{"total":{"value":154,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-12-05"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"157850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d215ded33fce1c05af3a99904554a4baaac5f9523a06573a507d8480a73c251d2965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:25:23 - 09:29:38","影片長度":"00:04:15","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:25:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:29:38+08:00","duration":255,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.48159375,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.480968750000002,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.31596875,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":35.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.58659375,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.18471875,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.445968750000006,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.470343750000005,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.51159375,"end":65.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.48909375000001,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.30659375,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.83971875,"end":105.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.46159375,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.05784375,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.40034375000002,"end":175.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.49721875,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.60221875000002,"end":192.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.60846875000001,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.64721875,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.66971875000002,"end":253.54409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.55659375000002,"end":254.80971875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.512,"end":11.608,"text":"我國憲法第7條就已經接觸我國人民無分男女、宗教、種族"},{"start":13.032,"end":37.587,"text":"檢舉黨派在法律上是一律平等的。在臺灣的確有世界上首屈一指的人工生殖技術但卻限定只給已婚夫婦作為不孕症的治療使用可是在不傷害第三人健康的前提下竟然不能給單身夫婦未婚的女性擬同性配偶使用實在是有違我們的憲法接觸的平等原則"},{"start":38.171,"end":53.795,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生"},{"start":56.796,"end":84.621,"text":"國人見有不婚、晚婚、單親的趨勢也有別於過去所以今日越來越多認為生育跟婚姻事實上是沒有必然的關係生兒育女是每一個成年人自己的選擇只要不影響他人權益但是代理育母則牽扯到另外一位女性的身體自主權挑戰倫理跟進步價值知識體大所以人工生殖代理育母我覺得是兩件事情當然要分開處理"},{"start":86.823,"end":105.561,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。adequately,女性首次動卵的年齡逐年降低,人數逐年增加,但是整體的動卵率只有8.4%,這顯示制度不合宜的限制未婚女性跟女同性配偶透過人工技術的"},{"start":106.682,"end":115.765,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。adequate to the law."},{"start":115.765,"end":122.827,"text":"我的版本事實上是同意單身女性還有女同性配偶使用人工生殖技術。"},{"start":125.783,"end":154.032,"text":"但單身女性,同性配偶都是透過人工生殖技術用自己的身體、子宮去孕育下一代,無關乎其他女性的身體,無關乎其他女性的權益。而且生出來的孩子呢,自然要自己撫養。這個法律關係,單純我們相對的事上是放心。不過代理孕母用的是其他女性的子宮,把懷孕生產的風險交給其他女性去承擔,把健康的孩子可能會當作交易的商品。"},{"start":154.383,"end":159.725,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。adequate to be reviewed by the U.S."},{"start":159.725,"end":161.386,"text":"Department of Education, U.S."},{"start":161.386,"end":162.967,"text":"Department of Education, U.S."},{"start":162.967,"end":166.448,"text":"Department of Education, U.S."},{"start":166.448,"end":168.229,"text":"Department of Education, U.S."},{"start":168.229,"end":169.609,"text":"Department of Education,"},{"start":179.174,"end":189.081,"text":"並第七條也明示,兒童具有其生殖知情權,所以本席同步提出本法的人工生殖法的子女跟人工生殖細胞捐贈者親子關係要脫離,並"},{"start":192.756,"end":207.828,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委"},{"start":218.669,"end":222.011,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。netesa"},{"start":239.758,"end":249.822,"text":"所以本席主張擴大適用對象納入女同性配偶、未婚女性保障人工生殖、女子女的知情權。可是人工生殖跟代理運募應該要脫鉤。請各個委員來支持。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2137e921c1abed6048a99904554a4baaac5f9523a06573a507ebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:23:38 - 09:25:15","影片長度":"00:01:37","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:23:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:25:15+08:00","duration":97,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4822187500000001,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.86096875,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.329093750000002,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.48846875000001,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.74159375,"end":97.83846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.442,"end":2.01,"text":"擬具以各為尊。"},{"start":8.215,"end":34.514,"text":"謝謝主席我的提案版本是支持將代理孕母制度與女同志配偶單身女性生育權脫鉤處理這也是今天衛福部提送委員會書面報導中的修法態度那優先處理有共識爭議小的部分並且讓上有許多疑慮沒能解決的代理孕母制度從長計議那未來也期待說立專法來處理"},{"start":36.195,"end":49.474,"text":"那我們今天處理的是攸關人命以及國人健康權益的法案我再強調一次我們今天處理的是攸關人命國人健康權益的法案代理孕母是近10個月不分昼夜"},{"start":51.457,"end":67.285,"text":"擬具〈生命安全以及身心健康、高強度、高風險的勞動過程〉,面對台灣如今的勞動環境,我們真的有足夠的自信說我們有能力保障代理孕母從懷孕到生產的各項權益嗎?"},{"start":69.637,"end":94.273,"text":"國民黨揚言如果要脫鉤處理代理孕母制度就不讓人工生殖法順利修正三讀我覺得我們如果真的重視女性權利我們就不該綁架單身女性跟女同志配偶的生育權讓我們坐下來好好討論法案不要把人民的權益當政治的攻防工具以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"}]}},{"id":"157848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21129f2666edfbe9d0a99904554a4baaac5f9523a06573a507286f51d77010decd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:18:28 - 09:23:29","影片長度":"00:05:01","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:18:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:23:29+08:00","duration":301,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.599718750000001,"end":7.185968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.45596875,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.379093750000003,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.230968750000002,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.32284375,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.836593750000002,"end":35.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.58221875,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.41284375,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.20909375,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.84909375,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.852218750000006,"end":65.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.64096875,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.72096875,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.76721875,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.37034375,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.16284375000001,"end":76.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.11159375000001,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.16034375000001,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.46784375,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.64409375000001,"end":103.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.55471875,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.66409375,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.87471875000001,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.72534375000001,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.75346875,"end":159.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.64721875,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.87409375000001,"end":169.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.96221875,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.49721875,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.10846875000001,"end":179.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.08721875,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.93034375000002,"end":188.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.31784375,"end":190.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.92096875000001,"end":196.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.92846875,"end":199.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.67909375000002,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.80471875,"end":207.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.89721875,"end":208.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.92659375000002,"end":215.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.91284375,"end":229.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.05409375000002,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.61409375000002,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.96596875000003,"end":260.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.15471875000003,"end":263.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.41159375,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.72721875,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.34284375000004,"end":275.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.24096875000004,"end":277.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.77659375,"end":280.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.53971875,"end":282.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.98659375,"end":285.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.55596875000003,"end":287.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.98596875000004,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.04471875,"end":291.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.37784375,"end":293.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.65596875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.58784375000005,"end":299.86596875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.626,"end":26.687,"text":"本席請代表民眾黨黨團對於人工生殖法修正草案提供說明。我同時也代表年輕時候的我。我是一個先天性子宮發育不全的病人,因我名字叫MRKH syndrome。我要代表眾多的病友以及對於代孕有需求的人來發聲。"},{"start":28.909,"end":47.327,"text":"我的手邊名單有上過上千位的名單包括需求者跟願意幫助別人的人1985年台灣誕生了第一個事管嬰兒讓無法自然生育但渴望有孩子的父母親看到了生命奇蹟的可能性"},{"start":48.909,"end":76.531,"text":"2019年台灣通過同婚法案成為亞洲第一個將愛跟平等付諸實現的國家。時到今日婚姻跟生育這個定義早已經脫離傳統的框架而且是一場關乎愛選擇跟權利的旅程在這場旅程當中有人選擇收養有人則需要代孕這些選擇沒有高下之分"},{"start":78.151,"end":102.973,"text":"都是每個人不同的人生答案。這一句話是出現在2004年陳建仁署長為代孕舉行台灣第一次公民會議當中結論的一句。國家的責任不是替人民做選擇而是打開更多的可能性讓每一個人能夠自由追求他的幸福。少子化的問題不能只用口號而是要通過務實"},{"start":104.694,"end":118.308,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 及包容的政策鼓勵並支持他們有意願、有能力的人成家生子,但運法制化不是替任何人決定什麼,更不是寄予別人的子宮,"},{"start":119.793,"end":137.191,"text":"而是希望那些因為病痛、性別或其他困難無法自然生育的人能夠擁有一條合法安全的路在愛與責任的前提下我們推動利他代孕的市住設計讓所有願意幫助他人成全圓夢的女性"},{"start":137.671,"end":146.675,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":160.734,"end":187.979,"text":"那些需要透過代孕來求子的伴侶承受了多少人的誤解跟冷漠但是他們仍然堅守對未來的希望他們的渴望值得被看到他們的聲音應該要被聽到有些人擔心代孕會引起犯罪甚至說出代孕通過後會有黑道把女性抓到診間讓她成為代理孕母趁機賺取暴利"},{"start":189.946,"end":207.057,"text":"我聽見了。但我更相信台灣是一個進步法治的國家。女性絕對有充足的智慧、自主性跟她的能動性。也深信我們的醫療體系擁有足夠的專業跟倫理,為所有的待遇媽媽提供最好的保障。"},{"start":208.959,"end":217.244,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：事由：審查namon一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1"},{"start":237.697,"end":263.074,"text":"有一位在台灣人在美國代孕的孩子因為疫情等其他因素無法順利回台經歷重重的困難之後才終於一家團聚這樣的遺憾應該被制度改變不是再三通演單身國人跟同志的生養權利也是我相當重視的在武漢民眾黨提出的人工生殖草案當中也藉由完整的規範"},{"start":264.471,"end":282.643,"text":"有人批評我是用單身、國人跟同志的人工生殖來綁架代孕這是非常荒謬無忌的言論因為一樣都是要透過人工生殖技術來達成所以當然要併入人工生殖法案來一併處理最後我想說的是"},{"start":284.302,"end":296.831,"text":"將心比心,成全別人,追求幸福。這是人生的最高境界。將心比心,成全別人,追求幸福。這是人生的最高境界。謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"157847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2106a27458d88ce694a99904554a4baaac5f9523a06573a5070a3ad233f9b498fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:13:04 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案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「"},{"start":102.981,"end":118.131,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 但在代孕之前我們能不能先讓爭議較少的所謂單身女性或者是女性同性婚姻者他們能夠來進行自體的人工生殖"},{"start":118.931,"end":141.931,"text":"我想在這個過程當中其實社會上從這幾天的意見我們看到所感受到的就是女性自體人工生殖的這個部分的法規的修正爭議是比較少的甚至於是沒有爭議甚至於是在上一屆我擔任立法委員的時候就已經有非常多的呼籲"},{"start":143.032,"end":168.891,"text":"那麼來到這一屆這是草野高度共識的部分我們是不是可以讓他先走我知道我的助理非常認真的幫我準備了這張A4這張A4也代表著年輕世代的孩子們他們希望在解決問題當中他們所陳述的所以我必須要念一下我相信後面我們衛藩的委員們他們會有更精闢的見解但是"},{"start":170.373,"end":182.818,"text":"我希望身為一個女性身為一個女性的立法委員我們來解決問題的時候是一步一步的向前而不要因為一次到位我再強調一次一次到位所產生的"},{"start":184.52,"end":200.169,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等"},{"start":210.695,"end":237.064,"text":"擬具因生育困難而因而必須可以使用人工生殖技術卻排除了同性配偶導致同性伴侶在生育權益上的不公平形成了法律上的不公平所以本席提出來的修正案主要就是在同性配偶納入人工生殖法的適用範圍讓同性配偶與異性配偶一樣合法的使用人工生殖技術現行的生育跟家庭的夢想"},{"start":238.384,"end":262.482,"text":"則不僅僅是憲法第7條保障的平等權,更是司法院釋字第748號解釋精神具體的一個落實。那麼我們當然也希望這一次的修法後,女性同性配偶能夠透過專業的醫療技術完成生育計畫。然而由於生理跟技術上的差異,那麼現階段尚無法涵蓋男性"},{"start":263.717,"end":277.472,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法"},{"start":283.82,"end":286.843,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"}]}},{"id":"157846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157846","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21acaf570a3154aa3ca99904554a4baaac5f9523a06573a507905b1f1929327f535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:03:12 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這個比較複雜好啦好啦謝謝你身體有沒有比較好各位委員各位官員大家早安我是陳菁惠委員也是陳菁惠醫師今天其實非常感慨會在這邊做這樣子的發言是因為這個禮拜衛福部我們也看到他有一個大轉彎"},{"start":62.9,"end":89.506,"text":"對我來說為什麼這麼多委員還有黨團會希望我幫他們說也是因為他們尊重臨床的經驗還有醫療的專業我身為一個醫師因為醫術所以大家並不會因為政黨傾向而不來看我所以我手上的病人有單女有單男有女女有男男同志有一夫一妻甚至有跨性別這些我都有接觸過"},{"start":91.506,"end":94.168,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 擬具:「"},{"start":121.266,"end":146.307,"text":"那這幾天我接觸到幾個案例他們分別從很久以前就開始聯絡我有時候我也會打電話跟他們安慰一下因為他們從這個賴清德總統時任立委的時候就知道有提過代理運母後來第10屆我們現在本屆許許多多的委員也是有提出代理運母到衛福部的草案釋出的時候都在各大的報紙是頭版所以這些人攔起了一線希望"},{"start":147.108,"end":175.791,"text":"但是這個禮拜把他們從天堂重重的摔到地上甚至有人真的有憂鬱或是輕生的傾向我都有一一打電話去安慰他們有時候也真的沒有辦法太深入他們的感情因為我還是要保持一點醫療的專業但我還是跟大家分享一下為什麼我認為大家可以審慎的去討論所有這些人工生殖之前公布的草案是因為比如說南南同志"},{"start":176.311,"end":203.699,"text":"他可能沒有辦法為他們自己講話他們當然很羨慕各位委員有開記者會也很羨慕很多團體在下面聲援可是呢對於先天無子宮的人或是子宮有疾病的人這個機率大概是4500分之一所以算起來也許差不多2000人左右他們是很平均的分散在各個政黨傾向很平均的分散在不管是單女"},{"start":204.159,"end":230.787,"text":"或是女女同志或是一夫一妻中間都有可能子宮有沒有辦法受孕的問題所以這個問題明明就是一個民生問題而且不分黨派的問題但我不知道為什麼最近卻變成一個政治議題所以我也在網路上安慰他們有這個先天無子宮的人他說他沒有他想要出來開記者會可是他沒有辦法他從小他父母就告訴他如果你揭露你先天無子宮你"},{"start":231.707,"end":233.228,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":248.678,"end":262.002,"text":"如果我願意幫我的兄弟代孕有何不行為什麼我會被冠上一個女權霸權說我是被欺壓我是弱勢而不是真正的互助為什麼別人的價值觀要強加在我身上那我說沒關係我們靜觀其變"},{"start":266.624,"end":268.145,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":286.196,"end":290.279,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":316.716,"end":341.047,"text":"所以我覺得今天我們是在討論的是面臨臺灣未來的生態從1970年女生的生育年齡大概是在20到30但是到現在我們平均年齡已經拉到31、3231、32等等質詢的時候我也會提供一些數據給大家參考許許多多可能會影響到生育的這些良性的疾病也會在30到50歲之間發生所以這個問題"},{"start":345.569,"end":351.754,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及�"},{"start":363.104,"end":390.342,"text":"生育是不是可以在臺灣的每一個角落每一個人都可以落實平權賴清德總統說對於生殖機能有障礙的病人我們應該要以更寬大包容的心來盡量協助他們而非只是一味要求他們放棄生育的權利強迫他們以領養來解決問題何況等待認養的小孩在目前的社會已經越來越少認養別人的小孩幾乎是極為困難的事情以至於犯嬰的事件層出不窮"},{"start":391.342,"end":409.934,"text":"大轉彎之後我相信各位委員也有認識我們一個升職的世界上有名的教父也同時是我們國策顧問。國策顧問在接受記者的電訪時表示說代理母30年在台灣也辦了30多場的公聽會經過30年時機成熟應該要讓其立法"},{"start":413.736,"end":440.355,"text":"當然針對女性團體擔心的勿用子宮問題可以用嚴格的法律來去規範規範脫鉤討論的話只會無疾而終原地踏步所以我也請主席可以在我們接下來好幾場會議都做一些公開的裁示因為其實面對執政黨的委員我只有很卑微的要求我希望大家可以有一個立場因為這些病人啊他有一個很重要的事就是他是不是要存錢"},{"start":441.576,"end":470.695,"text":"但是你們如果可以公開你們的立場的話他們可以決定他們趕快存錢趕快出國還是他們要等待你們的脫鉤那前幾天呢剛好王振旭委員就坐在我的對面然後旁邊還有廖瑋祥委員然後旁邊還有陳昭芝委員所以王振旭委員呢就安慰了陳昭芝委員因為他們兩個長期是癌症病友的好戰友也同時舉辦了非常多的公聽會王振旭委員也安慰了陳昭芝委員說我一定會幫你立轉法是吧王振旭委員"},{"start":471.956,"end":477.462,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 條文修正草案 案件 條文修正草案 案件 條文修正草案 案件 條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":491.095,"end":495.72,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":513.857,"end":524.55,"text":"當然也是從賴清德總統時任委員我只是一個小小的醫學生說實在的現在反對的人說啊原來不知道單女不能懷孕沒有疾病馬上結束馬上結束謝謝謝謝"},{"start":532.065,"end":559.731,"text":"快結束了謝謝不好意思所以我也在這邊非常感謝衛福部的官員因為為什麼我們會提出這樣的草案也是因為許許多多不閃哥的學者他們在這幾年都有被你們找去做專家會議還有出國考察請國外的專家過來等等的才列出這樣子的草案所以公務人員其實也非常的辛苦在這邊非常感謝大家之前草案提出來所有所有的貢獻謝謝"},{"start":562.46,"end":562.985,"text":"謝謝陳昭志委員的說明。"}]}},{"id":"157840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d213349a75775f52162d143e698449c70dc5f9523a06573a507de7eaf727ba7c6f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:20:27 - 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09:15:14","影片長度":"00:03:42","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:11:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:15:14+08:00","duration":222,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.82346875,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.26534375,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.68221875,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.453468750000003,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.883468750000002,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.54971875,"end":36.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.03784375,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.625343750000006,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.56909375,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.20846875,"end":211.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.11596875,"end":220.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.31784375,"end":216.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.41846875000002,"end":221.97096875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.872,"end":7.094,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":15.376,"end":35.342,"text":"法案再次改革。」本席這裡與羅志強委員我們有共同提案,所以我順便也講一下我的看法。那麼軍公教年改就是一個錯誤的政策。錯誤的政策就要及時的停止,而不應該讓這樣的錯誤的政策繼續延續下去。"},{"start":41.165,"end":56.957,"text":"法律的安定性、考慮到現在已經期待要退休的人的權益的保障而法律應該是不溯及既往,要考慮到當事人的信賴保護可是在這次的法案裡面"},{"start":57.757,"end":63.202,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":73.012,"end":74.153,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":89.028,"end":97.853,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":116.003,"end":131.756,"text":"國家說他財源不佳就可以任意去砍軍公教的退職金這是極不合理的事情所以本席在這裡也認為說這次的改革法案是非常的有必要另外我有提出來另外一個"},{"start":132.957,"end":145.614,"text":"公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案。這次的修正主要是考量到我國現在已經是超低生育的國家少子化的問題非常嚴重政府應該要起頭去"},{"start":147.797,"end":148.037,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":166.531,"end":169.753,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":187.402,"end":195.107,"text":"資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文"},{"start":212.219,"end":219.657,"text":"任用法第28條之一。」那也懇請所有的委員能夠支持除了育嬰假之外我們應該也要有預算假。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157860","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157860","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21f46f90323d91cf45a99904554a4baaac629e018aee3adde25427d115afefc0b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:16:58 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案件,是否一併開放代理孕母而發生爭議?」擬具:「是否一併開放代理孕母而發生爭議?」擬具:「是否一併開放代理孕母而發生爭議?」擬具:「是否一併開放代理孕母而發生爭議?」擬具:「是否一併開放代理孕母而發生爭議?」擬具:「是否一併開放代理孕母而發生爭議?」擬具:「是否一併開放代理孕母而發生爭議?」擬具:「是否一併開放代理孕母而發生爭議?」擬具:「是否一併開放代理孕母而發生�"},{"start":117.188,"end":133.893,"text":"持續表達像禮拜二就有人開記者會反對代孕所以請問另外兩個開放選項未婚女性跟女同性配偶各自贊成跟反對的比率有多少?部長這個是不是請署長幫忙回應一下這個目前在上一次的調查裡面並沒有把它個別來做調查為什麼沒有個別做調查?"},{"start":144.319,"end":168.395,"text":"因為那整體600多件裡面來講,80%都是反對,那其他的數目就不會太多。就是那個法案公告我們收回來的600多件的意見裡面,那麼反對的大概有80%多。我講的是,你講的是反對未婚女性跟女童性沒有嗎?"},{"start":170.356,"end":177.907,"text":"除了這個以外另外有一個其他人那其他的他就不會有這個所以我們這兩個數目就不會太多件數就不會太多"},{"start":181.226,"end":183.787,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案〉"},{"start":201.892,"end":216.058,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。נס"},{"start":228.854,"end":252.846,"text":"我們礙於法令規定我們的整體因為礙於法令規定不能使用所以整體的凍卵節凍率只有8.4%所以想問部長這邊台灣女性不想結婚但想生個孩子生產風險自己承擔沒有涉及到第三人不侵犯到第三人的權益的時候衛福部支持未婚女性開放使用人工生殖嗎想再度的跟你們再確認"},{"start":258.174,"end":282.797,"text":"透過版就有了。透過版就有了。透過版就有了。目前透過的版本就有了。我想現在新的透過的版本裡面就有這樣的保護。好,那一樣再跟你確認,一樣是自己的孩子自己生的問題,衛福部支持女同性配偶開放使用人工生殖嗎?支持嗎?透過版就有了。透過版就有這樣的條文。"},{"start":283.826,"end":303.677,"text":"所以本席認為成年女性自主決定自己承擔生育風險只要不傷害他人的權益的話健康沒有爭議可是因為不孕或不想懷孕而要找人代孕則很有爭議所以本席認為衛福部輕忽這件事情的社會衝擊所以衛福部5月16號預告的人工生殖法要開放正義的代理孕母"},{"start":308.42,"end":332.648,"text":"十二月二號吳昭君署長再一次信誓旦旦的表示沒有特別立場。這案子有能力管理嗎?所以想問一下署長你有能力管理嗎?我想我們從5月預告那也是大家一起決定。那個原理當中就是草案草案就還沒有最終決定版本。"},{"start":334.826,"end":361.466,"text":"請問,代理孕母是所生的孩子的生母,但不是法律上的媽媽,而委託代孕的人不是親生父母,但是為法律彌製的爸媽。這個孩子跟偷抱來的孩子在法律上的差別為何?我們在法規的設計上就是,經過了相關的評估以後,最後如果委託代理孕母,那出來的小孩就是視同這個委託者的婚生子女。"},{"start":362.54,"end":369.382,"text":"除了孩子之外,孕婦代替懷孕的法律行為是不是等同於租借子宮?這個我想就是剛剛提到的,到底是認定,我們認為他就是被這個受託者的代理孕婦的一個主體。所以很多東西就是講不清楚嗎?所以為什麼我們會要代理孕婦來脫鉤處理?剛剛陳金輝委員"},{"start":392.708,"end":411.416,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法"},{"start":422.281,"end":426.167,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":440.641,"end":466.473,"text":"為服務有能力去處理這些因為生產不順利或有後遺症所牽扯到的不履行契約、契約標的瑕疵跟毀棄契約的糾紛嗎?先請署長回答。這個委託契約必須要經過法案的公證以後才能夠生效。當初你們版本有處理這些事情嗎?在我們的草案裡面的確是有寫。"},{"start":467.662,"end":489.014,"text":"數字寫得清楚嗎?夠保障到我現在列的這些問題都能夠解決嗎?我講這個都可以討論。那有可以討論,那你5月16號、12月2號還是再度的講說...那因為還沒有決定啊。那我不知道衛福部可不可以去說服偏鄉的老人家阿婆幫女兒生孫是科學技術不違背倫理嗎?署長。"},{"start":494.56,"end":500.503,"text":"我們這個在涉及法律的時候不會去做這個案的啊這個案的話這個是假設性的議題啊這是必須要專列的評估以後才能決定啊"},{"start":511.189,"end":511.97,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":528.872,"end":543.29,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人"},{"start":547.515,"end":549.418,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件事項》案件事項案件事項"},{"start":563.561,"end":580.412,"text":"提出的草案版本是保護的主體是人工生殖的子女跟瘦素人跟生殖細胞的捐贈人跟社會事實上是多數是有共識的可惜我們現在還沒有看到我們的衛福部的版本送進來所以我們很希望能夠"},{"start":582.756,"end":600.762,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案 案件》案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 案件 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文�"}]}},{"id":"157858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21b98e9b87734a3d06d143e698449c70dc629e018aee3adde219d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:34:54 - 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。"},{"start":131.025,"end":139.632,"text":"還是要開公廳會叫一些學者專家厲害關係人現在在做公務人員的六職等的、九職等的、十二職等的代表來講還叫他們退休的叫他們來講一下說這已經年金改革了我本地這全市部給我一張說我現在每年拿多少是這時候我現在拿多少這避一下現在若是說這改革改革改革要往前進那又走回頭路"},{"start":160.788,"end":161.048,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":176.698,"end":181.699,"text":"確認國民黨因為他們很聰明他們的版本有很多他們的智庫也很強大家來比對一下比對一下之後有一些數字大家就比較確認所以我建議我們的召委我們這裡有兩個召委中嘉賓召委、吳宗憲召委我建議這件事給完蛋"},{"start":205.134,"end":206.576,"text":"擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文宣告"},{"start":222.874,"end":225.696,"text":"國民黨為何要改回頭路?為何要走回頭路?回頭路到底有什麼好處?後面是有什麼東西?把我沒吸住還是怎樣?要走回頭路?這講給大家聽,所以我是據你建議啦,據你建議我們兩個召委"},{"start":249.135,"end":249.577,"text":"公務人員退休資遣"}]}},{"id":"157844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d213c9e72393eef766ad143e698449c70dc5f9523a06573a5074f59cd66632241b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:30:11 - 09:32:02","影片長度":"00:01:51","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:30:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:32:02+08:00","duration":111,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.645343750000002,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.636593750000003,"end":109.39784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.663,"end":37.08,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員我想近年來物價通膨非常嚴重基本工資近年來調整百分之四以上現值軍工教條性百分之四那國民年金也調整超過百分之七顯示說這個物價波動對國人生活的影響非常非常的重大那想過去呢這個在調漲的這部分唯獨缺了退休軍工教人員但是我們要強調一件事情現代的物價波動"},{"start":38.061,"end":65.862,"text":"不是這些退休軍公教人員造成的政府理論上要照顧的話應該照顧全民退休軍公教人員理論上也包含在所謂全民的範圍之內所以本期這次提出的是公務人員退休之前撫卹法的第六十七條的修正草案是修訂中央組織機關發布如果消費者物價指數累計成長率達到正負百分之五的時候應該在發布日起三月內予以調整認為把這個"},{"start":67.303,"end":89.253,"text":"條整變成法定的條件而不是由行政院或考試院自己來決定要不要調整我想物價指數上漲5%對我們所有在座所有人在內的生活一定會造成重大的衝擊所以說如果調漲5%但是軍工教人員的他們已經沒有其他的謀生能力的情況下面他退休金還是持續往下降的話"},{"start":90.434,"end":108.855,"text":"會對這些退休人士對我們所謂的這些國民生活造成很大很大的影響所以本席這日提出六十七條修正就是希望能夠補齊這一塊我們希望政府在照顧全民的時候不應該不漏退休軍工教育委員所以本次修法也希望所有委員能夠支持本席這次的修法以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"157843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21a989156b3efc0431d143e698449c70dc5f9523a06573a5077fcbc83bc95981385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:28:24 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09:30:07","影片長度":"00:01:43","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:28:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:30:07+08:00","duration":103,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.22034375,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.58659375,"end":56.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.882843750000006,"end":70.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.73721875000001,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.96471875,"end":102.81659375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.223,"end":30.549,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早主席各位同仁有鑒於公務人員退休撫卹條之前撫卹條例自一百零七年一月一號實行其中第三十七條規定以退休人員的年金所得替代率大砍百分之十五最高百分之七十五最低百分之四十五且一百零九年一月一號起每年還要再減少一點五連續減少十年直到所得替代率"},{"start":31.929,"end":58.055,"text":"最高60%,最低30%。而且又規定年金自107年7月1日起與在職人員的薪俸調整脫鉤也就是說退休人員所領的退休金不再隨在職人員的條薪額同步調整導致退休金被雙重削減以及最近各項民生物資節節上漲"},{"start":59.235,"end":82.462,"text":"通貨膨脹的結果導致退休金的實質購買率下降在層層剝削下恐使退休人員的晚年生活堪慮國家未盡照顧退休人員晚年生活的義務忽視信賴保護原則甚至進一步引發嚴重的社會問題以上種種都有待修法討論改善"},{"start":84.102,"end":95.935,"text":"因此本席擬具公務人員退休撫卹法第三條第八條及第37條條文修正草案已撫明虛。敬請各位同仁致喜本席提案。謝謝。現在我們請黃建豪委員敬請提案說明。"}]}},{"id":"157842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21f9f712e67102a841d143e698449c70dc5f9523a06573a5075d0c75dcc8d4630c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:25:54 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09:28:19","影片長度":"00:02:25","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:25:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:28:19+08:00","duration":145,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.7565937500000001,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.19096875,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.109718750000003,"end":75.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.51284375,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.08471875000001,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.69471875,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.62659375,"end":135.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.97159375,"end":140.32971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.105,"end":17.801,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們公務人員退休資遣撫卹法在107年7月1號施行其中第37條規定以退休公務人員之年金所得替代率最高75%最低45%而且自109年1月1號起每年再減少1.5%"},{"start":24.207,"end":39.518,"text":"逐年連續減少十年,直到所得替代率變為最高百分之六十,最低百分之三十。更規定年金至一百零七年的七月要起與在職人員的薪資脫鉤來調整。"},{"start":43.182,"end":58.5,"text":"這種臨時式的改革對為國家辛勤終生的公務人員實在是一種羞辱我們國家建立公務人員的退休撫卹制度它的要旨就是在維持我們退休公務人員"},{"start":59.221,"end":86.551,"text":"往年的基本生活,善盡國家照顧我們年老的為國家一生奉獻的這些公務人員的生活也是國家的一個義務但是我們看到近年來物價指數不當的飆漲我們也知道老年後對醫療長照的費用也會更加增多會有更多的支出所以我們對於退休高齡者的影響可以說是日趨嚴重"},{"start":88.137,"end":111.362,"text":"公務人員一生為國家任勞任怨奉獻終身,維繫他們退休後的基本生活品質實在是有他的必要。因此國民黨團我們提案修正我們這一次的公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第37條將年金重新隨同在職人員的薪俸來做調整。"},{"start":113.002,"end":138.011,"text":"並自一百一十三年起停止所有所得替代力的逐年降低來保障我們退休公務人員的權益我們敬請各位委員支持本黨修法的提案以維護我們所有的退休公務人員退休後的生活能夠獲得穩定的保障以上謝謝好謝謝現在我們請張智倫委員進行提案說明"}]}},{"id":"157841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21b9eb7abd327cc4cbd143e698449c70dc5f9523a06573a5075e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:24:14 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09:25:44","影片長度":"00:01:30","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:24:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:25:44+08:00","duration":90,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.41034375,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7772187500000003,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.215343750000002,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.30596875,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.84159375,"end":26.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.74409375,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.207843750000002,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.148468750000003,"end":33.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.84846875,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.071593750000005,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.978468750000005,"end":43.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.85534375,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.75784375,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.19221875,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.18346875,"end":50.875343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.46596875,"end":54.047843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.368468750000005,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.330343750000004,"end":55.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":57.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.726593750000006,"end":58.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.228468750000005,"end":61.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.945343750000006,"end":67.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.68284375,"end":72.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.84659375000001,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.48596875000001,"end":90.21096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.435,"end":7.177,"text":"三（委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正"},{"start":23.866,"end":37.77,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":50.279,"end":79.297,"text":"善待他。同時讓有心加入公務人員考試的這群人相信我們這個國家未來會照顧自己。受到所述的意見我們擬具了公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案。我想將年金重新隨同在職人員的心奉調整並且停止所得替代率逐年降低。在這邊也懇請所有的委員能夠來支持這個提案。謝謝。"},{"start":85.503,"end":86.545,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案 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«人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":83.969,"end":112,"text":"賴清德立委提出了《人工生殖法案》內容包括代孕連屬人包括蕭美琴副總統2020年吳秉瑞立委再次提出包含代孕的人工生殖法案連屬人都是現任的立委或是現任的官員如今民進黨主張切割代孕違背兩次國家公民會三次國家民調三次的國家民調治罹患適應症還是為反而反呢?"},{"start":113.373,"end":117.276,"text":"很多綠營車役批評我陳昭芝變了,罵我背棄理想,但歷史斑斑。到底濁世驚飛的是誰?非常清楚是哪一個政黨在濁世驚飛?"},{"start":128.561,"end":145.375,"text":"啊,部長,你八個月的時候,你八月的時候還接受媒體專訪承諾,代理一母要加速解禁,而且這是重中之重,無法和人工生殖法切割。但是民進黨上禮拜一,這個禮拜一上午不過開了一二十分鐘的這個記者會。"},{"start":147.907,"end":171.832,"text":"下午衛福部立刻大轉彎馬上遵照民進黨衛環組的指示把代孕從人工生殖法脫鉤每個媒體問我的時候都說為什麼急轉彎為什麼急轉彎部長你要不要道歉你要不要對應解禁因應其判的不孕者及男男同志道歉部長你是得到關癌嗎你是衛福部部長還是民進黨的硬生蟲"},{"start":177.779,"end":201.296,"text":"你這樣失信於民。部長你回答。你講了話啊。你本來要講的,你現在變成這樣。好,保護委員。我想我們衛務部一向秉持著保護人民健康。我說你的話就好了。好。那我個人,大家也知道我是一個從事幾年來的醫界老兵。我絕對站在...而且我這是照顧...那你就支持啊。你現在反過來了。你先道歉啊。"},{"start":204.704,"end":233.581,"text":"不是,因為在一件事情的討論是由他一直討論嘛,如果是這件事情是很簡單的討論。部長!部長!衛生署十幾年的版本都有代孕,一直到性評委才去擋住。你不會比我更聰明啦。署長,吳署長站旁邊啦,他也不敢說我講的錯啦。我們一直努力在索取各方面的面子。這樣啦,你不要回答,我再問你下一句話,請問你對衛福部的同仁有沒有信心?"},{"start":234.83,"end":263.729,"text":"你對衛福部的同仁有沒有信心?我想衛福部的同仁都是...有沒有信心?你對你屬下的同仁有沒有信心?當然對他們的工作精神專業...好!你有信心喔?信心喔?好!為什麼我要問你有沒有信心?你擔任立委時也關心代孕法案甚至執行國健署署長代孕應該要儘速推行不要讓急於想當父母的人辛苦的東奔西跑甚至跑到柬埔寨"},{"start":264.79,"end":282.867,"text":"而且你在2017年5月13號臉書貼文說:「不運帶給不少婦女同胞許多壓力,讓我們非常的不捨。許多婦產科傳體亦贊同代理一母機制,在合乎倫理的原則下完善地規劃法規制度,以人文光環帶給國人新生機。"},{"start":283.988,"end":310.063,"text":"部長,外部部經的預告草案難道不合倫理嗎?之前的草案難道不合倫理嗎?國建署同仁這20幾年來對代孕制度做了多少研究?開了多少會議?做了多少調查?做了多少會診?你知道他們要加班花多少時間嗎?他們做出來的結果,結果是有一套非常嚴謹跟完整的條文。民進黨一個不到20分鐘的記者會"},{"start":311.264,"end":330.462,"text":"就把這20年來一群公務員累積的薪水全部推翻。你在踐踏我國文官的專業,浪費國家資產。部長,那就是政治霸凌專業。台灣人民看在眼裡,港大待遇人都看在眼裡。你在霸凌國建署。"},{"start":334.738,"end":349.535,"text":"五、委員王國豪等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案﹑政治霸凌專頁﹑我們都知道不印證婦女男男同志都有代孕的需求。就算台灣不通過,他們就必須遠赴重養去國外尋求代孕,那你為什麼不在台灣建立完整的制度呢?"},{"start":350.649,"end":377.167,"text":"在國人在有國家的法律保障的情況下去進行代孕現在卻有執政黨的立委跳出來說代孕的需求不會消失本來就是啊你保證你女兒不會沒有子宮嗎?不會生病嗎?人類賭博的需求也不會消失哇這種水準的立委人類各種成癮的樣貌也不會消失那這不代表我們要建立制度來應對"},{"start":378.752,"end":399.575,"text":"拜託,我問你,把不孕夫妻男男同志想要透過代孕有小孩,跟賭博成癮做類比,這是什麼鬼話?完全沒有肖淫之心,本人原來死不了。拜託你贊成這樣的論調嗎?部長你自己說,請你回答,你剛剛都不回答我的話,你同意這個說法嗎?把代孕類比的賭博。"},{"start":400.936,"end":428.154,"text":"我先回到前面的啦我想我們的核心價值都一樣一定是要解決全國人民各種尤其是弱勢的困難但是所以我們也尊敬尊重這個國建署的專業的一個過程那但是越來發現這個歧異的確社會歧異有可能十幾年前就我們同意了社會歧異博定你有本事做一個我也現在不允許做你怎麼不來做民調你們為什麼不敢做民調"},{"start":428.954,"end":445.765,"text":"你站這幾個月為什麼不做民調?我有信心做民調一定會贏。那你為什麼不做民調?就幾個人圍著你講?吳署長麻煩你請坐,請回座。我在這裡要對所有期判代孕解禁的朋友說,尤其是不孕婦女跟男男同志喊話。民進黨說要代孕立專法脫鉤,這種說法不是第一次,那些都騙人了,以託代騙。"},{"start":454.724,"end":467.506,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第13次聯席會議．立法院第14次聯席會議．立法院第14次"},{"start":468.915,"end":495.445,"text":"請部長看看在右邊這些我有很多的資料那只看這張請問有網友問民進黨的沈博洋立委代孕在歐美行之有年請問委員想法是完全禁止還是有條件放行沈博洋的回答說完全反對意思就是說不管你法案這怎麼嚴謹剛剛很多人講一大堆我們好好完善討論怎麼嚴謹怎麼完善怎麼批評他就是反對到底"},{"start":498.38,"end":505.309,"text":"請問部長,你什麼時候提出專法?當你要擲轉彎的時候,你專法是不是同步提出來?你沒有嘛!你感冒?你們沒有提出專法的時候,就是空口說白話!"},{"start":512.93,"end":520.537,"text":"拜訪委員我想這個都是一個法條的修正都是一個過程我們先先把有動勢的先處理嘛反正對於主張不脫鉤的這個立委我們會好好負責任來審這些法案啦"},{"start":530.084,"end":556.837,"text":"反對代孕人最常拿小孩做藉口,小孩權益當理由。如果這些人這麼在意小孩的權益,那就應該支持代孕解禁啊。為什麼?剛剛我舉例啦,四年前林昶佐立委啊,就接到個陳情啊,因為台灣人在國外生小孩啊,因為有很多困難沒有辦法帶回來啊。這就是為什麼,因為台灣沒有辦法用法律、用安全來保障這個孩子嘛。你讓國人在國外受苦,他面對那麼多法律跟安全的不確定。"},{"start":558.977,"end":562.859,"text":"我想我們有其餘的部分我們一定會盡全力來促進社會的共識。就讓他在台灣出生,台灣來保護他。"},{"start":571.67,"end":587.481,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社"},{"start":599.789,"end":614.218,"text":"然後醫師心理師說OK沒問題的時候又把他別人受精卵強迫把他植入他肚子裡嗎?否定是這樣嗎?然後強迫他懷孕時可以把他生下來嗎?是這樣嗎?台灣有這樣的女性嗎?你也意思是說踐踏看不起所有的醫師心理諮商師嗎?而且剛剛談的都是犯罪行為欸。"},{"start":624.037,"end":647.631,"text":"難道代孕通過台灣就變成法外之地了嗎?就開始一堆人犯罪了嗎?是這樣嗎?會有一個女人會逼到診間去然後去執行代孕嗎?然後懷孕10個月嗎?會有這種人嗎?有基本判斷的東西都知道啦根本就是天方夜團啦把女人當笨蛋喔!難道全台灣只有民進黨女人有自主權嗎?其他的女性都沒有自主權嗎?他想要幫助別人不可以嗎?"},{"start":650.373,"end":670.673,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生存環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生存環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生存環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生"},{"start":671.816,"end":694.106,"text":"現在美國生活他自己有兩個小孩過去順利懷孕他在丈夫和孩子支持下去幫助一對不孕夫妻代孕他說這是一個非常有成就感很開心的事情因為可以幫助別人不然人工有成就感你們也說他剝削別人嗎他說他有成就感你硬要說他剝削別人嗎"},{"start":695.307,"end":705.539,"text":"我等陳菁徽委員上來的時候他告訴你更多的科學證據所有大嶼媽媽你台灣擋了這麼久人家大嶼媽媽都已經有很多已經有幾百位幾千位的研究還有記得"},{"start":707.21,"end":734.019,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":735.765,"end":741.207,"text":"人家已經前進到這個程度了,你還在討論開不開放,欸不要你的錢欸,自費欸!其他人不要罵我,今天就是我是在場唯一的病人,但是我不為自己,我早早就收養小孩,我收養小孩已經30歲了,為什麼我還在做一樣事?尊重每一個人的選擇,有人可以不要小孩,有人要收養小孩,有人要透過人工生殖技術,"},{"start":761.817,"end":771.284,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案．"}]}},{"id":"157854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157854","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2193d53be8d8b7165cd143e698449c70dc629e018aee3adde27c0d8a2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令每一個服務國家勞力從工的公務同仁都領得到退休金。那麼現役的公務同仁包括今天坐在現場這麼多辛苦的公務同仁我們要確保每一位的"},{"start":226.758,"end":228.46,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":250.74,"end":255.485,"text":"不要忘了馬英九時期124場的討論會蔡英文時期是25場的全國討論那現在2024的立法院我們希望惠據社會共識我們嚴肅來討論謝謝那下一個我們請羅志強委員發言"}]}},{"id":"157856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157856","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d215bc1457fe04b9632a99904554a4baaac629e018aee3adde2cb86eaca5078d11d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:03:05 - 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案 案"},{"start":202.927,"end":203.848,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":229.42,"end":234.666,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 案 條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":246.958,"end":275.012,"text":"當我有跟林宜瑾委員分享現在還有子宮移植的手術全世界已經成功130例那這個第一個做的這個教授他禮拜二才來我們立法院參觀他跟我們暢談講我們的修法過程也分享他們瑞典的修法過程也分享他們瑞典即將應該也會開始做這個代理孕母但是他子宮移植手術已經誕下10個健康的寶寶不管是成功率、活產率都到90%以上就是第一"},{"start":276.212,"end":294.173,"text":"到底有沒有要幫助這些人用什麼方法幫助其實他可以幫助的方法現在就是攤在這邊嘛我已經講了嘛第一你有沒有要幫助所有想要為台灣生育的人來做生育第一有沒有想第二如果沒有我希望可以盡快告訴人家"},{"start":295.461,"end":318.559,"text":"如果這一屆沒有我當然那天我是覺得很難過因為陳昭智委員去跟王振旭委員說我們一起為癌友奮戰這麼多年可是你為什麼不同情我的狀況那王振旭委員說沒有沒有我們會立一個轉法但是現場所有的委員又有誰知道自己的下一屆還在這個地方呢"},{"start":318.899,"end":331.473,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委"},{"start":334.396,"end":336.918,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":350.327,"end":352.029,"text":"或黃仁勛等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":369.244,"end":391.291,"text":"所以這件事情我相信部長你可能不知道但是因為我們跟國建署相處非常非常久我知道國建署署長在這方面所花的心力真的很很多很多而且他們考察的機構讀的paper全世界的literature全部review他們是非常嚴謹的在做這樣子的決定的部長"},{"start":393.855,"end":410.587,"text":"你可以承諾說可不可以在您的任內可以至少做一個決定嗎?到底是專法?幾時之內推出專法?或者是就不要做了?台灣目前的民情還沒有辦法達到共識。總之你總要給人家一個答案嘛。"},{"start":413.446,"end":428.184,"text":"八、委員齁 那我想你提的都是心情我們都站在一個醫者情懷我們都了解對阿你也提案過阿那當然在可是在法令的一個設定裡面真的是要"},{"start":429.105,"end":434.31,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":453.928,"end":466.553,"text":"等21、22人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖"},{"start":481.644,"end":506.743,"text":"對所以當我們如果未來我們的確要先把有共識的地方通過的話我也希望我們可以用專業的不管我們是委員或者是我們是官員我們都可以很清楚的跟大家表明說也許有一部分的人是沒有辦法適用的這樣子好嗎如果有社會共識我每天願意為所有的人民做應該做的事情好那你多久可以有社會共識"},{"start":515.665,"end":524.054,"text":"但其實我覺得先建立一個公式,如果大家有心想幫助不同族群的人,那我們就可以找出方法。"},{"start":525.213,"end":537.782,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社"},{"start":548.57,"end":551.373,"text":"有或是沒有他各自可能會帶來什麼後續的隱身的問題?署長你有想法嗎?"},{"start":557.623,"end":580.875,"text":"謝謝主席,也謝謝委員的關心。我想知悉權是兒童權益公約裡面的規範,也是應該要說保障的。但是在監證者,我們如果事先設計了他有同意讓未來能夠知悉的話,那後端在兒童到成年以後追溯也可以在某一些情況下,那麼徵求當初監證者同意的情況下,我想我們為現在這個法案的設計裡面來講就是有雙軌的這樣的方式。"},{"start":585.484,"end":589.968,"text":"所以您未來這樣來提出來的會是雙軌制目前的設計上是這樣對這個會跟美國有點類似是嗎"},{"start":594.042,"end":622.226,"text":"原則上就是尊重雙方,監證者必須要先同意,那後來尋求知悉的人也要爭取要同意以後才會讓他們這個相認、知道。再來這次您的代理孕婦草案雖然您已經切斷了,但是您在上面其實有嚴格的限制植入胚胎的科數,那我有看到其他委員的版本在前半段也有講到說當然你非常保護代理孕婦,我覺得這個非常非常的好,"},{"start":622.466,"end":637.954,"text":"指示我們可不可以把這樣子的概念也引申到不管是單女或是女女或是一夫一妻的這個植入胚胎我們是不是也找很多醫學會或是專家學者一起來討論因為這個你都是為了帶女母的安全嘛"},{"start":638.234,"end":641.576,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":660.142,"end":681.014,"text":"謝謝孫委員的關心,其實我們這個部分已經在納入現在版本的草案裡面的一些規範當中,那過去沒有的話我們在人工生物補助的時候有一些限制。有,有,但是那個補助因為沒有到非常的嚴格嘛,所以其實已經下降了不少多包胎,但是沒有辦法全部啦。那最後"},{"start":682.895,"end":701.067,"text":"最後呢也有委員提出這個版本那當然我會希望說我們讓醫學回歸到醫學我看到有一些執政黨的委員他希望捐贈年齡可以下修到18歲可是其實我在這邊要就醫學還有我詢問過非常多醫學會他們的看法我們這個都是國建署你們自己的圖"},{"start":701.547,"end":716.579,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":725.995,"end":749.054,"text":"我想這個未來如果有行政版本那版本目前我們超越的是以20歲為限那時候是在大家來做相關的討論所以您也認為其實不需要下修是嗎我覺得這個要關於這個專業的一些討論那我們之後我們在一起在主條的時候更專業的討論最後是一個許許多多醫師他會面臨到的問題因為現在呢"},{"start":755.061,"end":764.695,"text":"統計數據因為現在剛有講到說醫療性動亂或是社會性動亂越來越多但他並沒有登入到全部都登入到我們的系統這個您未來也會堅持是嗎?"},{"start":767.99,"end":790.582,"text":"這個計畫已經我們草擬了那準備抱怨因為未來對於臨床者要做醫學研究其實這方面也是非常重要的最後也希望在這個銷毀生殖細胞可以有更多更多的規範因為在臨床食物操作上你會發現說當你聯絡不到這個人的時候你怎麼樣就是聯絡不到不管是寄這個"},{"start":792.303,"end":813.287,"text":"則有些政治機構聽說是寄存證信函或是打電話或是寄平信都聯絡不到這個人的時候這個時候你不知道是不是要銷毀因為有非常多的狀況也希望未來都可以跟署長做交流那之後希望您可以再把執法訂得更詳細一點可以讓實際的操作者都可以有方法可以依循可以嗎這個沒問題沒問題好"},{"start":817.816,"end":818.057,"text":"就這樣,謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"}]}},{"id":"157851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21b8e404fd9ae048b8a99904554a4baaac5f9523a06573a50706b5fab5b46a0e585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"09:29:47 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09:38:32","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T09:29:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T09:38:32+08:00","duration":525,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.485343750000002,"end":130.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.25096875,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.21971875,"end":188.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.09846875000002,"end":190.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.22471875000002,"end":331.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.59096875,"end":333.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.86909375000005,"end":357.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.11846875000003,"end":443.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.38346875,"end":516.1865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.94596875,"end":523.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.1472187500001,"end":525.6028437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.516,"end":28.322,"text":"主席各位大家早我先說明一下我的版本的這個提案說明就是說本法制定至今台灣的關係有很多台灣的婚姻關係多有變遷然後通過這個司法院釋字第748號的解釋施行法同性婚姻合法化也增加了配偶關係的多元樣貌"},{"start":29.062,"end":39.306,"text":"而為了使現行的人工生殖技術得以一體適用於同性婚姻與單身女性,不再受限於異性戀不孕夫妻,所以將這個條文不孕夫妻修正為授術配偶以擴大本法的適用範圍。但重點不是只有這個適用範圍的擴大,重點還在於說,隨著生殖技術的發展,動卵成為"},{"start":50.031,"end":59.738,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員及司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及司法及法制委員等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及司法及法制委員等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及司法及法制委員等19人�"},{"start":69.304,"end":71.807,"text":"擬具〈冷凍儲存生殖細胞保存的品質以及雙方權利義務關係等層面,國際間也因為有儲存衍生的爭議,所以為了確保這一種近期內沒有進行人工生殖的規劃,"},{"start":84.281,"end":93.409,"text":"及非為捐贈他人的冷凍精卵行為的樣態有所規範所以我們必須要嚴格來規範這一些商業的行為所以在本法裏面徵定得從事此行為的醫療機構應該要取得許可而且要有告知的義務以及應與提供者簽訂書面契約以及先業應經主管機關許可等義務其次"},{"start":111.204,"end":129.869,"text":"擬具:「對於得進行生殖細胞冷凍儲存的年齡要件、銷毀生殖細胞的事由等也要予以明定、以知明確。」這個是我們在這個大家都覺得生殖技術上要對業者有多一點的規範。但我們今天我今天還要再講說"},{"start":131.329,"end":148.782,"text":"擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」"},{"start":160.831,"end":162.372,"text":"擬具20人擬具20人擬具20人擬具20人擬具"},{"start":179.278,"end":180.62,"text":"只有20個人怎麼20個人討論出來的結論可以代表民意呢這個是當時他這麼說當時他為什麼這麼說因為因為會議還沒有開出還沒開然後他就先這樣講"},{"start":194.255,"end":197.84,"text":"媒體報導就是這樣講公民審議會議參加的人的確是20個而已而且是20年前而且這兩場相隔8年而且距離現在都一二十年"},{"start":210.157,"end":213.278,"text":"兩場會議20個人20年前已經沒有辦法反映現在的民意以少數民眾參與的形式進行討論絕對不能詮釋成多數人的共識而且當年這個議題的相關資訊已經很欠缺了我講的這些話我再把陳昭智委員就報導裡面講的再講一次他說"},{"start":238.749,"end":241.39,"text":"我念的是新聞報導陳昭志認為公民共識會議的20人根本不具公民代表性他指出藥品臨床試驗如果只有找20個人來做實驗一定不能代表母體實驗結果只能以個案認定自然科學都有這一類限制了"},{"start":261.041,"end":267.669,"text":"擬具〈社會科學的範圍更廣泛〉二十個人怎麼能夠代表台灣的公民的意見呢?這個都是媒體的報導。曾昭之委員繼續說:「就台灣2300萬的人口來講,二十人實在太少了。要說這些人的意見是公民共識,"},{"start":278.962,"end":297.553,"text":"科學基礎上站不住腳,不足以說服大眾,衛生署如果以20人的討論結果為政策依據,將來出爐的草案怎麼在立法院說服看法不同的立委呢?言猶在耳。這一位陳委員現在提到了代理孕母言碧稱2004、2012"},{"start":300.074,"end":304.859,"text":"只有20人參加了公民審議會議的結論是有社會共識的。把公民審議會當20年前的公民審議會民調結果為推動立法的規定但在20年前你就不是這樣說的所以你要拿20個人參與的公民審議會拿出來當你推動"},{"start":322.956,"end":332.886,"text":"由上而下硬要塞給這個社會代理孕母的理由和藉口是站不住腳的。站不住腳的。"},{"start":333.925,"end":357.128,"text":"我最後講歐洲23個國家大家講生理自主權性別平等權站在世界最前面的歐洲有23個國家明文禁止代孕歐洲人難道沒有需求嗎歐洲難道沒有人需求嗎但是歐洲為什麼要明文禁止代孕因為我們知道"},{"start":358.77,"end":375.564,"text":"這個子宮出租出借不是只有單純個人的事,窄化成個人的事,它是徹徹底底健康風險的轉嫁。而且現在你們假借的好,我們一起反對商業化的出租子宮,那麼我們要求利他代孕。"},{"start":376.184,"end":389.613,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查ittee一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查ittee一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查ittee一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查ittee一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查ittee一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖"},{"start":406.765,"end":424.118,"text":"不要在這裡說收養的孩子不是你的夢想只有自己生的才是夢想對收養的孩子情何以堪每一個被收養的孩子他真的都是寶貝我們沈博洋委員就在示範一個最好的示範他把這一個孩子視為寶貝而且就是他們夫妻的夢想他們對待他他不會說他不會這樣講"},{"start":434.165,"end":453.881,"text":"所以不要想到自己的夢想而已。你有沒有做過兒童最佳權利的評估?兒童權利影響評估有沒有做過?沒有。這個制度實行下去以後對兒童的權利的影響評估你們沒有做對兒童的權利的影響是什麼?不知道。你只想到自己的夢想。"},{"start":454.642,"end":458.345,"text":"而做下去以後你們做性別平等的影響評估沒有!性平影響評估也沒有做!所以在這裡就說我們由上而下由立委推動個人的意志然後就硬要摘給社會這個制度我們是想說希望可以脫鉤啦這是不同的概念不同的範球"},{"start":477.358,"end":495.007,"text":"兩個法規範的東西不一樣而代理育母試射到了社會的層次相當的廣、文化層次相當的廣生殖層次、健康風險也相當的廣不應該直接就跟這個人工生殖法綁在一起這不是一條法條、兩條法條、三條法條這麼簡單就可以約束和規範的"},{"start":500.43,"end":522.219,"text":"所以今天在這裡奉勸我們召委和其他的委員我們一定要讓他脫鉤不可以不可以憑你們幾個人個人的意志個人的想要然後就在這裡塞給全台灣這樣的一種什麼評估都沒有什麼權力影響都沒有做的一個代理運募就直接綁在一起通過謝謝"}]}},{"id":"157857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2168e02b3244d19457d143e698449c70dc629e018aee3adde2c2cb998dec49867b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:03:42 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案。五、委員黃昭蕙等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":31.323,"end":35.706,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":56.838,"end":85.488,"text":"如果就是說假設我們要修這個人工生殖法然後走向開放代理孕母如果這個是假設性的那在衛福部的討論當中是不是有這個代孕者的相關配套措施那我們知道就是說在其他國家譬如說美國、加州為例那他們有意擔任代理孕母的人通常會向代孕仲介提出申請"},{"start":87.008,"end":111.785,"text":"接受身心評估確定是否適任提出申請的時候會續名是不是接受檢胎、墮胎、產後是不是願意跟委託的家庭保持聯繫我想請教就是說如果假設我們修這個人工生殖法走向開放代理孕母有沒有這樣的一個措施可以執行"},{"start":113.407,"end":135.764,"text":"好,謝謝黃昭薇這麼精闢的一個了解跟問題,然後想國建署可以召開的公聽會,還有可以說無四次的專家會議我當時在擔任議事公會理事長的時候,我都有特別指派精兵去參加這個國建署的會議,希望去提供專業的一個"},{"start":137.265,"end":145.471,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":165.405,"end":173.327,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案"},{"start":190.911,"end":217.003,"text":"那這個都是大家我是認為我們法律盡量去完備那大家可以盡力來討論如果不完備的地方那當然未來如果朝專法也好或者另外請相關的處理方式也好也謝謝委員大家給我們我們都希望它更完備所以署長所以你的意思是說以目前這個人工生殖法的部分其實它的我剛剛講的那幾項其實還不是那麼的完備是嗎我們是有做了相關多的設計是"},{"start":218.584,"end":226.907,"text":"接著我再請教,我們的代孕可能需要一個服務機構。這個服務機構可能有代孕的律師協助雙方訂定合約。這個內容除了代孕的費用,"},{"start":242.273,"end":256.61,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。二、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。一、委員林宜瑾等19"},{"start":258.031,"end":286.917,"text":"此外,委託家長需要為代理孕母買保險,負擔孕產、懷孕期間的醫療、交通或工作上的損失,或是育兒支出必要的支出。在這次的《人工生殖法》當中,如果沒有脫鉤、沒有另立專法的話,在這樣的法律當中可以做一個"},{"start":287.757,"end":314.699,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案 》案。議員剛剛提到的我們在這個設計裡面來講其實是對剛剛提到的相關的一些企業那相關的一些身體自主錢、兒女自息錢還有剛剛提到的特別是有關利他的這樣的一個方式那未來這樣的機構我們是設定在公益法人機構來做相關的一些服務"},{"start":315.439,"end":339.334,"text":"那有關剛剛中間的環委錢或者是中間的這些自主錢都有在法律上希望能夠有一些幫忙跟協助就是有一些規範。那署長我想請教就是說我們要立這一部法其實這個關於就是說我們這個在法令上的協助你們有跟法務部這邊有做一個討論嗎?或者是只有你們衛福部這邊自己內部的一個討論?"},{"start":340.578,"end":343.179,"text":"此外,在草案當中,您提到一個代孕價格換算約為100萬元。"},{"start":366.295,"end":392.795,"text":"這個是媒體換算的而且沒有問過我們所以這個100萬如何算的對所以我想問一下這是媒體自己算的不是我們算的不是你們自己放出來的嗎沒有沒有那個是媒體自己寫的冠上衛福部的我們的護藥署的副署長的名字那是我們後來有跟這個媒體有抗議過那也就有向外來修正他並沒有問到我們這樣的一個評估記者"},{"start":393.395,"end":396.417,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案》案。"},{"start":413.806,"end":432.583,"text":"昨天媒體是說100萬,那你說這個不是你們講的,那未來可能有一個對價嗎?多少價格?可能就是剛剛講的營養費,或者是可能他的工作損失的這個費用,那這個財務上的這個保障是由誰來保障?"},{"start":433.447,"end":459.555,"text":"所以我們目前草案的設定裡面來講必須要成立一個信託專務來做處理所以這個委託者必須要把這些相關的兩方談好的這些利他的包括剛剛的行政、諮詢、營養、檢查、生意、作業制還有工作的損失等等大家有一個合與或是把這筆檢討請到信託裡面去處理所以你們也有跟信託工會或者是警官會這邊有做討論"},{"start":462.216,"end":483.492,"text":"接下來我再請教一個問題就是說其實在坊間一般的民眾會覺得會有道德上的風險也許他可能是受到這個女性可能也許受到家庭的壓力或者是他這個女性可能是經濟弱勢那不得不來從事這樣的一個代理"},{"start":483.712,"end":490.841,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":502.97,"end":515.116,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":531.737,"end":554.988,"text":"跟委員報告一下,因為其實剛剛提到道德是很難用法律來做規範。有一些事情它是道德上的問題,但是我們在這個涉及,為什麼我們剛剛提到道德,在討論說是不是現正親等,其實現在現正就會剛剛委員所說的,在我的看法,它就會很容易淪入到家庭的一個倫理的壓迫的一些問題,或者被迫性的一些問題。"},{"start":555.848,"end":570.144,"text":"所以我們過去的設計上並不贊成用五等性來做限制而是要選擇這個代理一母的評估適合不適合來做這樣的機制來做管控盡量避免這種家庭倫理的一些壓迫的問題"},{"start":572.226,"end":587.471,"text":"最後我要講的就是說這個人工生殖法有關代理育母的部分其實在地方還有很多的爭議所以我是認為就是說我們那個法應該要更完備那避免造成社會上的"},{"start":588.331,"end":594.054,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":611.741,"end":617.513,"text":"好不好,是不是請部長再回應一下。好的,謝謝委員的指教。我們會來努力。好,謝謝。謝謝黃昭偉。"}]}},{"id":"157875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d216c2484aa30402553d143e698449c70dc773b3fa48179a30d10bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:08:24 - 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文官 文官啦 謝謝沒有 您發展好了 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案。」案。謝謝主席,有請我們的部長。請部長,謝謝。部長你好,我想要先請教"},{"start":29.127,"end":50.828,"text":"另一個議題,前天12月3號的時候是檳榔防治日那衛福部也預告宣布說年底前要預告這個檳榔危害防治法的草案那當然就你們衛福部的立場的態度就是要對於這個被列為國際癌症研究機構IARC證實的第一類致癌"},{"start":51.889,"end":70.195,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":82.031,"end":91.656,"text":"那個前面幾年當中當然也一直在溝通啦那監察院也一直有請衛福部去說明甚至到達比較"},{"start":94.889,"end":101.952,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":122.418,"end":139.838,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":140.979,"end":164.207,"text":"那也是臺灣十大癌症的第六名各案數每一年有8000多人次那其中超過九成是男性有7400人左右並且口腔癌的死亡率也非常高所以要消滅口腔癌是不是在檳榔上要先消滅檳榔的這個部分或者是這個種植等等的相關的"},{"start":165.512,"end":182.401,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":190.825,"end":203.591,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法"},{"start":204.807,"end":228.505,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝委員。我想我們先把我們要考慮到的,那當然福福民情、減緩社會衝擊的部分分四個方面來進行規範。那這個預告以後也徵求大家的意見。除了這個以外,其實我們也一直在輔導農業種植者,也提出了...那這輔導很久啦,這是農業補主責的啊。這跟你有什麼關係?你是為了人民健康吧?"},{"start":229.125,"end":249.43,"text":"那就是我們要跟農業部一起同行吧,變成這件事情做得更周全啦。跟委員報告我...所以這個議題也是所謂的這個叫做什麼社會...我照顧過很多口腔癌的病人。對,所以我想你應該很清楚。其實我是照顧末期,那真的是生活品質,可以說是所有癌症裡面。"},{"start":251.05,"end":263.853,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「"},{"start":269.815,"end":294.69,"text":"因為你們現在檳榔專法好像以學校跟兒校場所為重點管理對象那當然包含也參考現行的這個煙害防治法不應該販售給未成年檳榔喔可是部長我覺得這個不能販售給未成年及禁止進入校園這不是本來就應該做的嗎可是我也想要問說你只針對這個部分那你有看過幼兒園的小朋友吃檳榔嗎還是國小生吃檳榔"},{"start":295.831,"end":314.618,"text":"因為我覺得如果是真心有要達到健康台灣的政策不是應該是針對主要食用的人口去做管制嗎?或者是行為的改變嗎?那我覺得這部檳榔專法看起來就是不是為德不足喔其實就是打假球看似好像有管制實際上卻是無為而治那從數據上看起來"},{"start":316.679,"end":330.627,"text":"是哪些年齡層才會開始吃檳榔啊所以部長我想你也長期照顧喔國人健康不能等啊那對於管制這個檳榔的事情不能再塗鳥形態為什麼好像做半吊子根本沒有在管啊"},{"start":331.408,"end":354.578,"text":"好,謝謝委員的指教。我想委員的建議非常的重要。我們會,例如在這個草案的過程當中,來增加這樣的一個討論的一個主題。希望能夠更有效的來,真的來減少我們口腔癌罹患的危險。對,因為你冰浪也是吃到嘴巴的東西喔。所以目前法規上、法制上有的漏洞還不算,其實食品安全也要顧慮嘛。"},{"start":355.478,"end":358.502,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":377.367,"end":387.398,"text":"對部長我跟你報告一下俗稱的倒吊子其實每200顆檳榔裡面就會出現少數反過來頭下尾上的這種倒著生的檳榔就是倒吊子啊"},{"start":388.428,"end":405.014,"text":"其中他們都會含一般的檳榔兩倍以上的這種檳榔鹼會讓他們很興奮甚至有時候過度興奮會休克所以倒吊子也被稱成這個土產搖頭丸那歷年來也都有很多人吃了之後就不小心發生了生命的危害"},{"start":405.994,"end":432.584,"text":"所以我想要問一下部長那這樣子到底要怎麼處理啊?我們總不能開放一種產品然後就告訴大家說暴斃是機率的問題啊吃檳榔跟在玩這個俄羅斯輪盤一樣這種高風險我們能夠接受嗎?那部長遇到這個事要怎麼做?我們其中有一個面向就是查核跟檢驗檳榔還有它的顏料啦如果說我們這個都可以台討論看看我們現在當然是避免它重金屬這方面"},{"start":433.824,"end":457.782,"text":"部長可是顯然你的這個知識是有一個很大的落差喔農業部的農業知識入口網站也告訴大家稻釣子是沒有辦法處理的問題喔它是機率問題也沒有辦法在採收的時候剔除所以部長你剛剛所謂的檢驗到底要怎麼做啊這問題也是很嚴重的對吧市面上流通這麼多檳榔你怎麼有辦法找到每個稻釣子在出現在哪裡"},{"start":458.888,"end":462.43,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":483.323,"end":510.736,"text":"所以部長大家都知道檳榔的危害我想要建議的是說你們是不是應該要針對食用人口進行調查也透過政策去引導使用者的行為轉變讓國人徹底擺脫檳榔的危害部長我想有很多人你應該也治療過很多這個口腔癌的病患他當然還沒得癌之前他可能會覺得說你禁止他吃他很不爽可是他得了癌之後他如果康復了他是不是他得了癌之後他是沒辦法後悔的對不對"},{"start":512.383,"end":538.511,"text":"幾乎是沒辦法後悔的那很多人真的復癌就是手術過後變好了之後他才開始不吃這些東西所以我認為部長你不可以說因為這種選票的考量你應該要秉持你的專業而且秉持這個衛福部長你人心人數過去的這個精神你明明知道源頭是怎麼處理你就應該從源頭開始下手讓這些人不要到了後悔才來不及啊"},{"start":539.144,"end":557.294,"text":"好,我想這個是我們要努力的方向對於risk factor危險因素任何癌症的危險因素我們都要先來去除只是說在考慮到民情跟怎麼樣做會比較符合大家的一個期望一步一步來努力方向是正確"},{"start":557.954,"end":573.543,"text":"對其實部長同樣的議題喔雖然我剛剛是用檳榔專法貼入喔最後還是回到一下這個人工生殖法最大的分歧喔其實就是剛剛一直在討論人工生殖跟代理孕母兩個要不要脫鉤喔可是你們先前的立場是兩個包裹在一起喔那"},{"start":574.483,"end":595.038,"text":"有部分的民進黨的委員認為部長的立場偏向代孕不脫鉤,導致對立相當大。那也在質詢台上多次抨擊你。那現在部長卻有說本來就有兩個版本,然後要改成改脫鉤的那個版本。為什麼?還是想要問一下,到底為什麼讓你有所轉變啊?因為10月份的時候衛環委員會應該也討論過這一題。那你當時你們也在捍衛原來的版本。"},{"start":599.441,"end":608.776,"text":"總不到兩個月政策大轉彎,請問這一樣是受到什麼樣的壓力嗎?還是剛剛提到跟這個檳榔專法有很多類似的是選票考量嗎?還是什麼的問題?"},{"start":609.693,"end":632.323,"text":"我想衛福部沒有什麼選票考量,我們就是專業、認真執行。是啊,我們覺得你應該秉持專業嘛,對不對?所以有關這個代孕的部分剛也很多人提到啊,其實過去早在...我想早上委員也應該可以看到兩邊的一個提案者多麼激烈的爭辯,所以這就是一個真的分歧非常大,如果我們"},{"start":633.403,"end":656.002,"text":"所以我也是想要呼籲一下剛剛我們很溫暖的蘇清泉召委我覺得他剛剛講的是很溫暖這其實是一個在很民生然後很幫助可能是在幫助解決很多病患或者是有需求的人不應該是這種劍拔弩張的感覺我看剛剛我們陳吉輝委員代理主席也是很溫和的在講很多"},{"start":656.622,"end":658.803,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"}]}},{"id":"157872","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157872","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2181eb2fa1355bc772d143e698449c70dc629e018aee3adde294c2a44ecd674d185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:51:21 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案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":103.186,"end":124.121,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由"},{"start":125.632,"end":130.214,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":142.098,"end":158.954,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人�"},{"start":159.915,"end":187.82,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文"},{"start":188.963,"end":216.677,"text":"我們屏東縣每年 我小的時候我們屏東縣一年生一萬四千、一萬五千個小孩捏啊你覺得他現在生幾個?生三千幾個啦?四千個?尾數都不夠啊啊我屏東縣去年2023年過世了多少人你知道嗎?九千五百多個然後生出來想要整四千兩百個 連一半都不到啊這個下去就整四、六六啊"},{"start":217.944,"end":236.779,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修"},{"start":247.679,"end":250.973,"text":"然後非法的移工也睜一隻眼閉一隻眼嘛,因為什麼?都沒人啊。"},{"start":254.5,"end":276.258,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社"},{"start":279.386,"end":301.891,"text":"我覺得好像一群在維吾爾成為歐製委員跟維吾爾成為衛委員然後衛務部也加入維吾爾的行列有必要這樣嗎?連賴清德、連蕭美琴副總統他們以前都同意、他們以前都鼓勵到現在就只好總統副總統出來講講話吧有那麼嚴重嗎?"},{"start":306.358,"end":310.82,"text":"請問男男怎麼生小孩啊?男男一定要經過代理義母的方式"},{"start":323.161,"end":339.984,"text":"所以你說同性結婚、同性婚姻、女女的婚姻、男男的婚姻現在好不容易都說服家長都同意了組成家庭了,這個我也讚賞但是男男現在這一次的法有沒有講到男男要怎麼生下來?"},{"start":341.906,"end":366.579,"text":"沒有。單身的女性,她要身上有自主權,還有女女,她要的話也是剛剛講的那種監禁的方式嘛,對不對?不過現在監禁是一定要知道來源是誰,有沒有健康要做檢查,有沒有這樣規定?根本來報告,現在的法規裡面監禁是匿名的,但是要監禁一定要做事先的評估。"},{"start":367.492,"end":393.245,"text":"所以還是要對這個Donor做嚴格的身體檢查還有心理評估等等那他捐給誰?知道嗎?不知道目前是不知道但是要執行這個手術的時候人工生殖機構必須要有一個查詢機制有查核機制嘛應該是吧不像我們以前當醫學生的時候那真的是打名字帳現在不應該這樣了吧現在應該有"},{"start":396.618,"end":418.648,"text":"好的還是說你他我們這個同學的他女兒兒子要結婚交的男朋友一定要做fingerprint或者是做基因檢測啊不然的話很危險你因為台灣太小啦美國我知道美國是這一點不對我不知道啦美國公建金你的金從要拿去要離開1000公里以上有這個規定嗎"},{"start":421.615,"end":422.155,"text":"我以為1個人可以分5、6個,那還得了"},{"start":436.802,"end":461.664,"text":"所以我要報告的是指工有問題的人很多然後跑到國外去我們知道一些站牌面上的很多人都跑到國外去那不要指名啦指名就不好意思啦齁那領養我對領養有很concern因為領養我去跟他吹出來齁失敗率解除領養關係50幾%"},{"start":465.143,"end":492.739,"text":"所以你不要想說領養所以每一次黃淑英吧委員就賭那個陳菁二委員說你去領養就好,你就去領養他就真的有領養啊我們檯面上的政治人物也有領養也有解除領養關係因為現在領養一定要讓他知道他會去找原生父母然後他反正搞到後來不方而善的太多太多了所以領養是下下車啦"},{"start":493.559,"end":513.034,"text":"此者有一個,夫妻代替有一個人的DNA,精子、卵子不管,有一個,這樣他也覺得有踏實感,他也覺得是自己的孩子。所以這個是,我不管你怎麼做啦,好事啦,我都總贊成啦。要脫鉤,你要立專法,請問你是要立專法還是修改《人工生殖法》?普通,你還要立一個專法很懶的耶。"},{"start":521.01,"end":536.731,"text":"現在的方向先脫鉤就是說先有共識的先處理嘛,讓那些單身女性、女性同性的這個部分有一個可以用人工生殖方法來處理,這個比較爭議的"},{"start":538.683,"end":564.338,"text":"我們現在再來尋求社會共識,看能不能尋求大家的共識。當然我們在法案、倫理各方面的文獻其實都收集很多,再來就是社會的共識。社會的共識哪有共識,當然我們可以繼續來努力。我是覺得人工生殖法修就好,修法比較簡單,你要立一個專法很困難,尤其像這樣朝野現在的氛圍。"},{"start":565.936,"end":568.337,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":589.039,"end":612.433,"text":"當然我也希望代理人做得更好,但是你們不喜歡,我們再研究看看。他們是用好的心情,有什麼好吵架的呢?怎麼吵得這麼厲害?剛剛林宜瑾說,我說你能跟你人戰爭,我是講真的啦。我們男性的議長、署長,不要說我的啦,我絕對不想說我的,說的就比較難看啦。好,謝謝。好,謝謝各位。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157859","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157859","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d218005c3cd7e365b2dd143e698449c70dc629e018aee3adde2e588b5cd50b116635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:39:16 - 10:42:42","影片長度":"00:03:26","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T10:39:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T10:42:42+08:00","duration":206,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.961593750000002,"end":22.508468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.52534375,"end":24.668468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.039718750000002,"end":29.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.59596875,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.17784375,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.392218750000005,"end":46.150343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.96034375,"end":48.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.985343750000006,"end":66.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.44659375,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.19846875,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.70846875000001,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.37221875,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.28596875000001,"end":126.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.64409375000001,"end":127.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.33159375,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.89659375000002,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.73846875,"end":201.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.76284375,"end":206.63159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.913,"end":31.229,"text":"謝謝張委我們在場所有的委員各位媒體朋友這個是一個很棘手的一個問題啦剛剛我也聽了羅志強委員的一番的一個發言慷慨激昂啦但是這個過程裡面情緒又波動了這個社會又要波動了但是該面對的還是要去面對我很誠懇的來講我相信過去從蔡英文時代"},{"start":32.25,"end":34.654,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":46.971,"end":50.055,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":67.535,"end":85.362,"text":"除非你要把整個制度全部都砸爛掉了都把他給砸爛掉了那不然各位去看一看不管是大法官4至781號談到的軍人的年改或者說4至第782號的公務人員的一個年改或者說4至第783號裡面的教師的年改都有去碰到一個問題就是說三個退伍保障的相關法規範裡面"},{"start":92.765,"end":95.228,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":111.528,"end":125.843,"text":"也就是說到底這樣的一個改革有沒有違反信賴保護原則我想信賴保護原則裡面從這幾號的大法官會議解釋裡面其實他講得很清楚啦開源的部分一個基金裡面你本來就是只有開源還有就是節流"},{"start":128.465,"end":136.688,"text":"撫卹法第七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬"},{"start":157.875,"end":158.316,"text":"二）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":174.918,"end":200.373,"text":"再重新做一個最後的一個役助那又涉及到全國納稅醫務人所以這個議題其實好好的來做一個公聽好好的做一個討論可以大家心平氣和來做一個討論倒不是壞事我們過去常常在談的就是所謂的世代的一個正義那這一些到底是符不符合重新再來檢視一次我倒覺得在立法院裡面本來就是可以來討論以上謝謝"},{"start":203.8,"end":205.932,"text":"撫卹法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"157873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21966737ed167142d4d143e698449c70dc773b3fa48179a30d1c9e0eb0984d72d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:56:52 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11:00:26","影片長度":"00:03:34","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T10:56:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T11:00:26+08:00","duration":214,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.122843750000001,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.204093750000002,"end":79.59659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.08596875,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.46846875,"end":93.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.95721875000001,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.84221875,"end":116.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.48096875,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.76221875,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.18346875,"end":142.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.09721875,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.75346875,"end":212.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.39409375000002,"end":214.61346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.725,"end":25.285,"text":"謝謝主席我還是針對因為我是會議詢問所以還是針對一些程序問題來我很贊成剛剛吳思耀委員以及吳佩儀委員講到的要嘛就是撤案要嘛就是公聽會但是我還是必須要表達一下我的一個立場就是我個人其實覺得非常的感動"},{"start":26.426,"end":44.879,"text":"為什麼會這樣子呢?就是因為從上個會期一直到現在其實國民黨和民眾黨一直在去審查還有去通過一些直接違憲的法案或者破壞我們國家安全的法案所以我們只好一天到晚就是要為了維護這一個國家的安全而不斷的去提到"},{"start":45.299,"end":47.462,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":62.781,"end":78.926,"text":"從上個禮拜我們看到高金對於這個原名組織法直接把這個威權時代相關的議案往後排然後直接不予討論然後在原名裡面的組織做了什麼事情只要不是我的人就給我全部變成無極職"},{"start":80.166,"end":99.998,"text":"不是我的人就不准給我領薪水,就直接提出這樣的提案只要照顧他自己的人,這樣對他們來講才叫正義所以我們今天看到一模一樣的年金也在做一樣的事情只有我國民黨認定的公務員才叫公務員我國民黨不認定的公務員就不叫做公務員"},{"start":100.999,"end":122.384,"text":"原來的年金改革為什麼可能會破產最主要的原因就是因為他是犧牲現在的公務員犧牲最近正在即將要退休或者剛退休的公務員的錢去補什麼補國民黨喜歡的公務員所以當國民黨口口聲聲的講說他是在為公務員為軍警謀福利的時候"},{"start":122.944,"end":123.445,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":143.266,"end":168.294,"text":"所以我們在犧牲這些人的情況之下就只為了以前的不正義然後要把錢全部交給國民黨喜歡的人這不是很奇怪的一件事嗎但是呢我還是很高興能夠有這樣的機會我們有這樣的一個討論因為這就是一個內政的一個事務我們認為要照顧所有的公務員所有的軍人所有的警察"},{"start":168.934,"end":171.736,"text":"而國民黨只想照顧他們自己認定的人。」"},{"start":198.914,"end":199.174,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"}]}},{"id":"16345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16345","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d4d2bbad01105bb9c9b5fa2f296a93534a82e37f9ba35fd77f6f31faefb4eea535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管收支部分。（處理）（12月4日及5日二天一次會））","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-05T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T11:53:00+08:00","duration":12181,"影片長度":"03:23:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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退除役官兵服務"},{"start":2242.483,"end":2247.029,"text":"救助與照顧6億2888萬元第5目一般行政37億8580萬9千元第6目農民醫療照顧26億3615萬2千元第7目農民安養及養護75億4560萬2千元"},{"start":2259.861,"end":2289.22,"text":"第8目費營業特種基金五列屬第9目一般建築及設備五億九千零六十四萬六千元第10目第一預備金一千九百萬元第11目退出役官兵退休給付一千零五十六億三千六百四十六萬六千元第12目退出役官兵退休業務六百一十四萬四千元現在宣讀委員之預算提案第一案稅入第四款財產收入租金收入增列三百萬元為馬文君等案提案"},{"start":2289.96,"end":2311.802,"text":"第2至第4案系稅出第一目各種種及其分院臨床教學與研究之提案第二案凍結兩千萬元委員陳煥亭等人提案第三案凍結五百萬元委員馬文君等人提案第四案凍結兩百萬元委員黃仁等人提案第五案稅出第二目凍結兩百萬元委員王定宇等人提案"},{"start":2313.206,"end":2329.091,"text":"第6案（第7案系第二幕退除役官兵就學輔導措施業務費之提案。第6案（凍結10萬元委員王定宇等提案。第7案（凍結10萬元委員黃仁等提案。第8案（第9案系第二幕退除役官兵職業技術訓練之提案。"},{"start":2331.192,"end":2349.546,"text":"第8案凍結50萬元委員盧美琳等提案第9案凍結10萬元委員林益君等提案第10案至第13案系第二幕退除役官兵職業技術訓練業務費資提案第10案凍結200萬元委員黃仁等提案第11案凍結200萬元委員黃仁等提案第12案凍結150萬元委員馬文君等提案第13案凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第14案"},{"start":2357.552,"end":2383.387,"text":"第3目﹐榮民健保醫療部分負擔凍結4000萬元委員陳冠廷等提案。﹐第15案第4目﹐基本行政工作維持凍結20萬元委員林益君等提案。﹐第16案至第21案系第4目﹐基本行政工作維持業務費之提案。﹐第16案凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案。﹐第17案其他業務租金凍結50萬元委員黃潤等提案。﹐第18案物品檢列50萬元委員馬文君等提案。﹐第19案"},{"start":2387.25,"end":2415.725,"text":"一般事務費檢列20萬元委員黃人等提案。（第20案一般事務費凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案。（第21案一般事務費凍結50萬元委員黃人等提案。（第22案第4目志工服務照顧榮民作業凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案。（第23案第4目志工服務照顧榮民作業業務費凍結10分之一委員黃人等提案。（第24案第4目榮民榮卷一卷"},{"start":2416.792,"end":2425.322,"text":"吉蘭救助及慰問、獎補助費凍結20萬元為馬文君等天第20案第4目（業務費凍結50萬元為馬文君等天第26案至第27案系第4目（單身頑固榮民、善後、商帳及遺產管理作業業務費凍結20萬元為馬文君等天第27案"},{"start":2437.334,"end":2465.611,"text":"業務費大陸地區旅費凍結3萬元委員林柱英等提案。（第28案至第29案系第4目海內外退伍軍人聯繫作業業務費之提案。（第28案檢列20萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案。（第29案一般數費凍結60萬元委員陳冠廷等提案。（第30案第4目獎補助費凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案。（第31案第4目國軍登山退員宿舍"},{"start":2466.912,"end":2485.956,"text":"服務與管理凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第32案至第34案系第4目國軍單身退人宿舍服務與管理優惠之提案第32案凍結30%委員徐巧欣等提案第33案凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案第34案凍結77萬元委員林楚英等提案"},{"start":2491.127,"end":2510.139,"text":"第35案第5目基本行政工作維持凍結100萬元委員沈伯陽等提案第36案至第38案系第5目基本行政工作維持業務費之提案第36案簡列400萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第37案業務費簡列524萬7千元委員馬文君等提案第38案凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案第39案"},{"start":2520.646,"end":2533.771,"text":"第5目,基本行政工作維持設備及投資,減列50萬元,凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案。第40案,第5目,幹部在職及藝男替代役訓練,減列54萬元委員林柱英等提案。"},{"start":2534.488,"end":2544.151,"text":"第41至第43案系第5目辦理統計與資訊管理作業業務費之提案第41案凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第42案資訊服務費凍結35%委員徐曉新等提案第43案物品凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":2554.454,"end":2565.907,"text":"第44案至第52案系第5目一般行政辦理統計與資訊管理作業設備及投資之提案第44案凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第45案凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":2570.933,"end":2581.6,"text":"第46案 凍結十分之一委員黃仁等提案第47案 凍結兩百萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第48案 凍結一百萬元委員林益君等提案第49案 資訊軟硬體設備費凍結一百萬元委員陳永康等提案第50案"},{"start":2587.892,"end":2615.178,"text":"動結十分之一委員黃仁等提案,第51案動結一百萬元委員王定宇等提案,第52案動結一百萬元委員王定宇等提案,第53案至第55案系第5目,辦理榮林工程公司清理計劃之提案,第53案動結五十萬元委員林毅君等提案,第54案動結十萬元委員林毅君等提案,第55案對特種基金之補助動結五十萬元委員黃仁等提案,"},{"start":2617.591,"end":2632.979,"text":"第56案第6目凍結100萬元委員林彥均等提案第57至第58案系第6目對榮民及特定醫療體系之補助之提案第57案凍結200萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第58案凍結200萬元"},{"start":2634.963,"end":2651.782,"text":"委員陳冠廷等人提案第59次第60案系第6目對榮民及特定醫療體系之補助對特種基金之補助之提案第59案檢列100萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等人提案第60案凍結1000萬元委員沈伯陽之提案"},{"start":2652.642,"end":2659.405,"text":"第61案第6目長期照顧與身心障礙醫療復健服務凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第62案第6目獎補助費公費救養及醫療補助凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":2667.788,"end":2680.879,"text":"第63案第6目各級榮民醫院營運督導管理檢驗100萬元委員林竹英等提案第64案自第66案系第6目醫事人力培訓與專業教育訓練之提案第64案凍結200萬元"},{"start":2683.081,"end":2701.378,"text":"委員馬文君等提案第65案凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第66案凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第67至第69案系第6目醫事人力培訓與專業教育訓練獎補助費之提案第67案凍結500萬元委員黃仁等提案第68案凍結100萬元委員陳永康等提案第69案凍結15%委員陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":2709.537,"end":2724.943,"text":"第70至71案系第6目高齡醫學發展與照護之提案第70案凍結600萬元委員馬文君等提案第71案凍結200萬元委員王定宇等提案第72案第6目安寧緩和醫療照護與推廣凍結500萬元委員林儲英等提案第73案第6目偏鄉公費醫師留任獎勵計劃凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":2735.467,"end":2751.983,"text":"第74至75案系第7目制預算提案第74案凍結100萬元委員羅美玲等提案第75案凍結100萬元委員羅美玲等提案第76至83案系第7目基本行政工作維持其他業務租金之提案"},{"start":2752.944,"end":2765.947,"text":"第76案 簡列100萬元 凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案第77案 簡列7000萬元 凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案第78案 凍結1000萬元委員黃仁等提案第79案 凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第80案 凍結100萬元委員陳冠廷等提案 第81案 凍結50萬元委員林益君等提案 第82案"},{"start":2779.568,"end":2801.756,"text":"國內旅費凍結15%委員陳冠廷等提案第83案大陸地區旅費凍結5萬元委員林竺英等提案第84案第7目基本行政工作維持設備及投資檢列300萬元凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案第85案第9目退除役官兵職業訓練中心防射整建工程檢列100萬元凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":2804.178,"end":2811.488,"text":"第86至91案系第9目安養機構防射及生活設施整建工程之提案第86案"},{"start":2812.822,"end":2833.873,"text":"典禮﹖三百萬元﹖凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案﹖第87案﹖凍結百分之三十委員徐小新等提案﹖第88案﹖凍結百分之十委員陳冠廷等提案﹖第89案﹖凍結三百萬元委員陳永康等提案﹖第90案﹖凍結一百萬元委員林益君等提案﹖第91案﹖凍結十分之一委員黃仁等提案﹖"},{"start":2834.485,"end":2855.915,"text":"第92至94針對第九目提升失智照顧量能長照萬我園區中程計劃之提案第92案凍結35%委員徐曉新等人之提案第93案凍結6000萬元委員馬文君等人提案第94案凍結15%委員陳冠廷等人提案"},{"start":2856.721,"end":2869.916,"text":"第95至96第9目提升施治照顧量能長照望委員區中整計劃防護建築及設備之提案第95案凍結200萬元委員林一軍等提案第96案凍結200萬元委員黃仁等提案"},{"start":2874.977,"end":2884.245,"text":"第97案第9目會本部防射整建工程凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案第98案第9目服務機構車輛太過凍結143萬元委員馬文君等提案第99案第9目防"},{"start":2892.677,"end":2901.482,"text":"服務機構車輛汰換運輸設備費減列20萬元委員黃仁等提案第100至第101案專對第9目安養機構車輛汰購之提案第100案凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案第101案凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第102案第11目退除役官兵退休給付凍結1000萬元委員林益君等提案第103案至第124案委主決議"},{"start":2923.883,"end":2945.162,"text":"現在宣讀主決議之內容第103案交通部觀光署在104年1月22日修正發展觀光條例要求經營旅館業者應與114年1月21日前半坨公司或商業登記並向地方主管機關登記申請旅館業務登記使得繼續營業國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會所屬平地農場仍有"},{"start":2950.748,"end":2967.212,"text":"原有東河農莊受封會館尚未委外經營或是轉型規劃,現其屆滿後將無法繼續經營。原建請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會 向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告。提案人委員 等人104.臺灣即將於2025年進入超高齡社會"},{"start":2974.369,"end":3002.485,"text":"根據113年6月份國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會公布之﹐榮民整體狀況資料顯示﹐我國榮民約有近五成之高齡比例﹐為避免高齡榮民與醫療中被客體化﹐致尊嚴降低﹐致主消極﹐及權利休眠﹐原建請國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會於3個月內﹐向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告﹐提案人委員林楚英等人第105案"},{"start":3003.846,"end":3023.804,"text":"根據退除役官兵輔導委員會提供之數據顯示目前仍有145位符合退輔會救養條件的榮譽國民長期旅居中國退輔會仍需執行仿事與身份查驗之工作建議國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會研議以科技手段"},{"start":3026.144,"end":3036.138,"text":"取代派員附中執行相關任務為避免將我國公職人員致與人身安全的風險之中提案人委員盧美林等人第106案"},{"start":3038.004,"end":3064.976,"text":"建議現今兩岸關係緊張中國近年修訂《國安法》與相關規定加大對外來人員的限制陸委會也與今年年中將中國大陸旅遊警示調山圍城設在此背景下派員附中執行查核任務不僅可能面臨中國官方之刁難甚至存在被軍禁之風險建議退府會比照現行確認存續的線上指紋查驗系統演繹可行方案"},{"start":3065.876,"end":3071.787,"text":"避免公務員被迫赴中國執行任務而面臨人身自由風險提案人委員盧美林等人"},{"start":3073.291,"end":3094.28,"text":"第107案（國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會（透過辦理各類就業媒合活動（並與國內企業聯繫（開拓多元職缺（讓退伍軍人有更多的選擇（近年臺積電決定在臺南擴大投資（除整個半導體產業鏈在南科的群聚（並帶動周邊物流（生活服務業務投資進駐臺南"},{"start":3096.901,"end":3100.948,"text":"以增加在地就業機會原件請國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會說明配合南科地區產業需求之就業輔導作為並於2個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案委員王定宇等人"},{"start":3112.062,"end":3138.522,"text":"第108案根據退輔委近5年編列規劃赴中國訪視長居中國救養榮民相關資料顯示2020年至2024年相關預算皆無法執行而繳酷建請退輔委研議無法赴中訪視長居中國救養榮民之相關配套措施及關懷驗證方式並於兩個月內向立法院為交集國防委員會提出書面報告提案的委員王定宇等人第109案"},{"start":3140.163,"end":3166.77,"text":"退府會與新章天然氣公司之持股率為34.08%,然而安置率僅有18.09%照顧退伍軍人之就業安置為退府會之職者,建請退府會積極研商如何改善新章天然氣公司之安置率並於兩個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出相關改善措施之書面報告提案人委王定宇等人第110案"},{"start":3169.579,"end":3188.056,"text":"2025年度退府會國際退伍軍人事務交流經費編列1113萬元請退府會說明2025年度國際退伍軍人事務交流之展望及具體作為並於兩個月內提出向立法院外交及國防委員會提出相關書面報告提案人委員王定宇等人"},{"start":3189.281,"end":3213.206,"text":"第111案（國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會持股20%以上之轉投資事業（多達23家該等轉投資事業除透過投資收益役助安置基金外（另一重要功能即為提供退輔會就業機會（退輔會予以藉由該等公司派有會見董事長或總經理等高階主管對事業經營決策及人力運用有較高之影響力"},{"start":3214.466,"end":3228.762,"text":"必力持續拓展退出役官兵之就業機會提案委員王定宜等人第112案國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會114年度預算案容免安養及養護基本行政工作維持容免醫療照護高齡醫學發展與照護"},{"start":3232.47,"end":3250.657,"text":"編列相關經費一千五百零一萬兩千元（嚴禁警國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會應就所屬榮民（榮院加導入智慧照護科技輔具所設之支安防護規範與3個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員沈伯陽等人"},{"start":3251.517,"end":3275.476,"text":"第113案（為防渡中共不時透過各項宣傳搶奪話語權（並利用我退出役官兵附中（藉機防害我國家之尊嚴（原件請國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會（得藉由各項活動之規劃（強化與退出役官兵之連結（以彰顯我國家之主權提案人委員沈伯陽等人第114案（為協助官兵順利轉嫌民間職場（"},{"start":3280.529,"end":3294.289,"text":"而在事性輔導．促進順利就業方面．國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會．亦有舉辦職癌探索營等服務．協助年輕職癌發展與從業方向．為現行職癌探索營每年僅舉辦15場次"},{"start":3297.055,"end":3312.072,"text":"處級人數役僅450人（原件請國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會（因舊執矮探索營資場次爭辦研議相關規劃（並於3個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告（提案人委員沈博洋等人"},{"start":3313.001,"end":3328.45,"text":"第115案（鑒於戰爭發生的不確定性（輔導會各級容院人力及床位已納入（陣動員準備計劃（目前各級容院（戰傷醫療料能（醫事人力即16546人（床位即15343床（請輔導會持續強化加護便房手術台等（"},{"start":3340.069,"end":3346.67,"text":"及重症醫療設備以強化戰傷醫療積極備戰與協力應變提案人委員陳永康等人。第116案（退輔會辦理（退除役官兵職業訓練計劃檢視110至112年（退輔會執訓中心致辦或委外執訓人員參訓後就業力介於"},{"start":3364.195,"end":3370.138,"text":"百分之82.6至88.23%（委辦訓練之就業率僅達67.62%至76.10%（另外參訓人員接訓後取得專業證照比例未達五成（擁有提升之空間（建議退輔委應籌師如何精進退除役官兵之就業輔導（"},{"start":3385.314,"end":3409.922,"text":"創造退除役官兵順利就業社會安定進步及政府支援有效運用之山穎成國提案人委員陳冠廷等人第117案建議退府會應積極規劃嘉義農場未來新定位與縣府互為夥伴共同推動地方觀光產業發展並增加嘉義農場之收益提案人委員陳冠廷等人第118案"},{"start":3412.594,"end":3427.869,"text":"退府會年度工作計劃與退除役官兵服務救助與照顧主要招募社區志願服務人員及榮薪志工提供榮民券及第二類退除役官兵各項照顧服務。114年度編列獎補助費1億3358萬9千元但志工服務並無固定規範,包含職務內容時數及考核機制等"},{"start":3437.538,"end":3459.293,"text":"建議退輔委因醜失制定本預算用途及致用方式提案人委員陳冠廷等人第119案114年度國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會與預算案與退出役官兵服務就助於照顧榮民安養及養護分別編列預算用於訪查大陸地區高額遺產繼承人及訪查長居大陸救養榮民及辦理指紋驗證為輔導會以連續數年為實際派員前往大陸進行關懷與訪查"},{"start":3467.578,"end":3481.812,"text":"原請退輔會因舊未派員復入之原因及114年度若未能派員訪查之替代方案與2個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員黃仁等人第120案"},{"start":3484.094,"end":3499.396,"text":"輔導會依法辦理退除役官兵退休給付業務,為輔導會111及112年度退除役官兵退休給付人事費軍教員援編預算操資援引動資第一預備金,為兼顧軍職人員退休金權益,"},{"start":3501.584,"end":3529.146,"text":"與軍職人員退輔基金財務永續性與與何時編列依法律義務支出之預算提案人委員黃仁等人第121案建議近年退除役特考時有錄取不足情形以112年退除役特考三等考試為例一般行政社會行政勞工行政社會工作及衛生行政等類科錄取人數皆未達需用人數原建議執訊中心與辦理借退"},{"start":3529.867,"end":3532.776,"text":"官兵救養．就業輔導時．可積極宣導．鼓勵報考提案委員黃仁等人第122案"},{"start":3538.14,"end":3566.351,"text":"退輔會執訓中心多年乃為委辦班次接訓員自辦班次輔導會應探究原因（原請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會就相關原因及提升績效辦法與2個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告體驗人委員黃仁等人第123案後疫情時代來臨受疫後免疫負債影響民眾就醫頻率增加加之醫療自費市場發展"},{"start":3569.876,"end":3589.933,"text":"導致內外婦兒急診等住院醫師招募不順。（輔導會所屬榮運為國內醫療龍頭應提早規劃相關醫師人力禁用（以確保榮運維持高品質醫療服務提案委員黃仁等人。（第124案退輔會所屬福壽山清淨及武林等三高農場"},{"start":3591.844,"end":3609.082,"text":"員工缺額率始終居高不下（最嚴重者如福壽山農場（缺額率近三成（退府未應妥適對策（積極拓（擴大人員招募及提升待遇或其他服務又應（以充實人力提案人委員黃仁等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":3619.338,"end":3629.469,"text":"現在開始處理提案開始之前我先做幾個宣告國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會預算審查以一級科目作為併案依據"},{"start":3630.902,"end":3650.828,"text":"如已經與提案委員說明達成共識請直接報告溝通結果或動算數委員如有其他的提問再加說明提案委員如果不在場者不予處理但共同提案人或受提案委員委託的委員可以代為說明提問"},{"start":3652.128,"end":3655.311,"text":"我們開始審查先就稅入部分第一案請退輔會說明"},{"start":3681.076,"end":3705.612,"text":"就第一案的部分因為我們在年度的這個收入的部分我們好像是降低因為之前都可以每年大概平均都可以達到500萬以上可是現在我們編列的預算剩下484萬6千元是降低的所以就這個部分算有來說明不過我們現在可能也要"},{"start":3707.414,"end":3716.116,"text":"請我們相關單位其實要去做一些就是改就是修正因為像現在我們看到很多的商店其實他不斷不斷的在創新就是他會用很多新式的東西去吸引別人那我們的員工福利社好像長期以來大概賣的大概都是那些東西然後擺設也差不多那也可能不是那些住民或者是"},{"start":3735.6,"end":3736.1,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":3765.7,"end":3766.221,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":3781.98,"end":3800.795,"text":"那是不是有一些可以做的可能可以強化比如說假日的時候可能不太有員工或什麼的去停那是不是可以適度的去做一些裁員的開發那就這個部分我們還是同意就是增加這個增加多少?增加100萬建議好謝謝委員長我們後面尊委也拜你謝謝"},{"start":3808.936,"end":3812.678,"text":"好那第一案我們就由馬文君委員提案然後增列100萬那第二第三第四案"},{"start":3819.588,"end":3819.608,"text":"請說明"},{"start":3850.17,"end":3850.39,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3871.766,"end":3891.906,"text":"臨船醫事失智的培育有助於提升醫療品質但是退補會乃為說明明年培育失智的疫情的減少112人的原因所以請退補會現場說明清楚原因及各院院的為何減少來現場說明就好了"},{"start":3900.732,"end":3928.06,"text":"報告委員北榮目前是沒有降低訓練的人數當然是因為少者化的關係有些重症的科別很多人不願意投入這是我們積極在努力提高薪資希望能留出好的人才來照顧我們的國人這個一定會全力努力但是人就越來越少年輕人的觀念也改變這是我們最大面臨整個國家全世界共同面臨的問題"},{"start":3930.103,"end":3933.224,"text":"所以本席建議可併動200以上謝謝委員那我們第二第三第四案就併案然後我們以第二案陳冠廷委員當提案人然後凍結200萬然後提出書面報告並經同意後使得凍資然後退伍會會回覆書面報告內容請包括併案委員所追尋的部分"},{"start":3960.967,"end":3963.108,"text":"接下來我們第5案請說明來同意改組決議"},{"start":3986.892,"end":4003.483,"text":"主席我講一下吳立華委員這個我有連署我提一個建議其實有一些退伍的官兵其實有跟我們辦公室這邊反映就是說他們退伍之後其實有打算自己創業然後在創業其實有很多的關鍵技術像是企業的財會財會的稅務數位行銷"},{"start":4008.826,"end":4010.827,"text":"謝謝委員指導我們在執行中心有加入相關的一個創業智能的課程謝謝"},{"start":4037.674,"end":4061.283,"text":"好那第5案的話就王定宇委員然後改組決議然後第6第7案請說明第6第7案系第2幕退除役官兵救學執訓動搖退除役官兵救學輔導措施業務費提案委員分別為王定宇召委以及黃仁委員都已經到委員辦公室說明及提供資料那第7案或委員同意改組決議的辦理第8第6案懇請委員同意改組決議辦理"},{"start":4066.375,"end":4082.172,"text":"主席這個案其實是鼓勵因為所謂學用合一你們開辦到目前為止校系所其實數量增加非常快那就像剛才羅美玲委員講的我們期待就是兩件事情"},{"start":4082.853,"end":4108.635,"text":"一個是擴大跟不同的學校不要侷限這些學校你們現在量不錯了但是因為我們的退伍袍則都分布在各縣市所以你擴大它的那個接觸的面也會加大課程因為退伍會本身不會開課程但是你們可以協調學校的課程提供給我們的退伍袍則課我要選ESG的課什麼課什麼課這是一個第二個是追蹤"},{"start":4109.736,"end":4133.349,"text":"他畢業以後創業成功率多少?就業滿一年以上多少?這個麻煩你們持續追蹤那我的案我同意跟黃總委員並起來做主決議謝謝趙偉主要是改成主決議的一個目的是要提醒這個受少子化的影響很多學校都出現招生困難的狀況"},{"start":4134.85,"end":4153.338,"text":"所以退不回未來也可以不用局限於在科大盡可能增加學校的科系那讓退退除役官兵有更多的選擇那所以在預算會增加那所以改成主決議好以上謝謝委員好那我們第6案就第6第6 7案是併案然後改成主決議"},{"start":4174.858,"end":4189.346,"text":"第8、第9案第8、第9案系第二幕退出役官兵救學執訓動量退出役官兵職業技術訓練提案委員分別為"},{"start":4191.397,"end":4201.612,"text":"李懿君召委以及羅美玲委員我們都已經到委員辦公室說明並且提供資料第9案已經獲召委來同意改組決議辦理那第8案懇請委員同意預算照列OK這個案我測案"},{"start":4206.9,"end":4213.344,"text":"好這第8案我撤案好這主席就把它撤案了OK好謝謝謝謝委員好那我說明一下齁這個預算我是同意照列啦但是希望齁退輔會齁能針對花東地區還有離島地區的退除役官兵的執訓應該要更加的重視畢竟他們是處於比較偏遠的地方可以參加執訓的學習的機會還有課程齁就是比大都會其實資源還是來的比較少"},{"start":4233.215,"end":4241.54,"text":"所以加上也是交通不方便會造成學習上面的障礙重重譬如我們花東的退除役官兵其實想要上課參加執訓都是要翻山越嶺到高雄才可以上課所以因為像今年花蓮遇到0403的地震就造成很多上課的權益的損失所以菅義退委會是不是也是可以找國防部"},{"start":4255.189,"end":4255.389,"text":"謝謝召委指導,我們會遵照辦理"},{"start":4281.601,"end":4292.988,"text":"接下來我們第10到13案請說明第10到第13案並案系第二幕退出役官兵就學執訓動量退出役官兵職業技術訓練向下業務費提案的委員分別為王定宇昭偉黃仁委員馬文君委員都已經到委員辦公室說明並且提供資料懇請合併凍結150萬提書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":4315.108,"end":4331.102,"text":"產訓合作專班我們過去這十幾年來我們看的從早期就是駕駛然後我們希望跟著時代進步提供給我們退伍跑者不同的專長訓練我們按照年度來分別確實也有成長我是建議退輔會"},{"start":4332.625,"end":4348.173,"text":"要增加一下一方面協助我們的袍澤就業一方面也要協助我們社會某一些行業這個缺員的狀況比如說我們現在護理人員護理人員缺了大概兩萬五千人"},{"start":4349.033,"end":4375.926,"text":"那我知道衛福部有提出一個就是說我正式護理不管是大護就大學護理系畢業的或者是護專畢業的他去考護理師執照那有的考不到的或者我有EMTJ就是高階這個救護專長的他可以先禁用為類似護佐這個職務這個衛福部有在推那他的薪水當然工作辛苦但薪水也還不錯所以我是我提這個案是希望說我們後續應該"},{"start":4378.568,"end":4393.426,"text":"參訊的規模跟需求那特別是我們社會上所需要的人才那大家喜歡去光電業者喜歡去AI業者那醫療護理長照等等這些需要的人力其實相當龐大那我退伍之後"},{"start":4393.846,"end":4422.936,"text":"我的專長可能是砲科可能是步兵跟社會未必能夠完整行街所以從退伍前的訓練到退伍後退輔會的訓練到社會的需求端甚至到建構全民韌性防衛力量因為有很多人具備這樣護理人才的話對於重大的不管是天災或相關的威脅他也是建構一個力量所以我這邊我贊成病案凍結150萬但是我希望就是我看到一個報告寫清楚就是針對需求端"},{"start":4423.636,"end":4423.776,"text":"黃人緯委員"},{"start":4446.701,"end":4469.494,"text":"本席有提到的是第10案、第11案兩案同科子木所以可一起處理兵動150萬那退不會在執行成效一直是不差的但是有不少受完信之後發現在就業的市場不服期待、期望"},{"start":4470.615,"end":4484.515,"text":"或是在執行之後才發現所協對就業的注意不大那請退部會說明如何在信前讓參加執行的人員先了解就業市場的狀況"},{"start":4487.472,"end":4495.636,"text":"謝謝委員指導我們在這個訓前其實我們都會做一個需求調查以及他期望做一個適性評量然後我們會針對他的一個需求建議他去參加相關的一個訓練班隊然後將來這個訓後能夠訓用合一來輔導他就業所以本席提的第10案第11案同一個指目的就是病案150萬謝謝委員"},{"start":4513.465,"end":4514.046,"text":"馬文君委員馬文君委員"},{"start":4529.103,"end":4535.626,"text":"所以也算是非常高那可是我看那個內容有一些其實還是不錯就是說那如果可以學習的話像消防工程繪圖啦互動式的網頁視覺設計等等像列印這個可能也都算是比較像現在其實還蠻流行的可是都沒有人去就是報名的人數還不足以開班"},{"start":4553.372,"end":4559.675,"text":"他的問題可能首先要先找出來還有另外就是其實大家去上課因為這個課程也辦了很長的時間那除了剛剛說是不是符合我們社會的就業需求那現在有很多的企業或者相關的一些可能工作其實都說找不到人一直缺人力可是又為什麼大家像這樣也不是非常出眾的工作"},{"start":4581.805,"end":4595.433,"text":"為什麼大家還是沒有意願去學習我想這個可能要先找出他的問題點那後續可能才有辦法再去做調整或改變那另外還有有些班我看他的那個開課的期程很短"},{"start":4597.754,"end":4601.296,"text":"因為榮敏大概一生只有4次的機會可以選擇課程那你如果是很短那他又不知道說看題目的名稱好像還不錯可是他也不知道實際的內容那也不知道說未來在就業上面是不是可以有幫助所以你用只有一個多月的時間他就耗費一次的機會所以我想這個可能都是可以去檢討看看"},{"start":4625.011,"end":4627.079,"text":"在說明的時候再給我們一些補充的資料謝謝委員指導"},{"start":4632.299,"end":4657.064,"text":"還有沒有其他委員好那我們這第10案到第13案我們就並案處理然後我們以王定宇委員第13案為主案凍結150萬然後提出書面報告並經同意使得凍資退伍會回復的書面報告內容請包括並案委員所追尋的部分接下來我們第14案"},{"start":4660.797,"end":4673.257,"text":"第14案（昔第3幕（榮民健保醫療部分負擔（動3（榮民健保醫療部分負擔（提案委員為陳冠廷委員（以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料（懇請凍結500萬元（提書面報告後時的動之"},{"start":4678.545,"end":4697.525,"text":"主席我簡單回覆就是後來我看到後面的數據是看起來是使用的這個支出的部分跟前一年比較起來是差不多一樣但是如果是差不多一樣的話你們還多編4千多萬支出確實是不太合理啦所以說我們是要求說來去檢討一下所以同意改動500萬是謝謝委員指導謝謝"},{"start":4703.747,"end":4706.03,"text":"我們第14案就由陳冠廷委員凍結500萬提出順便報告並經同意使得凍資接下來第15案"},{"start":4720.141,"end":4736.714,"text":"各位委員好我是服務照顧處處長曹東發第15案系第4幕退出役官兵服務救助與照顧01基本行政工作維持提案委員為林毅君召委以致召委辦公室說明及提供資料配合召委提案凍結20萬提書面報告號使得凍資"},{"start":4742.473,"end":4745.695,"text":"第15案就由我提案動結20萬提書面報告使之解凍16到21案請說明"},{"start":4767.386,"end":4795.407,"text":"第16至21案（第4幕（退除役官兵（服務與救助與照顧（領域基本行政工作（維持向下業務費第16、17及第20案（提案委員分別為馬文君委員（黃仁委員均與自委員辦公室說明及提供資料可請合併凍結50萬提書面報告後（使得凍資第18案（提案委員為馬文君委員或委員同意預算照列"},{"start":4796.499,"end":4807.652,"text":"第19及21案提案委員（黃仁委員（均已致委員辦公室說明及提供資料（懇請委員（不檢列預算（同意合併凍結10萬提書面報告後使得凍資黃仁委員"},{"start":4817.412,"end":4834.358,"text":"針對第17案的這個部分來講（退不會租車和電動車（電池各增加了24萬那總計較今年增加了48萬說明中提到高雄和苗栗兩處農民聚集地交通不便"},{"start":4835.078,"end":4836.88,"text":"苗栗和高雄持續提供醫療專車"},{"start":4857.874,"end":4874.105,"text":"至於新增的租車的費用是我們辦19所容服處辦理大型的活動例如榮民懇談會或是移孤認養的這些相關活動我們補助給各容服處來辦理這個大型"},{"start":4877.233,"end":4893.07,"text":"車輛租金以上向委員報告肯定委員能夠支持我可以併動50萬謝謝委員那另外第19211921就是本席所提到的第21案兩案同科子牧"},{"start":4896.513,"end":4923.546,"text":"可一起處理兩岸可並動10萬但不與其他案並案處理主要是因為提醒退不會在微型保險可以為農民提供基礎的保障但目前納保人數是太少了112年統計只有6000多人退不會要了解農民接受度不高的原因是什麼以上所以兩岸可並動10萬以上"},{"start":4925.247,"end":4926.268,"text":"16案和20案,16案大概是針對我們百歲的榮民,他辦理慶生會的部分,那特別來說明的時候,因為大概經費增加的部分主要是因為大概百歲人類都喜歡收到那個"},{"start":4947.088,"end":4949.369,"text":"本來我們覺得說這樣子可能好像太...不過他們可能還是比較喜歡這個金質這個部分"},{"start":4963.835,"end":4964.075,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":4983.763,"end":4983.843,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5005.179,"end":5007.781,"text":"這當然當時也是利益良善就是說萬一在可能碰到一些緊急狀況的時候可以有一些補貼或者一些在緊急的運儲可是因為我們這個又是對於弱勢的族群"},{"start":5027.458,"end":5027.578,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5052.262,"end":5052.282,"text":"謝委員"},{"start":5068.169,"end":5080.256,"text":"那我先說一下整個就是我們16、17、20案並案處理然後我們以馬文君委員的第20案為主案然後凍結50萬提出書面報告並經同意使得凍支然後第19、21案並案處理由黃仁委員的第21案"},{"start":5097.105,"end":5099.806,"text":"委主案然後凍結10萬提出書面報告並經同意使得凍資那馬文君委員你18案那18案就我們預算照列好接下來我們22案"},{"start":5121.294,"end":5135.164,"text":"第22案系第4目（退除役官兵（服務救助與照顧（③志工服務照顧榮民作業提案委員為馬文君委員以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料可請委員同意凍結100萬提書面報告後經同意使得凍資"},{"start":5144.158,"end":5146.28,"text":"這個部分因為我們看總輔處其實在每一個縣市他服務的人數對象其實是不一樣有的像台北市、新北市這些其實是非常高可是有些服務的對象比較少不過當然有一些服務員很大"},{"start":5161.132,"end":5180.967,"text":"所以還是希望說在這個服務的人力配置上面還是再去做一些更適當的一個調整有些人負擔太重那可能就會流於形勢所以這個部分我們還是希望可以再去考量一下同意"},{"start":5187.964,"end":5190.668,"text":"22案同意跟黃仁委員嗎22案和23案黃仁委員要併案嗎可以嗎凱東協100萬"},{"start":5197.162,"end":5197.522,"text":"凍結100萬提出書面報告並經同意使得凍資"},{"start":5216.375,"end":5236.812,"text":"主席這邊我再說明一下這一案最主要的問題是人力資源的分配那退不回應該不只是單純徵聘社區服務組長和勞工勞心志工要怎麼樣把人力資源發揮效益才是輔導會要加強的部分"},{"start":5241.218,"end":5262.963,"text":"第24案吸引第4幕（退除役官兵服務救助與照顧（臨時（榮民榮券、移券及難救助及慰問向下獎補租費（提案委員分別為馬文君委員以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料（配合委員提案凍結20萬提書面報告均同意後使得凍資"},{"start":5266.018,"end":5270.619,"text":"這個部分大概是針對因為我們看到遠距照顧的這個部分好像經費有增加有來做過說明因為之前像我們單身農民大概都比較容易有時候年紀大或者自己一個人跌倒或者什麼可能比較不容易發現那用這個遠距照顧的這些像一些工具設備主要就是希望可以及時的可以去發現"},{"start":5292.484,"end":5292.664,"text":"同意凍結"},{"start":5314.195,"end":5340.031,"text":"那24案我們就以馬文君委員為凍結20萬提出書面報告並經同意才使得凍資那25案第25案系第4幕退出役官兵服務救助與照顧06榮民及榮眷生活輔導宣慰及座談向下業務費提案委員為馬文君委員以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料配合委員提案凍結50萬提書面報告經同意後使得凍資"},{"start":5344.707,"end":5346.829,"text":"因為我們看到這個資料的內容從109年110年到現在113年我們看到這個新住民配偶參加執訓的這個部分好像逐年在遞減尤其到今年8月底"},{"start":5368.209,"end":5368.249,"text":"是 謝委員"},{"start":5396.26,"end":5398.622,"text":"馬文君委員提案動結50萬同樣提書面報告並同意才使得動之"},{"start":5413.884,"end":5426.371,"text":"26案27案好第2627案系第4幕退出役官兵服務救助與照顧淋漆單身亡故農民善後商帳及遺產管理作業向下業務費"},{"start":5428.717,"end":5451.564,"text":"第26案提案委員為馬文君委員（以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料（配合委員提案凍結20萬提案（以書面報告經同意後使得凍資第27案提案委員為林儲英委員（以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料（配合委員提案凍結3萬元提書面報告使得凍資"},{"start":5453.71,"end":5454.131,"text":"林楚瑜委員"},{"start":5473.389,"end":5473.549,"text":"是 謝委員"},{"start":5496.291,"end":5496.351,"text":"毛孟靜委員"},{"start":5516.858,"end":5527.561,"text":"中國大陸去探視或者去了解或者甚至去判斷說到底他是不是符合資格那你現在如果不能去的情況因為之前在這個這個辦理的過程大概沒有什麼樣的一個風險或者也沒有什麼困難除了碰到疫情以外那現在如果是有這樣的考量應該要用什麼樣的方式因為我們凍結不是要主要是要知道應該怎麼做"},{"start":5546.147,"end":5550.049,"text":"因為你現在顯然你的做法是想要會有所調整所以這個部分應該怎麼做然後又不會影響到我們退休的榮民他們的權益或者包括這個在所有全世界在法律範圍裡面規範的他們有權益的部分不要去受到影響我想要提出一個具體的辦法雖然我們凍結數不多可是我們希望把那個解決的方法要寫出來"},{"start":5575.201,"end":5598.486,"text":"是 謝委員我們遵照辦理好 王定宇 張偉我對預算沒有意見但是這個我只學很多次了就是說我們在所有的退休撫訊像德國對他們的退休人員美國對他們的退休人員核實那個verify是很重要的這是一方面防止弊端二方面是關心我們自己連脈的退休人員"},{"start":5599.546,"end":5613.657,"text":"現在牽涉到有一定數量常駐在中國那邊而中國最近通過的法令對於具備國家意向的權利行使動輒以重罪處罰我們退伏會是我們國家機關我們人員去那邊訪視探視"},{"start":5620.494,"end":5637.61,"text":"發生事情的風險不是算百分比的是不能有這樣的風險的所以對於這種訪視確認關懷特別是有這樣子的風險的國家我是建議退府會可能要組個專案去研究一下"},{"start":5638.17,"end":5638.47,"text":"處理後續事件"},{"start":5664.47,"end":5664.791,"text":"指秀委員"},{"start":5676.874,"end":5681.835,"text":"馬文鈞委員提案動結20萬提書面報告並經同意時得動資退伍會回覆書面報告內容請包括委員所追詢的部分林楚瑩委員動結3萬提出書面報告並經同意時得動資"},{"start":5714.832,"end":5729.496,"text":"第28至29病案,系第4幕（退除役官兵服務救助與照顧（08海內外退伍軍人聯繫作業提案委員分別為馬文君委員及林冠廷委員（軍旅制委員（陳冠廷委員"},{"start":5733.277,"end":5742.423,"text":"陳冠廷委員．以致委員辦公室提出說明及提供資料．勳請委員．不檢列預算．合併凍結50萬提書面報告．經同意後使得動之"},{"start":5750.529,"end":5752.729,"text":"28案就這個部分因為我們看到這個主要是海內外退伍軍人聯繫作業的這個相關經費可是我們看到他支用的部分有印度台北協會澳洲駐台辦事處雖然這個有做過說明說他們可能對我們的退伍制度是很有興趣覺得可以學習可是我們還是希望"},{"start":5778.355,"end":5780.937,"text":"預算的支用還是應該要恰當他雖然覺得我們這個很好可是用在這裡也好因為如果我們覺得別人很好我們去請教然後花這一筆預算我覺得還是比較合理那如果是別人覺得他們來"},{"start":5797.19,"end":5824.799,"text":"學習或者做這樣的交流是不是適當我覺得可能未來在預算上面還是可能要考量一下是 謝委員我們會遵照規定來辦理那原則上就是接待的這個費用大家可能還是想一下因為其實原則上包含我們辦公室接待一些外賓老實說是不會花這麼大的費用所以如果能夠尊潔的部分就尊潔這樣是 謝委員知道"},{"start":5828.166,"end":5829.71,"text":"30案要併案嗎?要一起併案嗎?因為是同樣的。"},{"start":5836.434,"end":5843.2,"text":"那我們28到30我們就並案處理然後我們還是以陳冠廷委員29案為主案凍結50萬提出書面報告並經同意使得凍支然後接下來我們31到34案"},{"start":5858.803,"end":5885.435,"text":"第31案（第4幕（退除役官兵服務照顧與救助09（國軍單身退員宿舍服務與管理提案委員為陳冠廷委員與自委員辦公室說明及提供資料可請委員同意凍結100萬提書面報告後（使得凍資第32至34案（第4幕（退除役官兵服務救助與照顧09（"},{"start":5889.097,"end":5904.307,"text":"國軍單身退員宿舍服務與管理提案委員分別為徐曉新委員﹑黃仁委員及林儲英等委員均以至委員辦公室說明或提供書面資料懇請委員同意合併第31案凍結100萬提書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":5912.076,"end":5930.049,"text":"在這個議題上面我個人踩的比較強硬因為像我在我自己的選區還有無薪宿、退社、大我新社、大我山莊、大我新莊等單身退員宿舍上述的宿舍因為歷史的原因有不少的疑倦因為侵佔的爭議跟國防部纏送當中"},{"start":5932.671,"end":5959.299,"text":"那但是這一筆雖然他這個地不是退輔會的那但是呢這個國軍的單身退社的宿舍服務跟管理費用過去沒有被合理的使用那他的狀況是這樣子我相信各位退輔會的同仁都非常清楚過去因為沒有妥善的管理那使得呢這一些退降的就他們結了婚之後呢他們的這個因為他應該是單身退社"},{"start":5961.88,"end":5979.81,"text":"但是呢他們結了婚之後他們的家人跟孩子也住在那裡那當時過去這是一個歷史工業過去沒有激情性的管理導致他們都住在那裡那住久了之後現在他們年紀也大了那他們的這個先生也去世之後他們住在那裡現在被排站"},{"start":5980.43,"end":6001.932,"text":"那人數很多所以呢就引起了其實有很大的爭議是不願意走然後被提告然後呢就我們在這整體的這個像包含是五星推設到我新設到我山莊到我新莊等等地方那就遭受到蠻大的就我們選區上面的民眾的衝擊而且很多的這一些遺裝他們是弱勢"},{"start":6004.194,"end":6013.099,"text":"對所以我希望的地方是說我之前都是跟就是這個軍備局因為那是軍備局的地那我們來談這個事情但是我覺得我覺得他們都是退將的遺孀退將的子女那我覺得退輔會也應該要加入一起去協助"},{"start":6026.747,"end":6031.851,"text":"哪怕是跟他們溝通請他們離開我在這裡並沒有想要去要求國防部去做違法的事情說那讓他們不要走我是希望他們可以依照法律離開但是這中間的溝通那我們去溝通其實我說真的難度很高那你們是退府會跟他們的過去他們的這些夫妻這個夫妻之間然後很多"},{"start":6053.067,"end":6074.716,"text":"有這個退伍軍人啦退伍軍人對不起退伍軍人那他們有很多的這個情感的交流那你們在這個退輔會吼那就應該我覺得要跟他們去做良好的溝通那鼓勵他們說看有什麼方式跟軍備局等等喔那一起去請他們就是在"},{"start":6075.876,"end":6077.197,"text":"跟委員報告是好,那晚點稍微"},{"start":6105.537,"end":6118.791,"text":"第一我尊重各位人的意見不過我是建議說因為凍結30或20有時候影響運作這個我們可以再討論一下那有關單身退伍軍人的宿舍問題我們在第9屆的時候其實專案討論過那時候專案我還負責"},{"start":6122.114,"end":6138.548,"text":"他那個當年是蔣經國先生為了照顧未婚的單身軍人所以在各軍區用宿舍軍備局那時候也不叫軍備局就是用那樣子來安置他們所以他的前提一定是單身是民國60幾年的事情那"},{"start":6139.289,"end":6166.722,"text":"後來就隸屬各作戰區的政戰部門來負責管理後來產生什麼問題呢?我們那時候把它分樣態其實花了很多年的時間並沒有說一定不盡人情的他的遺孀、眷屬都清除第一類我們那時候還有發現住在裡面的單身退員根本毫無關係毫無關係還經營商開什麼理髮部洗衣店用的是免費的軍區的水電"},{"start":6168.72,"end":6194.875,"text":"那個水電費當時我們看到報表嚇了一大跳甚至於還有原來的中國籍配偶也跟那個單身退員無關把他在中國的配偶也接來然後整個這各地都有這種情形所以我們當時候好像分了四大類還是幾大類分別營商的先停止有侵佔還用的公家的水電免費的水電這個都優先處理所以我個人贊成的是人性化處理尊重歷史的因素"},{"start":6195.876,"end":6223.752,"text":"但是不容許完全百分之百毫無關係的違法營商因為那個不是本意那邊大概都是比較低階的過去的那些單身退員都是比較低階的倒是沒有將軍等級的啦那現在這個其實業館是屬於國防部並沒有到退輔會因為他們當時我們當面的時候還遇到那個很年長的老伯伯當士官長的大概就是那一種所以那個都沒有到退輔會來所以我是建議說我們可以要求退輔會去"},{"start":6225.553,"end":6225.593,"text":"（處理委員（"},{"start":6247.256,"end":6268.305,"text":"好 謝謝基本上這個案子我想其實是非常久遠的一個歷史共業那王定宇委員剛剛也做了說明那我提案的原因就是因為我們知道在113年度那麼增加了77萬但是如果根據目前我們看到單身宿舍從自治會的人數清潔工的人數甚至於聯絡人人數都是減少"},{"start":6270.506,"end":6283.334,"text":"的狀況底下那麼顯然就如同王帝委員所說的就在內部裡面的人他恐怕都不是在我們建制檔案裡面但是我們看到的是這個有關於牌站的訴訟費用其實是增加了161萬顯然也是有一些法律的問題我們退府會必須要持續後續來處理那麼到底狀況是什麼我們身為國防外交委員會的委員們其實都是非常關注的"},{"start":6297.162,"end":6304.052,"text":"如果沒有一個詳盡的包括現在目前宿舍所使用的所謂戰用情況以及排戰的進度那麼以及後續的規劃那麼這筆錢到底怎麼用我們就真的不好來監督所以說本席才會提出說凍結77萬"},{"start":6313.746,"end":6325.53,"text":"因為我相信所有的委員關心這個案子都是希望協助政府來做後續的處理而且是站在一種合理合法合規的情況底下所以本期才會提出凍結77萬那麼希望在一定的比例底下希望你們能做出一個報告提供我們參考跟了解"},{"start":6333.072,"end":6351.813,"text":"是,謝謝委員,我會提出報告因為本案增加了77萬但是真正影響到單身退員的宿舍居住的品質自治會長清潔工聯絡人人數反而減少所以請退不會說明減少原因及會不會影響到單身"},{"start":6352.494,"end":6353.034,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":6368.976,"end":6387.519,"text":"好那徐小青委員還是我們就是我這邊還是堅持吼那我150萬我可以接受那因為這個在我的因為吳欣現在大多數的吼我回應一下定雲委員因為你們剛剛講的這個部分都已經排除了吼第一階段的部分都已經排除完畢了"},{"start":6388.32,"end":6415.041,"text":"那在我的選區裡面的無薪退社到我新社到我山莊到我新莊裡面的那其實真的他們都不是所謂剛剛講的這種什麼佔用水電費啊或者是說他們來營商啊這類的那他們都是屬於遺孀能夠排除的我們都盡量請他移開了那我也跟國防部這邊做了很多的努力那過去沒有辦法把他們因為我交退輔會也有跟他們就是去做談嘛那但是移不走"},{"start":6415.461,"end":6432.552,"text":"那是過去是因為他們就是還沒有被告但現在他們都已經進到訴訟裡面了大我新社他甚至自己裝了電表自己付錢他們都是有做到這個程度所以他們並沒有去利用我們國家的經費去拿我們國家的錢去付自己的電所以我剛剛舉出的這四個新裝退社他們是這個情況"},{"start":6441.098,"end":6469.782,"text":"那過去沒有辦法離開的原因可能是因為他們就覺得還可以再撐一陣子但他們現在所有的人都是進到訴訟當中那他們就變成是說他們被告可能要賠錢那在這個時間點上面如果退府會能夠去多幫一點忙再幫他們安排去看有沒有地方可以住我覺得這是有機會的那我也不會只針對退府會因為我知道這些土地也是國防部這裡所以我在國防部那邊我也會提出同樣的要求"},{"start":6470.382,"end":6484.856,"text":"對但是因為這在我的選區裡面那很多的民眾來跟我陳情所以對我來說呢我可能會比其他的委員在這件事情上面我更需要站在比較強硬的角度所以呢我希望在這個部分大家可以尊重"},{"start":6485.697,"end":6487.679,"text":"在選區上希望回饋給民眾讓他們知道我們真的是很認真我也相信退輔會會盡力所以這也只是凍結而已凍結的話我希望金額能夠150萬大家能夠與同意謝謝"},{"start":6502.954,"end":6519.934,"text":"跟委員報告我們接受150萬的凍結謝謝委員的指導但是是不是能夠改成書面資料我們提供詳細的書面資料讓委員能夠了解我們的努力是經同意之後再書面資料經同意可以是謝謝委員"},{"start":6521.496,"end":6537.443,"text":"好那我們31到34案我們就以32案徐巧欣委員的32案為主案然後凍結150萬然後提出書面報告並經同意使得凍支接下來35案"},{"start":6542.798,"end":6554.075,"text":"第35案系第5目一般行政02基本行政工作維持提案委員委省博洋委員已是委員辦公室說明及提供資料配合委員提案凍結100萬提書面報告後時可動之報告完畢"},{"start":6558.815,"end":6587.474,"text":"沈博洋委員好 謝謝退輔會那我簡短說明一下就是說呢因為畢竟最近有蠻多案子的那很多全責是在國防部啦但是因為退輔會畢竟有一些行政給予的一些業務救學啊安置啊什麼等等之類的所以呢我們是希望能夠也是提升退輔會的主體性那變成說退輔會也可以去增加這一些如果他去濫用他自己的這個位置去參與這些這個不應當的行為的一些成本啦那就是希望修法能夠往那個方向是 我們尊示拜你"},{"start":6591.478,"end":6595.681,"text":"審博洋委員動解100萬提出書面報告並經同意時的動資36至38案"},{"start":6613.038,"end":6634.407,"text":"召委好委員好第36至第38案是第5目一般行政02基本行政工作維持業務費第36至第37案提案委員為馬文君委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員不檢列預算同意合併凍結100萬元提出書面報告進經同意後使得凍資"},{"start":6639.949,"end":6649.933,"text":"第38案提案委員為馬文君委員以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請同意改組決議辦理報告完畢馬文君委員這三個提案3637其實它的性質比較相近就是說之前我們有提到在"},{"start":6665.155,"end":6683.819,"text":"這個融民公司他已經都進入清算階段而且好幾年前都已經說是最後階段了那還有這樣的人力有來做過說明可是我們希望可以儘速解決如果說有什麼樣的一些後續的工作不要拖太久運用這樣的人力同意冰凍100萬"},{"start":6690.581,"end":6693.604,"text":"那也請提供那個農業公司他的土地標售的一些相關資料就這個部分那38案我們同意改成主決議因為剛剛前面有一案大概也是一樣的我們是跟其他委員併案不過在這裡特別再提一下就是說我們在114年是抗戰勝利80週年"},{"start":6713.804,"end":6714.285,"text":"請王定宇召委"},{"start":6741.722,"end":6757.581,"text":"我對決議沒有意見我是請問一下也跟我們的農民公司有關係在台南農旗的歐興公司欠我們退輔會的錢到底還完了沒還差多少現在大概我們第一階段"},{"start":6758.402,"end":6783.658,"text":"我們農民工跟他和解和解完以他第一期付款已經給我們了和解是金額不變改分期賠付是不是對對對那他還是要照賠款他有照時間賠付嗎有有有都按照時間我們都管制了因為其實那一塊是全世界唯三的那種只有三個地方有Georgia跟台灣那個二地形本來說他如果賠不起的話我們當年是以地做股"},{"start":6784.678,"end":6809.355,"text":"以地作股49%的股份後來被他用經營公司的方法把你們稀釋到只剩20幾%那如果他賠付有困難的話我們為什麼不把他欠的金額改成用地還給我們把國家的地要回來否則你們讓了50公頃的地給他那個地方現在變國家地質公園的預訂地然後當然台南市政府跟你們撥交有一些問題就是說"},{"start":6810.776,"end":6811.716,"text":"請示上級單位說改成把地還給我們來抵債"},{"start":6840.421,"end":6852.416,"text":"我們當年是把地給他來當股所以把它逆向回來我覺得這對我們這個地方的發展或者這種珍貴地質的永續保存會比較重要另外"},{"start":6854.039,"end":6877.376,"text":"你們還有一席董事他們那裡要去裝太陽能板的事業是萬萬不可他們也評估過萬萬不可如果這樣子的話我們地方是不只是會抗爭因為那個地形不能做這樣的事情而且那裡土地容易崩塌大家那個會加速破壞那個二地形這兩件事情交代給你們好不好謝謝委員"},{"start":6879.377,"end":6905.232,"text":"好,謝謝那我們現在就是36、37案並案然後由馬文君委員然後36為主案嘛,凍結100萬然後提書面報告並經同意使得凍資然後退伍會要回覆書面報告內容要那委員所推詢的部分要一併回覆然後38案馬文君委員的提案改成主決議然後接下來39案"},{"start":6910.195,"end":6929.34,"text":"各位委員好我是行政管理處處長張光宇第39案系第5目一般行政02基本行政工作維持設備及投資提案委員馬文勳委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意預算照列"},{"start":6932.322,"end":6939.406,"text":"謝謝主席39案本是同意照列不過因為我們在很多預算上面我們還是希望有一些設備或者我們要採買的這些相關的包括這一次是空氣清淨機大家在巡駕的時候應該要省慎一點就是如果可以遵截還是要遵截是謝謝委員指導謝謝同意照列"},{"start":6958.244,"end":6959.246,"text":"39.馬文君委員提案照列40."},{"start":6959.246,"end":6961.889,"text":"報告第40案,系第5目,一般行政,零三幹部在職集,亦難替代訓練"},{"start":6977.908,"end":6996.936,"text":"提案委員為林楚瑩委員,以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料,懇請委員不檢列預算,同意凍結54萬元,提出素面報告後,使得凍置。好,我知道你們有來說明,但是本席基本上是非常支持退輔會的預算,因為我也算是榮卷,所以說"},{"start":6998.376,"end":7004,"text":"但是你們從相較於113年度你們的預算是增加將近一倍但是在這個編列的過程當中卻沒有寫出這個原因那麼我可以同意就是用凍結的方式但是我希望你們未來在預算編列的時候必須讓委員能夠看得出來而不是後續我叫你來說明然後你才說明說因為是什麼退除役的特考兩年才一招"},{"start":7023.854,"end":7041.141,"text":"所以去年沒有編列所以今年放進來就比去年來的多然後再來是替代役員額增加然後訓練三天變五天等等我認為這個都是後續你們才不給我的答案但是我希望你們未來在這個部分能夠更合適的編列或是做更詳盡的說明好嗎好那事實案就林楚瑜委員提案我們就凍結54萬"},{"start":7053.077,"end":7056.84,"text":"然後提出書面報告並經同意時的動資接下來41到43案"},{"start":7064.249,"end":7081.023,"text":"第41至43案並案系第5目一般行政零事辦理統計與資訊管理作業業務費提案委員分別為馬文君委員、徐曉欣委員均已至委員辦公室說明並提供相關資料懇請合併凍結一百萬元提書面報告並經統一後使得動之"},{"start":7089.478,"end":7102.633,"text":"馬文君委員謝謝大概4143的這個部分因為我們主要的提案內容是因為我們在看到現在社會上詐騙的情況非常的氾濫非常嚴重那榮民其實受騙的這個機率也非常的高"},{"start":7110.6,"end":7122.287,"text":"所以在我們有很多不管在訪視也好或者在很多我們的APP啊LINE啊或者其他的可以利用的工具盡量可以去讓他們可以知道說怎麼樣去防範或者怎麼樣去預防這些詐騙然後如果有碰到疑似的問題應該要怎麼樣協助解決我想就這一些希望可以提供比較積極的一個協助的方案"},{"start":7136.716,"end":7138.437,"text":"提出書面報告並經同意使得動資"},{"start":7167.335,"end":7167.676,"text":"接下來44案到52案"},{"start":7170.543,"end":7191.512,"text":"第44至52案並案（第5目一般行政臨時辦理統計與資訊管理（作業（設備及投資提案委員分別為（林益君（王定宇趙偉（還有陳冠廷委員（黃能委員（陳永康委員等（均與自委員辦公室進行說明（並提供相關資料（懇請合併凍結一百萬（並提書面報告後（使得動之"},{"start":7200.191,"end":7225.18,"text":"這個是有關資安風險這個資安本身成為一個很大的事業危害資安也變成很大的一個暗黑事業特別是公家機關不管是對database各資甚至於整個運作資安是一個大事情那本席看了一下你們的資安事件發生二三級高風險的占比率比較高到四成左右"},{"start":7225.82,"end":7246.123,"text":"所以可能我們的資安防護能力資安專責人員是不是還要再訓練像台南我的選區有這個國科會的資安中心嘛資安大樓他兩棟各企業連那個最大型的企業都會派人去裡面受訓學功夫回來學會怎麼保護自己的部分所以我還是強調說"},{"start":7247.584,"end":7262.63,"text":"現代社會以往的科程組織分門別列部會不同老死不相往來都沒關係可是現代社會每一件事情幾乎都跨部會的從醫療、長照、治安所以我會建議就是說我們退府會"},{"start":7263.65,"end":7286.575,"text":"是不是要有專責的資安人員甚至每個單位要有人有點像我們以前部隊帶兵我一個連裡面一定要有一個醫護啊專長的EMT至少到EMT2啊類似這樣子然後呢詢問一下國科會他們在資安中心我們那個叫做Cyber Security他那個資安中心是國家級的他每一段時間都固定會收訓訓練你怎麼防護"},{"start":7288.935,"end":7289.135,"text":"黃任惠委員"},{"start":7318.211,"end":7341.701,"text":"所以今本案經說明在113年度已全數的完工那12月15號驗收完成付款執行率即可達到百分之百提醒退補會明年的案子還有八所農家要建置無線網路務必注意到執行的期程以上同意兵案一百萬兵棟一百萬好來陳冠廷委員"},{"start":7349.054,"end":7372.489,"text":"剛才王定宇趙薇還有的分享就是關於這個資安通報的事件那還有這個我想要請教一下因為我看到這裡面的整個重整系統裡面那對於這個資安人員的剛才講到說都是跨部會的這些訓練的部分是不是也可以在書面報告裡面再跟我們更加的詳細的說明不是只有說他拿到什麼證照"},{"start":7373.89,"end":7374.07,"text":"主席"},{"start":7394.96,"end":7403.083,"text":"好那我們44案到52案我們以那個陳永康委員因為他我要分配一下陳永康委員的49案當作主案然後凍結100萬提出書面報告並經同意使得凍資還有退輔會要回覆書面報告的內容要包括剛才病案委員所追尋的部分接下來53到55案"},{"start":7423.889,"end":7440.026,"text":"第53至55併案系第五目一般行政05辦理榮民工程公司清理計劃提案委員為林益君昭委及黃仁委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料肯請合併凍結50萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":7447.591,"end":7450.695,"text":"好 因為這個在辦公室都是有溝通過了嘛那我們53到55併案我們讓那個黃仁委員好了讓他55案為主案凍結50萬一樣提出書面報告並經同意使得凍支接下來56案謝謝周委"},{"start":7469.298,"end":7479.123,"text":"第56案（西第六幕（榮民醫療照護（提案委員為林益君昭偉（以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料（配合委員提案凍結100萬元（提書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":7483.629,"end":7487.53,"text":"好這56案的話因為我們花東的醫療的資源比較缺乏尤其是願意下鄉服務的醫生其實很少所以我是希望退伍會可以針對公費生的訓練還有留任除了要加強誘因之外還要如何透過公費生願意留在花東地區還有一些偏鄉地區為當地的民眾服務也是你們退伍會榮總體系應該要多挹注一些資源來想這些方法"},{"start":7511.155,"end":7511.215,"text":"委員指導"},{"start":7527.234,"end":7533.317,"text":"第57至58病案C.D.