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朝委不好意思這個沒有什麼好承認我是覺得要讓他進行很簡單嘛我們今天本來就是要先選出朝委嘛朝委選出來之後要決定議程怎麼辦那朝委可以去決定就好"},{"start":2287.114,"end":2306.429,"text":"是,那所以就沒有什麼好爭論,就是鍾嘉賓的意識也很,跟我們的意識是一樣的啦,就是說今天沒有什麼議程啦,今天就是,你那個討論事項哪有,今天哪有可能討論事項,那個,那個,那個召委出來之後,他要拜什麼我們就不知道了啊,所以我們今天就先選召委好不好,就這樣就對了"},{"start":2308.439,"end":2312.123,"text":"是啦,這很簡單,這好像沒人要爭議那我們還是麻煩議事人員說明一下因為陳昭平亂講話要糾正他然後我們再來討論,謝謝各位"},{"start":2329.33,"end":2339.905,"text":"立法院議事規則第16條是致詞於開會兩日前送達議事日程嗎?不是說先有召委然後再有兩日的時間然後再有議程不是正常應該這個樣子嗎?"},{"start":2343.359,"end":2364.726,"text":"沒有說啊,就是我們一直在說,對不起,又插話就是還沒有選出未來的召集委員之前是不應當有一個討論事項被定出來了沒有那個委員吼,還有我是每個人的意見我都很重視,那我想我們先請那個議事委員說明一下我們再來討論,這樣比較公正好不好,那請說"},{"start":2368.488,"end":2394.396,"text":"報告委員會我們是根據這個院會12月2日星期一下午兩次召開的第一次會議會議就是由國民黨黨團推派之代表充任主席由主席委員決定本調查委員會之召集人並議決立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會運作要點報告完畢"},{"start":2404.555,"end":2410.843,"text":"這我剛才說是議論會招募的人謝謝是啦,那我們就先把召委選出來召委再自己去決定來,就行,來"},{"start":2412.604,"end":2437.898,"text":"那個瓊瑛委員先舉手的是不是先讓他說還是要讓來來來來因為這個是院務交位下來我們依照程序現在推舉出這個主席出來然後就是要選召委依照程序走啊討論事項也是院會交位下來所以等我們召委選出來之後召委再來繼續開會嘛安德華這沒有什麼爭議嘛"},{"start":2445.543,"end":2469.663,"text":"那尋求這個代理召集人的一個請示因為民進黨所提交的這個成員名單裡頭那其實我們有一位成員是現在right now正在院長室宣誓就職的王毅超安委員所以說我們是要替換人員所以說因為本來就是匡定是他"},{"start":2470.383,"end":2490.73,"text":"只是立法院說要等他就職之後所以我要請示一下他等一下2點15分就職完可能2點20分或30分我們的預定成員王逸川是我們的當然委員所以等一下在巡視這個圈票的時候因為當初對因為我們有商量好本來就是王逸川但因為他"},{"start":2491.86,"end":2509.494,"text":"人事處告訴我們他要今天2點15分才會正式就職所以我是想請示說那等一下對要把總召換換本來就跟人事處說明了是因為人事處說時間就是晚15分鐘所以我們其實黨團的成員是王逸傳"},{"start":2510.774,"end":2531.331,"text":"所以說等一下是怎麼樣來處理是不是我們等他就職之後因為我們本來填他但是是人事處告訴我們說他今天2點15分就職所以才說要等他就職之後就可以替換嗎"},{"start":2535.334,"end":2549.142,"text":"我們一開始就有定心往一傳因為本來就是送他,人事處說要等他就任之後才可以,我們只好先填上一個代理的人"},{"start":2549.582,"end":2549.722,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2568.137,"end":2568.638,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2584.095,"end":2584.395,"text":"民政事務部長"},{"start":2612.815,"end":2639.897,"text":"現在就說因為名單在11月27號就送進來這是院會交付如果你要換人我們召委選出來之後那你再按照相關的議事程序去換人可是在現在這個時候你就要說我們要等他來換他所以這要按照程序來走你沒有換人我想我們不會有一件但是我們還是要依照相關的程序來走你到時候要送院會來決定你要送院會說你要換人"},{"start":2641.559,"end":2641.939,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2658.195,"end":2661.297,"text":"報告主席,你要有決斷力,人事的名單出來的要怎麼換?"},{"start":2683.111,"end":2702.738,"text":"民進黨朋友跟立法院講立法院又沒有跟我們講那誰講的為基準進行啊不要偷啦早晚要面對了啦拜託啦我們今天立法院的關係文書裡面記載的人名就在這裡那當然我知道你們可能有一些置換那這個是不是由我們選出"},{"start":2703.658,"end":2722.408,"text":"那個召委之後再由你們跟召委去溝通看怎麼置換好嗎?因為我必須依照現在的選舉人名冊以及關係文書裡面的記載去做我沒有辦法去做這個記載以外的認定雖然我很尊重你們的意見好嗎?好那我想說我們就先進行召委的選舉"},{"start":2724.912,"end":2750.568,"text":"中委員我對剛剛我們臨時主席對於各黨團推派人選的處理我沒有別的意見那麼尊重但是因為一開始我提出的程序問題是根據院會交下來因為剛剛臨時主席有請我們議事人員說明但是我認為還是違反了我們立法院各委員會組織法第4條之1的內容怎麼說呢因為"},{"start":2751.408,"end":2770.448,"text":"我們要推要由出席委員決定召集人院會在做決議的時候是要成立這個委員會而且呢指定了時間就是現在這個時間這個時間連我們連改都不能改那大家一時來出席了那我們要選出召集委員到召集委員選出來之後"},{"start":2771.969,"end":2791.428,"text":"那麼至於院會說的要去處理議決運作要點那是由召委根據我們各委員會組織法第41條來做處理那我這邊容我把過去我們立執法修法之後之前我們成立過8個調查委員會這8個調查委員會我分別的請議事人員仔細聽"},{"start":2795.509,"end":2824.048,"text":"第6屆第3會期美國牛肉進口決策調閱委員會他是在5月3號下午4時他是做黨團協商決定在5月5號召開那麼5月5號之後呢他的第一次的開會時間就是選舉召委另外第6屆第一次會期有通訊保障及監察調閱委員會也是一樣第一次會議就是選召委"},{"start":2825.37,"end":2850.408,"text":"到了第5屆第5次臨時會的時候有一個319槍擊事件啟動國安機制相關文件調閱委員會也是一樣第一次就是選召委所以呢接下來我繼續可以跟大家講第5屆的時候有個民間參與高速公路電子收費系統建置及營運營運甄選過程調閱委員會都是一樣第5屆第5次行政院金融重建基金處理8家信用合作社調閱委員會"},{"start":2851.977,"end":2876.218,"text":"第5屆第3次幻象戰機採購案調閱委員會第5屆第3次行政院金融重建基金會處理36家農漁會信用部調閱委員會第5屆第1次會期通訊監聽執行情形調閱委員會第5屆第1次會期國家安全局預算外秘密帳戶調閱委員會我以上念的這些都是"},{"start":2878.097,"end":2902.55,"text":"請臨時主席容我們這樣說明這些都是在立職法經過這次修改後之前還是適用舊法的吊躍委員會那時候的那時候毫無例外的這幾個的日子它的立法院還包括是國民黨在執政的時期國民黨在立法院有絕對多數的時候第一次的吊躍委員會都是選召委"},{"start":2903.834,"end":2919.433,"text":"那請議事人員你要跟我們說明說為什麼院會的決議我們目前按照我們議事規按照我們立法院各委員會組織法第4之1條來處理也沒有違背院會的交易院會告訴我們什麼時候要開第1次會議而且要推出"},{"start":2921.624,"end":2941.999,"text":"趙偉推出趙偉之後就是由趙偉按照立法院國委員會組織法開始來執行了。另一次的調查委員會都是如此那想請臨時主席說明一下在趙偉沒產生之前我們議事裡面如何從過去的議事常規慣例還有議事我們的相關的這些運作規則可以推出這一次就可以有討論事項要來進行這個運作要點的討論"},{"start":2945.761,"end":2950.206,"text":"這個是侵犯我們未來選出的召委的權限也違反了各委員會組織法釋之一條的規定"},{"start":2952.244,"end":2979.02,"text":"我們不這樣做也沒有違反了院會的教育院會教育我們今天要開會要選出召委而且在選召委之前臨時主席是由國民黨團的推派到目前為止我們的按照院會的執行了我現在只是說目前我們的今天的討論事項這個是逾越了我們過去8次調查委員會的常規也違反了各委員會組織法第4至1條的規定請主席能夠詳查好謝謝那我們先請陳委員補充"},{"start":2981.335,"end":2982.699,"text":"報告主席啊,第一個"},{"start":2983.997,"end":2999.783,"text":"我們就把這次調查委員會的召集人先選出來召集人坐上台下才來決定這些事情你不要被他們迷惑掉好不好他們要想要超延時間啊我跟你講這個速度有時候一定能改變的不是說以前要怎麼樣現在就要怎麼樣"},{"start":3012.887,"end":3031.875,"text":"你這個是為講話而講話雖然攝影機很多你講的意識跟我剛講的就一模一樣了好不好討論事項要拿掉先等一下現在就是沒有討論事項的啦先召委選出來再說啦討論事項要拿掉"},{"start":3033.301,"end":3039.907,"text":"我現在要討論的一件事情跟要選召委有很大的關聯我還是希望能夠獲得提案委員這邊的一些說明"},{"start":3051.296,"end":3075.675,"text":"我們過去在成立這些調查調閱委員會都有相關的組成人數那組成人數按政黨比例為之剛剛嘉賓委員有提到六支三界我們是美國牛肉進口決策調閱委員會那時候是15位然後五支五臨時會第一次就是319的時候是17位"},{"start":3077.717,"end":3091.387,"text":"五之五 民間參與高速公路電子收費系統建置調查委員會人數 15 位五之五 金融重建基金調查委員會人數 21"},{"start":3093.328,"end":3110.944,"text":"那幻象戰機採購案的調閱委員會人數是21然後五至三也有另外一個36家農漁會信用部的調閱委員會人數是21我的意思是說我們在成立任何這個調查委員會、調閱委員會以前是調閱委員會都是一個基數"},{"start":3112.185,"end":3136.314,"text":"然後依政黨比例那當然我知道是提案委員民眾黨團在這個院會的時候就已經自己在提案裡頭寫清楚是7比6比1就是14位那國民黨7席民進黨6席民眾黨1席我還是要清楚說明這跟過去用基數的來計算這個政黨比例是有所不同的"},{"start":3137.174,"end":3161.154,"text":"我們過去在歷次的朝野協商也都很清楚包括韓院長上一次的協商前我們有訂定一個15位的不管是院會要發言15位的基數的調查委員會7比7比1我們還針對這個數學算式算了很久所以7比7比1是我們當初即便是7比7比1藍白加起來還是大於民進黨對不對還是你們還是7加1"},{"start":3164.537,"end":3178.402,"text":"但是這個委員會在院會交付的時候提案的民眾黨已經把名額列為7比6比1所以這個時候已經是民進黨又變成了六位的絕對的弱勢"},{"start":3181.123,"end":3204.945,"text":"所以想要說明一下想要請教一下為什麼這樣的一個席次的分配的決定那我可以很大膽的預測未來在這個必然的這個政黨分配的席次之下對於民進黨的六席他就是絕對的弱勢任何的討論基本上不需要調查不需要討論你們凡事只要透過表決就是贏了"},{"start":3205.706,"end":3219.952,"text":"所以我不曉得為什麼有這個7比6比1的這個組成數字再怎麼樣一慣例也是7比7比1也是以基數為準所以這個東西這是數學問題也是一個合宜的運作的問題"},{"start":3221.172,"end":3235.988,"text":"而我坦白說藍加白7比1、7加1、8席還是大於民進黨的7席只是在發言的人數的分配上居然把它限縮為總數14席這就跟過去基數為主的這個完全運作不一樣"},{"start":3236.969,"end":3237.169,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3257.827,"end":3273.532,"text":"被討論就表決了先依照這個沒有被討論就表決了脫票來選召集人阿剛剛民進黨黨團的你要瞭解14期整期他們有意義就到院會再來討論嘛好不好不要脫了啦"},{"start":3274.312,"end":3282.215,"text":"他們在偷私生你看不出來這個調查委員會還沒有開始連討論都不能討論這個調查委員會一開始連討論都不能討論那是不是就預言了這個調查委員會未來的命運"},{"start":3289.663,"end":3306.858,"text":"就是合宜的發言的時間嘛大家先安靜一下嘛那我非常合宜的提出我的質疑請求說明因為這跟過去的慣例都不一樣計算的基準也都不一樣吳委員我現在先把那個法條跟大家說一下然後我們再繼續討論好不好那個不好意思我們程序問題一句話就好"},{"start":3307.557,"end":3323.996,"text":"那個我們都是舉手發言啦是不是請陳委員舉手然後代理主再請示發言好不好不然這樣一團亂啦對我是覺得一團亂啦好不好那我先說明一下齁第一個齁人數的部分是院會那邊決議的再來依據立法"},{"start":3324.637,"end":3343.372,"text":"院職權行使法46條之一調查委員會的成員是由立法院各黨團一起在院會的席次比例推派那這個人數也不是我們今天要解決的事項那如果說大家有問題應該是在院會那個時候就要表示阿那你今天到委員會"},{"start":3344.133,"end":3369.661,"text":"那天表示你們就強行表決啦我們那天表示你們強行表決啊我意思是說今天我們在這裡我只能拿著選舉人名冊以及關係文書上面所列的人我只能這樣處理我沒有辦法越權去做其他的事情我想你們都能夠理解我在說什麼我無法越權啊"},{"start":3370.481,"end":3379.246,"text":"主席團組討論依照程序進行投票投票投票投票投票投票投票投票投票投票投票投票投票"},{"start":3386.77,"end":3404.481,"text":"院會決議的事項,我們就照院會決議的事項來走這是特種委員會,不是我們一般的委員會特種委員會院會決議的事項,我們就按照院會所排定的議程來走特種委員會根據哪一本議事規則?特種委員會所有的議事運作,按照立法院各委員會組織法來運作"},{"start":3417.247,"end":3443.174,"text":"你告訴我特種委員他如果不依照立法院各委員組織法來運作根據什麼來運作我現在只要求主席我們今天的這個議事日程明顯的討論事項列在上面是侵犯待會要選出來的召委的職權議事人員無權去侵犯待會我們選出來召委的職權我這邊要再提醒院會固然有交易院會交易是決定時間"},{"start":3444.874,"end":3460.306,"text":"決定由國民黨團推派臨時主席而且要來召開這個會議比例也是院會決議至於說要處理運作要點每一個特別調查委員會成立後都要處理運作要點"},{"start":3461.067,"end":3483.863,"text":"那是毫無例外的但是議事人員今天把討論事項列在這裡面明明白白的跟我們8次特別委員會調查委員會的慣例違背也跟各委員會組織法第4至1條違背侵犯了待會我們要進行投票選舉的召委的職權所以現在請臨時主席將討論事項槓掉沒有這個討論事項這是違法的"},{"start":3489.47,"end":3493.952,"text":"我們現在臨時主席請大家看一下這個立法院行為刑事法在剛才講的46之一"},{"start":3504.835,"end":3523.982,"text":"事由之一的第1項．調查委員會的成員由立法院各黨團依其在院會之席次比例推派之．並得視實際情況予以改派那這是在第1項那至於選擇召委是在第3項．調查委員會及調查專案小組應至召集委員1人"},{"start":3524.902,"end":3549.241,"text":"由所屬成員互選之所以我們可以看出說先確定成員然後再來選召集委員這個是這個法律的一個規定所以我們現在應該要先確認成員那我們現在民進黨團也是依照46條之一事實去情況與改派那我們現在希望改派王逸川我覺得這個是程序問題應該要優先處理那等我們成員確定之後"},{"start":3553.945,"end":3567.69,"text":"那再來依46條之一的第三項來選召集委員整個法律的架構也是這樣去建構架構的所以既然我們提出我們希望改派的一個程序意見的時候那當然是要優先處理喔"},{"start":3569.878,"end":3597.907,"text":"那個改派的部分這個是我們等選出召委之後由他來做決定就好了我剛講的就是46條之一第一項的條文的內容這個條文的內容就是必得是實際情況予以改派那我們的實際情況就是我們的希望的成員王逸川委員他因為是在2點15的時候才就職所以我們現在實際情況就是他人也在這裡了"},{"start":3598.607,"end":3619.157,"text":"我們提出程序意見我們希望改派我剛發言的時候因為王醫生還沒正式完成就職現在他已經正式完成了所以我們可以直接replace嗎不要因為特例而改變我們所有都是針對法規今天的名單已經出來了這個公告出來了你們說要變就變那等召委選出來再來討論這個事情還有一點"},{"start":3625.84,"end":3638.615,"text":"如果你們要變應該要跟秘書處講,跟院院去討論,阿他可能不同意的話他說請我們要往益川秀院再說,我們沒有講完就好,一接二來啦這個剛就講過了,人家一早就跟秘書處講過啦現在這個都出來了,名單出了"},{"start":3650.026,"end":3673.905,"text":"因為這會涉及到說未來我們的成員王逸川委員他在行使招委投票權27號的時候到名單的時候他就還不是啦還不是啦那我們現在希望他改派就是未來他接下來要行使招委的投票權一樣他要有這個權利我先在這邊把話說清楚嘛"},{"start":3674.585,"end":3700.018,"text":"我當然非常歡迎王逸川來參加那將來置換我也沒見我先說第一個不是大家不能各說各話來我先說第一個因為我手上的這份名單沒有王逸川我也非常歡迎他將來置換大家一起來討論事項但是我們這一次我們手上的這個名單他是當時有規定必須在11月27號星期三中午12點送交"},{"start":3702.279,"end":3724.704,"text":"宣交議事處會診第一個規定是這樣所以當時的名單是在這個時間點要送出來所以我現在手上比較麻煩的是我拿到的選舉的名冊以及關係文書上面並沒有那是不是沒有我們可以更換按照規定可以更換不是你聽我講完嘛為什麼大家都不讓我把話說完"},{"start":3731.445,"end":3758.619,"text":"好 謝謝大家我的意思是這樣就是因為我們今天的名單都在上面那是不是你們先把這個昭緯的該走的東西我們把它走完那之後要那個置換王逸川我們都非常歡迎那我們再程序往後面走這個不會侵害到誰的權限會 會 昭緯你今天要我做一個關係文書上面沒有的名字我不知道怎麼做"},{"start":3759.059,"end":3778.073,"text":"不是啦,那個趙偉趙偉我說明一下施敏施敏我先講一下你這個名單送進來裡面現在沒有王一川這沒有錯但問題就是說本來成員就可以隨時去做一個更換這個更換裡面符合法律的規定第二這個更換以後民進黨也不會增加一個人"},{"start":3780.942,"end":3801.159,"text":"這個就是ABC的問題就很簡單的問題報告主席啊所以說這樣選舉前可以更換名單哪一個條例講出來啊我們46條之一明文講出來你給我看明單的變更有一定的程序啦我非常贊成剛才陳昌明委員講的"},{"start":3802.16,"end":3802.34,"text":"主席王毅川"},{"start":3823.816,"end":3834.344,"text":"那個王毅昌才是成為我們的這個律師主席啊他目前他不是你怎麼叫他一直說現在要求主席馬上變更為他你不可以隨時改派啦不啦不啦不可以這樣隨時改派不可以這有一定的律師主席狀況欸"},{"start":3846.835,"end":3848.978,"text":"臨時民委員和陳昌明委員"},{"start":3867.337,"end":3889.682,"text":"你都覺得人家很開心我就跟你講我拿你說按照法律規定嘛我條文的一句來念給你聽按照我們整個立法院的支援行使法裡面第14條之一啊我一個字我都全部不要漏啊調查委員會之成員由立法院各黨團依其在院會的席次比例推派之這個當然沒問題並得釋情況予以改派"},{"start":3890.682,"end":3908.284,"text":"是本來就可以改派那所以說阿所以同意阿那我們現在就是要改派阿要送議事書沒有問題阿就是他還沒有就職他現在就職完以後我們現在就是要改派阿我們改派完以後我們沒有增加一個人阿"},{"start":3909.665,"end":3924.771,"text":"我再跟你強調一下你要改派是OK我想大家都贊同歡迎王毅出來成立我們的委員也是我們的委員之一但是依照立法院我們要換人他有一定的意識的一個相關的程序所以過去的慣例都這樣沒有隨時的你這樣別說"},{"start":3931.614,"end":3935.918,"text":"市上上個禮拜就跟立法院說明我們就是王逸川是立法院說要等他今天2點15分就職我們來現場處理"},{"start":3948.909,"end":3956.993,"text":"那你現在去趕快跟議事處講你去跟議事處講你是去跟議事處講他沒權利決定啊沒有啦誰不要議事處去更換名單進來之後才確定換臨時主席我才覺得問題就圓滿解決啦"},{"start":3967.699,"end":3975.387,"text":"我們是由46條之一我們是由46條之一提案申請改派那46條之一明顯是在46條之一的第三項同意已經提了已經提了已經提了是立法院不給我們換的"},{"start":3989.46,"end":3999.525,"text":"好了,已經提給趙偉了,趙偉你肯定身邊就沒有辦法了當時身邊就沒有辦法嘛當時身邊報的時候,身邊就不符合資格嘛所以身邊不可能在現場說話只能在破壞議事規則嘛因為這也是第一次發售一個委員綱號各位同仁,大家都有氣質有水準的請尊重主席好不好,不然大家一起講根本"},{"start":4017.174,"end":4038.611,"text":"聽不到誰在講要嘛就是我們休息三分鐘大家協商休息三分鐘可以大家請喝咖啡我的做法是這樣我們可以請議事人員說明一下法規的規定因為46之一他第一項的規定是得事情況予以改判他不是因事情況予以改判所以我不是啦他就是"},{"start":4042.094,"end":4059.363,"text":"要嘛我們可以請議事人員說明一下對於法律的見解要嘛我們休息三分鐘大家協商不然這樣亂下去我說真的今天有沒有改派這個對於我們目前要選召委他其實有沒有很大的影響這個我們可以去思考一下"},{"start":4060.644,"end":4063.086,"text":"第三方的法治局來說明一下法律規定是什麼"},{"start":4090.441,"end":4093.387,"text":"還是你需要研究一下我告訴你我這個權威見解在這裡你不聽"},{"start":4096.226,"end":4096.546,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4122.25,"end":4125.553,"text":"依照立法院各委員會的召集委員選舉辦法第二條第一項人事處因於每年首次會期黨團所屬委員會參加常設的委員會抽籤日之次日"},{"start":4146.75,"end":4161.272,"text":"每年第二次會期開一次次日編定召集委員選舉人名冊分送各該委員會委員各委員會名冊編定後二日內就要舉行召集委員的選舉"},{"start":4162.393,"end":4183.458,"text":"所以我們今天的我們的委員會這個所有的委員會的名冊今天就已經寫得很清楚就是裡面沒有包含王逸川委員新上任的王逸川委員所以我們現在名冊都已經編訂好了我們今天就是要去選了就依照我們先編訂好的名冊來選招委你不能臨時撮外臨時撮外以後每個委員會都這樣做的話"},{"start":4189.599,"end":4190.12,"text":"長壽委員會不得犯人"},{"start":4207.878,"end":4225.279,"text":"只要召委還沒選出來以前王逸川已經是立法委員的身份他就可以行使他的職權如果說 no no no no no那個在 46 了之一本來調查委員會的成員就可以視情況隨時去做調整是啊所以說因為你還沒選出來嘛"},{"start":4227.121,"end":4255.764,"text":"你太久沒有職業了,連法律都亂解釋亂來亂來亂來專委,專委我小弟你法律的內涵是用心法內涵強,但是德德這個字是由主席在裁定的要不要那個主體是黨團啊黨團才是德的主體不是主席啊你都亂講啦你都亂講啦休息一下我們休息一下,大家溝通一下好不好"},{"start":4263.691,"end":4276.202,"text":"執權行使法是新通過的法律新法是立法院執權行使法是新通過的法律依新法來處理而且今天處理的就是立法院執權行使法所規範的調查委員會黨團得事情況去調整參與的委員"},{"start":4284.288,"end":4303.872,"text":"那這也是史上很特別的．補的委員是今天．補的時間跟我們開會的時間是重疊的所以我們希望補正民進黨團更換王逸川之後確保王逸川新任委員的權益"},{"start":4558.451,"end":4576.741,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":4594.975,"end":4604.485,"text":"不要剝奪王毓川的權利他現在已經就任了不要剝奪王毓川的權利依照立法院職權行使法新通過的法律王毓川有權地府王毓川有權地府"},{"start":4762.625,"end":4787.963,"text":"我們要改派王逸川是因為王逸川人緣好啊搞不好他會當選欸對不對有這個可能啊為什麼我們不能改派就是在確定召委前然後我們現在要我們要改派王逸川因為王逸川的人緣好啊我們總召的仇恨值比較高可能大家不要支持他這個有很大的不同啊權力的不同欸"},{"start":4820.072,"end":4830.561,"text":"主席主席主席來我想讓三個黨團幹部去談一下主席我們現在可以發言嗎?等一下"},{"start":4874.188,"end":4877.41,"text":"議員選票那邊要沒有我們黃衛寧選票?"},{"start":4903.481,"end":4907.568,"text":"開會了!開會了!開會了!開會了!開會了!拖延到現在可以了啦!"},{"start":4928.373,"end":4948.56,"text":"不行啊!因為我們先要求改派這會涉及到未來我們成員王逸川、我們成員的權利啊!還沒有選召委的權利啊!民進黨各位委員不要特別開創歷史選票裡面沒有王逸川的名字嘛!不然你們要改派提早講啊!不然這個票要怎麼投?"},{"start":4949.881,"end":4951.863,"text":"主席那我具體提議好嗎?"},{"start":4965.981,"end":4966.381,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":4981.915,"end":5003.113,"text":"議事規則就是我手上拿的規則你們沒有人要聽規則我們立法委員行為法裡面其實我們在會議期間你剛剛講的是常設委員會我們現在說的是調查委員會請依我們剛剛上會期表決通過的調查權行使立法院職權行使法第8章46之1條第一項立法委員要守法"},{"start":5008.831,"end":5010.372,"text":"我講的像大法官在跟你們宣誓條文一樣"},{"start":5030.517,"end":5052.8,"text":"不要再這樣子了好不好因為我跟你說我跟各位報告一下我個人也是非常歡迎王逸傳一起我們將來一起都可以開會討論嘛那但是呢我今天當臨時主席我所收到的名單真的是只有這些只有這些東西這些那你說會議其實我們在兩點整就開始了那各位"},{"start":5053.34,"end":5075.639,"text":"今天要到場的委員也一定會收到我們立法院給你們的開會通知那如果沒有在名單上面以及沒有收到開會通知的你說要我主席這邊就是直接把他更換我也覺得這個很奇怪主席可以不用再打了你有那個權利啦你們讓我把話說完嗎你有權利啦我事實給你支援啦不用"},{"start":5075.939,"end":5097.813,"text":"不用今天就是我今天主席拜託我把話說完所以我們今天在任何會我們在任何會議的時候其實名單就是提供給會議的主席的時候的名單長什麼樣會議主席也是只能就名單的部分去處理那有的人如果在開會的時候沒有辦法趕到場"},{"start":5098.413,"end":5118.248,"text":"你說臨時大家講一講就丟一個名單出來置壞那至少在我對於會議的理解上面我不知道這個是可以做的我認為這是不行而是以今天誰收到開會通知還有今天的選票上面有誰是以這個為基準才對啊那你怎麼會要求我去做一個"},{"start":5119.942,"end":5140.037,"text":"主席我有意見我們不是隨便換一換我們事前送名單給立法院的時候就已經說明我們有王逸川委員那我甚至覺得那為什麼今天我們這個會就是要硬比王逸川兩點十五就值早十五分我甚至覺得你就算卡王逸川嘛有啦你講最多啊"},{"start":5142.919,"end":5160.14,"text":"你今天尊重我尊重我主持會議嘛那我剛才也說的非常的清楚了因為今天收到開會通知的委員有哪些那還有今天我們會議的名單立法院院會交給我的名單上面有哪一些人"},{"start":5161.241,"end":5161.601,"text":"不正常"},{"start":5182.697,"end":5196.24,"text":"我跟妳講那妳照這樣講好了啦那妳今天開庭開到一半我這個已經地委任狀的律師我想說妳拜五韓國瑜院長也要再處理變更議程這個昭偉昭偉我跟妳補充一下妳這樣講就不對了啦我依據我對於議事規則的了解我就依據議事規則來處理那如果妳們認為我這樣做不對那歡迎妳們就之後再行發言今天我就依據我對於會議"},{"start":5207.883,"end":5214.088,"text":"這個就不好啦這個我跟主席來做一個說明大家尊重你主席講完以後你不能講完以後你洗胎都沒人說第一個啊主席剛剛錯誤了一點在什麼地方你的意思就是說我遞委員狀進去以後開庭他要一半隨時要把他解任掉換人可不可以法院如果認為可以的話當然就可以啊第二個啊"},{"start":5231.542,"end":5250.27,"text":"我們在整個職權刑署辦法裡面46條之一就講得很清楚除非你這個條文的認定是說你這個名單裡面全部都是要在你名單列印出來以前才可以去做調整那你的意思就是說46條之一是開會完以後全部都不能更換名單喔"},{"start":5251.13,"end":5251.51,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5268.789,"end":5269.409,"text":"主席主持"},{"start":5287.233,"end":5310.062,"text":"大家都是按條文喔46條之一的第一項來申請如果照主持人的說法那是不是在禮拜五的時候議程確定就不能再變更議程今天是主持委員會那是院會交辦我主持的是嗎院會交辦你說就是因為交辦你才會在那個地方啊那我們是在跟你講說你的職權薪酬辦法裡面有特殊的一個安排本來就可以去隨時做更換嘛"},{"start":5311.403,"end":5328.731,"text":"那在今天會議兩點開始之前我們有收到的名單以及委員的資料那我們就盡量來處理那如果你們當初認為說王委員要置換的話那你們應該早一點去跟那個委員會早就講了我上禮拜就講了立法院是你們家開的你們都不理阿是你們不理阿你們就不要王一川幹阿我上禮拜就講了阿"},{"start":5338.977,"end":5359.844,"text":"我上禮拜就已經說請求因為我愛上委員的就任時間是今天下午先等一下我還沒講完你們今天要求我處理的是一個我手上拿到了這一份立法院給我的關係文書上面名單以外的人我沒有不歡迎他但是因為名單上面就是長這樣"},{"start":5361.064,"end":5388.235,"text":"我沒有真的沒有辦法怎麼另外的處理如果今天大家對於我們今天開會會因為王委員還沒有辦法去地補的話那其實你們應該當初要向院會說我們是不是開會的時間改其他日子然後讓他能夠能夠整個程序走完嘛但是你們並沒有這麼做結果我今天拿到了這份開會的資料上面沒有王委員那關係文書也沒有王委員結果我今天要怎麼做"},{"start":5388.815,"end":5395.019,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5412.071,"end":5412.472,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5429.255,"end":5448.115,"text":"我想剛剛幾位委員在這個過程當中也跟我們今天的主席有做了一個意見交換那建議待會主席可以請法治人員、議事人員依法來做解釋首先其實剛剛很多委員都講到第一個很清楚的不管是會議通知還是他所附的會議文件這都是公文書"},{"start":5449.136,"end":5478.195,"text":"公文書的內容不能與法律抵觸也不能去拘束依法行使的職權那首先我要指明請主席做出一個明確的決定目前這份公文書當中的討論事項它明顯地寫了討論事項這已經是抵觸了立法院各委員會組織法第4之1條議程系由召集委員排定這個公文書的內容侵犯了"},{"start":5479.443,"end":5497.826,"text":"法律給召委的權限這要予以更正這是第1個那待會請主席看是要直接處理還是請法政人員說明我要強調這是公文書第2個所謂的選舉人名冊他的擅自其實並沒有錯誤因為這份公文書他的附件在產生的當下"},{"start":5499.188,"end":5513.321,"text":"當時本院的立法委員113名當中並沒有王逸川委員所以裡面沒有他的名字這並沒有錯誤但是這是公文書公文書發到我們委員會已經有臨時主席在主持會議了"},{"start":5514.562,"end":5534.31,"text":"那麼民進黨黨團很清楚的根據我們剛通過的法律立法院指權行使法第46條之一的第一項黨團得更換他們推派的代表那目前在2點15分王逸川委員已經就任了"},{"start":5534.81,"end":5550.849,"text":"他本身已經具備了立法委員的職權了民進黨黨團也根據了立法院職權新法第4條之一的第一項跟我們臨時主席遞出了民進黨團依法要請求變更代表我們並沒有說這個明徹有誤"},{"start":5553.545,"end":5568.046,"text":"這個名冊產制的時候王逸川還不是立法委員但是當現在我們開會後的兩點十五分他已經是立法委員了民進黨黨團根據46條之一我們遞出要求改派我們的代表"},{"start":5568.635,"end":5589.62,"text":"那麼這個可以由我們本委員會的臨時主席來依法處理那這個部分我們講得很清楚那至於也回應一下我們臨時主席你剛剛講到的立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法你引用了你說的是第一幾條"},{"start":5590.82,"end":5609.397,"text":"二條第一項很好但你要注意到第一條這個選舉辦法他是根據他前面說的他上位法是各委員會組織法第三條之四那你看看第三條之四寫什麼第三條之四寫的是立法院各委員會召集委員二人請問我們今天召集委員幾人"},{"start":5610.698,"end":5628.798,"text":"我們是特別委特種委員會所以我們各委員會組織法他是指常設委員會特種委員會得準用之所以如果你要引述那個選舉辦法那我們要告訴你我們本委員會只有一位召委這是由院會在設立這個特種委員會之後就明白的講了很清楚的"},{"start":5630.419,"end":5646.913,"text":"選一位召集人來擔任所以這裡面你要在援引下位的辦法我覺得有點位階上有點錯字啦所以我還是請求我們臨時主席很清楚的對這兩個第一個叫做公文書的更正"},{"start":5648.014,"end":5664.083,"text":"這是更正因為裡面的討論事項明顯的逾越了我們公文書擅自的原則衝突了、抵觸了我們立法院我們的各委員會組織法第4-1條的規定議程應由召委來排定第二個我們請求的是我們"},{"start":5665.203,"end":5684.892,"text":"我們沒有質疑這張選舉的名稱有錯誤我們是根據現在的狀況在我們行使投票之前請我們本特政委員會準於就是我們民進黨黨團一46條之一我們提出要更換代表那請主席來處理那我有聽到大家的意見那我現在想說"},{"start":5686.84,"end":5686.94,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5710.109,"end":5734.992,"text":"我們如果要求個別的議事人員出來講話沒有人敢講那是不是我們給他們比如說20分鐘讓他們討論一下由他們等於討論的結論給我們我們依據結論來走這樣不知道好不好我想這是最公平的做法好不好我想這是最公平我們沒有偏袒任何一方的做法好嗎不是啦我是說因為大家的意見不知道可能是五方十方吧大家意見不一樣"},{"start":5736.861,"end":5763.458,"text":"這樣也不行嗎不是不行我給你一個建議這不是雙方這只有單方如果說王逸川現在已經具備了立法委員的身份我們現在整個開會連召委都還沒有選舉的話王逸川現在地補上來他不會讓國民黨或者另外一個陣營裡面你們人數加起來你們居於劣勢不會這第一個所以那第二個就是說"},{"start":5764.847,"end":5769.235,"text":"你說叫他刮長尿法律明明就擺在那個地方啊"},{"start":5770.936,"end":5798.459,"text":"這是解釋的問題啊好那鍾委員所以我現在的意思是這樣不管單方說我也覺得如果說待會決議是覺得可以置換這法律上沒有問題那我們也非常歡迎王委員一起加進來我現在很單純就是如果現在大家爭執這麼多你看我們已經浪費了一個小時都沒有決議我們是不是讓專業的法治局給他們一個10分鐘或20分鐘去討論然後由他們出來一個他們最後的結論我們就依據那個結論嘛"},{"start":5799.44,"end":5808.707,"text":"如果他認為說可以換,那我們沒有意見,我非常歡迎,就是你了。稍微我只要提出一個問題,你馬上就毛色頓開啦。不然你認為46條之一是在處理哪一種狀況?"},{"start":5814.752,"end":5838.528,"text":"就很簡單,46條之一就是在整個議程還沒有結束之前比如說吳思堯他到最後他要國家外交部拜託他到哪一個國家去了我們就來換名單,吳思堯換某某某大家來裁定,就這麼簡單而已所以我現在的意思就這樣嘛因為大家對於法律的見解不一樣那我們就請專業的"},{"start":5840.669,"end":5862.347,"text":"法治局他們來討論結果大家一起遵循那我們就不會有爭議那不然再吵一個小時還是沒有結論那麼會吵那個張委員你法律的見解很深入但是現在是在委員會進行之中只需得是由他在裁定要不要捏"},{"start":5863.98,"end":5864.12,"text":"主席"},{"start":5894.321,"end":5896.043,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6564.858,"end":6566.299,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6587.549,"end":6594.795,"text":"你讓王逸川今天穿西裝這麼沿道這麼對不對做好準備就不讓他來成為成員小組成員哪有這回事"},{"start":7167.927,"end":7193.65,"text":"好,那我們開始開會,欸,人怎麼都不見了?專業意見專業意見不是,那其他人不來嗎?我們等你啊,我們來這邊等你主席,直接到了,專業意見開始開會,不是大家都進來聽嘛,這樣等一下不會又再吵成一團了我們都很誠懇的在這邊那個"},{"start":7196.431,"end":7216.206,"text":"不是阿其他怎麼會有這樣阿你一定要等到其他人嗎不是會議時間開始了嗎蠻爭議的東西我希望大家再都聽一下大家意見嘛好不好那我們是不是請那個法治局說明一下就是以法治局為就是討論出來的結果那這跟個人無關就麻煩說明一下法規規定"},{"start":7219.866,"end":7238.796,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好那今天的那個議程主要是依據第11屆第2會期第10次院會的一個決議以及依據11月27日關係文書來辦理那我們尊重那個院會決議還有11月27號關係文書的相關規定辦理以上"},{"start":7244.52,"end":7253.593,"text":"所以你的意思關西文書跟法律未接誰高誰低呢?法治局我剛聽完他們的講話就說依據那個院會的決議"},{"start":7257.472,"end":7274.101,"text":"是依據院會的決議那我想說這個就是最後的結論我們就不要再爭執這個部門好嗎有有有有有有我覺得我覺得這樣啦像這麼多人在因為剛剛法治局已經說明他們的意見就是依據院會的決議那如果說今天我們還要再有不同那那"},{"start":7276.442,"end":7302.521,"text":"委員會決議沒有說不能換人啊我就舉一個很簡單的例子啦今天吳宗憲跟我莊瑞雄或者請裡面任何成員我們接受行政院的邀請都去當部長馬上就可以換人啊因為今天院會的決議院會的決議也沒有這幾個名單有啊院會決議沒有院會決議只有這個委員會要成立這個名單是今天開會才送到桌上的"},{"start":7304.763,"end":7325.377,"text":"院會決議沒有包括說不能夠來依據法規來更換名單院會決議當天沒有這些名單我覺得就是說我們剛已經請第三方法治局做出決定了就我們現在又要再回過頭去就法律去爭執"},{"start":7328.854,"end":7352.267,"text":"主席有話要講我跟妳講齁我就就依據法治局的建議因為我手上拿到的立法院的關係文書非常明確的就是有哪一些人都在上面然後另外錯錯錯你看討論事項也要更正啊也要更正不是嗎主席"},{"start":7354.662,"end":7366.944,"text":"還是說這邊有委員並沒有拿到我們上次那個通過的名單主席我問一句話就好好不好主席可不可以不要發言請問一下我尊重主席可不可以講話"},{"start":7371.495,"end":7392.964,"text":"主席我的問題我不是愛講話啊等一下,我不是愛講話欸我是剛提出問題你們沒有人回答你要法治局回答也可以啊吳宗憲、黃國昌、莊瑞雄等一下我們都接受行政院的邀請我們去當部長當然要換人啊民眾黨馬上可以補一個人國民黨補一個人民進黨補一個人啊"},{"start":7394.295,"end":7417.913,"text":"我都假設這種狀況啊那我可以講了齁我的意思是說46條之一就是這樣解釋啦這個哪有什麼好講的這個這三歲小孩都知道啊那我講話齁主席可以齁好來主席台灣對日本的冠亞軍戰啊先發名單都可以更換投手當然要罰款啦我們現在是已經比賽中了難道不能因為球員受傷換代打嗎現在這個情況就是這樣子"},{"start":7421.519,"end":7446.167,"text":"你如果認為這是先發名單那假設說要更換先發名單要根據什麼程序過去有沒有一個運作的規則其次目前我們就算以棒球來比擬我們現在委員就像球員一樣有人受傷換代塔還需要回到大會去決定嗎主審就可以決定您就是主審啊主審你就可以決定我們受理那我還是再度請求我們這個討論事項是錯誤的"},{"start":7448.476,"end":7466.049,"text":"主席兩號傷害也要換代打我現在已經說得很清楚剛剛在休息之前我已經講很清楚了就是我們尊重專業的法治局他們對於法條的認定所給我的結論那剛剛法治局已經說得很清楚了是依據院會所交付的決議來"},{"start":7467.51,"end":7489.165,"text":"那院會給我的關係文書裡面的名單上面非常清楚那如果哪一位委員沒有拿到名單我們現在可以再提供給委員那因為名單上面呢就是我想各位手上應該有名單齁就是這些委員那剛剛法治局給我們的結論是這樣那我就依據這樣處理齁我剛剛說的很清在休息前我說的很清楚了"},{"start":7490.026,"end":7518.035,"text":"我們就是讓專業的立法院法治局去做出決定告訴我們法律上的建議那我就是依據他的建議處理其實我手很痠其實我手很痠我舉了這麼久主席超過3點了啦投票時間結束了啦如果你要跟我們說現在已經超過3點了你連禮票都不能領啊要不要回到大會去處理你看他們是不是寫的到3點截止尊重關係文書啊關於文書主席的決定就是現在就3點截止禮票了啦"},{"start":7519.515,"end":7531.019,"text":"主席我舉手舉了這麼久主席我舉了這麼久不能講話嗎主席我不能發言嗎"},{"start":7549.076,"end":7568.537,"text":"吳宗憲委員吳宗憲交委吳宗憲交委哈嘍看過來看過來看過來看過來不要眼光閃爍不要眼光閃爍啊我舉手這麼久不讓我發言主席"},{"start":7570.745,"end":7591.727,"text":"主席你舉手這麼久,為什麼我不能發言啊?老闆啊主席啊我不能發言啊先停止齁,我們已經讓我們多多的來選召委,就你們贏了就結束了,你就在這裡走不知道在走什麼我們先處理這件事情齁,謝謝各位那我們現在,沒關係啦我覺得今天大家既然要這樣那我們就請那個"},{"start":7593.528,"end":7616.709,"text":"哪位議事的人可不可以說明一下我們今天如果是委員會這邊我們的下午時間3點這個可不可以由主席來宣布變更換哪位議事的人說明一下3年前才可以啊3年後就不行啊3年前可以3年後當然不行啊如果你們的議事文書不是說要按照關係文書嗎議事文書關係文書都可以凌駕法律的話那當然就不行啊"},{"start":7620.212,"end":7624.676,"text":"結果你現在不知道怎麼主持突顯出我們調查委員會沒有議事規則這多荒謬啊調查委員會他沒有一套可以適用的議事規則所以主席你主持到一半你不知道怎麼主持你還得叫法治局去溝通去講20分鐘主席我沒有硬啊我現在是在講立法院行為行使法45條人數由院會議決"},{"start":7649.877,"end":7664.569,"text":"46條之一議決之後的人數我們可以要求改派我們都按照條文條文就長這樣那因為議事規則沒有出來你沒有辦法有適用的議事規則這個就是現在的矛盾現在的荒謬那謝謝蔡委員說明完畢了那可不可以讓我這邊來處理"},{"start":7669.733,"end":7677.162,"text":"麻煩一下我在主持會議你們永遠一直這樣子插話讓我把話說完好不好因為我們舉手沒有用啊麻煩一下各位都這麼資深的委員了麻煩一下今天會議我在主持"},{"start":7687.975,"end":7717.558,"text":"我都不會有太多的意見我覺得今天非常的明確這邊有寫領票截止時間就是到投票截止時間到我看召集委員選舉截止時間到下午3點那我們就請議事人員說明這個下午3點可不可以在現在下午3點38分的時候做任何更動那如果不行那就不行可以就可以我覺得我們就一切依照法律規定不要在這邊各說各話的吵好不好謝謝各位"},{"start":7717.998,"end":7718.678,"text":"那我們請議事人員說明一下"},{"start":7729.507,"end":7756.196,"text":"好,報告委員會就是立法院各委員會組織法第4條之一各委員會之議程由輪值召集委員決定之好,報告完畢那如果由我這邊就可以決定那我們就把截止選舉的時間我們把它延長到那你為什麼不能決定更換名單呢你可以決定違反關係文書的內容"},{"start":7758.297,"end":7786.814,"text":"你可以這樣決定白紙黑字寫說三點就完成投票你可以權力這麼大那現在我們依程序依法規提出來的更換人員你就不受理主席你的決定是完全依你自己的意識形態在決定欸他不是依意識規則他是依他的意識形態是依他的意識形態那為什麼你不能受理更換委員的名單呢"},{"start":7787.654,"end":7794.119,"text":"委員選舉委員名冊一號林思明委員、二號吳宗憲委員、三號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、三號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、三號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、四號徐希穎委員、"},{"start":7814.696,"end":7814.896,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":7830.153,"end":7845.477,"text":"委員看到3點到了沒有投票就走了他沒有投投票怎麼辦主席請回答一下投票到3點怎麼有這麼不中立的議事人員怎麼有這麼不中立的議事人員議程剛剛就講到3點就是要這樣強度關山"},{"start":7858.82,"end":7880.712,"text":"就是要這樣不公正的主持你剛剛不是日式日程寫的這麼清楚到3點嗎?