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請問就法案名稱部分有其他意見"},{"start":2071.661,"end":2098.882,"text":"主席我想這個剛剛我對於法案的名稱的意見我是覺得目前的幾個版本都OK那現在我們現在是用逐條的方式還是協商的時候呢依據我們委員會審查的內容先做大體的交換意見好不好因為我們協商你現在說委員會的部分先逐條也是先大體再逐條好不好好那黃委員"},{"start":2101.036,"end":2129.393,"text":"第一個其實我覺得大家自己每一個黨團每一位立法委員我們大家心裡都有數公益揭弊者保護這件事情在我國談了非常非常久真的非常非常久我也知道我們有的時候在做一些國際宣傳的時候去彰顯台灣民主法治的價值我覺得這都非常的正面"},{"start":2130.868,"end":2158.524,"text":"那法務部為了要去處理去慶祝吧或者是說為了要去彰顯我們在這方面的努力然後12月9號也辦了什麼金紙獎嘛12月10號也有那剛好辦這些活動雖然我們是在野黨相關的一些活動我們也都沒受邀連知道都不知道那也沒有關係啦"},{"start":2160.051,"end":2186.045,"text":"因為禮拜天的時候我剛好有機會跟國際透明組織的主席我們因為之前我有跟台灣國際透明組織的有合作那在學者的介紹下我也跟國際透明組織的主席禮拜天的時候就交換了意見他也覺得很詫異說公益揭弊者保護"},{"start":2187.655,"end":2211.388,"text":"這在有關於國際反貪腐也好或者是國際透明組織大家共同的信念OECD會員國的要求這都已經是根深蒂固根深蒂固的概念那怎麼會在台灣拖延了這麼久有各式各樣的理由"},{"start":2212.421,"end":2237.404,"text":"有各式各樣在背後的力量但是從台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我必須要再重申這個是我們選前就已經做出了莊嚴的承諾那針對這件事情我們在11月的時候再度在我們的重大政策的民調當中把這題放進去支持的比例我必須要說是嚇死人的高嚇死人的高"},{"start":2238.507,"end":2265.285,"text":"那現在大家可能在意的事情是說公部門把他納入吹哨者保護按照上一次委員會討論我覺得大部分的人就這件事情應該是有共識不用再講那私部門的部分有委員說有擔心說中小企業會受影響那當然在這個基礎上面私部門的範圍我必須要說啦"},{"start":2267.537,"end":2295.152,"text":"不管是私改國事會議的結論還是聯合國反貪腐公約下面的要求甚至我們找國際的學者專家到台灣來針對我們國家報告進行審查那個意見是很一致的私部門本來就應該要同時納入保護的範圍當中這個是很清楚的事情開了這麼多會白紙黑字的記錄全部都在這裡"},{"start":2296.55,"end":2322.466,"text":"那如果說大家要去考慮到說那台灣有很多中小企業那在中小企業的部分施行衝擊會不會太大我先講我自己個人的信念跟價值立場我們現在針對有關的吹哨者的保護事實上是擅見在很多特定的法規當中食品安全衛生"},{"start":2327.321,"end":2343.83,"text":"公務法等這些都有在那些規範的脈絡裡面大家其實仔細去看根本就沒有在區分說要把私部門或是中小企業排除在外所以在理念上我們還是認為所有私部門要把它納入規範的範圍但是在現實上"},{"start":2354.212,"end":2382.592,"text":"在現實上如果把私部門全部納入規範的範圍會引發在整個議事程序上面很多的阻礙很多的不順利那我們台灣民眾黨黨團是有空間我必須要先講是有空間針對私部門納的範圍可以來討論我所謂有空間把私部門納的範圍來討論就是大家如果真的都擔心"},{"start":2383.922,"end":2413.161,"text":"中小企業一下子可能比較難適應或者是說怎麼在法制的教育上法尊的遵循上會產生什麼重大的困難等等等等那我們是有空間可以討論在私部門的部分就把中小企業排除在規範的範圍之外就把中小企業排除在規範的範圍之外但是如果"},{"start":2414.909,"end":2442.497,"text":"排除了中小企業以後包括了上市櫃公司都要排除在外那這樣的立場我們可能就沒有辦法能夠接受那事實上大家有不同的態度跟看法我覺得在台灣這個多元民主的社會當中很正常都沒有關係那就把各自的黨團大家的看法的立場就拿版本出來"},{"start":2443.683,"end":2469.239,"text":"拿單本出來討論那大家看有共識的條文譬如說法案的名稱法案的名稱應該是不會有什麼太大的爭執吧那有共識的部分就先通過那沒有共識牽涉到有關於政策立場的部分我沒有做任何預測譬如說有黨團認為公佈門就好"},{"start":2472.383,"end":2499.13,"text":"那有黨團認為公部門加國營事業就好那我們是認為公部門加上一定規模以上的私人企業都應該要納入整個揭弊者保護法的範疇各自有立場各自有版本那就每一個黨團為自己的版本跟立場負責任因為我覺得這個事情真的拖了太久了"},{"start":2500.689,"end":2526.724,"text":"2019年的時候我老實講行政院提出了院版委員會也完成了審查甚至那個時候在召委段宜康召集協商我們也進行了黨團協商那個時候在2019年到最後一步黨團委員會裡面的黨團協商的時候事實上保留的條文已經沒有幾條了啦保留的條文已經沒有幾條"},{"start":2527.935,"end":2552.522,"text":"因為我特地去拿2019年那時候協商會議的紀錄我把它調出來看那之前我也有請求秘書長以後這些協商會議的紀錄可以上網就盡量上網因為這都是公開的資訊嘛這又不是幾個人躲在小房間裡面去搞出來的東西這個都是公開的資訊讓大家看嘛看2019年我們討論到什麼地方卡住哪裡重大的歧異在"},{"start":2553.717,"end":2568.66,"text":"在什麼重大的起義到底在什麼地方那我們新的這一屆的國會在這個基礎上面那當然你要改變你的看法也沒有關係你可以提新的理由改變你的看法"},{"start":2569.332,"end":2593.361,"text":"但我覺得最重要的事情是說這部法案一定要往前走這部法案一定要往前走不能繼續留在原地踏步因為我本來是想說其實上一次在委員會討論的時候有很多委員有各式各樣的高見我們一路從早上討論到下午我如果沒記錯的話從早上9點開始開會進入主條討論到下午5點"},{"start":2598.26,"end":2611.92,"text":"大家不同的看法、不同的觀點其實都已經呈現出來了有不一樣的價值選擇有不一樣的取進那這個都沒有關係但你總要繼續往前走吧"},{"start":2612.574,"end":2638.314,"text":"那如果今天黨團協商我們還是又回復到那一天那樣的狀態的話那老實說沒有任何推進實際上面的效果那今天大家坐在這邊進行這樣的黨團協商如果啦就是沒有要做針對這個事情大家就從條文或者是名稱就一步一步走下去的話"},{"start":2640.195,"end":2647.02,"text":"重新回到那時候委員會討論的狀態我就不知道說這樣到底有什麼太多積極的意義那莊委員謝謝召委還有在場的委員、列席的官員我看這樣子這部法令我們也討論很久了其實大家把不同的意見都有一個表達"},{"start":2666.246,"end":2689.908,"text":"各個黨團的意見其實大家都很清楚那整個上次我們在談的時候公部門先行這個部分我相信大家也都有共識啦那至於黃國昌委員剛剛提到說各個政黨把他自己的版本拿出來這個我都非常同意啦我也都非常同意啦我相信從整個揭弊者保護法草案"},{"start":2690.973,"end":2698.012,"text":"我們從以前不管是從大理討論或主條討論我所提出來的意見都不是反對的立場"},{"start":2699.246,"end":2728.04,"text":"我提的就是說這部法律怎麼樣讓它更精緻然後在法尊的部分衝擊到整個中小企業的部分我們立法院如何來做一個安排跟處理考量的都是這一些啦倒也不是說黃委員的哪一個條文我反對或誰的條文哪一個條文都不是我每一條我都有說理都有說理那一到現在走到現在來的話上次我們提的事都是保留送院會嘛那既然黃委員這樣提啦"},{"start":2728.86,"end":2751.277,"text":"我是覺得也很合理我是覺得就算我也是先在這邊跟法務部講啦就算你們不提出版本喔如果你們不提那我就要來提囉你像比如說我很在意的你那個惡意的揭弊的部分那個確實那個部分應該是更完整的一個做一個規範"},{"start":2752.728,"end":2777.903,"text":"因為有共識了嘛 要走了嘛至少你公益的部分看起來這部分都沒有爭議了嘛那是不是我建議啦 也不用吃雞都剝肉啦就讓 給個時間 看法務部提你不提 我就很抱歉啦 我就自己要來提案啦因為畢竟談到現在 公益的部分 這公部門先行的部分大家已經有共識了 以上總召委"},{"start":2785.765,"end":2807.263,"text":"我想揭弊者不管是公益揭弊還是揭弊名稱為何其實各黨團對於社會共同的呼籲誠如剛剛幾位委員所發言的不管黨團就算是有在條文上設計的差異大家的目標是一致的很多的價值高唱露雲其實到終究我們還是回歸到條文要怎麼樣去規劃"},{"start":2808.544,"end":2830.303,"text":"因為正義可以很素樸的提出它的價值跟方向但是法條的設計上一定要能周延的呼應到每個執行面上能夠顧及到當時這個素樸正義所要堅持的結果所以法律就是透過這樣的一個制定的過程讓目標可以透過程序落實到所要達到的結果那我們來看一下"},{"start":2831.084,"end":2843.428,"text":"回顧這次我們在委員會也是目前吳釗偉所主持的情況之下我們看到的有7個版本包括台灣民眾黨的版本以及包括國民黨黨員國民黨黨團成員有6個版本"},{"start":2847.91,"end":2867.712,"text":"那這七個版本我們討論之後我幫大家回顧一下今天我們的黨團協商我們通過了兩個條文其中是第八條林月琴案的第八條這裡面包括民進黨林月琴的委員也有一個第八條以及國民黨的吳釗偉的第十一條"},{"start":2868.68,"end":2882.752,"text":"那全部的條文呢 一共有17條大概各版本的條次差不多大概有到17條左右那麼有的比較長的 有的到24條那大概17條、18條、19條但是這就算是19條好了啦以我們這個吳昭偉的版本 這19條的版本呢目前我們通過了兩個條次"},{"start":2891.699,"end":2913.164,"text":"包括名稱的部分都是說保留送院會處理不過我這裡特別要提出來因為上次在委員會我們也非常的認真的討論那麼各黨團的成員都踴躍的就各個版本的內容來做一些發言倒是這裡面我們看到幾個包括吳釗緯所提的關於第一條的修正動議"},{"start":2914.224,"end":2929.447,"text":"那為什麼在大體討論的時候去呼應剛剛幾位委員的發言呢因為這個修正動議就是我們上次委員會大家討論後似乎要謀求一個凝聚共識的結果"},{"start":2930.568,"end":2958.242,"text":"縱使後來仍然是做成保留送院會處理但是我們來看一下我現在還是做大體的討論我沒有說是主條我們看到那幾個修正動議的被拿出來做討論第一個是吳昭偉所提出來的第一條那這裡面呢很開宗明義的在第一條的第一項當中就寫了公部門及國營事業那這一個修正動議很清楚的將其他的七個版本其他的七個版本呢做一個"},{"start":2959.491,"end":2976.3,"text":"全面性的修正那這個修正動議我相信是相較於我今天討論的七個版本往前邁了一步是不是大家要討論就是在以公部門及國營事業但是為什麼會保留呢就是國營事業的定義啦"},{"start":2977.476,"end":2988.968,"text":"其實呢 這個修正動議跟其他七個版本的最大不同就是其他七個版本都是公部門及私部門政府機關、公司及商業之內部那大概意識上都是公跟私"},{"start":2991.241,"end":3006.092,"text":"吳兆偉所提的修正動議他把公的部分保留了但是其他的部分他把它擴及到國營事業他並不是到私部門就是公部門再往前踏了一步是國營事業但是國營事業的範疇在委員會討論的時候就開始產生一個範圍上的討論這是第一個我是建議我們從大體討論來看一看上次修正動議的內容"},{"start":3014.827,"end":3040.524,"text":"那第二個修正動議呢也是吳釗偉所提出來是第七條那第七條當時呢就是指對於揭弊者保護的這些防止對他不利的一些措施那我相信大家如果看一下我們目前會診版的第十七頁十六頁十七頁這些內容大概也是針對其他的七個版本做一個比較完整的一個柔和但是呢一樣"},{"start":3041.89,"end":3064.956,"text":"這個修正動議在討論到其他版本是第7條的時候仍然是保留我是覺得這個部分我覺得可以在這個基礎之上成如剛剛黃總召所說的我們希望能夠往前推進可以先從修正動議的部分來看一看當時透過修正動議總要彙整凝聚整合的這些條文內容上我們可不可以把它往前推進"},{"start":3065.896,"end":3080.708,"text":"那我還再強調一次今天未必我們的黨團協商可以將全部的18、9個條文全部的能夠有一個完一致的共識但是如果我們那其中的幾個條文能夠往前推進"},{"start":3082.009,"end":3098.799,"text":"有些共識,未來在處理的時候,我想我們也幫院會在處理本案的時候做一個努力接下來我們再看第三個修正動議,那麼就是第10條,也是吳釗偉所提的修正動議這當中是指對於違反揭弊者保護的一些處罰,那是針對"},{"start":3103.476,"end":3114.912,"text":"公務人員、位居公務人員那這裡面呢一樣為什麼當時在這個修正動議儘管做了整合但是仍然沒有獲得一致的共識就是裡面提到國營事業的部分"},{"start":3120.241,"end":3140.39,"text":"吳釗偉提出三個修正動議我是建議黨團協商可以就這三個修正動議所要努力去整合的部分我在這裡談一個大體討論的思考在上次委員會的審查當中其實大家談到不管叫做揭弊者或者公益揭弊我們其中一個考慮就是惡意揭弊的部分"},{"start":3141.21,"end":3163.345,"text":"二億揭弊的部分我們在黨團協商的我們第15條文當中對於二億揭弊不納入保護這個部分其實大家是有所琢磨但是是不是已經足夠還有包括不受保護後的這些裁罰也就是說二億揭弊是我們在推動揭弊者"},{"start":3164.383,"end":3193.789,"text":"保護法當中很重要的區別既然我們要保護揭弊者而且是基於公益的理由跟他保護那麼相對的惡意揭弊是不保護的那惡意揭弊的不保護我們規定分別出在我們協商條文的第15條跟第16條包括不保護的範圍不保護之後對於惡意揭弊者的裁罰如何的去予以具體的規範我想這是我們在委員會當時有稍微觸及但是似乎沒有辦法有一個共識的地方"},{"start":3194.269,"end":3213,"text":"那以上是建議在黨團協商的時候在大體討論的部分建議先就上次吳釗緯所提的三個修正動議以及我剛剛所提出來的兩點包括15條、16條惡意揭弊的第二層的處罰以及不受保護的裁罰的這個部分我們來進行意見交換以上建議黃委員第一個對各個委員所提出來的修正動議我們都尊重"},{"start":3223.188,"end":3252.069,"text":"但沒有道理以特定委員的修正動議來當作討論的範圍我必須要先說清楚上一次召委基於善意提出了你的修正動議台灣民眾黨黨團我們尊重召委提出修正動議的權利它只是其中討論的一個版本我沒有辦法理解為什麼如果大家有所推進的話那就就實質的條文來處理嘛"},{"start":3253.407,"end":3272.758,"text":"那為什麼要以特定的修正動議來當作討論最優先的事項或者是範圍其實我們打開天窗說亮話就三個不同的立場一個只有公部門一個公部門加上國營事業國營事業的定義一點都不困難在國營事業法裡面就有規範一點都不困難"},{"start":3281.091,"end":3308.015,"text":"國營事業法裡面就有規範啊我們就按照既有的規範就把它納入第二種政策選擇的主體範圍那第三個除了公部門國營事業以外一定範圍一定範圍一定範圍的私部門我們認為要把它納入進來那未來的話那些大財團大金控用中小企業當作幌子"},{"start":3309.298,"end":3332.963,"text":"不把他們納入規範的範圍當中這樣子的立場我們沒辦法接受那你三個大的就是這個三個大的不一樣的立場那就各個黨團按照自己所要支持的立場提出版本在條文的部分有共識就有共識沒有共識就沒有共識"},{"start":3334.728,"end":3362.249,"text":"對台灣民眾黨黨團來講我必須要先說明一個清楚的事情是說惡意揭弊的這個事情要怎麼處理要怎麼規範我們沒有特定的立場我們沒有特定的立場我們保持一個開放的態度但是在立法程序的過程當中有一件事情我們一定要說清楚講明白"},{"start":3363.317,"end":3380.634,"text":"因為我絕對不能讓台灣民眾黨黨團背負根本就不存在的惡名什麼叫不讓台灣民眾黨黨團背負根本就不存在的惡名我先從惡意揭弊這件事情來講去年在選舉的時候"},{"start":3384.588,"end":3406.912,"text":"就有側翼在攻擊台灣民眾黨黨團說什麼說所有的版本裡面有追究惡意揭弊的懲罰惡意揭弊納入提案的就是只有民眾黨的立院黨團指的是上一屆國會上一屆的國會民眾黨黨團的提案民眾黨黨團"},{"start":3411.226,"end":3437.134,"text":"他們棄於考慮說要把惡意揭弊要把它放進去結果竟然成為在選舉的時候攻擊民眾黨黨團的素材這個都有公開的資訊當初揭露的是什麼當初揭露的事情是有一個大集團叫做永豐集團在找什麼政治公關的時候強烈要求在揭弊者保護法納入懲罰惡意揭弊者條款"},{"start":3438.752,"end":3458.625,"text":"這不是我說的這個是去年提出來對台灣民眾黨黨團的攻擊那當然那是上一屆的國會我也相信上一屆台灣民眾黨黨團的立場怎麼可能會因為這些大裁團或大監控因為他們所以才要把惡意揭弊把它納入規範的範圍這個事情說清楚講明白"},{"start":3464.298,"end":3476.907,"text":"第二個回到今天我們所要處理的事情上面回到今天要處理的事情上面是說所謂的大體討論上一次委員會大體討論的還不夠嗎還是說一定要限在特定的範圍當中才願意繼續走下去否則不願意繼續走下去大體討論不外乎就我剛講的那三種規範模式嘛"},{"start":3491.718,"end":3507.602,"text":"只有政府機關第一種第二種政府機關加國營事業第三種政府機關加國營事業加入一定規模以上的私部門大概就這三種不一樣的不一樣的狀態那不一樣的狀態其實從上一次委員會的發言好幾個小時耶所有條文幾乎啦全部被保留"},{"start":3519.215,"end":3544.031,"text":"都是為了這個基本立場上面都不一樣那我們所謂的大體討論上一次在委員會討論的時候從早上9點到下午4、5點還不夠清楚嗎大家基本上的立場是什麼想法是什麼我相信都講得很透徹了啦那第二個部分我也感謝莊惠雄委員"},{"start":3545.582,"end":3569.713,"text":"莊委員今天也表達一定的善意出來說那我們就繼續往下走然後他剛說他要去提那個惡意揭弊的條款這個我都尊重每個黨團本來就有提案提修正動議的什麼提修正動議的權利嘛這個我們都尊重那但是我是希望啊如果這個協商要有任何意義的話就不要繼續"},{"start":3571.584,"end":3600.661,"text":"在基本立場的事情上面空轉因為看起來就不會有共識嘛看起來就不會有共識我為什麼說看起來就不會有共識第一個我先講第一個台灣民眾黨黨團我們不會接受我們不會接受只有公部門加國營企業我們一定會納入一定規模以上"},{"start":3602.005,"end":3602.345,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團不會支持"},{"start":3625.455,"end":3651.676,"text":"不會支持因為這個不是黨團少數的幾個人的看法那個是支持這項改革非常多的朋友以及我們的支持者大家共同的看法那在這件事情上面我們作為民意代表就是反映民意反映把選票投給我們送我們到立法院來的人他們希望所達成的改革目標那最後一個事情"},{"start":3653.442,"end":3678.433,"text":"行政部門隨時要提修正動議出來我們都歡迎但請容我這樣講本院沒有必要也不應該再等行政部門要提修正動議隨時歡迎今天要提明天要提後天要提隨時要提我們都歡迎但是沒有任何的道理等行政部門等得夠久了吧等得夠久了吧"},{"start":3682.895,"end":3701.908,"text":"整個立法院的程序會因為你行政部門抗拒不提出你們的版本大家就一直等嗎等得夠久了啦你不要說從2017年斯卡國事會議做了承諾到今天開始算了你急於是以新的國會3月第一次在總執行的時候問當時的行政院院長就說在演議嘛"},{"start":3711.437,"end":3719.383,"text":"新的行政院院長也在研議嗎?還要研議多久?繼續研議下去嗎?研議到2028年嗎?台灣公民社會等的已經夠久了所以我還是具體的建議"},{"start":3729.639,"end":3753.877,"text":"大體的看法各位黨團表示他們的立場台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我剛已經清楚表達我也沒有要強迫其他的黨團一定要接受我們的立場我也不會主張所以你不採取我的立場大家就不要往下走每一個黨團每一個立委有他自己的看法我們都尊重就按照民主程序下去"},{"start":3754.841,"end":3766.566,"text":"那還是說這個基本的立場沒有辦法收容有個基本的共識不要往下走今天會議要這樣進行嗎看等一下請主席查一事我都尊重"},{"start":3769.167,"end":3793.782,"text":"我先表示一下意見就是說當然是我先謝謝那個中召委還要拿以我的修正動議的版本出來討論但是因為我們現在其實有三個不同的版本嘛對不對我說主要以主要來說有三個不同就剛剛黃委員有提到的"},{"start":3795.797,"end":3813.635,"text":"公司部門或是像我提的公部門加國營企業或是說像那個台灣民眾黨希望的是公部門加國營企業再加部分的私部門那現在至少就有這三個"},{"start":3814.616,"end":3838.951,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":3845.285,"end":3865.075,"text":"那這樣子的話變成說因為照之前的做法是如果有黨團沒有出來的話變成說協商就不成立對就沒辦法協商沒有關係啊那就會議紀錄嘛就協商不成立嘛我們接下來就按照議事規則處理啊對"},{"start":3870.857,"end":3893.295,"text":"那這樣齁 那我請問一下各位委員那我們需不需要讓法務部說明一下因為剛剛中委員有說請法務部要提沒有 我沒有說請法務部說明一下沒有沒有 中委員 中委員那有說看是不是法務部要提那我們就請法務部3分鐘講一下好不好好 那麻煩法務部好 我們請那個聯合組這邊說明一下目前的願版的進度好了齁"},{"start":3896.246,"end":3908.73,"text":"主席委員,謝謝各位對《揭弊者保護法》的關切本署在《揭弊者保護法草案》中,目前總共召開過12次審查會本署也提了總共15項草案"},{"start":3913.372,"end":3937.492,"text":"但是因為每次在立法這個政策上面都會因為當時的一個需求然後再必須要兼顧不同的意見所以說目前就是行政院這邊的一個情況是認為說採取公私分流跟公部門先行的一個立法策略但是整個版本上還在行政院做一個研議那我們上一次在開完我們的一個這個"},{"start":3938.813,"end":3938.973,"text":"黃偉業第一個"},{"start":3969.082,"end":3993.301,"text":"行政院永遠都在演繹中啊上一次委員會的時候你們的態度講得很清楚了今天完全不出大家所料我們的行政院持續在演繹當中嗎這個是第一件事情第二個立法政策上面立場的事情我上次在委員會裡面我已經有點過了現在就可以把話講得更白了"},{"start":3995.254,"end":4017.104,"text":"當然是有政策上面的問題要不然2017年全國司改會議是開假的當然是有政策選擇的問題嘛要不然2017年司改國事會議是開假的司改國事會議都做決議啦但沒有關係啊也讓大家清楚的知道執政黨的立場"},{"start":4018.419,"end":4028.183,"text":"斯卡國際會議的決議也不是鐵律啦反正就是一個大敗敗的會議嘛參考的性質嘛隨著情勢的變遷嘛隨著情勢的改變嘛隨著執政者態度的改變嘛隨時都可以變動吹哨者保護法就是一個最清楚最具體的例子最清楚最具體的例子"},{"start":4047.23,"end":4075.92,"text":"那第三個部分既然行政院要研議啊就讓行政院繼續研議下去啊你們就慢慢的研議啊不斷的研議啊持續的研議啊但是台灣民眾黨黨團主張啊在立法院裡面的立法程序啊沒有必要因為行政院的研議啊而有任何的遲緩因為你們研議的夠久啦兩千多天啊兩千多天啊"},{"start":4082.955,"end":4096.76,"text":"沒錯清楚的看出來今天這個黨團協商民眾黨黨團出席了民進黨黨團出席了行政部門應邀列席來做說明也到了"},{"start":4098.103,"end":4120.103,"text":"哪一個黨團沒有派代表來我不曉得昭偉是不是代表國民黨黨團我剛剛很客氣的用昭偉所提出的修正動議希望以昭偉提出的修正動議某個程度上能促進三個黨團在不同版本之間的差別意見但是至於有人口口聲聲都說當年的司改會議如何如何如今應如何如何所以要說明一點"},{"start":4121.448,"end":4137.64,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團在上一屆所提的法案民眾黨團本身的立場如何我不是很清楚因為民眾黨黨團的立場我也經常捉摸不定包括現在黃總召所發言的立場"},{"start":4138.991,"end":4162.326,"text":"也經常在隨著時事在改變如果要說司改會議的決議有這樣的拘束力那我們也可以問當年的年金改革開了20多場的全國性的座談會凝聚的共識現在也是由黨團要來翻案也要將逐年下調的所得替代率要將它停止試用"},{"start":4163.248,"end":4181.483,"text":"所以一句老話套句剛剛所發言的此一時彼一時隨著時事的變遷任何黨團都可以拿今日之我來反對昨日之我誠如我們之前也不過上會期類似的黨團協商就在相關的立職法所謂的擴權法案當中"},{"start":4182.083,"end":4201.216,"text":"也有人口口聲聲拿著民進黨之前的版本號稱說民進黨之前支持的怎麼現在反對了彷彿現在擴選法案民進黨不同意是因為我們違背了當時我們的堅持跟要求不然呢正是因為過去的所提出的版本如果發現跟時代"},{"start":4202.037,"end":4202.698,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4224.457,"end":4250.163,"text":"原來的七個版本只有兩種條文語句啦就是公部門跟私部門或者是政府機關及公司及商業就這樣兩種版本而已啊一個是公部門私部門一個是政府機關及商業就這樣子啊這也是公司啊兩個是一個是公司部門一個是公跟商業部門一樣的意思其實原來的七個版本都是說公司併進但是"},{"start":4252.984,"end":4272.706,"text":"召委所提出來的修正動議其實是說以公部門為主外擴到國營事業剛剛有提到說國營事業定義有啊國營事業法有寫啊有三個定義啊但是為什麼還是在張禮石委員會上是不能達成共識呢大家還是覺得是不是由公部門來先做還是由黨團堅持一定要公私並進同時來做"},{"start":4274.668,"end":4290.328,"text":"那大家對公私併進大家擔心的並不是對於所謂的大財團這些社會動輒觀瞻的大財團的這些揭弊大家擔心的是以台灣中小企業的體質這麼的多的私部門能否承擔當然大家也提到了剛剛也聽到了對這些私部門"},{"start":4291.414,"end":4306.707,"text":"也擔心過度的擾民對於中小企業把這個揭弊者的這樣的法條設計要他們來承受法尊的成本似乎呢有違我們社會一般的常理所以大家才會在私部門要不要同時公司併進採了一個"},{"start":4309.861,"end":4311.102,"text":"今天不在場的是國民黨黨團國民黨黨團提了五個版本"},{"start":4334.468,"end":4363.808,"text":"提了五個版本啊沒有人到場啊民進黨有一個版本啊民眾黨有一個版本啊我們的版本有些些微的不同我們拿出來討論所以今天如果黨團協商不能達成共識是因為黨團並未全員到齊其實就算是如此我還是要誠懇的建議我們的主席過去有黨團未出席的情況之下如果大家願意交換意見也很好但是如果覺得有黨團缺席我們無法進行推進不可能達成協商的共識那就到此為止我也不反對"},{"start":4364.668,"end":4383.109,"text":"但是今天絕對不是說誰或哪個黨團誰的立場反覆或者說對這樣的一個利益崇高良善的一個目的我們有所保留又質疑迴避或辜負了社會的期待沒有這樣的情況我們希望揭弊者保護法能夠"},{"start":4384.17,"end":4411.392,"text":"能夠穩健地踏出第一步就像當年的國民法官法爭論很多參審製陪審製討論很多但是我們終究踏出了第一步所以我想以國民法官法的推動為例我希望我們是穩健地踏步但是至於說要用過去的所謂的什麼國事會議司法國事會議年金改革國事會議以這樣的一個標準要求大家一起遵行那先看看自己的立場有沒有前後反覆再說"},{"start":4414.464,"end":4429.735,"text":"黃委員那個今天看起來我目前在檯面上面的單本事實上大的政策立場上只有兩種一種就是公司部門都要有一種是公司部門都要有現在目前所提出來的"},{"start":4441.357,"end":4447.459,"text":"1234567我看了目前檯面上的7個版本全部都是公司部門要處理包括了民進黨林月琴等17人提案也是公司部門要處理第二個朝野的修正動議有把它限縮到國營企業這個是第二種版本"},{"start":4467.848,"end":4493.221,"text":"第三種版本如果只要有公部門的話我到目前為止在檯面上面根本沒有看到只有公部門的提案完全沒有看到只有公部門的提案在完全沒有看到有公部門提案之下我們接下來討論的標的只有兩種情況一個是什麼一個是公司部門合併第二個就是召委所提出來的修正版本"},{"start":4500.294,"end":4506.823,"text":"所以今天如果黨團協商沒有辦法繼續下去那就沒有辦法繼續下去嘛我們接下來就按照議事規則來進行"},{"start":4511.474,"end":4534.623,"text":"因為今天有黨團代表沒有出席那我想說也沒有辦法達成共識那即使今天只有民眾黨跟民進黨代表也都有對於一些東西根本就沒有辦法達成共識那我想說對於那個國民黨今天確實是沒有來因為今天到場的兩位都沒有辦法達成共識那國民黨還只是更不會達成共識"},{"start":4536.704,"end":4565.282,"text":"不是啦!不是啦!不是啦!我是說...哎呀!你...那個齁...那個...我覺得每次都...每次都斷章取義別人的意見算了那我就不多說了這種齁...我這真的是...沒有啦!朝野我具體建議啦!沒有啦!沒有關係啦!我知道你很辛苦從委員會審查一直到今天誰想要推進這個法案"},{"start":4566.702,"end":4579.526,"text":"誰不想推進這個法案每一個人都在看大家心裡都有數所有的人關心的人大家都在看大家心裡都有數根本不用多說什麼啦那現實上面就是我們就按照意識規則處理"},{"start":4587.112,"end":4614.233,"text":"我主張要只限於公部門的就請你們趕快把版本拿出來要不然的話超級可笑只有一種抽象的主張說只要公部門那只要公部門的版本在哪裡沒有啊行政部門沒有提執政黨的立委沒有提我們怎麼會討論一個根本就不存在的法案呢完全到目前為止檯面上沒有任何一個版本是只規範公部門的啊"},{"start":4615.205,"end":4618.995,"text":"花了這麼多時間去討論一個根本不存在的提案這要讓國人看一下的話"},{"start":4624.588,"end":4645.647,"text":"有主張只要限規範公佈門的那就拜託趕快把版本提出來那沒有的話我們接下來就按照議事規則走我很尊重昭偉我也知道昭偉你提你的修正動議基本上是希望在現實的情況下法案走得比較順利您提的修正動議中國國民黨黨團的立場我們都尊重"},{"start":4648.618,"end":4676.989,"text":"但台灣民眾黨黨團有台灣民眾黨黨團的政策立場跟我們的堅持因為我看到那個民調的結果我不可能看到這麼高比例的民調將近八成是支持公司部門同時要處理然後我放著這個民調的結果裝作沒有看到用各式各樣的理由要去幫一些財團開脫我打開天窗塑料化這件事情絕對不可能"},{"start":4678.203,"end":4706.702,"text":"我到院會表決書都沒有關係啊在院會表決留下記錄嘛每一個黨團為他自己所提出來的版本負責任那行政部門提不出任何的版本這個也不是什麼奇怪的事情啊常常很多重要的、關鍵的法案我們的行政部門卻於提出他們的版本表達自己的政策立場揭弊者保護法也不是第一個啊"},{"start":4708.089,"end":4722.265,"text":"之前跳票的集合法也沒提出來啊兩岸協議監督條例也沒提出來啊所在多有啊那行政部門反正都是尊重本院的審議嘛那尊重本院的審議就既有的版本拿出來按照議事規則處理以上"},{"start":4727.697,"end":4741.303,"text":"謝謝黃委員因為我立場是這樣就是說其實中國國民黨有提出五個版本嘛那我自己當初也是希望是公司部門都包含在內那當然後來我是希望蠻希望說這"},{"start":4743.384,"end":4763.797,"text":"這個揭弊者保護法能夠趕快的過關所以我在範圍的部分我自己有稍微限縮一點但是我有提了一個附帶決議就是即使我有限縮但是我也要求三年的時間後要把它加進去所以我覺得每個人都有每個人立場那我們都是彼此尊重大家對於法律的見解提出"},{"start":4766.178,"end":4792.368,"text":"其實大家也都看得出來啦其實以國民黨立場或是民眾黨立場都非常希望這個法案能夠趕快過即使我們對於這個範圍的部分也許大家有不同的意見但這個都可以在日後的比如朝野協商什麼他們都可以達成一個共識那我們也會對於最後出來的那共識予以尊重這也是我的立場但如果說最後大家的決議認為說公司全部包進去那我也是接受啊"},{"start":4792.748,"end":4812.899,"text":"我想說就是每個人提出自己的想法但是我的想法就是的主軸還是希望這個法案能夠趕快過關我想說跟大家的想法是一樣的那因為民進黨他一直沒有提出一個東西出來他一直講一些理念所以我們也不可能再等下去啦因為好像林委員那個話有撤調是不是"},{"start":4816.531,"end":4837.049,"text":"那個我要說明一下林委員撤掉那個我們已經提出覆議了那我必須要清楚的說明啊原則上各個委員提的版本他要撤我每意見但這個情況不一樣我們在司法法制委員會認真討論每一個條文包括他的版本在裡面"},{"start":4839.91,"end":4858.611,"text":"甚至通過了他的版本對 有一條是通過還是民進黨黨團認為要接受他的版本司法法制委員會都已經審議完了還通過了那個條文然後才說他要把他的法案撤回那我們那天在司法法制委員會那麼認真在審法案的立委大家都是什麼 吃飽太閒喔"},{"start":4860.683,"end":4889.146,"text":"所以台灣民眾黨黨團的立場很清楚啊我們是不同意他把那個給撤回啦他那個把撤回了那我們在社會法制委員會好不容易過的那個條文所花的時間全部都周恩發掉了沒有道理啊讓他沒有道理去容認啦這樣浪費大家時間的行為那因為這樣齁就是因為剛剛鍾釗緯講那個也不是啦因為我不是說把今天"},{"start":4890.981,"end":4891.221,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4915.235,"end":4942.541,"text":"兩個政黨我沒有那個話我覺得每次講話都被斷章取義我也不是很喜歡這樣那我想說不管如何今天我們的協商確實事實就是因為有黨團代表沒有出席所以沒有辦法達成共識所以我們後續還是依照以往我們的做法我們就依據立法院職權刑事法第12章的規定辦理我想說我們就這樣子處理了那請問黃委員還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":4944.164,"end":4958.259,"text":"同意就按照議事規則處理好謝謝黃委員這樣的話我們今天的協商就沒有成立後續我們就依據資源刑事法第12章的規定辦理那就謝謝各位現在就散會"}]}},{"id":"16362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16362","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0dfec178494a9b519cf2440b87fc8110978081dad70f87c46d708d5dfb0d1e9445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-12T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：一、繼續研商「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算及綜計表–營業及非營業部分」案。二、研商各黨團推舉社會公正人士組成「課程審議會委員審查會」相關事宜。三、繼續研商「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」案。（國民黨黨團提議））","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-12T09:44:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-12T12:12:00+08:00","duration":8857,"影片長度":"02:27:37","委員發言時間":"09:44:23 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":1124.8,"text":"我是先講,那這樣子哪一個案子又要等哪個委員,這個都很怪吧?那黨編的時間都在這裡啊,所以建議院長我們就照...瞭解瞭解,好。那個,教練不好意思,我們還是在38案,我們邊討論邊等陳玉珍委員好嗎?請,柯總召請。也不用什麼等啦齁。"},{"start":1126.397,"end":1149.677,"text":"他要資料等一下國會會補給他嘛至於本案嘛,38號本案我們就競表同意,表就表決啊。表決,好。表決,不會保留,表決吧。那接下來我們...等一下,陳昕臻來了,他要資料趕快給他。好,國發會的劉主委麻煩陳昕臻委員所取的資料,麻煩一下。"},{"start":1152.389,"end":1181.472,"text":"好,我們謝謝劉主委,謝謝。好,謝謝劉主委。那我們接下來進入到九十一案,農業,那保留了,不要保留了。我們現在進入...劉主委跟各位官員請回,微笑。吳保請回,吳保請回。我們第九十一案,九十二案,九十三案,九十四案,同科目。好,黃總統請。是不是可以請他們先留步?"},{"start":1182.389,"end":1204.188,"text":"OK 柳主委對不起請稍待一下那個謝謝院長喔因為"},{"start":1206.912,"end":1220.165,"text":"表決歸表決我們也是到現在這個時刻才比較有機會看他們具體執行的狀況跟執行的細目那當然具體執行的狀況跟執行的細目"},{"start":1227.168,"end":1227.308,"text":"我相信﹖"},{"start":1244.285,"end":1270.904,"text":"促進轉型正義這樣子的一個理念大家都支持只不過說從過去促轉委員會成立以來風波就不斷導致促轉委員會本身已經終結的促轉委員會本身恐怕就是傷害促進轉型正義最嚴重的一個機構"},{"start":1272.762,"end":1288.307,"text":"那在支持促進轉型正義這樣的理念下我們納稅人的錢到底怎麼樣具體的事件在各位計畫當中那恐怕也是立法院應該要認真"},{"start":1290.536,"end":1315.439,"text":"來加以審查鑑度的事實上我想這個是第一個基本的原則那第二個是因為也是剛好昨天介紹完了以後那陳一正委員所提的一些問題逐漸的讓我們有機會看到更細的資料那看完了資料以後我想"},{"start":1316.42,"end":1333.985,"text":"還是希望能夠藉由這個協商的時候行政部門既然都來了能夠請他們稍微說明一下要不然有的時候我看這個實際執行的狀況跟我們坐在這邊審預算到底有什麼積極的意義兩者之間的連結"},{"start":1337.286,"end":1360.091,"text":"有的時候會讓人產生困惑所以才想要利用這個機會稍微詢問一下因為就在法務部法務部我們應該是昨天晚上還是今天早上拿來的他本來的部會的預算是386萬"},{"start":1363.58,"end":1372.585,"text":"我們現在看到他預估的執行數到年底已經到了834萬那我的第一個問題是本來編的預算是386萬那現在實際執行完的就已經超過這個數額到年底"},{"start":1386.477,"end":1407.967,"text":"預估要八百三十四萬預估的執行率是百分之兩百一十五點六九請問這個多的錢是從什麼地方來這個是我的第一個問題第二個問題也想要請教一下我們的主計長就是"},{"start":1410.512,"end":1437.771,"text":"如果這樣子做是沒有問題的不管是你要用流用還是用運資那我們一開始在審這個預算在劃定這個預算額數的時候就到底有什麼意義啊就有什麼部門、什麼計畫、寫多少錢是一回事嘛我最後執行的時候那個不是差百分之十、百分之二十"},{"start":1438.872,"end":1466.992,"text":"那是差了百分之兩百多我看了這個數字以後我就一直在思考我們很仔細的去針對每個計畫案的內容跟數字來進行討論或者是來進行預算的監督到底是在做什麼事情就這個部分是不是可以先請教一下法務部跟足機長請他們稍微說明一下讓大家可以理解"},{"start":1469.487,"end":1470.908,"text":"主席長,現在黃國昌總召提出一個問題,請您答覆,請說明。"},{"start":1490.464,"end":1517.103,"text":"這個部分我們本來是同計劃就沒有所謂的雲之流用的一個問題那當初這個部分就是因為是在同計劃裡面那然後後來又因為有法令修正通過所以有一些項目必須要執行那所以這個部分它是在同計劃裡面的項目裡面來做執行並沒有所謂的用途別的流用的問題所以這個部分我們就沒有涉及到流用的一個問題以上補充"},{"start":1520.81,"end":1532.279,"text":"黃總統請繼續再進一步請教一下我們的主席長您所講的統計化指的是最上位的那個計畫嗎?那那個最上位的計畫的名稱是什麼?"},{"start":1533.89,"end":1562.57,"text":"所以你就是說在促進轉型正義的這個計畫裡雖然我們一開始針對各個部會要執行的工作進行了分配但是一旦這個預算過了以後不管過的金額是多少各個部會到底最後要執行多少其實都沒有關係因為都是在同一個計畫向下嘛"},{"start":1563.274,"end":1563.294,"text":"一億……"},{"start":1589.386,"end":1615.611,"text":"一月四千九那所謂的管理費裡面變了多少錢不是不是管理會是說管理委員會剛剛你不是說管理費嗎管理委員會它會經過管理委員會的審查是但是所謂管理委員會的審查也是行政機關內部嗎是那跟我現在在在意的是立法機關的監督恐怕是兩個不同層次的事情嗎是"},{"start":1618.047,"end":1635.915,"text":"所以你的意思是在這個一億四千多萬裡面經過行政機關內部自己所設的管理委員會各個部會裡面他的錢要怎麼花要怎麼支應只要是在一個這麼大的計畫範圍當中其實都可以用"},{"start":1637.428,"end":1658.227,"text":"對,他一般如果說他這個部分沒有涉及到用途別的流用是你面內沒有沒有先停一下啦就是我們現在在討論問題其實沒這麼複雜我一開始請教你的時候你已經說得很清楚了在同一個計畫下沒有所謂流用也沒有所謂雲汁的問題嘛那因此"},{"start":1659.88,"end":1682.375,"text":"我剛剛請教的這個大的計畫就是促進轉型爭議的這個計畫這個計畫有1億4千多萬嘛所以按照你剛剛的說明跟定義這個都是在同一個計畫向下沒有雲芝的問題沒有流用的問題唯一的問題就是在你們行政部門內部設一個管理委員會然後那個管理委員會"},{"start":1683.476,"end":1692.192,"text":"可以決定這個錢要怎麼分配到哪個部會用在什麼用途用多少錢我這樣的理解應該是正確的嘛"},{"start":1692.674,"end":1713.925,"text":"他們要提計畫給委員會來審查,他委員會審查,或者是說哪一個單位他執行有一個剩餘,那這個部分就會由移到哪一個部會再來增加執行是這樣,所以這個部分就會透過委員會來做一個運作。對啦,當然就如同我剛所說的嘛,你所講的委員會也還是在你們行政部門內部的委員會嗎?"},{"start":1716.368,"end":1727.623,"text":"跟我在這邊所關心的是立法部門監督的問題是兩個不同層次的事情嗎?因為這個事情講清楚我覺得會比較好所以比較好也讓我們"},{"start":1728.683,"end":1744.327,"text":"立委就很清楚的知道我們立法院在這邊審預算的時候其實沒有必要看一個計畫下面裡面個別細項的東西因為那些細項的東西其實毫無意義從國會監督的角度來講因為過了以後"},{"start":1747.233,"end":1769.034,"text":"到行政部門內部,要用到哪個計畫,透過你們的分配機制、管理機制,要怎麼樣分配,這個都是行政部門自己可以決定的是嗎?因為它還是同一個計畫,它是沒有特別的事實。您講過的話就不用再複述了。所以對我們來講,重要的只有當初那個計畫,那個最高的那個計畫裡面變多少錢。"},{"start":1770.776,"end":1771.196,"text":"我這樣的理解應該沒有錯誤嗎?是。"},{"start":1800.161,"end":1825.645,"text":"接下來兩位委員發言,吳思耀委員跟一個陳一貞委員,但是我要容我提醒一下,這個本案呢,我們就已經送院會了。那如果沒有其他議題,好。那吳思耀幹事長。因為我剛剛本來要爭取發言也是,因為剛剛院長一開始對本案已經才是要送院會了,所以我本來也不想再發言,但是我覺得剛剛黃總召的釐清,那我也再來補充來做一下釐清跟說明看,"},{"start":1826.352,"end":1851.335,"text":"主席講對於我們的理解因為讓大家可以更了解促轉基金怎麼使用所以促轉基金過去是促轉會那因為促轉會退場之後就由國發會來接手所以促轉會呢針對促進轉型正義基金他組成了管理委員會也就是如同我們其他政府部門設定的基金一樣都會有管理委員會然後呢基金的支用"},{"start":1851.795,"end":1871.366,"text":"也會有促轉基金的收支保管運用辦法,類似這樣的運作機制。而剛剛黃國昌委員所垂詢的事情都可以在行政院主管促轉基金的附屬單位預算這一本的第18頁可以清楚的看到。也就是今年度呢,113年度編列了1億4973萬。"},{"start":1874.528,"end":1903.13,"text":"那這筆費用呢是包括有業務宣傳費有推展費以及最大項的1.4億是用在捐助補助及獎助那捐助補助及獎助用在哪裡呢它的致用是遊戲規則是這樣的是補助行政院所屬的中央二級機關來辦理跟轉型正義有關的政策研議執行研究及教育推廣換言之各個部會"},{"start":1903.931,"end":1931.665,"text":"可以依這個計劃的主題去提請計劃然後來獲得這個管理委員會的審查如果獲得合可之後就依據促轉基金的收支保管運用辦法來支用所以以113年度來講內政部有來申請教育部法務部衛福部文化部原民會國發會都有相關的申請案"},{"start":1933.065,"end":1945.77,"text":"經過基金管理委員會的審查認為這個計劃是跟這個基金的主體計劃是相符所以就予以核准之用那今天立委在這裡針對決算就是在行使我們的監督權針對每個部會"},{"start":1949.631,"end":1960.119,"text":"一、規則來申請的經費有沒有用的到位。所以這是我們今天在這裡討論這個預算。等一下啦,院長。好啦好啦,不要亂講。所以就是這樣子的,大概就是剛剛主席長您說的這個部分。那這個案子我們剛剛回到民進黨團就是有疑義就用會處理。但是該釐清的就釐清,謝謝。好,謝謝。請陳院長委員,請控制時間,謝謝。會,我很快喔。因為這個已經保留我針對昨天問的問題要請他提供的資料講清楚,因為剛剛我在這個"},{"start":1978.593,"end":1992.219,"text":"一場前面接受那個聽到那個吳兆瑤委員吳思瑤委員吳兆瑤委員吳思瑤委員講說這個陳一貞是不理性的立委所以我一定要好好的理性來把這個推出來這個問題好好的理性的問一下"},{"start":1994.94,"end":2014.467,"text":"昨天我們在這邊的時候國發會我看他原來給我的表裡頭有一個就沒有執行的還有應該付的錢裡頭有一筆是法律費用嘛就律師的費用是七萬五千元嘛那當然我想昨天因為很匆忙你們沒有辦法完全的提供但是在你們今天所提供的這個所有資料裡頭在法務部的資料裡頭我也沒有看到相關的有關律師的費用沒有列在這個計畫裡頭"},{"start":2015.828,"end":2016.268,"text":"我舉一個例子來講,像剛剛這個,不要再講吳兆瑤,吳思瑤"},{"start":2043.349,"end":2068.607,"text":"這個根據這個因為他剛剛有說那個按照那個計劃嘛那我也看到了你們的這個出境準行正義基金計劃申請及管考作業要點裡頭在第十條裡頭第十個要點裡頭有說如果這個執行進度落後於百分之十應就落後事項提出說明及因應對策這個是你們的計劃嘛你們的說明嘛那我明白就看到在這個裡頭有一個"},{"start":2070.248,"end":2082.474,"text":"你看,內政部的部分,就已經到目前為止,照你們提供的表格是執行56.13,這不是入座百分之十啊,這遠遠落後百分之三十以上啊,二、三十趴的落後。那是不是有請這些相關單位提出這個計畫報告呢,或者是,這個我想也要請你們提供資料給我們來做這個審酌啦齁。"},{"start":2089.298,"end":2099.605,"text":"另外一個,那既然這些委員會啊,他是審查通過的,審查通過的這些計畫裡頭,你們可以這樣挪用的話,我不知道這些委員會的存在的意在還是說他們的,他們是不是因為他們不夠權威喔,他們審查過的計畫,被下面執行人覺得說你們的計畫根本就不應該這個一百萬這個兩百萬,應該就這個一千萬這個十萬。"},{"start":2109.111,"end":2130.528,"text":"所以我請你提供這個所謂審查委員會的名單給我們是不是為什麼他們如此的被蔑視了就以上這三點就是這個計劃因為你們提供資料不實昨天告訴我說還有一點最後一點最重要的因為這跟金門地區有關係昨天在這裡現場是告訴我說金門馬祖政治暴力創傷療癒需求工作模式探究"},{"start":2131.649,"end":2153.226,"text":"昨天在這裡明明白白會議紀錄有告訴我說我說這計畫是多少錢他們說五十萬你們告訴我是五十萬今天給我資料是兩百一十三萬所以我們沒有通過國會執行法你們在這裡說謊我們都沒有辦法罰你們是多少就多少這個要照實說所以我以上所提的這幾點請列入會議紀錄請他們會後提供資料過來審查委員會的委員有沒有落後有沒有執行這個"},{"start":2154.787,"end":2170.638,"text":"好 大家都是在 同樣事情是在講 但是剛才有一點齁 審查委員的名單 行政部門的所有審查委員的名單都要氣勢白話的為什麼 你怕公布這些名單嗎沒有 所有的都是 審查委員都氣勢白話氣勢白話 氣勢白話"},{"start":2177.577,"end":2191.192,"text":"什麼叫去識別化我不用提供他們的個人資料啊我只需要名單說哪些人是這些人可以審查委員會你這裡頭是不是因為你們在裡面養人啊還是怎麼樣你看原住民委員會諮詢名單是去識別化的嗎欸這件事有沒有領錢啊有領國家的錢嗎"},{"start":2194.588,"end":2217.317,"text":"委員長,我一個程序問題,因為你主持會議嘛,我覺得每一個委員在發言的時候基本的禮貌要有,那在稱呼別的委員的時候用這樣的不禮貌...我現場道歉,他叫吳思瑤不是吳兆瑤,不好意思,說錯了。這是故意的嘛,這是一個故意的行為,所以我覺得..."},{"start":2219.87,"end":2230.697,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝蔡宜瑜書記長。謝謝。好,謝謝。那,謝謝。剛才陳議員所提的所有的所取的資料,麻煩請國發會的劉祖偉這邊準備,請送陳議員的委員這邊來參考,好嗎?好,請劉祖偉。好,我們會準備。"},{"start":2239.281,"end":2259.813,"text":"那非常感謝劉主委、國安會請主委跟所有的列席國安會官員就請離席,好嗎?謝謝大家。我們接下來進入第九十一案、九十二案、九十三案、九十四案。我們這四個案,現在張其凱委員所提檢列,九十一檢列兩議員。張其凱委員在現場請發言。"},{"start":2263.906,"end":2286.939,"text":"這個案子是臺灣民怨最深、人民最生氣的案子。而且到目前為止,連審計部都不願意核銷。這筆錢在目前連審計部都沒有完成核銷的這個程序。所以我一共提了四個案子,跟這個有關,都是進口雞蛋,"},{"start":2288.027,"end":2313.653,"text":"出了問題,超失了問題。第一個我要求檢列兩議是因為他用了農業金庫發展基金的錢可是農業金庫發展基金他的目的是為了造福民眾福祉跟農業發展請問進口雞蛋有造福到我們國內的農民嗎?有發展農業發展嗎?到現在每天不是切蛋就是蛋不過還在惡性循環當中第二個"},{"start":2315.832,"end":2332.201,"text":"監察院在113年的8月30號發布的調查報告,他提到因為農業部跟中央續產會疏於掌握民間企業自行進口的數量,也沒有切實掌握國內雞蛋產量已經慢慢回穩,導致"},{"start":2333.612,"end":2359.125,"text":"同年的七月份就出現了庫存超過了五十五萬顆剩下的蛋到同一年的九月二十七號預期的雞蛋高達五千四百二十九萬顆導致我們人民民脂民膏損失了監察院算出來的損失費用高達五億兩千九百九十二萬元監察院明確講這個有缺失"},{"start":2361.127,"end":2367.937,"text":"所以我要求檢列一億五千萬。