六目榮民醫療照護01對榮民及特定醫療體系之補助提案委員為陳冠廷委員以致委員辦公室書名及提供資料懇請委員同意合併凍結兩百萬元提書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":7557.551,"end":7558.251,"text":"陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員"},{"start":7587.375,"end":7590.34,"text":"選57案以57案為主案凍結200萬順便報告並經同意時的凍資接下來59案"},{"start":7601.756,"end":7629.724,"text":"第59案至60案稀第6目榮民醫療照護01對榮民及特定醫療體系之補助講補助費第59案提案委員為馬文君委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員不檢列預算同意凍結100萬元提書面報告後使得凍支第60案提案委員為沈伯陽委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料或委員同意改為主決議"},{"start":7632.697,"end":7635.399,"text":"請麻煩軍委員謝謝主席針對59案的部分這個是退府會對於補助各種分院收容被棄養的一般民眾以及榮民移眷的這些精神病患所需要的伙食費那在114年明年渡編了438萬6千元"},{"start":7655.111,"end":7655.271,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7676.118,"end":7676.318,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":7697.99,"end":7701.893,"text":"甚至應該積極透過警政戶政或者財政稅務機構要去通知那個病患的家屬要取得聯繫因為如果說自己的家屬用這樣惡意的方式我覺得這個也是在社會上應該是不容許的另外一方面對於我們的整個預算也可以比較符合我們的施政目標在這裡我們希望可以取得一個平衡點那同意"},{"start":7727.483,"end":7729.284,"text":"並動100萬好那我們59案就馬文君委員提案齁凍結100萬那提出提書面報告那馬文君委員要經過同意嗎使得動之經過同意齁再使得動之那接下來60案"},{"start":7754.266,"end":7761.07,"text":"60案提案委員為沈博洋委員,已經到委員辦公室說明及提供資料,獲得委員同意改為主決議。"},{"start":7762.537,"end":7782.228,"text":"好那60案是沈博洋委員齁然後這一個60案改成組決議那61案61案C第6目榮民醫療照護02長期照顧與身心障礙醫療復健服務提案委員為馬文君委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料配合委員提案凍結100萬元提書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":7788.664,"end":7808.442,"text":"這一筆主要是針對因為我們退輔會在僱傭照服務員我們人數總數是減少的可是經費沒有改變這個部分到底它是為了什麼就是說你是經費沒有改變的情況之下可是我們用的人以前430幾個那現在只剩下400個所以你在"},{"start":7813.18,"end":7820.548,"text":"那到底是多少才夠每一個我們希望在這個案子這個提案裡面把相關的比如說我們農家每一個到底需要多少相關的這些照護人力然後把那個配比把它列出來然後提供給我們提供給本市"},{"start":7835.85,"end":7845.178,"text":"因為公費救養的榮民數量減少主要是為了兆福園的部分我們希望能夠再調整基礎薪資從3萬元調到3萬3千元因為那個基礎薪資也是當時我們提出來的那應該要合理的去給付這樣的相關薪資沒有錯可是你在人數上面要怎麼樣去統計他實際的需求因為你只是口頭說我們不曉得"},{"start":7861.431,"end":7870.755,"text":"所以你在增加的減少人數可是在經費不變的情況之下還是把那個實際的需求把它提出來然後核實編列是謝謝委員指導謝謝"},{"start":7876.243,"end":7892.333,"text":"馬文君委員提案凍結一百萬提出書面並經同意時的凍資還有退伍會要回覆書面報告的內容請包括剛才委員所推詢的部分一定列入"},{"start":7895.277,"end":7912.632,"text":"第62案西第六目榮民醫療照護 長期照顧與身心障礙醫療復健服務 獎補助費提案委員為馬文君委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料 配合委員提案凍結兩百萬元提書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":7916.135,"end":7918.937,"text":"馬文君委員謝謝主席就這個部分在明年的預算我們總共編列了1億701萬那預算增加的部分是1300多萬明年的預算其實增加了不少那來說明的時候主要是說針對這些鄉牙就假牙補助他全口跟非全口然後還有一些輔具是什麼樣的輔具"},{"start":7945.573,"end":7974.343,"text":"府區有那個駐聽器還有議員那以前不是都有嗎主要是那個涉及到他的單價調漲另外就是我們那個深情補助的對象有增加低收入戶還有中低收入戶的這個榮民所以人數有增加到大概5000人次左右原來是多少他增加5000人增加大概5000人次光是榮民就增加5000人的中低跟低中低是一般的民眾中低是一般民眾"},{"start":7976.306,"end":7977.227,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7992.37,"end":8010.88,"text":"我們這次修正這個向委員報告我們這次修正這個部分向鄉牙的部分我補充一下我們原來是要全口無牙才能夠做全口那我們這次開放有到三顆牙的部分就讓他們納為可以補助的對象另外一個就是我們針對榮民不是公費救養但是他家庭的狀況不好"},{"start":8011.88,"end":8013.821,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":8035.694,"end":8042.657,"text":"一個是物價的調漲 現在 物價調漲 因為那個其他衛福部也都有編預算 縣市政府也有編預算我們現在講的是 因為你是把山科亞增加進去你也沒有做過調查 所以你能夠編出這樣的預算我不知道你為什麼會說 因為增加那個人數到底增加多少 或者他的經費多少我看不出來你們有提供這樣相關的資料我意思是說你增加的是什麼樣的對象"},{"start":8064.66,"end":8080.549,"text":"我們在書面上面在詳細的向委員做報告剛剛口頭上的也就初步讓委員報告第一個 襄陽的部分價格也漲了現在原來我們補助全口是4萬塊現在4萬塊根本沒有辦法做到全口所以我們也增加了5萬可是衛福部是編多少"},{"start":8086.843,"end":8090.667,"text":"應該都是參考大概大概縣市政府目前我們知道應該是4萬塊喔所以如果是只有你們跟人家不一樣然後你還有納入一些其他的一個身份"},{"start":8100.799,"end":8101.46,"text":"一般的民眾他可能也不會排除榮民就不可以"},{"start":8123.32,"end":8127.122,"text":"他以前我們沒有我們以前沒有的時候其實在縣市政府其實他還是有幫這些就是只要符合資格他都可以去申請這樣的相關補助所以你這個部分可能要把它理清楚不然你你有你又比人家高然後你現在增加的部分還有還有三顆牙的"},{"start":8144.97,"end":8162.215,"text":"他們有那個半口的啦就是非全口嘛你應該要把它離清楚因為你這樣等於一國好幾次啊你有些其他部會是這樣然後你定的是自己又跟人家不一樣所以這個要把它講清楚因為你們來說明的時候並沒有很明確的講這些然後還有縣市政府其實他是有合作的診所那有簽約那我們退府會有沒有"},{"start":8173.009,"end":8194.367,"text":"我們也有合約的但主要也是鼓勵鼓勵到我們榮民醫院裡面的這個裡面來做有沒有簽約因為你如果你是鼓勵嘛那不要他如果沒有那萬一發生一些糾紛或者在經費的支出上面有問題那你怎麼辦因為縣市政府他是有簽約的所以我們到底有沒有也沒有很明確的一個說法"},{"start":8196.656,"end":8198.437,"text":"裝置假牙全口半口或是說你現在要增加第三顆"},{"start":8218.091,"end":8218.592,"text":"是 謝委員"},{"start":8237.525,"end":8241.247,"text":"馬文鈞委員提案人凍結兩百萬提出書面報告並經同意時的凍資還有剛才委員所詢問的退委會回覆的書面內容一併併入第63案西第六幕榮民醫療照護03各級榮民醫院營運督導管理"},{"start":8259.835,"end":8268.362,"text":"提案委員為林楚英委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料勳請委員不檢列預算同意凍結100萬元提書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":8272.284,"end":8275.807,"text":"主席謝謝我想這個題目就是有關於我們4間總院跟12家分院針對保險理賠一起通的這個部分我也質詢過我剛剛手上拿到的最新訊息目前的話是4家分院已經上線然後還有些已經是簽約那麼有一些是還在預計簽約當中"},{"start":8295.603,"end":8315.637,"text":"那我們都知道其實我特別簡略的這個部分就是各級醫院的督導跟考核裡面的相關的費用嘛包括就是醫療服務品質的提升那我們知道這個其實就是服務醫療品質提升非常重要的如果你們希望我從不簡略改為就是凍結我可以但是問題是我解凍的要求"},{"start":8319.96,"end":8328.744,"text":"不是說三個月就給你們解凍喔是我要要求全部都可以上線喔你們有辦法做到嗎我們會朝向全部上線的目標邁進如果沒有上線是不能解凍那你們就會凍100喔還是你們就是因為這四間總院有四家嗎我就減列40萬至少你們可以有時間因為上線的過程這個部分我非常理解因為你們還有器材還有設備還有要溝通"},{"start":8344.051,"end":8366.677,"text":"所以我問一下主委跟副主委就是的意見是你們要動100但是要全部上線可以使用我才會願意解凍這是我的要求不然的話就是簡列40萬就等於是這四間總院要負起這個所謂監督的責任對因為我要求的就是這個服務要能夠上線簡列40好謝謝委員"},{"start":8375.731,"end":8380.181,"text":"六十三案（臨除營委員提案簡列40萬科目自行調整"},{"start":8389.395,"end":8413.752,"text":"第64至66案西第六目榮民醫療照護05一是人力培訓及專業教育訓練第64及66案提案委員分別為馬文君委員陳冠廷委員軍議制委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員同意合併凍結一百萬元提書面報告後使得動之第65案提案委員為王定宇召委吳立華委員"},{"start":8414.733,"end":8417.735,"text":"以提供說明資料或委員同意改為主決議辦理"},{"start":8429.645,"end":8434.792,"text":"針對公私利益學校我們待訓的部分因為我們有編列這樣相關的預算大概就是包括一些學校儀器的費用學雜費等等其實這些都含在內那這些培訓生我們現在人數也在減少是不是"},{"start":8446.764,"end":8472.593,"text":"陪續人數是有減少所以其實我們也希望說像剛剛可能也有提到我們現在的護理人員其實缺額非常的高就高達兩萬五千人那包括像這些醫生的人力這樣子的公費我們希望說針對偏鄉的醫院他所缺的科別去做一些可能"},{"start":8474.52,"end":8474.7,"text":"同意併動一百萬"},{"start":8503.902,"end":8504.103,"text":"陳冠廷委員"},{"start":8512.123,"end":8513.404,"text":"提出面報告．使得動資王定宇提案改組決議67至69案"},{"start":8534.053,"end":8549.029,"text":"第67至69案．第6目榮民醫療照護05醫事人力培訓與專業教育訓練講補助費第67案提案委員為黃人委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料或委員同意改為主決議辦理"},{"start":8550.31,"end":8565.872,"text":"第68案提案委員為陳永康委員,以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料,懇請委員同意預算照列第69案提案委員為陳冠廷委員,以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料,懇請委員同意預算照列"},{"start":8570.118,"end":8595.767,"text":"陳永康委員我把68案給大家做個說明因為我們的醫師的人才培育就除了這個各公私立學校以外因為現在所謂的高等教育生根計劃那這裡面是可以爭取教育部的贊助但是需要我們這個退輔會協助跟教育部跟衛福部"},{"start":8596.826,"end":8597.066,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8611.561,"end":8637.686,"text":"國防醫學院的金費是編在國防部底下所以教育部並沒有提供他的高等教育深耕計劃所以這些東西我想透過溝通協助增加深耕計劃的額度對吸引人才將來加入榮民的各種意願是有幫助的這點我是預算照列不凍結"},{"start":8638.626,"end":8657.432,"text":"謝偉銘議員"},{"start":8661.872,"end":8662.072,"text":"接下来70-71案"},{"start":8686.637,"end":8699.192,"text":"70-71病案,系第6目,榮民醫療照護,06,高齡醫學發展與照護提案委員為王定宇召委,馬文君委員,吳立華委員,均以提供書面說明,懇請合併凍結200萬元,提書面報告後,使得凍資王定宇召委"},{"start":8706.338,"end":8731.178,"text":"我同意併動兩百萬那這71案主要是針對輔具那我們大概我在當市議員的時候台灣開始推無障礙之家輔具工廠等等那我們近幾年引力加下一段更進步了還有AI照護輔具等等所以我們這個提案是希望說退輔會其實"},{"start":8732.759,"end":8758.329,"text":"你們有一個很寶貴的東西包含農民醫院就是你們有大量的data因為你們照顧的人其實夠多經驗夠充足可是這些數據的運用以及輔具運用的經驗然後橫向跟其他部會的溝通可以創造出可以更可以照顧到這些不管是失能或者需要照顧輔助的人還有當attent要去照顧他的人怎麼避免自己受傷讓"},{"start":8759.87,"end":8778.471,"text":"做看護的人也得到幫助了所以我們這個洞監是讓你們提出一個說明報告來就你們現有擁有的現在做得不錯的然後怎麼樣去精進經濟包含的運用數據運用新科技還有橫向跟其他部會的合作科技部那邊就是現在國科會"},{"start":8779.172,"end":8779.232,"text":"黃德偉委員"},{"start":8797.681,"end":8816.995,"text":"補充說明在67案剛剛因為有事所以這邊再做一個說明本年度的年底新學期的完成的註冊後預算執行率已達到86%雖然因學生會有休退學的狀況那使預算執行率不可能達到這個100%"},{"start":8818.696,"end":8829.926,"text":"對不會也應該協調學校盡量輔導學生完成公費醫師的培育所以本來後來商討之後改成為主決議以上"},{"start":8839.071,"end":8859.063,"text":"七十案的部分這個部分因為我們在榮民醫療照護的這個預算裡面他在高齡醫學發展與照護這個編列預算數高達兩億一千五百九十四萬可是在明年"},{"start":8860.023,"end":8862.725,"text":"推動醫療轉型長照服務模式還有配合衛生福利部住宿機構照顧品質獎勵計畫這兩個部分他主要是什麼可以說明一下嗎先簡要的說明"},{"start":8886.284,"end":8910.127,"text":"就是配服衛福部的長照計畫我們會增開相關的收支的床位床位?可是你這裡不是增加床位啊?增加床位之後我們就開始會針對居家照護的部分來做一個進一步的提升包括佈置這個社區的整體照護服務網路那也會建置這個生理監測的儀器那同時也會有移動的智慧裝備"},{"start":8912.179,"end":8927.964,"text":"因為像你說電子維理的這些科技它從過去就有了嘛可是你到底是運用什麼或者要需要什麼樣子的這些產品跟那個裝備可能都不是那麼明確那這個部分我們同意凍結200萬可是要把那個說明清楚還有你增加的部分然後預算的那個配置是謝謝委員指導"},{"start":8938.968,"end":8940.749,"text":"提出書面報告並經同意時的動資（（還有剛才兵案的委員（（所詢問的部分（（退伍會回覆的書面的報告內容要一併列入接下來72案"},{"start":8962.318,"end":8972.927,"text":"第72案（第6目（榮民醫療照護07安寧緩和醫療照護與推廣（提案委員為林楚瑩委員（以提供說明資料（配合委員提案凍結500萬元（提書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":8979.786,"end":8981.507,"text":"提案委員為陳冠廷委員以提供說明資料 懇請委員同意改為主決議辦理"},{"start":9009.495,"end":9009.755,"text":"陳冠廷委員"},{"start":9025.965,"end":9028.446,"text":"第74至75病案,系第75榮民安養及養護,提案委員為羅美玲委員,以示委員辦公室說明及提供資料,而懇請同意合併凍結100萬提書面報告後,使得凍資。"},{"start":9048.841,"end":9060.752,"text":"這兩案都是我的我同意就是這兩案就是病棟100萬那可是我還是要說明一下我們74案74案是跟我們的人力聘股有關係好像這個"},{"start":9062.714,"end":9080.587,"text":"張嬅、花蓮、馬蘭、屏東跟嘉麗這五家榮家他的辦理業務人數占整體的這個人數的比例只有5到6成當然你之前有來說明就是說這是事務性人力採取欲缺不補的方式希望就是逐步將這個負責的業務外包所以會影響到這個整體的人數的這個比例"},{"start":9085.111,"end":9085.651,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":9103.166,"end":9105.268,"text":"第75案是針對榮家戰床的部分,在去年11月榮家總床數是8782床,戰床率是7048"},{"start":9125.422,"end":9130.244,"text":"整體占床數看起來已經提升到80.26%之前我是看到是不到八成現在有提升到八成可是我們還是要注意就是說我們開放那其中我們有開放給民眾這個床數1649床那是占了這個占床率呢他是在占床數是1418那我們來看一下他的占床率其實是比這個"},{"start":9152.653,"end":9153.074,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":9171.05,"end":9172.472,"text":"這部分的話可能希望大家來做一個調整以上謝謝"},{"start":9186.997,"end":9187.037,"text":"毛孟靜議員"},{"start":9208.613,"end":9226.599,"text":"所以因為有時候他占床他很長的時間如果他一次就待了10年那你如果把很多的床位把它釋出因為這個我們之前也探討過你把它釋出以後未來如果真的榮民有需要的時候你沒有床位可以給他所以在這個部分要怎麼樣去做適當的那個調整我想可能也要納入全盤的規劃好 黃教委員請"},{"start":9236.698,"end":9265.472,"text":"因為農家暫存率是一個長期以來的問題一直到現在所以退不回雖然為了調配需求保留部分的床位但不同的農家需求量也不一樣退不回應該要更細緻的規劃尤其是開放開放一般民眾的床暫存率只有18.78%原因就是因為退不回目前來講的話也應該要精進加強"},{"start":9267.574,"end":9267.734,"text":"主席"},{"start":9282.796,"end":9285.718,"text":"第76至83案系第七目融力安養及養護01基本行政工作維持業務費第76案提案"},{"start":9308.197,"end":9331.759,"text":"委員馬文君委員以及委員辦公室說明及提供資料,懇請委員同意凍結100萬,提書面報告後,使得凍資。第77至83案,提案委員分別為李毅君,王定宇,趙偉,馬文君,黃仁,陳冠廷及李楚瑜等委員,均以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料,懇請委員不檢列預算,同意合併凍結200萬,提書面報告後,使得凍資。"},{"start":9337.291,"end":9337.532,"text":"王定宇召委"},{"start":9351.977,"end":9367.165,"text":"謝謝我同意病案凍結200萬這個提案其實是一個我還是站在鼓勵的角度我們根據數據來看公費榮民的床位需求的類別是養護床77.7%安養床77.7%"},{"start":9372.168,"end":9378.916,"text":"自費榮民的床位需求類別是施治床85%養護床82.4%還有一般民眾自費的床位需求類別是養護床85.9%安養床80.3%所以我們會發現"},{"start":9391.909,"end":9406.658,"text":"不同類別他的需求有重疊的也有不一樣的像這個自費的私置床的比例就高達85那公費農民的需求都未達八成所以本席是具體建議就是說"},{"start":9407.699,"end":9424.127,"text":"退伍會在這一塊的部分可以在床位類別之間的床數的分配調控人力資源器材的配置的調控可以跟著這個數據來調就是我分配的資源要根據需求方"},{"start":9424.787,"end":9425.988,"text":"主席毛孟基委員"},{"start":9452.011,"end":9466.503,"text":"主要77案因為跟其他委員並動的這個部分77案因為我們看到我們勞務外包的人力就我們退輔會有照服員護理師警衛出工清潔員駕駛水電鍋爐鍋爐鍋爐要燒熱水現在還有燒熱水有他鍋爐裝備"},{"start":9477.277,"end":9488.771,"text":"用鍋爐的這個部分安養機構那因為我們看到我們看到這一些部分就是勞務外包的經費因為在114年新增預算達到兩億多"},{"start":9493.456,"end":9512.893,"text":"所以就這麼多的勞務外包我們有幾個方向其實也可以去探討看看除了剛剛提到的因為容家委外的人力這麼多那之前比如說像我們大概又都是現在已經都趨向給"},{"start":9515.494,"end":9515.735,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9542.645,"end":9542.765,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":9573.444,"end":9575.105,"text":"投資公司對不對我們退伍會裡面有一家投資公司嘛比如像我們這樣子的一個模式你都已經需要用到這麼多的勞派錢的這些外包人力那你這個投資公司可不可以去選擇幾個比較好的然後去做這樣的投資一方面也可以讓我們自己"},{"start":9599.126,"end":9608.71,"text":"退伍的一些跑者他可能有工作機會不然你每次去受訓都找不到工作那大家對那個剛剛那些訓練課程越來越沒有興趣那如果像這些你如果做過專業訓練以後又可以到這邊來做服務也許你可以創造更多的這樣的機會那你轉投資公司不要每次我們做都是賠錢的那好像"},{"start":9621.636,"end":9622.096,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":9642.65,"end":9651.753,"text":"的工作我相信也比較容易掌控所以這個部分就這些可能可以提出比較積極的一個做法另外就是說這76案的部分這是單獨凍結因為我們看到我們榮家的公務車來源其實還蠻多的第一個就公務預算第二個有一般機構或個人贈送的"},{"start":9671.138,"end":9679.045,"text":"好像一些救護車或者很多民眾其實也喜歡捐贈這一些那第三個就是租用車的這項需求可是我們看到容家的正職駕駛並不多所以你甚至都是委外聘用剛剛我們念到的那些外包的人力裡面就有駕駛那你又要委外聘用這些司機駕駛然後你現在又要租車因為你的車輛"},{"start":9699.102,"end":9699.202,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":9715.222,"end":9721.086,"text":"委託給外包的這些機構的價值到底分別有多少我想還要把那個數據提供出來不然因為這樣我覺得可能我們現在這樣很可惜那另外還有就是你們在這個編列的預算裡面這個很高可是"},{"start":9733.254,"end":9733.534,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9754.92,"end":9758.122,"text":"是這些嗎?還是你們又新找的?我們明年要開始租用公開招標小規模的小規模的所以那些不見得他們還是來參與所以就這些部分因為你增加的智慧床墊"},{"start":9773.931,"end":9774.211,"text":"委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":9796.169,"end":9800.39,"text":"租車、智慧床墊、電池、辦公室物機具這些為什麼一定都是要租賃有一些如果你是常態性的使用比如說像智慧床墊你們以前好像已經合作很久了不管是跟什麼樣的一個對象那你到底為什麼是要用租的那他的金額會不會更高他支出的預算會不會有什麼差異這個應該也要"},{"start":9825.959,"end":9826.859,"text":"提出一些數據資料﹖是﹖"},{"start":9854.136,"end":9855.017,"text":"76.盲軍委員提案凍結100萬提出書面資料並經同意時的凍資77.到83案"},{"start":9870.299,"end":9871.34,"text":"77到83我們以我們分配一下嘛我們以79案為主案就王定宇委員提出的然後凍結兩百萬然後提書面報告時的凍資接下來我們84案"},{"start":9885.817,"end":9898.603,"text":"第84案系第7目（農民安養及養護01基本行政工作維持（設備及投資提案委員（馬文君委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料（懇請委員不檢列預算（同意凍結200萬提出運報後或使得凍資"},{"start":9904.219,"end":9929.514,"text":"馬文菊委員謝謝主席這個部分我們也是希望提出整體說明因為來說的時候其實還是有一些沒有很清楚還有一些相關的一些數據資料第一就是說你智慧的生理監測儀器到底是什麼然後需要多少數量因為你這一次又有新增預算那每年其實大概就這些部分你新增的部分到底說明清楚"},{"start":9930.114,"end":9935.578,"text":"他的需求性到底在哪裡第一個就是生理檢測儀器第二個手動變電動的護理床這個一直在換所以你到底需要多少預算你到底需要多少數量你的騎乘有多少因為你的床數就差不多是這樣"},{"start":9950.97,"end":9962.962,"text":"那你到底需要總數多少然後你的預算到底要多少然後你要分多少期程去把它完備你應該要一次做出來你不要每年增加一些然後這些項目連連總總的全部都含在裡面大家都看不出來"},{"start":9966.766,"end":9970.407,"text":"這是第二個你應該要有一個全盤的規劃那你現在一直在引進這些科技的一些設備那你在人力上面的需求是不是要減少就這個部分它是不是有可替代性這個也應該要一併說明清楚你的科技產品有哪些然後它的效益是什麼"},{"start":9989.753,"end":9990.033,"text":"馬文君委員提案凍結200萬"},{"start":10019.893,"end":10028.16,"text":"還是一樣提出書面報告並經同一時的動之然後接下來85案然後85案等一下結束之後我們就先休息5分鐘"},{"start":10035.031,"end":10050.381,"text":"就學就業處處長報告第85案系第9目一般建築及設備第一節營建工程01退出役官兵職業訓練中心防射整建工程提案委員為馬文君委員已經到委員辦公室說明及提供資料懇請委員不檢列預算同意凍結300萬提書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":10058.677,"end":10067.119,"text":"這個部分有來做一個初步的說明不過因為這個是三年的一個工程從113年到115年那預算數大概3900萬決標的金額是3600萬那你今年說要做電力設施這些相關的改善我們希望你把它一次說清楚因為你既然是三年那決標數也出來了那第一年第二年第三年分別要做什麼預算配置大概多少一次把它講清楚這樣大家在看預算的時候也比較容易"},{"start":10087.385,"end":10089.187,"text":"同意凍結300萬謝謝委員85案馬文君委員提案凍結300萬然後提書面報告並經同意時得凍資現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":10115.046,"end":10115.688,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":10125.321,"end":10126.982,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":10148.908,"end":10149.628,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10579.144,"end":10580.885,"text":"好,那我們就繼續"},{"start":10583.477,"end":10609.232,"text":"第86（91案中央租倉報告第86（91案系第9目一般建築及設備第一階營建工程零二安養機構房設及生活設施整建工程提案委員馬文君、徐曉新、陳冠廷、陳永康、林益君、張偉及黃瀾委員均與這委員辦公室說明及提供資料根據委員不簡略預算同意合併凍結兩百萬提書面報告使得凍資"},{"start":10616.966,"end":10631.774,"text":"為針對這個案子總共有17件的工程案到今年的9月底這個完成了這個全數完成的發包對不對那深造及設計等為什麼要花在這麼長的時間這是第一點"},{"start":10633.915,"end":10646.009,"text":"另外其中16項的工程會在年底竣工請在提供的報告詳細的列出每一項竣工的時間是所以本席建議凍結200萬是先讓人知道"},{"start":10651.116,"end":10651.576,"text":"馬蒙茱委員"},{"start":10665.635,"end":10670.317,"text":"我們希望因為主委也是之前在國防部擔任部長嘛那其實那時候我們有很多的不管是銀色的改善各方面其實他也是全盤全部都已經有把那個項目比如說要做100項都已經把它全部都"},{"start":10685.263,"end":10690.626,"text":"都把它整合起來大概都有全盤的規劃可是按照預算的需求再去做每年你的期程再把它編出來不然又有些輕重緩急因為我們看到你在家裡容家他的住床數跟入住意願其實相對都比較低的可是我們在明年在這個部分卻要執行兩項比較大的工程"},{"start":10707.757,"end":10713.141,"text":"我們覺得這樣好像很奇怪有些容家好像人還比較多住房率還比較高可是你反而沒有去做一些改善那挑選家裡容家這樣的目的不知道是什麼就是說這個部分那你在這個現在容家除了台南是新的以外其他都是比較老舊的我們不反對你重新去做整建"},{"start":10734.355,"end":10734.495,"text":"議員是要說明是"},{"start":10765.812,"end":10793.432,"text":"徐小琴委員關於安養機構防射生活設施改建工程我們退府會在113年有編了7800多萬的榮家更新跟1億9千萬在臺南跟雲林榮家的改進跟營造中程計劃但是你們在提供給我們的書面資料裡面"},{"start":10795.373,"end":10813.707,"text":"你們提到說呢這個114年有19件工程案編列所以是6250萬元那但是呢這19件工程案是什麼在提供給我們的書面資料裡面是沒有說明的所以呢我是希望說能夠"},{"start":10814.548,"end":10814.668,"text":"委員會議委員會議委員會議"},{"start":10836.796,"end":10839.518,"text":"86案到91案我們就並案處理我們以87案徐巧興委員的為主案然後凍結200萬其他都當共同提案人"},{"start":10856.412,"end":10863.157,"text":"提書面報告並經同意時的動資（（還有剛剛有一些並案委員所追尋的部分（（退入會回覆的書面報告內容要一併錄接下來92案到94案第92至94案系第9目一般建築及設備第一階營建工程03提升私製照顧量能長照萬委員區中層計劃提案委員分別徐曉清馬文君陳冠廷等委員"},{"start":10885.551,"end":10913.232,"text":"據自委員辦公室說明及提供資料肯請同意合併凍結200萬提書面報告後使得凍資好陳冠廷委員好謝謝謝謝張偉我們看到這個有跟我們說明的部分有說巴德板橋是有變革設計還有地方政府的延宕所以說才導致這樣子資訊率偏低零的狀況那當然我們希望說也不是只有地方政府希望強調一下就是能夠"},{"start":10914.506,"end":10921.614,"text":"會不趕快跟他們好好的溝通盡快把它完成不然這實在是臨實在是真的是不好看是是"},{"start":10925.077,"end":10926.338,"text":"馬文居委員有意見嗎是同意併動不過我們在這裡可能還是要強調一下因為我們的經費其實是從10億1000多萬增加到16億8000萬其實他調漲的那個經費其實很高那當然現在這幾年大概講的都是原物料啦人力啦什麼可是"},{"start":10949.733,"end":10958.595,"text":"當你這些預算金額已經調高以後我們希望你的期程一定要準時完工這個可能要在進度上面要去掌控是好那我們92到94案閉案處理我們還是以92案徐巧欣委員為主案然後凍結200萬然後提書面報告然後使得凍資"},{"start":10982.978,"end":11002.471,"text":"95-96案第95-96案系第9目一般建築及設備第一節營建工程03提升私事照顧量能長照萬我園區中層計劃設備及投資提案委員分別為林毅君昭偉黃仁偉元郡議制委員辦公室說明及提供資料肯請同意合併凍結200萬提書面報告時的凍資"},{"start":11009.052,"end":11009.297,"text":"好換了委員"},{"start":11012.321,"end":11027.725,"text":"常在萬我園區經過增加預算和計劃的展延所以現在的進度乃然落後所以什麼時候能追上預算的進度所以本席建議凍結200萬是我們說明清楚還有就是現在因為是高齡化的問題比較大失智的問題其實陸續是在增加的但現在退伍會的失智園區到現在進度還是持續的落後到底是發生什麼情況還有現在未來"},{"start":11040.689,"end":11051.215,"text":"是不是會有機會除了給農民安置之外是不是有機會開放給偏鄉或低收入的安家庭來安置呢我們順便再把說明清楚好那95案96案我們就並案處理了我們以96案為主案黃人的提案為主案然後凍結200萬提書面報告然後使得凍資接下來97到99案"},{"start":11069.85,"end":11073.154,"text":"総委及各位委員好行政管理處長不好意思不好意思97案"},{"start":11076.897,"end":11102.16,"text":"行政管理處處長專管委報告第97案系第9目一般建築及設備第一節營建工程向下04會本部房設整建工程提案委員是徐巧欣委員本案已提供書面說明資料懇請同意凍結100萬元提書面報告後並經同意使得通知"},{"start":11102.72,"end":11131.64,"text":"好的那我這邊說明一下就是這在立法院的預算中心裡面過往的評估報告裡面那去年這個有1285萬那這個做這個防水隔熱嘛然後呢今年這個在說明裡面臺北勞務中心已經有臺北榮總規劃納入信義院區那這個計劃是尚未核定也沒有動工的所以呢我們想要問一下這有沒有整建的這個必要"},{"start":11132.481,"end":11140.109,"text":"那可以同意剛才講到的這個凍結100萬那經過同意之後動之是謝謝委員好就是7案徐巧欣委員提案的凍結100萬然後提書面報告使得動之接下來就是8案"},{"start":11153.562,"end":11172.079,"text":"招委好我是服務照顧處處長第98案系第9目一般建築及設備第二節交通及運輸設備01服務機構車輛太過提案委員為馬文君委員以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料肯請委員同意凍結20萬提書面報告後使得凍資第99案系"},{"start":11177.423,"end":11194.832,"text":"第9目（一般建築及設備（第二節（交通及運輸設備（01服務機構（車輛汰購提案委員（為黃人委員以至委員辦公室說明及提供資料（懇請委員同意合併（第98案凍結20萬提書面報告後（使得凍資"},{"start":11202.332,"end":11215.14,"text":"好謝謝主席針對98案的這個部分因為我們看到這個預算主要雖然金額只有143萬可是我們要採購的是16輛的電動車嘛對不對要換機車要換機車換機車那你106年買的是電動車這是要換106年來說明的時候是要換106年106年買電動車不好用喔"},{"start":11231.298,"end":11249.313,"text":"跟委員報告,那個是機車,我們是要汰換106年買的機車,因為它已經使用7年了那里程數都已經偏高,因為它是跑外面的紡織服務它如果該換,我們當然不反對,可是因為我們看到的就是說,你這個是106年買的這個機車"},{"start":11252.256,"end":11252.836,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管收支部分"},{"start":11272.828,"end":11273.848,"text":"各位委員報告謝謝委員的指導跟執政這個後續容加這幾部機車我們會列入報告向委員詳細報告如何來做汰換"},{"start":11297.133,"end":11297.153,"text":"統一凍結20萬"},{"start":11320.928,"end":11332.217,"text":"黃仁委員原因是因為請提供一下計劃汰換的車輛使用里程和還有車輪這是凍結20萬的理由以上是謝謝委員好98案和99案就並案我們以99案黃仁委員的為主案凍結20萬提出書面報告並經同意時的凍值接下來100到101案"},{"start":11349.52,"end":11369.131,"text":"今晚出書報告﹖100-101案系第9目一般建築及設備第二節交通及運輸設備02安養機構車輛太過提議委員副委員馬文君及陳冠廷委員均以致委員辦公室說明及提供資料肯請同意合併凍結100萬提出的報告使得凍資"},{"start":11374.825,"end":11397.96,"text":"萬庭委員好,簡單說一下,因為我看到他是說21人做的大顆量一輛,總計預算是400萬元,我要說這個的必要性是什麼?因為其實這個21人做的,你說養護的話,其實也是相當不易,而且加上後來的這些保養費用,所以與其需要這樣大型的車輛,是不是可以考慮中型一點的?是,我剛才說明,對,到時候蘇美幫我說明清楚"},{"start":11402.579,"end":11426.877,"text":"馬文君委員謝謝主席一百案其實這個跟我們剛剛有一個提案其實是有點關聯性剛剛我們有提到一個是要租賃車輛的部分然後我們大概剛剛有提到我們的來源第一個就是公務預算採購然後就是一般民眾捐的或者第三個就是租賃的那你現在這一個案子是要買"},{"start":11427.958,"end":11432.201,"text":"那我們在講說你剛剛有些又要用租賃的然後有些要用買的然後你的考量到底是什麼可是我們現在顯然發現你在勞務外包的人力上面駕駛這個部分是用很大的人力所以你到底需不需要這麼多的車輛因為剛剛講的還要維護"},{"start":11448.351,"end":11458.12,"text":"然後你還要有駕駛這樣的人力的配置那是不是符合我們的需求是不是有一些比如說像榮家有時候他們要外出其實你包一輛車他還有駕駛然後還有所有的服務然後你又不用維修那這個部分是不是應該做一個全盤的考量就像我們剛剛講的其實是連貫的就是說你到底有多少車輛你需要多少駕駛你外包的人力的駕駛有多少其實應該要把它列出來"},{"start":11475.075,"end":11475.395,"text":"馬文君委員提案為主案 凍結100萬"},{"start":11503.137,"end":11506.347,"text":"提書面報告必經同意使得動之。"},{"start":11510.598,"end":11532.478,"text":"召委各位委員好我是退出役副處的處長羅馬可第102案系第11幕退出役官兵退休役副提案委員為林玉君召委以致召委辦公室說明及提供資料配合召委提案凍結一千萬元懇請本案提出書面報告經同意後使得凍資"},{"start":11534.375,"end":11555.215,"text":"因為最近不斷都是我們的退役的高階的將領都跑到中國去參加對岸的活動和對岸都有一些接觸甚至會接受一些中國官方的旅遊的招待所以為了避免中國企圖用各種方式滲透我們國家的安全所以因為有時候連那個宗教的交流也是有這樣"},{"start":11555.836,"end":11559.019,"text":"所以畢竟這些高階的將領過去都是有掌握我們國家的國安的機密所以不得不謹慎所以希望退伍會對曾經保家衛國的這些退除役官兵尤其是高階的將領赴大陸的規定可以更加嚴謹避免他們被對岸所利用做出對台灣不利的情勢所以這一個案子我凍結一千萬"},{"start":11579.093,"end":11586.077,"text":"102我提案然後動1000萬然後提書面報告使得動資接下來我們現在現在增加了主決議有第125到132案共有8案請議事人員摘要宣讀"},{"start":11607.779,"end":11635.256,"text":"第125案114年度國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會預算案第二幕退除役官兵就學執訓編列預算17397000元近年來在推動退除役官兵的就學和職業訓練輔導方面應持續關注其學習情況和訓練後的就業成果請退輔會與一個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王定宇等人"},{"start":11636.584,"end":11647.902,"text":"第126案（114年度國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會預算案與第二幕（退除役官兵救學執訓向下（退除役官兵救學輔導措施中業務費（編列預算140萬元才"},{"start":11652.128,"end":11670.255,"text":"查該項預算歷年堅維持不變（考量其歷年合作學校與輔導人數有別（顯見預算編列方式並未合理（允請國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會於2個月內（向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員黃仁等人第127案"},{"start":11673.666,"end":11688.563,"text":"平東榮民總醫院日前發生一名護理師與工作期間因性別認同導致身心狀況不佳。平東榮民總醫院事後卻僅表示﹐初步調查結果不是職場霸凌事件﹐可能為性別友善認知不足有關。"},{"start":11689.964,"end":11712.301,"text":"為建立友善公眾環境並強化職員心理輔導機制﹐請退輔會﹐督導所屬機構同仁每年接受性別平等教育﹐建構多元性別友善設施及支持性環境建立透明機制﹐完善職場申訴與資源系統﹐並於3個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告﹐提案人委員沈伯陽等人"},{"start":11713.041,"end":11723.093,"text":"第128案114年度國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會預算案與第6目榮民醫療照護向下醫事人力培訓與專業教育訓練編列預算6,425萬5千元近年來退輔會所屬醫療機構的全日護理人員"},{"start":11729.981,"end":11744.97,"text":"與病患比例都符合標準然而衛福部推行的各層級醫院山班戶病比政策相比仍有進步之空間原警退輔會與一個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王定宇等人"},{"start":11746.516,"end":11757.919,"text":"第129案（114年度國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會（預算案第6目（農民醫療照護向下醫事人力培訓與專業教育訓練中獎補助費（編列預算6166萬4千元（業務包括補助醫學系（公費生資承辦學校（教學用設備及補助公司利益"},{"start":11766.238,"end":11791.338,"text":"醫學院醫學系公費生培訓經費為考量偏鄉醫療人力缺乏期待醫學系公費生畢業後支援每一位醫學系公費生畢業後對偏鄉醫療都發揮極大的注意援請退輔會積極與各校協調務並盡量使受補助之每一位公費醫學生都能完成學業以投入偏鄉醫療服務提案人委員黃仁等人"},{"start":11792.947,"end":11821.781,"text":"第130案有鑒於近年度退輔會所屬訓練機構職技訓練雖頗有成效為對於花東及偏遠地區之退除役官兵予學習參加執訓之便利性仍不夠友善。原此建議退輔會應與國防部及教育部協調、溝通合作未來可將相關執訓或就學課程聯合招生與就近營區開放課程讓現役與退除役官兵共同學習達到全社會防衛任性之意義"},{"start":11822.461,"end":11843.27,"text":"提案委員（林立軍等人（第131案有鑒於明年114年為抗戰勝利（80週年是為御役聲援之重要時刻。建請國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會應緊急宣揚抗戰勝利（80週年精神與榮民節辦理相關系列活動並編制以抗戰為主之"},{"start":11844.028,"end":11859.253,"text":"主體專書刊物（彰顯榮民袍澤共同抵禦外武所創造之勝利（表達對榮民前輩的崇敬與感念提案人委員馬文君等人第132案（退府會與114年度預算擬編40億名偏鄉公費醫學生"},{"start":11866.465,"end":11894.998,"text":"留任獎補助金,顯與以前年度落差接近20%（該項獎補助計畫實質效益執行方式（或有改善空間考量交易縣復原廣大偏鄉地區（醫院因生活機能便利性不佳（影響醫師招募及留任意願（國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會與（積極爭取納入本計畫（補助範圍及補助名額（以利益斯羅治及留任（並維護民眾之就醫權益提案委員陳冠廷等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":11899,"end":11901.281,"text":"主決議103其說明第103案主決議提案委員為林楚瑩委員專事辦理文字修正通過104案主決議提案委員為林楚瑩委員專事辦理105案主決議提案委員羅美琳委員專事辦理"},{"start":11927.318,"end":11930.561,"text":"106.第106案主決議提案委員為羅美林委員,遵事辦理107."},{"start":11930.561,"end":11936.906,"text":"第107案主決議提案委員為王定宇召委,遵事辦理108."},{"start":11936.906,"end":11940.569,"text":"第108案主決議提案委員為王定宇召委,遵事辦理"},{"start":11947.901,"end":11948.301,"text":"暫通過109暫通過110暫通過111暫通過112暫通過112"},{"start":11977.898,"end":11984.224,"text":"113.113主決議提案委員為沈伯陽委員遵事辦理114.114主決議提案委員為沈伯陽委員遵事辦理115.115主決議提案委員為陳永康委員遵事辦理"},{"start":11997.612,"end":12008.937,"text":"116案主決議提案委員為陳冠廷委員遵事辦理117案主決議提案委員為陳冠廷委員遵事辦理118案主決議提案委員為陳冠廷委員遵事辦理119案主決議提案委員為黃仁委員遵事辦理120"},{"start":12026.291,"end":12045.537,"text":"第120案主決議提案委員為黃人委員遵勢辦理這案通過121121案主決議提案委員為黃人委員肯請卓修文字將執訓中心與辦理借退官兵就業輔導時可積極輔導修正為與職業中心辦理借退官兵就業輔導時可積極宣導報告完畢"},{"start":12055.407,"end":12057.809,"text":"文字修正通過122第122主決議提案委員為黃人委員遵事辦理。章案通過123第123案主決議提案委員為黃人委員遵事辦理。章案通過124124案主決議提案委員為黃人委員遵事辦理。"},{"start":12081.038,"end":12085.201,"text":"125.第125組決議案遵事辦理126.第126案組決議遵事辦理127.第127案組決議遵事辦理128.第128案組決議遵事辦理"},{"start":12109.377,"end":12117.08,"text":"第129 案 主決議 遵事辦理 照案通過130 案 主決議 遵事辦理 照案通過131 案 主決議 遵事辦理 照案通過132 案 主決議 遵事辦理"},{"start":12133.128,"end":12161.366,"text":"好,114年度中央政府總預算案關於國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主管收支部分．以審查完略重請財政委員會會診之後提報院會請問院會審議前是否需交由黨團協商?沒有好,那就不用院會審議時請推派一位委員做補充說明,請推派"},{"start":12168.825,"end":12174.333,"text":"本次預算審查如有預算科目物質或金額調整授權議事人員處理12月4日及5日兩日為一次會現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":12189.88,"end":12190.921,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":12219.525,"end":12219.593,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"157884","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157884","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d216230e0e337ffca57a99904554a4baaac773b3fa48179a30de3f5687b5b8c8e805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"11:22:48 - 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案件並不是一個新的議題。」"},{"start":175.974,"end":192.113,"text":"內清德委員就已經有提過了表示這個在台灣社會其實已經討論很久的東西那你們行政機關在這麼短的半年裡面你們的政策這麼反覆為什麼?"},{"start":194.129,"end":219.101,"text":"跟委員報告現在很關心那其實就是因為討論非常的久而且國民監察署也跟國際、國內相關的專家然後做相關的討論跟研議那也將相關的法條就是預告的版本做完預告那也是回應很多社會的期待還有立法委員當初有提一些版本還有公聽會的一些要求甚至於質詢當時謝前部長的"},{"start":222.122,"end":226.664,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿"},{"start":251.812,"end":272.065,"text":"那你為什麼12月初還說你們...因為那時候程序還沒有做完啊都還是在做程序啊目前我們的布板才決定而已啊所以就是也算很急就章的在這兩天決定"},{"start":274.131,"end":300.181,"text":"應該是這樣,跟委員說明一下,其實就是說我們當時把它設計進來的時候,其實是用專章的方式在處理。對,那如果說要把它切割下來的話,我們就把那個專章給剔除而已。那也就是說把專章剔除,然後你們把專章改成專法。未來再做研議,未來再做研議。那你還必須要研議多久?"},{"start":301.761,"end":329.029,"text":"這個還是要重啟,如果它是專法就要依法的程序重新走一次啊還要重新走一次那就是還要等你們我剛剛講了就是說這不是一個新的議題這是在台灣社會已經討論很久的問題甚至於在立法院2002年賴慶德委員就已經有"},{"start":330.66,"end":358.337,"text":"包括蕭美琴委員我看連署他們兩個都有就是從那時候開始討論我現在並不是說不能立專法只是說為什麼行政機關的速度會那麼慢慢到現在委員的版本一大堆然後大家等你們等你們也沒關係因為我個人的主張是這樣子就是要嘛就是一次"},{"start":359.434,"end":374.786,"text":"把這個問題一併做一個檢討,把立法完善的完成。我也想要問一下就是說你們預告收集了600多則的意見,署長覺得量體夠大嗎?"},{"start":382.858,"end":406.323,"text":"這是來反映在給我們的意見上面反映本身本來就是反對的會比較勇於表態這個第一點第二點我也不覺得600多則的數量夠我還是回到最初我覺得今天"},{"start":408.339,"end":431.136,"text":"大家都希望能夠保障每一個人的生育平等我想行政、立法部門沒有人反對而現在我講的是行政機關的立法速度包括署長你在對外發言的時候"},{"start":433.851,"end":458.007,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬"},{"start":459.568,"end":486.5,"text":"等專法進來一併做討論這樣子比較可以讓整個人工生殖的部分做一個完善的法制建構可是你們真的不能拖延太久我們就衝擊以法治"},{"start":488.752,"end":507.118,"text":"那這樣子的一個程序需要多久?他必須還是要做專家會議討論完了以後收集意見、預告等相關程序。那大概多久?這個流程要多久?這個流程當然會比較長。當然會比較長。署長假如說當然會比較長,那"},{"start":514.755,"end":527.023,"text":"那就比較麻煩啦,因為這麼多委員的提案版本,大家能不能等待你們那麼久?"},{"start":528.575,"end":557.546,"text":"台灣有一些不孕的人工生殖需求的民眾有沒有辦法等那麼久?這個都是一個問題。我們當然要盡快,那是法制還是要依程序來做?你們的盡快在速率上比起立法院真的慢很多。謝謝署長、謝謝主席、謝謝委員。"},{"start":560.959,"end":563.944,"text":"謝謝楊委員、謝謝署長。那接下來我們請陀前紀委員"}]}},{"id":"157877","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157877","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21ed1500fb0f57f995a99904554a4baaac773b3fa48179a30da6b46b472f9b5d055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:12:44 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日本有驗這個菌 然後就有判定出很多人是因為這樣的食物中毒所以他們最後不明原因比較少 因為他們驗的菌比較多其實就這麼簡單啊 署長就是這麼簡單啊因為你驗的菌少 所以你最後不明的原因多嘛那我們來看一下我們台灣這邊實際上的狀況 這個就是曲狀感菌 我現在跟你介紹啦 好不好"},{"start":263.529,"end":291.699,"text":"目前臺灣近幾年都沒有通報建樹不是說可以直接斷定說是因為不是被他們趕來所以我們根本沒驗那我們是驗什麼呢這就是我們平常驗的五大類金黃色葡萄球菌、仙人掌桿菌還有長岩胡菌、沙門柿桿菌以及病原性大腸桿菌我們就驗證這幾個除了驗這個之外都不驗不驗了最後就以不明原因結案我覺得還可以這樣子"},{"start":293.353,"end":306.384,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2"},{"start":308.291,"end":326.313,"text":"我記得當時我們那時候剛來立法院的時候以前還是陳建仁院長的時候那時候還排那個食安報告把自己的食安做講得多厲害結果我們對於食物中毒的檢驗粗糙成這個樣子部長你你因為你也是520之後才就任的啦跟你反映這個事情你覺得可以接受嗎"},{"start":327.674,"end":355.507,"text":"好,我想連日本都有這樣的一個檢查我們一定要謝謝委員的指教我想我們食藥署回去不是,你們不驗你們驗這麼少原因是什麼?是沒錢嗎?上一次米香菌酸的時候還沒有實驗室還沒有這個菌還是跟民間調的每一次都發生原因之後在那邊危機處理然後媒體報的大你們就重視媒體沒有報你們就當沒這回事那國人的健康你們置於何地啊?"},{"start":357.366,"end":377.587,"text":"能不能夠將這個不明原因減少,能不能?現在高達建樹高達快六成啦,訂一個目標好不好?今年訂一個目標?我想我們一定會努力,要看要數有沒有。不想,訂一個目標啦,訂一個目標。現在是,去年是進六成不明原因,你今年要降到多少?"},{"start":379.744,"end":393.396,"text":"我們十二、十四、十五、一、二、一、二、一、二、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、"},{"start":403.766,"end":432.327,"text":"好不好 沒有那麼誇張的 你定一個目標但你講一個五成 國人能夠接受嗎 大家可以接受說以後食物中毒有五成 我們是不知道原因 大家可以接受嗎所以官員講出這樣的話 我們要求食藥署至少要降到四成以下 第一個階段四成你就 那我們會做檢討的 我跟你講我的標準起碼要跟日本一樣啦 人家是一兩趴啦 你講一個四成"},{"start":433.027,"end":444.174,"text":"那當然你說你要從6%直接降到降到1%、2%你們可能覺得不敢講啦但你也要有一個至少目標要遠大一點嘛講個一層嘛一開始講五層後來講四層一層啦好不好目標啦"},{"start":449.335,"end":470.271,"text":"我們當然朝著向日本的目標來努力向日本的目標邁進最後最後那你們要努力自己定章法出來我現在告訴你你驗了菌少就是其中一個原因其他的原因你們自己去自己去然後再來那個最後問一下因為最近蘇丹紅的問題又起來了那那個昨天也有驗到越南的黑胡椒嘛裡面有蘇丹紅"},{"start":471.508,"end":493.056,"text":"一百六十公斤,郵箱六個縣市。這個是你們的表格。但我想問為什麼上一次辣椒粉蘇丹紅的時候你們有訂一個下流郵箱,有告訴全台灣的國人說哪些公司或哪些商品可能會有這些東西可以避免,可是這次就沒有。為什麼?而且上次有驗專區,這次也沒有,為什麼?"},{"start":494.397,"end":517.783,"text":"你們不能講說因為新聞有報我們就比較積極新聞沒報然後就當沒這回事吧做法應該一致啊報告委員因為我們這次其實是請各區現在還在幫我們追那個他的那個廠家其實現在各區的衛生局已經開始要求他們的回收這個我回收我知道蘇丹紅這個事情其實"},{"start":518.543,"end":546.624,"text":"拉椒粉蘇丹紅從越南進這一批不是拉椒粉啦黑胡椒啦已經一段時間了啦也不是昨天發生的已經一段時間了那上一次拉椒粉的時候專區也有啦然後流向都很清楚這一次就沒有啊那為什麼同樣是食安問題同樣是蘇丹紅上一次因為媒體有報所以很重視這一次因為媒體沒報所以就比較隨便嗎還是怎樣可不可以比照上一次啦把流向怎麼做出來在網站上給大家參考就這麼簡單嘛"},{"start":548.593,"end":551.881,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員第1次聯席會議：立法院第12屆第3會期社會福利及法制委員"},{"start":553.383,"end":581.304,"text":"報委員其實這次蘇丹紅的在胡椒粉其實大部分都已經回收那這一次最大的一個量的時候事實上他大概有超過一半我們都超過一半他是已經那時候是因為颱風他已經暴順了其他的量我們都在追其實第一個案子當我們現在只有15公斤左右的是自售他賣去其他的大概都回都已經回收下架或者銷毀了那這個160公斤呢有像六縣市的"},{"start":582.762,"end":584.483,"text":"對,所以是應該要提醒國人的啦。好不好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157889","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21ee66370512694fffa99904554a4baaac06b08ba57c1938fd50b48a977d456e315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"12:02:34 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«人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesley Chen等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesley Chen等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。נסley chen等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。נסley chen等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。נסley chen等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。נסley chen等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。נסley chen等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。נסley chen等19"},{"start":95.602,"end":113.942,"text":"在這屆立委選舉的時候,非常遺憾,我的對手邀請了前我們的衛生署長楊志良先生來站台。站台居然就做了這樣非常失言的發言,他說:「臺灣女人三十歲以後的母老嬰兒"},{"start":115.339,"end":136.843,"text":"五、委員吳思瑤等50人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬"},{"start":144.795,"end":159.43,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第3次聯席會議：立法院第4次聯席會議：立法院第5次聯席會議：立法院第6次聯席會議：立法院第7次聯席會議：立法院第8次聯席會議：立法院第9次聯席會議：立法院第10次聯席會議：立法院第11次聯席會議：立法院第12次聯席會議：立法院第13次聯席會議：立法院第14次聯席會議：立法院"},{"start":166.584,"end":179.142,"text":"我反對這種殺蚊殺豬主義而今天我們討論的代孕制度事實上它的本質就是很多的楊智良們"},{"start":181.138,"end":183.519,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":202.848,"end":223.38,"text":"能不能夠脫鉤我們更正向的確保人權,確保性別不受歧視,這是核心的議題啊。所以部長,楊志良應該跟您也是前好朋友啦,大家都在衛生福利界。你認為他說:「無生小孩就無好,無私養絕子絕孫。」你認同這樣的想法嗎?當然不認同。"},{"start":227.796,"end":244.268,"text":"那我想我也很抱歉我剛剛在司法法治委員會我也透過直播看到了很抱歉喔主席你說一句話我也聽起來很痛你說代理孕母的議題是女人跟女人的戰爭是這樣嗎?No one is outsider他涉及生命、涉及人權、涉及家庭"},{"start":257.17,"end":269.623,"text":"No one is outsider,請不要製造性別的對立。我反對這種退步的、這種落伍的、這種歧視的觀點。"},{"start":271.86,"end":292.174,"text":"在這種觀點之下我很遺憾我認為在討論今天人工生殖法的課題恐怕都沒有辦法回到正向的討論首先我要挑戰討論這個議案的核心的那個性別歧視性別意識不足的問題要被打破下一頁"},{"start":293.615,"end":316.783,"text":"民意反對代孕所以不宜倉促的立法。我以最新一次針對這個主題的民調是彩虹平權大平台他們對於人工生殖及代孕做了民調70.7%支持人工生殖適用於單身女性"},{"start":320.091,"end":346.35,"text":"61.4%支持人工生殖應當優先適用於女女同志之間高達50.4%不支持現在讓代孕上路而衛福部你們所做的公告之後收到了600多則的意見嘛對不對部長當中有多少是反對代孕的也有八成"},{"start":347.189,"end":356.821,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人"},{"start":360.392,"end":387.807,"text":"這週二,NGO召開了記者會,代孕侵害人權,停止代孕立法。NGO站出來,在今天我們審查人工生殖法的此時此刻,也有一群公民朋友在立法院周遭集結緊急的來呼籲,捍衛女性的人權,反對代孕,這是民意。下一頁。"},{"start":389.042,"end":397.007,"text":"所以民進黨團我們這週召開了我們共同倡議的記者會人工生殖跟代理孕母要脫鉤"},{"start":399.269,"end":406.952,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":426.241,"end":444.93,"text":"然後我也要求討論人工生殖法一定要有院版您同意我的三大立場嗎部長脫鉤專法或是兩階段立法以及要有院版我想我們現在的立場就是這樣子好很好在下一頁"},{"start":446.055,"end":459.37,"text":"我也要挑戰嚴肅的生命議題請不要成為不同意見者的對立我非常遺憾藍白的在野黨的委員們透過謾罵、透過恐嚇、透過情樂"},{"start":466.674,"end":478.907,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":479.648,"end":493.261,"text":"把這些爭取女性權益的夥伴們把他扭曲成為心理變態。這反而陳昭之委員如果要推人工生殖法可是很可惜正因為您這種非理性的胡亂的指涉反而讓這個議案的討論失焦了因為他製造了對立我覺得非常的可惜"},{"start":502.89,"end":524.04,"text":"同樣我們蘇委員身為醫師出身我也非常尊重您我是真的期待不應當因為黨團之間或是立委之間的立場不同您就說如果代孕不處理那人工生殖法會讓它繼續卡著我希望這是媒體報導的缺漏我希望它不是事實我最後來"},{"start":533.584,"end":535.71,"text":"很多問題應當要嚴肅討論,兒童的權益如何保障?"},{"start":539.827,"end":546.908,"text":"擬具 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正草案．20人擬具〉20人擬具〉20人擬具〉20人擬具〉20人擬具"},{"start":128.149,"end":132.151,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":156.264,"end":185.303,"text":"而這個議題呢相當的複雜而且當時社會沒有討論過民眾也不了解更荒謬的是議題裡面這樣問請問你讚不讚成針對某些特殊狀況在有相關配套和管理的條件下將代理孕母技術納入規範提供經過評估有特殊需要的民眾欸這個問題很好笑什麼叫有特殊情形那相關配套又是什麼有管理的條件是什麼"},{"start":186.664,"end":204.355,"text":"統統不知道然後將代理孕母技術納入規範規範是什麼不知道然後去問你說支不支持還有一個問題是這樣問的政府如果制定法律配套其實可以允許某些民眾在特定條件下和規範下委託他人代孕請問你比較贊成哪一種狀況"},{"start":205.977,"end":227.576,"text":"政府如果制定法律配套,配套內容是什麼?問卷內容不知道。然後允許民眾在特定條件下,特定條件是什麼?也沒有說清楚。通通都不清不楚,不明不白,條件沒有設定,然後就這樣去隨便亂問。然後得出來結論說這個叫做社會共識。這個是太荒謬了吧。所以我們今天在講"},{"start":229.458,"end":235.104,"text":"這一些問題不明確沒有定義然後強烈的誘導性所以調查的可信性不具備所以在這裡我們要講兩場公民共識會議還有電話民調時隔已久社會變遷大而且經過他國的代孕的經驗及新視角的加入社會已經有新的看法"},{"start":253.002,"end":259.464,"text":"擬具不具民意代表性的公民審議會議以及沒有可信度的電訪作為現在修法的討論基礎而聲稱代孕制度是國人共識是沒有說服力的更不要講賴總統23年前怎麼說這個是太荒謬的從年初衛福部的兩場公聽會還有預告人工生殖法修正草案後社會的反應來看今年最新的"},{"start":281.332,"end":297.137,"text":"公聽會各界的公聽會來看多數的意見都主張開放人工生殖法適用對象應與代理孕母脫鉤處理而且認為現在台灣社會根本不具有得以開放代孕的條件"},{"start":298.777,"end":323.949,"text":"還有二十年來社會的變遷這麼大不論支持或反對都需要先讓社會對這個議題有更多的理解而且要理性討論是否要有代孕制度而不是在共識不足的狀況裡面討論根本就沒有社會對話沒有足夠的社會討論下直接就進入由上而下透過少數幾個人的意志然後就"},{"start":326.59,"end":355.025,"text":"透過多數決然後進入這個馬上就完成立法這樣子是不行的部長你們到底是怎麼態度啊我們當然是專業跟開放然後站在人民的健康開放什麼啦開放什麼開放代理孕母嗎不是我是說開放的態度來接收大家的信息現在你們接受到的態度是什麼啊接受的態度就是因為"},{"start":355.985,"end":381.156,"text":"在前面兩個主題那個共識度高所以我們建議這兩個來先行讓社會更多人照顧社會更多的人前面的兩個主題是什麼是那個單身女性還有那個同性女同性那那個至於代理孕母因為他的爭議分歧真的太大那我剛剛講公民會議和電話民調的可信度呢你覺得呢"},{"start":383.383,"end":396.217,"text":"因為陳昭芝委員一直以20個人參加,她自己打臉當時的公民審議會議的共識。我們再來看一下,我早上念過嘛,這個是什麼時候的報紙。"},{"start":397.678,"end":420.09,"text":"九十三年八月二十五號的禮拜三的報紙中國時報第一遭代理育母公民預備會議二十個人代表確定沒錯二十個人當時陳昭之委員怎麼講二十個人的結論難抵立院民意認為我把它講了那個報導內容最右邊的內容唸一次給大家看"},{"start":421.451,"end":438.48,"text":"文中提到,爭取代理孕母合法化的和信醫院藥劑科主任陳昭智認為,公民共識會議的20個人根本不具公民代表性。他指出,藥品臨床試驗如果找20個人來做實驗,一定不能代表母體。"},{"start":440.12,"end":449.443,"text":"檢驗結果只能以個案認定,自然科學都有這一類的限制了。稍微科學的範圍更廣泛,20個人怎麼能夠代表台灣公民的意見呢?他說,就台灣2300萬的人口來說,20個人實在是太少了。要說這些人的意見是公民共識,科學基礎上站不住腳,不足以說服大眾。"},{"start":465.167,"end":476.372,"text":"維生署如果以20個人討論結果為政策依據,將來出爐的草案怎麼在立法院說服看法不同的立委呢?我就是要用他的話來告訴陳委員。你當時所認為沒有代表性的公民共識會議,今天"},{"start":484.196,"end":496.386,"text":"你卓飛金氏今天動不動就把這個沒有代表性的你口中所聲稱的沒有代表性的公民會議拿出來當你支撐的理由和所謂的有共識欸2004、2012都只有20個人參加了欸這個叫做有社會共識嗎結果陳委員現在是公民會議的這個還有這個民調結果為推動立法的規念"},{"start":511.618,"end":516.761,"text":"我們真的覺得這樣薄弱的支撐來講說有社會共識 這個絕對不是事實好 那我接下來講說剛才很多委員就講說我們不要商業化的出租子宮 我們要利他的利他代孕生小孩 利他代孕啦終究只是一個掩蓋工具化女性的騙局啦"},{"start":541.638,"end":547.58,"text":"我舉一個台大法律系陳昭儒教授的講法。我們可以這個真實世界每個人所擁有的資本跟籌碼都不一樣。你願意幫人家代孕的同意經常是在不平等的狀況下給出去的。"},{"start":570.117,"end":570.558,"text":"有人說陳委員一直講求子是他的夢想是人性"},{"start":575.902,"end":597.097,"text":"但是呢,你有沒有想過道德上並不是你有需求就要被滿足這個是陳昭如這個教授講的即便是近年盛行的生育權的論述也不見得能推導出代孕合法這常被類比的就是器官買賣我們不會認為為了保障一個人的生命權"},{"start":601.94,"end":605.902,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。נס"},{"start":610.987,"end":613.449,"text":"此風一開,代孕合法化了以後,大家都知道都是有錢人要去買經濟弱勢人的子宮來出租出借。"},{"start":633.448,"end":642.593,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由�"},{"start":660.763,"end":662.404,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":699.985,"end":712.528,"text":"在代孕的過程,代孕者他的家人、他的家庭、先生、小孩、父母、公婆都要一起投入。他的生活都深受影響,而他的雇主、他的同事都要配合他的懷孕及生產而調整作業。"},{"start":714.728,"end":737.718,"text":"所以它不是只有出租、子宮、個人的付出家庭、職場都是代孕的一環在集體的付出都沒有被看到第二個最重要的代孕絕對是健康風險的轉嫁你不可以簡化成只是代理生一個小孩根據台女聯所供應的資料來看"},{"start":738.758,"end":741.961,"text":"大運是人工生殖技術的進行但是這種技術35歲以下的活產率大概是35%所以代理孕母平均要經過2.5到3次的懷孕週期才能成功要試驗這麼多次"},{"start":763.298,"end":783.01,"text":"對身心健康有很大的影響而懷孕到生產都有一定的風險在台灣認成性的糖尿病發生率17%認成性的高血壓發生率10%還有子顛前症產後大出血、羊水酸篩、剖腹產子宮切除胎兒新生兒產婦死亡"},{"start":784.491,"end":797.037,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次"},{"start":811.343,"end":825.973,"text":"所以代孕不是替人家懷孕生殖而已而是承接了委託者在懷孕生產中的所有風險甚至是死亡的可能性。部長你有掌握這樣的數據嗎?包委員我沒有掌握到這麼詳細的一個數據,非常敬佩。你聽了以後你覺得做何感想?"},{"start":839.696,"end":855.791,"text":"所以還在那裡講只能利他為了反對商業化只能利他還要壓低人家的價格事實上本質上這是健康風險的轉嫁除了少數真的是為了親朋好友願意付出以外其實現在都是經濟優勢的強要人家經濟弱勢者的子宮出借"},{"start":863.505,"end":869.347,"text":"等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":891.003,"end":892.946,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":906.348,"end":910.79,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":926.056,"end":946.973,"text":"所謂的利他代孕事實上是代理孕母全部身心和生活的投入和長期的付出又有難以避免的風險還要事後身體健康的所有代價因此決定要代孕的人多為有經濟壓力的弱勢對於弱勢者的高度付出給予最低的費用"},{"start":948.396,"end":968.165,"text":"只有那你們自己定義的必要的費用,這個就是剝削。利他代孕本質就是一個掩蓋工具化女性的騙局。我們不要再回過頭來,代孕生小孩不是生理自主權的展現,他是傷害生理自主權。我們剛剛講了啊,"},{"start":970.746,"end":985.255,"text":"在民主的社會身體的自主我的身體我自己決定那你可以說我要販賣我自己自願當奴隸民主社會可以允許嗎這個自願所謂自願背後通常代表的是貧窮啊我們不會允許是因為他踐踏了人性的尊嚴所以我們剛剛講說活體器官的捐贈法律也不允許啊如果你允許開放了多少人想要自願捐肝啊"},{"start":1000.339,"end":1015.29,"text":"但是我們知道活體捐肝很多都是要當時我們認為不可以五等親以外不可以是因為防止藉著善心自願之名請買賣之時的剝削所以我們這樣把它禁掉了在這種狀況裡面我們其實是還開放五等親五親等是為了成全病患求生的需求"},{"start":1028.28,"end":1036.089,"text":"檢過了相當程度是個人的意願和選擇和病患的求生的需求是為了救人而不得不"},{"start":1037.788,"end":1064.444,"text":"所以現在有些人用身體自主權來合理化代理孕母時我們都覺得說你是在說什麼?真的有人願意嗎?除了至親最愛為了那個少數的生理缺陷的真的有我相信有但是開放了以後大多數大多數都不是大多數都不是更不要講我最後講代理孕母是父權文化壓迫女性的產物"},{"start":1065.745,"end":1093.735,"text":"剛剛有委員說我領養了一個但是我還是要生一個完成我的夢想我追求的夢想你只想到你自己的夢想你有沒有想到被你生出來的小孩你滿足了個人想要自己血清的孩子的願望但是你讓代理孕母付出巨大的代價侵犯人的尊嚴和完整性衝擊社會的價值而且為社會製造了更多的問題"},{"start":1094.995,"end":1106.019,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第3次聯席會議：立法院第4次聯席會議：立法院第5次聯席會議：立法院第6次聯席會議：立法院第7次聯席會議：立法院第8次聯席會議：立法院第9次聯席會議：立法院第10次聯席會議：立法院第11次聯席會議：立法院第12次聯席會議：立法院第13次聯席會議：立法院第14次聯席會議：立法院"},{"start":1121.084,"end":1138.387,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":1138.547,"end":1157.376,"text":"其實版本也不用念了,因為等行政院院版的話,版本其實也不用進行。我們今天是應該詢答,大家討論,然後就結束。等到院版進來,我們再主條,然後當時再來宣讀版本,不是更完備嗎?所以在這裡建議一下主席,拜託主席,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157885","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157885","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d215981951a6d77790ca99904554a4baaac773b3fa48179a30d30a324e446e41dda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:32:19 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案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草"},{"start":101.178,"end":103.32,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":121.291,"end":144.538,"text":"報告委員,其實你是比較國民黨、民眾黨還有衛福部,如果能夠把民進黨也列進去,你會發現是差不多平衡,就是有不同的,我們有列表。你自己認為應不應該納入?我覺得有時候修法、立法沒有那麼一定是,"},{"start":145.658,"end":149.88,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案 》案。"},{"start":164.96,"end":179.973,"text":"我覺得如果能夠得到社會大家的共識的事情我雖然有我專業的一個立場但是也要考慮到整個可是我記得好像之前你們都是支持的對不對"},{"start":180.894,"end":198.87,"text":"我支持討論,但是到最後沒有透視這種話。那你對於人工生殖法納入代孕,你自己的態度,我很想了解,當然你衛福部有衛福部的立場,那你自己的態度到底是支持還是不支持,我看你好像也是……我想我個人的態度真的不重要,最重要的是大家團體,各個專業團體、民團,"},{"start":202.293,"end":206.315,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":226.184,"end":230.671,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":238.41,"end":260.829,"text":"對於這部分的立場應該不要太模糊我覺得應該是我們對於人工生殖法應該是要更進步要去解決我們這些代孕這些的問題而不是立場模糊一直搖擺不定那這樣子我們人工生殖法這部分怎麼可能會更進步而且針對人工生殖法草案"},{"start":262.751,"end":280.965,"text":"說實在的話我們一直也沒有看到衛福部自己草案也沒有看到我們衛福部的版本那我們總統有召開這個健康台灣推動委員會不知道有沒有討論到針對這個人工生殖法代孕這個相關的議題報告委員會"},{"start":285.709,"end":287.53,"text":"在過去的討論當中沒有討論到這個都沒有討論到這個"},{"start":304.734,"end":332.177,"text":"其實據我們來瞭解剛剛會聽到很多委員有提起尤其有上一個楊耀委員他也有講針對其實我們的賴清德總統他在擔任立委的時候他自己也在91年有提案把人工生殖法條文內涵蓋代孕而且他也提到傳統倫理必須透過立法將這些行為逐步規範而且勢在必行"},{"start":332.918,"end":341.152,"text":"並且這些連署人包含了蕭美琴、包含了我們現任的高雄市長陳其邁。所以其實他們都是認同的啊。"},{"start":343.854,"end":369.341,"text":"而且賴總統在擔任立委的時候他自己也說領養小孩愈來愈少而且領養別人的小孩是極為困難的事情所以照這樣來講人工生殖法修法把代孕納入我覺得也是共識啊也是我們總統的共識也是副總統的共識我看很多之前很多民進黨立委擔任的時候都認為應該納入那為什麼現在"},{"start":372.717,"end":378.359,"text":"覺得這個部分會民進黨部分還有衛福部會覺得不應該納入而且要脫鉤。所以他認為納入是對的啊。"},{"start":395.166,"end":399.409,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":425.386,"end":426.607,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":440.359,"end":456.061,"text":"這一部分我覺得大家針對這一部分代孕制度納入與否並不是我們現在討論的重點而是代孕的存在好像大家認為說不應以商業盈利為目的是不是今天針對這一部分才是這個重點"},{"start":458.147,"end":477.7,"text":"這當然是一個很重要的是一個論點所以是不是我們應該更應該好好去討論要定出一個辦法把這些問題一一來去解決而不是去逃避問題而不是去卸責啊謝謝委員指教齁我想我們沒有卸責啦齁那就是讓"},{"start":479.904,"end":499.019,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文�"},{"start":503.783,"end":518.398,"text":"之前一直大家都有一個共識都認為這代孕制度會納入結果後來突然又來一個大轉彎然後又把它脫鉤又說要立一個專法其實大家都認為說這專法遙遙無期啊我也聽到很多委員講他這個問題大家討論很久"},{"start":521.661,"end":550.088,"text":"那現在又說要專法基本上他認為在他這個任內根本就不可能討論到那根本就是在逃避責任啊所以是不是應該面對問題好好的針對這個問題來討論不要再有模糊地帶針對大家的需求應該一一的來解決把這個法案要怎麼去定怎麼去修怎麼樣子讓它做得更完善才是重點應該是面對問題而不是想辦法把它脫鉤先把它推掉到時候再說"},{"start":552.339,"end":568.821,"text":"謝謝委的指教,我們絕對沒有推掉責任,只要任何一個人民需要的都是我們衛福部以及政府所關心的,但是他要考慮他的一個還有是不是還有更要處理的更周全,那這件可能"},{"start":569.4,"end":580.167,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分"},{"start":598.86,"end":617.772,"text":"所以我們今天要討論這問題就是要解決他們的問題所以希望我們衛福部主管單位要面對問題不是把它脫鉤就卸責專法到時候再說遙遙無期今天大家都認為說已經好不容易有一個共識結果突然有一個急轉彎一個大轉彎這前面討論的都白討論希望部長我們來深思好好怎麼樣解決這些"},{"start":623.776,"end":643.016,"text":"先天後天不孕無法生育的這個群體,請部長多幫忙。是的,我們跟委員一樣非常關心,而且會想辦法來幫忙。好,希望我們部長、衛福部我們真的要面對這個問題來解決。是的,好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝土偉、謝謝部長。接著我們請林淑雯委員。"}]}},{"id":"16346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16346","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4d2bbad01105bb9c90a0be61fea14818a82e37f9ba35fd778423b8115275d7e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-05T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T18:08:00+08:00","duration":34650,"影片長度":"09:37:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":2052.657,"end":2053.137,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2070.607,"end":2087.844,"text":"新年還要追加一千三百億總共追加三千八百多億對老公好我們沒有意見我們也贊成但是為什麼要獨獨的追殺軍公教警校現在也被砍了兩千六百多億六年來平均一年四百多億要殺你了啦再加上現在來講退職的"},{"start":2095.509,"end":2104.055,"text":"公教錦銷不能夠跟現役的現職的一起的調整薪水也就是說我們政府有加薪軍公教人員加薪這些退職人員RR大夫沒有加薪要看我們高興的給他一丁高興的給他一丁不高興的一丁都不給"},{"start":2117.369,"end":2119.15,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2147.728,"end":2151.209,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":2177.052,"end":2180.554,"text":"這裏面民進黨執政占了17年今年17年國民黨只有執政8年了軍公教難道不是大家的子民嗎軍公教一定是民進黨要要除之而後快的一群嗎"},{"start":2195.452,"end":2197.754,"text":"為什麼對勞保可以這麼貼心一補再補三補四補這個我們也不會反對政府有錢啦GDP當年都說多少賺多少賺這樣一定是一定四趴幾趴全民共享啦"},{"start":2214.482,"end":2215.502,"text":"全民共享馬為什麼要獨獨的要殺軍公教特別是公教警校我再強調一遍過去這幾年來年該已經被殺掉了兩千六百多億可以了啦CPI"},{"start":2232.844,"end":2244.331,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":2262.924,"end":2266.048,"text":"行政部門要居然人民說NO就是NO今天來講我們換屆為什麼法案就要停止重新來因為最新民意我們體會最新民意我們是最新民意我們提出來"},{"start":2279.546,"end":2286.928,"text":"我們希望政府三代軍公教錦霄這一類人這一類人也是中華民國的子民也是臺灣的子民他不是棄子啊他不是棄民他還不是棄子不是棄女我最後真的在強調很痛心的強調我們的觀點就是不能改不能改只是因為那是那參議員提出的不能改現在改纏換代了"},{"start":2308.206,"end":2313.69,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智�"},{"start":2329.702,"end":2330.403,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案例"},{"start":2355.383,"end":2365.21,"text":"我們要撥亂緩正我們要撥亂緩正我們訴求很簡單勞保不改昨天勞動部長一直強調勞保絕對不會改不會再減那就跳票了我們的年應該是這樣加勞保軍工加勞保一起改現在勞保連一塊錢不會算加上已經給了到現在包括明年給了3800多億"},{"start":2384.121,"end":2390.384,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第13條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第13條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第14條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":2410.533,"end":2426.931,"text":"應該對於公教退休撫卹的辦法stop here停在這裡過去我們就不追究了就停在這裡那麼老保繼續補他我們也贊成這是我的訴求謝謝"},{"start":2432.967,"end":2455.567,"text":"那下一位我這邊先宣告一下就是因為今天登記發言的人非常多那是不是要麻煩大家注意一下發言的時間盡可能能在那個那個發言限制的時間內完成因為我剛剛看了一下今天已經到五十幾位登記發言了所以時間會非常久好那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2465.442,"end":2488.128,"text":"主席在座的各位委員各位媒體各位先生女士大家好那麼剛剛講到這個軍公教年改法案再次改革本席這裡與羅志強委員我們有共同提案所以我順便也講一下我的看法那麼軍公教年改就是一個錯誤的政策"},{"start":2489.468,"end":2517.417,"text":"錯誤的政策就要及時的停止而不應該讓這樣的錯誤的政策繼續延續下去軍公教年改不是不可以但是他要考慮到法律的安定性考慮到這個現在的這個已經退休或者是他已經期待要退休的人的權益的保障而法律呢應該是不溯及既往要考慮到當事人的信賴保護可是在這次的法案裡面"},{"start":2518.197,"end":2531.233,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":2533.576,"end":2537.6,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":2549.471,"end":2557.416,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":2576.447,"end":2592.197,"text":"國家說他財源不佳就可以任意去砍軍公教的退職金這是極不合理的事情所以本席在這裡也認為說這次的改革法案是非常的有必要另外我有提出來另外一個"},{"start":2593.418,"end":2604.914,"text":"公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":2608.719,"end":2625.31,"text":"應該要起個帶頭的作用去營造良好的環境積極的鼓勵生育所以除了現行的育嬰假之外本席也參考國外的一些做法認為可以推出祖父母也可以申請留職停薪的育孫假的政策希望能夠減輕家庭的育兒負擔增加公務人員的生育意願因為我們目前是在公務人員的留職停薪辦法裡面"},{"start":2636.718,"end":2640.439,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":2657.205,"end":2684.953,"text":"那我這裡所提出的預算價主要的目的呢是希望能夠將現行的辦法再往上提升他的法律變成是法律就是提升他的法律位階那麼所以就修改公務人員任用法第28條之一那也懇請所有的委員能夠支持除了育嬰家之外我們應該也要有預算價謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請張家俊委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2700.823,"end":2722.849,"text":"主席各位委員我想今天我們共同在這裡要討論的就是公務人員退休資遣撫卹法修法的必要性那雖然這個法已經實行了6年但改革過程中所引發的爭議跟不公我想值得我們停下腳步重新檢視當年有許多的公務人員選擇進入公職"},{"start":2727.811,"end":2747.482,"text":"稍為國家的承諾穩定與保障他們為國家奉獻了這個青春盡心效力期待在退休後能夠獲得應有的生活照顧然而年金改革的內容卻背離了信賴保護原則甚至觸及法律不溯及既往的基本原則"},{"start":2748.983,"end":2769.865,"text":"導致許多退休的公務人員輪為軍貧族甚至有三分之一可能陷入貧困老人的處境國家違反承諾的行為不僅傷害了這些長期奉獻者的信任更對國家整體的信用基石造成了嚴重的損害"},{"start":2771.306,"end":2787.057,"text":"那當時的考試委員周玉珊、周智隆和季鵬等多位專家都公開表示憂慮為了這個年金改革過於猛烈那全訓部將35年年資作為所得替代率"},{"start":2788.277,"end":2810.382,"text":"基準點並逐年下降的設計無疑是一刀切激進的做法完全忽略了退休公務人員的基本需求與實際生活壓力那如今現實也證明了這些憂慮的正確性那行政院主席總處今年發布的高齡家庭消費者物價指數數據高齡家"},{"start":2813.083,"end":2816.144,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":2841.59,"end":2863.285,"text":"年改政策實施到現在已經六年了正是一個需要重新檢討的時刻那當時這個改革的時候抱持著很多對公務人員的敵視心態那這一次本席所提出的修法版本就是主張立即停止所得替代率逐年下降的設計同時刪除至民國113年起逐年下降"},{"start":2869.87,"end":2877.795,"text":"所得替代率的相關規定。那民進黨當時的版本所得替代率是每年下降1.5%最終要減少15%那目前其實已經下降了6%我的提案並非說要推翻所有的改革而是將現況固定下來"},{"start":2891.243,"end":2896.808,"text":"沒有要走回頭路而是要避免進一步的傷害在場的民進黨委員們不知道你們還記不記得2019年賴總統在民進黨總統初選的時候曾公開表示如果有機會擔任總統"},{"start":2907.938,"end":2932.49,"text":"年金改革的方向可以微調那今天他已經如願當選總統這個承諾正是可以兌現的時候那如果現在不改革到底什麼時候才要要拖延到什麼時候呢那現在保護原則是憲政精神的一部分因此呢改革的過程必須符合正義國家的承諾必須被堅守過去呢"},{"start":2934.611,"end":2954.338,"text":"措及既往的改革設計不但違反了這個法制原則試問更未來有多少人還會願意投身公職以青春奉獻國家呢所以這不僅僅是退休人員的問題更是未來國家發展重要的警訊因此本席再一次強調公務人員退休"},{"start":2958.139,"end":2981.887,"text":"資遣撫卹法的修正迫在眉睫這不是向過去的退讓而是對未來的負責希望各位委員能夠共同支持本席修法提案的這個修法為公務人員對退休的公務人員生活保障注入更多的穩定性跟公正性讓我們國家再次贏得人民的信任謝謝"},{"start":2985.052,"end":2988.994,"text":"謝謝,那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行提案說明今天公祭,明天旺祭每當我們看到有我們錦霄等危險勤務人員"},{"start":3010.319,"end":3039.426,"text":"他們在保護我們人民的生命安全的時候犧牲了生命受了重傷你就會看到官員政治人物帶著悲淒然後告訴你說我們會嚴加的來檢討來去改善今天我們警消危險勤務人員的待遇增加他們的裝備但是抱歉"},{"start":3041.519,"end":3065.819,"text":"左手左邊喊著今天要照顧錦霄但是當說要提高我們錦霄等危險勤務人員的退休待遇的時候他就跟你講 不行你們不值得我們政府的錢不想花在這個地方這就今天執政者的雙面臉孔民國94年11月9日"},{"start":3072.418,"end":3098.286,"text":"民國96年1月2日內政部警政署將勤務業務並同人員移撥到空中勤務總隊移民署等單位但他勤務的工作跟性質依舊跟警察海巡消防等人員相同需要24小時輪替扶勤同屬危牢職務"},{"start":3100.373,"end":3126.519,"text":"為了要保障警察海巡消防空勤以及移民署人員的權利同時激勵士氣我認為要參考警察消防海巡移民空勤人員及協助協情民力安全基金設置管理辦法以及警察消防海巡移民空勤人員醫療照護實施方案的設置精神"},{"start":3128.015,"end":3145.757,"text":"照顧現職跟退休警察消防海巡移民空勤總隊的人員以及他們因公死亡的人員的遺卷才能彰顯政府對這些人員的感謝跟保障所以"},{"start":3146.718,"end":3167.216,"text":"原來將原來警政署一波空勤總隊移民署的勤務人員因為他跟警察海巡消防所執行的勤務都是全序部認定屬於高度圍牢勤務應該跟國軍也享有相仿的人士跟退休保障我們要知道"},{"start":3168.223,"end":3189.885,"text":"根據內政部警政署的統計各位知道嗎?警消平均的死亡年齡是75歲跟國人平均的壽命81歲相比差距6年之多就算是把限縮到退休後死亡的年齡78歲也相差約3年所以我要特別強調"},{"start":3191.326,"end":3208.436,"text":"今天請我們的執政者對於這些危險勤務人員的感謝不要只是嘴巴說而已拜託在今天真正用行動來感謝捍衛人民安全的這些警消等危險勤務人員謝謝謝謝那我們現在為請黃建斌委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3224.962,"end":3243.832,"text":"謝謝主席。我想建議我們現行公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的規定已經大幅的減少依法審定年金之所得替代率而且連續十年內每年再減少1.5%的所得替代率更規定我們年金不再隨著在職人員薪資來調整"},{"start":3246.053,"end":3259.696,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":3272.458,"end":3301.48,"text":"善待他。同時讓有心加入公務人員考試的這群人相信我們這個國家未來會照顧自己。受到所述的意見我們擬具了公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案。我想將年金重新隨同在職人員的心奉調整並且停止所得替代率逐年降低。在這邊也懇請所有的委員能夠來支持這個提案。謝謝。"},{"start":3307.951,"end":3312.819,"text":"下一位請國民黨團代表林思明委員進行提案說明。"},{"start":3322.399,"end":3339.083,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們公務人員退休資遣撫卹法在107年7月1號施行其中第37條規定以退休公務人員之年金所得替代率最高75%最低45%而且自109年1月1號起每年再減少1.5%"},{"start":3345.504,"end":3360.815,"text":"逐年連續減少十年,直到所得替代率變為最高百分之六十,最低百分之三十。更規定年金至一百零七年的七月要起與在職人員的薪資脫鉤來調整。"},{"start":3364.478,"end":3379.794,"text":"這種臨時式的改革對為國家辛勤終生的公務人員實在是一種羞辱我們國家建立公務人員的退休撫卹制度它的要旨就是在維持我們退休公務人員"},{"start":3380.515,"end":3407.842,"text":"往年的基本生活善盡國家照顧我們年老的為國家一生奉獻的這些公務人員的生活也是國家的一個義務但是我們看到近年來物價指數不當的飆漲我們也知道老年後對醫療長照的費用也會更加增多會有更多的支出所以我們對於退休高齡者的影響可以說是日趨嚴重"},{"start":3409.431,"end":3432.659,"text":"公務人員一生為國家任勞任怨奉獻終身,維繫他們退休後的基本生活品質實在是有他的必要。因此國民黨團我們提案修正我們這一次的公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第37條將年金重新隨同在職人員的薪俸來做調整。"},{"start":3434.299,"end":3459.308,"text":"並自一百一十三年起停止所有所得替代力的逐年降低來保障我們退休公務人員的權益我們敬請各位委員支持本黨修法的提案以維護我們所有的退休公務人員退休後的生活能夠獲得穩定的保障以上謝謝好謝謝現在我們請張智倫委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3474.653,"end":3501.979,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早主席各位同仁有鑒於公務人員退休撫卹條之前撫卹條例自一百零七年一月一號實行其中第三十七條規定以退休人員的年金所得替代率大砍百分之十五最高百分之七十五最低百分之四十五且一百零九年一月一號起每年還要再減少一點五連續減少十年直到所得替代率"},{"start":3503.379,"end":3529.509,"text":"最高60%,最低30%。而且又規定年金自107年7月1日起與在職人員的薪俸調整脫鉤也就是說退休人員所領的退休金不再隨在職人員的條薪額同步調整導致退休金被雙重削減以及最近各項民生物資節節上漲"},{"start":3531.21,"end":3553.911,"text":"通貨膨脹的結果導致退休金的實質購買率下降在層層剝削下恐使退休人員的晚年生活堪慮國家未盡照顧退休人員晚年生活的義務忽視信賴保護原則甚至進一步引發嚴重的社會問題以上種種都有待修法討論改善"},{"start":3555.532,"end":3567.377,"text":"因此本席擬具公務人員退休撫卹法第三條第八條及第37條條文修正草案已撫明虛。敬請各位同仁支持本席提案。謝謝。現在我們請黃建豪委員進行提案說明。"},{"start":3590.219,"end":3616.642,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員我想近年來物價通膨非常嚴重基本工資近年來調整百分之四以上現值軍工教條性百分之四那國民年金也調整超過百分之七顯示說這個物價波動對國人生活的影響非常非常的重大那想過去呢這個在調漲的這部分唯獨缺了退休軍工教人員但是我們要強調一件事情現代的物價波動"},{"start":3617.623,"end":3645.424,"text":"不是這些退休軍公教人員造成的政府理論上要照顧的話應該照顧全民退休軍公教人員理論上也包含在所謂全民的範圍之內所以本期這次提出的是公務人員退休之前撫卹法的第六十七條的修正草案是修訂中央主計機關發布如果消費者物價指數累計成長率達到正負百分之五的時候應該在發布日起三月內予以調整認為把這個"},{"start":3646.865,"end":3668.824,"text":"條整變成法定的條件而不是由行政院或考試院自己來決定要不要調整我想物價指數上漲5%對我們所有在座所有人在內的生活一定會造成重大的衝擊所以說如果調漲5%但是軍工教人員的他們已經沒有其他的謀生能力的情況下面他退休金還是持續往下降的話"},{"start":3669.985,"end":3689.023,"text":"會對這些退休人士對我們所謂的這些國民生活造成很大很大的影響所以本席這日提出六十七條修正就是希望能夠補齊這一塊我們希望政府在照顧全民的時候不應該獨漏退休軍工教育委員所以本次修法也希望所有委員能夠支持本席這次的修法以上謝謝接下來請徐議貞委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3702.326,"end":3727.34,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位同仁大家好當我們回顧台灣的這個發展歷史公務人員的貢獻無可抹滅他們是國家政策的執行者同時也是推動十大建設建設高速公路以及打造護國神山的重要角色他們的一生都奉獻給了國家卻在年華老去的時候面臨生活的壓力這不讓我們反思是否國家兌現了承諾呢"},{"start":3729.962,"end":3746.756,"text":"從2018年年改以來現在的公務人員退伏法第三十七條及第六十七條的規定讓退休軍公教人員的生活越發困難替代類於逐年遞減跟限職人員的調整掛鉤再加上消費者物價指數累積成長達5%才能夠調整退休所得的高門檻使得他們難以應對生活成本的攀升"},{"start":3755.023,"end":3777.231,"text":"近年來物價飛漲通膨平破2%的警戒線這些曾經為國家努力的英雄卻在晚年因政策僵化而無法獲得他們應有的保障甚至被貼上米蟲的污名令人痛心本席提出修法是希望為他們找回公平與尊嚴修正第37條將退休所得隨同在職"},{"start":3781.833,"end":3794.524,"text":"人員的薪資調整重新掛鉤並停止逐年下降所得替代率的規定。收政第67條將交費者物價指數累積正成長的調整門檻從5%降成2%並規定至少每兩年檢討一次。這些修正更能有效地反映經濟現實減輕退休軍工教人員的生活壓力也展現國家對他們的承諾與關懷。"},{"start":3809.717,"end":3829.651,"text":"或許有人會質疑財政壓力但我們必須認識到退休軍工教人員不僅是歷史的見證者更是國家成就的建設者他們的付出不能被忽視他們的權益應該被珍惜如果國家不能善待這些曾經的奉獻者將如何吸引下一代人投入公務體系"},{"start":3830.612,"end":3857.406,"text":"如何維護國家長久的穩定發展?」這次的修法是替政府守住過去的承諾我們希望透過這次的修法告訴每一位曾經為台灣付出的公務人員你們的努力國家沒有忘記你們的貢獻值得會回報所以在這邊也希望我們所有的委員大家能夠支持我的提案讓每一位公務人員都能在國家的庇護下擁有一個無憂的晚年謝謝"},{"start":3860.326,"end":3863.747,"text":"副副長副長副長"},{"start":3890.717,"end":3911.047,"text":"主席各位委員大家早我想部裡面針對這一次的提案有提交一份完整的書面報告不過也提交一個更簡單的這個簡要版的一個口頭說明那我想我就簡單就這個簡要版的口頭說明跟大家做報告我想這整個退休制度改革從開始建立以來84年開始建立以來其實就碰到一些財務上的問題所以過去從"},{"start":3914.409,"end":3915.93,"text":"撫卹法第九十五條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3930.18,"end":3934.322,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":3948.929,"end":3976.419,"text":"所以過去這幾年總共役注了這個基金2774億然後再加上退服新制完以後這新制以後又撥補了294億那造成我們財務的一個狀況年度的收支比從本來失衡到去年112年已經變成是有平衡了98.6%那接下來因此我們基金可以投資的淨值從107年的5600億左右增加到去年大概一兆"},{"start":3977.479,"end":4004.329,"text":"投資報酬率也因此差不多到7點多%所以也造成我們財務我們現在雖然是2.9兆的未償還負債可是因為估算這些財政投資基金的一個更多的資金進來以後我們會讓五十年裡面的財務缺口降到1.8兆我想這是先跟各位委員做說明至於這一次很多委員提案的這個主要修正大概有六個主要的主題"},{"start":4005.129,"end":4005.529,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":4023.499,"end":4028.961,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":4050.23,"end":4056.953,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":4078.36,"end":4079.461,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4097.358,"end":4110.773,"text":"四點五八萬也比較高那比勞保跟勞退加起來錢也比較高所以如果再停止調降其實這個我想這個數字應該會更高那第二個修法的一個方式希望恢復為跟"},{"start":4112.283,"end":4135.135,"text":"限職人員待遇調整做聯動。當初修法的意義,其實這是符合國際的一個潮流,因為所有的退休金,退休人員的退休金在全世界都是跟著CPI來做考量的一個聯動,不是跟限職人員。目前把它入法進去以後,現在已經入法了,所以它對退休人員來講絕對有保障,雖然現在是正負5%,"},{"start":4136.215,"end":4146.621,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條條文修正草案 案例第十五條條"},{"start":4165.936,"end":4166.076,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":4190.319,"end":4211.64,"text":"那我想其他的一些建議的主題我想就請各位參考那最後因為年金改革當初107年是透過一個社會共識的一個機制來召開那我想這一次我知道委員會有一些提案說是不是我們再重新來討論一次那我想重新討論一次我們建議是不是也可以再考慮再跟社會做更多的一個對話跟共識這樣一個方式謝謝"},{"start":4212.701,"end":4229.355,"text":"那我這邊再宣告一下就是說因為我們一開始就有提到說因為今天現在已經高達60幾位委員有登記發言那因為時間的關係我們不針對任何人就是麻煩各位委員在發言的時候注意一下時間那下一位我們麻煩請蘇仁市長進行報告"},{"start":4235.349,"end":4251.874,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生。今天貴委員會舉行本會期第18次的委員會議（併案審查公務人員退休撫卹法及公務人員任用法相關修正條文草案本人應邀列起報告深感榮幸謹就下列提案。"},{"start":4252.898,"end":4259.806,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":4273.666,"end":4298.267,"text":"那剛才部長也有提到說假如一個年金改革我們已經進行到六七年的這個階段要來去做審視我想當初成立的時候我們也花很多的時間凝聚整個社會的共識假如要去做這樣的一個變革我這裡會期待說我們是不是可以透過一些跟社會對話還有舉辦公聽會的一個方式"},{"start":4301.997,"end":4321.504,"text":"最後關於任用法部分李委員所提的修正任用法第36條之一及翁委員提案修正任用法28條之一的部分我想我們總署會尊重大宴的一個審議結果以上報告請各位委員參考指教謝謝那個區域機關齁如果"},{"start":4329.896,"end":4335.661,"text":"提出書面報告機關,如果沒有口頭補充的話,那所提書面的內容都列入公報記錄。"},{"start":4351.349,"end":4362.96,"text":"那如果有程序發言的話那就時間我們想說時間三分鐘因為今天太多人了了解了解我會盡量的啦謝謝非常謝謝主席謝謝召委還有所有的委員都來關心這個議題"},{"start":4364.406,"end":4386.324,"text":"那剛剛我們從一段時間就聽了幾乎每一位提案委員上來說他們表達了對於年金改革經過這六七年來分分各界都有一些不同的聲音那其實民主社會多元意見本來就是正常而且民意是滾動的這我也完全的認同所以民意代表的天職"},{"start":4387.345,"end":4395.652,"text":"就是根據自己選區選民的托付來反映他的心聲所以今天我覺得司法委員會這樣對年金制度報告來做一個檢討而各種提案的內容我覺得也都各自有它所利潤的依據那因此我覺得剛剛聽到有好幾個議題都值得我們細細來來發揮"},{"start":4409.523,"end":4410.704,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":4427.498,"end":4450.277,"text":"事務委員會討論一共17次全國的分區座談辦了4次精算報告來立法院做了6次的報告甚至最後還有一個由總統要求的辦了一個國事會議所以我們發現年金改革因為牽動的相關人士不管是軍公教甚至有人提到勞工甚至到甚至在納稅的這些納稅人還有"},{"start":4453.879,"end":4472.035,"text":"將近數十萬在職的公務人員他們都非常關心那麼年金改革不是只關心到現在正在你年金的退休人員因為年金啊他是一個大水庫是由現在的在職人員他們持續的去挹注而政府呢在過去也都有不斷的在進行"},{"start":4472.675,"end":4486.525,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智�"},{"start":4501.156,"end":4522.764,"text":"復養小孩,那爸爸媽媽公務員有這樣的一個在公務人員的服務辦法上給予他這樣的一個便利那麼如果是祖父母阿公阿嬤可不可以我覺得這個也很值得討論因為現在呢隔代教養啊也相當的一個普遍那麼為了鼓勵我們國家教養下一代這樣的提案的內容呢都很值得我們來討論那麼鑑於啊本會期是預算會期"},{"start":4525.945,"end":4529.547,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":4549.998,"end":4569.392,"text":"實際上似乎還有待繼續加強那是否我們未來在預算審議送出委員之後我們可能預計按照草野協商到1月21號之前我們繼續會有研會那麼研會的期間可不可以就我們年金改革重大議題我們持續的來辦理公聽會那麼我在這邊也做個預告因為作為"},{"start":4575.536,"end":4586,"text":"草案（一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資�"},{"start":4595.143,"end":4605.707,"text":"就是對今天的年金改革多達20個以上的法案我們來邀請各界來進行討論我在這裡也來呼籲我們是不是請吳昭偉現在的主席也能夠在完成預算審議之後我們來排定充裕的時間來邀請社會各界來辦理公聽會總而言之我們強調雖然是預算審議會期我們依法要在年底之前至少在委員會部分我們努力的完成我們該進的各機關的公務預算的審查"},{"start":4624.915,"end":4646.574,"text":"那麼至於重大的年金法案的修改我覺得為著因應這個最新的民意我們滾動式的來調整過去就主張五年後就要檢討一次在去年那根據去年檢討的結果未來這個制度怎麼去進行可長可久的調整本席都非常的贊成也在這裡懇請呼籲在程序上我們今天的主席非常的好"},{"start":4647.054,"end":4647.674,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具〈公務人員退休資遣〉"},{"start":4665.393,"end":4682.15,"text":"我知道我先再稍微念一下剛舉手的有陳俊宇委員、張立雄委員、吳世耀委員還有羅志強委員那是不是如果說接下來這四位發言完畢之後如果還有人想要成立法院用登記的方式不然我怕會亂掉大家都不知道誰先誰後"},{"start":4686.444,"end":4709.351,"text":"對對對所以我剛說的這四位發言之外如果還有人想要發言的是我們用登記的方式才不會很混亂好那就麻煩那個王毅昌委員來登記那我們現在馬上先請那個陳俊委員進行發言"},{"start":4728.276,"end":4755.673,"text":"主席我們各位列席的各單位的首長還有我們在座各位的委員同仁各位媒體先進大家早安那我們今天這個司法法制委員會排審退伏法條的這個相關內容的一個修正那將會衝擊到現行這個年金制度我想政府對於公務人員的一個照顧不論是現職或是已退休的這個人員都應該要兼顧"},{"start":4757.655,"end":4785.594,"text":"建權公務人員的一個退休制度更是不分黨派歷任的政府都想完成這個目標。多年前因為有這個月退的這個制度支領這個年齡偏低所得替代率偏高等問題的一個存在導致退伏基金收支嚴重的一個失衡那出現財務的缺口更面臨提早用慶的一個危機"},{"start":4786.374,"end":4802.742,"text":"直到2016年蔡英文總統上任之後開始推動軍公教的年金改革的相關工作從制度面的著手針對制度來設計根本性的問題處理以改善年金的體質"},{"start":4804.892,"end":4828.005,"text":"同時在和社會溝通的過程中也歷經了一番的努力極力尋求體諒和支持終於在立法院審議通過之後在2018年完成了讓年金永續改革的一個方案以確保基金餘額能維持一個時代30年不用慶的一個目標穩定延續下去"},{"start":4828.965,"end":4857.324,"text":"對於這個退撫基金財務的壓力舒緩國家整體財政的一個健全都有顯著的一個改善而今天我們要審查20個版本的這個退撫法相關的草案大多都遠離當初改革的一個方向不但會讓年金改革的這個效果大打折扣對退撫基金的一個運作也會有很大的一個影響我們對於這個制度的變革必須是以一個長遠"},{"start":4859.425,"end":4880.521,"text":"的未來來做規劃也要對歷史來負責對於公務人員退休的生活保障和退府基金的一個永續要一併來重視同時我們也要重視社會世代和正義正義和公平性橫憑兼顧在制度內的相關每一個族群同時也要重視"},{"start":4882.369,"end":4899.489,"text":"每一個世代公務人員都能夠領得到而且要持續領領到勞而且要有保障我相信這才是最重要的也是政府要讓年金制度具有合理性健全性永續性所期待的一個重大目標"},{"start":4900.47,"end":4923.342,"text":"所以年金制度的這個變革會影響跨世代的相關權益務必要以最審慎的這種態度來面對所以我們還是主張在審查前要召開公聽會廣納民間專家學者的相關意見也讓列席的相關部會有更充分的一個機會來檢視改革這幾年的一個具體成效"},{"start":4924.142,"end":4937.734,"text":"切莫讓得來不易的這種改革成果成為政治考量之下短期利益的一個犧牲品我希望我們各位委員應該對於這個部分要來多加重視好以上"},{"start":4940.197,"end":4940.758,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4957.93,"end":4960.271,"text":"賴主席,各位在場美女朋友還有列席的一個官員我們各位"},{"start":4987.757,"end":4994.124,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":5010.305,"end":5024.963,"text":"什麼原因造成因為繳得少然後呢退得早領得多就像火車掉下懸崖不改革或言下兩屆總統這句話誰都可能比較沒印象羅志祥委員應該印象會特別深刻"},{"start":5026.064,"end":5034.587,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":5051.374,"end":5075.144,"text":"到底公務人員所有的退休的一個撫卹全部由國家來負責全部由國家來負責那當然就是全民來負責這是不是一個好方法這當然也是一個好方法那還是由基金這個退撫基金的一個成員他的主體就是由現職的公務人員"},{"start":5076.325,"end":5076.545,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":5106.625,"end":5116.875,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":5130.305,"end":5131.586,"text":"二（委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":5150.424,"end":5175.504,"text":"他們願不願意再多出因為他要多領嘛那這個基金裡面的一個主體這個活水要注入進去的是現在的還在職的公務人員退休的人要多領那現在在職的公務人員他願不願意再去提高他的提撥率我想過去啊N幾次啊那現在啊共同提撥制啊"},{"start":5176.925,"end":5200.908,"text":"這三號大好官會議解釋也許大好官大家都蠻討厭尤其在國民黨的好朋友們你市制第781號市制第782號跟市制第783號裡面啊那個講得很清楚啊所謂政府要負最後的責任不是說誰大家都不用去繳錢大家都不用負責任政府不用去負任何的一個改革"},{"start":5202.298,"end":5202.578,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":5223.413,"end":5233.769,"text":"這個可能要好好的來跟社會上做一個對話啦所以我建議啊這一些其實都可以討論都可以討論保障公務人員又可以讓年金不破產"},{"start":5234.895,"end":5240.398,"text":"這個其實才是正辦,所以我也在這邊建議好議題那也過去在整個在修法的時候也很多受到波及的人也上了街頭表達他們自己的心聲那你重新因為說我們已經經過改革已經省了兩千多億了所以呢都已經省了兩千多億了所以我們再來走回頭路我們就大把大把的鈔票就把它花下去沒關係也可以"},{"start":5263.849,"end":5264.269,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5284.215,"end":5307.655,"text":"我這邊先會宣告一下那待會在第一輪的那個程序發言是到羅志強委員結束那王一川委員開始是會議詢問那在羅志強委員發完畢之後我們休息五分鐘然後我們再緊接著進行會議詢問好接下來請吳世耀委員進行程序發言"},{"start":5316.617,"end":5340.917,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁我想高齡少子化是國際的趨勢所以各國都在進行年金改革那各國的經驗可以供給台灣做參考年金改革上路之後各國可不可以再審視再改革的需求再檢視的必要當然可以"},{"start":5341.738,"end":5350.183,"text":"所以說不管是希臘或是法國他們都在2010年第一次啟動了年金改革然後法國在2014第二次的改革希臘2016第二次的改革然後兩個國家同樣在2023年也就是去年進行了年金改革的第二次審視"},{"start":5371.083,"end":5398.49,"text":"為什麼各國還要再審視年改因為高齡少子化政府的財政負擔如果一直持續的來提供退休公務同仁那麼各國的財政都面臨非常大的風險所以各個國家對於年改一改二改三改的共同趨勢是什麼是越改越嚴"},{"start":5400.202,"end":5427.765,"text":"而今天台灣在野黨委員啟動再行的審視可以但是是朝越改越鬆讓年改走回頭路這就跟國際的經驗跟我們可以預判的國家財政的狀況是大為失衡所以可以審視法案但是要慎重"},{"start":5428.857,"end":5454.514,"text":"我們看看過去馬英九時期也曾經啟動過年改他在2012年2013年的時候我手上的這個新聞稿我想羅志強委員當時就是馬英九總統的副秘書長這一場新聞稿發布也可能出自您的手我不知道您一定有參與這是2013年1月30號您就是那時候的副秘書長"},{"start":5459.378,"end":5473.713,"text":"馬英九時期啟動的年改召開的全國性座談會有124場年金改革座談會還有邀請20位立委出席27個場次"},{"start":5476.055,"end":5491.431,"text":"蔡英文總統在啟動年改的時候我們也召開了20場的公聽會然後呢我說的是年改總統府的公聽會有20場然後北中南東再加上全國性的會議共5場也就是20加5"},{"start":5494.798,"end":5495.258,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":5524.718,"end":5542.1,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 令每一個服務國家勞力從工的公務同仁都領得到退休金。那麼現役的公務同仁包括今天坐在現場這麼多辛苦的公務同仁我們要確保每一位的"},{"start":5543.055,"end":5549.861,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":5567.057,"end":5583.64,"text":"不要忘了馬英九時期124場的討論會蔡英文時期是25場的全國討論那現在2024的立法院我們希望惠據社會共識我們嚴肅來討論謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言搞了半天今天原來是馬維拉大會啊"},{"start":5596.175,"end":5620.152,"text":"原來馬總統已經當了十年總統都沒卸任啦民進黨這麼懷念他剛剛什麼程序發言全部都在做實質討論我跟主席報告我的程序發言只是一個點為什麼程序發言都變實質討論但沒關係啦民進黨現在程序發言當實質討論也是文化了我就比照民進黨的說法只有一個點叫公聽會其他都是實質討論對不對"},{"start":5623.069,"end":5636.597,"text":"通通都實質討論來我跟各位講首先我要跟我們吳思瑤來跟你回應一下講到馬英九抱歉我也支持年金改革啊莊瑞雄講了已經砍了兩千億不夠嗎砍了兩千億不夠嗎不夠他剛剛講的他說不夠啊你已經把公務人員的血肉刨光我們現在只是卑微的拜託你們把公務員的骨跟筋留著而已啦"},{"start":5653.783,"end":5654.324,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":5667.534,"end":5669.295,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":5691.129,"end":5718.01,"text":"老保也有破產跟財務負擔的問題啊但我主張政府負擔最終責任跟賴清德總統一樣啊我還主張入法民進黨還不敢主張入法由立法保障政府對老保最終財務責任但是今天大家看看遇到老保財務負擔的問題民進黨跟你講政府不會倒遇到公務人員退休金的財務問題就講政府會倒啊"},{"start":5719.192,"end":5721.773,"text":"這不叫雙標?什麼叫雙標?我今天在這邊最看不過去的就是今天民進黨吳思瑤手上拿的那個保障公務員的牌子吳思瑤拿的保障公務員的牌子我跟你講什麼叫做啃你鼓喝你血還拍拍你說我愛你這就是民進黨啦啃你血吸你鼓來拍拍說我愛你"},{"start":5748.28,"end":5773.559,"text":"然後說我是要保障你然後呢就跟民進黨吳思瑤領導的民進黨立法院黨團今天聲援尹錫悅的戒嚴民進黨還跟你講說這叫做捍衛自由民主憲政兩手策略無以復加這就是吳思瑤啊這就是民進黨啊不就是嗎那我要跟各位講再來講下一個問題"},{"start":5775.711,"end":5800.146,"text":"今天你要動勞保你要動年改你要動任何的東西你起碼民進黨政府做到一件事情你不要浪費嘛你跟我講那些軍公教你從75砍到67.5你還要喊破產政府每年超徵稅收三千億四千億"},{"start":5802.087,"end":5814.49,"text":"稅務超徵難道不是從納稅人手上拿到的錢難道不是政府財務的一部分更重要的是今天民進黨你不要再跟我講政府財務的問題你今天你們在大大小小光最近就業安定基金發生的問題是什麼有沒有看到都不長眼都沒看到就是被民進黨的官員拿去浪費當作小金庫"},{"start":5830.084,"end":5853.299,"text":"包括光電的弊案動輒上億動輒十億甚至動搖國本我揭發的光電案400億的罰款400億的所謂的短購的利益民進黨也是這樣子拱手讓給光電的廠商啊你超徵稅收你浪費現在你跟我講說你要來砍公務員我直接告訴大家"},{"start":5859.417,"end":5883.231,"text":"今天民進黨從頭到尾就瞧不起公務員你們背後支撐你們的全部都是公務員但是你們著手踐踏公務員尊嚴霸凌案傳到這種程度你們還有臉嗎我當過公務員兩年啊我沒有見識到這麼恐怖的霸凌啊我即便工作辛苦主管管對我們都是感謝跟肯定啊當你們執政"},{"start":5886.977,"end":5914.3,"text":"叫公務員升登演講叫公務員下跪道歉叫公務員你們去死都你偉大的民進黨會出現的事情踐踏公務員尊嚴再削奪公務員退休保障我最後再講一件事情我請今天民進黨告訴我啊你一班公務員你們今天瞧不起踐踏難道連警察、消防、海巡、空總跟移民署的危險勤務人員你們今天也要擋嗎?"},{"start":5915.768,"end":5939.454,"text":"我直接把今天大家養嘛我剛剛有直接跟主席報告啦前面全部超時我今天也忍不了我也要來超時為什麼反正民進黨今天打算用冗長發言就是要拖死公務員拖死警察拖死消防人員拖死工種拖死移民署拖死海巡他今天我跟你保證他們就拖到底所有的內容一模一樣"},{"start":5941.264,"end":5964.945,"text":"十個二十個三十個講的都一模一樣的話請所有公教人員請所有警察消防海巡空總跟移民署的辛苦的人員今天一整天看著司法法制委員會民進黨是怎麼樣在踐踏你們用發言冗長的方式拖延一時的程序的方式在踐踏你們"},{"start":5966.563,"end":5976.652,"text":"還跟我講馬英九你們有臉講馬總統主張年金改革也沒有叫你們刀刀入骨啊砍兩千億不夠砍到什麼時候謝謝好謝謝那我們就依照剛剛的那個宣告就先休息五分鐘因為我們剛剛有講啊"},{"start":5993.772,"end":6000.414,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":6014.478,"end":6041.257,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。 bicycliffe等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":6043.243,"end":6056.848,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":6074.241,"end":6079.244,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":6091.647,"end":6096.114,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6114.738,"end":6134.09,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6136.745,"end":6138.799,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。"},{"start":7453.697,"end":7475.787,"text":"好我們繼續開會那接下來我們請王逸川委員發言好主席各位先進今天聽完國民黨的立委每個人講的都很有道理"},{"start":7477.601,"end":7498.373,"text":"爲了這個公務人員爭取相關的權益,尤其是退休公務員的權益保障。都很好,這個都非常的好。非常的好,就是剛才說的一些數字,國民黨說的數字,今天我們這全序部說的,人家現在堆不起來,可能會各說各話。"},{"start":7504.309,"end":7509.553,"text":"而所謂的東西推算到現在也不一定一樣,而公務人員當時要推動的,現在也不知道他當時在那時候成功,觀眾那時候推動成功,到底這破產的幾年,現在也不知道。而他剛才委員說這個公務人員不錯,所以公務人員的版本是現在來算起來到底如何,也不知道。"},{"start":7535.558,"end":7545.744,"text":"我們全市府說這個如果這樣做的話會提早幾年幾年這數字我看也要叫一些學者專家再來比對一下所以我是建議這樣主席我們這個會因為這個案很多然後這個大家想的方法根本沒什麼人因為實施一段時間那對這個退休公務員實質"},{"start":7563.713,"end":7566.295,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":7593.445,"end":7601.867,"text":"還是要開公聽會,叫一些學者專家厲害關係人,現在在做公務人員的六職等的、九職等的、十二職等的代表來講,叫他們退休的,叫他們來講一下說,這已經年金改革了,我本地這全市部我一場說,我現在每年拿多少,世界上我現在拿多少,這避一下,現在若是說改革改革改革,改革要往前進,又走回頭路,"},{"start":7623.231,"end":7623.471,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":7639.161,"end":7643.164,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．"},{"start":7667.574,"end":7669.016,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文宣告"},{"start":7685.314,"end":7685.634,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":7711.58,"end":7720.273,"text":"公務人員退休資遣 事反責嚴謝謝王委員 下一位我們請鍾瑞雄委員"},{"start":7732.622,"end":7755.939,"text":"謝謝張委我們在場所有的委員各位媒體朋友這個是一個很棘手的一個問題啦剛剛我也聽了羅志強委員的一番的一個發言慷慨激昂啦但是這個過程裡面情緒又波動了這個社會又要波動了但是該面對的還是要去面對我很誠懇的來講我相信過去從蔡英文時代"},{"start":7756.92,"end":7759.362,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7780.12,"end":7794.529,"text":"我也去注意到中國國民黨的黨主席朱立倫先生去提到說這違反了信賴保護原則但是我必須要再講此言真的是差異除非你要把整個制度全部都砸爛掉"},{"start":7796.69,"end":7810.075,"text":"不然各位去看一看不管是大法官4至781號談到的軍人的年改或者說4至第782號的公務人員的一個年改或者說4至第783號裡面的教師的年改都有去碰到一個問題就是說三個退伍保障的相關法規範裡面"},{"start":7817.478,"end":7819.901,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7836.218,"end":7836.478,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":7853.178,"end":7861.4,"text":"撫卹法第七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬"},{"start":7882.585,"end":7883.026,"text":"二）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":7899.628,"end":7925.083,"text":"再重新做一個最後的一個役助那又涉及到全國納稅醫務人所以這個議題其實好好的來做一個公聽好好的做一個討論可以大家心平氣和來做一個討論倒不是壞事我們過去常常在談的就是所謂的世代的一個正義那這一些到底是符不符合重新再來檢視一次我倒覺得在立法院裡面本來就是可以來討論以上謝謝"},{"start":7928.51,"end":7928.79,"text":"草案案件"},{"start":7938.294,"end":7939.935,"text":"草案（立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":7964.42,"end":7966.242,"text":"當時106年在年改的過程當中其實時空、環境、背景都跟現在完全不一樣了"},{"start":7983.442,"end":7984.143,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":8000.097,"end":8019.324,"text":"現在環境跟106年不一樣現在也不是說我們在討論這些版本我們就反對年改它是持續在調整當中但是怎麼樣的一個調整的方向跟方式是都兼顧到各級層面的我希望朝野黨派可以靜下心來大家好好思考"},{"start":8020.004,"end":8047.478,"text":"這一次包括物價指數從當時106年的時候其實也已經調整了10%以上所以我認為不是不能討論而是我們來了解一下改革經過這麼一段時間我們軍公教員面臨現在生活的挑戰基於過去對國家的奉獻還有基於過去政府對他們信賴保護原則我們是不是有再一次看看哪裡可以調整的必要性這是第一點"},{"start":8048.038,"end":8066.761,"text":"第二點我今天還有另外一個版本就是公務人員的派用辦法民國五六十年我們任用了一批公務人員派遣辦法那當時是那要他們來去配合我們現在做重要的公共建設我舉一個例子來說現在台北市捷運局現在有高達61%是派用人員那現在還在任的有46人但是還有20人還未滿60歲"},{"start":8075.583,"end":8086.78,"text":"但是這些人因為派遣派用辦法已經達到落日條款所以這些人現在這些單位裡面是升不上去但是新的活水也進不來導致現在在各縣市很多派用人員"},{"start":8091.246,"end":8103.4,"text":"其實留在原職然後新的有能力的上來其實也接不上來因為上面這些人其實因為落日條款已經在那邊所以我覺得對於有一些單位人力的老化職務的久任對於機關的長遠的發展絕對不是好事"},{"start":8107.424,"end":8127.589,"text":"所以我了解各縣市或多或少都有一些狀況那我也非常感謝全市部我們提出來這個派用辦法公務人員任用辦法的調整那全市部尊重本院的提案那我們也希望透過今天我的提案跟好幾位委員不同黨派的提案我希望這個部分能有機會來進入實質的懲罰"},{"start":8130.25,"end":8146.897,"text":"審查。當然我剛剛聽到好幾位委員說是不是要再聽公聽會再辦公聽會那我想這個部分尊重召委的決定但是我們還是希望立院其實有機會討論其實時間其實非常有限所以我們也希望今天討論"},{"start":8148.558,"end":8148.878,"text":"稍後請吳佩奕委員發言"},{"start":8174.826,"end":8202.997,"text":"謝謝主席我後面還有登記發言剛剛主席說希望我們多做會議詢問所以首先我想要表達的是我認為我們在現場的每一位立法委員我們都沒有資格來當全台灣軍公教人員的代言人剛剛柳志強委員的發言我相當的不認同他進到公務體系的時候一進去就總統府的高官"},{"start":8204.093,"end":8230.53,"text":"因為我個人我的外公過去在溫州就是小學老師在戰爭以前被分發來台灣教書那後來戰爭了就沒有辦法回去所以就留在台灣繼續擔任小學老師那我的家庭裡面很多人也耳濡目染也通過了國家的考試成為教師成為公務員我們家人裡面也有基層的軍人"},{"start":8233.032,"end":8261.072,"text":"所以軍公教的年金改革對我個人來說這不只是關乎國家的社會正義公平正義、世代正義也是關乎我自己家人我們的生命的受到的改變那我的家人裡面在當初從105年國家組成年金改革委員會的時候其實大家社會已經有非常多的討論了"},{"start":8262.731,"end":8263.172,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":8275.029,"end":8301.942,"text":"很多都是在公部門裡面服務大家最關心的事情是年金能不能維持世代正義今天國民黨的委員提出了20個版本要終止年金改革這個是在霸凌現職現在還在在院的全台灣36萬的公務員為什麼因為年金當年如果沒有進行改革的話它已經破產了"},{"start":8303.423,"end":8306.464,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":8323.831,"end":8325.912,"text":"請務必不要把年金改革當成一個政黨黨派鬥爭的議題我們要去思考的是這個國家下一個30年下一個50年我們整體的公務體系的公務人員是不是能夠去保障他未來的退休金"},{"start":8344.545,"end":8368.381,"text":"以實務來說因為我自己家人很多也是有收到年金的這個退休退休金的改革實務來說全序部也給我們數字了現在的這個退休領到的月退七成都是高於五萬元這個其實高於民間的平均薪資4.58萬也高於民間的勞保勞退3.75萬所以"},{"start":8375.509,"end":8394.274,"text":"我們應該去想到我們本院大院韓國瑜院長想的那句話:「莫忘世上苦人多。」年金改革我們要持續進行因為我們必須要保障下一個世代全台灣基層的軍公教他們的退休金"},{"start":8395.494,"end":8423.688,"text":"絕對不能終止年改讓年金的破產第二我們也要去關心關乎我們整體台灣的社會正義所以我希望我希望年金改革已經經過國家年改委員會各方的意見各方的專家的討論我根本的認為國民黨這些委員28個版本的提案都應該要撤案"},{"start":8424.568,"end":8440.232,"text":"你們才在這邊討論才是在霸凌公務員才是在浪費大家的時間我希望大家可以回到我們國家整體的財政保障公務員的福利來思考不要再把年金當成政治操作鬥爭的議題謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":8451.931,"end":8478.642,"text":"謝謝主席我二度發言年金改革不走回頭路世代正義不能開倒車今天走回頭明天就後悔所以說呢我想非常嚴肅我們在面對年金改革是否要檢視當然可以檢視我第一輪發言的時候也說世界各國也在檢視年金改革但是世界各國是越改越嚴"},{"start":8479.682,"end":8507.889,"text":"因為高齡少子化財政面對的問題都迫使各國更加的讓年改越走越嚴而台灣是要越走越寬嗎我在這裡具體的要求除了我們要顧及所有相關當事人利害關係人的權益也就是退休公務員的聲音要聽退休公務員的權益要顧我都支持"},{"start":8508.729,"end":8532.686,"text":"但是現役公務員的聲音乃至於下一代公務員的權益我們一定要兼顧所以我們需要公聽會今天就全序部所提出來的六大主題是分別聚焦於這一次修法會衍生的六個嚴肅的課題所以我具體的主張六場公聽會能夠很細緻的針對每一個"},{"start":8536.989,"end":8555.195,"text":"因為修法而必須嚴肅討論的課題來充分討論讓所有的利害相關者除了退休公務員歡迎來發聲但是現役公務員的聲音我們也不能偏聽所以我具體主張六個主題的公聽會大有必要"},{"start":8556.195,"end":8573.685,"text":"另外除了權益面要考慮我們也要來考量財務面現在有個新生課題就是在野黨同樣提出的財政收支劃分法如果審查通過以現在的版本是從國庫會挖走6612億"},{"start":8578.328,"end":8586.852,"text":"我們今天看到的資料就幾年來年改上路6年來我們合計挹注了退府基金3068億而當中2774億是從年改端結而來的基金"},{"start":8595.675,"end":8601.558,"text":"但是當中這兩年2023、2024政府額外撥補了294億才讓他的水位可以拉到3068億然後延後基金破產的年限但是現在如果財化法修了"},{"start":8613.524,"end":8638.062,"text":"中央的財務又面臨非常大的強害的時候還有辦法連年來撥補挹注嗎所以財政面我們也要求在公聽的過程邀請財政專家一起來討論因為沒有錢這些退休金都沒有辦法獲得國家的保障"},{"start":8639.409,"end":8656.173,"text":"最後一點我有一個新的主張這個會期是預算會期在司法法制委員會中嘉賓委員已經排審了三個部會的預算完成詢答下週或下下週可望就進入預算的實質審查但是吳釗偉這邊負責的三個部會"},{"start":8663.274,"end":8676.04,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法"},{"start":8687.885,"end":8696.728,"text":"立委的功課要教還是要教作業要寫還是要寫所以說在有限的會議期程裡頭是不是能夠優先來審議我們的總預算案讓各個部會的總預算案能夠順利的完成審查之後再來逐案依社會的共識性依國家發展的需要來排定法案的審查"},{"start":8717.557,"end":8742.147,"text":"那就今天的主題二十個提案的年改走回頭路的修法顯然至少本期期待還有六場的公聽會那麼我們有限的期程有辦法在這個會期來審查今天的法案嗎所以我希望說就時程的安排上大家先把該寫的功課寫完"},{"start":8742.907,"end":8749.231,"text":"然後讓預算完成審查是我們這個會期重要的工作所以我非常期待等一下昭緯在這一輪的會議詢問或者是程序發言之後能夠針對我們共同的主張先公聽再審查能夠做出具體的回應也希望昭緯未來在盤案的過程我們優先讓總預算完成審查再進行其他法案的審議這應當是朝野高度的共識也懇請昭緯能夠接受我的建議謝謝"},{"start":8774.113,"end":8774.636,"text":"沈博洋委員"},{"start":8786.452,"end":8805.012,"text":"謝謝主席我還是針對因為我是會議詢問所以還是針對一些程序問題來我很贊成剛剛吳斯特委員以及吳佩儀委員講到的要嘛就是撤案要嘛就是公聽會但是我還是必須要表達一下我的一個立場就是我個人其實覺得非常的感動"},{"start":8806.153,"end":8824.611,"text":"為什麼會這樣子呢?就是因為從上個會期一直到現在其實國民黨和民眾黨一直在去審查還有去通過一些直接違憲的法案或者破壞我們國家安全的法案所以我們只好一天到晚就是要為了維護這一個國家的安全而不斷的去提到"},{"start":8824.991,"end":8825.712,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":8842.525,"end":8858.65,"text":"從上個禮拜我們看到高金對於這個原名組織法直接把這個威權時代相關的議案往後排然後呢直接不予討論然後呢在原名裡面的組織做了什麼事情只要不是我的人就給我全部變成無極職"},{"start":8859.89,"end":8879.745,"text":"不是我的人就不准給我領薪水就直接提出這樣的提案只要照顧他自己的人這樣對他們來講才叫正義所以呢我們今天看到一模一樣的年金也在做一樣的事情只有我國民黨認定的公務員才叫公務員我國民黨不認定的公務員就不叫做公務員"},{"start":8880.726,"end":8896.064,"text":"原來的年金改革為什麼可能會破產最主要的原因就是因為他是犧牲現在的公務員犧牲最近正在即將要退休或者剛退休的公務員的錢去補什麼補國民黨喜歡的公務員"},{"start":8897.285,"end":8921.633,"text":"所以當國民黨口口聲聲的講說他是在為公務員為軍警謀福利的時候奇怪我剛剛在隔壁的時候並沒有看到相關的一些討論我們今天如果真的要去照顧的話不管是我們的軍人不管是我們的警察不管是他的一些家計還是一些現在相關的福利其實是最重要的不然的話一旦年金破產的話這些人會拿不到錢"},{"start":8922.993,"end":8948.021,"text":"所以我們在犧牲這些人的情況之下就只為了以前的不正義然後要把錢全部交給國民黨喜歡的人這不是很奇怪的一件事嗎但是呢我還是很高興能夠有這樣的機會我們有這樣的一個討論因為這就是一個內政的一個事務我們認為要照顧所有的公務員所有的軍人所有的警察"},{"start":8948.661,"end":8951.463,"text":"而國民黨只想照顧他們自己認定的人。」"},{"start":8978.661,"end":8979.182,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":9004.552,"end":9014.789,"text":"感謝主席給這個機會讓我們可以透過這個過程除了是詢問相關機關之外也可以做一些程序上或彼此對這個議題上的交流"},{"start":9015.461,"end":9044.245,"text":"那剛剛有恭臨了我們羅志強委員他的一些感觸那我也是一向認為啊在程序發言呢是就我們今天的議程來討論不過他剛剛提到一個我一定要來跟羅委員做個分享他說我們是站在年金改革站在這些使用年紀的對立面是嗎我們身邊的很多人受到年金改革的影響啊最直接的影響就是在年金改革之前退休的人"},{"start":9045.626,"end":9073.917,"text":"正好我的家庭我的雙親我的兩個姊姊他們都曾經做過老師國小老師或是國中代理教師家母跟家姐甚至是國小教師退休這當中最明顯的年金改革就是家母他很早就退休了在年金改革之前呢他84年之前的就職年資他依那時候的規定可以享有18%的優存"},{"start":9076.158,"end":9098.079,"text":"後來我進入立法院在2017年那時候我們參與了年金改革那時候家母已經退休一段時間了那麼家姐告訴我說因為每個月啊家母的領的年金呢都是家姐在打理的那我就問她那媽媽這樣子少領多少錢她告訴我大概萬把塊吧"},{"start":9099.557,"end":9126.883,"text":"所以我就從我自己的錢每個月就放到轉存到家姐那裡去他都用家母的年金來支付當時協助照顧的外籍看護那麼直到家母過世了那我才發現說原來他領的錢他都請我姐姐去捐那這個"},{"start":9129.881,"end":9149.779,"text":"家裡有年金改革的人受影響的人包括家姐他是年金改革後因為為了要照顧家母他提前辦退休所以呢他沒有去感受到改革前跟改革後那個落差那這一萬把塊的落差是他身在哪裡呢我後來就詢問了就是188的優存啊"},{"start":9153.168,"end":9181.038,"text":"怎麼說?我們年金改革之前在84年的就職年資在你年改之前退休的人員他你領的年金當中有相當的比例是用18%的優惠存款的優惠利率去換算來的所以當我們將所得替代率從八成百分之八十逐年下調的時候首先去拿掉的就是讓你的優存可領的優存利息的佔比越來越少"},{"start":9182.014,"end":9194.045,"text":"事實上按照公務人員他的本分去換算的年金在他的年金的占比當中其實是根本還沒有去砍到所以等於說"},{"start":9195.527,"end":9217.819,"text":"過去家母在年金改革前退休年金改革之後他少領的錢就是他在退休的時候他的退休金存在18%優存裡面所產生出來的那個金額那個金額誰在付那個利息誰在付剛巧我在擔任立法委員之前我在屏東縣我擔任副縣長我每年都要跟財主來討論我們的預算"},{"start":9221.121,"end":9230.949,"text":"我才赫然發現地方政府有一大筆錢預算支出是在支付從縣政府退休的人員18%優存的利差存在台灣銀行的利差表示說屏東縣政府的當時縣政府的直屬縣職人員輔本部的800多人但是退休的教師上千多人"},{"start":9244.042,"end":9257.546,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體"},{"start":9271.815,"end":9294.146,"text":"年改之後的退休人員呢就加解來說他在年改之後退休他所領的錢足以維持他的退休生活而且這個替代率的在下遞減啊其實以他的退休當時所領的年金還優於當年新進的教師許多"},{"start":9295.273,"end":9311.986,"text":"就一個奉獻教育崗位這麼多年的教師不是家母還是家姐還是所有全國的教育人員我都心存感激但是年輕改革最大的另外一個受益者是什麼在年改之後"},{"start":9313.237,"end":9337.718,"text":"年改之後尤其是八十四年沒有八十年之後的舊日年資年改之後這些公務人員他們這個年金可以延續到讓他們進入這個機關之後他未來可期待的退休的時候仍然有足夠的基金水位來維持他有尊嚴的生活所以作為一個年金改革受影響者的家庭"},{"start":9338.464,"end":9358.824,"text":"我要在這裡跟我們待會會發言的羅委員分享我們不是年金改革的敵人年金改革裡面沒有誰是敵人我們很多的親朋好友都是年金改革的受影響的人而且絕大部分是受益者絕大部分是受益者"},{"start":9359.949,"end":9384.79,"text":"所以我真的還要誠懇的呼籲大家在關心軍公教人員權益的時候要有一個永續的思維今天任何人進入公部門進入教育崗位為國奉獻為社會栽培人才他們的退休生活我們國家用制度性的保障說到制度性的保障18號的優存是當時年改的時候社會最不公平的來源因為他們有法律的依據"},{"start":9386.232,"end":9402.393,"text":"當年為什麼政府會發明這18%的優存呢?是因為當時的政府的財政沒有辦法支應公務人員足夠的退休金所以鼓勵他用半權退、半月退的方式把他半權退的錢拿到回來給政府周轉"},{"start":9404.212,"end":9431.104,"text":"母金留給政府周轉政府給你18%的優準付利息來補貼那時候公務人員微薄的薪資他的微薄的年金18%當年是存在有軍公教人員用他一次或半次的全退的薪水的退休金放給政府讓政府使用政府給他18%的優存在當年的時空背景之下後來經歷了公務人員薪資結構的全面調整"},{"start":9431.724,"end":9459.089,"text":"加解擔任國小教師的時候心智已經改善很多了所以他現在退休生活無餘我也非常的感念有前面這些退休人員他們的付出也感謝這段時間政府的提撥但是我們要強調的未來不管是軍公教都需要這個年金改革維持能夠永續的去存在謝謝主席讓我這個時間讓心情來跟羅委員做交換謝謝總召委那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":9470.945,"end":9498.044,"text":"主席我想在座的立法委員齁如果我沒有看錯的話齁大概只有我跟主席曾經當過公務員啦我是講那個你考公務人員的高普考嗎我講的是公務員通過高普考的公務員 文官 文官啦 謝謝沒有 您發展好啦 謝謝"},{"start":9499.994,"end":9528.934,"text":"我想我只要分享一下我自己當公務員的心情而且是基層公務員基層公務員心情我在大學畢業當兵退伍的時候通過高考進到公平會當基層公務員那時候蔡英文在當公平會的委員那我還印象非常深刻因為我的父母親都是勞工階層父親是碼頭工人所以當時看到榜單出來那我考上高考父親是開心到流眼淚"},{"start":9530.677,"end":9557.904,"text":"可是呢最近我看到另外一個母親也在流眼淚就是那位無姓公務員他被霸凌被他的主管管霸凌然後交出了工作的同時也交出了他的生命他的母親也在流眼淚今天我在這邊我也跟告訴大家我是從公務人員的角度將心比心的來去看今天公務員到底面對什麼問題"},{"start":9560.336,"end":9587.681,"text":"公務人員現在面對兩大問題第一個就是過去這八年我們的民進黨執政的時候對文官極度的侵滅極度的霸凌你現在看到所有的事情在過去我當公務員基層公務員的時候或者是我在馬政府工作的時候坦白講是沒有看到的怎麼會去霸凌到公務員今天"},{"start":9589.178,"end":9611.743,"text":"必須用這麼極端的方式怎麼會去叫公務員深蹲演講叫公務員下跪道歉還叫公務員你去死吧這是長期民進黨對於所謂的公務人員的不尊重那甚至最後變成霸凌那造成的一個悲劇第二個是什麼"},{"start":9612.864,"end":9639.142,"text":"第二就是對於公務人員民進黨長期把公務人員都是貶義為祕寵所以呢認為你不值得你不應該拿到這樣的退休待遇我回想起當初我在報考公務員的時候我也會萬萬沒有想到一件事有報公務員第一個為什麼那時候想要當公務員因為我覺得公務員是一個有尊嚴的工作啊"},{"start":9640.165,"end":9669.113,"text":"大家都覺得考上公務員很棒啊很好啊公務員是一個穩定的工作可以報銷國家公務人員是一個有保障的工作不只薪水有保障政府也保障了我退休的生活三十年前我不會想像到有一天政府跟我講說因為我會破產所以抱歉我曾經答應你的事情我做不到我們再回到今天的我們講的公務員員的退休的所得替代率的問題"},{"start":9670.728,"end":9696.468,"text":"剛才民進黨的委員們一直在強調馬政府馬總統對於公務人員的這年金改革的態度是啊公務人員也沒有反對年金改革我也沒有反對啊但我不知道今天我們的在座的執政黨的立委跟我們所有後面的機關的首長你有沒有聽到你們自己都說已經砍了公務員兩千億了當血肉消去之後"},{"start":9697.759,"end":9725.941,"text":"在這邊我們期待的也就是你可不可以保他的金股啊公務員也沒有反對年金改革啊但要求所得替代率從75%掉到67.5%夠了吧就很卑微的三個字夠了吧不要怪我今天對我們嘉賓兄前面那個保障公務員這五個字我看得很刺眼因為所謂保障公務員是建立在什麼建立在削奪他的退休保障資障"},{"start":9727.233,"end":9749.801,"text":"我還沒有講今天我的提案裡面還包括一個就針對退休的警察消防海巡還有空中跟移民署的危勞勤務人員難道他們不值得國家更好的待遇嗎更好的對待嗎更好的退休保障嗎這些問題其實需要的複雜度並不難同理心而已"},{"start":9751.018,"end":9771.497,"text":"因此在這邊我坦白講民進黨有個主張我也認同但是我也希望這主張不是變成是今天某種程度拖延今天我們來談今天解決公務員現在退休保障受到很大侵害的一個拖延的理由就是你要說主張公聽會我覺得很好啊"},{"start":9772.475,"end":9774.356,"text":"三）委員吳宗憲、趙偉等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":9789.668,"end":9790.529,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":9813.43,"end":9816.052,"text":"條文宣讀時間只有十二分鐘所以我預計與尋答完畢後"},{"start":9841.331,"end":9865.053,"text":"條文修正草案 會議會在巡禮完畢跟條文宣讀後就散會。主席那您剛剛有說是不是大家都來召開公聽會所以您剛剛宣讀是您是今天的主席但是你說好公聽會就宗嘉賓去開那我們今天的訴求跟您講了一整個早上您是排案的委員怎麼排案的委員沒有要排公聽會呢"},{"start":9867.235,"end":9873.679,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":9897.236,"end":9900.146,"text":"那先審完預算再排公聽會我們也可以支持。"},{"start":9904.383,"end":9923.815,"text":"因為您是主審的召委,剛剛智翔委員也說他也支持公聽會啊,你是主審的委員嗎?那個吳委員齁,因為我自己也是認同說,因為這個也是一件重要的事情,所以我這邊我也會安排公聽會。那其他就尊重我的決定好不好?沒有,這個就尊重我的決定,因為"},{"start":9930.939,"end":9932.141,"text":"事由委員主席已經說會開公聽會你就給他一點時間好不好這個你們還是要尊重我的決策嘛"},{"start":9942.622,"end":9943.362,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9972.557,"end":9980.908,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會議的程序。機關代表先前已經報告完畢,相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄。提案說明及機關報告已經進行完畢,現在開始進行詢答。"},{"start":9989.957,"end":10011.088,"text":"法定人數不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件不足10人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案"},{"start":10016.564,"end":10019.167,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":10043.106,"end":10051.495,"text":"主席有請全序部部長然後人事長我們的警政消防移民來麻煩空總還有海巡"},{"start":10071.225,"end":10092.813,"text":"我先有幾個問題想先就教我們的五單位的那個主管請問我們的警政署我們的許主任你支持這個增加我們警察消防海巡移民空中的圍牢勤務人員的退休保障嗎"},{"start":10096.96,"end":10123.713,"text":"因為這個畢竟是屬於憲政的議題所以我們也是配合政策但是警政署會積極的協調相關機關你支持嗎?我再問第三遍你支持嗎?所以你答不出來?你答不出來?我告訴你全序部跟任市長如果反對我可以理解我今天說真的各個署長沒有到我也是有意見的"},{"start":10125.117,"end":10148.321,"text":"你請一個人事主任你今天不敢幫你的警察同仁代言聲言來主任請上來請上來請問號過去十年因公傷殘因公死亡跟殉職的警察人員多少我告訴你我知道你也沒準備8139人沒錯吧平均每年814位"},{"start":10154.293,"end":10180.786,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第七十五條條文修正草案。結果你面對我們警察這麼危險的一個情惡的狀況你連幫他們爭取退休保障你都答不出來我萬分遺憾我告訴你我再給你一次機會啦你認不認為今天我們的警察值得更好的對待"},{"start":10181.796,"end":10204.1,"text":"當然當然那他退休應該也要得到更好的保障是的謝謝你來請消防署你覺得我們消防打火弟兄他的退休值得更好的保障嗎這部分是的謝謝你來移民署"},{"start":10207.096,"end":10236.779,"text":"我們移民署的危險危牢的勤務人員值不值得更好的退休保障?是的謝謝你來 空總請問我們空總執行危牢勤務的弟兄值不值得更好的退休保障?是謝謝海巡我們海巡執行危牢勤務的弟兄值不值得更好的保障?值得"},{"start":10238.293,"end":10266.808,"text":"來,兩位,我們人事長跟部長。我想請教部長,五單位的心聲你聽到了嗎?我跟委員報告,退休人員,這種特別為老人員的一個退休保障,我們現在就有比一般公務人員更好的保障,包括他的可以提早退休,然後可以提早支援全額退休金,如果他有發生,我們不想見到任何不幸的時候。但是今天我們對所得替代率,我們希望"},{"start":10268.649,"end":10294.203,"text":"對所以我跟你講你好好聽聽五個單位的心聲我跟委員報告我問你一個問題來我想請教您請教您部長請問我們現在國人平均壽命是多少歲男性應該七十七十六歲上下女性八十一歲我想那是男女性的平均啦我講平均啦錦霄平均的死亡年齡是幾歲"},{"start":10295.804,"end":10297.667,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":10312.543,"end":10312.823,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":10339.929,"end":10354.239,"text":"我告訴你今天警察也是男女都有我們講危險勤務人員今天我還是一句很簡單的話今天功績明天忘記不要變成今天我們政治人物的常態啦我再想請教你下一個問題來我請任市長我請任市長"},{"start":10358.424,"end":10379.637,"text":"年金的所謂的我們今天講所得替待遇現在已經從本分的兩倍的75%掉到67%了嘛 對不對67.5了嘛 對不對67.5剛剛我們執政黨的委員也講啊過去在砍公務員退休金這些年已經砍了兩千多億了嘛 對不對2074億2074億嘛 對不對請問我們在這邊是在反對年金改革嗎"},{"start":10386.755,"end":10413.592,"text":"我想不是反對大家只是針對這個意義大家對話對啊很好啊今天我只是講到一個重點也讓我們所有公教人員聽一聽今天年金改革列車啟動之後公教人員已經被砍掉兩千多億了那我再想請教你下一個問題我們只是說夠了吧但夠了吧是你的主觀的判斷啦夠不夠了你們自己有自己的精算的方式"},{"start":10414.465,"end":10441.22,"text":"可是今天過去政府在標舉所謂的年金改革你今天要除了血肉之外還要刨瓦他的筋骨這個邏輯建構在幾個邏輯第一個邏輯是什麼政府財政困難嘛對不對沒錯吧都會破產年金可以永續還有兼顧到世代正義的問題那我想請教您吼你支不支持我們的勞保政府負擔最終保證責任"},{"start":10443.32,"end":10472.302,"text":"這個我想勞動部會有整體的一個規劃問你你知道賴總統主張是什麼基本上你不會連賴總統主張都不知道來部長請問部長你知道吧賴總統政見是什麼勞保他覺得政府要怎麼樣我想政府永遠是要照顧我勞工跟所有的工作者你也不敢講你賴總統的話都不敢講賴總統就直接保證勞保政府會負擔最終保證身份只是我比他更近一步我主張要入法"},{"start":10474.451,"end":10474.911,"text":"二）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":10504.551,"end":10511.315,"text":"今天請問2020年稅收超徵多少錢?超徵多少?部長五千億啦!2023超徵多少?3860億啦!2024超徵多少?四千億啦!一邊喊窮!"},{"start":10526.955,"end":10543.71,"text":"幾千億幾千億稅收超徵這還是其次來我想請教您你覺得政府最近是不是爆發很多包括濫用就業安定基金甚至包括今天我們連政府都在反省檢討的一些所謂的國家的預算使用的問題有沒有你知道吧有看過了吧就業安定基金的浪費連勞動部我們的部長都說要去查啦有沒有"},{"start":10551.676,"end":10566.524,"text":"當我們的權序部長可以躲在深山當中選擇性的去接受今天只對公務員不利的一個訊息那任何對公務人員我們要討公道的訊息你當什麼權序部長啊!人事長請!我要問人事長了"},{"start":10575.916,"end":10603.457,"text":"你總知道吧?有看新聞吧?我也有看新聞對啊!部長學學人事長擔當人事長至少沒有像你這樣迴避問題那我就要問一件事情你政府幾千億幾百億要嘛就掏空要嘛就浪費要嘛就閉案然後你一邊亂花錢裝潢每人每款的辦公室辦演唱會然後發包綠油油去剪輯他個人宣傳的影片"},{"start":10604.974,"end":10621.619,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件中（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件中）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件中）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件中）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案"},{"start":10634.229,"end":10660.391,"text":"沒有在反對什麼年改我們的訴求只有一個兩千億夠了吧還不夠啊最後啊我要跟還是跟我們任市長講任市長你應該也是文官系統出身的嘛是對不對是所以我們有相同的背景跟同理心嘛對不對我也考過剛前面有講過我也考過公務員我也當過兩年的基層公務員在公民會當科員"},{"start":10662.708,"end":10679.396,"text":"你覺得最近文官系統的狀況你有沒有覺得很難過啊?你看我們公務員被霸凌你有沒有很難過啊?有沒有?部長你有沒有很難過?你們兩個責無旁貸你知道吧?公務員最大後盾靠山不就全序部不就是人事總處嗎?是不是?"},{"start":10694.636,"end":10710.687,"text":"所以我告訴你現在公務員是面兩面夾沙的困境工作沒有尊嚴被這些囂張的官員踐踏大鄰他們然後呢不斷的再去找藉口找理由砍他的退休的待遇砍兩千億不夠要繼續砍下去今天在這邊"},{"start":10715.99,"end":10738.724,"text":"我當然知道你我剛說過人事長跟權序部你們有兩個同樣職責同樣存在一個當然你們要去把守政府的一些人事的一些狀況另外你們也是公務人員很重要的後盾聽聽公務員心聲聽聽退休的警察消防海巡空總跟移民署的危牢勤務人心聲跟他們多溝通好不好"},{"start":10740.356,"end":10764.477,"text":"一直都有在溝通。」好,謝謝您。以上。好,謝謝。那下一位我們請鍾嘉賓召委進行詢問。然後我們做會議程序的預告,上午會議進行到12點。那如果到時候有委員正在詢問,就到該委員詢問結束後休息。預計休息時間一小時,下午會議提前至一時開會。"},{"start":10777.365,"end":10797.375,"text":"主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府家屬長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、記者、女士、先生。有請我們權序部施部長以及人事總處書務人事長。部長好、人事長好。我想呢,我的標題很清楚啊。"},{"start":10798.462,"end":10812.69,"text":"退休公務人員年金依法物價調整物條保障退休生活。」您同意嗎?同意。同意。那麼至於調整薪資限債職人員舉誓皆然,您認為是這樣嗎?任市長。"},{"start":10816.158,"end":10816.959,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":10830.598,"end":10831.019,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":10849.218,"end":10876.573,"text":"他說1995年退伍新制以來提撥的金額從來就不足以支應支出就是沒有足以提撥這個事實這個事實表達政府跟退休人員這個事實在過去幾次的精算報告中已經非常清楚指出但是問題存在我們選擇不面對不解決他是指當時的政府所造成的現象就是現在整個退伍基金已經瀕臨要破產的懸崖已經到了不得不改革的時刻"},{"start":10877.153,"end":10902.532,"text":"多幫這個國家的未來想一想,多幫我們下一代的未來想一想,希望真的能達成年金永續,不要把負擔交給下一代。」這是當時時代力量黨團的代表黃國昌委員陳志的呼籲。很可惜我沒有機會在他後面發言,不曉得他對這個內容是否繼續同。請問兩位部長、人長,你們知道當時黃委員有做這樣的一個立場的發言嗎?"},{"start":10904.363,"end":10905.884,"text":"年金是為了保障公務員退休生活,對嗎?"},{"start":10905.884,"end":10910.466,"text":"112年的公務人員平均實質的月退休金是58,500元。這遠優於大概在112年全年平均每月的經常性薪資45,800元。"},{"start":10933.41,"end":10960.246,"text":"比當年度的每月壽星階級的中位數4萬3千8來得高那麼如果以勞保退保合計的退休人員他們大概只有領到那些在職人員喔領到3萬8請問市部長這個數字正確嗎?這個數字是根據我們的資料庫所做的統計好那剛剛我提到家姐家母的情況退休教室的月退休目前是5萬9是吧?"},{"start":10962.233,"end":10970.837,"text":"平均中位數 平均數那麼我看到的一個資料新進的教師國小教師依學歷大概是從4萬6到5萬是起薪"},{"start":10977.591,"end":10992.067,"text":"教師教師一般的那個平均的那個月退休薪是比公務人員高一點是更高嘛那如果我們看到那退休公務員月退休薪五萬一嘛五萬一那麼新進公務員的月薪高考的四萬九到五萬三普考的是四萬一這也是事實嗎對"},{"start":10993.308,"end":11013.7,"text":"所以如果這樣說,如果說我們以今年度的統計資料,去年的統計資料,職場的新鮮人的薪水中位數是三萬一退休公務員有七成以上,現在退休的人有七成以上他們領的月退休分是五萬一而退休教師的月退休分的中位數是五萬九,是這樣沒有錯吧?所以如果說我們如果用這個退休制度來看"},{"start":11014.662,"end":11043.737,"text":"其實目前軍公教人員就我所熟悉的教育人員他們目前是比現職的教師、新進教師比現在職場上的現職的教師、新進教師甚至比現在在職的勞工都領得多,您同意嗎?應該是這個趨勢好,所以說我們所謂的目前我們往下看我們的退休人員如果我們所得替代率下降那為什麼他實際收入會增加呢?他實際領到的年金會增加,什麼原因?"},{"start":11044.662,"end":11050.432,"text":"因為主要是有隨著這個物價指數的一個調整我想這種 因為退休手勞是會調整的"},{"start":11050.981,"end":11051.141,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":11080.094,"end":11095.522,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智�"},{"start":11107.709,"end":11127.694,"text":"儘管退休人員的替代率是下降,他也同時受惠,是嗎?那麼還包括CPI物條也讓他受惠,好。但是現在國民黨跟民眾黨他們希望的呢,出水量增加,但是注水量不變,那麼可能會造成限職的人員、軍公交人員退休的時候,恐怕年紀已經用盡了,是不是有這個情況?"},{"start":11128.654,"end":11145.39,"text":"所以我們估算大概會提早四到五年提早四到五年所以請問一下我現在請教一下那麼部長政府這些從納稅人拿到的這些預算是要給退休人員還是給現職的公務人員"},{"start":11146.195,"end":11171.626,"text":"我想因為我們是實施基金所以基金本來要負擔自己應該負擔的責任那我想這是一個最正確維護基金永續經營的一個方式所以你的意思是說我們政府收當年度收來的稅金應該用給當年度為人民服務的公僕的軍公教人員至於已經退休的軍公教人員他用基金來維持他退休後有尊嚴的生活是這個原則沒錯吧是好那我們想看"},{"start":11172.446,"end":11200.592,"text":"好那接下來呢我先來看一下來人事長齁我大概年輕的部分問到這裡但是我還是很關注希望我們能夠對於現職的軍公教人員藥學保障這些所有的包括大專校院的兼任教師的中典費公職律師的職務合定工程員的預算提升方案國軍的一個地域加擠勞動檢查人員的風險加擠好這些所有的零零總總的是編在政府的哪些預算當中人事長"},{"start":11202.005,"end":11205.166,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":11232.053,"end":11254.554,"text":"事實上它也有固定的收入當然會造成一些排擠效果所以退休人員跟現職的軍工人員某個程度上如果我們的立法如果我們的處置不當會造成互相的排擠造成退休人員跟現職人員在爭奪我們政府從人民納稅錢拿來的有限的大品是這樣嗎"},{"start":11258.597,"end":11276.851,"text":"所以明年人種的施政計畫有辦法解決缺額,待遇有辦法解決讓業界,這是我之前都問過你的,拚了過明年搶財,要你去盤點離職率高、掉職率高、缺額人數多、缺額比例過高以自願排序尾段的並且快要改單待遇方案,人事黨你願意承諾好好地解決限職軍官官員,迫切需要解決問題嗎?你可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":11279.761,"end":11301.633,"text":"事實上我們經常性的都會去做前版的一個人力的籌劃還有待遇的一種報告所以我希望人事長今天你也是一起來列席做報告我希望你的職責就是要優先保障並提高我們現職軍公教人員包括有些圍牢的人員他們的待遇好不好這是我們責務部橫帶的事"},{"start":11303.194,"end":11325.262,"text":"我們來看一下軍人跟警校退休人員的比較軍人年資較短、退休年限制較低、妥得率較高可是相對的警校人員退休年資較長他與同等的公務員他的值等較高所以他的所得替代率跟其他公務員相同所以目前人種所定的這些知己辦法對現職人員的保障夠不夠"},{"start":11326.943,"end":11351.87,"text":"人事長這個基本上我們都有跟這些相關的機關有做充分的一個討論那我請司部長剛剛有一個問題你來不及講就是說年齡退休人員的平均餘命剛剛是你還是誰說因為軍警銷多數是男性所以他們的這個年齡應該跟公務人員的男性來對比是這個意思吧"},{"start":11352.718,"end":11376.421,"text":"對,因為他的主體是男性啦所以說如果我們現在看到一個數字說軍警校退休人員他們的平均移民較其他公務機關的人員來的短那是因為其他公務機關的人員是男女或者教育人員一起放來比而軍警校大部分是男性而我國的平均移民性別本來就是有差別你們告訴我女性多於男性多少年"},{"start":11376.641,"end":11393.317,"text":"我應該說女性好像現在是84歲左右多於男性幾歲多於男性76都超過78歲超過78歲嘛對那我們就知道為什麼軍警消公務退休這些人退休人員他的平均性命跟一般的公務人員來的相對於較低有沒有差到78歲"},{"start":11395.214,"end":11422.384,"text":"這個數字我想來講但是我印象中應該有差到這樣一個差不多就是跟性別的差別性別是有差別差不多就是跟性別的差別好明顯差別所以呢我這邊的再次的提醒拜託這個很快的人事長還是要提醒你我之前詢問過的長期缺額單位參考美軍的薪資制度以有效填補缺額增加續任意願就是我們過去的續薪方式都是以值續薪希望你會參考以薪續職可以去研究一下嗎"},{"start":11423.845,"end":11449.896,"text":"目前已經有在做這樣的研究好那下一個很簡單的齁那麼我之前呢也包括看到全序部的書面報告也看到人總共同研議各機關應該包括各權責主管機關對於限職人員包括非薪資以外的實物實體的物品比如說住宿是不是能夠給予他們這些更多的一些在職時候的福利兩位這個應該是人事長這邊全序部這邊是不是都可以一起來支持"},{"start":11451.277,"end":11479.616,"text":"實際上今年的三月我也跟司部長一起到屏東地區我們有去針對偏遠地區的大概他裡面會有兩種樣態一個是教育人員基本上都會有提供住宿反而是一般公務人員沒有那這個部分我們也是在檢討看看要如何來改進好所以呢現職軍公教人員人事總書要加油那全庶部這邊以些修法的部分我不曉得這些部分跟全庶部有沒有關聯"},{"start":11480.716,"end":11508.439,"text":"這些部分原則上如果是福利事項因為剛剛談的那些都是廣業福利事項是歸人總來負責那如果縫擠的部分才是歸全區部這邊來負責我希望包括公務人員的縫擠法的修法建議還有公務人員加擠給予的辦法的修法建議請兩個部會共同合作來努力的提高跟保障我們限制軍公教人員尤其是圍牢辛苦的人員的待遇好嗎不管是薪資或者是實體的待遇"},{"start":11509.096,"end":11533.947,"text":"那我 我們基本上是合作無間好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝任市長好 謝謝鐘召委那下一位我們請林思明委員發言好 謝謝主席我們請任市長還有我們權敘部麻煩任市長和權敘部長委員長是 任市長跟部長首先請教"},{"start":11538.991,"end":11561.97,"text":"我先講總統的一段話給大家知道賴清德總統他在擔任行政院長的時候他在2019年在台大有一場演講他對於年金改革的議題他表示說年金改革當然不可能回到從前了但是如果有受到衝擊的話必要應該做一些調整"},{"start":11564.013,"end":11590.226,"text":"所以我想請教兩位對於賴總統這一番話就是說年金如果有必要的話要做調整那你們的看法如何尤其對於我們今年七月我們首次的年金改革五年檢討出爐所以你覺得目前我們的年改的成效如何有哪些問題可以改善去呼應賴總統的當時在擔任行政院長他所說的這個話"},{"start":11590.606,"end":11611.153,"text":"我跟委員簡單的一個報告確實我們在去年有做五年根據法律做五年度的那個調整報告那調整報告是建立了一套機制那最後評估結果是說因為年金的財務還是非常嚴峻所以呢我們會持續來觀察這個事情所以我想所以你完全不贊成他講的所謂的微調的一個看法"},{"start":11612.574,"end":11617.675,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等一）"},{"start":11639.48,"end":11646.044,"text":"刀刀劍鼓了你認為還不夠嗎?刀刀劍鼓了你認為還不夠嗎?所以我覺得你們實際上根本沒有在實際上去了解我們所有公務人員的心聲"},{"start":11663.034,"end":11666.905,"text":"現在物價調漲現在所有的包含我們的這個醫療的就醫的這些這個費用"},{"start":11670.58,"end":11672.662,"text":"實際上真的要到一個檢討的一個的時間已經到了看了兩千多億的嘛"},{"start":11699.369,"end":11699.769,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":11718.418,"end":11739.384,"text":"法律本來就講說最後政府會負責政府要負最後責你認為會破產嗎因為所有參加基金的人跟政府要一起共同先一起來努力負擔這個責所以我們贊成年改但是你要有一個限度當我們的人民我們的退休公務人員他的基本的一個生活保障受到很嚴重的衝擊的時候因為社會的變遷"},{"start":11741.701,"end":11768.561,"text":"你就要做調整啊我現在不曉得為什麼你們到現在還不願意鬆口一直認為說會剝奪什麼現代的這個公務人員他們未來在這個基金裡面會去從他們的這個薪水裡面拿錢政府要負最後的責任嘛你要照顧的這些公務人員是當初他進來公務體系你對他的承諾嘛政府可以這樣子嗎完全違反信賴保護原則"},{"start":11770.066,"end":11794.87,"text":"我跟委員報告這個當初這個一百零零七年通過這個這個年改法案我想現在法務這當然是另外一例所以我們都所以我們剛才跟你講我們並沒有反對年改但是年改要有一個限度到目前要檢討了啦到檢討的時候已經到了啦所以你們還口口聲聲說這個是要保障公務人員我不曉得年改不走回頭路現在的牌子怎樣寫"},{"start":11795.646,"end":11798.667,"text":"三）委員賴清德等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文賴清德等19人擬具"},{"start":11824.178,"end":11824.658,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":11849.653,"end":11875.18,"text":"這個會造成就是說你雖然說會隨公務人員的調薪也對我們的退休公務人員的他的相關的退休金也會做調整做微調但是我們他砍的幅度是非常大的我們現在覺得說你現在砍到一個程度你就不應該再砍了我現在意思是這樣就砍夠了沒有你不要再跟我講什麼這個調薪不調薪的問題這原本就是你要去做調整的嘛這是原本他權力的保障嘛"},{"start":11876.571,"end":11905.464,"text":"現在是說你砍夠了沒有?砍到百分之六十七點五了啦。現在到目前為止。你剛才提到兩千多億啦齁。你們都提出長篇兩千這個很健康的砍。這些公務人員都還生活不下去了啦。你還說很健康的砍。要不然你也會老。你會遇到一樣的問題啦。我相信你的整個想法又跟現在不一樣啦。"},{"start":11906.721,"end":11907.402,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":11929.4,"end":11956.341,"text":"今天署長沒來當然是主任你來我還是就叫你啦年改後我們的警察緩退新陳代謝困難出現基層警力老化警力斷層的警訊監察院在108年現在已經113年5年前的12月17號就提出調查報告要求內政部警政署行政院人事行政總署徹底檢討並研磨改善"},{"start":11957.902,"end":11972.552,"text":"請問現在研磨改善的內容大概是怎麼樣各位委員報告其實我們現在陸陸續續在招生我們每年幾乎招生兩到三千年的基層監力所以陸陸續續已經有在遞補新的能力了"},{"start":11974.073,"end":12001.731,"text":"另外,立法院在今年3月20日也發函檢訟警察人員年金制度檢討續處情形及軍公教人員年金制度檢討資訊公開事宜。其中對於年改制度調整認為影響層面廣泛,尤其要將警察人員與一般公務人員及其他圍牢職務人員脫鉤。"},{"start":12003.452,"end":12028.07,"text":"而要提高他的所得替代率有做出這樣的一個建議請問你們對這個建議有什麼看法這部分我們警政署因為畢竟這是考試院縣政執掌所以我們會積極協調相關的單位你是否對於我們的警察人員消防人員還有危牢的職務人員能訂定特別的退休所得替代率你贊成嗎"},{"start":12029.228,"end":12049.943,"text":"以我們立場,照顧警察同仁,其實政府一直都很照顧警察同仁,相關的服務一帶我們都比,是有比較,又有一般的公務人員。雖然涉及跟人事總處有關,跟全序部有關,但是我站在你們是警政署主管機關的一個立場,對於警察人員退休之後他們生活的保障,你認為還要這樣刀刀劍骨嗎?"},{"start":12052.966,"end":12070.165,"text":"當然啦以我們個人立場希望我們能夠政府再對我們警察﹖所以我們認為你們站在你們警察的一個主管機關的立場你要更加的保護你們警消的相關的人員好不好希望你們要大力的在政府部門為他們發聲"},{"start":12071.346,"end":12081.737,"text":"支持年金改革,反對年金,讓年金改革要走一個適當的路,不要再往下砍了。"},{"start":12097.833,"end":12099.862,"text":"事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13條條文宣告。"},{"start":12104.554,"end":12104.574,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":12135.334,"end":12150.081,"text":"這下不只是國家照顧不到公務人員,我想連現任的公務人員也都連帶被拖累,甚至對於年度總預算的編列也出現很大的衝擊。我想在改革下,財政的效益當然是顯而易見。"},{"start":12152.302,"end":12157.443,"text":"2016到2023軍公教人員節省的經費全部役注在退輔基金高達2774億另外我們有撥補294億役注專戶薪資所造成的缺口"},{"start":12166.647,"end":12184.805,"text":"那如果修法提前來停止替代率再逐年調降那我想退撫基金再幾年下來將減少億柱約2800億那隨著退撫基金可運用的投資金額減少那我想投資的收益會隨之遞減那我想這些版本的修法"},{"start":12185.706,"end":12214.861,"text":"很明顯啦就想要進一步來脫垮國家的財政我覺得是一個相當不負責任的修法那我想既然國家要對公務人員來照顧那這個修法的方向顯然一定不是全序部所贊同的所以要請教部長全序部站在照顧公務人員的立場是不是可以說明一下停止退休所的替代率再逐年降低是不是會影響全體公務人員的權益"},{"start":12215.541,"end":12215.761,"text":"財務的永續經營嚴重影響"},{"start":12240.482,"end":12260.109,"text":"所以其實我們有關當年的年金改革修法司法院也曾做出憲法解釋肯認修法的核限性那若依據釋字第782號的解釋當年備受國民黨質疑的所謂的法律不溯及寄往原則信賴保護原則以及比例原則"},{"start":12261.129,"end":12264.531,"text":"年金改革修法合憲,肯定年金改革的合憲以及它的必要。所以我想這次的修法將可能打翻過去我們在改革上所做的努力,特別是影響國家財政的穩健。所以之前前副總統陳建仁為了"},{"start":12287.345,"end":12287.886,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":12310.751,"end":12335.678,"text":"可是我們看到這次的修法不但有可能將打破這項的保障那有可能在拖累我們下的世代所以我想要請教部長就在釋字第782號解釋肯認當年修法合憲的結果這個結果下你怎麼來看就是這一次違反世代正義修法的合憲性"},{"start":12337.796,"end":12365.736,"text":"我想當初年改已經經過大法官會議的解釋所有的改革措施基本上都是具有合憲性包括性愛保護我想那是一個最大一個大家很概念也因為他要創造更大的公共利益社會利益都認為合憲那如果這一次有一些提案說想要再重新討論我想是立法委員的執掌我們是尊重但是建議這個應該叫再尋求社會的多次的共識來一起討論我想會是比較穩當的做法"},{"start":12365.896,"end":12367.957,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":12405.64,"end":12433.552,"text":"好謝謝主席那各位我們今天列席的各單位的首長還有我們媒體先進今天在場的各位好朋友大家早齁那我們有請我們司部長麻煩部長好部長午安好委員午安好今天我們就這個22個版本齁那委員所提出的部分對於公務人員退扶法及任用法進行這個併案審查齁那公務人員為我們國家"},{"start":12435.453,"end":12451.916,"text":"很重要的一個服務的人群政府對於限職的這個退休人員的待遇都應該很平的兼顧那公務人員退服這個相關的撫蓄制度的穩健則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關的改革"},{"start":12453.157,"end":12474.137,"text":"過去我們的這個退伏基金曾經因為根本性的問題而面臨即將破產的一個危機在馬政府的時期也曾經提出要推動年金改革不過最後未能完成這個修法直到2016年2016年的這個蔡政府上任之後才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策"},{"start":12474.557,"end":12492.399,"text":"透過制度的變革來解決為月退休金、啟資年齡偏低、所得替代率偏高等問題。當時部長您也在人事總署服務,充分的參與到推動年金改革的這個方案的整個過程。"},{"start":12493.48,"end":12521.801,"text":"那提案的委員現在所提出的這個修法主張和理由相信部長您應該感到非常的熟悉那我想先就教部長您認為2018年以來現行的這一套制度實施的這個成效為何我想跟委員報告他對整個基金的財務健全來講真的是有很大的幫忙因為他達成了至少牟利達成當初的一個方向希望能夠延後一個世代"},{"start":12522.779,"end":12524.519,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":12544.619,"end":12545.459,"text":"實施改革的必要性"},{"start":12571.808,"end":12572.83,"text":"我個人是主張"},{"start":12591.389,"end":12616.584,"text":"還是繼續讓他走完這個改革的方式因為到118年以後大概就停止這個調降所的替代率那大概在那個部分未來我們的財務就以這個估算來講是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年好那我們這次的這個修法有一個重點是要提前停止這個退休所的替代率再繼續逐年遞減就剛剛部長您說這個到118年才會停止"},{"start":12621.047,"end":12634.901,"text":"那當年這個年金改革所提出的這個10年緩降的措施應當是為了要減輕衝擊的一個力道那透過橫頻考量來作為制度的調整舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題"},{"start":12636.772,"end":12651.716,"text":"如果即刻停止這個退休所得替代率這個降低基金是不是會又面臨再一次破產的一個危機?我只可以委員包我們估算大概如果我們真的就停止的話那未來大概我們會減少2800億的這個億注"},{"start":12655.057,"end":12655.157,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":12676.986,"end":12693.974,"text":"也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化健全化還有永續化的這個方向來發展那我還是要請教部長就是說未來我們應該要如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的一個目標"},{"start":12696.195,"end":12721.33,"text":"我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資能夠讓它增加投資效益我想這方面都是我們一起共同來努力增加投資的一個效益那我們在這一次的修法當中有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限"},{"start":12723.251,"end":12742.128,"text":"我們站在這個照顧退休者的這個角度來看是不是應該要著重於實際領到的這個金額尤其是我們看到這次全區區部所提出的相關付表顯示我們目前的這種平均月退休金大部分都在五萬塊以上是否能夠維持基本的一個生活需求我想因人而異"},{"start":12743.109,"end":12769.041,"text":"而且現職的這個人員待遇之間他們橫平性也能夠再進行相關的討論我想請教部長是若我們依照現行的這個制度持續來調整退休所得替代率會不會降到比其他的國家還低還是說我們因為計算的方式不同這個名目上的這個60%已經沒有反應實質的這個替代率了"},{"start":12769.301,"end":12786.967,"text":"我想即使名目上維持在60跟OECD國家的平均值事實上都還是高一點更何況名目上60%實質上並不是60%比其他國家還高對 都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右"},{"start":12788.899,"end":12814.869,"text":"好 那我們這個物價通膨的這個因素確實也是存在這也是一些退休人員所擔心的那短期物價的這個波動也會影響到民生的這個經濟應該要有穩健合理的一個調整機制加以保障維持退休所得的實質購買力那全序部目前是透過什麼樣的機制來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的一個衝擊"},{"start":12815.729,"end":12830.608,"text":"根委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%"},{"start":12832.23,"end":12832.951,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":12850.144,"end":12876.951,"text":"從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力證面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對抗公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":12878.443,"end":12897.212,"text":"我們新晉人員都已經實施那個專戶制了所以專戶制跟我們現在討論這個基金是獨立的所以對現職人員來講新晉的人員來講大概是112年新晉人員他不會受我們今天討論的一個東西的影響就是說純粹就退休金來講對新晉的就不會受影響因為他應該實施專戶制"},{"start":12898.553,"end":12923.047,"text":"好,那我們大家都知道啦,下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年台灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退府基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代"},{"start":12924.681,"end":12952.615,"text":"所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全區部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金呢能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論"},{"start":12954.443,"end":12973.428,"text":"那我想部長今天一個早上到現在我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健、橫貧的一個做法那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標"},{"start":12974.488,"end":13003.291,"text":"但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們後續可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障"},{"start":13004.231,"end":13021.305,"text":"這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個這個案件好謝謝謝謝委員好那依照先前宣告我們現在休息下午一點繼續開會謝謝各位"},{"start":16288.971,"end":16308.231,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。