一個小時幾點開始算?到幾點?你們要開始現在?好,那就那個發票機唱票員有號那請問要推舉哪一位委員為計票跟監票員?"},{"start":7883.352,"end":7884.993,"text":"楊委員擔任計票跟監票員本次召集委員選舉截止時間我們剛剛已經有宣告過了"},{"start":7902.989,"end":7908.834,"text":"4點40分,如果所有委員已經出席完成投票就提前開票,請問有無異議?"},{"start":7924.907,"end":7945.226,"text":"就是現在開始的一個小時嘛那如果你要堅持延後兩分鐘四十二分也可以那就是四點四十二分一個小時一個小時對四十二分就四點四十二分不是啊你們這樣一直這樣鬧鬧你要你就一直定五點嘛好不好就定五點嘛"},{"start":7948.468,"end":7952.55,"text":"本來我們宣告完你鬧一鬧然後又說時間又過我覺得大家不要爭執了那我們現在開始領票"},{"start":7964.355,"end":7967.058,"text":"到那個4點42分好不好4點42分那麻煩來領票領票領票領票對4點42"},{"start":7979.753,"end":7979.953,"text":"臨時委員一票"},{"start":8006.169,"end":8006.85,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8025.947,"end":8027.488,"text":"通知三點通知三點通知三點"},{"start":8042.902,"end":8064.967,"text":"怎麼就認定?臨時主席可以改變時間?如果不能改變名單就不能改變時間啊?你超過投票時間啊!超過投票時間啊!我們來找!我們來找啊!無效啊!沒辦法!超過投票時間!不要!黃毅昌等下子要來開會你不要拜託!超過投票時間!不要!黃毅昌等下子要來開會你不要拜託!"},{"start":8068.269,"end":8072.953,"text":"投票已經超過時間,不笑了啦!不笑了啦!不笑了啦!投票完了還在決定延長"},{"start":8085.284,"end":8085.844,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8106.735,"end":8109.576,"text":"兩點是不是在會議期間好不好?會議期間、投票期間什麼不中立?"},{"start":8130.99,"end":8134.113,"text":"投票時間的投票會有效"},{"start":8159.375,"end":8166.501,"text":"中間還有一個人,你要放棄你的權利嗎?他現在不投就是給你鬧到42%"},{"start":8175.51,"end":8183.816,"text":"不是啦,因為現在已經宣告到42分了,剛剛你有宣告到42分,他們42分都不會再出現了其實我們剛剛有請議事的人說明說可以更改這個時間嗎?因為昭緯決定,昭緯已經講完欸所以他們亂再投完啊?我們投完了今天大概到這了吧?"},{"start":8199.328,"end":8209.877,"text":"要到42分他們來投完選完召委OK啦今天就OK啦不是啦他們從頭到尾就是來鬧我們其實今天換不換人我們也是贏的我們先在這裡啦到辦公室可以嗎?42分嗎?對"},{"start":8222.749,"end":8225.17,"text":"議事規則沒有改?沒有沒有那個沒改"},{"start":8252.73,"end":8253.111,"text":"主席"},{"start":11624.725,"end":11626.667,"text":"宣告宣告宣告"},{"start":11647.762,"end":11668.391,"text":"修憲委員會有一個改推派蔡世應委員參加當時的做法是送議事處處理所以再麻煩民進黨團把提案委員的部分改為王逸川委員把資料送議事處處理謝謝"},{"start":11670.947,"end":11697.061,"text":"這個宣告有意義我們修憲委員會的地步那是修憲委員會我們現在成立的是調查委員會調查委員會依據的是立法院職權行使法第8章調查權之行使所以最新上個會期修法通過的46支一條的第一項有清楚明定調查委員會黨團得事狀況來予以更換成員"},{"start":11699.582,"end":11727.984,"text":"所以一碼歸一碼不要只入為碼修憲委員會過去的案例那個是過去修憲委員會各個修憲委員會也有他的修憲委員會的運作規範可是今天在處理的是調查委員會主席我只是要說這個才是是大有問題我們的議事人員要依據的是立法院職權行使法新通過的法律因為這個會議是調查委員會不是修憲委員會這完全是兩碼子事"},{"start":11729.145,"end":11748.132,"text":"當然這也於事無補了無論如何也就是要議事處處理但是這個宣讀不行喔這還是要講清楚主席代理主席的宣讀這都是立法院要議事文書要做成我們的議事記錄的不可以用錯誤的法條來援引不同性質的委員會不能將錯就錯"},{"start":11749.813,"end":11752.456,"text":"有會議請問我先回答一下吳孝偉的意見當然吳孝偉說的沒有錯依據46條之一他確實也是可以改判"},{"start":11765.17,"end":11784.235,"text":"改派程序就是依據 110 年 1629 日的做法我們是援引這個例子來做並不是說不能改派你應該要講援引46之一的立法院職權刑事法才對你不能夠用剛剛修憲委員會完全風馬牛不相及的事情46之一"},{"start":11785.376,"end":11792.925,"text":"所以你剛剛的宣讀要修正不是您剛剛一開始宣讀的東西援引那個修憲委會是完全錯誤的完全錯誤的原理"},{"start":11798.84,"end":11816.393,"text":"改派的那個做法就是依據我剛剛所說的那樣處理哪樣?可能要重新文字再處理一下好嗎?我再念一次我再念一次就是有關民進黨團提案改派為王逸川委員議案那請原力進送議事處處理好謝謝主席歡迎詢問好中委員剛剛你說的修憲委員會是不是有修憲委員會組織規程?"},{"start":11822.705,"end":11827.53,"text":"本會自召集委員5人由委員互選之二、本會會議由首次會議由委員互推一人為主席外以召集委員一人為主席,由各召集委員輪流擔任"},{"start":11846.983,"end":11867.075,"text":"修選委員會的組織規程這是根據立法院組織法第9條所設立的那請問目前我們的調查委員會我們這個調查委員會根據是我們的新的立執法的46條之一有沒有一個組織規程那如果沒有組織規程你要援引修選委員會的組織規程以這樣的方式所謂的更換或遞補"},{"start":11868.295,"end":11881.782,"text":"那你回答一下,我們有沒有組織規程嗎?我回答,我現在回答齁我從頭到尾沒有說過一句話說是援引修憲委員會的組織規程你剛剛不是唸了一串嗎?你把話說完,不要插嘴,謝謝"},{"start":11883.243,"end":11901.188,"text":"我剛剛沒有用我沒有用任何一句話說我們是引用修憲委員會的組織規程我們是原例競送例子的例啦你剛剛原的不是修憲委員會的例我只是要告訴你原例用錯例子沒有我跟你講我已經說原例不是引用他的組織規程啦"},{"start":11903.809,"end":11904.97,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":11933.169,"end":11957.191,"text":"王逸川所以這個是在會議應該要處理的事項所以你剛剛就是原當時這一個蔡適應的狀況但是他不是在會議中處理那我們今天的這個案是在會議中我們正式提案所以應該是你在當主席的時候你就必須要優先處理所以主席阿我來講你本身你也不愛聽不就要講你這樣的主席的意思"},{"start":11958.252,"end":11971.945,"text":"主持議事人違反了46條之一我們今天都是按照立法院行為行使法條文的文字來做會議上去做改派的一個要求結果你完全不處理我們的程序謝謝蔡委員"},{"start":11974.728,"end":11999.525,"text":"我這邊再回到剛剛所說的其實剛剛我們在會議主持的時候我們為什麼停下20分鐘就是我們希望這個議題我們交給最專業的立法院法治局去說明我們該怎麼做如果他給我們的結論跟我們剛剛不一樣不好意思我還在講話請尊重我所以我們剛剛的做法就是依據"},{"start":12000.606,"end":12022.61,"text":"立法院法治局給我們的決議去做的我也從來沒有跟他們講必須要給我答案是要或不要那我就依據他們法治上面給我們的建議我們就這麼做那議事人員也是經常性的會給我們法律上面的解釋那如果各位對於議事人員的解釋對於他們法律上面的解釋喔你們不認同那我們就是尊重你們不認同的那個意見"},{"start":12027.931,"end":12029.613,"text":"黃國昌一票黃國昌一票黃國昌一票黃國昌一票"},{"start":12057.03,"end":12078.461,"text":"黃國昌一票黃國昌一票黃國昌一票黃國昌一票黃國昌一票"},{"start":12088.088,"end":12099.611,"text":"黃國昌一票黃國昌一票黃國昌一票黃國昌一票黃國昌一票"},{"start":12115.848,"end":12131.274,"text":"主席可不可以回應請詢問主席 詢問一下你的宣告我們就認為無效啊你宣告那我還是把程序走完這種程序不完備的選舉有效嗎超過時間的選舉有效嗎原來今天整個都是為了護航黃國昌啊難怪這麼害怕黃國昌的剋星王逸川啊那由我這邊先把"},{"start":12142.839,"end":12169.09,"text":"那個選舉結果宣告完畢那出席委員13人那發出選票8張有效票數8張那無效票0黃國昌委員得票8張所以由黃國昌委員當選為本會本調查委員會召集委員請問各位委員就運作要點草案是否同意另則其處理請問有異議沒有"},{"start":12171.241,"end":12176.465,"text":"主席會議詢問你剛剛是處理哪一項啊?你是處理選舉結果還是處理討論事項?你要處理選舉的事項還是討論事項?沒有討論事項那你剛剛選舉結果宣布完了我可以詢問嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":12196.088,"end":12196.548,"text":"主席,我在詢問中勒"},{"start":12222.045,"end":12242.641,"text":"主席,主席,我們在詢問,詢問可不可以先回答?會議詢問,你是告訴我們嘛,法治局跟議事處是哪一個嘛?議案都處理完畢了。議案都已經處理...啊你不回答我的詢問。不是啊,我跟你說啦。我是跟著你剛剛的宣告,我等你,有耐心等你選舉結果宣告完,我才詢問的喔。我可以講了嗎?所以我在詢問問問嘛。蛤?我可以講話了嗎?"},{"start":12244.895,"end":12272.789,"text":"好那我現在講的就很清楚就對於我們個人對於議事規則上面有什麼不清楚的地方那我會去請教對於議事規則最清楚的人那哪一個人我不需要我為什麼要不是啊那就這樣子那今天的會議都已經處理完畢了那謝謝大家選舉無效從頭到尾就是為了護航黃國昌的當選嘛所以從頭到尾就是為了黃國昌"},{"start":12275.384,"end":12282.717,"text":"這吳宗憲你不要當黃國昌的小弟啦剛剛討論事項其實應該是趙薇來宣布不是臨時主席來宣布"}]}},{"id":"157714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbf526c2b86e6893a08c8dac4d675a5483257d4eed3d4aeff09821e187a9f3e47439805f15628b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"10:39:13 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"text":"立委會呈現高度的政黨的一個傾向那這個政黨的傾向一旦呈現出來後會不會造成這一位大法官在未來在行使憲法訴訟他所做出任何一個憲法訴訟裡面的理由書不管是贊成或者是反對的理由書裡面會不會讓外界先對他"},{"start":171.22,"end":194.809,"text":"貼了標籤先入為主的認為說因為這個大法官是他的背後是誰所支持所以他難免會做出這樣的一個憲法判斷的決定所以我一直認為說我們在審查大法官然後把吳紀明改成紀明的時候對於大法官的中立性是有所減損的那"},{"start":197.714,"end":219.164,"text":"當然不同的政黨之間大家在彼此競爭的過程中都會去主張說這大法官是誰提名的是過去馬英九前總統提名的是蔡英文提名的是現任的賴清德總統提名的當然因為提名人就會讓這些被提名的大法官給他們"},{"start":220.345,"end":221.106,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":243.507,"end":244.568,"text":"公聽會：大法官同意權案"},{"start":273.467,"end":274.008,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":296.977,"end":323.605,"text":"同意權的司法院的未來的院長是讓他們希望他去注重幾個議題第一個議題就是法官長期過勞的議題那以臺北地方法院為例2013年的總案件量是27000件到了2023年已經增加到了35000件而且這個增加的案件當然是以詐騙的案件最多從10年前"},{"start":325.386,"end":353.508,"text":"一年大概800件到2023年暴增到了3000件所以以這樣來說司法院的整個的一個平均的工作的時數是增加了很多平均每日的工作時數11.8小時每週的工作時數是58.9小時所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們希望未來的司法院院長如果通過了提名的話事實上"},{"start":353.948,"end":354.969,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期第2會期"},{"start":380.582,"end":405.15,"text":"事實審是放在第一審那終審的法院是放在了法律審之後那所以我們第一審是一個叫做堅強的事實審第二審是嚴格的續審制第三審則是嚴格的一個法律審這樣的一個金字塔的訴訟程序的程序我們應該要關注的第一個基層法院的資源跟人力是不足的第二個上訴救濟跟司法權的一個保障"},{"start":405.53,"end":413.534,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會．司法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案公聽會．司法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案"},{"start":430.982,"end":453.334,"text":"那當然現在國民黨的立委有提案將憲法訴訟法現有總額把它改成法定總額15人並要求大法官現有總額必須要三分之二的出席以及三分之二的同意才能作出暫時處分或者是評議那這部分會讓如果這一次的大法官沒有辦法通過"},{"start":454.844,"end":470.581,"text":"提名沒有辦法再通過這個人事同意權的話會造成現行的大法官的總額就是只有8人但是在於憲法訴訟法如果修過的這個訴訟法第4條把它改成法定總額15人那"},{"start":472.543,"end":474.584,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期第2會期第2會期第2會期第2會期第2會期"},{"start":501.021,"end":502.409,"text":"空窗起無法行使憲法訴訟的情況之下"},{"start":505.612,"end":534.2,"text":"那我們可以借鏡其他國家相關的憲法法庭我們可以去看如果以韓國為例南韓在今年的下半年也發生了如果這個憲法訴訟法通過的一個情況就在今年的下半年在2024年的10月17號韓國的憲法法院院長跟兩位法官大法官卸任但國會對於任命憲法法院法官"},{"start":535.455,"end":540.089,"text":"的程序仍然是停滯的所以依照韓國憲法法庭第23條第一項的規定"},{"start":543.1,"end":564.989,"text":"本來案件應該由7名以上的法官出席審理但是三位法官卸任之後韓國憲法法院因為無法達到7人的門檻而無法審判因此憲法法院在10月14日一致的決定暫停憲法審判的人數7人的條款所以也是因為這樣暫時解決了這個暫時適用這個條款"},{"start":570.339,"end":596.717,"text":"也暫時的解決憲法審判功能癱瘓的最壞情況那這件事是發生在南韓今年的10月17號那我現在要預知的就是說如果這個憲法訴訟法也真如同現在國會多數黨他們的堅持之下讓憲法法庭癱瘓讓憲法法庭無法行使的時候但是人民對於"},{"start":597.998,"end":612.435,"text":"大法官來行使憲法上的救濟的權利不能被癱瘓我們也呼籲了憲法法庭應該要去看韓國的案例然後讓整個憲法訴訟仍然是可以繼續的行使好 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事項為免人情干擾使例外採秘密投票當年在申請"},{"start":379.875,"end":389.841,"text":"後來宣告國會擴權自肥延任案為無效的時候當時的事件申請文有包括我們在現場的主席韓國瑜院長楊瓊英委員當時102人提出對於"},{"start":395.447,"end":424.566,"text":"對於修憲延任案申請釋憲就申請人自己提到選舉啊避免人情干擾要採取秘密投票那請問人事同意權審查算不算他這裡面所謂的應該要秘密投票但是各國的國籍不同有的採吳敬明投票像法國的眾議院像台灣的舊制但是有的是採敬明投票就是現在的新制甚至更有進一步的美國他是採點名投票啊點名投票什麼意思"},{"start":425.929,"end":448.157,"text":"400多位國會議員一個一個叫起來輪到你說贊成還是反對這個效果比我們的記名投票更為有壓力啊因為是一票一票投啊如果投票你的時候剛好就在可否過半的那個過程你到底要同意還是反對這跟投完票再來開票知道說你到底是制裁還是反對不太一樣"},{"start":449.349,"end":468.826,"text":"但是呢就算過去我們用吳敬明投票還是有各黨都會技術性的亮票叫做監票亮給誰看亮給監票員看亮給監票員是為了什麼目的為了政黨的黨的紀律政黨要求他所屬的國會議員應該要一致性在人事同意權上行使一致立場"},{"start":470.081,"end":492.145,"text":"這到底應不應該這可以討論但是我們從吳敬明投票到晉民投票我們看到吳敬明投票他沒有人情壓力但是他也不用對社會公開大眾負責反而他可以透過技術性的量票給監票人看可以貫徹政黨機率但是又不受到公眾監督所以某個程度來講晉民投票似乎是比較能夠符合國會論證應跟社會大眾負責"},{"start":496.226,"end":520.817,"text":"好,但是我們來看一下一旦記名投票之後會有什麼情況呢?我們看到了這是在當年我們看到的一個投票結果我們看到記名投票立委可以自由表態嗎?當年所謂的最爛的監委名單國民黨多數國民黨執政的時候國民黨提名自己刷掉自己的人因為是無記名投票如果才記名投票這種情況不管誰執政"},{"start":522.228,"end":532.796,"text":"會不會發生 有沒有可能發生 我們來思考一下像這一張2015年馬英九總統提名的黃鴻霞等四位大法官結果蔡明成沒有通過黃鴻霞通過"},{"start":535.287,"end":563.766,"text":"就在不久之前他參與了律師的上街頭遊行反對國會擴權案反對限訴法的一個惡修他說你不能叫我律友友啊嚴格來講我叫馬友友啊因為我是馬英九提名的照社會上的說法啊誰哪個總統提名的他就是哪個人的人馬是這樣子嗎馬英九總統提名的被提名人也有被刷掉的啊也有通過的啊也有通過之後他在今年站出來反對國民黨主導的限法訴訟法的惡修啊"},{"start":565.011,"end":582.736,"text":"我們來看一下,如果一旦才晉名投票的時候,我們會看到過去的吳晉名不會知道個別黨派或黨員、議員的投票結果結果改成晉名投票之後,每個通過的大法官都知道他得到的同意票是分布在哪些政黨"},{"start":583.752,"end":611.128,"text":"那未來這裡面就會出現三個影響第一個被提名人通過之後他知道我今天能當上大法官是誰投票給我同意的好啦 被提名知道了接著審查的人投票的人也知道你會通過投票除了我還有誰同意給你更重要的是社會知道了"},{"start":612.489,"end":641.013,"text":"如果說大法官你的通過審查是我的同意那未來以我為名提出的立法委員提出的釋憲案請問這個被行使同意權的大法官他有沒有壓力啊是不是我們當年韓院長所受的人情壓力啊更重要的是社會怎麼看社會就根據這個同意權行使通過之後所有通過的大法官都有一個各黨派的委員的支持表"},{"start":641.971,"end":642.151,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"157712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157712","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbf526c2b86e6893fdff69d42471b12a83257d4eed3d4aeff09821e187a9f3e4141228277b1494e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:17:31 - 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羅智強怎麼投得下這張票啊我投下這張票我對得起那些被害者跟被害者的家屬嗎我對得起台灣八成的民意嗎所以今天我們在這邊我要告訴大家大法官做實質廢死的判決對我們受害者對司法正義的踐踏我不容許 我不會背書這六位大法官繼續下去 謝謝"},{"start":607.974,"end":607.995,"text":"羅智強"}]}},{"id":"157715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbf526c2b86e6893a9a3230f965ed66483257d4eed3d4aeff09821e187a9f3e434c2034a5d6bfafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:49:33 - 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那我們再提到之前大法官他對於死刑判決的這一次現判制這個現判制他不但侵害了立法院的立法權他也侵害了普通法院法官的"},{"start":256.035,"end":256.955,"text":"公聽會．第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會"},{"start":276.294,"end":277.274,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會 吳宗憲"},{"start":305.047,"end":319.933,"text":"憲判制出來非常的明顯嘛他就是在從事這樣的角色變成是特定政黨的護航者至於說是哪一個政黨我就不多說了所以我還是希望啦大法官行使解釋憲法的權利的時候"},{"start":322.029,"end":349.913,"text":"憲法的問題的時候不應該受到政治力的影響就像他們任職時候他們一定有一個宣誓嘛他秉持超然獨立的精神所以我在審查人選的時候我會重視這一塊這也是我審查的時候非常重要的一個區塊那我覺得強化國會的權力它本來就是一個還權於民的概念怎麼會變成是像某些特定人講什麼毀憲亂政這種名詞都出來我想"},{"start":351.458,"end":377.883,"text":"強化國會還權於民是因為立法院已經是現在國內碩國僅存在中央唯一的民意機關了早期早期在中華民國創立在五權憲法的時代其實監察院跟立法院都是民意機關但是我們在歷次修憲之後只剩下立法院是唯一的民意機關你卻不賦予這個民意機關有相"},{"start":379.136,"end":381.637,"text":"公聽會．第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會"},{"start":405.663,"end":418.25,"text":"國會改革法案發生了一些爭議行政院、立法院、監察院發生了爭議其實憲法法庭也應該要求總統要先出來行使院紀的調解權但是卻"},{"start":419.96,"end":445.66,"text":"大法官就完全無視於這一塊那這個也結果也是導致行政權就是無限的擴張我們不能容許大法官讓或者是現在的執政黨把我們五權 憲法的五權搞到只剩下一權 行政權所以當司法權也要向行政權靠攏的時候當監察權當考試權都向行政權靠攏的時候那我們能夠接受這樣的見解嗎而且"},{"start":448.991,"end":466.197,"text":"立法院已經是中央碩國傾存的民意機關了我們不能讓人民只能對於政府有所不滿對行政權有所不滿他們只能期待下一次的選舉被動的再去爭取自己的權利而是我們在"},{"start":467.142,"end":467.342,"text":"所以喔﹖"},{"start":491.926,"end":491.946,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":510.458,"end":510.698,"text":"公聽會．第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":529.185,"end":554.351,"text":"但是我們必須去思考的是如果今天大法官他在下判決的時候他是處於一個超然獨立的角色去做這個憲法判決的時候當然我們不會隨著大多數民意去走他也有他的反抗大法官有他的反抗的判決出來否則我們就所有東西都做民調了就不需要設置大法官了所以我必須講民意"},{"start":555.475,"end":579.888,"text":"你要去對抗他,但是前提請讓自己在獨立的位置獨立、超然,這時候你才能夠去主張說我們的判決跟民意是不盡相同的我希望司法還是要行使自我的節制不能夠毫無極限的侵害立法權以及司法權我說司法權是法官獨立審判的權限"},{"start":582.029,"end":605.901,"text":"這次憲判制這個大法官的組成扣除掉迴避的三位只剩下三位有刑事判決的經驗所以我這次提出很多大法官其實在憲判制帶給社會的問題那我也很感謝剛剛陳瑞仁大學長他有提到的其實這些當我一直主張這些原本死刑的要執行者他們可能會回到社會但是"},{"start":606.932,"end":631.921,"text":"所有的政客以及側翼都告訴國人說我在欺騙社會但是剛陳德遠大法官也說這些人可能回到社會然後司法院的刑事聆聽長、副秘書長以及法務部的常識也都說會回到社會我們要想辦法解決這個問題結果只有政客告訴我們這些人不會回到社會其實這就是我在立法院我一直堅守的一個立場我要說出實話我不能把真相隱蔽然後不告訴國人"},{"start":633.781,"end":651.789,"text":"當沒有實務經驗的大法官捅出爐子的時候我們在人選的審查上面我們更要注意到實務、理論以及不同的政治傾向的平衡這樣子我們才能夠得到一個最好的憲法法庭這才是對人民有利最後我提一個前大法官"},{"start":652.409,"end":681.81,"text":"那個詹昭元曾經說過就是對於民意到底要不要重視曾經說過他說如果我們不能想像有15個貴族可以決定我們國家所有的事情那為什麼我們可以接受15個大法官不受民意定期監督改選呢然後卻可以否定人民的自我決定連前大法官他都認為其實民意不是對大法官是完全不用踩大法官就是完全都不理民意就可以其實不是這樣子很多時候我們還是必須去多加思考好"},{"start":683.071,"end":689.16,"text":"時間的關係我想我剛剛的論述就是我對於大法官實施審查上面我的想法謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"157716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbf526c2b86e6893ae73a4745c579efd83257d4eed3d4aeff09821e187a9f3e486cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:15:14 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11:24:21","影片長度":"00:09:07","會議時間":"2024-12-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會「行使司法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案」公聽會（事由：第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會「行使司法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-02","start_time":"2024-12-02T11:15:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-02T11:24:21+08:00","duration":547,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.09284375,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.113468750000003,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.575343750000002,"end":85.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.43096875,"end":99.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.31909375000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.43784375000001,"end":126.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.35721875,"end":151.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.31096875,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.22596875000002,"end":169.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.74284375000002,"end":174.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.73784375000002,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.17159375,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.75784375,"end":182.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.24659375000002,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.83159375000002,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.36534375000002,"end":217.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.42721875,"end":227.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.61971875,"end":236.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.22596875000002,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.55784375000002,"end":255.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.09221875000003,"end":281.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.57346875,"end":301.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.27909375,"end":341.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.95221875000004,"end":354.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.96284375000005,"end":364.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.08346875,"end":433.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.03471875,"end":445.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.59846875000005,"end":448.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.12534375,"end":450.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.48784375,"end":515.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.50721875,"end":529.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.5178437500001,"end":532.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.24721875,"end":544.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.9753437500001,"end":546.6797187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.509,"end":25.596,"text":"請發言是 而院長 還有在座各位學者委員各位媒體朋友 各位先生女士 大家好這次進行大法官人事案的這個審查那麼本席以及在在野黨的委員們一定會秉持著嚴格把關 寧缺勿濫的原則去審查這次的大法官人事案"},{"start":26.616,"end":27.057,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會"},{"start":42.937,"end":43.959,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":60.798,"end":85.24,"text":"正因為大法官的釋憲判決是如此的重要所以更要強化憲法法庭的嚴謹度和專業度並且要慎選大法官要選出有良好的人品操守、法律專業能力並且要能夠以民為本可以抵抗政治壓力超越黨派之外並且忠於憲法精神的大法官"},{"start":86.488,"end":109.964,"text":"由於我國大法官的提名方式是由總統一人提名全數的大法官而不是像西方的國家那麼有些是明定部分的憲法法庭的法官是由國會和法院的體系推薦產生因此當總統提名大法官人選的時候如果只看重的是與自己政治立場相近的親近人士而不是廣納"},{"start":110.865,"end":121.766,"text":"多元不同政治立場和法律觀點的人選的時候就有可能會提名的一群政治色彩鮮明法律見解偏頗的大法官"},{"start":123.476,"end":150.622,"text":"大法官的獨立性是極為重要的但是要如何評價大法官們是否獨立、不向當權者靠攏最簡單的方式就是聽其言、觀其行、讀其解釋文特別是針對具有高度政治意義的事先案大法官是否勇於站在與當權者對立的那一面而不是始終都是與當權者同一陣線這個是一個非常重要的觀察指標"},{"start":152.386,"end":168.695,"text":"我們看看過去蔡英文總統提名的那群大法官們他們在釋憲案上面總是力挺執政的政策捍衛總統的意志違反廣大的民意例如針對軍公教退休人員的年金改革的釋憲案"},{"start":170.747,"end":194.26,"text":"來諸標示的釋憲案、農田水利會改制的釋憲案以及近期實質廢死的釋憲案和國會改革釋憲案等等這些都讓人不禁懷疑這群大法官究竟是捍衛人民的權益還是當權者的利益又或是標新利益難怪這群大法官會被冠為是這個保皇派的大法官"},{"start":196.108,"end":217.093,"text":"當初蔡英文提名的這15位大法官好不容易現在已經有7位卸任了現在還留有8位的大法官未來勢必仍將繼續捍衛民進黨的執政利益因此接下來的這7位大法官的人選非常重要必須要是能夠平衡現在憲法法庭一面倒的狀況"},{"start":218.493,"end":245.023,"text":"必須要能夠引進多元不同的法律觀點的大法官才能夠客觀正確的去解釋憲法那適用憲法今天我們審查賴清德總統提名的司法院院長、副院長和大法官的被提名人的這份名單不難看出賴總統的提名是有多麼的用人為親滿滿綠油油的親旅人士"},{"start":247.739,"end":262.946,"text":"司法院院長被提名人張文貞是民進黨申請國會改革法案指定的鑑定人司法院副院長被提名人姚立民則是遊走於政治領域更是賴清德當競選總統時候的主任委員"},{"start":267.428,"end":275.931,"text":"廖福特教授則是民進黨中央黨部的仲裁委員也是中天換照聽證會上面的鑑定人主張中天不讓他換照生律的立場非常鮮明劉靜怡教授曾經擔任黨產條例事件案的鑑定人他主張沒有違反憲法而且還參與卡管案的連署"},{"start":291.075,"end":292.277,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會：第11屆第2次全院委員會"},{"start":302.798,"end":323.076,"text":"鄭大的何賴傑教授也曾經在太陽花學運的時候批評當時的行政院院長江一樺說歷史會留下你的罵名他同時也是廢死學者政治立場偏綠那麼陳韻才教授也是挺廢死的學者正是在聯署反對國會改革法案的學者的名單當中那麼他也簽下了他的名字"},{"start":326.158,"end":328.139,"text":"王碧芳法官則是許仲麗院長長期以來的左右手,雖然主導憲法訴訟法的修法,但在這次憲法訴訟的總統爭議上,我們也沒有看到她有提出任何立場見解。"},{"start":342.209,"end":362.143,"text":"台灣法學界和食物界優秀人才何其多,但是賴清德卻提名了一群具有高度爭議性而且政治立場鮮明的人來擔任大法官。如果這波人事案全數通過,可以預見,岌岌可危的大法官公信力將會被全盤摧毀。"},{"start":366.401,"end":387.256,"text":"我們仔細看這次他所提名的這七位大法官其實只有一位具有法院事務經驗那另一位則是政治經驗豐富其餘的五位呢都是學者但是如果剩下的這七位以及接下來就是現在提名的這七位以及現在留任的八位大法官來看他們的這個憲法"},{"start":389.918,"end":390.358,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":409.831,"end":433.049,"text":"司法院院長本席這裡也保持高度質疑的態度因為張文正教授他沒有行政領導實務運作的經驗對於司法改革、司法人員過勞等等這些問題到底有沒有能力去解決會不會淪為空有理想而不能實踐最後是一事無成留下一堆爛攤子給司法院跟立法院"},{"start":435.083,"end":446.654,"text":"我們知道這幾年來大法官常常自以為是人權的進步者很喜歡將自己的道德信念強加於人民的身上透過視線來造線來造法最後"},{"start":451.53,"end":476.231,"text":"很有可能會讓台灣從所謂的民主法治國被顛覆成為大法官治國那麼這樣這一群的大法官呢他們過去常常變更見解或是對爭議性的議題做出與大多數民意相左的判決那麼這樣這樣子的一個態度這樣的做法基本上是違反了我們講的大法官呢不應該要"},{"start":478.132,"end":478.873,"text":"公聽會．第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會"},{"start":508.212,"end":514.865,"text":"但是一旦當憲法法庭大法官成為超級立法者的時候還有誰能夠制衡?"},{"start":516.567,"end":539.381,"text":"最後呢我還要再強調的是大法官的選拔不是單選一個人而是我們選擇的是對這個職務名器的重視選擇的是我們對一個全民認同的憲法價值因此大法官的人事案絕不能夠草率通過必須嚴格把關、寧缺勿濫否則將造成憲法災難以上謝謝"},{"start":545.051,"end":545.514,"text":"好,謝謝翁曉玲"}]}},{"id":"157717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157717","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbf526c2b86e68930a2741a476080f8483257d4eed3d4aeff09821e187a9f3e41c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:24:28 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謝謝勞動力發展署代理署長陳世昌勞動福祉退休司副司長陳慧榮勞動條件及就業平等司副司長王金榮我們勞動部大家加油這一陣子大家辛苦了衛生福利部政府司長呂健德"},{"start":2470.47,"end":2486.839,"text":"社會及家庭署組長 呂育穎心理健康師專門委員 洪家基口腔健康師檢證記者 陳少卿長期照顧師專門委員 王林宇"},{"start":2498.226,"end":2526.018,"text":"護理及健康照護師科長蔡明翰國健署研究員黃巧文中央健康保險署參議員黃佩珊中央健康保險署衛務部現在正在風暴當中大家也辛苦了經濟部產業發展署署長楊志欽"},{"start":2530.861,"end":2539.611,"text":"商業發展署副組長熊立恆中小及新創企業署專門委員王思文國際貿易署科長鄭惠琳"},{"start":2550.179,"end":2574.988,"text":"產業技術師科長何彥慶金融監督管理委員會法律事務處處長林志憲教育部終身教育師副司長嚴寶月高等教育師專門委員郭嘉英技術及職業教育師專門委員陳育君"},{"start":2580.388,"end":2604.576,"text":"文化部中俄規劃師副司長陳怡靜社會發展部社會發展署副署長陳惠敏社會政府司科長林菊穗國家發展委員會社會發展處處長張富林"},{"start":2609.44,"end":2624.151,"text":"人力發展處專門委員柔玉梅國家科學及技術委員會生命科學研究發展處副處長涂鈞宇農業部農民輔導師副處長陳怡仁"},{"start":2633.79,"end":2646.16,"text":"農村發展及水土保持署科長羅光節交通部觀光署副署長周庭章公共運輸及監理師檢證記者王濟周你要寫什麼?"},{"start":2663.735,"end":2667.945,"text":"好 我們現在賴樂隆委員他要先詢問這是什麼"},{"start":2676.863,"end":2705.582,"text":"主席啦 各位我先進行會議詢問啦謝謝啦 會議詢問的這個是最優先的啦我想問一下啦 因為今天大概也可能看主席或請主秘回答一下今天其實立法院有在進行大法官的全院委員會啦那其實也在進行那樣程序那其實各個委員會其實都沒有開我可以請教一下主席跟主秘啦在這個程序上面今天來召開這樣的會議程序上有沒有問題那另外是他會不會影響到大家委員們的權益這是請主席跟主秘"},{"start":2706.303,"end":2715.281,"text":"答覆一下好不好因為其他委員會都沒有開啦那今天好像獨獨只有衛房跟經濟來聯席是不是請主秘回答或者請這個主席會議詢問"},{"start":2728.909,"end":2747.711,"text":"根據過去的案例,在前院委員會的時候還是有各個委員會在召開,那我們有在上禮拜也詢問了,詢問了我們院本部這邊還有詢問說可以不可以排,回答是可以,所以"},{"start":2748.792,"end":2759.139,"text":"法律上是OK但是有說沒有讓委員可以暢所欲言這可能會有一點影響以上報告"},{"start":2769.395,"end":2793.511,"text":"我再跟賴委員報告一下剛剛我有報告過就是說今天如果出委員會的話我們是會送政黨協商那我們各個黨還三個黨還要在政黨協商當然我不排除我們行政院會補送資料補送版本然後在政黨協商就一併討論我們不會直接送大院會在這裡跟大家報告"},{"start":2796.377,"end":2805.608,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄及刊登公報現在宣讀提案條文內容還有修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":2808.188,"end":2818.254,"text":"委員吳春城等42人擬具《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》案。