第三個案子是產銷出的問題。監察院調查報告的意見九裡面講到說"},{"start":2373.919,"end":2393.492,"text":"因為農業部輸於跟衛福部共同去延長進口雞蛋洗血的這個日期沒有去積極輔導業者你洗蛋之後有效日期的計算方式也就是說監察院對於有效日期的保存期限是有相當餘力的這也是為什麼在去年我們吃到了一些壞蛋"},{"start":2394.646,"end":2415.796,"text":"買到的一些壞蛋,所以要求針對這個項目減類一千萬。另外一個是洗產地的這個問題。今天產業報告明確說,農業部委託的雞蛋,洗鹹這個業者在進口雞蛋以後,把產地不是寫國外的產地,不是巴西也不是土耳其,直接標示成台灣。"},{"start":2417.062,"end":2434.468,"text":"而且加工業者把超過34萬公斤的核彈加工以後變成液彈以後,產地標示的也是臺灣,這所謂的棲產地。所以我要求這個項目檢列一千萬。所以我提出了四筆,從它的設置目的違反了"},{"start":2435.578,"end":2436.379,"text":"蔣家俊委員發言蔡易瑜蘇議長請準備"},{"start":2462.006,"end":2486.96,"text":"基本上國民黨黨團這裡是支持民眾黨黨團就是針對這個農業發展基金使用的細節應該要能夠增進農民福利這是非常重要的因為這個雞蛋進口案已經是一個弊案了那也顯示出這個農業基金使用的腐爛可以說是沒有任何的規範這一點我覺得"},{"start":2489.702,"end":2498.708,"text":"等下可能農業部也要好好解釋一下就是說為什麼這個農業發展基金本來就是應該要促進農民福利跟農業發展為什麼會拿來補貼進口雞蛋呢這對於農民的福利跟農業發展"},{"start":2506.093,"end":2530.194,"text":"有什麼任何的幫助嗎那如果這個基金可以這樣子腐爛的使用的話那是不是侵佔了農民真正的需求農民真正的需求沒有受到照顧而這一筆基金拿去用了做了其他的作為為什麼農業部可以這樣子做所以呢就是民眾黨提出的包括檢列包括說"},{"start":2531.855,"end":2534.797,"text":"兩億或者是一億五當然我們不希望說影響到這個實際的照顧農民的需求但我覺得可能在刪減部分之外也應該要予以凍結請農業部提出"},{"start":2546.363,"end":2570.52,"text":"就是實際這筆基金運用的規範跟他的這個要符合他設置的這個用途跟他的目的否則呢如果假設他使用的都跟他的用途跟設置的目的不符的話那對農民也是一種損失啊那這筆農業發展基金等於是愛怎麼用怎麼用我覺得這對農民是非常的不公平謝謝"},{"start":2572.442,"end":2577.667,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員發言。蔡議員、蘇理長發言完畢就請陳部長回答好嗎?請蔡蘇理長。"},{"start":2579.025,"end":2606.395,"text":"好 謝謝主席那這一筆是農業發展基金而且它是用在產銷調節基本上產銷調節對於農民是非常的重要因為我們知道說現在雖然已經12月了但是12月一樣會有很多農產品事實上會出來包括番茄類包括說我們知道的玉米甚至是其他在水產品的部分包括"},{"start":2607.102,"end":2625.809,"text":"三百億事實上現在都陸續要出來那目前三百億在漁民來說也確實是價格都已經低了所以我認為說整個在產銷調節的時候他面對的是千百種的農產品的品項那尤其最近今年颱風又特別多"},{"start":2626.863,"end":2640.09,"text":"臺豐多我們知道對於這些蔬菜類就會有很大價格的波動所以我們是具體建議如果民眾黨的提案就是針對111跟112年當那兩年雞蛋的一個狀況那那個時候主要是因為雞蛋狀況是因為禽流感造成缺蛋所以有緊急進口的必要當然後來有發生一些程序上的一些問題"},{"start":2656.394,"end":2659.018,"text":"民眾黨想要檢討這件事我們也不反對檢討這件事情但是我們處理在113年的產銷調節的預算"},{"start":2666.96,"end":2683.144,"text":"那感覺上就變得說是針對農業部然後要去特別要去處罰他事實上他們應該要接受調查應該要接受當時事件這個辦理不妥的地方要受到處罰結果你現在去砍113年的預算那從我剛剛講的今年紅胎就特別多那看起來今年的"},{"start":2689.125,"end":2705.994,"text":"產消調節會用的預算會比較多,尤其是就我了解目前已經用了將近3.5億,但年底一定還會繼續要再使用一些剛才說的一些品項。所以我是覺得如果真的要刪,那就著刪就好。"},{"start":2707.237,"end":2725.091,"text":"昨三就好,看五百萬或一千萬,昨三一樣達到他們的效果,因為一樣是要檢討一一一一二年度所發生的情況。而且事實上這個議題也講了好久,從林北好友的事件到現在,大家都一直深度的在討論"},{"start":2726.292,"end":2726.872,"text":"三、繼續研商"},{"start":2752.302,"end":2759.354,"text":"陳部長麻煩一下,針對剛才三位委員所提的,請您答覆之外,也要請跟大家報告一下目前執行情況,謝謝。"},{"start":2761.44,"end":2786.926,"text":"院長還有各位委員那以下那個針對那個民進黨民眾黨那個張祺凱委員所提的這些疑問還有剛才委員的疑問我做幾個說明第一個說明就是在農發基金的向下的整項調節它最主要的目的就是在穩定我們的國內的這些這些重要的農產品的一個價格的一個穩定跟量的一個穩定那每一年我們針對包括颱風"},{"start":2789.927,"end":2805.12,"text":"臺風來的時候的一些產銷的一些一些調節的狀況然後也針對一些當時被國內被中國暫時停止以後這些農產品造成一些國內所以我們針對內銷外銷還有加工的部分都是用這條經費來處理"},{"start":2807.122,"end":2822.502,"text":"那目前為止就是我們在這個基金這個項目裡面大概是5.01億編列5.01億雖然說目前到11月底的時候它的執行率已經達到68但是因為計劃已經核定了所以到年底的時候"},{"start":2824.103,"end":2850.591,"text":"預計應該會全部用完甚至可能還會不夠那因為後續還有很多災後的一些還在處理的過程特別是這次這三個颱風以後就還在處理的部分我們還在做積極的輔導所以這個部分是第一個部分要說明的第二個部分就是剛才張委員所提到的部分有關於那個雞蛋的部分我想幾個說明第一個部分就是"},{"start":2851.511,"end":2875.508,"text":"整個的進口雞蛋當初用這筆經費那是當時那時候國內的雞蛋產能不足所以我們從國外進口那國外進口的時候才有機會讓國內的蛋雞產業做復養的動作所以基本上我想這整個還是符合基金的用途處於農業發展而且這些經費也經過特收基金管理委員會同意我們來使用"},{"start":2877.549,"end":2901.439,"text":"那第二個部分有關於這個過期單的部分那我們當初這個標示那個過期單本身因為有效期限是根據你的次程而去決定的那國內的習慣就是標誌是一個月的部分然後每一個進口雞蛋都有它的有效日期我們送到席宣場都有講這個歷次委員會我都有跟他說明"},{"start":2902.459,"end":2926.755,"text":"另外一個議題就是說有關於108年的標示的部分那108年沒有標示的問題因為108年本身我們是進口雞蛋以後就是跟國內的雞蛋用換的方式到加工廠去做一些蛋糕烹調類的這些原料那這個部分已經經過實質轉型就沒有所謂的產地的標示的一個問題那以下簡單說明"},{"start":2930.327,"end":2934.691,"text":"張啟凱委員,提醒您,剛才用了68%,預計年底可能會...我看了農業部目前基金執行率是66%"},{"start":2945.399,"end":2962.467,"text":"包括有一筆一百一十二年度過期忌憚的這個再利用的處理計畫,花了四千多萬。這個就是把它當成堆肥啦。就是剛我在講的,連監察都認為是有問題,浪費那麼多的民脂民膏。所以今天我會非常堅持,這四筆刪除的錢,"},{"start":2963.467,"end":2991.127,"text":"我會非常堅持。而且我抱歉抱歉我會要求一個最重要的最重要的農務部現在在做一個事情你現在的決算是連審計部都不核准你要怎麼去處理這個事情你搬了人民的搬了人民納稅錢去所以第一個你要把責任追清楚你要把該追的錢要去追回來你對人民才有交代啊要不然立法院怎麼同意你這筆錢第二個你在講說這個產銷很重要你目前已經用了66%嘛對不對我剛剛看了"},{"start":2993.248,"end":2995.25,"text":"你這個農糧產品的,農糧產品有已經花了67%,漁產品小劑大概也花了52%,"},{"start":3002.585,"end":3027.415,"text":"　　　　"},{"start":3027.577,"end":3037.503,"text":"那有什麼事?這麼嚴重的大會怎麼沒命綱?我們先說到底啊。好,謝謝。教練們請,我們就針對月美昨天,然後吳世耀幹事長請準備。基本上我們是同意民眾黨黨團所要求的說一定要能夠講清楚說明白這一筆費用到底是不是花的不正確,因為針對這個"},{"start":3055.875,"end":3060.258,"text":"檢察院在113年8月30日公布說,農業部進口雞蛋的專案會實際掌握民間企業自行進口的數量,而且也沒有掌握國內雞蛋產量回穩的情況,所以導致7月"},{"start":3075.129,"end":3075.169,"text":"　︎國民黨團提議　︎"},{"start":3102.123,"end":3124.174,"text":"剛才主委有講說他們有處理的流程包括說他們相關的規範都有做出優化都有做出調整那可不可以也提供說到底你們對於這些相關的規範這個基金使用的規範你們到底做出了什麼樣的調整也應該提供給大家知道因為包括蔡議員講的沒錯我們都是來自農業界我們應該為農民把關這些要調節產銷的"},{"start":3131.277,"end":3132.158,"text":"我必須要補充一下這當然是已經過去了但是我們"},{"start":3150.513,"end":3173.603,"text":"為什麼要這麼的認真檢討這件事情就是希望這樣的事情不要再發生不要再發生希望說這個過去就過去了以後不要再發生一樣的事情可是你下次再來一個什麼樣子的弊案我們也不知道嘛好不好謝謝謝謝張家俊委員發言那請吳世耀委幹事長發言完畢我就要進行處理"},{"start":3175.862,"end":3186.926,"text":"這個案子編列的預算數是5.01億那民眾黨這邊提的案子總共有四個案子那加總起來要刪減的金額是3.7億換言之把整個農業發展基金"},{"start":3193.004,"end":3217.598,"text":"用於這個產銷調節的向下是削減了73%。我想這樣一個數字到年底到11月應當已經支用了3.4億左右我的資料是這樣那這整筆來辦理產銷調節計劃的這個基金呢我想我非常同意委員們來發針對該監督的事項來努力監督"},{"start":3222.273,"end":3244.579,"text":"民眾黨委員對於這個雞蛋的事件對於農業部提出來的很多提醒農業部未來都要列為精進的作為那相關是不是有弊司法也在查監察院也在調查那回到預算行政部門的部分我想這個刪減的比例實在是高達73%那這一筆錢都是用在農民身上"},{"start":3248.976,"end":3252.141,"text":"那所有的從各類的農糧產品到這個漁產品到這個蓄產品"},{"start":3259.656,"end":3268.039,"text":"不一而足整個面對氣候的狀況臨時突發的狀況或是國際的局勢會衝擊農民生計的其實我剛講農糧產品、漁產品、蓄產品數十項那在野黨的委員針對蛋的執行這一項絕對可以監督提出異議沒有問題"},{"start":3282.236,"end":3311.075,"text":"只是砍了為了蛋這一項然後73%的刪減額度實在是在比例原則上是真的要在審酌那剛剛我如果沒有聽錯剛剛部長齊凱委員有提到針對那個蛋的部分後來因為那個蛋然後去填這個堆肥嘛是大概4000多萬嘛那如果說對於這個執行就他很直接就是那個蛋產生的"},{"start":3312.336,"end":3314.999,"text":"一、繼續研商一、繼續研商一、繼續研商"},{"start":3332.881,"end":3352.247,"text":"都比現在被砍掉3.7億,這些都是農民所需要的。紅布拉魚、沙巴魚、黑鮪魚、鬼頭刀、我們的洋蔥、鳳梨、甘藍、芒果、鳳梨釋迦、秋刀魚,這些東西、柑橘,我自己在北投也是有農產的,我們山上也有湯柑。"},{"start":3354.068,"end":3366.034,"text":"那這些是不是太傷及無辜了所以如果針對蛋的部分我具體聽到的項目就是那個四千萬我聽到不曉得合不合宜真的要著山對於刪減的這個額度實在太過當了"},{"start":3369.264,"end":3390.299,"text":"在這裡為我們廣大的農民朋友,他們對於產銷的調節,獲得基金的益助跟協助,這是大有必要。院長也對於農產非常的了解,您也知道農民所需。所以這個部分是不是請民眾黨的委員,勞煩在刪減的額度上再做斟酌好嗎?"},{"start":3393.09,"end":3410.175,"text":"張其凱委員,剛才吳世堯委員所提的一個建議就是說,您列了這個3.3億7千萬,3.7億,那他現在佔73%,他希望能不能3.4千萬左右,請問你同意不同意這樣子一個?"},{"start":3413.336,"end":3425.345,"text":"剛剛總召說至少是一億,你們的施咬才提了四千。我跟你講現在最重要的是人民的氣沒有消,這目前還是民怨很高的一個案子。我建議這樣子,這個案子照我簡略的先送到院會去,讓農業部去處理我剛剛回應民眾的民怨。講清楚第一個,到底審計部的這個錢沒有核銷你要怎麼去處理,因為你要追錢追責任嘛。"},{"start":3439.935,"end":3467.837,"text":"跟民眾交代清楚,再來決定到底是要檢列一例還是時間一律。因為理由都講得非常多,謝謝你。那我們現在蔡宇就針對同意不同意好不好。稍微等一下,請蔡宇,署長。我先講一下,就是說齁,因為他現在已經有執行,也執行了68了,然後如果照這樣的一個砍下去的話,會變成說之前執行了他就"},{"start":3468.582,"end":3491.08,"text":"對阿他都不夠所以說是不是先確定一件事情如果要進入表決然後要像這個張其凱所說的砍這麼多那應該要砍在農業發展基金而不要砍在產銷調節計畫裡面因為這個產銷調節計畫裡面已經有使用的那你現在把它砍了它現在沒有辦法去找這個錢嘛"},{"start":3492.854,"end":3503.369,"text":"阿再來第二項啦好第二項就是說事實上大家去思考因為像我們昨天在處理國發會他的出國的旅費那國發會後來因為要被砍一百九十萬"},{"start":3503.976,"end":3523.583,"text":"所以他們自己也去調整說他們原本要規劃要去出國去做他就取消了所以我們現在如果砍了這些錢萬一有什麼農產品事實上需要被執行要去做產銷調節的那農委會因為預算被砍了最後他就減少協助農民的力道"},{"start":3524.443,"end":3524.463,"text":"現在..."},{"start":3552.459,"end":3554.705,"text":"誰要問接受不接受就好了其他就請大家"},{"start":3558.905,"end":3581.102,"text":"控制一下發言的範圍。好,請柯總說。我講比較,講我第一份講,但是我很聽了大家講話,我知道大家要監督,監督可以。有問題移送法辦,這個都經常要調查。但我今天要針對這個事情要如何解決,我剛才有跟當區議員講說,今晚總統這個是五億啊,總共五億嘛,人家講一句五億。"},{"start":3587.947,"end":3606.46,"text":"人員會今年用的已經超過五億了,都沒搞了。那你把它砍掉,你把它砍掉,砍下草原稅法,最近後面的,後面還沒支出的部分,完全沒有辦法動。所以,而且總共這個是砍了將近百分之七十。"},{"start":3607.3,"end":3633.056,"text":"我剛才跟當時的白頭丟說你要砍多少一億兩億那是一回事但是像蔡議員剛剛講一定要科目自行調整這樣才能夠處理啊那當時的委員說他知道但是先到院會再來處理我們今天又把他處理之後在院會表情有時間大家再處理這些問題你要砍多少我們都尊重但是科目自行調整"},{"start":3634.537,"end":3635.438,"text":"謝謝柯總統請陳俊文請"},{"start":3645.262,"end":3669.556,"text":"當然我們也是非常支持農民,但是農委會重要,我們藉由這個預算的這個監督,讓農委會要意識到說,農民需要的不是只有補助,農民需要還要怎麼跟他們一樣發展的機會,這個才是重點嘛。那既然預算的東西如果是沒有通過你們就先行去用的話,那這種叫做先霸王硬上弓,先生米煮成熟飯以後回頭要來我們來追的嘛,"},{"start":3670.196,"end":3671.457,"text":"我跟他們報告一下,不是只有我最在乎的,人民最在乎的是審計部不核定的"},{"start":3693.467,"end":3693.747,"text":"三、繼續研商"},{"start":3714.215,"end":3733.788,"text":"審計部不同意你們核遣,這你們到底要怎麼解決?第二個,把責任追清楚,把錢追清楚,讓人民的民主民革,把錢追回來。這三個問題先解決,然後到了院會我們再決定說,好,你的執行率有多少?你的執行率,像你目前是66%嘛,對不對?目前是66%嘛,對不對?那到時候你看..."},{"start":3735.469,"end":3762.841,"text":"〇〇〇〇"},{"start":3762.901,"end":3790.694,"text":"那九十一案、九十二案、九十三案、九十四案,我們保留送院會處理。我們補充宣告,昨天處理台南公司第四案、第五案,兩案保留。我們剛才昨天沒有宣告清楚,我們補充宣告。好,謝謝。請農業部,謝謝啊。好,謝謝。我們換下面,教育。"},{"start":3791.735,"end":3793.696,"text":"好好好辛苦勸慰好好好好"},{"start":3881.185,"end":3905.62,"text":"對,院長提醒一下。對,報告院長有一個案子,跟國民黨協調好的那個。對,呃,第二十……二十六。第二十六就是同意改書面報告,這個有私民委員同意的,所以要宣讀一下,謝謝。"},{"start":3908.51,"end":3909.611,"text":"第一個就有關於我先處理"},{"start":3939.056,"end":3943.881,"text":"委員長你現在處理34嗎?因為現在剩下體育署的應該就剩下我們黨團提的34跟40嗎?應該沒有其他的案子嗎?"},{"start":3962.488,"end":3977.545,"text":"不好意思,因為那個體育署的部分只剩下我們台灣民眾黨黨團的三十四跟四十嘛。三十四跟四十這兩案我想如果院長同意的話,我們一併處理,速度會比較快一點。"},{"start":3981.53,"end":3988.853,"text":"我本來是想要讓部長跟署長早一點離開這個地方不過沒有關係我尊重院長的意識的沒有問題絕對尊重院長的意識主持第一個是三月四案你們前兩年就編的那個"},{"start":4009.83,"end":4011.03,"text":"所以你們到年底要執行多少?"},{"start":4037.745,"end":4058.317,"text":"就講具體的數字啦,這樣比較跨一點啦你現在本來是4555萬嘛那你們預計到年底要執行多少?因為你們前兩年的預算跟決算,預算跟決算落差都蠻大的嘛所以你們到今年年底要執行到多少?跟委員報告大概3500萬3500萬,那我們這樣直接減1000萬好不好?"},{"start":4062.881,"end":4085.774,"text":"你同意,這個案子就OK啦!政府長,那個現在黃國昌總召正式提出來檢列百分之一千,改為檢列一千萬。好,就一部同意接受。我們第三十四案,我們檢列一千萬,那個國民黨團每一件。好,現在進入四十案。四十案,台灣民眾黨團提出凍結百分之五。那個吼就..."},{"start":4086.714,"end":4105.685,"text":"事實案的部分因為我必須要先說明一下我也要拜託我們教育部的部長還有體育署的署長可能真的要再拜託你們2017年國民體育法的改革我相信那個時候的改革希望我們政府所有的錢"},{"start":4106.886,"end":4121.254,"text":"都用到選手身上這個是我們所有的納稅人大家共同的期待當時我們的前總統蔡英文也清楚的講協會存在的目的就是為了選手"},{"start":4122.662,"end":4145.347,"text":"就是為了選手當這個目的消失或是他的功能被破壞的時候協會沒有任何存在的意義但2017年國民體育法通過了以後這幾年下來我相信部分不肖的協會怎麼樣胡搞瞎搞去濫用體育署"},{"start":4147.088,"end":4170.442,"text":"對協會的補助我相信這些事情我在歷次的質詢當中我在歷次的質詢當中就是都講得非常的清楚了那當然其他各個部會有牽涉到了包括審計部等等他們也下去做了審計報告體育署你們說要找專業的會計師來進行查核該給的時間我也給你們了"},{"start":4175.124,"end":4203.109,"text":"只不過說我追了半天以後你們會計師的查核報告還是只有給我摘要沒有給我全部我第一個就是說事實案的這個部分因為這個沒有經過協會直接到小學所以事實案的部分我同意直接改你們給我書面報告就好了但是我要拜託教育部跟體育署善意不是單方面的"},{"start":4204.039,"end":4215.932,"text":"善意不是單方面。事實上,我同意你們改的,提書面報告給我就好,我也不會動,但你們該給我的東西要給我,包括會計師的查核報告,可以承諾嗎?"},{"start":4217.646,"end":4220.347,"text":"跟委員報告,確實我們現在會計師已經完成初步報告跟建議,那我們體育署會針對查核的事實裡面再請這個協會做一個說明,我們在整個的經會我們就會扣除,所以以目前來講已經"},{"start":4234.833,"end":4250.623,"text":"提議所已經要求這個迷你足球協會繳回補助款一百零三萬另外我們接著馬上要做說除了這個請協會在尼清會會計師所查核的以外我們要根據這個來追繳這個我們當然也會判斷做最後的決議追繳"},{"start":4255.586,"end":4269.058,"text":"不合規的這個補助款同時停止對那個協會補助五年以我目前的法令最高的一個懲罰就是五年內都不宜補助我們現在目前大概這個部分我是跟委員做這樣的一個"},{"start":4271.46,"end":4272.861,"text":"我已經釋出很大的善意,所以我就跟你說這個案子。"},{"start":4293.976,"end":4319.483,"text":"我就不會堅持了,我只要你們給我書面報告,然後該給我的查核報告給我,這樣就好了。這樣部長可以同意嗎?這個應該很簡單嗎?我說得蠻清楚的吧?競表同意,謝謝委員。OK,那事實案呢,我們就改組決議提書面報告,請問各黨團有意見嗎?沒意見,好,我們事實案就這樣子處理。謝謝教育部正部長,各位列席官員,謝謝。謝謝主席,謝謝各位委員,謝謝。"},{"start":4327.657,"end":4328.844,"text":"好,我們接下來交通。"},{"start":4367.657,"end":4383.949,"text":"好謝謝我們各位黨團幹部我們現在保留案交通共識案非營業基金第一案是觀光發展基金保留案號第25號"},{"start":4388.871,"end":4403.366,"text":"目前我們現在列席的是我們歡迎交通部陳部長,好,熱情歡迎。還有觀光署的周署長,歡迎您。國家通訊傳播委員會,好,現在好,在旁邊,好,沒關係,我們現在交通部,好,好,請。"},{"start":4406.149,"end":4426.311,"text":"抱歉抱歉馬上要介入交通部門因為剛剛那個運發基金那謝謝大家很快速的然後來通過民眾黨的議案也謝謝民眾黨的委員的相關的協助那我有一個那個確認一下因為當初在教育委員會的時候有把整個運發基金動了一百萬"},{"start":4427.532,"end":4429.453,"text":"請教育部請求棉雨凍結,不曉得有沒有可能。"},{"start":4445.629,"end":4445.749,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提議簡列兩千萬"},{"start":4473.396,"end":4495.614,"text":"第一個我要再次的跟我們的交通部還有觀光署說在觀光發展基金裡面基本上最重要的用途就是要促進我們國內的觀光產業"},{"start":4499.184,"end":4522.471,"text":"在促進國內觀光產業的時候我們在有限的資源上要用在刀口要用在刀口你們用這個基金辦了很多的活動我有的時候如果我有空我的習慣是我不會去參加那種活動上去拿麥克風講話沒有意義我的習慣是"},{"start":4527.697,"end":4555.621,"text":"我要不然自己去我要不然派人去他們會從頭到尾把你們那個活動舉辦實際的狀況全部都記錄下來帶回來給我看因為我覺得這才是一個監督最有效的方式那我必須要重申我對你們在辦一些活動的時候你們辦活動的KPI真的真的"},{"start":4557.236,"end":4579.389,"text":"要好好地評估,好好地使用。我也可以打開天窗說兩句話,是這個案子我本來非常非常的堅持。但是我們台灣民眾黨黨團前委員陳萬惠,她覺得東北部那邊的觀光,她希望,她幫你們開口啦。"},{"start":4580.57,"end":4599.263,"text":"希望說給觀光署機會以後做得好一點所以這個案子我不會堅持請你們提書面資料我相信這個善意釋放得很足夠了我希望明年在執行這個基金預算的時候不要再發生相同的狀況以上"},{"start":4602.544,"end":4624.984,"text":"黃國昌總召所提的第二十五案改組決議改題書面報告請問交通部跟廣東署各黨團可以接受二十五案就這樣改組決議題書面報告謝謝交通部陳部長各位列席官員接下來NCC共九個案"},{"start":4629.775,"end":4646.607,"text":"我們寫NCC代理的陳主委請坐好,熱情歡迎您我們現在第39案基金用途國民黨團陳金威委員提議凍結20%請國民黨團提出說明請張志倫委員請"},{"start":4655.42,"end":4680.942,"text":"好謝謝主席我想這個通訊傳播監督管理基金會是我們全民所重視的因為現在通訊傳播的監督管理主要的目的是來完備電信設施技術法規以及應用的業務所需支出而且我們人民是需要他是要有效來施政的讓人民有感及安心不是來監督人民那考量日前有執政黨的前官員公開表示"},{"start":4681.522,"end":4702.425,"text":"他可以透過基地台來比對的訊號來比對,可以掌握不同的公民活動參與,以及各族群之間包含年齡、人員等各自的差異,引發民眾針對他的各自的隱私權遭到電信業務監控之恐慌。至今還沒有一個"},{"start":4703.146,"end":4727.973,"text":"正式解釋,也沒有化解人民的疑慮。所以我們希望說,我們希望可以見到我們主管機關的NCC國家通訊傳播委員會有進一步的說明,可是現在還沒有任何的說明,所以我們本黨團提議要凍結基金用途20%,而且限期於一個月內向這個本院提交國人參與公民活動,遭電信業"},{"start":4729.393,"end":4737.359,"text":"監控之改善規劃及有關執行作法,說明提出專案報告,並經同意時得動之。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":4752.411,"end":4773.867,"text":"這條案我們先前已經啟動行政調查,也找三家電信業者以及四方電訊來查,也會同第三方的專家支撤會那邊做行政調查,並沒有談到任何為師。先前在交通委員會的時候也有做過一些報告,將書面報告提供給交通委員會的委員。"},{"start":4774.668,"end":4796.705,"text":"那針對後續的經濟的部分我們也針對三家電信業者他們的定型化契約有所調整那要求去識別化的一定要去識別化才可以提供給第三方那另外一點是要經過依法或本人同意才可以做目的外的收集"},{"start":4797.245,"end":4802.367,"text":"第三、必須提供選擇權。第二、請業者修正各自告知聲明事項,包括區識別化技術採用什麼。第二、UP-OUT管道為何。"},{"start":4815.652,"end":4837.584,"text":"那,進一步落實法制化部分,我們也在依各執法授權訂定的各執安全維護辦法裡頭,要求電信業者,你如果要做區識別化的一些應用,你一定要揭露你區識別化的方式、技術。那另外,你還要取得國際或相關的認證,區識別化的認證,像ISO29100或者CMS29100-2。那以上先簡單報告說明。"},{"start":4846.476,"end":4867.522,"text":"好,那你們現在那個主席單位也在,你們現在這個執行的情況可以跟大家報告一下嗎?是,報告院長跟各位委員,我們基金用途全年度預算數5.16億元,那到11月執行3.21億元,那預估12月可以執行1.83億元,全年度可以執行5億477萬元,那這個"},{"start":4872.846,"end":4887.727,"text":"整個用途的部分在交通委員會跟協商已經刪減了680萬元以上報告那各黨團幹部針對這個執行的請問在年底他大概還剩下1000萬左右那請問各黨團幹部能不能表示一下意見"},{"start":4889.019,"end":4890.02,"text":"請問各黨團能不能就這一點來表達意見?"},{"start":4911.377,"end":4916.319,"text":"我的建議就是說因為不能老是用這個理由然後去逃避監督啦那當然他說剩下錢確實也不多啦那我的建議是這樣就是"},{"start":4936.516,"end":4952.699,"text":"那剪裂齁 那剩下四百多萬 但是凍結的部分齁 我的建議是就要調整成十趴那你還是要提個專案報告給我們 讓我們來去做事後檢討你現在是要凍結還是要做專案報告啦還是要做那個報告啦各位 院長講一下好不好 院長"},{"start":4962.993,"end":4977.244,"text":"那還是一樣,我們就是按照我們的原案來做。不是啦,我沒跟你講。院長,要不要召集委員排專報?對,好不好?召集委員。好,請客組長。這個事情是這樣,這個預算處已經用掉了,只剩下一千萬了。"},{"start":4985.61,"end":4997.299,"text":"因為可以把他剩下的部分全部刪掉,已經用掉你再去刪也不可能啦,事情嘛,這要務實一點至於專報以後才可以動之嘛,市民的論一個月內我們立法院都在委員會排這個是有困難的喔另外"},{"start":5010.348,"end":5026.534,"text":"市長委員我可以說明一下這是我們立法院的問題因為我們立法院的預算營業及非營業預算是現在才在審的只要是一開始就審的時候當然是情況不一樣這不是他們賴多的問題是立法院的問題剩下的錢"},{"start":5030.956,"end":5058.489,"text":"所以主席因為對於行政部門最嚴厲的監督就是把他的預算砍掉啦所以我們也都達成同意沒有用完的全部砍掉我覺得對他們來講已經是很嚴厲的處罰啦那是不是就是就是全部砍掉啊如果要凍結的話就是要用凍結就是主決議然後交報告使得動之對那個"},{"start":5060.199,"end":5073.97,"text":"跟各黨團報告一下,現在大概三黨,看台灣民眾黨有沒有寶貴意見?他現在簡列四百萬的話,有沒有意見?沒有,我們基本上是尊重提案黨團的立場,只是說"},{"start":5075.447,"end":5101.761,"text":"我也不曉得該怎麼講欸幫你們把沒有用完的錢刪掉對你們是最嚴厲的處罰幫你們提高執行率還是最嚴厲的處罰這個邏輯我老實講我是聽不懂啦但沒有關係啦我們尊重提案黨團的意見他們要堅持不是啦,我是說尊重他們的意見嘛他們同意的範圍我們慶表同意他們不同意要院會處理就院會處理都可以啦"},{"start":5102.933,"end":5126.152,"text":"那這樣啦,因為我覺得關鍵還是要針對它的整個使用的狀況,我們要,我覺得很難是說今天要用完跟我講說現在剩下400多萬,就當沒事。那我要講的是說什麼,那這樣子,那剩下的凍結啦,我還是要求希望有一個報告,這樣子。就400多萬凍結,剩下還沒用完的凍結。"},{"start":5131.321,"end":5150.582,"text":"提議是凍結剩餘數為致用環避者凍結三個黨團我們凍結四百萬提書面報告第四十案民眾黨黨團提列四十案簡列二分之一兩百四十七萬七千請台灣民眾黨團請表達意見"},{"start":5152.921,"end":5153.481,"text":"陳耀祥帶了一堆人"},{"start":5181.658,"end":5209.527,"text":"跑去歐洲搞了一趟回來花了88萬嘛這是你們給我的啊他跑去捷克嘛說參加什麼網際網路治理論壇嘛只是我看陳耀祥去歐洲一趟回來參加什麼網際網路治理論壇回來也沒有提出什麼親民的你們NCC該做的一堆的事情通通都沒有做跑去國外幹嘛"},{"start":5212.503,"end":5240.79,"text":"我現在具體的講啊,因為省到這邊喔,處理上一屆國會該處理的沒有處理的問題,搞得大家都很無奈啊你們就擺出一袋錢,擺出一副錢都已經花了,那要不然要怎麼樣?沒有啦,啊我在講話你也開始尊重一下,好不好?對不對?不是啊,我們會真的要這樣開下去嗎?你確定要這樣嗎?"},{"start":5245.272,"end":5247.032,"text":"陳主委請表達意見"},{"start":5270.52,"end":5295.475,"text":"我可不可以說明是有兩個不可抗力的因素。第一個,原來我們有一個計畫是IIC是在美國華府開的,後來他們大會臨時改在泰國曼谷,所以那個費用就有落差,這第一個不可抗力因素。第二個不可抗力因素,原來有一個數位人權大會在哥斯大理加開的,它取消延到明年,所以那這兩部分的旅費加起來就數目就很大。"},{"start":5296.355,"end":5316.854,"text":"另外補充,去歐洲,六月份去歐洲EURO DIGITAL NIGHT部分其實有聯絡一些相關英國、法國的一些類似我們的同儕機關,跟他們一些交流也促成我們在十月份取得GOSEN這個線上安全組織的觀察員的身份。以上補充。所以結論減掉234萬,同意不同意?您用得到嗎?"},{"start":5323.718,"end":5348.951,"text":"二百三十四萬是預估剩餘數,那扣除交委會跟協商,交委會已經刪減數八十萬,大概剩餘一百五十萬。那就刪一百五十萬,用不掉就刪掉就好了。那我們這黃國昌總招手提就是刪一百五十萬。那國民黨團?那我們就第四十案,我們刪減一百五十萬。好,下一案。"},{"start":5350.109,"end":5376.509,"text":"四十六案。國民黨團提出凍結十分之一。請國民黨團表達意見。好,謝謝主席齁。我這邊還是想要提說啦,就是說NCC喔,過去一直以來齁,很多的這個,不管是很多的他的做法齁,其實人民不能認同。那當然,因為現在在省113年的預算喔,其實已經花了很多,可是我要想要請教的是說齁,"},{"start":5377.37,"end":5389.335,"text":"那過去一集以來我們的這個通訊傳播監督管理基金到底是還有剩多少錢到底餘額是多少錢因為基金它的概念是一個水庫的概念那當然我們也不是需要說"},{"start":5390.735,"end":5414.697,"text":"當然每一年度都需要說有盈餘啊可是我覺得NCC在管理這個基金有點不當就是說你不能因為說我們還沒有開始審這個基金你就一直花一直花一直花花到最後只剩一點點的我相信在去年度的時候你們也沒有花也沒有執行率那麼高啊也是有一些剩餘啊我是覺得你們113年度的時候真的花的有比較多啦所以這部分要請NCC來改善喔"},{"start":5415.037,"end":5438.234,"text":"那我特別還要提到說就是說我們這個案由是什麼我們認為尤其是很多民眾都有跟我們來回覆他說有惡質的媒體人與這些媒體我們不要講哪家媒體政論節目上烏龍爆料來毀謗無辜女性與前政治人物滾床單的這種事情遭起訴那NCC曾經召開"},{"start":5439.675,"end":5454.669,"text":"這個自律的諮詢委員會然後可是裡面的委員居然說滾床單非負面名詞而且一直延續公佈會議紀錄那NCC一直說媒體自律可是我們認為他是有不同的遇到"},{"start":5455.23,"end":5476.118,"text":"　︎"},{"start":5476.752,"end":5490.786,"text":"麻煩陳主委請直接在線上直接答覆張志倫委員的詢問。這邊的文字描述有點跟事實落差,因為事實上是媒體業者根據衛廣法22條設的自立倫理委員會他們的會議記錄是他們的委員會裡頭的委員發言,不是NCC的。"},{"start":5499.395,"end":5499.575,"text":"現在執行了多少?"},{"start":5499.575,"end":5499.615,"text":"主席長請說"},{"start":5519.877,"end":5520.898,"text":"理解。那接下來請羅智強委員發言。黃國昭總召請準備。羅智強委員你剛舉手了。"},{"start":5548.12,"end":5548.14,"text":"請發言"},{"start":5549.352,"end":5578.478,"text":"因為那個不同的提案委員關切的那個一些問題不太相同所以那因為我們前面已經做了這個凍結然後做那個報告的一個決議嘛那現在我想說還是要把提案委員他們對於為什麼他們要採取凍結的這些理由剛剛那個志永文已經講了就包括說對於所謂的那個惡質媒體人的爆料那NCC在召開的這個治理那個就是公司他們召開民事有召開的那個"},{"start":5579.338,"end":5582.1,"text":"有建於通訊傳播監督管理基金在110年度透過委託的方式將花費500萬元辦理廣電媒體專業素養培訓及公民培力的業務。"},{"start":5598.01,"end":5625.036,"text":"那他考量說相關內容以及具體的成效那以及成果介入的規劃都沒有相關說明所以他認為說這個也應該要請我們的就是NCC這邊也能夠一併說明那另外還有委員提到的是台灣詐騙情形嚴重那近年詐騙金額跟詐騙案件屢創新高越打越詐那受社會大眾詬病那NCC作為打詐的主管機關重要性在"},{"start":5626.296,"end":5639.884,"text":"主管機關之首也不為過。但是這個通訊傳播監督管理基金也負責宣導防詐事項。他認為其中裡面編列的服務費用那顯然成效不彰所以有一個也希望我們這個"},{"start":5641.926,"end":5662.924,"text":"這個能夠加以說明那另外還有委員是對於臺灣性影像犯罪的那個情形很嚴重這個部分也需要說明那另外也有針對所謂的委託這個辦理網際網路治理環境及諮詢服務的業務他具體成效那也覺得沒有很清楚的說明"},{"start":5663.504,"end":5692.205,"text":"那最後還有就是對於這個這同樣的東西所以大概以上的東西我想說還是要把這個大家的緣由先列述一下那將來再提報告的時候希望我們NCC這些全部都能夠一併的報告以上好黃國昌總召請發言柯總召請準備第一個這個提案的是王宏威委員基本上對王委員的提案"},{"start":5693.328,"end":5721.804,"text":"我是百分之一百支持但我覺得您是代理主委嗎?我希望代理主委在面對這件事情的時候請用嚴肅的態度面對NCC的責任容我再說一次請你用嚴肅的態度面對NCC的責任我剛剛聽你在那邊陳述這件事情說這個是業者自己開的自律倫理委員會是沒有錯啊但大家的問題是NCC做了什麼?"},{"start":5723.581,"end":5742.955,"text":"NCC做了什麼每次來立法院報告廣電業者所有自律的要求要他們自律規範結果開了那什麼自律倫理委員會啊開到自己覺得可能丟人現眼我回來立法院以前就在追這個案子啦"},{"start":5750.066,"end":5761.273,"text":"民事開那個什麼自律倫理委員會啊開到自己覺得丟人現眼在那個自律倫理委員會裡面說什麼話說滾床單是負面名詞嗎對被害者造成了二度嚴重的傷害到今天一句道歉都沒有這種丟人現眼的自律倫理委員會的會議記錄啊後來自己知道"},{"start":5780.233,"end":5807.043,"text":"不要公開比較好直接從網路上面把它拿下來就不公開根本找不到我從2022年就開始追這件事情我到2024年回來以後到2024年他們不曉得什麼時候再偷偷的要把那個補回去大家在質疑的事情是什麼大家在質疑的事情是在整個過程當中有能力去監管廣電媒體"},{"start":5809.741,"end":5818.928,"text":"被害人沒有辦法。被害人只能開記者會哭訴。有能力監管廣電媒體的是你們NCC耶。民視憑什麼把那個會議記錄撤下來?什麼時候偷偷補回去?可以這樣幹喔?不用負任何責任喔?"},{"start":5839.099,"end":5860.964,"text":"謝謝黃董,請柯總召詢我想這個是大包小嘛,最大的是三九案嘛所以國民黨以下的六個案子,七個案子都包在一起,一併處理那補書面報告,羅志祥委員講得很有道理至於黃董講的民視的質疑委員會的問題,請用嚴肅的態度"},{"start":5868.145,"end":5896.061,"text":"峰山委員在這個案子剛才聽說2022年開始追了,反正追到現在也有60次的破案了。該送法案的判刑者都判刑者嘛,兩個已經判刑者,所以這個是刑事責任已經是法院已經判了嘛。至於後續的當然誰做什麼事情,各黨本來就要負責的。至於這個民間的稅務委員會,我不知道"},{"start":5897.382,"end":5899.306,"text":"A系能夠管到什麼程度啊,這個請說明就好。"},{"start":5903.725,"end":5907.368,"text":"謝謝柯總召,那第四十案,陳主委您可以稍微,您現在有話要..."},{"start":5933.365,"end":5948.808,"text":"第二階段的事情而已。謝謝您的補充說明。那第46案我們就凍結10%,10分之一提書面報告。好,各黨應該沒有意見。好,我們進入54案。國民黨團曾經委員提凍結50%...全部都併在一起。對,那提凍結2分之1,250...國民黨團要補充說明嗎?"},{"start":5959.93,"end":5971.484,"text":"沒有了嗎?沒有齁,一樣我們就動...大包小了嘛,已經39案大包小,剛剛羅志強也講得很清楚,其他要說明嘛"},{"start":5972.486,"end":6001.735,"text":"那我們就凍結提書面報告。好,五十四案。五十七案,我們就凍結提書面報告。六十案也是凍結提書面報告。六十一案,國民黨團曾經會提的。跟證。六十案改組決議。那六十一案,我們就國民黨團曾經會提的凍結。凍結二分之一提書面報告。市長是不是併三十九案?全部併了嗎?"},{"start":6004.699,"end":6012.639,"text":"對沒錯 並三十九案 並三十九案沒錯 它主要在三十九案這個科目名稱嘛三十九案您大包小包底下七個案子嘛"},{"start":6014.347,"end":6029.058,"text":"其他案子你要提出說明嘛。對啦,這個合理啊。好,六十二案病委員會決議辦理提出書面報告。六十三案法治業務臺灣民眾黨黨團提出凍結二分之一,請華國昌總召請說明。"},{"start":6035.362,"end":6061.288,"text":"他們花了一些錢了,所以NCC來的建議是凍結10%兩個月內提書面報告時的凍結,這是你們的建議嗎?是嗎?市長請,請,陳代理主委不用客氣請。建議是凍結十分之一提書面報告。凍結十分之一我可以同意,但是時間我願意拉長,給你拉到三個月。"},{"start":6062.287,"end":6078.351,"text":"但是要提專案報告兼同意時的通知陳代理主委主委長請表達意見報告委員就是因為法制業務計畫其實他的預算數額並不大只有248萬那他已經執行了241萬6千只有剩餘6萬4千元所以如果凍結的話會影響到業務的處理奇怪"},{"start":6087.438,"end":6102.112,"text":"如果凍結會影響到業務的處理,凍結10%不是你們自己提的嗎?不好意思我解釋一下,如果是專案報告的話會影響到這個決算的處理。那如果是題書面報告的話凍結數10%是"},{"start":6106.35,"end":6133.413,"text":"所以你的意思是什麼反正提書面報告提來了以後不管裡面寫的內容是什麼就自己解凍了所以對你們不會有困擾提書面報告也是要到委員會這邊來處理第一個我們一樣一樣來不要把所有的事情混在一起好不好凍結百分之十是你們寫的我已經同意了你還要爭執凍結百分之十這件事嗎"},{"start":6136.834,"end":6137.595,"text":"二、我實現願意幫你拉長,拉三個月,但這件事情我希望你們做專題報告,請同意,使得動之。"},{"start":6150.765,"end":6151.285,"text":"好,請柯總召請"},{"start":6182.156,"end":6209.873,"text":"說凍結百分之十幾十分方,那是標配,標準配備啦。那現在拆開來就不一樣了。這一本案有關於三九案已經全部處理一切了嘛。全部併在一起處理就可以。因為剛才三九案拿到同意嘛。所以就全部併到三九案裡面統一處理了嘛。那個現在黃祖昭現在柯總統都說全部併到三九案。有其他黨團的提案我都尊重啊。現在在討論的是台灣民眾黨黨團的提案。"},{"start":6212.648,"end":6221.959,"text":"現在陳代理主和跟主席講,現在黃總召所提的是一個比較寬的狀態,而且是在你們所同意的基礎之上,這應該沒有問題吧?"},{"start":6223.633,"end":6246.701,"text":"國務委員,就是因為專案報告後使得動資的話,我們在決算數,因為我們已經實資了,在決算的處理上會有一些,必須轉,就是會有一些懸賬的問題。那所以希望就是說,如果是,可不可以就改組決議,然後提專案報告?不行。"},{"start":6248.272,"end":6273.8,"text":"我這樣講啦,我已經次數非常大三一,如果連這個你們都要爭執,那沒有關係,那就圍織原案,送院會處理。我們六三案保留送院會處理。好,我們請往下。等一下,院長。好,我現在來... 院長,等一下。紅樁委員既然這樣堅持的話,那當然也無所謂,那後續是你們奏章的問題嘛。應該是這樣啦。"},{"start":6278.588,"end":6286.328,"text":"就是已經實質的經費不能列為實質數那事實上這些業務的支出都已經我知道那是章木作章的問題"},{"start":6289.815,"end":6301.36,"text":"我已經做了裁決我們就不再回頭了這個部分我再說明一下因為他現在248萬他已經用了241萬他只剩下6萬那所以你說要凍結10%他就會有問題不能凍結因為你凍結起來不能凍結但是事實上他已經支用了241萬他只剩下7萬或6萬這樣所以你現在凍結起來不能用"},{"start":6317.586,"end":6319.907,"text":"三九四六五四五七六一並案凍結四百萬元提書面報告"},{"start":6347.162,"end":6348.964,"text":"好謝謝好我們休息十分鐘謝謝"},{"start":7121.186,"end":7121.307,"text":"時間關係我們要快"},{"start":7218.85,"end":7241.682,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部謝謝謝謝請就為我們開始我們現在113度附屬我們勞動部我們現在就業安定基金我們共三案今天列席的所有的我們首先歡迎勞動部紅部長歡迎衛福部的邱部長歡迎您好好謝謝我們第八項"},{"start":7243.224,"end":7245.27,"text":"促進國民就業計畫,國民黨賴世保委員提例減列3億元,請國民黨團請表達意見。"},{"start":7250.697,"end":7277.375,"text":"好,謝謝主席有關於這個我們國民黨團提出來這個有關於就業安定基金是先進了大家所重視的不管是前任的這個勞動部的許部長還有非常多這個基金使用上的一些問題我相信新聞媒體大家都很關注所以我們希望說現在在這個這個基金用途明細表裡面有一個叫做促進國民就業計畫裡面的服務費用"},{"start":7286.539,"end":7298.204,"text":"一般服務費專業服務費等等。那我們希望的是說在一百零九年到一百一十一年的時候決算數字只有七十二億可是我們剛剛講一百一三年的時候"},{"start":7299.669,"end":7326.797,"text":"卻高達八十四億而且在過去的這個預算實現率只有大概九成八成七到九成二所以我們是希望說這個因為預算跟決算數字差異很多有大概十趴的差異性而且一百一三年的時候還增列這麼多所以我們是希望說這個應該要來節省這個人民的納稅錢所以我們是建議要刪除服務費用三億元那這邊我們還是要提說"},{"start":7327.977,"end":7345.53,"text":"就是就業安定基金這些東西一般來講是要真的是要服務人民去就業的部分而不是當作是某些部會首長的一個這個零用錢或是甚至很多媒體說這是小金庫所以我要請部長來協助到底未來這就業安定基金的部分"},{"start":7346.411,"end":7365.033,"text":"如何去好好去查詢說到底有沒有被濫用的這個部分是不是你們自己一定要提一個專案報告來去做檢討因為上次我們大家都知道上次到現在就你的這個調查報告裡面其實就針對這個就業安定基金的部分好像隻字未提以上謝謝"},{"start":7366.635,"end":7385.626,"text":"紅部長張志宏委員提了三個重點第一就是說檢列三億元能不能接受目前執行的多少第二過去就業安定基金有沒有被違法濫用挪用第三展望未來安定基金要怎麼樣正確的定位您先答覆剩下其他黨團要發言請在主席台這裡登記請紅部長"},{"start":7388.47,"end":7403.502,"text":"首先謝謝張志榮委員的一些提醒第一個我先說明一下因為這段時間大家都在討論到救安基金的問題那在救安基金這件事情其實在我上任後其實馬上就要求"},{"start":7404.102,"end":7431.881,"text":"我們發言署開始做檢討的作業到目前一直到今天都還在召開這些檢討作業的會議其實我們到時候一定會針對救安基金的這個改革的方案我們會拿出一個方案那事實上我在委員會裡面也有說大概一個月左右的時間我們必須拿出一個改革方案因為我們很清楚知道這個現在還是在談113年的預算那114年的預算這部分也會是大家一個很重要的重點所以這是第一點要說的事情"},{"start":7433.322,"end":7453.672,"text":"第二點剛剛其實在講到說這個有沒有相關的弊端的事情其實也讓這個目前確實檢調就是在在已經在做這個查查那我們的態度很清楚我們絕對不會有任何的包庇我們會全力的配合檢調在這方面的"},{"start":7457.075,"end":7480.015,"text":"有相關的事證送檢調送證封我絕對絕對不會逃避這部分我們把我們態度可以在這邊再說清楚一次再來一點關於現在當然這個賴斯堡委員的這個提案也就是說在救安基金下面一個促進國民就業計劃下面的這個服務費用那我們大概查了說目前其實因為這單已經現在是年底了嘛目前我們大概"},{"start":7481.277,"end":7492.614,"text":"經費的使用率大概到...到...預計是會到99啦那其實確實現在大概剩下3億元左右目前大概剩下3億元左右所以..."},{"start":7495.39,"end":7495.83,"text":"接下來請吳思堯委員請發言"},{"start":7514.931,"end":7537.251,"text":"陳儒剛剛洪部長的說明就業安定基金不只是現在在處理113年度的國營事業的相關的預算附屬單位的預算其實新年度的預算也都是大家關切的那我也非常同意就不護短不包庇該改革就改革那回到預算書上就是就教於部長如果就如這個刪減數"},{"start":7538.988,"end":7539.569,"text":"臺灣民眾黨 黃國昌總召請發言"},{"start":7552.168,"end":7572.08,"text":"我們尊重提案黨黨團的提案那這個數字看起來也抓得蠻準的那把沒有花的都把它刪掉有助於提高他們的執行率那至於說剛剛所討論到的就業安定基金過去到底怎麼處理的"},{"start":7573.161,"end":7594.278,"text":"在提送相關資料的時候是不是有包庇、有護短,這個不是今天我要處理的問題。臺灣民眾黨黨團對於就業安定基金,我們具體的態度,會呈現在明年的預算處理上面。以上。好,謝謝黃國昌總召的發言。那,黃部長我們這邊如果說三黨,請柯總召請。"},{"start":7597.202,"end":7623.737,"text":"剛才各位都很清楚,新任部長、黃部長以前是大家的老同事,講話也非常誠懇,面對所有問題都沒有迴避,要移送就移送。那有關於就安定基金所三個提案,剛才我們前面幾個案子的處理模式是說,因為你要用的錢,用不掉就把它刪掉。"},{"start":7624.958,"end":7646.49,"text":"那是不是要照這樣三點數這麼高,大家斟酌一下嘛。國民黨也講了嘛,到年底會用到百分之九十九。不要說用到百分之九十九啦,那多三一點也無所謂。用這模式來思考一下可能比較合理。因為你上幾案都是如此處理嘛。那好,請羅志強委員請發言。好的,好,請羅志強。首先,就業安定基金最近正式引起全民公憤。"},{"start":7654.946,"end":7682.665,"text":"那我覺得也不能是一句空話說以後改進就能夠去督促你其實要督促政府機關好好把人民的憤怒記在心裡讓他改進就是你今天做得多爛我就看你多少預算那去萬地基金現在報道變成小金庫馬屁基金然後他的所有的費用拿去開演唱會三百多萬然後什麼沙龍照啊什麼會議室咖啡豆垃圾情侶點點點搞個八千萬"},{"start":7684.475,"end":7709.564,"text":"說真的我覺得今天如果我們今天提議這個檢列三億元我覺得是在幫政府啦等於是幫政府打一個鞭子讓他說你今天如果你在亂搞抱歉明年就三十你明年再更三十億都可以啊因為你沒有好好幫人民把納稅錢用好所以我的主張是這樣那既然我們洪部長也很誠意啊直接跟你講還有三億元沒用嘛那就檢列三億元嘛"},{"start":7713.677,"end":7714.217,"text":"八案簡列三議員1823"},{"start":7733.07,"end":7756.204,"text":"那現在國民黨賴斯堡委員所提的簡列三項跟23案國民黨陳吉瑞所提的簡列5%請國民黨團請表達意見是不是併第八案我跟大家說我覺得剛好也是幫勞動部因為簡列的部分的話其實是給勞動部一個警惕事實上也請你不要再浪費要遵截"},{"start":7756.843,"end":7774.278,"text":"那我覺得那個18案的部分因為就我所知目前跟那個勞動部這邊我們提案的那個委員應該是可以改為主決議所以18案我覺得可以改為主決議但是23案我就認為就是說一樣是這個凍結"},{"start":7776.6,"end":7790.239,"text":"提報告再動之,那原因很簡單,就是說希望再給我們的勞動部一點壓力啦,所以這相關的事情把報告清除,所以前面是簡略,簡略是一種警惕嘛,那後面凍結要你報告也是一種警惕,以上"},{"start":7792.951,"end":7816.32,"text":"各位黨團幹部還有勞動部麻煩聽一下,我們現在就是說18案改為主決議,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見,我們18案改為主決議。