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結局不法我覺得這個對於整個台灣陽光透明價值的建立至關重要那只不過說上個禮拜五的時候我們雖然提了研會的通知到晚上十二點"},{"start":2218.48,"end":2236.082,"text":"對嘛那院長才是說這個案子要協商嘛那我們基本上當天我也是事後有跟院長報告我們原則上對於院長在主持議事的程序當中當場所做的裁決台灣民眾黨黨團原則上"},{"start":2238.044,"end":2267.413,"text":"都是尊重的那只不過說我覺得規矩我們還是要說清楚我們上個禮拜五沒有堅持就願意讓院長再來召集協商處理吹哨者保護法的部分那今天如果因為有黨團沒有來那導致這個法案沒有辦法進入實質的協商的話我們雖然覺得很遺憾但我們也尊重因為總不能強迫人家一定要來嘛"},{"start":2268.564,"end":2288.022,"text":"在尊重但是很遺憾的情況下我們要特別的再跟院長拜託接下來我們就會按照立法院職權行事法以及議事規則相關的規定要求院會必須要處理催少者保護法否則的話這樣一拖再拖"},{"start":2288.863,"end":2311.675,"text":"不曉得又要再拖多久了。這個恐怕不符合整個社會的期待。我想針對臺灣民眾黨黨團特別重視的催少者保護法這件事情,要特別的跟院長做以上的報告跟請求。各位黨團幹部還有各位委員,我想大家都很多話講,但政部長跟教育部練習官員都在。我們先請政部長來表達這個我們"},{"start":2315.27,"end":2328.226,"text":"各機關公正人士推的課程審議委員會審查會簡短扼要的報告完我們就請教育部官員來離場我們來討論這樣對教育部官員比較尊重好不好那請各位委員請聽一下我們請歡迎政務長請"},{"start":2331.036,"end":2345.791,"text":"謝謝,謝謝院長,謝謝主席還有各位委員。主要是要跟各位委員報告,也請,敬請各位委員來支持進速的召開課程審議委員會的一個審查會。根據這個高級中等教育法,一百零五年六月一號,"},{"start":2346.997,"end":2347.398,"text":"﹐國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":2365.888,"end":2391.935,"text":"今年有十七位的委員在十二月二十四號他們任期屆滿每一任都是四年每一次更換所有的委員都是要經過立法院推舉的社會公正人士由十一位到十五位的社會公正人士來組成課程審議委員會委員的審查會而且每一個委員按政黨"},{"start":2392.875,"end":2394.642,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議"},{"start":2399.232,"end":2412.884,"text":"通過二分之一以後社會公正人士才能夠擔任我們的課程審議委員所以在這一個部分也利用今天特別謝謝院長能夠排進這個議程希望我們能夠在這個課程審議大會的非政府代表的審議這些委員的社會公正人士"},{"start":2427.677,"end":2427.997,"text":"（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":2450.92,"end":2458.144,"text":"等這些,而且他必須要過半,所以做這樣的一個補充說明。以上,謝謝院長。"},{"start":2487.403,"end":2487.883,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":2514.04,"end":2540.239,"text":"教育部剛才也把他們的觀點講出來了當然這是依法來做個推舉相關的人員那到底是十一位到十五位到底要幾位那當然站在國民黨的立場我想這一屆的國會呢那對於說我們要推舉多少人按政黨的比例如果是十五位當然是七七一如果是十四位就七六一"},{"start":2541.44,"end":2567.327,"text":"那正在本黨的立場我們是如果是十四位是可行的當然我們是認為用十四位來這個推舉十四位上去就是一七六一的比例來做推舉以上先跟林思明書記長報告一下這邊暫定就是七一到時候細節到時候我們等下一次正式協商的時候再因為今天是一個不完整的協商好不好"},{"start":2568.342,"end":2585.696,"text":"另外那個黃總長我特別報告上禮拜五我們開會大概在中午只有休息十五分鐘從早開到下午散會只有休息十五分鐘這十五分鐘是什麼呢?就是主席還有一些人簡單吃點東西吃了一片披薩就繼續開會那會議就後面很順"},{"start":2588.658,"end":2610.165,"text":"那開會所有的議程是根據國民黨、民進黨團都已經簽字了。總共十九個案子,我們全部審查完畢。我也不知道怎麼會冒出選罷法這三個字。因為選罷法都已經講好了,是下禮拜五再處理。這兩天沸沸揚揚,一直在說選罷法什麼什麼什麼,放水啊什麼,我自己都非常的迷糊。"},{"start":2610.925,"end":2634.184,"text":"而且那天,我記得在場不管是傅根琦總召、王洪輝、林思明書記長都很清楚,大家都簽字了19個法律案要排。然後在審查的時候林思明書記長突然把15萬抽回來,就是證券交易法。最後協調完也尊重林思明書記長的決定,就剩下18個案子。全部審查完畢,我才喊休息的。"},{"start":2635.134,"end":2646.737,"text":"我不曉得為什麼會有這麼多謠言滿天飛啊我覺得非常非常的奇怪那我們我怎麼看草野協商這是立法院各黨之間表達意見最重要的一個平台"},{"start":2647.631,"end":2675.496,"text":"最重要的一個平台。所以我們非常尊重草野協商這個機制。但很遺憾今天民進黨因為他有一個理由他不來。其實我是覺得蠻遺憾。我希望大家能夠各黨團能夠珍惜這個草野協商這個平台。把自己的意見、把自己想要的法案、把自己的擔心或是不接受的你都在這裡發揮嘛。這樣就好啦。所以我在這邊再澄清一下。我相信林世民書記長跟王輝副書記長可以作證吧。那天你們都簽字的。那為什麼會有這些謠言呢?"},{"start":2676.909,"end":2690.781,"text":"為什麼?我覺得很奇怪。好,請黃國昌總召集。謝謝院長。上個禮拜五,兩大黨有簽了什麼東西,我老實講,我真的不是很清楚。"},{"start":2692.762,"end":2720.527,"text":"我唯一有簽的就原住民組織法的部分那我們就簽按照那個各黨團推派代表因為這個事情其實從委員會到院會也爭執過很多次那各黨團的立場都很清楚所以上禮拜我只有針對原住民組織法的部分我有簽名簽名的理由是說各黨團派代表上去把話講清楚非常的好"},{"start":2721.776,"end":2731.906,"text":"至於說上個禮拜五只處理哪些法案的這件事情我可以很負責任的跟院長報告我根本不知道"},{"start":2733.444,"end":2758.459,"text":"在院長就是您休息的時候請我到後面的休息室我也很清楚的跟院長表達我希望臺灣民眾黨黨團希望的立場就是我們到底接下來要怎麼運作這件事情有一個清楚的規則讓各個黨團都可以知道我的意思是說每一個不同的黨團"},{"start":2760.845,"end":2785.535,"text":"對自己的優先法案的順序,一定有每一個不同黨團的價值選擇。台灣民眾黨黨團有沒有我們希望排第一案的?我可以跟院長負責任的報告,有,當然有。我希望吹哨者保護法放第一案。但我也知道,台灣民眾黨黨團在立法院裡面只有八席,那也不可能事事順我的意嘛。"},{"start":2786.485,"end":2810.186,"text":"但重點是什麼?重點是我不會因為台灣民眾黨黨團希望排第一案沒有辦法排成。我就用暴力的手段去讓其他黨團沒有辦法開會。我也不會用暴力的手段去阻止其他黨團去提他們變更議程的案子。每一個黨團依照議事規則本來就有權利提變更議程。我不會用暴力的手段去阻止其他黨團提變更議程。"},{"start":2812.236,"end":2826.65,"text":"我也不會用暴力的手段去阻止其他黨團變更議程的議案不能夠交付表決。我們當然有我們的立場。我們會提出來。如果能夠得到其他人的認可跟同意,那我們覺得非常的好,也很感謝。"},{"start":2827.813,"end":2828.133,"text":"（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":2846.459,"end":2847.159,"text":"﹐國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":2867.446,"end":2895.36,"text":"都要搞到變成是叢林法則的話,我覺得這絕對不是全體國人所樂見的。立委不僅要問政,不僅要研究法案,要去監督行政部門,你搞到立委還要去練身體,這個可能就too much了啦。因為你看我,我其實有時候看我們院內這麼多的同仁,特別是年輕的同仁,大家這麼辛苦,其實看了大家冷靜想一想,有必要嗎?"},{"start":2896.44,"end":2925.504,"text":"有必要嗎?大家有不同的看法每一個政黨依照自己的政策立場對社會負責嘛如果我今天支持的立場是台灣社會的民眾都沒有辦法接受的那一定會反映在我自己政黨會遭受到社會輿論的批判嘛民主政治本來就是這個樣子民主政治我們希望的是透過民主審議的方式而不是比拳頭的方式那否則的話我覺得院長"},{"start":2927.583,"end":2937.818,"text":"將心比心啊我站在您的位置上我也會覺得你很辛苦啊你要主持一個簡單的會議程序都要搞到你要冒"},{"start":2938.939,"end":2940.741,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":2960.973,"end":2981.381,"text":"但是我相信站在您的立場,你一定不樂見嘛。你是一個堂堂的國會議長,被鎖在那個防務措施裡面,那個能看嗎?但是換另外一個角度講,那我們到底要透過什麼樣的方式,才有辦法好好的開會?當然我知道您作為國會議長,有您的難處。"},{"start":2984.451,"end":3013.233,"text":"你也不希望每次都在槍林彈雨當中去主持會議,主持一個會議應該不用還要戴鋼盔啊。但是我要退,就是說我還是要退一步講,就是我要跟院長報告的是,上個禮拜五,接避者保護法,我必須要再重申一次台灣民眾黨團的立場,從我們的角度,該進行的法定程序已經進行完了。"},{"start":3014.836,"end":3023.189,"text":"該進行的法定程序已經進行完了。我們在委員會裡面有詢答有公聽會有大體討論有逐條討論進了協商冷凍期"},{"start":3028.41,"end":3056.178,"text":"委員會也召集過黨團協商,沒有辦法獲自共識。所以對台灣民眾黨黨團來講,我們最卑微的要求就是希望按照議事規則,讓這個法案有到院會處理的機會。有到院會處理的機會。那上禮拜五,院長您決定,說這個再行協商以後再來處理。老實講,從我們的角度,我們覺得很驚訝。但我也尊重院長的裁決。"},{"start":3057.498,"end":3071.824,"text":"但是我就今天來這邊協商,我特別要講這件事情,就不能夠這樣子一拖再拖,不能夠這樣子一拖再拖,該處理的時候就應該要處理。這個是我們跟院長所做的報告跟請求。"},{"start":3206.317,"end":3212.122,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3232.34,"end":3238.772,"text":"三、研商、「憲法訴訟法第三十條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3244.727,"end":3246.288,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3271.519,"end":3273.5,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3301.957,"end":3303.198,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3327.697,"end":3329.619,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3347.413,"end":3354.641,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3369.002,"end":3371.184,"text":"還有什麼好談的院長?我們等候你已經六個小時了院長。"},{"start":3395.008,"end":3420.351,"text":"這個是有開會的牌議程的齁。請按照議程。早上的內政委員會也是很正式的開會議程。你們可以把會議搞得這樣閉門擋人。你們可以霸占主席台。你們這種孤獨的。你們怎麼能決定不來了。今天誰霸占主席台。你們這四人。我們在門外就等院長十五分鐘。"},{"start":3422.079,"end":3423.864,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":3426.394,"end":3434.339,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3453.852,"end":3456.453,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3476.886,"end":3479.908,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨團提議"},{"start":3493.875,"end":3494.075,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3512.446,"end":3517.829,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3537.199,"end":3557.166,"text":"請優先來處理今天上午選罷法的爭議。沒有比國會創下這種前所未有的民主支持。院長要出面解決。院長是立法院的院長,不是國民黨的院長。立法院的院長要意識中立,依立法院職權刑事法解決爭議。這是院長的職責。"},{"start":3565.069,"end":3567.05,"text":"國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（"},{"start":3595.003,"end":3616.318,"text":"韓院長你縱容這樣的立法院嗎?我說過這邊開十五分鐘以後我會宣布休息到那邊去。你們在那邊可以自由表達。你現在讓他們表達。他們如期通知兩點全部坐在這裡。我一定要讓他們講話。你們現在到大櫃室我等一下會過去。早上我們在那裡排隊等開會。連進入會場的機會充滿。你遵守他們講話的權利。讓我們講話的權利在揚。"},{"start":3622.142,"end":3623.344,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3635.683,"end":3636.964,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3665.658,"end":3679.348,"text":"十月二十一號審查玩具（然後二十四號交付協商（這是什麼立法院毀憲亂政的法案（用這種過水的協商（韓國瑜院長（你是哪一黨的院長（要再當歷史的罪人嗎（翁小玲連德國財政審查局是什麼都不懂（"},{"start":3694.94,"end":3696.703,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3707.222,"end":3708.103,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3729.424,"end":3734.328,"text":"不管是幾十名警衛或是國民黨委員（民進黨不開門就是不開門。2011年8月1號的新聞大家回去看一下。民進黨已經創了很多例子了。"},{"start":3743.223,"end":3743.863,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3771.838,"end":3779.983,"text":"民進黨創下六十年開會的會議紀錄。民進黨鎖門2011年。民進黨鎖門。沒有信我傳給我。民進黨不要再用言語暴力了齁。用論理的。大家來論理喔。"},{"start":3801.528,"end":3803.91,"text":"五分鐘後就過去了啊,你們這樣。"},{"start":3822.122,"end":3822.803,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3840.902,"end":3863.727,"text":"現在是休息嗎?休息嗎?現在的時間是政黨協商,不是不給你們十五分鐘。大家了解一下。你們不要來鬧場,民進黨連草野協商都鬧場了。創下惡意,民進黨連草野協商都要鬧場了。"},{"start":3871.492,"end":3872.454,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4348.814,"end":4350.705,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024121382","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"158185","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158185","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a10c439f3b3decc8b4c691fc1ddc1369661b05595a75c08a28f952555c339954dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:23:08 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37.533,"text":"剛剛有講到說健康操的時間你有看到投訴的內容嗎投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告你還是覺得賴清德總統管理不當你想看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當"},{"start":52.156,"end":70.673,"text":"他是深蹲要報告欸!這個請理事長...我先跟大家說明一下,那個委員會在報告,那個深蹲他那個不是報告,他那個是說大家各科大家就是邊運動然後大家做一些...邊運動邊開會!邊深蹲邊開會!大家就講一些..."},{"start":78.362,"end":102.932,"text":"其實最主要是大家輪流然後在這裡面也有一些除了身體上面留另外一方面大家也可以分享一些我們的一些其他的事情而且我跟各位報告這真的不是強迫的部長你自己有看過你們那個六頁的報告嗎但是其實內容只有四頁有一頁還是空白頁你自己有看過嗎有的"},{"start":104.545,"end":117.355,"text":"我說部長有有有那部長你講的出來是哪些人被懲處嗎?被懲處的原因是什麼?因為被懲處的人啊現在大家都不認識根本就不是我們質詢問你的人都不是"},{"start":120.831,"end":145.711,"text":"都在懲罰小的、大的全部都放掉了然後你們現在說管理不當記過然後又說深蹲一起開會報告事情不叫霸凌那我問你啊你們這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決?你可以請同仁出來說這個是我們這個部門一起願意每天要一起做這個是共識決嗎?"},{"start":147.284,"end":169.192,"text":"報告委員我想兩個重點第一個就是您剛剛說的其實我們這些我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且物中但是也物往所以整個這個程序裡面完全都是尊重外部委員他的一個整個獨立的判斷一個專業的判斷其實這個是一個所以他到最後結果是怎麼樣老實說我們真的不能干涉"},{"start":170.532,"end":195.207,"text":"但是我們要尊重專業的一個整個他的這個判斷的一個最後結果我聽懂了部長現在都是外部委員寫的所以我們要尊重外部委員但是部長你也有你的政治責任所以部長你願意為這個報告背書嗎還是你不願意因為是外部委員寫的我們完全尊重我們完全尊重這個所以你們不願意為這份報告背書不是"},{"start":196.792,"end":212.82,"text":"報告委員其實最重要的其實真的我們要尊重這個整個專業上面的一些評斷還有我也跟委員報告我們整個過程裡面其實除了我們有四位的外部委員是獨立的另外第二個就是說我們在這個過程裡面我們有訪談了將近96位的同仁"},{"start":214.861,"end":216.822,"text":"為什麼會有人為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情就是因為你現在講的事情完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯嗎"},{"start":238.795,"end":249.13,"text":"你為什麼不將心比心?如果賴清德總統跟你說你們必須要先親身啊!你等人家來他殺那都一把火啦!你要先親身才可以表示你的誠意啊!"},{"start":250.457,"end":276.334,"text":"你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎?其實很多事情這個都要還原當時的這一個只有講一次要長期是這個意思嗎?當然還有另外一個您剛剛說那個輕生的這些那個是整個在業務在整個公文指導上面我承認這個我也同意這個用詞是真的他可是管理社工的人他是應該要是全國最重視我們心理健康的人"},{"start":277.435,"end":277.455,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":297.943,"end":323.275,"text":"報告委員他本來是社保司司長所以你的意思是說哇你們剛剛楊楊撒撒、劉建國委員列出來這些人都是中階的幹部被離職所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部最上面的都是管理不當你覺得大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎?各位報告委員其實齁真的我覺得整個這個過程裡面齁我覺得真的要物重"},{"start":324.448,"end":339.197,"text":"但是呢我覺得也不能夠也勿往啦因為這個就是我們整個處理我想那個邱信仁委員剛剛也說嘛就是要勿縱勿往而且過程一定公開透明那整個這個程序"},{"start":340.958,"end":356.05,"text":"沒關係,我們簡單的回答一下,現在你們衛福部下面有做這個健康操的部門有哪些?然後哪些是共識出來的?哪些是司長規定的?很簡單啊,大家只想知道到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的還是共識的?還是可參加可不參加?"},{"start":361.704,"end":369.214,"text":"報告委員我覺得這個我也昨天我也前天在跟回應記者的時候我也說我個人認為這個是非常不當的那個行為"},{"start":369.983,"end":379.109,"text":"那你現在取消了嗎?你取消所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位了嗎?那可以不用參加嗎?你會宣布說可以不用參加嗎?從現在開始?那我們要看到你發布的這個發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個人書"},{"start":400.563,"end":420.694,"text":"我覺得你講這個東西很不符合我們一般人民的標準我問你如果你們在開行政院院會賴清德總統行政院長說欸現在健康上的時間大家自由選擇要不要參加齁"},{"start":422.628,"end":443.839,"text":"您覺得有人敢不跳嗎?報告委員,我必須再一次強調,那個只是那個時間在那邊至於您願不願意,我們當然還是基本上鼓勵是,剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了霸凌的形式有哪些,其中也有包括心理的壓力那你一個時間定在那邊,主管都已經在做了"},{"start":444.844,"end":451.846,"text":"你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎?所以你們的報告其實意思是說中階主管卻有霸凌的事實但是管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當所以被記小過這是你們報告的意思不是嗎?"},{"start":474.551,"end":493.76,"text":"報告委員,我們所有的,我們說有一分證據說一分話,有一分證據我們就辦一分案。同樣的,我們現在目前的整個這個懲處其實也是,我再一次強調,就是我們的外部的獨立委員,他們在經過相關的量化資料以及……好,那你的報告完全也沒寫出?"},{"start":497.041,"end":525.678,"text":"這個中階主管他們霸凌屬實後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來這跟所有我們接到的投書的內容都完全不一樣雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投書的內容已經就是霸凌的事實了可是你的報告都沒有寫喔我們現在都不知道喔就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情我們完全不知道我們這個沒有真的完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情但是我剛剛說就是說必須Evidence based"},{"start":526.098,"end":529.079,"text":"這是教育部105年公告的學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項明訂體罰的樣態以及範圍但是呢您說福利挺身不算是體罰霸凌而是PK我想請教一下這個教育部明訂出來體罰紅框框理念"},{"start":552.148,"end":576.577,"text":"福利挺身是不是不用算在內?以後老師都可以叫學生福利挺身?PK?報告委員我再還原一下正如剛剛部長剛剛有說的嘛只有一次而已22月那一次剛好就有一個新進同仁進來他在那邊說他有做健身那剛好他說有另外一位替代役他也說他會做福利挺身那大家就起哄嘛"},{"start":577.979,"end":585.032,"text":"所以在整個過程影片過程裡面各位那個委員也可以看到所以你覺得大家如果是起哄和樂融融為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來"},{"start":589.121,"end":590.642,"text":"所以未來你們衛福部可以訂一個PK表PK是OK的"},{"start":611.081,"end":638.02,"text":"報告委員因為我們剛剛已經說了我們不會我們會提供這一個健康操時間但是用什麼形式這基本上完全尊重同仁所以這個基本上就不涉及要不要定那些我覺得還是要就是部長也常常跟我們講我們將心我們站在這個同仁的立場我們就是要給同仁一個最好的一個整個有尊嚴的而且最好的資產環境我也跟委員報告剛剛劉建國委員我也要說其實"},{"start":638.84,"end":639.22,"text":"我是具體建議啦,因為很多人"},{"start":666.844,"end":667.404,"text":"下一題,對不起,主持我想問部長。"},{"start":696.26,"end":723.842,"text":"部長我看到這個新聞我是非常難過因為我這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我我聽完這些故事以後我覺得蠻痛苦的因為同樣身為女生很多醫生希望透過我來發聲說他們看到全國的醫師看到全國的醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長管理醫事法的是你沒錯吧醫療法的主管機關也是你沒錯吧"},{"start":725.631,"end":728.753,"text":"我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人"},{"start":753.193,"end":773.75,"text":"請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位會務部長不用做什麼嗎?你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。"},{"start":775.271,"end":800.626,"text":"所以好像已經離職了那如果有司法或者是他看他的情節如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是工會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎"},{"start":803.924,"end":805.226,"text":"主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。那你會去關心嗎?"},{"start":816.366,"end":843.371,"text":"這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你的醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關"},{"start":844.511,"end":865.901,"text":"沒有。前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會。後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的。那部長你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎?畢竟說不定裡面有一些人也是你認識的。受害者。我們目前只有初步的了解就是臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查以上。"},{"start":869.517,"end":875.803,"text":"因為你是這個性殺老防治法的主責機關我會想問說保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心在整個調查過程有沒有降時有沒有疏失這些有沒有被接住因為他們是長期是長達3、4年以上的"},{"start":890.353,"end":907.038,"text":"您們要不要做?您們要不要做這件事?要不要主動?按照信訊法防治法他是採取所謂的告示也就是被害人要申訴那他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查調查屬實之後會到審議會去做行政裁處"},{"start":911.058,"end":925.726,"text":"部長我還是希望因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情至少免除新的受害者很多人很擔心啊也有的病人說啊原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生都有性騷寫在網路上寫在dcard那但是他現在卻還在執行業務這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢是不是應該是你的責任呢"},{"start":936.038,"end":941.491,"text":"你不是管全國醫師的人嗎那你也應該保護這群受害的女醫師啊"},{"start":944.356,"end":966.904,"text":"我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於一屆的幹部我們有責任來關心所有醫師的工作的場所是不是安全然後很愉快部長你真的要大魄大力很多人期待你可以做一點事情因為這些事情在這個一屆長期"},{"start":969.685,"end":973.787,"text":"有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係這些事可能不只在這個地方有發生好,我想我們會委由我會來拜託那個議事公會全聯會大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明"},{"start":990.404,"end":997.981,"text":"好,我想我們把事情理得更清楚以後一定會有守立場我們會再繼續追你好,沒問題謝謝好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1134,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（10時23分）主席、各位委員，我也想請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：邱部長，我剛剛聽了這麼多委員質詢，我有一種濃濃的既視感，大概幾個禮拜以前何佩珊就是跟你類似的態度跟說法，說這份報告很用心。管理不當？剛剛有講到健康操的時間，你有看到投訴的內容嗎？投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸！你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告，你還會覺得賴清德總統管理不當嗎？你講看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當？他是深蹲要報告欸！"],["邱部長泰源：這個請呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：我簡單說明一下，委員，我跟你報告，那個深蹲，他不是報告，那是各科大家邊運動，然後做一些……"],["陳委員菁徽：邊運動邊開會？邊深蹲邊開會？"],["呂次長建德：大家就講一些……其實最主要是大家輪流，在這裡面也有一些……除了身體上面，另外一方面大家也可以分享一些其他的事情，而且我跟委員報告，這真的不是強迫的。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你自己有看過你們那個6頁的報告嗎？但是其實內容只有4頁，有一頁還是空白頁，你自己有看過嗎？"],["呂次長建德：有的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我說部長。"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你講得出來是哪些人被懲處嗎？被懲處的原因是什麼？因為現在被懲處的人，大家都不認識，根本就不是我們質詢問你的人，都不是！都在懲罰小的，大的全部都放掉了，然後你們現在說管理不當、記過，然後又說深蹲是一起開會、報告事情，不叫霸凌。那我問你，這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決？你可以請同仁出來說，這是這個部門願意每天要一起做的，這個是共識決嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我想兩個重點，第一個就是您剛剛說的，我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且勿縱，但是也勿枉，所以整個程序完全都是尊重外部委員的獨立判斷、專業判斷。它到最後結果是怎麼樣？老實說，我們真的不能干涉，但是我們要尊重專業判斷的最後結果，而且我也跟委員報告……"],["陳委員菁徽：我已經聽懂了！我聽懂了！現在都是外部委員寫的，所以我們要尊重外部委員，但是部長也有你的政治責任，你願意為這個報告背書嗎？還是你不願意？因為是外部委員寫的。"],["呂次長建德：我們完全尊重委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們不願意為這份報告背書？"],["呂次長建德：不是！我們真的要尊重專業上的一些評斷。我也跟委員報告，整個過程裡面，除了我們有四位外部委員是獨立的。另外第二個，我們在這過程裡面，有訪談將近96位同仁，然後這之前……"],["陳委員菁徽：有，報告上都有寫，所以……"],["呂次長建德：所以整個量化的……還有這裡面透過所謂量化跟質化的交叉比對，事實上就等於法庭上面調查的、類似證詞。"],["陳委員菁徽：為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情？就是因為你現在講的事情，完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯。你為什麼不將心比心？如果賴清德總統跟你說，你們必須要先輕生，你等人家來他殺，那都一把火了。你要先輕生才可以表示你的誠意，你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎？"],["呂次長建德：其實很多事情都要還原當時的……"],["陳委員菁徽：只有講一次，要長期，是這個意思嗎？"],["呂次長建德：當然。還有另外一個，您剛剛說輕生的這些，那是在公文指導上，我承認也同意這個用詞、比喻真的不當。"],["陳委員菁徽：他可是管理社工的人，應該要是全國最重視心理健康的人，然後自殺、他殺，他可以這麼簡單的就說出口！"],["呂次長建德：我們真的認為他比喻不當，所以才會給他兩支申誡……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是他還在擔任原來的位置，不是嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我們現在把他調離社保司司長了。"],["陳委員菁徽：那是不是他本來的位置？他本來就是主秘了。他本來就是，好嗎？然後你們就是……"],["呂次長建德：他本來是社保司司長。"],["陳委員菁徽：你的意思是，剛剛劉建國委員洋洋灑灑列出來的這些人，都是中階的幹部被離職，所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部，最上面的都是管理不當？你覺得大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我覺得這個過程裡面真的要勿縱，但是我覺得也勿枉，因為這個就是我們整個處理……我想蘇清泉委員剛剛也說，這些事情就是要勿縱勿枉，而且過程一定公開透明。整個程序這樣走下來，其實……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，沒關係，簡單回答一下。現在衛福部轄下有做健康操的部門有哪些？哪些是共識出來的？哪些是司長規定的？很簡單，大家只想知道，到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的，還是共識的？還是可參加、可不參加？"],["呂次長建德：我前天回應記者的時候也說，我個人認為這個是非常不當的行為。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你現在取消了嗎？所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位取消了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：健康操是我們的一個……誠如剛剛部長說的，這是一個開放的時間，也鼓勵，但是做什麼形式，這是個人的行為自由，主管沒有任何權力去要求。"],["陳委員菁徽：可以不用參加嗎？你有宣布可以不用參加嗎？"],["呂次長建德：of course、當然可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：從現在開始，我們要看到你發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個文書。"],["呂次長建德：這個本來就是自由的，就是一個時間，時間一到就放韻律……"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得你講這個東西很不符合一般人民的標準。我問你，如果你們在開行政院院會，賴清德總統、行政院長說，現在是健康操時間，大家自由選擇要不要參加，你覺得有人敢不跳嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我必須再一次強調，那只是有個時間在那邊，至於願不願意，我們當然基本上還是鼓勵。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了，霸凌的形式有哪些，其中也有包括心理的壓力，一個時間定在那邊，主管都已經在做了，你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們是不是要有健康操這樣的時間，或者是內容要怎麼樣，整個部及所屬機關一定來檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們報告的意思是，中階主管確有霸凌的事實，但管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當，所以被記小過。這是你們報告的意思，不是嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不是！有一分證據，說一分話；有一分證據，我們就辦一分案。同樣的，目前整個懲處，我再一次強調，就是外部的獨立委員在經過相關的量化資料以及進行訪談之後……"],["陳委員菁徽：你的報告完全沒寫出中階主管霸凌屬實，及後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來，這跟我們接到投訴的內容都完全不一樣，雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投訴的內容就是霸凌的事實了，可是你的報告都沒有寫，我們現在都不知道，就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情，我們完全不知道！"],["呂次長建德：完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情，但是我剛剛說必須evidence-based，必須以證據為基礎。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來evidence-based！這是教育部105年公告的「學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項」，明定體罰的樣態以及範圍，但是您說伏地挺身不算是體罰、霸凌，而是PK。我想請教一下，教育部明定出來體罰，紅框框裡面所示，伏地挺身是不是不用算在內？以後老師都可以叫學生伏地挺身？PK？"],["呂次長建德：我再還原一下，誠如部長剛剛有說的……"],["陳委員菁徽：只有一次而已，是不是？"],["呂次長建德：2022年12月那一次剛好就有一位新進同仁進來，他在那邊說他有健身，剛好有另外一位替代役也說他會做伏地挺身，大家就起鬨，所以在整個影片過程裡面，委員也可以看到，中間有……"],["陳委員菁徽：大家如果是起鬨、和樂融融，為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來？"],["呂次長建德：我們不好揣測影片傳出來的動機是怎麼樣，但是這個過程裡面，據我們了解，誠如剛剛說的，就是同仁在那邊，大家互相……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以未來衛福部可以訂一個PK表？PK是OK的？"],["呂次長建德：我們剛剛已經說了，我們會提供健康操時間，但是用什麼形式，基本上完全尊重同仁，所以這個就不涉及要不要訂那些。部長也常常跟我們講，我們站在同仁的立場，就是要給同仁一個最有尊嚴的而且最好的職場環境。我也跟委員報告，剛剛劉建國委員質詢，部長也說結束之後、這個事情到一個段落之後，我們會開始啟動，針對主管以上，對於什麼叫霸凌行為，這是第一個，還有管理的藝術、溝通的藝術，我想都很重要。特別是剛剛蘇清泉委員也說，他過去在做PGY，我覺得這個過程裡面，我們也要跟年輕世代共同學習，最重要是我們要給同仁一個最好的、健康的職場環境。"],["陳委員菁徽：我具體建議，因為很多委員問到現在，大家都對這個報告很不能認同，所以你要再生出一個報告的可能性非常高。因為你的報告是違反一般有在上班的人的基本知識，我相信你們如果在院會或跟賴清德總統開會，被這樣對待，應該也不是管理不當，而就是扎扎實實的霸凌。","下一題，對不起！呂次，我想問部長。我看到這個新聞非常難過，因為這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我。我聽完這些故事以後，我覺得蠻痛苦的，因為同樣身為女生，很多醫生希望透過我來發聲，他們看到全國醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長，管理醫事法的是你，沒錯吧？醫療法的主管機關也是你，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長泰源：對，我們衛福部，尤其醫事是主責。"],["陳委員菁徽：性騷擾防治法的主管機關，也是你，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：也是我們衛福部。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，事情發生好多天，衛福部躺平了嗎？衛福部一句話都沒有說，我聽完這些受害者的故事，真的有人聯絡我了，還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人，請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位衛福部部長不用做什麼嗎？你有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的？"],["邱部長泰源：我們就是依規定在辦理，如果醫師有涉及到這些性騷擾相關事件，雇主就會依照性平三法來規定，這個臺大也有在進行，所以好像已經離職了，如果有司法或者是看他的情節，由司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任，若是利用業務機會犯罪行為，且經判刑確定……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，部長，你剛剛講的醫事法裡面，其實有一個不管是公會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動，請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關？你算不算主管機關？還是你覺得你要等公會？"],["邱部長泰源：主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來移送。"],["陳委員菁徽：你會去關心嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：這件事情在各個縣市政府其實都有性平委員會會做調查，所以衛福部這邊，我要講的是醫事管理，我們是後段，調查的結果出來之後，我們會做處理，後續的處理就是以醫師法，剛剛部長在講的，就是說調查出來之後我們會……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思說，醫師法的主管機關，你先交給公會，還有地方的衛生機關？"],["劉司長越萍：沒有，前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會，後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的……"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎？畢竟說不定裡面有些人是你認識的受害者。"],["劉司長越萍：我們目前只有初步的了解，臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查，以上。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為你是性騷擾防治法的主責機關，我也想問，保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心？這整個調查過程有沒有詳實、有沒有疏失，這些人有沒有被接住？因為他們是長期、是長達三、四年以上的……你們要不要做這件事？要不要主動？"],["張司長秀鴛：按照性騷擾防治法，它是採取所謂的告示，也就是被害人要申訴，他申訴……"],["陳委員菁徽：他申訴啦。"],["張司長秀鴛：是，他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查，調查屬實之後，會到審議會去做行政裁處。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我還是希望，因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情，至少免除新的受害者，很多人很擔心啊！也有病人說，原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生對我性騷擾，寫在網路上、寫在Dcard，但是他現在卻還在執行業務，這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢？是不是應該是你的責任呢？你不是管全國醫師的人嗎？你也應該要保護這群受害的女醫師啊！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於是醫界的幹部，我們有責任來關心所有醫師工作的場所是不是安全，然後很愉快……"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你真的要大破大立，很多人期待你可以做一點事情，因為在醫界長期有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係，這些事情可能不只在這個地方發生。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想我們會委由……我會來拜託醫師公會全聯會……"],["陳委員菁徽：大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想我們把事情釐得更清楚以後，一定會有所立場。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們會再繼續追你。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏"},{"start":160.723,"end":178.648,"text":"因為夏威夷他們有一個數據說他們的夏威夷的原住民死於心臟病是比一般高出70%但是他們後來透過他們的一些傳統的方式去做填調發現跳草群舞也許能夠有所幫助果然"},{"start":179.428,"end":194.445,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":194.485,"end":211.313,"text":"健康促進有沒有可能是由文件站以後來做而不是有衛生所都要有所依據有所證據所以我在這邊因為時間的關係我也都不好意思再問了那我只有一個很重要的想像就是人才的招募那我到網站看不到"},{"start":211.753,"end":239.268,"text":"如果有人有心要進來他也不知道要從哪個門進來那現在我再問一下像明年度有一個國際原住民族健康研討會議原建中心有沒有要派人參加但至少我目前知道這一年來已經有很多國際原住民的健康研討會不曉得我們的原建中心有沒有參加過院長還是部長好那我是希望啦這個"},{"start":245.761,"end":257.825,"text":"我們必須要具備文化安全、文化敏感度的人來做這個工作所以我很在意原住民族健康研究中心有沒有至少有可能讓原住民來參與"},{"start":260.093,"end":260.193,"text":"市長!市長!"},{"start":276.29,"end":294.182,"text":"國衛院或招募師、衛福部都會派人過去像我的好朋友田之學醫師他說要出國要去爭取一些主辦權我們也給他最大的鼓勵希望能夠到台灣來辦理第三個就是"},{"start":294.878,"end":294.898,"text":"好。"},{"start":315.929,"end":330.82,"text":"我聽到這樣的一個回覆我覺得甚感安慰我也希望後續能夠確實的去質詢我們很希望真正的讓原件法立法三讀通過之後能看見我們的一個轉變"},{"start":331.901,"end":332.462,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝院長、謝謝主席。謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2216,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（14時25分）謝謝主席體恤，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。因為我上次有關心過，原健法通過後的一週年之前，有成立了原住民族健康研究中心。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原住民族健康研究中心到了今天，剛好又再滿一年，所以我很關心這成立的一年到底做了什麼，我也很關心到底我們應該做哪一些改進。","我從這個地方開始說起，聯合國原住民權利宣言，我們可以看到在保健的部分，它的條文用到的是「原住民族」這個主體、主詞。到了原基法，我們發現關於衛生保健的部分，我們的條文是用「政府」，所以它已經被去集體化，而且它的內容是指那一些什麼福利資源的交通費用等等，這種單點式的補助。還好，我們在前年完成了原住民族健康法，在這個當中也提到要做一個原住民族健康研究中心，我們是希望可以不再用西方醫療的眼光看待原住民族的健康，政策的規劃也不應該用單點式、個人式的補救心態，我們希望對健康的定義可以去殖民化，避免大家把原住民族的健康視為劣等，是有不平等，但是不能視為劣等。我們舉一個例子，在原住民族人口及健康統計年報，竟然有出現什麼酒精相關的躁鬱症、酒精性肝病，在其他的健康年報沒有出現這個，只有在原住民的健康才有，所以我們問了很久，它的依據為何？證據是什麼？沒有，刻板印象，也許是真的，但是就是提不出數據、資料、證據。所以我們希望未來這個原住民族健康中心起碼能夠像毛利人一樣，做一個部落復權，什麼叫部落復權？至少每一個問題都要問，如果是布農族，他會怎麼想？他會怎麼做？如果是泰雅族，他會怎麼想？會怎麼做？我們希望用這樣的一個方式。","我們很希望說我們的健康不要用一般的方式，去醫療化，例如我們看到跳草裙舞，是為什麼？因為夏威夷他們有一個數據，夏威夷的原住民死於心臟病是比一般高出70%，但是他們後來透過一些傳統的方式去做田調，發現跳草裙舞也許能夠有所幫助，果然真的能夠控制正常，而且效果持續更久，所以原健中心有沒有具備能力，讓我們的族人想像「部落的健康」，而不是用診所、用西方醫學來訂定？這個是很重要的。甚至像這種健康促進，有沒有可能是由文健站以後來做，而不是由衛生所？都要有所依據、有所證據，我在這邊因為時間的關係，我也不好意思再問了。","我只有一個很重要的想像，就是人才的招募，我到網站看不到，如果有人有心要進來，他也不知道要從哪個門進來，現在我再問一下，像明年度有一個國際原住民族健康研討會議，原健中心有沒有要派員參加？但至少我目前知道，這一年來已經有很多國際原住民的健康研討會，不曉得原健中心有沒有參加過？院長還是部長來回答？"],["司徒院長惠康：有，我們今年都有派人。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我是希望啦！一定要有一個文化安全，我們已經入法，必須要具備文化安全、文化敏感度的人來做這個工作，所以我很在意原住民族健康研究中心有沒有可能讓原住民來做、來參與？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想委員上次也有提過啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我們在國衛院的團隊討論的時候，也很希望能夠找到，院長也一直在物色相關的人，如果有適當的人請推薦。第二個，相關的會議，我想我們國衛院或者照護司，衛福部都會派人過去，像我的好朋友田知學醫師，他也說要出國去爭取一些主辦權，我們也給他最大的鼓勵，希望能夠到臺灣來辦理。第三個就是健康的影響因素，世界衛生組織早已經揭櫫我們social determinants，就是社會文化相關的跟健康的關係，都是非常重要，也就是說各個文化，我們要站在它的立場上面來思考健康怎麼樣來照顧，這個跟委員的指示是一樣的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，聽到這樣的回復我覺得甚感安慰，我希望後續能夠確實地去執行，我們很希望真正的讓原健法立法三讀通過之後，能看見我們的轉變，也具體的在原住民健康的表現上面能夠看到有所改善，我們有充分的證據相信，如果是原住民有這方面的專業背景來做的話，應該有更多的不一樣。好，謝謝部長、謝謝司長、謝謝院長、更謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員、謝謝部長。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員楊曜、邱鎮軍、涂權吉所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、健保費114年確定不漲，衛福部未來如何精進健全健保財務狀況？","問題：上禮拜（12/10）全民健康保險會宣布，114年度健保總額付費者與醫界代表方案成長率兩案併陳送衛福部核定，推估上述兩案至明年底安全準備金皆未低於水位，明年健保費確定不漲，已將結果呈報衛福部轉呈行政院核定；健保會在新聞稿有提出諸多建議，例如，110至113年度健保財務預估值與實際值差距高達新台幣百億元以上，且有增加趨勢，健保會提醒，考量政府公務預算能否每年挹注健保費用及其額度多寡難以預測，為長期財務穩健著想，應審慎研析財務推估與實際值產生差異原因及探究改善作法，提高未來財務推估準確度、針對短期開源節流措施建議，健保會也提到「活化運用現有資金」，114年預估投資收益率為1.52%，如能活化運用現有資金，將投資報酬率提高至5%，推估1年可增加52億元收入，幾乎等同112年7月調整民眾部分負擔費用所產生的財務效果，請教衛福部，針對健保會上述建議，未來如何精進健全健保財務狀況？又衛福部允諾，114年六月底前要保障健保平均點值一點0.95元，定會增加健保支出，但明年度健保保費費率卻沒有同步調整，民眾擔憂恐影響健保財務健全，為此，本席要求，衛福部應積極爭取113年度稅收超徵款項，用於維持健保基金水位，以利健保永續經營。","二、青少年吸菸逾4成用加味菸，衛福部要如何因應？","問題：國民健康署112年青少年吸菸行為調查結果顯示，根據調查顯示，每10個青少年吸菸者中就有4個使用加味菸，特別是女生的使用比率高於男生，衛福部國健署表示，「菸品禁止使用添加物」草案今年10月完成預告，不排除評估調整禁用添加物等相關規範，盼有效管理加味菸，避免吸引青少年，根據國健署資料，吸菸青少年使用加味菸比例超過4成，若禁止加味煙後，青少年是否就不會再吸煙？或是改為使用其他菸品，甚至使用電子菸！本席認為，國健署除了禁止加味菸外，其他防制青少年吸煙的政策工具為何？青少年菸害防制政策已施行多年，似乎略見成效，但業者行銷手段日益更新，若衛福部只是修改禁用規範，不積極與其他部會合作，恐無法達成政策目的，為此，衛福部要如何持續精進青少年菸害防治對策？","三、如何精進醫學中心評鑑制度，衛福部應提出改革方案。","問題：今年十月底，監察院通過糾正，衛福部未依作業程序辦理112年醫院評鑑，反將台北區醫學中心由8家增加為10家，有違衛福部的醫學中心評定原則，傷害建立不易的醫院評鑑公信力，經查「112年度醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑作業程序」中，醫學中心評定原則：以每二百萬人口數得評定一家醫學中心，估算全國及各一級醫療區域醫學中心家數；如現有醫學中心家數高於前述由人口數所估算之家數者，則以現有醫學中心家數為全國及各一級醫療區域得評定之上限家數，由此可見，衛福部對於醫學中心家數之控管本有機制存在，但衛福部卻已以分數接近為由，增額評定醫學中心，不符合行政作業的一致性原則，此外，本席也多次提出質疑，醫學中心評鑑，若只有升等卻無降等機制，醫學中心要如何配合衛福部推動政策？本席要求，衛福部如無法嚴格實施醫學中心的總額控管，就應停止徒具形式的醫學中心，避免浪費評鑑人力及預算，否則，將來每次醫學中心評鑑結束後，本席會建請監察院進行調查，避免醫學中心評鑑淪為圖利私相授受的機制。"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","一、霸凌案處理問題","部長這次霸凌案檢討報告，你表示是「高規格與用心，尊重調查結果」，但是外界卻認為衛福部是「自我感覺良好」、「背離人民感受」，而調查報告也讓人感覺抓小放大、官官相護、見樹不見林。","比對前陣子內湖發生「母女疑遭詐騙輕生造成兩死」的案子，後來就被發現竟然是先前受理報案的員警在電話中言詞失當，才導致她們輕生。可見得言語霸凌可能造成很嚴重的後果，我們把這兩個案件做對比，就知道衛福部這件整個調查報告偏差非常大，都是從上對下的視野出發，完全沒有站在受霸凌基層同仁期待平復的角度處理，反而讓所有霸凌者都躲在衛福部保護傘下，只受到不成比例的行政處分，就可以完全神隱，置身事外，是不是一定要等到出人命，衛福部的態度才會積極考量如何彌補受害者？","Q1：針對長照司長祝健芳要求同仁和替代役男PK做伏地挺身的影片，在網上和新聞廣為流傳，已經衝擊衛福部形象。請問部長你的政次說這是在PK，司長用同仁休息時間，要同仁當小丑，讓這位同仁感到被羞辱（當事人透過媒體口述），然後你們說祝健芳的行為不符合職場霸凌要件，記過一次留在原單位。請提供衛福部霸凌認定的標準為何？依據是什麼？","Q2：針對祝健芳司長知道自己被投訴之後，就公開發臉書（如圖）說：長照司預算將近900億，所以導致離職率偏高是必然的；又說他是為了大家的健康，所以才規定訓練同仁；最後又說他知道投訴爆料的人是誰，也承認是他不准這個同仁請調，所以這個同仁才請辭離開。請問這篇臉書是否有列入調查？","SHAPE  \\* MERGEFORMAT","Q3：請問衛福部認為同仁們在看完祝健芳司長威脅的臉書文之後，可以在後續接受面對面調查時安心陳述真實的狀況嗎？","Q4：請問人事行政總處，你們報告說有持續辦理辦霸凌相關防治意識宣導及處理知能訓練，霸凌卻到處發生（勞動部、衛福部、文化部等），顯然成效很差，請提供宣導與訓練場次、內容及對象。另外針對勞動部發展署北分署的人事主任，連高達八成的離職率，都不知道要提出預警，還因此被處分調職，可見得人總的人員訓練非常不足，請提供改善檢討報告。","Q5：針對行政院的霸凌案建通報平臺，要求要具名檢舉，請問人事行政總處如何落實保護申訴人個資？另外針對學者建議應該有一個容許匿名的申訴機制，針對同一個人如果被申訴到兩次以上，就要主動調查，這個建議可不可以並行增加設置？","結論：本席認為衛福部應該重新調查，徹底整頓風紀，維護同仁工作尊嚴與士氣，不要草草結案。另外，霸凌一旦成立，當事人還要面對民、刑事及行政責任，希望人事行政總處一地要落實教育，不能再發生霸凌事件。","二、推動帶狀皰疹疫苗補助政策","Q6：針對近來電視及網路媒體頻繁出現帶狀皰疹、RSV病毒廣告，要大家去打疫苗，卻沒有標示宣傳單位，還引用官方數據，誤導民眾以為是官方廣告，要大家去打疫苗，過去衛福部都說這類廣告不合法，請問衛福部現在這類廣告到底合不合法？","Q7：由於國人罹患帶狀皰疹的機率高達32.2%，對50歲以上的高風險族群確實是非常有需要！但自費2劑要1萬8千元，一般民眾根本打不起。現在已有嘉義市、花蓮及苗栗縣等地方率先補助65歲以上低收及中低收入戶等弱勢長者施打帶狀皰疹疫苗。根據衛福部評估，如果中央跟進，這筆經費需求大約在2.38億元至8.3億元之間，請問衛福部可不可以儘快研議由中央推動補助弱勢長者全面施打的可能性？","Q8：本席看到報告裡面提到，今年6月還在發放庫存的1,142萬劑COVID-19快篩試劑；另外立院預算中心也統計，截至113年8月底止各類COVID-19疫苗已銷毀計約1,236萬劑，但疫苗基金今年仍然編列50億的COVID-19疫苗購置費、明年度也有33.98億，這些可能會造成非常多的浪費！應該要確實檢討，核實執行。省下來的經費就可以用來補助65歲以上弱勢長者的帶狀皰疹疫苗。","三、HPV疫苗施打率仍待提升","Q9：最後報告裡面也提到，為了消除子宮頸癌及預防相關癌症的HPV疫苗，110年入學國中女生接種率只有91.9%，而111年入學的第1劑也只有91.6%，請問衛福部為何還有這麼多比率的學生沒有接種？明年起要針對113學年度新入學的男、女國中生全面補助接種，應該要如何加強宣導？"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","2024年12月12日，衛生福利部針對部內8案職場霸凌案件公布其調查報告，僅3位涉案主管職場霸凌案件成立，其餘5案皆不成立，共6案有懲處。惟此份調查報告針對有涉嫌霸凌事實的對象沒有嚴懲，報告呈現更有許多黑幕、不公開資訊等。對此衛福部應重啟調查，嚴辦霸凌加害者，以及還給受害者一個公道。","此外，衛福部針對我國「獨居長者」問題長期漠視。首先，我國政府部門對於「獨居長者」定義不同部門有不同見解，我國戶籍管理主管單位─內政部統計，截至2023年底為止，全國65歲以上人口已超過429萬人，獨居比率為15.6%，推估至少有67萬人；然而，衛福部老人調查報告卻指出，獨老比率為9.11%，人口數僅有39萬人，其中需列冊關懷獨者僅有5萬人。顯示出我國政府兩個部級單位針對「同個群體」的統計，有28萬人的差距，兩部門針對獨居長者在「定義、依準」上應統一，並且進行跨部門、跨資源的統合整理，才能夠完整落實我國政府針對獨老的政策執行，以及明確規劃對獨老的政策。其次，今年7月永和發生一起律師、警察、里長組詐團，聯合盜領獨居老人遺產一案，顯示出我國社會救助法自1980年訂定後，針對「獨居長者」在福利照護及後事處理等部分關懷非常不足，衛福部因訪視員、社工等第一線人力的不足，長期依賴地方政府、里長等基層單位來執行「獨老關懷」等工作，導致類似憾事產生。","對此衛福部應跨部會整合內政部資源統一「獨老定義」，以及放寬獨老定義，只要實質獨居即可視為獨老，並鼓勵加入社區志工行列，應針對年久未修且漠視獨老關懷的「社會救助法」進行修正，以法律來保障這些長期遭受社會漠視的群體。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","下禮拜三、四要審你們的預算，所以大家準備。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝。","散會（14時32分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏"},{"start":290.286,"end":304.838,"text":"長江市市長等這些雖然說他沒有到那個霸凌那個程度但是我們認定他這裡面是有管理事項我是建議你們這樣子好不好因為你們給資料其實我們也沒有很完整資料就看到這個表嘛"},{"start":305.778,"end":327.91,"text":"你這個表其實會讓我們有很多的質疑你這個表沒有寫好你又不講清楚懲處是什麼懲處所以就變成你們衛福部的調查就沒有公信力啊那衛福部調查衛福部就等於部長沒有公信力嗎所以我只是說你們這個表讓我們非常的疑惑那如果既然是那個你就把它寫清楚你那個表設計是不良的"},{"start":328.851,"end":337.757,"text":"好,我們有詳細的調查報告那氣勢沒話以後就要到委員的辦公室親自跟委員報告我們時間有限吼那個我我來"},{"start":339.984,"end":367.356,"text":"對我來直接我們就進入這個加熱菸的議題好了好那個2024年12月16日中午12點左右也就是今天我的助理呢負責這個加熱菸議題的助理呢從台北火車站回到正在回到我們立法院的路上這個好巧不巧呢我們就遇到了這個我們的假署長號"},{"start":369.497,"end":379.99,"text":"我想要請問因為他遇到那個角署長的時候角署長在路上跟我的助理這樣講我很早就想在路上遇到你了"},{"start":381.192,"end":397.73,"text":"他有面帶微笑但是這話聽起來很恐怖欸你們要找助理請問各位在找助理你們想要找美國委員的助理你們會在路上立法院以外的路上說我很早就想遇到你了嗎很想在路上遇到你了嗎你們會嗎會的舉手"},{"start":399.946,"end":400.407,"text":"哇 這話聽起來不寒而栗欸"},{"start":421.088,"end":443.924,"text":"還是...我不知道啊是平常哪位你們...你們哪位政務官或事務官會遇到助理都會在路上這樣子講還是...還是還是他比較希望看到我的時候這句話是想對我講的我很早就想在路上遇到委員了等一下請吳署長去問他一下"},{"start":445.697,"end":460.113,"text":"我再請教一下那個正牌的吳署長,你覺得這句話是什麼意思?我真的沒辦法讓他揣測他的想法,但是我絕對不會這樣做,而且我也覺得蠻恐怖的。"},{"start":461.969,"end":487.787,"text":"對嘛我是說一般正常的人都會覺得不寒而栗啊怎麼會這樣子問呢我只是想要告訴你們我這裡公開講我告訴你們我的加熱菸的這個質詢部分很精彩的部分都是我自己加上去的啊如果很想遇到我我們幾乎最近因為立法院很忙我也幾乎都在研究室再不然我就在委員會"},{"start":489.07,"end":489.13,"text":"稍後。"},{"start":505.652,"end":505.772,"text":"可能3億"},{"start":545.208,"end":564.314,"text":"雖然只是降了3億但是它就是有一個現象意思就是說我加熱煙即便被你們卡住遲遲沒有真正的開放即便修法通過它仍然沒有開放但是奇妙的是止煙的這個煙稅它還是降低的這代表什麼"},{"start":565.54,"end":586.401,"text":"就代表這個就是一個市場的需求他們就還是會去偷抽嘛我上次不是跟你比了嗎上看下看左看右看那個抓不到的百億的稅都在這裡啊所以你們卡那個是沒有意思的你們卡到了只是真的只是政府的稅收你們再怎麼卡都不會增加那個只淹淹稅的稅收啦"},{"start":589.343,"end":591.845,"text":"我覺得每一個議題都是真的議題"},{"start":613.581,"end":617.664,"text":"我每次上來講到加熱因我都點出重要的數據上次是那個百億齁那這一次我點出百分之1.6淹稅下降"},{"start":642.025,"end":666.65,"text":"加熱煙沒有開放但煙稅、紫煙煙稅是下降的這個數據給你們參考它背後的意義表示什麼那就是說現在就是說因為我還想請教就是說煙害這個煙害防治的工作到底是國民健康署的工作還是這個煙害防治基金的這個工作還是它是這個煙害防治策進會的業務因為"},{"start":669.844,"end":697.607,"text":"因為主要是這樣子齁我想要釐清一下這個菸害防治策進會是不是國民健康署的這個上司是嗎是還是不是我想菸害防治法在國民健康署是主責單位那部裡面有一個策進會只是針對說我們就是說我們整個菸害防治的時候有一個報告那部長是個召集人"},{"start":698.874,"end":725.91,"text":"對啦,但是他就是你們的那個整個...應該也不是啦,我是住建議書啦不是嘛,不是你的上司嘛雖然部長是,但是這個測競會不是嘛那所以根據這衛福部你們的這個淹害防治測競會設置要點召集人當然由部長兼任執行長一人是由次長兼任那這個會的這個工作小組就是由國民健康署署長你擔任召集人嘛對不對"},{"start":726.59,"end":749.319,"text":"所以這個測淨會就是國建署的長官那也就是淹害基金會的頂頭上司那現在要審預算那本席就想了解一下就是說有關於這個淹害這個淹害防治測淨會每年有多少預算可以使用那既然你們說都有這個設立工作小組負責推動淹害防治相關工作那就表示說這個單位應該有這個預算來執行相關的工作"},{"start":754.261,"end":764.268,"text":"你們明確說這個單位每年有多少預算,然後錢從哪裡來?你們可以講一下嗎?委員指的是測進會這個單位是吧?它就是一個臨時的組織的一個會議而已。"},{"start":770.643,"end":791.177,"text":"臨時編制的一個會議而已臨時編制的會議那因為這個策經會113年度的會議資料這個單位的經費好像是你們應該是來自這個菸品健康福利捐嘛是來自於這個菸害防治基金啊他沒有特別的預算編耶都沒有對但是他的我是從你們113年度的會議資料那邊看來的喔你們要經費這個菸品的這個健康福利捐"},{"start":799.653,"end":800.795,"text":"會在這個諮詢會裡面做討論報告會在這裡做討論報告"},{"start":811.937,"end":839.497,"text":"陳瑩"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2143,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（14時11分）非常感謝召委的等待，我請部長先上來。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我想要先請教一下，因為10月9日的時候也有跟部長拜託，針對文健站及巷弄長照站的照服員已經5年沒有調薪的問題，希望明年可以一起調整，當時部長也說會好好瞭解跟規劃，我要請教一下長照司，司長沒有來？"],["邱部長泰源：副司長。"],["陳委員瑩：副司長，因為今年加薪4%嘛！明年加薪3%，那衛福部有沒有跟你們說，說你附帶條件必須要增加多少業務，做多少績效之後才可以加薪？這樣子算加薪嗎？加薪應該是維持原來的業務量，然後有增加你的薪水，那叫加薪嘛！但是現在的加薪有沒有說你們要增加多少業務、增加多少績效之後才可以加薪？有沒有這樣的要求跟附帶條件？"],["邱部長泰源：我先報告委員，真的很敬佩委員為文健站大家的權益來爭取，這個部分的確我們在指示之下，我們都有在詳細地研議，研議當中因為牽扯了一些範圍，是不是請長照司跟委員報告？"],["陳委員瑩：簡短快速。"],["吳副司長希文：是，報告委員，這個部分已經有整體在做評估，近期我們會儘快將相關的評估結果再跟委員做一個回復報告。"],["陳委員瑩：但我這邊的重點是，我剛剛講了一個概念，加薪就是原來的業務量，然後增加了薪水叫加薪嘛！如果增加了業務量，然後還要增加績效的話，那叫什麼？這算加薪嗎？有沒有這樣的附帶條件？或者你們現在不清楚？因為我有聽到這樣的消息。"],["邱部長泰源：我們瞭解這個狀況，我們會做整體的評估。"],["陳委員瑩：好，部長，我知道你們要做整體評估，但是我講的是我們對於加薪的定義，我們先在這裡釐清嘛！有必須要增加業務量才可以加薪嗎？如果說本來就是整體提高3%、4%。"],["邱部長泰源：增加業務量，當然理論上是應該要加薪啦！"],["陳委員瑩：還有增加績效。"],["邱部長泰源：如果說大家有一個制度是一直隨著物價、隨著怎麼樣在上漲的話，我想這個也應該都要考慮在內。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我就做這個提醒，有這種附帶條件很奇怪，因為我們這次的加薪是整體的。好，謝謝，長照司請回。","另外，我們來看一個表，因為大家最近在討論霸凌調查這個部分，既有深度又有廣度，雖然我們不知道是誰給部長這樣子一個深度跟廣度的標準，但是我們看一下這個表，這個是你們目前公布，然後我們大家看到這個表，我這樣放眼過去，我唯一沒有辦法理解的是，這個社工司簡任視察職場霸凌成立，記過1次，長照司司長不成立，但他也記過1次，一個成立一個不成立，但是都記過1次，我們會有很多的疑問跑出來嘛！你這個表……"],["邱部長泰源：請我們召集人來說明。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前主要有兩個部分，一個就是成立跟不成立，另外一個就是有關情節輕重，成立的話就要符合一般有關於霸凌的相關定義，人總有給我們一個，其實最主要我們是參考各個法院的判例啦！判例裡面大概有三個最主要的要件，第一個就是你在職場當中用權勢的方式，發生在職場上面；第二個是造成所謂的敵意性環境；第三個就是你對於當事人產生的貶抑，還有整個信心上的毀損，甚至必須要去身心就診的這些。事實上這是一個有關於霸凌的定義，根據這一個，我們訪談了很多很多同仁之後，然後還有相關的事證，我們才做出成立跟不成立，如果說不成立的話，其實這裡面可能也有一些管理失當，比如說像長照司司長等等這些。"],["陳委員瑩：把體罰說成運動的部分呢？"],["呂次長建德：對，雖然他沒有到霸凌那個程度，但是我們認定這裡面是有管理失當。"],["陳委員瑩：我是建議你們這樣子，好不好？因為你們給資料，其實我們也沒有很完整的資料，就是看到這個表嘛！你這個表其實會讓我們有很多的質疑，你這個表沒有寫好，你又不講清楚懲處是什麼懲處，所以就變成你們衛福部的調查沒有公信力啊！那衛福部調查，衛福部就等於部長沒有公信力嘛！我只是說你們這個表讓我們非常的疑惑，你就把它寫清楚，你那個表設計是不良的。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們有詳細的調查報告，去識別化以後就會到委員的辦公室親自跟委員報告。"],["陳委員瑩：時間有限，我們直接進入加熱菸的議題好了。2024年12月16日中午12點左右，也就是今天，我的助理，負責加熱菸議題的助理從臺北火車站回到立法院的路上，好巧不巧就遇到了假署長，那我想要請問，因為他遇到假署長的時候，假署長在路上跟我的助理這樣講：「我很早就想在路上遇到你了」，他有面帶微笑，但是這話聽起來很恐怖耶！你們要找助理，請問各位在找助理，你們想要找每個委員的助理，你們會在立法院以外的路上說我很早就想遇到你了嗎？很想在路上遇到你了嗎？你們會嗎？會的舉手，正常應該是不會吧！助理很忙碌，整天都關在立法院，在研究室裡做研究，怎麼會有人，還是你們的假署長在路上這樣子跟我們的助理講，他又好死不死剛好是負責加熱菸議題的助理，哇！這話聽起來不寒而慄耶！我不知道平常你們哪位政務官或事務官在路上遇到助理都會這樣子講，還是他比較希望看到我的時候，這句話是想對我講的？說我很早就想在路上遇到委員了。"],["邱部長泰源：等一下我請吳署長去問他一下。"],["陳委員瑩：不是啦！我可不可以請教一下正牌的吳署長──你覺得這句話是什麼意思？"],["吳署長昭軍：我真的沒辦法揣測他的想法啦！"],["陳委員瑩：你覺得這樣問……"],["吳署長昭軍：但是我絕對不會這樣做，而且我也覺得滿恐怖的。"],["陳委員瑩：對嘛！我是說一般正常的人都會覺得不寒而慄啊！怎麼會這樣子問呢？我只是想要告訴你們，我在這裡公開講，我告訴你們，我的加熱菸的質詢部分，很精彩的部分都是我自己加上去的，如果很想遇到我，因為立法院很忙，我也幾乎都在研究室，再不然我就在委員會，所以如果想要遇到我的話，在院區都會遇到，那你如果真的遇不到，我們下班之後可能也會在路上遇到，我也歡迎你這樣子跟我講，好不好？","我要點出一點，就是說加熱菸其實有一個好玩的數據，在我們政府所有的稅收裡面，唯一負成長的是什麼？就是這一次紙菸的菸稅，它降低了1.6%，部長你知道降低1.6%是多少錢？"],["邱部長泰源：可能3億。"],["陳委員瑩：3億，242億……"],["邱部長泰源：對，1%。"],["陳委員瑩：3億左右嘛！好，雖然只是降了3億，但是它有一個現象，意思就是說加熱菸即便被你們卡住，遲遲沒有真正的開放，即便修法通過它仍然沒有開放，但是奇妙的是，紙菸的菸稅還是降低的，這代表什麼？代表這是一個市場的需求，他們還是會去偷抽嘛！我上次不是跟你比了嗎？上看下看左看右看，那個抓不到的百億的稅都在這裡啊！所以你們卡那個是沒有意思的，你們卡到的真的只是政府的稅收，你們再怎麼卡都不會增加紙菸菸稅的稅收啦！所以我很不服氣董氏基金會說加熱菸是個假議題，部長，你覺得加熱菸是個假議題嗎？我不知道他們講這個是什麼意思，他上次有講抽紙菸的高中生越來越少了，難道這個才是真的議題嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得每一個議題都是真的議題，都是要好好地來研議。至於加熱菸的審查，其實國健署一直在協助相關的輔導，輔導相關的單位來……"],["陳委員瑩：好，今天我要點出的是，我每次上來講到加熱菸，我都點出重要的數據，上次是那個百億，這一次我點出1.6%菸稅下降，加熱菸沒有開放，但紙菸菸稅是下降的，這個數據給你們參考，它背後的意義表示什麼？","我還想請教，菸害防制的工作到底是國民健康署的工作，還是菸害防制基金的工作？還是它是菸害防制策進會的業務？因為主要是這樣子，我想要釐清一下，菸害防制策進會是不是國民健康署的上司？是嗎？是還是不是？"],["吳署長昭軍：我想菸害防制法在國民健康署是主責單位，那部裡面有一個策進會，就是說我們整個菸害防制的時候有一個報告，部長是召集人。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！但是它就是你們的……"],["吳署長昭軍：應該也不是啦！我是執行秘書。"],["陳委員瑩：也不是嘛！不是你的上司嘛！雖然部長是，但是這個策進會不是，所以根據衛福部菸害防制策進會設置要點，召集人當然由部長兼任，執行長一人是由次長兼任，這個會的工作小組就是由國民健康署署長你擔任召集人，對不對？"],["吳署長昭軍：是。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個策進會就是國健署的長官，也就是菸害基金會的頂頭上司啊！因為現在要審預算，本席想瞭解菸害防制策進會每年有多少預算可以使用，既然你們有設立工作小組負責推動菸害防制相關工作，那就表示這個單位應該有預算來執行相關的工作，你們明確說這個單位每年有多少預算，然後錢從哪裡來，你們可以講一下嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：委員指的是策進會這個單位是吧？"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["吳署長昭軍：它就是一個臨時組織的會議而已，臨時編制的一個會議而已，諮詢會議。"],["陳委員瑩：臨時編制的會議，因為根據策進會113年度的會議資料，這個單位的經費應該是來自菸品健康福利捐嘛！是來自於菸害防制基金啊！"],["吳署長昭軍：它沒有特別的預算編列。"],["陳委員瑩：都沒有？"],["吳署長昭軍：對。"],["陳委員瑩：但是我是從你們113年度的會議資料那邊看來的哦！你們那個經費來自菸品健康福利捐，還有菸害防制基金。"],["吳署長昭軍：我們是把整體我們做的菸害防制相關經費的編列及執行成效的業務報告，會在這個諮詢會議裡面做討論報告。"],["陳委員瑩：會在這裡做討論？"],["吳署長昭軍：對，因為部長是召集人，有相關的委員，必須要跟委員來報告我們今年的執行狀況跟明年度相關經費的編列。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們那個預算統統都沒有？"],["吳署長昭軍：沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：都沒有預算？"],["吳署長昭軍：只有開會而已，一個委員會而已。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你們那個會議資料於會後一併提供給我們做參考。"],["吳署長昭軍：好。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","伍麗華委員要求質詢4分鐘，3分鐘啦！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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查，主計總處跟衛福部會計處根本就是官官相護，會計處長還以面談的名義找同仁聊天，實際上是在抓投訴的人，而不是去處理霸凌同仁的某某科長。我收到的這個陳情案是有具名的，只是如果你們私底下找我，我會給你們。他還說：是不是要等到我在衛福部大樓6樓會計處用生命做最沉重的控訴才要處理？衛福部會計處至今仍沒有任何作為，科長沒有做出任何實質處分，處長只是想著升官，所以能拖就拖，等輿論過了，再輪調到其他的部會，這樣就不用負督導不周的責任，然後不願意傾聽同仁說的，只願意相信鱷魚的眼淚，這樣的處理態度，這就是造成某某科長一而再、再而三霸凌同仁不收斂的溫床，會計處的長官就是共犯，希望委員能救救我們，澈底制止這種行為。我的意思就是說，我唸的這一篇，我看到以後非常驚訝，我想怎麼到了這個時代還要透過這樣的方式來尋求協助？這是我的email，他還可以找到我的email，他也有具名，所以會後我可以把資料給你。"],["邱部長泰源：可不可以容會計處說明一下？"],["盧委員縣一：好。"],["張處長育珍：跟委員報告，關於這個同仁的投訴，其實我們之前已經收過非常多的投訴，我們事實上也有特別去處理，我們訪談同仁的目的其實不是在抓投訴者，而是在瞭解是不是有霸凌的事實，在這樣子的情況之下，我們都會再告訴同仁說，同仁如果確實認為這個科長有霸凌的事實，請他循正式的管道，讓我們去立案調查。到目前為止，因為投訴的狀況非常多，我們為了要方便部裡面可以去立案調查，還有確保目前在職的同仁願意坦誠地陳述他是不是真的有遭到霸凌，所以我們現在已經先把這位科長調離現職，已經做了這樣子的處置。"],["盧委員縣一：這位是張育珍處長嗎？"],["張處長育珍：是。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。因為我看到這8個立案調查的結果裡面沒有會計處，所以我今天會特別提出來，是這個原因。"],["張處長育珍：主要就是因為這一份是匿名的投訴案件。還有，事實上我們也針對這個科長做了一些必要的調整跟處理。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。","第二個，我昨天在金門成立服務處，我到金門其實最直接相關的當然就是金門醫院的問題，所以昨天我到金門，有人就直接向我陳請，我稍微唸一下陳情書，陳情人說：氣到不想隱藏了，對！就是金門醫院，醫生們跟長官們動動腦袋想一想，一家地區醫院一次有將近20位護理師要離職，到底是為什麼？是因為醫師們不斷壓榨、霸凌護理師。對，就是霸凌。也就是說，他們認為他們被醫院霸凌，然後造成一次離職20位護理師，所以我希望衛福部能夠做一個調查。還有壓榨他們的留任獎金，還有如果工作時間不超過30分鐘不算加班，這樣的加班情況是不是就是他們所謂的不平？請衛福部立案調查。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定立案調查。請執行長報告一下。"],["林執行長慶豐：跟委員報告，金門醫院歷年護理人員離職，在民國111年大概18個，民國113年就是剛剛提到的有13個，其實離職率這幾年都差不多，都小於1%，跟委員特別報告一下，離職率在我們照護司的平台裡面也都有明確的數據，所以沒有像委員提到的20位，這是第一個要特別說明的。","第二個，因為金門醫院是在離島偏鄉的醫院，所以我們有一個臺北榮總的IDS計畫，有醫師過去，那當然這個部分的一段期間可能是兩個月或是半年，所以在這個部分，我們責成金門醫院，要給支援的醫師更多的教育，我們也要請他們好好地善待護理人員，這個部分醫院已經有處理，有成立一個機制，就是在醫師、護理、專科醫師和專科護理師的工作協調，對工作的界定和需要有一個釐清。","有關獎勵金或留任獎金，據我們瞭解，其實金門醫院的獎勵金沒有比過去少，是有增加，留任獎金是縣府從離島建設基金支用，過去都是由金門縣府補助，但是離島基金因為金酒的關係比較少，所以今年由縣府從離島建設基金裡補助給金門醫院的部分減少，大概是打八折，所以他們的感受覺得是有少，所以這個部分我們還要再跟縣府溝通一下。"],["盧委員縣一：執行長，就根據他們的離職率、他們的留任獎金和他們的加班部分做回應，好不好？"],["林執行長慶豐：好。"],["盧委員縣一：下次給我書面的說明。"],["林執行長慶豐：好。"],["盧委員縣一：最後一個就是針對屏東榮民醫院被霸凌的護理師，他因為是跨性別護理師，疑似遭到霸凌然後自殘，現在還在加護病房，後續的處理是怎麼樣？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：目前已經有立案調查，正在調查中。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我希望如果有調查結果，也跟本席報告。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員、謝謝部長。","吳春城、吳春城、吳春城委員不在。","張啓楷、張啓楷、張啓楷委員不在。","賴士葆、賴士葆、賴士葆委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","邱鎮軍改書面質詢。","涂權吉也改書面質詢。","伍麗華、伍麗華、伍麗華委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","陳瑩。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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night時間點在哪裡讓人家有所準備跟依歸可就可不可就不可你會盡快盡快盡快快快快快快到什麼時候"},{"start":67.745,"end":73.23,"text":"好。我想...最重要的考慮點是怎麼樣?我想一定有..."},{"start":82.299,"end":95.107,"text":"或不加加加幾趴沒有這樣子只告訴我們充分的給你們研議那什麼時候可以告訴人家嗎現在是12月底中啊對啊現在已經12月中了嘛對啊12月底好了市長在對不對你要告訴人家嘛這樣大概這樣子沒有答案不行啊"},{"start":102.512,"end":103.632,"text":"多久時間?請告訴我們時間。剛剛部長說要回答12月底。沒關係,請你告訴我們時間。一個快快快一個趕快,你加一個趕。"},{"start":123.519,"end":135.664,"text":"那到底你告訴我們時間沒關係你告訴我時間這個真的是牽一髮動全身喔牽一髮動全身你告訴我時間啦沒關係啦謹慎來衡量啦謹慎來衡量我請問我們什麼時候可以得到答案報告委員我們會謹慎來衡量啊本來是快快快趕快現在謹慎很大沒關係你應該要有來部長你請回答部長"},{"start":151.26,"end":173.981,"text":"我們大家理性討論但是你還要一個時間因為一再講再講完全沒有一個時間點我們如果只要求時間點都要求都聽不到那我們接下來怎麼咨詢沒關係我們那個可以或不可以啊不可以是這個原因對啊對啊你有當過民意代表你就知道背景的處處我想我們在12月底來"},{"start":174.602,"end":175.603,"text":"接下來部長我要跟你討論霸凌的事情事主袁紹"},{"start":195.768,"end":214.484,"text":"那你這次的調查報告呢就好像繼續放火你的八件裡頭只有三件成立而且都是非主管的在處分那麼司長級的都輕輕放過在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教是不是在重點霸凌這個霸凌文化基層的公務人員要繼續來煎熬"},{"start":223.55,"end":228.775,"text":"我相信你絕對沒有那個心所以本席要求你公佈調查報告因為不斷的資訊在你的報告當中根本是沒有的所以你要重啟調查一一來說明否則我看社會大眾跟國會都沒有辦法接受欸"},{"start":241.738,"end":244.68,"text":"部長您的看法呢?本期贊同!贊同這個方向!你們剛剛有做決議!那本期要了解!"},{"start":265.996,"end":267.199,"text":"那我就到委員報告室報告我們一定要好好的保護需要被保護的人嘛當然當然部長"},{"start":274.879,"end":301.251,"text":"這個錄音帶都已經被揭露了我相信你聽過了你們必須要先自殺你等人家來他殺你要先自殺一定要先表示你的誠意還有一個要自殺還要先表示誠意的這些調查的結果是說什麼不當的比喻傷不勾成霸凌這種話都講得出來部長"},{"start":303.823,"end":303.963,"text":"請做說明。"},{"start":320.458,"end":346.548,"text":"嗯,我想這個用詞是的確非常不適當那但是據我據了解齁那個當時是在講一個案件如果你不好好的自己意思說自己把它弄好你就是等別人來去報告的時候會被別人來修理嘛所以它的用詞是比較極端你認為是極端的用詞但是絕對怎麼不可長官不可能叫人家去自殺他殺這件事情所以你的錄音帶"},{"start":347.948,"end":352.692,"text":"他的影音呈現是如此叫人家自殺還要先表示誠意這是哪門子的說法"},{"start":357.139,"end":378.13,"text":"所以資訊越來越多,部長,資訊越來越多,你應該要把這個調查,好好的調查清楚。本期剛剛在聽到你的答詢當中,你站起來說,在處理臨時提案的時候,你站起來說,該調查的都要調查,要調查的水落石出,這是你說的嘛,對不對?"},{"start":379.951,"end":404.601,"text":"一定要好好查清楚,勿縱勿枉一定要查清楚接下來本席要跟你討論你們的報告內容說這個霸凌申訴人必須要具名以言辭或書面提出行政院的霸凌平台也是這麼說也要具名所以本席要說要具名第一個要麼表示我們的行政能力盲目無能"},{"start":405.595,"end":405.635,"text":"發言委員：楊瓊瓔"},{"start":428.359,"end":436.908,"text":"也要調查嗎?所以不需要具名嗎?是不是?對啊,我們這8案應該大部分都沒有具名請問,你們不需要具名嗎?是不是?不需要具名的我們現在也都納入調查所以也是要具名?不用啊到底要不要具名?匿名的我們也調查那要不要具名?"},{"start":449.625,"end":450.105,"text":"所以本席要告訴你"},{"start":473.497,"end":487.838,"text":"這一次霸凌案之所以能夠在網路上面廣泛的討論就是因為他有匿名性才能夠被廣泛的討論那媒體跟調查單位他可以有線索去查"},{"start":488.659,"end":508.726,"text":"甚至也有人發文啊他也有人發文說明確的說他在公務體系但是如果讓我具名我根本不敢出面舉證或者陳情對不對你也知道嘛你當上民意代表你也知道啊行政院也有說只要有媒體有報導或者信息相關信息我們都是要查要處理的"},{"start":509.286,"end":526.017,"text":"所以我們一個答案現在行政院的霸凌平台是要拒名我也告訴他們你們要改第二個我們現在可以確認你為何不雖然說希望拒名但是不拒名的、匿名的你們也會有舉證的對當然就是說你們這樣子的情況也要調查對不對這個要理清楚喔那你要去思考"},{"start":538.204,"end":565.899,"text":"到現在你婉轉的說如果是沒有匿名的但是有實際這個實際狀況者可尋者那你們都會調查那你要去考慮也要告訴行政院我衛福部都可以這麼做了幹嘛你行政院也要匿名啊行政院長有這樣指示啊行政院長有這樣指示可是他的霸凌平台是要具名那你要告訴他那個霸凌平台的具名要拿掉你跟他很好你告訴他"},{"start":567.881,"end":588.612,"text":"我想這個...對不對?因為講的跟做的文字是一樣啊!有是依法辦理以外我們會強化它的一個...那你要告訴行政院長啊,你跟他很好我知道你要告訴他,我們都可以匿名都可以接受,如果有實證都可以接受你要告訴他,我們行政院做的一套跟你做的又不一樣啊!"},{"start":589.861,"end":597.868,"text":"但是我們現部衛福部是只要有施政的有施政不需要具名就可以查我們確認這一點非常好因為我也可以理解公務單位是怕說爛樹爛茶打擊到無辜這個本性也可以了解但是我們有政府的目的不就是為了可以查明真相嗎 對不對"},{"start":618.126,"end":631.722,"text":"所以在這種情況之下需要被保護的人對那需要被保護的人一定要保護他們對不對這一定要的所以我本期要在這裡跟你說明現在你們認為要不要去修法要不要去修法"},{"start":635.373,"end":641.584,"text":"要不要去修法因為目前霸凌的這個案子還沒有很明確的法所以經過了這麼痛苦的個案經過了這麼痛苦的個案我們應該可以專案去研擬"},{"start":650.519,"end":665.719,"text":"去組一個team去研擬到底這個認定是怎麼樣認定本市也不希望社會大眾一直質疑我們政府本市更不希望我們所有的公務人員有被霸凌而無處沒有申訴的管道"},{"start":666.872,"end":681.105,"text":"對不對?你一直點頭你絕對認同本席的說法。當然當然。 對不對?所以呢本席也希望也就是在這樣的一個情況之下我們是不是應該要應該要去來做修訂法律。請教。剛剛為"},{"start":683.812,"end":699.547,"text":"對,剛剛委員所提的這樣的一個我們經過了經歷了這樣的慘痛的教訓對啊我們總要讓職場更好跟社會更好這個是我們會在權者方面來跟權者的機關你是組一個team嗎好好的去演繹讓大家可以放心來討論嘛也就是修訂那個法律可以讓所有的工作"},{"start":706.294,"end":727.067,"text":"有權者,所以讓大家都能夠,讓工作者大家都能夠放心啊。謝謝,這是我們一起努力的目標。最少他是一個合組作用嘛,對不對?一定要往這個方向改善。好,所以就組一個team好好的去研擬,好不好?好,我們本身也會來衛福部那一面也會來精進。對。也會跟各個牽扯單位大家來互相研議。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1987,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時48分）謝謝英明的召集人，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，延續剛剛的議題，文化健康站的照服員和廚工，其實這個你應該可以很放心地來答應，因為尤其我們在城市中的城市，還是有很多人需要照顧，所以如果說依照這個比例3%，在我們整個通膨來講，這個是完全必須的，所以你剛剛還是沒有辦法很直接地回答，你說會儘快、儘快、儘快，那你總是要說一個deadline的時間點在哪裡，讓人家有所準備跟依歸，可就可，不可就不可，你說儘快、儘快、儘快，快、快、快，快到什麼時候？多久時間？告訴人家嘛，對不對？都要過年了。"],["邱部長泰源：最重要的考慮點是怎麼樣，我想一定有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管考慮怎麼樣，你總是有一個時間點可以應許給人家，現在沒有要求你說加或不加，加的話要加多少百分比，沒有這樣子，只告訴我們要充分地讓你們研議，什麼時候可以告訴人家？"],["邱部長泰源：現在已經是12月中，12月底好了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要告訴人家嘛！不然大家這樣子，沒有答案不行啊。多久時間？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對這個事情的關心。不過因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我們時間。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為現在真的像部長剛剛說的，是牽一髮動全身……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛部長回答說12月底，那……"],["呂次長建德：這個要做總體的衡平性考量，我們會趕快來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，沒關係，請你告訴我們時間。"],["呂次長建德：我們會趕快來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個快、快、快，你加一個「趕」，那到底……"],["呂次長建德：其實這個裡面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我們時間，沒關係，你告訴我時間。"],["呂次長建德：這個真的是牽一髮動全身。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我時間嘛。"],["呂次長建德：這個很多要很謹慎來衡量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謹慎來衡量，我請問，我們什麼時候可以得到答案？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們會謹慎來衡量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本來是快、快、快，趕快，現在變成要謹慎。沒關係，你應該要有……"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為這個牽涉到很多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你請回答。部長，我們大家理性討論，但是你還要有一個時間，因為一直在講，完全沒有一個時間點，我們如果只要求時間點都聽不到，那我們接下來要怎麼執行？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們那個……可以或不可以，不可以就去找原因。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊、對啊。你有當過民意代表，你就知道百姓的需求。"],["邱部長泰源：委員的希望是這樣子，我想我們在12月底來把這個答案先呈現。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["邱部長泰源：後續要努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝部長。12月底我們等著看、等著聽，文化健康站照服員及廚工是不是要加薪，給我們一個答案、方向，要加或者是不加，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝部長。","接下來，部長，我要跟你討論霸凌的事情四處延燒，你這一次的調查報告，就好像繼續放火，8件裡頭只有3件成立，而且都是非主管的在處分，司長級的都輕輕放過，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，是不是在縱容霸凌文化？是不是要讓基層的公務人員繼續煎熬？我相信你絕對沒有那個心，所以本席要求你公布調查報告，因為資訊在你的報告當中根本是沒有的，所以你要重啟調查，一一來說明，否則我看社會大眾跟國會都沒有辦法接受。部長，你的看法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，剛剛已經有決議了，我們會去識別化以後，到各個委員的辦公室去報告，因為這個牽涉到裡面有很多人被訪談……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席贊同這個方向，你們剛剛有作決議，那本席要瞭解……"],["邱部長泰源：衛環的委員及想要瞭解的委員，我們會儘速去報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，本席要瞭解。"],["邱部長泰源：那我就到委員辦公室報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一定要好好地保護需要被保護的人嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：一定、一定。當然、當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，錄音帶都已經被揭露了，我相信你聽過了，內容說：你們必須要先自殺，你等人家來他殺，你要先自殺啊，你一定要先表示你的誠意啊。還有一個說要自殺還要先表示誠意的？這一些調查的結果是說什麼？「不當的比喻，尚不構成霸凌」，這種話都講得出來，部長，沒有辦法想像我們的基層員工、基層人員身心靈多麼煎熬，如果是你的家人或你的小孩碰到這樣的主管，你會認為他不是霸凌嗎？請做說明。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個用詞的確非常不適當，但是據瞭解，當時是在講一個案件，意思是說如果你自己不把它弄好，就是等別人去報告的時候，會被別人修理。所以他的用詞是比較極端，但是絕對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認為是極端的用詞？"],["邱部長泰源：長官不可能叫人家去自殺、他殺。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：影音呈現是如此，叫人家自殺，還要先表示誠意，這是哪門子的說法？"],["邱部長泰源：據我瞭解，所謂的自殺，就是自我要把事情弄清楚……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以資訊越來越多，部長，資訊越來越多，你應該要把這個好好地調查清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個我們非常……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席剛剛聽到你在答詢當中站起來說，在處理臨時提案的時候你站起來說，該調查的都要調查，要調查得水落石出，就是你說的嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然，一定要調查得非常清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以一定要好好查清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：毋枉毋縱。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：毋枉毋縱，一定要查清楚。","接下來，本席要跟你討論，你們的報告內容說，霸凌申訴人必須要具名，以言詞或書面提出，行政院的霸凌平台也是這麼說，也說要具名。所以本席要說，要具名，第一個，表示我們的行政能力顢頇無能，連調查的能力都沒有。第二個，就是要準備秋後算帳，你叫人具名，會引發寒蟬效應。這樣的決策是誰決定的？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，沒有、沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：誰決定的？"],["邱部長泰源：後面有補充，匿名者只要是能夠舉出事證跟他針對哪一個人，我們就是一樣去調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也要調查嘛，所以不需要具名，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：我們這8案應該大部分都沒有具名。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問，你們不需要具名，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：不需要具名的，我們現在也都納入調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以也是要具名？"],["邱部長泰源：不用啊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到底要不要具名？"],["邱部長泰源：匿名的我們也調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那要不要具名？"],["邱部長泰源：匿名的就是他就沒有具名。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，匿名的也調查……"],["邱部長泰源：當然最好是具名。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最好是具名，所以就是要具名啊！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，不具名……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要具名，誰敢啊？"],["邱部長泰源：不具名我們也調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不具名也調查？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是你們也希望他們具名，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：這是一般的規定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為行政院的霸凌平台也就是要讓人家具名，所以本席要告訴你，這一次霸凌案之所以能夠在網路上面廣泛地討論，就是因為有匿名性，才能夠被廣泛地討論，讓媒體跟調查單位可以有線索去查，甚至也有人發文，明確地說他在公務體系，但是如果讓他具名，他根本不敢出面舉證或陳情，對不對？你也知道嘛，你當過民意代表，你也知道啊！"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，所以行政院也有說，只要有媒體報導或有訊息，有相關訊息我們都是要查、要處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們有一個答案，現在行政院的霸凌平台是要具名，我也告訴他們要改。第二個，我們現在可以確認，衛福部雖然說希望具名，但是不具名的、匿名的，有舉證的，你們……"],["邱部長泰源：對，有舉證的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然，就是這樣子的情況，你們也要調查，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個要釐清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：沒錯，就是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要去思考，到現在，你婉轉地說，如果是匿名的，但是有實際狀況可循者，你們都會調查，那你要去考慮，也要告訴行政院，衛福部都可以這麼做了，行政院也要可以匿名啊！"],["邱部長泰源：行政院長有這樣指示。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：行政院長有這樣指示，可是霸凌平台是要具名。"],["邱部長泰源：那霸凌平台……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要告訴他，那個霸凌平台的具名規定要拿掉，你跟他很好，你告訴他，對不對？因為講的跟做的文字是要啊！"],["邱部長泰源：有些依法辦理以外，我們會強化它的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要告訴行政院長，你跟他很好，我知道，你要告訴他，衛福部都可以接受匿名，如果有實證，都可以接受，你要告訴他，不要讓行政院做的一套跟你做的又不一樣，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：但是我們衛福部現在是只要有實證，有實證的我們就辦理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有實證的，不需要具名就可以查，我們確認這一點，非常好，因為我也可以理解，公務單位是怕有濫訴、濫查，怕打擊到無辜，這個本席也可以了解。"],["邱部長泰源：因為一查下去，說實在的，將影響公務的運轉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，但是我們有政府的目的，不就是為了可以查明真相嗎？對不對？所以在這樣的情況之下，保護需要被保護的人。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有各種技術來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，對需要被保護的人，一定要保護，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：一定要、一定要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一定要的。所以本席要在這裡跟你說明，現在你們認為要不要去修法？因為目前霸凌的這個案子還沒有很明確的法，所以經過了這麼痛苦的個案，我們應該可以專案去研擬，組一個team，去研擬到底是怎麼樣認定。本席也不希望社會大眾一直質疑我們政府，本席更不希望我們所有的公務人員有被霸凌而無處申訴，沒有申訴的管道，對不對？你一直點頭，你絕對認同本席的說法，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席也希望，在這樣的情況之下，我們是不是應該要去修訂法律？請教。"],["邱部長泰源：對，剛剛委員所提的建議，我們經歷了這樣慘痛的教訓，我們要思考怎麼樣讓職場跟社會更好，我們跟權責機關……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要組一個team，好好地研擬讓大家可以放心。"],["邱部長泰源：來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來討論，也就是修訂法律，可以讓所有的……"],["邱部長泰源：修訂法律，就是有權責的機關……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有權責，所以讓工作者大家都能夠放心。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，這是我們一起努力的目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：至少有一個嚇阻的作用嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：一定要往這個方向來改善。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：認同這個方向吧？"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Kacaw委員：（13時39分）主席，有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長辛苦了。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：衛福部是要對人民、弱勢者、個人、兒少、家庭服務，你們有保護司、照顧司、心理健康司、社工司，然後發生這樣的一個霸凌的事情，真的是……所以，次長，衛福部的標準要比一般的部會更強化，那個標準要更嚴謹、更嚴格。衛福部的工作人員、員工，除了公務員的部分之外，我們看，超過八成的社工遇到職場霸凌、言語霸凌，你想想看，受到言語、職位、社會霸凌的比例這麼高，那我們怎麼能期待、怎麼能夠安心讓你們整個社工體系照顧個人、家庭、兒少、老人等各方面，尤其是心靈需要被協助的人？所以真的是要好好地處理，除了衛福部的公務人員受到職場霸凌這件事絕對要避免之外，社工他們是第一線的人，所以這部分更是需要去加強。部長及衛福部各位長官，尤其是社工司司長，這個部分確實是一個需要加強的地方，更是第一線直接對人民影響的部分，所以我針對這個部分來做這樣的勉勵。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我們看文健站，現在原住民的文健站已經有519站，原鄉425站、都會區94站，這些文健站的經費都是由長照基金來支應，以原鄉部落來講，我們的部落總共有740個，原鄉的文健站有425個，還差很多，還要增加很多文健站。就都會區而言，都會區現在有94站，我們原住民的人口已經有一半以上在都會區，50.96%在都會區居住，所以原住民族的文化健康站需要去加強，要加強的方式很簡單，就是要增加經費給原民會，從長照基金去支出。我們看長照基金114年度的預算，跟113年度的預算相比，長照基金在114年度增加了50億8,570萬7,000元，而原住民的文化健康站的預算只增加1億，這個比例差距很高，預算增加了五十億八千多萬，然後原住民的文健站預算在長照基金裡面只增加一億，所以這個部分可以從其他的經費……"],["邱部長泰源：可不可以請長照司跟您報告一下？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。請。"],["吳副司長希文：是，主席跟委員好。有關於文化健康站的布建，的確我們也非常重視跟支持，長照基金也都會挹注相關的經費，現在大概都是原民會提送相關的一些經費需求跟一些計畫來部裡面，我們會做經費相關的核撥，所以後續如果還是有這樣的需求……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，事實上原民會每一次提報的情形是這樣，你給我多少錢，我就只能做這麼多，事實上申請文健站的團體很多，但是因為你只給他這麼多的錢，所以他就只核這麼多，是這樣。所以剛才副司長提到原民會是報得少了是不是？你的意思是不是這樣？"],["吳副司長希文：應該是說，原民會還是會去規劃要在哪一些地方做文健站的布建，然後來提相關的計畫。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，那你們可以請原民會說需求多少，我可以增加這樣的經費，因為你們現在預算給他們這麼多，就已經匡在那邊了，所以他們就只做這麼多。因此這個部分，希望……"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分我們去瞭解一下，不要先匡著。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["邱部長泰源：那就無法照顧到整個需求，應該是以需求為導向。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分要請衛福部多多協助。"],["邱部長泰源：來溝通一下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。另外，本席在9月就發文，提到文化健康站的照服員及廚工的薪資要比照軍公教調薪3%，馬上1月就要到了，到底要不要加薪？比照軍公教，可以嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有在處理。長照司講一下。"],["吳副司長希文：針對這個部分的調薪，現在我們部裡面也有在做一些討論、研議，我們會儘快回復。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：太久了吧！你們已經研議最起碼兩、三個月了，一直說研議中、研議中，一開始我收到你們回復說在簽核中，還簽那麼久，莫非部長或次長一直壓著？"],["吳副司長希文：報告委員，因為這個部分涉及到一些因素，我們也會整體來看會不會影響到其他據點相關民間單位聘用員工的薪資，我們整體去考量……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以不是簽核中嘛，所以你們還在……"],["吳副司長希文：其實我們……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還在承辦人的手上是不是？"],["吳副司長希文：沒有，沒有，我們其實已經整體做過一些相關評估，現在也是在部裡面做相關的程序，去做討論了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以什麼時候會有結果？無法回答？"],["吳副司長希文：我們儘快。"],["邱部長泰源：因為牽一髮動全身，就是擔心這樣子，不然的話，應該要調就要調，但是調的話，是不是其他的單位也會有相同的效應，可能他們在評估。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然都要。"],["邱部長泰源：都要的話，當然就會有預算方面……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：預算沒問題，這一次增加五十億多，好不好？明年度增加了五十億多的長照基金。"],["邱部長泰源：我想文化健康站照服員和廚工應該是我們要關心的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，要答復，多久？"],["邱部長泰源：好，一定儘快、一定儘快，回去馬上看能做到什麼程度，再跟委員報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員，我叫他要幾億要喊出來，他不敢喊。謝謝部長。","來，請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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一個行政院院長做這種政治性的發言現行法規是一個禮拜嗎?現行法規如果不是一個禮拜那我把他當成是行政院院長對於行政院所屬機關內部的自我強化要求嗎?對啊阿現在這個內部的強化自我要求有做到嗎?"},{"start":202.113,"end":220.059,"text":"我公開問這個問題就好了啦是不是有做到大家去對時間嘛左榮泰講的話到底算不算話更可笑的是什麼結果你們結果出來了為什麼今天這麼多委員關心社會滑爛啦有關的有關職的主管的通通不成立沒有主管職的通通都成立"},{"start":231.357,"end":255.415,"text":"抓小放大部長這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎我們都是秉公處理、依法辦理沒有關係啦不要講官話我就直接請教你嘛你個人作為衛福部的部長這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎我們尊重調查小組尤其我們叫做外部專業調查委員他們的"},{"start":259.299,"end":271.787,"text":"當初前勞動部部長何佩珊也是這樣講的嘛作為一個部長要有擔當啊這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎那你就勇敢的拍胸脯說我非常滿意嘛"},{"start":274.107,"end":292.82,"text":"我想我那個尊重就是尊重調查委員的一個意見如果說有新的事證或者是我們再繼續來我具體請教啊上班時間要員工深蹲福利挺身這個是OK的嗎來請教部長"},{"start":293.851,"end":305.946,"text":"好 這個我回答好了 這個這件事情是發生在2022年12月的時候因為這個新進的同仁只有一次是不是他也只有一次其他都沒有了"},{"start":307.296,"end":330.587,"text":"只有這一次所以現在建築...等一下等一下等一下我們一樣一樣來嘛這位司長逼員工深蹲福利挺身依照你們目前調查的結果在他擔任司長的期間當中只有一次沒有別次了是不是這樣是嗎調查的結果是這樣子這樣子調查的結果部長你認可嗎"},{"start":335.211,"end":343.573,"text":"為什麼我今天問師長為什麼沒有來自己的事情自己不敢面對喔如果調查這麼嚴謹這麼坦蕩蕩連來國會接受被選的勇氣都沒有還是你們整個衛福部幫他擋在前面只有一次只有一次所以呢 來來來"},{"start":362.369,"end":367.163,"text":"其他在媒體上面建築的我現在直接看後面啦齁"},{"start":371.94,"end":398.083,"text":"有深蹲執行官深蹲聽訊深蹲姿勢不對聽短講聽到雙頭雙腿發抖會被糾正這全部都是不實爆料是嗎如果只有一次的話啦如果你們的調查結果是真的啊我只有一個結論啊現在建築跟外界投訴爆料的這些內容全部虛偽不實這是調查小組的結論嗎"},{"start":402.401,"end":416.829,"text":"非常感謝黃國昌委員對本案的一個關心跟垂詢。客氣的話不用講,直接回答問題就好了啦。就是有關福利挺身就是一次。所以這些爆料全部都不止,福利挺身一次深蹲幾次?深蹲的話是從2022年,從這個2024年大約五月的時候開始。總共有幾次?"},{"start":425.053,"end":428.134,"text":"所以用鼓勵的方式同仁都很高興樂於接受鼓勵是這樣嗎十三位可以理解嗎"},{"start":452.498,"end":471.354,"text":"所以我跟委員報告就是所以現在建出在報章媒體上面的爆料全部都是只有一個人抱怨其他的人都覺得很OK是這樣嗎對所以我們也因為這樣老實說我也覺得就是說這個市長這樣是整個這個管理上面現在把規矩講清楚就好了啦對沒錯把規矩講清楚就好了啦沒錯"},{"start":472.354,"end":481.92,"text":"長官可以要求暑假深蹲福利挺身嗎?可以還是不可以?絕對不可以。絕對不可以嘛。來出來。來來來來來來。我們一樣一樣講清楚啊。那你們在裡面的報告講什麼?講說啊是用鼓勵的方式一起運動。調查小組認定沒有強迫。這個結論部長你滿意嗎?包委員。對不起我請問部長。部長這個結論你滿意嗎?"},{"start":502.944,"end":505.325,"text":"我覺得如果有運動時間應該要尊重尊重每一個同仁他們自有的一個活動方式"},{"start":532.938,"end":556.416,"text":"所以如果有任何的強迫去做特定的或者太超過阿你覺得司長都這樣下令了同仁有沒有覺得被強迫還有深蹲執行官喔部長我跟您交換一個意見我們將心比心今天我們立委監督行政部門幫我們基層的公務員發聲"},{"start":558.919,"end":587.324,"text":"我們將心比心我今天如果在質詢的時候我請你深蹲我請你福利挺身你一定會覺得這個立委一點道理都沒有濫用職權憑什麼要你深蹲憑什麼要你福利挺身我們將心比心我相信這樣子講部長應該可以認同嘛當然當然當然嘛那每一個人都是一樣嘛衛福部有司長官威很大"},{"start":588.92,"end":612.13,"text":"還有深蹲執行官喔結果大家為什麼對你們衛福部的調查報告意見這麼強烈你看嘛第一個調查報告全文不敢提供給立法院說是要保護同仁你們在討論臨時提案的時候我人雖然沒在現場我都透過我們院內的視訊"},{"start":614.349,"end":627.045,"text":"在看你們討論其中的理由是什麼啊怕同人有心理壓力怕暗圖寄索去找到那個同人那我現在就有個問題啊找到那個同人然後呢他會被誰壓迫"},{"start":628.851,"end":652.161,"text":"他會被誰秋後算帳?如果按照你們今天調查報告的結論這些主管職每一個人繼續當主管都沒有問題那代表了什麼?代表你們今天部長幫這些主管背書嘛他們繼續當主管絕對不會有秋後算帳絕對不會繼續霸凌同仁"},{"start":654.178,"end":664.384,"text":"你們調查報告的結論跟整個台灣社會講的就是這件事嘛他們可以繼續當主管我部長背書OK沒有問題啊如果是這樣子的話怎麼會有人擔心還會會被缺貨算帳連你們自己都沒信心了嘛所以才不敢公布調查報告嘛部長我有沒有講錯"},{"start":679.025,"end":704.419,"text":"報告委員我想我們去識別化以後今天的結論我們會去每一個未還的委員那非未還的委員呢如果有要求我們也會去報告好那我現在要求來報告可以嗎沒問題順便講清楚啊沒問題你們的標準怎麼跟勞動部差這麼多啊勞動部的謝宜龍是叫大家跑步啊勞動部的調查報告啊認為不可以這樣做啊沒有擦肢抹粉啊"},{"start":708.491,"end":714.293,"text":"結果你們衛福部的報告標準很特殊喔鼓勵啊鼓勵同仁運動啊部長會不會覺得你們衛福部的標準太寬啊我想這個都是調查委員專業的一個認定真的喔這樣子的認定你覺得很專業喔所以是勞動部那邊的不專業就對了是嗎"},{"start":732.799,"end":736.08,"text":"整個政府機關可以有不一樣的標準喔來 我請教部長你在一個工作環境裡 師長三不五時就要大家練深蹲啊"},{"start":756.203,"end":784.5,"text":"啊你覺得這個工作環境好不好?如果是在必要就是說健康的時間如果是在必要在健康的時間吶吼那有有要帶著大家運動那是一回事那如果強迫做比較比較大家超越體力吼或是不喜歡的市長都開口了下面的人趕不照著做當然這個就是不用擔心考記喔行政失當不用擔心升遷喔不用擔心在長官面前有沒有關愛的眼神喔"},{"start":787.383,"end":800.735,"text":"國務體系的邏輯是這樣嗎?當然委員的考量我都支持我都了解今天有很多委員針對這件事情提出質詢我相信部長感受很強烈"},{"start":801.912,"end":828.057,"text":"大家對於衛福部這種關關相互的態度啊是沒有辦法接受的是沒有辦法接受的我們絕對不會去關關相互是不是有關關相互是不是有關關相互社會上有社會上的評價嘛我們絕對不會去關關我保證絕對不會關關相互做出來的結果做出來的結果就這樣啊啊你現在的說辭跟前勞動部部長有什麼差別"},{"start":829.594,"end":837.841,"text":"當初前勞洛部長不是說我們尊重專業小組尊重外聘委員結果勒?結果勒?我想沒關係我們的調查報告都可以經過大家來考驗可以經過大家考驗就公開嘛那就我們第一個階段先跟各位委員報告不管是未完的或者是希望來了解我這樣講啦"},{"start":857.301,"end":880.93,"text":"我們到時候你們來說明的時候所有接到的投訴所有看到的檢舉我們一樣一樣做事實查核我們一樣一樣做事實查核如果裡面有調查小組該認定沒有認定該考慮沒有考慮該考慮沒有考慮被具體抓出來的話部長承諾重啟調查可不可以做到"},{"start":882.182,"end":906.627,"text":"你如果這麼有信心就不用擔心被檢驗嘛到時候來我辦公室說明的時候我一樣一樣對啊有該處理沒有處理該考慮沒考慮就重啟調查可不可以承諾如果有新的市政或者是不用新的市政嘛既有的市政沒有考慮就應該重啟調查了不是嗎是吧如果有多的補強的政績我們願意繼續來調查OK好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1842,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時23分）謝謝主席！主席，不好意思！先會議詢問一下，今天衛福部來的官員，長照司司長有來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：司長請假。"],["黃委員國昌：司長請假，請問主席有准嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有報名單。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在是怎麼樣？行政部門報名單，不管主席准不准？只要你有報名單，連主席都不知道，就可以不用來？沒有，我要先確定一下規矩，現在的規矩到底是怎麼樣？我們委員會開會的時候，行政部門只要報名單，不用經過主席同意，想不來就不來，是這樣嗎？社保司的司長有來嗎？"],["呂次長建德：現在是代理司長。"],["黃委員國昌：現在是代理司長，所以現在的代理司長是本來的副司長嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：那本來的司長呢？"],["邱部長泰源：他被調離社保司，所以今天沒來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以他先調離社保司，所以今天也不用來？我很尊重主席，只是有的時候主席你人太好了，你真的人太好了，他們沒有經過你的同意，說不來就不來，我某個程度也是幫主席打抱不平。我希望以後衛福部請假要先問過主席，這個基本的態度應該要建立吧！","來，有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["黃委員國昌：衛福部發生霸凌案讓大家都很痛心，早上質詢的人非常多，我們先回顧一下，當初賴清德總統也好，卓榮泰院長也好，他們跟臺灣社會都做出了莊嚴的承諾。甚至卓榮泰還說什麼？卓榮泰說，他要求各部門機關瞭解內部有沒有霸凌，有的話一個禮拜內完成調查，依法處理，卓榮泰講的話算話嗎？請教部長。"],["邱部長泰源：當然算話。"],["黃委員國昌：當然算話，他要求的時限是多久？"],["邱部長泰源：我們的確在一個禮拜，當時事件發生後我們開始調查，一個禮拜後我們有初步的報告。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在做的時間上，是卓榮泰搞不清楚狀況，連人總的那個處理指引和時限有多少都搞不清楚，當一個行政院院長，做這種政治性的發言，現行法規是一個禮拜嗎？現行法規如果不是一個禮拜，那我把它當成是行政院院長對於行政院所屬機關內部的自我強化要求。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！那現在這個內部的強化自我要求有做到嗎？我公開問這個問題就好了，是不是有做到？大家去對時間，卓榮泰講的話到底算不算話？更可笑的是什麼？你們的結果出來了，但為什麼今天有這麼多委員關心？社會譁然，有官職的、主管的統統不成立；沒有主管職的統統都成立，抓小放大，部長，這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們都是秉公處理，依法辦理，然後調查小組……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係！不用講官話，我就直接請教你，你個人做為衛福部的部長，這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們尊重調查小組，尤其是我們外部專業調查委員的建議。"],["黃委員國昌：當初前勞動部部長何佩珊也是這樣講的，做一個部長要有擔當，這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎？那你就勇敢的拍胸脯說：「我非常滿意嘛！」。"],["邱部長泰源：我尊重調查委員的意見，如果有新的事證，我們再繼續調查。"],["黃委員國昌：我具體請教，上班時間要員工深蹲、伏地挺身，這個是OK的嗎？來，請教部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個我回答好了，這件事情是發生在2022年12月，因為這位新進同仁……"],["黃委員國昌：只有一次是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：只有一次。"],["黃委員國昌：其他都沒有了？只有這一次？所以現在見諸……"],["邱部長泰源：就我們調查，就這麼一次。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，我們一樣一樣來。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["黃委員國昌：這位司長逼員工深蹲、伏地挺身，依照你們目前調查的結果，在他擔任司長的期間當中，只有一次，沒有別次了，是不是這樣？是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：調查的結果是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子的調查結果，部長，你認可嗎？為什麼我今天問司長為什麼沒有來？自己的事情自己不敢面對喔？如果調查這麼嚴謹、這麼坦蕩蕩，連來國會備詢的勇氣都沒有，還是你們整個衛福部幫他擋在前面？只有一次？只有一次？其他在媒體上面見諸報端的，我現在直接看後面，有深蹲值星官、深蹲聽訓、深蹲姿勢不對、聽短講聽到雙腿發抖會被糾正，這個全部都是不實爆料，是嗎？如果只有一次的話，倘若你們的調查結果是真的，我只有一個結論，所謂見諸報端的跟外界投書爆料的這些內容全部虛偽不實，這個是調查小組的結論嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個請召集人呂次長來說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝黃國昌委員對本案的關心跟垂詢，我想……"],["黃委員國昌：客氣的話不用講，直接回答問題就好了。"],["呂次長建德：好，伏地挺身就是一次。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這些爆料全部都不實，伏地挺身一次，深蹲幾次？"],["呂次長建德：深蹲的話，大約是從2024年5月的時候開始，然後……"],["黃委員國昌：總共有幾次？"],["呂次長建德：我們平常都會有健康操時間，然後是以鼓勵大家的方法……"],["黃委員國昌：所以用鼓勵的方式，同仁都很高興，樂於接受鼓勵，是這樣嗎？"],["呂次長建德：目前依我們的訪談，總共有14個，裡面有13位可以理解，但是確實有1位新進同仁覺得不習慣……"],["黃委員國昌：13位可以理解，是真的可以理解嗎？"],["呂次長建德：所以我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在見諸報章媒體上面的爆料，全部都是只有一個人抱怨，其他的人都覺得很OK，是這樣嗎？"],["呂次長建德：老實說，我也覺得這個司長這樣，是整個管理上面嚴重過當。"],["黃委員國昌：現在把規矩講清楚就好了啦！把規矩講清楚就好啦！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：長官可以要求屬下深蹲、伏地挺身嗎？可以還是不可以？"],["呂次長建德：絕對不可以。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對不可以嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯！"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們一樣一樣講清楚，那你們的報告講什麼？講說是用鼓勵的方式一起運動，調查小組認定沒有強迫，這個結論，部長，你滿意嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我請問部長。","部長，這個結論你滿意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想就是……"],["黃委員國昌：你們的次長，自己當召集人，他要幫自己調查小組的報告，捍衛他的立場，我尊重。雖然我不同意，但我尊重。但我現在請教的是部長，整個衛福部的同仁都在等你一個基本的態度。可以這樣做嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得如果有運動時間，應該要尊重每一個同仁他們自由的活動方式，所以如果有任何強迫去做特定的或太超過……"],["黃委員國昌：那你覺得司長都這樣下令了，同仁有沒有覺得被強迫？還有深蹲值星官喔？部長，我跟您交換一個意見，我們將心比心，今天我們立委監督行政部門，幫我們基層的公務員發聲，我們將心比心，我今天如果在質詢的時候請你深蹲，我請你伏地挺身，你一定會覺得這個立委一點道理都沒有，濫用職權，憑什麼要你深蹲，憑什麼要你伏地挺身。我們將心比心，我相信這樣子講部長應該可以認同。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，當然。"],["黃委員國昌：當然嘛。那每一個人都是一樣嘛。衛福部有司長官威很大，還有深蹲值星官喔。結果大家為什麼對你們衛福部的調查報告意見這麼強烈？你看嘛，第一個，調查報告全文不敢提供給立法院，說是要保護同仁，你們在討論臨時提案的時候，我人雖然沒在現場，我都透過院內的視訊在看你們的討論，其中一個理由是什麼？是怕同仁有心理壓力，怕有人按圖索驥去找到那個同仁，那我現在就有一個問題，找到那個同仁，然後呢？他會被誰壓迫？他會被誰秋後算帳？如果按照你們今天調查報告的結論，這一些主管職，每一個人繼續當主管，都沒有問題，那代表了什麼？代表了今天部長幫這些主管背書，他們繼續當主管，絕對不會有秋後算帳，絕對不會繼續霸凌同仁，你們調查報告的結論跟整個臺灣社會講的就是這一件事嘛，他們可以繼續當主管，部長背書OK，沒有問題。如果是這樣子的話，怎麼會有人擔心會被秋後算帳？連你們自己都沒信心了嘛。所以才不敢公布調查報告嘛。部長，我有沒有講錯？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們去識別化以後，今天的結論我們會去向每一個衛環的委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：那非衛環的委員呢？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有要求，我們願意去報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我現在要求來報告，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：順便講清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：你們的標準怎麼跟勞動部差這麼多？勞動部的謝宜容是叫大家跑步，勞動部的調查報告認為不可以這樣做，沒有擦脂抹粉，結果你們衛福部的報告標準很特殊，說是鼓勵同仁運動。部長，會不會覺得你們衛福部的標準太寬？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個都是調查委員專業的認定。"],["黃委員國昌：真的喔？這樣子的認定，你覺得很專業喔？所以是勞動部那邊的不專業就對了，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想……"],["黃委員國昌：整個政府機關可以有不一樣的標準喔？"],["邱部長泰源：認定的可能不是只有用一般的看法來認定一件事情，不是只有單單一件事情，而是看整體是不是一個不好的環境、不愉快的環境。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我請教部長，你在一個工作環境裡，司長三不五時就要大家練深蹲，你覺得這個工作環境好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：如果是在必要、在健康的……"],["黃委員國昌：如果是在必要、在健康？"],["邱部長泰源：在健康的時間，帶著大家運動，那是一回事，如果強迫做比較超越大家的體力或不喜歡的動作……"],["黃委員國昌：司長都開口了，下面的人敢不照著做？"],["邱部長泰源：當然這個都是……"],["黃委員國昌：不用擔心考績喔？"],["邱部長泰源：是行政失當。"],["黃委員國昌：不用擔心升遷喔？不用擔心在長官面前有沒有關愛的眼神喔？公務體系的邏輯是這樣嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然委員的考量我都支持、我都了解。"],["黃委員國昌：今天有很多委員針對這件事情提出質詢，我相信部長感受很強烈，大家對於衛福部這種官官相護的態度是沒有辦法接受的、是沒有辦法接受的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們絕對不會去官官相護，有多少證據就辦多少。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是有官官相護，社會上有社會上的評價。"],["邱部長泰源：我保證絕對不會官官相護。"],["黃委員國昌：做出來的結果就這樣啊！你現在的說詞跟前勞動部部長有什麼差別？當初前勞動部長不是說尊重專業小組、尊重外聘委員，結果呢？