第一條,為促使國家政策制定與產業發展能因應人口變遷所生的新社會與市場結構,翻轉銀髮海嘯轉為國家發展動力,降低年輕世代負擔,實現世代經濟循環目標,維護壯世代人權與尊嚴,創造跨鄰共榮,韌性永續之目標,特制定本法。第二條,本法用詞定義如下,一,壯世代,指55歲以上之國民,二,壯世代政策,"},{"start":2838.126,"end":2846.029,"text":"指促進社會與個人重新認知高齡者實為高壽者並協助壯世代持續成為生產者、消費者提升壯世代於各領域生活品質並降低社會福利負擔之政策方針及計劃。三、壯世代產業指活化壯世代資產、發展長壽經濟協助壯世代持續成為生產者、消費者之各行業所為技術、產品、服務、知識或措施之開發、生產、使用、銷售、投資等經濟行為"},{"start":2865.517,"end":2893.032,"text":"4.壯世代就業,指消除社會與個人對壯世代之就業歧視,並以壯世代具工作能力及就業意願者為對象,協助續留職場或再回職場之勞動行為。第3條,行政院應設壯世代政策辦公室統籌整合各目的事業主管機關設壯世代之權責,共同推動壯世代政策。壯世代政策辦公室設置召集人一人由行政院院長兼任,委員若干人由行政院院長就政務委員,有關機關首長,"},{"start":2895.214,"end":2913.616,"text":"據壯世代發展經驗之專家學者及壯世代民間代表派遣或聘兼之,壯世代政策辦公室每年應制定國家年度壯世代政策與產業發展計畫,並審核計畫目標、預算及成效。壯世代政策辦公室推動之壯世代政策事務應包含但不限於壯世代經濟發展"},{"start":2914.577,"end":2927.153,"text":"金融、生態系、科技發展、學術及產業研究、就業環境、健康生活與環境、教育體制、數位落差彌平、消費、文化、行促等政策面向。政府應積極推動、輔助壯世代產業之發展,並結合財稅及金融制度、土地及建築物活用。"},{"start":2934.161,"end":2950.184,"text":"及建物活用提供壯世代產業發展政策培植新創及產業鏈促成長壽經濟之發展。第5條政府應建立超高齡社會金融行動方案與指標提供相關金融商品或投資鼓勵措施建構壯世代金融生態系"},{"start":2950.925,"end":2969.847,"text":"同時積極提供壯世代普及公正的金融教育,強化金融勢能,促進財富公平與安全。政府應促成公司部門與學術機構合作,增進壯世代研究資源應用,並成立或指定壯世代生活需求長期性、應用性、基礎性之調查研究專責單位。"},{"start":2971.209,"end":2979.579,"text":"第7條政府應積極推動壯世代就業建立合宜媒合執培訓機制在尊重及反歧視原則下創造壯世代適性就業環境並積極推動彈性工作高齡友善職場指標與退休準備第8條政府應從預防老化觀點"},{"start":2988.55,"end":3000.893,"text":"藉醫療投資、增進智慧精準醫療以維護壯世代身心健康,並就預防保健、心理衛生、醫療復健與連續性照護之規劃,推動及監督等事項保障壯世代權益。政府應與大學合作,整合相關教學資源、培訓機構或團體,協助建立以行速良好環境、宣傳推廣原夢及滿足第三人生需求之理念,"},{"start":3014.717,"end":3042.811,"text":"普及終身學習之目的壯世代教育。第10條政府應協助壯世代積極參與數位社會創造數位平權環境以使壯世代智慧資產有效貢獻社會。第11條政府應建立壯世代新形象藉由合一機制尊重維護世代共存共融之新文化並積極建立相關文化產業。第12條政府應推動壯世代觀光發展建立壯世代旅遊行銷品牌媒合在地組織與產業界"},{"start":3044.272,"end":3050.56,"text":"鼓勵壯世代提出或參與觀光旅遊相關提案,促成壯世代產業對優質壯世代旅遊規劃之共識。第13條政府應針對壯世代農民或跨域從農者提升農業技術及農業經營,結合青壯年留農或返農,"},{"start":3062.495,"end":3065.919,"text":"增加農業及農村經濟產值,並建立壯世代農民與在地親農交流及服務平台機制,促進農村再生與農業永續發展。第14條鼓勵壯世代參與地方創生,透過媒合機制建立壯世代"},{"start":3079.065,"end":3091.538,"text":"在地團體創新組織合作提供技術及知識等投入地方創新事業創造地方共好發展第15條政府應建立壯世代國家資料庫並每年統計並公布健康預期壽命前項之壯世代國家資料庫應建立資訊系統及共享平台會診公司部門及學術機構之資訊"},{"start":3100.367,"end":3114.193,"text":"善加運用,以促進壯世代政策產業就業之研究與法規嚴定。第16條各級政府應以首長或其指定之人為召集人,邀集相關學者、專家、民間機構、團體代表及壯世代族群代表,並其召開會議或論壇、協調、諮詢、審議及規劃推動與其主管業務相關之壯世代政策。"},{"start":3122.816,"end":3148.305,"text":"各級政府應鼓勵企業及社會團體善盡社會責任,共同推動壯世代政策。第17條政府應寬列壯世代事務預算,採取必要措施,合理分配及運用,確保經費符合政策所需。政府應依實際需要合理分配,益助資源補助表彰相關學術機構、產業界、民間團體與個人等,共同推動壯世代政策及措施。"},{"start":3149.005,"end":3167.405,"text":"中央政府得設立壯世代發展基金,辦理壯世代政策發展相關事項。第18條,政府應以本法施行後一年內發布國家壯世代人口政策白皮書,並每四年依其績效及國內外情勢發展定期檢討修正之。各級政府應配合國家壯世代人口政策白皮書,"},{"start":3168.385,"end":3192.797,"text":"檢討所主管之政策與行政措施,又不符其規定者,應定定修正其相關政策及行政措施,並推動執行。第19條,各級政府應因應壯世代事務需求充實相關人力,並建立人員專業資格制度,辦理人員教育訓練提升工作品質。中央壯世代專責機關及各目的事業主管機關得依壯世代事務之需要,建立其專業人員之資格,"},{"start":3194.879,"end":3220.658,"text":"認證登錄訓練及督導管理制度。第二十條本法施行後兩年內,各級政府應依本法之規定檢討所主管之法規,有不符合本法規定者,應制、訂定、修正或廢止相關法規。前項法規制、訂定、修正或廢止前,由行政院會同中央目的事業主管機關依本法規定解釋適用之。第二十一條本法自公佈日施行"},{"start":3222.482,"end":3243.867,"text":"繼續宣讀修正動議第一案第4條第二項前項之財稅及金融制度政府應提供相關金融商品或投資鼓勵措施建構壯世代金融生態系同時積極提供壯世代普及公正的金融教育強化金融世人促進財富公平與安全"},{"start":3244.907,"end":3264.861,"text":"政府應基於第一項之壯世代產業發展,積極推動壯世代就業,建立合營媒合及培訓機制,在尊重及反歧視原則下,創造壯世代適性就業環境,並積極推動彈性工作,高齡友善職場指標與退休準備。第5條刪除"},{"start":3267.145,"end":3281.283,"text":"第5條第2項修正為前項之研究專責單位因建立《壯世代國家資料庫及資訊系統共享平台》促成公司部門及學術機構之合作"},{"start":3282.364,"end":3297.325,"text":"以促進壯世代政策產業就業之研究與法規嚴定第7條刪除第6條修正為政府應從壯世代作為國家發展動力之觀點藉醫療投資增進智慧"},{"start":3299.628,"end":3314.428,"text":"精準醫療以維護壯世代身心健康並就涉及壯世代政策之預防、保健、心理衛生、醫療、復健與連續性照護進行規劃、推動及監督等事項。第7條第一項"},{"start":3316.141,"end":3337.754,"text":"政府應建立壯世代新形象,藉由合一機制尊重,創造數位平權環境,維護世代共存共榮之新文化,並積極建立相關文化產業及智慧資產。第二項第二句修正為政府應基於世代共存共榮之新文化"},{"start":3339.653,"end":3348.777,"text":"第10條刪除、第11條刪除、第8條、第2項修正為針列前項之在地組織與產業為農業相關者政府應針對壯世代農民或跨域從農者提升農業技術及農業經營"},{"start":3358.561,"end":3372.945,"text":"結合青鑽聯、流農或返農,增加農業及農村經濟產值,並建立鑽世代農民與在地青農交流及服務平台機制,促進農村再生與農業永續發展。"},{"start":3375.273,"end":3398.17,"text":"第一項之在地組織與產業為地方創生相關者,鼓勵壯世代參與地方創生,透過媒合機制建立壯世代與在地團體創生組織合作,提供技術及知識等投入地方創生事業,創造地方共好發展。第13條刪除,第14條刪除。"},{"start":3401.738,"end":3426.143,"text":"第15條刪除提案人委員蘇清泉、楊瓊英、張祺凱、陳昭芝、徒權吉、陳金輝、吳春城、傅坤祺第二案第一條實現世代經濟循環目標修正為實現世代資源共享目標提案人委員陳金輝、連署人廖偉祥、蘇清泉宣讀完畢"},{"start":3436.702,"end":3451.487,"text":"我們現在進行《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》主條審查。每條條文先請行政單位說明,接著請委員表示意見。我們請法案的名稱開始討論。"},{"start":3461.461,"end":3483.148,"text":"我先問一下好不好 因為其實從名稱開始到前面幾個條文其實一直都會牽扯到壯世代這件事情那我第一個想要詢問的請問包括看提案委員或是請問行政機關都可以一起說明就是壯世代什麼樣認定是壯世代那現在我看他的定義在第二條寫的是55歲以上的國民"},{"start":3483.948,"end":3511.256,"text":"那如果照這樣的定義的話,他有可能到,我們現在都希望讓大家開心吃百日,有的人吃到百日也叫壯世代嗎?100歲也是壯世代,110歲也叫壯世代,120也叫壯世代就是說這個部分的定義的部分,是不是請包括提案員或者提案行政機關能不能也提出一些說明好不好?第二個我想請教的是,看起來很多都是一些比較宣示性或者原則性,應該怎麼樣應該怎麼樣應該怎麼樣"},{"start":3513.797,"end":3538.816,"text":"但是他又在最後面又提到政府在兩年內要依相關的規定來檢討所有的法規不符本法規的命令要來修訂或廢止那其實我並不是那麼了解因為看起來裡面都是鼓勵性質或者是這個宣誓性質的那有哪一個會特定去違反到相關的法規我是不是也請教一下行政部門的意見好不好這兩個問題請教一下"},{"start":3543.363,"end":3562.611,"text":"我先補充介紹我們到場的委員黃秀安召委林業勤委員王振旭委員邱盈瑩委員賴樂榮委員請行政官員先報告"},{"start":3577.151,"end":3594.292,"text":"主席以及各位委員 大家早安我在這邊我想先做兩點說明 誠如剛剛賴慧蓉所說的我想現在目前就整個這一個定義上來說這一個出現三個問題第一個就是您剛剛所說的年齡上的問題"},{"start":3596.414,"end":3613.786,"text":"國際就整個聯合國對於所謂高齡者是65歲這是國際International Standard第二個就整個所謂中高齡國際勞工組織的明確定義就是45所以45跟65這是全世界International的那現在有一個所謂的55這個50或55這個恐怕在國際到目前為止恐怕"},{"start":3618.309,"end":3618.469,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3644.196,"end":3669.571,"text":"在這裡面其實內容很多事實上是屬於遜色性而且草案的對象太過廣泛條文都是原則性跟概念性的描述對於受規範的民眾難以由條文來理解具體的內容第三點剛剛委員及有提到其實在這裡面我們一般來說呢其實立法體力恐怕也有問題因為它的內容涵蓋了基本法、作用法以及組織法"},{"start":3671.032,"end":3693.798,"text":"與基本法不涵蓋行政作用條文以及行政作用法不訂定行政組織這一立法原則基本上都通例不符而且最重要的其實事實上我們的任何的法律制定其實事實上牽涉到民眾的他的整個權利義務相關的規定那你一個不確定的一個法律概念我想可能確實是會有問題而且同時最重要的我們現在目前行政院其實已經有高齡社會白皮書"},{"start":3694.718,"end":3695.439,"text":"長東部要不要補充說明"},{"start":3721.704,"end":3742.83,"text":"主席各位委員大家早有關於剛才賴委員所垂詢的事項衛福部正式已經做相關的說明了就勞動部夜館的部分我們其實是比較關切的是中高齡高齡者的就業促進我們在勞動部這邊夜館的部分有一個專法在推動當中那它對於中高齡和高齡者有一些明確的定義"},{"start":3743.69,"end":3772.452,"text":"中高齡者就是45歲以上到65歲中間高齡者就是65歲以上我們對於中高齡者或高齡者在就業促進方面我們大概都有些相應的支持和步驟方法在進行依照法令的規定在進行當中至於剛才所講到的壯世代各方面的意見之前公聽會大家有一些充分的討論學業專家有一些意見我們都儘表尊重謝謝好 謝謝次長 吳委員你要不要補充"},{"start":3780.45,"end":3785.621,"text":"謝謝各位出席的委員還有我們行政部各部會的出席"},{"start":3789.132,"end":3814.5,"text":"對於這一個今天是歷史性的一刻再過29天臺灣就進入超高齡社會了未來50年臺灣將減少近900萬人口整個的社會結構從以青少年青年為主的金字塔社會快速的轉向以高齡者為主的到金字塔型的社會"},{"start":3816.138,"end":3834.079,"text":"那過去50年臺灣快速的增加900萬人口我們習慣人口大紅利的時代但是到了2028年人口紅利就不見了所以這是一場天翻地覆的大革命如果我們今天還在爭辯舊思維未來我們必須為歷史負責"},{"start":3837.779,"end":3866.711,"text":"那關於名稱的問題關於名稱的問題這個要應付這個天翻地覆的社會結構我們現在都是從科技的技術創新高齡科技想要來解決這個問題卻沒有從文化、思想、制度、法規的創新來翻轉這龐大的高齡者這高齡者現在臥床平均8年所以呢"},{"start":3868.041,"end":3893.06,"text":"現在可以看的目前所用的措施是無法去阻擋這場所謂的引發大海嘯所以為什麼要稱為壯世代因為它的本質就是一場社會運動社會運動的第一件事就叫做證明你要給它一個正確的身份、正確的名稱所以目前我們稱高齡者"},{"start":3894.963,"end":3921.021,"text":"不外乎是老人、銀髮族、樂齡族如果大家用大數據去輸入這幾個名詞你可以看出來依附過來的都是負面相關的連結所以我們要不要改變一下對這一群人這造成我們社會嚴重的高齡歧視我們的政策還有產業為什麼都發展不起來這就是人設的錯誤"},{"start":3922.802,"end":3929.288,"text":"所有的新的事物都必須賦予新的意義是理所當然之事像AI"},{"start":3930.612,"end":3957.469,"text":"在之前沒有,當他出來的時候,大家排懼他嗎?外送專法以前沒有外送,那外送一出來不是需要一個新名詞來形容他嗎?接避者,接避者之前沒有問題,現在是不是要給他一個接避者的一個名稱呢?共享、經濟,以前沒有這種問題,出來的時候這樣的名詞我們要懷疑他嗎?這都不是新的名詞嗎?長照之前也是一個新的名詞,"},{"start":3958.45,"end":3972.571,"text":"當他出來的時候 大家懷疑他嗎 甚至連新北市 這個也是沒有多久之前才 以前叫台北縣所以呢 現在社會日新月異 所以創造新的名詞 並不足為奇"},{"start":3975.074,"end":4001.67,"text":"特別是根據國發會我們不要一直講說聯合國沒有怎麼樣然後臺灣國際沒有怎麼樣大家真的是不去看國發會所做的資料國發會所顯示的資料裡面臺灣的人口我講一個數據我們現在我們明年進入超高齡社會我們明年進入超高齡社會人口結構"},{"start":4005.902,"end":4007.295,"text":"人口 拍誰"},{"start":4011.497,"end":4030.285,"text":"就是人口結構當中我們現在要進入65%這個20%其實在世界各國當中還不算高很多歐洲國家都現在都已經到了25%左右的但是各位到了2070年我們的65歲上將佔人口的46%"},{"start":4036.311,"end":4059.491,"text":"日本那時候才佔35%各位可以想像我們會比日本很老老很多歐美各國到時候還28%我們已經46%了我們走在世界老化最嚴重的我們跟南韓並列為全世界最快速老化的國家"},{"start":4060.908,"end":4071.836,"text":"所以這個政策當中我們要尾隨國際在後面嗎?我們要領先各國,我們要有新的觀念,我們要有新的倡議以上的意見請大家支持,謝謝"},{"start":4076.594,"end":4093.24,"text":"主席,如果我們因為討論年紀的定義而一直僵持在目前這個狀態的話,覺得有點,有點,所以我是建議是不是就直接往下走,然後繼續討論?"},{"start":4103.434,"end":4115.281,"text":"陳昭志先生謝謝主席剛剛呂次長在談到這個定義不明、定義不清麻煩呂次長回家做功課在2024年2月17號勞動部自己推動的55Plus壯世代就業促進措施講得非常清楚"},{"start":4125.126,"end":4141.248,"text":"年滿55歲以上以及45歲以上依法退休者為適用對象如果大家要執著在定義的部分那請勞動部回去查自己曾經做的定義然後"},{"start":4144.073,"end":4161.225,"text":"不要再談年紀了你直接打臉許明春部長嘛理事長你沒有做功課喔請你們現在馬上Google2024年2月17號勞動部推動55Plus壯世代就業促進措施協助壯世代勞工重返職場謝謝主席"},{"start":4171.323,"end":4191.531,"text":"主席各位我還是要再提醒一下因為其實立法院所有的法每個出去都要很嚴謹那我建議因為立出來的法都代表著立法院的品質那我認為前面的部分花一點時間把這些釐清清楚然後也讓官員能夠一起把疫情進來我認為是很值得的那因為從題目到前面幾條幾乎都是一樣的前面這個解決了後面其實很快的"},{"start":4192.472,"end":4209.472,"text":"我還是要呼應跟提醒的就是說我認為壯世代如果要定義那要想辦法至少要跟國際能夠接軌的上同時間也要想清楚把這個定義定清楚我認為其實是一個高的立法品質讓壯世代因為如果單就現在這個草案上寫55歲以上我覺得還是"},{"start":4211.414,"end":4237.025,"text":"稍微太寬了一點廣了一點 要再訂得更清楚一點那我看到這個法其實我的感覺主要是為了要協助壯世代的一些就業壯世代的一些產業發展甚至壯世代的一些政策上面等等那我認為相關部門也可以再說得更清楚既有的政策上能不能達到這個目的還是說需要另外訂這個法才能夠達成如果既有的法可以達成的話就不一定要跌床駕屋再來訂出這個法"},{"start":4238.686,"end":4261.088,"text":"那這個部分我覺得待會也可以再請行政部門做更詳細的說明那另外是這個法的部分它叫做促進法但是從看起來它帶有相當高的基本法的味道有些因怎麼作為而且是有一些因的作為同時間這第三條它又帶有組織法的味道有設置辦公室有院長兼任然後有若干人"},{"start":4261.508,"end":4276.844,"text":"那這些人要做什麼事情 這個我覺得恐怕都要把它定得更清楚不要產生了跌床駕屋或者產生有些人設定的位置但是他的職務或者他的任務其實並不明確的我覺得反而會造成一些資源的一些配置上的可惜"},{"start":4277.965,"end":4293.92,"text":"另外還有就是在包括第17條的部分裡面有提到了包括寬列壯世代一些事務的預算的經費那當你要去寬列經費的時候恐怕就要更清楚的去訂清楚那到底你要去處理的是什麼事項"},{"start":4294.94,"end":4317.385,"text":"我認為這個部分都應該在委員會內更好好的討論把它定清楚然後再到草椅協商或再到院會去我認為這個立法品質會來得比較高包括裡面甚至有提到17條的第二項有提到政府應該依照實際的合理的分配甚至挹注補助到民間團體等等那這個恐怕都不需要更清楚的界定不然將來"},{"start":4319.105,"end":4342.694,"text":"中央執政誰執政恐怕有很大的空間可以去做這件事情那我認為這個對於國家的整個資源的配置不見得是好事每一黨都可能當執政黨但是有可能這個資源配置上面有可能會有很大的操作空間我認為這個都應該再更嚴謹一點另外他還有一個叫做德設立壯世代的發展基金德設立當然可能設也可能不設但是設了之後"},{"start":4343.274,"end":4369.455,"text":"他要做什麼使用?能夠扮演什麼樣的角色?我認為都應該把他定的再更清楚一點這個才能夠讓整個這個法能夠達到一個好的目的那我還是要再回來強調如果各行政部門本來就可以做的事情那說明清楚那到底要不要立這個法就可以充分的討論那另外如果真的要立一定要把那個範圍跟職責跟權益相關的目的確認清楚才能達到這個法"},{"start":4370.536,"end":4385.381,"text":"我們還是要再次強調這個法會是在第11屆的立委萬一完成了三讀的話會是從這邊出去這都留下歷史紀錄我們希望這個法是一個嚴謹而具有必要性而必備性的一個法律再三的跟委員跟主席們說明"},{"start":4401.335,"end":4415.635,"text":"主席大家好我想今天討論這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這樣的一個草案我要先問政府單位你們今天是要針對主條"},{"start":4417.057,"end":4439.655,"text":"提出你們的修法意見還是你們是反對所以你們都沒有備案比如說名稱你們覺得應該要修比較好你們若對於壯世代這個年齡55歲有意見那你們到底是贊成和平到中高齡從45歲為起點還是什麼我比較希望是這樣的討論可能才會有實質的成效要不然大家其實是沒有對焦就是"},{"start":4442.677,"end":4452.421,"text":"剛剛聽了兩位次長看起來是好像沒有贊成這個法所以也沒有準備這個具體的名稱到底要怎麼修那因為其實在委員會已經開過公聽會然後也詢答過今天就是主條我覺得這個基本上大家態度要拿出來如果你們有負案你們對名稱有意見譬如說壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案你們對這個名稱有疑慮你們建議應該要怎麼樣修正或者是你要保留"},{"start":4471.149,"end":4475.409,"text":"我覺得這樣的一個討論今天才會有進度要不然大家都不對焦啊"},{"start":4476.872,"end":4477.132,"text":"吳春城委員"},{"start":4507.693,"end":4529.111,"text":"這一個高齡化世代的來臨的確觀念是要翻轉所以我個人是很贊成就是應該要用一個發展性的一個觀點我們來看待這樣的法案那我也同意剛剛賴瑞恩委員講的就是說這個法我們可能要有從一個基本法的概念我們是去翻轉各部會應該要做什麼樣的調整應該要進到什麼樣的責任"},{"start":4532.034,"end":4548.535,"text":"的確修法的過程也應該要嚴謹所以我就很納悶今天為什麼沒有法務部的代表修法也應該要嚴謹所有的法律用語定義它可能必須是明確的因為畢竟是立法院產出來的法案"},{"start":4549.232,"end":4562.545,"text":"所以這兩者應該都是要兼顧今天聯合報或是社論都還在指出我們現在面對高齡社會這一些失能的家庭然後居福源不夠的問題這個都是已經到了後端"},{"start":4565.388,"end":4569.492,"text":"我們開始去處理問題但是這個法案我個人認為如果從一個更前端從一個怎麼樣進入到這樣的一個高齡從前面就讓他可以社會參與我們各項的政策用一個發展性的觀點然後讓我們的高齡人力可以成為我們社會的這個生產力而不會完全是負擔這個的確是我們應該要超前部署我們應該要這樣的思維"},{"start":4590.349,"end":4591.51,"text":"各部會應該去思考"},{"start":4606.261,"end":4628.597,"text":"吳委員 我想他就不會提出這樣的一個草案 如果都有 那或許待會市長也可以說 比如說你有的是什麼 就講出來就是已經在做的是什麼 因為我覺得今天吳委員提出來這個版本他最大的注意是 他提到各個領域應該做什麼 而且是用一個比較是發展性的觀點來看待我們面臨這個超高齡社會這樣的一個問題"},{"start":4631.263,"end":4631.383,"text":"主席"},{"start":4649.963,"end":4650.043,"text":"聶偉強委員請發言"},{"start":4674.844,"end":4696.788,"text":"其實我也是要呼應一下王委員講的其實究竟我們行政部門到底是什麼態度那我想要說的是再從頭來重申有幾個主要的壯世代希望達到的觀點第一個是希望促進社會參與跟經濟貢獻所以這個壯世代法案是在促進中高齡人口的社會參與跟經濟貢獻不僅是要解決一些年金財務的問題還要激發這一代人的潛能讓他們繼續為我們的社會做出貢獻"},{"start":4702.589,"end":4703.169,"text":"臺灣即將進入超高齡化的社會"},{"start":4732.449,"end":4753.438,"text":"各自一千多億,比如少子化辦公室一千多億,那這個超高齡的相關的照護偵測也是一千多億,可是究竟成效如何,我想行政部門自己數字都很清楚吧,不然我們之前在勞動部這個常常在答詢的時候也不會說這怎麼消除中高齡者的歧視,讓他們重新投入職場等等的問題。"},{"start":4754.478,"end":4771.008,"text":"所以我想他是一個我想全球也在面對那事實上你說跟國際接軌嗎其實國際上面大家也都在面對這個問題那有沒有很好的解方也不知道目前也沒看到因為如果有很好我們可以直接抄襲複製來推行就可以解決"},{"start":4771.608,"end":4771.628,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":4791.643,"end":4801.991,"text":"3.消除年齡歧視法案的推行是有助於消除職場中的年齡歧視,讓中高齡者可以創造更好的就業環境,這對於提升勞動參與和促進社會公平也有重要意義。"},{"start":4806.474,"end":4829.474,"text":"那第4個剛剛也有討論到所謂疊床架屋的問題其實整合現有的政策雖然有意見認為法案可能跟一些法律有重疊但我想壯世代法案可以作為一個整合性的框架協調各部會的政策反而有機會避免資源浪費和政策碎片化為什麼這樣講剛剛我們陳昭志委員有提到過去勞動部其實有在推動55plus的這個這個就業這個壯世代就業的相關的活動"},{"start":4833.437,"end":4850.052,"text":"相關的推廣所以事實上這個問題應該是一個跨部會的問題反而應該可以用一個發展性的政策來讓大家可以共同的往同一個目標前進我想這個大家都不會否認大家都需要解決這個少子化和這個超高齡社會帶來對社會的衝擊"},{"start":4852.114,"end":4874.761,"text":"第5個長期政策規劃,因為壯世代法案希望是提供一個長期的政策規劃,我想這主要是要應對未來人口結構的變化跟社會發展要有前瞻性的意義,要能夠引導政府跟社會資源有效的配置。所以我想以上五點的主要在壯世代可能帶來的效應上面,那我想"},{"start":4875.581,"end":4883.564,"text":"重點就是說是不是應該進一步的來討論每一條行政部門有什麼意見這樣比較有實質性的推動那以上謝謝"},{"start":4901.967,"end":4905.989,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛賴瑞榮委員他說要接軌國際所以他對於55歲這個定義這個壯世代定義是有意見的他認為這樣子是沒有接軌國際那我想請教的是賴瑞榮委員你現在是藉機打臉一樣想爭取民進黨推派選高雄市長的許民春前部長嗎"},{"start":4925.733,"end":4946.112,"text":"我剛剛已經說了,許部長在擔任部長的時候,勞動部就推出了55個plus,55plus壯世代就業促進措施,就明確的定義,那現在內委員是要指責許明春前部長他沒有接軌國際嗎?互相爭取高雄市長我想是好事,但是請不要把自己黨內內部的內鬥帶到衛環委員會來,謝謝"},{"start":4952.994,"end":4955.879,"text":"邱銀委員．續王振旭委員"},{"start":4964.096,"end":4987.634,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想第一個我還是不知道陳昭芝委員剛剛在講什麼這個這跟許民春部長有什麼關係然後這跟民進黨的選舉也沒有關係喔把民進黨選舉帶到衛環委員會來是您不是賴瑞榮第二個我想還是要請教一下我一直對於所謂的壯世代政策跟產業發展促進法的立法目的跟"},{"start":4988.234,"end":5013.195,"text":"基準其實是不太理解的就是說我們可以提到有一個壯世代我想如果依照現在這個定義我很快就會進入壯世代可是等到我可能如果我能夠活到90歲的話我還可以叫自己壯世代的我覺得會有點不好意思就像我20歲的時候被大家叫漂亮寶貝現在50幾歲你們叫我漂亮寶貝我都會覺得不好意思是一樣的道理"},{"start":5014.216,"end":5038.125,"text":"那第三個我想看一下這個條文比如說這個條文第三條就要求要成立一個壯世代政策辦公室那過去行政院有很多各個不同向下的政策辦公室都會被在野黨指責這個是黑機關、跌床架屋那現在我們是明定在法裡面就要求行政院要設一個壯世代辦公室"},{"start":5039.245,"end":5042.927,"text":"政府要積極推動、輔助壯世代產業的發展,結合財稅、金融制度等等。所以如果依照第4條的這個寫法的話,我想未來我們可能還會有一條叫做壯世代經濟發展條例。"},{"start":5061.357,"end":5062.859,"text":"第5條建立超高齡社會金融行動方案指標"},{"start":5076.796,"end":5093.271,"text":"我其實是不太懂整個立基點到底是要談什麼東西如果他只是一個宣誓性的動作但是所以那我覺得可以不用再特別立一個所謂的壯世代法案應該是讓行政部門在各個"},{"start":5094.091,"end":5094.711,"text":"委員吳春城等42人擬具"},{"start":5122.533,"end":5148.499,"text":"這個未來都還需要有執法的配合比如說你要有公司部門的學術機構要成立這個專責單位那這個專責單位要在哪裡個像安得在哪一個單位底下那你一定還要有執法去做配合第5條超高齡的金融行動方案一定也要有執法去做配合所以你現在立的這些法你剛剛講說不會影響到其他的相關的規定我其實是看不太出來"},{"start":5149.119,"end":5149.499,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":5187.892,"end":5208.86,"text":"謝謝主席來做今天會議的討論我真的很佩服吳春城吳委員這本書我真的看了好幾次感受很多我覺得在精神上在理念上真的非常非常的贊同因為我在這個年紀"},{"start":5210.541,"end":5210.861,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5232.822,"end":5235.183,"text":"彼此世代之間做更好的交流。"},{"start":5260.214,"end":5272.901,"text":"因為我們知道第二條現在是把壯世代定於55歲以上這個年齡看起來是也能夠滿符合這個世代的一個進入到這個年齡的過程不過這個他剛才說是臃腫的世代"},{"start":5275.622,"end":5295.843,"text":"萬一他身體違和怎麼辦?如果因為我長期在照顧這些癌症病人,還有在接觸臨床過程當中,我想所有人也是一樣喔,在年紀這麼長之後,他的身體可能各方面就會出現不如我們每一個人對自己身體的期待,這就是為什麼要稱作壯世代。"},{"start":5296.523,"end":5321.379,"text":"好像有一點辛苦啦因為我已經受到相當的影響或者是他有一些身體上或者是他本身是寒病到這個年紀以後事實上失明的機會就高很多所以如果在年齡層我們只是定義55歲以上然後用年輕年紀大沒有去關係到他的這個身體的不管是身體的"},{"start":5322.339,"end":5322.519,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5337.975,"end":5361.662,"text":"如何能夠讓產業發展可是當他這個身體老化的時候帶來的影響當然就會很大那在第8條裡面要從預防老化的觀點那如果我們壯世代來預防老化是OK的不過他如果已經是身體不好這個就不是預防老化的問題而是他直接需要接受整個醫療或者是整個社會照顧的問題所以我們將來在討論的時候那這邊如何能夠"},{"start":5365.203,"end":5383.736,"text":"有效的去把這個第8條也做一些比較好的一些規範另外第15條因為我們希望在這個法案裡面政府要建立壯世代國家資料庫並每一年統計並公佈健康預期壽命"},{"start":5386.578,"end":5396.267,"text":"這個真的是對台灣的民眾有非常重要的需求不管達到健康台灣或者是相關的部分這些數據都一定要建立好"},{"start":5397.011,"end":5417.307,"text":"那如果我們根據壯世代的需求來建立這樣的治療室那如果國家都已經有適當的治療庫那需不需要在這個法案裡面再特別的去強調它那我等一下也麻煩這個主管機關能不能針對這個部分因為我們知道其實我們台灣民眾的不健康理念真的是"},{"start":5419.142,"end":5444.277,"text":"臺在很不好的地方因為我們平均人命是80歲有十分之一的生命是屬於不健康人命我們本來以為新加坡是很讓我們值得學習的不健康人命可以達到很好的目標的地方那前兩天新加坡的一個醫師來臺灣做相關的報告跟演講他們說新加坡也是一樣他們不健康人命也將近10年"},{"start":5445.958,"end":5472.523,"text":"聽了是有一點不是說這樣啦起碼好像這個都是共同的問題那如果這是共同的問題的話那我們在這個第15條這個部分未來如何能夠跟現在現有的國家的資料庫做銜接而不是因為有了這個壯世代的需求而去另外做這個資料庫的處理這個我想這個細節的部分在討論的時候也希望都能夠有機會"},{"start":5473.624,"end":5476.628,"text":"來做更多的一些想法上面的處理以上"},{"start":5493.363,"end":5516.545,"text":"謝謝主席,那我就今天的這個法案的第一條,其實我看了之後我不知道說這個法的主責單位是誰,今天這個行政單位也來了這麼多人,那這個法的主責單位到底是誰?到底是衛福部或者是勞動部,或者是更高層級行政院這邊?"},{"start":5519.066,"end":5529.03,"text":"主責單位到底是誰,也不是那麼明確。我看了所有的法條,宣誓性成分比較大。我不知道衛福部跟勞動部應該原本就中高齡或高齡"},{"start":5543.175,"end":5543.536,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":5563.078,"end":5581.146,"text":"後面這個第20條有說本法施行後兩年內各級政府應依本法之規定檢討所主管之法規有不符合本法規定者應制定修正或廢止相關法規所以這個牽涉的很廣所以我覺得這個應該要好好的去"},{"start":5587.909,"end":5588.069,"text":"衛福部勞動部"},{"start":5613.383,"end":5630.515,"text":"主責單位你們就要去統籌嘛吼那另外就是說這個每一條每一條其實我看了每一條也都很有道理啊也都很有道理問題是如果這個要怎麼做"},{"start":5631.616,"end":5633.599,"text":"政府應建立超高齡社會金融行動方案與指標"},{"start":5647.879,"end":5674.256,"text":"那第6條就是政府應促成公司部門還有學術機構的合作而增進壯世代研究資源應用那其實這個部分應該我覺得這個行政部門也許這個教育部或其他單位是不是已經有這樣或者是勞動部也有這樣的一個這個在職進修啊或者是什麼樣的一個一個"},{"start":5675.197,"end":5675.217,"text":"陳事長"},{"start":5690.553,"end":5704.951,"text":"謝謝各位委員的指教我請代表勞動部說明以下各點第一個部分就是其實針對中高齡高齡者就是45歲到65歲或65歲以上其實大院有通過"},{"start":5705.993,"end":5723.636,"text":"109年有通過《中高齡及高齡者就業促進法》,勞動部依照這個法令也在執行當中吳委員過去對於壯世代這邊給勞動部很多的指教,所以我們也發現55歲以上有一些過早退出勞動市場確實是相對的是可惜的"},{"start":5724.256,"end":5753.451,"text":"我們在中高齡和高齡者就業促進法大院也通過了相關修正的條文在12月4日就業實施包括要擬定3年的就業計畫包括要每2年推出職場指引包括要針對符合退休年齡的部分提供調試退休準備或再就業等等所以勞動部在這部分針對壯世代這部分很佩服吳委員的意見我們也相應的都做了很多的支持"},{"start":5754.392,"end":5767.486,"text":"這部分因為在勞動部的夜館他一定是要有就業能力跟就業意願所以我們沒有天花板的問題我們對年齡歧視有做了一些相應的處理那在這個案子裡面"},{"start":5768.848,"end":5783.184,"text":"就涉及勞動部的條文只有一條那現在整併成一項那看起來跟我們的就業中高齡及高齡者就業促進法的方向是一致的所以我們其實是沒有特別的意見"},{"start":5783.865,"end":5811.369,"text":"我們未來在處理方向包括在職者的穩定就業包括失業者的重返職場包括退休者的再就業以致於擴大相關的服務網絡開發勞動力這部分我們既有的依照相關的法規都會持續去進行這第一點做說明那第二點的部分就是行政院整體有社會福利推動委員會那過去也有修正高齡社會白皮書也有因應超高齡社會的對策方案"},{"start":5812.85,"end":5835.781,"text":"應吳委員的一個指教,院長也請陳時中、陳政委督導,我們勞動部也彙整了14個部會、76項的措施,有一個壯世代社會參與的促進就業方案,所以相關的部份行政部門都有在積極處理當中,那確實是一個跨"},{"start":5836.641,"end":5838.601,"text":"這部分大概簡單跟各位委員做報告,謝謝"},{"start":5867.944,"end":5870.246,"text":"理事長要不要補充OK感謝主席以及委員的垂詢那我想我在這邊大概衛福部有三個重點第一個就是剛剛我想王詠敏王委員還有很多委員也基本上大概很關心我們有沒有跌床架屋的問題那我跟各位報告"},{"start":5893.271,"end":5893.471,"text":"本會議的主席"},{"start":5919.349,"end":5941.791,"text":"第一是剛剛我想陳市長也代表勞動部有報告的中高齡以及高齡者就業促進法我再強調一次中高齡是45歲高齡者是65這是International Standard第二個經濟部有推動中小企業發展條例第三衛福部負責老人福利法以及長期照顧服務法"},{"start":5942.552,"end":5965.061,"text":"以及《全民健康保險法》還有《營養及健康飲食促進法》還有《精神衛生法》教育部則是負責《中生學習法》還有這個經濟部推動除了中考企業發展條例之外其實很多也針對我們剛剛這一個這個所謂的一般所謂的定力的壯世代有很多很多相當產業推動的一個方案那麼從重複規範的話確實"},{"start":5967.222,"end":5967.382,"text":"主席"},{"start":5985.061,"end":6009.547,"text":"我想我也個人非常非常欽佩這一個吳春城委員他所推動的這一個這個壯世代的這個運動但是而且這個部分確實也是我們共同大家非常關心有關於超高齡社會的問題但是現在有問題倡議是一回事具體立法因為這裡面會牽涉到有關於對於人民權利義務的相關的問題那我想整個立法上面務必"},{"start":6009.867,"end":6009.987,"text":"以上,謝謝"},{"start":6040.161,"end":6040.703,"text":"謝謝次長 蘇勇副處長你要補充一下"},{"start":6051.062,"end":6078.51,"text":"主席 各位委員我想再做一個 兩個市長剛才有說明我再做一個補充第一個因應明年就要進入超高齡社會所以行政院在110年跟111年也分別訂定了這個高齡社會白皮書還有這個因應超高齡社會的對策方案然後對於這個壯世代這個議題的部分行政院事實上是相當重視的所以"},{"start":6079.73,"end":6106.425,"text":"委員長也指示了深思中政委也召開了3次的會議那在11月12號院長主持的社會福利推動委員會也通過了勞動部剛才所提的會整的14個部會所提的這個壯世代的社會參與促進方案所以在整體的政策來講行政院事實上是對於整個高齡社會的部分已經有一個相當具體的一個對策方案在做處理"},{"start":6107.486,"end":6134.118,"text":"第二,已經有既定的政策方案在推的時候,在定義一個法例,恐怕要斟酌。因為法例的部分來講,剛才各位所提的部分,可能重點會在兩個部分。第一個,壯世代的定義。因為壯世代定義的部分來講,現在是用一個法例名詞定義,而且這個壯世代的部分在國際上是沒有定義的。"},{"start":6134.838,"end":6134.878,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":6152.972,"end":6153.412,"text":"中央行政機關組織基準法第5條第3項規定"},{"start":6177.264,"end":6201.114,"text":"不得以作用法或其他法規規定這個機關的組織明顯的這個草案第3條的部分跟這個法律是有違背的第二個部分來講對整個高齡社會的部分的行政政策的部分來講已經由院長主持的社會福利推動委員會那在下設院長指示的政務委員有一個專案小組也做了一個應用處理現在在"},{"start":6202.074,"end":6202.474,"text":"再請廖維祥委員發言"},{"start":6229.212,"end":6256.012,"text":"我只是簡單表達一下剛剛邱盈盈委員有說那個她現在覺得被叫這個漂亮寶貝很奇怪但是我覺得對我來講我可以叫她漂亮姐姐所以不會很奇怪那另外就是其實剛剛大家在討論的都有針對裡面的一條一條去做討論和去做合理不合理所以我認為現在是不是還是應該實質的進入逐條的去看每一條到底哪裡有問題大家可以提出來好好討論對不對好謝謝"},{"start":6258.899,"end":6260.4,"text":"好你也請委員我想公聽會也開過了那一樣都有幾個問題到底真的是誰是主責今天真的各部會都來了那到底是要行政院還是誰這是我第一個第二個"},{"start":6288.43,"end":6316.033,"text":"我一直在查相關的訊息因為我本來在學校就教所謂的在社工也有家庭人類學裡邊講到人類發展那我們嘗試去看有兒童發展有少年發展有所謂的青年發展也有所謂的中老年然後老年期所以我就查不到說我們有兒童福利法有少年福利法後來兒少合併"},{"start":6317.314,"end":6317.475,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6330.725,"end":6331.525,"text":"而通福利法、少年福利法"},{"start":6358.698,"end":6377.486,"text":"老人福利法現在多了一個壯世代那我們是不是也要來立個婦女或立個什麼就是我不知道去創這樣的名詞上的用意還有一個就是說用55歲到底有沒有有根有據尤其50後來我去看中高齡的發展裡邊50歲大概勢力上已經事實上是減少"},{"start":6383.14,"end":6392.383,"text":"這兩個事實上對我來講是叫我一直去賺錢然後一直去消費嗎那我本來如果事實上是可以好好休息的反而又變成叫我要做生產者又要做消費者這個我也不太理解"},{"start":6406.226,"end":6420.717,"text":"在法裏邊有蠻多的衝突的這是而且本來我們就有中高齡跟高齡者就業促進法如果你叫我要去工作那有啦有這個法啦而且它規定就是55歲以上那我當然就要問問我們的勞動部就是說如果今天這個法通過我有點疑慮的是到底這法裏邊"},{"start":6432.873,"end":6447.711,"text":"本來特別法就優先於普通法新法優於舊法所以如果這個法通過的話中高齡及高齡者的就業促進法以後是不是就應該會不會這樣子法律效果就會不會造成了除了本法第2條、第1項、第7條、第13條、第14條與中高齡就業"},{"start":6452.576,"end":6475.868,"text":"專法相似的部分適用是架空中高齡就業的相關規定嗎?所以我們為什麼一直前面在公聽會的時候就講跌床駕屋跌床駕屋好像似乎也沒有也沒有人去做這個回應那還是說要把直接那個勞動政策的這幾條通通都拿掉那本法內容就少掉20%不過要把這邊我們的壯世代的這個法拿掉的話"},{"start":6476.926,"end":6503.44,"text":"那我不知道勞動部到底有沒有什麼樣的一個建議剛剛我講說除了叫我們去生產以外又叫我們說要去消費那我就要來問消費的這樣子想問經濟部你怎麼去理解叫做壯世代產業因為我現在到現在讀完條文我還是沒有理解那個壯世代產業意指的是什麼還有什麼叫做長壽經濟"},{"start":6506.742,"end":6534.083,"text":"這又是意思是什麼因為法律如果定義不清楚的話通常去執行的人事實上是有困難的像這個產業創生到底這個力量是要來自市場的創意還是來自政府如果這個叫人家去創生創業如果55歲他經濟已經走到高峰要往下走的時候那你如果造成他的失敗的時候到底是叫政府負責嗎還是要誰"},{"start":6535.757,"end":6536.177,"text":"所以我就不太了解說"},{"start":6565.077,"end":6565.477,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":6594.039,"end":6594.259,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6610.05,"end":6630.192,"text":"45歲會不會比55歲更是壯世代可是這要定義55歲所以我才說一直認為說沒有學理根據的時候要我們硬要去定這樣子的一個法令的話那我們也很擔心在這邊同意的人會不會被後代笑還有這個壯世代的人員專業資格到底是什麼意思"},{"start":6630.772,"end":6631.133,"text":"菁姐再請鄭天才委員"},{"start":6664.988,"end":6681.835,"text":"謝謝委員的指導那經濟部這邊有3點來做報告第一點就是臺灣要進入超高齡的社會所以勞動力呢看起來是要有所補充那未來55歲以上的這一些我們現在定義叫壯世代的族群他可以是勞動力市場的一部分這是第一點"},{"start":6682.515,"end":6710.149,"text":"那第二點這個壯世代的這些55歲以上的族群相對的他的健康的狀況以及對休閒的注重我們都必須要來加以關心所以他所對應的健康醫療產業以及他的休閒這一部分呢都是可以來關注的這是第二點報告所以後續我們是可以利用智慧化的科技那鼓勵業者針對壯世代的族群相關的服務休閒產業等等的來做推廣"},{"start":6710.589,"end":6711.269,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":6746.008,"end":6772.822,"text":"主席、各位委員,我想這個提案人之所以會提這個法,絕對有他的一個非常重要的一個目的。