23案的話呢,凍結5%提書面報告,請問各黨團有沒有寶貴意見?沒有同意。那紅部長有沒有意見?我說明一下好不好,因為現在當然真的是已經是年底,我不知道可不可以這個凍結,當然就是如果凍結5%,"},{"start":7818.661,"end":7832.357,"text":"但是可不可以在項目上面是這個改到對自行調整到這一般行政管理計畫下面可以自行調整啦好不好因為我們的這個秘書業務確實現在有已經使用的差不多了"},{"start":7832.739,"end":7838.261,"text":"董事長的意思是說現在年底了,我們就凍結830萬,剩下提書面報告之外,他就自己在他這個科目項目下執行的。"},{"start":7859.145,"end":7861.628,"text":"在一般行政的管理向下。"},{"start":7876.795,"end":7895.889,"text":"自行調整。是。好嗎?好。好。各黨那邊沒問題。好。我們232這樣處理。謝謝勞動部紅部長。謝謝您。謝謝。好。各位官員請微笑離開。謝謝。好好好。請衛福部邱部長。好久沒看到紅部長的微笑。笑不出來了。辛苦了。紅部長好久笑不出來了。"},{"start":7910.37,"end":7936.011,"text":"好,各位黨團幹部,我們衛福部我們現在討論我們衛生福利特別收入基金目前國民黨黨團提議檢列百分之五凍結二十分之九那原列數是三千兩百五十萬請提案的國民黨團請表達意見我先說明一下好了先讓提案的委員講完以後你再說嘛,好請"},{"start":7945.66,"end":7966.215,"text":"好,謝謝主席那針對這個衛福特收的基金我們國民黨團我們有委員提出來就是說有關於這個食品安全保護計劃相關的費用我們是認為應該要來去這個因為過去每年大概都只有編列700萬的相關業務支出可是在113年的時候"},{"start":7970.038,"end":7991.098,"text":"我們這個是很震驚的增加了4.64倍464%的規模變成3250萬之多而且我們很多本黨的委員一直想說請基金的主管機關來提出說明可是你們完全沒有任何的說明那我們是不是想說是為什麼稍微是政策改變"},{"start":7992.259,"end":8012.87,"text":"還是什麼樣你們到底有做什麼樣的這個食品安全績效的設定喔才要提這麼多的預算喔那我們是希望說食安一定要顧好可是民脂民膏也要顧好所以我們提案喔要簡列這樣的基金用途的預算數百分之五然後另外也要凍結百分之四十五的預算數"},{"start":8013.931,"end":8029.873,"text":"然後因為你們過去一直以來都沒有提供我們資料,所以我們要限期一個月內向本院提交113年度辦理補助中央主管機關指定或公開徵選者,用於從事其他關促進食品安全等相關費用,在預算"},{"start":8030.834,"end":8034.217,"text":"預算經費較前一年增長464%,就4.64倍的規模所預計達成之績效目標執行計畫,提出專案報告,而且要並經同意後,使得動之。以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。請吳世耀幹事長發言。"},{"start":8049.75,"end":8070.678,"text":"謝謝這個案子我想食品安全保護基金的支用當然要用於食安的相關費用那過去一年來的很多食安的議題中央地方大家都要擴大來聯手來保護人民的安全那就這個預算案的部分呢因為我事前也有跟衛福部的同仁在討論那也督促他們要去跟提案委員"},{"start":8071.418,"end":8095.817,"text":"做說明。上一次第一輪是這樣。所以提案委員就我所知你們應當有去說明也獲得提案委員願意做的一些調整。好像是可以提案委員是陳金輝委員然後他願意做文字上的一些修正用決議的方式該主決議的方式處理這是我追蹤的我一定會去追蹤每一個部門有沒有去跟提案委員做說明"},{"start":8096.377,"end":8121.46,"text":"所以就我的理解是這樣,金輝委員也同意修正文字該主決議,所以是不是就這樣來處理。但修正的文字可能部長要...好,稍微等一下,請台灣民眾黨團請表達意見。黃國昌,黃總長請。只有我們村眾提案黨團,他們自己對這件事情的立場。好,邱部長,現在請您答覆,請。包委員長還有各位各黨團的委員,"},{"start":8122.401,"end":8137.279,"text":"那這個預算是其實是從112年就因為我們有增加人力的一個資源那這個是全部是發給各縣市政府去好好落實食安"},{"start":8138.16,"end":8138.18,"text":"市長請"},{"start":8158.098,"end":8172.954,"text":"院長還有各位委員先跟各位委員報告經費主要是增加支付地方衛生局處進行促進食品安全相關活動的經費其中包括主要有人事業務和管理費"},{"start":8173.695,"end":8174.095,"text":"請問國民黨團有沒有保過意見?"},{"start":8201.835,"end":8204.399,"text":"第六十六條案改為主決議"},{"start":8218.429,"end":8231.558,"text":"113年度運動發展基金原審查報告第四案通過決議免與凍結改組決議。現在請各位黨團幹部要仔細聆聽一下柯建民總召提出來鑒於113年度將"},{"start":8241.755,"end":8263.546,"text":"年度中了,針對113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分,建請除院會協商新增之預算凍結案之外,各委員會審查通過之預算凍結案均免與凍結,改為提出書面報告,"},{"start":8268.092,"end":8273.7,"text":"之後通過。這一點要請教各位黨團幹部卿。我先說明一下。我們現在是在審查年底的嘛。那這個已經"},{"start":8283.995,"end":8303.877,"text":"這個預算是上屆委員所在審查的,留下來的所有的紀錄,包括凍結數等。但是我們在這裡已經重新再讓他協商過,要凍結怎麼樣有新的處理方式。所以舊的部分已經應該可以回去,因為都已經改了,都離開了。要把它改為處決議,就是符合實情。"},{"start":8305.759,"end":8308.222,"text":"好,沒關係,黨團幹部表達大家的意見,沒問題我們都,請,陳醫生委員請"},{"start":8327.711,"end":8357.032,"text":"我覺得這個數難同意因為你說以前已經過去了已經都沒有在這裡了你們對什麼叫什麼轉型正義勒那都多過去了你們還不是一直在往前追究我們這個是立法機構是一直程序下來劉姓林是資深的立委對不對以前你也還在這裡我上一次當然還在這裡所以當然是沒有辦法用通放的方式那以後所有單位只要知道故意把這個拖到臉底然後我們都可以用這一招叫做這叫大赦喔"},{"start":8358.789,"end":8359.35,"text":"無法同意"},{"start":8375.253,"end":8400.096,"text":"那我們就不再處理了,我們現在做宣告包括各位黨團幹部保留的第二輪協商我們已經處理完畢第二輪協商結果就各委員會整理書面後交各黨團確認後送財政委員會並由財政委員會來會診於本日下午五點前送議事處以利明天院會進行保留部分之處理"},{"start":8401.357,"end":8429.734,"text":"同時的併同來處理那也非常感謝大家今天大家的出席也謝謝各位尤其新任主席長陳主席長謝謝你各位列席幹員我們現在這協商結論大家簽嘛沒有辦法處理嘛目前的嗎?今天這今天這目前再簽嗎?"},{"start":8437.54,"end":8443.211,"text":"那有關於這個政交稅以及地方稅法通則那一部分,其他人都還沒簽啊?"},{"start":8447.888,"end":8459.622,"text":"明天要處理前要先處理,因為這個有增加稅明天要處理。一整大家共同來變更,把該處理的處理。那照意思處理。"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"co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社會文化權利公約的施行法把公民政治權利公約國內法化"},{"start":2596.934,"end":2619.408,"text":"那因此他要求必須要實行限縮於最嚴重的犯罪同時經過人權事務委員會解釋之後這個最嚴重的犯罪的話應該限縮於故意殺人的部分可以聽到你對於國際的公約等非常的清楚但是我們認真回到我們台灣我們自己的國家"},{"start":2620.268,"end":2633.304,"text":"目前的現狀在這個判決後限縮的死刑的一個適用範圍已經對判決出現了實質的影響舉例監察女老師的嫌犯在五度判死"},{"start":2634.451,"end":2656.826,"text":"在今年的4月份根市審判決為根市審為無期徒刑逃死定焉在這樣的情況之下新竹輪胎行的縱火奪走了8條人命的這個嫌犯在二審的時候死刑被改判為無期徒刑昨天的新聞你有看到嗎"},{"start":2657.697,"end":2679.591,"text":"我大約了解你有看到被害者家屬的哭求嗎?他呼籲大法官們不要廢死你有聽到嗎?你有沒有看到?我大約知道這個新聞你有看到齁?那你對這些家屬你對這些家屬的哭號目前的社會氛圍你對這些家屬有什麼話說呢?"},{"start":2680.612,"end":2705.168,"text":"我跟委員報告我想在一個社會發生不幸的事件特別是嚴重的犯罪的時候我們應該有兩部分處理第一個我們應該處罰加害者特別是嚴重的犯罪處罰加害者是充分死刑改為無期徒刑加害者的哭求你說你看到了所以本席要請教你對於這些被害者的哭求"},{"start":2706.792,"end":2728.707,"text":"你有什麼話對他們說另外一方面我們的社會應該要建構一個被害人的以及他家屬的保護以及再過去對他的一些援助幫忙的制度所以我們現在有一些犯罪被害人的保護法那如果我們這個保護的制度以及協助制度能夠去加強也就是我們應該是兩個面向"},{"start":2730.228,"end":2732.129,"text":"你怎麼樣嚴處呢?你被害者家屬的痛苦"},{"start":2752.49,"end":2777.93,"text":"還好的呼籲現階段台灣請大法官們不要廢死你聽到了沒你聽到了嗎所以你一方面說要對這個加害者必須要嚴處那你目前的氛圍是是更鬆啊但是對於受害者你說要怎麼保護他他已經是被由這個"},{"start":2783.257,"end":2801.75,"text":"我都激動的說不出啊我很難過啊因為已經有死刑來改判為無期徒刑被害者的家屬的心聲我希望你可以去回應他們啊你願不願意正面的回應"},{"start":2803.082,"end":2819.281,"text":"我相信我們的社會都不希望有悲劇的發生那不過跟各位報告就是說現在我們的制度是大法官也認為憲法法庭也認為此行是合憲的只是說他要嚴謹的順限縮範圍以及嚴謹的制度"},{"start":2821.764,"end":2836.73,"text":"那我們的法律規範其實是特別是殺人罪的話實質判決已經這樣子的判決已經實質的影響到社會的氛圍我也請你去冷靜去思考之因為如果誠如你說的"},{"start":2838.666,"end":2857.282,"text":"讓被害者能夠得到保護讓加害者要嚴懲但是您剛剛所說的論述剛好是相反這樣子的社會信服力是絕對不夠的接下來本校請問你曾經說過終身監禁不得假釋的刑罰那不值得考慮"},{"start":2858.558,"end":2858.858,"text":"我如果記憶沒有錯的話"},{"start":2877.079,"end":2897.124,"text":"我當時發言說那個無期徒刑不得假釋那個刑責是在一個公聽會的討論的過程當時的提案是說要對於如果殺害兒童的話他要把刑罰本來是從比如說10年以上有期徒刑然後無期徒刑跟死刑"},{"start":2897.944,"end":2919.98,"text":"然後限縮只剩下死刑跟無期徒刑也就減少其他的部分不論你是在公聽會或者是什麼樣都會留下記錄這個論述所以本席要請教你如果有機會當上了大法官無論透過判決或者是其他的方式你還會繼續追求更進一步的終極廢死完全廢死嗎?"},{"start":2920.78,"end":2925.602,"text":"你的模擬回答已經是社會目前的氛圍沒有辦法接受的因為八成的民意是支持"},{"start":2941.874,"end":2942.054,"text":"你認同吧?"},{"start":2960.969,"end":2985.311,"text":"感謝委員的指教那我們想一起來思考這整個他們社會的脈動不要讓受害者惡毒的傷害你都不願意正面回應當然這是我們共同的希望還好你補充所以本席要強調加害人權的時候你在強調加害人權的時候那你更要注意要更要注重我們整個"},{"start":2986.352,"end":3000.883,"text":"善良者的一個權益善良的一個權益非常的重要接下來本期要跟你討論NCC這個連連敗訴的問題被提名的你曾經擔任的中間換照審查的鑑定人你當時以中間新聞台"},{"start":3001.583,"end":3020.891,"text":"被開罰的件數、範圍跟罰款．很多的這些理由．批評中天．更說中天是危害的兒童、少年身心的健康．危害公共秩序、善良風俗．或者是他自撥新聞違法事實、查證的原則．後來中天關台了"},{"start":3022.592,"end":3035.788,"text":"寫下了我國媒體被關檯的案例但是問題來了你鑑定完你罵完了結果呢中天對於這個罰則呢他提出了提起了這個行政訴訟已經21連勝也就是NCC罰處"},{"start":3042.435,"end":3065.689,"text":"但是被法院打臉,NCC法處被法院打臉21次的敗訴,終天免罰在這樣情況之下請問當時你的鑑定的依據是什麼?你當時這些財主如果都是免罰那你還會一樣的做出走向關台的這個鑑定嗎?請做說明"},{"start":3069.215,"end":3088.382,"text":"我擔任那個個案的鑑定人只是一個個案的鑑定人後續的所有的個案的話我並不了解細節那我當然已經說明過了你要甩鍋嗎你就是鑑定人啊鑑定人就要提出意見啊提供參考嘛當時你是這麼樣的一個方向嘛"},{"start":3090.905,"end":3118.871,"text":"是當時我剛才已經說明了就當時的這個個案的話我是他有一個法律推論的脈絡這個法律推論的脈絡的話包括﹐法律推動的脈絡也就是你當時的鑑定所以本席要請教你當時鑑定的依據是什麼你現在已經按信息21連敗啊當時鑑定是依據廣播電視法廣播電視法它有基本的換照的要件"},{"start":3120.011,"end":3120.831,"text":"我不能夠做鑑定那個結果"},{"start":3149.369,"end":3174.32,"text":"本席告訴你鑒定不是結果你的提供鑒定你提供參考嗎我今天的意見還是一樣啊我剛才說了原則是一樣還是一樣依據廣播電視法來本席請教你既然告訴我還是一樣那你認為關台的結果是對還是不對因為你是大法官的提名人請以你現在的身分告訴我告訴本席你認為這個結果關台是對還是錯"},{"start":3177.421,"end":3191.945,"text":"我沒有辦法判斷是對或錯因為我是鑑定人我只能去看他的這個要件是否符合那不論正面或負面我都要訴說那你的訴說你認為是對還是錯"},{"start":3196.375,"end":3222.526,"text":"我個人的情況是我依據廣播電視法的要件看到正面跟負面的情況你對於因否裁罰難道沒有判斷嗎你依據廣播電視法的這個方向結果答案是連連被打臉所以你是一味的偏向當時的NCC嗎還是你根本不同意我願意跟你講還是你根本不同意現在法院的判決"},{"start":3224.006,"end":3242.313,"text":"我個人的了解是其實我的建議意見現在網路上還可以查得到我如果沒有理解錯誤的話那換句話說NCC做出的決定被法院整個打臉的時候那麼本席再一次請教你認為是不是NCC被法院打臉"},{"start":3244.613,"end":3262.993,"text":"本來本席認為你的學術涵養是非常的高本席希望能夠聽到一些論述但是你還是沒有辦法正面去回應所以我希望以下我們要討論的議題你能夠正面來回應"},{"start":3263.874,"end":3277.662,"text":"好 我們來看看政治背景跟司法獨立的這個問題因為之所以會提到你的監禁人的過往是因為你的政治背景跟記錄都可能讓人認為你可以必備司法獨立"},{"start":3279.966,"end":3303.041,"text":"這個特別的獨立性的這個符合大法官那所以呢因為你不只是長期的親綠你根本就是民進黨的高官因為你擔任過民進黨中央黨部仲裁委員你還是民進黨2024年不分區立委提名委員會的名單之一那麼你也擔任過這個賴清德先生就任黨主席的建交人那很多外界的人質疑"},{"start":3304.042,"end":3332.805,"text":"副院長提名進總主委大法官提名這個民進黨的高層那民進黨把憲法法庭當成是自己開的嗎一般民眾看到這樣子的一個背景他都非常質疑他並不符合大法官的獨立超然的要素那你要如何的來說服民眾在你大法官的職務上面你可以保持政治中立並保持大法官在裁決重大案件的時候不受政治影響請做說明"},{"start":3334.821,"end":3348.554,"text":"我剛才說過就是民進黨仲裁會的話他是一個司法的機制不要解釋因為大家很清楚請問你要如何說服社會大眾你如果成為大法官你要怎麼樣政治中立"},{"start":3349.275,"end":3378.232,"text":"你在這個裁判的時候不受政治的影響請說說明我擔任仲裁會的委員本來就是政治中立的我們並沒有介入或是涉入任何的黨務好 你好一個政治中立那我就要告訴你我要告訴你也提醒提名人法律不是為政治服務的它更不能成為酬庸或者是有關係就沒關係部分黨派超然中立呢一定要謹記在心"},{"start":3379.502,"end":3395.589,"text":"是當然是好一個是所以呢我也希望在當任上大法官的時候呢你不是只有聽從賴清哲先生也不是只有聽從民進黨的賴議大法官黨議大法官可以承諾嗎當然當然接下來可以承諾我們來討論貪污的問題喔立場的問題喔"},{"start":3399.651,"end":3416.599,"text":"民進黨執政的時候多次傳出了這些貪污跟違法的爭議讓社會大眾有很大的疑慮但是我們看到目前為止民進黨的內部或高層的貪污我們看到社會大眾對於司法"},{"start":3417.479,"end":3441.917,"text":"機關的處理：不管是它的速度：或者是結果都表示疑慮在這樣的情況之下：就成如臺原綠能的前董事長陳啟玉重大的案件臺南地檢申請羈押但是到了法院他說什麼他罪證不足所以就當庭釋放然後在看告的時候才會因為他不到庭所以在11月4號才發布通緝"},{"start":3445.299,"end":3465.609,"text":"那院檢雙方遭質疑的時候就是說你沒有科技監控你也沒有延遲而且延遲開庭你縱容了這些縱容這些犯罪者可以脫逃在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教社會大眾的這些噴擊你認為有道理嗎"},{"start":3467.568,"end":3495.814,"text":"我想社會一定會關心各種的可能的貪污你認為有道理嗎當然社會會關心這個貪污的案件社會大眾有道理嗎你認為社會大眾的質疑有道理嗎就是他一定會關心各種的可能的你認為有沒有道理社會大眾關心一定是有道理的一定是有道理好一個有道理所以本期要請教你認為司法院的角色要怎麼樣去改善這些案件的處理呢請做說明"},{"start":3496.953,"end":3501.736,"text":"請針對你現在是被提名者提出你的論述本席願意時間給你說明你要就你自己的一個論述嘛你一直提到所有的相關機關難怪很多人說你是高層啊"},{"start":3524.635,"end":3549.147,"text":"你是高官啊你怎麼不講你的論述只有一直在講機關怎麼樣的、總統府怎麼樣的你現在是大法官的提名者嘛願意給你時間說明啊因為它是個案檢察官的偵查還有個案法院的判決這個部分的話應該由獨立的司法機關包括檢察官跟法院去做處理我們應該要尊重司法的獨立那就不要你大法官啊"},{"start":3549.787,"end":3577.539,"text":"大法官要釋憲啊你這麼說就你完全沒有責任啊你當一個大法官都跟你都不相關啊從頭到尾你都沒有表達你自己的論述到底你現在還支持不支持死刑會不會終極死刑廢死你通通都不回答你通通都沒答出啊所以本席再次請教你會不會繼續的推動"},{"start":3579.155,"end":3581.496,"text":"謝謝楊委員也謝謝貝廷銘人接下來請張祺凱委員詢問"},{"start":3636.933,"end":3640.897,"text":"德甲主席、其他被提名人請調被提名人答詢早被提名人,你在五月份的時候曾經擔任法評會這個委員"},{"start":3661.427,"end":3672.736,"text":"這陣子為了勞動部的霸凌案沸沸揚揚引起大家抗議的就是利益良善那句話結果發現你當選法評會委員的時候你們的這個評鑑裡面出現一句話"},{"start":3680.237,"end":3707.651,"text":"這個懲戒法院的前院長李伯道退職他因為傳出說有適度性騷擾女部署女部署提出申戒之後司法院已經劇狀向你們法官評鑑委員會做個案評鑑結果你是裡面委員之一法評會直到監察院率先彈劾李伯道之後才敢建議撤職更嚴重的是畫面這一句話"},{"start":3709.517,"end":3734.226,"text":"李博大被控、霸凌、羞辱了你工友跟你科長結果法庭會頒出一個他任內改革有功最後面那計畫非常的嚴重你是委員,你們那時候為什麼在評鑑的時候寫了這段話?不具重大的惡意沒有損及書法威信所以評鑑不成立你在霸凌跟被霸凌者之間你選擇站在霸凌者這邊嗎?關關相護嗎?當初怎麼會做這樣的評鑑?"},{"start":3739.262,"end":3762.131,"text":"報告委員大家知道法官評鑑委員會是一個合意制的制度必須要全體委員去討論然後在做如果必要的時候做投票做決定那它有兩個階段第一個階段是有沒有成立第二個階段是說有沒有重大的情況"},{"start":3763.175,"end":3778.668,"text":"那他的整個制度的運作的過程是這樣子大法官會議也是集體運作嘛你這個也是集體運作啊這裡面有人有意見喔周宇修他就回避喔"},{"start":3779.673,"end":3808.302,"text":"你是沒有迴避你是參與到底的啊我現在提醒你第一個你是選擇在霸凌跟被霸凌者之間你到底站在哪一邊這不是跟勞動部那個霸凌的案子是一樣的嗎怎麼會出現不計重大惡意幫他偷墜嗎 評鑑不存在這是一個更離譜的還有第二句話你們還搬出說司法院曾經讚良李柏道任內改革有功你是寫法律的這何無邏輯嗎改革有功就可以霸凌嗎"},{"start":3811.138,"end":3840.181,"text":"改革有功就可以霸凌嗎?李博道可以霸凌他的女工友、霸凌他的理科長?你們的報告裡面竟然說司法院說他任內改革有功所以憑藉不成立改革有功的人就可以霸凌別人嗎?這兩個點是不是都很嚴重?你現在是站在霸凌者那一方怎麼能夠同意你讓的大法官之後"},{"start":3841.243,"end":3843.509,"text":"你會捍衛人權嗎?他會被霸凌者嗎?"},{"start":3844.872,"end":3844.892,"text":"張文貞議員"},{"start":3876.312,"end":3877.773,"text":"你現在如果通過了大法官你現在是到大法官會議裡面去你是一樣的態度嗎?"},{"start":3900.919,"end":3923.57,"text":"你有沒有捍衛我們的人權嗎?有沒有捍衛、保護這個被霸凌者嗎?是,因為我再次說明,它真的是一個合意制的情況。我不應該說出那個合意制的過程跟內容。這是我不應該做的事情。那我們的意見就透過這個意見去呈現。"},{"start":3924.881,"end":3926.862,"text":"你一直在強調你捍衛人權當然你看到兩個人被霸凌了"},{"start":3948.274,"end":3970.664,"text":"你都沒有那個勇氣站出來幫他們講話我們怎麼相信你當了大法官之後你有那個道德勇氣貫徹你所謂捍衛人權嗎保障被霸凌者呢來我繼續看這次提名裡面很多人在討論的是你的政黨色彩你現在到底要準備要當憲法的守護神或者是守護者你是民進黨中央黨部仲裁委員會的主委"},{"start":3973.407,"end":4000.262,"text":"民進黨執政黨的中央評委會是不是這麼簡單的你在給我回答的這個問卷裡面你說無幾職你不參加政黨活動你看一下這個照片這張照片賴清德接任民進黨黨主席你是兼交人欸很重要欸第二個這是不黨務活動黨主席的"},{"start":4004.018,"end":4011.094,"text":"賴清德從代理主席陳其邁：手上接下的印信就職典禮 接行你黨務活動"},{"start":4013.488,"end":4037.691,"text":"你不參加黨務活動這是黨務活動我跟主席 我跟那個委員報告就是說為什麼會由仲裁會主委來擔任主席的監事人就是因為仲裁會是一個獨立的機制他是一個獨立的機制因此由這個獨立的機制來擔任監事人那你如果定位你是不參與黨務活動的你就不要去參加這個嘛第二個你還參與了民進黨不分區的這個提名作業"},{"start":4039.071,"end":4063.764,"text":"民進黨很重要你看一下你看這個媒體裡面對你的評價是怎麼樣法界人士說對廖福特的評價是很多見解都是台獨就是挺綠的台獨派啊你今天站在這邊就是一個機會啊你要解釋清楚你要怎麼去化解人民對你的這個餘力啊政黨身材這麼重現在大法官本來形象很好為什麼現在一落千丈變成執政黨的打手嘛"},{"start":4065.627,"end":4072.19,"text":"跟委員報告就是我剛才強調的就是因為他是一個獨立的機制那我進一步說明比如仲裁會的委員的話他其實是由仲裁會委員自己去"},{"start":4095.322,"end":4113.834,"text":"推選 至於推選根本不是黨主席提名的這是不是黨務活動所以為什麼法界那麼多人會認為說你是挺綠的嘛因為他是一個司法的機制我們來談下一個案子中天這個換照案剛剛楊瓊英、楊偉銘也問了你了我更關心的是你看一下這個圖"},{"start":4121.991,"end":4147.719,"text":"你身為中天幻照案的鑑定人7位鑑定人你看這樣一個時間序10點30分你們7個人都在除了你之外有沈博洋、林立勤你看這些有功的人現在都當民進黨的立法委了你也坐在那邊我關心的是你到了下午2點04分的時候你不見了這裡面有兩個很重要的問題喔"},{"start":4149.585,"end":4178.37,"text":"第一個你有沒有愧對你的職責你是鑑定人啊會開到五點你兩點零四分就不見了你以後當了大法官開會年一半要嘛不去要嘛就像這樣可以落跑嗎這是第一個第二個更重要的這一場換照也很重要嘛中天的法律代理一直問啊他說我想要詢問七位鑑定人啊啊你不在你不只愧對職責這麼重要的事情人家要問你"},{"start":4181.021,"end":4202.242,"text":"找不到你問阿你為什麼要提前離職那你當個大法官是不是要提前離職提前離開位置我跟委員說明就我記憶所及因為我當天下午有另外的會議我已經事先跟NCC報告跟說明了說我當天在早上我可以參與可是下午我就沒有辦法參與"},{"start":4203.183,"end":4231.543,"text":"那我記憶所及的是NCC有跟我們說就我們的鑑定意見是發表鑑定意見那可是並不會跟當時的人鑑定人很重要耶 攸關了一個電視台要不要關台而且你要接受人家的詢問嘛 對不對結果那一天你們是負責要接受詢問跟鑑定的人人家要找你的時候你已經不在了這個愧對職守的同時現在什麼 是高高在上嗎現在我們要不要審查要不要讓你過去看這個嘛"},{"start":4232.964,"end":4259.501,"text":"我沒有擔心到時候你會不會開會開一半倒跑嘛所以你看我從一開始談已經談了三個案子要嘛你在會上你沒有保護這個被霸凌者然後在這個會上面你沒有讓那個去人家要問你的時候你已經不在了這如果這個兩個場景如果出現在大法官的會議不是只有你丟臉了台灣人會不會很丟臉會不會是我在容許我"},{"start":4260.242,"end":4286.585,"text":"我説明剛才我説的第一點我已經事先跟NCC說了因為我下午有會議第二個我記憶所...所以你被提言你説你不重要反正你...反正剛剛講的你剛剛那個會你不表示意見你不重要那這個你可以請假就...你不重要嘛反正你隨時可以離開那第二個就是說...如果關一個電視台會不會關台就以後你當個大法官你要決定多少關於人民生命財產安全的事情你可以隨時請假可以隨時不在"},{"start":4288.74,"end":4313.373,"text":"這並不是這樣子另外一個就是說他那個安排如果是鑑定人跟就是申請人或者是那個中天電視台他其實我記憶所及他本來就沒有特別的安排說是有鑑定人跟那個方式人就是中天電視台因為這個身份不適合啊所以你不重要嘛你不重要嘛那天你在不在都不重要嘛可是後來電視台被關牌了嘛對不對"},{"start":4315.155,"end":4342.293,"text":"就算你如果當不當大法官也不重要嘛來我們來談廢死的這個事情廢死昨天有一個很重要的就是大法官宣布實施廢死之後第一個逃死的案子定讞了陳彥祥輪胎行這個縱火案燒死了8條人命8個都是他的至親可是他逃 昨天他變成無期徒刑了家屬非常絕望的吶喊"},{"start":4343.496,"end":4371.31,"text":"妹們還不算情節最嚴重嗎?妹們還不算情節最嚴重嗎?還有施斗獎你教師隨機殺人啊不算情節重大大家看那個他的先生拿著他的遺物他上個禮拜來立法院參加公聽會"},{"start":4372.824,"end":4395.641,"text":"他講到韓國瑜院長都忍不住都掉眼淚了我們在下面忍不住都哭了你在強調你是捍衛人權的可是我們現在看到的你捍衛是霸凌者的人權捍衛的是加害人的人權對霸凌者的人權在哪裡受到傷害的家屬的人權在哪裡"},{"start":4397.881,"end":4425.051,"text":"我先問你一個很重要的問你一個很重要的情節他們一直在質疑說什麼叫做情節重大對不對你一直在強調你是重視人權的所謂情節重大這個部分是不是我來表解一下剛剛那兩個案子八條人命不算情節重大你教室那麼悲慘他那個被敲擊那個過程那個密錄器敲得敲擊那個聲音讓人家心疼一個人"},{"start":4425.902,"end":4431.493,"text":"一條生命的消失的過程多麼悲慘的事情那還不是情節最重大嗎?怎麼樣才是情節最重大?"},{"start":4432.585,"end":4458.182,"text":"就我了解113宪判自第8號的話他是引用參考了公民政治權利公約第6條以及第36號一般性意見他認為他這個詮釋之後認為公民政治公約第6條所謂警戒最嚴重的犯罪的話他應該限縮於故意殺人的部分由這個部分的話在公民政治權利公約的概念的話應該還是可以處死刑"},{"start":4458.642,"end":4463.464,"text":"法定刑10年以上有期徒刑、無期徒刑、死刑各別個案應該尊重各別法官或合議庭"},{"start":4478.746,"end":4481.108,"text":"所以就這兩個案子你認為都還不過嚴重就對了?貝斯聯盟以前當過貝斯聯盟的執行委員"},{"start":4505.947,"end":4522.846,"text":"所以今天才要讓你去回答這個問題到底現在所有的受難的家屬都在呼喊什麼叫做情節最重大你是廢死聯盟的執行委員大家希望從你嘴巴裡面聽到什麼是情節最重我問的最簡單的這兩個案子算不算情節非常嚴重很重大8條人命"},{"start":4524.428,"end":4525.969,"text":"所以我剛剛問了你兩個具體的個案嘛現在全民最生氣的第一個"},{"start":4545.97,"end":4572.739,"text":"不是八成是九成事件之後實質廢死是九成的民眾都是抗議跟反對的民眾現在抗議什麼現在法官還有某些人處心積力幫兇手改無期徒刑你們有在意過被害者的家屬嗎你們對家人這麼百般呵護誰有去在乎被害者那個眼淚跟苦痛我們聽一下好不好那一天在講的時候韓國瑜韓院長都流淚了他昨天"},{"start":4573.963,"end":4589.778,"text":"請注意,下個禮拜播出了,我們看加害者心裡是有多痛前面一路判死就實在是他們看到這個是罪大惡極到最後沒有判死改成無期不是根據精神上的對調根據非情節最嚴重之罪我會"},{"start":4595.236,"end":4604.934,"text":"所以這幾個字特別感冒是因為最高法院他是等到大法官事先出來最高法院"},{"start":4606.256,"end":4631.533,"text":"兩個禮拜10月04號就馬上根據說不是犯最嚴重之罪所以從事情改成無解是這樣的所以我才要他們講清楚嘛你用這個判你一定要很清楚才對啊否則對我們被害人你怎麼可以心服所以我要他講清楚最高法案他就根據大法官有恃無恐很奇怪一個殺人犯值得國家動用這種"},{"start":4632.814,"end":4638.058,"text":"叫做蠻荒之力來替他做這些事情這個國家到底怎樣了"},{"start":4663.581,"end":4686.227,"text":"法官叫你講話你直接拿來講話講不完全你之後的補述沒有人理你到最後我最高法院我申請平意因為大法官你說要每一個人都每一個法官必須都贊成廢死或都不贊成都要一致決我就要申請平意被駁圍理由是我不是當事人我是被害人家屬而且我是當事人"},{"start":4688.257,"end":4690.858,"text":"當殺人犯從死刑變成無期徒刑的時候他說"},{"start":4719.584,"end":4743.991,"text":"兇手跟法官也判了我們家無期的痛苦無期徒刑那個煎熬跟痛苦有多嚴重昨天同樣站在你這邊的另外一位廢體評審他說他辦過案子他說小孩子被殺害了母親跟著小孩一起死掉了母親跟著他受害的小孩一起死掉了"},{"start":4747.459,"end":4773.075,"text":"在台灣受害者的這個家屬為什麼會像這個剛剛這個他講的沒有地位他講的都哽咽了他還提現在有幾個有多少個案子殺警案的姐姐也出來講你們現在碰到的困難就是以後我們要碰到的所有的家屬都這麼無助結果我們看到的你一直在捍衛這個在幫忙廢死聯盟在幫幫忙加害者的同時你有想過他們的困境嗎"},{"start":4775.129,"end":4795.019,"text":"所以我用人的段給你聽啊你有沒有想過要跟他們面對面溝通請聽他們的講話你願意嗎如果要安排受害者的家屬你好好坐下來面對面請聽他們的聲音幫他們解決問題解除他們的苦痛你願意嗎我當然願意如果有很好的機會的話"},{"start":4798.365,"end":4825.216,"text":"我會安排這個事情好不好我希望不是只有你所有在幫加害者人權的人你們也要靜下來去面對面好好去傾聽被害者的家屬是多麼的痛苦另外一個我看你這個問卷裡面你對於廢死這個事情你一直都沒有表態嘛我一直在提醒你你是廢死聯盟的執行委員民眾要從你的嘴巴裡面立法院要從你的嘴巴裡面清楚的知道"},{"start":4826.344,"end":4853.915,"text":"為此既然民眾有高達九成的臺灣民眾是不接受的現在臺灣民眾要跟著走走這種事情現在一堆本來判了死刑的最近可能會放出來人民是多麼的恐懼臺灣的馬路上出現可能有出現殺人魔這個事情要怎麼去補救這都大法官造成一堆的後遺症這問題多嚴重所以希望你站在被害者人權這邊站在被霸凌者這邊好不好不要只有高高在上"},{"start":4855.782,"end":4858.964,"text":"主席我們有請廖提名人"},{"start":4884.537,"end":4886.158,"text":"請廖備提名人答詢廖備提名人我們在這次的審查之前呢有請每一位的大法官備提名人提供相關的財產申報表對嗎您也有繳交對嗎是那您看一下這一份您繳交的這個財產申報是否屬實"},{"start":4919.838,"end":4925.569,"text":"那我用螢光筆畫起來的這一塊我把個資都碼掉了確實是您所擁有的土地對嗎?"},{"start":4926.837,"end":4930.838,"text":"那請問在這塊螢光筆畫起來的地號裡面你有沒有租給別人做生意?"},{"start":4956.574,"end":4979.674,"text":"我現在沒有辦法完全記憶清楚為什麼?你有沒有租給別人做生意你沒有辦法記憶清楚?因為它是一個地號地號嗎?對好,那我給你看一下地圖好不好來,我們看下一張投影片這塊地就是我們從臺北地震雲跟Google Map比對這塊地是否就是您所擁有的?"},{"start":4981.852,"end":4983.073,"text":"請問這一塊地作為洗車場是否合法或是有什麼相關規定?"},{"start":5007.681,"end":5030.399,"text":"陳主任有跟我說他有去就是依據各種法律規定進行有各種法律規定進行是那你現在看我們看一下你現在看這樣子的這個圖上面你認為他是一個合法的你看得出來他是合法的還是違法的嗎"},{"start":5032.13,"end":5039.329,"text":"據陳樹仁跟我說的話不是據陳樹仁你是大法官被提名人啊你對法律沒有了解嗎?你還需要問你的作客嗎?"},{"start":5040.441,"end":5063.637,"text":"他就是一個洗車的行業洗車的行業我問你的是上面這個你已經知道是你的地了他這個洗車的行業上面他有沒有違法之處嗎我認為我目前為止並沒有了解說他有任何的其他的違法的地好你認為他沒有違法對不對我告訴你他是違法的為什麼因為他有違建"},{"start":5067.324,"end":5090.62,"text":"說的那個違建因為他後來就改成那個是一個布棚式的一樣啊你這就是知法軟法嘛來我們看一下布棚式的他洗車的時候會不會拉出來拉出來的當下是不是違建所以你根本就都一直都知道嘛你知道嗎你們這早就已經被檢舉過很多次了來我們看一下打勾的那一塊你們是用這樣子的方式所謂的洗車場"},{"start":5091.821,"end":5119.383,"text":"就是一個違章建築上面那個瀑棚就是不可以的而且我們很多居民都已經檢舉你了結果呢遲遲不改善遲遲不改善呢109年就查爆了一直到112年才拆除上面的頂棚而且現在他其實在部分的時間裡面他依然是違建你作為一個大法官的被提名人你自己的財產都違法了你要讓我們怎麼相信你做一個大法官你能夠公平公正"},{"start":5122.056,"end":5143.504,"text":"你有什麼意見要說的嗎?因為我只有共有的一部分有什麼?你講話太小聲了剛剛媒體都跟我們說根本聽不清楚蔡委員你有提到就是說那個我是只有共有的一部分不是嘛共有但是你剛剛我問你做什麼你也說是洗車場你也說洗車場的人有告訴你說這個油怎麼樣怎麼樣所以你已經知道這個地方是怎麼樣的地方你也知道它曾經被查爆嗎?"},{"start":5144.77,"end":5144.81,"text":"來我們繼續看"},{"start":5166.164,"end":5190.074,"text":"你們用伸縮棚架去規避稽查你知道這多可惡的一個知法犯法的行為嗎你說你有法學常識你說你懂法律所以你要這個所謂的伸縮棚架去違避稽查知道稽查人員要來的時候把棚子收起來在坐洗車、茶要洗車的時候把棚子拉開來一個知法犯法的人憑什麼做我們國家的大法官啊"},{"start":5191.937,"end":5208.809,"text":"你剛剛已經說了喔你已經說他們後來有改善變成是伸縮的喔所以你是知道這件事的喔你不要告訴我說你之前不知道你現在才知道喔你剛剛已經說出來了喔這叫做知法、犯法、玩法越懂法律的人越知道怎麼玩法這就是你廖福特你的財產是做這樣子的欸洗車的時候把他打開來就好像沒有違規機場員員來的時候把他收起來卻罰不到你"},{"start":5219.912,"end":5221.514,"text":"請問這個洗車場有沒有開發票?請問這是不是一個合法的免用同意發票?"},{"start":5239.76,"end":5257.428,"text":"是是你懂不懂法律啊你這部分我確實不是完全了解你不知道你連統一發票免開統一發票的收據長怎樣你都不知道所以你連一般生活市警小民知道的法規你都不知道你跟我說你要當大法官你要當大法官"},{"start":5259.403,"end":5283.005,"text":"看一下再看一下再看一次這張免誘統一收據我是早餐店出身的小孩子我都知道這個就不是一個合法的免誘統一發票收據它只蓋了一個收據專用章然後什麼都沒有寫就提供給你上面的數字隨你便這就是你家租給人家的洗車場啊你還說業者告訴你說沒有違規啊你自己的財產自己租給別人都沒有去了解"},{"start":5284.605,"end":5313.363,"text":"莫名其妙再來我們看一下洗車場的統一發票收據我非常覺得奇怪是你們你做大法想要做大法官的人還不知道這就是涉嫌逃入罪正常的免用統一發票的發票上面要什麼免用發票專章負責人小章然後呢要把品項單價總價都要寫好這個左邊的叫做免用發票專用"},{"start":5316.73,"end":5318.252,"text":"還沒完喔我告訴你還沒完喔你們這裡還沒完喔"},{"start":5335.538,"end":5350.108,"text":"我覺得非常可恥做一個大法官的被提名人想要當大法官的人自己的土地上面到處都是違規好 接下來看起來你很愛賺錢嘛上午是洗車場嘛那你知道他晚上會變什麼嗎"},{"start":5351.874,"end":5369.244,"text":"你下午租給騎車場對不對?下午租給誰?晚上租給誰?我不完全知道你不完全知道?你的土地上在做什麼不完全知道?那我告訴你因為這是我的選區所以我非常清楚很多人檢舉你們晚上在做停車場來我們看一下請問在這塊土地上面做停車場之用你看那邊有個P有沒有做停車場有沒有違法還是它是合法的?"},{"start":5381.469,"end":5409.542,"text":"請問你違法還是合法?如果是合法為什麼合法?如果是違法為什麼違法?因為他看起來有沒有作為一個所謂的停車場還是說土地的臨時的租用這個細節我並不清楚並不清楚上面就給你寫一個批了啦你是沒有眼睛是不是啊上面就告訴你說這是停車場啦然後你跟我說你並不清楚然後你也知道這是你家的地"},{"start":5410.66,"end":5429.524,"text":"好 我告訴你你這個停車場沒有向臺北市的交通局去登記它就是一個違規的停車場我們看一下影片這是2024 10月22喔才剛拍的喔來我們看一下影片開到你們那裡你看這個打開的旁邊就是違建啊"},{"start":5432.132,"end":5435.093,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5454.778,"end":5468.444,"text":"收費你剛剛說你不知道這個地方是有收費沒收費我告訴你了他在收費而且你知道嗎你們可惡的地方在哪裡你們沒有收費標準來有時候給人家收50塊有時候給人家收70塊這是在google評論上面就可以找到的這家洗車場的評價飽受批評啊大家怎麼說真的是很扯停進去才說50塊是月停的零停要70塊"},{"start":5480.109,"end":5505.774,"text":"停車費用不老實門口一小時70門口貼50進去才跟你說是月租然後呢不要被停車的門口50片了停好了等故意停好了才告訴人家是70塊你家上午的這個洗車場已經是違禁了已經違法逃漏稅用不對的發票了晚上還坐非法的洗車停車場還跟人家亂收錢"},{"start":5508.394,"end":5514.657,"text":"外面寫0停50停進去70而且你根本沒有向臺北市交通局去申請這裡作為合法停車場好收據也一樣來我們看一下你看得懂他寫什麼嗎停完車以後給你一個這個你看得懂嗎我一開始看不懂並沒有大概只看到那個500的數字500是什麼500是說押金500你要停進去的時候要先給押金500塊才停啊你覺得很合理嗎"},{"start":5540.597,"end":5557.443,"text":"所以不出話來了你的財產我一開始不就問是不是你的財產前面你還說你也知道有洗車場那你就是對這個地是了解的嘛你對這裡做什麼使用是了解是因為今天被我全部找出來你才敢才說你不了解嘛我再問你一次說剛剛講的洗車場剛剛講的停車場有沒有違規"},{"start":5566.533,"end":5578.463,"text":"這個讓我再釐清一下好不好因為我不用釐清我告訴你就有違規了你作為大法官我剛剛講成這樣你還不知道有沒有違法啊那你做什麼大法官啊你一般基本的法學常識都沒有做什麼大法官啊這是最簡單的吧在床哪一個人不知道啊免用防疫發票怎麼開不知道啊有沒有你申請一個停車場沒有去交通局做申請會違法不知道啊蓋一個棚架出來然後呢是違建不知道啊這有這麼難嗎"},{"start":5597.005,"end":5598.166,"text":"民眾陳情非常多次了來我們看民眾的陳情民眾呢"},{"start":5610.313,"end":5638.592,"text":"這個上面T10-112-0907這是檢舉編號像臺北市的1999多次的陳情上面就寫說你們在停車然後呢而且你們會讓車子就開上去那個人行道這些都是違規的因為你沒有去申請使用不斷的去陳情拆不掉就是拆不掉不停業就是不停業我剛剛給你看的影片是我這一個月每天都去停車每天都去洗車留下來的紀錄"},{"start":5640.373,"end":5658.878,"text":"陳秦涵怎麼寫的為了多搜集證據前往拍攝去遭到有人現場制止後來旁邊的人就說這個業者後台很硬因為後台是現任不分區提名委員會的委員廖姓就是在說你就是在說你"},{"start":5659.804,"end":5685.54,"text":"你知道嗎?像我們陳情的人他一直問為什麼這裡可以違規蓋洗車場、違建為什麼停車場我們檢舉這麼多次都弄不掉他說因為這邊的這個擁有這塊土地的人後台很硬因為他是民進黨部分區提名委員會的委員（廖福特你在當民進黨部分區提名委員會的委員的時候你的官位就這麼大那請問你當了大法官你還得了真的是還得了"},{"start":5689.175,"end":5709.913,"text":"好我再問你一次我再問你一次再給你一次機會我剛剛所述的以上是不是都違法違規違法他確實有一些應該說的一些哪一些你重述一次我剛剛跟你講了整個案情你現在你聽完我剛剛跟你分析的你現在一個一個指出你哪裡違規哪裡違法了我給你時間講"},{"start":5713.141,"end":5741.436,"text":"因為剛才大概提到幾件的事項那我是不是在之後我來稍微了解之後才了解這是你家的房子之後才了解我就講嘛你從109年就被查爆的東西嘛你112年才想說要改善而且還是用一個違法、知法、犯法、玩法的方式來改善平常他一樣我們回到剛才那個我們去停車的那個圖再播一次這個影片"},{"start":5745.165,"end":5761.622,"text":"好按暫停再播一次按暫停我要給你看那個棚子你們的改善方式那個棚子有沒有違法有沒有違規是不是違建你說你要伸縮的就沒事了嗎你把它拉出來的時候它就是違建啦"},{"start":5763.496,"end":5774.66,"text":"這是一種規避法律的方式啊你作為一個大法官你竟想著要如何規避法律啊所以你說沒有啊我們已經改成伸縮的啊平常都是拉開的有人來稽查的時候說起來逃避被人稽查逃避被人檢舉這就是你要當一個大法官"},{"start":5782.083,"end":5804.016,"text":"對法律不了解：對自己家的財產這樣子輕放重放用這些業者去做違法的事情與憂相鳴要怎麼樣讓大家相信你是一個客觀中立的大法官呢你無法理解如果你自己本身就是違規的人了然後你說你要當大法官替我們全國人民主持正義誰會相信再來我們繼續往NCC走NCC當時剛也有很多人有問了"},{"start":5810.479,"end":5822.808,"text":"來我想請問你在鑑定人的評鑑報告裡面所說認為中天不應該取得換照的理由當時你的鑑定書上面的理由是什麼"},{"start":5824.678,"end":5848.298,"text":"我剛才講我是依據廣播電視法我說你的鑑定書的書面理由是什麼他有沒有違規的事項違規事項有多少那當然也包括正面的比如說他會有沒有互相你確實沒錯你說你說因為你做鑑定人的時候認為中天應該不能得到換照的原因第一個違規裁罰案件過多"},{"start":5850.404,"end":5873.576,"text":"那你當時擔任中天鑑定人的意見書裡面你說違規裁罰案件過多結果呢最後他們到行政法院裡面呢你認為你現在還認為他們的你現在還認同你當時的判斷嗎你認為他們以現在的狀況進到行政法院裡面去這麼多的案子最後都被行政法院判NCC敗訴這叫做違規裁罰過多嗎"},{"start":5875.663,"end":5893.605,"text":"我當時看到的情況是這樣子啊你當時看到的情況是這樣子但請問你有沒有每一個案子去審視說他到底有沒有違規那可能是當時NCC給的東西是錯誤的啊你作為一個大法官被提名人你當時你作為一個法律專家你沒有自己的意見NCC跟你講什麼就算什麼"},{"start":5894.366,"end":5917.526,"text":"你沒有覺得說他們提出的這些所謂的好像有違規的地方根本就沒違規你給出的意見書就是這樣要到行政人家行政法院裡面法官判下去的時候都知道沒有違規你做一個鑑定人的時候你看了所有的資料這個人家行政法官看的資料跟你看的資料是一樣的你就拼了說人家違規過多結果人家打到了行政法院的時候法院認為沒有問題"},{"start":5919.275,"end":5930.879,"text":"那你要怎麼讓大家相信你是公正客觀等於是你們直接這一群人這一伙人直接被行政法院打臉捏再來你還有另外一個意見書不換照的理由是什麼你記得嗎我不完全記得是不完全記得來我告訴你你認為報導特定政治人物比例過多"},{"start":5944.068,"end":5950.361,"text":"來,請問你當時的意見書裡面認為中天報導特定政治人物比例不過多的特定政治人物是哪一位?"},{"start":5951.814,"end":5977.916,"text":"為什麼這是你寫的東西耶不是啦我問的是你自己寫的東西你說108到109年之間中天新聞不當監理的事件有14件其中包括報導特定政治人物比例過多我問的是你寫下的這句話裡面所謂的報導特定人物政治人物是哪一位政治人物"},{"start":5978.973,"end":6003.035,"text":"我現在沒有辦法回答你現在沒有辦法回答你自己寫的東西你沒有辦法回答你是失意還怎麼樣當時有當時的時空背景當時有當時的時空背景但特定人物就那個啊因為你已經寫了是特定政治人物嘛所以就是有一個特定政治人物嘛我問你當時你所說的特定政治人物是誰嘛我現在還有1分36秒你不回答出來我們就這樣耗著特定政治人物是誰"},{"start":6004.141,"end":6027.068,"text":"我因為沒有記憶那麼清楚,我想我不應該...放那張投影片!左邊這個是你自己寫的,其中包括...或我再講一次,你不回答我們就這樣耗著沒關係其中包括中天新聞台報導特定政治人物比例過多我只不過問你,你當時所稱的特定政治人物是哪一位政治人物?"},{"start":6029.386,"end":6039.752,"text":"你怎麼樣?為什麼?那你哪幾個人?幾個人?你說嘛幾個人?哪幾個人?哪幾個特定政治人物?說啊!你就把他名字說出來嘛!你今天都在這個備詢台上為什麼這麼不勇敢呢?不要啦!所以你忘記了?好我問你是不是韓國瑜?"},{"start":6058.183,"end":6075.579,"text":"你是不是在指韓國瑜你不確定你寫了什麼你自己寫了一個鑑定書然後寫了特定政治人物當時大家在討論的所謂的特定政治人物在新聞報導上都是說你們認為特定報導韓國瑜太多然後你現在告訴我你寫的東西你自己不知道你是怎樣要不要去看個醫生你的記憶能力是不是有問題"},{"start":6082.641,"end":6082.781,"text":"謝謝徐委員"},{"start":6112.895,"end":6134.065,"text":"何新淳委員之詢問以書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請羅志強委員詢問主席有請備提名人我們請廖備提名人答詢"},{"start":6146.032,"end":6169.683,"text":"媽媽感到對不起成長過程中沒有盡到母親的責任但是還是很愛你請問廖教授你知道這句話誰說的嗎這是2022年發生的台版柬埔塞案一位被兇惡的詐欺集團虐死的黃姓婦人的遺言"},{"start":6171.138,"end":6171.738,"text":"你知道是誰說的嗎?我也不確定是誰說的"},{"start":6201.53,"end":6227.519,"text":"主張廢死對這些被害者完全都可以不確定這是那位被虐死的黃姓婦人的兒子他收到母親死訊之後收到母親遺言之後發出了痛苦悲鳴我想請問廖教授2022年的台版柬埔災案和黃姓婦人一樣被虐殺的總共幾個人"},{"start":6229.264,"end":6248.177,"text":"不好意思,我沒有辦法很精確地...你還是不知道一共三個人,三條人命那你知不知道,如果不是警方偵破﹖死的可能不只是三個人﹖是61個人嗎?你知道嗎?你還是不知道?"},{"start":6249.522,"end":6272.586,"text":"因為這個詐騙集團總共囚禁虐待了61個人有營救出來被害人說當他看到詐欺集團如此殘忍的虐待他們的時候也看到其他被囚禁的人一一被虐死的時候他們心中覺得我們再也不能見到我們親愛的家人了"},{"start":6274.417,"end":6296.394,"text":"你知道這些詐欺集團是怎麼虐殺被他們囚禁的受害人嗎?請問我們的廖教授你還是不知道我確實不知道謝謝你這些被害人被關在面積僅3平的房間38天只能坐著跟站著他們財務被收工、嘴塞、毛巾、上手銬、腳綁、束帶"},{"start":6298.786,"end":6318.143,"text":"他們被惦記、被毒打、他們被未毒讓他們昏睡好方便控制有被害人受不了這樣的凝虐從11樓跳下來死亡黃姓夫人就是前面講的那位被關了一個多月惦記、凝虐後吐血、哀求、肚子痛、未獲理財"},{"start":6319.204,"end":6336.758,"text":"大量出血、休克而亡．0性男子患慢性病、遭拘禁15日．雙腳壞死、發炎、皮膚浸潤．不能行走、大小便失禁．最後撞牆狂喊．我受不了了．被餵食3顆FM2心肌梗塞死亡．如果我用泯滅人性、上進天良．來形容這些兇惡的虐殺集團．你同意嗎?"},{"start":6346.092,"end":6372.738,"text":"是相當嚴重的犯罪但你還是主張廢除死刑所有的事你通通不知道這些人的痛苦、淫言、家屬的悲鳴被虐殺的所有情節你沒辦法感受吧我想這個應該我們社會都應該可以你沒辦法感受吧但是你可以非常冷靜的跟大家講你支持廢除死刑"},{"start":6373.985,"end":6393.126,"text":"我想請問廖教授這個案子後來怎麼判?我不確定他最後的判決結果是什麼?