下面我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答。謝謝主席。是不是可以麻煩有請我們的權敘部施能傑施部長。"},{"start":16309.483,"end":16333.396,"text":"公務人員退休撫卹基金管理局陳局長陳局長那還有我們的內政部消防署的鄭主任鄭主任三位好"},{"start":16335.819,"end":16346.521,"text":"第一個針對有關於公務人員在辦公室自殺身亡現在依法可不可以辦理因公服序"},{"start":16347.823,"end":16376.302,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在有一個程序喔任何因公腐衰都是由機關提報以後送到部裡面那部裡面會有專案小組這一項的做法是這樣阿由專案小組來認定是OK好但是我還是得人補充報告過去個我們自殺一般是就當成病故死亡阿是是是立場是這樣講的我們接下來往後看阿因為讓整個社會阿都非常難過非常悲憤阿"},{"start":16377.659,"end":16401.951,"text":"我們勞動部勞發署北分署的公務員因為在職場遭受了霸凌不幸輕生了當時在11月19號的時候我們的勞動部說他們肯定他的勞苦奉獻會給他勞動部勞動獎章當然給他勞動獎章"},{"start":16408.129,"end":16433.945,"text":"此時此刻還有什麼意義?」大家或許都會有這個問號勞動部進一步說會向考試院爭取認定因公傷亡的公務員撫蓄補償那目前勞動部的這個案子送到考試院沒有?我的意見至少我們部裡面沒有接到那針對勞動部說"},{"start":16436.769,"end":16465.097,"text":"他要去爭取認定因公傷亡部長您的看法如何我跟委員報告我想這是一個法制的一個程序他只要送來我們就會開會討論所以完全按照委員會的討論對委員會討論是不是要本於法律對是本於法律嗎對來看一下公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第52條的規定自殺死亡比照病故或意外死亡認定這個就是剛剛部長"},{"start":16466.786,"end":16491.072,"text":"你所講的內容嗎?那所以現在勞動部是在講空話嗎?不是很清楚勞動部當初的一個講法不過我們站在部裡的立場就是有任何希望變成因公腐敘就由機關報來那我們組成狀態小組根據法律去審查我希望喔我們的考試院啊在進行這件事情的審議的時候"},{"start":16493.778,"end":16514.732,"text":"雖然在法條的規定上認為說如果是自殺的話他不會用因公撫卹自殺的話我們基本上是比照病故或意外死亡的方式來處理因為部長應該也很熟悉依照公務人員退休之前撫卹法第53條第56條的規定他撫卹"},{"start":16520.615,"end":16547.053,"text":"最後給他們遺族的金額事實上差異會蠻大的到底是因公還是在自殺的情況之下認為意外身故但我希望藉由這個質詢幫忙請命的事情是什麼幫忙請命的事情是說如果他不是因為自己其他的因素選擇結束自己的生命而是"},{"start":16548.274,"end":16565.545,"text":"他在工作的職場上面因為遭受到長官的霸凌沒有辦法接受這麼巨大的身心壓力而選擇結束自己生命的話這個時候來請部長看一下53條53條第二項第二款的規定"},{"start":16571.724,"end":16591.442,"text":"在辦公場所發生意外或危險事故或遭受暴力事件以致死亡。」我希望我們的權序部在審定我希望未來不要有相同的案子啦我希望未來不要有相同的案子但是恐怕要跟單純的自殺"},{"start":16594.292,"end":16610.858,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明環等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明環等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明環等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明環等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員吳明"},{"start":16620.051,"end":16645.606,"text":"在撫蓄事由的認定上面全序部必須要做出比較合理的認定部長您贊同嗎我想法律有一些不同的條款那我們在委員會討論的時候就根據機關送來的解釋或者相關的事證人然後由這個專案小組去處理我想這個委員應該也很能夠提亮我這樣的一個講法當然啦我只希望"},{"start":16647.068,"end":16668.629,"text":"勞動部不是只會對外講空話講漂亮話就要落實做好對於不幸往生這位年輕的公務員遺族的保障這個是我質詢的重點等你們認定出來結果出來了以後看是不是可以適時的讓"},{"start":16672.113,"end":16700.547,"text":"本委員會的委員大家知道你們認定的基準認定的結果最後是什麼這樣應該沒有問題吧等我們這個案子送來一定會按程序處理來接下來請消防署的同仁我上次在開公聽會的時候我問說因為我們目前公務人員保障法下面所設的安慰辦法訂得太爛了"},{"start":16702.193,"end":16727.781,"text":"十年都沒有修啊所以很多基層的警消事實上他們是要爭取把他放到治安法裡面那消防署不肯消防署說啊我們在消防法裡面設專章來保護他們的安全那我們11月的時候消防法修正三讀通過那我們總統日前也公告"},{"start":16728.641,"end":16746.812,"text":"但問題是施行細則由你們消防署來定我上一次針對於警消同仁權益的保障召開公聽會的時候你們消防署的同仁跟我說施行日期要等到五年要等到五年這個計畫有沒有改變"},{"start":16747.742,"end":16749.623,"text":"在我這一場公聽會舉辦完了以後我在"},{"start":16770.148,"end":16796.843,"text":"考試委員同意權行使的程序上把這件事情正式的拉上檯面以後第二天我看到內政部急急忙忙發了新聞稿說六個月內會修正相關的執法同步施行所以現在行政院針對有關於消防法的保障現在六個月就可以公告施行了對不對"},{"start":16797.995,"end":16798.616,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16811.707,"end":16835.641,"text":"可能也知道知識體大五年以後才施行到底是一個什麼概念有很多人在社會上面大家都沒有辦法接受發了新聞稿說六個月要施行這件事情就要說到做到我希望消防署要能夠把這樣子的立場清楚的跟內政部跟行政院表達可以嗎"},{"start":16837.262,"end":16843.355,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案。接下來請教一下我們這個退府基金的局長"},{"start":16847.065,"end":16876.345,"text":"之前全序部在今年3月的書面報告因為我們在去年7月1號的時候新進的公務同仁我們都從確定給付制改採成確定提撥制了用個人退休金專戶因此退撫基金的這個水庫裡因為沒有新的錢可以流進來所以就必須政府要去撥補那個時候全序部所提出來的書面報告"},{"start":16878.425,"end":16893.11,"text":"針對有關於撥補的額度有十年、十五年、二十年三種不一樣的方案。你看我們如果分二十年撥補會比分十年撥補政府會多付710億這個是全巨部的報告應該沒有錯吧?是嗎?但問題來了"},{"start":16901.141,"end":16924.09,"text":"我們基層的軍公教啊就出來抗議啊行政院為什麼沒有依照十年的方案啊撥補退輔基金可以啊是豬友分年撥補這個都一定是按照法律來做只是撥補的期層呢當然站在"},{"start":16925.656,"end":16951.185,"text":"全區部跟我們有一個監理會會期待說越快撥補越好那我們就把根據那個10年的錢送到行政院行政院會在總預算裡面去討論那我想很多單位都跟行政院要錢就行政院綜合考量那最後呢大概今年明年也開始要選擇用是20年的那個錢撥補進來所以我想過程是這樣一個所以未來都還是用20年撥補是不是我們會希望行政院未來至少就是用這個為最低的底線應該這樣講"},{"start":16953.105,"end":16978.039,"text":"來我為什麼請局長上來我們來看一下審計部一百一十二年度中央政府總決算副主單位決算的審核報告在這個審核報告當中在這個審核報告當中我上面寫拒付拒付其實就是你們局裡面付的你們局裡面付的是什麼已經召開政府編列預算撥補公教人員退府基金執行事宜會議"},{"start":16979.74,"end":16991.425,"text":"學術部及教育部依該會的決議每年度應該撥補公教人員的額數分別是194億跟123億合計317億這個是10年的撥補方案嗎?沒有錯這是補補裡面的回覆那你們回覆說未來會依照會議的決議繼續辦理現在我的問題就來了就是說我從審計部的報告裡面看到"},{"start":17007.21,"end":17028.647,"text":"事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12條條文修正草案案案。netesi, 你們會議的決議是要依照10年撥補這是你們給審計部的報告但是實際上面在做的又是分20年撥補所以我是想要利用這個機會請教一下這到底是怎麼回事我想跟委員報這就像很多行政機關在編列總預算的時候各機關都有想要這麼多錢"},{"start":17034.011,"end":17036.232,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第16條條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":17055.576,"end":17076.113,"text":"會議的決議分十年撥補嗎?然後到行政院了以後改變成二十年撥補嗎?我還是想這是正確行政院是這樣的考量不過我還是想講這是總預算的編制的權在行政院我事實上只希望利用這次詢答的機會讓大家知道問題的關鍵在哪裡因為你如果選序部也好"},{"start":17078.052,"end":17099.164,"text":"退府基金的管理局也好都是按照會議的決議提上去的話那問題的關鍵就在行政院問題的關鍵如果在行政院問你們考試院對你們也不公平因為我只要確認你們當初的確是按照會議的決議給提上去的只是到行政院按照部長的說法他們有不一樣的考量"},{"start":17100.609,"end":17117.003,"text":"對吧我想應該行政院他會確保這個基金還是要分年撥補這是沒有問題只是他的速度因為在總預算的規模下他覺得他有他的一個算一個方他一定確保這個基金那個該撥補的他一定會撥補因為喔上一次這一些"},{"start":17122.301,"end":17138.1,"text":"老施阿全教總的朋友們召開記者會的時候事實上就有提出阿這樣子的呼籲對行政院做這樣子喊話事實上也有執政黨的立委一起參加那場記者會贊成這樣的看法"},{"start":17139.014,"end":17158.363,"text":"那讓大家知道關鍵在行政院整體預算的調配上這樣他們知道問題的關鍵跟問題的核心在哪裡這個是我希望在這一次詢答的時候能夠去釐清的問題啦好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們下一位請吳思耀委員發言哈囉 要立碼給我只有你一個碼對 只有你一個碼"},{"start":17178.78,"end":17179.325,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17189.215,"end":17209.801,"text":"年金改革不走回頭路世代正義不能開倒車如果今天快速的審查沒有公聽會直接處理那對於很多利害相關人的權益沒有辦法被多元的發聲那當然民進黨組黨這樣子的法案因為我們支持改革要永續"},{"start":17211.081,"end":17237.766,"text":"那民眾黨的巴西在立法院就成為這個議案非常關鍵的支持力量到底民眾黨要站在挺改革還是反改革只是蠻可惜的過去在時代力量的時候的黃國昌委員他對於當時蔡英文總統啟動的年改方案他大聲的踏法認為民進黨改的不夠多"},{"start":17238.886,"end":17260.426,"text":"正義的實踐不夠快。」所以我剛剛聆聽了前一位黃國昌總召他的發言作為民眾黨的召集人我非常期待我一直試圖努力在他剛剛的發言裡頭能夠聽到民眾黨會延續他們最重視年輕人他們要實踐世代正義我2024的黃國昌跟2016的黃國昌是一樣的立場"},{"start":17265.638,"end":17279.339,"text":"道歉,跟2012、2013的時代力量的黃國昌應當是一樣的立場。那非常遺憾剛剛他的發言我沒有聽到民眾黨對於這幾個修法到底"},{"start":17280.919,"end":17295.725,"text":"能不能夠支持民進黨長期來的改革主張是不是能夠來阻卻共同的來擋下這種讓所得替代率終止然後可能殃及我們退府基金破產"},{"start":17297.116,"end":17316.669,"text":"我非常期待聽到民眾黨委員的正義之聲但他顯然沒有但我尊重每一位委員的發言畢竟政黨會換立場可能也會換只是我認為非常的遺憾我現在所念的這些話"},{"start":17318.137,"end":17341.12,"text":"董事長您同意嗎?年金制度好比一列行駛中的火車,各種年金制度的破產就像是前方的一個懸崖。身為總統不能做事不管,不能把問題留給下一代,也不能留給下一個總統,再困難年改一定要做,您同意嗎?我非常同意,那時候我在大學教書,我知道年改對我衝擊是很大的。"},{"start":17341.693,"end":17348.517,"text":"所以您也認為為了下一代大家都要能夠一起來實踐世代正義這是誰說的話呢這是馬英九總統2013年1月30我所引用的是總統府的新聞稿"},{"start":17358.897,"end":17372.04,"text":"羅志強委員現在是立委當時他就是總統府的副秘書長我相信馬英九總統記者會在宣誓這樣立場的時候羅志強就在身旁下一頁"},{"start":17373.752,"end":17396.891,"text":"我國年輕制度有三個缺點經費不足行業不平世代不均所以我們要務實提出可行的改革方案年輕制度影響到社會當中許多人的未來今天不做明天會後悔當時也身為大學教授的您也聽到了馬英九總統的宣誓這是他11月21號在2012年的新聞稿"},{"start":17400.635,"end":17404.391,"text":"所以我非常同意今天全序庫做的報告裡頭的一句話"},{"start":17407.608,"end":17435.364,"text":"整個年改是跨越藍綠執政都要永續前進我非常同意這是跨越政黨因為這是世代正義所以馬英九做不到的民進黨做到了2018年7月1號年改終於完成立法院的修法正式上路那個時候我是第一任的立委蔡嬌我記憶非常的深刻為了"},{"start":17436.657,"end":17452.535,"text":"請年改我們立委連審查議案要進入立法院行經的過程都要受到非常多發動抗爭不理性的這些朋友對我們施以的暴力威脅"},{"start":17453.991,"end":17455.792,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":17469.957,"end":17481.16,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":17499.522,"end":17521.388,"text":"加上我們連兩年的撥補294億加總起來是我們合計挹注了3068.6億我想就教於部長今天聽您口頭說明的時候我想再釐清一下我們扣除政府兩年的撥補目前2774億主要挹注於退府"},{"start":17522.369,"end":17528.291,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":17546.69,"end":17554.53,"text":"那麼換言之真的去動用到退休公務員的那個月退休金的部分就很少"},{"start":17555.37,"end":17580.582,"text":"到目前為止其實還很少扣到很少扣到所以這是事實所以現在很多退休的軍工叫出來說已經影響剝奪了我的生活基本所需是這樣嗎我們的統計數字現在七成大概七成左右的退休人員大概有月退休金額5.1萬5萬1左右那這個每一個人當然生活需求不一樣不過純粹"},{"start":17582.122,"end":17605.691,"text":"五二一大概是現役的公務同仁的八成薪吧?差不多平均值嘛平均值我講的是平均值那我想應該這樣講我還是要強調一件事情退休制度的設計的退休所得是在照顧個人是退休者以退休者做思考是以退休者延伸的家庭或是其他的各式各樣的一個其他生活"},{"start":17606.138,"end":17609.299,"text":"私部門的勞工朋友平均薪水四萬五千八對不對"},{"start":17634.206,"end":17635.607,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":17653.166,"end":17666.961,"text":"但是我們同樣要保障現在成為擔任國家的中間分子的現役公務人員還有下一代更多的公務同仁他們的權益我們來看OECD國家"},{"start":17668.424,"end":17673.949,"text":"實質退休資遣撫卹法第六十四條條文修正草案案。台灣現在是逐步的我們希望十年"},{"start":17685.699,"end":17703.865,"text":"從七八成可以緩降到六成但以你們的報告告訴我們因為現在我們是用本俸兩倍來作為分母換言之目前如果停在今年大概是67.5但是那是明目上實質上的月退是多少他的所得替代率就是八成"},{"start":17708.166,"end":17720.714,"text":"所以換言之在今年我們所有退休公務同仁他的所得替代率一公位可能過期的薪水是十萬他現在一公位因為他退休了他可以領到八萬讓我們所有的公務同仁哇 世代正義在哪裡我們看下一頁"},{"start":17730.953,"end":17758.792,"text":"高齡少子化我早上也說了各國的年金制度一直在檢視一改二改三改所以今天在野黨的委員要提出修法來檢視我們上路六年的年改可以當然可以可是國際的趨勢是越改因為高齡少子化各國都在面對年輕人要去負擔更沉重的負擔也包括國家的財政受到很大的漢革跟影響"},{"start":17759.813,"end":17780.786,"text":"所以以希臘跟法國2010年一起啟動年改2014年法國二改2016年希臘二改然後到2023年去年法國跟希臘同時進行第三次的年改是越改越嚴我的說法正確吧我看外電的報導確實很多國家是不"},{"start":17785.228,"end":17804.22,"text":"所以說如果台灣的年改可以檢討真的可以檢討但是就要符合真實的國家能夠負擔的那個能力絕對不是越改越鬆我再佔用一點點時間我們來到才化法那一頁"},{"start":17805.68,"end":17811.005,"text":"剛剛黃國昌委員說他認為你們原本希望用10年來撥補我們的退府基金他認為為什麼最後變成20年您的說明非常的清楚每個部門去跟中央主計要錢的時候我當然希望要更多"},{"start":17824.736,"end":17849.027,"text":"但是因為要分給所有的部會大家都有需求所以最後是用20年來撥補所以我們這兩年是撥了294億嘛 對不對如果如果才化法就是新生事物6000多億被搬走了政府的財政負擔更重了而且這些退休撫蓄的部分是中央來承擔的"},{"start":17850.848,"end":17859.105,"text":"那麼我們有能力做到穩定的撥補預算給退府基金嗎?這個新生事物對於未來的撥補您的預測是什麼?"},{"start":17861.036,"end":17887.658,"text":"所以可能就越撥越少所以我們的基金永續就越來越遙不可及更可能造成我們基金破產的年限就會提前所以我也請提案再修正我們年改法案的在野黨委員們要多多思考當你們一手修財化法要掏空中央國庫的收入"},{"start":17890.461,"end":17902.997,"text":"另一首卻又要求改年改然後要終止年金改革要增加政府財政的loading然後剛剛民眾黨的委員又要求20年撥補太慢了要10年撥補這不是鬼打牆嗎?"},{"start":17906.642,"end":17924.201,"text":"一手挖錢一手討錢我認為就財政論財政這個會期是預算會期我們要合理來看看中央有多少可用的財源我再一次說如果政府做得到擴大對於退休人員的照顧我絕對支持"},{"start":17925.783,"end":17943.793,"text":"但是政府做得到同樣也要照顧保障現役的公務人員這才是世代正義所以這個修法我們一定要審慎以對謝謝主席才是您願意召開公聽會我希望公聽會能夠越多越好當初馬英九總統的時候全國開了124場座談會我們不應當為快而快為休而休抱歉佔用了多一點時間謝謝主席謝謝部長"},{"start":17955.323,"end":17958.306,"text":"謝謝 下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝召委 有請我們司部長"},{"start":17979.375,"end":18005.608,"text":"副部長我想今天早上到現在也聆聽了很多啦從學者經歷過這麼多年改革完以後重新看到今天檢視這個提案又要走到過去的一個回頭路我相信你很多的一個感慨不管是從軍人的部分公教的部分反正就是三個部分裡面這個大法官會議其實也"},{"start":18006.408,"end":18008.949,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18032.216,"end":18037.54,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":18049.146,"end":18059.291,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":18070.998,"end":18079.181,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":18092.699,"end":18095.28,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":18117.079,"end":18121.78,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員"},{"start":18138.203,"end":18140.604,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":18166.038,"end":18166.218,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18190.111,"end":18193.853,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18219.731,"end":18228.773,"text":"這不通嘛 這就是所謂的世代正義的一個問題嘛那其他的在海黨的朋友他怎麼會不知道呢我們在2022年我們做過並提高反正這個一個提撥啊在今年一月份我們回應整個物價指數又調高了4%那你變成說總計政府提撥進口提高了6%那也就是說按照現行規範退休公務人員確實考量到消費物價指數去做一個調整"},{"start":18244.853,"end":18272.342,"text":"所以今天這個其他不同意見的朋友講這個就有點言過其實但是本席他特別指出來了就是說除非你認為說這一些退休金這個部分你認為它是一個遞延的一個工資否則你說債值的你說一個債值的調薪退休的也跟著這樣去做一個調薪的話"},{"start":18273.719,"end":18294.059,"text":"這個我難想像這個我聽了是真的有一個一頭霧水啊這普通的看完了沒有錯啦那個其實大法官已經解釋說退休金本來就不是低延工資啊你問我我也不認為退休金是低延工資啊那當然那裡面有一部分是優惠存款年資的補償等等國家提供的優待啊不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":18297.711,"end":18297.931,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":18321.004,"end":18321.264,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":18336.96,"end":18337.24,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18365.258,"end":18382.706,"text":"這個把他當成是一個對執政黨發起的一個功法其實大可不必這個反而是對未來世代的一個挑戰我覺得這是一個挑戰所以呢以今天來看的話我看到今天這修法的一個狀況這我對你感慨一定是萬千嘛阿不然我們想說那時候我們在說公務人員退休的制度收支本來不足的年度是2019基金用完是2031"},{"start":18392.35,"end":18401.581,"text":"交易人員的部分收支不足年度是2018,用完是到2029,均值的保溫率是2011就不夠,用完的算是2020,我們再改掉這樣,還要走回去,所以"},{"start":18409.229,"end":18410.749,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":18433.584,"end":18456.625,"text":"因為我也參與過這一段歷史那時候在學校也曾經知道這些事情那我知道這些改革本身它對任何一個當事人當然越退休所得都會減少但是我還是要講這個越退休所得的減少部分大部分是來自18%的優惠存款那這個是社會上有很大很大不一樣的看法"},{"start":18457.225,"end":18457.565,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18485.559,"end":18511.354,"text":"這一些不是國家要把它拿來亂花啦不是要把它拿來亂花同樣是依住在整個基金裡面我真的很擔心說現在去停止去調降所得替代率以後那你原本可以延長到整個退伍基金的一個運作到本來預計是到2051年嘛2051年那現在修法完了以後對整個國家財政的一個風險無底洞而且像剛剛我提到了"},{"start":18512.934,"end":18522.077,"text":"會跟另外一個世代在做挑戰。」這個我在這邊期待,各個政黨大家其實都要善思了。好,謝謝。好,下一位我們請楊瓊英委員發言。謝謝主席楊瓊英發言,邀請部長。"},{"start":18546.186,"end":18546.926,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":18573.168,"end":18596.958,"text":"讓退休者他的生活有基本的,就是說照顧他最基本的生活需要。非常好,剛剛您也特別回答了一點,本人非常認同,也就是以退休者為原則,這個對不對?對。好,所以他的目的在維持退休人員的晚年基本的生活,對不對?對。這也是善盡國家照顧老年生活的義務。"},{"start":18597.978,"end":18598.118,"text":"公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":18620.074,"end":18625.715,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18645.561,"end":18666.618,"text":"這是公務人員也就我們撫蓄基金最重要的原則跟誠信問題嘛對不對是不是對我們透過這個基金的方式能夠讓退休者能夠根據法律拿到應該有的這個好所以大家在說欸你十年撫卹你現在改為20年撫卹台電一下子一千億政府撫卹"},{"start":18668.148,"end":18669.288,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":18687.315,"end":18710.996,"text":"但是法例明文規定說那個因為新制實施的缺口政府必須要分年撥補所以不同的算法十年應該是說任何在行政機關都知道每一個部會都會提出說他需求的希望能夠有怎麼樣一個方式可是政府有一個最後的財政規模就這麼大他必須要統籌規劃做出最後決定所以他只是沒有採取十年他採取20年"},{"start":18712.898,"end":18738.645,"text":"所以你還是要延長嗎?你要把10年改為20年嗎?還是會繼續延長?還會繼續延長?我會說繼續撥補啦只是說他是用20年的一個方案當然當然當然那所以呢?所以我們的公務人員退休的人應該是很有榮耀嗎?這個國家所有的決策所有的執行都是公務人員都參與其中啊是不是?那要不要對他尊重?當然應該要尊重要不要對他承諾?"},{"start":18740.825,"end":18766.19,"text":"法律上要求我們要做的事情我們就是要努力去做到努力去做到來第92條明定考試院因會統行政院建立年金的這個制度監控的機制在五年內檢討他的一個制度設計跟財務永續發展那之後定期的去檢討什麼時候會提出我們在去年112年已經第一次做五年的檢討檢討報告"},{"start":18768.015,"end":18796.167,"text":"那在那次檢討報告裡面大概設定了幾個說未來那個觀察的幾個指標那根據這個指標去做檢討所以你的定期是以什麼年限為基準是以那個年金開始實施的107年所以112年做第一次那每5年就還是要檢討所以未來還是5年才做一次對對對這法律規定的事情對對對你可以10年改為20年那你現在還是一樣要與時俊俊你去研討一下因為訊息萬變"},{"start":18798.008,"end":18816.483,"text":"本期要請教來接下來本期要請教物價指數一直攀升我們也知道行政總署呢他有一個什麼他有一個編算高齡家庭的消費者物價指數跟一般的物價指數是不一樣的對不對你知道這個嗎我有看到這個報告"},{"start":18817.344,"end":18817.725,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18833.626,"end":18834.868,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":18850.328,"end":18866.425,"text":"所以目前三十七跟三十八條你要逐漸的去降低他的所得替代率那跟在職的人員來做整個的脫鉤就是你現在的這個論點嗎現在法律是這樣規定的是現在的執行方向嘛就法律這樣規定我們就這樣執行"},{"start":18869.094,"end":18869.394,"text":"律師部長律師部長律師部長"},{"start":18895.714,"end":18900.138,"text":"夠嗎?夠嗎?請說明。夠嗎?夠嗎?你會不會停止調降所的替代率?會不會?這個是你的理由,我們現在討論的是怎麼樣去照顧退休的人。"},{"start":18919.83,"end":18920.23,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":18935.317,"end":18961.43,"text":"退休資遣草案案 條整指標提高或四年才調整一次現在依法是這麼做所以本席要請教你是不是同意來修正累計成長率達到正負現在是五嘛那因為這樣的一個通貨情況那你是不是會啟動調整調整他在機制下修正為正負為2%"},{"start":18963.251,"end":18966.653,"text":"也就是與時近近來做隨時滾動性的調整。會不會有這個方向來討論?因為醫療的支出"},{"start":18979.54,"end":18998.502,"text":"我們在內容裡頭沒有討論到醫療的支出本區自己建議因為醫療的支出對於退休者來講他是一塊很大的壓力這個是要怎麼樣真正的照顧退休的公務人員這一塊醫療的支出是不是可以納入這個部分來因此來做討論"},{"start":18999.824,"end":19015.419,"text":"我跟委員報告醫療我們退休軍的制度設計呢都是以個人最低的一個生活需求醫療支出是所有國人同樣都要面到那應該是國家另外的政策必須要這不是國家另外的政策而是你說的我們要怎麼樣照顧退休者"},{"start":19016.491,"end":19031.968,"text":"所以你各項的因子你要真正對於這個退休者的基本生活哪裡所最需要的哪裡最需要的去拿出來這些因子來討論這才是能夠真正的來照顧退休的公務人員是不是"},{"start":19032.922,"end":19059.497,"text":"我想這些所有生活費用、醫療費用、各種費用總是會在CPI裡面會適當的出現,如果它提高的話CPI就會往上走。本身一個結論是……CPI的內容很多啊。所以你的因子如果沒有加入,你怎麼樣都沒有辦法去全面照顧啊。所以你又是在整個政策決策都有參與者,你可以更了解退休公務人員的需求嘛。對不對?你拼命的點頭,我要給你一個答案。"},{"start":19060.558,"end":19083.854,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件,在執政黨委員一直說,如果財化法修了給地方,那會影響的怎麼樣?而且甚至財化法給地方,地方執行不了。我要告訴你,你應該將你的基金要怎麼樣永續發展去思考,那地方的需求是什麼?比如說我們台中市要做三條捷運,我們的分配,我們還要配額款,"},{"start":19085.755,"end":19104.691,"text":"如果裁判法通過錢到我們的地方來我相信我們台中市政府盧秀月市長絕對絕對我們會做到淋漓盡致十全十美沒有那個騙民眾的說錢到地方執行不了的這一種論述是不正確的所以我也非常的希望因為"},{"start":19105.752,"end":19125.905,"text":"你參與了這麼多我非常的希望你能夠去冷靜去思考對於我們的原則真正照顧公務人員退休者的基本生活他們的因子要什麼應該拿進來共同討論這才是真正能夠落實照顧退休的公務人員的退休者是不是好謝謝委員好謝謝那現在我們請賴士葆委員發言"},{"start":19139.795,"end":19139.975,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19155.649,"end":19177.472,"text":"委員吳安來部長吳安吶這個我們大家都是學者出身吶我們就講一些講實際的數字吶吼你今天從頭到尾一直在講一直在講一句話我們聽了好幾次吼說如果stop here請問如果現在年改就stop here然後這樣子要提前多久破產"},{"start":19178.453,"end":19179.374,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":19193.715,"end":19195.096,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":19217.574,"end":19217.935,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":19228.717,"end":19233.401,"text":"你不要以為你部長在這裏人事長在這裏做官做伙多你不敢退啊你們的人不敢退啊新的人上不來啊都被你們擋住了你聽我講完都被你擋住了沒有位子去了被人事擋住了沒有位子去了就是這樣啊你擋住年輕的位子啦你知道嗎你這次這樣子"},{"start":19253.658,"end":19254.638,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":19282.761,"end":19286.992,"text":"現在教授薪水跟我那時候離開學校差不多沒有多少所以也是破產啦"},{"start":19291.445,"end":19299.252,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":19317.308,"end":19317.528,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":19342.27,"end":19343.991,"text":"財務部長昨天在立法院公開承諾絕對不會動所有的勞工一塊錢"},{"start":19371.408,"end":19373.771,"text":"政府負最後的責任很好沒有人反對請問你同意的話能不能用在公教人員可不可以政府負最終責任絕對不會倒一百四十年也不會倒今天才有意義今天站在這裡才有意義否則你都假說的司部長你都假說的還是會倒啊還是會倒啊"},{"start":19393.172,"end":19404.479,"text":"負擔公務人基金的最後一個責任但是我們要政府要不要負擔公務責任要不要法律是這樣規定的要不要法律本來就規定要不要如果要這樣子的話我們要窮盡各種可能性如果這樣子就不會倒啦"},{"start":19407.54,"end":19418.549,"text":"如果這樣永遠不會倒了我跟您報告這個案件財務上還是要自己先努力如果全部都是政府負擔自己最終責任就是所有納稅人一起大家來負擔責任當然是這樣子啊對不對你要了解為什麼勞動部長敢在那裡承諾說政府絕對負最終責任勞保絕對不會倒大家安心勞保早就倒啦"},{"start":19432.745,"end":19438.591,"text":"老保要不是補了兩千多億加上明年要補一千多億早就倒了他每年都要撥一千多億給老保不就對了老保已經倒了公務體系還沒有倒要到140年按照你們的算法"},{"start":19449.008,"end":19474.744,"text":"但是呢你剛才講了一句話啦政府負最終責任所以不會倒啊所以這叫假議題啦我想大委員這樣講議題可能不是科話啦當然是這樣子啊所謂政府負咱最終責任是指我們都要自然先努力讓這個機關永續經營就應該負自己的責任最後不得已呢才有政府負最終責任我想他法律的邏輯應該是這樣子啦"},{"start":19475.865,"end":19476.165,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":19500.564,"end":19503.886,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":19526.045,"end":19532.673,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":19543.266,"end":19545.909,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":19559.701,"end":19576.711,"text":"勞保可以每年補一千多億為什麼公務的退府基金到現在為止都還不需要政府撥補然後你不願意給他stop herestop here也只到一百三十五年距離現在也有十幾年的光景了你是在緊張什麼對不對所以這個東西扯太遠只剩下一個政治鬥爭你們現在這個讓軍公教很心寒的就是"},{"start":19587.591,"end":19589.72,"text":"獨厚勞工然後專門殺軍公教"},{"start":19592.475,"end":19604.926,"text":"我為什麼早上提了民進黨在過去的兩千年開始台灣真的大幅的民主化之後到現在二十從兩千年開始佔據二十五年的光景民進黨執政十七年軍公教都是大家的子民啊中華民國的子民不是說軍公教一定挺誰挺誰是部長這個東西要拿掉啦大家學者出身要講真話"},{"start":19618.777,"end":19619.037,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":19636.77,"end":19642.696,"text":"對我還講到大家先自己的機會責任也不夠就是政府要負最終的這個法律的規定政府要負最終的責任就是大家都不會倒你們一部講那麼多大家就安心了嘛啊那不都不會倒啦啊所以可以stop here不會倒啦差五年沒有差那麼多啦有差那麼多嗎沒有因為你為了這五年"},{"start":19662.134,"end":19662.695,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":19685.529,"end":19686.35,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":19713.824,"end":19729.881,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請施能傑部長請部長部長我先確認一下因為本席也非常關心在11月4號不幸離開的這個勞動部的無性公務人員的部分那11月20號勞動部前部長跟勞動部次長"},{"start":19734.15,"end":19740.1,"text":"稍開記者會向國人正式說明說他要頒發勞動獎章給這個無性公務人員並且來"},{"start":19744.815,"end":19765.871,"text":"請考試院這邊來要求來協助認定因公傷亡那到目前為止我們考試院都沒有收到相關的申請沒有我鋪裡面沒有收到這個案子這是打假球還是怎麼樣勞動部跟考試院有那麼不熟到我們這一個全國大家矚目的一個焦點那到現在一個多月過去了"},{"start":19766.471,"end":19776.007,"text":"十一月四號人家離開到現在十二月五號一個多月的時間結果到目前為止勞動部說要幫他來做相關的一個申請全部都沒有"},{"start":19777.094,"end":19801.472,"text":"這個我不能代替勞動部回答是那部長我想請教我們就你也瞭解這一個案件嗎對我瞭解如果說這個案件之後送到考試院的話我們會有什麼樣的一個處置法律上法律上本來規定我們鋪裡面一定會組成因公撫序的那個審查小組是我們就由小組來專業性的審查根據法律尤其是尤其是本席必須要再提醒喔"},{"start":19801.992,"end":19831.093,"text":"無論是公務人員撫卹法或是公務人員因公傷殘死亡慰問金的相關辦法其實都有執行公務公差在辦公場所猝死或者是導致死亡或者是積勞過度以致死亡對不對那在這個案件裡面在這個案件裡面其實我們都看得非常清楚在這個無性公務人員他其實長期遭受到不管是精神的言語的或者是相關的霸凌行為而且是直接來自於他的上級長官"},{"start":19832.301,"end":19851.413,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想您您剛講的就是我們審查了一個有一些條款要符合那個條款所以事實是怎麼樣子個案是怎麼樣子就需要有勞動部提供我們這個資料因為現在外界他已經點名了說要跟考試院爭取但到目前沒有收到有沒有需要說也跟勞動部問一下"},{"start":19852.193,"end":19879.872,"text":"今天能不能跟勞動部問一下這個案件我想不用我們高高在上等到說勞動部如果說勞動部要打假球你也要問勞動部說你們態度到底是為何不是說對外開部長次長開記者會告訴好像要幫這個無姓公務人員討公道結果實際上根本沒做部長能不能跟勞動部確認一下他什麼時候要送案進來我們來了解一下勞動部的狀況"},{"start":19881.687,"end":19900.405,"text":"本席會持續追這個案件我們也希望這不是只是為單一個人這是告中華民國政府告訴我們所有的霸凌案件第一不可以霸凌第二如果說真的有相關霸凌的話政府還是能夠有相當的保障跟後盾這是態度問題再來"},{"start":19902.418,"end":19929.135,"text":"部長剛剛賴委員也問了本席很想關心的也就今天我們所謂的這個退府基金的一個相關事宜我一直聽到你用幾個用詞以及在野黨執政黨的委員用護航的方式要永續不走回頭路年金改革要國家長遠發展對結果你開宗明義你們的報告在第四頁的修法議題一"},{"start":19930.396,"end":19948.494,"text":"就有講如果說真的停止現在的所得替代率降低的話那退撫基金你第一句怎麼說的財務永續能用盡年度會提早4到5年提早4到5年所以換言之不改的話我們用盡的年度"},{"start":19950.854,"end":19968.614,"text":"還是會用盡還是會破產沒有所有年金都要定期檢討我想全世界都是一樣只是我們達到140年這就是本席好那我請教一下我們政府會不會讓年金破產如果說假如現在都不變假設那個年度到了我們會不會讓他破產"},{"start":19971.892,"end":19987.421,"text":"法律有講說政府有最後的一個責任是政府有最後一個責任嘛所以是不是政府也不會讓他破產或我們會想盡辦法用其他的方式去代替或去其他辦法來協助不讓他破產"},{"start":19987.881,"end":19997.156,"text":"所以我們現在年金改革就是走到當然分年度調降還有其他的措施都還沒有都正在執行中我們就繼續來執行這個這是我們我講的就是在我們應該進的義務我們盡量先進這樣子"},{"start":20001.621,"end":20004.102,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":20026.707,"end":20046.069,"text":"合約的那一刻當我擔任公務人員那一刻的時候我的權利我的責任是幫國家做事不分黨派不分朝野只要政府在的一天我要幫政府我要幫國家做事幫人民做事但是政府的義務也是給我足夠的這個退休金來保障我的退休生活啊"},{"start":20046.75,"end":20068.224,"text":"但怎麼沒想到有一天突然間你107年的時候告訴說我的退休金抱歉我要把你給砍掉給你給減少而且你減少砍的還變成是你們自己規劃那如果你的減少你的砍是真的能夠讓整個基金永續無餘百年"},{"start":20069.468,"end":20069.728,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20087.045,"end":20110.81,"text":"都延長六年。」然後你跟我講是說到了那個時候政府會再去思考其他相關的方法來去做那你不就是講假的嗎?再者我再請教部長所謂勞保基金勞動部部長也有直接講撥補也是一種改革換言之這一位前勞動部長"},{"start":20112.557,"end":20135.675,"text":"他已經下台了但他在上任的時候的第一次質詢在未還委員會801會議室他的回答是他沒有打算要推動勞保改革他說撫卹也是一種改革換言之政府對待不同的族群其實有不同的方式來去做一個永續發展那這樣子的話不就是對於我們軍公教人員相對來說就是差別待遇嗎"},{"start":20136.075,"end":20144.975,"text":"我想委員在過去這幾年我們因為年金改了省下2700億都全數回到基金裡面去並不是進到政府的口袋"},{"start":20148.055,"end":20148.855,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20169.565,"end":20172.129,"text":"一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":20183.223,"end":20205.834,"text":"你剛講這些東西你都了解這給是教科書的一個這個版本回答但重點這裡是個別的退休公務人員你的責任跟義務當初你們怎麼跟人家講的然後結果你這樣改了然後結果你沒有辦法做永續基金改革沒有年金改革沒有辦法做永續永續這件事情其實是一個很大的重點"},{"start":20206.974,"end":20233.911,"text":"最後我想請教因為剛剛有很多委員也在討論也在關心是說這個10年20年的一個部分對不對那你有提到是說我們有提出來了但是請行政院來做這個審理的時候行政院以20年來計算我們這邊做了什麼努力在行政院編列總預算的時候因為不要忘記請容許本席提醒明年的中央政府總預算是創紀錄的新高3兆元以上"},{"start":20234.793,"end":20252.751,"text":"那既然我們都講說創新度的新高整個費用完全的提升那當然在審理在編列的時候應該會有一些預算是不是能夠把錢花在刀口上的有一些預算可能是各部門就已經要認為說沒有必要花費的"},{"start":20253.712,"end":20269.456,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員"},{"start":20284.075,"end":20284.576,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":20301.355,"end":20304.859,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":20326.198,"end":20341.21,"text":"其他部分宣傳費用我也要增加宣傳費用一次增加將近一倍然後結果我們對於所謂的這個軍公教相關的這些基金的撥補反而我們要選擇一個20年的方案"},{"start":20343.716,"end":20361.6,"text":"當家才知持家難啊!但我現在看到的就是民進黨政府持家這八年持家持得非常爛爛到我們的財政紀律不好所以導致於是說我們的錢沒有花在刀口上真正該用的不用不該用的拼命用這才是我覺得我們現在國家面臨到悲哀啊說實在話部長"},{"start":20365.41,"end":20392.006,"text":"尊重你過去是學者但本席要在這邊站在這邊很誠摯地講就是說在討論這個制度裡面不是跟這種執政黨的委員在這邊附和不要走回頭路對對對會永續對對對沒有啊其實如果說設計這個制度出來你根本沒有辦法達成這樣子你只是為了說2017年做的事情不願意再調整"},{"start":20393.459,"end":20393.679,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20423.519,"end":20424.66,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20439.773,"end":20462.171,"text":"當然有很多其他的因素但我必須要說有很多人到最後會卻步不想要投入公職考試的很大一個原因確實是因為年金改良他沒有想到政府這一個全中華民國最大的老闆最大的雇主也可以說話不算話也可以適時的撕毀我們過去簽的合約啊所以本期今天提出來諮詢只是要講"},{"start":20464.741,"end":20465.321,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":20509.118,"end":20521.827,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席是不是請那個施部長麻煩施部長議員好部長你好我想齁從2020年到2025年政府累計將撥補勞保3870億元那勞動部前部長這個何沛山說政府撥補勞保"},{"start":20533.596,"end":20535.877,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":20555.825,"end":20577.563,"text":"所有退休的軍公教的民眾裡面這些人的耳朵裡面格外的諷刺因為年金改革蔡英文前總統說現在不做馬上就會後悔那拖到現在賴總統執政後勞保年改一拖"},{"start":20578.755,"end":20582.578,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等一）委員"},{"start":20598.474,"end":20612.684,"text":"我跟委員報告因為老保的一個選擇是在行政院那我不是很清楚我在考試院的選區部所以那邊應該有他們一個規劃的一個方式其實齁頭到尾啊齁我們都知道"},{"start":20613.724,"end":20639.174,"text":"這是一場只針對軍公教那這個至於說這個勞的部分擱一邊因為勞很多人嘛一千多萬嘛那今天民進黨就是仗著叫砍殺軍公教那些其實齁他追溯喔對不對法律是不說既往的但是他已經退休然後你將他年金年年改年年砍"},{"start":20640.174,"end":20663.152,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體"},{"start":20668.937,"end":20674.118,"text":"御年御年御年御年御年御年御年御年"},{"start":20697.816,"end":20727.063,"text":"基金財務的一個沒有辦法永續所以從以前包括在這個107年以前就開始討論那現在勞保已經添了三千多億你怎麼不講都是年年補那以勞跟所有軍工教這樣是對他們是公平吧對不對因為你改革是全面性的改革你只有針對性的改革這樣叫做改革是嗎我是認為這是假改革"},{"start":20728.328,"end":20729.85,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":20745.925,"end":20746.485,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":20769.096,"end":20789.087,"text":"國民黨絕對不反對改革但是改革必須要在公平正義的方向去走過去的蔡政府到現在的賴政府高喊都是改革但是只有找軍公教來下手污名化軍公教製造階級的對立勞保改革卻遲遲到現在"},{"start":20791.616,"end":20793.437,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":20810.808,"end":20830.953,"text":"那草也要有共識共同來誠實面對承擔改革此外省紀部也認為勞保撥補的金額相較基金財務缺口能有限那建議勞動部重啟改革並研擬具體的可行這個方向長期財務的撥補這個計畫那任市長你有什麼看法那個部長"},{"start":20837.128,"end":20856.954,"text":"老保的一個部分我相信這個社會上跟這個政府部門呢應該要會一起努力去做一個討論一起努力沒有用啦我要面對現實啦齁陳儒剛剛我所提齁他說2029年可能就會破產齁那你既然2029年會破產啊年年撥補啊其實撥補就是改革嗎對不對這個是很諷刺的"},{"start":20865.087,"end":20884.926,"text":"我希望部長你們要好好的探討怎麼去做讓這些退休的軍工教他比較心理上能夠平衡我認為這個很重要以上接下來我想麻煩黃國昌委員來代理主席"},{"start":20894.209,"end":20900.675,"text":"我們下一位請吳宗憲委員請吳委員我們麻煩部長來請部長"},{"start":20906.109,"end":20928.119,"text":"委員好謝謝部長我想我們今天主題是年金改革的問題嗎那其實在2017年的時候那個時候做年金的改革但其實當年啊你看說國家沒錢需要做這樣的改革可是那時候那一年其實我們還弄了一個一兆元的那個前瞻基礎建設計畫嗎所以"},{"start":20932.121,"end":20932.601,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":20945.154,"end":20961.791,"text":"那這段時間我們就是國民黨團有提這個改革的一些想法改革的那個修法建議那辦公我們辦公室也接到很多的電話當然有人支持有人反對啦都有但這是一個公共的議題我覺得本來就值得拿出來討論"},{"start":20963.288,"end":20977.742,"text":"那其實這段時間啦你想啦其實合理的改革本來就沒有問題大家都支持但是有時候我們去想一個人他如果一輩子為國家奉獻很久像部長你也是公務員出身我也是公務員出身"},{"start":20979.183,"end":20996.69,"text":"當年我們在選擇從事公務員這個職業的時候其實我們本來就有就已經很清楚就是公務員他在任的時候他其實沒有一個很好的薪水所得但是我們希望的就是在退休之後有一個很穩定的生活這是很多當年選擇公務員的人的都有這個想法"},{"start":20997.19,"end":21016.062,"text":"但是呢國家如果這樣變動之後是不是其實會變成是相當於是一個來自於政府的不人道的突襲就會讓很多人就是他會覺得很慌亂怎麼生活一下受到影響再來就是當初2017年為了推這個東西其實他造成了很多族群的對立階級的對立"},{"start":21017.583,"end":21039.194,"text":"然後又因為這個這樣子他為了當時的執政黨他為了用力去宣傳所以也同時重傷了公務員的形象然後但是政府也背負了人民覺得說你怎麼這麼不守信用我想如果說今天是一個私部門發生這個狀況如果有一間公司跟他的員工講好你薪水多少退休金比例怎麼樣"},{"start":21040.054,"end":21043.777,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":21058.462,"end":21066.265,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":21084.622,"end":21107.925,"text":"那如果說今天公務員在入職的時候他就知道將來會有這個狀況發生我覺得這又還好就像現在新的公務員他入職他就知道以後以後的問題嘛他當然他就你要選擇那你就要承受可是很多的公務員尤其現在退休中的公務員麻煩安靜一點退休中的公務員不好意思可以小聲一點"},{"start":21108.814,"end":21114.717,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":21138.564,"end":21162.047,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件,在公務員說我們是沒有錢,或者是說有一些側翼現在開始就說我們在走回頭路,那這個說法是對的嗎?所以這就是為什麼國民黨會希望提出一個停止那個所得替代率逐年降低的一個主因。我想這是公共議題的討論,那我們就是提出我們的質疑點是這個。"},{"start":21163.368,"end":21191.176,"text":"那甚至我們是不是應該去思考像勞保條例65條之四像我們現在對於公務員的部分他是4年檢討一次可是我們可不可以仿照一下像勞保條例他如果在CPI他是超過2的變動的時候那就要去適時的調整我想說這個可能請考試院這邊也思考一下好不好因為他不是沒有可以對照是勞保條例本來就有這個想法"},{"start":21191.596,"end":21191.896,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":21208.474,"end":21234.022,"text":"全勞動部長何沛山有說撫卹也是一種勞保年金改革的方式那我想說撫卹是不是也是公保年金改革破產的一個方式各位委員報告其實我們公保在88年重新做一個改革的時候以前就是說不足的部分就是政府完全分年做這個提撫"},{"start":21235.743,"end":21263.022,"text":"那我手上的資料是這樣啦就是當然啦就是確實有撥補過兩次啦像114年有編列194億然後113年100億但是呢這個撥補都這兩年的撥補的數額都不到一年的差額啦就是他他補進去但是他離需求還是差距很遠嘛我想說我不否定有撥補但是呢確實這個數字是有一個很大的差別啦"},{"start":21263.863,"end":21278.244,"text":"然後退撫基金現在又面臨到沒有新人批撥缺口而且還有原本的虧損壓力他等於是雙重的壓力進來那所以我想說這個部分差額的部分你們有思考要怎麼處理嗎?"},{"start":21280.791,"end":21304.866,"text":"新制的部分現在就是根據法律政府一定要分年撥補那政府去年今年的預算就是以20年的概念在做撥補那我們希望他明年以後至少都比這個還好啦我們努力來跟主義總署溝通那我想這大概就是剛委員提到我們的基金就是因為有獨立新制出來再加上如果停止的話他就提早"},{"start":21305.905,"end":21322.454,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":21332.7,"end":21348.149,"text":"社會再做一些討論那如果大家再做一些網上討論我覺得我都尊重我都覺得蠻好的一個方式那我想齁就常其實商場上常有一句話啦就是說還是這樣麻煩小聲一點因為會干擾到我思考謝謝不好意思這樣齁就是說那個不好意思時間暫停喔"},{"start":21352.199,"end":21366.092,"text":"那個委員在質詢的時候是不是可以麻煩參與會議的同仁把你的音量降低讓委員的質詢不會被中斷不好意思吳委員請比較不好意思是可能謝謝要麻煩各位因為思緒會中斷謝謝那個"},{"start":21369.415,"end":21370.296,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":21397.113,"end":21408.057,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":21426.67,"end":21450.41,"text":"我講很簡單的例子我自己有律師資格那當年我也在思考說我要不要去律師事務所上班去我爸爸的事務所上班但是我後來選擇一個薪水相對低很多的司法官其實我希望的就是在退休後有一個比較穩定的生活所以我當時選擇比較辛苦而且薪水比較低的工作因為我希望有好的退休生活"},{"start":21451.01,"end":21478.475,"text":"可是呢如果說等到我在前面已經辛苦了一輩子了到最後退休的時候你卻告訴我說以前我給你的承諾都不算你剩下只能再拿六成我這不管是什麼理由也許我都很難接受我在這邊跟部長報告這個問題所以我講一個很簡單的例子就是任何人在選擇職業的時候如果客觀的條件晉升條件什麼都相同的情況下"},{"start":21480.21,"end":21506.02,"text":"一個工作是薪水低但是有完善的退休制度另外一個工作是薪水高但是沒有一個完善的退休制度我們在選擇的時候我們就會去加以選擇說到底我比較喜歡我傾向是哪一個工作那像我的個性我喜歡有一個穩定的退休生活所以我會選擇一個薪水低可是退休制度完善的可是呢如果到最後突然變成跟我說"},{"start":21507.142,"end":21522.333,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案（事由．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．事由．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．事由．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．事由．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案�"},{"start":21536.924,"end":21541.031,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":21552.505,"end":21579.293,"text":"這是說如果今天國家真的財政出狀況我相信這些退休公務員都能夠共體時間但是我剛剛有講到了連續很多年他超徵都超過幾千億那在這個情況下會讓很多人覺得今天你明明超收那麼多錢甚至還要還錢給人民了但是你卻告訴我你沒有錢去付給我當年承諾過我的退休金然後我現在退休了我要去打第二份工也不行"},{"start":21579.773,"end":21603.274,"text":"那我今天生活真的會受影響所以我還是覺得政府必須要是值得信賴而且說話算話的人那這個公共議題討論上面我覺得還是一個除了公益需要思考之外信賴保護也需要思考甚至國家對於公務員退休後的照顧因為國家是公務員的老闆退休後的照顧足不足夠"},{"start":21604.255,"end":21608.357,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":21626.044,"end":21627.344,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":21645.891,"end":21667.769,"text":"那這樣有一些人真的會聽不下去部長你們能夠說一些想法因為我蠻尊敬您的你也知道我們日常的相處我非常尊敬您你知道我謝謝委員給我這個機會的一個說明我想除了財政的議題以外我覺得我可以提供委員另外一個為什麼當初要做年金改革的思考方式因為當初的制度的設計下退休的人"},{"start":21669.107,"end":21696.343,"text":"每個月的月所得大概就限職人員的可能在八成到九成以上甚至有的超過限職人員那當然整體上來講這顯然是沒有一個任何政府或公司不會這樣做所以其實這是一個啟動一定要變革的方式所以就設定了所得替代率往下降那60%我再次講60%是個名目所得但是因為我們透過法律的計算基礎那60%換算起來差不多是70%"},{"start":21700.54,"end":21715.811,"text":"實質上是70%即使降到118年我只是說委員謝謝你給我這個機會願意聽我跟你做這樣一個解釋我覺得有些事情吧為什麼一定要做這個事情這個事情最終的結果當然對財務有幫忙可是它還有另外一層的意義是在那個地方"},{"start":21716.351,"end":21740.664,"text":"那謝部長的說明齁但是我的立場還是這樣對財務有幫忙但是我必須說這超收了那麼多年稅金超徵那麼多年都幾千億這是第一個財務國家財務需求的部分但是第二個要考量到的還是信賴保護啦當年你告訴他可以這樣但是今天到後來你跟我說不對啊我當年的計算會造成什麼什麼什麼那"},{"start":21741.916,"end":21763.157,"text":"這個東西這些年邁的人他們沒有辦法接受的因為當初你告訴我是這樣嘛就你今天他的邏輯你你說話是不算話所以這部分是我提出我的想法啦然後就除了說國家其實稅收上面是沒有問題所以側翼不可以拿來說走回頭路或國家會破產這種話我覺得這是不對的"},{"start":21766.118,"end":21779.567,"text":"但對公務人員的照顧還是要國家說話還是要算話好那部長那就謝謝你今天的說明好謝謝謝謝吳宗憲委員那現在請吳委員回來繼續當主席下一位我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":21809.695,"end":21810.516,"text":"撫卹法定人數不足"},{"start":21821.203,"end":21837.875,"text":"這個還是要諮詢部長因為這個是你的業務主要的業務人事長是間接也是主要好我們這個上次我也跟你提過那時候是主要是諮詢秘書長考試院的秘書長105年6月8號"},{"start":21845.95,"end":21851.793,"text":"法第十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":21863.439,"end":21864.78,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":21883.415,"end":21911.418,"text":"還有勞工也在這個包括移民企業雇主相關的這些代表都成為總統府國家年金改革委員會然後由副總統當時的副總統陳建仁擔任這個召集委員召集人總共召開了多少次的會議呢二十次啊"},{"start":21913.25,"end":21931.35,"text":"總共召開了二十次的會議。第二十次的會議是在105年11月10號。所以這個時間是很密集的、很積極的來去開會。那為什麼還要找勞工呢?因為一樣的。"},{"start":21932.714,"end":21950.329,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體"},{"start":21955.595,"end":21984.336,"text":"所謂的那個勞保或是工保這些也都面臨今天一直談論的這些破產的問題都有勞工的也不是也是所以起碼我們如果從現在的數據來看勞工因為當時執政的政府當時的行政院"},{"start":21985.336,"end":21996.682,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件,並不提出相關年改的這些勞保的勞工的部分所以這幾年撥補2670億透過人民的納稅錢去撥補這個我支持我支持但是為什麼"},{"start":22008.757,"end":22032.884,"text":"針對軍公教錦囂卻不是同一個方式去解決卻不是用撥補的方式這個就是非常大的一個偏頗對軍公教錦囂而言尤其是已經退休的軍公教錦囂還受及既往啊好我們就接下來談這個"},{"start":22035.932,"end":22062.706,"text":"總統府所成立的國家年金改革委員會開了二十次會議考試院依據也就是參考依據了這個年改會議國家年金改革委員會的相關的這些討論的結果你們提出了當時的考試院提出了版本送到立法院來審查"},{"start":22065.312,"end":22087.759,"text":"審查的結果當時民進黨的立法委員絕對多數在這個場合司法法制委員會三天三夜開會結果用誰的版本是用段宜康及其他民進黨立委所提出來的版本來通過"},{"start":22089.585,"end":22095.229,"text":"法定人數不足以採取公務人員退休資遣撫卹法定人數不足以採取公務人員退休資遣撫卹法定人數不足以採取公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":22119.833,"end":22132.229,"text":"卻是立法委員的版本而不是總統府的國家年金改革委員會所以這個部分既然實施已經這麼多年了"},{"start":22133.345,"end":22149.648,"text":"就應該要來再檢討現在這個時刻就是檢討的時刻所以我們要好好的審查這個我們這段時間一些我們立委的一個一些提案以上"},{"start":22152.488,"end":22165.64,"text":"謝謝,那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員下一位我們請柯智恩委員柯智恩委員柯智恩委員那接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":22183.004,"end":22200.301,"text":"請市長姐、市部長麻煩部長委員好你好最近很多民調你有看最近在討論說金剛價這個退休人員會不會砍得太兇你有看這些最近的民調嗎"},{"start":22203.291,"end":22225.741,"text":"大概大致上維持2比1吧認為砍太兇的差不多該停了認為繼續砍的大概2比1這是最新民調的趨勢特別是台灣民眾黨做的對於警察人員警察跟警消他們認為砍太多了這個比例不能再砍這個比例非常非常的高另外我們兩個都夠老了啦欸博定"},{"start":22226.974,"end":22227.534,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22237.588,"end":22238.969,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":22257.398,"end":22258.518,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22283.303,"end":22300.135,"text":"公務人員能服務35年的很少欸我看在座今天很多來的這個公務員能夠考進去公務員又可以35年退休很少欸你是35年你才有可以從從80%開始算結果民進黨把它從75%開始算你如果服務只有30年你從67.5%開始看你如果服務只有25年"},{"start":22306.34,"end":22312.524,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":22334.465,"end":22344.97,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":22364.298,"end":22382.348,"text":"好 那我現在問一個最重要的問題等一等五零如果照本來考試立刻進行的前續部長考試院是主管機關也是最專業的嘛回到考試院這個版本今年是第六年嘛 對不對應該只有砍了5%啊可是現在砍多少"},{"start":22383.939,"end":22392.185,"text":"現在一開始從75%已經5%砍在那邊了經過5年又砍了7.5已經砍了12.5%了欸比考試院當初提出來的10年還多欸這樣對嗎?這樣會不會太狠了一般的公務員現在退休因為民進黨當初多數當初通過了這個我再算一次給大家看"},{"start":22404.71,"end":22429.73,"text":"本來照今年是第六年那應該只有砍了五趴一年一趴對不對民進黨把八十趴的基準變成七十五趴再加一年1.57.5就12.5啦比你考試院本來提的版本要砍十年的還狠所以是不是該停這是一個很重要的一個點第二個更重要我要提醒大家我為什麼一直在講考試院版"},{"start":22430.831,"end":22459.158,"text":"考試院是我們的主管機關啊他當初有做財政會不會破產財務評估有評估嘛對不對啊現在董事長才考試院出來版本不會破產現在考試院來的人欸考試院是五錢分立獨立機關欸現在是不想民進黨執政民進黨說會破產科技營業家都會破產你們回去看看當初你們提的我定答應我一件事情不是只有你請考試院所有人"},{"start":22460.202,"end":22479.016,"text":"回忆看看當初考試院提出來的財務的評估當初用比較溫和的80%一年1%十年以後不會破產為什麼現在搞到 砍凍凍為什麼會破產沒有合理啊好 更重要的博定我要問你問題當初為什麼 博定我知道 我問你了 你再來當初為什麼要當初為什麼要大砍經過這樣的年金財政說有問題嘛 對不對你也是專家"},{"start":22490.345,"end":22492.689,"text":"現在財政有困難嗎?最近這幾年連年都超收對不對?每個人要領到六千塊啊"},{"start":22501.148,"end":22523.508,"text":"最近這五年平均超出的金額大家知道多少嗎?有時候超出幾百億,有時候超出四千多億、五千多億最近這五年平均超出多少錢?大致上一年。最近五年一年平均超出多少?大家知道這個數字嗎?大概幾千億吧?兩千七百億這個是為什麼台灣民眾黨這次說要裁劃法要修正的時候,中央下放給地方了,中央不會受到影響"},{"start":22525.014,"end":22525.875,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22539.568,"end":22560.298,"text":"經過這幾年,財政沒有困難嘛,對不對?我覺得這是兩個層次的問題啦。基金本身的財務跟國家的財務是兩個不同的面向啦。那當初的討論是基金的財務如果不做改革,真的會有困難。欸,博定,你覺得那個前勞動部部長何佩桑怎麼說?"},{"start":22561.417,"end":22563.258,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":22581.135,"end":22581.355,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22602.128,"end":22616.844,"text":"這是第一例對不對第二個你拿去跟勞工比勞工撥補比你多那麼多你身為全系部部長你為什麼不去幫退休薪工交給力爭呢我想我們在過程裡面對新制的缺口都有跟行政院充分的說明說"},{"start":22617.865,"end":22618.165,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22638.157,"end":22638.277,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22652.731,"end":22658.414,"text":"所以我想這也是一種撥補啊所以我沒有說你不能夠撥補可是部長有沒有撥得太多了你五年你聽我說你五年現在今天有個關鍵字欸都2700億啊你說你五年省了2700億嘛對不對你現在說不能夠停下來喔停下來未來五年又少了2700億我現在就要跟你講你剛剛講這個大水庫是小水庫嘛"},{"start":22679.807,"end":22680.387,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":22703.268,"end":22703.468,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22726.345,"end":22726.845,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22744.421,"end":22766.292,"text":"從中央政府總預算快速的增加106年的不到兩兆現在是兩兆七千多億明年要增加四千多億已經到了三兆一千多億了怎麼會沒錢這段時間光從106年算好了算到111年用特別預算大部分都擠債了兩兆兩千多億欸中華民國政府感冒錢"},{"start":22768.291,"end":22768.891,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":22796.291,"end":22797.432,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文宣告"},{"start":22822.489,"end":22848.55,"text":"能夠不要再砍或者是用什麼方式一定要讓他們活得有尊嚴好不好然後他們的晚年所惜不能夠再受到影響了好不好也讓我們年輕人一方面是勞工有受到勞工也受到保障的同時讓我們年輕人也願意進到這個政府體系來阿不然老實講像現在很多金融很多金融家有時候都招生都招不出欸那個整個那個來來要進這個體系的人越來越少也不是中華民國之福好不好欸保定 多謝老爺好不好"},{"start":22849.17,"end":22850.731,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這一個學習部首部長"},{"start":22876.486,"end":22883.736,"text":"市長,今天在談這個年金的改革跟反改革的部分請你看幾篇的圖片第一個"},{"start":22886.541,"end":22914.195,"text":"這個馬英九在當總統的時候他有講說不好意思這個照片弄得比較黑一點點但是沒有其他的意思年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就後悔這是馬英九在當總統的時候2012年說的然後呢另外一個是前副總統吳敦義他說的2016年年金改革一定要快做否則將成為國家的未爆彈這是國民黨在不論是馬英九或是吳敦義時代的時候都說年金要來改革"},{"start":22914.935,"end":22925.764,"text":"然後在2012年11月的時候蠻久他說這個年間制度不能垮也不會垮政府要提出務實可行的改革方案請國人放心"},{"start":22926.84,"end":22947.959,"text":"然後呢在2013年1月的時候那馬英九又講了他說這個年金改革呢這個政府掛保證安心30年騰騎下一代若不及早改革未來年金制度可能會面臨破產的風險強調改革的迫切性這個都是在國民黨在執政的時候他們也認為說如果年金不改的話"},{"start":22948.8,"end":22950.561,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":22975.278,"end":22989.765,"text":"這個若以至少每年五百億的規模來估算,這六年半的時間到現在為止,軍公教這個節省下可預註這個退府基金的金額可望突破三千億大關,那這個數字對不對?"},{"start":22991.909,"end":23014.804,"text":"差不多是這個數字差不多就是說我們年改省下來的這些退休金那我們預注到這一個退撫基金裡面去然後再加上政府還有撥補那所以說這大概6年半以來你們下面有這個你們的這個年改措施的收入這個財務收益這是有超過大概3000億左右嗎對有那對於這個退撫基金來講"},{"start":23017.265,"end":23018.708,"text":"當時民進黨通過年金改革的時候,在野黨有沒有去做釋憲?"},{"start":23031.886,"end":23050.871,"text":"那時候應該這樣講在馬總統的時代他送出法案到立法院但是立法院並沒有完成審查所以應該就沒有釋憲的在民進黨通過的法案之後確實是有釋憲在2019年這個大法官8月781、782、783"},{"start":23055.012,"end":23082.178,"text":"那我看了一下解釋的這個要點他說關於這個法律不受既往信賴保護原則、比例原則、憲法保障人民的財產權都合憲嘛對不對對那個三號解釋都支持合憲因為我們有很多避難緩降的措施就是說知道要改但是我們有一些提議很多這種配套的方案所以大法官是支持的是合憲的"},{"start":23083.198,"end":23109.975,"text":"所以我剛剛陸陸續續有聽到有些委員講說違反信賴保護原則違反比例原則侵佔這個人民的財產權但是我看這個大法官的視線裡面對於這部分來講都認為是合憲的嘛是不是那我再請教一下如果按照現在國民黨想要修的這個版本來講的話大概整理一下有三個重點第一個所得替代率"},{"start":23110.697,"end":23130.202,"text":"要停止減少從明年的元旦開始就是停止因為每年降一趴他就要把它停止第二個月退休金隨著物價機制調整將CPI消費者物價指數的累積成長率達正負5%的標準"},{"start":23131.562,"end":23149.14,"text":"再往下縮減有的到百分之二有的到百分之三不定第三為月退金給付金額檢討年限我們是四年檢討一次然後還要縮短那這三個大概是他們的這個原則啦那我請問一下部長那如果通過之後"},{"start":23149.76,"end":23153.102,"text":"會有什麼樣的影響?我看媒體有在講就是說如果是按照國民黨版本通過的話大概這個會提早4到5年我們特府經濟會破產會用盡"},{"start":23178.775,"end":23189.082,"text":"那其實就是說在野黨也有提到說那這個檢討的這個年限請問一下我們從這一個年金改革法案通過之後我們有沒有做過檢討"},{"start":23190.213,"end":23194.235,"text":"檢討主要就是說根據一些建立一些對基金財務狀況的指標的monitor然後根據那個做出一個結論說基金的財務缺口還是大到應該還是要繼續但是應該要持每年都要持續根據這些指標來觀察"},{"start":23216.184,"end":23216.204,"text":"檢討報告"},{"start":23231.782,"end":23252.28,"text":"再請教一下部長現在所得替代率的計算實際上已經高於民意的替代率那部分的退休者的實質金額甚至逐年增加如果替代率不再降低那對於民間的勞動者那還有其他職業年金參與者的公平性該如何去做衡評"},{"start":23253.328,"end":23278.87,"text":"我覺得這也是一個在討論基金的時候除了基金本身的財務面以外很多人關心的是說那到底直接拿多少錢那我覺得這是公共議題的討論大家應該充分討論那我們很負責任的提出報告大概平均呢現在是七成以上的人大概是五萬塊以上五萬多塊那我覺得五萬多塊是不是足以支撐一個人個人"},{"start":23280.191,"end":23283.254,"text":"撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":23304.232,"end":23304.793,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":23324.993,"end":23352.113,"text":"四分鐘講一下然後主席站起來就消音這是這個這邊是謝謝主席謝謝各位委員因為今天人數比較多所以我們會會比較沒有沒有這樣已經比這個內政委員還要好了六十幾位了好那謝謝那我們下一位請王逸川委員發言那因為我們今天是從一點開始開會到現在都沒有休息所以稍後在黃秀芳委員詢答完畢之後休息五分鐘"},{"start":23362.659,"end":23365.881,"text":"好,稍微我們請部長麻煩部長部長好如果當年這個蔡總統沒有推動這一個年金的改革那當時的說法是這個基金什麼時候就破產了根據精算應該在119年或者120年當時什麼都沒做對就是6年後就破產了"},{"start":23390.973,"end":23392.254,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":23411.195,"end":23439.334,"text":"那又經過這個去年的一些改變那你們也提到說這個要用慶啦要到一百三十幾年嘛民國大概一百快接近一百四十年就改變完以後現在現在大概到一百四十年那如果按照這個今天我們討論的這幾個版本你覺得哪一個版本啊"},{"start":23440.273,"end":23441.233,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":23467.922,"end":23468.002,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":23475.969,"end":23497.201,"text":"這是一個修法的問題如果最後真的通過的話那我想站在全區部是一個執行的一個機關當然要執行但是他會財務上真的會會對很多限職的公務人員會產生很大的影響那我們請那個蘇仁市長來你算行政院的啦通過了會怎麼辦"},{"start":23502.245,"end":23521.183,"text":"這個就是政府整個財政調度的問題本來就是一個小水庫如果能夠自己自主的話我覺得這是一個比較健康的一個生態系你講的這個小水庫基本上就是公務員要提撥政府要提撥 對不對"},{"start":23523.16,"end":23543.152,"text":"租貸是公務人員要提,不夠的部分政府當然今年一百萬每年一百九十就補,再從大水庫引進來的錢可以少一點的話政府的財政調度會比較健康。"},{"start":23543.973,"end":23572.755,"text":"OK那接下來如果通過我們就是行政院就接下來編這種預算的時候要多挖走多少錢?那就差不多你如果說那135年就會掉掉本來是還可以動到80嘛對阿就是會在135的時候就會碰到那個比較大的risk"},{"start":23573.652,"end":23594.563,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":23604.017,"end":23604.357,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":23628.297,"end":23630.699,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":23646.872,"end":23646.912,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":23665.023,"end":23666.564,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":23688.221,"end":23688.842,"text":"公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":23714.935,"end":23732.61,"text":"這全序部人事總書都要合調一下,大家算出來,因為這錢是公務人員的,不是外面大家,是公務人員的,算出一個最好的方式,不要說現在的公務員要越提越多,去補那個已經退休的"},{"start":23733.274,"end":23748.499,"text":"已經退休了,他現在,我們應該改革之後,他總有一個預期,說我現在拿了第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多。你現在第一年這麼多、第二年這麼多,現在聽你們說還是第一年,第二年你省下的時候發現說,他其實還差這麼多。所以這一個所有的利害關係,我是建議你們一定要去整合一下,讓大家都完蛋啦,因為錢就是這麼多。"},{"start":23760.343,"end":23762.907,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":23775.43,"end":23799.886,"text":"相關的利害關係人,你不去找那些退休的你也要找那些限職的限職的你不去找那些高級官員你也要找那些六職等、七職等的九職等做客廳的、檢任官的、十二職的大家各自有各自的盤算嘛因爲他們自己的生活大家尋求一個比較好的方法讓這一個改革能夠比較圓滿一點好不好,好,義兄謝謝"},{"start":23803.568,"end":23825.464,"text":"謝王委員王委員好那下一位我們請林柱英委員謝主席主席邀請我們司部長麻煩司部長"},{"start":23829.087,"end":23830.048,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23845.714,"end":23859.976,"text":"第六第七條條文修正草案案。那麼在第六第七年的這個過程當中不知道我們全序部當中有沒有委外來做民調或者是有沒有掌握到一些民調就是真的如同現在國民黨提案委員認為的"},{"start":23861.218,"end":23885.49,"text":"真的導致了這些退休的軍公教人員尤其是公務員造成他們的生活困頓或是生活不易甚至於說隨著我們所謂講的物價上漲造成了他們活不下去嗎又或者是讓他們的生活上面出現了什麼困難嗎那權敘部針對這個部分有沒有什麼樣的了解"},{"start":23886.07,"end":23904.212,"text":"我跟委員報告我想我們的法例明文規定即使是退休人員在年改後他都還是隨著物價指數5%左右就開始或者每四年會檢討所以都還是有定期的一個調整並不是沒有沒有調整那至於說每個人退休所得有多少因為會跟他"},{"start":23904.733,"end":23909.079,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":23924.568,"end":23927.029,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":23945.456,"end":23970.022,"text":"好言下之意就是其實在當年年改的時候也有顧及到就是所謂物價波動這個部分雖然說我們的所得替代率是有在逐年的下降但是另外一方面隨著物價該上漲該調整的我們還是有做適時的反應對嗎沒有錯而且這是全世界幾乎主要國家都是對退休人員所得調整的方式"},{"start":23970.702,"end":23989.594,"text":"所以說本席要讓你來看一個這是幾次我找到的在2018年的時候針對軍公教的年改當時是55%的民眾滿意那麼在到2024年的5月那麼其實還是有六成的民眾覺得年改事實上這樣的一條改革的道路"},{"start":23990.535,"end":23995.017,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":24014.506,"end":24034.197,"text":"這整體來說他不是一個職業的對立他其實是一個解決世代差異或者是解決世代上面的問題因為我知道其實在台灣的社會當中我曾經聽過一個形容那就是每一個家庭裡面你都可以找到一位軍公教"},{"start":24035.373,"end":24059.007,"text":"例如本席家裡有人是軍人也有人是教師所以其實這個題目當你一定要面臨要做改革的時候其實是跟我們全國的每一個人都有關所以為什麼今天值得在這裡詢答也希望部長能夠來做一些回應提供我們更多的資料跟資訊因為這不只是整個國家整體的問題"},{"start":24060.988,"end":24078.057,"text":"更是接下來年輕世代如果他要報考公務員如果他要成為教師或者是他要從軍報國的時候他所擔憂的那就是接下來當我年資滿了可以退休了當我服役完了之後我要退役的時候"},{"start":24078.817,"end":24082.458,"text":"我的所謂未來的退休金有沒有保障我想部長你也能夠同意當時我們從2017、2018在推年改的時候其實想法都是一樣的我們要解決的是讓它能夠永續所以這也是為什麼我相信今天質詢當中這個圖這一句話部長已經看了沒要看啦我是第幾個我是第20個起來的啦可能看第20遍啦啦齁那"},{"start":24104.226,"end":24127.058,"text":"馬英九也講過雖然說馬英九現在講的話跟過去講的話不一定是一樣的但是這個東西就實實在在的可以感受到他也不是藍綠的問題他也不是職業別的問題他是整體世代跟整體台灣人的問題主席站起來我會儘量遵守時間包括當年關中也講了就是政府讓你養老"},{"start":24127.978,"end":24133.284,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":24148.22,"end":24166.726,"text":"但是現值的是三萬九九指等是六萬三千五那麼現役的是四萬七十二指等是七點八萬然後現役的是五點三萬我先說了我沒有要挑起任何世代上面的差距我只想問以現在這樣的數據跟數字的話"},{"start":24171.229,"end":24171.349,"text":"三）委員張智倫"},{"start":24186.309,"end":24201.062,"text":"我用觀眾的話來講以現在現在這樣的一個狀況那麼我們當然希望讓退休的公務員能夠獲得一定的溫飽獲得一定的生活必須而且要給他尊嚴"},{"start":24202.779,"end":24218.816,"text":"那麼這樣子如果說依照現行的提案修法然後又改成所得替代率不要再往下再往下降的時候這個會不會變成是退休的比在工作的還要領得多討論退休制度的退休者那個所得方案合理化會計"},{"start":24225.623,"end":24226.344,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":24236.589,"end":24263.725,"text":"所以這也是本席希望今天我們透過尋答主席的安排我們讓很多事情能夠清楚的被社會大眾瞭解因為就像我說的那句話每一個人家庭都一定找得到一位軍公教人員所以我們希望的是整體的社會過去的爭端爭議不要再起而且在公酬的部分其實都是一個合理的狀況也讓退休的軍公教能夠獲得一定的保障謝謝"},{"start":24265.599,"end":24267.502,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24293.533,"end":24316.823,"text":"有請部長和人事總長。你好,我想請問有關於霸凌申訴機制的一個建立狀況。就是說昨天卓院長是有回到媒體的提問的時候有提到說人種已經成立了一個通報平台,近日也會開通,那裡面也有包含建立所謂的申訴機制。"},{"start":24318.064,"end":24339.859,"text":"但我想要跟部長來討論還有總長來討論一件事情就是說在我們的性騷法性騷擾防治法裡面在我們如果是一般性的性騷擾在他知心兩年之內他都還可以去申訴然後如果是我們是全市性騷擾的話是三年內可是我們現在這個只有一年內"},{"start":24341.42,"end":24370.076,"text":"我們是不是可以比照性騷擾防治法來去把它調整到全市的性騷擾的部分一樣是拉在三年內了我跟委員報告一下事實上目前在處理那個霸凌的大概兩年了三年了我們都同步在處理我們沒有直接那我們這個是不是既然實務上已經在處理我們這一個也只是你們修改一下就可以去調整的部分是不是也可以一併跟進呢既然實務上已經這樣運作了嗎"},{"start":24373.923,"end":24396.875,"text":"這個我跟委員報告一下,因為每一個機關他定的一個年限事實上是不一樣的。每一個機關定的不一樣。那為什麼會是不一樣呢?沒有,本來霸凌的就是由服務機關本身他第一線去處理。那我們人事總署會另外成立一個會總的一個申報的平台。"},{"start":24398.424,"end":24417.584,"text":"但是我想因為既然因為我想人事一條邊嘛也是你們一直慣行的一個模式嘛那為什麼現在就變成說又要回到各機關來去規範呢他是不是有可能是信騷本來就是這樣信騷本來就是這樣對我們現在講的是霸凌嘛我們現在講的是霸凌是不是可以比照嘛"},{"start":24418.543,"end":24434.536,"text":"法令的部分目前還是由服務機關直接在處理第一線那如果當事人他去申訴受理機關他沒有處理就可以新的管道到人事總處來我們會收案"},{"start":24437.59,"end":24463.183,"text":"我現在有點不太明白因為你的申訴機制是這樣子可是又到各個地方又是有不同的沒關係這個部分我們可能會後再持續的我來跟跟您請教好了好不好謝謝委員但我想要先來回請問一個現在比較關注的就是說我想請問一下今天其實來了非常多的機關的人事首長我想請問一下現場的各位你們現在正在處理有在處理霸凌案的人可不可以舉個手"},{"start":24465.128,"end":24467.749,"text":"現在有在處理相關的霸凌案的可以舉手嗎?都沒有嗎?因為想說我這邊收到蠻多通報的,都沒有是有點離譜的。好,可以謝謝,請放下。那我想問一下,現在"},{"start":24491.714,"end":24495.148,"text":"現在各個機關你們都在處理這個霸凌案那你們"},{"start":24497.584,"end":24521.185,"text":"這個機制的建立我想問一下你們現在在調查期間你們有權利可以去要求行為人可以暫停職務嗎?可以去暫停可以暫時調查限職嗎?可以去要求先請假接受調查嗎?請問這些如果你們現在有做這些事情的話我想請問一下你們的法令依據又是什麼?可以用的工具又是什麼?你們都沒有跟各機關人士單位告訴這個部分我是說這句話我是要問一下"},{"start":24522.827,"end":24538.078,"text":"我想請教一下,如果我們現在各個機關都有用這些手段的話,這些法律依據到底是什麼?人事長,他們現在可以使用這些依據嗎?可以使用這些工具嗎?行為人被調查期間,除非是有重大就會先免職,沒有的話就是繼續任用。"},{"start":24549.11,"end":24564.91,"text":"那這個是法令依據是什麼我覺得現在大家都會有點頭痛因為是沒有相關的一些法令依據跟相關的這些工具他們並不是那麼清楚有沒有可能在一個月以內建立目前因應這個霸凌機制建立所需要的一些相關的法令依據跟工具呢"},{"start":24566.698,"end":24567.238,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":24590.668,"end":24610.533,"text":"行政院內部會先討論行政院內部討論完以後會跟考試院再來談要在哪一個法裡面去有一個法的依據因為有法的依據大家在執行上會比較會比較有所遵循所以我想我可以再花點時間了解一下那現在進度呢因為聽起來有在討論你們依據"},{"start":24612.458,"end":24612.839,"text":"稍後會完成嗎?"},{"start":24622.645,"end":24623.326,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":24650.174,"end":24650.334,"text":"法律依據"},{"start":24670.205,"end":24671.246,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24690.098,"end":24691.219,"text":"稍後請黃秀芳委員發言稍後請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":24715.066,"end":24717.368,"text":"退休基金會提早破產,會提早到幾年?"},{"start":24736.625,"end":24736.805,"text":"三）委員張智倫"},{"start":24756.244,"end":24770.71,"text":"這中間的時候其實大家一直在討論這個年改年金改革那也透過這個當時的這個副總統陳建仁副總統召集這個年金改革會議那一個一個的提出討論"},{"start":24771.69,"end":24789.227,"text":"再交由立院來審理修正通過年金改革的方案。我相信已經實施了六、七年的時間,最主要是希望年金能夠永續,尤其是我們現在是老年化、少子化,"},{"start":24789.787,"end":24791.348,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":24816.459,"end":24818.281,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":24837.824,"end":24855.102,"text":"所以年改的方案其實他就明白講只要年改每一年度節省下來的經費通通全數預註為給基金所以你可以理解他只是不用撥補這個字眼所以他每年都穩定了這些"},{"start":24856.203,"end":24857.464,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":24875.959,"end":24876.179,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":24896.13,"end":24904.617,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":24920.93,"end":24936.057,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件不符合現在的這個他的這個生活費然後可能會造成他的這個生活會受到一些影響那我想請教就是說針對這些退休的公務人員所提出來的你們有在這個每年針對這個物價指數然後針對這個退休金有做一個調整嗎"},{"start":24940.789,"end":24965.391,"text":"我們法律本來就規定兩個條件要去調整一個就是說當物價指數累積到5%的時候我們就要調整另外即使沒有到5%每四年都應該去檢討所以我們過去六七年調整兩次第一次調整的時候其實物價指數沒有到5%是四年我們去調整第二次因為後最近幾年物價波動多所以5%的時候我們就調整我想是這樣一個方式"},{"start":24967.512,"end":24993.726,"text":"我認為在六七年前這個年金改革當時民進黨執政黨非常負責任的將這個年金改革做一個希望說這個年金是能夠永續很可惜就是說國民黨跟民眾黨如果在這時候又要走回頭路的話其實對現任的公務人員其實是不公平的所以我們希望說這個可能大家要三思謝謝"},{"start":24996.732,"end":24998.679,"text":"一具先前宣告我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":25026.164,"end":25039.331,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25048.449,"end":25061.362,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25065.746,"end":25089.946,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。案。二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。案。二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。案。二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案。案。二）委員張智�"},{"start":25090.987,"end":25091.929,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":25110.674,"end":25121.645,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":25126.922,"end":25129.004,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25148.135,"end":25156.218,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25175.307,"end":25180.233,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":25190.866,"end":25215.138,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草"},{"start":25218.28,"end":25221.444,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":25234.198,"end":25240.361,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":25261.452,"end":25280.976,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文"},{"start":25291.478,"end":25299.8,"text":"撫卹法第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":25335.457,"end":25336.958,"text":"稍後請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":25350.393,"end":25368.703,"text":"主席各位大家午安喔是不是請我們這個人事總處人事長麻煩人事長部長你很開心喔終於可以喝一口水了叫人事長幫你代打OK來人事長"},{"start":25370.091,"end":25381.863,"text":"是這樣子的就是說我們勞動部因為這個勞發署那台北分署發生了無性員工這個不幸的事件"},{"start":25383.452,"end":25404.916,"text":"這裏面的調查報告我們都很不滿意當然這個跟你也有一點相關這個調查報告行政調查報告現在已經成為謝芬署長法律上攻防拿回來打著勞動部的調查報告回來法律上再打這個勞動部一把的這個鎖本的這個依據"},{"start":25408.277,"end":25425.369,"text":"那這裡面我比較在乎的是說不是只有霸凌的申訴的制度其中有一項我特別看到的是說他因為承辦這個資訊業務的計畫那他的直屬長官叫他限期要繳出來"},{"start":25427.17,"end":25442.438,"text":"實際上他是一個很認真而且求好心切的不是擺爛的那種公務員所以剛好是相反的因為他很認真所以他覺得他沒有辦法完成辜負了這樣的一個期待那這樣子"},{"start":25443.749,"end":25462.902,"text":"但是呢檢視一下他們那個單位大家檢討說他們那個單位的人力配置就是說他的業務很多也很繁雜他的單位他的辦公室裡面有五個人力還有其他五個人力可是那五個呢是業務承攬就是說勞務承攬的人員"},{"start":25466.704,"end":25467.425,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":25483.26,"end":25483.96,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":25503.376,"end":25517.133,"text":"我今天有質詢是沒有正照的不專業的未來的失業者在做現在的幫現在的失業者找工作的工作那這個裡面呢變成勞務承攬有一個問題就是"},{"start":25520.727,"end":25524.211,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":25541.428,"end":25545.531,"text":"所以對公務人員來講從派遣變成勞務承攬他反而有很多的限制他不能夠指揮監督所以他能夠幫忙公務人員解決問題的人手變少而且少很多"},{"start":25564.523,"end":25582.439,"text":"所以這個勞役上非常的不均那很多單位是一個公務人員指揮六個十個這個勞務承攬的以前還是指揮沒有指揮現在沒有指揮權以前還是指揮這個派遣公司的員工的現在完全都沒有這個問題你怎麼看"},{"start":25584.589,"end":25598.487,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,大概就分兩個部分,就是說這些派遣的或者勞務承攬的這些人力,事實上我們現在已經有在內部在檢討,因為遺害用這種人用了很多人。"},{"start":25601.923,"end":25610.928,"text":"本身正職的公務人員的比例相對低。這問題我們內部已經在討論準備要跟勞動部來討論看他那個未來的人力需求是怎樣。這部分我們已經初步上已經有規劃出,因為他的慷慨,他的組織,整個勞動部跟勞發署他整個組織結構人力需求我們已經在盤。第二個部分"},{"start":25631.258,"end":25659.642,"text":"派一個分屬的一個資訊人員去做那個政策規劃我是覺得這個是有檢討的空間的。人事長我看你的資歷喔你是資訊專家然後你在國稅局的資歷相當的豐富那你相當對於這個資訊的業務也很熟悉在人事總處應該也有資訊上管理上的專業你就這個事情有沒有辦法再更精進的看法"},{"start":25663.326,"end":25678.975,"text":"這件事我在看人工智慧的這種政策規劃的loadingsupport應該是在勞發署、署本部或者是在勞動部的執行處不能丟給一個市級機關的人市級機關基本上就是說你系統設計好之後"},{"start":25682.637,"end":25690.76,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員"},{"start":25711.407,"end":25726.112,"text":"核心業務等了一個四級機關的一個公務人員去搬,搬不出來,然後才發生不幸的事件,他是導火線嘛。結果三級機關沒有統整這個需求,在更上面的勞動部也沒有,不過這個"},{"start":25727.312,"end":25746.582,"text":"這個就不歸你管了我比較想的是派遣跟承攬以外就是說你說勞發署這個人事業務我覺得很奇怪因為你們就原有所控制在那裡你們也不增加人事費用可是明明都有人事的需求在那裡那你們就覺得說還要增加1.5個月年終獎金還要很多這個額外的成本還得利用派遣"},{"start":25753.166,"end":25753.526,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25762.013,"end":25785.18,"text":"根本上我們政府的運作是由各種類型的,或是科技就來的、或是業聘的、或是業務的,各式各樣的人組成。不過這一次的事件,我想我們內部已經重新再來檢視整個勞動部,甚至老華署他真正需要的人力,結果我們會協助他去做。"},{"start":25785.88,"end":25792.987,"text":"我為什麼問這個問題是因為核心業務啊有些單位的核心業務啊是以前是派遣的人在蓋章的有現在可能是勞務承攬的人在蓋章的啊你要說要核心業務給這種人在蓋章他要怎麼去負責扛責我就搞不清楚了"},{"start":25804.403,"end":25815.512,"text":"我不曉得現在我們會一併納件來檢討啦就是大家都要開這個錢這樣說還不可以再增加臨時支出啊明明就需要這個臨時支出你還說不可以增加啊啊約聘僱也沒有還不是約聘僱去蓋那個核心業務的章勒是派遣和那個業務承攬的勞務承攬的人在蓋那個章這樣合理嗎所以臨時的這個僱員約聘僱都沒有辦法"},{"start":25833.086,"end":25833.426,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25860.152,"end":25862.273,"text":"稍後請陳秀寶委員發言。謝主席,請詮釋部司部長。麻煩部長。"},{"start":25883.004,"end":25905.448,"text":"三（委員好部長好辛苦了部長根據你們今天提出的報告所載2013年的時候考試院是不是就有針對月退休金期制年齡偏低月退休所得替代率偏高以及退休金的安全準備不足等等問題來提出公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的草案是不是"},{"start":25906.369,"end":25908.37,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":25933.9,"end":25959.426,"text":"對,因為如果用欠一支就是那個基金零啊那當時你們提出來的時候2013年的執政執政是馬一九政府嘛那時候立法院的多數應該是國民黨但是那個時候呢他們是完全執政國民黨完全執政但是他並沒有去正視這個全序部提出的這個退府基金即將用盡就是有破產的這個嚴重的問題他們也堅持不願意改革也沒有顧到公務員的權益"},{"start":25960.146,"end":25972.243,"text":"是一直到2016年蔡英文政府上任之後呢發現退撫基金的這個問題來才提出一系列的年輕的改革讓退撫基金得以延續下一個世代來保障現任公務員的權益這個部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":25974.925,"end":25994.706,"text":"我想應該講全區部站在基金管理的方式很早就提出這個立法案那時候全區部也考慮提出了但是那時候的立法院並沒有去審理他部長我想請教您在停止調降替代率之後退撫基金大概在什麼時候會用完"},{"start":25995.747,"end":26016.872,"text":"因為提早4到5年所以大概以現在來估算大概在135年前後那到時候就等於說現任的公務員退休後是完全領不到退休金如果我們的這個退伏基金是用慶了破產了的話包含現在我們在場的所有的議事人員部長您身邊的這些事務官們他們的退休生活是就沒有保障了"},{"start":26018.032,"end":26044.874,"text":"國民黨現在不負責任在喊說要政府撥補退補基金在112年未提存的退休金精算負債是高達2.9兆已經將近是我國一年行政院的總預算國民黨這邊他們主張要修才化法已經將行政院的預算大幅的下放到各縣市也會影響到行政院所推行的各項的政策在教育、在文化、在運動、在科技等等預算都受到影響"},{"start":26045.655,"end":26073.298,"text":"那現在又提出了停止調降替代率那等到退撫基金的缺口大了之後一定會要求行政院來撥補那到時候行政院所推行的各種政策是不是就全數要停擺我們真的是非常擔心因像我們教文我們剛通過學生輔導法我們要補足專輔教師跟專輔人力的這個經費還有現在現行的縮減公私立大學學費的差距的方案青壯世代的心理健康支持方案以及"},{"start":26073.598,"end":26099.298,"text":"像太空科技、AI科技以及像金創計劃這些的預算其實國民黨完全無視這個是大幅的影響到全民的權益那部長在你們的權序部的報告中裡面有指出替代率上限已經是明目效果其實更應該重視的是退休公務員實際領到的月退休金那我想請教部長現在退休公務員實際領到的月退休金有沒有減少"},{"start":26102.071,"end":26105.364,"text":"應該這樣講,今年來講全部的退休人員已經差不多七成以上都差不多五萬塊了。"},{"start":26106.335,"end":26132.982,"text":"事實上越晚退休的公務人員其實他是領的退休金當然是越高對沒錯齁其實實際上領到的月退休金呢是持續增加了112年新退休者平均的月退休金額有5.85萬那在113年實質的退休金所得多數還是高於5.1萬那其實在少子化的時代齁如果我們停止調降這個替代率那未來的現任公務員退休的時候到底要怎麼辦"},{"start":26133.482,"end":26137.045,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":26160.902,"end":26182.163,"text":"我們不能走回頭路所以我們看看我們身邊我們周圍的公務員們我們必須共同維護基金的永續重視世代正義才能保障全民的權益部長您認為呢好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝那下一位我們請沈博洋委員發言"},{"start":26192.028,"end":26192.268,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26213.337,"end":26224.768,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智�"},{"start":26239.301,"end":26241.482,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第18次全體委員會議"},{"start":26259.339,"end":26288.105,"text":"這段時間退休其實說真的年改完以後退休因為我們年改到現在總共限職人員調整的以明年再加進來預計到14%的薪水所以意思就是說他的本俸就調了14%那我們是本俸乘以2來算退休金所以最近這幾年其實以他所以為什麼剛剛會講說平均的112年的實職拿的退休人會拿到5.8萬左右其實理由就是這樣因為"},{"start":26289.165,"end":26289.405,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26309.821,"end":26310.121,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26328.506,"end":26334.188,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26354.733,"end":26355.053,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26372.782,"end":26374.082,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":26402.788,"end":26407.851,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":26428.763,"end":26431.525,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":26448.26,"end":26448.941,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26475.241,"end":26502.508,"text":"謝謝,那我們下一位請蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員接下來我們請郭育晴委員發言好謝謝主席有請部長麻煩部長"},{"start":26505.788,"end":26507.089,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26528.112,"end":26540.935,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。况此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此"},{"start":26556.798,"end":26562.483,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":26585.002,"end":26611.823,"text":"這個可能這一個選項就沒辦法了對不對好那我們再來看第二個選項好了齁那第二個選項是我們要提高現職的軍公教人員他們的繳納的金額好那這個部分對於現職的軍公教他們還在他們的工作崗位上那麼以現在高考三級第六職等本奉一級的薪水來講好了啦齁那這個部分呢他每一個月大概都要繳到將近3700塊錢"},{"start":26614.085,"end":26614.745,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26631.412,"end":26632.493,"text":"第三個解方有可能是延後退休的年齡"},{"start":26658.132,"end":26658.292,"text":"法律已經這樣規定了"},{"start":26682.567,"end":26695.452,"text":"稍後我會提到另外一個問題了現行的退休所得替代率對於公務人員的生活有沒有一些影響呢或是對於勞工的部分他有沒有覺得相對被剝奪感呢"},{"start":26696.092,"end":26698.553,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":26715.043,"end":26715.524,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":26734.211,"end":26759.511,"text":"這個有沒有相對的被剝奪感我想勞工如果在這個部分如果還覺得自己沒有被剝奪感那真的叫做佛心來著啦我想這個也是我特別點出這樣子的一個問題更不用講跟現職我們軍公教的人員來講我想這個受僱光是勞工的部分他的平均薪資是四萬六千多還不到剛剛講的軍公教退休的五萬一勞工會不會跳腳"},{"start":26761.363,"end":26763.504,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26788.208,"end":26796.874,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了那今天司法及法制委員會就是針對幾位委員針對這個公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的相關條文進行就是這個修正草案的一個討論那白話講就是針對之前的這個年金改革他們希望就是再把它恢復就對了是不是"},{"start":26813.788,"end":26814.27,"text":"這幾個條文法案（"},{"start":26820.612,"end":26848.351,"text":"對阿就是要再把他翻案就對了啦要改回去啦走回頭路啦那我想先請問部長你要簡單的就是簡短時間說一下當年我們進行年輕改革為什麼會推動這樣的一個制度是不是可以簡單講一下我覺得要推動這個制度最重要當然我們很早在就已經先做精算提出預警就是說如果不做改革的話你一定你可能基金會很早就用盡那為什麼造成這個問題因為"},{"start":26850.452,"end":26864.897,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會"},{"start":26880.316,"end":26880.936,"text":"稍後的年輕世代的公務人員"},{"start":26896.886,"end":26897.767,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":26915.982,"end":26939.283,"text":"教職退輔基金和勞保基金會在2027年破產而公職退輔基金也會在2031年破產這是蠻英久說的然後他也說下任總統或下下任總統遲早都會碰到這個問題社會在這段期間會長期惶恐不安所以他也是主張要進行年金改革的"},{"start":26939.872,"end":26940.892,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":26962.381,"end":26985.132,"text":"就算說背負著說得罪公務人員的這個選票這樣子的一個壓力我們也是來推動這個改革在推動改革的期間就是那時候我已經在立法院了所以我們的印象裡面我們北中南東辦了很多的公聽會對不對我記得至少有十場以上嗎很多場我也參加過在主持台東的會議"},{"start":26986.54,"end":27004.195,"text":"對,我們也是經過非常充分的討論我們希望尋求一個比較合理的這樣子的一個所得替代率然後可以保障退休公務人員他們的一個基本的生活所以我們按照這樣子的一個就是討論之後我們進行年金改革我們也有一個樓地板就是說讓這個"},{"start":27007.037,"end":27030.369,"text":"公務人員他們退休之後生活能夠得到保障所以我們要追求的就是一個世代正義讓這個退福基金這個大水庫不要這個枯竭了然後保障所有的年輕的公務人員就是這個之後退休的這樣的一個權利所以我們也看得出來目前他們就是說對公務人員他們領的這個退休金"},{"start":27030.829,"end":27032.69,"text":"撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":27047.834,"end":27060.282,"text":"國民黨委員們不要拙勢驚飛。」就是說對馬英九講過的話他們這樣子的一個在提案要翻案等於是打他們的臉打這個馬英九總統的臉謝謝謝謝陳委員那下一位我們請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席有請施部長"},{"start":27077.665,"end":27104.445,"text":"國安部長委員好部長我想年金改革是一個我們必須進行而且無可迴避的國家政策所以民進黨政府很負責任我們提出的年金改革的一個版本我相信我們幸福面也很多我們從事軍公教退休的很多長輩他們都會一直覺得說過去因為我們這個制度設計的問題"},{"start":27105.606,"end":27134.342,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件,則稱併休醫療捏料比上班更多的畸形現象。所以他們這一次聽到國民黨的立委提出這樣的一個版本,也感覺不可思議,因為他們覺得說我們現在現行的年金改革制度,不只是保證他們一個替代率的一個很好的一個政策,而且是確保未來我們這個年金改革這個制度實行之後我們的退伏基金不會因為這個停滯改革而破綻,所以"},{"start":27135.162,"end":27135.442,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27151.477,"end":27179.386,"text":"財務很大一個問題所以在推動年金改革然後至少讓他可以延後一個世代這樣才會用盡那在這個過程裡面大家一起來做努力我覺得這樣已經有了成果就應該繼續來把它執行我想我們過去很負責任我們經過很嚴謹的一個數據分析跟充分的一個政策討論所以我們提出了這樣一個改革的方案那有效的延長我們公務人員退休撫卹基金的一個運作一個年限"},{"start":27180.146,"end":27183.248,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":27201.539,"end":27201.859,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":27217.073,"end":27217.953,"text":"撫卹法第16條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":27241.581,"end":27268.169,"text":"我想這也是我們為什麼還是從部裡面的專業分析的報告認為說年金改革的步調應該按照現在的法律制度持續來做進行是所以我們期待年金改革是一個持續的一個過程不是只有解決現在的財政問題更應該建立一個長期穩定的一個機制那未來我們應該是要定期評估這樣一個改革的效益而且根據這個數據進行政策微調"},{"start":27269.989,"end":27270.37,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27287.149,"end":27303.105,"text":"對所以本席還是要強烈呼籲我們年金改革是保障國家財政穩健跟世代公平的一個基石我們必須堅持推進拒絕倒退第二個國民黨應該提出這樣一個不負責任的反政治的一個操作"},{"start":27303.806,"end":27328.067,"text":"第三、針對未來的一個年改的修法跟政策的調整我們必須要有專業的數據跟依據來作為一個基礎確保我們改革的公平跟永續性我想這也是關鍵在我們全國國民福祉的一個重要的國家的一個行動那我想這部分我們應該是要請這個我們不管是行政院、立法院我們要好好的來處理這件事情好,部長謝謝"},{"start":27331.81,"end":27332.311,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27358.786,"end":27359.927,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27371.596,"end":27372.557,"text":"撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":27391.928,"end":27411.387,"text":"提前停止會不會造成5年的破產,以你的態度跟看法。因為我們看到前續一部的報告來講的話,你的退伍基金預估可以用到140年,甚至有更多的時間你可以持續的來改革。"},{"start":27412.108,"end":27434.032,"text":"但是請問部長如果依照國民黨的提案的一個版本的話那我們提前停止這個退休所得的替代率的調降那預計會提前多久來破產我相信從早上到現在已經非常清楚了就是四當還是五當的時間可能就會破產了他可能是用在大概到135前後"},{"start":27436.973,"end":27463.085,"text":"那你想這個問題我們大家都知道非常的嚴重非常的嚴重所以說部長如果要避免到這個退伏基金的提前破產的話現在的公務人員是不是要提撥更多的一個基金啊就是說我們有很多選項嘛那如果最後沒有辦法這種選項這個我們不希望走這樣選項啦站在保護所有限職公務人員來講因為近15%啦是"},{"start":27465.186,"end":27489.375,"text":"法例現在上限是18%我們站在部裡的立場是完全不希望提高匯率這個事情如果超過18%就是等於是宣佈我們這個基金會破產嗎?不是那個基金就是說如果我們現在停止的話他就要提早五年嘛"},{"start":27489.815,"end":27490.436,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27507.014,"end":27507.675,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27529.292,"end":27529.773,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":27539.124,"end":27561.065,"text":"副長有沒有做最壞的打算呢?站在全區部立場不能現在先想最壞的一個打算我們要努力來所以我們希望說這一個按照這個年金改革繼續持續下去走啦這個是最好的可是最壞的呢?如果是最壞的情況發生的時候你會採取什麼樣的一個樣態呢?"},{"start":27563.647,"end":27564.367,"text":"撫卹法第16條條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":27579.156,"end":27582.501,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文"},{"start":27595.257,"end":27612.391,"text":"其實這個大家都很擔心可是國民黨為了他自己的一個選票所以他不惜把這個再留子孫這個是我們大家非常擔心的一件事情那在這裡非常謝謝部長的一個詢問也謝謝主席謝謝好下面我們請吳秉瑞委員發言"},{"start":27624.915,"end":27645.376,"text":"主席麻煩請施部長麻煩部長謝謝委員好部長這個退府制度的嚴格從開始到現在也經過了很多次的轉變你歷次的這個退府制度的這個定例立法跟屢次的改變"},{"start":27646.86,"end":27670.405,"text":"有哪一次是沒有經過行政機關提案沒有對案由立法院立法委員單獨提案來去做這個變更的你印象中有沒有我的理解印象中沒有啦沒有啦齁我爸爸也跟我講沒有啦那我在想這個事情其中不是只有光錢的問題這涉及到憲政結構因為"},{"start":27672.915,"end":27697.108,"text":"立法院在我們中華民國孫文先生所定的五權憲法裡面行政權跟立法權在我們今年年初其實是兩個選舉總統的選舉是行政權立法院是國會的選舉那行政權選舉行政權的核心其實說穿了只有兩個東西一個就是人事一個就是經費"},{"start":27699.322,"end":27713.122,"text":"律法權是做審議的如果今天行政權不能決定人事也不能決定他的經費要怎麼去支用那這個行政權就名存實亡嘛"},{"start":27713.991,"end":27734.831,"text":"那所以過去為什麼這樣就是過去無論退府制度如何嚴格如何訂定都是行政機關提出之後經立法院審議通過之後來實施剛剛前面的委員有講到啊不論國民黨執政民進黨執政都有人認為這個年金應該要怎麼改怎麼改無論要怎麼改都是行政機關提出"},{"start":27735.802,"end":27765.085,"text":"那行政機關會去計算這個基金要怎麼用然後這裡面法條還有包括到行政機關行政權每年要花多少費用放在退府上面那如果今天立法院沒有經過行政機關的同意自己就立法我就人數比你多啊啊你的行政權就得乖乖聽我話我就比你大啊那這樣中華民國的行政權要如何來繼續繼續做下去呢這位你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":27766.213,"end":27785.654,"text":"對 我想我在行政院有服務過了解委員的所有的講法我也知道我們預算法也有相關的一些規定就是說所有的一個提案如果不得不增加預算的支出的提案行政院的議事之類的我想這個是屬於立法部門的一個"},{"start":27786.795,"end":27787.675,"text":"律政法律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範律規範"},{"start":27815.382,"end":27840.414,"text":"全民負擔後果。我覺得今天要討論的問題違條的部分不涉及到金額的部分可以討論至於說這樣子由立法院的立法委員提出的法律修正案然後沒有經過行政機關的研究研討這我覺得太可怕了這個樣子可以的話以後每個地方都可以亂來"},{"start":27841.823,"end":27848.168,"text":"我舉個例子我如果很同情勞工我糾集了一半以上的整個立法委員那我勞工全部都要加啊為什麼只有他們可以加我們不能加啊這個國家要如何進行下去我們的憲政要如何維持延續如何來維持呢這個議題可能是比光講要花多少錢啊幾年會破產我覺得更尚未就我讀法律的人而言更尚未的問題啊這是國家憲政結構的問題"},{"start":27871.505,"end":27882.868,"text":"所以我是要請你們要慎重你們要堅持住這不能夠隨便承諾不能亂答應亂答應是違憲的加油謝謝謝謝吳委員那下一位我們請許志傑委員發言主席我們請部長麻煩部長"},{"start":27900.054,"end":27901.074,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27929.608,"end":27931.169,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":27960.151,"end":27984.483,"text":"現在是六萬嘛對不對我覺得我們對原住民要更好啊我覺得給他十萬啊這樣國家可以負擔嗎那原住民的今天每個月四千我覺得我們要對原住民更好啊可不可以給兩萬呢好像都很好啊那我今天老人年金只有三千多塊"},{"start":27986.543,"end":27991.384,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案案案案案案"},{"start":28015.624,"end":28036.54,"text":"今天如果是總統的話不管國民黨的還是民進黨的當總統大家都想要把所有的人民不分族群的照顧好但是你今天是一個大家長的角度你要怎麼樣才能夠把孩子都照顧好把不同族群都照顧好"},{"start":28038.317,"end":28066.083,"text":"而沒有辦法說針對某一個方向然後特別的調高或調低要做一個整體的考量比如說我現在是年輕人我也希望租屋補助,現在差不多三、四千塊而已嘛這個是人事長有關係到的那個租屋補助還是內政部?內政部租屋補助我也希望說可以那個三、四千是要有交易代表要怎麼做最終也要一萬"},{"start":28069.008,"end":28070.089,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具〈公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":28099.602,"end":28126.205,"text":"還有很多邊緣戶喔邊緣戶我現在拿出就是我要申請低收入戶申請不到啊我又沒有半毛錢可以補助喔我現在只有房子我老了我孩子又不孝順政府應該給我兩萬吧所以以上種種我想我是要讓國民黨的藍白的朋友們尤其是藍白的立委諸公們"},{"start":28127.577,"end":28156.412,"text":"今天如果你是一個大家長你要怎麼樣把所有的資源照顧到所有的族群所以我針對年輕改革我就講說如果今天我國家只有一項一個財務分配針對年輕改革其實我也蠻贊成的啦但是呢我再一次的呼籲就是說我們當時馬英九總統說要推動年年輕改革的時候他說不能把問題留給下一任總統"},{"start":28157.822,"end":28184.358,"text":"參議院總統他說越是困難的改革就越要有承擔的勇氣。2016年黃國昌也說全力支持當時的年金改革。2019年柯文哲也說這是20年前就應該處理的事情。而現在更嚴重的是國民黨南白還要用裁劃法刪掉中央六千億。我什麼都要警告,但是我要把你的錢拔掉。"},{"start":28185.993,"end":28187.494,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":28220.236,"end":28220.956,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28251.274,"end":28274.956,"text":"他們建議從113年1月開始或者是114年之後要停止退休所得替代率降低那你們的建議是什麼你可不可以用我們一般人聽得懂的話如果真的如他們所過了之後會對國家財政造成什麼樣的影響會對世代之間的爭議產生什麼樣的影響停止適用的話那未來呢就基金的錢呢"},{"start":28276.147,"end":28280.413,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員賴士葆等一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":28290.947,"end":28297.411,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":28312.473,"end":28334.818,"text":"這個基金如果就一直就這樣停在這裡那當然未來那個會不光是破產那我不曉得財源要從哪裡來我覺得這也是一般國人想聽到的就是我們現在根本不知道財源在哪裡可是我們看起來就要做這個事情如同剛剛許志傑委員也說如果我們之後財化法也通過那所有中央的錢都到地方去了而目前這個基金應該也會受到影響嗎"},{"start":28337.458,"end":28338.178,"text":"稍後會有影響﹖"},{"start":28366.997,"end":28396.569,"text":"我想這個從我們的分析大概就可以理解這個因為如果你基金沒有辦法有足夠來源就一定要全民去負擔嘛是那全民負擔就是等於是下一代的人呢要跟著來負擔嘛所以這一定有世代的問題所以像我自己那這樣好了全市長我再問你喔因為我自己有兩個小孩現在一個大一一個高一你就用這兩個孩子來舉例他們未來在這件事情上如果真的如同藍白的法案通過之後我這兩個小孩以後要背負多少事情背負多少的在這身上"},{"start":28396.749,"end":28397.09,"text":"三（委員張智倫"},{"start":28412.332,"end":28437.955,"text":"所以這個邏輯其實看起來沒有很難那我們再用白話文來講另外一題也許是一般人也會很好奇就是為什麼他們會有這個提案呢在一個提案裡面他們提到錦霄海巡入出國境管理跟移民事務防止人口範圍人員及執行空中任務人員退休所的替代率增加到百分之九十為上限他們特別把某一些業種的拉出來您的評估是為了什麼原因呢"},{"start":28437.995,"end":28438.335,"text":"三）委員張智倫"},{"start":28457.523,"end":28480.663,"text":"因為只是這樣一個狀況你要讓他比別人拿的更多這對其他人完全不公平因為基金本身強調一個最基本的原則所有人繳同樣的費率用同樣的公式來計算那個給付這才是公平所以您最後這句話其實也是簡單的數學大家繳一樣的錢用一樣的費率所以是應該分配到一樣的東西對嗎好謝謝全旭部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝陳委員下一位我們請郭國文委員發言"},{"start":28493.76,"end":28494.665,"text":"謝謝主席有請施部長麻煩部長"},{"start":28501.585,"end":28504.728,"text":"法律上是講60%法律上到60%的情況底下但是我們以實際的本俸乘以兩倍我們是用本俸乘以兩倍他其實實質薪資大概是1.8倍"},{"start":28529.308,"end":28540.524,"text":"對 如果這樣計算方式起來的話我現在想說如果假設是看起來是表面上是60%但是實際上我們這種基數的換算方式很有可能是變成實際上是有替代率70%的可能"},{"start":28542.017,"end":28548.38,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員"},{"start":28569.948,"end":28570.328,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28581.419,"end":28603.057,"text":"我聽說勞保大概是一萬多塊平均大概一萬多塊那勞退可能因為實施還沒有很久實施比較短啦勞退2005實施比較短所以可能不會那麼多啦以勞保的話最高投保金額來換算的話我跟你講事實上他大概約莫連四成都不到現在一萬八"},{"start":28604.638,"end":28622.165,"text":"所以說其實相對其他職業別而言我們現在即便年改之後的70%OECD比較其他的職業類別是相對比較高這是事實嘛對不對那在大會來說因為你要最主要的退休是要保障他是一個社會安全網的概念你覺得70%夠不夠你認為"},{"start":28624.707,"end":28625.447,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":28645.235,"end":28670.581,"text":"那個就是如果純粹就明目上我們真的是比人家高那另外一個我就就教於你了現在2012年他現在停職在所得替代率變70%而不是降到60%嘛這樣子你說50年會停會變成是少撥了2800億嘛對不對然後另外一個部分你還有一個現實的問題是在你112年7月開始新進人就用個人賬戶制的不是嗎你這邊的少一住了嗎"},{"start":28671.311,"end":28671.871,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":28692.517,"end":28693.297,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法第16條條文修正草案案"},{"start":28713.815,"end":28718.737,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":28737.765,"end":28738.606,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":28763.183,"end":28766.086,"text":"謝謝國務委員接下來我們請圖權級委員圖權級委員圖權級委員下一位我們請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":28781.768,"end":28793.999,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩人事總書人事長,包括全序司部長,抱歉我講一個韓文謝謝主席"},{"start":28797.702,"end":28817.291,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十三條條文修正草案案 案 三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十三條條文修正草案 案 三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十三條條文修正草案 案 三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十三條條文修正草案 案 三）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":28826.495,"end":28851.548,"text":"國人健檢資料強化落實預防醫學的部分。」你會覺得很奇怪我現在是健康的同意這個問題我本身是一個臨床醫師所以對這個健康檢查包括如何除了這些年金的改革以外其實國民健康包括我們公務員的健康也是很重要的議題所以今天特別利用這個時間來請教兩位包括舒文市長跟市部長"},{"start":28852.789,"end":28877.15,"text":"因為健康研究年開始就是今年要開始針對於健康的議題打造健康台灣非常非常重要我們過去也發現說我們國人做健康檢查的這種風氣還有真的執行的都不是很高都是六成多四成多大家都覺得自己身體很好不用去做什麼檢查那全序部其實在107年的時候就注意到公務人員有四大死因"},{"start":28878.271,"end":28905.442,"text":"第一個就是癌症第二個是心臟病第三個是自殺第四個是肺部疾病這四個病都是可避免造成死亡的一個疾病就是說如果我們平常有在注意有在做健康檢查知道這些過程的時候就有機會去減少這樣的風險導致他的死亡這是107年的資料考試院也針對這一部分也希望全序部門能夠更多的瞭解跟注意"},{"start":28905.822,"end":28908.603,"text":"一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具〈公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":28927.292,"end":28955.444,"text":"檢檢一次,讓我們現在也允許他有兩年,因為一年會檢查韓國一般是他憂寒,可以改做兩年檢查一次,他可以做的檢查項目會比較周延。而且那個也有往年齡比較年輕的大概四十幾歲,讓他們也可以提早去做檢檢。這個大概這幾年來我們也做了很多的一個調整跟改變。"},{"start":28956.444,"end":28975.922,"text":"所以事實上都有在幫我們公務同仁做這些把關因為我們也知道目前其實很多的健檢資料分布在不同的族群包括勞工、學生、國人跟公務人員公務人員裡面依照這個防護辦法或者實施藥田他會去做健康檢查"},{"start":28976.462,"end":29004.07,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案件中的公務人員必須要提報。到底要怎麼處理才會避免造成影響?根據這個保訓會資安法的規定公立醫院跟學校中的公務人員必須要提報。就是說你如果不盡情你就要去提報給相關機關做處理。其實最後想要了解的就是政府機關真的這些健康檢查除了補助以外因為現在都是用"},{"start":29004.79,"end":29028.102,"text":"各個機關年度預算支援。支援的過程提報的時候就會有一些資料運用的問題這就是比如說個人資料保護法會不會允許未來把這些公務人員相關的資料也能夠納為全民在做保健的時候一個重要的運用這部分就要麻煩考試院跟人事總署"},{"start":29029.102,"end":29030.403,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":29046.015,"end":29060.678,"text":"撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人"},{"start":29075.432,"end":29079.618,"text":"麻煩部長部長你這個議題其實你觀察很久了對"},{"start":29084.284,"end":29103.338,"text":"我們當過總統的人說出年金改革路不改現在不改以後就會後悔是從哪一任總統開始的?你搞不懂?今天很多人提到這應該是馬英文總統的時候就開始做了馬總統當時英明他就希望要做這個事情他英明他當時就知道不改的話因為當時我記得國際氛圍是希臘的危機"},{"start":29106.42,"end":29127.906,"text":"稀辣的退休公務人員去翻垃圾桶找漢堡的那張相片刊在全球媒體上面。為什麼?因為他的那個年金制度破產了。我答應你買多少你就破產了,你還沒中。事實上現在在中國他們的醫保,老人醫保還有他們曾經解放軍的一些承諾也因為財務出問題,承諾東西做不到。"},{"start":29130.635,"end":29154.502,"text":"所以年金改革我相信不同的政黨執政的時候能夠不動大家都希望不要動它但是從馬英九當總統開始就知道不管是軍保公教人員的如果當時不進行改革的話可能會面臨破產的危機那現在當然有人說要把它都改回去如果現在把它改回去因為制度已經變革了"},{"start":29155.842,"end":29156.542,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29177.148,"end":29197.856,"text":"當然是包括現職人員還有已經退休人員同樣都會受傷害我坦白講以退休人員我們應該照顧他可是現職人員我等在叫保費呢甚至於我即將要退了尤其現在如果你年資你大概計劃十年後要退的你聽到要改回去你應該要擔心因為當你退的時候"},{"start":29198.882,"end":29200.104,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":29212.779,"end":29233.872,"text":"在八十四五年以後軍公教本來就沒有18%優存退休制度那一次那一次的改革是為了確保已退的恩己志的人可以領到超過100%所以讓當時剛就職的公教軍領的比較少軍人把樓地板面積定在40%嘛民國八十五年那個時候啊"},{"start":29235.043,"end":29235.323,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29265.483,"end":29289.539,"text":"所以形成了不改不行的危機而且是從馬政府第一任期末端就發現這問題很大了可是他推不動啊那到蔡英文政府的時候好不容易推動了然後現在慢慢穩定下來了還要去攪動他其實傷害的反而是軍公教本席當時是負責軍人年金改革的召委軍改當時的滿意度達到98%為什麼我們不僅要財務平衡"},{"start":29294.923,"end":29307.087,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第13條條文修正草案．一）立法院第14屆第16條條文修正草案．一）立法院第16屆第17會期司法及法制委員會第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第17會期司法及法制委員會第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第"},{"start":29312.589,"end":29327.838,"text":"因為制度改變因為我們改變的制度他退休的時候月退反而增加一萬二就是那15%而軍人跟公教人員不一樣公教人員可以做到主席我馬上收尾了公教人員只要不犯錯可以做到65歲"},{"start":29328.979,"end":29330.301,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29344.176,"end":29348.338,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":29364.478,"end":29383.605,"text":"現在因為政治的因素都不去看內容也不看這個歷史背景去翻動攪動他到最後受害的是現在可能已經年近中壯年的軍公教人員甚至於新進的軍公教人員繳的錢可能未來要支付這被恢復的錢坑"},{"start":29384.825,"end":29404.253,"text":"這件事情不是政治問題這件事情不應該有黨派之分這件事情是國家永續發展照顧所有我們公職人員很重要的一個使命所以我真的希望包含昭偉包含我們不同黨派的同伴們這個事情不應該拿出來政治操作它既不道德而且很危險謝謝"},{"start":29406.329,"end":29428.584,"text":"好謝謝王委員因為今天登記發言人到67位所以我們比較重視時間好謝謝各位好那下一位我們請蔡育瑜委員發言好謝謝主席那我們是有請我們全序部司部長麻煩部長部長齁部長齁"},{"start":29434.864,"end":29456.47,"text":"今天在討論這個年改的議題那事實上我們想到了在於蔡英文執政的第二年那開始啟動了年改在當時召開公聽會包括說由總統府陳建仁當時是副總統所主持的這個年改的公聽會那這樣召開了幾場"},{"start":29458.291,"end":29459.512,"text":"三（委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":29480.807,"end":29481.868,"text":"二）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":29496.32,"end":29497.001,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29516.536,"end":29520.079,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":29542.602,"end":29554.424,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":29570.367,"end":29573.17,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":29596.491,"end":29611.093,"text":"整個物價指數也好至少對退休的人應該要予以國家予以照顧的在限職的有條心已經退休的也針對所謂物價指數然後去給他去做調整也調整了6%"},{"start":29612.575,"end":29617.616,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29641.325,"end":29662.077,"text":"部長我覺得這樣的狀況站在你是全序部因為你這個去對公務員嘛你領導這些公務員那部長你的看法是怎樣我覺得年改實施以後就像委員剛剛講已經進入到我們往那個方好的方向在走那對現職或者是新進的"},{"start":29663.078,"end":29663.879,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":29678.382,"end":29702.218,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個站在政府照顧公務員這個都是毋庸置疑就比方說現在工程的工務員他會覺得他的薪資比民間少所以現在行政院在今年七月也針對工程人員他們的一個專業然後給他們說續扶的一個獎金這個續扶的獎金也是看他留越久他的獎金越高"},{"start":29703.498,"end":29729.243,"text":"在軍中的士官長也是有這樣續扶獎金然後這幾年也提高了包括警察包括危險工作他的這個危險的一個加擠警勤加擠也提高所以這是政府可以去做的但是這一些用國家的預算做的跟所謂基金要去支付的這就是兩件事情我們基金就是要讓它永續嘛"},{"start":29730.143,"end":29731.864,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":29757.675,"end":29760.556,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":29786.164,"end":29787.445,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":29806.544,"end":29806.964,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":29830.479,"end":29853.597,"text":"議員好部長好針對這個年金改革我們的主張是要持續進行因為我們希望年金可以永續但是非常的遺憾在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革終止那現在我們最擔心的今天全序部你們給出來的意見是你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛那最主要原因是什麼呢我想不繼續的話傷害的是限職的人"},{"start":29859.062,"end":29864.286,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":29887.845,"end":29888.326,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29908.963,"end":29921.817,"text":"所以現在在職的同仁都是在應該都是在這個基金裡面所以就是說我們全國36萬的公務員裡面可能有我在猜大概有33、4萬人是屬於現在還在這個基金因為我印象中我們"},{"start":29923.07,"end":29927.515,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":29943.47,"end":29945.031,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":29967.163,"end":29967.844,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":29985.945,"end":29987.686,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":30003.752,"end":30029.12,"text":"沒有錯所以呢我想每一個委員當然都有權利提出法案但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢那另外我也希望來去釐清過去這幾年我們來降低這個所得替代率我們總共四年來節省了2774億嘛"},{"start":30031.681,"end":30038.266,"text":"這些錢用到哪裡去了呢?通通回給基金也是回到我們的年改基金所以呢這些省下來的錢並不是說政府部門拿去作為他圖來用不是我們拿回來是挹注到我們的退撫基金也就是我們在職的公務人員他們未來的退休金除了這個以外我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給我們基金因為我們實施新制所以目前在累計撥補了294億左右"},{"start":30059.923,"end":30060.544,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":30078.687,"end":30091.434,"text":"現在在野黨第一個還在黨總預算第二個在野黨版本的裁劃法修法會讓中央的預算少了幾千億所以我相當的擔心現在我們公務預算撥補給退府基金的這191未來因為這是一個大水庫"},{"start":30095.196,"end":30121.443,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 也會受到影響那一樣受害的是我們在職公務人員他往後退休的福利所以我希望不分黨派大家要一起來做我們全體公務人員的後盾因為他們是跟我們一樣都是為人民來服務謝謝好謝謝五委員那現在為我們請審法會委員審法會委員審法會委員那接下來我們請五立法委員發言"},{"start":30136.7,"end":30163.761,"text":"謝謝主席有請全序部長麻煩部長委員好部長好辛苦了我來立法院五年了可是我在進來的第一年我有參與一個修法叫做退休年資要納入年改前已具有欲因留職挺薪的年資但是沒有通過"},{"start":30165.117,"end":30194.062,"text":"那我隔年呢又參與了一個修法叫做公立學校教職員退休資遣撫蓄條例是第八六十七七十七一百條那麼可以通過的就是限職公教人員跟勞工私校教職人員在退輔給予扣稅的規定一致軍公教人員退休退役後轉任私校仍然可以領到退休奉"},{"start":30194.742,"end":30214.165,"text":"那另外一個部分是公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第1492條那它的效果是軍公教及政務人員每個月繳付的退府基金費用比照勞工和私校教職員不課稅並回溯至110年1月1日起算"},{"start":30215.186,"end":30243.418,"text":"那我在隔年呢我又參與了一個修法那它的效果就是可以來分年撥補退撫基金法制化讓我們的基金永續那2023年在隔年呢我又有參與一個公教人員比照一般勞工每個月提撥退撫而且免稅那公教退撫基金財務缺口撥補那我講這些就是推動完成這個修正的讓"},{"start":30244.438,"end":30270.146,"text":"限職的公教人員得以與勞工私校教職人員在退府給予扣稅的規定一致。好我以上講的這些部長您都熟悉吧我是五月才任職不過這些這些改變我印象中大部分我都知道好但為什麼要講這些我是要讓您知道我其實對於年金改革"},{"start":30271.496,"end":30271.616,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":30299.028,"end":30299.208,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":30310.322,"end":30318.731,"text":"草案的調整基本上並不是涉及到基金根本的財務狀況所以是微調我們把一些可以調的過來的我們還是盡量的把它優化讓法條更好對不對那我就要請教您其實我經常面對的就是人家問我一句話"},{"start":30331.345,"end":30342.836,"text":"政府說年金會破產是騙人的騙我們的所以軍公教人員感受很不好請教部長到底年金破產這件事是政府在騙人嗎"},{"start":30344.022,"end":30344.122,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":30372.082,"end":30385.239,"text":"改革如果是一條對的路我們就不需要回頭但是我覺得態度是要有的我剛剛講微調讓他優化就是一種態度"},{"start":30386.806,"end":30411.618,"text":"那如果說我精算就是會破產人家算就不會破產我跟你講一個簡單的事情前天發生的我碰到一個退役的軍公教人員他說他兩次都沒有選我因為他恨死民進黨做年金改革但是他看到我為他做事為他服務他說他釋懷了他沒有那麼恨民進黨了"},{"start":30412.859,"end":30418.604,"text":"所以我覺得這個社會溝通的部分我覺得很重要所以呢我在這裡就是要特別的講我自己也覺得說年金改革持續進行的方向我覺得例如未來讓公立學校的教職員跟私校教職員一樣可以選擇何時提理這是我們的態度那我是希望說國家其實沒有犧牲軍警公教的利益仍然透過許多的修法來保障跟優化"},{"start":30439.862,"end":30442.524,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":30461.892,"end":30464.194,"text":"撫卹法第16條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":30488.294,"end":30516.839,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天我們委員會是討論這一個公務人員的退休之前的第37條的修正案那我必須很嚴正的態度來表達我們的基本立場但是經過各界的努力總算在2017年完成了年金改革那我想這已經不是制度的改革更是世代正義的實踐那現在如果要冒然停止這個退休替代儀的調降機制的話我認為這並不是一個負責任的態度"},{"start":30517.879,"end":30545.554,"text":"那我們剛才來看一下數據我們部長的報告已經很清楚的說明了現在的退休的公務人員七成以上的平均那十之月退休所得是超過五萬元那高碰點的退休者是高達是六到八萬元這已經是高於民間平均的這個新常性的月薪也就是說大概是可以到達現值的公務人員平均月薪的八成"},{"start":30546.554,"end":30568.461,"text":"這樣子的退休所得水準是否有如部分主張者所說的不足以維持基本生活?我想以這個數當然每個人會對什麼叫基本生活的定義不一樣不過我相信國人一般的這個基本生活來講一個退休人員來講如果你問我的話我應該自己不會用到那麼多錢"},{"start":30569.619,"end":30590.425,"text":"那我是主要是講說我們現在其實基本上來看的話我認為是已經是這樣的月薪的還有這樣的數字其實已經是高於就像我剛才講的今天多於我們經常性的月薪值了我認為這是對公務人員的過去他們對國家的付出的一個很基本的一個付出我們的這個反應那我想都有了"},{"start":30590.965,"end":30615.221,"text":"所以我們必須接下來要正式的就是說這個退撫基金有沒有辦法財務永續如果現在我們就貿然終止這個替代率的調降機制那根據你們的這個評估未來50年是不是會減少2800億元的沒錯那是基金用完的時間是提前幾年提前到4到5年對嘛那這樣子有沒有辦法永續"},{"start":30616.841,"end":30640.083,"text":"當然會對永續有很大的一個衝擊就會有問題在嘛那其實我們任何的政策就是希望它有它的延續性它的永續性那包含公務人員也是那政府當然我們不斷的強調他必須要用完整的皮膚還有充分的對話如果說我們只是單純的想要去討好某一個族群那某一個族群"},{"start":30640.503,"end":30648.126,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":30662.352,"end":30680.242,"text":"這一個確保退補基金的財務永訓訓是不可以短期的訴求來去犧牲基金的長期健全第二點我還是也要特別在這個地方再強調不需要兼顧每一個世代的權益不可以讓年輕的公務人員來去承擔過重的負擔"},{"start":30681.222,"end":30707.567,"text":"最後就是我希望說有一個完整的財務影響的評估報告他可以讓我們有機會來跨黨派跨世代的充分討論因為我們不是只是要針對一個世代讓一個世代好我們希望每一個世代都共榮共好所以面對年金制度這一個這麼嚴重的議題我們不能夠在缺乏完整評估專業意見的這個諮詢的狀況之下甚至沒有在社會充分的對話之下那我們就冒然的通過修法"},{"start":30708.047,"end":30708.587,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":30741.558,"end":30757.944,"text":"核心存委員核心存委員核心存委員劉建國委員劉建國委員劉建國委員副坤崎委員副坤崎委員副坤崎委員"},{"start":30769.96,"end":30779.075,"text":"徐巧興委員徐巧興委員徐巧興委員張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員"},{"start":30780.322,"end":30806.65,"text":"牛許廷委員牛許廷委員牛許廷委員秋毅瑩委員秋毅瑩委員秋毅瑩委員李坤澤委員李坤澤委員李坤澤委員賴瑞榮委員賴瑞榮委員賴瑞榮委員黃建豪委員黃建豪委員黃建豪委員"},{"start":30808.92,"end":30814.842,"text":"業源之委員賴士葆等馬文君委員賴士葆等林月琴委員賴士葆等"},{"start":30825.545,"end":30829.668,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":30841.465,"end":30861.955,"text":"李彥秀委員李彥秀委員李彥秀委員陳庭菲委員陳庭菲委員陳庭菲委員羅美玲委員羅美玲委員羅美玲委員林黛樺委員林黛樺委員林黛樺"},{"start":30865.343,"end":30866.244,"text":"撫卹法定人數不足"},{"start":30893.674,"end":30912.579,"text":"謝謝主席主席也辛苦今天主要來討論這個公務人員退休資遣撫卹法我想最主要是給公務人員主席請坐公務人員退休生活的依據絕對不是為了要這個政策買標或是保護自己的政治工具那我想在第九屆的時候"},{"start":30913.739,"end":30922.844,"text":"這個類型這個歷程這個背景資料大家也很清楚花了將近快這個四個委員會的時間從4月19一直審到這個106年的6月20才完成三堵然後"},{"start":30930.396,"end":30945.95,"text":"現在我們迫不及待要來修這個法我在這邊也要特別提醒過去有幾個在野的委員有特別提出希望有個精算報告然後希望看到最新的數據然後來提出一個永續的基金改革的制度再來討論修法"},{"start":30947.051,"end":30975.346,"text":"那現在都還沒有出來我目前為什麼這麼急救張那而且到目前為止也只有看到這個國民黨委員的版本連民進黨的版本都沒有出來我為什麼特別提到民眾黨因為民眾黨的委員吳春成吳春成委員也特別提一個叫壯世代的草案那壯世代這個相關的草案是跨國部會然後是55歲以上那台灣又要進入到"},{"start":30975.776,"end":30978.166,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":30979.71,"end":31008.129,"text":"在目前台灣整體的社會醫療它是發達的情況之下那有很多65歲以上的其實都有具備這個相對的工作能力那就像我們我們人事長齁我們的這個蘇俊隆人事長齁我記得好像是六十四啊嘛齁高啊啦齁 還有一年而已齁 還有一年齁那個司部長也是對不對 也還有一年齁"},{"start":31013.838,"end":31021.473,"text":"如果說很多65歲的公務人員能夠繼續工作,他並不是為了一定要這麼工作,反而是國家需要他。"},{"start":31022.571,"end":31026.332,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":31048.436,"end":31073.009,"text":"全世界現在都在討論這樣的一個內容跟方向所以如果未來公務人員要比照勞工可以用這個協商的方式來延後退休針對這些有意願繼續留在職場那國家也需要這些人才的貢獻自己的經驗與能力的中高齡的公務人員他們的退伏要如何計算才公平部長這邊有相關的計算嗎這邊有相關的計算嗎請問部長"},{"start":31079.754,"end":31103.914,"text":"我想那個延後退休這個事情當然是整個人力運用了一環那我們目前沒有這方面的資料呢對嘛就還沒有還沒有還沒有這樣的一個一個一個一個一個大概的去盤整然後去精算的一種方式對不對那我要請問林市長在台灣進入到超高齡的社會情況之下公務人員是我能像勞工一樣與政府協商來延後退休"},{"start":31105.114,"end":31113.998,"text":"委員報告,到保證為止,到65這部分我們還維持住,但是勞工的部分因為政府機關有一些是勞工身份的,這部分我們有開放讓他們去做協商"},{"start":31124.844,"end":31142.203,"text":"具有勞工身份的我們已經有開放對不對讓他可以做協商嘛對不對延後退休嘛就像我講的嘛不具有勞工身份的就不行正式的公務人員是公兼勞的部分目前我們是維持掉的因為"},{"start":31143.224,"end":31161.331,"text":"這個部分如果要延後的話牽涉的議題會很複雜我希望要有更多的對話大家有行程公司在啦因為那不是把我影響到公務機關那跟勞工的部份喔整個整體都要做主要去宿客啦你覺得正式的公務人員國家有必要兌換這個方向大家來做好好的檢討嗎?"},{"start":31169.774,"end":31172.857,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31194.622,"end":31196.684,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":31217.579,"end":31243.093,"text":"法律修正草案案件很密切、很貼切。所以這有稍高差別,要花更多時間大家好好討論、好好博點,讓更好的郵政、公務人員繼續在65年以後,可以留在我們的國家和政府當中拍拚。所以他的計算方式,他的退伏和之前相關的計畫方式,就必須要再重新做一個調整。這樣就有六人黨了。"},{"start":31251.956,"end":31269.281,"text":"請問在座的委員,現在有林月琴委員、葉元智委員、李坤哲委員及邱益穎委員請求詢答。請問在場者有異議?沒有。好,那我們就請依序委員進行詢答。我們先請林月琴委員進行詢答。"},{"start":31282.049,"end":31284.71,"text":"主席麻煩部長麻煩部長委員好委員好作為立法院我是下一代連線的委員今天站在這裡感到很難過很暗惋惜因為這個國家正在"},{"start":31303.735,"end":31333.235,"text":"退回無法想像的樣子。」因為國民黨今天排案那個審查公務人員退休資遣撫卹法。名義上是說審查實質上就是要推翻掉過去蔡英文總統執政努力推動的年改。所以想問部長目前蔡英文總統執政時期推動的年改版本預計退撫基金可以維持多久?針對於年輕的公務人員是否有同樣保障?"},{"start":31333.955,"end":31353.499,"text":"我應該當初在推動的時候就設定至少一個世代所以如果一直走下去的話我們預估會到140年但是中間如果我們再多做比方說財務上的投資效益會更好各式各樣的方式進展當然可能還會再往後我想這是我們當初所希望走的方向"},{"start":31354.082,"end":31377.72,"text":"所以部長看起來年改可能就是被誤會了,絕對不是歧視公務員犧牲公務員實際上反而是為了國家永續發展或者換句話說讓每位退休軍公教都能夠真正的放心平安度過退休後的日子無需擔心是否國家垮台基金破產退休金領不到這是我想是年改的初衷那第二就要問"},{"start":31379.221,"end":31380.603,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":31400.523,"end":31421.81,"text":"我想所有的物價指數變動我們都有一個退休公務人員的退休所的本來就會跟著物價5%左右就會跟著做調整所以過去年改以後也調了6%了那所以我們的部裡面的資料顯示說目前所有退休人員不管他是哪一個年度退休大概七成左右都會有五萬塊以上的"},{"start":31423.19,"end":31451.379,"text":"實際上拿了月退休金所以這個數字其實還是高於勞工體系的月薪資所得我看到我們現在的平均家戶裡邊一個人如果要生活的話大概兩萬三所以這五萬塊也是可以過日子那再來就想問目前國民黨的版本修法如果退回過去請問我國每一年的財政負擔要增加多少是否目前有財源可以支援"},{"start":31452.039,"end":31452.779,"text":"我沒有辦法支撐下去嗎?"},{"start":31475.405,"end":31481.84,"text":"所以目前現行版本的話運作上全系部是否有看到什麼自愛難行之處?"},{"start":31483.626,"end":31503.476,"text":"這個已經推動的五年六年了那我想順順利利讓他到118年那我覺得對基金來講是一個永續的一個方式那更何況這中間的隨著我們物價的就是公務人員的調薪或者是我們定期的退休人員根據物價來做調整我們現在覺得說大家看到的是說那個"},{"start":31504.256,"end":31506.618,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":31531.121,"end":31531.781,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31552.185,"end":31573.031,"text":"委員好部長我之前跟一個公立醫院的院長聊天他說現在越來越少醫生願意到公立醫院資源少那他跟醫生講說沒關係你來我們這邊我們公務人員保障比較多結果你知道醫生那個年輕醫生回答什麼他說現在政府講的話都不算數誰知道你現在講的東西到時候會不會兌現"},{"start":31574.771,"end":31603.744,"text":"這就是年金改革帶來的後遺症他其實殘害了我們整個公務體系對於我們招募優秀人才產生極大的負面的影響我就想問啊現在當時你們政府講說因為年金財產要破產了所以呢這個法益很高因此政府可以不用維持信貸保障原則也可以突破法不作及既往原則是不是這樣"},{"start":31605.612,"end":31633.128,"text":"撫卹法在大法官會議解釋裡面也沒有宣告這個違憲我只是問說你們的主張是這樣嘛我現在沒有在跟你討論有沒有違憲我是說當時你們違反信賴保護原則以及法不溯及既往原則就是你認為說有更高的法益嘛對嘛就是這樣嘛我想請教一下請問一下這個所謂的退伏基金要破產真的是因為公務人員領太多嗎"},{"start":31634.807,"end":31656.533,"text":"還是說跟你的基金的報酬率的計算有關你當時基金報酬率是算多少錢當初的基金報酬率大概是4%左右你是算4%對然後覺得會破產對那如果是你的計算方式是5%的話會破產嗎我還是跟委員報告你回答我的問題如果你的報酬率是5%的話會破產嗎"},{"start":31658.47,"end":31667.913,"text":"委員我跟您報告整個現在負債還是有2.9兆所以即使我們現在提升到7點多如果現在負債有2.9兆的話那請問一下之後你還是會砍人家的年金嗎會不會我們會努力維持這個會不會嘛你回答我問題啦會不會你是不是覺得會破產就要繼續砍人家年金會不會我想我們就繼續讓這個年金的繼續這個按照原則所以不會嘛"},{"start":31685.999,"end":31686.52,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":31702.313,"end":31707.195,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":31725.442,"end":31741.132,"text":"所以真正會造成這個年金可能破產原因跟退休人員領多少無關嘛真正的關鍵是你報酬率太低嘛那結果因為你報酬率太低的結果你說因為你們領太多當時的民進黨的幹部還說你們公務人員不要吵喔"},{"start":31741.972,"end":31742.652,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":31766.026,"end":31767.227,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":31795.518,"end":31804.248,"text":"公務人員現在公家機關要招募優秀人才就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓大家不敢來啊我要幫公家等一下我還沒有問問題啦我還沒有問問題我沒有問問題現在的問題是說我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意的進到公務人員服務"},{"start":31813.739,"end":31840.248,"text":"過去的公教人員他們犧牲了企業的高薪他們盜公家機關服務他們奠定了台灣經濟的基礎包括我們現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦他們頂低了計劃然後建立起來的結果咧現在你說因為他們領太多所以就把他們的退休金砍了我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎你現在還堂而皇之沾沾自喜覺得自己的年金改革做得很好"},{"start":31841.616,"end":31841.956,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":31856.823,"end":31857.763,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":31873.871,"end":31886.938,"text":"第一沒有要恢復18%第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了從75%降到67.5%所得替代率希望你們先停損先檢討一下"},{"start":31889.139,"end":31904.615,"text":"理解一下如果你現在所得替代率到67.5%狀況之下未來的基金有沒有可能因應假設提高投資報酬率有沒有可能就以這樣子停損的基礎就這樣下去現在只是要做這樣的事情版本就這樣而已啊"},{"start":31910.942,"end":31934.374,"text":"投資報酬率只是其中一個因素但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為了這麼大的缺口是從一開始就沒有根據基金所計算最適費力做提撥所以加上我們所的制度退休制度所以你接下來要怎麼做嗎你覺得如果有可能破產你要繼續砍人家年金嗎還是你會找別的方法"},{"start":31935.174,"end":31937.896,"text":"副委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣副委員副委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣副委員副委員賴士"},{"start":31960.09,"end":31971.677,"text":"那依照上午的宣告本次會議繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束及法案提案條文宣讀完畢為止好接下來我們請李坤澤委員發言謝謝趙偉請一下部長麻煩部長"},{"start":31989.727,"end":31990.989,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":32005.31,"end":32007.332,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":32028.187,"end":32031.149,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":32047.864,"end":32071.721,"text":"他們認為老保有撥補但是認為是對軍公教的年金有削減的這樣的一個政策他們認為這是有差異性的其實這是非常扭曲而且是非常謬誤的一個說法來請部長簡單說明一下我想在整個我們對政府對軍公教這邊的一個基金來講我們改革所省下來所有錢通通一樣"},{"start":32072.501,"end":32081.849,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":32099.164,"end":32126.252,"text":"老保在2012年的時候因為老保的財務精算報告提出說老保有財務的這樣的一個破產的危機的狀況所以在當時2012年當時的行政院長是陳聰老委會的主委是王如璇那當時我就提出兩大訴求第一個是政府撥補第二個是國家最終支付責任"},{"start":32126.992,"end":32132.556,"text":"那努力了多年終於在蘇貞昌院長的時候2020年政府編了200億2021年編了220億2022年編了300億2023年編到750億那今年2024年編到1200億明年是希望有1300億我要跟國民黨的委員說這個政府的撥補還沒有明文入法"},{"start":32154.496,"end":32174.761,"text":"這是實質的撥補還沒有進行到下一個階段勞保條例第69條的一個修正勞保要有明文入法這才是安心條款那勞保還是必須要面對未來的勞保年金的改革就是為了要讓他永續的進行還是面臨同樣的一個議題"},{"start":32177.335,"end":32198.243,"text":"我們在這邊都必須要向所有的國人來報告我們都要照顧每一個國民這是我們共同的責任不管是軍公教還是勞工還是各階層都要運用國家的資源來保障他們一個基本的權益那相關的有關於勞保這樣的一個"},{"start":32202.369,"end":32215.014,"text":"保障他們認為說對軍公教沒有保障軍公教在軍公教退休人員撫蓄基金的管理條例第八條就有明文規定"},{"start":32215.919,"end":32242.257,"text":"他們的年金如果有經費的問題政府要撥補而且是有國家最終支付責任他們有明文入法國民年金國民年金法第49條也有明文規定國民年金如果有經費的問題政府也要撥補也要負最終支付責任不管哪一個階層我們國家都要負起這樣的一個基本的責任來讓部長做最後的一個補充說明"},{"start":32252.053,"end":32255.056,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":32259.032,"end":32282.373,"text":"請教一下就邱毅穎委員之後陸續由已登記未及發言的委員請求發言那請問一下在場委員是不是我們同意已登記未及發言的委員發言就是公平好那如果沒有異議的話那就後續依到場請求順序依序進行發言好謝謝那下一位我們請邱毅穎委員發言"},{"start":32302.846,"end":32316.872,"text":"謝謝主席這個我剛剛在問說到底是要問市部長還是要問蘇仁市長兩個都互指對方都問了都問好了啦以示公平來兩位都上來"},{"start":32318.567,"end":32337.177,"text":"作太久對身體也不太好。」委員好。這個部長跟人事長請問一下你們有沒有聽過曾經有一位總統說年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就會後悔"},{"start":32339.238,"end":32361.231,"text":"可以指出這位是誰嗎馬英九先生2012年的時候說年金改革一定要做今天不做明天就會後悔那請問兩位有沒有聽過年金改革一定要快做否則將成國家的未爆彈有沒有有聽過吧那這位是誰說的"},{"start":32364.461,"end":32390.171,"text":"不是啦你不要一直講馬前總統這個答案不一定正確這個是吳敦義先生說的這兩位都是國民黨的大佬年金改革一定要做不做會後悔年金改革不做會成為國家的未爆彈但是這兩位都做不到也沒辦法做也不能做也不會做"},{"start":32391.221,"end":32415.593,"text":"所以年金改革就由蔡英文來做這年金改革改了之後我想請問一下任市長對國家帶來什麼樣的正面影響我想他主要有兩個非常重大的意義就是一個永續的概念另外一個是世代公平正義的問題"},{"start":32416.789,"end":32419.993,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案（事由．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":32428.513,"end":32456.308,"text":"那現在會面臨到什麼樣的狀況?你的永續是怎麼樣的永續?如果不做會不會破產?什麼時候破產?一定會破產一定會提早破產提早到什麼時候?119年119年就會破產嘛119到1120轉眼就很快了嘛是不是?有可能我們現在坐在台上這幾位議事人員等到您退休的時候你已經沒有年金可以領的會不會出現這樣的狀況?"},{"start":32460.409,"end":32482.279,"text":"現在這幾位我看你們都還有大概一二十年才會退休嘛如果119年破產的話你們會領不到退休金喔是不是這樣好過去的這五六年年金的改革方案在實施之後延緩了破產的危機但是我們其實還有潛在的2.9兆的債務是不是這樣"},{"start":32487.699,"end":32509.689,"text":"如果現在按照國民黨委員的提案要再把它調整回來來部長會產生什麼樣的狀況就是會提早提早再把提早到什麼時候還是119年嗎還是因為過去因為有6年的緩衝所以會再晚一點點所以他又要往前大概在135年這樣"},{"start":32511.759,"end":32535.617,"text":"所以本來是119年那因為我們做了年金改革本來會到140年對不對那現在如果要再把它改回來的話會再往前提早是不是這樣所以有可能就是你現在改回來台上這一線議事人員有可能領得到但是未來新進的公務人員大概一毛都領不到嘛是這樣嗎"},{"start":32536.297,"end":32557.051,"text":"就是最近這幾年進來的同仁當然就會壓力會更大請問一下這對國家是好事嗎這對未來新進的這些新進的公務人員是好事嗎你要現在就告訴他你進來當公務人員但公家單位等到你退休的時候年金是破產的你一毛錢都沒得領因為前面領完了"},{"start":32558.163,"end":32587.014,"text":"是這樣嗎那如果是這樣我們應該應該老實的告訴大家不要再去考公務人員了因為你沒有退休年金可以領啊因為國民黨要把他改回去啦年金破產了年限會提早啊人事長跟權序部長我們不能說謊的你知道嗎如果是這樣你們應該要老實的告訴公務人員不要再去考公務人員了因為你們未來會沒有年金可以領等到你退休的時候"},{"start":32588.7,"end":32615.115,"text":"你只能望著壁紙在那裡吹風你沒有年金可以領欸這對國家是好事嗎?對公務人員是好事嗎?現在改你還是回來照顧給原來的那一個區塊那個所得替代率又回到上升的階段年金又提早破產你對後面的人員對後面願意報效國家的人要怎麼交代?"},{"start":32618.644,"end":32644.789,"text":"雖然我平常不是很同意馬英九先生的話不過馬英九先生講這一段話倒是我是認同的年金改革一定要做一定要做台灣不能再走回頭路這件事情我希望人事長跟全序部我們一定要站穩我們的立場年金改革如果再走回頭路台灣就沒有了"},{"start":32645.953,"end":32657.859,"text":"那這是滿足了誰?好到了誰?把臺灣整個弄到滅亡,會好到什麼人?大家應該心內憂愁啦。謝謝。好,謝謝卿委員。那下一位我們請邱智維委員發言。"},{"start":32688.563,"end":32700.732,"text":"國家的利益永遠是高於政黨的利益,對不對?任何的制度,國家的制度一定要可藏可有而且一定要兼顧世代公平"},{"start":32701.872,"end":32726.973,"text":"立法者你每天在思考是怎麼樣讓國家更進步讓人民更幸福建立的法律制度相關的作為都是要扶國立民而不是禍國殃民兩位同意嗎?當然我非常同意所以剛剛邱議員說啊馬前總統他說這個年改非做不可對不對這個吳副總統"},{"start":32733.277,"end":32759.609,"text":"也說如果這個是不改這變成這個這個未爆彈一旦引爆會引起很大的一個問題社會問題國家的危機公務人員相關的權益對不對所以這兩位啊都曾經當過國家元首啊我相信他當過國家元首的時候他應該是思考到國家的利益對不對所以才會說出這種話嘛"},{"start":32761.684,"end":32790.655,"text":"他同時也是他們兩位同時也擔任過國民黨的黨主席所以他們當時說這句話應當是為了國家的利益或者制度的永續存在嘛我不曉得為什麼年改在他們那邊沒辦法執行這個蔡英文總統執行這是一個福國利民讓制度永續生存也兼顧世代公平對不對"},{"start":32792.145,"end":32807.01,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案（二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六"},{"start":32820.762,"end":32838.717,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員"},{"start":32846.687,"end":32848.648,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":32877.507,"end":32896.512,"text":"事實上他破產不只是影響到縣子公務員還有退休的甚至還影響到未來很多公務人員他會有疑慮不敢來考公務員他影響的層面還是非常廣會找不到公務人員"},{"start":32898.746,"end":32909.195,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫�"},{"start":32925.489,"end":32926.25,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":32966.973,"end":32984.469,"text":"主席麻煩請人事長麻煩人事長好人事長好好那我想請教一下在這一次我們這個原民會組織法的修法爭議我不知道您有沒有注意到知道這件事嗎"},{"start":32987.152,"end":33000.123,"text":"有提到因為顏明慧在執行的預算的預算金額增加所以你們也期待說這些顏額也可以有一個比例的一個增加應該不是這個部分"},{"start":33002.847,"end":33003.487,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33022.259,"end":33033.651,"text":"這些經費節省起來然後未來要挪到人民會去聘請一般的公務人員使用我要請教任市長經費可以這樣子挪來挪去嗎?"},{"start":33037.758,"end":33052.649,"text":"這個一個組織的一個安定性我覺得這是非常重要那做這樣的話我覺得對某些繼承的我們各個族群委員來講是有一點點不公平"},{"start":33053.593,"end":33067.05,"text":"除了不公平以外我想就是說這個整個公務那個原民會公務人員的這些員額也不是說他們把這個經費刪掉省起來就挪到別的地方也不是這樣子說挪就挪了吧"},{"start":33068.513,"end":33085.325,"text":"基本上我們在編人事會都會考量到他要執行哪些的業務這些業務是新增的還是做哪些我們會給額外的人事會因為人事會本來就是這個科目很明確的它的用途"},{"start":33086.585,"end":33086.965,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33112.851,"end":33138.189,"text":"他們最近一直在用這種話術在欺騙民眾欺騙我們原住民讓大家覺得說你們為什麼要讓原民會的人力一直都不足處於不足的狀態但是事實上這個原民會原額的問題我有再跟原民會再三的確認其實他們編制原額是206人那明年的話呢他們的預算原額你們這邊是給到198人"},{"start":33142.172,"end":33167.374,"text":"在10月底的統計實際原額是166人雖然他們年底原住民特考會再補進這些人力但是原民會的人力不足的問題它並不是預算原額的問題它是實際原額太低也就是說原民會根本就是找不到人或者是留不住人"},{"start":33168.255,"end":33170.416,"text":"這才是真正的問題那針對這些問題我要請教任市長說那你覺得有什麼建議應該要怎麼辦"},{"start":33177.289,"end":33203.663,"text":"因為事實上我也跟很多原住民的朋友有討論過來尤其在顏明慧他的上班地點在新莊那裡那從其他地方來的事實上我知道原住民有一個非常好的習慣就是說他還是喜歡回到他的風趟來工作因為那裡是他生活的場域所以到都會區來工作的原住民相對會比較"},{"start":33206.204,"end":33208.727,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一）委員"},{"start":33225.96,"end":33250.174,"text":"這個部分我們上一年那個土管處我們已經有講我知道你一定會講到土管處啦那但是我想土管處是這樣子因為這個土管處這個比喻不是很好因為土管處的家籍他土管處跟其他的這個土地管理的單位像這個國產署地政司一樣都在辦理土地業務所以就應該要給一樣的家籍"},{"start":33251.414,"end":33278.081,"text":"這個邏輯上是這樣所以不要拿圖管處來做這個比喻我們刪掉這個圖管處這個比喻然後我們好好再去想一下我們再來跟顏明輝讓你好好溝通希望你們在一個月內這個怎麼補齊這個人力的部分好好想一想一個月提出報告謝謝謝謝陳委員接下來我們請徐巧興委員發言"},{"start":33286.331,"end":33293.056,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個兩位都一起好了謝謝看你們這麼辛苦了一整天了"},{"start":33294.915,"end":33295.276,"text":"通貨膨脹嚴重?"},{"start":33322.473,"end":33345.075,"text":"跟委員報我想那已經是幾年前那時候的物價相對來講是平穩我那時候沒有猜我猜啦應該是這要問主委總署不要知道說他們能不能移車那麼遠我了解所以呢我們當時看到就是我們現在回頭過來看因為我們在這個年金改革相關的辦法裡面我們有一個每五年檢討一次的制度對吧"},{"start":33346.115,"end":33350.218,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":33365.047,"end":33365.608,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33382.039,"end":33402.166,"text":"但是我們可以看到其實現在的這個通貨膨脹還有物價的調漲其實速度非常的快那再加上我們這做了年金改革之後等同於說我們的退休公務人員他們就不能說被撥了兩次皮但他們等於說實質上面他們的退休金能夠使用出去的那又變得更少了"},{"start":33402.586,"end":33416.93,"text":"所以我們就希望說那現在既然也過了四年了那我們就希望做一個檢討這是第一件事情第二件事情就是剛剛您也提到了在CPI我們就講說呢要超過5%的時候呢那我們跟著調升那我想要請教說有沒有可能我們在版本當中因為現在要討論修法嘛那我們改成CPI3%的時候呢我們就來做調整我跟委員報告說這個幾%要調整是立法政策"},{"start":33431.954,"end":33432.655,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":33452.515,"end":33469.014,"text":"所以就是說因為那如果真的要講說都一起的話那老保年金也沒改革啊那我講委員跟你報告就是說5%其實沒有達到但是我們每四年也一定會做檢討是所以說現在是到一個檢討的時段所以大家才會在這個時候提出法律的修正案嘛"},{"start":33469.554,"end":33490.942,"text":"所以我就在想說呢那我們是不是有可能因為看到現在尤其我們看到現在川普上任之後未來喔可見的未來我們的通貨膨脹還有呢各式各樣的這個物價上漲是不是台灣而已是全球都有可能發生的那是不是我們在這個時候針對公務人員他的這個CPI的調漲那可以把這個幅度下降到3%"},{"start":33492.062,"end":33493.823,"text":"草案案件事務委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第16條條文修正草案案件事務委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第16條條文修正草案案件事務委員"},{"start":33517.443,"end":33517.723,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":33537.834,"end":33556.701,"text":"最後大家很會問的問題就是說是不是會有惠普基金虧空導致於大家領不到的問題但是我們的勞動部長在大家關注勞保基金的時候前勞動部長他說這個不是只有砍年金才是改革的迷思他說撥補"},{"start":33559.402,"end":33574.841,"text":"建權這個勞保財務這就是政府的決心他認為撥補經費也是一種改革那我想請問那為什麼勞保會用撥補的作為改革但我們的退休軍公教人員不能以撥補作為改革呢"},{"start":33575.469,"end":33588.494,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":33604.801,"end":33609.785,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":33629.332,"end":33637.855,"text":"委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":33658.089,"end":33659.17,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33685.953,"end":33686.093,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":33706.857,"end":33717.725,"text":"所得替代率七成高於五萬一,現職人員大概有民間六萬五的八成。