剛才聽了這個我們行政部門的這個發言,尤其是我們衛福部的次長、政務次長,"},{"start":6774.546,"end":6801.072,"text":"這個法就是要立法所以才不要影響到人民的權益就是要透過法律的制定剛剛提到了幾個行政部門一直提到行政院已經訂了什麼方案行政院已經訂了什麼排比書這個都沒有法現在就是要立法讓你有所依據"},{"start":6802.708,"end":6829.529,"text":"才能夠不要影響到人民的權益這麼重要的事情你說我們已經有訂了方案還沒有法律的依據你說我們做了排批書訂了排批書沒有法律的依據我們現在立法給你們依據這是對的所以這個部分第一個什麼是叫壯世代"},{"start":6832.469,"end":6859.017,"text":"不是這個草案的第一個發明的啦勞動部在今年的2月就訂了什麼呢就訂了壯世代就業促進獎勵實施要點這裡面就有壯世代是幾歲以上就有啊就訂了等於我們今天討論這個法到底寫55歲是不是當大家可以討論是不是要"},{"start":6860.953,"end":6888.367,"text":"往下45歲以上可以討論而不是整個就否決所以這個勞動部就已經訂了壯世代沒有法律的依據我們透過法律給他明文規定什麼叫壯世代不是很好嗎對不對所以另外"},{"start":6890.025,"end":6918.401,"text":"講到辦公室這個沒有違反中央行政機關組織基準法中央行政機關組織基準法所明定的是針對機關機關現在不是這個只是辦公室現在設了很多辦公室啊也沒有法的依據啊我們現在立法授權給你依據不是更合法嗎"},{"start":6919.916,"end":6934.717,"text":"所以這個部分這個名稱法律的名稱大家可以討論如果從第一條到最後一條這樣看這個條文可能改為基本法"},{"start":6935.606,"end":6963.482,"text":"可能是比較適當的這是我的建議所以我認為這樣的一個法律的提出絕對有它的一個非常需要達成的一個如果我們從各條條文來看那我們怎麼樣讓這個條文能夠更符合我們目前台灣社會的一個需要我想只有這樣的一個建議以上"},{"start":6965.557,"end":6985.41,"text":"謝謝 謝謝鄭委員再一次的跟我們委員會報告齁那今天他這個有提出修正把21條已經容收為13條就是裡面有一些重疊的我本身也有意見的他們都協商之後都改了齁那第二個這個案子"},{"start":6987.515,"end":7012.464,"text":"出委員會之後會送政黨協商政黨協商我們會再請陳時中政治政務委員來作會作會跟行政委員會的想法跟版本都可以修改所以我們現在今天就來把主條唸第一個我們壯世代政策產業發展促進草案這個名稱有沒有意見"},{"start":7016.058,"end":7017.361,"text":"有意見嗎?有意見沒有?那我們就要保留啦那我們從第一條開始"},{"start":7043.464,"end":7051.12,"text":"第一條我們陳清威委員有修正齁修正他是跑到那裡去了"},{"start":7055.151,"end":7077.844,"text":"第一條他實現世代資源共享他改成世代經濟循環目標行政單位有沒有意見世代改成資源共享對不起念環了"},{"start":7084.471,"end":7086.893,"text":"經濟循環或資源共享。"},{"start":7115.913,"end":7116.073,"text":"那個...剛剛有..."},{"start":7137.865,"end":7139.607,"text":"請教吳委員經濟循環的概念也有參考循環經濟的概念循環經濟"},{"start":7158.168,"end":7171.411,"text":"一個很重要的概念就是沒有垃圾的概念所以套在這邊的話呢因為是人所以變成不能沒有應該是說不能有沒有用的人所以壯世代每個人必須要會賺錢會花錢而且還要身體健康"},{"start":7187.407,"end":7190.833,"text":"所以我這樣講吳委員都同意"},{"start":7193.24,"end":7193.42,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7226.461,"end":7250.303,"text":"謝謝主席,對不起我中文不太好我可不可以請提案委員說明一下什麼叫做實現世代經濟循環目標然後維護壯世代人權與尊嚴因為我中文實在是看不懂啦可以請提案委員說明一下好不好"},{"start":7255.063,"end":7277.521,"text":"好 謝謝這個可能是壯世代跟我們一般傳統在講長照啦社福的觀念很重要的差異一點差異一點就是我們也覺得老人就是就是被我們像在撫養比是被撫養的但事實上我們主計處裡面的統計資料我們的稅55%是壯世代提供的"},{"start":7283.905,"end":7305.098,"text":"我們三分之二的財富是在壯世代的手上的那因為這些呢如果而且我們現在只想到他們要倒下來要長照這個會造成我們現在扶養比已經3.6比1啊3.6個年輕人要扶養一個老人那這個2040年會變成2比12070年會變成1比1"},{"start":7308.32,"end":7335.85,"text":"那這個就是叫做大量的高齡化倒進之塔型的時代來臨我們有什麼解決的方式壯世代有解決方式就是把分子壯起來拉下來當分母一起成為生產者、消費者、勞動者這個不僅是對壯世代第三人生他會有方向他會不會倒下來我們現在的高齡者臥床平均已經超過8年所以呢當他把這些帶出來以後"},{"start":7336.63,"end":7336.79,"text":"以上 謝謝"},{"start":7366.869,"end":7369.664,"text":"不好意思那主席我可以再繼續提問嗎好你也請問"},{"start":7376.894,"end":7387.156,"text":"我可不可以請教一下因為剛剛按照吳委員的解釋就是這個循環到讓年輕世代可以有這個壯大這個"},{"start":7401.94,"end":7416.605,"text":"創造市場所以這個年輕人他們去解決了他們的這個經濟會可以改善他們的經濟狀況那這樣子這些他就敢結婚敢生小孩對然後那"},{"start":7417.785,"end":7434.096,"text":"那這些壯世代的就會變好了壯世代過著他創造他的市場我們現在掌握他三分之的財富但是我們對高齡者的產業現在就養生養病養老其實"},{"start":7435.717,"end":7453.93,"text":"他以前為什麼會這樣子因為以前我們都因法思維就把人認為退休以後來歷不多其實現在如果你到60歲退休以後現在會有30年很多的到90歲這30年竟然沒有產業只剩下養生養病養老他不臥床才奇怪"},{"start":7455.39,"end":7479.784,"text":"所以如果發展這個整個的完整的長壽經濟十一住行娛樂各方面高齡者想看什麼電影高齡者想聽什麼音樂時尚的衣服這就是經濟部在談的大健康產業大健康產業委員不好意思因為我想我們這邊的連結是斷掉的是因為我不知道我們這個年輕世代賺的這些"},{"start":7481.526,"end":7496.16,"text":"說賺錢好了吼怎麼樣跑到這個壯世代那邊去因為你說要壯世代要穿漂亮的衣服要去看電影要去玩嗎年輕人就會去研發他要去研究那個壯世代需要什麼他有什麼"},{"start":7496.681,"end":7502.926,"text":"有些人有錢但是他沒有東西可以買,這就是創造長壽經濟有些人有錢但是都被鎖在保險這個就是金管會要釋放他們的財務自由"},{"start":7519.4,"end":7543.562,"text":"有些人需要缺錢他需要繼續的工作或者他想貢獻社會這就是勞動部的要創造的最後這些人都撐住了我們才有辦法去照顧那社福體系這些目前是15%的這些私人的當這些人我們現在只有把老人當作社福的角度"},{"start":7544.743,"end":7554.429,"text":"這個只佔80萬的人,我們有800萬的高齡者,你沒有政策沒有產業的話,這會造成人口土石流,整個崩下來以後我們社福體系也同樣崩潰。好,請黃學芳委員發言"},{"start":7558.527,"end":7580.066,"text":"好,謝謝主席。那我剛剛就那個我們今天的這個草案,《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》。那我想請教啦,如果我們把壯世代改成中高齡及高齡政策與產業發展促進法草案,"},{"start":7580.886,"end":7605.445,"text":"這樣是不是可以那另外就是說我們在譬如說在我們第一條的部分吼這個維護壯世代人權與尊嚴那我們是把它改成就是說維護中高齡及高齡者人權與尊嚴那這樣就可以呼應到我們勞動部以及各單位以及衛福部這邊原本就有的一些政策是不是可以這樣子做一個修改"},{"start":7613.727,"end":7635.044,"text":"吳春城委員你自己的意見原本壯世代大家都很有意見就這個名稱而且這個定義底下那個壯世代的定義是說指55歲以上的國民那如果我們這個草案把它改成中高齡及高齡政策與產業發展促進法草案"},{"start":7636.585,"end":7663.882,"text":"第一條這個壯世代就改成這個中高齡及高齡人權與尊嚴那第二的部分第二條就是壯世代這個年齡的這個壯世代定義改成中高齡的定義是什麼高齡的定義是什麼那這個也可以呼應目前我們這個勞動部或衛福部其他單位目前做的那如果做的不足的部分我們可以再逐條再來補充這樣是不是可以"},{"start":7665.881,"end":7668.885,"text":"請林業勤文、花園丸就吳春城委員回答"},{"start":7677.87,"end":7703.019,"text":"你也許委員發言完請廖瑋祥,廖瑋祥要請吳春城發言好,所以我現在可以發言齁張偉下次可不可以幫我們我們也來寫一個叫做首女產業相關的促進法為什麼,因為我覺得剛剛我聽吳委員講完就是說只要我們喊口號講壯世代壯世代我們真的就變壯世代嗎我剛剛已經提過一直叫我們又要消費"},{"start":7704.309,"end":7704.469,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":7719.403,"end":7736.457,"text":"所以我覺得剛吳春城講的我不知道到底吳春城委員講的到底有沒有真的背後的他說50%的我們的中高齡都非常有錢我真的也要向我問先他是不是用我們台北市會用他自己的狀況去看因為學歷上"},{"start":7739.912,"end":7756.055,"text":"我們看臺灣事實上有時候就有現在已經事實上有貧富不均的社會現象二分之一的老人他的二分之一的人他老年給付的時候落在兩萬塊以下至少四分之一的人是在二到三萬"},{"start":7757.077,"end":7768.233,"text":"對照今年的每月必要生活費用支出是1萬7到2萬4所以還有四分之三的人是這樣維持小康而且現在五十幾歲的人他可能要撫養阿公阿嬤還要撫養爸爸媽媽"},{"start":7771.516,"end":7798.099,"text":"一個事實上是輕度那個失智兩個事實上是重度的那你說還要孩子可能大學畢業剛離手這都是沉重的負擔的時候那今天要談這個的時候不要一直覺得說那要從五十幾歲的人那挖錢出來或者是叫他們他們已經努力工作他要去撫養上邊的所以我們還是希望定義講清楚否則的話你如果用五十五歲我真的也是不太同意齁等下第二條要討論"},{"start":7799.12,"end":7808.67,"text":"前面我還是聽不懂還是我的中文理解能力有問題我真的聽不懂說要翻轉銀髮那這時候為什麼不講壯世代呢因為翻轉銀髮海嘯轉為國家發展的動力反正就是要讓人一直做到死就對了"},{"start":7819.804,"end":7819.944,"text":"廖維強委員歡迎"},{"start":7845.436,"end":7861.271,"text":"首先回復一下我看了我查了一下資料所謂55歲plus掌握台灣大部分財富他其實引用的是中研院我們台灣中研院社會所的林宗鴻研究員跟各學者合作做出來的結果這第一件事情"},{"start":7862.072,"end":7879.901,"text":"那第二件事情就是所謂的就業再就業然後再花錢這件事情我覺得比較片面解讀我認為他在做的事情是做創造一個社會結構讓他有的選擇那因為我們在想區域立委我常常在跑的時候常常會經過會去跑這個所謂關懷據點關懷據點的這種地方"},{"start":7884.863,"end":7901.428,"text":"其實我覺得他壯世代為什麼剛剛有委員說那是不是就叫中高齡和高齡就業促進法就好我覺得他就是呼應了為什麼要改叫壯世代他要改變的是觀念的概念因為還是如果你要這樣講的話其實我們上次才在跟勞動部質詢"},{"start":7902.888,"end":7932.391,"text":"為什麼現在有這個就業促進法可是我們的職場上面感受到被年齡歧視的居然高達6、70%反正很高啊那這樣子究竟到底哪裡出了狀況所以我想這個是為什麼現在今天要改交壯世代的部分當然大家可能對於壯世代有沒有被激勵到不一定啊但是我自己在一線在跑地方行程的時候我有跟他們講這個概念其實他們認為他們是很認同的因為他覺得他退休之後很多人看到他就是"},{"start":7934.111,"end":7952.298,"text":"引髮族、伴白老翁講一講後來都懶得出來真的會在關懷據點的是社會上非常少數的一部分人還是很多人就覺得我要撈我就不出來我既不就業可能我也擔心我後來人生未來要留下這些很多的資產那我也不想要花費"},{"start":7954.379,"end":7969.165,"text":"他要選擇他要就業或者不就業他還是可以選擇他要消費或不消費而不是說你叫他就業然後又要叫他消費你只是創造出一個社會結構是讓這樣子的經濟比較有活水那這是我的看法那以上分享謝謝"},{"start":7981.286,"end":8003.825,"text":"其實現在其實行政院我們院長其實是很喜歡壯世代的所以才會成立了行政院的壯世代部委小組一開始我是請求6個部委會加入後來行政院自己擴充到14個部委會"},{"start":8006.187,"end":8018.877,"text":"因為每一個部會都覺得這個對他們幫助很大現在不僅是勞動部高舉壯世代重返職場成效良好包括教育部"},{"start":8020.041,"end":8041.449,"text":"也響應就是要明年1月份開始推動第三人生大學不是社區大學是有學位的大學不是都在大學18歲進入現在有些大學已經而且熱烈現在已經有40所大學報名這都是在壯世代的觀念啟發之下包括兩個禮拜前諮詢月"},{"start":8042.989,"end":8064.405,"text":"書發部過去都是用樂齡資訊都沒有人這一次用壯世代懂資的樂園、懂資訊的樂園創造了萬能因法族進來那所以呢剛才為什麼壯世代為什麼不用中高齡其實中高齡跟老齡這個稱呼現在在世界當中的定義也正在搖擺"},{"start":8065.666,"end":8083.096,"text":"正在搖擺快要崩潰了45歲為什麼就稱為中高齡你出國念書回來就已經40歲工作5年就開始輔導帶退嘛這都是過去農業社會的觀念到現在都沒有更新啦連勞動部都覺得好笑啦但是也沒有改我們要捍衛這個嗎65歲被稱為法定老人"},{"start":8087.658,"end":8110.919,"text":"像我就已經快要領敬老卡了我也覺得我不甘願啊我的朋友周邊都覺得很奇怪啊這個東西是不是應該要檢討日本都已經延後到70了所以這些都不確定的東西嘛所以為什麼一定要這個那基本上我也跟大家講說行政院現在基本上是接受"},{"start":8111.559,"end":8111.619,"text":"以上 謝謝"},{"start":8141.328,"end":8155.26,"text":"好,那第一條大家有沒有意見?要不要保留還是要通過?好,那第一條保留,第二條?第二條主要是年齡的問題啦,55歲,這是怎麼來?第二條?要保留?要不要保留?保留?好,那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8824.605,"end":8831.139,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會第一條保留,第二條保留"},{"start":8832.199,"end":8860.197,"text":"第三條我們楊耀文要先發言我覺得我們第二條直接保留那我先說就是確實目前的中高齡我們的定義是是太年輕了我覺得45歲因為明年以後就45歲的占整人口數的50%以上所以提出壯世代的概念我是覺得很好"},{"start":8862.559,"end":8883.087,"text":"為什麼是55歲這個我們我們我們要不要討論一下還有就是在第二條的定義裡面有關壯世代的政策產業跟就業其實都沒有都沒有界定的非常的清楚就是就是都都概念概念還蠻模糊的"},{"start":8884.953,"end":8914.144,"text":"因為我們總管整個草案呢就是大概都是要求政府做宣誓性的東西他整個草案裡面大概就連要不要設基金都只是得設而不是應設也就是說我們整部草案看起來就是除了要求國家每年應制定"},{"start":8915.612,"end":8930.203,"text":"年度壯世代的政策跟產業發展計畫,除了這個是比較硬性的規定以外,大概都是比較一般性、遜式性的規定。"},{"start":8932.15,"end":8945.644,"text":"也就是我們從整部草案來看假如說我們第二條就直接保留那後面的可能就會全部保留"},{"start":8948.033,"end":8973.268,"text":"所以我可能還是要問一下因為吳春城委員的定義是55歲那我想要讓行政機關表達你們覺得第2條就是包括壯世代的定義包括壯世代的政策跟產業跟就業"},{"start":8975.942,"end":8979.883,"text":"在這個草案裡面你們有沒有意見?"},{"start":9000.636,"end":9023.272,"text":"謝謝楊委員的指教其實在剛開始的時候勞動部也跟各位報告過勞動部對於目前有一個中高齡及高齡者就業促進法那中高齡的定義就是45到65那高齡者就是65以上我們對於那一邊有一個相應的法規在處理那有一些條文在12月4號也會繼續推動包括"},{"start":9027.055,"end":9049.812,"text":"每3年有一個就業計畫每2年必須要更新我們的職場指引包括我們相應的符合退休資格也必須要有一些政府部門必須要或僱主需要相應的提供調試或者是退休準備或者是在就業的準備所以其實在中高年級高齡者就業促進法其實有一些相應的規定就在處理當中"},{"start":9051.073,"end":9071.963,"text":"那目前這個本法的版本裡面有關於壯世代的就業只消除社會對壯世代就業歧視然後具有工作能力或對象協助、蓄留職商、在位者這邊也符合我們對於中高齡及高齡者就業促進法現在的做法還有未來的精進作為所以關於這個條文我們其實是沒有特別的意見"},{"start":9075.586,"end":9099.532,"text":"所以次長的意思是說就是整個中高齡的就業保障已經在在中高齡及高齡者就業促進法已經都有相應的規定在那一邊可是呢可是我想會有這樣子的草案產生我覺得第一就是中高齡"},{"start":9101.235,"end":9103.296,"text":"市長我們現在是討論這個壯世代政策跟產業發展的促進法"},{"start":9131.58,"end":9144.128,"text":"我覺得我覺得這個法討論過了以後通過以後相關的法律應該要怎麼修訂那是另外一回事就是說我們應該要先聚焦在這裡"},{"start":9146.973,"end":9169.763,"text":"跟委員報告,其實在過去中高年級、高年級的就業促進法的過程,我們發現年齡歧視是一個重要問題。那55歲以後找退職場,或者是沒有辦法再續留職場,或失業者沒有辦法重返職場,或退休者沒有辦法再就業都是一個問題。所以我們之前在吳委員的協助底下,我們對"},{"start":9171.584,"end":9198.462,"text":"55歲以上的這部分尤其勞參率雪崩式的下降我們對這一塊其實跟吳委員有充分的討論我們也推出了一些相應的計畫和重要的做法所以這部分我們在中高齡和高齡者就業促進法的架構底下針對55歲以上都有一些特別的計劃和措施在做展開所以我才會特別報告說有關於這個第二條的第四款的部分我們其實是沒有特別意見"},{"start":9199.182,"end":9206.375,"text":"我們在中高齡就業促進法底下已經有相應的計畫內容在做處理所以次長的回答就是"},{"start":9211.397,"end":9234.319,"text":"很明白的表示其實45歲到55歲跟55歲以上其實他在職場上面臨的問題是天差地遠會有很大的不對那就是你的回答呢其實就是彰顯壯世代獨立立法的需求性你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":9235.906,"end":9248.837,"text":"我好像也不是這樣應該這樣講說我們在中高年級高齡者就會促進法他其實有很多的規定在那原來的區分是中高齡者一塊高齡者一塊高齡者是幾歲以上65歲對"},{"start":9250.658,"end":9275.638,"text":"對阿我們跟吳委員這邊在相關的議題的討論還有概念的翻轉上面我們針對55歲以上這一塊勞動力快速的流失這一塊我們有推了相關的其他的法案再去做其他的措施和計畫再做處理這邊在中高齡者就會促進法並不相違背阿好謝謝主席聽起來是"},{"start":9281.688,"end":9302.138,"text":"45歲叫做中高齡然後65歲叫高齡55歲這樣叫壯世代我們今年已經有一半人口已經有一半人口超過45歲了所以我們現在一半的人是叫做中高齡我們台灣一半的人叫做中高齡一半因為"},{"start":9305.157,"end":9331.611,"text":"我還是反對啦吼因為我覺得難怪是吳春城委員提的啦吼因為這個狀就充滿的男性主義沙文主義吼所以我覺得這個而且只是55歲以上的國民所以這個我不太接受所以我覺得如果這邊沒有修因為這跟名稱有關聯性嘛所以如果跟他講保留所以跟他換姚耀偉以後再講所以我還是期待"},{"start":9332.551,"end":9332.671,"text":"主席"},{"start":9345.94,"end":9366.494,"text":"少年福利法、兒童福利法、少年福利法、老人福利法現在跳出來又一個擺脫掉發展的那樣子的概念裡邊突然來的壯世代我還是不太贊成是說這樣子的名稱如果你說今天像剛剛秀芳委員講的如果改成是中高齡第一個也符合學齡然後有事實"},{"start":9369.381,"end":9369.961,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9398.781,"end":9413.239,"text":"這樣界定下去在政府的資源分配上會不會造成什麼效果因為我始終不知道這55歲定義哪來的如果真的這個壯世代只是為了講要講口號我沒有意見可是如果要定在法律上"},{"start":9414.246,"end":9417.969,"text":"中高齡及高齡者就業促進法,當時是為了促進45歲以上的中高齡者和65歲以上的高齡者就業,來達到健康參與和安全。"},{"start":9438.827,"end":9441.669,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員吳春城等42人擬具"},{"start":9463.926,"end":9464.167,"text":"委員會員沒有?好來"},{"start":9491.678,"end":9511.525,"text":"感謝委員的垂詢我想就做兩點的這一個的說明第一個確實就整個這一個發展那個人類發展還有就整個這一個相關心理學方面的研究林業勤委員也是這方面的專家就學理上還有國際上其實基本上大概都有明確的定義比如說對於所謂青少年大概10到19"},{"start":9512.705,"end":9536.704,"text":"然後對於這個所謂的青年是20以上45就是所謂中高齡65就是所謂的高齡這個是學理還有這個基本上就整個心理學還有整個這一個相關的這個認知認知法案等等這些相關的這個學科綜合現在目前國際的一個通用所以基本上我想這個是在這個情況之下是不是對於55有一個有一個定義我想"},{"start":9537.524,"end":9558.724,"text":"這個到目前為止真的在國際上面真的是比較有比較大的大概應該是我我是1993年到德國讀書的基本上我的有限的 limited knowledge告訴我應該是不存在這是第一點另外第二點確實現在目前因為已經存在我們現在目前已經有各項的這一個政策都在推動那這個現在目前又另外再多出來這個部分"},{"start":9559.925,"end":9560.665,"text":"臨終紅教授臨終紅教授臨終紅教授"},{"start":9589.063,"end":9613.648,"text":"就財富而言都是最高的一群那經濟學人6月22號有一個整個special report他有談到就是說就整個全世界戰後因爲草案現在為什麼不消費其實最主要是兩個原因第一個事實上他們害怕就是說整個退休之後他們的整個這一個長照上面恐怕沒辦法有效cover所以他們現在不想把錢把它keep住另外第二個其實事實上"},{"start":9614.048,"end":9632.405,"text":"是因為他們覺得就是說他們下一代的這個教育成本提高那這個兩個部分事實上政府現在目前都在做啊我們有關長照部分我們現在目前在推到2.0準備進入到3.0另外第二個有關有關青年部分我們現在目前對於整個這個私校的部分我們現在目前已經有教育上面的這個都補貼政府都已經在做來減輕他們的這個負擔我想這個現有已經有這個機制在進行"},{"start":9637.79,"end":9637.93,"text":"主席"},{"start":9660.29,"end":9671.462,"text":"沒有啦,我剛才說第二條保留阿第三條你意見沒有啦,我意見就要通過這樣其實你第三條嗎?第二條保留,來,第三條有沒有意見?沒有的話就...瑤瑤快點,快說"},{"start":9681.485,"end":9703.591,"text":"第三條大概就是我剛剛講的就是這個草案的提出很少有比較具體的法律效果的這第三條倒是有要求要設立壯世代政策的辦公室"},{"start":9705.053,"end":9710.587,"text":"那我也知道好像行政院現在已經有了相關的機制"},{"start":9716.021,"end":9735.372,"text":"可是呢假如說第三條他第三項有規定說壯世代政策辦公室每年應該要制定國家年度壯世代政策跟產業發展計畫到這裡呢我個人是支持的因為我不覺得45歲到55歲跟55歲以上"},{"start":9738.574,"end":9759.601,"text":"是一個是一個是一個急劇就因為其實他真的差差距很大的我也我也不大不大不大欸贊同市長剛剛講的就是就是就是早期的分類我覺得特別是在就業市場裡面45歲到55歲跟55歲以上那個絕對是不一樣的"},{"start":9765.531,"end":9784.724,"text":"第三項後來又有講說並審核計畫目標跟預算及成效是不是表示這個辦公室必須要有獨立的預算這個我可能要請教一下提案的委員"},{"start":9798.937,"end":9808.307,"text":"行政院在今年6月份的時候就成立了壯世代跨部委小組都有運作,也提出了"},{"start":9810.609,"end":9826.141,"text":"現在有70幾項的一個計畫在兩個禮拜前的行政院的社會福利委員會當中卓院長也有針對壯世代的促進方案也都提出了蠻完整的規劃"},{"start":9827.282,"end":9841.927,"text":"基本上行政院現在是在推動這一個的但是是不是行政院推動呢然後我們就不用立法呢事實上各部會我都在接觸他們今年所114年所編的預算有關壯世代專門項目當中呢"},{"start":9846.752,"end":9868.84,"text":"都是幾乎是零因為沒有法源與法無拒然後大家因為這個是陳時中政委當召集人行政院這個他也很無奈因為他只有一個秘書他唯一能做的事情現在只有14個部會找來然後大家提一提勉強跟壯實在有關的會總又會編叫做會編"},{"start":9873.662,"end":9888.761,"text":"所提的東西其實跟都是現行措施、樂齡、活動然後各方面的事實上並沒有辦法解決剛才所提出來這樣子一個人口天翻地覆的問題所以為什麼"},{"start":9890.703,"end":9908.773,"text":"所以這個事實上不是跌床加烏其實我剛才講的其實大家都已經提到了這就是一個雙軌制對於高齡的這部分雙軌制這樣才有辦法一邊就是照護的措施一邊就是發展性的措施"},{"start":9909.833,"end":9932.226,"text":"那壯世代做一個發展性措施這個一定是必然的一定要做的事情不然無法解決我們如果繼續照舊的方式那至於提辦公室其實辦公室這個沒有餘法所以為什麼要有一個統合的單位那其實像行政院有很多委員會"},{"start":9933.827,"end":9959.554,"text":"很多委員會其實都一樣就是像文件會的行政院文化會報一樣也是跨部會小組消費者保護的會報檢探辦公室的會報其實都是這樣子因為它不是一個部會能解決的問題所以為什麼沒有指定一個部會其實是尊重行政院由行政院來裁量"},{"start":9960.094,"end":9973.985,"text":"張祺凱為"},{"start":9974.97,"end":9993.057,"text":"今天很高興今天討論看起來蠻熱烈的我看剛開始春城這個提案一共有42位委員共同提三個黨都有那春城在總執行跟委員會也提了好幾次我看連這個總代總院長也都是贊成的"},{"start":9994.017,"end":10013.262,"text":"那我剛剛這樣一路聽下來正能量的聲音比較多啦正能量聲音比較多可是現在民進黨的委員這樣比較質疑的可能是壯世代這個名字從名稱一直到會不會跌穿家屋有些指證可是我要提醒齁那個二十九天齁這29天就進入這個超高齡社會了那也沒有錯到目前為止我們面對那個掃紙化跟這個"},{"start":10015.163,"end":10043.455,"text":"少子化跟高齡化這個問題看起來社會上你去做個民調包括民進黨可以去做個民調社會上確實有很多的質疑聲也做得不夠好那我覺得春城很有心他很花了很多的心思去提了這個案子看起來他是比較積極面的包括就是說目前我們有中高齡就業法這個服務法都可以去做那可是相對我們現在應該有個專法針對比較年長者而且這裡面有一個非常重要這個法裡面有一個非常重要我們都不喜歡人家叫我們老人家嘛對不對"},{"start":10045.569,"end":10059.421,"text":"老人家以前連銀髮竹坑某些人都覺得說好像這個名詞都該更好一點點我覺得現在變成壯世代而且針對他裡面的整個產業發展說他的就業剛講的不是只有說叫連長的人去就業啦"},{"start":10062.594,"end":10089.725,"text":"也可以啊當然90對為什麼不能壯世代我認識的一些年長者八九十的現在運動的都都都非常的好啊你可是沒有啦葉請你不喜歡他叫壯世代你要叫他你要叫他什麼你要叫他你你有時候稱他太老的人名稱他又不喜歡啊這壯世代是一個非常中性而且是一個更正面的啦好對不對葉請那個你不喜歡如果不喜歡壯世代那你要提出個更好的名詞嘛"},{"start":10090.185,"end":10113.807,"text":"目前看起來是最...抱歉我不要再講太多了抱歉因為今天是經濟跟衛福聯席我是經濟委員會今天我不是只有我一個人我們台灣民眾黨全力支持這個案子每次說這個法案對台灣社會是非常正面的那我剛剛特別強調這個案子是朝野的立委包括民進黨立委是有連署的然後在總執行跟各個委員會的時候"},{"start":10114.548,"end":10137.125,"text":"包括行政官員、左院長都是比較正面的看待這個事情所以我期待今天我們用比較正能量的然後講今天如果再這樣耗下去這樣耗下去沒有錯就是每一條都保留嘛那結果是什麼送到朝野學生、政黨學生啊那因為每個人都朝野都有簽名已經42個了嘛對不對那民政黨全力支持國民黨也支持民進黨裡面也有些人支持這個案子還是一定是會三讀通過的"},{"start":10138.126,"end":10154.846,"text":"那是不是在三讀通過前我們用比較正面的來看這個案子好不好 把它做得更好 照顧我們所有的人特別我剛剛要提醒 超高齡都來了 像我們在座的像剛剛陳穎比較年輕啊 她沒辦法體會 她說什麼這個壯世代的這個產業經濟 像我們這些年老的我們現在都需要啊"},{"start":10156.488,"end":10184.343,"text":"對不只是連長者有經驗的傳承或那些年輕人在這個在這個壯世代產業裡面他們會盡很多心力都照顧一下我們這些壯世代好不好一起努力希望今天啦一方面可以速度可以快一點點啦那第二個我剛提醒很重要再這樣下去一直有某些的意見然後到後來都是保留到後來這山頭一定要過所以我們今天要做的事情比較要比較正面就是說針對兩個地方要修的趕快去補強這個是比較重要的我們盡快往前跨一步好不好共同來努力謝謝"},{"start":10191.024,"end":10191.184,"text":"黃靜雯委員"},{"start":10217.577,"end":10230.755,"text":"那如果不足的部分就可以再來做一個修正那我剛剛提的就是說對於這個壯世代的定義是不是可以更明確那另外就是說剛剛那個"},{"start":10234.619,"end":10254.964,"text":"張綺楷委員有特別提到就是說我覺得會有這麼多委員聯署當然對於這個每一條的內容當然覺得說這個沒有什麼問題可是問題就是說我們對於一個法案是不明確定義不明確的你叫行政機關要怎麼去執行"},{"start":10256.324,"end":10283.913,"text":"完全不明確那主責單位也不明確主責單位到底是衛福部、勞動部、教育部、經濟部各部會或者是更高的這個層級行政院到底是誰要來主責這個完全都不明確的情況之下你就要把這個條文就直接這樣子通過其實我覺得這樣也不太好另外我們可以保留在委員會如果今天大家有一些意見的話"},{"start":10285.113,"end":10298.67,"text":"就保留在委員會不一定要出委員會嗎就保留在委員會我們可以再來討論那如果說這麼草率就讓他出去其實我覺得不好的我也認為就是說目前"},{"start":10302.094,"end":10316.768,"text":"這個45歲或者是更高45歲到64歲這個中高齡或65歲這個高齡其實65歲以上很多長者其實他們現在都還在工作甚至我爸爸現在八十幾歲他也還在工作"},{"start":10317.569,"end":10342.191,"text":"他也還在工作啊所以我覺得說只要我們現在勞動部或衛福部這邊我們有一些政策的一個配套或者是鼓勵這個企業鼓勵讓這些這個中高齡或高齡者有這樣一個就業的機會其實我覺得這個都很好不一定要侷限在一個名稱如果說這個名稱你定義都不清楚的話其實我覺得你"},{"start":10343.732,"end":10365.303,"text":"即使讓他出委員會然後到最後表決好照吳委員的這個版本通過那行政單位沒辦法執行我覺得這樣也很奇怪我們在我們今天這麼多委員在這邊這個立法或者是要修法其實最主要就是要讓這個法更完備更完整那行政單位也要能夠執行"},{"start":10366.744,"end":10391.562,"text":"好,如果完全不能執行,你就一個法放在那邊,那到最後,後面的人在追說,啊為什麼這已經通過了,啊然後沒有設辦公室,或者是沒有設基金,或者是,啊這個這個要怎麼怎麼做,那行政單位也許跟你講說,啊現在我們就已經有在做了,好,已經中高齡或高齡的這個就業什麼都已經有在做了,啊你要怎麼說,對吧,所以我覺得說我們要"},{"start":10393.523,"end":10394.084,"text":"海洋委員會第8屆立委"},{"start":10415.56,"end":10441.261,"text":"那個時候要成立的時候就是一個邱文彥委員還有一個田秋晴委員兩個人就一個民進黨一個國民黨非常非常非常堅持楊耀文你應該有印象吧然後一直搞搞到最後是真的通過了三讀啦哇大事啊現在行政機關說我們大家要怎麼處理所以那個海洋委員會那個法通過之後過了好幾年"},{"start":10442.122,"end":10465.958,"text":"海洋委員才成立所以那個就是先立法然後後來成立成立到現在廣媽在當主委所以這個是有權力不過大家如果對這個很有意見的話我還是認為因為民進黨黨團的意見是到要做那個政黨協商所以我們也希望"},{"start":10467.096,"end":10487.826,"text":"因為放在委員會本身有一個問題就是沒有人沒了啦因為大家委員的意見是南沿北側所以我還是今天希望把它一條一條都處理完保留也可以都可以所以大家盡量發言盡量把它釐清"},{"start":10491.407,"end":10499.631,"text":"那第3條大家有意見就保留保留保留那第4條第5條有修正動議我們來處理兩條變成一條"},{"start":10508.857,"end":10512.139,"text":"我覺得我並不反對創立新壯世代的相關規定"},{"start":10536.972,"end":10562.524,"text":"可是我覺得這一部法律就是大概幾乎所有的條文都是訓示性的規定甚至於都是現在已經在推動的政策我比較有問題我比較有意見的是這個部分我倒不覺得說中高齡"},{"start":10564.236,"end":10591.418,"text":"這樣的定義是不能打破的因為我再強調45到55跟55以上就業消費產業的投入絕對不一樣可是比較有問題的是我們看了這個草案的內容其實它並沒有任何幾乎沒有一項是強制性要行政機關去做什麼"},{"start":10592.662,"end":10614.672,"text":"沒有強制性然後呢再看目前行政機關在因為還是回到源頭因為我們有中高齡的界線所以他本來就已經有很多在推動我我我我最大的意見在這裡我都到其他我都都是沒有我我甚至於是比較贊成真的必須要區分出來裝事態"},{"start":10616.15,"end":10628.596,"text":"因為我們可以很明確的感知到55歲以上就業、消費包括他的經濟力跟45到55確實有差別這個是我的意見"},{"start":10638.767,"end":10653.261,"text":"楊耀委員的一個說法我想基本上這個法案本來就比較是框架性的立法因為他的目的就是讓大家現在有做一點有做一點就放在一起是方便這個行政機關做一個整合因為他不是個權益法案"},{"start":10653.982,"end":10654.502,"text":"促進法案 促進法案 促進法案"},{"start":10678.776,"end":10678.896,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":10703.027,"end":10703.147,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":10723.467,"end":10744.582,"text":"那另外一方面這個就是照護政策衛福部在努力的這些長照照護政策是照顧所謂的不管是中度、輕度、失能、失智等等這個照護政策是存在的但是有一群也許年齡也是相當或是更年紀更大但是他還在具有這樣的一個不管是生產消費能力我認為生產跟消費能力是不會有抵觸的本來我們就鼓勵賺錢然後鼓勵來花錢的"},{"start":10749.945,"end":10754.508,"text":"所以如果說用這樣的來思考是不是請大家能夠想想說這個立法的重要性那這個立法基本上有些人覺得說很陌生可是有時候有時候一個人其實他努力了很久當然過幾天我的人工生殖法案很多人認為很陌生但是我努力了30年"},{"start":10768.317,"end":10773.7,"text":"所以是不是說他們有長期在耕耘這個題目的人讓他是不是能夠聽他說清楚這個講明白那另外當然你說壯世代是負面名詞嗎那我其實剛聽的時候我都沒有因為我也是女性啊我比你年紀更大我應該更接近其實如果他是一個strong我們都希望人說我們strong而不是weak而且你是老師你在保護別人你在教導別人"},{"start":10794.471,"end":10822.074,"text":"其實你是被視為所謂的相對強者因為你要照顧的會照顧弱勢人就是視為相對的強者所以我想這個壯世代本身的意義真不論說他是不是他根本沒有他不是個男性或歸屬女性而是一個正面的比老啦高啦這個是更positive的是一個更正面的那如果你用這樣的態度跟觀點思考每一題的時候也許你會可以做一些修正跟接受謝謝"},{"start":10828.721,"end":10847.795,"text":"第4條跟第5條請大家看一下那個條文非常非常的正面而且明確嘛我實在想不出來什麼理由第4第5條必須要反對我討伐大家聽第4條政府應該積極推動、輔助壯世代產業的發展並結合財稅跟金融制度、土地跟建物活化"},{"start":10848.536,"end":10876.437,"text":"提供壯世代產業的發展政策培植新創及產業鏈促進長壽經濟式發展這怎麼會有人反對呢?第5條政府應該建立超高齡社會的金融行動方案跟指標提供相關金融商品或投資鼓勵措施建立壯世代的金融生態同時積極提供壯世代普及的公正的金融教育強化金融勢能促進財富公平與安全"},{"start":10877.844,"end":10893.695,"text":"我覺得這兩條就剛剛主席才是合併嘛就通過這種條文在保留會變成笑啦那另外齁我們剛剛這樣討論下來有兩個點齁大家可能會認為說好像是一個新的法案然後覺得有點陌生剛剛朱協工那真好啊"},{"start":10894.793,"end":10916.454,"text":"海洋委員會當初也是這樣對不對你倡議完之後要一段時間形成更多的這個共識現在海洋委員會不是也運作得非常好嗎那你如果從全世界去看日本啊日本在1995年他進入這個超高齡社會前面他們就通過一個法叫做高齡社會對策基本法他們是由誰由他們首相親自去領導協調這個高齡的對策會議"},{"start":10920.905,"end":10930.056,"text":"你從國內有海洋委員會的這個例子在全世界有像日本還有很多先進國家都是針對這個高齡的來臨那現在臺灣民眾黨提出的壯世代"},{"start":10931.274,"end":10958.4,"text":"他有潛力可行在國外也有在世界也有啦我是希望說今天趕快把這個案子速度可以加快然後如果說真的民進黨某些人還有意見就到政黨去協商可是更重要的我們要去面對超高齡社會的來臨然後我們要提出一個有效的這個政策那至於王永遠剛才在說的你基本上也是贊成這個嘛那你說覺得說某些東西還不過具體我請有兩個解決方案你看一下喔你看剛剛被我們那個保留的你說包括你說他沒有組織架構嗎他裡面的那個"},{"start":10961.921,"end":10983.078,"text":"第二條的定義到第三條第三條他那個組織架構他都基本上都已經定的蠻細的了如果只有不足的地方可以再做部分的補強可是我希望說那個速度是往前走的好不好今天不要好像變成每一條都保留那感覺也是怪怪的能不能例如說第四第五就讓他通過第四第五的這個你接著要補"},{"start":10986.795,"end":11003.164,"text":"我不知道到底在擠什麼,為什麼不能讓我們在委員會好好討論那你如果講這樣子,那我問你,壯世代產業指的什麼,還長壽經濟,請我們的青海委員給我們定義一下"},{"start":11007.87,"end":11026.555,"text":"這在第二條我們的提案裡面就講到壯世代的這個產業指的是什麼?活化壯世代的資產、發展長壽經濟、協助壯世代持續成為生產者、消費者之各行業所謂的技術、產品、服務、知識跟措施的開發、生產、使用、銷售跟投資"},{"start":11029.176,"end":11029.216,"text":"長壽經濟是什麼?"},{"start":11043.616,"end":11068.454,"text":"這裏面都已經有定義你為什麼把每個東西都很細分因為我們過去都沒有聽過這個名詞本來就是一個比較結果性的解釋因為我覺得這個法裏面如果把它講清楚你長久推那麼多的活動把它講清楚我們不會有太多意見就是有很多東西不是這麼清楚的時候你們如果今天要來判這個法我們也沒有特別有意見"},{"start":11069.875,"end":11084.504,"text":"像名詞上壯世代如果只是一個口號沒有問題本來就有中高齡我說從學理上面找不出來如果你把那個假設真的很喜歡喊這個口號的話就把中高齡跟高齡促進法就會促進法把它改成壯世代"},{"start":11085.731,"end":11086.171,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":11103.684,"end":11103.784,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":11130.592,"end":11132.813,"text":"好 我們現在請那個我們金管會林志憲處長用法律的陳述來表達一下"},{"start":11163.643,"end":11190.453,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員好那事實上這個這個關於金融部我們事實上常常到那個委員辦公室去做良善的溝通那因為這條文的部分我還是跟各位長官報告一下因為如果按照修正動議是把第5條刪除拿到第4條第2項嘛那跟各位報告現在第4條的文字裡面有一個財稅加了一個財稅啦但財稅夜間財政部沒來我也不知道財政部到時候會不會有什麼問題這個我不知道那就針對我們金管會有說明一下啦就是說"},{"start":11190.973,"end":11218.376,"text":"因為這裏面的話就是文字的部分的話金融商品或投資也跟各位委員報告我們不大適合建議你要去投資什麼啦所以這方面改成服務比較好因為我們大部分都說金融商品跟服務嘛金融商品服務那後面有兩個文字的部分像建構壯世代金融生態系還有所謂的提供壯世代的一個普及跟公正的一個教育其實金融教育跟金融教育這部分沒問題但是各位委員報告我們金融教育是整面性在提供的"},{"start":11219.366,"end":11238.261,"text":"但是我之前有跟委員辦公室也跟大家討論過我們可以針對壯世代這個議題大家多去多關注多關注但是我很難把它接說這個是壯世代金融教育而且這裡面寫說是一個公正因為我們金融教育本來就是要符合整個商業的一個邏輯可能是文字那還有"},{"start":11238.841,"end":11241.162,"text":"也跟委員報告建構《壯世代》的金融世代體系"},{"start":11260.286,"end":11285.552,"text":"我可不可以問一下就是說這個第4條的修正動議上面有寫一個那個金融商品投資鼓勵措施那壯世代的金融商品是什麼跟我們報告其實事實上我們之前也在討論的目前我們有好幾個其實那個不是完全就是它是整體性的我簡格最簡單的信用商業像我們一個之前不是說保單"},{"start":11286.212,"end":11286.572,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":11314.517,"end":11323.428,"text":"那你要有一個定義啊你壯世代的金融商品你是什麼樣的商品那是壯世代好55歲以上的金融商品"},{"start":11324.841,"end":11349.1,"text":"我其他的金融商品我就不可以嗎?