結果呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想，沒關係，我們的調查報告都可以經過大家來考驗。"],["黃委員國昌：可以經過大家的考驗就公開嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：我們第一個階段先跟各位委員報告，不管是衛環的，或者是希望來瞭解的……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講啦，到時候你們來說明，所有接到的投訴、所有看到的檢舉，我們一樣一樣做事實查核，我們一樣一樣做事實查核，如果裡面有調查小組該認定沒有認定、該考慮沒有考慮，被具體抓出來的話，部長，承諾重啟調查，可不可以做到？你如果這麼有信心，就不用擔心被檢驗，到時候來我辦公室說明，我一樣一樣對，有該處理沒有處理、該考慮沒考慮，就重啟調查，可不可以承諾？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有新的事證，或者是……"],["黃委員國昌：不用新的事證嘛！既有的事證沒有考慮就應該重啟調查了，不是嗎？是吧？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有多的補強的證據，我們願意繼續來調查。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長。","請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌"},{"start":754.298,"end":762.944,"text":"還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反對我同意同意同意同意嗎好"},{"start":776.534,"end":799.699,"text":"那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1763,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（13時10分）謝謝主席，是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，剛剛提案討論的時候，大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告，主要是你們精簡得太厲害了，你們剛剛說有幾十頁的報告，結果今天送出來的就是6頁，這6頁當中，其實都看不出過程，也看不到事實，只有你們的結論，當然外界對於這一份報告就會高度存疑，不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嘛！以下就要問你們在整個調查過程，第一件事情，你們總共請了4位外部委員，但是你要調查8個案子，請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談？每一個人員訪談的時間有多久？請回答。"],["邱部長泰源：我請召集人或處長……"],["王委員育敏：誰要回答？人事室處長？"],["李處長玉惠：跟各個委員報告，願意受訪的同仁，每個人至少15分鐘，這是第一。第二……"],["王委員育敏：才15分鐘？"],["李處長玉惠：至少15分鐘。"],["王委員育敏：有幾位？"],["李處長玉惠：平均每一案下來，都有十個人次，因為8個案子嘛！96……"],["王委員育敏：人還是人次？"],["李處長玉惠：人次。"],["王委員育敏：所以總共訪談幾位？"],["李處長玉惠：總共訪談96位。"],["王委員育敏：96位，這不是人次嘛！96人嘛！"],["李處長玉惠：對！然後……"],["王委員育敏：每一個人15分鐘？"],["李處長玉惠：至少15分鐘。"],["王委員育敏：那最多呢？"],["李處長玉惠：不好意思，因為我……其實我們都儘量讓他們講啦！應該大概是15到30分鐘，而且還有……委員，是不是允許我先這樣做報告，到時候到您辦公室都會有一些相關的資料給您看，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：我會問這個問題，就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真、確實地調查，因為調查的過程非常重要，從今天6頁的報告中，大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情，所以調查的過程有沒有足夠的時間，讓當事人可以做足夠的反映，其實這是非常地關鍵，因為這份報告大家都看不到事實，所以大家才會有這麼多的疑問。另外一個是8案當中，只有3案成立，5案沒有成立，報告當中也沒有去載明不成立的原因為何，坦白講，這一份報告簡化成這樣子，難怪委員不滿意啊！因為大家「霧煞煞」，看到你只有懲處，但發生什麼事情，大家還是完全得不到資訊；你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者，這個我當然贊成，因為他們是受害者，他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了，但是他為什麼要出來檢舉？因為忍無可忍，而檢舉之後，他要的是一個什麼？是一個公平正義、是希望衛福部還他一個公道，讓他以後可以安心在這個職場，不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待，甚至是霸凌，如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道，以後會造成什麼？寒蟬效應，即申訴了也沒有用啊！今天花那麼大的力氣、輿論討論這麼久，結果我去申訴了，這5案當中，我特別關切的是這5案為什麼不成立？坦白講，申訴要很大的勇氣，但是如果用這麼大的勇氣，也訪談了、也講了，結果最後你就告訴當事人不成立，你知道那個會有多挫折。","過去我也在地方服務過，我處理過性騷擾相關的案件，你知道有的當事人，當他被宣告性騷擾案不成立的時候，是他憂鬱症的開始，因為他覺得他都鼓起勇氣跟政府單位申訴，結果調查委員調查完之後，簡簡單單說「不成立」三個字，他就要痛苦一輩子。所以我要提醒部長、提醒次長，我們應該要站在申訴者這一方，當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後，才反映這件事情的時候，我贊成你剛剛講得勿枉勿縱，但是請你更要站在每一個鼓起勇氣、已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想，他今天是鼓起多大勇氣才敢講這件事，就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他，這個我贊成，因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣，但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話，你要知道那個後座力有多強，沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症，因為他覺得無望了，他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了，結果是被打回票。請問兩位，你們有掌握這5案不成立的理由，你們覺得真的是充分嗎？這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎？我要你們特別關注的是不成案的5個案子，你們每一案都有仔細地瞭解嗎？"],["呂次長建德：總召還有報告委員，我想分兩點來說明。其實之前我在臺中也當過社會局長，您剛剛所說的，像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些，基本上也是我的業務範圍，相關的報告就像您所說的，如果沒有成立的話，對於提起的人，事實上都是另外一個打擊。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["呂次長建德：我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情，同時也要利用這個機會，就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道，來建立我們的職場環境，這是第一個重點。第二個重點，我跟委員報告，剛剛也已經有一個決議，到時候我們會將報告帶到委員的辦公室，讓委員來親自審閱，我想這個部分，等到看完之後，調查委員在整個過程裡面，他的調查還有為什麼不成立的相關理由，調查報告書裡面也都有非常具體的呈現。"],["王委員育敏：次長，我要問你的是作為召集人，你都認同嗎？這5個案子，你有仔細地去瞭解過嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我都有詳細地去瞭解這5個案子，我可以作證，我也可以保證。"],["王委員育敏：所以你可以背書說，這5個案子沒有冤枉、不是霸凌案？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：你會背書？"],["呂次長建德：我會背書。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我們就等著看你們的內容是什麼。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["王委員育敏：因為我真的要提醒你們，天秤的兩端不要傾斜了。"],["呂次長建德：是的，當然。"],["王委員育敏：今天會站出來的這些人，我覺得是因為他受到了冤屈，也受到了壓迫，他才會站出來。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們的調查過程一定要非常地公平。"],["呂次長建德：是。委員，最後一個問題就是有關於時間的部分，因為我們調查人數非常眾多，還有時間必須非常緊，我們必須要在社會期待……"],["王委員育敏：所以到底有沒有調查完整啊？"],["呂次長建德：有！報告委員，我們調查完整，我跟委員報告，我們甚至連……"],["王委員育敏：離職的、轉調的都有約訪嗎？"],["呂次長建德：離職的部分有，還有因為……"],["王委員育敏：轉調的呢？"],["呂次長建德：有。還有另外一個就是，我們時間甚至已經利用到晚上還有假日，我們也都請委員、拜託委員他們前來，所以真的是每分每秒，我們都善用、極大化他的時間。"],["王委員育敏：好。我要求的就是一定要符合真相，沒有掩蓋，也沒有偏袒，這樣的調查報告才能讓大家信服，所以你們後續提供這份完整的調查報告，我們會仔細再來看。"],["呂次長建德：好的，感謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個，你們這一次霸凌案的處置，不如勞動部2.0版，看起來你們的標準其實是不一致的，在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌，你們強迫深蹲兼報告不是霸凌，用言語去叫人家輕生的這個，只有申誡兩支，長照司強迫運動的這個是小過一支，我就不知道你們懲戒的標準是什麼？你們最終做出的這個懲戒是由什麼單位做出來的？是人事單位嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不是，報告委員，其實誠如剛剛我所說的，我們在這裡面……"],["王委員育敏：這也是調查委員？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["王委員育敏：不可能吧？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這就是調查委員。"],["王委員育敏：調查委員有熟悉公務體系的，你不是說他們是專家學者嗎？外部的專家學者要怎麼告訴你們那個懲處範圍？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們在這裡面……"],["王委員育敏：這個你們要有自己的意見。"],["呂次長建德：不，基本上，整個調查程序都有按照它所蒐集的主客觀資訊和訪談的資料，之後再做出裁決。"],["王委員育敏：懲處怎麼會是委員來建議呢？"],["呂次長建德：對，他們是調查報告書出來之後，然後再經過兩道程序，第一個是由我親自主持，我們跟學者專家經過詳細的討論後，然後再做出相關的決議，這是第一個重點。第二個，決議完之後，還要送我們安全防護衛生小組來做審議，最後審議……"],["王委員育敏：要記小過或申誡？要不要記大過？要不要降調？這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權？"],["呂次長建德：對，他們是建議，他們建議完之後，經過我剛才說的安全防護衛生小組，最後是考績會。"],["王委員育敏：那你們沒有看到你們這個懲處標準是不一的嗎？"],["呂次長建德：對，因為他的情節輕重不一。"],["王委員育敏：所以你是說，讓人家輕生的這種不當言語是比較輕的？然後深蹲是比較重的？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，經過我們的調查，所謂的「輕生」等等這些是指，當時他在指導同仁，你在做整個相關業務時，你必須要先自己處理。"],["王委員育敏：次長，容我提醒你，會用言語霸凌別人的人，這是有他性格上的問題，這不會只有一次，也不會是單一事件，而且剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來，在他擔任組長的期間也有同樣的情況，所以我才會懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰，如果說他只是突然冒出口，但是一個人不會突然蹦出那麼嚴厲叫人家輕生的話，這跟他原來的某一個性格是有關係的，所以你們真的有鉅細靡遺地去訪談嗎？就像勞動部的謝宜容，他長期以來就是這個樣子，他不會突然只講一句話去霸凌別人，沒有這件事情，他的風格就是這個樣子，所以謝宜容一開始也說吳姓員工跟他完全沒有關係，他還有請律師發聲明稿，結果勞動部第二次的調查，部長下令要嚴審調查之後，結果反轉了，而且是大逆轉，是有關的，因為這是從工作上的壓迫延續下來的，所以我要提醒部長跟次長，你們在處理這件事情時，你們一定要放開你們心中的包袱。"],["呂次長建德：一定，當然。"],["王委員育敏：我知道衛福部裡面有很多的一級主管大家都很辛苦，但這是一回事，如果他在過程中有不當的管理、壓迫，甚至是霸凌，然後讓底下的員工更辛苦，那他就不適合擔任這個主管，主管是要帶領員工，而不是壓迫下面的員工。"],["呂次長建德：我完全同意，我完全同意委員的說法。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個一定要切割開來處理，但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容，你們就是沒有一致的標準。坦白講，你們就是沒有一致的標準，跟勞動部比起來，你們是比較輕，你們是輕輕放下，我不知道這個原因是什麼，但是我覺得應該要處理。","最後，我提醒，不只是你們公部門的霸凌，還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮，我要具體的建議，醫院這個部分也一定要處理，其實醫護人員也非常辛苦。醫師公會已經要求，霸凌的申訴機制要納入評鑑的項目，部長，你應該要表態，這件事情你贊成？還是反對？"],["邱部長泰源：我同意。"],["王委員育敏：同意，好，我希望醫院這個體制也不應該有這個情況，之前我們也看到有護理師遭到霸凌而自殘，這也是不應該發生的事情，所以未來應該要建立一個機制，讓我們的醫護人員可以在一個健康的環境，不被霸凌、欺壓的環境裡，安心為國人的健康來努力，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們一定會朝這個方向全力來努力。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員和部長。","接下來請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{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48,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在是34組如果增購12組應該我們運能可以提升三分之一左右那大概是到多少"},{"start":209.815,"end":223.465,"text":"目前的運能大概我們最高最高可以達到每日大概現在已經超過20萬了20萬了今年民國幾年113年超過20萬好那我請教一下局長這個就是81年1992年高鐵計劃裡面說預期到2011年每日就會達到78萬人次高鐵到那時候會負擔四分之一會達到19萬人次請你告訴我在"},{"start":237.415,"end":241.156,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算"},{"start":257.58,"end":276.795,"text":"現在有沒有人說高鐵是廢鐵?沒有。現在高鐵的運量能不能滿足?不夠嘛。所以要繼續成長嘛。只是成長的比預期時間晚一點到。所以未來高鐵的運量全台灣20年後你覺得高鐵一天的運量需要多少?所長可不可以告訴我們部長?"},{"start":278.584,"end":283.81,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":291.852,"end":304.657,"text":"我們在採改案的時候曾經做過評估,也就是說高鐵在未來的20年後特許期滿的時候應該會達到我印象中是28還是30左右30萬,現在是20萬嘛,30萬是幾年後20年後不是20年後,大概30年後"},{"start":314.841,"end":343.9,"text":"三十年後高鐵會到達30萬。好,到那時候是不是高鐵就會環島了?部長你敢不敢這樣去判斷?部長,最後的時間。我覺得有它的機率啦。有它的可能性。對。所以要預作準備。對。對不對?對。所以現在我們在地方上對於高鐵的延伸它其實不是變成I變成C,它要變成O。但是最後這個O的東部要怎麼連?什麼時候連?其實我們有個醞釀的評估。這個責任你要交給誰?是不是交給所長要去評估?"},{"start":345.342,"end":371.297,"text":"所長,你有沒有被賦予這個責任要去評估?運研所?目前還沒有目前還沒有,你看部長,這就是問題了我很佩服在30年前我們那時候的交通先進有這個遠見在楊局長剛進入工部門的時候他們就豪氣萬千地提出了一個當民國100年高鐵一日的運量有20萬人次雖然過了又過了10年才達成"},{"start":372.478,"end":386.443,"text":"但是你現在評估20年後30年後高鐵的運賜是每天要到達30萬次當那時候我們高鐵的軌道列車的主數絕對不是現在的規模對不對那有沒有開始預作規劃了"},{"start":387.711,"end":414.978,"text":"部長你可不可以給本席現在最後一頁您今天提醒我就覺得有需要做啦就是未來30年台灣的整體的軌道的規劃是長什麼樣的面貌那未來的運量是長什麼樣的面貌我覺得現在應該要開始做規劃是因為有30年前包括楊局長在內他們做了這個規劃今天我們台灣的民眾才能享受這樣的高鐵運輸對不對所以你的任內你必須為30年後20年後的台灣民眾預作設想你同意嗎"},{"start":416.439,"end":437.492,"text":"您是最年輕的部會首長你有這個義務我們不見得能夠那時候都退休不知道什麼時候了你有這個義務當你退休的時候你可以很驕傲的說30年前你當交通部長的時候你已經要求做這個規劃而且逐步在實現了好不好最後一點點小小的拜託因為我每次看交通部的規劃你們都有一個財務評估"},{"start":439.073,"end":455.64,"text":"那個財務評估其實現在來看局長你告訴部長現在高鐵的情況是當時你們規劃的財務評估的實況嗎是嗎有沒有落差有沒有預期高鐵現在有大部分的資金是來自政府有沒有當時規劃不是這樣是的"},{"start":456.599,"end":471.458,"text":"所以所以我要告訴你在30年前我們規劃高鐵之後想像的是BOT想像的是政府的財務能力有限所以我們都用BOT的概念去思考說移到民間來儲值政府儲值很少相對少但是現在呢高鐵告訴我們"},{"start":472.259,"end":495.658,"text":"政府不能夠去輕估我們自己籌辦基礎建設的能力但是我這裡不是叫我們編列預算我覺得您好好的跟金管會的彭主委討論您好好的跟財政部長討論好好的跟國發會的主委討論現在台灣的油資單單是保險的部位國人的超額儲蓄在我們的保單就超過35兆"},{"start":497.159,"end":516.269,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家"},{"start":522.933,"end":549.014,"text":"用運用民間的方式用資本金融的槓桿的方式讓民間的資金進來為未來台灣的環島高鐵做努力最後這個部分我把它拿掉您可不可以就財務的部分特別在你們的評估當中請運研所就財務的報告擺脫過去所謂的財務那樣的一個能夠怎麼樣自我負擔嘛你們都是用營運能夠滿足嘛現在高鐵打平了沒"},{"start":550.387,"end":567.866,"text":"打平了沒有?比你們預期的是早還是晚?打平了,有賺錢。早,那是因為政府資金注入嘛。現在政府不用注入那麼多,現在民間油資很多。如果你們現在開始籌備,現在這些資金導入10年20年的長期建設,我告訴你,現在買10年美債的都很後悔啦。"},{"start":568.852,"end":593.106,"text":"為什麼?你買美的美在幫美國做建設啊但是你要買什麼?買臺灣臺灣的公債部長你知道嗎?你可以發行二類公債你知道嗎?是你可以回去評估一下?所長你會告訴我們部長什麼是二類公債?有發行鐵道局是規劃二類公債嗎?我們有發行一類公債一類公債嘛對不對?有發行一類公債賣的怎麼樣?支持我們相關的建設目前一類公債你們發行多少?"},{"start":597.096,"end":624.026,"text":"一、二、五兆還是一、二、五億?你們是一、二、五億啦沒有啦沒有啦應該有一兩百億啦兩百億左右兩百億我覺得至少呢你可以在後面再加個兩個零都沒有問題臺灣目前的能力是負擔得起的兩百億加兩個零是多少?兩兆而已啊才兩兆啊臺灣目前的超額需求在保證的部分就三十四兆您好好思考一下部長可以同意嗎?會不會給一個評估什麼時候可以給本席"},{"start":625.429,"end":651.528,"text":"這個評估可能沒那麼快吧對我沒問題這不能急但是要趁著局長還年輕所長還沒有退休前留給我們下一代好不好這個評估報告的規劃啦就是說我們要怎麼樣做評估報告因為可能要鐵道局跟運營所要一起是的那所以兩邊先來討論一下是不是我們一個月或兩個月後跟委員報告三個月好不好三個月三個月給我包含你們的財務規劃把我們民間包括以內公債不是做完啦是"},{"start":652.278,"end":654.459,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時29分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請交通部陳部長、運輸研究所林所長，還有一直在看著我、很想上來的鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、林所長和楊局長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好！所長好！局長好！"],["陳部長世凱：委員好！"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我的題目：「30年前高鐵運量預測成真，20年後臺灣高鐵需求為何？」來，請教一下部長，我們往下看，來，你知道高鐵幾歲了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：高鐵20歲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啦！明年18歲。我請教一下，因為你比較年輕，十大建設前你還沒出生嘛！所以我們差了一個世代，我出生的時候後來剛好在弄十大建設。這個圖是一小時的臺灣活動範圍，你的世代是1980年，你出生的時候十大建設已經完成，我們一小時的生活圈已經這麼大了。到了2007年，高鐵通車之後，我們一小時生活圈的距離又擴大了，你覺得我們臺灣有比較進步吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，這是我從1992年的高鐵計畫裡拿下來的。好，那請問所長和局長，你們有沒有參與高鐵的規劃？所長有沒有？"],["林所長繼國：當時我已經在運研所，但是我沒有參與那個可行性研究。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那局長有沒有？"],["楊局長正君：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們請局長。局長，今年年初我在質詢陳建仁前院長的時候，我說環島高鐵ICO，我的「I」，你認為是怎樣？從板橋到新左營，一條線，是不是這樣？那現在高鐵有沒有到南港？有嘛！未來會不會到宜蘭？會。那南部呢？是往東會到屏東，所以高鐵的南北端會分別延伸變成一個「C」，是不是這樣？那你認為我的「O」是什麼意思？"],["楊局長正君：環島。"],["鍾委員佳濱：環島，很好，你有參與高鐵的規劃，你參與高鐵規劃時，你應該還很年輕，是幾年前？1992年。"],["楊局長正君：1990年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你那時候剛畢業進入公部門。"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以距離現在幾年？"],["楊局長正君：超過33年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：32年了！那時候你有沒有遇到高鐵會環島？"],["楊局長正君：還沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒有，好，往下看。部長，你來看。往下。你知道發生什麼事嗎？最近高鐵尖峰時刻發生高鐵潑水之亂？還是自由座之亂？是哪一個？部長知道這件事情嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是什麼原因造成的？高鐵會怎麼樣？它在研擬要怎麼改善，你覺得要怎麼改善？以後上自由座的人不能帶水瓶嗎？不是，這是什麼原因造成的？局長，告訴一下部長，為什麼會產生這個情況？"],["陳部長世凱：座位不夠。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，就是目前臺灣高鐵的運量已經不能滿足臺灣民眾尖峰時候的需求，對不對？那要怎麼辦？高鐵要怎麼解？部長，你覺得呢？"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們有購車的計畫，希望能夠提升運量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，提升運量。請問局長，你告訴部長，如果高鐵增購12組列車，預估它未來每一天的運量可以到幾萬人次？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，因為現在是34組，如果增購12組，我們的運能應該可以提升三分之一左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那大概是到多少？"],["楊局長正君：目前每日最高的運能已經超過20萬了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：已經超過20萬，今年是民國幾年？113年，超過20萬。那我請教一下局長，這個是81年（1992年）的高鐵計畫，這裡面提到預估到民國100年（2011年）臺灣西部走廊長途客運需求將達每日78萬人次，高鐵將服務其中約四分之一之運量，每日可達19萬次，請你告訴我，在2011年的時候，高鐵有這樣的運量嗎？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，那現在有沒有？"],["楊局長正君：現在有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，接下來就是你的事了，其實高鐵的預測沒錯，只是稍微慢了幾年，不要說17年前，連7年前……17年前高鐵剛開通的時候，甚至有人說這是廢鐵，沒有人要搭，現在有沒有人說高鐵是廢鐵？沒有。現在高鐵的運量能不能滿足？不夠嘛！所以要繼續成長嘛！只是成長比預期的時間晚到一點，所以未來20年後，高鐵一天的運量需要多多少？所長，你可不可以告訴部長？你估計20年後大概多多少？30年前我們預期高鐵的運量一天將超過20萬次，只是晚到了幾年，晚到了10年，未來呢？20年後會怎樣？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，我們在採可案的時候曾經做過評估，也就是說，高鐵在未來的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：20年後？"],["楊局長正君：高鐵在特許期滿的時候，我印象中，一天的運量將會達到28萬或是30萬次左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：30萬？現在是20萬嘛！30萬是幾年後？20年後？"],["楊局長正君：不是20年後，大概30年後。"],["鍾委員佳濱：30年後高鐵一天的運量將會達到30萬次，到那時候，高鐵是不是就可以環島了？部長，你敢不敢這樣去判斷？部長，最後的時間。"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得有它的機率。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有它的可能性。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要預做準備，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以現在地方上對於高鐵的延伸，其實它不是從「I」變成「C」，它是要變成「O」，但是最後這個「O」的東部要怎麼連？什麼時候連？其實我們有一個運量的評估，這個責任你要交給誰？是不是要交給所長去評估？所長，你有沒有被賦予這個責任要去評估？運研所？"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，目前還沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前還沒有，部長，你看，這個就是問題，我很佩服30年前我們的交通先進有這個遠見，在楊局長剛進入公部門的時候，他們就豪氣萬千的提出到民國100年高鐵一日的運量有20萬人次，雖然是過了10年才達成，但是你現在評估20年後、30年後，高鐵每天的運量要達到30萬次，那時候高鐵的軌道、列車的組數絕對不是現在的規模，對不對？那你們有沒有開始預做規劃？部長，你可不可以給本席答復？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你今天提醒後，我覺得有需要做，就是未來30年臺灣整體軌道規劃是長什麼樣的面貌？未來的運量又是長什麼樣的面貌？我覺得現在應該要開始做規劃，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，已經有30年前的，包括楊局長在內，他們做了這個規劃，今天臺灣的民眾才能夠享受這樣的高鐵運輸，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你任內必須要為30年後、20年後的臺灣民眾預做設想，你同意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個非常同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是最年輕的部會首長，你有這個義務，因為那個時候我們都退休了，所以你有這個義務，當你退休的時候，你可以很驕傲的說，30年前你當交通部長的時候，你有要求做這個規劃，而且逐步在實現了，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後一點點小小的拜託，因為我每次看交通部的規劃，你們都有一個財務評估，其實那個財務以現在來看，局長，你告訴部長，現在高鐵的情況是當時你們規劃的財務評估實況嗎？是嗎？有沒有落差？"],["楊局長正君：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有預期現在高鐵大部分的資金都是來自於政府，有沒有？"],["楊局長正君：當時規劃不是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以我要告訴你們，30年前我們規劃高鐵的時候，我們想像的是BOT，想像的是政府的財務能力有限，所以我們都用BOT的概念去思考，依賴民間出資，政府出資相對較少，但是現在呢？現在高鐵告訴我們，政府不能夠輕估自己籌辦基礎建設的能力，我在這裡不是叫我們自己要編列預算，我是覺得你要好好的跟金管會彭主委討論；你要好好的跟財政部長討論；你要好好的跟國發會主委討論，現在臺灣的游資，單單是保險的部位，國人的超額儲蓄占我們的保單就超過35兆元，它目前找不到出路，為什麼目前房地產一直在高漲？因為國外投資賺的錢一直回來，但是沒有新的投資標的。三十幾年前、我小的時候，四十幾年前有十大建設，那是政府拿錢出來，我覺得在你任內，你們的財務評估不能夠用政府的預算來思考；不能用公務預算編列的角度來思考，而是要用什麼方式？要運用民間的方式，用資本、金融的槓桿方式，讓民間的資金進來為未來臺灣的環島高鐵做努力。","最後這個部分我把它拿掉，你可不可以就財務的部分，特別是在你們的評估中，請運研所就財務的報告，擺脫過去所謂的財務必須要自我負擔，因為你們都是用營運要能夠滿足，但是現在高鐵打平了沒？打平了沒有？比你們預期的早？還是晚？"],["陳部長世凱：打平了，有賺錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：早，那是因為政府有注入資金。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在政府不用注入那麼多的資金，現在民間游資很多，如果你們現在開始籌備，將這些資金導入10年、20年的長期建設，我告訴你，現在買10年美債的都很後悔，為什麼？你買美債是幫美國做建設，所以你要買臺灣的公債，部長，你知道你可以發行乙類公債嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可不可以回去評估一下？所長，你可不可以告訴部長什麼是乙類公債？"],["陳部長世凱：鐵道局有發行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是規劃乙類公債嘛？"],["楊局長正君：我們有發行乙類公債。"],["鍾委員佳濱：乙類公債嘛！對不對？"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有發行乙類公債，那賣得怎麼樣？"],["楊局長正君：那是支持我們相關的建設。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前乙類公債你們發行了多少？1.25兆？還是1.25億？你們是1.25億。"],["楊局長正君：沒有，應該有一、二百億，200億左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：200億？"],["楊局長正君：200億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得至少後面再加2個零都沒有問題，臺灣目前的能力是負擔得起的，200億元後面再加2個零是多少？2兆元而已，才2兆元，目前臺灣超額儲蓄的部分，光是保單的部分就有34兆元，你好好思考一下，部長可以同意嗎？可不可以給我一個評估？什麼時候可以給本席？"],["陳部長世凱：這個評估可能沒有那麼快，如果要做30年的話。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我沒有問題，這個不能急，但是要趁局長還年輕，所長還沒有退休前，請留給我們下一代，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：這個評估報告的規劃，就是我們要怎麼做的評估報告，因為這個鐵道局要和運研所一起，所以兩邊要先討論一下，是不是我們1個月後或2個月後再跟委員報告？"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月，好不好？3個月後給我，包含你們的財務規劃，把民間、包括乙類公債。"],["陳部長世凱：不是做完。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是評估要怎麼做，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：對，評估要怎麼做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我是很能等的，我對自己的壽命有耐心和信心，我會等，在你卸任前，我希望能夠看到20年、30年後臺灣的高鐵規劃是從你任內開始進行的，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長！謝謝所長！謝謝局長！"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","接下來請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決議：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員黃健豪所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復者，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。四、114年國家運輸安全調查委員會、交通部運研所、鐵道局及所屬單位預算，及鐵道發展基金非營業預算等4項預算案，均另擇期進行處理，委員預算提案的時間訂於12月25日禮拜三中午12點截止收件。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158175","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158175","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1c0bc333c10273495041ac1bd29e6d5ffddbfeaa1773dd92fc1ddeb1cac72fbc55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:15:17 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airports."},{"start":272.857,"end":273.477,"text":"好,那下一張齁,那個"},{"start":299.349,"end":327.091,"text":"因為你所其實做的事情我覺得都還可以值得鼓勵你看你們還做一個分析就是那個北美經過桃園機場往返亞太市場的探討所以你們研究的是台灣可以飛到華盛頓跟波士頓所以長榮也在評估當中那很多的航空公司其實他們都靠自己收集data啦其實也很辛苦啦也不是說馬上那麼準確啦如果從我們整個機場"},{"start":328.773,"end":340.931,"text":"大數據來做一個客觀的分析我想就會可以更精確所以你們這一套應該類似我剛剛提到的就是比較大數據比較所有的total的資料做一個整體的分析嘛"},{"start":342.291,"end":369.289,"text":"我們就是已經累積大概十幾年每年都會持續去收集國際上主要的一些機場特別是跟我們有競爭的一些機場包括它的一些機場的服務能量飛航的航班航空公司航線我們就是可以每年會從這裡面透過大數據的分析針對一些國內民航發展重要的一些議題我們會去做大數據分析"},{"start":371.89,"end":373.951,"text":"另外一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。"},{"start":392.361,"end":418.236,"text":"像最近我是在聯合航空打算從高雄飛東京那從東京再飛美國那我們一直希望可以從有機會從高雄飛美國那當然他們自己也要去收集這些data然後去做一個分析那看航空公司也很正常啦了解的生意沒人做嘛但是你如果數據有夠人手有夠我想是他們盡管去背吧"},{"start":419.389,"end":430.806,"text":"所以這個部分是不是我們南台灣往返歐美市場的研究、探討可不可以拜託運營所也報告給我們各位,跟我們討論一下"},{"start":431.732,"end":431.752,"text":"對,這個其實..."},{"start":454.262,"end":476.608,"text":"我現在去了解運輸研究所真的是做的事不錯真的是可以值得鼓勵所以還是一樣先給你拍個手不過還是說給你比較多的工作不好意思希望你來還有第三項其實24小時的機場真的對南台灣來講是有必要"},{"start":478.795,"end":505.784,"text":"那我們小港機場受限於宵禁所以我們一直困擾著高雄機場的發展那我們其實可以知道全世界各國各大城市都有如果是城市機場有宵禁的話大部分都還會有就是在比較遠附近的地方去選擇一個24小時的機場你可以看到日本"},{"start":507.173,"end":514.136,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":534.721,"end":562.48,"text":"台北呢你可以看到台北跟桃園的搭配也是一個是有宵禁一個是沒宵禁那高雄呢真的是受限於宵禁的問題所以我們很希望有機會可以有一個南台灣24小時的機場這個部分不知道有沒有機會再拜託運營所再給我們做一個看能不能幫我們找出一塊地啊看哪裡比較適合"},{"start":563.936,"end":588.799,"text":"跟委員報告一個機場場址的這個選擇跟評估事實上它涉及到要需要一個比較專案的計畫做研究跟分析我知道早年也曾經探討過台南的七股那個場址是不是適合但是經過研究分析當然它還是有面臨一些問題所以沒有辦法去推動"},{"start":589.54,"end":612.201,"text":"所以這個部分我是不是建議說當然我們可以跟民航局跟幹部市政府一起我們來跟他們做技術上面的一個參與提供一些我們專業上面的一些意見跟他們一起來做討論我想你們在105年也有做過高雄縣政府那時候請你們做過那當然後來沒有結果"},{"start":616.064,"end":619.005,"text":"elcome to the next session."},{"start":634.87,"end":650.835,"text":"而不是說哪個點我評估一下不適合那就算了,哪個點評估不適合就是算了,因為我們有這個需求。所以可不可以運輸研究所辛苦一點就是說我就是要找出一個點可不可以拜託運輸研究所做這樣子的研究,這樣子我就可以到最後有個具體的答案。"},{"start":652.216,"end":678.262,"text":"跟委員報告是不是可能先建議請地方政府看看他們有沒有初步認為有這一個適合的這一個地點因為他還是要有一定的我跟妳講上面那個照片是誰市長就是我們地方政府我們陳其邁市長其實都在努力嘛地點是不是合當然就是說"},{"start":679.511,"end":686.226,"text":"市長也在這一部分他有極大的需求但是沒有這一部分的專業這部專業就是說你們運輸研究所"},{"start":689.4,"end":695.242,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算．並備質詢。 eyebr四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算．"},{"start":716.63,"end":738.08,"text":"就是要拜託你說,阿你比較專業,用你的角度來看,對一點有適合我們地方政府。我跟你說,你如果找出來地方政府都配合啦,地方政府都很喜歡。我跟委員報告是這樣,我們來聯繫這個幾個地方的政府,然後看看初步我們共同先盤點有沒有可能的點位。"},{"start":739.341,"end":741.403,"text":" bicyclone 審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":761.625,"end":781.151,"text":"當然你如果說整個南台灣都找不到一個適合的,我們就實在是忍痛的沒辦法。但是我就是希望南台灣能找到一個有機會的,我們來泡麵。這個部分拜託議員所馬來道三天。我來跟民安局來做那個來泡麵看看。所以不好意思今天拜託你三項事情。"},{"start":782.827,"end":811.169,"text":"因為機場空車模擬分身系統我們機場要改建這段時間要配套需要做科學的調整跟協助第二個我們希望有高雄南台灣到歐美市場的航線那也希望說比照你的桃園機場往返亞太市場的研究可以為我們高雄也做一個這樣子的探討第三個就是我們南台灣24小時的機場這三件事情就拜託所長"},{"start":812.31,"end":812.33,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1038,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時15分）主席，剛才我們要開會都遲到這麼久，我這邊被抓破皮，要跟主席抗議一下。"],["主席：是不是我們交通委員會抓的？"],["許委員智傑：不是交通委員會，是別的委員會。所以主席要反映一下。"],["主席：待會多兩分鐘給你。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。先請運研所林所長。"],["主席：請林所長。"],["林所長繼國：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：所長好，請部長先坐著聽就好了，不過因為這個跟整個機場有很大的關係，希望部長也可以了解。所長你們做的這個系統不錯，應該給予鼓勵，也就是機場管理模擬不用再委外，以前是委外吧？"],["林所長繼國：以往因為國內沒有本土的這種軟體可以直接做評估、分析，所以都是在專案裡面用國外發展的商業軟體來做這樣的評估分析。"],["許委員智傑：你們做的這個其實是滿好的，請用一分鐘講解你們的優點跟使用情形，讓部長也了解一下。"],["林所長繼國：是。我們可以把機場空側整個場域裡面，涉及到的一些作業單位，他們在作業上面所會運用到的一些，比如航管的航機隔離，或是跑道的一個運用，萬一有施工的一些狀況時，我們可以把這些相關因素，輸入到我們的這個軟體平台裡面，它可以幫你建立一個讓機場空側的營運效率是比較好的一個方案出來。以往有時候要由人來判斷，有時候則要用國外的商業軟體，我們現在的這個軟體完全是為自己本土的機場，目前是桃機這個部分，去量身訂做的一套軟體。"],["許委員智傑：是的。部長，運研所所長表現不錯，先給他鼓勵一下，就是桃機這樣一個空側模擬分析系統，不管是飛機起落，航廈或是跑道之間的問題，都可以讓電腦幫助你做得更快、更精準。"],["林所長繼國：特別是施工，如果有一些施工或一些特殊狀況的時候，它可以幫我們事先模擬一下，告訴我們這個施工的位置、期間，可能會對營運產生什麼樣的影響……"],["許委員智傑：辛苦了。不過，不要做越好，事情越多，這樣就比較不好意思！但因為我們是公務員，可以多改善國家的機場，這當然是好事，所以高雄機場的部分也要拜託所長。"],["林所長繼國：是。"],["許委員智傑：高雄機場現在準備施工16年，好長的時間！我一直希望民航局可以把時間縮短，不管可以縮短多少，這是其一；其二，就是這段時間，如果我們沒有去思考所有的各項配套，上一次部長也有聽到，包括停機坪、基地等等，高雄機場其實還有很大的調整空間，包括運研所好不容易做出這一套系統，這個好東西如果沒有好好使用，也很可惜，是不是有辦法套用在我們高雄機場？這個OK嗎？"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，目前雖然是針對桃機優先量身訂做，但基本的一個空側模擬方法，跟它的觀念是相同的，如果國內其他機場要做的話也可以，就是要把它的場面，還有它的營運操作的一些參數輸入進去。"],["許委員智傑：所以就要拜託部長撥駕到我們高雄。"],["林所長繼國：是。我們跟民航局這邊也有做教育訓練，也有做移轉，我們願意跟民航局一起來看看怎麼樣能夠……"],["許委員智傑：願意喔！就拜託運研所主動跟民航局聯絡，也拜託部長跟民航局講一下，這個好東西要現在來用，不用可惜！也正好可以解決我們高雄的問題。","我覺得運研所做的事情，其實都值得鼓勵。你們還做了一個分析，就是北美經過桃園機場往返亞太市場的探討，你們研究的是臺灣可以飛到華盛頓跟波士頓，長榮現在也在評估當中。很多航空公司都靠自己收集data，很辛苦，而且也不是那麼準確，如果是從整個機場的大數據來做客觀的分析，我想可以更精確。所以你們這一套應該類似我剛剛提到的，比較屬於大數據，比較是用total的資料去做整體的分析。"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，我們在這個部分已經累積大概十幾年，每年都會持續去收集國際上一些主要的機場，特別是跟我們有競爭的這些機場，包括它的機場服務能量、飛航的航班、航空公司的航線，我們每年都會從這裡透過大數據的分析，針對國內民航發展一些重要的議題去做大數據的分析，並提出建議。"],["許委員智傑：感謝。所以再跟部長報告一下，有在做事情的公務員要多鼓勵。這個其實也是個好東西，長榮也覺得你的這個研究很好，也納入評估當中，可不可以再拜託你撥駕到高雄？因為我最近知道聯合航空打算從高雄飛東京，從東京再飛美國，我們一直希望可以從高雄飛美國，當然他們自己也要去收集這些data，然後去做分析，其實也很正常啦，賠錢的生意沒人做，但如果數據是夠的、人數是夠的，我相信航空公司很願意飛！針對南臺灣往返歐美市場的研究探討，可不可以拜託運研所也撥駕到高雄，來幫忙我們？"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，我們把它納入年度重要議題的一個項目，如果這個資料庫裡面的資料，目前還不夠的話，我們會加速優先來購買，然後對這個議題做潛在的市場分析。"],["許委員智傑：我現在了解運研所真的是做得不錯，真的是值得鼓勵，所以還是一樣先給你拍拍手；不過還是要給你們比較多的工作，希望你來高雄，這個比較不好意思！","還有第三項，對南臺灣來講，24小時的機場其實是有必要的，小港機場受限於宵禁，這一點一直困擾著高雄機場的發展。其實我們也都知道在世界各國的各大城市，如果城市機場有宵禁的話，大部分都還會在比較遠的附近地方去選擇一個24小時的機場，像日本東京的羽田機場跟成田機場有宵禁的跟沒有宵禁的，然後大阪跟關西也是有宵禁跟沒宵禁的，甚至首爾的金浦機場跟仁川機場，也是有宵禁跟沒宵禁，倫敦有三個機場也有這樣子的分別；臺北跟桃園的搭配，也是一個有宵禁，一個沒宵禁。高雄受限於宵禁的問題，我們很希望南臺灣可以有一個24小時的機場，拜託運研所能不能幫我們找出一塊地，看哪裡比較適合。"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，機場場址的選擇跟評估，它需要一個比較專案的計畫去做研究跟分析，我知道早年也曾經探討過臺南七股那個場址是不是適合，經過研究分析之後，還是有一些問題，所以就沒有辦法去推動。對於這個部分，我們可以跟民航局、高雄市政府，一起來做技術上面的參與，提出我們在專業上面的意見，供他們一起來做討論。"],["許委員智傑：高雄縣政府在105年的時候，也有請你們做過研究，後來沒有結果；如你剛才所說的，七股你們也有評估過……"],["林所長繼國：很早的時候。"],["許委員智傑：也沒有結果。當時你們著眼的，就是我有個點讓你去評估OK或不OK，這是一個概念；但是我現在要從臺南、高雄、屏東，即南高屏、南臺灣的角度一起思考，找出一個點；而不是哪個點我去評估一下，不適合，就算了。因為我們有這個需求，可否拜託運研所辛苦一點，做這樣的研究，就是要找出一個點，這樣我們就可以有個具體的答案。"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，是不是建議地方政府先看看他們有沒有初步認為適合的這一個地點，因為它還是要有一定的……"],["許委員智傑：我跟你講，上面那個照片是誰？就是我們地方政府，其實陳其邁市長也都在努力！至於地點適不適合，市長在這部分有極大的需求，但是沒有這部分的專業，看起來運研所在這部分的專業是比較好一點，所以我現在隨便講幾個點，都是可能評估的點，像南星計畫往南在林園的那個地點，甚至往南的屏東，或是往北比如我的選區彌陀、永安、茄萣，甚至臺南，你說七股評估過不適合，還有沒有其他點？所以你要地方政府找一個點給你，但因為你們比較專業，我就拜託你用你們的角度來看有哪個地點比較適合，如果找出來了，地方政府都很喜歡，也都會配合。"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，我們來聯繫這幾個地方政府，我們初步先共同盤點有沒有可能的點位，然後再協同民航局來做初步的評估。因為真正要決定這個是不是適合，還需要比較細部的專業評估，當然我們可以先做初步的一個可行性評估，然後再看是不是值得往下進行。如果經過初步評估，都沒有適合的……"],["許委員智傑：如果整個南臺灣都找不到一個適合的點，我們就忍痛，那也就沒辦法……"],["林所長繼國：是。"],["許委員智傑：但我還是希望有機會可以在南臺灣找到點，讓我們來努力。"],["林所長繼國：了解。"],["許委員智傑：這個部分要拜託運研所來幫忙，好不好？"],["林所長繼國：我們再跟民航局來一起努力看看。"],["許委員智傑：不好意思，今天拜託你三樣事情：第一項是機場空側模擬分析系統，我們機場要改建，這段時間需要配套，需要做科學的調整跟協助；第二項我們希望有高雄，也就是南臺灣到歐美市場的航線，希望比照你的桃園機場往返亞太市場的研究，可以為我們高雄也做一個這樣子的探討；第三項就是南臺灣24小時的機場。這三件事情就拜託所長，好不好？"],["林所長繼國：是。"],["許委員智傑：不好意思，給你找這麼多工作！真的是做得越好，人家會越稱讚，雖然工作比較多，但是對生命有意義。"],["林所長繼國：是，謝謝委員，我們會全力以赴。"],["許委員智傑：拜託所長！拜託部長支持。謝謝主席讓我超過時間，剛才的抗議就算了，過去就好了，謝謝。"],["林所長繼國：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許委員。","接下來有請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158174","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158174","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1d4e5ed5b3e5180d8041ac1bd29e6d5ffddbfeaa1773dd92f50347cd0a995e7775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:09:08 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12:14:53","影片長度":"00:05:45","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算。\n五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算。\n【僅進行詢答；委員預算提案於12月25日中午12時前截止收件】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-16","start_time":"2024-12-16T12:09:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-16T12:14:53+08:00","duration":345,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.193468750000001,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.446593750000002,"end":45.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.09971875,"end":78.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.15784375,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.80721875,"end":84.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.22784375,"end":91.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.76346875,"end":102.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.29346875,"end":125.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.23909375000001,"end":142.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.13096875000002,"end":151.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.24784375000002,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.09534375,"end":155.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.43534375000002,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.02596875,"end":168.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.32096875000002,"end":170.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.40096875,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.63284375,"end":172.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.38409375,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.73784375000002,"end":202.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.91909375,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.94409375,"end":206.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.10846875000001,"end":206.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.17596875,"end":210.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.64784375000002,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.49534375000002,"end":217.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.41471875000002,"end":225.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.08846875,"end":235.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.14221875,"end":233.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.74971875000003,"end":235.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.36971875,"end":235.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.87596875000003,"end":275.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.89284375000003,"end":235.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.43096875000003,"end":285.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.42096875000004,"end":303.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.98346875000004,"end":305.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.73846875000004,"end":318.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.25096875,"end":320.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.58846875,"end":320.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.96784375000004,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.68909375000004,"end":324.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.02659375,"end":343.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.04346875000005,"end":325.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.21221875000003,"end":326.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.10534375000003,"end":334.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.61909375000005,"end":340.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.85534375000003,"end":340.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.04096875000005,"end":341.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.43721875,"end":343.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.79159375,"end":344.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.48346875000004,"end":345.07409375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.09,"end":0.594,"text":"陳部長、楊局長"},{"start":9.943,"end":37.11,"text":"部長午安,機捷愛用戶忠誠客人來了謝謝這個本期的選區歸山尤其是林口台地這一塊基本上有非常多跟本期一樣會使用機捷作為通勤工具的這樣一個群眾那其實當初最早機場捷運在設計的時候當初只想做機場快線但因為實在跨越很多也希望這個一條捷運線的縱效能夠達到最高所以跟地方政府都做了一些協調增加了非常多的車站變成它具有"},{"start":37.91,"end":63.084,"text":"除了輸運國外旅客之外他也有通勤的一些功能好在當初做了這樣一個設計你看疫情這幾年基本上所有的這種機場快線都受到重大衝擊但還好集結有一定的大眾運輸的一些功能那因為後來推出1200很棒的一個政策讓這個存續跟財政狀況還能夠算是勉強的穩住陣腳那以至於地方現在其實有非常非常多增班的一個需求"},{"start":63.484,"end":75.961,"text":"那當初其實我們也很高興這個桃園公司、桃園市政府跟交通部還有我們盧秉哲委員的努力之下大家在徵購列車上面已經有很好的一個共識往前走好但現在來啦剛剛我們召委也有講啊現在碰到耗資問題啊欸這機場捷運當初是誰招標的?"},{"start":79.666,"end":101.712,"text":"誰興建誰招標應該是交通部嘛對不對很久很久以前交通部做規劃設計交通部來招標對不對我不瞞部長講本席過去一段時間很常說我是國產化的非常積極的倡議者那很多時候不管是別的業者甚至連我們自己的政府單位都會講說哎呀這個耗資系統的技術門檻非常高即便你這個合作拿你恐怕台車做做車廂那也就算了"},{"start":102.412,"end":103.813,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。��"},{"start":126.52,"end":138.794,"text":"現在這個狀況就是本來的英維斯公司因為被德商西門子收購然後後來舊的列車已經全部停產變成我新的列車只能用新的耗資系統新的耗資系統只能做季節延伸線沒有辦法開A1到A22這幾站的一個狀況那請問這狀況到底應該怎麼處理?"},{"start":143.208,"end":168.121,"text":"我們現在有什麼樣的條件去要求這個耗製廠商西門子去提出合理的改善方案嗎?有辦法嗎?部長請回答或鐵道局長一哥也好這個如果目前有辦法的話應該不會卡在這裡啦是啊大概是沒有辦法提出一個比較能夠快速改善的方案所以其實交通部這邊包含鐵道局也都支持說我們這個耗製提早重製的這個部分我們也都支持好提早重製大概花多少錢?"},{"start":169.343,"end":175.085,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":191.792,"end":202.763,"text":"它其實是相對來講沒有佔這麼多的財政資源那麼我現在想請問就是中央預計這個提供桃園市提供桃桀公司多少的一個支持多少支持對"},{"start":205.14,"end":225.567,"text":"我請局長好不好?可以好跟委員報告齁其實積極系統的重置費用我們曾經在對價方案裡面有做過估算齁現在只是大家對當年估算的這一個重置費用的這個這個當年估的數字跟現在實際執行有落差所以我想這個可能我們要再跟台灣市政府來做一些溝通跟協調"},{"start":226.147,"end":253.625,"text":"你現在有重置嘛有資產移轉嘛還有徵購列車嘛大概這三件事情嘛好那把耗資加進來其實也就是一併處理這一點我非常支持這個文哲昭委員在一塊一起討論那這個東西我本期的要求是絕對是要由中央來出面擔負更多的責任因為機場捷運它其實是跨域的嘛它也不是只是桃園市的問題今天如果是桃園市自己的捷運你講說地方要有更多的責任那也就算了但機場捷運是國家的門面它也跨越了台北市跟新北市嘛對不對你如果只是把這個東西轉嫁給地方政府造成"},{"start":254.105,"end":255.006,"text":" bicyclist 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那是不是請理事長非常感謝廖委員對於我們這個問題的一個垂詢我跟委員報告我們這個部分除了我們現職的員工同仁之外其實也有已經已離職的員工"},{"start":126.639,"end":134.245,"text":"大概是幾個?有找到幾個移職員工?具體的案例,我是不是有請人事處長來跟您做一個說明?謝謝。跟委員報告,我們這邊不方便去透露離職員工幾個個案,因為這個很容易被識別化。但是當初第一波網路問卷的時候,離職員工如果"},{"start":155.342,"end":160.288,"text":"網路問卷依照每個人他服務的單位不同只要他是現任跟前任的我就問說大概你們發出了幾份回收幾份"},{"start":172.691,"end":198.796,"text":"我們大概總總統因為有8個案子不太近相同回收率是25%所以你8案只訪談了大概96位那平均一案大概是12位那劉祖密叫下屬去自殺那剛剛我們陳昭之委員已經說也有即興員工已經自殺然後你們不認為這是霸凌那我覺得這個報告"},{"start":200.456,"end":216.565,"text":"是不是對往生者不禁又覺得在家屬的傷口上傻眼?你們真的覺得這是用心高規格嗎?你們真的有查清楚嗎?報告委員我們對於調查要務重但是也要務往那第一點第二點我們這個就是說那位同仁他的整個他的那個舊衣102年"},{"start":219.966,"end":221.026,"text":"我問一下,那我另外進一步問另外叫人家深蹲"},{"start":235.302,"end":250.457,"text":"做福利挺身甚至這次根本就已經上升到體罰的層次那怎麼可能不是霸凌呢?如果不是旁邊有人把它錄下來不然你被強迫深蹲跟福利挺身的時候你有辦法錄影自保、蒐證自保嗎?這個報告是不是要重啓重寫?"},{"start":251.678,"end":279.647,"text":"報告委員我做兩點說明第一個就是有關於福利及衛生我之前已經說是在2022年12月那剛好有一位新進同仁進來然後他做就是他跟大家自我介紹的時候說他會健身然後呢師長他說那你的福利及衛生很強喔那另外還有一位替代役他也說他們平常在做所以你一直說他說他很強他就叫他來做福利及衛生給大家看那這樣算不算"},{"start":281.107,"end":286.491,"text":"這樣不算霸凌嗎?他如果說我有一個員工說深蹲很強,那我問你啊,我助理剛剛也跟我說他蠻會深蹲的,他說我現在叫他深蹲放PowerPoint,你覺得這樣算不算霸凌?是不是也是利益良善?"},{"start":297.398,"end":315.234,"text":"按照我們過去的一個整個這個法院的一個對於這一個部分的那個判決其實對於所謂霸凌他就是要構成敵意環境而且是持續性的那我必須要說這個住信司長他這個行為他這個管理行為我認為我也覺得這個實在是很不當啦"},{"start":316.054,"end":323.758,"text":"對,你都已經覺得不當了,那這怎麼可能不是霸凌?但是並沒有構成,我們必須要尊重學者專家他們的整個組織調查。今天我請我的助理說,我覺得你邊深蹲邊放簡報你會瘦,他就也不好意思拒絕我,然後他就開始深蹲放簡報,我這樣會不會算霸凌?"},{"start":339.582,"end":342.905,"text":"市長你剛剛都已經說你也覺得不太妥了啊我是說就整個管理行為上面來說這一個我是覺得應該要所以我們也因為這樣市長我跟你說你也知道上次這個何佩珊部長在這裡他一樣的調查報告弄出來之後你覺得大家會不會覺得很荒謬就是說深蹲、伏地挺身都不算是霸凌"},{"start":365.006,"end":380.12,"text":"那我覺得我說真的啊聽到你們這樣的報告我想很多公務人員都會很緊張吧甚至我們的助理也很緊張吧如果今天一時興起他有一天說他剛去健身回來非常的非常的壯我就說那你做福利起身給大家看那大家會不會覺得很荒謬"},{"start":382.315,"end":383.495,"text":"市長因為我想這個很多人在檢舉我想就是"},{"start":412.006,"end":426.416,"text":"你們在報告之外真的沒有辦法讓大家很幸福你們是不是應該要再回去再去深究一下到底是不是有問題啊這看起來是很荒謬很離譜的事情喔那另外現在不只是這個霸凌案啊"},{"start":427.796,"end":439.062,"text":"連臺大醫院也傳出臺大知名不孕症權威我們就這裡叫代號C教授好了被6名住院醫生研究醫生申訴性騷擾性騷擾案經過性評調查後確認有性騷擾的事實請問部長這個事情你有瞭解嗎?我有媒體來報導來瞭解部長你認識這個C教授嗎?"},{"start":455.064,"end":456.005,"text":"你知道這個人嗎?你認不認識這個人?"},{"start":475.785,"end":494.49,"text":"因為在不...因為不同的科而且距離算是...所以你認識嗎?你知道嗎?全部台大的人我大概都認識啊。哦所以你就認識嘛對不對?你就認識這位C教授嘛對不對?你認識這位C教授那你原本有掌握到這件事嗎?我不知道。你完全不知道?"},{"start":495.56,"end":521.009,"text":"那你在這件事裡面可以有什麼角色?我們按規定按依法辦理啊依法辦理怎麼辦理?我問你C教授他搶先申請退休打算保住退休金自請離職喔然後讓我想到這其實就跟我們當初勞動部霸凌情深案件謝宜榮前分署長一樣他想要在召開考機會之前自行請辭以免被免職或撤職"},{"start":522.273,"end":548.128,"text":"然後當時這個部長也是站在何沛山部長也是站在質詢台上說毫不知情喔那我想要請問一下這個C教授也同樣想要搶先申請退休的狀況您剛剛說依法辦理那依照你們的法這個這個規章要怎麼處理才能夠避免這個首先就是由僱主用僱主他可以依照他的行為去用針對聖平三法的規定去處理"},{"start":549.088,"end":555.893,"text":"部長,你不覺得這事情其實很誇張嗎?一個婦產科的權威性騷他的女醫生,那他過去看過這麼多的女病患,發生這個事情,然後你認識這個人,你覺得可以怎麼處理更好?"},{"start":571.073,"end":594.778,"text":"我覺得依法辦理就最好。我們的性平三法過去在立法院也在上一屆很努力的工作。好部長我跟你說其實這件事情還有最後後面還有一個很嚴重的部分是也根據媒體報導這個C教授竟然敢找總統府的資政求救並試圖施壓台大那不只拒絕悔過還找高層人士來幫腔來押案來吃案"},{"start":595.711,"end":606.436,"text":"那這也不是空穴來風喔這個我想就在C教授9月自請離職後他竟然轉往另外一個由總統府執政開設的醫院任職喔"},{"start":608.311,"end":623.892,"text":"你知道這個事嗎?部長?從媒體上面有看到你從媒體上面知道那這個事情走漏風聲之後呢這個該醫院也偷偷的將這個C教授的照片和資料徹下看起來就是心虛或是確有歧視欲蓋彌彰的行為"},{"start":625.894,"end":653.003,"text":"那這次事件如果不是有什麼政壇大佬的媳婦啊或是臺大另外的婦產科的權威的媳婦啊企業家二代或是一些相對有一定政經地位的人都成為受害者喔加上臺大的這個校長陳文章能夠秉持他的專業良心拒絕關說我想這事也不了了之啊部長我覺得我們不應該每次都依賴這個運氣吧那我也想請問你知不知道這位總統府執政是誰"},{"start":654.486,"end":678.494,"text":"這位要幫他關說總統府執政是誰因為媒體沒有寫名字所以我不去猜測你不去猜測那你知不知道是誰媒體寫的是誰媒體寫的我我就說我不用不去猜測我是看他的行為對不對這樣子那我們想要知道這個總統府執政的話到底有沒有關說施壓這個調查我們應該怎麼做"},{"start":682.828,"end":685.57,"text":"這要由總統府來調查嗎?還是你們可以啟動調查?這個可能要從台灣大學那邊去了解他整個調查的過程當中所以會變成是教育部的責任嗎?會變成是教育部要叫台大去把它調查清楚嗎?還是衛福部可以有角色?"},{"start":707.298,"end":723.299,"text":"我們當然非常關心只要所有的工作醫療界的醫師醫藉福利界所有的工作同仁的尊嚴安全都跟我們當然都是我們關心的部長我想另外就進一步追問一下有一定的規範嘛"},{"start":724.36,"end":745.25,"text":"你知道他轉到另外一個婦產科的時候那個婦產科後來可能發現這個問題他就說他已經不讓這個醫師做內診了啦已經不讓這個醫師做內診那我想就是您是醫界的大佬也非常有經驗我想請問一下婦產科醫師不接觸內診的比例或是他不碰內診的比例可以有多高他比較屬這個專家在下面吧那我再問你對專家在下面那我再問你"},{"start":758.431,"end":764.314,"text":"對,國監署長,那你可以回答一下嗎?一個婦產科醫師...那我在進一步追問你今天他婦產科醫師有人來可能看到這個人的名字來看醫生那他不做內診換另外一個醫生幫他做內診出了醫療行為出了問題那誰要負責?"},{"start":784.562,"end":808.737,"text":"這個做檢查的就會檢查的一個報告嘛比如說我們做超音波檢查就超音波檢查的人報告以及他部長反正整件事情就是很荒謬啊我想要問你的事情是這件事情如果不是就這樣不了了之喔我想未來大家可能都要碰運氣喔看誰可以把這件事情爆出來所以我想要問你這個要怎麼樣在制度上做改善和預防"},{"start":810.563,"end":810.663,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":831.755,"end":860.183,"text":"如果台大醫院這個案例很簡單按照那個大院剛通過的性騷三法如果說是那個在台大醫院那邊如果說有任何一方是學生的話那就教育部那如果說其他的話那就性工法性工法那就勞動部啊所以衛福部都不管你們的事報告委那衛福部這邊我們現在目前就是有關於性騷三法三法裡面來如果不屬於性平不屬於校園不屬於職場就是我們主管的性騷防止法"},{"start":861.171,"end":889.552,"text":"所以他現在的狀況會是你們主管的嗎目前看起來如果說他對象是一般的病患有可能就是嘛對不對那你們現在可以做什麼他就進到申訴申訴調查署之後就會到縣市應該是臺北市政府的社會局他會做審議審議確定之後他就會做行政處罰那另外他的行為如果構成性騷25條就會進到司法調查我希望你們深入調查喔"},{"start":890.633,"end":918.915,"text":"這中間可能不只這六位是受害者這六位受害者他報出來只是真的是比較有辦法影響到大家關注度的我希望你們針對這個醫師好好的調查而且如果你說這個受害者這過程有碰到一般的病患但是又碰到有人施壓我也希望你們在施壓的那個人好好的調查有沒有這個狀況總統府執政到底是誰請你們給社會一個交代誰哪一個總統府執政這麼囂張"},{"start":920.799,"end":926.843,"text":"自己的人跑去這個性騷擾他還可以打電話想要押案、吃案太扯了吧然後聘用一個性騷擾的這個婦產科醫師然後跟他說我不讓他看內診很荒謬我們一定依法辦理好另外部長目前"},{"start":943.417,"end":959.532,"text":"醫美合法的管道有麻醉氾濫跟管制的問題非法的地下醫美問題也是很嚴重橋頭地檢署10月偵辦出高雄商辦內隱藏流動的地下醫美很多的藥品跟醫材都是大陸輸入的仿冒品"},{"start":960.713,"end":982.765,"text":"其實也顯示這一段時間地下醫美在臺灣也逐步形成了產業鏈其實根據從醫界的側面瞭解地下醫美市場可能佔整個醫美市場近61%數字讓人震驚那也就是說這些無照服務等等的問題那簡單來講就是部長這個部分要怎麼加強管制避免很多的病患可能"},{"start":984.042,"end":1009.002,"text":"跑去這些地方用到這些不合法的東西導致他們的權益受損。好,謝謝委員的擔心。如果以這樣的報導我們是不是令人憂心?那這也是有虧了我們十幾年來從我們蘇昭偉、我擔任醫師公會領導者的時候跟醫術師一直在對醫美方面做管理。"},{"start":1009.802,"end":1021.452,"text":"不管是,讓他們有一個規則,不然他們也是做到很沒尊嚴的,我們老實說啦。做到我怎麼很可憐,因為他們都醫師有時候...所以沒有,部長,因為時間有限,我還有很重要的要問你,所以你要怎麼做?"},{"start":1022.27,"end":1049.821,"text":"我們就...好,如果有違法的當然就要去查緝啊可是看起來你們執行很差欸我在下面再舉一個例子喔部長電子煙氾濫我們在過去很常常就是在質詢這件事情看起來衛福部沒有什麼管制的能力欸網路上隨便一搜就很多網站在那邊販售電子煙然後有六行民眾收集了300個違法的販售網站的名單希望你們去封禁"},{"start":1050.781,"end":1076.082,"text":"這個部分部長知道嗎?部長就是沒有啊你可能不了解處理狀況喔確實有民眾向Google檢舉但最終的結果就是你只要在Google台灣分站的搜尋上面搜尋電子煙下方會有警語喔但它警語完之後它連接到這300家的名單網頁而且這些網站目前都還沒有被停止解析所以都連得上"},{"start":1076.883,"end":1081.026,"text":"那你知道這就是因為你們不積極處理本來是禁止名單現在變成購買推薦清單欸"},{"start":1085.352,"end":1109.614,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心那為這個我們現在有跨部位的平台那其實我們也非常謝謝這個網路平台那我們有親國溝通所以做一層二層三層的一個屏蔽跟移除但看起來現在就是沒有啊而且他們還發展成LINE客服很多都是重複的ID喔不同的網站同一個LINE客服喔代表它已經是集團化的經營那你們要怎麼做啊"},{"start":1110.543,"end":1110.663,"text":"我們建議來處理,嘿。"},{"start":1133.784,"end":1140.552,"text":"請你們不要再這麼鬆散了 這個問題很嚴重好 謝謝主席我們一定會努力 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1435,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時59分）謝謝主席！有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長你好。今天準備的題目比較多，我想先問一下，再生醫療雙法在上個會期的6月19號公布通過，條文的最後有說相關的施行細則跟施行日期由衛福部與行政院定之，現在還差幾天就滿半年了，為何迄今還不公布細則跟日期？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這分兩個，一個是再生醫療法，一個是再生醫療製劑條例，再生醫療法由醫事司在處理，因為牽涉到滿多的內容，9個子辦法現在已經陸續完成草案，預計在114年第一季進行法規預告作業。"],["廖委員偉翔：114年第一季可以是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為之前我看到有媒體報導你的態度好像沒有太支持，希望不要因為這樣子拖延到。"],["邱部長泰源：我非常支持，但是我必須要支持一個福國利民的再生醫療法。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們就是明年的第一季會出來？"],["邱部長泰源：第一季會預告。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，到時候請不要拖延到，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，再跟委員報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來是有關霸凌案最新的調查報告，今天的專案報告內容中說霸凌案訪談了96名員工，請問都是訪問在職的嗎？如果有訪問已經離職或者是已經請調外單位的員工，應該不會只有96位吧！"],["邱部長泰源：是不是請呂次長說明？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝廖委員對於這個問題的垂詢，我跟委員報告，我們對這個部分除了現職員工同仁之外，其實也有已經離職的員工。"],["廖委員偉翔：大概有找到幾個已離職的員工？"],["呂次長建德：具體的案例，我是不是請人事處長來跟您做說明？謝謝。"],["李處長玉惠：跟委員報告，我們這邊不方便透露離職員工幾個個案，因為這個很容易被識別化，但是當初第一波網路問卷的時候，離職員工他如果因為……"],["廖委員偉翔：你說有網路問卷，那你們發出幾份？回收幾份？"],["李處長玉惠：網路問卷因為每個人服務的單位不同，只要他是現任跟前任的……"],["廖委員偉翔：我就問你們大概發出了幾份、回收幾份？"],["李處長玉惠：因為有8個案子不盡相同，所以回收率是25%。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你8案只訪談了大概96位，平均1案大概是12位，劉主秘叫下屬去自殺，剛剛我們陳昭姿委員說紀姓員工已經自殺，然後你們不認為這是霸凌，我覺得這個報告是不是對往生者不敬又在家屬的傷口上撒鹽？你們真的覺得這是用心高規格嗎？你們真的有查清楚嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們對於調查要毋縱但是也要毋枉，這是第一點。第二點是我們那位同仁他的就醫是從102年開始，可是劉姓這一位當時任組長是109年，所以整個時序上來說，實際上他並沒有完全的overlap。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我進一步問，叫人家深蹲做伏地挺身，這根本就已經上升到體罰的層次，怎麼可能不是霸凌呢？如果不是旁邊有人把他錄下來，不然你被強迫深蹲跟伏地挺身的時候有辦法錄影蒐證自保嗎？這個報告是不是要重啟重寫？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我做兩點說明。第一個就是有關於伏地挺身，我之前已經說過那是在2022年12月，剛好有位新進同仁進來跟大家自我介紹的時候說他會健身，然後司長就說那你的伏地挺身很強囉，另外還有一位替代役人員，他也說他們平常也會做，大家起鬨……"],["廖委員偉翔：你的意思是說他說他很強，他就叫他做伏地挺身給大家看？"],["呂次長建德：不是，就是PK一下。"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣不算霸凌嗎？如果有一個員工說他深蹲很強，我的助理剛剛也跟我說他滿會深蹲的，如果我現在叫他一邊深蹲一邊放PowerPoint，你覺得這樣算不算霸凌？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：這是不是也是立意良善？因為今天我助理說他BMI比較高。"],["呂次長建德：按照過去法院對於這個部分的判決，其實所謂霸凌就是要構成敵意環境而且是持續性的，那我必須要說這位祝姓司長他這個管理行為我也覺得實在是很不當啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你都已經覺得不當了，那這怎麼可能不是霸凌？"],["呂次長建德：這是管理行為不當，但是學者專家……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以沒有構成？"],["呂次長建德：我們必須尊重學者專家他們的事實調查。"],["廖委員偉翔：如果我今天對我的助理說我覺得你邊深蹲邊放簡報你會瘦，他也不好意思拒絕我，然後他就開始邊深蹲邊放簡報，我這樣會不會算霸凌？"],["呂次長建德：不是，報告委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：次長你剛剛都已經說你也覺得這樣不太妥啦！說了不太妥卻又沒事。"],["呂次長建德：不是，我是說就整個管理行為上面來說，我是覺得應該要……所以也因為這樣，我們就給他記了過。"],["廖委員偉翔：次長，我跟你說，你也知道上次何佩珊部長在這裡，一樣的調查報告弄出來之後，你認為大家會不會覺得很荒謬？就是說深蹲、伏地挺身都不算是霸凌，那我說真的啦，聽到你們這樣的報告，我想很多公務人員都會很緊張吧！甚至我們的助理也很緊張吧！如果今天一時興起，他有一天說他剛去健身回來，非常的壯，我就說那你做伏地挺身給大家看，大家會不會覺得很荒謬？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，所以我說我個人也認為這個祝姓司長，我覺得他這個管理行為真的很有可議之處，但是現在法院對於相關的判決，認為所謂職場霸凌要符合三個要件：第一個就是上對下，在職場裡面發生而且透過言語、非言語；第二個要構成所謂的敵意；第三個……"],["廖委員偉翔：這個很多人在檢舉喔！我想你們這份報告出來真的沒有辦法讓大家很信服，你們是不是應該要再回去深究一下到底是不是有問題啊！這看起來是很荒謬、很離譜的事情喔！","另外，現在不止是這個霸凌案，連臺大醫院也傳出臺大知名不孕症權威──我們就叫代號C教授好了──被6名住院醫生、研究醫生申訴性騷擾，性騷擾案經過性平調查後，確認有性騷擾的事實，請問部長，這個事情你有瞭解嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我有由媒體報導來瞭解。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長認識這個C教授嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為科別不太一樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你認不認識？"],["邱部長泰源：我知道這個人。"],["廖委員偉翔：你知道這個人，所以你認識他，知道C教授是誰。"],["邱部長泰源：因為媒體上面也沒寫，所以……"],["廖委員偉翔：你剛剛說你知道這個人，現在又說上面也沒寫，到底知不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：我大概知道這樣的……"],["廖委員偉翔：你知道這個人嗎？你認不認識這個人？"],["邱部長泰源：因為在不同的科而且距離算是……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你認識嘛！你知道嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：全部臺大的人我大概都認識。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你就認識嘛！對不對？你就是認識這位C教授嘛！對不對？你認識這位C教授，那你原本有掌握到這件事嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我不知道。"],["廖委員偉翔：你完全不知道？那你在這件事裡面可以有什麼角色？"],["邱部長泰源：我們按規定依法辦理。"],["廖委員偉翔：依法辦理是怎麼辦理？我問你C教授他搶先申請退休，打算保住退休金，自請離職，讓我想到這其實就跟當初勞動部霸凌輕生案件主角謝宜容前分署長一樣，他想要在召開考績會之前自行請辭，以免被免職或撤職，當時何佩珊部長也是站在質詢台上說毫不知情，我想要請問一下，這個C教授也同樣有想要搶先申請退休的狀況，你剛剛說依法辦理，那依照你們的法，這個規章要怎麼處理才能夠避免？"],["邱部長泰源：這個首先就是雇主可以依照他的行為針對性平三法的規定去處理，這個事情的雇主是臺大醫院，他的職位應該是屬於臺大的……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你不覺得這事情其實很誇張嗎？一個婦產科的權威性騷女醫生，那他過去看過這麼多的女病患，發生這個事情，然後你認識這個人，你覺得怎麼處理更好？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得依法辦理就是最好，我們的性平三法，在立法院上一屆很努力地把它通過了。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長我跟你說，其實這件事情最後面還有一個很嚴重的部分，也是根據媒體報導，這個C教授竟然敢找總統府資政求救並試圖施壓臺大，不止拒絕悔過，還找高層人士來幫腔、來壓案、來吃案，這也不是空穴來風，就在C教授9月自請離職後，他竟然轉往另外一個由總統府資政開設的醫院任職，部長知道這個事嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：由媒體上看到。"],["廖委員偉翔：從媒體上面知道的喔。這個事情走漏風聲之後，該醫院也偷偷的將C教授的照片和資料撤下，看起來就是心虛或是確有其事，也是欲蓋彌彰的行為。這次事件如果不是有政壇大佬的媳婦或是臺大另外的婦產科權威的媳婦、企業家二代或是一些相對有一定政經地位的人都成為受害者，加上臺大校長陳文章能夠秉持他的專業良心，拒絕關說，我想這事也會不了了之。部長，我覺得我們不應該每次都依賴運氣吧！我也想請問你知不知道這位總統府資政是誰？這位要幫他關說的總統府資政是誰？"],["邱部長泰源：因為媒體沒有寫名字，所以我不去猜測。"],["廖委員偉翔：你不去猜測？那你知不知道是誰？媒體寫的是誰？"],["邱部長泰源：對媒體寫的我就說我不去猜測，我是看他的行為對不對這樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我們想要知道這個總統府資政是誰、到底有沒有關說施壓的話，這個調查我們應該怎麼做？要由總統府來調查嗎？還是你們可以啟動調查？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能要從臺灣大學那邊去瞭解整個調查的過程當中……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以會變成是教育部的責任嗎？會變成是教育部要叫臺大去調查清楚嗎？還是衛福部可以有角色？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然非常關心，所有醫療界的醫師、醫界、福利界的所有工作同仁的尊嚴安全當然都是我們關心的，但是有一定的規範。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想進一步追問一下，他轉到另外一個婦產科的時候，那個婦產科後來可能發現了這個問題，就表示已經不讓這個醫師做內診了，您是醫界的大佬，也非常有經驗，我想請問一下，婦產科醫師不接觸內診的比例或是他不碰內診的比例可以有多高？"],["邱部長泰源：這方面的專家坐在下面。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，專家就坐在下面，那我再問你……"],["陳委員菁徽：可以問國健署啊！我們都要做抹片啊！每個都要做抹片啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：國健署署長可以回答一下嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果不做內診大概就不會去做抹片，我想他大概就是……"],["廖委員偉翔：那我再進一步追問，今天他是婦產科醫師，有人可能看到這個人的名字來看醫生，那他不做內診，換另外一個醫生幫他做內診，醫療行為若出了問題誰要負責？"],["邱部長泰源：做檢查的就會有一個檢查的報告嘛！譬如我們做超音波檢查就會有超音波檢查的報告，以及負責的醫師……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，反正這整件事就是很荒謬！如果這件事情就這樣不了了之，未來大家可能都要碰運氣，看誰可以把這件事情爆出來，因此我想請問你，這個該如何在制度上進行改善及預防？"],["邱部長泰源：在制度上就是要落實所有的規定，也希望真的有受到騷擾的一定要勇於……"],["廖委員偉翔：關於這位醫生的究責或法律行為，現在是怎麼處理？是你們可以去處理嗎？針對這個案件，現在衛福部可以做些什麼？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，臺大醫院這個案件很簡單，按照大院剛通過的性騷三法，如果在臺大醫院那邊有任何一方是學生的話，那就是由教育部處理；如果是其他的話，那就是性工法，也就是由勞動部處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以都不關你們衛福部的事？"],["呂次長建德：目前在衛福部這邊，關於性騷三法……"],["張司長秀鴛：如果不屬於性平、不屬於校園、不屬於職場，就是我們主管的性騷擾防治法。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在他的狀況會是你們主管的嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：目前看起來，如果對象是一般病患，那就有可能。"],["廖委員偉翔：就是嘛！對不對？你們現在可以做什麼？"],["張司長秀鴛：他就進入到申訴，在申訴調查屬實之後，應該就會送到臺北市政府社會局進行審議，在審議確定後就會給予行政處罰。另外，如果他的行為觸犯性騷擾防治法第二十五條，也會進入司法調查。"],["廖委員偉翔：我希望你們能深入調查，在這中間可能不只這6位是受害者，這6位受害者爆出來真的是比較有辦法影響到大家的關注度，所以我希望你們針對這位醫師好好的調查。此外，如你所言，如果在受害過程中有一般的病患，而且又碰到有人施壓，我也希望你們針對施壓的那個人好好調查，是否有這樣的狀況？總統府資政到底是誰，請你們給社會一個交代！哪一個總統府資政這麼囂張，自己人做了性騷擾的事，他還想打電話壓案、吃案，太扯了吧！甚至聘用了一個性騷擾的婦產科醫師，還說不讓他看內診，荒謬！"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們一定依法辦理。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，目前醫美合法的管道有麻醉氾濫及管制的問題，而且非法的地下醫美問題也是很嚴重，橋頭地檢署10月偵辦出高雄商辦內隱藏流動的地下醫美，很多藥品及醫材都是大陸輸入的仿冒品，其實也顯示這段期間地下醫美已經在臺灣逐步形成了產業鏈。根據醫界的側面了解，地下醫美市場可能占整個醫美市場近61%，數字令人感到震驚！針對這些無照服務等等的問題，簡單來講，部長，這個部分要如何加強管制，避免很多病患可能使用到這些不合法的東西，導致他們的權益受損？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，如果以這樣的報導來看，確實是令人憂心，也有虧於十幾年來蘇召委及我擔任醫師公會領導者時與醫事司一起致力於醫美方面的管理，讓他們能有一個規則，不然他們也是做得很沒尊嚴，老實講，做的也是很可憐，因為醫師……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，時間有限，我還有很重要的問題要問你，所以你要怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有違法，當然就要查緝啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：但是看起來你們的執行很差耶！我再舉一個例子，關於電子煙氾濫，過去我們也很常質詢這件事情，但是看起來衛福部沒有什麼管制的能力耶！網路上隨便一搜就有很多網站販售電子煙，甚至有熱心民眾蒐集了300個違法販售的網站名單，希望你們能夠封禁，關於這個部分，部長知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們強烈的要求，尤其是國健署一定要……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，沒有啊！你可能不了解處理的狀況喔！確實有民眾向Google檢舉，但最終的結果是只要在臺灣的Google分站上面搜尋電子煙，下方就會出現警語，但是在警語出現之後就會連結到300家的名單網頁耶！而且這些網站目前都還沒有被停止解析，所以都連得上，這就是因為你們不積極處理，本來是禁止名單，現在變成購買推薦清單耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我請吳署長來回應。"],["吳署長昭軍：非常謝謝委員的關心！為了這個，我們現在有一個跨部會的平台，而且我們也非常謝謝網路平台業者，經過溝通之後，做了一層、二層、三層的屏蔽及移除。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是看起來現在就是沒有啊！而且他們還發展成很多LINE客服都是重複的ID喔！不同的網站卻是同一個LINE客服喔！代表它已經是集團化的經營，你們要怎麼做啊？"],["吳署長昭軍：如果真的是違法，我們當然是依法開罰。"],["廖委員偉翔：你什麼時候會將這300家禁掉？"],["吳署長昭軍：請把資料給我們，我們再……"],["廖委員偉翔：人家都已經向你們檢舉過了，你們都沒有看嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們已經禁了蠻多了，是不是委員所說的300家？"],["廖委員偉翔：我們才上網查過，就是可以進去啊！"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會盡力處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：請你們不要再這麼鬆散了，這個問題很嚴重。謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定會努力，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員、謝謝部長。","接下來要處理臨時提案，共計7案，請一併宣讀。","一、","鑒於衛生福利部發生諸多職場霸凌事件，然而衛生福利部前後兩次記者會對外說明之職場霸凌調查結果，不但有未詳盡調查之問題，更有為特定主管層級官員袒護卸責之嫌。基於勞動部勞動力發展署針對謝宜容霸凌部屬案，亦有類似情形發生，勞動部重啟第二次完整調查，從第一份報告之「立意良善」、「無直接霸凌被害人」等離譜內容，變更為被害人確有受謝宜容霸凌之事實，顯見機關是否有盡全力、讓部屬可信任而願意坦言，攸關職場霸凌調查報告之事實認定是否有真實。","爰提案要求，衛生福利部應重啟職場霸凌調查，建立基層部屬願意坦言真話、保障其權益之調查方式與機制，針對遭檢舉涉嫌霸凌之各級主管如衛生福利部主秘劉玉娟、長期照顧司司長祝健芳等人，進行完整、詳細之調查，並公開完整調查報告。","提案人：陳昭姿　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","二、","鑒於衛生福利部發生諸多職場霸凌事件，然而衛生福利部前後兩次記者會對外說明之職場霸凌調查結果，不但有未詳盡調查之問題，更有為特定主管層級官員袒護卸責之嫌。","爰提案要求，衛生福利部應於本日下午五時前，將目前推諉卸責之調查報告提送至本院衛環委員會外，並應公開至衛生福利部網站供國人檢視（如涉及個人資料如姓名，可遮蔽或代號代稱）。","提案人：陳昭姿　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","三、","案由：有鑑於國家衛生研究院雖有設立兒童醫學及研究研究中心，然針對兒童醫療與健康的研究、轉譯臨床、照護評估等是有所不足的。兒童健康涉及多個學科，如醫學、生物學、公共衛生、社會學等。在醫院成立一個國家級兒童健康研究中心可以有效整合兒科、婦產科、公共衛生等專業，結合醫療、社會、心理等多元面向，進而形成綜合性的治療解決方案資源，集中力量進行兒童健康研究，並提供醫院有效治療或預防方案。尤其台灣面臨少子化的今天，兒童醫學的主要目的就是保護已出生的孩童，減少孩童的折損，因此兒童醫學最重要的方向應該是確保18歲以下的兒少族群健康或得到良好治療。爰提案要求政府選定具代表性兒童醫院，在其下成立兒童健康研究中心，作為兒童健康提升與醫療研究的平台，促進不同醫療機構和科研單位之間的合作與協同，整合研究與醫療實務，以顯著降低兒童患病的風險。","是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一","四、","案由：有鑑於一名49歲女性日前到台北市中山區某知名醫美診所進行醫美手術，於舒眠麻醉期間陷入昏迷，送醫不治，2018年時，一連串醫美診所無麻醉醫師在場的麻醉相關意外，間接或直接導致在2018年9月6日修訂「特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法」（後簡稱：特管法），對部分醫美整形手術的麻醉資格及規範做了明確的訂定。依目前除在執行「特管法」第25條有規定的8項手術，包括削骨、中臉部、全臉部拉皮、大量抽脂、腹部整形、鼻整形、義乳植入的乳房整形、全身拉皮手術時的麻醉資格有所規範限制外，其他的光電、醫美、或整形手術並沒有規範。","爰提案要求衛福部比照醫療體系，針對所有醫美涉及麻醉項目，納入規範。","是否有當？請公決案。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一","五、","主旨：","有鑑於衛福部本月12日公布8件霸凌案調查的結果中，竟確定了業務單位主官要求同仁「伏地挺身、深蹲」是鼓勵，沒有強迫；至於所屬職員遭主管開口「你們必須先自殺啊！你等人家來他殺」及「你要先自殺，一定要先表示你的誠意」等內容，甚至也被認定不構成霸凌，並因此盡失國人對衛福部的認同。爰此，考量衛福部把此等荒謬的內部管理標準合理化後，會讓往後的施政及業務背後，極有可能仍會有數不盡遭霸凌的「人血饅頭」存在，如此實在不妥。是以，決議衛福部應限期於一周內完成重啟調查並對外公開，藉此挽救殆盡之公信力。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　蘇清泉","六、","主旨：","有鑑於少子化國安危機加劇惡化，譬如新生兒數在2022年農曆虎年有13萬8,986人，而今年龍年累積到11月的新生兒則是12萬2,360人，預估今年僅會有13.4萬人，形成龍年誕生的新生兒比虎年還少情形。爰此，考量國家財政上受胎兒生產數下降，將對國庫有減少健保支出的連帶影響，因此政府應該考量損益關係，再挹注並補足相當經費加大辦理對孕婦的經濟支持措施。是以，特決議衛福部應限期辦理含產檢、計程車、嬰兒用品和孕婦用品在內之「早期、中期及晚期懷孕券補助政策」研議作業，且當中應有延用至產後一年的規劃，俟後限期於二個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　蘇清泉","七、","案由：","有鑑於我國器官捐贈移植等候人數中，乃以腎臟8,000多名病患最多，且等候移植過程更連帶影響其與家屬生活甚深。是以，中華民國多囊腎腎友協會更已正式決議，支持推動主管機關就腎臟活體捐贈資格，應自目前五親等以內血親或配偶，放寬參照肝臟活體捐贈五親等姻親之規範。是以，考量衛福部應積極參採此等意見，並促進患者能速回歸正常人生，爰要求衛福部限期於一個月內啟動研議及修正作業，俟後於三個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　黃健豪　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一"],["主席：請問行政單位對第1案有沒有意見？"],["呂次長建德：主席以及各位委員，大家好。衛福部對於這個臨時提案有關於霸凌的部分有三點說明：第一個，我們必須要說提案文字還是有部分斷章取義的問題，譬如剛剛提到自殺、他殺等等，我們都已經還原當時的脈絡，因此，基本上恐怕還是不宜。第二個，對於判斷到底是否為霸凌，我們都是基於事證及相關的訪談，剛剛我們也說過已經訪談了96位同仁。在這個過程當中，他們其實也都希望能夠匿名，如果一旦公布的話，可能會被行為人按圖索驥，基於保護同仁及對於調查的信任，我們認為恐怕還是不宜。第三個，除非有非常有利的新事實、新證據，否則，在目前已做過非常詳細的調查以及訪談之後所獲得的結論，基本上，我們還是建議要尊重專業調查委員會的調查，但是我們可以在一週內就整個相關的程序在內部進行相關的檢討。以上4點向會上說明，謝謝。"],["主席：陳委員，你要表達嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：有啊！一定要的，謝謝主席。呂次長，早上我沒有對你拍桌子，你竟然說疑似輕生的案子是操作，不樂見刻意的操作！我可是與家屬聯繫過了，基本上，當時家屬是要投訴的，但因為他們覺得不可能有效、不可能！但是現在他們覺得有人要替他們討公道了，因此，基本上先生與3個孩子都希望能夠有機會幫媽媽、幫妻子討公道。呂次，剛剛你提到102年的部分，如果她有所謂憂鬱症的症狀，為什麼她的主管還繼續在職場霸凌她，讓她最後做了一個不可逆的痛苦決定？你這次有沒有去調查她旁邊的同事們？有沒有調查聽到「劉玉娟」就會顫抖的那位同事？","在你們的第一次報告之後，我丟出錄音帶，拼命叫同事去輕生、自殺，你還要幫她找全部的影帶出來。她平常講的話很多，每次都是叫人家去輕生、自殺，你是聽當事人解釋嗎？呂次，關於你剛剛講的102年那個東西，你知道是誰調查的嗎？就是現在的當事人調查的、就是劉玉娟組長與她的心腹賴科長調查後做的報告，現在你用當事人做的報告來告訴我，你這個講法等於是二次傷害啊！我正在邀請，家屬準備帶她朋友來我的辦公室拜訪，說不定我會召開記者會啊！在你第一次報告時，我丟出那個錄音帶，還要經檢舉人同意，你們說錄音帶可能會斷章取義，就聽得很清楚啊！拼命叫她輕生、輕生啊！第二次出來之後……"],["呂次長建德：我可以做一個說明嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：你最好是好好的說明，不要避重就輕，不然我覺得是浪費時間。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，三個重點：第一個，根據我們的了解，這位同仁是102年開始有相關的就診紀錄，如果委員有需要的話，我們可以把它……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們這次的調查有訪談她的家屬嗎？有訪談她當時的同事嗎？你怎麼調查的？"],["呂次長建德：這個部分是不是請……"],["陳委員昭姿：對啊！你就是拿她當時的報告啊！那個報告就是有問題啊！到今天這個霸凌案出現之後，才會有這麼多人向我投訴啊！對於臺北業務組的人而言，劉玉娟的上任是一個噩夢啊！"],["呂次長建德：這個部分是不是請健保署來……"],["陳委員昭姿：你調查了誰？你告訴我，你調查了誰？"],["李處長玉惠：先向委員做個報告，主秘這個案子成立的時候，因為是屬於業務組，所以我們當初問卷的部分是健保署的業務組及我們的社保司，至於業務組這個範圍是不是請健保署先做個說明？謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：那個時候她還沒到健保署，她是去年才到健保署。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想這是兩件事，所以要將它分開來討論。第一個，你提到的是109年6月可能……"],["陳委員昭姿：輕生了。"],["邱部長泰源：關於她在102年至109年的整個過程，其實大家可以來了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：大家是誰？為什麼她的家屬、同事認為不是這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，如果……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為她原本有憂鬱症，所以你認為就可以加以霸凌嗎？讓她做出這樣的最後決定嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不是、不是，其實她中間一直在休假，這個部分是一件事情，我們可以來檢討。第二件事情……"],["陳委員昭姿：要不是你們的調查過程那麼不公平、那麼沒有真相，這個是最不得已的案例。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們是調查當時劉組長的時候，她是在109年3月就任，這位同仁其實前面都在請假，如果要檢討的話，是不是應該要檢討102年到109年當中，她的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["陳委員昭姿：你要好好處理這個案子，當初她擔任組長的時候有將近10個科長降調、轉職、退休。"],["邱部長泰源：從102年到109年，如果家屬真的是覺得有疑慮，我們會好好地針對這個做檢討。至於職場霸凌這個部分，又是後面發展的一些事情，我們另外再來調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：霸凌有各種形式，從前面開始啊！"],["邱部長泰源：因為overlap可能只有2、3個月，但是在這中間……"],["陳委員昭姿：你重啟調查、重啟調查！"],["邱部長泰源：不是，這個與這個的關係……"],["陳委員昭姿：109年是現在的當事人所做的調查報告，而且現在的對象還是同一個人，你把她的報告拿來當作你的報告嗎？你有重新去調查嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：原則上，我們應該是沒有調查102年這個部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：你沒有去調查，我知道你沒有去調查嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：因為沒有調查到102年的部分，所以這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：人家隱忍很久，現在有人願意幫助他們討公道了。"],["邱部長泰源：我認為這是一個新的事證，我們可以來做調查，OK。"],["陳委員昭姿：在第一次報告的時候，我給你新的事證就是錄音帶，但是你們忽視它啊！甚至說那個錄音帶是斷章取義啊！"],["邱部長泰源：因為那個錄音帶與這位同仁沒有關係啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：第二次報告的時候，我只好再丟啊！再丟一個訊息啊！再丟訃聞給你看啊！"],["邱部長泰源：對，你這個部分就是一個新的事證，從102年到109年。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是只有她一個人喔！那個環境有很多人喔！"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，關於這個部分，我們會來調查，從102年到109年到底發生了什麼事。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就是重啟調查嘛！那就是重啟調查嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：但是對於已經調查過的部分，也已經有……"],["陳委員昭姿：剛剛回答說主秘只能限閱，但是她還在主秘的位置上，未來可以看到很多資料耶！她可以秋後算帳耶！"],["邱部長泰源：只要有相關的都不會被看到，剛剛人事處處長已經講得很……"],["陳委員昭姿：重點是她的職位，你要保障她的職位，是嗎？她的職位是一人之下、萬人之上。"],["邱部長泰源：說實在的，我到衛福部之後與誰都沒有關係，我們都是非常公平的對待所有人。"],["陳委員昭姿：那天我叫她上來，你馬上就告訴我，她很認真，但認真與霸凌有什麼關係？"],["邱部長泰源：不是，因為你第一次提的時候，上面寫的是年輕、很有潛力，但是她不年輕了……"],["陳委員昭姿：那是另外一個檢舉案，但是我已經收到主秘的……"],["邱部長泰源：所以那個時候那些字的確不是在形容她，只是這樣子而已啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：那天不是形容她，但是對於主秘有主秘的檢舉者，所以我後來才請她上來。"],["邱部長泰源：對，後來也列入調查了。"],["主席：好啦！不要講了。"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，我就是2案都要，對於你現在的報告，我要看到內容，而且你要重啟調查，不然變成是我在調查，我幫你調查喔！"],["邱部長泰源：當然我們會調查。"],["主席：部長，第1案與第2案就先保留，協調看看要怎麼寫。","處理第3案，行政單位有沒有意見？應該還好吧？"],["劉司長越萍：在委員的提案文字加上「研議」，也就是「爰提案要求政府研議選定具代表性兒童醫院」，因為這個需要與5家兒童醫院做一個討論，所以建議在此新增2個字，以上。"],["主席：好，同意，第3案就這樣修改通過。","第4案。"],["劉司長越萍：第4案也是修改為「研議納入規範」，因為這個地方要做一些相對上的討論，全部納入的時候，我們覺得還是在過去的規定中重新檢討如何落實才是重點，所以建議新增「研議」2個字，也就是「研議納入規範」。"],["主席：「針對所有醫美涉及麻醉項目，研議納入規範。」好，通過。","第5案。","請陳菁徽。"],["陳委員菁徽：關於第5案，基本上，我的意思與第1案、第2案是差不多的。剛剛所有質詢的委員幾乎沒有人對這份報告信服，內容中實際有文字大概是4頁，但關於調查的內容卻不到1頁，而且大家對於最後送出來的處分也是一頭霧水，完全不知道發生什麼事，對於這些中階主管、公務員們為什麼被調職也是一無所知，反而是接獲許多陳情的這些司長們記過，甚至說沒有霸凌的事實、又說是管理不當。因此，我覺得我的第5案就與第1案、第2案一起保留。"],["主席：第5案與第1案、第2案一起保留。","第6案。"],["吳署長昭軍：遵照辦理。"],["主席：第6案OK嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：通過。","第7案。"],["劉司長越萍：第7案的部分，是否容許我們修改為「啟動研議作業」？基本上，因為肝臟有再生能力，放寬之後會產生的倫理疑慮比較小，但一個人只有2顆腎臟，在這樣的狀況下，放寬姻親這個部分，可能會有交易、假結婚等倫理上的考量。因此，研議其實是可以啟動……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們要「啟動研議」，把「修正作業」刪除。"],["劉司長越萍：對，研議作業這邊……"],["陳委員菁徽：當初我之所以會提，實際上也是因為這些病友團體的陳情，他們有這個需求，因為很年輕嘛！二、三十歲卻要洗腎一輩子，如果能夠有腎臟移植的話，他們可以與一般人一樣出國、旅遊，不然他們的人生會有六、七十年都要洗腎。"],["劉司長越萍：在器捐中心這邊其實也有收到相同協會的來文，我們本來就預備要作一些溝通。因為肝臟具有再生能力，這一塊在規範上就能稍微比較放寬，姻親這部分的倫理考量比較少。至於腎臟的部分，如同我剛剛所講的，因為一個人只有2顆腎臟，如果捐贈一顆之後，自己只剩下一顆，在這樣的狀況下，過去血親的限制因為限縮比較小，在倫理上的考量比較小，但今天的提案要從血親開放到姻親的部分，後面可能需要一些配套措施的考量，因此，在這邊……"],["陳委員菁徽：為什麼會有這樣的陳情，也是因為他們有實際上的需求，我覺得可以改成一個月內研議，也可以參考世界各國的標準，所以把「修正作業」刪除。"],["劉司長越萍：謝謝。"],["主席：就是「一個月內啟動研議作業」，把「及修正」拿掉，通過。","現在我們休息20分鐘，順便討論前面3個提案，吃便當啦！"],["呂次長建德：保留的部分，請處長再說明。"],["李處長玉惠：報告委員會，第1、2、5案關於我們的調查報告要不要公布的部分，我以一個議事單位的立場在此稍作說明。第一個，當初這個霸凌案件會不會成立，我們的認定是根據提供的事證，無論是媒體或委員或部長，第一個是事證、第二個是同仁的約談。關於同仁的約談，剛剛委員也看到了，大概平均每個當事人都有接近10人次的約談，而且是非常深度的約談。如果我今天將調查報告公布出來，因為當初同仁接受約談是希望能夠匿名，也因為是匿名，所以他講的案件是非常的深入，包括是在什麼樣的情境下遭受到一些管理的行為，再加上他目前的身心狀況是怎麼樣。即使我再怎麼樣去匿名化，其實按圖索驥都可以找出蛛絲馬跡，現有的同仁還是會受到一些驚恐，因此，我們認為這些深度的調查報告確實是不宜公布，而且我們也怕一旦公布……"],["陳委員昭姿：比照勞動部的規格就可以了，其實勞動部的第一份報告也上去了，明明有那麼多事實，但它的解讀都是不相關，即使是如此，但它還是把完整的資料都送上去，在第二次重啟後，整個判斷就完全不一樣，從不相關變成直接相關。"],["李處長玉惠：我只是要表達同仁在約談過程中確實有這樣的心聲，其實這次的調查報告就有很多是根據同仁的約談，而且現在大部分的同仁都還在部裡面服務，我先做以上說明，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：比照勞動部的規格就可以了。主席，我們要投票、要表決。名字都可以遮起來，比照勞動部的規格，去個資啊！這份報告只有A4的新聞稿紙，根本是業務報告啊！今天根本不是調查結果報告，而是業務報告啊！"],["呂次長建德：報告召委及委員，誠如剛剛處長所言，這個真的是基於同仁信賴我們的調查機制才願意站出來，我們也非常珍視這樣的信任，相信委員也與我們一樣，希望能夠保護同仁，一定都是這樣的心理。整個過程好不容易大家都已經有這樣的信賴，如果因為這樣而中斷了彼此的信任，老實說，我們的96位……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們不給看，卻又說都沒事、都沒事，但我一直質疑、一直提出新事證給你。"],["呂次長建德：剛剛部長也講了，委員一開始提到另外的那個部分……"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼你不在這次就做好呢？把個資蓋掉，你不會不懂吧？"],["呂次長建德：No、No、No，報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：把個資蓋掉，到底這個人做了什麼事、講了什麼話……"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這不只是把個資蓋掉的問題而已，其中還牽涉到目前任職於哪個單位等等，確實是很容易被人家按圖索驥。"],["陳委員昭姿：反正你要一手遮天、你要一手遮天啊！"],["呂次長建德：我們不希望透過這樣的結果讓同仁也再受到二次傷害。"],["陳委員昭姿：剛剛你說輕生事件是不樂見的操作，這句話就傷害了死者的家屬，你就是二度傷害了他們！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：他是與我有聯繫的，如果哪天我把他帶到你的面前呢？"],["呂次長建德：如果有新事實、新證據的話……"],["陳委員昭姿：那不是新事實，而是已經發生的事。"],["呂次長建德：就這個部分而言，我們當然可以……但是我必須要強調……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們要求表決、我們要表決。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我真的要強調一點，同仁們願意站出來，老實說，我身為主席，對於同仁也有保護的義務啦！他們都希望匿名後勇敢站出來，我覺得……"],["陳委員昭姿：我有說要公開名字嗎？"],["呂次長建德：剛剛我已經說過了，不僅僅只有……"],["陳委員昭姿：到底有什麼難言之隱？"],["呂次長建德：這沒有什麼……"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，我們要求表決、表決，比照勞動部規格、比照勞動部規格。"],["李處長玉惠：委員，我也是個公務員，必須要先說一下。因為同仁反彈，真的講得很深入，他把怎麼樣處理的行為都……"],["陳委員昭姿：那麼嚴重，結果你們的判決這麼輕，最後你們處理的結果很輕啊！輕輕帶過，都沒事啊！"],["李處長玉惠：沒有，綜整所有必要的……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們越講就越離譜了！那麼深入，難怪有很多不能講的，最後你們的調查結果……"],["呂次長建德：真的要勿縱，但是也要勿枉，我覺得這個前提真的是要把握住。"],["陳委員昭姿：表決、表決。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我擔任過立委，也知道立委都有義務了解內情，而且大家都是德高望重，當然也會知所輕重，這個東西……"],["陳委員昭姿：真相只敢丟給立委，怎麼辦？還是在野黨的立委！"],["邱部長泰源：我們把識別化盡量識別得好一點，再送交給委員，委員再來判斷適不適合，因為大幅公告可能真的會有很多可以按圖索驥的部分，我也相信委員能夠判斷你要做的。"],["王委員育敏：保護被霸凌者。"],["邱部長泰源：對，保護被霸凌者，因此我建議，如果你們看了還不滿意，那麼下次再來要求，我們也都樂意接受。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你的意思是你們先處理一下，再將資料提供給我們看，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我建議就送到每一位委員的辦公室。"],["呂次長建德：我們就親持……"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把資料送到委員的辦公室，最好是我們再親自過去報告，如果你們有什麼疑問就可以當場討論。我覺得就在每位委員的辦公室先處理，這樣你們就能看到所有的詳情，但是你們就會判斷一旦公布出去可能會害到受訪者，這樣我們就會更加謹慎。如果第二階段之後，你們還是覺得需要怎麼樣的話，我們再來做下一步都沒關係，好不好？至於102年到109年的那件事情，我們可以再進行調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：涉及人命的事真的要慎重。"],["邱部長泰源：那就好好的立案調查，好不好？"],["陳委員昭姿：家屬在期待。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，家屬只要有期待……"],["陳委員昭姿：家屬不敢找你們、只敢找我們。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係！我也是身為醫療人員，一定是關心弱勢或受害者，我的心與你是一樣的，這個部分就另外重啟調查，好不好？"],["陳委員昭姿：重啟調查是針對在臺北業務組的那段期間。"],["邱部長泰源：102年到109年……"],["陳委員昭姿：有多少離職的、降調的，那些也都是。"],["邱部長泰源：澈底調查，都沒關係。如果家屬需要這樣的調查才能心安，我們也會做到。這是102年到109年的過程，紀員在109年離世之前其實一直都在請假，因為她的長官也要她休假、不要上班，現在所講的都是我的了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：這些一面之詞啦！"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，我們會進行調查。另外，我們將調查報告去識別化之後，3天之後就開始到個別委員的辦公室報告，再由你們判斷要不要走下一步，或是覺得這樣的處罰、這樣的處理就已經得當了，我認為這樣做才有辦法保護大家。況且，說實在的，就像我高中三年期間只有一次因為有人到我家買東西而慢了10分鐘出門，結果全勤獎就沒有了，這件事在我的一生中都覺得相當遺憾！同樣的，做了三十幾年的公務員被記申誡，一生為了國家而努力，所以我們也應該要勿縱勿枉，況且記過對於努力的公務員而言，已經是非常大的紀錄、而且是終生的紀錄，即使後面再記功、再怎麼樣，他就是曾經被記過、他就是曾經被記申誡。因此我們要好好思考怎麼樣做最適當，讓基層到主管的每一位同仁都能好好為國做事。以上是我的建議，不知道各位委員能不能接受？"],["陳委員昭姿：我們先按照部長所講的方式進行。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定落實。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果不滿意的話，我們還是要提案。"],["邱部長泰源：可以、可以，一定要說明到大家滿意。"],["呂次長建德：按照部長的指示，由同仁親持去識別化的報告，到有提案的委員辦公室進行報告，這樣好嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：這就是我們認為不足的部分，因為民代的證據永遠比你們多，因為他們不敢、他們害怕秋後算帳。"],["邱部長泰源：如果那些證據超越我們調查的內容就算是新事證，我們再加進調查，好不好？我們這個調查小組還是存在啊！我們會繼續調查，調查到水落石出。說實在的，我想大家都是很願意接受考驗，因為大家都是為國家打拼嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，為了慎重起見，你們自己內部還是再重啟調查一次吧！"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，其實剛剛劉建國委員也對這件事情質詢非常久，好像不只是有提案的委員而已吧！"],["邱部長泰源：因為大家急著要看報告，所以幾天之內先將報告送給大家看，如果覺得還是不滿意，到時候就再走下一步，好不好？不然的話……"],["王委員育敏：不是只有提案的委員而已。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係！所有衛環的委員都可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為剛剛有太多人問了。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，我想無論是哪一黨的委員應該都很關心，所以我們一定會去說明，直到各位認為新的事證是無法cover的，那我們再來……"],["林委員月琴：部長，我先確認一下，剛剛的決議是要給全部衛環的委員，或是給非衛環的……"],["邱部長泰源：全部衛環的委員。"],["林委員月琴：也要再確定，因為你們剛剛提到調查時很多公務體系的人都如驚弓之鳥，如果要有密件出來的話，也請大家恪遵密件不得外流。因為我以前也擔任過調查委員，當他們願意站出來舉報、說明的時候，同時他們也是承擔了很大的心理壓力，如果你們只是去了個資，但是有些脈絡沒辦法去掉的話，搞不好我們又會製造了另外一場傷害，以上。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們就親自到委員辦公室，就像我擔任立委員時也有很多這類的狀況，去個資之後我們再去看，說實在的，連copy都不行，我們只能記在腦海裡。這件事就先這樣處理，如果大家認為有需要走第二步，或是整個證據超過我們cover的範圍，我們就會再繼續調查，好不好？"],["主席：他們的調查報告有好幾十頁，我們是要求交給提案委員，不要交給助理，萬一被助理洩漏出去，恐怕會對這些公務人員造成二次傷害。","人事處長建議修改如下：爰為建立基層部屬願意坦言真話、保障其權益之調查方式與機制，針對遭檢舉涉嫌霸凌之各級主管如二位司長等人，請衛福部去識別化後，一週內親持調查報告向提案委員報告說明。三個案子都一樣。此外，也要向全部的衛環委員逐一報告。"],["陳委員瑩：一個禮拜夠嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["主席：你要說好喔！"],["邱部長泰源：應該是在3天之內就開始了嘛！"],["王委員育敏：委員自己要給出時間，我覺得是互相的。"],["主席：一週應該是可以啦！15位喔！"],["李處長玉惠：二週好嗎？"],["主席：好。"],["李處長玉惠：二週是要我們全部報告完畢嗎？"],["主席：對，沒錯。好啦！那就是二週內親持調查報告向衛環委員會的委員報告。"],["陳委員瑩：要本人。"],["主席：要本人，不要給助理，這樣不好。"],["邱部長泰源：拜託委員盡量挪出時間給我們。"],["主席：陳菁徽，可以嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以。"],["主席：陳昭姿委員，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：可以。"],["主席：這三個案就照這樣處理，改一下喔！","臨時提案全部處理完畢，我們現在休息15分鐘，先吃飯，之後再接續進行質詢。","休息（12時51分）","繼續開會（13時9分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","我們節省時間，本委員會的要縮短時間啦！請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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陽泉發言 邀請部長好 請部長"},{"start":17.219,"end":37.279,"text":"部長好,本席要跟你討論外送平台這個議題,因為這個牽扯到14多萬將近15萬的外送員的一個權益,也包括了十幾萬的店家的一個權益,跟包括了全台灣所有消費者的一個權益。"},{"start":39,"end":61.354,"text":"因為原本在這個月12月19號公平會就已經說要發佈準博的答案但是突然間又因為這個不知道什麼原因但是有人高度質疑是因為現在公平會的委員要做審議人事案來卡這個外送平台"},{"start":61.934,"end":83.922,"text":"的一個合併案的一個準博所以呢宣布目前是宣布要到明年的3月份以前才會宣布準博的答案那這個讓社會大眾很嘩然所以本期要請教勞動部在10月份的時候10月16他已經正式明確告訴社會大眾說他是反對合併的"},{"start":85.222,"end":90.305,"text":" bicyclone 公聘會必須橫向的包括交通部跟勞動部都是必要的機關。你的立場呢?這樣的背景,兩個可以合併嗎?"},{"start":110.515,"end":126.049,"text":"你的立場來交通部的立場當然合併不合併齁這個是公平會他們去判斷對就最後但是各自有各自的立場是但對交通部來講我們需要面對的課題其實是整個運費的透明化對外送平台平台費"},{"start":127.151,"end":142.707,"text":"無論是合併或不合併它的外送的運費如果能夠透明化的話我想可以減少很多消費者的疑慮跟外送員的疑慮那所以也謝謝你部長之前你也討論過我們也要求也就是在整個其他國家都有"},{"start":143.268,"end":161.254,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":161.937,"end":184.029,"text":"報告委員目前我們是針對運費的部分在做討論那我們前一陣子也有在找消費者端然後外送業者然後地方政府然後我們交通部的同仁大家一起來開會大家各方面一起來討論那包含這個外送的這個工會也一起來參加也就是說外送員的工會"},{"start":184.409,"end":207.374,"text":"有了進度開始在討論這個我們必須要積極因為不管公平會什麼時候給出這個這個準博的答案但是我們對於將近15萬的外送員以及十幾萬的這些店家未來應該會再增加消費者的生活是必要的所以在這樣三方都需求"},{"start":208.374,"end":212.117,"text":"單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":238.12,"end":256.792,"text":"多元的聲音聽取當然很重要但是你自己也要有一個定一個時間點也不能完全沒有時間點啊你預估大概什麼時候?多久時間?上一次預告完之後那大概還有一些意見那公共總局陳局長那邊已經親自主持過這一個兩次會議"},{"start":258.513,"end":267.549,"text":"本件了解請告訴我時間你們大概預告後大家再討論多聽多方的意見之後你們預估多久時間"},{"start":268.439,"end":298.439,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":299.48,"end":300.741,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":325.077,"end":327.359,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":340.529,"end":346.195,"text":"我們也在做那請問因為之前本席也跟你討論過這個議題那我們似乎在整個學區的這個周圍數限30的這個工程可以說是還是這個這個成效很低"},{"start":358.967,"end":384.207,"text":"現在呢?現在在第一段時間有加油了嗎?我們一直都在推動啦那我覺得用路人的習慣可能還沒有習慣我們確實是有這個30公里的這個限制但是就是說開到學區附近的駕駛人有沒有看到那個牌子那怎麼辦呢?你竟然設一個牌子是讓人家看不到等於是沒有設啊我們當然有設啦你有設讓人家看不到啊你沒有成效啊你要怎麼改呢?"},{"start":384.807,"end":391.554,"text":"是 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11:59:10","影片長度":"00:12:34","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算。\n五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算。\n【僅進行詢答；委員預算提案於12月25日中午12時前截止收件】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-16","start_time":"2024-12-16T11:46:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-16T11:59:10+08:00","duration":754,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.46096875,"end":7.152218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.484718750000003,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.28159375,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.33221875,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.445968750000002,"end":18.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.25159375,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.36909375,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.38971875,"end":48.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.17096875,"end":64.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.05034375000001,"end":85.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.73909375000001,"end":94.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.56471875000001,"end":97.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.17596875000001,"end":99.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.36971875,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.24721875,"end":102.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.46221875,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.66471875,"end":102.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.14971875,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.11096875000001,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.76471875,"end":114.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.55721875,"end":119.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.99534375,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.07534375,"end":122.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.10471875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.49284375,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.03284375000001,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.97721875000002,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.38534375,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.16534375,"end":140.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.97534375,"end":141.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.64596875,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.03909375,"end":164.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.47784375,"end":167.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.96659375000002,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.46346875,"end":179.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.47159375,"end":179.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.18846875,"end":181.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.90971875000002,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.70284375,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.93471875,"end":218.