就在昨天你都要站在這邊要面對今天死刑你的廢死的態度昨天宣布免死確判這個兇惡詐欺集團囚禁"},{"start":6396.616,"end":6416.997,"text":"60億人虐殺3人、詐騙267人所不法所的3億元和新幹部S姐查董一、二審判無期上訴最高法院駁回定讞免死確判如你所願這些泯滅人性的人上進天堂的殺人犯都免死確判我再問教授"},{"start":6418.171,"end":6447.132,"text":"同樣昨天新竹市正義輪胎行的縱火案陳姓嫌犯在民國111年6月縱火致凶殺死他的母親、妻子、三名子女、妹妹、大嫂、子女共八名家人喪命你知道一審判決是死刑但是經過上訴二審高層法院判決是什麼我好像是變無期徒刑是不是對也是昨天無期徒刑"},{"start":6448.254,"end":6473.568,"text":"大嫂的母親林姓夫人說自己側夜難眠哭到眼睛看不清她沒有辦法相信沒有辦法接受大嫂家屬悲鳴因為被害死的人不是你的家人講廢死不是你們執政者說了算最有資格是我們被害者家屬因為你們沒有同理心你們根本得不配為你覺得這句話是不是說給您聽的"},{"start":6475.617,"end":6491.965,"text":"你覺得最有資格說Face是被害者家屬不是你你沒有同理心被害者家屬的悲憫你聽到了嗎你沒聽到我從我剛問的問題說到現在問題答案都是不知道來再問你喔20"},{"start":6496.076,"end":6521.743,"text":"我殺的人比鄭捷多我破了台灣的紀錄希望判我死刑如果不判我死刑我出去繼續殺人你知道這句話誰說的嗎我沒有那麼完整的記錄還是不知道不知道大法官2019年台南獄警縱火案燒死7人徵信凶犯說的他自豪啊鄭捷不過殺7人我燒死7個人我比他還厲害"},{"start":6524.755,"end":6552.975,"text":"那教授你知道判決的結果嗎?你說這個個案?這個案子我不敢隨意的說因為我沒有那個信息你還是不知道?上個月27號免死確判張教授你知道今年的12月3日是什麼日子嗎?如果以我的來說的話他可能是身心障礙者是國際日是施朵甲女教師被虐殺10週年的忌日"},{"start":6553.871,"end":6579.6,"text":"你一樣不會記得啦因為跟你沒關係被殺的不是你的家屬若是被害者的家屬他不會忘掉這一天那你知道判決結果是什麼嗎劉姓凶犯多次被判處死刑等了10年等到救星了大法官來了大法官作出實質廢死的憲法判決劉姓凶犯免死確判"},{"start":6581.138,"end":6608.225,"text":"那你知道這個凶犯這個凶殺案是誰被判無期徒刑?誰被判無期徒刑?我剛剛講的施朵甲女老師的凶殺案誰被判無期徒刑你知道嗎?我告訴你是被害者的家屬被害者的丈夫流性凶犯判的無期徒刑關25年還可以假釋被害者的丈夫說這個判決真的受無期徒刑宣判的是家屬"},{"start":6609.522,"end":6610.523,"text":"你知道嗎你知道嗎你知道"},{"start":6637.701,"end":6658.495,"text":"最高法院怎麼告訴大家為什麼前面都判死最後免死啊因為依據大法官憲法第8號判決意旨依據這個實質廢死的判決他免死卻判了一輩子坐獄陰柴善良正直的一個女老師他還從此冤成大海再也沒有伸張正義的機會"},{"start":6667.296,"end":6687.465,"text":"這位兇犯就是隨機盯上這位買菜的女老師啊用鐵鎚重擊她信心咬壞她的身體然後虐殺她但是呢大法官是他的救星我要跟教授說我前面說的這四個案子通通免死"},{"start":6695.731,"end":6720.663,"text":"通通都是在大法官做出實質廢除判決之後才開始做出免死的判決這些案子你通通不知道但是你非常心安理得跟大家講說廢除死刑啊你支持廢除死刑啊我從前面的質詢跟看到你的書面回答你也認同大法官的憲法第8號判決吧 對不對"},{"start":6723.041,"end":6744.33,"text":"我個人認為他這個憲法第8條判決的話因為叫憲法法庭的判決是你認同嗎?三個字那麼難答我告訴你我拜託你你認同這個實質廢死判決你主張廢除死刑有兩句話我建議你"},{"start":6746.223,"end":6772.873,"text":"你把這兩句話媽媽感到對不起你成長過程中沒有盡到母親的責任但還是很愛你我們母子倆度過顛沛流離度過饑寒交迫度過別離再相聚卻度不過詐騙集團的凌虐時節你把這兩句話一個亡死者跟亡死的家屬你每天晚上睡前默念三遍你再去睡覺吧"},{"start":6776.308,"end":6803.759,"text":"你知道為什麼你可以這麼坦坦然心無掛懷、掛念的跟我講你主張廢除死刑跟我講你認同大法官實質廢死的判決我告訴你為什麼因為你前面已經告訴你通通不知道這些人的傷、這些人的痛、這些人的冤、這些人的苦你沒有一個知道你到現在為止你沒有一個知道你當然可以這麼淡然說"},{"start":6805.438,"end":6806.719,"text":"目前為止看起來不是一個冤獄我得了邀請的基本的概念是這樣子來來來目前法務部在對於"},{"start":6832.613,"end":6856.02,"text":"這個政協執行定業執行死刑的時候你怎麼對媒體說的你痛批今天法務部他應該要再審非常上述或四線的程序才能執行死刑以避免冤獄啊你認為當時的部長根本亂來有人要告羅英雪是你講的吧"},{"start":6857.761,"end":6884.506,"text":"因為即使一個判決之後的話他還是有後面的救濟程度很好啊你剛跟我講你認為不是冤獄啊但是那時候你認為是冤獄啊縱目睽睽向犯案4條寶貴的生命無理由的提早結束24個人一輩子受傷的人留下終生的陰影人生共怒的一個罪行三審定焉"},{"start":6886.069,"end":6910.789,"text":"你竟然可以用冤獄來去想要幫他開脫你到現在還是認為我們不該執行死刑不該判政協死刑嗎判決死刑以及執行死刑我問你啦沒關係我分開問你現在還是覺得不該執行死刑嗎執行死刑不是說不一定以我們的法律規定當時應該可以執行死刑的只是說執行死刑 廖教授啊"},{"start":6912.793,"end":6933.219,"text":"我剛剛前面聽徐曉欣在質詢我很難過從頭到尾無言以對你是今天廢死聯盟的重要成員你到現在為這兩個這麼簡單的問題你答不出來難道你會心心念念想要通過大法官提名你就答不出來"},{"start":6935.708,"end":6958.886,"text":"我再問你一次鄭捷被判死刑你支持嗎答不出來他就是判決死刑的一個狀態嘛對啊就是你現在的法律制度跟未來的法律制度就廢除死刑或與否的話是在我們在思考未來我們的法律制度會怎麼樣比較好我已經看你已經講了20秒了答不出來"},{"start":6965.219,"end":6994.421,"text":"答不出來政協服務法後換民進黨執政廖教授你擔任過廢除死刑推動聯盟的執行委員法務部逐步廢死推動小組成員吧沒錯吧是長年來推動廢死到這邊來講話模模糊糊沒有關係我想請問你喔你知道這8年多來法院總共審理多少名殺人犯判了多少名死刑執行了幾名"},{"start":6997.233,"end":7016.466,"text":"據此判多少個殺人犯或那個還是不知道啦沒關係啦還是不知道啦八年多七百多名殺人犯只有判兩名被執行並被執行等於每350名殺人犯出現超過350位被害人才會判一個死刑"},{"start":7017.554,"end":7044.523,"text":"然後相較於2000年到2015年平均每年有3.25位三審判死2016年5月民進黨執政後平均每年只有0.22位三審判死每年判死的人數減少93%你蠻有成績的,真的在逐步廢死然後大法官的8號判決還說判死要更嚴格過去大法官是不敢判死"},{"start":7046.07,"end":7074.117,"text":"現在大法官的判決出來就是難以判死所以他馬上短短期間4件案子全部是免死判死了以後要再重來一遍喔沒錯吧是有些案子是可能在這個程序委齋大法官啊照這樣趨勢啊我直接跟你斷言啦我斷言好幾次了我希望你推翻我賴總統任內一件三審判死都不會有一件死刑都不會執行你相不相信"},{"start":7075.851,"end":7104.237,"text":"我個人沒辦法做預測沒有關係我告訴你我們就等著看只是剩3年了啦我怎麼等著看然後你在這邊前面答詢你說大法官沒有實質廢死你說得出口我問你喔今天有一個人他去參加射箭比賽那你剛剛講說你是射箭比賽的那個評鑑委員說沒問題我們任何人都可以參加射箭比賽"},{"start":7105.342,"end":7122.631,"text":"但是你必須兩隻手砍斷你再去參加射箭比賽那我說你剝奪實質剝奪我參加射箭的機會我說沒有啊我准你參加射箭比賽啊只是你不准帶兩隻手進去啊什麼叫做實質廢死這樣還不叫實質廢死什麼叫實質廢死請問他說死刑合憲但定了18羅漢同仁證死刑現在要判已經很難了"},{"start":7136.607,"end":7165.407,"text":"大法官憲法判決之後馬上就活生生的好幾個案子就改判了然後我再醒覺一下大法官的憲法判決出來之後很多都用不是犯罪情節最嚴重的情況用這個理由啊改判了嘛對不對是有的是終於啊你終於有個知道了中山智陽徐偉展多次性侵傷害女乘客犯罪情節是不是最嚴重"},{"start":7166.906,"end":7190.911,"text":"我幫你回答你不知道張南寶殺害同居女友母親同居人姦殺80歲老婦算不算情節罪人之罪我幫你回答啦你不知道那你要插嘴可以啦你不知道吧是不是能我說明剛才我說明就是說現在我們情況應該是兩個重點第一個所謂犯罪最嚴重的情況的話我只問你是不是嘛"},{"start":7194.893,"end":7216.089,"text":"劉龍山強姦一位檳榔稀屍後活生生用火燒他的下體跟臉部再用鐵錘打到腦漿外衣後焚屍你也答不出來了劉華坤刑竊不存殺害網咖女老師並監屍連受害了年僅6歲的孩子也不放過把他吊死在醫處裡面"},{"start":7217.898,"end":7219.88,"text":"我上面舉例的就是這37位被死刑判決定讞現在在你口中贏得改判機會的37位囚犯"},{"start":7244.841,"end":7273.11,"text":"這些被大法官實質廢死判決出來以後這37個人等到了究刑就是跟你一樣想要廢死的大法官廖教授你還曾經在2016年這個《刑法修正適同處死刑或無期徒刑爭議公聽會》當中表示終身監禁不得假釋的刑罰不值得考慮 對不對"},{"start":7274.582,"end":7301.57,"text":"我剛才說了就是當天的公聽會他有特定的修法的方向你有沒有說過終身監禁不得假設刑法不值得考慮當天的情境之下就對於殺害兒童自己特定的犯罪要教授我告訴你你不只主張廢除死刑啊現在社會上有用誰無期徒刑終身監禁來取代死刑的議論"},{"start":7303.206,"end":7326.629,"text":"你連無期徒刑、終身監禁你都不贊成我真的想要問的問題是非常多但是我沒有辦法我時間是不夠我真的時間不夠我要跟廖教授說剛剛徐曉新質詢你的財產你到處違規自己的自律做不好張啟凱質詢你李柏道的霸凌案你站在霸凌者的一方"},{"start":7327.793,"end":7342.058,"text":"然後呢楊瓊玉質詢你NCC關新聞台NCC是新聞自由的筷子手但是你是鑑定人你親自送上屠刀現在死刑你站在加害人這一邊你是盧志強你脫得下去嗎謝謝你好謝謝羅委員謝謝貝提米人報告"},{"start":7358.311,"end":7383.958,"text":"下一位．智偉委員．詢問．書面提出．列入紀錄．刊登公報報告全院委員會．對大法官．被提名人．廖福特．詢答部分．到此為止謝謝廖被提名人．福特列席答詢報告全院委員會．休息5分鐘．休息之後繼續進行．對大法官．被提名人．劉靜怡之詢問．現在休息"},{"start":7752.984,"end":7767.222,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行審查大法官被提名人劉靜怡之資格及是否事任相關事項現在請被提名人劉靜怡女士說明時間10分鐘"},{"start":7776.116,"end":7793.574,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生我是劉靜怡很榮幸今天有這個機會因為總統的提名能以大法官被提名人的身份在立法院接受各位的審查除了先前提供給立法院的詳細資料之外我以下會跟各位委員做一個簡單的口頭報告"},{"start":7795.416,"end":7819.41,"text":"我出生並成長於蘭陽庭園：一直到18歲復籍臺北就讀臺大法律系：我的父母在家鄉分別終身奉獻於國中和國小的教職工作：他們給我們姊弟三人一個良好的教育環境跟成長環境：我深信父母所期望的是希望我們能夠成為具有獨立判斷力、正直無私：而且能夠將專業知識貢獻給社會國家的知識分子："},{"start":7822.452,"end":7850.841,"text":"我在大學以前的求學過程受到擔任歷史老師的父親啟發和多位老師的影響對於人文社會科學領域的學習興趣較濃進入台大法律系之後以及在法研所的就讀期間受到當時多位教授跟台灣民主化的社會氛圍影響對於民主憲政與人權相關的國內外理論和社會爭議開始有所涉獵尤其是法研所期間受到當時幾位公法老師"},{"start":7851.701,"end":7877.538,"text":"的啟發所以除了更進一步理解德日大陸法系公法的嚴謹體系之外對於美國公法的展現內容跟方法取向也產生了探索興趣我和言論自由、新聞自由、通訊傳播相關的法律跟政策的研究結下不解之緣也是在這段期間這也是我日後以科技法律相關的規範與人權議題作為終身研究資質的種子"},{"start":7879.76,"end":7898.34,"text":"當時父母希望我從事司法實務工作：我也在法研所期間通過司法官特考筆試跟口試：但是因為在林子怡教授指導下撰寫碩士論文的時候有幸考取公費留學考試：加上自己向來保持濃厚的學術探索興趣：所以就放棄成為司法官的搜尋機會："},{"start":7899.881,"end":7916.958,"text":"在法研所畢業之後立刻赴美留學我的留美時期歷經哈佛法學院跟芝加哥大學法學院兩所大學最後在1997年3月完成以網際網路為主題的法學博士論文那是一個當時尚屬少見的網路法論文主題"},{"start":7917.839,"end":7941.616,"text":"在留美將近4年的過程當中﹐除了多位教授協助我奠定在網路法、人權法、憲法和美國公法等領域的法學知識之外﹐我的指導教授經常提醒我﹐應該不斷訓練自己發問﹐應該學會以不畏多數壓力﹐而且不媚俗的態度﹐深入且廣泛地累積自己的學術能量跟創造力。20多年前的學術基礎訓練﹐"},{"start":7942.957,"end":7970.761,"text":"養成了我不斷提醒自己在知識的吸取跟學術研究上必須既專精且深入而且必須開闊多元的習慣同時應該與熱切了心但冷靜的腦分析爭議跟尋求橫貧解決之道這不僅是我在法學研究生涯當中的基本信念跟堅持也是我在專業生涯早期參與國際網際網路組織ICANN創建時期的奠基工作時以及目前擔任"},{"start":7971.101,"end":7973.102,"text":"我相信這樣的態度習慣與堅持也是事先者應該具備的基本素質"},{"start":7989.246,"end":8007.458,"text":"我在1997年取得博士學位後開始教學生涯．主要的學術沾藏是科技．尤其是資訊科技有關的規範議題．分別從憲法、人權法．跟政府管制的角度進行研究．我先後任教於淡江大學大眾傳播系．資訊傳播系、中央大學產業經濟研究所．"},{"start":8008.298,"end":8028.363,"text":"並且在2004年轉任母校臺大社科院國發所．今年8月起獲聘為臺大特聘教授．目前也兼任所長的行政職務。在臺大已經滿20年的教學研究生涯當中．我除了在今年獲得國科會傑出研究獎的肯定之外．也曾獲得臺大教學傑出獎跟教學優良獎．"},{"start":8029.423,"end":8048.115,"text":"我在2015年到2020年期間﹐連續6年擔任兩任科技部法律學門共同召集人﹐隨後並在2021年跟2023年期間﹐擔任國科會法律學門召集人﹐對於法律學界的學術發展方向規劃﹐跟各項審查事務都盡了綿薄之力﹐"},{"start":8049.076,"end":8067.106,"text":"除此之外,我在2027-2013年之間曾經擔任數位典藏與數位學習國家型科技計畫下面的學術與社會應用推廣分享的分享召集人,協助政府推廣數位典藏跟數位學習的內容成果,深化他們在學術跟人文社會領域的運用。"},{"start":8069.027,"end":8087.541,"text":"除了教學研究的本業之外我過去20多年來曾經擔任過考試院、國科會、文件會、勞委會等機關的法會委員跟訴院委員也曾經擔任行政院消費者保護委員會的委員以及中央選舉委員會的委員對於政府應該如何發揮保護人民權利的職能"},{"start":8088.101,"end":8103.948,"text":"以及選務機關如何用公平公正而且獨立中立的基本精神有效辦理民主國家的選舉跟公投事宜都有涉獵對於我來說這些都是理解民主國家權力部門運作跟人民權力保障之間緊密關係的機會"},{"start":8105.729,"end":8130.545,"text":"另外我也積極參與釋憲申請的相關活動曾經擔任我國幾號重要大法官解釋的釋憲訴訟代理人並且參與法庭延遲辯論包括釋字689、613以及釋字603等解釋另外在釋字781、釋字11年憲判制13號跟11年憲判制1號裡面也都擔任過鑑定人的角色"},{"start":8132.643,"end":8147.117,"text":"我相信自己在長年以來在視線活動當中所扮演的角色已經盡力發揮了公法學者協助維繫民主憲政體制下人權保障跟權力分立制衡的價值這樣的功能"},{"start":8148.158,"end":8163.267,"text":"這些有助於民主憲政發展．跟人權深化的事現實戰經驗．大致上除了跟我個人的學術專長有關之外．主要是起源於我對言論自由、新聞自由．跟資訊隱私等等重要人權價值的堅持．"},{"start":8164.847,"end":8185.922,"text":"我除了曾經擔任臺灣人權促進會會長．執行委員．長達15年以上．以義務人權工作者的身份奉獻幾多時間．經歷．參加過爭取網路自由、集會遊行自由．政府資訊公開．反國民卡．反對強制全民按耐指紋換取身份證．健保資料庫跟基因資料庫的保護．"},{"start":8187.423,"end":8210.397,"text":"樂生療養院案、居住權、國際人權公約跟國家人權委員會．以及中國跟國際移民難民的個案協助等等倡議活動之外．我在其他公共事務參與方面．也曾經擔任臺灣法學會理事長．跟理監事、橙色社長．以及臺灣首富民主平台理事等社會團體的公益職務活動．"},{"start":8211.698,"end":8235.785,"text":"甚至也曾經應目前仍然囚禁於香港黑勞動當中的李智英先生的邀請．擔任臺灣醫傳媒集團倫理委員會的首任主委協助調解新聞自由與人權保障兩者間的衝突這些出於對臺灣社會長期貫切而來的義務社會參與是我用來理解臺灣社會各種現實面貌以補強專業知識的最難得養分"},{"start":8238.166,"end":8258.263,"text":"我非常感謝在過去20多年裡在各個社會運動領域和我一起為台灣的民主、憲政和人權價值奮鬥的社運界和學界夥伴他們是目前身為大法官被提名人的我多年來學習如何面對有權有勢者的最重要啟發者最後值得一提的是"},{"start":8259.184,"end":8272.879,"text":"我近年來在OECD國家所促成的重要政府間人工智慧國際組織G-PAY當中的專業工作我以來自國立台灣大學教授的個人身份獲得G-PAY會員國大會決議邀請擔任專家職務"},{"start":8275.382,"end":8286.811,"text":"截至目前為止﹐我仍然是GPAY唯一來自華語世界的專家﹐我除了擔任計畫主持人之外﹐也把台灣的人工智慧法治研究團隊﹐引進給國際社群認識﹐這個難得的國際組織經驗﹐也應該有助於我的視線工作﹐"},{"start":8294.057,"end":8308.806,"text":"將來可以精準掌握數位憲政主義下的憲政價值．跟人權保障的發展路徑．協助憲法法庭深入理解自己在人工智慧時代．如何善盡民主憲政與人權保障的基本價值．"},{"start":8309.867,"end":8331.473,"text":"在已經邁入第28年的教學研究生涯當中﹐我有幸深入探索數位資源跟知識的禁用﹐如何影響每個人的人格自由跟基本權利﹐我對科技人權議題的長期耕耘﹐將來必然會對事件工作當中的互相對話﹐說服跟折衝協調發揮影響力﹐"},{"start":8333.354,"end":8347.953,"text":"我在過去至今的學識過程裡面﹐對於知識與言論在民主社會當中所扮演的角色﹐向來有不宜的堅定信念﹐也深信法學界的知識分子應該不吝於參與各種公共事務﹐"},{"start":8349.415,"end":8373.775,"text":"才能夠有助於促成臺灣社會的憲政體系和人權文化持續不斷的發展跟深化我相信擔任市憲者的基本職責是落實憲法保障人民基本權利的最終意志身為公法學者我這樣子的人擔任大法官必將忠於個人身性的民主憲政跟人權保障基本理念發揮學術專長成為稱職而且無貴於心的憲法守護者"},{"start":8378.74,"end":8387.054,"text":"謝謝大家好 謝謝劉備提名人的說明現在進行委員詢問首先請林委員議軍詢問"},{"start":8418.993,"end":8422.194,"text":"主席好請提名人請劉備提名人答詢"},{"start":8434.554,"end":8455.132,"text":"首先我詳細看了你的個人簡介剛才也聽了你的口頭報告發現被提名的你其實是有曾經當任過臺灣人權促進會會長及執行的委員長達15年的時間你長期以義務人權工作者的身份參與各項爭取人權自由的社會運動對吧是"},{"start":8457.967,"end":8481.14,"text":"那很好我對於你積極參與公共的事務還有推動人權運動守護臺灣民主的熱忱還有這種勇氣其實是很欽佩的尤其是勇於對外發言和爭辯時事的勇氣好接下來我要請問一下提名人你在簡介中提及你很感謝過去20多年來在各種社會運動領域和你一起為臺灣民主憲政及人權價值奮鬥的社運的夥伴"},{"start":8486.863,"end":8515.361,"text":"你認為這些夥伴們是你多年來學習如何面對有權有勢者的重要啟發者對吧是我發現這幾年來的人權社會運動果然是讓我見識到參與社會的運動者什麼才是叫做真正的如何面對有權有勢者的向上管理的能力據說你是陳社生綠出身所以那你跟民進黨生綠高層關係真的很好"},{"start":8516.081,"end":8517.702,"text":"所以因為我從你這幾年的表現還有新聞上面披露的報導發現你為了向綠營執政的權力核心靠攏你的對外大炮的攻擊不論是面對當時的總統打菜"},{"start":8531.63,"end":8536.413,"text":"蔡英文執政時,為了給予向執政黨表態效忠．使出渾身解數．對當時擔任台大校長的管中銘．不斷地進行人身攻擊、造謠抹黑．果然是卡管有功．又因為過去曾公開批評過前總統蔡英文的論文抄襲問題．"},{"start":8561.59,"end":8561.61,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8588.278,"end":8605.912,"text":"舉例2017年的時候當時的蔡英文總統執政的時候你曾經痛批執政黨的前瞻基礎建設每年度都是舉債的額度不受公共債務法的限制你批評認為這根本就是嚴重的違憲危機和財政的危機2019年前總統"},{"start":8610.356,"end":8628.461,"text":"蔡英文身陷博士論文風波的時候那時候你還公開質疑博士論文的紙質的問題甚至還認為外來的論文不應該放在我國的國家圖書館網站的上面所以你覺得蔡英文的論文有問題你覺得有還是沒有"},{"start":8629.641,"end":8648.333,"text":"我想跟委員說明一下依照我們現行的辦法的確我們國圖的碩博士論文是收錄國內大學院校的碩博士論文不是收錄國外的大學院校的碩博士論文那你覺得他的論文有沒有問題"},{"start":8649.414,"end":8674.392,"text":"我從來沒有說過蔡總統的論文有問題因為我沒有任何的證據可以說他的論文有問題我想這個是一個報導上面的極大的誤解那我再問你新冠疫情的時候你也痛批現在的政務委員就是前衛福部長陳時中防疫不力那你覺得台灣的防疫做得不好嗎"},{"start":8675.433,"end":8693.154,"text":"台灣的防疫不能說做得不好但是身為一個長期的人權工作者我認為在防疫的同時應該顧及到人權的保障而當時有非常多的過於便宜形式的做法"},{"start":8693.735,"end":8713.602,"text":"其實是不恰當的我當時所提出來的建議是說我們應該在特別條例裡面有更嚴謹的法律的設計以便能夠保障人權那我相信這個幾乎現在已經成了各個國家在疫情之後的一個極大的共識"},{"start":8715.189,"end":8735.443,"text":"那在民進黨前新竹市長林智堅還有前國安局局長陳明通他們有陷入論文的抄襲的風波中那你也都砲轟痛刺所以那我想請問一下被提名人你現在還是身為臺大國發所的所長那你認為林智堅跟陳明通的論文是不是有抄襲的問題呢?"},{"start":8737.164,"end":8740.046,"text":"我想這個已經透過臺大的審定通過了我想這個臺大審定結果就是我的意見"},{"start":8748.772,"end":8776.628,"text":"今年5月30號你從上午到晚間連續發了7篇文嘛批評執政黨王毅川就是現在我們剛新上任的立委說他所利用基地台人流分析的行為知道太多那你轉接相關的新聞並且提出了8點質疑還人身攻擊說蠢到爆表的地步這真的是你的真心話嗎是這些都是我的真心話我身為一個長期研究資訊法治的學者"},{"start":8777.188,"end":8793.195,"text":"我認為我們在所謂的資料取得這方面的確有相當不充分的地方以至於有辦法取得資料的人有太多可以上下其手的機會這是不應該的這對整個國家的治理"},{"start":8794.8,"end":8814.416,"text":"政黨之間的公平競爭人民的隱私權保障都是不利的做法那你在黨產條例釋憲案中擔任專家學者提供鑑定的意見那你認為黨產條例規定不違反法律禁止所及既往的原則比例與原則所以你主張黨產條例合憲對吧是"},{"start":8817.773,"end":8819.034,"text":"報告委員我想我是一個從來都沒有特定政府政黨黨籍的人"},{"start":8847.128,"end":8867.285,"text":"我所有的評論基本上都是根據我作為一個法學研究者身為一個知識分子所提出來的對於每一個個案的見解這些所謂的貼文或這些見解事實上在我被提名大法官之後我一則都沒有刪"},{"start":8868.666,"end":8892.558,"text":"我呢所有的講法基本上都有一句我也對我所講過的每一句話每一個見解都負責那我覺得這樣子的基本特質其實呢對於一個即將擔任大法官的人來說其實是非常必要的因為呢大法官是需要根據法律獨立審判"},{"start":8893.718,"end":8904.728,"text":"根據憲法保障人民權利的意志．不管執政者是誰．不管誰在朝誰在野．都必須要努力的監督他們．"},{"start":8907.386,"end":8926.137,"text":"我發現你的個人的理想性非常的強烈那你的個人心證是非常的鮮明的所以我想請教一下就是未來如果你擔任大法官的時候依照你這樣的個性肯定會按耐不住還是會想要不斷的想要對外發言那你還是會堅持當自己繼續對外發言嗎"},{"start":8927.858,"end":8928.819,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8946.583,"end":8965.88,"text":"講了太多話基本上會有不當揭露心證的問題所以呢這些問題我將來呢如果當了大法官之後我會避免我必須要承認的是說從我的養成過程裡面我的確有自己的價值取向跟基本信仰"},{"start":8966.981,"end":8990.228,"text":"但是呢當了大法官之後這些價值取向跟基本信仰就像我回給每一個黨團的問卷裡面所說的都必須要在呢我國的憲政秩序跟憲法所保障的各式各樣的基本價值跟人權理念底下呢去重新做一個過濾跟彙整"},{"start":8993.786,"end":9009.063,"text":"必須要用合乎我國憲政秩序跟基本價值理念的方式去展現出來所以這是一個必須要清楚的讓自己變成一個適當的憲法法庭"},{"start":9010.063,"end":9013.645,"text":"那我再請問一下就是你認為在那麼多深綠的人權運動還有台獨的運動的前面面前你自己何德何能能夠被賴清的總統"},{"start":9031.317,"end":9048.863,"text":"提名擔任大法官．這是不是你面對的有權有勢的向上管理．被酬庸的呢．否則依照你的學經歷．還有覺得自己有學術上面權威的地位．還有傲人的資格足以擔任大法官一職呢"},{"start":9049.973,"end":9075.351,"text":"我要跟委員報告的是說我其實從來沒有對賴清德總統有任何的向上管理我跟他唯一的接觸其實就是說真正這個官方的接觸大概有以下幾點第一個是以前賴總統在擔任民進黨的立法委員的時候當時台灣人權促進會"},{"start":9078.193,"end":9102.432,"text":"發起一個所謂的反全民按耐指紋領身份證的這樣的一個運動當時我跟顧立雄律師李念祖律師三個人擔任過由賴總統他們的立法院裡面的少數立委所發起的一個釋憲案我在那個案子裡面擔任呢"},{"start":9104.32,"end":9126.742,"text":"訴訟代理人而當時基本上對抗的其實呢就是民進黨的行政院那另外一個呢有過接觸的我想這個是可能是賴總統很難過的經驗我不知道就是呢他在擔任"},{"start":9127.944,"end":9142.083,"text":"行政院院長期間大概就是2016年、17年、18年那段時間那個委員你可以看一下我其實對賴總統的施政當時行政院的施政其實有非常多的批評"},{"start":9144.185,"end":9160.742,"text":"我不知道賴總統為什麼提名我但是我想他對於我這兩件事情大概印象很深刻吧另外就像剛剛我所報告的我向來都是以科技人權議題作為我的研究領域"},{"start":9162.043,"end":9183.584,"text":"我向來也非常忠於我自己的專業知識另外就是說我最近幾年其實對於人工智慧的國際組織的參與可能比較多一點這個其實是現在台灣社會不管是公部門或者是私部門都非常需要的"},{"start":9184.224,"end":9205.087,"text":"所以或許是這樣的原因但是我無法預測也無法猜測謝謝那你剛才說到你是AI人工智慧的法學專家那我想問一下就是AI成為認知作戰的利器請問一下你個人對於最近中共在接"},{"start":9206.589,"end":9215.138,"text":"兩次聯合歷屆軍演期間．有消息指出．國台辦指導在陸的臺親及陸籍人士．在臉書上面頻繁創建異常帳號．還有多組社團．對臺進行認知戰．"},{"start":9222.026,"end":9238.994,"text":"近3個月以來發現有154組的臉書帳號及40組的社團有明顯的異常的態樣那因屬於集團式的操作那你個人如何看待這個國安問題呢因為我們的國安單位到現在還不願意對外公開證實"},{"start":9240.735,"end":9253.725,"text":"是的,我想這不僅是台灣的國安問題而已對全世界每一個國家尤其是處在對抗威權體制的第一線國家來說基本上都是嚴重的問題"},{"start":9256.685,"end":9284.536,"text":"這些事情的確都存在國際上也有很多的機構在合作處理這樣的事情我覺得我們的國安單位或許可以更積極一點來處理這樣的事情不過在這裡我想必須要提醒大家的事尤其提醒立法院的事要處理這些問題基本上都不免會涉及到人民的基本權利保障的事"},{"start":9285.316,"end":9286.096,"text":"法律保留原則"},{"start":9303.444,"end":9317.654,"text":"法律明確性原則等等等這些基本的要求來檢視這樣子的立法跟措施我想這個就是一個立法部門或者是政治部門的一個"},{"start":9319.334,"end":9334.299,"text":"政策形成空間的問題以後大法官能夠把關的就是到底在所謂的公共利益的保護跟人民權利的保護上面應該如何做成適當的平衡跟協調"},{"start":9335.359,"end":9357.864,"text":"好那照你剛才這樣講那現在AI的技術確實是一個產業還有為大家生活帶來很多的便利但是同時也是一個雙面刃所以AI技術加速新型犯罪與認知作戰那你如果說像請教一下就是如果中共用AI對台灣認知作戰這樣你會不會擔心呢"},{"start":9358.664,"end":9384.539,"text":"我想我是擔心的我是擔心的但是我要更加的強調就是說這樣子的作戰如何去反抗或如何呢進一步的去反擊基本上呢必須要有立法部門跟行政部門的共同我剛才講的這些就是說但你會覺得說這樣是不是有跟中國有一點裡應外合的嫌疑還是我們台灣根本沒有能力查出來呢依照你的專業"},{"start":9386.46,"end":9401.517,"text":"我覺得台灣並不是沒有能力查出來但是因為科技變化得太快所以有時候不管立法部門或行政部門沒有辦法真正跟得上"},{"start":9402.838,"end":9428.255,"text":"再加上立法部門跟行政部門之間的共識可能不是很高所以其實就變得更加的困難至於有沒有理運外合這些事情我覺得就必須要看我們的法律我們的政策上面要怎麼樣界定這些事不管如何如果要處罰的話Again 我要講的是說必須要有清楚的法律來做這樣的處理"},{"start":9431.557,"end":9449.689,"text":"我們在保護國家的同時可能也沒有辦法去冤枉任何一個台灣中華民國的國民說他如何如何必須要有清楚的法律才能夠界定基本上誰是有問題的誰應該受到什麼樣的處罰"},{"start":9452.675,"end":9473.945,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教一下就是你對廢除死刑究竟是支持還是反對請明確的表態跟委員報告我曾經擔任過臺灣人權促進會的會長我呢到目前為止我個人的理念向來都是呢我們應該走向一個沒有死刑的國家"},{"start":9475.969,"end":9493.802,"text":"但是因為憲判制第8號其實已經做了死刑核限的判決雖然我個人對於這個死刑核限的判決感到非常的遺憾但是也覺得裡面還有一些沒有講清楚的地方"},{"start":9495.443,"end":9517.408,"text":"應該要處理的地方比如說呢我在問卷回答裡面特別強調的我們這個國家這麼多年來想要廢除死刑甚至政府部門也做了一些努力但是呢非常可惜的是我們在被害人保護的這個部分做得不夠好不夠多"},{"start":9519.144,"end":9540.95,"text":"包括被害人家屬如何參加訴訟程序獲得一個舒緩我覺得這個部分都是做得不夠好的事實上我過去在社運圈裡面在處理廢死的相關議題的時候我們也花了很多的力氣跟被害人跟被害人家屬"},{"start":9541.85,"end":9570.449,"text":"以及政府部門做了非常多的溝通跟倡議的工作我們現在僅有的這些法律規定保護被害人家屬的法律規定坦白講很多都是我們在民間團體的時候去倡議出來的那我覺得政府應該負擔更多立法部門應該負擔更多保護被害人家屬的工作"},{"start":9571.656,"end":9572.957,"text":"有關今年9月20號大法官釋憲113年的憲判制"},{"start":9589.727,"end":9610.296,"text":"第8號的判決主文．裡面有認為各種法院的合議庭的法官．如苛處此刑的判決應處於一致決．那這理由是說明在國民法官案件中．是指職業法官一致決．也就是不包括素人法官．我想聽聽看你這樣對這個有什麼看法"},{"start":9610.996,"end":9611.597,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":9637.607,"end":9663.88,"text":"謝謝被提名人接下來請郭育晴委員詢問好,有請劉靜怡大法官我們請被提名人答詢"},{"start":9671.325,"end":9692.14,"text":"有大法官早安我想憲法法庭跟大法官存在的一個意義這個部分等一下會請您再來說明一下我想憲法法庭作為憲法保障機制的一個核心那它的運作其實是依據憲法訴訟法的第一條審理以下類型的一些案件"},{"start":9692.76,"end":9693.241,"text":"內政部特別申請"},{"start":9714.944,"end":9731.929,"text":"就是宣告政黨解散的一個首例就是統促黨那是因為針對這個統促黨涉嫌收受7400萬介入台灣的大選那在這個檢查機關他們已經依照反滲透法來做這樣子的一個起訴"},{"start":9732.728,"end":9761.485,"text":"那他還不只是介入我們的大選那同時在這個15年來高達有134人他們的組織的成員也涉入了多起的刑案危及國家的一些安全那麼包含不管是這個違反國安法、反滲透法、總統罷免法其中有8案有牽扯11人從民國99年一直到113年之間他們也涉及了很多的刑案包含殺人"},{"start":9762.325,"end":9768.89,"text":"包含強盜、包含跨國人口販運等等所以依照這樣子的一個政黨法的一個查處"},{"start":9769.758,"end":9792.144,"text":"所以申請憲法法庭將其作決算我為什麼特別舉這個例子因為其實就是想要來凸顯也請我們的劉大法官也來說明一下關於所謂的憲法法庭的角色是不是能夠充分擔起保障憲法權威以及維護人民權利的一個職責"},{"start":9793.564,"end":9811.391,"text":"那我們的核心價值還有我們在憲政體制當中的獨特的一個功能應該要如何體現那作為所謂的憲法法庭的成員那大法官在審理上述我剛剛所說的這些案件當中又要怎麼樣來體現所謂的憲法守護者的一個角色發揮應有的影響力"},{"start":9815.269,"end":9831.824,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想委員剛剛提到的政黨解散的個案因為未來有可能進入憲法法庭基於司法倫理的要求以及大法官不能夠"},{"start":9832.805,"end":9858.692,"text":"提早過度揭露新證的這些基本的原則呢我想呢我就不針對個案來做回答但是它事實上呢就是我們憲法裡面以及呢憲法訴訟法裡面還有呢政黨法裡面所說的政黨解散案件政黨違憲解散案件那政黨違憲解散案件基本上就是必須要符合政黨的目的或行為基本上危害"},{"start":9859.172,"end":9859.532,"text":"《憲法訴訟法》"},{"start":9889.19,"end":9914.999,"text":"在任何情況底下都會被受理大家可以看得到我們每年大法官做成的案件其實判決是有限的那就表示說人民申請案件必須要有憲法重要性必須要是貫徹基本權利所必要而且經過審查庭跟憲法法院的裁定受理之後才會進入程序所以換句話說憲法法院是一個非常特殊的一個救濟程序"},{"start":9916.781,"end":9927.3,"text":"這也是憲法法院對一個國家的維護民主制度、民主憲政制度跟維護人權保障最重要、最特殊的地方"},{"start":9928.666,"end":9949.507,"text":"那我想接下來其實因為今天時間的關係我想憲法法庭跟大法官最終的目的其實是服務人民我想這是絕對沒有任何疑義的那為了要確保這個不受到人民的應該是說不受到違憲行為的一些侵害我們才會訴諸所謂的這個憲法法庭"},{"start":9950.248,"end":9974.574,"text":"那才能夠得到就是人民他所謂的這個正義的最後的一道防線其實就是憲法法庭很多人可能不知道說原來我們的憲法法庭申請的案件其實96.69%都是跟人民請願案有非常大的一個關係但是就剛剛其實大法官您特別提到其實整個所有最後成案能夠判決下來其實"},{"start":9975.754,"end":9995.748,"text":"那個機率其實承案率或者是說到最後其實那個機率其實是有一定的程序其實也不是很高但是我們就用113年的憲判字號的類型我們來做一下例子從第1號到第11號其中在今年的5月就是第6號"},{"start":9996.809,"end":10024.083,"text":"就是消防警察人員他們的考試升高的限制案當然憲法法庭認為這個現行對於所謂的這個警校人員他們升高在規定的部分排除了男性的部分是10%但是卻排除了55%的這個55%的一個女性這個對於女性的這個應考人員其實是不公平的那這個部分其實也是宣判是違憲的"},{"start":10025.063,"end":10037.348,"text":"那另外呢第7號就是我們看到這個中小學的代理教師之前的年資提敘案這個部分呢其實我們也是宣判他是違憲的那最主要的就是"},{"start":10038.564,"end":10063.036,"text":"以目前教育部由各個縣市政府自行製定補充的相關法令一年內當中教育部應該要重新來做修正也就是說將來只要有合格的教師證的代理老師他其實都有機會在他之前的年資要提續不會因為他轉換到其他的學校他前面所有的年資要重新來做計算"},{"start":10063.956,"end":10085.871,"text":"這樣是不公平的那這個部分其實我們的憲法法庭也做出了一些判決所以其實96.69%都是跟人民的請願有關也就是說最後都會是人民他在自立救濟當中的最後一道防線我們要成為人民的一個後盾那面對這個人民申請案的比例這麼高的一個狀況之下"},{"start":10087.252,"end":10091.396,"text":"謝謝委員提問如果從我們憲法法庭的發展史來看其實在憲法訴訟法修正之後其實人民的權力救濟的案子的確增加很多"},{"start":10116.876,"end":10144.032,"text":"可是在事件實務上面因為憲法法庭的資源有限所以大法官在選案的時候就非常的重要委員所提到的這些案子其實都是大法官在審查庭選案之後的結果然後經過全院的大法官決定要受理之後才有辦法進入實質的審查程序當然選案的時候就必須要看"},{"start":10144.992,"end":10166.923,"text":"到底這個案子的爭議對於人民權利的保障到底重要性有多高的問題那我必須要講的是我們的憲法法院其實到目前為止資源都是相當不足的不管是大法官的研究資源的配置或者是助理"},{"start":10167.81,"end":10191.298,"text":"大法官有助理,或者是大法官呢,書記處的,現在不是叫書記處的一些資源配置,我覺得都還有相當大的一個強化的空間。那當然這個部分呢,就必須要有賴未來司法院跟立法院一起在預算上面能夠合作跟努力。"},{"start":10194.06,"end":10217.859,"text":"我會認為說一個國家如果真正要變成現代的民主憲政國家他的憲法法院的現代化是非常重要的他的憲法法院能夠真的受到人民的尊重這是非常重要的事情更重要的是一個憲法法院的效率"},{"start":10219.32,"end":10245.972,"text":"也是非常重要的事情我們過去曾經有很長的一段時間是處在三分之二、三分之二的那個情況底下所以有非常多的我套據前任司法院副院長蘇永青先生蘇永青老師的講法就是所以製造了非常多的死案那這些死案長期放在那個地方其實會導致人民"},{"start":10247.073,"end":10249.596,"text":"所以我想這個部分其實就是必須要有賴大家一起努力的地方謝謝"},{"start":10263.092,"end":10282.394,"text":"因為在112年憲法法庭總共受理了2876件的一個申請案件那當然我剛剛講96.69%其實都是跟人民的這個申請訴願案是有關的那接下來其實比較嚴重的問題這個就是在野黨的他們提出了憲法訴訟法當中的這個修正草案"},{"start":10283.117,"end":10306.733,"text":"那要把所謂的大法官的人數的規定從現有的總額修正成所謂的法定的總額那剛剛有特別提到這個三分之二如果將這個裁判作為門檻提高至法定總額的三分之二會不會直接影響到人民基本權的一個保障我們舉例來講在現有總額都有可能成為比方說像是9票對6票"},{"start":10308.132,"end":10329.74,"text":"8票對7票就是大概有這樣子就是讓案件無法通過的一個狀況之下如果再把門檻提高到所謂的法定總額那其實是不是也就徒增了人民他們在自立救濟當中他們的權益的受損甚至於是導致變成他們想要溯源的一種障礙呢"},{"start":10330.452,"end":10355.589,"text":"好,我想我跟委員報告一下就是有關於貴院在憲法訴訟法的修正上面我想呢,基於權力分立跟制衡的原則作為司法者,未來的司法者基本上呢,我基本上就是先尊重貴院的政治部門之間的協調看看你們能夠修出什麼樣的法律來這個部分呢,我不辨智慧"},{"start":10356.289,"end":10377.883,"text":"不過我們現在的憲法訴訟的制度改成憲有總額的這個部分其實跟我剛剛說的過去很難做成違憲判決甚至也很難做成合憲判決以至於沒有辦法保護人民的權益的這個歷史發展其實是有關係的"},{"start":10379.344,"end":10397.36,"text":"所以如果要把法律修正成這樣子的狀況的話那我認為應該要有好的配套的制度或措施來確保憲法法庭的實質運作可能性不要損及憲法賦予司法權的司法自主性"},{"start":10398.081,"end":10424.102,"text":"或者去防害到大法官職權的行使因為大法官職權的行使是我們司法權相當核心的領域這個是不應該被限制的因為這個在實務的一個運作上面其實等於也增加了一般人民他們的基本權的一個侵害我認為如果這樣子做的話會導致憲法法庭的效率大幅的降低"},{"start":10424.462,"end":10452.684,"text":"因為還有一種可能就是在現行的一個制度之下其實光是利益迴避就是迴避這件事情其實也會發生在憲法法庭身上所以往往因為迴避的問題我們的人數的部分其實也會導致也會有影響所以這個在理論上如果要修法的話我當然沒有辦法在這邊提出具體的建議如果有迴避的問題的話就必須要在憲法訴訟法的修法過程當中做一個適當的處理那我要強調的是說"},{"start":10454.565,"end":10455.687,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10472.162,"end":10475.947,"text":"我都相信所有的國會修法都是基於善意而來的我們也希望是這樣我們希望都是這個樣子"},{"start":10488.393,"end":10506.699,"text":"那再來就是我想請教一下就是身為女性的大法官我們是如何看待這個兒少性侵害的案件這個追溯期的一個部分我舉個例子來講我相信這個25年過去了那這位受害者呢他現在是32歲"},{"start":10508.283,"end":10523.381,"text":"事件發生的時候他當年才7歲那他當年7歲呢好不容易現在32歲他可能也許在社會上在工作上他有一定的一個自我自我認知的一個意識他想要回過頭來勇敢的站出來來對"},{"start":10525.203,"end":10554.669,"text":"曾經對他加害人的親戚來做提告的一個動作但是也很無奈的就是說當時在1999年的時候他的刑法還沒有修訂當時的追溯期限只有20年那也就是說以當時的20年到他能夠在2019年的8月底這個才是他的能夠追溯的範圍但因為他今年才站出來所以導致"},{"start":10555.265,"end":10560.211,"text":"他想要得到遲來的正義都有可能會永遠看不到"},{"start":10569.411,"end":10586.346,"text":"被害人在步入社會在有正常的工作他能夠去勇敢的面對自己的過去曾經我們在衛福部也有特別做過一些統計在衛福部的統計2023年性侵害的被害人總共有9,413人其中"},{"start":10590.623,"end":10619.243,"text":"18歲以下的高達了有5155人而這5155人當中又有80%是熟人加害所為這些熟人包含哪一些呢家人、親戚、老師甚至於所謂的體育老師、教練等等這是所謂的熟人所以光是這樣子對於所謂的權力不等或者是他們害怕、恐懼"},{"start":10620.323,"end":10647.377,"text":"到我們的追溯期我今天要談的就是我們的追溯期喔那雖然我們現在追溯期是20年到30年的一個現行的一個規範但在有一些國家甚至在美國有許多州他們其實是沒有追溯期的也希望能夠取消這追溯期身為女性法官您對於所謂的兒少被性侵的案件那今年這件我剛剛所說的這個例子它現在也在今年3月喔"},{"start":10648.051,"end":10653.663,"text":"我們的憲法法庭也來受理了那您對這個追溯期的部分您的看法"},{"start":10654.394,"end":10680.844,"text":"好,謝謝委員的提問那這個問題是刑法第80條規定一律以犯罪成立的時間點來計算而且只有依法定型的輕重定有不同的追溯期所導致的問題那這裡其實真正的爭點就像剛剛委員所說的沒有考量犯罪被害人的特殊情況比如說兒少性侵害的特殊情況裡面被害人年紀較小提出刑事告訴有困難"},{"start":10682.144,"end":10709.045,"text":"加害者跟被害人有緊張的關係或是有權勢關係國家事實上也很難去發現這些被害人的處境等等如果從這個角度來看再加上我們對於比較法上面的研究的粗淺心得我想兒少性侵案的犯罪追溯期怎麼期算或者追溯期間的長短我個人基於學理的立場我認為是有追溯空間的"},{"start":10710.366,"end":10731.935,"text":"我的理解是今年已經有立法委員也提出了修正案希望能夠去研擬、排除或改為被害人成年之後才開始計算追溯期這樣的講法當然法務部還沒有完全接納這樣子的主張也許這個就必須要再做更進一步的民主審議跟協調"},{"start":10733.877,"end":10751.68,"text":"這是針對刑法的部分那另外其實在針對所謂的民法球場的部分我想這個是完全嚴重的跟不上那我相信您應該也非常的清楚在民事球場的部分是不是也應該要得到一些重視因為目前現行的這個民法球場的部分"},{"start":10752.3,"end":10777.876,"text":"受害人必須要知悉自己被侵害兩年之內．或者是發生行為的10年之內．我們可想而知．剛剛我所提到的這位被害者．他是在7歲的時候．也就是說當他7歲．甚至現在有很多我們收到的一些陳情案件．他們受害者的年紀更小．是5歲．他要在7歲的時候兩年之內．他要知道自己原來這樣叫做被性侵．"},{"start":10778.576,"end":10805.692,"text":"才能夠去提起所謂的這個民事的求償的部分這個部分我想應該也是嚴重的落後是不是也一併要納入考慮是是謝謝委員提問我剛剛沒有講完的就是說關於刑事的那個部分因為現在已經有釋憲案在憲法法庭系署當中所以我其實不方便發表這個這個具體的評論那立法上面呢我覺得就是要靠各位關心而造"},{"start":10806.352,"end":10806.712,"text":"８提名張文貞："},{"start":10825.478,"end":10848.444,"text":"針對兒少性侵的這些案件可以有一個特別的規定事實上過去上一屆的立委也有人提出來過民法徵定197條之一的條文草案我想可能委員也清楚是對未成年人受到性侵跟妨害性自主的行為所生的損害賠償請求權從被害人成年期開始起算20年"},{"start":10850.385,"end":10850.705,"text":"謝謝郭委員、謝謝貝提名人"},{"start":10879.764,"end":10895.109,"text":"下一位我們請陳玉珍委員詢問謝謝主席有請我們劉靜怡被提名人請被提名人答詢"},{"start":10902.745,"end":10926.677,"text":"劉教授我看您剛剛這個回答的都不卑不亢非常的好那但是我也要請您大概注意一下像剛剛所說的這個尤其您說這個憲法法庭的如果總額的這個問題可能還有配套那事實上翁小林委員所提出來這個憲法總額是有把該迴避的名額扣掉的所以有時候在接受資訊的時候要做判斷的時候"},{"start":10927.037,"end":10954.668,"text":"有的人準備不全或是不了解事情的全貌但是事實上你們在做相關的這個時候是需要做全面性的了解在這個配套說是有的那我想跟您討論一下我發現您的這個我對這個大法官被提名的這個標準我大概自己把它分為這四項學術專業國家認同品德操守跟人權保障這四項那我剛剛看到我看您的這個回答事實上是比較就是"},{"start":10957.423,"end":10957.663,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10987.603,"end":10987.943,"text":"額有權威著作權威著作是哪一本?"},{"start":11002.502,"end":11024.476,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我當然不敢說自己是權威雖然法律上面是這樣規定不過我個人在言論自由、新聞自由跟資訊隱私的幾個領域我其實有非常多的專論我看到你有很多文章有兩本專書那其他大部分都是"},{"start":11028.679,"end":11037.234,"text":"文章收錄還有一些未出版的因為還要經立明審查還有未出版的一些文章收錄所以這兩本書是所謂的權威著作嗎?您會這樣認為嗎?"},{"start":11038.544,"end":11040.905,"text":"在國內也受到非常多的引用所以你也不認為是權威著作了"},{"start":11060.7,"end":11061.14,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11091.34,"end":11115.106,"text":"復合任命為大法官的標準品德操守人非聖賢 孰人無過知錯人改善莫大焉注意到媒體我今天特別給您一個說明的空間我注意到您曾經在臉書放說我們廣中民校長就是副下大使違法兼職又稱他是兼職台灣大的獨董"},{"start":11116.266,"end":11131.934,"text":"那這個臺大有一個認定喔這個管中銘未附陸兼職符合教育部規定這個臺大認定你覺得是臺大是你認知的學校嘛臺大認知認定說管中銘沒有附大陸兼職您說他違法兼職那你覺得臺大這個認定是正確的嗎"},{"start":11133.059,"end":11148.867,"text":"台大當時的認定基本上是用廈門大學的回函來做認定這是一個行政上的認定所以你認為台大的因為台大有這個新聞這個台大這個認定是正確還是不正確我認為是一個不盡正確的偏頗認定所以你認為台大的認定是一個"},{"start":11160.672,"end":11165.094,"text":"因為我自己本身不是當事人所以我不可能有陳述的機會又說到管中銘違規兼職列教育部的這個名單就台大說當時已經卸任讀董那這個東西比較明確了吧"},{"start":11188.945,"end":11189.105,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":11206.966,"end":11220.846,"text":"在沒有獲得臺大校方的同意之前就去擔任臺歌大的讀董、新知委員會等等的這個事情呢其實事後在"},{"start":11222.408,"end":11241.944,"text":"檢察院的彈劾案裡面講得非常清楚所以呢這個部分呢我並沒有講錯台大說他當時已經卸任讀董了已經辭卸任所以你說辭卸任沒有問題你說他去擔任以前沒有去那個嘛他擔任之前沒有經過台大就已經有違法事實了"},{"start":11246.207,"end":11268.719,"text":"所以您到今天還是認為說臺大的這些認定是偏頗或是不正確的您還是覺得您的指控是正確的接著您說對於我們管校長他說您的國發所的論文抄襲這個部分你說不回應是因為不確實還是怎樣"},{"start":11271.237,"end":11272.717,"text":"國發所論文抄襲並不是我抄襲所以我不知道我要回應什麼"},{"start":11292.244,"end":11292.704,"text":"對於年金改革的視線裡頭你有做鑑定的意見嗎?"