對啊我覺得那你壯世代的這個金融服務又是什麼?跟一般的不是壯世代的金融服務又是什麼?那你們有什麼樣的差別?跟委員報告所以說當初我才建議說這個要建構整個那個所謂的壯世代的那個生活金融太陽要拿掉就是這個理由啦就委員就這個理由因為我沒辦法去切割"},{"start":11349.961,"end":11350.282,"text":"施政委員"},{"start":11365.038,"end":11389.447,"text":"你立這個壯世代你就沒辦法執行啊所以我剛剛講的啊我們要立法就是我們立了之後完備讓行政單位可以去執行或是其他金融單位可以執行那你今天立了這個法完全沒辦法你剛剛講了沒辦法這樣一刀切沒辦法這樣去執行的話那你立一個法就是給大家沒辦法去執行的一個法我感覺說立這個法"},{"start":11391.806,"end":11392.887,"text":"其實就像檢探辦公室一樣我想在幾年前沒有檢探這個觀念"},{"start":11414.413,"end":11441.856,"text":"沒有減碳這個觀念現在碳都還可以拿來買賣這不是一個很新的觀念嗎所以其實人口的危機不會比環境危機來得更小這個叫做天翻地覆不會更小所以我同意吳委員我剛剛同意就是說壯世代現在行政單位已經有在做的中高齡及高齡我覺得定義更清楚其實也不是不好"},{"start":11442.096,"end":11465.834,"text":"那為什麼現在就是剛才一開始就提過了現在用老人用引法族用中高齡這一些都已經被高度污名化那所以呢現在我講說這個污名化會產生什麼問題我們現在中高齡是法定的名字叫45歲那我可以講現在台灣已經有一半的人是中高齡了"},{"start":11466.514,"end":11483.837,"text":"臺灣現在今年平均年齡超過45歲也就一半的人是中高齡65歲是法定老人但是呢到2070年我們臺灣會有一半的人超過65歲臺灣就是一半老人"},{"start":11484.858,"end":11512.863,"text":"然後這個會產生一名想剛才金管會一樣金管會很多最近包括解除了說期貨你知道70歲不可以買賣不可以開期貨賬戶你知道嗎我們很多的金融商品有很多的年齡限制的你超過幾歲不能買什麼保險層層的限制包括上市櫃公司也是金管會在管轄上市櫃公司現在幾乎不太聘用45歲以上的員工"},{"start":11513.743,"end":11538.858,"text":"也就是我們一半的人是不被聘用的然後另外交通部要沒收75歲以上的你要重新考駕照這不是年齡歧視嗎教育部對於終身教育師對於600萬的現在60歲以上的教育預算一年就是6億平均每個人一年的教育費用只有100塊台幣"},{"start":11542.658,"end":11558.911,"text":"數位部完全不管高齡者的數位落差達到60%包括臺北市中心一樣我們跟消極會的一個調查80%的50歲以上的人在消費過程當中有感受到被歧視"},{"start":11560.052,"end":11580.704,"text":"所以這個一直在講說為什麼我們現在的現行措施是不足的是不夠的不能只有這樣子的方式是無法解決這個問題的不是說行政單位有在做因為有在做的方法你沒有翻轉你沒有大幅的改變沒有把從引法作為的改變改變從人設的改變轉翻轉到壯世代的改變是一條無法解決的問題謝謝"},{"start":11590.888,"end":11618.927,"text":"好 王委員 王振旭委員好 我先跟大家報告一下我想針對第4條跟第5條合併看起來是一個方向而且比較有一致性那不過剛剛大家有引用那個林宗鴻就是中央研究院社研所的研究員他有一份報告大家也都非常清楚他裡面有提到其實他針對壯世代的另外一個族群比較年輕的"},{"start":11620.228,"end":11646.416,"text":"他把它稱為崩世代崩就是崩結了崩就是說另外一群事實上是相對是弱勢弱勢是指經濟的弱勢因為從那個數據分析來看那目前在所講的壯世代是臺灣所得最高啦最高賺錢的擁有的資產我相信大家的感受應該差不多多少因為我們曾經很努力"},{"start":11647.516,"end":11672.299,"text":"現在還在努力當中所以有付出有所得是應該的而且也實質得到回饋可是我們年輕人是不是就崩世代就不努力了這個當然要有待研究可是相對來講他們的確是比較弱勢我現在比較擔心就是說如果從不同的世代來看這個問題如果我們今天入法直接在第4條跟第5條"},{"start":11673.996,"end":11703.108,"text":"透過這種方式來呈現的話到時候對於另外一個族群也應該說那是不是因為有了這個入法以後剛才他剛才講到下來不管是金融的啦或者是其他的一些希望真的壯世代有更好的輔助或是更好的一些產業的發展另外來講相對般若感會不會更讓他們感受到臺灣未來照顧全民的時候"},{"start":11703.988,"end":11723.102,"text":"除了我們要透過這個法來照顧壯世代的同時那會對於我們的崩世代如何又有效的去規範或者是引導他們對台灣的整體的經濟或整體的幸福感是有一致性的所以這部分可能在文字上也要多琢磨以上"},{"start":11725.7,"end":11738.489,"text":"那個金管委,這第4條,第5條要合併齁,你看看怎麼改,我想這條改改會通過啦,不然每條都保留到老闆的,我就改不?"},{"start":11743.86,"end":11759.267,"text":"那你要怎麼改?壯世代的金融生態、壯世代的服務,那你跟一般人的那個55歲以下的那個金融服務是差別在哪裡?"},{"start":11761.257,"end":11781.713,"text":"其實文報其實剛剛也跟我們報告說事實上是一致的啦只是說因為《壯世代》剛才我跟文報上是一致的所以說沒辦法退一切但是事實上只能夠針對《壯世代》多去做一些總括但是如果條文來看要單獨去提個《壯世代》這部分確實我們有作業上的困難對啊那所以那個相關的問題才剛才有一些建議啊抱歉抱歉這有點邏輯的問題事實上"},{"start":11784.315,"end":11811.682,"text":"你終究沒有定壯世代這個事實上這個目前你有在做嘛你中高齡你經過這個就有在做嘛對不對有嘛你現在不是我現在做的包括金融偶舉金因為這裡有寫一個說要針對壯世代做所謂的公正跟公正的對啦我意思就是說我現在急著要釐清啦現在不是說用壯世代這個名詞好像是一個新創的東西這個新創然後以前的這個保險或產業就不見了不是這樣啦"},{"start":11812.942,"end":11818.566,"text":"其實都在做嘛這是第一個點邏輯這個要更清楚第二個沒有什麼一刀切的問題你說這個壯世代這個產業只有那個壯世代才能做嗎聽我說聽我說這個年輕人更應該做啊所以才不會變成剛剛那個王委員講的變成崩世代啊他是全民受惠的嘛對不對"},{"start":11837.757,"end":11854.67,"text":"整個你說就是例如說女性的這個產業或者是青少年就規定只有青少年在做嗎女性只有女女性的錢女性有做到現在壯世代裡面有一個很重要的所以我只有兩個邏輯很重要第一個就是他目前已經有在做他是一個先試性跟整合的那第二個不是所謂的一刀切也不是只有老"},{"start":11862.577,"end":11870.253,"text":"這壯世代在做這個壯世代產業是年輕人要一起做你現在在做的是中高齡或者是高齡的金融商品"},{"start":11871.277,"end":11873.379,"text":"現在壯世代金融,像我們有綠色金融,什麼叫綠色金融?"},{"start":11897.081,"end":11918.447,"text":"就是說有重視環境保護的公司的一種經濟嘛有重視壯世代這種讓他活絡的就是他是一個表示一個對這種精神企業文化CSR的一個重視的一個金融的一個方向嘛不會有一個產品就叫做什麼壯世代產品"},{"start":11918.527,"end":11933.824,"text":"可是你這邊就寫壯世代金融生態系啊到底是什麼綠色金融生態系這完全是模仿那個我們的綠色金融的一個的寫法那綠色金融不是更奇怪不是啦那你們有針對壯世代"},{"start":11937.299,"end":11960.393,"text":"壯世代我現在是要知道說你現在已經在做的是中高齡及高齡的金融商品及金融服務那未來如果改成壯世代壯世代這樣會有什麼不一樣我這樣說明金融商品跟服務這在我們那個金保法也有類似的文字他概念裡面是金融商品跟服務是我們本來就要做"},{"start":11961.313,"end":11982.462,"text":"很多商品的發展都是其實我們各業法的部分包括金融保險都是一樣金融商業跟服務是我們一個推動的方向我剛要報告的是說因為現在這個文字裡面特別針對就是說單獨列出來就比如說要我鑽世代一個所謂圈或是說針對一個教育但是我很難去外面在宣導說我今天這個金融教育"},{"start":11982.822,"end":12004.911,"text":"只有55歲就是壯世代才能夠來進來這樣我可能也沒辦法做啊一定是整體性來做之下那針對就剛剛吳委員講的綠色金融是一個很大的一個範圍嘛對不對那我是針對這一塊的部分又特別去做關注但是我沒辦法就是另外把它弄出來啦對對所以我才剛給跟委員報告說這部分我們才會有一些意見跟疑議啊"},{"start":12005.931,"end":12019.223,"text":"是這個概念那還有一個是財稅那個跟主席報告還有一個財稅你財稅的部分我因為我特別有拜登財稅會加給一個公平但是你財稅要做什麼這部分可能也要跟財務部做討論因為那個當初的那個版本的話第5條並沒有財稅的文字那現在修正東西現在都有一個財稅"},{"start":12027.611,"end":12028.112,"text":"是不是把那個財稅拿掉"},{"start":12054.195,"end":12060.999,"text":"全項之金融制度就財稅級三個字拿掉這樣拿掉可能會比較順吧"},{"start":12069.989,"end":12098.219,"text":"如果從現況來看的話那個所謂的一個商品跟投資要變成服務啦因為我們現在不可能建議說任何的年齡程序做投資啊那還有那個建構壯世代的金融生態系這個文是建議刪除啦因為確實剛剛有報告過還有那個提供就是就是只要寫同時積極那個提供金融這樣那個所謂的壯世代的普及跟公正這文字也建議刪除掉"},{"start":12098.559,"end":12116.211,"text":"那最後面那個促進財務安全跟公平這部分可能要拿掉,因為財稅已經拿掉了。那你全部都拿掉刪掉,那你要直接來,你講一下。好,我們會比較厲害啦,只是說我們是從我們的文字上面表現,其實我剛剛講,我們一定要想辦法能夠做啦。"},{"start":12116.753,"end":12117.173,"text":"我覺得處長講得非常好"},{"start":12139.624,"end":12162.897,"text":"這個第4條,第5條合併喔,你又一套又打到沒打到,全教你了,先通過這條沒什麼爭議啦,這沒什麼爭議,你不要壯世代,你要拿掉就拿掉嘛這條裡面涉及三項,那我經管會其中是一項啦,那我剛才有表...柴水已經拿掉啦其他還有什麼?"},{"start":12176.457,"end":12200.235,"text":"現在這樣子跟你目前的那個中高齡你現在在做的中高齡的有有什麼差別沒有差別對啊沒差別為什麼還要再弄一個壯世代金融商品"},{"start":12201.668,"end":12224.245,"text":"這樣不是就為了改成壯世代而改嗎?我都覺得這樣真的所以我從一開始講的壯世代的定義把它定義為中高齡及高齡其實我覺得這樣子也是可以就壯世代原本在做的然後做的不完備的然後再做一個修正我覺得這是可以的"},{"start":12228.525,"end":12256.924,"text":"主席因為這個大家討論很久了第4條跟第5條到底應該要怎麼樣基本上這個行政機關要考量的是說這個其實都是原則性的原則性的所以這個然後跟第二條趙偉因為這個跟第二條第二條是保留嘛"},{"start":12258.767,"end":12283.877,"text":"會有連帶的會有互動會有連帶的是不是大家也討論了是不是這個就先一樣先保留了那行政機關我是覺得說行政機關這個你們回去之後再去實際的去考量因為這個很新的東西我們不要去去這個阻擋這個新的東西我們應該是說"},{"start":12285.7,"end":12307.135,"text":"有這樣的一個方向我們怎麼樣把它立得更好然後因為這個是這個原則性的所以當然法律名稱我們現在是保留嘛未來也可以考量基本法的這樣的一個名稱所以這個部分那因為這個壯世代一直在"},{"start":12308.856,"end":12334.693,"text":"這幾年一直在很多的專家協議者都在推動所以我們這個做行政機關的也不要落後以上謝謝現在是第一個連名稱都有疑慮啦帶來就是壯世代的年齡你要保留所以來第4條第5條還有修正動議的第4條保留那我們現在看第6條"},{"start":12337.549,"end":12339.212,"text":"第6條這又一件我沒辦法第6條沒意見這應該好...沒有...沒有那個啦沒有真理吧"},{"start":12354.096,"end":12361.178,"text":"好第6條通過了來第7條第6條變成第5條修正動議嗎?第6條又修正動議嗎?"},{"start":12370.213,"end":12397.553,"text":"好 這個修正動議是前項是研究專責單位應建立壯世代國家資料庫及資訊系統共享平台促成公私力部門及協助機構之合作以促進壯世代政策產業就業之研究與法規原定沒見"},{"start":12404.602,"end":12427.399,"text":"委員這邊要成立專責的研究單位因為涉及到政院的組織人力經費的整體規劃剛應該跟第三條一起討論嘛可是第三條保留的話你放在這邊說要通過不是也很怪嗎所以我想問行政院你怎麼去理解而且這有個名詞我也不太懂就壯世代研究資源指的是什麼意思"},{"start":12428.18,"end":12454.012,"text":"否則就要請我們的吳委員解釋就那個研究這因為現在好像每一這法裡面每一部分都要掛如果掛壯世代可是第二條壯世代這個定義就不清楚了然後我們現在每一條現在要討論那前面都沒有辦法解決然後要討論後面可是每一條都會掛壯世代這三個字可是前面又定義不清楚啊所以想問一下好 另外一個我剛剛講第三條就已經保留的"},{"start":12455.772,"end":12458.853,"text":"第6條跟第5條的修正動議都一起保留再來第7條"},{"start":12495.312,"end":12496.073,"text":"對阿這期阿"},{"start":12525.037,"end":12530.942,"text":"你第7條修正動議是要刪除併到第6條第7條修正動議是刪掉併到第6"},{"start":12546.358,"end":12546.799,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12565.44,"end":12582.265,"text":"因為第7條他修正東西是刪除那有併到第4條但是第4條我們已經保留了所以這個第7條就刪除大家有沒有意見就是你原來的第7條第7條刪除"},{"start":12588.968,"end":12591.811,"text":"第7條保留還是刪除?第7條併入第4條那第4條是保留所以這個也保留"},{"start":12607.309,"end":12632.786,"text":"現在是這樣嗎?那保留是不是還是,如果要放到第4條還是要讓我們發言啊?沒有啦,他第7條已經整個內容移到第4條啊,第4條我沒保留,那這個第7條就給他刪掉了啦,保留也沒意思啊。整個全部的內容都移到第4條嗎?那就要讓我們發言啊?"},{"start":12635.1,"end":12635.46,"text":"立議結束 花園"},{"start":12655.464,"end":12681.395,"text":"第2章禁止聯名歧視,第4章促進失業者就業重疊,第13條、14條跟專法的第10條跟第34條重疊,所以這兩部法律都是特別法。所以想問一下,特別法優先於普通法的時候,新法優於舊法,那本法通過,假設這個法正通過的話,在中高齡及高齡者就業促進法之後,透過之後的法律效果會不會造成"},{"start":12681.875,"end":12708.36,"text":"除了本法的第2條、第1項、第7條、第13條、第14條與《中高齡就業專法》相似的部分適用還是架空《中高齡就業專法》的相關規定。第二個是要問的是直接拿掉勞動政策這幾條本法的內容就少掉20%那勞動部有什麼處理的建議那第三個要問的是請問就業促進手段是不是只有媒合培訓機制所以請勞動部這邊回答"},{"start":12711.837,"end":12740.515,"text":"跟委員報告,就是一開始勞動部在這個案子有跟各位報告過,就是我們在大院的治理下在109年有通過了中高齡及高齡者就業促進法,針對45歲以上到65歲以及65歲以上都有一些相應的措施在進行,不管是就業歧視,不管是在職者的穩定就業,或者失業者的重返職場,或者是退休者的在就業,都有一些相應的規定在做。"},{"start":12741.095,"end":12764.677,"text":"那確實在55歲以上的部分有一些特殊的狀況所以我們針對55歲也推出了一些相關的措施那目前這樣一部法律其實在就業的部分寫的是相對是比較概括的規定但我們最終還是會回到中高齡及高齡者就業促進法相應的措施去做所以不會有漢格的情形"},{"start":12765.217,"end":12793.862,"text":"那至於其他的部分會涉及到其他的面向那因為相關部會都在那部分就不是勞動部可以處理的我們只是在表達在就業的部分確實55歲以上需要做一些處理我們在中高年級高齡者就業促進法之前在大院還有相關委員的指導下我們也做了相應的處理那有關於在這裡把它提綱竊領加一個條文去寫其實只是對我們來講沒有什麼特別的罕格和困難"},{"start":12794.522,"end":12796.523,"text":"這部分就不是勞動部可以說明的以上報告"},{"start":12822.529,"end":12850.524,"text":"原來的第7條齁,那我們剛剛講刪除是不對啊,要不予採納,因為這個是新的法,舊的法才要刪除這個名稱齁所以第7條不予採納,那我們進入第8條原來的第8條來,鄭天才維那個先釐清一下"},{"start":12855.971,"end":12856.491,"text":"主席我有意見"},{"start":12886.523,"end":12906.52,"text":"有什麼意見?修正動議的人提出來他就是要合併他根本沒有需要那在保留那個意義是什麼?不要只是為了保留而保留就是說今天的修法若要一些進度的話我覺得剛剛那個勞動部的市長講得非常好今天這個法"},{"start":12907.662,"end":12925.735,"text":"基本上它所謂壯世代它的確有一些涵蓋了我們原本的這個中高齡還有高齡就業這一些層次的問題那你應該把它視為它是一個更上位它是一個基本法它的輻射的面向其實就是更廣泛所以剛剛社長講得很好它沒有漢格的問題"},{"start":12926.656,"end":12940.762,"text":"是一個更上位的概念有些基本的原則本來就是這邊強調然後他落實到我們中高齡就業的相關的法令裡面去所以這個是沒有衝突的那在這樣一個情況底下大家應該比較理性的來看待麥公從頭到尾反對到底"},{"start":12944.504,"end":12951.25,"text":"有一些可以的我覺得我們是不是有共識的行政機關也不反對的那我們是不是就讓他通過那的確立法也要審慎有疑義的我們再保留要不然從頭保留到完那我就不曉得這部法案從名稱到每一條然後連他們主張修正動議的要喊保留我不知道在保留什麼意思的啦就是大家"},{"start":12968.484,"end":12992.019,"text":"委員提出這樣的法案,也是的確他講了一個很重要,我們就是要翻轉為未來做準備嘛,坦白講如果我們大家可以有建立起這樣的共識,未來勞動部也更好推,他們現在推中高齡就業坦白講很辛苦啊,因為你沒有去傳播,你沒有去把這個概念推出去的時候,很多企業還是覺得太勇啦,這中高齡買啊,被他笑人,就是那個"},{"start":12992.799,"end":13017.602,"text":"很刻板的意象其實還在那這個法如果通過一個很重大的意義就是說我們社會的觀念去做一個真的是大的翻轉跟改變我早上也講過就是從一個發展性的觀點來看那剛剛那個秀芳委也有講一句我覺得認同啊就是說有一些我們是用補充性的就現在還做不到的在這個法裡面它涵蓋面向可以是最完整"},{"start":13018.823,"end":13037.713,"text":"最完整然後再落實到各部會你現在現有的再去強化不夠的再來補強那這樣子通過這個法我覺得他基本上是有意義的從早上到現在已經三個多鐘頭看中間大家那個討論就還是是沒有建立起一個共識了那這樣變成主席你要從頭保留到最後"},{"start":13040.609,"end":13068.076,"text":"好啦我現在跟大家跟委員報告齁我們原來的第5條他併到第4條了那第7條他併到第...也併到第4條了齁所以我們可以把原來的第5條跟原來的第7條都不宜採納這樣就比較簡單啦好不好大家有沒有意見?這樣也記得有出於事情啊"},{"start":13071.195,"end":13090.349,"text":"第4條,沒有啦,他說過意見啦。你併入了,你就原來的條,嗯,把它刪掉,就叫做不予採納啦,不予採納。好,原來的第5跟第7條不予採納。好,那來,不要再有意見了啦。不予採納那個不進去啦,你要去炒,你要去炒。"},{"start":13093.131,"end":13093.932,"text":"主席你剛才也說要看回事實"},{"start":13119.655,"end":13135.961,"text":"這就是因為我們的協商是順功,裡面可能有重複的,所以叫原始提案的人把它併,所以才併成13條,是這樣來的。你怎麼併,然後你整個法條到底是怎樣?"},{"start":13141.323,"end":13165.124,"text":"變成說你怎麼併來併去到底是你文字到底是怎樣我們根本都不清楚你剛剛主席只有講說第5條併到第4條第7條併到第4條原本第7條屬於採納文字到底是什麼主席你自己知道那可不可以請醫事人員念一下你怎麼併"},{"start":13167.199,"end":13170.061,"text":"這一個其實原條文都沒有變動只是現在把原來條文的4、5、7這都是關於經濟金融就業的並在一起成為修訂版的第4條"},{"start":13189.332,"end":13200.605,"text":"然後原條文的第6跟15條這是把它併在這裡第5條修正完了的第5條那第6條就是講那個醫療的這個是原條文沒有動"},{"start":13206.147,"end":13232.493,"text":"那第7條是併了原來的9、10、11有關教育、數位、文化的這三個本來的條文把它併在第7條因為它同性質那第8條就是併了原來的12、13、14有關觀光、農業還有地方創生的這個呢因為他們本來都各單獨一項把它併成一條"},{"start":13234.913,"end":13240.637,"text":"陳偉現在第8條主要的就是這樣子其他的內容沒有改變"},{"start":13282.306,"end":13295.814,"text":"那個醫事人員我可不可以問一下可以這樣子嗎可以這樣子嗎那個醫事人員是不是回答一下我的問題可以這樣子病來病去啊病了我們都搞不清楚你現在到底在病什麼"},{"start":13299.089,"end":13299.71,"text":"主管單位"},{"start":13316.574,"end":13340.013,"text":"不是要讓我們用院會的這個先做討論然後併到時候是不是那兩條全部都拿掉了是這樣嗎我想問我建議一下啦就是因為本來就有這個委員會就是吳春城委員版本嘛應該是以這個版本為主嘛那有修正動議本來就是遇到修正動議就是併進來討論啦委員會審查原則本來就是這樣子啊本來修正動議就是可以併進來討論但是併完之後"},{"start":13342.655,"end":13343.415,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13356.52,"end":13377.729,"text":"公務委員會報告我們法案在審查的時候當然是以原提案版本為主修正動議的時候修正動議是會並進來一起討論今天這個版本吳春城委員他們提的是針對他們自己原本的版本提修正的版本那內容上剛才我們說第4條"},{"start":13378.609,"end":13378.789,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":13398.636,"end":13415.295,"text":"把他併起來的話沒有影響到他原本的提案的時候呢那是可以先就併這個部分來做一個共識啊如果說大家有共識的話那就可以就是把這個保留的部分就把它用併的條文沒有共識所以就先保留啊"},{"start":13425.043,"end":13439.36,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13456.809,"end":13476.605,"text":"我可不可以再跟大家說明一下其實這個可以看得出行政單位基本上都是接受這個法案的壯世代大部分都已經在配合跟執行行政單位沒有太大的問題跟干擱包括行政院現在都在推動"},{"start":13477.566,"end":13499.098,"text":"包括跟大家講的一個其實在民間壯世代不是一個新名詞現在你去Google已經非常龐大的包括這種週刊所有都在採用壯世代然後在民眾當中的反應是很迴響我也希望這一個法案是分黨派的其中"},{"start":13500.419,"end":13514.895,"text":"我們的民進黨的我們的書記長、幹事長蔡依、書記長跟副書記長、蔡依、李昆城他們都是連署包括我們這一次在座也有好幾位民進黨的連署"},{"start":13516.497,"end":13529.396,"text":"那所以呢我覺得這個是一個新的時代來臨我們現在舊的措施的確是沒辦法解決這問題的所以大家呢要攜手努力共同來推過來能夠"},{"start":13533.046,"end":13535.387,"text":"臺灣在29天進入超高零社會的時候能夠給大家一個一個積極的回應一個表示我們有能力來處理這個超高零社會的問題以上謝謝"},{"start":13568.211,"end":13590.686,"text":"如果併案的話委員也有意見那我們就全數保留啦那就是原來的提案跟修正東西的提案全部都保留然後我們繼續往下走到最後每一條都保留我也會給他送出宴會送到宴會跟政黨協商我們在這邊拗拗拗拗不完再再再就像林業齊講的再兩年也沒辦法"},{"start":13593.528,"end":13606.291,"text":"這你講的嘛 你講兩次 你想講延宕兩年 在這好好討論好啦 那我們現在就討論原來的第8條好不好 來來 王委員"},{"start":13616.835,"end":13623.538,"text":"政府應從壯世代作為國家發展動力之觀點藉醫療投資增進智慧精準醫療以維護壯世代身心健康並涉及壯世代政策之預防、保健、心理衛生、醫療、復健"},{"start":13644.128,"end":13666.048,"text":"與連續性招募進行規劃、推動及監督等事項。﹖這個的確是對於壯世代來講有別於其他的年齡層可能有他特殊的需要現在我們知道那五十五歲以上當然身體他們進程會不太一樣所以他的確是需要有一些處理模式不過其實我們衛福部國健署"},{"start":13666.949,"end":13680.884,"text":"這方面也做很多所以將來如果能夠有效的去做整合也的確要考驗我們這個衛福主管機關這方面的努力比較特別要提醒的就是醫療跟復健"},{"start":13683.227,"end":13707.547,"text":"這個基本上這是一種需求啦人一定是有感覺我們都要去看醫療復健就是因為當中有哪一些器官或者是功能輸去影響以後他才會做復健所以這部分如果把它放在這邊的話也許監督好像有一點點道理不過我們要監督什麼東西這不是搞得很清楚這部分是不是大家再討論一下以上"},{"start":13719.929,"end":13723.09,"text":"好,那這一條就保留,那第9條,原來的第9條"},{"start":13747.899,"end":13754.74,"text":"現在的9、10、11談的是教育、數位、文化我們把它併為一條現在就第7條9、10、11喔"},{"start":13782.853,"end":13782.873,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":13799.173,"end":13820.682,"text":"主席、各位委員,因為教育部在推動55歲的族群,我們是依據《終身學習法》的一個規定去規劃相關有關於高齡者的一個活動。然後第二個部分,其實我們有訂定了高齡教育終成計畫,那也是依據在行政院的政策白皮書還有我們《終身學習法》的部分去推動有關這方面的一個"},{"start":13823.824,"end":13844.784,"text":"業務第三部分是其實我們依據這樣的中學學習法推動的學習那他其實主要的一個族群跟委員所提到的壯世代55歲其實是一致的那所以現在部裡面已經在課證研擬有關於第三人生大學的一個示範計畫來滿足他第三人生的一個需求那至於說"},{"start":13846.025,"end":13861.154,"text":"第7條裏面有談到的一個數位平權跟有關於信用化部分,我想應該這是要相關部會的共同處理,這個就可能要請相關部會來做一下說明以上。數位部的陳副署長"},{"start":13883.648,"end":13912.08,"text":"委員好就是有關那個數位發展部的部分就是我們針對數位平權的部分我們一直持續在進行一些數位的經用調查還有訂定一些網路的一些無障礙的一些數位平權的作業那至於是數位落差的部分我們其實是有搭配就是各個部會包含交易部還有那個衛福部我們其實都有"},{"start":13912.84,"end":13913.081,"text":"主席"},{"start":13938.297,"end":13954.595,"text":"有關這個地條有談到教育跟數位的這部分這就是讓第三人生積極參與那其實這兩個部會現在都很積極跟壯世代在合作教育部已經要事辦第三人生大學"},{"start":13955.917,"end":13979.175,"text":"蘇發部因為我們現在的數位落差不在城鄉而是在年齡年齡的落差到60%那我們看了蘇發部原來過去所推定的什麼熱領好幫手幾乎效率很差但是一旦採用了壯世代的這種新的概念之後事實上是很受歡迎的那這些實際的效果都看得出來"},{"start":13980.456,"end":13999.106,"text":"所以大家既然在落實,落實之中沒有問題,是不是我們立法部門也應該要助一臂之力,我們立法部門反而比行政部門還要保守,還要保守一直要把他拉回過去,而不是推向未來。"},{"start":14000.967,"end":14002.808,"text":"教育與數位平權是非常重要的"},{"start":14020.64,"end":14047.836,"text":"就是大家不要就是全盤民進黨的委員不要全盤否定這部法事實上他所宣示的或者是想要引領的方向我個人認為還是一個進步的方向那這個部分應該是要共同來支持而且如果我們在法上面有這樣子去定的話那未來更可以督促包括像數位部跟教育部在這個部分可以更加大力道就是全力來推展"},{"start":14052.95,"end":14081.416,"text":"我也是想要呼應這一條其實我也在講我們在地方上去這個關懷據點有一次我非常的訝異他有各種的課程的英文課程、日文課程甚至跳舞、打鼓什麼的可是我有一次去參加了一個課程他在教用ChatGPT怎麼寫父親節的卡片這一堂課非常多人上我很訝異所以我認為這個東西我想身為一個年輕世代我們常常也遇到的問題都是需要幫就是稍微年長一點的要幫他處理這個數位的問題"},{"start":14082.356,"end":14092.951,"text":"那我想現在既然行政部門也都有在做包含教育或者速發部那這一條我們是不是就給他通過因為看起來也沒有任何應該不會有任何的爭議性那以上謝謝"},{"start":14103.474,"end":14121.312,"text":"主席針對第7條我這邊可不可以再確認一下因為在上個禮拜有跟吳春城委員去參加遠見及抗建雜誌他們推一個白皮書是有關超高齡社會該社會整體應該有的一個白皮書"},{"start":14122.413,"end":14150.887,"text":"那其中有提到第三人聲第三人聲大家覺得是非常重要而且是爭奪於即將進入到有機會有第三人聲不管是之前因為沒有受過好的教育或者是希望他能夠有更多的教育機會的親民下屬提出來的我的問題是說目前我們所有法案裡面有沒有第三人聲這樣的一個名詞如果沒有的話那這邊是不是也需要真的第三人聲做比較清楚的立法說明"},{"start":14160.925,"end":14161.045,"text":"民進黨委員"},{"start":14184.475,"end":14212.002,"text":"實行部門沒辦法執行的話我覺得這大概後來那定制法也沒有什麼很大的用意在所以如果沒有把名詞像什麼長壽經濟什麼一堆這種名詞甚至我說壯世代這個連這個名詞都已經跟學理上不符合的時候那這樣整個法裡面都會一直在提到壯世代壯世代甚至現在又創造出一個新名詞叫做第三人生我也不知道這個名詞代表有沒有定義講清楚"},{"start":14213.142,"end":14240.173,"text":"講清楚的話我們才能夠繼續走下去說到底未來要怎麼執行以上剛好講到現在這個社會當中像比如說綠色經濟、比特幣這都是時代演進都有很多的新名詞現在太多這種名詞了那如果我們現在要每一個都去質疑第三人生"},{"start":14241.253,"end":14266.226,"text":"幾乎已經是一個通常性的沒有人會質疑的已經到了常識的成績了包括教育部都已經要成立第三人生大學了我們是不是要糾葛在這裡以上第三人生呢民法第729條就有了第三人生然後還有其他相關的法例"},{"start":14267.618,"end":14296.867,"text":"所以我們自己也可以去查一下其他法律不只這條不只民法729條其他的法律也有第三人審以上那我們原來條文的第9條第10條第11條併入第7條的修正動議的第7條併進去大家有沒有意見沒有意見好那"},{"start":14299.499,"end":14317.071,"text":"主席,剛剛委員你講的民法729條,第三人生存期內,不是什麼第三人沒有這樣的啦"},{"start":14318.86,"end":14346.402,"text":"對啦 不要亂講啊所以主席主席我今天要講的就是說我們立法委員立法就是要真的非常的完備不要說立一個法結果沒辦法執行我今天這一句話已經講了好幾次了立一個法然後定義不明沒辦法執行其實這個不是人民之福啊所以我還是希望就是說大家充分的討論"},{"start":14347.984,"end":14359.039,"text":"那剛剛就是很多條併來併去啊好幾條都這樣子併在一起其實我也看回什麼什麼只是我們希望就是說大家要充分的討論啦"},{"start":14361.354,"end":14378.401,"text":"我當然我也很佩服我們那個吳委員他在推動這個壯世代那我也認同就是壯世代可是如果壯世代定義都不清楚的話而且大家都有意見的話我覺得真的是要再討論那我剛剛提的壯世代如果可以更清楚"},{"start":14379.582,"end":14391.404,"text":"壯世代的定義如果今天包含中高齡及高齡然後中高齡也有定義45歲以上高齡65歲以上全部把他納在壯世代其實我覺得這樣也很好啊"},{"start":14397.018,"end":14420.813,"text":"各位學長姐,雖然這是我第一屆第一年了,但是我還記得在前陣子衛福部的質詢上面,其實這也不是沒有潛力精神衛生法的心理健康促進,在一開始立法的時候也沒有把它定義清楚那後面這個行政機關認為說可以用實行細則去把它定義清楚所以我想這也不是有潛力,這也不是沒有潛力的那所以以上補充,謝謝"},{"start":14422.927,"end":14439.45,"text":"如果每一條都要用這樣子再說明,那就表示這個法不是那麼完備啊。你看我們今天從這樣才幾條而已,如果這樣照看才8條而已嘛。如果剛剛修正動議到第8條,那我不知道後面還會再併嘛。"},{"start":14441.532,"end":14464.752,"text":"我反過來說,其實短短的十幾條而已,如果這樣子併來併去,然後大家都很多的疑義,我覺得真的要三思啦,不要真的立一個法,然後大家後面覺得沒辦法執行,然後定義不清,其實我覺得這樣真的,我們是立法委員,我們是在立法,立一個法大家沒辦法執行,你覺得這樣好嗎?"},{"start":14467.764,"end":14492.691,"text":"謝謝黃昭偉因為剛剛其實有提到所以沒有再講一次那回答你的問題我剛剛聽到的是說現在教育部他們剛剛也說有在執行所謂第三人生大選嘛這不是在實行上面已經在做的事情嗎所以這個東西我想應該是沒有什麼爭議才對啊所以我剛剛講的已經在做的都是在中高齡及高齡這個政策底下嘛對不對是那個教育部是不是"},{"start":14495.981,"end":14496.361,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":14517.717,"end":14544.432,"text":"那我們原條文的第9條、第10條、第11條還有修正綜藝的第7條文都保留那接續等一下發便當我們休息20分鐘要吃這個嗎?不然有人說霸凌耶發便當、備用便吃,大家輕鬆一點發了齁,那我們行政單位不敢吃啊"},{"start":14546.107,"end":14557.477,"text":"行政單位我估計要吃一頓飯差不多要15分鐘啦我們休息20分鐘好了啦讓他吃便當啦不然等一下要被檢舉欸謝謝20分鐘吃便當"},{"start":14581.261,"end":14586.745,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員吳春城等42人擬具"},{"start":14608.703,"end":14616.913,"text":"沒有沒有,連跟委員會跟局長去看,就是,可以這樣子,這個委員會,你給我什麼話,我原諒你。這個事情只要經過委員通,也至少委員會,那就這樣,都是在,"},{"start":14624.622,"end":14625.062,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15797.822,"end":15804.085,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 王一鳴委員也要程序發言 現在都亂了 現在在程序發言"},{"start":15807.749,"end":15822.019,"text":"主席我先程序發言一下我要請教一下那個我們的預算處理因為那個黃秀芳召委她在下個禮拜一她要排勞動部的預算的詢答然後下個禮拜一就要截止收案我想這個違反了過去"},{"start":15823.84,"end":15823.9,"text":"處理預算慣例"},{"start":15840.721,"end":15860.775,"text":"這是一個合理的程序但是當天質詢當天就截止收案我想這個有剝奪這個各委員辦公室再深入去探究這一些透過質詢當中去發掘到的新問題然後再提案的這樣的一個權利所以我在這邊建議希望黃秀芳召委可以從善如流這個部分是不是在給委員們彈性的時間"},{"start":15863.956,"end":15888.861,"text":"就是再多一個禮拜的時間再收完因為基本上這不影響任何這個預算的審查排案因為下禮拜是黃修芳委員再下禮拜是蘇清泉委員他要下下個禮拜才會輪到這個實質的預算審查所以我特別因為今天有蠻多我們衛環委員會的委員在這邊因為今天才收到這一個我覺得這個是相對在處理上可能不夠周延希望朝委可以調整謝謝"},{"start":15893.774,"end":15896.297,"text":"說不定他們倆在互相執行,不錯"},{"start":15903.265,"end":15925.481,"text":"謝謝那個王委員有特別提到其實在第10屆第8會期勞動部的預算巡打也有這樣就是112年11月16號那當天巡打也是在當天就截止收案那內政委員會在今年11月13號在會議當中也是就是"},{"start":15927.202,"end":15942.316,"text":"11月27日才詢答,11月22日就截止收案,因為我們也是依循往例,一方面也是議事人員的作業程序,當然就是說議事人員那時候我們排的時候,議事人員也沒有說不行。"},{"start":15943.157,"end":15943.337,"text":"主席"},{"start":15986.226,"end":16015.786,"text":"立法院有處理預算的程序跟原則我覺得我們應該要依照一般正常的原則剛剛黃昭偉提到的那個都是比較特殊的情況我剛已經強調了為什麼要不然立法院也可以不用安排這個詢答就直接提案嗎就是說這個其實是在審查預算過程當中要走的SOP一定像我們蘇昭偉安排的就很好對不對你先衛福部的詢答完之後你給大家充分的時間到下個禮拜喔"},{"start":16016.887,"end":16024.214,"text":"那個蘇清泉文同樣的審衛福部的預算你看人家是怎麼做的他是巡打完之後截止日是什麼時候12月5號"},{"start":16027.469,"end":16028.789,"text":"王委員我在上禮拜開會通知就已經發出去了啦不是說"},{"start":16054.597,"end":16064.866,"text":"不是用開會通知處理我覺得你只舉第10屆的某一次這個完全違反我也不是新進的委員我第8屆第9屆都帶過未換委員會按照慣例就是應該先尋答尋答當天召委再宣告而且召委的宣告也必須尊重所有委員"},{"start":16075.816,"end":16075.876,"text":"姜蕾娜議員"},{"start":16093.573,"end":16122.586,"text":"大家是達成這樣的共識這件事情真的沒有必要吵我只是在講一個合理而已對那我現在要反應我就覺得你們應該善意的回應啊就是這樣子你那個不是慣例嗎慣例就是像我們蘇清泉委員這樣的做法嗎我們以前都擔任過召委召委就是要尊重所有的委員先詢答當天在說 收案截止的時間這個就是正常的做法你剛剛舉的那個不是慣例啦"},{"start":16133.477,"end":16147.249,"text":"我的建議因為立法委員大家其實都是希望互相尊重我們其實不要花很多的時間在這裡萬一莊委你那天排了這個事情現場如果不順利的話質詢給你帶來很多的刁難其實你也很困難"},{"start":16150.251,"end":16179.033,"text":"所以我的建議因為剛剛那個委員有講到我們內政委員會的確是如此然後但是呢我們也私底下跟召委談了就是說是不是這個問題可以不要弄得那麼樣的這個針鋒相對所以我的建議大家和諧可能討論一下是不是就不要對就不要用的那麼樣的硬性的規定其實呢在議事的這個運作下面那麼樣的意思這麼樣的硬性規定"},{"start":16180.054,"end":16187.796,"text":"不利於未來要草野協商或審理預算,其實對召委來講會更辛苦。以上建議,謝謝。"