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.86596875,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.90346875,"end":223.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.55721875,"end":229.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.56034375000002,"end":251.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.29534375000003,"end":252.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.59471875000003,"end":254.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.11346875,"end":255.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.55221875,"end":257.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.48846875000004,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.36159375,"end":262.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.80846875000003,"end":264.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.47471875,"end":268.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.30971875,"end":268.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.06909375000004,"end":270.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.87471875,"end":271.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.96721875000003,"end":283.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.29034375000003,"end":284.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.01596875,"end":285.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.82159375000003,"end":287.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.32346875,"end":302.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.65034375000005,"end":303.29159375},{"speak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有一班是根本擠不上去"},{"start":86.125,"end":113.577,"text":"我們政人待會就要講話了我們那個劉委員每天來立法院是我們的集結的愛用戶那經常擠不上去待會他會來說那現在這個狀況你不解決不行來我們聽一下找到的這個部分那就就沒問題了就是這個新的車還是裝兩套到了我們中壢再西門子再裝一套兩套系統就這樣的湊合的過河"},{"start":115.818,"end":133.96,"text":"另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用林縣不到啦但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題"},{"start":135.782,"end":163.794,"text":"况現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩可能就是要全線做一個接行沒有訊號系統啊沒有辦法停啊如果可以更新系統他們一定新設站可以解決這個部分因為我認為是行政院級的一個要統合的一個問題是不是能拜託我們卓院長跟我們的部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向不然都來不及可以嗎?"},{"start":164.774,"end":165.254,"text":"現在一個情況是舊的系統"},{"start":184.345,"end":186.187,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":207.083,"end":213.806,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":230.661,"end":232.222,"text":"五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度"},{"start":258.553,"end":259.674,"text":"五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度"},{"start":286.877,"end":290.459,"text":"adequate to the current situation in Taiwan."},{"start":312.312,"end":312.913,"text":" bicyclist 卓院長"},{"start":324.11,"end":329.394,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。adequate to the current system."},{"start":350.512,"end":374.193,"text":"目前地方政府解決進度地方政府比較希望能夠提早重置整個耗資系統要提早重置因為你要買新的車那舊的這個耗資大概也買不到了那所以希望提早重置那在交通部的立場其實我們是支持提早重置這個部分我們是支持的那但是要由桃園市政府他們來提出來請他們提出來那我們會支持是提出來還是拿出來"},{"start":375.615,"end":394.715,"text":"這個動詞很重要提出來是沒問題現在一個狀況是這樣他們因為五個月了因為他們畢竟第一線他們也應該包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司不斷的找相關的開會甚至有其他廠商大家來討論現在因為現在頭已經洗下去了你知道嗎"},{"start":395.296,"end":395.997,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":418.579,"end":423.28,"text":"單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":446.346,"end":464.452,"text":"是不是又要考慮全部那第二個方案是我們當時在討論說那你要全線到底也謝謝這個鐵道局有去發函給耗資公司喔所以希望你們來協助地方政府你好歹提出一個解決方案提出一個報價這是你們有發文的這我知道但還報價啦"},{"start":466.34,"end":467.841,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":486.835,"end":512.995,"text":"就台幣108億我覺得我們要面對這個問題部長我要拜託你啦拜託你真的你跟院長要幫忙一下鐵道局鐵道局楊局長我跟討論很多次有這個心啦但是大家看這個錢也不是他鐵道局可以去決定的啦那我們現在再重新錄音一次桃園市政府為了要把國門這個整個的甚至北北桃整個的運輸做好然後呢"},{"start":514.073,"end":515.814,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":536.311,"end":538.432,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":555.021,"end":557.502,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":572.981,"end":601.504,"text":"好 這個我務必要拜託你因為這個是真的是國家機場的大建設現在的因為從幾個行下未來三行下要來那這個部分的客人會真的很多現在擠在那邊其實難看那這個108億對於整個整個的一個補助叫地方出實在是不可能那現在的一個整個的一個集結整包我建議部長整包要去研究一下你沒有第一個資產轉移方案"},{"start":602.645,"end":602.845,"text":"二、審查114年度"},{"start":629.702,"end":631.683,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":651.033,"end":677.563,"text":"因為你來這邊也跟我說當然你跟捷運公司也說你們建議的方案就是一個整合性整合性的一個對耗資系統整合性的一個發包策略它的簡單的意思就是說假設是西門子或者亞斯通都不管哪一家你不是光做這個喔不是光是集結新車裝這個而已喔那未來我還有機場綠潔延伸線喔我還有龜山的中線喔"},{"start":681.585,"end":708.423,"text":"但是我問採購我問行政院工程會他說可以這樣搞啊你還講說未來還有丘龍華委員那邊的巴德大西亞我們10年以後發包也是你新門子的你敢講我不敢講我說真的如果這種叫做整合是不行的我是拜託局長因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線我特別要提醒當時在政事長時代發包的時候已經把延伸線作為後續擴充"},{"start":710.564,"end":724.061,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesle,你跟他講說你不要這個,已經被人家用一次了,後續擴充優先找他一架,所以你再跟他講我要跟你談,我已經是優先一架,這沒有用了,那未來中線456億有多少積電的?"},{"start":727.205,"end":727.705,"text":"adequ.委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時46分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長，還有鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長，請楊局長。"],["魯委員明哲：好，直接切入主題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：我們在機場捷運的號誌問題，因為現在面臨要新購10列車給6直4普。在購車的過程中，大家都知道，列車只是骨頭，它的神經系統就是號誌嘛！那號誌出問題，上次我在7月5日總質詢也講很多了，不過我不知道待會，因為上次質詢的是前部長李孟諺部長。"],["陳部長世凱：我記得。"],["魯委員明哲：不過我剛剛看到，不管是高雄的計畫時程、臺中的部分，之前李部長答應了，我相信陳部長，剛剛我看你回答的部分，有努力朝他的方向來進行。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["魯委員明哲：現在這個情況，我覺得交通部或行政院應該要很急耶！因為機場是國門的一個代表，有很多國際旅客嘛！現在恢復到這樣一個比例的話，如果搞得很難看，現在是人多到有一班根本擠不上去。待會我們證人就要講話了，我們牛委員每天來立法院，是我們機捷的愛用戶，經常擠不上去，待會他會來說。現在這個狀況，你不解決不行喔！來，我們聽一下。","（影片播放）"],["魯委員明哲：好，當天卓院長是特別說，因為我必須把這個放完，因為當時的部長畢竟不是陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我當時坐在旁邊，所以我有聽到，您的資訊我知道。"],["魯委員明哲：好，現在的情況是舊的系統DTG-R，西門子他們當時停產了，然後英維思公司……反正故事不講啦！那個東西現在就是量很少，然後替代方案也不太多。現在要購新車，你要去買那個舊的，但是又只能開到A21站，不能夠開到火車站。因為火車站最後新的兩標，兩站這個部分，當時鐵道局發包，裡面也變更成新的CBTC的系統，因為當時特別講這是一個院級的問題。","我說真的，那天聽到卓院長這樣說，我感受到對於這樣一個困難的問題，若問題不困難，我們沒有存在的必要。有困難的問題要我們去討論、去解決，我們覺得這是一個滿驕傲的，我們努力來解決看看。他講是院級的問題，我就覺得有希望了，行政院、交通部、鐵道局，大家來看一看，當然地方政府看大家怎麼樣配合。部長，五個月了，我本來講三個月，到今天五個月了，現在交通部開了幾次會？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們有討論過吧？局長？"],["楊局長正君：我們沒有特別針對號誌議題開會。"],["魯委員明哲：所以沒有開會嘛！對不對？"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["魯委員明哲：那行政院當然沒有開會嘛！行政院覺得交通部已經當場講，但他交代前部長，所以你不算是不是？可是楊局長當時在場。我覺得我們院長至少講了一句話，就是中央一定很努力來協助地方，這是一個困難的問題，我聽到了，所以我們行政院交通部鐵道局，一定來支持大家。但問題是到現在我問你們，交通部本身沒開會，行政院當然也沒有開會，所以是一個假的院級問題！就是我很興奮，但他只是一個答題的技巧，一個質詢的技巧，我覺得這樣都不太好。","鐵道局目前針對這個案子，你們兩個理由啦！第一、因為桃園市政府，沒有就這樣的解決方案來請教你們，大概是這樣。第二、因為也不是你們局內業管的，買新車可能跟你關係也不大。可是我必須要說，跟我們卓院長在會中講的話不太對啊！部長，這樣好不好？至少桃捷還是要解決嘛！不然沒有辦法，這麼多客人在機場，國外的觀光客，有些車真的是擠爆了。再來，他的班距就15分鐘，如果普通車就15分鐘，想辦法縮短要買新車，那我就請教一下，你知不知現在號誌系統裡面討論的方案，大概有哪些嗎？目前地方政府解決的進度？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前地方政府比較希望整個號誌系統要提早重置，因為你要買新的車，那舊的號誌大概也買不到了，所以希望提早重置。在交通部的立場，其實我們是支持提早重置，這個部分我們是支持的，但是要由桃園市政府提出來，請他們提出來，我們會支持。"],["魯委員明哲：是提出來還是拿出來？這個動詞很重要。提出來是沒問題，但現在狀況是這樣，因為五個月了，畢竟他們是第一線，包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司，不斷的找相關的單位開會，甚至有其他廠商大家來討論。現在因為頭已經洗下去了，髮都還沒有吹，議價有它的困難度。我以前覺得議價最困難的就是搬家公司把我冰箱、冷氣全部搬下去了，他倒過來跟我議價，我發覺那沒有辦法。","現在這個部分，他提了第一個是臨時的方案，所謂的ITC方案。因為機捷每天在走，像這種要邊營運邊修改，坦白講很困難，只有非營運時間，每天大概五、六個小時，就這樣而已，所以需要時間比較長。這個部分臨時性的方案，汰換的費用比較少，但是事後包括班距，它的班距根本沒有辦法縮短，然後維護成本很高，而且又是臨時的，四、五年換完之後，是不是又要考慮全部？","第二個方案是我們當時在討論，要全線到底，也謝謝鐵道局有發函給號誌公司，說希望你們來協助地方政府，好歹提出一個解決方案、提出一個報價，這是你們有發文的，這我知道。但他有報價啦！花七年時間，所有的機捷，從臺北火車站到中壢火車站，事實上後面兩站已經是CBTC了，所以有21站，全部換成這種現代化的系統。他報價不多啦！因為用歐元來看真的不多，3.2億，就是臺幣108億。","我覺得我們要面對這個問題，部長我拜託你啦！真的拜託你，你跟院長要幫忙一下鐵道局，鐵道局楊局長我跟他討論很多次，有這個心啦！但是大家看這個錢，也不是他鐵道局可以去決定的。我們現在再重新看一次，桃園市政府為了要把整個國門，甚至北北桃的整體運輸做好。假設按照之前談的，大概買車10列60億，大約一人一半，桃園市政府要出30億，中央補助30億。如果購車方案這種分配不變的話，但你忘了跟他說，你出30億，後面還附帶一點小小的108億改善系統，叫桃園市政府出。我是說真的啦！桃園市政府也不是聰明、但也不是笨，要他出108億來做這個，我是覺得不可能啦！部長，你覺得可不可能？我換個車花30億，然後還要花108億來更新這個系統，這個如果我們裝不知道，要桃園市政府好好去研究處理，這是不行的。部長，你發表一下意見好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實這個部分，我們可以跟桃園市政府來做整體的討論，包含整個機捷資產移轉的部分，大家來做一個共同的討論，或許能夠找出一個解決的方案。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這個我務必要拜託你，因為這真的是國家機場的大建設，因為從幾個航廈，未來三航廈要來，這個部分的客人真的很多，現在擠在那邊其實難看。這個108億整個補助叫地方出，實在是不可能。現在整個機捷的整包，我建議部長，整包要去研究一下，你們有第一個資產轉移方案，就是說我的廠站、軌道跟車，現在財產都在你們這裡，財產都還在這裡面，那你說你購車、號誌要丟給他，他當然也不願意嘛！你們目前這個方案，之前談到說好吧！我統統給你，包括廠站的一些土地，還有一些投資的統統給你，桃園市政府只要再交10億給我，這是第一個。第二個買車的方案60億，桃園市政府要出30億，你們30億，第三個就是這個號誌系統，我覺得這個不弄的話，我覺得不夠文明啦！這個要解決啦！"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們也支持啦！要提早重置這個部分。"],["魯委員明哲：我覺得你們三包一起去談，看大家能不能去做處理，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["魯委員明哲：局長，我最後跟你報告一下、說一下，因為你來這邊也跟我說，你跟那個捷運公司也說，你們建議的方案就是一個對號誌系統整合性的發包策略。簡單的意思就是說，假設是西門子或者亞斯通，不管哪一家，你不是光做這個喔！不光是機捷新車裝這個而已，未來我還有機場綠捷延伸線，還有龜山的棕線喔！可是我問採購，我問行政院工程會，他說：「靠！可以這樣搞啊？」你還講說，未來還有邱若華委員那邊的八德、大溪，我們10年以後發包也是你西門子的，你敢講我不敢講，我說真的，如果這種叫做整合是不行的。","我拜託局長，因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線，我特別要提醒，當時在鄭市長時代發包的時候，已經把延伸線作為後續擴充，已經跟他講說你不要這個，已經被人家用一次了，就是後續擴充優先找他議價。所以你再跟他講我要跟你談，他已經是優先議價，這沒有用啦！未來棕線的456億，可以這樣去談嗎？可以說未來一定是你，或者說如果你不聽我的話，未來一定不是你，這在採購法聽起來都有問題。","最後一句話，我是在這裡拜託部長，把機捷整包的問題拿起來，最後錢的問題大家來談嘛！地方可以協助多少，中央你一定要進來挺啦！好不好？大家把這個國門挺住，拜託一下，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委，下一位登記發言的委員，楊瓊瓔委員，請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158170","url":"ht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bicyn 請問部長,以長遠的角度來看,在科技跟財政方面都沒有問題的情況下,您支持興建環島高鐵嗎?"},{"start":61.705,"end":89.821,"text":"如果財政跟科技都沒有問題的話那有這樣的需求我當然就支持啦其實跟委員報告過去呢我們目前所習慣的這個台鐵從過去也是只有台北到新竹這一段然後慢慢一段一段延伸然後最後才有這個整體的這個環島的路網那環島的路網整體的建置起來是差不多花了100年的時間花了100年的時間但我相信高鐵的部分要做一個環島的路網或許不需要這麼長的時間"},{"start":90.882,"end":102.378,"text":"市長有這個想法您並不果斷,我們先來看一個影片環島高鐵我覺得不是夢,未來的工程技術會越來越強"},{"start":105.083,"end":106.224,"text":"我不曉得我是不是請局長好不好"},{"start":138.502,"end":151.558,"text":"民國87年,那土木工程是什麼時候完工的?土木工程應該在96年通車前3年左右吧。您知道這樣子花費多長的時間嗎?"},{"start":152.812,"end":169.674,"text":"我們高鐵的規劃是在民國79年開始規劃87年動工96年通車是從規劃然後到通車總共花了17年那部長你有提到就是未來的10年20年如果未來20年我們希望可以看到環島高鐵那是不是現在就要來開始進行規劃"},{"start":173.473,"end":197.064,"text":"當然我們軌道的建設是一段一段我們當然剛剛也有其他的委員在質詢的內容就是往屏東的方向這一段先拉過去那也有另外一個議題也正在執行當中就是說拉往宜蘭的部分我們一段一段的往外拉不過這兩段其實還是要花一些時間目前也都還在規劃的階段而已"},{"start":197.324,"end":219.852,"text":"也還在規劃的階段,有更明確的,除了規劃的階段之外,還有沒有其他的評估,像是地質還有它的效益跟它的安全性?有,其實往宜蘭的延伸已經在環評,環評做完,在環評當中。南部的這個方案其實也都還沒有進入到綜合規劃,因為我們路線都還沒有選擇出來,所以其實都還要一段時間。"},{"start":220.632,"end":242.465,"text":"那本席剛才就是問到部長是因為想要表達在25年前的臺灣就有能力將就可以能夠在6年內將臺灣的西部高鐵完工那這代表臺灣的基礎建設能力是非常優秀的那請問部長您認同嗎就是您看到這個當時我們在興建這個臺灣西部的高速鐵路從他的可行性研究然後到他營運通車"},{"start":243.865,"end":248.629,"text":"總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":268.564,"end":276.33,"text":"會更高,那您認為自愛男性的部分會是什麼樣的因素呢?這個要實質去規劃的時候才會知道啦。實質的規劃,那會需要多長的時間?多長時間?"},{"start":280.282,"end":281.222,"text":" bicy、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":304.248,"end":331.07,"text":"但是日本的新幹線是全世界第一個投入商業營運的高速鐵路系統那本席要舉例像是日本第一條的新幹線為東京往大阪的東海道幹線他是在1964年10月1號通車營運的那他目前有十幾條線是由日本的JR集團他旗下無家的JR集團公司負責如果我們引進就是海外的技術我想應該不會有太大的難度"},{"start":331.77,"end":332.391,"text":"關於我們台鐵討票的問題"},{"start":347.086,"end":374.225,"text":"那這一部分部長您應該很清楚吧是是是是那在今年因為我們10月23日也有專報那針對民眾攻擊台鐵基層站務人員還有惡意逃票的行為本席有對我們台鐵的董事長提出質詢那當時本席是以這個路某這個逃票的專家他已經算是職業的逃票慣犯了那多次也被拍到被民眾拍到上部長或是我們上youtube也可以看到只要搜尋逃票"},{"start":374.825,"end":398.874,"text":"都有非常多的影片那逃票已經不是個案了如果繼續縱容下去的話這不僅是台鐵的損失也是給社會帶來不良的風氣那本席這邊也看到那光是以我們嚴列車長就是我們台鐵的列車長他曾經有說過他個人最高紀錄他單月就查漏了500張補票的張數那補票金額高達10萬元那這邊想請教部長還有我們的局長要怎麼來解決這個問題"},{"start":403.971,"end":424.393,"text":"投票的部分其實我覺得當然台鐵的列車長大家都很辛苦不斷在車上做查票的動作那再來就是說進出那個閘口的查驗的部分可能要更落實就是說他進站的時候或許是用刷卡的或許是用實體票的這個進出站的查驗可能要比過去再更落實一些"},{"start":425.314,"end":450.053,"text":"因為有基層第一線的同仁他們也有提到說臺鐵公司並沒有賦予臺鐵員工在法律上的強制力那這樣子他們要怎麼來做取締呢?如果遇到這種狀況大概我們會找鐵路警察除了鐵路警察之外呢?我們是不是要該研議來修法?可是即便是修法也不太可能賦予臺鐵的員工執法的權利"},{"start":452.861,"end":480.387,"text":"部長您這邊提到的是沒有辦法賦予台鐵員工的強制力那這邊那投票我們只能仰賴鐵路警察來做查緝嗎?報告委員如果說我們在法令上面如果可以做更強制力的賦予台鐵的員工的話那剛剛局長在說北捷很像就可以有這個強制力這我們可以來研究這可以來研究那請局長再與法務部還有我們的內政部來一起進行發布會的討論"},{"start":481.327,"end":500.255,"text":"最後這邊本席也要再提醒一次部長是捷運山陰縣延伸至巴德依岸部長您應該不陌生吧現在已經78天了請部長務必要提醒院長盡快將捷運山陰縣延伸至巴德依岸盡快來核定謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":868,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時38分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。本席今天要跟您討論的是我們臺灣的高速鐵路。本席有看到您在12日接受媒體訪問時表示，軌道運輸都是一段、一段的發展，環島高鐵要看未來的科技，還有未來政府的財政狀況，但現在的建設都會預留尾軌，提供未來延伸的可能。部長您還有說到，雖然您沒有辦法告訴大家，現在就要蓋環島高鐵，但未來10、20年後，以政府的能力，蓋環島高鐵不一定是困難的事吧？部長這是您說的嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是的，沒錯。"],["邱委員若華：本席想先請問部長，以長遠的角度來看，在科技跟財政都沒有問題的情況下，您支持興建環島高鐵嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：如果財政跟科技都沒有問題的話，有這樣的需求，我當然就支持啦！其實跟委員報告，我們目前所習慣的臺鐵，過去也是只有台北到新竹這一段，然後慢慢一段、一段延伸，最後才有整體環島的路網。那環島的路網整體建置起來，差不多花了100年的時間，但我相信高鐵的部分要做一個環島的路網，或許不需要這麼長的時間。"],["邱委員若華：是，其實部長有這個想法，您並不孤單喔！我們先來看一個影片。","（影片播放）"],["邱委員若華：不只是我們的交通部王前任部長，根據Yahoo的網路民調，從3月25日到29日的民調顯示，有高達58%的民眾也支持興建環島高鐵，對於這樣的遠見，本席先給予部長高度的肯定。有幾個問題要就教部長，部長您知道我國的西部高鐵是什麼時候開工的嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：開工的時間我不知道，是不是請局長？"],["楊局長正君：民國87年。"],["邱委員若華：那土木工程是什麼時候完工的？"],["楊局長正君：土木工程應該在96年通車前三年左右吧！"],["邱委員若華：是，那您知道這樣子花費多長的時間嗎？"],["楊局長正君：我們高鐵的規劃是在民國79年開始規劃，87年動工，96年通車。"],["邱委員若華：是，從規劃然後到通車，總共花了17年。部長，您有提到未來的10年、20年，如果未來20年我們希望可以看到環島高鐵，那是不是現在就要來開始進行規劃跟環評？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當然我們軌道的建設是一段、一段，剛剛也有其他委員在質詢的內容是往屏東的方向，這一段先拉過去。另外一個議題也正在執行當中，就是拉往宜蘭的部分，我們一段、一段的往外拉，不過這兩段其實還是要花一些時間，目前也都還在規劃的階段而已。"],["邱委員若華：也還在規劃的階段，除了規劃的階段之外，還有沒有其他更明確的評估？像是地質，然後還有它的效益，跟它的安全性。"],["陳部長世凱：有，其實往宜蘭的延伸已經在環評……"],["楊局長正君：正在環評當中。"],["陳部長世凱：環評當中，南部的這個方案，其實也都還沒有進入到綜合規劃，因為我們路線都還沒有選擇出來，所以其實都還要一段時間。"],["邱委員若華：本席剛才問到部長，是想要表達25年前的臺灣就有能力，能夠在6年內將臺灣的西部高鐵完工，這代表臺灣的基礎建設能力是非常優秀的，請問部長您認同嗎？當時我們在興建臺灣西部的高速鐵路，從可行性研究到營運通車，中間這段過程……"],["陳部長世凱：是，差不多花費了15年的時間。"],["邱委員若華：15年，那跟25年前比起來，以現在的技術，我們是不是更加的進步？"],["陳部長世凱：技術上是會進步，不過如果再往更南，或者是往東部發展的話，其實技術上的需求、層面跟挑戰會更高，會比西部還高許多。"],["邱委員若華：會更高，那您認為窒礙難行的部分是什麼樣的因素呢？"],["陳部長世凱：這個要實質去規劃的時候才會知道。"],["邱委員若華：那會需要多長的時間？"],["陳部長世凱：這個是不是我們先完成宜蘭跟屏東之後，我們可以慢慢的再努力往後規劃？"],["邱委員若華：好，針對環島高鐵這個議題的部分也要和部長分享，以現有的工程技術應該不是問題，因為同屬環太平洋火山帶的日本，他們過去也曾發生過強震。我們臺灣也一直都是歸咎於我們在地震帶的關係，所以執行起來有難度，可是日本的新幹線是全世界第一個投入商業營運的高速鐵路系統。像是日本第一條的新幹線，是東京往大阪的東海道幹線，在1964年11月1日通車營運，目前也有十幾條線，是由日本的JR集團旗下的五家公司負責。如果我們引進海外的技術，我想在執行上應該不會有太大的難題，也請部長還有局長後續可以盡快來做規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們朝這個方向來努。"],["邱委員若華：另外本席之前也有問到關於臺鐵逃票的問題，這一部分部長您應該很清楚吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：因為我們今年10月23日也有專報，針對民眾攻擊臺鐵基層站務人員，還有惡意逃票的行為，本席有對臺鐵的董事長提出質詢。當時本席是以陸某這個逃票的專家，他已經算是職業的逃票慣犯，也被民眾多次拍到，或是我們上YouTube也可以看到，只要搜尋逃票都有非常多的影片。逃票已經不是個案了，如果繼續縱容下去的話，這不僅是臺鐵的損失，也是給社會帶來不良的風氣。本席也看到臺鐵的顏列車長曾說，光是他個人的最高紀錄，單月就查漏了500張補票，補票金額高達10萬元。請教部長還有局長，要怎麼解決這個問題？"],["陳部長世凱：逃票的部分其實我覺得，當然臺鐵的列車長大家都很辛苦，不斷在車上做查票的動作。再來就是進出閘口查驗的部分，可能要更落實，就是說他進站的時候，或許是用刷卡的，或許是用實體票的，進出站的查驗可能要比過去再更落實一些。"],["邱委員若華：因為基層第一線的同仁他們也有提到，臺鐵公司並沒有賦予臺鐵員工在法律上的強制力，這樣他們要怎麼來做取締呢？"],["陳部長世凱：如果遇到這種狀況，我們大概會找鐵路警察來處理。"],["邱委員若華：找鐵路警察，除了鐵路警察之外呢？我們是不是該研議修法？"],["陳部長世凱：可是即便是修法，也不太可能賦予臺鐵員工執法的權利。"],["邱委員若華：部長，您這邊提到的是，沒有辦法賦予臺鐵員工的強制力，那逃票我們只能仰賴鐵路警察來做查緝嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果我們在法令上可以賦予臺鐵員工更有強制力的話，剛剛局長在說像北捷就可以有這個強制的能力……"],["楊局長正君：這個我們可以來研究。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們來研究看看。"],["邱委員若華：請局長再與法務部還有內政部一起進行跨部會的討論。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：最後本席也要再提醒一次部長，捷運三鶯線延伸至桃園八德段，部長您應該不陌生吧？"],["陳部長世凱：不陌生，委員已經提出過好幾次了。"],["邱委員若華：現在已經78天了，請部長務必要提醒院長，儘快將捷運三鶯線延伸至桃園八德一案核定。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（邱委員若華）：下一位登記質詢發言的委員，魯明哲委員，請魯明哲召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158169","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158169","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1148a706bf8df6d19c691fc1ddc1369668f00481bd910a073af890c8298699f945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間"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,{"start":569.693,"end":586.224,"text":"我想我們為了國家的發展、人民的健康相關的部門特別是衛福部真的是叫日以繼夜我想所有的人除了在上班的時候腦筋響著都是怎麼樣把他的工作做得正有品質"},{"start":588.57,"end":616.081,"text":"人性一個求好一個也是一個求好的人性當然我們一直呼籲我們要有一個上班的時候就上班下班的時候就好好放鬆去做健康的工作跟家人相聚這是一個理想的狀況但是工作的量份量如果超過他上班時間能做的或者是在效率上我們是還有精進的空間的話這個部分的確會讓"},{"start":617.898,"end":641.424,"text":"因為我也算公務機關做了幾十年從臺大醫院還有都是差不多在公務機關其實真的工作同仁都非常的辛苦壓力都非常的大所以我們真的要互相體諒互相支持然後用那領導者就必須要用更有效率讓大家更快樂的"},{"start":642.464,"end":658.183,"text":"的一個方式來帶領那面對外面的壓力有時候主管者也要去承擔不要把壓力承到基層的太多到基層的一個同仁所以是身為主管也必須要去承擔的"},{"start":659.364,"end":684.444,"text":"一個責任,當然主管也不要垮掉。人力不足的部分,其實我覺得應該要去爭取。我們一直不管是預算或者人力,這個都是隨著工作的量以及我們對人民的照顧求好的當中,真的自然就會增加。這個部分真的也是大家需要體諒跟幫忙。"},{"start":685.705,"end":705.262,"text":"這樣才能夠讓我們的公務人員真的過得有尊嚴、快樂然後大家共同來改變一個更好的文化也因為最近的一些事故讓我們的臺灣職場更好不管是勞動或者是公務能夠更好這就是我們這麼辛苦、這麼痛苦之下希望為臺灣能夠還貢獻這個部分"},{"start":709.691,"end":728.643,"text":"我結尾一下,你這樣一直要說我下來。沒有,我當然就是中心的這個請因為預算會期總是這個需要跟所有的委員溝通只是我看到就是說那個衛福部的相關的這個預算提案這麼多這個這麼多確實"},{"start":731.305,"end":754.616,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":754.696,"end":778.709,"text":"其實勞工的這個工作環境其實公務人員的這個工作環境也要去重視而不是其實很多公務人員他即使假日加班或晚上加班他也不敢報加班費他就是責任制他就把工作做完那有時候工作做完可能就都三更半夜有時候早上就出門了所以我覺得說我們大家互相體諒那尤其是在這個會期真的我也在這邊誠心的拜託這個召委"},{"start":783.752,"end":784.153,"text":"我回應一下謝謝我想我在醫療這麼久"},{"start":800.794,"end":827.291,"text":"最聽到的可能會比較辛苦的都是衛福部聽說以前這幾天衛生署、衛福部其實都是到晚上都還是燈光開著真的一直都是很辛苦我相信能夠在衛福部工作這麼久真的是在這邊令人敬佩因為我才剛到沒多久我可以感謝過去大家的努力當然未來我們希望"},{"start":828.051,"end":828.212,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1408,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時44分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好，部長辛苦了。部長，就今天的這個討論，我們衛福部裡面有關霸凌的這個案件，結果已經出來了，我想請教目前不論是行政院或者是衛福部這邊，有一個霸凌的申訴……"],["邱部長泰源：平台。"],["黃委員秀芳：就是申訴，然後可能就是要求當事人要具名提出，我覺得如果說以事實的話，當事人具名其實也是壓力非常的大，就是說當事人受到主管的霸凌或其他人的霸凌，如果以他來具名的話，那個壓力之大，我覺得部長應該也可以想見。","再來就是說，如果他去登錄，就是說有這個霸凌的去登錄，登錄之後可能就有長官找你來談談話，就像之前勞動部一樣，也許次長就來談談話，談談話之後覺得這好像也不是霸凌，所以很多是長官晤談之後也許就會撤案，那這個霸凌率可能就變成零。我今天要講的就是，其實這個會有一個困境，就是說這個申訴管道普遍認為，如果是要具名的話，可能會讓這個當事人覺得對於這個管道不是那麼的信任，可能會覺得不信任。另外，如果說不具名檢舉的話又流為黑函，通常都是這樣，尤其是公務機關，如果你沒有具名的話，可能就會被列為黑函。那如果具名的話，他的壓力又非常大。我想請教，在衛福部裡面怎麼樣讓你的基層員工可以信任，然後又可以落實查察，就是要杜絕霸凌的這種情況再發生，是不是可以請部長先回答？"],["邱部長泰源：我想經過這些檢討，我們也做了一些處理，以後我們更重要的是怎麼樣創造一個更友善，零霸凌的環境。不管是從法規制度，從文化的建立，從教育方面，我們一定會全力來努力。","另外，具名、不具名這個部分，就行政院或者是衛福部，我們也針對所有的不具名，但是他能夠講出當事人以及具體事證的話，我們也會處理，像這次我們其實很多都是不具名在處理。至於說在衛福部怎麼樣來做常規的處理，這個部分請呂次長來幫忙回應一下，因為現在是由呂次長負責的。"],["呂次長建德：非常非常感謝委員垂詢，誠如剛剛部長所說，我們整個相關的程序，確實是以非常嚴格，而且非常嚴謹的程序來進行。我再重複一次，第一個我們的外部委員高達4位，其實大概cover這一個領域裡面，都是非常非常學有專精的專家學者，所以他們對於相關的問題都已經非常有經驗。第二個是我們在這個部分，其實有進行高達96位同仁的相關調查程序，所以有相關的部分我們都在做。","至於剛剛委員特別提到有關具名、不具名，其實你就算是不具名，但是你有具體指涉當事人以及具體的事證，我們也受理。我們這一次的調查就是根據這個原則，所以讓我們的整個收案的標準，事實上是在相對寬鬆的情況之下，用比較寬鬆的標準來面對這個事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我們發現有時候部門如果受到這樣子的不合理對待，也許他們會覺得直接向媒體爆料會比直接跟部會申訴的效果更好，我覺得未來這個申訴的管道應該要更暢通。"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：以目前來講，不合時宜的部分應該也要做一個檢討，所以次長覺得目前這樣的申訴管道已經很暢通了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，其實部長常常跟我們講，沒有最好、只有更好，所以我們這個部分一定是要持續精進，讓同仁有一個最有尊嚴，而且最好的工作環境。其實委員也知道，在疫情期間衛福部擔負國家很重要的責任，同仁真的非常辛苦，還有我們社工、長照的部分，但是即使是這樣，部長常常跟我們講，我們就是要利用這個機會，大家好好的來提供給同仁一個最安心的職場環境。","另外我也補充一下，剛剛委員有提到即使是不具名，但是有具體事證，所以我們這次也這樣處理，不過也必須讓這個同仁在受訪的時候有比較多的數據，達到一個數據的時候，我們才用這個去訪問這個行為人，讓他們有一個交叉比對。其實調查小組也是用交叉比對的結果，來做成成立與否的根據，所以我們確實都是有所本的，有一個相關證據來做出勿縱也勿枉的結論，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實在衛環委員會這三個部會，不論是衛福部、勞動部或環境部，這三個部會就以這一個預算審查的會期來講，勞動部跟環境部兩個加起來的預算提案都沒有衛福部一個部多，所以確實衛福部的這個案子，真的非常的吃重，而且所有的工作同仁確實工作量也非常大。尤其是在預算會期，你還要就委員所有的提案一案一案去跟委員溝通，案件量確實真的多，溝通也確實有時候要花很多時間，所以我也覺得在衛福部工作的這些公務人員確實真的非常非常的辛苦！我想請教部長的是案件量這麼多、工作量這麼大，之前我們辦公室的一個同仁到衛福部本部去辦理醫事人員證書，在一樓的窗口辦理文件時，看到你們衛福部的服務人員一方面要用耳麥接電話，一方面又要服務來到窗口的民眾，工作量確實非常的大。我想請教，如果人力不足的話，你們有什麼樣的方式可以來補充？至少不要讓衛福部的這些公務人員，有的是醫師，有的可能都是高考及格進來的，你總是要讓他們有一個好的工作環境吧！我們一直在講要讓勞工有一個好的工作環境，那即使是公務人員，你也要讓他有一個好的工作環境而不是讓他過勞，所以我想請教部長，未來要怎麼樣去讓我們衛福部裡面的工作能夠更有效率、分工能夠更明確？另外就是委員會中委員的所有提案，其實你們衛福部的預算提案真的比這兩個部會加起來還多，確實真的非常辛苦啦！非常辛苦！所以我覺得蘇召委真的也要幫點忙，尤其是只剩下幾天的時間了，真的要讓這些公務人員一方面能夠順利的去溝通，讓這些案子能夠順利，另外一方面真的也不要讓他們過勞啦！我想請教部長，你未來要怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們為了國家的發展、人民的健康，相關的部門特別是衛福部真的可說是日以繼夜，所有的人在上班的時候腦筋裡想的都是怎麼樣把他的工作做得有品質，這也是人性啦！也是一個求好的人性。當然我們一直呼籲上班的時候就上班，下班的時候就好好放鬆，去做健康的活動、跟家人相聚，這是一個理想的狀況，但是工作的份量如果超過他上班時間能做的，或者是在效率上我們還有精進的空間的話，這個部分的確會讓……因為我也算在公務機關做了幾十年，從臺大醫院還有其他地方都差不多是在公務機關，其實工作同仁真的都非常辛苦，壓力也非常大，所以我們真的要互相體諒，互相支持，領導者就必須要用更有效率、讓大家更快樂的方式來帶領，面對外面的壓力，有時候主管者也要去承擔，不要把太多壓力給到基層同仁身上，這也是身為主管必須要去承擔的責任，當然主管也不要垮掉。"],["黃委員秀芳：人力不足的部分我覺得應該也要去爭取。"],["邱部長泰源：人力不足的部分，其實不管是預算或者人力，都是隨著工作量以及我們對人民照顧求好之心自然就會增加，這個部分真的也是大家需要體諒跟幫忙的，這樣才能夠讓我們的公務人員真的過得有尊嚴、快樂，然後大家共同來改變，建立一個更好的文化，也因為最近的一些事故，讓我們臺灣的職場更好，不管是勞動或者是公務能夠更好，這就是我們這麼辛苦、這麼痛苦之下，希望能為臺灣貢獻的。"],["黃委員秀芳：我做個結尾，因為預算會期總是需要跟所有的委員溝通，只是我看到衛福部預算的相關提案這麼多，確實讓衛福部這些主管疲於奔命，還要去溝通，所以我覺得一方面人力不足的部分可能要再去補充，一方面就是要考量工作分配，再一方面可能也要請我們所有的委員體恤，不只是勞工的工作環境，其實公務人員的工作環境也要去重視，其實很多公務人員即使假日加班或晚上加班也不敢報加班費，他就是責任制，就是要把工作做完，有時候工作做完可能都已經三更半夜，然後一大早就又出門了。所以我覺得我們大家要互相體諒，尤其是在這個會期，真的我也在這邊誠心的拜託蘇召委，因為衛福部的提案真的非常、非常的多，對於基層的這些主管來講確實壓力非常的大，以上。"],["邱部長泰源：我回應一下，謝謝委員，我想我在醫療界這麼久，聽到可能會比較辛苦的都是衛福部，聽說這幾天衛福部到晚上都還是燈光開著，真的一直都是很辛苦，我相信能夠在衛福部工作這麼久的人，真的是令人敬佩。因為我才剛到任沒多久，我在此感謝過去大家的努力，未來我們希望不管是主管或基層員工都能夠有尊嚴又快樂的工作環境。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然也要塑造一個好的工作環境，而不是在一個……"],["邱部長泰源：有快樂的公務人員就會有健康的人民。"],["黃委員秀芳：對啦！謝謝！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳召委，謝謝部長。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","再來請廖偉翔委員質詢。","我們下個禮拜三、禮拜四審衛福部的預算，就是25號和26號，大家準備好。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speake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上就很爽快答應我了嘛！因為華信一直希望保七，所謂保七就是七成的載客率，他還要保八，要八成的載客率他才飛。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：那我們縣政府是講七成的載客率，如果虧的話縣政府來承擔。我們也找了防衛部，說他飛機飛過來，我們不是光幫老百姓、觀光客的忙，我們還幫國防部的忙呢！是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我想國防部本來應該向它要點錢，但是算了，因為回家的路既然那麼遙遠，大部分都阿兵哥啊！我們馬祖老百姓住在高雄的不多，我們也希望藉此能夠帶動南部的觀光客，把他帶到馬祖來，這很重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員雪生：那保七、保八，部長也答應我說……"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們來協調看看。"],["陳委員雪生：保七，部長你負責喔！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：對航空公司來說，保八就是不虧損，華信航空大概是希望不虧損。"],["陳委員雪生：華信不是不虧損，華信的成本在7.5。"],["陳部長世凱：對啦！不虧損倒賺一點點這樣。"],["陳委員雪生：他的意思就是7.5，保八還賺0.5。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，你也跟我講保七應該可以吧？不是保七總隊，是七成喔！"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得能夠達到七成已經是個很好的進展，我來跟他們溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：對，你華信也要去努力嘛！華信不能躺在床上賺錢啊！天底下沒有白吃的午餐。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，華信現在都在虧錢，他們沒有賺錢。"],["陳委員雪生：還好吧！立榮有錢賺欸！他好好飛嘛！再努力一下，我們再協助他招攬觀光，你看陳其邁市長跟我們連江縣王忠銘縣長都已經答應了。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一起努力讓他的載客率不要只有七成，盡量再往上拉，但是縣政府保七已經是一個很大的進展。"],["陳委員雪生：你說這個，前天晚上我打電話給華航謝董事長，謝董事長說保七要找底下研究一下，因為華信的董事長是中華航空公司的總經理，所以我想抓要抓頭啊！你懂了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：所以我請謝董事長幫忙，謝董事長說要商量。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我也來協助溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：部長有沒有打電話給謝董事長？"],["陳部長世凱：有啦！有溝通，我會協助溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：你多打幾次電話給他嘛！因為謝董事長人也滿好的，你多講兩次他也會軟掉啦！我覺得他人不錯，尤其你部長的身分，你有權責可以把董事長換掉的，開什麼玩笑，你跟他打一通電話那還得了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：會啦！我跟謝董事長時常在溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：那就保七好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我努力朝委員所指示的方向……"],["陳委員雪生：謝董事長說先飛一班，就是包機兩班以後先飛一班，那先飛一班的問題在哪裡？先飛一班的話，高雄的飛機飛過來，我們的人飛過去沒問題，但他要對接啊！所以我拜託馬防部指揮官，去的阿兵哥休假，坐這個飛機到高雄，休假幾天再坐這個飛機回到防區來。如果這樣搭配的話，一架也還好啦！不過時間應該是禮拜四、禮拜五、禮拜天，我希望能夠至少飛兩趟，至少一個禮拜飛兩架次，現在是三架次，最少固定航班開航以後，先飛兩架次。據何淑萍局長的講法，華信目前還沒有提出固定航班的申請，現在都已經12月幾號了還沒有提出申請，他還是需要差不多一個月的時間。所以我評估第三階段的包機，可能還要繼續啦！所以才拜託部長，觀光署你跟他講再拿200萬，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我請華信那邊盡量加速啦！可以朝正常航班那是比較好，也是委員期待的。"],["陳委員雪生：他龜速！他不是加速。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我請他加速。"],["陳委員雪生：加速他要虧本虧得快啊！他龜速啊！所以再請何局長盯一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：那你也跟何局長講，主持一個會議好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：找中油、連江縣縣政府，縣長會親自來，那委員列席嘛！我也找許智傑委員一起列席，這個會議我希望一次啊！不要議而不決，我們一次開會，一定要到位，把這個事情弄好，部長好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：包含200萬也好。"],["陳部長世凱：我們去溝通啦！"],["陳委員雪生：觀光署可以啦！部長跟署長講OK啦！不要說200萬，300萬他都會願意啦！等審預算的時候我們再來談好不好？現在談好像比較尷尬一點，沒有實質的動作。"],["陳部長世凱：不是，因為預算還沒過啦！所以我現在還不好說。"],["陳委員雪生：召委拜託你好不好？這個幫我弄一下好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們一起來努力啦！"],["陳委員雪生：你讓觀光署在我們腦袋裡面留下一個很好的印象，預算也比較好審，懂了沒有？加速預算審查的進行，刪減的一定會少，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：那部長拜託你了。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：第三階段的包機不能停止，然後接續固定航班，我今天質詢的主題就是這個，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長、謝謝召委。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。接下來有請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158166","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158166","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a16fb5d28055b0d681041ac1bd29e6d5ff8f00481bd910a073861507bed890295c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:18:17 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bicyclist 邰智英"},{"start":58.663,"end":83.998,"text":"我上禮拜有跟部長說明一下我本身是開電動車所以我對於這種新能源在運輸載具的使用上面有一些我的一些想法啦那其實過去很長一段時間不只這一艘貨輪還有其他的貨輪等等的都會發生一些擱淺漏油等等的事件但我沒想過其實我們現在在運輸轉型的方面有兩大的方向一個是電動"},{"start":84.858,"end":85.659,"text":" bicyclist 邀請國家運輸安全查委員"},{"start":105.043,"end":106.644,"text":" bicy、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":129.557,"end":138.724,"text":"包括 the energy efficiency, although the energy efficiency is a little bit lower than the electric energy, but the energy efficiency is about the same size."},{"start":138.724,"end":144.548,"text":"Just like a light car can go further than an electric car, a light boat can also go further than an electric boat."},{"start":144.548,"end":153.454,"text":"I don't know, because we have some jobs in Hong Kong, there may be a bigger policy, which is a policy of the Ministry of Economy of the country."},{"start":153.454,"end":155.195,"text":"Have we thought about it?"},{"start":155.195,"end":158.878,"text":"Because we have a lot of units in Hong Kong, including port companies, and so on."},{"start":159.218,"end":164.381,"text":"報告委員在交通部的部分因為未來的整體的交通運輸的減碳跟永續其實是個很重要的議題那這個部分我們其實也都在理解並且在希望能夠推動那不過這個部分要看"},{"start":186.315,"end":209.682,"text":"整個國際例如說以輪船來講的話國際上大家希望用什麼樣子的新燃料就是未來比較減碳比較永續的一個燃料是什麼那交通部這邊在航港的部分就是說全力配合例如說如果是委員剛剛所提到的如果未來的趨勢是走向加輕輕氣的這個船的話那我們的整個港埠設施就必須要有加輕氣的這個設施必須要建構"},{"start":212.363,"end":239.957,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":240.117,"end":241.198,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":262.307,"end":282.098,"text":"那他可能在高速公路上面發生追撞的事故比較高,那我不曉得這件事情在最近這段時間有沒有來做相對應的降低?降低啊?數據上,其實特斯拉我們很像...不只特斯拉,應該是所有的電動車有輔助駕駛的,這方面有沒有降低比較多?"},{"start":282.622,"end":302.038,"text":"跟委員報告一下目前大概就是說之前大家比較關注的可能有一些這一個車輛駕駛開這個駕駛輔助系統去撞到高速公路的這個工程這個防撞車的這個部分是那這個這個部分我們大概有做一個最終的部分大概第一個有開輔助駕駛跟沒有開輔助駕駛大概就一半一半"},{"start":302.718,"end":330.387,"text":"另外有開輔助駕駛的部分其實那個廠牌也沒有見到所謂的這個集中性大概其實大概我們大概也知道說其實目前大概就是說Level 1、Level 2在其他這個各廠牌大概是一個蠻標準的一個這個配配那目前從統計數字上面看到的這個部分的話是沒有講說沒有是沒有看到特別集中在哪個廠牌的那事故率有沒有降低或者是"},{"start":331.607,"end":352.602,"text":"大家可能最近比較少聽到這個就是車輛在去撞這個工程防撞車有關於這個輔助駕駛的部分的話其實部裡面跟這個高雄局一直在做宣導那另外在這個車輛安全審驗端的部分也做了一些相關的加強比如說車主所測裡面一定要把這些輔助駕駛的東西寫得特別這個重點"},{"start":353.823,"end":367.763,"text":" bicyclist 業態一定要去做這個這個相關的一個說明那第三個部分只要有出事情頭就是說那個廠牌有去撞到的部分的話我們就要求那個廠牌自己要提出自己的這個檢視的這個報告"},{"start":370.126,"end":390.96,"text":"那另外在這個高雄警那個部分的話也請他們去加強就是說後面工程、防撞車一些相關交為這個部分的一個加強配置。我其實想提這個當然是最近它真的是一個新聞議題那好像過去會給大家的一個認知輔助駕駛或者是自動駕駛可能會有比較高的一個事故率那撇開追撞工程車這件事情我們有沒有做過相關的統計我們"},{"start":393.061,"end":393.861,"text":" bicyclist"},{"start":412.158,"end":437.353,"text":"這個跟我們報告一下確實就是說要把車輛這個區分就是說你當時有沒有開輔助駕駛系統這個部分都是要跟我們報告事故之後親自訪談的部分比較難這個事前就去做區分因為確實現行的車輛在外表的特徵上面的部分是沒有做這個部分所以要去統計那個平均當量的那個部分是有點"},{"start":438.394,"end":458.232,"text":"其實我會問這個問題最主要是其實在國外啦在國外相關的研究比如說自己汽車品牌自己做的研究或者是第三方的一些研究等等的開現在其實國外有一些全自動駕駛開全自動駕駛的事故率大概是純手工我們人類開車的事故率大概是十分之一如果說用他的里程數來算的話"},{"start":459.173,"end":478.265,"text":"大概他們全自動的大概是十倍的里程才會發生一次事故那人類當然就是十分之一的里程就會發生一次事故所以說其實國外在很多包括舊金山美國舊金山或者是一些洛杉磯或者是我不要講美國講對岸在很多的城市其實很多的"},{"start":479.335,"end":504.104,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesi,我們不知道我們國內統計數據是什麼樣,但是在國外相關的統計數據上面全自動無人的駕駛的車輛的事故率其實都是比人為開車的事故率還低,那我們不曉得我們國內目前有沒有在討論無人計程車這件事情?"},{"start":508.085,"end":525.475,"text":"欸報告委員齁,國外在試行無人計程車他也是特定區域啦對當然他都會劃定區域對他慢慢就會更擴張啦那未來也可能會成為一個趨勢所以其實我們台灣相關的單位包含交通部應該也要開始來討論有任何的廠商國內或國外的廠商來提出申請嗎?"},{"start":526.803,"end":546.228,"text":"跟委員報告一下上次大概我也有關系到這個課題就是說其實國內屬於這個自動駕駛這個場域的部分的話大概目前適用的是經濟部那個無人載具的那個部分但是目前在透過這個管道的話大概主要是這些相關自駕系統開發的廠商還沒有所謂的車廠的一個這個部分"},{"start":548.769,"end":573.04,"text":"那我們也很這個就是說樂見國內的相關車廠比如說納茲捷或是等等部分他們有投入這一個整車的部分的話那如果說有這些相關比較成熟的這一個產品的話那目前交通部已經在做法規的調適已經在做法規的調適因為我講的是其實我們最近可能國內討論比較多的就是一個行人安全行人安全那既然全自動的無人駕駛的車輛"},{"start":574.901,"end":589.707,"text":"獲得的安全性和事故率都比我們人為價值還來得低那我也希望我們交通部未來我不知道有沒有廠商提出申請那未來我們對於這樣新的一個世界的趨勢是朝一個開放的一個心態因為我知道有時候引進一個新的東西"},{"start":590.327,"end":590.347,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["廖委員先翔：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：原本上禮拜有兩個問題要問，但第一個問題問完時間就沒了，導致第二個航港局的問題還沒問，今天要問，不過今天航港局的人沒來，你可能要自力更生。請教一下，野柳那艘船的油抽完了沒？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，抽油部分我們一直期待它可以趕快，不過，確實整個天候狀況……"],["廖委員先翔：海象的問題嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：海象的問題……"],["廖委員先翔：還沒有完全解決？"],["陳部長世凱：對，還沒有完全解決，但是它現在比例上應該……我前兩天所得到的數據是已經抽完差不多70%、80%了，所以剩下的油其實並不多了。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我不是要檢討速度的問題，我知道所有人都非常賣力的在解決這個問題，我想講的是更前期的一些問題，我上禮拜也有跟部長說明，我本人是開電動車，所以我對於這種新能源在運輸載具的使用上面有一些我的想法。其實過去很長一段時間，不只這一艘貨輪，還有其他的貨輪等等，都會發生一些擱淺、漏油等等事件，但你們有沒有想過，其實我們現在在運輸轉型方面有兩大方向，一個是電動，一個是氫能，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：國內的汽車產業，其實原則上大概是朝電動車發展，氫能應該是不會了，原則上應該不會，但是在船業這方面，我們好像都還沒有討論過船類的轉型方向，因為如果今天我們不是用傳統的油，它在海上發生事故的話，或許有兩種，一種是電能，一種是氫，如果是電的話，可能還是會對海底造成一些污染，因為現在的電池其實還是一個高污染的東西。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["廖委員先翔：但是如果是氫的話，如果真的發生一些事故，它對於海洋生態的污染，其實相對來說是比較輕微的。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["廖委員先翔：目前來看，比較不會有什麼大型的污染，包括續航力方面，氫能雖然能源轉換率是比電能差一點，但是就它的續航力來說，同樣規模的續航力，就像氫車可以比電動車開得更遠，一樣的，氫船也可以比電動船開得更遠。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：因為我們有航港的一些作業等等，可能還有一個更大的方針，是國家、經濟部的方針，但你們有沒有思考過，因為我們有很多的航港單位，包括港務公司等等也都是交通部轄下的，其實我知道在國外已經有一些，像日本都已經在做一些氫船的研究了，我們國內對於船的能源轉型，有沒有任何的相關著墨？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在交通部的部分，因為未來交通運輸整體的減碳跟永續，其實是個很重要的議題，這個部分我們其實也都在理解，並且希望能夠推動。不過，這個部分要看整個國際，例如以輪船來講的話，國際上大家希望用什麼樣子的新燃料，就是未來比較減碳、比較永續的燃料是什麼，交通部這邊在航港的部分會全力配合，例如委員剛剛所提到的，如果未來的趨勢是走向加氫，氫氣的船的話，我們的整個港埠設施就必須要有加氫氣的設施，也必須要建構，這個部分其實我們也正在盤點，就是對於未來新的燃料、永續的燃料，它是什麼樣子的燃料，在我們的港埠設施也要先預做規劃，這個部分交通部都已經有在做討論跟規劃。"],["廖委員先翔：好，有在討論，那就麻煩後續繼續針對相關的……當然，我是地方的民意代表，海洋污染可能會影響到我們民眾的生計，但是站在國家的立場來看，這也是未來勢必要走的路。"],["陳部長世凱：這是一定要做的。"],["廖委員先翔：已經有其他國家在走了。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["廖委員先翔：當然，我們國內的各個一級單位也要去做分工，港務公司或是航港局等等，要去做的一些配套，也都要提早做準備。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["廖委員先翔：另外，再請教一下，這個跟運安會可能有點關係，過去幾年大家其實常常在討論一件事，有一件事情會變新聞議題，就是特斯拉的輔助駕駛，可能在高速公路上面發生追撞的事故率比較高，我不曉得這件事情在最近這段時間有沒有降低？"],["陳部長世凱：降低？數據上，其實特斯拉我們……"],["廖委員先翔：不只特斯拉，應該是所有電動車有輔助駕駛的，這方面有沒有降低比較多？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，目前大概就是說之前大家比較關注的，可能有一些車輛駕駛開駕駛輔助系統去撞到高速公路工程緩撞車的這個部分。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["林司長福山：針對這個部分，我們有做一個追蹤，第一個，有開輔助駕駛跟沒有開輔助駕駛，大概就一半、一半。另外，有開輔助駕駛的部分，其實那個廠牌也沒有見到所謂的集中性，委員可能也知道，其實目前就是Level 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2，在其他各廠牌大概是一個滿標準的配備，目前從統計數字上面看到的這個部分的話，是沒有看到特別集中在哪個廠牌的……"],["廖委員先翔：事故率呢？有沒有降低，或者是……"],["林司長福山：事故率的部分，大家可能最近比較少聽到車輛再去撞工程緩撞車。有關輔助駕駛部分的話，其實部裡面跟高公局一直在做宣導。另外，在車輛安全審驗端的部分也做了一些相關的加強，譬如說車主手冊裡面一定要把這些輔助駕駛的東西寫得特別重要，交車的時候業代一定要去做相關的說明。第三個部分，只要有出事情，就是那個廠牌有去撞到的話，我們就要求那個廠牌自己要提出自己檢視的報告。另外，在高公局的部分，也會請他們去加強後面工程緩撞車一些相關交維這個部分的……"],["廖委員先翔：其實我提這個當然是最近它真的是一個新聞議題，好像過去給大家的認知是，輔助駕駛或者自動駕駛可能會有比較高的事故率，撇開追撞工程車這件事情，你們有沒有做過相關的統計？我不知道駕駛會不會承認啦，我們在道路上面可能都會統計每幾萬公里發生的事故率，大概都會用這樣來做統計，開輔助駕駛跟一般我們純手工的駕駛比，你們有沒有做過相關的統計？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，確實，要把車輛區分，就是你當時有沒有開輔助駕駛系統這個部分。跟委員報告，都是事故之後親自訪談的部分……"],["廖委員先翔：對啊！"],["林司長福山：比較難事前就去做區分，因為確實現行的車輛在外表特徵上面等等是沒有做這個部分，所以要去統計那個平均當量的部分是有點困難。"],["廖委員先翔：我會問這個問題最主要是，其實在國外相關的研究，譬如汽車品牌自己做的研究，或者是第三方的一些研究等等，現在其實國外有一些全自動駕駛，開全自動駕駛系統的事故率，大概是純手工、我們人類開車事故率的十分之一，如果說用它的里程數來算的話，全自動的大概是十倍的里程才會發生一次事故，人類當然就是十分之一的里程就會發生一次事故，所以其實國外在很多地方，包括美國舊金山或者是洛杉磯，或者我不要講美國，講對岸，在很多的城市，其實很多的先進城市都已經推出了無人計程車的這一項服務，我今天最主要是想要問這個，我不知道我們國內統計數據怎麼樣，但是在國外相關的統計數據上面，全自動無人駕駛車輛的事故率，其實都比人為開車的事故率還低，我不曉得我們國內目前有沒有在討論無人計程車這件事情？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，國外在試行無人計程車，它也是特定區域。"],["廖委員先翔：對，當然，它都會劃定區域。"],["陳部長世凱：對，它慢慢就會更擴張，未來也可能會成為一個趨勢，所以其實我們臺灣相關的單位，包含交通部，應該也要開始來討論。"],["廖委員先翔：有任何的廠商，國內或國外的廠商提出申請嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，上次委員也有關切到這個課題，其實國內屬於自動駕駛這個場域的部分，目前適用的大概是經濟部無人載具的那個部分。目前透過這個管道的話，大概主要是這些相關自駕系統開發的廠商，還沒有所謂車廠的部分，我們也很樂見國內的相關車廠，譬如說納智捷等等，他們有投入整車部分的話，如果說有這些相關比較成熟的產品，目前交通部已經在做法規的調適，已經在做法規的……"],["廖委員先翔：因為我要講的是，其實最近我們國內討論比較多的就是行人安全，既然全自動無人駕駛的車輛，它的安全性、事故率都比我們人為駕駛還來得低，我不知道有沒有廠商提出申請，我也希望交通部未來對於這樣新的一個世界趨勢是朝開放的心態，因為我知道有時候引進一個新的東西，就算你的事故率可能比別人低，但是因為它是新的東西，它出了一件事情就會上新聞，這可能對你們是一個壓力，但是交通部應該是要看整體的、宏觀的，我們如果要解決、降低國內交通事故機率的話，可以參考國外已經統計的非常成熟、客觀的一些數據，再來討論交通部要不要持開放的態度，來改善我們國內交通環境的安全。以上，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員。","接下來有請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158165","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158165","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a11b9447186b434d45041ac1bd29e6d5ff8f00481bd910a0738b74f074e5a4b8f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:09:14 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bicyclap"},{"start":225.37,"end":248.169,"text":" tatto好消息之後結果又要等到五年十年之後再動工。這個不是我們所樂見的。是我們會同步來進行也會跟地方政府也就是高雄市政府密切來配合。好那也要跟屏東縣政府也要來好好的來溝通。那另外就是上次本席有請教過部長就是針對台鐵六快速車站預計吸引2.6公里跟我們高鐵共構有這個規劃案嗎?"},{"start":250.017,"end":277.195,"text":"那目前但是我們在目前我們交通部跟鐵道局的預算裡面並沒有看到這樣的一個相關的經費那請教部長這個明年會不會動工是報告委員這個部分我們明年會先簽一個計畫給行政院讓行政院這邊來核定希望明年也可以來動工好不好我們來加快的經費我們明年先把計畫先送到行政院由行政院來核定之後我們就會來加速動工好"},{"start":277.659,"end":298.37,"text":"那除了這個高鐵的問題之外我想我還是要幫我們屏東的鄉親來請命這部分本席也一直在跟我們的鐵道局一直在溝通那個照片顯示部長我們的屏東的車站有很多好幾個車站目前還是所謂的一個平面式的車站"},{"start":299.471,"end":322.047,"text":"那即使我們現在有一部分包含訪寮大平台計畫都要整個拉高之後但是還是有很多車站面臨所謂的一個交通事故跟一個淹水的一個問題還是還是要強調我們一定要爭取所謂的一個全線高價化的一個計畫這部分還是要請部長跟局長多幫忙那部長這邊有沒有什麼規劃的想法"},{"start":322.487,"end":350.443,"text":"報告委員其實我覺得這一段大家要思考的是在極端氣候之後您這個照片看得出來就是說有時候只要下大雨或是颱風來那一段的軌道可能就會被淹沒這個部分對軌道的運行來講是危險的那所以我們其實整個高價化除了經濟效益之外也要再思考就是極端氣候之後那這個軌道的這個韌性跟整體交通的韌性那這個部分交通部跟鐵道局會來做整體的規劃跟評估"},{"start":351.786,"end":367.939,"text":"因為對平東鄉親來講我們長期碰到就是所謂的一個火車因為我們現在火車的頻率很高經過的頻率很高那行駛過程裡面就常常碰到所謂的一個平交道的阻擋甚至這個事故有時候事故的造成"},{"start":368.479,"end":368.919,"text":" bicyC.是是是"},{"start":387.745,"end":401.471,"text":"另外針對我們屏南觀光鐵道的部分請教一下部長我們今年3月20重啟可行性評估之後11月已經提出期中報告目前的研議方向是不是可以一個正面的答覆?"},{"start":406.029,"end":420.624,"text":"各位報告現在我們相關的作業都非常的順利所以這個規劃我們未來會再跟屏東縣政府這邊就路線還有這個車站的設置等等進行進一步的這個溝通預計明年就可以完成這個可行性研究"},{"start":421.728,"end":449.708,"text":"對,因為我想部長也跟局長也常常到墾丁去啦哈這幾年墾丁確實是面臨一個觀光的一個瓶頸那我想有一個新的一個交通的一個刺激然後加上我們未來一些新的景點的開發確實我覺得對整個觀光旅遊業有很大的注意但是我們很擔心這樣一個評估的一個速度太慢甚至我們這個施工的期程會拉得太長那部長針對這部分有沒有信心可以來完成盡快來完成這個案子"},{"start":451.163,"end":477.763,"text":"報告委員這個可行性研究的部分我們盡量來協助就是說看速度可不可以再加快一點明年年中看可不可以趕快做出來另外一個就是對我們野海鄉鎮最關心的就是我們的高雄捷運的一個小港臨遠到東港臨邊這條路線目前高雄端已經開工了預計在119年完工通車但是屏東這邊似乎還沒有聽到"},{"start":479.377,"end":494.701,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":495.31,"end":523.872,"text":"是 這個部分我們也來跟高雄市政府也來協助因為我知道我們的選址車站選址這些都已經路線都已經確定了嘛對對對現在應該只有剩下林園石化縣的這一段那這部分我想應該要趕快去溝通啦好就查這個單位應該是我們加快來啟程啦好 這個我們來加速好 那就所有我們屏東的交通建設真的要希望部長跟局長多多的支持好 我們一起努力我們要實踐賴總統的區域均衡發展交通建設絕對是一個很重要的一個要件啦好 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":525.213,"end":525.265,"text":"總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":680,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時9分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長、鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、鐵道局楊局長。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好、局長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想再過半個月2024年就要結束了，即將迎接2025年，請教部長，對於屏東人來講，他們期待2025年的新年禮物，部長知道是什麼嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：請委員指示。"],["徐委員富癸：我想我們就是希望聽到高鐵南延的好消息。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：但是這個消息，我想部長最近在委員會，本席也一直在期待部長趕快給我們這個好消息，距離2025年只剩半個月也快到了，部長，這個好消息會實現嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，高鐵南延屏東是國家的政策，這個早就定案，所以這個禮物其實屏東人應該已經拿到了，這個沒有問題。現在的問題是在於整個工程的過程當中，我們的規劃是要走左營案，也就是高屏二快這條路線，或者要走高雄案，也就是高雄火車站這條路線，這兩案我們要擇一案，這個部分在年底之前我們會確定，但是延伸到高雄是已經確定的，這是國家政策。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，請教一下，目前的說明會全部都辦完了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們總共有四場的地方說明會已經辦完了，另外賴委員也有辦了一場，那就是第五場的地方說明會。此外，我們還有專家學者的說明會兩場，這個部分已經先完成了。"],["徐委員富癸：部長自己參加或跟局長參加完之後，覺得到底這個部分會傾向是高雄案還是左營案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前聽起來，對於高雄案，高雄的鄉親跟地方的民意代表應該是有一些地方發展的期待啦！如果走高雄案，對於整體的高雄市區裡面或者是比較南高雄部分的未來發展可能會有一些幫助。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，但是包含本席跟我們很多鄉親所憂慮的是，因為目前高雄案原本要開挖的面積有5.82公頃，長度大概有3.34公里這麼長，目前有稍微縮減到2.04公里，以及把面積降低到3.9公頃，但是這樣子的用地徵收跟所謂的溝通過程，會不會在定案之後又花很多時間在處理這些所謂的用地行政程序？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我當然知道屏東的鄉親是希望能夠速度快一點，所以第一，我們在規劃的過程當中，我們將需要徵收的面積儘量減少，需要拆遷的戶數也會儘量減少，就是儘量不要影響到民眾住的權益，儘量不要影響到民眾一般生活的模式，儘量不影響。我們在綠園道的部分，不影響的面積也達到95%，也就是會影響的只有5%，我相信把影響降到最低，我們跟高雄市政府這邊也會密切來溝通、密切來配合，例如未來如果要朝都更的方向，我相信地方上面的阻力就會降低更多，如果可以做都更的話，我相信許多民眾都會滿支持的。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這點還是要拜託部長。部長，我想你也當過民意代表、你也在行政院服務過，影響百姓就會造成後續很多問題的產生。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯，我們希望影響降到最低。"],["徐委員富癸：當然我們也希望你們在規劃的過程中，同時應該要去處理用地的問題，一定要同步去進行。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯，會。"],["徐委員富癸：不要到時候聽到好消息後，結果又要等到5年、10年之後再動工，這個不是我們所樂見的。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會同步來進行，也會跟地方政府，也就是高雄市政府密切來配合。"],["徐委員富癸：也要跟屏東縣政府好好地來溝通。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，上次本席也有請教過部長，就是針對臺鐵六塊厝車站預計西移2.6公里與高鐵共構的這個規劃案，但是我們在目前交通部跟鐵道局的預算裡面並沒有看到這樣的相關經費，請教部長，明年會不會動工？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們明年會先簽一個計畫給行政院，讓行政院來核定，在明年年中……"],["徐委員富癸：希望明年也可以動工，好不好？我們來加快進度。"],["陳部長世凱：我們明年先把計畫送到行政院，由行政院核定之後，我們就會加速動工。"],["徐委員富癸：好。除了高鐵的問題之外，我還是要幫我們屏東的鄉親請命，這部分本席也一直在跟鐵道局溝通，如照片顯示，部長，屏東有好幾個車站目前還是所謂的平面式車站，即使現在有一部分包含枋寮大平台計畫都要整個拉高之後，但還是有很多車站面臨交通事故跟淹水的問題，本席還是要強調，我們一定要爭取全線高架化的計畫，這部分還是要請部長跟局長多幫忙，部長這邊有沒有什麼規劃的想法？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我覺得這一段大家要思考的是，在極端氣候之後，由您的這個照片看得出來，有時候只要下大雨或是颱風來，那一段的軌道可能就會被淹沒，這個部分對軌道的運行來講是危險的。所以其實整個高架化，除了經濟效益之外，也要再思考在極端氣候之後，軌道的韌性跟整體交通的韌性，這個部分交通部跟鐵道局會來做整體的規劃跟評估。"],["徐委員富癸：因為對屏東鄉親來講，我們長期碰到的就是，因為現在火車經過的頻率很高，行駛過程裡面就常常碰到平交道的阻擋，甚至有時候事故的造成，甚至也有很多淹水的熱點，就是因為有這樣鐵道的阻隔，所以本席才一直強調，要麻煩交通部跟鐵道局一定要針對這個問題嚴加地審慎考量，我覺得應該要還給屏東人一個全線高架化最好的交通環境。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，針對屏南觀光鐵道的部分，請教一下部長，今年3月20日重啟可行性評估之後，11月已經提出期中報告，目前的研議方向是不是可以給予一個正面的答復？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我是不是請局長回答？"],["徐委員富癸：好。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，現在我們相關的作業都非常順利，所以這個規劃我們未來會再跟屏東縣政府就路線還有車站的設置等等進行進一步的溝通，預計明年就可以完成可行性研究。"],["徐委員富癸：因為我想部長跟局長也常常到墾丁，這幾年墾丁確實是面臨觀光的瓶頸，我想有新的交通方面的刺激，加上未來一些新景點的開發，確實我覺得對整個觀光旅遊業有很大的助益，但是我們很擔心評估的速度太慢，甚至施工期程會拉得太長，部長針對這部分有沒有信心可以儘快來完成這個案子？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，可行性研究部分我們儘量來協助，看速度可不可以再加快一點，明年年中看可不可以趕快做出來。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我們沿海鄉鎮最關心的就是高雄捷運小港林園到東港林邊這條路線，目前高雄端已經開工了，預計在119年完工通車，但是屏東這邊似乎還沒有聽到動工的好消息，這部分是不是可以請部長承諾一下，我們可不可以趕快進行？"],["陳部長世凱：可是這個要等可行性研究部分，等他們做完之後，我們就會儘快加速推動。"],["徐委員富癸：他們應該也要同步進行，高雄都跑比較快，我們都跑比較慢。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們也來跟高雄市政府協助溝通。"],["徐委員富癸：因為我知道我們的車站選址，這些路線都已經確定了，現在應該只有剩下林園石化線的這一段，這部分我想應該也要趕快去溝通……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：就差這段而已，應該是加快來啟程。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來加速。"],["徐委員富癸：我們屏東的交通建設真的希望部長跟局長多多支持。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一起努力。"],["徐委員富癸：我們要實踐賴總統的區域均衡發展，交通建設絕對是一個很重要的要件。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","接下來有請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158162","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158162","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1b81de882410cf8c4c691fc1ddc1369668f00481bd910a073064411f9f51987335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:08:02 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那個 理事非常感謝我們王正旭委員的那個詮詢那我 容我這樣這一個說明三個重點第一我們的整個這個程序就是"},{"start":98.462,"end":113.884,"text":"外部委員是大於內部委員而且外部委員基本上都是有經過他是有社會心理、諮商、行政法還有有關於霸凌等等的一個非常非常具有公信力的學者專家所組成"},{"start":114.565,"end":131.408,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":131.488,"end":144.107,"text":"同時我們有相關的一個的一個事證所以整個這個程序面真的是有非常非常嚴謹的一個調查程序而且最重要就是說我們這個部分我們本部也都是尊重這個學者專家的一個相關的意見來做成"},{"start":148.433,"end":167.062,"text":"我們一定是尊重這一個委員的意見當然在這個過程裡面或許對於整個所謂什麼叫霸凌的定義其實老實說我們現在目前除了人種之外其實大部分我們是援引這一個法院的一個相關的判決法院它其實對於這個部分都有一個非常非常相關的這個定義"},{"start":168.743,"end":194.614,"text":"其實如果我們我覺得這個部分如果跟社會通面民眾如果說確實有一些我覺得這個我們會來後續來跟人種反映然後來做相關的希望能夠透過大家不斷的去認識當初這個過程裡面尤其是外部委員提供的意見是小會答案的話讓你理解這樣的話對於這部分的報告大家可以慢慢的理解為什麼會做成這一份"},{"start":195.374,"end":215.565,"text":"專案報告的這個最後結果是是是好感謝委員謝謝市長我今天有四個題目要給這個部長請教一個就是落實分級醫療再來就是藥品穩定的供應再生醫療到底執法定定的進度如何最後還是在強調這個麻醉安全的部分"},{"start":216.405,"end":234.916,"text":"若實分級醫療大家都很清楚這個是非常重要的一個政策來針對醫療人力跟醫療資源合理的分配那我們也看到一些數據讓我們擔心好像初級照護在分級醫療成效不是那麼樣的理想"},{"start":235.716,"end":260.57,"text":"最近我們也看到這個前署長李博章署長也提出建議說醫療有病亦要針對這個檢驗檢查實施的部分也希望有好的一個不溫負擔的一個處理模式當然我們也知道在這個過程很有可能會影響到這個就醫者的權益這個要如何能夠處理的比較妥當一點"},{"start":261.31,"end":286.68,"text":"需要智慧目前健保署也規劃要不再統一訂出醫院應降低門診件數比率同時也要透過分區共管會議要求門診比率較高的醫院來降低門診量我們也知道其實家庭意識制度是擔任守門診的角度部長也是這方面的專家"},{"start":288.38,"end":304.589,"text":"可以同時請教一下這個署長跟部長這邊的處理才有機會讓我們的分級醫療跟部分負擔可以同步來處理到一個讓在未來大家比較容易去理解跟接受的部分"},{"start":305.39,"end":331.613,"text":"好 謝謝委員這麼專業的垂行關心到我們整個醫療體系怎麼樣做有效力的一個更的一個改革那其實我們從在前兩屆尤其是李博章署長擔任的署長以後其實我們在這個地方已經討論過很多很多次的分級醫療包括提出了手相測類"},{"start":332.794,"end":355.556,"text":"那也一個一個一直在基本在進行啦齁那我想剛剛委員所念的這個部分以及健保署所提的我還是要強調一點我們一定要站在民眾的立場上來思考也許比較會成功啦齁你說你要退婚給醫療你給他用部分負擔或者是做一點限制"},{"start":356.496,"end":371.301,"text":"那對很多人他想去他如果還是相信醫學中心的話或者是大的基地醫院我想那個他還是會直接衝去並不會受到影響所以我們推了很多政策也許都沒有辦法達到明顯的"},{"start":372.526,"end":399.745,"text":"那個成效但是我在這邊還是要感謝這些人來的所有的醫療院所針對於分級醫療也很認真在配合啦所以我們臺灣的一個也成立了大概81個策略聯盟這策略聯盟就是醫院我相信任何一個醫院都有就大醫院都有各級醫院還有診所成立一個區域聯盟這個其實是過去的一個成效但是看起來這數目是好像"},{"start":401.066,"end":421.512,"text":"還是不是明顯那我覺得站在民眾的立場上我們來思考怎麼樣讓民眾能夠在社區就能夠找到一個他很信任而且什麼問題或家庭的不足個人小孩老人都可以找到一個可以互動的一個醫師甚至一個醫師群"},{"start":423.357,"end":442.624,"text":"其實在20年前來我們也就成立社區醫療群就是5到10個醫師成為一個家庭醫師群這個部分已經成為國際之光所以要好好善用這個我覺得政府應該加強這個家庭醫師群的功能"},{"start":443.784,"end":466.436,"text":"讓他在民眾都能夠直接有什麼任何問題就直接找他如果在這邊就得到很好的照顧他不但要轉診的時候也可以轉到最適當的一個醫師最適當的一個醫院這對民眾是一個很好的治療的方式一個非常有效率的方式所以如果能夠這樣的話我相信民眾自然就會分解醫療"},{"start":467.637,"end":468.057,"text":"江波師傅剛好在那邊誘引"},{"start":483.146,"end":503.735,"text":"各位委員報告,就如同剛剛部長所揭示的大的方向,就是如何壯大基層,讓民眾信任基層的服務。所以我們已經有多項的計畫,包含那個加一計畫二點,大加一計畫,如何協助這個基層的診所去提升他的智慧照顧、資訊能力。"},{"start":505.856,"end":512.442,"text":"我補充一下我們現在的人是需要從健康促進早期預疾病預防早期篩檢到後來在最後能夠居家醫療到最後善終這整個過程當中"},{"start":529.718,"end":530.119,"text":"人民健康維護最好的一個方式"},{"start":541.564,"end":566.322,"text":"好,感謝兩位再來就是藥品穩定供應的部分那個莊署長好像也有在現場我們知道最近有兩個相關的執法在做公告有四個修改的方向其實根據統計我們也知道說70%的健保藥品的使用是透過我們國產的藥品在處理"},{"start":567.563,"end":567.583,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":584.897,"end":607.41,"text":"韓美其他政策上要再讓更多民眾能夠理解或者是讓我們在這個製藥界也知道這樣的努力是可以讓我們的這個藥品的供應的韌性是可以能夠得到好的加強因為我們知道不管是在治療公衛或者是天災戰爭的這些韌性都非常非常的重要"},{"start":608.794,"end":636.463,"text":"謝謝委員的這個非常重要的垂涎那我想提供用藥安全跟品質然後增加供應的韌性是目前我們最具體努力在做的也具體的提出了相關的一些一些辦法那這個大概委員也有呈現那有沒有更具體要說明的我們先請健保署實施長幫我們再補充一下"},{"start":637.083,"end":652.456,"text":"跟委員報告大概我們從兩方面一方面是鼓勵這個新藥的開發就是國內的新藥的開發所以對於首發的新藥或者是在國際上上市兩年內可以到台灣製造的新藥"},{"start":653.097,"end":653.217,"text":"：王正旭"},{"start":674.973,"end":678.275,"text":"獲得額外獎勵計畫另外,在要價調整的時候對於必要的藥品該組裡面是少於三個品項當年我們就不調整這個"},{"start":690.123,"end":691.204,"text":"希望民眾會對我們的國產用藥更有信心"},{"start":713.186,"end":737.443,"text":"有時候大家都會擔心說將來要怎麼做才剛好這樣感謝再來就是有關於這個再生醫療執法的部分因為我們自從上半會期通過再生醫療雙法以後大家都很期待這個年底16個執法可以完成不知道現在已經12月這個有機會完成嗎"},{"start":738.383,"end":765.391,"text":"好,報告委員這個分兩個部分一個是再生醫療法再生醫療法我們要擬定九個子辦法現在已經陸續完成草案了大概預計在114年的第一季會進行法規的預告作業那有關於再生醫療治劑條例那這個部分我們都會訂七項執法規其中一項已經在今年的10月19號完成法規的預告那現在剛好在收集各界的預告當中"},{"start":766.813,"end":768.623,"text":"目前其他的也陸續在進行"},{"start":771.28,"end":772.24,"text":"現在衛福部目前有沒有什麼討論、規劃跟進度?"},{"start":799.571,"end":826.251,"text":"還是有什麼可以一個月或多久時間可不可以給我們一個書面報告?可以嗎?好,沒有問題我想我們趕快針對現在大家所水醒的問題立刻來召集相關的單位、團體一起來討論,連理出一個能夠真的是保護尤其是醫美診所能夠更加的安全、更加的有品質。好,謝謝博士、謝謝主席、謝謝。謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1318,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時8分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長，辛苦一下，我讀了你們今天這份專案報告的最後一頁結語，第一行就是寫衛福部對於職場霸凌零容忍的態度，我覺得這應該不只是態度而已，這應該是要確實執行的一個準則。"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然。"],["王委員正旭：所以麻煩大家好好加油。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：在這個專案檢討報告裡面，其實剛剛很多委員的想法還有媒體也披露出大家的意見可能都不太一樣，次長一直在強調勿縱，當然也要勿枉，不然的話會造成未來在處理上的一些困境，所以這份報告有沒有設定什麼樣的條件，在什麼情形之下才需要重啟調查？目前有沒有這樣的想法？有這個需要嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，請呂次說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝王正旭委員的垂詢，容我說明三個重點：第一，我們整個程序是外部委員大於內部委員，而且外部委員基本上都是有經過社會心理諮商，還有行政法以及關於霸凌等等，由非常具有公信力的學者專家所組成。第二個，針對我們的程序量化、質化，我們都做了非常非常詳細的調查，除了量化這一個問卷之外，全場總共有96位同仁願意接受我們的這個訪談，同時我們也有相關的事證，所以整個程序面，真的是有非常非常嚴謹的調查程序，而且最重要的是，這個部分本部也都是尊重學者專家的相關意見來做成，我是覺得我們一定是尊重這些委員的意見，當然在這個過程裡面，或許對於所謂什麼叫霸凌的定義，老實說，目前除了人總之外，我們大部分都是援引法院的相關判決，法院對於這個部分都有非常相關的定義，我覺得這個部分跟社會通念、民眾觀感如果確實有一些……這個我們後續會跟人總反映，然後來做相關的處理。"],["王委員正旭：希望能夠透過大家不斷地去認識當初在這個過程裡面，尤其是外部委員提供的意見，讓社會大眾都可以理解，這樣的話，對於這部分的報告，大家可以慢慢地理解為什麼會做成這份專案報告的最後結果。"],["呂次長建德：是，感謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝次長。","我今天有4個題目要跟部長請教一下，一個就是落實分級醫療，再來就是藥品穩定的供應，再生醫療到底子法訂定的進度如何，最後還是要強調麻醉安全的部分。","落實分級醫療大家都很清楚，這是一個非常重要的政策，針對醫療人力跟醫療資源合理的分配，在看到一些數據後，我們擔心好像初級照護在分級醫療的成效上不是那麼樣的理想，最近我們也看到李伯璋前署長也提出建議，除了藥品以外，針對檢驗檢查實施的部分，也希望有一個部分負擔的處理模式。","當然我們也知道，在這個過程中很有可能會影響到就醫者的權益，要如何處理得比較妥當一點，更需要智慧，健保署署長也在這裡，你們也有規劃，不再統一訂出醫院應降低的門診件數比例，同時透過分區共管會議要求門診比例較高的醫院降低門診量。我們知道，其實家庭醫師也可以擔任健康守門人，部長也是這方面的專家，可以同時請教一下署長跟部長，要怎麼處理才有機會讓我們的分級醫療跟部分負擔可以同步處理到未來讓大家比較容易理解跟接受呢？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員這麼專業的垂詢，也關心到我們整個醫療體系怎麼樣做一個有效率的改革，其實在前兩屆，尤其是李伯璋署長擔任署長以後，我們在這個地方已經討論過很多次的分級醫療，包括提出了十二項策略，也一個一個一直在進行，剛剛委員所說的這個部分以及健保署所提的，我還是要強調一點，我們一定要站在民眾的立場來思考，也許比較可能會成功。比方說要推分級醫療，若只用部分負擔，或者是做一點限制，對很多人來說，他如果還是相信醫學中心或者是大的區域醫院，我想他還是會直接衝去這些醫院，並不會受到影響，所以我們推了很多政策，也許都沒有辦法達到明顯的成效，但是我在這邊還是要感謝這些年來，所有醫療院所對於分級醫療真的也很認真在配合，我們臺灣也成立了大概81個策略聯盟，其中包括了大醫院、其他各級醫院還有診所，成立一個區域聯盟，這個其實是過去的一個成效，但是看起來這個數目字好像還不是很明顯。我覺得應站在民眾的立場上，我們來思考怎麼樣讓民眾能夠在社區當中就能夠找到一個他很信任的醫師，而且不管是什麼問題，包括家庭、個人、小孩、老人等等，都可以找到一個可以互動的醫師，甚至是醫師群。","其實這20年來，我們也成立社區醫療群，就是5到10個醫師成立一個家庭醫師群，這個部分已經成為國際之光。所以要好好善用，我覺得政府應該加強家庭醫師群的功能，讓民眾若有任何問題，就可以直接找他，讓民眾在這邊就可以得到很好的照顧，甚至要轉診的時候，也可以轉到一個最適當的醫師或是一個最適當的醫院，這對民眾來說是一個非常有效率的方式，如果能夠這樣的話，我相信民眾自然就會分級醫療。"],["王委員正旭：OK，期待透過轉診醫療，對他的健康照護提供最大的幫忙……"],["邱部長泰源：讓民眾對基層醫療、對社區醫療有信心，我們也真的給他照顧好，我想這是應該要做的重點！"],["王委員正旭：健保署有沒有什麼誘因呢？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，如同剛剛部長所揭示的大方向，就是如何壯大基層，讓民眾信任基層的服務，所以我們已經有多項的計畫，包含大嘉義計畫，如何協助基層診所提升它的智慧照顧、資訊能力，擴大它各項服務的內涵，豐富它的服務內涵，讓民眾可以得到一站式的服務，朝這個方向來努力。"],["王委員正旭：OK，好，希望能夠……"],["邱部長泰源：我補充一下，現在的人需要從健康促進、早期疾病預防、早期篩檢，能夠居家醫療，然後到最後的善終，在這整個過程當中，真的很需要社區醫療把它加強，有必要的話，就隨時轉到醫院，即雙向轉診非常的暢通，這真的才是維護人民健康最好的方式。"],["王委員正旭：好，感謝兩位。再來就是藥品穩定供應的部分，莊署長好像也有在現場，我們知道最近有兩個相關的子法做了公告，其中有四個修改的方向，根據統計，我們70%健保藥品的使用是透過國產的藥品在處理，可是它只占了總體藥費的22%，相對是偏低一些，如何能夠確保我們健保用藥供應的韌性跟穩定性，這部分目前除了四個修法方向以外，還有沒有其他政策上要讓更多民眾能夠理解，或者是讓製藥界也知道這樣的努力是可以讓我們的藥品供應韌性可以得到好的加強？因為我們都知道，不管是在治療、公衛或者是天災戰爭等等的這些韌性上，都是非常非常的重要。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員非常重要的垂詢，提供用藥安全跟品質，然後增加供應的韌性，是目前我們也很努力在做的，同時也具體提出一些相關的辦法。這個部分大概委員也有呈現了，至於有沒有更具體要說明的，請健保署石署長幫我們再補充一下。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們大概是從兩方面來做，一方面是鼓勵新藥的開發，就是國內新藥的開發，所以對於首發的新藥，或者是在國際上市兩年內可以到臺灣製造的新藥，或者是長期在國外，但是屬於國內的新成份的藥品，我們都會在這一次的修法裡面去提高給付的誘因。","另外，對於學名藥的部分，我們則有兩方面來做，一方面是我們今年開始實施對於生物相似性用藥的鼓勵措施來鼓勵醫療院所，這方面有額外的獎勵計畫，也就是論質計酬方案；另外，在藥價調整的時候，對於必要的藥品，該組裡面若是少於三個品項，當年我們就不調整這個部分的藥價。另外，對於抗生素的部分，因為全球抗藥性菌株的趨勢越來越嚴峻，所以我們對於抗生素也有特殊的藥價保障，大概是朝這些方向來做。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們希望民眾對於國產用藥更有信心，不然有時候大家都會擔心將來要怎麼處理才好，感謝。","再來就是關於再生醫療子法的部分，因為我們自從上半會期通過再生醫療雙法以後，大家都很期待這個年底16個子法可以完成，現在已經12月了，這個有機會完成嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個分兩個部分，一個是再生醫療法，再生醫療法我們要擬定9個子辦法，現在已經陸續完成草案了，預計大概在114年的第一季會進行法規的預告作業。有關於再生醫療製劑條例，這個部分我們會訂定7項子法規，其中一項已經在今年的10月19號完成法規的預告，現在剛好在蒐集各界的意見當中，目前其他的也陸續在進行。"],["王委員正旭：好，因為大家都很期待，尤其這個再生醫療很多很多民眾……"],["邱部長泰源：不過再生醫療很複雜，也很多元性，你看我們一個法就討論8年多。"],["王委員正旭：這個我了解。"],["邱部長泰源：所以子法規我們更是要很仔細把它落實。"],["王委員正旭：主席，我現在想問最後一個問題，關於強化麻醉安全部分，大家剛剛都已經很清楚了，衛福部目前有沒有什麼討論、規劃跟進度？還是可以在一個月或多久時間內給我們一個書面報告？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒有問題。我想我們趕快針對現在大家所垂詢的問題，立刻召集相關的單位、團體一起來討論，研擬出一個真的能夠保護民眾的做法，尤其是醫美診所能夠更加的安全、更加有品質。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。休息10分鐘。","休息（11時21分）","繼續開會（11時34分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。廖偉翔委員質詢完之後處理臨時提案，然後就休息20分鐘吃便當，不能有霸凌。","現在請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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我們會向全球性擴展包括 亞洲 大洋洲其他的各州 東南美洲只要他們有意願 興趣我們都會願意去協助他們來設立那經過設立的單位都是屬於當地的NGO組織僑委會是站在協府的立場給他們前幾年提供一定的補助"},{"start":341.357,"end":342.318,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":356.334,"end":359.596,"text":"第三個問題就是說僑委會辦理產學攜手合作的僑生專班107年到110年你們根據各個地方像馬來西亞、泰國、越南這些都僑台商需求的餐飲管理的服務為主但是最近還有國發會為了因應我國的產業用人的需求110年特別召開了僑生專班的轉型會議然後也針對了製造業營造業還有長照農業還有電子商務等五大類科"},{"start":385.754,"end":389.297,"text":"學生為主但是我發現僑生專班的實際招生的結果雖然17校開設的是試班但報到人數的話占預定招收人數進不到試程而其中選擇五大類科者與預期相當非常的大就相差很大那請問原因為何還有請問委員長對此問題你是否有什麼檢討的對策呢"},{"start":408.976,"end":437.507,"text":"好委員我把這個詳細的資料補充到您的辦公室再跟您進一步詳細說明好不好這數字有一點他寫錯了其實是這個是2022年也就是我們第一年開始擴大舉辦的那個時間但是我們預定招收人數應當不是這個6270那一年還在疫情的管制當中去年呢我們就已經突破5000多了今年我們已經6000多對我會把資料提供給您所以我們已經都超標跟打標了"},{"start":438.329,"end":440.156,"text":"好謝謝謝謝林宜君召委那委員長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":767,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時13分）謝謝主席，有請委員長。"],["主席：委員長請。"],["徐委員長佳青：林召委，您好。"],["林委員憶君：委員長好。因為今天時間有限，委員長只要重點、簡單回答我的三個問題。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["林委員憶君：僑委會主要的功能就是幫助全國僑胞在各地安居樂業，同時團結海外僑胞的民間力量，讓我們國家在國際上會更加地壯大。委員長，你知道嗎？我們在海外有很多僑團，現在會因為國內政黨的傾向不同，所以會有不同派系的團體，像我今年8月份到美國僑社的時候，就發現有涇渭分明的兩派──中華民國派和臺派，一個是全美台灣同鄉聯誼會，傾向自稱華人；另外一個是全美台灣同鄉會，自稱為台美人；還有一個更早成立的是中華會館，可能過去支持中華民國，但現在有點變動，內部甚至有些會員轉向支持中共。請問委員長，面對這麼尷尬的問題，你們如何溝通、協調？面對這樣的處理，尤其讓不同政黨立場的僑社也可以團結及意見一致呢？畢竟僑團就是我們臺灣民間外交最好的大使團嘛！所以我想面對這些外交的問題，委員長要如何處理呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：中華會館的成立，他們都是早期的中國移民、老僑，事實上不一定跟中華民國有發生關係，因為你看它成立的時間在一八九幾年就已經成立了。"],["林委員憶君：1882年。"],["徐委員長佳青：那時候中華民國都還沒有誕生嘛！但這些僑胞確實是早期促進中華民國在革命的時候、捐款很重要的力量之一，他們至今仍然是以支持自由民主的價值，所以我們跟這些傳統僑社近年來有更好地溝通，由於美中貿易戰等等的這種競合，大家逐漸看清楚中國的面目，包括這些傳統僑社，近年來在我們沒有給它任何利益的狀況下，他們認為臺灣比較優秀，所以又跟我們關係變得更加地穩健。","至於全美同鄉會跟聯誼會這兩個社團的差異性，這有一定的歷史發展，很多是因為臺灣早期、中華民國還在戒嚴時期的歷史產物所遺留下來，但是我在2020年之後來到僑委會，世界大概也已經繞了30、40個國家，我有一個很欣喜的發現，跟委員報告，不管現在是所謂的中華民國派或者是臺派，基本上大家已經有一個共識，就是第一個大家都from Taiwan、來自臺灣；第二個，對support臺灣自由民主也很有共識。所以我認為大家現在可以放棄過去對立的姿態，國內雖然有不同的政黨傾向，可是他們現在甚至可以一起辦升旗典禮，可以一起坐下來吃飯，我到訪的時候，大家也甚至都一起同臺高歌。我個人認為確實這幾個社團以前涇渭分明的狀態，在這幾年當中，因為臺灣整體的表現讓全世界、國際社會認同，他們在國際社會也認知到他們要講他們from Taiwan，才會受到更大的respect，所以雙方立場有趨近一致的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：好。第二個問題，委員長，你知道現在有關對岸中國大陸的孔子學院，近期在西方已經關閉了不少……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["林委員憶君：據本席瞭解，設置在美國大學的孔子學院也剩不到5個，雖然西方國家對孔子學院的質疑聲量非常高，但是國際媒體現在發現孔子學院在阿拉伯世界的中東，還有北非、非洲地區、南美洲的數量開始持續地擴張，而且成為重點發展地區，請問僑委會有沒有掌握呢？有沒有做好相關的因應呢？因為你們的報告內容有寫到114年要強化全球布局，委員長，你有沒有信心讓臺灣華語文學習中心可以進駐這些國家，還是設立更多間，來取代孔子學院呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：事實上，我們跟孔子學院完全不在同一個level，因為它是政治上的大外宣。我們開設華語文學習中心，事實上是對各個國家的文化融合，或者是族群和諧共處都有很好地幫助，這三年多的時間，在美國以及歐洲十多個國家經過這樣的執行，都受到各國的歡迎，包括像美國國務院都還主動幫我們宣傳，我們也樂觀其成在下一個階段的中長程期計畫時，在2026年開始，我們會擴大到全球，所以就不只設限在歐洲或是美國，可能包括其他的洲，像歐洲以外的……"],["林委員憶君：所以還是會持續擴展就對了，是不是？"],["徐委員長佳青：是的！我們會向全球擴展，包括亞洲、大洋洲、其他的各洲、中南美洲，只要他們有意願及興趣，我們都會願意去協助他們來設立，因為設立的單位都是屬於當地的NGO組織，僑委會是站在協輔的立場，前幾年提供給他們一定的補助跟師資培育及教材，所以經過這四年執行跟試驗的成果，我們有信心接下來下一個階段從2026年開始，我們會向全球做這樣的布局。"],["林委員憶君：好。第三個問題，僑委會辦理產學攜手合作的僑生專班，從107年到110年，你們根據各個地方，像馬來西亞、泰國、越南等，以僑臺商需求的餐飲管理服務為主，而國發會為了因應我國產業用人需求，110年特別召開僑生專班轉型會議，以招收製造業、營造業、長照、農業及電子商務等五大類科學生為主。但是我發現僑生專班的實際招生結果，雖然有17校開設44班，但報到人數竟不到預定招收人數的四成，且選擇五大類科者與預期相差非常大，請問原因為何？委員長，對此你有什麼檢討對策？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我把詳細補充資料送到您辦公室，再跟您進一步詳細說明，好不好？因為數字寫錯了。其實我們是從2022年開始擴大舉辦，至於預定招收人數應當不是6,270的四成，那年還在疫情管制當中，但去年已經突破五千多，今年已經六千多。所以我會把資料提供給您，其實我們不只達標，甚至超標。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君召委，委員長請回。","今天已登記質詢委員除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有王義川委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報，相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復或要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分；二、審查114年度\n中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） ( 一) 莊守耕公益基\n金、(二)受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金基金","agenda_id":"1140801_00002"}}},{"id":"158160","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158160","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1e369eb0f2413e636e99a743e0426cc758f00481bd910a0738bbdb5b55d1651485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:06:33 - 11:13:08","影片長度":"00:06:35","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（詢答及處理）\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） 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,"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":2.739,"text":"主席 楊全發言 邀請委員長來 委員長請"},{"start":10.421,"end":39.289,"text":"養護員您好您好我們再來討論留住人才的議題面對少子化跟高齡化的這個嚴重問題那麼我們缺工已經成為重大的這個危機所以這是政府必須要去面對的一個議題那麼所以如何能夠留住僑生也是我們僑委會非常的重要僑生的人才有很多都很精準而且很棒的"},{"start":40.049,"end":63.659,"text":"那所以僑委會你們擴大培育及留用僑生計劃你在112年到115年當中我們看到僑生的人數是17000多那麼海青班的部分是3100多但是我們看到去年你的目標你的目標你這個僑生留台評點的制度裡頭留用的是3544人"},{"start":65.78,"end":72.822,"text":"那所以產權合作的這個專班的僑生入學5178人海清班的600個那不過三項的這個數字告訴你也就是都沒有達標比你預期的都沒有達標"},{"start":83.966,"end":111.9,"text":"甚至前兩項實際上我們目標要簽人但是也都沒有在這樣的情況之下你要怎麼樣協助僑生畢業後能夠留在臺灣解決臺灣的缺工問題這第一個萬一如果他願意要回到他的母國那你可以不可以協助在母國的這個臺商這個公司那這樣子也可以兩全其美請說明"},{"start":113.889,"end":129.261,"text":"謝謝楊委員我很同意楊委員的提醒就是說怎麼樣讓培育過的學生可以盡可能的留下來為我所用那去年開始因此我們就發現說用可能一個"},{"start":130.282,"end":130.842,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":148.757,"end":174.842,"text":"所以本席要求你你把你們去年在做的沒有辦法達到你自己預計的標準你要怎麼樣去精準改善這是本席要聽的你順便資料給本席第二個本席跟你討論語言的部分華語現在很多人全世界很多人都尤其外國人他非常的希望學習華語需求是高的需求是高的"},{"start":175.442,"end":199.154,"text":"但是而且也是我國展現國力很重要的一個基準點這個華語你認不認同我很認同很認同我們來討論本席也跟你討論過也就是你們這111年到114年你的總經費4.4億多你以美國跟歐洲為基準橋上成立台灣華語文學習中心你希望能夠"},{"start":200.675,"end":211.584,"text":"讓當地的人可以來學習那麼你也介於施肢培育教材供應數位學習這樣的方式以及文化的活動但是我看到你的你訂定的22項關鍵的指標裡頭你只有6項他是達標16項不是不達標"},{"start":218.47,"end":224.134,"text":"所以你等於七層桌都不達標為什麼僑委會你每一次自己制定的目標都不達到這個本錢很納悶欸以你的能力不應當如此欸為什麼會如此所以我要請教委員長這個部分你要怎麼樣去解決哪有一個政府的部門你自己定出來22項16項都沒有達標各位太離譜了"},{"start":244.407,"end":248.589,"text":"這個方案是在疫情期間開辦然後開辦的時候呢確實當時會有一些資訊的評估在之前有一些落差那去年我開始接受這個職務做這個方案的時候我們就開始跟國發會討論我們這個22項指標是不是合理所以我們現在已經大幅的改變我們的指標今年我們就達標的這個成績就提高很多"},{"start":270.899,"end":287.984,"text":"提高很多還是沒有達標所以本市要不要求你把你改進的方案要怎麼做你會集中在歐美地區嗎未來下一階段的目標會開放全球開放全球不是只有集中在歐美地區嗎沒有了我們4年的計畫結束以後就會開放全球"},{"start":288.504,"end":307.374,"text":"方案要怎麼做因為一個政府達到七成都不達標這個很離譜所以你要怎麼樣去改善你順便資料給本席你的答案是未來是全球信託的我最後給你一個功課一分鐘就好我給你一個功課因為我本席上次跟你討論過也就是我們的智能委員會"},{"start":308.715,"end":329.163,"text":"你由原先的這個1.0的哀喬卡到現在智慧型的2.0這個哀喬卡你反而在你的2.0二代裡頭你申請的數字反而是更少現在所有的卡上次本席跟討論過你還沒有把你精準方案給本席因為到現在你們申請的這個卡只達到海外僑民的3%"},{"start":335.285,"end":336.306,"text":"過去第一代是花了五年才達到十萬張"},{"start":352.876,"end":357.178,"text":"第二代這個愛喬卡我們只用兩年的時間到現在為止其實已經差不多8萬多張了所以我們以每年的速度來說我們其實是超前以前很多委員長本集告訴你一個答案目前所申請的只有達到海外僑民的3%你要怎麼去解決委員你這個數字是7月的我們現在已經到12月了對"},{"start":375.507,"end":378.65,"text":"委員這是7月的數字我們現在已經8萬了所以總統統是海外僑民的三趴你要怎麼樣這麼好的為什麼人家不願意去做好對不對你應該把你的基金方案給本席你要怎麼樣達到你的目標我們繼續提供好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":722,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時6分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請委員長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：委員長，請。"],["徐委員長佳青：楊委員，你好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你好。我們再來討論留住人才的議題。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：面對少子化跟高齡化的嚴重問題，缺工已經成為我們重大的危機，這是政府必須要去面對的議題，所以如何能夠留住僑生也是我們僑委會非常重要的工作，僑生的人才有很多都很精準而且很棒的。僑委會「擴大培育及留用僑生計畫」在112年到115年當中，我們看到僑生的人數是一萬七千多，海青班的部分是三千一百多，其中我們看到去年你的目標，僑生留臺評點的制度裡頭留用的是3,544人，產學合作專班的僑生入學人數是5,178人，海青班是600個，不過3項的數字告訴你，跟你預期的相比都沒有達標，甚至前兩項實際與目標差超過千人，在這樣的情況之下，你要怎麼樣協助僑生畢業後能夠留在臺灣，解決臺灣的缺工問題？這是第一個。如果他願意回到母國，你可以不可以協助在母國的臺商公司？這樣子也可以兩全其美，請說明。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝楊委員。我很同意楊委員的提醒，就是怎麼樣讓培育過的學生可以盡可能地留下來為我所用，去年開始，我們發現比較好的方式就是在他畢業前，我們就開辦就業博覽會，去年開始做了第一次，有51家國內企業來參加我們的就業博覽會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我現在所說的就告訴你，去年的成績沒有達你的標，所以本席要求你，你們去年在做的沒有辦法達到你自己預計的標準，要怎麼樣去精準改善？這是本席要聽的，請提書面資料給本席。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二個，本席跟你討論語言的部分，現在全世界很多人、尤其外國人非常地希望學習華語，需求是高的，而且華語也是我國展現國力很重要的基準點，你認不認同？"],["徐委員長佳青：我很認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很認同，我們來討論，本席也跟你討論過，也就是你們在111年到114年的總經費四點四億多，你以美國跟歐洲為基準，遴選僑校成立臺灣華語文學習中心，希望能夠讓當地人可以來學習，也藉由師資培育、教材供應、數位學習的方式以及文化的活動，但是我看到你訂定的22項關鍵指標裡，只有6項是達標，16項是不達標，等於七成多都不達標，為什麼僑委會每一次自己制定的目標都不能達到？本席很納悶耶！以你的能力不應當如此，為什麼會如此？所以我要請教委員長，你要怎麼樣解決這個部分？哪有一個政府部門自己訂出22項，卻16項都沒有達標，這也太離譜了！"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，這個方案是在疫情期間開辦，當時確實會有一些資訊的評估，在之前有一些落差，去年我開始接受這份職務執行這個方案的時候，我們就開始跟國發會討論這22項指標是不是合理，所以現在已經大幅地改變我們的指標……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把你討論的……"],["徐委員長佳青：今年我們達標的成績就提高很多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：提高很多但還是沒有達標……"],["徐委員長佳青：有！已經達標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要求把你改進的方案要怎麼做……你會集中在歐美地區嗎？會不會？"],["徐委員長佳青：未來下一階段的目標會開放全球。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：開放全球嘛！不是只有集中在歐美地區……"],["徐委員長佳青：對！沒有了，我們四年的計畫結束以後，就會開放全球。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請把你的方案要怎麼做，因為一個政府七成都不達標，這個很離譜，所以你要怎麼樣去改善，請書面資料給本席。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的答案未來是全球性的。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的、是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我最後給你一個功課，1分鐘就好。我給你一個功課，本席上次跟你討論過，也就是我們的智能委員會，由原先1.0的i僑卡，到現在智慧型2.0版的i僑卡，在2.0版的二代裡，申請的數字反而是更少，上次本席跟你討論過，你還沒有把精準方案給本席，因為到現在你們申請的這個卡只達到海外僑民的3%，對這樣的政策，本席提問的三項都沒有達標，既然你說得這麼好、2.0這麼好，反而申請的更少，你要怎麼解決？"],["主席：請摘要回答。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，摘要回答。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。過去第一代是花了五年才達到10萬張，第二代i僑卡，我們只用兩年的時間，到現在為止，其實已經差不多八萬多張了，以每年的速度來說，我們其實是超前以前很多。"],["主席：後續是不是可以用書面回答？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：委員長，本席告訴你一個答案，目前所申請的只有達到海外僑民的3%，你要怎麼去解決？你要去解決的那個方案……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，你這個數字是7月的，現在我們已經到12月了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！本席有寫到……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，這是7月的數字，我們現在已經8萬了。"],["主席：楊委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以總共是海外僑民的3%，你要怎麼做？如果是這麼好，為什麼人家不願意去申請，對不對？你應該把你的精進方案給本席，你要怎麼樣達到你的目標，我們持續追蹤，好不好？"],["主席：請僑委會提供數字跟內容給楊委員，以回復其詢答的題目，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝楊委員關心的議題，我們會持續地提供，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：還有你們要注意一下計算的母數，因為我印象你們有一個僑民的計算是四千八百多萬人，不要用那個當母數，用那個當母數，開玩笑……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們現在都是以有跟中華民國的關係……"],["主席：好，沒關係，對楊委員關心的題目，請用書面報告寫清楚給他。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["主席：接下來進行詢答委員馬文君委員，馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","接下來進行詢答委員林憶君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部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的一個基礎上和範圍上來監督行政權所以民意代表同時擔任行政機關各類審議的委員當然不合理啊 對不對"},{"start":135.052,"end":147.278,"text":"對阿所以工程會才會預告修正這個草案的原因也在這裡然後社會輿論也討論過了大家都覺得不合理阿那就你了解你覺得不合理嘛衛福部有沒有類似這樣的狀況"},{"start":150.069,"end":159.099,"text":"有沒有?你就你組織來,有沒有?對啊,你的評選委員啊,各類的行政組織的委員會的運作,你行政部門的各類的組織的各委員會的運作有沒有這種狀況,你知不知道?"},{"start":172.613,"end":198.211,"text":"主席委員好衛福部目前我們所知這個事情是沒有那所屬機關到目前為止沒有報過來過你說所屬機關怎樣沒有報上來過衛福部都沒有所屬機關你不知道意思是這樣子嘛來你不知道我給你報備來啦我們PowerPoint的給他看一下啦你看有人就自動上去了"},{"start":199.505,"end":204.25,"text":"有人自動上台了我都還沒有請署長上台他自己就上台了"},{"start":206.314,"end":217.537,"text":"署長自己知道啦健保署下的相關會議全民健康保險藥物共同擬定會議這個會議這麼重要哦重要哦他在決定啊什麼藥物要不要納入健保給付這個會議就是標準的行政權啊有行政決策權啊"},{"start":231.847,"end":246.076,"text":"這樣的一個會議裡面,這個共領會議,簡稱共領會議,現在,現在,仍然有專家委員,號稱專家委員是現職的民意代表。23、24年,兩年的名單。"},{"start":252.382,"end":262.232,"text":"結果暴力法院今年2月報到以後他也沒有辭職以自己黨的最高道德標準來看他決定要辭職他沒有辭了他沒有辭的狀況裡面"},{"start":268.057,"end":293.874,"text":"開了七次會議請假三次他自己請假三次參與四次我並不想針對他但是單純就事論事我在這裡提醒衛福部你們在各個機關下的審議會議設置要點或辦法當中要不要需不需要把民意代表是不是擔任相關委員會的委員要不要進行盤點"},{"start":298.037,"end":307.104,"text":"你們又不要把所有的辦法規定回去改一改,避免立法權跟行政權混亂混淆。部長。好,謝謝委員的主教。我們會回去做整體的檢討。你不敢說要改,你要檢討。什麼叫檢討?"},{"start":322.82,"end":340.654,"text":"檢討就是要改的然後要怎麼改你的各個委員會還有立法委員在裡面擔任委員嗎立委又兼行政決策權然後又說他來監督行政部門你自己都行政決策權然後監督你說要回頭去監督行政部門這不是笑話嗎署長你怎麼說要改"},{"start":345.585,"end":360.318,"text":"跟委員報告剛好這個任期也到了我們現在正在全面的檢討那個下一任就是明年 二五二六會不會再有立委擔任委員我們會審慎的審慎你不敢說不會你不敢說不會你還要續聘他嗎"},{"start":366.485,"end":369.648,"text":"因為我們現在委員都還沒有這個委員佔了一個民間代表的缺他用民間代表的身份進去裡面當委員据有行政決策權"},{"start":379.198,"end":398.705,"text":"人家民間都沒其他的人啊。一會兒在裏面,自己就可以監督行政機關了。還有理由在民間的發言機制代表民間去佔位子嗎?再來,立委以專家學者的身份在你們的會議裡面發言,我問你啦,這個立委對你預算有生殺大權。你們在開會的時候,"},{"start":402.679,"end":419.522,"text":"你敢對他所的意見提出不同意見嗎?他可以監督行政機關：有掌握你們的預算權：很多人都只能夠接受他所提出來的意見這一種立委當委員你們敢違逆他的意見嗎?你現在不跟我說嗎?跟委員報告一句話有這種立委做委員的嗎?不要說人啦!不一定是他啦!"},{"start":432.858,"end":434.439,"text":"你敢敢敢的什麼呢?立委自己做、立委自己去行政院內、行政部門內做委員又有行政決策權又有立委對行政的預算監督權都一共的贏"},{"start":452.814,"end":480.06,"text":"現在還有嗎?你這麼不敢說?不會啦 這個跟委員報告當然過去這個陳委員齁長期是我們專家委員是我們專家會議的委員很久長期單院立委的時候就應該要知道角色衝突違反三權分立又是行政權又是立法權又是行政決策權又有立法院的監督預算權像話嗎?"},{"start":482.865,"end":486.307,"text":"你現在是他會代言的嗎,署長?不是針對他,我們就事論事。制度面!制度面改一改了啦!人家看到工程會被社會討論得沸沸揚揚了!"},{"start":500.917,"end":509.085,"text":"你們都還在那裏恃若無睹 部長你不知道 部長你的輸掉根本不知道 明明都知道 但是他有什麼不敢得罪立委 他的委就是因為是立委啦 所以不敢給他拿掉啦 這就是為什麼需要改革 這個就是為什麼今天輪到我在這裏當壞人的原因嘛"},{"start":526.946,"end":530.128,"text":"來你自己主動改革的甘需要關起來我都叫做派人所以這個由此可知啊立委又兼行政部門的委員多麼的多麼的憤 憾格多麼的衝突多麼的不合理"},{"start":547.318,"end":575.441,"text":"市長,您要回去改改,都要改改啦,好不好?好,我們會檢討來改進。好,那很好。那我要問下一個問題。下一個問題也很嚴重。一個女子在中山區某連鎖醫美中心打電波拉皮。麻醉後血氧濃度下降,送醫搶救不至。然後麻醉醫師就出來呼籲,所有類型的醫美麻醉都應該由麻醉專科醫師執行。我們大家看到都說奇怪,怎麼這麼嚴重?"},{"start":577.382,"end":585.465,"text":"部長,你12月9日出席衛福部活動的時候有受訪。你說,如果相關專科醫學會有任何建議,你們會立即召開討論,進一步強化規範。我現在問你,過去十年裡面,因為醫美麻醉而導致死亡的案例和案件數量有多少?"},{"start":601.283,"end":627.794,"text":"一件事我相信你今天在看來說這問題有多嚴重啊會覺得一個個案過去十年過去十年因為醫美麻醉而死亡多少案例?報告委員我想我們品質安全就是這不是啦你就告訴我數量就好了不要講東講西的啦一、四、四你不知道你們看到這個個案發生你們都無動於衷嗎?"},{"start":630.976,"end":655.489,"text":"統計數據這次在過去裏面是沒有的,這缺點先跟...沒有,可是你看到個案發生了,你不會想說我快要看了,你看醫事司司長,你不會想到說這個問題有多嚴重嗎?去做電波拉皮的女性有多少、男性有多少,你不會覺得風險有多少跟你醫事司的業務有關,你不會聯想到嗎?你不覺得你有保護人民的權利義務、權利嗎?"},{"start":658.365,"end":685.051,"text":"所以我們這次是先了解到使用的藥物是所謂的POPOPO這個藥物是需要做…市長!你不要跟我講你有多關心啦!連一年多少個案發生麻醉死亡在醫美裡面你不知道我覺得你很害怕啦!我再問你一下你總是要去分析這些醫美麻醉產生醫療糾紛的案例的亂象有哪些吧那你才能想說你要怎麼去改善這一些亂象吧"},{"start":686.391,"end":692.595,"text":"你怎麽不能向你們部長說,誒,待會兒麻醉醫學會,醫學會來歡迎起來我就來討論。誒,中央沒有掌握問題,沒有分析亂象,然後叫醫學會、民間組織提對策,這樣不好做,您這醫事室司長太好做啊,您這部長太好做啊,如果這樣我林淑芬就可以來做啊。"},{"start":710.166,"end":724.937,"text":"報告委員真的我從我以前擔任醫師公會的幹部以後我非常清楚這整個醫美的管理所以這大概這10年來醫師是真的非常用很多的心因為醫美麻醉產生的糾紛"},{"start":731.401,"end":734.164,"text":"到底有多嚴重啊?你說你們很勇敢啊!你們說你們很多人在管理啊!你就告訴我問題有多嚴重?你說不出來說你們很勇敢在這裡睜眼說瞎話嘛!我跟你講安全就最重要可是你連安全的課題你都沒有掌握"},{"start":753.183,"end":758.807,"text":"你現在根據特定醫療技術檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法第25、29只有執行第25條的第7、第8大類第7項8大類特定美容醫學手術的全身麻醉或非全身麻醉的靜脈注射麻醉你們才規定要有麻醉專科醫師執行你們認為中度及輕度的這個鎮靜麻醉不需要專科醫師執行"},{"start":783.383,"end":808.458,"text":"然後你們在這裡就告訴我們說來怎麼都很注重安全而這一次出事情的你們都知道是用所謂舒眠麻醉這一種話術讓消費者讓去做電波拉棉覺得說舒眠睡一下而已嘛舒眠麻醉然後其實你們打的是牛奶針你們自己都知道這個叫婆婆佛牛奶針"},{"start":812.95,"end":832.491,"text":"麻醉專科醫師蘇柏川表示,市面上主張的牛奶針大多都是深度鎮靜。現實上,只要俗稱牛奶針的Provo,都應該全部要找麻醉專科醫師。"},{"start":834.213,"end":851.067,"text":"中度鎮靜容易因為外界刺激減少或病患個人的因素瞬間會掉到深度鎮靜而病患在深度鎮靜的時候如果發生呼吸道阻塞只有5分鐘可以搶救所以站在安全的立場你們說你們管很多你們這一點就完全中放沒得管"},{"start":856.631,"end":872.269,"text":"所有的麻醉這種使用到牛奶針全部要麻醉專科醫師您沒有規範高雄長庚醫院麻醉部教授及的主治醫師吳少群有說醫美打電波清醒可以講話叫做中度鎮靜"},{"start":874.651,"end":886.437,"text":"打電波完全睡著叫深度鎮靜而深度鎮靜是最危險的一種麻醉方式非常容易呼吸抑制或心血管中樞抑制只有具專業的麻醉專科醫師在床監測才能確保病人安全"},{"start":895.162,"end":901.205,"text":"食藥署自己也說：食藥署的先翁稿說牛奶這一需要由專業醫師給藥使用過程必須由醫療人員持續監測病患的心臟及呼吸功能避免因藥物過量導致呼吸衰竭而死亡而台灣在2020年當時的麻醉醫學會的理事長陳坤寶他在撰寫美容醫學這個麻醉的時候也提到"},{"start":921.414,"end":949.929,"text":"靜脈全身麻醉是現行美容醫學為整形也漸漸在使用全身麻醉作為主要麻醉的方式是一種趨勢喔!欸!為整形現在很流行全身麻醉靜脈全身麻醉喔!你敢這樣管然後呢一定要有麻醉專科醫師在場否則一旦出事不堪後果不堪設想"},{"start":951.041,"end":951.181,"text":"同一個醫生．"},{"start":968.584,"end":986.956,"text":"同時執行兩項業務部長你覺得合適嗎?我又是麻醉科醫師我同時執行麻醉我又做電波拉皮的手術我同時在做這個手術你覺得一個醫生做兩個工作適合嗎?同時有關於這一點應該要有兩位醫師在處理"},{"start":996.813,"end":999.881,"text":"對,台灣麻醉醫學會吳少群李氏在他寫的"},{"start":1001.738,"end":1027.441,"text":"常見的麻醉迷思和安全建議如下實務上手術醫師因為要專注在手術如果又分心兼職麻醉常常因為受製者會動而他就會一直加深劑量或是給到受製者不動了卻忘了要頻繁監測受製者的生理治療重新評估一條降維持劑量"},{"start":1028.502,"end":1028.802,"text":"我們規定就是要兩位醫師"},{"start":1055.891,"end":1078.732,"text":"沒有啦,你的手術都沒有規定要麻醉專科醫師在那裡了,還什麼兩位醫師?你的手術本身就沒有規定要專科醫師執行麻醉了,還什麼兩個醫生?所以這樣你知道嗎?不好意思主席,你讓我這個主題問完了,這是一個安全的問題,我快說好了。所以我現在說這個這樣"},{"start":1081.598,"end":1105.026,"text":"你覺得醫美診所為了省下那個錢買來要加上沒規定衛福部醫事師沒有規定啦對醫美沒有這麼多規定啦那不要再講這個你知道各縣市喔核准施行特定美容醫學手術的醫療機構一共有幾家嗎醫美診所到今年全國有幾家你知道嗎應該是700多家"},{"start":1108.82,"end":1116.026,"text":"合準實行特定手術的啦。700多家。那你知道麻醉科人數全國一共有多少人嗎?"},{"start":1117.557,"end":1141.901,"text":"一千六百個不要講大醫院職業也不要講說有執照然後他會就業的光是你的醫美診所七百多家那大醫院的麻醉手術要怎麼進行所以台灣的麻醉專科醫師的量能夠嗎扣掉你說的七百多家的醫院他可以配置足夠的麻醉專科醫師嗎如果大家連個法律給丟回去大家都愛麻醉科醫師"},{"start":1146.549,"end":1147.45,"text":"欸?幹嘛搞?"},{"start":1147.45,"end":1171.118,"text":"所以部長你剛剛講的不可以手術醫師兼任麻醉業務這個叫驚罵醫美診所的常態在每次的醫美診所發生麻醉事故以後呢你們到底有沒有真的去反省每一次的不幸的事故都要成為你政策上除錯的反省的機制啊那你們剛才從剛才問到現在都沒有"},{"start":1176.255,"end":1197.131,"text":"您們有一個什麼東西可以把關醫美診所?我先補充幾件事。第一件事情陳國剛那個人在推詢的麻醉其實基本上面他為什麼要做危險分級的原因就是因為人力要用在最適當的位置那也因為這樣其實是由另外一個受過專業訓練的"},{"start":1198.672,"end":1203.977,"text":"其實所以訓練一起在協助醫生這才是重點你們的特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用的管理辦法只有第25條的第7項的八大類的特定美容醫學手術需要具備這個麻醉專科醫師啦而你們所謂的中度或輕度的鎮靜麻醉沒有規定啦他有需要訓練這個有寫"},{"start":1225.996,"end":1235.98,"text":"有訓練：現在就講手術醫師跟麻醉不能同一個人啦：這也是寫在裡面：這個就是最大的風險啦：現在寶弟我再跟你問啦：你們醫策會2019年其實有鑑於診所人力醫院資源不如醫院充足且沒有醫院評鑑這一種東西："},{"start":1248.946,"end":1256.731,"text":"所以為了推升診所整體美容醫學服務品質你們辦了一個診所美容醫學的品質認證就是以安全為基軸要強調專業人員的資格資訊的透明、環境的安全專業及安全的醫療行為突發事件緊急應變措施及客訴處理追蹤服務等就是你講的來反正你們做這些醫美診所的要去認證安全結果呢"},{"start":1276.943,"end":1282.008,"text":"你全部認證和有通過你們認證的有幾家你知道嗎現在應該診所的部分好像剩30幾家左右30幾家41家我看的是41家你全部你說700多家只有41家從2019年到現在5年了"},{"start":1299.345,"end":1316.686,"text":"五年你全部獲得認證的比例低成這個樣子叫做你們重視醫美診所的安全你這樣說出來是笑話嘛所以呢全台核准的施行特定美容醫學手術機構這些診所是不是都安全"},{"start":1317.679,"end":1323.426,"text":"你們的認證率這麼低,不到一成。你說這樣的醫美診所的品質足夠叫做安全嗎?你們的認證都是最基本的、最核心的。含你的認證的不敢參加。"},{"start":1332.958,"end":1347.747,"text":"而由此可知外面的醫美診所的品質安全多麼堪憂啊!我補充一下其實就是法規是樓地板,品質的要求是天花板所以在這個中間的...你賣大家玩文字遊戲!"