這些講講講講講到說最後你說民間啊"},{"start":33721.687,"end":33726.05,"text":"平均勞退保合計三萬七千五"},{"start":33752.452,"end":33763.138,"text":"第一個數字你說這個勞保的部分退休金請領人數今年7月182000人請領總金額請領353億平均每個人19000你是這個數字這個數字是沒錯問題是你後續勞退的部分你完全搞錯"},{"start":33781.04,"end":33788.983,"text":"勞退請領690件總金額1,251萬平均每人領取18,141元部長你搞清楚欸18,141元是三個月份欸勞退是三個月份請領一次欸你有沒有搞錯這麼明顯的錯誤"},{"start":33809.824,"end":33835.517,"text":"你回去把這個數字搞清楚也就是說勞退就算有勞退的喔就算有得領勞退的三個月一次一萬八千元等於才六千元欸一個月你把勞工退休等於額外把它多出來一萬兩千元沒有那麼多欸"},{"start":33838.184,"end":33852.007,"text":"勞保加勞退最高領到的就是兩萬五然後七十五歲以上的老人家因為我們勞退是從民國九十二年才開始你非常清楚的啊他們根本沒有勞退你回去問你的長輩就知道那你為什麼要把勞保形容成說哦有三萬七千五有這麼高胡說八道"},{"start":33867.517,"end":33870.779,"text":"這個數字別人搞錯沒關係你不能搞錯你直施全國公務員的權序拜託你數字應該很精通不是嗎?勞退有得領的已經很少了因為過去平均我們中小企業存活年限是7年"},{"start":33896.192,"end":33899.253,"text":"國際勞退又可以領是必須終生唯一一家公司唯一一個老闆絕大多數的勞工們沒有勞退金可以領你知道嗎更何況領是三個月一次"},{"start":33914.312,"end":33940.49,"text":"你回去問清楚問清楚你的手下你再來寫這一份報告可不可以差一萬二差多少欸你讓全國勞工人家他沒領那麼多的實質領的他覺得跟退休公務人員相對剝奪感那麼高而你美化了這個數字不是嗎"},{"start":33942.102,"end":33962.884,"text":"所以我覺得這個報告不及格啦!威龍部長啦!委員我想您的指教我虛心接受那我在報告裡面引用的確實沒有去查引用媒體來引述勞保局的一個資料所以如果這個數字您講的是正確的話我非常道歉這個數字"},{"start":33964.11,"end":33964.691,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":33984.861,"end":33986.161,"text":"請相關機關請書送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":34010.461,"end":34021.28,"text":"委員林德福、謝龍介、柯智恩徒全及審法會張智倫、傅坤祺所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆。"},{"start":34026.434,"end":34046.28,"text":"討論事項所列議題報告及詢討完畢決議均另定期繼續審查現在宣讀法案提案條文宣讀時間預計12分鐘條文宣讀完畢後再宣告散會宣讀條文時列席機關代表可先行離席請宣讀"},{"start":34049.092,"end":34071.074,"text":"討論事項第一案公務人員退休資遣撫卹法委員張智倫等提案第三條除徵定第三項為前項人員不包含八十四年前已退休人員其退休資遣或撫卹之辦理從其原法令其餘未修正委員張智倫等提案第八條除第三項莫具後徵定"},{"start":34071.574,"end":34092.267,"text":"其不足部分除一本法第四十條規定各級政府每年所節省之退撫經費支出因全數挹注退撫基金外中央政府應逐年編列預算挹注其預算金額不得低於各級政府每年所節省之退撫經費支出這二倍其餘未修正國民黨黨團提案第37條"},{"start":34094.108,"end":34111.927,"text":"除第五項莫具聚首不再二字三除令增訂第六項為本條附表三有關自中華民國113年1月1日之後逐年下降所得替代率這部分不適用之。委員賴士寶等及委員張智倫等提案第37條均同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":34115.037,"end":34140.88,"text":"委員張嘉峻等提案第三十七條除第五項默拒拒守不在二字三除以外其餘未修正令修正付表三如後付。委員徐新穎等提案第三十七條除第三項增訂後段為中華民國一百十四年後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低依中華民國某年某月某日修正後之付表三認定。"},{"start":34143.035,"end":34172.004,"text":"第五項墨具聚首的不在二字三除外其餘未修正令修正副表三如後付。委員邱振軍等提案第三十七條除第五項墨具聚首不在二字三除外令增訂第六項條文為自中華民國一百十三年一月一日之後本條副表三有關逐年下降所得替代率不適用之其餘未修正委員陳昌明等提案第三十七條對照國民黨黨團提案除第六項"},{"start":34173.084,"end":34192.685,"text":"手具修正為本條附表三有關中華民國一百十三年一月一日後習餘同國民黨黨團提案委員徐宇臻等提案第三十七條同國民黨黨團提案委員張智倫等提案第三十七條除第五項後段修正為經審定後"},{"start":34195.563,"end":34211.189,"text":"於中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累積成長率達正負百分之五十及依該成長率調整之令增訂第六項為本條文附表三有關於所得替代率逐年下降之規定"},{"start":34212.25,"end":34239.785,"text":"自一百十三年一月一日起終止適用其餘未修正為馬文軍等提案第三十七條除增訂第六項及第七項條文為退除一官兵轉任公職者其原服軍職之年資應合併計入第二項退休年資本法公佈施行前退休生教者公務員得依前項規定重新計算其餘未修正"},{"start":34241.055,"end":34260.082,"text":"委員王洪威等提案第三十七條除增定第六項為退出一官兵轉任公職者其原服軍職之年資應合併計入第二項退休年資其餘未修正委員黃建斌等提案第三十七條對照國民黨黨團提案除第六項"},{"start":34261.86,"end":34280.598,"text":"手具末的之後二次修正為其自外其餘未修正。」委員陳韻貞等提案第三十七條除增訂第四項為警察、消防及海巡人員之每月退休所得其替代率依本條例之規定辦理其夫年司滿15年者替代率為45%"},{"start":34283.402,"end":34306.51,"text":"其後每增加一年替代率增給2%,最高採記40年並以90%為上限,原第四項及第五項條文第1為第五項及第六項,並將第五項首具聚首前三項修正為前四項,第六項第二具應按本法公布施行時後面增訂限職同等級人員"},{"start":34308.894,"end":34327.17,"text":"令第三具具首的一前四項修正為一前五項莫具具首的不在二字修正為併字令增定第七項及第八項為退出一官兵轉任公職者其原服均職之年資因合併計入第二項退休年資"},{"start":34328.462,"end":34354.395,"text":"本法公佈施行前退休生肖者公務員得依前項規定重新計算其餘未修正委員盧志強等提案第三十七條除增訂第三項為經全序部認定為為勞職務之空勤總隊移民署勤務人員低項替代率因依退休人員審定之退休年資任職滿15年者替代率為45%其後每增加年一年"},{"start":34355.697,"end":34363.411,"text":"代替率增給2%,最高增至40年為90%,未滿一年之期零年資按比率計算。"},{"start":34364.915,"end":34393.138,"text":"未滿一個月者以一個月計原第三項至第五項條文第以為第四項至第六項並將第四項首具聚首的前項修正為第一項第五項首具聚首的前三項修正為前四項第六項第三具聚首的一前四項修正為一前五項後段修正為經審定後另一中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五十"},{"start":34394.9,"end":34406.508,"text":"隨載職同等級人員本年供奉之條整重新計算其餘未修正文賴士葆等提案第38條除第五項墨具聚首的不在二字三除"},{"start":34408.24,"end":34436.267,"text":"令增定第六項為本條附表三有關自中華民國113年1月1日之後逐年下降所得替代率之部分不適用之其餘未修正。文徐新穎等提案第38條除第三項增定後段文字為中華民國114年後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低依中華民國某年某月某日修正之後附表三認定第五項莫具拒守之不在二字三除外其餘未修正。"},{"start":34437.403,"end":34460.695,"text":"委員王厚威等提案第38條除增定第六項為依內政部移民署組織法規執行入出國境管理、移民事務及防制人口販運任務之人員及依內政部空中勤務總隊組織法規執行空中任務之人員替代率不受第一項限制。照附表三之一所定替代率計算"},{"start":34461.395,"end":34477.998,"text":"其服務年資滿15年者替代率為45%其後每增加一年替代率增給2%最高採計40年並以90%為上限其餘未修正令增訂付表三之一如後付委員賴士寶等提案第67條"},{"start":34480.615,"end":34503.973,"text":"除第一項第三具條文中正負百分之五修正為正百分之三負百分之五倒數第三具中每四年修正為每二年其餘未修正聞徐欣穎等提案第67條除第一項第三具條文中消費者物價指數錢增訂高齡家庭等文字"},{"start":34505.154,"end":34531.491,"text":"令正負百分之五修正為正負百分之二其餘未修正。委員零四明等提案第六十七條除第一項從第四具開始修正為即因依該成長率予以調整其調整比率由考試院會同行政院考量國家經濟環境政府財政與退府基金準備率定之其餘未修正。委員徐宇貞等提案"},{"start":34532.432,"end":34561.87,"text":"第六十七條除第一項第三具條文中正負百分之五修正為正百分之二負百分之五令倒數第三具條文中每四年修正為每二年其餘未修正為黃建豪等提案第六十七條除第一項第四具開始修正為因於發布日起三個月內予以調整其調整比率由考試院會同行政院制定公式定之或隨軍公教加薪比例調整"},{"start":34562.33,"end":34589.001,"text":"其相關執行規定與本法施行細則定之。其餘未修正。委員傅坤祺等提案第六十七條除定向第三具條文中正負百分之五修正為正負百分之二。第四具開始修正為及依該成長率調整之。其相關執行規定與本法施行細則定之。其餘未修正。委員王煌威等提案第六十七條"},{"start":34590.475,"end":34616.775,"text":"除第一項第四具應與調整修正為應依成長率予以調整外其餘未修正第二案公務人員任用法委員翁小林等提案第28條之一除第一項首具中公務人員應遇因後面增令遇孫等文字外其餘未修正委員李燕秀等提案第36條之一除第一項第一款第二目修正為"},{"start":34617.595,"end":34645.262,"text":"二（未具所需官等職等任用資格者一（於派用條例廢止之日起九年內得適用原派用條例及其施行細則繼續派用二（派用條例廢止滿九年之一日起得留任於派用條例廢止滿九年之日之任職機關及所屬機關內適用原派任條例及其施行細則繼續派用其餘未修正宣讀完畢"},{"start":34650.85,"end":34659.378,"text":"討論事項所列議案條文已經宣讀完畢本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"157863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2163b6355e4d492655d143e698449c70dc629e018aee3adde22100f0c7800c801b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:46:41 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中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算。二、審查財團法人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案"},{"start":2022.885,"end":2042.318,"text":"三、審查財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進會114年度預算書案決議討論事項所列之預算審查相關提案請於113年12月13日中午12時前送至立法院內政委員會以立後續審查事宜。宣讀完畢好,請問各位同仁,上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?好,無錯誤,議事錄確定繼續進行討論事項,請宣讀"},{"start":2049.995,"end":2064.254,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算。二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法修正草案，計六案，以審查委員楊曜等17人擬具公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2065.001,"end":2091.469,"text":"審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具《公職人員選舉罷免法》第六十九條條文修正草案。三、審查委員翁曉琳等16人擬具《公職人員選舉罷免法》第五十三條條文修正草案。四、審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具《公職人員選舉罷免法》第五十二條條文修正草案。五、審查委員徐宇珍等39人擬具《公職人員選舉罷免法》第七十五條及第九十條條文修正草案。六、審查臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具《公職人員選舉罷免法》第三十二條"},{"start":2102.254,"end":2108.757,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項,何必詢答?首先介紹在場委員及列席官員。"},{"start":2120.082,"end":2146.393,"text":"來的都介紹來的都介紹我們從左邊開始張志倫委員高金素美委員徐以貞委員牛許廷委員黃建斌委員林思明書記長林建祺委員邱振軍委員黃仁委員"},{"start":2148.656,"end":2161.961,"text":"葉元之委員、邱若驊委員、廖先祥委員、張宏祿召委、徐巧欣委員、游皓委員、鄭振前委員、蔡奕瑜委員。"},{"start":2180.508,"end":2199.243,"text":"林佩祥委員黃潔委員王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員李博義委員吳祁銘委員林黛嬅委員邱奕穎委員"},{"start":2211.021,"end":2237.227,"text":"列席官員中選會主委李敬勇主委內政部部長劉世芳部長司法院民事廳法官張宇嘉法官法務部參事廖江縣參事行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員李易柔、李專委"},{"start":2240.523,"end":2250.447,"text":"好,請提案委員說明提案要旨。好,我們請徐宇貞委員提案說明。沒有太燙。"},{"start":2275.452,"end":2297.139,"text":"謝謝主席針對本席所提出的這個選罷法的這個修正案的提案說明那我想其實有鑒於現行的公職人員的罷免案的連署成立僅需要原選舉人數的總數的10%依照成罷免的腐爛需要社會的資源而且罷免的過程中會造成社會的對立公民的對立也會影響社會的安定"},{"start":2304.853,"end":2330.333,"text":"甚至在罷免的過程中也有可能發生同意罷免票數低於當選票數的一個狀況那也形成少數的民意會否決多數民意的不合理現象而且選罷法裡面有規定就職未滿一年不得為罷免的規定但是對於罷免提議跟後續的一個連署卻沒有禁止所以導致選舉結果出爐後即能啟動這個"},{"start":2334.156,"end":2362.65,"text":"大免的不合理的現象也讓一年內不得罷免的利益立法的原意盡失一可能助長報復性罷免的惡性循環所以為了維護人民的罷免權以及兼顧公平性跟社會安定並給予當選人適當的保障所以我提出公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條跟第九十條的條文修正草案那也希望說藉由這樣子的一個修正不要有"},{"start":2363.37,"end":2364.791,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":2387.742,"end":2388.403,"text":"二、審查委員李竹樂委員禁用報告。請法案與預算案一併報告。"},{"start":2417.017,"end":2434.047,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早安今天大院審查本會以及所屬114年度的單位預算非常榮幸能夠應邀來列席萬分的感謝各位委員對於本會各項業務的支持以下僅就本會所屬"},{"start":2435.268,"end":2451.896,"text":"一百一十三年度已過期間的施政績效以及預算執行的情形。一百一十四年度施政計畫重點以及預期的績效。還有一百一十四年度預算編列的情形來提出報告。敬請各位委員能夠會與指教。"},{"start":2452.896,"end":2464.667,"text":"首先,包括113年度已過期間施政績效以及預算執行的情形。第一,順利完成第16任總統及副總統以及11屆的立法委員選舉。第二,"},{"start":2468.05,"end":2482.645,"text":"辦理選務宣導工作：包括多元及數位媒體的宣導：落實在地的宣導：加強對新住民、原住民以及身心障礙者的宣導。第三、辦理三場總統候選人電視政見發表會：一、一場副總統候選人政見發表會："},{"start":2489.512,"end":2505.064,"text":"二、審查兩場原住民立法委員選舉候選人電視證件發表會﹑一場全國不分區及僑居國外國民立法委員選舉政黨電視證件發表會﹑七十六場的區域立法委員選舉候選人電視證件發表會以及五場辯論會。"},{"start":2509.912,"end":2517.815,"text":"第四、辦理基隆市第19屆市長謝國良的罷免案。第五、辦理臺中市議會第4屆議員第15選舉區、宜蘭縣議會第20屆議員第4選舉區缺額補選以及新竹縣議會第20屆議員第7選舉區、臺東縣議會第20屆議員第16選舉區的缺額補選。第六、積極參與國際"},{"start":2538.803,"end":2558.349,"text":"選舉組織AWEB以及AAEA的活動。第七、全國性公民投票電子聯署系統的上線。第八、辦理選務幹部人員講習六期。調訊人員總共有235人。第九、修正公職人員選舉公辦證件發表會實施的辦法。"},{"start":2561.98,"end":2571.605,"text":"其次報告113年度截至10月底至預算執行的情形。在稅務的部分,113年度稅務預算是5850萬4千元,到10月底為止累計分配數是4969萬5千元,累計實收數是7298萬元,"},{"start":2589.535,"end":2595.381,"text":"應收數46萬5千元合計7344萬5千元超收金額2375萬元主要因為沒入得票數不足候選人保證金收入"},{"start":2607.131,"end":2616.117,"text":"其次在稅出的部分113年度稅出的預算數是18億6126萬1千元到10月底子累計的分配數有18億1174萬5千元累計致用數含預付款15億7638萬3千元執行率達到87.01%"},{"start":2634.102,"end":2661.109,"text":"114年度施政計畫重點以及預期的績效。第一點,電腦計票系統納入ISO27001的驗證,研擬資訊安全管理政策規範以及標準。第二,規劃辦理選務幹部人員講習。第三,積極參與國際選舉組織會議跟活動。第四,按計比對公職候選人基本資料以及法務部確定判決的資料。"},{"start":2663.011,"end":2665.753,"text":"徹底執行公職人員選舉罷免法第112條的政黨連坐裁罰案件。"},{"start":2670.734,"end":2698.26,"text":"其次包括114年度預算編列的情形在稅入的部分114年度稅入預算編列111萬1千元稅出的部分114年度稅出預算編列4億8千6百6萬3千元較上年度預算數少減少13億7千459萬8千元主要是減列第16任總統副總統以及第11屆立法委員選舉的"},{"start":2700.361,"end":2713.239,"text":"經費預算內容如下,在一般行政部分編列1億368萬1千元,較上年度增加531萬8千元,主要是深算增略調整待遇等經費。"},{"start":2715.071,"end":2741.945,"text":"在選舉業務的部分編列三千零一十四萬一千元,較上年度減少十三億七千八百四十三萬一千元,主要是減列第十六任總統副總統以及第十一屆立法委員選舉的經費。第三,地方選舉委員會行政業務編列三億五千一百六十九萬一千元,較上年度增加一千零五十七萬七千元,主要是升列增列"},{"start":2743.105,"end":2761.517,"text":"審算增略調整待遇等經費。第四、一般建築及設備編列15萬元較上年度減少1206萬2千元,主要是簡略參建臺北市廣池博愛園區的信義行政中心辦公廳設工程物價調整等經費。"},{"start":2765.62,"end":2794.446,"text":"第一預備金的部分編列一百萬元人照上年度的預算書編列。結語本會以及所屬114年度預算編配合行政院訂定之籌編原則秉持臨機預算精神通盤檢討編列並在有限的資源內妥適的安排各項施政。敬請各位委員支持及指教。謝謝那這部分是有關於預算報告的部分。緊接著報告"},{"start":2796.121,"end":2806.325,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法修正草案審查報告公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條規定"},{"start":2818.67,"end":2836.119,"text":"以選舉結果攸關選舉人、候選人的權利,候選人是否或者是選擇什麼樣的權利救濟程序,允於尊重候選人的決定。而且候選人得票數相同時,修正規定均應由"},{"start":2838.781,"end":2858.954,"text":"舉機關向管轄的法院申請重新計票,恐有增加司法資源以及各級政府經費予以負擔之餘,也將延宕了同法第38條第1項第6款,規定選舉委員會應於投票日後7日內公告當選人名單不利於選舉結果的及早確定。"},{"start":2861.388,"end":2871.185,"text":"有關於候選人的申請重新計票之得票數差距修正為有效票千份之十公職人員選舉罷免法第69條的部分"},{"start":2875.222,"end":2901.516,"text":"審查現行公職人員選舉罷免法第69條第一項有關區域立法委員直轄市縣市長選舉的結果得票數最高跟次高候選人得票數差距或原住民立法委員選舉結果得票數第三高與第四高的候選人得票差距在有效票數千分之三以內時次高票或得票第四高的候選人得於"},{"start":2902.577,"end":2921.028,"text":"投票日後7日內申請重新計票的規定是按照黨團協商的條文通過並且在96年11月7日修正公佈候選人對於選舉結果認為有選舉無效或當選無效的原因事實時可以分別依公職人員選舉罷免法第118條以及120條的規定向管轄法院提起選舉訴訟"},{"start":2928.012,"end":2954.098,"text":"候選人得票數如果有符合同法第69條所定的重新計票規定時也可以向管轄法院申請查封選舉人名冊以及選舉票由法官來辦理重新驗票所以選舉結果攸關候選人的權利候選人是否或者是選擇何種權利救濟程序我們認為應該要尊重候選人的決定"},{"start":2954.818,"end":2978.589,"text":"至於將候選人得申請重新計票的得票數差距由有效票的千份之三修正為千份之十將會導致重新計票案件數量會大幅增加造成司法及行政資源及各級政府經費負擔及社會成本過高的情況。"},{"start":2981.284,"end":2997.744,"text":"有關於縮短禁止發布民調的時間由現行投票日前10天改為投票日前3天公職人員選舉罷免法第53條的部分為了確保選舉的公平跟公正避免投票日前10日內"},{"start":2998.405,"end":3027.534,"text":"因為民意調查資料的發布等行為左右或主導選民選舉的意向並且動搖選民的信念不論該等資料是否屬實或者是客觀在投票日前10天發布等行為選民沒有足夠的時間可以來做分辨其他候選人也沒有充分的時間可以來加以釐清如果放任及散佈等行為可能會影響到選舉的公正性"},{"start":3028.394,"end":3054.172,"text":"此為公職人員選舉罷免法第53條第三項規定的立法的目的,如果將10天修改為3天,是否能可以維繫原立法目的,以審慎的考量。再其次是有關於禁止非政黨推薦候選人未經政黨授權在宣傳品上使用政黨負責人的頭像、政黨負責人姓名與政黨標籤,"},{"start":3056.803,"end":3083.837,"text":"這個牽涉到公職人員選舉罷免法第52條的部分按政黨是否推薦某位候選人或者是否願意授權非該政黨推薦的候選人使用其政黨負責人的頭像、政黨負責人姓名與政黨的標章等等應該是屬於政黨跟各該候選人之間自主的事項且多涉及選戰勝選以及政治結盟的考量"},{"start":3084.778,"end":3107.889,"text":"至於如果有肖像權相關的增值也有民法相關的規定的規範是否採行現行的規定的措施允於考量。再提示是有關於公職人員就職未滿一年不得為罷免之提議與連署公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條的部分"},{"start":3109.025,"end":3134.744,"text":"以現行公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條規定公職人員的罷免由原選舉區選舉人向選舉委員會提出罷免案但是就職未滿一年者不可以罷免所以有關公職人員選舉罷免案的提議提議人之領銜人在公職人員就職滿一年後才可以向選舉委員會提出罷免案"},{"start":3135.945,"end":3158.677,"text":"草案規定公職人員就職未滿一年者,原選舉區選舉人不得為罷免之提議,以罷免案尚未向選舉委員會提出前選舉人是否進行提議,選舉委員會無從知悉,也沒有辦法查核該罷免案是否是在公職人員就職未滿一點前就已經進行連署。"},{"start":3160.598,"end":3185.342,"text":"所以在實務上執行的確有自愛之處且在公職人員就職滿一年後使得進行罷免案的提議即為延後罷免案得提出的時間需並同審酌至於有關於公職人員罷免案的連署必須在罷免案提出提議經合於規定之後"},{"start":3185.882,"end":3203.394,"text":"提議人的領銜人才可以領取聯署人的名冊格式,並依聯署人名冊格式來徵求聯署。所以,罷免案若在公職人員就職滿一年後時提出,尚務須再規定公職人員就職未滿一年者,原選舉期選舉人不得為罷免聯署之規定。"},{"start":3206.86,"end":3231.63,"text":"再其次是罷免案投票通過需有效同意票超過被罷免人當選得票數公職人員選舉罷免法第九十條的部分。查現行公職人員選舉罷免法第九十條規定罷免案投票的結果有效同意票數多於不同意票數且同意票數達原選舉區選舉人總數的四分之一以上即為通過"},{"start":3232.91,"end":3262.273,"text":"有關增列同意票數上期超過被罷免人當選時得票數一截以各該公職人員選舉因為選舉制度也就是單一選區或者是複數選區各選舉區的應選名額選舉人的人數各選舉區的規模等等都不相同當然就會影響到當選票數的高低而且各被罷免人當選得票數各有不同"},{"start":3264.078,"end":3286.591,"text":"將至各被罷免人罷免案投票通過的門檻不同又被罷免人當選時的投票率跟罷免人的投票率並不相同規定同意票數上去超過被罷免人當選時的得票數是否允當仍有待社會各界凝聚共識。再其實是有關增列候當選人未依法完成就職"},{"start":3288.653,"end":3305.012,"text":"選舉委員會應通知其繳回已領取的保證金公職人員選舉罷免法第32條的部分當選人沒有依照法律的規定完成就職之態樣是多元的當選人如果是因為死亡、重病"},{"start":3306.053,"end":3320.021,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3326.164,"end":3332.329,"text":"審查委員會及所屬單位預算案關於中央政委委員會及所屬單位預算案。三、審查委員會及所屬單位預算案關於中央政委委員會及所屬單位預算案。四、審查委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":3347.037,"end":3363.328,"text":"為依法完成就職選舉委員會應通知其繳回已領取之補貼金額公職人員選舉罷免法第43條規定的部分當選人為依法完成就職之太陽多元"},{"start":3363.988,"end":3389.822,"text":"如當選人是因死亡、重病、羈押或服刑等事由而無法就職,是否亦屬於知意參選而追繳其競選費用之補貼金額,上職審酌至同項但書,雖然也有規定不可規則於當事人之事由至無法就職並不予追繳競選經費的補貼之出外的情形,但是候選人競選經費"},{"start":3392.607,"end":3409.674,"text":"補貼的規定涉及候選人得否領取競選費用之補貼,所稱不可歸則於當事人之事由,就所何止定義未明,在執行上也會發生困難。以上是就修正個案的這個報告,敬請各位委員指教,謝謝。好,接著請內政部劉部長釋方報告。"},{"start":3425.101,"end":3443.023,"text":"昭偉主席各位委員女士先生大家早今天就內政委員會開會審查大院委員包括楊耀、莊瑞雄等17人蘇清泉、徐欣盈、徐宇珍等23人翁曉琳等16人陳冠廷等25人徐宇珍、徐欣盈"},{"start":3444.104,"end":3468.295,"text":"蘇清泉等39人以及臺灣民眾黨黨團所提的《公職人員選舉罷免法》以下簡稱選舉罷免法的部分條文修正草案共計六個案。內政部應邀列席報告深感榮幸,僅將本部的意見說明如下,敬請各位委員參考。第一個,就是針對票數相同者先行重新計票,待結果仍相同時時與抽籤決定。"},{"start":3471.156,"end":3499.349,"text":"卻較為公平合理,為需考量當選人名單公告的實效。有關楊曜委員等人提案修正選罷法第六十七條,增列候選人選舉票數相同的時候需先重新計票。重新計票結果仍為票數相同時,時以抽籤決定當選人一節。針對候選人選舉得票相同的處理如能先行重新計票,是結果仍相同時時以抽籤決定,卻更符合公平合理原則。"},{"start":3500.129,"end":3519.828,"text":"但是在重新計票需要再耗費相當的作業時間當選人名單是將延後公告、試射選務執行的部分那內政部會尊重中選會在選務方面的意見第二有關放寬申請重新計票的門檻孔使申請重新計票案數增加應該審慎考量"},{"start":3521.85,"end":3547.956,"text":"有關蘇清泉委員等人提案修正選報法第69條德項管轄法院申請重新計票的標準由得票數差距在有效票千分之三以內放寬為千分之十以節依照憲法法庭在112年憲判自第18號判決意旨現行系包含區域與原住民立法委員直轄市長及"},{"start":3549.376,"end":3569.005,"text":"縣市長選舉以外的公職人員選舉得票數最高之落選人與其得票數與當選最低得票數差距在有效票千分之三以內的時候均得依法向管轄法院申請重新計票已經增加法院及選務機關的工作負荷考量地方層級選舉競爭激烈"},{"start":3570.706,"end":3579.45,"text":"候選人間得票數差距甚為如果依照提案將申請門檻放寬為落選人得票數差距為千分之十以內者會再增加該等選舉重新計票案量增加法院跟選務機關執行量能是否足堪負荷也需要併同來考量那內政部會尊重司法院及中選會的意見。第三有關縮短選前民調發布的禁制期"},{"start":3599.799,"end":3613.145,"text":"懇使候選人在投票日前難以有效澄清所謂的虛假資訊並且有助長不實民調發布的嫌疑。有關翁曉琳委員等人提案修正選報法第53條將禁止發布民意調查時間從選前十日縮短為選前三日以節。查前開選舉民調發布的禁制規定"},{"start":3621.548,"end":3650.164,"text":"是為了避免不實民意調查資料誤導選民候選人未能有效澄清修正或為維持自由的投票環境避免任何民意調查影響選民判斷所以規定在投票日前十日禁止公布民意調查如果修法縮短民意調查的限制時間為投票前三日會使候選人在投票日前對於不實資訊無法有效澄清此外是否反助長發布不實民調"},{"start":3652.186,"end":3668.801,"text":"都待商榷。第四、候選人冒用未經各該政黨授權的政黨負責人頭像等資訊在《公職選罷法》已經有刑事處罰可以處理,增列行政法的必要性有待斟酌。有關陳冠廷委員等人提案《公職選罷法》52條增訂非政黨推薦候選人"},{"start":3672.825,"end":3690.16,"text":"衛經政黨授權,不得在宣傳品上使用政黨負責人頭像、姓名與政黨標章以截,考量政黨是否授權個別候選人及授權關係是否存續,因屬政黨跟各該候選人間的自主事項,又依照選罷法第104條規定,意圖使候選人當選或不當選以文字、圖畫、"},{"start":3695.465,"end":3721.132,"text":"錄音錄影等方法散佈謠言或者是傳播不實之事足以生損害於公眾或他人者是處五年以下有期徒刑所以如果有候選人冒用不實政黨推薦資訊以影響選舉投票結果應該有上開的規定可以適用是否有必要修法增列行政法因為涉及選務機關的裁罰作業有沒有執行障礙我們也是尊重中選會的意見"},{"start":3722.492,"end":3746.854,"text":"第五是有關調高公職人員罷免通過門檻的部分,建議社會各界要凝聚共識,再行研議。有關徐委員余珍等人提案,修正公職選罷法75條明定公職人員就職未滿一年者不得為罷免之提議於連署已結。現行公職選罷法第75條第一項但書已經明定就職未滿一年者不得罷免。"},{"start":3747.475,"end":3760.81,"text":"所以公職人員罷免案的提議自須待公職人員就職滿一年使得向選委會提出,又依照公職選舉法第79條第二項規定,罷免案的連署系屬選舉委員會含告該罷免案提議人數符合規定後使得為之。"},{"start":3767.398,"end":3784.619,"text":"公職人員就職未滿一年不得對其罷免聯署徵求的限制其必要性有待斟酌。又需委員提案有關《選舉法》第九十條針對罷免案通過的門檻,增列同意票數要超過被罷免人當選票數以節。"},{"start":3786.821,"end":3806.898,"text":"考量民意系隨不同時空環境變動,罷免投票時選民同意、反對或中立不投票均為對罷免案通過與否的表態,又現行公職人員選舉大多為多種類之選舉合併於同日舉行投票,與罷免投票是單獨舉行投票情形不同,因此被罷免人當選時的選舉投票率與罷免案"},{"start":3810.421,"end":3819.345,"text":"投票率並不相同規定同意票數上虛超過被罷免人當選時得票的合理性有待商榷在貴委員會113年7月3號所召開的公聽會裡面與會人員對於罷免通過門檻應否修正也各持有不同的意見也就是說沒有共識所以是否調高罷免通過的門檻建議待各界凝聚共識後再行處理。第六針對未就職的當選者"},{"start":3839.754,"end":3860.911,"text":"除以扣繳選舉保證金及競選補助款其處理明確性及合理性可以再斟酌有關民眾黨黨團提案修正選罷法第32條跟43條明定當選人為依法完成就職者如無不可規則因素所繳納之保證金不予退還以及不予補貼競選"},{"start":3862.512,"end":3885.474,"text":"貸用已結。因當選人無法就職的情形包含死亡、硬案羈押或服刑、經判決當選無效確定、徵集入營服役以及個人健康或其他因素放棄就職等情勢,並非全可歸則於當事人。如果要對不就職者扣繳其選舉保證金涉及當選人權利之限制,"},{"start":3886.095,"end":3915.185,"text":"允應明確列明何種情形,使與處罰,以渡爭議。用選舉補助款,也是用以補助候選人競選活動之用,並且以候選人所獲票數作為計算標準,為我國公費選舉措施之一,並與當選後之行為無涉。如針對當選人無法就職者及不予補貼競選經費,恐與上開補助制度目的不符合。以上六案報告,敬請各位委員指教。感謝。"},{"start":3919.95,"end":3933.596,"text":"其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員諮詢前原力做幾點宣告第一本會委員發言時間4分鐘必要時延長1分鐘非本會委員發言時間4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":3950.276,"end":3970.84,"text":"這是參酌上個會期也是我們內政委員會那時候打詐專法吳釗偉的時候就是這樣因為今天登記人數眾多我們也希望讓大家可以暢所欲言這個是按照我們第11屆內政委員會第一會期第22次會議就是這樣"},{"start":3985.591,"end":4012.011,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":4025.749,"end":4035.698,"text":"本席參酌大家的意見張昭偉提議本席接受所以再次宣告本會委員發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":4040.639,"end":4045.444,"text":"必要時得延長1分鐘非本會委員發言時間4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":4053.997,"end":4070.863,"text":"二、因為今天預算、詢答及法案處理本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見?好,沒有,OK那我們現在進行詢答"},{"start":4073.262,"end":4101.562,"text":"請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言。請在場的委員注意會議的秩序。"},{"start":4106.299,"end":4111.844,"text":"現在我們已經進入,我們現在已經進行詢答了。剛剛沒有登記,所以我們現在進行詢答。"},{"start":4124.468,"end":4135.263,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":4144.246,"end":4158.471,"text":"好了,請大家注意會議秩序這個是州委安排的權利我們現在接著進行詢答請第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言"},{"start":4167.83,"end":4173.565,"text":"因為尋答的時間是召委安排的,這是召委的基本權利。"},{"start":4202.069,"end":4207.733,"text":"我們現在進行詢答,請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言。蘇巧慧委員發言"},{"start":4236.586,"end":4237.507,"text":"請蘇巧慧委員發言。"},{"start":4257.02,"end":4261.431,"text":"請大家注意會議的繼續。請安靜。我們尊重蘇巧慧委員。"},{"start":4265.219,"end":4270.261,"text":"謝謝主席我們請主委主席我想先說這不是尊重蘇巧慧委員因為蘇巧慧委員數學很好4加2和5加1都一樣是6分鐘所以主席一點都沒有尊重張宏祿委員的意見延長至少本會委員會這個拿出去講你看大家都笑了4加2和5加1你能夠得到不同的答案這個我覺得立法院也可以"},{"start":4294.509,"end":4319.155,"text":"時間請暫停本席回應一下蘇巧慧委員我剛剛說本席剛剛說尊重蘇巧慧委員是說請大家安靜他要質詢了這第一個第二個本席第一次宣告是4加1後來張昭偉提議了本席就說5加1所以是你們在吵鬧中沒聽清楚我也尊重好不好請開始詢答請開始詢答好來來主席我們請李靜兒李主委"},{"start":4331.915,"end":4355.533,"text":"主委我今天還是這個我們要進行的有兩個案子一個是中選會預算的審查那另外才是第二案選罷法的這個討論那老實說剛剛主席這個我們等一下有六十多位的委員在今天都分別登記了"},{"start":4356.934,"end":4362.255,"text":"要來這裡做討論,要來做質詢。那我們在這裡呢,非常非常的期待等一下所有登記的委員都能夠按照議事程序,完整的進行詢答,議事程序不會變化。那,因為今天已經是12月5號了,我們的規定的會期本來是只有到31號,今天才要審預算,其實真的是很晚了吼。"},{"start":4384.54,"end":4388.985,"text":"那我本來呢也準備了很多題目啊比如說這個像中選會的題目裡面我也很想詢問一下中選會啊你們在第四頁裡面說去參加了這個維護選舉公正性以防制選錯假錯訊息國際研討會到底帶回來什麼樣的成果我也想聽中選會報告啦"},{"start":4405.623,"end":4409.885,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4430.173,"end":4434.358,"text":"四加一的時間來進行我對選罷法的想像對我對選罷法的意見五加一五加一的時間寶貴的五加一的時間老實講我們在七月的時候七月的時候不是已經進行過這樣的議程了嗎而且當時都新聞有看載"},{"start":4452.156,"end":4456.199,"text":"其實我今天本來是這個新聞截圖有我們在座北委會委員的這個圖像但我覺得尊重委員會同仁彼此的情誼我們就沒有放出來了這確確實實就是國民黨自己說的有共識在推7月8號國民黨要說爭議很大所以現在暫緩奇怪了今天12月5號今天難道社會有共識嗎有共識的話剛剛不會吵成這樣啦"},{"start":4476.554,"end":4485.316,"text":"那現在是怎麼樣?國民黨要自己打臉自己嗎?這是第一點啦!到底為什麼今天要排捨棄中選會預算審查來排這個選罷法?我希望這是我的臆測啦!大家沒有要放棄預算我們今天就把預算按照議程走完這是第一個本席的主張第二個我們來看看今天所謂要推的選罷法修正是什麼?剛剛已經說了嘛!罷免的門檻到底是什麼?欸主委我想請教你"},{"start":4506.124,"end":4508.446,"text":"我們對選舉罷免的意義到底是什麼?選舉罷免的意義?憲法賦予人民選舉罷免的意義是什麼?就是選民意見表達嘛意見表達的方式把名譽轉換成結果代議事所以我們可以賦予代議事權利但我們也可以收回嘛也有收回這就是罷免的意義所在沒錯吧?主委是的好"},{"start":4536.025,"end":4545.529,"text":"那麼現在如果我們按照今天這樣子來看的話今天的版本徐委員提出的版本那我們的罷免會是什麼樣的狀況說得很好聽說是罷免的同意票勝過當時選舉的票數來啦我們來看看啦"},{"start":4556.033,"end":4559.316,"text":"我們歷屆的選舉,歷屆的選舉好了,投票率是多少?我們從2008年到現在2022年,每一屆大選的投票率都將近七成啊,都將近七成,這是台灣人民對自己權利的表彰嘛,連2024年也是七成。好,可是罷免案呢?來,我們來看罷免案。"},{"start":4577.171,"end":4581.893,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":4595.387,"end":4606.759,"text":"投票率就是只有五成啊最高的就是陳柏惟的那一次五成的投票率啊所以台灣人民其實很聰明啊剛剛用這種什麼社會安定這樣子來講老實說大部分的人要不是被激到受不了要站出來沒有人要來做罷免案啊"},{"start":4615.569,"end":4643.53,"text":"好!但是你不能因為這樣就剝奪人民的權利啊!所以你今天把罷免的投票數直接拉高到同意當時投票的同意數往上堆疊其實你就只有一句話其實你就是只有一句話你就是要把人民的罷免權收掉就這樣而已數字很清楚所以不用再講什麼其他的你唯一心理想的就是要沒收人民的罷免權主委你同意我的看法嗎?"},{"start":4644.88,"end":4660.874,"text":"關於這個修正案我們認為有兩點是大家必須要深入去討論的第一個就是說有關於公職人員的選舉從選舉的投票到罷免的投票這中間要經過至少一年半以上"},{"start":4661.8,"end":4668.643,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":4691.431,"end":4693.033,"text":"我們來看看這麼多年來從1992年到現在2018年最後丁守中柯文哲這一些事件當中的驗票來來來我們來看一下後面的驗票哪一件有成功過"},{"start":4705.165,"end":4709.666,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4730.313,"end":4732.516,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":4747.092,"end":4760.917,"text":"當然是很大的啊我甚至參與過總統的驗票那曠日廢時所以這麼大的成本那你現在到底要開放到給多少人來進行這個驗票大家如果再說選務成本剛剛我聽到這個版本說一個為了社會安定一個為了選務成本所以今天提議了這些版本本席已經多給你一分半了"},{"start":4770.844,"end":4777.736,"text":"主席,今天這麼嚴肅的案子,大家時間都不夠,所以我相信大家都希望能夠上所欲言。"},{"start":4779.454,"end":4799.347,"text":"所以主委我希望等一下你也能夠好好的表達現在的法律其實是能夠已經最完善保障人民權益和選務秩序以及社會安定這是現行版本我們應該要支持的是現行的版本是希望能夠讓中選會有充分的說明的機會好"},{"start":4803.19,"end":4824.064,"text":"謝謝蘇巧慧委員本席也在這邊說明這週是預算案復委之後本席第二週的排案第一週排案本席已經有排中選會的預算但是當時民進黨委員杯葛我們沒辦法開會那第一週的排案有另外兩天"},{"start":4824.924,"end":4848.838,"text":"一天公聽會也是在更早之前我們這個公投法也是民進黨本會民進黨委員提案要排公聽會而且是設定就是那一週所以我們排了一天公聽會再來另外一個是國土計劃法前面已經排了兩次的會議所以延伸下來在那一週本席排了國土計劃法的審查"},{"start":4850.639,"end":4871.616,"text":"第三天本席可以排案就是排了中選會的預算這週是本席可以排預算案的第二週而已所以我們排了陸委會跟海基會的預算審查今天再度排中選會預算審查"},{"start":4872.637,"end":4874.059,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案"},{"start":4911.04,"end":4916.345,"text":"我請李主委跟劉部長好請李主委劉部長好那個"},{"start":4933.86,"end":4951.635,"text":"主委跟部長我們今天當然是主要的深水區這我想是選罷法我想請教一下李主委就人民的創制複決權等等的你覺得選罷法如果"},{"start":4953.936,"end":4960.56,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":4982.78,"end":5009.306,"text":"選罷免的門檻各國規定的標準當然不同,詳細的資料恐怕我們還必須要再做彙整。我跟您講,全世界如果有這樣,我個人所知道沒有說一定要比當選票數要多一票。這個很奇怪,那為什麼不多5%?那為什麼要怎樣?我覺得這個是大家可以好好的去探討的一個問題。"},{"start":5010.902,"end":5018.734,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":5025.151,"end":5043.926,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人"},{"start":5053.328,"end":5079.021,"text":"我認為有兩點可能大家必須要深入的來思考這樣子的修正是否合理第一個就是我一再的強調在投票的時間到真正罷免要投票的時間中間至少要經過一年半這一年半的時間民意有變化了人事有改變了所以你用"},{"start":5079.841,"end":5106.891,"text":"一年半以前的民意要來否定一年半以後現在的民意這個是不合理的這是第一點那第二點就是選舉的時候跟罷免的時候他的投票率也好他的當選人的當選的席次也好他參選的人數也好這個基礎都不一樣的所以也會影響到得票數的多寡"},{"start":5107.551,"end":5114.935,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":5135.245,"end":5138.248,"text":"選前民調公布日期在世界各國有沒有相同規定?"},{"start":5151.391,"end":5167.718,"text":"我們所瞭解的應該有啦,應該有,詳細的資料我們並沒有做收集跟整理。有啦,台灣在制定這個也是參考國外的啦,對不對。因為為什麼呢?這個叫做選前的寧靜。"},{"start":5170.544,"end":5190.302,"text":"這是要讓選民知道他的訊息到底是真的還假的讓選民能夠去從眾多的訊息裡面去知道哪一個訊息是真的哪一個訊息是假的他才能夠去判斷他如何去準確的投票主委如果我們現在改成前三日"},{"start":5191.363,"end":5204.318,"text":"那在三日前弄一些假訊息假民調你覺得選民有可能在這麼短的時間內去了解這個訊息是真的是假的嗎?不會互相背後啦對啊時間太拼了對齁"},{"start":5208.82,"end":5231.699,"text":"主委,所以我個人是認為啦,國外的規定很多,但我們台灣10天我覺得是比較剛好啦,為什麼?我們兩千多萬人,我們什麼樣的人都有,那我們的訊息管道真的太多了,還有對其他不友好的國家的認知作戰,如果你在選前三天,哇!"},{"start":5232.708,"end":5245.299,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":5260.242,"end":5284.904,"text":"同票數要先驗票,然後再來做。我不知道內政部跟主委你們的看法。同票數,現在是直接抽籤嘛。對。那也有人提到說同票數要先驗票之後再抽籤啦。是,那我們會考量到說要公告這個當選人的名單啦。因為你在重新驗票的時候呢,不是我們所想像當中的那麼的簡單。"},{"start":5286.085,"end":5314.461,"text":"包括村里長也是一樣尤其村里長的差額非常的小那如果全國村里長一致在選舉的期間每個人都重新驗票的話恐怕會影響到地方選委會或是中央選委會要公告當選人名單那因為他後面本來就有其他當選無效的這些訴訟的這些處罰的原則所以我們還是希望能夠維持現狀會比較好部長跟主委再給我三十秒我覺得啦"},{"start":5315.595,"end":5339.678,"text":"你這個東西不能夠縣市長跟縣市議員等同看待我個人認為如果村里長的部分是有點道理的你與其後面的訴訟冗長然後又很多的東西村里長你要重新驗票其實我說真的兩個小時就可以完成了"},{"start":5342.051,"end":5354.103,"text":"我們相信選務人員選務人員他的數值都很高這個出錯的機會很少但這不影響公告的時間而且會同票數的整個選舉結果不會有幾個"},{"start":5357.361,"end":5372.317,"text":"所以我個人覺得這個東西如果你以村里長的角度去看是合理的但是如果以總統以直轄市市長那就不一樣了所以我覺得這一個部分可以去思考"},{"start":5373.078,"end":5388.677,"text":"村里長的部分要不要這樣那其他的我們往後再看你不要齁村里長齁每次的最多抽籤的都是村里長啦或是鄉鎮代表啦阿這個其實選舉人數都不多啦可以很快處理啦你們的看法呢"},{"start":5393.414,"end":5408.202,"text":"這個限制是 現行的制度是先抽籤抽籤完了你不服氣再來驗票限制是這樣子 那修改是說不管你同不同意就是先驗票"},{"start":5409.695,"end":5415.957,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5439.125,"end":5466.192,"text":"主委我剛講的是村里長的部分或代表的部分我認同是要先驗票因為選舉人數不多嘛而且我們的選務人員就在那裡這個很重要這個對村里長來講很重要我跟你講這個很重要我認為真的是可以去改變與其後面的訴訟而且也不影響我們公告的時間我們公告的時間至少七天後"},{"start":5467.216,"end":5480.322,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":5482.563,"end":5505.085,"text":"報告張委員您的說法可以商量但是村里長要先寄票重新寄票然後再公告當選那為什麼縣市議員、立法委員和總統也不按照這樣的決定所以最好是能夠保持一致的規定跟法律上的施行可能會比較公平我覺得這個可以討論我覺得我們好好討論"},{"start":5511.508,"end":5513.35,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5529.278,"end":5534.925,"text":"主委好想要事先請教一下主委我們陸配參政的問題不管是登機參選還是說被政黨推薦一定要符合資格中選會才會列為選舉公告上面正式成為候選人對嗎"},{"start":5549.156,"end":5554.14,"text":"是就參選的資格是由中選會來審查對嘛參選的資格對啊對嘛所以說你才公告嘛是不是對但是已經被中選會正式列為選舉公道上的候選人資格也得到中選會的認證了請問為什麼候選人被公級資格不符的之後中選會不會願意出來澄清呢"},{"start":5577.299,"end":5583.622,"text":"所以說中選會主委做事情都不用負責任嗎?中選會只管到參選的資格所以資格登記後你是負責認證、符合嘛你才公報的嘛,是不是?至於當選之後他的就職相關的規定還有其他法律的規範那就不是中選會管的"},{"start":5603.953,"end":5607.135,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2"},{"start":5631.707,"end":5635.47,"text":"副總統候選人吳欣儀女士也被攻擊雙重國籍的時候中協會也是說擺爛裝死然後事件發生台灣事實證明這個網站澄清後依據兩岸人民關係條例陸配必須取得身份證後還要在台灣涉及滿十年才能登記成為公職候選人擁有公職的資格對嗎"},{"start":5661.151,"end":5676.506,"text":"第一點在總統選舉的時候有關於吳欣盈候選人的國籍的部分中選會沒有擺爛沒有裝死而且是發函請外交部幫我們所以因為我們是台灣事實查核中心網站公佈我們很認真很詳細的來審查他的資格他的參選的資格是沒有問題的"},{"start":5686.195,"end":5688.778,"text":"剛才我問的問題所以說是不是說我們陸配要在台灣設籍滿10年才能登記嘛 對不對是啊所以呢反而來說就是他們是只要在台灣有設戶籍10年以上他就符合資格嘛"},{"start":5706.294,"end":5711.918,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條公職"},{"start":5722.364,"end":5726.607,"text":"但是我們外配就用任外的法例所以只要在台灣有戶籍十年以上就符合資格如果你覺得說陸配還是那個外配拿身分證辦理是一致的話所以如果一致的話我們外配的父母是不是也可以跟陸配一樣可以定居台灣"},{"start":5747.864,"end":5758.968,"text":"委員會跟你報告這個問題牽涉到三個機關三部法律只要你管的機關你說對就對了不能再去講了惡話牽涉到的法律是選罷法第二個機關是陸委會牽涉到的法律是聯邦人民關係條例第三個機關是內政部牽涉到的是國際法所以你要全盤的看才能夠"},{"start":5778.134,"end":5786.759,"text":"你只要回答你的責任範圍,你管不到他們,他們有回答他們的範圍,不用你再去解釋。然後第二個,聽我講完,因為時間的關係,剛剛主委的報告說有提到114年的預算實施計畫中有幾大重點,其中有電腦系統"},{"start":5799.705,"end":5804.949,"text":"標準的驗證加強選舉人員的專業知識以落實的宅法案件。那是我們知道中選會的業務還有就是在集中除了大選之外每年的執行業務狀況都差不多啦所以請教主委在我們中選會113年的業務執行的狀況你覺得你滿意嗎?"},{"start":5828.513,"end":5847.288,"text":"一、一三年的部分一、一三年我們最重要的一個選舉就是總統、總統、副總統所以說你滿意嗎我滿意我們通常都相當的盡心盡力除了選務之外事情都沒有做好幫你回饋一下哪一點沒有做好請委員指教"},{"start":5847.988,"end":5857.491,"text":"來你自己看所以確實有很多地方沒有做好還有就是電子選舉與專業知識的方面要加強比如說我們罷免與公投投票是不是是我們公民參政與選舉的權利"},{"start":5868.795,"end":5871.557,"text":"非常重要非常重要的一份如果是的話為何兩個系統罷免連署系統還有公投連署的系統從107年到現在只有公投連署系統在4月上線罷免連署系統到現在都沒有辦法上線使用但是呢但是還編列了149萬維護費"},{"start":5899.055,"end":5905.619,"text":"請教一下這樣子都沒有上線還要去編列線上的維護費的使用但是呢我們現在就是我們的公投的系統"},{"start":5916.866,"end":5920.227,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":5944.164,"end":5958.016,"text":"二、審查委員堅持公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員堅持公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員堅持公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員堅持公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5962.02,"end":5966.601,"text":"公投不會連署了嗎?上限你沒有編列維護費,所以這個機器你已經車役好了,你不用再維護了。但是我們沒有看到你的預算,你預算的是編列維護罷免系統。公投的罷免系統你沒有編列,表示你車役已經沒有問題了,是嗎?"},{"start":5988.067,"end":5991.109,"text":"我們有編列維護費公職公投的這個聯署系統在已經上線了我們隨時都要一面準備這是第一點所以表示你覺得說我們明年不會你預測到了還是說你們覺得他的"},{"start":6012.441,"end":6014.422,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6036.528,"end":6037.069,"text":"王美惠委員"},{"start":6066.075,"end":6067.058,"text":"主席,請留部長跟理主委。"},{"start":6077.372,"end":6088.061,"text":"主委補充告詐,在這裏本學先把我們補充談論到,我們現在有為了我們的理論做過的六項,還可以去申請一萬六十五費。在這裏面本學所了解,您給他的未到金三十萬,本學在這裏要建議說,"},{"start":6105.073,"end":6114.298,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案"},{"start":6123.939,"end":6128.641,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":6142.088,"end":6151.91,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條"},{"start":6170.474,"end":6198.951,"text":"是執法的公告那公告的預告我重新再講一下現在預告快結束的時候呢大概會有收到很多不同的意見包括說現任跟承認里長要不要包括這一屆或者是說獎勵金30萬或者是說他有承認譬如說這個外患內亂或者是社攤的部分要不要取消"},{"start":6200.031,"end":6228.345,"text":"這三個意見我們會在做比較審慎的研議之後在執法預告結束之後再做一下修正再來對外做我們內政部的公告的版本當然我們都很肯定包括很多委員很關心像村里長他們在春節的慰問金或者是九任、六任以上這個六任要不要連續六任要不要包括現任的部分都有不同的說法我們會把所有的意見全部收整之後做一個最對外的公告說明"},{"start":6231.118,"end":6237.624,"text":"不好意思,委員暫停一下,再麻煩你按一下麥克風,他才會開始錄音,謝謝。謝謝,感謝主席。在這裏補充一下,說明得很清楚,因為我覺得這個高麗里頂,我相信無論在哪一棟都希望這樣做,所以在這個規定當中,我覺得我們要去做,"},{"start":6255.117,"end":6260.059,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":6275.285,"end":6277.267,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6292.179,"end":6295.243,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案。"},{"start":6308.2,"end":6314.582,"text":"在此,說實在的,我如果問這樣,算你來行的,我才算孩子要問大人的回答。在此,我認為我們的選法法,政府未來的選法法就是說,跟你來補算,在這個過程中你做一件事,做啊做。"},{"start":6329.528,"end":6335.753,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":6358.973,"end":6363.378,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17年度中央政府總預算案關於中央政委委員會及所屬單位預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等17年度中央政府總預算案。"},{"start":6381.577,"end":6389.042,"text":"這就是民意的一個流動,所以你不能用之前一年半前的民意跟現在的民意來做比較。"},{"start":6411.797,"end":6415.999,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6426.744,"end":6428.665,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":6452.683,"end":6456.308,"text":"所以在這東西是鄉親給的名字以後,過一年過年外的時候,他覺得他沒有實際對我們的承諾的時候,我們要不要罷免,很可能會比東西是選給他更多票。"},{"start":6472.049,"end":6483.616,"text":"這不可能吧!是會流動的!對啊!所以說在這個選法法裡面,我覺得大家要慎慎去評估,如果好的民意代表,我們當然要來撈下來,要繼續讓他為北省來服務,有時候他如果做得不好,未必他該做的工作的時候,"},{"start":6498.137,"end":6503.862,"text":"罷免,我們要這個法,要修好,不管什麼人,都是一視同仁。"},{"start":6509.368,"end":6510.028,"text":"黃建斌委員"},{"start":6542.239,"end":6544.981,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請李主委好請李主委委員好"},{"start":6553.669,"end":6579.294,"text":"主委早安早主委我們早在今天要討論今天的議題之前我想要請教主委一個問題主委你最近有沒有發現一份新的民調是根據台灣民意基金會的最新民調就是民眾對於賴清德總統處理國家大事的方式包括重要的人事安排還有政策他的贊同率只有42.8%是上任以來最低"},{"start":6580.254,"end":6586.536,"text":"不贊成率更超過贊同率,呈現死亡交叉。總統聲望下滑5.8個百分點,等同流失113萬人支持。"},{"start":6596.019,"end":6618.713,"text":"在我們這個左內閣的內閣的這個施政表現滿意度更不到4成不滿意度也是高於滿意度剛安天公會閉起來聲望重挫5.4個百分點也大概流失超過100萬的支持者在這邊要問一下主委身為內閣的議員請問你對這樣的民調有什麼看法對於我們中選會的表現又有怎麼樣的看法"},{"start":6619.877,"end":6636.227,"text":"就相同或類似的事件所做的民意調查不一而足當然我們作為內閣的一份子對於相關的民調都會注意但是同時作為一個獨立機關我們不方便評論"},{"start":6637.208,"end":6659.035,"text":"好,謝謝主委的說法,表示尊重。但主委提醒主委不要忘記,民調其實就是民意的展現。那為什麼民眾對現在的總統府、總統跟政府有這麼高的不滿意度?那我根據同一份民調來顯示,有關朝野政黨持續對立的責任歸屬,有高達46.8%,就是最快一半的民眾認為,這政黨你要負最大的責任。"},{"start":6664.176,"end":6674.78,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":6688.985,"end":6699.268,"text":"二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":6715.332,"end":6730.558,"text":"新國會學者智庫公布,將近七成民眾認為八大罷免不利於國家安定。也有許多學者表達,現行罷免制度恐會衍生腐爛罷免,造成社會對立動盪,因此將近高達六成民眾並不認同現行罷免門檻。"},{"start":6733.979,"end":6739.286,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":6751.542,"end":6758.007,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案"},{"start":6768.803,"end":6796.383,"text":"民進黨的提出這個惡意罷免的案子很簡單,就是我們民進黨的立委許智傑也曾經在接受廣播節目的時候講到嘛,他說一直在發文講,他說民進黨只能用罷免的手段才能讓國會過半,不然我們會苦四年。他甚至鎖定了九個,九個國民黨籍的立委罷免名單,他說因為這的人比較好罷免,我們要選這個高的人,其中的包括我本人。"},{"start":6797.384,"end":6811.462,"text":"我認為在這段時間內我和大家的同事相處也不會壞我也很認真地學習我也很認真地想要把選區選民交代的任務來解決可是我們不知道為什麼我們也會被列進來"},{"start":6812.483,"end":6838.498,"text":"他自己說,其實這些被點名罷免的名單,有些相處很中性,一碼幹要到頂。由此可見,其實徐委員心裡面他自己很清楚,推動這個罷免其實一點都不合理,只是為了政黨的利益,要把人拉來搶得過半日西翅。我想這樣子,因為這樣的罷免要浪費那麼多人民的納稅錢,浪費我們社會的能量,這個是撕裂這個整個國家安定。"},{"start":6839.758,"end":6858.129,"text":"懺悔民主元兇這絕對有檢討的必要性我尊重委員這一番這個說明但是我另外有一個問題委員是不是可以做參考就是說在委員的面前你認為說如果說有什麼罷免的草之類的你認為沒道理的嘛那沒道理是應該有道理沒道理應該就是這個論述嘛相互鳴的攻防嘛"},{"start":6866.57,"end":6875.674,"text":"那不應該你認為說到底有沒有道理有沒有道理是要用修改法律變動選制來處理這樣子的問題我感覺英國之間可能有一些"},{"start":6882.176,"end":6889.742,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":6907.639,"end":6908.179,"text":"二、審查委員黃潔委員"},{"start":6952.512,"end":6953.213,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":6964.127,"end":6982.478,"text":"好 那我這邊還是要表達一下我認為今天既然是預算跟法案同時審查其實就應該依照慣例至少要有6加2以上的時間或是5加2以上的時間像昨天其實也是5加2但其實張偉就讓黃國昌委員一個人講了15分鐘甚至張偉自己也講了12分鐘結果今天在這邊限制我們的發言我認為這個"},{"start":6989.682,"end":6992.225,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":7006.449,"end":7021.172,"text":"每天登記的人不同本席是維護今天登記發言的特別民進黨委員今天登記發言特別多所以本席希望說讓大家都可以暢所欲言所以稍微調整"},{"start":7022.765,"end":7046.563,"text":"謝謝,好,謝謝昭偉。那我也認為如果要暢所欲言至少也要讓我們維持基本的這個分中數啦,否則照目前這樣的時間實在是很難在這麼短的時間內把我們所有想講的內容不管是對預算的意見還是對今天如此重大的法案包括過去,其實,不好意思時間先暫停,現在還是在回應昭偉喔。好,可以暫停。"},{"start":7048.237,"end":7073.496,"text":"好 謝謝那因為包括今天審這個選罷法也是非常重大的法案那其實朝委也知道說過去其實國民黨團也二度的說今天這個法案是非常有爭議所以其實也都暫緩排案那今天既然這個法案要在這裡審查要尋答這麼重大這麼大家也都認為應該要好好審查的東西結果時間還比較短這樣豈不是很難對所有的人民交代嗎"},{"start":7074.677,"end":7101.497,"text":"這個時間沒有最短本席剛剛有說明在我們內政委員會第一會期就上個會期有4加1今天是5加1那再來就是預算跟法案審查的時候其實我們還有更多我們深入討論的機會謝謝好 謝謝昭緯那我也說因為今天不只是法案還有預算那上個會期其實沒有預算所以今天是兩倍的內容兩倍的工作量大家的討論時間應該要更充分"},{"start":7103.799,"end":7132.504,"text":"對今天有比上個會期多了的時間多對我知道多了一分鐘一分鐘要處理兩倍的工作量這樣還是非常的不夠登記發言的人數是三倍好謝謝其實不管登記發言的人數是多少既然發言的人多我們就應該要有更充分的時間討論可以再多排幾天都沒有問題你可以今天也排接下來下一次在輪值到我們徐昭偉的時候你再排"},{"start":7132.904,"end":7135.547,"text":"也很好啊,大家用更多的時間、更成熟的來把這個非常完整的法案內容做討論,這樣是不是更圓滿呢?"},{"start":7143.387,"end":7170.725,"text":"好,可以開始質詢,請您開始。好,謝謝張委。那首先我們請教一下主委,因為今天其實這個選報法的提案有非常多提案委員內容都不一樣。那要進到這個細節的討論實在是時間不夠。那我還是要講一下這個罷免權的核心,因為我自己作為當事人,其實罷免權的精神就是人民可以選你上去,就可以把你下架下來。"},{"start":7172.226,"end":7182.393,"text":"這個是賦予人民最基本也最核心的權利可是呢今天看到一個非常非常關鍵的一個條文是說接下來他們希望把這個罷免的門檻變成是當選票數加一這個門檻是不是施行下去會變成史上最高不只是鳥籠罷免甚至是要把這個罷免進到豬籠裡面完全再也無法行使了呢"},{"start":7204.78,"end":7222.028,"text":"我們認為罷免是憲法所保障公民的參政權所以不管是選舉、罷免、創制、復決法制的制定、調整、修改都應該要站在以保障公民的參政權為出發點"},{"start":7224.289,"end":7228.371,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":7252.685,"end":7278.145,"text":"公民權的部分所表示的意見第二點就是罷免跟選舉這個中間時間的落差有一年半不管是罷免也好不管是選舉也好都是一個民意的檢驗民意的檢驗但是民意在一年半的時間裡面會有很多的變化人事都會有很多的這個更迭"},{"start":7279.506,"end":7287.634,"text":"三、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第四、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第五、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第七、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第八、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第九、審查公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":7302.888,"end":7322.552,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「"},{"start":7332.634,"end":7337.037,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉草案： 公職人員選舉草案： 公職人員選舉草案： 公職人員選舉草案： 公職人員選舉草案： 公職人員選舉草案： 公職人員選舉草案： 公職人員選舉草案： 公職人員選舉草案："},{"start":7362.355,"end":7369.865,"text":"昨天說要還權移民今天就沒收罷免權這不是雙標 什麼是雙標所以我認為在這邊很明顯國民黨就是為了要鞏固自己的權利根本就是威權的擁護者根本就是為了要把所有權利自攬在自己身上"},{"start":7381.112,"end":7398.718,"text":"所以才會進行這樣的修法那其實剛剛主委說到的我也非常有感因為我個人也被提過罷免當時在我選上之後過了兩年多被提罷免的理由竟然是因為說我違反香港的國安法甚至是因為我支持同志運動"},{"start":7400.278,"end":7414.711,"text":"這個不只是跟當時我當選的這樣的時空背景環境不一樣更跟這個罷免行使權利的理由一點都沒有正當性所以我非常認同其實剛剛主委所說的"},{"start":7415.231,"end":7429.084,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文"},{"start":7435.109,"end":7462.011,"text":"在選前一定的時間裡面對於民意調查的一個限制這個在國外的立法例也很多最重要的一個理由就是不希望這些各項的民調來影響到選民的判斷尤其有很多民調並不一定是接近事實那麼候選人本身"},{"start":7463.052,"end":7478.676,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九"},{"start":7492.879,"end":7521.738,"text":"在協商通過之後到現在為止民調影響這個選舉的事情情況是越來越複雜是越來越複雜越來越多越來越嚴重所以在這樣子的一個條件之下反而是是不是要思考這個時間可以再延長沒錯那你反方向要來縮短的話我們認為實在是非常需要再審慎"},{"start":7522.638,"end":7546.316,"text":"好,謝謝諸位的說明,我講一下,因為其實這個選前民調要10天之前來公布,當時的時空背景是這樣,在2000年的總統大選,選前兩天,時任台北市長的馬英九他公布了連戰的民調已經贏過了宋楚瑜,所以導致宋楚瑜以30萬票之差敗給了陳水扁,但是當時連戰跟宋楚瑜最後差了170萬票,"},{"start":7547.577,"end":7566.989,"text":"所以後來這個被稱作為馬英九條款這個就是在當時的時空背景之下朝野共同決定這個如果沒有規定10天的選前民調的話一定會有受害者當時最大的受害者就是宋楚瑜所以呢直到去年宋楚瑜都還在講什麼他說國民黨就是創始的假民調這是宋楚瑜說的"},{"start":7571.972,"end":7598.695,"text":"那結果汪小林現在要把10天改成3天我看了一下支持的人有傅坤祺總召耶當時2000年的時候傅坤祺總召就是親民黨的耶他自己出門都不幫宋楚東主席來抱一下軀來幫他解釋一下幫他鼓勵一下結果這個時候還跟著汪小林搞這種非常不適宜的修法那我也講一下最近的例子"},{"start":7600.496,"end":7618.061,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：一、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「"},{"start":7625.407,"end":7639.573,"text":"上次上次排會你們浪費大家一整天的時間好不好不要講這些沒有意義的話你尊重大家好不好時間到了每個每個委員會都這樣"},{"start":7649.066,"end":7654.068,"text":"二、審查委員王國昌等15分﹑張偉等12分﹑張偉等12分﹑張偉等15分﹑張偉等12分﹑張偉等12分﹑張偉等12分﹑張偉等12分﹑"},{"start":7669.77,"end":7672.052,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":7700.29,"end":7718.74,"text":"當時最大的受害者是誰?是國民黨耶!就是因為這樣最後才沒有藍白河嘛!所以按照汪小林委員的修法這種民調如果在選前三天公佈以目前的情況會不會不一樣了呢?所以我認為這樣的修法真的必須要非常審慎時間甚至可以再延長而絕對不是縮短請國民黨自己想清楚謝謝主席"},{"start":7727.503,"end":7729.363,"text":"好接下來請張志倫委員主席好各位委員各位官員大家早有請這個李主委請李主委跟劉部長請劉部長"},{"start":7758.125,"end":7769.89,"text":"部長好 主委好首先要跟部長跟主委請教最近大家所關切非常大的一個國際新聞南韓總統尹錫悅在12月3號宣布戒嚴歷時6個小時在12月4號凌晨宣布戒嚴"},{"start":7776.573,"end":7800.149,"text":"但是立法院民進黨黨團卻發文附和支持這樣的舉動,引發大批網友抨擊後刪文,並馬上在4日也澄清絕對不支持戒嚴。消息傳回南韓之後,南韓主流媒體及日本媒體紛紛報導,直指民進黨支持戒嚴是在野黨批評後才迅速刪除。"},{"start":7807.394,"end":7816.34,"text":"民進黨黨團發文:「南韓國會被親北韓勢力操控,南韓總統李錫悅為守護民主自由體制,緊急宣布全國戒嚴。」"},{"start":7817.745,"end":7840.111,"text":"最後一段時間關係不要懷疑聽台灣的我們其實每分每秒無時無刻都在抵抗世界等級的暗黑勢力在侵蝕這個國家可是事實上是什麼事實上是以習越他的聲望低迷在於不僅他的夫人有一些醜聞或一些弊案以及他治國不佳導致南韓十月份的物價指數大漲1.3%"},{"start":7842.392,"end":7844.794,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2"},{"start":7869.478,"end":7885.576,"text":"南韓戒嚴民進黨聲援全世界都看到這個真的是民進黨的真心化大冒險民進黨搞認知作戰到這樣的程度不僅讓臺灣的國際關係低落也傷害國家團結以及民主自由過去以來的民主自由"},{"start":7886.116,"end":7907.626,"text":"賴清泉的總統在國慶演講大聲疾呼要談團結國家安定社會可是現在卻縱容自己本黨民進黨團用認知作戰來分裂國人台灣是在民國76年解嚴金門是在民國81年解嚴為什麼要請教主委跟部長的原因因為只要是"},{"start":7909.066,"end":7918.908,"text":"這個戒嚴的國家其實就是沒有選舉所以我想要請教李靜永主委跟我們的劉部長對於這樣子民進黨這樣子發文的意見報告委員我們內政部並不是戒嚴的主管機關所以沒有辦法回應李靜永主委"},{"start":7936.168,"end":7951.876,"text":"我們從媒體報導得知當韓國總統發布這個戒嚴令之後那我們國家的國安單位他們是隨時掌握了相關的訊息那麼也做必要的因應"},{"start":7952.836,"end":7980.421,"text":"同時賴總統雖然仍在國外訪問但是也能夠完全掌握整個的狀況那這樣全盤的看起來是有準備的是有準備的國內各行各業也沒有發生有什麼這個不安或者是動難的一個狀況我們希望我們希望這個國內的這個這個安全社會的安全國家的安全都不會因此而受到任何的影響"},{"start":7981.081,"end":7991.368,"text":"所以主委不支持這樣子的發文內容不僅傷害台灣的國際關係以及傷害台灣的民主自由及國家團結是嗎?中選會對這方面我們不予評論"},{"start":7992.284,"end":8014.205,"text":"不予評論,那應該就是不支持了。好,那接下來我來請教,其實在立法院內政委員會經過民進黨三次的杯葛議事,今天好不容易立法委員可以上台質詢。在我們中選會的報告裡面也提到謝國良市長的罷免案,"},{"start":8015.046,"end":8039.342,"text":"那我特別要提到我認為罷免案絕對不能是政治惡意罷免尤其這個李酉昌前部長他當時在謝國良市長的罷免案他不僅發臉書需要說這個要來支持這樣的罷免案然後等到這個罷免案結束了以後他才這個10月13號罷免案是罷免案的進行中他在前一天晚上我還記得他有發臉書還是什麼的"},{"start":8040.763,"end":8066.23,"text":"然後在10月16號他經這個媒體採訪的時候他才提出如果是有大罷免的話即便是值得商議討論而且這不是民主常態那我們可以看到現在很多的新聞不管是青鳥等等的活動都在支持大罷免那我是不是想請問一下你們跟這個前內政部部長林佑昌的想法是不是一樣是不是不支持這樣子的大罷免行動是不是請部長跟主委回答"},{"start":8070.224,"end":8097.145,"text":"報告委員我們在主管選舉罷免法的時候其實並沒有政黨的差異任何個人或任何團體按照選舉罷免法所提出的提議、連署或者是罷免或者是其他的包括公投在內的創制、復決我們一切都是依法行政所以每一個公民有他們的參政權還有言論自由我們都充分尊重我想這是我們憲法所授予民主國家必要的公民的參政權的保障"},{"start":8097.945,"end":8112.259,"text":"好,謝謝部長,稍等一下齁,我想請教部長,內政部長林佑昌是說他不支持這樣的大罷免活動也非常太,那你的意見是支持所有公民團體不管是政黨的公民團體的自由意識是嗎?所以你跟林佑昌的想法是不一樣的?"},{"start":8113.32,"end":8128.752,"text":"李佑昌現在是民進黨秘書長我現在是內政部部長所以我說內政部所主管的法律裡面我們是保障每一位公民參政的權利包括選舉罷免、創制、復決我們都是依照規定來辦理請教"},{"start":8132.334,"end":8158.092,"text":"主委是,謝謝主委中選會是一個獨立的機關我們秉持選務中立依法行政的立場對於各項選舉罷免的業務都是依法來執行好,那接下來馬上請教在選法法第七十五條就職未滿一年不得提出罷免可是在內政部的函令是寫說未滿一年進行罷免可徵求提議所以現在離這個就滿"},{"start":8159.513,"end":8187.134,"text":"還沒有未滿一年我想要請教竹蕊到底現在在收罷免的聯署書是否合法合規選罷法的規定是就只未滿一年不得提出罷免案所以中選會在審查提議的文件的時候我們當然是必須要在滿一年之後我們才可能受理"},{"start":8187.894,"end":8214.863,"text":"一年內收取聯署書可以嗎?在滿一年之前到底他的聯署書是什麼時候收取的我們因為案子我們還沒受理所以無從去查我們無從去審查沒有審查因為媒體在大街小巷都在收取你無法審查我們只是法律沒有規定不能把頭埋在沙子裡就看不到但是我們要依法行政"},{"start":8215.985,"end":8235.892,"text":"的確是有這樣的事情,所以請你調查了解嗎?那最後再請你回後再提書面資料給我。那最後再請跟部長報告,我支持剛剛王美惠委員所講,里長任滿六屆滿65歲是要提供他一個,現在提議是30萬的一個,給他一個慰問金。"},{"start":8237.432,"end":8260.205,"text":"這個部分其實地方的政府尤其地方的民政機關有在提議說這個部分的錢是不是中央可以來支援因為如果是一次性的話金額才會高達數千萬其實對各台灣的地方政府都是一個財務吃緊的部分那等到這一次如果第一次性的付完了以後等後續的這個錢每年如果有任期滿65歲以上的地方政府來支援這可以來協助嗎?"},{"start":8262.495,"end":8278.894,"text":"是我知道地方政府會有財政上的困難但是我們也是希望說在審查的時候這個法律可以先通過好那地方政府的經費的話再想說再請部長我們的預算並沒有現在先編列進去對就是後年度才可能會發生再拜託部長來協助好嗎謝謝"},{"start":8284.659,"end":8294.026,"text":"徐宇珍委員徐宇珍委員答詢完,諮詢完我們休息五分鐘,讓行政單位可以用洗手間謝謝主席,我們請內政部劉部長,中選會李竺偉請劉部長李竺偉"},{"start":8310.433,"end":8325.026,"text":"許議員好部長好主委好部長主委我想從2016年的這個罷免門檻下修之後各式的罷免案就經常的發生那根據中華民國的憲法規定的話人民有創制復決選舉罷免的權利"},{"start":8327.388,"end":8342.349,"text":"那既然罷免是在我國憲法上在直接民主下承認的一個制度所以我要針對聯署的部分跟你們請教請問一下部長就是平凡的罷免案會不會造成國家選舉資源的浪費"},{"start":8345.774,"end":8367.145,"text":"報告委員我想要從另外一個觀點來切進去就是我剛剛所說的如果這是憲法賦予公民應該有的權利的話我們充分尊重但是平凡與否比如說您剛剛所提到從2016到現在為止我們所看到的部分大概各個政黨都有人被罷免或是各個政黨都有人提出罷免案那您認為平凡的罷免案會造成"},{"start":8369.326,"end":8377.811,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8397.544,"end":8413.552,"text":"2022年1月11日,民進黨立委郭國文、賴瑞榮都有提出,為了避免政治鬥爭的罷免,層出不窮,主張區域立委及行政首長的罷免案應該加上罷免票數須高於被罷免者的得票數,預防未來出現惡霸的狀況。當時部長您擔任立法委員,您也有連署。"},{"start":8420.856,"end":8431.271,"text":"所以您也提到說罷免門檻有必要提高並審慎考慮是否要維持民意代表可以被罷免的制度那即使維持民意代表可以被罷免也應該區分為單一選區跟複數選區的罷免標準那請問部長"},{"start":8437.039,"end":8459.865,"text":"當時您的主張是怎樣?對,報告委員,這個案子呢,第一個借其不敘審。然後再來呢,我來主張的部分的話呢,我是覺得是可以討論。那就是剛剛我所說的,罷免與否,或者是選舉與否,這是公民的參政權。那不要有政黨惡性競爭的考量的話,我們願意呢,跟各個政黨來做一個公平公開的溝通跟交流。"},{"start":8460.405,"end":8474.616,"text":"現在我們在做一個公平公開的訊答跟討論請教一下部長跟主委現在的罷免制度有雙低的問題就是成案條件低跟通過門檻低的雙低設計的缺失"},{"start":8478.438,"end":8486.961,"text":"也讓罷免變成有心人要建構個人聲量的政治工具現在也有多份的民調顯示有超過58.9%的人反對這種少數否決多數的罷免規定也有超過56.6%的人支持罷免"},{"start":8496.283,"end":8509.041,"text":"同意票應高於我們當選的同意票數所以針對這個部分請問部長跟主委你們看這個民調認不認同現行的選罷法有這樣子的一個缺失要如何修正"},{"start":8510.329,"end":8537.915,"text":"所謂少數否決多數這樣子的講法我是覺得太過簡單太過簡單而且基礎事實是不一樣的為什麼說太過簡單呢因為在這個選舉的時候選舉的時候他的這個選舉人數投票率當選人數這個候選人的人數都不一樣跟罷免的時候完全不一樣"},{"start":8538.675,"end":8542.657,"text":"主要大家提出來的部分就是說現在的門檻走25%相對的低那但是我這次也沒有修正這個門檻沒有提高門檻的部分但是有可能這一位這個這個民意代表還有可能是三成的選票當選的那我們用25%把它的罷免"},{"start":8561.618,"end":8563.659,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":8580.43,"end":8589.695,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":8603.783,"end":8610.045,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":8619.309,"end":8624.577,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":8635.612,"end":8643.376,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人"},{"start":8655.863,"end":8661.893,"text":"內政部的報告說:「建議在各界凝聚共識後再行處理委託。」這句話可被解讀為內政部也不反對修罷免的門檻"},{"start":8668.324,"end":8693.622,"text":"報告委員我剛有跟各位委員報告就是說我們在內政委員會有舉行過兩次的公聽會各個學者專家的意見我們都審酌過了表示各界都沒有共識那我也可以解讀成各個政黨也沒有共識因為現在的現任的制度就是當時各個政黨在立法院裡面所這個同意出來的一個標準那如果說各個政黨在立法院所以現在我們就是要再來討論這樣子的一個問題嗎所以我說要一句共識是很重要的"},{"start":8697.585,"end":8702.473,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":8713.174,"end":8721.944,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人"},{"start":8734.458,"end":8737.279,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9289.701,"end":9292.863,"text":"好繼續開會接下來請李博毅委員謝謝我們請中選會李主委好請李主委"},{"start":9325.902,"end":9345.679,"text":"謝謝主委其實今天在審的這個選罷法裡面當然還有幾個內容但是其中會讓人民最覺得最被限縮這個罷免門檻的其實就是當選票數加一這一題那其實這一題我也覺得是假的"},{"start":9346.621,"end":9373.656,"text":"真的是在上一次真的是在11月20號的時候韓院長召集的政黨協調裡面他形式上通過的二讀版本他形式上協調完的二讀版本就是聯署罷免聯署要加身份證影本這件事情其實已經真正限縮人民的罷免權了主委你怎麼看我這樣舉例齁"},{"start":9375.322,"end":9382.271,"text":"在11月22號的時候當11月20的時候韓院長召集完這個協調11月21號"},{"start":9387.196,"end":9412.95,"text":"我就收到2020年當年在高雄市領銜罷免韓國瑜的領銜人尹立的電話他告訴我說這事情多嚴重以當年的罷免來講要罷免韓國瑜市長的時候來講高雄市兩百多萬個公民宿當年如果有這個罷免連署身份證銀本"},{"start":9416.856,"end":9441.941,"text":"當年必須要繳交最少23萬份高雄人的身份證銀版當年2020年的時候罷韓團體他是送繳了40萬份聯署書另外自己再被40萬份聯署書存底送到高雄市選委會來讓高雄市選委會來做查核如果"},{"start":9443.547,"end":9471.889,"text":"我們今天在內政委員會審理的這個加一其實是國民黨版的雙保險之一啦第一個罷免門檻加身份證的其實已經沒收了人民的罷免權利也就是說如果還要再罷免一次高雄市長當時的韓國瑜他必須要收到高雄市民超過25萬份的身份證銀本這是多大的事情啊主委你覺得這可行嗎"},{"start":9473.8,"end":9501.351,"text":"關於聯署必須要檢附聯署人的國民身份證影本這一點我們的立場最主要基於兩點理由我們認為是不宜第一個理由就是這是對於公民參政權的一個限制免宜要審慎現行的制度沒有自愛難行主委你講到公民權的一部分我再提今天還有一個案子除了加一之外還有一個案子"},{"start":9502.051,"end":9530.517,"text":"也就是不得提議、不得呈案。中選會接下來你接的案子會接不完。某某人、民眾、任何公民團體對於委員、對於立法委員或對於縣市長對於立法委員當天的言行或主張認為是有問題的話在網路上公開貼文批評要罷免。這樣算不算提議?"},{"start":9531.584,"end":9544.954,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":9549.026,"end":9573.222,"text":"這種主張我們都認為必須要審慎必須要讓社會很清楚的知道現在內政委員會現在立法院現在國民黨團提出來的版本到底要怎麼樣限制人民的權利我在這邊這樣主張啦我講一個剛剛我也看到其他國民黨團齁其他不在內政委員會的委員都有來關心這個案子也就是加一的這個案子"},{"start":9573.982,"end":9591.262,"text":"包含徐巧欣原本她當選的票數八萬九千七百二十七票依照現行的罷免制度投票當天給她的人認為她要罷免她的票數是五萬八千七百零四票如果今天通過這個加一的版本"},{"start":9592.223,"end":9605.002,"text":"變成八萬九千七百二十八票比五萬八千七百零四票的版本多增加百分之一百五十三另外一個葉寅芝委員也一樣增加百分之一百三十四"},{"start":9606.261,"end":9626.221,"text":"這個就是人民當初把票投給你的時候就應該有這個罷免的權利你當選了之後要馬上把這個罷免的權利收回第一招先用這個身份證門檻第二招再用加一我認為生生不可啦所以在這邊必須要對"},{"start":9628.783,"end":9641.248,"text":"負責的對全國人民負責的對所有可以行使公民權利的人民來表述我們不支持這一個修法的門檻即使它是雙保險"},{"start":9643.55,"end":9668.164,"text":"謝謝委員不管是對於這個聯署的時候的國民身份證影本以及當選這個罷免案要多於當選的時候多一票這兩個修正的案子呢在選務機關的立場上我們其實認為應該要非常的審慎甚至於我們認為啦限制是不宜做任何的更改"},{"start":9669.005,"end":9694.303,"text":"投票的當天我在投票給這個立法委員或投票給這個縣市長我當年高雄市八十九萬人投票給韓國瑜的時候他就認為他應該好好的第一次來高雄選舉好好的當市長在隔年他宣布要選總統所有的人生氣所以當年會有超過八十九萬票"},{"start":9695.339,"end":9719.94,"text":"的同意罷免韓國瑜的人數到達93萬票這個以後也不會有了啦這個已經是空前的了但是人民記得那時候整個公民運動記得其實罷免的門檻不需要到這麼多其實只要到幾萬票就可以了只要到25%同意大於不同意就可以了現在"},{"start":9721.172,"end":9738.047,"text":"投給立委也一樣當年投給傅坤祺總召68786票同樣的只要48442票就可以罷免傅總召你今天要把他提高到68787票提高142%這個不是詐騙集團的作為 這個是什麼"},{"start":9744.888,"end":9751.022,"text":"這個就是詐騙集團啊這個就是你投我的時候那個罷免權我突然我當選之後我來自肥"},{"start":9751.877,"end":9761.199,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第"},{"start":9780.039,"end":9806.909,"text":"經過一年半的時間即便是當初投票支持的人他的立場也可能會變化他可能也會流向這個投票支持罷免對我們反對這個行為最後我也希望今天有非常非常多也是區域立委也有部分區的立委都來內政委員會來參與這個討論希望可以給大家完整的討論不要"},{"start":9808.871,"end":9809.772,"text":"二、審查委員吳祁鳴委員"},{"start":9839.471,"end":9845.477,"text":"好,召委,我們與會同仁,我們政府官員,請我們中選委主委。好,請立主委。"},{"start":9853.481,"end":9870.352,"text":"委員好,我首先拜託召委已經到12月5號了今天離我們要修會的時間也很近了我希望今天我們是可以先來審查我們的預算再來處理法案"},{"start":9871.929,"end":9893.38,"text":"那我在這邊還是一樣啦針對就是我們的選罷法六十七條第一項就要求同票數進行驗票的確認所以楊耀所提出的提案的就是以相同的抽籤來當選擇那這樣的話會變成一些"},{"start":9900.143,"end":9910.288,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":9928.976,"end":9955.149,"text":"主委這個問題我們一定要在中選會要審慎來做評估就選務來講的話就是如果是同票雙方對於抽籤都沒有問題那抽籤決定了大家都接受了這就省掉就是進行這個驗票所必須要耗費的這些成本"},{"start":9956.51,"end":9973.496,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第"},{"start":9980.978,"end":10004.808,"text":"對,所以楊曜的提案本席是會非常的認同所以針對這一點我們中選會可以來做研究好,那再來勒就是今天我們有委員提高公職人員罷免的通過的門檻其實現在的罷免我看我們的大選都是來到七成罷免"},{"start":10007.569,"end":10019.473,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":10034.097,"end":10050.22,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":10063.806,"end":10072.201,"text":"由其越近那假消息就越多那假民調也是越多所以在這種情形我認為維持10天這是應該是比較適當"},{"start":10076.826,"end":10091.029,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�"},{"start":10102.876,"end":10107.541,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":10119.059,"end":10131.929,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10149.983,"end":10151.325,"text":"劉許廷委員中選會主委李主委"},{"start":10168.803,"end":10194.32,"text":"主委辛苦了今天很多委員要質詢可能比較辛苦一點但沒有關係大家隨便討論昨天最新的禁新聞的政經情勢民調指出選罷法的修法在今天要討論的其中一個條文也就是說同意罷免人數要大於罷免人的當選票數46.3%的民眾黨贊同修法方向是高於不贊同的比例過去民眾黨公布的有63.9%同意加嚴選罷法的連署過程"},{"start":10197.822,"end":10215.596,"text":"在加嚴連署過程的前提條件之下還要再提高這個相關的就是同意票要大於這個罷免同意票要大於當初的當選票數也都還是有51.4%的人同意那再早一點新國會智庫公布的是58.9%的民眾不認同現行25%的罷免門檻這個認為罷免同意票要超過當選票數的是56.6%認為發動大罷免不利國家安定的有將近70%請問從中選會的角度如何回應這樣子的一些民意"},{"start":10227.718,"end":10255.428,"text":"若干的這個民意調查資料我們都看到了我們也都會做參考那關於相關的修正案中選會所持的理由也在歷次的這個討論當中我們有充分的表達委員如果有什麼指教的話我們也很願意在這個機會來向委員做說明就民意論民意啦基本上現在看起來多數民意是有支持這樣子法條的修正你同意嗎"},{"start":10256.547,"end":10260.712,"text":"或是說你有別的數據或是有別的資料跟證明說並不是多數民意?我對於這些問卷他們的這個問卷的這個設計並不是很清楚但是不管怎麼樣你這些民意調查我們都會作為參考"},{"start":10271.705,"end":10299.606,"text":"剛剛很多報案行政單位的立場基本上我們每次修法的時候行政單位大部分的立場都很保守都說在未有充分的共識之前不宜隨意推動對不對但是主委為什麼我們今天立法院要有所謂的表決的機制為什麼我們要有所謂的黨團協商為什麼要有所謂委員會討論不就是在試圖擱置爭議或者是行訴共識嗎對不對如果真的不能如果真的在很多的法案上沒有辦法達成共識的時候在民主的這樣子一個大的遊戲規則下面有沒有解決的方式"},{"start":10300.12,"end":10316.826,"text":"我們作為法律的主管機關以及執行機關也有責任必須要在修法的時候把我們的立場要說明清楚我們說明的這個內容也希望能夠得到委員的支持就沒有共識不構成不修法的理由"},{"start":10317.446,"end":10342.018,"text":"因為沒有共識的題目多討論也許出現共識如果真的在大部分的討論情況下最終還是各執一詞的時候也有所謂的民主的表決的機制嘛這主委你至少不會否定這樣的說法對不對我們尊重立法院所進行的承諾尊重立法院所進行的承諾謝謝好你剛剛在回答前面委員答詢的時候你有講說民意起起落落啊這個用什麼過去的民意跟現在的民意來這個沒有辦法及時的來反映我想問主委一個概念罷免應不應該是常態"},{"start":10343.158,"end":10368.034,"text":"就是我們在做代議政治的推動代議政治這樣子的一個過程中罷免應不應該是常態我想至少從憲法的規定把它規定在一起選舉、罷免、創制、複決這是權利對不對這是公民權我完全同意這是權利規定在憲法裡面它就是一個常態但是它是權利但它不應該是常態它如果是常態的話那我們是不是應該定期罷免公民權的常態公民權的常態"},{"start":10368.334,"end":10369.415,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10389.664,"end":10411.427,"text":"所以罷免如果符合法律的規定的話也應該算是一種常態雖然它不是一個定期的它不是一個定期的那它怎麼會是常態呢對不對所以罷免是一個公民行使的緊急權利也就是說當民意代表也好機關首長也好天路人員的時候人民可以站起來用他法律憲法所賦予他的權利來進行一個推翻所以這一點非常重要"},{"start":10412.688,"end":10435.588,"text":"就是選民對於當選人的支持已經有懷疑了已經有不同的意見了我們今天修正這個法律有沒有剝奪這樣權利其實沒有對不對我們只是訴求在過程中嚴謹中有更多的討論而且要符合最新的民意脈動站在我們的立場我們認為是加嚴了1994年也就是在降成25%之前的版本是什麼一半吧"},{"start":10438.862,"end":10440.644,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":10449.002,"end":10466.771,"text":"投票但是得票率得票率必須要得票必須要超過四分之一對要超過但有沒有像過去的版本一樣硬性規定投票率是沒有但是這個相對是有機會以前在硬性規定投票率的時候只要投票率不達標這條報名案就不成立所以大家會用冷處理的方式迴避民意那現在這樣的修法有沒有有沒有這樣的狀況不會"},{"start":10468.152,"end":10492.882,"text":"因為你到最後還是要面對啊!因為很有可能你不處理的時候反對的警察人數你就輸了嘛!對不對?那我再問一個問題我們用實際的數字來計算以桃園第一選區為例好了本期當選的票數11萬6千票左右當選票數48%但選區總人口數是33萬9也就是說我們的當選票數其實佔總人口的總人口數其實大概是3乘5左右大部分今天在座的區域民意代表大概都是這樣自己算一算就知道"},{"start":10493.622,"end":10508.518,"text":"所以當選票數加一也並不是回到2016修正之前的超高門檻而是在1994年的那個超高門檻跟2016年顯然大家現在認為有一點太低有可能讓罷免騷擾變成常態的情況下中間求取的平衡吧"},{"start":10509.219,"end":10510.64,"text":"不管是35%、40%或是10萬票、20萬票在投票選舉的時候的這個數據它並不是不動的它並不是不會改變的"},{"start":10525.046,"end":10552.445,"text":"尤其是這個支持支持度經過一年半到你講民意可能會變變化對對對人事這就是為什麼我一開始要問你罷免應不應該是常態的原因嘛罷免是突發嘛他不是常態常態叫選舉嘛為什麼我們要規定四年一次就是避免這個任期太長結果這個民意代表或者是機關首長背離民心你本來就一個選舉的機制放在那個地方去做汰換罷免是因應特殊狀況的時候他才有這個東西"},{"start":10552.805,"end":10578.771,"text":"所以你如果特殊狀況的門檻低於常態的門檻,這是很奇怪的一件事情,對不對?主委我這樣講沒有錯吧?你把它用這個常態,罷免變成常態,可能大家對於這個用詞的理解都是一樣。這個我不否認,但是43年再來的狀況是不是就是這樣?可能會影響到對於罷免相關制度的一個判斷。所以我不願意用是否常態,我只願意用如果符合相關規定的話,"},{"start":10580.992,"end":10607.214,"text":"其實今天如果沒有這樣子的所謂的大罷免或是連續發動或是什麼的話大家今天搞不好也不會討論選罷法我們就把話破到底去講但是實務上來講報告委員那這個我認為在修法的背景上動機上就有一些問題了是因為有特殊的控制形式所以我一定要問你你不去檢討彼此之間的攻防而是直接的要去動它基本的這個選舉罷免的制度"},{"start":10607.634,"end":10621.313,"text":"我今天要跟你去談為什麼罷免不應該變成常態的時候原因就在這個地方嘛它本來就不應該是一個被這個權力的行使我們都支持但這個權力不應該拿來變成互相攻擊跟鬥爭的工具啦"},{"start":10622.213,"end":10638.106,"text":"難道不是這樣嗎?就是對於罷免是不是有所謂的大罷免草你罷免我我罷免你為了防止這種情形所以我來修改選罷法這一點我認為是不好的啦我總結一下因為時間已經到了第一個現在的民意以最近幾次的民意調查來講"},{"start":10639.187,"end":10668.237,"text":"同意的是多於不同意的這是民意的反應我們除了在選舉的時候反應民意之外隨時實施的民意脈動就是代議政治要處理如果這個民意已經有一定的支持度跟水準的話你本來就應該要做出討論第二選舉才是代議政治的常態罷免是特殊狀況如果真的天怒人怨剛剛很多人都講說這以後就不可能成功不會啊雖然我們這對藍軍來講是很難過的事不過韓院長當初被罷免的票數他就超過了當選票數所以他並不會因為這樣制度的修正就表示到完全不可能"},{"start":10668.917,"end":10697.684,"text":"在非常態的狀況下依然是有可能的。第三個即便是今天照這樣的版本修正通過它也不像是1994年硬性規定的高投票率門檻它比較像是1994年版本跟2016年版本中間的折衷這三個立場這算是在野黨修法的一個正當性在這個地方跟主委做一下政策的對話但沒關係今天質詢的委員很多大家互相聽一下對方的意見這樣就可以了謝謝謝謝牛許廷委員也謝謝李主委接下來我們請徐欣盈召委"},{"start":10705.069,"end":10705.672,"text":"主席李珠瑋"},{"start":10718.227,"end":10738.557,"text":"李主委本席首先想請教您剛剛您在答詢的時候好像有講到你們現在準備要開始收集外國的罷免門檻的規定是這樣嗎?我們有若干資料了若干是多少?我們在整理好了之後再給整理好了沒?"},{"start":10738.857,"end":10759.933,"text":"今天這個有可能在中午以前提供嗎有現成的嗎有現成的資料你們這個收集了幾個國家的所以我要整理嘛你完全不知道嗎我知道了一些但是你知道哪幾個美、英、美、日、德這四個國家你們知道嗎我請我們的同仁來說明一下"},{"start":10761.732,"end":10774.247,"text":"直接回覆就是說英美日德這四個國家有沒有收集過目前有目前都知道那本席也要請教主委以一些國家他們的罷免門檻"},{"start":10776.647,"end":10781.808,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":10804.758,"end":10827.926,"text":"投票,您知道這個情況嗎?您對這樣子一些先進國家他們這樣的規定您的看法?這個很多國家規定的這個門檻不一而足,不一而足。但是有一點是可以確定的,就是任何國家沒有拿罷免票數跟當選票數來做比較的。"},{"start":10828.706,"end":10836.05,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�"},{"start":10852.197,"end":10875.99,"text":"這個人他犯了重罪所以他應該被罷免我們可能10%投票門檻是10%但是投票門檻10%之前他必須要是符合他有重罪他有貪污他有被停權、被停職所以本席要表達的就是這個部分您有思考過嗎?"},{"start":10877.071,"end":10893.789,"text":"也就是說人家是前面的條件他有一定的條件然後才訴諸民眾的投票這方面因為沒有相關的提案所以我們也沒有做資料的收集跟說明但是今天針對這個提案就是"},{"start":10894.75,"end":10899.051,"text":"二、審查委員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10918.083,"end":10937.256,"text":"在選舉期間有很多的訊息、詐騙、頻傳,您知道這種情況嗎?深受其害。深受其害,好好。所以啊,進入罷免的時候,也有,如果這個門檻,這個門檻過低,也極有可能這個錯誤的假訊息甚至媒體不時的報導,其實誤導了民眾。這一塊你有思考過嗎?"},{"start":10944.96,"end":10946.001,"text":"有多少比例受訪者有不實訊息讓民眾感到擔憂已經是國際普遍現象"},{"start":10966.681,"end":10992.147,"text":"就聯合國2023年的調查,就是去年。您知道有多少比例者是非常擔心假訊息對於整個投票的影響?您知道有多少比例呢?你不知道?那本席告訴你,87%。有87%的民眾都對這個非常的擔憂。是,相當嚴重。好,那中選會你們的職責是不是應該要審慎的採取選舉,這就算選舉違規案件吧?"},{"start":10997.872,"end":11016.761,"text":"有關於錯假訊息的處理尤其是怎麼樣能夠去破解跟澄清那這一點在選務的錯假訊息防治的部分中選會做得還算不錯了中選會對於有這種錯假訊息你們有沒有阻止並且澄清"},{"start":11017.801,"end":11031.812,"text":"審查委員會針對這些候選人或被罷免人各種假訊息處理嗎?牽涉到我們選務的部分,我們一定在第一時間澄清。而且我們會跟相關平台業者都有緊密的聯繫。"},{"start":11038.274,"end":11054.153,"text":"有一些假訊息你們所謂牽涉到你選務什麼選務針對不實的誣衊候選人的你們有處理嗎?沒有嘛!你們沒有處理嘛!如果有相關違反選罷法的規定當事人舉發的話我們會依法來處理"},{"start":11056.906,"end":11083.314,"text":"但是我們過去看到你們並沒有進行處理有啦有有有有進行處理那好應該要你們要維持公平公正中立你們不可以不不不聞不問我們不會介入當事人的工房但是如果有違反選罷法的案件的時候我們是會處理的這些假訊息你們會去會去協助澄清跟阻止過去看到是沒有必須要是違反選罷法"},{"start":11084.861,"end":11101.397,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草"},{"start":11102.472,"end":11117.064,"text":"對阿,過去看到你們就是沒有做好。對,有啦。好,最後本席要請教您,對於那個已經當選人他因故沒有就職,那你們的這個保證金還有這個他的選舉補助你們會不會發這個發還給他?"},{"start":11123.32,"end":11143.408,"text":"這個在修正案裡面我們也表達了我們的意見因為沒有就職他可能的原因是相當的多包括死亡、陰暗羈押所以你們的立場態度但是我們並沒有根據去追回這個保證金或者是補貼款沒有這個根據"},{"start":11146.326,"end":11170.475,"text":"所以還是會發嗎?還是會發。那這個有人覺得說這個應該要扣留,你們的看法?我們的意見是請大家要審慎啦,因為這個不依而逐啦,不依而逐,原因不依而逐啦。那如果他是不是他不就職,他不就職又要重新辦一次選舉,所以保證金應該是他已經完成選舉應該還給他。"},{"start":11172.276,"end":11173.036,"text":"二、審查委員蔡奕瑜委員"},{"start":11218.93,"end":11231.018,"text":"好我們現在是不是有請我們李主委跟我們內政部我們劉部長好請李主委還有部長"},{"start":11232.575,"end":11252.508,"text":"我先就教李主委,主委這個關於今天選罷法的這個修正事實上我們現在選罷法在草野協商甚至院會可能就要面對的一個表決就是會這個提案連署的要附上身份證的影本"},{"start":11253.348,"end":11256.85,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":11273.82,"end":11293.327,"text":"他要提出他的身份證第一他擔心這個身份證可能會被詐欺或或者是他覺得他身份證他的個資交出來對他來說是有疑慮的所以基本上在這樣的一個前提之下即罷免的一個連署就已經變得非常高的一個門檻主委你認為沒錯吧是"},{"start":11296.268,"end":11324.38,"text":"所以在這段時間來事實上我們一直在思考用身分證的一個影本那算是國民黨藍白現在不斷地去講說他們認為罷免如果太腐爛或大罷免不好所以他們要把這個身分證的條件影本已經放在那結果現在我們委員會又再處理又要再加嚴一次"},{"start":11325.798,"end":11339.485,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":11354.178,"end":11382.03,"text":"那我們現在我們在現場我們黃捷委員他也面對過當時國民黨的惡霸投票率是41.54那我們陳柏惟基進黨的這個51.72投票率比較高那同樣當時林昶佐中正萬華林昶佐41.93的投票率謝國良最近發生的是50.44的投票率事實上以這幾次來看"},{"start":11383.35,"end":11409.724,"text":"這樣的投票率沒有一次大於真正在普選不管是立委也好 不管是縣市長也好 不管是議員也好投票率都大於我剛剛所念的數字 沒有錯吧是的是啊 所以這就呈現一個矛盾了那既然在普選的時候投票率那麼高在罷免的時候明顯投票率就不會到達那樣的一個康章那現在"},{"start":11411.275,"end":11426.517,"text":"國民黨這個版本,要把它賦予說你要大於當選的投票數,哇,這個門檻下去,我看要罷免都沒說了啦,大概是不太可能了。我們的選罷法並沒有限制罷免投票率的門檻。"},{"start":11428.188,"end":11445.363,"text":"那所以罷免的投票率即便是百分之四十甚至於低於百分之四十我們不能夠因此而否定它的效力啦當然啦所以既然是有效的一個罷免的投票率"},{"start":11446.084,"end":11460.915,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":11474.986,"end":11481.154,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":11491.286,"end":11513.076,"text":"是跟人民就是一個契約關係這樣的一個契約發動權是在人民的手上人民給你這個權利讓你有機會擔任民意代表當然透過罷免就是把就是把跟你的契約把它收回然後在大法官4至499號的時候講得很清楚大法官4至499號是國大自己言論"},{"start":11514.176,"end":11538.524,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二"},{"start":11544.429,"end":11569.768,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人"},{"start":11571.409,"end":11597.085,"text":"二、審查委員蔡玉玉委員,請您尊重,好不好?謝謝。我本席到其他委員會,他四分鐘,我四分鐘到我也就停止了。就這樣,他後面沒有人了。你現在後面,你們一堆人,後面都是貴黨的委員。昨天後面沒有什麼人了啦,好不好?不是啦,真的真的,請你尊重,請你尊重啦。"},{"start":11598.586,"end":11625.939,"text":"請你尊重,請你尊重啦不是,時間到了不是,不是吧時間到了,時間到了不是啦,所以你不要浪費沒有,後面那麼多個委員我們一定要堅持時間到了,請你回座請你回座請你回座"},{"start":11627.76,"end":11631.244,"text":"請你回座請你回座時間到沒有請你回座請你回座請你回座好不好"},{"start":11640.78,"end":11641.881,"text":"本席宣布休息。"},{"start":11682.513,"end":11691.188,"text":"因為今天發言的委員非常多,如果大家都這樣的話,沒有會議的秩序。"},{"start":11790.384,"end":11792.466,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草"},{"start":11852.188,"end":11863.243,"text":"主席在這裡補充宣告我們休息到12點半請大家行政單位可以去用餐我們休息用餐到12點半"},{"start":13579.821,"end":13582.651,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條。"},{"start":13798.121,"end":13799.442,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文"},{"start":14028.142,"end":14028.656,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具"},{"start":15419.915,"end":15442.48,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":15453.134,"end":15474.86,"text":"不,不用上集回顧啦上集回顧就要先幫我剛才說五分鐘,不然我會擔保要忘記一下阿剛剛沒有主席,剛剛你是互相喊休息欸阿我就傻傻的站在這裡,哇對不對我雖然有去偷吃便當,不過我基本上也有聽你的話"},{"start":15571.343,"end":15586.981,"text":"本席﹗今天如果蔡委員這樣,後面這麼多的委員,我其實是尊重後面還有五十幾位委員的發言。"},{"start":15590.353,"end":15618.798,"text":"我剛剛已經給蔡委員她時間到我沒有馬上站起來後來我看她沒有收我站起來她說給她收尾我就給她收尾收尾了一分半還沒辦法我又提醒她光提醒也提醒大概她應該又再多講了一分半所以最後我才一直沒辦法請她停止嘛所以我才喊休息了沒有沒有妳想妳都有效應這個動作"},{"start":15620.779,"end":15635.147,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":15650.811,"end":15673.524,"text":"有啦!像阿川講的啦!呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":15681.192,"end":15704.472,"text":"我們現在繼續開會但是本席在這裡特別宣告我們接下來每一位外委員會的委員都是四分鐘針對剛剛蔡議員委員的情況因為現在才正式開會本席還是要說明剛剛蔡委員時間到本席沒有立刻站起來"},{"start":15705.453,"end":15708.414,"text":"審查委員蘇清泉等2審查委員蘇清泉等2審查委員蘇清泉等2審查委員蘇清泉等2"},{"start":15725.475,"end":15753.374,"text":"我們希望這個例子不要...主席主席基本上吼事實上大家在發言的時候你也可以多次制止我啊啊多次制止我你有什麼表現啊我有多次我有我有我有多次制止啊啊你一隻在我消音啊啊你一隻在我消音你看大家的官媒都這樣運作的啊我有多次制止啊不然主席這樣一隻就人化卡啊我有多次制止我今天真的有多次制止你你也要給我講個什麼啊"},{"start":15755.736,"end":15757.525,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":15758.919,"end":15761.341,"text":"主席主席事實上我剛剛確實已經給你了一個議題,我們就是要跟他說說"},{"start":15788.356,"end":15795.197,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":15798.184,"end":15804.568,"text":"請問民進黨的委員要不要繼續開會?如果要,我們就要尊重張祺凱委員。你們要繼續貪玩議事嗎?請問...所以麻煩請蔡易瑜委員離開發言台。"},{"start":15823.171,"end":15834.32,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":16045.043,"end":16048.862,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":16203.251,"end":16204.599,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草"},{"start":19201.766,"end":19202.547,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文"},{"start":20562.779,"end":20569.166,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":20618.175,"end":20625.739,"text":"好,我們繼續開會接下來請張綺凱委員發言請大家尊重張綺凱委員請大家注意會議的秩序好,謝謝,謝謝,我終於可以講話了"},{"start":20655.93,"end":20662.653,"text":"慾語請大家保持安靜。我們尊重張祺凱委員質詢的秩序。"},{"start":20664.189,"end":20678.455,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":20685.413,"end":20698.956,"text":"可不可以請大家安靜安靜安靜的聽質詢好不好你們不要那麼吵啦好不好麻煩麻煩我們蔡易瑜幹事長啊啊司機長啊司機長司機長"},{"start":20709.64,"end":20716.865,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":20733.658,"end":20743.688,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":20779.884,"end":20785.148,"text":"我們請大家注意會議的秩序好不好"},{"start":20789.588,"end":20813.06,"text":"不影響不要七嘴八舌好不好好請大家坐好包括李坤城委員蔡易瑜委員郭國文委員請坐好請坐好好不好請坐好"},{"start":20818.691,"end":20828.516,"text":"二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":20845.591,"end":20854.753,"text":"二、審查委員張綺楷委員"},{"start":20870.558,"end":20887.885,"text":"審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等11年度中央政府總預算案。二、審查委員楊�"},{"start":20889.196,"end":20891.057,"text":"報告主席張祺凱委員"},{"start":20923.736,"end":20938.864,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九"},{"start":20942.089,"end":20961.9,"text":"請尊重張琦委員我幫蔡議員收尾我幫蔡議員收尾不是發言的委員請請不要發出聲音我幫他收尾啦議議的題目是什麼我幫你收尾好來來來欸大小蘇秀親愛的那個選委會主委上台請你主委請你主委請你主委親愛的選委會主委"},{"start":20971.079,"end":20984.453,"text":"請大家安靜我現在有四分鐘我先幫蔡議員稍微忍受一下你本來要問什麼"},{"start":20995.638,"end":21004.622,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21016.601,"end":21044.477,"text":"好好來來大家輕鬆一點不要那麼嚴肅好不好我今天台灣民眾黨是來幫國民黨也是幫民進黨的我要兩個大的主題第一個最近有大罷免潮還有什麼精準罷免快開始了我們等一下談一下看能不能幫國民黨不要那麼多人被罷免等一下我也幫蔡英宇幫吳秉瑞你們有好幾位民進黨的立法委員提供一個合法的選罷法的修正我們現在看看今天台灣民眾黨在說什麼好不好"},{"start":21045.157,"end":21072.99,"text":"大評要不要引述 輕鬆一點 輕鬆一點 請坐好不好 請坐請坐好來 我先請教主委最近吶 有傳出來說有大罷免潮 或者所謂的精準罷免吼包括 台北市要罷免李彥秀台北市說要罷免李彥秀阿新北好像A&C也被列進去嘛吼台中還有三位這個年輕的廖偉祥他們站在中選會主委的立場跟專業 你怎麼看這個大罷免潮"},{"start":21074.857,"end":21092.962,"text":"在我們選務機關的立場上我們並不特別的去關心會不會發生罷免或者甚至於演變成所謂的大罷免潮因為這是朝野政黨之間的一個競逐或者是一個互動但是在選務機關的立場我們隨時做好各種選務的準備"},{"start":21102.226,"end":21127.782,"text":"懷疑有罷免的案子出來的時候我們必須要能夠依法能夠順利的來完成整個這個選務的程序接下來我們來幫這個蔡英宇還有吳秉瑞很多民進黨立委爭取一個權益啦知不知在罷免案的時候出現很多啊無效的這個連署甚至出現大量死亡的這個已經往生者喔"},{"start":21128.956,"end":21149.209,"text":"人民已經過世了,還出現在聯署名單上面。蔡議員跟吳明璽的提案是這樣,他說最近這個罷免案出現超過一千份以上的罷免。他說這是有心人士假冒個人的資料。"},{"start":21151.143,"end":21162.369,"text":"這個對整個連署罷免案是非常不公平而且要處理的你怎麼看這樣的一個提案外界所提出來的這個現象所報導的相關的數據這個都是經過我們對於連署的這個名冊查對的結果"},{"start":21170.347,"end":21174.15,"text":"審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":21193.482,"end":21211.494,"text":"被假冒在罷免案裡面被連署的不是只有往生者上千人更多的黑素是可能你跟我可能都被冒名了所以他們提了一個案子他們說以後在罷免案的時候要把你身份證上面的發照日期把它寫上去這是很老一個提案嘛 對不對"},{"start":21212.495,"end":21227.271,"text":"對於這個所謂的假冒啦或死人連署啦或者是代簽的等等這種不應該發生的現象在我們的選務機制裡面是可以可以排除的很辛苦吧如果像蔡議員他們提的他剛剛在那邊等這麼久我幫他爭取權利嘛"},{"start":21232.619,"end":21237.501,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．"},{"start":21251.707,"end":21253.63,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21267.188,"end":21291.723,"text":"至少張祺凱支持蔡英明這個提案不要撤回去不要撤回去這個案子是好的另外台灣民政黨會提一個案子我們在為了避免有人假冒所以我們附上身份證影印本我們會嚴格的來進行查對那至於要附身份證的影印本這個有很多的缺點跟顧慮我想這一點委員也都相當的清楚"},{"start":21293.584,"end":21318.033,"text":"主席您站起來希望透過今天的質詢大罷免潮特別是那種政治性的報復不要出現第二個我們既然要修選罷法怎麼樣避免去連署罷免的人被假冒包括已經往生者連民進黨的立委都這樣講了我們要徹底去解決要嘛就加上蔡議員他們當初提的把身份證的流水號加進去要嘛就用民進黨的身份證原本謝謝謝謝"},{"start":21324.974,"end":21349.77,"text":"謝謝接下來請鄭天才委員請保持會議的秩序請博士發言的委員請尊重對尊重主席的委員各位委員"},{"start":21351.266,"end":21377.552,"text":"主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委主委"},{"start":21380.014,"end":21404.737,"text":"然後後來你們去相關的檢視之後選委會檢視之後然後很多已經死亡的還去連署有沒有這樣的數據有這樣子的事情那我們也有一些統計的資料好這樣的一個情況的發生是不是只有一次很多次這是事實嗎"},{"start":21406.155,"end":21432.06,"text":"沒有錯吧?是的。那這樣的一個選罷法的修正或是相關的機制你們有什麼樣提出?它是可以被發現可以被提出的所以我們有所謂的查對的這個制度這個查對的制度呢也不斷的在精進之中啊因此大家才會知道說哦原來是會被偽造的原來有死人來連署的"},{"start":21433.88,"end":21435.805,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":21444.179,"end":21465.148,"text":"這個是不是必要的?他的利弊到底是怎麼樣?這就是一個抉擇。他的利弊,他最重要的一個缺點所在,就是增加了罷免人的提議人、連署人,增加他的麻煩,增加他的顧慮,影響到他罷免的連署的意願。"},{"start":21466.288,"end":21494.255,"text":"這個就是對於一個罷免權的限制我們認為這個是非常需要審慎的對 有這樣的一個情勢發生所以就要修正好 我就舉這個公民投票法是不是就剛剛你說的就是要附這些相關的證件公民投票法是不是這樣公民投票公民投票沒有啊不是 要不要附什麼相關的證件"},{"start":21495.376,"end":21521.466,"text":"公民投票你要連署你要提案都必須要付相當關注的證件所以這個就是一開始也沒有這樣做後來修法所以我們在因為現在剛剛講的我不太想講惡意罷免這樣的用詞既然有這樣公民投票沒有付身份證營保我現在是說"},{"start":21522.606,"end":21528.04,"text":"因為有很多的機制需要去檢討然後相關罷免的這幾年"},{"start":21530.666,"end":21552.091,"text":"有這樣的一個相關的情況不斷的發生然後呢因為過去啊大家會去尊重選舉的結果大家都會過去啊很多年以前所以我們的選辦法就不會去思考去修正那這段時間既然有產生這樣的一個相關很多的問題比如說"},{"start":21554.271,"end":21575.144,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":21580.48,"end":21600.817,"text":"一上任沒幾個月就開始連署所以這個機制都必須要去檢討所以我們現在就是去檢討這個機制這個依目前的機制是有三道防線可以來剔除這些虛偽的連署第一道就是我們人工的查對"},{"start":21601.698,"end":21602.319,"text":"二、審查互證機關互證系統的查對。第三、電子聯署"},{"start":21619.318,"end":21621.38,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21644.214,"end":21649.38,"text":"政院前委員改書面質詢楊瓊英委員"},{"start":21667.999,"end":21668.259,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":21684.104,"end":21699.891,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�"},{"start":21707.17,"end":21713.913,"text":"是增加的。我給你一個數字105年是84件到113年是107件它等於政府是27.38裁罰的你是105年是59件113年是增加13.56這個比例所以在這種情況之下可以說是以手機相關違規的案件躍升首位"},{"start":21734.102,"end":21736.764,"text":"首經違規要審所謂達到46件,佔113件裡頭的違規及107件中佔了幾乎快要一半,42.99,所以要怎麼樣讓民眾不去?"},{"start":21752.995,"end":21766.421,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":21780.888,"end":21787.792,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21803.2,"end":21823.126,"text":"在現場在投開票所的前面一開始要驗你的身份證的時候我們就會告訴你這個手機是不可以帶進去的我們在這個投票所的門口也都會有很明顯的一個標示目前你所回答的都是你目前正在做的"},{"start":21823.666,"end":21832.692,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21853.467,"end":21875.576,"text":"加強宣導所以回歸也就是在任何的事項如果預防的部分做得更完整你後續必須要加記的人力跟經費就可以減少就可以更精進更落實但是剛剛你有講一句話本席覺得很納悶你說如果在連署的時候加注身份證會助長詐騙你這個等號怎麼等號"},{"start":21879.673,"end":21903.759,"text":"因為現在這個詐騙集團他們不斷的推陳促新那我們也知道有很多詐騙集團他們是以取得一般民眾的個人資料作為很重要的一個手段你這句話會讓人家嚇一跳主管機關單位應該是要怎麼去防範要怎麼樣讓他們有造假"},{"start":21904.946,"end":21908.009,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2"},{"start":21926.948,"end":21927.309,"text":"審查委員林俊憲委員"},{"start":21961.029,"end":21964.672,"text":"謝謝主席,本席邀請我們中選會李主委。好,請李主委。主委,2021年,台中的陳柏惟委員被罷免。"},{"start":21981.028,"end":22002.958,"text":"這同時國民黨的主席朱立倫說這是民主的勝利你要知道陳柏惟被罷免成功但是贊成罷免的票也沒有大於他當選的票那現在國民黨又把這個改掉國民黨說罷免同意票如果大於當選票只有這少數民主國民黨還在扮 不一樣的標準了"},{"start":22006.246,"end":22024.881,"text":"我們的立委同仁,我們現在可以在這裡開會是因為我們當選立法委員。我們依法當選,我們是依照選拳罷法,公職人員選舉罷免法。那這個法律不是只有選舉法,它還包含罷免法。這是我們跟選民的約束。我們領記四檔,我們按照這樣來動算。我們選民包括你,按照現在這個法律來幫我們罷免。"},{"start":22030.285,"end":22051.812,"text":"那現在我們任期剛開始,我們就把這個罷免部分改掉,其實我們違背跟選民的約定,這定義我們自肥啦,他現在這樣定義不可能有罷免的啦,高薪文件會很困難的啦,這都是黃國昌反對的,總之他又遭遇了。當年啦,上一屆立委國民黨就是有提案要用身份證,黃國昌就在那裡哭了,在那裡哭了,說這樣不行啦。"},{"start":22055.181,"end":22066.285,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":22075.531,"end":22087.342,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":22097.338,"end":22107.273,"text":"政黨或政治人物對自己﹐對選民負責不能一開始先自罪﹐把這個罷免法律給改掉﹐這是獨立我們自己﹐這我要看完﹐對不對﹐"},{"start":22112.219,"end":22135.55,"text":"那接下來聽說是因為國民黨台中的立委怕被罷免了,我不曉得是不是這樣子啦,常常國民黨台中的黨民,國民黨台中的立委我們盲腦開啦,對不對,去被告罷,靠你靠有什麼好怕的,你現在把他蓋成這樣,根本就是完全要杜絕以後,人民不可能有任何一個罷免要成功啦,"},{"start":22137.113,"end":22146.818,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22167.284,"end":22182.536,"text":"所以現在只要動到這個選報法第一個我們立委在任期中我們依照這個選舉罷免法宣誓就職立委我們不可以大家發現在這個時候我們的任期還未到你敢改掉喔?對你啦你這樣一改很清楚"},{"start":22186.175,"end":22205.629,"text":"以後,如果按照過去的經驗、過去的投票率、過去的投票數,不可能有任何罷免案會通過。我們再提一個,什麼一年內,不能有罷免提案及連署,這邊要執行的。一年內不得有連署,那你怎麼去認定?你一年內什麼樣的連署以後認為有效以後認為沒有效?"},{"start":22214.369,"end":22233.825,"text":"也沒有很明晰的一個施行細則啦 我覺得這個法律很丑陋的啦所以我是覺得說 我們政府對自己要有證 第三名要有證我們不可以在這個時候 把人民的罷免權給沒收掉我們不會透過這個法律 自賠我們自己啦好 謝謝主委好 謝謝委員好 謝謝 接下來請張雅琳委員"},{"start":22245.669,"end":22246.15,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":22256.716,"end":22276.426,"text":"主委好,我想延續剛剛林俊憲委員講的,就是說其實照這樣子的提案啊,罷免票要超過被罷免者的當選票數的話,您認為是不是非常難,因為依據投票率來講嘛,這樣子是不是非常難有任何人民可以實施真正所謂的罷免權?是。您的看法也是?它的難度是相當高的。"},{"start":22276.906,"end":22279.427,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":22298.436,"end":22321.251,"text":"大法官釋字第499號的議旨一法委員應該遵守利益迴避原則當涉及自身利益的時候應該要研製下一屆才能夠適用而且呢在理由書裡面也明確的記載利益迴避乃是任何公職人員行使職權均應遵守之原則所以我想請教主委您認為現在國民黨的修法加了這個同意數要超過被罷免人數的時候"},{"start":22322.532,"end":22323.113,"text":"被罷免人當選票數的時候是否已經違反了職權應遵守的利益迴避原則?"},{"start":22329.67,"end":22352.529,"text":"我想這不只是所謂的迴避的問題其實它很重要的一點就是一個法制的問題這個選舉罷免的權利它的法制的規定應該要穩定不要因為一時之間的政黨之間的對立或者政治環境的一個波動"},{"start":22353.643,"end":22360.767,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":22369.591,"end":22375.835,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":22392.446,"end":22419.114,"text":"是因為你們所作所為召喚了我們的民眾要主動出來捍衛這個體制所以才行使了這個罷免同時呢現在的國民黨在預算會期裡面也不省我們國家的預算還在做這些所謂的政治鬥爭來操弄這些法案根本就是政治擺第一啦民生法案最後把百姓丟一邊才會造成今天民眾必須來去"},{"start":22421.135,"end":22425.759,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":22441.314,"end":22470.854,"text":"在2004年以來其實我們是有一條規定就是說我們區域立委直轄實驗室首長的選舉結果得票數最高與次高的候選人得票差距以及原住民立法委員選舉結果得票第三高和第四高的得票數差距有效票數千分之三以內時次高或得票數第四高之候選人得於投票日後七天內提出驗票但我想請教主委"},{"start":22472.634,"end":22492.999,"text":"從2004年以來,我們因為差距在有效票數千分之三以內提起的重新驗票有六次,有哪一次結果翻盤嗎?沒有翻盤的。對,從來沒有翻盤過。所以說如果今天我們將這個得票數差距在從千分之三修正為千分之十的時候,我覺得這就要問國民黨一個問題耶。"},{"start":22494.639,"end":22518.506,"text":"如果你有去現場監票的時候你就會知道其實各黨各派都會派人去現場監票而且呢今天只要有任何異議的話都會可以提出現場可以來提出暫停來重新來審視這個的票的結果那我只要再30秒就可以結束了好抱歉稍微再給我30秒今天國民黨今天如果我們要把它拉扯到千分之十的時候我們要多少公務人員在現場陪你們玩這件事情"},{"start":22519.506,"end":22520.007,"text":"二、審查委員林思敏書記長"},{"start":22557.719,"end":22567.864,"text":"主委好所以我想今天現在這個狀況是我們很樂見的就是大家的理性討論對於選罷法的修正到底它的合理性"},{"start":22569.011,"end":22591.846,"text":"在哪裡?現行的罷免制度是否公平合理?我想今天就藉由這個機會來跟主委好好地來做討論。我想我們在2016年修法以後公職人員的罷免門檻從這個降為同意票數達原選區票數人數總四分之一以上就通過門檻就是以25%作為我們的一個罷免的一個門檻"},{"start":22597.109,"end":22624.826,"text":"這樣一個低門檻的設計除了會變相的鼓動我們的罷免讓敗選的一方非常容易的操作罷免成為選舉的延長賽不利我們民主的發展且會耗費國家社會的資源修法後的罷免制度是不是會造成說罷免比當選容易的騎行制度?主委請回答"},{"start":22625.61,"end":22641.655,"text":"今天我們的案子討論的是要罷免的得票數必須要高於當選的得票數那並不是有關於罷免的門檻的討論罷免的門檻"},{"start":22644.856,"end":22668.961,"text":"四分之一到底是不是太高或者太低其實參考世界各國的這個立法例會有不同的看法這是另外一個議題但是針對罷免票要多於當選票一票這點我們認為是不宜做這樣子的修改我尊重你的回答其實我是想聽聽你看你對於我剛才那個問題您的看法"},{"start":22669.895,"end":22685.871,"text":"但世界各國也很多國家先進國家根本沒有罷免制度我們尊重人民選出來的代議士民意代表如果他真的非常不適任也讓他有四年的時間去做完我們下一任再把他淘汰"},{"start":22687.06,"end":22711.707,"text":"那麼我想我們來看看總統的罷免總統的罷免要經過立法院同意後提出然後經過我們中華民國自由地區的選舉人總額過半數的投票有效票數要過半數罷免才算通過但是我們看立委的罷免則是罷免同意票達原選區總額的四分之一就可以通過就我們剛才講的門檻"},{"start":22713.487,"end":22717.949,"text":"賴清泉總統當選投票率當選票數只有40%的支持度,他就當選了總統。但是要罷免總統卻要高達50%的支持才能夠通過。假設我們以60%的支持度當選立委,"},{"start":22736.678,"end":22746.012,"text":"他卻只要25%的支持就能罷免。所以兩者罷免的設計上是否失衡?主委你的看法?"},{"start":22748.12,"end":22767.115,"text":"有關於總統罷免的部分除了剛剛委員所提到的就是必須要二分之一在二分之一之外還必須要是立法院通過了所以他不只是門檻高他的過程程序也更加的嚴謹因為知識體大"},{"start":22769.557,"end":22780.401,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":22793.325,"end":22800.991,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":22821.788,"end":22823.23,"text":"主席黃秀芳委員主席"},{"start":22855.022,"end":22878.071,"text":"主委好主委我剛聽了幾位委員有特別提到就是說這個罷免可能25%就可以罷免那其實我知道所有的選民所有的民眾如果是你這個選區選出來的民意代表你只要好好的服務地方或者是你是一個立法委員你認真在國會好好的修法"},{"start":22881.252,"end":22884.033,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":22897.58,"end":22899.683,"text":"民意代表也許在地方做得太超過,或在議會或國會做得讓地方選民、民眾覺得非常不適任,才會提出罷免。"},{"start":22914.241,"end":22918.242,"text":"大法官四字499提到利益迴避原則立法委員增加自己報酬或待遇規定都要有利益迴避原則今天修公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":22940.53,"end":22945.512,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22956.569,"end":22970.443,"text":"關於大法官會議的解釋我們表示尊重但是就這兩個選罷法的修正案最重要的立場是我們基本上認為是不宜來修正的"},{"start":22970.848,"end":22998.638,"text":"是,所以其實就是讓我們的民眾可以有這個參政權選出代議士不論是在這個國會在議會其實你就是要這個替人民來發聲那當這個代議士已經沒有辦法好好的替民眾來發聲那以至於民眾發起這樣的一個罷免這樣的一個活動或這樣的一個權利我覺得說應該是要去保障的"},{"start":22999.158,"end":23020.898,"text":"其實這個問題之所以會今天演變成是立法院的一個修法的議案並不是因為對制度本身的一個檢討所提出來的而是因應所謂的罷免草所以這種一時的這種政治現象要來動搖我們的法治基礎我認為不宜了"},{"start":23021.198,"end":23044.886,"text":"是,其實在從今年2月1號這個新的第11屆的立法委員就職到現在這個也快一年的時間了那其實我相信很多地方的民眾會覺得這一屆的國會到現在是非常大家會覺得說好像每一天都是這樣吵吵鬧鬧那原本所立的法"},{"start":23047.087,"end":23073.101,"text":"國民黨民眾黨加起來是多數推翻原本所立的法。原本立的法已經可以好好的去執行了。他又要去立一個可能未來是會變成一個鳥籠的一個罷免。所以在這邊我們也希望這個國民黨跟民眾黨所有民眾選你出來當民意代表你在國會應該是要好好的替人民來發聲"},{"start":23075.563,"end":23094.674,"text":"讓這個立法院可以好好來運作而不是國會擴權那也不是搶錢又搶權所以我們在這邊是不是也可以再請教我們的這個主委就是未來如果說罷免又要提供這個身份證這個身份證件的話其實很多民眾會很擔心"},{"start":23096.115,"end":23117.508,"text":"因為現在的詐騙確實是非常的猖獗那如果一旦還要要求提供這個身份證件的話其實會讓民眾如果即使有這個罷免的話他也會擔心要把這個身份證件交出去所以我不知道說這個主委你怎麼認為那是會影響到人民的這個意願參與的意願謝謝接下來請許智傑委員"},{"start":23125.814,"end":23145.184,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":23156.4,"end":23159.703,"text":"主席大家好,我們請主委。好,請立主委。主委好,我想罷免是人民的權利,這個主委應該都相當的能夠接受。那現在其實在鳳山我們有一個"},{"start":23178.848,"end":23184.793,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":23199.469,"end":23219.99,"text":"審法法修改那因為這一屆的立委都是屬於自己修改然後自己適用這樣子適合嗎?是不是應該要延到下一屆就這一屆的法我們如果經這一次修法成功的話我們立委本身都是利害慣性人所以是不是應該要延到下一屆才適用"},{"start":23221.133,"end":23243.375,"text":"有關於利益迴避的問題這個司法院大法官已經有過解釋我們表示尊重但是就這個選罷法的修改的議題的部分基本上中選會是認為不宜在這個時候去更動對所以說這一次如果假設啦國民黨強行過關通過以後是不是應該下一屆才適用"},{"start":23244.312,"end":23264.594,"text":"這我們尊重大法官會議的解釋所以我想這個部分請主委跟大法官我想這個是應該是一個公平公正的一個開放的一個場合的會議的法案那如果真的已經通過以後我希望說我們立法院大家可以一致下一次才適用我想這個"},{"start":23266.397,"end":23284.464,"text":"歷害關係人本來就應該迴避不應該就自己這一屆然後去修改然後這一屆就試用所以這個不恰當所以我想希望說大家可以認同那再就是說國民黨兩個版本一個就是提出身份證影音本這個我們也很多同事都問過了我們也希望說其實"},{"start":23285.844,"end":23312.907,"text":"審訊人員本人民不太喜歡把它交出交給陌生人或是在連署這個把交出來其實真的是有洩漏個資的問題啦所以希望國民黨可以好好的思考很多人民他不願意那你這樣子不願意提出這個法基本上他就會提高這個罷免的門檻然後就變成鳥籠的罷免所以這個部分我希望說大家可以三思再來就是國民黨提出另外一個版本就是罷免門檻"},{"start":23315.117,"end":23338.942,"text":"高於當選票,其實這個坦白講真的是不合理啦,因為每一次的選舉狀況都不一樣。所以呢,國民黨想要提高門檻坦白講我並不是很反對,但是呢提高門檻要有一個限度啦,其實在當時黃捷還有陳柏惟還有王浩宇都被,黃捷沒有罷免成功,那個"},{"start":23341.766,"end":23347.195,"text":"陳柏惟跟王浩宇被罷免成功的時候那個時候其實我也曾經提過"},{"start":23351.83,"end":23372.305,"text":"三分之一提高罷免門檻我們並不是說100%反對但是你要恰當要適當而不是高到說又變成一個鳥籠的罷免所以我想這個部分國民黨要修改的時候也可以思考一下所以我嚴重的聲明請國民黨不要踐踏民主環球運動不要設鳥籠公投前面這幾個罷免參考名單"},{"start":23374.787,"end":23378.091,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":23393.277,"end":23411.732,"text":"總而言之我們希望說這一次的罷免下一屆才適用那這一次的國民黨訂的門檻可以考慮延就是把它降低門檻不要故意這樣子變成鳥籠公投這是我的訴求希望指揮可以幫忙一起維護我們選民罷免的權利謝謝"},{"start":23420.321,"end":23431.809,"text":"二、審查委員陳秀寶委員"},{"start":23457.201,"end":23459.142,"text":"謝主席 先請內政部長好 請劉部長"},{"start":23470.219,"end":23476.044,"text":"委員好部長好部長內政部近日有預告村里長慰勞金之急以及這個表揚辦法草案就是將發給任滿六屆而且年滿65歲的這個村里長有30萬的慰問金"},{"start":23485.771,"end":23505.744,"text":"但是本席稍微了解過似乎內政部之前是針對這個預算的編任的部分是跟縣市政府地方政府做溝通取得共識但是地方的里長都反映說也建議本席一定要跟內政部反映說你們內政部要跟全國的村里長來溝通座談針對這個借數以及這個未落金的這個金額這個合理性來做討論並且要聽取全國村里長的意見"},{"start":23514.45,"end":23534.403,"text":"所以這邊本席希望說內政部這邊可以考量是不是跟全國的村里長來進行溝通好謝謝委員的提醒我們也有委員有提到說有全國村里長的聯誼會他們要來找我那另外一個就是說我們所謂的預告是預告完成但是還沒公告那表示說還要再收集意見對還是有溝通的這個空間"},{"start":23536.504,"end":23548.677,"text":"對,很多委員有提到不同的看法跟說法那我們根據委員的意見因為這個事關村里長這個權益啦是希望說能夠廣納所有大家的意見然後之後才做定案沒問題謝謝部長謝謝那請主委好,請李主委好,請部長回座"},{"start":23560.492,"end":23567.154,"text":"委員好主委好主委請問您認為高罷免門檻已經有凝聚社會共識了嗎高罷免門檻我現在不知道它的所謂高是高到什麼樣的程度但是至少現在的這個標準是已經有相當的基礎主委您認為說將同意票數需要超過被罷免人當選票數這樣子會不會影響人民的這個罷免權"},{"start":23588.41,"end":23591.252,"text":"主委您認為本屆修法本屆就適用有沒有自肥的疑慮?"},{"start":23605.848,"end":23609.21,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":23625.041,"end":23641.932,"text":"藍白兩黨在立法院無止盡的擴權的時候人民卻沒有辦法來限縮這些自肥立委的權力那本席本身自己也是立委我要說明的是說提高罷免門檻就是缺乏全民共識用強度關山的方式來處理就是傷害民主自由接下來我想請教主委請問在大選的這個投票率跟罷免的投票率會相同嗎?通常這個選舉的投票率會高一點"},{"start":23654.338,"end":23677.855,"text":"主委您認為說在罷免的投票中人民所面對的心理壓力跟成本是不是跟大選不相同?心理壓力跟成本這個我現在不大了解其實主委您剛好提到其實大選的投票率平均大概是七成但是罷免的投票率平均是四成再來在我們台灣傳統這個選舉氛圍之下其實要人民站出來罷免"},{"start":23681.698,"end":23684.561,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":23697.532,"end":23709.18,"text":"國民黨不要說少數否決多數其實討論的基礎根本就不同我們不能用這樣子的言論來欺騙人民民眾的眼睛很雪亮那民眾的理智也會判斷選舉其實可以視為一種帝爵契約的概念那當人民對於選舉出來的民選公職表現不滿意"},{"start":23715.965,"end":23737.995,"text":"王認為說他自身的這個利益權益有受到衝突的時候就會利用罷免來做一個折衷挽回的方式這是憲法賦予人民的權利所以提高罷免門檻這件事情本來就不可以作為政治喊價是應該經過詳細的規劃跟充分的討論的主委您認為呢?是的謝謝好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝請林怡瑾委員"},{"start":23755.576,"end":23776.72,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":23784.403,"end":23806.338,"text":"主席,謝謝。我會議詢問,不好意思,議員稍後一下。因為今天……兩分鐘好不好?兩分鐘。我們樓上司法法制的會議詢問至少是三分鐘。所以我第一個覺得我要會議詢問的是,連會議詢問的時間在內政委員會都比別人短。連重要的議案討論的時間,今天本委員會只有五分鐘。"},{"start":23807.919,"end":23831.685,"text":"非委員會只有四分鐘,這麼短的時間,怎麼樣,好,六跟四,不管六分鐘跟四分鐘都是沒有辦法好好實質討論任何攸關人民權利的民主議案的。那我現在我就跟主席報告,我在這裡會議許問,在場的有兩位委員坐在地上,我們現場都還有座位啊。"},{"start":23833.103,"end":23859.169,"text":"這就是我請主席要維持會議的秩序我站在這裡他們四個眼睛這樣朝著我看有很大的壓力啊所以請主席是不是可以制止一下是不是可以制止一下維持一下會議的秩序而且我相信徐委員是這麼資深的委員不要干擾我的會議許願主席他干擾我的時間我要再增加時間哦"},{"start":23860.709,"end":23887.094,"text":"他干擾我的發言我還要再增加時間喔!他增加我的他干擾我的時間他干擾我的時間我要增加時間喔主席!會議詢問也是非常重要本席有本席的權利徐政委是非常資深的委員我相信他主持議事一定很有經驗不需要在場有這種糾察隊在這裡"},{"start":23890.222,"end":23902.593,"text":"在這裡管制然後盯著別的委員發言就對於每一位發言委員都是非常很大的壓力嘛這彼此尊重嘛而且我要再次的要求內政委員會選罷法攸關原名的權利"},{"start":23906.056,"end":23923.441,"text":"我們今天樓上司法在討論年改法案攸關世代正義吳宗憲交委給我們本委員的時間至少是八分鐘因為剛剛徐曉新干擾我的發言我爭取還要再多發言他干擾我超過一分鐘主席"},{"start":23924.581,"end":23945.169,"text":"所以說重要的攸關國家重要的事項只給我為委員會我現在在準備我等一下質詢我都不知道四分鐘我開場白就沒有了所以要爭取這關我的事啊徐曉新委員你不重視你的發言我重視我能夠發言的每一次機會"},{"start":23947.523,"end":23974.559,"text":"所以主席是不是我要求我們在場有很多內政委員我希望能夠要求為我們對於這個議案長期以來沒有機會參與發言的委員有更長的時間來發來進行發言的一個完整性好嗎這是我的會議詢問那請主席可以做財事嗎這是我的會議詢問那是不是主席可以做財事呢"},{"start":23975.74,"end":23994.363,"text":"是否主席可以做裁示我正要講好不好我在這等候您的裁示今天本席已經在早上說明了當然你們可能在別的委員會都沒有聽到我可以再說明一次我們今天的這個會議質詢時間本委員會是5加1外委員會是4分鐘這在過去我們"},{"start":24004.065,"end":24014.188,"text":"第十一屆委員會也是有慣例的所以最重要就是我們看到今天的簽報要質詢的委員非常多所以我們要尊重每一個委員"},{"start":24019.87,"end":24032.936,"text":"尊重每一個委員的發言,所以這個部分我們已經宣告了,請您尊重,我也請您尊重,也請您能夠遵守立法院的議事程序。那剛剛您一直講,底下你們的委員也一直講,我想4分鐘是沒有辦法好好討論要沒收人民權利的議案。"},{"start":24046.607,"end":24053.931,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":24066.383,"end":24079.949,"text":"謝謝主席歡迎詢問就是我剛剛到這個司法法制委員會我去詢問這個年金改革然後呢我是外委員會的他是給我四分鐘一樣跟內政一樣四分鐘但是呢我講完超過四分鐘之後"},{"start":24081.069,"end":24107.448,"text":"這個吳宗憲他是召委他就站起來但是他沒有消音耶他站起來因為他知道我講到一半他就是聽我講講講然後他就站在那邊他也沒有就是說李昆城你講完了你要下去了後面有很多人在排沒有他就聽我講完因為年金改革這個東西很重要就像我們今天討論這個選罷法也很重要啊也很關鍵啊所以才會有六十幾個人登記發言表示說大家都很重視很關心這個選罷法"},{"start":24108.689,"end":24108.909,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":24132.456,"end":24140.463,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":24148.19,"end":24168.652,"text":"所以我是希望說是不是我們這個內政委員會也能夠比照一下這個我們司法法治委員會因為你不論在討論這個年金的改革的相關的法案或是來討論這個選罷法相關的議題大家都很重視嘛所以才會有超過六十幾個人在登記但是你看我等一下輪到我"},{"start":24169.813,"end":24172.814,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案。"},{"start":24191.781,"end":24195.324,"text":"第二位會議詢問也是沒有搞清楚狀況,浪費我們的時間。我現在來回覆。"},{"start":24208.355,"end":24228.825,"text":"有講話的時候可以讓主席講話嗎?你不能對我做人身攻擊啊!我九點我就坐在這邊了啊!所以剛剛你四分鐘我們大家就有不同的意見了啊!你怎麼可以說我搞不清楚狀況?你不能對我做人身攻擊啊!對不對?好,那我現在說明。我說明好不好?來來來,我說明我說明。"},{"start":24232.203,"end":24234.645,"text":"二、審查委員蔡毅與委員的質詢整個過程。"},{"start":24251.436,"end":24274.944,"text":"對,你去看嘛,你可以去看。我沒有,我也是蔡議員時間到,我讓他講一下,我才站起來。站起來,我站了兩三分鐘,而且我制止很多次。很多次,他還是繼續不甩主席,我才消音的。所以現在,所以現在如果,如果你們,不是,"},{"start":24280.086,"end":24304.233,"text":"所以他總共4分鐘他已經講了7分43秒所以在這種情形下如果民進黨團還有民進黨的委員們我們今天的開會你們硬是要不遵守立法院的議事規則以及所有發言委員的權利的話那你們今天只是要求多一些發言時間而已啊"},{"start":24307.734,"end":24319.664,"text":"所以你合理的爭取但我也我主席我也已經公告宣告了請你們遵守議事程序可以嗎?如果要繼續這樣那我們是不是要休息?是不是要休息你們要協商嗎?不是"},{"start":24337.406,"end":24346.931,"text":"所以我們請全國的民眾看一個議事程序。好,我們張昭偉請我休息,會議休息。"},{"start":24366.951,"end":24373.744,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":24376.746,"end":24404.505,"text":"二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案�"},{"start":24406.246,"end":24408.666,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":25531.089,"end":25551.713,"text":"阿咩啦?不是啦,剛才那講啊,講什麼幾分鐘幾分鐘,阿我這要有條啦,我拜託。喔,好在有人給我正確時間捏,阿不然齁,我先去給齁,我先去給阿姨齁,我先這樣,先吞下來,我先一定,很不敢這樣。好在有人給我公佈正確答案。來,主席。"},{"start":25700.503,"end":25701.063,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文"},{"start":26175.845,"end":26188.814,"text":"好,我們繼續開會在開會一開始本席先在這邊做個說明第一個我相信在座所有的立法委員都知道"},{"start":26189.844,"end":26218.91,"text":"每個委員會的開會的時間、質詢的時間這都是召委的職責跟權力所以我在早上就已經宣告了而且在早上民進黨的委員也已經提出異議我也說明了在立法院我們第11屆的第一會期第22次的會議是吳啟明召委主持的會議"},{"start":26220.489,"end":26235.715,"text":"打詐的法案難道不是重要法案嗎?本性要在這邊說,其實每個委員會的討論的都是重要的法案。當然今天的選罷法我也不否認,非常重要。"},{"start":26236.873,"end":26260.186,"text":"打詐也很重要,但是那個時候是本委員會4加1,外委員會4分鐘。所以每個召委有他的考量,本席在早上也特別說明了,是因為知道也了解今天有很多委員希望發言,所以我們尊重也這個希望讓維持每個委員質詢的這個權利。"},{"start":26263.45,"end":26282.5,"text":"所以我們到了下午不可能再更改我們的這個質詢的時間這第一個那所以是不是要尊重剛剛你們在抗議說你們講話的時候底下有人講話實際上我為什麼沒有出面阻止因為"},{"start":26283.701,"end":26303.54,"text":"抗議的政黨委員,你們自己也常常這樣,我都尊重大家,我當主席我盡可能的尊重所有我們立法院的我們各位委員同事。那當然有一些比較先進的委員對有些議事規則不了解,本席也予以尊重。那我們希望"},{"start":26304.713,"end":26308.458,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":26321.315,"end":26329.789,"text":"蔡易瑜委員會議詢問完我們就讓所有今天想質詢的所有委員我們讓他們能夠盡快的來質詢"},{"start":26338.018,"end":26338.238,"text":"張宏祿召委"},{"start":26362.386,"end":26389.708,"text":"如果我們的協調大家不照規則,我們就繼續進行質詢了。請林一錦委員。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息。若說他們說話不算話,那我們繼續休息"},{"start":26392.216,"end":26411.102,"text":"民進黨的所有的委員不尊重你們內政委員會的張宏祿張宏祿召委新的我問個會議詢問一下本席沒有請你發言請你尊重一下本席沒有請你發言請你尊重"},{"start":26421.028,"end":26437.399,"text":"對阿,不要欺負,你們也不要欺負新晉的委員。所以,我們就請全國民眾看齁,這個民進黨的委員在這個開會的時候要進行這樣的一個舉行。張宏祿召委,張宏祿召委。"},{"start":26450.903,"end":26468.351,"text":"現在的程序剛剛協調好的如果剛剛協調好的不算數那我們就我們就繼續休息協商繼續協調我聽你的"},{"start":26485.148,"end":26502.172,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26508.712,"end":26518.138,"text":"所以所以現在現在民進黨完全不按照我們協商的結果那我們繼續繼續休息協調好協商好期休息"},{"start":26775.816,"end":26776.847,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文"},{"start":27835.287,"end":27837.531,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草"},{"start":28844.708,"end":28845.845,"text":"審查委員楊曜等12年度中央政府總預算案。"},{"start":29394.417,"end":29395.845,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文"},{"start":29495.933,"end":29498.78,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草"},{"start":30056.598,"end":30078.386,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會本席在這邊要特別的說明這個選罷法的這個排案在這個今天之前已經排過三次會議三次會議都被民進黨呢這個霸占主席台沒有辦法開會那今天"},{"start":30079.571,"end":30092.463,"text":"第四次排案,我們終於可以開會。但是呢,很遺憾的,我們今天一整天的會議過程呢,民進黨不斷地用程序發言、會議詢問來造成冗長的發言,早上也有。"},{"start":30100.971,"end":30126.395,"text":"所以最重要的就是下午的會議詢問其實早上都已經反應過了那所以這樣子變相的癱瘓意識這不是大家樂見的所以本席在這裡希望我們現在就是好好的讓有登記發言的委員來質詢我們這個停止所有的會議"},{"start":30130.896,"end":30150.575,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":30167.297,"end":30183.549,"text":"請大家尊重這個質詢的委員,請林一景委員。好,謝謝主席。請林一景委員。林一景委員。好,謝謝主席。好,請稍長計時。請李主委。"},{"start":30197.156,"end":30197.937,"text":"有請李主委"},{"start":30213.066,"end":30240.056,"text":"我想這一屆國民黨跟民眾黨藍白聯手造成最大的民主危機不只把自己立委的權力擴大還向人民盜竊原有的權力全台灣人民都知道罷免權是憲法賦予人民的基本參政權如果沒有經過充分的討論就要來修法剝奪限制民權的行使這是樂觀不可"},{"start":30241.636,"end":30264.534,"text":"那當然今天有這樣的詢答我們也期待還有充分的公聽來對於選罷法要修法有更充分的討論那我想這個今天要提到的是說從國眾兩黨從整肅議席的國會擴權二法到今天的取消人民的罷免權這個脈絡一脈相承其實簡單可是又暴力那兩白兩黨因為民主"},{"start":30270.865,"end":30289.616,"text":"二、成為國會的多數可是卻反過頭要威脅台灣人引以為傲的民主體制來威脅他取消罷免所以我想大家不要看表面上國民黨好像就是在推動提高罷免門檻實際上我看今天早上的發言袖手旁觀的民眾黨也是閹割憲法賦權剝奪人民參政權的幫助犯"},{"start":30300.362,"end":30304.344,"text":"我當然很好奇的是說到底是怎麼樣的一群人一天到晚在害怕罷免那連謝國良這樣的縣市長施政滿意度調查全國排名倒數第二名的在現行制度下都可以沒被罷免掉那所以我覺得"},{"start":30318.789,"end":30342.667,"text":"其實現行的罷免已經非常的周延了那實在很遺憾那我們一次又一次把這個國家資源耗費在這種所謂讓學者專家或者整體社會都還沒有構思的這種政治性的法案所以我今天即便這樣的詢答還是對這樣子的修法感到非常的遺憾那我想藍白聯手搞出來這個國會擴權二法這種拼裝車才在憲法法庭被判為違憲"},{"start":30348.491,"end":30370.632,"text":"現在又要用另一個角度來擴大自己的權利。我想要求人民如果要想罷免,就要提供身份證、銀本。要求人民如果想罷免,同意罷免票數,就必須高於當選票數。這種提高罷免門檻的雙管齊下,其實真的就是沒收了人民的罷免權。我想現在國民黨,"},{"start":30374.724,"end":30396.086,"text":"同意罷免票數要高於當選票數所以我想要請教是說當初選舉進行投票的那群人和罷免投票的那群人誰能保證是同一群人那從選舉投票到罷免投票至少要經過一年半的時間那這一年半的時間人事物難道不會有變化嗎那至少"},{"start":30397.458,"end":30411.746,"text":"局局跟罷免那投票的目的本質性質其實完全不同而且通常全國性的這個選舉的投票率也高於罷免案的投票率所以如果再一次用金融市長謝國良來講當時2022金融市長選舉的投票率是60.16%"},{"start":30417.729,"end":30432.839,"text":"罷免謝國良的投票率也只有50.44%差了10%左右這兩種基礎完全不同的數字硬要擺在一起混為一談作為罷免是否通過的依據我還想請教朱偉思你認為這樣的依據是合理的嗎?"},{"start":30433.799,"end":30458.616,"text":"這也是中選會一直做的說明也就是說在投票的時候選舉投票的時候他跟在罷免投票的時候時空環境已經有所改變民意是流動的罷免就是要再一次的來審視再一次來做確認所以不應該用舊的民意要來框住新的民意這樣子是說不過去的"},{"start":30459.756,"end":30469.398,"text":"主委,期待在凝聚社會共識,我們再來審議這個法案,謝謝。好,謝謝林益錦委員。接下來請林淑芬委員。好,謝謝。我們今天要討論這個"},{"start":30486.209,"end":30509.304,"text":"國民黨委員所提的有效同意票數需要超過被罷免人數當選的得票數才算通過的內容就藉由金明聯副秘書長的說法是這樣子說的就是說這個提案中國國民黨就正式向台灣人民宣告從此以後台灣人就沒有罷免的可能了"},{"start":30509.804,"end":30525.938,"text":"我們把近年三期有關立法委員被罷免的數據調出來向大家報告說明從數據上我們明顯的可以看到罷免時的投票率跟選舉時的投票率大相徑庭兩者是不一樣的母數這個邏輯很好理解"},{"start":30528.32,"end":30530.701,"text":"因為投票、選舉是全國一起來的競選活動,多方的候選人一起來表達訴求,然後多方的動員、多方的資源都投入,所以投票率自然會很高。但是罷免選舉、罷免投票往往只有發起方在動員,"},{"start":30548.025,"end":30572.518,"text":"一方動員的結果當然是投票率相對的比較低所以這個金銘典的副秘書長繼續說我們可以看得到2016年新北市第二選區黃國昌當選的時候投票率63%但是罷免的時候投票率只有27%過去投票率大概都可以在六成以上甚至達到八成比如說2020或2024年的選舉台中市第二選區、台北市第五選區"},{"start":30577.781,"end":30602.208,"text":"這個都是2020年的數據兩個選區都將近有八成的選舉的時候有八成的投票率但是後來被這個提出罷免時的投票率最多最多就是五成最緊繃就是五成所以這是兩個完全不同計算基礎的母數你要來比較同意票數要大於原本的被當選的票數這是完全不可能的"},{"start":30602.748,"end":30603.868,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":30620.433,"end":30633.602,"text":"不優先的審查復國利民的民生法案： 把政治性的法案排在第一位：強行通過了違憲的擴權法案：而現在為了保護立法委員自己的權位避免被罷免急著要修選罷法提高罷免的難度我們剛才講的讓罷免變成不可能可是我們覺得在野黨你提這個法案的時候你要先回頭想一想自己為什麼"},{"start":30646.43,"end":30659.218,"text":"需要這麼做不就是因為你們所修的提案的法律或是你們在立法院的作為如果真的是跟人民跟真正的民意站在一起還需要怕被罷免嗎?你們這樣子不顧民生只想擴權政治鬥爭才會害怕被罷免代表站在民意的對立面才會害怕被罷免嗎?"},{"start":30670.285,"end":30676.147,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":30693.939,"end":30706.338,"text":"當時是民進黨執政2019年行政院為了防度造假連署當時也曾經提議要修正公投法連署的時候要附身份證影本"},{"start":30708.833,"end":30722.505,"text":"當時張宏祿、趙薇在排審的時候國民黨的立委總召江啟臣帶領凌晨五點一樣破窗進入會議室霸占主席台在會議室門鎖"},{"start":30723.646,"end":30742.452,"text":"也一樣灌入三秒焦等方式強力杯葛而當時國民黨的主席江啟臣現在的立法院副院長當時批民進黨所提的修法案是侵害隱私提高聯署難度江啟臣國民黨的訴求說鐵籠公投限縮公民權開民主倒車而當時呢民進黨雖然未有國會多數面對外界的反彈沒有通過公"},{"start":30753.516,"end":30765.239,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":30785.014,"end":30788.797,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":30793.856,"end":30822.515,"text":"避免造假的連署負身份證銀本為什麼只修選罷法而沒有修到公投法呢?所以今天在這裡我們講說光是利益迴避的這個原則即便你們要修法也應該是從下一屆再實施沒有人說怕自己被罷免現在馬上修法這一屆就馬上適用大家都知道大法官釋字499號說這個是明顯的沒有利益迴避這是自肥法案"},{"start":30824.036,"end":30827.538,"text":"賴慧媛議員賴慧媛議員賴慧媛議員"},{"start":30858.995,"end":30877.621,"text":"主委我想從早上到現在我們探討了很多在提案修選罷法的各種每個委員的一個條法裡頭那特別我拿出徐以珍委員等39人在5月他提的一個修改的一個選罷法"},{"start":30881.622,"end":30907.112,"text":"維滿一年不得罷免、罷免同意人數如果大於當選的票數。在這個草案裡沒有實施的日期,是不是在沒有實施的日期裡,我相信很多委員都跟你一起共同探討過,如果像這樣子主委,沒有註明施行的日期,會不會違反"},{"start":30908.593,"end":30920.149,"text":"大法官他的一個499號的一個解釋,解釋中禁止立法,就是立法者自毀,那這一個你可以怎麼樣的做一個說明?"},{"start":30921.938,"end":30941.783,"text":"如果認為這樣的修法是有問題的不應該把這個修法你修過然後把問題留到下一屆了所以我們的立場是基本上認為所謂的利益迴避這是另外一個問題我們不予置評"},{"start":30942.483,"end":30943.503,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":30955.899,"end":30973.164,"text":"主委那這個有沒有自毀的一個嫌疑呢那我就是從這個這一屆開始在你就是站在這個華麗的一個角度上來講吧報告委員這點我就沒有評論我著重的這個重點是在於它修法是不適當的"},{"start":30975.074,"end":30994.944,"text":"對,所以這個你也認為就是說修法的一個不適當。好,那主委我想就是說再跟你共同的一個探討從1994年到2016年期間幾乎沒有任何大型的一個罷免案。那這個通過罷免的門檻就是因為我們在1994年修法"},{"start":30998.063,"end":31002.526,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31024.779,"end":31037.824,"text":"1994年韓國瑜、洪秀柱等五案通過第二階段連署成案。1994年10月份修法限制罷免不得綁選舉。1994年11月27日五案精英位投票人數未過半,失敗。"},{"start":31047.907,"end":31062.052,"text":"那現在2024年國民黨又玩了一次又重來那主委你認為就是今天國民黨的修法的版本假設通過了以後是不是就是在沒收人民的罷免權"},{"start":31063.612,"end":31086.424,"text":"對於人民罷免權是一種限制在既有的條件規定之外另外加上的這個限制我們認為站在憲法保障公民參政權的立場上這個是要非常非常的慎重主委如果這個選罷法就是沒說人民的一個罷免權這個有沒有違憲"},{"start":31090.679,"end":31114.423,"text":"我不方便去評論是否違憲的問題至於修法到底適不適當我們站在法律適用機關的立場上我們必須有責任來跟委員會做說明所以主委顯然你是一個比較保守你這個說法會偏向於比較保守好謝謝主席也謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝賴會員委員接下來請王逸川委員"},{"start":31121.666,"end":31133.952,"text":"在王委員質詢前﹗先給你講﹗先給你講﹗先給你講﹗"},{"start":31152.659,"end":31164.601,"text":"主席今天在做這個選報要罷免的這個李主委來請我請教一下今天如果要罷免一個人像我今天想要擺一張來罷免葉元智就對了"},{"start":31170.196,"end":31173.057,"text":"二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31195.64,"end":31200.623,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．"},{"start":31215.76,"end":31217.422,"text":"第一階段成案喔,第一階段成案。啊,之後,他就放了。"},{"start":31243.362,"end":31247.026,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案"},{"start":31261.618,"end":31280.853,"text":"這也是我們擔心的啦,因為現在政府對這個詐騙集團的這個宣導是非常廣泛的一般老百姓都深入腦海裡面,所以說對個人資料的這個保護呢,大家都很在意所以喔,我要講,所以這到時候喔,這白蘭的喔,他們可能就會衝一招"},{"start":31283.014,"end":31286.396,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31302.728,"end":31316.901,"text":"我現在回答的這個狀況是就一般的法制一般的法制面至於是不是特定的特定的這個人選這個我是沒有辦法評論我再問你一個問題現在二零二六官司長選舉中個人可以選官長"},{"start":31325.697,"end":31343.969,"text":"審計候選人資格的審查,只要他符合我們選罷法的要件的話,包括他必須要是10年以上,有據所示。阿10年以上,中國人啊?中國人?可以算嗎?他沒有中國國籍喔!他沒有中國國籍喔!他沒有放棄喔!"},{"start":31350.397,"end":31350.698,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":31364.588,"end":31369.131,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":31380.419,"end":31393.545,"text":"有牽涉到這個國籍法的部分這不在我們的管轄範圍之內所以我在說的是說好選人的條件好選人的條件我們審查只要他如果是中華民國的國民你說中國人中國人在台灣已經有經過十年了涉及經過十年了不是啦他就沒放棄中國籍啦注意他沒放棄啦"},{"start":31405.051,"end":31407.454,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31422.91,"end":31426.753,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":31447.29,"end":31448.391,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具"},{"start":31476.466,"end":31491.574,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":31509.753,"end":31509.933,"text":"主席"},{"start":31522.189,"end":31537.681,"text":"主委午安,辛苦了一整天下午安,大家辛苦本期在這邊首先也要讓全國的民眾知道就是說中華民國的憲法就是有明文的規定人民就是有選舉罷免、創制及覆決之權罷免權是憲法明定的參政權"},{"start":31543.846,"end":31545.169,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31557.149,"end":31559.19,"text":"在過去進行罷免的連署階段所設立的門檻是非常高,也被百姓稱為鳥籠罷免。"},{"start":31575.101,"end":31580.704,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":31599.615,"end":31616.285,"text":"雙重的二分之一的一個規定就是這個投票數要超過選舉人數50%以及同意罷免的票數要超過有效票數二分之一就是我們所稱的雙二一的這樣的一個制度把它就是修正為同意票數超過選舉人數25%還有同意票超過不同意票這個罷免案就成立嘛"},{"start":31624.07,"end":31627.455,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":31641.133,"end":31664.119,"text":"這個我就沒有辦法做揣測只要他是符合條件他有權利來行事我們知道我們是民主的國家我們就是用民主的選舉的制度選出民意代表就是從中央一直到地方各級的民意代表那民意代表的職責是做什麼呢就是所謂的代議士就是替民眾替百姓來表達這個民意"},{"start":31666.82,"end":31674.925,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草"},{"start":31693.496,"end":31717.35,"text":"所以如果說被人民選出來的民意代表他沒有違背民意他的言行操守不要太離譜那都是能夠符合民眾的期待的話你想民眾會這樣子無緣無故提出罷免案嗎我想百姓也沒說這樣吃飽贏贏沒事情就是隨便去搞一個罷免案吧"},{"start":31719.011,"end":31721.973,"text":"因為我們經過第一階段第二階段都有這樣子的一個連署的一個門檻也不是那麼容易的嘛對不對所以今天國民黨他們要提出說要這個同意罷免的人數要高於就是他的當選的一個票數這樣子的一個門檻實際上就是為這個選罷法設下更高的一個門檻"},{"start":31742.327,"end":31750.977,"text":"當年陳柏惟被罷免時,同意票數高於不同意票數,同意票數低於當選票數,朱立倫說這是民主的勝利。"},{"start":31761.43,"end":31778.725,"text":"國民黨的主席喊說這是民主的勝利那今天國民黨再來提出說罷免案的成立要這個同意票數一定要高於他的當選票數這不是在打他們主席的臉嗎所以我希望我們的國民黨還有民眾黨的立委我們還是好好的就是"},{"start":31782.367,"end":31783.428,"text":"二、審查委員吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":31821.348,"end":31845.915,"text":"主席麻煩請內政部劉部長好請劉部長吳元豪部長我想跟你請教本來我是有做這個選罷法這個修正的提案那後來我自動測案了我會測案的最主要原因就是因為我被國民黨污衊國民黨說我增加這個嚴肅的難度"},{"start":31848.915,"end":31863.508,"text":"我增加罷免的難度,因為我認為這是誣衊,所以我撤案。為什麼呢?因為我的提案是要求說要加上身份證的發證日期。"},{"start":31865.489,"end":31888.7,"text":"不是做身份證的引印本因為我們每一個人手上的身份證都有一個發證日期那這個發證日期在戶籍就是戶證訴所裡面對你這個身份證的發證都有一個登記過去無論是選罷的連署或是公投的連署都有很多所謂幽靈連署說得不像是西人也在連署"},{"start":31889.96,"end":31916.203,"text":"他那個案那麼多甚至高達幾萬人沒辦法核對也沒辦法把這些做假的人移送法辦所以如何讓連署是一個事實的連署這個在我認為是一個重要的課題因為就算我們要罷免我們要公投都是必須是真實有這麼多人要罷免要公投所以才提出嘛所以我當時的提案我就在想"},{"start":31917.594,"end":31944.024,"text":"最方便的方法就是像國民黨講的這樣就拿出身份證影印本來證明這個是他自己拿出來的啊可是我就考慮到拿出身份證影印本會增加很多的困難因為就剛剛前面委員質詢的現在的詐欺犯罪這麼多這些身份證上面有這麼多的個人個資如果你拿身份證影印本就一次都拿出來了但是每一個人都有身份證身份證上都有一個發證日期"},{"start":31946.098,"end":31957.456,"text":"發證日期護證機關都有登記那我請他加上一個這個身份證的發證日期作為這個連署核實是不是他本人連署"},{"start":31958.373,"end":31967.397,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31986.504,"end":31993.168,"text":"審判證的補發的時候護證機關裏面的審判證的發證日期就是補發後這個新的審判證的日期啦所以這查核有什麼困難那您聽我講完那你在聯署的時間跟譬如說聯署需要三個月、六個月的時間這三個月、六個月之間如果有審判證遺落的這個部分發生的時候假設日期不同"},{"start":32008.555,"end":32027.622,"text":"請問一下在幫忙檢核的地方的選務機關要不要確認說你這個是是還是不是?那你就要再回去請教一下如果是這樣他安理他的數量也是非常的少啊你有沒有算過多少比例的人在三個月內丟失身分證然後讓他普發完全了解你的意思但是就變成要刪掉"},{"start":32029.278,"end":32035.7,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":32055.467,"end":32065.154,"text":"我這個明明就是為了減核的需要沒有再增加連署的困難你跟國民黨一樣講我是增加連署的困難那你們跟他的行洩一氣嗎對於這樣子的回答你們還寫在那個報告裡面還向記者發表謝謝好 謝謝請王正旭委員"},{"start":32093.475,"end":32095.759,"text":"謝謝主席 可不可以請李主委請李主委"},{"start":32103.195,"end":32122.992,"text":"委員好主委你好你好我今天來請教這個問題就是說要守護我們民眾的罷免權利是憲法第十七條規定就是人民有選舉罷免創制護絕的權利我知道你是跟我的大學同學郭六洋醫師嗯"},{"start":32124.616,"end":32146.107,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":32154.551,"end":32162.495,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":32183.691,"end":32208.058,"text":"我們也知道說在根據這個選辦法第13條的規定目前在這個過程裡面往往中央跟地方進行這些處理的時候都會有一不一致的地方那不一致包括這個連署合格的條件連署書的這個查類方式都會有不同的這個可能性這部分包括主委你不知道有什麼看法嗎?要不要讓他精進讓他避免這樣的問題產生"},{"start":32209.585,"end":32228.672,"text":"好 謝謝王委員的指教 的確在最近某一個罷免案的個案裡面有發生類似的情形就是說中央跟地方針對這個連署人名冊的查對大家的看法有一點出入"},{"start":32229.892,"end":32248.347,"text":"有出入也沒有關係,因為根據相關法令的規定,縣市長的選舉罷免都是屬於中央選委會主管的事項。中央選委會主管,但是它只會監督地方選委會來執行。"},{"start":32251.349,"end":32278.914,"text":"所以如果有見解不一樣的地方大家可以透過溝通協調或者是上級的行政機關本於行政指導的立場可以達到一致的見解但是我們也為了讓所有的各地選委會大家有一致的標準所以先前就曾經有過很多對於如何查對標準我們有一些含釋"},{"start":32280.094,"end":32307.55,"text":"法律相關的規定我們也提示了所以這個東西是有存在的我們再把它作為一個綜合的整理讓大家作為一個參考好 謝謝 謝謝那我也麻煩那個部長可不可以請也告訴我們說如果針對於未來這個罷免要改善的話有什麼方案可以來執行因為我們這次也知道這個要調高這個門檻其實部長也有表示過將來可能會對於這個政黨造成一些惡性競爭"},{"start":32308.81,"end":32331.004,"text":"不當影響,所以提供了三個意見作參考。我們也知道立法院法治局也針對這個罷免改善方案提供了兩個可行性的一個探討,包括植物性質或者是選舉方式做不同的設計跟規劃。這部分不一定不知道有什麼樣的方案、覆案可以跟大家做討論嗎?"},{"start":32331.704,"end":32352.042,"text":"是,謝謝王委員的指教我相信最大的原因是來自於大家都知道選舉跟罷免雖然是人民的參政權但是在落實也就是說在執行的過程當中難免也加入政黨的競爭那我們最近的一次的選罷法的修正其實就是因為當時的在立法院各個黨團所這個互相協商然後共識過的一個方案"},{"start":32357.307,"end":32357.908,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":32388.679,"end":32388.96,"text":"徐富奎委員"},{"start":32408.847,"end":32429.033,"text":"主委我想罷免是民意的展現我們不應該用任何的方式來沒收人民的一致這點主委有認同嗎?認同不過現在國民黨跟民眾黨提出幾個版本尤其是要求我們罷免的這個同意票要超過被罷免人的當選票數"},{"start":32429.633,"end":32431.895,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":32454.196,"end":32456.257,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":32470.023,"end":32493.814,"text":"包括投票率、當選人人數、當選席次等等。基礎不一樣,得出來的票數當然不能做類比。但是用歷屆選舉的模式來看,一定是總統、立委選舉時的投票率會高嗎?選舉的投票率會高,而罷免時的投票率會低。"},{"start":32498.556,"end":32515.322,"text":"另外民眾都提出要附身分證、銀紋這件事情我個人以為萬萬不可啦這知識體大這不但有個資外洩的疑慮你像這個茂名連署通常我們整個民眾的理論都在講嘛這沒有人敢打這個風險我想主委你覺得打這個風險沒有?"},{"start":32518.183,"end":32522.365,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":32545.434,"end":32566.733,"text":"罷免的時程拉長跟這個身份證的原本可能並沒有很直接的關係。不過我想中選會也會花很多時間在處理這個事情上面,盡量我們的工作量。那另外我想大法官4至499號也有提出這個利益迴避的原則。主委請問這方面是不是要再標示一下你的態度,好不好?"},{"start":32570.034,"end":32594.36,"text":"關於利益迴避的原則的適用這個我們尊重司法院大法官會議的解釋那如果是就我們這次的選罷法的修正案的部分我們認為是不宜來做修正不宜更動的所以在這一屆如果是不宜的話那也不應該把這個不宜留到下一屆"},{"start":32595.8,"end":32617.808,"text":"所以只有一個標準嗎?是所以我想現在國民黨跟民眾黨刻意的提高罷免門檻嚴重違反人民使用罷免權的一個權利我想這個恣意提高罷免門檻逃避人民的監督那也竊取一個公民社會的溝通國民黨我們稍微急著排審、復委然後我們事後"},{"start":32620.169,"end":32641.653,"text":"二議來修改這個遊戲規則破壞一個政治的一個契約我相信朱毅本身是法律人也當過縣市長現在在我們中選會朱毅是不是應該你講到這個事情你究竟有什麼看法不好意思我剛才沒有很清楚講到你在一個法律人的角度你是很嚴謹的嘛是真的這樣子一個惡意修法你究竟有什麼看法嗎"},{"start":32642.405,"end":32670.283,"text":"我不敢說是惡意修法但是我認為就是說這次修法的發動跟對於這個選制的本身的檢討並沒有很直接的關係而是因為有一股這個政治上的風潮也許是不是會引起相互之間的一個罷免那是因為有這樣子的狀況而產生說要去考慮到要不要來修改這個"},{"start":32673.526,"end":32679.512,"text":"主委,最後我們中選會一定會支持人民有罷免的選擇權利,這點你認同嗎?在我們選務機關來捍衛國民的憲法上保障的參政權,這是我們責無旁貸。接下來請吳佩奕委員。"},{"start":32706.904,"end":32707.325,"text":"李慶勇主委"},{"start":32725.66,"end":32732.725,"text":"好,這個呢在今年的10月13號罷免謝國良的罷免投票日當天呢發生了一件事就是我們中正萬華區的臺北市議員鍾曉平他在投票所外面對媒體受訪的時候他說請投下不同意票現場的記者朋友很緊張趕快提醒他說這眾議員這個選舉當天啊在投票所門口已經依法"},{"start":32752.981,"end":32778.19,"text":"不能再拉票了我相信先請問主委這個有沒有違反選罷法在投票日當天在投票所門口來宣傳拉票依照我們選罷法第五十六條第二款跟委員報告這個案子已經有民眾檢舉了是那按照我們處理的程序我們都會先交給地方選委會就事實的部分來做進行調查"},{"start":32778.63,"end":32780.932,"text":"二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":32801.092,"end":32826.949,"text":"要指定動員令要來罷免無配役所以今年7月開始在我的選區連續一個禮拜有這個電話的語音電話在宣傳要罷免無配役這個今天呢我看到國民黨的委員提出選辦法修法版本其中徐宇珍委員的提案他是說一年你就只以"},{"start":32828.03,"end":32843.315,"text":"一年以內不得提議以及連署來罷免。