},{"start":11318.869,"end":11343.115,"text":"就是說這個年金改革的改變無涉於是否違反法律不溯及既往的原則也沒有侵害到受規範對象之財產權這些意見您看您有講過這些嗎還有未違反法律不溯及既往原則難認定違反憲法第15條生存權的保障沒有違反沒有侵害受規範者的財產權也沒有這個都是您說過的話這個應該是"},{"start":11347.22,"end":11375.199,"text":"您確定嗎?我沒有說錯,您說過這話您的第三頁,意見書第三頁有提到公共年金制度本質上必須含納動態調整的可能性對退伏基金、財務收支平衡的基本目標要怎麼達成?您說的是本應容許政府與立法者定期共同檢討的空間以便能夠是實際需要進行調整的以確保公共年金制度的"},{"start":11375.998,"end":11376.478,"text":"我曾經研究過的事情"},{"start":11394.07,"end":11395.331,"text":"政府與立法者定期共同檢討"},{"start":11414.028,"end":11434.84,"text":"我認為這個事情當然如果有具體個案進來的話我就不便表示意見那如果這個是一個潛在的釋憲案的話我在這裡也不方便講太多不一定是一個釋憲啦民進黨不一定會提出釋憲啦如果就您以前因為您現在不是大法官的人選只是被提名根據您的這個"},{"start":11436.1,"end":11452.527,"text":"過往的這個信念價值我看您也一向信念價值是怎樣就怎樣也不會說勢至無為會迴避問題不像前面那兩位會迴避問題但是您本來做的就是本應容許政府與立法者共同定期檢討空間那過了好幾年嘛我還是抱持同樣的態度所以也是認為這應該是政府與立法者應該可以有"},{"start":11459.87,"end":11461.83,"text":"政府、立法部門、行政部門必須要共同維護大家的最低生存權"},{"start":11484.455,"end":11508.242,"text":"有時候因為這個憲法的這個規定那影響到人民實際的權利的時候這時候這個當然你就要有您的這個看法了我舉一個金門的例子來給你聽您知道我是來自金門縣嘛福建省金門 中華民國福建省金門知道吧我們這個因為這個國家的業地誤會問題造成人民權益受損工作財產都受到損害你應該不能保持緘默啦然後給人家看一下這個圖齁您看一下這個"},{"start":11510.812,"end":11532.382,"text":"現實案例齁這個你知道中華民國憲法有規定中華民國的這個固有疆域這個沒問題嘛齁這個憲法裡頭有明文規定嘛齁您看看這個圖上面有藍色的跟紅色的齁這個就是禁憲制水域這個是我們這個之前這個國防部畫出的金門的這個禁憲制水域齁那金門民眾因為齁"},{"start":11534.977,"end":11535.317,"text":"中華民國憲法規定"},{"start":11556.61,"end":11575.965,"text":"如果大陸的船要進來對我們做什麼事情我們還可以說基於安全保障我們對大陸的進行這個我這個是可以接受的但是對金門我們中華民國的國民因為船開出了我們自己畫的淨限制水域而因此被地檢署起訴在金門數百案件你怎麼看"},{"start":11578.005,"end":11603.86,"text":"好那個謝謝委員告訴我這個案例因為我對於離島的相關的事務我現在考慮是憲法問題吧因為中華民國過了將來在我們的中華民國憲法是有講的我現在要回答委員就是說我們我想委員也知道我們的憲法憲法增修條文跟兩岸條例基本上是一個非常特殊的一個架構他事實上就是以這個"},{"start":11606.162,"end":11621.576,"text":"主權跟治權的這樣子的一個合一還是分立的狀況弄起來所以我們限制不讓大陸的漁船進來這個是合理的,我也接受啊在你那個前提下中華民國自己的國民"},{"start":11624.238,"end":11652.2,"text":"不能行使在中華民國自己這些還是我們認知的隨遇我想在這個部分基本上就是必須要去考量說在這樣子的一個架構底下對於本國人民的基本權利的限制受到保障啊受到侵犯啊受到限制啊有過度的限制受到的限制啊反一開出去就是受到地檢署的起訴啊自己要在自己的海域裏頭捕魚就是不能捕魚啊所以這個東西是不是應該有檢討的必要"},{"start":11652.58,"end":11671.684,"text":"所以我想這個部分的問題的確可以有檢討的必要下一題也是根據中華民國憲法中華民國憲法第148條中華民國領域內一切貨物應許自由流通這個您知道吧自由流通的意思就是說我舉個例子你從這個我問過蘇貞昌院長來你從這個"},{"start":11676.496,"end":11697.751,"text":"您是哪裡人?宜蘭人?我是宜蘭人。我們也有很多走私的問題。我現在不是要問走私,我問中華民國境內,台澎金馬,我就問台澎金馬境內,兩岸聯盟關係的自由地區裡頭,你如果從高雄帶宜蘭雞蛋上來,請問你是不是應該要經過檢查?從宜蘭就好了,從宜蘭帶到台北,是不是應該要經過檢查?"},{"start":11699.711,"end":11715.58,"text":"經過什麼檢查?檢查看你這個雞蛋安不安全?檢查這個雞蛋有沒有病啊?檢查這個雞蛋帶了幾顆啊?食物上應該是沒有沒有嘛 對不對?你知道嗎?我給你看一下金門人的金門如果帶雞蛋到台灣島來要坐飛機嘛我們是要經過檢查的這個符合中華民國憲法嗎?那來我跟你說齁"},{"start":11722.506,"end":11747.796,"text":"不只一樣 帶牛肉、帶豬肉、帶雞蛋好 我跟您說 如果牛肉你說 可能有一些什麼病菌啊 什麼或什麼或豬的什麼口蹄啊 什麼豬瘟啊 這一點我說為了必要的這個一些防止其他的法醫的被侵害喔 這個我倒是還說 這個勉強我們來配合政府說怎麼來做 對不對 這樣子算才是可以接受啦但是 您知道嗎 在我質詢的那個時候 在兩年前"},{"start":11752.182,"end":11759.861,"text":"平東地區有禽流感金門地區沒有禽流感金門沒有禽流感沒有任何的"},{"start":11766.744,"end":11782.272,"text":"請問在這個情況下從屏東到臺北帶雞蛋來是不用檢查是沒有限制從金門到在金門到臺灣來是被限制的是要被檢查的當然在有爭取後現在說放寬一點可以帶20顆啦但是我想請教這個沒有違反憲法嗎"},{"start":11785.173,"end":11785.493,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11799.701,"end":11800.922,"text":"主管機關要做這樣的規範的時候就必須要負責舉證"},{"start":11827.335,"end":11851.267,"text":"就是呢為什麼金門必須要受到不一樣的限制這樣算不算一個國家內實行兩種制度啊請問你這樣算不算一個國家內實行兩種制度啊我不同意你不同意他實施這個制度還是你不同意這是一國兩制啊我不同意在同一個國家裡面沒有特殊的公共利益的要求的時候呢去做這樣子的區分的限制"},{"start":11851.907,"end":11874.432,"text":"所以現在的制度 我跟你講這都是事實現在的制度就是在一個國家內實施兩種制度你從宜蘭帶過來台北不用檢查我從金門帶過來就是要檢查就是要檢查而且金門沒有禽流感屏東那時候那時候還有禽流感他們還不用檢查你覺得如果你是身為離島的居民身為金門居民你不會覺得備受歧視嗎"},{"start":11875.652,"end":11876.013,"text":"中華民國憲法增修條文第10條第12項"},{"start":11897.735,"end":11923.702,"text":"國家應依民族意願保障原住民族之地位及政治參與．並對其教育文化、交通、水利、衛生、醫療．經濟、土地及社會福利事項予以保障．並輔助並促其發展．其辦法令與法律定制．對澎湖、金門、馬祖地區民眾一同．這個是在憲法裡頭明文規定的．所以我們知道現在對原住民有什麼．原住民有原住民基本法您知道嗎我知道"},{"start":11924.69,"end":11934.882,"text":"那請問呢：在這個情況下：憲法竟然有這樣明文規定：如果金馬鵬民眾要訂個金馬鵬人民基本法：您是否也覺得是可行的呢："},{"start":11936.546,"end":11961.724,"text":"就是離島基本法或是金馬鵬人民基本法都可以如果要對離島的人民做特殊的保障我想我們憲法裡面其實並不是沒有依據的就是剛剛委員所提到的那些那我覺得不管是過去我想委員也知道過去曾經有離島條例的這些倡議的立法朝野都有很大的爭執"},{"start":11965.207,"end":11985.623,"text":"這裡其實會涉及到的問題其實是一個所謂的資源分配的問題我個人向來認為我是宜蘭人宜蘭有很多偏鄉我認為我們在偏鄉的保護上面或者是離島的保護上面的確是有在討論的空間所以我坦白講"},{"start":11986.824,"end":12013.94,"text":"我不反對呢在金馬鵬人民的這個部分呢做一些呢比較架構性的基本權益的保障就像設立一個基本法嘛就是比如說原住民原住民有的這個原住民基本法客家居民有什麼客家基本法那這個金馬鵬人民就是離島也是一個理論上這也應該我要問的是因為你是大法官的提名這樣有違反憲法嗎"},{"start":12015.019,"end":12020.098,"text":"我其實不認為定基本法會有違反憲法的問題那這樣會有什麼問題嗎?"},{"start":12023.023,"end":12046.784,"text":"你支持這樣嗎?如果說有這樣的立法我覺得這裡可能如果我當立法委員的話我大致上是可以支持的也是支持這樣的立法嗎?那這裡會有的問題是說基本法只是一個架構性的立法它必須要有其他的作用法我想委員員是學法律的應該知道必須要有其他的作用法來分配資源那作用法是不是合憲就必須要用個案來檢驗"},{"start":12047.605,"end":12072.436,"text":"那個後續當然我們這個相關法律我們在立法院裡頭會做充分的這個討論不過我是對今天一些部分的答案還算是滿意的第一個就是對於年金的這個部分這個當然可以定期的來做檢討就是政府跟立法之間可以定一下看是不是對人民的一些基本生存權有受到侵犯那第二點對於這個金門這個農業尤其是農業部違反的中華民國憲法148條中華民國境內會不會應該獲唱其流"},{"start":12076.798,"end":12077.599,"text":"謝謝陳委員的詢問,也謝謝被提名的"},{"start":12105.592,"end":12110.683,"text":"報告全院委員會上午會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行委員詢問現在休息"},{"start":21593.356,"end":21594.216,"text":"主席院長麻煩請背題名人"},{"start":21623.946,"end":21652.636,"text":"麻煩請備提名人你好有幾個機會跟你聊聊憲法上面的問題跟看法最近韓國就有發生了一個政治上面的戒嚴的事件這個我想你應該清楚了那以各國的憲法來講主要"},{"start":21653.858,"end":21671.546,"text":"兩大類型一般是常見的內閣制國家跟還有總統制國家那當然也有一些是在介在兩個之間的那主要如果以總統制國家因為韓國是總統制國家他的這個發生了憲政上面的爭議當然"},{"start":21676.018,"end":21704.388,"text":"他們是發生這樣子如果以韓國而言我知道就是說如果總統提的法案然後這個或是他們國會提的法案然後通過在國會通過可是總統認為他有意見他可以退回然後在回到國會裡面三分之二以上多數堅持的時候他才能夠這個國會才能夠遂行他的意志那如果在內閣制國家"},{"start":21706.663,"end":21733.639,"text":"發生憲政上的僵持堅持這個僵局的時候政治上的僵局最常見到的方法就是用解散國會重新改選把這個將裁判者交回到全體選民的手中那以這兩個狀況來類比來看我們臺灣中華民國是所謂的五權憲法我感受不到我們的憲政僵局"},{"start":21734.735,"end":21739.478,"text":"謝謝委員我們的國家基本上到底是內閣制還是總統制還是雙首長制呢我想這是一個不管在學歷上或實際上大家都討論很多的問題"},{"start":21759.77,"end":21764.256,"text":"我們在學界很多人會認為說他是一個比較偏向於總統優勢的雙手掌制"},{"start":21767.413,"end":21790.69,"text":"但是因為實際執行政務跟協商的是行政院院長那修憲之後總統任命行政院院長也不必經過立法院的同意總統就可以自己決定要任免行政院院長那行政院院長本身也沒有法案或者是命令的附屬權但是他施政成績是必須要向總統負責的"},{"start":21794.152,"end":21814.779,"text":"這樣子的角色看起來其實坦白講的確比較像是總統的幕僚長他比較沒有獨立行使權力的空間那在現行的這個制度底下如果呢總統的政黨是國會少數的時候呢"},{"start":21816.109,"end":21845.385,"text":"其實憲法也沒有要求要任命國會多數去做行政首長的這樣的義務當然有一些國家會說我們可以來做混合組閣或者是任命多數黨的內閣或者是堅持少數黨的內閣的不同選擇等等這些做法但是顯然我們的實際上面的這個做法其實都沒有發生過這樣的這個例子"},{"start":21846.482,"end":21862.594,"text":"那所以如果發生憲政僵局的話坦白講呢我不是很確定委員所指稱的憲政僵局大概是包括哪些憲政僵局那我就就是先嘗試統合的說這樣子我覺得"},{"start":21866.792,"end":21891.002,"text":"如果有憲政僵局產生的時候其實因為這個僵局很可能是政治部門之間的爭執行政部門跟立法部門之間的爭執沒有 不一定現在將來有可能延伸到立法部門跟司法憲政機構、憲法法庭的爭執如果它是政治部門之間的爭執的話那麼"},{"start":21893.283,"end":21914.613,"text":"我會比較傾向於政治部門必須要想辦法協商解決如果不行的話那依照我們大法官的解釋意旨基本上呢可能就必須要由司法權去介入去處理呢到底是中間我們的所謂的權力分立制衡的原則有沒有違反"},{"start":21915.666,"end":21940.092,"text":"各個權力部門的核心領域有沒有被侵犯到這是我目前的想法其實無論它是什麼字總統是那個字混合字什麼偏向總統偏向那個都不要緊重點是憲政將局要有解決的機制那如果沒有解決的機制可不可以視為說這個憲法制度上面的一個大的漏洞"},{"start":21941.36,"end":21969.013,"text":"因為無法解決將在那邊其實時間一直在過整個國家一直在空轉如果有憲政僵局的時候那就再往下問現在也有提出所謂的憲法這個對於憲法法庭的這個訴訟的這個修正的法案那細節就不談"},{"start":21970.424,"end":21997.399,"text":"如果他堅持一定要怎麼樣多數的人原額才能夠開成這個憲法法庭那要多少比例以上才能夠做成決議假設原額不足的時候就事實上實質的原額不足的時候事實上就是架空了整個憲法法庭那憲法法庭該如何運作呢聽聽看你的講法"},{"start":22000.263,"end":22015.835,"text":"當然這個是目前大院審議當中的憲法訴訟法修論草案我只能夠基於一個學者的立場針對學理上面可能想像到的問題跟大院做回答"},{"start":22018.403,"end":22028.282,"text":"從比較法的觀點來看每一個國家到底憲法法庭怎麼樣才可以開會怎麼樣才可以做決議其實規定都不一樣規定都不一樣"},{"start":22030.871,"end":22059.258,"text":"我們呢大法官是15個人美國大法官是9個人但是呢我們基本上只有任期8年美國任期是終身制所以比較起來其實美國是比較不容易出現有多位大法官缺額的這樣的一個狀況那像我們目前的體制以及現在運作的現況看起來呢的確是有可能會有多位的這個大法官這個缺額的這樣的狀況出現"},{"start":22061.328,"end":22071.011,"text":"那這樣子的情況出現的時候呢坦白講當然憲法訴訟法的修法是立法院的職權司法權當然會尊重可是這裡會有一個問題就是說"},{"start":22077.993,"end":22104.618,"text":"如果修法的結果在實際上導致憲法法庭真的沒有辦法運作的話那其實這裡會有一個很麻煩的問題就是委員所說到的憲政爭議權力分立制衡的這個部分的問題沒有辦法解決那我更關心的是對於人民基本權力的保障的這些案件沒有辦法處理"},{"start":22106.231,"end":22117.643,"text":"我關心全部我不是只有關心人民的權益當然非常重要但是憲政如何讓他可以順順的運轉這也是一個很重要的課題所以我會認為就是說"},{"start":22121.826,"end":22143.296,"text":"即使要修法都必須要有清楚的配套措施寫進去OK重點就是不能夠讓司法權這樣子的一個國家的仲裁者處於無法運作的狀態或者是憲法保護者人民基本權利的保護者處於沒有辦法運作的狀態"},{"start":22144.757,"end":22167.887,"text":"我認為這樣的事情就必須要立法院、朝野政黨發揮高度的智慧基本上必須要將你想要立法可能產生的問題基本上做一個通盤的考量必須要做一個立法事實的檢視必須要想想看以後會發生什麼樣的事情"},{"start":22169.336,"end":22192.51,"text":"在修法的過程當中當然現在也在審查大法官我們的憲法法院也說了基本上對於每一個憲法機關的人事權的審查跟同意其實是有憲法忠誠義務的我會覺得在這種情況底下就是必須要行政權跟立法權都好好的"},{"start":22194.113,"end":22200.107,"text":"理性的、謹慎的把適當的大法官的審查結果做出來"},{"start":22202.234,"end":22222.22,"text":"你這是理想狀況我現在講的就是說如果不照你講的這個理想狀況去做事實上就產生了所謂的憲政僵局啊這就是我要跟你請教的這就是我要說的就是說如果因為我們本院就立法院就有人認為我比你大啊立法權比你們所有的權都大啊所以我如果不照你講的這個邏輯來你講這個是一個正常的邏輯嘛"},{"start":22226.101,"end":22229.403,"text":"報告委員,在我的看法裡面,憲法機關之間沒有誰比誰大的問題,基本上是權力分立制衡的問題。"},{"start":22247.933,"end":22262.486,"text":"那 again 就是如果呢 任何的憲法機關在行使權利的時候侵害到其他憲法機關的核心領域的時候 這個都必須是由司法權來解決的"},{"start":22264.268,"end":22265.589,"text":"司法的自主性的這個部分必須要維持"},{"start":22290.911,"end":22314.145,"text":"那當然就是說藉時如果有這樣的一個釋憲案出來的話基本上我不知道現在既有的大法官會怎麼樣去處理這件事情我不便預測以我現﹖你是被提名人現在假設你是大法官你認為應該如何處理這個僵局這是我今天對你提出的問題你就盡可能的回答我"},{"start":22314.525,"end":22341.675,"text":"可能必須要基於所謂的司法自主權的基本的原則去盡量想辦法讓憲法法庭可以開庭跟做成決議就是說可以不要遵守立法院立的法你規定我10個人才能開成庭我也可以不要遵守還是我就直接把你修這個法我主動宣告你違憲我想基本上宣告違憲這件事情是必須要有人申請"},{"start":22343.943,"end":22366.482,"text":"那假設沒有人要申請那是不是就僵在那邊啊?我想應該不至於沒有人會申請因為在我們事業的程序裡面基本上可以申請的人非常多那所以我的回答大概就是這個樣子那我就繼續往下問其實這是對整個國家來講是不幸的事情如果發生這樣的僵局"},{"start":22367.162,"end":22391.984,"text":"因為現在立法院有一些人的心態他很可怕啊就是因為我立了法律你要給我解釋違憲或是有被解釋違憲的嫌疑所以我就根本就不讓你解釋啊讓你連開庭審理的機會都沒有你就沒有資格來判我違憲不過這是立法院的角度但是司法院其實是整個憲法的守護者整個制度的守護者"},{"start":22393.888,"end":22421.199,"text":"立法委員、立法院有可能做出違憲的審議的法律這是立法院齁其他院也有可能會違憲欸行政院也有可能會違憲啊考試院也有可能會違憲啊監察院也有可能會違憲啊其實當這個違憲的時候本來決定是不是違憲決定的機關就是在憲法法庭嘛好我問你啊我就問你一個問題啊"},{"start":22422.369,"end":22447.826,"text":"假設真的被架空了立法委員很高興以後我們如何審法案我高興怎麼定就怎麼定反正已經沒有憲法法庭了也沒有辦法宣告我違憲跟你講這時候高興行政機關可能也很高興沒關係你都搞反正我都沒有人可以解釋我違憲我行政機關要怎麼解讀法律我就怎麼解讀法律我要高興要怎麼做就怎麼做啊於是中華民國的憲政秩序就崩潰了"},{"start":22448.902,"end":22462.529,"text":"所以現在搞的人都以為自己很高明啊我站在我自己的立場反正我立法機關你怎麼樣你不能夠搞我不能夠宣告我違憲就夠了他都忘了別的機關別的憲政機關也有可能違憲當別的憲政機關違憲的時候他要怎麼辦"},{"start":22466.275,"end":22492.678,"text":"這個我想就是我剛剛說的大家在想要修憲法訴訟法的時候其實要有更加周延的考慮就是說的確會違憲的機關非常的多尤其主導行政權的行政院他其實所行使的權利其實有很多很多的狀況底下是會侵害到人民的權利的"},{"start":22493.098,"end":22521.155,"text":"本來憲法裡面人民基本權利的保護他最主要要保護的對象就是要對抗行政權是沒有錯本來在原來的憲法的結構上就是這樣但是現在有人想要把這件大怪物放出來喔放出來因為要把憲法法庭廢掉喔憲法法庭如果實質真的被架空之後那當發生這些事情的時候我找不到一個機關在目前中華民國憲法找不到一個機關可以去宣告說你這個行為違憲喔"},{"start":22522.56,"end":22542.177,"text":"是所以我想就是說這個在立法的時候是要非常非常的謹慎的事實上是不應該這樣子處理的那這個司法權如果遇到這麼極端的情況的話我想司法權必須要呢基於他的這個自主權的這個部分"},{"start":22543.399,"end":22566.994,"text":"想辦法來解決這樣的問題不應該放任人民的基本權利跟國家的自由民主的憲政秩序變成這樣的結果當然我們還是希望我還是希望就是說在修法的時候能夠更加的謹慎如果真的有憲政爭議的時候就想辦法用釋憲的方式來解決"},{"start":22572.118,"end":22589.293,"text":"以我們學法律的人當然可以接受你這樣講法的機會比較大但是你想想看有的人不相信的原因在哪裡呢無論行政權或是立法權就台灣"},{"start":22590.691,"end":22613.367,"text":"他都是人民賦予選舉產生嘛今年1月13號其實有兩個選舉加在一起一個是總統行政權的選舉一個是立法院立法委員的選舉他把兩個選舉放在同一天所以他其實同時選舉了行政權跟國會立法院的權利但是現在選完的時候兩邊當選的黨不一樣"},{"start":22617.415,"end":22642.388,"text":"他利用自己的職權拼命擴張想要去變更這個選舉的結果人事選其實核心的議題就是兩個行政局的核心議題就是兩個一個就是人事一個就是預算就是人跟錢他利用法律修訂一直擴張然後你的人事要經過他的干涉你才能夠用甚至什麼樣的人不能用他都有意見"},{"start":22645.032,"end":22668.767,"text":"金費現在雖然憲法命令規定不得為增加預算是提案他利用法律的法律案來給你規定他的錢要怎麼用這個角度上面都是在對行政權的侵犯你覺得如果從概略總體上面來講這樣的講法你同不同意我想人事權跟預算權基本上都是"},{"start":22670.026,"end":22672.727,"text":"可以審議但是他審議如果是不合常理的你的人我不中意我就都不給你用"},{"start":22698.053,"end":22712.665,"text":"所以我覺得基本上國會政治部門行政跟立法之間基本上必須要想清楚就是說基本上我們應該都是用善意的方式來審查人事權為國家舉裁"},{"start":22715.547,"end":22742.101,"text":"有好的行政官員其實才能盡責的把國家該做的事情做好那同樣的道理立法權當然是有立法的權利那他在做一些立法的時候自然會需要有一些相應的資源的分配比如說我今天如果規定說基本上應該怎麼樣輔助弱小"},{"start":22743.662,"end":22769.139,"text":"或者是說各個公共場所或者是診所應該要有讓身心障礙者能夠方便使用的措施我講的預算的那個侵犯不是這樣我舉一個例子我多數黨嘛你執政的是少數黨嘛你的國家的總體預算我就全部幫你拿來我分配給地方分配給我比較多的地方啊那你中央政府就沒有錢啊"},{"start":22770.629,"end":22796.081,"text":"那你總統如果沒有錢你就做不出成績阿用政治的角度去做這樣子的政治的攻防沒有考慮到憲法的分際對這樣的問題要如何解決我想這個部分的問題呢基本上從憲法的憲政的角度來看呢基本上就是必須要看中央與地方分權的這個市權跟經費的資源的分配的問題他不跟你討論市權阿他現在就是光討論經費阿"},{"start":22797.722,"end":22823.896,"text":"所以我想這樣子的討論就是有失偏頗應該呢相應的這就是因為有人認為他比你大所以他不在乎他的偏頗嘛你們這些我們學者論道尊尊教誨侃侃而談沒有放在眼裡啦就是我只比你大我這個叫做流氓邏輯啊當我人少的時候我跟你講道理當我人多的時候我就跟你表決你在講什麼我們沒有需要跟你討論啊"},{"start":22825.598,"end":22827.319,"text":"接下來我們請登記第5位翁曉琳委員詢問"},{"start":22861.515,"end":22861.896,"text":"麻煩請劉教授備詢。"},{"start":22873.722,"end":22891.552,"text":"劉教授您好在這邊也很恭喜您被賴清德總統提名為大法官候選人那麼這次本席也拜讀了您所提出來的相關的書面資料也看到您很認真的在回覆各個黨團還有您自己所"},{"start":22892.463,"end":22893.104,"text":"多元性、多元化"},{"start":22908.344,"end":22928.017,"text":"的這個關鍵詞那麼您也認為說多元化的憲法法庭是可以提升司法的透明度信賴度多元化的視角是可以有助於減少偏見增進大法官的理性對話那多元性也可以讓憲法法庭成為一個能夠確保司法裁判真正能夠反映憲法精神的一個關鍵點"},{"start":22929.418,"end":22943.354,"text":"所以您最後其實對多元化下了一個結論就是大法官的多元化不僅是為了維護司法獨立更是為了確保每一個憲法判決都是以公正與平等的為基礎"},{"start":22944.495,"end":22963.609,"text":"在此本席非常同意您的看法所以在這裡想進一步的請教您如何實踐大法官組成的多元化我想這個多元化基本上一定也涵蓋大法官組成的多元化是不是可以請您簡單的說明您認為怎麼樣達到大法官組成的多元化"},{"start":22964.949,"end":22990.488,"text":"我想我們可以分幾個層次來講麻煩請你剪短一分鐘之內謝謝第一個層次就是基本上我們的有關於大法官資格的這個部分其實有做了一些明確的規定那第二個就是這個總統在提名的時候基本上要想辦法去把這個憲法法院的多元化的這個可能性盡量的擴張"},{"start":22992.149,"end":23018.212,"text":"所以提名人本身其實是有這樣子的義務即使不是憲法義務也是道德上面的義務應該做的那第三個當然就是貴院的審查那我想貴院是最有直接民意的跟總統是一樣是一個兩員對立的直接民意所以貴院的審查過程其實就是基於民意來針對大法官的多元性"},{"start":23019.173,"end":23020.075,"text":"大法官候選人夠多元嗎?"},{"start":23029.797,"end":23058.659,"text":"那就要看從哪個角度來看我想從性別、從專業的角度來看呢我想總統是想盡辦法在促成這個多元的可能性好的我接下來帶大家來解釋一下這次賴清德所提出來的大法官候選人是不是夠多元化除了剛剛講的專業性別之外呢我更是從服務的單位他學歷哪個學校畢業的政治立場"},{"start":23059.58,"end":23071.191,"text":"因為政治立場還有他的這個法律觀點我來進行一些分析其實呢可以從這次大法官提名人大法官提名人的背景裡面就可以知道光是台大畢業的就9位"},{"start":23072.912,"end":23088.733,"text":"然後服務於臺大法學院的教授就5位這個還只是就學界其實在大法官的組成裡面實務界的大法官大概就扣掉5位了還有一些來自於律師光是學界的大法官是臺大教授就5位然後贊成廢死的"},{"start":23089.474,"end":23104.531,"text":"包含十字廢死的15個人就是我們現在把現任的大法官跟被提名的大法官合併起來看就有15位反對國會改革也就是支持這一次的國會改革釋憲案的這個"},{"start":23106.913,"end":23116.036,"text":"大法官和被提名人大概也就有15位更不用說整個的政治立場觀點基本上就是親民進黨總統的政黨所以從這個角度來看這樣的組成結構是夠多元嗎"},{"start":23122.838,"end":23150.756,"text":"我想這就要看你用什麼樣的區分標準來看多元這件事情在我看起來哪一個學校畢業恐怕沒有辦法作為一個真正正確的標準我相信有很多台大畢業的人想法跟我是不一樣的比如說反對國會改革這個部分我想我好像從來都沒有發表過反對國會改革的公共意見"},{"start":23151.676,"end":23163.942,"text":"可是在您這次寫的相關的書面資料裡面來看﹖看起來您是大部分支持這次的憲判自9號的判決﹖"},{"start":23168.545,"end":23191.184,"text":"我想我跟委員說明一下我向來的學術立場都認為國會的民主課則的監督的能力應該加強那這個就是可能委員所說的國會改革那我要講的是說因為我的時間有限所以簡單來說您支持我們立法院也可以有制定藐視國會處罰的權責"},{"start":23196.89,"end":23200.886,"text":"我想這個部分其實在比較法上面有非常多的例子"},{"start":23202.15,"end":23229.198,"text":"您只要說您是認為說有權力還是沒有權限我們大法官在這一次的釋憲裡面呢憲判9裡面呢針對這個部分其實可以講得更清楚相當程度來說我認為在國會調查權的這個部分聽證的這個部分都可以再加強那不同意建書裡面你同意有處罰嗎我同意在某一些條件底下"},{"start":23229.938,"end":23241.482,"text":"在合乎法律保留原則、比例原則的這些情況底下可以有一定的程序我們這次是透過立法院職權行使法去訂定的大法官竟然都還可以,包含您還認為說我們是不符合法律保留原則嗎?我不認為有這樣的問題啊所以我剛剛請委員讓我講完"},{"start":23249.125,"end":23277.011,"text":"所以或許可以參考不同意見書裡面比如說詹森林大法官所以你是支持詹森林大法官的意見是,蔡海珍大法官、袁彰琼文大法官都可以看他的想法有關於這個組成的部分那我想因為談到就是你可能比較強調是專業的組成專業的多元化那我接下來想請教就是大法官的多元化包括不包括審議人數的多元化"},{"start":23278.075,"end":23296.832,"text":"要多數化大法官人數的多數化我們這樣講好了以現在我們現在有的規定7位大法官卸任只留下8位大法官那麼如果說依照現在的規定極有可能出現的情況萬一有6個人迴避只剩下兩位大法官你認為他們適合開會同時做成評議嗎"},{"start":23303.502,"end":23307.952,"text":"報告委員我想委員所舉的這個例子是一個非常極端的例子"},{"start":23308.929,"end":23335.018,"text":"法律就在防弊我現在講就是說有沒有這種可能性當然在理論上極端的狀況所以你認為說這樣適合嗎極端的狀況的確有可能出現這樣的狀況我個人認為呢這樣子的方式這樣的情況底下做成決議的確有可能有欠缺民主正當性好的OK那我們剛剛講的是當然非常極端我們講一個正常的狀況現在有8位大法官"},{"start":23335.478,"end":23353.655,"text":"假設有兩個人今天請假可能身體不舒服生病請假那只剩下6位大法官那做成一個判決5個人這應該是很可能會發生而且事實上就是符合現在的這個狀況你認為5個人大法官就做成評議你可以接受嗎"},{"start":23355.437,"end":23365.046,"text":"我想在這種情況底下也許還是有民主正當性的問題但是實際上我覺得以現在大法官組成的狀況來講"},{"start":23368.976,"end":23393.605,"text":"大概不太有人會在這種狀況底下還請假您都在說假設但是呢這個生病難免出國請假也難免不是不可能發生因為我想因為您也是研究公法憲法應該很重視正當法律程序所以呢開會開庭的人數是不是也是屬於正當法律程序的一環"},{"start":23395.664,"end":23420.197,"text":"基本上我覺得這個比較像是民主正當性的一環是不是符合民主正當性是符合民主正當性所以少數大法官的確他不適合做成這麼重要的憲法判決如果這麼少的大法官做了這樣的憲法判決的確就有可能違反民主正當性然後違反我們的相關的這個正當法律程序"},{"start":23420.737,"end":23444.068,"text":"那接下來我還想請教就是：剛剛吳秉瑞委員所講的他說呢憲政機關有可能違憲請問憲法法庭有可能違憲嗎那要看個案的情況到底是怎麼樣所以也是有可能嗎如果說所有的憲政機關都有可能違憲當然不排除司法機關也有可能做成違憲的憲法判決是吧"},{"start":23447.578,"end":23462.967,"text":"我比較難以想像委員在講的是什麼樣的狀況在納粹時代的聯邦憲法德國聯邦憲法法院做了很多的判決後來都被認為它就是個違憲的憲法判決所以呢不代表說憲法法庭做出來的判決"},{"start":23464.514,"end":23464.574,"text":"《國民主權原則》"},{"start":23479.073,"end":23503.728,"text":"所以我要講就是說是吳秉瑞委員剛剛說的憲法法庭他處理的問題可能是在去解決有可能憲政機關有違憲但是呢也不要忘記憲法法院憲法法庭本身可能也可能會做成一個違憲的這個憲法判決那麼接下來我很想請教您的就是因為我們知道其實大法官的獨立性很重要"},{"start":23504.628,"end":23521.691,"text":"除了多元性我覺得大法官的獨立性更是重要要如何檢視判斷大法官有超越黨派能夠做到制衡執政者制衡行政權我覺得這個是一個很重要的一個檢驗標準不知道您是不是同意我"},{"start":23523.903,"end":23547.659,"text":"我是同意這個標準依照我們憲法的規定大法官基本上是依據法律獨立審判的法官的一種這個大法官也解釋過那當然他必須要用中立獨立超然的立場來進行審判那大法官他是不是超然獨立中立基本上當然就表現在他的憲法判決裡面"},{"start":23551.08,"end":23571.55,"text":"謝謝劉教授接下來我也做了一個表我們來看看這一屆的大法官他們到底做了哪些判決他們是反抗或制衡執政者的制衡行政權的經過我這個PPT上面所列的不管是在軍公教退休金的這個釋憲案"},{"start":23574.421,"end":23602.239,"text":"還有萊豬標示的釋憲案．農田水利會的釋憲案．不當黨產釋憲案．還有死刑有條件的核憲案．國會改革法案的釋憲案等等．諸如此類的憲法判決．幾乎都是在護航民進黨的政策．所以也難怪為什麼這屆的大法官備受批評．認為說他們就是一群綠油油的大法官．"},{"start":23603.872,"end":23632.051,"text":"我認為說要檢視一個大法官的獨立性就要聽其言、觀其行、讀其憲法判決從這些事實基本上就證明確實大法官如果說具有高度的政治性很難讓大家不質疑就是說是他是不是真的能夠在釋憲的時候做出一個中立、客觀、專業的憲法判決那麼因為大法官獨立性很重要所以接下來我也想就一些問題來請教您的意見"},{"start":23634.178,"end":23650.95,"text":"因為您過去其實也擔任過很多這個釋憲案的專家見地人那在這些議題上面我想有幾個部分大概我也不用再請教您譬如說當時在釋字689號解釋裡面您是支持狗仔記者有跟追的權利"},{"start":23652.01,"end":23675.61,"text":"對不起我想這個部分我想跟委員說明一下在這個案子裡面我是當時申請釋憲人的訴訟代理人基本上這個案子是在處理跟追跟隱私權之間的關係也就是新聞自由跟隱私權之間的關係並不是說我支持狗仔跟追在這個解釋裡面其實大法官也說了"},{"start":23680.287,"end":23708.457,"text":"即使你叫他狗仔他還是有新聞自由否則沒有辦法產製新聞所以我基本上知道你的立場即便是狗仔記者也是有新聞自由所以這個是您的立場當然您還有參加軍公教年改的釋憲案擔任專家經紀人或訴訟代理人然後您也支持通姦除罪化在酒駕強制抽血的部分您基本上是反對的對不對"},{"start":23709.978,"end":23710.999,"text":"您是不是支持在國中小的階段就要接受同性教育?"},{"start":23728.026,"end":23745.558,"text":"我其實不清楚委員所說的同性教育是什麼我沒有從我的公開的言論裡面說過在您這次的報告裡面我有看到我基本上是認為每一個人都應該盡量接受性別平等的教育"},{"start":23747.379,"end":23771.793,"text":"這個並不是說國中小接受同性教育沒有我完全沒有寫這個東西可能是委員弄錯了我是看到您的書面資料之後我們可以再確認然後請問一下您會支持NCC有權關掉新聞台嗎主要是研究言論自由新聞自由的我覺得這個要看是什麼樣的狀況要看是什麼樣的新聞台"},{"start":23775.755,"end":23798.169,"text":"中間新聞台你認為他應該關掉嗎我覺得中間新聞台的這個案子呢基本上呢可能在理由構成上面必須要更加的謹慎什麼的理由你是說關台的理由關台的理由對所以你還是認為說政府是有權關掉新聞台的基本上這不是關新聞台的問題這是一個衛星廣播電視執照新聞類的這個電視台換照的問題"},{"start":23801.351,"end":23803.633,"text":"這基本上我想委員也清楚這裡有嚴重的內容管制新聞自由的管制的問題"},{"start":23830.416,"end":23852.681,"text":"所以您是支持NCC有內容管制?我不支持我非常清楚不支持接下來我想請教您在這一次我們訪台的陸生他不經意的就是前陣子馬英九總統他不是邀請了一群陸生團其中有一位漂亮的女同學她在受訪的時候不經意的把Chinese Taipei講成中國台北然後被"},{"start":23853.781,"end":23858.303,"text":"請問一下您認為陸生這位大陸的女同學﹖她有沒有言論自由﹖她可以說中國台北﹖"},{"start":23871.842,"end":23895.872,"text":"我想這個是陸生的言論自由那你認為應該要處罰馬英九辦公室嗎因為這是馬英九辦公室他們主動我覺得應該主體不同吧這主體不同嘛那陸委會是要處罰啊是要處罰馬辦啊我想陸委會如果要處罰馬辦的話基本上就必須要看看那個個案裡面法律構成到底是因為陸生今天講這句話有妨礙國家安全"},{"start":23900.734,"end":23926.305,"text":"防害國家安全之餘?你認為講這句中國台北的話有防害國家安全之餘嗎?我想這個還需要更審慎的考量就直接這樣子講的話可能呢兩邊都沒有辦法說有此可見你沒有看清楚那個新聞嗎?我這次也發現我們很多的大法官基本上是不關心時事的不關心社會新聞所以難怪為什麼大家會批評我們大法官不接地氣"},{"start":23927.984,"end":23955.624,"text":"然後這次的很多大法官提名人還說我們要跟這個進行民主思辨跟社會對話但是都不看新聞不了解時事的大法官我都不知道要如何跟這個民意來對話好那接下來請問一下就是好我們接下來再來進行下一個題目這個在2018年臺大校長領選風波案裡面讓臺大有將近一年半的時間是沒有正式的校長"},{"start":23957.035,"end":23977.722,"text":"請問您作為臺大的教授﹖這一年半沒有校長﹖對臺大的效果有沒有影響?我想你要看是從哪一個方面來看臺大當時一直有代理校長﹖代理校長也很努力的在維持臺大的運作代理校長可以去做一些重要的決策嗎?其實都有在做那臺大的師生的生活一切如常"},{"start":23978.662,"end":24005.288,"text":"以我自己來講我自己就一切如常了解所以照您的這個邏輯其實大學可以不用正式校長我並沒有說我並沒有說大學我並沒有說大學不需要校長但是呢一個大學的校長基本上呢必須要透過真正的大學自治的方式選出來所以您認為說這個教育部"},{"start":24007.145,"end":24010.928,"text":"我所謂的倉促是沒有考慮到很多事情比如說當時"},{"start":24026.978,"end":24035.263,"text":"檢察院已經在調查管先生的違法兼職案但是呢他並沒有對並沒有把這個東西我認為有權力依照我們現在的大學法底下我認為我認為是"},{"start":24056.495,"end":24058.077,"text":"謝謝翁曉琳委員的詢問：也謝謝被提名的劉教授的詢問：謝謝"},{"start":24081.963,"end":24110.847,"text":"在接下來我們請登記第6號王振旭委員詢問謝謝韓院長有請劉教授、大法官、被提名人、劉靜怡教授"},{"start":24119.588,"end":24147.368,"text":"劉教授好委員好我先讀有關於總統府大法官被提名人介紹記者會當中對於劉教授的介紹跟說明你沒有提到劉被提名人長期在臺灣大學以及中央研究院從事憲法、資訊、科技以及人工智慧法學的研究與教學中外文的論述豐富"},{"start":24149.352,"end":24175.821,"text":"法學專業深受肯定．他也曾多次參與憲法．法庭重大的事件案件．例如擔任111年憲判制第13號．判決健保資料庫之鑑定人．而且劉教授在國際學術參與．也非常的亮眼．目前也擔任人工智慧國際組織．JPAI專家職務．從事跨領域研究與專業諮詢．"},{"start":24178.622,"end":24203.283,"text":"學術研究成果有助於人工智慧時代．個人資料及隱私權的保護．劉教授專精新興科技法學．具前瞻思維及國際視野．且多次參與憲法的法庭活動．對我國因應數位發展．維護民主憲政保障基本人權．一定能夠提供重要的影響與貢獻．相信"},{"start":24206.244,"end":24223.384,"text":"劉教授,如果您經過大家的同意的話：一定會不負總統的期望。是,我是來自醫界。劉教授是法界的權威。我還是先從醫界關心的一些事情來跟您就教。"},{"start":24224.133,"end":24229.943,"text":"一個就是有關於目前診所無障礙設施相關的問題因為這個問題的確在衛福部2021年的時候就有過一個"},{"start":24236.975,"end":24263.008,"text":"預告修正醫療機構設置標準第9條草案裡面．其實主要的是針對於我們的這些保障身心障礙者．就醫過程還有適應這個未來這個高齡者就醫的權益．來提高就醫的便利性跟可進性．希望能夠預計修正行政命令來規定．醫療診所都要有設置相關的友善設施．"},{"start":24264.048,"end":24273.975,"text":"他用意非常非常的良善那這個草案預計會新增包括的設施會有通路、診所"},{"start":24275.014,"end":24293.289,"text":"外號結帳的櫃台以及服務台都能夠讓我們這些身心障礙者或者是長者在就醫的過程裡面有他的方便性同時也不至於影響到他就醫的權益在這個過程裡面我們這個身心障礙聯盟曾經在針對這個修正的過程當中"},{"start":24296.331,"end":24319.851,"text":"發表一些聲明就是除了支持這個衛護部的相關的草案以外也希望能夠針對權益的維護部分希望能夠也讓這個診所在準備過程當中不至於有太大的問題所以提出的第一點就是要修正草案請要求新設的診所並不溯及既往第二點就是設置要求"},{"start":24320.424,"end":24341.06,"text":"以依照比例原則做彈性的調整．最後還提到．如果小規模診所．可以偵測友善廁所來改造的話．比如說偵測扶手．相信對於這些來就醫的這些長者．或者是身心障礙者．會有很多的方便．不過當然這個議界也提出所擔心的事情．"},{"start":24341.656,"end":24355.849,"text":"包括說在2024年6月的部分也提出希望能夠持續的維持這個關懷跟信任的醫病關係來共同打造這個可長可久的友善無障礙的就醫環境裡面又擔心如果"},{"start":24357.896,"end":24379.506,"text":"當這個強制規定的話：在住外南行的部分：希望能夠維持現行鼓勵：而非強制的政策方向：因為如果真的是住外南行：來影響這個基層診所的生存：尤其經過這個全面規劃：沒有考量到城鄉差距的情形之下：甚至有可能這些城駐的診所："},{"start":24381.107,"end":24407.997,"text":"如果真的都要做這樣的緩修．無法得到同意的時候．就會造成一些在服務過程裡面．反而會去影響到這些身陷障礙．或長者這個就醫．或者是權益的保障那這兩個部分．包括這個身陷障礙者．或這個年長者．可能在就醫過程裡面．希望能夠維持好的．完整的這個權益的保障"},{"start":24408.681,"end":24418.972,"text":"另外醫療診所尤其是診所這邊如果在比例原則工作權上受影響的話不知道劉教授您的看法如何"},{"start":24420.482,"end":24441.302,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想這個問題當然就是一個如何衡平不同的方面的權益的問題身心障礙者保護權益的法律基本上是因為我們CRPD的這些核心原則跟價值而來的"},{"start":24442.943,"end":24460.396,"text":"在CRPD的這個規定裡面基本上他會要求就是說必須要在這個所謂的公共場所的相關的空間設施以及無障礙設施上面當然包括硬體設施的部分必須要有這個"},{"start":24461.597,"end":24485.624,"text":"最低要符合所謂的合理調整原則這樣子的要求那這是一個法律上面的我們說要求跟誡命不過呢正如委員所說的法規的實踐或者是硬體的建設跟改善沒有辦法一觸可擊那無論國家或者是民間經營的業者可能都會有他的困難"},{"start":24486.804,"end":24507.175,"text":"所以在這個時候我認為國家必須要在確保符合CRPD跟生權法的情況底下確保不同的產業用各項的方式在各項社會設施、建築業的設計建築的設計跟公共服務還有各項民生服務、軟硬體建設、交通資訊等等等"},{"start":24508.596,"end":24532.664,"text":"想盡辦法盡量能夠協助民間單位跟產業來逐一落實這樣子的這個義務我認為在這個事情上面其實政府的角色是非常關鍵的那避免因為落實相關的法規的時候呢人民產業社會團體會不知所措甚至呢在抗拒的情況底下呢"},{"start":24532.964,"end":24532.984,"text":"張文貞議員"},{"start":24554.515,"end":24581.616,"text":"坦白講這樣的要求其實呢可能比餐廳的要求還要低我想委員也知道那我覺得這個部分就是國家應該要想辦法去想辦法去逐步改善的想要去應該要去輔導的事情尤其我們這個國家呢已經快要進入超高齡社會了對於這些無障礙設施的要求"},{"start":24582.705,"end":24582.905,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24609.292,"end":24625.898,"text":"政府應該更積極的跟醫療機構、醫療診所去合作﹐從各方面去協助醫療機構去改善提高﹐甚至支持這個空間設施的改善﹐以便能夠達到合理調整的這個部分的要求"},{"start":24626.718,"end":24627.719,"text":"合理調整"},{"start":24643.318,"end":24669.577,"text":"這裡當然會有一個問題就是呢僱主在處理這個合理調整的義務的達成的過程當中會不會呢有受到這個undue burden這樣子的過度的負擔的這個狀況那我覺得就必須要呢是資源以及個案來看看怎麼樣去處理這個問題我希望這樣子可能有答覆到委員的提問"},{"start":24670.236,"end":24699.076,"text":"好,非常感謝劉教授因為如果將來爭議走到需要釋憲的階段的話可能就是如劉教授所提到的我們期待大家都能夠用很前瞻的思維來討論這個問題好,謝謝那第二個部分就是要請教有關於這個醫藥分業跟釋制第778號解釋的這個內容的部分這個爭議其實主要就是醫藥分業的情形之下如何能夠保障我們就醫"},{"start":24704.78,"end":24727.135,"text":"主要是在藥師法第102條限制了醫師藥品的調劑權這部分其實是沒有違憲的可是對於第二條藥師法施行細則50條對醫療急迫情形的解釋似乎是違憲的這個相關的爭議那基本上在這個第三項理由書裡面"},{"start":24728.436,"end":24740.612,"text":"在並此指明的部分又特別說明當時的大法官會議針對醫藥分業認為這是政策上的立法選擇因此在原則上應以尊重那對這一點"},{"start":24742.589,"end":24758.341,"text":"劉教授,您是不是也有同樣的觀點?好,我想跟委員報告一下當然我並不是醫藥的專家我就儘量嘗試回答事實上在有關於醫藥的調劑權等等這些事情上面我們曾經有兩個解釋"},{"start":24760.242,"end":24772.568,"text":"第1個解釋是應該是4-711號的有關於限制藥師職業處所的那個部分那那個是一個違憲宣告那剛剛委員提到的是4-778號的這個爭議那這個爭議當然就是藥事法102條的爭議"},{"start":24778.27,"end":24800.643,"text":"這號解釋呢他是認為102條第二項是不違憲的因為沒有侵害到醫師的藥品調劑權因為在例外的情況底下還是讓醫師可以有藥品調劑權我的理解是這個樣子的那但是施行細則跟含釋的部分呢對於醫療急迫情形的解釋因為在醫療法裡面並沒有授權"},{"start":24801.483,"end":24827.942,"text":"所以有增加法律所無的限制的那個部分的違憲那這個就是目前的解釋方式那我的理解是說當時醫藥分業的這個做法是搭著我們全民健保制度建構起來的醫藥分業呢它其實的確是有助於病人權利的保障這個是當時政策上面的考量"},{"start":24828.422,"end":24838.019,"text":"因為藥師有藥師的專業那透過藥師的條紀呢可能呢可以再次把關這個醫師他處方上面的用藥合理性等等等這些問題"},{"start":24840.858,"end":24858.664,"text":"4至778號他非常的清楚說這是一個政策問題在政策問題上面其實就是一個立法選擇所以事先機關原則上應該尊重這就是我剛剛前面在回答問題的時候一直說的"},{"start":24859.324,"end":24886.662,"text":"如果是政治部門、行政部門、立法部門在做政策形成的時候衡量各式各樣的資源的考量國家重大政策應該怎麼樣走比較好能夠在立法院達成共識的時候基本上事先者應該要尊重這樣子的共識換句話說採取醫藥分業與否基本上這是一個立法政策的形成"},{"start":24889.884,"end":24899.371,"text":"維持這樣的制度 坦白說 恐怕並不當然會構成違憲那當然這還是必須要看 個案的這個爭議的狀況來決定可是我要講的是說"},{"start":24903.752,"end":24916.657,"text":"即使大法官在判定這個案子合憲之後．他在理由書裡面也同時指出來說．在上開制度未真完備之前．有關機關亦應配合醫藥分業實際發展程度．橫著細真規定．"