},{"start":1348.928,"end":1363.917,"text":"那如果這麼樣子的話為什麼你認證五年的時間認證只有四十一家他在這邊其實是會牽涉到就是我覺得要問你這個不要講那麼多出事的這一家醫美診所有沒有通過你們認證你回答我應該是沒有應該是 阿來有勒這因為我不確定"},{"start":1372.316,"end":1375.558,"text":"蘇百川醫師來講喔你們在這個認證是以安全為基礎保障人民就醫的安全但是參與的診所偏少然後這個認證的項目分成兩類哪兩類"},{"start":1386.007,"end":1386.508,"text":"新聞報告及專題報告"},{"start":1407.071,"end":1407.131,"text":"這位蘇偉川講的"},{"start":1427.93,"end":1446.585,"text":"沒有所屬是診所自行去選填他要認證哪一類是要光電類還是手術類但是呢電波拉皮就是光電治療不會在醫策會現行診所的麻醉鎮靜安全查核的範圍內所以他如果認證為光電類認證何可"},{"start":1451.169,"end":1459.576,"text":"也不保證他的麻醉鎮靜安全的安全因為醫策會沒有集合這一個項目另外申請手術類人家醫美診所也有偷吃包我只要去選割雙眼皮就好了"},{"start":1470.504,"end":1471.705,"text":"因為割雙眼皮不在特管法規範的手術內．所以為依這位去認證．也不會特別去查有沒有符合麻醉規範．老實說啦,醫美診所．再去接一個麻醉專科醫師．"},{"start":1489.025,"end":1515.681,"text":"給開的大家都要寫這個字這個成本然後呢大家寫我光電類認證過了但是你的麻醉安全沒有其實政府不要管你我手術類認證過了但我申請的是雙眼皮然後消費者看不見看不見電波拉皮的光電類嘛然後你以為他手術安全認證了這麼好那我就選有認證的結果他的認證只有選割雙眼皮"},{"start":1518.8,"end":1525.523,"text":"不然這樣你聽得到嗎?你都不知道,你的問題很嚴重。你一、四、五、六、七、八、九、十幾年,個案發生了還是有動於中?沒有想到我整體的醫美診所、醫美的這一些要怎麼規範都沒在想,就要你為了這給你提起。不然這樣提起後,你聽得到嗎?要解釋嗎?"},{"start":1543.702,"end":1547.025,"text":"市長,那你在這裡承諾,市長你覺得就哪幾面向你要處理?我會覺得是第一個第一件事情其實是"},{"start":1561.072,"end":1562.933,"text":"那一個醫生同時執行麻醉又執行手術那要怎麼處理?"},{"start":1590.601,"end":1606.845,"text":"現況就是規定在美濃醫學這邊是不行的所以我才會說落實規定這件事情你們要去集合嗎?全國你說如果不行大家都這樣做呢那很簡單喔你去要求他執行這個叫電波拉皮執行什麼手術的然後他的專科醫師有用到這個蒸的牛奶蒸的"},{"start":1617.248,"end":1642.687,"text":"那她的醫師有使用麻醉科醫師嗎?麻醉科醫師有沒有蓋章?全國總機察就知道了啊,絕對沒有的嘛我會覺得是說落實這一塊其實是所有醫界都會很關心的然後怎麼樣在人力上面做到我現在講的是行政管理啦,行政管理沒有行政管理、沒有法規就等於是沒好大家講什麼都假"},{"start":1644.328,"end":1672.376,"text":"現在特管辦法裡面的美容醫療這一塊的輕度到中度就是需要兩個人的這件事情我覺得是我們可以來做弱勢的一項人家醫學會告訴你只要有牛奶針就絕對是必須要有麻醉科醫師啦不是一個人分四兩角啦對啊然後也不是中度的啦中度同時還要再把它煮下去讓它沒丁沒丁才比較好吸收對不對融液這個問題很嚴重你們要好好想一下"},{"start":1674.237,"end":1674.879,"text":"謝謝林淑芬"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1220,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時40分）主席，各位大家早。是不是請我們邱部長？"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["林委員淑芬：部長早。你當過立委嘛！你現在擔任部長，所以你應該清楚立法權跟行政權的差異，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員淑芬：對，你知道公共工程會在9月下旬的時候預告修正採購評選委員會組織準則第四條之一，它主要就是針對考量各級民意機關、民意代表擔任機關採購案的評選委員，有造成行政權和立法權兩者混淆衝突的可能，所以進行修法。部長，你知道這個事情嗎？你知道這件事情嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有了解得那麼詳細，但是這樣的方向是對的。"],["林委員淑芬：這事情很大條，你沒看過喔？好吧，方向是對的，你認為有沒有必要啦？對吧？你覺得他們這樣修正有沒有必要？不知道？簡單來說，採購評選委員會的委員，你民意代表不能夠去擔任啦！"],["邱部長泰源：這個應該是這樣子。"],["林委員淑芬：應該是這樣子，因為我們從小公民課本就教學生三權分立或是五權分立。"],["邱部長泰源：是、是。"],["林委員淑芬：立法權跟行政權本身就有各自的權責，憲法第六十三條，你知道我們當立委的，立法院有議決法律案、預算案、戒嚴案、大赦案、宣戰案、媾和案、條約案及國家其他重要事項之權。我們立法權就是在這樣一個基礎上和範圍上來監督行政權，所以民意代表同時擔任行政機關各類審議的委員，當然不合理啊，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。我想……"],["林委員淑芬：所以工程會才會預告修正這個草案的原因也在這裡，然後社會輿論也討論過了，大家都覺得不合理啊，就你了解，你覺得不合理嘛！衛福部有沒有類似這樣的狀況？有沒有？就你所知，有沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：評審委員有沒有民意代表的問題？"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，你的評選委員，各類行政組織委員會的運作，你行政部門各類組織的各委員會的運作有沒有這種狀況？你知不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：由主責的秘書處處長說明。"],["林委員淑芬：好，有沒有？"],["許處長朝程：主席、委員好。目前我們所知衛福部這個事情是沒有，所屬機關到目前為止沒有報過來過。"],["林委員淑芬：你說所屬機關怎樣？"],["許處長朝程：沒有報上來過。"],["林委員淑芬：衛福部都沒有，所屬機關你不知道，意思是這樣子嘛！來，你不知道，我給你報備，來啦，我們的PowerPoint給他看一下啦，你看有人就自動上去了，有人自動上臺了，我都還沒請署長上臺，他自己就上臺了，署長自己知道啦，健保署下的相關會議，全民健康保險藥物共同擬定會議，這個會議重要不重要？重要喔！它在決定什麼藥物要不要納入健保給付，這個會議就是標準的行政權，有行政決策權，這樣的一個會議裡面，簡稱共擬會議，現在仍然有專家委員，號稱專家委員是現職的民意代表，這是23、24年兩年的名單，結果到立法院今年2月報到以後，他也沒有辭職，以自己黨的最高道德標準來看，他絕對要辭職，他沒有辭啦，但沒有辭的狀況裡面，開了7次會議，請假3次，他自己請假3次，參與4次，我並不想針對他，但是單純就事論事，我在這裡提醒衛福部，你們在各個機關下的審議會議設置要點或辦法當中，要不要、需不需要把民意代表適不適合擔任相關委員會的委員來進行盤點？你們要不要把所有的辦法規定回去改一改，避免立法權跟行政權混亂、混淆？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，我們回去會做整體檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：你不敢說要改，你說要檢討，什麼叫檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：檢討就是要改的……然後要怎麼改……"],["林委員淑芬：你的各個委員會還有立法委員在裡面擔任委員嗎？立委兼行政決策權，然後又說他要來監督行政部門，他自己都有行政決策權，然後他說要回頭去監督行政部門，這不是笑話嗎？署長，你什麼時候要改？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，剛好這個任期也到了，我們現在正在全面檢討，下一任就是明年……"],["林委員淑芬：25、26會不會再有立委擔任委員？"],["石署長崇良：我們會審慎的……"],["林委員淑芬：審慎？你不敢說不會，你還要續聘他嗎？"],["石署長崇良：因為現在委員都還沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：這個委員占了一個民間代表的缺耶！他用民間代表的身分進去裡面當委員，具有行政決策權耶！難道民間都沒有其他的人了？他在立法院裡面當立委，自己就可以監督行政機關了，還有理由用民間的發言機制代表民間去占位置嗎？再來，以立委、專家學者的身分在你們的會議裡面發言，這個立委對你們的預算有生殺大權，你們在開會的時候，你敢對他的意見提出不同意見嗎？他可以監督行政機關、掌握你們的預算權，很多人都只能夠接受他所提出來的意見，這一種立委當委員，你們敢違逆他的意見嗎？你現在不敢說了吧？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告……"],["林委員淑芬：下一屆還有沒有這種立委當委員的？不要說是誰，不一定是他啦！你覺得可以嗎？自己當立委，還去行政部門裡面當委員，又有行政決策權，又有立委對行政的預算監督權，都他說的贏啊！現在到底是有還是沒有？你現在不敢說？"],["石署長崇良：不會啦！跟委員報告，當然過去陳委員長期是我們……"],["林委員淑芬：我都沒有講哦！"],["石署長崇良：是我們專家會議的委員很久了啦！長期……"],["林委員淑芬：長期？擔任立委的時候，就應該要知道角色衝突……"],["石署長崇良：不過我們明年會做調整。"],["林委員淑芬：違反三權分立，又是行政權、又是立法權，又是行政決策權、又有立法院的監督預算權，像話嗎？你現在是他的代言人嗎？署長。"],["石署長崇良：沒有，我說明年就會調整了。"],["林委員淑芬：不是針對他，我們就事論事，制度面改一改了啦！人家看到工程會被社會討論得沸沸揚揚了，你們都還在那裡視若無睹，部長你不知道，署長會不知道嗎？他明明都知道，但是他為什麼不敢得罪立委？就因為他是立委，所以不敢把他拿掉，這就是為什麼需要改革，這個就是為什麼今天輪到我在這裡當壞人的原因嘛！如果你們自己自動改一改，需要我今天在這裡當壞人嗎？由此可知，立委又兼行政部門的委員，多麼的扞格、多麼的衝突、多麼的不合理，部長，你回去把該改的都改一改，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會檢討改進。"],["林委員淑芬：那很好，那我問下一個問題，下一個問題也很嚴重。一個女子在中山區某連鎖醫美中心打電波拉皮，麻醉後血氧濃度下降，送醫搶救不治，然後麻醉醫師就出來呼籲，所有類型的醫美麻醉都應該由麻醉專科醫師執行，我們大家看到都覺得：奇怪，怎麼這麼嚴重？部長，你12月9號出席衛福部活動的時候有受訪，你說如果相關專科醫學會有任何建議，你們會立即召開討論，進一步強化規範。我覺得你好像抓不到重點，我現在問你，過去10年裡面，因為醫美麻醉而導致死亡的案例和案件數量有多少？一個事情發生，你就要趕快回去看看這個問題有多嚴重啊！難道會是只有一個個案而已？過去每年因為醫美麻醉而死亡的有多少案例？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想品質安全就是……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，你告訴我數量就好了，不要講東講西的啦！"],["邱部長泰源：數量的部分可能醫事司……"],["林委員淑芬：醫事司你不知道？你們看到這個個案發生，你們都無動於衷嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：統計數據在過去裡面是沒有的，這一點先跟……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有？可是你看到個案發生了，你不會想說我趕快回來看看，你是醫事司司長，你沒想到這個問題有多嚴重嗎？去做電波拉皮的女性有多少、男性有多少，你不會覺得風險有多少跟你醫事司的業務有關，你不會聯想到嗎？你不覺得你應該保護人民的權利嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：所以我們這次是先了解到使用的藥物是所謂的Propofol，這一個藥物是需要加強……"],["林委員淑芬：司長，你不要跟我講你有多關心啦！連一年多少個案在醫美裡面麻醉死亡都不知道，我覺得你很糟糕！。我再問你，你總是要去分析這些醫美麻醉產生醫療糾紛案例的亂象有哪些，然後你才能想說你要怎麼去改善這一些亂象吧！你總不能像你們部長說丟給麻醉醫學會，醫學會如果有反映上來，我就來討論。中央沒有掌握問題、沒有分析亂象，然後叫民間組織醫學會提對策。部長，這樣你們的醫事司司長太好當了，部長也太好當了，那我林淑芬就可以來當了，怎麼可以說都跟你們沒關係？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，從我以前擔任醫師公會的幹部，我非常清楚這整個醫美的管理，大概這10年來，醫事司是真的用很多的心……"],["林委員淑芬：這麼用心？我問你一年糾紛多少、亂象有多少、因為醫美麻醉產生的糾紛到底有多嚴重？你說你們很用心、你說你們出很多力在管理，那你就跟我說問題有多嚴重，你說不出來，還說你很用心？在這裡睜眼說瞎話嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：我們在品質的認證跟安全的維護，我想……"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你講，安全最重要，可是你連安全的課題都沒有掌握，根據特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法第二十五條及第二十九條，只有執行第二十五條的七項八大類特定美容醫學手術的全身麻醉或非全身麻醉的靜脈注射麻醉，你們才規定要由麻醉專科醫師執行，你們認為中度及輕度的鎮靜麻醉不需要由專科醫師執行。然後你們在這裡就告訴我們說你們都很注重安全，而這一次出事情的，你們都知道是用所謂舒眠麻醉這一種話術，讓去做電波拉皮的消費者覺得說舒眠麻醉只是睡一下而已，其實你們打的是牛奶針，你們自己都知道這個叫Propofol（牛奶針）。麻醉專科醫師蘇百川表示，市面上主張的牛奶針大多都是深度鎮靜，現實上只要俗稱牛奶針的Propofol都應該全部要找麻醉專科醫師，中度鎮靜很容易因外界刺激減少或病患個人的因素，瞬間掉到深度鎮靜，而病患在深度鎮靜的時候，如果發生呼吸道阻塞，只有5分鐘可以搶救。站在安全的立場，你們說你們管很多，你們這一點就完全縱放沒在管，這種使用到牛奶針全部要由麻醉專科醫師執行，你們卻沒有規範。高雄長庚醫院麻醉部教授級的主治醫師吳紹群也說，醫美打電波清醒可以講話叫做中度鎮靜，打電波完全睡著叫深度鎮靜，而深度鎮靜是最危險的一種麻醉方式，非常容易呼吸抑制或心血管中樞抑制，只有具專業的麻醉專科醫師在旁監測，才能確保病人安全。食藥署自己的新聞稿也說，牛奶針需要由專業醫師給藥，使用過程必須有醫療人員持續監測病患的心臟及呼吸功能，避免因藥物過量，導致呼吸衰竭而死亡。臺灣在2020年當時的麻醉醫學會理事長陳坤堡在撰寫麻醉相關文章的時候也提到，靜脈全身麻醉是現行美容醫學……微整型也漸漸在使用全身麻醉作為主要麻醉的方式，是一種趨勢。微整型現在很流行靜脈全身麻醉，你有在管嗎？他說一定要有麻醉專科醫師在場，否則一旦出事，後果不堪設想。然後就有人說，包括行政部門也說：不是啦，這個出事的醫生也有麻醉專科的執照，也有執行電波拉皮，他是兩個專科耶！現在問題來了，同一個醫生同時執行兩項業務，部長你覺得合適嗎？我又是麻醉科醫師，我執行麻醉，我同時又在做電波拉皮的手術，你覺得一個醫生做兩個工作適合嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有關於這一點，應該要有兩位醫師在處理。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！台灣麻醉醫學會吳紹群理事在他寫的文章中提到：常見的麻醉迷思和安全建議如下：實務上，手術醫師因為要專注在手術，如果又分心兼職麻醉，常常因為受制者會動，而他就會一直加深劑量，或是給到受制者不動了，卻忘了要頻繁監測受制者的生理指標，重新評估與調降維持劑量，如果沒有這樣子監測好的話，最後有可能會走向藥物過量或麻醉過深，導致嚴重的呼吸及血管抑制。所以你講的沒有錯，他專心在做手術，但是手術的時候這個人會動，然後他又做麻醉，既做手術又做麻醉，把人麻醉到他動彈不得，一個人有辦法做兩項工作嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們規定就是要兩位醫師。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦，針對手術都沒有規定要麻醉專科醫師在那裡了，還什麼兩位醫師？針對手術本身你們就沒有規定要專科醫師執行麻醉了，還說什麼兩個醫生？這樣你知道了嗎？","不好意思，主席，你讓我把這個主題問完，這是一個安全的問題，我趕快說完。你知道有多少醫美診所為了省下那個錢而亂來，加上衛福部醫事司對醫美沒有這麼多規定，你知道各縣市核准施行特定美容醫學手術的醫療機構一共有幾家嗎？醫美診所到今年全國有幾家你知道嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：應該是七百多家。"],["林委員淑芬：核准施行特定手術的有七百多家，那你知道麻醉科人數全國一共有多少人嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：一千六百多人。"],["林委員淑芬：1,600個，不要講在大醫院執業，也不要講有執照而未就業的，光是醫美診所就有七百多家，那大醫院的麻醉手術要怎麼進行？所以臺灣麻醉專科醫師的量能夠嗎？扣掉你說的七百多家，它可以配置足夠的麻醉專科醫師嗎？如果你們把法律訂下去，大家都必須要有麻醉科醫師，他們的量能夠嗎？部長，你剛剛講手術醫師不可以兼任麻醉業務，這個都是現在醫美診所的常態，在每次醫美診所發生麻醉事故以後，你們到底有沒有真的去反省？每一次的不幸事故，都要成為你政策上除錯的反省機制啊！結果我從剛才問到現在都沒有，你們有一個什麼東西可以把關醫美診所嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：我先補充幾件事：第一件事情，誠如剛剛委員在垂詢的，麻醉基本上為什麼要做危險分級的原因，就是因為人力要用在最適當的位置，也因為這樣，其實是由另外一個受過專業訓練的，所以訓練是一起協助醫生，這才是重點。"],["林委員淑芬：你都沒有講重點，你們的特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法只有第二十五條第七項的八大類特定美容醫學手術需要具備麻醉專科醫師，而你們所謂的中度或輕度的鎮靜麻醉沒有規定。"],["劉司長越萍：他有需要訓練，這個有寫。"],["林委員淑芬：有訓練，現在就講手術醫師跟麻醉不能同一個人，這就是最大的風險嘛。"],["劉司長越萍：這也寫在特管辦法裡面……"],["林委員淑芬：這個就是最大的風險。部長，我再問你，醫策會在2019年鑑於診所人力資源不如醫院充足，且沒有醫院評鑑這種東西，所以為了提升診所整體美容醫學服務品質，你們辦了一個診所美容醫學的品質認證，就是以安全為基軸，強調專業人員的資格、資訊透明、環境的安全，專業及安全的醫療行為、突發事件緊急應變措施及客訴處理、追蹤服務等，就是你講的，反正你們做了這些，醫美診所要去認證安全，結果呢？結果全部認證合格、通過你們認證的有幾家，你知道嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：診所的部分，現在好像剩三十幾家左右。"],["林委員淑芬：三十幾家？41家，我看的是41家，你說全部有七百多家，只有41家，從2019年到現在5年了，5年！全部獲得認證的比例低成這個樣子，叫做你們重視醫美診所的安全？你們這樣說出來的是笑話嘛！所以全臺核准施行的特定美容醫學手術機構，這些診所是不是都安全？你們的認證率這麼低，不到一成，你說這樣的醫美診所品質足夠安全嗎？你們的認證都是最基本的、最核心的，連你們的認證都不敢參加，由此可知外面醫美診所的品質安全多麼堪憂啊！"],["劉司長越萍：我補充一下，其實法規就是樓地板，品質的要求是天花板，所以在這個中間的……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要在這裡玩文字遊戲，如果這樣子的話，為什麼5年的時間，你們認證的只有41家？"],["劉司長越萍：在這邊其實牽扯到當時剛好碰到疫情……"],["林委員淑芬：我就要問你這個，不要講那麼多！出事的這家醫美診所有沒有通過你們認證？你回答我。"],["劉司長越萍：應該是沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：應該是啊？那如果有呢？"],["劉司長越萍：因為我不確定。"],["林委員淑芬：蘇百川醫師講，你們推這個認證是以安全為基礎，保障人民就醫的安全，但是參與的診所偏少，然後這個認證的項目分成兩類，哪兩類？"],["劉司長越萍：基本上是分成光電治療跟手術兩類。"],["林委員淑芬：對，美容手術分成光電跟手術，然後大家都講，如果要認證，不會認證全部，他們只做光電，就申請光電項目就好了。這次出事的是什麼？光電技術，因為進行光電認證的話，不會對麻醉鎮靜做安全稽核，對吧？因為是光電啊，他幹嘛對麻醉鎮靜的安全去稽核，不會嘛，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：這個細節我要確認。"],["林委員淑芬：好，這個是蘇百川講的，美容手術是診所自行去選填要認證哪一類，是要光電類還是手術類，但是電波拉皮就是光電治療，不會在醫策會現行診所的麻醉鎮靜安全查核的範圍內，所以如果在光電類認證核可，也不保證他的麻醉鎮靜是否安全，因為醫策會沒有稽核這一個項目；另外，申請手術類的醫美診所也有「偷吃步」，只要選割雙眼皮就好了，因為割雙眼皮不在特管法規範的手術內，所以醫策會認證也不會特別去查有沒有符合麻醉規範。老實說，醫美診所多請一個麻醉專科醫師就是多花錢的，大家都要省這個錢、省這個成本。若光電類認證過了，但是麻醉安全沒有過，其實政府不管你；手術類認證過了，但他申請的是割雙眼皮，消費者也看不懂，電波拉皮的就是光電類嘛，然後以為他手術安全認證了，這麼好！那就去選有認證的，結果他的認證只有選了割雙眼皮，部長，這樣你聽懂嗎？你都不知道問題這麼嚴重，醫事司內你讚美有加的司長，當個案發生了還是無動於衷，沒有想到整體醫美診所的醫美要怎麼規範，這些都沒在想，還要立委在這裡提醒你們！部長，我提醒完了之後，你聽懂了嗎？要改嗎？不要立委說完也沒用。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定馬上嚴肅來檢討，然後也請……"],["林委員淑芬：那司長你在這裡承諾，你覺得就哪幾個面向要處理？"],["劉司長越萍：我會覺得……"],["林委員淑芬：具體的。"],["劉司長越萍：第一件事情，原本我們過去在講的這個分類裡面，強化醫策會評鑑裡面的麻醉，特別是訓練這一塊怎麼去做強化，我覺得這是短時間就可以做到的；另外，怎麼加強訓練這件事情並落實規定，我覺得這應該是重新檢討要去優化的部分。"],["林委員淑芬：一個醫生同時執行麻醉又執行手術，那要怎麼處理？"],["劉司長越萍：現況規定在美容醫學這邊是不行的，所以我才會說落實規定這件事情是重點。"],["林委員淑芬：你們要去稽核嗎？你說不行，但大家都這樣做耶，那很簡單，你去要求他們，他們執行電波拉皮、執行什麼手術，專科醫師有用到牛奶針的，那他們有使用麻醉科醫師嗎？麻醉科醫師有沒有蓋章？全國總稽查就知道了，絕對沒有的嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：我覺得落實這一塊其實是所有醫界都會很關心的，然後怎麼樣在人力上面做到……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在講的是行政管理，沒有行政管理、沒有法規，就等於沒效，在這裡說什麼都是假的。"],["劉司長越萍：現在在特管辦法裡面，美容醫療這一塊的輕度到中度就是需要兩個人，這件事情我覺得是我們可以來落實的，以上。"],["林委員淑芬：人家醫學會告訴你，只要有牛奶針，就絕對必須要有麻醉科醫師，不是一個人分飾兩角，也不是中度的，他如果躺在那裡又幫他注射，讓他不能動彈才比較好手術，這樣問題就很嚴重，你們要好好想一下。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請王正旭，王正旭委員質詢完之後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","邱鎮軍","涂權吉"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行\n政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1140602_00002"}}},{"id":"158158","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158158","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1086083fe68f3b1bce99a743e0426cc758f00481bd910a073c103fba9c3d2f6a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:59:21 - 11:06:16","影片長度":"00:06:55","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（詢答及處理）\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） 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定宇：上下學期各5,000。那我就不懂了，一樣是臺灣人的子弟，在中國讀，補助每學年3萬5,000元；臺灣的子弟在吉隆坡讀，補助上學期5,000、下學期5,000，總共補助1萬，來源可能是不同的部會……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：但我必須要講，對一個臺商或者在海外的臺灣人來講，我的小孩就是臺灣小孩，吉隆坡的臺灣學校辦得不錯，我剛才念了它的成績，辦得不錯啊！課綱是108課綱，讀的是臺灣的書，課本也不會被人家塗黑黑的啊！"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：在中國的臺商學校，看到「中華民國」，還塗成黑字，國旗畫成黑旗，還要審批教科書。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：在中國要被審查，結果一個學生補助三萬五，我沒有意見，那是我們臺灣的子弟，父母在中國經商，孩子有必要受教育，我們的納稅人補助自己的子弟，OK的，那為什麼我們臺商在馬來西亞就補助1萬塊而已？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，這部分的補助全部都是來自教育部。"],["王委員定宇：對啊。"],["徐委員長佳青：預算也都編列在教育部。"],["王委員定宇：你覺得合理嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我也覺得應該要有一致性，重點在於我們在東南亞其實有總共5所：越南、泰國、馬來西亞……"],["王委員定宇：我知道的有4所……"],["徐委員長佳青：印尼有2所，在東北亞，事實上日本有3所……"],["王委員定宇：臺灣學校。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，臺灣學校，或者華僑學校，我們叫做中華學校。事實上這個補助的金額，我的理解是教育部自己去訂的，重點是東南亞這5個學校他們現在不是全部都是臺灣、中華民國籍的學生，他們也有相當外籍的……"],["王委員定宇：我知道，我一開始就說有8個國家的學生嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：我現在講的是我們臺灣的子弟在海外讀臺灣學校，像吉隆坡這所就叫Taiwan School，從幼兒園到高三，然後它升國旗、用我們的課綱，很好啊！那教育部……"],["徐委員長佳青：對，基本上用的跟臺灣的學校一致。"],["王委員定宇：我們這一次去，我跟林憶君召委都在那裡，我們都承諾這個不公平，在中國讀臺商小學、臺商中學，一學年補助三萬五，為什麼馬來西亞、越南就一學年補助1萬？不公平嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們願意當你的後盾跟教育部談……"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["王委員定宇：就是說，對於這樣子優良的學校，它如果用的是別國的課綱、名字又隱晦、課程被審查、老師用外國人，我沒有意見，可是這個是臺灣學校，用我們的課綱、我們的教材、是我們自己的子弟。就像我們在臺灣，有些人跑去讀美國學校，學費很貴啦。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，確實單單從學生補助上面是有點不公平，不過我們有額外給這些其他非中國的學校，包括教材跟師資……"],["王委員定宇：你要講，我也可以羅列在中國的臺商小學，該有的都有，都不一樣，我現在講的是，一樣的名目叫做學費補助，針對臺裔、臺籍學生的學費補助，今天他在馬來西亞、在越南、在印尼，我們現在是一學年補助1萬塊，可是他如果是在中國那邊讀臺商小學……"],["徐委員長佳青：是三萬五。"],["王委員定宇：是一學年3萬5,000塊，我覺得……"],["徐委員長佳青：確實很不公平。"],["王委員定宇：講不出一個道理來嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：講不出一個道理，一樣都是臺灣人，讀的東西，坦白講，在東南亞讀的東西還更像臺灣的，他百分之一百高中畢業都到臺灣讀大學，所以我覺得不患寡而患不均，你們要跟教育部談。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["王委員定宇：我覺得我們那天去看，3個黨的委員都認為這該處理。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們那天在那邊，大家都認為該處理，所以請你正式跟教育部講，這幾所用著我們國家的國旗、臺灣的名稱、臺灣的108課綱、臺灣的教材，子弟又是我們臺灣的子女的話，沒有道理人家補助三萬五，他們只補助1萬而已。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["王委員定宇：而且對他們來講，當然外籍生，它收韓國的、收別國的，收費高一點，就像美國學校在臺灣收費很高一樣，我沒有意見，我講的是我們國人的子弟，這樣好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["王委員定宇：這件事情我會追蹤進度，也請委員長，你可能要跟教育部溝通。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["王委員定宇：至少我們有去過的委員都願意當你的後盾，把這個事情處理好。"],["徐委員長佳青：非常感謝委員對我們大力的協助，這些僑校真的辦學都辦得非常地辛苦，但是他們的品質也非常優良。"],["王委員定宇：你還是要去監督……"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["王委員定宇：不好的還是要檢討，但是我剛才講這個公平性至少要建立起來。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，好。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝委員長。","接下來有請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分；二、審查114年度\n中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） ( 一) 莊守耕公益基\n金、(二)受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金基金","agenda_id":"1140801_00002"}}},{"id":"158157","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158157","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a124cded5adaef77cbe99a743e0426cc75049c5ec402f88f0fbebb33ff5aa7d9f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:52:42 - 10:59:09","影片長度":"00:06:27","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（詢答及處理）\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） \n（一）莊守耕公益基金。\n（二）受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金基金。\n12月16日、18日及19日（三天一次會））","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-16","start_time":"2024-12-16T10:52:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-16T10:59:09+08:00","duration":387,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.31784375,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.497843750000001,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.476593750000003,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.19784375,"end":20.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.05721875,"end":40.885343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.23971875,"end":43.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.21409375,"end":73.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.99409375,"end":79.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.66409375,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.75596875000001,"end":100.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.67346875000001,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.86221875000001,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.62534375000001,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.98846875,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.85409375,"end":198.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.95346875,"end":285.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.29846875000004,"end":334.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.88846875,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.79721875,"end":307.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.72971875,"end":334.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.78034375000004,"end":340.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.69096875,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.83846875,"end":341.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.38534375,"end":384.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.05971875,"end":383.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.30846875000003,"end":385.43909375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.376,"end":2.218,"text":"薛主席有請我們委員長我的問題很簡單就是有關於產息專班3加4的這個"},{"start":18.572,"end":40.1,"text":"產協攜手合作的僑生專班從2014年起僑生這個僑委會聯合教育部推出的計畫那對象是16到22歲擁有東亞東南亞屈果的身份證的僑生只要先在當地"},{"start":41.36,"end":61.252,"text":"我國駐外的機構考過考試通過之後出街的華語能力測試就可以申請了來台就讀高職期間注射費由我國全額補助這些畢業後可直接就讀到科技大學"},{"start":65.957,"end":82.831,"text":"這個問題我想請教一下我們的委員長有關於產息專班的目的為何能夠在這個地方協用合一接連中華民國本席同意"},{"start":85.828,"end":90.114,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密"},{"start":100.908,"end":119.182,"text":"既指教育環境中學習對僑務來說只能提高僑親對我國的一個凝聚力但是現在我們慢慢發覺到現在是有點變質而且他們會借用這個產息專班來台灣"},{"start":123.365,"end":136.394,"text":"工作甚至不願意讀書那借用這個名稱裡面就在臺灣裡面就業就職那這個這個如何將來以後如何導正來回答一下好不好"},{"start":137.005,"end":141.407,"text":"謝謝黃委員的提示確實委員的觀察我也有同樣的一些觀察我們早期因為學生的年齡沒有給他設限所以來台就讀的學生年紀偏大他們確實是經濟動機強於技術或者是學位的學習"},{"start":162.577,"end":186.314,"text":"因此在今年開始我們就設定就是來臺讀書3加4的年齡必須在22歲以下這樣子的話他們的年比較年輕的時候他們比較能夠專心去學習而且我們也保障他們在學校的學習上面我們進一步提升華語的這個教學讓部分原來學生"},{"start":186.954,"end":188.175,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":214.635,"end":235.807,"text":"二、提升老師的教學品質今年我們已經找了技高端就是大專院校的科技大學以及技高的這些高職技術型高職學校教師主任及校長來開會就是希望提供他們一個新的計劃案"},{"start":237.048,"end":239.989,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（"},{"start":262.794,"end":264.275,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分"},{"start":286.965,"end":307.23,"text":"這個問題是因為產修專班是一個本意的好處的出發但是現在很多就是淪為仲介就收起費用那另外就是因為學習的環境不佳是受到很多的批評所以根本學生都不想學習了所以造成了很多的問題所在"},{"start":308.59,"end":336.421,"text":"那另外就是說有的學校只想拿補助就以這個假借這個名稱裡面拿補助所以我希望你們導正這樣的一個對沒有錯現在上修到22歲才可以是對沒有錯這樣的話降低了這一些不想讀書而且不想寫寫拿這個名稱拿到一個補助對所以這樣的一個方案來講的話我想"},{"start":337.641,"end":340.783,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒跟委員補充一下有關於仲介這事情我們是非常嚴格在審查不瞞委員說今年確實有某一個國家有個非常明確有仲介行為我們把他全部的學生全部不予誤取"},{"start":355.41,"end":365.22,"text":"就把它堵住在境外那後面呢又有曾經發生過是有用少量假民間基金會為名義事實上也是行人力仲介的狀態這也都被我們一一查獲一旦被查獲這個學生就遞解出境就不讓他再進來這樣子的話呢才不會讓這些狀況案例繼續發生我相信我們會控制得很好"},{"start":378.433,"end":382.719,"text":"因為你們這樣子修正的話才能夠更精進好不好。好的。謝謝。謝謝。謝謝黃委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時52分）謝謝主席，有請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：黃委員，你好。"],["黃委員仁：你好。我的問題很簡單，就是有關於產攜專班，3加4的產學攜手合作僑生專班，這是從2014年起僑委會聯合教育部推出的計畫，對象是16到22歲，擁有東南亞7國身分證的僑生，只要先在當地我國駐外的機構考試通過之後，通過初階的華語能力測試就可以申請了，來臺就讀高職期間，註冊費由我國全額的補助，這些人畢業後可直接去科技大學就讀。關於這個問題，我想請教一下委員長，有關於產攜專班的目的為何？能夠在這個地方學用合一，接連中華民國，本席同意當初設置產攜專班的良善初衷，尤其是臺灣少子化的問題越來越嚴重，對僑生而言，能夠在臺灣優質的技職教育環境中學習，對僑務來說，則能提高僑青對我國的一個凝聚力。但是現在我們慢慢發覺到它是有點變質，而且他們會借用這個產攜專班來臺灣工作，甚至不願意讀書，借用這個名稱後就在臺灣裡面就業、就職，這個問題將來、以後如何導正？請你回答一下，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝黃委員的提示。確實，委員的觀察，我也有同樣的一些觀察，早期因為學生的年齡我們並沒有設限，所以來臺就讀的學生年紀偏大，他們確實是經濟動機強於技術或者是學位的學習。因此，在今年開始，我們就設定來臺讀書3加4的年齡必須在22歲以下，這樣子的話，在他們比較年輕的時候，他們比較能夠專心去學習，而且我們也保障他們在學校的學習上面，進一步提升華語的教學，針對部分原來程度不是那麼強的學生，我們在今年開始提出一些修正方案，讓他們的學習動機跟學習能力都有所提升，這樣子的話，他們在產學合作、企業端的實習，也會比較有實質的收穫，所以委員關心的這個點，我們也確實是一樣的關心。所以第一個，我們就是要改善讓學生有心學習；第二個，我們要提升老師的教學品質，所以今年我們已經找了技高端，也就是大專院校的科技大學，以及技高的這些高職、技術型高職學校的教師、主任及校長來開會，就是希望提供他們一個新的計畫案，包括在華語的師資上面，我們要給他們重新培訓，讓他們用雙語教材來教這些各國的學生。有些國家的學生，像馬來西亞或是泰北地區，或是緬甸，他們早期有唸過我們僑校的，因為華語程度好，我們就讓他們在語言選修上換成是英文，這樣子的話，大家在學習時才不會說層次不一樣，因為參差不齊在同一班老師會很難教，或者學生覺得他就沒有興趣了。從明年開始，我們就會做這樣的分流處理，教師的部分，我們也會提供誘因培養他們，讓他們在教學的熱忱跟教學的方法上，都能夠有所精進，來提升我們學生的程度。"],["黃委員仁：這個問題是因為產攜專班的設置其本意及出發點都是好的，但是現在很多就是淪為仲介收取費用，另外就是因為學習的環境不佳，受到很多的批評，所以學生根本都不想學習了，造成了很多的問題。另外，有的學校只是想要拿補助，假借這個名稱去拿補助，所以我希望你們能夠去導正這樣的現象。沒有錯，現在上修到22歲才可以，這樣做並沒有錯，這樣的話可以降低這一些不想讀書而且不想學習，或是拿這個名稱去取得補助的狀況，所以對於這樣的方案來講，我想你們要好好的來把這個部分做修正……"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員的提醒，跟委員補充一下，有關於仲介這件事情，我們是非常嚴格在審查。不瞞委員說，今年確實有某一個國家，非常明確有仲介行為，我們把它全部的學生不予錄取，就把它堵住在境外。後面又有曾經發生過，有少量假民間基金會為名義，事實上也是行人力仲介的狀態，這也都被我們一一查獲，一旦被查獲，這個學生就會遞解出境，就不讓他再進來了。這樣子的話，才不會讓這些狀況、案例繼續發生，我相信我們會控制得很好。"],["黃委員仁：你們這樣子做修正的話，才能夠更精進，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["黃委員仁：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝，謝謝黃委員。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋代）：謝謝黃委員，謝謝委員長。","接下來有請王定宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分；二、審查114年度\n中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） 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早在我諮詢之前告訴你一個消息不知道你有沒有手上及時知道本來這個禮拜三要停靠台中港的挪威奮進號郵輪不來了"},{"start":29.488,"end":45.13,"text":"你應該還不知道這早上一早的收到訊息喔身為台中人我們一直在積極的在推動這個郵輪的一個商機那郵輪的觀光是可以讓台中港活絡那"},{"start":45.831,"end":68.03,"text":"好不容易好不容易破蛋了啦今年終於在12月有一艘郵輪要進來結果聽說是氣候的因素啦我不曉得這個等一下你會後可以再去詢問一下再去了解一下我們還是希望說台中港在交通部的努力之下跟地方政府的積極配合之下還是希望期待"},{"start":68.931,"end":70.111,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":96.437,"end":116.09,"text":"那他們呢這兩條線喔事實上對台中的捷運網來講非常重要剛剛蘇越委有提到了綠線綠線現在要延伸到大坑那往南要延伸到彰化那我們都積極而且全力支持喔那只是說這個整個不管是綠線、藍線、橘線喔我們的一個網絡要建立它的轉程"},{"start":120.673,"end":142.787,"text":"限與限之間的轉乘必須要方便那才能夠達到它最大的一個效益那也能夠方便我們不管是國內外的旅客還有我們自己的市民轉乘但是現在在台中火車站我們上次我相信我們局長知道我在交通委員會有諮詢然後我們也有去考察"},{"start":143.567,"end":155.466,"text":"那現在藍線橘線的這個轉乘的距離上次考察局長有跟我們說了幾個方案那目前你知道臺中市政府的規劃進度為何?請局長"},{"start":160.141,"end":175.696,"text":"跟委員報告就局限的可行性研究市政府在上個月22號已經把這個可言報告修正送到交通部這邊來我們最近已經簽報給部裡面打算就是建議部裡面報院召開審查委員會來做後續的確認不對"},{"start":178.078,"end":181.181,"text":"當初審查委員會的意見會在中規的時候來做最後的確認。那我們是在臺中在附近...到中規還要多久的時間?"},{"start":195.986,"end":210.025,"text":"可言合定之後進行中規應該通常要一年到兩年左右的時間我們希望當然地方政府要努力我們也希望中央審查的速度可不可以再加快一點我們等很久了好不好"},{"start":211.486,"end":229.327,"text":"接下來我就要問喔那如果說已經有進度那也有相關的在談論這個轉成的設計要更方便創造旅客捷運台鐵都能夠三引喔我現在有一個實體的這個照片就是現在預留為轉運站的一個土地嘛那還有"},{"start":230.348,"end":242.037,"text":"檯鐵的開發案也是在這裡嘛那另外這一個地圖呢就是當初我們手上看到台中市政府給我們的一個圖示表那我們現在到底是要增設還是購物購物我想要把這個藍線橘線的轉成過去的規劃是長達380公尺的一個"},{"start":249.963,"end":252.043,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":276.233,"end":304.564,"text":"跟委員報告我們有建議臺中市政府就是未來應該是要朝向增設共購的方向來做努力也就是原來的歐16站仍然保留那在靠近臺中火車站這個地方增加一個車站那如果有機會的話可以跟臺鐵的這個開發的這個用地來做共購那這樣子的話等於是對於上面未來的開發跟下面的這個轉乘跟交通都是互蒙其利的"},{"start":304.684,"end":307.785,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":332.317,"end":345.767,"text":"除了藍線,藍線現在台中要拚動工明年要動工那現在我的個人看法藍線事實上現在只做半套啦另外一個延伸線如果能夠一起做的話還叫做整套的啦因為現在的藍線是從海線延伸到甘城而已那對不起從海線到甘城"},{"start":353.533,"end":381.272,"text":"netesle 從甘城我要延伸進去屯區那現行我知道台中市政府規劃進太平那進太平呢太平是一個新興的一個都會型的一個行政區域那已經超過20萬人口所以呢我相信如果延伸進來太平的話可以讓可以讓什麼這一個藍線的一個未來的營運絕對會是有正面強大的效益所以呢我希望"},{"start":382.213,"end":400.689,"text":"台中市政府是不是已經把南線延伸太平的這一個可行性已經交通部這邊在審查了嗎?已經在交通部了。已經在交通部了嘛對不對。那交通部部長支持一定要支持那審查快一點。那審查的速度就是趙委員所說的加速來審查。"},{"start":401.489,"end":420.824,"text":"我希望我們建議我們期待那藍線的延伸到太平端可以呢無縫接軌的能夠一併的施工啦如果說你前面的可行性研究還有可行性跟重規可以加快速度的話那我們預計的藍線現行核定的藍線"},{"start":425.007,"end":443.941,"text":"adequang動工沒關係雖然有時間差但是呢我們可以並案處理我覺得這是一個態度而且是一個有效率的一個處理方式嗎可以嗎部長我們覺得可以並案處理如果兩岸可以並案處理即便是南線的前期已經先開工我們太平的這一段在後期跟上其實是可以的"},{"start":444.673,"end":454.346,"text":"您的態度很重要。前一任交通部長李孟彥,他是堅定的告訴我他願意支持合併病案來處理。那陳世凱部長,你現在的部長態度也很重要。當然也是支持啊。"},{"start":459.693,"end":482.432,"text":"支持病案處理。病案處理之後我們可以無縫接軌合併施工施工他是可以我知道你們都是專家捷運的施工是可以分標分包然後是可以不同的時間點希望能夠陸陸續續的動工動工完之後未來通車也是可以階段性我們希望就是一次能夠做到好啦"},{"start":483.292,"end":501.901,"text":"這沒有問題嘛好不好部長因為我相信大台中的捷運網路需要部長你大力的支持綠線、藍線、橘線還有呢大屏幕的紫線那都是呢剛好都是在大台中的一個人口非常稠密的一個都會型的行政區域裡面"},{"start":503.522,"end":512.68,"text":"結運入網要營運成功就一定要有人口支撐啦對不對好不好那當然更重要的是中央的支持啦再拜託部長好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時49分）謝謝主席、召委，我們是不是請陳世凱部長？"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好，早安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好，早。"],["何委員欣純：在我質詢之前，告訴你一個消息，不知道你有沒有即時知道，本來這個禮拜三要停靠臺中港的挪威奮進號郵輪不來了，你應該還不知道。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我還不知道，還不曉得，不好意思！"],["何委員欣純：這是早上一早收到的訊息。身為臺中人，我們一直在積極地推動郵輪的商機，郵輪的觀光是可以讓臺中港活絡，好不容易、好不容易破蛋了，今年終於在12月有1艘郵輪要進來，結果聽說是氣候的因素，我不曉得，你等一下會後可以再去詢問一下……"],["陳部長世凱：好，我再去瞭解一下，再跟委員報告。"],["何委員欣純：再去瞭解一下。我們還是希望、期待臺中港在交通部的努力之下，跟地方政府的積極配合之下，能夠有郵輪進來……"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們也非常期待。"],["何委員欣純：不僅僅是帶國外的觀光客進來，也能夠讓臺灣的中部人可以搭郵輪，在臺中港就近……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：努力啦……"],["陳部長世凱：好，當然要努力……"],["何委員欣純：等一下會後趕快去瞭解一下……"],["陳部長世凱：我趕快去瞭解一下。"],["何委員欣純：好不好？拜託！拜託！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：第二個，講到臺中港，臺中港最近的大眾運輸系統就是我們期待的捷運藍線與橘線……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：這兩條線事實上對臺中的捷運網來講非常重要……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：剛剛素月委員有提到綠線，綠線現在要延伸到大坑，往南要延伸到彰化，我們都積極而且全力支持。只是不管是綠線、藍線、橘線，我們的網絡要建立，線與線之間的轉乘必須要方便，才能夠達到它最大的效益，也能夠方便不管是國內外的旅客還是我們自己的市民轉乘。但是現在在臺中火車站，我相信局長知道……"],["陳部長世凱：委員有質詢過。"],["何委員欣純：我在交通委員會有質詢過，我們也有去考察，現在藍線、橘線的轉乘距離，上次考察局長有跟我們說了幾個方案，目前你知道臺中市政府的規劃進度為何？"],["陳部長世凱：請局長，謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：局長，說給部長聽。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，橘線的可行性研究，市政府在上個月22日已經把這個可研報告修正送到交通部來，我們最近已經簽報給部裡面，打算建議部裡面召開審查委員會來做後續的確認，不對，應該是要直接報院……"],["何委員欣純：對、對，我們程序已經到這裡了。"],["楊局長正君：這個轉乘的規劃已經納在可研報告裡面做了粗略的規劃，按照當初審查委員會的意見，會在綜規的時候來做最後的確認，我們是在臺中站附近……"],["何委員欣純：到綜規還要多久的時間？"],["楊局長正君：可研核定之後進行綜規，通常應該要1年到2年左右的時間。"],["何委員欣純：當然地方政府要努力，我們也希望中央審查的速度可不可以再加快一點，我們等很久了，好不好？"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["何委員欣純：接下來我就要問，如果已經有進度，也有在談論這個轉乘的相關設計要更方便，創造旅客、捷運、臺鐵能夠三贏，我現在有一個實體的照片，就是現在預留為轉運站的土地，臺鐵的開發案也是在這裡。另外這個地圖就是當初我們手上看到臺中市政府給我們的圖示表，那我們現在到底是要增設，還是共構？藍線、橘線的轉乘過去的規劃是長達380公尺的人行距離，如何能夠縮短它的人行距離，而且是方便友善的通道，甚至參考國外的建設，他們的經驗都是共構，我們如何用我們的專業技術讓它能夠共構，我覺得這是很重要的一件事。局長，所以現在這個共構，我們中央有沒有專業的意見給臺中市政府？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，我們有建議臺中市政府，未來應該是要朝向增設、共構的方向來做努力，也就是原來的O16站仍然保留，在靠近臺中火車站這個地方增加1個車站，如果有機會的話，可以跟臺鐵的這個開發用地來做共構，這樣子的話，等於對於上面未來的開發以及下面的轉乘與交通都是互蒙其利的。"],["何委員欣純：都是很好，對不對？"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["何委員欣純：所以我會建議，像這樣子的專業意見，希望地方政府能夠採納，中央在這個審查的程序裡面也能夠加快速度，因為我們要創造三贏，其實是多贏的局面，時間效率很重要，所以我拜託部長要全力的支持，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，這個我們來加速……"],["何委員欣純：拜託！拜託！"],["陳部長世凱：把研議的時間縮短。"],["何委員欣純：是。除此之外，藍線現在臺中要拼明年動工，我的個人看法，藍線事實上現在只做半套，另外一個延伸線如果能夠一起做的話，才叫做做整套。因為現在的藍線是從海線到干城而已，如果要從干城延伸進去屯區，我知道現行臺中市政府規劃進太平，太平是一個新興的都會型行政區域，已經超過20萬人口，我相信如果延伸進來太平的話，對於藍線未來的營運，絕對會是有正面強大的效益。臺中市政府是不是已經把藍線延伸太平的這個可行性送交通部，交通部已經在審查了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，已經在交通部了，已經在交通部了。"],["何委員欣純：已經在交通部了，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：交通部部長一定要支持，要審查快一點……"],["陳部長世凱：當然會支持……"],["何委員欣純：一定支持。"],["陳部長世凱：審查的速度就是照委員所說的加速來審查。"],["何委員欣純：是，我希望、我們建議、我們期待藍線延伸到太平段可以無縫接軌一併施工，如果前面的可行性研究還有綜規，可以加快速度的話，現行核定的藍線即將動工沒關係，雖然有時間差，但是我們可以併案處理……"],["陳部長世凱：可以，這個可以。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得這是一個態度，而且是一個有效率的處理方式，可以嗎？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們覺得可以併案處理，如果兩案可以併案處理，即便是藍線的前期已經先開工，太平這一段在後期跟上其實是可以的。"],["何委員欣純：你的態度很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：前一任交通部長李孟諺是堅定地告訴我，他願意支持合併，併案來處理。"],["陳部長世凱：是，併案處理是可以的。"],["何委員欣純：陳世凱部長，你是現在的部長，態度也很重要，所以我需要……"],["陳部長世凱：當然也是支持，支持併案，這個沒問題。"],["何委員欣純：支持併案處理，併案處理之後，我們可以無縫接軌合併施工，我知道你們都是專家，捷運的施工是可以分標分包……"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：是可以不同的時間點，希望能夠陸陸續續地動工，動工之後，未來通車也是可以階段性，我們希望就是一次能夠做到好。"],["陳部長世凱：可以分段處理，這個沒問題。"],["何委員欣純：這個沒有問題，好不好？部長……"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們支持，這個我們支持。"],["何委員欣純：我相信大臺中的捷運網路需要部長大力的支持，綠線、藍線、橘線，還有大平霧的紫線，剛好都是在大臺中人口非常稠密的都會型行政區域裡面，捷運路網要營運成功，就一定要有人口支撐，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["何委員欣純：好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們都支持。"],["何委員欣純：當然更重要的是中央的支持。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們都支持。"],["何委員欣純：再拜託部長，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來有請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158155","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158155","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_de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- 10:52:18","影片長度":"00:06:36","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（詢答及處理）\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） 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Taiwan這樣大家彼此有一個比較清楚的區隔"},{"start":252.078,"end":260.98,"text":"謝謝委員長另外一個就是說因為我們這一次有看到就是說去強化這個僑界的聯繫那時候因為也有提到就是說法律戰、輿論戰現在比較夯就是說對於海外僑胞對這件事情的了解還有他應該要怎麼幫助那因為當時在質詢的時候有說過會有一些計畫但因為這計畫在預算書也直接看不出來所以我待會可能會問一下這個詳細的計畫跟這個凍結有關的事項所以這邊就稍微提醒一下好的 謝謝"},{"start":280.743,"end":298.17,"text":"再來就是這一個宣傳的路徑就是說因為這邊有提到就是說僑務新聞資訊傳媒服務這個編列增加了這個這個388萬對那這一個增加的他最主要是用在哪裡我覺得因為錢要花在刀口上我覺得這個是必要的"},{"start":299.731,"end":309.499,"text":"但問題是怎麼要畫在刀口上?現在這個部分的計畫是什麼?跟委員報告,事實上我們有一加五的這個官媒那一是我們的僑務電子報那五就是包括IGXFB這個"},{"start":316.664,"end":318.405,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬"},{"start":346.968,"end":371.27,"text":"因為近年來我們工資在提升然後我們在這個編輯上我們也發現說僑胞隨時因應很多現在新的政策資訊的需求我們都超額的去壓榨了那些廠商所以我們認為說不應該長期這樣下去應該要合理的來反映這樣的一個情況所以我們適時的增加了一點點費用是在人事上面"},{"start":371.95,"end":372.151,"text":"好的,好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":614,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時45分）謝謝主席。有請委員長。"],["主席：請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：沈委員早安。"],["沈委員伯洋：早安。今天早上事情確實比較多一點……"],["徐委員長佳青：大家辛苦了。"],["沈委員伯洋：但我們還是希望能夠順利地審查預算。我大部分都是根據之前有質詢過的內容來提出幾個凍結案及主決議，現在我再追問幾個事項就好了，畢竟時間也有限，剩下的等一下審查時再說。","上次有提過，有關海外選舉時，有韓國華僑同時擁有無戶籍的中華民國護照及中華人民共和國護照，請問這件事情後來追的狀況如何？我知道他不是官方，而是屬於民間。當然，理論上跟僑委會可能有一定的聯繫，所以不知道這件事情的後續如何？"],["徐委員長佳青：他們後面的華僑協會會長……他早期確實是用中華民國國籍，但他沒有戶籍，事實上，在韓國大部分的僑民都是這種狀態，甚至連中華民國國籍都沒有！所以他後面才去辦了中華人民共和國護照……"],["沈委員伯洋：就是為了方便嘛！那時候中國其實很愛發護照！"],["徐委員長佳青：是，沒有錯。但在這過程中，仍然有非常多的韓國僑胞，即便沒有拿到中華民國護照，他們也不去辦中華人民共和國護照！我們近年來有鼓勵他們應該辦韓國護照，畢竟他們定居在韓國，已經有永久居留權了，早期他們多數是希望能夠向臺灣中華民國來申辦。不過我們當時的法規有很多限制，所以現在只有少部分殊勳歸化人士有拿到無戶籍國民護照的情形。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝委員長。這並不一定是滲透或什麼的，因為他們早期為了做生意等等之類的方便去辦了中國護照，但現在中國護照真的不好用，所以鼓勵他們辦當地國護照等等之類的，或許是一個比較好的解法。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員講的對，他們其實是喜歡臺灣護照，而不是喜歡中國護照。因為臺灣免簽國有111個，中國只有三、四十個，比較上來說，很多在韓國的僑胞確實很希望拿到中華民國護照，有助於他們辦理免簽的方便性。"],["沈委員伯洋：另外，這次總統過境參訪時，我們有看到一堆名單，他們直接登報說臺獨終歸死路一條，而這裡面有很多的協會，有些名稱其實滿中性的，有些則是像中國統一促進會那種，到處都是和平統一促進會，那些我們都知道是中國的，但我發現這裡面有滿多的，像什麼美國媽祖基金會，這個也在說臺獨死路一條，還有美國棋類協會。不過我這邊只是要提醒啦，我相信僑委會可能也有一定的掌握，就是顯然有很多海外的團體，它的名稱聽起來很中性，但它做出來的事情完全是違反臺灣利益的。"],["徐委員長佳青：這些都是過去中共統戰扶持的僑團，同時可能是一個僑團掛三個名稱，這樣的計畫……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，一個機構兩個牌子，他們可以到三個牌子。"],["徐委員長佳青：對、對、對，就是這樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我才會說要特別去注意這樣的事情，因為畢竟我們在外面很容易跟這些協會，可能是舉辦活動或者交流等等之類的，不一定，但是他們的立場其實是完全違反我們國家的立場。"],["徐委員長佳青：所以近年來我們都會鼓勵友我的僑團，或者基本上就是從中華民國臺灣去成立的僑團，能夠用英文的方式去附註他們是from Taiwan，這樣大家彼此有一個比較清楚的區隔。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，謝謝委員長。","另外一個問題，因為我們這一次有看到要強化與僑界的聯繫，其實那時候也有提到，因為現在法律戰、輿論戰比較夯，就是說，海外僑胞對於這件事情的了解，還有他應該要怎麼幫助，因為當時在質詢的時候你們說過會有一些計畫，但因為這個計畫在預算書中也看不出來，所以我待會可能會問一下詳細的計畫跟凍結有關的事項，這邊就先稍微提醒一下。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。謝謝。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來，關於這個宣傳的路徑，因為這邊有提到僑務新聞資訊及傳媒服務，這部分的預算編列增加了388萬7,000元……"],["徐委員長佳青：388萬。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這一次的增加，它最主要是用在哪裡？因為錢要花在刀口上，我覺得這個是必要的，但問題是它要怎麼樣花在刀口上，現在這個部分的計畫是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，事實上，我們有1加5的官媒，所謂的1是我們的僑務電子報，至於5就是包括IG、X、FB、LINE等等，還有YouTube，這些事實上都需要人力去管理，我們只有非常少的僑務通訊社的人力，總共只有7個人，不可能管理編輯，而且還需要有美編、技術型、剪接等等這些需求，他們不做編劇，他們只是幫忙做剪接，技術型的，或者是美編這樣子的作為，基本資料都是配合我們僑委會政策業務的資訊宣導。因為近年來我們工資在提升，然後在這個編輯上我們也發現到，僑胞因應現在很多新的政策資訊的需求，都超額的去壓榨了那些廠商，所以我們認為不應該長期這樣下去，應該要合理的來反映這樣的情況，所以我們適時的增加了一點點費用，是在人事上面。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個增加我覺得不是什麼問題啦，我覺得透明化是好事，不然的話，反對黨很喜歡講說什麼大外宣等等之類的，但是對我們來講，這不是什麼，我們又不是在洗白我們有什麼人權的侵害，這跟大外宣一點關係都沒有，但是有一定的透明化會有助於等一下的討論。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後一個問題，僑生在臺灣就學後要怎麼樣留得比較久，這個部分就等到我們後面進行審查的時候，我再來詢問。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝委員長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，委員長請回。","接下來進行詢答委員是蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來進行詢答委員是黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分；二、審查114年度\n中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） ( 一) 莊守耕公益基\n金、(二)受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金基金","agenda_id":"1140801_00002"}}},{"id":"158154","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158154","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1964bc13ced21cba3041ac1bd29e6d5ff049c5ec402f88f0f12dd67b214fff2aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"10:40:26 - 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0.541,"end":134.442,"text":"議員會目前在這一次的預算數的報告,徵務人員5人、編制人員15人、技工1人、約聘人員70人、共92人。"},{"start":149.807,"end":177.68,"text":"在這次的預算書跟去年的預算書原額跟總共的人數是差不多的所以表示說在去年再到今年以及到明年的部分其實在這個調查的能力上依舊是能力不足的一個狀況那本期在上次所質詢的時候有提到他也希望主委能夠體諒這個運安會大家同仁的一個辛苦那來跟行政院或是跟部內來如何協調能夠增加這個人員跟預算那我想請問一下主委在這個"},{"start":178.981,"end":185.761,"text":"過程中這半年來講還有沒有就是開口跟哪一個官員或是跟院長提到這個人力需求?"},{"start":186.707,"end":194.669,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":211.374,"end":223.622,"text":"有預計在明年會怎麼樣的方式來增加嗎?目前我們還沒有得到答案。沒有得到答案。那你是什麼時候問的?我們不知道答案。你上次跟人事監事總署開口提的時候是大概在幾月的時候?"},{"start":225.798,"end":249.748,"text":"我們請財政司來報告委員有關我們太空人力的部分我們其實在我們的113年的原理評鑑裡面有有已經有提到規範人力是幾月提的今年3月份的報告今年3月份的報告那我10月22號質詢的時候也有提到希望能夠表達那在規範的過程中有沒有在任何書面或口頭的方式提到需要增加人力"},{"start":251.91,"end":278.557,"text":"我們目前就是呃就是原有評鑑的部分對那所以說嘛我我坦白講啦就是說如果沒有辦法去積極的去反映這件事情的話那運安會永遠都會處於一個就是調查人力不足的一個情況啊那所以說今天部長也在那卓也在我希望說不管是之前的委員有提到這個事情那我相信等一下有其他委員也一樣會提到同樣的事啊那所以本期還是希望說"},{"start":279.437,"end":300.463,"text":"在這個第二會期再次也檢討跟就是希望運安會能夠針對人力調查人力的部分來去做一個實際上積極的爭取那我覺得這才能夠去改善這個運安會人力不足在處理這個調查報告無法能夠縮短期程才符合社會期待那同樣的我們再看一下這個數據"},{"start":302.779,"end":319.042,"text":"我們看到了運安會的數據啊這個在相關揭露的部分我們看到了在這個執行率啊還跟他的達成率啊他是用從108年到現在的一個部分來去做一個完成率那其中來講"},{"start":321.023,"end":347.409,"text":"議員會主委您是航空背景那我們看到航空背景的這個完成率其實確實比較高但是在水路、鐵路還包括陸路的這個部分它的完成率確實偏低那在這個立案調查數量以及包括在歷年改善完成的完成率的部分那本席還是要再次強調這個完成率的部分是過於美化因為它的完成數是108年到現在的總數"},{"start":349.89,"end":376.228,"text":"那如果說再把這個當年度新例的案子還再把它看當年度能否完成或是再把它抓成兩年之內能否完成的話那它的數字絕對不會像還九十幾、七十幾、八十幾還的這種數字啊所以說在這個數字上本席還是要建議那把人力跟研究調查的能量能夠擴大才能夠真正讓運安會來產生實際的功能"},{"start":380.512,"end":394.951,"text":"則,過去的完成數從108年到現在的總數來看兩年前、三年前立的案子現在好不容易結案但是在今年、去年立的案子都沒有辦法完成的時候這是美化的完成率"},{"start":395.472,"end":422.713,"text":"但是我本席還是要建議未來這樣子的一個改善數據應該以當年度或兩年度也同樣來去做一個解釋才能讓大家看到運安會對於兩年內一年內立的案子還有他的一個積極處理程度當然本席在這裡提到這個部分也是老調重談啦因為在很多的委員其實都常在提到如何能夠來改善運安會這個調查能力跟能量的事情但是我本席還在這裡還是要建議預算在審啦"},{"start":424.935,"end":445.324,"text":"每個委員都在審預算那當然運輸安會主委你也很認真的也第一時間在這個會期也帶了同仁來這邊溝通預算但是要解決委員在委員會所提到的問題那如何能夠讓運安會的功能能夠去精進我相信這才是我們在審查預算希望機關單位能夠改進的本質"},{"start":446.206,"end":469.144,"text":"那最後的話在這個交通部的業務報告有提到推動智慧運輸及交通產業發展在這個自駕車策略委員會的部分那在我們也看到在今年來也有許多自駕車的一個事故甚至火燒車那想接到主委那這個自駕車的這個相關的事故的調查的案子在今年度總共幾案?"},{"start":471.681,"end":491.683,"text":"自駕車我們最典型的就是戴雅路段那個撞房撞車那目前來講這樣子的報告對於目前所提那個之前所召開的自駕車策略委員會還開了巴士會那運安會的報告有沒有提供給自駕車策略委員會來去做參考"},{"start":493.134,"end":494.135,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":523.095,"end":529.803,"text":"這個會後我們會協調這個委員會,我們把資料跟他互相...不是指這一個委員會,涵蓋其他的面向。好好,謝謝委員主席,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（10時40分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：好，陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長，我還是要特別肯定一下部長，因為今天原本出席的是主委，那您特別出席，還是要特別肯定一下部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["游委員顥：部長，延續剛才蔡其昌委員以及許多委員所提到的，對運安會其實大家一直以來都提到的就是每次調查的時間，不管是因為人力的關係、預算的關係或者是相關議題的複雜程度，您看運安會調查報告的產出大概都要抓在多少時間之內出爐？部長，你先抓一個時間，在概念上應該要在多少時間內出爐才能夠符合社會大眾的期待？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得一些事件應該要3到6個月，應該要在3到6個月內讓社會……"],["游委員顥：在3到6個月內就讓社會大眾知道嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["游委員顥：那我也跟部長說明一下，運安會的報告通常會因為人力跟複雜的程度，我記得上次在11月20號本席質詢的時候，主委提到差不多是1.6到1.7個人力在負責一個案子，所以每個案子還沒展延就幾乎都要1到2年，有時候在展延以後甚至會到3年，所以就像剛才蔡其昌委員所提到的，對這個部分大家希望運安會研議如何能夠精進。","那我接著請主委上臺。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["游委員顥：主委，剛才部長也有提到期許，就是在3到6個月內能夠完成調查報告通常比較符合社會的期待，本席在11月20號質詢的時候也有提到員額不足、要如何去爭取員額、怎麼樣增加約聘的專業人才等問題。在運安會這一次的預算書裡面看到政務人員5人、編制人員15人、技工1人、約聘人員71人，共92人，在這次的預算書跟去年的預算書裡面總共的人數是差不多的，所以就表示從去年到今年、再到明年，其實在調查人力上依舊有人力不足的狀況。本席在上次質詢的時候有提到，也希望主委能夠體諒運安會同仁的辛苦，來跟行政院或者是跟部內看如何協調能夠增加人員跟預算。我想請問一下主委在這半年以來有沒有開口跟哪一個官員或是跟院長提到這個人力需求？"],["林主任委員信得：我們在爭取太空事故調查員額的時候有跟人事行政總處表達，就是雙管齊下，我們也另外跨組成立一個檢視支援小組，也就是說，某一組的案子可能有展期風險的時候，我們另外一組人力就會跨過去。"],["游委員顥：那人力跨過去還是原本的人力啊！人事行政總處是怎麼回答你？有預計在明年會以怎麼樣的方式來增加嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：目前我們還沒有得到答復。"],["游委員顥：還沒有得到答復，那你是什麼時候問的？"],["林主任委員信得：我們不知道答案，我們還在努力中。"],["游委員顥：你上次跟人事行政總處開口提的時候是大概在幾月的時候？"],["林主任委員信得：我請人事單位來說明。"],["廖主任捐惠：報告委員，有關我們太空人力的部分，其實我們在113年的員額評鑑裡面已經有提到規劃人力是5名。"],["游委員顥：在幾月提的？"],["廖主任捐惠：是今年3月份的報告。"],["游委員顥：是今年3月份的報告，我在11月20號質詢的時候也有提到希望能夠表達，那在後面的過程中有沒有再以任何書面或口頭的方式提到需要增加人力？"],["廖主任捐惠：我們目前就是員額評鑑的部分。"],["游委員顥：我坦白講，如果沒有辦法積極地去反映這件事情的話，那運安會永遠都會處於一個調查人力不足的情況，今天部長也在，主委也在，之前的委員有提到這個事情，我相信等一下其他委員也一樣會提到同樣的事，本席在第2會期再次檢討，就是希望運安會能夠針對調查人力的部分實際上去積極地爭取，我覺得這才能夠去改善運安會人力不足的狀況，在處理調查報告如何能夠縮短期程才符合社會期待。","同樣的，我們再看一下這個數據，我們看到了運安會的數據，在相關揭露的部分，我們看到了，執行率、達成率、完成率是用從108年到現在的部分統計，其中來講，運安會主委，您是航空背景，我們看到航空類別的完成率、執行率確實比較高，但是在水路、鐵路還有陸路的這個部分，完成率確實偏低！在立案調查數量以及歷年改善建議完成率的部分，本席還是要再次強調，這個完成率的部分是不是過於美化？因為它的完成數是108年到現在的總數，如果再看當年度新立的案子當年度能否完成，或是抓兩年之內能否完成的話，數字絕對不會還是九十幾、七十幾、八十幾這種數字，在這個數字上，本席還是要建議，把人力與研究調查的能量擴大才能夠真正讓運安會產生實際功能，不然的話，從108年到現在的完成數總數來看，兩年前、三年前立的案子現在好不容易結案，但是今年、去年立的案子都還沒有辦法完成，這是美化的完成率。所以本席還是要建議，未來這樣子的改善數據應該依當年度或兩年度也同樣來做揭示，才能讓大家看到運安會對於兩年內、一年內立的案子的處理狀況，還有積極處理的程度。","當然本席在這裡提到這個部分也是老調重彈，因為很多委員其實都常常提到如何能夠改善運安會的調查能力與能量的事情，但是本席在這裡還是要建議，預算在審，每個委員都在審預算，當然運安會主委也很認真，在這個會期第一時間也帶了同仁來這邊溝通預算，但是要解決委員在委員會所提到的問題，如何讓運安會的功能能夠精進，我相信那才是我們在審查預算希望機關單位能夠改進的本質。","最後，交通部的業務報告有提到「推動智慧運輸與交通產業發展」，其中在自駕車策略委員會的部分，我們也看到今年以來有許多自駕車的事故，甚至火燒車，想就教主委，自駕車相關事故的調查案子在今年度總共幾案？"],["林主任委員信得：自駕車事故，我們最典型的就是大雅路段那個撞車的……"],["游委員顥：該報告出來了沒有？"],["林主任委員信得：已經出來了、已經出來了。"],["游委員顥：之前自駕車策略委員會還開了8次會，那運安會的報告有沒有提供給自駕車策略委員會去做參考？"],["林主任委員信得：這個是沒有，因為我們都是公布在官網上。"],["游委員顥：好，本席直接做一個建議，運安會的報告其實就是要讓交通部及各種交通業務能夠去做精進，之前自駕車委員會開了8次會，但是運安會這些相關事故的調查報告資料卻沒有能夠做參考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5年那你簡單講明年還有那個列管4年的因為他要做5年嘛我的意思是這樣你懂我意思嗎我們來檢討一個其實如果他進行中看得見了你應該有另外一種追蹤列管的方法而不是通通統合在一個好像都沒有做的那種列管裡面"},{"start":609.685,"end":634.962,"text":"這樣好不好?這樣我們才有辦法監督嘛,不然這個數字看了我都覺得很離譜的,三年以上還有五件,還有鐵道還有九件,要怕死人啊,現在是怎樣?運安會說的話都沒人要聽就對了。這個不行啊,這個運安會的報告要改善的就是要確保我們交通載具的安全,這是維護人民生命財產的重大事情。是這樣好不好?這樣我們才有能力去監督嘛。好,謝謝,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時29分）謝謝主席，先請交通部陳部長跟林所長。"],["主席：請陳部長、林繼國所長。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早、所長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：今天本席要就教幾個問題，第一個就是ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統，所長，執行的成果怎麼樣？過去在國道上面執行嘛。"],["林所長繼國：是。跟委員報告一下，我們前兩年在國道執行當然就是幫業者開發出來一個分析的平臺工具，也就是說後續他們業者利用ADAS還有一些行車影像資料，直接就可以找出到底他所轄的哪些駕駛員在什麼樣的道路的情況之下比較會有一些不適當的駕駛行為，可以作為教育訓練的一個工具。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所長，那進度上面，我們國道的客運業實際在運用了嗎？"],["林所長繼國：國道客運的部分，我們準備在114年度要實際找一家業者來輔導並移轉給他們使用。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。所以國道跟市區道路是要同時做還是分開做？"],["林所長繼國：前兩年是先開發國道的分析平臺……"],["蔡委員其昌：的ADAS，對。"],["林所長繼國：對，然後明年就……"],["蔡委員其昌：明年開始做市區？"],["林所長繼國：輔導，然後明年也同時做市區跟輔導。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。這個輔導計畫好了之後，對於ADAS系統在行車安全上面的，你先會讓他們……"],["林所長繼國：熟悉。"],["蔡委員其昌：熟悉嘛，然後也讓AI的辨識度，因為data多了，它的辨識精準度就高嘛……"],["林所長繼國：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：你覺得實際運用的時程會落在什麼時候？"],["林所長繼國：我想明年我們實際就會找業者來做試辦，到時候就可以從這個過程當中……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，試辦我知道，但你覺得這樣的系統普遍運用在國道客運跟市區的公車上面，時間大概還要多久？"],["林所長繼國：我預估大概3到5年。"],["蔡委員其昌：3到5年？"],["林所長繼國：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：時程要儘量掌握，如果這是一個有用的技術，因為我們都知道，這個系統裝上去，如果成效好的話，事實上對於國道客運，特別在市區，你看市區很多的車禍，對於公車去撞到行人等等，如果這個系統你們經過測試、教育訓練都可以成功，未來勢必對於行人受到公車、大型巴士傷害的機率就會下降……"],["林所長繼國：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：人命關天啦！"],["林所長繼國：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：這種有效的事情要早一點做，要快一點做。"],["林所長繼國：好，我們加速。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。這個講的都是實際的，有的議題我聽起來都覺得不一定能夠怎樣，但是這是馬上可以立即改善很多這種死角，公車在行駛的過程裡面司機沒有去注意到的，透過科技的發展協助公車的駕駛以保障行人的安全，這個很重要，好不好？所長。"],["林所長繼國：是，這個我知道。謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：114年度這筆預算要趕快下去執行，怎麼去縮短，同時來做，如果有效，怎麼去縮短時程可以快速落實在所有的大巴士上面。"],["林所長繼國：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們來加速。"],["蔡委員其昌：所長請回，我請主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，有關運安會，我想多次在我辦公室，我們有協調過，有了解過，其實我有一些數據，趁著今天部長也在，想跟您就教。第一個，運安會在事故調查的展期率高達65%，很多研究都顯示調查時間過長。這個我也曾經跟你就教過，你也跟我提出包括運安會人力不足等等的問題，你們要……是像其他單位，不是說其他單位隨便調查，意思是說運安會非常認真調查，所以你覺得時程都會久，但是這個數字看起來並不好看。你看運安會運輸事故調查的展期情形，你看這個展期的比率，從航空的23%，水路的76%，鐵道的63%，公路的13%，然後合計平均大概65%，這個時間大家覺得很長。所以，主委，這部分有可以縮短的可能性存在嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：跟委員報告，展期率的統計，它是從一開始成立的時候就一直算，一直算到去年底。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒錯。"],["林主任委員信得：因為這個運安會一成立的時候，有三個主要因素是這樣子，我們成立的時候要用人，招考人來，可是它並沒有籌備的階段……"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道，人不夠啦。"],["林主任委員信得：對，人不夠，它直接……"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道啦，直接就開始了啦！"],["林主任委員信得：對，然後又要招考人，又要訓練，又要調查。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒錯。"],["林主任委員信得：所以這個展期率那麼高，是古早譬如說……"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，我簡單講，應該就是說，讓你們在未來訓練人的時間會變少，所以再過一、兩年的時間，這個數字就會下來了，這樣對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯，因為他還在算以前已經固定的東西，所以當然那個分子還是很大……"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道，我懂你的意思。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：訓練成熟的人力到投入跟你要重新招募、訓練到投入相比，會讓這個數字顯得特別高。"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：這樣講對啦？"],["林主任委員信得：對，沒有錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：對這個數字我再給你一、兩年的時間，我會很注意，你不要在兩年後我來質詢你的時候你又跟我說還是65%這麼高，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：這個是預算中心算的，如果是在110年以前的，因為都已經結案了，展期就展期了，以後如果有展期，這個數字就會很好看。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以第二個數字你可以幫我把它切開來給我嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那你把那個數字稍微切開來給我一下，讓我知道運安會的展期真的在我們立法院的監督底下的確是有效改善、有把時間縮短，這樣好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：否則我們用這個標準，我們在議場上要來討論這個數字對你們也不公平，對社會也有誤導之嫌，變成好像我們也監督得不夠確實，所以請把數字給我，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們要提第三個問題，因為運安會調查報告的結果就是要求行政單位來改善，那我看了一下這個報告要求改善的建議事項，在所謂的分項執行計畫列管情形中，這個列管比率都還有百分之二十幾、百分之十幾，甚至列管年限還有3年以上的，一個事情要列管3年，我不知道3年以上的是哪一個案子，像航空3年以上的就有5件，鐵道就有9件，都是列管3年以上。部長也在這裡，你要不要跟部長講一下為什麼會列管這麼久，是你列管的有問題還是交通部執行的有問題？就是死不改，所以你才一直列管嘛！到底是什麼問題？你們兩位都站在這裡，我就一次同時問你們，這樣會比較快。"],["林主任委員信得：因為完成率這個數字最主要是被幾個大數字拉下來，譬如說，高雄機場那個跑、滑道的安全性要改善，編列預算要編好幾年；譬如說臺中的清泉崗機場也是一樣，它跑、滑道的系統要檢查、要改善的話，國防部編預算也是編了很多年，就掛在那邊，這是最主要的因素。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果他就在做了，他已經在執行了，預算也照年度編列了，你們這個列管的方法要不要調整一下？因為這樣很難看，一個事情一直在列管，3年以上還在列管，到底是發生什麼事情？3年以上還在列管，如果你沒有告訴我原因，我會認為他就是不做，3年都不做。那第二種解釋方式是事實不是這樣，他已經在做了，他已經做3年了，但是還沒有做完，所以就還在列管。"],["林主任委員信得：對，委員講的是重點，確實沒有錯，我們在行政院開會的時候，我們也跟政委報告，譬如說，臺鐵已經有編了預算，我們也看得到進度有往前在走，那我們就會建議對這個就不要列管了。可是像剛剛講的臺中清泉崗機場是國防部編預算、民航局對高雄機場編預算買土地，把那個安全性擴大的這個部分，如果我們看不到他的預算，就還是會被列管，是這個意思啊！"],["蔡委員其昌：當然啊！你都沒有在做，我當然列管你啊！我的意思是說，他已經在進行當中，你應該是採另外一種列管方式。"],["林主任委員信得：對，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我認為要動態的列管，動態的列管就是我只是追蹤你有沒有進度，譬如說，你跟我講要做5年，那每一年的進度到多少，我持續關注你的進度，你沒有進度，我就把你放到列管，你沒有按照你的進度走，我就回到列管，但是你只要按照進度走，我應該是採另外一種列管方式，這樣我們立委在監督的時候，才不會在看到這種列管3年以上的都會懷疑現在是怎麼樣，是交通部都不理你就對了，是完全不鳥你運安會嗎？不是嘛！所以你要讓我們知道什麼事情是他不鳥你的，那冤有頭、債有主，就知道該怎麼監督。可是有一些是人家已經著手在進行，案子就是一定要做5年，簡單講，明年還有那個列管4年的，因為他要做5年嘛！我的意思是這樣，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們來檢討一個機制，如果他是在進行中、看得見的，那我們用另外一種列管方式……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，應該有另外一種追蹤、列管的方法，而不是通通統合在一個好像都沒有做的那種列管裡面，這樣好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：這樣我們才有辦法監督，不然我看到這種數字都覺得很離譜，3年以上還有5件，鐵道還有9件，要嚇死人了，現在是怎麼樣？運安會說的話都沒人要聽就對了！這樣不行啊！"],["林主任委員信得：我們來研究另外一種方式。"],["蔡委員其昌：運安會的報告要求改善的就是為了確保我們交通載具的安全，這是維護人民生命財產的重大事情。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以這樣好不好？這樣我們才有能力去監督嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡委員。","現在宣告，待會在何欣純委員發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘。","有請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158152","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158152","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a11ba19b7ac82d17f8041ac1bd29e6d5ff049c5ec402f88f0f3b3d0bf90661b4be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:20:41 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10:29:18","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算。\n五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算。\n【僅進行詢答；委員預算提案於12月25日中午12時前截止收件】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-16","start_time":"2024-12-16T10:20:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-16T10:29:18+08:00","duration":517,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.6253437500000003,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.443468750000001,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.80471875,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.28721875,"end":49.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.67721875,"end":58.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.815343750000004,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.30846875,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.64471875000001,"end":70.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.87221875,"end":71.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.09159375,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.03159375,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.32659375,"end":82.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.56221875,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.65409375,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.21096875,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.27346875,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.44159375000001,"end":102.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.66909375,"end":104.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.54221875,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.03159375000001,"end":104.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.77409375,"end":122.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.29034375,"end":126.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.43721875000001,"end":142.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.09721875,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.99221875,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.58221875,"end":174.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.84159375000002,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.56596875000002,"end":217.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.57909375000003,"end":220.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.56596875000002,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.58284375000002,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.03846875000002,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.12284375000002,"end":226.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.54409375,"end":229.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.88534375,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.60659375,"end":250.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.49159375000002,"end":238.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.79346875000002,"end":262.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.64471875000004,"end":258.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.67346875000004,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.32659375000003,"end":283.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.46346875,"end":285.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.43346875000003,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.90159375,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.96034375,"end":292.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.74909375000004,"end":303.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.05659375000005,"end":295.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.42659375,"end":341.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.53034375000004,"end":341.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.12096875000003,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.83284375,"end":361.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.03346875,"end":373.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.14971875000003,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.52471875000003,"end":380.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.30471875,"end":383.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.15659375,"end":394.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.88909375000003,"end":395.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.86784375,"end":400.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.15846875000005,"end":401.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.21721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bicyn 也都蠻關心的,因為也看到之前這個工程會主委他有拋出說這個依然鐵路高架的這個地方負擔可以下降,那在就這個部分我們彰化縣的這個負擔的部分有可能再下降嗎?"},{"start":143.417,"end":166.395,"text":"報告委員這是都是固定比例啦依每一個縣市他的這個財政的狀況我們都是固定比例不管是桃園或者是台南或者高雄其實都是固定比例在處理那另外還有一個方案就是說專案協商的部分有些縣市有些比較特殊的狀況可能要透過行政院那邊做專案協商的方式才會做改變那對交通部的立場來講我們其實都是固定比例"},{"start":167.085,"end":185.322,"text":"是,所以就是全國一致性,就是不會說有例外,就是說別的縣是可以那彰化縣?除非的例外就是說有提出專案協商在這個行政院的部分進行專案協商才有可能會稍微做改變,那不然我們就是照固定比例在走。"},{"start":185.742,"end":205.725,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":205.725,"end":208.126,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":230.089,"end":249.738,"text":"受限於台中市的進度是嗎?其實應該是說他整體的這個規劃的過程當中章化縣政府要趕快提供那個落站點提供落站點其實他整體的這個規劃就有辦法把它規劃進去那目前因為整個章東的這個都市計畫目前還沒有完全定案所以這個部分可能有些延宕"},{"start":251.509,"end":267.644,"text":"如果說彰化縣政府對於這個落站點目前是規劃兩個站嗎?是不是?是兩個站。新增兩個站。那如果說他這兩個落站點一直沒有辦法解決,這樣子是不是也會等於失去延長到台中市的一個捷運的一個進度?"},{"start":268.837,"end":288.977,"text":"確實台中市那邊也有在反映這件事就是說他們希望說有沒有可能還是就是彰化之後切開處理就是台中市的部分先走不然他們也擔心說台中市的部分會去做到延宕的狀況是不是應該要一起做會比較好這樣進度才會一致"},{"start":289.997,"end":293.88,"text":" bicyn 以建設來說要合併在一起建設會比較好不過因為彰化的這個張東的這個都市計畫的問題那這個一直拖著確實是一直拖著"},{"start":320.197,"end":322.738,"text":"adequate to the current situation."},{"start":342.388,"end":344.43,"text":" bicyclie Chan, San Francisco City Council"},{"start":359.46,"end":382.963,"text":" bicyclia 呃這個分配的話了哈那在台中綠線的部分中央也要整個跟台中一起的話也要補助到182億多這麼龐大的一個經費未來如果說才化法通過之後我們中央的建設經費短少了那這些計畫還做得下去嗎"},{"start":384.512,"end":409.229,"text":"報告委員要看中央的整體的財務的狀況對於地方的補助如果中央沒錢那當然對地方補助的比例或許就要重新再來談是重新來談就是我們中央都沒錢了那我原本要對啊我們原本要負擔的這個幾百億的這個錢我們還有這個能力去負擔這樣高額的一個比例的經費嗎"},{"start":410.926,"end":426.97,"text":"是不曉得最後結論是怎麼樣啦會擔心說如果到時候我們該補助給地方的這個經費確實因為財化法的這個重新的估算那讓我們的預算也減少了那預算減少其實我們能夠支出的當然也就必然就少了"},{"start":427.15,"end":441.491,"text":"就這個軌道計劃建設啊就是最後還是會我們中央去發包執行嘛對不對因為這是涉及到專業工程專業的一個部分結運的部分是地方如果是高價化或立體化是中央"},{"start":442.068,"end":442.888,"text":"adequate to the"},{"start":463.619,"end":481.32,"text":"繼整個地方的一個建設的一個發展我們還是在這邊希望這個國民黨要三思因為畢竟地方的這個事務也是就是整個建設的推動也是非常的繁重那涉及到重大工程的部分像這個軌道建設"},{"start":482.682,"end":504.372,"text":"bedingt地方的一個人才也不足所以還是要仰賴中央來執行所以中央沒有錢了所以這個建設勢必會被延擋了這樣子對整個地方的一個發展跟百姓都是不是一個好的一個現象所以我們還是希望就是說在這個中央的財化法的部分我們還是要有一個合理的一個規劃跟合理的一個"},{"start":506.593,"end":513.664,"text":" bicyclope,在這邊希望我們就是要去思考到地方的一個建設發展跟百姓的一個福利,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時20分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["陳委員素月：部長早安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：今天委員會是針對運安會、運研所以及鐵道局的相關預算詢答，本席在這邊也再次的來關心一下目前彰化市鐵路高架的確定進度，是不是可以簡單說明一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，就如您所列，目前已經進入細部規劃的部分，那世曦工程公司也已經針對所有的細節在做評估了。"],["陳委員素月：之前有關機檢段的位置遲遲沒有辦法確定，現在都已經……"],["陳部長世凱：這些都已經確定了，跟彰化縣政府也都達成共識了。"],["陳委員素月：那以目前這樣子的進度，我們預計什麼時候可以動工？"],["陳部長世凱：我是不是請局長來說明？"],["陳委員素月：好。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，現在方案確定之後，我們還要完成相關的規劃作業跟環評，估計規劃作業還需要一年，然後環評的話，要看環評的程序，通常會超過一年半左右，所以等到綜規核定，估計在115年，或者是114年底有機會核定，才會進到設計跟施工。"],["陳委員素月：綜規核定是114年還是115年？"],["楊局長正君：我們現在判斷是要到115年。"],["陳部長世凱：應該要到115年。"],["陳委員素月：115年核定之後才做細部，所以還要再好幾年的時間，那這個部分我們希望中央該負責的程序，就要加緊行政的效率，不要老是被地方政府甩鍋，說是我們在延宕這個程序。再來，有關經費負擔的部分鄉親也都滿關心的，因為也看到之前工程會主委他有拋出說，宜蘭鐵路高架的地方負擔可以下降，就這個部分，我們彰化縣負擔的部分有可能再下降嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個都是固定比例啦！依每一個縣市的財政狀況，我們都是固定比例，不管是桃園或者是臺南或者高雄，其實都是固定比例在處理。另外還有一個方案就是專案協商的部分，有些縣市有一些比較特殊的狀況，可能要透過行政院那邊做專案協商的方式，才會做改變，那對交通部的立場來講，我們其實都是固定比例。"],["陳委員素月：所以就是全國一致性，不會有例外？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們是一致性。"],["陳委員素月：就是說別的縣市可以，那彰化縣……"],["陳部長世凱：除非的例外就是有提出專案協商，在行政院的部分進行專案協商，才有可能會稍微做改變，不然我們都是照固定比例在走。"],["陳委員素月：好。彰化市鐵路高架也是關係著整個彰化市的發展，彰化市的發展腹地比較受侷限，因為鐵道的阻隔讓市區的交通真的造成很多瓶頸，所以我們也希望這個工程真的能夠儘快有一個進度，然後儘快的早日高架化能夠完成。","接下來我想再請教一下有關臺中捷運綠線延伸到彰化的進度，目前的進度是如何？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，現在是臺中市政府在辦理相關的綜合規劃作業當中。"],["陳委員素月：所以我們彰化縣的進度，是會受限於臺中市的進度是嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：其實應該是說它整體的規劃過程當中，彰化縣政府要趕快提供落站點，它整體的規劃就有辦法把它規劃進去，那目前因為整個彰東的都市計畫還沒有完全定案，所以這個部分可能有些延宕。"],["陳委員素月：如果彰化縣政府對於落站點，目前是規劃兩個站嘛，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是兩個站，對。"],["陳委員素月：新增兩個站。那如果這兩個落站點一直沒有辦法解決，這樣是不是也等於會延宕到臺中市捷運的進度？"],["陳部長世凱：確實，臺中市那邊也有在反映這件事，他們希望有沒有可能還是彰化之後切開處理，就是臺中市的部分先走，不然他們也擔心臺中市的部分會導致延宕的狀況。"],["陳委員素月：那是不是應該要一起做會比較好？這樣進度才會一致，不然你切開的話，我想之後……"],["陳部長世凱：以建設來說，合併在一起建設會比較好，不過因為彰化彰東的都市計畫的問題，這部分一直拖著，確實是一直拖著。"],["陳委員素月：是。因為彰化市除了鐵路高架之外，捷運綠線延伸到彰化市也涉及到整個彰化市東區都市計畫的開發，如果這個建設沒有給地方時程上的壓力的話，我想可能也是會一直在拖，一直在延宕。所以如果臺中跟彰化市一起來規劃的話，我想這樣子對於彰化的地方政府應該還是會有一些壓力，能夠加快他們去面對跟解決他們的問題，不然我想他一拖再拖，也不曉得要拖到什麼時候。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：再來我想請教一下，剛剛看到我們關心的軌道計畫，包括彰化市鐵路高架，若照比例來分配的話，中央就要負擔296.3億；臺中綠線延伸彰化的部分，除了臺中的部分外，中央也要補助到一百八十二億多，這麼龐大的經費，未來如果財劃法通過之後，中央的建設經費短少了，那這些計畫還做得下去嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，要看中央整體的財務狀況，對於地方的補助，如果中央沒錢，那當然對地方補助的比例或許就要重新再來談。"],["陳委員素月：是，重新來談，就是我們中央都沒錢了，那我們原本要……"],["陳部長世凱：如果沒錢真的就沒有辦法。"],["陳委員素月：對啊，我們原本要負擔的幾百億的錢，我們還有能力去負擔這樣高額比例的經費嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不曉得最後結論是怎麼樣，會擔心說如果到時候我們該補助給地方的經費，確實因為財劃法的修正必須重新估算，讓我們的預算也減少了，預算減少我們能夠支出的當然也就必然少了。"],["陳委員素月：就軌道計畫建設部分，最後還是會由我們中央去發包執行嘛，對不對？因為這是涉及工程專業的部分。"],["陳部長世凱：捷運的部分是地方，如果是高架化或立體化是中央。"],["陳委員素月：是。如果財劃法通過之後，我們中央的經費短少了，若彰化鐵路高架發包的部分還是中央在做的話，這樣子我們沒有錢的話，我們也沒辦法做嘛，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：如果沒錢當然沒辦法做。"],["陳委員素月：對，所以我們希望就整個地方的建設跟發展，我們還是在這邊希望國民黨要三思，因為畢竟地方整個建設事務的推動也是非常繁重，涉及到重大工程的部分，像軌道建設，畢竟地方的人才也不足，還是要仰賴中央來執行，一旦中央沒有錢了，建設就勢必會被延宕了，這樣子對整個地方的發展跟百姓的福祉都不是一個好的現象。所以我們還是希望在財劃法的部分，中央跟地方的財源分配還是要有一個合理的規劃跟思考，希望本院同仁要去思考地方的建設發展跟百姓的福利。謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月召委。接下來有請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158151","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158151","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1cb5bad457d2a1302e99a743e0426cc75049c5ec402f88f0faaf7795eb2f6346c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:38:43 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map的建築物跟公司所在地的是一樣的"},{"start":220.729,"end":236.324,"text":"那我想要問一下2017年僑委會的立場到大陸去參加活動都不行那請問那僑務委員他所擁有的公司這樣子去掛五星旗是可以的嗎委員我不是說去中國大陸的活動都不行我剛剛特別說是針對跟官方我的問題是說那像他這樣子的行為擔任這個僑務委員你覺得"},{"start":245.233,"end":250.075,"text":"他在當時他現在這公司已經早就賣掉了他已經全部賣掉而且他在擔任僑務委員的當時開始他全部都他只剩下掛美國國旗而已那當時他確實基於有業務上客戶來拜訪等等的需求所以他把國旗全部一併都只要有交往的客戶他通通全部一併擺放"},{"start":269.002,"end":285.282,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":285.382,"end":305.519,"text":"那可是他其實那我問你喔那他懸掛這個五星期的時間點在2000年2020以前2020這是最後的一年2020年的7月他是2021年被我們2021年才被我們聘任的那你們怎麼會去聘任一個先前有過懸掛五星期跟我沒有辦法回答這個問題因為那時候"},{"start":307.421,"end":317.346,"text":"不是我負責的好那所以你們我就是想要問的問題是說未來你們在聆聘這個我們僑務委員的時候會不會再針對這個部分做更深入的調查因為對我來說我看到這樣子的一個事實然後我經過查證之後我覺得非常的驚訝因為呢其實這是很簡易就可以查證的事情然後我們的僑報也有很多人就是有當下就有反應但是我們的僑委會那個時候我們是置之不理的情況"},{"start":336.215,"end":354,"text":"那我覺得呢如果未來還有類似的狀況發生就是說我們領選出來的僑務委員他同時去懸掛中華人民共和國的國旗跟中華民國的國旗委員他並沒有同時他在2020年他就已經沒有年底他就取把這些都拿掉了但是2021年才被我們聘任"},{"start":354.86,"end":375.507,"text":"但是問題是說他先前的這個行為那你說我因為要參選這個僑務委員我就拿掉了然後我就覺得說那我就我就沒有問題了這個我覺得我也不太能夠同意就是說你對於國家的認同程度到哪裡這個難道都不會被你們在聆聽的時候有所扣分嗎委員我想他們這是商業的需求並不是國家忠誠的問題因為客戶來訪他有他商業的需求"},{"start":378.968,"end":381.813,"text":"我希望未來我們在臨聘的時候呢能夠多去考慮我們的僑務委員我們愛國的程度好不好謝謝許委員的這個建議跟提醒我也很認同"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":587,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時38分）謝謝主席，有請徐佳青委員長。"],["主席：委員長，請。"],["徐委員長佳青：徐委員早安。"],["徐委員巧芯：早安。在106年，時任僑委會委員長的是前考試委員吳新興，當時發生一件引起風波的爭議事件。羅致政委員開記者會說，有多位僑務委員赴大陸交流。那時候的報導談到，有些僑務委員去參加了中國大陸的統戰活動，於是呈報上級機關建議免除其職務，之後也免除了這八名僑務委員的榮譽職頭銜，這是當時的新聞。當時僑委會的態度非常明確，後續也引發僑界抗議，並投書批評僑委會的作法，我想請問，現在僑委會的態度是否依舊？也就是如果赴陸參加你們認定的所謂中國大陸的活動，至少在心證上你們認為是統戰活動的話，就會免除其職務？"],["徐委員長佳青：事實上，我們在聘任榮譽職的相關原則裡均註明得非常清楚，畢竟僑務委員是依據大院所通過的法律，由總統來聘任，所以僑務委員的慎重性很高，他們在僑界所代表的高度與重要性也很高。至於這案子，據我所知，若當時參加的是一般的大陸訪行並不會有問題，但他們特別跟官方有公開的見面，而且也在媒體上揭露，故而在當時引發爭議。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們看一下另外一個案例，也就是底特律的僑務委員盧蔓菁女士，他違反了中華民國僑務委員會榮譽職人選遴聘要點，我們接到的信件內容是這樣寫的：這個女士在2020年前，長年把中共五星旗掛在公司大門外，說是業務需要。他本身從大陸進口五金在美國經銷，客戶都是當地公司，所以並不需要放五星旗在門口增加業務。海外臺商在大陸投資採購，除非是親共者，否則在大陸以外的公司，並不會自願性懸掛五星旗。不過他是中華民國的僑務顧問，雖然也有放中華民國國旗，但這種同時放兩邊國旗的方式，我個人覺得非常不可取！我相信真正愛中華民國、把臺灣利益放在第一位的人，不會同時懸掛中華民國國旗跟五星旗。但是我們來看看這家被投訴的公司的照片，確實同時放了五星旗跟中華民國國旗！從Google 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Map……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們2021年才聘任。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們怎麼會去聘任一個先前有過懸掛五星旗……"],["徐委員長佳青：我沒有辦法回答這問題，因為那時候不是我負責的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想問的問題是，未來你們在遴聘僑務委員時，會不會再針對這部分做更深入的調查？對我來說，看到這樣的事又經過查證證實之後，我覺得非常驚訝！其實這是很簡單就可以查證的事，然後我們也有很多僑胞當下就反應，但那時候僑委會置之不理！如果未來還有類似的狀況發生，也就是遴選出來的僑務委員同時懸掛中華人民共和國的國旗跟中華民國的國旗……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，他並沒有同時！在2020年年底他就把這些都拿掉了，到2021年才被我們聘任。"],["徐委員巧芯：我的意思是指他先前的行為！現在因為要參選僑務委員所以拿掉了，這樣就沒有問題了？這點我覺得不太能夠同意。換句話說，你對國家的認同程度到哪裡？這些你們在遴聘的時候都不會扣分嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，他們這是商業需求，並不是國家忠誠問題！他是因為客戶來訪，有其商業需求。"],["徐委員巧芯：就我來看，這也是國家認同問題！所以我希望未來遴聘的時候，能多去考慮僑務委員的愛國程度。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝徐委員的建議與提醒，我也很認同，謝謝。"],["主席：委員長，你要加註，他兩個國旗都放，剛好一邊一國，這樣他很快就會拿掉一面。你請回座，這樣很平等，非常的平等。","接下來進行詢答的委員，沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分；二、審查114年度\n中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） 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期遇到這些困難是因為我們在招收學生的時候，在語言跟年齡的門檻上沒有設任何限制，所以早期的學生我們確實遇到這個困難。","從2022年開始，我們這個計畫是2022年正式擴大留用及培育僑生，2022、2023、2024、2025總共4年所編列的這些預算數，我個人的招生成績簡單跟委員說明一下，2022年的時候在3+4是兩千多人，接下來去年是四千五百多人，最後就讀是四千零六十幾位，今年招生數是一萬多人，我們錄取六千多人，最後來就學的也達到了5,700人，所以我們的速度是倍數成長的。這幾年我們就是因為發現到，第一個，我們這個方案有改變誘因，然後再加強前端華語能力的設定，加上我們把年齡層設定到必須在22歲以下，這樣子的成果出現以後，後面我們預期留下來完成學業的學生應當會提升很多。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝委員長。再來要提到的是僑生還有我們新南向的部分，另外一個是海外華語文學習深耕計畫，經費是1億3,000萬左右，比113年度又多了大概10%，僅僅檢視我們112年的成果就好了，有定22個目標，但是只有6項達標，所以沒有達到標準值的是超過72.73%，可能我們的華語推廣是遇到一個瓶頸。我想請教，華語學習確實是不容易，特別是完全沒有基礎的，但是如果我們千里迢迢邀請這些人來臺灣培訓，有沒有辦法說，不管是經費消耗較高的往返機票，或者是可以參加的人數非常有限，你看原訂目標40人才來14人，我想是不是可以換位思考，讓我們的師資走出去，直接到僑地辦理，這樣子派出去的種子教師可以開枝散葉，這樣效果會不會更好？等於說與其叫他們40個人過來，不如我們派1個人過去，他甚至可以教40個人的40個班，這個整體效益就會做完整的改變，不知道委員長認為這樣的說法怎麼樣？"],["徐委員長佳青：我非常同意委員的這個說法跟建議，事實上，我們後來就是調整成1年去海外巡迴培訓，或者辦研討會，1年是在國內來辦理，所以我們比較2次的差異跟成效，有部分的老師仍然覺得有一趟機會可以回到臺灣，他們可以連結到更多的資源，所以我們去年跟今年分別都有辦理在海外以及在國內的師資培育。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝委員長，我只是提供另外一個換位思考，它的必要性都有，但是資源的有效運用更重要。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為我看整個僑委會的執行率，可能是有遇到一些挑戰啦，這個部分下午的時候我們再來討論，謝謝委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝委員的關心，謝謝委員提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來進行詢答委員是王義川委員，王義川委員、王義川委員不在。","接下來進行詢答委員是徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分；二、審查114年度\n中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） ( 一) 莊守耕公益基\n金、(二)受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金基金","agenda_id":"1140801_00002"}}},{"id":"158149","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158149","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a16b03b783bd057414e99a743e0426cc75049c5ec402f88f0fb92ba5236964c1d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:25:04 - 10:31:35","影片長度":"00:06:31","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（詢答及處理）\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） \n（一）莊守耕公益基金。\n（二）受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金基金。\n12月16日、18日及19日（三天一次會））","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-16","start_time":"2024-12-16T10:25:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-16T10:31:35+08:00","duration":391,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.33846875,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.82221875,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.29846875000001,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.23346875000001,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.74721875,"end":142.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.67846875,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.90846875000003,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.02221875,"end":215.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.04784375000003,"end":263.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.58784375000002,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.96284375000002,"end":247.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.18409375000005,"end":263.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.73659375,"end":263.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.93909375000004,"end":282.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.31034375,"end":264.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.40284375000005,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.34346875,"end":268.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.77159375,"end":341.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.02409375,"end":387.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.31846875,"end":348.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.76909375,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.58221875000004,"end":391.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.90284375000005,"end":388.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.16846875000005,"end":389.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.78846875000005,"end":391.96971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.359,"end":10.186,"text":"羅委員早安委員長早上次本席有跟委員長這邊探討過這個三家市這個產學合作這個僑生專班那之前我們討論的是有關於這個僑外生的這個語言的問題然後語言的問題也造成這些僑外生學習的困難甚至有些讀不下去放棄學院然後返國的也有這是在資源上來講就是一個很大的一個浪費"},{"start":28.263,"end":28.644,"text":"三家市教學品質"},{"start":47.366,"end":48.027,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公益基金．．"},{"start":68.368,"end":69.588,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":93.877,"end":96.781,"text":"學生對課程的內容和先前認知不同老師的教學OK不OK還有學校的環境的滿意度等等"},{"start":112.7,"end":117.963,"text":"大家都覺得說來到台灣之後為什麼會落差這麼大那這孩子來到這裡之後我們僑委會有沒有主動再去跟他們到校去了解他們的這個學習的這個需求呢請問委員長跟盧委員報告以今年來說呢我們到11月底呢我們是有辦了4個場次是技高學校的專案訪試那同時呢我們到12月底呢會辦8場次的建校合作的機構訪試"},{"start":142.416,"end":168.37,"text":"除此之外我們今年也有委託一個學校做專案的研究瞭解學生的學習的一些障礙跟困難事實上就是如同委員所說我們也跟委員有同樣的發現就是不同國家來源的僑生他們的語言程度是有落差的比方說來自馬來西亞的普遍就是華語程度都非常好跟本地生幾乎是一樣"},{"start":169.29,"end":170.251,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":189.972,"end":192.653,"text":"一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、"},{"start":216.461,"end":243.652,"text":"大專技高職技高專分別開兩場會議就是希望能夠提供他們協助如果是來自華語程度好的學生我們在語言課程上請他們轉修英文就不要再修華文那如果是華文程度不足的學生呢就是繼續修華文那我們現在呢也協助因為傳統這些學校的老師呢教華文都是用教本地生的教法傳統教法那根本"},{"start":245.233,"end":245.753,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":263.759,"end":265.2,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":283.105,"end":302.889,"text":"因為有些學習的年限比較長那學生來的時候年紀又比較大他們會遇到他們的這個叫做life circle的問題可能很快就認識女朋友很快認識男朋友然後就進入這個很快的結婚狀態然後又去建立家庭那我們事實上是看到確實有不少學生發生這樣的狀況那他就懷孕就離開退學了"},{"start":307.13,"end":324.307,"text":"因此,今年我們有跟教育部也進一步爭取說有沒有可能改為休學的模式讓這些孩子這些學生他可能在家庭困難的這個階段一兩到兩年的時間度過以後他可以再回來同校同科系繼續恢復他的這個學籍課程"},{"start":327.45,"end":333.694,"text":"教育部今年跟我們溝通的結果他們有同意我們來執行那我相信有這兩項措施之後呢明後年我們學生的學習成效應當會有比較顯著的提升跟改善我們會持續來觀察對跟委員長有提到所謂的這個休學的這制度目前三家市是目前沒有這個"},{"start":347.443,"end":347.823,"text":"三家市僑生專班實行10年"},{"start":374.445,"end":391.852,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請徐佳青委員長。"],["主席：委員長，請。"],["徐委員長佳青：羅委員，早安。"],["羅委員美玲：委員長早。上次本席有跟委員長探討過「3+4產學合作僑生專班」的議題，之前我們討論的是有關於僑外生的語言問題，語言問題也造成這些僑外生學習的困難，甚至有些人讀不下去放棄學業然後返國了，在資源上來講這是一個很大的浪費。","再來，本席想要跟委員長探討的就是「3+4產學合作僑生專班」的教學品質，之前本席這邊也有接獲一些僑生反映說上課的內容不符合期待，這個部分可能僑委會要多去做了解，比如說，他們在母國所認知的跟來這裡上課的內容其實是不太一樣，甚至有孩子反映上課的時候，老師對於本地學生跟僑外生的上課內容、課程是不一樣的，也許就是因為語言的關係，所以老師對本地學生的教導方式跟對僑外生不一樣，甚至直接就讓他們觀看YouTube的影片，有孩子來這裡上的是餐飲課程，結果給他們看的影片就是教他們如何做烘焙，這樣的教學品質是非常糟糕的。所以我想了解的，僑委會這裡有沒有主動的跟這些僑外生做一個課程調查的滿意度詢問？我知道學校有學校的評鑑制度，可是我們看不到另外一面，就是學生對於課程的內容跟他先前的認知是不是一樣、老師的教學OK不OK，還有學校環境的滿意度等等，因為大家都覺得來到臺灣之後為什麼會落差這麼大，這些孩子來到這裡之後，僑委會有沒有主動再到校去了解他們的學習需求呢？請問委員長？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟羅委員報告，以今年來說，我們到11月底有辦了4個場次的技高學校專案訪視，同時我們到12月底會辦8場次的建教合作機構訪視，除此之外，我們今年也有委託一個學校做專案研究，了解學生學習的一些障礙跟困難。事實上，如同委員所說，我們也跟委員有同樣的發現，就是不同國家來源的僑生，他們的語言程度是有落差的，比方說，來自馬來西亞的普遍就是華語程度都非常好，跟本地生幾乎是一樣，緬甸的僑生或泰北的僑生基本上華語程度也相當不錯，但是如果來自菲律賓或是印尼的，相對就弱很多，所以在這方面我們今年有做兩項計畫跟補強，一個就是我們計畫到印尼、菲律賓、越南等這些現在主要的生源國，增加華語課程班級數的提供，以及用寒暑假的時間開設密集班，還有平時線上（online）繼續練習，我們希望加強這幾個國家的學生落差。第二個是他們來到臺灣以後，我日前跟十幾所大專、技高職、技高專分別開了2場會議，希望能夠提供他們協助，如果是來自華語程度好的學生，我們在語言課程上請他們轉修英文，就不要再修華文，如果是華文程度不足的學生就是繼續修華文。