這個徐宇昭委員的提案呢,提案人也有我們主席薛欣盈,然後也有國民黨的立委李燕秀,國民黨召委員胡坤祺,這個提案我不認同,不只我不認同,國民黨台北市黨部的主委黃立群也不認同啊,因為主委你知道嗎,我就職到現在,"},{"start":32854.295,"end":32859.019,"text":"一年不到我連半年不到七月開始他們就在我的選區提議要罷免我了所以呢我想國民黨是不是回去要跟黨主席、國民黨內部要先討論一下國民黨立委現在這個提案根本就國民黨台北市黨部主委已經公開就不同意見了"},{"start":32873.633,"end":32891.571,"text":"現在就已經在宣傳年屬要罷免無配一、罷免無私養了所以這個可能會需要討論一下但是我還是要說即使我現在被指定國民黨臺北市黨部主委下令動員令我們全區國民黨籍的里長要開始來動員準備明年罷免無配一即使如此我也不贊成國民黨這個修法版本"},{"start":32896.584,"end":32901.087,"text":"因為我們還是要來捍衛人民的罷免權這是憲法賦予人民的權利因為我們作為立法委員很重要一點在修法的時候要利益迴避我們修法是為了扶國利民不能今天說因為我吳佩儀要來被罷免了我趕快來修法說一年之內你們不能宣傳不可以這個樣子"},{"start":32919.659,"end":32925.524,"text":"人家要罷免我們,這是民眾的權利,我們能做的是什麼?我們要更加努力。我這邊直接講嘛,國民黨你黃綠緊綠,你戴中正奧華,你付出什麼?"},{"start":32929.881,"end":32937.866,"text":"我的付出努力是他們的一千倍、一萬倍,所以對自己方有信心。我們要更加努力為民服務,爭取民眾的認同,不是在立法院搞修法、修惡法、內修、沒收民眾的人民罷免權。這是立委的權利、的責任,還有這個蘇清泉委員的版本,一樣,同樣也是一個自私之利的修法。"},{"start":32950.874,"end":32974.023,"text":"因為蘇清泉委員在評論會選舉的時候說當時想要驗票但是因為驗票按照現在法規只有千分之三的這個規定嘛所以當時不符合法規所以現在他修法說要放寬千分之三不夠放寬到千分之十這通通都是為了自私利己的修法立委不可以這個樣子所以我希望我們在場所有不分黨派各位立法院的同仁們"},{"start":32975.043,"end":32987.108,"text":"即便我們要面臨民眾的罷免,這民眾的權利我們要尊重,我們要為民眾捍衛他們的基本憲法保障的參政權,而我們自己要更加努力爭取民眾的認同。謝謝。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝。接下來請郭國文委員。"},{"start":33003.955,"end":33032.195,"text":"謝謝主席 有請李俊勇主委好 請李主委主委好 主委您的任期到現在幾年了我有五年多了五年多了嗎五年多了 任期到明年的十一月好像六月就來了嘛 是的在你印象當中 第九屆進來的時候到第十屆 第十屆的時候有沒有來審查這個選罷法類似今天的這樣的草案 有沒有"},{"start":33035.578,"end":33057.2,"text":"有關於門檻的問題在上一屆的時候我印象中沒有沒有嘛對不對我跟你講上一屆的時候本席有提案你有沒有曉得本席有提案將門檻調高所以說這個我們內政委員會完全沒有討論嘛因為本席在提出這個版本的那種當中被國民黨拿來做宣傳說郭國恩有提啊賴瑞榮也有提啊"},{"start":33057.6,"end":33059.301,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2"},{"start":33078.587,"end":33098.862,"text":"沒有實行日期也就等於從這一屆就開始適用耶。這一頭就牽扯到大法官會議事案解釋的499號案的部分,有些所謂又有自肥的嫌疑。這一頭當然你不方便講自肥啊,你是說法律上的適合性與否。但是以499號案來說的話是延任嘛,是任期的延長嘛對不對。"},{"start":33100.743,"end":33127.967,"text":"但是如果防止罷免、阻礙罷免、閹割罷免的情況底下相對而言也是減少任期的縮短嘛防止任期的縮短嘛所以終歸來說一個任期的延長也好或者呢避免任期的縮短也好都是在保護任期嘛 對不對是的是的嘛 對不對所以499號案跟國民黨現在的這一個提案內容當中就異曲同工之妙嘛 是不是"},{"start":33130.782,"end":33148.274,"text":"主委 既然都是同本職都是一種任期保護當然有異曲同工之妙你這有些牽扯到自肥的問題嘛牽扯到自肥的問題再加上他不是從下一屆開始那不是很清楚就是違憲嗎主委不是嗎"},{"start":33149.795,"end":33174.087,"text":"這條文內容來說就很清楚啦都是一種任期的保護啊這不看就很清楚就是違憲的條款了嘛對不對再加上什麼這一次更糟糕的部分啊它是把門檻加高第一個不能宣傳是不是有這種條文對不對第二個要用身份證是不是身份證又可能會引起詐騙集團來藉故來收集這些各自的嫌疑嘛是不是對不對"},{"start":33175.742,"end":33189.044,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":33206.588,"end":33229.506,"text":"從哪邊支出?從哪邊動資?罷免如果是立委的話那是中央要編列預算當然是你編列預算啊一般而言你是用從第二準備金嘛對不對以前啊我查過嘛林昶佐的部分大概花了1500萬嘛陳柏惟的部分花了2000萬嘛我可以跟你講啊以後你這筆錢不用編那麼多了啦"},{"start":33230.407,"end":33242.658,"text":"如果國民黨的版本通過的話你這一筆錢根本不用到用得到的機會非常少因為大家看到門檻那麼高就不想進行罷免啊不想進行罷免的部分的話你這筆錢就不用花了嘛不是嗎"},{"start":33243.442,"end":33262.568,"text":"我們大概都不會編罷免的預算了。不會,但是你是動員第二預備金啦。是的。所以第二預備金就不用編那麼多啦。所以這等於是國民黨自打嘴巴把蘇文當年留下來的所謂的這個罷免權把它閹割掉嘛。國民黨的這個徒子徒孫把他之前的蘇文所創建的這個罷免權把它去除掉嘛,不是嗎?"},{"start":33263.548,"end":33283.402,"text":"最後的結果我是覺得你這後面的預算其實就不用變那麼多了啦如果國民黨真的這個法案通過的話也是可以順便把這部分的預算板要刪除掉了其實國民黨就是最需要做的是什麼不是修改法案啦是修改自己的言行啦因為自己的言行道行逆施才會引起人民的不滿想要罷免你啦我覺得主席今天真的是操之過急讓我們時間講這麼短了等這麼久謝謝好謝謝郭國文委員接下來請林楚英委員"},{"start":33304.801,"end":33305.262,"text":"審查委員李珠瑋"},{"start":33314.921,"end":33331.709,"text":"主委好我想今天討論了一整天雖然休息的時間非常長因為時間只有四分鐘所以我要講話講快一點我要echo一下就是剛剛吳佩儀委員她所提到的問題就是現在國民黨的版本我們看得出來其實就是司馬昭之心路人兼師他們怕他們進入所謂大罷免時代"},{"start":33333.05,"end":33335.972,"text":"但是我們看到現在前面有幾台媒體本身也是媒體出來的主委你應該知道以我們現在現行的法規在投票前的晚上10點鐘就禁止在媒體上面的宣傳然後一般民眾在社群媒體當中是過了12點鐘也就是跨過隔天在社群媒體上面就不能宣傳對嗎?是那這是依照哪一條法律?"},{"start":33364.793,"end":33390.545,"text":"好 我來告訴你好了 這個就是剛剛吳佩儀有提到的就是我們的選罷法第56條好 那麼如果根據現在國民黨他們的提議跟提案在一年前就不可以講那麼我們都知道如果說有人違反選罷法在投票前10點鐘 如果現在現場有媒體在10點以後還幫特定的候選人來宣傳是由誰來負責開罰"},{"start":33393.109,"end":33397.19,"text":"中選會嗎?還是NCC?是中選會還是NCC?是中選會。中選會嘛,對不對?活動期間。非活動期間嘛,對不對?就是過了選舉的截止宣傳的時候,那社群媒體,我們過去有一些案例,在投票的當天還有人發社群媒體來幫特定候選人宣傳,是不是也是中選會來負責開罰?是的。"},{"start":33419.574,"end":33441.241,"text":"好 那我就請問了如果說那像現在這個法規過去了之後我在社群媒體當中我只要提到罷免我只要在電視台提到罷免就一律都要開法是這個意思嗎在未滿一年的情況底下是不是罷免這兩個字變成了不能說的話台灣是不是變成是一個言論自由"},{"start":33448.823,"end":33462.929,"text":"前置的國家。這幾天國民黨一直在考試民進黨說要戒嚴啦。我實在不知道現在國民黨是不是要用透過選罷法來實施另外一種戒嚴。就是讓罷免這兩個字連講都不能講。"},{"start":33467.29,"end":33480.038,"text":"所以這個是另外一個層次的問題在一年以前對於任何人做罷免的倡議倡議這兩個字就是我現在講出來那我的意思是說今天如果有人寫臉書今天現在在後面還有四台攝影機"},{"start":33488.102,"end":33500.231,"text":"當甚至於超過10台只要有哪一台講到罷免有某某某有罷免的意思是不是這些媒體通通被二司機抓去罰然後這些寫臉書的、寫粹的、寫LINE的通通都要抓去裁罰"},{"start":33506.471,"end":33522.19,"text":"是這樣嗎?那這個是不是台灣要回到戒嚴的白色恐怖?所以我要說國民黨現在是不是透過修正選罷法要實施白色恐怖智慧的戒嚴讓罷免這兩個字是連講都不能講如果你告訴我你認為是不是這樣?主委"},{"start":33526.311,"end":33531.073,"text":"如果不是的話,那請問是要怎麼罰、怎麼抓或是怎麼樣來定義、提議或倡議,是怎麼界定?無從規範,州選會也無從去查處。"},{"start":33541.71,"end":33544.091,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":33564.417,"end":33566.179,"text":"二、審查委員邱志偉委員"},{"start":33599.675,"end":33623.744,"text":"這個質詢時間只有240秒啊這個請中選會李主委、內政部劉部長好請李主委、劉部長部長好像坐也比較久一點齁活絡活絡筋骨這個不管主委或者部長你們都擔任過立法委員你們也擔任過這個地方的行政首長坐檢禮位啊"},{"start":33627.54,"end":33649.354,"text":"你要思考到國家的利益、全民的利益制定的法律要扶國利民而不是禍國殃民制定的法律要得到這個大家的支持、全民的支持才能可餐可酒制定的法律要符合民主的要求不能制定出反民主、屠殺民主的法律"},{"start":33655.831,"end":33666.521,"text":"我看這修法我暗中都睡不著我不曉得站在這個政治工作者不管是李主委你看這個修法你會不會覺得憂心啊罷免權是民主國家基本規範對不對你這個一修法完成之後"},{"start":33677.344,"end":33686.132,"text":"事實上讓罷免權是名存實亡啊!大家要用一萬不可能有兩個把邊的人成立啊!你有同意嗎?"},{"start":33691.004,"end":33706.844,"text":"中選會作為一個選務的執行機關那對於這個一般人民的選舉權尤其是憲法所保證的參政權我們要予以維護這是我們責無旁貸的那如果修法之後這個你有辦法維護嗎"},{"start":33708.406,"end":33732.672,"text":"所以我們一定要把這個話講清楚這樣子的修法你幽不幽心我幽心幽心是這樣子的修法是違反了憲法保障權反民主也有違憲對不對幽心重重啊重鬆我不是要睡不著嗎那個我請教一下那個劉部長劉部長劉部長"},{"start":33736.894,"end":33738.38,"text":"你會不會用心重重"},{"start":33742.149,"end":33750.677,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想我的觀點跟李主委是一樣的因為人民參政權本來就是選舉罷免創制復決那如果罷免的門檻提高之後其實就是變相的剝奪或者是變相的剝奪了人民的罷免權那我想這個對於未來的政治發展都不會是一個正面的我們自詡為民主國家 對不對甚至是民主國家模範生"},{"start":33768.493,"end":33780.897,"text":"竟然堂堂在中華民國在台灣的國會制定出一個反民主的法案我們以後在國際社會敢說我們是民主國家的模範生嗎?我會覺得很害羞耶我會覺得很害羞耶台灣人你竟然制定出這麼反民主而且違憲的法案所有民眾都出來抗爭反對天怒人怨部長"},{"start":33798.308,"end":33804.946,"text":"副長,您有沒有什麼好的解方?讓我的憂心重重指數能夠下降一點。"},{"start":33806.825,"end":33832.66,"text":"我是建議說是不是可以維持現在的選舉罷免制度因為我們都知道在立法院裡面政黨的競爭非常的激烈那表示說社會上如果是要求我們整體的社會是一個穩定發展的話不要隨便修改選舉罷免的條款或是門檻所以他把個人利益凌駕於國家利益把政黨利益凌駕於國家利益嘛 對不對從動機行為理論"},{"start":33836.533,"end":33837.373,"text":"主委同意嗎?時間到了,我要遵守時間。謝謝委員。"},{"start":33867.341,"end":33868.202,"text":"陳冠廷委員主委"},{"start":33890.298,"end":33918.195,"text":"最好,剛才給你的書面資料請你先看一下因為我要就我這個選罷法的修正案裡面的第52條來針對這個地方來跟你請教一下我提出來的修正裡面有提到說政黨任何人印發文字圖畫從事競選之宣傳品應親自簽名非政黨推薦候選人未經政黨授權不得在宣傳筆上使用政黨負責人頭像政黨負責人姓名跟政黨負責人標章"},{"start":33919.229,"end":33936.327,"text":"我為什麼這樣講是因為這次的選舉在總統大選的時候有許多地區的不管是在立委或者是總統的地方會有特定的是刻意混淆什麼意思呢他會特定的為了要減少某一個"},{"start":33936.667,"end":33941.79,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":33965.748,"end":33989.966,"text":"所以這是很嚴肅的問題,我剛剛提供給你的資料你仔細看一下,比方說就有幾位不管是從嘉義到高雄,他們會用當時的副總統的頭像來作為他們宣傳品,但是他們沒有經過民主進步黨或者是當時的執政黨的授權,所以說這個是有意義的在去削弱或者是分散這些人的票源。"},{"start":33990.686,"end":34011.642,"text":"這是非常嚴肅的問題我發覺到許多國家特別是俄羅斯也在用類似的方式來去把民主政黨特別是他們反對黨的這些候選人他們會利用這樣的方式用跟反對黨候選人黨魁共同的這些照片去宣傳來去削弱反對黨的支持者的票源"},{"start":34012.682,"end":34026.449,"text":"這不是您身邊所回應的我剛剛看到這個書面報告按政黨是否推薦某任人或是否授權該政黨推薦之候選人使用政黨之頭像、政黨負責人姓名跟政黨標章是涉及其結盟考量"},{"start":34027.489,"end":34052.66,"text":"不是的,這是有特意在違反或者是想要有意義式的把我們的選舉系統去破壞的。所以這個我希望中選會是要去正視它的,不是說反正你就找其他民反來去找就好。他們就是要利用我們的漏洞去反民主嘛。我們現在的民主制度是用選辦法這樣子,我們當然是要做出相應的方式去修正啊。不然到時候你就會發生到有各種螢幕混濁的現象出現嘛。"},{"start":34053.16,"end":34059.107,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 三、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":34068.177,"end":34092.877,"text":"今天我們談論選罷法的修正案提出意見我就是希望說有這樣子的問題這樣子的東西要拿出來公開討論有這樣公聽會的機會我們才有辦法去把一項一項的事情去討論而不是去強硬通過嘛當然在我們選罷法今天大家都是專注在這個罷免相關的法律上面可是我們國家不是只有罷免相關的法律其實這一次的選戰有各種來去侵擾我們的民主進程的做法"},{"start":34093.157,"end":34095.999,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":34102.458,"end":34130.952,"text":"看看我們這麼多修正的法案跟我們這一次選戰我們這幾次選舉遇到的問題那是很可怕的耶就是不是只有我們的兩個國家兩個本土政黨在決鬥而已其他來自中國的這種各種的影響力用螢幕混珠的方式都是存在的所以我是真的很希望趙偉我們現在是不是可以不要操之過急然後來去有機會的話來召開公聽會我們把這些問題因為它同時除了影響我們之外也會影響到你們"},{"start":34132.922,"end":34137.705,"text":"審博洋委員審博洋委員"},{"start":34159.315,"end":34159.616,"text":"有請主委"},{"start":34172.612,"end":34188.597,"text":"主委好主委好 謝謝那我今天看今天的案子其實有6個不同的案子那因為我們現在只有4分鐘240秒啦所以我看一個案子大概就是只能問40秒左右顯然不是很合理啦所以呢我們就只能集中問幾個我比較關心的點是"},{"start":34190.057,"end":34205.032,"text":"那剛剛第一個就是冠廷有問到就是說關於這一個特定的政黨他會去使用別人的肖像啊什麼等等的之類那現在除了我們單純的譬如說請他不能夠這樣子以外或者說有一定的行政裁罰有什麼什麼預防的措施"},{"start":34207.349,"end":34229,"text":"我想這種現象大概分成兩種狀況有一種狀況我們也不能夠否認的政黨跟政黨之間的一個合縱連橫那也許會發生說不同政黨但是允許相當程度有一定的連結對但他有時候他的案例其實有時候可能是當然又惡意的"},{"start":34229.52,"end":34246.094,"text":"有惡意的連結希望造成選民認知的這個錯誤因此來作為他投票的依據也會有這種狀況對 因為我為什麼問這個很大的原因是因為他如果已經出現了結果後來才去裁罰或者去組織那個傷害已經造成了"},{"start":34246.995,"end":34262.854,"text":"所以要有什麼預防的措施?譬如說假設他在看因為我們不可能他在刊登相關的廣告或者做任何的宣傳的時候要經過中選委員的審核這是不可能的事情所以也就是說這件事情我們即使在法律做了這樣的一個規定他可能還是很難去預防"},{"start":34264.614,"end":34278.839,"text":"中選會除了你這個廣告的這個內容是很明顯的違法的這個我們可以去處理之外那如果說認定上有困難的話其實中選會也無從尤其是沒有辦法及時的來做認定"},{"start":34280.179,"end":34302.496,"text":"這個就是手段跟目的的問題就是說我們今天很多的法律我們在制定的時候我們會想要達到一個目的但那個手段可能不一定足夠但反過來講有時候手段可能會過多譬如說我們在這個已經剛剛我記得張祺凱委員在這邊在問關於這個身份證影本等等的事情我覺得他可能搞錯一件事情了因為身份證影本其實已經出委員會了所以他根本就不知道我們今天這個議案裡面"},{"start":34303.757,"end":34318.451,"text":"但是,因為他那時候講的,譬如說什麼死人連署啊,什麼等等之類的,我剛剛聽主委回答,其實在本來的機制裡面,我們就可以知道說啊,這個是有問題的,然後予以剔除嘛。所以你用了這個引本的方式,你就可能沒有辦法達到這個目的。"},{"start":34319.091,"end":34334.129,"text":"那我們今天要討論的案子呢不管是他的這個同意票必須要大於當時的這個票數他的罷免的這個目的到底是什麼其實中間也是沒有關聯性的照理說今天罷免照理說第一個他是人民要能夠行使他的政治的權利"},{"start":34335.07,"end":34353.475,"text":"所以他應該是第一個他的門檻絕對不能夠過高但是另外一個方面不能夠有權力的濫用但今天即使他定了同意票要大於這個當時當選的票數他根本就沒有辦法阻止權力濫用這件事情所以他最後只剩一個副作用就是他實質的提高罷免的門檻"},{"start":34354.896,"end":34371.696,"text":"這當然是不能夠接受的事情。但我最後還有一個問題,因為時間不太夠。因為有六個,一個只能問40秒,這真的是不合理。我不知道這個議程到底怎麼安排的。但是我還是要問一下關於到底最後幾天才能夠明掉這件事情。我覺得這個反而是值得討論的事。"},{"start":34372.957,"end":34386.393,"text":"目前我看到翁委員的這個提案看來時間尚有縮短那中選會當然在這一邊的態度是比較明顯的那有沒有什麼比較實質上的一個數據認為說到底是幾天不能夠發布才是比較妥當的"},{"start":34388.306,"end":34407.107,"text":"絕對的一個標準大概很難啦很難那世界各國所採取的這個方式也都很奇異那台灣這個規定10天這個是在諸多的這個主張裡面是草野協商最大的共識所以就定10天了"},{"start":34407.648,"end":34435.195,"text":"我覺得主委這個答案很好因為它有時候它並不是一個科學的問題它是一個政治問題政治的問題在立法院藉由朝野邪香得到一定的結論的時候它其實就是應該各黨應該遵守了那如果今天要用暴力的方式把它直接縮短或者甚至把它延長都一樣這個其實都是在破壞民主的精神這跟我們今天要達到的目的其實是完全不合啦是的那我最後還是要再講一次就是說一個問題40秒真的太少了啦好 謝謝主委謝謝主委"},{"start":34436.675,"end":34436.875,"text":"郭婉嫻議員"},{"start":34469.513,"end":34493.821,"text":"在這裡我先講一個小小的故事我要諧詢一個2013年的大語言家他那時候說了什麼他說有一批立委啊他或許預知他接下來會做很可怕的事情所以他在立法院裡面提案進一步讓你的罷免程序變得複雜中間講了很多很多然後他說我理念上支持啦但是要我把影本交出來門都沒有"},{"start":34494.561,"end":34495.862,"text":"審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2"},{"start":34522.482,"end":34523.024,"text":"二、審查委員黃國昌等2"},{"start":34527.66,"end":34554.732,"text":"黃國昌先生黃國昌委員好 這個憲法第十七條其實我們有明定啦人民有選舉罷免創制複決之權那罷免權呢其實是憲法賦予人民的參政權那這個是不可以在沒有經過充分的討論就要強行用修法來被剝奪限制民權的一個行使啦那我想呢這個因為擔心自己做不好而被罷免"},{"start":34555.512,"end":34570.983,"text":"那也因為這樣就想要來修改遊戲規則這個在很多人聽起來其實是荒謬至極非常荒謬的一件事情我想要做好公職人員的本分有這麼難嗎不要利用台灣的民主反民主"},{"start":34571.403,"end":34577.885,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":34595.449,"end":34622.529,"text":"應該要通過的學府法又把它延後了大概一個禮拜這中間一個禮拜當然也發生了新北市的學校有學生14歲跳樓自殺學府法應該要擺在最前面我想呢應該是要把民生的法案把重要的法案擺在這種政治性怕自己被罷免要提高罷免門檻的修法應該要把它擺在最後我不曉得主委您認同嗎"},{"start":34624.707,"end":34639.782,"text":"關於議程的安排我們不便自著了但是排上這個法案因為我們選務機關認為還有待商榷所以我們必須要很負責任把我們的立場我們的顧慮要向委員報告"},{"start":34641.625,"end":34664.867,"text":"另外根據大法官的釋字號第499號的解釋利益迴避其實是公職人員應該遵守的一個原則當立委面臨可能被罷免的情況之下是不是真的應該為了要自我保護而修法提升罷免的難度這個部分我想請教一下主委您的看法"},{"start":34666.448,"end":34686.101,"text":"這也牽涉到所謂的利益迴避的問題我們覺得這個修法是不好的那既然是不好的話不應該說現在通過了只是現任的立委不適用但是把這個不應該通過的法律留到下一屆去適用它還是不應該適用"},{"start":34687.372,"end":34687.492,"text":"吳思瑤委員"},{"start":34720.074,"end":34720.494,"text":"有請主委。"},{"start":34728.079,"end":34747.611,"text":"好,那辛苦了,還是要再次抗議,有四分鐘很難針對這麼重要的法案來做完整的論述。那我想我對於罷免的方面的提案,我們民進黨團立場非常的清楚,我們反對用任何的方式,哪怕是在連署加難,或者是投票的門檻提高,來閹割人民珍貴的憲法復權、罷免權,我們都反對。"},{"start":34754.035,"end":34757.036,"text":"但今天我要針對選罷法53條的條文我發現這是今天排審一個非常重要的新的議案也就是主委您知道這個世界119個國家進行調查有79個國家都有所謂的選前冷靜期"},{"start":34772.26,"end":34790.504,"text":"選前冷靜期除了禁止在特定時間的競選活動或者是禁止媒體相關報導還包括禁止公佈民調。那翁曉琳委員她提的案子是針對選辦法52條要把民調的冷靜期也就是禁止公佈民調的時間從10天縮短為3天。"},{"start":34794.023,"end":34816.997,"text":"我個人認為民調是一個選舉有效的策略更被原用成為一種武器成本非常低廉利用假民調來影響選舉在台灣發生的案例也非常多我想現在有幾件大家都還記憶深刻的事情譬如說在去年底"},{"start":34817.998,"end":34843.379,"text":"在總統選舉三組候選人的選舉的辯論會上柯文哲民眾黨的總統候選人就公開在公開辯論的時候他質疑了國民黨的侯友宜候選人說你為什麼接受中共的假民調來影響選舉這是柯文哲對侯友宜在選舉的公開辯論會裡頭他的提問"},{"start":34846.221,"end":34872.091,"text":"而這件事情不是空穴來風在今年8月30號也正式被判刑了就是有一位林姓的記者跟蘇姓的退休教授確實收受了中共福建省委員會150萬的報酬灌水來製造假民調替侯康沛衝高支持率最後被台中地院今年8月底判決確定"},{"start":34875.43,"end":34901.901,"text":"所以呢我看到劉世芳部長在這裡為什麼內政部要循政黨法的規範提請憲法法庭來解散統促黨因為有非常清楚的證據統促黨收受7400萬的金額來介入台灣的選舉所以中共的借選不只對台灣對世界各國包括今年剛選完的美國總統大選"},{"start":34903.402,"end":34910.05,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":34921.243,"end":34944.04,"text":"所以中選會你們會支持民調從10天禁止日期縮短為3天嗎?我們認為現行的辦法10天既然是當初這個草野的共識那這個一般的選民也都認同了適應了那所以這個10天我們認為不宜再更改"},{"start":34944.645,"end":34945.025,"text":"王小玲提案"},{"start":34962.057,"end":34976.636,"text":"讓民調的冷靜期縮短為三天中共的公然借選就更廉價的可以影響台灣的選舉期期以為不可所以我也呼籲主席這個是新的提案新生事物"},{"start":34977.717,"end":34992.765,"text":"切勿快速的進入審查我們需要公聽會這個是這一次一併今天列入來議案要討論的新生議題我們需要跟非常多的選舉專家政治專家民調專家媒體專家乃至於公民團體來嚴肅的討論這項修法這是我對於主席的期待我們需要公聽會再行審查相關的議案謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":35006.996,"end":35007.577,"text":"臨月勤委員"},{"start":35035.671,"end":35054.907,"text":"針對翁小林委員等人提案《選罷法》第53條要將禁止發布民調時間從選前10天縮短為前3天。關於這點,我覺得大家可以好好想一想。過去許多區域立委、民意代表常常指控受到假民調攻擊、假訊息干擾。"},{"start":35056.409,"end":35075.307,"text":"導致影響最後選舉的結果,當初設計10天前禁止發布民調,用意也是如果真的有假民調、假訊息,要給候選人有一個澄清的機會。關於委員提案縮短為3天,我不曉得用意為何,難道是磨刀霍霍要幹什麼大事嗎?"},{"start":35076.748,"end":35095.763,"text":"這個制度設計就是要保護台灣民主制度避免惡意操作這樣的胡亂修法我擔心會有無法想像的後果所以想問諸位十天前調整成三天不能夠發布民調你認為會有什麼問題我們看不到把十天縮短為三天的必要性"},{"start":35096.283,"end":35099.544,"text":"有關徐宇珍委員修正的修法的版本要將選罷法的90條修正為同意票數超過被罷免人的得票數我更是深感不解攤開我國選舉的歷程罷免的投票率"},{"start":35121.072,"end":35145.318,"text":"普遍低於一般的投票這變相加嚴了罷免的條件也導致了被民眾戲稱鳥籠罷免此外目前的現行機制我必須坦白說無論哪個政黨的民意代表都有面臨過選民的挑戰有罷免成功也有罷免失敗的這也代表目前制度不分顏色不分黨派都促使民意代表"},{"start":35145.798,"end":35161.512,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計四、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計五、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計四、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條條文修正草案．計五、審查"},{"start":35162.653,"end":35188.964,"text":"我們已經做過很多次的說明最重要的就是它的利潤基礎是不存在的因為兩個數字它所產生的這個基礎是完全不一樣包括投票率包括當選人的人數包括候選人的人數都不一樣這些都是一些變相既然這個基礎不一樣的話你就沒有辦法拿它所產出的這個數字來做比較"},{"start":35193.035,"end":35222.036,"text":"那你覺得這是一種很簡單的講很簡單的講就是你不能夠用這個選舉投票時的民意要來壓制這個罷免投票時的民意因為罷免投票時的民意才是最新的民意經過至少一年半以後那麼很多在當初的民意可能會發生變動會發生變動所以他已經不具參考的價值了"},{"start":35222.918,"end":35224.165,"text":"所以這是不是一種鳥籠罷免、假罷免"},{"start":35228.399,"end":35255.307,"text":"是不是假罷免?他真的要罷免?是真的要罷免可是基本上門檻調得這麼高的時候根本就是做不到不是嗎?所以目前我覺得現行的罷免機制不管藍綠過去真的是有成功也有失敗有投票通過罷免也有否決不管藍綠職位高低民意代表都真的是必須戰戰兢兢來接受民意的監督跟檢視"},{"start":35256.483,"end":35271.351,"text":"這也是我們的選舉罷免精神所在,所以如今藍白要沒收了,不知道是害怕還是霸道。好,以上謝謝。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝。接下來請邱益穎委員。那請李崑澤委員。"},{"start":35285.168,"end":35288.614,"text":"好,謝謝張偉。請一下李主委。李主委好。"},{"start":35297.402,"end":35326.091,"text":"主委您好大家都提到投票日前投票日前十日禁止公佈民調要來做這次修法要調整為三日其實爭議是很大在選舉的理論裡面有一個著名的理論叫做漏斗理論漏斗理論就是選舉活動剛開始的時候大家考慮的因素會很多會有你的社會的狀況突發的事件"},{"start":35326.651,"end":35332.715,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":35353.066,"end":35355.169,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":35366.331,"end":35387.317,"text":"民調對於選舉的衝擊是非常大的不管是以前的臺北市長的選舉或是宋楚瑜參選總統的選舉或是這一次的總統大選的選舉都可以看到假民調的衝刺對選情的一個衝擊那這一次會做這樣的一個提案的一個"},{"start":35388.536,"end":35397.093,"text":"做修正啊我認為是萬萬不能接受啊這個會讓假民調更為充斥要讓民眾去理解或者是"},{"start":35398.277,"end":35422.11,"text":"去做澄清的時候沒有辦法去做處理這對選舉的公平性影響非常大來 主委簡單說明一下現在的這個民調它的包裝可能會做得非常非常的精細就是讓你不會覺得說 欸 被人看到你就會傷心了所以要讓我們的選民他能夠有足夠的時間去做分辨"},{"start":35423.371,"end":35442.185,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十"},{"start":35450.811,"end":35468.259,"text":"必須要低於當選票這個是非常奇特的一個政治的設計我們限縮人民罷免的權利這是反公民的行為這是非常離譜的然後我們看到所謂的選舉罷免"},{"start":35470.04,"end":35475.851,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":35482.148,"end":35509.982,"text":"如果說我們要把這個罷免能夠成立你的同意票要高於你的當選的一個票數的話這無疑是限制人民的基本的一個罷免的權利這在我們的憲政體制跟政治制度的設計是相違反的這個問題是非常嚴重那其實在多數的民主國家他們都是"},{"start":35510.822,"end":35512.864,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":35529.232,"end":35547.451,"text":"其實相關的議題我已經在今天說明了很多次了每次講的也都差不多了所以是不是容許我也許各位請各位不要介意容許我用另外一種方式來表達也就是剛剛提到的這個選舉的票"},{"start":35550.334,"end":35556.999,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":35580.274,"end":35594.247,"text":"身為立法委員保障人民的權利是我們最基本的責任不是去限縮人民的權利這是我一再要提醒各位的接下來請葉元之委員"},{"start":35613.339,"end":35640.442,"text":"麻煩請中選會主委好請你主委主委好剛剛那個我們立法院學弟王逸川他用我的用我來舉例他說如果要罷免我的話可以擺攤的話就可以如果要改成要身份證可以變個資對不對是吧剛剛這樣講吧我想問一下現在如果要連署的話需不需要提供個資"},{"start":35641.854,"end":35659.794,"text":"在不修法的情況下,現行版本要連署要不要提供個資?我們的提議的這個格式以及這個...要提供什麼?身份證字號要不要?身份證字號要不要?要。那個地址要不要?要。姓名要不要?要。那這是不是個資?"},{"start":35661.341,"end":35679.469,"text":"是吧,所以在現行的版本情況之下,詐騙極端如果要收集個資它也是可以嘛,這是第一件事情。第二件事情,王逸川剛剛講說,如果我們要讓這個提議或連署失效的話,就自己去擺另外一個攤,然後讓來連署的人,他重複連署就可以失效。請問一下這個狀況在現在的情況之下,會不會發生?"},{"start":35682.881,"end":35691.375,"text":"可不可不可以發生我不保證他不會發生會發生嗎所以實際上詐騙集團如果要詐騙的話跟要不要提供身份證沒什麼關係嗎"},{"start":35693.564,"end":35716.936,"text":"我是不知道為什麼王一川這麼了解詐騙集團的心聲可能憑那種交流還是怎麼樣其實他講的東西在現在就會發生那如果按照他的邏輯的話我們現在是不是要把連署的階段取消因為怕詐騙集團收集個資以後罷免或者是總統選舉那個如果獨立參選人要連署乾脆把連署把它取消好了因為都有可能被騙個資嘛"},{"start":35718.797,"end":35746.434,"text":"所以這應該不會是討慮的主要的論點啦論點應該是說把身份證加進去會不會減少死人連署、濫用連署、抄名單嘛這個才是關鍵嘛好我問主委第二個問題選法法75條說就職未滿一年者不得罷免對不對是請問一下就職未滿一年不得罷免的定義是什麼是說不能向中選會提交罷免還是說不能啟動罷免的活動"},{"start":35747.314,"end":35761.207,"text":"不得向中選會提出罷免提議所以換句話說在我們現在選爸爸的規定裡面有人可以比如說選輸了立刻找自己的競選團隊開始罷免對手可不可以"},{"start":35762.333,"end":35765.417,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":35778.792,"end":35799.339,"text":"因為我選輸你,你的得票比較高,下次要選行遠離你不容易,所以乾脆我第二天就開始啟動罷免,把你罷免掉,利用這個罷免門檻比較低,希望能夠爭取第二次罷免的機會。這個就是我們現在選辦法最荒謬的地方,人家可能一天都還沒開始做,就準備要被罷免了。主委你認同這種惡罷嗎?"},{"start":35801.86,"end":35806.442,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":35823.804,"end":35849.467,"text":"因為選贏你不容易啊他們要爭取再次翻盤的機會嘛願賭不服輸嘛所以不需要把罷免講得好像哎呀什麼沒收民權啊這個不是沒收民權啊這個是沒收別人政治鬥爭願賭不服輸的這個權利讓他們一罷再罷一罷再罷搞得每年都要選舉可以這樣子喔好再來啊我念一段話啦看一下主委認不認同啊"},{"start":35850.307,"end":35865.56,"text":"而說單一席次往往造成高票當選低票罷免少數民意否決多數民意的狀況這個是民主機制的謬誤應該罷免同意票要多於當初的得票一票請問一下你認同這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":35867.008,"end":35888.377,"text":"你認同嗎?這個就是今天我們討論的重點。你認不認同?我個人不認同。那你就打臉郭國文了啦!因為這個是郭國文的主張啊!當時郭國文提出這個案子還有好幾位民進黨的立委連署。所以著是驚悲啊!類似的版本民進黨提很多,不是只有郭國文。賴瑞榮也提到一模一樣的案子啊!"},{"start":35890.008,"end":35913.546,"text":"罷免實施之後出現惡罷亂象重生違反票票等值為了要改善惡質罷免的這個文化所以同意罷免票要多於當初得票一票那又用講的所以我真的不知道民進黨每一個人在這邊講的一副好像捍衛民主價值講那麼一大堆實際上只是想要鬥爭嘛謝謝謝謝葉委員接下來請陳妍委員"},{"start":35930.339,"end":35937.924,"text":"等下陳怡委員質詢完,我們讓部長、主委還有行政人員大家可以休息五分鐘用洗手間。好,謝謝主席。麻煩請中選會主委。"},{"start":35951.979,"end":35971.768,"text":"主委好我想首先在這裡要跟主委討論一個概念每一個人每一張票都非常的重要那即便是總統的選舉就是那麼多人投票的這個選舉也一樣每一票都是非常重要的這樣的一個概念我想主委你是認同的吧是的"},{"start":35972.248,"end":35996.684,"text":"好 那我記得在2018年的這個選舉的時候曾經發生了一件還蠻刺激的事就是說這個平地原住民的選民呢選務人員竟然給了山地原住民的選票那主委也知道就是2014年在南投的這個原住民議員的選舉勝負之差只有差一票而已"},{"start":35997.85,"end":36019.77,"text":"所以每一票都很重要尤其是在我們原住民的這個選舉當中他的這個影響更是很明顯的那麼在今年是這個今年是這個總統跟立法委員的這個選舉那依照規定選舉公報呢應該是在兩日前就要送到這個選舉人的手上了"},{"start":36020.53,"end":36039.463,"text":"今年選舉是1月13日,我1月10日收到彰化的選民跟我說,他們只有收到選區立委公報、總統候選人的公報以及政黨票公報,但是並沒有收到原住民立委的選舉公報。當下我跟中選會反應說,"},{"start":36043.146,"end":36044.768,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2二、審查委員蘇清泉等2"},{"start":36063.709,"end":36077.668,"text":"對於委員接受民眾的陳情對我們選委會提出這些問題的話我們都應該會直接跟縣的選委會做聯繫希望他們能夠查明"},{"start":36078.544,"end":36096.071,"text":"但是因為他這件事情是就發生在選前三天嘛那我辦公室只好說趕快去跟當然我們也有趕快去跟那個彰化的這個宣文會聯繫可是你知道他們怎麼回的嗎他們也是很誇張就是說"},{"start":36097.452,"end":36112.705,"text":"他不知道說原住民立委的選舉公報有沒有發他們都不知道然後他們要我們的團隊自己去統計有多少戶沒有收到然後呢還要我們寫好姓名地址傳真給他們"},{"start":36114.744,"end":36131.536,"text":"那他們在重新濟發我想要請教主委喔就是選務工作是這樣做的嗎我們不是選務人員呢我想我這個個案我可能回去我要再進行了解喔如果像委員所說的這樣子的處理的過程的話那我們一定要嚴加糾正"},{"start":36132.492,"end":36148.166,"text":"是,因為在原住民每次在相關選舉在投票之前,像這種,這樣類似的事情,層出不窮。是,因為過去曾經發生過,所以我們也都是一再的叮嚀,一再的交代。"},{"start":36149.138,"end":36171.751,"text":"因為當時我的選民是說不只他們這個里沒有收到連隔壁也沒有收到那就是說選委會要去統計要民眾自己去統計有多少人沒有收到然後還要傳真回傳這個姓名地址給他們就這個真的是一個非常扯的事情我們會進行調查把這個調查結果跟委員做報告"},{"start":36172.031,"end":36187.754,"text":"那現在看起來主委你說現在要回去了解那等於說這件事情選舉結束到現在現在已經12月了那你們都完全都沒有去了解這個問題出在哪裡然後未來要怎麼改善"},{"start":36189.015,"end":36210.76,"text":"我這樣聽起來我看主委還是沒有掌握這樣的一個情形。初步他們跟我講是沒有接獲通報了。那更誇張了。我一定要再進行了解。所以你們吃案了嗎?那個彰化那邊吃案了嗎?我來瞭解我來瞭解。好那我希望兩個禮拜跟我們回報這個結果。好謝謝。謝謝。好我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":36231.492,"end":36248.519,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":36254.332,"end":36265.144,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計八條及第六十九"},{"start":36270.84,"end":36288.253,"text":"審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2審查委員楊曜等2"},{"start":36292.675,"end":36320.408,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計四十條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計四十條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計四十條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計四十條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計四十條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":36323.582,"end":36341.059,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":36349.289,"end":36366.856,"text":"二、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。三、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案。四、審查公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":36802.705,"end":36803.106,"text":"陳培育委員"},{"start":36825.284,"end":36839.597,"text":"主委好我們今天在這邊一整天我的朋友在線上問我說你們到底在談什麼這樣大家已經有點看不懂了那我就解釋給他聽我說呢國民黨的提案他希望這個得票數的部分呢還有這個身份證的部分"},{"start":36840.458,"end":36843.961,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":36860.234,"end":36870.531,"text":"會有一個很大的部分的疑慮就是當讓我們的國民交出身份證的時候其實可能會降低人民對於政治的信任度這個部分你認同嗎?"},{"start":36871.943,"end":36896.014,"text":"也就是說如果我的資料是可以被國家這樣掌控的如果國家用這樣的權力來強迫人民那其實會讓人民對於民主政治其實是越來越沒有信心交出這樣子的牽涉到個人的這個資料的部分國民是會有戒心的這個戒心也許是來自於對政府的不信任也許是來自於被詐騙集團的一個憂慮都有可能"},{"start":36896.794,"end":36919.824,"text":"對,我相信尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙、紡織的工作一個非常重要的提醒不管是對長輩或是對青少年我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件所以我覺得光是這件事情我們就應該更努力地讓全國人民知道如果真的藍白的法案通過之後光是身份證這件事情我覺得是一般人民會有同感的接下來像這樣子"},{"start":36921.425,"end":36934.9,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十"},{"start":36936.542,"end":36958.319,"text":"也就是說如果罷免的門檻變這麼困難然後不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感越來越沒有信心認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了這個直接的是限制了人民的罷免權"},{"start":36959.96,"end":36983.985,"text":"當然反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此避免或者是躲過這個被罷免的可能性這個反射的利益會存在對沒錯我認為這件事情應該讓更多人知道接下來呢我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度"},{"start":36984.685,"end":37007.049,"text":"尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告我們久久才能夠看到他甚至於跟我在同樣一個交易文化委員會的葉元之委員他連第一次要質詢的時候他都搞不清楚狀況他錯過了第一次的質詢我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表一旦藍白的法案通過之後把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難是不是我們就更難以"},{"start":37011.69,"end":37012.711,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":37018.518,"end":37027.303,"text":"公職人員如何去行使他的職權,如何去經營他的選民,這個每個人可能都有不同的方式,所以這點我們就無從評論。"},{"start":37047.817,"end":37048.598,"text":"二、審查委員陳培鈺委員"},{"start":37077.298,"end":37078.159,"text":"二、審查委員劉建國委員"},{"start":37101.445,"end":37121.636,"text":"地方議員代表其實也有制定法律的權利不過這屬於地方的事項只要是經過民意機關通過通通叫做法律我只要表達就是說有時候在法律訂定的過程裡面不一定極盡的公平也必須要透過多次的修正之後才有辦法達到"},{"start":37122.575,"end":37126.519,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":37140.453,"end":37141.374,"text":"二、審查《公職人員選舉罷免法》修正草案案。"},{"start":37157.845,"end":37159.266,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":37174.211,"end":37195.471,"text":"我必須要很誠懇地在這邊做這樣的呼籲,但我看我們中選會主委這個已經站了一整天,聲音已經快沒有了,我是不是要請,輪一下請劉部長,不然劉部長在那邊也蠻孤單的,我只有四分鐘而已,剩下三分鐘而已,我有十萬火急的重要議題要請教劉部長。"},{"start":37197.008,"end":37225.835,"text":"審查委員劉仁豪 年代資金條例跟處理廠事務會這個部分我們在第3個會期已經通過了對不對那因為這次預算就持續的在這樣的杯葛退回然後最終開始審了不過目前為止內政委員會相關的預算還沒有審進所以沒有到大會去那有可能這次會議會到1月21號有可能嘛有可能會到1月21號才決定那1月21號整個如果決定之後有順利完成三讀"},{"start":37226.855,"end":37248.381,"text":"那這位村里長有機會領到第一次的這個1.5的春節假花的1.5個月的這個事務會嗎?是沒有問題我們確定因為這個是我們自己在上個會期林右昌部長時候就已經答應了所以我們想一共5點5點多億1月21號通過之後沒關係我們會處理希望在10天間"},{"start":37255.816,"end":37271.955,"text":"我們希望在春節前的十天撥進去春節前的十天春節前的十天但是你的三股是1月21號嗎?我自己講的部分就是說我們去處理這個我們已經完成了一些預算的這個撥補的程序所以沒有問題我們去先編好了啦"},{"start":37273.616,"end":37282.118,"text":"審查委員楊曜等19年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等19年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及第六十七條條文修正草案。"},{"start":37297.062,"end":37297.542,"text":"審查委員蘇清泉等2"},{"start":37318.587,"end":37345.874,"text":"我真的要向委員報告,因為我們這個部份的事情有去跟每一個應該處理的黨團都有請教過,沒有人會反對這個案。我相信當然沒有人敢反對這個案,不是沒有人會反對,是沒有人敢反對就對了。但是因為我反對議員的審查、定署、拖延的時間,跟這套的意義,你如果完全三道,過年是這套的儀表嘛,我如果記錯了,那你會作弊,我就是過年才會知道。沒關係,我如果知道說一定會過,我會先去做啦。"},{"start":37346.829,"end":37356.683,"text":"你就是一件事,你有錢也是一件事,你要執行一定是三十幾年才能執行嘛,你不可能提早執行嘛,你要去提早執行,你提早執行就代表"},{"start":37358.684,"end":37361.325,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":37389.539,"end":37390.16,"text":"邱奕英委員吳立華委員"},{"start":37413.653,"end":37439.438,"text":"委員好部長好辛苦了我過去在內政委員會常常來質詢關於原住民的選制跟選政那我想跟部長就是分享一下因為這些問題我每一題都問過很多次我也有很多的提案版本但是呢好像一直被漠視"},{"start":37440.838,"end":37445.882,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":37462.145,"end":37474.473,"text":"但是我們的選罷法卻允許缺額的狀況。怎麼說呢?因為在選罷法第七十條第二項的後段"},{"start":37475.404,"end":37494.915,"text":"他這麼寫,他把原住民的立委跟直轄市議員、縣市議員、鄉鎮市民代表、原住民區的區民代表,他是視同一樣,就是同一個選舉區內缺額達二分之一的時候才能夠做普選投票。"},{"start":37495.905,"end":37523.693,"text":"也就是說按照我們現在三元假設三位如果要達到二分之一以上我們就會變成什麼呢二分之一就是要兩位要兩位才能補選三個立委兩個初試才能補選然後如果單一來看三元假設缺一個平原缺一個等同六個立法委員缺兩個其實也都不能補選"},{"start":37525.276,"end":37534.31,"text":"所以這樣的狀況以前有沒有發生有例如第八屆的平地原住民立委他在2013年被判刑定讞"},{"start":37535.851,"end":37549.894,"text":"解除職務。從2013到2016改選前那個時候立法院就少了一個原名立委嚴重的傷害我們的參政權所以本席有提出過選報法70條、71條、73條希望能夠去做如果一旦有缺額就有補選或遞補的規定但是很遺憾沒有引起共鳴"},{"start":37561.419,"end":37577.263,"text":"另外我也要提大家都知道我們原住民立委很辛苦因為選區很大為什麼?憲法增修條文在2005年的時候國民大會覆決通過了所以立委第七屆的席次減半變為113席從那個時候開始區域立委是單一選區多數決"},{"start":37583.985,"end":37601.324,"text":"我們原住民立委又來了跟地方民代相同複數選區單計非讓渡投票次這讓我們疲於奔命最沒有經濟能力的原住民立委不論是在選舉或者是在服務"},{"start":37603.086,"end":37613.713,"text":"都是那麼大的等同總統的選區所以我想要問一下部長哪一條法律告訴我們說原住民的選區一定要全國這個選區劃分是誰的權責選區的劃分好像是由中選會來定定我們的選務機關嗎是那因為時間的關係我直接講我希望修正選罷法第35條"},{"start":37632.591,"end":37652.988,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修"},{"start":37659.557,"end":37680.473,"text":"我們原住民立委很難以世代交替然後很快速的我再跟部長再講一個問題這個問題我質詢過11次就是我們原住民在都會區沒有憲法保障秘密投票高達3663間也就是原住民開票所的五分之一投票及亮票"},{"start":37681.587,"end":37697.26,"text":"降低我們的投票意願所以我也說要修第十七條能不能夠中選會這個地方同意我們不再急轉投票還有幽靈人口更可怕因為我們原住民自從有了刑法的第146條的徵修"},{"start":37699.561,"end":37723.725,"text":"慘了一選完舉很多人就去抓誰是投票前回來的即便是他的侄女他的表妹通通都觸犯刑法146條所以呢我也希望能夠修正選罷法第57條的第三項能夠不受第17條第一項的限制應在戶籍地投票的限制以上我只是要表達感慨我們原住民的這些問題"},{"start":37728.294,"end":37748.367,"text":"我已經不知道每一個議題都不知道質詢過多少次也有提案版本從來沒有獲得大家的共鳴內心很難過希望我們的選政單位選務單位還有各位立委同仁我們大家一起努力好不好還有很多的事情是值得我們努力的謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝吳委員接下來請傅昆奇總莊傅昆奇總莊傅昆奇總莊不在"},{"start":37755.111,"end":37777.353,"text":"廖先祥委員 廖先祥委員 廖先祥委員不在何欣淳委員 何欣淳委員 何欣淳委員不在林德福委員 林德福委員 林德福委員不在王定宇委員 王定宇委員 王定宇委員不在張家俊委員 張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在沈發慧委員 沈發慧委員 沈發慧委員不在秦理昆成委員"},{"start":37789.021,"end":37801.645,"text":"謝謝主席,那我們請這個劉部長或是這個李主委等一下我質詢的部分會就交這兩位好請劉部長,還有李主委我們一起好不好,沒關係"},{"start":37805.516,"end":37829.548,"text":"這個其實我們今天問了一整天都是在問這個有關這個鳥籠罷免的事情那這個鳥籠罷免其實已經有一條在朝野協商了就是身份證連署的事情要付身份證影本那另外還有一個就是今天本來要去審查的就是說這個我們要把它加嚴那就是說除了這個身份證影本之外呢你這個罷免的票數要比當選的票數還要高這就是鳥籠罷免那其實剛剛"},{"start":37835.575,"end":37858.32,"text":"很多委員都已經有提過了那我先問這一個內政部劉部長請問一下我今天看到一則新聞他就說這一個內政部這個解除這個前南投縣這個十起委員議員他是中配的資格請問一下為什麼是所以他已經這一個卸任了那為什麼是解除他的資格"},{"start":37858.8,"end":37886.549,"text":"是,因為我們根據國籍法20條就是說有這個具有中國籍的這個台灣的這個有戶籍的這個人參選他當選上以後根據國籍法呢他應該要放棄他國國籍那給他們一年的時間來放棄那因為十選院議員呢他是遞補上去的所以呢在那個南投縣議會公告他當選以後呢他其實我們發現到說他在一年內啊"},{"start":37887.549,"end":37896.453,"text":"並沒有放棄他的他國國籍所以我們就引用國籍法已經發公文給石雪業本人還有南投縣議會就解除他的議員的職務"},{"start":37898.052,"end":37903.995,"text":"所以說他沒有放棄中國的國籍就對了嗎目前是這樣子有沒有放棄中國國籍這是第一個在我們的相關的護意證系統裡面查不到那要希望他能夠提出他具體的證明說他有沒有放棄那我們也問過南投縣議會南投縣議會應該在一年前就知道這個部分南投縣議會也沒有辦法回應這個問題所以我們的判斷是他並沒有放棄就是他沒有辦法提出證明他有放棄中國的國籍就對了是"},{"start":37927.927,"end":37931.111,"text":"按照國籍法的第十條規定外國人不得擔任總統副總統國籍法第20條也規定說中華民國國民取得外國國籍者"},{"start":37943.204,"end":37962.885,"text":"不得擔任中華民國的公職然後呢總統副總統選舉罷免法也規定說具有外國國籍者不得申請登記為總統副總統候選人這規定很清楚但是呢關於這個縣市首長立法委員或是說什麼縣市議員有沒有說具有雙重國籍不能登記參選"},{"start":37964.97,"end":37985.283,"text":"他只要是符合選罷法的規定涉及在我們他的選區裡面四個月以上他是具有中華民國國籍符合涉及的要件即便是他有外國的國籍所謂的雙重國籍並無礙於他的候選人的資格"},{"start":37985.723,"end":37987.686,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":38001.483,"end":38003.325,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":38020.063,"end":38044.438,"text":"就是你就是當選無效嘛是不是要解職要解職好那我現在問一個比較實際的問題我剛才看到這個陸委會他最新的一個民調有74%的人認為中配擔任立法委員等公職需要放棄中華人民共和國的國籍這是我剛才看到這個陸委會最新的民調74%認為說如果是中配啊"},{"start":38046.459,"end":38049.121,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":38066.756,"end":38089.581,"text":"報告委員在立法委員宣誓的那一天是對著大法官宣誓的所以你們會有個拒絕書就是要克遵中華民國的憲法那還有我了解就是立法委員也要簽一個沒有這個其他國籍的這樣子的拒絕書所以他在當選的那一天就已經告訴這個台灣的中華民國的人民說他已經只有具備中華民國國籍"},{"start":38090.641,"end":38094.883,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":38111.331,"end":38139.31,"text":"這要由立法院來決定因為第一個如果他現在是當選的狀態當中要解職不符合國籍法的規定要解職的話要由立法院來告訴他他被解職因為這是一層一層這個層轉上去那由立法院來決定說他在這個服務的這個時間呢他需不需要退還他在立法委員裡面所取得的薪水及其他相關的薪資補貼"},{"start":38141.091,"end":38164.087,"text":"我是想其實我們這個公職人員選舉罷免法應該做個修正因為你現在就是說雙重國籍你可以參選但是你如果當選之後你要才能放棄一年之內放棄會有這個一年的空窗期其實應該像這個總統副總統選舉罷免法一樣就是說你如果具有雙重國籍的話其實你就不能登記參選或是說你如果是不分區的話你就是不能登記為這個不分區的候選人"},{"start":38165.969,"end":38179.689,"text":"委員報告,因為在選罷法以前的67條後來被取消掉,就是會註銷當選立法委員的資格,但是因為過去被註銷掉,所以現在引用的都是用國籍法為原則。"},{"start":38181.05,"end":38209.397,"text":"我是希望說不要有這個漏洞或是空窗期啦就變成說大家就是你在參選的時候具有雙重國籍然後變成說你當選一年之內你才要放棄那就會衍生說像現在這個民眾黨的他這個不分區的立委或是像這一個南投縣這個議員一樣明明具有這一個雙重國籍但是他一樣可以這個登記為不分區或是一樣可以來參選縣市議員甚至搞不好參選立委都有可能啊"},{"start":38210.537,"end":38214.321,"text":"報告委員就我所了解包括縣市議會臺北市議會跟高雄市議會都曾經把我們在民國98年的時候所謂國籍法裡面不允許雙重國籍的部分發給其他的當選的議員請他們簽所以事實上確實有議員本身因為有雙重國籍然後被取消他的當選資格的"},{"start":38233.678,"end":38259.739,"text":"所以我還是一樣就是第一個議會自己本身其實就是所謂的這個民意代表的一個主管機關它是否具有雙重國籍還是按照國籍法的規定能夠做嚴格的把關那立法院呢那我也知道立法院就是要立法院要立法院譬如說可能要立法院院會通過那那個我也知道有些立委也提出比較嚴格的這個修正案謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":38261.527,"end":38263.829,"text":"二、審查委員蔡奇昌等2二、審查委員馬文君等2"},{"start":38282.522,"end":38308.03,"text":"羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員不在賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員不在王世堅委員、王世堅委員、王世堅委員不在陳廷飛委員、陳廷飛委員、陳廷飛委員不在洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員不在林黛樺委員、林黛樺委員、林黛樺委員不在"},{"start":38310.114,"end":38329.435,"text":"登記發言的委員除不在場者其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員高津素梅、鄭正前、洪孟凱所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":38331.337,"end":38353.292,"text":"本日議程討論事項一所列的預算案令定期繼續審查相關預算提案請於113年12月16日星期一中午12點前送至內政委員會會診以利後續審查作業進行報告委員會現在進行宣讀討論事項二所有條文"},{"start":38364.14,"end":38364.92,"text":"徐宇珍委員提高當選"},{"start":38380.267,"end":38391.54,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉�"},{"start":38401.471,"end":38410.762,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�"},{"start":38417.991,"end":38424.957,"text":"提案來進行更專業的對話尤其這也攸關公民朋友的選舉罷免珍貴的憲法賦權所以我是利用這個最後的時間還是很懇切的向昭偉提出這樣的請求我想這個我們在場也有張宏祿昭偉我們剛在台下的商量也是很希望說如果在具體未來進入逐條討論之前"},{"start":38442.871,"end":38443.811,"text":"二、審查委員吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員"},{"start":38470.407,"end":38490.236,"text":"第三十二條,臺灣民眾黨黨團提案,增訂第七項,當選人未依法完成就職選舉委員會應以書面通知其餘三十日內繳回已領取及依前項先予扣除之保證金金額,藉其不繳回者依法亦送行政治刑,但應有不可規則於當選人之事由者除外,其餘同現行條文。第四十三條,臺灣民眾黨黨團提案,"},{"start":38492.637,"end":38515.842,"text":"政定第八項,第一項對候選人競選費用之補貼若當選人未依法完成就職則不應給予補貼選舉委員會應以書面通知其餘三十日內繳回已領取及依第四項先予扣除之補貼金額藉其不繳回者依法依送行政執行但應有不可規則於當選人之事由者除外其餘同性行條文。第五十二條委員陳冠廷等二十五人提案"},{"start":38516.562,"end":38540.439,"text":"第一項中段增訂非政黨推薦候選人未經政黨授權不得在宣傳品上使用政黨負責人頭像、政黨負責人姓名與政黨標章其餘同現行條文。第53條委員翁曉琳等16人提案第一項前段10日前修正為3日前第三項前段投票日前10日修正為前3日其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":38541.48,"end":38564.875,"text":"第67條委員楊曜等17人提案第一項後段增訂並修正為票數相同時各主管選舉委員會應於投票日後7日內向第126條規定之管轄法院申請查封全部或一部分投票所之選舉員名冊及選舉票就查封之投票所於20日內完成重新計票並將重新計票結果通知各主管選舉委員會各主管選舉委員會應於7日內"},{"start":38566.696,"end":38595.165,"text":"一、管轄法院重新計票結果審定選舉結果若重新計票結果人為票數相同時以抽籤決定之其餘同現行條文。第六十九條委員楊曜等17人提案第八項增訂或依第六十七條第一項辦理重新計票其餘同現行條文委員蘇清泉等23人提案第一項前段有效票數千分之三以內時修正為有效票數千分之十以內時其餘同現行條文"},{"start":38596.005,"end":38620.987,"text":"第七十五條委員徐宇珍等39人提案。第一項後段修正為但就職未滿一年者不得為罷免之提議與連署其餘同性行條文。第九十條委員徐宇珍等39人提案。第一項後段修正為且同意票數超過被罷免人當選得票數並達原選舉區選舉人總數四分之一以上即為通過其餘同性行條文。"},{"start":38626.078,"end":38636.491,"text":"討論事項二所列的法案審查,我們另定期繼續審查。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。大家辛苦了,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2198a24c9395639b6731f80df82035e9d5f208e283d81e6f40b8d117be339ca86f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"15:11:19 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二、審查委員吳宗憲等二十七條及第六十九條條文宣告。"},{"start":84.282,"end":104.524,"text":"所以我是希望說是不是我們這個內政委員會也能夠比照一下這個我們司法法治委員會因為你不論在討論這個年金的改革的相關的法案或是來討論這個選罷法相關的議題大家都很重視嘛所以才會有超過六十幾個人在登記但是你看我等一下輪到我"},{"start":105.785,"end":107.586,"text":"審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"157984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd07389b3be2c8b130550d143e698449c70dca3e79c26fb9ca088288fdc86b9d8d4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:43:09 - 10:46:30","影片長度":"00:03:21","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T10:43:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T10:46:30+08:00","duration":201,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.72284375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":24.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.398468750000003,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.48034375,"end":183.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.91784375,"end":201.31596875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.829,"text":"其實時空、環境、背景都跟現在完全不一樣了"},{"start":24.5,"end":25.201,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":41.139,"end":60.401,"text":"現在環境跟106年不一樣現在也不是說我們在討論這些版本我們就反對年改它是持續在調整當中但是怎麼樣的一個調整的方向跟方式是都兼顧到各級層面的我希望朝野黨派可以靜下心來大家好好思考"},{"start":61.062,"end":88.539,"text":"這一次包括物價指數從當時106年的時候其實也已經調整了10%以上所以我認為不是不能討論而是我們來了解一下改革經過這麼一段時間我們軍工教育員員面臨現在生活的挑戰基於過去對國家的奉獻還有基於過去政府對他們信賴保護原則我們是不是有再一次看看哪裡可以調整的必要性這是第一點"},{"start":89.079,"end":106.046,"text":"第二點我今天還有另外一個版本就是公務人員的派用辦法民國五六十年我們任用了一批公務人員派遣辦法那當時是那要他們來去配合我們現在做重要的公共建設我舉一個例子來說現在台北市捷運局現在有高達61%是派用人員那現在還在任的有46人但是還有20人還未滿60歲"},{"start":116.63,"end":119.092,"text":"但是這些人因為派遣派用辦法已經達到落日條款所以這些人現在這些單位裡面是升不上去但是新的活水也進不來導致現在在各縣市很多派用人員"},{"start":132.304,"end":144.458,"text":"其實留在原職然後新的有能力的上來其實也接不上來因為上面這些人其實因為落日條款已經在那邊所以我覺得對於有一些單位人力的老化職務的久任對於機關的長遠的發展絕對不是好事"},{"start":148.482,"end":168.656,"text":"所以我了解各縣市或多或少都有一些狀況那我也非常感謝全市部我們提出來這個派用辦法公務人員任用辦法的調整那全市部尊重本院的提案那我們也希望透過今天我的提案跟好幾位委員不同黨派的提案我希望這個部分能有機會來進入實質的程式"},{"start":171.078,"end":171.298,"text":"實質討論及審查．"}]}},{"id":"157983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd0739e7adaa18febf32ad143e698449c70dca3e79c26fb9ca0889be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:53:35 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nd":40.048,"text":"什麼原因造成因為繳得少然後呢退得早領得多就像火車掉下懸崖不改革或言下兩屆總統這句話誰都可能比較沒印象羅志祥委員應該印象會特別深刻"},{"start":41.149,"end":49.673,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":66.46,"end":90.226,"text":"到底公務人員所有的退休的一個撫卹全部由國家來負責全部由國家來負責那當然就是全民來負責這是不是一個好方法這當然也是一個好方法那還是由基金這個退輔基金的一個成員他的主體就是由現職的公務人員"},{"start":91.408,"end":91.648,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":121.728,"end":131.697,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":145.387,"end":145.767,"text":"二（委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":165.509,"end":177.816,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案"},{"start":192.01,"end":215.994,"text":"這三號大好官會議解釋也許大好官大家都蠻討厭尤其在國民黨的好朋友們你市制第781號市制第782號跟市制第783號裡面啊那個講得很清楚啊所謂政府要負最後的責任不是說誰大家都不用去繳錢大家都不用負責任政府不用去負任何的一個改革"},{"start":217.403,"end":217.663,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":238.506,"end":248.857,"text":"這個可能要好好的來跟社會上做一個對話啦所以我建議啊這一些其實都可以討論都可以討論保障公務人員又可以讓年金不破產"},{"start":249.977,"end":255.5,"text":"這個其實才是正辦啦所以我也在這邊建議啦好議題啊那也過去啊在整個在修法的時候啊也很多受到波及的人也上了街頭表達他們自己的心聲那你重新因為說我們已經經過改革已經省了兩千多億了所以呢都已經省了兩千多億了所以我們再來走回頭路我們就大把大把的鈔票就把它花下去沒關係也可以"},{"start":278.936,"end":279.336,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．"}]}},{"id":"157982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd073b7831983788a75e5d143e698449c70dca3e79c26fb9ca0883f1c478c5b52ad615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:49:08 - 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案 規劃,亦要對歷史來負責,對於公務人員退休的生活保障和退府基金的一個永續要一併來重視,同時我們也要重視社會世代和正義和公平性,橫憑兼顧在制度內的相關每一個族群,同時也要重視"},{"start":164.468,"end":181.562,"text":"每一個世代公務人員都能夠領得到而且要持續領領到勞而且要有保障我相信這才是最重要的也是政府要讓年金制度具有合理性健全性永續性所期待的一個重大目標"},{"start":182.563,"end":205.44,"text":"所以年金制度的這個變革會影響跨世代的相關權益務必要以最審慎的這種態度來面對所以我們還是主張在審查前要召開公聽會廣納民間專家學者的相關意見也讓列席的相關部會有更充分的一個機會來檢視改革這幾年的一個具體成效"},{"start":206.241,"end":219.827,"text":"切莫讓得來不易的這種改革成果成為政治考量之下短期利益的一個犧牲品我希望我們各位委員應該對於這個部分要來多加重視好以上"}]}},{"id":"157981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd073505c897d29a8c3a7d143e698449c70dca3e79c26fb9ca08800ff06c9c86dfe3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:43:09 - 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職的公務人員他們都非常關心那麼年金改革不是只關心到現在正在你年金的退休人員因為年金啊他是一個大水庫是由現在的在職人員他們持續的去挹注而政府呢在過去也都有不斷的在進行"},{"start":113.726,"end":127.57,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":142.214,"end":163.799,"text":"復養小孩、爸爸媽媽、公務員有這樣的一個在公務人員的服務辦法上給予他這樣的一個便利那麼如果是祖父母、阿公阿嬤可不可以我覺得這個也很值得討論因為現在隔代教養也相當的普遍那麼為了鼓勵我們國家教養下一代這樣的提案的內容都很值得我們來討論那麼鑑於本會期是預算會期"},{"start":167,"end":189.345,"text":"那我剛好跟我們的主席我們都分認為趙偉在我所負責的包括我們的考試院司法院總統府人事總處目前呢我們估計在年底之前12月之前能夠盡量的將委員會的預算審查盡量的完成但是呢目前吶相對於我們吳趙對不起我這樣說啦吼我們主席吼目前呢我們的這個預算審查呢"},{"start":191.025,"end":194.967,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":216.457,"end":218.378,"text":"草案．立法院第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議"},{"start":236.184,"end":246.328,"text":"就是對今天的年金改革多達20個以上的法案我們來邀請各界來進行討論我在這裡也來呼籲我們是不是請吳昭偉現在的主席也能夠在完成預算審議之後我們來排定充裕的時間來邀請社會各界來辦理公聽會總而言之我們強調雖然是預算審議會期我們依法要在年底之前至少在委員會部分我們努力的完成我們該進的各機關的公務預算的審查"},{"start":265.976,"end":287.621,"text":"那麼至於重大的年金法案的修改我覺得呢為著因應這個最新的民意我們滾動式的來調整過去就主張五年後就要檢討一次在去年那根據去年檢討的結果未來這個制度怎麼去進行可長可久的調整本席都非常的贊成也在這裡懇請呼籲在程序上我們今天的主席非常的好"},{"start":287.961,"end":288.302,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"157980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd073867d34277a94877fd143e698449c70dca3e79c26fb9ca0887c5064231c774fdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:03:04 - 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text":"四十四凍結十分之一委員鄭振前等提案四十五凍結百分之五委員陳超明等提案四十六凍結百分之五委員邱盈等提案四十七凍結百分之五委員陳亭輝等提案四十八凍結三百萬元委員邱志偉等提案四十九維運國際人才服務及延展中心減劣百分之五委員謝一鳳等提案五十案建全國土規劃及經營管理"},{"start":2259.707,"end":2267.751,"text":"檢驗30萬元凍結150萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案51案凍結20%委員林黛樺等提案52案凍結1%委員張祺凱等提案53案凍結1%委員張祺凱等提案54案凍結1%委員張祺凱等提案55案凍結1%委員蔡易宇等提案56案凍結1%委員蔡易宇等提案57案凍結5%委員陳昌明等提案"},{"start":2288.325,"end":2310.034,"text":"五十八案國土區域離島發展政策與公共建設計畫之審議及協調檢列10%委員楊瓊英等提案五十九檢列30萬元委員陳亭飛等提案六十凍結500萬元委員陳昌明等提案六十一案凍結50萬元委員邱志偉等提案六十二案凍結50萬元委員張祺凱等提案六十三案永續發展計畫之協調推動凍結二分之一委員張祺凱等提案"},{"start":2316.445,"end":2339.362,"text":"六十四、凍結五百萬元委員陳昌明等提案六十五、地方創生之協調推動檢列五百萬元委員陳廷飛等提案六十六案、凍結百分之二十委員蔡易宇等提案六十七案、凍結十分之五委員鄭振淺等提案六十八案、凍結三千萬元委員呂玉玲等提案六十九案、凍結百分之五委員邱盈盈等提案"},{"start":2340.423,"end":2351.809,"text":"70案凍結300萬元文、邱志偉等提案。71案地方創生之協調推動向下業務費凍結10%文、張家俊等提案。72案績效管理檢列50萬元凍結100萬元文、賴瑞榮等提案。73凍結10%文、張家俊等提案。74凍結10%文、張祺凱等提案。75案凍結1%文、蔡宇宇等提案。76案"},{"start":2367.734,"end":2381.081,"text":"施政計畫、績效管理與機制之規劃協調簡列10%委員楊瓊英等提案77案凍結300萬元委員陳昌明等提案78案凍結200萬元委員邱志偉等提案79案推動法規鬆綁革新強化經貿競爭力向下推動法規調適凍結100萬元委員李玉玲等提案80案中興新村北中核心維運簡列500萬元委員陳廷飛等提案"},{"start":2397.182,"end":2418.321,"text":"八十一案凍結十分之一委員張其凱等提案八十二案凍結十分之一委員蔡易宇等提案八十三至九十六案為主決議請參閱二、檔案管理局九十七案檔案管理應用凍結五分之一委員張其凱等提案九十八凍結十分之一委員蔡易宇等提案"},{"start":2419.453,"end":2442.551,"text":"99案﹐檔案應用服務、凍結二分之一文、徵政錢等提案100案﹐凍結400萬元文、邱志偉等提案101案﹐檔案管理應用﹐檔案應用服務、凍結百分之一文、陳廷輝等提案102案﹐國家記憶深化推廣、簡列1億0987萬6千元文、張祺凱等提案103案﹐凍結十分之一文、蔡玉等提案"},{"start":2447.498,"end":2459.4,"text":"104案凍結十分之一委員參與等提案105擴增國家檔案質量與設施創造跨域加值發展檔案學習及教育文化服務"},{"start":2460.586,"end":2488.58,"text":"凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案106案擴增國家檔案質量與設施檢列800萬元委員陳亭飛等提案107業務費向下水電費檢列100萬元委員張祺凱等提案108案省政資料館轉型優化凍結2000萬元委員呂玉玲等提案114年度行政院主管附屬單位預算非營業部分"},{"start":2489.096,"end":2499.28,"text":"行政院國家發展基金一、業務計劃請參閱二、業務收支業務總收入304億6,728萬元業務總支出58億7,928萬2千元本期剩餘245億8,799萬8千元三、截繳公庫淨額無劣數四、軟投資計劃無劣數五、固定資產建設改良擴充5,750萬4千元"},{"start":2517.455,"end":2527.382,"text":"六、國庫增撥基金額無劣數離島建設基金業務計畫請參閱二、基金來源用途及餘處基金來源910146萬9千元基金用途910359萬9千元本期短處213萬元三、結繳公庫無劣數花東地區永續發展基金"},{"start":2541.909,"end":2547.655,"text":"一、基金計劃請參閱二、基金來源用途及預促基金來源600萬元基金用途28億8144萬4千元本期短促28億7544萬4千元三、結繳公庫無劣數促進轉型正義基金"},{"start":2561.628,"end":2570.174,"text":"一、業務計劃請參閱二、基金來源用途及餘處基金來源7038萬元基金用途1億5367萬5千元本期短處8329萬5千元三、結繳公庫無劣數提案部分第一案各項投資檢列5%委員先奉等提案"},{"start":2583.151,"end":2609.831,"text":"第二案檢列1500萬元委員陳亭飛等提案第三案凍結1億2800萬元委員鄭天才等提案第四案凍結1%委員邱盈盈等提案第五案凍結1億元委員賴瑞龍等提案第六案凍結4100萬元委員鄭天才等提案第七案凍結3500萬元委員鄭天才等提案第八案凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案第九案直接投資各類企業"},{"start":2611.255,"end":2640.502,"text":"凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案第10案創業投資事業減劣5%委員蕭一鳳等提案第11案加強投資中小企業實施方案凍結20%委員林大化等提案第12案中東歐投資基金凍結2000萬元委員李玉玲等提案第13案創業天使投資方案減劣8000萬元委員鄭天才等提案第14案減劣300萬元委員陳廷飛等提案"},{"start":2641.311,"end":2650.879,"text":"第15案凍結1億元委員呂玉玲等提案第16案凍結5%委員蔡玉玉等提案第17案凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案第18案服務費用減列5%委員謝一鳳等提案第19案減列200萬元凍結300萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":2661.243,"end":2684.575,"text":"第20案業務費用、服務費用、旅運費向下國外旅費凍結100萬元文章棋凱等提案。第21案服務費用向下印刷裝定級公告費凍結30萬元文章棋凱等提案。22案業務費用、服務費用向下一般服務費凍結2000萬元文章棋凱等提案。第23案凍結400萬元文邱志偉等提案。第24案專業服務費凍結200萬元文章棋凱等提案。"},{"start":2690.53,"end":2703.036,"text":"第25案專業服務費向下專技人員籌金凍結50萬元委員張祺凱等提案第26案委託調查研究費凍結100萬元委員張祺凱等提案第27案業務費用匯費捐助補助分攤救助技與交流活動費減列4億5000萬元凍結1⁄4委員證認錢等提案第28案"},{"start":2717.386,"end":2731.859,"text":"捐助、補助與獎助向下補協助政府、機關購、凍結1億元文章旗開等提案。第29案促進國際生來台、濟流台向下國際產業人才交易專班計畫簡列1億元、凍結40%文證證前等提案。"},{"start":2736.485,"end":2761.923,"text":"三十案短促賠償與保險給付向下各項短促向下呆帳及保證短促凍結5%穩、蚯蚓等提案三十一案投融資業務成本減劣2億元凍結1⁴委員鄭振淺等提案三十二案凍結1億元委員呂玉玲等提案三十三案管理及總務費用向下服務費用向下一般服務費凍結415萬4千元委員鄭天才等提案"},{"start":2765.805,"end":2778.936,"text":"三十四案一般建築及設備計畫凍結兩百萬元委員邱志偉等提案三十五至四十六案為主決議請參閱宣讀完畢我們現在來進行公務及基金的協商稅數的部分"},{"start":2794.315,"end":2806.772,"text":"提案委員不在我們照列也跟張家俊委員有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":2810.491,"end":2836.556,"text":"第2項部分即是有關於沒宣費的部分因為這次比113年度的時候增加了1305萬的增幅高達77%那廣宣費為什麼這麼巨幅的增加的時候當時來說明的時候大概就提到了什麼大溪谷計劃那我覺得大溪谷計劃可能重點不一定是在廣宣費的部分所以我們這邊就先希望能夠先減低1300萬然後剩下的部分凍結1⁴"},{"start":2837.876,"end":2851.501,"text":"那請經濟委員會提出報告之後,請國發部提出報告之後,所以我們再來看怎麼動之以上,謝謝你說的減劣,減劣1300萬我們是不是按照昨天處理農業部,農業部也是3000多萬那最後我們委員討論之後,我們花很多時間討論,就是要減劣300萬"},{"start":2861.365,"end":2880.078,"text":"我們是不是用昨天的標準因為個案每一個部會都會統三如果我沒記錯的話上一屆第8會期應該是統三25%可是你今天還會可能會面臨到統三的問題所以我們是不是比照那個農業部這個檢列就300萬這樣看後來同一個標準"},{"start":2888.807,"end":2910.224,"text":"農業部長馬殺錢規版那現在300萬昨天的結論那是不是我建議委員會是不是就減劣300萬你說減劣300萬是不是對那剩下的部分動不動結有減劣就不動了啦OK好不好好那我們就第二部分就減劣300萬來第3案第4案一起處理來基本第1目的部分"},{"start":2919.761,"end":2943.737,"text":"提案委員有沒有要補充?來張先生第三項我提的是這個行政工作委員會裡面的水電費它有兩大理由一個是政府從行政院長一直到各部會都在強調要省電跟省水然後第二個是我們結構性的問題因為我們現在那個國內河山場一號機跟二號機都停機了"},{"start":2944.597,"end":2961.718,"text":"然後這個河山場1號機也停了那現在再生能源沒跟上來所以現在發電啊看起來都是用火力發電很多這影響到人民的這個健康好所以第一個基於這個省水省電然後第二個減少這個對人民這個健康的這個負擔所以我建議我們就先剩減100萬"},{"start":2968.097,"end":2985.673,"text":"昨天農業部也討論到水電費,不能讓業務辦公也要開會,不然沒水沒電也不行814萬按照訓練標準也差不多,水電部分是必須的"},{"start":2986.754,"end":3011.007,"text":"業務必須昨天我們處理農業部我們是提凍結凍結一百萬請他們提出這個如何節水、節電如何節運能源的具體做法之後我們再行解凍事實上主席其實去到草野協商的時候這筆預算一定是砍的會更多一定是超過一百萬不是只有國科會不是只有國發會這美國部會"},{"start":3015.309,"end":3037.959,"text":"額度一定是更高的因為今年的水電費比去年整整多了15%所以我知道各個黨團現在那個到時候刪減幅度一定比我現在提的更多所以我建議先用這個所以主委不用緊張這個到了這個到了那個超越協商的時候它幅度只會增加不會減少主委不緊張我是很緊張我怕沒辦法開會怎麼會沒辦法開會我跟他報告一下去年去年國發會的這個水電費是734萬"},{"start":3041.618,"end":3070.522,"text":"那今年一下子跳到814啊你如果其他的其他人各部會幅度增加都沒這麼多欸你確定我們都統計過啦你主委的那個主席你是很資深的你到底你這句話你到底自己有沒有看預算書啊我預算書在這邊我看得比任何人會想起去年就724年度今年814嘛那全部的這次所有的部會全部增加的就是15%你看這個幅度已經超過所有部會的嘛"},{"start":3071.135,"end":3073.236,"text":"我們為了這800萬,我覺得這個事務費、例行性的支出,不要為難我們,我們今天要怎麼顧"},{"start":3083.048,"end":3085.01,"text":"主委請說明一下秘書處管水電是哪一個部分"},{"start":3109.527,"end":3110.148,"text":"這個這個說明一下這個我們"},{"start":3113.43,"end":3124.452,"text":"我們上個年度的確我們執行率有到99%那我們其實最有改我們在去年其實也改了我們的冰水機是我們到現在也減了113年較112年其實我們減了59,300度但是因為電費漲價了所以才會有這樣的一個幅度出來是不是懇請委員也幫忙因為最後還是會有一個統三"},{"start":3140.675,"end":3157.07,"text":"那如果這邊砍了再統三其實我擔心我們的水電費會不足啦我請教一下齁去年的預算編列是730幾萬34嗎來國發會"},{"start":3166.399,"end":3190.639,"text":"734.6萬那去年的全部的這個水電費大概都執行完了嗎?如果你們剛剛講有節電5萬度的話對還是提升的因為我們還是因為電費增加嘛電費增加那如果現在張委員提案減100萬就是變714比去年的還要少還要少那到院會再砍就更少啊所以那這樣子怎麼維持以後5點以後全部關燈shut down"},{"start":3191.793,"end":3209.064,"text":"對,因為我們現在加班的比例也高很多啦,所以我們當然現在在推,盡量少加班,那晚上,因為這樣的話晚上可以盡量節電了,那我們也會試著去控制更多。你們那個國發會的所有的節電裝置、節電設備更換的情況是怎麼樣?有更換到百分之多少?"},{"start":3210.357,"end":3238.81,"text":"這個我上次質詢經理部也有提到這件事情公部門自己都沒有去更換節電設備那我不知道你們有沒有你們要更換這些節電設備應該也會反映在預算書上面所以這些設備費用有沒有包含在裡頭那更換了這些節電設備之後你們有沒有預期可以省掉多少的電費設施的費用是一筆嘛但是省下來的電費是一筆但現在談的就是直接省下來的直接要用的水電費"},{"start":3240.669,"end":3256.321,"text":"那你們跟其他的部會相比起來比例有比較多嗎?如果比例沒有比較多的話那我是建議維持原預算數那如果比例有比較多的話那可以調整到跟其他各部會比例相等的水電費的預算"},{"start":3260.921,"end":3277.253,"text":"我們在這個今年的4月我們汰換了冰水機那所以已經在有逐步的汰換我們希望降低這個水電費的開銷了那現在冰水機的效果是可以減下來我們目前統計大概有5萬多度了"},{"start":3277.873,"end":3300.205,"text":"那我們逐步會落實這個節電設備只是這樣砍下來就像委員講的如果就會到710幾萬然後如果到院會再統三就可能剩600多萬那比去年都低很多了事上今年有電費有上漲我想我們是在經濟委員會審查預算"},{"start":3302.881,"end":3326.272,"text":"那因為立法院的慣例就是委員會審完到還有第二輪的就是朝野協商但是我還是建議就是說還是要尊重經濟委員會因為在經濟委員會可以實質去討論可以實質去討論所以不要拿著到這個朝野協商的時候要去看"},{"start":3327.393,"end":3349.79,"text":"因為到朝野協商的時候你們單位都可以再說明不是說沒有說明也不是說統一就多少不見得是如此我們先把這個觀念去導正因為我們現在還沒有進入朝野協商是在經濟委員會做討論這是一點我建議那第二點也就是因為水電費"},{"start":3350.931,"end":3378.591,"text":"大家就誠如邱委員所說的大家都希望機關必須帶頭去做示範那我有歡喜聽到主委說你們的冰水機你明年度預估可以省掉5萬多度那另外呢你說你們會陸續去做因為這個預算是114年那另外你們預計我們要聽的是說預計你們在明年度你可以省掉多少一度"},{"start":3379.572,"end":3404.532,"text":"可以省多少度的電量今天是我們經濟委員會審查預算應該你們一定有一個預估因為在預算的呈現上面文字我們看不到你可以省多少我們這個就是理性討論我想委員給你提議的數字目的也就是要精進那你行政部門應該要有能力來說明我可以省多少"},{"start":3404.872,"end":3421.1,"text":"第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、花東地區第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、花東地區第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、花東地區第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、花東地區第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、花東地區第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單"},{"start":3433.826,"end":3462.965,"text":"但當然也沒有跟我們說要漲所以這個還有一個未知數所以我覺得未知的因子蠻多但是可知的是你機關單位你可以省多少因為除非你的機關有減還是有增這個都必須在數字上面呈現告訴委員我們才能夠有效能的來看數字來分享來討論以上是我的建議我現在聽到這個方向"},{"start":3463.285,"end":3489.225,"text":"好,那等一下統一回答,來張旭凱其實大家去看公報,這幾年的公報跟新聞都會看到水電會是最近這幾年都是討論的一個重點特別是最近這幾年每年都在葬這個水電嘛所以大家會認為說各個部會應該帶頭去省水跟省電這是它一個很重要的所以包括臺灣民眾黨跟國民黨都開過好幾次記者會啦明年所有的這個各部會"},{"start":3490.842,"end":3518.132,"text":"水電會增加就是15%那裡面有幾個都超過15%的司法院超過將近60%我們就要追壓說他到底為什麼這麼多啊中東府25%啊前陣子最引起討論的就是我們的卓院長啊他的官邸不是他喊冤啊他說不是他用的電啊對不對一查一查電就省下來了嘛所以今天這個是很重要我剛才提就是說之前大家已經很好奇這記者會然後到了這個朝野協商的時候第二輪還會進一步討論啊老實講"},{"start":3521.558,"end":3541.326,"text":"國發會算是社會部會裡面表現比較好的啦我記得到時候指揮可以去爭取就是說例如說到時候要統三要統三一個可能額度例如說可能是15%或者是20那你們表現不錯你們可以爭取稍微低一點那我現在提出來的這個三個一百萬這個幅度也是算是少的啦所以我是建議就是說先維持這個我建議的就先減一百萬"},{"start":3543.63,"end":3563.362,"text":"主席,我可不可以建議一下,如果張委員堅持要刪的話,是不是那就回到去年的預算金我來,我來給你建議啦不是,我是主席,也是提案委員,我有我的想法,我說完之後請大家一起答這個齁"},{"start":3567.029,"end":3587.391,"text":"農業部我們處理這個水電費的時候是凍結100萬請你們提出這個節能省水省電的這個方案那我看了一下你們去年是去年大概都730萬左右加上今年的這個水電費有調漲所以適度增加啦適度增加"},{"start":3588.192,"end":3591.233,"text":"我會認為可以拙減,那到100萬是太多了,100萬已經10%、已經15%嘛10%你立委員會,再來15%你差不多月薄就不用開會了,5點就不用開會了,可能開會要點蠟燭了"},{"start":3607.743,"end":3610.825,"text":"主委,我們認為要讓你們達到節省水、節省省電、節水省電這部分,左檢,主委,你們的看法怎麼樣?秘書處秘書處"},{"start":3639.263,"end":3641.424,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":3660.653,"end":3671.577,"text":"我綜合答覆我在我是不是再把數字跟各位報告一下我們113年的預算是734萬6千我們今年是814萬1千那我們增加了79萬5比例是10.8但是我們電費增加11%其實是等比例的增加我還是希望讓"},{"start":3683.741,"end":3692.208,"text":"委員報告這個數字那至於我們明年可以努力怎麼樣努力我想也許我們讓我們秘書室主管來說明"},{"start":3694.774,"end":3718.585,"text":"報告委員基本上我們除了今年在汰換這個冰水主機之外我們在另外一個辦公室就是濟南辦公室也是中央聯合辦公大樓這邊那明年度在整個空調的系統也會做一些改善那到時候會有一些節電那到時候整個濟南辦公室跟寶清辦公室兩個加起來的話這個節電的部分會有一定的效果那另外我們"},{"start":3720.026,"end":3734.153,"text":"我們也有請同仁隨時要注意就是辦公室如果沒有人在的時候一定要關燈下班之後也會請人到各個辦公室去巡查所以到時候一定會有節電節能的效果以上"},{"start":3738.232,"end":3762.795,"text":"我覺得我們審預算不是說無所本這樣隨便喊一個10%、15%、100萬、50萬不是這樣子的那剛剛我很高興聽到秘書處說冰水的部分可以減5萬多度那你保慶跟濟南的你們那個空調要去改也會節省那個有預估可以減多少嗎"},{"start":3764.468,"end":3778.795,"text":"有沒有預估可以減多少?對啊,應該你可以減的,是我們可以減的。你可以減的,就是我們可以減的。對不對?請說明因為這個濟南的部分,它是一個中央空小就整棟大樓的部分"},{"start":3785.362,"end":3806.181,"text":"你剛才說一定可以審嗎?那可以審多少?因為這個是各個部會去分攤的我們只是佔了其中三層樓所以到時候這個可能要再去計算一下所以你沒答案嘛是不是我建議我們行政部門你任何一個預算不是在說數字的問題你任何一個數字都要有所本"},{"start":3807.202,"end":3815.308,"text":"那你今天連你行政部門都說不出來還要審這份預算我們減了50萬減100萬到底是夠還是不夠還是要減10萬還是要減110萬這是我建議行政部門加油啦你要讓人家說得出來啊你到底可以審多少我們會審啊我們會審你要為我們啊我們是要30%、30%、20%、30%幾十%無所本啊"},{"start":3831.431,"end":3854.68,"text":"其實委員這個是不是我齁我們整理一份資料到你那邊去到兩位委員那裡報告好了其實齁我要講很多是非超市在他們齁你說潔能省水這設備是沒有問題但是你要看他婚姻多寡他不多你婚姻多當然會使用水電會比較多嘛這個合理這不是我的好了好了我再處理一下齁沒有用那個齁"},{"start":3859.295,"end":3866.319,"text":"我建議啦我建議北壘就是叫農業部那個凍結100萬提出報告,北壘的4度檢驗30萬因為你股尼執行率99%股尼有3、750萬好不好,但是就"},{"start":3881.843,"end":3893.437,"text":"你又減了齁 那你院會還會再處理齁所以說是不是減那30萬 這樣好了齁我建議還是減那還是減那100啦 不然休息休息兩分半"},{"start":3992.076,"end":4006.669,"text":"主席有主席的話我要發言那個賴立榮先不用發言了那個賴立榮之後李玉琳"},{"start":4008.137,"end":4016.841,"text":"主席各位我是建議這樣因為國發會其實蠻重要的那其實坦白講我不會認為公務機關誰會故意去浪費那個水電那現在如果設備老舊該換就換當然減少水電但是因為國發會我也相信主委上任之後"},{"start":4031.807,"end":4057.822,"text":"明年度的工作一定也是繁重的啦特別國發委的角色也是很吃重那如果你連他的基本的水電都把他給砍光的話我們請他盡量尊潔啦使用但你把他砍光了這個難道他在工作的時候甚至有時候需要加班需要那個時候連水電都不能使用嗎我覺得這個希望大家還是而且他經費其實並不多啦相較其他的部會也都並不多是不是能夠給予多一點支持相較"},{"start":4058.843,"end":4083.839,"text":"大家想一下啦如果我們辦公室同仁在幫我們努力的工作的時候那我們連水電的費用都不給他的話這個真的是有點過於殘忍啦我認為沒有人會故意浪費水電阿如果老舊設備該換就換不要造成這樣結果但是這個經費我真的建議給予支持啦那也請主委啦當然尊潔支出能夠尊潔節省越多越好但是不要請同仁不要去刪這樣的一個預算啦我認為這個對他們來說"},{"start":4085.42,"end":4103.888,"text":"這是他們的工作需要必備的一些經費真的請大家支持了這個賴榮文發言人令人感動言之有理來下一位請李玉琳李玉琳先生我們就主委了好謝謝主席因為我們看到這個水電跟去年度的來比較的話是增加了將近有80萬"},{"start":4105.089,"end":4132.48,"text":"那我們應該是尊爵來節約用電做民眾的表率所以這個嘴電費也會時報時銷啦所以我這邊可以改成主決議然後書面報告如何尊爵好不好這個李議員的翻譯令人感動來 要處理了齁這個我剛剛建議就是減虐30萬民動或者是就"},{"start":4134.87,"end":4159.502,"text":"凍結100萬提出書面報告使得通知好不好凍結100萬跟我們昨天討論很多農業部也是一樣嘛他後面統算都這樣都統算到一定恢復到去年水準好不好凍一百萬提出書面報告啦主委主委你選一個你要凍結100萬還是要330萬法律觀點謝謝委員凍結凍結100萬提出書面報告使得通知好不好"},{"start":4165.519,"end":4188.876,"text":"凍結保安提出數分報審的動作：立法院第11屆委員會第4案改成主決議。繼屬於5到14案：第2目的部分：5到14案關於推動及規劃及推動國家發展業務、綜合業務。有沒有提到委員要說明?還是先請國安會先做整體的說明?"},{"start":4193.609,"end":4215.495,"text":"五到十四關於關於委員關心110年至113年核心CPI的目標那的確在100這個期間一直受到疫情的影響還有供應鏈斷鏈、二屋的影響其實全球都是比較高的通膨那我們相較其他國家我們的確表現的比"},{"start":4216.275,"end":4242.498,"text":"其他國家好很多所以但是但是在在那個期間是沒有的確是有一些沒有達標的情況但是這段期間我們上來之後我們在做了很多減增這個黃雪奧玉等關鍵原物料然後強化進口物質的管理而且我們房子豐台之後其實在113年10月我們的核心CPI已經降到了從原來從已經降到了1.64"},{"start":4244.139,"end":4260.284,"text":"相較於110年的10月的2.97其實相當改善的相當好1.64在全球都是數一數二的成績那而且是連續10個月低於2%了所以反映出來現在物價的穩定那第二個是委員有關聯到我們國家發展計畫"},{"start":4262.425,"end":4279.87,"text":"目前在網站上只有PowerPoint沒有文字檔那事實上文字檔我們在113年8月14日就已經函報行政院我們還在等行政院的核定一旦核定下來我們就會立即上網這一點也跟委員報告那關於在我們這個"},{"start":4282.211,"end":4298.256,"text":"關於也委員有提到這裡面提到公正淨零轉型的部分那我們會持續去做跨部位的協商跟溝通那我們也會依據這個氣候變遷法第46條提出我們的公正轉型的這個成果報告那重新規劃這個績效然後跟機制我們來強化這個資訊的揭露"},{"start":4303.258,"end":4324.192,"text":"還有第4個是委員有關心到國家羽球訓練中心委員非常關心這個運動的部分認為這個建設計畫還未核定那事實上是在我們在113年10月18號我們中整的各部會意見已經回覆行政院我們建請同意這個還帶行政院的核定所以"},{"start":4326.353,"end":4348.286,"text":"五到十四主要是有這四項我簡易的跟國會委員報告來內內容之後邱理寅好謝謝主席我想這個的經費也是相當重要那我想特別是在我特別關注在淨寧這一塊淨寧是臺灣兼具的挑戰那也是一個重要那特別是中南部中南部"},{"start":4348.826,"end":4376.177,"text":"很多的不管是我們的鋼鐵石化幾乎都在中南部這個挑戰非常的艱鉅那我也認為國發會要更積極而加速來做這個相關的一些推動所以我希望你們更詳細的去提出你們具體的報告跟時程那我是提議凍結50萬那提出書面報告後再行解凍那我希望主委帶領你的團隊跟各部會還有跟這個特別是中南部的很多的"},{"start":4376.617,"end":4403.595,"text":"近鄰的需要的大力推動的能夠來協助他們讓他們順利的過這一關同時間這個對於臺灣未來的也非常重要我希望看到你們的書面報告再行來解凍以上各位你可以用做的如果不做等下陳昌明又說我沒有讓你做你可以用做的因為時間會因為我們都坐著等下你不做陳昌明會有意見"},{"start":4405.275,"end":4432.578,"text":"那個邱瑩之后,陳昌明,陳昌明之后,呃,啊,來,好,邱瑩之后李玉琳,李玉琳之后曾俊賢,曾俊賢之后陳昌明,陳昌明之后,陳昌明之后,好,我,謝謝主席,我本來是想說齁,這個聽完主委的報告以後我要改成主決議齁,我的案子就,就不凍結了,但是剛剛瑞榮,瑞榮說凍50萬提書面報告後解凍,那我就支持瑞榮的案子,好,謝謝"},{"start":4433.742,"end":4440.831,"text":"例如案子我不支持我改成組決議我改成組決議我的十幾案我的十三案改成組決議"},{"start":4445.133,"end":4448.334,"text":"這一項是在針對我們國內外的經濟發展做一個規劃跟評估但是我們看到這個4年的國家發展的這個計畫裡面這個110年到這個110的平均值是大概1.3到111到112的話是2.6到2.5"},{"start":4465.339,"end":4467.642,"text":"可見我們國家這個發展計畫沒有全盤去考量國內的經濟狀況所以我們也希望他們做出一個評估報告用書面報告給我們才來解凍我們凍結50萬"},{"start":4481.943,"end":4486.286,"text":"第5項國家給予球訓練中心,10月18日有見請行政院同意。細節是什麼樣子?大概什麼時候會往下推動?"},{"start":4496.974,"end":4524.491,"text":"這部分是不是可以再進一步的說明因為這是那個建議委員他這邊特別請託的部分因為這是當時那個李洋跟王晴他們得到第一次奧運冠軍的時候那蔡總統同意那要推動的事情以上謝謝好那下一位陳昇明首先我請教主委啦要不要看一看"},{"start":4525.58,"end":4546.741,"text":"你們在規劃及推動國家發展綜合業務裡面那裡面推動淨零公正轉型淨零就要推有沒有什麼公正不公正的轉型為什麼會加上這一句話淨零哪裡不公正我們才剛剛在推為什麼要寫一個公正轉型"},{"start":4547.987,"end":4571.914,"text":"我看不出來,跟我解釋一下,不然我全部懂喔雖然我沒有提出來,我可以臨時提出來為什麼我們淨零裡面要加一個公正轉型這到底這個名稱怎麼來的,我想不出來那顏色要那麼重嗎?都要公正轉型,不公正、不公義轉型為什麼推動淨零要加一個公正轉型,我看不懂"},{"start":4573.055,"end":4580.86,"text":"而且才這兩年前才開始推動這個的啊我們哪裡地方不公正不然把這個有名字取消掉"},{"start":4582.524,"end":4597.668,"text":"淨零就淨零轉型怎麼會多了一個公正轉型那表示現在在推的很多都不公正的啊綠電啊什麼不公正的所謂由你所謂要變成公正轉型這個名稱不要亂洗啊"},{"start":4606.267,"end":4612.93,"text":"指揮打呼一下你不要急著這麼快就結束了國會大家都是很仁慈的因為國家推展計畫我希望我們國會你們現在我們面臨的一個問題"},{"start":4627.818,"end":4643.043,"text":"關稅保護主義跟自由主義這個對得很厲害美國已經變成一個保護主義的國家但是我們台灣要如何去應用這個我覺得這個要了解那像我們的離岸婚禮"},{"start":4644.465,"end":4649.55,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院國家發展基金、花東地區"},{"start":4662.942,"end":4688.653,"text":"所以我們這個都要去考慮好不好我是覺得這方面國家的規劃裡面重要還有國產化已經消失掉了當時先是我們離岸風力要國產化現在一到這個地方一打下來全部都沒有了國產化自由進食那早就可以早不然你就自由進食嘛完全都沒有把這個"},{"start":4690.795,"end":4705.39,"text":"國產化資助率提升這政策一變再變我們不能相信這個政府現在這個政府常常我們會很倒霉你不要對著我微笑我把我的感想說出來聽您一句話如沐春風大漢逢剛臨"},{"start":4707.421,"end":4710.343,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":4733.92,"end":4761.168,"text":"我都一直說國發會是整個國家行政體系當中非常重要的頭腦跟心臟但是我們發覺政府在橫向的組織各自做各自的那沒有一個leader去統合國發會很重要的角色就是這個統合那你這個統合放到司令下去國會差的一點是什麼我個人的見解就是在督導方面"},{"start":4762.148,"end":4787.903,"text":"你有責你有權你就有責當你這個權力下去的時候你的責任你要怎麼去督導我舉例現在這個公平委員會裡頭那個公共工程委員會他在月底這個月底主委說把他的材質的碳的部分他們在月底要公佈因為現在公共工程委員會標的案子"},{"start":4788.843,"end":4796.906,"text":"超過4次以上標不出去的逐年再增加那會影響我們國家的一個競爭力所以我們政府要有責任那重點是你要解決他的問題"},{"start":4804.369,"end":4806.031,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算基金、花東地區委員會及所屬單位預算基金、花東地區委員會及所屬單位預算基金、花東地區"},{"start":4828.529,"end":4851.685,"text":"公共工程委員會要公布,如果不知道就成了我說的橫向的組織你都不知道你怎麼去督導你怎麼去督導,因為你是制定政策很重要的決策者這是很重要,重大國家的決策都必須要經過國發會所以我有一個建議,就是預算不要動也不要,因為實在沒搞"},{"start":4852.305,"end":4875.775,"text":"各個所有環境部他們的碳足跡什麼是要公佈碳藍圖什麼是要公佈碳費出估一公噸三百五年要付錢付那我們要怎麼樣零碳的這個制度要怎麼去做我如果到1800我跟你講我看了不了我乾脆收起來我如果300 OK可是我緊張的是什麼我希望在300的時候就輔導他們你慢慢去減碳"},{"start":4878.416,"end":4879.537,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":4896.33,"end":4910.084,"text":"國發會要去將你推動的淨零的這個部分你預計在我們政府橫向的部分到底是怎麼樣而不是你自己我們淨零在其他的預算都剩幾十億了只有你國發會才1620萬我覺得這個預算編列的很奇怪本末導致"},{"start":4919.488,"end":4944.026,"text":"本末導致頭輕腳重你是頭啊你反而是輕啊這個邏輯很奇怪啊你就沒辦法去督導所以我真的我一直在說我們用觀念制度因為在國發會裡頭觀念跟制度是佔於一切啊所以我建議我的建議啦是不動也不刪但是要有一個決議主決議就是說在國發會推動這個向下你們要"},{"start":4949.07,"end":4969.872,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4970.172,"end":4995.944,"text":"主委你說我們的青松基海、我們東坡、澎湘我們的廠商都跑到德國、美國、歐盟地區在看耶在看基海耶 我很感動耶我們的民間的跑比你政府還快所以你要把那個計畫做出來這是我建議的一個主決議姚委員所言甚至是會頗為正統那個張希凱 張議員之後賴慾龍 之後我們就處理"},{"start":4999.315,"end":5021.797,"text":"對啦,國發會非常重要是國家發展的火車頭啦這比規劃跟推動國家發展計畫綜合也很重要不過他現在有兩個問題啦主委先不用緊張我會支持可是這出了兩個問題我上個禮拜有質詢你這個題目嘛對不對他至少出了兩個很嚴重問題第一就是你的那個114年的那個績效指標"},{"start":5023.629,"end":5051.949,"text":"目前還沒定出來吧你1、1、2、1、1、3我之前都有看那一天我就跟你講了你要趕快拿出來要趕快很明確的拿出來就是112年跟113年我都看到你有非常具體的指標目前114年你只有定了說召開委員會會議至少兩次啦什麼落實實體公眾諮詢至少十場只有這個所以你要趕快把那個後面那個東西指標把它列出來這是一個啊第二你這個計畫是要推動這個"},{"start":5054.284,"end":5064.811,"text":"近年公正轉型啊結果你看那個全球氣候會議46個國家那去年排41名今年40名都掉車尾啊啊你是火車頭結果你提的這個計畫目標定了沒有達到嘛對不對所以我現在要兩個東西一個就是我剛剛講的就是事實上也是呼應楊瓊英、楊委員講的"},{"start":5080.439,"end":5100.554,"text":"你提了這個計畫出來你要具體的這個指標趕快拿出來給我們看這是第一個趕快補給我我上禮拜已經跟你要了對不對你到目前沒提出來這個不是給張祺凱是給全民看國發會對於這個計畫他要怎麼樣達成他的指標是什麼樣子每個時間點他要做多少事情你111年跟112年跟113年既然都有114就要趕快提出來然後第二個"},{"start":5105.177,"end":5125.69,"text":"老是在國際上很沒有面子你同志前在那裡笑啊對不對你的好朋友同志前在那裡笑啊那特別都吊車尾啊今天坦白搞不清楚知道很差的嘛臉上都無光嘛所以你要怎麼樣讓我們不要你說明年可能至少爬到三十幾名去啊四十六個國家每次都在四十一、四十好不好這要很具體可以怎麼做好不好那如果是這樣的話"},{"start":5127.37,"end":5145.505,"text":"我可以把委員來這個凍結100萬看用什麼方式例如說你在一個禮拜內或兩個禮拜內不是只有給經濟委員會你要跟前面講你的具體指標是怎麼樣然後你明年這個評比的時候你說什麼名次可以往上再爬升不要在國際上被笑好不好那如果這樣的話到時候再解凍這個預算先凍結100萬好不好來那個蕾榮市委請這個主委重複答案"},{"start":5149.729,"end":5174.747,"text":"我還是要提醒就是說主委其實你也了解這個進行轉型很重要啦特別是中南部這確實是相當的辛苦也相當艱困那我的凍結其實是希望主委用你的力道去整合其他的因為你本身也是政委的身份那不要讓環境部或者讓經濟部或其他部會各行其事你要去統籌大家的力量來完成這個國家級的任務"},{"start":5176.208,"end":5196.545,"text":"以及對於中南部的他們的確實壓力跟他們所面臨到的需要輔導跟轉型有相當大的一個挑戰那我這個凍結值希望賦予你們更加重視這個問題我希望50絕對對你們來說並不多書面也很快就可以解決掉但我希望你們認真的去面對善用你政委的身份善用國會整合的身份"},{"start":5198.107,"end":5213.124,"text":"經濟部把這個環境部把其他部會的找來跟地方的找來好好的談一談我希望能夠讓整個這個過程中能更加的順利所以我還是建議能夠凍結50、豬魚凍結然後提書面包後再行解凍那主委檢議後總有答覆"},{"start":5215.34,"end":5236.794,"text":"謝謝各位委員的指導關於賴委員所提這個整合跟書面報告那我們這邊會盡快來處理那這個李委員交代的書面報告我們也會盡快完成提交那鄭委員提到的國語中心主要是現在行政院只要一核定他就可以進行設計"},{"start":5238.075,"end":5262.995,"text":"然後設計之後就可以進行這個往下的整個開標的規劃了所以速度應該是只有在等行政院的核定那陳委員提到的淨林工程轉型這個是的確是兩年前訂出來的我大概跟委員報告一下我們大概看到在做的幾件事情跟您報告一下譬如說風電當時有影響到一些漁場"},{"start":5264.136,"end":5264.617,"text":"委員會提供資訊及資訊提供資訊"},{"start":5283.718,"end":5310.64,"text":"我想委員也很清楚有一些人其實他的利潤是在很邊際在勉強維生那他的影響到底有多大那我們需不需要做一些更多的措施其實我們現在正在起草一個標案我們會委由這個這個臺大的這個這個一個中心去幫我們去做一個研究那因為我們也用數據看了一下有幾個地區有兩個地區其實他收的碳費可能會有比較大的傷害那我們就希望把這個區域裡面"},{"start":5312.401,"end":5335.968,"text":"我們做一個整理出來然後呢在碳費的過程能夠協助那我們當然也同時有協調這個這個這個環境部就是說在這個碳費裡面的時候如果廠商自己開始進行一些減碳的措施那提出報告就可以刪減他的碳費那另外也因為這樣的關係因為大家也不一定找得到有人可以幫他解決"},{"start":5336.688,"end":5344.095,"text":"所以我們才會也去找了環境部說希望他們就他們的專業然後我們也弄一個淨零轉型基金也利用這個機會去讓我們的年輕人或者是有創意的企業家有機會再透過這樣的商機在大家在全球淨零的商機中"},{"start":5354.845,"end":5379.832,"text":"能夠發展一些事業,所以我們也去支持它一個濟寧的綠色成長基金利用這個綠色商機去協助產業的發展跟成長所以我們是多部在做這樣的事情至於提到現在的關稅跟保護的確我們今天晚上其實有一個座談會也在談我們今天晚上是比較跟企業"},{"start":5381.252,"end":5405.235,"text":"那有些部分呢這個我想我們可以委員也是商業專家我想是不是也找個時間我們也來做一個探討跟改善這個這個這個那楊委員我真的非常感激謝謝楊委員對我們這麼大的支持但是您督促的事情也很重要就是我們怎麼去把橫向的部分要去做得更好"},{"start":5405.976,"end":5432.966,"text":"那我們剛剛楊委員的指導看起來我們可以我們應該再更加強了我這邊會也會整理一下一個書面資料報告那另外在張委員提到我們114年指標我們在12月3號已經回文到您的辦公室了12月3號那我們有整理出所有的指標再重新再重新調過一次在是不是我們也"},{"start":5434.406,"end":5458.184,"text":"如果需要進一步說明我我我我去跟你們做跟您報告一下說明看看我們後面怎麼來改善這個也謝謝幾位委員給我們指導了好這個處理好我跟楊小英跟陳昌明我們都主張好照列啊都用跟邱瑩是動50張靜雅是動100啊我建議值不值得中啊動50萬啊動50萬提出書面報告啦好不好"},{"start":5463.045,"end":5481.778,"text":"公證你怎麼樣解決?要不要取消掉?我講到顧法是要取消掉,表示他們做了不公證,執政黨這幾年做了不公證,怎麼轉型就轉型?那個公證陳昌明委員說那個是不是名稱部分在一併在書面報告裡面署名,書面報告裡面在針對這部分,書面報告在提出來,謝謝"},{"start":5498.793,"end":5510.675,"text":"因為這很重要,就是針對於淨雲碳排的部分請國發會跟這個相關部會你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎?你會寫一下嗎"},{"start":5518.782,"end":5542.277,"text":"這個主席的提案,這個第22案跟這個25案我改成這個主決議22案到25案好,提案委員,來賴銳榮好,我的第18案我跟從主席的,我會改主決議好,那其他委員沒有意見的話,來李玉琳"},{"start":5544.748,"end":5553.274,"text":"我的案子是20案這個是在分析各國在創新的經濟領域我們看到110年到113年總體計畫達成的情形來看大概都在這3.3%到3.7%但是我們看到的這個數值跟他們評估的都未達成大概在2.59%"},{"start":5568.285,"end":5571.886,"text":"那現在要提出來114到117的計畫那可見的我們國發會這邊應該要再加強執行計畫的管理提出一些書面報告如何去穩健這個經濟狀況那我先提凍結200萬好來就贏"},{"start":5588.414,"end":5609.726,"text":"主席謝謝我的案子是23案那我想這個案子我覺得對於未來的整個新經濟政策的關聯性大家都非常在意剛剛旅委員提凍結200萬我覺得有點多因為他的總預算大概也只有550萬那是不是我們可以調整一下凍結50萬好不好好來曾振賢委員"},{"start":5618.343,"end":5641.819,"text":"本期提案是第15案那是針對那個因為整個臺灣目前中產階級消失情況非常嚴重然後貧富差距在擴大所以怎麼樣解決貧富不均的問題跟產業販不均的問題就是本期對這邊特別關注所以希望國防部會這邊能夠提出一個報告然後我們再解凍這邊的主張是凍結10%好那個主委中央雜誤一下"},{"start":5649.426,"end":5657.029,"text":"謝謝三位委員李委員交代我們要去努力改善GDP我們提書面報告我們這邊會來一定會提書面報告給委員向委員報告那邱委員謝謝邱委員對我們的支持"},{"start":5668.773,"end":5692.332,"text":"政委員提到中產消失跟這個產業不均我們也會提書面報告來跟您說明那甚至我也願意親自跟您分享更細的看法那大概我們會努力實現三位委員的要求好 各位委員那這個大家都有共識了那整個幕我們是不是凍結100萬折衷一下因為黎玉琳是200嘛然後"},{"start":5695.374,"end":5711.899,"text":"整個木是不是凍結100萬提出書面報告那這樣我的18案我也就一併凍結好不好我就一併凍結就一併改入凍結一起凍結我的18案你不是已經變主決議的就改掉就好了改回凍結改回凍結那變來變去沒問題的你到底是怎麼樣你是凍60"},{"start":5721.195,"end":5722.116,"text":"道吉案"},{"start":5752.398,"end":5770.009,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5772.267,"end":5797.749,"text":"我先提一下這個其實我們綠電的發展是國家重大的政策也是一個正確的政策但是因為地方上的執行的時候出現很多綠電蟑螂所以導致整個變成整個被抹黑被攻擊的很厲害那我認為其實國發會應該要還是要用整個比較高的高度去協助跨部會間不管是跟經濟部跟農業部跟其他相關部會間要去"},{"start":5799.01,"end":5822.091,"text":"這個協助我們現在能農電跟漁電其實建設的落後我們目標其實是落後的那我是覺得國發在這件事情上面應該多多去協助跨部會間的一些溝通跟協調特別是主委有政委的身份我建議這一塊我們足以凍結那也希望督促國發會要能夠善加這些協調的工作讓我們這個綠電的政策能夠達成國家的一個目標以上好請上銘"},{"start":5827.676,"end":5852.698,"text":"其實國外會的角度跟態度非常重要尤其今天談到促進社會發展及計劃審議協調那現在我發覺到哪個地方譬如你們講要電而不設電廠要處理垃圾或是廢棄土的問題大家都不需要在他的地方"},{"start":5853.439,"end":5869.459,"text":"那我是建議如果重大的計畫如果有國家國會發一個文認為這個地方有需要一定要設立才能促進地方未來整體的發展像現在桃子苗大溪谷計畫"},{"start":5870.8,"end":5895.346,"text":"那麼龐大的一個計畫你的廢棄土還有各種廢棄物的處理一定要去處理要去處理但是地方抗爭那我希望你們在大西湖裡面計畫裡面要提醒到要做這個計畫以前所有的廢棄物的處理一定要做處理廠出來你先試一下地方的政府才會強有力"},{"start":5896.306,"end":5922.003,"text":"不然現在到處都在抗爭你們說促進社會的發展計劃審議的協調其實以你們的高度下去講為什麼我們要核定這個對地方有什麼需要到底對地方有沒有產生一種傷害或是損害的都要列的清清直直給大家不然再推展會造一道很大的困難"},{"start":5923.064,"end":5942.029,"text":"因為都模糊不清成年大使計畫每一個計畫裡面都應該跟我設置這些東西我才給你們過就沒有話講好不好這一點可能細節看起來是細節但是對於計畫的推動都很重要好請劉主委來做答案"},{"start":5943.951,"end":5971.719,"text":"好這個那委員特別提到這個龍魚店這個怎麼樣去讓讓這個大家可以比較能接受這個是我們今年的重點計劃我們已經有有有幾個計劃就是希望讓龍店之這個龍店之間有一些示範案場讓大家可以看到比較好的成效那魚店的部分我們現在也探尋了幾個不錯的案例那同時我們也在寫"},{"start":5972.699,"end":6000.175,"text":"協助協商這個農業部跟經濟部,譬如說,呃,農電業者不需要再去再去養魚了,讓漁卿可以免費利用這個地方來養魚,那我們會,呃,是不是我們也,呃,整理一個書面報告,呃,給賴委員,那另外在這個陳委員提到的,像桃竹苗這些,我們會有一個書面報告,也會帶一點小行動,那我們也會跟您來做一個說明,"},{"start":6002.427,"end":6004.068,"text":"主席的提案是在3月4日改成主決議。"},{"start":6022.564,"end":6034.512,"text":"主席我的案子是33案33案我們是可以支持但是他要提出一個書面報告看對整個擴大台灣對全球經濟的影響力的一個報告這個我可以改成主決議"},{"start":6035.891,"end":6055.401,"text":"三十三案改組結那三十五案我們是在提到要吸引國際的那個IC設計的這個創新的團隊能夠到我們臺灣來設計研發一些能量那可是我們看到這所有的資料來顯示說像112年的話它的產值大概是352億的美元占全球的21.3%"},{"start":6057.623,"end":6078.783,"text":"雖然是名列第二但是跟美國相比的話還是差了三倍那這一部分的話必須要有提升的一些報告那尤其是我們國發會他們樂觀的看待說未來的發展會提升到40%那這一部分我們希望他也給我們精進的一個書面報告所以在這邊我先凍結了一千萬"},{"start":6082.977,"end":6096.84,"text":"這個國家為了促進產業發展這個計畫相當重要那事實上包括現在的AI、人工智慧包括IC設計這些都很重要但過去這些東西多數是在偏北部那我們看到亞洲矽谷的計畫3.0的計畫裡面我們看到了"},{"start":6099.581,"end":6114.541,"text":"整個在北部或在林口這邊有做的相當多那我們認為其實應該還是要思考這個均衡上的發展所以我凍結150萬我希望國防會提出更嚴謹的一個思考之後然後提分報告再行解凍"},{"start":6116.426,"end":6131.446,"text":"本期提的是第30案當初這個提案的時候經過那個國發會有來辦公室說我本來有個點是說行政院還沒核定你們有來說明說已經有了所以我會把這個"},{"start":6133.428,"end":6151.176,"text":"本來要凍結的改成主結議可是我的要求是特別是AI的這個發展上面我要求你們要定這個分臉要把那個執行的那個計畫跟進度有一個具體的這個指標你把這個你的計畫就是我這個提案裡面的這個內容給我一個書面"},{"start":6156.598,"end":6169.331,"text":"楊卓英發言針對於這個產業發展的這個部分我還是想要聽主委你運用這筆預算的方向到底是什麼"},{"start":6169.872,"end":6188.985,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6189.286,"end":6199.745,"text":"還是各自分工還是有跌床駕屋坦白講如果說我們臺灣光光以我中部地區我的中科"},{"start":6202.397,"end":6224.994,"text":"機械類、手工機、工具機、機械類、美林組件這些都是全國最重要的基地如果說只有以這個預算來講真的你幫不了我們產業什麼就剛剛我說的我們的產業自己好辛苦跑到世界各國現在都跑到甚至到印度去都一直在走"},{"start":6225.674,"end":6241.817,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6242.304,"end":6267.25,"text":"有能力的廠商就是如此但是沒有能力的廠商他不知所措這是我在基層非常...非常...有一點...對我們的產業那所以因為我看到這個預算這個...這個...這個目我沒有提案因為我覺得他預算是不夠的但是我不知道你的方向陳如婉剛剛所說的是你這個做還是各部會合著做"},{"start":6268.935,"end":6283.242,"text":"預算是怎麼分配我們在預算書上面看不到看不到因為我的結果論是說我的產業的確需要協助我希望天天主委你的方法怎麼做謝謝"},{"start":6293.557,"end":6319.164,"text":"對的,我在他之後再發言,來謝謝,我想就是說現在其實我們現在似乎加了一個AI然後我們就可以無限上綱然後會有很多的預算可是真的AI怎麼真的帶進到我們整個物聯網的創新發展"},{"start":6321.943,"end":6333.299,"text":"那這個AI到底跟現在我們已經在進行的整個資訊有什麼差別它的升級可以升級到什麼程度"},{"start":6334.79,"end":6338.171,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":6358.78,"end":6359.4,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":6381.324,"end":6404.264,"text":"這個物聯網的創新發展我們的強化的重點會是著重哪裡因為這邊總共編了4億多那前面因為有AI那有4億多那問題是這4億多我們要怎麼去幫忙產業幫忙這個物聯網因為這個有很清楚寫到就是物聯網"},{"start":6405.871,"end":6419.348,"text":"那要怎麼幫他是不是可以說明一下那有些哪些人可以進入到這個載門因為4億多現在看是很大可是實質上如果要到產業是很小"},{"start":6420.563,"end":6438.242,"text":"所以我們看的是瓦加的AI有4億多可是真的回歸到這個產業大家分的是很少很少那這個載門我們大家怎麼進去我想這個我們是比較希望去聽到一些方向跟目標 謝謝好 這個現在輪到我發言"},{"start":6443.308,"end":6467.267,"text":"這個促進產業發展這6億多這個換寡又換不均促進產業發展當然這個我跟楊瓊玉的看法是一樣這個要把餅做大才能有效去協助產業發展經濟委員會很多大多數的委員都來自中南部中南部是為中小企業為主傳統產業為主所以剛剛賴院長提到說"},{"start":6471.548,"end":6493.994,"text":"還有陳廷平也提到說怎麼樣針對這筆預算能夠多一點在中南部來協助中南部產業的發展特別是微中小企業不要只集中在這個北部我之前提到的國發基金也是如此國發基金很多的這個扶植的這個產業都基本上台北市、新北市為主"},{"start":6495.374,"end":6508.708,"text":"幾乎沒有一家是在南部、高雄、台南所以我希望說我們這筆預算會支持但是希望主委能夠在明年度針對這筆預算能夠多爭取一些讓這筆做大"},{"start":6510.799,"end":6528.633,"text":"能夠協助更多的產業另外從臺中、臺南、嘉義、高雄、台北基本上比較少的這筆預算的協助我希望能夠你們拿出實際的作為的好,那請主委綜合答覆之後我們就處理"},{"start":6532.18,"end":6553.034,"text":"非常謝謝這個委員的支持我們會用書面報告向您說明我們怎麼去改善跟提升我們的這個結果這個我想這個我們會依委員的指示辦理那大委員提到的是南部的發展"},{"start":6554.375,"end":6568.218,"text":"我們現在其實一直在強化均衡臺灣我們針對這個南部也有一些會有一些計畫我們是不是也用書面的跟您報告讓您清楚掌握到我們現在的做法張委員提到AI的發展整個執行的計畫希望我們有一個計畫書我們也會把這個計畫書交付給張委員"},{"start":6579.58,"end":6602.352,"text":"楊委員提到怎麼去整合跟分工的部分事實上是的確這個整合是在國家發展委會在做整合在分工到國科會、經濟部、速發部這些單位我們是希望這邊我們是不是找個時間我去跟您報告一下我們怎麼去做這樣的一個整合跟"},{"start":6603.532,"end":6627.55,"text":"與處理也聽聽看您的意見我們一起討論一下怎麼考慮到中南部的業者陳委員特別提到AI如何帶動物聯網產業的發展怎麼去做好執行也考慮到南部的基層我知道您也安排了好多場在南部的一些座談有其他的不會過去"},{"start":6631.053,"end":6631.574,"text":"第2項第3項第4項第5項"},{"start":6651.73,"end":6679.5,"text":"在明年會有一些新的變化出來那另外就是在中小企業在邱委員特別提到這個中小企業如何在中南部那當然也謝謝這個邱委員這個的要求我們其實在國發基金會在南部也也會開始展開辦公室那我們也因為您的要求跟楊委員的要求我們也會在中部都會開始在國發基金也開始增加量能在中南部的提升在新創的部分那"},{"start":6680.74,"end":6702.888,"text":"那我們希望在中小企業的發展呢事實上我上禮拜也有找到郭部長那郭部長是跟我講說他這幾天有找南部的扣建業者那來開始進行也進行一些溝通看怎麼樣去協助那我想這些我們都會都會好好的來檢討那把書面報告交付"},{"start":6706.024,"end":6733.546,"text":"好 這個郭部長是我邀請他去的那我也在邀請這個主委去跟中南部的微中小企業或者工會做一些座談瞭解說這個從國會角度可以怎麼樣協助包委員會是不是這樣子我衷心大家的意見整個第5幕的部分我們凍結千萬第5幕關於凍結千萬提出書面報告各項書面報告提出書面報告的時候使得動之"},{"start":6737.279,"end":6762.757,"text":"指揮 凍結新聞好 是來 我們處理第6目的部分第6目是從36案到49案36案到49案主席的提案在48案我改成是一個主決議各提案委員有沒有意見來 楊瓊玲之後張喜凱 張喜凱之後李玉琳"},{"start":6764.302,"end":6780.52,"text":"謝主席、楊軒發言本席的提案是42案也就是促進人力資源發展推動人口及移民政策強化延攬國際人才那這個部分本席在委員會的時候也跟主委討論過"},{"start":6781.821,"end":6790.347,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院、離島建設基金、花東地區一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":6810.94,"end":6825.509,"text":"其他國家不講難民其他國家就可以進來算到人數到的時候他就又把圍牆關起來他是用這樣子去補足他美國基本盤的一個人口數量的一個基礎美國是如此"},{"start":6826.189,"end":6854.412,"text":"那亞洲地區像日本他就不是如此他只要你要移民的話那你必須要有整套你要律師醫師他整個給你控管但是似乎到我們臺灣我們對於整個人口的跟移民政策我們沒有方向我們也沒有限制比如說早期到澳大利亞的鳳凰城幾乎都是金融界去都經濟給不起最後在那裡尾巴完"},{"start":6855.152,"end":6858.153,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":6880.942,"end":6903.526,"text":"那第二個就是人力資源的方面那經濟部長也一直說從原先的3000個這個工程師引進的這個這個外資投資的部分那現在又改為1500個我也不了解因為我們沒有看到內容只有給我們數字由原先的3000個改為1500個我問我問了部長一句話我說那到底我們自己這國我們中華民國我們的"},{"start":6909.847,"end":6913.051,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院總預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":6926.528,"end":6926.648,"text":"第2項第3項第4項"},{"start":6942.631,"end":6946.594,"text":"建設基金、離島建設基金、花東地區建設基金、離島建設基金、花東地區建設基金、離島建設基金、花東地區建設基金、離島建設基金、花東地區建設基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":6967.188,"end":6969.529,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":6985.794,"end":6986.895,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算基金、離島建設基金、花東地區委員會及所屬單位預算基金、花東地區"},{"start":7012.774,"end":7041.181,"text":"我們要怎麼樣去搶人如果你從你的法律面、制度面你沒有去改你永遠找不到像那個朋友他還說我想要回去英國我千萬不要千萬不要你的太太孩子都在這裡所以我們還在幫他努力那我覺得這麼好的條件為什麼我們不行把這個人才留住呢我們應該要有彈性的處理我希望做整盤整體的一個規劃所以這個部分我本來我很生氣因為我得不到答案"},{"start":7041.681,"end":7063.336,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7063.649,"end":7091.66,"text":"本席提的是第37案促進人力資源這個發展預算數是9181萬市場價解決的就是剛剛楊瓊英、楊偉文提的我們全世界都在搶國際人才那省紀部在112年的決算審核報告他提出了兩個方法就是他解決剛剛楊瓊英、楊偉文講的第一個他說國發會有成立一個資料庫"},{"start":7093.841,"end":7121.122,"text":"要把這個怎麼樣去延攬國際關鍵人才還有提供外籍人士在台工作前方位的諮詢服務還有充實這個資料庫那省紀部很清楚地說這部分做得不夠要強化這是第一個提的第二個問題是這牽扯到各個部會那國發會在整合跟整合方面這部分可能也要再加強所以本席非常具體的提案我們先凍結"},{"start":7122.903,"end":7146.218,"text":"凍結預算的十分之一然後呢我們去強化跟解決剛剛省紀部所提出來這兩個問題就是這個海外人才資料庫的建立要再強化你怎麼強化提出來第二個各個部會之間整合怎麼整合提出來之後報告完之後我們再解凍這十分之一的預算謝謝下一位請李玲 李玲社區議員再來我好不好"},{"start":7147.782,"end":7148.864,"text":"好,我的案子是40跟40"},{"start":7153.677,"end":7181.442,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7181.482,"end":7189.167,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":7210.721,"end":7231.667,"text":"發展空間所以我們希望我們國發會在這邊最整體的這個情形跟就業金卡的使用跟如何在這個就業金卡可以讓他們工作上可以更加友善或是居住的環境各方面能夠讓他們有意願留在我們台灣來做一個發展這個部分也給我們個書面報告這邊我們就可以減動的為1000萬"},{"start":7238.498,"end":7238.818,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7268.23,"end":7293.288,"text":"現在請陳婷筠、陳婷筠、鄭俊賢、鄭俊賢、鄭若龍謝謝主席我想我們是有在做可是我們要怎麼能夠達到我們的目標我們也特別成立了個中心去做一站式的服務但是呢包括我們去處理外國人才來台的申請程序其實這個已經解決了很多人的問題"},{"start":7294.269,"end":7296.55,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":7315.875,"end":7333.847,"text":"這為什麼這就很奇怪以前沒有這樣的一個一戰式服務可能你說因為很多的資料或是很多的申請然後每個單位的關卡不清楚不了解那現在我們既然有一戰式了那怎麼會我們的績效還沒有達標"},{"start":7336.169,"end":7354.252,"text":"所以我認為說大家是希望能夠真正把外國人才引進到台灣讓台灣的企業能夠用最快速互相銜接把我們的整個企業體的量能做大"},{"start":7355.193,"end":7382.369,"text":"這也是我們一直期待說這個國際人才能夠來到台灣然後在我們修法的過程當中能夠做得更經濟然後所以我認為說我們應該還可以做得更好所以我認為說應該先動靜但是我是書面報告即可動之我也是5%然後可動之那另外一個部分可能就是說我們一些修法"},{"start":7383.376,"end":7385.798,"text":"主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":7413.666,"end":7436.519,"text":"好,謝謝各位,之前請知情人之後,待會有人之後就請主委總統答覆。在第6目這邊的時候,所以本期這邊有兩個案,第一個是第41案跟第44案。那第41案這邊最主要是因為,台灣的勞動市場的世界競爭力連續3年都退步。那我們要如何提升台灣的吸引外國人才來台灣的部分競爭力的時候,我們希望有更清楚的一個"},{"start":7437.039,"end":7437.64,"text":"第2目暨國家發展委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":7455.157,"end":7477.332,"text":"增加國際人才的延攬跟人口移民政策這部分其實我們確實是很擔心因為台灣少子化問題真的越來越嚴重那基金部這邊表示說未來5年光是在AI這個產業就要有20萬人的一個投入那裡面有很大一部分一定是針對國際人才的延攬那我們看到那Ten Taiwan這部分的時候"},{"start":7478.052,"end":7479.653,"text":"等到國防部向本委員提出詳細說明後,我們再予以動之。"},{"start":7494.884,"end":7521.454,"text":"好,接下來賴榮,賴榮之後請主委答覆好,謝謝齁,我想國發會,包括劉主委,其實任務是很重大的啦齁特別是在少子化的議題,雖然賴總統跟卓院長加大力道但是我認為其實還有很大的空間啦齁這個當然會成為將來台灣很大的國安上的問題那我希望主委這邊跟國發會要加大這個力道啦齁更提出更好的一些方案出來,孩子國家養"},{"start":7522.374,"end":7538.08,"text":"國家一起養這件事情要把它更跨部會見更落實這個跨部會見一定要需要有國發會用更高的一個高度政委的高度小內閣的這個高度去做處理那另外一個當然就是攬財的部分我們的人才需求持續在"},{"start":7540.341,"end":7559.37,"text":"主委來自企業界我相信你也很清楚知道人才關係到國家的競爭力關係到國家的未來發展但是我們的國家的整個政策上面我認為還可以再更開放一點更積極一點那我認為這個也應該都是賴總統跟左院長非常關切的兩大議題那我希望"},{"start":7561.972,"end":7585.528,"text":"凍結60萬那也期盼把這兩大議題逐位盤點過後提出你更具體一些想法給委員會給我這邊那甚至有些該涉及到修法的那就提出來齁我認為大家期盼的是新的政府上來之後大波大力的去解決掉一些問題齁那勺子花問題纜財問題都是急迫的問題齁企業界需求人才的問題非常嚴重那我們希望"},{"start":7586.769,"end":7610.15,"text":"國會展現出高度,提出一份好的說明報告,然後來落實、來執行。好,這個在主委來討論之前,我講一下,這個我提一個案子,提一個法律案是少子女化對策法,那是參考日本的立法例,我也希望說能夠讓少子女對策化,能夠讓法制化,"},{"start":7610.931,"end":7630.041,"text":"所以是不是主委可以去研究是不是有我們台灣的版本把針對少子化的問題用法律相關的形式來做相關的包括預算包括執行面包括地方政府如何配合是不是研究有一個行政院的版本好那請這個主委重重答覆"},{"start":7633.919,"end":7646.549,"text":"好,謝謝,楊委員對於人力的關注是非常感謝,我們也會去參考美麗的做法,坦白講我們也參考也收集了很多的資料"},{"start":7648.691,"end":7674.112,"text":"我們會針對包括人力資源培訓跟如何去吸引更多的人您這些要求我們都會整理一個書面報告另外您特別提到的臺中建民研區這個案例我想是不是我們再跟委員辦公室請教一下我們看看是不是能夠透過這個案例的了解我們可以為更多的人一起把這些問題可以解決得更好"},{"start":7676.013,"end":7698.489,"text":"那另外在那個張委員特別提到我們的資料庫的部分其實我們是多元在找啦資料庫只是我們其中的一部分目前是占12%在人才進來的部分但是我們怎麼去整合這些多元的通路我想委員指導的很對啦我們會去書面上跟您報告一下我們如何去優化我們的這個"},{"start":7699.898,"end":7720.227,"text":"整合面跟資料庫的發展再來呂委員特別提到我們人口的減少跟青少年的部分我們這邊會找陳時中政委跟衛福部等單位我們會再來整理一個書面報告給呂委員也包括我們攬財跟流財的計畫"},{"start":7723.808,"end":7739.753,"text":"一起順便報告那邱委員提到我們應該再加強也是我們會把我們加強的做法也也會整理給邱委員那陳委員提到外國人才的服務跟績效指標的部分那我們的確這個績效指標我們會也提出一個改善的做法"},{"start":7740.433,"end":7762.111,"text":"要把量能做大跟吸引更多人才還有修法的部分那修法的部分也報告一下我們其實在前天我們在院有報告我們的新的法案還有很多的意見要再探討所以院長只是下個禮拜再開一次原則上我們會應該不會拖很久我們就會把我們的法案給送出來"},{"start":7764.012,"end":7790.394,"text":"這個我們也會把這相關的資料我們用書面的跟陳委員報告然後另外在這個政委員提到這個勞動力的退步的確勞動力在IMD裡面是退步了那本會是負責人口的部分人口的部分是進步了兩名然後從這個排名第20到第18那但是勞動的確有表現的不夠好所以我們會與勞動部共同整理一份報告給這個政委員"},{"start":7791.636,"end":7808.414,"text":"包括這裡面也會把我們的人才跟這個移民的新的做法我們來跟各位報告一下那這個這個賴委員提到少子化跟要加大力度跟跨部會合作跟攬財我們這些也會有一個書面報告其實包括我們有現在有用的大數據"},{"start":7809.375,"end":7822.719,"text":"在做。那我們發現像IC設計這些人才是在美國跟印度最多我們美國已經辦了一個現場說明會我們希望這些台灣人能夠回來那我們辦三場其實有300個人有興趣來聽怎麼回到台灣那這個其實這些回來都是很高階人才那我們的處長其實昨天出發到印度那這兩個地方去印度攬柴"},{"start":7834.062,"end":7852.415,"text":"因爲這兩個地方都是很重要的所以我們有些新的做法我們會跟委員們報告我們如何去改善那邱委員提到這個少子女化的對策我們一定會去做一個整體的規劃因爲我禮拜一下午有跟院長特別報告這個事那他也認為應該要往提高成"},{"start":7854.616,"end":7857.758,"text":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":7880.217,"end":7882.078,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":8393.9,"end":8415.607,"text":"好請一位同仁請回座來現在我們繼續開會我們處理接下來處理第7幕的部分健全國土規劃及經營管理那本期的提案在6、11案改組決議另外就70案的部分也改成組決議提案委員有沒有"},{"start":8424.23,"end":8433.113,"text":"第7目本席一共提了三個案子五二跟五三跟五四三個案子都非常重要第一個是這個牽扯到"},{"start":8434.423,"end":8450.698,"text":"建全國土規劃跟經營管理那這段時間引起很大爭議的就是國土計畫轉軌他現在面臨的法令制度跟功能分期發射還有配套措施這些問題包括現在國土計畫法相關的這個執法都沒有完備"},{"start":8451.839,"end":8474.458,"text":"農一跟農二這個發射議題還有農政資源的這個議題跟原民地區的這個發射都還有非常多問題包括目前灰都市土地開發許可他怎麼去轉軌然後這個整個資源怎麼去整合都有疑義所以如果貿然去實施的話包括就會出現很多的重大影響所以本席要求先"},{"start":8476.3,"end":8484.128,"text":"凍結這邊十分之一的這個預算請這個國發會針對剛剛本席所提這個問題慎重來處理提出一個報告那另外第二個提案53案"},{"start":8486.417,"end":8502.501,"text":"前瞻預算依照審計部的結算報告他說前瞻計畫的第一期到第三期目前為止很多的預算都還是保留沒有完整的然後最新年度很多都轉到113年度繼續執行就高達70億7457萬"},{"start":8511.911,"end":8531.683,"text":"那為什麼會這樣呢?雖然已經一二三期已經到現在都很久了有些已經五年有些三年已經一年了可是有部分都還停留在可行性評估作業還有有些還在招標有些是工程這個進度都是落後的我們請這個國發會要去盯著他們這個進度要去檢討說為什麼到目前還停留在"},{"start":8533.224,"end":8559.286,"text":"這個已經有些都過5年就過3年了進度落後這麼多那前3期之外現在最近是第4期特別預算到113年今年第二季截止的時候包括勞動部有12個機關這個計畫的這個實現力連8成都沒有到請這個國發會特別注意一下提出一個書面的這個報告另外第三個是地方創生的這個問題"},{"start":8561.445,"end":8588.218,"text":"地方創生國家站內計畫從108年開始推動可是我去看了一下到113年的7月底優先推出的這個地區還有30個地方到現在都沒提案我再重複一次有30個地區到現在都還沒有提案而且目前通過的地方創生計畫裡面提案單位沒有提出申請或者是申請以後主動去測案的竟然高達三成"},{"start":8592.183,"end":8599.388,"text":"29.20%接近三成所以裏面有出了很多的問題那地方創生非常重要所以我要求這邊先凍結10%請國發會盡快提出解決方案提一個報告給我謝謝"},{"start":8607.101,"end":8607.281,"text":"姜蕙琳議員"},{"start":8630.211,"end":8633.894,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院所屬單位預算部分關於行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":8653.823,"end":8654.525,"text":"第1項第2項第3項第4項"},{"start":8661.127,"end":8688.694,"text":"那那個法媒如果萬一有被延了那這要怎麼辦那如果沒有的話那我們的重點又是在哪裡我想了解的這個部分所以我有提案所以你會在這裡面就會好像整個計劃當中到底你是要溝通什麼要加強什麼你就會有點重心跟重點會抓不到所以要拜託這個部分要回答一下謝謝"},{"start":8690.524,"end":8707.83,"text":"李玲柔、楊瓊瑛我的提案也是針對於這個地方的創生因為我們現在人口都過度集中在這個都市地方區域的發展就失衡會越來越嚴重那在行政院在108到113年也提出了地方的創生計畫那現在我們國發會在114到117也提出了地方的永續創生的計畫"},{"start":8715.273,"end":8729.762,"text":"但是在134個區域的那個鄉鎮來提出這個推動創生優先推動的這個計畫但是我們看到地方政府的提量非常的不足我們應該去了解他有什麼困難需要協助的面臨的什麼挑戰"},{"start":8730.703,"end":8750.916,"text":"才能夠讓我們的這提案能夠更加的具有地方性跟代表性應該好好的來瞭解這個狀況讓我們的整個地方創生工作可以來順利推展所以我希望我們國防會能夠提出一些精進的一些報告跟協助的方案才能讓地方都來踴躍的提案那在這邊的話我們凍結3000萬好 謝謝下一位楊瓊英、楊建制、陳少明"},{"start":8757.316,"end":8758.317,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":8772.887,"end":8789.026,"text":"本席提案是58案本來我是說要簡略10%我現在改成主決議但是我還是要提醒因為我們現在還有一個很大的金箍罩也就是內政部"},{"start":8790.227,"end":8815.74,"text":"國土計劃法那本席提案還有很多的委員藍綠的委員都希望公告的時間由4年調整為6年甚至還有認為要7年的就是延長2年或3年因為在地方還有很多的縣市政府還沒有辦法充分的去規劃出來所以當地方政府執行者還是地方政府當他沒有辦法規劃出來的時候"},{"start":8816.584,"end":8818.406,"text":"公司公司公司公司公司公司公司"},{"start":8834.324,"end":8834.744,"text":"全體委員會及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":8854.471,"end":8879.345,"text":"因為時間馬上到了到明年的4月20那到底要怎麼做我是建請我們的國發會因為大家的心聲在立法院裡頭藍綠白的委員都希望要延長但是我似乎看到目前內政部是不演似乎看到那我非常希望說就因為國發會主委是心臟啊是頭腦啊政府啊你比較有難啊"},{"start":8880.425,"end":8905.321,"text":"您要去說到底要怎麼做就成了我們面對到的陳情案做到一半的是不算還是要算繼續連這些問題都非常困擾我們非常的困擾我們所以我就我願意把它改為主決議但是我建請主委我們的困難國土到底你政府新的政策明年4月份馬上要到了要怎麼做"},{"start":8906.061,"end":8931.904,"text":"要怎麼做?請告訴我們三個議題第一個,申請案做到一半的算不算?第二個,縣市政府還沒有上來規劃的,要怎麼處理?你不要法執行了人家都還沒有規劃上來,你不要讓他准這個是問題非常的大所以我建議我願意改為主決議但是你請去理清楚,換你去問清楚告訴我們,好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":8936.784,"end":8962.636,"text":"陳昌明、陳昌明之後戴綠榮今天我們這個預算是討論健全國土規劃及經營管理那大家都談到地方創生那地方創生是一個戰略的計畫那一般人都以為我這個計畫來馬上有錢他是逐步推展"},{"start":8963.635,"end":8991.115,"text":"第二、地方的人士一定要了解地方的需要跟發展最先要有概念但是我跟職委講以鄉鎮工作的能力沒有辦法做除了那個鄉鎮長很有心去推動那現在六都以外的縣市政府人力真的不止他有文明專輯各自個人盲個人所以在推地方創生是一個非常好"},{"start":8992.402,"end":9016.537,"text":"值得一個推動那我這幾年還要我聯繫的當選連任立法委員我對地方我算是很了解的人每一個地方怎麼做你一定要去跟他們講地方的需求要聽了以後才能判斷但是在基層的地方他只有現行的工程做了他覺得這樣可以其實不是這樣"},{"start":9017.638,"end":9045.76,"text":"縣政府有沒有薪也是非常重要所以我在處理苗栗縣大概有兩個地方創生可以說是非常非常成功那我首先要感謝我們的黃處長他時那時來做什麼專員的時候我看他到每個地方去都站在旁邊公路級、水保級誰都進來他在旁邊原來主要的角色在他"},{"start":9046.581,"end":9062.333,"text":"但是他又不好意思講因為你們手中沒有錢所以我說一定要規劃費用那我們做這個規劃當初我說你鄉鎮公所或是縣政府你要撥一筆錢好好的去規劃另外一點"},{"start":9064.226,"end":9083.367,"text":"我要提醒你們找了委託外面的專家來他專家來了一下才沒有實地考察沒有真正了解看那個地方就講這個樹木要種什麼地方創生不是這樣要有整體的規劃所以在地方創生裡面真的要堅持去做你才能得到一個圓滿結果我覺得"},{"start":9085.609,"end":9100.895,"text":"我最近很不適應地方創始然後我親自去與福島親自去推動現在把那兩個地方改造的可以說是苗栗縣最有名的一個觀光跟一個休閒的景區而且帶動了很多的人才我是把我的經驗講出來"},{"start":9102.415,"end":9127.751,"text":"所以在國土計畫是因為黃處長你不要看他這樣默默不怎麼講話但是實際是腳踏實地在做的所謂地方創生這一派是要地方真的有心有力的人士要有創意的人士要對企業能了解的時候才能推動一個好的地方創生所以我主張啊這個動靜要動一下司令報告就可以了"},{"start":9128.712,"end":9147.613,"text":"那國土計劃法剛剛大家談到那你們一直在講公正轉型現在的國土計劃法是不公正的轉型欸 欸 劉志偉我會記得跟你聊天你有種過田嗎?你有沒有種田過?"},{"start":9150.463,"end":9169.657,"text":"小時候有參與我阿公的那應該有中還是你是在都市計劃我現在問你有都市計劃都市外你知道嗎我知道現在最重要這個國土計劃都依照現況每一個現況不一樣"},{"start":9172.973,"end":9194.853,"text":"這個國土計畫法把農業的縣市變成農奴的一個縣市沒有發展,農一、農二其實已經改變了很多這裏面你要叫我做國家糧食的安全為什麼要我那個農業縣市來負責任為什麼台北市、新北市、桃園市、台中市不負責任"},{"start":9196.758,"end":9219.014,"text":"這都不對的觀念大家以為喜歡種田,大家不喜歡種田都等著看我這個田地有沒有辦法去變更、去計劃才能那個來沒那麼偉大,人性沒有那麼偉大所以這個計劃你裡面講到國土區域離島發展政策"},{"start":9220.029,"end":9247.065,"text":"以公共建設計畫之審議協調你的責任審議協調這個國土計畫如果你現在給它過你們執政黨馬上倒你沒有想到農民我是講的很實際執行台大電機系畢業的都在點頭贊成啊他們不敢講我大膽替他們講出來啊你們也要勇敢跳出來人生的爭議沒有幾次所以國土計畫法確確實實"},{"start":9249.793,"end":9263.371,"text":"大家反對我跟你講為什麼這個法是國民黨過的民進黨執政8年了不推動現在新的內政院部長要表現他的魄力也沒有協調怎麼樣就說到幾月幾號要來擺寫"},{"start":9266.054,"end":9287.388,"text":"談到了不會啦我把事情講出來啦你站起來叫我不要講話我們替農民都講我曉得你們的苦衷在哪裡啦好不好八年都不做了到現在上任來要做也沒有到地方去輔導去宣傳連縣政府都不曉得這個計畫要怎麼做大家都在打明文章偷貨"},{"start":9288.248,"end":9313.997,"text":"那真的要做就好好的規劃兩年到各縣市去談把這個國土計畫包括農業的政策都要改變這是好的六度而已我們農業縣市會越來越善我希望你們站在那個審議跟協調尤其協調你們出來一定要出來協調這點你稍微加強"},{"start":9318.258,"end":9341.145,"text":"要注意一下你國土計畫41國化會最重要的一個任務在這邊不然說我要推動國土計畫法案過了你就不理其實這國土計畫真的很爛走到哪裡所有的農民都擔心拜託一下多關心一下謝謝你上來我聽你講完話可以了"},{"start":9344.54,"end":9365.172,"text":"講完了是吧?我站起來是跟您致敬我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我只要講到執政黨你就要站起來我"},{"start":9368.124,"end":9387.214,"text":"那下面有麥文之後張旗楷之後就請這個劉主委來中央答覆好謝謝齁我想地方創生對於國家的均衡發展非常重要啦齁那但是我們來看到齁其實特別是在一些地方創生的優先地區也是比較偏向比較需要照顧的一些地區"},{"start":9387.994,"end":9409.148,"text":"那提案的部分反倒是有將近3年之間是沒有辦法順利來提案那包括在國發會的執行地方創生的三、四期的預算執行率也只有53.09這個相當的低所以我是認為國發會可能還是要請主委這邊要更加積極主動他對於通常會到地方創生就希望均衡發展"},{"start":9410.289,"end":9438.447,"text":"相對於偏鄉還有中南部提案能力都比較弱他本身需要國發會加大力道你們要更主動積極接觸不管是鄉鎮、市公所或者區或者是地方的團隊要協助他們他們才有辦法順利的去進行這樣一個提案這對地方的人才留下來或者是返鄉都會有很大的幫助這也是地方創生的目的所以我希望主委這邊要持續加大力道你從剛剛那個只有53"},{"start":9441.149,"end":9460.006,"text":"點09這個樣的執行率真的是偏低啦齁那另外包括優先區域照理說優先區域應該要盡力的推動它就有將近三分之一是沒辦法提出案子來的所以我希望主委重視這個問題加大那個力道齁我們希望各個地方能夠均衡發展啊這裡面當然中南部跟偏鄉會特別明顯齁中南部一樣跟"},{"start":9460.806,"end":9480.024,"text":"很多的國家計劃一樣,中南部的提案能力相對都有一些我希望要大力的支持他們、輔導他們直接到地方上直接跟他們溝通、協助他們把案子提出來我認為這個對於地方穿深會有很大的幫助所以我提了一些動議的部分也希望主委來加大這個力道了好,謝謝好,下一位請張綺凱"},{"start":9485.196,"end":9509.517,"text":"好,這個第7目的第二節啊這個項目叫做永續發展計畫之協調推動我看這個國發會在去年底啊112年12月提出了110年台灣永續發展目標年度的總檢討報告啊,內地啊他有80項的指標結果啊有43項沒有達標"},{"start":9512.455,"end":9536.571,"text":"有43項,三個指標沒有達標其中有6項是連續4年都沒有達標特別是道路交通事故死亡的人數另外一個是臺灣人權歷史戒嚴時期不易移植的參訪跟參議的人數道路交通事故死亡人數不只沒有減"},{"start":9538.035,"end":9561.257,"text":"一時還在递增那今年前10個月還要往上走這個很嚴重他已經是連續4年沒有達標了那第二個這個也很嚴重台灣人權歷史戒嚴時期不義遺址的參訪已經連續4年沒有達標了這兩天最熱門的也是大家最關注的南韓以習業總統的短命宣布戒嚴"},{"start":9562.523,"end":9589.158,"text":"因為對南韓的經濟、人權、自由、民主衝擊非常大現在可能被彈劾然後人民現在在街頭上可是我們台灣也有一些人竟然也主張是要戒嚴的這個跟你沒有落實台灣人權歷史戒嚴時期不亦已止的這個參訪應該也有一個關係所以我本席具體的這個要求具體的這個要求我們先凍結二分之一的預算"},{"start":9590.134,"end":9601.26,"text":"然後請國發會針對怎麼樣降低道路交通事故死亡人數還有臺灣人權歷史戒嚴時期不易移植的參訪跟參與的這個人數"},{"start":9604.332,"end":9621.739,"text":"不要又發生臺灣還有某些人要去學南韓的總統尹錫業要宣布戒嚴衝擊影響到我們臺灣的自由民主跟人權還有經濟發展甚至鬧著國際笑話我們先凍結二分之一算請最近就提出解決方案跟報告謝謝"},{"start":9623.288,"end":9652.106,"text":"好 那個主委還沒回答覆之前這個均衡臺灣一定要落實在政策規劃跟政策執行均衡臺灣這四個字就是大家主要關心的不是偏住偏鄉或是都會區偏鄉就沒有照顧不是中是在北部中南部卻相對比較忽略所以均衡臺灣這個一定要在政策上政策規劃跟政策執行上讓大家都可以感受到好 請主委總統答覆"},{"start":9655.022,"end":9678.82,"text":"非常謝謝張委員有提到這個國土計畫法的部分跟怎麼接軌怎麼樣讓這個執行上比較順利我們會去找那個內政部瞭解然後我們來提一個書面報告看怎麼樣我們來一起來改善然後那前瞻預算的部分我們也會有一個檢討跟這個報告給委員"},{"start":9682.282,"end":9703.301,"text":"那這個尤其是您這邊有提到勞動部八成未到我想我們整體都會看那地方創生的執行的確它在執行上有一些鄉鎮的問題我們自己也會現在也在開始檢討看看再怎麼樣再強化我們會再優化這個部分把這個數量盡量簡化下來"},{"start":9706.885,"end":9720.923,"text":"張委員後來又提到我們在永續的部分道路死亡、人權不宜移植的部分這個部分我們也會整理報告給您看看我們怎麼去做進一步的強化"},{"start":9722.325,"end":9748.052,"text":"那當然當然這個凍結部分也懇請委員思考一下因為這個是國土我們的國土規劃已經大部分都在審這個公共建設還有地方創生為主的預算凍結二分之一是有點傷那因為這幾個都是交通部跟這個文化部那我們會去要求他們然後我們會提整體就是您提的這個所有的指標我們都會給你一個說明"},{"start":9749.953,"end":9766.699,"text":"陳委員特別有提到我們在業務重點要怎麼調整我們也會有一個報告跟委員說明我們怎麼去解決另外呂委員在地方創生的部分對我們要求的改善我們也會有一個經濟報告我們怎麼去協助跟紓困"},{"start":9767.759,"end":9782.044,"text":"那楊委員這個這個有提到這個國土計畫法的部分跟實施那包括一些細節的接軌的方式還有已經申請的做到一半的算不算或者是還沒規劃的如何處理"},{"start":9783.144,"end":9804.026,"text":"我們也會找內政部整理一份報告給楊委員那另外在陳委員提到這個地方發展在苗栗有很成功的案例的確這兩個現在已經是非常有名而且有甚至人潮還蠻多的那我們也會去跟苗栗學習然後看看我們怎麼樣去利用這些成功的案例"},{"start":9804.646,"end":9826.693,"text":"去協助到其他的單位我想我們也會整理這個報告出來然後國土計劃法對農民的確您提到了幾個縣市的溝通對農民的觀感我們也會找這個這個內政部跟這個農業部對農業部我們一起整理一個整合性的資料給您參考"},{"start":9828.153,"end":9856.479,"text":"那另外在這個賴委員提到我們執行率的部分還有對於這個對中南部偏鄉的部分要怎麼樣去加強跟改善怎麼去設定一些優先區域的強化我們也會整理資料向委員進行報告那另外張委員也特別提到這個張委員剛才我們已經報告過我們都會交付那以上我們都會落實的檢討提書面報告"},{"start":9861.188,"end":9867.617,"text":"各委員提案我綜合一下楊全英委員是支持所以改成主決議賴克榮是凍結150萬主席是凍結300萬陳昌明是凍結500萬"},{"start":9877.674,"end":9903.083,"text":"主委沒有針對我的那個問題有稍微就是說那個國土規劃因為你的那個整個你強調的是健全國土規劃跟經營管理那現在大家比較重要的是在國土規劃因為現在還有8個縣市沒有所以有可能有可能會討論是不是要延後的狀況但還未知數那如果是這樣子的話他會影響到這個部分嗎"},{"start":9904.163,"end":9928.655,"text":"目前是不會因為我們這個部分主要是在業務費用像地方創生、我們省和公共建設等等這些的計畫對那我們的地方創生我們會配合到這個國土計畫上路因為畢竟不一樣嘛地方創生對就是說因為你的標你的這個標寫的這麼大健全國土規劃及經營管理"},{"start":9932.443,"end":9957.08,"text":"所以如果說你今天你是完全就是不管他這個因為我們是從區域計畫變成國土國土計畫那這個部分會不會有什麼樣的牽扯性我們跟委員報告我們現在其實我們有做這個規劃我們現在規劃了六大區域像桃竹苗是其中一區那包括我們現在在大南方在"},{"start":9957.68,"end":9980.101,"text":"中部還有在像北北基、北北宜、花東、離島我們現在其實有一個規劃我們會在所以這個不會受這所謂的如果明年我們的國土規劃是不是有有不一樣的時間點或是有調整不會受到影響這是屬於我們自己本身我們國發會自己所做的六大區塊"},{"start":9981.602,"end":9988.027,"text":"六大區塊的國土規劃所以這是無涉於在我們法令當中的一個問題"},{"start":10011.263,"end":10021.858,"text":"建議是不是按照陳昌明的提案我現在可以處理啦我先講再表示意見我是不是按照陳昌明委員動500萬動5百萬"},{"start":10027.694,"end":10028.335,"text":"主席動一千啦"},{"start":10051.92,"end":10065.747,"text":"齁 呃 欸 什麼動議政府啊我有 等一下等一下等一下 抱歉抱歉那個我看林黛華是要凍結百分之二十欸然後林蔡依 林蔡依都提了兩個凍十分 十分之一 我是三個凍十分之一啊"},{"start":10067.992,"end":10078.698,"text":"沒有出席委員就一千萬了就整幕了整幕第7幕我們就凍結一千萬沒有沒有沒有第一個我要求要凍結前面這個前面第7幕這邊凍結十分之一另外更重要的"},{"start":10093.393,"end":10119.077,"text":"我剛剛提那個永續發展那個非常重要那個1350萬那個要另外處理那個我要求要先凍結這個是以後是可以解凍的可是因為他兩個已經聯繫6項已經是4年沒有達標的他牽扯到人民的安全他是道路交通事故的死亡人數這個是很重要的那第二個人權歷史戒嚴時期他牽扯到的是"},{"start":10120.509,"end":10140.809,"text":"介沿時期那個多少人是家破人亡白色恐怖的結果現在南韓出現這個事情我們國內有人去贊同這變成國際醜聞了啊國際笑話了啊不是只有南韓媒體在笑我們日本跟美國都在所以我堅持這一筆齁在國發會提出具體的報告之前先凍結二分之一就是1350萬先凍結二分之一那前面前面這個"},{"start":10141.79,"end":10166.03,"text":"提了三個凍結十分之一看能不能維持至少凍結十分之一十分之一是三千多萬來休息一分半支持呂玉玲啦支持呂玉玲啦你看"},{"start":10324.751,"end":10332.836,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查"},{"start":10339.462,"end":10352.892,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10355.563,"end":10369.596,"text":"整個第7目我們凍結這個一千萬其中一千萬裡面的兩百萬是要凍在這個張祺凱提案的那個13502計畫裡面永續發展計畫協調推動這部分"},{"start":10378.721,"end":10405.156,"text":"對剛剛第一個期間那個135多就是動200一個月內然後請報告出來但是就是併在第7目裡面嗎沒有沒有沒有那第二個是其他的目動1000萬漁林委員的是這樣子好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦"},{"start":10406.597,"end":10431.838,"text":"這個凍結一千萬提出書面報告使得動之另外啊零二項下永續發展計畫推動協調凍結糧保案提出書面報告使得動之沒有鼓掌沒有鼓掌一下來接下來處理第8目第8目績效管理的部分從72項到78項"},{"start":10435.539,"end":10440.422,"text":"72到78本席的78案改提主決議本席發言我提的是76案76案裡頭主要是施政計畫、績效管理跟機制的規劃協調"},{"start":10460.105,"end":10477.687,"text":"本來本席是要簡略10%我現在說明我願意改為主決議但是我還是要跟主委分享就是說從頭到尾我一個觀念你既然是政府的頭腦跟心臟你要以你為主"},{"start":10478.683,"end":10503.856,"text":"您要以你為主就像剛剛我們有協調的我們組決議大家都簽的你們很客氣的說能源局有做什麼誰有做什麼所以我就拿那個給你們不是這樣子的是你本來就是你你是統合的底下各單位他們各自都有做因為預算都編在他們那裡他們做的成效"},{"start":10504.696,"end":10533.508,"text":"或者是他們的制度你認為哪裡需要修改他的成效哪裡有歪柔的你們要把它整合起來督導所以你才是整體的leader這樣才有用要不然你說能源局要來跟經濟部他怎麼說啊不可能的事啊現在政府所做的就是各自為政各自都很辛苦在做但是整個答案沒答案"},{"start":10534.718,"end":10557.415,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10558.001,"end":10559.202,"text":"公司、公司、公司、公司、公司、公司"},{"start":10570.086,"end":10594.851,"text":"我既然國發會是最重要的國家重大政策決策跟工程都在我這裡但是你你就沒錢啦我講這最坦白的啦對不對你像這個也一樣啊你一千多萬你要做什麼只做你開會當時要開會你只有這個實際上的預算我在第三案的時候我在講實際上的預算是編列在各部會裡頭啊"},{"start":10596.328,"end":10597.129,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":10615.763,"end":10639.685,"text":"我真的語重心長的說啦所以我願意改為主決議但是我也希望啦國發會不是只有一個政府機關的服務生啦絕對不可以這樣子啊這樣子下去國家沒有戰鬥力啦我語重心長的說我希望你去思考怎麼樣去調整好 交給賴栩榮賴栩榮之後請這個主委做答案"},{"start":10641.806,"end":10660.375,"text":"好這個績效管理很重要的特別他是在追蹤院的一些重大列管事項但是我覺得其實很多績效是不髒的像比如說舉個例子大臨埔遷村從這個9年前林全院長去為了過去政府的作為鞠躬道歉之後啟動遷村的程序5年前蘇院長合併了經費之後"},{"start":10662.276,"end":10682.017,"text":"現在過了5年了遲遲進展相當的緩慢這件事情我看不到國發會在管考上面扮演到了很好、積極上的一個角色包括跨部會間的一些協調包括像這個國道7號從10幾年前就規劃跟七櫃要來進行就第7個中心今年都已經啟用了就國道7號"},{"start":10682.978,"end":10683.158,"text":"第1項第2項第3項第4項第5項"},{"start":10706.002,"end":10718.548,"text":"重大的建設、院長、院級的這個建設然後不斷的拖延、不斷的延宕我認為這個是很不恰當的齁所以我要求凍結100萬提書面包號再行解凍好 請右主委中央答覆"},{"start":10720.08,"end":10747.057,"text":"好的謝謝楊委員的厚愛我們會來檢討一下我們怎麼樣能夠讓整個執行力變得更好我們在115年的預算上面我們這邊也會特別的來思考這個希望能夠努力達到這個委員的要求那還是謝謝那再來是賴委員提到的幾個案子都包括大林埔、千春的事情、國道7號這些"},{"start":10749.859,"end":10749.879,"text":"李維園議員"},{"start":10774.509,"end":10802.971,"text":"這個是這個項目我們要講的就是要推動我們跨部會的這些修法尤其對外國回來投資的很多的障礙必須要靠我們國發會來跟跨部會各部會來做一個這個協商跟讓我們的法規更加的明確還有很多國內的限制也可以一一的來排除這才能夠讓我們投資台灣的一些外資能夠在這個整個環境更加的了解他們的法治跟規範"},{"start":10803.852,"end":10818.736,"text":"所以我們請國發會在這方面針對跨部會的協商的部分給我們一個精進的書面報告所以凍結100萬凍結100萬對那個李委員是不是因為他總預算只有320萬改組決議給我書面報告好改組決議提出書面報告來我們繼續處理第11目82案到82案"},{"start":10840.805,"end":10862.45,"text":"這個部分其實我們每年幾乎都在談這個問題那但是他實質從之前我們一直希望中興新村他是可以活化的那每一年其實我也都有編相關的預算那一路走到現在說真的我們的執行數一直沒有辦法達到我們的預期"},{"start":10863.63,"end":10863.99,"text":"公園優化等我們"},{"start":10892.813,"end":10919.968,"text":"有看到你們想做的可是實質並沒有做的很到位齁所以在我們的預算當中的執行數是有差的所以我認為說是應該要檢列啦不要說每次預算都這樣子可是阿你死債就沒錢那債所以我才會檢列五百萬我認為要檢列五百萬謝謝好我去查了一下齁到今年的七月底阿中興新村"},{"start":10922.003,"end":10934.675,"text":"空置的這個宿舍現在還有690間還有690間它是處於在閒置或者低度的利用的情形總閒置這個面積有14036坪帳面上這個價值有14813000元這個比較離譜的是什麼它比112年底的時候那個空間"},{"start":10945.956,"end":10967.627,"text":"那時候才643不沒有減還反增都增加了47間那閒置面積也增加了939坪所以本席明確的要求現在國發會對於中興新村的定位、環境價值要加速它的整個檢討跟規劃之外更重要的要提出一個活化的一個計畫出來好不好我們倒退路啦"},{"start":10968.564,"end":10997.382,"text":"沒有倒退入啦沒有倒退入然後在這個提計畫提計畫之前我先凍結這個十分之一的預算等這個計畫提出來的時候我們再解凍好,下一位楊雪芸楊雪芸之後我們請這個主委做答覆楊雪芸發言其實看到這個第11目的部分心很痛苦因為現在在立法院裡頭沈議員就我尊敬的陳超明"},{"start":10998.459,"end":11002.321,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政委員會及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":11022.426,"end":11027.467,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、離島建設基金、花東地區中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":11053.656,"end":11068.954,"text":"目前為止你們去看中興新村那個大樓現在剝落的剝落你維護什麼剝落的剝落有時候我回到南投中興新村去鑽一下也曬了"},{"start":11071.573,"end":11088.613,"text":"前面的那個大榮樹啊一個地方連榮樹都維護不了以前我們欣欣向榮漂亮的不得了在前面的草坪那個廣場有多少的孩子六日是最佳的場地那一個交通系統非常好 乖高流道乖不高啊"},{"start":11091.909,"end":11098.351,"text":"關於行政院主管、離島建設基金、花東地區關於行政院主管、離島建設基金、花東地區關於行政院主管、離島建設基金、花東地區關於行政院主管、離島建設基金、花東地區關於行政院主管、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":11121.601,"end":11122.743,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":11130.046,"end":11136.169,"text":"關於行政院主管：行政院主管：行政院主管：行政院主管：行政院主管：行政院主管："},{"start":11160.851,"end":11186.01,"text":"你一個地方都沒有生氣了你怎麼去維護你怎麼讓它活化啦你要鎖定目標剛剛有人說啊越來前置越多我們的省級我們的那個光屋新村前面又比較前面那個本來很有但是現在也普普通通啦後面的包括衛生處還有後面的民主廣場"},{"start":11188.648,"end":11199.424,"text":"在中心醫院前面那一那一省政資料館那一些我們一鋪一鋪一鋪一鋪把它鋪建完成到現在都沒生氣"},{"start":11201.038,"end":11222.416,"text":"我們的那個省政資料館那個多寶貴那個多寶貴在中心醫院旁邊那個多寶貴以前觀光公車啦車水馬龍大家來懲警因為有一個草坪大家來懲警就是這樣去溝通去做可是我真的要問主委"},{"start":11223.197,"end":11225.679,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、花東地區"},{"start":11245.252,"end":11254.919,"text":"前面的草坪要怎麼做一步一步做,把歷史脈動弄出來但是我們的中心新村是所有比行政院還要重要的點"},{"start":11257.028,"end":11270.475,"text":"你第一有公共的基金、歷史文化古蹟的基金第二個現在全國都缺土地你的土地這麼多你應該要去思考我到底我這堆土地這麼多我是要做什麼還有我們的宿舍群宿舍群坦白講喔那些都是寶貝那個鴻門以前所有的廳主首長"},{"start":11281.3,"end":11282.201,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":11303.188,"end":11320.887,"text":"有因為那些芒果樹大家你來大家來分享但是現在呢誰維護我們的芒果樹樹幹還都是蘭花呢瀑布蘭花現在呢誰維護你連最基本的原始的都沒有維護了你怎麼去創新"},{"start":11322.409,"end":11323.21,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":11337.432,"end":11361.032,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11361.482,"end":11362.785,"text":"暨國家發展委員會及所屬單位預算第1項第2項"},{"start":11368.069,"end":11386.577,"text":"有一個感覺嘛,到那裡好像匯成一樣對不起我們這些審議員,我告訴你一個地方沒有生氣,一個地方沒有生氣真的會讓人家生氣那個立法院碩果僅存的兩位審議員都在經濟委員會我們請陳昌明委員來發表一下演說"},{"start":11394.434,"end":11409.717,"text":"那個中心新稱以前是一個政治中心憑良心講當時那年來當立法委員是不習慣所以當時的情勢很大還好我們兩個能存在現在也跟我們鼓掌一下"},{"start":11410.765,"end":11424.823,"text":"但是我聽到我們兩委員、兩成員講的感受很深政治很現實人走茶樑所以我們要體會到所以我今天這邊拜託我們所有經濟委員會的委員"},{"start":11427.066,"end":11455,"text":"剛好兩個收穫僅存的省議院在我們經濟委員會所以這邊就照案通過不要刪減好不好給我們兩個面子也對省議會一種回報跟感情好不好拜託一下可以嗎好支持那個請主委是要喉話還是請主委綜合答覆主委你還沒去過嘛有去過嘛主委綜合答覆一下"},{"start":11456.175,"end":11459.096,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":11478.804,"end":11505.99,"text":"但是因為我的標準比較高其實我都退回去了那我這個其實是我的一個錯但是另外一個原因我也說明一下我們現在在整修因為它是歷史建物不能亂整所以它必須完全要經過文資審議然後來改那我們現在可能張委員有一點誤會就是說我們的面積越來越多是因為我們收回來的那個房舍越來越多"},{"start":11506.79,"end":11525.204,"text":"那他會越收越多因為有些被佔用宿舍我們再收回來第二個要整修速度一定慢的原因是他每一個都要經過文資委員會的審議要用一樣的建材等等因為他是歷史監務那那個大樓的部分我也報告一下我們今年有編列預算針對那個省政資料館因為他已經60幾年了那目前有漏水那這個剝落的很嚴重"},{"start":11532.029,"end":11560.565,"text":"所以我們今年也編列預算要去把它進行整修那我們整修的方式呢也是走的第一個遵守文資的規定要原貌那第二個呢我們省政資料館的展覽不停所以我們是一邊展覽還是保留它的展覽然後一邊再整修我們其實有逐步正在做了那有些房間我們現在是被我刻意留下來的原因是這樣因為它原來的做法是一直一直變成宿舍又變宿舍出去只是這個宿舍"},{"start":11561.205,"end":11578.648,"text":"的離離開就要交還可是他一直是一個宿舍那比較會難整體的規劃出我們想要的樣子所以我們想說把它整體規劃之後呢再把一些宿舍整理出去喔那所以我們現在目前我還會再整修300間的先知宿舍把它整理起來"},{"start":11579.008,"end":11597.279,"text":"那這個整理起來就是會恢復原貌就包括油漆、汙瓦、漏水都會把它再整理所以我們是希望盡量把它回到一個原來的樣子第二個我們希望讓中興新村再重新聚回人潮否則的話這個房屋一間一間空、人一間一間凋零"},{"start":11598.46,"end":11614.216,"text":"他其實很快就是一個很老化的現象了所以我們是很積極的有在做這件事也跟各位委員做一個報告也謝謝兩位這個委員跟這個我們了不起的這個前審議員這個對我們中央行政的支持"},{"start":11616.63,"end":11629.273,"text":"以前的美化跟綠化以前那個地方真的很漂亮非常好真的遊客非常多那陳主席繼續我們尊重兩位國寶級的審議員的建議我們這個11目我們預算照列我們給兩位國寶鼓掌一下"},{"start":11647.637,"end":11650.39,"text":"好,現在處理主決的部分,來,第83案,國安會意見"},{"start":11655.206,"end":11681.588,"text":"我們是建議在倒數第三行國發會應認真研究日本這個地方改成國發會應協調內政部衛福部等機構然後那個研究日本這個經驗然後這個地方就繼續改這個地方因為這個還牽扯到其他部會的意見修正文字要送上來按照修正文字通過巴斯案"},{"start":11683.391,"end":11703.073,"text":"八十四案我們建議在倒數第二行因為這個是國科會已經就有這個做法了所以我們是應於一個月內建制淨零技術運用平臺改成會同國科會三個月內延提淨零技術運用書面報告按照修正委員會的意見通過八十五案"},{"start":11705.338,"end":11731.276,"text":"85案我們是建議從倒數第4行應將行政院國家發展基金收支管理辦法運用辦法提升至法律未接並增訂退場機制這個地方我們是建議改成應加強退場機制那也因為這樣的關係我們建議倒數第二行最後面要求掛回於一個內提草案送立法院審議"},{"start":11732.958,"end":11734.541,"text":"好 按照修正文字意見通過86案"},{"start":11737.435,"end":11759.409,"text":"86案我們是建議在第4行形同國家發展優先無視島上民生發展狀態我們是建議刪除這句話那另外是在倒數第4行原要求國安會檢討離島我們這裡加上要求國安會會同交通部經濟部等相關部會檢討離島這個相關補助"},{"start":11763.912,"end":11787.086,"text":"那也因為這樣將第3行的第一句話邀集相關部會研商這句話刪掉,讓他文字改這樣的文字賴榮來,同意齁,來按照文字修正的意見通過報告七案報告七案,我們建議最後一行專案報告改成書面報告"},{"start":11794.875,"end":11796.398,"text":"委員會及其他委員會及其他委員會"},{"start":11806.588,"end":11831.341,"text":"專案報告就是主委專案報告跟書面報告不一樣書面報告有下下的說啊專案報告就是要召委排定他召委不排沒你的事你準備資料就好了對不對這我覺得對於委員的提案不要這樣隨便改大家都重視嘛對不對你一樣去報告啊你們有沒有跟之前委員溝通過對啊這個給人家改這個幹嘛就不要改的啦問一下啦好不好問一下你有沒有"},{"start":11836.508,"end":11847.076,"text":"這個你就遵照政委員的反正不影響到你們的啦不影響到你們啦好 這個是好 遵照辦理不然你好了好 那就專通過88遵照辦理"},{"start":11849.172,"end":11878.319,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11881.059,"end":11899.453,"text":"我們都依主決議。好,照案通過。9、10、6、12。遵照辦理。好,照案通過。好,我們繼續處理國家檔案管理局。檔案管理很快。檔案管理局只有幾個提案。來,我們先處理第2目的部分。來。"