},{"start":24920.802,"end":24949.473,"text":"也就是呢醫師得例外調劑藥品的範圍是不是足夠讓病人的醫療權益受到維護的這個最高利益能夠獲得確保應該要事實檢討並為合理的調整那基本上呢雖然這個部分的理由呢沒有具強制力但是呢我相信呢這個是將來在政策形成的過程當中大家很有必要去做的一個參考"},{"start":24951.654,"end":24959.157,"text":"謝謝所以其實就是不管完全分頁、部分分頁甚至是不分頁只要不違憲其實就是政策的選擇是好 謝謝"},{"start":24961.823,"end":24987.558,"text":"再過來就是要請教跟這個人工智慧科技發展應用跟人權保障的問題我們知道國科會在今年7月份已經針對人工智慧基本法有了一個預告草案那請問劉教授你對這個草案的內容相關的保障是不是已經有充足這一部分可不可以也請你針對這邊發表一下你對這個草案的觀點"},{"start":24990.661,"end":25014.559,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想這個法律名字叫做《人工智慧基本法》這個基本法的內容如果委員詳細去看的話它其實是非常簡要的它原則上是在針對我們這個國家要發展人工智慧的時候政府應該負擔什麼責任"},{"start":25018.459,"end":25040.282,"text":"對於司部門有什麼樣的要求把一些基本的原則清楚的講出來比如說在資料治理這個部分應該怎麼做在人民的隱私權利的確保這個部分應該怎麼樣以及比如說OECD有一個AI Principles"},{"start":25041.062,"end":25041.182,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25057.869,"end":25083.77,"text":"負責任的AI的社會應該要追求一個以人為中心以人為本的AI使用的社會等等這些問題都去做了一個比較類似於宣示性的以及架構性的規定除此之外這個法律裡面應該也有針對"},{"start":25085.73,"end":25108.587,"text":"這個國家怎麼樣透過好的誘因結構去想辦法引導AI科技的創新的研發跟應用然後同時也能夠確保人民的權益的這個部分做了一些宣示那我想這個法律裡面到底應該有哪些規定"},{"start":25110.152,"end":25126.602,"text":"我覺得這是見仁見智的問題不過我覺得最重要的事情是這個其實只是人工智慧相關法制的立法的第一步而已我想委員也清楚的是今年其實歐盟已經有一個"},{"start":25127.643,"end":25153.13,"text":"非常嚴格、嚴謹、制度井然的一個人工智慧法已經正式通過實行了或許我們沒有辦法一步到位做到像那個樣子但是這個人工智慧基本法所宣示的一些基本原則其實跟歐盟的立法我會說它並沒有相差太遠"},{"start":25154.21,"end":25166.764,"text":"比如說我們的人工智慧基本法裡面也要求說應該要對人工智慧可能帶來的風險做一定程度的管制當然他可能在任何領域都可能有風險的"},{"start":25168.945,"end":25190.308,"text":"甚至我覺得這個人工智慧基本法呢這個將來如果在貴院通過生效之後其實貴院應該做的一個更重要的事情是根據這個人工智慧基本法裡面的那些要求不管是對資料相關的權益的要求"},{"start":25192.31,"end":25193.67,"text":"在這種情況底下就必須要去針對這些問題"},{"start":25220.965,"end":25238.978,"text":"每一個領域可能涉及的作用法去做一一的檢視跟調整讓這些法律能夠一方面促成人工智慧的正向的發展他方面也可以去處理一些風險跟人權保障的問題"},{"start":25242.14,"end":25259.978,"text":"想要再利用時間跟您就教健保資料利用與個資保護權衡的問題這一部分劉教授也發表過非常多的意見不過因為時間的關係另外再找時間跟您就教那其實對於一個大法官的職責在私衡的"},{"start":25260.859,"end":25277.58,"text":"天平兩端,我們期待的就是大法官能夠從這邊得到一個最佳的平衡讓全國的民眾知道大法官在執行這個選擇過程裡面其實是值得保障人民權益的過程當中得到最高的期待"},{"start":25279.022,"end":25306.64,"text":"也麻煩劉教授您這方面的承諾是怎麼樣各位簡短的再說一次我想這個部分我是可以承諾的沒有問題的我想委員也非常的清楚其實我的專業過程裡面其實絕大部分的研究重點是關於人權的保障那我也做過很多人權實務的工作我有我自己的價值跟信念但是呢就像我在我的自傳跟我的資料裡面問卷回覆意見裡面有講過"},{"start":25308.041,"end":25314.528,"text":"我個人的價值跟信念基本上在憲法法庭是必須要透過對這個整個國家"},{"start":25335.213,"end":25362.251,"text":"好 謝謝王振旭委員的詢問也謝謝被提名的劉教授的詢答 謝謝接下來我們請登記第7位徐巧欣委員詢問謝謝主席那我們是不是有請劉被提名人麻煩再請被提名的劉教授請被詢問"},{"start":25367.777,"end":25391.979,"text":"你好那剛才很多位委員對您有這個質詢那都談到說大法官應該要超然獨立那今天我就想要針對您過去的一些表態那來看看是否能夠跟過去的您是沒有改變的那有超然獨立之心首先我想要詢問您過去有沒有質疑過蔡英文前總統的論文"},{"start":25393.878,"end":25415.148,"text":"我想跟委員說明一下我不是質疑蔡總統的論文內容我是質疑蔡總統的論文是不是應該放到國圖的碩士論文博士論文系統上面因為國圖的碩博士論文只是這樣嗎是我們來看一下你過去說什麼好不好"},{"start":25418.851,"end":25441.563,"text":"你說呢,仔細看了某位助理的LSE學位證書後．突然有點好奇．小英出世的博士學位證書上面．到底是寫哪年哪月哪日．LSE校徽或學位證書樣式是否曾經更改．可不可以說明一下．你為什麼不提起他所出世的校徽．跟學位證書有更改的疑慮"},{"start":25443.444,"end":25463.515,"text":"跟委員報告一下我想這個問題呢其實委員可能不清楚就是蔡總統她自己也講過她有申請補發過論文對但是你所說的是你認為LSE的校徽或爵位勝書的樣式是否曾經更改跟你剛剛所說的是不一樣的我們再看下一張齁那你在臉書發文裡面呢寫說"},{"start":25465.436,"end":25466.317,"text":"因為你沒有讓我講完啊"},{"start":25491.776,"end":25492.197,"text":"為什麼你當時要質疑蔡英文總統的職職?"},{"start":25505.196,"end":25522.442,"text":"因為總統提出來的給大家看的紙質的確不是我所認知到我在美國所用的論文的印刷的紙質那我不知道是不是當時的英國的紙是用那樣的紙所以你現在認為蔡英文總統的論文本身是沒有問題的"},{"start":25526.843,"end":25527.823,"text":"我剛剛是在總結您剛剛的說法"},{"start":25558.877,"end":25572.685,"text":"接下來繼續問因為我知道您對於寫臉書很有興趣我本身也是您的追蹤者所以我想要問一下你今天來當大法官你是因為想當官還是為人民做事?"},{"start":25573.685,"end":25592.684,"text":"我非常清楚的是我要實踐一個法律人對一個憲法基本秩序跟基本人權的維護的一個責任那我們看一下你的貼文在有祝應您代表成中免職然後呢去接了WTO副常任代表的時候你說好羨慕啊"},{"start":25593.582,"end":25595.924,"text":"好羨慕是終於有一個機會可以為國家做一點事"},{"start":25611.494,"end":25617.696,"text":"關於蔡英文總統的論文你剛承認了幾件事情是你心裡的疑慮但你其實還有另外一篇臉書的文章寫說學會論文經過公正才有法律效力嗎竟然還有一大堆人相信喔"},{"start":25634.68,"end":25661.349,"text":"這到底是哪位法學大師發明的法律見解而且學位論文為什麼不需要有法律效力這不是給大家製造不必要的麻煩嗎這已經比管爺的臺大法務處幫永齡基金會這個臺團法人主張個人隱私保護權更驚人囉依這個邏輯我寫過的每一本學位論文都無效囉那我的學位也無效嗎出這招的是自己的學位論文有經過公證嗎真是供法學保庫請問這篇文章刪文的理由是什麼"},{"start":25662.315,"end":25689.158,"text":"我不記得我有刪文你刪文了如果刪文的話那基本上委員已經唸出來了長這樣子基本上呢點進去會長什麼好基本上呢他也有可能是誤刪但是呢誤刪啊你相關的所有剛剛的委員全部都刪掉了我都是從內存的找的委員所講的你剛剛說是誤刪委員所講的那些話基本上我都講過我現在的想法還是這樣"},{"start":25690.492,"end":25711.023,"text":"好 那接下來我要問的是關於人權的問題就是因為蔡英文前總統的論文引發了一系列的法律爭議包含是彭文正教授他們當時去打了這個蔡英文前總統的學歷論文的事件那後來我們的政府選擇不採自助的方式用公訴的方式提告"},{"start":25711.443,"end":25730.592,"text":"等於用法務部的關係去偵辦了這個總統是否是假學歷的案件那分案過程當中還把這個簡單的妨礙民意案件變成是用黑金組特別偵查最後彭文正教授們被通緝、被沒收護照請問這個有沒有違反人權之嫌"},{"start":25731.343,"end":25734.686,"text":"好,你也覺得在人權上面,你覺得他不是一個很恰當的這個做法嗎?"},{"start":25757.786,"end":25777.942,"text":"2021��2021年3月31號的時候政府對媒體發布以妨礙民意違反選罷法兩項罪行起訴彭文正這個您剛剛已經回答過了其實他的司法到底判決公不公正這個都是司法的角度但是總統的學歷在所有的民主國家當中應該都是可受公平的"},{"start":25778.342,"end":25797.401,"text":"好那但是呢我想要問如果今天彭文正教授他覺得自己的人權被迫害了要怎麼樣進行救濟他如果申請釋憲的話你作為一個大法官被提名人你認為彭文正教授的人權受到迫害的釋憲你會以何看法看待之"},{"start":25798.381,"end":25815.787,"text":"我想這個就要看彭教授到時候是用什麼樣的方式釋憲那如果未來我是大法官的話當然我沒有辦法在這個地方就清楚的針對具體的個案去做我心中的表達但是我要講的是"},{"start":25817.358,"end":25833.995,"text":"我們在大法官的這個職權行使上面呢基本上當然必須要看彭教授是不是呢來提出所謂的法規範的違憲審查或是裁判的違憲審查當然我有講嘛"},{"start":25834.696,"end":25856.421,"text":"我有說他有提出幾個要點就是說為什麼他的妨礙名譽罪然後會變成是通緝跟沒收護照我針對這個部分去詢問您從人權的角度來說您的看法您就是要看呢他到底比如說如果他是用妨礙名譽罪的這個部分呢來申請的話那就要看呢大法官第一個在程序上要不要受理"},{"start":25856.861,"end":25859.123,"text":"如果過去有關於妨礙名譽的這個部分的大法官的解釋有補充的必要的話有可能會被受理"},{"start":25881.944,"end":25904.3,"text":"有可能會被受理,那你個人的角度來說,你覺得應該要被受理嗎?我覺得要看情況,因為要看官員真的事實,所以我了解了那再來呢,我們在這個質詢台、備詢台上,大家都是互有禮貌的但如果我在這裡說你是瘋老女人的話,你能夠接受嗎?"},{"start":25905.667,"end":25932.549,"text":"我覺得這個是可受公平我現在是在接受委員的審查我想委員也不至於講出這樣子的話但是你卻稱呼管中敏教授管中敏前台大校長為偷老男人我並沒有那你是怎麼評價他的這個到底是誰在對號入座我也不知道你在臉書回嗆說不回應"},{"start":25934.611,"end":25953.82,"text":"老男人的風化那你是在指涉誰呢我有很多男性朋友都是老男人啊所以你的意思是你剛剛講的那一句話不是管宗敏教授我只稱管教授吧所以不是囉不是啊那是別人你的意思是說你講的是別人所以這篇新聞是假新聞"},{"start":25954.62,"end":25956.342,"text":"那你願意在你的臉書上澄清說這句話並不是在講管中銘嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":25972.395,"end":25972.915,"text":"來 我知道了再來"},{"start":25995.469,"end":26020.523,"text":"管校長說你曾經攻擊他數個月 寫一大堆造謠抹黑他的貼文那我去查了一下大概有幾個部分那比方說你說在某一天你說當臺大決定要讓管中銘擔任校長的時候你的臉書發文說免語同意又來了這些人大概真的以為他們都看不懂他們在合演一齣超級搞笑劇"},{"start":26021.443,"end":26043.048,"text":"另外當這個決定下來的時候你回答說你的臉書寫說上級機關可以撤銷下級機關的決定公文發出根本不是理由這是法學序論的程度吧果真是言好言滿本年度最大的假新聞當時對於後來臺大聘任管中銘為校長的時候"},{"start":26044.568,"end":26070.34,"text":"你是這麼評論的,那如今你的看法是一致的嗎?呃,對不起,聘任管中閔道校長的,不是台大,是教育部,當時的教育部合併的。我問的是,台大也同意嘛,台大本身是同意的,然後教育部合併嘛,所以我問的是這件事情,你還是持先前的看法,說是年度最大的假新聞,言好言滿嗎?我過去的看法都沒有改變。"},{"start":26071.781,"end":26084.195,"text":"你過去的看法都沒有改變所以你仍然覺得這是一個搞笑劇臺大的校長就是教育部就是在演了一個搞笑劇民進黨過去的政府演了一個搞笑劇是沒有錯是沒有錯沒有問題你知道"},{"start":26086.778,"end":26110.906,"text":"然後呢你還說呢這個學生的抗議就是新五四運動啊乾脆建立個沒有學生只有爺們的國立大學還有呢你這個對他的很多的質疑都讓他在臉書上寫說你呢連續污衊跟造謠他昨天他也非常氣憤的說你要當大法官這件事情他無法認同那到現在來說你的想法應該還是一樣的對吧我跟委員報告"},{"start":26112.947,"end":26130.733,"text":"法學序論的程度啊所以你現在回頭過去看當時民進黨的教育部之下做出的決定是連法學序論都沒有的程度是嗎是沒有錯好的我們接下來看你還有非常多的這些我覺得我們可以考慮的問題下一個要問的是我們現任的立委王逸傳"},{"start":26131.533,"end":26155.724,"text":"那他先前呢就是有這個被傳出說是不是有監控民眾的事情呢那你在原書上是怎麼寫的你問說沒有涉及個資不可能吧還有即使不是監控個人監控各種不同群體的活動正當性基礎又是什麼法律依據何在呢交叉比對型態也無限監控類型也無限目的到是什麼很重要好所以呢"},{"start":26156.224,"end":26169.652,"text":"現在立法院也立案國人通訊及隱私遭非法監控調查委員會也就是這個王逸川的這個清秒案如果有受害者或疑似受監控之人提出視線你的觀點是什麼你對王逸川當時的這個說法的觀點是什麼"},{"start":26171.653,"end":26193.795,"text":"我對於這個案子我所提供的發言以及法律意見我至今沒有改變然後呢如果呢貴院在合乎憲法要求的狀況底下成立調查委員會我想我們也都尊重貴院的職權那如果有人來釋憲的話就是看"},{"start":26195.857,"end":26209.753,"text":"我會從是不是呢國家的保護義務不足的這個部分呢來檢視這個問題是所以當時呢你提出了這八大的見解這是你提出的嗎是沒有錯所以呢我們從裡面可以看齁"},{"start":26210.734,"end":26211.795,"text":"我剛剛已經說過了這個呢其實呢我們如果從調查權的觀點來看"},{"start":26239.548,"end":26243.21,"text":"我問的是您個人的看法是您針對現在的現況是否認為我們的國家在個人資料上面的保護有所不足"},{"start":26261.658,"end":26275.964,"text":"我認為是相當不足的所以這個部分就有請貴院必須要好好的保護大家我們會的因為我們看下一個問題要問你的也是一樣這個問題是很肯定因為顧立雄部長當時有高階將官的個資被外流"},{"start":26283.107,"end":26293.466,"text":"國防部回應說已經風險管控將檢討疏失責任然後呢你回答說是看不懂齁你分享之後你說看不懂可不可以向我們解釋一下看不懂的原因跟理由是什麼"},{"start":26294.902,"end":26314.598,"text":"我想這個部分的問題是在於當時我不是很確定這個案的情節但是我似乎回想一下就是當時國防部應該是用公文去撤回他原先所要求做的事情"},{"start":26315.439,"end":26315.679,"text":"再來下一題"},{"start":26335.093,"end":26349.706,"text":"下一題其實我也想問說就是說我們的民主社會上面那對於這個反滲透法來說當時在修這個反滲透法2019年的時候那您曾經說過我們國家的這個反滲透法以反叛國法的"},{"start":26350.086,"end":26351.007,"text":"反滲透法的意義是什麼?"},{"start":26369.652,"end":26390.411,"text":"反滲透法基本上是為了維護我們台灣的自由民主秩序而制定的它在某種意義上面的確有它的重要性我覺得我們如果要制定這樣的法律立法者有共識的話那就應該制定有效的法律"},{"start":26390.871,"end":26419.884,"text":"所以你認為現行的反滲透法是無效的法律我覺得他的效能上面來說其實呢是不足以達到他要的立法目的OK那你當時還有寫說一心擁戴勒動處處反滲透法草案想趕快通過的小朋友好像是在講沈伯洋委員啦你建議他們可以考慮讀讀各國歷史免得自己未來變成當代陳文成時才後悔莫及這個部分可以解釋給我們聽是什麼意思嗎"},{"start":26421.065,"end":26425.453,"text":"請問一下在哪裡在右邊這個最右邊我有幫你框起來了對這個就是"},{"start":26428.744,"end":26457.638,"text":"這個就是呢我認為在立法上面呢不夠嚴謹的問題不夠嚴謹的立法容易成為執政的濫用的工具所以任何人都有可能變成受害的對象那您可以再進一步細講您覺得就是說我們反滲透法要怎麼在保護國家安全然後以及在這個避免執政黨濫用的情況之下相輔相成成為一部適用的法律就比較好的一個法律"},{"start":26458.018,"end":26471.083,"text":"您的見解是什麼我覺得基本上在執行的時效上面必須要有更嚴密的管控跟管制工具的運用舉例來說"},{"start":26473.707,"end":26497.769,"text":"舉例來說我覺得現在我也很難真的舉出一個例子除非有一個個案那從這個法律通過到現在其實呢在執行效果上面並不是太好這個也是事實那確實因為這個反滲透法變成是在選舉期間的時候那就有很多的包含是在地的里長然後他們出國啊他們可能到大陸去啊"},{"start":26498.109,"end":26503.852,"text":"臺灣上上下下有非常多的里長只因為他們曾經去過大陸旅遊那可能有些人接受落地招待有些人根本是有付錢但是被懷疑所以就以反滲透法然後把他們送辦"},{"start":26521.28,"end":26536.719,"text":"那想要請問您對於這樣的事情你覺得有沒有違反人權從一個大法官被提名人的角度來說跟人權的關聯性我想這個必須要看個案的狀況那就是要看這些里長就我剛剛講的就是去旅遊然後呢"},{"start":26537.219,"end":26540.963,"text":"我剛剛講的那樣子的個案來說的話﹖他的人權有沒有被因為反受滲透法的關係﹖"},{"start":26553.015,"end":26554.836,"text":"謝謝許巧欣委員的質詢也謝謝被提名人劉靜怡、劉教授的備選"},{"start":26591.701,"end":26618.896,"text":"報告全院委員會．我們對大法官．提名人．劉靜怡教授．的尋答部分．到此為止．也謝謝劉備提名人．靜怡教授．練習的答詢．另外．有關各黨團．對備提名人．所提書面問題．及備提名人．的書面答覆之相關資料．我們列入公報記錄．報告全院委員會．針對司法院院長．副院長及5位大法官．被提名人之資格．"},{"start":26619.966,"end":26630.706,"text":"及是否施政相關事宜均已審查完畢本案現在作以下決議提報院會以記名投票表決我們現在散會"}]}},{"id":"158110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d9cf2fbd01b3a93e70341d36cd1de3accdb9bda307ae229b3dd4df15546ecd50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"15:32:50 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書後．突然有點好奇．小英出世的博士學位證書上面．到底是寫哪年哪月哪日啊．LSE校徽或學位證書樣式是否曾經更改．可不可以說明一下．你為什麼不提起他所出世的校徽．跟學位證書有更改的疑慮"},{"start":90.156,"end":113.291,"text":"跟委員報告一下我想這個問題其實委員可能不清楚就是蔡總統她自己也講過她有申請補發過論文對但是你所說的是你認為LSE的校徽或職位證書的樣式是否曾經更改跟你剛剛所說的是不一樣的我們再看下一張那你在臉書發文裡面寫說要求論文的紙質"},{"start":113.991,"end":114.351,"text":"因為你沒有讓我講完啊"},{"start":138.763,"end":138.823,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":151.883,"end":169.894,"text":"因為總統提出來的給大家看的紙質的確不是我所認知到我在美國所用的論文的印刷的紙質那我不知道是不是當時的英國的紙是用那樣的紙所以你現在認為蔡英文總統的論文本身是沒有問題的我不知道"},{"start":174.617,"end":175.757,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧"},{"start":203.882,"end":205.704,"text":"你今天來當大法官你是因為想當官還是為人民做事?"},{"start":220.383,"end":239.371,"text":"我想非常清楚的是我要實踐一個法律人對一個憲法基本秩序跟基本人權的維護的一個責任好那我們看一下你的貼文在有祝應您代表成中免職然後呢去接了WTO副常任代表的時候你說好羨慕啊"},{"start":240.989,"end":247.274,"text":"吳建輝教授是我的學弟好羨慕不是好羨慕他去當官好羨慕是終於有一個機會可以為國家做一點事"},{"start":258.464,"end":262.605,"text":"關於蔡英文總統的論文你剛剛承認了幾件事情是你心裡的疑慮但你其實還有另外一篇臉書的文章寫說學會論文經過公正才有法律效力嗎竟然還有一大堆人相信喔"},{"start":281.389,"end":308.055,"text":"這到底是哪位法學大師發明的法律見解而且學位論文為什麼不需要有法律效力這不是給大家製造不必要的麻煩嗎這已經比管爺的臺大法務處幫永齡基金會這個臺團法人主張個人隱私保護權更驚人囉依這個邏輯我寫過了每一本學位論文都無效囉那我的學位也無效嗎出這招的是自己的學位論文有經過公證嗎真是供法學保護請問這篇文章刪文的理由是什麼"},{"start":309.022,"end":335.865,"text":"我不記得我有刪文你刪文了如果刪文的話那基本上委員已經唸出來了長這樣子基本上呢點進去會長這樣好基本上呢他也有可能是誤刪但是呢你相關的所有剛剛的委員全部都刪掉了我都是從內存的找的委員所講的那些話委員所講的那些話基本上我都講過我現在的想法還是這樣"},{"start":339.763,"end":357.732,"text":"關於人權的問題就是因為蔡英文前總統的論文引發了一系列的法律爭議包含彭文正教授他們當時去打了這個蔡英文前總統的學歷論文的事件後來我們的政府選擇不採自訴的方式用公訴的方式提告"},{"start":358.152,"end":377.301,"text":"等於用法務部的關係去偵辦了這個總統是否是假學歷的案件那分案過程當中還把這個簡單的妨礙名譽案件變成是用黑金組特別偵查最後彭文正教授被通緝、被沒收護照請問這個有沒有違反人權之嫌"},{"start":378.049,"end":381.392,"text":"你也覺得在人權上面你覺得他不是一個很恰當的這個做法嗎?"},{"start":404.493,"end":424.649,"text":"2021��2021年3月31號的時候政府對媒體發布以妨礙民意違反選罷法兩項罪行起訴彭文正這個您剛剛已經回答過了其實他的司法到底判決公不公正這個都是司法的角度但是總統的學歷在所有的民主國家當中應該都是可受公平的"},{"start":425.049,"end":444.105,"text":"好那但是呢我想要問如果今天彭文正教授他覺得自己的人權被迫害了要怎麼樣進行救濟他如果申請釋憲的話你作為一個大法官被提名人你認為彭文正教授的人權受到迫害的釋憲你會以何看法看待之"},{"start":445.085,"end":462.491,"text":"我想這個就要看彭教授到時候是用什麼樣的方式釋憲那如果未來我是大法官的話當然我沒有辦法在這個地方就清楚的針對具體的個案去做我心中的表達但是我要講的是"},{"start":463.507,"end":464.067,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":481.4,"end":503.127,"text":"我有說他有提出幾個要點就是說為什麼他的妨礙名譽罪然後會變成是通緝跟沒收護照我針對這個部分去詢問您從人權的角度來說您的看法您就是要看呢他到底比如說如果他是用妨礙名譽罪的這個部分呢來申請的話那就要看呢大法官第一個在程序上要不要受理"},{"start":503.407,"end":532.216,"text":"那您會受理嗎?如果呢?那看他的提出的方式以及提出的主張就是我剛剛講的啊就是用妨礙名譽罪然後呢最後被通緝以及沒收護照這三件事情如果呢也針對你就針對我這裡的假設來回答就可以了如果過去過去有關於妨礙名譽的這個部分的大法官的解釋有補充的必要的話有可能會被受理有可能會被受理那你個人的角度來說你覺得應該要被受理嗎?"},{"start":532.856,"end":547.885,"text":"徐巧芯 呃 我覺得要看情況 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要看 因為要"},{"start":552.353,"end":579.255,"text":"我覺得這個是可受公平我覺得可以接受我現在是在接受委員的審查我想委員也不至於講出這樣子的話是的 我不至於講出這樣子的話但是你卻稱呼管中敏教授管中敏前台大校長為偷老男人你沒有我並沒有那你是怎麼評價他的這個到底是誰在對號入座我也不知道你在臉書回嗆說不回應"},{"start":581.317,"end":600.526,"text":"老男人的風化那你是在指涉誰呢我有很多男性朋友都是老男人啊所以你的意思是你剛剛講的那一句話不是管宗敏教授嗎我只稱管教授吧所以不是囉不是啊那是別人你的意思是說你講的是別人所以這篇新聞是假新聞"},{"start":601.326,"end":601.646,"text":"我沒有講的話讓"},{"start":619.099,"end":619.119,"text":"再來．"},{"start":642.352,"end":667.228,"text":"館校長說你曾經攻擊他數個月﹖寫一大堆造謠抹黑他的貼文那我去查了一下大概有幾個部分那比方說你說在某一天你說當臺大決定要讓館中銘擔任校長的時候你的臉書發文說免語同意又來了這些人大概真的以為他們都看不懂他們在合演一齣超級搞笑劇"},{"start":668.149,"end":689.755,"text":"另外當這個決定下來的時候你回答說你的臉書寫說上級機關可以撤銷下級機關的決定公文發出根本不是理由這是法學序論的程度吧果真是言好言滿本年度最大的假新聞當時對於後來臺大聘任管中銘為校長的時候"},{"start":691.255,"end":694.036,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":718.487,"end":720.269,"text":"你過去的看法都沒有改變：徐巧芯"},{"start":735.807,"end":758.055,"text":"這個學生的抗議這是新五四運動啊乾脆建立一個沒有學生只有爺們的國立大學還有呢你這個對他的很多的質疑都讓他在臉書上寫說你呢連續污衊跟造謠他昨天他也非常氣憤的說你要當大法官這件事情他無法認同那到現在來說你的想法應該還是一樣的對吧我跟他講的什麼好笑劇啊"},{"start":759.656,"end":759.876,"text":"李維王議員"},{"start":778.24,"end":802.431,"text":"那他先前呢就是有這個被傳出說是不是有監控民眾的事情呢那你在原書上是怎麼寫的你問說沒有涉及個資不可能吧還有即使不是監控個人監控各種不同群體的活動正當性基礎又是什麼法律依據何在呢交叉比對型態也無限監控類型也無限目的到是什麼很重要好所以呢"},{"start":802.931,"end":816.336,"text":"現在立法院也立案國人通訊及隱私遭非法監控調查委員會也就是這個王逸川的這個清秒案如果有受害者或疑似受監控之人提出視線你的觀點是什麼你對王逸川當時的這個說法的觀點是什麼"},{"start":818.357,"end":840.499,"text":"我對於這個案子我所提供的發言以及法律意見我至今沒有改變然後呢如果呢貴院在合乎憲法要求的狀況底下成立調查委員會我想我們也都尊重貴院的職權那如果有人來釋憲的話就是看"},{"start":842.561,"end":870.556,"text":"我會從是不是呢國家的保護義務不足的這個部分呢來檢視這個問題是所以當時呢你提出了這八大的見解這是你提出的嗎是沒有錯所以呢我們從裡面可以看齁那NCC所謂各自保護究竟是指什麼又是由誰保護有各自不足的問題或其他權益發生問題的時候人民應該如何得知或尋求救濟那這點應該是您相當關心的問題我想要了解一下喔"},{"start":870.836,"end":897.827,"text":"那你對於這種資料使用的行為那你覺不覺得他應該要被更進一步的去調查以免他的個資人民的個資被政治人物或政黨所濫用我剛剛已經說過了這個呢其實呢我們如果從調查權的觀點來看是貴院呢要針對還有一般民眾是都可以針對呢所謂呢是不是這個國家的法律對人民的個人資料的保護有所不足的一個"},{"start":898.727,"end":920.333,"text":"我問的是您個人的看法是您針對現在的現況是否認為我們的國家在個人資料上面的保護有所不足我認為是相當不足的所以這個部分就有請貴院必須要好好的保護大家我們會的因為我們看下一個問題要問你的也是一樣"},{"start":921.253,"end":940.17,"text":"當呢那個這個我對你是很肯定啦因為顧立雄這個部長當時又有這個高階將官的個資被外流國防部回應說已經風險管控將檢討疏失責任然後呢你回答說是看不懂你分享之後你說看不懂可不可以向我們解釋一下看不懂的原因跟理由是什麼"},{"start":941.608,"end":961.307,"text":"我想這個部分的問題是在於當時我不是很確定這個案的情節但是我似乎回想一下就是當時國防部應該是用公文去撤回他原先所要求做的事情"},{"start":962.128,"end":962.368,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":981.796,"end":996.409,"text":"下一題其實我也想問說就是說我們的民主社會上面對於這個反滲透法來說當時在修這個反滲透法2019年的時候那您曾經說過我們國家的這個反滲透法以反叛國法的"},{"start":996.789,"end":997.089,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":1016.358,"end":1037.117,"text":"反滲透法基本上是為了維護我們台灣的自由民主秩序而制定的它在某種意義上面的確有它的重要性我覺得我們如果要制定這樣的法律立法者有共識的話那就應該制定有效的法律"},{"start":1037.577,"end":1066.59,"text":"所以你認為現行的反滲透法是無效的法律我覺得他的效能上面來說其實呢是不足以達到他要的立法目的OK那你當時還有寫說一心擁戴勒動處處反滲透法草案想趕快通過的小朋友好像是在講沈博洋委員啦你建議他們可以考慮讀讀各國歷史免得自己未來變成當代陳文成時才後悔莫及這個部分可以解釋給我們聽是什麼意思嗎"},{"start":1067.771,"end":1072.155,"text":"呃請問一下在哪裡在右邊這個最右邊我有幫你框起來了對呃這個就是"},{"start":1075.453,"end":1104.344,"text":"這個就是我認為在立法上面不夠嚴謹的問題不夠嚴謹的立法容易成為執政的濫用的工具所以任何人都有可能變成受害的對象那您可以再進一步細講您覺得就是說我們反滲透法要怎麼在保護國家安全以及在避免執政黨濫用的情況之下相輔相成成為一部適用的法律就比較好的一個法律"},{"start":1104.724,"end":1105.645,"text":"您的見解是什麼?舉例來說"},{"start":1120.413,"end":1144.455,"text":"舉例來說我覺得現在我也很難真的舉出一個例子除非有一個個案那從這個法律通過到現在其實在執行效果上面並不是太好這個也是事實那確實因為這個反滲透法變成是在選舉期間的時候那就有很多的包含是在地的里長然後他們出國啊他們可能到大陸去啊"},{"start":1144.735,"end":1145.015,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":1167.984,"end":1183.423,"text":"那想要請問您對於這樣的事情．你覺得有沒有違反人權．從一個大法官被提名人的角度來說．跟人權的關聯性我想這個必須要看個案的狀況那就是要看呢這些里長就我剛剛講的就是去旅遊然後呢"},{"start":1183.923,"end":1185.984,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":1199.153,"end":1199.594,"text":"徐巧芯"}]}},{"id":"158109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2dda6a71e7285a8d2e0341d36cd1de3accdb9bda307ae229b3555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"15:11:51 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burden這樣子的過度的負擔的這個狀況那我覺得就必須要呢是資源以及個案來看看怎麼樣去處理這個問題我希望這樣子可能有答覆到委員的提問"},{"start":576.209,"end":605.051,"text":"好,非常感謝劉教授因為如果將來爭議走到需要釋憲的階段的話可能就是如劉教授所提到的我們期待大家都能夠用很前瞻的思維來討論這個問題好,謝謝那第二個部分就是要請教有關於這個醫藥分業跟釋制第778號解釋的這個內容的部分這個爭議其實主要就是醫藥分業的情形之下如何能夠保障我們就醫"},{"start":610.735,"end":633.111,"text":"主要是在藥施法第102條限制了醫師藥品的調劑權這部分其實是沒有違憲的可是對於第二條藥施法施行細則50條對醫療急迫情形的解釋似乎是違憲的這個相關的爭議那基本上在這個第三項理由書裡面"},{"start":634.372,"end":646.567,"text":"在並此指明的部分又特別說明當時的大法官會議針對醫藥分業認為這是政策上的立法選擇因此在原則上應以尊重那對這一點"},{"start":648.564,"end":664.174,"text":"劉教授,您是不是也有同樣的觀點?好,我想跟委員報告一下當然我並不是醫藥的專家我就儘量嘗試回答事實上在有關於醫藥的調劑權等等這些事情上面我們曾經有兩個解釋"},{"start":666.195,"end":678.541,"text":"第1個解釋是應該是4-711號的有關於限制藥師職業處所的那個部分那那個是一個違憲宣告那剛剛委員提到的是4-778號的這個爭議那這個爭議當然就是藥事法102條的爭議"},{"start":684.243,"end":706.615,"text":"這號解釋呢他是認為102條第二項是不違憲的因為沒有侵害到醫師的藥品調劑權因為在例外的情況底下還是讓醫師可以有藥品調劑權我的理解是這個樣子的那但是施行細則跟含釋的部分呢對於醫療急迫情形的解釋因為在醫療法裡面並沒有授權"},{"start":707.455,"end":733.903,"text":"所以有增加法律所無的限制的那個部分的違憲那這個就是目前的解釋方式那我的理解是說當時醫藥分業的這個做法是搭著我們全民健保制度而建構起來的醫藥分業它其實的確是有助於病人權利的保障這個是當時政策上面的考量"},{"start":734.383,"end":743.99,"text":"因為藥師有藥師的專業那透過藥師的條紀呢可能呢可以再次把關這個醫師他處方上面的用藥合理性等等這些問題"},{"start":746.831,"end":764.639,"text":"4至778號他非常的清楚說這是一個政策問題在政策問題上面其實就是一個立法選擇所以事先機關原則上應該尊重這就是我剛剛前面在回答問題的時候一直說的"},{"start":765.279,"end":792.637,"text":"如果是政治部門、行政部門、立法部門在做政策形成的時候衡量各式各樣的資源的考量國家重大政策應該怎麼樣走比較好能夠在立法院達成共識的時候基本上事先者應該要尊重這樣子的共識換句話說採取醫藥分業與否基本上這是一個立法政策的形成"},{"start":795.859,"end":805.345,"text":"維持這樣的制度 坦白說 恐怕並不當然會構成危險當然這還是必須要看 個案的爭議的狀況來決定可是我要講的是說"},{"start":809.724,"end":822.64,"text":"即使大法官在判定這個案子合憲之後．他在理由書裡面也同時指出來說．在上開制度未真完備之前．有關機關亦應配合醫藥分業實際發展程度．橫著細真規定．"},{"start":826.755,"end":855.446,"text":"也就是醫師得例外調劑藥品的範圍是不是足夠讓病人的醫療權益受到維護的這個最高利益能夠獲得確保應該要事實檢討並為合理的調整那基本上雖然這個部分的理由沒有具強制力但是我相信這個是將來在政策形成的過程當中大家很有必要去做的一個參考"},{"start":857.19,"end":865.048,"text":"謝謝所以其實不管完全分業、部分分業甚至是不分業只要不違憲其實就是政策的選擇"},{"start":866.889,"end":893.53,"text":"好 謝謝再過來就是要請教跟這個人工智慧科技發展應用跟人權保障的問題我們知道國科會在今年7月份已經針對人工智慧基本法有了一個預告草案那請問劉教授你對這個草案的內容相關的保障是不是已經有充足這部分可不可以也請你針對這邊發表一下你對這個草案的觀點"},{"start":896.613,"end":920.531,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想這個法律名字叫做《人工智慧基本法》這個基本法的內容如果委員詳細去看的話它其實是非常簡要的它原則上是在針對我們這個國家要發展人工智慧的時候政府應該負擔什麼責任"},{"start":924.432,"end":946.15,"text":"對於司部門有什麼樣的要求把一些基本的原則清楚的講出來比如說在資料治理這個部分應該怎麼做在人民的隱私權利的確保這個部分應該怎麼樣以及比如說OECD有一個AI Principles"},{"start":946.87,"end":946.89,"text":"張文貞議員"},{"start":963.835,"end":989.721,"text":"負責任的AI的社會應該要追求一個以人為中心以人為本的AI使用的社會等等這些問題都去做了一個比較類似於宣示性的以及架構性的規定除此之外這個法律裡面應該也有針對"},{"start":991.706,"end":1014.48,"text":"這個國家怎麼樣透過好的誘因結構去想辦法引導AI科技的創新的研發跟應用然後同時也能夠確保人民的權益的這個部分做了一些宣示那我想這個法律裡面到底應該有哪些規定"},{"start":1016.105,"end":1032.575,"text":"我覺得這是見仁見智的問題不過我覺得最重要的事情是這個其實只是人工智慧相關法制的立法的第一步而已我想委員也清楚的是今年其實歐盟已經有一個"},{"start":1033.616,"end":1059.086,"text":"非常嚴格、嚴謹、制度井然的一個人工智慧法已經正式通過實行了或許我們沒有辦法一步到位做到像那個樣子但是這個人工智慧基本法所宣示的一些基本原則其實跟歐盟的立法我會說它並沒有相差太遠"},{"start":1060.166,"end":1072.714,"text":"比如說我們的人工智慧基本法裡面也要求說應該要對人工智慧可能帶來的風險做一定程度的管制當然他可能在任何領域都可能有風險的"},{"start":1074.901,"end":1096.261,"text":"甚至我覺得這個人工智慧基本法呢這個將來如果在貴院通過生效之後其實貴院應該做的一個更重要的事情是根據這個人工智慧基本法裡面的那些要求不管是對資料相關的權益的要求"},{"start":1098.423,"end":1114.553,"text":"作權、智慧產產權相關的要求對於創新的鼓勵或者是甚至委員可能最清楚的就是AI運用在醫療產業裡面可能會產生哪些風險可能會對人跟機器之間的責任區分醫療正義的問題都會產生問題在這種情況底下就必須要去針對這些問題"},{"start":1126.94,"end":1151.782,"text":"每一個領域可能涉及的作用法去做一一的檢視跟調整讓這些法律能夠一方面促成人工智慧的正向的發展他方面也可以去處理一些風險跟人權保障的問題的確本來想要再利用時間跟您就教健保資料利用與個資保護權衡的問題"},{"start":1154.604,"end":1173.015,"text":"這部分劉教授也發表過非常多的意見不過因為時間的關係另外再找時間跟您就教那其實對一個大法官的職責在失衡的天平兩端我們期待的就是大法官能夠從這邊得到一個最佳的平衡"},{"start":1174.016,"end":1189.379,"text":"全國的民眾知道大法官在執行這個選擇過程裡面．其實是值得保障人民權益的過程當中．得到最高的期待．那也麻煩劉教授您這方面的承諾是怎麼樣．"},{"start":1191.4,"end":1218.667,"text":"我會想這個部分我是可以承諾的沒有問題的我想委員也非常的清楚其實我的專業過程裡面其實絕大部分的研究重點是關於人權的保障那我也做過很多人權實務的工作我有我自己的價值跟信念但是呢就像我在我的自傳跟我的資料裡面問卷回覆意見裡面有講過我個人的價值跟信念基本上在憲法法庭是必須要透過"},{"start":1220.848,"end":1221.489,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"158103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158103","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d7e5b7c37040768f20341d36cd1de3acc873f201a01320ee35f23dfb7261517ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:12:33 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tart":483.32,"end":506.332,"text":"為什麼今天多次被判處死刑的劉姓凶犯五度判死最後改判免死確判最高法院告訴我啊他免死確判告訴大家什麼你知道嗎你知道嗎你知道委員您說的是最高法院怎麼告訴大家為什麼前面都判死最後免死啊"},{"start":507.265,"end":518.448,"text":"他可能有基於個案的原因因為依據大法官憲法第8號判決意旨依據這個實質廢死的判決他免死確判了一輩子作業英才、善良正直的一個女老師他還從此冤成大海再也沒有伸張正義的機會這位凶犯就是隨機盯上這位買菜的女老師啊"},{"start":538.267,"end":566.756,"text":"用鐵鎚重擊他信心咬壞他的身體然後虐殺他但是呢大法官是他的救星我要跟教授說我前面說的這四個案子通通免死通通都是在大法官做出實質廢死判決之後才開始做出免死的判決"},{"start":569.526,"end":598.445,"text":"這些案子你通通不知道但是你非常心安理得跟大家講說廢除死刑啊你支持廢除死刑啊我從前面的質詢跟看到你的書面回答你也認同大法官的憲法第8號判決吧對不對我個人認為他這個憲法第8號判決的話因為叫憲法法庭的判決是你認同嗎三個字那麼難答我告訴你"},{"start":600.438,"end":627.972,"text":"我拜託你你認同這個實質廢死判決你主張廢除死刑有兩句話我建議你你把這兩句話媽媽感到對不起你成長過程中沒有盡到母親的責任但還是很愛你我們母子倆度過顛沛流離度過饑寒交迫度過別離再相聚卻度不過詐騙集團的凌虐時節"},{"start":629.246,"end":656.763,"text":"你把這兩句話一個亡死者跟亡死的家屬你每天晚上睡前默念三遍你再去睡覺吧你知道為什麼你可以這麼坦坦然心無掛懷掛念的跟我講你主張廢除死刑跟我講你認同大法官實質廢死的判決我告訴你為什麼因為你前面已經告訴你通通不知道"},{"start":659.352,"end":671.054,"text":"這些人的傷這些人的痛這些人的冤這些人的苦你沒有一個知道你到現在為止你沒有一個知道你當然可以這麼淡然說不用判死刑阿我再問你阿2014年5月在台北捷運隨機殺人造成4人死亡24人受傷的政捷被判處死刑是冤獄嗎"},{"start":686.769,"end":714.145,"text":"目前為止看起來不是一個冤獄我對邀請的基本概念是這樣子來來來目前法務部在對於這個政協死刑定業執行死刑的時候你怎麼對媒體說的啊你痛批今天法務部他應該要再審非常上述或四線的程序才能執行死刑以避免冤獄啊"},{"start":715.558,"end":715.899,"text":"這你講的吧"},{"start":722.642,"end":749.403,"text":"因為即使一個判決之後的話：他還是有後面的救濟程度很好啊：你剛剛跟我講你認為不是冤獄啊：但是那時候你認為是冤獄啊：縱目睽睽向犯案：4條寶貴的生命：無理由的提早結束：24個人：一輩子受傷的人：留下終生的陰影：人生共怒的一個罪行：三審定焉"},{"start":750.95,"end":766.581,"text":"你竟然可以用冤獄來去想要幫他開脫你到現在還是認為我們不該執行死刑不該判政協死刑嗎我問你啦沒關係我分開問你現在還是覺得不該執行死刑嗎我告訴你廖教授啊"},{"start":777.671,"end":798.12,"text":"我剛剛前面聽徐曉欣在質詢我很難過從頭到尾無言以對你是今天廢死聯盟的重要成員你到現在為這兩個這麼簡單的問題你答不出來難道就是會心心念念想要通過大法官提名你就答不出來"},{"start":800.589,"end":822.014,"text":"我再問你一次鄭捷被判死刑你支持嗎答不出來他就是判決死刑的一個狀態嘛對啊就是你現在的法律制度跟未來的法律制度就廢除死刑或與否的話是在我們在思考未來我們的法律制度會怎麼樣比較好答不出來"},{"start":830.1,"end":859.29,"text":"答不出來政協服務法後換民進黨執政廖教授你擔任過廢除死刑推動聯盟的執行委員法務部逐步廢死推動小組成員吧沒錯吧是長年來推動廢死到這邊來講話模模糊糊沒有關係我想請問你喔你知道這8年多來法院總共審理多少名殺人犯判了多少名死刑執行了幾名"},{"start":861.853,"end":867.837,"text":"八年多七百多名殺人犯只有判兩名被執行並被執行等於每350名殺人犯出現超過350位被害人才會判一個死刑"},{"start":882.435,"end":909.384,"text":"然後相較於2000年到2015年平均每年有3.25位三審判死2016年5月民進黨執政後平均每年只有0.22位三審判死每年判死的人數減少93%你蠻有成績的,真的在逐步廢死然後大法官的8號判決還說判死要更嚴格過去大法官是不敢判死"},{"start":910.951,"end":938.998,"text":"現在大法官的判決出來就是難以判死所以在馬上短短期間4件案子全部是免死判死了以後要再重來一遍喔沒錯吧是有些案子是可以在這個程序委齋大法官啊照這樣趨勢啊我直接跟你斷言啦我斷言好幾次了我希望你推翻我賴總統任內一件三審判死都不會有一件死刑都不會執行你相不相信"},{"start":940.731,"end":969.143,"text":"我個人沒辦法做預測沒有關係我告訴你我們就等著看只是剩3年了啦我都等著看然後你在這邊前面答詢你說大法官沒有實質廢死你說得出口我問你喔今天有一個人他去參加射箭比賽那你剛才講說你是射箭比賽的那個評鑑委員說沒問題我們任何人都可以參加射箭比賽"},{"start":970.222,"end":992.991,"text":"但是你必須兩隻手砍斷你再去參加射箭比賽那我說你剝奪實質剝奪我參加射箭的機會我說沒有啊我准你參加射箭比賽啊只是你不准帶兩隻手進去啊什麼叫做實質廢死這樣還不叫實質廢死什麼叫實質廢死請問他說死刑合憲但定了18羅漢同仁證死刑現在要判已經很難了"},{"start":1001.488,"end":1030.278,"text":"大法官憲法判決之後馬上就活生生的好幾個案子就改判了然後我再醒覺一下大法官的憲法判決出來之後很多都用不是犯罪情節最嚴重的情況用這個理由啊改判了嘛對不對是有的是終於啊你終於有個知道了中山智洋徐偉展多次性侵傷害女乘客犯罪情節是不是最嚴重"},{"start":1031.786,"end":1055.797,"text":"我幫你回答你不知道張南寶殺害同居女友母親同居人姦殺80歲老婦算不算情節罪人之罪我幫你回答啦你不知道那你要插嘴可以啦你不知道吧是不是能我說明剛才我說明就是說現在我們情況應該是兩個重點第一個所謂犯罪最嚴重的情況的話我只問你是不是嘛"},{"start":1058.073,"end":1063.757,"text":"劉龍山強姦一位檳榔稀屍後活生生用火燒他的下體跟臉部再用鐵鎚打到腦漿外衣後焚屍劉華坤刑竊不存殺害網咖女老師並監屍連受害了年僅6歲的孩子也不放過把他吊死在醫處裡面"},{"start":1082.776,"end":1106.861,"text":"王洪偉死因求愛被拒．用西瓜刀橫砍女大生176刀後棄屍．林玉如為了詐領保險金賭債．把親生母親推下樓摔死．毒殺丈夫跟婆婆我上面舉例的就是這37位．被死刑判決定業．現在在你口中．贏得改判機會的37位囚犯"},{"start":1109.722,"end":1137.991,"text":"這些被大法官實質廢死判決出來以後這37個人等到了究刑就是跟你一樣想要廢死的大法官廖教授你還曾經在2016年這個《刑法修正適同處死刑或無期徒刑爭議公聽會》當中表示終身監禁不得假釋的刑罰不值得考慮 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Map比對,這塊地是否就是您所擁有的?"},{"start":107.995,"end":109.216,"text":"請問這一塊地作為洗車場是否合法或是有什麼相關規定?"},{"start":133.842,"end":156.563,"text":"陳主任有跟我說他有去就是依據各種法律規定進行有各種法律規定進行是那你現在看我們看一下你現在看這樣子的這個圖上面你認為他是一個合法的你看得出來他是合法的還是違法的嗎"},{"start":159.777,"end":165.47,"text":"不是據陳樹文你是大法官被提名人啊你對法律沒有了解嗎你還需要問你的租客嗎"},{"start":166.604,"end":169.886,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧"},{"start":192.847,"end":193.087,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":207.068,"end":222.848,"text":"所以你根本就都一直都知道嘛你知道嗎你們這早就已經被檢舉過很多次了來我們看一下打勾的那一塊你們是用這樣子的方式所謂的洗車場就是一個違章建築上面那個鋪棚就是不可以的而且我們很多居民都已經檢舉你了"},{"start":224.836,"end":245.691,"text":"結果呢 遲遲不改善遲遲不改善呢109年就查爆了一直到112年才拆除上面的頂棚而且現在他其實在部分的時間裡面他依然是違建你作為一個大法官的被提名人你自己的財產都違法了你要讓我們怎麼相信你做一個大法官你能夠公平公正你有什麼意見要說的嗎"},{"start":250.106,"end":269.653,"text":"因為我只有共有的一部分有什麼你講話太小聲了剛剛媒體都跟我們說根本聽不清楚蔡委員你有提到就是說那個我是只有共有的不是嘛共有但你剛剛我問你做什麼你也說是洗車場你也說洗車場的人有告訴你說這個油怎麼樣怎麼樣所以你已經知道這個地方是怎麼樣的地方你也知道它曾經被查爆嗎"},{"start":270.95,"end":271.21,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":292.308,"end":316.24,"text":"你們用伸縮棚架去規避稽查你知道這多可惡的一個知法犯法的行為嗎?你說你有法學常識,你說你懂法律所以,你用這個所謂的伸縮棚架去違避稽查知道稽查人員要來的時候把棚子收起來在坐洗車、茶要洗車的時候把棚子拉開來一個知法犯法的人憑什麼做我們國家的大法官呢?"},{"start":318.08,"end":344.028,"text":"你剛剛已經說了喔你已經說他們後來有改善變成是伸縮的喔所以你是知道這件事的喔你不要告訴我說你之前不知道你現在才知道喔你剛剛已經說出來了喔這叫做知法犯法玩法越懂法律的人越知道怎麼玩法這就是你廖福特你的財產是做這樣子的欸洗車的時候把他打開來就好像沒有違規機場員員來的時候把他收起來卻罰不到你"},{"start":346.055,"end":347.657,"text":"請問這個洗車場有沒有開發票?請問這是不是一個合法的免用統一發票?"},{"start":365.909,"end":383.59,"text":"是是你懂不懂法律啊你你不知道你連統一發票免開統一發票的收據長怎樣你都不知道所以你連一般生活市井小民知道的法規你都不知道你跟我說你要當大法官被你要當大法官"},{"start":385.469,"end":409.147,"text":"你看一下再看一下再看一次這張免誘統一收據我是早餐店出生的小孩子我都知道這個就不是一個合法的免誘統一發票收據它只該有一個收據專用章然後什麼都沒有寫就提供給你上面的數字隨你填這就是你家租給人家的洗車場啊你還說業者告訴你說沒有違規啊你自己的財產自己租給別人都沒有去了解"},{"start":410.748,"end":438.968,"text":"莫名其妙再來我們看一下洗車場的統一發票收據我非常覺得奇怪是你們你做大法想要做大法官的人還不知道這就是涉嫌逃入罪正常的免用統一發票的發票上面要什麼免用發票專章負責人小章然後呢要把品項單價總價都要寫好這個左邊的叫做免用發票專用"},{"start":442.884,"end":444.806,"text":"還沒完喔我告訴你還沒完喔你們這裡還沒完喔"},{"start":461.681,"end":476.252,"text":"我覺得非常可恥做一個大法官的被提名人想要當大法官的人自己的土地上面到處都是違規好 接下來看起來你很愛賺錢嘛上午是洗車場嘛那你知道他晚上會變什麼嗎"},{"start":477.978,"end":495.391,"text":"你下午租給騎車場對不對?