我們現在也有協助，因為傳統這些學校的老師教華文都是用教本地生的教法、傳統教法，學生有沒有聽懂他根本都沒在管，所以我們現在要祭出一些新的作法，包括提供雙語教材給老師，然後給老師做新的師資訓練，同時也祭出如果他的學生學習成績檢定通過之後，我們就會給他獎勵、給老師獎勵。"],["羅委員美玲：這是今年才要開始的？"],["徐委員長佳青：對，我們今年開始跟學校全面做這樣的一個方案規劃，溝通完，明年就正式開始執行，就是因為我們跟委員有同樣的發現，我們覺得如果是卡在語言的落差而降低學習成效的話，那是非常可惜的。","第二個，因為有些學習的年限比較長，學生來的時候年紀又比較大，他們會遇到他們的life cycle的問題，可能很快就認識女朋友、很快就認識男朋友，然後就很快進入結婚的狀態，又去建立家庭，事實上我們看到確實有不少學生發生這樣的狀況，他懷孕就離開、退學了，所以今年我們有跟教育部進一步爭取，有沒有可能改為休學的模式，讓這些孩子、這些學生可能在家庭困難的階段，1年到2年的時間度過以後，他可以再回來同校、同科系繼續恢復他的學籍、課程，教育部今年跟我們溝通的結果，他們有同意我們來執行，我相信有這兩項措施之後，明、後年我們學生的學習成效應當會有比較顯著的提升跟改善，我們會持續來觀察。"],["羅委員美玲：剛剛委員長有提到所謂的休學制度，目前3+4是沒有這個機制嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，都沒有。"],["羅委員美玲：所以他唸不下去或是想要休息，他就必須要辦退學，所以這部分也是後面本席想要跟委員長做探討的，當然很開心聽到委員長有提到說你們有注意到這一點，所以我們的辦法可能要來做一個修改，對於留住這些學生在校，我想這是有很大的幫助。3+4僑生專班已經實行10年了，這10年來我們看到了很多很多的問題，所以也不能讓這些問題留著，我們必須一一來做改善，不管是孩子的語言問題也好，或是教學的品質也好，我想僑委會這邊要付出多一點心力。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝羅委員關心，我們會繼續精進，謝謝。"],["羅委員美玲：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員，委員長請回。接下來進行詢答委員是陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分；二、審查114年度\n中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） ( 一) 莊守耕公益基\n金、(二)受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金基金","agenda_id":"1140801_00002"}}},{"id":"158148","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158148","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1d31ab3fa5d3b573de99a743e0426cc75049c5ec402f88f0f20bd5877b075db005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:19:33 - 10:24:39","影片長度":"00:05:06","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（詢答及處理）\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） 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phone."},{"start":255.995,"end":256.255,"text":"包括筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電、筆電"},{"start":275.502,"end":298.184,"text":"感謝提醒不過英文的部分我們會大力來加強而且英文的部分我期許你們給我一個時間點要回到上一張我們看到的就是一個QR code完成掃描其實這個內建QR code的網頁製作尤其變成英文版應該不難是不是可以給我一個時間點可以委員是不是我們明年過完農曆年後我們就把這個東西全部補正完畢"},{"start":300.009,"end":300.851,"text":"感謝委員的支持跟提醒,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時19分）謝謝主席。主席，有請委員長。"],["主席：委員長，請。"],["徐委員長佳青：林委員，早安。"],["林委員楚茵：委員長早。我要詢答的當然就是跟我們的預算有關，我們知道過去有所謂的僑胞卡，是實體卡，這一次我要問的是i僑卡，其實就是虛擬的僑胞卡，又算是二代的僑胞卡。我們知道其實這樣的申請都是為了接下來有助於僑委會針對我們海外僑民來做服務，但是我們知道過去的僑胞卡大概是發了10萬張，2017年換成所謂虛擬卡片之後，是在網路上申請，委員長，現在所謂的i僑卡是幾萬張？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我們從2017年發行到2022年，5年時間總共發行10萬張，那是僑胞卡的時代；從2022年9月底我們正式發行i僑卡，到今年剛好只有滿兩年，目前已經發行超過八萬多張。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以顯然是距離過去實體卡的10萬張還有2萬張的距離嘛，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["林委員楚茵：i僑卡是從網路上申請的，照理說，用網路申請應該更快、更方便，但是本席在瞭解這個預算的過程當中，有許多的二代僑青跟我反映了一個問題，請看一下，我們中文的申請網頁做得非常好，而且步驟都非常清楚，但是我們知道，所謂的二代僑青可能在中文的聽跟說方面很容易，但讀跟寫可能就沒有這麼好，而他們的英文能力或者是所謂僑居國語文的能力就會比較好。委員長，我進入了英文網站後發現，這個i僑卡到底要去哪裡申請不知道喔，如果你按下「Apply」，按進去之後出現螢幕上這一段話就沒有了，也沒有更詳細的解說，到底要去哪裡找呢？找了半天之後發現右上角有一個「Sign in/login」，就是申請的過程。其實不應該語言不同服務就不一樣，這是本席垂詢的地方，請問我們這次i僑卡的預算編列了多少？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們是只有維運費一百多萬而已。"],["林委員楚茵：只有維運費一百多萬？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["林委員楚茵：所以在這一百多萬當中，現在就只有網站的申請，沒有其他的申請方式？"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有，我們都是做線上，因為我們不希望大家拿實體卡很麻煩，一大堆卡在包包裡面，所以現在大家是有一支手機就隨時都可以用，只要一個卡號。針對英文版這部分，我們確實在檢討中，我們剛開始的時候就只有focus在中文版，做得還算可以，但是英文版確實很poor，就是很貧乏……"],["林委員楚茵：是的，我們都知道二代僑青大都生長於國外，這些我們所謂的第一代僑民，他們中文能力一定好，但是二代之後，甚至於現在都出現三代了，他們在申請上一定會遇到狀況，而且就像您剛剛說的，在我們的系統當中，是不是i僑卡會變成愛卡僑？就如委員長您剛剛說的，現在尤其是年輕人，他一定都是用手機或iPad，但是我特別請我們的同仁去處理的時候發現，只有用桌上型電腦才能完成申請，來來回回，只要透過手機或者是iPad，就會被卡住，而且花了40分鐘都無法完成……"],["徐委員長佳青：喔？"],["林委員楚茵：這個部分不知道到底是網路的問題，還是你們在系統使用上有一定的設定？這個是我們實測過的，這個部分也把問題反映給僑委會。委員長？"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝委員幫我們做測試，就我自己的了解，因為我自己是用手機辦的，所以我們手機填寫資料到登入，大概5到10分鐘，我就完成了，然後2個小時後就核卡給我了，所以我們基本上在做這個版的開發的時候，是包括電腦、筆電（notebook）或者iPad或手機等行動裝置統統可以用，我們是這樣子開發的，所以如果有卡住的話，我們私下來跟委員的助理了解，看看是WiFi當時在哪個系統有角落的問題，或者是不是點的時候點到哪個地方沒有直接進入那個系統，所以我們來協助了解一下……"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為今天主要……"],["徐委員長佳青：感謝提醒，不過英文的部分，我們會大力來加強。"],["林委員楚茵：是，而且英文的部分，我期許你們給我一個時間點，就是剛剛在中文網站看到的，放一個QR Code讓使用者可以直接掃描，其實這個內建QR Code的網頁製作，尤其是變成英文版，應該不難，是不是可以給我一個時間點？"],["徐委員長佳青：可以，委員，是不是在明年過完農曆年後，我們就把這個東西全部補正完畢？"],["林委員楚茵：好，OK，我只針對預算的部分來做詢答。"],["徐委員長佳青：感謝委員的支持跟提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。","接下來進行詢答的委員是羅美玲委員。委員沒有問完的部分，我們在預算審查還是可以溝通。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-22","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","黃仁","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王義川","馬文君","陳永康"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分；二、審查114年度\n中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） ( 一) 莊守耕公益基\n金、(二)受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金基金","agenda_id":"1140801_00002"}}},{"id":"158147","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158147","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1d76b477f1ee77853c691fc1ddc136966049c5ec402f88f0ffb433ea9b5ad6db25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:00:26 - 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回過頭來請教你。是。我在5月的,欸對不起,在這個12月初的時候有諮詢過部長齁,就是說"},{"start":52.455,"end":61.695,"text":"我還是一直特別針對員工協助方案這個EAP的整個衛福部的整個要再重新加強的部分嘛那部長也有承諾過我"},{"start":62.642,"end":88.532,"text":"而且也特別特別強調說一定會加強但我不曉得怎麼加強因為我們現在衛務部傳出一件又一件的這個霸凌事件那衛務部也本身又也喊出說要這個啟動嚴固演員工協助方案的EAP的實施甚至於這場安心計畫心理急救機制然後協助這個受事件影響的同仁來紓解這樣的一個壓力這都是衛務部講的嘛"},{"start":90.513,"end":98.985,"text":"那部長可以簡單答問我,現在所提供的員工協助方案是怎麼樣?我想員工協助方案推動計畫應該有一百..."},{"start":102.422,"end":129.533,"text":"大概有10年,這些年來都應該有10年以上的一個在推動的計畫而且是滾動式的一個修正當然上次委員有執行到我們的計畫編列的預算是比較少這個可能因為是前面多年來一直滾動的我也尊重原來過去多年來編的一個預算但是如果有必要當然是一定要去"},{"start":130.794,"end":141.614,"text":"要去提高啦齁那這一次因為我們有陣營可能在調查的這段期間可能會有一些大家心 同等們心裡需要"},{"start":143.191,"end":144.692,"text":"你等一下喔"},{"start":172.462,"end":190.978,"text":"我講一下齁,給部長做參考。這個員工協助方案,勞動部一年給員工有五次啦。貿易部一年給員工有幾次?簡單就好。三次嘛。你們是維持三次嘛齁。至少三次。至少三次啦齁。那你們最多幾次?我們來這邊答覆。"},{"start":195.784,"end":220.54,"text":"跟這個委員報告就是他有去他本身自己去尋求諮商的時候至少三次那諮商的團體他會給我們報告如果認為還需要深入的話我們就會根據評估報告再予以加強謝謝好那難關不也是五次衛務部只有三次你們覺得這樣是夠的"},{"start":226.929,"end":256.284,"text":"不好意思,我們是講至少三次,然後會根據評估報告繼續再予以加強。我現在齁,我給部長,你先不要回去吧,你要趕快過去,你的時間,對部長也沒準備,好啦。不好意思啦齁,因為我問你,你念名就請我一張一張啦,對,這樣比較辛苦你趕快過去齁。我寬配你們會務部的網站,目前只有國家中醫藥研究所明確在網站上有說明,你自己看。"},{"start":257.881,"end":284.493,"text":"就你想的嘛齁所謂的員工協助方案一年三次嘛其他的其他的我有找到有相關資訊是在106年叫做什麼員工協助方案數位教材微電影其他都沒有你們有沒有公告啊到現在沒有公告啊我們諸選了之後還沒有公告啊你們說要加強要提高整個啟動員工協助方案的相關的這樣計畫這個網站也沒有看到啊"},{"start":288.092,"end":315.932,"text":"所以就是衛務部的啟動方式不好意思委員齁其實我們每一次每年度的滾動計畫我們都會用公函通知各個單位那這個網站如果沒有更新這是我們需要進行檢討的地方我們回去會予以感謝人事數的可能相關的數位的預算應該就不用多給了吧齁因為從106到現在"},{"start":319.175,"end":347.235,"text":"一百零六年一月二十六到現在嘛然後部長已經有明示說要提高整個這個EAP的相關的一些企劃應該在這個網站裡必須要去公告才對嘛我們馬上來馬上這個齁 老東部已經弄得亂七八糟但是在心理上這一塊衛福部是專業的這是你的專業嘛齁那你們應該主管的相關資源應該都很到位怎麼結果弄起來比一個中醫藥研究所還"},{"start":348.956,"end":366.726,"text":"好像只有一個宗教研究所比較認真其他的好像都沒有這說不過去啦齁那上禮拜勞動部門部長對本委員會做出這樣承諾給部長做參考雖然114年度預算已經編列了因為他是兩個禮拜的部長"},{"start":368.194,"end":369.976,"text":"部長你是什麼時候就任呢?"},{"start":369.976,"end":380.024,"text":"大家很清楚嘛。114年的預算就是你的預算了啦。就是你的政策要去執行了嘛。那黃部長還講說,雖然114年的預算已經變略了,但他會去找錢。把勞運部整體的員工協助方案從180萬增加到235.9萬,然後同時115年度他會繼續增加預算。"},{"start":390.373,"end":411.19,"text":"相對目前勞動部一年雖然五次的諮商但接下來只要經過評估需要也會繼續增加這個次數那我再跟你分享我在兩年前在追司法院的時候他是在2022年被我檢討過一次的時候他原本是一年八次他現在已經提高到12次我們還要再三次還要四千塊才要再增加"},{"start":417.833,"end":424.067,"text":"衛福部咧?咱是衛福部咧?好,我強調一百,咱叫做衛福部咧?"},{"start":426.41,"end":448.659,"text":"我想我們一定來檢討、精進,如果有需要我們在預算上面,我們會由各個管道來爭取足夠的預算來做這件很重要的事情。還有一個很重要的事情,勞動部已經承諾要將承攬人力納入員工協助方案的服務對象,你們有嗎?你們的經濟有把這個納入嗎?準備納入嗎?還是到現在沒有要納入?"},{"start":451.901,"end":467.606,"text":"我們現在的員工協助方案就是我們在部裡面服務的各類人員、承攬人員是有包括?是有包括。好,那就很好。那就很好。那我就請教一下,衛務部首屬的單位包含像健保署人均57塊的員工協助方案要怎麼解決?怎麼包含?"},{"start":474.855,"end":494.271,"text":"五十七塊還不包含成人人員不是,我們是每個機關都有個別的員工先我當然知道,我怎麼會不知道我上次才把你們各個機關的員工學術方案的相關預算都羅列出來了啊那你說我有包含啊那我就請教你,我現在請教健保署這個機關它現在是人均五十七塊啊你說有包含啊,怎麼包含啊請說這個你要管到才對嘛你要掌握嘛,對不對"},{"start":505.339,"end":532.125,"text":"因為是這樣子,每個機關的預算是...是...我自己去問每個機關那我們會折成我們的所屬機關要加強這部分的預...折了嗎?對,沒錯你折了嗎?蛤?折成嘛,對不對?折了嗎?折成出去了嗎?公文出去了嗎?什麼時候發了啊?然後要求他們成人人員一定要納入在這裡面,真的你所講的啊?有了嗎?公文出去了嗎?"},{"start":534.516,"end":557.629,"text":"我們回去馬上檢討,如果沒有,還沒有完成的話,馬上來完成。所以部長你在這裡聲錄的跟A咖做的應該是,應該是很大的落差嘛。我現在問你聽你就知道,我現在其實是要問你聽的嘛。前面說的各種事項啊,還不包括承攬人員喔。那剛剛他答覆我是會把承攬人員納入嘛。那你說有折承嘛。你公文下去了沒有?沒有?如果有沒有下去,蛤?"},{"start":562.762,"end":565.523,"text":"目前衛福到底有多少承攬人員?請他回答好不好?所屬機關?"},{"start":585.578,"end":608.022,"text":"你們的所屬機關你掌握的你答覆委員會答覆清楚一點好不好你們要納入嘛那你要掌握嘛不好意思喔那個所屬的這個機關都是他們的勞務那個可能我會後再把相關資料你回答我這樣現在回答我這樣你們要先部長就不易啊你要納入你又不曉得所屬機關多少人你又要責省所屬機關"},{"start":615.438,"end":622.961,"text":"你現在公園還不發出去然後你們說要提精進計畫你們的預算有沒有被審查勒你們的霸凌事件是最多的勒你們還用這種心態在面對社會大眾我具體要求一周內麻煩部長把相關EAP的精進計畫提到委員會"},{"start":644.571,"end":652.195,"text":"那委員會來審視,可以吧?可以。好,謝謝。沒問題。我剛剛講霸凌案,你請回吧。我在11月21執行過,部長與中心黨提出要於前一天,20號,和部長在委員會的狀況為警。那請部長在霸凌案要調查清楚。"},{"start":671.021,"end":700.356,"text":"那上週衛福部把這個調查報告都已經調出來的齁我想這個我不希望用再次震驚這四個字啦齁但是三案成立然後其他不成立還有另三案然後不成立你又記過長照司長記過一次社保司長申借兩次社工司的司長申借一次這個叫什麼意思捨地無影三百兩"},{"start":704.693,"end":720.023,"text":"所以我才請教說部長整個調查報告之後你有看過嗎?你有經過審視的時候才對外做宣布嗎?他的霸凌既然不成立為什麼還要記過?李士林那天開記者會的時候你自己講到都結巴喔"},{"start":726.977,"end":740.485,"text":"你回答我你就小心一點報告委員我們這個裡面絕對都是要尊重我們這個裡面有那個委員外部委員他們的這個專業的那個成立所以整個這個過程全部都是由委員他們根據整個專業的部分來進行這個專業的那個調查"},{"start":743.306,"end":766.364,"text":"至於剛剛委員你剛剛有提到就是說為什麼他們那個不成立為什麼還要記過其實最主要事實上他們的行政有關於整個行政管理的那個部分行政管理要記過嘛對不對對沒錯所以說確實是有那個施掌處你在記者會你講的嘛我對照你講的話好不好是你聽聽看長照師朱司長在衛福部健康招時間要求人員要做特定運動衛福部認為並不合適"},{"start":768.645,"end":794.217,"text":"人員想如何運用健康操時間做何種運動應有自我選擇的權利要求深蹲及管理不當行流程討論後與行政懲處即一小過沒有錯吧?沒錯市長要求人員在健康操做特定運動這不構成霸凌卻涉及管理不當小過一支對吧?沒錯你要確定喔?沒錯這樣小過你會記不完喔?"},{"start":798.075,"end":807.645,"text":"午休時間,職員如果持續開會,賠命開會,算不算管理不當?健康操時間,如果還繼續連在座位上趕報告,算不算管理不當?要不要記小過?你想管理不當啊?你用管理不當來形容啊?那我就請教你啊,我現在就挑戰你啊。"},{"start":823.291,"end":850.429,"text":"報告委員齁,其實...不是只有社保司長嘛,社工司司長也是這樣嘛,對不對?社工司司長他是因為就是說,他們司裡面有一個...我現在跟你講到就是,他的霸凌案不成立對,他有管理不當所以這個三個司長有被記過一次申請兩次,申請一次嘛,對不對?叫管理不當嘛所以你的管理不當的認定、界定是怎麼樣?你的範疇到什麼程度?"},{"start":850.973,"end":878.631,"text":"我剛剛比喻的狀況是不是屬於管理不當要不要記過?所屬機關的所長都要小心了你們會經常管理不當喔其實像對於什麼叫霸凌其實老實說人事總處他們有一個那你已經界定他們沒有霸凌了你已經界定他們沒有霸凌了你現在是界定在他的管理不當裡面對他們提出記過跟申誡嘛我現在在跟你討論管理不當的認知跟範圍請你要說明清楚"},{"start":880.418,"end":886.625,"text":"這邊還有CDC還有FDA還有國建署還有健保署所以署長你們的管理要當喔你不當就要比照這樣辦理計過一次申請幾次喔"},{"start":898.871,"end":926.757,"text":"報告委員,我們兩個重點。第一個,其實對於什麼叫霸凌,其實真的是有一個定義。這個部分我們完全都是尊重專家。因為老實說,我們自己主席是我們也不宜太過的一個干涉。這是第一個重點。第二個重點現在目前就是您剛剛所說的,其實三個樣態裡面,三個市長裡面其實有管理不當,可是另外有一些是督導不周的一個情況。"},{"start":928.168,"end":931.474,"text":"三個樣態我講一段勞動部重啓調查中的職場霸凌事判斷重點也有三個樣態也不想跟你做參考第一"},{"start":939.284,"end":959.148,"text":"行為人具有職場上優越、地位或關係?沒錯。第二,行為欲略業務上必要且相當之範圍?是的。第三,員工有身體或精神上的痛苦或工作環境有惡化?沒錯。就所謂造成敵意環境。好。那你跟他現在記過這幾個,統統沒有欲略這三個重點?是的。好。你打呼我的啦,沒關係。"},{"start":966.184,"end":988.821,"text":"記者會上理事理事強調嘛齁這是一個同仁在健康招時間很和樂的一個活動施掌沒有強迫任何人但轉頭你跟他記了一個小過我覺得你們把問題複雜的把它搞得很複雜你不覺得齁你如果可以跟社會大眾說明清楚那你就去說明清楚"},{"start":989.912,"end":996.401,"text":"我還是希望部長你深思啊這事情你們評估清楚真的要評估清楚這事還有什麼後續你們思考清楚那都已經做給你們看了嘛就這個範圍嘛"},{"start":1007.694,"end":1028.673,"text":"報告委員我還是必須要說明一下我給你說明啊我都有時間給你說明對於所謂的但是你說明要讓人家聽得進去啊對於霸凌他大概有人事總處他有三個重要定義第一個就是必須是在職場環境裡面上對下運用權勢關係以延遲或者非延遲這是第一個重點"},{"start":1029.453,"end":1053.473,"text":" ．二、必須造成客觀上的工作上的敵意環境．第三、後果對於當事人．有產生他的整個心理貶抑．人格等等這些重要事實上是什麼叫持續性這是第一個判斷標準另外第二個是有沒有造成所謂的貶抑其實老實說你常常事實上這個我講下去我是覺得這也是為了"},{"start":1056.736,"end":1056.756,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":1077.219,"end":1077.239,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":1093.214,"end":1112.756,"text":"按照這個定義講到這裡,對我們民眾,我們真的是要有一個交代,要有後續,但是我們這個部分,我們因為整個程序,我們沒辦法受限於……市長,市長,我之前給你更多時間去講了,但是招委一直給我按鈴。"},{"start":1114.157,"end":1135.726,"text":"我必須要講,你這邊只有多一個持續貶抑啦。對啦。坦白講啦。那員工協助方案做好,就比較不會有持續的發生。這是你啊。這是你,正本期我知道。所以我一直在講這個邏輯問題嘛。第二件事情,我對這些被記過的首長我沒有任何意見。但是你們這樣的處理,沒有霸凌、記過,因為管理不當。我覺得這樣的,這會給人家感覺,你們到底在"},{"start":1144.184,"end":1159.484,"text":"在做什麼?這個我還請部長跟次長還有各位衛福部的官員要去對主管級的官員要去特別去審視一下何謂管理不當何謂管理不當而後的管理不當就比較辦理"},{"start":1161.755,"end":1165.899,"text":"最後請教國監署長,你要看蔣議員時間要不要給你,他剛才是超過10倍分,沒關係我超過10萬鐘還有倍分鐘。蘇理你對這次霸凌案有什麼看法?"},{"start":1186.487,"end":1208.954,"text":"我想保護員公司絕對是我們最高的原則那如何營造讓整個同仁能夠在安全在友善在沒有壓力的情況下就是沒有額外其他的壓力的情況下來安全工作我想針對這一次的霸凌案我覺得說我們都必須要慎切檢討"},{"start":1210.522,"end":1234.026,"text":"國建署依據衛生組織的身體活動和久坐行為指南推動每天運動30分鐘,可分兩次15分鐘,所以推出15分鐘上班族健康操。也因此未必有健康操的時間。但是為什麼長照市的市長在健康操讓職員在那邊伏地挺身?老挖署、北溫署則叫職員在走廊跑步。"},{"start":1236.491,"end":1261.377,"text":"執掌上花個15分鐘運動你們要注意啦但是這個安全和福利意識應該是更需要嘛對不對然後現在這個健康的風氣還蠻盛行有的人下班之後他會到健身房去運動嘛你們要求他做這些事情他只要專注的把工作完成不是就一件事一件負責任的"},{"start":1264.088,"end":1264.849,"text":"在長寿司的健康操時間"},{"start":1279.235,"end":1304.086,"text":"有一次有呈現說他做福利挺身,那個是在兩年前的時候因為有一個有一個新進來的時候,他有在練身體啦另外一個去替代他的年輕人,我跟他說,不然你們兩個變化嘛就這麼一次啦,不是說每一次都在做福利挺身那其他的話,我據我了解應該是市長帶著大家做一些可能"},{"start":1305.146,"end":1322.36,"text":"也許大家認得也不舒服或者是怎麼樣剛剛次長有提過的一些健康潮這個要檢討啦我們大家相信沒有問題嘛但是你看老化署、北溫署他就在走廊去跑步嘛所以國健署就把資金訂出來我是要求這樣嘛可以嗎"},{"start":1324.154,"end":1347.512,"text":"謝謝,我們有那個健康操的這個示範的影帶請大家跟著一起做所以都沒有用啦你把指引訂出來啦,可以吧這個健康操的影帶很多年前就有我在十幾年前在台大醫院十點到三點都要停十幾分鐘然後有錄影帶幫醫生就這樣做那個是啊是啊,他可以給指引沒有啦,他可以給指引訂出來,可以吧"},{"start":1353.035,"end":1356.603,"text":"我們來想辦法好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝謝謝劉建國委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1015,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我先請教你一下，霸凌案的報告都有經過你的審視之後才對外說明嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：調查小組完成了以後，有送給我看，然後再公告。"],["劉委員建國：所以有經過你的審視之後才對外說明、對外報告，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，OK，那等一下再回過頭請教你。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我在12月5號有質詢過部長，即我還是一直特別針對員工協助方案（EAP），是衛福部整個要再重新加強的部分，部長也有承諾過我，而且也特別強調說一定會加強，但我不曉得要怎麼加強，因為現在衛福部傳出一件又一件的霸凌事件，衛福部本身也喊出說要啟動員工協助方案（EAP）的實施，甚至於職場安心計畫、心理急救機制，然後協助受事件影響的同仁來紓解這樣一個壓力，這些都是衛福部講的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：部長可以簡單答復我，現在所提供的員工協助方案是怎麼樣的內容？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想員工協助方案推動計畫這些年推動下來已經應該有十年以上的時間了，而且它也是一個滾動式的修正，當然上次委員有質詢到我們這個計畫編列的預算比較少，可能因為這是之前多年來一直在滾動的，我也尊重過去多年來編的一個預算，但是如果有必要，當然是一定要去提高，這次我們有鑑於在調查的這段期間，可能同仁們心理上需要有一個諮商的管道，所以即時推出兩個為期兩週的職場安心計畫，個人有16個完成諮商，團體有兩個場次，是有完成這樣一個諮商，如果有必要，我們都會繼續來安排、來持續這個計畫。"],["劉委員建國：我來講一下，給部長參考，關於員工協助方案，勞動部給員工一年有5次，衛福部一年給員工有幾次？簡單回答就好。"],["李處長玉惠：3次。"],["劉委員建國：你們還是維持3次嘛？"],["李處長玉惠：至少3次。"],["劉委員建國：你們最多可以幾次？"],["李處長玉惠：跟委員報告，他本身自己去尋求諮商的時候，至少是3次，諮商的團體會給我們報告，如果認為還需要深入的話，我們就會根據評估報告再予以加強，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：勞動部也是5次，衛福部只有3次，你們覺得這樣是夠的？"],["李處長玉惠：不好意思，我們是講至少3次，然後會根據評估報告繼續再予以加強，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：你先不要回去，這樣走來走去也是要花時間的，對部長也不尊重……"],["邱部長泰源：他比較害羞。"],["劉委員建國：是，不好意思啦！麻煩我問完你再回去坐，省得你這樣走來走去，我翻遍你們衛福部的網站，目前只有國家中醫藥研究所明確在網站上有說明，你自己看，就是你講的，所謂的員工協助方案，一年3次，至於其他的，我有找到的相關資訊是在106年，叫做什麼？叫做員工協助方案數位教材（微電影），其他都沒有，你們也沒有公告，到現在沒有公告，我們質詢完之後還沒有公告啊！你們說要加強提高整個啟動員工協助方案的相關計畫，這個網站也沒有看到啊！所以就是衛福部的啟動方式？"],["李處長玉惠：不好意思委員，其實我們每年度的滾動計畫，都會用公函通知各個單位，這個網站如果沒有更新，這是我們需要精進檢討的地方，我們回去會予以……"],["劉委員建國：人事處相關的數位預算應該就不用多給了吧！因為從106年1月26日到現在，部長已經有明示，說要提高整個EAP的相關計畫，應該在這個網站必須去公告才對嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：我們馬上來……"],["劉委員建國：部長，勞動部已經弄得亂七八糟，但是在心理上這一塊衛福部是專業，這是你們的專業，主管的相關資源應該都很到位，怎麼結果弄起來比一個中醫藥研究所還……好像只有中醫藥研究所比較認真，其他的好像都沒有，這說不過去。上禮拜勞動部洪部長對於本委員會做出這樣的承諾，給部長做個參考。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：雖然114年度預算已經編列了，因為他是兩個禮拜的部長，部長，你是什麼時候就任的大家很清楚，114年的預算，就是你的預算、就是你的政策要去執行，洪部長還講雖然114年預算已經編列了，但他會去找錢，把勞動部整體的員工協助方案從180萬增加到235.9萬，同時115年度他會繼續增加預算，相對的目前勞動部一年雖然5次的諮商，但接下來只要經過評估需要也會繼續增加次數。再跟你分享，我2年前在追司法院的時候，它是在2022年被我檢討過一次，它原本是一年8次，現在已經提高到12次，我們還停在3次、還在視情況增加，衛福部欸！我們是衛福部，我再強調一次，我們叫做「衛福部」！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想我們一定來檢討、精進，如果有需要在預算方面，我們由各個管道來爭取足夠的預算，來做這件很重要的事情。"],["劉委員建國：還有一個很重要的事情，勞動部已經承諾要將承攬人力納入員工協助方案的服務對象，你們有嗎？你們的精進有把這個納入嗎？準備納入嗎？還是到現在還沒有要納入？"],["李處長玉惠：我們現在的員工協助方案，就是在部裡面服務的各類承攬人員，是有包括。"],["劉委員建國：是有包括，那就很好。那我就請教一下，衛福部所屬的單位，包含像健保署人均57塊的員工協助方案要怎麼解決？怎麼包含？57塊還不包含承攬人員。"],["李處長玉惠：不是，是每個機關都有個別的員工協……"],["劉委員建國：我當然知道，我怎麼會不知道。"],["李處長玉惠：抱歉。"],["劉委員建國：我上次才把你們各個機關員工協助方案的相關預算都羅列出來了，但你說有包含啊！我就請教你，我現在請教健保署這個機關，它現在是人均57塊，你說有包含，怎麼包含？請說。這個你要管到才對，你要掌握嘛！對不對？"],["李處長玉惠：對，因為每個機關的預算是分別編列……"],["劉委員建國：所以我要自己去問每個機關？"],["李處長玉惠：我們會責成所屬機關要加強這部分的預……"],["劉委員建國：責了嗎？"],["李處長玉惠：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：你責了嗎？"],["李處長玉惠：啊？"],["劉委員建國：責成對不對？責了嗎？責成出去了嗎？公文出去了嗎？什麼時候發了？然後要求他們承攬人員一定要納入在這裡面，是不是你所講的？有了嗎？公文出去了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們回去馬上檢討，如果還沒有完成的話，馬上來完成。"],["劉委員建國：所以部長，你在這裡承諾的跟下面做的，應該是很大的落差，我現在問給你聽，你一聽就知道了，我現在其實是要問給你聽的，健保署是57塊，還不包括承攬人員喔！剛剛他答復我會把承攬人員納入，你說有責成，你公文下去了沒有？沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：我們回去馬上處理。"],["劉委員建國：洪部長已經答應我，114年度的預算當然不是在他的任內編列，但是他會想辦法去把錢找出來，我希望部長也可以比照辦理，可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：好，目前衛福部到底有多少承攬人員，請他回答好不好？你們的所屬機關、你掌握的，你清楚答復委員會好不好？你要納入，那你要掌握嘛！"],["李處長玉惠：不好意思，所屬的機關都是他們的勞務，可能我會後再把相關資料……"],["劉委員建國：我以前的個性，我會跟你拍桌子，我跟你說真的！你回答我這樣、現在又回答我這樣，你們要陷部長不義啊！你要納入，你又不曉得所屬機關多少人？你又要責成所屬機關，你現在公文還不發出去，然後說要提精進計畫，你們的預算還沒有被審查、你們的霸凌事件是最多的，你們還用這種心態在面對社會大眾，我具體要求1週內麻煩部長把相關EAP的精進計畫提到委員會，讓委員會來審視，可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"]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tatto一個社會主宰,也參加一個廟宇的揭扁。但是賴總統在臺南的時候,他有做幾項重大的政策宣誓。除了行政院拍板,臺灣是六大區域的產業和生活圈以外,他特別提到臺南。"},{"start":51.621,"end":70.736,"text":"總統說國家會大力的支持臺南的交通建設尤其在鐵路地下化還有立體化國家會支持讓臺南的交通建設脫胎換骨總統特別提到現在臺南的國際機場在疫後已經完全沒有國際線"},{"start":72.435,"end":98.363,"text":"那這一點我也希望交通部能夠支持是 這個我們要來努力爭取台南機場如果可以有國際線我相信很多台南鄉親都會比較方便我希望交通部能夠全力支持這一點另外剛提到了總統說國家會支持台南的鐵路立體化和地下化那現在地下化大概原台南市區以外再加上永康這個已經算定案"},{"start":99.807,"end":120.493,"text":"我今天要跟部長講的就是我們新式鐵路立體化他現在台南市政府把可行性的評估已經送布了希望交通部能夠儘速審查因為你知道新式吧南科之所在啦全世界最重要的半導體"},{"start":121.713,"end":148.952,"text":"高科技產品的生產基地就在新市南科結果交通進出還要停鐵路平交道這實在是非常的落伍那目前新市鐵路的立體化高架化的意思大概全長有4.6公里它可以消除現有的新市五個鐵路平交道從此新市就不會有鐵路平交道還有一個地下的寒凍"},{"start":150.452,"end":152.995,"text":"總經費大概142億3700萬跟交通部希望爭取到85億85.6億在前任的李孟岩部長的時候經費他已經有答應"},{"start":165.486,"end":194.281,"text":"重點是臺南市政府也已經完成了可前進研究現在就送到我們交通部來那我希望部裡面是不是能夠加速審查報告委員這個他的可前進研究剛送到交通部那這個部分我們來加速因為我知道這個南科的發展速度相當的快那周圍的都市發展也很快這個部分我們來加速尤其他因為新式的鐵路高架他連那個車站都必須要往北移"},{"start":195.206,"end":204.703,"text":"因為他那個車型的坡度的問題那完北宜就會有一個新的新市的車站移到現在新市北邊的農業區那未來抱歉"},{"start":208.857,"end":231.73,"text":"接下來的新站周邊就會有開發包括停車場包括轉運站新增也會有商業區營造新市北邊就北新市的生活圈其實也等於就是很靠近南核了所以這個計畫其實非常重要希望交通部能夠盡速予以審查好這個部分我們來努力加速你好我要跟部長討論一個問題現在我們在"},{"start":237.287,"end":250.696,"text":"前幾年我有諮詢過交通部部裡面也提出了我請運燃所林記國所長就是第一個我們現在到底對車輛如何課稅我們的燃料稅"},{"start":252.199,"end":253.5,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":275.524,"end":284.011,"text":"後來很多的建議嘛到底那你要不要改為隨郵徵收或者是隨里程徵收或者是隨車重徵收結果運輸研究所變了兩筆錢2017年和2018年花了700多萬去做研究報告那研究的結果就是各有優缺點"},{"start":299.454,"end":322.418,"text":"所以就是不建議改變嘛,是不是這樣?那這個研究報告這塊碼要下?跟委員報告一下,當時的研究我們比較了目前的隨車徵收、隨伍徵收跟隨理財徵收。你花了700多萬,拿了一堆報告。綜合的評估是目前現階段還是維持隨車徵收。就是什麼都不要變?"},{"start":322.858,"end":325.359,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":353.254,"end":361.125,"text":"好那電動車到底會不會科徵道路使用費?什麼時候科徵?你要如何科徵?"},{"start":362.572,"end":389.139,"text":"跟委員報告所以這也是為什麼當時綜合評估因為考慮到整個車輛的你回答我現在問你電動車電動車未來就是會參照因為現在還在政策鼓勵那未來等到他普及到一定的程度還是要隨車就是排照稅的方式他會按照他的排氣量然後來這個換算應該要合理徵收多少的所以電動車一樣是隨車徵收對那按照排氣量"},{"start":389.679,"end":391.121,"text":" bicyC.電動車的馬力電腦軟體可以改你知道嗎"},{"start":404.497,"end":421.026,"text":"adequ?我瞌睡的時候我當然會用低馬力給你瞌嘛那我再調一下馬力就回來了我不知道但是你政策要對外說明要跟社會溝通現在因為很多電動車主他很惶恐"},{"start":421.994,"end":450.552,"text":"到底我會不會課稅那我要如何課稅我剛網路上有很多的影片很多人在估算有的也有算到一年可能要繳十幾萬的稅我不知道或七萬八萬的稅都很可怕你這樣會影響會不會影響電動車的銷售會不會影響造成現有車主的惶恐我不知道但一定會啦對不對"},{"start":451.837,"end":455.159,"text":"報告員目前的那個電動車的車輛數還沒有到達需要課稅的狀況所以應該還要一段時間那你要幾%才開始課?"},{"start":461.877,"end":481.382,"text":"我們有規劃幾百萬?目前目前就是說電動小客車的部分大概是將近這一個9萬輛那目前 幾百萬?暫爆白數幾百萬?600多萬輛它是這一個將近這一個9萬輛的話大概是一個1%多啦"},{"start":484.203,"end":506.936,"text":"目前數量並不多目前我們對於這個電動車科契纜費的一個規劃就是說原則上就是說到目前還沒有實質去影響到契纜費這個相關分配的一個部分所以我們要繼續免稅這個上次在這個交通委員會大概也公文報告說目前預估的年期可能是在2030"},{"start":508.413,"end":510.675,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":524.324,"end":525.425,"text":"二、審查114年度"},{"start":542.152,"end":548.819,"text":"還有你要把那個名字改掉啦,你說電動車課徵棄燃稅你剛這麼講嘛,那電動車都沒吃氣,你要棄燃稅。這會讓很多車主造成誤解啦,這筆錢其實是所謂的,應該算道路養護費啦,使用者互惠是公平的。"},{"start":562.512,"end":564.493,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算．"},{"start":586.241,"end":590.684,"text":"台灣以後不管是汽油車電動車都是隨車徵收未來未來是部長大概台灣是獨一無二全世界很少隨車徵收因為這是很不公平而且這個是最落後的一種課程方式"},{"start":614.113,"end":642.528,"text":"因為你既然叫道路使用費那我買車你應該按照使用的量數啊對不對你買車如果不開勒,里程數低一樣都繳同樣的稅當然對你們來講課程最簡單啊是不是這樣你計算成本比較低嘛目前是採一個平均的概念啊確實有些人是沒有用的這樣哪有什麼平均概念這個就以前就搞這一套搞下來到現在啦"},{"start":643.934,"end":644.315,"text":"二、審查114年度"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時9分）謝謝主席。本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，有一件事，你知不知道13日，就是3天前，賴清德總統有回到臺南，他去一個社會住宅的動土，也參加一個廟宇的揭匾。賴總統在臺南的時候有做了幾項重大的政策宣示，除了行政院拍板臺灣是六大區域的產業和生活圈以外，他特別提到臺南，總統說國家會大力支持臺南的交通建設，尤其在鐵路地下化還有立體化，國家會支持，讓臺南的交通建設脫胎換骨。總統也特別提到，現在臺南的國際機場在疫後已經完全沒有國際線，這一點我也希望交通部能夠支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個我們要來努力爭取，臺南機場如果可以有國際線，我相信很多臺南鄉親都會比較方便。"],["林委員俊憲：我希望交通部能夠全力支持這一點。另外，剛提到總統說國家會支持臺南的鐵路立體化和地下化，現在地下化，大概原臺南市區以外，再加上永康，這個已經算定案了。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我今天要跟部長講的就是我們新市鐵路立體化，現在臺南市政府把可行性評估已經送部了，希望交通部能夠儘速審查。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：你知道新市吧？南科之所在，全世界最重要的半導體、高科技產品的生產基地就在新市南科，結果交通進出還要停鐵路平交道，這實在是非常的落伍。目前新市鐵路的立體化，高架化的意思啦！大概全長有4.6公里，它可以消除新市現有的5個鐵路平交道，從此新市就不會有鐵路平交道，還有一個地下的涵洞，所以總經費大概142億3,700萬，跟交通部希望爭取到85.6億。這在前任的李孟諺部長的時候，經費的部分，他已經有答應了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：重點是臺南市政府也已經完成了可行性研究，現在就送到交通部來，我希望部裡面是不是能夠加速審查？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，它的可行性研究剛送到交通部，這個部分我們來加速，因為我知道南科的發展速度相當快，周圍的都市發展也很快，這個部分我們來加速。"],["林委員俊憲：對，尤其因為新市的鐵路高架，連車站都必須要往北移，因為車型坡度的問題，往北移就會有一個新市的車站移到現在新市北邊的農業區，未來新站周邊就會開發，包括停車場、包括轉運站，也會有新增商業區，營造新市北邊，也就是北新市的生活圈。其實也等於很靠近南科了。所以這個計畫其實非常重要，希望交通部能夠儘速予以審查。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分，我們來努力加速。"],["林委員俊憲：另外我要跟部長討論一個問題，在前幾年我有質詢過交通部，部裡面也提出，我請運研所林繼國所長，第一個，我們現在到底對車輛如何課稅？我們的燃料稅，在2018年的時候，交通部希望把它改名字，他們說這個名字容易造成誤解，改為「公路養護修建及安全管理費」，實際上使用者付費，也就是使用道路的人要付這筆錢嘛！現在是隨車徵收，後來很多的建議，到底你要不要改為隨油徵收，或者是隨里程徵收，或者是隨車重徵收。結果運研所編兩筆錢，2017年、2018年花了七百多萬去做研究報告，研究的結果就是各有優缺點，所以就是不建議改變，是不是這樣？這個研究報告，我也會寫！"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告一下，當時的研究，我們比較了目前的隨車徵收，以及隨油徵收、隨里程徵收……"],["林委員俊憲：你花了七百多萬，拿了一堆……做了一個報告。"],["林所長繼國：綜合的評估是，目前現階段還是維持隨車……"],["林委員俊憲：就是什麼都不要變？"],["林所長繼國：然後未來就是要看技術、里程跟車重的技術發展。"],["林委員俊憲：這一看幾十年了啦！你不會變啦！你知道嗎？官僚就是說不要變我比較沒事，我才不會自找麻煩，你會提出說你希望改變，你不是自找麻煩嗎？怎麼可能？所以不會進步就是這樣啦！","那我再請教，現在電動車的數量增加，它越增加的話，當然用油的車就減少，那電動車到底會不會課徵道路使用費？什麼時候課徵？你要如何課徵？"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，所以這也是為什麼當時綜合評估，因為考慮到整個車輛的……"],["林委員俊憲：你回答我，現在是問你電動車……"],["林所長繼國：電動車未來就是會參照，因為現在還在政策鼓勵，那未來等它普及到一定的程度，還是要隨車，就是依照牌照稅的方式，它會按照它的排氣量，然後來換算應該要合理徵收多少的道路……"],["林委員俊憲：所以電動車一樣是隨車徵收？"],["林所長繼國：對。"],["林委員俊憲：按照排氣量？"],["林所長繼國：是，就類似現在的……"],["林委員俊憲：電動車有排氣量嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：馬力，應該是馬力。"],["林所長繼國：馬力，馬力會換算。"],["林委員俊憲：你知道電動車的馬力，電腦軟體可以改你知道嗎？"],["林所長繼國：這個就是技術上面要來……"],["林委員俊憲：你知不知道？對不對？我課稅的時候，我當然會用低馬力給你課嘛！那我再調一下，我的馬力又回來了。"],["林所長繼國：這個在車輛型式安全審驗時就確定了。"],["林委員俊憲：我不知道，但是你政策要對外說明、要跟社會溝通，現在很多電動車主很惶恐，到底我會不會課稅？那我要如何課稅？我看網路上有很多影片，很多人在估算，有的也有算到一年可能要繳十幾萬的稅，我不知道啊！或7萬、8萬的稅，這很可怕。"],["陳部長世凱：應該不會到這麼高。"],["林委員俊憲：你這樣會不會影響電動車的銷售？會不會造成現有車主的惶恐？我不知道，但一定會啦！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前電動車的車輛數，還沒有到達需要課稅的狀況，所以應該還要一段時間。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那你要幾%才開始課？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，目前電動小客車的部分，大概是將近9萬輛，那目前……"],["林委員俊憲：幾%？占掛牌數幾%？"],["林司長福山：六百多萬輛，它是將近9萬輛的話，大概是一%多，數量並不多。目前我們對於電動車課汽燃費的規劃就是說，原則上到目前還沒有實質去影響到汽燃費相關分配的部分……"],["林委員俊憲：所以我們還繼續免稅？"],["林司長福山：這個上次在交委會大概也有跟委員報告說，目前預估的年期可能是在2030年。"],["林委員俊憲：2030年才會開始徵收電動車的……"],["陳部長世凱：2030年如果車子有達到一定數量的時候就會，但是它增加的數量沒有那麼快……"],["林委員俊憲：到底是幾%啦？目標是幾%？"],["陳部長世凱：目前是一點多%啦！"],["林司長福山：對，目前是一點多%。"],["林委員俊憲：你目標到幾%才課徵？"],["林司長福山：這個有算一個數量，是不是委員容許會後提供給你？"],["林委員俊憲：機密喔？"],["林司長福山：沒有，比例沒有記得非常清楚啦！"],["林委員俊憲：你沒有記？一個數字也沒有記住？你的幕僚都沒帶來？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，因為今天是審……"],["林委員俊憲：還有你要把那個名字改掉啦！你說電動車課徵汽燃稅，你剛剛這麼講……"],["陳部長世凱：它就不可以叫汽燃稅。"],["林委員俊憲：電動車就不需要汽油，你要課汽燃稅？"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯，它沒有燃料。"],["林委員俊憲：所以會讓很多車主造成誤解啦！這筆錢其實是所謂的道路養護費啦！"],["林司長福山：道路維護跟安全管理的費用。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：使用者付費是公平啦！你車子有開上路，其實都應該繳這筆稅，只是政策要清楚啦！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：你自己有沒有看到，網路上有一堆影片在推算未來電動車的課稅金額？你自己有沒有看到？"],["陳部長世凱：我沒看過這個影片。"],["林司長福山：我們有了解，如果需要的話，我們適時來……"],["林委員俊憲：因為大家亂猜嘛！就一直猜嘛！因為我看到有7萬、8萬、9萬、10萬，所以我們就有一點……"],["林司長福山：這個部分我這邊跟委員補充報告一下，馬力的部分主要在車輛型式安全審驗就核定了，目前這個換算基本上是有一定的比例，應該不會有……"],["林委員俊憲：所以臺灣以後不管是汽油車、電動車，都是隨車徵收？"],["陳部長世凱：未來，未來是。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，大概臺灣是獨一無二啦！全世界很少隨車徵收，因為這很不公平，而且這個是最落後的一種課徵方式，因為你既然叫道路使用費，那你應該按照使用的量數，對不對？你買車如果不開呢？里程數低，一樣都繳同樣的稅。當然對你們來講，這樣課徵最簡單，是不是這樣？你稽徵成本比較低嘛！公務人員如果比較懶惰一點……"],["陳部長世凱：目前是採一個平均的概念啦！確實有些人是沒有用到這樣……"],["林委員俊憲：哪有什麼平均概念，以前就搞這一套到現在，但重點是你要先讓社會清楚你的政策方向，跟社會要有對話，你要開一個說明會或公聽會之類的，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝部長，謝謝兩位。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來有請陳素月召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158145","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158145","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a15de81b98c946fc01041ac1bd29e6d5ff049c5ec402f88f0f886f62d9cd790b2b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:57:04 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bicy,這個部分我們有跟那個主計總署已經有達成共識了,我們有一個確定的方案,折衷方案,所以這個我們會盡快。"},{"start":532.563,"end":556.523,"text":"因為年終快到了他們現在董事會要計算是牽涉到我虧損的是彌補是不是可以可以可以卡不過去所以這個就會影響他們的年終獎金花跟不花這個問題這個沒問題這個我要拜託部長一下好另外這是我們那個那個應安手啊我要拜託你們你們在研究這些當然對交通有幫助"},{"start":557.406,"end":563.298,"text":"可是有一點你們那個老人家習慣也就是你們編列450萬去開發高齡道安學習軟體"},{"start":570.558,"end":597.716,"text":"我必須要提醒林首長你們不要動不動老人家只要超過70歲他怎麼會去運用這些少之又少依照年輕人20歲以下那當然用的是百分之百那未來他們會用但是經過70歲他使用力只有百分之0.8所以你花了這些錢去做這些"},{"start":598.636,"end":599.616,"text":"四合嗎?"},{"start":599.616,"end":623.325,"text":"這第一個我要提醒喔你們編列預算是有編列這一筆還有另外我還要跟您所長你們不要動不動就是陸老師啊我上次跟部長建議過啦陸老師這個這個政策講快一點他們做的成績不好不能因為這些都是你們交通幫的退下來去做陸老師啊你們就是編預算編給他450萬並不是很多"},{"start":626.946,"end":645.578,"text":"但是效果一定會大打折扣我要拜託林所長重新改變預算我們支持但是不要忘了這效果不好我必須要去提醒一下所以我也拜託雖然450萬並非很多但是你要恰到好處嘛"},{"start":646.178,"end":662.788,"text":"你明明知道老人家根本不會上網你去做這些幹什麼你明明知道路老師這些都是要我們的委辦會但是成效不髒的所以這個因為時間關係我要拜託部長你可能雖然是450萬小問題"},{"start":665.109,"end":677.938,"text":"但是這個就成為是讓那個名字平高而讓會馬因為本來老人家不是用這種軟體陸老師成果不好那你們偏偏為什麼還要再編這個預算"},{"start":679.478,"end":697.177,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個有跟會收集國際的一些案例不是只有軟體事實上是搭配很重要的體驗活動所以不一定是陸老師好啦那你編列預算要講清楚好不好你如果講不清楚欸被我砍掉你不要怪我啊"},{"start":697.517,"end":713.923,"text":"因為你自己講不清楚的啊我已經產生錯覺啊但是你們為什麼不講清楚所以這個部分要拜託部長可能要監督其實編列預算不要敷立法委員啦其實立法委員大家都很認真啦你寫出來怎麼樣我們就會聯想什麼那如果你沒有寫的我們也會把問題找出來所以要拜託"},{"start":721.186,"end":722.129,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":294,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時57分）謝謝主席，請運安會林主委。"],["主席：運安會林主委。"],["林委員國成：另外航調組要不要上來幫忙一下？"],["主席：航調組組長。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["林委員國成：主委，其實我對於你們這些調查單位跟研究單位，過去以我個人對於你們的認知，你們各種編列預算只要是按部就班去做，基本上我們是支持。可是有一些問題我們必須要去提醒林主委，也就是我們輕航機的事故、飛安，到底誰要來調查？誰要來管？這是很重要的。林主委，所以我要問輕航機的事，最近一件就是12月9號在屏東的事故，第一，我要了解，你們現在調查得如何？第二，為什麼12月9號……這個機種跟這一架飛機已經連續兩次的事故，不要每一次都是鬧出人命之後才開始要來重視。主委，你存在的功能，貴委員會存在的功能，本來就是有瑕疵就調查，有問題就要糾正，本來就是這樣。所以我要請教主委，12月9號這一架輕航機在屏東所發生的事故，你們進行調查得如何，可不可以跟本席說明一下？"],["林主任委員信得：報告委員，這個案子已經確實立案調查，它是連續，誠如委員剛剛所提的，超輕型載具失事的系統性，我們已經在做統計分析。我們最近也跟民航局有聯繫，有三個主要議題，譬如他沒有在核定的空域裡面來進行飛航活動，這是違法的，還有超輕型載具的維修保養紀錄，坦白講也不是那麼完整。最主要他沒有遵照飛行手冊的相關規範來操作，這個最近我們跟民航局也在開會討論，他們也知道，會加派人力來督導。"],["林委員國成：好，飛安組，主委所講這些是一個大方向，你們現在所調查的這些，我在乎的就是輕航機的管理跟安全，因為你們調查之後才有辦法在管理部分討論如何約束，但你們調查不出來，講這些是民航局來管，但是你們調查的結果會連帶影響他們的管理。我要請問組長，你們現在調查，我比較在乎的是這一臺輕航機，它已經兩次發生事故了，問題在哪邊？這個不是只有飛行員的問題喔，是不是它的機種，或者它改裝之後確實是有問題，組長，你可不可以說明一下，再深入、技巧性地你們的調查結果，跟本席說明一下，好不好？"],["劉組長東明：是，跟林委員報告一下。目前來講在輕航機的調查方向，我們在主委的指導之下，我們也非常重視這一些事情。根據過去一些調查的報告，已經結案的一些事件裡面，大體上就是對於輕航機上面的一些維修，它並不完全按照原廠給的一些規範，我們覺得這是一個重點。同時在飛行操作的部分，在訓練方面，我們也發覺了一些重點，都在我們的調查報告上面可以看得到。林委員指教的是未來的管理方面，因為現在輕航機頻率會越來越多，包含最近還有一些無人機等等，頻率會越來越多，目前來講，我們已經跟民航局的標準組，我們一起再去看這一方面的事情。"],["林委員國成：好，我建議啦，我現在的PowerPoint你可以看得出來，7月份、8月份，11月份、12月份，這些輕航機的事故迫降機率，情況非常嚴重，也就是幾乎每一個月都有輕航機的意外不斷，甚至有人受傷。這個部分，我要拜託主委，拜託我們委員會裡面各組，針對這些問題要趕快未雨綢繆把問題找出來，不然只會有越來越多的輕航機，事故也會越來越多。我們的監督功能跟調查功能，不要只有調查，我們調查事故之後要預防，也就是如何去預防，這很重要。所以我特別要提醒主委，不要因為你們平常的這些調查，而影響你們的預算，這是我特別要提醒，所以希望主委跟我們各組這裡要盡到一些調查、監督跟建議之責任，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們會提出安全改善建議。"],["林委員國成：還有一點，很簡單，在7月份這件在烏日的事情，發生10天了你們才知道耶！"],["林主任委員信得：所以我們有處罰他，因為他沒有通報。"],["林委員國成：主委，不是啦！我們提出來，特別你們要主動，這非常重要，不要10天以後，跟你們通報以後，你們才來做，這個功能幾乎是不可以啦，好不好？好，主委請回。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝。"],["林委員國成：請陳部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["林委員國成：還有林所長。"],["主席：林繼國所長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員國成：部長，我簡單說一下，因為我們同事也已經講臺鐵漲價的問題嘛，你也講過年以前不可能漲價啦，我還是要特別提醒你，我有看到我們這次改制為國營公司化之後，看起來客人容量跟它的收入是增加……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["林委員國成：所以這個部分，我還是要建議，臺鐵漲價的部分，真的，也不要事事都一定要事先預告老百姓，讓他們提心吊膽，沒有必要。但是我這裡要建議，也就是營運虧損補貼辦法，我們政府要補貼的這個部分，我要拜託部長儘快給他們，為什麼我要問這個？主要是我們虧損補貼的部分，最主要是牽涉到員工要計算要不要發年終獎金。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這跟員工權益相關。"],["林委員國成：這跟員工權利有關，所以我特別拜託部長要關心這個部分。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員國成：因為員工、勞工要的不多，只是他的安定跟他的確定，所以你如果不撥這些，會影響他們的計算，年終到底給不給這個問題。部長，這個事情……"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，這個部分我們跟主計總處已經有達成共識了，我們有一個確定的方案、折衷方案……"],["林委員國成：儘快啦！"],["陳部長世凱：所以這個我們會儘快。"],["林委員國成：部長，儘快啦！因為年終快到了，現在他們董事會要計算牽涉到虧損的彌補是不是可以cover過去，所以這就會影響他們的年終獎金發跟不發這個問題。"],["陳部長世凱：這個沒問題，我已經……"],["林委員國成：這個我要拜託部長一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員國成：另外，有關運安所，我要拜託你們，你們在研究這些當然對交通有幫助，可是有一點，對於老人家的習慣，也就是你們編列450萬開發高齡道安學習軟體，我必須要提醒林所長，老人家只要超過70歲，他怎麼會去運用這些？少之又少。依照年輕人20歲以下，當然用的是100%，未來他們會用，但是經過70歲，他使用率只有0.8%，所以你花了這些錢去做這些，適合嗎？這是第一個，我要提醒，你們編列預算是有編列這一筆。另外我還要跟林所長提醒，你們不要動不動就是路老師，我上次跟部長建議過，路老師這個政策，講快一點，他們做的成績不好，不能因為這些都是你們交通幫退下來去做路老師，你們就編預算給他，450萬並不是很多，但是效果一定會大打折扣。我要拜託林所長重新改變，預算我們支持，但是不要忘了這個效果不好，我必須要提醒一下。","所以我也拜託，雖然450萬並非很多，但是你要恰到好處嘛！你明明知道老人家根本不會上網，你去做這些幹什麼？你明明知道路老師這些都是要我們的委辦費，但是成效不彰。因為時間關係，我要拜託部長，雖然是450萬小問題，但是這個就浪費民脂民膏嘛！因為本來老人家不適用這種軟體，路老師政策成果不好，你們為什麼偏偏還要再編這個預算？"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，我們有蒐集國際的一些案例，不是只有軟體，事實上是搭配很重要的體驗活動，所以不一定是路老師。"],["林委員國成：好啦，那你編列預算要講清楚，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們跟委員說明一下。"],["林委員國成：你如果講不清楚，被我砍掉，你不要怪我啊！因為你自己講不清楚的啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們跟委員說明。"],["林所長繼國：是，我們來跟委員報告。"],["林委員國成：我已經產生錯覺，但是你們為什麼不講清楚？所以這個部分要拜託部長可能要監督。"],["陳部長世凱：好，再請委員多……"],["林委員國成：其實編列預算不要敷衍立法委員啦，其實立法委員大家都很認真啦，你寫出來怎麼樣，我們就會聯想什麼，如果你沒有寫的，我們也會把問題找出來，所以要拜託，預算就是該給的我們給，不該給的我們一定刪，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會跟委員說明。"],["林所長繼國：謝謝委員，我們……"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員。","接下來就有請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158144","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158144","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1390286f9759ad703041ac1bd29e6d5ff049c5ec402f88f0f71a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:47:20 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09:56:58","影片長度":"00:09:38","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算。\n五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算。\n【僅進行詢答；委員預算提案於12月25日中午12時前截止收件】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-16","start_time":"2024-12-16T09:47:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-16T09:56:58+08:00","duration":578,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.76034375,"end":6.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.907218750000002,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.450343750000002,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.68596875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.778468750000002,"end":32.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.80221875,"end":34.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.02971875,"end":38.860343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.282218750000006,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.82596875,"end":45.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.947843750000004,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.53846875,"end":50.689718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.330968750000004,"end":54.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.01409375,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":63.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.37971875,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.81346875,"end":71.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.60221875,"end":91.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.80034375000001,"end":72.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.30346875000001,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.12971875000001,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.22159375000001,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.49159375,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.52534375,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.78221875000001,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.58221875000001,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.59909375000001,"end":117.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.64971875,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.94846875,"end":126.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.06596875000001,"end":130.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.17096875000001,"end":130.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.58846875,"end":140.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.61659375000002,"end":145.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.30784375000002,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.76346875000002,"end":150.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.16784375,"end":150.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.94409375,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.78784375,"end":154.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.96034375000002,"end":167.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.74346875,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.48534375,"end":172.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.48909375000002,"end":175.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.10471875000002,"end":176.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.35346875000002,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.33596875,"end":182.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.44534375,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.45721875,"end":188.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.47346875000002,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.67971875,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.00846875000002,"end":198.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.37534375,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.57346875000002,"end":204.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.40409375000002,"end":206.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.62346875,"end":204.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.71596875,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.16096875000002,"end":222.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.10159375,"end":224.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.02534375000002,"end":225.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.05909375000002,"end":225.26159375},{"speaker":"SPE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bicyC."},{"start":340.822,"end":361.153,"text":"如果是高雄方案的話,這都是要進行的工作。相關的拆遷、都跟安置以及大高雄車站整體的開發除了地下道或地下街的開發之外,我們那邊有專市跟專路兩塊地。還有高雄車站前面有兩棟大樓已經建好,一棟是營業大樓,商業大樓,一棟是"},{"start":363.814,"end":372.479,"text":"單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":393.391,"end":417.289,"text":"其實答案已經呼之欲出了啦。第二個,你們必須社會大眾必須明確說明為什麼是這個?為什麼不是這個?你們必須要明確的說明。第三個,你們現在跟高雄市政府有對話過嗎?針對我所提的拆遷的問題、禿坑的問題以及大高雄車站相關的問題以及降低交通衝擊,你們有做過對話嗎?"},{"start":418.73,"end":445.169,"text":"報告委員在過去李孟嫣部長的時候有拜訪過陳其邁市長那我上任之後也有拜訪過陳其邁市長針對這件事情來向他做說明那除此之外我們其實鐵道局跟他們的各局處其實很密切在溝通無論是交通方面的規劃或者跟他們副市長在溝通未來整體都市規劃的部分包含整個都更的這個部分還有委員您很關心的地下通道"},{"start":445.549,"end":472.472,"text":"甚至是用天棚直接通到周圍區域周邊區域的計畫其實我們都很密切在跟他們做討論那等到我們定案之後比較細部的設計的部分我們會跟高雄市政府來配合那包含都市更新的部分我所聽到的高雄市政府其實可能會提出一個比較大的這個大都更的計畫在這個整整體的高雄火車站的周邊周邊做一個大都更的計畫那這個部分我們會密切跟他們配合其實這個"},{"start":473.493,"end":496.062,"text":"今天站在這裡其實感觸蠻深的整個鐵路地下化或綠岩道的設置以及相關鐵路立體化設施的拆除我都有參與甚至在2006年我在交通委員會當時我就有提案要求鐵路地下化施工的時候要預留軌道的空間讓高鐵可以直達我們的高雄車站"},{"start":497.267,"end":524.16,"text":"那可惜當時的政府沒有同意沒有預留這個軌道的空間所以今天又重新面臨這個相關的問題那其實在高雄車站方案在之前我跟王國才部長李孟彥部長還有陳思凱部長都有多次的討論我們對社會大眾對高雄市民屏東縣民都必須要明確的報告為什麼"},{"start":525.06,"end":548.896,"text":"是這個方案不管是之前我們提過的左雲方案、燕巢方案、高雄車站方案、小港機場方案為什麼後來是左雲方案然後現在後來又變成了左雲方案跟高雄車站方案要選擇一個這個都要有明確的數據未來的發展因為長久的公共利益跟對民眾的利益的"},{"start":549.656,"end":550.896,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":264,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時47分）謝謝召委，請一下陳世凱部長、楊正君局長。"],["主席：陳部長、楊局長。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好、局長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：高鐵延至屏東本來有4個方案，有左營方案、燕巢方案、高雄車站方案以及小港機場方案，最後是定案於左營方案，就是延伸到六塊厝，左營方案後來遇到問題，我現在要請教一下部長，左營方案或者是高雄車站方案，到底什麼時候會定案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們希望在年底可以定案。"],["李委員昆澤：年底已經快到了耶！"],["陳部長世凱：之前李孟諺部長的時候，他也是說要年底，那就照他年底的規劃，我們照這個計畫做。"],["李委員昆澤：好，那到底是左營方案還是高雄車站方案，現在有定案嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，還沒有最後定案……"],["李委員昆澤：那你在最後定案的時候，必須要向社會大眾清楚的說明，為什麼是左營方案、為什麼是高雄車站方案，或者是為什麼不是左營方案、為什麼不是高雄車站方案，你們必須要明確的說清楚。其實都有碰到問題，第一個，左營方案在當初定案的時候，首先碰到的就是它從左營站出來的時候就立刻碰到台塑石化區，它要從台塑石化區穿越過去，旁邊都是石化管線、都是儲氣槽，是我出面跟鐵道局、跟台塑相關的協調，才把這個路線改至跟高屏二快相結合，減少相關的工安危險，以及對仁武地區造成的交通以及徵收的困難。後來又出現了問題，我們轉換的長度也不夠，轉換長度至少要417公尺，當初的規劃只有380公尺，還有相關的道岔系統、轉換系統以及安全系統，這個都是有安全的疑慮，這是左營方案的問題。高雄車站也有很多問題，第一個，民眾拆遷的問題，來，請說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，民眾拆遷的問題我們當然會把它減到最低，但是目前為止，因為還沒有進入細部的設計，所以也沒有辦法很清楚說哪些一定會影響，但是……"],["李委員昆澤：好，哪些一定會影響，但是部長，我有幾個建議，第一個，如果是高雄車站方案，你們的拆遷如果要減少的話，必須是由高雄車站預定的四股道改成三股道，縮減它的範圍，三股道就夠了，因為它不是最終站，它是一個經過站而已，最重要的還是要到屏東，那四股道變成三股道的時候，徵收的範圍就會減少。第二，你們原本是要從中華路地下道，現在已經填平了，我的要求就是不要超過中華路地下道到民族陸橋這邊，讓它從2.8公里縮短為2.4公里，這樣也可以降低它拆遷的戶數。最主要有幾個原則，公有地優先……"],["陳部長世凱：好，當然。"],["李委員昆澤：你不要讓民眾受到拆遷之苦。第二，相關安置也是個問題，你要跟高雄市政府討論有沒有要都更、有沒有安置宅、有沒有社會宅以及相關的這些安置，還有土地是要議價購買為優先，這個原則能不能……來，局長，你講一下。"],["楊局長正君：好，謝謝委員指教，特別是剛剛委員指導的高雄車站股道數的減少，我想我們會朝這個方向來做檢討，這樣可以大幅減少相關的一些用地上面的取得。第二個，我們也會盡全力把我們的明挖路段限縮到中華三路跟民族陸橋的範圍以內，也就是說不影響這兩個……"],["李委員昆澤：民眾的權益最重要啦！拆遷戶的問題……"],["楊局長正君：是的，拆遷的部分我們會來協調高雄市政府共同來處理好安置跟都更這樣的……"],["李委員昆澤：第二個，我們把它限縮在中華路以及民族陸橋、民族路之間，就是要降低交通的衝擊，因為中華路跟民族路是高雄最重要的兩條交通動脈之一啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：所以這個必須要去做降低交通衝擊的處理，如果我們要到高雄車站，不是說高鐵到高雄車站而已，而是整個高雄車站必須以一個大車站的觀念來重新的布局，相關的地下道要通到九如路對面、建國路那邊，以及站東路、站西路，而且因為如果是地下通道的話，我們交通部鐵道局就可以自己做規劃，如果要像臺北這種地下街的話，是必須要跟市政府來對話、來做整合，如果是高雄方案的話，這都是接下來要進行的工作。相關的拆遷、都更、安置，以及大高雄車站整體的開發，除了地下道或地下街的開發之外，我們那邊有專四跟專五兩塊地，還有高雄車站前面有兩棟大樓已經建好，一棟是營業大樓、商業大樓，一棟是觀光旅館，其實後站也有兩棟的空地，這兩棟也必須要做整體的開發，然後兩邊有專四、專五，就是警察局跟行控中心那邊，還有在高雄火車站到民族路這邊相關的第四種商業區，這都必須跟高雄市政府來整體對話做一個整體的開發，你們有沒有做預先的規劃？"],["陳部長世凱：對……"],["李委員昆澤：所以說第一個，左營方案或是高雄方案，現在還沒有定案，其實答案已經呼之欲出了啦！第二個，你們必須跟社會大眾明確說明，為什麼是這個、為什麼不是這個，你們必須要明確的說明。第三個，你們現在跟高雄市政府有對話過嗎？針對我所提的拆遷的問題、都更的問題、大高雄車站相關的問題，以及降低交通衝擊，你們有做過對話嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在過去李孟諺部長的時候有拜訪過陳其邁市長，我上任之後也有拜訪過陳其邁市長，針對這件事情來向他做說明。除此之外，我們鐵道局跟他們的各局處其實很密切在溝通，無論是交通方面的規劃，或者跟他們副市長在溝通未來整體都市規劃的部分，包含整個都更的部分，還有委員您很關心的地下通道，甚至是用天棚直接通到周圍區域、周邊區域的計畫，其實我們都很密切在跟他們做討論。等到我們定案之後，比較細部的設計部分，我們會跟高雄市政府來配合，包含都市更新的部分，我所聽到的高雄市政府可能會提出一個比較大的大都更計畫，在整體高雄火車站的周邊做一個大都更的計畫，我們會密切跟他們配合。"],["李委員昆澤：其實今天站在這裡感觸蠻深的，整個鐵路地下化或綠園道的設置，以及相關鐵路立體化設施的拆除，我都有參與。甚至2006年我在交通委員會，當時我就有提案要求鐵路地下化施工的時候要預留軌道的空間，讓高鐵可以直達我們高雄車站，可惜當時的政府沒有同意，沒有預留軌道的空間，所以今天又重新面臨相關的問題。其實高雄車站方案，之前我跟王國材部長、李孟諺部長還有陳世凱部長都有多次的討論，我們對於社會大眾、對高雄市民、屏東縣民都必須要明確的報告為什麼是這個方案，不管是之前我們提過的左營方案、燕巢方案、高雄車站方案、小港機場方案，為什麼後來是左營方案？後來又變成了左營方案跟高雄車站方案要選擇一個，這個都要有明確的數據，就未來的發展，因為長久的公共利益跟對民眾利益的衝突，以及對地方發展不管是短期面臨的衝擊、黑暗期以及長期的公共利益，你們必須都要明確的說明啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們會做詳細的說明。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，這是你重要的工作；楊局長，你也必須要明確的來掌握，而且要跟高雄市政府、屏東縣政府和當地的居民都要明確的說明，我們來看你們怎麼做。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，我們來努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李委員。","接下來有請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},{"id":"158143","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158143","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1f7a2f9224b02dcfdc6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辛苦了辛苦了 那個上次逃動部這個霸凌事件也是我排一個檢討會報告 然後就在這裡從早上一直砲轟到下午 那到中午的時候行政院那邊就回復了"},{"start":50.71,"end":63.637,"text":"下午四點半,行政院長召開記者會。我們的何部長就辭職了。我覺得很惋惜。務務部這一次的"},{"start":65.65,"end":85.92,"text":"這個事件的檢討我這裡要跟部長講一下就是早上我還收到你們衛務部員工的陳情救救我們衛務部的員工他說這一次的這個檢討報告是提高陳情到次長"},{"start":87.16,"end":108.069,"text":"所以他們還好,但是一般都是主秘在主持。所以現在這個主秘一定先到減息到sustention開,讓他沒做。他如果再回去當主秘,那這些報告全部他都看到了嗎?那這些人不是完蛋了嗎?"},{"start":109.878,"end":128.011,"text":"好,謝謝召委的隨行。我想我們在一開始調查的過程當中都,我想那個理事長應該很清楚,指導這個整個就是說他負責召集嘛,他應該很清楚,只要是當我們在調查的時候所有的相關人都請假。"},{"start":128.792,"end":149.913,"text":"我就是不行不不影響到那個整個調查所以相關的人不會去看到他在這個報告裡面所以這個部分請大家放心絕對我們非常的非常的非常的保護到這個我們所訪談的所有的同仁而且絕對"},{"start":151.394,"end":161.404,"text":"做最最嚴密的一個保護所以這個這個案子將來即使誰呢當主秘他可以往前去review去拿出來去拿出來看會不會這樣"},{"start":166.706,"end":185.685,"text":"按照目前的規定調查報告不僅是密件而且是限約關係人都是不能看所以要有職權才能看的那結束就封起來了是不是這樣"},{"start":188.087,"end":195.856,"text":"我是覺得要勿妄勿縱啦,盲盲就這個我們那個年代當醫生部長你也看不到了,我們離開房,如果這樣沒辦法對主治醫師腳就要踹來了"},{"start":205.946,"end":206.106,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":222.992,"end":249.6,"text":"我阿兔就在顧記者馬街宴晚上亂七八糟的刀倉槍倉的一堆也是這樣拗過來但是現在時代不一樣啦他們有年輕人的想法不一樣現在如果跟我的刀我把他用拔劍給他打一下我就死了好不好我才會有個啊所以不一樣所以現在的主管或許以前是也曾經被霸凌過"},{"start":250.981,"end":259.323,"text":"現在不要變成你是受害者將來變成加害者可能有什麼心態我不知道啦 部長你要看什麼"},{"start":261.673,"end":278.065,"text":"我想...我以前也被丟過病歷,是不敢用麥克彈啦。你們外科系統的科研比較好,我們內科系統基本上是丟病歷啦。但是我從來沒有丟過年輕醫師的病歷。"},{"start":284.312,"end":298.647,"text":"因為時代不一樣整個環境不一樣以及大家玩笑的方式不一樣陳昭蘇委員對你的這篇報告非常的不滿意我想退回去"},{"start":299.528,"end":315.641,"text":"有點對你們難堪但是我想再回去好好的再再再回顧再review一下好不好我就不用那麼不好聽的字眼那這裡面有一些我看表現也不錯的啊像你們國衛組這個張主任每次委員要愛衣服給他叫他都會來要穿什麼東西都會穿這樣"},{"start":321.271,"end":321.471,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":341.704,"end":366.053,"text":"我們台灣的新生兒死亡率是比日本高將近一倍嘛然後呢我們國會院裡面有一個兒童健康什麼什麼什麼委員會啊你那委員會在幹嘛的是在做政策制定還是有到基層的practice到醫院這個層級因為五家兒童醫院的"},{"start":367.631,"end":378.661,"text":"院長也罷他們來找我說他們希望成立可以為我們這邊成立一個兒童醫學健康研究中心然後他們來"},{"start":381.588,"end":398.716,"text":"整個台灣的資料做研究新的治療方法新的癌症治療方法等等就依託在其中的一家醫院然後全國的資料都在這邊我第一句話就問說那你跟國會院這個機構有沒有疊床駕駛部長你有看過嗎"},{"start":408.157,"end":429.502,"text":"我想國會院是我們國家重要的健康智庫那它據我了解在過去成立相關的一個組織的時候其實在推動很多兒童的一個重要的議題的論壇那這個也都做得在政策上相關的好在醫院裡面當然就是"},{"start":430.322,"end":433.385,"text":"我現在是說國會院這個單位是不是在做政策制定而已啊?政策的原意跟制定"},{"start":453.534,"end":463.731,"text":"謝謝委員。我們事實上是從102年開始,因為當初很多立委鼓勵我們成立這個所謂的國家的兒童醫學研究中心。"},{"start":465.225,"end":487.335,"text":"這幾年事實上是用依法基金的這個經費雖然每年經費都在遞減但事實上我們維持每年都在遞減這幾年因為醫治師強力推動這個所謂的優化兒童醫療照護那個裡面就有很多的策略來結合不同的醫學中心、兒童醫院跟這個幼童的這個專責的這個醫師那他們現在怎麼會有這個要求呢?"},{"start":493.106,"end":521.685,"text":"會想說在臺大兒童醫院或者是哪裡放這個研究的中心?我想那個醫事室是臺大醫院奧科出身的他最了解這邊的話我補充一下因為這是不同層級的研究政策研究的部分其實我們是透過國會院然後推動兒童優化兒童醫療網計畫得到的data其實沒有個資的情形現在其實是由國會院來提供可是每個醫院對於每個disease"},{"start":522.165,"end":538.335,"text":"其實他都希望有更深度的研究知道從預防端開始怎麼做所以針對每一個不同的面向的地方的話我只能說以國衛院而言他是從公共衛生的角度從疾病預防治療的角度那是每個醫院希望能夠做的事"},{"start":539.664,"end":544.427,"text":"我的想法就很單純,就是,孩子越生越少,變動關一年,今年是2023年過星期的八千五百多人生小孩生到四千兩百,生不到一半啦"},{"start":554.974,"end":555.114,"text":"這是好事啦!"},{"start":582.276,"end":602.572,"text":"那我請部長你責成我們國會議事室．跟這些兒童醫院研究一下．看到底他們是要愛什麼．他們是要如何配合．要不然他們重複開．我們就沒意思了．這樣好不好好沒問題這個非常重要．而且資源一定要放在．各自能夠發揮共同來聯繫一個我們臺灣最好的．"},{"start":605.894,"end":633.413,"text":"兒童研究及一個品質的體育對啦 這個很重要啦每一個都要好好的栽培每一個都是很重要來 那院長你請回那再來就是我們麻醉出問題啦診所出問題啦那醫生到底有沒有受訓那我瞭解起來不真的假的我等一下請市長回答齁他說那個診所做雷射然後打propofol"},{"start":634.301,"end":653.823,"text":"那這個牛奶針,我前幾天做大腸經胃鏡,我也煮那個,我也煮泡泡泡,整個我是便宜做,所以很擔心,那真的會呼吸會變壞,血壓會下降,所以那種針很好用,但是會出問題的啊。"},{"start":655.305,"end":670.984,"text":"我看你們的規範八項裡面沒有在石中良當市長的時候制定的嘛那八項什麼銷鼓啦什麼的要麻醉在場那這個我的了解是那個執行醫師自己打打完自己再做然後這裡就輸於照顧"},{"start":673.905,"end":695.887,"text":"那個在醫院保證救的回來,那在診所,那去有KLG這個是很糟糕的事情這個診所裡面醫美診所裡面醫事室現在準備要怎麼做這樣是沒有辦法接受的台灣有800家醫美診所真的有規範的才41家,是不是這樣"},{"start":697.637,"end":697.677,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":713.325,"end":739.602,"text":"合法而且品質優良的診所的部分的話我們其實是建議民眾第一個其實就優選醫政會通過認證的第二件事情是在執行推動的過程當中如果是說麻醉這件事情只能夠由麻醉科醫師做的話其實就會有人手不足的問題可是實際上面很多的情況下面都會運用到麻醉所以怎麼提升這個我們講的安全的部分的話才會有是說"},{"start":740.262,"end":740.462,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":755.456,"end":779.146,"text":"我不曉得麻醉專科醫師跟麻醉專科婦理師他們的前線跟他們的分際是在哪裡我搞不清楚像這種應該你要麻醉你就在醫院坐就好了為什麼醫師到外面到處兼差這樣這樣一定會到最後一定是無人嘛無人就是這樣他先自己補自己煮自己煮自己弄都要出事了"},{"start":783.052,"end":811.343,"text":"這是要管理的,不然大家不信心去啊軍售這筆也沒搞,什麼都沒幫你做什麼,每天都沒搞我看連插管都不要插管所以這個很危險啦口腔師也是一樣,我要問你的你跟醫師是怎麼配合牙科醫師現在是在聯合診所就可以實習嗎還是PGY才在聯合診所"},{"start":816.411,"end":836.758,"text":"牙科醫師的實習一定是教學醫院。PGY的話的確有部分是在診所。因為牙醫師本身一定要在急診受診。是,董事長你是急診的齁。一定要在急診受診過。一定要在麻酔科受診過。這樣他才有基本的救人的基本能力。"},{"start":838.139,"end":856.232,"text":"我已經接過好多牙醫師麻藥一打因為麻藥裏面有馬肩、大腦肩裏面有加一些保釋敏加一些epinephrine加一比一千的那煮了人家就VTR人家就心力不振、心思戰鬥啊上來救的比較久、救的比較久就沒了所以麻醉那個牙科醫師會不會插管我看10個、9個不會插啦"},{"start":864.252,"end":883.734,"text":"所以這個都是要review的這個要加強他們訓練的還有實習如果在在牙科診所還得了這個是一個漏洞啊所以實習沒有只有PGY有對只有PGY有PGY應該也要在教學院在聯合診所上次就出事了高雄不是出事了嗎所以這個"},{"start":886.482,"end":889.466,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想不管是醫療院所的品質安全"},{"start":902.103,"end":918.196,"text":"可以說是從朝委員您過去在擔任醫師公會理事長那個時候就一直呼籲大家一直在開這個會所以我們非常的重視那該如果在麻醉這個部分會比較需要再精進我們會找相關的醫學會"},{"start":919.597,"end":937.299,"text":"跟相關的專科醫學會、牙醫團體我們共同來研議看怎麼樣讓民眾真的到醫療院所是很安心而且是很安全的所以我們一定要努力追求所以我再回過頭來行政院說要讓"},{"start":938.746,"end":940.826,"text":"雖然是匿名但是只要舉出他的"},{"start":966.391,"end":966.971,"text":"被檢舉者要勿忘勿重"},{"start":990.888,"end":991.349,"text":"謝謝蘇委員、謝謝柯部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":956,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時43分）謝謝主席，我請部長、國衛院院長、醫事司司長及口腔司司長。"],["主席：好，有請邱部長、國衛院院長、醫事司司長及口腔司司長。"],["邱部長泰源：召委早。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，辛苦了。上次勞動部的霸凌事件，也是我排一個檢討會報告，然後就在這裡，從早上一直炮轟到下午，到中午的時候，行政院那邊就回復了，然後下午四點半行政院長就召開記者會，然後我們的何部長就辭職了，我覺得很惋惜啦。","衛福部這一次針對這個事件的檢討，我這裡要跟部長講一下，早上我還收到你們衛福部員工的陳情，他說請救救我們衛福部的員工，他說這一次的檢討報告是提高層級到次長，所以他們還好，但一般都是主秘在主持，所以現在主秘先暫時把他sustaination起來，讓他沒做了，將來他如果再回去當主秘，這些報告他不就全部都看到了？這些人不是完蛋了嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝召委的垂詢，我們從一開始調查的過程當中，我想呂次長應該很清楚，他負責召集，他應該很清楚，當我們在調查的時候，所有的相關人都請假，就是不影響整個調查，相關的人不會看到這個報告，所以這個部分請大家放心，我們絕對是非常保護訪談的所有同仁，而且絕對做最嚴密的保護。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這個案子將來即使誰來當主秘，他可以往前review，去拿出來看，會不會這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我請人事處長說明。"],["李處長玉惠：根據目前的規定，調查報告不僅是密件，而且是限閱，關係人都不能看。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以要有職權才能看，結束就封起來了，是不是這樣？OK。我覺得要勿枉勿縱，我們那個年代當醫生……部長你也差不多啦，我們在開刀房，如果稍微處理不好，跟刀的主治醫師腳就踢過來了，他穿木屐耶，踢了都會瘀青，那個時候實在覺得很委屈，但是那個年代就是這樣，三天值一次班，白天上班跟刀，晚上還要看急診，那時根本沒有急診專科醫師，我R2就在顧急診了，在馬偕醫院，晚上亂七八糟的，刀傷、槍傷的一堆……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我也是這樣熬過來，但是現在時代不一樣，他們年輕人的想法不一樣，現在如果跟我的刀，我用木屐踢他一下，我就死定了，差不多就被人家告了，現在不一樣了，所以現在的主管或許以前也被霸凌過，曾經是受害者，將來不要變成加害者，他們可能有一點這種心態，我不知道啦，部長你的看法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想……"],["蘇委員清泉：你也被別人欺負過？"],["邱部長泰源：我以前也被丟過病歷，是不到被用木屐踢啦，你們外科系統的比較可能會這樣，我們內科系統基本上是丟病歷，但是我從來沒有丟過年輕醫師的病歷。因為我們的時代不一樣，整個環境不一樣，以及大家管教的方式也不一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：陳昭姿委員對你的這份報告非常的不滿意，我想若要把它退回去，對你們有點難堪，但是你們再回去好好的回顧、review一下，好不好？我就不用講那麼不好聽的字眼，我看這裡面也有一些表現不錯的，像你們國會組的張主任，每次我們委員要什麼，一叫他，他都馬上來啊，要準備什麼東西都馬上準備，這樣他也被檢舉霸凌，所以有的地方就是要勿枉勿縱，我還是要講這句話「勿枉勿縱」，一定要查清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定秉公處理，勿枉勿縱。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，這個是很重要的。因為我的時間不多，我要接續問國衛院，我們臺灣新生兒的死亡率比日本高將近一倍，國衛院裡面有一個兒童健康什麼委員會的，那個委員會在幹嘛的？是在做政策制定，還是有到基層醫院這個層級practice？因為5家兒童醫院的院長來找我，他們希望衛福部這邊成立一個兒童醫學健康研究中心，然後他們在collection整個臺灣的data，研究新的治療方法、新的癌症治療方法等等，就依託在其中的一家醫院，然後全國的data都在這邊。我第一句話就問：那你跟國衛院這個機構有沒有疊床架屋？部長，你的看法是怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：國衛院是我們國家重要的健康智庫，據我了解，過去在成立相關組織的時候，其實推動了很多兒童的重要議題及論壇，在政策上也做得相當好……"],["蘇委員清泉：衛福部……"],["邱部長泰源：在醫院裡面，尤其是醫學中心，當然希望教研、臨床上能夠一致，可能它的性質是不太一樣的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我現在是說國衛院這個單位是不是在做政策制定而已？"],["邱部長泰源：政策的研議跟制定。"],["蘇委員清泉：是不是這樣？"],["司徒院長惠康：謝謝委員，事實上我們從102年開始，因為當初有很多立委鼓勵我們成立這個國家的兒童醫學研究中心，這幾年是用醫發基金的經費，雖然每一年經費都在遞減，但我們維持……"],["蘇委員清泉：每一年都在遞減？"],["司徒院長惠康：是，這幾年因為醫事司強力推動優化兒童醫療照護，裡面有很多的策略，結合不同的醫學中心、兒童醫院跟幼童的專責醫師，我們有……"],["蘇委員清泉：他們現在怎麼會有這個要求呢？會想在臺大兒童醫院或者哪裡放這個研究中心？"],["邱部長泰源：我想醫事司是臺大醫院兒科出身的，他最了解。"],["劉司長越萍：這邊我補充一下，因為這是不同層級的研究，政策研究的部分是透過國衛院，而推動優化兒童醫療網計畫得到的data，在沒有個資的情形下，其實是由國衛院來提供，可是每個醫院對於每個disease都希望有更深度的研究，知道從預防端開始怎麼做，針對每一個不同的面向，我只能說，以國衛院而言，他們是從公共衛生的角度，而從疾病預防治療的角度，那是每個醫院希望能夠做的事，以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：我的想法很單純，孩子越生越少，屏東縣去（2023）年死亡的有八千五百多人，出生的小孩不到4,200個，不到死亡人數的一半，再這樣下去就全部死光光了；所以每一個孩子都很重要，每一個孩子都是我們的寶貝，對每一個孩子都要花很多錢在他們身上。現在他們要求在小孩3歲之前做一個全身的體檢，讓他們好好做一下，看是花一萬塊還是多少，不管是要用健保的錢還是用公務預算，3歲到6歲都可以做一下，我說：這很好啊，一些心律不整的問題都把它抓出來，這是好事啦！我請部長責成國衛院和醫事司跟這些兒童醫院研究一下，看他們到底是要什麼、要怎麼配合，錢不要重複花，重複花就沒意思了，這樣好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，這個非常重要。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，這很重要。"],["邱部長泰源：而且資源各自一定要能夠發揮，共同凝聚臺灣最好的兒童研究跟品質的提倡。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦，這個很重要，每一個都要好好的栽培，每一個都很重要。好，院長你請回。","再來就是麻醉出問題了，診所出問題了，醫生到底有沒有受訓？是真的還是假的，我等一下請司長回答，就我了解，他們說診所做雷射，然後打Propofol牛奶針，我前幾天做大腸鏡、胃鏡，我也注射那個耶，我也注射做Propofol……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：但我是在醫院做的，所以很安心，那個真的會讓呼吸變差、血壓也下降，所以那種針很好用，但是會出問題的啊，我看你們的8項規範裡面沒有……在石崇良當司長的時候制定的嘛，那8項像是削骨什麼的都要麻醉師在場。就我的了解，那個執行醫師自己打，打完再自己來做，然後就疏於照顧，如果在醫院保證救得回來，在診所就這樣讓他死了，這是很糟糕的事情，醫美診所裡面……你們醫事司現在準備要怎麼做？這樣是沒有辦法接受的啊！臺灣有800家醫美診所，真的有規範的才41家，是不是這樣？"],["劉司長越萍：不是真的有規範，是所有要執行我們特管辦法裡面的項目，都必須經過衛生局的審核，然後第三方的認證、經由醫策會的認證，那才是委員在講的，所以在選擇合法且品質優良診所的部分，我們是建議民眾，第一個，優選通過醫策會認證的。","第二件事情，在執行推動的過程當中，如果麻醉這件事情只能夠由麻醉科醫師做的話，其實就會有人手不足的問題，可是實際上面很多的情況都會應用到麻醉，所以怎麼提升安全的部分，我們才會要求中重度麻醉、重度麻醉的其實是要有受過訓練的，所以在這個地方我們會強化，特別是這次出問題的地方是在Propofol，所以怎麼樣讓大家可以安全使用這部分，我們會再來加強。"],["蘇委員清泉：我不曉得麻醉專科醫師跟麻醉專科護理師他們的權限跟他們的分際是在哪裡，我搞不清楚，像這種的狀況，若是要麻醉，在醫院做就好了，為什麼要這樣做呢？然後醫師到外面到處兼差，到最後一定是沒人嘛！然後醫生就自己弄、自己注射，做到都出事了，所以這要管理啦！不然這樣大家都沒信心了。畢竟診所設備不夠，什麼都沒有，monitor也沒有，什麼設備都不夠，我看可能連插管都不會，所以這個很危險。","口腔司也是一樣，我要問你的是，你跟醫師是怎麼配合的？牙科醫師現在是在聯合診所就可以實習嗎？還是PGY才在聯合診所？"],["邱部長泰源：我請張司長說明。"],["張司長雍敏：牙科醫師的實習一定是教學醫院；PGY的話，的確有部分是在診所。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為牙醫師本身一定要在急診受過訓，一定要在麻醉科受過訓，這樣他才有基本的救人能力，我已經接過好多牙醫師的案子，麻藥一打，因為麻藥裡面有Procaine、Novocaine，裡面加一些Bosmin、加一些Pinephrine、加1比1000的，那個打下去，病人就VT了，病人就心律不整、就心室顫抖了，送來有時救得起來，有時救不起來人就沒了，所以牙科醫師會不會插管呢？我看10個有9個不會插，所以這個都要review的、都要加強他們訓練的，如果實習是在牙科診所，那還得了，這個是一個漏洞啊！所以實習沒有，只有PGY有？"],["張司長雍敏：對，只有PGY有。"],["蘇委員清泉：PGY應該也要在教學醫院，若在聯合診所的話，上次就出事了，高雄不是出事了嗎？所以口腔司跟醫事司要好好的配合，好不好？"],["張司長雍敏：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個很重要啦！不然這就太可怕了。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，我想不管是醫療院所的品質安全，可以說是從召委過去擔任醫師公會理事長那個時候就一直呼籲大家，也一直召開相關的會議，所以我們非常的重視，如果在麻醉這個部分比較需要再精進，我們會找相關的醫學會、相關的專科醫學會、牙醫團體，共同來研議看看怎麼樣讓民眾真的到醫療院所是很安心的，而且是很安全的，這是我們一定要努力追求的。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後，我再回過頭來談，行政院說霸凌平臺是要上去登錄的，上次媒體訪問我時提到，上面說要登錄你的單位、你的姓名、你的身分證字號，然後才能登錄，要檢舉的人看到這樣都怕得要命啊！所以我要求不能這樣子做，挖洞給自己跳，誰敢啊！所以衛福部有這樣做嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個部分行政院有特別說明，雖然是匿名，但是只要有舉出具名的人、事件，還是要審慎來處理，所以這次我們衛福部只要是有這樣的情況，雖然他是匿名，也都會列入調查的範圍裡面，所以不一定需要有這樣的條件，而且我們當然也是希望能夠審慎，以免大家都……"],["蘇委員清泉：被檢舉者要勿枉勿縱；檢舉的人我們要保護，就是這麼簡單的道理。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員，謝謝部長。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：接續我們請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":481.893,"end":482.534,"text":"蘇貞茵、林玉琴、林玉琴、林玉琴"},{"start":500.146,"end":500.486,"text":"請問一下這針統定義是什麼?"},{"start":518.38,"end":529.918,"text":"呃...看起來的確像針頭所以應該...應該是...呃...不應該...沒有監測核准其實都是不能使用"},{"start":530.706,"end":559.952,"text":"所以這種針頭很鋒利嘛若不是刺入人體的話有可能會導致蜂窩性組織炎那甚至空氣針的 空氣栓塞等致命的狀況所以我們就去搜尋各類關鍵字出現了不同的空氣針、精油針、工業用針、寵物針出現各種不同的針頭所以想問衛福部這到底是不是針頭是合法的醫材嗎需不需要下架"},{"start":561.669,"end":587.91,"text":"請署長回答一下報告委員因為這些他的徵筒的字眼因為他們沒有申請依裁申請所以我們不認為他是依裁如果這樣子我們會回去請我們的那個衣裝組進行這個網路的搜尋然後希望他們能下架因為他們沒有以依裁的方式來申請所以我們上面是沒有記錄的是可是我們就是去問了你們的衣裝組"},{"start":589.111,"end":589.371,"text":"議員：林月琴"},{"start":604.598,"end":631.496,"text":"說你答案是不太一樣的但這一玩具真的就是真正的真桶一樣事實上是有危險性的所以想問反共部長業務單位這樣回答如果藥品跟糖漿業者只要說明上是說糖果宣稱是糖果那衛福部就不會做藥品來管理嗎我們大概會以食品來管理那為什麼會這個會說宣稱玩具就不是以醫材來做管理"},{"start":632.833,"end":659.293,"text":"報告委員我們這個因為他在那個醫財管理辦法上面他必須要在他宣稱他是醫財的時候他會申請醫財的認可那時候我們才會進行可是這針筒有沒有危險性是報告委員是有對所以針對空氣針的販售問題請衛福部立即會同的關務署跟國貿署跟速發部去清查我們的網"},{"start":660.213,"end":683.422,"text":"議員．"},{"start":684.261,"end":692.278,"text":"有傷害到人體的質疑,我想這都是要處理的。這都是要嚴格來處理的。再麻煩我們的衛福部,謝謝。謝謝委員,謝謝。謝謝月琴委員,謝謝部長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":913,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時31分）主席，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。一直以來我在民間就很關心有關兒童安全實施方案，所以想問部長並與部長討論。請問兒少安全實施方案過去多久修正一次？"],["邱部長泰源：請周代理署長回答。"],["周代理署長道君：報告委員，前一次修正應該是在106年時，至於最近一次是在113年。"],["林委員月琴：我是問多久要修正一次？按照你們的進度。"],["周代理署長道君：這部分其實並沒有特別規定，就像一般的行政計畫或什麼的，並沒有一定的修正期程。"],["林委員月琴：部長，現在少子女化越來越嚴重，所以兒少議題不應該被邊緣化！過去我一而再、再而三呼籲，請邱部長要好好加把勁去處理這問題。107年事故協調會提到，屆期應該滾動修正指標，上一次版本是105年提出，而依照調查事故傷害紀錄顯示，你們要滾動式檢討，且每三年要做滾動修正。所以107年就講了每三年一次，可是很遺憾的是，現在113年了，我只看到未完成的答案，沒有辦法看到……部長，你有掌握進度嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：一直有在修正……"],["林委員月琴：剛剛代理署長說你們沒有，可是會議紀錄就寫，每三年要做滾動式修正！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員指教，我們馬上來了解現在的進度，趕快依照現在的狀況……"],["林委員月琴：監察院111年、113年都提醒，因為他們有注意到這問題，所以在這兩年要求衛福部要儘速做滾動檢討，並提到，在併入事故傷害協調會後的作法跟頻率，缺少目前兒少權法法定的協調、研究、審議、諮詢、督導與考核的功能，以致難以有效降低兒少事故。部長，衛福部難道都不知道嗎？對這件事情視而不見嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們非常重視兒少安全，在屢次質詢當中我們也謝謝委員的指教，我們一直都在改善這部分。"],["林委員月琴：兒少安全實施方案是在96年所訂定的，過去在社會司時，內政部每一年都有在檢討，結果後來合併到事故傷害協調防制協調會之後，反而就停擺了，從105年停擺到現在，所以也希望部長針對這一塊能夠儘速去了解。再來要問部長的是，你知不知道我們方案指標的研訂標準跟原則是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我想兒少安全很重要的，最常發生的就是意外事故，所以這個部分最重要應該是聚焦在兒少的意外事故，我想我們過去也參加過很多兒童健康學會相關會議參與，其實都……"],["林委員月琴：是，我相信你來自醫療界，應該知道這個東西很重要。"],["邱部長泰源：其實都以這個為主要的一個，認為這是最重要要去處理的問題。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以你的原則就在這邊，而且當時他們就有提醒應該聚焦在兒少意外事故，而且應該要排除我們各部會已經有做的事情，不是把各部會有做的事情又繼續放進來，因為要避免疊床架屋，還有減少過程指標，應該著重在成果指標，所以目標值應該要兼顧前瞻性跟務實可行，可是我們可以看到，根據你們的草案，之前就講過了啦，可是為什麼最後、現在送出來的草案版本，那個考核目標的設定真的是毫無誠意，為什麼這麼講呢？剛剛部長講說你很重視，可是為什麼這次113年送出來的草案版本，我仔細看，首先，有的目標居然已經達成了，就像提升我們偏鄉地區民眾就醫、就學便利性的盤點，偏鄉地區的民眾交通需求，以每年增加交通運輸的涵蓋率1%為目標，這是你們寫出來的──112年的目標為91%，113年的目標為92%，可是現在就已經94%了，我不知道那明年要訂什麼呢？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員指教，委員的寶貴意見，我想我們這是一個草案，所以我想我們都可以來更精進。"],["林委員月琴：所以可不可以督促各部會在配合你這個案子的時，可以講出一個更具體的，像怎麼會減少兒少無照駕駛的再犯率，設定目標為每年下降0.5%，甚至溺水的部分要下降0.2人，我不知道這是怎麼算出來的。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，目前所設定的指標，總的來說，就是根據以往大概下降的趨勢，我們希望能夠有更精進去做一定目標的設定，目前整個案子的進度是報到行政院之後，行政院有要求我們就裡面一部分的事項再做一些檢視，我們都會相關檢討完之後，再送到行政院去。委員所提示有關指標的部分，我們也會再做一些檢視，如果有需要的話，我們也會跟相關部會再做一些協調。"],["林委員月琴：事實上，那個目標的訂定要能夠具體，而且事實上是要有一個能夠讓我們有更往前，而不是訂一個下降0.5%，甚至下降0.2人，這個不知道是不是少子化的作用，因為我們的孩子越生越少，下降0.2人的話，坦白講也很容易達到啊，所以可不可以訂出一個具體可操作，甚至有前瞻性的，而不是沒有前瞻性的目標，請你們要去處理。所以請衛福部在3個月內重新檢視，研商跟修訂兒少實施方案，並儘速公布。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["林委員月琴：還有檢討「每半年」召開會議的作法，這部分過去我們就一直在提醒，因為法裡面沒有要求，沒有要求說你們要多久開一次，可是我們希望能夠每三個月去檢討，可是你們當時一直還是很堅持，說要每半年才來召開這樣的事故傷害協調會議討論的作法，我覺得這要思考，為什麼這麼講？因為今天兒少死亡1到14歲是第一名，事故傷害是第一名，應該要去重視。少子化不是只有去催生，還要拒絕死亡，這件事情要做到，我覺得麻煩部長要把這件事情放在心上，如果你一直在做催生，可是沒有拒絕死亡的話，依然，我們的孩子一樣，即便我們的生贏過日、韓，可是如果沒有拒絕死亡的話，我們的死亡數事實上是超過日、韓的。","再來就是空氣針這件事情，我想部長應該……我不知道有沒有收到這樣的一個訊息，因為最近有一款玩具，造成很多人在Threads或者是社群上，現在都開始引起恐慌，為什麼？因為這事實上是一個玩具，竟然還有一個針頭、一個矽膠娃娃，透過這個空氣針去打，就可以讓這個娃娃膨脹起來，之後為了抽那個泡泡，大家就覺得很紓壓。可是我們辦公室收到這樣子的問題之後，我們也看到經濟部趕快要求我們的電商平臺下架，不得販售，這個很好，我們辦公室搜尋針筒的部分，確實沒有找到相關的產品，所以想問部長，畫面中的空氣針是不是就是針筒？也請問一下這針筒的定義是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：看起來的確像針筒。"],["林委員月琴：是，看起來像針筒嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：所以應該是不允許的，沒有經過核准其實都是不能使用的。"],["林委員月琴：這種針頭很鋒利，如果不慎針刺入人體的話，有可能會導致蜂窩性組織炎，甚至出現空氣栓塞等致命的狀況，所以我們就去搜尋各類關鍵字，出現了不同的空氣針、精油針、工業用針、寵物針，出現各種不同的針筒，所以我想問衛福部，這到底是不是針筒？是合法的醫材嗎？需不需要下架？"],["邱部長泰源：我請署長回答一下。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，這些針筒的字眼，因為他們沒有申請醫材申請，所以我們不認為它是醫材。這樣子，我們會回去請我們的醫裝組進行網路的搜尋，然後希望他們能下架，因為他們沒有以醫材的方式來申請，所以我們上面是沒有紀錄的。"],["林委員月琴：是，可是我們就是去問了你們的醫裝組空氣針的問題，醫裝組回復本辦公室，如果這個產品原廠說明書宣稱是玩具的話，就不以醫療器材來管理，所以我不知道，這跟剛才署長的答案是不太一樣的，但這些玩具針就是真正的針筒，事實上一樣是有危險性的，所以想問部長，業務單位這樣回答，如果藥品跟糖漿業者只要在說明上是說糖果，宣稱是糖果，那衛福部就不會作為藥品來管理嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：我們大概會以食品來管理。"],["林委員月琴：那為什麼這個只要宣稱是玩具，就不以醫材來做管理？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，因為它在醫材管理辦法上面，必須要在它宣稱它是醫材的時候，才會申請醫材的認可，那時候我們才會進行……"],["林委員月琴：可是這個針筒有沒有危險性？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，是有的。"],["林委員月琴：所以針對於空氣針的販售問題，請衛福部立即會同關務署、國貿署及數發部，去清查我們的網購跟相關電商平臺，看看是不是還有這些東西，因為這可能事實上是醫材，或者是具有攻擊性的商品，可能要加以注意，如果拿來刺到人體的話。如果持續販售，這些就應該要下架，所以麻煩食藥署要積極去進行。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分，雖然它沒有用醫材來報備，但是如果它有傷害到人體的質疑時，我想這都是要處理的，這都是要嚴格來處理的。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩我們的衛福部，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員昭姿代）：謝謝月琴委員，謝謝部長。","下一位質詢的委員是蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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這個你要報查報告還是要出來你現在是不是可以立刻請業務單位把調查報告上網做得到嗎勞動部都做到了你做不到嗎我現在給你時間馬上交代我要上網去看報告可以嗎請調查小組的召集人李次長"},{"start":151.016,"end":170.146,"text":"為什麼我要報告就好 我不要你怎麼做的 我要調查報告也非常感謝委員的這個關心 那我跟委員做一個簡單報告 因為其實我們這個部分確實有96位同仁他受到訪談 那麼在訪談的過程裡面這些有講到就不用了 金融導遊才不用嘛還是希望不具名 因為這裡面會簽到就是說不具名沒問題啊 不具名沒問題啊"},{"start":173.228,"end":180.73,"text":"可是這裡面因為有一些同仁他們還是希望就是說可能可能有一些那你就是還沒有做好嘛那個報告還不確實嘛我們其實都已經做好那麼這裡面我們還是要考量同仁他們的這個隱私還有你可以把identity蓋好那其實我們也透過這次的這一個詳細的審查"},{"start":191.833,"end":197.216,"text":"您在糊弄我啦!您在糊弄我!你要重新講一次故事!好!這不是我要的答案!市長請回!市長請回!後續行政校給調!我等一下執行完回去我就要看啊!我要看調查報告啊!你乾脆就處理啊!勞動部做得到你做不到啊!"},{"start":216.085,"end":216.846,"text":"主席是李正德次長"},{"start":239.693,"end":253.367,"text":"不是啊,有衛福部官員跟我說啊因為劉益娟主秘是防護小組的主席本次是因為迴避啊暫時由次長代替但是劉益娟現在還是主秘啊那之後她是不是可以看調閱報告她可不可以知道是約談了哪些人這些被約談的講了什麼話部長請告訴我她可不可以看得到"},{"start":259.571,"end":274.744,"text":"我想我們這次的調查報告是人事處長就能不能看得到這些內容告訴我就好這些調查報告目前都是密件目前?但是他回到他還在組密啊?不會不會因為安全防護小組現在的召集人自從自從組密我們原來的組密是跟個召集人"},{"start":285.794,"end":304.821,"text":"議員．"},{"start":305.081,"end":310.047,"text":"您覺得在這種氛圍之下,衛福部有辦法做出符合事實的調查嗎?只要劉玉娟一天在主命的位置上,就沒有人敢說真話?今天劉玉娟有來嗎?沒有啊,因為你把她免監的那個社保司啊"},{"start":325.578,"end":335.779,"text":"他是完成順利的升官啊他免監社保司啊他除掉的工作負荷啊但是他還是可以監督社保司啊你讓他成功的升官還在主命的位置上啊"},{"start":336.994,"end":358.845,"text":"讓他繼續不受監督,他不用來這裡了啊。為什麼不當一人之下、萬人之下,只去作威作福?社保司的工作是非常重要,而且牽涉到整個我們賢敏健保相關法案的一個法案是一個非常重要的一個工作。沒有人才了嗎?不要騙我啦,人才很多啦,不差他一個。上次子晴被我叫上來還裝無辜,那他跟錄音檔裡面叫人家去自殺。"},{"start":362.947,"end":363.267,"text":"喔!"},{"start":363.267,"end":363.887,"text":"那個語氣真是天壤之別阿!"},{"start":363.887,"end":364.047,"text":"不然你有聽到嗎?你有聽到嗎?"},{"start":364.047,"end":367.889,"text":"那錄音帶你有聽到嗎?部長這種人你確定要繼續保他官位嗎?你確定要繼續保他官位嗎?阿不是已經多少週了嗎?你現在還在跟我講原來你還沒有做完你就把調查報告送出來阿和部長之前也很嘴硬阿結果下午就辭職了阿"},{"start":390.817,"end":390.957,"text":"報告委員．"},{"start":407.08,"end":407.441,"text":"市長請你留在台上"},{"start":422.518,"end":437.591,"text":"你竟然要一直上門就留在台上竟然說劉玉娟是以不當的比喻要求同仁序自我找出問題的嚴重性才不會被他殺部長我覺得整個衛福部的高層完全沒有從勞動部的教訓悲劇得到教訓叫下屬去自殺表示誠意這個叫比喻失當喔他講多少次叫人家去親身欸"},{"start":444.059,"end":444.099,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":460.307,"end":471.994,"text":"你一直在聽他說話嗎?報告委員他的意思就是說你要對外要公開要把細節講得清楚他的意思就是說你要先自己先處理你如果自己沒有先處理的話那麼你等到外界來的話那這樣可能就不妥所以他的整個脈絡是這樣啦所以我會說這個比喻真的是真的不當所以我們也覺得就是說這個部分應該可以"},{"start":485.572,"end":506.841,"text":"部長,像劉玉娟這種高壓領導、言語霸凌,你敢不會煩惱補助,像北分署一樣無信同仁一樣做出無法挽救的選擇嗎?你真的要等鬧出人命嗎?好,我現在唸一個訊息給你聽,好嗎?來。委員好,這封信是在沉痛的心情下寫的。感謝委員舉發劉市長的惡舉。當看到委員的咨詢時,知道終於有人會關注。"},{"start":508.061,"end":527.147,"text":"辛苦、受苦的同仁就在前幾天一位同仁輾轉告訴我臺北業務組一位濟姓同仁在109年6月在家自殺身亡他本身是虔誠的基督徒一個基督徒為何會自殺當然如委員之前所述SOP的結論就是濟姓員工因憂鬱症而自殺死亡"},{"start":528.5,"end":550.205,"text":"與主管管教無關然而該科是由五六位同仁要求做心理輔導這件事的處理是由劉司長以及他當時的心腹賴信科長一起處理至於如何處理事實如何外人無法得知也無法進一步查證畢竟當時的劉組長現在已經高升衛福部的主命當時的賴信科長也高升本署的"},{"start":551.452,"end":573.488,"text":"屬本部的副組長請問關關相互下誰敢說這位同仁表達是因為他看不下去一直都留著這位寄信同仁的副文這還是都還是陳昭姿寫的希望將來有一天能還這位同仁清白今天的調查結果一定不會有以上的案情說明果然是沒有這樣就證明總統及行政院長卓院長的指示根本不會落實還受這個能夠還給這個受冤者清白好我們看這個"},{"start":583.215,"end":601.309,"text":"這就是大衛親身的建保署台北業務組同仁的副文這是四年前的事當時建保署台北業務組的組長就是劉玉娟我想你可能不清楚劉玉娟在建保署台北業務組的時候裡面的員工有多痛苦根本是度日如年我再念一段陳情文給你聽"},{"start":602.905,"end":624.491,"text":"劉司長於109年3月接掌健保署臺北業務組組長這是臺北業務組同仁夢夜的開始一、有位同仁儘管現在已經退休他說他到現在只要聽到劉司長的一切消息手仍然會顫抖他只想要忘記這段過去拒絕談論這一切但他希望有人能夠勇敢的站出來舉發二、有兩位科長因受不了劉司長的"},{"start":626.191,"end":651.91,"text":"長官領導風格括號自動降調為非主管降調另外有一位專委三位科長被逼退休由於目前仍在署內的資訊同仁署本部資訊長官只能盡量用會議的名稱名義讓他回署本部逃離工作現場這是這仍然是他寫的這是我最近所聽聞的一切一切聽聞當然也是要以署理依據總統及行政院長的指示一一要調查清楚及釐清"},{"start":652.33,"end":675.527,"text":"但是仍然令人失望有人跟我說這種問卷調查結果會有很大的失真不是所有同仁都知道只給新進人員所以受傷的很多很多人都不知道有這份問卷調查甚至含杯離職或退休人都不知道有這份問卷所以在職的同仁及離職的同仁都認為問卷調查內容還只限於工作量的合理與否故意避開擴權濫權"},{"start":678.129,"end":684.912,"text":"所以填了也沒有效用因為他們是同一伙的關關相互對於做限制性的問卷調查敢怒不敢言這就是衛福部同仁的心聲希望你們聽進去我們絕對依規定並公處理"},{"start":696.497,"end":721.789,"text":"至於這一件事件剛剛您說的是一件事件我們也了解得相當清楚請理事說明一下報告委員其實這個事件我們都很遺憾但是據我們了解這個狀況事實上同仁十多年前就已經有接受相關的一個就已經接受治療那其實這個有關的整個事件發生跟調查情況市政委員都可以查證那其實老實說發生這個情況我們真的都不樂見但是我要強調這個事實上就整個時序上部長"},{"start":725.29,"end":745.455,"text":"你以為我打當事人的家屬過來嗎?我們也不樂見有心人士來刻意操作這種不幸的事件來影射,老實說對於這個家長還有對於同仁事實上都是一個整個二度的災害。市長,你既然知道這件事的過程,除了霸凌之外：如果委員如果有了解,我們都可以把相關的就醫紀錄跟報告來跟委員報告,謝謝。然後你的廢話我都不聽了,部長,這股一間醫學大樓的性騷案你有沒有注意到這個新聞?性騷案!"},{"start":747.435,"end":758.639,"text":"根據新聞報導,某位國內知名的婦產科全衛西教授性騷擾6名住院研究醫師而且已經經過臺大醫院性評會、教評會調查確認。博定,你覺得已經經過確認該如何處置這位醫師?博定你說"},{"start":764.107,"end":785.558,"text":"我想醫師如果涉及性騷擾性侵害或者是性別除了應該由雇主以性騷擾防治法性別就性別性平三法的規定來辦理或者由司法機關追來部長我要跟你講這位西教授不甘心唷堂鼠利用"},{"start":786.979,"end":791.264,"text":"業務機會犯罪行為經判刑確定或執行業務違反醫學倫理德醫醫師法第25條規定由醫師工會或主管機關依附懲戒。我想現在...我沒看到啦!我沒看到懲戒啦!這個徐教授不甘心還要找這個同為"},{"start":803.279,"end":811.483,"text":"國內婦產科大佬的總統府資政求救．這個資政還因此打電話給臺大校長陳文章關說甚至這個西教授現在已經轉到這個資政在臺中的任職這樣的安排OK嗎?你剛剛說從理、準理跟專業的角度我要告訴你不定婦產科醫師被認為性騷確認婦產科醫師的工作就是會牽涉接觸到女性最隱密的檢查"},{"start":830.704,"end":855.378,"text":"該醫院還怎麼說?什麼教會叫護理人員一旁監視?內診的時候換別的醫師做?簡直是亂來啊!不中!這是那幾位受害的醫師、女醫師。她跟我們部內的某個立法委討論之後,她寫了很多建議報告。我念兩點給你聽。姓邵名醫離職台大後,現職醫院隨便說內診。"},{"start":857.259,"end":862.965,"text":"改別人接手他看診然後等內責改別人醫師接手但實際上衍生恐掛名跟實際執行醫師不一致的全責釐清問題當醫療糾紛出現的時候怎麼辦好很重要的不管是加碼人員條例第22條跟明文規定曾有性侵害、性騷擾、性剝削或內在兒童性行為不得在幼兒園服務或是營養師"},{"start":877.499,"end":903.619,"text":"第二條,營養師法第6條規定,懲犯訴清嚴毒條例、麻醉藥品管理條例或危害毒品危害條例等,並經判決認定不能擔任營養師。啊,那,沒中。啊,一個副廠科醫師已經被好多名醫師這樣子確認,性騷確認。我要告訴你們這些醫師喔,他不只是被摸到腦臀部甚至還被摸進內褲,只能向院方申請保護令,禁止那位醫師靠近。"},{"start":904.48,"end":908.265,"text":"而且信騷的醫師們甚至要到專科醫師考完"},{"start":909.588,"end":911.069,"text":"站出來檢舉都在擔心我有一天會不會被秋後算帳不定"},{"start":941.716,"end":947.299,"text":"醫師懲罪委員會可以依照他的情節、輕重、予以懲罪所謂：包括限制他的職業範圍：你認為他適合進行做婦產科醫師嗎?你認為他適合進行做婦產科醫師嗎?這個應該由醫師懲罪委員會來處理："},{"start":965.788,"end":965.808,"text":"謝謝委員．謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":793,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時15分）有請邱部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，上週呂次召開霸凌案調查記者會，你有什麼感想？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然用嚴肅的心情來面對所有相關的事件，也要求一定一切要秉公處理、依法辦理，然後我們也成立了調查的……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我問的是你的感想，我想你們會有一些原則。對於上週的記者會，我只有8個字給部長：官官相護，避重就輕！勞動部第1次的調查報告，何部長還說是嘔心瀝血的報告，引發眾怒；然後部長，你也不遑多讓，說這是用心、高規格的調查。我們就來看一下有多用心、有多高規格。","部長，你們衛福部總共調查了8個案子，上週的記者會就丟出1張A4的新聞稿，請問這張新聞稿是等於調查報告嗎？是嗎？部長，請你回答，是不是等於調查報告？"],["邱部長泰源：應該是調查的結論。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，它不是調查報告，那為什麼不公開完整的調查報告呢？勞動部無論是第1次的調查或第2次重啟調查的記者會，都當下立即把調查報告傳上網，公開給社會大眾看，衛福部為什麼不敢公開呢？請回答。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們這次的調查是非常深度跟廣度，也請外……也尊重外部……"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼勞動部有跑出人命了，都可以公開？"],["邱部長泰源：尊重外部專家非常專業的評斷。"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼不能公開？"],["邱部長泰源：其實我們在訪談當中牽涉到非常多的同仁，對於這些同仁我們必須要做去識別化……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，該蓋黑的就塗黑嘛！你的調查報告還是要出來，你現在是不是可以立刻請業務單位把調查報告上網？做得到嗎？勞動部都做到了，你做不到嗎？我現在給你時間馬上交代，我質詢完回辦公室要上網去看報告，可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們請調查小組的召集人呂次長……"],["陳委員昭姿：我要報告就好，我不要你怎麼做，我要調查報告。"],["呂次長建德：主席，也非常感謝委員的關心。我跟委員做一個簡單報告，其實我們這個部分確實有96位同仁受到訪談，在訪談的過程裡面基本上……"],["陳委員昭姿：這些有講到就不用，新聞稿有講到就不用了。"],["呂次長建德：他們基本上還是希望不具名，因為這裡面會牽涉到……"],["陳委員昭姿：不具名沒問題啊！不具名沒問題啊！"],["呂次長建德：對，可是這裡面因為有一些同仁他們還是希望可能也有一些目前……"],["陳委員昭姿：那你就是還沒有做好嘛！那個報告還不確實嘛！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們其實都已經做好……"],["陳委員昭姿：你有困難？"],["呂次長建德：這裡面還是要考量同仁他們的隱私，其實事實上還有後續的一些情況……"],["陳委員昭姿：你可以把identity蓋好。"],["呂次長建德：其實我們也透過這次的審查……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，次長，請稍等……"],["呂次長建德：其實很多同仁他們願意站出來……"],["陳委員昭姿：你在糊弄我啦！"],["呂次長建德：我們都非常尊重，正是這樣整個……"],["陳委員昭姿：你在糊弄我，你在重講一次故事。好，這不是我要的答案！"],["呂次長建德：我覺得好不容易建立起來信心，我們應該要來好好保護同仁……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，次長請回！"],["呂次長建德：所以我想這個部分還是對於後續同仁的保護……"],["陳委員昭姿：後續你什麼時候要……我等一下質詢完回去，我就要看啊！我要看調查報告啊！你該處理就處理啊！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我想這個部分恐怕也是要來仔細……"],["陳委員昭姿：勞動部做得到，你做不到啊！"],["呂次長建德：還是要來保護……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，次長，請回！"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，各機關依照公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法，都要組成安全衛生防護小組，督導機關內部人員遭受不法侵害的處理，當然包括霸凌案。請問衛福部內部的防護小組有哪些成員？主席是誰？"],["邱部長泰源：主席是呂建德次長。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是啊！有衛福部官員跟我說劉玉娟主秘是防護小組的主席，本次是因為迴避，暫時由次長代替，但是劉玉娟現在還是主秘，之後他是不是可以看、調閱報告？他可不可以知道約談了哪些人、這些被約談的人講了什麼話？部長，請告訴我，他可不可以看得到？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們這次的調查報告是……","人事處處長他……"],["陳委員昭姿：就能不能看得到這些內容告訴我就好。"],["李處長玉惠：這些調查報告目前都是密件。"],["陳委員昭姿：目前？"],["李處長玉惠：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是他回到……他還是主秘啊！"],["李處長玉惠：不會、不會、不會、不會。"],["陳委員昭姿：你如何處理讓他看不到？他是主席啊！"],["李處長玉惠：不是，因為安全防護小組現在的召集人自從主秘……我們原來主秘是召集人，可是他列案之後，我們立即換成我們的政務次長。"],["陳委員昭姿：已經撤換掉了，但是他是主秘，他還是主秘喔！"],["李處長玉惠：不會、不會，因為相關的關係人都不會看到報告。謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我了解，你要告訴我這一份報告……我不知道多久，他暫時看不到，我只理解他暫時看不到。部長，你知道部內的員工現在很害怕嗎？怕被劉玉娟秋後算帳。你覺得在這種氛圍之下，衛福部有辦法作出符合事實的調查嗎？只要劉玉娟一天在主秘的位子上，就沒有人敢說真話。今天劉玉娟有來嗎？沒有啊！因為你把他免兼社保司司長，他是完全順利地升官，他免兼社保司司長，他除掉了工作負荷，但是他還是可以監督社保司，你讓他成功地升官，還在主秘的位子上，讓他繼續不受監督，他不用來這裡了啊！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，社保司……"],["陳委員昭姿：在衛福部一人之下、萬人之上，繼續作威作福！"],["邱部長泰源：社保司的工作是非常重要，而且它牽涉到整個全民健保相關法案，是一個非常重要的……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有人才了嗎？不要騙我了！人才很多啦！不差他一個！上次質詢被我叫上來，還裝無辜！跟他在錄音檔裡面叫人家去自殺，那個語氣真的是天壤之別啊！部長，你有聽到嗎？你有聽到嗎？那個錄音帶你有聽到嗎？部長，這種人，你確定要繼續保他官位嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：錄音帶當然我有聽到，但是我必須要說明，對錄音帶我們一定要詳細地把前面、後面連結到整個，才能對他公平……"],["陳委員昭姿：不是已經都做了嗎？你現在還在跟我講……原來你還沒有做完，就把調查報告送出來。何部長之前也很嘴硬，結果下午就辭職了！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：你如果繼續這個態度，你是不是也準備撐不久了呢？