},{"start":16207.728,"end":16231.195,"text":"我充分建議因為今天主要是在審查壯世代的這個法案那如果依照我們經驗分享就是剛剛我非常贊同高經所說的是以和諧為主因為這個也沒有硬性什麼規定但是就是以不影響到這個召委在排成他的排成就是說呢他要決"},{"start":16233.936,"end":16258.753,"text":"質詢完、詢答完那要下一次要審查預算的時候不影響這個那這個時間都可以融通我是覺得應當是如此那一般一般我們的經驗分享就是說當召委的他都會在主席台來做宣布什麼時候我們的收案會收到什麼時候大概都會這樣子然後我是用經驗跟他分享因為宣布委員也是很溫柔的會很溫柔"},{"start":16260.874,"end":16261.314,"text":"藍綠牌都很和諧"},{"start":16284.011,"end":16291.92,"text":"那大概就是一個原則不影響到審查預算的排程這個時間點都是彈性處理這以上我建言"},{"start":16303.527,"end":16328.407,"text":"我在這邊也是很希望黃昭瑋可以再多給我們一點彈性的時間因為其實有很多勞動部的預算是民進黨委員很關心的要不是看到這兩週有一些新聞比如說我們新任的紅部長去考察以前勞發署署長的辦公室才發現電費是到3萬度一個月3萬度做了一些職災還有洋藥委員質詢的啊就業安定基金花了多少錢在辦演唱會結果下個禮拜一紅部長來"},{"start":16333.05,"end":16351.015,"text":"報告這個預算審查那我們都還沒有問他問題他這個詳細的報告也都還沒出我們什麼譜都還沒看到然後我們就要開始審查預算就要close掉了那我認為我剛看了一下勞動部114年的就業安定基金又預計要花280億台幣勞動部公務預算預計要花2859億元"},{"start":16357.296,"end":16370.591,"text":"那很多民進黨委員其實也很關心以前這些錢是怎麼用的所以我們應該要在這個場域好好的給我們一點時間審查預算才可以避免未來你們很不想看到這種事又再發生嘛不是嗎"},{"start":16373.624,"end":16379.766,"text":"我講一個,因為我是12月9號排詢答那我在下一週是12月18、19是排預算審查那像這樣子的話,因為勞動部他們也要去溝通"},{"start":16395.952,"end":16424.488,"text":"不是說委員提出來然後都沒有一定要去溝通啊所以這樣子議事人員把那個所有的提案整理完之後然後勞動部又去溝通其實我是我再說一次我是12月9號尋答那我上禮拜我已經把文發出去那12月9號的下午截止收案齁那隔一個禮拜18、19排那個預算的審查是這樣子"},{"start":16425.709,"end":16447.259,"text":"對啦 阿水也要給人家公佈 阿不然就是隔天 阿不然就是隔天對阿 我沒有時間阿 我覺得是八十九阿 對啦所以 今年 今年的院會是延到1月21號啦 對啦 不急啦 不急啦"},{"start":16450.239,"end":16453.641,"text":"尊敬的黃昭蕙,我聽我說,我沒有說話,尊敬的黃昭蕙,我給大家"},{"start":16462.461,"end":16482.61,"text":"對啦對啦 立法院大家都變大啦 立法院一百十三個都變大印度也都變大而已 只不過是我們選理所做印度所以搞清楚大家都 職權是一樣的所以 薛芳姐妳就下個禮拜再主席在那邊宣告 再辦一禮拜 大家集中起來我們就好了"},{"start":16485.234,"end":16485.915,"text":"議事委員有夠衰"},{"start":16515.143,"end":16515.583,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16537.119,"end":16548.611,"text":"他收件就是說你18是實際審查預算嘛那下禮拜一直是巡達那你就是18號之前看你要15、16截止安就好了啊對不對那是召委的權利這是我們建議啦"},{"start":16554.24,"end":16570.831,"text":"主席我也想提醒一下黃昭薇因為我們之前這個陳素月委員在上一屆的時候她的同仁也因為熬夜寫預算而不幸倒下之前有發生過所以我們也希望給助理不管是議事員助理都再多一點時間"},{"start":16572.762,"end":16589.213,"text":"我們現在都不能對我們的助理太過苛刻晚上9點之後不能隨便打LINE打LINE算加班公務員都沒有加班費啊其實對不起那個主席有可以發言嗎其實我們秀芳招委的用意就在這裡啊"},{"start":16596.048,"end":16614.667,"text":"因為意思就是說假設我們今天排定審查日期的話他就必須要請大家早一點處理這個提案嘛阿如果能夠往後順延當然是沒有問題阿順延的意思就是說如果不是4849而是在其他地方的話"},{"start":16622.286,"end":16640.663,"text":"因為到時候可能還有什麼其他的協商等等的問題啊所以關鍵在於說如果我們不希望讓這些行政人員需要加班去處理這些流程的話這個是主要的考量而不是在於說為什麼一定要在那一天或者是那幾天要處理這個不再討論了"},{"start":16646.365,"end":16661.236,"text":"9號巡達然後18號要處理預算18、19處理預算那你就在在這中間抓個時間點讓大家有充裕一點點啊就不會灰啊就結束啦好不要再講了啦我們接續處理第12條我們待會還可以請你們處理原來的第12條來"},{"start":16714.249,"end":16726.4,"text":"好 原來的12、13、14那吳春城委員跟我們委員溝通之後他們認為沒有病沒問題病起來反而有問題那最後大家的意見怎麼樣那12 有沒有意見"},{"start":16741.26,"end":16741.48,"text":"主席"},{"start":16769.759,"end":16769.919,"text":"主席"},{"start":16806.933,"end":16808.074,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16824.531,"end":16832.734,"text":"主席我講因為第一個原來我們的第二條對壯世代那個定義就還不清楚然後你現在因為這幾條剛好都寫到這個名字這第一個第二個想問今天交通部有來吧"},{"start":16855.976,"end":16870.656,"text":"想問一下什麼叫壯世代的就是將不怎麼去理解這個壯世代觀光發展還有旅行就是旅遊的行銷品牌壯世代旅遊行銷品牌"},{"start":16875.41,"end":16900.266,"text":"現在行政院已經有14個部會都在推動壯世代政策他們都沒有這個疑義他們都對壯世代都沒有疑義所以剛才提到的現在很多的新事物包括剛才以前什麼AI以前沒有這個比特幣也沒有然後什麼外送也沒有共享經濟也沒有現在就是要解決的一個"},{"start":16901.827,"end":16922.206,"text":"就是稱呼這些不要就是老人陰法這些都要汙名化我們要給他們一個正一個正確的身份來符合他就叫做壯世代所以呢這一個為什麼所有的部會都在歧視老人因為他們心中就是把他們當作老人"},{"start":16923.027,"end":16951.08,"text":"你不改變這個身份他就剛才已經舉過太多的例子當他改做壯世代的時候他們就知道方向了他們就知道政策的方向了然後各個部位就好一一的就知道該做什麼事情了你如果一直把它定義在他就是陰法族他就是老人高齡者他就會一直往那個方向弱勢的然後需要照顧需要福利的方向去擬定政策我們請觀光署"},{"start":16955.755,"end":16980.496,"text":"主席各位,那交通部公關署報告,那目前交通部在推動樂齡旅遊,那也是著重在中高齡及無障礙的一個旅路線,那也同時建置這個長者啦,更友善的這個旅遊環境,那也擴大這個身心障礙的一個兒童啊,或者是婦女的一個服務,那可以提供更友善的一個空間跟旅遊環境,那另外"},{"start":16981.877,"end":17002.904,"text":"江部觀光署目前也在推動樂齡旅遊的認證也辦理觀光產業人才的培訓也透過職遣跟職務的再訓練鼓勵更多的中高齡長者能夠來投入觀光產業目前是江部在辦理的事項以上"},{"start":17006.206,"end":17031.665,"text":"而目前是沒有針對這個名稱做一個定義那我們推動的這個觀光品牌叫做是樂嶺的一個旅遊一下子樂嶺,一下子銀淮,一下子長青我都不知道你在說什麼來我想真的要很感謝交通部觀光單位所提出的說明就是在這個法案裡頭可以更精準的"},{"start":17032.625,"end":17032.685,"text":"主席"},{"start":17049.138,"end":17049.298,"text":"以上建議"},{"start":17071.984,"end":17072.004,"text":"韜靜雯"},{"start":17091.656,"end":17093.518,"text":"中高齡勞工的定義以45歲為分水嶺本調查沿用勞動部定義,將45歲以上通稱為壯世代"},{"start":17107.714,"end":17119.5,"text":"已經有在開會很多的公聽會了幾個部會他都去大概可能資料都在這邊我再念一下壯世代就業促進獎勵實施要點勞動部從113年2月1號已經生效了發佈的單位勞動部勞動力發展署身心障礙者及特定對象就業主然後他自113年2月1號起生效適用"},{"start":17135.547,"end":17141.491,"text":"身適用的對象是年滿55歲以上或年滿45歲以上依法退休者下稱壯世代勞工"},{"start":17154.956,"end":17155.236,"text":"中高齡45歲以上高齡65歲以上"},{"start":17184.016,"end":17184.556,"text":"壯世代農民或跨域從農者"},{"start":17200.174,"end":17200.534,"text":"提升農業技術、農業經營"},{"start":17217.449,"end":17233.705,"text":"在這個中間的,比如說45歲到55歲,那我們這個要怎麼去定義,所以我是認為就是說一步法還是要讓他更完整更完備,讓其他的這個單位可以去執行,我覺得這樣是比較好"},{"start":17237.728,"end":17238.149,"text":"青壯年流氓"},{"start":17253.468,"end":17277.281,"text":"其實這個本來就是他在年齡方面政府部門已經設定的很清楚不管你是這個中高齡高齡或者是我們現在所稱的壯世代他這個都很清楚的在他的年紀年齡方面都很清楚的說明那結盟的我們的青年這是加成作用啊這是加成作用啊所以我個人認為這沒有疑慮啊以上見言"},{"start":17281.957,"end":17285.739,"text":"政府應針對壯世代農民或跨域從農者提升農業技術及農業經營結合青壯年或留農或返農增加農他兩個是合作的他根本沒有抵觸啊我覺得這個有什麼"},{"start":17305.569,"end":17305.729,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":17337.51,"end":17359.278,"text":"黃學芳委員我從早上聽到現在黃學芳委員最關切的就是中高齡是45歲以上高齡是65歲以上那他一直希望把這個壯世代包含這兩組人都包含在內你的意思就是這樣嘛所以你是希望他的45"},{"start":17363.621,"end":17379.256,"text":"他沒有那麼多理解就是說這個55歲是他帶來的啦,結果剛才高津里里阿妹就是55歲,但是現在還有勞動部勞動部是說,是說55歲喔那也有45,那也有45,那到底是"},{"start":17384.252,"end":17385.773,"text":"中高齡及55歲的壯世代都符合"},{"start":17414.565,"end":17429.068,"text":"13條就大家原則都同意了還要保留什麼?"},{"start":17438.767,"end":17456.733,"text":"主席你可以這樣宣告本席建議也就是說如果在第二條你們的協商怎麼樣我們後面的條文按照第二條的協商答案這樣子去推就好啦定定之就好啦我們不要浪費時間從第二條到現在還是在討論這個問題啊我們已經在實質討論內容啦"},{"start":17471.029,"end":17473.274,"text":"應該保留啊 沒有這樣子的啦"},{"start":17478.44,"end":17495.991,"text":"這兩個方案啊,第一個就是第二條如果依照名稱是怎麼樣,那後面的條序就依照你們第二條協商的結果依序去做調整,這第一個方案。阿第二個方案,第13條大家都沒意見,各單位都素息啊,但內容都一樣啊,那為什麼要保留?阿如果說還是因為爭議還要保留,那這個會議很奇怪囉。"},{"start":17502.335,"end":17503.88,"text":"我是覺得這個壯世代這個名稱他們現在遛在這裡而已啦年齡啦定義啦涵蓋啦"},{"start":17511.923,"end":17531.376,"text":"對啦 現在他就跟你說這後面都出了《壯世代》《壯世代》看到《壯世代》就起火了就是我們醫療的貴命了還有我覺得這樣子充分討論也很好至少在第13條大家內容都沒有意見只是《壯世代》它的定義是到底是45歲、55歲、65歲這一個定義而已對不對 至少我們充分討論已經知道內容對 內容沒問題嘛 那就等第二條那就保留吧"},{"start":17541.994,"end":17544.815,"text":"主席主席確定一下那12條所以12 13 14確定一下是保留保留"},{"start":17567.954,"end":17576.338,"text":"沒有人讓 因為前面定義不清楚 只有這個壯世代這個名稱就是沒有對啊 就是沒有辦法理清 你們就回到第二條去討論啊"},{"start":17585.543,"end":17610.364,"text":"主席不好意思我們覺得就是跟我們新住民基本法一樣大家都不同意不同意這樣子也沒辦法去討論我覺得是12、13我們是這個內容我們是同意的那個名字我們再來去討論是這個就是對就是讓他過不能是每一條都是壯世代每一條都不同意這個名字就不用討論了嘛後面就不用討論啦這樣就是對啊"},{"start":17613.067,"end":17630.984,"text":"所以我覺得不是對討論內容同不同意那個名字我們改天再來就是來協商再來討論以上建議麥委員的那個中文素養我很欽佩謝謝謝謝謝謝非常欽佩真的阿飛勒那就"},{"start":17638.985,"end":17639.365,"text":"我從早上忍耐到現在都是和諧為要"},{"start":17657.884,"end":17673.96,"text":"吳主席我是充分建議啦因為今天的會議很有意義大家針對每一條的內容好好的去討論那比如說第13條大家針對內容都沒有意見那所以但是在你的壯世代裡頭這個名稱所以我具體建議第二條因為已經保留所以呢我們以下的條文因為每一條都有壯世代"},{"start":17680.606,"end":17702.797,"text":"那如果依照這樣子那這每一條要保留但是我是覺得建議也就是內容我們可以讓他通過但是你的名稱就隨著你第二條最後草野協商結果隨這個結果去調整你各條的一個名稱我就覺得主席台可以這麼宣布看大家寶貴的意見這樣黃秀慧你意見沒有這樣可以啦好啦好啦好啦來拍拍拍拍"},{"start":17710.936,"end":17728.631,"text":"就是隨著第一條第二條的定義他有什麼決定那往後的就跟著前面的協商結果好太好了太好了第12條通過那13條13條通過啦13條沒有異議通過第14條一樣嘛齁"},{"start":17740.094,"end":17740.614,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17754.949,"end":17776.82,"text":"主席以及各位委員大家好衛福部對於本條是保留的因為最主要的原因在於我要跟各位報告目前這個資料庫在我們國建署的TESA資料裡面就已經有了臺灣地區中老年身心社會生活狀況長期調查臺灣National Study in Aging理念針對家戶狀況"},{"start":17779.249,"end":17799.528,"text":"居住安排、社會支持、工作以及經濟狀況、衛生行為、醫療保健等等都已經有做好相關的準備了而且我跟各位報告這是50歲以上的而且這個資料庫是從民國78年就開始我們從85年開始我個人我在中中大學教書這部分我已經發表過研究了"},{"start":17801.894,"end":17817.949,"text":"做這個東西在我看來不光是疊床架屋而且是業務重疊我相信各位委員基本上也都是站在這個站在那個把握民眾的這個預算上面我認為這個部分事實上是有意義的"},{"start":17818.59,"end":17833.672,"text":"所以衛福部在這邊基本上要表示我們的立場另外第二個其實剛剛委員有提到就是說第二條的那部分我要跟各位委員報告這個在整個國際上面來說確實事實上是有問題的我剛剛再說一次"},{"start":17834.093,"end":17835.173,"text":"內容形式不對內容就不對"},{"start":17862.91,"end":17869.54,"text":"我可以表示一下衛福部的資料絕對沒有問題但是他只有健康資料這就是我們現在"},{"start":17871.98,"end":17898.901,"text":"那個差太多了我跟大家報告我跟大家報告因為我是做行銷廣告的我非常的清楚我們的社會連我們的企業當中對於50歲55家以上的投入的行銷費用的廣告費用只占到那行銷的5%也就是怎麼樣大家都不會做大家為什麼不會做因為都沒有數據"},{"start":17900.282,"end":17926.493,"text":"我們現在所有的我剛講食衣住行、娛樂你那裡有知道壯世代喜歡看什麼電影嗎你知道壯世代的消費行為是什麼嗎因為我們這個為什麼叫長壽經濟壯世代喜歡開什麼車子嗎壯世代喜歡吃什麼東西嗎喜歡穿什麼衣服嗎你有這些數據嗎你現在有的數據都只是把高齡者認為就是只要有養生養病養老的數據而已嘛"},{"start":17929.341,"end":17951.514,"text":"這就是我們現在重要要翻轉就是我們的整個政府包括去年2023年行政院提出的高齡高齡社會白皮書出來的就是養生養病養老國科會所規規劃出來的高齡政策所有就是要去醫院以及要如何去使用醫院如何方便而已我們的政府對高齡的想像"},{"start":17951.974,"end":17971.736,"text":"就是只有這些而已其他的一片空白文化部沒有高齡政策教育部沒有高齡政策金融沒有高齡、數位沒有通通都沒有認為這些人就是要準備報銷的人這就是我們現在為什麼需要壯世代的一個原因因為你們都覺得他是老人他就是銀髮族他就是高齡者"},{"start":17972.637,"end":17973.237,"text":"我覺得我們設立這個所謂的壯世代國家資料庫"},{"start":17989.807,"end":18015.887,"text":"不管你所謂的高齡中高齡這是非常非常非常的重要因為我們的平均餘命不健康的已經達到世界超高已經是第8已經是8年8年不健康的平均餘命這個政府有責任要怎麼樣協助人民啊十一住行育樂這些人你把他照顧好我們的國家就給力"},{"start":18017.288,"end":18017.348,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":18038.061,"end":18042.203,"text":"我們現在已經有160萬我們日日在增加160萬的什麼的會員我們使用的有183萬多我們日日在增加這一次臺中公務節過了我們的APP絕對會超過200萬人裡面包括什麼食衣住行娛樂包括你的繳稅全部會在那裡所以我們已經是AI的世界了要跟國際接軌我們如果有這些資料庫"},{"start":18067.016,"end":18082.06,"text":"讓大家在整個政策決策以及執行能夠更加的有效能他不是只有效率他是要有效能這個才是真正的幫助我們的人民啊沒有一個國家的政府說要成立這個國家資料庫是反對的這個邏輯太奇怪了今天我們討論的第二條也就是45歲、55歲、65歲我們現在目前國家的資料庫裡頭沒有45歲你要不要去做啊"},{"start":18095.783,"end":18096.063,"text":"謝謝,謝謝楊卓英。那個高晉你要先講嗎?"},{"start":18116.905,"end":18144.673,"text":"好我想要舉例一下真的不用站在太反對立場其實內政部我那天才跟他開居住正義的會我要怎麼定定定居住正義的政策居住住宅政策其實我們的政府是沒有做充分的行為研究甚至很被動所以其實民間團體有一直要求內政部應該要透過你去登記社會住宅或是你登記任何相關的福利政策你要去做行為研究這些年輕人究竟多少"},{"start":18145.273,"end":18157.157,"text":"多少年多少歲要住這個社會住宅他家有多少人口他的行為是什麼然後去訂定一個符合整個國家方針或者是解決居住政策的問題那相對的放到這裡來看也是同樣的概念如果我們認為這個解決高齡超高齡社會少子化等等問題我想這個的確是一個很重要的資料庫那反過來剛剛衛福部做的資料是很棒都是可以健康相關可是我想在這個部分"},{"start":18171.442,"end":18171.782,"text":"剛剛是衛福部的政務次長嗎?"},{"start":18189.557,"end":18209.634,"text":"我剛看你的態度我好像以為是您的那個屬下的人那聲音講起來有點被霸凌的感覺希望以後你們到立法院的態度好一點你沒有看到嗎在場我們委員態度都很好對你剛剛在台上那個態度甚至你走下來要跟委員那個在這爭辯的態度希望你以後改變一下這個態度好不好謝謝"},{"start":18210.615,"end":18234.047,"text":"我覺得政府建立壯世代的國家資料庫是對的我同意瓊英委員所說的那個部分那你們覺得有什麼自然難行嗎你可以來去發言一下你除了告訴我們說之前你已經有一些資料存在了那現在在這裡請你建立壯世代的國家資料庫你覺得困難度在哪裡"},{"start":18235.268,"end":18256.847,"text":"報告委員我想有兩個重點第一個我想剛剛從早上到現在我想最重要的一個部分事實上就是說我們要去正當化到底55歲這一條線牽下去的意義在什麼地方現在已經不是談這個了第二條已經過去了現在跟你談的是第15條這個基本上原則沒有確認的話基本上我們就很難再說下來"},{"start":18259.689,"end":18263.091,"text":"第15條政府應建立壯世代國家資料庫並每年統計並公布健康預期的壽命,你覺得這有什麼自愛難行不能做的?"},{"start":18280.979,"end":18303.144,"text":"包括委員我們現在目前就是說 最重要就是說我剛剛已經說了全民健保我們一定是cover全民的我們不可能只是切某一個年齡特別年齡層那你說你現在目前上位置的部分上位置的部分沒有那你已經有了這個資料庫然後再把它弄你再把它切出來不是更好嗎那你這個你會需要一個正當理由啊什麼叫正當理由 現在就在立法啊好 我的問題已經問完了所以趙偉偉今天我覺得"},{"start":18305.985,"end":18306.225,"text":"今天氣溫都還不錯"},{"start":18329.008,"end":18340.59,"text":"主席我剛剛也覺得李次講話非常奇怪什麼民國78年什麼健保開辦那一年你知道健保開辦那一年台灣出生人口多少人嗎你現在立刻回答那時候你知道台灣會這麼老化嗎你知道台灣健保會崩潰嗎我們需要討論62條嗎需要討論點數嗎需要討論分級醫療崩潰嗎"},{"start":18357.458,"end":18372.27,"text":"你拿幾十年前的東西你怎麼可能有這個完整的資料庫呢好我考你建保開辦那一年比你研究的還要更晚了好幾年民國84年台灣出生多少人口老化率多少現在呢"},{"start":18379.506,"end":18388.569,"text":"對阿說我們今天要面對的是現在阿你當初設計健保的時候有想到今天會崩潰成這個樣子嗎你有想到我們的一切的醫療指數全部都輸給韓國嗎你會想到嗎那個資料怎麼會管用呢你疫情的事情怎麼30年40年設計完全當時建立老保年紀現在是不是要變成崩潰破產你一站就麻人了"},{"start":18409.039,"end":18427.565,"text":"沒有沒有沒有你剛剛上來真的是罵人你剛剛連高金這麼溫和的委員你一上來就一副理直氣壯弄錯啦是你們沒有在監督立委立委在監督你們健保的東西我很清楚你的數字我很清楚健保裡面塞了什麼資料我都很清楚愛塞不塞自費的全部沒有"},{"start":18428.976,"end":18432.077,"text":"你知道現在台灣的自費醫療占多少嗎?你的資料是完整的嗎?我們光光控制一個藥品,他知道說病人怎麼用,對醫生都叫苦了,誰要來輸入這個資料?沒有!不要拿健保資料庫來做什麼,而且這本資料庫還拿去賣錢,很有問題的!"},{"start":18457.711,"end":18472.206,"text":"我們現在要的東西是什麼,要往未來的資料,你當年40年前設計的東西你居然覺得是可以管用的,我們現在要的東西居然是管用的,不然你執事長要我回去重新做功課"},{"start":18473.683,"end":18479.224,"text":"工研院10年前說我們的銀髮產業2025年會有3.6兆工研院有沒有在這裡去年改稱只有3000億剩下10分之1為什麼差那麼多呢?為什麼90%都不見呢?"},{"start":18501.169,"end":18518.581,"text":"因為就是沒有資料庫大家都用猜的什麼叫做引髮產業什麼想像方向都做錯大家都憑想像的在做整個沒有研究整個沒有所以所以呢最後用3000億交代3000億還不一定做得到"},{"start":18519.741,"end":18533.717,"text":"那時候說3.6兆10年前工研院說的這就是為什麼因為我們現在整個的政府對高齡化的想像就是非常的狹隘非常的狹窄今天壯世代所講"},{"start":18535.279,"end":18554.36,"text":"所在談的是一個未來倒三角形的一個社會我們要如何去建構它你們還在正三角形的把老人當少數當弱者當什麼樣的這樣的一個想像人做的都是非常微小的那你能夠解決這些危機嗎目前所現行的方法"},{"start":18554.961,"end":18555.201,"text":"黃夏旺委"},{"start":18579.364,"end":18592.555,"text":"我講一下,我不認同說中高齡就是弱者。其實中高齡很多都是我們這個產業界的精英。我剛剛有舉我爸爸80幾歲,他現在還在做工作。"},{"start":18594.617,"end":18607.473,"text":"所以我也很佩服就是說中高齡是我們社會的寶那目前我們不論是勞動部或是衛福部如果在中高齡就業這個區塊或中高齡產業這個區塊做得不足我覺得應該要再加強"},{"start":18611.678,"end":18632.685,"text":"那另外就是說剛剛呂氏有特別提到就是說我們現在有這個國家的資料庫目前國建署這邊有那可能就是針對那個健康可能國人健康的這一部分那如果剛剛這個我們吳委員所提的可能是比較針對譬如說產業或消費行為譬如說這個那個壯世代如果說以壯世代55歲以上"},{"start":18639.907,"end":18662.842,"text":"他喜歡看什麼電影他喜歡做什麼樣的運動做什麼樣的活動那這個也許是一個消費行為或者是一個產業那我我覺得當然就是說如果目前衛福部有的這個國家的資料庫有的話這個如果在其他單位或者是可以有更完善的"},{"start":18664.283,"end":18688.646,"text":"這個收集資料的地方我覺得當然是可以可是如果說這個目前衛福部已經有的這個部分如果說還要再疊床架屋然後再去設一個這個國家資料庫其實我覺得然後來那個統計公布健康預期壽命如果原本就有了有需要還要再設嗎"},{"start":18690.007,"end":18694.828,"text":"這是我比較疑問的地方好,那我們第15條不要,第15條我保留不要討論了來再來,第16條16條應該還好吧16、17、18"},{"start":18718.311,"end":18735.326,"text":"我趁這個大家還在看的時候我來跟這個行政機關做建議以剛才的第15條就看你們如果這個法律通過了你們有什麼困難應該是針對這個來發言"},{"start":18739.961,"end":18767.003,"text":"應該是針對說,如果是已經有了,那不更好嗎?法律制定有什麼關係呢?所以各自,因為在這,以剛才的第15條,也不是只有衛福部的事啦還有別的部會的資料也要建立,所以那各部會有什麼困難沒有困難,就應該要支持啦所以這個部分,我剛聽了也是有點奇怪啦,我們就回到第16條"},{"start":18772.236,"end":18773.297,"text":"第16條有沒有什麼意見?"},{"start":18798.482,"end":18822.415,"text":"我想問一下,因為55歲以上到120都可以的話,那個壯世代族群要怎麼去選出來?因為這第16條講的是民間機構我們知道嘛,一定要正式立案的嘛,團體代表,專家也知道嘛,學者一定要有在學校教書的,或是某一個領域專家,我想問一下這個,是不是可以請我們的吳委員"},{"start":18824.496,"end":18848.137,"text":"這代表群怎麼去產生這個代表?那個基本上我們已經進入一個高齡化的社會都是高齡所以我們應該在這些年齡當中其實大家都想要都在進行重新的定義剛才提了"},{"start":18849.358,"end":18868.248,"text":"提了一個就是65歲也不叫做老人了啦然後45歲不叫中高齡這些都要禁所以呢壯世代很重要大家在思考這個問題的時候都從權益法的角度就是好像定幾歲定一個什麼的話都可以有什麼福利大家從頭看到尾到現在這裡"},{"start":18869.369,"end":18883.697,"text":"都沒有任何的權益沒有任何一個利益的分配所以大家他是一個倡議倡議的話就是各部會應該朝這個方向朝這個光明的方向朝這個美麗的未來去方向"},{"start":18885.899,"end":18905.474,"text":"去規劃他的政策跟產業政策所以呢沒有沒有影響大家一直擔憂的那些事情都不在這個地方我是問的說這怎麼選出來壯世代的族群代表這到底是55歲要一個60歲要一個我不知道你這邊因為開會嘛"},{"start":18911.719,"end":18926.167,"text":"總是要有一個你既然能寫出來應該你有你的想像嘛就是這個族群代表要選55歲的還是選65歲還是選80歲的因為你說要有一個壯世代族群代表那要多少人呢"},{"start":18927.798,"end":18950.053,"text":"我也不知道還是到時候這個就是每一個年齡層有一個我就不太懂啊所以要請教因為當初是你這邊寫的嘛現在這裡就定義55加以上嘛是要每一個年齡層都有一個嗎這些細則當然到規定的時候就會在行政院成立這一些部會的時候再去討論嘛施行細則嘛"},{"start":18951.926,"end":18953.648,"text":"民間機構是合法立案的民間組織嗎?這個壯世代的族群代表是什麼意思?"},{"start":18970.376,"end":18995.432,"text":"所以現在壯世代的族群當然就是我們沒有必要再去劃分什麼叫做初老、中老、老老或者是怎麼樣以後應該講的我們對於高齡是一種很正式的你過了55歲以上然後就是一個進入我們所謂的高齡的社會這個所過程"},{"start":18997.333,"end":19007.549,"text":"我們現在整個社會是為55歲以前所打造的社會55歲以後的社會是一片沙漠一片空白我們現在努力的就是要去建構這一些"},{"start":19009.318,"end":19031.95,"text":"建構這一些 其實所謂的壯世代 包括年輕人也是壯世代以後所有的年齡都是壯世代 都要壯起來不是每一個當中 因為它不涉及到權益的分配它不涉及到你所定義當中的權益的分配好像某一種身份 某一種年齡 然後就具備什麼樣的權益"},{"start":19033.991,"end":19049.075,"text":"好不要討論這條保留第17條這個有涉基金這個更麻煩第17條就保留啦不要討論啦第18條保留第18條保留好第19條"},{"start":19067.475,"end":19092.172,"text":"好第4條要保留我覺得這個吳委員你自己要思考一下就是說黃毓民他堅持的就是中高齡跟高齡如果能把他涵蓋進來剛剛吳委員講的全部都是壯世代那就0到100你說的45歲以上中高齡嘛那65歲高齡"},{"start":19100.814,"end":19118.802,"text":"好啦好啦第20條這這這保留要保留喔好算了21條21條這被公布算了也是保留啦好啦好啦"},{"start":19120.512,"end":19127.575,"text":"委員吳春城等42人擬具的《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》審查一大堆保留有保留的部分"},{"start":19143.683,"end":19168.388,"text":"照樣審查完略,擬具審查報告提報院會討論,院會討論本案時由書招紀委員親前補充說明,必須交由黨團協商。本次會議議事錄授權由主席核定後確定。"},{"start":19170.148,"end":19173.007,"text":"本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":19196.425,"end":19204.462,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19215.641,"end":19216.481,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19241.318,"end":19242.239,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"16328","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16328","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609ff4632c59044642690a0be61fea14818a82e37f9ba35fd775cc818653d3ec8f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會「行使司法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案」公聽會（事由：第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會「行使司法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-02","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-02T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-02T11:55:59+08:00","duration":12329,"影片長度":"03:25:29","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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最大行政權的人可以不向國會報告不接受代表人民立委的質詢又哪有不接受代表人民立委的調查監督可以在國會殿堂裡說假話不提供資訊或提出假消息圖黑資料、藐視立法院、藐視人民而不必接受處罰的全世界沒有這樣的"},{"start":2159.996,"end":2183.378,"text":"憲政的第三個核心理念是什麼呢就是責任政治就是行使國家最高統治權、最大行政權的人要對人民負責這也就是說行使國家最高統治權、最大行政權的人在用人、用權、辦事等方面都要向人民報告要對人民負責"},{"start":2184.861,"end":2199.657,"text":"故大法官吳征就說過總統已經是最高行政首長了如果不必向代表人民的立法院報告並接受執行那是違背責任政治核心理念的"},{"start":2201.087,"end":2214.58,"text":"大法官先告國會改革法案幾乎全部違憲的這個判決讓賴清德跟蔡文一樣淪為一個在憲政上能夠講話像放屁一樣的人"},{"start":2215.956,"end":2243.874,"text":"蔡英文對人民所承喜諾的憲政改革、國會改革、司法改革、交易改革、財政距離改革、稅制公益改革、政府效能改革、解決世代貧富差異等全部都跳票就像憲政屁話一樣隨風而逝同樣的賴清德說要到立法院做報告現在卻以國會改革法案違憲的這個大法官判決不是報告"},{"start":2245.037,"end":2254.583,"text":"完全漠視在用人用權辦事等方面要對人民報告要對人民負責的憲政核心理念又"},{"start":2256.218,"end":2283.276,"text":"賴清德2019年6月4日接受媒體專訪時表示未來如果當選總統要結合朝野推動憲政改革將台灣改為內閣雙首長制除了行政院長任命一定要立法院同意外還要讓立委兼任部會首長避免執政與民意脫節但這些是不是也像蔡英文的憲政屁話一樣嗎隨風而逝"},{"start":2285.928,"end":2313.886,"text":"現在就要談談耐心者所提出的大法官提名人他們可以得到人民的信任並同意嗎當然是不可以啊就像我書面發言所說的默示憲政災難的法律人不事任大法官例如被提名為司法院院長的張文貞是國會改革事業案民進黨陣營指定的鑑定人強烈主張國會改革迴憲"},{"start":2315.868,"end":2343.265,"text":"這是非常離譜的一個人被提名的司法院院長：副院長的姚立明則是耐心的總統進行總部的主委難怪基層法官會炸鍋在法官論壇表示總統事先報恩選舉報得真快又大法官提名的廖福特承認民進黨仲裁委員會主委而更是離譜"},{"start":2344.491,"end":2371.328,"text":"前幾天還跟我打電話他都是我的學生幾十年沒聯絡那為了我要來這個公聽會他還打電話真是不知道他是什麼樣一個人政治大學法律系教授何耐傑是一個太陽花懸殞富豪者可明顯看出他們親近民進黨的政治傾向至於劉靜儀、張文貞、陳映彩多軍附和民進黨黨綱的廢死主張"},{"start":2373.376,"end":2401.122,"text":"但在蔡英文掌控國會多數騎士前面執政的八年期間並未督促民進黨人修改刑法規定意圖由大法官凌駕民意、夜處待跑的廢時那這群法律人當上大法官後會尊重民意、健全法治嗎?這八年來憲政已經被蔡英文"},{"start":2402.527,"end":2429.849,"text":"賴清德無情的破毀但賴清德所提出的這些大法官、副院、提名人對憲政的破毀卻盡若寒蟬沒有吭聲相反的還要助賴清德跟蔡英文為虐那他們也恐怕會像現任的大法官一樣成為咬壞國民主權布袋的憲政老鼠"},{"start":2430.987,"end":2451.027,"text":"立法院絕不應同意他們出任大法官現在還有幾分鐘我特別講一講過去的一些大法官所建立的這些老百姓對大法官的信心已經破壞掉了在7月29號的時候"},{"start":2452.984,"end":2480.843,"text":"我接到電話然後就是一位我們年近近百的已經將要百歲的一個前任大法官翁岳昇他要我到他的住家去談一談因為他在聯合報看到我的文章然後他說要我去談談然後他就談一下他們過去他說他是一個鄉下的熊谷小孩從台南他第一次看到報紙是在台南"},{"start":2481.974,"end":2482.914,"text":"副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":2505.444,"end":2530.358,"text":"他就考進那個師範考進師範以後然後就師範師篆師篆畢業以後他就去服務服務完以後就認真地在考上那個台大然後轉變了他的身份地位他說他很感謝過去的政府啊讓這個窮人可以翻身然後他跟我提到他他很有幸的參加了500多號的大法官四字的解號"},{"start":2531.82,"end":2555.92,"text":"他做印象最深刻他做了一些事情第一個就是他提到了他這個審檢分立還有這個國會改革國會那個民意代表不能繼續再改的所以他這個他做到了他對於憲政的制衡呢非常的重視但是現在呢"},{"start":2557.65,"end":2572.676,"text":"這些大法官 背離他的基本上的信念甚至被林作水罵過林作水是民進黨的前任委員 罵得很兇啊所以這些人 讓那個太陽從西邊出來的大法官真是不要臉"},{"start":2574.13,"end":2591.724,"text":"所以我們可以看到過去的前輩還另外一個就是王哲健是我的老師我在9月7號跟他打個電話他對於我們現行的這個大法官的制度認為這已經過時了而且非常不良應該要全面的改革"},{"start":2593.121,"end":2619.8,"text":"那麼我這裡就談到過去的這些法律人都非常的注意這個憲政的這個破壞如果破壞的話他一定會改良他一定會利用那個司法大法官司法院大法官去改善他現在呢是助紂為虐所以現在所提出的這幾個大法官人選立法院不應該同意他們出任大法官謝謝大家"},{"start":2621.398,"end":2647.538,"text":"謝謝林滕耀教授的發言我們補充接下來我們請劉素冰教授請發言謝謝好謝謝主席很高興有這樣的機會來進行這樣的一個公聽會的參與我們知道憲法法庭或者是說大法官最大的功能是做什麼就是做違憲審查"},{"start":2649.479,"end":2665.625,"text":"維新審查是在民主國家基於防禦性民主的需求而成立的作為一個憲法的守護者最重要的必須要具備有專業的素養而且還必須有操守"},{"start":2666.625,"end":2667.246,"text":"民主國家的違憲審查制度"},{"start":2689.165,"end":2709.234,"text":"還有在書面上面的資料也有在說美國是屬於分散型的是各級的法院都會對判決的案件或者是說法條做違憲的審查行使在德國的部分它是另外設立了憲法法院來去行使產生是全任制"},{"start":2710.334,"end":2736.47,"text":"台灣本身是承襲德國體制經由大法官組成憲法法庭適用立法院提名、立法院同意的任命制來進行我們看看台灣的憲法訴訟審理案件當中有哪些項目這些項目當中依照的是在"},{"start":2738.513,"end":2739.854,"text":"《行使司法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案》"},{"start":2752.455,"end":2769.635,"text":"法規範審查、機關權限的爭議、總統、副總統的彈劾案還有政黨違憲審查、地方自治保障等等這幾項前面的五項當中是非常政治性的因為它會涉及到的是政黨的利益還包括的是地方跟中央的關係另外的"},{"start":2772.878,"end":2773.339,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2803.259,"end":2831.117,"text":"我們看到過去的這個情況在2008年到2024年的這個情況之下因為馬英九跟蔡總統他有這個兩任的連任那他們大法官的人選相對於就是相對的會受到一個單一政黨的這樣的一個偏好所影響那這樣子可能會產生就是說有時候特別保守或者是特別激進或是甚至會有時候保護執政黨利益的這種情況出現"},{"start":2832.558,"end":2854.943,"text":"今年2024年1月13日之後有了不一樣的狀況他出現的是一個少數的總統他目前的情況在立法院是屬於分立總統的形式這樣所形成的情況是行政跟立法的衝突就會特別的明顯當然跟中央跟地方這種爭議也會比較多"},{"start":2857.704,"end":2878.632,"text":"因此會申請違憲審查的情況也預期是會在這一個任期當中是多的我們也看到是在2022年等於說是民國111年的時候1月4號開始憲法訴訟法生效這邊就特別強調它是一個全面的法庭化"},{"start":2879.552,"end":2881.013,"text":"法官的判決形式"},{"start":2895.585,"end":2910.524,"text":"那當然他的司法化也必須要去解決所謂的爭端那這時候呢大法官他越超越黨派獨立行使審判權的這樣的一個就顯得更為的必要了那我們繼續看看那我剛才已經說了"},{"start":2911.605,"end":2935.817,"text":"台灣的憲法的審查制度是師承德國的這邊我們就來對照一下德國的憲法法院的法官憲法法院法裡面對於裡面的法官資格是怎麼樣認定的就像剛才林滕耀教授有提到說可能都必須要做一些改革那我們就來提供德國的經驗就在於第一個我們看到的是在"},{"start":2942.81,"end":2956.296,"text":"我具備他從法官的這個資格條件來說起那德國呢他是參眾兩院來去選來去選出這個兩個院的各八名的這個大法官所以注意喔他是由兩個院參議院跟眾議院去選舉出來的"},{"start":2959.778,"end":2976.228,"text":"他們要求的條件,因為他竟然是最高的法院,所以他必須具備法官法裡面的法官資格另外,兩個院當中必須有三個人是聯邦最高法院的法官或是他必須具備有聯邦議員的候選資格"},{"start":2982.051,"end":3002.205,"text":"如果說他本身是聯邦議員的話呢聯邦眾議員的話呢他就必須是也是過去是有法學而且是有法官背景的這個狀況好那這個代表的是說他因為他因應到這個建馬法院的這個裁判的話他必須要有辯證跟他的這個過程他都必須熟悉所以他作為一個司法審查機關必須有這個條件"},{"start":3003.646,"end":3015.37,"text":"台灣在司法院的組織法當中第4條當中羅列這6項但是我覺得這些條件事實上都還比我們現在法官法當中的條件更為寬鬆門檻是比較低的"},{"start":3019.872,"end":3027.838,"text":"第6項是研究法學、富有政治經驗、生育卓著我整理了目前被提名的七位大法官當中有具備法官資格的部分"},{"start":3045.151,"end":3064.136,"text":"就只有應該就只有大家可以看到在右邊的部分法官或是律師資格這就只有三位就是這個何碩傑這個王碧芳跟這個劉靜儀就有司法官考官的資格這一部分來看看那這部分的資料完全是根據立法院給的這個公報裡面的內容去呈現的"},{"start":3068.297,"end":3084.345,"text":"第二部分德國憲法法院的法官資格必須要超出黨派來獨立行使職權德國的部分是透過參眾議院選出來的他符合的地方跟中央的關係還有政黨在"},{"start":3085.786,"end":3113.905,"text":"中立院的實力顯出一種協調狀況那在台灣呢我們可以看到在七位的這個被提名當中有人是當過台北市的市長的競選總幹事他也曾經當過民進黨的總統候選人的競選總幹事這關係就非常的顯著政黨傾向那另外也有人是擔任執政黨的仲裁委員會的這個主委的這個情況那大家就可以看到在右邊裡面的這邊的顯示就呈現出來"},{"start":3115.966,"end":3135.639,"text":"第三個部分還有年齡的規範為什麼呢?因為你要學一個大法官他本身需要非常燒腦的工作是一個勞力勞動的工作所以他必須要具備相當的精力在這個情況之下德國是規定說超過68歲就要強制退休我們台灣是沒有規範可是大家可以看到是在這次的"},{"start":3144.145,"end":3170.291,"text":"這個年齡當中被提名當中有人高達72歲齁然後其他這部分齁大家也有將近60歲那如果要任期8年的話這個部分可能要斟酌一下齁這部分好那我們看看第4點呢德國的憲法法院法當中還針對特殊領域的專才這邊有一些規範齁那為什麼會有這樣的規範呢在於說他特別是針對的司法與消費者保護部裡面特別重視他認為說這個地方呢是"},{"start":3172.552,"end":3183.615,"text":"對於目前在人權或者是保護是特別重要的所以他們就交由這個部會提交法官的人選建議名單給參眾2月的黨團拿去作為一個參考提名的標準那台灣並沒有這樣的規定"},{"start":3190.437,"end":3210.528,"text":"但是我國省市我國的情況之下是在我國對於消費者保護、數位保護、勞動者跟婦幼的保護的這部分上是極度的不足但是在目前提名的7位的被提名當中都偏向憲法、行政法跟刑法類的顯示出來有相當大的沒有去可以反映到保護弱勢的這種情況"},{"start":3212.149,"end":3233.647,"text":"這邊也看到這個資訊是在這上面出來大家可以看到這個底壁的資料上面就是我剛剛所說的憲法還有刑法的部分還有行政法的部分最後這個地方就是說提供德國的這個經驗來作為說未來修法或是在各位立法委員他們在提名就是在做審同意權的行使的時候能夠做一個參考那就謝謝各位"},{"start":3235.678,"end":3257.229,"text":"謝謝劉書斌教授,謝謝林漢。我要補充介紹一下,剛才已經到國民黨的吳宗憲委員,他可能現在跑去質詢,等一下再回來。現在在鍾嘉斌委員,民進黨的,另外民進黨的書記長蔡易瑜委員也都到現場了,再次感謝。接下來第三位,我們請林俊宏教授,請表達寶貴的意見,謝謝。"},{"start":3262.98,"end":3280.285,"text":"主席、在場的各位委員、各位先進大家好今天很榮幸可以來這邊參與這一次的公聽會我想這一次關於大法官同意權的行使其實在這段時間國內的氛圍其實是一個非常非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":3281.565,"end":3295.973,"text":"畢竟最近這段時間又涉及到憲法訴訟法的修法的爭議那到底我們的憲法法庭能不能夠正常的運作我想在這件事情上在大法官的人士同意權的行使絕對是一個非常關鍵而且非常重要的事情"},{"start":3297.054,"end":3315.536,"text":"那我想先一開始先說明的是說關於大法官這個位置的一個角色我想大家應該都很清楚大法官在我們的憲法裡面的地位他其實是我們的憲法守護者那可是其實我們最近會聽到一些聲音或者是有一些不同的意見"},{"start":3316.637,"end":3337.794,"text":"對於大法官的想法可能有一些不一樣的概念因為他們認為說大法官的部分是不是要全然的要配合的民意或者是說他們對於憲法的解釋100%都不能跟民意有所違背或者是與民意的或多數的意見有不同的看法"},{"start":3338.675,"end":3354.716,"text":"那我想這個部分可能是不是誤解了大法官他本身的特質大法官本身的特質就有一種抗多數決的一種特質那之所以大法官會有抗多數決的特質在於是說因為我們憲法本質上是一種開放性的規範"},{"start":3355.877,"end":3371.676,"text":"那也就是說在一定程度的標準或者是在一定的架構之下大法官可以在這個規範的內容內去選擇他的憲法價值跟理念那這也是我們國家或者是我們的憲法上賦予大法官的一個職責"},{"start":3373.078,"end":3402.23,"text":"那我們要如何去控制這個部分的大法官該如何去行使這樣的事情會不會濫刑的部分呢我想第一個部分我們在制度的設計上第一個部分當然是我們在這邊同意權的行使我們在讓他上任之前對他對於憲法理念的闡述對於憲法相關議題的辯證然後我們透過我們的國會代表們進行審查去理解說我們每一位大法官對於憲法價值的看法是什麼"},{"start":3403.01,"end":3422.242,"text":"那第二個部分它的核心是什麼?第二個部分它的核心在於是大法官們對於憲法判決的論述跟內容我們必須要去看待每個憲法的判決它不是一個單純的一個結論而已喔它必須要有一個論辯式的結構跟充分的說理"},{"start":3422.822,"end":3439.667,"text":"那這也是我們目前大法官們或者是我們憲法訴訟的制度所在進行的我們在憲法訴訟法制度通過之後我們開始了公開審理我們引進了外部的專家的證人讓外部專家證人可以在法庭上表示意見我們的大法官可以在法庭進行詢答"},{"start":3441.047,"end":3461.583,"text":"也就是說其實透過憲法法庭審理的流程或者是整個程序我們可以看得到或者是我們可以聽得到大法官對於每個憲法價值的選擇他的依據是什麼他的標準是什麼那甚至於他即便是不同意我們的憲法的主文或者是相關的意見大法官他還是可以出具"},{"start":3461.943,"end":3474.14,"text":"不同意見書或協同意見書我想如果大家有關心我們的憲法法庭或者大法官所做的裁判這幾年的協同意見書不同意見書的數量其實非常非常的多那這個部分我想"},{"start":3475.228,"end":3502.463,"text":"是必須要先認清這樣子的一個基本的事實那第二個部分是我想要特別提的是在審理的時候其實剛剛或者是從歷來我們一直聽到一些聲音說我們對於大法官的選擇上我們只要注意到說他過去曾經發表了某個意見過去他曾經擔任了某個職務過去他參與了某個活動"},{"start":3503.547,"end":3515.476,"text":"就等於這個人不適任我想人是一個非常社會化的動物每個人都一定有參與的活動跟他參與的生活領域範圍"},{"start":3519.042,"end":3536.192,"text":"不可能有一個人他是一個從來不參與任何活動不表達任何的意見在社會上都跟大家講說我是一個中立客觀的人然後最後被我們的國家機關挑選進來成為大法官的被提名人"},{"start":3537.21,"end":3564.181,"text":"他畢竟必然一定是在社會上有一些意見的表達參與了相關的活動或者是相關的團體然後大家覺得說這位大法官這位人選其實是非常的專業而且他的憲法價值接受肯定或者是表現上深獲大家的讚許在這種狀況下才會有可能被提進來然後由所有的大法有國會們來進行審查"},{"start":3566.602,"end":3588.664,"text":"所以這個是一個本質上理所當然的事情那其實在之前的聲音我們注意到的就是說我們常常看到的是因為他有單一的意見單一的聲音單一參加單一的團體就認為說噢不適任可是我們有真的好好的去想過說他除了當這些特定事件的單一聲音單一的活動參與"},{"start":3591.591,"end":3619.462,"text":"這種狀況他有影響到他對於憲法的價值的捍衛或者是他的憲法的論述嗎我們應該要討論的不是他對於憲法價值的捍衛跟憲法的論述到底內容到底是不是合理是不是充分是不是完整嗎這個不是我們應該要審理大法官所要做的事情嗎那一再的用類似貼標籤的模式就跟大家講說你參加過什麼所以你不是任"},{"start":3620.612,"end":3630.96,"text":"你講過什麼?