下午租給誰?晚上租給誰?我不完全知道。你不完全知道?你的土地上在做什麼?你不完全知道?那我告訴你,因為這是我的選區,所以我非常清楚,很多人檢舉,你們晚上在做停車場,來我們看一下。請問,在這塊土地上面,做停車場之用,你看那邊有個P有沒有?做停車場有沒有違法,還是它是合法的?"},{"start":507.629,"end":535.685,"text":"請問你違法還是合法?如果是合法為什麼合法?如果是違法為什麼違法?因為他看起來有沒有作為一個所謂的停車場還是說土地的臨時的租用這個細節我並不清楚並不清楚上面就給你寫一個批了啦你是沒有眼睛是不是啊上面就告訴你說這是停車場啦然後你跟我說你並不清楚然後你也知道這是你家的地"},{"start":536.82,"end":555.647,"text":"好 我告訴你你這個停車場沒有向臺北市的交通局去登記它就是一個違規的停車場我們看一下影片這是2024 10月22喔才剛拍的喔來我們看一下影片開到你們那裡你看這個打開的框架就是違建啊"},{"start":558.075,"end":561.257,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":580.915,"end":603.708,"text":"收費你剛剛說你不知道這個地方是有收費沒收費我告訴你了他在收費而且你知道嗎你們可惡的地方在哪裡你們沒有收費標準來因為有時候給人家收50塊有時候給人家收70塊這是在google評論上面就可以找到的這家洗車場的評價飽受批評啊大家怎麼說真的是很扯停進去才說50塊是月評的零停要70塊"},{"start":606.269,"end":631.949,"text":"停車費用不老實門口一小時70門口貼50進去才跟你說是月租然後呢不要被停車的門口50片了停好了等故意停好了才告訴人家是70塊你家上午的這個洗車場已經是違禁了已經違法逃漏稅用不對的發票了晚上還坐非法的洗車停車場還跟人家亂收錢"},{"start":634.531,"end":640.934,"text":"外面寫0停50停進去70而且你根本沒有向臺北市交通局去申請這裡作為合法停車場好 收據也一樣來我們看一下你看得懂他寫什麼嗎停完車以後給你一個這個你看得懂嗎我一開始看不懂並沒有大概只看到那個500的數字500是什麼500是說押金500你要停進是說要先給押金500塊才停啊你覺得很合理嗎"},{"start":666.741,"end":667.121,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":692.676,"end":704.606,"text":"這個讓我再釐清一下好不好因為我不用釐清我告訴你就有違規了你作為大法官我剛剛講成這樣你還不知道我沒有違法喔那你做什麼大法官啊你一般基本的法學常識都沒有做什麼大法官啊這是最簡單的吧在床哪一個人不知道啊免用防疫發票怎麼開不知道啊有沒有你申請一個停車場沒有去交通局做申請會違法不知道啊蓋一個棚架出來然後呢是違建不知道啊這有這麼難嗎"},{"start":723.148,"end":733.204,"text":"你法律要學到哪裡去了好再來如果說都不知道我就算了民眾陳情非常多次了來我們看民眾的陳情"},{"start":734.178,"end":752.631,"text":"民眾呢這個上面T10-112-0907這是檢舉編號像臺北市的1999多次的陳情上面就寫說你們在停車然後呢而且你們會讓車子就開上去那個人行道這些都是違規的因為你沒有去申請使用"},{"start":753.391,"end":767.413,"text":"不斷的去澄清 拆不掉就是拆不掉 不停業就是不停業我剛剛給你看的影片 是我這一個月每天都去停車 每天都去洗車留下來的紀錄陳秦涵怎麼寫的"},{"start":768.935,"end":783.36,"text":"為了多搜集證據前往拍攝去遭到有人現場制止後來旁邊的人就說這個業者後台很硬因為後台是現任不分區提名委員會的委員廖姓就是在說你就是在說你"},{"start":785.964,"end":788.026,"text":"請問你當了大法官你還得了?真的是還得了?"},{"start":815.939,"end":836.073,"text":"我再問你一次我再問你一次再給你一次機會我剛剛所述的以上是不是都違法違規違法他確實有一些應該說的一些哪一些你重述一次我剛剛跟你講了整個案情你現在你聽完我剛剛跟你分析的你現在一個一個指出你哪裡違規哪裡違法了我給你時間講"},{"start":839.281,"end":867.566,"text":"因為剛才大概提到幾件的事項那我是不是在之後我來稍微了解之後才了解這是你家的房子之後才了解我就講嘛你從109年就被查爆的東西嘛你112年才想說要改善而且還是用一個違法、知法、犯法、玩法的方式來改善平常他一樣我們回到剛才那個我們去停車的那個圖再播一次這個影片"},{"start":871.308,"end":887.756,"text":"好按暫停再播一次按暫停我要給你看那個棚子你們的改善方式那個棚子有沒有違法有沒有違規是不是違建你說你要伸縮的就沒事了嗎你把它拉出來的時候它就是違建啦"},{"start":889.657,"end":901.335,"text":"這是一種規避法律的方式啊你作為一個大法官你竟想著要如何規避法律啊所以你說沒有啊我們已經改成伸縮的啊平常都是拉開的有人來稽查的時候說起來"},{"start":902.517,"end":903.437,"text":"再來我們繼續往NCC走"},{"start":932.776,"end":948.971,"text":"NCC當時剛也有很多人有問了來我想請問你在鑑定人的評鑑報告裡面所說認為NCC中天不應該取得換照的理由當時你的鑑定書上面的理由是什麼"},{"start":950.822,"end":974.44,"text":"呃,我跟你講,我是依據廣播電視法：我說,我說你的鑑定書的書面理由是什麼?他有沒有違規的事項,有違規事項有多少那當然也包括正面的,比如說他會有沒有互相好,你確實沒錯,你說,你說因為,你做鑑定人的時候認為中天應該不能得到換照的原因第一個,違規裁罰案件過多"},{"start":976.547,"end":999.717,"text":"那你當時擔任中天鑑定人的意見書裡面你說違規裁罰案件過多結果呢最後他們到行政法院裡面呢你認為你現在還認為他們的你現在還認同你當時的判斷嗎你認為他們以現在的狀況進到行政法院裡面去這麼多的案子最後都被行政法院判NCC敗訴這叫做違規裁罰過多嗎"},{"start":1001.823,"end":1019.75,"text":"我當時看到的情況是這樣子啊你當時看到的情況是這樣子但請問你有沒有每一個案子去審視說他到底有沒有違規那可能是當時NCC給的東西是錯誤的啊你作為一個大法官被提名人你當時你作為一個法律專家你沒有自己的意見NCC跟你講什麼就算什麼"},{"start":1020.51,"end":1043.692,"text":"你沒有覺得說他們提出的這些所謂的好像有違規的地方根本就沒違規你給出的意見書就是這樣要到行政人家行政法院裡面法官判下去的時候都知道沒有違規你做一個鑑定人的時候你看了所有的資料這個人家行政法官看的資料跟你看的資料是一樣的你就拼了說人家違規過多結果人家打到了行政法院的時候法院認為沒有問題"},{"start":1045.418,"end":1057.022,"text":"那你要怎麼讓大家相信你是公正客觀?等於是你們直接這一群人這一伙人直接被行政法院打臉捏再來你還有另外一個意見書不換照的理由是什麼?你記得嗎?你不完全記得然後我告訴你你認為報導特定政治人物比例過多"},{"start":1070.231,"end":1076.504,"text":"來,請問你當時的意見書裡面認為中天報導特定政治人物比例不過多的特定政治人物是哪一位?"},{"start":1078.835,"end":1104.042,"text":"為什麼這是你寫的東西耶不是啦我問的是你自己寫的東西你說108到109年之間中天新聞不當監理的事件有14件其中包括報導特定政治人物比例過多我問的是你寫下的這句話裡面所謂的報導特定人物政治人物是哪一位政治人物"},{"start":1105.117,"end":1129.175,"text":"我現在沒有辦法回答你現在沒有辦法回答你自己寫的東西你沒有辦法回答你是失意還怎麼樣當時有當時的時空背景當時有當時的時空背景但特定人物就那個啊因為你已經寫了是特定政治人物嘛所以就是有一個特定政治人物嘛我問你當時你所說的特定政治人物是誰嘛我現在還有1分36秒你不回答出來我們就這樣耗著特定政治人物是誰"},{"start":1130.322,"end":1153.212,"text":"我因為沒有記憶那麼清楚,我想我不應該...放那張投影片!左邊這個是你自己寫的,其中包括...我再講一次,你不回答我們就這樣耗著沒關係。其中包括中天新聞台報導特定政治人物比例過多,我只不過問你你當時所稱的特定政治人物是哪一位政治人物?"},{"start":1155.529,"end":1166.018,"text":"你怎麼樣?為什麼?那哪幾個人?幾個人?你說嘛幾個人?哪幾個人?哪幾個特定政治人物?說啊!你就把他名字說出來嘛!你今天都在這個備詢台上為什麼這麼不勇敢呢?你知道嗎?所以你忘記了?好我問你!是不是韓國瑜?"},{"start":1184.334,"end":1201.726,"text":"你是不是在指韓國瑜你不確定你寫了什麼你自己寫了一個鑑定書然後寫了特定政治人物當時大家在討論的所謂的特定政治人物在新聞報導上都是說你們認為特定報導韓國瑜太多然後你現在告訴我你寫的東西你自己不知道你是怎樣要不要去看個醫生你的記憶能力是不是有問題"},{"start":1208.081,"end":1208.641,"text":"謝謝徐委員"},{"start":1239.056,"end":1244.791,"text":"何新淳委員之詢問已書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請羅志強委員詢問"}]}},{"id":"158099","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158099","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d17f232339226af570341d36cd1de3accb5c157df040caea33c75c7788f2af55f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:09:38 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28.635,"text":"我向委員報告就是說以從國際人權條約的發展來看的話它大概是分為兩個階段第一個階段是在把它線說被提名人因為時間的關係本席希望聽到提名人的方向、理念所以目前的狀態您是被提名人是大法官的被提名人所以到目前台灣的社會氛圍以及在我們的這個宪判之八號之後那現在的狀況你仍舊堅定的支持廢死嗎"},{"start":129.597,"end":155.367,"text":"這我個人過去的學術研究來看的話過去是那請問本席也跟你說你的背景了那現在呢因為社會的脈動慢慢從把它限縮到比較小的嚴謹的範圍然後在下一個階段邁向廢除死刑那我相信台灣的社會目前為止剛好處於的第一個階段那它可能未來在第二個階段是否要進行到廢除死刑的話應該可以透過社會更多的互動討論來脈動"},{"start":158.268,"end":172.973,"text":"如此的說明是不是可以把你解讀為目前台灣的現象社會氛圍他還是不適於去全面的廢除死刑可以這麼解讀你剛才的說明嗎"},{"start":173.733,"end":188.773,"text":"以目前為止台灣的社會現象的話我相信還是有非常多的民眾支持死刑那以憲判是第8號的話他是並沒有廢除死刑而是把他嚴謹的在嚴謹的也就是實質廢除現在的社會大眾所說的你聽到嗎"},{"start":189.774,"end":206.592,"text":"我了解就是說因為這個部分是長期有民意探索長期有疑慮所以本席請把麥克風拉高一點那麼所以本席還是問你我們討論的第一個階段你現在在這一些的氛圍你都非常的清楚你現在仍然堅定支持廢死嗎?"},{"start":207.677,"end":235.987,"text":"我個人還是剛才所說的在現在這個階段大家嚴謹那我的了解憲判是第8號的話他是就是參考公民政治權利公約第6條還有第36號一般性意見那為什麼會參考公民政治權利公約第6條跟第36號一般性意見就是我們在民國89年的時候有制定公民與政治權利公約及經濟社會文化權利公約的施行法把公民政治權利公約國內法化"},{"start":236.627,"end":259.101,"text":"那因此他要求必須要實行限縮於最嚴重的犯罪同時經過人權事務委員會解釋之後這個最嚴重的犯罪的話應該限縮於故意殺人的部分可以聽到你對於國際的公約等非常的清楚但是我們認真回到我們台灣我們自己的國家"},{"start":259.941,"end":272.977,"text":"目前的現狀在這個判決後限縮了死刑的一個適用範圍已經對判決出現了實質的影響舉例監察女老師的嫌犯在五度判死"},{"start":274.144,"end":275.425,"text":"昨天的新聞你有看到嗎?"},{"start":297.369,"end":319.287,"text":"我大約了解你有看到被害者家屬的哭求嗎?他呼籲大法官們不要廢死你有聽到嗎?你有沒有看到?我大約知道這個新聞你有看到那你對這些家屬你對這些家屬的哭號目前的社會氛圍你對這些家屬有什麼話說呢?"},{"start":320.285,"end":344.863,"text":"我跟委員報告我想在一個社會發生不幸的事件特別是嚴重的犯罪的時候我們應該有兩部分處理第一個我們應該處罰加害者特別是嚴重的犯罪處罰加害者是充分死刑改為無期徒刑加害者的哭求你說你看到了所以本席要請教你對於這些被害者的哭求"},{"start":346.468,"end":368.38,"text":"你有什麼話對他們說另外一方面我們的社會應該要建構一個被害人的以及他家屬的保護以及再過去對他的一些援助幫忙的制度所以我們現在有一些犯罪被害人的保護法那如果我們這個保護的制度以及協助制度能夠去加強也就是我們應該是兩個面向"},{"start":369.901,"end":371.802,"text":"你怎麼樣嚴處呢?你被害者家屬的痛苦"},{"start":392.183,"end":417.596,"text":"開行的呼籲現階段臺灣請大法官們不要廢死你聽到了沒你聽到了所以你一方面說要對這個加害者必須要嚴處那你目前的氛圍是是更鬆啊但是對於受害者你說要怎麼保護他他已經是被由這個"},{"start":422.95,"end":441.44,"text":"我都激動的說不出啊我很難過啊因為已經有死刑來改判為無期徒刑被害者的家屬的心聲我希望你可以去回應他們啊你願不願意正面的回應"},{"start":443.139,"end":458.975,"text":"我相信我們的社會都不希望有悲劇的發生那不過跟各位報告就是說現在我們的制度是大法官也認為憲法法庭也認為此行是合憲的只是說他要嚴謹的順限縮範圍以及嚴謹的制度"},{"start":461.437,"end":476.426,"text":"那我們的法律規範其實是特別是殺人罪的話實質判決已經這樣子的判決已經實質的影響到社會的氛圍我也請你去冷靜去思考之因為如果誠如你說的"},{"start":478.361,"end":496.953,"text":"讓被害者能夠得到保護讓加害者要嚴懲但是您剛剛所說的論述剛好是相反這樣子的社會幸福率是絕對不夠的接下來本校請問你曾經說過終身監禁不得假釋的刑罰那不值得考慮"},{"start":498.274,"end":511.833,"text":"不值得考慮你反對死刑你也反對終身監禁不得假釋請問在先判之8號之後的狀況你是否仍舊不支持新增的無期徒刑不得假釋的刑責請問"},{"start":514.447,"end":529,"text":"我如果記憶沒有錯的話我當時發言說那個無期徒刑不得假釋那個刑責是在一個公聽會的討論的過程當時的提案是說要對於如果殺害兒童的話"},{"start":529.941,"end":545.869,"text":"他要把刑罰本來是從比如說10年以上有期徒刑然後無期徒刑跟死刑然後限縮只剩下死刑跟無期徒刑也就減少其他的部分不論你是在工業會或者是怎麼樣都會留下記錄"},{"start":546.909,"end":548.33,"text":"你的模擬回答已經是社會"},{"start":572.581,"end":599.464,"text":"目前的氛圍沒有辦法接受的因為八成的民意八成的民意是支持不能廢死的請你聽清楚那所以我要呼籲我們看到八成反廢死的民意看看台灣目前社會的實際反應看看被害者的痛苦不要以人權殖民讓受害者惡度的傷害你認同吧"},{"start":600.645,"end":629.825,"text":"感謝委員的指教那我們想一起來思考這整個他們社會的脈動不要讓受害者惡毒的傷害你都不願意正面回應當然這是我們共同的希望這是我們共同的希望還好你補充所以本期要強調加害人權的時候你在強調加害人權的時候那你更要注意要更要注重我們整個善良者的一個權益善良者的一個權益非常的重要"},{"start":630.645,"end":658.144,"text":"接下來本席要跟你討論NCC這個連連敗訴的問題被提名人你曾經擔任了中天換照審查的鑑定人你當時以中天新聞台被開罰的件數範圍跟罰款很多的這些理由批評中天更說中天是危害的兒童少年身心的健康危害公共秩序善良風俗或者是他自撥新聞違法事實查證的原則後來"},{"start":659.305,"end":680.987,"text":"中天關台了 中天關台了 寫下了我國媒體呢 被關台的案例但是問題來啦 你鑑定完你罵完啦 結果呢 中天對於這個法則呢他提出了 提起了 這個行政訴訟 已經21連勝 也就是NCC法處"},{"start":682.108,"end":705.36,"text":"但是被法院打臉 被法院打臉21次的敗訴 終天免罰在這樣情況之下 請問當時你的鑑定的依據是什麼你當時這些財主如果都是免罰那你還會一樣的做出走向關台的這個鑑定嗎 請做說明"},{"start":708.908,"end":726.366,"text":"我擔任個案的鑑定人只是一個個案的鑑定人後續的所有個案的話我並不了解細節那我當然已經說明過了你要甩鍋嗎你就是鑑定人啊鑑定人就要提出意見啊提供參考嘛當時你是這麼樣的一個方向嘛"},{"start":730.98,"end":758.546,"text":"是當時我剛才已經說明了就當時的這個個案的話我是他有一個法律推論的脈絡這個法律推論的脈絡的話包括廣播電視法、廣播電視法也就是你當時的鑑定所以本席要請教你當時鑑定的依據是什麼你現在已經NCC21連敗啊當時鑑定的是依據廣播電視法廣播電視法它有基本的換照的要件"},{"start":759.787,"end":788.035,"text":"這是立法院通過的那因此鑑定人的話必須要依據廣播電視法的換照的要件去看各種的狀況那我剛才說過我們鑑定人的最主要責任是依據廣播電視法的要件去看有正面有負面的你告訴我說依據廣播電視法來依據那本席再請教如果當時這些裁罰都是免罰你還是一樣會做出走向關台的這個鑑定嗎我不能夠做鑑定那個結果"},{"start":789.279,"end":814.028,"text":"本期告訴你鑒定不是結果你的提供鑒定你提供參考嗎我鑒定的意見還是一樣啊我剛才說了原則是一樣還是一樣依據廣播電視法來本期請教你既然告訴我還是一樣那你認為關台的結果是對還是不對因為你是大法官的提名人請以你現在的身分告訴我告訴本期你認為這個結果關台是對還是錯"},{"start":817.116,"end":831.644,"text":"我沒有辦法判斷是對或錯因為我是鑑定人我只能去看他的這個要件是否符合那不論正面或負面我都要訴說那你的訴說你認為是對還是錯"},{"start":836.067,"end":862.201,"text":"我個人的情況是我依據廣播電視法的要件看到正面跟負面的情況你對於因否裁罰難道沒有判斷嗎你依據廣播電視法的這個方向結果答案是連連被打臉所以你是一味的偏向當時的NCC嗎還是你根本不同意我願意跟你講還是你根本不同意現在法院的判決"},{"start":863.681,"end":882.006,"text":"我個人的了解是其實我的建議意見現在網路上還可以查得到我如果沒有理解錯誤的話那換句話說NCC做出的決定被法院整個打臉的時候那麼本席再一次請教你認為是不是NCC被法院打臉"},{"start":884.288,"end":902.673,"text":"本來本席認為你的學術涵養是非常的高本席希望能夠聽到一些論述但是你還是沒有辦法正面去回應所以我希望以下我們要討論的議題你能夠正面來回應"},{"start":903.573,"end":917.392,"text":"好 我們來看看政治背景跟司法獨立的這個問題因為之所以會提到你的監禁人的過往是因為你的政治背景跟記錄都可能讓人認為你可以必備司法獨立"},{"start":919.658,"end":942.737,"text":"這個特別的獨立性的這個符合大法官那所以呢因為你不只是長期的親綠你根本就是民進黨的高官因為你擔任過民進黨中央黨部仲裁委員你還是民進黨2024年不分區立委提名委員會的名單之一那麼你也擔任過這個賴清德先生就任黨主席的建交人那很多外界的人質疑"},{"start":943.738,"end":972.498,"text":"副院長提名進總主委大法官提名這個這個民進黨的高層那民進黨把憲法法庭當成是自己開的嗎一般民眾看到這樣子的一個背景他都非常質疑他並不符合大法官的獨立超然的要素那你要如何的來說服民眾在你大法官的職務上面你可以保持政治中立並保持大法官在裁決重大案件的時候不受政治影響請做說明"},{"start":974.494,"end":988.247,"text":"我剛才說過就是民進黨仲裁會的話他是一個司法的機制不要解釋因為大家很清楚請問你要如何說服社會大眾你如果成為大法官你要怎麼樣政治中立"},{"start":988.948,"end":1017.486,"text":"你在這個採訪的時候不受政治的影響請做說明我擔任仲裁會的委員本來就是政治中立的我們並沒有介入或是涉入任何的黨務好 你好一個政治中立那我就要告訴你我要告訴你也提醒提名人法律不是為政治服務的它更不能成為酬庸或者是有關係就沒關係部分黨派超然中立呢一定要謹記在心"},{"start":1019.195,"end":1035.282,"text":"是當然是好一個是所以我也希望在擔任上大法官的時候你不是只有聽從賴清德先生也不是只有聽從民進黨的賴議大法官黨議大法官可以承諾嗎當然接下來可以承諾我們來討論貪污的問題立場的問題"},{"start":1039.344,"end":1058.9,"text":"民進黨執政的時候多次傳出了這些貪污跟違法的爭議讓社會大眾有很大的一個疑慮但是我們看到目前為止民進黨的內部或高層的貪污我們看到社會大眾對於司法機關的處理不管是它的速度"},{"start":1059.8,"end":1081.593,"text":"或者是結果都表示疑慮在這樣的情況之下就陳儒臺研綠能的前董事長陳啟玉重大的案件臺南地檢申請羈押但是到了法院他說什麼他罪證不足所以就當庭釋放然後呢在看告的時候呢才會這個這個這個因為他不到庭所以呢在11月4號才發布通這個通緝"},{"start":1084.975,"end":1105.282,"text":"那院檢雙方遭質疑的時候就是說你沒有科技監控你也沒有延遲而且延遲開庭你縱容了這些縱容這些犯罪者可以脫逃在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教社會大眾的這些判決你認為有道理嗎"},{"start":1107.24,"end":1135.849,"text":"我想社會一定會關心各種的可能的貪污你認為有道理嗎當然社會會關心這個貪污的案件這是他們的道理社會大眾有道理嗎你認為社會大眾的質疑有道理嗎就是他一定會關心各種的可能的你認為有沒有道理社會大眾關心一定是有道理的一定是有道理好一個有道理所以本期要請教你認為司法院的角色要怎麼樣去改善這些案件的處理呢請做說明"},{"start":1136.626,"end":1143.672,"text":"請針對你現在是被提名者提出你的論述本席願意時間給你說明你要就你自己的一個論述嘛你一直提到所有的相關機關難怪很多人說你是高層啊"},{"start":1164.325,"end":1186.83,"text":"你是高官啊你怎麼不講你的論述只有一直在講機關怎麼樣的、總統府怎麼樣的你現在是大法官的提名者嘛願意給你時間說明啊因為它是個案檢察官的偵查還有個案法院的判決這個部分的話應該由獨立的司法機關包括檢察官跟法院去做處理我們應該要尊重司法的獨立"},{"start":1187.91,"end":1209.614,"text":"不要你大法官啊大法官的職責大法官要釋憲啊你這麼說就你完全沒有責任啊你當一個大法官都跟你都不相關啊從頭到尾你都沒有表達你自己的論述到底你現在還支持不支持死刑會不會終極死刑廢死你通通都不回答你通通都沒答出啊"},{"start":1213.268,"end":1231.213,"text":"所以本席再次請教你會不會繼續的推動終極廢死現在大概以現在狀況我剛才說的我們就處於大概第一個階段是把死刑限縮到那個非提名人請看看社會的氛圍民眾的需求"},{"start":1240.784,"end":1243.254,"text":"謝謝楊委員也謝謝貝廷宇人接下來請張祺凱委員詢問"},{"start":1276.628,"end":1279.852,"text":"德甲出現．貝提名人請調貝提名人答詢早貝提名人"}]}},{"id":"158101","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158101","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d77e326b2987b47ad0341d36cd1de3accb5c157df040caea3a5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:31:18 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評鑑不存在這是一個更離譜的還有第二句話你們還搬出說司法院曾經讚良李柏道任內改革有功你是寫法律的這何無邏輯嗎改革有功就可以霸凌嗎"},{"start":150.506,"end":179.549,"text":"改革有功就可以霸凌嗎?李博道可以霸凌他的女工友、霸凌他的理科長?你們的報告裡面竟然說司法院說他任內改革有功所以憑藉不成立改革有功的人就可以霸凌別人嗎?這兩個點是不是都很嚴重?你現在是站在霸凌者那一方怎麼能夠同意你當的大法官之後?"},{"start":180.609,"end":182.895,"text":"你會捍衛人權嗎?捍衛被霸凌者嗎?"},{"start":184.441,"end":184.461,"text":"張啓楷議員"},{"start":215.681,"end":220.422,"text":"你現在如果通過了大法官你現在是到大法官會議裡面去你是一樣的態度嗎?"},{"start":240.287,"end":262.958,"text":"你有沒有捍衛我們的人權嗎?有沒有捍衛、保護這個被霸凌者嗎?是,因為我再次說明,它真的是一個合意制的情況我不應該說出那個合意制的過程跟內容這是我不應該做的事情那我們的意見就透過這個意見去呈現"},{"start":264.249,"end":266.23,"text":"你一直在強調你捍衛人權當然你看到兩個人被霸凌了"},{"start":287.642,"end":310.066,"text":"你都沒有那個勇氣站出來幫他們講話我們怎麼相信你當了大法官之後你有那個道德勇氣貫徹你所謂捍衛人權嗎保障被霸凌者呢來我繼續看這次提名裡面很多人在討論的是你的政黨色彩你現在到底要準備要當憲法的守護神或者是守護者你是民進黨中央黨部仲裁委員會的主委"},{"start":311.291,"end":339.654,"text":"你剛講的銀彈繃輕,民進黨執政黨的中央評委會不是這麼簡單的你在給我回答的這個問卷裡面你說無幾職你不參加政黨活動你看一下這個照片這張照片賴清德接任民進黨黨主席你是兼教人欸很重要欸第二個這是不黨務活動黨主席的"},{"start":343.384,"end":350.078,"text":"賴清德從代理主席陳其邁．所上接下的印信就職典禮這是你黨務活動"},{"start":353.24,"end":377.047,"text":"你不參加黨務活動這是黨務活動我跟主席 我跟那個委員報告就是說為什麼會由仲裁會主委來擔任主席的監事人就是因為仲裁會是一個獨立的機制他是一個獨立的機制因此由這個獨立的機制來擔任監事人那你如果定位你是不參與黨務活動的你就不要去參加這個嘛第二個你還參與了民進黨不分區的這個提名作業"},{"start":378.46,"end":403.129,"text":"民進黨很重要你看一下你看這個媒體裡面對你的評價是怎麼樣法界人士說對廖福特的評價是很多見解都是台獨就是挺立的台獨派啊你今天站在這邊就是一個機會啊你要解釋清楚你要怎麼去化解人民對你的這個餘力啊政黨身材這麼重現在大法官本來形象很好為什麼現在一落千丈變成執政黨的打手嘛"},{"start":405.015,"end":411.559,"text":"跟委員報告就是我剛才強調的就是因為他是一個獨立的機制那我進一步說明比如說仲裁會的委員的話他其實是由仲裁會委員自己去"},{"start":434.667,"end":435.928,"text":"我更關心的是你看一下這個圖"},{"start":461.377,"end":487.144,"text":"你身為中天幻照案的鑑定人7位鑑定人你看這樣一個時間序10點30分你們7個人都在除了你之外有沈博洋、林烈琴你看這些有功的人現在都當民進黨的立法委了你也坐在那邊我關心的是你到了下午2點04分的時候你不見了這裡面有兩個很重要的問題喔"},{"start":488.973,"end":517.755,"text":"第一個你有沒有愧對你的職責你是鑑定人啊會開到五點你兩點零四分就不見了你以後當了大法官開會年一半要嘛不去要嘛就像這樣可以大跑嗎這是第一個第二個更重要的這一場換照也很重要嘛中天的法律代表一直問啊他說我想要詢問七位鑑定人啊啊你不在你不只愧對職責這麼重要的事情人家要問你"},{"start":520.847,"end":541.608,"text":"我跟委員說明就我記憶所及因為我當天下午有另外的會議我已經事先跟NCC報告跟說明了說我當天在早上我可以參與可是下午我就沒有辦法參與"},{"start":542.549,"end":571.469,"text":"那我記憶所及的是NCC有跟我們說就我們的鑑定意見是發表鑑定意見那可是並不會跟當事人鑑定人很重要耶 攸關了一個電視台要不要關台而且你要接受人家的詢問嘛 對不對結果那一天你們是負責要接受詢問跟鑑定的人人家要找你的時候你已經不在了這個愧對職守的同時現在什麼 高高在上嗎我們要不要審查要不要讓你過就是看這個嘛"},{"start":572.33,"end":598.856,"text":"我沒有擔心到時候你會不會開會開一半倒跑嘛所以你看我從一開始談已經談了三個案子要嘛你在會上你沒有保護這個被霸凌者然後在這個會上面你沒有讓那個去人家要問你的時候你已經不在了這如果這個兩個場景如果出現在大法官的會議不是只有你丟臉了台灣人會不會很丟臉會不會是我在容許我"},{"start":599.611,"end":625.974,"text":"我説明 剛才我説的第一點我已經事先跟NCC說了 因為我下午有會議第二個我記憶所堅持 當前其實反正你 反正剛剛講的你剛剛那個會你不表示意見你不重要那這個你可以請假就 你不重要嘛反正你隨時可以離開那第二個就是說 如果關一個電視台會不會關台 就以後你當個大法官你要決定多少關於人民生命財產安全的事情你可以隨時請假 可以隨時不在"},{"start":627.486,"end":633.85,"text":"所以你不重要嘛你不重要嘛那天你在不在都不重要嘛可是後來電視台被關台了嘛對不對"},{"start":654.541,"end":681.679,"text":"就算你如果當不當大法官也不重要嘛來我們來談廢死的這個事情廢死昨天有一個很重要的就是大法官宣布實施廢死之後第一個逃死的案子定讞了陳燕翔輪胎行這個縱火案燒死了8條人命8個都是他的至親可是他逃 昨天他變成無期徒刑了家屬非常絕望的吶喊"},{"start":682.881,"end":710.679,"text":"妹們還不算情節最嚴重嗎?妹們還不算情節最嚴重嗎?還有施斗獎你教師隨機殺人啊不算情節重大大家看那個他的先生拿著他的遺物他上個禮拜來立法院參加公聽會"},{"start":712.213,"end":735.009,"text":"他講到韓國瑜院長都忍不住都掉眼淚了我們在下面忍不住都哭了你在強調你是捍衛人權的可是我們現在看到的你捍衛是霸凌者的人權捍衛的是加害人的人權對霸凌者的人權在哪裡受到傷害的家屬的人權在哪裡"},{"start":737.247,"end":759.522,"text":"我先問你一個很重要的情節他們一直在質疑說什麼叫做情節重大對不對你一直在強調你是重視人權的所謂情節重大這個部分是不是我來解釋一下剛剛那兩個案子八條人命不算情節重大你教室那麼悲慘他那個被敲擊那個過程"},{"start":760.376,"end":770.876,"text":"那個密錄器敲的敲擊那個聲音讓人家心疼一個人一條生命的消失的過程多麼悲慘的事情那不是情節最重大嗎?怎麼樣才是情節最重大?"},{"start":777.174,"end":797.57,"text":"公民政治權利公約第6條以及第36號一般性意見他認為他這個詮釋之後認為公民政治公約第6條所謂警戒最嚴重的犯罪的話他應該限縮於故意殺人的部分由這個部分的話在公民政治權利公約的概念的話應該還是可以處死刑"},{"start":798.01,"end":802.153,"text":"法定刑10年以上有期徒刑、無期徒刑、死刑各別個案應該尊重各別法官或合議庭"},{"start":818.794,"end":825.399,"text":"所以就這兩個案子你認為都還不夠嚴重就對了所以你回答非常重要你是會使聯盟以前當過會使聯盟的執行委員"},{"start":845.373,"end":862.252,"text":"所以今天才要讓你去回答這個問題到底現在所有的受難的家屬都在呼喊什麼叫做情節最重大你是廢死聯盟的執行委員大家希望從你嘴巴裡面聽到什麼是情節最重我問的最簡單的這兩個案子算不算情節非常嚴重很重大8條人命"},{"start":863.954,"end":866.915,"text":"所以我剛剛問了你兩個具體的個案嘛現在全民最生氣的第一個"},{"start":885.339,"end":888.902,"text":"我們聽一下好不好那天在講的時候韓國瑜韓院長都流淚了他昨天"},{"start":913.508,"end":929.061,"text":"請錄影下個禮拜播出了我們看加害者心裡是有多痛前面一路判死就實在是他們看到這個是罪大惡極到最後沒有判死改成無期不是根據精神上的對調根據非情節最嚴重之罪我會"},{"start":934.625,"end":944.292,"text":"所以這幾個字特別感冒是因為最高法院他是等到大法官事先出來最高法院"},{"start":945.625,"end":970.901,"text":"兩個禮拜10月04號就馬上根據說不是犯最嚴重之罪所以從事情改成無解是這樣的所以我才要他們講清楚嘛你用這個判你一定要很清楚才對啊或者對我們被害人你怎麼可以心服所以我要他講清楚最高法案他就根據大法官有恃無恐很奇怪一個殺人犯值得國家動用這種"},{"start":972.202,"end":1000.724,"text":"叫做蠻荒之力來替他做這些事情這個國家到底怎樣了我原先是不要饒恕動眾人都已經走了10年了而且現在定焉了後來他們牽動我的是一句話你要為後面的人著想後面的被害人就跟我一樣沒有地位在庭上你沒有辦法解問沒有辦法問對方你的補書書你講不完全你只有一次講話的機會"},{"start":1002.95,"end":1025.608,"text":"法官叫你講話你直接拿來講話講不完全你之後的補述沒有人理你到最後我最高法院委員申請平意因為大法官你說要每一個人都每一個法官必須都贊成廢死或都不贊成都要一致決我就要申請平意被包圍理由是我不是當事人我是被害人家屬而且我是告訴的當事人"},{"start":1027.585,"end":1031.248,"text":"被提名人心事多痛的話當殺人犯從死刑變成無期徒刑的時候他說"},{"start":1058.953,"end":1083.377,"text":"兇手跟法官也判了我們家無期的痛苦無期徒刑那個煎熬跟痛苦有多嚴重昨天同樣站在你這邊的另外一位被批評的人他說他辦過案子他說小孩子被殺害了母親跟著小孩一起死掉了母親跟著他受害的小孩一起死掉了"},{"start":1086.828,"end":1112.441,"text":"在台灣受害者的這個家屬為什麼會像這個剛剛這個他講的沒有地位他講的都哽咽了他還提現在有幾個有多少個案子殺警案的姐姐也出來講你們現在碰到的困難就是以後我們要碰到的所有的家屬都這麼無助結果我們看到的你一直在捍衛這個在幫忙廢死聯盟在幫幫忙加害者的同時你有想過他們的困境嗎"},{"start":1114.377,"end":1115.057,"text":"我當然願意 如果有很好的機會的話"},{"start":1137.734,"end":1164.582,"text":"我會安排這個事情好不好我希望不是只有你所有在幫加害者人權的人你們也要靜下來去面對面好好去傾聽被害者的家屬是多麼的痛苦另外一個我看你這個問卷裡面你對於廢死這個事情你一直都沒有表態嘛我一直在提醒你你是廢死聯盟的執行委員民眾要從你的嘴巴裡面立法院要從你的嘴巴裡面清楚的知道"},{"start":1165.712,"end":1193.297,"text":"會死既然民眾有高達九成的臺灣民眾是不接受的現在臺灣民眾還在怕這種事情現在一堆本來判了死刑的最近可能會放出來人民是多麼的恐懼臺灣的馬路上出現可能有出現殺人魔這個事情要怎麼去補救這都大法官造成一堆的後遺症這問題多嚴重所以希望你站在被害者人權這邊站在被霸凌者這邊好不好不要只有高高在上"},{"start":1195.148,"end":1198.722,"text":"好,謝謝張委員下一位我們請"}]}},{"id":"158100","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158100","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d17f232339226af570341d36cd1de3accb5c157df040caea340d0ad8028109d995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:09:38 - 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28.635,"text":"我向委員報告就是說以從國際人權條約的發展來看的話它大概是分為兩個階段第一個階段是在把他限制說被提名人因為時間的關係本席希望聽到提名人的方向、理念所以目前的狀態您是被提名人是大法官的被提名人所以到目前台灣的社會氛圍以及在我們的這個宪判之八號之後那現在的狀況你仍舊堅定的支持廢死嗎"},{"start":129.597,"end":155.367,"text":"這我個人過去的學術研究來看的話過去是那請問本席也跟你說你的背景了那現在呢因為社會的脈動慢慢從把它限縮到比較小的嚴謹的範圍然後在下一個階段邁向廢除死刑那我相信台灣的社會目前為止剛好處於的第一個階段那它可能未來在第二個階段是否要進行到廢除死刑的話應該可以透過社會更多的互動討論來脈動"},{"start":158.268,"end":172.973,"text":"如此的說明是不是可以把你解讀為目前台灣的現象社會氛圍他還是不適於去全面的廢除死刑可以這麼解讀你剛才的說明嗎"},{"start":173.633,"end":175.015,"text":"嚴謹的也就是實質廢審現在的社會大眾所說的你聽到嗎?"},{"start":189.774,"end":206.592,"text":"我了解就是說因為這個部分是長期有民意探索長期有疑慮所以本席請把麥克風拉高一點那麼所以本席還是問你我們討論的第一個階段你現在在這一些的氛圍你都非常的清楚你現在仍然堅定支持廢死嗎?"},{"start":207.677,"end":235.987,"text":"我個人還是剛才所說的在現在這個階段大家嚴謹那我的了解憲判是第8號的話他是就是參考公民政治權利公約第6條還有第36號一般性意見那為什麼會參考公民政治權利公約第6條跟第36號一般性意見就是我們在民國89年的時候有制定公民與政治權利公約及經濟社會文化權利公約的施行法把公民政治權利公約國內法化"},{"start":236.527,"end":239.749,"text":"好 可以聽到你對於國際的公約等 非常的清楚但是我們認真回到我們台灣 我們自己的國家"},{"start":259.941,"end":272.977,"text":"目前的現狀在這個判決後限縮了死刑的一個適用範圍已經對判決出現了實質的影響舉例監察女老師的嫌犯在五度判死"},{"start":274.144,"end":275.425,"text":"昨天的新聞你有看到嗎?"},{"start":297.369,"end":319.287,"text":"我大略了解你有看到被害者家屬的哭求嗎?他呼籲大法官們不要廢死你有聽到嗎?你有沒有看到?我大約知道這個新聞你有看到齁你有看到齁那你對這些家屬你對這些家屬的哭號目前的社會氛圍你對這些家屬有什麼話說呢?"},{"start":320.285,"end":344.863,"text":"我跟委員報告我想在一個社會發生不幸的事件特別是嚴重的犯罪的時候我們應該有兩部分處理第一個我們應該處罰加害者特別是嚴重的犯罪處罰加害者是充分死刑改為無期徒刑加害者的哭求你說你看到了所以本席要請教你對於這些被害者的哭求"},{"start":346.468,"end":368.38,"text":"你有什麼話對他們說另外一方面我們的社會應該要建構一個被害人的以及他家屬的那個保護以及再過去對他的一些援助幫忙的制度所以我們現在有一些犯罪被害人的保護法那如果我們這個保護的制度然後以及協助制度能夠去加強也就是我們應該是兩個面向"},{"start":369.901,"end":371.802,"text":"你怎麼樣嚴處呢?你被害者家屬的痛苦"},{"start":392.183,"end":417.596,"text":"開行呼籲現階段臺灣請大法官們不要廢死你聽到了沒?你聽到了嗎?所以你一方面說要對這個加害者必須要嚴處那你目前的氛圍是更鬆啊但是對於受害者你說要怎麼保護他他已經是被由這個"},{"start":422.95,"end":441.44,"text":"我都激動的說不出啊我很難過啊因為已經有死刑來改判為無期徒刑被害者的家屬的心聲我希望你可以去回應他們啊你願不願意正面的回應"},{"start":443.139,"end":458.975,"text":"我相信我們的社會都不希望有悲劇的發生那不過跟各位報告就是說現在我們的制度是大法官也認為憲法法庭也認為此行是合憲的只是說他要嚴謹的順限縮範圍以及嚴謹的制度"},{"start":461.437,"end":476.426,"text":"那我們的法律規範其實是特別是殺人罪的話實質判決已經這樣子的判決已經實質的影響到社會的氛圍我也請你去冷靜去思考之因為如果誠如你說的"},{"start":478.361,"end":496.953,"text":"讓被害者能夠得到保護讓加害者要嚴懲但是您剛剛所說的論述剛好是相反這樣子的社會幸福率是絕對不夠的接下來本校請問你曾經說過終身監禁不得假釋的刑罰那不值得考慮"},{"start":498.274,"end":511.833,"text":"不值得考慮你反對死刑你也反對終身監禁不得假釋請問在先判之8號之後的狀況你是否仍舊不支持新增的無期徒刑不得假釋的刑責請問"},{"start":514.447,"end":529,"text":"我如果記憶沒有錯的話我當時發言說那個無期徒刑不得假釋那個刑責是在一個公聽會的討論的過程當時的提案是說要對於如果殺害兒童的話"},{"start":529.941,"end":545.869,"text":"他要把刑罰本來是從比如說10年以上有期徒刑然後無期徒刑跟死刑然後限縮只剩下死刑跟無期徒刑也就減少其他的部分不論你是在工業會或者是怎麼樣都會留下記錄"},{"start":546.909,"end":548.33,"text":"你的模擬回答已經是社會"},{"start":572.581,"end":572.841,"text":"你認同吧?"},{"start":600.645,"end":629.825,"text":"感謝委員的指教那我們想一起來思考這整個他們社會的脈動不要讓受害者惡毒的傷害你都不願意正面回應當然這是我們共同的希望這是我們共同的希望還好你補充所以本期要強調加害人權的時候你在強調加害人權的時候那你更要注意要更要注重我們整個善良者的一個權益善良者的一個權益非常的重要"},{"start":630.645,"end":658.144,"text":"接下來本席要跟你討論NCC這個連連敗訴的問題被提名人你曾經擔任了中天換照審查的鑑定人你當時以中天新聞台被開罰的件數範圍跟罰款很多的這些理由批評中天更說中天是危害的兒童少年身心的健康危害公共秩序善良風俗或者是他自撥新聞違法事實查證的原則後來"},{"start":659.305,"end":680.987,"text":"中天關台了 中天關台了 寫下了我國媒體呢 被關台的案例但是問題來啦 你鑑定完你罵完啦 結果呢 中天對於這個罰則呢他提出了 提起了 這個行政訴訟 已經21連勝 也就是NCC法處"},{"start":682.108,"end":705.36,"text":"但是被法院打臉 被法院打臉 21次的敗訴 終天免罰在這樣情況之下 請問當時你的鑑定的依據是什麼你當時這些財主如果都是免罰 那你還會一樣的做出走向關台的這個鑑定嗎 請做說明"},{"start":708.908,"end":726.366,"text":"我擔任個案的鑑定人只是一個個案的鑑定人後續的所有個案的話我並不了解細節那我當然已經說明過了你要甩鍋嗎?你就是鑑定人啊鑑定人就要提出意見啊提供參考嘛當時你是這麼樣的一個方向嘛"},{"start":730.98,"end":758.546,"text":"是當時我剛才已經說明了就當時的這個個案的話我是他有一個法律推論的脈絡這個法律推論的脈絡的話包括廣播電視法、廣播電視法也就是你當時的鑑定所以本席要請教你當時鑑定的依據是什麼你現在已經NCC21連敗啊當時鑑定的是依據廣播電視法廣播電視法它有基本的換照的要件"},{"start":759.667,"end":760.007,"text":"我不能夠做鑑定那個結果"},{"start":789.279,"end":814.028,"text":"本期告訴你鑒定不是結果你的提供鑒定你提供參考嗎我鑒定的意見還是一樣啊我剛才說了原則是一樣還是一樣依據廣播電視法來本期請教你既然告訴我還是一樣那你認為關台的結果是對還是不對因為你是大法官的提名人請以你現在的身分告訴我告訴本期你認為這個結果關台是對還是錯"},{"start":817.116,"end":831.644,"text":"我沒有辦法判斷是對或錯因為我是鑑定人我只能去看他的這個要件是否符合那不論正面或負面我都要訴說那你的訴說你認為是對還是錯"},{"start":836.067,"end":862.201,"text":"我個人的情況是我依據廣播電視法的要件看到正面跟負面的情況你對於因否裁罰難道沒有判斷嗎你依據廣播電視法的這個方向結果答案是連連被打臉所以你是一味的偏向當時的NCC嗎還是你根本不同意我願意跟你講還是你根本不同意現在法院的判決"},{"start":863.681,"end":882.006,"text":"我個人的了解是其實我的建議意見現在網路上還可以查得到我如果沒有理解錯誤的話那換句話說NCC做出的決定被法院整個打臉的時候那麼本席再一次請教你認為是不是NCC被法院打臉"},{"start":884.288,"end":902.673,"text":"本來本席認為你的學術涵養是非常的高本席希望能夠聽到一些論述但是你還是沒有辦法正面去回應所以我希望以下我們要討論的議題你能夠正面來回應"},{"start":903.573,"end":917.392,"text":"好 我們來看看政治背景跟司法獨立的這個問題因為之所以會提到你的監禁人的過往是因為你的政治背景跟記錄都可能讓人認為你可以必備司法獨立"},{"start":919.658,"end":942.737,"text":"這個特別的獨立性的這個符合大法官那所以呢因為你不只是長期的親綠你根本就是民進黨的高官因為你擔任過民進黨中央黨部仲裁委員你還是民進黨2024年不分區立委提名委員會的名單之一那麼你也擔任過這個賴清德先生就任黨主席的建交人那很多外界的人質疑"},{"start":943.738,"end":972.498,"text":"副院長提名進總主委大法官提名這個這個民進黨的高層那民進黨把憲法法庭當成是自己開的嗎一般民眾看到這樣子的一個背景他都非常質疑他並不符合大法官的獨立超然的要素那你要如何的來說服民眾在你大法官的職務上面你可以保持政治中立並保持大法官在裁決重大案件的時候不受政治影響請做說明"},{"start":974.494,"end":988.247,"text":"我剛才說過就是民進黨仲裁會的話他是一個司法的機制不要解釋因為大家很清楚請問你要如何說服社會大眾你如果成為大法官你要怎麼樣政治中立"},{"start":988.948,"end":1017.486,"text":"你在這個採訪的時候不受政治的影響請說明我擔任仲裁會的委員本來就是政治中立的我們並沒有介入或是涉入任何的黨務好 你好一個政治中立那我就要告訴你我要告訴你也提醒提名人法律不是為政治服務的它更不能成為酬庸或者是有關係就沒關係部分黨派超然中立呢一定要謹記在心"},{"start":1019.195,"end":1035.282,"text":"是當然是好一個是所以我也希望在擔任上大法官的時候你不是只有聽從賴清德先生也不是只有聽從民進黨的賴議大法官黨議大法官可以承諾嗎當然接下來可以承諾我們來討論貪污的問題立場的問題"},{"start":1039.344,"end":1058.9,"text":"民進黨執政的時候多次傳出了這些貪污跟違法的爭議讓社會大眾有很大的一個疑慮但是我們看到目前為止民進黨的內部或高層的貪污我們看到社會大眾對於司法機關的處理不管是它的速度"},{"start":1059.8,"end":1081.593,"text":"或者是結果都表示疑慮在這樣的情況之下就陳儒臺原綠能的前董事長陳啓裕重大的案件臺南地檢申請羈押但是到了法院他說什麼他罪證不足所以就當庭釋放然後呢在看告的時候呢才會這個這個這個因為他不到庭所以呢在11月4號才發布通這個這個這個通緝"},{"start":1084.975,"end":1105.282,"text":"那院檢雙方遭質疑的時候就是說你沒有科技監控你也沒有延遲而且延遲開庭你縱容了這些縱容這些犯罪者可以脫逃在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教社會大眾的這些判決你認為有道理嗎"},{"start":1107.24,"end":1135.849,"text":"我想社會一定會關心各種的可能的貪污你認為有道理嗎當然社會會關心這個貪污的案件社會大眾有道理嗎你認為社會大眾的質疑有道理嗎就是他一定會關心各種的可能的你認為有沒有道理社會大眾關心一定是有道理的一定是有道理好一個有道理所以本期要請教你認為司法院的角色要怎麼樣去改善這些案件的處理呢請做說明"},{"start":1136.626,"end":1143.672,"text":"請針對你現在是被提名者提出你的論述本席願意時間給你說明你要就你自己的一個論述嘛你一直提到所有的相關機關難怪很多人說你是高層啊"},{"start":1164.325,"end":1170.326,"text":"因為他是個案檢察官的偵查還有個案法院的判決這個部分的話應該由獨立的司法機關包括檢察官跟法院去做處理我們應該要尊重司法的獨立"},{"start":1187.91,"end":1190.23,"text":"你通通都不回答你通通都沒答出啊"},{"start":1213.268,"end":1231.213,"text":"所以本席再次請教你會不會繼續的推動終極廢死現在大概以現在狀況我剛才說的我們就處於大概第一個階段是把死刑限縮到那個非提名人請看看社會的氛圍民眾的需求"},{"start":1240.784,"end":1243.375,"text":"謝謝楊委員也謝謝貝廷宇人接下來請張啓楷委員詢問"},{"start":1276.628,"end":1279.852,"text":"德甲出現．貝提名人請調貝提名人答詢早貝提名人"}]}},{"id":"158107","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158107","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2dcdf3b00c116b10d90341d36cd1de3acc1f2ca3bb0cf2646d048316b8811dac4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"14:30:32 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不一定現在將來有可能延伸到立法部門跟司法憲政機構、憲法法庭的爭執如果它是政治部門之間的爭執的話那麼"},{"start":278.712,"end":300.028,"text":"我會比較傾向於政治部門必須要想辦法協商解決如果不行的話那依照我們大法官的解釋意旨基本上呢可能就必須要由司法權去介入去處理呢到底是中間我們的所謂的權力分立制衡的原則有沒有違反"},{"start":301.075,"end":325.501,"text":"各個權力部門的核心領域有沒有被侵犯到這個是我目前的想法其實無論它是什麼字總統是那個字混合字什麼偏向總統偏向那個都不要緊重點是憲政將局要有解決的機制那如果沒有解決的機制可不可以視為說這個憲法制度上面的一個大的漏洞"},{"start":326.77,"end":354.422,"text":"因為無法解決將在那邊其實時間一直在過整個國家一直在空轉如果有憲政僵局的時候那我就再往下問現在也有提出所謂的憲法這個對於憲法法庭的這個訴訟的這個修正的法案那細節就不談"},{"start":355.834,"end":382.811,"text":"如果他堅持一定要怎麼樣多數的人原額才能夠開成這個憲法法庭那要多少比例以上才能夠做成決議假設原額不足的時候就事實上實質的原額不足的時候事實上就是架空了整個憲法法庭那憲法法庭該如何運作呢聽聽看你的講法"},{"start":385.673,"end":401.249,"text":"當然這個是目前大院審議當中的憲法訴訟法修論草案我只能夠基於一個學者的立場針對學理上面可能想像到的問題跟大院做回答"},{"start":403.812,"end":413.691,"text":"從比較法的觀點來看每一個國家到底憲法法庭怎麼樣才可以開會怎麼樣才可以做決議其實規定都不一樣規定都不一樣"},{"start":416.297,"end":443.146,"text":"我們呢大法官是15個人美國的大法官是9個人但是呢我們基本上只有任期8年美國任期是終身制所以比較起來其實美國是比較不容易出現有多位大法官缺額的這樣的一個狀況那像我們目前的體制以及現在運作的現況看起來呢的確是有可能會有多位的這個大法官這個缺額的這樣的狀況出現"},{"start":446.738,"end":460.396,"text":"那這樣子的情況出現的時候呢坦白講當然憲法訴訟法的修法是立法院的職權司法院司法權當然會尊重可是這裡會有一個問題就是說"},{"start":463.4,"end":490.041,"text":"如果修法的結果在實際上導致憲法法庭真的沒有辦法運作的話那其實這裡會有一個很麻煩的問題就是委員所說到的憲政爭議權力分立制衡的這個部分的問題沒有辦法解決那我更關心的是對於人民基本權力的保障的這些案件沒有辦法處理"},{"start":491.237,"end":507.09,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":507.25,"end":528.723,"text":"即使要修法都必須要有清楚的配套措施寫進去OK重點就是不能夠讓司法權這樣子的一個國家的仲裁者處於無法運作的狀態或者是憲法保護者人民基本權利的保護者處於沒有辦法運作的狀態"},{"start":530.184,"end":553.311,"text":"我認為這樣的事情就必須要立法院朝野政黨發揮高度的智慧基本上必須要將你想要立法可能產生的問題基本上做一個通盤的考量必須要做一個立法事實的檢視必須要想想看以後會發生什麼樣的事情"},{"start":554.745,"end":577.919,"text":"在修法的過程當中當然現在也在審查大法官我們的憲法法院也說了基本上對於每一個憲法機關的人事權的審查跟同意其實是有憲法忠誠義務的我會覺得在這種情況底下就是必須要行政權跟立法權都好好的"},{"start":579.52,"end":585.511,"text":"理性的、謹慎的把適當的大法官的審查結果做出來"},{"start":587.663,"end":607.647,"text":"你這是理想狀況我現在講的就是說如果不照你講的這個理想狀況去做事實上就產生了所謂的憲政僵局啊這就是我要跟你請教的這就是我要說的就是說如果因為我們本院就立法院就有人認為我比你大啊立法權比你們所有的權都大啊所以我如果不照你講的這個邏輯來你講這個是一個正常的邏輯嘛"},{"start":611.508,"end":614.81,"text":"報告委員,在我的看法裡面,憲法機關之間沒有誰比誰大的問題,基本上是權力分立制衡的問題。"