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，委員剛剛所垂詢的這個，其實事實上有它的脈絡的，據我們內部調查，我們了解就是說……"],["陳委員昭姿：什麼脈絡！就叫部屬……"],["呂次長建德：其實事實上是當時是在有關於整個公文的部分，其實主秘的意思……"],["陳委員昭姿：好了、好了，次長，你就留在臺上……"],["呂次長建德：我想這個其實是有一個具體的脈絡，主要是指導同仁公文撰寫的過程，我想態度、用語確實是不對，所以在這個部分我們也對他做行政懲處。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有、沒有，等一下、等一下！次長，請你留在臺上，你既然要一直上來，你就留在臺上。竟然說劉玉娟是以不當的比喻要求同仁去自我找出問題嚴重性，才不會被他殺。部長，我覺得整個衛福部的高層完全沒有從勞動部的悲劇得到教訓！叫下屬去自殺表示誠意，這個叫比喻失當喔？他講多少次叫人家去輕生耶！叫屬下去輕生耶！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我還原一下……"],["陳委員昭姿：這樣叫作比喻喔？比喻不當喔？如果是你女兒呢？"],["呂次長建德：它的脈絡是這樣，就是說，在臺北業務組的時候，當時因為疫情嘛……"],["陳委員昭姿：這根本就是衛福部版的「立意良善版」啦！"],["呂次長建德：其實就是當時署長有一個要求，他現在的意思就是說，整個檢討必須要把……"],["陳委員昭姿：你一直在替他說話嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，他的意思就是說，你要對外公開，要把細節講得清楚，他的意思就是說，你要自己先處理，如果自己沒有先處理的話……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是你們的調查，我只問你，叫人家部屬一直輕生、輕生、輕生，不是言語霸凌嗎？"],["呂次長建德：那就等到外界來的話，這樣可能就不妥，所以它的整個脈絡是這樣……"],["陳委員昭姿：嚇死人了！"],["呂次長建德：所以我會說這個比喻真的不當……"],["陳委員昭姿：你能保證劉玉娟的高壓領導、言語霸凌下……"],["呂次長建德：所以我們也覺得這個部分應該可以……"],["陳委員昭姿：你說比喻不當……部長，像劉玉娟這種高壓領導、言語霸凌，你難道不擔心衛福部的同仁像北分署吳姓同仁一樣，作出無法挽救的選擇嗎？你真的要等到鬧出人命嗎？","我現在唸一個訊息給你聽：「委員好，這封信是在沉重的心情下寫的，感謝委員舉發劉司長的惡舉，當看到委員的質詢時，知道終於有人會關注辛苦、受苦的同仁。就在前幾天一位同仁輾轉告訴我，臺北業務組一位紀姓同仁在109年6月在家自殺身亡，他本身是虔誠的基督徒，一個基督徒為何會自殺？當然如委員之前所述，SOP的結論就是，紀姓員工因憂鬱症而自殺死亡，與主管管教無關。然而該科室有五、六位同仁要求做心理輔導，這件事的處理是由劉司長以及他當時的心腹賴姓科長一起處理，至於如何處理、事實如何，外人無法得知，也無法進一步查證，畢竟當時的劉組長現在已經高升為衛福部的主秘，當時的賴姓科長也高升本署署本部的副組長，請問官官相護下，誰敢說？這位同仁表達，是因為他看不下去，他一直都留著這位紀姓同仁的訃聞」，這都是陳情人寫的。「希望將來有一天能還這位同仁清白。今天的調查結果一定不會有以上的案情說明」果然是沒有！這樣就證明總統及行政院卓院長的指示根本不會落實，能夠還給受冤者清白。","我們看一下這個，我從來沒有把這個東西放在質詢稿上。部長，這就是貴單位輕生的健保署臺北業務組同仁的訃聞，這是4年前的事，當時健保署臺北業務組的組長就是劉玉娟，我想你可能不清楚劉玉娟在健保署臺北業務組的時候，裡面的員工有多痛苦，根本是度日如年！","我再唸一段陳情文給你聽。劉司長於109年3月接掌健保署臺北業務組組長，這是臺北業務組同仁夢魘的開始。一，有位同仁儘管現在已經退休，但他說，到現在他只要聽到有關劉司長的消息手仍會顫抖！他只想忘記這段過去，拒絕談論這一切，但他希望有人能勇敢站出來舉發。二，有兩位科長因受不了劉司長的長官領導風格，於是自動降調為非主管職；另外有一位專委、三位科長被逼退休。有位目前仍在署內的資訊同仁，署本部的資訊長官只能儘量以開會為由讓他回署本部，逃離工作現場。這是我最近所聽聞的，而一切聽聞，署裡當然要依據總統及行政院長的指示一一調查清楚及釐清，但結果仍然令人失望！有人跟我說，這種問卷調查結果會有很大的失真，因為不是所有同仁都知道，而且只給新進人員，所以很多受傷的人並不知道有這份問卷調查，甚至連含悲離職或退休人員都不知道有這份問卷！所以不管在職同仁或離職同仁都認為，問卷調查內容限於工作量的合理與否，故意避開擴權、濫權，所以填了也沒有用，因為他們是同一夥的，是官官相護！對於限制性的問卷調查，敢怒不敢言！","部長，這就是衛福部同仁的心聲，希望你能聽進去！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們絕對依規定秉公處理。至於這次事件，剛剛您說的事件，我們也了解得相當清楚，請呂次來說明一下。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這次事件我們都很遺憾。據我們了解，事實上，該名同仁十多年前就已經接受相關治療，至於整件事件的發生跟調查情況、事證，委員都可以查證。老實說，發生這種情況，我們真的不樂見！但我要強調，就整個時序上……"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，你要我找當事人家屬過來嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我們也不樂見有心人士刻意操作這種不幸事件來影射，老實說，對於家長、對於同仁，這是二度傷害……"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，你既然知道這件事……"],["呂次長建德：如果委員想了解，我們可以把相關的就醫紀錄跟報告來向委員報告，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：除了霸凌之外……","好了！次長，你的廢話我就不聽了！部長，最近有件醫學大學的性騷案，你有沒有注意到這則性騷案新聞？根據新聞報導，某位國內知名婦產權威C教授性騷擾六名住院研究醫師，而且已經經過臺大醫院性平會、教評會調查確認。部長，既然已經經過確認，該如何處置這位醫師？部長，你說！"],["邱部長泰源：醫師如果涉及性騷擾、性侵害，或者是……"],["陳委員昭姿：確認了。"],["邱部長泰源：除了應由雇主依性騷擾防治法、性平三法規定辦理，或由司法機關來追究刑事責任……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我跟你講，這位C教授不甘心喔……"],["邱部長泰源：倘屬利用業務機會犯罪行為經判刑確定或執行業務違反醫學倫理，得依醫師法第二十五條規定，由醫師公會或主管機關移付懲戒。我想現在……"],["陳委員昭姿：我沒看到懲戒，但我知道C教授不甘心，還找同為國內婦產科大老的總統府資政求救，該名資政還一直打電話給臺大校長陳文章關說，C教授現在也已經轉到該名資政在臺中的醫院繼續任職，這樣的安排OK嗎？你剛剛說從倫理跟專業的角度來看，但我要告訴部長，現在是婦產科醫師性騷確認！因為婦產科醫師工作內容會接觸到女性最隱密的檢查，但你知道該醫院怎麼說嗎？什麼叫護理師一旁嚴格監視，內診請別的醫師做？簡直亂來！部長，這是那幾位受害的女醫師跟我們某個立法委員討論之後，寫了很多建議報告，我念兩點給你聽：性騷名醫離職臺大後，現職醫院辯說，內診改別人接手，他只看診，內診改別的醫師接手？這在實際上恐衍生掛名與實際執行醫師不一致的權責釐清問題，尤其當醫療糾紛出現的時候怎麼辦？很重要的一點是，教保人員條例第十二條明文規定，曾有性侵害、性騷擾、性剝削或虐待兒童之行為，不得在幼兒園服務；營養師法第六條規定，曾犯肅清煙毒條例、麻醉藥品管理條例或毒品危害條例等，並經判決認定者，不能擔任營養師。部長，現在是一名婦產科醫師被好多名醫師檢舉性騷確認！我還要告訴你，這些醫師說：他不只是被摸到臀部，甚至還被摸進內褲，只能向院方聲請保護令，禁止該名醫師靠近。更甚者，這些被性騷的醫師們直到專科醫師考完，才敢站出來檢舉，為什麼？因為醫療場域非常封閉且權力高度不對等，這個大老可能會影響他們專科醫師考試的結果。你想想看，一個女性婦產科專科醫師，在接受四年高強度訓練之後，還要一邊擔心被前輩性騷、被摸大腿、摸臀部，甚至摸進內褲裡，有人因此去看身心科醫師，因為走不出被性騷的陰影，連站出來檢舉都要擔心有一天會不會被秋後算帳！部長，你沒有這份報告嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：醫師懲戒委員會可以依照其情節輕重予以懲戒……"],["陳委員昭姿：狀況很嚴重，都已經確認了！"],["邱部長泰源：包括可以限制他的執業範圍，可以停業……"],["陳委員昭姿：你認為他適合繼續做婦產科醫師嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以廢止執業執照……"],["陳委員昭姿：你認為他適合繼續做婦產科醫師嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：最重得廢止醫師證書……"],["陳委員昭姿：全國人民公評，一個婦產科醫師……"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個應該由醫師懲戒委員會來處理……"],["陳委員昭姿：你會處理？為什麼不處理？我質詢了才處理？已經案發這麼久了？"],["邱部長泰源：這個臺大有在處理。臺大處理以後……"],["陳委員昭姿：一個被認定長期性騷的醫師，他可以繼續做婦產科醫師嗎？行政院性平會在哪裡，你們怎麼不出聲？民進黨性平會在哪裡，怎麼不出聲？台灣女人連線在哪裡，你們怎麼都不出聲？只會處理我那個代孕……","部長，這個我會要求你，後續我會緊追著你今天的報告。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":2714.758,"end":2723.841,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議．事由．一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議．事由．一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議．事由．一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議．事由．一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議．事由．一、邀請國家運輸安全調"},{"start":2743.66,"end":2768.962,"text":"唐港建設基金、臺灣港務股份有限公司、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司、臺鐵局撥入資產及債務管理基金預算。本日會議由交通部部長陳士凱等報告後,繼由委員林沛翔等22人提出質詢。均經部長陳士凱及相關人員分別予以答覆。決議一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員鍾嘉斌所提書面質詢列入記錄。"},{"start":2770.064,"end":2798.564,"text":"並刊登公報。三、委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分,請交通部盡數以書面答覆。四、第一案令折旗進行處理為預算提案於12月16日,中午12時截止收件。二、五、第二案自第五案均令折旗進行處理為預算提案於12月19日,中午12時截止收件。散會宣讀完畢。好,那我們議事部等一下再確定"},{"start":2800.046,"end":2827.882,"text":"首先介紹這個現場的在場的委員林國成委員謝謝林委員接下來列席委員我依序來介紹首先介紹國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得主委謝謝林主委副主任委員葉明山以及我們張文煥委員張委員李延年委員"},{"start":2830.714,"end":2844.101,"text":"姚承安主秘以及林佩達執行長以上是運安會到場的列席官員還有我們航空調查組劉東銘組長以及我們水務調查組蘇水兆組長"},{"start":2854.81,"end":2879.689,"text":"鐵道調查組吳吉村組長吳組長公務調查組曾仁松組長運輸安全組鄭永安組長運輸工程組莊禮昌組長以及我們人事室廖娟會主任"},{"start":2882.352,"end":2901.158,"text":"政風是康熙平主任主計是孫淑信主任秘書是楊一文主任好,以上是我們運安會所有到場的官員接下來我們交通部"},{"start":2902.605,"end":2915.396,"text":"我們陳士凱部長,謝謝啊,今天部長很忙,早上也都在我們交委會。以及我們陸正及盜安司黃韻貴市長。黃市長。公共藝術及監理司林福山市長。會計處陳凱尼專門委員。接下來,運研所林記國所長。"},{"start":2932.23,"end":2939.956,"text":"主計是曾麒麟主任接下來鐵道局楊振軍局長主計是陳康廷主任行政院"},{"start":2961.502,"end":2969.821,"text":"主計總處公務預算處王淺凱專委。好的王專委齁。以及基金預算處李聖道科長。"},{"start":2975.094,"end":2997.88,"text":"好,今天的會議進行第一,邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主委林信得列席報告業務概況及立法計劃第二、114年度國家運輸安全調查委員會以及交通部運援所、鐵道局及所屬單位預算及鐵道發展基金非營業預算等四項預算進行審查、詢答"},{"start":3005.029,"end":3032.164,"text":"那待會我們一一來做一個報告目前這個得到的時間也讓待會的委員能夠預估一下我們待會運安會會用10分鐘然後我們交通部部長3分鐘運研所5分鐘以及鐵道局楊局長會7分鐘總共現在預估大概會有25分鐘的這個報告好首先我們就請這個運安會林主委針對業務概況及預算一併報告"},{"start":3044.1,"end":3057.797,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位理事、各位先生、大家好。今天非常榮幸列席貴委員會向主席及各位委員報告運安會的業務重點及預算執行與別類情形,藉請各位委員不吝給予指導與建議。"},{"start":3060.305,"end":3088.504,"text":"本會主要執掌重大運輸事故的調查。調查範圍涵蓋航空、水路、鐵道及公路。透過系統性的調查可以完整發掘可能噪音及安全風險提出改善建議以防止類似事故的再發生。相關的業務重點分數如下。第一有關重大運輸事故的調查業務。調查進入方面本會自108年8月1日成立期間"},{"start":3090.376,"end":3116.894,"text":"運輸事故立案共298件已經結案268件另有30件根據調查中說明如下航空立案20件結案15件上有5件調查中共發布35項安全改善建議水路立案224件已經結案211件上有13件調查中共發布279項安全改善建議"},{"start":3118.215,"end":3140.153,"text":"鐵道立案30件已經結案28件上有2件調查中共發布221項安全改善協議公路立案24件已經結案14件上有10件調查中共發布150項安全改善協議現在報告近期媒體關注的重大運輸事故關於"},{"start":3142.219,"end":3166.116,"text":"今年7月1日,泰雅航空一架超新型載具在台中市烏日活動場所落地時墜毀的事故。這個案子已經在今年的7月公布初步調查報告。預計明年4月會完成最終的調查報告。關於今年7月25日,扶樹輪雜貨船於高雄港外海沉沒及船員罹難的事故。"},{"start":3168.036,"end":3181.272,"text":"這個是一級的水路事故已經在7月29號完成現場的資料收集8月已經公布初步的報告預計12月會公布事實資料報告明年7月完成最終的調查報告"},{"start":3182.369,"end":3202.141,"text":"瓜胡桑今年6月21日台鐵至強號的列車在新河嶺隧道陣線出軌的事故。這個是也是一級的重大鐵路事故。已經在7月19日發布調查期間的運輸安全通告。請鐵路營運機構評估土石流前市溪流可能的影響。"},{"start":3203.735,"end":3230.939,"text":"那麼請他建立整密的監控及應變機制。這個案子依據在今年的12月發布事實資料報告明年8月完成最終調查報告。國務室今年6月6日電動俠客車國道1號往南湖尾路段自創護欄起火的事故那麼這個是也是一級的重大公訴事故依據明年的1月發布事實資料報告明年12月完成最終調查報告。"},{"start":3232.305,"end":3239.834,"text":"現在報告業務重點第一提升航空水路鐵道及公路事故調查能量"},{"start":3241.093,"end":3270.562,"text":"為了提升調查能量本會藉由辦理研討會專題的演講訓練及參與演習等等方式來持續強化事故調查能量。在人因工程調查能量建設方面採購駕駛員生理訊號量測系統以提升駕駛員工作壓力與負荷之評估能量另外也建設25小時揮航記錄器寫入的解讀裝備還有微型焊接設備及記憶體晶片解讀工具等等第二"},{"start":3271.804,"end":3290.219,"text":"為了增進與國際運輸安全組織之交流提升我國國際能見度本會積極參與國際運輸安全組織聯會及會議相關資料請參閱另外今年沙烏地阿拉伯運輸安全中心也特別派人來本會技術交流"},{"start":3291.428,"end":3314.576,"text":"另外為經濟本會調查人員的專業技能吸取運輸安全調查薪資與技術本會派員參加相關國際運輸調查專業。第三本會與美國加州大學伯克萊分校先進交通技術研究中心在去年9月19日已經簽完MOU"},{"start":3316.502,"end":3330.529,"text":"今年的8月19日到22日我們特別邀請PATH SOS PEDS的主任姆納博士跟詹博士來臺灣進行技術交流。我們也舉辦了2024年電動車、自駕車、人工智慧安全技術的國際論壇及相關專題的研討會。第四、參加鐵道事故調查國際論壇"},{"start":3341.741,"end":3368.096,"text":"這個國際論壇是由我國與日本、新加坡、澳洲及阿根廷五國共同發起成立。今年的10月22日到25日在日本東京召開第一屆的論壇,共有10國代表參加。我們也爭取明年將在台北舉辦。另外,我們也爭取2025年的亞太事務調查工程技術論壇在台北舉辦。第五,提升運具紀錄器的解讀能量。"},{"start":3369.465,"end":3382.092,"text":"我們運輸安全調查委員會已經完成今年的所謂飛航、水路、鐵路、公路的行車記錄裝置的普查報告。各項的記錄器的解讀例如下。航空方面"},{"start":3383.035,"end":3408.932,"text":"我們本來是百分之一百解讀率那麼因為台灣海力航空近期有引進一架AW169直升機他並且安裝新立在25小時的直升機飛航進入器所以我們也已經洽行業者延長購置相關所需的軟硬體與繼續保持百分之一百的解讀率水路的進入的解讀率目前是達到98.42鐵路跟公路都是百分之一百"},{"start":3410.373,"end":3419.125,"text":"adequation 6,運輸安全志願報告系統的運作狀況與成果,迄今本年度共處理4個調查模組的志願報告有110則,編撰並發行8期的運輸安全志願報告系統專刊。"},{"start":3427.025,"end":3452.766,"text":"第七、運輸安全改善建議的追蹤本會迄今共計發佈1754項運輸安全改善建議,完成1620項,完成率92.4%。第八、執行科技計畫本會自今年開始執行建立我國新型運輸事故調查技術安全研究計畫,本計畫為期四年。第三、"},{"start":3454.039,"end":3468.375,"text":"有關單位委員關切議題的執行提醒第一有關重大運輸事故範圍的修正該修正草案已經在今年的7月完成預告作業經會選交通部後目前已報起行政會核定中第二"},{"start":3469.617,"end":3498.436,"text":"為促進運輸安全資訊交流與精進調查專業技術本會每年都舉辦運輸安全資訊交流研討會。今年11月22號在高雄舉辦,邀請國內鐵道主管機關營運單位與學院機構共計大概100人,針對近年來極端氣候、地震與鐵道沿線施工所導致的安全危害控管策略進行研討與互動,達成促進技術資訊交流之目的。"},{"start":3499.471,"end":3525.102,"text":"三、有關鐵道邊坡管理的運輸安全問題本會在台鐵的泰魯格案調查報告中有建議台鐵公司針對列車運轉具潛在危險處設置偵測設備並提供適當防護措施引引。台鐵公司已規劃於沿線高空險路段偵測實體阻隔並搭配告警系統,預計明年6月完成。"},{"start":3526.311,"end":3546.985,"text":"那麼本會也會對今年6月台鐵新和田隧道事故針對土石流及邊坡架構系統制建設情形進行調查並釐清其運作方式及功能以提出改善建議。接下來報告113年度預算直接施行第一有關稅務部分113年度輸入部分預算數20萬元至11月底執行數246,000元佔累計分配數"},{"start":3554.212,"end":3557.455,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":3574.611,"end":3589.922,"text":"現在來報告114年預算的備列情形第一稅數部分114的稅數部分備列20萬元跟113的一樣最主要是大樓的行動電話基地台及停車位的出入等等稅數部分"},{"start":3591.547,"end":3595.929,"text":"邊列2億3496萬8千元,較113年增加953萬元,增幅約4.23,主要的內容說明如下﹖1、一般行政邊列1億8037萬4千元,增加612萬3千元,增幅約3.51%,最主要是配合競工價的調薪。"},{"start":3615.885,"end":3640.65,"text":"以及一些行政工作的維持費用。第五、有關運輸事故的調查編列1552萬元政府是16.550。有關的編列項目如航空、水路、鐵道、公路的資料收集等等。另外我們也舉辦2025年鐵道事故的調查國際論壇。第三、有關運輸安全分析工程界列編列323萬元。比去年政府是0.84%。"},{"start":3643.598,"end":3666.437,"text":"那麼再來就是報告精進運輸事故調查能量別列3628萬元增加120萬政府大概3.57%主要是要研擬陸海空掀起運氣的調查技術強化運輸事故調查工程能量精進運輸事故人為因素的調查能量還有另外也要舉辦2025年亞太事故調查工程技術論壇"},{"start":3668.035,"end":3689.623,"text":"那麼依據施政的習效請大家參閱。那麼前以本會將持續秉持獨立公正專業的精神,持續認真執行陸海空運輸事故的調查任務,並持續努力精進專業知識與預防事故於未來,採取積極措施來避免事故的發生,確保我國運輸安全隨著科技與實際的變遷不斷進入。"},{"start":3691.769,"end":3717.135,"text":"感謝委員波榮、劉文天﹑近期各位委員對本會業務與支持,共同為提升臺灣海陸工藝術安全實現努力。以上報告完畢。好,謝謝主委。好,接下來有請,好,等一下,我先確認一下藝術路。好,在場各位委員對於我們的藝術路有沒有意見?沒有。好,沒有意見。"},{"start":3718.274,"end":3744.935,"text":"我們議事錄確定接下來有請我們交通部陳世凱部長報告主席各位委員女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就本部運輸研究所鐵道局暨鐵道發展基金114年度業務計劃及預算編列情形提出報告敬請指教"},{"start":3745.975,"end":3774.011,"text":"運營所為本部重要的智庫與前瞻創新研究機構協助本部研擬運輸發展政策及策略統合協調運輸政策及執行計畫以及研發先進運輸技術與創新應用並依據本部施政重點辦理各項重要施政計畫協助本部逐步落實與精進各項交通施政各項研究成果及評估建議供本部及相關機關"},{"start":3775.512,"end":3794.474,"text":"作為施政決策之支援與應用。鐵道局致力打造、便捷、優質、智慧化及符合近鄰碳排永續發展之軌道建設,持續推動各項重大鐵道及捷運建設,提升鐵道以及捷運交通基礎建設,"},{"start":3795.675,"end":3810.818,"text":"均衡我國區域發展及促進國內鐵道運輸產業升級提供國人穩定可靠安全舒適之軌道運輸服務令透過鐵道發展基金辦理鐵道發展及監理相關作業114年度將持續就鐵道路網規劃、鐵道營運監理、廠站開發以及鐵道產業等四個面向業務推動多項重要工作"},{"start":3825.731,"end":3845.677,"text":"其促進鐵道運輸及相關產業之發展有關運營所、鐵道局及鐵道發展基金114年度業務計劃及預算編制內容由林所長及楊局長向各位委員提出報告與說明,敬請賄與支持。謝謝。好,謝謝陳部長。"},{"start":3854.397,"end":3857.152,"text":"接下來有請運研所林所長進行報告。"},{"start":3867.813,"end":3892.755,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生、大家早今天應邀列席貴委員會就本所114年度施政計畫及預算編列提出報告自感榮幸首先報告112年度與113年度截至11月份指預算執行情形112年度稅入預算執行率71.48%主要是本所國際會議廳陳出情形未如預期"},{"start":3893.996,"end":3901.962,"text":"一、二年度稅出預算執行率94.9%有關113年度稅入預算執行率是117.21%稅出預算的執行率是93.53年度終了將可達成預算執行進度接下來有關114年度施政計畫的重點包括"},{"start":3918.155,"end":3943.668,"text":"辦理第6期的整體運輸規劃、精進運輸計畫評估與審議工具、健全整體運輸系統發展。辦理海空運數位轉型及永續發展研究、健全國際海空港環境永續發展。持續擴充標誌標線號誌設置參考指引,發展道路安全檢查制度及交通衝突分析技術,改善道路環境交通安全。"},{"start":3944.915,"end":3972.017,"text":"建置共享運具、連結公共運輸示範場域並修訂相關的指引以及汽車貨運業近鄰轉型策略規劃與行動方案的研擬來優化整體產業經營環境強化智慧運輸科技的研究發展與整合測試推動無人機在交通領域的創新應用與商業驗證支援交通部推動交通科技資訊整合與應用服務"},{"start":3973.138,"end":3984.083,"text":"另外就是評估運輸部門溫室氣體減量行動方案的成果跟減碳的效益滾動檢討及研擬低碳與淨零的運輸策略同時會來強化運輸管理計劃構的調適專業能力"},{"start":3988.837,"end":3994.182,"text":"另外就是研發運輸設施防災調適技術、精進三港海西項及時觀測與模擬技術、落實設施維護管理機制與智慧環境監測。接下來報告110年14年度的預算編列情形稅務部分"},{"start":4004.973,"end":4019.102,"text":"編列237萬3千元同上年度請參閱附件一稅數部分編列4億8千133萬3千元較上年度增列9千零10萬6千元其中運輸科技應用研究業務編列9千751萬3千元系辦理運輸部門深度檢探與調試研究計畫陸運及港灣設施防災技術研究計畫等研究所需經費"},{"start":4031.69,"end":4054.011,"text":"叫上年度增列958萬1千元主要是新增智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫智慧道路技術應用與運輸效率升級計畫經費在一般行政部分編列2億2978萬5千元叫上年度增列259萬元主要是配合薪資調整新增人事費本經費"},{"start":4055.012,"end":4079.101,"text":"在運輸研究業務部分編列一億四千四百零一萬五千元是辦理人本交通運輸研究發展計劃以及營造深度減碳運輸環境及打造低耗能交通場域計劃等所需經費較上年度增列六千九百九十一萬五千元主要是增列營造深度減碳運輸環境及打造低耗能交通場域計劃"},{"start":4080.181,"end":4105.75,"text":"經費。因為原先是編載前瞻的這個特別預算。他們114年度編列到基本需求的運輸研究業務經費。那在一般建築及設備編列982萬元。系辦理包括我們的研究大樓的頂層樓板這些整修的工程、太購電動車輛儀量以及大樓的消防授信總機跟廣播這些相關的設備。較上年度增列804萬元。"},{"start":4107.951,"end":4118.6,"text":"第一倍均20萬元與上年度相同請參閱附件二接下來是預期的私人績效主要有經濟運輸規劃系列的研究來強化運輸系統的均衡發展"},{"start":4122.489,"end":4137.735,"text":"第二是要強化數位轉型及永續發展提升海空運輸整體的競爭力第三是能夠提升道路環境的安全以及強化高齡者交通安全的智能第四可以持續來推動"},{"start":4139.338,"end":4159.722,"text":"智慧、低碳與彈性多元的永續交通。第五是強化智慧運輸及無人機等資通科技的整合應用跟成果推廣。第六是提升運輸部門未來淨零排放及調適能力。第七是強化陸運及港灣設施防災調適能力提供發展智慧港口關鍵資訊及維護臺灣海域船舶航線安全。"},{"start":4163.443,"end":4174.707,"text":"節以本所114年度預算以配合施政需要並橫著各項計畫優先款局以以往年度進行績效妥適編列。敬請各位委員會以支持與指教。謝謝。好,謝謝林所長。今天我們最後一位請鐵道局楊局長進行報告。"},{"start":4189.775,"end":4211.783,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生。現在由鐵道局報告本局114年度施政計畫及預算編列情形。敬請各位委員指教。114年的施政計畫重點本局業務包括鐵道建設、鐵道監理及鐵道發展三個大項目。其中建設的部分是由單位預算。至於鐵道發展跟監理業務則是由基金預算來辦理。"},{"start":4212.663,"end":4235.38,"text":"首先報告鐵道建設的業務重點。我們分為幾個部分做說明。第一個業務是鐵路立體化的建設。114年度我們持續辦理高雄鐵路地下化計畫。商辦大樓、旅館大樓將交付台鐵公司辦理招商。同時開放啟用天鵬集這個廣場成員的這樣的一個工作。我們持續辦理桃園鐵路地下化"},{"start":4236.28,"end":4261.817,"text":"計劃的桃一車站、內力站、鳳鳴站三個車站的主體工程發報另外也持續辦理平鎮臨時站的工程加一市區鐵路高架計劃的工程第二項主要工作是機場捷運延伸計劃及基隆捷運軌道建設這個都是持續性的工作第三項是花東鐵路雙軌電氣化的工作今年主要工作是甘城受風段及東里關山站的土建工程發報"},{"start":4262.777,"end":4287.306,"text":"第四項是有關林軌工程的工程安全管理。我們將透過系統化的安全管理措施維護鐵路行車安全。第二個部分是有關鐵道發展跟監理的相關業務。在鐵道發展的業務裡面最重要的是鐵路路網的相關規劃。我們就環島鐵路網跟地方捷運兩個部分來做說明。鐵路系統部門114年將持續辦理宜蘭鐵路高架、台鐵海線雙軌化"},{"start":4288.786,"end":4306.73,"text":"章化鐵路高架及南迴鐵路線型改善等綜合規劃作業同時新增辦理斗六鐵路高架中規的這樣作業在地方捷運的部分持續補助地方政府辦理捷運路網相關可行性研究跟中規作業114年度包括基隆捷運第二階段路線"},{"start":4307.09,"end":4314.294,"text":"在鐵路監理方面我們透過制度面跟執行面來加強鐵路行車安全的工作在制度面持續透過國家鐵路安全計畫設定安全指標PTCA滾動管理督導鐵路機構促進行車安全在執行面則由鐵路檢查員"},{"start":4331.024,"end":4346.711,"text":"透過安全管理系統的有效性檢查來督促鐵路機構達成安全的目標。第三個部分是場站開發114年度我們持續辦理臺南、嘉義、雲林等高鐵站區的招商作業。第四項有關鐵道產業補助國內研發機構辦理鐵道次系統相關技術研發。"},{"start":4350.613,"end":4368.702,"text":"有關車門、集電工、轉向架等,預期將應用在西東捷運的建設上面。此外,我們也持續補助營運機構辦理維修備品的在地化工作。114年度預算編列情形。單位預算稅入的部分20億3千餘萬元,主要是鐵道發展基金繳雇20億的導致。"},{"start":4371.283,"end":4394.491,"text":"在稅出部分總共編列235.9億元這部分包括4項主要的工作其中第一項跟第三項都是屬於行政跟人員的基本維持費總共編列將近15億元第二項鐵道業務的部分將近30億元是補助台鐵常債基金的利息支出的部分"},{"start":4395.131,"end":4412.879,"text":"最大一項是鐵道建設跟捷運計畫的部分,總共編列191億元,較去年度大幅增加,主要是前瞻建設的部分預算移列到公務預算來做編列。鐵道發展分基金的預算,業務總收入是88億6千餘萬元,業務總支出是13億5千萬億元,後續將辦理固定資產改良及長期投資跟資產轉投資計畫。"},{"start":4422.933,"end":4440.989,"text":"一百一十二年預算執行情形請各位參考一百一十三年預算執行情形在單位預算部分的稅務編列三千餘萬元執行率達到一百二十八點五七稅數預算編列九十億元執行率達百分之九十七左右基金預算總業務收入"},{"start":4441.169,"end":4462.073,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4462.193,"end":4483.773,"text":"三個主體工程的全面開工同時根據辦理機場捷運建設A23的相關工程鐵道發展基金三項自償性計畫均可讀取達成財務自償的目標至於鐵道及相關鐵道發展跟監理相關的事項作業業務主軸我們也將持續在鐵道路網建設跟廠站開發的部分用"},{"start":4484.574,"end":4511.796,"text":"的持續來辦理,同時以績效導向跟風險導向式的監理工作來持續推動國家鐵路的安全。在廠商開發部分,隨著嘉義跟台南站的招商開發,中南部的都市發展可以達到另外一個層次的進步。接下來,鐵道局將持續就鐵道建設、鐵道監理、廠商開發跟鐵道產業等四大市政主軸,透過單位預算跟基金預算的編列來達成永續安全"},{"start":4512.336,"end":4533.072,"text":"智慧的鐵道運輸環境。以上鐵道局報告,敬請各位委員指導指教。謝謝。好,謝謝鐵道局的報告。現在開始進行詢答,先宣告以下事項。第一,詢答時間,初期委員6加2分鐘,列席委員4加1分鐘。"},{"start":4534.867,"end":4556,"text":"厲二、委員發言登記於10點30分截止本委員會委員除外。厲三、各委員會如有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出以便議事人員會診。厲四、暫定10點50分休息10分鐘。厲五、中午原則上不休息現在就請登記第一位李昆哲委員發言"},{"start":4563.634,"end":4591.031,"text":"謝謝召委,請一下陳世凱部長陳部長楊政軍局長好,楊局長部長好,局長好高鐵研製屏東本來有四個方案是有左營方案、燕巢方案、高雄車站方案以及小港機場方案最後是定案與"},{"start":4592.623,"end":4609.935,"text":"左營方案就是相關的這個延伸到六塊錯那左營方案後來遇到問題那我現在要請教一下部長左營方案或者是高雄車站方案到底什麼時候會定案"},{"start":4611.199,"end":4627.374,"text":"報告委員我們希望在年底可以訂案在年底已經快到了之前李孟彥部長的時候他也是說要年底那我就照他的這個年底的這個規劃我們照這個計畫做好那到底是左營方案還是高雄車站方案現在有訂案嗎"},{"start":4628.75,"end":4655.177,"text":"報告委員還沒有最後定案那你必須啊在最後定案的時候必須要向社會大眾清楚的說明為什麼是左營方案為什麼是高雄車站方案或者是為什麼不是左營方案為什麼不是高雄車站方案你們必須要明確的說清楚啊其實都有碰到問題第一個左營方案啊在當初定案的時候第一個他首先碰到的就是啊他從左營站"},{"start":4656.721,"end":4675.065,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預"},{"start":4686.587,"end":4688.989,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":4710.543,"end":4731.793,"text":"第一個民眾的拆遷的問題來請說明一下是報告員民眾拆遷的問題我們當然會把它減到最低但是目前為止因為還沒有進入細部的設計所以也沒有辦法很清楚說哪些一定會影響到哪些一定會影響但是部長我有幾個建議第一個如果是高雄車站方案"},{"start":4733.052,"end":4734.333,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於"},{"start":4757.651,"end":4764.916,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":4784.868,"end":4785.148,"text":"來,局長你講一下。"},{"start":4811.585,"end":4836.599,"text":"謝謝委員指教剛剛特別是委員指導的這個高雄車站古道數的減少我想我們會朝這個方向來做檢討這樣可以大幅減少相關的一些用地上面的取得那第二個就是我們也會盡全力把我們的民挖路段呢限縮到中華山路跟民主路橋這個範圍以內也就是說不影響這兩個高雄民眾的權益最重要拆遷戶的問題是的"},{"start":4838.1,"end":4839.361,"text":"兩條交通動脈之一所以這個必須要去做降低交通衝擊的一個處理"},{"start":4868.2,"end":4885.042,"text":"指高鐵到高雄車站而已而是整個高雄車站必須一個大車站的觀念來重新的一個佈局我們相關的地下道要通到九十路對面建國路那邊以及站東路站西路"},{"start":4886.363,"end":4898.448,"text":"而且啊因為如果是地下通道的話我們鐵道局就可以交通部就可以自己做規劃如果要像台北這種地下街的話我們是必須要跟市政府啊來對話來做整合啊"},{"start":4899.343,"end":4899.483,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":4899.483,"end":4920.655,"text":"這些都是接下來如果是高雄方案的話這都是要進行的工作相關的拆遷都跟安置以及大高雄車站整體的開發除了地下道或地下街的開發之外我們那邊有專市跟專路兩塊地還有高雄車站前面有兩棟大樓已經建好一棟是營業大樓商業大樓一棟是"},{"start":4923.416,"end":4951.953,"text":"光光旅館那其實後站也有兩棟的空地這兩棟也必須要做整體的開發然後兩邊有專事專武就是警察局跟行控中心那邊專事專武還有在高雄火車站到民族路這邊相關的第四種商業區這都必須跟高雄市政府來整體對話來做一個整體的開發你們有沒有做預先的規劃所以說第一個左雲方案或是高雄方案現在還沒有定案"},{"start":4952.913,"end":4976.811,"text":"其實答案已經複製溢出了啦第二個你們必須社會大眾必須明確說明為什麼是這個為什麼不是這個你們必須要明確的說明第三個你們現在跟高雄市政府有對話過嗎?針對我所提的拆遷的問題、禿根的問題以及大高雄車站相關的問題以及降低交通衝擊你們有做過對話嗎?"},{"start":4978.252,"end":5004.677,"text":"報告委員在過去李孟嫣部長的時候有拜訪過陳其邁市長那我上任之後也有拜訪過陳其邁市長針對這件事情來向他做說明那除此之外我們其實鐵道局跟他們的各局處其實很密切在溝通無論是交通方面的規劃或者跟他們副市長在溝通未來整體都市規劃的部分包含整個都更的這個部分還有委員您很關心的地下通道"},{"start":5005.077,"end":5031.974,"text":"甚至是用天棚直接通到周圍區域周邊區域的計畫其實我們都很密切在跟他們做討論那等到我們定案之後比較細部的設計的部分我們會跟高雄市政府來配合那包含都市更新的部分我所聽到的高雄市政府其實可能會提出一個比較大的這個大都更的計畫在這個整整體的高雄火車站的周邊周邊做一個大都更的計畫那這個部分我們會密切跟他們配合其實這個"},{"start":5033.015,"end":5055.606,"text":"今天站在這裡其實感觸蠻深的整個鐵路地下化或綠岩道的設置以及相關鐵路立體化設施的拆除我都有參與甚至在2006年我在交通委員會當時我就有提案要求鐵路地下化施工的時候要預留軌道的空間讓高鐵可以直達我們的高雄車站"},{"start":5056.809,"end":5083.682,"text":"那可惜當時的政府沒有同意沒有預留這個軌道的空間所以今天又重新面臨這個相關的問題那其實在高雄車站方案在之前我跟王國才部長李孟彥部長還有陳思凱部長都有多次的討論我們對社會大眾對高雄市民屏東縣民都必須要明確的報告為什麼"},{"start":5084.582,"end":5108.418,"text":"是這個方案不管是之前我們提過的左雲方案、燕巢方案、高雄車站方案、小港機場方案為什麼後來是左雲方案然後現在後來又變成了左雲方案跟高雄車站方案要選擇一個這個都要有明確的數據未來的發展因為長久的公共利益跟對民眾的利益的"},{"start":5109.178,"end":5110.438,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":5136.854,"end":5162.583,"text":"好謝謝李委員接下來有請林國前委員發言好謝謝主席請應安會林主委應安會林主委還有另外那個航跳組航跳組要不要上來幫忙一下航跳組組長"},{"start":5172.337,"end":5200.802,"text":"主委其實我對於你們這些調查單位跟這些研究單位過去以我個人對你們的認知基本上你們各種編列預算只要是按部就班去做基本上我們是支持可是有一些問題我們必須要去提醒我們林主委也就是我們輕航機的事故"},{"start":5202.993,"end":5219.708,"text":"到底誰要來調查誰要來管這是很重要的林主委所以我在這裡就是清航機的事那最近一件就是12月9號在屏東的"},{"start":5221.167,"end":5229.401,"text":"事故這個第一我要了解你們現在調查如何這第一第二為什麼12月9號"},{"start":5234.664,"end":5262.663,"text":"這個機種跟這一架飛機已經聯繫兩次的事故。不過每一次啊都是鬧出人命之後才開始要來重視所以主委你存在的功能你們貴委員會存在的功能本來就是有瑕疵就調查有問題就要就正本來就是這樣所以我要請教我們主委"},{"start":5264.284,"end":5275.693,"text":"這個12月9號這一架輕航機在屏東所發生這個你們進行調查的如何?可以不可以跟本席說明一下嗎?"},{"start":5276.854,"end":5304.392,"text":"報告委員這個案子已經確實是立案調查那麼他是連續陳主委員剛剛所提的他這個超新級載具的私事的這種系統性我們已經在做統計分析那麼我們最近也跟民航局有聯繫說講這個有一些議題譬如說有大部分三個主要議題是說他沒有在核定的空域裡面來進行會案活動這是違法的"},{"start":5305.313,"end":5323.86,"text":"那麼他差遣採集的維修保養紀錄也坦白講不是那麼完整還有最主要他沒有遵照會計所策的相關規範來操作這個我們跟民進黨局最近也在跟他開會他們也知道他們會加派人力來督導好啦那個那個會員組來"},{"start":5326.53,"end":5343.422,"text":"那個主委所講這些是一個大方向你們現在所調查的這些因為我在乎的就是輕航機他管理跟他的安全因為你們調查之後才有辦法在管理部分如何約束"},{"start":5344.122,"end":5344.943,"text":"Judge 1、審查2、審查3、審查4、審查5、審查6、審查7、審查8、審查9、審查10"},{"start":5364.624,"end":5389.384,"text":"輕航機他已經兩次發生事故了那問題在哪邊問題在哪邊這個不是只有這個飛行員的問題喔那應該是不是他的機種或者他改裝之後是確實是有問題來組長你可以不可以說明一下再深入技巧性你們調查的結果跟本席說明一下吧"},{"start":5390.666,"end":5419.018,"text":"是,跟李委員報告一下目前來講在輕航機這個調查方向我們在主委的指導之下我們也非常重視這一些事情那根據過去的一些調查的報告已經結案的一些事件裡面大體上就是對於輕航機上面我們的維修這一些維修它並不完全按照原廠給的一些規範這是我們覺得是幾乎的一個重點"},{"start":5419.818,"end":5424.104,"text":" bicyclist of the United States of America"},{"start":5436.501,"end":5451.489,"text":"現在的頻率會越來越多包含最近還有一些無人機等等這個頻率會越來越多所以我們目前來講已經跟民航局的標準組我們一起再去看這一方面的事情"},{"start":5452.029,"end":5476.854,"text":"那個我建議啦從七月份八月份我現在跑步你可以看得出來七月份八月份十一月份十二月份這些輕航機的事故他迫降機率非常嚴重也就是每一個月幾乎每一個月都有這些輕航機的意外的不斷甚至有人受傷這個部分我要拜託主委跟拜託我們這個委員會裡面各組啊"},{"start":5480.455,"end":5483.477,"text":"兩、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":5500.35,"end":5507.473,"text":"單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":5529.463,"end":5532.007,"text":" bicy、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5546.167,"end":5563.188,"text":"主動非常重要不要人家10天以後跟你們通報以後你們才來做這個功能幾乎是不可以好不好好那個主委請回謝謝好那個請我們陳部長還有我們那個林所長好林記國所長"},{"start":5572.743,"end":5593.061,"text":"我想部長因為我簡單說一下啦因為你也已經我們同事也已經講這個台鐵漲價的問題嘛那你也講過年以前不可能漲價啦那我還是要特別提醒你我有看到我們這次"},{"start":5593.982,"end":5608.928,"text":"改制為國營公司化之後看起來客人容量跟他的收入是增加的所以這個部分我還是要建議就是我們台鐵漲價的部分真的"},{"start":5609.508,"end":5622.916,"text":"也不要事事都一定要事先預告老百姓讓他們提心吊膽沒有必要但是我這裡要建議也就是我們營運虧損補貼辦法說我們政府要補貼這個部分我要拜託部長盡快給他們"},{"start":5629.76,"end":5652.02,"text":"為什麼我要問這個那主要是我們虧損補貼的部分最主要是牽涉到員工要計算如何要不要發連中獎金所以這個這個跟員工權利有關所以這個我特別我特別要拜託部長要去關心這個因為員工啊"},{"start":5655.543,"end":5674.359,"text":"老公要的不多只是他的安定跟他的確定所以你如果不撥這些他們會影響他們的計算年終到底給不給這個問題報告這個部分我們有跟那個主計總處已經有達成共識了我們有一個確定的方案折衷方案盡快啦盡快啦因為"},{"start":5676.661,"end":5700.642,"text":"因為年終快到了他們現在董事會要計算是牽涉到我虧損的是彌補是不是可以可以可以卡不過去所以這個就會影響他們的年終獎金花跟不花這個問題這個沒問題這個我要拜託部長一下好另外這是我們那個那個應安手啊我要拜託你們你們在研究這些當然對交通有幫助"},{"start":5701.499,"end":5707.411,"text":"可是有一點你們那個老人家習慣也就是你們編列450萬去開發高齡道安學習軟體"},{"start":5714.653,"end":5737.7,"text":"我必須要提醒林所長你們不要動不動老人家只要超過70歲他怎麼會去運用這些少之又少依照年輕人20歲以下那當然用的是百分之百未來他們會用但是經過70歲他使用率只有百分之0.8"},{"start":5739.56,"end":5754.374,"text":"所以你花了這些錢去做這些適合嗎這第一個我要提醒喔你們編列預算是有編列這一筆還有另外我還要跟您所長你們不要動不動就是陸老師啦我上次跟部長建議過啦"},{"start":5755.535,"end":5759.557,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":5777.907,"end":5792.283,"text":"我們支持但是不要忘了這效果不好我必須要去提醒一下所以我也拜託雖然450萬並非很多但是你要恰到好處嘛你明明知道老人家根本不會上網"},{"start":5792.884,"end":5793.485,"text":"adequate to the"},{"start":5809.224,"end":5822.051,"text":"但是這個就成為是讓那個名字平高而讓會馬因為本來老人家不是用這種軟體陸老師成果不好那你們偏偏為什麼還要再編這個預算"},{"start":5823.574,"end":5841.241,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個有跟會收集國際的一些案例不是只有軟體事實上是搭配很重要的體驗活動那你編列預算要講清楚好不好你如果講不清楚被我砍掉你不要怪我啊"},{"start":5841.601,"end":5864.536,"text":"因為你自己講不清楚的啊我已經產生錯覺啊但是你們為什麼不講清楚所以這個部分要拜託部長可能要監督其實編列預算不要敷立法委員啦其實立法委員大家都很認真啦你寫出來怎麼樣我們就會聯想什麼那如果你沒有寫的我們也會把問題找出來所以要拜託"},{"start":5865.376,"end":5870.577,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":5892.346,"end":5895.929,"text":"謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳部長陳部長部長委員好部長有件事是你知不知道13號就是三天前那個賴清德總統他有回到台南"},{"start":5918.166,"end":5919.706,"text":"總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":5939.489,"end":5958.608,"text":"總統說國家會大力的支持台南的交通建設尤其在鐵路地下化還有立體化國家會支持讓台南的交通建設脫胎換骨總統特別提到現在台南的國際機場在疫後已經完全沒有國際線"},{"start":5960.305,"end":5986.24,"text":"那這一點我也希望交通部能夠支持是 這個我們要來努力爭取台南機場如果可以有國際線我相信很多台南鄉親都會比較方便我希望交通部能夠全力支持這一點另外剛提到了總統說國家會支持台南的鐵路立體化和地下化那現在地下化大概原台南市區以外再加上永康這個已經算定案"},{"start":5987.674,"end":6008.362,"text":"我今天要跟部長講的就是我們新式鐵路立體化他現在台南市政府把可行性的評估已經送布了希望交通部能夠儘速審查因為你知道新式吧南科之所在啦全世界最重要的半導體"},{"start":6009.582,"end":6036.819,"text":"高科技產品的生產基地就在新市南科結果交通進出還要停鐵路平交道這實在是非常的落伍那目前新市鐵路的立體化高架化的意思大概全長有4.6公里它可以消除現有的新市五個鐵路平交道從此新市就不會有鐵路平交道還有一個地下的寒凍"},{"start":6038.319,"end":6040.863,"text":"總經費大概142億3700萬跟交通部希望爭取到85億85.6億在前任的李孟岩部長的時候經費他已經有答應"},{"start":6053.345,"end":6075.999,"text":"重點是台南市政府也已經完成了可檢性研究現在就送到我們交通部來那我希望部裡面是不是能夠加速審查報告委員他的可檢性研究剛送到交通部那這個部分我們來加速因為我知道這個南科的發展速度相當的快那周圍的都市發展也很快這個部分我們來加速"},{"start":6076.653,"end":6078.834,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":6096.721,"end":6096.981,"text":"現在我們在"},{"start":6125.151,"end":6138.565,"text":"前幾年我有諮詢過交通部部裡面也提出了我請運燃所林記國所長就是第一個我們現在到底對車輛如何課稅我們的燃料稅"},{"start":6140.06,"end":6141.301,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。��"},{"start":6163.271,"end":6164.212,"text":" bicyclist"},{"start":6193.384,"end":6217.682,"text":"那這個研究報告這塊碼要下?跟委員報告一下,當時的研究我們比較了目前的隨車徵收、隨武徵收跟隨里程徵收。你花了700多萬,拿了一堆做理論報告。綜合的評估是目前現階段還是維持隨車。就是什麼都不要變。然後未來就是要看技術里程跟車重的這個技術的發展。可以看幾十年了啦,你不會變啦。"},{"start":6219.764,"end":6234.655,"text":"關了就說不要騙我,我才不會至少麻煩。你會提出說我需要改變,你不是至少麻煩,怎麼可能。所以就不會進步,就是這樣啦。那我再請教,現在電動車的數量增加嘛,它越增加的話,當然用油的車就減少嘛。"},{"start":6241.121,"end":6268.306,"text":"好那電動車到底會不會科徵道路使用費?什麼時候科徵?你要如何科徵?跟委員報告所以這也是為什麼當時綜合評估因為考慮到整個車輛的你回答我現在問你電動車電動車未來就是會參照因為現在還在政策鼓勵那未來等到他普及到一定的程度還是要隨車就是照照牌照稅的方式他會按照他的排氣量"},{"start":6268.806,"end":6277.232,"text":"bedingt review the information provided in this video."},{"start":6292.363,"end":6308.898,"text":"adequ?我瞌睡的時候我當然會用低馬力給你瞌嘛那我再調一下馬力就回來了我不知道但是你政策要對外說明要跟社會溝通現在因為很多電動車主他很惶恐"},{"start":6309.841,"end":6338.422,"text":"到底我會不會課稅那我要如何課稅我剛網路上有很多的影片很多人在估算有的也有算到一年可能要繳十幾萬的稅我不知道或七萬八萬的稅都很可怕你這樣會影響會不會影響電動車的銷售會不會影響造成現有車主的惶恐我不知道但一定會啦對不對"},{"start":6339.707,"end":6343.034,"text":"報告員目前的那個電動車的車輛數還沒有到達需要課稅的狀況所以應該還要一段時間那你要幾%才開始課?"},{"start":6349.727,"end":6365.081,"text":"我們有規劃幾百萬?目前目前就是說電動小客車的部分大概是將近這一個9萬輛那目前 幾百萬?暫爆白數幾百萬?600多萬輛它是這個將近這個9萬輛的話大概是一個1%多啦"},{"start":6372.087,"end":6394.803,"text":"目前數量並不多目前我們對於電動車科契纜費的一個規劃就是說原則上就是說到目前還沒有實質去影響到契纜費相關分配的一個部分所以我們要繼續免稅上次在教育會大概也有公文報告說目前預估的年期可能是在2030"},{"start":6396.277,"end":6400.479,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":6417.787,"end":6418.367,"text":"二、審查114年度"},{"start":6430.019,"end":6436.686,"text":"還有你要把那個名字改掉啦,你說電動車課徵棄燃稅你剛這麼講嘛,那電動車都沒吃氣,你要棄燃稅。這會讓很多車主造成誤解啦,這筆錢其實是所謂的,應該算道路養護費啦,使用者互惠是公平的。"},{"start":6450.379,"end":6452.36,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算．"},{"start":6474.108,"end":6478.55,"text":"台灣以後不管是汽油車電動車都是隨車徵收未來未來是部長大概台灣是獨一無二全世界很少隨車徵收因為這是很不公平而且這個是最落後的一種課程方式"},{"start":6501.98,"end":6530.392,"text":"因為你既然叫道路使用費,那我買車,你應該按照使用的量數啊,對不對?你買車如果不開勒,里程數低,一樣都繳同樣的稅。當然對你們來講課程最簡單啊,是不是這樣?你計算成本比較低嘛。目前是採一個平均的概念啊,確實有些人是沒有用的這樣。哪有什麼平均概念?這個以前就搞這一套搞下來,到現在啦。"},{"start":6531.8,"end":6532.1,"text":"接下來有請陳樹葉召委發言。"},{"start":6564.466,"end":6568.187,"text":"好,謝謝主席。請主席邀請陳部長。好,交通部陳部長。部長,早安。今天委員會是針對運安會、運營所以及鐵道局的相關預算巡導。那本席在這邊也再次的來關心一下目前這個彰化市的鐵路高架的一個確定的一個進度,是不是可以簡單說明一下?"},{"start":6595.055,"end":6609.675,"text":"報告委員就如您目前所列目前是已經進入這個細部規劃的部分已經在細部規劃那世西工程公司也已經針對這個所有的細節已經在做評估了"},{"start":6610.556,"end":6628.319,"text":"所以就是之前就是說有關這個基檢段的這個位置遲遲沒有辦法確定現在都已經這些都已經確定了跟彰化縣政府也都達成共識了是那以目前這樣子的一個進度我們預計什麼時候可以有動工的這樣子的一個"},{"start":6629.678,"end":6654.159,"text":"我是不是請局長,好不好?跟我們報告,因為現在方案確定之後,我們還要完成相關的規劃作業跟環評。估計規劃作業還需要一年,然後環評的話呢,要看環評的程序通常會要超過一年半左右。所以等到中規合定,估計在115年,那或者是114年底有機會合定,那才會進到設計跟施工。"},{"start":6655.905,"end":6656.749,"text":"是114年還是115年?中規核定。"},{"start":6660.374,"end":6684.999,"text":"我們現在判斷是要到115。應該要到115年。所以還要再好幾年的時間。好,那這個部分我們希望就是說中央該負責的這個程序我們就是要加緊這個行政的效率不要老是被地方政府甩鍋說是我們在就是延擋這個程序。那再來就是說有關這個經費負擔的部分因為"},{"start":6688.078,"end":6702.912,"text":"相信也都滿關心的,因為也看到之前這個工程會主委他有拋出說這個依然鐵路高架的這個地方負擔可以下降,那在就這個部分我們彰化縣的這個負擔的部分有可能再下降嗎?"},{"start":6703.983,"end":6726.944,"text":"報告委員這是都是固定比例啦依每一個縣市他的這個財政的狀況我們都是固定比例不管是桃園或者是台南或者高雄其實都是固定比例在處理那另外還有一個方案就是說專案協商的部分有些縣市有些比較特殊的狀況可能要透過行政院那邊做專案協商的方式才會做改變那對交通部的立場來講我們其實都是固定比例"},{"start":6727.911,"end":6745.883,"text":"所以就是全國一致性就是不會說有例外就是說別的縣是可以那彰化縣除非的例外就是說有提出專案協商在這個行政院的部分進行專案協商才有可能會稍微做改變那不然我們就是照固定比例在走"},{"start":6746.323,"end":6766.288,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6766.288,"end":6768.669,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":6790.638,"end":6810.287,"text":"受限於台中市的進度是嗎?其實應該是說他整體的這個規劃的過程當中章化縣政府要趕快提供那個落站點提供落站點其實他整體的這個規劃就有辦法把它規劃進去那目前因為整個章東的這個都市計畫目前還沒有完全定案所以這個部分可能有些延宕"},{"start":6812.055,"end":6828.554,"text":"如果說彰化縣政府對於這個落站點目前是規劃兩個站嗎?是不是?是兩個站。新增兩個站。那如果說他這兩個落站點一直沒有辦法解決,這樣子是不是也會等於是去延到到台中市的一個捷運的一個進度?"},{"start":6829.379,"end":6849.525,"text":"確實台中市那邊也有在反映這件事就是說他們希望說有沒有可能還是就是彰化之後切開處理就是台中市的部分先走不然他們也擔心說台中市的部分會去做到延宕的狀況是不是應該要一起做會比較好這樣進度才會一致"},{"start":6852.304,"end":6880.055,"text":"以建設來說要合併在一起建設會比較好不過因為彰化的這個彰東的這個都市計畫的問題那這個一直拖著確實是一直拖著是因為彰化市就是除了鐵路高交之外就是這個捷運綠線延伸到彰化市也涉及到整個彰化市東區都市計畫的一個開發那如果說這個建設沒有給地方有那個"},{"start":6880.755,"end":6883.338,"text":"adequate to the current situation."},{"start":6902.637,"end":6904.618,"text":" bicyclie Lee, Chief Executive"},{"start":6919.986,"end":6943.509,"text":" bicyclia 呃這個分配的話了哈那在台中綠線的部分中央也要整個跟台中一起的話也要補助到182億多這麼龐大的一個經費未來如果說才化法通過之後我們中央的建設經費短少了那這些計劃還做得下去嗎"},{"start":6945.058,"end":6969.773,"text":"報告委員要看中央的整體的財務的狀況對於地方的補助如果中央沒錢那當然對地方補助的比例或許就要重新再來談是重新來談就是我們中央都沒錢了那我原本要對啊我們原本要負擔的這個幾百億的這個錢我們還有這個能力去負擔這樣高額的一個比例的經費嗎"},{"start":6971.472,"end":6987.497,"text":"是不曉得最後結論是怎麼樣啦會擔心說如果到時候我們該補助給地方的這個經費確實因為財化法的這個重新的估算那讓我們的預算也減少了那預算減少其實我們能夠支出的當然也就必然就少了"},{"start":6987.697,"end":7002.035,"text":"就是這個軌道計劃建設啊就是最後還是會我們中央去發包執行嘛對不對因為這是涉及到專業工程專業的一個部分捷運的部分是地方捷運計劃如果是高價化或立體化是中央"},{"start":7002.614,"end":7003.134,"text":"adequate to"},{"start":7023.444,"end":7024.445,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":7052.02,"end":7052.66,"text":" bicylce"},{"start":7080.156,"end":7084.478,"text":"好,謝謝陳樹葉召委。接下來有請蔡奇章委員發言。謝謝主席。先請交通部陳部長跟林所長。好,林替國所長。"},{"start":7111.571,"end":7120.159,"text":"部長早、所長早這個今天本席就叫幾個問題第一個就是我們那個ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統"},{"start":7123.144,"end":7150.703,"text":"所長執行的成果怎麼樣過去在國道上面執行嗎是跟委員報告一下我們前兩年在國道執行當然就是幫業者去開發出來一個所謂的一個分析的一個平台工具也就是說後續他們業者可以直接就是利用ADAS還有這個一些行車影像的資料直接就可以去找出到底他所寫的哪些駕駛員他在什麼樣的一些"},{"start":7151.463,"end":7175.591,"text":"道路的一個情況之下比較會有一些不適當的駕駛行為那可以作為教育訓練的一個工具那進度上面我們實際在運用了嗎?國道的客運業者國道客運我們那個114年度我們準備就是要實際找一家業者來輔導他們來移轉給他們做使用好所以國道你要從國道跟市區道路是同時做還是分開做?"},{"start":7175.871,"end":7177.533,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":7193.893,"end":7215.644,"text":"你先會讓他們熟悉嘛然後也讓AI辨識度data多了他的辨識精準度就高嘛那實際在運用上面你覺得時間時程會落在什麼時候我想明年我們實際就是會找業者來做這一個示範嘛到時候就可以從這個過程當中我知道示範我知道但你覺得這個"},{"start":7217.106,"end":7224.566,"text":"這樣的系統普遍的運用在國道的客運跟市區的公車上面時間大概還要多久?"},{"start":7225.32,"end":7249.849,"text":"我預估大概三到五年十成盡量掌握啦如果這是一個有用的技術因為我們都知道這個系統裝上去如果成效好的話事實上對於國道客運特別在市區啦你看市區很多的這種車禍對行人公車去撞到行人等等"},{"start":7250.729,"end":7271.422,"text":"如果這個系統你們經過測試、教育訓練都可以成功,那未來勢必對於行人受到公車、大型巴士傷害的機率就下降。人民關天啦,這有好的事情,要早一點做、快一點做。我們加速。對,這都講實際的啦,除了有的,我聽都覺得..."},{"start":7274.563,"end":7291.647,"text":"但是這次馬上可以立即改善我們很多你看這種石橋啦公車在開在過程裡面司機沒有去注意到科技的發展協助這個公車的駕駛讓保障行人的安全這個很重要好不好首長114年度這預算要趕快去執行怎麼去縮短"},{"start":7296.788,"end":7296.908,"text":"總議長請回,請我們主委。"},{"start":7316.65,"end":7332.893,"text":"各位有關那個運安會我想多次我們在我辦公室我們有協調過有了解過那我其實有些數據趁著今天部長也在這個運安會第一個在事故調查暫期暫期率高達"},{"start":7334.261,"end":7346.941,"text":"高達65%這個很多的研究都顯示這個時間過長這個我也曾經跟你就教過那你也跟我提出包括這個運安會人力不足啦等等的問題你們要"},{"start":7349.622,"end":7374.648,"text":"不是像其他單位不是說其他單位隨便調查意思是說運安會非常認真調查所以你覺得時程都會久但是這個數字看起來並不好看你看這個運安會運輸事故調查的暫期情形你看這個暫期的比率從航空的23水路的76道路的63公路的13然後合計平均大概65這時間大家感覺很長所以那個"},{"start":7380.063,"end":7404.391,"text":"主委,這個有沒有可能可以縮短的這種可能性存在嗎?各位報告齁,這個展期率的統計它是從一開始成立的時候,它就算一直算到去年底。對,沒錯。那,因為我們這個院會成立的時候有三個主要因素是這樣子。我們成立的時候是要用人嘛,招考人來。"},{"start":7405.171,"end":7420.301,"text":"但是它並沒有籌備的階段。我知道,人不夠啦。我知道啦。直接就開始了啦。對,然後又要招待人,又要訓練,又要調查。對,沒錯。所以這個展示電話公司勾紮,譬如說...除了我這樣簡單講啦,原來就是說..."},{"start":7422.643,"end":7425.985,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":7451.459,"end":7452.48,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於"},{"start":7475.277,"end":7475.637,"text":"第三個問題呢這個齁"},{"start":7502.608,"end":7513.872,"text":"我們提的因為運安會的調查報告結果就是要求行政單位來改善那我看一下這個要求要改善建立的事項在所謂分項執行計畫列管情形這個列管比例"},{"start":7521.724,"end":7538.674,"text":"這個列管比例都還有20幾%、10幾%甚至列管年限還有三年以上的一個事情要列管三年像我不知道三年以上哪一個案子像航空三年以上的就有五件嘛鐵道就有九件"},{"start":7540.258,"end":7555.203,"text":"都是列管三年以上,那個部長也在這裡,你要不要跟部長講一下,為什麼會列管這麼久,是你列管的有問題還是交通部執行的有問題,就是死不改嘛,所以你一直列管嘛,到底是什麼問題,你倆都站在這裡做一件事比較快。"},{"start":7557.003,"end":7582.017,"text":"因為那個完成率的這個數字的顯示最主要被幾個大數字拉下,譬如說,譬如說高雄機場他的那個跑法道的安全區他要改善,他要編列預算要編好幾年。譬如說台中機場那個區前干擾也是一樣,他跑法道需求檢查要改善的話,國防部編預算也是編了很多年,他就掛在那邊。好OK,你如果說他就在做了,"},{"start":7582.737,"end":7606.295,"text":"它已經在執行了,預算也照年度編列了。你們這個列管的方法要不要調整一下。這很難看嘛,這個事情一直在列管,三年以上還在列管。三年以上列管,如果你沒有告訴我,我認為他就是不做。三年都不做。那第二種解釋方式是,不對,他已經在做了,他已經做三年了,但還沒有做完,所以我還在列管。"},{"start":7607.813,"end":7626.385,"text":"對,委員你講的是重點,確實沒有錯。我們在行政院開會的時候,我們也跟政委報告說,譬如說台鐵,他已經有編了預算,那我們也看得到他的進入往前在走,那我們就會建議說這個就不要列關了。可是,像剛剛講的臺中青年康國防部編預算、棉香井高雄機場編預算、埋土地"},{"start":7627.125,"end":7629.386,"text":"單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":7650.171,"end":7674.728,"text":"我持續關注你的進度你沒有我就把你放到列管你沒有按照你的進度走我就回到列管但你只要按照進度走我應該是另外一種列管方式這樣我們立委在監督齁才不會每天看到這種看到這種三年以上我都會覺得懷疑是現在是怎樣交通部沒要理他就對了完全不鳥你運安會嗎不是嘛所以你要讓我們知道什麼事情他不鳥你的"},{"start":7675.208,"end":7700.836,"text":"那我們該冤有頭再有主就要該怎麼監督那有一些是人家已經只著手在進行案子他就一定要做5年那你簡單講明年還有那個列管4年的因為他要做5年嘛我的意思是這樣你懂我意思嗎我們來檢討一個其實如果他進行中看得見了你應該有另外一種追蹤列管的方法而不是通通統合在一個好像都沒有做的那種列管裡面"},{"start":7701.636,"end":7701.656,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":7733.301,"end":7741.968,"text":"好,謝謝蔡委員。做一下宣告。單位發言到何新淳委員發言完畢之後,休息10分鐘。有請游浩委員發言。謝謝召委。那有請部長。好,陳部長。"},{"start":7771.288,"end":7796.162,"text":"還是要特別肯定一下部長因為今天原本列席的話出席的話是主委嘛那您特別出席還是要特別肯定一下部長那部長延續剛才像蔡啟昌委員以及許多委員所提到在運安會其實大家一直以來都在提到的就是每次的調查的時間不管是人力的關係預算的關係或者是相關議題的複雜程度"},{"start":7798.283,"end":7826.041,"text":"但是您在看大約運安會的報告大約產出的這個調查過程大概都要抓到多少時間之內才會出爐?您先抓一個概念上應該要對多少時間內才能夠出爐才能夠符合社會大眾的期待我覺得一些時間應該要三到六個月三到六個月內應該要讓社會社會大眾就知道嘛那我跟部長也說明一下"},{"start":7827.362,"end":7855.581,"text":"議員會的報告通常因為這個人力跟複雜的程度我記得上次4月20號本席諮詢的時候那主委是提到差不多每個案子幾乎是1.6到1.7個人力在負責一個案子所以幾乎每個案子就是還沒展延幾乎都要1到2年還有時候展延甚至到3年所以說剛才像蔡吉參委所提到的那這個部分就是大家希望議員會如何能夠精進那我就接著再請主委一起上台好了"},{"start":7861.109,"end":7874.86,"text":"主委剛才部長也有提到期許就是說三到六個月的話能夠來完成這個調查報告通常較符合社會的期待那本席在4月20號那時候質詢的時候也有提"},{"start":7876.321,"end":7903.784,"text":"原額不足那要如何來去爭取原額那在約聘的專業人才還怎麼樣能夠來去增加那時候本席有到這樣講一下運輸安全調查委員會目前在這一次的預算書的報告徵務人員5人編制人員15人技工1人約聘人員70人共92人在這一次的預算書跟去年的預算書原額跟總共的人數是差不多的所以表示說在去年再到今年以及到明年的部分"},{"start":7904.304,"end":7931.459,"text":"其實在這個調查的能力上依舊是能力不足的一個狀況那本期在上次所質詢的時候有提到他也希望主委能夠體諒這個運安會大家同仁的一個辛苦那來跟行政院或是跟部內來如何協調能夠增加這個人員的預算那我想請問一下主委在這個過程中這半年來講還有沒有就是開口跟哪一個官員或是跟院長提到這個能力需求"},{"start":7932.406,"end":7940.43,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":7957.077,"end":7969.337,"text":"有預計在明年會怎麼樣的方式來增加嗎?目前我們還沒有得到答案。沒有得到答案。那你是什麼時候問的?我們不知道答案。你上次跟人事監事總署開口提的時候是大概在幾月的時候?"},{"start":7971.518,"end":7995.445,"text":"包括ful委員有關我們太空人力的部分我們其實在我們的113年的原理評鑑裡面有有已經有提到規範人力是我們幾月提的今年3月份的報告今年3月份的報告那我4月22號質詢的時候也有提到希望能夠表達那在規範的過程中有沒有在任何書面或口頭的方式提到需要增加人力"},{"start":7997.609,"end":8024.26,"text":"我們目前就是就是永遠評鑑的部分對那所以說嘛我坦白講就是說如果沒有辦法去積極的去反映這件事情的話那運安會永遠都會處於一個就是調查人力不足的一個情況那所以說今天部長也在那卓也在我希望說不管是之前的委員有提到這個事情那我相信等一下有其他委員也一樣會提到同樣的事那所以本期還是希望說"},{"start":8025.14,"end":8046.171,"text":"在這個第二會期再次也檢討跟就是希望運安會能夠針對人力調查能力的部分來去做一個實際上積極的爭取那我覺得這才能夠去改善這個運安會能力不足在處理這個調查報告無法能夠縮短期程才符合社會期待那同樣的我們再看一下這個數據"},{"start":8048.499,"end":8064.73,"text":"我們看到了運安會的數據啊這個在相關揭露的部分我們看到了在這個執行率啊還跟他的達成率啊他是用從108年到現在的一個部分來去做一個完成率那其中來講"},{"start":8066.723,"end":8093.144,"text":"議員會主委您是航空背景那我們看到航空背景的這個完成率其實確實比較高但是在水路、鐵路還包括陸路的這個部分它的完成率確實偏低那在這個立案調查數量以及包括在歷年改善完成率的部分那本席還是要再次強調這個完成率的部分是過於美化因為它的完成數是108年到現在的總數"},{"start":8095.586,"end":8110.101,"text":"那如果說再把這個當年度新立的案子再把它看當年度能否完成或是再把它抓成兩年之內能否完成的話那它的數字絕對不會像還九十幾、七十幾、八十幾還的這種數字"},{"start":8111.983,"end":8127.733,"text":"所以說在這個數字上本席還是要建議那把能力跟研究調查的能量能夠擴大才能夠真正讓運安會來產生實際的功能不然的話那過去的完成數從108年到現在的這個總數來看"},{"start":8131.455,"end":8157.923,"text":"兩年前、三年前立的案子現在好不容易結案但是在今年、去年立的案子都沒有辦法完成的時候這是美化的完成率啊所以本席還是要建議未來這樣子的一個改善數據應該依當年度或兩年度也同樣來去做一個解釋才能讓大家看到運安會對於兩年內、一年內立的案子還有他的一個積極處理程度當然本席在這裡提到這個部分也是老調重談啦"},{"start":8158.723,"end":8182.475,"text":"因為在很多的委員其實都常在提到如果能夠來改善運安會這個調查能力跟能量的事情但是我本期還在這裡還是要建議預算在審每個委員都在審預算那當然要會主委你也很認真的也第一時間在這個會期也帶了同仁來這邊溝通預算但是要解決委員在委員會所提到的問題"},{"start":8183.556,"end":8191.021,"text":"那如何能夠讓運輸安全調查委員會的功能能夠去精進?我相信這才是我們在審查預算希望集團單位能夠改進的本質。"},{"start":8191.906,"end":8214.844,"text":"那最後的話在這個交通部的業務報告有提到推動智慧運輸及交通產業發展在這個自駕車策略委員會的部分那在我們也看到在今年來也有許多自駕車的一個事故甚至火燒車那想接到主委那這個自駕車的這個相關的事故的調查的案子在今年度總共幾案?"},{"start":8217.381,"end":8237.38,"text":"自駕車我們最典型的就是戴雅路段那個撞房撞車那目前來講這樣子的報告對於目前所提那個之前所召開的自駕車策略委員會還開了巴士會那運安會的報告有沒有提供給自駕車策略委員會來去做參考"},{"start":8239.058,"end":8241.239,"text":"這個是沒有,因為我們都是公布在官網。"},{"start":8268.557,"end":8269.257,"text":"接下來有請何欣淳委員發言陳部長"},{"start":8302.774,"end":8314.245,"text":"部長好,早安。在我諮詢之前告訴你一個消息,不知道你有沒有手上及時知道。本來這個禮拜三要停靠台中港的挪威奉勁號郵輪,不來了。"},{"start":8320.194,"end":8333.372,"text":"這早上一早的收到訊息喔身為台中人我們一直在積極的在推動這個郵輪的一個商機那郵輪的觀光是可以讓台中港活絡那"},{"start":8334.073,"end":8356.289,"text":"好不容易好不容易破蛋了啦今年終於在12月有一艘郵輪要進來結果聽說是氣候的因素我不曉得這個等一下你會後可以再去詢問一下再去了解一下我們還是希望說台中港在交通部的努力之下跟地方政府的積極配合之下還是希望期待"},{"start":8357.19,"end":8359.891,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":8384.676,"end":8408.283,"text":"那他們呢這兩條線喔事實上對台中的捷運網來講非常重要剛剛蘇越委有提到了綠線綠線現在要延伸到大坑那往南要延伸到彰化那我們都積極而且全力支持喔那只是說這個整個不管是綠線、藍線、橘線喔我們的一個網絡要建立它的轉程"},{"start":8408.923,"end":8431.045,"text":"限與限之間的轉乘必須要方便那才能夠達到它最大的一個效益那也能夠方便我們不管是國內外的旅客還有我們自己的市民轉乘但是現在在台中火車站我們上次我相信我們局長知道我在交通委員會有諮詢然後我們有去考察"},{"start":8431.826,"end":8444.196,"text":"那現在藍線橘線的這個轉乘的距離上次考察局長有跟我們說了幾個方案那目前你知道臺中市政府的規劃進度為何請局長"},{"start":8448.383,"end":8462.877,"text":"跟委員報告就局限的可行性研究市政府在上個月22號已經把這個可言報告修正送到交通部這邊來我們最近已經簽報給部裡面打算就是建議部裡面召開審查委員會來做後續的確認"},{"start":8466.34,"end":8469.443,"text":"當初審查委員會的意見會在中規的時候來做最後的確認。那我們是在臺中在附近...到中規還要多久的時間?"},{"start":8484.237,"end":8498.267,"text":"可言合定之後進行中規應該通常要一年到兩年左右的時間。我們希望當然地方政府要努力我們也希望中央審查的速度可不可以再加快一點我們等很久了好不好"},{"start":8499.728,"end":8517.567,"text":"接下來我就要問喔那如果說已經有進度那也有相關的在談論這個轉成的設計要更方便創造旅客捷運台鐵都能夠三引喔我現在有一個實體的這個照片就是現在預留為轉運站的一個土地嘛那還有"},{"start":8518.588,"end":8530.217,"text":"檯鐵的開發案也是在這裡嘛那另外這一個地圖呢就是當初我們手上看到台中市政府給我們的一個圖示表那我們現在到底是要增設還是共購我想要把這個藍線橘線的轉成過去的規劃是長達380公尺的一個"},{"start":8538.223,"end":8540.283,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":8564.495,"end":8592.907,"text":"跟委員報告我們有建議臺中市政府就是未來應該是要朝向增設共購的方向來做努力也就是原來的歐16站仍然保留那在靠近臺中火車站這個地方增加一個車站那如果有機會的話可以跟臺鐵的這個開發的這個用地來做共購那這樣子的話等於是對於上面未來的開發跟下面的這個轉乘跟交通都是互謀其利的"},{"start":8592.927,"end":8593.847,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":8620.556,"end":8641.318,"text":"除了藍線,藍線現在台中要拚動工明年要動工那現在我的個人看法藍線事實上現在只做半套啦另外一個延伸線如果能夠一起做的話還叫做做整套的啦因為現在的藍線是從海線延伸到甘城而已那對不起從海線到甘城"},{"start":8641.778,"end":8669.513,"text":" bicyn 若果我要從甘城我要延伸進去屯區那現行我知道台中市政府規劃進太平那進太平呢太平是一個新興的一個都會型的一個行政區域那已經超過20萬人口所以呢我相信如果延伸進來太平的話可以讓可以讓什麼這一個藍線的一個未來的營運絕對會是有正面強大的效益所以呢我希望"},{"start":8670.453,"end":8692.772,"text":"台中市政府是不是已經把南線延伸太平的這一個可行性已經交通部這邊在審查了嗎?已經在交通部了。已經在交通部了嘛對不對。那交通部部長支持一定要支持那審查快一點。那審查的速度就是趙委員所說的加速來審查。是我希望我們建議我們期待那"},{"start":8693.473,"end":8695.955,"text":"單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":8713.249,"end":8732.206,"text":"adequang 動工沒關係雖然有時間差但是呢我們可以並案處理我覺得這是一個態度而且是一個有效率的一個處理方式嗎可以嗎部長我們覺得可以並案處理如果兩岸可以並案處理即便是南線的前期已經先開工我們太平的這一段在後期跟上其實是可以的"},{"start":8732.912,"end":8733.112,"text":"當然你是支持阿!"},{"start":8747.932,"end":8770.673,"text":"支持並案處理。並案處理之後我們可以無縫接軌合併施工施工他是可以我知道你們都是專家捷運的施工是可以分標分包然後是可以不同的時間點希望呢能夠陸陸續續的動工動工完之後呢未來呢通車也是可以階段性我們希望就是一次能夠做到好啦"},{"start":8771.554,"end":8790.141,"text":"這沒有問題嘛好不好部長因為我相信大台中的捷運網路需要部長你大力的支持綠線、藍線、橘線還有呢大屏幕的紫線那都是呢剛好都是在大台中的一個人口非常稠密的一個都會型的行政區域裡面"},{"start":8791.201,"end":8792.382,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":8830.837,"end":8840.827,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。"},{"start":9462.349,"end":9480.202,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來有請徐富奎委員發言。謝謝主席,我們有請交通部陳部長,鐵道局楊局長。好,楊局長,鐵道局。"},{"start":9490.908,"end":9507.096,"text":"部長好局長早部長我想再過半個月我們2024就要接近就結束我們即將迎接2025那請教部長對於品農團來講他們期待2025年的一個新年禮物部長知道是什麼嗎?"},{"start":9508.737,"end":9533.686,"text":"請委員指示我想我們就是希望聽到高鐵南延的好消息啦是是是對但是這個消息我想部長這個最近在委員會本席也一直在期待部長趕快給我們這個好消息那距離這個半個月也快到了部長這個好消息會實現嗎報告委員其實高鐵南延屏東這個是國家的政策這個早就定案"},{"start":9534.686,"end":9557.567,"text":"所以這個禮物其實屏東人應該已經拿到了這個沒有問題那現在的問題是在於說我們整個工程的過程當中我們的規劃是要走左營岸也就是高屏二塊這條路線或者要走高雄岸也就是高雄火車站的這條路線這兩岸我們要擇一岸是這個部分在年底之前我們會確定但是延伸到高雄這個是已經確定這是國家政策"},{"start":9557.887,"end":9584.702,"text":"部長那請教一下我們目前的說明會全部都辦完了嗎?報告委員我們總共有四場的地方說明會已經辦完了那另外還有就是賴委員也有辦了一場那就是第五場的地方說明會那另外我們還有專家學者的這個說明會有兩場那這個部分已經先完成了那部長自己參加跟局長參加完之後覺得到底我們的部分會傾向是高雄案還是左營案?"},{"start":9586.287,"end":9604.705,"text":"報告委員目前聽起來對於高雄的鄉親跟地方的民意代表應該是有一些地方發展的期待希望說如果走高雄案對於整體的這個高雄市區裡面或者是比較南高雄的部分的未來的發展可能會有一些幫助"},{"start":9605.805,"end":9624.598,"text":"但是我想包含本席跟我們很多鄉親憂慮的是因為目前我們高雄案原本要開挖的面積有3.34公里5.82公頃長度大概有3.34公里這麼長那我們目前有稍微做一個縮減到2.04公里跟面積把它降低到309公頃"},{"start":9626.119,"end":9645.552,"text":"但是這樣子的用地徵收跟所謂的一個溝通的過程會不會在訂案之後又要花很多時間在處理這些所謂的一個行政用地的程序?報告委員我當然知道屏東的鄉親是希望能夠速度快一點所以第一我們在規劃的過程當中我們盡量需要徵收的面積會盡量減少"},{"start":9646.753,"end":9675.038,"text":"那需要拆遷的戶數也會盡量減少就是盡量不要影響到民眾的這個住的權益盡量不要影響到民眾一般生活的這個生活模式盡量不影響那我們在綠園道的部分不影響的面積也達到95%也就是說會影響只有5%那我相信把影響降到最低那我們跟高雄市政府這邊也會密切來溝通密切來配合例如說未來如果要朝都更的方向那我相信地方上面的主力就會"},{"start":9675.478,"end":9675.698,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":9675.698,"end":9696.698,"text":"降低更多,如果可以做都更的話,我相信許多民眾都會蠻支持啦。對,這裡還是要拜託部長,部長我想你也當過民意代表,你也在行政院服務過,影響百姓就會造成很多的後續很多問題的產生。沒錯沒錯,我們希望影響降到最低。那當然我們也希望你們在規劃的過程同時應該要去處理用力的問題,一定要同步去進行啦。會會會。"},{"start":9698.74,"end":9721.606,"text":" tatto好消息之後結果又要等到五年十年之後再動工。這個不是我們所樂見的。是我們會同步來進行也會跟地方政府也就是高雄市政府密切來配合。好那也要跟屏東縣政府也要來好好的來溝通。當然是。那另外就是上次本席有請教過部長就是針對台鐵六快速車站預計吸引2.6公里跟我們高鐵共購有這個規劃案嗎?"},{"start":9723.464,"end":9750.636,"text":"那目前但是我們在目前我們交通部跟鐵道局的預算裡面並沒有看到這樣的一個相關的經費那請教部長這個明年會不會動工是報告委員這個部分我們明年會先簽一個計畫給行政院讓行政院這邊來核定希望明年也可以來動工好不好我們明年先把計畫先送到行政院由行政院來核定之後我們就會來加速動工好"},{"start":9751.107,"end":9771.797,"text":"那除了這個高鐵的問題之外我想我還是要幫我們屏東的鄉親來請命這部分本席也一直在跟我們的鐵道局一直在溝通那個照片顯示部長我們的屏東的車站有很多好幾個車站目前還是所謂的一個平面式的車站"},{"start":9772.918,"end":9795.494,"text":"那即使我們現在有一部分包含訪寮大平台計畫都要整個拉高之後但是還是有很多車站面臨所謂的一個交通事故跟一個淹水的一個問題還是還是要強調我們一定要爭取所謂的一個全線高價化的一個計畫這部分還是要請部長跟局長多幫忙那部長這邊有沒有什麼規劃的想法"},{"start":9795.934,"end":9823.893,"text":"報告委員其實我覺得這一段大家要思考的是在極端氣候之後您這個照片看得出來就是說有時候只要下大雨或是颱風來那一段的軌道可能就會被淹沒這個部分對軌道的運行來講是危險的那所以我們其實整個高價化除了經濟效益之外也要再思考就是極端氣候之後那這個軌道的這個韌性跟整體交通的韌性那這個部分交通部跟鐵道局會來做整體的規劃跟評估"},{"start":9825.236,"end":9841.399,"text":"因為對平東鄉親來講我們長期碰到就是所謂的一個火車因為我們現在火車的頻率很高經過的頻率很高那行駛過程裡面就常常碰到所謂的一個平交道的阻擋甚至這個事故有時候事故的造成"},{"start":9841.8,"end":9842.361,"text":" bicyC.是是是"},{"start":9861.192,"end":9874.921,"text":"另外針對我們平南關公鐵道的部分請教一下部長我們今年3月20重啟可行性評估之後11月已經提出期中報告目前的研議方向是不是可以一個正面的答覆?"},{"start":9876.613,"end":9894.074,"text":"這個部分我是不是請局長好不好?請局長回答。各位報告,這個現在我們相關的作業都非常的順利。所以這個規劃我們未來會再跟屏東縣政府這邊就路線還有這個車站的設置等等進行進一步的這個溝通。預計明年就可以完成這個可行性研究。"},{"start":9895.175,"end":9923.155,"text":"對,因為我想部長也跟局長也常常到墾丁去啦哈這幾年墾丁確實是面臨一個觀光的一個瓶頸那我想有一個新的一個交通的一個刺激然後加上我們未來一些新的景點的開發確實我覺得對整個觀光旅遊業有很大的注意但是我們很擔心這樣一個評估的一個速度太慢甚至我們這個施工的期程會拉得太長那部長針對這部分有沒有信心可以來完成盡快來完成這個案子"},{"start":9924.59,"end":9951.493,"text":"報告委員這個可行性研究的部分我們盡量來協助就是說看速度可不可以再加快一點明年年中看可不可以趕快做出來另外一個就是對我們野海鄉鎮最關心的就是我們的高雄捷運的一個小港陵園到東港陵邊這條路線目前高雄端已經開工了預計在119年完工通車但是屏東這邊似乎還沒有聽到"},{"start":9952.824,"end":9968.166,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":9968.757,"end":9997.319,"text":"是 這個部分我們也來跟高雄市政府也來協助因為我知道我們的選址車站選址這些都已經路線都已經確定了嘛對對對現在應該只有剩下林園石化縣的這一段那這部分我想應該要趕快去溝通啦好就查這個單位應該是我們加快的啟程啦好 這個我們來加速好 那就所有我們屏東的交通建設真的要希望部長跟局長多多的支持好 我們一起努力我們要實踐賴總統的區域均衡發展交通建設絕對是一個很重要的一個要件啦好 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10002.449,"end":10021.945,"text":"好謝謝許委員接下來有請廖先祥委員發言好謝謝主席麻煩我們的陳部長陳部長"},{"start":10031.428,"end":10031.488,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10048.797,"end":10049.417,"text":" bicyclist 姜濤"},{"start":10075.643,"end":10100.975,"text":"我上禮拜有跟部長說明一下我本身是開電動車所以我對於這種新人員在運輸載具的使用上面有一些我的一些想法啦那其實過去很長一段時間不只這一艘貨輪還有其他的貨輪等等的都會發生一些擱淺漏油等等的事件但我沒想過其實我們現在在運輸轉型的方面有兩大的方向一個是電動"},{"start":10101.835,"end":10101.935,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":10122.042,"end":10123.783,"text":" bicy、林信得列席報告議員"},{"start":10146.542,"end":10175.318,"text":"關於交通力方面,雖然青人的人員轉換率是比電能差一點,但是它的交通力,同樣大概一個規模的交通力,就像輕車可以比電動車開更遠,那一樣的輕船也可以比電動船開得更遠。我不曉得我們對於,因為我們有航港的一些作業等等,那可能還有更大的一個方針是國家的經濟部的一個方針。那我們有沒有思考過,因為我們有很多的航港的單位,包括港務公司等等,也都是航空部下轄,"},{"start":10176.198,"end":10180.879,"text":"報告委員在交通部的部分因為未來的整體的交通運輸的減碳跟永續其實是個很重要的議題那這個部分我們其實也都在理解並且在希望能夠推動那不過這個部分要看"},{"start":10203.306,"end":10226.661,"text":"整個國際例如說以輪船來講的話國際上大家希望用什麼樣子的新燃料就是未來比較減碳比較永續的一個燃料是什麼那交通部這邊在航港的部分就是用全力配合例如說如果是委員剛剛所提到的如果未來的趨勢是走向加輕輕氣的這個船的話那我們的整個港埠設施就必須要有加輕氣的這個設施必須要建構"},{"start":10229.343,"end":10231.604,"text":"單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":10257.217,"end":10278.366,"text":"一級單位也要去做分工我們剛才我們港務公司等等或是港港局要去做的一些配套也都要起草做準備啦那另外再請教一下這個跟這個運輸運安會可能有點關係啦過去幾年啦大家其實常常有在討論就有一件事情會變形有一題就是說特斯拉的輔助駕駛"},{"start":10279.286,"end":10299.057,"text":"那他可能在高速公路上面發生追撞的事故比較高,那我不曉得這件事情在最近這段時間有沒有來做相對應的降低?降低啊?數據上,其實特斯拉我們很像...不只特斯拉,應該是所有的電動車有輔助駕駛的,這方面有沒有降低比較多?"},{"start":10299.605,"end":10319.003,"text":"跟委員報告一下目前大概就是說之前大家比較關注的可能有一些這個車輛駕駛開這個駕駛輔助系統去撞到高速公路的這個工程這個防撞車的這個部分是那這個這個部分我們大概有做一個最終的部分大概第一個有開輔助駕駛跟沒有開輔助駕駛大概就一半一半"},{"start":10319.683,"end":10347.37,"text":"另外有開輔助駕駛的部分其實那個廠牌也沒有見到所謂的這個集中性大概其實大概我們大概也知道說其實目前大概就是說Level 1、Level 2在其他這個各廠牌大概是一個蠻標準的一個這個配配那目前從統計數字上面看到的這個部分的話是沒有講說沒有是沒有看到特別集中在哪一個廠牌的那事故率有沒有降低或者是"},{"start":10348.59,"end":10369.581,"text":"大家可能最近比較少聽到這個就是車輛在去撞這個工程防撞車有關於這個輔助駕駛的部分其實部裡面跟這個高音局一直在做宣導那另外在這個車輛安全審驗端的部分也做了一些相關的加強比如說車主所測裡面一定要把這些輔助駕駛的東西寫得特別這個重點"},{"start":10370.782,"end":10371.763,"text":" bicyclist﹑sir﹑sir﹑sir﹑sir﹑"},{"start":10387.105,"end":10407.939,"text":"那另外在這個高雄警那個部分的話也請他們去加強就是說後面工程黃狀車一些相當交為這個部分的一個這個其實我想提這個當然是最近他這也是一個新聞議題那好像過去會給大家的一個認知輔助駕駛或者是自動駕駛可能會有比較高的一個事故率那撇開追撞工程車這件事情我們有沒有做過相關的統計我們"},{"start":10410.14,"end":10410.84,"text":" bicyclist"},{"start":10429.141,"end":10454.338,"text":"這個跟我們報告一下確實就是說要把車輛這個區分就是說你當時有沒有開輔助駕駛這個系統這個部分都是要這個事故之後親自訪談的部分比較難這個事前就去做區分因為確實現行的車輛在外表的特徵上面的那個部分是沒有做這個部分所以要去統計那個平均當量的那個部分是有點"},{"start":10454.718,"end":10475.191,"text":"其實我會問這個問題最主要是其實在國外啦在國外相關的研究比如說自己汽車品牌自己做的研究或者是第三方的一些研究等等的開現在其實國外有一些全自動駕駛開全自動駕駛的事故率大概是純手工我們人類開車的事故率大概是十分之一如果說用他的里程數來算的話"},{"start":10476.132,"end":10495.245,"text":"大概他們全自動的大概是十倍的里程才會發生一次事故那人類當然就是十分之一的里程就會發生一次事故所以說其實國外在很多包括舊金山美國舊金山或者是一些洛杉磯或者是我不要講美國講對岸在很多的城市其實很多的"},{"start":10496.314,"end":10521.083,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesi,我們不知道我們國內統計數據是什麼樣但是在國外相關的統計數據上面全自動無人的駕駛的車輛的事故率其實都是比人為開車的事故率還低那我們不曉得我們國內目前有沒有在討論無人計程車這件事情"},{"start":10525.044,"end":10542.451,"text":"報告委員,國外在試行無人計程車它也是特定區域對,當然它都會劃定區域對,它慢慢就會更擴張那未來也可能會成為一個趨勢所以其實我們台灣相關的單位包含交通部應該也要開始來討論有任何的廠商國內或國外的廠商來提出申請嗎?"},{"start":10543.765,"end":10561.351,"text":"跟委員報告一下上次大概我也有關系到這個課題就是說其實國內屬於這個自動駕駛這個場域的部分的話大概目前適用的是經濟部那個無人載具的那個部分但是目前在透過這個管道的話大概主要是這些相關自駕系統開發的廠商還沒有所謂的車廠的一個這個部分啦"},{"start":10565.752,"end":10590.099,"text":"那我們也很這個就是說樂見國內的相關車廠比如說納茲捷或是等等部分他們有投入這一個整車的部分的話那如果說有這些相關比較成熟的這一個產品的話那目前交通部已經在做法規的調適已經在做法規的調適因為我講的是其實我們最近可能國內討論比較多的就是一個行人安全行人安全那既然全自動的無人駕駛的車輛"},{"start":10591.8,"end":10591.98,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":10591.98,"end":10606.673,"text":"他的安全性、他的事故率都比我們人為駕駛人還來的低。那我也希望我們交通部未來,我不知道有沒有廠商提出申請,那未來我們對於這樣新的一個世界的趨勢,是朝一個開放的一個心態。因為我知道有時候引進一個新的東西,"},{"start":10607.333,"end":10607.573,"text":"adequ.謝謝委員"},{"start":10639.107,"end":10650.656,"text":"好,謝謝廖委員。接下來有請陳學生委員發言。好,謝謝導委。是不是請交通部陳部長。陳部長。"},{"start":10658.884,"end":10674.921,"text":"因為時間很急迫,我們抬高雄到馬祖的航線,很像元旦再過後元月三的話就停掉了,包機啊?對,包機的部分到元旦。那所以很急的是油料的部分。"},{"start":10675.981,"end":10678.242,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":10697.21,"end":10720.268,"text":"其實五階段也很簡單一階段二階段應該都沒什麼問題了那三階段四階段就是飛行嘛五階段就是飛行的問題還有順便的審查那請他們動作快一點好不好好這個我們來加速那現在我們跟馬祖的防衛部還有國防部協調差不多了也就是說一月三號以後三班那麼現在華信講運能不足"},{"start":10721.289,"end":10746.469,"text":"他們的飛機不夠。他說運能不足,就飛機不夠。那現在怎麼夠勒?到過年就不夠了。因為金門跟澎湖有大飛機在飛,馬祖沒有,受限於跑道的限制。所以拜託就是說華信那邊,華信可能也在推,他怕虧本。所以拜託部長最後面跟他講一下。"},{"start":10747.689,"end":10766.665,"text":"他想運能不夠就運能不夠啊,你叫民航局給他算一下嘛,他是不是運能不夠,他運能夠不夠我們一定會知道嘛,對不對?這個會算得出來。對,可以算得出來。那1月3號以後咧?如果我今天弄不出來的話,這裡面又牽涉到又要包機了。"},{"start":10768.087,"end":10773.616,"text":"縣政府真的已經上次動之地為必經,已經斷盡援絕。如果1月3號固定航班的申請還沒有下來的話,拜託是不是部長?"},{"start":10782.932,"end":10803.315,"text":"今年公安署署長說沒錢了嘛對不對?那明年年度預算新的開始啊,我會幫公安署護航嘛好不好?那你再給個兩百萬可以嗎?我來協助溝通。不協助溝通我砍你五百萬,你不是還虧三百萬啊?我們這邊當面講好就好了嘛好不好?"},{"start":10805.432,"end":10829.509,"text":"上次高雄市長有給一百萬你知道嗎?我知道第一批的時候啦第二批他就給了一百萬當然許智傑委員會拜託他啦我跟高雄市長的私交也不錯我們一起來促成你知道嗎?馬祖德鄉親實在沒辦法的話我們第三階段的包機繼續再包嘛因為不要讓人家笑話嘛"},{"start":10830.356,"end":10857.023,"text":"我們堂堂的行政院、交通部、立法院有進度了啦!其實您也一直在努力啊!我知道!我知道!部長也在努力啊!我也很感謝啊!前幾天給部長打電話,你馬上就很爽快地答應我了嘛!因為現在華信啊!一直希望保7!所謂保7就是7成的載客率!到達7成的載客率!而他保8!他只要8成的載客率!他才飛!"},{"start":10858.163,"end":10882.912,"text":"那我們縣政府是講說七成的在客率七成在客率如果我虧的話我縣政府來承擔嘛那我們也找到防衛部說他飛機飛過來我們官兵我們不是幫我們老百姓的忙幫官方客人的忙我們還幫國防部的忙是不是?我想國防部本來應該向他要點錢但是算了因為希望他阿兵哥能夠"},{"start":10886.431,"end":10903.803,"text":"大部份都阿兵哥啊,我們馬祖老闆已經住在高雄的不多啊,我們也希望就藉此把南部的觀光客能夠帶動,把他帶到馬祖來,這很重要的。那保七、保八,那部長也答應我說,"},{"start":10905.08,"end":10916.545,"text":"這個我們來協調看看保七部長你負責對航空公司來說保八就是不虧損華信航空大概是希望不虧損華信不是不虧損華信的成本在7.5"},{"start":10919.233,"end":10946.081,"text":"七點五,七點五他要保八還賺零點五他的意思。那部長你也跟我講說保七應該可以嘛,不是保七總得要七成。我覺得能夠達到七成已經是個很好的進展。你華信要去努力嘛,你華信不能躺在床上賺錢,對不對?天底下沒有白痴的舞者。報告委員華信現在都在虧錢,他們沒有賺錢。還好吧,立龍有錢賺。"},{"start":10948.062,"end":10967.017,"text":"他好好飛嘛,再努力一下,我們再協助他招攬公關,你看陳金脈市長跟我們連江縣王中平縣長都已經答應了。我們一起努力讓他的載客率不要只有七成,盡量往上再拉。但是新政府保七已經是一個很大的一個進展了。後來前天晚上我打電話給華航的謝董事長,"},{"start":10970.078,"end":10993.125,"text":"謝董事長說保期他說要找底下研究一下因為華信的董事長是中華航空公司的總經理嘛所以我想抓要抓頭啊你懂了沒有所以我請謝董事長幫忙謝董事長說要跟他商量我想部長你有沒有打電話給謝董事長有啦有溝通這個我會協助溝通啦你多打幾次電話給他嘛"},{"start":10994.565,"end":11023.381,"text":"因為謝董事長人也蠻好的,你多講兩次他也會軟掉,我覺得他人不錯,尤其你部長的身分,你有權責可以把董事長換掉的,開什麼玩笑?你跟他打一通電話那還得了啊?會啦,我們時常在溝通,我跟謝董時常在溝通。那就保七好不好?保七。我努力來朝這個委員所指示。那謝董事長說先飛一班,就是包機兩班以後先飛一班。"},{"start":11024.221,"end":11043.2,"text":"那先飛一般的問題在哪裡呢?先飛一般的話,高雄的飛機飛過來,我們的人飛過去,我們的人飛過去沒問題。他要對接啊,要對接啊。所以我拜託指揮官就是說馬防部指揮官啊,你去阿兵哥休假坐這個飛機到高雄。"},{"start":11044.264,"end":11071.051,"text":"那在那邊休假幾天再坐這個飛機回到房區來。如果這樣搭配的話一架也還好啦。不過時間應該是禮拜四、禮拜五、禮拜天吧。我希望能夠至少飛兩趟。至少飛兩架次一個禮拜啦。現在是三架次嘛。最少先飛兩架次固定航班啦。開航以後先飛兩架次。"},{"start":11072.233,"end":11087.28,"text":"那我據何時明局長的講法是華信目前還沒有提出固定航班的申請你現在都還沒有提出申請現在已經12月幾號了他還是需要差不多一個月的時間所以我評估啊"},{"start":11089.561,"end":11110.44,"text":"第三階段的包機可能還要繼續所以才拜託部長公安署你們那兩百萬好不好我請華憲那邊盡量加速啦可以朝正常航班那是比較好他龜速他不是加速對我請他加速加速他要虧本啊虧得快啊他龜速啊"},{"start":11111.181,"end":11139.411,"text":"所以再請那個何局長盯一下,那你也跟何局長講主持一個會議好不好找中遊啦、連江縣政府,縣長會親自來那委員列席嘛,我也找許智傑委員也去列席嘛把這個會議我希望一次不要一而不決,我們一次開會一定要到位把這個事情把它弄好好不好?好包含兩百萬也好"},{"start":11142.088,"end":11153.099,"text":"公安署你可以啦,不然跟署長講他OK啦,不要說兩百萬、三百萬他都會願意啦,等審預算的時候我們再來談好不好?現在談比較尷尬一點"},{"start":11154.855,"end":11156.636,"text":"第三階段的包機不能停止,然後接續固定航班。"},{"start":11184.136,"end":11187.619,"text":"接下來有請邱若驊委員發言有請交通部陳部長"},{"start":11219.231,"end":11243.286,"text":"部長好本席今天要跟您討論的是我們臺灣的高速鐵路那本席有看到您在12日的時候接受媒體訪問的時候有表示喔軌道運輸都是一段一段的發展那換到高鐵要看未來的科技然後還有未來政府的財政狀況但現在的建設都會預留違規提供未來延伸的可能那部長您還有說到現在雖然您現在沒有辦法告訴大家"},{"start":11244.167,"end":11261.364,"text":" bicyn 現在就要蓋環島高鐵,那未來10年20年後以政府的能力蓋環島高鐵不一定是困難的是吧,部長這是您說的嗎?那本席想先請問部長就是以長遠的角度來看那在科技跟財政方面都沒有問題的情況下您支持興建環島高鐵嗎?"},{"start":11262.845,"end":11290.958,"text":"如果財政跟科技都沒有問題的話那有這樣的需求我當然就支持啦其實跟委員報告過去呢我們目前所習慣的這個台鐵從過去也是只有台北到新竹這一段然後慢慢一段一段延伸然後最後才有這個整體的這個環島的路網那環島的路網整體的建置起來是差不多花了100年的時間花了100年的時間但我相信高鐵的部分要做一個環島的路網或許不需要這麼長的時間"},{"start":11292.519,"end":11303.527,"text":"是部長其實您這個有這個想法您並不果斷我們先來看一個影片環島高鐵我覺得不是夢未來的這個工程技術會越來越強"},{"start":11306.226,"end":11307.367,"text":"我不曉得我是不是請局長好不好"},{"start":11339.642,"end":11352.328,"text":"民國87年,那土木工程是什麼時候完工的?土木工程應該在96年通車前3年左右吧。您知道這樣子花費多長的時間嗎?"},{"start":11353.975,"end":11370.812,"text":"我們高鐵的規劃是在民國79年開始規劃87年動工96年通車是從規劃然後到通車總共花了17年那部長你有提到就是未來的10年20年如果未來20年我們希望可以看到環島高鐵那是不是現在就要來開始進行規劃"},{"start":11374.616,"end":11398.227,"text":"當然我們軌道的建設是一段一段我們當然剛剛也有其他的委員在質詢的內容就是往屏東的方向這一段先拉過去那也有另外一個議題也正在執行當中就是說拉往宜蘭的部分我們一段一段的往外拉不過這兩段其實還是要花一些時間目前也都還在規劃的階段而已"},{"start":11398.467,"end":11420.995,"text":"也還在規劃的階段有更明確的除了規劃的階段之外還有沒有其他的評估像是地質還有它的效益跟它的安全性有其實往宜蘭的延伸已經在環評環評做完在環評當中那南部的這個方案其實也都還沒有進入到綜合規劃因為我們路線都還沒有選擇出來所以其實都還要一段時間"},{"start":11421.775,"end":11443.629,"text":"那本席剛才就是問到部長是因為想要表達在25年前的台灣就有能力將就可以能夠在6年內將台灣的西部高鐵完工那這代表台灣的基礎建設能力是非常優秀的那請問部長您認同嗎就是您看到這個當時我們在興建這個台灣西部的高速鐵路從它的可行性研究然後到它營運通車"},{"start":11444.991,"end":11446.572,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":11469.708,"end":11487.541,"text":"會更高,那您認為自愛男性的部分會是什麼樣的因素呢?這個要實質去規劃的時候才會知道啦。實質的規劃,那會需要多長的時間?多長時間?這個是不是我們先完成宜蘭跟屏東端之後,我們可以慢慢的再努力往後規劃。"},{"start":11488.393,"end":11515.526,"text":"OK好那針對我們環島高鐵的這個議題部分那也要和部長分享了因為已現有的工程技術應該不是問題啊因為同屬環太平洋火山帶的日本他們過去也曾發生過強震那我們台灣一直也都是因為歸咎於我們在地震的關係所以執行起來是有難度的可是日本的新幹線是全世界第一個投入商業營運的高速鐵路系統那本席要舉例像是日本第一條的新幹線"},{"start":11517.087,"end":11539.275,"text":"為東京往大阪的東海道幹線,他是在1964年10月1號通車營運的,那他目前有十幾條線是由日本的JR集團他旗下無家的JR集團公司負責,如果我們引進就是海外的技術我想應該不會有太大的難題在執行上面,那也請就是部長還有我們的局長那在希望可以後續盡快來做規劃。"},{"start":11540.936,"end":11568.672,"text":" bicy,我們朝這個方向來努力。另外本席之前也有問到關於我們台鐵逃票的問題。這一部分部長您應該很清楚吧?是。在今年因為我們10月23日也有專報針對民眾攻擊台鐵基層站務人員還有惡意逃票的行為本席有對我們台鐵的董事長提出質詢。當時本席是以這個路某這個逃票的專家他已經算是職業的逃票慣犯了。"},{"start":11569.773,"end":11570.593,"text":" bicylcee"},{"start":11590.081,"end":11603.098,"text":"以我們嚴列車長就是我們台鐵的列車長他曾經有說過他個人最高紀錄他單月就查漏了500張補票的張數那補票金額高達10萬元那這邊想請教部長還有我們的局長要怎麼來解決這個問題"},{"start":11605.131,"end":11625.538,"text":"投票的部分其實我覺得當然台鐵的列車長大家都很辛苦不斷在車上做查票的動作那再來就是說進出那個閘口的這個查驗的部分可能要更落實就是說他進站的時候或許是用刷卡的或許是用實體票的這個進出站的這個查驗可能要比過去再更落實一些"},{"start":11626.469,"end":11651.225,"text":"因為有基層第一線的同仁他們也有提到說臺鐵公司並沒有賦予臺鐵員工在法律上的強制力那這樣子他們要怎麼來做取定呢?如果遇到這種狀況大概我們會找鐵路警察除了鐵路警察之外呢?我們是不是要該研議來修法?修法可是即便是修法也不太可能賦予臺鐵的員工執法的權利"},{"start":11654.025,"end":11681.546,"text":"部長您這邊提到的是沒有辦法賦予台鐵員工的強制力那這邊那逃票我們只能仰賴鐵路警察來做查緝嗎?報告委員如果說我們在法令上面如果可以做更強制力的賦予台鐵的員工的話那剛剛局長在說北捷很像就可以有這個強制力這我們可以來研究這可以來研究那請局長再與法務部還有我們的內政部來一起進行發布會的討論"},{"start":11682.487,"end":11701.634,"text":"最後這邊本席也要再提醒一次部長是捷運山陰線延伸至巴德堯部長您應該不陌生吧現在已經78天了請部長務必要提醒院長盡快將捷運山陰線延伸至巴德堯盡快來核定好謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":11718.174,"end":11722.459,"text":"像因為登記質詢發言的委員魯明哲委員請魯明哲召委。謝謝主席,有請陳部長,還有鐵道局楊局長。請楊局長。"},{"start":11739.559,"end":11761.483,"text":"直接切入主題我們在機場捷運的耗資問題因為現在面臨要新購實列車可以六值四普這個在購車的過程中因為大家都知道列車只是骨頭它的神經系統就是耗資耗資出問題上次我在總諮詢7月5號也講了很多不過"},{"start":11764.924,"end":11779.699,"text":"我不知道待會因為上次質詢的是前部長李孟彥部長不過我剛剛看到不管是高雄的一個計畫時程台中的一個問之前李部長答應的我相信這個陳部長剛剛我看回答的問"},{"start":11780.78,"end":11782.721,"text":"現在是人多的 有一班是根本擠不上去"},{"start":11801.791,"end":11829.245,"text":"我們政人待會就要講話了我們那個劉委員每天來立法院是我們的集結的愛用戶那經常擠不上去啊待會他會來說那現在這個狀況你不解決不行啊來我們聽一下找到的這個部分那就就沒問題了就是這個新的車還是裝兩套到了我們中壢再西門子再裝一套兩套系統就這樣的湊合的過河"},{"start":11831.286,"end":11849.658,"text":"另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用林信不到啦但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題"},{"start":11851.449,"end":11879.459,"text":"况現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩可能就是要全線做一個接行沒有訊號系統啊沒有辦法停啊如果可以更新系統他們一併新設站可以解決這個部分因為我認為是行政院級的一個要統合的一個問題是不是能拜託我們卓院長跟我們的部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向不然都來不及可以嗎?"},{"start":11880.439,"end":11880.919,"text":"現在一個情況是舊的系統"},{"start":11900.01,"end":11901.852,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":11922.748,"end":11929.47,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":11946.316,"end":11947.877,"text":"五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度五、審查114年度"},{"start":11974.218,"end":11976.579,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":12002.68,"end":12027.117,"text":"我問你們嘛那交通部當然本身沒開會行政院也沒有開會嘛所以一個假的院級的問題就是我很興奮他只是一個答題的技巧他是一個質詢的技巧我覺得這樣都不太好啦鐵道局目前針對這個案子你們兩個理由啦第一個呢因為這個桃園市政府沒有就這樣的一個解決方案來請教你們大概是這樣第二個呢因為也不是你們局內"},{"start":12028.018,"end":12028.599,"text":" bicyclist 卓院長"},{"start":12039.775,"end":12042.397,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。��"},{"start":12067.919,"end":12089.861,"text":"地方政府比較希望能夠提早重置整個耗資系統要提早重置因為你要買新的車那舊的這個耗資大概也買不到了所以希望提早重置在交通部的立場其實我們是支持提早重置這個部分我們是支持的但是要由桃園市政府他們來提出來請他們提出來那我們會支持是提出來還是拿出來?"},{"start":12091.263,"end":12110.382,"text":"這個動詞很重要提出來是沒問題現在一個狀況是這樣他們因為五個月了因為他們畢竟第一線他們也應該包括捷工局跟大眾捷運公司不斷的找相關的開會甚至有其他廠商大家來討論現在因為現在頭已經洗下去了你知道嗎"},{"start":12110.962,"end":12111.663,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":12134.244,"end":12138.945,"text":"單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":12162.012,"end":12180.142,"text":"是不是又要考慮全部那第二個方案是我們當時在討論說那你要全線到底也謝謝這個鐵道局有去發函給耗資公司喔所以希望你們來協助地方政府你好歹提出一個解決方案提出一個報價這是你們有發文的這我知道但他還報價啦"},{"start":12182.025,"end":12185.526,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。��"},{"start":12200.032,"end":12205.394,"text":"單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":12229.738,"end":12231.76,"text":"五、審查114年度二、審查114年度三、審查114年度四、審查114年度五、審查114年度"},{"start":12251.977,"end":12254.099,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":12274.68,"end":12288.01,"text":"報告員其實這個部分我們可以跟桃園市政府來做整體的討論包含說整個積極的這個資產的移轉的部分大家來做一個共同的討論或許能夠找出一個解決的方案"},{"start":12288.646,"end":12317.154,"text":"好 這個我務必要拜託你因為這個是真的是國家機場的大建設現在的因為從幾個行下未來三行下要來那這個部分的客人會真的很多現在擠在那邊其實難看那這個108億對於整個整個的一個補助叫地方出實在是不可能那現在的一個整個的一個集結整包我建議部長整包要去研究一下你們有第一個資產轉移方案"},{"start":12318.314,"end":12318.514,"text":"二、審查114年度"},{"start":12345.367,"end":12347.348,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":12366.698,"end":12393.236,"text":"因為你來這邊也跟我說當然你跟捷運公司也說你們建議的方案就是一個整合性整合性的一個對耗資系統整合性的一個發包策略它的簡單的意思就是說假設是西門子或者亞斯通都不管哪一家你不是光做這個喔不是光是集結新車裝這個而已喔那未來我還有機場綠潔延伸線喔我還有龜山的中線喔"},{"start":12397.359,"end":12424.097,"text":"但是我問採購我問行政院工程會他說可以這樣搞啊你還講說未來還有邱文華委員那邊在巴德大西亞我們10年以後發包也是你新門子的你敢講我不敢講我說真的如果這種叫做整合是不行的我是拜託局長因為現在的綠色捷運延伸線我特別要提醒當時在鄭市長時代發包的時候已經把延伸線作為後續擴充"},{"start":12426.218,"end":12428.36,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":12442.853,"end":12443.373,"text":"adequ.謝謝委員"},{"start":12472.521,"end":12473.482,"text":"謝謝主席,陽泉發言,邀請部長。"},{"start":12497.645,"end":12517.614,"text":"部長好,本席要跟你討論外送平台這個議題,因為這個牽扯到14多萬將近15萬的外送員的一個權益,也包括了十幾萬的店家的一個權益,跟包括了全台灣所有消費者的一個權益。"},{"start":12519.415,"end":12541.784,"text":"因為原本在這個月12月19號公平會就已經說要發佈準博的答案但是突然間又因為這個不知道什麼原因但是有人高度質疑是因為現在公平會的委員要做審議人事案來卡這個外送平台"},{"start":12542.324,"end":12545.005,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算"},{"start":12565.652,"end":12568.193,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。��"},{"start":12590.942,"end":12606.478,"text":"你的立場呢?交通部的立場當然合併不合併這個是公平會他們去判斷對就最後但是各自有各自的立場是但對交通部來講我們需要面對的課題其實是整個運費的透明化對外送平台平台對"},{"start":12607.259,"end":12609.541,"text":"所以也謝謝你部長之前你也討論過我們也要求也就是在整個其他國家都有"},{"start":12623.695,"end":12641.681,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12642.364,"end":12664.435,"text":"報告委員目前我們是針對運費的部分在做討論那我們前一陣子也有在找消費者端然後外送業者然後地方政府然後我們交通部的同仁大家一起來開會大家各方面一起來討論那包含這個外送的這個工會也一起來參加也就是說外送員的工會"},{"start":12664.815,"end":12687.803,"text":"有了進度開始在討論這個我們必須要積極因為不管公平會什麼時候給出這個這個準博的答案但是我們對於將近15萬的外送員以及十幾萬的這些店家未來應該會再增加消費者的生活是必要的所以在這樣三方都需求"},{"start":12688.783,"end":12692.405,"text":"單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":12718.547,"end":12737.601,"text":"多元的聲音聽取當然很重要但是你自己也要有一個定一個時間點也不能完全沒有時間點啊你預估大概什麼時候?多久時間?上一次預告完之後那大概還有一些意見那公共總局陳局長那邊已經親自主持過這一個兩次會議"},{"start":12739.964,"end":12747.981,"text":"請告訴我時間你們大概預告後大家再討論多聽多方的意見之後你們預估多久時間"},{"start":12748.905,"end":12778.725,"text":"elcome 呃根文報告我是不是根文建議這樣子回去我們請這一個陳局長那邊希望他在這個呃一個多月之後能夠把意見做一個這個縮練希望這個修正草案可以再重新做一個這個預告那換句話說如果你說一個多月等於是在農曆年過年我們現在12月嘛等於是在1月底以前可以把你們所收取寶貴的意見去做一個重新的一個預告是不是如此"},{"start":12779.906,"end":12780.366,"text":"二、審查114年度"},{"start":12805.484,"end":12805.884,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":12820.939,"end":12830.887,"text":"我們也在做,那請問因為之前本席也跟你討論過這個議題,那我們似乎在整個學區的這個周圍數限30的這個工程,可以說是還是這個成效很低。"},{"start":12839.393,"end":12864.617,"text":"現在呢?現在在第一段時間有加油了嗎?我們一直都在推動啦。那我覺得用路人的習慣可能還沒有習慣。我們確實是有這個30公里的這個限制。但是就是說開到學區附近的駕駛人有沒有看到那個牌子。那怎麼辦呢?你既然設一個牌子是讓人家看不到等於是沒有設啊。我們當然有設啦。你有設讓人家看不到啊。你沒有成效啊。你要怎麼改呢?"},{"start":12865.217,"end":12871.062,"text":"是 這個部分我們都有涉那我們也希望駕駛人要注意你們有全面涉請針對本期的議題回答你們目前有涉的達不到幾成這是第一個議題不要迴避問題你必須去盤查你現在還沒有涉的我跟你講六成以上"},{"start":12884.517,"end":12909.218,"text":"對不對?那你要怎麼樣去加強?昨年要怎麼去加強?這才是我們提問重要的希望聽到你的回答我們跟地方政府來加強溝通希望他們可以加速這個進度我們也覺得這個相當重要啦這個部分我們會來跟地方政府溝通第一個是如此第二個你要怎麼樣去宣導這個很重要你設了一個牌子在那邊人家都看不到那等於沒有設對不對我們的目的要保護我們的孩童"},{"start":12913.001,"end":12934.357,"text":"委員您所說的這個宣導真的要多做啦這個孩童非常的重要你沒有保護他的安全怎麼可以如此呢很多駕駛人看到說進入學區但他不知道要減到30以下對或許有時候有這種現象那怎麼辦呢宣導的部分我們要加強你要怎麼宣導你把你的方案給本席目前有做的只有幾層你去盤查清楚交通安全方面的宣導這個非常重要兩個議題你既然有訂這個政策"},{"start":12937.739,"end":12962.047,"text":"學區的速限30你要怎麼樣去落實目前的狀況是多少你要怎麼樣去加強這第一個課題第二個你有設的竟然還是發生問題表示你的設的方案是有討論的精準空間這兩個議題怎麼樣去宣導觀念如果有他自動告訴學區他就會減速了嘛多久時間給本席多久時間給本席那這兩個課題"},{"start":12966.528,"end":12968.471,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":12982.932,"end":13006.839,"text":"有的他一個通道我們正常一個車道3.25米寬但是他就3.25米甚至3.3米可是我們這樣法定是強制旁邊一定要有一個人行道新設的道路對不對你們是不是現在這麼做有沒有有沒有強制有沒有強制這是國土署那邊的規定啦應該是沒有強制喔"},{"start":13007.168,"end":13034.38,"text":"有啦雖然沒有強制但是現在新設的道路幾乎設計都是如此所以我也要我們應該好好去討論因地制宜他如果是快速道路沒有人走那為什麼要設那一條呢現在有很多的陳情案件因為我們當民意代表只要有陳情我們把案件拿出來給你們去討論但是我要強調第一個還是要以行人安全為第一優先"},{"start":13035.06,"end":13046.607,"text":"因為你如果面積不夠,你再把它設一個,那車跟人跟車全部混在一起,那也很危險。所以我們也要因地制宜,好好地來保護我們的行人,對不對?對。對齁,好!好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝楊委員。接下來,有請劉菊汀委員。"},{"start":13065.514,"end":13067.218,"text":"謝謝主席,交通部長、鐵道局長有請。好,陳部長、楊局長。"},{"start":13077.984,"end":13105.147,"text":"部長午安,機捷愛用戶忠誠客人來了謝謝這個本期的選區歸山尤其是林口台地這一塊基本上有非常多跟本期一樣會使用機捷作為通勤工具的這樣一個群眾那其實當初最早機場捷運在設計的時候當初只想做機場快線但因為實在跨越很多也希望這個一條捷運線的縱效能夠達到最高所以跟地方政府都做了一些協調增加了非常多的車站變成它具有"},{"start":13105.928,"end":13131.125,"text":"除了輸運國外旅客之外他也有通勤的一些功能好在當初做了這樣一個設計你看疫情這幾年基本上所有的這種機場快線都受到重大衝擊但還好集結有一定的大眾運輸的一些功能那因為後來推出1200很棒的一個政策讓這個存續跟財政狀況還能夠算是勉強的穩住陣腳那以至於地方現在其實有非常非常多增班的一個需求"},{"start":13131.765,"end":13144.003,"text":"當初其實我們也很高興陶傑公司、市政府跟交通部還有盧秉哲委員的努力之下大家在徵購列車上面已經有很好的一個共識往前走但現在來啦剛剛我們召委員有講現在碰到耗資問題這機場捷運當初是誰招標的"},{"start":13147.687,"end":13169.753,"text":"誰興建誰招標?應該是交通部嘛對不對?很久很久以前交通部做規劃設計交通部來招標對不對?我不瞞部長講本席過去一段時間很常說我是國產化的非常積極的倡議者那很多時候不管是別的業者甚至連我們自己的政府單位都會講說哎呀這個耗資系統的技術門檻非常高即便你這個合作你恐怕台車做錯車廂那也就算了"},{"start":13170.453,"end":13172.494,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。��"},{"start":13194.561,"end":13206.818,"text":"現在這個狀況就是本來的英維斯公司因為被德商西門子收購然後後來舊的列車已經全部停產變成我新的列車只能用新的耗資系統新的耗資系統只能做季節延伸線沒有辦法開A1到A22這幾站的一個狀況那請問這個狀況到底應該怎麼處理?"},{"start":13211.229,"end":13236.141,"text":"我們現在有什麼樣的條件去要求這個耗製廠商西門子去提出合理的改善方案嗎?有辦法嗎?部長請回答或鐵道局長你可以喔?這個如果目前有辦法的話應該不會卡在這裡啦。大概是沒有辦法提出一個比較能夠快速改善的方案。所以其實交通部這邊包含鐵道局也都支持說我們這個耗製提早重製的這個部分我們也都支持。好,提早重製大概花多少錢?"},{"start":13237.383,"end":13243.105,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":13259.83,"end":13270.821,"text":"它其實是相對來講沒有佔這麼多的財政資源那麼我現在想請問就是中央預計這個提供桃園市提供桃桀公司多少的一個支持多少支持對"},{"start":13273.158,"end":13293.587,"text":"我請局長好不好?可以。好,跟委員報告齁,其實機捷系統的重置費用,我們曾經在對價方案裡面有做過估算。現在只是大家對當年估算的這一個重置費用的這個當年估的數字跟現在實際執行有落差。所以我想這個可能我們要再跟台灣市政府來做一些溝通跟協調。"},{"start":13294.167,"end":13299.829,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":13322.156,"end":13323.277,"text":" bicyclist 審查114年度"},{"start":13343.689,"end":13347.15,"text":"總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":13372.202,"end":13386.368,"text":"這是不是請部長回答一下?是,我們可以趕快來找桃園市政府,大家一起來協調這件事情。剛剛盧委員、盧昭偉也有特別指示說整包來談。確實也是應該要整包來談,才談得出結果。那什麼時候來談?"},{"start":13391.041,"end":13393.663,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":13418.803,"end":13445.851,"text":"接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才委員不在接下來有請徐志傑委員發言主席那個剛才我們要開會都遲到這麼久我這邊被抓到了啦"},{"start":13446.869,"end":13447.109,"text":"林所長委員好"},{"start":13475.836,"end":13497.655,"text":"所長好,那個部長你坐著聽就好啦不過這個其實跟整個機場有很大的關係也希望說部長可以了解那個,所長你們做這個系統不錯,其實應該給鼓勵就是說機場管理模擬不用再委外,以前是委外嘛"},{"start":13498.789,"end":13509.459,"text":"ernti可以來直接做評估分析,所以變成都是在專案裡面,它事實上是要用國外發展的商業軟體來做這樣的一個分析。"},{"start":13518.868,"end":13539.215,"text":"我們這個大概就是說我們可以把那個機場空撤的一些整個場域裡面涉及到的一些作業單位那他們在作業上面所會運用到的一些比如說航管他的這個航機的隔離或是說這個跑道他的一個運用還有一些這個"},{"start":13540.435,"end":13563.285,"text":" ﻷ ﻷ"},{"start":13563.405,"end":13577.852,"text":"因為以往變成有時候有時候叫人判斷當然有時候變你要用國外的商業軟體但是我們這個軟體完全是為自己本土的這個目前是陶瓷去量身定做的一套軟體"},{"start":13579.973,"end":13596.926,"text":"所以那個部長這個運輸所所長表現不錯先給他鼓勵一下那這個就是我們淘機可以有做這樣子一個空車模擬分析系統有助於就是不管是飛機起落啦那現場那個航廈或者是跑道之間的問題可以"},{"start":13598.487,"end":13600.729,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":13600.729,"end":13615.461,"text":"讓電腦幫助你可以做得更快、更精準。是,特別是施工,如果有一些施工或一些特殊的這個狀況的時候,它可以去幫你事先模擬一下,告訴你這個施工的位置、齊階,那可能會對這個營運產生什麼樣的影響。"},{"start":13619.804,"end":13633.286,"text":"但是你不要說越來越好事情越多這樣比較不好意思啦。但是我們就是公務員,可以給改善國家的機場真的是好事。所以要拜託那個所長這個高雄機場。"},{"start":13635.168,"end":13663.574,"text":"高雄機場現在準備施工16年,哇,這好長的時間。我是希望說民航局可以把時間縮短,那不管縮不縮短,那可以短多少,這是其一。那其二就是說在這一段時間如果我們沒有去思考所有的各項配套,那包括,上一次部長也有聽到,包括停機坪,包括基地,這個高雄機場其實還有很大的"},{"start":13664.346,"end":13670.448,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":13692.856,"end":13695.679,"text":"adequate to other domestic airports."},{"start":13709.273,"end":13713.134,"text":"二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度二、審查114年度"},{"start":13735.745,"end":13763.47,"text":"因為你所其實做的事情我覺得都還可以值得鼓勵你看你們還做一個分析就是那個北美經過桃園機場往返亞太市場的探討所以你們研究的是台灣可以飛到華盛頓跟波士頓所以長榮也在評估當中那很多的航空公司其實他們都靠自己收集data啦其實也很辛苦啦也不是說馬上那麼準確啦如果從我們整個機場"},{"start":13765.171,"end":13777.167,"text":"大數據來做一個客觀的分析我想就會可以更精確所以你們這一套應該類似我剛剛提到的就是比較大數據比較所有的total的資料做一個整體的分析嗎?"},{"start":13778.711,"end":13806.629,"text":"我們就是已經累積大概十幾年每年都會持續去收集國際上主要的一些機場特別是跟我們有競爭的一些機場包括它的一些機場的服務能量飛航的航班、航空公司、航線我們就是可以每年會從這裡面透過大數據的分析針對一些國內民航發展重要的一些議題我們會去做大數據分析和輸出建議"},{"start":13808.31,"end":13810.372,"text":"另外一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":13828.78,"end":13854.66,"text":"像最近我是在聯合航空打算從高雄飛東京然後從東京再飛美國那我們一直希望可以從有機會從高雄飛美國那當然他們自己也要去蒐集這些data然後去做一個分析那看航空公司也很正常啦了解的生意沒人做嘛但是你如果數據有夠人數有夠我想是他們盡管去背吧"},{"start":13855.805,"end":13867.563,"text":"所以這個部分是不是我們南台灣往返歐美市場的研究、探討可不可以拜託運營所也報告給我們各位,給我們倒三講一下。"},{"start":13868.668,"end":13888.7,"text":"我們把它納入這個我們年度的一個重要議題的一個項目然後我們來透過我們的這個資料庫裡面那有一些資料如果目前還不夠的那我們會加速先優先來做這個購買然後來做一個這樣的一個議題做潛在的市場分析對這個其實"},{"start":13890.681,"end":13913.007,"text":"我現在去了解運輸研究所真的是做的事不錯真的是可以值得鼓勵所以還是一樣先給你拍個手不過還是說給你比較多的工作比較不好意思希望你來還有第三項其實24小時的機場真的對南台灣來講是有必要"},{"start":13915.211,"end":13942.214,"text":"那我們小港機場受限於宵禁所以我們一直困擾著高雄機場的發展那我們其實可以知道全世界各國各大城市都有如果是城市機場有宵禁的話大部分都還會有就是在比較遠附近的地方去選擇一個24小時的機場你可以看到日本"},{"start":13943.572,"end":13952.477,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":13971.138,"end":13998.898,"text":"台北呢你可以看到台北跟桃園的搭配也是一個是有宵禁一個是沒宵禁那高雄呢真的是受限於宵禁的問題所以我們很希望有機會可以有一個南台灣24小時的機場這個部分不知道有沒有機會再拜託運營所再給我們做一個看能不能幫我們找出一塊地啊看哪裡比較適合"},{"start":14000.353,"end":14025.199,"text":"跟委員報告一個機場場址的這個選擇跟評估事實上它涉及到要需要一個比較專案的計畫做研究跟分析我知道早年也曾經探討過台南的七股那個場址是不是適合但是經過研究分析當然它還是有面臨一些問題所以沒有辦法去推動"},{"start":14025.959,"end":14048.605,"text":"所以這個部分我是不是建議說當然我們可以跟民航局跟幹部市政府一起我們來跟他們做技術上面的一個參與提供一些我們專業上面的一些意見供他們一起來做討論我想你們在105年也有做過高雄縣政府那時候請你們做過那當然後來沒有結果"},{"start":14052.466,"end":14069.948,"text":"那如你所說剛才七股你們也有評估過,也沒有結果。當然當時你們的著眼就是我有個點讓你去評估OK不OK這是一個概念。那我現在就是說我從台南、高雄、屏東、南高屏、南台灣一起思考找出一個點。"},{"start":14071.269,"end":14087.268,"text":"而不是說哪個點我評估一下不適合那就算了,哪個點評估不適合就是算了,因為我們有這個需求。所以可不可以運輸研究所辛苦一點就是說我就是要找出一個點可不可以拜託運輸研究所做這樣子的研究,這樣子我就可以到最後有個具體的答案。"