所以你不適任?我覺得這樣子的一個審查邏輯跟審查模式是對於我們的人民是非常非常的不負責任的"},{"start":3632.418,"end":3658.9,"text":"我認為國會議員在進行相關大法官的審查的時候應該要具體去了解的是我們這一些大法官的被提名人他們過去的人權履歷是什麼他們的人權操守是什麼他們的學識他們的專業經驗他們的憲政人權理念是什麼這一些才是我們要找到合適的大法官所應該要做應該要去找的而不是先告訴我們說他擔任過什麼"},{"start":3660.49,"end":3678.662,"text":"當任過什麼我覺得這件事情當然重要我們對於基本的履歷這些是很重要的我們的司法院組織法也有規定了一些相關的行事規範那這些行事規範其實我觀察了這次的大法官提名人從形式上這些規範是符合司法院組織法的相關規範的那"},{"start":3681.553,"end":3690.518,"text":"在接下來的步就是那各位國會議員們你們想要怎麼樣去了解他的對於憲政價值的一些看法"},{"start":3692.482,"end":3713.774,"text":"其實我們大法官所處理的事情其實非常的多元除了前一陣子比較有爭議的憲政機關的爭議以外其實有98%的案件類型是在處理人民基本權利也就是說他必須要去考量到人民基本權利在整個憲政體制架構下該如何理解該如何解釋"},{"start":3715.137,"end":3743.967,"text":"那我想我們這一些判決們非常非常的多我就不再一一的去羅列或者去念這一些東西可是這邊我要特別提到的就是說我們在選擇大法官的時候不是一直去看說今天這個大法官是誰提名的或者是說他過去比較傾向哪一邊重點是他對於人權的價值憲法的價值的捍衛到底談了什麼事情"},{"start":3745.831,"end":3767.196,"text":"所以我覺得這個是國會議員應該要去注意的第二步接下來要談的就是說我們審查的界限是什麼那審查的界限其實我們觀察這次立法院執行司法被大法官這一次被宣告違憲之後那回到觀察我們的委員們怎麼去了解我們的大法官"},{"start":3767.836,"end":3785.621,"text":"我想今天就是一個很棒的一個狀態今天就是一個審查會那接下來更進一步的審查會應該是透過立法委員們、審查小組們去了解每一位大法官到底在想什麼我覺得比較核心的是實質的提問而不是形式上給予一定的標籤"},{"start":3786.841,"end":3811.344,"text":"當然我們可以從文獻上我們去觀察美國他們在審他們的憲法法院的法官的時候他們會有基本上還是可以問當然回不回答跟我們的大法官的理解應該我自己的理解上沒有差太多這個是你要不要被選任的問題那個是責任的問題可是你不能去問說你對於特定的判決還沒有做出來的判決的看法這個應該是司法倫理的問題"},{"start":3812.225,"end":3813.705,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3840.451,"end":3858.257,"text":"無關的事項我覺得也不應該是國會議員所應該要去接觸的因為這個部分還是大法官在113的憲判9也講得很清楚雖然他們來參與這邊做審查基本上他們的隱私權、基本人格權這些基本權利還是受到我們憲法所保障的"},{"start":3858.911,"end":3867.114,"text":"所以在這樣子的範疇事實下都不應該特別去問那所以好時間到我先講到這邊好了謝謝院長各位大家好"},{"start":3889.875,"end":3892.099,"text":"很高興國會能夠讓我有這個機會在國會的殿堂來參加這個公聽會"},{"start":3898.112,"end":3919.995,"text":"各位都知道我本身不是學法律但是我今天所以能夠過來也敢過來只要是以我一個當事人的身份我相信以我這個被害人所經歷的過程可以給審查有一些參考"},{"start":3921.991,"end":3949.15,"text":"案情我會簡略明天12月3號就是我太太遇害10週年在10年前的那一天我太太在高雄市最熱鬧的哈羅市場上午去買菜等到我下班還沒回家我去在哈羅市場找到她在還沒找到她之前我先去報案"},{"start":3951.141,"end":3963.782,"text":"警察告訴我你最好再回去車子裡面因為我已經找到車子可是車子看不到因為天已經黑了看不到車子裡面的情形我才去報案"},{"start":3965.094,"end":3981.549,"text":"受了警察的嘱咐叫我再回去查結果正好學尋幫我找我太太的我妹妹跟我妹夫因為那一天晚上我太太要分發她團購的骨坑的有機"},{"start":3983.388,"end":4010.98,"text":"紐丁找不到我太太,也一起協尋,後來找到了找到車子的地方,我妹夫手電動力照,說他在車子的後座腳踏板的地方我們趕快要搶救,趕快把車門打開正在打開,那一幕我就不再多說,警察來了,就封鎖現場這是過程,我相信經歷過這樣一個晴天霹靂"},{"start":4013.573,"end":4037.116,"text":"所受的感受應該是難以忘懷好 那麼我要跟各位報告歷經這十年我們從一審、二審、更一到更三五次的判死刑到最後最高法院根據今天討論有關係的大法官的第八號"},{"start":4038.598,"end":4067.644,"text":"的視線根據這個案子認為我們的案子是非犯罪嚴重之罪所以從死刑改判從死刑改判無期徒刑我首先要跟各位報告改判無期台灣的無期大家都很清楚就是有期這是第一點第二點他的無期其實就是對我們家的無期的痛苦的宣判"},{"start":4069.182,"end":4092.071,"text":"這是我先要告訴各位以我親身的經歷那麼這個過程裡面我經歷了這麼多的審判我感到以下的非常的不平等那麼也是提出來給各位做參考第一點我從更衣審開始"},{"start":4093.809,"end":4121.772,"text":"對方是由法律輔助基金會派的三位辯護人本人是犯罪被害人保護協會所屬法務部的派我一個這是不公平光實現上來講就是不公平了這是第一點第二點性侵案我們的案子是經過性侵然後是他"},{"start":4125.682,"end":4154.027,"text":"槌擊我太太的頭部槌擊之後她想要開車車子都發動了可是呢發不動不曉得按鎖在哪裡又再問然後呢又再槌這個從行車紀錄器裡面我們都聽到槌擊的聲音然後我太太的學生攜帶的小花包拉鍊被拉開的聲音零錢散落在車子裡面的聲音"},{"start":4155.233,"end":4159.483,"text":"等等然後呢最後我們"},{"start":4160.819,"end":4187.882,"text":"在一審還有爭審的時候的資料對方都說搶了多少錢多少錢可是到最後法庭要我們提出尤其是最高法院發回更審的主要理由就是要我們提出我們被搶2000塊的證據請問你被搶了你買的東西都不一定知道是2000塊何況是被搶的人而且已經死亡了就是我"},{"start":4189.036,"end":4213.278,"text":"首先趕到不平等的地方最後在9月20號大法官事件案第8號公布之後最高法院馬上兩個禮拜馬上火速的判決我太太是非犯罪嚴重之罪犯人是非犯罪嚴重之罪所以"},{"start":4216.055,"end":4240.448,"text":"改判無期徒刑這是第一點請問什麼叫做最嚴重之罪大法官有沒有辦法幫我們解釋人權裡面應該含有被害人的人權可是我發現我們的被害人尤其是被害人的遺屬我是身為告示人在法庭上完全沒有地位我沒有"},{"start":4243.286,"end":4267.179,"text":"決論權我沒有預見權我要講話還要到最後一次被法官被動的指定我才有機會講話講完話覺得不夠我要補述書完全沒有接受到回應美國日本有所謂的終身監禁也有保留死刑我不知道我們的"},{"start":4269.586,"end":4297.532,"text":"得法律為什麼就不會要保留這樣的終身監禁至少還可以安慰我們被害人的遺屬為了台灣沒有辦法下法美國跟日本最高法院的法官可以在庭上引導被告的辯護人說你2000塊的證據你怎麼沒有找到是我幫你找到的"},{"start":4300.151,"end":4327.011,"text":"今天在國家的最高殿堂我一定要而且這個法院的法官目前在地方法院當一個院長中間是不是有什麼貓膩我不知道最高法院的五位何以廷的法官可以重複的審理而不必迴避這個法律我不懂所以我提出來給大家做思考性侵殺人搶劫可以分開審理來量刑嗎"},{"start":4331.158,"end":4356.831,"text":"搶車車子沒有開走就是沒有構成搶劫就是搶劫未遂嗎?被告在檢警真審模擬陳述犯案的內容的時候在各個法院審理中後面他就翻工了請問你怎麼樣認定是真是假是不是剛開始的真審的過程還有一審的資料是最明確"},{"start":4359.932,"end":4381.245,"text":"犯罪人記憶最深刻的時候是不是更應該可以相信結果他只要一翻工大家都不認了很奇怪請問大家思考一下預謀殺人是怎麼樣的認定是預謀對象我要殺你就一定殺你才是預謀嗎還是預謀的工具有準備工具就是預謀"},{"start":4383.684,"end":4406.537,"text":"還是以上都要有我們不知道因為我們這個案子就是以非預謀殺人來做判定改成無期的精神鑑定心理衡鑑要多少次是不是可以指定醫院可以指定良心的那個學者來做良心我們就是這樣非常的很奇怪"},{"start":4409.537,"end":4432.695,"text":"被害方如何提出被搶錢的數目 剛才有提到假如無法被提出來 是不是就是搶劫未遂 或者是沒有搶何衛廷的定義 是不是多數決 我不知道因為法官 大法官講你要判死 一定要每一個法官通通沒有"},{"start":4433.923,"end":4460.474,"text":"統統要贊成判死才有有五個法官判全部全訴決就是二分之一的五次方三十二分之一當然全部不判死的機率也是三十二分之一我講的意思是全訴都同意是不是違背了何義廷的精神所在最後我要勉勵了"},{"start":4463.423,"end":4490.773,"text":"關其所矣、查其所有、查其所安、視其所有、人焉所哉剛才有律師講你不能以前那是所作所為我倒是認為以前的所作所為正好可以當作你審驗他的一個參考我們期望的是臺灣的司法不要崩潰你親民崇高的人格專業就是我們萬民所依賴的謝謝"},{"start":4495.023,"end":4498.802,"text":"辛苦了張建仁教授辛苦真的是非常非常的"},{"start":4500.698,"end":4528.225,"text":"聽了很感動很難過好接下來我們請登記第5號的洪偉聖教授請給我們寶貴意見謝謝謝謝主席還有在座的各位委員各位先進那我想聽了剛才張教授的這個發言是非常遺憾但是這個他提到的非常多的問題事實上是大院之權關於刑法實體法或者是刑事訴訟法關於被害人保護之間的"},{"start":4529.786,"end":4554.645,"text":"可以進一步的再精進調整的問題那跟大法官是不是必然有關這個可以再思考尤其是我在這邊可能要比較斗膽的提醒一點就是說民主憲政國家設定司法權之所以不將報復或者是說應對的工具或手交給被害人我相信在憲政上是有特定的考量"},{"start":4555.505,"end":4580.278,"text":"那這個是我在開始之前做的一點點小小的感想跟提醒那其實今天來也要再次的感謝大院在繼去年之後再次的邀請來參加這個大法官的同意權的審查會那其實在來之前這個我一直在想一些問題就是說當然這一陣子我想社會上或者是大院對於學位是非常的這個在意啦那我自己其實"},{"start":4581.418,"end":4602.359,"text":"因為也有一些學位但是我一直在出門前我的女兒她是國中那她問我說爸爸你要來這邊做什麼我說我這個是大法官的審查會那她說我們現在學校的公民課正好在教這個總統提名立法院同意那到底這一次的大法官或司法院院長的提名遇到了什麼問題"},{"start":4603.96,"end":4620.644,"text":"我就在想說我或許對他應該用幾個不需要學位來思考的問題讓他來懂這一次的爭議來思考這些問題那我就想到一件事情或許你要說我蹭棒球就是說聽台灣這個風潮其實現在還意猶未盡"},{"start":4625.845,"end":4639.023,"text":"我自己問了一件事情如果說這一次的Team Taiwan的對職員名單必須要經過賴總統的提名立法院同意後通過在現在的這樣子的政治氛圍之下我們會是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":4642.369,"end":4642.389,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4659.722,"end":4670.8,"text":"我們的台灣隊長陳捷憲他是賴總統始終支持的同意隊來自於同意隊的我覺得他不會通過因為我們會用這些理由來考慮這個同意權"},{"start":4674.017,"end":4693.973,"text":"其實坦白說,這是大家起個門心自問,就是說是不是現在我們的國會,或者是政治生態,我也不覺得是單純的國會的問題啦那甚至是堅稱在記者會上說自己是台灣隊的潘潔凱,他也是來自於同一隊,又是賴總統支持的球隊,我覺得他也不會通過"},{"start":4695.865,"end":4712.276,"text":"那這個情況,到底台灣現在的政治僵局打算怎麼辦?更不用說領隊的蔡會長,他是我們民主進步黨的立法委員要通過同意權我是覺得不可能那我們這樣子的台灣隊還成隊嗎?"},{"start":4715.683,"end":4731.895,"text":"那剛才其實幾位委員也提到其實坦白說我剛才坐在這裡的時候覺得說好像我時間跟地點都跑錯地方為什麼說時間跑錯地方呢?立法院職權行使法的這個憲法法庭的辯論其實大家都花了很多的時間也都很精彩的論辯那沒有想到在這邊還要繼續再做論辯"},{"start":4734.957,"end":4753.896,"text":"實行案的論辯其實不只是有憲法法庭的延遲辯論一整天甚至還有其他的很多的討論那在這邊好像也要再談這個事情憲法訴訟法我相信大院也會另外辦公聽會審查那在這邊也要談所以我覺得說我的10分鐘好像要"},{"start":4755.258,"end":4775.819,"text":"這個跑錯時間跑錯棚但是我還是要談一件事情就是說現在的憲法訴訟法的修正當然民間已經有很多的不適當的聲音但是我只要再問一件事情就是說這一次其實在民間我看也有一些這個先進發表文章討論說沒有關係我們可以提高門檻"},{"start":4777.341,"end":4790.235,"text":"或者是說10個人或9個人沒有關係反正我只要通過一個或兩個讓他還是可以運作就好了這個其實也是可以用一個很簡單的類比棒球賽9個人就可以打了"},{"start":4790.885,"end":4810.357,"text":"那是不是我們就給聽台灣9個球員的名單就夠了更不用說以現在媒體揭露出來部分委員可能屬一的人選譬如說黃碧芳法官我也看到有針對張文正院長表示認可的"},{"start":4812.538,"end":4838.721,"text":"但是各位要想到我們給9個人認為人數足夠但是可以不考慮守備位置嗎?我們可以給9個投手嗎?我們可以給9個補手嗎?我們可以給或者是說我們可以給足9個人但是裡面有兩位投手卻沒有補手嗎?這個是非常需要嚴肅思考的問題所以我回頭來看這一次的大法官的這個審查我大概有幾樣的思考第一個就是說"},{"start":4840.191,"end":4857.548,"text":"其實這一次的大法官的被批評的身手當然其中因為我目前是台灣法學會的理事長其實台灣法學會要有這個台灣這個名字得來不易事實上也是大法官的這個貢獻過去我們是不能夠用台灣的名字來叫台灣的任何的人民團體的"},{"start":4858.989,"end":4886.181,"text":"我目前因為是台灣法學會的理事長也是台灣國際法學會的秘書長所以針對其中的幾位被提名人譬如說張文貞教授、何賴傑教授、廖福特教授或者是劉靜儀教授都因為在學會上的互動有比較多的觀察或許可以提供給大院做觀察第一個就是說在首備位置上面如果看現在仍然在憲法法庭當中的大法官"},{"start":4887.594,"end":4901.059,"text":"如果要說跟憲法這次憲法法庭跟憲法公法專攻的目前說起來只剩下這個蔡中正大法官一位勉強可能還有這個楊大法官因為他過去是行政法院的院長"},{"start":4903.342,"end":4923.085,"text":"目前沒有其他的大法官真的是以憲法行政法作為專攻的那更不用說我們其實在這個陳英才大法官被提名的這個報告當中也提到我們非常多的憲法案件是跟刑法有關的我們急需補充這個刑法背景的大法官"},{"start":4923.766,"end":4945.025,"text":"那這一次的提名其實可以看得出來是非常堅固這樣子的這個被提名的身手 被提名的人身手講白了這些被提名人 從張文貞這院長的被提名人是耶魯大學的法學博士他指導教授是這個Bruce Ackerman是在美國針對憲法變遷的這個頂尖的好手 頂尖的學者"},{"start":4945.746,"end":4961.924,"text":"那更不用說 譬如說像這個 廖福特教授他是牛津大學 這不是在台灣的大聯盟這是世界的大聯盟的選手那他的指導教授叫Paul Gregg如果對於歐盟法有研究的話會知道他出了叫做經典的歐盟法的教科書"},{"start":4963.144,"end":4982.461,"text":"在臺灣這些具有像劉靜儀教授、何大傑教授等等甚至是我們的王碧芳法官可以看到他們的身手都是一等一的身手而且在守備位置上都能夠兼顧各個位置我是非常的"},{"start":4983.982,"end":4997.027,"text":"斗膽地警請大院能夠考慮剛才我提到那些點能夠謹慎、理性地來思考這次的提名讓他們通過那更不用說就像我剛才提到的這個"},{"start":5000.504,"end":5016.02,"text":"抱歉喔這個有點跳掉齁這個就像我剛才提到的這些被提名人的這個在憲法法庭的領域跟需求齁目前真的是急需急需補上啦那更重要就是我剛才提到的這也不是"},{"start":5018.112,"end":5035.361,"text":"其中只有一兩個人行的問題更不是其中只要挑一兩個人同意的就好的問題我尊重這個大院針對特定的人選或許有不同的意見但是就像我提到的這一份名單裡面是來自於各國的好手"},{"start":5036.301,"end":5053.141,"text":"來自於各個領域的好手不是只有一兩個人行更不是只有通過一兩個人讓他同意只要勉強過關有9個人有10個人就好的問題我們憲法規定有15位大法官表示15位是我們認為需要來自於不同領域的人選"},{"start":5054.062,"end":5080.461,"text":"那這一點我們是非常警醒的大院能夠審慎的來思考那最後還是要提一點就是說其實破壞容易建設難我相信要指摘這些這個大法官提名人的個別你如果要這個雞蛋裡挑骨頭吹毛球汁或許都能夠把它破壞掉但是在這個提名的過程當中因為我本身也是律師公會也是台灣法學會我們也參與前階段的這個推薦"},{"start":5082.25,"end":5096.562,"text":"可以知道這中間要能夠答應點頭是需要多大的決心跟勇氣如果說大院真的對於這些名單有不同的意見我只有一個很小的請求就是能不能夠真的具體提出一個具體的人"},{"start":5097.443,"end":5123.42,"text":"而且他是已經點頭答應說如果我被提名我會願意出任的人不要透過私下協商用喬的方式來做而是就把這個名單端出給社會讓大家看看他行不行能不能不過這是我最後非常卑微的請求那作為結語就是希望這個大院能夠理性審慎來進行這次大法官審查不要讓這個能守能投能打的Team Taiwan就止步在大院面前謝謝"},{"start":5124.537,"end":5132.952,"text":"好 謝謝宏偉聖教授的寶貴說明接下來我們請陳瑞仁教授請說明謝謝"},{"start":5136.352,"end":5155.352,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位在場先進我是退休的檢察官沈瑞仁我今天是想從一個辦案的基層的檢察官的角度來從這個憲判八來談大法官的人選的問題"},{"start":5157.745,"end":5180.911,"text":"我講 憲判八他是引起很多的討論那他現在沒辦法就是說他跟大法官的人選已經被連結在一起所以我們就勇敢的面對這個問題我講憲判八他引發的一些問題第一個就是他有一些價值衝突"},{"start":5182.911,"end":5188.297,"text":"還有它實務上的一些操作讓我們實務界的會有一點疑惑就對了齁"},{"start":5189.605,"end":5211.757,"text":"那首先第一個就是說先判罷他所創造出來的那些特別程序是要所有的殺人案件都適用還是說後來法官有判死刑的才適用還是說檢察官有求處死刑的才適用這個現在在史物界有爭議了"},{"start":5212.998,"end":5232.519,"text":"那我個人是支持是檢察官有求處死刑的才進去這一種特別程序這樣子實務上應該操作會比較順暢一點另外就是關於價值的選擇方面事實上憲判吧"},{"start":5234.046,"end":5250.966,"text":"對於那個對被告有利的就是說被告本人的因素也就是說他比如說他從小成長的背景他有沒有被虐待這個其實是國際公約都有在注意的問題其實憲判吧也是漏掉了"},{"start":5252.992,"end":5280.728,"text":"所以我們回過頭來看美國他們對於這個死刑的程序他們的程序我是覺得比較容易操作啦他們就是有法律先規定說哪些是判死刑的加重因素那這個由檢察官來舉證然後再來就是說哪些是減輕因素由辯護人來證明如果只有加重沒有減輕那就判死刑"},{"start":5281.388,"end":5284.873,"text":"但是如果有加重又有減輕那就做一個衡量"},{"start":5286.789,"end":5314.452,"text":"那衡量的結果,如果說死刑的條件其實都有了只是最後裁判認為不應該判死刑這個時候就有70%的州規定說那就一定要判終身監禁美國是有終身監禁的,他們是真的關在牢裡面的"},{"start":5317.432,"end":5339.683,"text":"那另外就是有一個很重要的問題就是說數之合併跟分離的問題意思就是說比如說一個殺人犯他的殺人罪跟他另外一個罪比如說那個罪是在公車上偷拍群內風光的這種罪能不能一起審對於被告會不會造成不利"},{"start":5341.244,"end":5363.18,"text":"或者是說一個大咖的跟一個小咖的人一起審判的話那一個小咖的會不會被大咖的影響就是人家因為討厭大咖就是對小咖就不利像類似這種所謂的正當法律審計事實上現判吧也是漏掉了再來就是說"},{"start":5364.703,"end":5387.382,"text":"國民法官的決定他必須要被尊重到哪邊剛剛被害者家屬就有指出說為什麼一個職業法官就可以推翻六個國民法官那我們來看美國的制度美國在求死案件的老大是誰是陪審團"},{"start":5389.404,"end":5414.098,"text":"美國只有兩個州是最後決定生死的是交給職業法官其他沒有廢死的州都是由陪審團做最後決定而那兩個可以由法官做最後決定的前提是說陪審團已經同意要判死刑了如果陪審團不同意判死刑的話法官也不能判死刑所以"},{"start":5414.998,"end":5443.525,"text":"關於死刑案件事實上是主權在民的觀念是沒錯可是我們憲判八好像沒有去遵守這一點再來就是說關於那個求死案件的裁判者他應該有哪些資格這個在美國叫做陪審員的資格性就對了間接"},{"start":5445.276,"end":5462.892,"text":"反對死刑的或者是說殺人者一定要償命的這兩種極端的人都不能去處理求死案件就對了那這一點憲判八在講到正當程序的時候也漏掉了"},{"start":5466.594,"end":5485.975,"text":"那再來是精神狀態,精神狀態引起很大的爭議事實上精神狀態從我們實務操作的來看,它有兩個點最重要第一個就是說舉證責任在誰一個被告可以講說我在殺人的時候有一個聲音叫我去殺人,他只要講這樣子就夠了嗎?"},{"start":5488.055,"end":5504.99,"text":"事實上是不夠的啦在美國的規定就是說你被告還是要去證明有那個聲音的存在你證明出來以後只是他的證明程度不用到無任何合理的懷疑他證明程度是比較低一點就是明白可信的"},{"start":5505.751,"end":5531.416,"text":"的那種程度就可以但是他總是要復舉任責任然後第二個就是說誰來做最後決定我們現在實務上是說送給鑑定人然後只要一個醫生講說他在行為的時候精神有問題我們教教就接受實際上這是錯的在美國他明文規定最終的決定是由事實裁判者也就是陪審團他獨佔"},{"start":5534.076,"end":5545.981,"text":"這個決定權是要在這邊像這兩個問題 憲判官也沒有去論述最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":5548.379,"end":5563.541,"text":"有些在宣判發之後會有一些殺人犯重返社會那重返社會這個問題引起我們社會除了安全性以外其實有一個更可怕的事情就是說"},{"start":5564.762,"end":5586.781,"text":"那些人將來能不能上節目去談他的案件他能不能出書他會不會成為名嘴他可不可以到被害人的大門前面去賣牛肉麵然後講說我現在每賣一碗牛肉麵我就捐30塊給被害人然後來賺這一種等於是賺災難錢"},{"start":5588.976,"end":5610.841,"text":"可不可以這樣子這個問題一個負責的司法要去思考因為有一些人會被放出來這個就牽涉到所謂的保護管束有沒有終身的保護管束就對了我們現在的保護管束沒有終身的我們沒有終身監禁也沒有"},{"start":5612.148,"end":5620.575,"text":"中生的保護管束的話這個社會當然會有所不滿所以這個必須要進行一些修法就對了"},{"start":5623.401,"end":5641.797,"text":"我們就是從憲判八回過頭來講說大法官的人權我想大法官會最忍當心的第一個就是說他如果對於特定理念有宗教式的狂熱的話這個就有點不太合當了"},{"start":5643.086,"end":5643.606,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5666.665,"end":5677.24,"text":"為了就是一個解釋只是為了替一個個案解套而不做通盤考量的這一點我們也是要去避免"},{"start":5678.854,"end":5707.557,"text":"那至於說我們現在到底如何避免說未反對而反對我認為立法委員應該是在質詢方面去發揮一些作用那質詢要做得好第一個當然對他的先前的陳述先前的行為要做一些收集再來就是要建立那個質詢的題庫那質詢的題庫我在資料裡面有列一些參考"},{"start":5708.698,"end":5737.645,"text":"最後就是說我們必須要面對可能會有第二波的提名那其實要有高度的政治協商的智慧去進行這件事德國的那個大法官是國會要三分之二高門檻才能通過他基本的精神其實就在政治協商啦就是大家都能夠接受最後就是說我國的"},{"start":5738.365,"end":5738.785,"text":"謝謝陳瑞榮教授"},{"start":5767.563,"end":5768.165,"text":"接下來我們請第7位蘇彥圖教授請"},{"start":5773.78,"end":5801.038,"text":"主席、各位委員、在座各位先進大家好很榮幸有機會能夠參與今天的討論在正式發言之前可能也做一個聲明就是今天個人的發言完全只有代表個人不代表我所屬的單位也沒有跟這個推薦我參與今天會議的這個黨團有任何的溝通而且我相信我們在座所有的專家都是同樣的狀況"},{"start":5802.52,"end":5821.6,"text":"我們就是提供我們的專業意見提供給大院來參考我今天想要運用10分鐘簡短的時間來談兩個層次的問題第一個層次就是說我們在進一步的討論說什麼是事任的大法官我們對於大法官事任的標準到底是什麼"},{"start":5822.921,"end":5823.021,"text":"第2屆第2屆"},{"start":5852.681,"end":5854.403,"text":"第1屆大法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案公聽會議"},{"start":5876.881,"end":5903.692,"text":"不過這個整體確實是很重要的但是我們的法律的規定基本上是透過總統的提名然後立法院的同意我們共同來形成一個那個就完整多樣然後具有一定的代表性的這個憲法法院的組成但是我們在個別接下來我們會比較重視的是個別的大法官的人選我們也期待說他具有一定的"},{"start":5904.392,"end":5904.612,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5933.177,"end":5955.326,"text":"其實第一個最基本的條件就是英文說integrity就是操守他要有很高尚的人格沒有任何的道德上的爭議那第二個就是我們會說Competence他的能力他的專業那我們的因為我們的大法官的提名"},{"start":5956.627,"end":5956.647,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5975.808,"end":5975.828,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5991.454,"end":5992.095,"text":"司法哲學"},{"start":6012.717,"end":6037.239,"text":"司法哲學他其實除了我們都理解說法官也是人法官他有自己的政治立場意識形態這個一定程度都會影響他做的決定但是他也不是只依照他自己的政治立場跟意識形態在做決定每一個法官對於他自己的角色的認知他如何理解他的任務可能都會有不一樣"},{"start":6039.441,"end":6063.181,"text":"我們的憲法特別是我們當代的自由憲政民主其實是一個非常需要包容非常多元不同的觀念跟想法所以每一個大官他解釋他如何解釋憲法他如何去運他可能都會有不同的理解不同的理論那這個都是值得我們去溝通去了解"},{"start":6063.981,"end":6065.383,"text":"副院長及大法官同意權案"},{"start":6079.704,"end":6100.647,"text":"被提名人都要採取這個方法這個是可能要進一步說明所以我們在特別例如在司法哲學的討論上我們有很多的分析就會提供說我們其實不同的法官他其實有不同的憲法人格我們叫constitutional persona"},{"start":6101.767,"end":6124.642,"text":"這個部分它的特質都可以值得我們進一步的透過人事同意權的審查能夠進一步的來讓我們的社會理解知道說我們所選任出來的大法官是什麼樣的大法官其實第4個還有最重要的我覺得其實是"},{"start":6125.162,"end":6126.645,"text":"Judicial TEMPERAMENT"},{"start":6136.53,"end":6159.533,"text":"那這個temperament其實很重要就是說他需要能夠展現他的一定的獨立性他可以獨立思考他可能過去都會有政治活動的參與但是他並不會因此而有產生對特定政黨的偏好他能夠展現他的公正性然後他有一定的開放open mindedness"},{"start":6159.993,"end":6161.154,"text":"公聽會．第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會"},{"start":6184.352,"end":6213.497,"text":"被好的道理說服這也是重要的一個特質所以確實就會特別是在政治激化或者是分立政府時期我們就會期待說我們的大法官確實不會是像陳委員檢察官提到說他可能是很極端的或他立場很鮮明但是他比較願意是他是一個moderate他是一個比較溫和的他願意去聽不同的意見只要有這樣子的特質的大法官"},{"start":6213.857,"end":6235.494,"text":"都應該是值得我們肯定應該要也要被選任的所以重點就在於說我剛才的分析事實要說明就是說大法官他作為一個法官他真的就是法官他不是穿著法袍的政客他不是依照他的個人的偏政策的偏好"},{"start":6236.094,"end":6236.374,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6257.469,"end":6272.135,"text":"他們真的都是超越黨派在進行他們的職務所以黨派的思考應該是在這個大法官選任裡面是最不重要甚至是不應該要出現的部分"},{"start":6272.955,"end":6299.426,"text":"那在最有限的時間裡面我想要講最後一點就是說有關於我們的人事同意權的公聽會以及最後的投票應該要如何進行我只是想要提醒就是說在這個過程其實它某一個程度上來說是可以讓我們的社會更進一步的理解我們未來的大法官他大概會是什麼樣的一個法官所以它有一個重要的一個"},{"start":6300.346,"end":6327.583,"text":"公民教育的一個功能但是我們在這個過程中也會擔心說對於大法官一些錯誤的期待或不當的期待都會影響了我們社會對於司法公正性的信任那這是我們會希望能夠避免的所以我舉一個例子就是1993年的時候Ruth Bader Ginsburg我們很有名的一位金斯伯格大法官他美國的一個非常"},{"start":6328.203,"end":6329.405,"text":"公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會"},{"start":6349.226,"end":6366.015,"text":"大法官當時被提名人他就說這件事情跟我的接下來要做的工作一點關係都沒有我們不希望誤導我們的公民認為說大法官都是只是依照個人的價值偏好在做決斷的話"},{"start":6366.955,"end":6367.736,"text":"非常感謝蘇彥圖教授的寶貴意見"},{"start":6388.732,"end":6388.752,"text":"郭榮鏗議員"},{"start":6420.839,"end":6448.57,"text":"院長還有我們所有的學者專家我們立法院的同仁還有各位媒體大家好我非常喜歡東野歸吾的小說人性的善人性的惡在他的筆下寫的淋漓盡致我尤其印象深刻是他寫了一本小說叫做惡意故事的情節非常的驚悚"},{"start":6450.243,"end":6475.173,"text":"東野歸吾在惡意這本小說裡面描寫惡人的惡意那種讓人不寒而慄的恐怖我到現在也是印象猶新我相信那種讓人不寒而慄的惡意的恐怖對面我們的張教授你一定也能夠感同身受因為這些就現實的發生在很多受害者身上"},{"start":6476.318,"end":6502.026,"text":"讓受害者家屬感受到這些惡人們讓人不寒而慄的惡意這世界上有好人但也有壞人有一種壞人他殺人可能是因為嫉妒可能是因為仇恨可能是因為貪婪但也可能根本沒有理由完全沒有理由就是出於單純的惡意"},{"start":6504.38,"end":6523.819,"text":"他想殺人他不把別人的命當命甚至他覺得殺人只是一種樂趣而已當我們的司法宮殿的最後那個王座成為這種惡意的保護者的時候我要問大家我們所有善良守法的人"},{"start":6525.114,"end":6552.714,"text":"我們兢兢業業在崗位上我們照顧我們家人承擔我們的責任保護我們愛人的普通的老百姓我們要靠誰來保護很遺憾我們的大法官就是把自己當作那司法王座上的王他用自己的價值強壓被惡人剝奪生命的被害人"},{"start":6554.209,"end":6582.296,"text":"他用自己的價值強壓被害者家屬流不盡的淚水他用自己的價值強壓全台灣超過八成反對廢除死刑的民意就在今年的9月20號大法官做出了實質廢死的判決我剛剛聽到林滕耀教授說的"},{"start":6583.598,"end":6609.233,"text":"其實大法官就成了民進黨廢死的巧門我要跟各位說主張廢死不能說完全沒有道理但是民進黨既然你的黨綱支持廢除死刑你就勇敢的在立法院提案透過立法來宣示你今天廢死的意志結果你不以此為由不以此為盡"},{"start":6611.138,"end":6639.279,"text":"你最後找了黨議的大法官繞過民意 繞過立法然後用少數大法官的意志來去做出了實質廢死的判決而這個實質廢死的判決一出來 真的一出來我印象中大概一個禮拜吧非常快啊影響就出現了第一個保護"},{"start":6640.714,"end":6668.925,"text":"的就是虐殺張教授妻子的這個流行凶犯我們的大法官的保護傘第一個保護的就是虐殺女教師的流行凶犯明天是12月3號是讓我們覺得非常悲痛的日子明天12月3號反對廢除死刑"},{"start":6670.287,"end":6698.844,"text":"今天不捨女教師就這樣被殺害的民眾我們在明天就要走上街頭明天下午走上街頭十年前這一位一生奉獻教育受到學生肯定有關心愛護她的家人也有她愛護關心的家人的這位女老師她不過就是到市場去買菜"},{"start":6700.899,"end":6722.135,"text":"就遭遇飛來橫禍流性兇犯是隨機挑上這個奉公守法的女老師用鐵鎚重擊她很多殘忍的細節我真的我也說不出口我說不出口非常殘忍虐殺了女老師立審法院"},{"start":6726.616,"end":6731.845,"text":"都認為這個兇手泯滅人性毫無教化可能五度判死"},{"start":6734.071,"end":6758.584,"text":"結果大法官實質廢死宣判出來之後我們的最高法院是非常誠實的他直接對外說明為什麼今天五度判死可以改判免死為什麼最高法院直接告訴我們他是秉照大法官最新的憲法判決意思保護這位加害人"},{"start":6760.267,"end":6780.151,"text":"民進黨還跟我講沒有實質廢死大法官憲判沒有實質廢死最高法院直接跟我講這五度判死的兇犯最高法院就是用大法官憲法判決的意思直接宣布他免死確判你還跟我講沒有實質廢死大法官成為惡徒惡人的救星啊"},{"start":6788.885,"end":6813.012,"text":"而我們一輩子坐於英才的女老師拿到獅奪獎的女老師她的冤屈從此埋於地下再也不能昭雪她的家屬就像張老師說的要被判一輩子無期徒刑被判一輩子無期徒刑是受害者的家屬她一輩子"},{"start":6814.09,"end":6840.451,"text":"都只能在暗夜裡流淚因為期盼不到正義你以為只有流性兇犯嗎沒多久,不久前一位縱火燒死七個人的真性兇犯一樣也說因為大法官做了實質廢死判決所以他也免死了,卻判了"},{"start":6842.435,"end":6871.43,"text":"他在法庭上怎麼說的大家知道嗎他說我燒死七個人我比鄭捷厲害我燒死七個人我比鄭捷厲害但按照大法官的憲法判決意志這麼厲害的人是被大法官保護的人我常在講今天主張廢除死刑的人都會講說那今天冤獄怎麼辦"},{"start":6872.964,"end":6889.969,"text":"我跟各位講現在刑事偵查的技術的進步幾乎已經讓冤獄是不可能發生我就直接問這些主張冤獄的人冤獄當然我們也反對主張冤獄的我要問你鄭捷是冤獄嗎所有攝影機都拍到他是冤獄嗎"},{"start":6891.57,"end":6910.15,"text":"今天這位真性兇犯說我殺了7個人比鄭潔厲害他是冤獄嗎今天虐殺女老師的流性兇犯他是冤獄嗎不要再拿冤獄當藉口過去刑事偵查的手段有非常多不吉之處現在時代不一樣各位不要忘啦"},{"start":6914.298,"end":6941.876,"text":"你以為只有到流性兇犯跟真性兇犯啊我們有37位死刑定驗的死刑犯我跟吳宗憲委員、翁小林委員我們在司法法院質詢多少次我告訴各位從來沒有一個官員敢告訴我說他們不會被放出來沒有一個官員敢保證大法官實質廢死判決之後第一個面對就是非常少數"},{"start":6943.493,"end":6949.875,"text":"然後可能就撤銷判決然後人可能就放出來了過去我們的大法官的實質廢質判決變成這些殺人犯的幫兇而未來的殺人犯也可以非常開心的告訴大家我殺人不用擔心啊"},{"start":6972.748,"end":6999.448,"text":"因為大法官就是我最強的後盾阿今天我們在這邊為什麼要進行人事同意的公聽會因為賴清德總統提名的7位大法官有6位主張廢除死刑我想請我們民進黨的朋友江心平請賴清德江心比心你教我們立法院怎麼通過這6位主張廢除死刑的大法官提名阿我怎麼通過羅志祥怎麼投得下這張票阿"},{"start":7001.328,"end":7025.226,"text":"我投下這張票我對得起那些被害者跟被害者的家屬嗎我對得起台灣八成的民意嗎所以今天我們在這邊我要告訴大家大法官做實質廢死的判決對我們受害者對司法正義的踐踏我不容許 我不會背書這六位大法官繼續下去 謝謝"},{"start":7027.963,"end":7051.602,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員發言接下來跟各位介紹一下我們現到場的有葛如君委員廖偉祥委員也到了現場那接下來我們請登記第二位鍾嘉斌委員請發言麻煩把電腦鍾嘉斌委員的簡報資料報告一下在這個安裝電腦的介紹有張祺凱委員也到了現場"},{"start":7061.681,"end":7061.721,"text":"主席"},{"start":7090.27,"end":7112.345,"text":"在場的各界學者、專家、代表我們委員先進媒體記者女士先升我想今天我們在這裡我要對於公聽會的內容有一個重點就是人事同意權投票記名與否如何影響大法官職權行使這個題目可能很弔詭因為從剛剛大家討論我們聽到我們在討論的是人事同意權要"},{"start":7120.748,"end":7149.286,"text":"如何進行審查我剛聆聽了幾位學者、專家代表還有前面幾位委員的發言似乎我們希望從這些被提名人過去的主張他過去的判決的立場或是他在某些價值上、理念上來作為我們要對他行使同意權的一個判準是這樣嗎?"},{"start":7150.967,"end":7162.792,"text":"我很佩服剛剛蘇彥途教授他所說的今天我們對於任何被提名人的審查不意味著他將來在釋憲案會採取什麼樣的釋憲的立場或結果"},{"start":7169.434,"end":7195.981,"text":"就像我們不能因為我們有個案子細數法院我們要來挑法官我要看看來審理我案件的法官他是否在過去類似的案例上他是主張給予被告死刑還是給他一個更輕緩的判決人民在法院上尋求正義我們不能挑法官我們只能申請迴避有具體的案例認為該名法官不適合審理本案"},{"start":7197.151,"end":7214.407,"text":"迴避的原則在目前憲法訴訟本來就有啊所以因此我們去考驗我們去細細的斟酌去透視這位被提名人他過去因此要預測他未來在憲法事件上他要做什麼樣的決定這是不可能也沒有意義的事情"},{"start":7215.339,"end":7242.201,"text":"所以不可能對於他過去是否支持廢死來判斷他未來在未來重大的國家憲政議題上他會採取什麼立場這是徒勞無功也不應該的事情所以我是覺得我們對於審查的目的要先想清楚如果真的能夠透過這種方式來篩選那抱歉那只有在我們所熟悉看到的美國的陪審團制度你可以兩兆可以對於陪審團的成員"},{"start":7244.431,"end":7261.395,"text":"他的族群、他的膚色、他的職業,他是否已經有新政了我們去要求更換陪審團團員,抱歉,我們今天審查的是大法官被提名人不是細數案件的陪審團的成員,這是首先要說明的"},{"start":7261.912,"end":7285.001,"text":"所以我們來看一看這第一章,這是民間的監督大法官人權聯盟,他提到要看他的品格、人格特質、學識專業能力、憲政人權理念,是否要改革,交給全院委員會審查大家知道嗎?我參與過好幾次審查,審查結果審查報告提到院會跟大會報告的時候,有提到每個委員的內容嗎?有提到多數意見的內容嗎?有提到公聽會的意見嗎?沒有"},{"start":7286.772,"end":7310.394,"text":"只有描述什麼時候開了公聽會什麼時候進行了諮詢、審查什麼時候開始提全院來做投票表決沒有任何對於該人選是否適任的任何的評論意見沒有好所以呢儘管我們有公聽會接下來院會的進行表決才是關鍵我們來看一下目前立法院"},{"start":7311.454,"end":7328.227,"text":"行使憲法職權的各種表決規定在既有的就有的職權行使法當中它分別為對事有復議權復議案還有緊急命令的追認這是採對近民表決另外在對人的部分它有人事同意"},{"start":7329.198,"end":7353.369,"text":"全有總統的彈劾案那麼這個還有總統的罷免案還有不信任案當中我們看到了對人跟對事結果就有的立法院職權行使法副議案是近平表決總統罷免案對葛魁的不信任案這是近平表決但是很奇怪的對事情的緊急命令卻是"},{"start":7355.459,"end":7380.194,"text":"吳敬明表決人事同意案跟總統談判案這對人的是吳敬明表決所以我們真的看不出來在舊有的立法院職權行使法到底記不記名跟對人或對事有沒有一個清楚的界限然而在本次的國會擴權案當中通通改成敬明表決當然敬明表決這個條款並沒有在大法官釋憲的範圍內所以自然沒有受理"},{"start":7380.774,"end":7402.549,"text":"所以我們不了解也不去爭論到底通通改為記名表決對我們人事同意權的審查會不會有影響但是我們來看一下同意權的修法之後呢我們現在有兩個變革第一個將公聽會入法本來每次同意權行使都有公聽會但是這次立法院執行法入法了另外也把他的人事同意權改為記名投票"},{"start":7403.977,"end":7421.385,"text":"記名投票這是一個合乎一般的原則嗎在4至499號的申請函當中提到了表決應採公開這方式僅於涉及選舉事項為免人情干擾使例外採秘密投票當年在申請"},{"start":7422.895,"end":7432.88,"text":"後來宣告國會擴權自肥延任案為無效的時候當時的事件申請文有包括我們在現場的主席韓國瑜院長楊瓊英委員當時102人提出對於"},{"start":7438.448,"end":7467.589,"text":"對於修憲延任案申請釋憲就申請人自己提到選舉啊避免人情干擾要採取秘密投票那請問人事同意權審查算不算他這裡面所謂的應該要秘密投票但是各國的國籍不同有的採吳敬明投票像法國的眾議院像台灣的舊制但是有的是採敬明投票就是現在的新制甚至更有進一步的美國他是採點名投票啊點名投票什麼意思"},{"start":7468.949,"end":7491.203,"text":"400多位國會議員一個一個叫起來輪到你說贊成還是反對這個效果比我們的記名投票更為有壓力啊因為是一票一票投啊如果投票你的時候剛好就在可否過半的那個過程你到底要同意還是反對這跟投完票再來開票知道說你到底是制裁還是反對不太一樣"},{"start":7492.366,"end":7511.831,"text":"但是呢就算過去我們用吳敬明投票還是有各黨都會技術性的亮票叫做監票亮給誰看亮給監票員看亮給監票員是為了什麼目的為了政黨的黨的紀律政黨要求他所屬的國會議員應該要一致性的在人事同意權上行使一致立場"},{"start":7513.101,"end":7536.716,"text":"這到底應不應該這可以討論但是我們從吳敬明投票到晉民投票我們看到吳敬明投票他沒有人情壓力但是他也不用對社會公開大眾負責反而他可以透過技術性的量票給監票人看可以貫徹政黨機率但是又不受到公共監督所以某個程度來講晉民投票似乎是比較能夠符應符合國會論證應跟社會大眾負責"},{"start":7539.258,"end":7563.839,"text":"好,但是我們來看一下一旦記名投票之後會有什麼情況呢?