},{"start":11909.775,"end":11932.406,"text":"那個要不要綜合說明一下我綜合說明一下這個是委員提案就是民眾進來申請國家檔案處理時間拉長那主要的原因是這個政治檔案修正條文於今年2月28日公佈增加了高度隱私的檢視"},{"start":11934.028,"end":11949.425,"text":"因為這個隱私檢視沒辦法用AI處理,必須要人工處理,因為都是草寫文字很多所以處理的時間就因為這樣的關係會比較長,因為有些甚至要去遮掩但是仍符合法定在15年內應該要回復的一個準薄的期限"},{"start":11954.791,"end":11971.525,"text":"那民眾的滿意度目前還有95%那表示民眾還是可以接受這樣的結果我們建議予以免凍結就按照本席的提案凍結100萬凍結100萬提出說明報告之後使得凍結好謝謝稍微那102到108第4目的部分"},{"start":11983.1,"end":11985.243,"text":"委員提案我們有幾個點我們進行回應第一個就是國家檔案館的進度我們現在事實上是因為按這個"},{"start":11998.682,"end":12007.35,"text":"案進度明年會完故宮,截至本年11月22日施工進度已到98.64%預計年底執行率可達100%,實現率90%"},{"start":12018.859,"end":12047.063,"text":"應該目前進度還不錯那在省政資料館為南投縣公告的歷史建物那我們在機電設備就是我剛才報告的聽設也老舊了所以我們現在也編列了預算那希望去去修繕這個省政資料館就是楊委員特別提到的這個地方那我們也會去努力改改這個地方所以我們也是建請這個免於檢列與凍結我想主委說明我了解"},{"start":12047.583,"end":12053.272,"text":"那是不是按照本席的這個提案凍結100萬﹖我就﹖來李永明"},{"start":12057.091,"end":12081.665,"text":"我的提案是108案這針對我們整個空間的優化工程跟管設的有效運用那最主要是因為省政資料館的那個績效指標沒有感受到讓民眾去感受到他那個參觀之後的一些想法那我們希望說除了你工程改善應該還有讓民眾參觀後的那個改善能夠有具體的成效的報告好不好"},{"start":12082.861,"end":12107.71,"text":"好的,我們會強化,然後向委員報告是,因為這個經費我一億五千萬嘛,我凍結兩千萬你要凍兩千來,那個張憲海就請主委來答覆,我們就處理了我本來提了一個凍結五分之一跟那個減內一億多的"},{"start":12109.499,"end":12134.907,"text":"那現在玉嶺提了這個好不好那我就附和剛剛玉嶺的提案好不好那我們就綜合我是提100啦我是提1000啦那是不是 呃 李委員跟張委員我們是不是折衷一下我們動1000就好了好不好好 第4幕我們凍結1000萬提出書面報告使得凍資"},{"start":12136.78,"end":12165.061,"text":"好,我們這個國家會跟所屬預算的提案大概已經處理完畢那基金你要現在先處理這個先讀那個結論之後我們下午再處理基金這個我們繼續宣讀協商結論針對國家會的部分那基金基金我們這個下午我想一下"},{"start":12167.037,"end":12172.817,"text":"下午1點半1點半我們繼續審查我們先唸行政決論"},{"start":12174.827,"end":12194.812,"text":"第1案預算照列第2案檢列300萬元第3、4案凍結100萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第4案改組決議第5案到14案第2目凍結50萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第13案改組決議第15案到25案第3目凍結100萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第22、25案改為組決議"},{"start":12204.915,"end":12217.701,"text":"第26、27案第4目凍結60萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第28至35案第5目凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第30案、33案、34案改為主決議第36至49案第6目凍結500萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第48案改為主決議"},{"start":12231.448,"end":12240.351,"text":"第50案至71案第7目凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資令向下02分支參酌63案凍結200萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第58案、61案、65案、70案改為主決議"},{"start":12250.794,"end":12276.496,"text":"第72至78案第8目凍結100萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第76案、78案改為主決議第79案第10目預算照列第80至82案第11目預算照列主決議部分83至86案修正通過87案至96案照案通過96案之一第三行重複關鍵兩次刪除"},{"start":12278.718,"end":12303.88,"text":"修正通過96之二案照案通過第97至101案第2目凍結100萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第102至108案第4目凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資宣讀完畢好謝謝請問各位同仁有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列請問有一"},{"start":12305.973,"end":12314.882,"text":"好,沒有議員通過好,我們現在休息一下午一點半繼續審查基金好,謝謝昭偉,謝謝各位委員,謝謝"},{"start":18473.771,"end":18475.932,"text":"議案到第17案"},{"start":18504.049,"end":18509.333,"text":"提案委員﹑本席﹑亭飛﹑天才"},{"start":18525.499,"end":18541.048,"text":"主委好謝謝昭偉各位委員午安我們針對這個1至17各項投資有3點針對委員的這個要求我們有3點說明就是第一個我們在投資部分113年10月底執行數為86.2億執行率是69%那預計到年底我們會認列文創方案投資11億"},{"start":18550.333,"end":18554.737,"text":"也會任列服務業及製造業方案投資3.8億那也會撥付創投事業投資款4億總執行數預估為105.49億執行率會達到84%"},{"start":18565.828,"end":18583.634,"text":"那這個114年將會配合國家產業發展持續辦理投資業務那主要是在我們希望能夠把這個信賴無產業把AI這些各種產業無人機等等去進行推動之外我們也會強化創業投資跟創業團隊的培養那包括創業天使"},{"start":18587.575,"end":18608.604,"text":"的投資跟專案我們也會強化那另外在校園基金部分我們也會強化我們現在除了台大成立之外我們也交大等等我們都在洽談中那另外產業再造基金去協助產業翻轉的基金我們也已經送件了現在正在審核中"},{"start":18609.404,"end":18616.007,"text":"另外我們也會提供醫療智慧醫療創新創業的計劃資金以及加強AI投資新創、綠色成長之外我們針對機器人這些我們稍微比較落後的產業我們也會請國會協助來帶動另外一個基金"},{"start":18630.294,"end":18634.537,"text":"然後給予比較大的投資我們希望透過這些的投資能夠讓臺灣未來的產業能夠轉型的比較快、比較成功那這也懇請各位委員支持那再來委員們關切我們內經內控治理的問題其實國發基金他原來在"},{"start":18646.125,"end":18663.793,"text":"三階段的審核裡面因為都是由外部的評審我們國家基金並沒有參與所以在內清內控在管理上面基本上獨立性是很清楚的但是問題是在於我們被投資的公司會出現一些有些董事運作跟監督管理營運的一些狀況"},{"start":18664.833,"end":18666.375,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、花東地區"},{"start":18684.213,"end":18704.98,"text":"也懇請各位給我們一些預算因為我們現在包括有些案子我們現在甚至都都會直接找律師來討論看看有沒有辦法有沒有需要可以採取合法的法律行動因為在這個這個公司法跟這個公司治理裡面他還是以董事跟這個總經理為主要負責人那股東乾政呢"},{"start":18705.62,"end":18734.312,"text":"是一個不被接受的那我們如何又能夠去管理又能夠達到我們的管理目的所以我們很需要一些律師的支持所以我們大概從這幾個地方會去做強化那以上報告主委是這樣我有提案我提兩案那個你128億分4個投資項目職業投資、創業投資跟加強中小企業另外是創業天使創業天使我一直覺得你們這個規模實在太少"},{"start":18735.693,"end":18756.031,"text":"中小企業集中在中南部中小企業怎麼去加強投資才邊有益明顯不足我想要求拜託國安會未來針對中小企業投資的實施方案還有創業天使都要加倍"},{"start":18759.025,"end":18783.759,"text":"我是希望這個部分整體的餅要把它做大否則你要怎麼去照顧廣大的中小企業另外創業天使很多時候是年輕的創業家一個8億一個才6億所以我作為提案委員我跟鄭天才都是希望說能夠凍結政委員有兩個提案我們是凍結3千萬好不好"},{"start":18788.609,"end":18810.196,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":18810.536,"end":18830.855,"text":"一併這樣處理,那因為其實我雖然是簡略其實我覺得我們是有一點這個恨也不成綱的感覺因為說真的在國發基金其實我們一直在講說跟邱昭偉一樣對於中小企業跟南部"},{"start":18831.696,"end":18834.239,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分"},{"start":18851.977,"end":18858.541,"text":"中央政府總預算案中央政府總預算案中央政府總預算案中央政府總預算案中央政府總預算案中央政府總預算案中央政府總預算案中央政府總預算案"},{"start":18881.736,"end":18900.971,"text":"我們希望在國發基金這當中一個主決議就是希望他是能夠有一個單一資訊在明年我只要再利用這個機會再提醒一下我們的主委不要忘了因為我主決議我們也會再一次提案就是說希望一月份這個窗口一定要出來"},{"start":18901.92,"end":18931.92,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18932.06,"end":18951.98,"text":"竟然是高雄、台南沒有一家所以這個我屢試要求你們一定要檢討所以這部分你們設了辦公室但要辦更多的活動讓更多的這些創業貼士能夠了解我們國家基金有這個協助能夠協助他們取得這個第一桶金所以這個部分我具體要求我們跟這個"},{"start":18952.841,"end":18954.542,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":18972.069,"end":18973.911,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、花東地區"},{"start":18995.552,"end":19022.672,"text":"您的建議非常好要增加但是問題是我們希望我們要先把SOP訂出來就是比例原則要不然我們增加了結果還是都集在集在中北部那我們南部還是一樣沒有我們希望說我們訂了這樣的SOP然後再訂了這個所謂的窗口南部的窗口可以去協助他們怎麼去寫這樣的一個相關計劃因為這件事很奇怪"},{"start":19024.753,"end":19048.833,"text":"不是憑空掉下來的所以去協助他們寫計劃然後進入到你們這個載門載門之後你才能一步一步扶植從最基層扶植到二階扶植到三階我覺得你要把這樣的定出來不是你一睡覺讓他讓他很多錢未必他能夠去負擔或承受你可以把他的樣態變成好多集"},{"start":19049.613,"end":19075.922,"text":"扶植最低級的進到這個門檻然後第二級、第三級這樣子一個企業產業他才有一個很好發揮的空間他也知道他未來的目標值在哪裡這也是我們國發基金我們扶植的重點這個要拜託我們的主委謝謝現在是零,比方說這個南部、中南部是零所以希望說最起碼你明年度要到10%10%啦"},{"start":19079.597,"end":19096.515,"text":"10%這個主委應該可以吧?10%是一定有啦那現在是零欸現在不是零啊那我們是辦公室現在是零但是我們已經在籌設了就是我在這邊承諾我一定會把它設定出來"},{"start":19097.436,"end":19099.118,"text":"國發基金有別於外面基金,外面基金是以賺錢為目的"},{"start":19116.793,"end":19142.943,"text":"那會讓很多年輕人在創業的時候他會很無奈不容易拿到錢所以國家基金是以創新跟轉型為主我們是希望幫助這些年輕人有一個創業的機會但是如果今天我們是用獲利的結果來判斷我們對年輕人的福祉其實對年輕人是不公平的我也希望這個大院在某些地方不要用"},{"start":19143.763,"end":19143.863,"text":"第1項第2項第3項"},{"start":19163.985,"end":19190.604,"text":"但是現在變成是說我們任何一個投資單只要一失利我們就認為被認定是一個有罪的單位那也會讓我們同仁會不太有把不太敢去放一些協助紓困的事情尤其中小企業很需要幫忙的時候所以我們也希望各位委員能夠有機會幫我們多發聲我們一起來幫助有困難的就是當我們的臺灣可以有機會更好來陳立法院議員"},{"start":19195.885,"end":19223.371,"text":"那個主委其實我們要講我剛剛在講就是說你像那個創業天使投資方案你們就要把設定說我今天就是要扶持創新產業所以我才會講你要分好幾階就是說他第一個入門款他進到這個入門款我們要希望達到什麼樣的扶植標準不一定是獲利是他要做出一些成績而不是今天那個"},{"start":19224.464,"end":19226.766,"text":"全體委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":19250.384,"end":19250.804,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":19274.239,"end":19288.85,"text":"這就不是獲利所以你其實我覺得你把它分清楚這樣就會排除外界的疑慮不會說國發基金我就是一定要獲利不是而是我們有很多不一樣的投資方案協助方案"},{"start":19290.161,"end":19315.216,"text":"我覺得你們把它分門別類出來,就可以適宜。我提醒你們,我們質疑的是你的直接投資跟創業投資,那竟然大。所以當然會某種程度你針對直接投資或創業投資會要求你一定的績效。但是很多是政策扶植目的,包括中東基金、中東投資、包括中小企業、包括創業天使。"},{"start":19316.675,"end":19327.944,"text":"政策目的,不是以獲利或營業為主要目的,但我覺得像創業天使,你們最高額都是兩千萬,你們還要有天使投資人一起參與,門檻相對高"},{"start":19337.27,"end":19360.121,"text":"在這個設定門檻的時候同時也要求他未來獲利的可行性的評估所以你們還是用獲利去看所以我覺得像陳廷薇我們講的你們區域直接投資跟創業投資部分你們要抓緊一點好的績效部分但是對於中小企業跟創業天使需要政府資金協助的部分你們這個門檻"},{"start":19362.162,"end":19386.22,"text":"不一定的太高太高的話很多需要幫助的這些創業天使或者是這個中小型企業就沒有辦法獲得國發基金的資金的挹注跟攜注所以這部分我希望說這個國會能夠還有這個職民也在這個一定要確實檢討我已經講了好多次但是卻沒有具體的方案所以我們支持所以是不是就"},{"start":19388.59,"end":19407.166,"text":"綜合大家的意見就是凍結3000萬提出書面報告之後指責凍資來 妍妍我要請教一下那個中小企業的部分要我們預估 主委我們現在幾屆那中小企業很辛苦你去看晚上時間連那個越南店、印尼店"},{"start":19414.428,"end":19416.929,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算"},{"start":19430.919,"end":19433.22,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":19450.401,"end":19451.822,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":19472.13,"end":19496.12,"text":"因為他搶不單單他沒辦法啊他沒辦法顧老公啊所以我們看看日、國、日明年1月份川普上任之後那這些關稅因為他又衍生他上面這個貿易公司沒有拿到單他也沒辦法他也沒辦法顧老公啊那我們已經看到中小企業尤其在產業界"},{"start":19497.613,"end":19524.846,"text":"歐洲外訂最基層的這些還刷好緊張你應該了解吧我們的駐造業還刷它是工業之母但是還刷到今年度來說最少都減過60%還刷沒生意委員會就沒生意了因為它必須要它它沒有底下就沒有了所以連接上衍生經紀店連接上的小吃店"},{"start":19526.266,"end":19529.43,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管"},{"start":19545.248,"end":19568.678,"text":"委員我們現在這個部分我們是有編列的這個6億在做這樣的一個投資那剛才其實陳委員跟邱委員都有希望我們把它double就是把這個6億能夠移到12億那我只是趁勢想要表態就是說基金去支持這樣的企業的時候是很高風險的"},{"start":19569.938,"end":19598.608,"text":"但是如果我們現在只要有虧損的案子就會被立法院來查的時候對同仁來講他會很有壓力去資助這些該被資助的人我也是懇請委員將來有機會幫我們多溝通我們願意來增加這個金額大家一起來努力幫助這個產業那很好啊但是你有一部分我不認同啊只要你的說明你的方向是正確的"},{"start":19600.625,"end":19603.616,"text":"有很多像李天使的計畫他懂得獲利"},{"start":19605.587,"end":19607.328,"text":"規定行政院總預算案的成效。"},{"start":19630.439,"end":19657.158,"text":"他就不是只有那一些那一家廠商沒生意阿他連連印尼店就沒生意阿他會阿印尼店沒生意阿你的菜市場也會沒有生意阿你整個消費會萎縮阿阿你消費萎縮你顧家問事欸你消費增加你還可以收稅金阿所以我我我相信你有這個願力希望去做但是我也希望你去盤點哪一些是值得"},{"start":19658.459,"end":19672.45,"text":"需要去協助他的你要大膽闊虎的去做對不對阿不然你說這個我連提案也沒提案啦我怎麼提案我們提案說要給你增加沒有就給你增加我提案給你刪除我不敢"},{"start":19673.553,"end":19692.737,"text":"中小企業只有6億,你是要做什麼?我還是從早上的論點一樣,國發會這麼重要,預算是這樣子,這邊怎麼有競爭力?所以你基金可以去調,我希望可以看到你去調之後的內容"},{"start":19693.24,"end":19710.543,"text":"好啊,我會調整,我也跟你報告這個楊全英委員跟我完全一致啦我希望說明天審的時候那個中小企業能夠6億變12億希望齁,然後創業天使部分我希望你8億也到12億啦齁這你們可以去調整好,那個陳先生、萬用忠我們要處理啦"},{"start":19714.072,"end":19734.242,"text":"主席,主委,我覺得你一直很擔心,其實或許因為每個委員所要求的或是說從媒體當中然後對於同仁的一些質疑,讓很多的同仁不敢去這個非常直接的然後會有一些擔心"},{"start":19734.582,"end":19737.644,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、離島建設基金、花東地區"},{"start":19760.714,"end":19765.126,"text":"你們把KPI定出來其他的部分另外的KPI又是什麼?"},{"start":19766.072,"end":19767.593,"text":"各項投資的標的跟標準"},{"start":19793.482,"end":19795.604,"text":"公司公司公司公司公司公司公司"},{"start":19808.57,"end":19825.533,"text":"最高只有兩千萬然後有些是只有五百、六百然後你說我一定要要求你要達到你要賺一千萬很好可能啊所以我覺得你要趁這個機會大家的共識另外訂出每一個向的投資的KPI好不好 謝謝"},{"start":19827.857,"end":19847.202,"text":"有各項投資,凍結3000萬提出署名報告,各委員提出的署名報告都要確實提供凍結3000萬提出署名報告適合使得凍資。業務支出部分服務費用,先處理18跟19兩案。提案委員不在,我們照列。20案是張委員"},{"start":19859.127,"end":19872.832,"text":"二十三是那個差禮費用那這個金額我是建議我不是反對出去可是我看這個項目裡面提到要去歐洲美國、亞洲等地進行這個"},{"start":19875.007,"end":19895.944,"text":"進行創投事業跟新興事業的考察那結果現在沒有看到他的計畫書跟目的所以我先建議說先凍結部分的預算等這個他的先提出一個說明然後在猜理之後一定要具體不要讓人家覺得說連這個國防院這麼重要的單位出國都回來都沒有一個很具體的成效等說明以後再凍結這個預算我建議凍結100萬"},{"start":19907.818,"end":19922.866,"text":"國外旅費凍結50萬提出說明報告是二次的動之另外二十一項部分的印刷費用還好吧二十一項照列二十二、二十三"},{"start":19927.512,"end":19952.284,"text":"主要就是剛剛我們在談的創業天使這個計畫然後我這筆預算我也是贊成是要不禁的是要刪他的可是我發現他三個項目裡面一個創業天使計畫跟委請中國輸出入銀行執行國家融資保證機制方案還有辦理中東歐融資計畫方案這三個業務現在整個信息揭露非常有限"},{"start":19953.064,"end":19977.331,"text":"現在我的經濟不要說代表人民及監督就是查不到什麼資料所以我請把這三項他的這個投資的考量項目還有這個效益跟成果這個在最近請他請提出這三個計畫跟工作這個推動提出他最近這五年比較完整的報告給我好不好我先看完以後確認他是很OK的我們再解凍這個預算"},{"start":19979.136,"end":19979.256,"text":"提供資料"},{"start":19993.063,"end":19999.907,"text":"二十四到二十六也是一樣業務費用向下的專業服務費這都是張啟凱的提案二十四到二十六"},{"start":20020.623,"end":20026.925,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院主管第1項第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於行政院基金、花東地區"},{"start":20047.22,"end":20071.367,"text":"7000萬到了明年度要已經到了18億1660我這個三級跳跳的真的有點有點高了特別裡面包括那個像補助這個教育部辦理促進國際生來台來台跟留台這個計畫首席經費一下變那麼多可是那個怎麼去引進的條件啊來台以後怎麼樣讓他們留下來啊包括這個什麼教育專班成效怎麼樣這計畫看起來都"},{"start":20073.117,"end":20073.517,"text":"五千、五千"},{"start":20098.336,"end":20102.398,"text":"法定人數不足30案提案委員不在、遭列31、32提案委員不在、遭列33提案委員不在、遭列34我改主決議35"},{"start":20119.324,"end":20140.813,"text":"三十五,建議主決於文字可否在倒數第三行最後兩個字為免淪為執政者不當投資介於謀取自家政商利益之用我們是建議這一段是不是能夠刪除再來是"},{"start":20143.234,"end":20145.717,"text":"委員會及所屬單位預算部分關於行政院政府總預算部分"},{"start":20159.878,"end":20165.884,"text":"我們均照辦理。好。照樣通過37。照樣通過38。照樣通過39。照樣通過40。照樣通過41。照樣通過44。照樣通過45。照樣通過46。"},{"start":20185.186,"end":20213.214,"text":"遵照辦理照案通過繼續處理離島建設基金但是我要跟主委講一下就是說你那28案你的講補助比如說國際的學生來你們要補助他是教育部你補助機關嗎那這個預算會不會覺得很奇怪你這是教育部主辦"},{"start":20215.148,"end":20238.169,"text":"那為什麼要你們來補助為什麼錢就不編在教育部國發會有很多很奇怪的事情你不應當你今天是國際的學生來就應該是你教育部嘛不是你國發會主辦嘛那你國發會在這個角色扮演什麼角色聖誕老公公能夠督導嗎"},{"start":20240.194,"end":20258.999,"text":"給多少錢誰決定是教育部決定還是你決定還是行政院指定這個預算為什麼要這樣長呢很好啊讓國際的學生來交流非常好啊那為什麼是這個邏輯很奇怪為什麼是你國發會長期就讓國發會去補助機關那有什麼事"},{"start":20263.503,"end":20285.837,"text":"請主委說明一下這個是因為依據這個這個當時教育部報了一個專案到行政院行政院合下來之後我們遵照行政院的指示去辦就你當了主委阿你不覺得邏輯很奇怪嗎行政院你要叫誰當然你沒辦法你要跟著可是你有沒有說明過你這個本來就是你"},{"start":20286.878,"end":20312.41,"text":"教育部不管多少錢你幹嘛他比如說要10塊要你這邊分2塊那邊要分幾塊那邊分幾塊為什麼要這樣分開我也跟委員說明一下因為這個剛好跟我們在攬財也有一定的關係我舉個例子這個新型專班我們其實就會共同協議要挑選什麼樣的人來台灣舉個例子我們現在要求他的學校要在全球排名800以內"},{"start":20313.831,"end":20336.878,"text":"指定教育部可以做嗎本期在跟你討論的是說預算為什麼要這樣長你今天不是你主辦啊你是說我需要什麼樣的人才請你教育部去做嘛是不是你的角色有什麼你告訴我一下我跟委員報告因為這裡面牽扯的比較他的方案是比較複雜不是教育預算而已喔因為"},{"start":20338.658,"end":20365.793,"text":"教育部是只有教育預算那我們還會補助到那個他來的差旅費用因為這些小孩子是800名以內是很優秀的孩子那差旅費用那另外我們補助他生活費然後另外是業者也補助生活費了所以是有一點共同補助的概念我們現在在討論的也就是說在你出了這個錢你的權利是什麼你的責任是什麼你的義務是什麼"},{"start":20367.462,"end":20392.86,"text":"這個明明就是教育部他需要引進這些國際的學生也好這一些那你本來你給他的生活費你本來就可以編載教育部對不對然後教育部他們會去建教合作現在工廠搶工搶得很厲害幼稚園人才我們現在不只是給他生活費我們還給他獎金為的目的"},{"start":20393.601,"end":20413.307,"text":"都跟學校講我們還可以這個好的孩子我還可以再給他加碼目的要留住這個好的孩子是這樣那這個預算機制我覺得很奇怪你們去研討一下我覺得這個邏輯很奇怪我去跟你特別跟你報告這件事不是給我報告是你們要去討論我這個10塊的錢你這邊分2塊那邊分3塊你到底在逃避什麼"},{"start":20419.009,"end":20433.437,"text":"等到時候責任是誰的?要找誰算?不知道所以我就一直很希望說政府這些都人民的納稅錢你應該有權就有責,他才有效能你去討論啦,好不好?"},{"start":20442.41,"end":20442.43,"text":"1949國務委員"},{"start":20473.492,"end":20484.58,"text":"49我們是建議主決議在第一段的修正文字是一、離島建設條例第二條本條例所稱之離島系指臺灣與本島隔離屬我國管轄之島嶼該條例實施系則將離島定義為無陸路交通連結之島嶼"},{"start":20497.35,"end":20520.517,"text":"其經……那第二段我們建議在並於兩個月內修正為並於兩個月內會同交通部將辦理情形向立法院經濟委員會提出書面報告按照修正文件通過50案50案我們遵照辦理遵照辦理來花東花東50案停飛"},{"start":20528.393,"end":20529.634,"text":"免違件免違件免違件免違件免違件免違件"},{"start":20557.763,"end":20558.29,"text":"委員會及所屬單位"},{"start":20560.775,"end":20586.381,"text":"我要請教主委這個轉型正義基金這個在各個部會都有我不知道你們佔的比例是多少但是你們發覺這個預算這個當然它是基金不是公共預算但是這個基金你們的執行率都是只有兩三成三成左右那到底是做不來還是根本不要這麼多錢"},{"start":20588.762,"end":20602.339,"text":"因為自己本身也覺得很奇怪為什麼它的執行率都那麼低所以唯一只有兩項第一個錢太多我花不了第二個我根本有錢我也做不了什麼原因呢"},{"start":20605.144,"end":20627.551,"text":"這個委員說的所言甚是那我大概做一個簡單的報告到8月的確那個數字是比較低那因為大部分的工作的驗收、核銷、付款都在年底我們有一個統計一個明細表我想我是不是送給委員那我們因為年底的執行率會到93%那我是不是把後面年底這一段"},{"start":20628.731,"end":20654.584,"text":"就是我們收款跟驗收的部分給您參考那的確我們也有考慮到它的執行效果所以我們在114年的預算我們減列了900萬那這個預算主要是要由各單位來提出申請那我們另外我們也修改了規則我們希望這筆基金是可以幫助到弱勢的團體所以我們也增列了弱勢團體也可以來申請這個基金"},{"start":20658.186,"end":20681.072,"text":"主席我再討論一下因為你自己也檢略你也看到執行力的狀況當然本席講的就是說是因為錢太多花不了還是根本做不了因為我覺得這個議題很敏感但是一個重點是在於本席不希望說去撕裂我們國家人民的一個情感"},{"start":20681.852,"end":20707.892,"text":"而是應當讓要給予就像您說的這些不管是弱勢也好還是我們要尊敬的這些人他能夠有榮耀因為這個錢的目的在執行的終止應該是如此這是我兩項的一個建議謝謝委員指導這個我們我們也會提出書面報告來做好謝謝楊委員請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":20713.22,"end":20724.943,"text":"第1至17案各項第1至17案各項投資凍結3000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第18、19案預算照列第20案凍結50萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第21案預算照列第22案、23案凍結500萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第24至26案預算照列第27至29案"},{"start":20741.446,"end":20756.894,"text":"動輒5000萬元提出書面報告後時的動織,第30案預算照列,第31案、32案預算照列,第33案預算照列,第34案預算照列本案改為主決議,主決議部分35案修正通過,36至1案均照案通過。"},{"start":20761.84,"end":20773.145,"text":"第47案48案預算照列主決議部分49案修正通過50案、51案照案通過第52案預算照列主決議部分53案照案通過第54案、55案預算照列均改為主決議主決議部分56案、57案均照案通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":20783.882,"end":20808.621,"text":"好,請問各位同仁有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的協商決定通過沒有提案的部分均照列請問有異議?無異議,我們通過本市...我突然眼前視線模糊本市通過的決議文資授權主席及議事人員整理114年度國安會預算含非營業基金"},{"start":20810.362,"end":20817.333,"text":"審查完略正式別隨同機關別審查結果調整所列議程處理完略現在三位"},{"start":20830.843,"end":20851.85,"text":"第2項第1項第2項第3項第4項第5項第6項第7項第8項第9項第10項第11項第11項第12項第12項第13項第14項第14項第15項第16項第17項第18項第19項第19項第20項第21項第22項第22項第23項第23項第24項第25項第26項第27項第28項第29項第30項第31項第32項第33項第34項第35項第36項第36項第37項第38項第39項第40項第41項第41項第42項第42項第43項第44項第44項第45項"},{"start":20859.874,"end":20874.384,"text":"第2項第1項第2項第3項第4項第5項第6項第7項第8項第9項第10項第11項第11項第12項第13項第14項第14項第15項第16項第17項第18項第19項第19項第20項第21項第22項第23項第23項第24項第26項第27項第28項第29項第30項第31項第32項第33項第34項第36項第36項第37項第38項第39項第40項第41項第42項第42項第43項第44項第44項第45項第46項第47項第47項第48項第49項"},{"start":20886.288,"end":20896.965,"text":"第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]}},{"id":"157897","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157897","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21a53b2470295aee89a99904554a4baaac871116ad264925f579b5a1982509e2505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"13:28:45 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tart":188.217,"end":209.549,"text":"如果我跟我的異性伴侶只有公正認定我們兩個叫做異性伴侶但是如果有一天我們兩個親密關係消滅的時候我們的親權要如何分配相關民法親屬還有繼承法規範的部分我們現在完全看不到你們任何說法所以我不知道你的專家學者會議裡面有沒有討論過這件事情或是法務部有沒有跟你們提醒過這件事情"},{"start":212.508,"end":233.88,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們在討論裡面其實都有討論到所以你們會如何確定我剛剛講的所以當你們真的要讓這個法就這樣通過快速炒出來通過的時候請問你有考慮到我想的這些問題嗎?它跟民法之間的關係呢?所以到底是要保障女子的生育權益還是要保障兒少最佳利益我看不出來"},{"start":235.693,"end":251.123,"text":"謝謝委員,那個當初預告版裡面的確有你寫的這些問題。這是你寫的,不是我寫的。的確有上面所寫的、顯示的這些問題。好,那我再告訴你還有另外一個問題,應該沒有什麼人發現喔。我非常謝謝我的辦公室同仁。下一個。"},{"start":251.863,"end":273.352,"text":"在民法裏面在這個投影片的右手邊是民法民法裏面有講到如果一旦先生可以證明他的同意是受到詐欺或脅迫可以發現被詐欺或脅迫終止後6個月提起否認之處受到詐欺者自子女出生之日滿3年不得為之可是回到你們的人工生殖法你們公布的人工生殖法裏面把民法92條這條拿掉了本條不適用哦所以按照你們衛福部現在的修法議職裏面如果這個修法通過了"},{"start":279.594,"end":284.075,"text":"即便當事人被騙或被迫呈示人工生殖都得履行到底嗎?你們直接把民法92條說不適用耶,你們跟法務部討論過了嗎?你們確定這樣不會有問題嗎?再往下。好,再往下喔。呃,這個胚胎這個部分我們來看一下右手邊。"},{"start":301.076,"end":328.894,"text":"受訴配偶A是綠色圈圈他們作為人工生殖後產生胚胎阿法受訴配偶B這是橘色的我問你有沒有植入錯誤的可能性?你們有沒有研究相關案例?如果有植入錯誤的胚胎被植入當事人體內這樣的親子關係又要如何處理?現行的法規可以處理嗎?衛福部預告草案的內容可以處理嗎?這種情況被植入胚胎的受孕婦女她跟這個受孕婦女完全沒有血緣關係而是別人的胚胎那這樣不就是另外一種待遇了嗎?"},{"start":329.835,"end":346.73,"text":"那這個部分你們衛福部有沒有解方?你們有沒有研究過國外的相關案例?署長我跟你說在美國就有相關案例發生2003年的時候一對白人夫妻跟黑人夫妻他們被措職了胚胎結果一對白人夫妻他們就生出雙胞胎一個是白人寶寶一個是黑人寶寶"},{"start":348.649,"end":358.875,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員黃捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員黃捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員黃捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員黃捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員黃捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由"},{"start":378.627,"end":381.748,"text":"還是你們已經都準備好配套了?我們不用擔心。有關剛剛提到的第一個問題的確在預告版裡面我剛剛提到有,但是我們最後經過討論那個條文我們後來是會刪掉的。為什麼要刪掉?剛剛提到的我們就發現如同這個委員所說的。那還有這個你們把民法92條也拔掉這個部分你們覺得都沒問題嗎?"},{"start":408.219,"end":427.509,"text":"我只是要提醒你喔這麼多這麼多的問題我只是要提醒你連我現在問的這些問題你都沒有辦法回答我那如果真的出事了怎麼辦當你們把子女最佳利益跟婦女生育自主的部分如果有發生衝突我認為其實有很多很多的事情都還需要細緻的討論所以"},{"start":429.15,"end":452.784,"text":"我自己才會堅決反對如果在現行的人工生殖法修法過程我們可以先把女同志還有單身女性的部分先放入是不是可以讓真的有需要的人趕快使用到相關法規範的福利跟照顧但是真的有那麼多爭議跟法規範都還沒有辦法解決的問題我們是不是應該後續再來處理目前已經決定透過了好 謝謝署長正面的回應 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝署長"}]}},{"id":"157893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21306d6ca0a27ed535a99904554a4baaac06b08ba57c1938fdefbef1088df2b8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"12:47:15 - 12:52:38","影片長度":"00:05:23","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T12:47:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T12:52:38+08:00","duration":323,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.232843750000001,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.312843750000001,"end":6.730343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.391593750000002,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.14221875,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.95034375,"end":84.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.70971875000001,"end":110.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.19096875000001,"end":119.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.52284375,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.39784375000002,"end":178.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.29409375,"end":182.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.73659375000003,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.74534375000002,"end":272.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.40596875,"end":308.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.78034375000004,"end":308.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.13034375,"end":317.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.17534375,"end":323.42346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.464,"end":6.646,"text":"謝主席 有請邱部長我想今天我們討論人工生殖法那我們期待真的能這個法能趕快通過那前提就是說我們為了單身女性跟女同志配偶的生育權那我想這個是相當重要那當然大家談到代理孕母"},{"start":31.345,"end":55.991,"text":"那因為代理育母是一項牽涉到生命安全跟醫療福利還有倫理問題的制度所以這個跟單身女性跟女同志配偶的生育權所考量的問題其實還有一段距離所以我覺得脫鉤真的對兩邊都是好事那我們當然修法的過程當然就是一步一步來嘛"},{"start":57.131,"end":82.28,"text":"在遇到這個代理孕母有爭議的部分當然就是要謹慎來思考看怎麼樣來尋求解方我覺得這才是我們負責任的做法所以也要全方面的考量那我們剛剛很多委員都提到代理孕母的制度我覺得最重要的癥結點就是說我們不能忽視那頭房間裡的大象怎麼說因為這個就是"},{"start":84.941,"end":88.485,"text":"擬具 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案 。"},{"start":67.839,"end":85.462,"text":"我們過去也感謝你過去到屏東來看我,選舉的時候你知道我們這區域的位啊,雖然是做立法委員,跟電影的問題差不多啊,齋氣喪出酸啦,暗時喪入洞房啦。我們常常會說一句話啦,就是說祝新郎新娘百年好合,早生貴子。你怎麼會聽人家這樣講?現在很多人這樣講,新郎新娘我們祝你早生貴子,我們都很尊重。"},{"start":94.434,"end":122.32,"text":"我們會問什麼?新郎說:「你有暗算要生幾個?替你老伯老婦、那個長男長女也跟你問一下。」新郎都會說:「這要看他的意思。」所以我們後來會問什麼?問新娘:「你有暗算要替你的家庭生幾個嗎?」這什麼意思?在生育這件事情上呢,女性才是主導者,你同意嗎?你老生幾個是你家庭還是你母家庭?當然是我母家庭。是嘛。"},{"start":123.826,"end":145.187,"text":"所以人工生殖可能遇到的問題男女性都有對不對但是代理孕母真的完完全全是以女性的權利為核心是不是這樣子那如果有人主張說我們要讓人工生殖來解決一些因為沒辦法自然受孕的一些需求那他需要用人工生殖你支持嘛對吧"},{"start":146.718,"end":153.007,"text":"但是說代理運母這個欸好像大家有不同意見喔我們暫時脫鉤你認為這是政治問題嗎?什麼叫政治問題?"},{"start":156.175,"end":158.996,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":182.677,"end":210.735,"text":"現在這些版本只要是民進黨的委員有沒有代孕通通沒有民進黨的委員的提案立場很一致從頭到尾從過去到現在都沒有支持代理孕母你覺得什麼原因你猜猜看為什麼民進黨都而且毫無疑問的我看提案委員好像沒有看到男性只有這個郭國文搞不清楚自己性別跑去連署黃秀芳的"},{"start":212.663,"end":230.233,"text":"為什麼?為什麼?我們兩個都是男性,我們來討論這個議題有點尷尬為什麼都反對?來啦,我再詢問一個問題啦生育是天賦人權,但是婚跟育有必然相關嗎?"},{"start":231.874,"end":248.657,"text":"但現在去解除,阿尊說新娘大肚,你會這樣講嗎?以前都不敢講啊,以前都是婚紗弄到蓬蓬啊,還有呢,有時候司儀還開玩笑,誒,走下去洗衣服的新郎,看他好嘞,有新啊,在這裡就轟轟大笑。"},{"start":249.264,"end":271.658,"text":"但現在不一樣啦!現在如果說是什麼?我們遇到這種主持喜宴的時候喔!相異臨盟喔!甚至有時候新郎新娘結婚啦!伴郎是自備阿!阿不是!花童是自備阿!你有對得很平衡嗎?有有有!現在現代社會,我們說多子多孫多夫妻都沉浮了過去了!我們現在婚姻跟生育有必然要在一起嗎?沒有結婚怎麼會有孩子啊?你會接受嗎?"},{"start":277.837,"end":279.767,"text":"三、委員黃捷等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":290.156,"end":306.848,"text":"你會接受嗎?如果你自己的家長你可以接受因為我沒有女兒啦我不知道你有沒有女兒啦但我相信現在社會婚育是脫鉤的往下看所以現在我們看到人工生殖法為什麼這要討論為什麼要趕快通過"},{"start":308.849,"end":324.01,"text":"因為我們婚姻已經平權了,但是人工生殖法還寫什麼?夫妻。現在婚姻平權我們要什麼名詞要定義才正確?是不是要配偶?是不是這樣?是不是這樣?不對嗎?所以人工生殖法這第一條要修正嗎?"},{"start":327.287,"end":353.735,"text":"配偶嘛!配偶來取代夫妻你支不支持?當然要修正草案。對嘛!這個要符合我們法制一直沒有,再往下一條,再往下一個。另外呢,其實啊,婚育脫鉤,其實因為懷孕的是女性,是母體。居然我們看到有個中國女企業家,欸她就要求小孩啊,她求了四個欸。企業家,女性企業家生小孩有人會問她說你結婚了沒有嗎?寶丁你告訴我聽人家講。"},{"start":355.543,"end":377.597,"text":"以前有一個跟高鐵有關的一個大型的工程公司的一個董事長,他也是一樣啊,他有小孩啊,你有跟他問說你記錯沒有?你有這樣問嗎?不會嘛,沒理由嘛,你問這種啊,是不是這樣?好,但是問題是為什麼代理運母,大家這麼多人反對或有爭議?我先問你,部長你喝過咖啡嗎?你喝過色香貓咖啡嗎?"},{"start":379.761,"end":404.903,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立"},{"start":408.488,"end":429.542,"text":"我平常是沒吃過松露口味冰淇淋而已,我沒吃過松露。色香貓咖啡很珍惜,自然取得非常難得,我們愛好咖啡的人,假設都喜歡。但是後來我看的時候都很發現說,喔!色香貓咖啡不可以泡菜喝,它跟什麼關係?因為現在六大國家知道色香貓咖啡很流行啊,它把色香貓抓來關在籠子裡。"},{"start":431.604,"end":455.675,"text":"每天強迫他吃咖啡豆,他自然吃飽了脹脹的就排出來嘛。那你就會這樣排出來的麝香貓咖啡豆,你忍心吃嗎?有沒有對麝香貓有身體上的影響?不自然。所以說,連動物權我們都要維護了。所以為什麼麝香貓咖啡豆會產生這樣的一個情況呢?因為商業化。"},{"start":456.806,"end":481.166,"text":"如果只是一個自然的環境原始部落的人檢視到色香貓咖啡豆自然排移的那很自然但是為了廣大的商業市場需求他去捕捉了色香貓強迫他產出這就是商業化的後果不然你知道我這樣拐了一個大彎你知道為什麼代理孕母引起女權、婦女權益重視婦女權益者的一些疑慮了吧"},{"start":482.182,"end":511.38,"text":"再下一頁。你還知道喔?了解喔?所以我今天呢,不是建議你以後不要喝色羊毛咖啡。我還建議你啊,審慎的去看一下這麼多版本的人工生殖法為什麼民進黨委員所提出的沒有代理運母?因為三個原因,第一,生育是天賦人權。第二,婚育是脫鉤。第三,不可以用商業化的方式造成人權的侵害,你同意嗎?"},{"start":514.534,"end":539.645,"text":"我再講一次齁生育是天賦人權你同意嗎?同意我們人工生殖法透過技術的改變解決這個需求你同意嗎?同意那婚育是可以脫鉤處理的你同意嗎?我們人工生殖法有沒有限制在婚姻關係裡面才可以從事?有沒有規定?沒有嘛但是最後我們就擔心的是什麼?這樣的一個醫學技術如果被商業化"},{"start":541.136,"end":555.428,"text":"我再問一下,抱歉,在我村區裡面,我有個村民過去都要洗身,一段時間沒看到,回來去就好,問說你最近去什麼?他說出國渡假,你怎麼去哪裡渡假?我們事務委員都知道,他去對面渡假,幾個月後換一個郵寄回來。這種事情,我們在社會裡面都知道他的痛苦,他的無奈。"},{"start":569.608,"end":592.109,"text":"但是他為什麼沒有在國內做?因為國內的器官移植是很嚴格的規定。我有一個很認識的好朋友,年事已高,比我年紀還大的媽媽,為了自己的孩子,為了自己的老公,我忘了是老公還是孩子,我真的忘記了。這都很重要的一個人。他把他的腎捐給他。那是親人之間的互助。一旦商業化,你覺得會不會有風險?"},{"start":595.428,"end":617.842,"text":"會不會有風險?當然會有風險所以說嘛我們沒有反對任何可能性但是人工生殖既然急迫需要解決一些人的問題但是不能解決所有人的所有問題是不是我們人工生殖法繼續推進但是有商業化把母體商業化風險的這個代理孕母我們暫時的求同存異脫鉤處理你支持嗎?"},{"start":619.209,"end":621.332,"text":"我應該從來沒有喝過。我也五年沒喝咖啡了。"}]}},{"id":"157890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d218733435f777d178ba99904554a4baaac06b08ba57c1938fd7e402dd021e2a3415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:14:20 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我想謝前部長是一個婦產科醫師也是一個很有愛心的醫師我相信他是站在怎麼樣來關心更多人民的心情來這樣的一個作為好,從去年"},{"start":291.38,"end":317.026,"text":"我們就延續到了今年嘛今年五月這個是由衛福部預告的草案這不是台灣民眾黨預告的草案我們的衛福部預告的草案說了什麼他說為了讓無子宮因子宮與免疫疾病導致懷孕或分娩將產生嚴重危害及生命安全的婦女以及我們同性婚姻的朋友們能夠"},{"start":320.222,"end":346.758,"text":"借由代孕生殖技術的協助達到生育子女的目的,保障他的家庭權,維護代理育母、代孕生殖子女及委託方三方的權益。這個是衛福部所公告的草案嗎?是,在5月14號公告的。衛福部當初在公告這個草案的時候,是為了要侵害我們女性朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":348.906,"end":361.854,"text":"當然不是這樣的目的啦是希望去解決去幫忙更多的因為我覺得齁在討論這麼嚴肅的公共政策的議題的時候我們在心態上面啊要趨於和緩"},{"start":363.632,"end":365.615,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查��"},{"start":378.991,"end":400.055,"text":"我們整個歷程看下來整個社會都知道這是個嚴肅的問題我們要保護小孩子也要保護女性也要兼顧其他真的沒有辦法有生育能力的國人同胞大家共同的權益在這樣子的基礎上12月的時候"},{"start":401.781,"end":417.966,"text":"讓大家真的蠻詫異的我們的國建署署長早上才說沒有預設立場到了下午馬上改口說要脫鉤處理這個政策急轉彎的大轉折部長到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":419.068,"end":439.603,"text":"是的,我還是要跟委員報告,那個其實在公告預告以後就聽到很多當然反對的聲音,那所以我們在部裡面其實一直在研議,沒有說急轉彎,但是我們還是希望原來用公告的版一直討論,討論繼續討論,那到最後的確是發現"},{"start":443.085,"end":444.607,"text":"我聽到您的想法了啦那可是我也想利用這個質詢的機會"},{"start":460.987,"end":474.447,"text":"讓你聽聽另外一邊不同的想法因為也有長期在研究這個議題為了這個事情在努力大家都很尊敬的都很尊敬的在一屆這邊的研究同仁說"},{"start":475.729,"end":497.98,"text":"站在一屆的看法,事實上大家是希望說有好的配套措施以後能夠趕快進行,否則的話真的遙遙無期啊,不曉得要拖到什麼時候啊。我希望這一方的聲音衛福部也能夠聽到,不要有任何的預設立場。"},{"start":500.08,"end":524.993,"text":"因為陳美洲醫師是我的學生,我也了解他在不印證方面幫忙我,他是不印證醫學會的理事長。在不印證方面也幫我們在試管、嬰兒方面貢獻非常的多。當然在婦產科醫學會方面就有比較中立討論的聲音,所以我們都會聽所有的開放的"},{"start":525.913,"end":530.354,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":550.371,"end":560.445,"text":"這個都他說的啦我字都全部標起來了我不會去隨便捏造人家沒有說的話啦好沒有關係啦最後一點時間我提醒部長一件事喔"},{"start":561.61,"end":584.263,"text":"昨天我問你,針對有關於國外醫科牙醫學歷的採認,你在這邊承諾我會維持2017年最嚴格的標準,你還記得嗎?是的,絕對記得。但今天本土小牙醫聯盟又開記者會了,說你們現在的醫師法施行細則大開後門。"},{"start":586.837,"end":601.678,"text":"大開後門跟你當初所講的維持最嚴格的標準他們認為是一場騙局啊你有沒有什麼話想說?報告委員這個部分吼我們他的確在之前有這樣的疑惑也畫了很多重點"},{"start":602.499,"end":624.569,"text":"那我們有一次左院長請他們大家還有幾個代表到來談那當時有針對這個細則我想意思是有很做很詳細的一個跟他解釋那如果說未來還有真的覺得不放心的地方今天早上10點開記者會我從頭到尾都聽完了所以你講的是跟人家解釋的很清楚是發生在什麼時候"},{"start":626.584,"end":632.631,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具"},{"start":642.298,"end":646.501,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":657.612,"end":673.416,"text":"他們如果所提出來的質疑衛福部覺得有誤會的,就要去說明清楚。但是如果真的有問題的,恐怕衛福部也要重新的再斟酌啊。是的,沒問題,一定這樣做。OK,好,謝謝。好,謝委員。好,謝謝黃委員,謝謝部長。"}]}},{"id":"157896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d215acd9b31590ecfd0a99904554a4baaac871116ad264925f51c587096f49c00dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"13:16:42 - 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案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":62.988,"end":87.478,"text":"其實大家也一直在說賴清德當時候的委員在2002年的時候第5屆第一會期他那時候也擔任召委所以他們提出那個人工生殖法草案的過程裡面也是有非常多的討論在處理當中後來為什麼會針對這個人工生殖法得到一個最後的結論"},{"start":89.279,"end":115.517,"text":"的確那個時候包括賴醫師還有簡兆棟醫師這都是我們的前輩很可惜簡兆棟醫師是剛好最近他過世了非常可惜他們是同意的同意的理由是因為他們認為醫學科技進步到現在那個當時應該要讓想孕但身體不允許的女性有代理孕母這種選擇方式"},{"start":117.798,"end":131.249,"text":"但是同時那個時候也是另外一個高明健醫師他是個神尖外科醫師他代表親民黨另外國民黨的梁立煌立委他們都持相位保守的一個態度"},{"start":132.628,"end":156.711,"text":"他們保守態度並不是說認為這個在技術上的問題而是很擔心如果草率通過的話可能會導致代理孕母犯難衝擊原來的夫妻關係因為畢竟嬰兒是有生命的不像商品賣掉就沒事了我想跟我們今天討論的過程應該是還是有一些類似"},{"start":157.632,"end":180.253,"text":"所以最後的結果就是他在提案三年以後就因為這個相關的關係法案主要都是為了要確保不孕者與人工生殖子女的權益將提出新版本那時候賴總統賴清德委員是這樣講那刪除原版有關代理孕母的章節那時候行政院也準備要針對代理"},{"start":181.434,"end":206.224,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。因為這樣的努力跟後來經過大家的這些折衝以後終於這個2007年三讀通過沒有包含代理孕母的人工生殖法這個是今天今天是12月3號經濟日報一個報導我想這樣相對可以讓大家更理解雖然賴總統"},{"start":207.705,"end":234.532,"text":"在那個時候是非常認同人工生殖法裡面如果有相關的這個代孕的話是有幫助需要的有需求者可是也因為有太多不同的想法跟意見所以經過處理以後人工生殖法那時候就沒有包含這個代理孕母的部分所以我想透過這個報導大家也可以比較清楚知道"},{"start":235.552,"end":254.953,"text":"在總統並沒有改變他的意見他只是因為各種處理的需求之下我們現在看到了這個結果那從這邊來出發我們來了解為什麼為什麼我們會認為需要透過我們針對於婦女懷孕到生產到胎兒當中"},{"start":256.354,"end":280.553,"text":"有多少風險大家應該不要以為懷孕生產是很自然很低風險的一個對於要當媽媽的人還是需要注意這樣的風險對於社會來講他也要注意到要生產生一個寶寶出來不是那麼容易那這個風險到底有多高"},{"start":281.514,"end":300.276,"text":"我們可以看到到2021年那一年的新生兒死亡人數是425人每千位的活產裡面死亡率是2.7為了要懷一個寶寶要生產當年的孕婦死亡22人每死亡活產就有14位"},{"start":301.397,"end":326.904,"text":"那這樣的成績跟全球比起來到底好不好?其實如果跟OECD國家比較起來我們真的是有很大需要進步的空間因為我們跟日本跟韓國比起來這個數字呢都是會讓我們心驚膽跳人數看起來好像不多可是比例我們應該可以讓它更改善這是孕婦死亡的部分"},{"start":327.504,"end":329.505,"text":"在科學上很難做到零死亡,我們都理解。可是如果其他國家可以那麼好,那台灣我們可以怎麼做會比較好呢?"},{"start":351.779,"end":370.916,"text":"我們在請部長回答之前我們先了解一下人工生殖出來的這些寶寶們他們其實有一些是具有人工缺陷人工造成了一些身體或體狀上的問題那這個萬一是代理孕母生下來以後其實前面的委員也都"},{"start":372.017,"end":397.347,"text":"一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修"},{"start":399.669,"end":426.157,"text":"我想這個就是我們現在的一個健康數據裡面我們醫界的一個痛點也是我們一直想要努力的在健康台灣裡面也特別針對新生偶死亡率的一個降低來做一個非常大的重要的目標我想這個從運期到新生偶的團隊"},{"start":428.234,"end":451.356,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 與產後的照顧,這都是要來給足夠的資源,才有辦法把剛剛提的這幾個事據來講。」總統在打掉健康台灣裡面其實也針對這些問題也編了很多要求跟很多經費一起來改善,所以討論到今天的這個草案裡面第6條"},{"start":452.717,"end":476.368,"text":"包括說人工生殖子女最佳利益我們會有一些方式來請做一些後續的處理做一些遵循事項的一些要求那第23條委託這個配偶委託代理孕母的代孕之前要有很多的諮詢那第30條代理服務機構的資格等等這個將來如果立法"},{"start":476.988,"end":484.294,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":492.461,"end":508.853,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第13次聯席會議．立法院第14次聯席會議．立法院"},{"start":514.957,"end":522.179,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":543.287,"end":552.781,"text":"有關於代理孕母入法其實還有三個地方要非常注意的包括說我們剛剛有看到台灣目前不管是"},{"start":554.284,"end":580.492,"text":"自然生產或者是透過人工生殖法所生出來的這些寶寶們他們的醫療跟健康風險目前似乎是無法排除的那如果無法排除的話那萬一代理孕母又入法那從人權、從倫理還有法律的角度那我們可以允許健康風險轉嫁到另外一位他要幫人家做一個代理孕母的這些"},{"start":581.732,"end":589.071,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":591.493,"end":595.655,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":613.666,"end":631.205,"text":"好,這也是大家所擔心的啦齁,那我想我們未來齁,在第二階段的來處理這個部分的時候,會把這些問題,不管是在他的位階,或者他的內容,做更周全的討論跟共識。是。"},{"start":632.746,"end":658.276,"text":"所以如果能夠讓已經有很好共識而且基本上那風險相對是可以接受的我們希望他能夠在這個可以討論之下大家共同來確立那如果是真的非常非常多的這些不同意見的話我想真的大家要三思那最後其實要麻煩部裡面要來加強對代理孕母醫療風險的研究我們剛剛看到的是"},{"start":659.056,"end":679.903,"text":"一般的這些懷孕的過程裡面不管是死亡率或者是這個新生兒的這些問題那對於代理孕母他有多少風險也許當然我們自己台灣沒有相關的資料可是國際上應該有一些資料可以當參考那今年的在6月25號報導者他們就有報導相關的經驗給大家做參考"},{"start":684.365,"end":712.465,"text":"另外荷蘭針對於代理孕母10年的經驗裏面他們是立他的這種代理孕母之下他們研究發現說代理孕母跟一般的這個來孕的過程其實真的風險是不一樣的所以這些資訊希望透過部裏面不管是要自行研究或委託專家學者來做研究也希望讓這個資訊能夠讓更多的民眾可以知悉好的我們在這方面再收集更多的資料"},{"start":713.608,"end":713.89,"text":"主席王偉仁"}]}},{"id":"157891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157891","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21b31aebe54dd0043da99904554a4baaac06b08ba57c1938fd420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:25:46 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«人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":230.402,"end":251.281,"text":"大概我們也很希望原來的公告預告的法能夠再多做討論所以一直在研議研議那其實已經他是原來是用專章所以我們很早就有說把把這個部分因為比較爭議把它延後再來處理的版本很早就所以其實是沒有"},{"start":252.262,"end":270.987,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案�"},{"start":281.175,"end":292.402,"text":"我們到最後因為我們的召委已經排了審查所以衛福部還是要表達呈現一個立場那請教你說你沒有提轉彎你在什麼時候決定脫鉤決定脫鉤在什麼時候因為你說每一個人體驗都很好我也不希望說應該有幾個禮拜前大家都民主國家本來就是有自己的立場幾個禮拜前應該就決定脫鉤的立場什麼時候"},{"start":308.097,"end":315.581,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":337.791,"end":365.948,"text":"因為當時想說還在討論的過程當中但是因為我們今天排的審查我想衛福部還是要有一個立場來論述那你這樣子說是打臉的國建署喔因為國建署在當天說的他沒有他早上還說沒有預設立場下午才說是透過可是現在部長你告訴我們的是三個禮拜前就已經政策方向是要脫鉤是不是"},{"start":367.709,"end":376.861,"text":"我想吳市長當時的媒體的一個呈現只是說我們本來就一直在走程序請教您現在所說的行政院也知道你要決定是脫鉤嗎?"},{"start":383.625,"end":396.535,"text":"你這個三個禮拜前決定這個方向,那行政院你有沒有報告給行政院長這麼重大的法案?所以我們當然有報告,有跟行政院說明。就你在三個禮拜前決定要脫鉤之後有跟行政院報告?"},{"start":412.647,"end":435.615,"text":"有給行政院報告。那行政院的方向也跟你的方向是一樣的嗎?因為行政院當然是尊重我們專業的一個立場。很多人希望行政院要有行政院版本。什麼時候會出來?行政院版本我們現在完成以後就會送姓評會。"},{"start":441.639,"end":454.362,"text":"在縣北影響評估,那我們預計看看能不能12月底能夠送到行政院預計你們要在12月底送到行政院去,那所以這個會期是來不及囉?這個會期會來不及囉?我想我們已經"},{"start":463.188,"end":479.238,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分"},{"start":484.971,"end":513.833,"text":"你現在給我一個答案叫12月底12月底你的會送到行政院嗎?是不是?從蠻早以前就一直...不是,部長我們來討論一下也就是說各方的意見我們都給予尊重但是一個就是讓需要者他有方向而且小孩的保護是很重要那接下來我們討論到的也就是說在這個月12月底你衛福部的版本會送到行政院"},{"start":514.534,"end":517.022,"text":"那行政院大概什麼時候會送到立法院來呢?"},{"start":522.654,"end":549.323,"text":"當然這個要看行政院審查的進度。你剛剛不是說你給行政院報告了嗎?你給行政院報告了,他尊重你的專業啊。那是大方向,但是整個條文的細節當然是要討論,要把它設計得更完整嘛,然後才能送出去。那你自己預估呢?這個當然流程就必須照行政的流程走。那部長在你的預估呢?你大概什麼時候行政院本會送到立法院來呢?"},{"start":553.123,"end":573.357,"text":"因為行政院的流程說實在我也不敢說把握,因為他們一直要先審查嘛。不然我們一名的召集人,他是非常的用心讓大家可以好好的來討論。好,有任何的進度我想我隨時跟召委這邊報告。那我希望要知道啊。"},{"start":575.492,"end":594.313,"text":"我希望本席希望要知道啊也跟委員楊委員這邊報告不是就報告我們希望你要努力因為大家這麼重大的法案各自大家都有立場其實真的是真的是非常努力啦開了那麼多場專家會我想很多包括陳憲輝委員都說他也都被"},{"start":594.913,"end":596.055,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":611.013,"end":636.137,"text":"一定審慎,我們勇於承擔,然後審慎來進行。我們還是一樣一個原則,就是讓有需要的人,他有所方向。第二個是立他,而且是要保護小孩為原則。我們希望這個進度可以聽到一個進度。我們不但要保護小孩,要保護弱勢。所以要去了解到真正,今天大家討論了很多真正寶貴的意見,我們都會好好來解決。謝謝委員。謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝部長。"},{"start":640.519,"end":641.949,"text":"那接下來我們請宗教評委員"}]}},{"id":"157902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157902","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21f9877ffa1f812b4ba99904554a4baaac90a1da7b6f6bcb9d11b2de8b317ab69f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"13:54:57 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那我想問一下因為這個流程上面我有一個疑點我也想要請教一下就是說你剛剛有提到說我們現在預告嘛預告完之後呢收集意見之後嘛還有在這個性別影響評估的這個流程還在進行中嘛那我想問"},{"start":146.095,"end":162.709,"text":"對嗎?目前在性別影響評估中。對嘛,現在性別影響評估還在進行中嘛,對不對?我這個只是想請教這個流程上面喔,你看喔,如果我今天預告收集了非常多的意見回來,那我的性別影響性評估裡面萬一跟這個意見有對立的時候,那要怎麼處理呢?"},{"start":167.412,"end":191.989,"text":"我只在想提出一個討論哪一個想法未來我們是不是有可能先做一個性別影響性評估先了解因為這是一個很重大的法案嘛影響到女性的身體自主權嘛我們是不是可以先做這個性別影響性評估之後再把它併入這個再把它進入這個預告的流程呢這樣子收集來的回見意見我們會不會比較好收斂呢"},{"start":193.128,"end":215.288,"text":"我們未來會尊重先這樣的整體的規定,如果是可以修訂我們可以討論。好,這邊就是提供一個參考。那再來就是說,我想要針對於就是,因為大家在講這些待遇的時候,其實我比較少聽見有關於兒童權利的相關的討論。所以我也想要請教,就是部長可不可以也一併一起上來?"},{"start":219.67,"end":248.823,"text":"委員好就是說我們現在公布的這個草文條案跟兒童有關係的是42條到第46條那有關於兒童在成長階段對於自己的身世感到疑惑想要進一步了解自己身世的時候有關的條文就是在上面寫的這一條子女有權查詢捐贈人的種族膚色和血型以及其他有沒有違反醫療資訊或違反法律的情形但是我們也有另外一條其實是有規定"},{"start":251.656,"end":273.002,"text":"擬具:「醫療機構要收集捐贈人的身份證字號和病歷等資訊,有身份證字號基本上就跟你有個資是一模一樣的東西。」所以到底在這個立法說明上面呢,你們說是這樣的資訊落差呢是要在平衡這個捐贈人的隱私以及人工生殖子女的血緣認知權和兒少最佳利益。"},{"start":274.042,"end":298.503,"text":"那我想問喔如果說我們現在這個法規執行的那就有可能人工生殖的子女在成長過程之中他如果想要了解自己的身世的時候他只能得到膚色、種族以及血型但是他明明就知道政府和醫療機構其實擁有所有的個資這條法告訴他就是我們都知道但你不能查詢我想了解這件事情呢到底會不會影響到"},{"start":300.225,"end":317.103,"text":"對自己的定位、對自己的認知產生疑惑,會不會影響到他的生長,在這過程之中有沒有什麼樣的挫折,會不會影響到他自己各種的一些認同等等的。我想知道這個兒童權益的影響性評估到底有沒有做啊?"},{"start":319.136,"end":333.694,"text":"我們這個預告版的確有做兒童權益最佳評估那現在的透過版也有在做兒童就是權益評估我想知道可不可以再給我簡單的說明是怎麼做的呢"},{"start":334.295,"end":358.974,"text":"就是我們的兒少的委員來幫我們審查整個法案到底有沒有哪一些缺失或者哪一些需要改進的哪一些違反兒少權利的部分這個是當初所規定的那這個法條的設計其實跟委員報告兒童成長到18歲成年或者是他中間碰到有一些生理疾病會得導致現身血緣的關係的時候那他可以提出請求要支息"},{"start":360.194,"end":381.609,"text":"當然也要尊重當初見證者同不同意,如果同意的話就可以讓他自息。所以我想確認一下,聽起來在這個部分我們在兒少影響性評估的時候,專家學者有提供的意見就是到18歲的時候他可以請求,是嗎?是。我也想了解另外一個問題是說,如果今天這個小孩他是先天性疾患,"},{"start":382.863,"end":409.52,"text":"他出生了那這個時候他到底代理育母說要託付要請代理育母生的這個就算埋主好了啦這個埋主他說這個小孩我不要那代理育母也沒有辦法去照顧他的時候那這個小孩大概怎麼辦啊這個法律上規定的就是說當他委託企業成立了以後未來剩下來的子女就是委託這個"},{"start":411.431,"end":425.558,"text":"未來判斷的子女就是委託者是不是?好那如果說在這個假設他在成長的過程之中遇到了一些假設這個委託者就心不甘情不願啊把他送出去啊送養的話那這個對這樣子的小孩子來說公平嗎?這個必須要說法律上規定我們在CA上就已經有說明了跟委員做報告那如果未來假設有這樣的這個法律進行討論的時候有規模不足的時候也謝謝委員給我們指導"},{"start":440.37,"end":460.172,"text":"好沒關係齁因為我想要了解因為你們竟然說你有做兒少的影響性評估嘛那我就希望把這完整的報告提供到我的辦公室我想要來詳細的研讀到底有哪些部分我們還應該要再來去做討論的齁因為我覺得這個兒少的權益是在我的所有討論中比較少聽見的齁那再來喔就是說呃"},{"start":469.904,"end":493.961,"text":"草案第21條有規定委託配偶的身份條件。其中第一項第五款第四目裡面有規定同志家庭的身份。第四目說委託的配偶都必須是男性,就可以委託進行人工生殖。第五目則說女同志家庭必須兩邊都有無子宮無法懷孕免疫疾病生命威脅,其中一項狀況才能進行人工生殖。"},{"start":494.921,"end":518.814,"text":"我想請教我有點疑惑男同志家庭沒有上述的健康疑慮就可以委託做這個人工生殖嗎?但是為什麼女同志家庭一定要雙方都有生理上的疑慮才能委託呢?這個法條設計是什麼?是基於什麼樣子的原因呢?所以我們已經假設女同志家庭一定會代孕嗎?其中一人一定會代孕嗎?假設他要做代孕的話"},{"start":522.255,"end":541.992,"text":"這兩個是不一樣跟剛剛提到的如果是女同志她自己用自己的那當然就在人工生殖法去規定的這個是有關代孕的部分而且在上面寫的就是說他必須就是委託的那委託才有這個限制委託的時候才會有這個限制嗎可是男生男同志上面好像就沒有相關的健康疑慮就可以委託進行人工生殖這好像是對於女同志來說要求比較高"},{"start":550.219,"end":552.881,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":574.575,"end":600.266,"text":"發言去講這是女人和女人的戰爭我認為這樣子的一個發言其實是非常輕蔑的因為這其實是對女性影響非常盛大的重大的一個法案而且這個法案之所以會起來都是有相當多的女性是為了男人去滿足傳宗接代的任務所以今天才會有一部分的人必須去做這樣子的事情"},{"start":601.126,"end":615.33,"text":"我認為身為一位男性,尤其還是一位醫師的蘇清泉召委,不應該以一種隔岸觀火的態度來看待這個法案。我希望未來蘇清泉委員在相關的發言上面都可以更為慎重,而且更有性別平等的意識。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d219251580657d97619a99904554a4baaac90a1da7b6f6bcb9da3edfb217b8fd1275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:36:34 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«人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":344.915,"end":356.481,"text":"然後再來就是說我們在野黨團目前支持這個人工生殖網蠟路代孕很有可能這個代孕法規會三度通過那屆時外務部要怎麼處理這是現實現狀因為今天召委已經把這個安排進來了嘛就大家討論嘛你如果相關細則相關配套都要在討論中那現在"},{"start":374.258,"end":385.229,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第13次聯席會議．立法院第14次聯席會議．立法院第15次"},{"start":397.631,"end":404.253,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「"},{"start":405.522,"end":430.197,"text":"這個法案你們怎麼應應?所以第一個我們跟委員報告所以因為我們覺得還有很多需要釐清需要溝通所以我們的衛生部的立場是希望先在單身女性跟女同性配偶這個部分先行那後續因為比較多需要更嚴謹來討論的來配套措施的所以我們這個部分在"},{"start":432.479,"end":443.064,"text":"第二階段以後再來我們再好好的來演繹這樣。我剛剛請教的問題很清楚嘛,萬一這個法案三度通過,那它就沒有侷限在哪一個部分喔?"},{"start":444.301,"end":468.558,"text":"所以你回答我這樣是好像這個法律是你修的當然我們尊重立法院的各位立法委員的意見那我們站在過去多年來一直研議到怎麼樣把最先進行做好的情況之下我們目前的立場是這樣也希望委員們能夠瞭解我們現在行政部門的立場"},{"start":469.538,"end":486.377,"text":"我現在是提出事情啦好不好我知道如果你相關的配套私營細則都還不見成熟的情況之下這個法律如果進到三讀之後你會務部、國建署你們要如何去應應還是搞到最後"},{"start":487.728,"end":500.292,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生"},{"start":507.825,"end":519.233,"text":"參事是不是?謝謝王參事。我要請教你就是說對於人工生殖法納入代理運母有什麼樣的看法跟立場?在原有的這個現有的法律上會不會有造成相關的一些衝突?"},{"start":521.761,"end":548.641,"text":"跟委員報告因為人工生殖子女適用民法其實是會有疑義的所以我們就比如說代理孕母是分娩者跟卵子提供者是不同的人那懷胎生產的婦女就不一定會跟所出生的子女有血緣上的聯絡那我們民法規定的設計本來是以有沒有婚姻關係所生的子女來分婚生子女或非婚生子女或者是用血緣關係來看"},{"start":549.662,"end":556.811,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。規定規定的所以如果有反正好認為他不是他的婚生子女話他是可以"},{"start":564.075,"end":570.5,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":591.738,"end":594.849,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":598.752,"end":623.399,"text":"我能不能再簡單請教一個問題,代孕者與代孕所生的子女這個血清的問題要如何處理?血清的問題?因為其實就像收養一樣,因為我們代理孕母的規範如果是在人工生殖法,我們就一律都是視為婚生子女,視為就是擬製的血清。就是視為這個方式就跟我們收養一樣都是擬製的血清,那這個清等不會有問題。"},{"start":624.953,"end":631.928,"text":"輕的不會有問題。那現在相關的版本,各位委員的相關提幹的版本,你覺得有沒有什麼大的問題的存在?"},{"start":633.396,"end":656.641,"text":"你們應該有檢視過了嘛對不對今天你來列席大致上你的委員版本還是你都還沒有看過有看過了但是真的很複雜那真的很複雜連你都覺得很複雜了因為這涉及到很多社會倫理還有這個兒童權益還有育母的保障他們各方面還有社會的期待要怎麼滿足其實這個還蠻複雜的這很涉及專業"},{"start":659.242,"end":661.803,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":681.658,"end":698.288,"text":"事實上現在如果是在國外代理育母出生的孩子他們也是看看國外的規範是怎麼樣然後再經過我們國內的法律程序可能就是用就是認領或收養或者是經過法律訴訟的程序來確認"},{"start":699.844,"end":721.939,"text":"你覺得現在這樣的法律修正是可以處理的?你要講清楚喔你前面講很複雜後面又講說可以處理我覺得是有點衝突跟矛盾請參事要小心回答代理育母的這個問題我們都尊重主管機關如果準備好的話但是這個問題牽涉很多很複雜這個一定要從長計要審慎的評估"},{"start":726.102,"end":747.39,"text":"好,你前面的講法我有點如雷,好啦,好,你請回吧,小心啦,謝謝。好,我大致上釐清一些事情啦齁,那最後我再,主席再給我一分鐘就好齁。這個,這個部長你看一下頭影片。EAP,部長知道這是什麼吧?部長不知道,署長知道吧?"},{"start":754.165,"end":770.384,"text":"市長趕快跟我們...是是是,這個我們理事的專家專業。報告委員是員工協助方案?對啦對啦,要跟你知道,不然在書店都不知道。所以衛生部的員工很難接受到協助,危險的。"},{"start":771.704,"end":801.044,"text":"我現在司法法制委員會的時候,我追了這個事情兩年,上次總統府、下次委員還有各部會,包含現在在審預算過程裡面,我都會細看員工協助方案裡面到底怎樣去編列預算,那過去連預算科目都顯示不出來,那有的部會有預算科目顯示出來之後,編的機會少之又少,所以如何去協助這個員工,我就覺得很莫名其妙。員工發生事情我們是要接住,我們不是事後才在處理嘛,對不對?好,那你們要不要看一下你們怎麼編的?"},{"start":801.664,"end":801.903,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":803.099,"end":823.483,"text":"這個審預算的時候,我絕對會再問部長,然後也會問你們所屬的相關的機關,你們到底怎麼面對你們自己的同仁。你看下一頁。第二部是738,我不講那個預算跟實際的原理了,就直接講這樣的一個目前調查出來的。那738裡面員工生殖法部分條文是52,等於700人,700人一個人。社交屬159,12萬,也是700多。國界屬185,11萬,600人一個。食藥屬64,15萬,240。"},{"start":832.645,"end":849.613,"text":"檢管署一、三、四建保署2842位才編16萬等於57元一個人。博士你怎麼看?這樣好不好?感到?這個應該要加強。應該要加強。對啊你們預算都抽編了啊。預算都編了。現在是預算案。"},{"start":858.962,"end":879.331,"text":"這個我在你三位當部長之前我已經也提醒過衛生部、勞動部相關的部位我幾乎每一個部位我都有特別點到啦齁。那個到今天為止還是這個樣子。所以今天我們當覺得我們相關單位一直出現的這個霸凌的狀況,這其實裡面有工作適應、人際婚姻、家庭照顧、健康、法律等。"},{"start":880.848,"end":885.429,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":909.332,"end":920.082,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 、委"},{"start":924.884,"end":939.655,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案"},{"start":947.421,"end":949.482,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件》案"},{"start":965.528,"end":969.111,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等21人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":988.206,"end":1000.96,"text":"你們看一下啦齁,你們回去看怎麼如果做因應了。但是最後一個表格,又更奇怪。如果現在大家在面對這種霸凌的事件,院長也都交代一個星期內必須調查清楚。你們怎麼會人員異動在國會聯絡組,後面是寫零。"},{"start":1004.003,"end":1027.471,"text":"來,委員我簡單的報告齁,這個部分是有一個是那個屬於編制內,有一個編制內的,編制內部分我們確實是0沒錯,但是另外還有另外一個是因為我們有跟國會組這邊有跟衣服會那邊有請求他們來支援,他們那邊是,我沒有記錯的話應該是有兩位,所以如果要救這個部分,編制內的回答是沒錯,這樣。"},{"start":1029.781,"end":1046.334,"text":"所以我如果要看你的表要問清楚,不然我也會錯意嘛。沒關係,那個委員我後續,後續我…沒有,你這樣說我沒有主意把這個主意拿起來問,這樣我不對耶。沒有啦,不是啦。我們要檢討啦。沒有沒有,委員是我們自己啦,我們自己啦。沒有沒有,你這個所謂到底是幾個單位是存你講的這個經營。"},{"start":1049.758,"end":1064.143,"text":"你發展到証券中心也是零,很多地方都零就對了,所以我是覺得你要這樣搞倒不可能你要卸疑。市長,不知道你的批壓,你還給我印這樣。如果你那個數據是你們自己裡面在搞彌補,那這樣就不好了。請部長、請市長對這件事情多加注意,看怎樣積極回應,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"157905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21dfbe60b44f8be1bea99904554a4baaac90a1da7b6f6bcb9d7928a3d90b696a425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"14:05:25 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14:13:54","影片長度":"00:08:29","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T14:05:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T14:13:54+08:00","duration":509,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.95409375,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.391593750000002,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.69096875,"end":16.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.82159375,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.94784375,"end":23.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.05721875,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.80784375,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.40534375,"end":36.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.29534375,"end":55.650968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.27096875,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.84034375,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.49846875,"end":60.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.80221875,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.612218750000004,"end":67.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.59034375,"end":66.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.81784375000001,"end":71.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.37846875000001,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.40784375,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.56221875,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.30784375,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.11346875000001,"end":94.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.48471875,"end":94.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.68284375,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.94721875,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.74034375000001,"end":117.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.07159375,"end":119.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.04596875000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.58534375,"end":126.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.77909375,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.79534375,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.19096875,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.49096875,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.25409375,"end":173.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.68284375000002,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.28596875000002,"end":177.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.84284375000001,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.96096875,"end":179.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.44159375,"end":181.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.97721875000002,"end":198.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.28721875000002,"end":196.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.86471875,"end":203.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.55659375000002,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.76721875,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.66159375,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.80034375000002,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.42909375000002,"end":235.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.92659375000002,"end":238.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.46596875,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.20659375,"end":282.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.26096875,"end":286.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.63596875,"end":288.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.94784375,"end":289.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.26409375000003,"end":296.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.50346875,"end":299.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.60409375,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.88659375000003,"end":303.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.35471875,"end":305.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.99159375,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.66221875,"end":308.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.30346875000004,"end":310.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.85159375,"end":323.33909375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我們現在的立場就是這樣子好 這個立場不變齁好 那如果說要放寬現行的人工生殖法是用自己的身份不限於異性夫妻女性不論是她的婚姻的狀況其實都可以用自己的子宮生自己的孩子讓家的面貌更加的多元讓女性的人生規劃更有彈性 對嗎"},{"start":58.863,"end":71.462,"text":"對沒錯嘛是吧這個是我們自主女性對自己的職工有自主的權利嘛是不是選擇生或者是不生那我想這個部分應該沒有太多的疑義對不對是的"},{"start":73.383,"end":92.449,"text":"現今其實最多的聲音是在於所謂的代理孕母的部分那我想剛剛所講的這些不管是單身女性或者是女同事配偶適用於這個人工生殖法我們是不是應該這個是已經有高度的社會共識包含剛剛部長您也回答我了這個我們先優先來處理是的沒錯吧是的"},{"start":95.55,"end":116.779,"text":"接下來我們要來談到所謂的代理孕母的部分了我想代理孕母在目前這個所謂的共識其實在我們的聽到不管是民眾的聲音不管是女性的聲音其實這個部分都有很大的一個爭議那我想懷孕生子的過程"},{"start":118.58,"end":125.844,"text":"一、委員陳菁徽等22人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。adequate to the health and safety of women."},{"start":138.271,"end":139.011,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":161.548,"end":173.16,"text":"因為這個其實是跟女性的健康有關。我不曉得部長知不知道35歲以下的女性用人工生殖技術他們的活產率是多少?您知道嗎?使用人工35%"},{"start":180.512,"end":198.443,"text":"只有35%但是人工的生殖的技術也在這所謂的35歲以下的女性他們要成功懷孕也至少要試上兩次三次甚至多則七八次九十次您知道吧"},{"start":200.595,"end":225.321,"text":"要經過比較多次是我了解再來我們再講到為什麼會有這麼大的一個爭議最主要的是因為利他代孕只能給予必要的成本備用但是為人家代孕者其實多數是屬於所謂的經濟弱勢我相信這個在各國我們看到有所謂的代理孕母的情況"},{"start":226.261,"end":238.328,"text":"我相信部長你應該也時有所聞其實這對弱勢者來講他必須要高度付出的這個所謂的健康上的代價這個其實就是相對的剝削您同意嗎"},{"start":240.506,"end":262.047,"text":"好沒關係您在這裡可以不用回答但我們必須說這的確是剝削這對女性自主的一個身體上的健康的疑慮它的確是有一個一定的剝削好那另外呢我再次提醒喔就是許多的支持代孕的聲音都會是因為來自婆家的壓力"},{"start":262.768,"end":288.182,"text":"再來因為女人不能生我覺得我不完整包含陳昭之委員他在面對媒體訪問的時候在節目上說出養子對我而言終究是外人是別人的孩子如果有代孕幫我生下我血顏的孩子我不會選擇養子來到我們家他的孩子從7個月到現在30歲了應該如果我沒記錯的話如果"},{"start":291.146,"end":299.276,"text":"檸子出現在他的生活當中聽到自己的媽媽講出這種話。部長您做何感受啊?做何感受?應該是不太好的感受吧。好,所以怎麼可以因為"},{"start":310.885,"end":322.455,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":339.449,"end":339.97,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":361.284,"end":374.617,"text":"另外我再次提到如果代理育母我們假設一個狀況幫別人在做代孕的這個所謂的母體她自己本身在她的自己原生的家庭她是一個母親"},{"start":375.638,"end":376.098,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具⋯⋯"},{"start":392.369,"end":406.23,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":408.533,"end":415.602,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":428.151,"end":450.707,"text":"那如果剛剛講到幫人代孕者這個母體母親在懷孕的過程當中他發生了健康上重大的危機跟風險甚至死亡剝奪了人家本來在家庭當中他是一個母親的權利剝奪了孩子失去了母親我們衛福部請問可以承擔嗎?可以承擔嗎?署長我最想的就是問你你可以承擔嗎?"},{"start":458.211,"end":475.121,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":483.294,"end":493.977,"text":"待遇的爭議非常之大。如果我們真的要跟人工生殖技術要來一併做討論,我個人堅決反對,本席堅決反對,他應該要來做脫鉤處理。是,是,我們的立場現在是這樣。好,謝謝部長,謝謝署長,謝謝主席。謝謝,謝謝。謝謝郭委員,謝謝部長。來,陳俊宇"}]}},{"id":"157906","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157906","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21dcf3393f18977f7ea99904554a4baaac90a1da7b6f6bcb9d210c2463ee6481985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"14:14:05 - 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«人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":77.557,"end":86.841,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次"},{"start":110.233,"end":124.925,"text":"我那天去才發現定位的功能還可以同步讓你在全國各地工作的孩子們、家人們可以知道"},{"start":125.706,"end":137.992,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":154.08,"end":156.202,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":165.629,"end":188.245,"text":"我想這個當然除此之外就是說我剛剛補充一下我覺得這次去有學到一件蠻重要的事情就多人關懷這個部分我覺得很棒是因為他人數你即便到1000人他都還是可以有辦法處理的所以很多人一起來關懷家裡的長輩這是很棒的"},{"start":188.945,"end":201.898,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員"},{"start":204.7,"end":224.115,"text":"當然我想部立院也有注意到就是在這個健康照護員的部分他們都有多少有一些族裔的訓練這是很棒的但是我覺得可能這個部分還要再多加強一點因為畢竟譬如說你跟老人家說這個要測血氧或者是有一些"},{"start":226.016,"end":241.407,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委"},{"start":242.167,"end":268.527,"text":"在整個的這個說明我想在比如說這個有些人那天我們測試了一下部落的部落就在部落的長輩用族語再去再去分享這些資訊的時候其實那個氣氛是好的效果也是好的所以這個部分我就特別建議就可以再加強一些那當然"},{"start":270.95,"end":274.551,"text":"二、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":299.605,"end":327.714,"text":"委員一下齁我真的非常感謝委員長期為我們原鄉的居民的健康努力特別這個計畫非常有創建也是一個很好的示範齁那所以我們在也為請我們的衣服會齁衣服會這邊然後再請台東醫院來進行齁那其實成效相當的好我們現在在成功跟長兵已經提供了一百一千一百零五個個案服務齁"},{"start":328.615,"end":354.338,"text":"那我相信這樣的一個那個委員這樣爭取這樣一個典範的一個做法應該是一個未來在偏鄉地區可以把它更加的廣泛來落實是,那我想部長特別講到關鍵字,廣泛落實那我就要跟部長報告一個數據我們台東就是我們全國5萬多位長者是獨居的狀態"},{"start":355.559,"end":374.938,"text":"關於我們台東兩千多位獨居長者,其實他們的占比是我們全台東是第一名,5.51%,平均值是平均值的五倍。我們的台東第一名就是獨居老人最多,第一名。"},{"start":377.133,"end":395.398,"text":"在加上像花東、交通它整個地形就是很狹長啦你真的那個集中症那個真的要處理起來所以及早發現這件事情是很重要的所以我在這裡具體建議、要求"},{"start":397.518,"end":420.757,"text":"檸檬花蓮等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第2會期"},{"start":422.659,"end":425.76,"text":"二、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案》案。"},{"start":446.083,"end":462.699,"text":"對,那因為我按照數據比來這個臺東,我們依序是不是就是臺東做完花蓮座嗎?那這個部分你們研議大概需要多久?一個月行不行?"},{"start":466.902,"end":492.283,"text":"首先謝謝委員對我們這個支持不管是在成功還是長兵的啟動還是期中推廣會都是每一個活動都熱情的跟我們全程參與給我們做鼓勵這個計畫我們會遵照委員指示來盡量能夠推廣但是當然有在經費上面我們需要爭取經費的爭取如果能夠順利的話那我們在推廣上面就會更加的順暢"},{"start":493.8,"end":519.228,"text":"那部長已經說要廣泛落實嘛,他都已經給方向,所以部長應該會支持啦。我想做得好的地方我們就去把它擴張嘛。那個花蓮也是很需要,我想我們就...對啊,那我想如果就是反正我們大概東部優先來處理這個示範的部分。我們重視東部的人民的健康。好,謝謝。那我們是不是這個計畫研議一個月內可以..."},{"start":522.609,"end":550.183,"text":"好,那請議夫,沒關係,我們把計畫演繹,演繹看怎麼樣來進行。我一個月跟那個委員辦公室這邊報告。對啊,我就另外我快速快速的那個提一個很嚴重的問題齁,就是說,要,也是要問一下這個醫事司啊齁,就是說當,啊不然部長回答也是可以,因為這個大家都醫生都會知道喔,就一個人,如果心跳停止的時候會呈現什麼情形?"},{"start":551.618,"end":559.414,"text":"不然也可以說,這很簡單的對你來說心跳停止對啊心跳停止人會呈現什麼狀況?"},{"start":561.385,"end":585.561,"text":"如果心跳停止,血液就沒辦法到全身、沒辦法到腦部,就會昏迷。對。然後可能因為就會...沒有意識了嘛。就會延期休克,甚至死亡。好。那如果一個人他可以傳LINE,還可以拍照,然後他還可以講話,他可以很清楚有意識的跟人家溝通,那這個人應該不會是心跳停止吧?"},{"start":586.91,"end":588.351,"text":"這個時候應該不是心跳停止。"},{"start":616.99,"end":638.151,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。adequate 他的家人大概兩年四十到達醫院那家屬看到這個患者的時候他意思是清楚只是說他痛到快要沒有辦法講話那這位主人在急診的時候有做這個心電圖跟初學檢查的等等這些檢查那後來這個主人在醫院的期間病況就越來越嚴重後來在9月28號的時候很不幸他就走了"},{"start":638.812,"end":666.609,"text":"那這個家屬在院方的急診上認為說院方是不是在急診上有什麼樣疏失的情形所以申請了診斷證明還有在這個院期間所有的檢查的資料結果看到這個診斷證明書之後全家都沒有辦法接受因為上面寫著他竟然寫著到院前心跳停止所以他們接到的是一個心跳停止的患者的這個LINE嗎?"},{"start":668.57,"end":690.024,"text":"你不覺得說這個診斷證明的這個錯誤實在是太離譜了一個可以傳到醫院前還可以傳LINE的人你給他寫心跳到院前心跳停止這個是很常見可以容忍的疏失嗎?這個有證實嗎?我聽副處長說這個後來有更正"},{"start":696.173,"end":722.368,"text":"但這樣子的是因為後面可以更正所以沒有關係?不是沒有關係就是當然要檢討我想說縱使我們現在AI科技很發達那可能診斷證明就還是必須要由這個醫師人工填寫他診斷證明有誤差可能有時候在所難免但是當然心血管疾病的變化很快也是大家可以理解只是說這樣的診斷證明"},{"start":724.489,"end":729.37,"text":"部長你還是覺得這個是可以接受的錯誤嗎?而且這個還是我們的不利意願捏。這個可能要...這種錯誤到底我們可能要仔細來研究它整個過程。因為它說下面有寫到即等於當日接受緊急心腦管手術及艾克膜置放。"},{"start":750.533,"end":762.359,"text":"這個部分就是如果說他一來就必須要越課嘛,表示他心臟當時的狀況是不太好。不過你說他又會跟家人講話。還在傳賴啊。那是在監獄上還會傳賴嗎?他到時候還有議事啊。這樣是比較奇怪。"},{"start":771.504,"end":788.821,"text":"所以那個我想除了診斷證明這個烏龍以外那家屬明明填寫就是說在院期間的所有檢查資料包括抽血心電圖等等那他在急診室的時候明明有做過三次的心電圖可是醫院給的資料卻只有一次"},{"start":790.083,"end":818.449,"text":"如果從前面的疏失一直到後面又掃東掃西的那你覺得你是家屬的話你會覺得對這家醫院所有的一切你會有什麼想法而且這個人死了我們都理解因為我們處理很多醫療疏失我們都不願意再給醫護人員醫師醫護人員一些壓力但是我想我想這樣子的疏失好其實是"},{"start":819.815,"end":823.956,"text":"五、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 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我們現在開始開會初席委員已除法定人數現在開會本日議程為審查委員及黨團分別擬具人工生殖法部分條文修正草案總共16案現在介紹在場的委員陳昭志委員"},{"start":1837.362,"end":1858.66,"text":"陳慶威委員林業勤委員王振熙委員我們行政官員衛生福利部邱教授李建德次長吳釗鈞署長"},{"start":1865.413,"end":1880.475,"text":"法規會陳信成參事、法務部汪南鈞參事、內政部副政司副司長陳子和"},{"start":1884.204,"end":1905.992,"text":"施法院少年及家事廳廳長鍾玲法官郭耀明行政院信北平等會處長吳秀珍金融管理委員會保險局組長陳立軍"},{"start":1915.899,"end":1921.246,"text":"現在請提案委員說明提案的要旨每位委員兩分鐘謝衣鳯委員不來陳慶威委員說明"},{"start":1933.931,"end":1945.965,"text":"主席不好意思因為早上剛好王玉敏委員國民黨黨團都交代我就是講所有國民黨黨員黨團的提案所以議事人員可以幫我設定8分鐘嗎"},{"start":1949.761,"end":1952.364,"text":"兩分鐘啦兩分鐘啦還是兩分鐘啦"},{"start":1970.064,"end":1990.411,"text":"拜託啦拜託啦這比較複雜好啦好啦謝謝你身體有沒有比較好各位委員各位官員大家早安我是陳菁惠委員也是陳菁惠醫師今天其實非常感慨會在這邊做這樣子的發言是因為這個禮拜衛福部我們也看到他有一個大轉彎"},{"start":1991.811,"end":2018.424,"text":"對我來說為什麼這麼多委員還有黨團會希望我幫他們說也是因為他們尊重臨床的經驗還有醫療的專業我身為一個醫師因為醫術所以大家並不會因為政黨傾向而不來看我所以我手上的病人有單女有單男有女女有男男同志有一夫一妻甚至有跨性別這些我都有接觸過"},{"start":2020.245,"end":2045.473,"text":"也沒有人說不定我覺得我觀察起來還是偏向支持民進黨的居多這些病人也很可愛有時候成功他們會跟我說好啦我下次要改投國民黨我還開玩笑我說我又不能站在你旁邊我也看不到啦但是都會恭喜他我們其實呢我在這邊因為很多病人他們會私底下不斷的傳簡訊給我所以我也會在這邊幫你們講出你們的心聲我知道你們希望我幫你講話"},{"start":2050.194,"end":2075.21,"text":"那這幾天我接觸到幾個案例他們分別從很久以前就開始聯絡我有時候我也會打電話跟他們安慰一下因為他們從這個賴清德總統時任立委的時候就知道有提過代理運母後來第10屆我們現在本屆許許多多的委員也是有提出代理運母到衛福部的草案釋出的時候都在各大的報紙是頭版所以這些人攔起了一線希望"},{"start":2076.01,"end":2104.679,"text":"但是這個禮拜把他們從天堂重重的摔到地上甚至有人真的有憂鬱或是輕生的傾向我都有一一打電話去安慰他們有時候也真的沒有辦法太深入他們的感情因為我還是要保持一點醫療的專業但我還是跟大家分享一下為什麼我認為大家可以審慎的去討論所有這些人工生殖之前公布的草案是因為比如說南南同志"},{"start":2105.599,"end":2111.106,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具⋯⋯"},{"start":2120.256,"end":2121.977,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2141.111,"end":2160.252,"text":"此問題明明就是一個民生問題而且不分黨派的問題但我不知道為什麼最近卻變成一個政治議題所以我也在網路上安慰他們有這個先天五子宮的人他說他沒有他想要出來開記者會可是他沒有辦法他從小他父母就告訴他如果你揭露你先天五子宮你"},{"start":2160.612,"end":2161.412,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":2177.6,"end":2178.521,"text":"一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案。」案。"},{"start":2195.563,"end":2212.559,"text":"但是這個禮拜的大轉彎讓這些人真的非常的痛苦因為他們不曉得他們到底是不是應該好那就存錢到國外去我也有病人他是流產了14次他生第一胎跟生第二胎都是靠代理孕母中間存錢是存了10年啊還有"},{"start":2215.141,"end":2228.47,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由"},{"start":2245.621,"end":2269.975,"text":"所以我覺得今天我們是在討論的是面臨臺灣未來的生態從1970年女生的生育年齡大概是在20到30但是到現在我們平均年齡已經拉到31、3231、32等等質詢的時候我也會提供一些數據給大家參考許許多多可能會影響到生育的這些良性的疾病也會在30到50歲之間發生所以這個問題"},{"start":2274.477,"end":2287.087,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及�"},{"start":2302.7,"end":2309.763,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第3次聯席會議：立法院第4次聯席會議：立法院第5次聯席會議：立法院第6次聯席會議：立法院第7次聯席會議：立法院第8次聯席會議：立法院第9次聯席會議：立法院第10次聯席會議：立法院第11次聯席會議：立法院第12次聯席會議：立法院第12次聯席會議：立法院第13次"},{"start":2320.247,"end":2333.015,"text":"大轉彎之後,我相信各位委員也有認識我們一個升職的世界上有名的教父,也同時是我們國策顧問。國策顧問在接受記者的電訪時表示說,代理母30年在台灣也辦了30多場的公聽會,經過30年時機成熟,應該要讓其立法。"},{"start":2342.641,"end":2369.243,"text":"當然針對女性團體擔心的勿用子宮問題可以用嚴格的法律來去規範規範脫鉤討論的話只會無疾而終原地踏步所以我也請主席可以在我們接下來好幾場會議都做一些公開的裁示因為其實面對執政黨的委員我只有很卑微的要求我希望大家可以有一個立場因為這些病人啊他有一個很重要的事就是他是不是要存錢"},{"start":2370.484,"end":2399.623,"text":"但是你們如果可以公開你們的立場的話他們可以決定他們趕快存捐趕快出國還是他們要等待你們的脫鉤那前幾天呢剛好王振旭委員就坐在我的對面然後旁邊還有廖瑋祥委員然後旁邊還有陳昭芝委員所以王振旭委員呢就安慰了陳昭芝委員因為他們兩個長期是癌症病友的好戰友也同時舉辦了非常多的公聽會王振旭委員也安慰了陳昭芝委員說我一定會幫你立轉法是吧王振旭委員"},{"start":2400.884,"end":2402.745,"text":"等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2418.41,"end":2420.251,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":2442.905,"end":2453.458,"text":"當然也是從賴清德總統時任委員我只是一個小小的醫學生說實在的現在反對的人說啊原來不知道單女不能懷孕沒有疾病馬上結束馬上結束謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":2460.973,"end":2488.638,"text":"快結束了謝謝不好意思所以我也在這邊非常感謝衛福部的官員因為為什麼我們會提出這樣的草案也是因為許許多多不想跟的學者他們在這幾年都有被你們找去做專家會議還有出國考察請國外的專家過來等等的才列出這樣子的草案所以公務人員其實也非常的辛苦在這邊非常感謝大家之前草案提出來所有所有的貢獻謝謝"},{"start":2491.368,"end":2518.204,"text":"謝謝陳昭柱委員的說明。陳慶輝委員的說明。來,黃捷委員有在嗎?沒有。林宜瑾委員說明。煥雲委員沒有,不在。林柱英委員請說明。"},{"start":2527.762,"end":2556.377,"text":"好 謝謝主席安排這一次的修法那我想其實社會上的社會大眾都非常關心那麼因為這個確實是一個現代大家所面臨同樣的問題那本席其實在這裡針對這個法令也曾經多次的提出質詢那包括過去在上一屆的時候我們也開過了相關的公聽會跟記者會沒錯這個議題全國都關注所以說我們更需要好好的把腳步放穩"},{"start":2557.398,"end":2560.3,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":2577.691,"end":2588.864,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚事由．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚事由．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚事由．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹚事由"},{"start":2595.25,"end":2613.376,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修"},{"start":2624.482,"end":2639.633,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 但在代孕之前我們能不能先讓爭議較少的所謂單身女性或者是女性同性婚姻者他們能夠來進行自體的人工生殖"},{"start":2640.453,"end":2663.43,"text":"我想在這個過程當中其實社會上從這幾天的意見我們看到所感受到的就是女性自體人工生殖的這個部分的法規的修正爭議是比較少的甚至於是沒有爭議甚至於是在上一屆我擔任立法委員的時候就已經有非常多的呼籲"},{"start":2664.531,"end":2687.265,"text":"那麼來到這一屆這是朝野高度共識的部分我們是不是可以讓他先走我知道我的助理非常認真的幫我準備了這張A4這張A4也代表著年輕世代的孩子們他們希望在解決問題當中他們所陳述的所以我必須要念一下我相信後面我們衛藩的委員們他們會有更精闢的見解但是"},{"start":2691.872,"end":2704.317,"text":"我希望身為一個女性身為一個女性的立法委員我們來解決問題的時候是一步一步的向前而不要因為一次到位我再強調一次一次到位所產生的"},{"start":2706.021,"end":2722.751,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等"},{"start":2732.196,"end":2758.642,"text":"擬具因生育困難而因而必須可以使用人工生殖技術卻排除了同性配偶導致同性伴侶在生育權益上的不公平形成了法律上的不公平所以本席提出來的修正案主要就是在同性配偶納入人工生殖法的適用範圍讓同性配偶與異性配偶一樣合法的使用人工生殖技術現行的生育跟家庭的夢想"},{"start":2759.902,"end":2783.973,"text":"則不僅是憲法第7條保障的平等權,更是司法院釋字第748號解釋精神具體的一個落實。那麼我們當然也希望這次的修法後,女性同性配偶能夠透過專業的醫療技術完成生育計畫。然而由於生理跟技術上的差異,那麼現階段尚無法涵蓋男性"},{"start":2785.216,"end":2785.917,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":2805.282,"end":2808.743,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2839.418,"end":2844.414,"text":"三、委員台灣民眾黨說明請陳昭志委員代表說明。"},{"start":2851.448,"end":2872.499,"text":"本席請代表民眾黨黨團對於人工生殖法修正草案提供說明。我同時也代表年輕時候的我。我是一個先天性子宮發育不全的病人,因我名字叫MRKH syndrome。我要代表眾多的病友以及對於代孕有需求的人來發聲。"},{"start":2874.72,"end":2893.128,"text":"我的手邊名單有上過上千位的名單包括需求者跟願意幫助別人的人1985年台灣誕生了第一個事管嬰兒讓無法自然生育但渴望有孩子的父母親看到了生命奇蹟的可能性"},{"start":2894.728,"end":2922.333,"text":"2019年台灣通過同婚法案成為亞洲第一個將愛跟平等付諸實現的國家。時到今日婚姻跟生育這個定義早已經脫離傳統的框架而且是一場關乎愛選擇跟權利的旅程在這場旅程當中有人選擇收養有人則需要代孕這些選擇沒有高下之分"},{"start":2923.971,"end":2937.865,"text":"都是每個人不同的人生答案。這一句話是出現在2004年陳建仁署長為代孕舉行台灣第一次公民會議當中結論的一句。國家的責任不是替人民做選擇,"},{"start":2939.206,"end":2959.23,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社"},{"start":2965.612,"end":2983.007,"text":"而是希望那些因為病痛、性別或其他困難無法自然生育的人能夠擁有一條合法安全的路在愛與責任的前提下我們推動利他代孕的適度設計讓所有願意幫助他人成全圓夢的女性"},{"start":2983.667,"end":2987.129,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":3006.553,"end":3033.815,"text":"那些需要透過代孕來求子的伴侶承受了多少人的誤解跟冷漠但是他們仍然堅守對未來的希望他們的渴望值得被看到他們的聲音應該要被聽到有些人擔心代孕會引起犯罪甚至說出代孕通過後會有黑道把女性抓到診間讓她成為代理孕母趁機賺取暴利"},{"start":3035.145,"end":3053.014,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":3054.778,"end":3063.343,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：事由：審查一、委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院"},{"start":3083.516,"end":3098.488,"text":"有1位台灣人在美國代孕的孩子因為疫情等其他因素無法順利回台經歷重重的困難之後才終於一家團聚這樣的遺憾應該被制度改變不是再三通演"},{"start":3099.807,"end":3128.462,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案。」案。adequates the rights of single people and fellow citizens, which I also value very much.在我和民眾黨提出的人工生殖草案當中也藉由完整的規範。在我和民眾黨提出的人工生殖草案當中也藉由完整的規範。有人批評我是用單身、國人跟同志的人工生殖來綁架代孕。有人批評我是用單身、國人跟同志的人工生殖來綁架代孕。這是非常荒謬無忌的言論,因為一樣都是要透過人工生殖技術來達成。所以當然要併入人工生殖法案來一併處理。最後我想說的是,"},{"start":3130.121,"end":3142.649,"text":"將心比心,成全別人,追求幸福。這是人生的最高境界。將心比心,成全別人,追求幸福。這是人生的最高境界。謝謝主席。"},{"start":3163.318,"end":3183.5,"text":"謝謝主席。我的提案版本是支持將代理孕母制度與女童自配有單身女性生育權脫鉤處理。這也是今天衛福部提送委員會書面報導中的修法態度。那優先處理有共識爭議小的部分,並且讓上有許多疑慮,"},{"start":3184.181,"end":3192.867,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查一、委員陳菁徽等19"},{"start":3206.576,"end":3222.403,"text":"擬具〈生命安全以及身心健康、高強度、高風險的勞動過程〉,面對台灣如今的勞動環境,我們真的有足夠的自信說我們有能力保障代理孕母從懷孕到生產的各項權益嗎?"},{"start":3224.759,"end":3249.373,"text":"國民黨揚言如果要脫鉤處理代理孕母制度就不讓人工生殖法順利修正三讀我覺得我們如果真的重視女性權利我們就不該綁架單身女性跟女同志配偶的生育權讓我們坐下來好好討論法案不要把人民的權益當政治的攻防工具以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":3255.28,"end":3257.542,"text":"接續請林業琴委員說明我國憲法第7條就已經接觸我國人民無分男女、宗教、種族、階級、黨派在法律上是一律平等的"},{"start":3275.669,"end":3297.977,"text":"在臺灣的確有世界上首屈一指的人工生殖技術但卻限定只給已婚夫婦作為不孕症的治療使用可是在不傷害第三人健康的前提下竟然不能給單身夫婦未婚的女性女同性配偶使用實在是有違我們的憲法接觸的平等原則並在國內"},{"start":3299.679,"end":3317.055,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人�"},{"start":3318.416,"end":3322.319,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案〉"},{"start":3347.265,"end":3365.8,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案 》案。adequately,女性首次動卵的年齡逐年降低,人數逐年增加,但是整體的動卵率只有8.4%,這顯示制度不合一的限制未婚女性跟女童性配偶透過人工技術的"},{"start":3366.921,"end":3376.007,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。adequate to the law."},{"start":3376.007,"end":3383.072,"text":"我的版本事實上是同意單身女性還有同性配偶使用人工生殖技術。"},{"start":3386.022,"end":3414.277,"text":"但單身女性,同性配偶都是透過人工生殖技術用自己的身體、子宮去孕育下一代,無關乎其他女性的身體,無關乎其他女性的權益。而且生出來的孩子呢,自然要自己撫養。這個法律關係,單純我們相對的事上是放心。不過代理孕母用的是其他女性的子宮,把懷孕生產的風險交給其他女性去承擔,把健康的孩子可能會當作交易的商品,"},{"start":3414.599,"end":3414.999,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":3426.69,"end":3449.32,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案〉而全公約第三條也有規定,所有的關係關係到兒童的事務的時候,無論公私部門均應該優先考量兒童的最佳利益。並第七條也明示,兒童具有其身世之知情權,所以本席同步提出本法的人工生殖法的子女跟人工生殖細胞捐贈者親子關係要脫離,並"},{"start":3452.995,"end":3468.065,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委"},{"start":3478.908,"end":3482.25,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。netesa"},{"start":3500.014,"end":3513.368,"text":"所以本席主張擴大適用對象納入女同性配偶、未婚女性保障人工生殖、女子女的知情權。可是人工生殖跟代理運募應該要脫鉤。請各個委員來支持。謝謝。謝謝林宜瑾委員吳佩奕委員不在齁林淑芬委員"},{"start":3532.984,"end":3560.829,"text":"主席各位大家早我先說明一下我的版本的這個提案說明就是說本法制定至今台灣的關係有很多台灣的婚姻關係多有變遷然後通過這個司法院施治第748號的解釋施行法同性婚姻合法化也增加了配偶關係的多元樣貌而為了使現行的人工生殖技術得一體適用於同性婚姻與單身女性不再受限於異性戀不孕夫妻"},{"start":3561.309,"end":3562.37,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3577.737,"end":3581.602,"text":"再加上很多的地方政府的補助越來越多的女性動亂然而動亂機構並沒有相關的法律規範所以在這個裡面涉及到取卵等醫療行為的風險同時也涉及到保存的費用"},{"start":3593.775,"end":3594.696,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":3608.752,"end":3615.093,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案 條文修正草案案"},{"start":3635.678,"end":3654.359,"text":"擬具:「對於得進行生殖細胞冷凍儲存的年齡要件、銷毀生殖細胞的事由等也要予以明定、以知明確。」這個是我們在這個大家都覺得生殖技術上要對業者有多一點的規範。但我們今天我今天還要再講說"},{"start":3655.82,"end":3669.742,"text":"擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」擬具:「我的版本是沒有代理孕母的。」"},{"start":3685.305,"end":3686.847,"text":"擬具20人擬具20人擬具20人擬具20人擬具"},{"start":3703.749,"end":3705.091,"text":"只有20個人怎麼20個人討論出來的結論可以代表民意呢這個是當時他這麼說當時他為什麼這麼說因為因為會議還沒有開出還沒開然後他就先這樣講"},{"start":3718.726,"end":3722.211,"text":"媒體報導就是這樣講公民審議會議參加的人的確是20個而已而且是20年前而且這兩場相隔8年而且距離現在都一二十年"},{"start":3734.628,"end":3737.75,"text":"兩場會議20個人20年前已經沒有辦法反映現在的民意以少數民眾參與的形式進行討論絕對不能詮釋成多數人的共識而且當年這個議題的相關資訊已經很欠缺了我講的這些話我再把陳昭智委員就報導裡面講的再講一次他說"},{"start":3763.223,"end":3765.826,"text":"新聞報導陳昭志認為公民共識會議的20人根本不具公民代表性他指出藥品臨床試驗如果只有找20個人來做實驗一定不能代表母體實驗結果只能以個案認定自然科學都有這一類限制了"},{"start":3785.504,"end":3792.153,"text":"擬具〈社會科學的範圍更廣泛〉二十個人怎麼能夠代表台灣的公民的意見呢?這個都是媒體的報導。曾昭之委員繼續說:「就台灣2300萬的人口來講,二十人實在太少了。要說這些人的意見是公民共識,"},{"start":3803.447,"end":3816.864,"text":"科學基礎上站不住腳不足以說服大眾衛生署如果以20人的討論結果為政策依據將來出爐的草案怎麼在立法院說服看法不同的立委呢?言猶在耳"},{"start":3818.846,"end":3829.333,"text":"這一位陳委員現在提到了代理孕母言必稱2004、2012只有20個人參加的公民審議會議的結論是有社會共識的把公民審議會當20年前的公民審議會民調結果為推動立法的規念但在20年前你就不是這樣說的所以你要拿20個人參與的公民審議會拿出來當你推動"},{"start":3847.424,"end":3855.428,"text":"由上而下硬要塞給這個社會代理孕母的理由和藉口是站不住腳的。"},{"start":3858.393,"end":3881.616,"text":"我最後講歐洲23個國家大家講生理自主權、性別平等權站在世界最前面的歐洲有23個國家明文禁止代孕歐洲人難道沒有需求嗎?歐洲難道沒有人需求嗎?但是歐洲為什麼要明文禁止代孕?因為我們知道"},{"start":3883.218,"end":3900.037,"text":"這個子宮出租出借不是只有單純個人的事,窄化成個人的事,它是徹徹底底健康風險的轉嫁。而且現在你們假借的好,我們一起反對商業化的出租子宮,那麼我們要求利他代孕。"},{"start":3900.658,"end":3912.606,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．司法及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":3931.238,"end":3952.227,"text":"不要在這裡說收養的孩子不是你的夢想只有自己生的才是夢想對收養的孩子情何以堪每一個被收養的孩子他真的都是寶貝我們沈博洋委員就在示範一個最好的示範他把這一個孩子視為寶貝而且就是他們夫妻的夢想他們對待他他不會說他不會這樣講"},{"start":3958.63,"end":3978.252,"text":"所以不要想到自己的夢想而已。你有沒有做過兒童最佳權利的評估?兒童權利影響評估有沒有做過?沒有。這個制度實行下去以後對兒童的權利的影響評估你們沒有做對兒童的權利的影響是什麼?不知道。你只想到自己的夢想。"},{"start":3979.113,"end":3982.816,"text":"而做下去以後你們做性別平等的影響評估沒有!性平影響評估也沒有做!所以在這裡就是說我們由上而下由立委推動個人的意志然後就硬要摘給社會這個制度我們是想說希望可以脫鉤啦這是不同的概念不同的範球"},{"start":4001.829,"end":4019.476,"text":"兩個法規範的東西不一樣而代理育母試射到了社會的層次相當的廣、文化層次相當的廣生殖層次、健康風險也相當的廣不應該直接就跟這個人工生殖法綁在一起這不是一條法條、兩條法條、三條法條這麼簡單就可以約束和規範的"},{"start":4024.918,"end":4047.392,"text":"所以今天在這裡奉勸我們召委和其他的委員我們一定要讓他脫鉤不可以不可以憑你們幾個人個人的意志個人的想要然後就在這裡塞給全台灣這樣的一種什麼評估都沒有什麼權力影響都沒有做的一個代理運募就直接綁在一起通過謝謝謝謝林淑蓉委員"},{"start":4052.568,"end":4056.831,"text":"Reporter 郭玉琴等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案 長雅琳等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案 長雅琳等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 長雅琳等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 長雅琳等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 長雅琳等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 長雅琳等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 長雅琳等19人擬具:「人工"},{"start":4082.096,"end":4099.33,"text":"而從全體公約裡面明定了四大原則其中一個原則就是兒少最佳利益我聽了非常多的討論但是我們在兒少的影響性評估到底這件事情會不會對於孩子的影響是什麼現在是完全不清楚的"},{"start":4100.697,"end":4123.764,"text":"我覺得大人可以有自己想要生兒育女的夢想但是我們也同時必須在乎這個孩子出生之後他所受到的權利跟保障有沒有受影響例如我覺得最直接的一個利益就是說如果這個孩子有先天性疾患呢他會不會一出生之後就變成人球呢"},{"start":4125.695,"end":4143.909,"text":"此事我們在這個過程中並沒有聽到詳盡的討論如何去保障這個孩子出生之後即便是他是先天性疾病他還是可以去完整的有一個得到相對的保障然後呢我們現在討論的大部分都是在委託人、捐贈人、孕母本人、醫院及健康風險"},{"start":4145.35,"end":4170.035,"text":"我真的希望說當我們再把這件事情詳盡的討論之後確切的可以讓我們孩子有最佳的保障包含他的血源知識權他可以清楚的去追溯自己的血源這件事情都必須清楚的討論之後我覺得我們才有辦法去讓這個代理孕母有一個更完整的保障我們孩子的權利的一個方向我覺得這個現在呢在現行的階段一切都不明朗的時候"},{"start":4170.495,"end":4189.442,"text":"擬具:「我自己的版本是先開放了單身女性和女同志家庭,因為自己的子宮自己的決定是依據一個身體自主權的概念。在我的提案第一條,我將不孕的夫妻跟正為不孕的配偶,這也是回應到我們現在的家庭樣態是非常多元的。再來就是說我們現在在這個"},{"start":4191.536,"end":4213.753,"text":"在這個考慮到法律的一致性的時候呢衛福部現在是依據這個依司法院四字第七四八號解釋施行法第四條規定完成結婚登記之雙方那我的意思就是說考慮到原法一致性和適用性我也是表達尊重啦那後面其實我還增加了第二條將其定義為只接受人工生殖以"},{"start":4214.674,"end":4228.482,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":4244.411,"end":4265.883,"text":"等到未來我們有更多更了解更完整的評估的時候我們再來進行修法那也希望說大家可以一起來支持我的版本那最後我還是想要再來強調就是說雖然大家一直不停的在講少子話說我們需要生小孩但這句話在我的耳裡聽起來我覺得是一直不停的把兒童變成一個商品一個工具"},{"start":4267.203,"end":4277.888,"text":"認為這是缺乏了兒童主體性的發言。我也希望未來我們不要再有這樣子的發言。我們可以尊重兒童作為權力的主體,而不是只是為了生兒育女的夢想。謝謝。"},{"start":4293.888,"end":4299.094,"text":"那我們現在請衛務部邱部長來說明。那我們補充介紹我們食藥署莊署長。好,6分鐘。"},{"start":4308.948,"end":4335.02,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天大宴第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議、審查委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案。」案。委員陳菁徽等20人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案。」案。委員黃捷等22人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":4335.523,"end":4336.464,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案。」案。゚ ゚"},{"start":4359.923,"end":4380.005,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案,台灣民眾黨黨團擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案,委員林烈群等17人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案,國民黨黨團擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案,委員紅色蘭範園等21人擬具〈人工生殖法"},{"start":4380.265,"end":4403.302,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉 案、委員吳佩奕等18人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉 案、委員林時芬等18人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉 案、委員郭瑞琴等16人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉 案、委員張雅琳等21人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉 案、以下簡稱草案等16案。"},{"start":4404.002,"end":4419.617,"text":"本部呈要列席報告深感榮幸並就各委員所提修正草案僅提出參考意見,敬請各位委員不吝會議指教。首先說明,衛生福利部對於修正人工生殖法向來秉持廣大各方意見,"},{"start":4420.222,"end":4438.713,"text":"以持續溝通的態度,然考量社會各界對於今年5月初公告之《人工生殖法修正草案徵刑意見》期間所提出諸多建議,以及該法涉及國情倫理、婦女及兒童權益保障等諸多面向本部積極邀請。"},{"start":4440.094,"end":4465.883,"text":"各領域專家審訊嚴厲人工生殖法修正草案並尋法制作業程序並將提出行政案版之人工生殖法修正草案。大宴都會委員擬具人工生殖法部分條文修正草案本部意見綜合說明如下。建請各位委員考量。一、有關委員謝衣鳯等17人委員陳菁徽等20人委員王育敏等18人"},{"start":4467.383,"end":4495.586,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團及國民黨黨團擬具:「人工生殖法部分修正條文草案第五案。」除第二條未訂定代孕子女之定義恐生代孕子女親子關係相關法律解釋之餘例以外,草案第18條之二得對代孕者提供酬金恐有讓代孕傷害化、剝削弱勢婦女及買賣代孕子女之餘例,建請審酬。二、"},{"start":4496.383,"end":4518.292,"text":"考量子女最佳利益為民法親子篇中的與親子關係上最重要的原理及原則,甚至屬於憲法所保障的基本權利,並為國際兒童權利公益之重要保障項目,亦即應保障子女在穩固之環境上有良好發展身心之可能。"},{"start":4519.252,"end":4546.961,"text":"故授勢對象應先經評估,確認其符合職理最佳利益,才能實施人工生殖,為查各委員版本草案第11條或第11條之一人工生殖授勢對象之資格要件規定,並未有前述職理最佳利益之規範,建請考量。三、部份委員版本草案第23條人工生殖職理之法例地位規定將修正為配偶以節,"},{"start":4548.277,"end":4569.983,"text":"因民法之婚姻關係,系子夫妻之關係,配偶之夫或妻,而同慶當事人依司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條規定,成立具有親密性及排他性之永久結合關係之雙方,以現行民法之所指婚姻關係或配合不同,故"},{"start":4571.502,"end":4589.75,"text":"部分草案內容恐未能涵蓋完成結婚登記之女同性伴侶。建議考量本部針對修法開放人工生殖法之適用對象包括單身女性同性配偶代孕生殖之研擬過程已召開兩場次公聽會與31次"},{"start":4593.912,"end":4618.108,"text":"擬具:「專家會議以及對外預告草案廣徵各界意見,為預告期間所收集600余則意見,約有八成反對代孕,近期民間團體及民眾持續表達反對代孕,而代孕生子涉及代孕子女、代孕孕母及委託代孕者三方之權利保障與衝突以及檢視國際禁止代孕之理由,細因難以"},{"start":4619.249,"end":4634.513,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人�"},{"start":4643.82,"end":4650.977,"text":"等部陳大院各委員之指教及監督,在此靜置謝誠並期各位委員繼續予以支持。以上。"},{"start":4657.27,"end":4681.243,"text":"今天這個題目應該是好事啦應該是大家都很圓滿體貼跟愛護為我們下一代這有什麼好爭吵的啊奇怪欸女人跟女人的戰爭奇怪我們男孩子有點點啦人家在打仗我們下去插一腳齁"},{"start":4685.17,"end":4692.098,"text":"本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報,現在開始巡打,做以下宣告。"},{"start":4704.52,"end":4726.814,"text":"本會委員審查時間因為有兩個會聯席的失望法制七分鐘列席委員四分鐘十點半截止法院登記委員如果有失明諮詢請於上會前提出預決不受理暫定十點半左右休息十分鐘依往例審查法案不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":4735.412,"end":4736.663,"text":"謝謝主席。有請邱部長。"},{"start":4738.299,"end":4746.903,"text":"首先我要講的就是要批評指責別人先讀書先讀書以後再去批評指責別人什麼叫做公民會議這個是國家舉辦的公民會議公民會議是經過幾百人幾千人報名最後隨機取樣20位他們經過三天兩夜的課程做任何他們疑問的一個解答然後最後他們自己做討論做辯論提出建議案給國家做執政的參考"},{"start":4767.071,"end":4779.881,"text":"在2012年也同樣做過一次結論是一樣這是公民會議大家只提公民會議為什麼不談三次的國家公民會議吳宗津署長在現場他可以證明我現在手上就帶的就是民國99年、102年、103年的台灣的"},{"start":4783.624,"end":4797.213,"text":"擬具:「國家級的對於代孕的正式民調超過3000人有一定的方法跟嚴謹度。」擬具:「國家級的對於代孕的正式民調超過3000人有一定的方法跟嚴謹度。」擬具:「國家級的對於代孕的正式民調超過3000人有一定的方法跟嚴謹度。」擬具:「國家級的對於代孕的正式民調超過3000人有一定的方法跟嚴謹度。」擬具:「國家級的對於代孕的正式民調超過3000人有一定的方法跟嚴謹度。」擬具:「國家級的對於代孕的正式民調超過3000人有一定的方法跟嚴謹度。」擬具:「國家級的對於代孕的正式民調超過3000人有一定的方法"},{"start":4810.658,"end":4838.692,"text":"賴清德立委提出了《人工生殖法案》內容包括代孕連屬人包括蕭美琴副總統2020年吳秉瑞立委再次提出包含代孕的人工生殖法案連屬人都是現任的立委或是現任的官員如今民進黨主張切割代孕違背兩次國家公民會三次國家民調三次的國家民調治罹患適應症還是為反而反呢?"},{"start":4840.063,"end":4853.934,"text":"很多綠營車役批評我陳昭芝變了,罵我背棄理想,但歷史斑斑呢?到底濁世驚飛的是誰?非常清楚是哪一個政黨在濁世驚飛?"},{"start":4855.25,"end":4872.407,"text":"啊?部長,你八個月的時候,你八月的時候還接受媒體專訪承諾,代理一母要加速解禁,而且這是重中之重,無法和人工生殖法切割。但是民進黨上禮拜一,這個禮拜一上午不過開了一二十分鐘的這個記者會。"},{"start":4874.594,"end":4898.522,"text":"下午衛福部立刻大轉彎馬上遵照民進黨衛環組的指示把代孕從人工生殖法脫鉤每個媒體問我的時候都說為什麼急轉彎為什麼急轉彎部長你要不要道歉你要不要對應解禁因應其判的不孕者及男男同志道歉部長你是得到關癌嗎你是衛福部部長還是民進黨的硬生蟲"},{"start":4904.468,"end":4927.603,"text":"你這樣失信於民。部長你回答。你講了話啊。你本來要講的,你現在變成這樣。好,保護委員。我想我們衛務部一向秉持著保護人民健康。我講你講你的話就好了。好。那我個人,大家也知道我是一個從事幾年來的醫藉老兵。我絕對站在,而且我這是照顧弱人。不然你就支持啊。你現在反過來了。你先道歉啊。"},{"start":4931.394,"end":4945.797,"text":"不是,因為在一件事情的討論是由他一直討論嘛,如果是這件事情是...部長!部長!國健衛生署十幾年的版本都有代孕,一直到姓評委才去擋住!你不會比我更聰明啦!署長,吳署長站旁邊啦,他也不敢說我講的錯啦!我們一直努力在說起各方面的...這樣啦,你不要回答,我再問你下一句話,請問你對衛福部的同仁有沒有信心?"},{"start":4961.516,"end":4990.419,"text":"你對衛福部的同仁有沒有信心?我想衛福部的同仁都是...有沒有信心?你對你屬下的同仁有沒有信心?當然對他們的工作精神專業...好!你有信心喔!信心喔!好!為什麼我要問你有沒有信心?你擔任立委時也關心代孕法案甚至執行國健署署長代孕應該要儘速推行不要讓急於想當父母的人辛苦的東奔西跑甚至跑到柬埔寨"},{"start":4991.48,"end":5009.557,"text":"而且你在2017年5月13號臉書貼文說:「不運帶給不少婦女同胞許多壓力,讓我們非常的不捨。許多婦產科傳體亦贊同代理一母機制,在合乎倫理的原則下完善地規劃法規制度,以人文光牌帶給國人新生機。"},{"start":5010.698,"end":5036.352,"text":"部長,外部部經的預告草案難道不合倫理嗎?之前的草案難道不合倫理嗎?國建署同仁這20幾年來對代孕制度做了多少研究?開了多少會議?做了多少調查?做了多少會診?你知道他們要加班花多少時間嗎?他們做出來的結果,結果是有一套非常嚴謹跟完整的條文。民進黨一個不到20分鐘的記者會,"},{"start":5037.953,"end":5057.149,"text":"就把這20年來一群公務員累積的薪水全部推翻。你在踐踏我國文官的專業,浪費國家資產。部長,那就是政治霸凌專業。台灣人民看在眼裡,港大待遇人都看在眼裡。你在霸凌國建署。"},{"start":5061.428,"end":5075.326,"text":"五、委員吳國浩等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹑事由﹎立法院"},{"start":5077.348,"end":5103.843,"text":"在國人在有國家的法律保障的情況下去進行代孕現在卻有執政黨的立委跳出來說代孕的需求不會消失本來就是啊你保證你女兒不會沒有子宮嗎?不會生病嗎?人類賭博的需求也不會消失哇這種水準的立委人類各種成癮的樣貌也不會消失那這不代表我們要建立制度來應對"},{"start":5105.441,"end":5108.182,"text":"我先回答前面的啦,我想我們的核心價值都一樣,一定是要解決全國人民各種"},{"start":5133.712,"end":5138.335,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":5149.002,"end":5159.589,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具"},{"start":5164.472,"end":5176.537,"text":"請回座。我在這裡要對所有期判代孕解禁的朋友說,尤其是不孕婦女跟男男同志喊話。民進黨說要代孕立專法脫鉤啦,這個說法不是第一次啦,那都騙人了啦,以脫代騙啦。"},{"start":5181.431,"end":5193.566,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第13次聯席會議．立法院第14次"},{"start":5195.621,"end":5222.138,"text":"請部長看看在右邊這些我有很多的資料那只看這張請問有網友問民進黨的沈博洋立委代孕在歐美行之有年請問委員想法是完全禁止還是有條件放行沈博洋的回答說完全反對意思就是說不管你法案這怎麼嚴謹剛剛很多人講一大堆我們好好完善討論怎麼嚴謹怎麼完善怎麼批評他就是反對到底"},{"start":5225.07,"end":5232.017,"text":"請問部長,你什麼時候提出專法?當你要擲轉彎的時候,你端法是不是同步提出來?你們沒有提出專法的時候,就是空口說白話!"},{"start":5239.619,"end":5255.05,"text":"拜訪委員,我想這個都是一個法條的修正,都是一個過程。我們先把有共識的先處理。你是要發生什麼事,我也並不處理你是誰羈押你,誰壓迫你做這個政治決定。反正對於主張不脫鉤的這個立委,我們會好好負責任來審這些法案。"},{"start":5256.771,"end":5283.518,"text":"反對代孕人最常拿小孩做藉口,小孩權益當理由。如果這些人這麼在意小孩的權益,那就應該支持代孕解禁啊。為什麼?剛剛我舉例啦,四年前林昶佐立委啊,就接到個陳情啊,因為台灣人在國外生小孩啊,因為有很多困難沒有辦法帶回來啊。這就是為什麼,因為台灣沒有辦法用法律、用安全來保障這個孩子嘛。你讓國人在國外受苦,他面對那麼多法律跟安全的不確定。"},{"start":5285.427,"end":5289.553,"text":"五、委員我想我們有其餘的部分我們一定會盡全力來促進社會的共識。就讓他在台灣出生,台灣來保護他。"},{"start":5298.359,"end":5314.165,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社"},{"start":5326.489,"end":5341.024,"text":"然後醫師心理師說OK沒問題的時候又把他別人受精卵強迫把他植入他肚子裡嗎?否定是這樣嗎?然後強迫他懷孕時該把他生下來嗎?是這樣嗎?台灣有這樣的女性嗎?你的意思是說踐踏看不起所有的醫師心理諮商師嗎?而且剛剛談的都是犯罪行為欸。"},{"start":5350.726,"end":5374.321,"text":"難道代孕通過台灣就變成法外之地了嗎?就開始一堆人犯罪了嗎?是這樣嗎?會有一個女人會逼到診間去然後去執行代孕嗎?然後懷孕10個月嗎?會有這種人嗎?有基本判斷的東西都知道啦根本就是天方夜團把女人當笨蛋喔!難道全台灣只有民進黨女人有自主權嗎?其他的女性都沒有自主權嗎?他想要幫助別人不可以嗎?"},{"start":5377.262,"end":5397.22,"text":"這麼多領袖我手上有名單我手上有最多的名單副常科醫師也有最多的需求者我手上有最多的名單願意幫助願意成為代孕者這不就是他的自主權嗎我願意成為代孕者我願意幫助別人這就是他的自主權啊自主權啊部長右邊這個莉莉小姨就是台灣人"},{"start":5398.505,"end":5416.661,"text":"現在美國生活他自己有兩個小孩過去順利懷孕他在丈夫和孩子支持下去幫助一對不孕夫妻代孕他說這是一個非常有成就感很開心的事情因為可以幫助別人不然誰有成就感你們也說他剝削別人嗎他說他有成就感你硬要說他剝削別人嗎"},{"start":5421.994,"end":5432.226,"text":"我等陳菁徽委員上來的時候他告訴你更多的科學證據所有大嶼媽媽你台灣擋了這麼久人家大嶼媽媽都已經有很多已經有幾百位幾千位的研究還有記得"},{"start":5433.899,"end":5460.776,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":5462.455,"end":5467.92,"text":"人家已經前進到這個程度了,你還在討論開不開放,欸不要你的錢欸,自費欸!其他人不要罵我,今天就是我是在場唯一的病人,但是我不為自己,我早早就收養小孩,我收養小孩已經30歲了,為什麼我還在做一樣事?尊重每一個人的選擇,有人可以不要小孩,有人要收養小孩,有人要透過人工生殖技術,"},{"start":5488.507,"end":5492.37,"text":"拜託大家對我稍微言語不要太刻薄,我畢竟是病人。謝謝部長,請下台。謝謝主席。"},{"start":5515.441,"end":5518.944,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請陳清威委員發言主席、委員我也想請部長辛苦了委員早好下一張"},{"start":5542.473,"end":5563.753,"text":"今天有榮幸我有這個機會可以擔任這個職務我也非常希望可以認真負責的其實就秉持著專業還有臨床上的需求可以跟所有的委員一起和諧的討論覺得最近的新聞可能已經被操作的有點太過頭了人工生殖法不是只有代孕或是非代孕而已"},{"start":5564.434,"end":5565.815,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":5579.488,"end":5595.324,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生"},{"start":5597.606,"end":5599.467,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5627.466,"end":5632.771,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其他條文修正草案 案件及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其"},{"start":5645.256,"end":5656.52,"text":"我知道衛福部許多的同仁在這方面付出了很多心力因為我常常是那一位需要去接待講英文的醫師或者是胚胎師還有生殖機構從外國來台灣給我們經驗的那個接待者"},{"start":5661.061,"end":5679.395,"text":"所以我知道衛福部有多用心從多久以前我們就已經請我們這邊的專業人員到美國或是英國或是加拿大或者是澳洲去考察人家是怎麼樣用法條去落實去保障所有的人的權益這些都是我在在經歷過的"},{"start":5680.876,"end":5693.224,"text":"今天我當然就像我一開始提案說明講的我最擔心最擔心的事情是這一群人他是等得遙遙無期我也希望在我們這一屆給人家一個答案不管這個答案是什麼沒有討論不是民主至少是我們在這個委員會的殿堂我們每個人都代表很多民意嘛一定也會有反對的人一定會有贊成的人一定會知道有需求的人當我們討論出來有一個結論我們讓這些人"},{"start":5709.955,"end":5711.757,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":5725.453,"end":5727.474,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":5751.929,"end":5754.552,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":5769.466,"end":5797.54,"text":"當我有跟林宜瑾委員分享現在還有子宮移植的手術全世界已經成功130例那這個第一個做的這個教授他禮拜二才來我們立法院參觀他跟我們暢談講我們的修法過程也分享他們瑞典的修法過程也分享他們瑞典即將應該也會開始做這個代理孕母但是他子宮移植手術已經誕下10個健康的寶寶不管是成功率、活產率都到90%以上就是第一"},{"start":5798.541,"end":5816.666,"text":"到底有沒有要幫助這些人用什麼方法幫助其實他可以幫助的方法現在就是攤在這邊嘛我已經講了嘛第一你有沒有要幫助所有想要為台灣生育的人來做生育第一有沒有想第二如果沒有我希望可以盡快告訴人家"},{"start":5817.97,"end":5841.068,"text":"如果這一屆沒有我當然那天我是覺得很難過因為陳昭智委員去跟王振旭委員說我們一起為癌友奮戰這麼多年可是你為什麼不同情我的狀況那王振旭委員說沒有沒有我們會立一個轉法但是現場所有的委員又有誰知道自己的下一屆還在這個地方呢"},{"start":5841.408,"end":5843.751,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「"},{"start":5856.925,"end":5859.426,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":5872.833,"end":5890.892,"text":"或黃仁勛等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。他們都認為說幫助他們的員工所有的員工不分性傾向去成立家庭甚至補助代理母這個是讓他們留才或是達到人才永續很大很大的一個指標啊"},{"start":5891.753,"end":5913.816,"text":"所以這件事情我相信部長你可能不知道但是因為我們跟國建署相處非常非常久我知道國建署署長在這方面所花的心力真的很很多很多而且他們考察的機構讀的paper全世界的literature全部review他們是非常嚴謹的在做這樣子的決定的部長"},{"start":5916.36,"end":5933.092,"text":"你可以承諾說可不可以在您的任內可以至少做一個決定嗎?到底是專法?幾時之內推出專法?或者是就不要做了?台灣目前的民情還沒有辦法達到共識總之你總要給人家一個答案嘛"},{"start":5935.961,"end":5950.69,"text":"八、委員齁,那我想你提的都是心情,我們都站在一個醫者情懷,我們都了解。對阿,你也提到過阿。那當然在,可是在法令的一個設定裡面真的是要"},{"start":5951.61,"end":5957.053,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":5976.323,"end":6000.196,"text":"檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測檢測"},{"start":6002.491,"end":6029.252,"text":"同意所以當我們如果未來我們的確要先把有共識的地方通過的話我也希望我們可以用專業的不管我們是委員或者是我們是官員我們都可以很清楚的跟大家表明說也許有一部分的人是沒有辦法適用的這樣子好嗎?如果有社會共識我每天願意為所有的人民做應該做的事情那你多久可以有社會共識?"},{"start":6030.745,"end":6036.472,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案》案。"},{"start":6047.739,"end":6062.732,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":6071.079,"end":6073.542,"text":"有或是沒有他各自可能會帶來什麼後續的隱身的問題?署長你有想法嗎?"},{"start":6080.132,"end":6103.376,"text":"謝謝主席,也謝謝委員的關心。我想知悉權是兒童權益公約裡面的規範,也是應該要說保障的。但是在監證者,我們如果事先設計了他有同意讓未來能夠知悉的話,那後端在兒童到成年以後追溯,也可以在某一些情況下,那麼徵求當初監證者同意的情況下,我想我們為現在這個法案的設計裡面來講,就是有雙軌的這樣的方式。"},{"start":6107.992,"end":6112.478,"text":"所以您未來將來提出來的會是雙軌制目前的設計上是這樣對這個會跟美國有點類似是嗎"},{"start":6116.55,"end":6144.734,"text":"原則上就是尊重雙方,監證者必須要先同意,那後來尋求知悉的人也要爭取要同意以後才會讓他們這個相認、知道。再來,這次您的代理孕母草案雖然您已經切斷了,但是您在上面其實有嚴格的限制植入胚胎的科數。那我有看到其他委員的版本,在前半段也有講到說,當然你非常保護代理孕母,我覺得這個非常非常的好,"},{"start":6144.974,"end":6146.214,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6160.759,"end":6173.051,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委"},{"start":6182.65,"end":6203.522,"text":"謝謝孫委員的關心,其實我們這個部分已經在納入現在版本的草案裡面的一些規範當中,那過去沒有的話我們在人工生物補助的時候有一些限制。有,有,但是那個補助因為沒有到非常的嚴格嘛,所以其實已經下降了不少多包胎,但是沒有辦法全部啦。那最後"},{"start":6205.404,"end":6223.739,"text":"最後呢也有委員提出這個版本那當然我會希望說我們讓醫學回歸到醫學我看到有一些執政黨的委員他希望捐贈年齡可以下修到18歲可是其實我在這邊要救醫學還有我詢問過非常多醫學會他們的看法我們這個都是國建署你們自己的途徑"},{"start":6224.039,"end":6239.09,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":6248.503,"end":6271.562,"text":"我想這個未來如果有行政版本那版本目前我們超越的是以20歲為限那時候是在大家來做相關的討論所以您也認為其實不需要下修是嗎我覺得這個要關於這個專業的一些討論那我們之後我們在一起在主條的時候更專業的討論最後是一個許許多多醫師他會面臨到的問題因為現在呢"},{"start":6277.569,"end":6287.203,"text":"統計數據因為現在剛有講到說醫療性動亂或是社會性動亂越來越多但他並沒有登入到全部都登入到我們的系統這個您未來也會堅持是嗎?"},{"start":6290.516,"end":6313.087,"text":"這個計畫已經我們草擬了那準備抱怨因為未來對於臨床者要做醫學研究其實這方面也是非常重要的最後也希望在這個銷毀生殖細胞可以有更多更多的規範因為在臨床食物操作上你會發現說當你聯絡不到這個人的時候你怎麼樣就是聯絡不到不管是寄這個"},{"start":6314.828,"end":6335.816,"text":"有些政治機構聽說是寄存證信函或是打電話或是寄平信都聯絡不到這個人的時候這個時候你不知道是不是要銷毀因為有非常多的狀況也希望未來都可以跟署長做交流那之後希望您可以再把執法定得更詳細一點可以讓實際的操作者都可以有方法可以依循可以嗎這個沒問題沒問題好"},{"start":6340.305,"end":6343.146,"text":"那就這樣,謝謝部長、謝謝署長。好,謝謝陳卿衛、謝謝部長。來,繼續請林宜瑾委員發言。問大家報告,廖偉祥委員發言後,我們休息10分鐘。"},{"start":6378.489,"end":6379.39,"text":"指揮有請部長跟署長"},{"start":6389.368,"end":6411.988,"text":"市長,過去有人工生殖法主要事實上是為了患有不孕症或疾病的夫婦所以過去人工生殖就是我們民間所慣稱的私管嬰兒那臺灣的確有領先的技術可是也因為涉及到倫理安全保護這個技術一直限定在醫學的治療上使用並且"},{"start":6412.668,"end":6414.749,"text":"擬具第3人擬具第3人擬具第3人擬具"},{"start":6443.271,"end":6452.339,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":6472.495,"end":6489.2,"text":"持續表達像禮拜二就有人開記者會反對代孕所以請問另外兩個開放選項未婚女性跟女同性配偶各自贊成跟反對的比率有多少?部長這個是不是請署長幫忙回應一下這個目前在上一次的調查裡面並沒有把它個別來做調查為什麼沒有個別做調查?"},{"start":6499.644,"end":6523.714,"text":"因為那整體600多件裡面來講,80%都是反對,那其他的數目就不會太多。就是那個法案公告我們收回來的600多件的意見裡面,那麼反對的大概有80%多。我講的是,你講的是反對未婚女性跟女童性沒有嗎?"},{"start":6525.683,"end":6533.234,"text":"除了這個以外另外有一個其他人那其他的他就不會有這個所以我們這兩個數目就不會太多件數就不會太多"},{"start":6536.55,"end":6539.112,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":6557.202,"end":6571.387,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。נס"},{"start":6584.178,"end":6608.173,"text":"我們礙於法令規定我們的整體因為礙於法令規定不能使用所以整體的凍卵節凍率只有8.4%所以想問部長這邊台灣女性不想結婚但想生個孩子生產風險自己承擔沒有涉及到第三人不侵犯到第三人的權益的時候衛福部支持未婚女性開放使用人工生殖嗎想再度的跟你們再確認"},{"start":6613.439,"end":6632.834,"text":"透過版就有了。透過版就有了。透過版就有了。目前透過的版本就有了。我想現在新的透過的版本裡面就有這樣的保護。好,那一樣再跟你確認,一樣是自己的孩子自己生的問題,衛福部支持女同性配偶開放使用人工生殖嗎?"},{"start":6634.758,"end":6663.244,"text":"指出通過版就有這樣的條文所以本席認為成年女性自主決定自己承擔生育風險只要不傷害他人的權益的話健康沒有爭議可是因為不孕或不想懷孕而要找人代孕則很有爭議所以本席認為衛福部輕忽這件事情的社會衝擊所以衛福部5月16號預告的人工生殖法要開放正義的代理孕母"},{"start":6663.744,"end":6687.976,"text":"十二月二號吳昭君署長再一次信誓旦旦地表示沒有特別立場,這案子有能力管理嗎?所以想問一下署長你有能力管理嗎?我想我們從五月預告那也是大家一起決定,那個原理當中就是草案,草案就還沒有最終決定版本。"},{"start":6690.15,"end":6716.787,"text":"請問代理孕母是所生的孩子的生母但不是法律上的媽媽而委託代孕的人不是親生父母但是為法律擬製的爸媽這個孩子跟偷抱來的孩子在法律上的差別為何?我們在法規的設計上就是經過了相關的評估以後最後如果委託代理孕母那出來的小孩就是適同這個委託者的婚生子女"},{"start":6717.864,"end":6724.706,"text":"除了孩子之外,孕婦代替懷孕的法律行為是不是等同於租借子宮?這個我想就是剛剛提到的,到底是認定我們認為他就是被這個受託者的代理孕婦的一個主體。所以很多東西就是講不清楚嗎?所以為什麼我們會要代理孕婦來脫鉤處理?剛剛陳金輝委員"},{"start":6748.055,"end":6763.002,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法"},{"start":6777.605,"end":6781.487,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":6795.965,"end":6821.798,"text":"為服務有能力去處理這些因為生產不順利或有後遺症所牽扯到的不履行契約、契約標的瑕疵跟毀棄契約的糾紛嗎?先請署長回答。這個委託契約必須要經過法案的公證以後才能夠生效。當初你們版本有處理這些事情嗎?在我們的草案裡面的確是有寫。"},{"start":6823.087,"end":6844.341,"text":"數字寫得清楚嗎?夠保障到我現在列的這些問題都能夠解決嗎?我講這個都可以討論。那有可以討論,那你5月16號、12月2號還是再度的講說...那應該還沒有決定啊。那我不知道衛福部可不可以去說服偏鄉的老人家阿婆幫女兒生孫是科學技術不違背倫理嗎?署長。"},{"start":6849.884,"end":6855.826,"text":"我們這個在涉及法律的時候不會去做這個案的啊這個案的話這個是假設性的議題啊這時候必須要專列的評估以後才能決定啊"},{"start":6866.513,"end":6867.294,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6884.168,"end":6912.193,"text":"擬具:「法是一部管技術的法律,可是今天這個職工的背後是人誒,是人誒,所以不能好好處理過於複雜的法律關係的話,會不會更是沒有能力去管理技術背後所產生的社會爭議,既然沒有能力管理,你們憑什麼要開放代理義務,這個由第三人承擔風險的選項,這個就是我不太理解的地方,5月16號去公告,那結果呢,這麼多人反對,你們12月2號還是再度的這樣子,"},{"start":6913.513,"end":6935.041,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案所以今天本席為觀測保護的目的而提出的草案版本是保護的主體是人工生殖的子女跟瘦數人跟生殖細胞的捐贈人跟社會事實上是多數是有共識的可惜我們現在還沒有看到我們的衛福部的版本送進來所以我們很希望能夠儘速的送進來還是要再度的重申要脫鉤"},{"start":6943.177,"end":6957.045,"text":"所以我在這邊再度的提醒就是希望最後能夠擴大適用對象納入我們的女同性配偶未婚的女性還保障保障人工生殖子女的知情權還要人工生殖跟代理孕母要脫鉤"},{"start":6962.15,"end":6974.034,"text":"林宜瑾委員因為您剛有講到我所以我也跟您稍微說一下您剛很在意第三人懷孕這件事情但是在許多執政黨委員的版本裡面有一個A卵B懷"},{"start":6975.134,"end":6990.747,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院"},{"start":6995.211,"end":7000.074,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜〉案件事宜〉"},{"start":7007.213,"end":7023.6,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第13次聯席會議．立法院第14次"},{"start":7036.414,"end":7051.023,"text":"不是因為您剛有講我的名字對對我講原因我是講原因每一次每一個委員講完都可以這樣不是我在講原因那我覺得今天好那怎麼等於在代理主席的時候可以對於委員下來的時候去針對我只是問你說欸你剛剛有提案說啊"},{"start":7065.533,"end":7090.002,"text":"報告主席,所有的委員發言,我們要尊重所有的委員。沒有,我很尊重,尊重每一個委員的發言。就真的在玩雞阿,來往我執行阿,來,謝謝,部長部長還有署長。"},{"start":7094.456,"end":7100.599,"text":"我們請蘇慶璇委員我們一定是尊重所有委員的發言然後你同不同意大家看法還是你的事請部長 謝謝 請署長"},{"start":7106.335,"end":7108.598,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7125.618,"end":7141.053,"text":"那個時候也是非常擔心說會有商業啦會有金錢上的誘因啦什麼所以到最後就很嚴格就是五等七年內才可以所以五等七年以後就後來後來"},{"start":7143.103,"end":7166.609,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及生殖"},{"start":7169.209,"end":7188.289,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案�"},{"start":7191.656,"end":7196.279,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7208.165,"end":7224.974,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬"},{"start":7225.934,"end":7240.158,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文宜瑾等19人擬具:「"},{"start":7254.987,"end":7282.698,"text":"我們屏東縣每年 我小的時候我們屏東縣一年生一萬四千、一萬五千個小孩捏啊你覺得他現在生幾個?生三千幾個啦?四千個?尾數都不夠啊啊我屏東縣去年2023年過世了多少人你知道嗎?九千五百多個然後生出來想要整四千兩百個 連一半都不到啊這個下去就整四、六六啊"},{"start":7283.968,"end":7312.322,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。所以可以檢查當然說小孩子權利什麼什麼都有然後我們全部都尊重但是現在生13萬個小孩然後過世一年20萬以上一年缺口就7萬現在整個勞動部都在幹嘛都在那邊引進外籍的技術人員啊看護啊一直留 留到後來變成管家啦那什麼 普通人力嘛"},{"start":7313.703,"end":7316.995,"text":"然後非法的移工也睜一隻眼閉一隻眼嘛,因為什麼?都沒人啊。"},{"start":7320.524,"end":7342.282,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社"},{"start":7345.39,"end":7354.212,"text":"我覺得好像一群在維吾爾陳奧茲委員跟維吾爾陳秦威委員然後衛務部也加入維吾爾的行列有必要這樣嗎?連賴清德連蕭美琴副總統他們以前都同意他們以前都鼓勵到現在就只好總統副總統出來講講話吧有那麼嚴重嗎?"},{"start":7372.005,"end":7381.129,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文�"},{"start":7401.531,"end":7423.203,"text":"但是男男現在這一次的法有沒有講到男男要怎麼生下來?沒有。單身的女性他要生他有自主權,還有女女他要的話也是剛剛講的那種監軍的方式嘛對不對?不過現在監軍是一定要知道來源是誰有沒有健康要做檢查有沒有這樣規定?"},{"start":7425.632,"end":7451.349,"text":"公安報告現在的法規裡面漸漸是匿名的但是要漸漸一定要做事先的評估所以還是要對這個Donor做嚴格的身體檢查還有心理評估等等那他捐給誰知道嗎?不知道目前是不知道但是要執行這個手術的時候人工生殖機構必須要有一個查詢機制"},{"start":7452.312,"end":7466.984,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第3次聯席會議：立法院第4次聯席會議：立法院第5次聯席會議：立法院第6次聯席會議：立法院第7次聯席會議：立法院第8次聯席會議：立法院第9次聯席會議：立法院第10次聯席會議：立法院第11次聯席會議：立法院第12次聯席會議：立法院第13次聯席會議：立法院第14次聯席會議：立法院第15次"},{"start":7475.99,"end":7484.71,"text":"美國 我知道美國是美國說建金你的金從要拿去要離開1000公里以上有這個規定嗎?"},{"start":7487.642,"end":7514.443,"text":"我們那個建建以後查選是只能兼的一個所以第二個他就不會被同意了就會被人提出所以只能兼一個是現在嘛我以為一個人可以分五六個那還得了好所以我要幫他報告就是說子宮有問題的人很多然後跑到國外去我們知道一些站檯面上的很多人都跑到國外去"},{"start":7516.105,"end":7533.685,"text":"指名指名就不好意思啦齁那領養我對領養有很concern因為領養我去跟他跟他吹出來齁失敗率解除領養關係50幾%所以不要想說領養齁所以每一次"},{"start":7535.461,"end":7555.319,"text":"五、委員黃淑穎等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":7559.583,"end":7579.056,"text":"此者有一個,夫妻代替有一個人的DNA,精子、卵子不管,有一個,這樣他也覺得有踏實感,他也覺得是自己的孩子,所以這個是,我不管你怎麼做啦,好事啦,我都總贊成啦。要脫鉤,你要立專法,請問你是要立專法還是修改人工生殖法?普通,你再立一個專法很懶的耶。"},{"start":7587.034,"end":7602.699,"text":"現在的方向先脫鉤就是說先有共識的先處理嘛,讓那些單身女性、女性同性的這個部分有一個可以用人工生殖法來處理,這個比較爭議的"},{"start":7605.07,"end":7630.373,"text":"我們現在再來尋求社會共識,還可以尋求大家的共識嗎?當然我們在法案、倫理各方面的文獻其實都收集很多,再來就是社會的共識。社會的共識怎麼可以有共識,當然我們可以繼續來努力。我是覺得人工生殖法修就好,修法比較簡單,你要立一個專法很困難,尤其像這樣朝野現在的氛圍。"},{"start":7631.96,"end":7633.981,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":7655.063,"end":7656.784,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7685.219,"end":7691.222,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。廖偉祥委員質詢後休息10分鐘。謝謝主席。有請我們的部長。"},{"start":7712.771,"end":7721.699,"text":"請部長謝謝六人好部長你好我想要先請教"},{"start":7722.782,"end":7744.483,"text":"另一個議題,前天12月3號的時候是檳榔防治日那衛福部也預告宣布說年底前要預告這個檳榔危害防治法的草案那當然就你們衛福部的立場的態度就是要對於這個被列為國際癌症研究機構IARC證實的第一類致癌"},{"start":7745.544,"end":7763.815,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":7775.683,"end":7785.288,"text":"那個前面幾年當中當然也一直在溝通啦那監察院也一直有請衛福部去說明甚至到達比較"},{"start":7788.521,"end":7795.604,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7816.069,"end":7817.813,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":7823.052,"end":7846.959,"text":"那也可以也有一個事實從110年的癌症登記的報告顯示吃檳榔有高度相關的口腔癌大約有九成是有吃檳榔的習慣那也是臺灣十大癌症的第六名個案數每一年有八千多人次那其中超過九成是男性有七千四百人左右並且口腔癌的死亡率也非常高"},{"start":7847.739,"end":7854.426,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":7859.167,"end":7876.036,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":7884.46,"end":7897.246,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法"},{"start":7898.459,"end":7922.145,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝委員。我想我們先把我們要考慮到的那當然福福民情、減緩社會衝擊的部分分四個方面來進行規範。那這個預告以後也徵求大家的意見。除了這個以外,其實我們也一直在輔導農業種植者,也提出了...那這輔導很久啦,這是農業補主責的啊。這跟你有什麼關係?你是為了人民健康吧?"},{"start":7922.785,"end":7943.084,"text":"那就是我們要跟農業部一起同行吧,變成這件事情做得更周全啦。跟委員報告我...所以這個議題也是所謂的這個叫做什麼社會...我照顧很多口腔癌的病人。對,所以我想你應該很清楚。其實我是照顧末期,那真的是生活品質,可以說是所有癌症裡面。"},{"start":7944.005,"end":7957.28,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院陳菁徽等19人擬具:「"},{"start":7963.447,"end":7988.342,"text":"因為你們現在檳榔專法好像以學校跟兒校場所為重點管理對象那當然包含也參考現行的這個煙害防治法不應該販售給未成年檳榔喔可是部長我覺得這個不能販售給未成年及禁止進入校園這不是本來就應該做的嗎可是我也想要問說你只針對這個部分那你有看過幼兒園的小朋友吃檳榔嗎還是國小生吃檳榔"},{"start":7989.463,"end":8008.27,"text":"因為我覺得如果是真心有要達到健康台灣的政策不是應該是針對主要食用的人口去做管制嗎?或者是行為的改變嗎?那我覺得這部檳榔專法看起來就是不是為德不足,其實就是打假球看似好像有管制,實際上卻是無為而治那從數據上看起來"},{"start":8010.331,"end":8024.282,"text":"是哪些年齡層才會開始吃檳榔啊所以部長我想你也長期照顧喔國人健康不能等啊那對於管制這個檳榔的事情不能再駝鳥型態為什麼好像做半吊子根本沒有在管啊"},{"start":8025.083,"end":8048.233,"text":"好,謝謝委員的指教。我想委員的建議非常的重要。我們會,例如在這個草案的過程當中,來增加這樣的一個討論的一個主題。希望能夠更有效的來,真的來減少我們口腔癌罹患的危險。對,因為你冰浪也是吃到嘴巴的東西喔。所以目前法規上、法制上有的漏洞還不算,其實食品安全也要顧慮嘛。"},{"start":8049.053,"end":8051.395,"text":"二、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查��"},{"start":8071.017,"end":8081.051,"text":"對部長我跟你報告一下俗稱的倒吊子其實每200顆檳榔裡面就會出現少數反過來頭下尾上的這種倒著生的檳榔就是倒吊子啊"},{"start":8082.08,"end":8098.668,"text":"其中他們都會含一般的檳榔兩倍以上的這種檳榔鹼會讓他很興奮甚至有時候過度興奮會休克所以倒吊子也被稱成這個土產搖頭丸那歷年來也都有很多人吃了之後就不小心發生了生命的危害"},{"start":8099.648,"end":8126.222,"text":"所以我想要問一下部長那這樣子到底要怎麼處理啊?我們總不能開放一種產品然後就告訴大家說暴斃是機率的問題啊吃檳榔跟在玩這個俄羅斯輪盤一樣這種高風險我們能夠接受嗎?那部長遇到這個事要怎麼做?我們其中有一個面向就是查核跟檢驗檳榔還有它的顏料啦如果說我們這個都可以台討論看看我們現在是當然是避免它重金屬這方面"},{"start":8127.462,"end":8151.417,"text":"部長可是顯然你的這個知識是有一個很大的落差喔農業部的農業知識入口網站也告訴大家稻釣子是沒有辦法處理的問題喔它是機率問題也沒有辦法在採收的時候剔除所以部長你剛剛所謂的檢驗到底要怎麼做啊這問題也是很嚴重的對吧這個應該是要專業來處理市面上流通這麼多檳榔你怎麼有辦法找到每個稻釣子在出現在哪裡"},{"start":8152.54,"end":8175.886,"text":"我們當然也可以從源頭方面來管控不是啊剛剛已經說了農業部入口網站就說沒辦法沒辦法處理啊源頭也沒辦法也沒辦法剔除啊部長所以你這部分是不是應該回去再研究一下你再專法出現前應該要很清楚知道這個這樣的風險吧聽起來你好像也不曉得倒掉子是什麼問題我想我們會請業務單位在這個方面特別來注意看看有沒有辦法來"},{"start":8176.986,"end":8204.407,"text":"所以部長大家都知道檳榔的危害我想要建議的是說你們是不是應該要針對食用人口進行調查也透過政策去引導使用者的行為轉變讓國人徹底擺脫檳榔的危害部長我想有很多人你應該也治療過很多這個口腔癌的病患他當然還沒得癌之前他可能會覺得說你禁止他吃他很不爽可是他得了癌之後他如果康復了他是不是他得了癌之後他是沒辦法後悔的對不對"},{"start":8206.035,"end":8232.162,"text":"幾乎是沒辦法後悔的那很多人真的復癌就是手術過後變好了之後他才開始不吃這些東西所以我認為部長你不可以說因為這種選票的考量你應該要秉持你的專業而且秉持這個衛福部長你人心人數過去的這個精神你明明知道源頭是怎麼處理你就應該從源頭開始下手讓這些人不要到了後悔才來不及啊"},{"start":8232.796,"end":8244.303,"text":"好,我想這個是我們要努力的方向對於risk factor危險因素任何癌症的危險因素我們都要先來去除只是說在考慮到民情跟"},{"start":8245.316,"end":8251.122,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":8268.121,"end":8288.671,"text":"有部分的民進黨的委員認為部長的立場偏向代孕不脫鉤,導致對立相當大,那也在質詢台上多次抨擊你。那現在部長卻有所本來就有兩個版本,然後要改成改脫鉤的那個版本。為什麼?還是想問一下到底為什麼讓你有所轉變啊?因為10月份的時候衛環委員會應該也討論過這一題,那你當時你們也在捍衛原來的版本。"},{"start":8293.093,"end":8302.425,"text":"總不到兩個月政策大轉彎,請問這一項是受到什麼樣的壓力嗎?還是剛剛提到跟這個檳榔專法有很多類似的是選票考量嗎?還是什麼的問題?"},{"start":8303.345,"end":8325.974,"text":"我想衛福部沒有什麼選票考量,我們就是專業認真執行。是啊,我們覺得你應該秉持專業嘛,對不對?所以有關這個代孕的部分剛也很多人提到啊,其實過去早在...我想早上委員也應該可以看到兩邊的一個提案者多麼激烈的爭辯,所以這就是一個真的分歧非常大,如果我們"},{"start":8327.594,"end":8349.645,"text":"所以我也是想要呼籲一下剛剛我們很溫暖的蘇清泉召委我覺得他剛剛講的是很溫暖這其實是一個在很民生然後很幫助可能是在幫助解決很多病患或者是有需求的人不應該是這種劍拔弩張的感覺我看剛剛我們陳菁輝委員代理主席也是很溫和的在講很多"},{"start":8350.145,"end":8352.447,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8380.137,"end":8385.368,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員"},{"start":9068.652,"end":9070.193,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們請部長。"},{"start":9085.848,"end":9091.252,"text":"五、委員黃昭蕙等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。五、委員黃昭蕙等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":9102.381,"end":9106.744,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":9127.876,"end":9156.546,"text":"如果就是說假設我們要修這個人工生殖法然後走向開放代理孕母如果這個是假設性的那在衛福部的討論當中是不是有這個代孕者的相關配套措施那我們知道就是說在其他國家譬如說美國、加州為例那他們有意擔任代理孕母的人通常會向代孕仲介提出申請"},{"start":9158.067,"end":9182.848,"text":"接受身心評估確定是否適任提出申請的時候會續名是不是接受檢胎、墮胎、產後是不是願意跟委託的家庭保持聯繫我想請教就是說如果假設我們修這個人工生殖法走向開放代理孕母有沒有這樣的一個措施可以執行"},{"start":9183.424,"end":9207.382,"text":"好,謝謝黃昭薇這麼精闢的一個了解跟問題,然後想國建署可以召開的公聽會,還有可以說無四次的專家會議我當時在擔任議事公會理事長的時候,我都有特別指派精兵去參加這個國建署的會議,希望去提供專業的一個"},{"start":9208.323,"end":9216.529,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":9236.463,"end":9244.388,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案"},{"start":9261.98,"end":9288.061,"text":"那這個都是大家我是認為我們法律盡量去完備那大家可以盡力來討論如果不完備的地方那當然未來如果朝專法也好或者另外請相關的處理方式也好也謝謝委員大家給我們我們都希望它更完備所以署長所以你的意思是說以目前這個人工生殖法的部分其實它的我剛剛講的那幾項其實還不是那麼的完備是嗎我們是有做了相關多的設計是"},{"start":9289.643,"end":9293.373,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具"},{"start":9295.657,"end":9299.76,"text":"一、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9319.835,"end":9322.356,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":9339.181,"end":9346.202,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":9364.843,"end":9385.757,"text":"剛剛提到的我們在這個設計裡面來講其實是對剛剛提到的相關的一些企業那相關的一些身體自主錢、兒女自息錢還有剛剛提到的特別是有關利他的這樣的一個方式那未來這樣的機構我們是設定在公益法人機構來做相關的一些服務"},{"start":9386.497,"end":9410.386,"text":"那有關剛剛中間的環委錢或者是中間的這些自主錢都有在法律上希望能夠有一些幫忙跟協助就是有一些規範。那署長我想請教就是說我們要立這一部法其實這個關於就是說我們這個在法令上的協助你們有跟法務部這邊有做一個討論嗎?或者是只有你們衛福部這邊自己內部的一個討論?"},{"start":9412.036,"end":9433.827,"text":"對於過去的這些二、三十次的相關的一些專家會議討論,那我們都有邀司法院、內政、那個法務部啦,都有相關的團體,包括一些公益團體都有來參與這樣的研討。好,那另外我想請教齁,就是說你們在草案當中齁,就是說你有提到一個代孕價格換算約為一百萬。好,這、這個……"},{"start":9437.356,"end":9462.812,"text":"這個是媒體換算的而且沒有問過我們所以這個100萬如何算的對所以我想問一下媒體自己算的不是我們算的不是你們自己放出來的嗎沒有沒有那個是媒體自己寫的冠上衛福部的我們的護藥署的副署長的名字那是我們後來有跟這個媒體有抗議過那也就有向外來修正他並沒有問到我們這樣的一個評估記者"},{"start":9464.453,"end":9467.475,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案》案。"},{"start":9484.864,"end":9503.641,"text":"昨天媒體是說100萬,那你說這個不是你們講的,那未來可能有一個對價嗎?多少價格?可能就是剛剛講的營養費,或者是可能他的工作損失的這個費用,那這個財務上的這個保障是由誰來保障?"},{"start":9504.508,"end":9530.429,"text":"所以我們目前草案的設定裡面來講必須要成立一個信託專務來做處理所以這個委託者必須要把這些相關的兩方談好的這些利他的包括剛剛說的行政、諮詢、營養、檢查、生意、作業制還有工作的損失等等大家有一個合以後的把這筆檢討請到信託裡面去處理所以你們也有跟信託工會或者是集團會這邊有做討論"},{"start":9533.27,"end":9554.535,"text":"接下來我再請教一個問題就是說其實在坊間一般的民眾會覺得會有道德上的風險也許他可能是受到這個女性可能也許受到家庭的壓力或者是他這個女性可能是經濟弱勢那不得不來從事這樣的一個代理"},{"start":9554.735,"end":9561.901,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9574.008,"end":9586.174,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9602.795,"end":9626.049,"text":"跟委員報告一下,因為其實剛剛提到道德是很難用法律來做規範。有一些事情它是道德上的問題,但是我們在這個涉及,為什麼我們剛剛提到道德,在討論說是不是現等、輕等,其實現在現等就會剛剛委員所說的,在我的看法,它就會很容易淪入到家庭的一個倫理的壓迫的一些問題,或者被迫性的一些問題。"},{"start":9626.889,"end":9641.205,"text":"所以我們過去的設計上並不贊成用五等性來做限制而是要選擇這個代理義務的評估適合不適合來做這樣的機制來做管控盡量避免這種家庭倫理的一些壓迫的問題"},{"start":9641.786,"end":9658.996,"text":"等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、人工生殖法"},{"start":9659.236,"end":9665.082,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案"},{"start":9682.799,"end":9691.322,"text":"好不好,是不是請部長再回應一下。好的,謝謝委員的指教。我們會來能力。好,謝謝。謝謝黃昭偉。謝謝部長。繼續我們請葉仁芝委員出席。請衛福部長,謝謝。"},{"start":9710.87,"end":9718.331,"text":"議員好部長好我來關心一個食安的問題部長你知不知道我們很多食物中毒到最後其實都是不知道原因你知道嗎"},{"start":9719.955,"end":9747.275,"text":"我們國人常常發生食物中毒,但是最後都是原因不明,不知道被什麼影響到?知道這事嗎?我是覺得衛生單位應該是很努力在...沒有啦,我問你知不知道?我就4分鐘啦,直接回答問題沒這麼困難啦。有幾件事情大概都沒有公布出來啦。不是只有幾件啦,我跟你講,其實比例是非常高啊。"},{"start":9748.176,"end":9757.732,"text":"這是去年的數字我們有5196個人食物中毒結果最後有高達近2000人他是不知道為什麼食物中毒"},{"start":9758.874,"end":9783.956,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社"},{"start":9785.457,"end":9796.704,"text":"這個比例你有沒有覺得很高?有沒有覺得非常高?很高啦!不是看起來,真的非常高!好,那我們現在來問一下部長你知道為什麼會這樣嗎?原因是什麼?為什麼會這麼高?"},{"start":9805.866,"end":9823.156,"text":"包括就很多事情後來都不了了之啊報告委員那其實這食物中毒發生以後食藥署會負責進去採取檢體那有的時候這個食魚我們收不到食魚的檢體或我們收到食魚檢體以後它的量不夠讓我們足以分析出來的那個"},{"start":9823.916,"end":9844.386,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法"},{"start":9848.097,"end":9865.282,"text":"檢驗檢驗檢驗檢驗檢驗檢驗"},{"start":9865.402,"end":9867.443,"text":"檢驗當中是沒有做這個?不是啦,以前沒有驗到就代表之後都不會驗到嗎?"},{"start":9895.73,"end":9914.656,"text":"這樣委員我們會待會去把那個標準的流程以後...之前也沒有那個米酵菌酸啊後來不是也是有了那為什麼我特別舉這個菌啊我們來看日本日本的狀況其實他們食物中毒後來以不明原因結案非常少啊大概只有一趴兩趴"},{"start":9915.976,"end":9935.002,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由"},{"start":9939.642,"end":9951.808,"text":"所以日本就有日本有驗這個菌然後就有判定出很多人是因為這樣的食物中毒啊所以他們最後不明原因比較少因為他們驗的菌比較多其實就那麼簡單啊"},{"start":9953.787,"end":9974.253,"text":"處長就是這麼簡單啦因為你驗的菌少所以你最後不明的原因多嘛那我們來看一下我們台灣這邊實際上的狀況這個就是曲狀感菌我現在跟你介紹啦好不好那目前台灣近幾年都沒有通報建樹那不是說可以直接斷定說是因為不是被他們感染所以我們根本沒驗那我們是驗什麼勒?"},{"start":9975.949,"end":10002.964,"text":"這就是我們平常驗的五大類金黃色葡萄球菌、仙人掌桿菌還有長岩胡菌、沙門柿桿菌以及病原性大腸桿菌我們就驗這幾個除了驗這個之外都不驗不驗了最後就以不明原因結案我覺得還可以這樣子喔還可以這樣喔不驗就沒有然後最後大家也不知道什麼原因然後反正患者病好了就當沒這件事情"},{"start":10004.383,"end":10027.985,"text":"有這麼粗糙喔我們在食物中毒這塊是有這麼粗糙喔我記得當時我們那時候剛來立法院的時候以前還是陳建仁院長的時候那時候還排那個食安報告把自己的食安做講得多厲害結果我們對於食物中毒的檢驗粗糙成這個樣子部長你你因為你也是520之後才就任的啦跟你反映這個事情你覺得可以接受嗎"},{"start":10029.329,"end":10057.162,"text":"好,我想連日本都有這樣的一個檢查我們一定要謝謝委員的指教我想我們食藥署回去不是你們不驗你們驗這麼少原因是什麼是沒錢嗎上一次米香菌酸的時候還沒有實驗室還沒有這個菌還是跟民間調的每一次都發生原因之後在那邊危機處理然後媒體報的大你們就重視媒體沒有報你們就當沒這回事那國人的健康你們置於何地啊"},{"start":10059.039,"end":10079.259,"text":"能不能夠將這個不明原因減少?