},{"start":14088.612,"end":14114.684,"text":"跟委員報告是不是可能先建議請地方政府看看他們有沒有初步認為有這一個適合的這一個地點因為他還是要有一定的來我跟你講上面那個照片是誰市長這是我們地方政府我們陳其邁市長其實都在努力嘛地點是不是合當然就是說"},{"start":14115.928,"end":14124.71,"text":"市長也在這一部分他有極大的需求但是沒有這一部分的專業嘛這部專業就是說你們運輸研究所"},{"start":14125.819,"end":14131.761,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、審查114年度"},{"start":14153.047,"end":14174.483,"text":"就是要拜託你說,你比較專業,用你的角度來看,對一點有適合我們地方政府。我跟你說,你如果找出來,地方政府都配合啦。地方政府都很喜歡。我跟委員報告是這樣,我們來聯繫這個幾個地方的政府,然後看看初步我們共同先盤點有沒有可能的"},{"start":14175.043,"end":14176.644,"text":"當然你如果說整個南台灣都找不到一個適合的"},{"start":14201.223,"end":14204.145,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算。"},{"start":14219.244,"end":14247.585,"text":"因為機場空車模擬分身系統我們機場要改建這段時間要配套需要做科學的調整跟協助第二個我們希望有高雄南台灣到歐美市場的航線那也希望說比照你的桃園機場往返亞太市場的研究可以為我們高雄也做一個這樣子的探討第三個就是我們南台灣24小時的機場這三件事情就拜託所長"},{"start":14249.046,"end":14250.748,"text":"接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":14284.437,"end":14298.705,"text":"主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府、江蘇長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士、先生有請交通部陳部長陳部長還有運輸研究所的林所長林所長還有一直在看著我很想上來的鐵道局的楊局長楊局長好部長好、所長好、局長好、部長"},{"start":14306.738,"end":14325.775,"text":"我的題目30年前高鐵印象預測成真20年後高鐵需求為何來請教一下部長我們往下看來那個我覺得您知道我們高鐵幾歲了嗎高鐵20歲沒有啦18歲明年18歲了那我請教一下您因為比較年輕"},{"start":14327.317,"end":14344.916,"text":"十大建設前你還沒出生嘛所以我們差了一個世代我出生的時候後來剛好在弄十大建設這個圖是一小時的台灣的活動範圍您的世代是在1980年你出生的時候那時候十大建設完成的時候我們一小時的生活就已經這麼大了"},{"start":14345.595,"end":14370.97,"text":"到了2007年高鐵通車之後,我們一小時的生活圈的距離就過它了。你覺得我們台灣有在進步吧?很好,這是我從1992年的高鐵計畫書拿下來的。好,那麼請問所長跟局長,你們有沒有參與高鐵的規劃?所長有沒有?當時我沒有,我已經在應援所,但是我沒有參與那個可行性的規劃。那局長有沒有?我們請局長,下一頁。"},{"start":14372.028,"end":14399.995,"text":"局長我那時候呢今年年初在質詢陳建仁院長的時候我說環島高鐵ICO我的I你認為是怎樣從板橋到新左營對不對一條線是不是這樣那現在高鐵有沒有到南港了有嘛未來會不會到宜蘭會那南部呢是往東會到屏東所以高鐵從南北向他分別南北端分別延伸變成一個C是不是這樣那你認為我的O是什麼意思"},{"start":14401.718,"end":14429.217,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。netesle,你參與高鐵規劃的那時候應該你還很年輕,已經是在幾年前?1992年,那時候你剛畢業進入工部門。是的。所以已經距離現在幾年了?超過32年了。32年了。32年了。那時候你沒有遇到高鐵會環島?還沒有。還沒有,好啦往下看,部長你來看。好。"},{"start":14430.72,"end":14451.039,"text":"那你知道發生什麼事嗎?最近高鐵尖峰事後是潑水之亂還是怎樣?自由座之亂是哪一個?部長知道這件事嗎?知道什麼原因造成的?高鐵會怎麼樣?他在演你要怎麼改善?你覺得要怎麼改善?以二倉自由座人不能戴水瓶嗎?不是,什麼原因造成的?"},{"start":14452.358,"end":14480.388,"text":"局長告訴部長為什麼會產生這個情況下一頁對就是我們目前臺灣的運量啊高鐵的運量已經不能滿足臺灣民眾經貨公司的需求對不對那怎麼辦高鐵怎麼解下一頁部長你覺得呢目前我們有購車的計畫希望能夠提升運量提升運量請問局長你告訴部長如果說高鐵增購了12組列車未來他預估每天的運量一天要幾萬人次"},{"start":14481.931,"end":14490.084,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在是34組如果增購12組應該我們運能可以提升1%左右那大概是到多少?"},{"start":14492.05,"end":14505.7,"text":"目前的運能大概我們最高最高可以達到每日大概現在已經超過20萬了20萬了今年民國幾年113年超過20萬好那我請教一下局長這個就是81年1992年高鐵計劃裡面說預期到2011年每日就會達到78萬人次高鐵到那時候會負擔四分之一會達到19萬人次請你告訴我在"},{"start":14519.651,"end":14523.396,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算"},{"start":14539.815,"end":14540.195,"text":" bicylson Hsu"},{"start":14560.799,"end":14567.109,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":14574.089,"end":14588.982,"text":"我們在採改案的時候曾經做過評估,也就是說高鐵在未來的20年後特許期滿的時候應該會達到我印象中是28還是30左右。30萬,現在是20萬嘛。30萬是幾年後?20年後?不是20年後,大概30年後。"},{"start":14597.065,"end":14625.938,"text":"三十年後高鐵會到達30萬。好,到那時候是不是高鐵就會環島了?部長你敢不敢這樣去判斷?部長,最後時間。我覺得有它的機率啦。有它的可能性。對。所以要預作準備。對。對不對?對。所以現在我們在地方上對於高鐵的延伸它其實不是變成I變成C,它要變成O。但是最後這個O的東部要怎麼連?什麼時候連?其實我們有個醞釀的評估。這個責任你要交給誰?是不是交給所長要去評估?"},{"start":14627.577,"end":14653.612,"text":"所長,你有沒有被賦予這個責任要去評估?運研所?目前還沒有目前還沒有,你看部長,這就是問題了我很佩服在30年前,我們那時候的交通先進有這個遠見在楊局長剛進入工部門的時候,他們就豪氣萬千地提出了一個當民國100年高鐵一日的運量有20萬人次,雖然過了又過了10年才達成"},{"start":14654.713,"end":14668.692,"text":"但是你現在評估20年後30年後高鐵的運次是每天要到達30萬次當那時候我們高鐵的軌道列車的主數絕對不是現在的規模對不對那有沒有開始預作規劃了"},{"start":14669.946,"end":14697.214,"text":"部長你可不可以給本席現在最後一頁您今天提醒我就覺得有需要做啦就是未來30年台灣的整體的軌道的規劃是長什麼樣的面貌那未來的運量是長什麼樣的面貌我覺得現在應該要開始做規劃是因為有30年前包括楊局長在內他們做了這個規劃今天我們台灣的民眾才能享受這樣的高鐵運輸對不對所以你的任內你必須為30年後20年後的台灣民眾預作設想你同意嗎"},{"start":14698.675,"end":14719.725,"text":"您是最年輕的部會首長你有這個義務我們不見得能夠那時候都退休不知道什麼時候了你有這個義務當你退休的時候你可以很驕傲的說30年前你當交通部長的時候你已經要求做這個規劃而且逐步在實現了好不好最後一點點小小的拜託因為我每次看交通部的規劃你們都有一個財務評估"},{"start":14721.306,"end":14737.875,"text":"那個財務評估其實現在來看局長你告訴部長現在高鐵的情況是當時你們規劃的財務評估的實況嗎是嗎有沒有落差有沒有預期高鐵現在有大部分的資金是來自政府有沒有當時規劃不是這樣是的"},{"start":14738.835,"end":14753.195,"text":"所以所以我要告訴你在30年前我們規劃高鐵之後想像的是BOT想像的是政府的財務能力有限所以我們都用BOT的概念去思考說移到民間來儲值政府儲值很少相對少但是現在呢高鐵告訴我們"},{"start":14754.497,"end":14777.897,"text":"政府不能夠去輕估我們自己籌辦基礎建設的能力但是我這裡不是叫我們編列預算我覺得您好好的跟金管會的彭主委討論您好好的跟財政部長討論好好的跟國發會的主委討論現在台灣的油資單單是保險的部會國人的超額儲蓄在我們的保單就超過35兆"},{"start":14779.258,"end":14786.261,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於"},{"start":14805.169,"end":14831.247,"text":"用運用民間的方式用資本金融的槓桿的方式讓民間的資金進來為未來台灣的環島高鐵做努力最後這個部分我把它拿掉您可不可以就財務的部分特別在你們的評估當中請運研所就財務的報告擺脫過去所謂的財務那樣的一個能夠怎麼樣自我負擔嘛你們都是用營運能夠滿足嘛現在高鐵打平了沒"},{"start":14832.622,"end":14850.097,"text":"打平了沒有?比你們預期的是早還是晚?打平了,有賺錢。早,那是因為政府資金注入嘛。現在政府不用注入那麼多,現在民間油資很多。如果你們現在開始籌備,現在這些資金導入10年20年的長期建設,我告訴你,現在買10年美債的都很後悔啦。"},{"start":14851.087,"end":14875.341,"text":"為什麼?你買美的美在幫美國做建設啊但是你要買什麼?買臺灣臺灣的公債部長你知道嗎?你可以發行二類公債你知道嗎?是你可以回去評估一下?所長你會告訴我們部長什麼是二類公債?有發行鐵道具是規劃二類公債嗎?我們有發行一類公債一類公債嘛對不對?有發行一類公債賣的怎麼樣?支持我們相關的建設目前一類公債你們發行多少?"},{"start":14879.335,"end":14906.276,"text":"一、二、五兆還是一、二、五億?你們是一、二、五億啦沒有啦沒有啦應該有一兩百億啦兩百億左右兩百億我覺得至少呢你可以在後面再加個兩個零都沒有問題臺灣目前的能力是負擔得起的兩百億加兩個零是多少?兩兆而已啊才兩兆啊臺灣目前的超額需求在保證的部分就三十四兆您好好思考一下部長可以同意嗎?會不會給一個評估什麼時候可以給本席"},{"start":14907.285,"end":14909.366,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":14934.5,"end":14936.082,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"},{"start":14957.506,"end":14967.874,"text":"接下來有請葉元芝委員 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在鄭正前委員 鄭正前 鄭正前委員不在"},{"start":14971.94,"end":14998.493,"text":"好,我們今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢做以下決議一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員黃建豪所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報第三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未答覆者部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆第四、114年"},{"start":15001.014,"end":15023.025,"text":"國家運輸安全調查委員會交通部運燃所、鐵道局及所屬單位預算及鐵道發展基金非營業預算等四項預算案均令則其進行處理。委員預算提案的時間定於12月25號。聖誕節嗎?"},{"start":15027.918,"end":15051.29,"text":"十二月二十五號禮拜三中午十二點截止收件今天這個可以講開會倒吃甘蔗一剛開始很緊張八、九點的時候氣氛很緊張正好交通委員會跟內政委員會同一排在天堂路這邊所以大家有時候走不進來不過我是很難得晚開會後十分鐘"},{"start":15052.489,"end":15053.871,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":15073.807,"end":15080.33,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"}]}},{"id":"16372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16372","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc42a67f5a6c5408b730e87a8aaf0819ae78081dad70f87c4658b73a3647cf290f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法等案」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-16","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-16T08:31:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-16T12:42:00+08:00","duration":15011,"影片長度":"04:10:11","委員發言時間":"08:31:49 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謝謝那我們現在邀請各位發言之前有幾點要說明"},{"start":2650.738,"end":2669.987,"text":"首先請學術專家先發言,發言順序依照簽到的先後順序如果有需要提前發言,再麻煩跟我這邊說一下,我們會視情況調整第二個本會委員按照登記先後順序發言如果是陸續到場的話,我們會安插發言,再請委員發言"},{"start":2672.388,"end":2678.292,"text":"政府機關代表發言學者專家及委員的意見與會者請到發言台發言"},{"start":2692.142,"end":2699.868,"text":"由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家的意見所以每位學者專家發言時間是10分鐘本院委員發言的時間是5分鐘首先我們請黃耀南理事發言"},{"start":2720.132,"end":2746.588,"text":"五位也好還有主席以及各位先進大家早我是全國教育產業總工會的理事我叫黃耀南目前也在新北市立新北高工任教擔任老師那我今天主要講的有底下這幾點第一個年金改革是對軍公教的羞辱政府是軍公教的雇主"},{"start":2748.276,"end":2766.35,"text":"民進黨政府在商界立法院透過多數的暴力強行的通過惡法現在在野黨針對不當的軍公教年金的改革提案修正是完全符合公平正義的再來就是"},{"start":2770.654,"end":2796.052,"text":"同時民進黨透過年金改革片面的撕毀跟軍公教的保險契約這個是我們在任職一開始的時候就跟政府簽訂的契約我們也是每個月從薪水裡面去扣除我們的保險金但是民進黨一個法案就透過多數暴力"},{"start":2797.831,"end":2825.864,"text":"就直接把法案修改了那我們現在看看齁如果是一般民間的保險民間的個人保險可以這樣子嗎保險公司可以片面毀約嗎如果保險公司片面毀約主管機關不會對他進行裁罰嗎對不對那為什麼民進黨政府可以直接這樣子做"},{"start":2826.912,"end":2853.507,"text":"完全違法那自己當政府自己帶頭違法這樣到底是對還錯那針對這個軍公教的年金改革的法案我們現在看到包括立法院這個會期就已經提出超過40個修法的提案那可以很清楚的顯示出來"},{"start":2854.929,"end":2878.543,"text":"立法委員是非常關注這個議題而且也覺得這個議題應該要做適當的修正所以在野黨提出這樣的修法提案是完全符合公平正義的那也因此可以顯現出來民進黨在2016年上台之後"},{"start":2879.818,"end":2896.285,"text":"所推動的年金改革是有錯誤的而且在當時那樣的氛圍多少的抗爭各位回想一下多少的抗爭就在當時在街頭發生"},{"start":2898.666,"end":2924.659,"text":"這個就是一個不當的立法造成的結果再來第二個民進黨口口聲聲說公平正義但是呢卻是什麼傷害公民正義的始作俑者怎麼說前總統蔡英文一上台之後就在沒有法源的情況之下在總統府成立的國家年金改革委員會"},{"start":2926.257,"end":2949.346,"text":"然後此言說 針對各職系的年輕要進行改革各位 你現在看看 做了哪些改革 做了哪些改革就只有針對軍公教做年輕改革我們不了解 如果 民進黨政府 包括蔡英文包括賴清德總統 說要改革 那為什麼不其他職系"},{"start":2954.787,"end":2956.729,"text":"所以我們覺得這個實在太離譜了"},{"start":2980.99,"end":3009.469,"text":"再來 第三點 就是從107年開始 7月1號軍公教徒基金因為年金改革 從退休人員的退休金總計已經剝削了2774億元那現在呢 政府只有撥補多少錢今年的100億元各位 這個是一個保險制度啊"},{"start":3010.509,"end":3036.327,"text":"那當如果基金真的有不足甚至可能有破產之餘那為什麼我們作為勞工的政府勞工的我繳了35%政府應該相對依法提撥65%那為什麼都從我們這些勞工的退休金撥削了超過95%來去填補這個漏洞"},{"start":3040.097,"end":3061.409,"text":"那即使現在很多的團體包括我們全教產要求政府依法撥補而且要撥足但是到目前為止相關的部會在明年度的預算還是不足所以這個事實上是非常有問題的那我們也要求"},{"start":3063.381,"end":3087.04,"text":"政府應該逐額撥補在居公教的退伍經費部分第4個就像剛剛主席講的這幾年物價高漲通貨膨脹非常嚴重我們每一年都看到基本公司都有調漲甚至我是現在現職的教師"},{"start":3090.734,"end":3114.06,"text":"我們也這幾年也調了兩次薪水退休人員也有調 調了一次結果呢 他的比例呢 比我們限職人員還要低那 這合理嗎所以 在這種種的這種情況之下我們覺得這是非常非常遏制的那同時 在講那撥補的部分"},{"start":3116.865,"end":3129.451,"text":"剛講了政府今年撥補軍公教100億那相對於勞工呢勞工保險從109年到113年總共已經撥補了2670億元明年度還要再撥補1200億前勞動部長何佩珊也在立法院還大言不慚地講"},{"start":3145.485,"end":3169.363,"text":"撥補就是改革如果撥補就是改革可以適用在勞保那為什麼不能適用在軍公教這樣一個差別對待讓人家無言以對同時這裡面有一個很重要的就是軍公教還是政府的勞工各位理解嗎所以是讓人家無法理解另外再來就是"},{"start":3170.595,"end":3195.451,"text":"第4點這幾年第5點就是我自己目前是現職的教師我一個月薪水被扣1500元左右的工保5500元的退伍基金加起來一個月要7000元我繳了35%政府要相對撥補65%所以"},{"start":3199.201,"end":3215.932,"text":"我繳的一個月的這個兔基金加公保連政府的相對撥補2萬元一年就24萬元各位了解一下想想看如果你買了保險一年的保額是24萬你這個當你的保險到期的時候你可以領多少的錢"},{"start":3223.84,"end":3249.559,"text":"是不是政府就這樣給你砍下去這樣到底合不合理所以我們覺得說主張就是第一個就是逐年每年1月1號再過十幾天這些退休人員包括我的前輩們他們就要扣1.5%大概一千元到四、四千元部分然後物價帳"},{"start":3251.296,"end":3260.88,"text":"就要這些老人這些年長者去承受這樣的痛各位理解嗎這不是一兩千元的事情這是那種心情的那種折磨比什麼都痛苦所以我們建議就是這個37條38條39條應該要做修正停止逐年遞減那"},{"start":3275.342,"end":3300.958,"text":"再來最後一個就是我今天在會場看到了參與公聽會的人員我覺得很遺憾我們這些有一些代表是真的我們背後有一群不管是現職或是退休的軍公教人員的但是我看到有幾個代表我不曉得你代表什麼民進黨的側翼嗎"},{"start":3304.246,"end":3332.078,"text":"每次在相關的場合我就看到這幾個固定很熟悉的面孔在這個會場或是相關的場合出現然後來說要代表我們廣大的軍公教人員那甚至來批判我們那在國會殿堂做這樣的事情這就是民進黨嗎所以如果真的這樣的話我建議大家看清楚把眼睛張亮這就是惡劣的民進黨謝謝"},{"start":3335.894,"end":3342.859,"text":"主席、各位在座的長官跟先進們大家早安"},{"start":3361.897,"end":3383.931,"text":"首先要感謝司法法制委員會的邀請讓我有這個機會再度能夠為現職的公務同仁不便到場的同仁表達我們的心聲以及試著建議主管機關去參考我們是不是在目前的制度之下我們用一個公積的原則跟延伸性的福利化的角度以提供退休資深的前輩更穩固的退休照顧系統"},{"start":3386.566,"end":3413.239,"text":"不好意思因為陳如我上一次有來我是104年高考三級的公務人員但是在我做公務人員之前我有9年的保險業務資歷而且是教育訓練主管所以保費如果一年是24萬的話以現在的保險商品來講都沒有辦法達到我們公教人員能得到的給付效果這是目前商業市場的現況我想先補充做個說明"},{"start":3414.099,"end":3441.385,"text":"那另外我也要先謝謝在這幾天有收到許多跨世代的呼應有些是退休的前輩們他們給予制度改革的肯定而且也很體諒謝謝他們給我的打氣也有縣執同的支持我非常謝謝感謝各位當然不意外的我也收到了非常多的批評指教包含許多攻擊性的情緒言論"},{"start":3442.245,"end":3461.627,"text":"我能夠理解前面的反應首先針對我上一次同樣在這個場合的發言我想我要講的是針對長期以來台灣的制度跟官場文化的批判絕對不是針對特定的前輩跟個人如果讓你們感到冒犯我在此致歉"},{"start":3463.154,"end":3476.714,"text":"很對不起那也特別謝謝我的親人跟長輩朋友們雖然他們心中不悅也沒有對我多做苛責我也感謝他們的海量跟他們的包容跟他們的氣度"},{"start":3477.745,"end":3500.436,"text":"我想跟各位再強調本協會要強調的事情是誠如簡報所顯示的現行公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的各項作為它是一個跨越藍綠長期政策規劃的結果而現在過去年金改革的方案包含諸多我們想要討論的替代率調降的機制等等其實已經正在展現它的成效"},{"start":3501.121,"end":3510.79,"text":"他正在為遠遠原本奄奄一息的退撫基金取得生機他使這個退撫基金這個大水庫有機會能夠延續他的使用壽命"},{"start":3514.229,"end":3533.438,"text":"理想上我們的退撫基金當初的設計是要合乎共同提撥制的邏輯讓退休金回歸到退休人員的身上可是因為我們在這麼長的時間裡面受到了許多變相的影響例如少子女化、高齡化、鳳級屈高化的制度結構問題"},{"start":3534.759,"end":3549.716,"text":"長期不足而提撥的問題還有確定幾副製診複雜性的因素影響會導致它跟當初設計的理想方案有背離的現象也就是我們要再說一次它會導致說現職人員的提撥會跟已經退休人員的提撥會混雜在一起"},{"start":3553.781,"end":3580.961,"text":"此時如果我們已經把精算後的調整機制中斷將造成不可預測和風險不但會讓現職人員在未來借退時的財務風險增加也不利於活化我們的退撫基金各位這是我在上週一公聽會同樣有幸來參與這個公聽會的晚上有跟一些退職同仁的退化各位看一下蜜蜂說他說根據國民黨立委們的修法版本"},{"start":3581.681,"end":3601.869,"text":"未來5年的退撫基金減少的金額節省的金額可能因此而短少2800億所以呢2051年會提前到2046年基金見底他說後面這個字不好意思國會殿堂我不方便講但他說我那年剛好65歲所以我沒得領蘋果說我是不是該知足因為我是2051年"},{"start":3610.114,"end":3624.633,"text":"我想跟各位講這是一個已經不符合21世紀的政治經濟社會跟文化環境的制度它非常容易造成世代剝落感跟對立所以如果要提高退休給付不是不行"},{"start":3625.094,"end":3640.589,"text":"但是不要再去強調一個已經被精算好的退撫津津的使用不要再去改它了而且這更讓我們提醒一件事情各種想要調整它的方案如果是不利於退撫津津運作方案都是萬萬不可行啊"},{"start":3641.892,"end":3659.984,"text":"我們發現如果用整個學理的概念來看的話通常一個公職人員或者是一個政府當中的受僱者他的工作總回報可以分為總待遇跟延伸性回報這兩種而我們過去在設計所謂的報酬制度的時候"},{"start":3661.005,"end":3686.757,"text":"我們都太過度的強調了左邊的總待遇而且總待遇的部分在退休給付的部分我們基本上都過度強調現金待遇而非現金給付非金錢給付的福利待遇其實是非常多的我想告訴各位報告的事情是各位可以發現如果以OECD國家也就是今天合乎我們的討論提綱的內容在說的內容的話"},{"start":3689.673,"end":3717.673,"text":"分為確定給付制 確定提撥制 名目賬戶制 跟點數制 諸多的方案而且在所謂的多層次年金 多助體系的退撫建構制度下它其實會混合運用 會多元運用因此我們要建議 可以依據國家的財政 預計經濟發展成果基於在職的公積原則 在退撫基金之外提供額外的金錢性給付 或是非金錢性給付"},{"start":3719.421,"end":3731.406,"text":"這些部分 一部分可以平衡基金 強化財務性的補助另外 也把我們退休人員的延伸性福利有一個多元的方案來補強大家心中的來彌補大家心中的不滿"},{"start":3733.325,"end":3754.726,"text":"有關金錢給付的制度上一次其實想跟各位好好的介紹本會建議不妨就參照行政院人事行政總署於109年的出國報告當中針對所謂退瑞典政府做的平衡基金建立財務自主平衡機制讓他能夠達到收支平衡還有如果當今天有不平衡的時候"},{"start":3755.546,"end":3782.941,"text":"這個基金也能有救助的方案它能夠避免基金進行破產它能夠有效的創造真正的平衡感我們該設計一個跨世代共享的平衡基金解決各位的擔憂也解決我們年輕世代的擔憂用一個撲破僵局具有發展性的制度彌補過去的創傷跟裂痕過去就讓它過去一起邁向未來才會共好"},{"start":3784.025,"end":3801.099,"text":"比方說如果當GDP連續局長成長3年的時候我只是舉例還是要請主管機關跟先進們一起思考那是不是就是一個基金開始設置或是各項普貼開始介入的一個很好的時機點呢目前的退撫法的67條的規定其實是可以調整的"},{"start":3803.661,"end":3825.271,"text":"非金錢性的補助方案非常繁多大家的需求不一樣但是公務人員協會法目前在裡面就已經有規定在他的第8條有規定其實可以針對協會會員的福利來去收集需求再向主管機關反映這樣應該可以有效的協助資源進行分配同時保持方案的彈性"},{"start":3826.767,"end":3847.912,"text":"我要跟各位說的是公務員對國家的服務價值是發現機會傾聽多元聲音是實施公平可靠的政策是確保政策能夠有效被落實公務人員的協會也應該可以有體現服務價值的輔助性而且公務員絕對不該成為特定政黨的進卵"},{"start":3849.721,"end":3856.249,"text":"我覺得某些議題由特定政黨來提出或者是說某些團體是特定政黨的側議這都背離了公務員的價值"},{"start":3858.544,"end":3888.019,"text":"因此我們認為關於非金錢性的給付福利例如參考OECD國家的很多方案或許可以用點數字的精神提供公共服務里程讓已退休的公務前輩用你在職的公積年資換取里程以比較優惠的價格來提供你消費上的生活物品的消費換來補助以平衡通貨膨脹造成的挑戰此外高齡的人力資本的運用很多的退休前輩其實身體健康而且腦袋清楚"},{"start":3888.639,"end":3904.532,"text":"還有非常多過去在政府服務裡面的歷練可以協助現職的同仁或許針對中生學習可以進行補貼或許可以讓現職前輩來輔助我們在職的同仁有利於政策的推展這個時候都是可以另外發放津貼的"},{"start":3906.24,"end":3923.832,"text":"本會最後要強調的事情我們應該不分朝野在重視公務職業尊嚴的前提下討論更加的法案關於公務人員的工作價值跟尊嚴執政黨現在要做的是打散友善的職場招募有志於公共服務的人才給予合理的待遇報酬"},{"start":3924.392,"end":3950.038,"text":"而退休前輩的職業尊嚴過去因為一直使用的制度缺陷而蒙上塵埃萬萬不可再討論相關的改革制度的事物陷入過去的困境當中而主管機關還是要不斷的多做討論溝通也需要額外提醒某些部分特別職的公務同仁一如採用輪班輪休勤務的同仁警察、消防、監所、交通"},{"start":3950.558,"end":3972.936,"text":"施法行政他們的工作待遇條件還有很大的進步空間如果我們欠缺共識性的決策機會會使它產生現在沒有變好以後會變差的想法也會導致制度的反覆而強化剝奪管最後我還是要跟資深的退休前輩還有各位委員呼籲國家要進步制度要進步絕對不走回頭路謝謝"},{"start":3979.053,"end":4006.195,"text":"我們先請楊瓊英委員發言接下來就麻煩李雅雯政策委員準備謝謝主席謝謝主席今天安排的這個公聽會公務人員退休資遣撫卹法這個公聽會本席認為非常的重要我們要聽聽多方的意見本席也提出本席的意見"},{"start":4007.596,"end":4019.388,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法從2018年7月1日開始施行規定已經退休的公務員年金所得替代率由最高75%至最低45%但是從2020年每一年減少15%逐年連續10年"},{"start":4027.956,"end":4028.016,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4046.536,"end":4049.398,"text":"國際建立在公務人員退休撫卹制度"},{"start":4073.852,"end":4089.686,"text":"目的在維持退休公務人員晚年的基本生活善盡國家照顧老年生活的義務但是政府說國家財政困難困難到每一年的稅收"},{"start":4090.387,"end":4104.418,"text":"是超增千億起跳從113年全國賦稅收入甚至有可能創下歷史性的次高紀錄財政部上修今年的超高規模是4900億到5100億"},{"start":4108.041,"end":4108.101,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":4125.217,"end":4129.319,"text":"主計總數編列高齡家庭消費者的物價指數我們發現物價指數成長對於高齡的影響是非常的嚴肅的一個議題2023年為2.8%我們高於全體的CPI的年增率是多少是2.5%所以目前第37條跟36條的規定逐年的來降低所得替代率與在職人員的薪資"},{"start":4154.073,"end":4159.576,"text":"新縫調整要脫鉤實際上會讓退休族不堪負荷難以因應生活支出所以如果按照現行的法律我們不停止調降所得替代率政府應該要提出相對的因應討論方案以善盡國家照顧晚年生活的最基本義務"},{"start":4180.385,"end":4198.074,"text":"目前公務人員退休撫卹的制度設計以消費者物價指數年增率作為調整退撫待遇機制的參考目標但是本行在月初的時候也跟司法法制委員會來質詢討論"},{"start":4202.356,"end":4207.899,"text":"全序部提到,身為高齡退休族,在食物類及醫療實質的醫療費用相對比較高,加上相關價格也漲"},{"start":4223.326,"end":4241.66,"text":"意味著要忍受比一般家庭更高的通膨壓力所以建議可以來研擬改採用高齡家庭高齡家庭CPI為調整我們整個退府待遇機制的一個參考標準"},{"start":4242.46,"end":4248.165,"text":"以達到照料我們的退休的公務人員的目的我再一次的要強調因為以往跟現在物價指數的通膨似乎是比我們政府所預估的都為高這是第一項"},{"start":4257.972,"end":4261.713,"text":"高齡的需求再次說明不管在食物類別或醫療所需的費用都比較高所以主計總署也提出了高齡的CPI已經比一般的CPI調漲還要高換句話說我們看到2比8是高齡的一般的只有2.5"},{"start":4282.997,"end":4283.557,"text":"李雅雯研究員發言"},{"start":4318.208,"end":4345.078,"text":"主席各位先進前輩們大家早我是全國教師會的政策研究員代表李亞文我也是高雄市鳳林國中現職的美術老師那非常高興有這個機會在這裡為大家報告我們接下來的一些現場人員的心聲那我們看一下107年改的一些回顧與檢討的部分在去年考試院及行政院按依法完成首次年改定期檢討並提出6項指標來建立年金制度的監控機制"},{"start":4345.598,"end":4369.352,"text":"但是大家會發現這6項指標以投讀缺二年改方案的檢討與反省所以在這一次的事件當中我們剛好有這機會召開公聽會來檢討我們的年改方案那我們要跟大家報告的是一年期年改的主要問題它有一個很嚴重問題就是選擇性的改革大家看一下這一張精美的圖文宣那是當時的那個年改辦公室所做的說這次年改是選擇性針對性的改革嗎它很明確的說"},{"start":4371.613,"end":4384.282,"text":"不是,因為不論公教、軍勞農及其他國民等身份的全民均納入年金改革然而五年過去,我們只看到軍公教被改革、被砍年金我們看一下兩個月前有言在耳的我們的前勞動部長他還提出說他不會砍年金,撥補就是改革他還告訴大家,告訴我們的勞工們不會砍年金,基金不會倒,年金一定領得到"},{"start":4396.65,"end":4396.69,"text":"年資補償金"},{"start":4415.466,"end":4433.883,"text":"當年是為了彌補橫跨新舊制前年資未滿15年的軍公教人員的損失其實它跟基金的財務沒有關係而且它已經入法了但是在107年改的時候卻順便被砍而且軍人繼續保留公教人員被刪除退休的公教人員有債制的公教人員沒有"},{"start":4434.423,"end":4434.943,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":4456.101,"end":4456.902,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法等案"},{"start":4479.142,"end":4489.288,"text":"那時候的年改操作不當造成社會對立的狀況而且是職業別跟世代間的對立為什麼這麼說呢大家可以看一下官方公佈的文件裡頭他忽視了僱主責任延遲挑動世代與職業間的對立一樣是年改辦公室所寫的他說"},{"start":4495.912,"end":4502.935,"text":"年金制度沒有下一代養上一代的問題嗎我們看到很大剌剌的一句話對未來年輕人都是莫大的負擔他又說到政府資源分配合理嗎我們現在在講你的顧主責任你為什麼提到政府資源分配合理嗎他還讓大家說你看用於軍公教的人員"},{"start":4511.858,"end":4518.423,"text":"15萬人占掉7.5%這樣子的資源會不會合理嗎值得大家思考我真的是傻眼如果我們老師膽敢在班上帶風向要其他班級同學公審某個個案同學說他占去太多的資源或者是告訴某個同學說就是因為某個個案學生的關係害你們現在要特別辛苦我們早就被啟動各種不適合教師調查然後被跟議員或者是記者媒體"},{"start":4539.159,"end":4539.9,"text":"獲利者現在卻用一句信賴保護來捍衛自己的權益接著又說到"},{"start":4562.614,"end":4566.975,"text":"全會議者不輕易放棄既得利益我不曉得寫這一些的那位人員他有沒有想到他講的這句話出來之後呢並不是只有當初制定設計者的人會被認為是既得利益者而是全體軍公教人員都會被當成是一個既得利益者變成過街老鼠這個人不知道是不是也是這一些既得利益者當中的一部分"},{"start":4587.481,"end":4594.986,"text":"所以在這樣子的引導之下媒體與政治人物的議題操作軍公教人員當然會成為縱使之計再加上這些選擇性的改革嚴重的傷害了軍公教人員的生活以及他們的心這一些陪著政府從吃不飽也餓不死的時代一起打拚過來的前輩們怎麼能不感覺被信賴的國家背叛被應該要照顧他們的雇主的政府給背棄的呢"},{"start":4612.037,"end":4624.687,"text":"前人制定的制度歷年乃沒人落實的精算規劃難道要怪在這些當初接受的這個制度而進入公教體系的這些基層人員身上嗎107年改引發了非常嚴重的社會不安以及對立紛爭可以說是歷次年改最為嚴重的一次我們都非常希望未來不要再發生這樣子的狀況好 再來我們要檢討的部分還有兩個重點第一個"},{"start":4635.695,"end":4644.699,"text":"停止替代率降低要有配套措施再來就是政府有責依經算10年撥補我們可以看到在年金制度監控機制的6項指標當中非常明顯的有兩個跟政府的僱主責任有關係一個就是退休人員條件所的節省退府經費"},{"start":4653.123,"end":4669.317,"text":"移駐退撫基金的情形另外一個就是所謂的編業預算撥補的情形這兩個完全就是在呈現政府的雇主責任那我們在停止替代率降低的配套桌時我們必須要強調當年我們是消改了公教人退休人員的給付"},{"start":4669.657,"end":4693.277,"text":"把節省的經費預注回基金來處理退撫基金的部分潛藏負債問題也就是說當時只有退休人員付出了但是政府卻沒有相對提撥進去因此這個預注財務缺口理應由政府雇主責任來填補而不應再由退撫基金承擔以預防公教退撫基金的用期能先在提前會有違基金世代的公平正義第二個"},{"start":4693.737,"end":4706.5,"text":"政府有責依經算來做10年撥補為什麼呢依據我們全序部113年4月份的報告指出在維持退撫基金公教人員用期年度不變的前提下應該要分10年每年317億元撥補來退撫財務的新缺口但大家都看到這兩年來全部都沒有撥組如果沒有撥組的話我們就會"},{"start":4717.823,"end":4727.327,"text":"更早的破產所以在退撫基金的救缺口能否及時補足會影響到基金是否再次年改風險會嚴重影響現值公教人員的退休權益如果我們用20年撥補的數字來看的話會比分10年撥補還要多出710億"},{"start":4735.271,"end":4735.411,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4752.464,"end":4772.686,"text":"全教會呼籲國會朝野黨團監督政府採取10年的撥補方案我們可以看一下其實我們在很久以前我們的公務人員退休撫恤基金管理委員會就已經26年前就已經赴韓國跟日本來進行這些考察並且在89年的時候就已經在報告中提出5項建議"},{"start":4773.507,"end":4776.349,"text":"這五項建議都是我們歷年來的專家學者曾經提出過的各項建議包括積極從事國外投資及妥善辦理委託經營以提升基金經營效益事實調整基金提撥率以改善基金財務結構"},{"start":4790.618,"end":4807.729,"text":"第3個是加強福利措施的辦理以改造造福所有參加基金人員第4個是健全基金管理組織以加強經營管理效能第5個則是檢討改善現行退休經濟副制度以永續經營其實我們在好久好久以前就已經提出"},{"start":4808.109,"end":4808.129,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4828.862,"end":4834.884,"text":"斷食這些加強福利措施幫行政院刺激這幾年來低迷的國考人數來增加一些優秀的年輕人選擇公職的誘因再來就是我們也建議一下未來可以考慮要不要再請我們的管理委員會再次前往日韓考察一下這26年過後現在他們的年金制度執行的如何因為日韓兩國年改的比我們早"},{"start":4855.129,"end":4860.752,"text":"年金制度也更成熟而且他們的政經背景還有金融體系都與我們比較相近他是按知識可以工作所以我是比較建議說我們可以去看看人家已經年改過後他們經歷過的那一段走在我們的前面現在變成什麼樣了好 最後我是要告訴各位"},{"start":4873.8,"end":4898.918,"text":"世代公平正義與基金永續其實關鍵不在策略大家都已經提出非常精闢的一些建議了其實它的關鍵是在政府的態度公務人員沒有公會為他們撐腰挺身而出所以我對各位部長拜託你們站在公教體系的頂點你們影響到底下數十萬公教人員的人生他們是國家人民是各位的下屬員工這是你們的夥伴"},{"start":4899.298,"end":4899.838,"text":"郭艷成研究員"},{"start":4931.713,"end":4956.769,"text":"主席以及在座的各位先進以及各位官員以及委員們大家好我是全教總政策研究員郭彥成今天主要來談公教退伍的修法的部分主要是要表達一下我們公務人員對政府目前的一些態度以及做法上表現出我們的不滿以及憤怒"},{"start":4959.042,"end":4978.61,"text":"主要的談論內容主要是政府僱主的責任不容再規避再次強調政府是僱主你的責任不容再規避政府應該負起這個僱主的責任但是我們近年來看到政府的態度尤其我們前勞動部長他針對"},{"start":4982.618,"end":4994.553,"text":"老保部分撥補就是改革甚至說老保是類國民年金的一個是類國民年金政府本來就應該全部來負責那以及"},{"start":4995.984,"end":4996.264,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":5014.977,"end":5035.866,"text":"人數來看,勞保應該每一年要撥3000億以上才合理甚至今年8月,行政運營發言人陳世凱表達政府要以合理的資源來做分配,讓所有職業族群的人都可以得到合理的保障"},{"start":5037.199,"end":5064.634,"text":"要全力的維繫勞工、國民、農民以及軍公教的基金永續但是我們來看一下政府雇主的責任跟其他的保險的部分的一些差距的部分我們來看一下那勞保的部分屬於第一層的社會保險公保也是第一層那我們的公教退輔是第二層的職業年金我們現在看一下勞保受雇者提撥20%政府提撥10%"},{"start":5066.704,"end":5078.615,"text":"負責負擔負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負"},{"start":5093.223,"end":5100.207,"text":"公保部分政府要負責65%我們負責35%那退伏也是那在這樣的一個基礎之下"},{"start":5101.983,"end":5125.202,"text":"政府在勞保部份其實它主要的負擔也就是它的責任是10%但是現在政府全包那我們的公保跟退府政府應該負65%的責任但是它把這兩個拿來做相同的一個類推來比較相同的一個處理這是錯誤的接下來我們就要看一下"},{"start":5126.798,"end":5148.343,"text":"以106的年改透過削減公務退休人員的一個給付將這些錢全部預註在我們的特補基金來處理特補基金的潛藏缺口的問題但是我們注意到了政府並沒有提供相對的一個提撥也就是說這35%大多數都是由我們軍公教人員來做承擔的"},{"start":5151.479,"end":5171.497,"text":"那也就是政府規避了僱主的責任也就是這接近65%的部分政府到現在沒有很積極的要來做負責也就是說我剛才講到的這部分目前來說都是由我們來承擔政府並沒有承擔了這個大部分的一個應有的責任"},{"start":5173.732,"end":5186.087,"text":"那我們的退撫法裡面第7條政府應該負最終的支付保證的責任以及第93條出任的公務人員這個制度建立之後"},{"start":5187.301,"end":5210.092,"text":"我們應該要先來進行這個資金缺口新制的部分的資金缺口的一個撥補分年的來做撥補再來還有潛藏的舊的債務的部分也應該是由政府來編列預算來做撥補那最重要的一部分就是健全基金的財務健全基金的財務"},{"start":5211.843,"end":5224.466,"text":"以退撫基金第8次的精算報告裡面若要我們的退撫不破產政府一年要撥521億公務人員285億教育人員236億總共521億也就是每一年只要撥521億我們的退撫就不會破產"},{"start":5237.801,"end":5259.885,"text":"但是最好的狀態政府如果很積極的話520億撥出來我們就不需要在這裡討論這些問題但是呢我們的退休法第九的三條是說先撥補新的缺口再撥補舊的缺口那我們就照法來走先撥補新再撥補舊的部分那我們可以看到111年的撥補法制化之後那113年政府進行撥補100億"},{"start":5267.529,"end":5281.041,"text":"公務人員50億教育人員50億然後呢114年經過全教總理事長絕職抗議之後呢那政府願意再提高一些114年每年撥比194億公務人員120億教育人員74億但是以這樣的一個20年的撥補的時間我們來看我們從113年開始撥補"},{"start":5295.526,"end":5315.74,"text":"如果我們 比方說我們都拿都用194億20年撥補來看撥補到133年新的缺口 新制的缺口才撥補完那我們目前金融報告裡面所提到的公務人員140億140年基金用慶與教育人員137年基金用慶這樣的時間"},{"start":5321.533,"end":5344.104,"text":"我們的舊缺口以目前的金額還有八九千億那八九千億你要用四年到七年的時間把這些缺口補完你一年要花多少錢一千五百億以上你現在撥個一百九十四億就哀叫了你到時候剩下四到七年的時間你有辦法再撥這一千五百億嗎"},{"start":5345.806,"end":5372.501,"text":"現在政府的做法老闆的部分也是我不改革我把這個東西定時炸彈留在後面讓後面的人去收尾所以我們的撥補也是我先補個194億我等以後我等以後再由誰來執政才去收尾請問這是一個負責任的政府的態度嗎那政府這樣子不負責任的態度叫公務人員怎麼樣對你有信心啊"},{"start":5373.598,"end":5386.071,"text":"真的是一點信心都沒有這就是為什麼現在在座有很多退休的前輩們甚至我們這種中生代、年輕世代不滿啊來到這裡抗議剛好而已啊真的剛好而已啦好的"},{"start":5392.754,"end":5401.835,"text":"公教退輔的撥補已經法制化了政府應該儘速完成撥補10年的317億的撥補是最適合的為什麼不做?為什麼要用20年?你20年撥補剩下那幾年的時間要撥八九千億你撥得出來嗎?這政府真的是亂七八糟阿"},{"start":5415.018,"end":5439.487,"text":"不是我們在講,這是亂七八糟請政府儘速完成撥補,重建公教人員對政府的信心至於退撫法第37條部分,全校總支持停止退休所得替代率的降低但是依照目前政府對撥補的態度這麼消極我們要改了之後這些錢最後誰來負責?"},{"start":5441.155,"end":5445.139,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":5463.937,"end":5484.118,"text":"以政府目前一直以來的態度,這麼消極的態度把事情都丟給後面的人去處理以目前的做法是不合宜的所以全教總認為政府應該負起剛剛所說的僱主的責任不應該再由退府基金來做承擔才是保障全體公教人員不管是在職或退休的一個權利"},{"start":5486.397,"end":5510.513,"text":"那至於退休法第67條的部分那學長我認為呢退休所的調整我們目前都是以消費者物價指數來做一個參考那我們應該以17項的一個重要民生物價指數來做一個參考指數會比較接近目前的一個通膨這麼高漲的一個情況會比較能夠呢滿足我們退休人員的一個整體生活上的需求以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":5512.947,"end":5540.187,"text":"好 謝謝那下一位我們請陳孝聖理事長委員好那各位長官好各位前輩先進大家好我是全國金公教檢消權益保護協會理事長陳孝聖那今天代表70萬退休金公教站在這邊講話"},{"start":5542.108,"end":5555.297,"text":"一千人換不到一秒鐘那我現在這樣講今天有聽到何理事長前面何理事長講到他覺得改革應該繼續的部分那那個部分我不置可博我先講一下"},{"start":5556.937,"end":5577.191,"text":"他沒有走過低薪的歲月當時一個勞工一個禮拜的薪水是一個公務員一個月的薪水他沒有走過這段時間他也不是現在需要靠著退休金然後來請看護的退休金公教人員他更不是"},{"start":5578.112,"end":5604.332,"text":"他需要拿著他的退休金還要來養護他的爸爸媽媽更老的八九十歲一百多歲的八九十歲的這些爸爸媽媽的這些他沒有面臨這樣的情形但是各位我們台灣現在是高齡化社會我們有沒有這樣的情形有那有些人他的生命的確生存前是受到剝奪的那不管他今天是一個兩個十個一千個"},{"start":5605.652,"end":5616.692,"text":"生命任何一個法案都不應該去影響到一個生命的生存權所以我今天要特別要跟大家講因為我前面聽到這個何理事長講的那些我心裡面很難過那我現在這樣講"},{"start":5622.519,"end":5648.619,"text":"其實我們做人跟政府都一樣善良不需要理由那你要違俄的時候我們的藉口都講不完今天你要撥補勞工要不要理由撥補勞保年金要不要理由不用政府要撥補他就撥補了其實不需要理由但是呢你要砍軍公交退休金的時候世代正義出來了國家財政困難出來了對不對然後呢所有的理由"},{"start":5649.724,"end":5675.143,"text":"都是為了要砍軍公教的退休金所以我要跟大家講我們善良的時候一個善政善良的時候不需要理由但是我們要去為惡的時候或者要有一個惡政的時候他可以講不盡的理由第二個當時改革105年的時候軍公教被罵成米蟲但是各位軍公教是米蟲嗎"},{"start":5676.878,"end":5687.492,"text":"我們要這樣講陳其宜才是米蟲五萬個丑傭的位置他才是米蟲軍公教他不退休金不是不勞而獲"},{"start":5689.192,"end":5711.993,"text":"他是付出了一輩子的努力最後他在最初要去入職的時候跟政府簽訂的契約然後呢把他以後的退休生活也算計到了這個部分所以各位今天這份工作契約呢被背棄了他不是米蟲他們是用一輩子他們付出了生命的價值所換得的"},{"start":5717.028,"end":5741.758,"text":"好 第三個我要講的《傑山猶考》是一部日本電影當時有一個山村只要老人家他沒有辦法這個從事生產的時候年輕一代的人就把他背負到深山裡面把他丟棄讓他死亡那這部電影那時候看的時候我們是很震撼但是各位現在真實在台灣上演這個電影現在是真實在台灣上演"},{"start":5746.848,"end":5766.342,"text":"所以當時軍公教他在年輕的時候所做的事情為了所從事的工作是為了他現在他要養老對不對但是呢這個部分他們受到了剝奪他已經被政府遺棄了我們要特別要講"},{"start":5770.919,"end":5786.37,"text":"不管是勞工或者軍公教不管是勞保勞退公退他們在年輕的時候參加了這些制度都是為了政府設計這些都是為了讓政府安心養老但是軍公教現在有辦法安心養老嗎大家想一下再來要跟大家報告的是我們"},{"start":5794.406,"end":5814.726,"text":"政府有沒有定義年金的法案在國外年金分成4層商業年金、職業年金、職業保險金另外還有一個社會福利年金但是台灣沒有一個年金基本法也沒有定義年金在台灣的年金只有國民年金、勞保年金還有老人年金"},{"start":5815.487,"end":5832.692,"text":"那你今天要進行改革的是軍公教的退休金那你要改革之前你是不是要先訂一個年金基本法先定義出來你才有辦法去進行改革那你先拿著年金然後來改革退休金這個是軍公教不能理解的跟大家報告"},{"start":5839.106,"end":5861.552,"text":"黃耀南 還有我們全教總 郭委員他們前面都講到公保的部分每個月付多少那提撥的部分多少 對不對那各位 公保比照勞保可不可以我們跟勞保一樣 腳一樣多臉一樣多可不可以這有沒有基於職業平等"},{"start":5863.39,"end":5873.298,"text":"好 如果是可以的話 大家考慮一下現在軍公教的公保繳了多少 他現在領多少然後被罵成米蟲 這樣到底合不合理好那"},{"start":5885.802,"end":5909.986,"text":"代替正義跟財政困難還有反改革這都是不對的這個都是口號而已都是謊言老保年金他不足的時候為什麼不存在代替正義問題那所以今天為什麼獨獨對軍公教會說有代替正義的問題前面人在講說你繳的錢由我們繳的一部分那老保呢同樣一個政府"},{"start":5911.692,"end":5931.743,"text":"那難道勞動部的這個長官他的部長他的能力比較好我們公務人員前西部的長官他就無能嗎他沒有辦法比照勞動部嗎還是說今天掌權的那個人最上面的那個人認為我就是要霸領軍公教這是我們不解的"},{"start":5938.018,"end":5952.924,"text":"好再來跟大家報告很多委員 立法委員還有我們都長官他都認為107年從78他們開始扣扣到現在扣的7.5%各位不對我跟各位講"},{"start":5954.721,"end":5975.057,"text":"改革的開始就先砍了16到20幾%然後平均大概18所以第一年假設他所得替代率是80幾%的人他馬上降了18%然後呢每一年再扣1.5%如果到明年114年還繼續砍月份繼續砍的話各位"},{"start":5980.509,"end":6004.954,"text":"就是已經達到了27%目前已經砍了25.5%整個改革它的弧度如果按照這個表來算大概是33%各位已經砍了八成了已經砍到達到八成了然後現在剩下兩成的部分你說會影響到整個退伏基金很大的影響大家聽懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":6006.212,"end":6031.882,"text":"他會對所有退休金公教很大的影響不是對退伍基金很大影響已經砍了深度已經砍了八成了只剩下後面的一點點沒有走然後我們現在只是卑微的告訴你說這些人的生存錢受到影響了但是呢你卻認為我們不能走回頭路各位人民已經在懸崖前面站著你告訴他"},{"start":6032.862,"end":6039.285,"text":"政府的完不能走回頭路你們要往前跳叫他跳選來到底這樣對不對我們來想一下再來我們要講這場所謂的年金改革他不是有衝擊金工價他的改革的惡果是全部的人全民共同承擔"},{"start":6061.974,"end":6073.045,"text":"退伍基金現在軍工價被砍了2700億各位這2700億本來是國內的消費市場對不對現在呢你看到不管是服務業然後"},{"start":6076.777,"end":6098.413,"text":"醫療業：或者是觀光業：有很多非常受到重大的衝擊：這是因為二砍軍公教：第二個他消滅了中產階級：加大了貧富懸殊：第三個整個國家機器的運轉公共服務品質降低了：第四個造成了人才開始外流：第五個他忽略了老人的醫療需求"},{"start":6099.494,"end":6119.567,"text":"好 那這個我就先不講我先大家可以看資料我先講到我們當前的要求我們是希望說不要到明年現在法案通過113年的時候就先後面講的已經砍八成了嘛剩下那兩成不要再砍了先停止"},{"start":6120.404,"end":6120.424,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6140.733,"end":6159.168,"text":"第3個撥補前面已經講了那最後一個我要講的84年以前的年資有些老人家他已經受到影響了他已經八九十歲了84年以前退休的但是你現在砍他他跟退伍基金他沒有領半毛錢他是N級制但是你砍了他"},{"start":6160.009,"end":6160.089,"text":"主席"},{"start":6185.794,"end":6186.094,"text":"翁小林委員"},{"start":6198.724,"end":6223.759,"text":"主席﹚在座的委員﹚還有各位專家﹚學者﹚先進們先生女士們大家好我是翁小玲民進黨政府當初砍軍公教退休金的理由是政府財政負擔過大如果不改革軍公教的年金就會破產那麼因此要軍公教人員共體時間但是我們的政府是真的沒錢嗎"},{"start":6225.43,"end":6234.652,"text":"蔡政府8年任期特別預算就花了2兆5500億錢基礎建設8400億海空戰力提升2400億新式戰機採購2500億新冠肺炎防疫8400億疫後強化韌性3800億等等加起來就花了2兆5500億而政府規劃增資撥補台電跟勞保基金的金額那麼更是高台電5000億"},{"start":6256.096,"end":6258.137,"text":"臺電5千億老保基金2670億稅收超徵3671億今年估計超過4千億外匯存底高達5千7百多億"},{"start":6271.412,"end":6288.06,"text":"根據最新的富士比統計,2024年最富有的國家排行,臺灣是高居全世界第14名,遠超過日本、韓國。這種富裕的程度,政府還好意思跟軍公教哭窮?"},{"start":6290.097,"end":6304.392,"text":"民進黨打壓軍公教至今已經掠奪了多少錢根據全序部資料107年到112年因為砍掉軍公教人員退休金而節省的經費要全數都挹注到退撫基金是2700多億但是這筆錢多嗎"},{"start":6307.395,"end":6311.918,"text":"就純如我們剛所講的 看看民進黨政府這些年來撥補臺電5000億 撥補勞保基金2670億反觀只撥補了退休基金 當目前為止是294億 這對軍公教人員公平嗎"},{"start":6325.387,"end":6341.958,"text":"民進黨對付軍公教是毫不客氣的為了政治鬥爭、階級鬥爭不惜破壞信賴保護原則犧牲公務員的權益結果造成人民不再相信政府優秀的人才不願再進入到公務的體系根據統計公務員辭職的人數"},{"start":6346.247,"end":6362.044,"text":"從年改之後開始飆升從之前的七八百人提升到現在的兩千五百多人而高普考的報考人數呢也是呈現雪崩式的遞減公務人員自願退休的比例減少借齡退休的比例增加"},{"start":6363.646,"end":6390.957,"text":"不僅僅是如此這些年來我們看到物價是年年攀升但是薪水福利待遇卻變相的縮水只有微幅的調升但是完全不足以去回應物價的攀升再加上不斷調漲的退休金等等的因素造成臺灣的優秀青年根本不願意進入到公務體系而既有的人員也擔心退休生活不保"},{"start":6391.397,"end":6418.684,"text":"所以一直要拖拖到最後藉臨退休那最後就是形成了一個惡性的循環民進黨政府他其實開了政府可以隨時違反承諾變更政策的先例那麼公教人員不僅必須面對不友善不公平的工作環境而且還無法保障他們的退休生活進而降低為人民服務的熱忱最後受害的還是國家和全體公民"},{"start":6420.165,"end":6443.752,"text":"很多人以為說年改的影響只有軍公教但是事實上影響的是各行各業今天政府可以任意的砍軍公教退休金難道明天就不能砍勞工砍國民年金嗎一旦讓政府自意的違背承諾那麼未來哪個產業哪個人還敢相信政府"},{"start":6445.199,"end":6471.022,"text":"本次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的修法充其量只是止血而已那麼將原本不應該刪減的軍公教人員退休金不再繼續扣減而不是溯及既往的全部恢復只是停止遞減軍公教的退休所的替代率而已軍公教人員已經是夠委屈了民進黨政府和民進黨的立委們竟然還在杯葛此案你們還有良心嗎"},{"start":6471.983,"end":6488.433,"text":"最後本席再次呼籲政府的誠信原則信賴保護一旦破壞各行各業都受害請大家不要心存僥倖今天有可能是軍公教明天就是你我隨時都有可能成為政府政策變更的受害者好謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請林志傑教授"},{"start":6500.953,"end":6530.42,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位敬愛的前輩還有今天來與談的各位先進大家好剛剛翁小林委員有提到說這是民進黨政府做的年改我今天來的身份有兩個第一個是我是以法律老師的身份來做第二個我的發言是我是年改應該是受影響最大的一群人因為我的父親是退休公務員我的母親是退休老師我自己本身在大學教書我的妹妹也是大學教授"},{"start":6530.84,"end":6558.073,"text":"我的先生也是大學教授所以各位可以想像年改對我的家庭可以造成多大的衝擊剛剛翁小林委員說年改是民進黨政府做的非常不公不義的事如果各位手邊有手機我請大家google兩個關鍵字第一個馬英九總統第二個年改你會發現年改其實是跨不同的政黨跨不同的執政者同時也是台灣必須要進行的一個議題"},{"start":6559.574,"end":6583.549,"text":"大家Google這兩個關鍵字你可以看到年改革方案正式出爐是什麼時間大家看一下是在2013年當時公視還做了非常大的報導包括馬英九總統親上火線宣布改革必須有三大方向四大主軸來進行而且他自己第一個宣布卸任後放棄18%的優存"},{"start":6585.49,"end":6602.876,"text":"今天說民進黨政府不公不義我感到非常的震驚因為當時馬總統提出這件事情的時候我們全家非常的驚恐因為當時對年改是一個不了解的情形很擔心當時國民黨所提出的年改會造成我們全家經濟上的動亂"},{"start":6604.056,"end":6621.589,"text":"但是後來我們慢慢了解了以後雖然父母親一開始非常的抱怨但是到最後我們全部的人都支持年改因為這四大主軸其實不論是國民黨當初的年改或者是後來蔡英文總統所持續的都是我們國家所需要的"},{"start":6621.949,"end":6642.225,"text":"所以首先我想第一個我個人去年非常意外的被提名參選這個新竹的立法委員在此之前我沒有任何的政黨那主席過去我們也有一些法案的合作我想我的立場是非常公允的這四大主軸是什麼呢第一是必須要終結沒有隨同浮動利率調整的18%"},{"start":6644.766,"end":6668.294,"text":"請領退休金的年紀必須延後因為台灣的高齡化跟少子化所得替代率必須調整計算份額的方式必須調整年改有沒有需要去做檢討的地方以我自己一個受到年改這麼大影響的家庭來說我自己覺得第一個是當時在推動的時候不論是國民黨或者是執政黨是民進黨"},{"start":6669.654,"end":6698.245,"text":"我覺得在論述年改上有傷到公教人員的心這是事實比如說我父親他非常沒有辦法接受當他為了這個國家奉獻了一輩子他為了政府努力從功可是到最後卻被認為是一個肥貓或者是既得利益者我覺得這對公教人員來講是非常不公平的公教人員願意共體時間但是公教人員不可以接受無名化所以如果說在國民黨跟民進黨政府一起"},{"start":6698.925,"end":6723.889,"text":"不間斷連續性的推動年改的過程我覺得這件事情是應該要重新被檢討必須要肯定公務員對於這個國家的付出我也非常同意剛剛前輩提到的我們都經歷過我父親的薪水在非常非常薄的那個時候我們也經歷過當時父親曾經一度考慮離開公務員到薪水可以更好的商業界裡面去發展的年代"},{"start":6724.369,"end":6730.662,"text":"所以如果用公務員就是既得利益者來去污名化公教人員我覺得這是非常不應該的"},{"start":6732.442,"end":6758.934,"text":"第二,如果說今天台灣的年改是一個政府跟我們的公務員之間的契約那麼這個契約是不是完全就不能調整呢?過去三年我曾經擔任金融消費平益中心的董事長處理過非常多金融的紛爭跟保險的爭議保險契約當然有可能變更跟調整比如說在疫情中因應重大的狀況我們可能對於履約有沒有辦法像過去一樣"},{"start":6759.594,"end":6776.684,"text":"以同意承保的這個條件再來承保他就必須有重大情勢變更來調整因為病毒會變形當時我們可能認為他是一個非常嚴重的病毒必須要住院那只要今天一罹患就要罹陪但後來沒有辦法因為他已經變種了"},{"start":6777.865,"end":6802.482,"text":"變成是一個像感冒一樣的病毒如果是這樣子的話整個保險整個醫療系統都會垮掉因此沒有辦法再像當時承諾的那樣的狀況去續約所以今天即使是私人的契約在重大情勢變更或者是有沒有辦法抗拒的事項發生的時候這個著與調整依然是有必要的所以這個是回應前面的先進的一些問題"},{"start":6805.009,"end":6827.991,"text":"國外的情況是如何呢?我們可以看一下在瑞典瑞典採用的是民意賬戶制它基本上沒有單就公務人員本身有一個退休金它是依據個人繳費比例加上基本保障來計算的至於新加坡從1977年新加坡政府就把公部門跟私部門的制度整合成中央的公積金來進行"},{"start":6829.612,"end":6848.081,"text":"必須符合特定條件並按照這些賬戶的用途來領取至於美國﹐美國的社會保險制度是一套全國統一的公共年金體系採用限收限付的制度以現役工作者繳納的稅收支付來當作退休者的年金"},{"start":6849.121,"end":6860.126,"text":"澳洲則是在1992年實施了強制退休儲蓄的制度這樣的制度是確定以提撥制為核心要求僱主強制為員工來繳納退休金它涵蓋的群體包括公務員跟所有職業的群體"},{"start":6866.989,"end":6884.98,"text":"所以各位可以看到其實世界各國關於這個徒續的制度也是一直在變革包括法國也因應高齡化跟少子化必須被迫要去延長這個可以領取退休的這個時間對我來講其實我覺得今天來的意義是非常大"},{"start":6885.06,"end":6885.801,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":6904.764,"end":6932.521,"text":"年改是為了一個國家財政永續發展不得不做的必要之痛我覺得他能夠講出這個充分體現出我中華民國公務員在行政中立跟愛國的一種情操我覺得非常的了不起那年改有沒有需要再做其他的調整呢我個人其實有提出兩點我剛剛也都有寫在我的FB粉絲專頁第一個是公務人員教職之間其實他的屬性跟種類也不相同"},{"start":6933.902,"end":6954.727,"text":"我覺得對於警消來講的福利制度上面目前做的是不夠的尤其是警消它是高危險那當然你可能有類似情況的高危險的行業比如說警察、消防員還有海巡等等像這樣高風險的行業它在私人的保險或者是其他的制度上面要得到支持非常的困難"},{"start":6955.587,"end":6978.201,"text":"你如果去買保險你就知道你身為警察你身為消防員很多保險是沒有辦法跟一般人相提並論他唯一能指望的只有國家所以國家必須承擔起照顧這些高危險行業的公務員的責任因為他在私部門沒有辦法獲得一樣的待遇那我覺得這一點我們是可以考慮的但是如果單獨把警消海巡"},{"start":6979.322,"end":6996.745,"text":"從提撥比例跟所得替代率裡面提出來我覺得很可能會造成年改制度的不公平那其他的這個行業可能也會說我也有危險的地方所以更好的方式恐怕不是去動年金改革而是應該要以其他的包括退伏"},{"start":6997.085,"end":6997.225,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7018.126,"end":7034.982,"text":"所以我其實覺得就這一點上我們可以來重新做審酌第二點我要講的就是台灣既然今天我們講的是少子化跟高齡化那我們擔心說未來的年輕人越來越少這個基金可能會面臨一個破產或者是入不敷出的情形"},{"start":7035.542,"end":7055.465,"text":"那麼應該怎麼辦呢?其實年長者是我們社會最寶貴的資產我們有非常多退休的長輩依然具有非常好的勞動力我們應該要鼓勵這些長輩再次投入就業的市場那這裡就會發生一個問題如果這個市場它的資金依然來自於部分是政府資源"},{"start":7055.885,"end":7073.636,"text":"目前是受到限制的大家去檢索應該都比我更了解目前他能領到的最高天花板就是那個最低薪資所以目前應該是兩萬多那我覺得這一點應該要予以放寬至少應該可以打到公務員的退休的最低所得"},{"start":7074.076,"end":7102.602,"text":"最低保障標準大概是3萬多元那我覺得如果是這樣子的話它可以去補足年改上面備受到損失的缺口二方面可以鼓勵我們退休的長輩重新的投入市場解決市場上面勞動力不足的問題第三經驗的寶貴傳承也可以讓我們的年輕公務員跟年輕的世代能夠去了解受益於我們長輩的付出那最後要講的就是台灣其實是一個"},{"start":7103.871,"end":7105.012,"text":"再次謝謝主席以及謝謝漢森老師能夠讓我先講 謝謝"},{"start":7133.04,"end":7134.642,"text":"謝謝林教授那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":7159.426,"end":7173.739,"text":"最近因為勞動部這個霸凌事件很多人很同情公務員我今天一開始我要呼籲請不要霸凌退休的金公教"},{"start":7175.274,"end":7195.03,"text":"請不要霸凌退休的軍公教也不要只有跟退休的軍公教說財政不好所以很抱歉你們必須犧牲這是臨改的時候蔡英文總統講了好幾次因為國家的財政不好不得已"},{"start":7195.991,"end":7221.125,"text":"所以我們為了退休的金公教人員你們的付出我們跟你說聲抱歉今天我們的財政變好了包括我們退府基金的投資績效也變好了所以我們不用再跟我們的退休金公教說抱歉了也不要說他會要他們再繼續犧牲了"},{"start":7223.787,"end":7242.673,"text":"時代變化了當初為什麼年金改革在105年106年的時候我每一年都短促了一百多億兩百多億甚至有時候上千億可是我給大家看一下我們最新的狀況我統計了最近的財政大家看一下在民國95年到103年那十年的時候我們的財政確實是困難的"},{"start":7253.928,"end":7281.791,"text":"所以剛剛有人講不管是馬英九總統不管蔡英文總統說必須跟我們的退休進攻家說聲抱歉可是我們最近的10年的財政大家知道嗎我們財政不只變好變得非常的好大家看一下從104年到112年你光是統計最近這5年就是年改從107年的7月份開始對不對年改開始的隔年"},{"start":7283.032,"end":7300.358,"text":"一百零八年到一百一十二年這五年有一年還是負兩百二十三億喔大家算一下這五年我們的財政超收了多少錢大家可以把五年的把它加起來一兆四千零三十一億把它平均分給五年一年是兩千八百零六億"},{"start":7311.702,"end":7332.998,"text":"這光是一年喔比最近這五年我們退休金工價的犧牲五年撫卹了多少錢進退休的這個基金2744億期改今天要強調的第一個當初年金改革的國家財政困難的原因已經不在了而且我們財政變得很好"},{"start":7335.796,"end":7354.348,"text":"光是每一年 最近每一年的平均都超收的稅收就足夠去補之前 你砍了他五年的所以還要繼續再砍嗎而且明年的稅收還增加更多上個月財政部已經講了我們明年的財政會多出4千億所以第一個"},{"start":7358.201,"end":7381.912,"text":"國家財政沒有已經當初要犧牲我們的退休金額已經不見了這是第一個第二個我們再看一下還有一個很大的改變以前為什麼要改革因為我們的退撫基金那個小水庫一直在講說錢不夠了錢不夠有很多原因現在有一個非常非常大的改變以前退撫基金的操作不當"},{"start":7383.359,"end":7404.096,"text":"所以他進來的錢非常的少大家看一下最近從108年年金改革以後我們退伏基金操作變好了因為公開透明了不要一直再去覆盤了你看108年收益有10.62109年8.46你看除了有一年付的全部都超過兩位數所以你只要好好維持你的操作"},{"start":7411.477,"end":7426.19,"text":"怎麼會沒有錢呢 大家看一下下一張當初改革的原因是什麼因為之前的前20年我們的金公教把錢給了這個退伍基金之後操作亂七八糟前20年平均值有多少2.79欸當然那時候要做B座年金的改革啊可是大家對照一下最近這5年差了幾倍至少差了3倍"},{"start":7439.921,"end":7458.505,"text":"所以不只是我們的國庫現在開始有錢了退撫基金因為績效的增加退撫基金是有錢的所以包括剛剛年輕的朋友 終生帶來金鍋教代表不要擔心現在基金是有錢的只要管理者不要再亂搞這個地方是有錢的比較以前到現在另外大家也不要擔心這個基金會沒錢啊大家對照一下勞保"},{"start":7466.719,"end":7494.861,"text":"勞退基金最近這幾年我幫大家算了一下109年到114年撥補多少錢3870億所以勞動部的前部長何必這樣說啊撥補就是改革啊我們不反對撥補給勞工可是最近這幾年為什麼經過這樣的公務員的退休基金增加那麼少所以我上次執行的時候我特別拜託我們的前市部部長"},{"start":7496.243,"end":7509.631,"text":"要去力爭啊人家勞動部照顧勞工的時候是這樣子全席部跟考試院有責任都去掙錢一些錢進來一方面投資績效已經增加了一方面透過因為政府有錢政府可以多撥補透普的這個基金所以金公教還有縣子的都不用擔心領不到錢好我們來看一下要解決現在這個問題"},{"start":7527.349,"end":7533.11,"text":"他沒有什麼世代對立的問題啊因為你照顧到年長者退休的你照顧到現代的啊因為整個國家變得有錢了你甚至去看一個台電最近這3年已經要求撥補3000億出去了最近還有2000億啊一堆的弊案 剛剛有人在提陳其義 台電綠能的光是一個光電弊案五六百億就收不上去啊五六百億的那種虧空跑不掉腐爛的支出有多少"},{"start":7556.86,"end":7560.621,"text":"政府的責任不是應該讓弊案不要再發生不要再亂編錢嗎我前幾天上個禮拜五在議員會非常堅持砍了人民的預算250億那250億就可以省下來啊而且維護到我們的健康啊從國民黨到民進黨政府不是講嗎少燒煤啊火力發電裡面的煤要少一點啊你把250億砍掉拿來"},{"start":7587.397,"end":7599.506,"text":"幫勞工幫勞工退休不是很好嗎而且讓我們監開維持啊所以不要擔心沒有錢錢是有的好回到剛剛那張我給大家看一下最重要的我剛剛講我現在講一個現在要解決問題現在解決問題就回到主管機關最專業的一個精算來解決問題那就回到考試院當初在聯改的時候的版本"},{"start":7614.878,"end":7644.318,"text":"我請大家一定要特別注意這件事情當初在年金改革的時候大部分人是沒有反對的除了可憐的親公叫退休人員之外可是我剛剛跟大家講歷史背景跟整個財收狀況已經不一樣了國家變有錢了我們的退撫基金變有錢了績效增加了撥補也可以增加了更重要我們用專業來解決問題什麼叫專業當初提出來最專業的主管機關版本是誰提的"},{"start":7645.796,"end":7661.82,"text":"考試院啊前系部現在部長在這邊當時考試院版本是怎麼樣從80%開始往下一年1%對不對可是當初當年在張連那個立法院表決的時候過的不是立法院專業版本欸他在民進黨多數的狀況之下段怡康高喊之下民進黨那時候有68席"},{"start":7670.526,"end":7694.953,"text":"他大砍他同樣你如果服務滿35年大家看一下你如果服務滿35年就一個軍工教你第一年你80%對不對分10年一年降1%降到70就停了可是後來民進黨主導之下過的不是主管機關考試的版本啊政治的力量進來了他出現了什麼他變成一開始就砍了5%從75開始每一年還降了1.5好那我現在請大家算一下"},{"start":7700.64,"end":7702.741,"text":"請大家算一下 經過這五年經過這五年 一開始降了5%五年一年1.5 已經降了多少12.5% 對不對我們的金工教經過這五年到現在他已經被砍了12.5%了他是不是遠遠已經超過本來考試院的版本了是不是所以第一個回歸專業的精算"},{"start":7729.858,"end":7744.426,"text":"回到原來考試院的版本你現在砍的幅度已經超過原來考試院提的10年的標準了甚至多出了0.25%了第二個你現在國家有錢了所以我會議回到這個版本來 我們再看一下你目前5年一共砍了2774億可是很清楚現在國家"},{"start":7757.213,"end":7775.353,"text":"波普可以解決這個問題你績效改革也可以解決這個問題我最後講一下台灣民眾黨跟柯文哲在競選期間的我們的主張這也是最近我們在審查這個案子除了國民黨提案之外我們的主張柯文哲很清楚的講過"},{"start":7777.437,"end":7794.73,"text":"這個違背 當初這個年輕改革制裁問題違背了信賴保護原則 破壞了法不受既往的法治國的這個基礎私心靈敏 所以現在最重要的是什麼我們現在怎麼去幫助這些退休的金工教他特別提到一個點 就我剛剛講的 多普的問題他說我們以前管理不當他說管理不當 他去看過很多會計師啊"},{"start":7798.922,"end":7818.962,"text":"一說我們政府拿那個退伍基金去投資阿他說你如果蒙著眼睛去買那個前50黨CEO的你這30年來應該至少成長6倍阿你怎麼會沒錢呢結果你等於是好像有點像你拿我錢去賭博輸了還在砍我的這個預算我用最後這句話來政府講話都不算話以後誰要聽你的"},{"start":7819.915,"end":7846.024,"text":"明改改到現在他提出一個很重要的解決方案他一個原則舊的要盡量維持諾言新的要如何來處理該撥補就撥補所以柯文哲在競選期間中大選期間提出這個論點我們大部分民眾黨我們會依行這個方向去走所以我剛剛提到的既然已經改過了現在已經快到12月底了本席強烈的主張"},{"start":7847.935,"end":7873.732,"text":"停止年金逐年調價從明年1月開始第一個他基金已經達標了他砍的幅數已經高過之前考試院提出的版本10年10%了已經達標了已經超過了第二個我們國家變有錢了我們的基金現在投資績效是好的請停止對金公教的繼續再下去改革下去就變成霸凌了"},{"start":7874.292,"end":7885.054,"text":"不要霸凌退休的輕公教停止竹聯在記憶條件謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請那個麻煩羅志強委員代理主席好 我們請吳宗憲委員發言好 謝謝主席"},{"start":7903.891,"end":7904.212,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7918.951,"end":7918.971,"text":"張啟凱委員"},{"start":7938.364,"end":7954.881,"text":"當年你回過頭去看大法官的說法為什麼大法官認為說這個沒有信賴保護的問題大法官是說當然要信賴保護啊但是因為年改他因為公益的需求所以這個改革不會有信賴保護的問題"},{"start":7956.96,"end":7958.741,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":7977.967,"end":7994.229,"text":"他為公益要犧牲其實這個是說不過去的齁我先跟大家講兩個小故事第一個是我還擔任立法委員之前有一次我去花蓮玩坐計程車我去花蓮地院找一個同學然後計程車司機就跟我狂罵他也不知道我是誰他就狂罵說"},{"start":7996.039,"end":8019.001,"text":"執政黨的兩岸政策害入客沒有來他們沒有生意然後本來還有一些退休的公務員會去花東去泡泡溫泉去玩就年改之後連這個都沒有了那其實也就是說有非常多的政客總是把問題限縮在一個小小的點上面他告訴你說這個基金將幾乎會破產但是他沒有告訴你其實就像"},{"start":8019.742,"end":8037.056,"text":"前勞動部長說的撥補也是一種改革啊對不對那為什麼你不去對於公務員的這個部分去做有效的撥補你反而把多收到的稅就還給人民這是為了什麼其實就是為了你的選舉而已他不是為了一個公平正義的存在"},{"start":8038.217,"end":8063.497,"text":"那很多人都在罵先然後最後他做什麼就是搞階級鬥爭嘛就讓勞工跟公務員鬥成一團啊然後告訴你們說公務員或退休公務員都是米蟲就我覺得這個政府是不應該而且這一個野蠻尚未進化的政府那我再跟各位報告另外一件事情我自己年輕的時候那個時候我爸爸他是律師事務所老闆"},{"start":8064.338,"end":8090.813,"text":"他叫我回家做那我是跟他抗拒嘛那月薪他從30萬跟我談到50萬我還是不理他那我去選擇一個司法官當檢察官我當了20年的檢察官一個月就是零十幾萬那為什麼這麼大的數字差距我又願意選擇在公部門好好服務當然一部分是理想第二個部分我考量的是司法官有一個穩定的退休我希望我在退休之後不要再為三餐煩惱那這也是很多公務員當初"},{"start":8092.338,"end":8118.329,"text":"放棄外面高薪去走向公務部門的一個主要原因尤其我們那個時代律師一年入許很少他不像現在入許率比較高所以那個時候的律師本來你在外面就業的薪水就遠高於你在法院或地檢署的薪水所以等到最後大家要退休的時候政府告訴你一句不好意思當初說的都不算其實這個怎麼會沒有"},{"start":8119.687,"end":8140.607,"text":"沒有侵害到你的信賴保護呢所以這個是我一個念法律的人我還是不懂為什麼可以用說這個沒有侵害到信賴保護如果今天這個是發生在私部門我跟你講可能鬧到政府都要出來去處罰那個老闆你說話不算話那你沒有好好保障自己的那個勞工那像我剛剛提到那個計程車跟我講那件事情"},{"start":8141.227,"end":8166.255,"text":"最蠢的政府他狂砍了退休金之後他讓很多公務員退休公務員他不敢正常的消費結果不敢正常消費受害的又是誰小店家他原本他正常的生活模式他必須要因應年改而去做調整的時候他錢他都不敢花那到最後是發生什麼狀況小店家沒有收入稅金繳不出來國家也受害所以這不是蠢到"},{"start":8167.381,"end":8167.561,"text":"公職委員會主席"},{"start":8179.885,"end":8208.8,"text":"怎麼樣要你吞下來就是要公務員：要公務員或退休公務員吞消我覺得這都是不對這也就是為什麼我到立法院之後我拼命的幫警消、公務員還有將來老師我一步一步希望把他調回來調不回來或你要還有其他考量的話至少我們要先停著不讓他再往下繼續看這個是為整個國家整體在著想然後還有一個就是大家都常常講一句嘛他說21世紀最貴的是什麼其實最貴的是人才"},{"start":8209.62,"end":8226.538,"text":"但是你香蕉就只請得起猴子啊那這個時候你需不需要我們公部門請到的人除了對國家滿腔熱血之外你也要給他一個合理的報酬他才願意來嘛否則一流的人才就是他不願意到公部門來服務啊所以"},{"start":8227.523,"end":8241.566,"text":"我們從一個比例上面來看這幾年報考從11年前到現在高普考然後大學應屆畢業生狂減了86%這是一個多可怕的數字"},{"start":8242.887,"end":8261.569,"text":"所以當你國家需要一流的人才來協助我們管理這個國家的時候就你政府的想法是什麼反正一個蘿蔔一個坑有一個缺有一個人來考就好了他也不管你這是幹嘛這個在實質在掏空這個國家所以搞到最後呢"},{"start":8263.188,"end":8288.01,"text":"有人為了遂行自己選舉的利益他最希望造成階級的對立只有階級的對立他才會得到最大的選舉利益但是對這個國家怎麼辦你去看日本你去看韓國看新加坡他們的公務員採基因主義他們希望最一流的人才來治理這個國家那好的政策才會有好的國家方向但是現在政府不是這樣做這完全是違反"},{"start":8288.971,"end":8313.252,"text":"人性的一個做法你用私部門來看好了私部門他要請一流的人才他必須寄予高薪去聘請新的最好的人才來但我們這裡不是除了公務員的薪水本來就偏低之外他還讓現在新進來的公務員看到你看退休的那些老人家反正我就是說話不算話那你怎麼有辦法讓新進的人相信有一天"},{"start":8313.973,"end":8332.955,"text":"他還能夠收到生活上的保障所以現在政府拿在職的公務員去鬥退休的公務員但是這些在職的公務員我跟大家報告也不是笨蛋他會去想說現在你搞一次年改降到現在剩下67.5%那會不會等我退休的那一天剩下50%"},{"start":8334.509,"end":8361.224,"text":"這不是不會存在啊因為我們現在就是有政府就是可以就是亂砍砍砍到現在67.5當年本來考試院的版本地板值是70欸但是他現在要給你砍到60而且是立法院裡面的立法委員的希望把他砍到60而且是現在的執政黨希望砍到60這樣對嗎連考試院的版本都不敢砍到這樣就是政客們在那邊砍其實這是對不起對不起"},{"start":8362.265,"end":8376.883,"text":"退休的公務員也對不起現在的新公務員更對不起這個國家因為他完全不想要一流的人才來治理這個國家他希望很多人一流人才被民間企業挖走那這樣下去之後國家該怎麼辦其實這是我"},{"start":8380.086,"end":8394.116,"text":"一直以來我擔心的很多狀況那我剛有提到國家財政不佳的時候所有的人都能共提時間但是當今天國家財政好的時候那是不是應該要有所改變"},{"start":8395.6,"end":8421.725,"text":"甚至你要去思考最近這幾年通膨這麼嚴重的狀況下為什麼我們還不好好的去想該怎麼做而是就是一句話不能撥補然後講一堆有的沒有的然後搞了一堆譬如說能源政策錯誤之下幾千億就這樣賠光光然後將來還要面對很多高額的碳稅以及高失業率然後企業因為生產成本增加而必須外移政府沒有再給你管這個東西所以"},{"start":8422.967,"end":8449.414,"text":"我實在不認為說把一個年改這個議題把它限縮到只是這個基金能不能夠永續就好像當做一切拿這個來說罪你應該是通盤的去思考國家的財政以及通膨的問題那為什麼我一直強調國家財政要思考因為請各位去看一下大法官的解釋大法官對於年改為什麼沒有損害到信賴保護他就認為說因為是公益需求"},{"start":8450.955,"end":8470.589,"text":"公益需求存在於國家財政有困難的時候你可以叫全國人民大家一起擔但是當國家財政每年超出那麼多今年甚至要到4千億他就還是跟你講不能那這時候我想大家都不能接受最後我還是希望一個健全的制度一個可受信賴的政府這個是非常重要的"},{"start":8471.496,"end":8485.069,"text":"一個健全的制度以及一個可受信賴的政府才是一流人才希望留在公務部門或者是加入公務部門的最大動力我希望這個國家還是"},{"start":8486.087,"end":8509.332,"text":"不是所謂的基金要永續而是國家要永續只有國家有一流人才國家才能壯大壯大的國家才能保護我們不要再給我騙什麼抗中保來講那些五四三然後來總是用那個東西來來掩飾自己錯誤的政策還有為了選舉的利益然後總是拿這個東西來騙人好這邊謝謝各位謝謝各位專家今天來給我們的指導"},{"start":8520.302,"end":8521.923,"text":"很抱歉因為喉嚨有點沙啞所以我講話可能會很難聽"},{"start":8553.625,"end":8576.164,"text":"我只準備了我自己的資料我拿出了我的糧本我的存摺那我這個存摺裡面現在已經改革了第6年對不對那我的年金今年每個月領多少一個月6萬2千塊錢"},{"start":8578.732,"end":8579.292,"text":"民國66年20歲畢業"},{"start":8599.197,"end":8618.59,"text":"1996年滿30年了而且國家告訴我我可以領一輩子啊然後我算了一下我可以這麼樣的退休於是我就退休了然後退休的時候呢我從50歲退休到60歲我總共領了1000萬多一點的退休金那為什麼我要選擇退休"},{"start":8627.756,"end":8628.716,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8651.385,"end":8651.405,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8679.332,"end":8679.652,"text":"退休資遣撫卹法"},{"start":8703.615,"end":8703.975,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8727.612,"end":8752.777,"text":"那我是好手好腳我經驗也很豐富我可以繼續的服務可是這麼好的一個機會這麼好的一個那個退休制度我為什麼不退休呢所以當你問我說我這樣退休好不好我當然說好你知道再給我多少錢我當然說好但是這個國家我們如果考慮到的話這個國家這樣的制度該不該改革"},{"start":8754.734,"end":8778.612,"text":"當然要嘛 對不對所以我從30年前我就一直認為這個國家需要改革當然啦 這個改革的過程一定都是在拉扯一群人他認為要反改革一定有100個200個理由那我認為改革很重要這是我要講的第一個部分"},{"start":8779.557,"end":8800.603,"text":"那麼我的退休金你看我66年到96年這30年之間我沒有繳過任何稅金喔我是一個小學老師退休我沒有繳過任何稅金的情況之下我在做服務這是一點第二點我民國84年以前"},{"start":8804.386,"end":8830.912,"text":"我的退休的退伍提撥是多少錢你知道嗎0沒有任何提撥那85年以後因為有修法所以我開始有提撥提撥一點點沒有很多然後我96年以後我開始領這些年輕那你的錢是誰的大家想也知道嘛就是你們在座的這些年輕人的錢"},{"start":8833.05,"end":8833.11,"text":"民國113年"},{"start":8855.782,"end":8881.915,"text":"我們的稅收他提供了提撥了100億到我們公跟教的退撫基金那114年了114年馬上就到了他提撥多少呢提撥194億如果沒有這麼提撥的話那年輕人很快你們繳的錢很快就被我們領光了"},{"start":8884.222,"end":8905.416,"text":"國家會不會倒大家心知肚明這樣的情況之下我們經過了這樣改革經過了這樣提撥我們現在我們的年金只能夠延遲一個世代還不表示以後不會倒"},{"start":8906.994,"end":8907.014,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8938.192,"end":8945.797,"text":"我們大概還有119年、118年、2029年我們還有每一年要稍微降1.5%那我降到最後會多少呢?我還有5萬多塊一個月"},{"start":8957.842,"end":8977.529,"text":"五萬多塊一個月,那我沒有辦法精算那個精確的數字原因是這樣,是因為我們物價上漲5%或者是每四年檢討一次我們的退休金還會再增加一些所以我估算我五年以後我應該還有五萬五千塊錢"},{"start":8979.392,"end":8979.672,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8999.147,"end":9026.386,"text":"那麼剛剛有很多人講說我們那個時代我們那個時代我要養我爸爸養我媽媽我要養我爸爸養我媽媽那你想一下在蔣經國時代就已經軍公教人員就已經有退休金月退休貨還有18%可是那個時候我的爸爸我的媽媽"},{"start":9027.918,"end":9028.378,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9058.427,"end":9082.381,"text":"那這樣的情況之下不就是我們本來就應該全民都有好處的一個方向嗎這樣的改革為什麼不好呢當然是好的嘛 對不對那我呢被改了一些被改了一些改到後來我可能領到五萬五千塊那你叫我說我不支持嗎我當然認為這樣子非常合理"},{"start":9083.08,"end":9083.6,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":9098.491,"end":9126.871,"text":"而且改革有很多人那個陳水扁當時降我18%的時候如果沒有降的話我的錢比我上幾屆的那個退休的人一年的退休金就領100多萬那退休金後來改了以後我是領到87萬多將近88萬然後馬英九他也在改了最後我是領到"},{"start":9129.544,"end":9147.784,"text":"蔡英文是全面性的在檢討 全面性的檢討才是一個好的那你不能說我們台灣很會賺錢 現在很會賺錢的政府 我們繼續支持他 沒有問題但是不是現在很會賺錢 表示以後都很會賺錢"},{"start":9149.534,"end":9150.815,"text":"陳財人社長發言休息5分鐘"},{"start":9179.008,"end":9200.753,"text":"主席 各位長輩大家好 我是台灣客社存材人 客家人給我一分鐘講客家話 一百年前蔣渭水說台灣是台灣人的台灣 所以我今天我願意"},{"start":9201.98,"end":9224.213,"text":"用很客觀的來探討年金改革的問題我不講個人政黨 不講個人的利益剛才林老師有提 其實我也想講的我最早加入年金改革是馬英九的時候"},{"start":9225.779,"end":9225.899,"text":"財政預算"},{"start":9254.093,"end":9273.211,"text":"我的感覺應該是現職的這個工作人員他們所得到的補助或是得到的照顧應該要多那退休以後的這個是優先順利應該是我認為是應該排在第二順位"},{"start":9275.815,"end":9304.036,"text":"這個原因是怎麼樣呢這國家的未來我經常聽到朋友講你這個未來在哪裡國家的未來是看現在的軍公教的現職或是工人在社會上工作的所以這個是我個人的看法 優先順序那麼這個就講到一個我們新埔以前有一個徐英生他是內政部的次長"},{"start":9305.117,"end":9314.604,"text":"他經常跟我提他說內政部是台灣最大的部會我聽不懂但是我問他為什麼他警察很多"},{"start":9316.226,"end":9337.453,"text":"他是說警察很多但是我從事教育的我說那不對啊那我是教育失敗啊你警察用非常多的人所以這個我教育非常失敗我就製造很多的問題讓你來解決嘛這個許醫生給我一個最大的喚醒我啦齁"},{"start":9340.575,"end":9361.856,"text":"臺灣的治安有問題臺灣的治安有問題他也講你治安是你學校的問題所以我現在要強調的就是我們現在國家財政一定要優先順利讓在職的工作人員來改善他的環境我舉個例"},{"start":9364.815,"end":9380.248,"text":"先進國家的軍人他一定是用最好的設備最好的一個用品比方說他們穿的衣服是用那個蘇格蘭最好的"},{"start":9380.828,"end":9381.248,"text":"臺灣的黑人現在非常多"},{"start":9406.601,"end":9432.544,"text":"大家就不要自我安慰啦包括立法院這個很多都是面臨在前線跟黑衣人有互動的這個就請大家一起來解決黑衣人的問題來讓教育的問題一起來把這個堵住黑衣人的那個產生啦這個比你用其他更多的錢"},{"start":9434.933,"end":9454.32,"text":"更有效力來讓臺灣會更幸福第三個美國的川普這次選上總統最熱門的選選我想大家會否定一定是那個馬斯克"},{"start":9455.75,"end":9464.706,"text":"馬斯克的他的工作他為什麼會被全世界公認或是全美國公認最有既往的一個人他就是政府的"},{"start":9469.389,"end":9469.469,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9486.567,"end":9502.272,"text":"財政的問題所以請大家不要在這裡說那個誰說誰有理誰有理大家用這樣的很客觀的來批判啦來討論這個台灣不然的話我這個達不到效果這個馬斯克他在美國我不曉得這個是新的部門還是叫做績效部"},{"start":9511.348,"end":9529.297,"text":"就是技術效率的部分 這個裡面最重要就是美國的財政的問題 沒錯 大家可以Google去查美國他在解決未來的問題 目前的問題我們台灣要學學人家解決目前的問題和未來的問題"},{"start":9533.598,"end":9558.945,"text":"第四個就是說設備的環境我們應該用最好的設備來讓現在台灣在限職的工作人員有一個未來可以超越可以趕上別人的一個我就想我們現在台灣的這個半導體"},{"start":9561.526,"end":9586.801,"text":"副國巡山張忠謀當時假如不是去美國他今天不會創造好幾兆的經濟產值這個是人家的教育所以我們台灣這個是值得學習的我們要優先要投資的應該是這個方面他可以賺好幾兆為台灣讓大家來分享這個才是有優先"},{"start":9587.902,"end":9591.224,"text":"秩序的這個非常重要的一個考量這個非常這個不是什麼大的道理排擠效果啊排擠效率啊假如說你現在台灣的稅收這個餅就是那麼大假如說你把這個餅分到某一個地方那個就沒有而分到的人"},{"start":9617.738,"end":9634.532,"text":"對台灣你要考慮到分到這個多餅的人對台灣他的產值他最後經過的產值是在哪裡這個一定要注意所以我一再的呼籲請大家憑良心講話真的是憑良心講話要為台灣來考量"},{"start":9646.536,"end":9669.985,"text":"這個退休制度 退休的制度不是只有台灣有 全世界都有甚至他們都比我們都還早 他們做的比我們久 他也是一直在改我想請大家可以所得替代力的問題 我們可以拿來討論 沒有問題這個世界各國的所得替代力 絕對可以來討論 另外一個"},{"start":9671.821,"end":9689.607,"text":"臺灣的要退休的人或是要生活的人,他們的貧富不均也好,或者他所要生活的,那軍公教,我不曉得"},{"start":9691.215,"end":9710.145,"text":"是他的地板比較低還是他的天花板比較高大家可以去找找看可以去比比看在現在的軍公教裡面台灣的軍公教裡面他的替代力守則如果是低於勞工如果是低於現在的工人"},{"start":9712.046,"end":9730.86,"text":"這個20K 30K的這個待遇那你 我想請大家就稍微來心裡就自我安慰一下就不要太去給政府不同的這個一個建議啦謝謝這個"},{"start":9745.003,"end":9767.191,"text":"歐洲四國有一個很好的一個給世界的一個警訊就是歐洲有幾個國家就是政府的財政出問題所以後來他就一直掉下去那麼另外一個現在的財政稅收是非常好大家不要忘記想當年日本"},{"start":9768.715,"end":9795.853,"text":"泡沫經濟到現在快30年還在掙扎所以那個稅收啊你台灣人不是世界最偉大的一個不是你台灣人可以控制的不是你台灣的這個像柯文哲這樣我的IEQ是167啊這個世界上的這個最優秀的這個制度系統或聰明的人啊絕對不是我們自己台灣人我們要"},{"start":9797.062,"end":9804.948,"text":"注意 要稍微防範一下 台灣是台灣人的台灣 大家說幾句公道話 謝謝大家"},{"start":9819.172,"end":9834.882,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9851.666,"end":9875.466,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9888.511,"end":9902.724,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9926.798,"end":9942.766,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9957.759,"end":9962.585,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10006.282,"end":10006.962,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10031.964,"end":10032.764,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":10059.311,"end":10060.132,"text":"發言委員：完整"},{"start":10087.406,"end":10087.926,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":10119.233,"end":10120.436,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10138.37,"end":10138.65,"text":"主席"},{"start":10186.166,"end":10187.547,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家好"},{"start":10210.982,"end":10216.306,"text":"政府不要繼續編織謊言 剝削公教人員的退休金"},{"start":10240.422,"end":10256.291,"text":"退休金之功能是維持退休人員的基本生活需求以退休者不適合跟領得跟現職者差不多"},{"start":10264.874,"end":10283.232,"text":"年長世代把年輕世代的退休金領走當退府基金破產年輕世代領不到退休金我們來看看真相是什麼大家都很喜歡講國際的資料國際的理論我們今天呢就來看看"},{"start":10284.751,"end":10299.101,"text":"諾貝爾經濟學獎得主他是怎麼說的大家來看這本書這本書叫做《再次思考退休金改革》作者是Franco Modigliani他是1985年的諾貝爾經濟學獎得主"},{"start":10302.483,"end":10302.803,"text":"公教人員："},{"start":10318.072,"end":10334.119,"text":"在我們的公教人員的這個退撫心智就是我們現在講的這個退撫制度裡面他就是確定給複製也就是說公教人員他要為政府工作一定的年限才能夠得到政府的退休金支付那支付的標準呢"},{"start":10337.02,"end":10361.032,"text":"是依據工作契約它在職薪資的百分比也就是所謂的所得替代率我再講一次所得替代率換言之它不是叫做什麼基本需求不是跟限職比它跟限職的任何一個職等任何一個級距的在職者都無關"},{"start":10362.274,"end":10366.766,"text":"是跟他當時在自己在職的時候他的薪資待遇來比"},{"start":10373.629,"end":10396.178,"text":"退休金改革作者是2010年的諾貝爾經濟學獎得主前一位跟這一位他們都有幫助許多OECD國家去做退休金改革他說退休金的功能是保險那我要講我們的退撫基金是政府強迫公教人員保的儲蓄險"},{"start":10397.478,"end":10421.924,"text":"然後呢我們政府卻踩了OECD國家一再講的他不能踩的紅線第一個顧主不能管退休基金第二個計劃發起人不能管退休基金因為OECD國家過去就是因為這兩種人管了退休基金之後造成退休基金違約付不出來各位"},{"start":10422.984,"end":10445.351,"text":"我們的政府是我們的退休計劃的發起人我們的政府又是我們的雇主他同時又還是退府基金的管理者他踩了紅線但是請問當OECD國家他們全部都知道這個問題他們改革的過程裡面包括第一步政府退出管理我們的政府退出了嗎沒有啊"},{"start":10448.063,"end":10449.064,"text":"好 那我們看下一頁"},{"start":10474.161,"end":10493.879,"text":"退撫基金破產是由於政府管理退撫基金不當恭喜退撫基金前20年黑箱作業弊案連連投資收益率只有2.76%他過去的那些虧損過去的那些不當操作有給這些參加計畫的公教人民一個明白嗎好"},{"start":10498.331,"end":10517.76,"text":"既然他是一個保險 我說退府基金管理委員會 就是現在退府基金管理局的前身他其實就是一個儲蓄險的保險機構 那當他收到了這麼多公教人員的保費的時候 他不是應該去努力投資嗎"},{"start":10519.82,"end":10526.524,"text":"為什麼當他投資失利當他黑箱作業當他弊案連連結果呢卻告訴我們說你公教人員你這些保護全部我要砍你們的錢當初我說的都不算怎麼會是這樣子呢"},{"start":10538.838,"end":10567.113,"text":"第四講OECD國家沒有一個OECD國家當他們在改善改革之後他們沒有把前面的蓋瓜承受智力跟我們國家一樣他發現他們前面他們真的辜負了那些計劃參與者於是他們在1980年改革的時候他們直接切斷後面全部用確定提撥制他前面的就蓋瓜承受基本責任"},{"start":10568.177,"end":10581.663,"text":"所以為什麼他們不會有世代問題不會有族群問題因為他們概括承受而且他們就很認分的概括承受他就知道說他要去處理缺口 縮小缺口剛才我有聽到有一位先進他說那個保險啊 如果說我們這樣保險是是沒辦法買到那樣的給付的我要說一句話"},{"start":10597.358,"end":10603.814,"text":"商用儲蓄險是自願買的退撫基金這一個儲蓄險公教人員是被強迫的"},{"start":10605.083,"end":10626.392,"text":"第二點沒有人會因為轉換工作跑道而會讓他的儲蓄險承受重大損失但是退府基金會公教人員會今天公教人員他如果辭職的話他的退休的這個儲蓄他就會遭受重大損失難道自由是自由不是無價的嗎"},{"start":10630.353,"end":10641.048,"text":"好我在這邊再說一次全特盟的訴求過去退休人員受夠了每次就來對退休人員扣帽子"},{"start":10642.27,"end":10657.657,"text":"退休人員要的不多當時政府承諾什麼你就概括承受什麼所以政府要概括承受經營退撫基金不當的全部責任不要再一直編織各種的謊言各種的話術來美化自己當時前20年的錯誤我再講一遍"},{"start":10664.6,"end":10683.656,"text":"如果前20年退撫基金能夠善用那時候退休人員還很少的時間好好的做投資他以國際的標準7%來看的話他在105年的時候他應該他的資金只要破1兆以上可是事實上他當時只有5000多億這個東西不用還給公教人員公道嗎好"},{"start":10691.82,"end":10714.939,"text":"第二個訴求政府應該停止編織謊言停止刻意扭曲退休金的定義和給付不要再製造社會動盪OECD國家他們每一個改革他們都改一次就徹底沒有不斷地製造社會動盪可是我發現我們國家非常奇怪每次製造社會動盪的都是從政府開始不知道為什麼"},{"start":10719.741,"end":10734.752,"text":"我再講一次政府如果是比照智利我切斷之後我就概括承受而且不用再用破產來恐嚇大家為什麼當他們切斷的時候當智利切斷的時候他就已經知道他的資金池一定會用盡"},{"start":10737.225,"end":10765.794,"text":"所以他想的就是撥補的問題他想的就是縮小缺口的問題我再講一次在之前那個除菁新智在修法的時候我在裡面就已經提出了好幾次的方式可以用縮小缺口的方式去處理這個撥補是全市部自己不要的是全市部自己否決的自己否決所有縮小缺口的方案自己否決所有能夠降低成本撥補方案是不是應該要自己負責"},{"start":10766.817,"end":10769.882,"text":"不是叫這些無辜的配合政府的退休人員負責這樣對嗎?"},{"start":10774.5,"end":10798.288,"text":"第三個訴求政府應該立即停止公教退休金逐年遞減還給公教人員公道剩下30秒我也不知道今天的公聽會之後政府又會再編織什麼樣的謊言再出來不過沒有關係反正呢我向來就是一路一路過來你編織什麼謊言我打什麼謊言以上謝謝"},{"start":10804.161,"end":10807.848,"text":"好謝謝那下一位我們請林秋竹副理事長發言"},{"start":10824.639,"end":10847.717,"text":"吳委員 還有部長 人事長 還有各會理事長 還有各位先進及所有在座關心所得 退休金所得替代問題的好朋友們 大家好我們全國公務人員協會是現職公務人員所組成的協會 僅代表現職公務人員表達心聲然後來 下一頁喔 這裡"},{"start":10861.564,"end":10871.59,"text":"有關退休金改革逐年剔減到所得替代率60%"},{"start":10876.68,"end":10899.555,"text":"不當及應與改善澄清之處我們在這裡面剛才有講過一些屬於政策不當的問題第一個是財政不佳是個假議題第二個拿公教跟勞工來做比擬是不當的比擬然後年金年改目前年改指"},{"start":10900.456,"end":10922.088,"text":"重砍公教：對於軍跟牢並沒有一致的對待這也是不平等的對待再來就是為採取具有專事人員的考試院的版本還有違反信賴保護原則這剛才很多先進還有立委們他們都有做充分的表達我就不再說明"},{"start":10923.874,"end":10935.292,"text":"有關澄清或是我應該講說我是表達跟訴求我們限制公務人員我們不反對改革我們只是希望繼續不要再繼續減額我們反對不當的汙名"},{"start":10939.688,"end":10968.349,"text":"剛才我們有那個陳漢森先生有講過他享有很好的退休待遇可是呢那個時候是因為他有18%我們現在的限職人員已經沒有18%其實我們反對我們也支持終結18%所以我們不反對改革我們是希望不要再繼續減額希望第二個是"},{"start":10970.168,"end":10972.769,"text":"建構聯囊的政府必須要使公務人員無後顧之憂"},{"start":10986.275,"end":11010.573,"text":"政府效能、經濟跟競爭力的評比都名列前茅這些都應該歸功在各界公務員經經業業、陸力重工所累積來的因此要有聯盟的政府前提就要有一群聯盟的公務員我們希望退休金是讓我們可以無後顧之憂讓一流的人才來治理國家留住一流的人才"},{"start":11016.304,"end":11017.165,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":11036.236,"end":11056.782,"text":"五年內應該就制度以財政永續發展來做定期的檢討所以現在是一個很好的時機再來就提到所得替代率已經目前我們累計到現在已經所得替代率已經降到67.5已經到了考試院當年所提的70%的版本還有呢"},{"start":11061.943,"end":11088.655,"text":"我們應該讓這個時候若停止所得替代率的降低還可以讓年改的副作用就可以煞車剛才有很多專家學者也提到年改的副作用我們以前政府沒錢的時候要我們軍公教人員要共體時間現在我們的國家財政良好的時候是不是要考慮到要回饋我們"},{"start":11094.164,"end":11113.963,"text":"在有關生存權的保障這個議題來講過去幾年消費者物價指數的增加都3到4%左右然後這已經嚴重衝擊退休工人員的消費支出那110年到112年"},{"start":11117.065,"end":11142.987,"text":"公務人員退撫基金的提撥率從12%提升到15%每年增加1%對限制公務人員也造成實質的減少近年來政府雖然有調整公務員的薪資但均都是站在3%到4%之間由於通膨還有提撥率的提高退休金的剔減等因素調薪的效益根本看不到如果調薪能夠"},{"start":11144.364,"end":11171.44,"text":"調到對限職人員來講能夠調到6%或6%以上這個才是一個實質的反應另外呢我們查雅護的民調暫不贊成停止公務員所的替代率繼續降低我們看那個數字贊成的占了51.7%所以民意上也是站在贊成這個方向"},{"start":11179.241,"end":11179.441,"text":"低階高齡公務人員"},{"start":11188.226,"end":11217.208,"text":"退休金的目的是要達到安養蓄估我們不是要自負我們不是要過得很富裕的生活就是要安養蓄估如果這個低階高齡的公務人員來講他們年老病多對於未來知道他們的退休金是未來越來越少的時候他們是會恐慌的是會不確定的對他們來講是一種臨時如果你知道你未來的薪水未來的收入是增加的你就會"},{"start":11218.61,"end":11244.166,"text":"趕去消費就像剛才吳委員講的為什麼退休人員不去花蓮旅遊了因為他知道他越來錢會越少了他就會恐慌這個是一個心理的因素所以呢重點是退休金要達到安老續孤的目的不然弱勢的退休老人也是社會的負擔這也是會成國家的負擔不是說只有權序部的負擔只有基金的負擔然後我們再來講"},{"start":11249.462,"end":11266.187,"text":"這個停止所得替代率降低對國家財務的影響如何因應我們在這裡呼籲強調的就是從兩個方面來講兩個方面來加強一個是加強基金經營績效我們退撫基金"},{"start":11268.459,"end":11292.966,"text":"一百零一年到一百一十年十年的平均收益只有四點一趴叫公保勞保其他各大基金經營績效常常見賠莫作如果基金的稀釣基金的報酬率能夠達到五點五趴以上依照精算報告就足以自應未來五十年的基金收支平衡然後再根據同一個報告"},{"start":11296.859,"end":11312.637,"text":"112年個人專戶退休制度新制成立後,新進的公務人員將歷令基金,我們舊有的基金將提前4年用盡。所以,如果政府每年撥補100億,也僅可以維持到140年也要用盡。"},{"start":11320.617,"end":11347.038,"text":"老保基金近兩年每年都撥補了130億那如果政府能夠對公務退補基金依照精算的報告如果每年能夠撥補521億就是公務人員部分285億消失的部分236億這樣子的基金也可以50年不倒"},{"start":11355.56,"end":11378.159,"text":"那停止所的替代力會不會引起世代的公平世代不公平的爭議我們要強調的是基金破產不等於政府破產政府是國家的雇主我們不能把雇主的責任通通放在基金的身上那根據107年的改革"},{"start":11380.757,"end":11407.458,"text":"目標那時候的改革只能維持一個世代所以政府口口聲聲說是世代公平但是對於20年後的基金應用的應用對應應對策卻從來未提所以我們主張解決之道就是要加強加強經營績效跟依法逐額多補才是解決之道"},{"start":11409.332,"end":11409.352,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11434.827,"end":11435.007,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11463.334,"end":11464.294,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11483.614,"end":11504.046,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家好我是臺北教育工會 李慧蘭理事長我們想說這次的退休金改革 又要召開這次公聽會 非常的感謝我們五位委員我們要求第一個就是要專業的對話什麼叫專業的對話 就用數據講話 你不要雙標"},{"start":11509.19,"end":11511.791,"text":"拒絕政治霸凌政府對軍公教人員霸凌拒絕欺騙與誤導"},{"start":11530.734,"end":11540.779,"text":"全序部給我們的這個資料的時候我發覺﹖很多的什麼細節藏著魔鬼所以我在這也特別的贊成就是有關於藐視國會法還有那個什麼國會罪還有一個叫吹哨者保護法這個部分呢必須要讓我們的所有的不管你是當政務官也好或者事務官你必須要依據專業事實來講話不要為你的政治目的而遮掩很多的事實"},{"start":11559.963,"end":11586.911,"text":"我們的政府在105年就一直在喊破產但是到現在還在喊破產但實際上很多老百姓根本就不知道中共叫年改的真相是什麼因為我們的視聽媒體的那個什麼留言力度跟恐怖程度真是讓我們覺得很害怕真相會變成什麼很像是變成錯誤的反而錯誤的很像是變成真相這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以我們的政府一直在講國家要破產 錯"},{"start":11588.311,"end":11588.572,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":11602.571,"end":11603.252,"text":"公教退休金．提升退休所得替代率"},{"start":11623.271,"end":11625.872,"text":"限職教師第67條建議至少每2-3年檢討公教的退休金我們就看CPI指數來做一個調整第4個現況的部分我們來看其實限職已經調整每個月的提撥給政府的錢已經從12-15%繳的錢大概是勞工的5倍"},{"start":11646.596,"end":11646.616,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11660.086,"end":11684.908,"text":"退休老人每月被砍的養老金已經是限職的三倍所以人家一直講說這些年輕人要養老人家 錯了從這些退休老人的身上砍的錢是限職的三倍但是這樣砍對限職教師 對退休老師來講都是不公允的這就是造成了職業別的對立是用什麼 是用媒體來抹黑的是非常的糟糕 一個政府不可以做這種事情"},{"start":11685.589,"end":11708.121,"text":"第3政府必須確實依法依經算報告撥補金額到退補基金裡面這樣就可以永續為什麼不做就好像民進黨前書院長還有前勞動部何部長支持說撥補就是改革第4今年退補基金加這是我們要讚許的為什麼加很簡單105年之前不知道在幹什麼只有2.76%"},{"start":11711.323,"end":11725.731,"text":"但是自從年輕改革之後 大家的眼睛發覺到 哇 原來我們的退撫基金政府都有亂 亂 亂什麼亂操作 甚至於弊案一堆所以大家的眼睛都看退撫基金 你看退撫基金從106年之後到現在它的績效有多好雖然碰到那個烏鴉戰爭可能有複數 但是從這裡我們就可以發覺到 不是不能做 而是你不去做"},{"start":11734.901,"end":11758.593,"text":"你做不好之後回頭來砍你的僱員你這個政府當僱主是怎麼做的那我們接下來呢我們看公教退休金因為低所得替代率被砍殺公保只能一次就把他領走所以剛才我們有兩位教育前輩很抱歉啊你是教育人員你來這兒是公務人員的那個什麼公聽會你沒有辦法幫公務人員來講話的話你用你的那個退休金來講是什麼意思"},{"start":11760.677,"end":11760.857,"text":"公聽會：完整"},{"start":11791.918,"end":11799.442,"text":"第6個公教退休金已經低於OECD所得替代率平均的53%你看全序部的資料還是一樣亂給遮蓋OECD國家普遍具有良好的社會福利提供完善的老年生活照顧第7個我們來看像那個初期2006年OECD的那個一個專家學者叫辛炳龍"},{"start":11816.132,"end":11827.515,"text":"他也去參考OECD國家回來之後他說就薪資所得平均水準的毛所得替代率來看最高的前三名依序為印度的99.3%新加坡的89.9%以及中國的77.9%"},{"start":11833.379,"end":11856.274,"text":"你們老師拿什麼最低的要不然就是把它做平均數那你為什麼不講那個多的呢所以我剛才那個何雲峰補教的那個老師我跟你講你現在是年輕你還沒有去養你的父母更沒有去養你的爺爺奶奶所以你還沒有到那個年齡你不要說你們這些老人拿走我們的錢我們什麼時候拿過你的錢你有沒有繳稅"},{"start":11859.162,"end":11859.322,"text":"國家總預算案"},{"start":11889.133,"end":11891.955,"text":"投資報酬率從2.82那時候來講2010年到2015年我們所看到的資料大部分是政府提供的到現在我們的退付金其實收益率已經到4197.67億"},{"start":11911.586,"end":11916.91,"text":"當初我們105年我們的本金投資的是多少5629.96億都快要去賺一個資本了不是嗎那105年民進黨呢他說喊政府破產所以他先砍了軍公教那國家破產退福基金這些理由都沒有了你還要繼續砍嗎"},{"start":11929.079,"end":11952.609,"text":"沒有道理 是不是所以呢我們希望政府拿出你的良心啊不說集既往信賴保護原則是政治殺戮下的一個笑話嗎所以呢我們希望在這裡頭也要跟大家講一下84年之前的恩己志其實跟退撫基金一點關係都沒有為什麼你們在做退休金改革的時候要砍這些84年跟退撫基金一點關係都沒有老人的錢呢"},{"start":11954.301,"end":11959.963,"text":"就像剛剛那個前輩講的所以有一些觀念是不太對我在這邊稍微糾正你我們來看105年的評估報告裡面就講過我們的退撫基金在第8條就有講過管理條例第8條它只有兩個所有的法律都只有兩個那是什麼呢就是當你基金不足的時候第一個調整費率限制教師已經調整提撥的費率了"},{"start":11981.832,"end":11983.734,"text":"政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任"},{"start":12009.393,"end":12012.214,"text":"為什麽?你說 今年撥補100億 明年撥補194億 總共是294億那也是錯的 為什麽呢?因為這個是撥補 因為成立另立新基金的那個錢所以到現在每一年 我們政府應該要給什麽?"},{"start":12025.72,"end":12025.88,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹"},{"start":12044.803,"end":12046.785,"text":"金酸報告不能拿來當作一個操作的手段在這裡頭我就要想到共同題目的部分你從老人還有縣子教師那邊拿的錢一個是拿來預租到退撫基金"},{"start":12062.06,"end":12067.024,"text":"我們的35%的責任已經過了 都已經做到你政府這幾十年來 你的65%的責任你做到了沒有 你一個都沒有做到所以每一條法令都是告訴你要撥補 要撥補 要撥補那接下來呢 我們就希望 就是剛才我講的就是還沒有撥補 我們希望呢 政府不要在那邊騙人你對杜甫基金原來的缺口是根本沒有在補的"},{"start":12086.438,"end":12088.679,"text":"公聽會上午的會議時間要持續進行至所發言均結束為止下一位我們請喬治華教授發言"},{"start":12117.753,"end":12124.585,"text":"因為時間的關係,那你那個書面給我們,我們這邊會做統整,這樣整合下來"},{"start":12128.09,"end":12156.255,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家早安今天因為時間的嚴肅 還有各位都提了非常多的一些看法那我先講我的身分 我在動物大學財富工程 精算數學系那所以我今天來參加這個的時候 我是用學理的方式來看那我也提了非常多先進來講 就個人的觀點 或者是一個整個的你們的職業的觀點上面 還有過去形狀那我提出下面的一些看法 我就用學理的上面來看"},{"start":12158.24,"end":12178.733,"text":"第一個來講剛剛很多的我們的先進都講到了我們退休金包括了一個所謂確定的給付制跟確定的提撥制當然我們公務人員來講是確定的一個給付制剛剛很多先進有講到35%我們自己負擔65%是一個雇主在負擔那雇主當然就是我們的政府"},{"start":12179.373,"end":12203.036,"text":"我剛剛也會提到的非常多的說我的社會保險跟我的商業保險那實際上來講也是一樣的我們就以商業保險來講的時候當我的承諾沒有達到的時候要誰來負責呢當然就是他的一個經營者來做負責人這個點是必須要做釐清的那所以我們可以了解就是說當初來做改革改革是碰到了一個困難碰到的困難碰到困難就要改革"},{"start":12203.616,"end":12229.866,"text":"改革之後是不是就開始一帆風順當然不是因為我們知道說我們的經濟環境一直在做改變所以我也覺得說並不是一定所謂的改革跟非改革要這樣子的一個劃分而是說一個大的變革之後後來會隨著我的環境的變化會要持續的調整所以我比較強調是要持續的調整持續的調整包括我現今的環境的變化"},{"start":12232.748,"end":12248.003,"text":"非常多提到我的精算報告精算報告每三年編制一次每三年大幅度編制做了非常多的試算但是我也提醒各位在做試算的時候都是根據去年年底的時候基本的資料往後做試算"},{"start":12254.659,"end":12267.369,"text":"那麼它事實上什麼時候會用慶那什麼會不足都是根據當時禁止的情況下了非常多的精神來假設那這些東西在未來我們在執行當中到了明年的時候它會不會變化當然會做變化"},{"start":12269.229,"end":12290.444,"text":"那所以有各個年度的所謂精簡的一個報告那所以剛剛所謂各位先進提了非常多的方向我覺得那個都會值得會在所謂的精簡報告裡面來做細部的調整那所以我們也不要太多所以那個時間會用好或什麼時候結束你會再看下次的上一次的精算報告到下次精算報告中間是不一樣的"},{"start":12292.599,"end":12316.782,"text":"這會變動的,那這個變動也給我們一個警示,我覺得金鑽堡最大是給我們的主管單位一個調整的機會那也許來講說,我現在我是不是在維持我的計量的用耗的時間那再加上我們是一個水庫概念,這個最大的問題,我們的活水來源當我們現在新的公務人員來講,他用自己的個人專戶制度的時候"},{"start":12317.242,"end":12343.531,"text":"所以我們在原來裡面來講說不足的部分那這塊部分我們是要去做解決那所以解決方式怎麼辦呢那應該是還是我們投資績效我們能夠把它好好的運作這是一個方向第二個我覺得講的說剛才也有委員有提到也有先進來提到就是說我用CPI來做調整的時候真的是不能夠忽略到我高齡社會我們退休人員都在65歲以上"},{"start":12344.051,"end":12365.422,"text":"所以他的需求上面來講 完全去採取CPI的時候我覺得是不足的 包括了醫療的成本包括我們現在的醫療科技的一個改變我們現在來講說 我們平均男生活到80歲 女生活到85歲但是當我們的醫療科技改變的時候 未來被強迫活到90歲被活到100歲的情況之下 會有的"},{"start":12367.823,"end":12389.644,"text":"所以我們看這個調整是要找重點,我覺得剛剛有很多先進,包括委員有提到說我調整的時候,我們要給我們健康的漁民這些東西是你要來做的,我覺得是請大家共同來做另外來講就是說,我們錢已經按照這個制度來講的時候"},{"start":12392.096,"end":12414.41,"text":"部分可能要靠自己對退休人員來講自己要靠自己那我是來自於私立學校私立學校自己的一個教育的一個我們退休金的制度我們有自己提撥我們自己的嘛能夠一個投資我們的選擇所以我也覺得說可不可以再考慮就是說我們現在有了退休人員他已經拿到了我一個退休金的情況之下我很顯然未來是不足的部分"},{"start":12415.37,"end":12437.105,"text":"外部組的部分有沒有辦法我們提供一個平台投資平台讓他能夠達到一個保守的或者是一個比較好的一個投資的績效我一方面來講我們會督促我們的基金會我們來投資他有更好的效率那另外一方面我們自己要做一點事情我們自己的部分來講我們投資但是我們的平台我們大家比較欠缺"},{"start":12437.945,"end":12457.499,"text":"所以可以仿照說政府來建立一個基本的平台一個保證的最低收益然後去往上你看到自己的風險程度然後去補足你這些所謂的被改革當中所欠缺的部分所以來講就是說確實很多先進講說這個影響不只是只有"},{"start":12458.3,"end":12476.015,"text":"影響到個人嗎我們當然老人化各位退休的老人化以後呢那會影響到什麼如果自己我對未來照顧我的錢不夠我活得過久我的錢不夠的時候那這個問題絕對不是只有我自己的問題而是整個社會的問題到時候再有更大的力量更大的一個"},{"start":12476.916,"end":12494.31,"text":"方式來做一個解決其實都會花費的成本更高那我另外在最後要講到一個我們剛剛有在講到說我們的信賴原則我們是不是可以著雨調整剛剛有提到當我們一個特別的情況之下比如說大家都經過了我們的疫情期間"},{"start":12495.331,"end":12516.181,"text":"當我們的報單、我們的條款在做改變的時候那各位不知道說那麼這些問題看起來是否都解決掉了事實上是並沒有的因為它牽涉到了嘛其他各位還沒有看到的那這些還在持續的解決那我花費了更多的一個方式所以我來講就是說我們在做改變的時候在一個改化的時候我們會逐步來做"},{"start":12517.722,"end":12532.413,"text":"那麼我們精算報告來講的時候呢我們在個別的一個精檢報告裡面我覺得說可以再多做一些不同的試算所以這個政策的調整絕對不會是一次就到位了不會 會持續持續再做變動那限於時間因素 非常謝謝各位 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們下一位請王傑理事長"},{"start":12548.352,"end":12568.706,"text":"各位委員、官員、先進前輩大家好我是台灣鐵路產業工會理事長王傑今天很榮幸來到這邊發表一些關於公務人退休資遣撫卹法修正的意見承認我之前寫過一篇專欄意見就是關於我不怎麼認同退休撫卹也就是年金改革會加深世代對立甚至擴大貧富差距這件事"},{"start":12569.406,"end":12582.857,"text":"因為我可以很有資格的說我就是代表正在退府就職領著低薪的年輕世代公務員甚至在座各位與會的公務同仁多半都超過我的薪資因為我的薪資工作了10年才勉強4萬多"},{"start":12584.929,"end":12603.116,"text":"我必須要先指出公務人員對於年改的憤怒不單是源自於年改本身是從在職期間就開始累積從整個政府待遇與信奉制度的設計既不穩定又充斥著滿滿的N級立場軍公交待遇審議委員會一個基層代表都沒有條心全看僱主態度"},{"start":12604.136,"end":12621.535,"text":"到近期勞動部一連串的公部門霸凌事件還有就業安定基金的貪污濫用徹底撲霧了國家長年以來對於公務員勞動條件從現職到退休都沒有顧及而且財政紀律紊亂的事實因此我認為有更重要的事情值得大家去重視"},{"start":12623.345,"end":12635.44,"text":"身為一個10年的基層公務員我當然擔心自己繳的年金無法在未來領到但我也重視老一輩的公務員奮鬥了一輩子所得退休金是否可以政府的一句話就改變領取機制"},{"start":12636.621,"end":12664.193,"text":"要知道一個基層的台鐵公務員奮鬥20多年下來薪資碰頂只有5萬8千多元退休後所得替代下來只有3萬出頭如果你是工作40年的話也只有4萬出頭我想問現在過活就已經很困難了何況是二三十年過後3萬出頭是可以吃什麼飯還是可以應付日常開銷嗎年金改革應該是一個持續檢討的事情而不是一朝成定局"},{"start":12665.339,"end":12691.977,"text":"我這邊分享我自己個人例子我的實際實領薪資4萬1千多元我太太也是台鐵公務員她也是大概快4萬我們這樣呢住在從我本來是住在天母後來我結婚後搬到蘆洲蘆洲的租金已經高到3萬多塊我租不下去所以我最後搬到了巴黎巴黎可以說是新北市的偏鄉吧到台北車站上班就要一個小時"},{"start":12693.098,"end":12704.986,"text":"而租金便宜的也要兩萬塊就是我目前大概兩萬塊的租金請問我們這樣薪資低微的基層公務人員是可以應付這樣子的需求嗎"},{"start":12706.414,"end":12734.579,"text":"而且我們也要知道說現在的公務體系已經逐漸崩壞很多基層公務人員都是做不下去為的是什麼不就是薪資低落退休更沒有保障嗎甚至連公務人員體系最優渥的司法人員都面臨著書記官離職不斷只能找職代來代替打字請問這樣的司法品質會有保障嗎更不用說公務人員的報考人數逐年降低各單位都是人力不足加班過勞甚至現在面對職場霸凌"},{"start":12736.892,"end":12765.916,"text":"我想請問政府有針對這些第一線的公務人員的狀況有所因應嗎還是持續捍衛著這些標語擴大貧富差距惡化國家財政我們都知道政府拿著退撫基金勞保基金勞退基金進行投資虧損了不會說賺錢了就會做一張海報寫我幫勞工賺了一萬塊出來縮嘴請問公務人員假如退撫出現問題的時候政府有需要負責嗎還是直接推給一句老的領太多年輕的領不了"},{"start":12766.736,"end":12788.131,"text":"這不是這麼一翻兩瞪眼的事情也不是政府可以這樣輕鬆製造世代對立的理由更重要的是現今的基層公務員薪資低落政府也沒有想要解決我剛剛講台鐵資位人員起薪是38K而我剛剛說的工作20多年最高58K可是如今今年公布的薪資中位數是5萬5千多元啊"},{"start":12788.951,"end":12799.012,"text":"所以我們的基層公務員就已經是民眾薪資的低端了也難怪我們台鐵的離資率很高人力嚴重不足今年公司化根本就是個假議題"},{"start":12801.247,"end":12823.568,"text":"當我這樣的公務人員的薪資是民眾薪資的低端的時候請問這是正常的國家嗎一個國家的文官體系可以縱容這樣的低薪存在學區部長甚至可以告訴大家退休所得會比債值所得甚至有些超過有些甚至到八九成以上請問部長就算我一路做到退休我拿不到四萬的退休金請問這叫什麼退休保障"},{"start":12824.505,"end":12843.74,"text":"再看看我們的台鐵董事長總經理在公司化後優先為自己調薪額40%月領20多萬但是基層的職位人員就是38K聯絡的10年薪資就是4萬出頭請問這要怎麼使年輕公務人員買房生兒育女根本不可能有也是咬著牙過活根本不可能"},{"start":12843.98,"end":12856.635,"text":"不可能看到20年後有什麼未來可言所以如果不調整基礎的薪資待遇退休後所得替代下來的退休金是不可能活得下去的活得下去活得滋潤的都只有董事長總經理這些酬庸人士"},{"start":12857.748,"end":12883.648,"text":"政策的調整跟修法需要更專業的人士但不可忽視的是基層民眾跟公務員的心聲我想基層公務員的過勞低薪是不爭的事實然後我們的結婚津貼、子女教育補助費給予的兩個月是指的是本縫不是月薪十領而基層公務員的本縫只有一萬多塊這個是什麼戒嚴時期的標準嗎跟現在一般勞工是有著很大的差距的"},{"start":12885.728,"end":12912.034,"text":"每個公務員都是如此甚至司法官也是請問政府有打算調整修法嗎不然怎麼解決少子化的問題因為這種的薪資跟補助誰要生小孩更別說還有各種的問題像是育嬰留庭6個月給的也是本縫的八成薪死領大概也是一萬一千出頭還有賠產價過少甚至請假困難這些惡劣的職場環境不用多做什麼就是一個紮紮實實的職場霸凌了"},{"start":12914.275,"end":12943.255,"text":"我希望諸位先進能正視基層公務員的問題妥適處理退休人員的所得替代調整代表台鐵低薪員工以及公部門職場低薪公務員我認為應當趁這次機會請執政黨好好檢討年金改革到底是以退休保障為前提還是發的出錢為前提像我這樣的低薪公務員絕對不是你們口中領五萬多的人如何讓我們的退休生活獲得保障請藉著這次機會好好提出解方同時要提醒在野黨"},{"start":12944.136,"end":12964.249,"text":"停職所得替代率下降,固然大家樂見,但沒有挹注或撥補如何找錢延續年金,目前看不出有適當的方案,若沒有,最終只是加速年金破產若真心要保障公務員,請務必提出延續的方案,否則只是將年金改革作為政治鬥爭的話題,留下世代正義的問題,讓基層之間繼續弱弱相殘"},{"start":12965.427,"end":12988.262,"text":"雖然我相信如果政府的資源可以拿去蓋高鐵延伸、台鐵的高架地下化還有前瞻建設這些動輒幾千億的預算都能豪值出去卻不能做到照顧退休以及現職公務員是勞有所終、壯有所用又有所長只是在告訴國人這個政府只能顧得了現在幫不了未來也告訴所有現職未來的準公務員"},{"start":12989.583,"end":12995.507,"text":"現在要你復出等你退休了在國家大義的面前你就要犧牲更多謝謝各位"},{"start":13017.987,"end":13041.909,"text":"主席還有各位立法委員還有列席的這個官員還有我們議會的寫者專家我今天總共有7點報告那我的報告跟大家的可能有一點不一樣第一個我就從法的著手大家來看我第一點報告就是刻意減低"},{"start":13043.888,"end":13064.159,"text":"退休守則替代率從75減到60這個不符退撫法的基本規定我們在退撫法裡面的29條第一項就明擺了規定每做一年我給你2%30年最高的話35年就75%但是你知道"},{"start":13073.328,"end":13096.446,"text":"這個只是一個餅能夠享受這個比例的只有民國107年7月1號跟108年12月31號退休的人才有這個機會其他的人這個是一個餅沒有人享受得到這個標準列在那邊那你年改啊為什麼要低於這個標準來做"},{"start":13098.632,"end":13126.898,"text":"第一個為什麼你改的時候你就把它你要降的就就把它列進去嘛為什麼畫一個餅在那邊呢那我今天要報告齁最後降到說其實我降到60到30啦齁30%那大家齁剛才啊都沒有提到所以實質上就是說你退退休人員受到的影響"},{"start":13128.208,"end":13153.854,"text":"但是沒有提到現職人員也受到影響就像一個徒刀列車他走過去以後現職人員事實上你進來的時候就已經被砍掉五刀了我們被砍六刀現職人員被砍五刀事實上大家都沒有提到所以現在的年輕人也蠻可憐的"},{"start":13155.492,"end":13184.194,"text":"他如果是118年以後退休的話他開始就是只能領60%或最高60.25%你說這個公平嗎連現在為大家在犧牲運動的事實上他不知道他已經被砍五刀了被砍五刀啦這個親而以堪啦對不對第二個"},{"start":13188.308,"end":13210.22,"text":"就是談到說有沒有世代不公的問題那我這邊要報告就是說依照規定第40條規定第36條到38條節省的經費就要繳到退伍基金你知道我們的貢獻啦退休人員的貢獻比現職人員還多"},{"start":13212.469,"end":13236.43,"text":"我們現在被砍差不多19.5%如果我服務35年以上的話那我繳到退伍基金期現在19.5%你退伍基金限職人員才提撥比例15%那我現在以我的這個狀況我被砍的部分29500塊"},{"start":13240.336,"end":13245.58,"text":"我這個交到退伍基金那我從退伍基金才領18萬吧61%是我自己繳回去的"},{"start":13250.697,"end":13278.368,"text":"百分之三十一退伍基金負責的那你說退伍基金要破產然後違反世代公平我們的貢獻比他們大而且這個列車繼續走下去並沒有因為停止我們前面提撥的就沒有了還是繼續走下去他只是做微調每年我們提撥繳出去到退伍基金也差不多400億"},{"start":13280.254,"end":13308.425,"text":"這個列車繼續走下去在第三個物價飛漲你說這個情勢都已經改變你繼續這樣走下去那事實上現在去年物價上漲5.52%只有象徵性的調整一下物價指數調4%然後今年"},{"start":13309.926,"end":13323.994,"text":"到年底一估是百分之差不多2.5%到3%的通貨膨脹那你說現職人員要調百分之三我們退休人員還要減1.5吧請而已看第一個"},{"start":13328.823,"end":13353.677,"text":"你不但是心裡感覺不公平 第二個 尊嚴也受到損失人家說你退休公務員 政府都不照顧你們 你們在減薪這是什麼世界嘛 對不對所以我是認為到檢討期5年了 現在應該停止了 而且還追溯到113年"},{"start":13355.991,"end":13380.973,"text":"1月1號因為砍的是在過頭啦過頭啦那第4點年金改革違反法律不恕既往跟信賴保護這個不是原則只有互動喔在中央法規標準法裡面第14條就規定喔法律這個實行以後才生效"},{"start":13382.659,"end":13410.438,"text":"你不能去追溯第二個 行政成績法第8條規定行政行為應以誠實信用之方法為之﹐並保護人民正當合理之信賴所以法律不恕既往你變更了法律關係你這個問題大法官跟這個保信會他創了一個名詞"},{"start":13411.653,"end":13426.28,"text":"叫做非正正庶籍既往大家如果是有事之事非正正庶籍既往的話有沒有庶籍既往有嘛 有陳問在嘛對不對 是不是亂搞嘛"},{"start":13427.741,"end":13454.963,"text":"那這樣的糊弄人家所以他用你公益的名義所以我來改變你們的你公益的話是大家要承擔不是針對退休人員那第五點限職公教人員的待遇跟我們退休人員的調薪事實上同樣的因素都是因為"},{"start":13456.36,"end":13476.837,"text":"物價上漲所以啊 第二個就是說你物價上漲的時候你只調限職人員那如果我們退休人員一起調的話不是很省事嗎同樣的這個因素啊第二個就是整體的平衡"},{"start":13480.781,"end":13503.703,"text":"現職人員調整公務人員退休了也一起調整就彰顯國家對兩方面的人都是重視我們的心理感受就會好一點而且這樣的話彰顯政府對全體公教人員都照顧第6點"},{"start":13505.59,"end":13530.351,"text":"我認為整個的基金如果說要維持運作的話最好的基本就是因為因素是很多但是現在基金的運用範圍是蠻小的大部分都投資在股票、債券跟存款在國外比如說美國他們的退伏基金也可以經營事業"},{"start":13532.877,"end":13533.617,"text":"最後一點我後來補充了"},{"start":13549.758,"end":13555.841,"text":"就是說我們那個守則替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替"},{"start":13577.028,"end":13600.266,"text":"以為是沒有了事實上是繼續在走那如果我們主管機關認為說會有這個危機你就應該依照規定那我們退休人員每年撥了三四百億到退伍基金你相對提撥大家公平相對提撥"},{"start":13602.336,"end":13623.613,"text":"為什麼我們要繳那麼多出去那你為什麼不提撥我是認為這個就是大家要考慮的點所以財務的缺口不能都由退休人員來承擔那我也為現職人員打抱不平事實上他們砍了五刀不知道"},{"start":13625.168,"end":13652.49,"text":"有沒有主管機關去跟他說明沒有隱藏的或者主管機關可以出來說我講的有沒有錯他們以後118名退休的人全部如果沒有改的話大家請六層有這種道理嗎因為他們現在已經進來就脖子架在上面的一手刀他砍五刀不知道當然要繼續砍"},{"start":13654.13,"end":13676.763,"text":"要再繼續砍五刀我們現在只能寄望我們的立法委員能夠支持為我們申冤然後也要呼籲主管機關為這些現職人員跟公務人員做考量不是一味的"},{"start":13677.714,"end":13678.014,"text":"李慧蘭理事長"},{"start":13707.192,"end":13708.373,"text":"退休金改革"},{"start":13738.631,"end":13766.397,"text":"不好意思因為這裡面有一些數據還是需要一些數據來講話會比較好一點那我們先來看就是說112年7月1號政府每一年撥補的那個什麼退補基金的錢實際上是不夠的就像我們剛剛講過的那除了那個公務人員的話照理來講你必須要每一年撥補200"},{"start":13768.597,"end":13790.502,"text":"兩百那個 兩百八十五億暫時的部分必須兩百三十六億也就是從去年一百一十二年到今年一百三到一百一十四年實際上撥補的那個什麼要放在退撫基金的錢根本就不夠而最近呢所謂的兩百九十四億實際上是為了因為另利息基金那個缺口所以呢如果這個退撫基金的那個缺口你不再補助的時候未來你所繳的錢呢"},{"start":13792.822,"end":13794.563,"text":"政府撥補到政府基金的時候實際上是為了以後減少撥補"},{"start":13806.536,"end":13822.647,"text":"懂我的意思嗎就是說你少一點撥補把那個洞補起來你以後呢就不會因為他撥補的數量越大你到最後你政府可能就跟之前這樣子就都不管了或者是後來又要再去砍這些限職教師的那個每一個月的踢撥率說不定可能未來到18%也都不夠那我們講說我們政府是非常雙標的為什麼這麼講呢"},{"start":13831.533,"end":13833.034,"text":"就是因為在目前我們的預算本來是1.9兆105年的時候1.9兆現在都已經3.2兆了他說我們的財政非常的好"},{"start":13844.656,"end":13861.775,"text":"但是實際上他從我們所有的那個所得稅裏面所課稅的錢也是越來越多所以呢我們希望政府不要再說謊不要呢見人說人話見鬼說鬼話甚至於呢故意說謊這是非常不對的但我們在接下來繼續的看哈"},{"start":13863.888,"end":13864.008,"text":"現職公務人員"},{"start":13882.832,"end":13894.281,"text":"實際上繳的錢繳的越來越多我們在這一頭我們的政府 我們循序部講說哎呀 我們現在所得替代率很高我們是用本分乘二給我們這些退休的 錯了"},{"start":13896.701,"end":13900.302,"text":"我們根本就沒有那個什麼 多拿錢 為什麼因為每一個月現職教師 現在的現職教師還有以前的老師啊 他們多繳給政府的錢實際上是用本縫乘2 乘以15% 乘以35%但實際上本縫乘2 比你的你自己的那個新縫加上專業家級還要來得高所以你每個月都多扣現職教師的錢"},{"start":13923.388,"end":13923.548,"text":"最後﹖"},{"start":13951.929,"end":13977.499,"text":"我要講的就是 再給我一分鐘就是我們的政府講的毛索德替代率我們在這裡頭 我也有這方面的資料也去算 算了很辛苦台灣軍公教退休毛索德率應該是要用年薪因為OECD是用年薪來計算的所以我們用用來計算的話實際上35年年資我們現在大部分的公務人員他的縫點是在490以下所以他到最後"},{"start":13978.519,"end":13978.719,"text":"主席"},{"start":13999.273,"end":14027.319,"text":"好 謝謝那我們所有專家學者跟登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢那我們接著進行政府機關代表發言請就所送書面資料以外的部分做補充說明那我們這邊會逐一詢問是否需要再做補充說明齁如果需要補充發言的話 發言時間是5分鐘請問全序部有無口頭補充意見沒有齁 有好 來部長"},{"start":14036.376,"end":14036.656,"text":"主席"},{"start":14055.606,"end":14055.846,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14076.475,"end":14103.931,"text":"第二點說明是至於退休金是不是第一年工資我想在七八二號已經有一號解釋了我想大法官並不是這樣認知第三個我想這個有提到我們本來就有三年做一個精算那每年都做一個小精算那跟那個小精算再跟大精算再做一個比較那狀況其實每年那個小精算結果都比大精算結果好像還不好啦大概我說第四第四剛剛提到我剛剛提到委員會說這個"},{"start":14105.692,"end":14106.013,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14122.418,"end":14151.801,"text":"我想當初回過頭來這整個重點當初要改革有三個主要東西因為基金會用慶第二個 月退休所得跟限職所得實在是差距太近了第三個 體制年齡太早了所以從馬總統到蔡總統就一直在處理這個事情所以請下面一張所以提出很多方案這方案就是這張大家可以看得到的那透過這方案希望大家基金裡面所有人一起出力來解決這兩大政策目標就讓基金用慶能夠延後一世代"},{"start":14152.939,"end":14167.026,"text":"議員退休所得更合理這些就具體的方案在走具體的措施其實就有可能對已退者或者是還沒有退的人都有一些不同的衝擊我想這張表提供大家做一個參考接下來請下面一張"},{"start":14168.793,"end":14188.352,"text":"實際上我們直升到現在快這幾年裡面的大致上狀況是這樣就有預注嘛那這個預注大概目前預注了3000億左右那這預注我必須這樣講絕大部分預注是來自優存利息的歸零簡單講我們現在節省的都是優存利息剛剛有很多人談到這個事情真正退休金本身"},{"start":14189.998,"end":14207.069,"text":"進到這個役助裡面是很少的我不能講說沒有是很少意思就是說現在所節省的其實都不是你的繳的退休金而是18%是人民納的這個就全數役助過來所以能夠改善財務有相當大一個明顯性下一張"},{"start":14209.077,"end":14226.452,"text":"過去這2點就知道缺口是怎樣產生各有各說各話有人說這因為投資不好完全造成不過如果你看歷史的背景來講那個沒有做最適費率的提撥這才是嚴重的一個問題因為如果看這張表你就知道我們有剛前面本來就預計應該繳15.5%可是我們只繳8%一路越差越大"},{"start":14230.615,"end":14231.956,"text":"基金缺口基金缺口基金缺口基金缺口基金缺口"},{"start":14257.007,"end":14262.358,"text":"所以我比較一下這張圖給大家看一下如果我們拿純月退休金這已經不涉及"},{"start":14263.82,"end":14292.919,"text":"那個18%的一個減少了這張意思告訴各位講不管是公務人員警察或教師大概來講純月退休金跟你107年年改跟今年實施的其實減少的比例呢相對來講是低的我不能講說沒有減少是相對是低的那目前大概都5萬塊左右跟其實純月退休金所以我們減少絕大部分是18%的優存利息我必須再一次跟大家這樣提醒請下一張"},{"start":14294.878,"end":14309.543,"text":"那這個就是我剛剛提過的我們決定八成是優存利息那請下一張那所以呢從全區部的角度來講站在基金主管機關來講站在整個比較負責任的一個強項我們還是認為首選不要停止"},{"start":14310.489,"end":14310.929,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14331.513,"end":14331.733,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14350.086,"end":14350.787,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":14372.25,"end":14393.288,"text":"如果不停止調降到118年我們認為現在的存月退休金的還是有購買力因為現在的月退休金還是可以支應一般的生活我們現在大概有八成以上的月退休者還是領五萬塊以上那預計我等一下會很快跟他講118年的時候所得會跟現在非常接近"},{"start":14394.093,"end":14420.38,"text":"那這個八萬塊 五萬塊代表是現值的公務人員的大概78%月薪的78%接近 很接近啦 現在比現在高考薪金稍微低一點啦不過已經也不錯了一個level當然高於民間的平均月薪長薪資那未來的在職者會因為隨著調薪他未來的退休金一定會更高我想這是基本的概念那現在的月退休金可以維持基本的時候我們還繼續維持跟著CPI調整"},{"start":14422.361,"end":14422.641,"text":"主席法定名目"},{"start":14438.33,"end":14458.725,"text":"替代力那個已經沒有太大意義了那請下一張我跟各位解釋為什麼沒有太大意義因為法定名目的一個退代力看到這一張我們一路降到60可是因為我們調薪我們透過實務的方式我們會去乘所以我們應該去算實質的替代力實質的退代力以今年來講113年是調到67.5換算起來因為我們調過一個1.2%跟4%換算起來就71.6"},{"start":14466.038,"end":14491.48,"text":"因為用乘的啦那如果假設未來都調薪只要調5%最後1年調5%你再乘上去實質的替代率是66.8並不是60我必須要跟各位講錢是這樣算出來的所以光看那個60老實說已經沒有意義了回到實際的錢為什麼會有5萬多塊是這樣出來的那當然如果跟月薪比較起來那是月薪會更高因為那是我們本分會乘以2去乘好請下一張"},{"start":14493.22,"end":14498.987,"text":"所以我用公務人員來看我們去模擬這個退估我們有公務人員最多退休的其實是590"},{"start":14500.919,"end":14521.129,"text":"就是7等的年功那630是8等710是9等800就12等以上現在2004年大概平均值拿這麼多錢退休人平均值當然你會跟你哪一年退休是有一些關係不過平均值上總平均大概5萬5.02萬那75%的人高於5.1萬那我剛剛已經講過根據剛剛換算2029年大概還是至少會拿這樣的錢不會差太多"},{"start":14531.53,"end":14559.866,"text":"那我的意思在說這些是不是夠你一個人的基本生活這是一個大家應該要好好討論的事這是指公務人員下一張這是警察警察是比公務人員高這是給大家做一個參考最後今天很多教師界的同仁在這裡最後一張模擬教師教師最多退休教師最多退職的人其實是在625並不是490就是625OK就是新的625大概是5.9萬"},{"start":14562.105,"end":14583.359,"text":"平均5.86萬73%高於6萬我只是在講這是一個事實的數據118年以後大概會在這裡往後就不再往下講只要有調心就跟在往上我想基本上還是回應到說我剛剛講過我們透過繼續年改如果不調整我們年金又可以不要去維持一個世代"},{"start":14583.979,"end":14608.279,"text":"然後接下來每一個個人的退休所得還是可以維持在一般的這個生活沒有問題那至於這個CPI的內涵是不是應該用一些調整要更計算什麼的我想這是可以去討論不過因為台灣所有其他的政府社會保險通通是用一致的標準所以這部分部裡面只要別的一個改變我想我們就搭配那個方式來進行我倒覺得沒有什麼太大的一個議題那請下一張"},{"start":14612.228,"end":14622.441,"text":"後面這一張我就不再做說明這是我們部裡面模擬非常多一個數字就不在這裡回到前面一張去所以總共來講我還是建議從部裡面角度來講我們認為還是繼續讓他走因為大家都沒有受到"},{"start":14633.951,"end":14645.395,"text":"法定的退休金本身真的不會受到太大影響我們從月退稅有降下來大家感受最多應該是18%的一下子降那麼多因為18%本來就社會上一直討論這個所以這個議題是從馬總統開始就開始主張優存利息要去做調整"},{"start":14653.168,"end":14671.034,"text":"蔡總統的那個107年就是一個全國性的會議也持續這一條路所以我覺得我們部裡面還是願意把這個事實跟這個委員會做一個報告那今天也謝謝這個主席讓我這個時間完整的來說明說我們做過專業的一個評估的一個報告就教大家 謝謝大家好 謝謝那還有哪幾個部會議"},{"start":14683.291,"end":14689.401,"text":"請問人種有沒有要補充?