言。","接下來請登記第2位蘇巧慧委員發言，吳思瑤委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-11","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","張智倫"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2024-11-29"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00002","11310201_00003","11310201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"貨物稅條例修正第十二條條文─ 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