},{"start":633.36,"end":647.896,"text":"那 again 就是如果呢 任何的憲法機關在行使權力的時候侵害到其他憲法機關的核心領域的時候 這個都必須是由司法權來解決的"},{"start":649.698,"end":650.999,"text":"司法的自主性的這個部分必須要維持"},{"start":676.32,"end":699.552,"text":"那當然就是說藉時如果有這樣的一個釋憲案出來的話基本上我不知道現在既有的大法官會怎麼樣去處理這件事情我不便預測以我現﹖你是被提名人現在假設你是大法官你認為應該如何處理這個僵局這是我今天對你提出的問題你就盡可能的回答我"},{"start":699.932,"end":727.085,"text":"可能必須要基於所謂的司法自主權的基本的原則去盡量想辦法讓憲法法庭可以開庭跟做成決議就是說可以不要遵守立法院立的法你規定我10個人才能開成庭我也可以不要遵守還是我就直接把你修這個法我主動宣告你違憲我想基本上宣告違憲這件事情是必須要有人申請"},{"start":729.37,"end":744.037,"text":"那假設沒有人要申請那是不是就僵在那邊阿?我想應該不至於沒有人會申請因為呢在我們的市縣的程序裡面基本上可以申請的人非常多那所以我的回答大概就是這個樣子"},{"start":745.267,"end":771.879,"text":"那我就繼續往下問其實這是對整個國家來講是不幸的事情如果發生這樣的僵局因為現在立法院有一些人的心態他很可怕就是因為我立了法律你要給我解釋違憲或是有被解釋違憲的嫌疑所以我就根本就不讓你解釋了讓你連開庭審理的機會都沒有你就沒有資格來判我違憲不過這是立法院的角度但是司法院"},{"start":773.297,"end":794.234,"text":"其實是整個憲法的守護者整個制度的守護者立法委員、立法院有可能做出違憲的審議的法律這是立法院其他院也有可能會違憲行政院也有可能會違憲考試院也有可能會違憲監察院也有可能會違憲其實當這個違憲的時候"},{"start":799.278,"end":820.658,"text":"本來決定是不是違憲決定的機關就是在憲法法庭嘛好我問你啊我就問你一個問題啊假設真的被架空了立法委員很高興以後我們如何審法案我高興怎麼定就怎麼定反正已經沒有到憲法法庭了也沒有辦法宣告我違憲跟你講這時候高興的行政機關可能也很高興"},{"start":822.342,"end":848.713,"text":"沒關係啊你都搞啊反正我都沒有人可以解釋我違憲啊我行政機關要怎麼解讀法律我就怎麼解讀法律啊我要高興要怎麼做就怎麼做啊於是中華民國的憲政秩序就崩潰了所以現在搞的人都以為自己很高明啊我站在我自己的立場反正我立法機關你怎麼樣你不能夠搞我不能夠宣告我違憲就夠了他都忘了別的機關別的憲政機關也有可能違憲欸他當別的憲政機關違憲的時候他要怎麼辦"},{"start":851.678,"end":878.064,"text":"這個我想就是我剛剛說的大家在想要修憲法訴訟法的時候其實要有更加周延的考慮就是說的確會違憲的機關非常的多尤其主導行政權的行政院他其實所行使的權利其實有很多很多的狀況底下是會侵害到人民的權利的"},{"start":878.504,"end":906.561,"text":"本來憲法裡面人民基本權利的保護他最主要要保護的對象就是要對抗行政權是沒有錯本來在原來的憲法的結構上就是這樣但是現在有人想要把這些大怪物放出來喔放出來因為要把憲法法庭廢掉喔憲法法庭如果實質真的被架空之後那當發生這些事情的時候我找不到一個機關在目前中華民國憲法找不到一個機關可以去宣告說你這個行為違憲喔"},{"start":907.97,"end":927.59,"text":"是,所以我想就是說這個在立法的時候是要非常非常的謹慎的事實上是不應該這樣子處理的那這個司法權如果遇到這麼極端的情況的話我想司法權必須要呢基於他的這個自主權的這個部分"},{"start":928.826,"end":956.812,"text":"想辦法來解決這樣的問題不應該放任人民的基本權利跟國家的自由民主的憲政秩序變成這樣的結果當然我們還是希望我還是希望就是說在修法的時候能夠更加的謹慎如果真的有憲政爭議的時候就想辦法用釋憲的方式來解決我覺得這個對整個國家的長治久安"},{"start":957.512,"end":980.666,"text":"以及人民的權利的保障來講才是真正正確的選擇以我們學法律的人當然可以接受你這樣講法的機會比較大但是你想想看有的人不相信的原因在哪裡呢無論行政權或是立法權就台灣他都是人民賦予選舉產生今年1月13號其實有兩個選舉加在一起一個是總統行政權的選舉"},{"start":985.302,"end":1010.648,"text":"一個是立法院立法委員的選舉他把兩個選舉放在同一天所以他其實同時選舉了行政權跟國會立法院的權利但是現在選完的時候兩邊當選的黨不一樣利用自己的職權拼命擴張想要去變更這個選舉的結果人事選其實核心的議題就是兩個"},{"start":1012.386,"end":1039.199,"text":"行政局的核心議題就是兩個一個就是人事一個就是預算就是人跟錢他利用法律修訂一直擴張然後你的人事要經過他的干涉你才能夠用甚至什麼樣的人不能用他都有意見第二個經費現在雖然憲法明明規定不得為增加預算是提案他利用法律的法律案來給你規定他的錢要怎麼用"},{"start":1041.213,"end":1054.182,"text":"這個角度上面都是在對行政權的侵犯你覺得如果從概略總體上面來講這樣的講法你同不同意我想人事權跟預算權基本上都是"},{"start":1055.492,"end":1058.393,"text":"可以審議但是他審議如果是不合常理的你的人我不中意我就都不給你用"},{"start":1083.479,"end":1098.071,"text":"所以我覺得基本上國會政治部門行政跟立法之間基本上必須要想清楚就是說基本上我們應該都是用善意的方式來審查人事權為國家舉裁"},{"start":1100.954,"end":1120.175,"text":"有好的行政官員其實才能盡責的把國家該做的事情做好那同樣的道理立法權當然是有立法的權利那他在做一些立法的時候自然會需要有一些相應的資源的分配"},{"start":1120.896,"end":1121.776,"text":"我講的預算的那個"},{"start":1142.199,"end":1154.561,"text":"的那個侵犯不是這樣啦我舉個例子我多數黨嘛你執政的是少數黨嘛你的國家的總體預算我就全部幫你拿來我分配給地方分配給我比較多的地方啊那你中央政府就沒有錢啊"},{"start":1156.038,"end":1181.591,"text":"那你總統如果沒有錢你就做不出成績啊用政治的角度去做這樣子的政治的攻防沒有考慮到憲法的分際對這樣的問題要如何解決我想這個部分的問題呢基本上從憲法的憲政的角度來看呢基本上就是必須要看中央與地方分權的這個市權跟經費的資源的分配的問題他不跟你討論市權啊他現在就是光討論經費啊"},{"start":1183.131,"end":1209.178,"text":"所以我想這樣子的討論就是有失偏頗應該相應的這是因為有人認為他比你大所以他不在乎他的偏頗你們這些我們學者論道尊尊教誨侃侃而談沒有放在眼裡就是我只比你大我這個叫做流氓邏輯當我人少的時候我跟你講道理當我人多的時候我就跟你表決你在講什麼我們沒有需要跟你討論"},{"start":1210.947,"end":1222.227,"text":"吳秉叡"}]}},{"id":"158108","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d2e32f6bb4ddc22c90341d36cd1de3accdb9bda307ae229b3cd6849d3fc6a78aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"14:51:12 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呢在比較法上面有非常多的例子您只要說您是認為說有權利還是沒有權限我們大法官在這一次的釋憲裡面呢憲判9裡面呢針對這個部分其實可以講得更清楚相當程度來說我認為在國會調查權的這個部分聽證的這個部分都可以再加強"},{"start":367.612,"end":388.029,"text":"所以你基本上不同意有處罰嗎?我同意在某一些條件底下在合乎法律保留原則、比例原則的這些情況底下可以有一定的懲處我們這次是透過立法院職權行使法去訂定的大法官竟然都還可以,包含您還認為說我們是不符合法律保留原則嗎?"},{"start":389.19,"end":391.813,"text":"蔡霞貞大法官、袁章琼文大法官都可以看他的想法"},{"start":409.972,"end":412.773,"text":"大法官的多元化包括審議人數嗎?"},{"start":425.333,"end":427.353,"text":"報告委員我想委員所舉的這個例子是一個非常極端的例子"},{"start":454.1,"end":480.186,"text":"法律就在防弊我現在講就是說有沒有這種可能性當然在理論上極端的狀況所以你認為說這樣適合嗎極端的狀況的確有可能出現這樣的狀況我個人認為呢這樣子的方式這樣的情況底下做成決議的確有可能有欠缺民主正當性好的OK那我們剛剛講的是當然非常極端我們講一個正常的狀況現在有8位大法官"},{"start":480.646,"end":498.843,"text":"假設有兩個人今天請假可能身體不舒服生病請假那只剩下6位大法官那做成一個判決5個人這應該是很可能會發生而且事實上就是符合現在的這個狀況你認為5個人大法官就做成評議你可以接受嗎"},{"start":500.605,"end":510.238,"text":"我想在這種情況底下也許還是有民主正當性的問題但是實際上我覺得以現在大法官組成的狀況來講"},{"start":514.147,"end":538.783,"text":"大概不太有人會在這種狀況底下還請假您都在說假設但是呢這個生病難免出國請假也難免不是不可能發生因為我想因為您也是研究公法憲法應該很重視正當法律程序所以呢開會開庭的人數是不是也是屬於正當法律程序的一環"},{"start":540.834,"end":565.365,"text":"基本上我覺得這個比較像是民主正當性的一環是不是符合民主正當性是符合民主正當性所以少數大法官的確他不適合做成這麼重要的憲法判決如果這麼少的大法官做了這樣的憲法判決的確就有可能違反民主正當性然後違反我們的相關的這個正當法律程序"},{"start":565.905,"end":589.239,"text":"那接下來我還想請教就是．順著剛剛吳秉瑞委員所講的他說呢憲政機關有可能違憲請問憲法法庭有可能違憲嗎那要看個案的情況到底是怎麼樣所以也是有可能嘛如果說所有的憲政機關都可能違憲當然不排除司法機關也有可能做成違憲的憲法判決是吧"},{"start":592.766,"end":608.169,"text":"我比較難以想像委員在講的是什麼樣的狀況在納粹時代的聯邦憲法德國聯邦憲法法院做了很多的判決後來都被認為它就是個違憲的憲法判決所以呢不代表說憲法法庭做出來的判決"},{"start":609.704,"end":609.904,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":624.244,"end":648.896,"text":"所以我要講就是說是吳秉瑞委員剛剛說的憲法法庭他處理的問題可能是在去解決有可能憲政境外有違憲但是也不要忘記憲法法院憲法法庭本身可能也可能會做成一個違憲的這個憲法判決那麼接下來我很想請教您的就是因為我們知道其實大法官的獨立性很重要"},{"start":649.816,"end":666.873,"text":"除了多元性我覺得大法官的獨立性更是重要要如何檢視判斷大法官有超越黨派能夠做到制衡執政者制衡行政權我覺得這個是一個很重要的一個檢驗標準不知道您是不是同意我"},{"start":669.091,"end":692.847,"text":"我是同意這個標準依照我們憲法的規定大法官基本上是依據法律獨立審判的法官的一種這個大法官也解釋過那當然他必須要用中立獨立超然的立場來進行審判那大法官他是不是超然獨立中立基本上當然就表現在他的憲法判決裡面"},{"start":693.527,"end":693.547,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":719.611,"end":747.421,"text":"還有萊豬標示的釋憲案．農田水利會的釋憲案．不當黨產釋憲案．還有死刑有條件的核限案．國會改革法案的釋憲案等等．諸如此類的憲法判決．幾乎都是在護航民進黨的政策．所以也難怪為什麼．這屆的大法官備受批評．認為說他們就是一群綠油油的大法官．"},{"start":748.8,"end":776.059,"text":"我認為說要檢視一個大法官的獨立性就要聽其言、觀其行、讀其憲法判決從這些事實基本上就證明確實大法官如果說具有高度的政治性很難讓大家不質疑就是說是他是不是真的能夠在釋憲的時候做出一個中立、客觀、專業的憲法判決那麼因為大法官獨立性很重要所以接下來我也想就一些問題來請教您的意見"},{"start":779.349,"end":796.14,"text":"因為您過去其實也擔任過很多這個釋憲案的專家鑑定人那在這些議題上面我想有幾個部分大概我也不用再請教您譬如說當時在釋字689號解釋裡面您是支持狗仔記者有跟追的權利"},{"start":797.2,"end":820.797,"text":"對不起我想這個部分我想跟委員說明一下在這個案子裡面我是當時申請釋憲人的訴訟代理人基本上這個案子是在處理跟追跟隱私權之間的關係也就是新聞自由跟隱私權之間的關係並不是說我支持狗仔跟追在這個解釋裡面其實大法官也說了"},{"start":825.478,"end":853.646,"text":"即使你叫他狗仔他還是有新聞自由否則沒有辦法產製新聞所以我基本上知道你的立場即便是狗仔製製也是有新聞自由所以這個是您的立場當然您還有參加軍公教年改的釋憲案擔任專家經紀人或訴訟代理人然後您也支持通姦除罪化在酒駕強制抽血的部分您基本上是反對的對不對"},{"start":855.046,"end":856.187,"text":"您是不是支持在國中小的階段就要接受同性教育?"},{"start":873.215,"end":890.731,"text":"我其實不清楚委員所說的同性教育是什麼我沒有在我的公開的言論裡面說過在您這次的報告裡面我有看到我基本上是認為每一個人都應該盡量接受性別平等的教育"},{"start":891.471,"end":896.233,"text":"請問您會支持NCC有權關掉新聞台嗎?主要是研究言論自由、新聞自由的我覺得這個要看是什麼樣的狀況要看是什麼樣的新聞台"},{"start":920.703,"end":943.36,"text":"中間新聞台你認為他應該關掉嗎我覺得中間新聞台的這個案子呢基本上呢可能在理由構成上面必須要更加的謹慎什麼的理由你是說關台的理由關台的理由對所以你還是認為說政府是有權關掉新聞台的基本上這不是關新聞台的問題這是一個衛星廣播電視執照新聞類的這個電視台換照的問題"},{"start":946.522,"end":948.804,"text":"這基本上我想委員也清楚這裏有嚴重的內容管制新聞自由的管制的問題"},{"start":976.166,"end":997.852,"text":"您是支持NCC有這個內容管制?我不支持。我非常清楚不支持。接下來我想請教您在這一次我們訪台的陸生他不經意的就是前一陣子馬英九總統他不是邀請了一群陸生團然後其中有一位漂亮的女同學她在受訪的時候不經意的把Chinese Taipei講成中國台北然後被"},{"start":998.952,"end":1003.138,"text":"請問一下您認為陸生這位大陸的女同學﹖她有沒有言論自由﹖她可以說中國台北﹖"},{"start":1017.01,"end":1044.405,"text":"我想這個是陸生的言論自由那你認為應該要處罰馬英九辦公室嗎因為這是馬英九辦公室他們主動我覺得應該主體不同吧這主體不同嘛可是陸委會說要處罰啊說要處罰馬辦啊我想陸委會如果要處罰馬辦的話基本上就必須要看看那個個案裡面法律構成因為他的構成要件他就認為說是因為陸生今天講這句話有妨礙國家安全"},{"start":1045.925,"end":1071.495,"text":"防害國家安全之餘?你認為講這句中國台北的話有防害國家安全之餘嗎?我想這個還需要更審慎的考量就直接這樣子講的話可能呢兩邊都沒有辦法...那由此可見你沒有看清楚那個新聞嗎?我這次也發現我們很多的大法官基本上是不關心時事的不關心社會新聞所以難怪為什麼大家會批評我們大法官不接地氣"},{"start":1073.171,"end":1100.776,"text":"然後這次的很多大法官提名人還說我們要跟這個進行民主思辨跟社會對話但是都不看新聞不了解時事的大法官我都不知道要如何跟這個民意來對話好那接下來請問一下就是好我們接下來再來進行下一個題目這個在2018年臺大校長領選風波案裡面讓臺大有將近一年半的時間是沒有正式的校長"},{"start":1102.223,"end":1122.912,"text":"請問您作為臺大的教授．這一年半沒有校長．對臺大的效果有沒有影響?我想你要看是從哪一個方面來看．臺大當時一直有代理校長．代理校長也很努力的在維持臺大的運作．代理校長可以去做一些重要的決策嗎?其實都有在做．那臺大的師生的生活一切如常．"},{"start":1123.832,"end":1148.497,"text":"以我自己來講我自己就一切如常了解所以照您的這個邏輯其實大學可以不用正式校長我並沒有說我並沒有說大學我並沒有說大學不需要校長但是呢一個大學的校長基本上呢必須要透過真正的大學自治的方式選出來所以您認為說這個教育部不應該核定"},{"start":1154.675,"end":1158.778,"text":"我相信那個時候的合定是過於倉促因為呢我所謂的倉促是沒有考慮到很多事情比如說當時"},{"start":1172.146,"end":1178.61,"text":"檢察院已經在調查管先生的違法兼職案但是呢他並沒有並沒有把這個東西我認為有權利依照我們現在的大學法底下我認為我認為是"},{"start":1201.663,"end":1202.704,"text":"我支持大學自治但是教育部必須要有司法性監督"}]}},{"id":"158106","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158106","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d932b42ebf8c01e060341d36cd1de3acc905041b311685818d25b08c110ea79ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:31:58 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孰人無過知錯人改善莫大焉注意到媒體我今天特別給您一個說明的空間我注意到您曾經在臉書上說我們廣東名校長就是負下大勢違法兼職又稱他兼職台灣大讀懂"},{"start":215.416,"end":231.284,"text":"那這個臺大有一個認定喔這個管中銘未附陸兼職符合教育部規定這個臺大認定你覺得是臺大是你認知的學校嘛臺大認知認定說管中銘沒有附大陸兼職您說他違法兼職那你覺得臺大這個認定是正確的嗎"},{"start":232.206,"end":248.113,"text":"台大當時的認定基本上是用廈門大學的回函來做認定這是一個行政上的認定所以你認為台大的因為台大有這個新聞這個台大這個認定是正確還是不正確或者是一個偏頗的認定我認為是一個不盡正確的偏頗認定所以你認為台大的認定是一個"},{"start":259.798,"end":264.801,"text":"因為我自己本身不是當事人所以我不可能有陳述的機會那又說到管中銘違規兼職列教育部的這個名單就台大說當時已經卸任讀董那這個東西比較明確了吧"},{"start":288.092,"end":288.232,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":306.115,"end":319.991,"text":"在沒有獲得臺大校方的同意之前就去擔任臺歌大的讀董、新資委員會等等的這個事情呢其實事後在"},{"start":321.532,"end":341.077,"text":"檢察院的彈劾案裡面講得非常清楚所以這個部分我並沒有講錯台大說他當時已經卸任讀董了已經辭卸任所以你說辭卸任沒有問題你說他去擔任以前沒有去那個嘛他擔任之前沒有經過台大就已經有違法事實了"},{"start":345.358,"end":367.849,"text":"所以您到今天還是認為說臺大的這些認定或是偏頗或是不正確的您還是覺得您的指控是正確的接著您說對於我們管校長他說您的國發所的論文抄襲這個部分你說不回應是因為這個不確實還是怎樣"},{"start":370.784,"end":390.634,"text":"我不知道委員是在講哪一件事情那個管宗敏校長說自己指您說國發所論文抄襲對你自己論文抄襲視而不見這件事情國發所論文抄襲並不是我抄襲不是你抄襲不是我抄襲所以我不知道我要回應什麼"},{"start":391.374,"end":391.854,"text":"對於臨近改革的視線裡頭你有做鑑定的意見嗎?"},{"start":418.015,"end":441.652,"text":"就是說這個年金改革的改變無涉於是否違反法律不溯及既往的原則也沒有侵害到受規範對象之財產權這些意見您看您有講過這些嗎還有未違反法律不溯及既往原則難認定違反憲法第15條的生存權的保障沒有違反沒有侵害受規範者的財產權也沒有這個都是您說過的話這個應該是"},{"start":446.367,"end":474.343,"text":"您確定嗎?我沒有說錯,您說過這話您的第三頁,意見書第三頁有提到公共年金制度本質上必須含納動態調整的可能性對退伏基金、財務收支平衡的基本目標要怎麼達成?您說的是本應容許政府與立法者定期共同檢討的空間以便能夠是實際需要進行調整的以確保公共年金制度的"},{"start":475.268,"end":475.628,"text":"我曾經研究過的事情"},{"start":492.816,"end":496.197,"text":"民進黨有可能還會提出釋憲,您是不是還會認為這是政府與立法者定期共同檢討的空間?"},{"start":513.163,"end":533.986,"text":"我認為這個事情當然如果有具體個案進來的話我就不便表示意見那如果這個是一個潛在的釋憲案的話我在這裡也不方便講太多不一定是一個釋憲啦民進黨不一定會提出釋憲啦如果就您以前因為您現在不是大法官的人選只是被提名有沒有根據您的這個"},{"start":535.247,"end":558.519,"text":"過往的這個信念價值我看您也一向信念價值是怎樣就怎樣也不會說是自無為聞或會迴避問題不像前面那兩位會迴避問題但是您本來做的就是本應容許政府與立法者共同定期檢討空間那過了好幾年我們現在又打算定期檢討了我還是抱持同樣的態度所以也是認為這應該是政府與立法者應該可以有"},{"start":563.563,"end":582.538,"text":"政府立法部門跟行政部門必須要共同來維護大家的最低的生存權反正您肯定說還有檢討空間那這一點就可以至少你的心內沒有改變有關國家認同的部分你認為說國家定位是政治問題不應該率有回答我也尊重但是"},{"start":583.599,"end":590.524,"text":"有時候因為這個憲法的這個規定那影響到人民實際的權利的時候這時候這個當然你就要有您的這個看法了我舉一個金門的例子來給你聽您知道我是來自金門縣嘛福建省金門 中華民國福建省金門知道吧我們這個因為這個國家的一些定位問題造成人民權益受損工作財產都受到損害你應該不能保持緘默啦然後給人家看一下這個圖齁您看一下這個"},{"start":609.959,"end":630.734,"text":"現實案例齁這個你知道中華民國憲法有規定中華民國的這個固有疆域這個沒問題嘛齁這個憲法裡頭有明文規定嘛齁您看看這個圖上面有藍色的跟紅色的齁這個就是禁憲制水域這個是我們這個之前這個國防部畫出的金門的這個禁憲制水域齁那金門民眾因為齁"},{"start":634.127,"end":653.696,"text":"你船開出了這個所謂的禁限制水域所以被處罰這個案子在金門發生了數百個案例你怎麼而且被地檢署起訴那根據這個中華民國憲法這個有超出故有疆域嗎在金門的四周圍內幾海里內啊"},{"start":655.757,"end":675.092,"text":"為如果大陸的說大陸的船要進來對我們做什麼事情我們還可以說基於這個安全保障我們對大陸的進行這個我這個是可以接受的但是對金門我們中華民國的國民因為船開出我們自己劃的進限制水域而因此被地檢署起訴在金門數百案件你怎麼看"},{"start":677.152,"end":685.581,"text":"好那個謝謝委員告訴我這個案例因為我對於離島的相關的事務我現在要回答委員就是說"},{"start":692.788,"end":711.363,"text":"我們 我想委員也知道我們的憲法 憲法增修條文跟兩岸條例基本上是一個非常特殊的一個架構它事實上就是以這個所謂的主權跟治權這樣子的一個合一還是分立的一個狀況弄起來"},{"start":714.225,"end":735.458,"text":"所以我們限制不讓大陸的漁船進來這個是合理的,我也接受啊在你那個前提下中華民國自己的國民不能行駛在中華民國自己這些還是我們認知的隨意喔我想在這個部分基本上就是必須要去考量說在這樣子的一個架構底下對於本國人民"},{"start":736.198,"end":736.538,"text":"下一題喔"},{"start":757.253,"end":759.435,"text":"《中華民國憲法》第148條《中華民國領域內一切互應許自由流通》"},{"start":775.643,"end":796.898,"text":"您是哪裡人?宜蘭人嗎?我是宜蘭人。我們也有很多走私的問題。我現在不是要問走私,我問中華民國境內,台澎金馬,我就問台澎金馬境內,兩岸人民關係的自由地區裡頭。你如果從高雄帶宜蘭雞蛋上來,請問你是不是應該要經過檢查?從宜蘭就好了,從宜蘭帶到台北,是不是應該要經過檢查?"},{"start":798.855,"end":814.722,"text":"經過什麼檢查?檢查看你這個雞蛋安不安全?檢查這個雞蛋有沒有病啊?檢查這個雞蛋帶了幾顆啊?食物上應該是沒有沒有嘛 對不對?你知道嗎?我給你看一下金門人的金門如果帶雞蛋到台灣島來要坐飛機嘛我們是要經過檢查的這個符合中華民國憲法嗎?那來我跟你說齁"},{"start":821.653,"end":846.967,"text":"不只一樣 帶牛肉 帶豬肉 帶雞蛋好 我跟您說 如果牛肉你說 可能有一些什麼病菌啊 什麼 或什麼或豬的什麼口蹄啊 什麼豬瘟啊 這一點我說為了必要的這個一些防止其他的法醫的被侵害喔 這個我倒是還說 這個勉強我們來配合政府說怎麼來做 對不對 這樣子算才是可以接受啦但是 您知道嗎 在我質詢的那個時候 在兩年前"},{"start":851.328,"end":859.005,"text":"屏東地區有禽流感金門地區沒有禽流感金門沒有禽流感沒有任何的"},{"start":865.871,"end":881.339,"text":"請問在這個情況下從屏東到台北帶雞蛋來是不用檢查是沒有限制從金門到台灣來是被限制的是要被檢查的當然在有爭取後現在說放寬一點可以帶20顆啦但是我想請教這個沒有違反憲法嗎"},{"start":884.3,"end":884.641,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":898.831,"end":900.732,"text":"如果是這樣的話我修正我的講法如果事實是這樣的話如果是這個樣子那麼主管機關要做這樣的規範的時候就必須要負責舉證"},{"start":927.322,"end":950.394,"text":"為什麼金門必須要受到不一樣的限制?這樣算不算一個國家內實行兩種制度?請問你這樣算不算一個國家內實行兩種制度?我不同意你不同意他實施這個制度還是你不同意這是一國兩制?我不同意在同一個國家裡面沒有特殊的公共利益的要求的時候去做這樣子的區分的限制"},{"start":951.374,"end":973.587,"text":"所以現在的制度我跟妳講這都是事實現在的制度就是在一個國家內實施兩種制度你從宜蘭帶過來台北不用檢查我從金門帶過來就是要檢查就是要檢查而且金門沒有禽流感屏東那時候那時候還有禽流感他們還不用檢查你覺得如果你是身為離島的居民因為身為金門居民你不會覺得備受歧視嗎"},{"start":974.868,"end":975.549,"text":"中華民國憲法增修條文第10條第12項"},{"start":996.881,"end":1022.851,"text":"國家應依民族意願保障原住民族之地位及政治參與．並對其教育文化、交通、水利、衛生、醫療．經濟、土地及社會福利事項予以保障．並輔助並促其發展其辦法令與法律定制．對澎湖、金門、馬祖地區民眾一同．這個是在憲法裡頭明文規定的．所以我們知道現在對原住民有什麼．原住民有原住民基本法．您知道嗎我知道"},{"start":1023.817,"end":1034.006,"text":"那請問呢：在這個情況下：憲法竟然有這樣明文規定：如果金馬鵬民眾要訂一個金馬鵬人民基本法：您是否也覺得是可行的呢："},{"start":1035.693,"end":1060.871,"text":"就是離島基本法或是金馬鵬人民基本法都可以如果要對離島的人民做特殊的保障我想我們憲法裡面其實並不是沒有依據的就是剛剛委員所提到的那些那我覺得不管是過去我想委員也知道過去曾經有離島條例的這些倡議的立法朝野都有很大的爭執"},{"start":1062.793,"end":1084.753,"text":"然後呢這裡其實會涉及到的問題其實是一個所謂的資源分配的問題那我個人向來認為我是宜蘭人宜蘭有很多偏鄉我認為我們在偏鄉的保護上面或者是離島的保護上面呢的確呢是有在討論的空間所以我坦白講"},{"start":1085.974,"end":1113.087,"text":"我不反對呢在金馬鵬人民的這個部分呢做一些呢比較架構性的基本權益的保障就像設立一個基本法嘛就是比如說原住民原住民有的這個原住民基本法客家居民有的什麼客家基本法那這個金馬鵬人民就是離島也設一個理論上這也應該我要問的是因為你是大法官的提名這樣有違反憲法嗎"},{"start":1114.166,"end":1118.362,"text":"我其實不認為定基本法會有違反憲法的問題那這樣會有什麼問題嗎?"},{"start":1122.17,"end":1145.905,"text":"你支持這樣嗎?如果說有這樣的立法,你覺得是...如果我當立法委員的話,我大致上是可以支持的也是支持這樣的立法嗎?那這裡會有的問題是說基本法只是一個架構性的立法它必須要有其他的作用法,我想委員員是學法律的,應該知道必須要有其他的作用法來分配資源那作用法是不是合憲,就必須要用個案來檢驗"},{"start":1147.547,"end":1169.904,"text":"後續當然我們這個相關法律我們在立法院裡頭會做充分的這個討論不過我是對今天一些部分的答案還算是滿意的第一個就是對於年金的這個部分這個當然可以定期的來做檢討就是政府跟立法之間可以定一下看是不是對人民的一些基本生存權有受到侵犯那第二點對於這個金門這個農業尤其是農業部違反了中華民國憲法148條中華民國境內會不會應該獲唱其流"},{"start":1175.928,"end":1176.749,"text":"謝謝陳委員的詢問,也謝謝被提名的"},{"start":1204.74,"end":1206.366,"text":"報告全院委員會上午會議進行"}]}},{"id":"158105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158105","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d8f03f3687cdd510f0341d36cd1de3acc905041b311685818ebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:11:16 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5年來高達有134人他們的組織的成員也涉入了多起的刑案危及國家的一些安全那麼包含不管是這個違反國安法、反滲透法、總統罷免法其中有8案有牽扯11人從民國99年一直到113年之間他們也涉及了很多的刑案包含殺人"},{"start":102.677,"end":109.242,"text":"包含強盜、包含跨國人口販運等等所以依照這樣子的一個政黨法的一個查處"},{"start":110.12,"end":132.511,"text":"所以申請憲法法庭將其做解散我為什麼特別舉這個例子因為其實就是想要來凸顯也請我們的劉大法官也來說明一下關於所謂的憲法法庭的角色是不是能夠充分擔起保障憲法權威以及維護人民權利的一個職責"},{"start":133.912,"end":153.462,"text":"那我們的核心價值還有我們在憲政體制當中的獨特的一個功能應該要如何體現那作為所謂的憲法法庭的成員那大法官在審理上述我剛剛所說的這些案件當中又要怎麼樣來體現所謂的憲法守護者的一個角色發揮應有的影響力"},{"start":155.631,"end":163.78,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想委員剛剛提到的政黨解散的個案因為"},{"start":165.339,"end":190.319,"text":"未來有可能進入憲法法庭那基於司法倫理的要求以及大法官不能夠提早過度揭露心證的這些基本的原則我想我就不針對個案來做回答但是它事實上就是我們憲法裡面以及憲法訴訟法裡面還有政黨法裡面所說的政黨解散案件"},{"start":191.16,"end":199.059,"text":"政黨違憲解散案件那政黨違憲解散案件基本上就是必須要符合政黨的目的或行為基本上危害"},{"start":199.864,"end":200.324,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":229.549,"end":255.371,"text":"在任何情況底下都會被受理大家可以看得到我們每年大法官做成的案件其實判決是有限的那就表示說人民申請案件必須要有憲法重要性必須要是貫徹基本權利所必要而且經過審查庭跟憲法法院的裁定受理之後才會進入程序所以換句話說憲法法院是一個非常特殊的一個救濟程序"},{"start":257.133,"end":267.639,"text":"這也是憲法法院對一個國家的維護民主制度、民主憲政制度跟維護人權保障最重要、最特殊的地方"},{"start":269.025,"end":289.864,"text":"那我想接下來其實因為今天時間的關係我想憲法法庭跟大法官最終的目的其實是服務人民我想這是絕對沒有任何疑義的那為了要確保這個不受到人民的應該是說不受到違憲行為的一些侵害我們才會訴諸所謂的這個憲法法庭"},{"start":290.615,"end":314.931,"text":"那才能夠得到就是人民他所謂的這個正義的最後的一道防線其實就是憲法法庭很多人可能不知道說原來我們的憲法法庭申請的案件其實96.69%都是跟人民請願案有非常大的一個關係但是就剛剛其實大法官您特別提到其實整個所有最後成案能夠判決下來其實"},{"start":316.112,"end":336.112,"text":"那個機率其實承案率或者是說到最後其實那個機率其實是有一定的程序其實也不是很高但是我們就用113年的憲判字號的類型我們來做一下例子從第1號到第11號其中在今年的5月就是第6號"},{"start":337.173,"end":364.419,"text":"就是消防警察人員他們的考試升高的限制案當然憲法法庭認為這個現行對於所謂的這個警校人員他們升高在規定的部分排除了男性的部分是10%但是卻排除了55%的這個55%的一個女性這個對於女性的這個應考人員其實是不公平的那這個部分其實也是宣判是違憲的"},{"start":365.419,"end":366.14,"text":"中華民國憲法規定．提名張文貞．提名張文貞．提名張文貞"},{"start":378.922,"end":403.403,"text":"以目前這個教育部由各個縣市政府﹐他們自行制定這個補充的一些相關法令﹐這一年內當中的教育部應該要重新的來做修正﹐也就是說這個將來只要有合格的教師證的這個代理老師﹐他其實都有機會在他的之前的那個年資要提續﹐不會因為他轉換到其他的學校﹐他前面的所有的年資要重新來做計算"},{"start":404.304,"end":426.224,"text":"這樣是不公平的那這個部分其實我們的憲法法庭也做出了一些判決所以其實96.69%都是跟人民的請願有關也就是說最後都會是人民他在自立救濟當中的最後一道防線我們要成為人民的一個後盾那面對這個人民申請案的比例這麼高的一個狀況之下"},{"start":427.345,"end":454.953,"text":"就剛剛您所說的我們怎麼樣在有限的資源有限的時間當中能夠平衡來做一個運用強化對人民的一個保障的一個改革的空間呢謝謝委員提問如果從我們的憲法法庭的發展史來看其實在憲法訴訟法修正之後其實人民的這個權力救濟的案子的確增加很多"},{"start":456.053,"end":457.514,"text":"那當然選案的時候就必須要看呢"},{"start":485.094,"end":485.574,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":508.171,"end":531.674,"text":"大法官有助理．或者是大法官．現在不是叫書記處．的一些資源配置．我覺得都還有相當大的一個強化的空間．當然這個部分就必須要有賴未來司法院．跟立法院一起在預算上面能夠合作跟努力．"},{"start":534.416,"end":558.205,"text":"我會認為說一個國家如果真正要變成現代的民主憲政國家他的憲法法院的現代化是非常重要的他的憲法法院能夠真的受到人民的尊重這是非常重要的事情那更重要的是一個憲法法院的效率"},{"start":559.665,"end":586.332,"text":"也是非常重要的事情我們過去曾經有很長的一段時間是處在三分之二、三分之二的那個情況底下所以有非常多的我套據前任司法院副院長蘇永青先生蘇永青老師的講法就是所以製造了非常多的死案那這些死案長期放在那個地方其實會導致人民"},{"start":587.532,"end":588.894,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":603.45,"end":622.752,"text":"因為在112年憲法法庭總共受理了2876件的一個申請案件那當然我剛剛講96.69%其實都是跟人民的這個申請訴願案是有關的那接下來其實比較嚴重的問題這個就是在野黨的他們提出了憲法訴訟法當中的這個修正草案"},{"start":623.476,"end":647.09,"text":"那要把所謂的大法官的人數的規定從現有的總額修正成所謂的法定的總額那剛剛有特別提到這個三分之二如果將這個裁判作為門檻提高至法定總額的三分之二會不會直接影響到人民基本權的一個保障我們舉例來講在現有總額都有可能成為比方說像是9票對6票"},{"start":648.491,"end":670.102,"text":"8票對7票就是大概有這樣子就是這樣案件無法通過的一個狀況之下如果再把門檻提高到所謂的法定總額那其實是不是也就徒增了人民他們在自立救濟當中他們的權益的受損甚至於是導致變成他們想要溯源的一種障礙呢"},{"start":670.811,"end":695.944,"text":"好,我想我跟委員報告一下就是有關於貴院在憲法訴訟法的修正上面我想呢,基於權力分立跟制衡的原則作為司法者,未來的司法者基本上呢,我基本上就是先尊重貴院的政治部門之間的協調看看你們能夠修出什麼樣的法律來這個部分呢,我不辯智慧"},{"start":696.644,"end":718.261,"text":"不過我們現在的憲法訴訟的制度改成憲有總額的這個部分其實跟我剛剛說的過去很難做成違憲判決甚至也很難做成合憲判決以至於沒有辦法保護人民的權益的這個歷史發展其實是有關係的"},{"start":719.702,"end":737.716,"text":"所以如果要把法律修正成這樣子的狀況的話那我認為應該要有好的配套的制度或措施來確保憲法法庭的實質運作可能性不要損及憲法賦予司法權的司法自主性"},{"start":738.436,"end":764.444,"text":"或者去防害到大法官職權的行使因為大法官職權的行使是我們司法權相當核心的領域這個是不應該被限制的因為這個在實務的一個運作上面其實等於也增加了一般人民他們的基本權的一個侵害我認為如果這樣子做的話會導致憲法法庭的效率大幅的降低"},{"start":766.485,"end":775.531,"text":"在現行的制度之下光是利益迴避迴避這件事情也會發生在憲法法庭身上往往因為迴避的問題人數的部分也會有影響"},{"start":794.924,"end":811.533,"text":"我並不是百分之百反對修法這個是貴院的職權但是修法必須要有配套甚至貴院在行使大法官提名審查的同意權的時候也應該有所配套"},{"start":812.52,"end":812.94,"text":"我們也希望是這樣"},{"start":828.752,"end":847.061,"text":"那再來就是我想請教一下就是身為女性的大法官我們是如何看待這個兒少性侵害的案件這個追溯期的一個部分我舉個例子來講我相信這個25年過去了那這位受害者呢他現在是32歲"},{"start":848.641,"end":863.72,"text":"事件發生的時候他當年才7歲那他當年7歲呢好不容易現在32歲他可能也許在社會上在工作上他有一定的一個自我自我認知的一個意識喔他想要回過頭來勇敢的站出來來對"},{"start":865.562,"end":895.025,"text":"曾經對他加害人的親戚來做提告的一個動作但是也很無奈的就是說當時在1999年的時候他的刑法還沒有修訂當時的追溯期限只有20年那也就是說以當時的20年到他能夠在2019年的8月底這個才是他的能夠追溯的範圍但因為他今年才站出來所以導致"},{"start":895.623,"end":895.883,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":908.888,"end":926.584,"text":"加害就是被害人呢其實他們在步入社會那在有正常的工作他能夠去勇敢的面對自己的過去那曾經啊我們在這個衛福部也有特別做過一些統計然後在衛福部的統計2023年性侵害的被害人總共有9413人其中呢"},{"start":930.981,"end":959.604,"text":"18歲以下的高達了有5155人而這5155人當中又有80%是熟人加害所為這些熟人包含哪一些呢家人、親戚、老師甚至於所謂的體育老師、教練等等這是所謂的熟人所以光是這樣子對於所謂的權力不等或者是他們害怕、恐懼"},{"start":960.685,"end":987.741,"text":"到我們的追溯期我今天要談的就是我們的追溯期喔那雖然我們現在追溯期是20年到30年的一個現行的一個規範但在有一些國家甚至在美國有許多州他們其實是沒有追溯期的也希望能夠取消這追溯期身為女性法官您對於所謂的兒少被性侵的案件那今年這件我剛剛所說的這個例子它現在也在今年3月喔"},{"start":988.407,"end":994.021,"text":"我們的憲法法庭也來受理了那您對這個追溯期的部分您的看法"},{"start":994.753,"end":1021.202,"text":"好,謝謝委員的提問那這個問題是刑法第80條規定一律以犯罪成立的時間點來計算而且只有依法定型的輕重定有不同的追溯期所導致的問題那這裡其實真正的爭點就像剛剛委員所說的沒有考量犯罪被害人的特殊情況比如說兒少性侵害的特殊情況裡面被害人年紀較小提出刑事告訴有困難"},{"start":1022.482,"end":1049.403,"text":"加害者跟被害人有緊張的關係或是有權勢關係國家事實上也很難去發現這些被害人的處境等等如果從這個角度來看再加上我們對於比較法上面的研究的粗淺心得我想兒少性侵案的犯罪追溯期怎麼期算或者追溯期間的長短我個人基於學理的立場我認為是有追溯空間的"},{"start":1050.724,"end":1072.292,"text":"我的理解是今年已經有立法委員也提出了修正案希望能夠去研擬、排除或改為被害人成年之後才開始計算追溯期這樣的講法當然法務部還沒有完全接納這樣子的主張也許這個就必須要再做更進一步的民主審議跟協調"},{"start":1074.232,"end":1088.741,"text":"這是針對刑法的部分那另外其實在針對所謂的民法球場的部分我想這個是完全嚴重的跟不上那我相信您應該也非常的清楚在民事球場的部分是不是也應該要得到一些重視因為"},{"start":1089.441,"end":1118.24,"text":"目前現行的這個民法求償的部分他是受害人必須要知悉自己被侵害兩年之內或者是發生行為的10年之內那我們可想而知剛剛我所提到的這位被害者他是在7歲的時候也就是說當他7歲甚至現在有很多我們收到的一些陳情案件他們受害者的年紀更小是5歲他要在7歲的時候兩年之內他要知道自己原來這樣叫做被性侵"},{"start":1118.94,"end":1146.054,"text":"才能夠去提起所謂的這個民事的求償的部分這個部分我想應該也是嚴重的落後是不是也一併要納入考慮是是謝謝委員提問我剛剛沒有講完的就是說關於刑事的那個部分因為現在已經有釋憲案在憲法法庭系署當中所以我其實不方便發表這個這個具體的評論那立法上面呢我覺得就是要靠各位關心而造"},{"start":1146.714,"end":1148.535,"text":"佛立立法委員"},{"start":1172.681,"end":1199.32,"text":"上一屆的立委也有人提出來過民法徵定197條之一的條文草案我想可能委員也清楚是對未成年人受到性侵跟妨害性自主的行為所生的損害賠償請求權從被害人成年期開始起算20年我覺得這或許是一個可能的解決方式但是這個是委員們的立法形成空間我就不便再多說了"},{"start":1199.72,"end":1201.121,"text":"謝謝郭委員、謝謝貝提敏人下一位我們請陳玉珍委員詢問"},{"start":1230.527,"end":1230.708,"text":"謝主席"}]}},{"id":"158104","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158104","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/50d02d9c955f8e2d37f466f53ce672980341d36cd1de3acc905041b3116858180a3ad233f9b498fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:50:31 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問一下AI成為認知作戰的利器請問一下你個人對於最近中共在"},{"start":790.686,"end":802.812,"text":"接連兩次的聯合立見的軍演期間：有消息指出：國台辦指導在陸的臺親及陸籍人士：在臉書上面頻繁的創建異常的帳號：還有多組的社團：對臺進行認知戰："},{"start":807.654,"end":824.628,"text":"近3個月以來發現有154組的臉書帳號及40組的社團有明顯的異常的態樣那因屬於集團式的操作那你個人如何看待這個國安問題呢因為我們的國安單位到現在還不願意對外公開證實"},{"start":826.369,"end":839.336,"text":"是的,我想這不僅是台灣的國安問題而已對全世界每一個國家尤其是處在對抗威權體制的第一線國家來說基本上都是嚴重的問題"},{"start":842.315,"end":870.144,"text":"這些事情的確都存在國際上也有很多的機構在合作處理這樣的事情我覺得我們的國安單位或許可以更積極一點來處理這樣的事情不過在這裡我想必須要提醒大家的事尤其提醒立法院的事要處理這些問題基本上都不免會涉及到人民的基本權利保障的事"},{"start":870.964,"end":871.725,"text":"法律保留原則"},{"start":889.059,"end":903.273,"text":"法律明確性原則等等等這些基本的要求來檢視這樣子的立法跟措施我想這個就是一個立法部門或者是政治部門的一個"},{"start":904.955,"end":919.929,"text":"政策形成空間的問題以後大法官能夠把關的就是到底在所謂的公共利益的保護跟人民權利的保護上面應該如何做成適當的平衡跟協調"},{"start":920.97,"end":943.499,"text":"好那照你剛才這樣講那現在AI的技術確實是一個產業還有為大家生活帶來很多的便利但是同時也是一個雙面刃所以AI技術加速新型犯罪與認知作戰那你如果說像請教一下就是如果中共用AI對台灣認知作戰這樣你會不會擔心呢"},{"start":944.299,"end":970.17,"text":"我想我是擔心的我是擔心的但是我要更加的強調就是說這樣子的作戰如何去反抗或如何進一步的去反擊基本上必須要有立法部門跟行政部門的共同工作那我剛才講的這些就是說但你會覺得說這樣是不是有跟中國有一點裡應外合的嫌疑還是我們台灣根本沒有能力查出來呢依照你的專業"},{"start":972.092,"end":987.151,"text":"我覺得台灣並不是沒有能力查出來但是因為科技變化得太快所以有時候不管立法部門或行政部門沒有辦法真正跟得上"},{"start":988.452,"end":1013.626,"text":"再加上立法部門跟行政部門之間的共識可能不是很高所以其實就變得更加的困難至於有沒有理運外合這些事情我覺得就必須要看我們的法律我們的政策上面要怎麼樣界定這些事不管如何如果要處罰的話Again 我要講的是說必須要有清楚的法律來做這樣的處理"},{"start":1017.169,"end":1035.329,"text":"我們在保護國家的同時可能也沒有辦法去冤枉任何一個台灣中華民國的國民說他如何如何必須要有清楚的法律才能夠界定基本上誰是有問題的誰應該受到什麼樣的處罰"},{"start":1038.307,"end":1059.559,"text":"最後一個問題我想請教一下就是你對廢除死刑究竟是支持還是反對請明確的表態跟委員報告我曾經擔任過臺灣人權促進會的會長我到目前為止我個人的理念向來都是我們應該走向一個沒有死刑的國家"},{"start":1061.604,"end":1079.417,"text":"但是因為憲判制第8號其實已經做了死刑核限的判決雖然我個人對於這個死刑核限的判決感到非常的遺憾但是也覺得裡面還有一些沒有講清楚的地方"},{"start":1081.078,"end":1103.048,"text":"應該要處理的地方比如說我在問卷回答裡面特別強調的我們這個國家這麼多年來想要廢除死刑甚至政府部門也做了一些努力但是非常可惜的是我們在被害人保護的這個部分做得不夠好不夠多"},{"start":1104.755,"end":1126.584,"text":"包括被害人家屬如何參加訴訟程序．獲得一個舒緩．我覺得這個部分都是做得不夠好的．事實上我過去在社運圈裡面．在處理廢死的相關議題的時候．我們也花了很多的力氣．跟被害人．跟被害人家屬．"},{"start":1127.484,"end":1156.061,"text":"以及政府部門做了非常多的溝通跟倡議的工作我們現在僅有的這些法律規定保護被害人家屬的法律規定坦白講很多都是我們在民間團體的時候去倡議出來的那我覺得政府應該負擔更多立法部門應該負擔更多保護被害人家屬的工作"},{"start":1157.267,"end":1159.209,"text":"有關今年9月20號大法官釋憲113年的憲判制第8號的判決主文"},{"start":1182.791,"end":1195.946,"text":"理由是說明在國民法官案件中是指職業法官以自決也就是不包括素人法官我想聽聽看你這樣對這個有什麼看法"},{"start":1197.027,"end":1197.227,"text":"謝謝林委員"},{"start":1223.239,"end":1225.964,"text":"謝謝被提名人接下來請郭育秦委員詢問"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}