能不能?現在高達建樹高達快六成啦!訂一個目標好不好?今年訂一個目標我想我們一定會努力,要看要數有沒有不想,訂一個目標啦!訂一個目標,現在是去年是進六成不明原因,你今年要降到多少?"},{"start":10081.397,"end":10095.06,"text":"我們十二、十四、十五、一、二、一、二、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、"},{"start":10105.438,"end":10133.999,"text":"好不好 沒有那麼誇張的 你定一個目標但你講一個五成 國人能夠接受嗎 大家可以接受說以後食物中毒有五成 我們是不知道原因 大家可以接受嗎所以這個官員講出這樣的話 我們要求那個食藥署至少要降到四成以下第一個階段好不好四成你就 那我們會做檢討的 我跟你講我的標準起碼要跟日本一樣啦 人家是一兩趴啦 你講一個四成"},{"start":10134.699,"end":10145.849,"text":"那當然你說你要從6%直接降到降到1%、2%你們可能覺得不敢講啦但你也要有一個至少目標要遠大一點嘛講個一層嘛一開始講五層後來講四層一層啦好不好目標啦"},{"start":10151.007,"end":10171.829,"text":"我們當然朝著向日本的目標來努力向日本的目標邁進最後最後齁那你們要努力自己定方法出來我現在告訴你驗了菌少就是其中一個原因其他的原因你們自己去然後再來那個最後問一下齁因為最近蘇丹紅的問題又起來了那昨天也有驗到越南的黑胡椒嘛裡面有蘇丹紅"},{"start":10173.181,"end":10188.033,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分"},{"start":10202.369,"end":10214.713,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案﹚立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議"},{"start":10220.215,"end":10248.276,"text":"拉椒粉蘇丹紅從越南進這一批不是拉椒粉啦黑胡椒啦已經一段時間了啦也不是昨天發生的已經一段時間了那上一次拉椒粉的時候專區也有啦然後流向都很清楚這一次就沒有啊那為什麼同樣是食安問題同樣是蘇丹紅上一次因為媒體有報所以很重視這一次因為媒體沒報所以就比較隨便嗎還是怎樣可不可以比照上一次啦把流向怎麼做出來在網站上給大家參考就這麼簡單嘛"},{"start":10250.168,"end":10253.722,"text":"可以吧?可以,委員這我們會去做。那這樣現在蘇丹文到底嚴不嚴重?"},{"start":10255.055,"end":10281.214,"text":"報委員其實這次蘇丹紅的在胡椒粉其實大部分都已經回收那這一次最大的一個量的時候事實上他大概有超過一半我們都超過一半他是已經那時候是因為颱風他已經暴順了其他的量我們都在追其實第一個案子當我們現在只有15公斤左右的是自售他賣去其他的大概都回都已經回收下架或者銷毀了那這個160公斤的有像六線式的"},{"start":10285.998,"end":10296.666,"text":"這個我們持續還在查這個。還在查嗎?所以他就有可能流到市面上嗎?是。對,所以是應該要提醒國人的啊。好不好?謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝委員,謝謝部長。接下來我們請楊耀、楊委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。主席,我請一下吳署長。"},{"start":10323.14,"end":10324.266,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議"},{"start":10326.876,"end":10351.584,"text":"蘇長,我們就是在單身女性跟女性同婚的人工生殖大概大家比較沒有意見,對不對?意見比較一致可是我看衛福部的草案裡面大概有明定說假如要用人工生殖進行前必須要進行子女最佳利益評估這個確實很重要"},{"start":10354.537,"end":10372.04,"text":"那譬如說評估項目有品性、經濟能力等等,你個人的想法怎麼讓這些評估不淪為形式上的程序步驟?"},{"start":10373.743,"end":10398.814,"text":"要怎樣才能踏實?因為這個很重要當然非常重要所以必須要建立相關的評估的機制跟規範還有品質的一個確保所以我們會有第三外督的一個機制我問這個就是因為子女還是最優先要被保障的對象接下來問一下就是"},{"start":10400.813,"end":10423.501,"text":"我們現在最大的增值是在代孕升值的部分那衛福部其實五月份就已經有版本出來對不對那12月初前幾天署長對媒體還說就是"},{"start":10427.557,"end":10448.194,"text":"不裡面並沒有立場一定要要專章我這樣子的敘述對不對在程序在走的過程中的確如委員所說那現在在短短的幾天之內又變成一定要立專法我這麼講並不是我反對立專法我是要講說為什麼一個行政機關"},{"start":10456.499,"end":10477.819,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件並不是一個新的議題。」例如說可以看到的資料是2002年"},{"start":10481.247,"end":10497.386,"text":"內清德委員就已經有提過了表示這個在台灣社會其實已經討論很久的東西那你們行政機關在這麼短的半年裡面你們的政策這麼反覆為什麼?"},{"start":10499.402,"end":10524.371,"text":"跟委員報告現在很關心那其實就是因為討論非常的久而且國民監察署也跟國際、國內相關的專家然後做相關的討論跟研議那也將相關的法條就是預告的版本做完預告那也是回應很多社會的期待還有立法院當初有提一些版本還有公聽會的一些要求甚至於質詢當時謝前部長的"},{"start":10527.412,"end":10531.953,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿 行政稿"},{"start":10557.741,"end":10568.086,"text":"為什麼12月初還說你們...因為那時候程序還沒有做完啊都還是在做程序啊目前我們的布板才決定而已啊所以就是也算很急就章的在這兩天決定"},{"start":10578.944,"end":10605.454,"text":"應該是這樣,跟委員說明一下,其實就是說我們當時把它設計進來的時候,其實是用專章的方式在處理。對,那如果說要把它切割下來的話,我們就把那個專章給剔除而已。那也就是說把專章剔除,然後你們把專章改成專法。未來再做研議,未來再做研議。那你還必須要研議多久?"},{"start":10607.028,"end":10634.305,"text":"這個還是要重啟,如果它是專法就要依法的程序重新走一次啊還要重新走一次那就是還要等你們我剛剛講了就是說這不是一個新的議題這是在台灣社會已經討論很久的問題甚至於在立法院2002年賴慶德委員就已經有"},{"start":10635.953,"end":10663.61,"text":"包括蕭美琴委員我看連署他們兩個都有就是從那時候開始討論我現在並不是說不能立專法只是說為什麼行政機關的速度會那麼慢慢到現在委員的版本一大堆然後大家等你們等你們也沒關係因為我個人的主張是這樣子就是要嘛就是一次"},{"start":10664.707,"end":10680.079,"text":"把這個問題一併做一個檢討,把立法完善的完成。我也想要問一下就是說你們預告收集了600多則的意見,署長覺得量體夠大嗎?"},{"start":10688.134,"end":10711.613,"text":"這是來反映在給我們的意見上面的對反映本身本來就是反對的會比較勇於表態這個第一點第二點我也不覺得600多則的數量夠我還是回到最初我覺得今天"},{"start":10713.612,"end":10736.409,"text":"大家都希望能夠保障每一個人的生育平等我想行政、立法部門沒有人反對而現在我講的是行政機關的立法速度包括署長你在對外發言的時候"},{"start":10739.124,"end":10763.277,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬"},{"start":10764.841,"end":10791.768,"text":"等專法進來一併做討論這樣子比較可以讓整個人工生殖的部分做一個完善的法制建構可是你們真的不能拖延太久我們就衝擊以火熱"},{"start":10794.025,"end":10812.391,"text":"那這樣子的一個程序需要多久?他必須還是要做專家會議討論完了以後收集意見、預告等相關程序。那大概多久?這個流程要多久?這個流程當然會比較長。當然會比較長。署長假如說當然會比較長,那"},{"start":10820.029,"end":10832.309,"text":"那就比較麻煩啦,因為這麼多委員的提案版本,大家能不能等待你們那麼久?"},{"start":10833.868,"end":10862.816,"text":"台灣有一些不孕的人工生殖需求的民眾有沒有辦法等那麼久?這個都是一個問題。我們當然要盡快,那是法制還是要議程序來做?你們的盡快在速率上比起立法院真的慢很多。謝謝署長、謝謝主席、謝謝委員。"},{"start":10866.391,"end":10869.754,"text":"謝謝楊委員,謝謝署長。那接下來我們請圖前幾位質詢。好,謝謝主席。那請一下我們邱部長。圖委員好。"},{"start":10887.438,"end":10905.055,"text":"好部長那當然我們本期有看我們12月2號衛福部國建署針對人工生殖法有發了一篇新聞稿針對代孕確定脫鉤人工生殖法那其實我們都知道一直以來我們都以為這次會納入"},{"start":10905.896,"end":10910.499,"text":"等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10921.584,"end":10947.85,"text":"因為一直以來其實要不要把它納入這個這次的法裡面其實都有不同的聲音所以這個修法是一直延續性那預告是其中一個過程那當然會讓我們覺得如果弄成磚瘴的狀況是怎麼樣如果把它偷鉤的話會怎麼樣這個其實長久以來就有所以沒有說急轉彎啦而是到最後覺得"},{"start":10949.21,"end":10969.975,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草"},{"start":10977.037,"end":10986.523,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":10997.265,"end":11020.394,"text":"五、委員那個其實你是比較國民黨民眾黨還有衛福部啦齁如果能夠把民眾民進黨的也列進去你會發現是差不多平衡就是有不同的我們有列表啦齁等一下部長你自己的態度啊你自己認為應不應該納入我覺得有時候修法立法沒有那麼一定是"},{"start":11021.514,"end":11028.597,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11040.834,"end":11055.832,"text":"我覺得如果能夠得到社會大家的共識的事情我雖然有我專業的一個立場但是也要考慮到整個可是我記得好像好像之前你們都是支持的對不對"},{"start":11056.755,"end":11074.724,"text":"我支持討論,但是到最後沒有公示。那你對於《人工生殖法》納入代孕,你自己的態度,我很想了解,當然你衛福部有衛福部的立場,那你自己的態度到底是支持還是不支持?我想我個人的態度真的不重要,最重要的是大家團體,各個專業團體、民團。"},{"start":11078.166,"end":11082.228,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":11102.037,"end":11104.08,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11114.264,"end":11136.685,"text":"對於這部分的立場應該不要太模糊。我覺得應該是我們對於人工生殖法應該是要更進步要去解決我們這些代孕這些的問題而不是立場模糊一直搖擺不定那這樣子我們人工生殖法這部分怎麼可能會更進步而且針對人工生殖法草案"},{"start":11137.546,"end":11156.816,"text":"那說實在的話我們一直也沒有看到衛福部自己草案也沒有看到我們衛福部的版本那我們總統有召開這個健康台灣推動委員會不知道有沒有討論到針對這個人工生殖法代孕這個相關的議題報告委員會"},{"start":11161.579,"end":11163.46,"text":"在過去的討論當中沒有討論到這個都沒有討論到這個"},{"start":11180.585,"end":11208.024,"text":"其實據我們來瞭解剛剛我也聽到很多委員有提起尤其有上一個楊耀委員他也有講針對其實我們的賴清德總統他在擔任立委的時候他自己也在91年有提案把人工生殖法條文內涵蓋代孕而且他也提到傳統倫理必須透過立法將這些行為逐步規範而且勢在必行"},{"start":11208.644,"end":11217.025,"text":"而且這些連署人包含了蕭美琴、包含了我們現任的高雄市長陳其邁所以其實他們都是認同的啊"},{"start":11219.707,"end":11245.194,"text":"而且賴總統在擔任立委的時候他自己也說領養小孩愈來愈少而且領養別人的小孩是極為困難的事情所以照這樣來講人工生殖法、修法把代孕納入我覺得也是共識啊也是我們總統的共識也是副總統的共識我看很多之前很多民進黨立委擔任的時候都認為應該納入那為什麼現在"},{"start":11248.57,"end":11254.232,"text":"覺得這個部分會民進黨部分還有衛福部會覺得不應該納入而且要脫鉤。所以他認為納入是對的啊。"},{"start":11271.036,"end":11275.319,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":11301.197,"end":11302.461,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案件》案。"},{"start":11304.151,"end":11331.951,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案〉案。 部長其實據我們了解現在我們看得到衛福部國建署針對我們人工生殖法這一部分我覺得大家針對這一部分代孕制度納入與否並不是我們現在討論的重點而是代孕的存在好像大家認為說不應以商業盈利為目的是不是今天針對這一部分才是重點"},{"start":11334,"end":11353.556,"text":"這當然是一個很重要的是一個論點所以是不是我們應該更應該好好去討論要定出一個辦法把這些問題一一來去解決而不是去逃避問題而不是去卸責啊謝謝委員指教齁我想我們沒有卸責啦齁那就是讓"},{"start":11355.754,"end":11374.492,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及生殖法部分條文修"},{"start":11379.637,"end":11394.252,"text":"之前一直大家都有一個共識都認為這代孕制度會納入結果後來突然又來一個大轉彎然後又把它脫鉤又說要立一個專法其實大家都認為說這專法遙遙無期啊我也聽到很多委員講他這個問題大家討論很久"},{"start":11397.515,"end":11425.944,"text":"那現在又說要專法基本上他認為在他這個任內根本就不可能討論到那根本就是在逃避責任啊所以是不是應該面對問題好好的針對這個問題來討論不要再有模糊地帶針對大家的需求應該一一的來解決把這個法案要怎麼去定怎麼去修怎麼樣子讓它做得更完善才是重點應該是面對問題而不是想辦法把它脫鉤先把它推掉到時候再說"},{"start":11428.192,"end":11444.675,"text":"謝謝委的指教我們絕對沒有推掉責任只要任何一個人民需要的都是我們衛福部以及政府所關心的但是他要考慮他的一個還有是不是還有更要處理的更周全那這件可能應該"},{"start":11446.058,"end":11456.044,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人�"},{"start":11474.714,"end":11492.925,"text":"所以我們今天要討論這問題就是要解決他們的問題所以希望我們衛福部主管單位要面對問題不是把它脫鉤就卸責專法到時候再說遙遙無期今天大家都認為說已經好不容易有一個共識結果突然有一個急轉彎一個大轉彎這前面討論的都白討論希望部長我們來深思好好怎麼樣解決這些"},{"start":11499.629,"end":11518.856,"text":"先天後天不孕無法生育的這個群體,請部長多幫忙。是的,我們一定跟委員一樣非常關心,而且會想辦法來幫忙。好,希望我們部長、衛福部我們真的要面對這個問題來解決。是的,好,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝土偉,謝謝部長。接著我們請林淑雯委員質詢。"},{"start":11530.556,"end":11533.342,"text":"主席,各位大家好,是不是請我們邱部長。委員好。"},{"start":11540.117,"end":11555.867,"text":"副長,這個今天支持代孕的人大概都講說有共識,而我不知道他們的共識到底是怎麼來的。是少數幾個人說好就是共識的嗎?然後呢,大概有幾個講法,第一個就講說過去2004年還有2012年開過兩次公民審議會議,還做過民調,所以這個就是有共識。"},{"start":11567.774,"end":11575.101,"text":"最新的講法是說你看賴總統91年也有講過所以這個叫有共識如果總統說的91年這個是22年前講的可以成為聖旨的話那麼現在賴總統他可能會說請在野黨年金改革要顧及國家財政那你們也要聽一下啊"},{"start":11593.017,"end":11595.319,"text":"總統講的話你們就這麼聽的話他也講到說其實這個罷免法的這個選罷法的修正不能把它變罷免不能變成鳥籠公投啊你們怎麼不聽呢財政收支法也不能亂搞啊怎麼不聽呢所以今天"},{"start":11610.871,"end":11621.108,"text":"不要在那邊亂講胡說八道所以這個共識我今天要戳破所謂的共識所謂的20年前20幾年前的兩場的公民審議會議第一個"},{"start":11623.615,"end":11624.995,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．20人擬具〉20人擬具〉20人擬具〉20人擬具〉20人擬具"},{"start":11653.644,"end":11657.646,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":11681.758,"end":11710.838,"text":"而這個議題呢相當的複雜而且當時社會沒有討論過民眾也不了解更荒謬的是議題裡面這樣問請問您贊不贊成針對某些特殊狀況在有相關配套和管理的條件下將代理孕母技術納入規範提供經過評估有特殊需要的民眾欸這個問題很好笑什麼叫有特殊情形那相關配套又是什麼有管理的條件是什麼"},{"start":11711.738,"end":11729.85,"text":"通通不知道然後將代理孕母技術納入規範規範是什麼不知道然後去問你說支不支持還有一個問題是這樣問的政府如果制定法律配套其實可以允許某些民眾在特定條件下和規範下委託他人代孕請問你比較贊成哪一種狀況"},{"start":11731.472,"end":11753.071,"text":"政府如果制定法律配套,配套內容是什麼?問卷內容?不知道。然後允許民眾在特定條件下,特定條件是什麼?也沒有說清楚。通通都不清不楚,不明不白,條件沒有設定,然後就這樣去隨便亂問。然後得出來結論說這個叫做社會共識。這個是太荒謬了吧。所以我們今天在講"},{"start":11754.95,"end":11767.984,"text":"這一些問題不明確沒有定義然後強烈的誘導性所以調查的可信性不具備所以在這裡我們要講兩場公民共識會議還有電話民調時隔已久社會變遷大而且經過他國的代孕的經驗及新視角的加入社會已經有新的看法"},{"start":11778.494,"end":11784.958,"text":"擬具不具民意代表性的公民審議會議以及沒有可信度的電訪作為現在修法的討論基礎而聲稱代孕制度是國人共識是沒有說服力的更不要講賴總統23年前怎麼說這個是太荒謬的從年初衛福部的兩場公聽會還有預告人工生殖法修正草案後社會的反應來看今年最新的"},{"start":11806.83,"end":11822.888,"text":"公聽會各界的公聽會來看多數的意見都主張開放人工生殖法適用對象應與代理孕母脫鉤處理而且認為現在台灣社會根本不具有得以開放代孕的條件"},{"start":11823.709,"end":11849.461,"text":"委員還有二十年來社會的變遷這麼大不論支持或反對都需要先讓社會對這個議題有更多的理解而且要理性討論是否要有代孕制度而不是在共識不足的狀況裡面討論根本就沒有社會對話沒有足夠的社會討論下直接就進入由上而下透過少數幾個人的意志然後就"},{"start":11852.102,"end":11880.522,"text":"透過多數決然後進入這個馬上就完成立法這樣子是不行的部長你們到底是怎麼態度啊我們當然是專業跟開放然後站在人民的健康開放什麼啦開放什麼開放代理孕母嗎不是我是說開放的態度來接受大家的信息現在你們接受到的態度是什麼啊接受的態度就是因為"},{"start":11881.483,"end":11906.65,"text":"在前面兩個主題那個共識度高所以我們建議這兩個來先行讓社會更多人照顧社會更多的人前面的兩個主題是什麼是那個單身女性還有那個同性女同性那那個至於代理孕母因為他的爭議分歧真的太大那我剛剛講公民會議和電話民調的可信度呢你覺得呢"},{"start":11908.878,"end":11921.712,"text":"因為陳昭芝委員一直以20個人參加他自己打臉當時的公民審議會議的共識我們再來看一下我早早念過嘛 這個是什麼時候的報紙"},{"start":11923.714,"end":11945.808,"text":"9393年8月25日的禮拜三的報紙中國時報第一遭代理育母公民預備會議20個人代表確定沒錯20個人當時陳昭之委員怎麼講20個人的結論難抵立院名義認為我把它講了那個報導內容最右邊的內容念一次給大家看吶吼"},{"start":11946.949,"end":11963.991,"text":"文中提到,爭取代理孕母合法化的和信醫院藥劑科主任陳昭智認為,公民共識會議的20個人根本不具公民代表性。他指出,藥品臨床試驗如果找20個人來做實驗,一定不能代表母體。"},{"start":11965.612,"end":11989.479,"text":"檢驗結果只能以個案認定,自然科學都有這一類的限制了,社會科學的範圍更廣泛。二十個人怎麼能夠代表台灣公民的意見呢?他說,就台灣2300萬的人口來說,二十個人實在是太少了。要說這些人的意見是公民共識,科學基礎上站不住腳,不足以說服大眾。"},{"start":11990.679,"end":12001.864,"text":"維生署若以20人討論結果為政策依據,將來出爐的草案怎麼在立法院說服看法不同的立委呢?我就是要用他的話來告訴陳委員。你當時所認為沒有代表性的公民共識會議,今天"},{"start":12009.688,"end":12021.83,"text":"你卓飛金氏今天動不動就把這個沒有代表性的你口中所聲稱的沒有代表性的公民會議拿出來當你支撐的理由和所謂的有共識欸2004、2012都只有20個人參加了欸這個叫做有社會共識嗎結果陳委員現在是公民會議的這個還有這個民調結果為推動立法的規念"},{"start":12037.113,"end":12045.52,"text":"我們真的覺得這樣薄弱的支撐啊來講說有社會共識 這個絕對不是事實這個絕對不是事實喔好 那我接下來講說啊剛才很多委員就講說我們不要商業化的出租子宮我們要利他的利他代孕生小孩利他代孕啦終究只是一個掩蓋工具化女性的騙局啦"},{"start":12067.133,"end":12073.118,"text":"我舉一個台大法律系陳昭儒教授的講法。我們可以這個真實世界每個人所擁有的資本跟籌碼都不一樣。你願意幫人家代孕的同意經常是在不平等的狀況下給出去的。"},{"start":12095.612,"end":12097.717,"text":"有人說陳委員一直講求子是他的夢想是人性。有人說陳委員一直講求子是他的夢想是人性。"},{"start":12101.397,"end":12122.594,"text":"但是呢,你有沒有想過道德上並不是你有需求就要被滿足這個是陳昭如這個教授講的即便是近年盛行的生育權的論述也不見得能推導出代孕合法這常被類比的就是器官買賣我們不會認為為了保障一個人的生命權"},{"start":12127.438,"end":12135.004,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件,即使生命權至高無上,也不能正當化去買別人的肝。」"},{"start":12136.482,"end":12138.944,"text":"此風一開,代孕合法化了以後,大家都知道都是有錢人要去買經濟弱勢人的子宮來出租出借。"},{"start":12158.94,"end":12185.214,"text":"例他是一種接近包裝的論述。陳昭如教授說,例他與否是動機問題,但是你們例他不代表不能獲利,並不因只是補償工作損失,還是送一個經濟來改變他的本質。現在假借著例他壓低代孕的價格,事實上其實是一種剝削。"},{"start":12186.255,"end":12187.896,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12225.478,"end":12237.942,"text":"在代孕的過程,代孕者他的家人、他的家庭、先生、小孩、父母、公婆都要一起投入。他的生活都深受影響,而他的雇主、他的同事都要配合他的懷孕及生產而調整作業。"},{"start":12240.223,"end":12263.213,"text":"所以它不是只有出租、子宮、個人的付出家庭、職場都是代孕的一環在集體的付出都沒有被看到第二個最重要的代孕絕對是健康風險的轉嫁你不可以簡化成只是代理生一個小孩根據台女聯所供應的資料來看"},{"start":12264.253,"end":12267.455,"text":"大運是人工生殖技術的進行但是呢這種技術35歲以下的活產率大概是35%所以代理孕母平均要經過2.5到3次的懷孕週期才能成功要試驗這麼多次"},{"start":12288.79,"end":12308.585,"text":"對身心健康有很大的影響而懷孕到生產都有一定的風險在台灣認成性的糖尿病發生率17%認成性的高血壓發生率10%還有子顛前症產後大出血、羊水酸篩、剖腹產子宮切除胎兒新生兒產婦死亡"},{"start":12309.986,"end":12322.69,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第1次"},{"start":12336.855,"end":12351.507,"text":"所以代孕不是替人家懷孕生殖而已,而是承接了委託者在懷孕生產中的所有風險甚至是死亡的可能性。部長,你有掌握這樣的數據嗎?包委員,我沒有掌握到這麼詳細的一個數據,非常敬佩。你聽了以後你覺得做何感想?"},{"start":12365.208,"end":12380.335,"text":"所以還在那裡講只能利他為了反對商業化只能利他還要壓低人家的價格事實上本質上這是健康風險的轉嫁除了少數真的是為了親朋好友願意付出以外其實現在都是經濟優勢的強要人家經濟弱勢者的子宮出借"},{"start":12389,"end":12394.823,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12416.498,"end":12418.439,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":12432.368,"end":12449.969,"text":"五場並不是沒有完全沒有金錢的涉入欸你們現在五場是說以必要的費用作為代孕的五場給付可是呢懷孕本身24小時身心的運作的付出孕產的健康死亡的風險產後的健康影響完全沒有被列入必要的成本裡面欸"},{"start":12451.551,"end":12472.457,"text":"所謂的利他代孕事實上是代理孕母全部身心和生活的投入和長期的付出又有難以避免的風險還要事後身體健康的所有代價因此決定要代孕的人多為有經濟壓力的弱勢對於弱勢者的高度付出給予最低的費用"},{"start":12473.891,"end":12493.66,"text":"只有那你們自己定義的必要的費用,這個就是剝削。利他代孕本質就是一個掩蓋工具化女性的騙局。我們不要再回過頭來,代孕生小孩不是生理自主權的展現,他是傷害生理自主權。我們剛剛講了啊,"},{"start":12496.241,"end":12510.753,"text":"在民主的社會身體的自主我的身體我自己決定那你可以說我要販賣我自己自願當奴隸民主社會可以允許嗎這個自願所謂自願背後通常代表的是貧窮啊我們不會允許是因為他踐踏了人性的尊嚴所以我們剛剛講說活體器官的捐贈法律也不允許啊如果你允許開放了多少人想要自願捐肝啊"},{"start":12525.831,"end":12542.205,"text":"但是我們知道活體捐肝很多都是要當時我們認為不可以五等親以外不可以是因為防止藉著善心自願之名請買賣之時的剝削所以我們這樣把它禁掉了在這種狀況裡面我們其實是還開放五等親五親等是為了成全病患求生的需求"},{"start":12553.775,"end":12561.587,"text":"檢過了相當程度是個人的意願和選擇和病患的求生的需求是為了救人而不得不"},{"start":12563.28,"end":12589.941,"text":"所以現在有些人用身體自主權來合理化代理孕母時我們都覺得說你是在說什麼?真的有人願意嗎?除了至親最愛為了那個少數的身體缺陷的真的有我相信有但是開放了以後大多數大多數都不是大多數都不是更不要講我最後講代理孕母是父權文化壓迫女性的產物"},{"start":12591.242,"end":12619.23,"text":"剛剛有委員說我領養了一個但是我還是要生一個完成我的夢想我追求的夢想你只想到你自己的夢想你有沒有想到被你生出來的小孩你滿足了個人想要自己血清的孩子的願望但是你讓代理孕母付出巨大的代價侵犯人的尊嚴和完整性衝擊社會的價值而且為社會製造了更多的問題"},{"start":12620.49,"end":12636.554,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案"},{"start":12646.618,"end":12649.241,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesa"},{"start":12664.039,"end":12686.78,"text":"其實版本也不用念了因為等行政院院版的話版本其實也不用進行我們今天是應該詢答大家討論然後就結束等到院版進來我們再主條然後當時再來宣讀版本不是更完備嗎所以在這裡建議一下主席啦拜託主席謝謝謝謝林淑雯委員謝謝部長接下來我們請吳思堯委員質詢"},{"start":12697.881,"end":12699.742,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長。委員好。大家辛苦喔。女人不是商品,所以我支持人工生殖法要跟代理孕母來脫鉤。那我剛剛很遺憾的聽到有之前的委員發言,他認為如果讓代孕另外脫鉤來處理,這是謝責。"},{"start":12726.451,"end":12750.957,"text":"我反而要說這是負責因為我們在討論的是攸關生命的議題攸關人權的議題攸關性別的議題不可不慎要讓有共識的先行社會沒有共識的我們應當嚴肅的來討論我首先讓大家看一段短短20秒的影片"},{"start":12755.882,"end":12778.959,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesley Chen等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesley Chen等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。Nesley Chen等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。Nesley Chen等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。Nesley Chen等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。Nesley Chen等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。Nesley Chen等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。N"},{"start":12786.977,"end":12805.595,"text":"在這一屆立委選舉的時候,非常遺憾,我的對手邀請了前我們的衛生署長楊志良先生來站台。站台居然就做了這樣非常失言的發言,他說:「臺灣女人三十歲以後的母老嬰兒"},{"start":12806.991,"end":12828.919,"text":"五、委員吳思瑤等50人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、委員吳思瑤等19人擬"},{"start":12836.448,"end":12838.129,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。"},{"start":12858.24,"end":12870.817,"text":"我反對這種殺蚊殺豬主義而今天我們討論的代孕制度事實上它的本質就是很多的楊智良們"},{"start":12872.81,"end":12875.191,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":12894.523,"end":12915.033,"text":"能不能夠脫鉤我們更正向的確保人權,確保性別不受歧視,這是核心的議題啊。所以部長,楊志良應該跟您也是前好朋友啦,大家都在衛生福利界。你認為他說:「無生小孩就無好,無私養絕子絕孫。」你認同這樣的想法嗎?當然不認同。"},{"start":12919.448,"end":12935.941,"text":"那我想我也很抱歉我剛剛在司法法治委員會我也透過直播看到了很抱歉喔主席你說一句話我也聽起來很痛你說代理孕母的議題是女人跟女人的戰爭是這樣嗎?No one is outsider他涉及生命、涉及人權、涉及家庭"},{"start":12948.786,"end":12961.234,"text":"No one is outsider,請不要製造性別的對立。我反對這種退步的、這種落伍的、這種歧視的觀點。"},{"start":12963.516,"end":12983.829,"text":"在這種觀點之下我很遺憾我認為在討論今天人工生殖法的課題恐怕都沒有辦法回到正向的討論首先我要挑戰討論這個議案的核心的那個性別歧視性別意識不足的問題要被打破下一頁"},{"start":12985.287,"end":13008.438,"text":"民意反對代孕所以不宜倉促的立法我以最新一次針對這個主題的民調是彩虹平權大平台他們對於人工生殖及代孕做了民調70.7%支持人工生殖適用於單身女性"},{"start":13011.742,"end":13036.795,"text":"61.4%支持人工生殖應當優先適用於女女同志之間高達50.4%不支持現在讓代孕上路而衛福部你們所做的公告之後收到了600多則的意見嘛對不對部長當中有多少是反對代孕的也有八成"},{"start":13038.841,"end":13049.437,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。所以應當要聽到民意、審慎為之,不要為快而快。下一頁。"},{"start":13052.047,"end":13079.46,"text":"這週二,NGO召開了記者會,代孕侵害人權,停止代孕立法。NGO站出來,在今天我們審查人工生殖法的此時此刻,也有一群公民朋友在立法院周遭集結緊急的來呼籲,捍衛女性的人權,反對代孕,這是民意。下一頁。"},{"start":13080.714,"end":13088.689,"text":"所以民進黨團我們這週召開了我們共同倡議的記者會人工生殖跟代理孕母要脫鉤"},{"start":13090.939,"end":13098.624,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":13117.896,"end":13136.605,"text":"然後我也要求討論人工生殖法一定要有院版您同意我的三大立場嗎部長脫鉤專法或是兩階段立法以及要有院版我想我們現在的立場就是這樣子好很好在下一頁"},{"start":13137.728,"end":13151.022,"text":"我也要挑戰嚴肅的生命議題請不要成為不同意見者的對立我非常遺憾藍白的在野黨的委員們透過謾罵、透過恐嚇、透過情樂"},{"start":13158.327,"end":13170.562,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":13171.323,"end":13184.556,"text":"把這些爭取女性權益的夥伴們把他扭曲成為心理變態。這反而陳昭之委員如果要推人工生殖法可是很可惜正因為您這種非理性的胡亂的指涉反而讓這個議案的討論失焦了因為他製造了對立我覺得非常的可惜"},{"start":13194.565,"end":13215.689,"text":"同樣我們蘇委員身為醫師出身我也非常尊重您我是真的期待不應當因為黨團之間或是立委之間的立場不同您就說如果代孕不處理那人工生殖法會讓它繼續卡著我希望這是媒體報導的缺漏我希望它不是事實我最後來"},{"start":13225.26,"end":13227.386,"text":"很多問題應當要嚴肅討論,兒童的權益如何保障?"},{"start":13231.479,"end":13238.761,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件事項》案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":13260.489,"end":13274.504,"text":"很抱歉,占用了一點點時間。12月3號就這兩天的新聞。非獄兵的女子遭到泰國仲介,帶到柬埔寨去從事代孕,而且有13個人被關進牢裡,被判4年。"},{"start":13275.868,"end":13296.207,"text":"跨國仲介的人可以逃避刑責,但是這些因為經濟弱勢,他被仲介媒合成為代理孕母的人,他菲律賓被帶到泰國去,去泰國,被泰國的仲介帶到柬埔寨去,被關到牢裡的,被入罪的是這些弱勢的代孕。"},{"start":13297.529,"end":13310.418,"text":"所以歐洲議會在今年的4月就做出563比7的高票通過他們認為脅迫女性進行代孕是人口販運脅迫女性進行所謂利他行的代孕就是人口販運這是歐洲議會高票563比7通過的議案"},{"start":13326.431,"end":13355.025,"text":"部長您知道全世界第一個讓人工生殖法上路是哪個國家嗎?人工生殖法還是代理孕母?人工生殖法好我跟您報告是瑞典1984年1984年全球第一個讓人工生殖法上路的進步國家是瑞典但是瑞典迄今還反對代理孕母就是因為很多的人權議題"},{"start":13356.124,"end":13357.674,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":13360.219,"end":13369.963,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":13387.888,"end":13391.03,"text":"謝謝五、謝謝部長。來,接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢。來,謝謝主席。馬上有請部長。委員好。"},{"start":13415.866,"end":13428.515,"text":"部長好我相信為了人工生殖法跟代理孕母這個嚴肅的課題衛福部過去這段時間做了很多的研議跟努力在面對這樣嚴肅的問題的時候事實上"},{"start":13432.601,"end":13456.282,"text":"我認為任何一方都不應該幫另外一方可能不同觀點的人強加帽子這樣不好因為這樣子只會讓台灣社會更加的分裂沒有助於公共政策的討論我為什麼語重心長的用這樣子的方式來開場我先請教一下部長那個"},{"start":13460.336,"end":13486.755,"text":"我為什麼這麼語重心長的開場我在回溯我們立法院我們的整個國家針對有關於人工生殖跟代理育母整個發展立法的推動公共政策討論的歷程當中"},{"start":13489.142,"end":13517.633,"text":"當初2002年提出人工生殖法草案認為應該要贊成代理孕母是基於人權保障的包括了我們現任的總統賴清德我相信賴清德總統當初在擔任立委的時候在人工生殖法裡面贊成代理孕母一定是本於良善的初衷"},{"start":13518.717,"end":13538.905,"text":"他絕對不是因為要去物化我們女性的朋友或者是要侵害我們女性的人權而提出這樣的法案部長你認同嗎?我認同你認同嗎?這是因為這個樣子啊所以我真的覺得在討論這個課題的時候我們大家就事論事"},{"start":13541.205,"end":13567.198,"text":"針對代理育母可能會產生不管是對於未來的子女還是代理育母還是有需要的婦女們彼此之間的利害關係怎麼樣好好的、審慎的去思考才是一個健康的態度也正是因為這個樣子部長您知不知道針對代理育母的議題我們國家舉辦過幾次大型的公民審議會議"},{"start":13570.207,"end":13592.024,"text":"據剛剛大家幾位委員的陳述大概有兩次一次是2004年一次是2012年這不是民意調查這是一個審議式的民主討論的會議兩次會議的結論基本上面都認為說我們應該有條件的開放"},{"start":13595.462,"end":13624.867,"text":"只是說我們在討論公共政策的時候我們要比較細緻的去討論在什麼樣的條件下適合在什麼樣的條件下可以充分的保障人權這才是討論公共政策應該要有的基本態度去年大選的時候台灣民眾黨的主席柯文哲在11月7號提出了政見他說代理育母要納入人工生殖法"},{"start":13626.363,"end":13648.624,"text":"這是我們台灣民眾黨的政見我們向來的習慣是我們開出了支票我們就會履行所以陳昭志委員他秉持他一貫的信念他也提出了修法的草案柯文哲主席在11月7號宣布了以後馬上看到11月8號我們衛福部"},{"start":13650.545,"end":13670.012,"text":"馬上緊跟著宣誓代理育母要納入人工生殖法的修法。部長,您認為前任的部長在去年宣誓說代理育母要納入人工生殖法的修法,他是在侵害我們女性的權益嗎?"},{"start":13671.891,"end":13688.624,"text":"我想謝前部長是一個婦產科醫師也是一個很有愛心的醫師我相信他是站在怎麼樣來關心更多人民的心情來這樣的一個作為好,從去年"},{"start":13689.741,"end":13715.391,"text":"我們就延續到了今年嘛今年五月這個是由衛福部預告的草案這不是台灣民眾黨預告的草案我們的衛福部預告的草案說了什麼他說為了讓無子宮因子宮與免疫疾病導致懷孕或分娩將產生嚴重危害及生命安全的婦女以及我們同性婚姻的朋友們能夠"},{"start":13718.587,"end":13745.103,"text":"借由代孕生殖技術的協助達到生育子女的目的,保障他的家庭權,維護代理育母、代孕生殖子女及委託方三方的權益。這個是衛福部所公告的草案嗎?是,在5月14號公告的。衛福部當初在公告這個草案的時候,是為了要侵害我們女性朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":13747.268,"end":13760.196,"text":"當然不是這樣的目的啦是希望去解決去幫忙更多的因為我覺得齁在討論這麼嚴肅的公共政策的議題的時候我們在心態上面啊要趨於和緩"},{"start":13761.994,"end":13764.417,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．審查��"},{"start":13777.353,"end":13798.397,"text":"我們整個歷程看下來整個社會都知道這是個嚴肅的問題我們要保護小孩子也要保護女性也要兼顧其他真的沒有辦法有生育能力的國人同胞大家共同的權益在這樣子的基礎上12月的時候"},{"start":13800.126,"end":13816.324,"text":"讓大家真的蠻詫異的我們的國建署署長早上才說沒有預設立場到了下午馬上改口說要脫鉤處理這個政策急轉彎的大轉折部長到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":13817.429,"end":13837.956,"text":"是的,我還是要跟委員報告,那個其實在公告預告以後就聽到很多當然反對的聲音,那所以我們在部裡面其實一直在研議,沒有說急轉彎,但是我們還是希望原來用公告的版一直討論,繼續討論,那到最後的確是發現"},{"start":13841.437,"end":13844.259,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13859.151,"end":13864.84,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具⋯⋯"},{"start":13874.093,"end":13896.345,"text":"站在一屆的看法,事實上大家是希望說有好的配套措施以後能夠趕快進行,否則的話真的遙遙無期啊,不曉得要拖到什麼時候啊。我希望這一方的聲音,衛福部也能夠聽到,不要有任何的預設立場。"},{"start":13898.444,"end":13923.358,"text":"因為陳美洲醫師是我的學生,我也了解他在不印證方面幫忙我。他是不印證醫學會的理事長。在不印證方面也幫我們在試管、嬰兒方面貢獻非常的多。當然在婦產科醫學會方面就有比較中立討論的聲音。所以我們都會聽所有的開放的"},{"start":13924.258,"end":13928.563,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13948.716,"end":13958.79,"text":"這個都他說的啦我字都全部標起來了我不會去隨便捏造人家沒有說的話啦好沒有關係啦最後一點時間我提醒部長一件事喔"},{"start":13959.972,"end":13982.607,"text":"昨天我問你,針對有關於國外醫科牙醫學歷的採認你在這邊承諾我會維持2017年最嚴格的標準你還記得嗎?是的,絕對記得但今天本土小牙醫聯盟又開記者會了說你們現在的醫師法施行細則大開後門"},{"start":13985.182,"end":14000.042,"text":"大開後門跟你當初所講的維持最嚴格的標準他們認為是一場騙局啊你有沒有什麼話想說?報告委員這個部分吼我們他的確在之前有這樣的疑惑也畫了很多重點"},{"start":14000.863,"end":14023.033,"text":"那我們有一次左院長請他們大家還有幾個代表到來談那當時有針對這個細則我想意思是有很做很詳細的一個跟他解釋那如果說未來還有真的覺得不放心的地方今天早上10點開記者會我從頭到尾都聽完了所以你講的是跟人家解釋的很清楚是發生在什麼時候"},{"start":14024.926,"end":14039.143,"text":"那沒關係那如果說他們的這個因為我們覺得已經用最嚴格的如果他們還覺得不夠周全那我們可以再來努力再來修改都沒關係我這樣講啦就是說保障所有"},{"start":14040.643,"end":14044.845,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14055.974,"end":14076.23,"text":"他們如果所提出來的質疑衛福部覺得有誤會的就要去說明清楚但是如果真的有問題的恐怕衛福部也要重新的再斟酌啊是的沒問題一定這樣做OK好謝謝好謝委員好謝謝黃委員謝謝部長繼續由楊瓊英委員執行我們在林宜瑾委員執行完畢後休息20分鐘吃便當"},{"start":14088.015,"end":14090.218,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":14095.549,"end":14117.368,"text":"委員好部長好從你當醫師從你當立法委員到現在部長我相信人工生殖法的修法包括了代孕的議題討論了將近30年也可以表示說臺灣這個民主國家在整個重大議題的時候我們要充分的討論所以因此政府"},{"start":14118.029,"end":14136.186,"text":"檢討論點﹖"},{"start":14136.306,"end":14158.992,"text":"一定要的。一定要的。好,我們終於有這個共識,但是我們看到在這30年,快要30年的當中,那麼也包括做過了三次的全國民調,兩次的公民會議,不管是在2004年,或許這兩次的公民會議,大家各方都充分的去討論,充分的去討論。"},{"start":14160.952,"end":14175.676,"text":"所以主張代理育母納入人工生殖法的草案裡頭包括了當時擔任立法委員的賴清德先生現在的總統他也在2002年的時候也提案修法他當時醫學科技的進步應該要想"},{"start":14183.118,"end":14197.274,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第13次"},{"start":14197.915,"end":14222.405,"text":"包括委員我相信那個我也當過幾年的立委我相信從不管是當醫師或你有剛有提到感謝您來肯定那那個從醫師到立委我們我永遠相信當時所提案的任何一個委員或提出建議的都是真的都是希望都是非常"},{"start":14223.345,"end":14227.727,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":14239.312,"end":14256.606,"text":"好,你所說的非常溫馨,那本席要請教,因為我們國會現在經過了那麼多的討論,那現在正要審查的來討論,我們的英明的召集人來排定這個議程,那可是國建署"},{"start":14257.307,"end":14265.314,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14282.068,"end":14295.015,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件及立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工"},{"start":14296.701,"end":14313.862,"text":"報告員,我想我們在今年的5月14號公告以後,預告以後,就收到了大概600多則的意見,基本上有八成都是反對代理運母,但是因為公告的內容...反對代理運母八成二?"},{"start":14316.265,"end":14335.325,"text":"大概我們也很希望原來的公告預告的法能夠再多做討論所以一直在研議研議那其實已經他是原來是用專章所以我們很早就有說把把這個部分因為比較爭議把它延後再來處理的版本很早就所以其實是沒有"},{"start":14336.326,"end":14355.033,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案�"},{"start":14365.219,"end":14388.595,"text":"我們到最後因為我們的召委已經排了審查所以衛福部還是要表達呈現一個立場那請教你說你沒有提轉彎你在什麼時候決定脫鉤決定脫鉤在什麼時候因為你說每一個人提案都很好我也不希望說應該有幾個禮拜前大家都民主國家本來就是有自己的立場幾個禮拜前應該就有決定脫鉤的立場什麼時候"},{"start":14393.583,"end":14416.354,"text":"應該幾個禮拜前的幾次的因為我們是一直在部裡面一直在討論討論要怎麼辦這樣子那個你現在告訴我們的是說你幾個禮拜前就已經確定要脫鉤我們就有討論要脫鉤的一個理程一個設計啦因為條文總是要去分開脫鉤的設計在什麼時候決定在政府部門應該有應該有三個禮拜之前三個禮拜之前就已經決定是脫鉤脫鉤的一個方向來進行了"},{"start":14421.833,"end":14449.989,"text":"因為當時想說還在討論的過程當中但是因為我們今天排了審查我想衛福部還是要有一個立場來論述那你這樣子說是打臉國建署喔因為國建署在當天說的他沒有他早上還說沒有預設立場下午才說是透過可是現在部長你告訴我們的是三個禮拜前就已經政策方向是要脫鉤是不是"},{"start":14451.75,"end":14460.904,"text":"我想吳市長當時的媒體的一個呈現只是說我們本來就一直在走程序請教您現在所說的行政院也知道你要決定是脫鉤嗎?"},{"start":14467.667,"end":14480.577,"text":"你這個三個禮拜前決定這個方向,那行政院你有沒有報告給行政院長這麼重大的法案?所以我們當然有報告,有跟行政院說明。就你在三個禮拜前決定要脫鉤之後有跟行政院報告?"},{"start":14496.689,"end":14519.657,"text":"有給行政院報告,那行政院的方向也跟你的方向是一樣的嗎?因為行政院當然是尊重我們專業的一個立場。很多人希望行政院要有行政院版本,什麼時候會出來?行政院版本我們現在完成以後就會送姓評會。"},{"start":14525.685,"end":14538.43,"text":"在縣北影響評估,那我們預計看看能不能12月底能夠送到行政院預計你們要在12月底送到行政院去,那所以這個會期是來不及囉?這個會期會來不及囉?我想我們已經"},{"start":14547.853,"end":14566.702,"text":"拜託做得最好嘛,所以就是徵請大家的意見,來一直在討論討論,那還要有一定的程序。當然,這就是民主的機制,各方意見都要進來,但是我們政府還是要有你的一個基本點。就是說我預估什麼時候行政院版會送到立法院來。"},{"start":14569.015,"end":14597.874,"text":"你現在給我一個答案叫12月底12月底你的會送到行政院嗎?是不是?從蠻早以前就一直...不是,部長我們來討論一下也就是說各方的意見我們都給予尊重但是一個就是讓需要者他有方向而且小孩的保護是很重要那接下來我們討論到的也就是說在這個月12月底你衛福部的版本會送到行政院"},{"start":14598.575,"end":14601.058,"text":"那行政院大概什麼時候會送到立法院來呢?"},{"start":14606.699,"end":14633.588,"text":"當然這個要看行政院審查的進度。你剛剛不是說你給行政院報告了嗎?你給行政院報告了,他尊重你的專業啊。那是大方向,但是整個條文的細節當然是要討論,要把它設計得更完整嘛,然後才能送出去。那你自己預估呢?這個當然流程就必須照行政的流程走。那部長在你的預估呢?你大概什麼時候行政院本會送到立法院來呢?"},{"start":14637.168,"end":14657.404,"text":"因為行政院的流程說實在我也不敢說把握。因為他們也是要先審查嘛。不然我們一名的召集人他呢是非常的用心讓大家可以好好的來討論。好,有任何的進度我想我隨時跟召委這邊報告。那我希望要知道啊。"},{"start":14659.537,"end":14678.38,"text":"我希望本席希望要知道啊也跟委員楊偉這邊報告不是就報告我們希望你要努力因為大家這麼重大的法案各自大家都有立場其實真的是真的是非常努力啦開了那麼多場專家會我想很多包括陳慶輝委員都說他也都被"},{"start":14678.96,"end":14680.101,"text":"等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":14695.054,"end":14718.44,"text":"一定審慎,我們勇於承擔,然後審慎來進行。我們還是一樣一個原則,就是讓有需要的人他有所方向。第二個是立他,而且是要保護小孩為原則。我們希望這個進度可以聽到你的進度。我們不但要保護小孩,也要保護弱勢。所以要去了解到真正,今天大家談論了很多真正寶貴的意見,我們都會來檢驗。謝謝委員。謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝部長。"},{"start":14724.742,"end":14749.561,"text":"接下來我們請鍾佳斌委員質詢。主席、在場委員先進。列席的政府監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請邱部長。我們等一下那個。委員好。等一下。"},{"start":14752.068,"end":14777.454,"text":"來部長,這個為什麼要擔接出來,人工生殖法競速完成審議,你同意嗎?支持嗎?我當然支持有共識的趕快完成審議。接下來你就等於回答第二句了,求同存異,代理孕母脫鉤處理。好,那就是脫人工生殖跟代理孕母到底什麼關係我們來看。請問一下部長,人工生殖就是等於代理孕母?"},{"start":14779.076,"end":14798.768,"text":"人工生殖法解決的問題是不是就等於代理孕母所能解決的問題?這應該不太一樣。不太一樣嘛。人工生殖,好那我再問一個更核心的,你認為生育是不是天賦人權?生育是嘛。是天賦人權嗎?是自己的身體權嘛。是是。生育嘛。是。你也知道"},{"start":14799.528,"end":14817.157,"text":"我們過去也感謝你過去到屏東來看我,選舉的時候你知道我們這區域的位,雖然是做立法委員,跟電影的面財差不多,齋氣算很酸啦,但不是算立董房啦。我們常常會說一句話啦,就是說祝新郎新娘百年好合,早生貴子。你怎麼會聽人家這樣說?現在很多人在說,新郎新娘我們祝你早生貴子,我們都很尊重。"},{"start":14826.124,"end":14854.013,"text":"我們會問什麼?新郎說:「你有暗算要生幾個?貼臉、老伯、老婦、那個長男長女也跟你問一下。」新郎都會說:「這要看他的意思。」所以我們後來會問什麼?問新娘:「你有暗算要貼臉的家庭,生幾個嗎?」這什麼意思?在生育這件事情上呢,女性才是主導者,你同意嗎?你老生幾個是你家庭還是你母家庭的?當然是我母家庭。是嘛!"},{"start":14855.515,"end":14876.861,"text":"所以人工生殖可能遇到的問題男女性都有對不對但是代理孕母真的完完全全是以女性的權利為核心是不是這樣子那如果有人主張說我們要讓人工生殖來解決一些因為沒辦法自然受孕的一些需求那他需要用人工生殖你支持嘛對吧"},{"start":14878.408,"end":14884.696,"text":"但是說代理運母這個欸好像大家有不同意見喔我們暫時脫鉤你認為這是政治問題嗎?什麼叫政治問題?"},{"start":14888.084,"end":14912.53,"text":"整組人的嘛,是不是這樣?我想這個不是政治問題,這是牽涉到很多倫理,很多我們要堅持的價值。好,那我們往下看啦。好啦,剛剛又有委員說啊,說這個部長啊,你說到執政黨、民進黨的壓力啦,本來以前民進黨也是支持待遇運動啦,現在急轉彎啦,所以你跟著急轉彎,差點翻車,有嗎?我們看一下。"},{"start":14914.369,"end":14942.399,"text":"現在這些版本只要是民進黨的委員有沒有代孕通通沒有民進黨的委員的提案立場很一致從頭到尾從過去到現在都沒有支持代理孕母你覺得什麼原因你猜猜看為什麼民進黨都而且毫無疑問的我看提案委員好像沒有看到男性只有這個郭國文搞不清楚自己性別跑去連署黃秀芳的"},{"start":14944.352,"end":14961.929,"text":"為什麼?為什麼?我們兩個都是男性,我們來討論這個議題有點尷尬,為什麼你們都反對?來啦,我再詢問一個問題啦齁。生育是天賦人權,但是婚跟育有必然相關嗎?"},{"start":14963.564,"end":14980.347,"text":"但現在去解除,阿尊說新娘大肚子,你會這樣講嗎?以前都不敢講啊,以前都是婚紗弄到蓬蓬啊,還有呢,有時候司儀還會開玩笑,誒,走下去洗衣服,新郎,看好好勒,有新啊,在這裡就轟轟大笑。"},{"start":14981.193,"end":15003.403,"text":"現在不一樣啦!現在如果說是什麼?我們遇到這種主持喜宴的時候喔!相依鄰盟喔!甚至有時候新郎新娘結婚啊!伴郎是自備啊!花童是自備啊!你有對得很堅強嗎?現在現代社會,我們說多子多孫多夫妻都沉浮了過去了。我們現在婚姻跟生育有必然要在一起嗎?沒有結婚怎麼會有孩子啊?你會接受嗎?"},{"start":15009.526,"end":15011.979,"text":"三、委員黃捷等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。arnt"},{"start":15021.846,"end":15038.539,"text":"你會接受嗎?如果你自己的家長你可以接受因為我沒有女兒啦我不知道你有沒有女兒啦但我相信現在社會婚育是脫鉤的往下看所以現在我們看到人工生殖法為什麼這要討論為什麼要趕快通過"},{"start":15040.541,"end":15055.541,"text":"因為我們婚姻已經平權了,但是人工生殖法還寫什麼?夫妻。現在婚姻平權,我們要什麼名詞要定義才正確?是不是要配偶?是不是這樣?是不是這樣?不一定吧?所以人工生殖法這第一條要修正嗎?"},{"start":15058.979,"end":15085.088,"text":"配偶嘛,配偶來取代夫妻你支不支持?當然要修正草案。對嘛,這個要符合我們法制一致命要再往下一條,再往下一個。另外呢,其實啊,婚育脫鉤,其實因為懷孕的是女性,是母體。居然我們看到有個中國女企業家,欸她就要求小孩啊,她就有了四個欸。企業家,女性企業家生小孩有人會問她說你結婚了沒有嗎?寶丁,你有聽人家說嗎?"},{"start":15087.233,"end":15109.287,"text":"以前有一個跟高鐵有關的一個大型的工程公司的一個董事長,他也是一樣啊,他有小孩啊,你有跟他問說你嫁娼沒有,你有這樣問嗎?不會嘛,沒理由嘛,你問這種啊,是不是這樣?好,但是問題是為什麼代理運母,大家這麼多人反對或有爭議。我先問你,部長你喝過咖啡嗎?你喝過麝香貓咖啡嗎?"},{"start":15111.448,"end":15136.597,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立"},{"start":15140.315,"end":15161.223,"text":"我平時沒吃過我都吃過松露口味冰淇淋而已,我不吃過松露。色香貓咖啡很珍惜,自然取得非常難得,我們愛好咖啡的人,假設都喜歡。但是後來我看了之後都很發現說,喔!色香貓咖啡不可以泡菜喝,他剛剛什麼原因?因為現在六大國家知道色香貓咖啡很流行啊,他把色香貓抓來關在籠子裡。"},{"start":15163.274,"end":15187.367,"text":"每天強迫他吃咖啡豆,他自然吃飽了脹脹的就排出來嘛。那你就會這樣排出來的色香貓咖啡豆,你忍心吃嗎?有沒有對色香貓有身體上的影響?不自然。所以說,連動物權我們都要維護了。所以為什麼色香貓咖啡豆會產生這樣的一個情況呢?因為商業化。"},{"start":15188.499,"end":15212.836,"text":"如果只是一個自然的環境,原始部落的人檢視到色香貓咖啡豆自然排移的,那很自然。但是為了廣大的商業市場需求,他去捕捉了色香貓,強迫他產出,這就是商業化的後果。否則你知道我這樣拐了一個大彎,你知道為什麼代理孕母引起女權、婦女權益、重視婦女權益者的一些疑慮了吧?"},{"start":15213.871,"end":15243.072,"text":"再下一頁。你還知道嗎?了解齁?所以我今天呢不是建議你以後不要喝社鄉貓咖啡我還建議你啊省慎的去看一下這麼多版本的人工生殖法為什麼民進黨委員所提出的沒有代理運母因為三個原因第一生育是天賦人權第二婚育是脫鉤第三不可以用商業化的方式造成人權的侵害你同意嗎?"},{"start":15246.226,"end":15271.334,"text":"我再講一次齁生育是天賦人權你同意嗎?同意我們人工生殖法透過技術的改變解決這個需求你同意嗎?同意那婚育是可以脫鉤處理的你同意嗎?我們人工生殖法有沒有限制在婚姻關係裡面才可以從事?有沒有規定?沒有嘛但是最後我們就擔心的是什麼?這樣的一個醫學技術如果被商業化"},{"start":15272.825,"end":15287.117,"text":"我再問一下,抱歉,在我村區裡面,我有個村民過去都要洗身,一段時間沒看到,回來氣勢很好,問說你最近氣什麼?他說出國渡假,你怎麼去哪裡渡假?我們事務委員都知道,他去對面渡假,幾個月後換一個郵寄回來。這種事情,我們在社會裡面都知道他的痛苦,他的無奈。"},{"start":15301.277,"end":15323.799,"text":"但是他為什麼沒有在國內做?因為國內的器官移植啊,是很嚴格的規定。我有一個很認識的好朋友,年事已高,比我年紀還大的媽媽,為了自己的孩子,為了自己的老公,我忘了是老公還是孩子,我真的忘記了齁,但是都很重要的一個人,他把他的腎捐給他。那是親人之間的互助。一旦商業化,你覺得會不會有風險?"},{"start":15327.117,"end":15349.529,"text":"會不會有風險?當然會有風險所以說嘛我們沒有反對任何可能性但是人工生殖既然急迫需要解決一些人的問題但是不能解決所有人的所有問題是不是我們人工生殖法繼續推進但是有商業化把母體商業化風險的這個代理孕母我們暫時的求同存異脫鉤處理你支持嗎?"},{"start":15350.899,"end":15351.179,"text":"謝主席,有請邱部長"},{"start":15384.284,"end":15400.843,"text":"委員黃邱部長辛苦我想今天我們討論人工生殖法那我們期待喔真的能這個法能趕快通過那前提就是說我們為了單身女性跟女同志配偶的生育權那我想這個是相當重要那當然大家談到代理孕母"},{"start":15403.666,"end":15428.325,"text":"那因為代理育母是一項牽涉到生命安全跟醫療福利還有倫理問題的制度所以這個跟單身女性跟女同志配偶的生育權所考量的問題其實還有一段距離所以我覺得脫鉤真的對兩邊都是好事那我們當然修法的過程當然就是一步一步來嘛"},{"start":15429.466,"end":15456.368,"text":"在遇到這個代理孕母有爭議的部分當然就是要謹慎來思考看怎麼樣來尋求解方我覺得這才是我們負責任的做法所以也要全方面的考量那我們剛剛很多委員都提到代理孕母的制度我覺得最重要的癥結點就是說我們不能忽視那頭房間裡的大象怎麼說因為這個就是"},{"start":15457.268,"end":15460.811,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":15482.965,"end":15505.756,"text":"這必須要好好被思考跟來處理另外我們要考量什麼叫做女性同意擔任代理孕母我們想19世紀馬克思在資本論他就有描述童工的處境他說當時的工廠主宣稱童工都是自願犧牲他的休息跟玩耍甚至他的吃飯時間自願在廠房來擔任這個"},{"start":15510.098,"end":15533.337,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案,但我們很明顯知道這種說法在本質上它就是沒有在顧慮到人的處境所以在21世紀的現在的我們應該不能步上這個無視人的這種後塵那上一次的質詢我就有提到我今天再講一次代理孕母從懷孕到生產的過程它其實就是一個勞動的過程"},{"start":15535.745,"end":15550.834,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":15563.641,"end":15579.63,"text":"那一個勞動基準法在臺灣實施那麼久為什麼還有這些血汗、高工時、過勞這些代名詞形容臺灣的勞動現場就是說這一部法律也未必能保障所有臺灣勞動者的這個勞動權益更何況我們未來如果代理孕母的產生它是一個近10個月不分昼夜高工時、高強度、高風險的一個勞動過程那這樣的勞動權益誰要來顧"},{"start":15592.618,"end":15609.126,"text":"所以我想說這個都是一個非常堅設的一個兼具的一個工程一個兼具的課題所以這個都要好好的思考所以代理運母的勞動我想這個也是要來思考部長你覺得我這樣說有沒有道理是是你先這樣是"},{"start":15610.206,"end":15625.554,"text":"對,那所以我覺得代理孕母既然我們要思考層面那麼多那我們既然也希望人工生殖法可以慢慢推進包括單身的女性或者是女同志所以我覺得這部分我們如果說因為代理孕母需要比較"},{"start":15626.414,"end":15631.958,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 條文修正草案 案件 條文修正草案 案件 條文修正草案 案件 條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":15645.779,"end":15647.6,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案 》案。"},{"start":15662.008,"end":15671.491,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":15690.798,"end":15692.699,"text":"謝謝林委員、謝謝部長。我們現在休息20分鐘。"},{"start":15719.309,"end":15732.562,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林"},{"start":15739.243,"end":15749.599,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委"},{"start":15771.493,"end":15771.954,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員"},{"start":15846.391,"end":15846.786,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員"},{"start":15941.22,"end":15941.613,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19屆第2會期社會福利及法"},{"start":15990.64,"end":15991.118,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案﹑事由�"},{"start":17135.95,"end":17139.572,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會。我們請王正熙委員質詢。謝謝主席。那我們再請邱部長。"},{"start":17156.763,"end":17159.764,"text":"陳菁徽等22人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案。」案。"},{"start":17182.09,"end":17184.612,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":17202.101,"end":17226.591,"text":"其實大家也一直在說賴清德當時候的委員在2002年的時候第5屆第一會期他那時候也擔任召委所以他們提出那個人工生殖法草案的過程裡面也是有非常多的討論跟在處理當中後來為什麼會針對這個人工生殖法得到一個最後的結論"},{"start":17228.391,"end":17254.627,"text":"的確那個時候包括賴醫師還有簡兆棟醫師這都是我們的前輩很可惜簡兆棟醫師是剛好最近他過世了非常可惜他們是同意的同意的理由是因為他們認為醫學科技進步到現在那個當時應該要讓想瘦想孕但身體不允許的女性有代理孕母這種選擇方式"},{"start":17256.908,"end":17270.78,"text":"但是同時那個時候也是另外一個高明健醫師他是個神尖外科醫師他代表親民黨另外國民黨的梁立煌立委他們都持相位保守的一個態度"},{"start":17271.664,"end":17295.813,"text":"他們的保守態度並不是說認為這個在技術上的問題而是很擔心如果草率通過的話可能會導致代理孕母犯難衝擊原來的夫妻關係因為畢竟嬰兒是有生命的不像商品賣掉就沒事了我想跟我們今天討論的過程應該是還是有一些類似"},{"start":17296.753,"end":17319.364,"text":"所以最後的結果就是他在提案三年以後就因為這個相關的關係法案主要都是為了要確保不孕者與人工生殖子女的權益將提出新版本那時候賴總統賴清德委員是這樣講那刪除原版有關代理孕母的章節那時候行政院也準備要針對代理"},{"start":17320.544,"end":17345.336,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。因為這樣的努力跟後來經過大家的這些折衝以後終於這個2007年三讀通過沒有包含代理孕母的人工生殖法這個是今天今天是12月3號經濟日報一個報導我想這樣相對可以讓大家更理解雖然賴總統"},{"start":17346.917,"end":17373.648,"text":"在那個時候是非常認同人工生殖法裡面如果有相關的代孕的話是有幫助需要的有需求者可是也因為有太多不同的想法跟意見所以經過處理以後人工生殖法那時候就沒有包含這個代理孕母的部分所以我想透過這個報導大家也可以比較清楚知道"},{"start":17374.668,"end":17395.817,"text":"在總統並沒有改變他的意見他只是因為各種處理的需求之下我們現在看到了這個結果那從這邊來出發我們來了解為什麼為什麼我們會認為需要透過我們針對於婦女懷孕到生產到胎兒當中有多少風險"},{"start":17397.017,"end":17419.643,"text":"大家應該不要以為懷孕生產是很自然很低風險的一個對於要當媽媽的人還是需要注意這樣的風險對於社會來講他也要注意到生產生一個寶寶出來不是那麼容易那這個風險到底有多高"},{"start":17420.623,"end":17439.959,"text":"我們可以看到到2021年那一年的新生兒死亡人數是425人每千位的活產裡面死亡率是2.7為了要懷一個寶寶要生產當年的孕婦死亡22人每死亡活產就有14位"},{"start":17440.499,"end":17466.017,"text":"那這樣的成績跟全球比起來到底好不好?其實如果跟OECD國家比較起來我們真的是有很大需要進步的空間因為我們跟日本跟韓國比起來這個數字呢都是會讓我們心驚膽跳人數看起來好像不多可是比例我們應該可以讓它更改善這是孕婦死亡的部分"},{"start":17466.617,"end":17468.619,"text":"在科學上很難做到零死亡,我們都理解。可是如果其他國家可以那麼好,那台灣我們可以怎麼做會比較好呢?"},{"start":17491.059,"end":17510.17,"text":"在請部長回答之前我們先了解一下人工生殖出來的這些寶寶們他們其實有一些是具有人工缺陷人工造成了一些身體或體狀上的問題那這個萬一是代理孕母生下來以後其實前面的委員也都有"},{"start":17511.13,"end":17530.335,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人"},{"start":17538.782,"end":17565.269,"text":"我想這個就是我們現在的一個健康數據裡面我們醫界的一個痛點也是我們一直想要努力的在健康台灣裡面也特別針對新生偶死亡率的一個降低來做一個非常大的重要的目標我想這個從運期到新生偶的團隊"},{"start":17567.21,"end":17572.215,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":17582.244,"end":17598.204,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院等19人擬具:「"},{"start":17598.985,"end":17626.8,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．司法及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法�"},{"start":17628.661,"end":17647.41,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委"},{"start":17654.053,"end":17671.557,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文�"},{"start":17682.4,"end":17691.885,"text":"有關於代理孕母入法其實還有三個地方要非常注意的包括說我們剛剛有看到台灣目前不管是"},{"start":17693.399,"end":17719.62,"text":"自然生產或者是透過人工生殖法所生出來的這些寶寶們他們的醫療跟健康風險目前似乎是無法排除的那如果無法排除的話那萬一代理孕母又入法那從人權、從倫理還有法律的角度那我們可以允許健康風險轉嫁到另外一位他要幫人家做一個代理孕母的這些"},{"start":17721.201,"end":17725.507,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具"},{"start":17730.606,"end":17734.648,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":17752.779,"end":17770.301,"text":"好,這也是大家所擔心的啦齁,那我想我們未來齁,在第二階段的來處理這個部分的時候,會把這些問題,不管是在它的位階,或者它的內容,做更周全的討論跟共識。是。"},{"start":17771.862,"end":17797.405,"text":"所以如果能夠讓已經有很好共識而且基本上那風險相對是可以接受的我們希望他能夠在這個可以討論之下大家共同來確立那如果是真的非常非常多的這些不同意見的話我想真的大家要三思那最後其實要麻煩陸理面要來加強對代理業母嬰兒風險的研究我們剛剛看到的是"},{"start":17798.166,"end":17819.015,"text":"一般的這些懷孕的過程裡面不管是死亡率或者是這個新生兒的這些問題那對於代理孕母他有多少風險也許當然我們自己台灣沒有相關的資料可是國際上應該有一些資料可以當參考那今年的在6月25號報導者他們就有報導相關的經驗給大家做參考"},{"start":17823.478,"end":17847.311,"text":"另外荷蘭針對於代理孕母10年的經驗裡面他們是立他的這種代理孕母之下他們研究發現說代理孕母跟一般的這個來孕的過程其實真的風險是不一樣的所以這些資訊希望透過部裡面不管是要自行研究或委託專家學者來做研究也希望讓這個資訊能夠讓更多的民眾可以知悉"},{"start":17848.211,"end":17856.576,"text":"好的,我們在這方面再收集更多的資料。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝王委員,謝謝。謝謝王委員,謝謝部長。那接下來我們請陳培宇委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。那我想要直接請國建署署長。"},{"start":17875.851,"end":17903.842,"text":"好,署長你好喔從今天早上到現在非常多的委員都在關心代理孕母那你們的說法一再的調整但是我其實今天因為您之前的說法或者是很多委員也都幫您說說你們召開了非常多的專家學者會議開了無數場那我現在就幫你把你們所預告的人工生殖法裡面我們辦公室認為你們沒有顧慮到的部分告訴你"},{"start":17904.442,"end":17919.074,"text":"請你回答我你們到底有沒有針對我們等一下要說的真的做過研究來下一頁這是你們的預告草案裡面你們自己提到有一個部分叫做瘦數異性伴侶你們開了一個新的可能性"},{"start":17919.694,"end":17937.955,"text":"我看來你們這是想要保障所有女性生育自主權我認為這是很前進的想法可是我們回到法律的落實層面如同剛剛王振旭醫師也說了很多的配套我們看不見可能性我們甚至擔心你們根本沒有想到可能會產生的問題"},{"start":17940.417,"end":17954.561,"text":"現在的大家都關注女同性配偶關注未婚女性可是你們瘦素異性伴侶你說具有親密性排他性同才共居的未婚異性伴侶也可以適用人工生殖技術生育子女這是你們寫的對不對對嗎署長是好署長那我們就來聊一聊什麼叫做瘦素異性伴侶"},{"start":17963.743,"end":17982.338,"text":"你認為你們當時為什麼把它寫進去?那我想問你一個問題,如果今天有伴侶的未婚女性,她選擇去做一個公證,叫做我跟我的伴侶叫做授訴異性伴侶,可是我可不可以選擇不要用我伴侶的金子,然後我跑去登記我要做人工生殖,然後我就是選擇用未婚女性的名義,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":17986.033,"end":18009.41,"text":"以憲政的法規規定的話那麼監證者必須是匿名那我們在這裡的時候設計是監證者他有同意或匿名兩種方式你還是沒有回答我啊我跟我的伴侶並沒有去法律上登記結婚我們跑去做一個公證就是你們這裡提供的叫授書異性伴侶所以我並不知道授書異性伴侶的女性"},{"start":18010.171,"end":18027.831,"text":"在這個關係當中的女性我選擇不要用我伴侶的金子我選擇用捐贈者的金子可不可以就是我的投影片右邊我幫你框起來的第二條他不使用異性伴侶的金子這可不可以你沒有辦法具體的回答再來一個更可怕的事情是這個異性伴侶的關係算不算是一種"},{"start":18028.411,"end":18029.272,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":18051.027,"end":18072.384,"text":"如果我跟我的異性伴侶只有公正認定我們兩個叫做異性伴侶但是如果有一天我們兩個親密關係消滅的時候我們的親權要如何分配相關民法、親屬還有繼承法規範的部分我們現在完全看不到你們任何說法所以我不知道你的專家學者會議裡面有沒有討論過這件事情或是法務部有沒有跟你們提醒過這件事情"},{"start":18075.323,"end":18102.053,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們在討論裡面其實都有討論到所以你們會如何確定我剛剛講的所以當你們真的要讓這個法就這樣通過快速炒出來通過的時候請問你有考慮到我想的這些問題嗎?它跟民法之間的關係呢?所以到底是要保障女子的生育權益還是要保障兒少最佳利益?我看不出來謝謝委員當初預告版裡面的確有你寫的這些問題"},{"start":18103.789,"end":18118.28,"text":"這是你寫的,不是我寫的。的確有上面所寫的、顯示的這些問題。好,那我再告訴你,還有另外一個問題,應該沒有什麼人發現,我非常謝謝我的辦公室同仁。下一個。在《民法》裡面,在這個投影片的右手邊是《民法》。《民法》裡面有講到"},{"start":18119.261,"end":18146.563,"text":"如果一旦先生可以證明他的同意是受到詐欺或脅迫可以發現被詐欺或脅迫終止後6個月提起否認之處受到詐欺者自子女出生之日滿3年不得為之可是回到你們的人工生殖法你們公布的人工生殖法裡面把民法92條這條拿掉了本條不適用喔所以按照你們衛福部現在的修法議職裡面如果這個修法通過了即便當事人被騙或被迫成是人工生殖都得履行到底嗎?"},{"start":18148.803,"end":18154.126,"text":"你直接把民法92條說不適用欸,你們跟法務部討論過了嗎?你們確定這樣不會有問題嗎?再往下。好,再往下喔。呃,這個胚胎這個部分我們來看一下右手邊。瘦素配偶A是綠色圈圈,他們作為人工生殖後產生胚胎α,瘦素配偶B這是橘色的,我問你有沒有植入錯誤的可能性?"},{"start":18173.188,"end":18191.71,"text":"你們有沒有研究相關案例?如果有植入錯誤的胚胎被植入當事人體內這樣的親子關係又要如何處理?現行的法規可以處理嗎?衛福部預告草案的內容可以處理嗎?這種情況被植入胚胎的受孕婦女她跟這個受孕婦女完全沒有血緣關係而是別人的胚胎那這樣不就是另外一種待遇了嗎?"},{"start":18192.651,"end":18209.543,"text":"那這個部分你們衛福部有沒有解方?你們有沒有研究過國外的相關案例?署長我跟你說在美國就有相關案例發生2003年的時候一對白人夫妻跟黑人夫妻他們被措職了胚胎結果一對白人夫妻他們就生出雙胞胎一個是白人寶寶一個是黑人寶寶"},{"start":18211.465,"end":18224.371,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":18241.46,"end":18244.362,"text":"還是你們已經都準備好配套了?我們不用擔心。有關剛剛提到的第一個問題的確在預告版裡面我剛剛提到有,但是我們最後經過討論那個條文我們後來是會刪掉的。為什麼要刪掉?剛剛提到的我們就發現如同這個委員所說的。那還有這個你們把民法92條也拔掉這個部分你們覺得都沒問題嗎?"},{"start":18271.057,"end":18272.523,"text":"我只是要提醒你有這麼多這麼多的問題"},{"start":18276.926,"end":18301.221,"text":"我只是要提醒你,連我現在問的這些問題你都沒有辦法回答我,那如果真的出事了怎麼辦?當你們把子女最佳利益跟婦女生育自主的部分,如果有發生衝突,我認為其實有很多很多的事情都還需要細緻的討論。所以我自己才會堅決反對,如果在現行的人工生殖法修法過程,我們可以先把女同志還有單身女性的部分先放入,是不是可以讓"},{"start":18301.661,"end":18316.105,"text":"真的有需要的人趕快使用到相關法規範的福利跟照顧,但是真的有那麼多爭議跟法規範都還沒有辦法解決的問題,我們是不是應該後續再來處理?目前已經決定透過了。好,謝謝署長正面的回應,謝謝。謝謝,謝謝陳委員,謝謝署長。那,劉建國要來。來,我們請劉建國委員質詢。"},{"start":18336.004,"end":18360.698,"text":"好,謝謝主席。主席辛苦。有請部長。部長,你好。部長,你也辛苦。我想今天討論這個人工生殖法的修法,各黨團體都有提出不同意見跟修法這個方向,相關的版本。關於代孕這個議題,我想台灣已經討論多年了。"},{"start":18361.584,"end":18382.663,"text":"但是在修法討論之前有一些問題還是需要做詳細的討論跟徹底的釐清所以我們希望這個制度建立能夠盡可能做到這個風險積低然後避免爭議這樣才能夠讓有需求的民眾有所保障也讓社會大眾可以去理解然後了解到整個這樣的一個"},{"start":18383.403,"end":18389.205,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":18408.578,"end":18425.828,"text":"你應該要再嗯久一點這都經過專家的會議當然是有一定的我是請教是代孕的制度有準備好了嗎代孕制度的上路是我已經做好準備啦應該這麼講嘛"},{"start":18427.878,"end":18450.376,"text":"有跟沒有嗎?因為這個都是一直在討論嘛,那我們聽到更多的聲音就覺得說還不足。是,所以等於就是還沒有準備好嘛,應該是這麼說嘛,不然就直接了當回答,因為我說問事情也都很直接了當的啦齁。那我給部長做一個,有一個資料做參考齁,你看這個螢幕裡面,這寫得非常清楚齁,這個是這個刊登在"},{"start":18451.156,"end":18477.541,"text":"內科醫學年鑑還有認證攜帶者中嚴重的孕產婦和新生兒的發病率。這個世代研究的統計資料是說研究人員發現代孕孕婦出現嚴重產婦併發症的比例為7.8然後是自然懷孕的孕婦發生率的2.3等於是高達3倍多然後幾乎是透過體外受精受孕的孕婦發生率是4.3的2倍多"},{"start":18479.381,"end":18490.507,"text":"也就是說自然懷孕的風險由夫妻來自身承擔那代孕的這個代孕者的這個懷孕的風險原受試的夫妻要如何來承擔"},{"start":18492.093,"end":18514.26,"text":"那代孕的制度如果上路,那相關的風險也應該必須要好好去嚴格的來降低嘛。看誰要配到來做降低嘛。我是簡單講這一個啦,因為這是研究的一個刊登在內科醫學連線還有相關的一些世代研究裡面的報導。這個資料你們應該有吧?"},{"start":18520.771,"end":18531.056,"text":"對,這個資料出來的時候應該我們就有相關的一些一些因應的降低的這個風險還是說元壽司的夫妻他們要來如何承擔這個我們有相關的配套嗎?"},{"start":18535.356,"end":18550.289,"text":"謝謝委員我想如何去保障跟建立代孕者的風險那當然就必須要透過相關的規範包括企業包括保險包括相關的衛教評估尤其是代孕前的評估必須要完整"},{"start":18551.03,"end":18578.177,"text":"所以這個我們都有事先的一些我們都有事先討論過有討論過了但是還沒有還沒有說一個配套的一個初稿的成型應該是沒有吧應該是說在這個法令沒有授權的時候這些我們都有討論在準備中準備中而已嘛好那今年5月我們將這個人工生殖法的草案公告那其中有關這個代孕的相關的條文這段期間當然有些委員也針對這個在代孕的提出修法"},{"start":18578.797,"end":18607.926,"text":"那我想說衛務部公告過關於這個公告過啦關於這個代孕的修法草案以及代孕制度通過以後會變成問題相關的適應細則還有這個瘦素夫妻與代孕者適合合適的進行代孕的評估方法及認定標準代孕的契約的擬定代孕的相關的專業諮詢制度代孕的相關的會用代孕者的風險管理處理代孕適宜的服務機構等細節衛務部在這方面國健署在這方面"},{"start":18609.512,"end":18633.528,"text":"攝取到的相關領域是委員已經做好準備?我們的確在準備當中,沒有錯。對,只是準備當中啦。是,因為還有,但是這個法令還沒有完成嘛,那相關的我們還在準備當中。但是,但是當你去公告這樣的一個條文出來之後,好像人家會覺得你已經準備完善了。"},{"start":18635.926,"end":18654.149,"text":"這些行政規則或者是行政的法規當然是要在法規授權之後當然我們同時也在準備中我是覺得是這樣就是說如果五月份的公告就是要朝這個方向走那這個相關的配套"},{"start":18655.497,"end":18661.001,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":18676.212,"end":18687.78,"text":"然後再來就是說我們在野黨團目前支持這個人工生殖網納度代孕很有可能這個代孕法規會三度通過那屆時外務部要怎麼處理這是現實現狀因為今天召委已經把這個安排進來了嘛就大家討論嘛你如果相關細則相關配套都要在討論中那現在"},{"start":18705.555,"end":18720.1,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19"},{"start":18728.925,"end":18735.351,"text":"你們都還沒有準備到,都還在討論中,相關配套的施行細節都還沒有一個成熟的處刑的情況之下,"},{"start":18736.818,"end":18761.514,"text":"這個法案你們怎麼會應應?所以第一個我們跟委員報告所以因為我們覺得還有很多需要釐清需要溝通所以我們的衛生部的立場是希望先在單身女性跟女同性配偶這個部分先行那後續因為比較多需要更嚴謹來討論的來配套措施的所以我們這個部分在"},{"start":18763.776,"end":18774.361,"text":"第二階段以後再來,我們再好好的來演繹這樣。我剛剛請教的問題很清楚嘛,萬一這個法案三度通過,那它就沒有侷限在哪一個部分喔?"},{"start":18775.618,"end":18799.852,"text":"所以你回答我這樣是好像這個法律是你修的當然我們尊重立法院的各位立法委員的意見那我們站在過去多年來一直研議到怎麼樣把最先進行做好的情況之下我們目前的立場是這樣也希望委員們能夠瞭解我們現在行政部門的立場"},{"start":18800.852,"end":18817.657,"text":"我現在是提出事情啦好不好我知道如果你相關的配套私營細則都還不見成熟的情況之下這個法律如果進到山土之後你會務部、國建署你們要如何去運用還是搞到最後"},{"start":18819.783,"end":18831.993,"text":"檢定零傷還沒有辦法保全這些想要代孕的對象。希望能夠溝通得更好才來處理這個法案。好,謝謝。那我請教法務部,法務部有代表吧。法務部是"},{"start":18838.902,"end":18850.542,"text":"關於人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案,有什麼看法和立場?在現有的法律上會不會有造成相關的一些衝突?"},{"start":18853.061,"end":18879.938,"text":"跟委員報告因為人工生殖子女適用民法其實是會有疑義的所以我們就比如說代理孕母是分娩者跟卵子提供者是不同的人那懷胎生產的婦女就不一定會跟所出生的子女有血緣上的聯絡那我們民法規定的設計本來是以有沒有婚姻關係所生的子女來分婚生子女或非婚生子女或者是用血緣關係來看"},{"start":18881.099,"end":18882.461,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。"},{"start":18895.371,"end":18901.935,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":18923.048,"end":18925.81,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":18936.08,"end":18963.229,"text":"懷孕問題因為其實就像收養一樣因為我們代理孕母的規範如果是在人工生殖法我們就一律都是視為視為婚生子女視為就是擬製的血清就是視為就是視為這個方式就跟我們收養一樣都是擬製的血清那這個親等不會有問題親等不會有問題親等不會有問題那現在相關的版本像各位委員的相關提幹的版本你覺得有沒有什麼大的問題的存在"},{"start":18964.693,"end":18987.301,"text":"你們應該有解釋過了嘛對不對今天你來列席大致上的委員版本還是你都還沒有看過有看過了但是那真的很複雜那真的很複雜連你都覺得很複雜了因為這涉及到很多社會倫理還有這個兒童權益還有育母的保障他們各方面還有社會的期待要怎麼滿足其實這個還蠻複雜的這很涉及專業"},{"start":18990.542,"end":19008.397,"text":"擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案 案件 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":19012.955,"end":19029.583,"text":"事實上現在如果是在國外代理育母出生的孩子他們也是看看國外的規範是怎麼樣然後再經過我們國內的法律程序可能就是用就是認領或收養或者是經過法律訴訟的程序來確認"},{"start":19031.158,"end":19049.124,"text":"你覺得現在這樣的法律修正是可以處理的?你要講清楚喔。你前面講很複雜,後面又講說可以處理。我覺得是有點衝突跟矛盾喔。請參事要小心回答。代理育母的這個問題,我們都尊重主管機關,如果準備好的話。但是這個問題牽涉很多很複雜。"},{"start":19054.285,"end":19073.441,"text":"這個一定要從長計要審慎的評估。好,你請回吧,小心啦,謝謝。好,我大致上釐清一些事情啦齁,那最後主席再給我一分鐘就好齁。這個部長你看一下頭影片。EAP,部長知道這是什麼吧?部長不知道,署長知道吧?"},{"start":19085.462,"end":19089.825,"text":"市長趕快跟...市長趕快跟...市長趕快跟...市長趕快跟...市長趕快跟...市長趕快跟...市長趕快跟..."},{"start":19103.004,"end":19132.344,"text":"我在司法、法制委員會的時候,我追了這個事情兩年,上次總統府、下次委員還有各部會,包含現在在審預算過程裡面,我都會細看員工協助方案裡面到底怎樣去編列預算,那過去連預算科目都顯示不出來,那有的部會有預算科目顯示出來之後,編的機會少之又少,所以如何去協助這個員工,我就覺得很莫名其妙。員工發生事情我們是要接住,我們不是事後才在處理嘛,對不對?好,那你們要不要看一下你們怎麼編的?"},{"start":19132.944,"end":19133.148,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":19134.393,"end":19150.336,"text":"這個審預算的時候,我絕對會再問部長,然後也問你們所屬的相關的機關,你們到底怎樣面對你們自己的同仁。你看下一頁,貴賀部是738,我不講那個預算跟實際的原理了,就直接講這樣的一個目前調查出來的。那738裡面員工生殖法部分條文是52,等於700人,700人一個人。社家屬159,12萬,也是700多。國界屬185,11萬,600人一個。食藥屬654,15萬,240。"},{"start":19163.439,"end":19179.128,"text":"Judge一、委員齊管署一、委員三、委員四、委員三、委員四、建保署兩千八百四十二位才編十六萬等於五十七人一個人。 JUDGE 你怎麼看?這樣好不好?感到?"},{"start":19179.128,"end":19180.909,"text":"這個應該要加強。你們預算都抽編了啊。預算都編了。現在是預算案。"},{"start":19190.258,"end":19210.625,"text":"這個我在你三位當部長之前我已經也提醒過衛生部、勞動部相關的部位我幾乎每一個部位我都有特別點到啦齁。那個到今天為止還是這個樣子。所以今天我們當覺得我們相關的單位一直出現的這個霸凌的狀況,這其實裡面有工作適應、人際婚姻、家庭照顧、健康、法律等。"},{"start":19212.145,"end":19217.049,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":19240.629,"end":19249.379,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":19256.178,"end":19273.275,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 人工生殖法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":19278.74,"end":19282.863,"text":"五、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文"},{"start":19296.835,"end":19299.358,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":19319.502,"end":19332.255,"text":"你們看一下啦齁,你們回去看怎麼如果做因應了。但是最後一個表格,又更奇怪。如果現在大家在面對這種霸凌的事件,院長也都交代一個星期內必須調查清楚。你們怎麼會人員異動在國會聯絡組,後面是寫零。"},{"start":19335.297,"end":19343.6,"text":"委員我簡單的報告,這個部分有一個是屬於編制內的,編制內的部分我們確實是領沒錯,但是另外還有另外一個是因為我們有跟國會組這邊有跟衣服會那邊有請求他們來支援,我沒有記錯的話應該是有兩位,所以想救這個部分編制內的回答是沒錯。"},{"start":19361.075,"end":19372.662,"text":"所以我如果要看你的表要問得清楚,不然我也會灰醋意嘛。沒關係,那個委員我後續...你這樣說我沒有主意把這個主意拿起來問,這樣我不對耶。沒有啦,不是啦。我們要檢討啦。沒有啦,委員是我們自己啦,我們自己。沒有啦,你這個所謂到底是幾個單位是存你講這個陣營。"},{"start":19381.055,"end":19384.956,"text":"議員謝衣鳯等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":19412.089,"end":19419.477,"text":"韓文凱等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":19439.724,"end":19441.765,"text":"國建署署長國建署知道大多數民眾和團體對於代理孕母的意見嗎?"},{"start":19462.096,"end":19487.142,"text":"我們都有在收集相關的資料跟意見。都有齁。那我想請教署長,那為什麼一開始公佈的草案條文會納入代理運母的制度呢?你們禮拜一的新聞稿說你們收到八成的意見都是反對,所以你們打算忽視這八成的意見嗎?如果你們知道這八成的意見都是反對,那禮拜一受訪的時候為什麼又說要將代理運母制度納入條文處理呢?"},{"start":19490.999,"end":19507.688,"text":"我想那個版本那個草案的內容都一直在進行當中。那時候訪問的時候他的確是在進行限別影響評估當中。那還沒有最後那個合定到底要不要透過都一直在討論過程。"},{"start":19508.797,"end":19535.409,"text":"對阿可是我們有八成反對八成意見反對那你為什麼又說禮拜一受訪的時候要納入條文呢可是你是對媒體這樣說的欸是阿這些意見阿但是一直都是這樣的討論阿對阿我們在討論阿可是你說可是你應該要說不然我問一下我們預告的目的是什麼我們預告的目的不就是收集意見再去做一些調整嗎對不對是對嘛齁可是你現在你在禮拜一的時候說法又說是要將代理育母制度要納入條文我認為喔這個跟"},{"start":19538.011,"end":19558.785,"text":"這個如果你說你這樣子受訪可是你明明知道預告是有很多人反對意見的話我覺得這樣子的回應是非常不恰當的所以我想今天我想我們現在已經確認了我們你們說會代理育母制度要脫鉤那我也希望未來我們可以先就有共識的部分來處理來做討論可以嗎"},{"start":19561.374,"end":19563.556,"text":"五、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":19583.238,"end":19597.132,"text":"現在性別影響評估還在進行中,對不對?我只是想請教這個流程上面,你看如果我今天預告收集了非常多的意見回來,那我的性別影響性評估裡面萬一跟這個意見有對立的時候,那要怎麼處理呢?"},{"start":19601.815,"end":19626.392,"text":"我只在想提出一個討論,拿一個想法。未來我們是不是有可能先做一個性別影響性評估?先了解,因為這是一個很重大的法案嘛,影響到女性的身體自主權嘛。我們是不是可以先做這個性別影響性評估之後,再把它併入,再把它進入這個預告的流程呢?這樣子收集來的意見,我們會不會比較好收斂呢?"},{"start":19627.528,"end":19649.708,"text":"我們未來會遵守現在整體的規定,如果是可以修訂我們可以討論。好,這邊就是提供一個參考。那再來就是說,我想要針對於就是,因為大家在講這些待遇的時候,其實我比較少聽見有關於兒童權利的相關的討論。所以我也想要請教,就是部長可不可以也一併一起上來?"},{"start":19654.073,"end":19683.406,"text":"委員好就是說我們現在公布的這個草文條案呢跟兒童有關係的是42條到第46條那有關於兒童在成長階段對於自己的身世感到疑惑想要進一步了解自己身世的時候呢有關的條文就是在上面寫的這一條子女有權查詢捐贈人的種族膚色和血型以及其他有沒有違反資訊醫療資訊或違反法律的情形但是我們也有另外一條喔其實是有規定喔"},{"start":19686.059,"end":19707.405,"text":"擬具:「醫療機構要收集捐贈人的身份證字號和病歷等資訊,有身份證字號基本上就跟你有個資是一模一樣的東西。」擬具:「所以到底在這個立法說明上面,你們說是這樣的資訊落差是要在平衡捐贈人的隱私以及人工生殖子女的血緣認知權和兒少最佳利益。」"},{"start":19708.445,"end":19732.903,"text":"那我想問喔如果說我們現在這個法規執行的那就有可能人工生殖的子女在成長過程之中他如果想要了解自己的身世的時候他只能得到膚色、種族以及血型但是他明明就知道政府和醫療機構其實擁有所有的個資這條法告訴他就是我們都知道但你不能查詢我想了解這件事情呢到底會不會影響到"},{"start":19734.624,"end":19751.492,"text":"對自己的定位、對自己的認知產生疑惑,會不會影響到他的生長,在這過程之中有沒有一些什麼樣子的挫折,會不會影響到他自己各種的一些認同等等的。我想知道這個兒童權益的影響性評估到底有沒有做啊?"},{"start":19753.535,"end":19768.081,"text":"我們這個預告版的確有做兒童潛力追加評估,那現在的透過版也有在做兒童潛力評估。我想知道可不可以再給我簡單的說明是怎麼做的呢?"},{"start":19768.701,"end":19793.369,"text":"就是我們的兒少的委員來幫我們審查整個法案到底有沒有哪一些缺失或者哪一些需要改進的哪一些違反兒少權利的部分這個是當初所規定的那這個法條的設計其實跟委員報告兒童成長到18歲成年或者是他中間碰到有一些生理疾病會得導致現身血緣的關係的時候那他可以提出請求要支息"},{"start":19794.589,"end":19816.015,"text":"當然也要尊重那個當初見證者同不同意,如果同意的話就可以讓他自息。所以我想確認一下,所以聽起來在這個部分我們在兒少影響性評估的時候,專家學者有提供的意見就是到18歲的時候他可以請求,是嗎?是。好,那我也想了解另外一個問題是說,如果今天這個小孩他是先天性疾患,"},{"start":19817.266,"end":19843.926,"text":"他出生了那這個時候他到底代理育母說要託付要請代理育母生的這個就算買主好了啦這個買主他說這個小孩我不要那代理育母也沒有辦法去照顧他的時候那這個小孩到底該怎麼辦啊這個法律上規定的就是說當他委託企業成立了以後未來剩下的子女就是委託這個"},{"start":19845.834,"end":19859.562,"text":"未來判斷的子女就是委託者是不是?好那如果說在這個假設他在成長的過程之中遇到了一些假設這個委託者就心不甘情不願啊把他送出去啊送養的話那這個對這樣子的小孩子來說公平嗎?這個必須要說法律上規定我們在系列上就已經有說明了跟委員做報告那如果未來假設有這樣的這樣的法律進行討論的時候有規範不足的時候也謝謝委員給我們指導"},{"start":19874.773,"end":19894.575,"text":"好沒關係齁因為我想要了解因為你們竟然說你有做兒少的影響性評估嘛那我就希望把這完整的報告提供到我的辦公室我想要來詳細的研讀到底有哪些部分我們還應該要再來去做討論的齁因為我覺得這個兒少的權益是在我的所有討論中比較少聽見的齁那再來喔就是說呃"},{"start":19904.307,"end":19928.364,"text":"草案第21條有規定委託配偶的身份條件。其中第一項第五款第四目裡面有規定同志家庭的身份。第四目說委託的配偶都必須是男性,就可以委託進行人工生殖。第五目則說女同志家庭必須兩邊都有無子宮無法懷孕免疫疾病生命威脅,其中一項狀況才能進行人工生殖。"},{"start":19929.324,"end":19953.22,"text":"我想請教我有點疑惑男同志家庭沒有上述的健康疑慮就可以委託做這個人工生殖嗎?但是為什麼女同志家庭一定要雙方都有生理上的疑慮才能委託呢?這個法條設計是什麼?是基於什麼樣子的原因呢?所以我們已經假設女同志家庭一定會代孕嗎?其中一人一定會代孕嗎?假設他要做代孕的話"},{"start":19956.657,"end":19976.393,"text":"這兩個是不一樣跟剛剛提到的如果是女同志她自己用自己的那當然就在人工生殖法去規定的這個是有關代孕的部分而且在上面寫的就是說他必須就是委託的那委託才有這個限制委託的時候才會有這個限制嗎可是男生男同志上面好像就沒有相關的健康疑慮就可以委託進行人工生殖欸這好像是對於女同志來說要求比較高欸"},{"start":19984.622,"end":19987.284,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":20008.997,"end":20034.663,"text":"發言去講這是女人和女人的戰爭我認為這樣子的一個發言其實是非常輕蔑的因為這其實是對女性影響非常盛大的重大的一個法案而且這個法案之所以會起來都是有相當多的女性是為了男人去滿足傳宗接代的任務所以今天才會有一部分的人必須去做這樣子的事情"},{"start":20035.543,"end":20049.731,"text":"我認為身為一位男性,尤其還是一位醫師的蘇清泉召委,不應該以一種隔岸觀火的態度來看待這個法案。我希望未來蘇清泉委員在相關的發言上面都可以更為慎重,而且更有性別平等的意識。謝謝。"},{"start":20069.008,"end":20072.01,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我先請部長。好,部長好。我先就一個問題先問一下部長。單身女性跟女同志配偶,我想只要有能力,那她也有意願要來做生養,國家是不是應該請全力來支持保障他們的生育自主?"},{"start":20097.461,"end":20118.034,"text":"是的 我們現在的立場就是這樣子好 這個立場不變齁好 那如果說要放寬現行的人工生殖法是用自己的身份不限於異性夫妻女性不論是她的婚姻的狀況其實都可以用自己的子宮生自己的孩子讓家的面貌更加的多元讓女性的人生規劃更有彈性 對嗎"},{"start":20121.884,"end":20135.023,"text":"對沒錯嘛是吧這個是我們自主女性對自己的職工有自主的權利嘛是不是選擇生或者是不生那我想這個部分應該沒有太多的疑義對不對是的"},{"start":20136.405,"end":20155.476,"text":"現今其實最多的聲音是在於所謂的代理孕母的部分那我想剛剛所講的這些不管是單身女性或者是女同事配偶是適用於這個人工生殖法我們是不是應該這個是已經有高度的社會共識包含剛剛部長您也回答我了這個我們先優先來處理是的沒錯吧是的"},{"start":20158.558,"end":20180.28,"text":"接下來我們要來談到所謂的代理孕母的部分了我想代理孕母在目前這個所謂的共識其實在我們的聽到不管是民眾的聲音不管是女性的聲音其實這個部分都有很大的一個爭議那我想懷孕生子的過程"},{"start":20181.101,"end":20183.702,"text":"一、委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":20200.911,"end":20211.098,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委"},{"start":20224.568,"end":20236.151,"text":"因為這個其實是跟女性的健康有關。我不曉得部長知不知道35歲以下的女性用人工生殖技術他們的活產率是多少?您知道嗎?使用人工35%"},{"start":20243.516,"end":20261.446,"text":"只有35%但是人工的生殖的技術也在這所謂的35歲以下的女性他們要成功懷孕也至少要試上兩次三次甚至多則七八次九十次您知道吧"},{"start":20263.619,"end":20288.32,"text":"要經過比較多次是我了解。再來我們再講到為什麼會有這麼大的一個爭議最主要的是因為利他代孕只能給予必要的成本費用但是為人家代孕者其實多數是屬於所謂的經濟弱勢我相信這個在各國我們看到有所謂的代理孕母的情況"},{"start":20289.281,"end":20301.374,"text":"我相信部長你應該也時有所聞其實這對弱勢者來講他必須要高度付出的這個所謂的健康上的代價這個其實就是相對的剝削您同意嗎"},{"start":20303.51,"end":20324.747,"text":"好沒關係您在這裡可以不用回答但我們必須說這的確是剝削這對女性自主的一個身體上的健康的疑慮它的確是有一個一定的剝削好那另外呢我再次提醒喔就是許多的支持代孕的聲音都會是因為來自婆家的壓力"},{"start":20325.768,"end":20345.56,"text":"再來因為女人不能生我覺得我不完整包含陳昭之委員他在面對媒體訪問的時候在節目上說出養子對我而言終究是外人是別人的孩子如果有代孕幫我生下我血顏的孩子我不會選擇養子來到我們家他的孩子從7個月到現在30歲了應該如果我沒記錯的話如果"},{"start":20354.166,"end":20362.251,"text":"檸子出現在他的生活當中聽到自己的媽媽講出這種話。部長您做何感受啊?做何感受?應該是不太好的感受吧。所以怎麼可以因為"},{"start":20373.905,"end":20383.227,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院"},{"start":20402.372,"end":20402.812,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人"},{"start":20424.308,"end":20437.64,"text":"另外我再次提到如果代理育母我們假設一個狀況幫別人在做代孕的這個所謂的母體她自己本身在她的自己原生的家庭她是一個母親"},{"start":20438.641,"end":20453.573,"text":" ﹏如果剛剛我講的在懷孕的過程當中不要講到說是35歲以下我們講到任何年紀懷孕他都有承擔在整個所有的孕期30幾週38週的整個所有的過程都有可能會是風險"},{"start":20455.373,"end":20469.133,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":20471.556,"end":20477.121,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文修正草案 案件及其他條文"},{"start":20491.175,"end":20513.713,"text":"那如果剛剛講到幫人代孕者這個母體母親在懷孕的過程當中他發生了健康上重大的危機跟風險甚至死亡剝奪了人家本來在家庭當中他是一個母親的權利剝奪了孩子失去了母親我們衛福部請問可以承擔嗎?可以承擔嗎?署長我最想的就是問你你可以承擔嗎?"},{"start":20521.232,"end":20523.654,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。Reporter 林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":20546.294,"end":20555.182,"text":"待遇的爭議非常之大。如果我們真的要跟人工生殖技術要來一併做討論,我個人堅決反對,本席堅決反對,他應該要來做脫鉤處理。是,我們的立場現在是這樣。好,謝謝部長,謝謝署長,謝謝主席。"},{"start":20567.138,"end":20580.225,"text":"謝謝郭委員 謝謝部長陳俊宇委員不在高金素美高金素美高金素美委員不在陳穎委員質詢請謝謝主席 麻煩請我們衛福部長"},{"start":20600.106,"end":20621.162,"text":"委員好。部長好。那個上個禮拜二我跟我們臺東部立議院院長,那我們去臺東到長濱去宣導一個有關於這個智慧手環的這個計畫。那當然關於這個原鄉結合智慧科技的社區健康營造政策,我從2021年開始就爭取推動花蓮豐濱辦理這個科技與醫療計畫。"},{"start":20626.306,"end":20640.704,"text":"那我也爭取了這個臺東長濱和成功事辦這個社區智能整合健康今年開始辦理喔那這兩個計畫都是屬於運用智慧科技結合長者健康照顧的政策這個對於"},{"start":20642.847,"end":20660.332,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第1屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由"},{"start":20670.436,"end":20687.816,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法"},{"start":20692.761,"end":20707.453,"text":"我那天去才發現定位的功能還可以同步讓你在全國各地工作的孩子們、家人們可以知道"},{"start":20708.234,"end":20725.682,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案"},{"start":20736.586,"end":20738.728,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":20748.154,"end":20770.771,"text":"我想這個當然除此之外就是說我剛剛補充一下我覺得這次去有學到一件蠻重要的事情就多人關懷這個部分我覺得很棒是因為他人數你即便到1000人他都還是可以有辦法處理的所以很多人一起來關懷家裡的長輩這是很棒的"},{"start":20771.451,"end":20785.749,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員"},{"start":20787.231,"end":20816.087,"text":"當然我想部立院也有注意到就是在這個健康照護員的部分他們都有多少有一些族語的訓練這是很棒的但是我覺得可能這個部分還要再多加強一點因為畢竟比如說你跟老人家說這個要測血氧或者是有一些其實蠻多的這個專業術語或者是在介紹使用的過程當中還有操作"},{"start":20816.527,"end":20819.189,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":20840.243,"end":20850.902,"text":"在去分享這些資訊的時候,其實那個氣氛是好的,效果也是好的。所以這個部分我就特別建議就可以再加強一些。"},{"start":20853.479,"end":20855.84,"text":"二、委員林宜瑾"},{"start":20882.13,"end":20908.038,"text":"委員一下我真的非常感謝委員長期為我們原鄉的居民的健康努力特別這個計畫非常有創建也是一個很好的示範所以我們在也為請我們的醫護會醫護會這邊在請台東醫院來進行那其實成效相當的好我們現在在成功跟長濱已經提供了1105個個案服務"},{"start":20911.141,"end":20936.864,"text":"那我相信這樣的一個那個委員這樣爭取這樣一個典範的一個做法應該是一個未來在偏鄉地區可以把它更加的廣泛來落實是,那我想部長特別講到關鍵字,廣泛落實那我就要跟部長報告一個數據我們台東就是我們全國5萬多位長者是獨居的狀態"},{"start":20938.085,"end":20957.45,"text":"關於我們台東兩千多位獨居長者,其實他們的占比是我們全台東是第一名,百分之五點五一。平均值是平均值的五倍。我們的台東第一名就是獨居老人最多的第一名。"},{"start":20959.659,"end":20977.941,"text":"在加上像花東、交通它整個地形就是很狹長啦你真的那個集中症那個真的要處理起來所以及早發現這件事情是很重要的所以我在這裡具體建議要求"},{"start":20981.003,"end":21004.35,"text":"檸檬花蓮等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第2會期"},{"start":21005.165,"end":21008.126,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案》案。"},{"start":21030.35,"end":21045.244,"text":"對,那因為我按照數據比來這個臺東,我們依序是不是就是臺東做完花蓮座嗎?那這個部分你們研議大概需要多久?一個月行不行?"},{"start":21049.428,"end":21074.808,"text":"首先謝謝委員對我們這個支持不管是在成功還是長兵的啟動還是期中推廣會都是每一個活動都熱情的跟我們全程參與給我們做鼓勵這個計畫我們會遵照委員指示來盡量能夠推廣但是當然有在經費上面我們需要爭取經費的爭取如果能夠順利的話那我們在推廣上就會更加的順暢"},{"start":21076.189,"end":21101.734,"text":"好,那部長已經說要廣泛落實嘛,他都已經給方向,所以部長應該會支持啦。我想做得好的地方我們就去把它擴張嘛。那個花蓮也是很需要,我想我們就對,啊那我想如果就是反正我們大概東部優先來處理這個示範的部分。我們重視東部的全線實施這樣。好,謝謝。那我們是不是這個計畫研議一個月內可以"},{"start":21105.956,"end":21132.708,"text":"請義父,沒關係,我們把計畫演繹看怎麼樣來進行,我一個月跟委員辦公室這邊報告。另外我快速的提一個很嚴重的問題,就是說也是要問一下醫事司,不然部長回答也是可以,因為大家都醫生都會知道,一個人如果心跳停止的時候會呈現什麼情形?"},{"start":21136.81,"end":21141.942,"text":"心跳停止心跳停止人會呈現什麼狀況?"},{"start":21143.911,"end":21168.087,"text":"如果心跳停止,血液就沒辦法到全身、沒辦法到腦部,就會昏迷。對。然後可能因為就會...沒有意識了嘛。就會延期休克,甚至死亡。好。那如果一個人他可以傳Line,還可以拍照,然後他還可以講話,他可以很清楚有意識的跟人家溝通,那這個人應該不會是心跳停止吧?"},{"start":21169.438,"end":21170.879,"text":"這個時候應該不是心跳停止。"},{"start":21199.518,"end":21220.671,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。adequate 家人大概兩年四十到達醫院,家屬看到這個患者的時候他的意識是清楚,只是說他痛到快要沒有辦法講話,那這位主人在急診的時候有做這個心電圖跟初學檢查的等等這些檢查。那後來這個主人在醫院的期間病況就越來越嚴重,後來在9月28號的時候很不幸他就走了。"},{"start":21221.691,"end":21249.133,"text":"此家屬在院方的急診上認為說院方是不是在急診上有什麼樣疏失的情形所以申請了診斷證明還有在這個院期間所有的檢查的資料結果看到這個診斷證明書之後全家都沒有辦法接受因為上面寫著他竟然寫著到院前心跳停止所以他們接到的是一個心跳停止的患者的這個LINE嗎?"},{"start":21250.054,"end":21250.714,"text":"我聽副處長說這個後來有更正"},{"start":21278.696,"end":21304.893,"text":"但這樣子的是因為後面可以更正所以沒有關係不是沒有關係就是要當然要檢討我想說縱使我們現在AI科技很發達那可能診斷證明就還是必須要由這個醫師人工填寫他診斷證明有誤差可能有時候在所難免但是當然心血管疾病的變化很快也是大家可以理解只是說這樣的診斷證明"},{"start":21307.014,"end":21311.898,"text":"部長你還是覺得這個是可以接受的錯誤嗎?而且這個還是我們的不利意願欸。這個可能要...這種錯誤到底我們可能要仔細來研究它整個過程。因為它說下面有寫到即等於當日接受緊急心腦管手術及艾克膜置放。"},{"start":21333.058,"end":21347.108,"text":"這個部分就是如果說他一來就必須要越課嘛,表示他心臟當時的狀況是不太好。不過你說他又會跟家人講話。還在傳賴啊。那是在監獄上還會傳賴嗎?他到時候還有議事啊。這樣是比較奇怪。"},{"start":21354.012,"end":21371.347,"text":"所以那個我想除了診斷證明這個烏龍以外齁那家屬明明填寫就是說在院期間的所有檢查資料包括抽血心電圖等等那他在急診室的時候明明有做過三次的心電圖可是醫院給的資料卻只有一次"},{"start":21372.609,"end":21401.174,"text":"如果從前面的疏失一直到後面又掃東掃西的那你覺得你是家屬的話你會覺得對這家醫院所有的一切你會有什麼想法而且這個人死了我們都理解因為我們處理很多醫療疏失我們都不願意再給醫護人員醫師醫護人員一些壓力但是我想我想這樣子的疏失好其實是"},{"start":21402.321,"end":21406.422,"text":"三、委員林宜瑾等21人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":21426.483,"end":21434.627,"text":"我想這個態度都不是很可以接受而且這孩子這兒子才高中生而已啊"},{"start":21436.109,"end":21460.926,"text":"所以社工這個態度也是個問題嘛所以我手邊手上其實還有幾件剛好也都是原住民的我不知道這個應該也跟身分別沒有什麼關係啦但是因為因為現在醫護人員短缺我們也不願意給太多的壓力但是我一下子又接到到醫院明明就骨折去了好幾天"},{"start":21461.926,"end":21485.779,"text":"檢查都檢查不出來還怪病人說沒有告訴醫院說哪裡骨折。還叫我到整個身體都是傷了當然全身都痛他怎麼知道哪裡骨折呢?那我們要去跟醫院協商醫院也理直氣壯說我們通通按照SOP來那到底是誰是被咬的比較衰嗎?然後連腦積水的也沒有看出來延誤治療。"},{"start":21487.895,"end":21515.2,"text":"那到底要算誰的?因為我們尊重現在醫護人員都很缺,那特別在我們台東。我想在我們醫護人員缺,我們也要維護民眾的健康。對,我剛剛講的三件,那再麻煩部長,這三件幫我們好好處理。我不想給醫護人員、給醫院壓力,但是我想彼此大家都要互相體諒,好不好?三件我後續再找你,謝謝。好的,好的。好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝部長。"},{"start":21518.177,"end":21546.136,"text":"五、委員吳春成等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案。五、委員沈花蕙等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案。秋正鈞等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案。羅志強等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案。林楚英等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案。傅坤祺等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正�"},{"start":21547.961,"end":21550.504,"text":"吳佩儀委員謝謝主席,我請這個衛福部部長"},{"start":21568.126,"end":21585.654,"text":"委員好部長好我們今天是來進行人工生殖法修法草案那總共有16個委員有提案版本的詢答那當中呢其中我也有提案我的提案版本呢我是希望人工生殖術能夠擴擠單身女性以及女性同志"},{"start":21586.394,"end":21611.051,"text":"但是我希望這次的修法不要納入代理運募,希望脫鉤來討論處理。那在今天的上午的質詢,我人沒在現場但是我有在看轉播,我看到黃國昌委員有提到說,修法討論的時候,因為這個法案其實很複雜,所以我認同他說的,修法討論不要去扣人家帽子,但是我要呼籲民眾黨,尤其之前民眾黨陳昭之委員,"},{"start":21613.356,"end":21637.297,"text":"他把在這個法案當中跟他不同意見的女性他說我們叫做心理變態這個就是典型的扣帽子而且是一種人身攻擊所以我希望各個政黨黨團應該要自我的約束自律這個不同意見都可以討論但是不要去扣人家帽子尤其心理變態這是何等的人身攻擊"},{"start":21638.238,"end":21658.45,"text":"再來,其中當中我為什麼認為這次帶領孕母一定要脫鉤處理?因為大家最擔心的是女性的子宮不能被商品化。在我們現在人工生殖法的現行法案裡面,對於拿子宮來販賣盈利、意圖盈利,現行有沒有法則?"},{"start":21660.624,"end":21688.99,"text":"人工生殖法部分條文修正草案現行是有罰則的但是現在的罰則是兩年刑渡兩年一顆罰金的話20萬到100萬因為正好昨天我們叫委員會也在討論因為打假球全民是生物痛覺這也是把球員商品化所以我們加重修法處理當中包括民眾黨、國民黨包括我們的版本我們都同意"},{"start":21689.65,"end":21704.822,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法�"},{"start":21719.557,"end":21739.806,"text":"那我現在看到所有我們立法院主張代理育母要納入本次修法的委員版本當中,沒有人處理加重罰則。打假求加重處罰,再賣女性子宮不用加重處罰嗎?這是我嚴重質疑的。難道大家認為說女性的子宮是可以這樣定價的嗎?"},{"start":21742.421,"end":21770.126,"text":"那你現在子宮來販賣只要罰20萬只要關兩年我們現在國家是如果你大架球你一坨盈利微破球員的話10年以下喔所以我要再次的重申所有有主張要把代理育母納入人工生殖法案修法的委員你們口口聲聲說不會商品化部長有請問我們現在要怎麼查核啊"},{"start":21771.633,"end":21790.309,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案﹚立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人"},{"start":21793.507,"end":21812.803,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":21825.933,"end":21829.475,"text":"謝謝委員接下來我們請黃捷委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請那個我們請部長跟署長一起好不好部長請署長"},{"start":21849.136,"end":21859.862,"text":"委員好部長還是在這邊跟你明確的請教你們衛福部是已經確定會脫鉤處理嗎?你們的版本裡面有沒有代理孕母?"},{"start":21860.936,"end":21884.979,"text":"沒有確定透過處理為什麼部長今天在這邊承諾非常重要是因為大家知道今天其實在立法院外面有一群反代孕的女性因為非常擔憂台灣的女性的身體會被拿來當成商品非常擔心弱勢的女性的子宮會被拿來出售所以他們現在就在立法院外面"},{"start":21886.269,"end":21912.866,"text":"希望這樣的聲音可以傳達到我們衛環委員會裡面。部長你聽到了嗎?我聽到了,而且我們的立場就是這樣子。我們的未來的新版本也是脫鉤的版本。好,那部長謝謝你在這邊的承諾,這個一定要在這邊非常堅定的表達出我們衛福部的立場。那這邊再來接下來我們請署長,部長先請重回座。謝謝。署長跟你請教一下喔,你自己是醫生對嗎?"},{"start":21914.844,"end":21928.473,"text":"那請問我們生產是有風險的一件事嗎生產當然有風險生產既然有風險我們現在讓這個代理運母合法化是不是就是把生產風險轉嫁生產風險外包我想任何一個風險我們都必須要去管控而且希望能夠透過一些法規的規範來讓他降低他的風險"},{"start":21940.215,"end":21956.872,"text":"請問一下署長你這句話的意思是說你支持你認為在合理的管控之下代理孕母這樣子生產風險轉嫁的行為是可以被允許的嗎我想那個是如果假設要討論這些相關的內容的時候是可以討論的"},{"start":21958.471,"end":21986.419,"text":"署長我必須要在這邊跟你嚴正的澄清喔我們在這邊不希望代理運母在這一次的討論裡面被納進來就是因為以上這個核心的問題沒有辦法被解決既然生產是有風險的那請問當我們外包的時候誰必須要承擔這些風險到底誰必須要變成是這些承擔風險的對象啊到底誰有義務要去承擔這些風險啊署長"},{"start":21989.059,"end":21999.665,"text":"我們剛剛開放討論就是希望能夠藉由大家討論,大家有什麼建議,能夠讓整個法規能夠更完整。那既然現在已經絕對破風,就不會...我目前沒有問。"},{"start":22008.752,"end":22015.556,"text":"我建議你回去請教一下你身邊所有的女性到底誰願意自願來擔任這個必須要承擔生產風險的代理育母喔 署長我相信你現在到現在您還搞不清楚為什麼我們在這邊嚴正的反對說爭議這麼大的代理育母絕對不可以納入這次的條文就是因為非常擔心子宮被商品化"},{"start":22031.745,"end":22050.671,"text":"當心有這樣子風險的外報必須要讓弱勢的女性他可能有經濟需求他可能因為某種家庭的壓力所以他必須要承擔這些外界的壓力來自己承擔說哦大家把風險轉嫁給我所以弱勢的女性要在這裡讓這些有需求的人使用他的子宮欸我都同意委員的建議那希望能夠法規能夠大家能夠討論讓他嚴厲讓他降低所有的風險"},{"start":22059.872,"end":22070.642,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第2會"},{"start":22080.25,"end":22103.272,"text":"他們有開放代孕但是過去就是因為這些代孕者的聲音不消失所以現在才會有這麼多與時俱進的國家像歐洲有23個人權國家決意說他們要禁止代孕這就是現在國際的趨勢因為大家逐漸發現說原來代理孕不是大家想像的這麼美好不是說我們就是跟你出界子宮而已沒有這麼簡單"},{"start":22105.799,"end":22117.878,"text":"報告委員,我想今天以及委員您所提的,我們都深刻的了解跟提認,所以我們現在衛福部最後間的版本就是,的立場就是"},{"start":22120.984,"end":22123.927,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":22136.818,"end":22161.878,"text":"是不是一直以來都認為這麼爭議的事情你們從來沒有深刻檢討沒有深刻去檢討說裡面弱勢女性的性別正義的問題去檢討說階級正義的問題國際上有這麼多的弱勢女性他們會去當代理孕母就是因為他們有經濟需求他們知道說原來我去幫人家懷一個孩子我可以從中賺一筆錢但沒有想到說背後要負擔的成本背後要負擔的風險都是他自己要承擔啊"},{"start":22163.621,"end":22171.023,"text":"所以這些像陳昭芝委員陳天在講說就是有人願意做無償待遇請問在座所有的女性你願意做無償待遇嗎?你願意幫別人承擔這樣的風險嗎?我不相信有誰願意這樣說沒錯我就是非常的聖人我在這邊就是希望來照顧其他的女性"},{"start":22183.706,"end":22189.014,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":22201.386,"end":22226.022,"text":"這就是這麼根本的問題,我不知道為什麼在台上的兩位男性都沒有辦法理解耶。我完全理解,而且那個也...對,周偉都笑了,因為他想說台上的兩位男性怎麼會理解女性生產過程中的辛苦呢。所以我在這邊還是要非常嚴正,而且非常非常嚴肅的表達我的立場。"},{"start":22226.963,"end":22236.026,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":22255.492,"end":22273.883,"text":"她說如果這個代孕者在懷孕中期失敗之後有終止代孕的權利但是委託方可以依照民法的規定跟代孕者來請求損害賠償什麼意思就是如果你代孕者懷孕失敗了不好意思委託者可以告你喔可以跟你要賠償喔請問可以這樣對代孕者嗎"},{"start":22277.245,"end":22294.379,"text":"我不是要在這樣的版本裡面就是說你小孩沒有生給我你這個商品沒有給我我是可以告你的喔他們把小孩當成商品在這樣的條文裡面我們真的是可以如此的冷靜的去看待這些事情嗎這都是活生生的生命欸"},{"start":22296.3,"end":22319.587,"text":"所以看起來裡面完全不只沒有把代孕者的聲音而且也讓人工生殖子女的聲音都沒有被放進去這是我在這邊要嚴正表達抗議的所以我很希望說在這邊也跟我們朝委拜託這個爭議真的非常非常大絕對不能這樣隨便的讓它通過一旦通過對台灣所有的女性都是災難好最後我還是在這邊請教"},{"start":22326.348,"end":22329.818,"text":"拜託部長,我們把我們的底線守好好嗎?是。"},{"start":22331.554,"end":22360.823,"text":"這個你們也必須要表達出我當然知道說因為你們都是醫師就會覺得說這個從醫學技術上面來看沒有問題但很多東西不是只有技術的問題我們都是每個人都是活生生的生命好不好好那在這邊拜託堅守到底絕對不可以讓這樣的法案通過是好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝部長署長林思敏林思敏林委員不在"},{"start":22365.403,"end":22367.647,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束。"},{"start":22369.028,"end":22396.947,"text":"委員王一鳴陳俊宇省花費邱振均盧縣一吳征存所提書面資料列入紀錄刊登公報我們做以下的決議說明及審打完畢委員執行為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆委員另行要求期限者從其所定人工生殖法部分條文修正草案暨16案"},{"start":22399.669,"end":22404.776,"text":"那我們另外則期繼續審查。本次會議到此結束,現在上會。"},{"start":22437.637,"end":22438.097,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案。」案。"},{"start":22473.097,"end":22473.541,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員"}]}},{"id":"157910","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157910","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21d50d03b83371a4c2a99904554a4baaac90a1da7b6f6bcb9d04779979c8b02f845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"14:34:54 - 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署長我相信你現在到現在您還搞不清楚為什麼我們在這邊嚴正的反對說爭議這麼大的代理育母絕對不可以納入這次的條文就是因為非常擔心子宮被商品化"},{"start":200.957,"end":219.885,"text":"當心有這樣子風險的外報必須要讓弱勢的女性他可能有經濟需求他可能因為某種家庭的壓力所以他必須要承擔這些外界的壓力來自己承擔說哦大家把風險轉嫁給我所以弱勢的女性要在這裡讓這些有需求的人使用他的子宮欸我都同意委員的建議那希望能夠法規能夠大家能夠討論讓他嚴厲讓他降低所有的風險"},{"start":229.267,"end":245.471,"text":"這不是降低風險的問題這是倫理的問題這個是一個對女性權益保障的問題在目前國民黨跟民眾黨的版本裡面對代孕者的保障是完全完全不足的甚至是聲音被消失的"},{"start":245.911,"end":272.467,"text":"這也是過去國際上雖然大家討論說有一些國家他們有開放代孕但是過去就是因為這些代孕者的聲音不消失所以現在才會有這麼多與時俱進的國家像歐洲有23個人權國家決意說他們要禁止代孕這就是現在國際的趨勢因為大家逐漸發現說原來代理孕不是大家想像的這麼美好不是說我們就是跟你出借子宮而已沒有這麼簡單"},{"start":275.014,"end":287.107,"text":"報告委員我想今天以及委員您所提的我們都深刻的瞭解跟提認所以我們現在衛福部最後監的版本就是的立場就是"},{"start":288.838,"end":293.704,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":305.538,"end":317.765,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":332.853,"end":340.235,"text":"所以這些像陳昭芝委員陳天在講說就是有人願意做無償待遇請問在座所有的女性你願意做無償待遇嗎?你願意幫別人承擔這樣的風險嗎?我不相信有誰願意這樣說沒錯我就是非常的聖人我在這邊就是希望來照顧其他的女性"},{"start":352.938,"end":376.781,"text":"所以我要來幫這些人無償的待遇去吸收這些生產的風險讓這些不管產前生產中到產後甚至是所有的後遺症沒關係我來擔我不相信在座哪一位女性你願意這樣做這就是這麼根本的問題我不知道為什麼在台上的兩位男性都沒有辦法理解耶"},{"start":377.492,"end":395.218,"text":"我完全理解,而且那個也...對,朝偉都笑了,因為他想說臺上的兩位男性怎麼會理解女性生產過程中的辛苦呢?所以我在這邊還是要非常嚴正,而且非常非常嚴肅的表達我的立場。"},{"start":396.198,"end":405.14,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":424.704,"end":443.118,"text":"她說如果這個代孕者在懷孕中期失敗之後有終止代孕的權利但是委託方可以依照民法的規定跟代孕者來請求損害賠償什麼意思就是如果你代孕者懷孕失敗了不好意思委託者可以告你喔可以跟你要賠償喔請問可以這樣對代孕者嗎"},{"start":446.48,"end":463.594,"text":"我不是要在這樣的版本裡面就是說你小孩沒有生給我你這個商品沒有給我我是可以告你的喔他們把小孩當成商品在這樣的條文裡面我們真的是可以如此的冷靜的去看待這些事情嗎這都是活生生的生命欸"},{"start":465.532,"end":488.817,"text":"所以看起來裡面完全不只沒有把代孕者的聲音而且也讓人工生殖子女的聲音都沒有被放進去這是我在這邊要嚴正表達抗議的所以我很希望說在這邊也跟我們朝委拜託這個爭議真的非常非常大絕對不能這樣隨便的讓它通過一旦通過對台灣所有的女性都是災難好最後我還是在這邊請教"},{"start":495.563,"end":499.028,"text":"拜託部長,我們把我們的底線守好好嗎?是"},{"start":500.649,"end":526.635,"text":"等19人擬具 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14:34:45","影片長度":"00:04:31","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T14:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T14:34:45+08:00","duration":271,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.105968750000001,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.53471875,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.79034375,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.82721875,"end":34.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.072843750000004,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.09784375,"end":61.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.77659375,"end":62.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.27846875,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.55221875000001,"end":69.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.18034375,"end":71.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.52596875,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.43284375,"end":75.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.96846875,"end":96.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.23096875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.11221875000001,"end":103.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.06534375000001,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.82409375,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.42721875000001,"end":110.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.56971875,"end":119.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.53534375000001,"end":126.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.30659375,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.43221875,"end":137.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.06846875000002,"end":139.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.51534375,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.25659375,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.11284375,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.77471875,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.66471875000002,"end":163.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.02221875,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":177.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.57284375,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.93534375000002,"end":182.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.42846875,"end":185.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.41971875000002,"end":189.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.83659375000002,"end":192.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.54096875000002,"end":193.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.22846875000002,"end":195.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.96659375000002,"end":199.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.47659375,"end":200.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.88971875000001,"end":203.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.99909375000001,"end":205.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.31096875,"end":212.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.47034375,"end":218.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.06409375,"end":225.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":232.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.19284375,"end":235.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.47096875000003,"end":237.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.33971875,"end":239.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.29721875,"end":241.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.96784375000001,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.60034375,"end":246.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.84471875000003,"end":247.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.94159375,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.76409375000003,"end":253.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.26971875,"end":267.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.73221875,"end":265.57596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.244,"end":9.766,"text":"謝謝主席。我請這個衛福部部長。委員好。部長好。我們今天是來進行人工生殖法修法草案。那總共有16個委員有提案版本的詢答。那當中呢其中我也有提案。我的提案版本呢我是希望人工生殖術能夠擴擠單身女性以及女性同志。"},{"start":34.878,"end":59.529,"text":"但是我希望這次的修法不要納入代理運募希望脫鉤來討論處理那在今天的上午的質詢我人沒在現場但是我有在看轉播我看到黃國昌委員有提到說修法討論的時候因為這個法案其實很複雜所以我認同他說的修法討論不要去扣人家帽子但是我要呼籲民眾黨尤其之前民眾黨陳昭之委員"},{"start":61.84,"end":68.754,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 與他不同意見的女性,所以我們叫做心理變態。」"},{"start":70.502,"end":96.108,"text":"這個就是典型的扣帽子而且是一種人身攻擊所以我希望各個政黨黨團應該要自我的約束自律這個不同意見都可以討論但是不要去扣人家帽子尤其心理變態這是何等的人身攻擊那再來其中當中呢我為什麼認為這次帶領孕母一定要脫鉤處理因為大家最擔心的是女性的子宮不能被商品化"},{"start":97.308,"end":106.93,"text":"在我們現在人工生殖法的現行法案裡面對於拿子宮來販賣盈利、意圖盈利現行有沒有法則?"},{"start":109.108,"end":137.454,"text":"人工生殖法部分條文修正草案現行是有罰則的但是現在的罰則是兩年刑渡兩年一顆罰金的話20萬到100萬因為正好昨天我們叫委員會也在討論因為打假球全民是生物痛覺這也是把球員商品化所以我們加重凶法處理當中包括民眾黨、國民黨包括我們的版本我們都同意"},{"start":138.114,"end":153.286,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法�"},{"start":168.038,"end":188.088,"text":"那我現在看到所有我們立法院主張代理育母要納入本次修法的委員版本當中,沒有人處理加重罰則。打假求加重處罰,但賣女性子宮不用加重處罰嗎?這是我嚴重質疑的。難道大家認為說女性的子宮是可以這樣定價的嗎?"},{"start":190.902,"end":218.607,"text":"那女性的子宮來販賣只要罰20萬只要關兩年我們現在國家是如果你大架球你一坨盈利微破球員的話10年以下喔所以我要再次的重申所有有主張要把代理育母納入人工生殖法案修法的委員你們口口聲聲說不會商品化部長我請問我們現在要怎麼查核啊"},{"start":220.114,"end":225.3,"text":"disciplinary四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":242.348,"end":263.252,"text":"指罰兩年,大家可以接受嗎?部長我是絕對不能接受。所以呢,我要再次的強調,絕對我的立場本次修法不該納入代理育母,尤其是意圖營利,絕對要加重來罰則。但是目前沒有任何一個委員提出加重處罰的版本,所以不應該草率來通過。好,謝謝。謝謝委員指教。"}]}},{"id":"157986","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157986","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd0732313852fd615647dd143e698449c70dca3e79c26fb9ca088cedbb00e0087671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"11:57:01 - 12:07:25","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T11:57:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T12:07:25+08:00","duration":624,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.72909375,"end":25.191593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.18721875,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.309093750000002,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.49034375,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.895343750000002,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.91221875,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.77971875,"end":97.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.97346875000001,"end":117.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.54846875000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.11659375,"end":131.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.84159375000002,"end":135.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.63846875000002,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.15159375000002,"end":152.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.71159375000002,"end":156.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.68159375000002,"end":157.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.44096875,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.48659375,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.71409375000002,"end":165.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.43971875,"end":171.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.91971875000002,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.50159375,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.77159375000002,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":180.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.55971875,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.05159375000002,"end":193.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.21159375000002,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.17721875,"end":199.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.25284375,"end":202.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.46346875,"end":203.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.35784375,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.35221875000002,"end":212.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.62221875,"end":217.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.49909375000001,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.85346875000002,"end":254.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.42159375000003,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.70409375000003,"end":259.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.26471875000004,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.10784375000003,"end":270.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.14909375,"end":270.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.38534375,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.97596875,"end":273.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.64221875000004,"end":305.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.24909375000004,"end":322.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.89659375,"end":322.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.73159375,"end":351.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.56159375000004,"end":331.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.00971875000005,"end":359.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.70471875000004,"end":378.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.36846875000003,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.964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39.704,"text":"跟委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%"},{"start":441.306,"end":443.447,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議"},{"start":459.24,"end":486.047,"text":"從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力證面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對抗公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":488.1,"end":489.52,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":502.688,"end":532.14,"text":"就是純粹就退休金來講對新進的就不會受影響因為它是一個實質專屋制好那我們大家都知道啦下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比這個提撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年台灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退伏基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代"},{"start":533.777,"end":561.702,"text":"所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全序部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論"},{"start":563.542,"end":582.53,"text":"那我想部長今天一個早上到現在我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健、橫貧的一個做法那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標"},{"start":583.59,"end":612.387,"text":"但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們後續可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障"},{"start":613.327,"end":618.592,"text":"這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個這個案件好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時57分）好，謝謝主席。今天列席的各單位首長，還有媒體先進，今天在場的各位好朋友，大家早。我們有請施部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長午安。"],["施部長能傑：委員午安。"],["陳委員俊宇：今天我們要針對委員所提出的有關公務人員退休資遣撫卹法及公務人員任用法等22個版本進行併案審查，公務人員是我們國家很重要的一群服務人員，政府對於現職及退休人員的待遇，都應該衡平兼顧，公務人員相關退休撫卹制度的穩健，則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關改革。過去我們的退撫基金曾經因為根本性問題，面臨即將破產的危機，在馬政府時期，曾經提出要推動年金改革，不過最後未能完成相關修法，直到2016年蔡政府上任之後，才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策，透過制度的變革，解決月退休金起支年齡偏低、所得替代率偏高等問題，當時部長您也在人事總處服務……"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：充分的參與到推動年金改革方案的整個過程，現在提案委員所提出的修法主張和理由，相信部長您應該感到非常熟悉，首先想就教部長，您認為2018年以來，現行的這套制度實施成效為何？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，對整個基金財務健全來講，真的有很大的幫忙，因為它達成了……至少努力達成當初的一個方向，即希望能夠延後一個世代才破產，因為這樣的結果，所以政府挹注了二千七百七十多億，也因為有更多的錢進來，讓我們的年度收支從失衡轉向平衡，因此我們就有更多基金的錢可以進行投資，累積基金淨額。其實我們現在還有2.9兆負債，但是因為這些努力，估算如果可以繼續持續，大概可以維持到1.8兆左右的負債，等於是這中間，我們未來還會繼續再有新的錢進來，我想這是蠻重要的財務上的改善。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長您認為，以目前來看，還有沒有再實施改革的必要性？"],["施部長能傑：我覺得從基金要穩健的角度，我還是講，這個基金不是只有已退的人員會使用，還包括現職人員未來要一起使用這個基金。因為目前的狀況其實對財務貢獻是非常非常好，我個人是主張繼續讓它走完改革的方式，因為到118年以後，大概就停止調降所得替代率，在那個部分，未來我們的財務以估算來講，是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們這次的修法有一個重點，是要提前停止退休所得替代率再繼續逐年遞減，就剛剛部長您說到118年才會停止的。當年年金改革所提出10年緩降的措施，應當是為了要減輕衝擊的力道，透過衡平考量來作為制度的調整，舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題。如果即刻停止退休所得替代率降低，基金是不是又會面臨再次破產的一個危機？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們估算如果真的就停止的話，未來我們大概會減少2,800億的挹注，這個其實對基金來講是很大一個衝擊，會讓基金提早用罄。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，提早停止的話，降低所造成財務的缺口就會跑出來了，而退撫基金的收支失衡持續累積下去，受影響的不單是退撫基金本身，也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算，所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化、健全化還有永續化的方向來發展。我還是要請教部長，未來我們應該如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的目標？"],["施部長能傑：我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外，當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資，能夠讓它增加投資效益，這方面都是我們一起共同來努力的重點，重點在於增加投資的一個效益。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們在這次的修法當中，有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限，但我們站在照顧退休者的角度來看，是不是應該要著重於實際領到的金額？尤其我們看到這次銓敘部所提出的相關附表，顯示我們目前這種平均月退休金，大部分都在5萬塊以上，我想是否能夠維持基本的生活需求，因人而異，而且現職的人員待遇之間，他們衡平性也能夠再進行相關的討論。","我想請教部長，若我們依照現行的制度持續來調整退休所得替代率，會不會降到比其他的國家還低？還是說我們因為計算的方式不同，名目上的60%已經沒有反映實質的替代率了？"],["施部長能傑：我想，即使名目上維持在60%，跟OECD國家的平均值比，事實上都還是高一點，更何況名目上60%，實質上並不是60%。"],["陳委員俊宇：比其他國家還高？"],["施部長能傑：對，都比其他國家還高。如果我們的名目把它轉成實質的話，大概是在70%左右。"],["陳委員俊宇：70%左右，好，但我們物價通膨的因素確實也是存在啦，這也是一些退休人員所擔心的。短期物價的波動，也會影響到民生經濟，應該要有穩健合理的調整機制，加以保障並維持退休所得的實質購買力。銓敘部目前是透過什麼樣的機制，來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的衝擊？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，其實我們現在都是根據法律明定，如果說CPI累計達到5%，我們就應該要檢討。所以過去這一段年改以後，事實上對退休人員的退休所得已經累計調整6%，當然如果沒有達到5%，我們還有另外一個機制，每4年也應該定期來檢視。其實我們兩次調整6%，第一次的物價指數還沒有達到5%，事實上，那時候是用每4年去調整它。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況，公部門的人力正面臨一個非常大的困境，不但高普考的報考率10年來對砍，公部門離職率和流動率，也都相對的在提升。我想請教部長，改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響？"],["施部長能傑：我們新進人員都已經實施專戶制了，所以專戶制跟我們現在討論這個基金是獨立的，所以對112年新進的人員來講，他們不會受我們今天討論的東西的影響，就是純粹就退休金來講。"],["陳委員俊宇：新進的就不會受影響？"],["施部長能傑：對，因為已經實施專戶制。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們大家都知道，下一個世代正面臨少子化，以及撫養比提高的挑戰，尤其明年臺灣即將進入超高齡的社會，年輕人肩負的壓力不斷上升，會造成退撫基金不幸的提前破產，該如何來補償權益受損的這些青年世代？"],["施部長能傑：所以，還是跟委員報告，我們銓敘部的職責，就是無論如何要讓這個基金財務能夠永續，讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員，他以後退休的時候能夠領得到，我想這是我們的責任。因此我們對於任何檢討的提案，我都認為應該要重視對財務基金的衝擊，當然還有社會不同聲音的討論。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長，今天一個早上到現在，我們也非常的清楚，維持現行的制度會是相對穩健衡平的一個作法，我們要保障公務人員權益的同時，讓年金制度能夠永續不破產，是我們共同的目標，但是也需要和社會來持續的溝通、尋求共識。剛剛主席也裁示，我們後續可能對於這個部分會來舉辦公聽會，以慎重的態度來討論年金改革，持續朝向世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展，讓年金破產的危機不再發生。我相信領得到、持續領，而且領到老、有保障，這個一定是我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的目標，我希望我們相關部會能夠審慎地來處理這個案件。謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：依照先前宣告，我們現在休息，下午1點繼續開會，謝謝各位。","休息（12時7分）","繼續開會（13時2分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下面我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd07313b46e41ba01e961d143e698449c70dca3e79c26fb9ca08859671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:51:55 - 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國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd0738a122ef9ba6acdf7d143e698449c70dc5bc424c4e8c151476511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"11:57:03 - 12:07:27","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T11:57:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T12:07:27+08:00","duration":624,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.72096875,"end":23.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.17909375,"end":24.870968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.300968750000003,"end":28.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.44846875,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.887218750000002,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.90409375,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.77159375000001,"end":95.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.96534375,"end":115.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.55721875,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.17596875000001,"end":129.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.83346875,"end":133.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.61346875,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.19409375,"end":150.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.70346875,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.67346875,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.44971875000002,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.47846875000002,"end":162.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.68909375,"end":163.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.43159375000002,"end":169.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.91159375,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.51034375,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.74659375000002,"end":172.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.96596875,"end":178.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.56846875000002,"end":189.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.06034375000002,"end":191.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.20346875,"end":196.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.20284375,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.24471875,"end":200.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.47221875000002,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.36659375000002,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.34409375,"end":210.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.63096875000002,"end":215.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.49096875,"end":252.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.41346875000002,"end":253.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.46409375000002,"end":252.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.71284375000002,"end":257.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.22284375000004,"end":261.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.09971875,"end":268.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.12409375000004,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.39409375,"end":268.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.96784375000004,"end":271.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.68471875,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.24096875000004,"end":320.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.88846875,"end":320.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.67284375,"end":357.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.57034375,"end":329.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.74721875,"end":376.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.36034375,"end":394.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.97346875000005,"end":395.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.96909375,"end":395.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.98596875000004,"end":396.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","s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都比其他國家還高那如果我們的名目把它轉成台灣的實質的話大概其實是在70左右70左右"},{"start":395.998,"end":421.948,"text":"好 那我們這個物價通膨的這個因素確實也是存在這也是一些退休人員所擔心的那短期物價的這個波動也會影響到民生的這個經濟應該要有穩健合理的一個調整機制加以保障維持退休所得的實質購買力那全序部目前是透過什麼樣的機制來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的一個衝擊"},{"start":422.808,"end":437.69,"text":"根委員報告其實這是我們現在都是根據法律明定如果說CPI呢達到累計達到5%我們就應該要檢討所以過去這一段年改以後事實上累計調整了對退休人員的這個退休所得已經累計調整6%"},{"start":439.172,"end":441.434,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":457.243,"end":484.053,"text":"從先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況的一些情形公部門的人力正面臨一個非常大的困境不但高普考的報考率十年來對侃公部門離職率和流動率也都相對的在提升我想請教部長改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":485.523,"end":500.005,"text":"我們新晉人員都已經實施那個專戶制了所以專戶制跟我們現在討論這個基金是獨立的所以對現職人員來講新晉的人員來講大概是112年新晉人員他不會受我們今天討論的一個東西的影響"},{"start":500.686,"end":530.146,"text":"就是純粹就退休金來講對 新進的就不會受影響對 因為它是一個實質專屋制好 那我們大家都知道啦下一個世代正面臨這個少子化那以及這個撫養比這個提撫養比的這個提高的挑戰尤其在明年臺灣即將進入超高齡的一個社會那年輕人肩負的這個壓力不斷上升那會造成退伏基金不幸的這個提前破產該如何來補償這個權益受損的這些青年世代"},{"start":531.78,"end":559.688,"text":"所以我想還是跟委員報告我們全區部的職責就是無論如何要讓這個基金呢能夠財務能夠永續讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員他能夠以後退休的時候能夠有領得到我想這是我們的責任所以我們對於呢任何檢討的提案都認為應該要重視這個對財務基金的衝擊當然還有社會的一個不同聲音的一個討論"},{"start":560.848,"end":580.529,"text":"好那我想部長這個今天一個早上到現在然後那我們也非常的清楚維持現行的制度會是相對穩健和平的一個做法然後那我們要保障公務人員權益的這個同時讓年金制度能夠永續不破產是我們共同的一個目標"},{"start":581.59,"end":610.37,"text":"但是也需要和社會來持續的這個溝通尋求共識那剛剛主席也才是就是我們或許可能就是對於這個部分會來舉辦這個公聽會那以慎重的這種態度來討論年金改革持續朝向這個一個世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展讓年金破產的這個危機不再發生那我相信這個領得到持續領而且領到老有保障"},{"start":611.31,"end":616.673,"text":"這個一定是對我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的一個目標我希望我們這個相關部會能夠審慎的來處理這個案件謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時57分）好，謝謝主席。今天列席的各單位首長，還有媒體先進，今天在場的各位好朋友，大家早。我們有請施部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長午安。"],["施部長能傑：委員午安。"],["陳委員俊宇：今天我們要針對委員所提出的有關公務人員退休資遣撫卹法及公務人員任用法等22個版本進行併案審查，公務人員是我們國家很重要的一群服務人員，政府對於現職及退休人員的待遇，都應該衡平兼顧，公務人員相關退休撫卹制度的穩健，則是橫跨歷代政府希望完成的相關改革。過去我們的退撫基金曾經因為根本性問題，面臨即將破產的危機，在馬政府時期，曾經提出要推動年金改革，不過最後未能完成相關修法，直到2016年蔡政府上任之後，才開始著手推動年金改革的重大政策，透過制度的變革，解決月退休金起支年齡偏低、所得替代率偏高等問題，當時部長您也在人事總處服務……"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：充分的參與到推動年金改革方案的整個過程，現在提案委員所提出的修法主張和理由，相信部長您應該感到非常熟悉，首先想就教部長，您認為2018年以來，現行的這套制度實施成效為何？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，對整個基金財務健全來講，真的有很大的幫忙，因為它達成了……至少努力達成當初的一個方向，即希望能夠延後一個世代才破產，因為這樣的結果，所以政府挹注了二千七百七十多億，也因為有更多的錢進來，讓我們的年度收支從失衡轉向平衡，因此我們就有更多基金的錢可以進行投資，累積基金淨額。其實我們現在還有2.9兆負債，但是因為這些努力，估算如果可以繼續持續，大概可以維持到1.8兆左右的負債，等於是這中間，我們未來還會繼續再有新的錢進來，我想這是蠻重要的財務上的改善。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長您認為，以目前來看，還有沒有再實施改革的必要性？"],["施部長能傑：我覺得從基金要穩健的角度，我還是講，這個基金不是只有已退的人員會使用，還包括現職人員未來要一起使用這個基金。因為目前的狀況其實對財務貢獻是非常非常好，我個人是主張繼續讓它走完改革的方式，因為到118年以後，大概就停止調降所得替代率，在那個部分，未來我們的財務以估算來講，是真的可以比較穩健的達到140年。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們這次的修法有一個重點，是要提前停止退休所得替代率再繼續逐年遞減，就剛剛部長您說到118年才會停止的。當年年金改革所提出10年緩降的措施，應當是為了要減輕衝擊的力道，透過衡平考量來作為制度的調整，舒緩退休所得替代率偏高所造成的相關問題。如果即刻停止退休所得替代率降低，基金是不是又會面臨再次破產的一個危機？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們估算如果真的就停止的話，未來我們大概會減少2,800億的挹注，這個其實對基金來講是很大一個衝擊，會讓基金提早用罄。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，提早停止的話，降低所造成財務的缺口就會跑出來了，而退撫基金的收支失衡持續累積下去，受影響的不單是退撫基金本身，也有可能會衝擊到國家整體財政和相關的預算，所以政府應當讓年金制度能夠朝向合理化、健全化還有永續化的方向來發展。我還是要請教部長，未來我們應該如何來達成基金財務能夠永續的目標？"],["施部長能傑：我想除了繼續讓基金改革措施按照法律走以外，當然我們也會來努力做基金的財務投資，能夠讓它增加投資效益，這方面都是我們一起共同來努力的重點，重點在於增加投資的一個效益。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們在這次的修法當中，有很大的程度還是聚焦在退休所得替代率的一個上限，但我們站在照顧退休者的角度來看，是不是應該要著重於實際領到的金額？尤其我們看到這次銓敘部所提出的相關附表，顯示我們目前這種平均月退休金，大部分都在5萬塊以上，我想是否能夠維持基本的生活需求，因人而異，而且現職的人員待遇之間，他們衡平性也能夠再進行相關的討論。","我想請教部長，若我們依照現行的制度持續來調整退休所得替代率，會不會降到比其他的國家還低？還是說我們因為計算的方式不同，名目上的60%已經沒有反映實質的替代率了？"],["施部長能傑：我想，即使名目上維持在60%，跟OECD國家的平均值比，事實上都還是高一點，更何況名目上60%，實質上並不是60%。"],["陳委員俊宇：比其他國家還高？"],["施部長能傑：對，都比其他國家還高。如果我們的名目把它轉成實質的話，大概是在70%左右。"],["陳委員俊宇：70%左右，好，但我們物價通膨的因素確實也是存在啦，這也是一些退休人員所擔心的。短期物價的波動，也會影響到民生經濟，應該要有穩健合理的調整機制，加以保障並維持退休所得的實質購買力。銓敘部目前是透過什麼樣的機制，來減少物價通膨對退休人員生活的衝擊？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，其實我們現在都是根據法律明定，如果說CPI累計達到5%，我們就應該要檢討。所以過去這一段年改以後，事實上對退休人員的退休所得已經累計調整6%，當然如果沒有達到5%，我們還有另外一個機制，每4年也應該定期來檢視。其實我們兩次調整6%，第一次的物價指數還沒有達到5%，事實上，那時候是用每4年去調整它。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。先前我們跟考試院也探討過現況，公部門的人力正面臨一個非常大的困境，不但高普考的報考率10年來對砍，公部門離職率和流動率，也都相對的在提升。我想請教部長，改制會對現職的人員和新進人員造成什麼樣的影響？"],["施部長能傑：我們新進人員都已經實施專戶制了，所以專戶制跟我們現在討論這個基金是獨立的，所以對112年新進的人員來講，他們不會受我們今天討論的東西的影響，就是純粹就退休金來講。"],["陳委員俊宇：新進的就不會受影響？"],["施部長能傑：對，因為已經實施專戶制。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們大家都知道，下一個世代正面臨少子化，以及撫養比提高的挑戰，尤其明年臺灣即將進入超高齡的社會，年輕人肩負的壓力不斷上升，會造成退撫基金不幸的提前破產，該如何來補償權益受損的這些青年世代？"],["施部長能傑：所以，還是跟委員報告，我們銓敘部的職責，就是無論如何要讓這個基金財務能夠永續，讓現在適用這個基金的現職人員，他以後退休的時候能夠領得到，我想這是我們的責任。因此我們對於任何檢討的提案，我都認為應該要重視對財務基金的衝擊，當然還有社會不同聲音的討論。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長，今天一個早上到現在，我們也非常的清楚，維持現行的制度會是相對穩健衡平的一個作法，我們要保障公務人員權益的同時，讓年金制度能夠永續不破產，是我們共同的目標，但是也需要和社會來持續的溝通、尋求共識。剛剛主席也裁示，我們後續可能對於這個部分會來舉辦公聽會，以慎重的態度來討論年金改革，持續朝向世代財務穩健的一個目標來發展，讓年金破產的危機不再發生。我相信領得到、持續領，而且領到老、有保障，這個一定是我們軍公教各階層所有民眾所期待的目標，我希望我們相關部會能夠審慎地來處理這個案件。謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：依照先前宣告，我們現在休息，下午1點繼續開會，謝謝各位。","休息（12時7分）","繼續開會（13時2分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","下面我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d214d64dc45a1fb422531f80df82035e9d5f208e283d81e6f40465aa8e1d032cc685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"18:59:58 - 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朝野協商了就是身份證連署的事情要付身份證影本那另外還有一個就是今天本來要去審查的就是說這個我們要把它加嚴那就是說除了這個身份證影本之外你這個罷免的票數要比當選的票數還要高這就是鳥籠罷免那其實剛剛"},{"start":54.841,"end":77.601,"text":"很多委員都已經有提過了那我先問這一個內政部劉部長請問一下我今天看到一則新聞他就說這一個內政部這個解除這個前南投縣這個十起委員議員他是中配的資格請問一下為什麼是所以他已經這一個卸任了那為什麼是解除他的資格"},{"start":78.061,"end":105.818,"text":"是,因為我們根據國籍法二十條就是說有這個具有中國籍的這個台灣的這個有戶籍的這個人參選他當選上以後根據國籍法呢他應該要放棄他國國籍那給他們一年的時間來放棄那因為十選院議員呢他是遞補上去的所以呢在那個南投縣議會公告他當選以後呢他其實我們發現到說他在一年內啊"},{"start":106.818,"end":115.735,"text":"並沒有放棄他的他國國籍所以我們就引用國籍法已經發公文給石雪業本人還有南投縣議會就解除他的議員的職務"},{"start":117.458,"end":146.35,"text":"所以說他沒有放棄中國的國籍就對了嗎目前是這樣子有沒有放棄中國國籍這是第一個在我們的相關的護意證系統裡面查不到那要希望他能夠提出他具體的證明說他有沒有放棄那我們也問過南投縣議會南投縣議會應該在一年前就知道這個部分那南投縣議會也沒有辦法回應這個問題所以我們的判斷是他並沒有放棄就是他沒有辦法提出證明他有放棄中國的國籍就對了是"},{"start":147.21,"end":152.677,"text":"按照國籍法第十條規定外國人不得擔任總統副總統國籍法第20條也規定說中華民國國民取得外國國籍者"},{"start":162.468,"end":182.171,"text":"不得擔任中華民國的公職然後呢總統副總統選舉罷免法也規定說具有外國國籍者不得申請登記為總統副總統候選人這規定很清楚但是呢關於這個縣市首長立法委員或是說什麼縣市議員有沒有說具有雙重國籍不能登記參選"},{"start":184.236,"end":204.546,"text":"他只要是符合選罷法的規定涉及在我們他的選區裡面四個月以上他是具有中華民國國籍符合涉及的要件即便是他有外國的國籍所謂的雙重國籍並無礙於他的候選人的資格"},{"start":204.986,"end":207.108,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":220.179,"end":233.546,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案�"},{"start":239.329,"end":263.695,"text":"就是你就是當選無效嘛是不是要解職要解職好那我現在問一個比較實際的問題我剛才看到這個陸委會他最新的一個民調有74%的人認為中配擔任立法委員等公職需要放棄中華人民共和國的國籍這是我剛才看到這個陸委會最新的民調74%認為說如果是中配啊"},{"start":265.776,"end":271.543,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":286.019,"end":308.567,"text":"報告委員在立法委員宣誓的那一天是對著大法官宣誓的所以你們會有個拒絕書就是要克遵中華民國的憲法那還有我了解就是立法委員也要簽一個沒有這個其他國籍的這樣子的拒絕書所以他在當選的那一天就已經告訴這個臺灣的中華民國的人民說他已經只有具備中華民國國籍"},{"start":309.907,"end":314.169,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":330.597,"end":358.576,"text":"這個要由立法院來決定因為第一個是如果他現在是當選的狀態當中要解職不符合國籍法的規定要解職的話要由立法院來告訴他他被解職因為這是一層一層轉這個層轉上去的那由立法院來決定說他在這個服務的這個時間呢他需不需要退還他在立法委員裡面所取得的薪水及其他相關的薪資補貼"},{"start":360.357,"end":383.35,"text":"我是想其實我們這個公職人員選舉罷免法應該做個修正因為你現在就是說雙重國籍你可以參選但是你如果當選之後你要才能放棄一年之內放棄會有這個一年的空窗期其實應該像這個總統副總統選舉罷免法一樣就是說你如果具有雙重國籍的話其實你就不能登記參選或是說你如果是不分區的話你就是不能登記為這個不分區的候選人"},{"start":385.251,"end":387.552,"text":"委員報告選罷法第六十七條被取消,註銷當選立法委員的資格,現在引用國籍法為原則。"