我們看到了這是在當年我們看到的一個投票結果我們看到記名投票立委可以自由表態嗎?當年所謂的最爛的監委名單國民黨多數國民黨執政的時候國民黨提名自己刷掉自己的人因為是無記名投票如果才記名投票這種情況不管誰執政"},{"start":7565.248,"end":7576.757,"text":"會不會發生 有沒有可能發生 我們來思考一下像這一張2015年馬英九總統提名的黃鴻霞等四位大法官結果蔡明成沒有通過黃鴻霞通過"},{"start":7578.308,"end":7606.126,"text":"就在不久之前他參與了律師的上街頭遊行反對國會擴權案反對限訴法的一個惡修他說你不能叫我玉友友啊嚴格來講我叫馬友友啊因為我是馬英九提名的照社會上的說法誰哪個總統提名的他就是哪個人的人馬是這樣子嗎馬英九總統提名的被提名人也有被刷掉的啊也有通過的啊也有通過之後他在今年站出來反對國民黨主導的限法訴訟法的惡修啊"},{"start":7608.032,"end":7625.775,"text":"我們來看一下,如果一旦才晉名投票的時候,我們會看到過去的吳晉名不會知道個別黨派或黨員、議員的投票結果結果改成晉名投票之後,每個通過的大法官都知道他得到的同意票是分布在哪些政黨"},{"start":7626.772,"end":7654.151,"text":"那未來這裡面就會出現三個影響第一個被提名人通過之後他知道我今天能當上大法官是誰投票給我同意的好啦 被提名人知道了接著審查的人投票的人也知道你會通過投票除了我還有誰同意給你更重要的是社會知道了"},{"start":7655.509,"end":7684.034,"text":"如果說大法官你的通過審查是我的同意那未來以我為名提出的立法委員提出的釋憲案請問這個被行使同意權的大法官他有沒有壓力啊是不是我們當年韓院長所受的人情壓力啊更重要的是社會怎麼看社會就根據這個同意權行使通過之後所有通過的大法官都有一個各黨派的委員的支持表"},{"start":7685.031,"end":7707.902,"text":"未來的提名人更容易被社會標籤化這是今天我們多位的垂水專家一再提起的我們如何避免讓我們的大法官被社會以黨派來標籤化這是我們在觀察我們的同意權審查從吳敬明投票到敬明投票要大家密切去注意的攸關未來我們大法官的視線以上"},{"start":7709.363,"end":7719.957,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓委員發言接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員請在發言之前再介紹一位台灣民眾黨委員麥玉珍委員到現場蔡易瑜委員請好"},{"start":7723.569,"end":7747.903,"text":"謝謝主席、各位學者專家還有我們在場的各位委員以及各位媒體先進今天在舉行大法官人事同意權我們全院委員會所召開的一個公聽會也感謝各位學者專家可以今天來出席我們今天的公聽會我想今天我們在與審查大法官的時候剛剛"},{"start":7748.963,"end":7773.377,"text":"每位學者都有提出各自的一些看法那我認為在審查大法官的時候除了著重大法官過去他所謂的一個學經歷之外那大法官過去的一個背景那以及我們每一個大法官他們在於被提名之後他們是否可以尋求到各政黨的支持那在"},{"start":7774.378,"end":7791.213,"text":"投票權行使的時候獲得多數過半的一個投票讓這個被提名可以成功這個我想是整個在這個立法院被提名權跟這個同意權行使上的一個要件那也就是因為這樣"},{"start":7792.134,"end":7812.56,"text":"那我要強調的第一個就是如同剛剛仲夏兵委員說的我們的同意權的行使自從不記名改成了記名之後大法官被提名人在這段時間他所尋求支持的立委他未來是會展現在這個投票的一個結果"},{"start":7813.18,"end":7840.33,"text":"那既然會展現在投票的一個結果我們第一個擔心的就是說一旦政黨他行使以自信投票的要求的時候是否每一位立委就沒有辦法或者喪失了個別大法官在尋求個別立委支持的時候他們的機會就會相對的減少也就是說本來大法官可以在不記名的時候尋求個別立委因為在某些"},{"start":7841.938,"end":7842.178,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7867.819,"end":7891.346,"text":"立委會呈現高度的政黨的一個傾向那這個政黨的傾向一旦呈現出來後會不會造成這一位大法官在未來在行使憲法訴訟他所做出任何一個憲法訴訟裡面的理由書不管是贊成或者是反對的理由書裡面會不會讓外界先對他"},{"start":7892.686,"end":7893.907,"text":"副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":7919.386,"end":7940.674,"text":"當然不同的政黨之間大家在彼此競爭的過程中都會去主張說這大法官是誰提名的是過去馬英九前總統提名的是蔡英文提名的是現任的賴清德總統提名的當然因為提名人就會讓這些被提名的大法官給他們"},{"start":7942.374,"end":7957.7,"text":"賦予了好像因為提名人他們身上就帶有政黨那也就是會變成說現在在行使同意權本質上的一個困難那以現在國會的一個多數並不是提名人賴清德總統的民進黨"},{"start":7961.121,"end":7976.306,"text":"是屬於國會多數那這樣的一個被提名人有辦法尋求在國會是少數的另外的政黨的支持這個難度本身是高所以我們還是期待說在於這一次的"},{"start":7977.066,"end":7994.72,"text":"大法官提名的時候每一位被提名人還是可以努力的去尋求各位的支持不管是每一個政黨、每一個立委最後來通過同意權我想是一個很必要的"},{"start":7995.14,"end":7995.36,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8018.646,"end":8045.297,"text":"同意權的司法院的未來的院長是讓他們希望他去注重幾個議題第一個議題就是法官長期過勞的議題那以臺北地方法院為例2013年的總案件量是27000件到了2023年已經增加到了35000件而且這個增加的案件當然是以詐騙的案件最多從10年前"},{"start":8047.058,"end":8075.178,"text":"一年大概800件到2023年暴增到了3000件所以以這樣來說司法院的整個的一個平均的工作的時數是增加了很多平均每日的工作時數11.8小時每週的工作時數是58.9小時所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們希望未來的司法院院長如果通過了提名的話事實上"},{"start":8075.618,"end":8075.738,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8102.254,"end":8129.002,"text":"事實審是放在第一審那終審的法院是放在了法律審之後那所以我們第一審是一個叫做堅強的事實審第二審是嚴格的續審制第三審則是嚴格的一個法律審這樣的一個金字塔的訴訟程序的程序我們應該要關注的第一個基層法院的資源跟人力是不足的第二個上訴救濟跟司法權的一個保障第三個就是司法的信任問題那這部分"},{"start":8131.042,"end":8131.843,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8153.446,"end":8174.998,"text":"國民黨立委提案將憲法訴訟法憲由總額改成法定總額15人並要求大法官憲由總額必須要三分之二的出席以及三分之二的同意才能作出暫時處分或評議這部分會讓如果這一次的大法官沒有辦法通過"},{"start":8176.513,"end":8192.274,"text":"提名沒有辦法再通過這個人事同意權的話會造成現行的大法官的總額就是只有8人但是在於憲法訴訟法如果修過的這個訴訟法第4條把它改成法定總額15人那"},{"start":8194.216,"end":8194.956,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8222.714,"end":8225.57,"text":"空窗起無法行使憲法訴訟的情況之下"},{"start":8227.301,"end":8255.89,"text":"那我們可以借鏡其他國家相關的憲法法庭我們可以去看如果以韓國為例南韓在今年的下半年也發生了如果這個憲法訴訟法通過的一個情況就在今年的下半年在2024年的10月17號韓國的憲法法院院長跟兩位法官大法官卸任但國會對於任命憲法法院法官"},{"start":8257.148,"end":8261.782,"text":"的程序仍然是停滯的所以依照韓國憲法法庭第23條第一項的規定"},{"start":8264.79,"end":8286.661,"text":"本來案件應該由7名以上的法官出席審理但是3位法官卸任之後韓國憲法法院因為無法達到7人的門檻而無法審判因此憲法法院在10月14日一致的決定暫停憲法審判的人數7人的條款所以也是因為這樣暫時解決了這個暫時適用這個條款"},{"start":8292.031,"end":8318.4,"text":"也暫時的解決憲法審判功能癱瘓的最壞情況那這件事是發生在南韓今年的10月17號那我現在要預知的就是說如果這個憲法訴訟法也真如同現在國會多數黨他們的堅持之下讓憲法法庭癱瘓讓憲法法庭無法行使的時候但是人民對於"},{"start":8319.68,"end":8339.58,"text":"大法官來行使憲法上的救濟的權利不能被癱瘓我們也呼籲憲法法庭應該要去看韓國的案例然後讓整個憲法訴訟仍然是可以繼續的行使好 謝謝謝謝參議員的發言接下來請登記第4位吳宗憲委員請發言"},{"start":8342.112,"end":8367.201,"text":"謝謝主席我想這次我們對於大法官的提名部分我們會做的是一個實質上的審查說絕對不會像外界所說的做包裹式的或仇恨式的同意或不同意那至少我們幾位委員我們討論的結果都是這樣而且也沒有任何黨團或任何人給我們下指導旗說我們必須要達到什麼樣的結果所以"},{"start":8367.941,"end":8368.061,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8386.766,"end":8387.226,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8413.951,"end":8416.253,"text":"馬英九總統時代提名大法官"},{"start":8431.903,"end":8453.225,"text":"他講的這句話沒有錯啊但是這個又更看得出來就是在以前總統馬總統時代他對大法官的選擇他是希望以一個平衡多樣的角度去挑選對國家真正有利的人選來擔任大法官而不是像現在大法官的人選就過度高度的重視他的政治"},{"start":8453.826,"end":8454.786,"text":"副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":8478.897,"end":8496.85,"text":"就認為說這個大法官跟現在我們怎麼可以提出質疑呢所以我在這邊必須講一個以前跟現在對於提名的想法是不一樣的現在的問題出在過度的高度去重視他的政治想法是什麼"},{"start":8497.972,"end":8514.406,"text":"那我剛有提到大法官的提名真的必須要避免過度的政治色彩因為憲法判決他對於國家的影響力是遠遠大於一般法院法官的判決像這次我們所謂的國會改革法案"},{"start":8515.367,"end":8540.762,"text":"其實大法官的判決已經完全限縮了國會的調查權但是我們也知道現在的監察院根本它的效力就不彰甚至現在的執政黨早就說以前都主張要廢除監察院現在的執政黨以前也主張要強化國會的調查權、聽證權等等的權限但是在執政之後就全部都忘記了甚至希望提名自己"},{"start":8541.582,"end":8565.904,"text":"有好的大法官來幫他做最後的把關最後去阻擋正常的改革所以這個是我們認為大法官不應該過度跟政治有關係其實以往的大法官都受我們念法律的人非常非常的尊敬因為他們做出來的許多判決都是超然去對於國家對於這個憲政上面的爭議去做最好的判決但是現在我們看不到這個"},{"start":8567.901,"end":8595.914,"text":"真正一個對國家有益的判決出來甚至大法官還認為說到國會說謊的官員根本就不需要去負責那這個也是不對的這個也是人民所沒有辦法接受的好 那我們再提到之前大法官他對於死刑判決的這一次限判制這個限判制他不但侵害了立法院的立法權他也侵害了普通法院法官的"},{"start":8597.349,"end":8597.669,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8617.625,"end":8643.441,"text":"或者是一個大法官的提名人連自己要做什麼能做什麼不能做什麼都搞不清楚的時候這個人適合當大法官嗎?我想全國念法律的人都懂我在講什麼大法官的角色是創設法律嗎?絕對不是大法官的角色是侵害法官獨立審判權嗎?絕對不是所以當他連自己的權限都搞不清楚的時候我們在人事審查就要去盯緊這一塊那"},{"start":8646.381,"end":8661.27,"text":"憲判制出來非常的明顯嘛他就是在從事這樣的角色變成是特定政黨的護航者至於說是哪一個政黨我就不多說了所以我還是希望啦大法官行使解釋憲法的權利的時候"},{"start":8663.36,"end":8691.244,"text":"憲法的問題的時候不應該受到政治力的影響就像他們任職時候他們一定有一個宣誓嘛他秉持超然獨立的精神所以我在審查人選的時候我會重視這一塊這也是我審查的時候非常重要的一個區塊那我覺得強化國會的權力它本來就是一個還權於民的概念怎麼會變成是像某些特定人講什麼毀憲亂政這種名詞都出來我想"},{"start":8692.789,"end":8718.216,"text":"強化國會還權於民是因為立法院已經是現在國內碩國僅存在中央唯一的民意機關了早期早期在中華民國創立在五權憲法的時代其實監察院跟立法院都是民意機關但是我們在歷次修憲之後只剩下立法院是唯一的民意機關你卻不賦予這個民意機關有"},{"start":8720.307,"end":8720.947,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8746.975,"end":8759.566,"text":"國會改革法案發生了一些爭議行政院、立法院、監察院發生了爭議其實憲法法庭也應該要求總統要先出來行使院紀的調解權但是卻"},{"start":8761.291,"end":8786.958,"text":"大法官就完全無視於這一塊那這個也結果也是導致行政權就是無限的擴張我們不能容許大法官讓或者是現在的執政黨把我們五權 憲法的五權搞到只剩下一權 行政權所以當司法權也要向行政權靠攏的時候當監察權當考試權都向行政權靠攏的時候那我們能夠接受這樣的見解嗎而且"},{"start":8790.322,"end":8807.531,"text":"立法院已經是中央碩果傾存的民意機關了我們不能讓人民只能對於政府有所不滿對行政權有所不滿他們只能期待下一次的選舉被動的再去爭取自己的權利而是我們在"},{"start":8809.014,"end":8829.774,"text":"當選者執政的這4年就要有有效的機關能夠去監督行政權但是現在的制度走到最後變成人民不管選出了誰他唯一能做的就只能期待4年後的下一次選舉更換政黨否則所有的代議事制度幾乎都被破壞光了所以"},{"start":8833.597,"end":8850.028,"text":"剛剛其實羅志強委員有提到民意的部分到底大法官要不要遵守民意其實我的想法跟大家跟國民黨很多人的想法其實不一定是一樣的當然我覺得大法官他不是100%"},{"start":8851.849,"end":8852.77,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8870.513,"end":8895.696,"text":"但是我們必須去思考的是如果今天大法官他在下判決的時候他是處於一個超然獨立的角色去做這個憲法判決的時候當然我們不會隨著大多數民意去走他也有他的反抗大法官有他的反抗的判決出來否則我們就所有東西都做民調了就不需要設置大法官了所以我必須講民意"},{"start":8896.806,"end":8921.224,"text":"你要去對抗他,但是前提請讓自己在獨立的位置獨立、超然這時候你才能夠去主張說我們的判決跟民意是不盡相同的我希望司法還是要行使自我的節制不能夠毫無極限的侵害立法權以及司法權我說司法權是法官獨立審判的權限"},{"start":8923.365,"end":8947.212,"text":"這次憲判制這個大法官的組成扣除掉迴避的三位只剩下三位有刑事判決的經驗所以我這次提出很多大法官其實在憲判制帶給社會的問題那我也很感謝剛剛陳瑞仁大學長他有提到的其實這些當我一直主張這些原本死刑的要執行者他們可能會回到社會但是"},{"start":8948.263,"end":8973.265,"text":"所有的政客以及側翼都告訴國人說我在欺騙社會但是剛陳德遠大法官說這些人可能回不到社會然後司法院的刑事聆聽長、副秘書長以及法務部的常事也都說會回到社會我們要想辦法解決這個問題結果只有政客告訴我們這些人不會回到社會其實這就是我在立法院我一直堅守的一個立場我要說出實話我不能把真相隱蔽然後不告訴國人"},{"start":8974.426,"end":8974.886,"text":"前大法官"},{"start":8993.74,"end":9023.142,"text":"那個詹昭元曾經說過就是對於民意到底要不要重視曾經說過他說如果我們不能想像有15個貴族可以決定我們國家所有的事情那為什麼我們可以接受15個大法官不受民意定期監督改選呢然後卻可以否定人民的自我決定連前大法官他都認為其實民意不是對大法官是完全不用踩大法官就是完全都不理民意就可以其實不是這樣子很多時候我們還是必須去多加思考好"},{"start":9024.402,"end":9030.484,"text":"時間的關係,我想我剛剛的論述就是我對於大法官實施審查上面我的想法,謝謝各位"},{"start":9878.402,"end":9880.528,"text":"再次感謝各位學者專家接下來我們請翁曉琳委員請發言"},{"start":9884.761,"end":9908.429,"text":"是,而院長,還有在座各位學者委員,各位媒體朋友,各位先生女士,大家好。這次進行大法官人事案的審查,本席以及在野黨的委員們一定會秉持著嚴格把關、寧缺勿濫的原則去審查這次的大法官人事案。"},{"start":9909.449,"end":9909.469,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9925.775,"end":9926.296,"text":"委員會．第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":9943.63,"end":9968.07,"text":"正因為大法官的釋憲判決是如此的重要所以更要強化憲法法庭的嚴謹度和專業度並且要慎選大法官要選出有良好的人品操守、法律專業能力並且要能夠以民為本可以抵抗政治壓力超越黨派之外並且忠於憲法精神的大法官"},{"start":9969.321,"end":9992.794,"text":"由於我國大法官的提名方式是由總統一人提名全數的大法官而不是像西方的國家那麼有些是明定部分的憲法法庭的法官是由國會和法院的體系推薦產生因此當總統提名大法官人選的時候如果只看重的是與自己政治立場相近的親近人士而不是廣納"},{"start":9993.715,"end":10004.58,"text":"多元不同政治立場和法律觀點的人選的時候就有可能會提名了一群政治色彩鮮明、法律見解偏頗的大法官"},{"start":10006.308,"end":10033.455,"text":"大法官的獨立性是極為重要的但是要如何評價大法官們是否獨立、不向當權者靠攏最簡單的方式就是聽其言、觀其行、讀其解釋文特別是針對具有高度政治意義的事先案大法官是否勇於站在與當權者對立的那一面而不是始終都是與當權者同一陣線這個是一個非常重要的觀察指標"},{"start":10035.219,"end":10051.516,"text":"我們看看過去蔡英文總統提名的那群大法官們他們在釋憲案上面總是力挺執政的政策、捍衛總統的意志、違反廣大的民意例如針對軍公教退休人員的年金改革的釋憲案"},{"start":10053.578,"end":10077.096,"text":"來諸標示的釋憲案、農田水利會改制的釋憲案以及近期實質廢死的釋憲案和國會改革釋憲案等等這些都讓人不禁懷疑這群大法官究竟是捍衛人民的權益還是當權者的利益又或是標新利益難怪這群大法官會被冠為是這個保皇派的大法官"},{"start":10078.94,"end":10099.926,"text":"當初蔡英文提名的這15位大法官好不容易現在已經有7位卸任了現在還留有8位的大法官未來勢必仍將繼續捍衛民進黨的執政利益因此接下來的這7位大法官的人選非常重要必須要是能夠平衡現在憲法法庭一面倒的狀況"},{"start":10101.326,"end":10126.015,"text":"必須要能夠引進多元不同的法律觀點的大法官才能夠客觀正確的去解釋憲法那適用憲法今天我們審查賴清德總統提名的司法院院長、副院長和大法官的被提名人的這份名單不難看出賴總統的提名是有多麼的用人為親滿滿綠油油的親旅人士"},{"start":10130.572,"end":10145.769,"text":"司法院院長、被提名人張文珍是民進黨申請國會改革法案指定的鑑定人司法院副院長、被提名人姚立民則是遊走於政治領域,更是賴清德當競選總統時的主任委員"},{"start":10150.274,"end":10159.422,"text":"廖福特教授則是民進黨中央黨部的仲裁委員也是中天換照聽證會上面的鑑定人主張中天不讓他換照生律的立場非常鮮明劉靜怡教授曾經擔任黨產條例事件案的鑑定人她主張沒有違反憲法而且還參與卡管案的連署"},{"start":10173.914,"end":10183.621,"text":"更是常常在社群媒體上面發表言論說是什麼看不起台灣人台灣人的金魚頭腦一片難教等等的這些言論"},{"start":10185.631,"end":10205.908,"text":"鄭大的何賴傑教授也曾經在太陽花學運的時候批評當時的行政院院長江一樺說歷史會留下你的罵名他同時也是廢死學者政治立場偏綠陳韻才教授也是挺廢死的學者正是在聯署反對國會改革法案的學者的名單當中他也簽下了他的名字"},{"start":10209.371,"end":10219.738,"text":"王碧芳法官則是許中麗院長長期以來的左右手,雖然主導憲法訴訟法的修法,但在這次憲法訴訟的爭議上,我們也沒有看到她有提出任何立場見解。"},{"start":10225.041,"end":10244.976,"text":"台灣法學界和食物界優秀人才何其多,但是賴清德卻提名了一群具有高度爭議性而且政治立場鮮明的人來擔任大法官。如果這波人事案全數通過,可以預見,岌岌可危的大法官公信力將會被全盤摧毀。"},{"start":10249.233,"end":10269.949,"text":"我們仔細看這次他所提名的這七位大法官其實只有一位具有法院事務經驗那另一位則是政治經驗豐富其餘的五位呢都是學者但是如果剩下的這七位以及接下來就是現在提名的這七位以及現在留任的八位大法官來看他們的這個憲法"},{"start":10272.731,"end":10274.092,"text":"司法院院長、副院長及大法官同意權案公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":10297.594,"end":10315.862,"text":"因為張文正教授他沒有行政領導實務運作的經驗對於司法改革、司法人員過勞等等這些問題到底有沒有能力去解決會不會淪為空有理想而不能實踐最後是一事無成留下一堆爛攤子給司法院跟立法院"},{"start":10317.975,"end":10330.45,"text":"我們知道這幾年來大法官常常自以為是人權的進步者很喜歡將自己的道德信念強加於人民的身上透過視線來造線來造法那麼最後"},{"start":10334.363,"end":10359.048,"text":"很有可能會讓台灣從所謂的民主法治國被顛覆成為大法官治國那麼這樣這一群的大法官呢他們過去常常變更見解或是對爭議性的議題做出與大多數民意相左的判決那麼這樣這樣子的一個態度這樣的做法基本上是違反了我們講的大法官呢不應該要"},{"start":10360.988,"end":10361.689,"text":"《行使司法院院長及大法官同意權案》公聽會議"},{"start":10391.048,"end":10397.698,"text":"但是一旦當憲法法庭大法官成為超級立法者的時候還有誰能夠制衡?"},{"start":10399.4,"end":10422.215,"text":"最後呢我還要再強調的是大法官的選拔不是單選一個人而是我們選擇的是對這個職務名器的重視選擇的是我們對一個全民認同的憲法價值因此大法官的人事案絕不能夠草率通過必須嚴格把關、寧缺勿濫否則將造成憲法災難以上謝謝"},{"start":10427.881,"end":10456.684,"text":"好,謝謝翁曉琳委員發言接下來請登記第7號吳村城委員請謝謝院長我知道院長非常重視我們的在這個公聽會當中的出席那我之所以這個這麼晚到是因為在8樓在審我所主題的壯士待遇促進法那因為必須要逐條討論,我要逐條回答所以以至於"},{"start":10458.125,"end":10475.117,"text":"今天我是代表臺灣民眾黨為一個議席來表達我們對於大法官行使同意權的看法我們的主題是我們需要具備專業素養與良知不受政治影響的大法官"},{"start":10476.278,"end":10502.593,"text":"司法院的政府院長及大法官們堅負著國家司法的最後法律防線承擔著處理重要法證、人權法律的解釋與憲政機關爭議解決的重大責任所以各國對大法官皆賦予崇高的地位不應受到政治力的干擾或讓不具專業素養或德行者來擔任這個職位"},{"start":10505.955,"end":10531.951,"text":"以民主成熟還有制度的完善的美國為例大法官的人選對未來美國社會的道德價值觀的導向是舉足輕重因此被世界許多國家肯定民主化成就的台灣大法官的提名若只是政治的考量與短視經歷將對台灣的民主法治面臨的嚴重危機"},{"start":10533.332,"end":10555.745,"text":"這次大法官的提名名單一出多數人選的獨立性及公正性就被質疑台灣民眾黨在9月23號的時候發函請司法院正副院長及大法官被提名人來填答問卷調查表7位大法官被提名人"},{"start":10558.158,"end":10564.352,"text":"後來卻發表聯合聲明指出暫時無法答覆資格及適任性的問題"},{"start":10566.071,"end":10585.928,"text":"11月26日本黨團再次依法提出的問卷調查表就公共服務及參與法律工作之力司法及法律改革活動的參與政黨及政黨活動等基本資料及大法官領選制度修憲門檻與民主的實踐還有113年憲判至第9號國會改革案"},{"start":10591.973,"end":10615.88,"text":"判決等問題要請所有被提人認真看待並據實來填寫,正是符合獅子審查精神來審慎的行使人士的同意權,讓通過行使大法官能夠超出黨派不受任何的干涉,對國家發展有遠見,能重建人民對司法的信心與對民主機制的信任。"},{"start":10617.594,"end":10629.153,"text":"所以我們再次提出也呼籲每位被提名人在12月10日進行實質質詢之前能夠回覆"},{"start":10630.441,"end":10651.418,"text":"然後請各位自行的判斷這樣的問卷該不該回覆不要看上面的臉色不要等像小學生在等老師的指示如果是這樣的大法官這樣被提名的人怎麼樣來承擔這種獨立大法官連填一個問卷自己都不敢"},{"start":10652.398,"end":10654.74,"text":"大法官是民主國家憲政的守護者,具有重要民主的任務,應該要超然獨立。"},{"start":10675.02,"end":10694.037,"text":"甚至憲法法庭可以審理總統、副總統的彈劾案以及政黨違憲解散的案件因此若大法官失去獨立性及公正性、專業素養與歷練不足還可能淪為黨同華裔的工具"},{"start":10695.834,"end":10723.645,"text":"今年10月25日憲法法庭宣布了令人遺憾民主倒退的國會改革憲判結果身為憲法的守護者卻屈服於權力之下為了落實民主制度權者的分立杜絕行政機關逃避監督的謬框為要求行政官員不能說謊、卸責今年立院三讀通過了國會改革法案"},{"start":10724.125,"end":10749.397,"text":"是為了要健全國會監督的機制矯正政治權利集中於個人或行政權的現況但大法官現判沒收了本應屬於立法委員的執行權、調查權、聽證權讓不符合民主政治運作的總統繼續有權無責行政官員與被詢使可以公然說謊執政黨可以護航不法的官員"},{"start":10751.154,"end":10772.598,"text":"這樣子有可能繼續讓行政機關怠惰避責因此對提名人必須說明清楚對國會改革的立場與見解的論述因為沒有權者相輔的責任政治離完善的民族就天壤地別的差距了"},{"start":10773.769,"end":10789.595,"text":"今年來對於不少機構對於司法信任度進行了民調結果顯示大多數的民眾不信任司法今年多項民調的指標都顯示過半的台灣民眾"},{"start":10790.715,"end":10791.455,"text":"今年8月一項民調顯示"},{"start":10807.918,"end":10833.725,"text":"至今對於之前8年完全執政的民進黨政府所推動的司法改革民眾非常滿意的只佔6.7%還算滿意的只佔17.4%當人民普遍對以表達對司法的高度不滿時在行使同意權時這些人選是否能夠讓司法被信任是重要的考量因素之一"},{"start":10834.645,"end":10853.834,"text":"我們期待大法官在憲政、政治與社會等重大爭議事件上能夠積極地扮演英靈的角色循序漸進地推進國家與社會的變革也必須要有遠大的大法官不考量太多的當權者意志與政治正確"},{"start":10855.035,"end":10871.043,"text":"祈許大法官要為明日而生而非為今日而爭重要的是要具備足夠的法學素養還有獨立性還有豐富的人生經歷這應該是被關注的終點以上"},{"start":10877.552,"end":10899.344,"text":"謝謝吳春城委員的發言特別跟審查小組的委員的詢問跟各位學者專家報告一下,據發言完畢我們現在進行最後一個程序請學者專家針對剛才各位審查委員的所有的詢問提出綜合答覆,沒有學者專家發言三分鐘我們首先再請我們林滕耀教授,請好,謝謝院長"},{"start":10906.164,"end":10931.065,"text":"剛才聽了很多的發言以後發現大家對於憲政的這個東西好像都不太關切所以我最關切的就是現在這些大法官提名人他們對於憲政的看法對於憲政的關切的程度我認為是不及格的"},{"start":10932.918,"end":10960.735,"text":"特別是少數政府、少數總統的賴清德他對於憲政已經有三個大的禍害第一個就是說要到立法院跟人民報告結果他又不來了第二個最大的他嚴重的問題說我當選總統以後行政院長要經過人民的立法院同意"},{"start":10962.11,"end":10983.416,"text":"現在也沒有啊第三個就是大選的半年,當了總統半年多了竟然夥同啊,除了他自己以外還夥同立法院的黨團、民進黨黨團還有行政院和司法院提這個國會改革違憲案的這個案子"},{"start":10984.332,"end":11012.497,"text":"是非常不對的因為你要想想 行政院 憲法規定清清楚楚行政院經過復議後這個行政院要接受立法院的這個決議啊怎麼還可以提釋憲呢更荒唐的是 剛剛吳委員講過了監察院已經不是國會了嘛現在的大法官為什麼要給這個監察院調查權呢這是不對的事情啊"},{"start":11013.629,"end":11041.954,"text":"因為唯一的國會是立法院你把立法院的教材全部砍掉這是非常不像話的大法官吧所以我才講現在的大法官已經變成憲政上的過街老鼠很多的民調都不贊同他們很多的民意都不支持他們所以我是覺得現在這個立法院要站穩腳跟因為"},{"start":11043.936,"end":11068.854,"text":"大法官最重要的是守護憲政體制現在沒有守護憲政你像那個人民的人權各級法院都已經在保護了嘛而且一審一審在審啦所以大法官最重要的職責就是守護憲政現在憲政體制敗壞了這些大法官許忠利這一票人還有這些"},{"start":11070.22,"end":11094.596,"text":"現在被提名的這些人完全漠視憲政體制的敗壞專門跟著要附和民進黨我講的難聽一點就是民進黨化的大法官人民進黨化的大法官能夠受到人民同意嗎當然不可以謝謝謝謝林滕耀教授的寶貴發言接下來我們再請第二位劉書斌教授請"},{"start":11098.895,"end":11110.011,"text":"憲法法庭院大法官是憲法的守護者的確是必須要有幾個非常重要的標準就是專業、良知、操守"},{"start":11111.914,"end":11112.234,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":11139.514,"end":11165.854,"text":"他在於說因為已經是我們因為憲法訴訟法裡面特別強調的是他要能夠他做的是這個已經是變成審判化那這樣的一個司法化裁判化這個過程當中他必須要有法官的這樣的一個資歷然後才能夠知道說他在遇到到所謂的實務經驗上面的時候怎麼樣去應對回應到民眾跟現實當中社會的期待那在這個前提之下的時候"},{"start":11166.454,"end":11167.154,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":11185.748,"end":11209.799,"text":"能夠承擔這些的責任在這樣的情況之下的時候所以他的實務經營就非常重要另外我們看到作為審議憲法作為憲法守護者當中在審議過程當中目前的情況是二分之一全院委員二分之一出席之後二分之一在同意這個情況之下其實都比"},{"start":11211.431,"end":11226.868,"text":"太多的在做憲法在規定的這樣的一個同意權或是說議決法案的這樣的過程事實上都門檻要低尤其像包括在我們剛剛知道的是說四字的憲判的第8號解釋當中"},{"start":11228.269,"end":11252.875,"text":"司法院的對於死刑的這樣一個宣判的這個情況之下必須要全部的委員都要同意法官都要同意這個情況來講更是一個低的門檻既然是針對憲法的守護者的時候特別是如果目前的這樣子的一個二分之一通過的這樣的一個表決的同意事實上是太過低於對於一個慎重來講是沒辦法達成的所以在這個情況之下"},{"start":11253.635,"end":11255.876,"text":"非常感謝劉淑冰教授寶貴意見接下來請第三位我們林俊宏教授請"},{"start":11284.596,"end":11310.717,"text":"謝謝主席其實剛剛聽了前面就是專家跟委員的發言其實我有一個疑問其實最大的疑問是說今天我們到底在審什麼我們是在審前任的大法官還是在審查即將要進來的大法官我們好像在討論的都是之前大法官對於先前解釋的意見那我們對於我們現在要進行人事同意權的這幾位大法官的部分我覺得好像沒有太多的討論"},{"start":11312.498,"end":11335.214,"text":"那再加上我們剛剛的討論好像也避極的focus在兩個部分一個就是113憲判八就是死刑的部分跟113憲判九也是立法院職權行使法的部分那這也是前面的大法官做的那我們是不是在做審查的時候我想立法院在審查的時候應該是要再討論說接下來我們可能會成為大法官的這一些人是不是適合"},{"start":11336.175,"end":11364.311,"text":"而不是去討論說過去我們不認同過去大法官的看法我不認同過去大法官的見解所以我不認同他們所以我也不認同現在即將進來的人我覺得這個邏輯的跳躍其實是有點比較難以理解的第二個部分我想特別提的是剛剛一直提到關於113憲判8死刑這件事情這個部分可以直接拿出來討論的是因為我覺得有很多的誤解其實在法律的實務上"},{"start":11366.413,"end":11392.552,"text":"113憲判八現在被理解成說我們好像創造了新標準其實如果是觀察台灣的實務的眼睛來看的話113憲判八所建構的非犯情節罪嚴重之罪的這個標準從哪裡來的是從我們的公民與政治權利公約來的是公正公約來的2009年通過公正公約之後我們最高法院在2012年開始進行了相關的生死變"},{"start":11394.414,"end":11421.256,"text":"2009年的公民政治權利公約是誰簽的是誰把它引進的如果大家沒有去查 稍微查一下應該是我們的馬總統引進的我們很樂意的去引進國際公約我們很樂意的立了一個施行法把國際公約成為我們的國內法這個是我們先前的一個政治決定那也讓我們的法律進行相關的適用所以最高法院在公正公約的脈絡之下"},{"start":11422.742,"end":11450.395,"text":"依照我們的實務見解跟這個相關的規範建立了最嚴重犯刑的標準然後逐步的把它完整化我們再去觀察憲判制113憲判8它的實質內容跟我們過去最高法院的內容其實沒有什麼不一樣所以剛剛提到說因為我們大法官做了113憲判8影響我們的實務見解我覺得講反了啦它是最高法院的見解引領著我們的"},{"start":11451.906,"end":11453.567,"text":"謝謝林俊宏教授寶貴的意見接下來我們請張建能教授請謝謝"},{"start":11479.958,"end":11486.735,"text":"身為實際上的受害者我講的就是人間煙火"},{"start":11488.647,"end":11511.942,"text":"發生在可能以後也會發生在你我身上的問題剛才提到兩公約我最感受最深的他根本就沒有廢除死刑那要判死刑是要犯最嚴重之罪誠如我剛才第一次發言提問的何謂最嚴重之罪沒有定義"},{"start":11513.322,"end":11514.963,"text":"大法官：第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會"},{"start":11542.415,"end":11561.574,"text":"事先案它跟刑事是不可分割的因為它就影響最高法院逐級的法官的審判怎麼可以分割呢?就像一個刑案它又性侵又搶劫又殺人你可以分開審判嗎?各位想想看"},{"start":11563.209,"end":11582.308,"text":"這第一點我們都知道啦我雖然不是法律專業但是我也有邏輯的思考的能力我們想想看憲法是國家的根本大法剛才很多學者專家還有委員都提到大法官是在維護憲法"},{"start":11585.046,"end":11601.3,"text":"他解釋他偏差了你怎麼維護他反而造法立法所以是不是應該好好的把大法官提名人以往的所作所為做一併的來考量因為事關重大"},{"start":11602.765,"end":11603.966,"text":"公聽會．事由．第11屆第2會期第2會期"},{"start":11627.591,"end":11651.374,"text":"我要引詢指的啦馬遜要順服你才能夠求他好不好求其良世代夫你要求他信切要信使才來知道他求他有沒有智能我們大法官的提名人都是水養豐富可是各方面我們是不是要嚴加的審查我是認為這應該列入考慮謝謝"},{"start":11653.626,"end":11680.074,"text":"謝謝張其能教授寶貴的意見接下來我們再請洪偉聖教授請是 謝謝院長 謝謝在座先進千絲萬縷我只挑幾個重點來跟大院報告第一個還是回應到我剛才在簡報最後提到的如果說大院針對這個人選坦白說剛才聽到很多描述性的字眼比如說大法官要專業、良知、做憲法的守護者真的沒有人會反對但是問題是在於什麼在於說那"},{"start":11680.874,"end":11709.745,"text":"那如果這些人不適合,那適合的人在哪裡?我剛才其實聽著這個羅委員講的一陣言詞說這個實行支持實行他就投不下去坦白說我有點膽戰心驚為什麼?因為這個大家也知道李念祖律師是這個跟職政黨的立場不一定相近事實上也很多社會或在野黨是或者說國會的多數黨是支持的他是實行案的這個代理人那如果要講得這麼斬定截鐵我們要把他排除在外面嗎?"},{"start":11710.285,"end":11719.063,"text":"或者是說剛才說年紀太大就這個投不下去那要把他排除在外嗎這個我一直提到的原因也在這裡就是說我們要"},{"start":11720.56,"end":11747.7,"text":"不要要跳脫那些描述性的字眼具體而來看如果這個人不適合我認為有哪一個人跟他的手背後指一樣而且更好的我想這才是這個有助於整個審訊程序的那第二個我也很認同所謂的這個大法官應該要適合適時的跟當權者對立不過有個疑問啦就是說譬如說我現在在這邊發言到底我是要支持藍白才是跟當權者對立還是支持綠的才是支持跟當權者對立"},{"start":11749.701,"end":11775.187,"text":"我不知道但是我有一個觀察可以提供給大院思考在這些被提名人當中有非常多人提到他們在過去戒嚴時期威權時代的感受跟經驗從而對他的人生做出很大的決定很多的法律人同樣經過了威權跟過去戒嚴時代但是會做出不同的選擇有人即使到戒嚴之後民主化之後仍然鞏固支持威權"},{"start":11776.127,"end":11803.093,"text":"那我們在東歐跟中南美已經看到了有非常多的過去的威權體制現在仍然希望用著利用民主來反民主藉著人權來打壓人權這個是所有新興民主國家的共同擔憂那這一批的大法官當中既然有非常多的這個被提名人有表示過他們有曾經同樣的經驗也因此做出人生的重要選擇對於威權、戒嚴、人權保障有著相當的堅持"},{"start":11804.313,"end":11833.056,"text":"我想這正是我們需要的大法官對於人權、民主、自由的堅持那跟當權者對立就像我提到了目前的台灣社會當權者隨時會改變我們很難說支持或者過去哪一個見解他就是支持當權者或者是跟當權者對立最後20秒我想談省建程序台灣不是德國我們是總統制不是內閣制剛才提到的這個司法院組織法4條的各款如果說大院真的認為只要"},{"start":11833.737,"end":11835.558,"text":"謝謝洪偉正教授的寶貴意見接下來我們請陳瑞仁教授請發言"},{"start":11855.308,"end":11881.438,"text":"我想今天大家都在集中應不應該為反對而反對那我想如果要避免被人家講說是為反對而反對的話我想還是要透過實質的審查來突顯說是有一個中立性跟公平性那我想第一個當然就是要避免情緒性的字眼的話應該會比較好一點"},{"start":11883.69,"end":11894.201,"text":"至於說應不應該考慮過去的大法官的一些見解事實上這個是如果是有用一個角度來看也就是說"},{"start":11895.939,"end":11912.213,"text":"你認為大法官裡面保守派太多了那應該加一點自由派的進去那才能夠讓它平衡這個時候去檢討過去有它的意義在所以不能說都不要去討論過去但是討論過去的原因是在這裡"},{"start":11916.431,"end":11927.584,"text":"第二個當然我們不要因為某一個人曾經聯署過什麼或參加過什麼就反對而應該再問他說你的理念在哪裡"},{"start":11928.553,"end":11944.021,"text":"那你的理念會不會影響到你日後在法律間接上的那種決定還是你會很中性的、很理性的去聽別人的意見這一點再繼續問下去第三個"},{"start":11947.102,"end":11970.604,"text":"我比較具體的意見就是說我認為各個黨團應該在這一次審查之後要把成績單交出來也就是說對每一個被提名人你們的評價在哪裡把它列出來像美國律師公會他們是有把被批評的人列為五個等級然後評分之後送給參議院參考"},{"start":11972.405,"end":11995.532,"text":"所以這種做法我們覺得我國可以把它引進來就是說我們立法委員確實有在打分數而不是說意氣用事啦那最後一點我就說我為什麼會一直強調說曾經在犯罪的原野或者法庭的地板上拿著"},{"start":11996.903,"end":11997.383,"text":"副院長：第11屆第2會期"},{"start":12022.29,"end":12046.795,"text":"謝謝陳瑞仁教授的寶貴意見接下來請蘇彥圖教授請是 謝謝我想要針對三個問題提出我的一個簡單的回應第一個是我感覺到說我們聽到一個論點就是一代不如一代論就可能會覺得說以前的大法官都很受到大家的尊敬但現在大法官已經沒有或者說以前的提名都非常的嚴謹但是這一次並不是"},{"start":12047.575,"end":12071.513,"text":"那我個人從可能要提出一個另外一個解讀就是說也許問題並不是出在說以前的大法官特別優秀後來的大法官越來越不優秀或者說我們這次的提名比較變得比較更更不公正或更不嚴謹而是因為我們的社會改變了我們的社會變得更加的政治對立對立得更加嚴重以至於即便是"},{"start":12073.615,"end":12096.21,"text":"總統提出來是溫和的、理性的、有事格的大法官人選也會被部分的人認為說他非常的不好所以這個問題所以我們進一步就會去希望說我們一方面也希望說我們的大法官都能夠公正獨立的行使職權那我們就會希望我們的選驗程序也能夠"},{"start":12097.091,"end":12097.251,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12116.579,"end":12116.599,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12137.714,"end":12137.994,"text":"副院長：第11屆第2會期"},{"start":12154.44,"end":12154.46,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12173.092,"end":12173.452,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12199.798,"end":12208.583,"text":"非常感謝蘇彥圖教授的寶貴發言也跟各位學者專家特別報告一下非常感謝大家今天歷任立法院非常感謝我們綜合答覆就進行到此"},{"start":12226.109,"end":12247.872,"text":"各位剛才的寶貴發言對於我們立法院這個公聽會對於未來立法委員在行使同意權的時候有非常重大的幫助再次感謝那剛才各位的發言我們都會列入紀錄也跟大家報告一下那很快就會投票了我想這個投票大家"},{"start":12249.335,"end":12249.855,"text":"委員會主席"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}