},{"start":400.317,"end":428.543,"text":"我是希望說不要有這個漏洞或是空窗期就變成說大家就是你在參選的時候具有雙重國籍那變成說你當選一年之內你才要放棄那就會衍生成說像現在這個民眾黨的他這個不分區的立委或是像這一個南投縣這個議員一樣明明具有這一個雙重國籍但是他一樣可以這個登記為不分區或是一樣可以來參選縣市議員甚至搞不好參選立委都有可能"},{"start":429.803,"end":433.607,"text":"報告委員,就我所了解,包括縣市議會、臺北市議會跟高雄市議會都曾經把我們在民國98年的時候所謂國籍法裡面不允許雙重國籍的部分發給其他的當選的議員,請他們簽所以事實上確實有議員本身因為有雙重國籍然後被取消他的當選資格的"},{"start":452.944,"end":477.573,"text":"所以我還是一樣就是第一個議會自己本身其實就是所謂的這個民意代表的一個主管機關它是否具有雙重國籍還是按照國籍法的規定能夠做嚴格的把關那立法院咧那我也知道立法院就是要立法院要立法院譬如說可能要立法院院會通過那那個我也知道有些立委也提出比較嚴格的這個修正案謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1970,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（19時）謝謝主席，我們請劉部長及李主委，等一下我質詢時會就教於這二位。"],["主席：請劉部長、李主委。"],["李委員坤城：今天一整天問的都是關於這個鳥籠罷免的事情，其實已經有一條在朝野協商了，也就是連署要附上身分證影本。另外，今天本來要審查的是將條件加嚴，除了需要身分證影本之外，罷免的票數必須比當選的票數還要高，這個就是鳥籠罷免。剛剛很多委員都已經提過，但我還是要請問內政部劉部長，今天看到一則新聞，內政部解除前南投縣中配史雪燕的議員資格，其實她已經卸任了，為什麼還要解除她的資格？"],["劉部長世芳：是，根據國籍法第二十條，具有中國籍並在臺灣有戶籍者參選，在其當選後應該要放棄他國國籍，並給予一年的時間放棄，因為史雪燕議員是遞補當選，在南投縣議會公告她當選之後，我們發現她在一年內並未放棄他國國籍，因此，我們就引用國籍法的規定發公文給史雪燕本人及南投縣議會，解除她的議員職務。"],["李委員坤城：也就是她沒有放棄中國的國籍就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：目前是這個樣子，有沒有放棄中國國籍，第一個，在我們相關的戶役政系統裡查不到，希望她能提出具體證明，到底有沒有放棄。我們也問過南投縣議會，南投縣議會應該在一年前就知道這個部分，但南投縣議會也沒辦法回答這個問題，所以我們的判斷是她並沒有放棄。"],["李委員坤城：就是她無法提出證明自己已經放棄中國國籍就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下，李主委，按照國籍法第十條的規定，外國人不得擔任總統、副總統，包含立法委員也不行嘛！國籍法第二十條也規定，中華民國國民取得外國國籍者，不得擔任中華民國的公職。總統、副總統的選舉罷免法也規定，具有外國國籍者，不得申請登記為總統、副總統候選人，這些規定都很清楚，但針對縣市首長、立法委員或縣市議員是否有規定具雙重國籍者不得參選？"],["李主任委員進勇：只要是符合選罷法的規定，設籍於該選區內4個月以上，而且具有中華民國國籍並符合設籍的要件，即便是具有外國的國籍，也就是所謂的雙重國籍，並無礙於其候選人的資格，他是可以參選的……"],["李委員坤城：他是可以參選的。"],["李主任委員進勇：只不過，如果選上之後，他就必須在就職前提出放棄……"],["李委員坤城：這是國籍法第二十條的規定嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：在一年之內必須要完成放棄。"],["李委員坤城：這裡就出現了一個矛盾之處！對於總統、副總統的規定很清楚，如果具有雙重國籍、外國籍就不能登記參選，但是對於縣市首長或其他民意代表都沒有這樣的規定，也就是說，具有雙重國籍者可以參選，但是當選一年內沒有放棄國籍就是當選無效，是不是？"],["李主任委員進勇：要解職。"],["李委員坤城：根據陸委會最新的民調，有74%的人認為中配擔任立法委員等公職需要放棄中華人民共和國的國籍，這是陸委會最新的民調，74%的人認為中配要擔任立法委員必須放棄中華人民共和國的國籍。現在我想問一個實際的問題，如果這個民眾黨的不分區立委有機會遞補的話，他是中配，是否要提出申請拋棄中國國籍的文件？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在立法委員就職那一天是對著大法官宣誓，會有一份具結書，就是要恪遵中華民國的憲法。此外，根據我的了解，立法委員也必須簽署一份無他國國籍的具結書。因此，在當選的那一天，他就已經告訴中華民國的人民，自己只有中華民國的國籍。因為我們要給他一點作業的時間、緩衝的時間，如果他在一年內沒有完成放棄的話，那麼他就會被解職、無法繼續擔任中華民國的立法委員。"],["李委員坤城：如果他已經就職，一直到他解職之前，擔任立委這段時間的薪資及助理費要繳回嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：這個要由立法院決定，第一個，如果是在當選的狀態中，因不符合國籍法的規定必須解職的話，必須由立法院告知他被解職，因為這是一層一層層轉上去的，並由立法院決定他是否需要退還擔任立法委員時所取得的薪水及其他相關的薪資補貼。"],["李委員坤城：我認為公職人員選舉罷免法應該要修正，根據現行規定，具雙重國籍者可以參選，但是當選後必須在一年內放棄他國國籍，這樣就會有一年的空窗期，因此，應該像總統、副總統選舉罷免法一樣，具有雙重國籍者就不能登記參選、也不能登記為不分區立委的候選人。"],["劉部長世芳：是，報告委員，以前的選罷法第六十七條後來被取消掉，就是會註銷他當選立法委員的資格，但是因為過去被註銷掉，所以現在都是引用國籍法為原則。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望不要有這個漏洞或空窗期，不然，參選時可以具有雙重國籍，當選一年之內才要放棄，於是就衍生出像這個民眾黨的不分區立委或這個南投縣議員一樣，明明就具有雙重國籍卻一樣可以登記為不分區立委或一樣可以參選縣市議員，甚至搞不好參選立委都有可能啊！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，就我所了解，包括縣市議會、臺北市議會及高雄市議會，都曾經把民國98年國籍法不允許雙重國籍的規定發給當選的議員並請他們簽署，因此，事實上，確實有議員本身因為具有雙重國籍而被取消當選資格。我必須要說，第一個，議會本身就是民意代表的主管機關，針對議員是否具有雙重國籍，還是要根據國籍法規定進行嚴格的把關，我也知道……"],["李委員坤城：立法院呢？"],["劉部長世芳：當然就是要立法院。"],["李委員坤城：要立法院。"],["劉部長世芳：要立法院，譬如可能要立法院院會通過，我也知道有些立委提出了比較嚴格的修正案。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝部長、謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：接著請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","蔡其昌委員、蔡其昌委員、蔡其昌委員不在。","馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員不在。","賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員不在。","王世堅委員、王世堅委員、王世堅委員不在。","陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","林岱樺委員、林岱樺委員、林岱樺委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場者，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員高金素梅、鄭正鈐及洪孟楷所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一周內以書面答復並副知本會。本日議程討論事項一所列之預算案另定期繼續審查，相關預算提案請於113年12月16日星期一中午12點前送至內政委員會彙整，以利後續審查作業進行。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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有例如第八屆的平地原住民立委他在2013年被判刑定讞"},{"start":138.53,"end":151.399,"text":"解除職務。從2013到2016改選前那個時候立法院就少了一個原名立委嚴重的傷害我們的參政權所以本席有提出過選報法70條、71條、73條希望能夠去做如果一旦有缺額就有補選或遞補的規定但是很遺憾沒有引起共鳴"},{"start":163.479,"end":180.245,"text":"那另外我也要提大家都知道我們原住民立委很辛苦因為選區很大為什麼?憲法增修條文在2005年的時候國民大會覆決通過了所以立委第七屆的席次減半變為113席從那個時候開始區域立委是單一選區多數決"},{"start":186.767,"end":204,"text":"我們原住民立委又來了跟地方民代相同複數選區單計非讓渡投票次這讓我們疲於奔命最沒有經濟能力的原住民立委不論是在選舉或者是在服務"},{"start":205.745,"end":215.892,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修"},{"start":235.213,"end":255.663,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修"},{"start":262.236,"end":283.124,"text":"我們原住民立委很難以世代交替然後很快速的我再跟部長再講一個問題這個問題我質詢過11次就是我們原住民在都會區沒有憲法保障祕密投票高達3663間也就是原住民開票所的五分之一投票及亮票"},{"start":284.264,"end":304.969,"text":"降低我們的投票意願所以我也說要修第十七條能不能夠中選會這個地方同意我們不再急於轉投票還有幽靈人口更可怕因為我們原住民自從有了刑法的第146條的徵修慘了一選完舉很多人就去抓"},{"start":306.289,"end":326.4,"text":"誰是投票前回來的,即便是他的侄女、他的表妹,通通都觸犯刑法146條。所以呢,我也希望能夠修正選罷法第57條的第三項,能夠不受第17條第一項的限制,因在戶籍地投票的限制。好,以上我只是要表達感慨。我們原住民的這一些問題,"},{"start":331.293,"end":333.895,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 三、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1953,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（18時53分）謝謝主席，有請內政部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好，辛苦了。我過去在內政委員會常常來質詢關於原住民的選制跟選政，我想要跟部長分享一下，因為這些問題，每一題我都問過很多次，我也有很多的提案版本，但是好像一直被漠視，也一直沒有獲得解決，所以這一次看到選罷法修正案能夠受到這麼大的關注，我個人滿羨慕的，我也希望大家一起來重視原住民的選舉需求。","第一個部分要提到的就是關於憲法保障原住民有6席立委，但是我們的選罷法卻允許缺額的狀況，怎麼說呢？因為選罷法第七十條第二項後段的規定是把原住民立委跟直轄市議員、縣（市）議員、鄉（鎮、市）民代表、原住民區民代表視同一樣，就是同一個選舉區內缺額達二分之一的時候，才能夠進行補選投票。也就是說，按照我們現在的情況，山原假設有3位，如果要達到二分之一以上是怎麼樣呢？二分之一就是要2位，要缺額2位才能補選，3個立委2個出事才能補選！如果單一來看，假設山原缺1個、平原缺1個，等同6個立法委員缺2個，其實也都不能補選。","這樣的狀況以前有沒有發生？有，例如第8屆的平地原住民立委在2013年被判刑定讞解除職務，從2013年到2016年改選前，立法院就少了一個原民立委，嚴重的傷害我們的參政權，所以本席有提出過選罷法第七十條、第七十一條及第七十三條的修正案，希望一旦有缺額就有補選或遞補的規定，但是很遺憾，沒有引起共鳴。","另外，我也要提，大家都知道我們原住民立委很辛苦，因為選區很大，為什麼？憲法增修條文在2005年的時候國民大會複決通過了，所以第7屆立委的席次減半，變為113席，從那個時候開始，區域立委是單一選區多數決，我們原住民立委，又來了，跟地方民代相同是複數選區單記非讓渡投票制，這讓我們疲於奔命。最沒有經濟能力的原住民立委，不論是在選舉或者是在服務，都是那麼大的、等同總統的選區，所以我想要問一下部長，哪一條法律告訴我們，原住民的選區一定要全國？這個選區劃分是誰的權責？"],["劉部長世芳：選區的劃分好像是由中選會來訂定。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們的選務機關嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為時間的關係，我就直接講，我希望修正選罷法第三十五條，讓我們的選舉區能夠有所改變，因為我們要面對的問題是，不但有山原、平原這個憲法給我們匡住的毫無意義或者是殖民分類，現在全國的原住民根本沒有在分啊，根本沒有在分，全國哪裡都可以住啊，然後這造成了什麼？萬年立委！我們的年輕人很難挑戰，我們原住民立委很難以世代交替。","然後很快速的，我再跟部長講一個問題，這個問題我質詢過11次，就是我們原住民在都會區沒有憲法保障的秘密投票，高達3,663間投票所，也就是原住民開票所的五分之一，投票即亮票，降低我們的投票意願，所以我也說過要修第十七條，能不能夠請中選會在這個地方同意我們不在籍移轉投票？還有幽靈人口更可怕，因為我們原住民自從有了刑法第一百四十六條的增修，慘了，一選舉完很多人就去抓，看誰是投票前回來的，即便是他的子女、他的表妹統統都觸犯刑法第一百四十六條，所以我也希望能夠修正選罷法第五十七條第三項，能夠不受第十七條第一項「應在戶籍地投票」的限制。","以上我只是要表達感慨，我們原住民的這些問題，每一個議題我都不知道已經質詢過多少次，也有提案版本，但從來沒有獲得大家的共鳴，內心很難過，希望我們的選政單位、選務單位，還有各位立委同仁，我們大家一起努力，好不好？還有很多的事情是值得我們努力的，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝伍委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員。","接下來請傅崐萁總召。傅崐萁總召，傅崐萁總召不在。","廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員，廖先翔委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","林德福委員、林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","王定宇委員、王定宇委員，王定宇委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員不在。","請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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["劉部長世芳：如果沒過，我再來拜託劉委員，不過我相信會過啦。"],["劉委員建國：你只有拜託我一個也沒用，雖然我們同宗同姓，但是也不必然你拜託我，我就有能力處理啊，這是要大家有共識的嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我跟委員報告，因為我們在事前有跟每個會處理到這個部分的黨團或什麼的都有請教過，沒有人會反對這一案啦。"],["劉委員建國：我相信當然沒人敢反對這案，不是沒人會反對，是沒人敢反對，但是因為我擔心預算的審查程序所拖延的時間，如果到1月21號才完成三讀，而過年是1月28號，這樣你的作業有辦法在過年前讓他們領到這筆錢嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒關係，如果我們知道這個一定會通過，我們會先去借啦，先去借來發。"],["劉委員建國：你去借是一回事，你有錢是一回事，但你要執行預算一定是三讀通過後才能去執行嘛，你不可能提早執行嘛，你要怎麼去提早執行？你提早執行就代表你們沒有依照相關程序在走了！"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是它是一個法定支出啦。"],["劉委員建國：是啊，是一個法定支出沒有錯啊！"],["劉部長世芳：法定支出有點像是譬如我們公務人員的薪水，就算預算還沒有過，1月的薪水還是要照發，也是一樣的意思啦。"],["劉委員建國：但是這1.5個月的補助費是新增項目喔！"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是它是法定支出，所以我們……"],["劉委員建國：是法定支出我知道，沒有錯啦！"],["劉部長世芳：我們有跟主計單位問過了，他們覺得這是一個……"],["劉委員建國：你來得及就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，你在這邊有講這樣就好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝劉委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱議瑩委員。邱議瑩委員，邱議瑩委員不到。","請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":90.051,"end":113.104,"text":"對,我相信尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙、紡織的工作一個非常重要的提醒不管是對長輩或是對青少年我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件所以我覺得光是這件事情我們就應該更努力地讓全國人民知道如果真的藍白的法案通過之後光是身份證這件事情我覺得是一般人民會有同感的接下來,像這樣子"},{"start":114.685,"end":119.231,"text":"二、審查委員董固自己權利的法案,若通過之後,是否再度增加參與政治不平等的機會,偏袒既得權利者?"},{"start":129.804,"end":151.573,"text":"也就是說如果罷免的門檻變這麼困難然後不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感越來越沒有信心認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了這個直接的是限制了人民的罷免權"},{"start":153.213,"end":176.821,"text":"當然反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此而避免或者是躲過這個被罷免的可能性這個反射的利益會存在對沒錯我認為這件事情應該讓更多人知道接下來我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度"},{"start":177.961,"end":201.922,"text":"尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告我們久久才能夠看到他甚至於跟我在同樣一個交易文化委員會的業員之委員他連第一次要質詢的時候他都搞不清楚狀況他錯過了第一次的質詢我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表一旦藍白的法案通過之後把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難是不是我們就更難以"},{"start":204.944,"end":205.966,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":211.777,"end":220.062,"text":"公職人員如何去行使他的職權,如何去經營他的選民,這個每個人可能都有不同的方式,所以這點我們就無從評論。"},{"start":241.076,"end":261.878,"text":"大致大家對於政治越來越冷感公民參與社會討論議題的可能性跟範圍也會越縮越小所以我認為我們今天之所以花這麼長的時間討論就是希望避免剛剛那個狀況當然我希望後續我們還有很多事情要討論跟積極的進行到時候再請主委我們一起努力好嗎好謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席我非常準時"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1885,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（18時43分）謝謝主席，有請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委好。我們今天在這邊一整天，我的朋友在線上問我，你們到底在談什麼？大家已經有點看不懂了，我就解釋給他，我說了國民黨的提案，有關得票數的部分跟身分證的部分，我的朋友就聽懂了，然後我的朋友問我，這樣到底會對民主政治造成什麼傷害？我就做了一些結論。主委可不可以從您過去從事政治工作的經驗、參與臺灣民主自由的經驗來告訴我，我的總結對不對。我認為如果按照藍、白的提案，會有一個很大部分的疑慮就是，當要我們的國民交出身分證的時候，其實可能會降低人民對於政治的信任度，這個部分你認同嗎？也就是說，如果我的資料是可以被國家這樣掌控的，如果國家用這樣的權力來強迫人民，其實會讓人民對於民主政治是越來越沒有信心。"],["李主任委員進勇：交出身分證牽涉到個人資料的部分，國民是會有戒心的，這個戒心也許是來自於對政府的不信任，也許是來自於對詐騙集團的憂慮，都有可能。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我相信，尤其是內政部這麼積極地在做很多詐騙防制工作，一個非常重要的提醒，不管是對長輩或是對青少年，我們都告訴大家不要隨便交出證件，所以我覺得光是這件事情，我們就應該要更努力地讓全國人民知道，如果真的照藍、白的法案通過之後，光是身分證這件事情，我覺得一般人民會有同感的。","接下來，像這樣子鞏固自己權力的法案，我必須要這麼定義它，鞏固自己權力的法案如果通過之後，是不是再度增加了參與政治的不平等的機會，偏袒既得權力者？我這樣的結論，你覺得你可以接受嗎？也就是說，如果罷免的門檻變得這麼困難，不適任的民意代表這麼難以被罷免，其實人民就會對政治越來越冷感、越來越沒有信心，認為都是你們這些在搞政治的人自己玩就好了，於是民意代表被監督的強度跟機會也就降低了。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個直接的限制了人民的罷免權，當然，反射的利益是不是有些公職人員會因此而避免或是躲過被罷免的可能性，這個反射的利益會存在。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，我認為這件事情應該要讓更多人知道。","接下來，我認為回到我們自己身為民意代表身上，我們會不會就因此降低了對政治工作負責任的態度？尤其是現在我們看到很多立法委員一天到晚在上通告，我們久久才能夠看到他，甚至於跟我同樣在教育及文化委員會的葉元之委員，他連第一次要質詢的時候都搞不清楚狀況，他錯過了第一次的質詢，我認為這樣是一個非常不及格的民意代表，一旦藍、白的法案通過之後，把這個罷免的門檻變得這麼難，是不是我們就更難以去處理像這樣子不認真的民意代表、不負責的民意代表？"],["李主任委員進勇：公職人員如何去行使他的職權，如何去經營他的選民，每個人可能都有不同的方式，所以這一點我們就無從評論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題。最後一個，我告訴我朋友最後一個非常重要的事情，我認為它會削弱自由民主的正當性，怎麼說？因為民主的正當性來自於程序的公平及公民的廣泛參與，如果這個制度設計是在偏袒當權者、偏袒這些既得利益者，我認為長此以往將導致大家對於政治越來越冷感，公民參與社會討論議題的可能性跟範圍也會越縮越小。所以我認為我們今天之所以花這麼長的時間討論，就是希望避免剛剛的那個狀況，當然後續我們還有很多事情要討論跟積極的進行，到時候再請主委跟我們一起努力，好嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席，我非常準時。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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來請陳瑩委員。等一下陳瑩委員質詢完，我們讓部長、主委及行政人員可以休息5分鐘用洗手間。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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大家都提到投票日前前十日禁止公佈民調要來做這次修法要調整為三日其實爭議是很大在選舉的理論裡面有一個著名的理論叫做漏斗理論"},{"start":32.643,"end":58.937,"text":"漏斗理論就是選舉活動剛開始的時候大家考慮的因素會很多會有你的社會的狀況突發的事件你的經濟實力或者是你的族群的態度或者是相關性別議題各種因素然後到選舉越來越接近的時候這些因素會逐漸的去除然後到最後才會有一個選擇這個選擇就是所謂的冷靜期"},{"start":63.715,"end":80.938,"text":"好各位同學先休息一下剛才提到這個漏斗理論最重要就是到最後會做一個純粹的選擇你要投給誰那現在這個前十日的要調整為三日啊這"},{"start":83.086,"end":104.085,"text":"民調對於選舉的衝擊是非常大的不管是以前的臺北市長的選舉或是宋楚瑜參選總統的選舉或是這一次的總統大選的選舉都可以看到假民調的衝刺對選情的一個衝擊那這一次會做這樣的一個提案的一個"},{"start":105.293,"end":113.871,"text":"做修正啊我認為是萬萬不能接受啊這個會讓假民調更為充斥要讓民眾去理解或者是"},{"start":115.051,"end":133.442,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第"},{"start":140.126,"end":156.458,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十"},{"start":167.566,"end":185.014,"text":"必須要低於當選票這個是非常奇特的一個政治的設計我們限縮人民罷免的權利這是反公民的行為這是非常離譜的然後我們看到所謂的選舉罷免"},{"start":186.795,"end":189.697,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":198.905,"end":226.743,"text":"如果說我們要把這個罷免能夠成立你的同意票要高於你的當選的一個票數的話這無疑是限制人民的基本的一個罷免的權利這在我們的憲政體制跟政治制度的設計是相違反的這個問題是非常嚴重那其實在多數的民主國家他們都是"},{"start":227.583,"end":227.843,"text":"二、審查委員"},{"start":245.99,"end":266.366,"text":"其實相關的議題我已經在今天說明了很多次了每次講的也都差不多了所以是不是容許我也許各位請各位不要介意容許我用另外一種方式來表達也就是剛剛提到的這個選舉的票"},{"start":267.086,"end":273.03,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":297.046,"end":306.978,"text":"身為立法委員保障人民的權利是我們最基本的責任不是去限縮人民的權利這是我一再要提醒各位的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1805,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（18時18分）謝謝召委。請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，你好。大家都提到投票前10日禁止公布民調，這次修法要調整為3日，其實這個爭議是很大的。在選舉理論裡面，有一個著名的漏斗理論，就是選舉活動剛開始的時候，大家考慮的因素很多，包括社會狀況，突發事件、經濟實力，或者是族群態度，或者相關性別的議題等各種因素，到選舉越來越接近的時候，這些因素會逐漸去除，最後會產生一個選擇，這個選擇就是所謂的冷靜期。","好，各位同學，先休息一下。剛才提到漏斗理論，最重要的，就是到最後會做一個純粹的選擇，也就是你要投給誰。現在要將前10日調整為前3日，但民調對選舉的衝擊是非常大的，不管是以前的臺北市長選舉，或者是宋楚瑜參選總統的選舉，或是這一次總統大選的選舉，都可以看到假民調的充斥對選情的衝擊，所以對於這一次提案的修正，我認為是萬萬不能接受，這會讓假民調更為充斥，要讓民眾理解或者是要去做澄清的時候，根本沒有辦法去做處理，這對選舉公平性的影響非常大。請主委簡單說明一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：現在民調的包裝可能會做得非常非常精細，就是讓你不會覺得有異樣，突然之間看到就會相信了，所以要讓我們的選民能夠有足夠的時間去做分辨，當然最直接的是，這個候選人就這些民調認為有疑問時，他要去澄清，而這個澄清也需要相當的時間才能夠把它說清楚。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這是很重要的。今天在這邊質詢滿像在南機場夜市質詢，非常的熱鬧。我們提到說，這次的修法要求罷免的同意票數必須要高於當選票數，這個是非常奇特的一個政治設計，我們限縮了人民罷免的權利，這是反公民的行為耶，這是非常離譜的。然後我們看到所謂的選舉罷免，他們說票太少是民意的代表性不足，我要跟各位說明，不是民意代表性不足的問題，而是投票率的問題啦！如果我們修正讓罷免能夠成立的要件是同意票必須要高於當選票數的話，這無疑是限制人民基本的罷免權利，這在我們的憲政體制跟政治制度的設計是相違反的，這個問題是非常嚴重。其實在多數的民主國家，他們都是鼓勵民眾能夠實質的參與政治，但我們卻是開民主的倒車，這是非常莫名其妙的一件事情，如果修法通過之後，人民幾乎是沒有罷免的權利了。請主委最後簡單的說明。"],["李主任委員進勇：其實相關的議題我已經在今天說明了很多次了，每次講的也都差不多，所以是不是請各位不要介意，容許我用另外一種方式來表達？也就是剛剛提到的，當初選舉時的得票數如果多於罷免的同意票數的話，這個罷免就不成立，這有一點類似怎麼樣，我們把它比喻為用明朝的劍來殺清朝的官啦，這個罷免投票的時候就是清朝了，你用投票的選舉得票……"],["主席：主委，你要不要用書面回復？好不好？"],["李委員昆澤：好，謝謝召委。不過我還是要跟各位同仁簡單說明一下，身為立法委員，保障人民的權利是我們最基本的責任，不是去限縮人民的權利，這是我一再要提醒各位的。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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以上謝謝好 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席的期待，我們需要先召開公聽會，之後再審查相關議案，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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主委好 謝謝那我今天看今天的案子其實有6個不同的案子那因為我們現在只有4分鐘240秒啦所以我看一個案子大概就是只能問40秒左右顯然不是很合理啦所以呢我們就只能集中問幾個我比較關心的點是"},{"start":38.982,"end":53.957,"text":"那剛剛第一個就是冠廷有問到就是說關於這一個特定的政黨他會去使用別人的肖像啊什麼等等的之類那現在除了我們單純的譬如說請他不能夠這樣子以外或者說有一定的行政裁罰有什麼什麼預防的措施"},{"start":56.274,"end":77.931,"text":"我想這種現象大概分成兩種狀況有一種狀況我們也不能夠否認的政黨跟政黨之間的一個合縱連橫那也許會發生說不同政黨但是允許相當程度有一定的連結對但他有時候他的案例其實有時候可能是當然又惡意的"},{"start":78.451,"end":95.002,"text":"有惡意的連結希望造成選民認知的這個錯誤因此來作為他投票的依據也會有這種狀況對 因為我為什麼問這個很大的原因是因為他如果已經出現了結果後來才去裁罰或者去阻止那個傷害已經造成了"},{"start":95.923,"end":111.782,"text":"所以要有什麼預防的措施?譬如說假設他在看因為我們不可能他在刊登相關的廣告或者做任何的宣傳的時候要經過中選委員的審核這是不可能的事情所以也就是說這件事情我們即使在法律做了這樣的一個規定他可能還是很難去預防"},{"start":113.543,"end":127.917,"text":"中選會除了你這個廣告的這個內容是很明顯的違法的這個我們可以去處理之外那如果說認定上有困難的話其實中選會也無從尤其是沒有辦法及時的來做認定"},{"start":129.098,"end":149.545,"text":"這個就是手段跟目的的問題就是說我們今天很多的法律我們在制定的時候我們會想要達到一個目的但那個手段可能不一定足夠但反過來講有時候手段可能會過多譬如說我們在這個已經剛剛我記得張祺凱委員在這邊在問關於這個身份證影本等等的事情我覺得他可能搞錯一件事情我覺得身份證影本其實已經出委員會了"},{"start":150.345,"end":150.665,"text":"二、審查委員蘇清泉等2"},{"start":168.012,"end":183.054,"text":"那我們今天要討論的案子呢不管是他的這個同意票必須要大於當時的這個票數他的罷免的這個目的到底是什麼其實中間也是沒有關聯性的照理說今天罷免照理說第一個他是人民要能夠行使他的政治的權利"},{"start":183.995,"end":202.403,"text":"所以他應該是第一個他的門檻絕對不能夠過高但是另外一個方面不能夠有權力的濫用但今天即使他定了同意票要大於這個當時當選的票數他根本就沒有辦法阻止權力濫用這件事情所以他最後只剩一個副作用就是他實質的提高罷免的門檻"},{"start":203.263,"end":220.621,"text":"那我覺得這當然是不能夠接受的事情但我最後還有一個問題因為時間不太夠我就說因為有六個六個一個只能問40秒這真的是不合理啦我不知道這個議程到底怎麼安排的但是我還是要問一下就是關於就是到底最後幾天才能夠明掉這件事情我覺得這個反而是值得討論的事"},{"start":221.882,"end":235.318,"text":"目前我看到翁委員的這個提案看來時間上有縮短那中選會當然在這一邊的態度是比較明顯的那有沒有什麼比較實質上的一個數據認為說到底是幾天不能夠發布才是比較妥當的"},{"start":236.57,"end":255.329,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":256.57,"end":284.15,"text":"我覺得主委這個答案很好,因為它有時候它並不是一個科學的問題,它是一個政治問題。政治的問題在立法院藉由朝野邪香得到一定的結論的時候,它其實就是應該各黨應該遵守了。那如果今天要用暴力的方式把它直接縮短,或者甚至把它延長都一樣,這個其實都是在破壞民主的精神。這跟我們今天要達到的目的其實是完全不合啦。那我最後還是要再講一次就是說,一個問題40秒真的太少了啦。好,謝謝主委。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1732,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（17時59分）抱歉，我不知道是到我了。有請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：主委好，謝謝。今天其實有六個不同的案子，因為我們發言時間只有4分鐘，240秒，所以一個案子大概只能問40秒左右，顯然不是很合理啦！所以只能集中問幾個本席比較關心的點。第一個，剛剛冠廷有問到，就是關於特定政黨使用別人的肖像等等，現在我們除了單純請他不能這樣做以外，或者還有一定的行政裁罰，除此之外還有什麼預防措施？"],["李主任委員進勇：這種現象大概分成兩種狀況，有一種狀況，這是我們也不能否認的，就是政黨和政黨之間的合縱連橫，也許會發生在不同政黨之間，但是允許有相當程度的連結，這是一個。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。但有時候這個案例可能是……"],["李主任委員進勇：當然，也有惡意的連結，希望造成選民認知錯誤，藉此做為他投票的依據，也會有這種狀況。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。為什麼本席問這個問題？很大的原因是，如果已經出現這種狀況，後來才去裁罰或者阻止，但是傷害已經造成了，所以有什麼預防措施？因為我們不可能規定他在刊登相關廣告，或者做任何宣傳的時候，要經過中選委的審核，這是不可能的事情。也就是說，針對這件事情，我們即使在法律上做了這樣的規定，可能還是很難預防，所以這個……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有。中選會除了廣告內容明顯違法可以處理之外，如果認定上有困難的話，其實中選會也沒有辦法即時認定。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這就是手段和目的的問題了。今天很多法律在制定的時候，我們是想要達到一個目的，可是手段可能不一定足夠，但是反過來說，有時候手段可能會過多。譬如本席記得剛剛張啓楷委員問了，關於身分證影本等事情，本席覺得他可能搞錯一件事情，因為身分證影本的部分其實已經送出委員會，根本就不在今天的議案裡面。但是，他那時候說的，例如死人連署等等，本席剛剛聽主委回答，其實在本來的機制裡面，我們就可以得知這是有問題的，然後予以剔除。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以使用影本的方式，有可能沒有辦法達到這個目的。我們今天要討論的案子，例如他的同意票必須大於當時的得票數，他的罷免目的到底是什麼？其實這中間並沒有關聯性。照理說罷免就是讓人民能夠行使他的政治權利，所以第一個，它的門檻絕對不能過高嘛！但是另外一方面，也不能夠有權利的濫用。今天即使規定同意票要大於當時當選的票數，但是根本就沒有辦法阻止權利濫用這件事情，所以最後只剩一個副作用，就是實質提高罷免的門檻，本席覺得這當然是不能接受的事情。","本席最後還有一個問題，但時間不太夠，因為有六個問題，一個問題只能問40秒，這真的不合理啦！本席不知道議程到底是怎麼安排的，但本席還是要問一下，關於到底最後幾天才能民調這件事情，本席覺得這反而是值得討論的事。目前本席看到的溫委員提案，看來時間是有縮短，中選會對這部分的態度比較明顯，但有沒有比較實質的數據，到底幾天前不能發布才是比較妥當的？"],["李主任委員進勇：絕對的標準大概很難訂定啦！世界各國採取的方式也很歧異。臺灣的規定是10天，這是在諸多主張裡面，朝野協商後的最大共識，所以才定為10天。"],["沈委員伯洋：本席覺得主委這個答案很好，因為它有時候並不是一個科學問題，而是一個政治問題。政治問題在立法院藉由朝野協商得到一定結論的時候，其實各黨就應該遵守。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：如果今天要用暴力的方式把它直接縮短，或者延長，其實都一樣，都是在破壞民主的精神，和我們今天要達到的目的完全不符合。本席最後還是要再說一次，一個問題40秒真的太少了，謝謝主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請郭昱晴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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時間才有辦法把它討論完。所以本席也要向在野黨的國會同事們再次強調，看看我們這麼多修正法案，和我們這幾次選舉遇到的問題，其實是很可怕的，不是只有我們兩個本土政黨在決鬥而已，還有來自中國的各種影響力，很多都是利用魚目混珠的方式干擾，這些都是存在的。","所以本席希望召委不要操之過急，有機會的話可以召開公聽會，我們針對這些問題好好討論，因為它除了影響我們之外，同時也會影響到你們，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請賴士葆委員。賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","請沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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對不對甚至是民主國家模範生"},{"start":177.04,"end":188.989,"text":"竟然堂堂在中華民國在台灣的國會制定出一個反民主的法案我們以後在國際社會敢說我們是民主國家的模範生嗎?我會覺得很害羞耶我會覺得很害羞台灣人你竟然制定出這麼反民主而且違憲的法案所有民眾都出來抗爭反對"},{"start":204.224,"end":213.814,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六"},{"start":214.491,"end":241.124,"text":"是 我是建議說是不是可以維持現在的選舉罷免制度因為我們都知道在立法院裡面政黨的競爭非常的激烈那表示說社會上如果是要求我們整體的社會是一個穩定發展的話不要隨便修改選舉罷免的條款或是門檻所以他把個人利益凌駕於國家利益把政黨利益凌駕於國家利益嘛 對不對從動機行為理論"},{"start":244.977,"end":245.798,"text":"主委同意嗎?時間到了,我要遵守時間。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1700,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（17時50分）質詢時間只有240秒啊！請中選會李主委、內政部劉部長。"],["主席：請李主委、劉部長。"],["邱委員志偉：部長好像坐的比較久一點，起來活絡、活絡筋骨。","不管主委或者部長，你們都擔任過立法委員，也擔任過地方的行政首長，身為一個立委，你要思考國家的利益、全民的利益，制定的法律要福國利民，而不是禍國殃民，制定的法律要得到大家的支持、全民的支持，才能可長可久，制定的法律要符合民主的要求，不能制定出反民主、屠殺民主的法律。","本席看了這個修正案，晚上都睡不著。站在政治工作者的立場，李主委，你看了這個修正案會不會覺得憂心啊？罷免權是民主國家的基本規範，對不對？這個案子一旦修法完成，事實上讓罷免權是名存實亡，臺灣永遠不可能有任何罷免案成立。你同意嗎？李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會做為一個選務的執行機關，對於一般人民的選舉權，尤其是憲法保證的參政權，我們要予以維護，而且責無旁貸，所以……"],["邱委員志偉：修法之後，你們有辦法維護嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：所以我們一定要把話說清楚，這樣的修法……"],["邱委員志偉：你憂不憂心？"],["李主任委員進勇：憂心。這樣的修法違反憲法保障的參政權。"],["邱委員志偉：反民主，也違憲，對不對？我們憂心忡忡啊！晚上都睡不著。請教一下劉部長，你會不會憂心忡忡？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心。我的觀點和李主委一樣，因為人民的參政權本來就是選舉、罷免、創制、複決，如果罷免的門檻提高，其實就是變相剝奪人民的罷免權，這對未來的政治發展不會是正面的，我們希望能夠充分保障……"],["邱委員志偉：我們自詡為民主國家，對不對？甚至是民主國家的模範生，但是在中華民國臺灣的國會，竟然要制定一個反民主的法案，我們以後在國際社會還敢說自己是民主國家的模範生嗎？本席會覺得羞愧，因為臺灣的立法院竟然制定這麼反民主，而且違憲的法案，導致所有民眾都出來抗爭、反對，真的是天怒人怨。部長，你有沒有好的解方？讓本席憂心忡忡的指數能夠下降一點。"],["劉部長世芳：我建議是不是可以維持現在的選舉罷免制度？因為我們都知道，在立法院裡面，政黨的競爭非常激烈，如果要讓整體社會穩定發展的話，不要隨便修改選舉、罷免的條款或是門檻。"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛！所以他們是把個人利益凌駕於國家利益，政黨利益凌駕於國家利益嘛！對不對？從動機行為理論來看，你為什麼會有這個行為，背後一定有一個動機，如果這個動機是邪惡的，如果這個動機是基於個人利益，那就是一個懦夫，只有懦夫會提出這種法案，因為你經不起檢驗，不敢接受民意的洗禮。主委同意嗎？","本席發言的時間到了，本席要遵守時間。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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出來的"},{"start":39.21,"end":60.645,"text":"主委你應該知道以我們現在現行的法規在投票前的晚上10點鐘就禁止在媒體上面的宣傳然後一般民眾在社群媒體當中是過了12點鐘也就是跨過隔天在社群媒體上面就不能宣傳對嗎?是那這是依照哪一條法律?法條"},{"start":66.53,"end":88.161,"text":"好我來告訴你好了這個就是剛剛吳佩儀有提到的就是我們的選罷法第56條好那麼如果根據現在國民黨他們的提議跟提案在一年前就不可以講那麼我們都知道如果說有人違反選罷法在投票前10點鐘如果現在現場有媒體在10點以後還幫特定的候選人來宣傳是由誰來負責開罰"},{"start":94.85,"end":98.934,"text":"中選會嗎?還是NCC?是中選會還是NCC?是中選會。中選會嘛,對不對?活動期間。非活動期間嘛,對不對?就是過了選舉的截止宣傳的時候,那社群媒體,我們過去有一些案例,在投票的當天還有人發社群媒體來幫特定候選人宣傳,是不是也是中選會來負責開罰?是的。"},{"start":121.334,"end":142.881,"text":"好 那我就請問了如果說那像現在這個法規過去了之後我在社群媒體當中我只要提到罷免我只要在電視台提到罷免就一律都要開法是這個意思嗎在未滿一年的情況底下是不是罷免這兩個字變成了不能說的話台灣是不是變成是一個言論自由"},{"start":150.564,"end":158.748,"text":"前置的國家。這幾天國民黨一直在考試民進黨說要戒嚴啦。我心想說現在國民黨是不是要用透過選罷法來實施另外一種戒嚴。就是讓罷免這兩個字連講都不能講。"},{"start":169.031,"end":181.779,"text":"所以這個是另外一個層次的問題在一年以前對於任何人做罷免的倡議倡議這兩個字就是我現在講出來那我的意思是說今天如果有人寫臉書今天現在在後面還有四台攝影機"},{"start":189.843,"end":199.568,"text":"剛甚至於超過十台只要有哪一台講到罷免有某某某有罷免的意思是不是這些媒體通通被二司機抓去罰然後這些寫臉書的寫粹的寫賴的通通都要抓去裁罰"},{"start":208.231,"end":223.916,"text":"是這樣嗎?那這個是不是台灣要回到戒嚴的白色恐怖?所以我要說國民黨現在是不是透過修正選罷法要實施白色恐怖智慧的戒嚴讓罷免這兩個字是連講都不能講如果你告訴我你認為是不是這樣?主委"},{"start":228.052,"end":232.814,"text":"如果不是的話,那請問是要怎麼罰、怎麼抓或是怎麼樣來定義、提議或倡議,是怎麼界定?無從規範,中選會也無從去查處。"},{"start":243.451,"end":245.834,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案："},{"start":266.415,"end":268.556,"text":"審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1680,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（17時45分）謝謝主席。有請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：主委好。這個案子今天討論了一整天，雖然休息的時間非常長，但是發言時間只有4分鐘，所以本席要說快一點。本席要回應一下剛剛吳沛憶委員提到的問題，現在國民黨的版本其實就是司馬昭之心路人皆知，他們怕進入所謂的大罷免時代。現在前面有幾台媒體，本席也是媒體出來的，主委，你應該知道，現行法規是投票前一天晚上10點就禁止在媒體上宣傳，一般民眾在社群媒體是過了12點就不能宣傳，也就是跨過隔天，對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["林委員楚茵：這是依照哪一條法律？本席告訴你好了，剛剛吳沛憶也有提到，就是選罷法第五十六條，現在國民黨的提議和提案是一年前就不可以說，而我們都知道，如果有人違反選罷法，在投票前一天晚上10點以後還幫特定候選人宣傳，是由誰負責開罰？是中選會吧？還是NCC？"],["李主任委員進勇：是中選會。"],["林委員楚茵：中選會嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：活動期間。"],["林委員楚茵：因為那是非活動期間嘛！對不對？就是截止宣傳的時候。過去也有一些案例，就是投票當天還有人在社群媒體幫特定候選人宣傳，是不是也由中選會負責開罰？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["林委員楚茵：好。那本席就要請問了，如果現在這個法規通過，在社群媒體當中只要提到罷免，或者只要在電視台提到罷免，就一律要開罰，是這個意思嗎？在未滿一年的情況之下，罷免這兩個字是不是變成不能說？臺灣是不是變成一個言論自由受到箝制的國家？這幾天國民黨一直在諷刺民進黨說要戒嚴，本席不知道現在國民黨是不是要透過選罷法實施另外一種戒嚴，就是讓罷免這兩個字連說都不能說。"],["李主任委員進勇：所以這是另外一個層次的問題，在一年以前，對於任何人做罷免的倡議，這個是……"],["林委員楚茵：對，「倡議」這兩個字，就是我現在講出來喔！本席的意思是，今天如果有人在臉書貼文，或者像現在一樣，後面有4台攝影機，剛剛甚至超過10台，只要哪一台說到罷免某某某，只要有罷免的意思，這些媒體是不是通通會被NCC罰？這些寫臉書的、寫Threads的、寫LINE的，通通都要抓去裁罰，是這樣嗎？這樣臺灣是不是回到戒嚴時的白色恐怖？","所以本席要說的是，國民黨現在是不是透過修正選罷法實施白色恐怖的戒嚴，讓罷免這兩個字連說都不能說？你認為是不是這樣？主委。如果不是的話，請問現在要怎麼罰、怎麼抓？或是怎麼定義、提議或倡議？這要怎麼界定？"],["李主任委員進勇：無從規範，中選會也無從查處。而且這牽涉到個人的言論自由問題，所以我們認為這樣的規定並不適合。"],["林委員楚茵：所以本席要特別凸顯這個荒謬之處。身為一個立法委員，立法必須是可行的，如果不可行，或者變成對臺灣的言論自由戒嚴，甚至是罷免的戒嚴，或者沒收罷免權，那麼臺灣就是走回頭路。本席也要奉勸國民黨，不要在那邊一直諷刺民進黨，自己卻默默的、偷偷摸摸的、偷雞摸狗，要利用修選罷法實施戒嚴。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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有請李俊勇主委好 請李主委主委好 主委您的任期到現在幾年了我有五年多了五年多了嘛 從2019年好像六月就來了嘛 是的在你印象當中第九屆進來的時候到第十屆 第十屆的時候有沒有來審查這個選罷法類似今天的這樣的草案 有沒有"},{"start":38.632,"end":49.516,"text":"有關於門檻的問題在上一屆的時候我印象中沒有我跟你講上一屆的時候本席有提案你有沒有曉得本席有提案將門檻調高所以說這個我們內政委員會完全沒有討論"},{"start":54.378,"end":78.876,"text":"有本席在提出這個版本的內容當中被國民黨拿來做宣傳說郭國恩有提賴瑞榮也有提但是如果他們關心這個選罷法的門檻的話應該在上會期就應該做討論上會期兩年之前都沒有不理不睬突然之間來對這個選罷法門檻如此重視你不覺得會非常的奇怪嗎這是第一個第二個我的內容當中跟現階段國民黨版本也不一樣我還是從下一屆開始適用結果他們從什麼"},{"start":81.638,"end":101.915,"text":"沒有實行日期也就等於從這一屆就開始適用耶。這一頭就牽扯到大法官會議事案解釋的499號案的部分,有些所謂有自肥的嫌疑。這一頭當然你不方便講自肥啊,你是說法律上的適合性與否。但是以499號案來說的話是延任嘛,是任期的延長嘛,對不對。"},{"start":103.797,"end":131.019,"text":"但是如果防止罷免、阻礙罷免、閹割罷免的情況底下相對而言也是減少任期的縮短嘛防止任期的縮短嘛所以終歸來說一個任期的延長也好或者呢避免任期的縮短也好都是在保護任期嘛 對不對是的是的嘛 對不對所以499號案跟國民黨現在的這一個提案內容當中就異曲同工之妙嘛 是不是"},{"start":133.837,"end":151.328,"text":"主委 既然都是同本職都是一種任期保護當然有異曲同工之妙你這有些牽扯到自肥的問題嘛牽扯到自肥的問題再加上他不是從下一屆開始那不是很清楚就是違憲嗎主委不是嗎"},{"start":152.849,"end":177.145,"text":"這條文內容來說就很清楚啦都是一種任期的保護啊這不看就很清楚就是違憲的條款了嘛對不對再加上什麼這一次更糟糕的部分啊它是把門檻加高第一個不能宣傳是不是有這種條文對不對第二個要用身份證是不是身份證又可能會引起詐騙集團來藉故來收集這些各自的嫌疑嘛是不是對不對"},{"start":178.797,"end":192.107,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":209.662,"end":232.581,"text":"從哪邊支出?從哪邊動資?罷免如果是立委的話那是中央要編列預算當然是你編列預算啊一般而言你是用從第二準備金嘛對不對以前啊我查過嘛林昶佐的部分大概花了1500萬嘛陳柏惟的部分花了2000萬嘛我可以跟你講啊以後你這筆錢不用編那麼多了啦"},{"start":233.462,"end":245.724,"text":"如果國民黨的版本通過的話你這一筆錢根本不用到用得到的機會非常少因為大家看到門檻那麼高就不想進行罷免啊不想進行罷免的部分的話你這筆錢就不用花了嘛不是嗎"},{"start":246.496,"end":265.625,"text":"我們大概都不會編罷免的預算了。不會,但是你是動員第二預備金啦。是的。所以你第二預備金就不用編那麼多啦。所以這等於是國民黨自打嘴巴把蘇文當年留下來的所謂的這個罷免權把它閹割掉嘛。國民黨的這個徒子徒孫把他之前的蘇文所創建的這個罷免權把它去除掉嘛,不是嗎?"},{"start":266.605,"end":286.315,"text":"最後的結果我是覺得你這後面的預算其實就不用變那麼多了啦如果國民黨真的這個法案通過的話也是可以順便把這部分的預算法要刪除掉了其實國民黨就是最需要做的是什麼不是修改法案啦是修改自己的言行啦因為自己的言行道行逆施才會引起人民的不滿想要罷免你啦我覺得主席今天真的是操之過急讓我們時間講這麼短了等這麼久謝謝好謝謝郭國文委員接下來請林楚英委員"},{"start":296.719,"end":296.945,"text":"二、審查委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1649,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（17時40分）謝謝主席，有請李進勇主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。主委，您的任期到現在幾年了？"],["李主任委員進勇：五年多了，我的任期到明年11月。"],["郭委員國文：五年多了嘛！好像2019年6月就到職了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["郭委員國文：在你的印象當中，第9屆、第10屆有沒有審查類似今天這樣的選罷法草案？"],["李主任委員進勇：類似這樣的草案？"],["郭委員國文：對，就是有關門檻的問題，在上一屆的時候。"],["李主任委員進勇：我印象中沒有。"],["郭委員國文：沒有嘛！對不對？本席告訴你，上一屆的時候，本席有提案，你曉不曉得？本席有提案將門檻調高，但是內政委會完全沒有討論。本席提出這個版本的時候，被國民黨拿來做宣傳，說郭國文有提案、賴瑞隆也有提案，但是如果他們關心選罷法的門檻，上會期就應該討論，兩年前不理不睬，突然之間對選罷法門檻如此重視，你不覺得非常奇怪嗎？這是第一個。","第二個，本席提案的內容和現階段國民黨的版本不一樣，是從下一屆開始適用，但他們沒有執行日期，等於這一屆就開始適用，這就牽扯到大法官解釋第499號，有所謂的自肥嫌疑，當然你不方便說自肥，你是說法律上的適合性與否。但是以釋字第499號來說，這是延任，是任期的延長，對不對？但是防止罷免、阻礙罷免、閹割罷免，相對而言也是防止任期縮短。所以綜歸來說，是任期延長也好，或者避免任期縮短也好，都是在保護任期，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["郭委員國文：是嘛！對不對？所以釋字第499號和國民黨現在這個提案有異曲同工之妙，是不是？主委，你都說是啊！為什麼不是？對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["郭委員國文：既然是同本質，都是一種任期保護，當然有異曲同工之妙，這就牽扯到自肥的問題嘛！再加上它不是從下一屆開始，這樣不是很清楚就是違憲嗎？主委，不是嗎？就條文內容來說，都是一種任期的保護，這不是很清楚就是違憲的條款嘛！對不對？再加上什麼？這一次更糟糕的是把門檻加高，第一個，不能宣傳，是不是有這條條文？對不對？第二個，要用身分證，是不是？身分證有可能會引發詐騙集團藉故蒐集個資的嫌疑嘛！是不是？對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["郭委員國文：這樣的結果就會讓整個罷免權完全被閹割嘛！對不對？有沒有可能得到這樣的結果？"],["李主任委員進勇：會受到更多的限制。"],["郭委員國文：對，有很多的限制嘛！不論是程序上的限制，或實質內容的限制，在雙重限制之下，這個罷免權還有辦法行使嗎？主委，本席就教於您啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：是比較困難啦！"],["郭委員國文：當然非常困難嘛！為什麼？這和你們的預算有關聯。本席請問一下，以前你們編列預算時，罷免的經費用在哪裡？從哪邊動支？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果罷免立委的話，中央要編列預算。"],["郭委員國文：當然是你們編列預算啊！一般而言，你們是用第二預備金嘛！對不對？本席查過以前的狀況，林昶佐的部分大概花了1,500萬元，陳柏惟的部分花了2,000萬元。本席可以告訴你，以後這筆錢你們不用編列那麼多了啦！如果國民黨版本通過的話，這筆錢根本不會用到，因為用到的機會非常少，大家看到門檻那麼高就不想進行罷免啊！所以你們這筆錢就不用花了嘛！不是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們大概不會編列罷免的預算啦！"],["郭委員國文：是不會，你們是動用第二預備金啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["郭委員國文：所以你們的第二預備金就不用編列那麼多啦！這等於是國民黨自打嘴巴，把孫文當年留下來的罷免權閹割掉嘛！國民黨的徒子徒孫，把之前孫文創建的罷免權去除掉，不是嗎？最後的結果就是你們的預算不用編列那麼多了啦！如果國民黨這個法案真的通過的話，可以順便把這部分的預算刪除掉。其實國民黨最需要做的是什麼？不是修改法案啦！是修改自己的言行，因為自己的言行倒行逆施才會引起人民不滿，所以想要罷免你啦！本席覺得主席今天真的操之過急，給我們的發言時間這麼短，而且還等這麼久，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。","接下來請林楚茵委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 二、審查委員蘇清泉等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":153.11,"end":174.412,"text":"罷免的時程拉長跟這個身份證的原本可能並沒有很直接的關係。不過我相信中選會也會花很多時間在處理這個事件上面,盡量我們的工作量。那另外我想到關於4至499號也有提出這個利益迴避的原則。主委請問這篇文是不是要再標示一下你的態度,好不好?"},{"start":177.713,"end":202.039,"text":"關於利益迴避的原則的適用這個我們尊重司法院大法官會議的解釋那如果是就我們這次的選罷法的修正案的部分我們認為是不宜來做修正不宜更動的所以在這一屆如果是不宜的話那也不應該把這個不宜留到下一屆"},{"start":203.479,"end":222.009,"text":"所以只有一個標準嗎?所以我想現在國民黨跟民眾黨刻意的提高罷免門檻嚴重違反人民使用罷免權的一個權利我想這個恣意提高罷免門檻逃避人民的監督那也竊取一個公民社會的溝通"},{"start":223.63,"end":249.333,"text":"國民黨有名召委及排審副委然後我們事後惡意來修改遊戲規則破壞一個政治的契約我相信朱毅本身是法律人也當過縣市長現在在我們中選會朱毅是不是應該你講到這件事情你究竟有什麼看法嗎?不好意思我剛才不清楚講到你在一個法律人的角度你是很嚴謹的嘛這樣的一個惡意修法你究竟有什麼看法嗎?"},{"start":250.084,"end":271.777,"text":"我不敢說是惡意修法但是我認為這次修法的發動跟對於選制本身的檢討並沒有很直接的關係而是因為有一股政治上的風潮也許是不是會引起相互之間的一個罷免"},{"start":272.637,"end":286.901,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1605,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（17時30分）謝謝主席，有請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，辛苦了！罷免是民意的展現，我們不應該用任何方式沒收人民的意志，這一點，主委認同嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：認同。"],["徐委員富癸：不過現在國民黨與民眾黨提出幾個版本，尤其是要求罷免的同意票要超過被罷免人的當選票數，將這個門檻拉得很高。現在的選舉幾乎是兩年舉辦一次，一次是總統及立委的選舉，另外一次就是地方縣市長及議員的選舉。因為同一次選舉的投票意願、投票率一定會比較高，但是單獨罷免案的投票率一定會比較低，這樣的做法是不是就讓罷免的門檻相對的變相提高？"],["李主任委員進勇：計算票數的基礎不一樣，有很多的變項，包括投票率、包括當選人的人數、包括當選的席次等等，因為基礎不一樣，當然得出的票數就不能做類比。"],["徐委員富癸：但是以歷屆的選舉模式來看，一定是總統及立委選舉時的投票率比較高。"],["李主任委員進勇：選舉的投票率會比較高。"],["徐委員富癸：罷免時的投票率就會比較低。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["徐委員富癸：除此之外，關於民眾黨提出要附身分證影本的這件事情，我個人認為萬萬不可，因為茲事體大，不但有個資外洩的疑慮，而且關於冒名連署的問題，剛剛好幾位民進黨立委都講過，沒有人敢擔這個風險，主委，你敢擔這個風險嗎？誰敢保證這些資料不會被……"],["李主任委員進勇：以目前的查對機制而言，我們是可以再精進，可以把冒名或死亡連署等等的情形降到最低。"],["徐委員富癸：而且整個連署的過程是不是會把罷免連署期拉長、是不是又會造成許多工作上的負擔？"],["李主任委員進勇：罷免的時程拉長與身分證影本可能並沒有很直接的關係。"],["徐委員富癸：不過我認為中選會還是得花很多時間處理這件事情，增加了你們的工作量。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["徐委員富癸：再者，大法官釋字第499號解釋也有提出利益迴避的原則，主委，針對這個部分，是否能表明你的態度？"],["李主任委員進勇：關於利益迴避原則的適用，我們尊重司法院大法官會議的解釋。如果是就我們這次選罷法修正案的部分，我們認為是不宜修正、不宜更動，在這一屆若是不宜的話，也不應該把這個不宜留到下一屆。"],["徐委員富癸：所以只有一個標準嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["徐委員富癸：國民黨與民眾黨刻意提高罷免門檻，嚴重危害人民行使罷免權的權利，我認為是恣意提高罷免門檻，逃避人民的監督，也欠缺公民社會溝通，國民黨召委急著排審付委，事後惡意修改遊戲規則，破壞政治契約。主委本身是法律人，也曾擔任過縣市長，現在是中選會的主委，針對這件事情，你個人有什麼看法嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：「歹勢」！我剛才沒聽清楚。"],["徐委員富癸：站在你身為法律人的角度，而且你是一個很嚴謹的人，對於這樣一個惡意修法，你個人有什麼看法？"],["李主任委員進勇：我不敢說是惡意修法，但是我認為這次修法的發動與對於選制本身的檢討並沒有很直接的關係，而是因為有一股政治上的風潮，也許是不是會引起相互之間的罷免，正因為有這樣的狀況，才會考慮要不要修改選罷法。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，最後中選會一定會支持人民有罷免的權利，你認同這一點吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們選務機關捍衛憲法保障的國民參政權，這是責無旁貸的事。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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可不可以請李主委請李主委"},{"start":16.024,"end":35.781,"text":"委員長好主委你好你好我今天來請教這個問題就是要守護民眾的罷免權利現法第十七條規定就是人民有選舉、罷免、創制、護絕的權利我知道你是跟我的大學同學郭六洋醫師"},{"start":37.625,"end":59.07,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":67.52,"end":95.078,"text":"法免的過程在之前被看到包括立法委員有三件、直轄市長有一件、縣市長有一件、直轄市議員有兩件當然那麼多年才七件代表其實罷免即使門檻降低還是非常困難的一件事情如果我們在做這樣的修正事實上對民眾罷免的權利造成很大的一些影響這個大家都可以很容易的理解"},{"start":96.641,"end":121.027,"text":"我們也知道說在根據這個選辦法第13條的規定目前在這個過程裡面往往中央跟地方進行這些處理的時候都會有一不一致的地方那不一致包括這個連署合格的條件連署書的這個查類方式都會有不同的這個可能性這部分包括主委你不知道有什麼看法嗎?要不要讓他精進讓他避免這樣的問題產生"},{"start":123.555,"end":141.641,"text":"謝謝王委員的指教的確在最近某一個罷免案的個案裡面有發生類似的情形就是說中央跟地方針對這個連署人名冊的查對大家的看法有一點出入"},{"start":142.861,"end":161.316,"text":"有出入也沒有關係,因為根據相關法令的規定,縣市長的選舉罷免都是屬於中央選委會主管的事項。中央選委會主管,但是它只會監督地方選委會來執行。"},{"start":164.318,"end":191.9,"text":"所以如果有見解不一樣的地方大家可以透過溝通協調或者是上級的行政機關本於行政指導的立場可以達到一致的見解但是我們也為了讓所有的各地選委會大家有一致的標準所以先前就曾經有過很多對於如何查對標準我們有一些含釋"},{"start":193.061,"end":220.519,"text":"法律相關的規定我們也提示了所以這個東西是有存在的我們再把它作為一個綜合的整理讓大家作為一個參考好 謝謝 謝謝那我也麻煩那個部長可不可以請也告訴我們說如果針對於未來這個罷免要改善的話有什麼方案可以來執行因為我們這次也知道這個要調高這個門檻其實部長也有表示過將來可能會對於這個政黨造成一些惡性競爭"},{"start":221.78,"end":243.973,"text":"不當影響,所以提供了三個意見作參考。我們也知道立法院法治局也針對這個罷免改善方案提供了兩個可行性的一個探討,包括植物性質或者是選舉方式做不同的設計跟規劃。這補充不知道有什麼樣的方案、覆案可以跟大家做討論嗎?"},{"start":245.534,"end":265.011,"text":"謝謝王委員的指教我相信最大的原因是來自於大家都知道選舉跟罷免雖然是人民的參政權但是在落實也就是說在執行的過程當中難免也加入政黨的競爭那我們最近的一次的選罷法的修正其實就是因為當時的在立法院各個黨團互相協商然後共識過的一個方案"},{"start":270.296,"end":277.4,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1589,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（17時25分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：主委，你好。今天我要向你請教的問題就是為了守護民眾的罷免權利。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["王委員正旭：憲法第十七條規定，人民有選舉、罷免、創制、複決之權。我知道你與我的大學同學郭醫師一起擔任預官，那是在40年前的事情了。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["王委員正旭：40年前我們大家考試的科目有三民主義、五權憲法，這些都是我們曾經背過，也非常熟悉的題目，現在要做改變，當然意見會有很多。其實自從2016年修法降低罷免的門檻，到目前為止一共只有7件罷免案，包括立法委員有3件、直轄市長有1件、縣市長有1件、直轄市議員有2件，那麼多年來只有7件，代表即使門檻降低了，罷免仍然是非常困難的一件事情。如果現在我們再做這樣的修正，事實上，將會對民眾的罷免權利造成很大的影響，這個部分大家應該都會很容易理解。我們也知道，根據選罷法第十三條的規定，目前在這個過程中，往往中央與地方處理這些事務時都會有不一致之處，包括連署合格的條件、連署書的查對方式都會有不同的可能性。針對這個部分，不知道主委有什麼樣的看法，該如何精進以避免這樣的問題產生？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝王委員的指教。的確在最近某一個罷免案的個案裡面有發生類似的情形，中央與地方針對連署人名冊的查對，大家的看法有一點出入。其實有出入也沒有關係，根據相關法令的規定，縣市長的選舉罷免都是屬於中央選委會主管的事項，雖然是由中央選委會主管，但是它指揮監督地方選委會執行，因此，如果有見解不一樣的地方，大家可以透過溝通協調，或是上級行政機關本於行政指導的立場，可以達到一致的見解。但是我們也為了讓所有的各地選委會有一致的標準，先前就曾經對於查對標準有過一些函示，我們對於法律相關的規定也提示了，所以這個東西是有存在的，我們再將它做一個綜合的整理，讓大家做為參考。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝、謝謝。","我也要麻煩部長。部長，針對這個部分，如果未來要改善的話，有什麼方案可以執行？對於這次要調高門檻的事情，部長也表示將來可能會造成政黨間的惡性競爭、造成不當的影響，因此提出三點意見作為參考。此外，立法院法制局也針對這個罷免改善方案提供了兩個可行性的探討，包括依職務性質或選舉方式做不同的設計及規劃，部長是否有什麼方案可以提出來討論？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝王委員的指教。我相信最大的原因是來自於大家都知道選舉與罷免雖然是人民的參政權，但是在落實，也就是在執行的過程當中，難免也會加入政黨的競爭。我們最近一次的選罷法修正，其實就是當時在立法院的各個黨團互相協商取得共識後的方案，這樣的方案執行起來比較不會讓人覺得是剝奪人民的參政權。如果大家都有這樣的共識，其實站在行政機關的立場上，我們都願意來參考。但是如果是為了某一個政黨、為了某一些特別的其他因素，反而會造成外界的誤解、會認為我們修選罷法是為了某一個特別的政黨，通過這樣的法律就無法長長久久。"],["主席：是不是請部長書面回覆？"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長及主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":141.716,"end":164.68,"text":"這個我就沒有辦法做揣測只要他是符合條件他有權利來行事我們知道我們是民主的國家我們就是用民主的選舉的制度選出民意代表就是從中央一直到地方各級的民意代表那民意代表的職責是做什麼呢就是所謂的代議士就是替民眾替百姓來表達這個民意"},{"start":167.381,"end":175.687,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九"},{"start":194.079,"end":217.913,"text":"所以如果說被人民選出來的民意代表他沒有違背民意他的言行操守不要太離譜那都是能夠符合民眾的期待的話你想民眾會這樣子無緣無故提出罷免案嗎我想百姓也沒說這樣吃飽贏贏沒事情就是隨便去搞一個罷免案吧"},{"start":219.594,"end":222.556,"text":"因為我們經過第一階段第二階段都有這樣子的一個連署的一個門檻也不是那麼容易的嘛對不對所以今天國民黨他們要提出說要這個同意罷免的人數要高於就是他的當選的一個票數這樣子的一個門檻實際上就是為這個選罷法設下更高的一個門檻"},{"start":242.89,"end":251.742,"text":"當年陳柏惟被罷免時,同意票數高於不同意票數,同意票數低於當選票數,當時朱立倫的態度是什麼?"},{"start":257.87,"end":259.992,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":282.21,"end":285.191,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1544,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（17時15分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：主委，午安！這樣一整天下來，辛苦了！"],["李主任委員進勇：大家辛苦了！"],["陳委員素月：首先要讓全國民眾知道，中華民國憲法明文規定，人民有選舉、罷免、創制及複決之權。罷免權是憲法明定的參政權，是基於直接民權所制定的制度，所以我們的選民、我們的鄉親百姓有依憲法行使罷免權的權利，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員素月：但是我們都知道過去進行罷免連署這個階段的門檻非常高，也因此被民眾稱為鳥籠罷免，於是我們在2016年針對這個門檻做了一些修訂。包括第一階段提案人數門檻從2%降為1%、第二階段的連署人數門檻從13%降為10%。最終階段有關於投票人數的門檻，從雙重二分之一的規定，投票數超過選舉人數50%以及同意罷免票數超過有效票數的二分之一，也就是我們所稱的雙二一制度，修正為同意票數超過選舉人數的25%以及同意票超過不同意票，這個罷免案就可以成立。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員素月：這樣才能確保罷免權確實是可以被行使的。請教主委，在什麼樣的情況下，人民會提起罷免？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個我就沒辦法揣測了。"],["陳委員素月：你沒辦法揣測？"],["李主任委員進勇：是，只要符合條件就有權利行使。"],["陳委員素月：我們是民主國家，當然是用民主的選舉制度選出民意代表，從中央一直到地方的各級民意代表皆是如此，然而民意代表的職責是什麼呢？他們是所謂的代議士，代替民眾、代替百姓表達民意、反映民意，並爭取百姓的權益。在人民行使選舉權選出心中的代議士之後，當然他們也有權利監督民意代表的表現，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員素月：針對民意代表的言行操守、議事態度及表決立場等等，這些都是可以監督檢驗的。如果被人民選出的民意代表沒有違背民意，言行操守不要太離譜，而且能夠符合民眾的期待，你認為民眾會無緣無故提出罷免案嗎？我想百姓也不會吃飽閒閒沒事做，隨便就去搞一個罷免案吧！畢竟要經過第一階段及第二階段的連署門檻也不是那麼的容易，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員素月：今天國民黨提出同意罷免的人數要高於當選的票數，這樣的提議實際上就是為這個選罷法設下更高的門檻。我們也看到當年陳柏惟被罷免的同意票數是高於不同意票數，但是這個同意票數是低於他的當選票數，因為他是十一萬多票當選。當時朱立倫的態度是什麼？他說這是民主的勝利！國民黨的主席喊說這是民主的勝利！今天國民黨再來提出罷免案成立一定要同意票數高於當選票數，這樣不是打他們主席的臉嗎？因此，我希望國民黨及民眾黨的立委能夠好好思考，站在民意的這一邊，不要老是想著自己的權益，況且4年的選舉很快就會到了，就算無法施行罷免的權利，等到再次選舉的時候，我相信選民的眼睛是雪亮的，他們還會用選票檢驗候選人的表現，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。","接下來請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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第一階段成案 啊 之後 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謝謝我們今天要討論這個國民黨委員所提的有效同意票數需要超過被罷免人數當選的得票數才算通過的內容就藉由金明聯副秘書長的說法是這樣子說的就是說這個提案呢中國國民黨就正式的向台灣人民宣告從此以後台灣人就沒有罷免的可能了"},{"start":33.405,"end":49.541,"text":"我們把近年三期有關立法委員被罷免的數據調出來向大家報告說明從數據上我們明顯的可以看到罷免時的投票率跟選舉時的投票率大相徑庭兩者是不一樣的母數這個邏輯很好理解"},{"start":51.903,"end":67.25,"text":"因為投票、選舉是全國一起來的競選活動,多方的候選人一起來表達訴求,然後多方的動員、多方的資源都投入,所以投票率自然會很高。但是罷免選舉、罷免投票往往只有發起方在動員,"},{"start":71.612,"end":95.963,"text":"一方動員的結果當然是投票率相對的比較低所以這個金明典的副秘書長繼續說我們可以看得到2016年新北市第二選區黃國昌當選的時候投票率63%但是罷免的時候投票率只有27%過去投票率大概都可以在六成以上甚至達到八成比如說2020或2024年的選舉台中市第二選區、台北市第五選區"},{"start":101.365,"end":125.808,"text":"這個都是2020年的數據兩個選區都將近有八成的選舉的時候有八成的投票率但是後來被這個提出罷免時的投票率最多最多就是五成最緊繃就是五成所以這是兩個完全不同計算基礎的母數你要來比較同意票數要大於原本的被當選的票數這是完全不可能的"},{"start":126.348,"end":127.448,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":143.854,"end":168.53,"text":"二、審查不優先的審查復國利民的民生法案： 把政治性的法案排在第一位,強行通過了違憲的擴權法案。而現在為了保護立法委員自己的權位,避免被罷免急著要修選罷法,提高罷免的難度,我們剛才講的讓罷免變成不可能。可是我們覺得在野黨你提這個法案的時候,你要先回頭想一想自己為什麼?"},{"start":170.011,"end":181.656,"text":"需要這麼做不就是因為你們所修的提案的法律或是你們在立法院的作為如果真的是跟真正的民意站在一起還需要怕被罷免嗎?你們這樣子不顧民生只想擴權政治鬥爭才會害怕被罷免代表站在民意的對立面才會害怕被罷免嗎?"},{"start":193.9,"end":213.596,"text":"所以增加罷免的難度剝奪民權這個是你們使用的方法而不是回來檢討自己說我是不是站在民意的對立面然後為了保護這些亂來的立委不被罷免然後再提高門檻然後保護自己的權位剝奪了人民的權利這是不應該的而今天我們在講說2019年"},{"start":216.621,"end":230.7,"text":"各位當時是民進黨執政2019年行政院為了防度造假連署當時也曾經提議要修正公投法連署的時候要附身份證影本"},{"start":232.437,"end":246.086,"text":"當時張宏祿、趙薇在排審的時候國民黨的立委總召江啟臣帶領凌晨五點一樣破窗進入會議室霸占主席台在會議室門鎖"},{"start":247.247,"end":276.339,"text":"也一樣灌入三秒焦等方式強力杯葛而當時國民黨的主席江啟臣現在的立法院副院長當時批民進黨所提的修法案是侵害隱私提高聯署難度江啟臣國民黨的訴求說鐵籠公投限縮公民權開民主倒車而當時呢民進黨雖然未有國會多數面對外界的反彈沒有通過公"},{"start":277.059,"end":288.742,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。二"},{"start":306.576,"end":309.123,"text":"請尊重會議程序。"},{"start":317.44,"end":346.099,"text":"避免造假的連署負身份證銀本為什麼只修選罷法而沒有修到公投法呢?所以今天在這裡我們講說光是利益迴避的這個原則即便你們要修法也應該是從下一屆再實施沒有人說怕自己被罷免現在馬上修法這一屆就馬上適用大家都知道大法官釋字499號說這個是明顯的沒有利益迴避這是自肥法案"},{"start":347.322,"end":348.205,"text":"二、審查委員林淑芬等2"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1454,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（16時58分）好，謝謝。我們今天要討論國民黨委員所提的，有效同意票數需要超過被罷免人當選得票數才算通過的內容，我就藉由經民連副秘書長的說法，他是這樣子說的，就是說這個提案，中國國民黨就是正式向臺灣人民宣告，從此以後，臺灣人就沒有罷免的可能了。我們把近年3起有關立法委員被罷免的數據調出來向大家報告說明，從數據上我們明顯的可以看到，罷免時的投票率跟選舉時的投票率大相逕庭，兩者是不一樣的母數，這個邏輯很好理解，因為投票選舉是全國一起來的競選活動，多方的候選人一起來表達訴求，然後多方的動員，多方的資源都投入，所以投票率自然會很高。但是罷免選舉，這個罷免投票往往只有發起方在動員，一方動員的結果，當然是投票率相對的比較低，所以經民連的副秘書長繼續說，我們可以看到2016年新北市第2選區黃國昌當選的時候，投票率63%，但是罷免的時候，投票率只有27%。過去投票率大概都可以在六成以上，甚至達到八成，比如說2020或2024年的選舉，臺中市第二選區、臺北市第五選區，這個都是2020年的數據，兩個選區在選舉時都有將近八成的投票率，但是後來提出罷免時的投票率最多、最多就是五成、最緊繃就是五成，所以這是兩個完全不同計算基礎的母數。你要同意票數必須大於原本被當選的票數，這是完全不可能的、天方夜譚的，如果你將兩者放在一起，也就是公然宣布臺灣人民此後將沒有罷免的權利，所以大家都在反對。上個會期國民黨黨團及民眾黨黨團不優先審查福國利民的民生法案，卻把政治性的法案排在第一位，強行通過了違憲的擴權法案。現在又為了保護立法委員自己的權位，避免被罷免，於是就急著要修選罷法，提高罷免的難度，誠如我們剛剛講的，讓罷免變成不可能的事。但我們認為在野黨提出這個法案時應該要先回頭想一想，為什麼自己需要這麼做？不就是因為你們提案所修的法律或你們在立法院的作為，如果真的是與民意站在一起，還需要怕被罷免嗎？你們這樣不顧民生，只講擴權及政治鬥爭，才會害怕被罷免，也代表你們是站在民意的對立面，才會害怕被罷免嘛！因此，增加罷免的難度、剝奪民權，這是你們使用的方法，而不是檢討自己是不是站在民意的對立面。為了保護這些亂來的立委不被罷免，再提高門檻保護自己的權位，剝奪了人民的權利，這是不應該的。","2019年是民進黨執政，行政院為了防杜造假連署，當時也曾經提議要修正公投法，連署時要附身分證影本，在張宏陸召委排審時，國民黨的立委總召江啟臣帶領，凌晨5點一樣破窗進入會議室霸占主席台、一樣使用將會議室門鎖灌注三秒膠等方式強力杯葛。當時國民黨的主席江啟臣、現在的立法院副院長，批評民進黨所提的修法案是侵害隱私、提高連署難度。江啟臣、國民黨的訴求是鐵籠公投限縮公民權，開民主倒車……"],["主席：謝謝林委員。林委員，時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：雖然當時民進黨握有國會多數席次，但是面對外界的反彈，並沒有通過公投連署要附身分證影本的修法。最後我要講，誰才是造假連署的大戶？傅崐萁說修法的理由是為了避免造假連署……"],["主席：謝謝，林委員，質詢時間到了。"],["林委員淑芬：但是從過去到現在，民間推動罷免韓國瑜時的不合格率是7%，國民黨立委推動罷免高閔琳時的不合格率是49%，2018年國民黨提出3個公投案……"],["蔡委員易餘：又來了！"],["主席：請尊重會議程序。"],["翁委員曉玲：消音了啦！"],["林委員淑芬：避免造假的連署要附身分證影本，為什麼只修選罷法，卻沒有修到公投法呢？光是利益迴避的原則，即便你們要修法也應該是從下一屆再實施，沒有人因為怕自己被罷免就現在馬上修法，而且這一屆就馬上適用。大家都知道大法官釋字第499號解釋認為這是明顯的沒有利益迴避，這是自肥！這是自肥法案啊！這是不應該的！"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員。","接下來請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主委期待在凝聚社會共識我們再來審議這個法案謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1434,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（16時53分）好，謝謝主席。"],["李委員坤城：讓他收尾一下啦！"],["王委員美惠：讓他收尾一下啦！"],["主席：請林宜瑾委員，林宜瑾委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請照常計時。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝，有請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["王委員美惠：不要那麼兇啦！好像土匪，好像共匪，嚇死人！"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委好。我想這一屆國民黨跟民眾黨藍白聯手，造成最大的民主危機，不只把自己立委的權力擴大，還向人民盜竊原有的權利，全臺灣人民都知道罷免權是憲法賦予人民的基本參政權，如果沒有經過充分的討論就要來修法剝奪，限制這個民權的行使，這是萬萬不可！當然今天有這樣的詢答，我們也期待還有充分的公聽，對於選罷法要修法有更充分的討論。","今天要提到的是，國眾兩黨從整肅異己的國會擴權惡法，到今天取消人民的罷免權，這個脈絡是一脈相承，其實簡單可是又暴力，藍白兩黨因為民主而成為國會的多數，可是卻反過頭要威脅臺灣人，用引以為傲的民主體制來威脅他，取消罷免，所以大家不要看表面上國民黨好像就是在推動提高罷免門檻，實際上我看今天早上的發言，袖手旁觀的民眾黨也是閹割憲法賦權，剝奪人民參政權的幫助犯。","我當然很好奇的是，到底是怎麼樣的一群人一天到晚在害怕罷免？連謝國樑這樣的縣市長，施政滿意度調查全國排名倒數第2名的，在現行制度下都可以沒被罷免掉，所以我覺得其實現行的罷免已經非常的周延。那實在很遺憾，我們一次又一次把國家的資源耗費在這種所謂學者專家或者整體社會都還沒有共識的政治性法案，所以今天即便有這樣的詢答，我還是對這樣子的修法感到非常的遺憾。","我想藍白聯手搞出來這個國會擴權惡法，這種拼裝車才在憲法法庭被判為違憲，現在又要用另一個角度來擴大自己的權力，要求人民如果要想罷免就要提供身分證影本，要求人民若想罷免，同意罷免票數就必須要高於當選票數，這種提高罷免門檻的雙管齊下，其實真的就是沒收了人民的罷免權。","現在國民黨同意罷免票數要高於當選票數，所以我想要請教，當初選舉進行投票那群人和罷免投票的那群人，誰能保證是同一群人？從選舉投票到罷免投票至少要經過一年半的時間，那這一年半的時間，人事物難道不會有變化嗎？至少選舉跟罷免投票的目的、本質、性質其實完全不同，而且通常全國性選舉的投票率也高於罷免案的投票率，所以如果再一次用基隆市長謝國樑來講，當時2022基隆市長選舉的投票率是60.16%，罷免謝國樑的投票率也只有50.44%，差了10%左右，這兩種基礎完全不同的數字硬要擺在一起，混為一談，作為罷免是否通過的依據，我想請教主委，你認為這樣的依據是合理的嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這也是中選會一直做的說明，也就是說，在投票的時候，選舉投票的時候跟在罷免投票的時候，時空環境已經有所改變，民意是流動的，罷免就是要再一次地來審視，再一次地來做確認，所以不應該用舊的民意要來框住新的民意，這樣子是說不過去的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：期待再凝聚社會共識，我們再來審議這個法案，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林宜瑾委員。","接下來請林淑芬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d213cb4275ec5b259e7d143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d17aa60440c46ce58cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"17:45:14 - 17:50:39","影片長度":"00:05:25","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T17:45:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T17:50:39+08:00","duration":325,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.48596875,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.603468750000001,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.94034375,"end":40.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.868468750000005,"end":53.305343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.719093750000006,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.32471875,"end":64.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.67909375,"end":83.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.69596875,"end":64.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.57909375,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.35471875,"end":88.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.79721875,"end":146.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.21909375,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.09659375000001,"end":94.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.28971875,"end":100.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.42159375,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.30971875,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.28409375,"end":176.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.61096875,"end":184.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.75346875000002,"end":221.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.34784375,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.98784375000002,"end":235.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.02471875,"end":229.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.13846875000002,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.34471875000003,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.60971875,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.54596875000001,"end":241.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.87409375000001,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.30846875,"end":255.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.83971875,"end":252.27846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.19784375,"end":293.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.12596875,"end":256.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.24659375000005,"end":307.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.72971875,"end":323.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.54159375,"end":323.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.60909375,"end":323.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.64284375,"end":324.21659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.102,"end":11.827,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個兩位都一起好了謝謝看你們這麼辛苦了一整天了"},{"start":14.67,"end":14.89,"text":"通貨膨脹嚴重?"},{"start":41.236,"end":63.669,"text":"各位委員不知道我想那已經是幾年前那時候的物價相對來講是平穩我那時候沒有猜我猜啦應該是這要問主委總署不要知道說他們能不能移車那麼遠我瞭解所以呢我們當時看到就是我們現在回頭過來看因為我們在這個年金改革相關的辦法裡面我們有一個每五年檢討一次的制度對吧"},{"start":64.749,"end":68.271,"text":"撫卹法第十四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":83.541,"end":100.196,"text":"檢討檢討檢討檢討檢討"},{"start":100.817,"end":120.937,"text":"但是我們可以看到其實現在的這個通貨膨脹還有物價的調漲其實速度非常的快那再加上我們這做了年金改革之後等同於說我們的退休公務人員他們就不能說被撥了兩次皮但他們等於說實質上面他們的退休金能夠使用出去的那又變得更少了"},{"start":121.357,"end":135.708,"text":"所以我們就希望說那現在既然也過了四年了那我們就希望做一個檢討這是第一件事情第二件事情就是剛剛您也提到了在CPI我們就講說呢要超過5%的時候呢那我們跟著調升那我想要請教說有沒有可能我們在版本當中因為現在要討論修法嘛那我們改成CPI3%的時候呢我們就來做調整我跟委員報告說這個幾%要調整是立法政策"},{"start":150.72,"end":163.886,"text":"另外一個議題就是說因為我們其他的所謂有社會保險包括國民年金公保其他都是定5%當初會定這個是因為全國不要有不同的那個所以這是一個要一起來討論的事情但是因為當然一起來討論但比方說像勞保他並沒有被做勞保的勞保改革嘛"},{"start":171.289,"end":187.786,"text":"所以就是說因為那如果真的要講說都一起的話那老寶年金也沒改革啊我講委員跟您報告就是說5%其實沒有達到但是我們每四年也一定會做檢討是所以說現在是到一個檢討的時段所以大家才會在這個時候提出法律的修正案嘛"},{"start":188.326,"end":196.078,"text":"所以我就在想說我們是不是有可能因為看到現在尤其我們看到現在川普上任之後未來可見的未來我們的通貨膨脹還有各式各樣的物價上漲是不是台灣而已是全球都有可能發生的"},{"start":203.348,"end":221.503,"text":"那是不是我們在這個時候針對公務人員他的這個CPI的調漲那可以把這個幅度下降到3%讓他們能夠真的反映到他們的這個退休金上面不要因為物價上漲的關係然後讓他們實質能夠領到的這個月退奉反而是變少了"},{"start":221.983,"end":222.243,"text":"三（委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":249.675,"end":275.952,"text":"第一次調整就是每四年檢討一次的調整第二次調整就是剛好他真的超達到5%所以我們知道那最後大家很會問的問題就是說那是不是會有退福基金這個虧空然後導致於就大家領不到的問題但是呢我們的這個勞動部長在大家關注勞保基金的時候那當前勞動部長他說呢這個不是只有砍年金才是改革的迷思他說呢撥補"},{"start":278.173,"end":293.607,"text":"建權這個勞保財務這就是政府的決心他認為撥補經費也是一種改革那我想請問那為什麼勞保會用撥補的作為改革但我們的退休軍公教人員不能以撥補作為改革呢"},{"start":294.287,"end":322.973,"text":"跟委員報告我們一直都是用都有撥補金因為我們節省了金費兩千多億都全數挹注回基金並沒有拿去別的地方用那因為為了退撫薪資所以目前大概另外再撥補大概是一百兩百九十四億所以其實就是說要怎麼讓基金永續就是都是多軌道在進行那這個就是當初設定年金改革持續要運作的一個路徑"},{"start":323.574,"end":324.04,"text":"撫卹法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1914,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（17時45分）謝謝主席，我請……兩位一起好了，我看你們都辛苦了一整天。"],["主席：請人事長、部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：辛苦了！一整天都在這邊。大家都很重視公務人員的權益，所以今天有非常多人針對相關議題，不管是關於現職公務人員或退休公務人員，都進行很多討論。我第一個問題想問的是，當時在進行年金改革的時候，你們有考慮到、有預判到後來的通貨膨脹這麼嚴重這件事情嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，那已經是幾年前，當時的物價相對來講是平穩的。我那時候沒有參與，而我猜啦！這個問題應該要問主計總處，比較知道他們能不能預測那麼遠。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，我了解。","我們當時看到……我是說我們回頭去看，在年金改革相關辦法裡面有一個每5年檢討一次的制度，對吧？"],["施部長能傑：每4年。"],["徐委員巧芯：喔！是每4年檢討一次的制度。那為什麼要每4年檢討一次？就是可能因為通貨膨脹、CPI、國情、財務等狀況有調整的機會，所以才會有每4年討論一次這樣的結論，是這樣嗎？"],["施部長能傑：應該這樣講，其實源頭是CPI只要達到5%就要調整，如果沒有達到5%，就是每4年應該檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，沒有達到5%的話。有兩個標準嘛！就是CPI超過5%跟每4年檢討一次嘛！"],["施部長能傑：對，沒錯。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們可以看到，現在的通貨膨脹還有物價調漲速度其實非常地快，再加上我們做了年金改革之後，等同退休公務人員就……不能說被剝了兩次皮，但也等於實質上能夠使用出去的退休金又變得更少了。既然現在也過了4年，那我們希望做個檢討，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情剛剛您也提到了，就是在CPI超過5%的時候跟著調升，那我想請教，既然現在正在討論修法，那麼有沒有可能在修法版本當中改成CPI達到3%就做調整？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，達到百分之幾要調整屬於立法政策，但另外一個議題涉及其他社會保險，包括國民年金、公保在內，其他都訂在5%啦！當初會訂這個標準，是因為全國不要有不同的待遇，所以這是一個要一起來討論的事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然要一起來討論，但是比方說勞保，並沒有做勞保改革嘛！如果真的都要一起討論的話，那勞保年金也沒改革啊！"],["施部長能傑：委員，我跟你報告，即使5%沒有達到，但是我們每4年也一定會做檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，現在是到了一個檢討的時段，大家才會在這個時候提出法律的修正案嘛！所以我才會想到是不是有可能調整。尤其等川普上任之後，未來、在可見的未來就會有通貨膨脹，還有各式各樣的物價上漲，不會只在臺灣而已，而是全球都可能發生的，那我們是不是該在這個時候將公務人員年金隨CPI調漲的門檻調降到3%，讓它真的反映到退休金上面，不要因為物價上漲的關係讓他們實質能夠領到的月退俸反而變少？"],["施部長能傑：委員，我們現在的機制是跟著CPI，而這是正確的方向，全世界都這樣做。至於現在要討論的是要用5%還是往下降，我想這可以在社會上再多作一些討論，朝這樣的方向去做。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，所以您不是特別反對，只是希望能夠統一？是這個意思嗎？"],["施部長能傑：因為還有前提，就是要跟別的制度一起調整。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["施部長能傑：最重要的是即使沒有達到5%，4年內也都可以檢討。跟委員報告，過去兩次調整中，第一次調整就是每4年檢討一次的調整，第二次調整就是剛好CPI真的達到5%。"],["徐委員巧芯：這我們知道。","最後，大家會問的問題就是會不會有退撫基金虧空導致大家領不到的問題。但是在大家關注勞保基金的時候，前勞動部長說不是只有砍年金才是改革的迷思，以撥補健全勞保財務就是政府的決心，她認為撥補經費也是一種改革。那麼我想請問，為什麼勞保可以用撥補作為改革，退休軍公教人員年金卻不能以撥補作為改革呢？"],["施部長能傑：我想跟委員報告，我們一直都有撥補進去。基本上，我們節省的經費兩千多億元都全數挹注回基金，並沒有拿去別的地方用，同時為了退撫新制，目前大概還另外再撥補294億元。所以針對要怎麼讓基金永續，其實都是多軌道進行，這就是當初設定要讓年金改革持續運作的路徑。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王世堅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157949","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157949","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2184b48e59be5bbe0cd143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d17f642cddcd8afeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"17:39:49 - 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卹法第十七條條文修正草案案案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1895,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（17時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩請人事長。"],["主席：麻煩人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：人事長好。我想請教一下，這次原民會組織法的修法爭議不知道您有沒有注意到，您知道這件事嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：應該是提到原民會執行的預算金額增加，所以你們也期待員額也可以有一定比例的增加。"],["陳委員瑩：應該不是這個部分啦！我是說族群委員的修法爭議，因為在討論的過程中，有委員提出附帶決議，說要把原民會族群委員的薪資刪掉，把這些經費節省起來，未來要挪到原民會聘請一般公務人員使用。我要請教人事長，經費可以這樣挪來挪去嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個涉及組織的安定性，我覺得非常重要，這樣做的話，對既存的各族群委員來講是有一點點不公平。"],["陳委員瑩：除了不公平以外，要增加整個原民會公務人員的員額，也不是把這筆經費刪掉、省起來就可以挪到別的地方，不是這樣說挪就挪的吧！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，我們在編人事費時，都會考量要執行哪些業務、這些業務是屬於新增的、或者做哪些，再給額外的人事費，因為人事費這個科目本來就有很明確的用途。"],["陳委員瑩：人事長要是有機會，應該好好跟那些立委們講清楚，因為我覺得他們真的是搞不清楚狀況，把整個政府預算當成小學生的數學，想要怎麼挪就怎麼挪，大筆一揮就亂掉啦！用這種附帶決議，乍聽之下好像很合理、很正常，其實他們最近一直在用這種話術欺騙民眾、欺騙我們原住民，讓大家覺得政府為什麼要讓原民會的人力一直都不足、處於不足的狀態？但事實上，針對原民會員額的問題，我有跟原民會再三確認，其實他們的編制員額是206人，至於明年的預算員額，你們這邊是給到198人，根據10月底的統計，實際員額則是166人。雖然年底原住民特考會再補進這些人力，但是原民會人力不足的問題並不是預算員額的問題，而是實際員額太低，也就是說，原民會根本就找不到人或者是留不住人，這才是真正的問題。針對這些問題，我要請教人事長，你有什麼建議、應該怎麼辦？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，我也跟很多原住民朋友討論過啦！尤其原民會的上班地點在新莊那裡，而他們都是從其他地方來的。我知道原住民有一個非常好的習慣，就是還是喜歡回到他的hometown工作，因為那裡是他生活的場域，所以到都會區來工作對於原住民來說，吸引力會相對比較不夠。"],["陳委員瑩：因為到都會區開銷很大啦！吃的也貴、住的也貴啦！整個消費都滿高的啦！但我想這是其中一點，主要仍然是要調整原民會所有職員的專業加給，否則，沒有誘因怎麼留得住人才？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：針對這部分，上一年土管處已經又調……"],["陳委員瑩：我知道你一定會講到土管處啦！但我認為土管處是這樣：土管處這個比喻不是很好，因為土管處跟其他土地管理單位──像是國產署、地政司一樣，都在辦理土地業務，那就應該給一樣的加給，邏輯上是這樣，所以不要拿土管處來做比喻。你們刪掉土管處這個比喻，然後再好好想一下其他專業加給。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，我們再來跟原民會好好溝通。"],["陳委員瑩：對，希望你們針對怎麼補齊人力這個部分好好想一想，在1個月內提出報告。謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來請徐巧芯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157948","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157948","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21963a29ddea90946ed143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d171d84deb0c5e6415a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"17:34:58 - 17:39:41","影片長度":"00:04:43","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T17:34:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T17:39:41+08:00","duration":283,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.25284375,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.610968750000001,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.10846875,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.80846875,"end":21.242843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.01096875,"end":20.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.820968750000002,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.04034375,"end":21.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.74471875,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.153468750000002,"end":26.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.96346875,"end":31.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.890968750000003,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.869718750000004,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.244718750000004,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.90221875,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.657218750000006,"end":43.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.05784375,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.15471875,"end":46.268468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.791593750000004,"end":48.057218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.12034375,"end":50.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.60534375,"end":51.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.92159375,"end":52.140968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.140968750000006,"end":52.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.845343750000005,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.13596875,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.236593750000004,"end":61.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.65409375,"end":63.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.68346875,"end":65.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.61534375000001,"end":72.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.30221875000001,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.65221875,"end":76.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.67284375,"end":79.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.06909375000001,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.92096875,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.47721875,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.82659375,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.04971875000001,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.75721875,"end":111.84471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.43096875,"end":115.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.89471875000001,"end":119.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.82221875,"end":125.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.52596875,"end":127.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.62284375,"end":131.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.97659375,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.67596875,"end":140.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.75159375,"end":142.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.99596875,"end":145.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.91096875,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.12159375000002,"end":151.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.26034375,"end":153.69471875000002},{"sp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案（二）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條條文修正草案 案．委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六"},{"start":155.165,"end":163.229,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":181.089,"end":186.152,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":211.91,"end":230.914,"text":"事實上他破產不只是影響到縣子公務員還有退休的甚至還影響到未來很多公務人員他會有疑慮不敢來考公務員他影響的層面還是非常廣會找不到公務人員"},{"start":233.149,"end":243.135,"text":"他反正說要我退休我沒退休已經我要做公務人員有沒有人願意為國家社會人民來服務來努力這是很嚴重的問題你看看從今年的1186億會增加到明年的這個1316億政府大11%這種趨勢是每年每年增加"},{"start":259.892,"end":260.652,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1871,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（17時35分）謝謝主席，請施部長跟蘇人事長。"],["主席：請部長、人事長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：國家的利益永遠是高於政黨的利益，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：任何國家的制度一定要可長可久，而且一定要兼顧世代公平，立法者每天在思考的是怎麼樣讓國家更進步，讓人民更幸福，建立的法律、制度及相關的作為都是要福國利民，而不是禍國殃民。兩位同意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：非常同意。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["邱委員志偉：剛剛邱議瑩委員說，馬前總統說年改非做不可，對不對？吳前副總統也說，如果這個不改會變成未爆彈，一旦引爆會引起很大的問題，社會的問題、國家的危機、公務人員相關的權益，對不對？這兩位都曾經當過國家元首，我相信他們在當國家元首的時候，他們應該是思考到國家的利益，所以才會說出這種話。他們兩位同時也擔任過國民黨的黨主席，所以他們當時說這句話，應當是為了國家的利益或者制度的永續存在，我不曉得的是，為什麼年改在他們任內沒辦法執行，而蔡英文總統執行了，這是一個福國利民，讓制度永續生存，也兼顧世代公平，沒有錯嘛，既是對的事情，為什麼有人或是有特定的政黨，而且是曾經說年改不做是未爆彈，曾經說年改非做不可，且當過黨主席的人，他們政黨竟然要走回頭路，這情何以堪！我想是不是他們把政黨的利益高於國家的利益，把一個制度變成沒有辦法可長可久，也破壞了世代的公平，兩位同意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：同意。"],["邱委員志偉：那怎麼辦呢？如果假設按照國民黨的版本通過，會出現哪些恐怖的狀況？我光是用想的就覺得真的不寒而慄？會對國家造成非常嚴重傷害的影響會有哪些狀況？請教施部長。"],["施部長能傑：我想最重要的就是年金提早用罄，年金用罄就破產……"],["邱委員志偉：就破產吧，就沒有了嘛！"],["施部長能傑：對現職的公務人員來講，很多人都還在這個基金裡面，所以會產生很大的一個衝擊。"],["邱委員志偉：未來會有很多或是現在的公務人員都無法領到年金，不是這樣嗎？因為破產了嘛，人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，破產不只是影響到現職公務員，還有退休的，甚至還影響到未來很多公務人員會有疑慮，不敢來考公務員，所以影響的層面還是非常廣、非常廣。"],["邱委員志偉：就是會找不到公務人員，大家會煩惱退休沒退休金，那做公務人員要幹嘛，所以會沒有人願意為國家社會、為人民來服務、來努力，這是很嚴重的問題。你看看從今年的1,186億會增加到明年的1,316億，增幅到11%，這種趨勢是每年增加的，是不是這樣？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["邱委員志偉：那改回去怎麼辦？部長，你會煩惱嗎？"],["施部長能傑：就是因為……"],["邱委員志偉：我會煩惱到睡不著！因為本席一向都很尊重時間，不要影響到後面委員的質詢權利，相關的問題我再用書面跟兩位請教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","下一位請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157947","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157947","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2155ecb536a0d079f6d143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d1786cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"17:28:39 - 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國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157946","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157946","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2150fdd749667abbb8d143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d17a083280c9df5163c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"17:23:24 - 17:28:12","影片長度":"00:04:48","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T17:23:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T17:28:12+08:00","duration":288,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.016593750000002,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.74971875,"end":68.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.81346875,"end":75.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.85034375000001,"end":92.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.10096875,"end":100.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.57221875,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.87159375,"end":102.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.91784375,"end":126.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.23784375000001,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.95409375000001,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.13346875,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.54159375,"end":174.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.48034375,"end":177.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.70784375000002,"end":179.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.98596875,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.97721875000002,"end":183.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":188.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.33471875,"end":189.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.12784375,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.37596875,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.96534375000002,"end":204.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.36596875,"end":218.56221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.59596875000003,"end":221.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.36346875,"end":229.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.40846875000003,"end":230.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.18471875,"end":233.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.42471875,"end":235.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.53846875000002,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.48346875000001,"end":238.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.07784375000003,"end":243.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.95909375000002,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.58284375000002,"end":253.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.16846875000002,"end":270.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.10534375000003,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.19784375,"end":285.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.02846875,"end":288.50909375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.755,"end":32.902,"text":"謝謝趙偉請一下部長麻煩部長委員好部長有關於軍公教的年金改革是一個非常嚴肅的議題那在馬英九時代他們也希望能夠推出相關的改革的方案可惜沒有成功那到民進黨執政的時候"},{"start":33.402,"end":35.424,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":56.277,"end":61.459,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":75.936,"end":99.789,"text":"他們認為老保有撥補但是認為是對軍公教的年金有削減的這樣的一個政策他們認為這是有差異性的其實這是非常扭曲而且是非常謬誤的一個說法來請部長簡單說明一下我想在整個我們對政府對軍公教這邊的一個基金來講我們改革所省下來所有錢通通一樣"},{"start":100.589,"end":109.471,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":127.236,"end":154.337,"text":"老保在2012年的時候因為老保的財務精算報告提出說老保有財務的這樣的一個破產的危機的狀況所以在當時2012年當時的行政院長是陳聰老委會的主委是王如璇那當時我就提出兩大訴求第一個是政府撥補第二個是國家最終支付責任"},{"start":155.057,"end":165.725,"text":"那努力了多年終於在蘇貞昌院長的時候2020年政府編了200億2021年編了220億2022年編了300億2023年編到750億那今年2024年編到1200億明年是希望有1300億我要跟國民黨的委員說這個政府的撥補還沒有明文入法"},{"start":182.585,"end":202.852,"text":"這是實質的撥補還沒有進行到下一個階段勞保條例第69條的一個修正勞保要有明文入法這才是安心條款那勞保還是必須要面對未來的勞保年金的改革就是為了要讓他永續的進行還是面臨同樣的一個議題"},{"start":205.404,"end":226.344,"text":"我們在這邊都必須要向所有的國人來報告我們都要照顧每一個國民這是我們共同的責任不管是軍公教還是勞工還是各階層都要運用國家的資源來保障他們一個基本的權利那相關的有關於勞保這樣的一個"},{"start":230.461,"end":243.122,"text":"保障,他們認為說對軍公教沒有保障。軍公教在軍公教退休人員撫蓄基金的管理條例第八條就有明文規定"},{"start":244.008,"end":270.348,"text":"他們的年金如果有經費的問題政府要撥補而且是有國家最終支付的他們有明文入法連國民年金國民年金法第49條也有明文規定國民年金如果有經費的問題政府也要撥補也要負最終支付責任不管哪一個階層我們國家都要負起這樣的一個基本的責任來讓部長做最後的一個補充說明"},{"start":280.137,"end":283.201,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1814,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（17時23分）謝謝召委，請一下部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，有關於軍公教的年金改革是一個非常嚴肅的議題，在馬英九時代，他們也希望能夠推出相關的改革方案，可惜沒有成功，到民進黨執政承擔起這樣改革的沉重責任。其實讓軍公教人員在退休時能夠有基本的保障，這是不分藍綠共同的責任，而且這樣的保障必須是能夠永續的，同時對年輕一輩軍公教也要給他們信心。","剛才我聽了幾位國民黨委員所提出有關於軍公教改革，他們認為軍公教改革在賴清德擔任總統之後，我們對於勞保有相關的持續撥補，他們認為勞保有撥補，但是認為對軍公教的年金有削減的政策，他們認為這是有差異性的，其實這是非常扭曲，而且是非常謬誤的一個說法。請部長簡單說明一下。"],["施部長能傑：以政府對軍公教基金來講，我們改革所省下來的所有錢統統一樣回歸給這個基金。"],["李委員昆澤：他們說你們砍了兩千多億，這兩千多億是砍掉了嗎？"],["施部長能傑：沒有砍掉，就是回到原基金。"],["李委員昆澤：還是回到原基金，這兩千多億也沒有提供到勞工的保障或是教育的改革、校園的設備，或是國王的支出，也都沒有嘛！"],["施部長能傑：都沒有。"],["李委員昆澤：這個必須要說明清楚。","另外，對於勞保相關的議題，勞保在2012年的時候因為勞保的財務精算報告，提出勞保有財務破產的危機狀況，2012年當時的行政院長是陳冲，勞委會主委是王如玄，當時我就提出兩大訴求，第一個是政府撥補，第二個是國家最終支付責任，努力了多年終於在蘇貞昌院長的時候，在2020年政府編了200億，2021年編了220億，2022年編了300億，2023年編到750億，今年2024年編到1,200億，明年是希望有1,300億。我要跟國民黨的委員說，這個政府的撥補還沒有明文入法，這是實質的撥補，還沒有進行到下一個階段勞保條例第六十九條的修正，勞保要有明文入法這才是安心條款，勞保還是必須要面對未來的勞保年金改革，就是為了要讓它永續，還是面臨同樣的一個議題。我們在這邊都必須要向所有的國人報告，我們都要照顧每一個國民，這是我們共同的責任，不管是軍公教還是勞工還是各階層，都要運用國家的資源來保障他們的基本權利。","相關的有關於勞保的保障，他們認為對軍公教沒有保障，軍公教在公務人員退休撫卹基金管理條例第八條就有明文規定，他們的年金如果有經費的問題，政府要撥補，而且是由國家負最終支付責任，它有明文入法喔，國民年金法第四十九條也有明文規定，國民年金如果有經費的問題，政府也要撥補，也要負最終支付責任，不管哪一個階層，我們國家都要負起這樣的基本責任，請部長做最後的補充說明。"],["施部長能傑：在公務人員相關的法律裡面都有類似的特別法律，政府要對財務上負最終支付責任這樣的規定。"],["李委員昆澤：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：另外有一個會議宣告，在邱議瑩委員發言之後，陸續有已登記未及發言的委員請求發言，請問一下在場委員，我們是不是同意已登記未及發言的委員發言以示公平？"],["鍾委員佳濱：同意。"],["主席：好，沒有異議的話，後續就依到場請求順序依序進行發言。謝謝。","下一位請邱議瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157945","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157945","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21b981d3e28cfc18d3d143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d173f3c00194d6c03235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"17:16:07 - 17:23:14","影片長度":"00:07:07","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T17:16:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T17:23:14+08:00","duration":427,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.691593750000003,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.36221875,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.68221875,"end":39.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.041593750000004,"end":50.132843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.43659375,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.12409375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.587843750000005,"end":60.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.47284375,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.83534375000001,"end":66.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.83909375,"end":69.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.12534375,"end":75.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.59721875000001,"end":88.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.18159375,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.59909375000001,"end":91.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.61034375000001,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.67784375000001,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.76221875,"end":107.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.93096875,"end":100.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.57534375,"end":110.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.83221875000001,"end":114.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.92471875000001,"end":113.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.74721875,"end":114.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.81471875000001,"end":115.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.00034375000001,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.70034375,"end":119.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.93221875,"end":123.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.45471875000001,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.59721875,"end":131.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.34784375,"end":139.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.38909375,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.12284375000002,"end":147.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.87721875,"end":151.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.21846875,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.38284375,"end":164.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.90596875,"end":152.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.52596875,"end":154.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.27971875,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.52846875,"end":165.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.73096875000002,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.14846875,"end":190.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.86909375000002,"end":174.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.82034375,"end":187.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.87034375000002,"end":206.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.45846875,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.96409375000002,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.92346875,"end":240.07784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.53909375,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.86721875,"end":306.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.34346875000003,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.58346875,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.24346875000003,"end":260.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.2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就不會破產啦！"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，根據……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你這樣講我就很擔心啊，因為你的意思是說到時候也許不是報酬率的問題，我們如果報酬率沒辦法解決，我要繼續砍人家年金，你怎麼對公務人員交代啊？你已經完全破壞了信賴保護原則了！"],["施部長能傑：我沒有……"],["葉委員元之：現在公家機關要招募優秀人才，就是因為你們粗暴的方式讓人家都不敢來啊！"],["施部長能傑：委員……"],["葉委員元之：我還沒有問問題啦，我還沒有問問題，我沒有問你。現在這個問題是，我們現在為了要建立優秀的公務人員願意進到公部門服務，過去的公教人員犧牲了企業的高薪，他們到公家機關服務，他們奠定了臺灣經濟的基礎，包括現在民進黨常常講的台積電護國神山，也都是那個時候的公務人員辛辛苦苦，由他們擬定計畫所建立起來的，結果現在你說因為他們領太多，所以就把他們的退休金砍了，我覺得這樣子對他們公平嗎？你現在還堂而皇之沾沾自喜，覺得自己的年金改革做得很好，為什麼沒有去思考說應該要提高自己基金的績效？反而去破壞了這樣的一個制度。我真的覺得非常的可惡啦，我現在就是問你啦，如果接下來你還是認為基金的水位不夠，所以你要繼續砍嗎？有沒有？"],["施部長能傑：我們目前不會……"],["葉委員元之：目前沒有，那為什麼之前就用這種方式？代表你有別的方式可以讓基金水位增加嘛，你為什麼不思考這個方式？所以我跟你講，因為召委已經站起來了，所以其實我覺得國民黨版本非常合理，第一沒有要恢復18%，第二也沒有要恢復年改前的所得報酬率，現在只是因為已經砍了那麼多年了，從75%降到67.5%所得替代率，希望你們先停損，先檢討一下，了解一下，如果現在所得替代率到67.5%狀況之下，未來的基金有沒有可能因應？假設提高投資報酬率有沒有可能就以這樣子停損的基礎，就這樣下去，現在只是要做這樣的事情，版本就這樣而已啊，部長你覺得到底為什麼不可以？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，所有基金的財務投資報酬率只是其中一個因素，但是我們這個基金為什麼到目前為止有這麼大的缺口，從一開始就沒有根據基金所精算最適費率做提撥，加上我們所得制度、退休制度……"],["葉委員元之：所以你接下來要怎麼做嘛？接下來你覺得如果有可能破產就要繼續砍人家年金嗎？還是你會找別的方法？"],["施部長能傑：我們要努力繼續維持……"],["葉委員元之：還是你會找別的方法？如果你接下來沒有要砍年金，可以找其他的方法，那為什麼之前要砍人家年金？然後即使就是要砍人家年金，也破壞好不容易建立起來的政府跟人民的信任基礎，我覺得實在是得不償失啦，希望部長可以好好思考一下。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","我們現在先處理會議時間。依照上午的宣告，本日會議繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束及法案提案條文宣讀完畢為止。","接下來我們請李昆澤發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2193d8bd243360dd58d143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d175b23da5efbb1608e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"17:12:02 - 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,["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長辛苦了，午安！我今天站在這裡感到很難過、很惋惜，因為這個國家正在退回無法想像的樣子，因為國民黨今天排案審查公務人員退休資遣撫卹法，名義上是說審查，實質上就是要推翻掉過去蔡英文總統執政努力推動的年改。所以想問部長，目前蔡英文總統執政時期推動的年改版本預計退撫基金可以維持多久？針對於年輕的公務人員是否有同樣保障？"],["施部長能傑：應該當初在推動的時候就設定至少延後一個世代，所以如果一直走下去的話，我們預估會到140年，這中間如果我們再多做比方說財務上的投資，效益會更好，以各式各樣的方式進行，當然可能還會再往後，這是我們當初所希望走的方向。"],["林委員月琴：所以，看起來年改可能就是被誤會，絕對不是歧視公務員、犧牲公務員，實際上反而是為了國家永續發展，或者換句話說，讓每位退休軍公教人員都能夠真正的放心平安，渡過退休後的日子，無需擔心是否國家垮台、基金破產、退休金領不到，我想這是年改的初衷。","第二個要請教部長，有其他黨團提到目前國際局勢動盪，原物料上漲，帶動國內物價的上漲趨勢，可能造成目前退休公務員領取退休金不足以支付生活狀況，請問現況為何？"],["施部長能傑：我想所有的物價指數變動，我們退休公務人員的退休所得本來就會跟著物價做5%左右的調整，所以過去年改以後也調了6%。我們的部裡面的資料顯示，目前所有退休人員，不管他是哪一個年度退休，大概七成左右都會有5萬塊以上或5.1萬以上的月退休金，這個數字其實還是高於勞工體系的月薪資所得。"],["林委員月琴：是啊！現在平均家戶一個人生活大概2萬3,000，所以這5萬塊也是可以過日子。再來就想問，目前國民黨的版本修法如果退回過去，請問我國每一年的財政負擔要增加多少？是否目前有財源可以支應？"],["施部長能傑：應該講我們所有改革是對基金會衝擊，基金我們是根據精算50年來做精算，因為基金要永續，所以如果這個停止的話，我們估算會提早4到5年用罄，然後會減少2,800億左右的挹注。"],["林委員月琴：我們有辦法支撐下去嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我想這對基金是一個很大的挑戰。"],["林委員月琴：所以如果目前現行版本，運作上銓敘部是否有看到什麼窒礙難行之處？"],["施部長能傑：我覺得已經推動5年、6年了，我想順順利利讓它到118年，對基金來講是一個永續的方式，更何況這中間隨著物價會做公務人員調薪，或者是定期就退休人員的部分根據物價來做調整，我們是覺得大家要看到的是可以拿的每個月的錢，其實可能跟大家想像中說的那個60%，其實是不用那麼驚慌啦！"],["林委員月琴：因此本席希望國民黨停止你們掏空國家、掏空臺灣的種種行為，好好的重視下一代的權益，謝謝部長。"],["主席：下一位麻煩葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157943","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157943","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21580b663d94451667d143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d17d9703f2b8768d29e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"17:05:29 - 17:11:27","影片長度":"00:05:58","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T17:05:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T17:11:27+08:00","duration":358,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":8.974718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.34596875,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.41659375,"end":20.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.34221875,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.805968750000005,"end":38.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.99534375,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.80284375000001,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.99909375,"end":96.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.38471875,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.76846875000001,"end":115.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.36721875,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.97034375000001,"end":121.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.91909375,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.69909375,"end":150.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.51784375,"end":156.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.19221875000002,"end":156.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.06534375,"end":164.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.25846875000002,"end":174.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.21034375000002,"end":176.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.19721875000002,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.23034375,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.52034375000002,"end":207.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.44846875000002,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.74534375000002,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.82909375000003,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.94471875000002,"end":227.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.96159375000002,"end":231.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.58971875,"end":237.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.64784375000002,"end":239.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.84159375000002,"end":239.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.85846875000001,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.04409375,"end":240.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.56534375,"end":252.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.02346875,"end":267.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.70221875000004,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.51159375000003,"end":279.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.12221875,"end":280.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.96159375,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.00346875,"end":285.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.70784375,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.28534375000004,"end":289.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.73221875,"end":294.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.82909375,"end":292.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.08221875000004,"end":296.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.72284375000004,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.79034375000003,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.06846875,"end":353.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.47846875000005,"end":353.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.13596875,"end":356.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.76846875,"e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國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157942","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157942","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21a6c775aea057012bd143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d17e70ccf99090aa3605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"16:58:29 - 17:02:52","影片長度":"00:04:23","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T16:58:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T17:02:52+08:00","duration":263,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.72221875,"end":6.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.98346875,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.84346875,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.58409375000001,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.09034375,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.16409375,"end":132.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.66471875,"end":103.20471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.66846875000002,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.75221875,"end":136.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.83659375000002,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.88721875000002,"end":137.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.00534375,"end":139.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.80659375000002,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.97471875000002,"end":261.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.20534375,"end":263.97284375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.791,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11.894,"end":12.815,"text":"負責任負責任的態度"},{"start":41.468,"end":69.133,"text":"那我們剛才來看一下數據我們部長的報告已經很清楚的說明了現在的退休的公務人員七成以上的平均那十之月退休所得是超過五萬元那高碰點的退休者是高達是六到八萬元這已經是高於民間平均的這個新常性的月薪也就是說大概是可以到達現值的公務人員平均月薪的八成"},{"start":70.133,"end":92.069,"text":"這樣子的退休所得水準是否有如部分主張者所說的不足以維持基本生活?我想以這個數當然每個人會對什麼叫基本生活的定義不一樣不過我相信國人一般的這個基本生活來講一個退休人員來講如果你問我的話我應該自己不會用到那麼多錢"},{"start":93.203,"end":114.025,"text":"那我是主要是講說我們現在其實基本上來看的話我認為是已經是這樣的月薪的還有這樣的數字其實已經是高於就像我剛才講的已經多於我們經常信的月薪值了我認為這是對公務人員的過去他們對國家的付出的一個很基本的一個付出我們的這個反應那我想都有了"},{"start":114.565,"end":138.801,"text":"所以我們必須接下來要正式的就是說這個退撫基金有沒有辦法財務永續如果現在我們就貿然終止這個替代率的調降機制那根據你們的這個評估未來50年是不是會減少2800億元的沒錯那是基金用完的時間是提前幾年提前到4到5年對嘛那這樣子有沒有辦法永續"},{"start":140.423,"end":163.679,"text":"當然會對永續有很大的一個衝擊就會有問題在那其實我們任何的政策就是希望他有他的延續性他的永續性那包含公務人員也是那政府當然我們不斷的強調他必須要用完整的皮膚還有充分的對話如果說我們只是單純的想要去討好某一個族群那某一個族群"},{"start":164.019,"end":170.744,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．"},{"start":185.416,"end":203.836,"text":"那這一個確保這個退撫基金的財務永訓訓是不可以短期的訴求來去犧牲基金的長期健全那第二點我還是也要特別在這個地方再強調不需要兼顧每一個世代的權益不可以讓年輕的公務人員來去承擔過重的負擔"},{"start":204.817,"end":231.167,"text":"最後就是我希望說有一個完整的財務影響的評估報告他可以讓我們有機會來跨黨派跨世代的充分討論因為我們不是只是要針對一個世代讓一個世代好我們希望每一個世代都共榮共好所以面對年金制度這一個這麼嚴重的議題我們不能夠在缺乏完整評估專業意見的這個諮詢的狀況之下甚至沒有在社會充分的對話之下那我們就貿然的通過修法"},{"start":231.647,"end":232.167,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":261.22,"end":261.24,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1685,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（16時58分）召委你好，請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，今天我們委員會是討論公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條的修正案，我必須用很嚴正的態度來表達我們的基本立場，那是經過各界的努力，總算在2017年完成了年金改革，我想這已經不只是制度的改革，更是世代正義的實踐，現在如果要貿然停止這個退休所得替代率的調降機制的話，我認為這並不是一個負責任的態度。","我們來看一下數據，部長你的報告已經很清楚地說明了，現在退休公務人員七成以上的平均實支月退休所得超過5萬元，高俸點的退休者是高達6到8萬元，這已經是高於民間平均經常性月薪，也就是說，大概可以到達現職公務人員平均月薪的八成，這樣子的退休所得水準是否有如部分主張者所說的，不足以維持基本生活？"],["施部長能傑：我想以這個數字，當然每個人對什麼叫基本生活的定義不一樣，不過我相信以國人一般的基本生活來講，一個退休人員來講，如果你問我的話，我應該自己不會用到那麼多錢。"],["陳委員冠廷：基本上，我認為這樣的月薪還有這樣的數字，其實已經是高於一般經常性的月薪資了，我認為這是對公務人員過去對國家付出的一個很基本的回應，那我想都有了，所以接下來我們必須要正視的是退撫基金有沒有辦法讓財務永續，如果現在我們就貿然終止替代率的調降機制，根據你們的評估，未來50年是不是會減少2,800億元？"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：基金用完的時間是提前幾年？"],["施部長能傑：提前4到5年。"],["陳委員冠廷：對嘛！那這樣子也有沒有辦法永續。"],["施部長能傑：當然會對永續有很大的一個衝擊。"],["陳委員冠廷：就會有問題在嘛，其實任何的政策就是希望有它的延續性、永續性，包含公務人員也是，當然我們不斷的強調，政府必須要有完整的評估以及充分的規劃，如果我們只是單純的想要去討好某一個族群，讓某一個族群在某些狀況之下支持我們的話，那就是沒有全局觀嘛，所以我在這邊還是希望任何制度的變革都要有完整的評估跟充分的社會對話。剛才前一位伍麗華委員說要加開相關的公聽會，把這樣的事情全部討論，我也認為要繼續這樣做。","第一個，確保退撫基金財務的永續性，是不可以短期的訴求來犧牲基金的長期健全。第二個，我也要特別在這個地方再強調，我們必須要兼顧每一個世代的權益，不可以讓年輕的公務人員來承擔過重的負擔。","最後，就是我希望有一個完整的財務影響評估報告，才可以讓我們有機會來跨黨派、跨世代的充分討論，因為我們不是只要針對一個世代，讓一個世代好，我們希望每一個世代都共榮共好，所以面對年金制度這個這麼嚴重的議題，我們不能夠在缺乏完整評估及專業意見諮詢的狀況之下，甚至沒有在社會充分的對話之下，我們就貿然的通過修法，這樣的倉促決定我認為會直接動搖整個年改的根基。所以我是希望如果可以的話，可以組成專案小組，我們邀請相關的單位、學者專家還有各年齡層的公務人員代表來做研議。改革的路應該是非常不容易的，但是我們希望每一個人都要為我們自己的下一代留下一個更永續的制度，這才是一個負責的態度，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員。","劉建國委員、劉建國委員、劉建國委員。","傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員。","徐巧芯委員、徐巧芯委員、徐巧芯委員。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員。","牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員。","邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員。","李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員。","賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員。","黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員。","馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員。","林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員。","王世堅委員、王世堅委員、王世堅委員。","陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員。","李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員。","陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員。","羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員。","林岱樺委員、林岱樺委員、林岱樺委員。"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛在廁所。"],["主席：沒問題。現在有登記發言委員劉建國委員在場，請問各位委員，對劉建國委員請求發言有無異議？"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["主席：沒有異議，我們接著請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157941","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157941","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d217aec5c7a9e5d2692d143e698449c70dc5012e4539fd53d17235d1795ffdf2ae75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"16:52:35 - 16:58:20","影片長度":"00:05:45","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T16:52:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T16:58:20+08:00","duration":345,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.277843750000002,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.876593750000001,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.910343750000003,"end":16.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":16.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.19659375,"end":29.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.64346875,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.528468750000002,"end":39.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.53534375,"end":41.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.98221875,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.728468750000005,"end":50.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.65596875,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.30159375000001,"end":131.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.38159375,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.89159375,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.02596875,"end":140.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.97096875,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.03846875000002,"end":141.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.13971875000001,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.62909375,"end":141.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.67971875,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.75534375,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.36221875,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.47596875000002,"end":152.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.10409375,"end":165.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.80221875,"end":172.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.31221875,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.82659375,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.88534375,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.12534375,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.12409375000001,"end":192.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.76471875000001,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.53534375,"end":207.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.79596875000001,"end":210.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.63096875000002,"end":213.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.97221875000002,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.87409375000001,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.82721875000001,"end":229.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.54784375000003,"end":244.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.88471875000002,"end":235.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.45284375000003,"end":243.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.17846875,"end":246.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.46909375,"end":248.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.92034375000003,"end":249.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.30409375000002,"end":251.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.63284375,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.11284375,"end":262.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.65221875000003,"end":275.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.86971875,"end":281.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.80971875,"end":289.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員。","現在請謝龍介委員，謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},{"id":"157940","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157940","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21a647d7540d8522c3d143e698449c70dc4e04583d40588c32dd4df15546ecd50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"16:47:30 - 16:52:26","影片長度":"00:04:56","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-05","start_time":"2024-12-05T16:47:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-05T16:52:26+08:00","duration":296,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.072218750000001,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.400343750000001,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.12909375,"end":35.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.42221875,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.58221875,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.33284375,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.22284375,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.23971875,"end":42.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.994718750000004,"end":47.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.66909375,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.072218750000005,"end":62.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.77221875,"end":63.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.565343750000004,"end":69.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.22346875000001,"end":64.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.92721875000001,"end":69.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.94409375000001,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.99471875,"end":71.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.88471875,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.16971875,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.25721875,"end":91.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.93596875,"end":98.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.99034375000001,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":109.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.31346875000001,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.73534375000001,"end":109.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.42721875000001,"end":116.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.05909375,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.03409375,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.73846875,"end":147.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.29096875000002,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.91096875,"end":148.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":178.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.75284375,"end":159.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.90471875,"end":159.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.99471875,"end":185.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.63971875000001,"end":182.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.89221875,"end":185.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.90909375,"end":191.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.11159375000003,"end":186.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.62971875000002,"end":215.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.76096875000002,"end":217.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.16159375,"end":236.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.76471875000001,"end":219.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.73846875,"end":225.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.45034375,"end":232.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.58534375000002,"end":232.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.66909375,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.05221875,"end":245.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.00534375,"end":247.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.06409375,"end":277.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.4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«公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":70.078,"end":70.559,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":91.198,"end":104.061,"text":"所以現在在職的同仁都是在應該都是在這個基金裡面所以就是說我們全國36萬的公務員裡面可能有我在猜大概有33、4萬人是屬於現在還在這個基金因為我印象中我們"},{"start":105.303,"end":109.507,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":125.623,"end":129.886,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":149.399,"end":150.079,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":167.964,"end":172.586,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":185.993,"end":210.099,"text":"沒有錯所以呢我想每一個委員當然都有權利提出法案但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢那另外我也希望來去釐清過去這幾年我們來降低這個所得替代率我們總共四年來節省了2774億嘛"},{"start":213.9,"end":214.4,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案案"},{"start":233.015,"end":245.898,"text":"除了這個以外我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給我們基金因為我們實施新制所以目前在累計撥補了294億左右是明年我們預計目前預計撥補多少190明年的預算194億明年我們預計要撥補給我們退伏基金也就是公務人員未來退休金是194億所以啊我也是要再次的呼籲在野黨因為這個撥補的公務預算194億就是中央的預算"},{"start":260.922,"end":274.293,"text":"現在在野黨第一個還在黨總預算第二個在野黨版本的裁劃法修法會讓中央的預算少了幾千億所以我相當的擔心現在我們公務預算撥補給退府基金的這191未來因為這是一個大水庫"},{"start":277.415,"end":278.176,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1606,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（16時47分）感謝主席，我請銓敘部。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。針對年金改革，我們的主張是要持續進行，因為我們希望年金可以永續，但是非常的遺憾，在野黨提出來的版本是要讓年金改革中止，那現在我們最擔心的，今天銓敘部你們給出來的意見是，你們也認為年金改革應該要繼續嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：最主要的原因是什麼呢？"],["施部長能傑：我想不繼續的話，傷害的是現職的人，然後基金會破產。"],["吳委員沛憶：什麼樣的傷害？"],["施部長能傑：因為基金會提早用罄，所以你就領不到錢，會提早4到5年嘛！所以現在還沒有退休的人，或者最近這幾年進來的人，他們可能到時候都會碰到這個很嚴肅的課題。"],["吳委員沛憶：就是說我們的年金會提早……"],["施部長能傑：對，用罄。"],["吳委員沛憶：用盡？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：現在還在職，未來這些公務員等到他退休的時候，他就領不到退休金了。"],["施部長能傑：因為他需要用這個年金。"],["吳委員沛憶：而這個時間如果年改不繼續，現在就中止的話，會提早4到5年我們年金就會破產，有沒有預估現在在職公務人員受影響的人數是多少？"],["施部長能傑：這個倒沒有特別去算，但是以目前我的理解，因為112年才是新進的同仁，所以現在在職的同仁應該都是在這個基金裡面，絕大部分的人都還是在這個基金……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以全國有36萬的公務員都是……"],["施部長能傑：我在猜大概有三十三、四萬人現在還在這個基金，因為我印象中專戶可能是兩萬多人，新進的專戶大概兩萬多人。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，所以影響的人數是非常大的，而公務人員是我們國家運作的根本啊！不只是臺灣面臨到這個問題，還有世界各國，我們立法機關應該要來支持政府的運作，因為政府不是為我們運作，也不是為你們運作，是為人民去服務。","我另外請問，我們從開始進行年改，所得替代率從75%開始降嘛！我們是逐年調降。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：調到現在，我們替代率是多少？"],["施部長能傑：今年是67.5%。"],["吳委員沛憶：現在是67.5%，我們的目標值是多少？"],["施部長能傑：如果35年年資就是60%。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們目標值最終是希望調降到60%，但是即便到我們的目標60%，其實我們還是比OECD國家平均所得替代率還來得高，因為OECD國家平均所得替代率在57%到58%，也就是說，我們的替代率要調降到多少不是任意決定的，這是符合國際的一個趨勢，臺灣甚至還沒有達到國際的標準，所以我想我們是要去持續進行的。"],["施部長能傑：我也跟委員報告，實際上我們用退休金的計算方式，60%是名目的，實質上是比60%高。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯。我想每一個委員當然都有權提出法案，但是這個數字的計算還是要有一個科學的依據，然後也要符合國際的趨勢跟潮流，而我們正在進行中的年金改革其實就是符合這樣的趨勢。","另外，我也希望釐清，過去這幾年我們降低所得替代率，4年來總共節省了2,774億，這些錢用到哪裡去了？"],["施部長能傑：統統回給基金。"],["吳委員沛憶：也是回到年改基金，所以這些省下來的錢並不是說政府部門拿去作為他途來用。"],["施部長能傑：完全沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：不是，我們拿回來是挹注到退撫基金，也就是在職公務人員他們未來的退休金。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：除了這個以外，我們的公務預算每年是不是還有撥補給基金？"],["施部長能傑：因為我們實施新制，所以目前大概累計撥補了294億左右。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，明年我們預計撥補多少？"],["施部長能傑：明年的預算是194億。"],["吳委員沛憶：明年我們預計要撥補給退撫基金，也就是公務人員未來的退休金是194億，所以我也是要再次的呼籲在野黨，因為撥補的公務預算194億就是中央的預算，現在在野黨第一個，還在擋總預算；第二個，在野黨版本的財劃法修法，會讓中央的預算少了幾千億，所以我相當地擔心，現在公務預算撥補給退撫基金的這194億，因為這是一個大水庫，未來也會受到影響，受害的一樣是在職公務人員他往後退休的福利，所以我希望不分黨派，大家要一起來做全體公務人員的後盾，因為他們跟我們一樣，都是為人民來服務，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員。","接下來請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}