沒有內政部有沒有要口頭補充?沒有"},{"start":14692.328,"end":14718.315,"text":"這樣好 我覺得我覺得是這樣啦就是說因為今天是公聽會嘛那公聽會其實就是它不是一場辯論就是我們多聽一下跟我們想法相同或跟我們想法不同的人每個人所提出來的意見嘛因為剛剛事務部長他也有提到說他這個計算的算式其實可能跟大家想的有點不太一樣那我覺得這個都會列入我們將來研究的參考"},{"start":14718.835,"end":14740.485,"text":"我不會說你的想法跟我不一樣你就一定是錯的我不會這樣我覺得我們就是因為我個性是比較持平去看待每一件事所以我會認為說我這邊我也會請我辦公室的同仁就剛剛部長的指教那我們會再研究一下當然另外我們會提一個就是說因為我們之前所拿到的資料是"},{"start":14741.625,"end":14767.028,"text":"會到60%那當然我們又再看一下其實從108年到112年其實我們的CPI已經漲了7.34那我就會覺得說一邊往下砍那麼多然後另外一邊CPI往上漲那麼多那我們也都知道我們買東西五年前的物價跟現在其實是有蠻大一段差距那當然我們公務員當年他捨棄外面的高薪然後來當公務員他徒兒就是一個"},{"start":14767.628,"end":14794.559,"text":"退休的穩定但是當他放棄當年可以在外面高薪的狀況下他來當公務員但是你又告訴他當初說了不算其實我個人從法律的角度來說我認為這個信賴保護上面是受到侵害當然我剛有看我剛有提到大法官說為以為了公益為目的之下那這個信賴保護雖然本來應該值得保障但是為了公益所以他"},{"start":14795.399,"end":14795.579,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14816.528,"end":14837.841,"text":"老公的模式去由政府來撥補這是一個值得我們考量的地方所以今天公聽會就是這樣公聽會是廣納各方的意見所以還好今天沒有針鋒相對如果今天有針鋒相對我就會請大家冷靜因為有時候主持公聽會會針鋒相對那就謝謝各位到場的專家以及政府官員"},{"start":14847.103,"end":14870.788,"text":"我報告一下剛才我們主管機關部長也提到說未來到1118年的時候可能我們的所得還是很多我要講一下這個是依照消費者物價指數調整的這個是明目所得"},{"start":14872.045,"end":14895.681,"text":"你如果用實質守則去計算 哪裡沒有降低啦怎麼會沒有降低 根本就是糊弄啦你用那個一道CPI調整過的 然後說你的名目守則啊 哇 一大堆啊我們退休人員的名目守則 然後實質的守則是降很多耶"},{"start":14896.622,"end":14911.099,"text":"你跟人家講說他沒有什麼少那個時候的物價118年以後的物價比現在一定高很多所以這樣的講法是有一點需要斟酌不好意思"},{"start":14914.964,"end":14935.561,"text":"對長官也不禮貌阿謝謝阿好 謝謝好那這樣齁就是謝謝今天到場的各位齁那我們今天公聽會的發言到這邊告一段落那感謝所有的與會者從不同的面向提供給我們非常多的寶貴意見那今天所有的發言內容跟書面意見及委員莊瑞雄所提出來的書面資料"},{"start":14936.101,"end":14950.664,"text":"均列入紀錄 刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告 送交本院全體委員及本日出席人員參考本次公聽會到此結束 謝謝大家 現在散會大家辛苦了 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16371","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16371","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d42a67f5a6c5408b76425655b8120616f78081dad70f87c46553f5076fb06e9cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（詢答及處理）\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（僅詢答） 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．宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定．討論事項繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分．"},{"start":1931.034,"end":1945.512,"text":"決議一公開部分審查結果稅入部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第75項外交部135萬元照列第76項臨時事務局無列數第三款歸費收入第61項"},{"start":1947.661,"end":1967.324,"text":"領事事務局原列36亿8千3百48萬5千元。幀列第一幕行政規費收入2億元。改列為38亿8千3百48萬5千元。第四款財產收入第85項外交部2924萬1千元。照列第86項領事事務局26萬4千元。照列第87項外交及國際事務學院10萬元。照列第7款其他收入第84項外交部4億2290萬元。照列"},{"start":1977.746,"end":2004.696,"text":"第85項臨時事務局876萬8千元照列第86項外交及國際事務學院27萬1千元照列稅出部分第8款外交部主管不含機密部分第一項外交部不含第8目外交支出機密預算原列284億6558萬5千元簡列一、第二目外交管理業務向下基本行政工作維持100萬元"},{"start":2006.28,"end":2012.839,"text":"二（第三目注外機構業務向下注外使領單位基本行政工作維持之業務費315萬元"},{"start":2015.922,"end":2039.809,"text":"第三、第四目國際會議及交流向下出國訪問兩千萬元是第五目國際合作及關懷向下有關亞東太平洋師加強雙邊及多邊合作三百萬元以上共計減列兩千七百一十五萬元科目軍制型調整其餘軍造列改列為兩百八十四億三千八百四十三萬五千元本項通過決議七十八項"},{"start":2042.694,"end":2049.097,"text":"第二項領事事務局15億9117萬7千元照列本項通過決議九項第三項外交及國際事務學院1億0363萬2千元照列本項通過決議六項"},{"start":2059.861,"end":2088.524,"text":"二（機密部分（審查結果秘略三（114年度中央政府總預算案關於外交部主管收支公開及機密部分。（審查完均。（審查結果送財政委員會會政後提報院會。（不需交由黨團協商。（院會討論時有臨召集委員議均說明是有關委員提案內容文字及金額在不影響提案原意下授權議事人員修正處理。宣讀完畢"},{"start":2094.544,"end":2118.052,"text":"因為我們確認議事錄必須現場要有加上本席要三席的委員那今天立法院很遺憾那很多立委要去交通委員會要去內政委員會開會卻遭受到阻止讓可以開會的人不能進去開會所以目前都沒辦法來到包含本委員會的委員現在出席在場人數還是不足所以我們確認議事錄要等待"},{"start":2120.469,"end":2130.1,"text":"連沈博洋委員再加一席委員那越是混亂的時候我們越是要謹守程序所以我們現在先休息等初期委員人數足了我們再繼續後面的程序休息"},{"start":2207.455,"end":2221.74,"text":"要請委員 請他一下 請他一下 學委員上廁所啊 學委員沒有沒有我我"},{"start":2236.104,"end":2242.72,"text":"好我們恢復開會哈請問在場委員對於上一次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處"},{"start":2244.124,"end":2264.896,"text":"好我們議事錄確定那我們現在先行把我們今天要進行的程序上午進行的是業務報告那報告完我們隨後會進行預算的審查為了讓時間更有效率我們先有關提案的部分我們這個會議處理公務預算"},{"start":2267.257,"end":2290.798,"text":"機密提案數不多所以我們機密提案數等機密會議的時候再來宣讀那我們現在先宣讀公開部分的這個預算提案那宣達完我們再回到正常程序這個提案這個處理程序有貞德沈伯陽委員跟徐曉新委員同意那我們就先把宣讀公開預算部分的提案先進行討論時間還沒變"},{"start":2294.124,"end":2300.82,"text":"好我剛才這個徵詢學委沒意見了齁學委也沒有意見了齁好那我們現在先請醫生員宣讀討論事項"},{"start":2304.295,"end":2305.376,"text":"捐贈僑生獎助學金及監控地區僑民學校施支輔助基金。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2331.206,"end":2350.716,"text":"我們在場有沈伯陽委員、徐曉新委員還有林楚英委員今天非常歡迎我們僑委會委員長徐家青以及我們的副委員長呂元榮還有主秘張良明綜合規劃處處長郭淑珍僑民處處長賴立寅僑教處代理處長陳伯琴"},{"start":2361.511,"end":2390.009,"text":"僑商處處長游凱權僑生處處長王怡茹密室市主任邱惠燕人事市主任楊志傑主計市主任林秀燕資訊市主任白忠光政風市主任楊尊仁"},{"start":2391.906,"end":2414.441,"text":"法規會專委徐佑林僑務通訊社社長吳小竹財政法人海外信保基金董事長林保錫林董事長我們好像是不是這三屆都是你啊對好這個行政院主計總書專委邱碧珠"},{"start":2418.06,"end":2431.918,"text":"剛才有貞德在場委員的同意陳永康委員也剛進場我再講一次我們今天上午要進行的業務報告及詢答詢答結束後我們要處理僑委會明年度的預算"},{"start":2433.019,"end":2458.196,"text":"今天因為我們整個院區很遺憾的有一些事情發生所以每一個委員今天出席的時間都有所不同我們為了讓效率跟我們的議事能夠更順暢徵求在場委員同意我們先宣讀公開預算的提案部分請議事人宣讀不知道在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2459.668,"end":2464.772,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案僑務委員會主管收支公開部分依税入部分第二款"},{"start":2484.878,"end":2488.259,"text":"法款及賠償收入第210項僑務委員會無劣數第3款規費收入第172項僑務委員會24000元第4款財產收入第220項僑務委員會8583000元第7款其他收入第219項僑務委員會625000元"},{"start":2508.454,"end":2512.917,"text":"第21款僑務委員會主管不含機密部分第一項僑務委員會19亿7345萬5千元第一幕一般行政4亿4649萬5千元第二幕"},{"start":2522.213,"end":2525.836,"text":"綜合規劃業務47856000元第三目僑民僑團聯繫接待及僑教中心服務231151000元第四目僑校發展及文化社教輔助34219000元第五目僑商經濟業務59505000元第六目僑生回國升學及僑親培訓研習"},{"start":2551.094,"end":2573.67,"text":"八億五千零一十九萬六千元第七目僑務新聞資訊及僑媒服務兩千六百三十八萬三千元第八目第一預備金七百六十五萬元現在宣讀委員資提案第一案第21款第一項僑務委員會凍結三百萬元委員林毅君等人提案第二案第21款第一項僑務委員會凍結一百萬元"},{"start":2579.059,"end":2588.753,"text":"委員林楚英等人提案第三至第四案為第一目基本行政工作維持之預算提案第三案水電費減列10萬元"},{"start":2591.175,"end":2614.629,"text":"委員徐巧欣等提案第4案運輸設備費減列210萬元委員馬文君等提案第5案至第11案系第一幕資訊管理與維護之提案第5案凍結100萬元委員林楚英等提案第6案凍結20萬元委員王定宇等提案第7案凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案第8案"},{"start":2616.325,"end":2639.249,"text":"設備及投資凍結一百萬元委員馬文君等提案。第九案資訊軟硬體設備費凍結五十萬元委員陳冠廷等提案。第十案資訊軟硬體設備費凍結五十萬元委員林益君等提案。第十一案資訊軟硬體設備費凍結百分之十委員黃仁等提案。第十二案至第十三案系第二幕加強僑務委員聯繫及辦理僑務委員會議之提案。"},{"start":2643.717,"end":2662.771,"text":"第12案凍結150萬元委員馬文君等提案第13案一般事務費凍結50%委員薛巧欣等提案第14至第17案系第二幕國內慶典活動接待服務之提案第14案凍結20萬元委員王定宇等提案第15案凍結"},{"start":2664.272,"end":2681.643,"text":"一百二十萬元委員馬文君等提案。第16案資訊服務費凍結百分之二十委員徐巧欣等提案。第17案一般事務費凍結百分之五十委員徐巧欣等提案。第18至第24案系第二幕研究發展及專案業務之提案。"},{"start":2683.134,"end":2685.977,"text":"第18案凍結10萬元委員盧美林等提案。第19案凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案。第20案凍結100萬元委員陳冠廷等提案。第21案凍結50萬元委員黃仁等提案。第22案業務費凍結10萬元委員"},{"start":2701.19,"end":2720.401,"text":"林柱英等提案第23案業務費凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第24案一般事務費凍結50%委員徐巧欣等提案第25至第30案系第一幕加強僑社聯繫及輔助舉辦多元活動之預算提案"},{"start":2721.181,"end":2729.204,"text":"第25案一般事務費檢列400萬元委員馬文君等提案第26案凍結300萬元委員林益君等提案第27案凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第28案凍結10萬元委員林竹英等提案第29案業務費凍結100萬元委員沈伯陽等提案第30案一般事務費"},{"start":2742.781,"end":2750.488,"text":"動輒10%委員學巧欣等提案。第31至第34案例第3目舉辦僑設工作研討會及邀訪與培訓活動落實僑務工作之提案。"},{"start":2755.785,"end":2784.987,"text":"第三十一案凍結一百萬元為馬文君等提案第三十二案凍結五十萬元為馬文君等提案第三十三案一般數費減列一百二十二萬七千元為馬文君等提案第三十四案一般數費減列四十萬元凍結百分之三十委員徐巧興等提案第三十五至第三十七案系第三目海外華僑文教中心服務業務資提案第三十五案凍結一百萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第三十六案凍結八百萬元"},{"start":2785.908,"end":2798.675,"text":"委員林毅君等提案第37案凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案第38至第44案系第三目僑界青年培育交流計劃業務費之提案第38案"},{"start":2802.47,"end":2808.095,"text":"動解五百萬元為馬文君等提案。第39案約用人員籌金檢列一百六十八萬元為馬文君等提案。第40案一般事務費檢列兩百萬元動解兩百萬元為馬文君等提案。第41案一般事務費檢列兩百七十五萬元為馬文君等提案。第42案一般事務費檢列一百五十萬元為黃人等提案。"},{"start":2826.072,"end":2849.506,"text":"第43案一般事務費檢列120萬元凍結30%委員徐巧欣等提案第44案對外資捐助檢列10萬元委員黃仁等提案第45案第4目編印及供應僑效華語教材一般事務費凍結100萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第46至第52案系第4目"},{"start":2850.587,"end":2871.876,"text":"培訓僑效施支及充實教學支援支提案第46案凍結50萬元委員馬文君等人提案第47案凍結200萬元委員陳冠廷等人提案第48案一般事務費減劣10萬元凍結30%委員徐巧欣等人提案第49案一般事務費凍結200萬元委員馬文君等人提案第50案國外旅費凍結100萬元委員馬文君等人提案第51案"},{"start":2879.432,"end":2905.46,"text":"國外旅費凍結50萬元委員林益君等人提案。第52案 獎補助費凍結150萬元委員馬文君等人提案。第53字第57案 系第4目 辦理文化社教活動及巡迴教學之提案。第53案 凍結100萬元委員馬文君等人提案。第54案 凍結50萬元委員盧美林等人提案。第55案 凍結50萬元委員林益君等人提案。"},{"start":2905.919,"end":2916.901,"text":"第56案（凍結50萬元委員毛文君等人提案。第57案（一般數費簡列10萬元凍結30%委員徐巧欣等人提案。第56至第68案（系第4目海外華語文學學習深耕計劃之提案。第58案（簡列100萬元凍結20%委員徐巧欣等人提案。第59案（簡列"},{"start":2930.731,"end":2954.954,"text":"一百萬凍結兩百萬元委員馬文君等人提案第六十案凍結五百萬元委員黃仁等人提案第六十一案凍結三百萬元委員林益君等人提案第六十二案凍結兩百萬元委員陳永康等人提案第六十三案凍結一百萬元委員盧美林等人提案第六十四案凍結五十萬元委員王定宇等人提案第六十五案凍結一百萬元"},{"start":2955.919,"end":2965.668,"text":"委員馬文君等提案第66案一般事務費檢列753,000元凍結30%委員徐巧欣等提案第67案獎補助費檢列200萬元凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案第68案對外資捐助凍結200萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第69至71案為第4目擴大培育及流用喬生資提案"},{"start":2981.394,"end":2988.988,"text":"第69案（凍結200萬元委員林毅君等提案（第70案（凍結60萬元委員盧美玲等提案（第71案（業務費凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案（"},{"start":2994.588,"end":3018.357,"text":"第72至74案系第五目聯繫海外僑台商組織並協助推展業務之提案第72案凍結兩百萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第73案業務費凍結一百萬元委員馬文君等提案第74案對國內團體資捐助凍結百分之三十委員徐巧興等提案"},{"start":3019.827,"end":3033.445,"text":"第75至78案第5目培訓僑台商經貿人才協助僑台商企業發展之提案第75案檢列100萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第76案業務費檢列202萬9千元"},{"start":3037.557,"end":3051.084,"text":"委員馬文君等提案第77案一般事務費檢列40萬元凍結30%委員徐小新等提案第78案一般事務費凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第79至85案為第5目海外華人經濟資訊匯收並促進海內外商機交流之提案第79案凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案"},{"start":3065.049,"end":3080.892,"text":"第80案凍結50萬元委員林毅君等提案第81案凍結20萬元委員黃仁等提案第82案業務費凍結120萬元委員馬文君等提案第83案一般事務費減列100萬元委員馬文君等提案第84案一般事務費減列30萬元凍結30%委員徐巧興等提案第85案獎補助費凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第86至88案為第5目"},{"start":3095.433,"end":3105.979,"text":"僑借青年培育交流計劃業務費之提案第86案凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第87案業務費凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第88案一般事務費凍結65%委員許曉新等提案第89至101案為第6目擴大培育及流用僑生之提案第89案檢列500萬元凍結500萬元"},{"start":3123.703,"end":3141.076,"text":"委員林竺英等提案第90案凍結500萬元委員林毅君等提案第91案凍結200萬元委員陳永康等提案第92案凍結200萬元委員黃仁等提案第93案凍結100萬元委員盧美林等提案第94案凍結1000萬元委員黃仁等提案第95案凍結1000萬元委員黃仁等提案第96案凍結200萬元委員陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":3154.755,"end":3159.297,"text":"第97案凍結550萬元委員馬文君等提案第98案業務費減列500萬元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案第99案業務費凍結50萬元"},{"start":3167.745,"end":3196.017,"text":"委員沈博洋等提案。第一百案一般事務費減列一百萬元,凍結百分之六十。委員徐巧欣等提案。第一百零一案獎補助費減列一千萬元,凍結一千五百萬元。委員馬文君等提案。第一百零二至一百零三案為第六目。輔導海外求生來台升學及畢業留台之提案。第一百零二案業務費凍結一百五十萬元。委員馬文君等提案。"},{"start":3196.516,"end":3202.499,"text":"第103案一般事務費檢列10萬元凍結30%委員徐巧欣等提案。第104案一般事務費檢列30萬元凍結30%委員徐巧欣等提案。第105至113案為第7目辦理僑務新聞資訊及傳媒服務之提案。第105案檢列100萬元委員馬文君等提案。第106案凍結100萬元"},{"start":3225.25,"end":3232.839,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案第107案凍結50萬元委員王定宇等提案第108案業務費凍結100萬元委員陳永康等提案第109案業務費凍結50萬元委員沈伯陽等提案第110案約用人員籌金減列80萬元"},{"start":3245.851,"end":3266.215,"text":"委員黃仁等人提案第111案一般事務費檢列兩百萬元委員馬文君等人提案第112案一般事務費檢列兩百萬元凍結百分之三十委員徐巧欣等人提案第113案獎補助費凍結五十萬元委員馬文君等人提案第114案至第120案為主決議現在宣讀主決議之內容第114案"},{"start":3274.802,"end":3295.363,"text":"為促進我國各項發展並布局全球行銷建請僑務委員會因強化與僑界之聯繫協助輔導海外僑教體系提升治安防護能力提供受害僑民法律及陪同協助以加強對海外僑民的保護和支持提案人委員沈伯陽等人"},{"start":3297.642,"end":3324.854,"text":"第115案（僑務委員會至民國一百年起推行海外青年文化大使計畫目前覆蓋美國、加拿大、澳洲、泰國及菲律賓卻未涵蓋歐洲或其他地區建議僑務委員會嚴厲擴展計畫地理範圍增加歐洲及其他地區臺僑青年參與機會以深化臺灣的國際影響力與連結提案人委員林楚英等人"},{"start":3325.919,"end":3348.957,"text":"第116案為實現匯聚海外僑力強化僑教網絡及輔助僑台商全球布局發展之目標建議僑務委員會與經濟部等相關機關合作盤點計劃赴海外設廠資企業及其目標地點提案人委員林竹英等人第117案僑務委員會因說明現行及與海外打工"},{"start":3355.632,"end":3380.174,"text":"打工度假7年之協助措施以及如何增進僑民團體赴海外赴外7年包含工作生活在內之聯繫互助原件請僑務委員會於兩個月內向立法院為交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員林柱英等人。第118案僑務委員會為加強於海外第二三代"},{"start":3381.295,"end":3396.554,"text":"僑民青年之年節至一百年起辦理海外青年文化大使培訓。（原建議僑務委員會研議擴大僑外大使培訓洽詢及申請服務以落實與僑親之年節提案人委員黃仁等人"},{"start":3397.659,"end":3417.59,"text":"第119案為充實海外僑效施支．．內政部與僑委會積極推動替代役青年赴海外服務．．內政部及僑委會致103年度其聯派替代役男志．．施予所臺北僑效服務勤．．對華語教育非常有助益．．緣建請僑委會協同內政部．．"},{"start":3420.652,"end":3429.659,"text":"一、替代役實施計劃增加赴臺北僑校服務教育替代役攬支援額提案人委員黃仁等人第120案"},{"start":3432.833,"end":3450.988,"text":"目前,臺北施支缺乏,僑委會雖不斷鼓勵國人前往臺北服務外,卻因為薪資及津貼不高,難有誘因。原件請僑務委員會補助當地培訓施支每人每月生活津貼2000泰銖,提案人委員黃仁等人宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3524.822,"end":3545.421,"text":"好,謝謝大家,我們恢復開會本日會議審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支以及附屬單位預算的兩項信託基金那報告區分為公開跟機密兩個部分那我們循網曆先公開,後秘密"},{"start":3546.061,"end":3572.547,"text":"那報告後接續詢答那詢答為了清場不用清兩次所以我們詢答會先秘密後公開那時間會並記今天因為還要審查總預算所以本會委員發言時間4加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半這個發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請在10點半以前提出11點左右本席會視詢答狀況來進行處理那"},{"start":3576.75,"end":3586.75,"text":"這個有關提案部分本次會議只處理公務預算部分我們已經剛才公開的部分已經宣讀完畢待會在秘密會議"},{"start":3588.174,"end":3609.213,"text":"後我們在審查預算的時候審查機密預算的時候再來宣讀因為他提案量不大那秘密會議之後我們在公開部分的詢答結束後再來處理相關的提案好我們現在請徐家青委員長上台就公開的部分包含公務預算和信託基金分別進行報告來"},{"start":3619.088,"end":3641.264,"text":"王釗緯主席各位委員各位女士先生嘉卿今天很榮幸奉邀列席大院外交國防委員會報告114年度本會主管預算案有關當前僑務施政情形業於10月30日向貴委員會提出報告並呈各位委員多所指教致為感謝"},{"start":3642.525,"end":3657.914,"text":"僑務工作乃是擴展國力照顧海外國人的一個工作聚焦於支持臺灣力量的凝聚爭取但受限於政府預算有限本會積極提出前瞻性的中長程級計畫爭取預算並擴大僑務的服務量能本會主管預算包括公開及機密兩部分機密預算另作報告現僅就114年公開預算之施政計畫"},{"start":3670.061,"end":3694.487,"text":"目標及預算配合施政計劃之編列情形向各位委員提出報告進行指正關於本會依據行政院114年度施政方針配合中長中程施政計劃及合定預算合度並針對本會未來發展需需要編定114年度施政計劃目標分數如下"},{"start":3695.327,"end":3724.324,"text":"一、擴大以僑務大數據為核心推動僑務創新服務一、為了佈建服務基礎提升僑務資料之決策性的輔助僑包服務的提升以及民生應用的價值第二、為精進僑務資料品質促進多元跨域資料應用提升政府的服務量能"},{"start":3726.974,"end":3748.279,"text":"第二大類會聚海外僑力擴增友台力量永續傳承與新盛繁榮的僑社為了強化海外青年文化大使協會之培育及擴大其動能連結高中畢業前期的學員包含senior FASCA以增進對臺灣的凝聚力"},{"start":3751.428,"end":3763.202,"text":"第二（落實僑團僑民的聯繫服務來回應僑界的需求（後值海外支持政府的力量（辦理各項培訓活動（靈邀重要僑團返臺參訪（並鼓勵僑界以組織力量辦理在海外的多項（"},{"start":3769.389,"end":3793.724,"text":"臺灣多元文化節慶及支持臺灣參與國際組織的活動增加臺灣與各主流社會的能見度。第三為提升海外文教中心場地的設施與服務品質結合資源打造臺灣的文化櫥窗。其次第三大類鞏固喬教的網絡拓展全球喬教及華語市場首先為充實"},{"start":3796.102,"end":3804.598,"text":"僑教師之專業教學職能發展多元華語文教學的模式擴大正體制的華語市場"},{"start":3806.735,"end":3825.246,"text":"第二、為傳揚據臺灣意向的文化活動來擴增海外僑民及國際社會對臺灣多元文化的認識在培育地方文化種子的新傳上本會持續的加強努力第四大類協輔僑台商的組織及企業發展連結臺灣布局全球"},{"start":3832.542,"end":3861.016,"text":"為輔助商會世代傳承提升僑台商永續競爭力紮根廣布臺灣的全球力量第二整合僑台商及國內產官學員的資源及人脈協服僑台商因應全球淨零碳排的趨勢創新驅動企業智慧轉型及精進的升級方案來準備第五大類為培育"},{"start":3862.54,"end":3888.832,"text":"及擴大海外青年留用僑生人才,厚植國家力量。 （擴大吸引海外僑生來臺升學,培育及留用優秀僑生計劃,以推展國家的產業發展。 （鼓勵優秀的畢業生留臺發展深耕,益助國內企業需求之多元人才,達到染財、育財、留財的目標。"},{"start":3891.033,"end":3916.623,"text":"最後一大類運用僑務新聞的服務來深化與僑包的連結首先是以僑務電子報為核心以及五大社群平臺為輔助快速且正確地將政府各項重大政策及措施臺灣的政經現況及發展等信息傳遞到世界各角落並協助防治及打擊錯假訊息的危害"},{"start":3917.645,"end":3928.956,"text":"二、串聯新世代的聲量深化海內外華文媒體交流合作後執由我的華文媒體夥伴關係並促進其正面角度報導臺灣優勢接下來請就"},{"start":3932.321,"end":3958.232,"text":"一百一十四年的預算編列情形建於政府的預算資源有限本會經過檢討之後按下面的桌名來跟各位委員進行報告第一有關於稅錄部分一百一十四年度稅錄預算編列九百二十三萬兩千餘元同上年度的預算數也就是今年一百一十三年的預算數第二大部分有關於稅出"},{"start":3960.157,"end":3971.863,"text":"114年稅出預算數編列20億2900萬9千元含公開及機密預算在內較上年度的法定預算增加2億5754萬1千元"},{"start":3976.141,"end":3995.624,"text":"接下來緊急工作計劃項目報告如下一、在一般行政類編列4億4649萬5千元較上年度增加2063萬1千元增加因素、氣因、員工、薪奉、進級差額以及深算調整待遇支經費"},{"start":3997.213,"end":4021.463,"text":"第二（有關綜合規劃業務編列4785萬6千元較上年度微幅增加92萬2千元主要系因辦理臺灣青年海外搭橋計劃今年因為受到各界廣泛的重視以及高度的投入明年預計擴大辦理略增預算第三（"},{"start":4022.763,"end":4045.242,"text":"僑民僑團聯繫接待及僑教中心的服務編列兩億三千一百一十五萬一千元較上年度增加兩千零六十一萬四千元增加主因乃為培育僑界青年的交流計劃近年來我們在海外的二代三代的青年參與各項活動的比例有顯著增加"},{"start":4047.145,"end":4068.353,"text":"第四、僑效發展暨文化社教輔助編列304219000元較上年度增加4156000元主要系擴大培育及流用僑生在擴大培育及流用僑生方面我們在近年來確實增加非常多的僑生到臺灣讀書並且進一步的發展深造"},{"start":4073.815,"end":4087.59,"text":"其次我們在海外的臺灣華語文學習中心的招生也逐漸擴大有越來越強的成績這都是增加我們在喬教預算的主因第五大類喬商經濟業務編列5950萬"},{"start":4092.495,"end":4117.036,"text":"五千元較上年度減少了一百五十三萬九千元主要是因為檢列了專案紓困專案的信用貸款保證利息及手續費由於前兩年都還在疫情的末期有相關的這一個紓困那今年之後我們就把相關的這一些紓困一律恢復正常第六大類僑生回國升學暨僑親"},{"start":4119.958,"end":4136.326,"text":"培訓延期總共編列8億5千零19萬6千元較上年度增加1億7千254萬5千元增加的幅度算是最大主要是因近年來到臺灣"},{"start":4137.887,"end":4154.739,"text":"此外,培育及流用的僑生人數都以快速的20%、30%、50%的速度在增長,這是我們的幾項專案的專班所呈現出來的結果,因此在這部分增加的預算數稍微增加。"},{"start":4155.76,"end":4159.646,"text":"第7大類以僑務新聞資訊及傳媒服務編列2638萬3千元較商年度增加388萬7千元主要增加系會"},{"start":4172.054,"end":4184.607,"text":"違運社群媒體等經費我們有五大社群媒體的官網那這個在人事成本高漲的狀況之下我們也必須配合調整預算第八第一預備金編列765萬與上年度同"},{"start":4188.629,"end":4194.254,"text":"第9僑務支出的機密預算編列5555萬4千元持續在下降中本會114年度預算案經權力爭取並服役忠誠計劃之役助雖較上年度增加兩億五千七百餘萬元為僅勉強維持上年度僑務支出占總"},{"start":4214.372,"end":4238.365,"text":"預算的比例0.06%顯示僑務預算仍然非常有限且近期因為美金匯率波動本會因為涉外單位故我們在海外僑教中心維運及協府海外僑團僑校等各項活動均需以外幣支付的情況下目前的匯率及海外通膨等嚴重的問題"},{"start":4240.346,"end":4260.53,"text":"再再的考驗了我們僑委會在如此艱困的情況之下希望大院各位委員能夠大力支持加心由衷的希望在僑務業務上能夠得到各位委員的編冊與指導使僑務工作能夠順利推動造福海外的廣大僑胞以上針對114年度僑務委員會的年度預算"},{"start":4266.058,"end":4293.26,"text":"接下來請就我們的信託基金以及各項基金跟各位委員進行報告本會共有兩項基金首先第一項基金是莊守耕公益基金莊守耕公益基金自今年11月底執行結果收入只有8758元而蔣學新的實際支出是3萬元收支相抵"},{"start":4294.414,"end":4318.624,"text":"短處清台幣兩萬一千兩百四十二元由於存款利率偏低收入減少為鼓勵優秀的僑生錄力向學因此在這部分的這個基金的使用情況並不是也非常的多那第二大項是有關於受理捐贈僑生獎助學金以及艱困地區的僑民僑校師資的輔助金"},{"start":4322.369,"end":4327.801,"text":"截至今年11月30日的執行結果總收入有新台幣647萬"},{"start":4330.777,"end":4334.28,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":4354.329,"end":4378.603,"text":"一百零九元短處原因系僑生回國人數增加申請人數也增加故我們動之前年度累積剩餘數來發放獎學金接下來請就114年兩項基金的預算編列情形報告如下第一針對莊守耕公益基金系辦理僑生獎學金合發以及貧困歸僑的補助"},{"start":4381.573,"end":4408.246,"text":"此部分在114年的收入編列4萬1千元預計支出4萬元收支相抵後剩餘新台幣1千元第二項受理捐贈僑生獎助金及艱困地區僑民學校師資輔助金部分僑生獎助金辦理合法事宜以及"},{"start":4410.129,"end":4417.7,"text":"堅困地區僑民僑校施支輔助金的合法事宜本年度編列共有717萬3千元"},{"start":4421.336,"end":4427.78,"text":"預計支出709萬7千元收支相抵後預計剩餘新臺幣7萬6千元為實際發放金額能夠符合預算書金額以減少短處本會114年發放的額度將依113年捐贈金妥為規劃以上兩項基金"},{"start":4444.81,"end":4461.4,"text":"需由海外各地僑包及國內善心人士所捐贈本會自當謹慎管理捐贈者是善款必使基金能夠發揮最大的效益及價值以上報告敬請各位委員指教支持感謝大家"},{"start":4464.738,"end":4489.732,"text":"好,謝謝徐才英委員今天院區的狀況比較特殊啦我本期真的不希望我念過去就讓委員可以發言的機會把它剝奪掉民主還是要討論民主還是要呈現不同的意見所以是不是讓各黨團助理詢問一下那個要來詢答的委員我給五分鐘的時間能夠來詢答我也希望在場的委員能夠體諒就是說"},{"start":4491.954,"end":4498.267,"text":"僑務委員會雖然不是一個大的部會但是還是有很多業務值得去詢問所以我們先休息五分鐘五分鐘後開始詢答"},{"start":4885.538,"end":4913.739,"text":"好我們恢復開會那剛才公開報告已經結束我們現在要進行秘密會議那再一次宣達我們秘密會議秘密詢答然後跟秘密預算的提案宣讀以及處理會一併處理會一併處理所以特別請黨團助理如果有黨團的成員有提機密預算的提案的話請提醒要到場提醒到場好我們現在請議事人員清場"},{"start":6549.718,"end":6571.03,"text":"好我們恢復公開會議現在請登記公開質詢的委員開始詢答第一位請林楚英委員上台質詢我們本會委員4加2非本會委員4分鐘謝謝主席主席有請我們委員長來委員長請"},{"start":6577.554,"end":6581.157,"text":"委員早安委員早這個我要詢答的當然就是跟我們的預算有關我們知道過去我們有所謂的僑包卡是實體卡那麼這一次我要問的是i僑卡其實就是虛擬的僑包卡又是算僑包卡的二代我們知道說其實這樣的申請都是為了接下來"},{"start":6595.888,"end":6599.412,"text":"有助於僑委會來針對我們海外僑民來做一個服務但是我們知道過去大概我們僑包卡是發了10萬張2017年換成所謂虛擬卡片之後在網路上申請委員長現在所謂的i僑卡是幾萬張"},{"start":6616.249,"end":6620.971,"text":"跟委員報告我們從2017年發行到2022年5年時間總共發行10萬張那是僑報卡的時代那到2022年的9月底我們正式發行愛僑卡到今年呢剛好只有滿兩年目前已經發行超過8萬多張"},{"start":6634.158,"end":6654.045,"text":"好所以顯然就是距離過去實體卡的10萬張也還有2萬的距離嘛對不對雖然我們從網路上申請照理說用網路申請應該更快更方便但是本席其實在了解這個預算的過程當中我跟許多的二代僑親他們反映了一個問題來看下一張"},{"start":6655.706,"end":6681.104,"text":"就是我們的中文網頁的申請做得非常好而且步驟都非常清楚但是我們知道所謂會是二代僑親他們可能聽跟說很容易讀跟寫可能就沒有這麼好那麼可能他們的英文能力或者是所謂僑居國就會比較好那麼但是我進入了英文網站發現這個i僑卡裡面裡面呢到底要去哪裡申請不知道喔"},{"start":6681.824,"end":6703.144,"text":"但是如果說你跟他講說apply好你按進去之後就這一段話就沒有了也沒有更詳細的解說那到底我要去哪裡找呢找了半天之後發現右上角有一個sign in或slug in就是申請的過程其實語言不同不應該服務就不一樣這是本巡吹襲的地方因為我們這次i喬卡預算編列了多少"},{"start":6706.398,"end":6727.701,"text":"我們是只有違運費一百多萬而已只有違運費一百多萬所以在這一百多萬當中其實就沒有其他的就是現在就是只有網站的申請沒有其他的沒有我們都是做過線上因為我們不希望大家拿實體很麻煩一大堆卡在包包裡面所以現在大家有一支手機隨時都可以用只要一個卡號"},{"start":6728.502,"end":6753.671,"text":"那針對英文版這部分我們確實在檢討中我們也認為剛開始的時候就只有focus在這個中文版做的還算可以但是英文版確實很poor就是很平凡是的那我們都知道二代僑親他們在國外因為我想一代的這些就是我們的所謂第一代僑民他們中文能力一定好但是二代之後甚至於現在都出現三代了那他們在申請上一定會遇到狀況而且就像您剛剛說的來下一張"},{"start":6756.252,"end":6771.927,"text":"就是我們在系統當中是不是愛喬卡變成愛卡喬就像盧委員長您剛說的我們現在尤其是年輕人他一定都是用手機或ipad但是我特別請我們的同仁"},{"start":6772.467,"end":6785.58,"text":"去處理的時候發現喔只有用桌上型電腦才能完成申請來來回回只要透過手機或者是iPad就會被卡住而且花了40分鐘都無法完成"},{"start":6788.403,"end":6796.033,"text":"這個部分會變成不知道到底是網路的問題還是說你們在系統使用上有一定的設定那這個是我們實測過的這個部分也把問題反映給僑委會委員長"},{"start":6803.103,"end":6822.282,"text":"好謝謝委員幫我們做測試我自己的了解是因為我自己是用手機辦的所以我們手機填寫資料到登錄大概5到10分鐘我就完成了然後兩個小時後他就喝卡給我了所以我們基本上在做這個版的開發的時候是包括電腦"},{"start":6824.864,"end":6827.125,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分"},{"start":6847.052,"end":6869.718,"text":"感謝提醒不過英文的部分我們會大力來加強而且英文的部分我期許你們給我一個時間點要回到上一張我們看到的就是一個QR code完成掃描其實這個內建QR code的網頁製作尤其變成英文版應該不難是不是可以給我一個時間點可以委員是不是我們明年過完農曆年後我們就把這個東西全部補正完畢"},{"start":6870.538,"end":6875.942,"text":"感謝委員的支持跟提醒謝謝謝謝林楚瑩委員我們接下來進行詢答委員是羅美玲委員這個沒有問完的部分我們在預算審查還是可以還可以溝通謝謝主席有請徐家青委員長來委員長請"},{"start":6905.536,"end":6929.423,"text":"羅委員早安委員長早上次呢本席有跟委員長這邊探討過這個三家市這個產學合作這個僑生專班那之前我們討論的是有關於這個僑外生的這個語言的問題然後語言的問題也造成這些僑外生學習的困難甚至呢有些讀不下去放棄學院然後返國的也有這是在資源上來講就是一個很大的一個浪費喔"},{"start":6930.043,"end":6931.204,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。"},{"start":6946.596,"end":6970.196,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6970.396,"end":6993.993,"text":"甚至直接就讓他們觀看這個YouTube的這個影片那有孩子呢來這裡上的是這個餐飲的這個課程結果呢給他們看的就是這個影片就是如何是教他們做這個烘焙我想這個教學品質呢是非常糟糕的所以我想了解的是說僑委會這裡呢有沒有主動的跟這些僑外生就是做一個"},{"start":6995.774,"end":7000.559,"text":"學生對於課程的內容和他先前的認知是不一樣的老師的教學OK不OK還有學校的環境的滿意度等等"},{"start":7014.574,"end":7035.668,"text":"大家都覺得說來到台灣之後為什麼會落差這麼大那這孩子來到這裡之後我們僑委會有沒有主動再去跟他們到校去了解他們的這個學習的這個需求呢請問委員長跟盧委員報告以今年來說呢我們到11月底呢我們是有辦了4個場次是技高學校的專案訪試那同時呢我們到12月底呢會辦8場次的建校合作的機構訪試"},{"start":7044.293,"end":7070.107,"text":"除此之外我們今年也有委託一個學校做專案的研究瞭解學生的學習的一些障礙跟困難那事實上就是如同委員所說我們也跟委員有同樣的發現就是不同國家來源的僑生他們的語言程度是有落差的比方說來自馬來西亞的普遍就是華語程度都非常好跟本地生幾乎是一樣"},{"start":7071.167,"end":7072.248,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":7091.866,"end":7105.174,"text":"菲律賓越南這些現在獨要的生源國呢增加華語課程的班級數的提供以及密集班用這個寒暑假的時間開設密集班以及平時的線上online繼續練習這是我們希望加強這幾個國家的學生落差第二個是他們來到台灣以後我日前跟十幾所"},{"start":7118.341,"end":7145.55,"text":"大專技高職技高專分別開兩場會議就是希望能夠提供他們協助如果是來自華語程度好的學生我們在語言課程上請他們轉修英文就不要再修華文那如果是華文程度不足的學生呢就是繼續修華文那我們現在也協助因為傳統這些學校的老師呢教華文都是用教本地生的教法傳統教法那根本"},{"start":7147.11,"end":7147.731,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公益基金．．"},{"start":7165.647,"end":7167.509,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":7184.982,"end":7204.708,"text":"因為有些學習的年限比較長那學生來的時候年紀又比較大他們會遇到他們的這個叫做life circle的問題可能很快就認識女朋友很快認識男朋友然後就進入這個很快的結婚狀態然後又去建立家庭那我們事實上是看到確實有不少學生發生這樣的狀況那他就懷孕就離開退學了"},{"start":7209.149,"end":7226.185,"text":"所以今年我們有跟教育部也進一步爭取說有沒有可能改為休學的模式讓這些孩子這些學生他可能在家庭困難的這個階段一兩到兩年的時間度過以後他可以再回來同校同科系繼續恢復他的這個學籍課程"},{"start":7229.348,"end":7235.372,"text":"教育部今年跟我們溝通的結果他們有同意我們來執行那我相信有這兩項措施之後呢明後年我們學生的學習成效應當會有比較顯著的提升跟改善我們會持續來觀察對跟委員長有提到所謂的這個休學的這制度目前三家市是目前"},{"start":7248.601,"end":7249.962,"text":"三家市僑生專班已實行10年"},{"start":7276.363,"end":7276.904,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員陳冠廷委員你坐在那邊"},{"start":7314.473,"end":7314.693,"text":"陳委員早安"},{"start":7325.137,"end":7340.125,"text":"委員長早委員長這個我們新南向政策裡面針對教育人才的計畫中是希望吸引東南亞籍的外國的留學生然後希望透過專業的訓練機制讓這些學生有機會能夠在台灣工作然後加值嘛"},{"start":7340.825,"end":7357.754,"text":"可是我看僑委會的工作項目上面的三大面向112年的成效產學攜手合作僑生班是目標是5178人那實質是只有4000多人那海外青年技術訓練班目標是3500多人那實質上面是大概1595人那一般僑外學生目標是600人實質上是卻只有295人"},{"start":7364.404,"end":7366.145,"text":"我從預算書中有看到說僑員會針對擴大培育跟這個流用僑生計劃有4年的計劃從1、2年開始總共要編36億2000多萬元"},{"start":7375.851,"end":7393.916,"text":"那13年大概有5億8千萬明年是有匡列大概7億6千多萬來執行這個計劃可是我們從112年的績效評估數字這三大這個面向來流財的人數是總共是5959人那佔原目標的大概64%"},{"start":7395.396,"end":7415.888,"text":"如果我們再把國發會的原計劃2030年的目標留財17萬人的比例來講的話那僅達3.5%我想請教委員長我們編列這麼高的預算來去攬財來去留財那是不是沒有什麼效益那有什麼可以改善的計劃原因到底是在哪裡"},{"start":7417.082,"end":7438.147,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們早期一百零三年零四年開始做這個實驗性計劃的時候並沒有把這個制度呢的長期做清楚的規劃那當時確實學生人數也很少我們從一百多個兩百三百這樣慢慢開始那後來發現說這些學生他們"},{"start":7443.308,"end":7468.826,"text":"三年念完四年念完就回去了所以這個未能完成學業的比例是相當的高那所以後來我們開始做這個計畫的擴大版的時候那就發現說要精進改變兩件事情第一個就是說我們要把學生的年齡要設限如果他30歲才來讀他不可能的他一下子家裡就有什麼事情他就走了"},{"start":7469.426,"end":7471.167,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金．（僑務委員會主管信託基金．．"},{"start":7496.784,"end":7500.385,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬"},{"start":7521.191,"end":7537.532,"text":"一萬多人我們錄取六千多人那最後來就學也達到了五千七百人所以我們是倍數的這個成長的速度那這幾年我們就是因為發現到說第一個我們這個方案有改變那個誘因"},{"start":7538.954,"end":7540.795,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":7562.97,"end":7576.426,"text":"剛才提到的是僑生還有這個還有我們新南向的部分另外一個是我們的海外華語文的學習深耕計劃那經費是一億三千萬左右那比一一三年度又多了大概10%那僅僅"},{"start":7579.704,"end":7592.063,"text":"檢視我們1、2年的成果就好了有定22個目標但是只有6項達標所以沒有達到標準值是超過72.73%可能是我們的華語推廣是遇到一個瓶頸我想請教"},{"start":7595.18,"end":7614.228,"text":"華語學習確實是不容易如果特別是完全沒有基礎的但是如果說我們千里迢迢邀請這些人來台灣來培訓有沒有辦法說不管是經費消耗較高的往返機票或者是說可以參加的人數非常有限嘛就是說你看原定目標是10人才來14人嘛"},{"start":7614.648,"end":7635.869,"text":"我想說是不是可以換位思考讓我們的師資走出去直接到橋地辦理這樣子派出去的總指教師可以開枝散葉這樣效果會不會更好等於說與其叫他們40個人過來不如我們派一個人過去他甚至可以教40個人的40個班那這個整個整體效益就會做完整的改變不知道委員長看這樣子的說法怎麼樣"},{"start":7636.209,"end":7640.072,"text":"我非常同意委員的這個說法跟建議事實上我們後來就是調整成說我們是一年去海外巡迴培訓或者辦研討會那一年是在國內來辦理"},{"start":7651.699,"end":7672.016,"text":"所以我們比較兩次的差異跟這個成效那有部分的老師是仍然覺得說有一趟機會可以回到臺灣他們可以連結到更多的資源所以我們去年跟今年分別都有辦理在海外以及在國內的這個師資培育"},{"start":7674.378,"end":7689.793,"text":"好 謝謝委員長我只是提供另外一個換位思考是它的必要性都有但是做資源的有效運用更重要是因為我看執行率整個我們僑委會的執行率可能是有遇到一些挑戰是所以這個部分我們下午的時候我們再來討論好的謝謝委員關心謝謝委員提醒謝謝"},{"start":7698.624,"end":7722.591,"text":"好接下來進行尋答委員是王逸川委員王逸川委員王逸川委員不在接下來進行尋答委員徐巧欣委員這來的真是措手不及啊不曉得前一個人在幹什麼謝謝主席我們有請徐佳欣委員長來委員長請"},{"start":7728.908,"end":7748.232,"text":"徐委員早安早安那在1106年的時候啊這個時任的這個僑委會的委員長是前考試委員吳欣欣那當時有一個風波的爭議事件是呢羅智政委員開記者會說有多位僑務委員呢赴大陸交流的事件"},{"start":7748.712,"end":7764.835,"text":"那那個時候呢我們看報導上面有談到有一些這個僑務委員他們去參加了中國大陸的統戰活動那所以就呈報上級機關建議免除其職務然後呢也免除了這個八名僑務人員的榮譽值的頭銜這是有這樣子一個新聞的那當時僑委會的這個態度非常的明確"},{"start":7774.578,"end":7793.829,"text":"當然後續有引發僑界有抗議投書批評僑委會的做法等等的那我想要問一下現在的僑委會的態度是不是依舊那就是說如果復路參加你們認定的所謂的中國大陸的活動你認為是統戰的話就是說新政上面那就會免除其職務"},{"start":7795.753,"end":7824.793,"text":"事實上我們在聘任榮譽職的這個相關原則裡面都有已經註明非常的清楚因為僑務委員是有大院呢通過的法律依據那由總統來聘任所以僑務委員的慎重性是很高那他們在僑界所代表的這個高度跟重要性也是很高所以這個案子我知道他"},{"start":7825.613,"end":7839.897,"text":"如果當時參加的是一般的所謂大陸的訪行並不會有問題但是他是特別跟官方有這個公開的見面而且也露出媒體所以這件事情才會引發當時的爭議"},{"start":7842.979,"end":7852.151,"text":"我們看一下另外一個案例是底特律的僑務委員盧曼欽女士她其實就出現了違反中華民國僑務委員僑務委員會榮譽職人選這個臨聘要點"},{"start":7858.479,"end":7885.226,"text":"那哪裡呢就是這個我們接到的信件內容是這樣寫的就是這個女士呢她在2020年前是長年把中共的五星旗掛在她公司的大門外說是業務的需要那她本身從大陸進口五金生意在美國經銷客戶都是當地的公司其實並不需要放五星旗在門口增加業務那呢海外台商在大陸投資採購除非是親共者"},{"start":7885.686,"end":7911.304,"text":"否則在大陸以外的公司因為你要看他地點其實並不是在中國大陸去自願性的懸掛五星旗那他是中華民國的僑務顧問雖然他也有放中華民國的國旗但是這種同時放兩邊國旗的方式我個人覺得非常的不可取所以呢我相信真正愛中華民國那把我們台灣的利益放在第一位的人"},{"start":7911.824,"end":7940.627,"text":"不會去把中華民國的國旗跟五星旗同時懸掛那但是呢我們看這個是他投訴的這個公司名義上面你可以看到確實都還放著這個照片就是呢同時放了五星旗跟同時放了這個中華民國的國旗那呢該公司的網站上也有一樣的建築物跟崗位的旗子圖可以證明呢這個google map的建築物跟公司所在地的是一樣的"},{"start":7941.428,"end":7957.011,"text":"那我想要問一下2017年僑委會的立場到大陸去參加活動都不行那請問那僑務委員他所擁有的公司這樣子去掛五星旗是可以的嗎委員我不是說去中國大陸的活動都不行我剛剛特別說是針對跟官方我的問題是說那像他這樣子的行為擔任這個僑務委員你覺得"},{"start":7965.933,"end":7970.775,"text":"他在當時他現在這公司已經早就賣掉了他已經全部賣掉而且他在擔任僑務委員的當時開始他全部都他只剩下掛美國國旗而已那當時他確實基於有業務上客戶來拜訪等等的需求所以他把國旗全部一併都只要有交往的客戶他通通全部一併擺放"},{"start":7989.701,"end":8005.981,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8006.081,"end":8026.32,"text":"那可是他其實那我問你喔那他懸掛這個五星期的時間點在2000年2020以前2020這是最後的一年2020年的7月他是2021年被我們2021年才被我們聘任的那你們怎麼會去聘任一個先前有過懸掛五星期跟我沒有辦法回答這個問題因為那時候"},{"start":8028.121,"end":8038.045,"text":"不是我負責的好那所以你們我就是想要問的問題是說未來你們在聆聘這個我們僑務委員的時候會不會再針對這個部分做更深入的調查因為對我來說我看到這樣子的一個事實然後我經過查證之後我覺得非常的驚訝因為呢其實這是很簡易就可以查證的事情然後我們的僑報也有很多人就是有當下就有反應但是我們的僑委會那個時候我們是置之不理的情況"},{"start":8056.912,"end":8074.734,"text":"那我覺得呢如果未來還有類似的狀況發生就是說我們領選出來的僑務委員他同時去懸掛中華人民共和國的國旗跟中華民國的國旗委員他並沒有同時他在2020年他就已經沒有年底他就取把這些都拿掉了但是2021年才被我們聘任"},{"start":8075.575,"end":8096.2,"text":"但是問題是說他先前的這個行為那你說我因為要參選這個僑務委員我就拿掉了然後我就覺得說那我就我就沒有問題了這個我覺得我也不太能夠同意就是說你對於國家的認同程度到哪裡這個難道都不會被你們在聆聽的時候有所扣分嗎委員我想他們這是商業的需求並不是國家忠誠的問題因為客戶來訪他有要商業的需求"},{"start":8099.701,"end":8100.341,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員沈博洋委員"},{"start":8140.934,"end":8141.856,"text":"謝謝主席有請委員長謝謝來委員長請"},{"start":8149.19,"end":8174.743,"text":"森委員早安早安這個今天這個早上事情的確是比較多一點但我們還是希望能夠大家辛苦了對希望能夠順利的審查預算那我大部分都是根據這個之前有持續過的內容然後有提出幾個這個凍結或者說主決議所以這邊我就大概追問幾個事項就好了因為時間也有限剩下的可能等一下在審查的時候再說啦那這個上次有提過就是那一個他們在海外選舉啦"},{"start":8179.844,"end":8194.588,"text":"韓國華僑有無戶籍國民的護照和中華人民共和國的護照這件事情後來追的狀況是如何?因為我知道他不是官方他是屬於民間他理論上跟僑委會可能也有一定的聯繫不知道這件事情的後續如何?他們後面的這個"},{"start":8202.926,"end":8209.844,"text":"華僑協會的會長事實上早期因為我們在提供怎麼樣"},{"start":8212.098,"end":8234.984,"text":"對他早期確實是用中華民國國籍但他沒有戶籍我們在韓國大部分的僑民都是這種狀態甚至連中華民國國籍都沒有那這個是他後面才去辦中華人民共和國的護照因為為了方便嘛那時候中國其實很愛發護照是沒有錯所以但是我們仍然有非常多的"},{"start":8237.464,"end":8258.91,"text":"韓國僑包仍然在這個過程當中即便沒有拿到中華民國護照他們也不去辦這個中華人民共和國護照那我們近年來是有鼓勵他們說他們可以應該辦韓國的護照因為他們是定居在韓國已經有永久居留權了那早期他們就是多數是希望能夠向台灣中華民國來申辦"},{"start":8260.47,"end":8284.911,"text":"但是我們當時的法規依據有很多的限制所以現在只有少部分疏訊規劃的人士是有拿到這個無戶籍國民的護照這樣的一個情形謝謝委員長因為這個並不是說他一定是滲透或什麼的因為他們早期做生意等等的方便他去辦了中國的護照但現在說真的中國的護照也不好用了所以去鼓勵他們去辦當地國的護照等等之類的或許是一個比較好的解法"},{"start":8285.071,"end":8311.586,"text":"其實委員講的對他們其實是喜歡台灣護照而不是喜歡中國護照因為台灣免簽國有111個那這個中國只有三四十個那我們在這個比較上來說很多僑胞在韓國確實是都很希望拿到中華民國的這個護照這樣他們有助於辦理免簽這樣子的一個方便性"},{"start":8313.047,"end":8319.351,"text":"另外一個就是說這個因為這一次這個我們的總統有去過境那去過境去參訪的時候呢我們看到有這個一堆名單啦這個名單就是說他們直接登報嘛說這個台獨終歸死路一條啦那這個裡面有很多的這個協會有些名稱其實蠻中性的有些中國統一促進會那種到處都是和平統一促進會那個我們都知道是中國的但我發現這裡面有蠻多像我說什麼"},{"start":8339.426,"end":8351.916,"text":"美國馬祖基金會這個也在台獨死如一條所以美國七類協會所以這邊只是要提醒啦我相信僑務委員會可能也有一定的掌握就是顯然我們有很多海外的團體它的名稱聽起來很中性但它做出來的事情完全是違反台灣利益的這些都是過去中共統戰扶持的僑團那同時是可能一個僑團掛三個這個名稱這樣的情況一個機構兩個牌子他們可以到三個牌子就是這樣子對對對所以我就想說特別要注意這樣的事情"},{"start":8368.789,"end":8383.355,"text":"因為畢竟我們在外面很容易跟這些協會可能不一定是活動啊或者交流啊等等之類的但是他們的立場其實是完全反對所以近年來我們都會鼓勵有我的僑團或者是基本上就從中華民國台灣去成立的僑團呢能夠用英文的方式去附註是from Taiwan這樣大家彼此有一個比較清楚的區隔OK"},{"start":8391.998,"end":8396.941,"text":"謝謝委員長另外一個就是說因為我們這一次有看到就是說去強化這個僑界的聯繫那時候因為也有提到就是說法律戰、輿論戰現在比較夯就是說對於海外僑胞對這件事情的了解還有他應該要怎麼幫助那因為當時在質詢的時候有說過會有一些計畫但因為這計畫在預算書也直接看不出來所以我待會兒可能會問一下這個詳細的計畫跟這個凍結有關的事項所以這邊就稍微提醒一下好的 謝謝"},{"start":8420.854,"end":8425.66,"text":"再來就是這一個宣傳的路徑就是說因為這邊有提到就是說僑務新聞資訊傳媒服務這個編列增加了這個這個388萬對那這一個增加的他最主要是用在哪裡我覺得因為錢要花在刀口上我覺得這個是必要的"},{"start":8439.856,"end":8449.602,"text":"但是問題要怎麼要畫在刀口上?現在這個部分的計畫是什麼?跟委員報告,事實上我們有一加五的這個官媒那一是我們的僑務電子報那五就是包括IGXFB這個"},{"start":8456.767,"end":8458.488,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":8487.076,"end":8511.37,"text":"因為近年來我們工資在提升然後我們在這個編輯上我們也發現說僑胞隨時因應很多現在新的政策資訊的需求我們都超額的去壓榨了那些廠商所以我們認為說不應該長期這樣下去應該要合理的來反映這樣的一個情況所以我們適時的增加了一點點費用是在人事上面"},{"start":8512.25,"end":8534.808,"text":"這個身價我覺得不是什麼問題啦我覺得透明化是好事不然的話反對黨很喜歡講說什麼大外宣等等之類的但是對我們來講這不是什麼我們又不是在洗白我們有什麼人權的侵害這跟大外宣一點關係都沒有但是有一定的透明化有助於等一下的討論那最後一個喬森就學的就是說我們喬森在學在台灣就是要怎麼留得比較久這個就等到我們後面在審查的時候我再來詢問"},{"start":8535.509,"end":8547.317,"text":"好的好謝謝謝謝委員長謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝沈博洋委員委員長請回接下來進行詢答委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來進行詢答委員是黃仁委員薛主席有請我們委員長"},{"start":8570.032,"end":8570.498,"text":"黃�爺你好你好"},{"start":8572.762,"end":8601.012,"text":"我的問題很簡單就是有關於產協專班三家市的這個產協攜手合作的僑生專班從2014年起僑生這個僑委會聯合教育部推出的計畫那對象是16到22歲擁有東亞東南亞屈果的身份證的僑生只要先在當地"},{"start":8601.852,"end":8621.798,"text":"我國駐外的機構考過考試通過之後出街的華語能力測試就可以申請了來台就讀高職期間注射費由我國全額補助這些畢業後可直接就讀到科技大學"},{"start":8626.46,"end":8643.324,"text":"這個問題我想請教一下我們的委員長有關於採息專班的目的為何能夠在這個地方協用合一接連中華民國本席同意"},{"start":8646.603,"end":8655.313,"text":"產息專班的良善的初衷,尤其是臺灣少子化問題越來越嚴重,喬森而言能夠在臺灣優質的"},{"start":8661.42,"end":8679.674,"text":"既指教育環境中學習對僑務來說只能提高僑親對我國的一個凝聚力但是現在我們慢慢發覺到現在是有點變質而且他們會借用這個產息專班來台灣"},{"start":8683.877,"end":8696.92,"text":"工作甚至不願意讀書那借用這個名稱裡面就在臺灣裡面就業就職那這個這個如何將來以後如何導正來回答一下好不好"},{"start":8697.52,"end":8701.902,"text":"謝謝黃委員的提示確實委員的觀察我也有同樣的一些觀察我們早期因為學生的年齡沒有給他設限所以來台就讀的學生年紀偏大他們確實是經濟動機強於技術或者是學位的學習"},{"start":8723.089,"end":8746.806,"text":"因此在今年開始我們就設定就是來臺讀書三家室的年齡必須在22歲以下這樣子的話他們的年比較年輕的時候他們比較能夠專心去學習而且我們也保障他們在學校的學習上面我們進一步提升華語的這個教學讓部分原來學生"},{"start":8747.466,"end":8748.686,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金．（僑務委員會主管信託基金．（僑務委員會主管信託基金．．"},{"start":8775.133,"end":8796.302,"text":"二、提升老師的教學品質今年我們已經找了技高端就是大專院校的科技大學以及技高的這些高職技術型高職學校教師主任及校長來開會就是希望提供他們一個新的計劃案"},{"start":8797.543,"end":8800.445,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（"},{"start":8823.297,"end":8824.458,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":8847.477,"end":8867.725,"text":"這個問題是因為產修專班是一個本意的好的出發但是現在很多就是淪為仲介就收起費用那另外就是因為學習的環境不佳是受到很多的批評所以根本學生都不想學習了所以造成了很多的問題所在"},{"start":8869.105,"end":8896.93,"text":"那另外就是說有的學校只想拿補助就以這個假借這個名稱裡面拿補助所以我希望你們導正這樣的一個對沒有錯現在上修到22歲才可以對沒有錯這樣的話降低了這一些不想讀書而且不想寫寫拿這個名稱拿到一個補助所以這樣的一個方案來講的話我想"},{"start":8898.15,"end":8901.293,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒跟委員補充一下有關於仲介這事情我們是非常嚴格在審查不瞞委員說今年確實有某一個國家有個非常明確有仲介行為我們把他全部的學生全部不予誤取"},{"start":8915.644,"end":8917.026,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬"},{"start":8938.948,"end":8948.571,"text":"因為你們這樣子修正的話才能夠更精進好不好好的好謝謝謝謝謝謝黃委員好謝謝黃委員謝謝委員長接下來有請王定宇委員好謝謝主席麻煩委員長新委員長謝謝"},{"start":8967.079,"end":8990.648,"text":"王昭偉早安委員長早時間不多我先問一個我覺得我們可以一起努力的問題在前兩個禮拜我們立法院很多同事一起到馬來西亞吉隆坡參加我們亞總的年會那當中我們有去看了台灣學校在吉隆坡的台灣學校貴會的阮昭雄副委員長也有出席是"},{"start":8991.508,"end":9010.609,"text":"那馬來西亞的吉隆坡台灣學校其實在東南亞大概有4所台灣學校那馬來西亞這所台灣學校我們去看了他從幼兒園到高中他學的是繁體中文他用的是台灣的108課綱老師是拿台灣的資格更難能可貴的是馬來西亞承認他的學歷"},{"start":9011.61,"end":9027.19,"text":"而且馬來西亞還同意他可以招收八個國家那邊我有看到韓國的學生啊看到那個馬來西亞自己本國的學生招收八個國家學生到裡面然後今年他們的高中部畢業生百分之百到台灣讀大學"},{"start":9028.868,"end":9058.067,"text":"坦白講我去看的是蠻感動的那個學校掛著我們的國旗然後上著繁體中文用的是我們學校我們國家的課程還被馬來西亞因為馬來西亞我們都知道他在一帶一路跟中國關係很好表示這個學校辦得好到他們捨不得把你否決掉那我現在問題來了我要請教就是你知道我們的在海外的我們台籍的學生從國小到高中其實是有補助的"},{"start":9059.212,"end":9067.283,"text":"在中國地區在中國呢我們的所謂的台商學校每個學生每學年補助多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":9068.427,"end":9090.493,"text":"你不曉得三萬五千元就在中國的臺商學校每學年上下學期補助三萬五千元的學費是我們臺灣補助喔因為他是我們臺灣是教育部補助的然後呢我們在馬來西亞在海外的臺灣學校像這個吉隆坡臺灣學校你知道我們補助多少錢"},{"start":9092.47,"end":9113.23,"text":"我們基本上沒有補助學費有一萬塊我們是五千五千上下學期各五千那我就不懂了一樣是台灣人的子弟在中國讀補助每學年三萬五千元台灣的子弟在吉隆坡讀補助上學期五千下學期五千補助一萬嗎"},{"start":9115.566,"end":9122.745,"text":"來源可能不同的部會但我必須要講對一個台商或者在海外的台灣人來講我的孩子就是台灣的孩子"},{"start":9124.229,"end":9150.054,"text":"那吉隆坡的台灣學校辦得不錯我剛才念他的成績辦得不錯啊課綱是108課綱啊讀的是台灣的書啊課本也不會被人家塗黑黑的啊在中國的台商學校看到中華民國還給你塗成黑字欸國旗化成黑旗還要審批你的教科書在中國要被審查結果一個學生補助三萬五我沒有意見那是我們台灣的子弟"},{"start":9151.154,"end":9168.3,"text":"父母在中國經商孩子有必要受教育那我們的納稅人補助自己的子弟OK的那為什麼我們台商在馬來西亞就補助一萬塊而已跟委員報告這部分的補助全部都是來自教育部那預算也都編在教育部你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":9169.06,"end":9196.443,"text":"我也覺得應該要有一致性那重點在於說我們在東南亞其實有總共五所越南、泰國、馬來西亞印尼有兩所然後我們東北亞事實上日本有三所台灣學校或者華僑學校我們叫做中華學校事實上這個補助的金額呢我的理解是教育部自己去訂的"},{"start":9197.264,"end":9222.304,"text":"那重點是東南亞這五個學校他們現在不是全部都是臺灣中華民國籍的學生他們也有相當外籍的所以委員長我現在講我剛才是強調我知道我一開始是說有八個國家的學生嘛我現在講的是我們臺灣的子弟在海外讀臺灣學校吉隆坡這所他就叫臺灣school從幼兒園到高三然後他升國期用我們的課綱"},{"start":9224.105,"end":9224.706,"text":"為什麼馬來西亞越南就一學年補助一萬?"},{"start":9245.822,"end":9257.245,"text":"對於這樣子優良他如果用的是別國的課綱名字又隱晦課程被審查老師用外國人我沒有意見可是這個是台灣學校用我們的課綱我們的教材"},{"start":9257.665,"end":9257.965,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":9275.777,"end":9299.319,"text":"您要講我也可以羅列在中國的台商小學該有都有都不一樣我現在講一樣的名目叫做學費補助針對台藝的台籍的學生的學費補助所以今天他在馬來西亞他在越南他在印尼一學年我們現在是補助一萬塊可是他如果是在中國那邊讀台商小學一學年三萬五千塊那我覺得"},{"start":9300.301,"end":9305.158,"text":"確實很不公平講不出一個道理來嘛講不出一個道理北部都一樣都台灣人除了東西"},{"start":9306.937,"end":9335.561,"text":"坦白講在東南亞讀的東西還更像台灣的那他百分之一百高中畢業都到台灣讀大學所以我覺得不患寡而患不均啊你們要跟教育部談那我覺得我們那天去看三個黨的委員都認為這該處理我們那天在那邊大家都認為該處理所以請你正式跟教育部講這幾所用著我們國家的國旗台灣的名稱台灣的108課綱台灣的教材子弟又是我們台灣的子女的話"},{"start":9336.001,"end":9338.262,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9359.491,"end":9374.102,"text":"非常感謝委員對我們這個大力的協助我們這些僑校真的辦學都辦得非常的辛苦但是他們也品質非常的優良你還是要去監督,不好的還是要檢討但是我剛才講說這個公平性至少要建立起來是好謝謝委員謝謝王委員謝謝委員長接下來有請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":9391.405,"end":9394.07,"text":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請委員長來 委員長請"},{"start":9401.766,"end":9430.634,"text":"養護員您好您好我們再來討論留住人才的議題面對少子化跟高齡化的這個嚴重問題呢那麼我們缺工已經成為重大的這個危機所以這是政府必須要去面對的一個議題那麼所以如何能夠留住僑生也是我們僑委會呢非常的重要僑生的人才有很多都很精準而且很棒的"},{"start":9431.394,"end":9455.001,"text":"那所以僑委會你們擴大培育及留用僑生計畫你在112年到115年當中我們看到僑生的人數是17000多那麼海青班的部分是3100多但是我們看到去年你的目標你的目標你這個僑生留台評點的制度裡頭留用的是3544人"},{"start":9457.122,"end":9464.189,"text":"那所以產學合作的這個專班的僑生入學5178人海清班的600個那不過三項的這個數字告訴你也就是都沒有達標比你預期的都沒有達標"},{"start":9475.32,"end":9503.252,"text":"甚至前兩項實際上我們目標要簽人但是也都沒有在這樣的情況之下你要怎麼樣協助僑生畢業後能夠留在臺灣解決臺灣的缺工問題這第一個萬一如果他願意要回到他的母國那你可以不可以協助在母國的這個臺商這個公司那這樣子也可以兩全其美請說明"},{"start":9505.237,"end":9520.606,"text":"謝謝楊委員我很同意楊委員的提醒就是說怎麼樣讓培育過的學生可以盡可能的留下來為我所用那去年開始呢因此我們就發現說用可能一個"},{"start":9521.647,"end":9522.207,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":9540.114,"end":9566.204,"text":"所以本席要求你你把你們去年在做的沒有辦法達到你自己預計的標準你要怎麼樣去精準改善這是本席要聽的是你順便資料給本席好謝謝第二個本席跟你討論語言的部分華語現在很多人全世界很多人都尤其外國人他非常的希望學習華語需求是高的需求是高的"},{"start":9566.784,"end":9590.519,"text":"但是而且也是我國展現國力很重要的一個基準點這個華語你認不認同我很認同很認同我們來討論本期也跟你討論過也就是你們在111年到114年你的總經費4.4億多你以美國跟歐洲為基準橋下成立台灣華語文學習中心你希望能夠"},{"start":9592.021,"end":9602.957,"text":"讓當地的人可以來學習那麼你也介於施肢培育教材供應數位學習這樣的方式以及文化的活動但是我看到你的你訂定的22項關鍵的指標裡頭你只有6項他是達標"},{"start":9608.164,"end":9611.245,"text":"十六項不是不達標所以你等於七層桌都不達標為什麼僑委會你每一次自己制定的目標都不達到這個本錢很納悶欸以你的能力不應當如此欸為什麼會如此所以我要請教委員長這個部分你要怎麼樣去解決哪有一個政府的部門你自己定出來二十二項十六項都沒有達標跟委員報告"},{"start":9635.771,"end":9639.933,"text":"這個方案是在疫情期間開辦然後開辦的時候呢確實當時會有一些資訊的評估在之前有一些落差那去年我開始接受這個職務做這個方案的時候我們就開始跟國發會討論我們這個22項指標是不是合理所以我們現在已經大幅的改變我們的指標今年我們就達標的這個成績就提高很多"},{"start":9662.264,"end":9679.35,"text":"提高很多還是沒有達標所以本市要求你把你改進的方案要怎麼做你會集中在歐美地區嗎未來下一階段的目標會開放全球開放全球不是只有集中在歐美地區嗎沒有了我們次年的計畫結束以後就會開放全球"},{"start":9679.85,"end":9698.719,"text":"方案要怎麼做因為一個政府達到七成都不達標這個很離譜所以你要怎麼樣去改善你順便資料給本席你的答案是未來是全球信託的我最後給你一個功課一分鐘就好我給你一個功課因為我本席上次跟你討論過也就是我們的智能委員會"},{"start":9700.08,"end":9722.013,"text":"你由原先的這個1.0的哀喬卡到現在智慧型的2.0這個哀喬卡你反而在你的2.0二代裡頭你申請的數字反而是更少現在所有的卡上次本席跟討論過你還沒有把你精準方案給本席因為到現在你們申請的這個卡只達到海外僑民的3%"},{"start":9726.636,"end":9727.296,"text":"過去第一代是花了五年才達到十萬張"},{"start":9744.224,"end":9748.625,"text":"第二代這個愛喬卡我們只用兩年的時間到現在為止其實已經超過8萬多張了所以我們以每年的速度來說我們其實是超前以前很多委員長本集告訴你一個答案目前所申請的只有達到海外僑民的3%你要怎麼去解決委員你這個數字是7月的我們現在已經到12月了"},{"start":9766.87,"end":9776.798,"text":"委員這是七月的數字我們現在已經八萬了所以總總統是海外僑民的三趴你要怎麼樣這麼好的為什麼人家不願意去做好對不對你應該把你的基金方案給本席好的那怎麼樣達到你的目標我們就繼續提供好不好我們會持續的提供謝謝"},{"start":9787.568,"end":9789.83,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員馬文君委員馬文君委員馬文君委員不在接下來進行詢答委員林益君委員"},{"start":9818.864,"end":9821.745,"text":"謝謝主席有請委員長來委員長請林委員林昭薇你好委員長好因為今天時間有限那個委員長你就只要重點簡單回答我有三個問題像僑委會主要的功能就是幫助全國僑胞在各地安居樂業同時團結海外僑胞的民間力量讓我們國家在國際上會更加的壯大"},{"start":9846.255,"end":9849.336,"text":"那委員長你知道嗎我們在海外有很多僑團嘛所以我們現在會因為國內的政黨的傾向不同所以會有不同派系的團體像我今年八月份到美國僑社的時候就發現有經過分明的兩派中華民國派和台派一個是全美台灣同鄉聯誼會"},{"start":9867.76,"end":9868.321,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金．．"},{"start":9886.84,"end":9888.921,"text":"怎麼樣就是說請問委員長面對這麼尷尬的問題你們如何溝通協調面對這樣的處理尤其讓這種不同政黨立場的僑社也可以團結及意見一致呢畢竟我們僑團就是我們臺灣民間外交最好的大使團所以我想說面對這些外交的問題委員長要如何處理呢"},{"start":9908.591,"end":9915.955,"text":"中華會館的成立他們都是早期的這個中國移民老僑事實上不一定跟中華民國有發生關係因為你看他成立的時間在18九幾年都已經成立了那時候中華民國都還沒有誕生嘛"},{"start":9923.678,"end":9947.797,"text":"但是這些僑胞確實早期是促進中華民國在革命的時候捐款很重要的力量之一所以他們至今仍然是以支持自由民主的價值所以我們跟這些傳統僑社近年來我們有更好的溝通那由於美中貿易戰等等的這種競合大家逐漸看清楚中國的面目所以包括這些傳統僑社近年來在沒有任何我們給他利益的狀況下"},{"start":9952.261,"end":9953.422,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9968.63,"end":9971.893,"text":"因為臺灣的早期中華民國還在戒嚴時期的歷史產物所遺留下來但是至今我在2020年之後來到僑委會世界大概也已經繞了三四十個國家我有一個很欣喜的發現跟委員報告就是說不管現在是所謂的中華民國派或者是臺派基本上大家已經有一個共識"},{"start":9995.151,"end":10004.454,"text":"大家第一個都從台灣來自台灣第二個對支持台灣自由民主也很有共識所以我認為大家現在可以放棄過去那種對立的一個姿態甚至國內雖然有不同的政黨傾向可是他們現在甚至可以一起辦升旗典禮"},{"start":10013.897,"end":10015.078,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金．（僑務委員會主管信託基金．．"},{"start":10041.033,"end":10061.925,"text":"有趨近的一致那第二個問題就是說委員長你知道現在有關對岸中國大陸的孔子學院嗎近期在西方其實已經關閉了不少但是據本席了解設置在美國大學的孔子學院也剩不到5個所以雖然西方國家對孔子學院的質疑聲量非常高但是國際媒體現在發現孔子學院在阿拉伯世界的"},{"start":10062.225,"end":10078.154,"text":"中東還有北非還有非洲地區南美洲的數量開始持續的擴張而且成為重點發展地區那請問僑委會有沒有掌握呢還有是有沒有做好最相關的因應呢因為你們的報告內容有寫說114年要強化全球佈局那委員長你有沒有信心讓我們在臺灣華語文學習中心可以進駐這些國家還是設立更多的這些然後取代孔子學院呢"},{"start":10090.841,"end":10112.192,"text":"事實上我們跟童子學院完全不在同一個level因為它是政治上的大外宣那我們開設華語文學習中心事實上是對各個國家的文化融合或者是族群和諧共處都有很好的幫助那這13年多的時間在美國以及歐洲十多個國家"},{"start":10113.132,"end":10117.895,"text":"經過這樣子的一個執行都受到各國的歡迎而且包括像美國國務院都還主動幫我們宣傳那我們也樂觀其成在下一個階段的中長程級計劃的時候我們在2026年開始我們會擴大到全球所以就不只設限在歐洲或是美國可能包括其他的州像歐洲以外的所以還是會持續擴展就對了是的"},{"start":10138.926,"end":10148.193,"text":"對 我們會向全球性擴展包括 亞洲 大洋洲其他的各州 東南美洲只要他們有意願 興趣我們都會願意去協助他們來設立那經過設立的單位都是屬於當地的NGO組織僑委會是站在協府的立場給他們前幾年提供一定的補助"},{"start":10159.122,"end":10161.084,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金．（僑務委員會主管信託基金．．"},{"start":10174.099,"end":10177.362,"text":"第三個問題就是說僑委會辦理產學攜手合作的僑生專班107年到110年你們根據各個地方像馬來西亞、泰國、越南這些都僑台商需求的餐飲管理的服務為主但是最近還有國發會為了因應我國的產業用人的需求110年特別召開了僑生專班的轉型會議然後也針對了製造業營造業還有長照農業還有電子商務等五大類科"},{"start":10203.522,"end":10207.063,"text":"學生為主但是我發現僑生專班的實際招生的結果雖然17校開設的是試班但報到人數的話占預定招收人數進不到試程而其中選擇五大類科者與預期相當非常的大就相差很大那請問原因為何還有請問委員長對此問題你是否有什麼檢討的對策呢"},{"start":10226.75,"end":10254.793,"text":"好委員我把這個詳細的資料補充到您的辦公室再跟您進一步詳細說明好不好這數字有一點他寫錯了其實是這個是2022年也就是我們第一年開始擴大舉辦的那個時間但是我們預定招收人數應當不是這個6270那年還在疫情的管制當中去年呢我們就已經突破5000多了今年我們已經6000多對我會把資料提供給您所以我們已經都超標跟達標了"},{"start":10256.755,"end":10279.194,"text":"謝謝林宜君召委委員長請回今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有王逸川委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆"},{"start":10279.935,"end":10302.532,"text":"或要求補充資料者請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供那我們今天在機密報告跟詢答的時候已經把機密預算審查完略那該進行書面報告的請客尊保密規定來回答相關委員那我們現在呢"},{"start":10303.973,"end":10330.211,"text":"請布置協商場地。相關列席官員待會休息後就協商位置。我們來處理明年度僑委會相關的預算。現在休息10分鐘。王市長"},{"start":10334.746,"end":10337.819,"text":"我現在主持會議你待會好不好你待會你過過"},{"start":11140.987,"end":11147.809,"text":"我們要審到天荒地老怎麼可以審到天荒地老"},{"start":11161.394,"end":11187.382,"text":"好來我們現在來恢復開會那今天要審查僑委會的公開預算還有他兩個那兩筆也一起處理嗎沒有我們今天只處理公務預算那機密預算已經處理完均了好我們現在我先處理兩件事情第一個陳永康委員剛才特別跟本席說他在58案到68案跟"},{"start":11188.082,"end":11189.543,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分。（詢答及處理"},{"start":11209.718,"end":11211.599,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":11234.625,"end":11254.359,"text":"相關的預算那全部就是變成統一減列一百萬元那其他的同仁們省到相關預算如果有其他想法的話那我們就一併並案處理然後可以用雲芝的方式來進行可以自行調整啦對自行調整謝謝好謝謝徐小新委員那個僑委會有記錄起來嗎我們討論那個案子的時候你們要提出來好那我們現在就先從"},{"start":11261.724,"end":11286.151,"text":"第一案到第二案我們有合併同樣的我們以分支計劃來做合併然後待會請僑委會如果已經跟提案委員達成共識直接講共識結論我們留多一點時間去討論有爭議的沒有爭議的我們就報告結論比如說同意造劣或者凍結多少數好我們現在先處理第一案到第二案併案處理請僑委會說明"},{"start":11292.798,"end":11298.652,"text":"第一案第二案分別是林一斤等一下林一斤委員在嘛我們不在就不處理那個林楚瑩委員不在好來繼續"},{"start":11300.655,"end":11320.984,"text":"第一案跟第二案分別都是林益君委員跟林楚映委員針對我們的媒宣執行率未達標的這個部分提出建議那凍結金額呢因為後面也有好幾位委員的提案跟本案都有相關聯是不是可以我們一起合併剛剛那個徐曉信委員的16案他同意合併刪除100然後剛剛馬委員的7案呢他贊成統統只凍100"},{"start":11329.248,"end":11332.391,"text":"在場馬文君委員、黃蓉委員、羅美玲委員、李玉娟委員、陳冠廷委員有關沒宣的預算目前我聽到兩個數字一個是凍結100一個是減劣100"},{"start":11348.55,"end":11368.855,"text":"如果我們待會我們是不是一併就是說因為坦白講僑委會的預算不多他們的一百跟別人一百佔比不一樣大所以我們是不是這樣子乾脆就是檢列一百凍結一百兩個都做然後我們就把這些案子做一個整理有沒有意見那個羅美玲委員"},{"start":11370.782,"end":11393.324,"text":"我們待會再看是以誰的做主題案主席你意思是說對於這一個埃喬卡的文宣包含埃喬卡的部分是不是沒有埃喬卡沒有在這裡面埃喬卡沒有在裡面有關梅宣的因為主席剛剛點名到我我在想說我剛才是場面上的我每個都要問一下我以為你在講那個埃喬卡我再重複說一次"},{"start":11394.065,"end":11410.371,"text":"有關媒宣的部分我們就是合併全部合併凍結100檢列100那待會請醫生提醒我到處理到那個案子的時候我們再看以誰當主題案其他病案處理這樣各位在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":11412.795,"end":11441.471,"text":"關廷委員沒有意見我們待會就不多討論以結論來處理所以第一案跟第二案我們待會就是合併凍結100、檢列100以誰為主題案我們最後再來處理來第三跟第四案的部分請喬委會說明第三案、第四案分別是瞿小新委員檢列10萬馬文君委員檢列210但經過溝通以後兩位都同意照列非常感謝委員"},{"start":11443.915,"end":11450.65,"text":"第三跟第四案同意照列來第五到第十一案這個是埃喬卡嘛第五到十一案請僑委會說明"},{"start":11453.408,"end":11460.69,"text":"愛小卡有非常多委員的關心分別有林楚英委員、王定宇委員、馬文君委員、陳冠廷委員、林益君委員及黃仁委員那大家的這個對我們質詢或者是編測的都是說目前發卡量還未達標那這一部分呢我們是不是建議我們所有委員可以一起併案"},{"start":11477.854,"end":11492.911,"text":"凍結10萬然後因為這一筆費用只是管理費用100多萬而已金額數字並不大好那個林益君委員還有沒有其他委員的意見還有黃委員羅美玲好先從林益君召委開始"},{"start":11493.373,"end":11494.274,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":11523.616,"end":11525.958,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11548.257,"end":11568.592,"text":"有關於這個埃喬卡發行量少的這個部分我看到很多委員是放在這個管理費用的部分責心管理跟維護那我的部分是放在18案綜合規劃業務這個你們要一起處理還是說要個別因為內容是一樣的可是動在不同的項目主席這個部分要怎麼處理"},{"start":11573.424,"end":11578.131,"text":"因為這個科目很大,埃喬卡有點是放在裡面的一小塊啦我先詢問一下好不好,各位委員跟馬委員很有意見委員長我要請問一下,你們埃喬卡到底目的是什麼?"},{"start":11591.311,"end":11598.477,"text":"跟召委及各位委員報告當時同委員長時代他認為說我們碰到疫情然後加上現在的這個數位化的運作可以跨越國界那大家帶實體卡又容易遺失所以在這樣的動機之下第二個呢大的意思是說希望能夠透過這種數位化的來匯聚大的數據資料所以才啟動了這樣的一個"},{"start":11618.735,"end":11630.345,"text":"就是說僑委會的業務我坦白說不是這個啦然後當年在弄這個卡的時候我其實我們好幾個我跟馬偉我們都說你看這個卡是要做什麼就是說你拿這張卡你說要消費打折僑報又不住在我們這裡不過近年來我們有把愛僑卡的功能提升比方說僑報如果要返國我舉例子像APEC卡"},{"start":11643.917,"end":11668.585,"text":"Apeca台商就很喜歡因為申請那個之後呢我過海關可以快速通關如果你這個i喬卡經過嚴格的審核沒有犯罪紀錄啊優良啊等等的話他拿這張卡等於回國的時候啪就進來了我告訴你你發現他一定大聲就是說這個卡有沒有符合僑委會存在的目的服務的目的以及這個卡對僑胞來講到底好不好用他不管是實體或虛擬虛擬更麻煩虛擬要做好治安啊"},{"start":11672.086,"end":11690.366,"text":"否則一被竊你整個八萬人十萬人知道就不見了所以我坦白講我對這個卡的發行的目的以及對僑委會有限的預算下還要背這件事情到底有沒有必要你們真的要審慎思考我請馬文君委員我們兩個在這邊我們在這個委員會待罪久的這個卡從實體到虛擬我們都經過了"},{"start":11693.869,"end":11698.392,"text":"謝謝主席我們的看法跟主席一樣因為我們208萬5千多人你的發卡量其實只有8萬多每年都在提大家都在討論是不是"},{"start":11711.118,"end":11724.651,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法發揮它最大的功能對我們僑委會在本身上面的業務拓展有幫助的話事實上它的存費或者其他的方式其實我覺得可以認真考慮一下"},{"start":11725.831,"end":11727.873,"text":"關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及基金．．僑務委員會主管信託基金．．"},{"start":11754.018,"end":11758.17,"text":"我建議僑委會去思考跟出入境管的單位溝通"},{"start":11759.531,"end":11760.791,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬"},{"start":11784.156,"end":11785.416,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":11806.283,"end":11818.804,"text":"我看他們到東南亞國家他過關的時候那一張很有用這個給你參考好我們第5案到第11案並案凍結10萬元以羅美玲委員提案羅美玲沒有在這裡面"},{"start":11820.493,"end":11822.874,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":11843.624,"end":11863.577,"text":"林毅君委員的第10案改組決議主決議已經送來了我們待會再來宣讀好我們處理第12案到第13案這個我們剛已經討論過了有關沒宣的部分就是併案3、100、動100那最後沒宣的部分我們再來看以哪一位委員來做主題案好接下來第14案到第17案請說明"},{"start":11871.295,"end":11895.045,"text":"建於今年的國慶晚會這個報名的僑包人數增加很多但是國慶辦理晚會時間之前又碰到颱風所以造成一些不可確定的因素那雖然臺北市政府已經很積極的想要擴張這個人數不過最後我們還是只有分到2000個名額"},{"start":11896.986,"end":11921.597,"text":"所以這部分我們也希望說未來可以繼續為僑胞來爭取更多的這個這個座位數那另外就是我們也會更彈性的來跟主辦的單位地方政府進行相關的溝通那過往因為通常國慶日的慶典跟晚會都是8號或9號比較銜接在一起"},{"start":11922.017,"end":11922.857,"text":"來,看其他委員有沒有意見。來,馬文君委員。"},{"start":11949.026,"end":11955.051,"text":"這個部分好像當時有講要併動嘛併動二十主要是因為雖然我們這一次的國慶晚會大概我們僑胞的座位大概有兩千個不過到最後雖然是一票難求那我們有四千多個就是回國的僑胞可是只分配到兩千席可是在最後當"},{"start":11973.987,"end":11990.938,"text":"委員會當天我們僑包的座位是一片空蕩蕩沒有人的這個狀況其實也受到一些熱議所以這個部分未來在控管或地補上面其實也應該有一些相關的機制所以我們還是按照原來說的我們就凍結20萬"},{"start":11993.783,"end":12020.97,"text":"好來我來處理預算看那其他同仁有意見沒有的話徐曉鑫委員改組決議那王定宇委員馬文君委員徐曉鑫委員的凍結案合併17案就是併合併那個他是沒宣的那沒關係那就是王定宇委員跟馬文君委員的提案合併凍結20萬元以馬文君委員的為主提案那書面報告後動之好使得動之"},{"start":12021.63,"end":12021.85,"text":"第18到24案請說明"},{"start":12035.104,"end":12045.99,"text":"18案是剛剛羅美玲委員希望能夠併案的部分那在這部分事實上是有一少前面的部分是純粹是網路的維護營運費那這一部分的金額其實也是非常少"},{"start":12052.213,"end":12056.158,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":12070.496,"end":12077.459,"text":"對我剛剛有提出來因為剛剛前面已經在講挨敲卡所以我做18也是挨敲卡我想說我可以同意併案啦併到前面去沒有問題OK好謝謝羅委員那接下來19案的部分到"},{"start":12085.623,"end":12090.204,"text":"二十二案這個都是搭橋計劃那搭橋計劃事實上委員們都很關心我們也很高興說今年有2800個來申請可是我們因為經費有限只能錄取到60位所以今年我們有略略增加我們的預算所以明年這部分會擴大來錄取那所以是不是委員這部分我們錢已經很少了"},{"start":12110.649,"end":12136.151,"text":"如果可以的話就是我們合併那不要動這麼多看看是不是可以動20萬吧好不好好50萬也可以啦我們就委員長如果經過溝通有達到共識你們就直接講達到共識多少基本上也跟馬委員黃委員各位委員陳委員林委員都有溝通就是說併案動50然後書面報告"},{"start":12139.802,"end":12164.298,"text":"來陳冠廷委員委員長這個動武是我是沒有意見的可以但是就是說我們是希望說因為有一些反應說不公平不知道說到底是領選多少名學子還有計畫的橋梯弟等等的這個書面報告內容幫我們補正就可以了好不好好的好謝謝謝謝陳委員好那第23案的部分其實跟前面一次是不是委員也同意讓我們併案了所以這案也就照列"},{"start":12165.267,"end":12190.6,"text":"好我來處理23案照列黃元委員請說針對這個21案的這個部分剛好有提到這個原住民和新住民的學生的需求我想這個委員長也要特別注意到這一些方面所以在搭橋的計畫裡面能夠擴大讓國際事業及認識僑務工作的機會所以這邊有特別提到原住民還有新住民"},{"start":12191.861,"end":12193.403,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":12211.158,"end":12230.907,"text":"第18案羅美琳委員的提案雖然分支計劃不同但是跟埃喬卡有關我們把它併到前面埃喬卡的併動那第19到第24案以黃人委員的提案為主提案併動50萬那書面報告請涵蓋各委員關心的事情"},{"start":12234.514,"end":12236.274,"text":"二十三案馬委員同意照列再來我們處理第二十五案到第三十案請說明"},{"start":12262.284,"end":12263.205,"text":"馬委員OK 那林益君委員"},{"start":12289.827,"end":12289.967,"text":"林益君"},{"start":12300.326,"end":12324.93,"text":"我發現僑委會110年到112年的協輔僑團的成立急難救助協會的預算執行真的是比較偏低而且績效不佳所以雖然海外僑界急難救助的協會是要配合外交部各外的主管統一指揮但僑委會還是應該要想辦法積極運用結合僑胞的力量去協助而非把這個責任都把他甩過給外交部所以我堅持單獨凍結這個預算50萬讓僑委會檢討如何進行"},{"start":12329.531,"end":12348.083,"text":"打到協助救助的效果好我來處理預算跟各位有沒有意見25到30案原則上我們併案凍結50萬元以林一軍召委為主提案那其中沈伯陽委員跟徐曉新委員改組決議這樣有沒有問題那書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":12353.654,"end":12354.979,"text":"好,沒問題,我們二十五到三這樣處理來,31到34案請說明"},{"start":12362.143,"end":12384.933,"text":"這個是有關於僑社的工作研討會的邀訪我們邀訪團在這兩年都其實來參與的這些僑團領袖他們都非常肯定他們覺得來經過工作坊以後對他們的社團經營以及對他們的個人生涯發展都有很好的幫助所以是不是可以請委員繼續支持我們統一造列也溝通過了謝謝馬委員"},{"start":12391.997,"end":12393.979,"text":"第三十五到三十七案請說明"},{"start":12414.289,"end":12442.525,"text":"這是針對我們在海外的16個僑教中心那近年來因為我們僑教中心各國的這個就是説這個物價指數上漲然後各國的人力的這個成本他們也提高所以我們在這個部分的預算上確實是嚴重不足那是不是經過溝通補充資料後呢有陳冠廷委員李毅君委員跟馬文君委員都同意改為主決議"},{"start":12446.05,"end":12471.824,"text":"您議軍委員是也改成主決議謝謝來林委員請說謝謝主席我今天質詢的重點就是說海外華語文中心按照你的規劃就是持續的擴展所以今天也有講到是不是阿拉伯世界和中東北非那邊他們一直持續持續所以我們是不是有在這方面也有加強有未來是全球的OK好那我就改成主決議好謝謝委員"},{"start":12473.365,"end":12481.067,"text":"好這個是35到37來馬文君委員這個部分我們同意改成主決議可是我記得在上個年度其實也已經提到了就是我們現在目前有16處的海外的華僑文教中心可是大部分都是分配在北美尤其像澳洲就兩處可是澳洲那裡才五萬多人"},{"start":12498.891,"end":12517.518,"text":"那你其他我們僑包數比較多的泰國、馬來西亞、印尼、日本這邊其實都沒有海外僑交中心所以就這個部分一直都好像也沒有特別提出一個因應的作為那因法現在也都猜測了嘛所以就這個部分我們還是同意改成組決議不過就這個面向雖然我們經費不足可是還是應該要強化這個部分好 來林委員"},{"start":12524.56,"end":12542.347,"text":"我剛才同意那個馬委員的說法所以我覺得這個還是要一個規劃讓我們知道這樣主決議的時候也是要回覆來陳冠廷委員我是改主決議那一樣還有一個地方要提醒就是說喬喬中心是週末的時候他的需求最大所以說人員的調配希望說以後"},{"start":12543.367,"end":12545.729,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分"},{"start":12563.983,"end":12569.186,"text":"三十五案、三十六案、三十七案陳冠廷委員、林毅君委員、馬文君委員改組決議但是請僑委會就僑教中心分部的位置"},{"start":12586.957,"end":12595.83,"text":"人力資源的運用以及開提供服務的時間在回復主決議的時候請詳時說明再來38案到44案請說明"},{"start":12602.103,"end":12616.953,"text":"三十八案到四十四案呢主要就是針對我們在僑輕的培育計畫上面那因為有一些費用增加那麼最後經過溝通呢大家同意三八、三九、四十、四十四並案一起凍結五十然後書報書報後同意那我們都"},{"start":12627.438,"end":12627.898,"text":"各位委員有沒有其他意見?"},{"start":12642.972,"end":12666.27,"text":"沒有的話我們來處理這個預算數38案到44案有關媒宣的部分我們就併入我們之前的原則來處理我們剛已經決定併案3減100凍結100凍結的部分書面報告後使得凍支那簡列的部分科目執行調整那其餘的部分來併動50萬那併動的部分"},{"start":12672.394,"end":12677.558,"text":"以馬文君委員的提案為主提案並動50萬元書面報告後時的動資主席我再補充一下因為同一並動不過因為在39案的時候他這個內容大概比較不一樣就是我們在這個部分112年的時候有聘用國內的專案人力一名還有國外專案人員三名"},{"start":12697.071,"end":12700.293,"text":"一、一百一十三年的時候國內專案人力一名然後國外的專案人員變成五名像這樣子約用人員人數就是一直在增加當中可是他到底做什麼國內國外他分別他是執行什麼樣的業務然後他的成效是什麼你必須要增加這樣的人數所以這個部分也要一併說明清楚"},{"start":12721.746,"end":12737.877,"text":"主席我補充報告一下因為我八月份跟林委員我們去德州喬教中心他是全世界最大的喬教中心那成效也是最好的所以他的業務負荷比較多所以他增加那個人在那邊是他需要增加人數的"},{"start":12741.139,"end":12759.068,"text":"我們其實這幾年喬州中心的業務都增加很多那因為我們人力呢沒有辦法增加所以我們在這樣的狀況之下乙類僱員跟鄰僱也都是被外交部控管的所以在業務增加的狀況之下我們只能用專案人力來補充所以請委員支持真的很感謝"},{"start":12759.608,"end":12767.976,"text":"我們38案到44案以馬文君委員的第40案為主題案並案凍結50萬元那書面報告後時的凍支書面報告請涵蓋剛才委員詢問的部分所以請僑委會"},{"start":12776.104,"end":12797.881,"text":"做記錄人請務必做詳史來因為委員其實我今天感覺的出來了大家不是對你們預算有問題是希望你們在有些部分說明清楚做得更好這個很善意的建議請你們去回答的時候一定要回答到那有關沒宣的部分我們一樣並案處理待會再來處理好第45案陳冠廷委員這個請僑委會說明"},{"start":12803.414,"end":12823.043,"text":"經過跟陳委員的這個溝通呢瞭解陳委員對我們的督促方向所以陳委員同意改為主決議我們也會遵照同意只是說一樣就是因為預算變多可是目標值卻降低這樣子是有點奇怪的再麻煩在主決議回覆的時候請涵蓋這個部分45案改主決議來接下來處理46到52案請說明"},{"start":12829.34,"end":12847.492,"text":"46到52案是針對著我們華語文學習中心還有所有在海外的這個橋校的師資在培育上面我們是鼓勵我們橋校的老師呢可以進一步進入到當地的主流教師取得執照所以過去有訂立這樣的一個指標那事實上近年來我們有觀察到"},{"start":12852.935,"end":12859.257,"text":"各個不管在美國或歐洲的這個僑校他們已經逐漸的朝上這個目標而且越辦越好然後主流的教師呢也跟我們開始有靠近因為他們知道說我們編的教材還有我們的師資培育都是他們所需要的所以這方面我們未來會繼續呈現成果給委員看是不是遵照委員之前的溝通馬雲居委員同意改組決議那陳委員是不是也可以一起併案這個處理"},{"start":12883.835,"end":12905.888,"text":"還是我們連同後面的業務費用都一併就沒關係這個我們來處理是因為都是同一個類型各位委員還有沒有什麼要垂詢的部分沒有的話這樣子我如果那個宣打有錯誤的話請各位委員隨時提出沒有問題46案馬文君委員提案改組決議那另外47、49、50、51、52"},{"start":12912.072,"end":12927.709,"text":"以陳冠廷委員的第47案為主提案並案凍結50萬元書面報告後使得凍支48案有關梅宣的部分我們剛才已經確定處理的原則到時候並案一併處理好接下來處理53案到57案請僑委會說明"},{"start":12932.468,"end":12943.213,"text":"五十三案到五十七案的部分扣除五十七案已經就是剛剛講的沒宣並案處理那上面有馬文君委員羅美林委員林益君委員呢跟所提的這個幾項跟喬教的這個文化活動有相關的呢經溝通後都同意照列謝謝各位委員來各位有沒有意見來請馬文君委員"},{"start":12957.287,"end":12985.608,"text":"我們剛好兩個案子我們都同意照列5356都同意照列不過在像沖石海外華僑文教服中心住外單位這個文化跟民俗器材因為剛開始來談的時候它執行率比較低可能不到4成可是到最後12月的時候其實大概執行率就把它補足可是好像都是買原住民的服裝"},{"start":12986.468,"end":12986.528,"text":"羅美玲委員"},{"start":13006.523,"end":13024.596,"text":"我的54案其實跟其他委員的這個提案內容是不一樣的我是針對這個僑生的對全球僑校學生的這個僑生歌唱比賽因為我們覺得說這應該要做推廣其實對於這個僑生歌唱比賽其實這孩子的素質其實都很高的"},{"start":13024.656,"end":13024.996,"text":"我請教一下,什麼樣的版權問題可以一個月?"},{"start":13052.632,"end":13057.208,"text":"因為有版權應該是應該連一次都不行只會有一個月可以"},{"start":13058.517,"end":13064.762,"text":"因為這幾年我們的歌唱比賽初賽跟複賽都是在線上AI只有決賽的部分是有實體比賽那實體比賽的時候因為我們是委託某一個這個比如說電視台啦或者某一個影劇公司所以他來籌辦這個活動的時候其實我們跟他有簽約啦就是說影片上我們是可以播放的但是我們不能下推廣就是這樣子"},{"start":13085.879,"end":13087.12,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13096.403,"end":13096.423,"text":"委員長（"},{"start":13123.516,"end":13124.216,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":13144.201,"end":13160.532,"text":"好沒關係既然委員都同意我們剛才是53到57案同意照列但是剛才委員詢問的部分雖然你不用書面報告其實這個你辦了一個活動尤其是跨國競的網路上的點閱率其實就觸及率了"},{"start":13161.312,"end":13170.877,"text":"我覺得觸及力現在是common sense了我看這樣子好了啦因為我在想說因為這個案就就提案就只有我在提喔我在想是不是還是一樣動少一點沒關係本來我就動不多了啦就50萬而已是不是可以動少一點然後還是或者我們針對你的部分來弄一個主決議好不好就是說你對我們事實上這個是因為這是活動之後的這樣子啊那個羅美林委員的提案"},{"start":13188.891,"end":13189.451,"text":"五十八案到六十八案請僑委會說明"},{"start":13212.388,"end":13224.44,"text":"五十八到六十八當中有沒宣的部分就並案處理那針對五八、六五、六七、六八分別有這個同意凍結一百書面報告後凍支那這當中有包括我們"},{"start":13238.072,"end":13253.015,"text":"六十五案的馬文君委員六十七案的也是馬文君委員六十八案的陳冠廷委員以及五十八案的徐小新委員其實徐小新委員那個好像也是沒宣的吧"},{"start":13253.696,"end":13269.487,"text":"對阿所以那個案58應該去掉所以是656768三桿合併動機一把來羅美玲委員我63應該也是喔63是不是也是沒宣的部分是嗎你寫的不是啊行銷宣傳你寫行銷培訓這樣好不好宣傳行銷業務這個有關來馬文君委員"},{"start":13275.261,"end":13281.783,"text":"這個有同一病棟可是我可能也要稍微提一下就這個部分因為僑校跟國內教育機構有合開線上的課程那它補助的情況在111年有4600多人112年就變成"},{"start":13291.826,"end":13307.197,"text":"一千兩百人到一百一十三年甚至下滑到七百八十幾人所以他人數一直驟減然後可能像這樣的執行率也沒有達到我們預期的效益這個部分可能也要再考量一下他當時的一個執行方式"},{"start":13310.279,"end":13311.12,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬"},{"start":13327.398,"end":13329.34,"text":"關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及基金．（僑務委員會主管信託基金"},{"start":13350.681,"end":13378.587,"text":"針對60案的這個部分我國掌握在大陸孔子學院遭各國退場的契機以各國搶進設立海外華語文學中心所以設定目標以美歐地區設立的100所114年度計劃即將結案提醒僑委會追求設立數量外後續要更注意到華語為學習中心的品質若是對教學品質的不佳"},{"start":13380.948,"end":13400.562,"text":"來輔導及退場好不好我這邊改動一百萬好來處理預算的部分除了梅宣並案處理以外我們58到68案是不是以陳永康委員的提案為主提案我們並案凍結一百萬元書面報告後使得凍支好同意"},{"start":13408.089,"end":13415.638,"text":"所以就是從58到68全部併案然後併案凍結100萬以陳永康委員的提案為主條沒錯接下來是69案到71案來敲尾會說明"},{"start":13425.002,"end":13440.995,"text":"這部分是委員關心有關於僑生的流用標準的問題那這部分我們一定一直有在精進那確實今年的這個評點流用人數的部分有在大幅增加我們未來其實這個評點是已經要日落了所以將來企業在僱用人的這個門檻就會下降你什麼時候日落"},{"start":13447.08,"end":13454.387,"text":"這個就是等那個勞動部公佈這是勞動部的規範不是我們的規範我們一直跟他們溝通我們說你們我們已經讓他們把那個上限的門檻拿掉然後現在又希望說他們未來他們現在是搭配那個中間人力的那個條例修法那個修法一通過這個就同時落日就是以他修法通過的日子為落日的日子對當時是這樣講的好那個羅美林委員"},{"start":13472.705,"end":13502.157,"text":"那評點誌好像今年已經落日了還沒有落日還沒有落日它是要搭配那個中階的人力的條例計畫一起配合落日對可是我印象當中它好像上線結束了啦就是天花板拿掉啦因為天花板我講了兩年他們終於同意了然後但是日落整個評點誌是要等那個中階的條例修正通過我們才能一起配合"},{"start":13502.597,"end":13525.894,"text":"那個69到71案看起來大家是同意照列因為評點制大家關心很久那也要搭配勞動部的中階勞工的招募相關的法令所以我剛才我們這個會議記錄要寫很清楚他那個法一通過你們這邊就結束了69到71案同意照列72到74案請說明"},{"start":13528.641,"end":13541.324,"text":"72案到74案主要是針對本會的這個海外信託基金的部分那這個經溝通後呢7273同意並動20萬元然後書面報告後通知謝謝我們陳冠廷委員跟馬文君委員來有沒有要提問來陳冠廷委員請說明"},{"start":13550.006,"end":13578.855,"text":"因為我們看這個收回的成效確實是很不髒本來我們是希望說至少要凍結兩百萬元但是既然已經有了這個我們辦公室已經有了這個同意的話還是希望說委員長能夠來仔細考慮一下這個業務到底是為什麼這麼多回來想要創業的但是都沒有辦法成功然後到最後變成這樣政治待遇這樣是不是請委員長之後把這個金融的部分幫我們補足一下到底是為什麼"},{"start":13579.295,"end":13585.419,"text":"好 我們把這個個案式的內容我們再提供給委員辦公室做參考 謝謝好 來馬文君委員這個部分我們提出來主要大概就是針對我們大概兩年的活動內容主題就是我們的專題講座活動內容其實都差不多比較沒有創新的這種可能做法然後也降低僑台商反國參訪交流的意願"},{"start":13608.652,"end":13609.773,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":13630.179,"end":13630.439,"text":"七十五到七十八案請說明"},{"start":13660.41,"end":13663.951,"text":"75到78是我們針對僑商的業務那有幾個主要三個案子是馬文君委員所提那徐曉信委員那個就是梅軒一樣的那美食的巡迴講座跟臺商的這個產業鏈精品獎的部分還有創意行銷的參網七項活動經跟委員這個溝通之後呢同意併案凍結50萬"},{"start":13691.892,"end":13695.489,"text":"那個馬文君委員其中一案有照列謝謝"},{"start":13698.571,"end":13723.7,"text":"七十六案照列那七十五還有七五、七八這兩個主要是因為我們七十交友會在辦2024台灣美食國際巡迴講座的時候在資料上面顯示說我們舉辦十三場次的教學那參加人數高達一萬一千五百三十一人可是我們從書面報告的那個照片上面看這個有點"},{"start":13726.101,"end":13743.49,"text":"議員．．"},{"start":13743.49,"end":13747.053,"text":"像我們在美國有一些叫做台灣日的活動台灣yes然後文化節那這個呢動輒他們都是參與的活動人數上千上萬你那個巡迴講座你把別人辦的活動然後我們去參與的時候那不是我們的啊"},{"start":13762.887,"end":13763.728,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":13792.384,"end":13814.83,"text":"不是拉掉啦那個馬委員的意思我大概懂了比如說我辦個美食講座我跑去那個波士頓馬拉松的話我開玩笑我這個活動十萬人參加但是那個意義不大反而就是說你參加什麼活動這個活動本身比方說有一萬人參加但是我們的講座呢現場有數百人這個可能矜持一點大家反而好處"},{"start":13815.67,"end":13834.497,"text":"委員這個提示我剛剛上個禮拜才跟會內同仁特別提醒過我說你們報回來那個數字我一看我也覺得不太可能不是要你們不是要你們迴避參加大活動當然要掛在人家大活動啊是人家樹大樹樹蔭大我們得利也大嘛但是在報告的時候可能把它寫得精準一點對"},{"start":13835.097,"end":13850.212,"text":"好我們75到78案以馬文君委員提案的第75案為主提案並案凍結50萬那書面報告後使得凍資77案沒宣的部分我們就合併待會再一併處理好再來處理79到85案請說明"},{"start":13854.578,"end":13875.228,"text":"七十九到八十五案基本上是信託基金的業務那信託基金事實上我們待藏餘額近年來其實沒有微幅上升那我們信託基金的實際目的不是我們貸款給"},{"start":13878.129,"end":13879.19,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":13894.046,"end":13895.847,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":13920.199,"end":13936.377,"text":"對這個針對這個非洲計劃是在政府的重大政策但卻有先事件後劃把的一個問題所以雖然政府曾非洲商機非常的龐大但近年來我國對非洲貿易卻有衰退的顯示顯然非洲計劃"},{"start":13937.718,"end":13956.758,"text":"並未能發揮效能如今賴政府計劃要進一步推動非洲計劃2.0僑商經濟是僑委會最重要的業務僑委會也應該注意到要如何協助非洲僑商推廣的一個商機跟契機好不好所以改動10萬塊"},{"start":13957.932,"end":13984.633,"text":"好謝謝黃仁委員提醒好79-85案除了84案是併入梅宣一併處理有兩個梅宣8384都是對然後8282馬委員同意照列沒關係我來處理8384併入梅宣的案子來處理那79-85案以黃仁委員的79案為主題案那合併凍結10萬元書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":13987.896,"end":14010.353,"text":"好接下來來處理86到88案請說明86案87案88案是屬於沒宣部分那就並案處理那87案經過溝通以後馬委員的指導同意改為主決議然後86案馬委員也同意照列非常感謝"},{"start":14012.814,"end":14034.065,"text":"我們86到88案88案併入梅宣的山洞的處理那86個案這個同意照列87案改組決議接下來處理89案我先跟在場的委員溝通一下我們處理到晚再吃飯好我們把它處理完來大家沒有意見啦好來89案到101案請說明"},{"start":14040.257,"end":14059.564,"text":"八十九案到一百零一案都是針對著我們僑生的這個擴大培育計畫主要都是產息專班的部分那麼扣除一百案是沒宣這個抽出病案處理之外其餘的經溝通後呢同意凍結一百書面報告後凍支"},{"start":14064.183,"end":14091.156,"text":"來黃元委員然後接下來馬文君再來羅美林林益君好來開始針對92案現行的評點制經各界反映已有所放寬但本席提醒評點評點制放寬後可能會浮生出新的問題交委會應該隨時注意到僑生留台就業的權益並以僑生留台就業前確保能夠了解我國勞動權益"},{"start":14093.017,"end":14119.486,"text":"法規以申訴的管道所以改動為一百萬好接下來馬文君委員謝謝主席這個大概9798101這個部分其實有一些大概都是針對產學專班就這個計值還有我們在大學的這個部分其實我們大概是包括這樣子的預算"},{"start":14121.51,"end":14122.35,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":14143.882,"end":14147.785,"text":"事實的簡略然後也要說明清楚因為這樣對我們台灣的學生或者相關的這樣子的一個教育或福利是不是會有衝擊因為我們把這麼大筆的預算用在非僑生的身上我覺得這個不是很恰當所以這個部分我們希望可以有三棟然後也要把這個部分的執行狀況要說明清楚"},{"start":14172.944,"end":14201.722,"text":"那我事後來補充資料到委員辦公室進一步說明那個減劣數因為我看到的共識是沒有減劣數啦馬委員有沒有建議數我是減一千啦全部一起並動啦全部一起並動啦沒有你要減劣因為你增加太多你增加一億七千八百多萬委員我們今年這是非常高的金額因為沒有我們很清楚的對象不是我們原來的對象因為你增加的人數太多了"},{"start":14202.142,"end":14216.948,"text":"所以就這個簡略數我們還是希望可以就這個部分可能還是要把它說明清楚來我們待會討論那個委員長先稍後來羅美玲委員好那我的93案就主要還是針對3加4的這個產系專班"},{"start":14222.255,"end":14245.552,"text":"這個裏面的這個內容我有跟委員長其實做了很多的探討上次我們有提到僑外生的語言問題是造成學習障礙那再來今天我們也檢討了這個教學的這個品質真的是非常的這個堪慮那再來其實還有好多好多的事情其實都需要這個我們僑友會這邊用心比如說招生招生的這個仲介化也是非常的這個嚴重雖然說今年我們有"},{"start":14246.252,"end":14248.433,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":14274.266,"end":14274.406,"text":"林益鈞委員"},{"start":14285.798,"end":14297.207,"text":"謝謝主席因為我知道僑委會這幾年來其實配合政府的新南向政策擴大了產息僑生的專班三家式的教育體制但是問題是113年度的產學專班的開班類科和招收人數雖然112年有一點點成長但是還是不如預期而且僑委會應該要如何精進才能落實僑生還要留用的制度這個很重要而且它開辦的僑生專班其實"},{"start":14311.237,"end":14311.857,"text":"來 我來處理一下好不好"},{"start":14324.837,"end":14351.174,"text":"我還是要提醒僑務委員會不容許有扣護照的情形一定要提醒他們如果再犯的話那是移送法辦國際人權組織都在看這件事情這個不能犯也不容許以僑生之名義來台灣變奴工這個更不可以也不能以僑生的名義迴避我們不管是移工或勞基法相關規定我相信委員長對這方面也很重視"},{"start":14354.636,"end":14360.757,"text":"先處理三檢的部分以馬文君委員的提案為主提案檢列一百萬元因為他調得太高了啦然後對象因為沒有講清楚啊那時候來也大概沒有針對這個部分可以說明清楚我跟委員報告"},{"start":14383.242,"end":14391.188,"text":"還有之前大家所質疑的包括到學校哪些學校然後去做什麼樣的課程還有工作你們的數字因為我還講200看馬委員不同意你們是不是能夠接受的簡列數額"},{"start":14403.494,"end":14425.096,"text":"跟委員報告我們今年事實上在學費補助上我們已經不夠錢我們還去要了第二預備金了所以如果因為這些學生都已經進來讀書了事實上我們是超標我們今年是超過我們原來預計招生的額數所以我們今年預算又不夠然後如果再三減明年預算我們明年就變成更不夠不是要讓你們動不了"},{"start":14426.297,"end":14449.725,"text":"因為他明年是增加一億七千多萬你今年不夠你今年沒有這麼高額其實我們幫你的檢列數已經不高了我們剛才強調的重點是你這些學生的來源我們為什麼要編這樣的預算去補貼他來這裡這樣的念書你是幫學校找學生還是什麼當時你回答我的時候不是僑生"},{"start":14456.087,"end":14459.309,"text":"委員長請你記住你曾經跟我講的不是僑生因為你僑生的認定你從一千多人突然暴增到這麼多人你變成兩萬多人你認定的僑生的來源是怎麼來的我覺得這個是會有一些問題所以沒有辦法說明清楚我們才會覺得說你在增加這麼多的金額預算上面是非常高的我來一個妥協的版本好不好就是說呢我們"},{"start":14483.847,"end":14495.876,"text":"兩百,然後我們就是說我們我們就他寫兩百都不同意了怎麼可能同意動兩百是不是委員你要動一千的意思嗎是不是你要動一千是不是這個意思"},{"start":14499.653,"end":14506.137,"text":"不要減劣啦就動一清啦不要減劣啦因為你減劣數因為一減劣我們明年可能又要去要二倍金了因為學生已經進來了現在這個錢是要付你這個是一年度一年度要延續對它一直累積上去的你進來學生越多我一定要增加這麼多否則我不可能說這些學生還沒有畢業我都不付他學費啦"},{"start":14519.406,"end":14519.646,"text":"二、審查一、審查一、審查一、審查一、"},{"start":14549.406,"end":14553.49,"text":"因為那都是一個蘿蔔一個坑我們不可能說那有多少學生呢我從2022年開始2022年進來的這個學生呢一個人要補助將近三萬塊然後他的人數是兩千多人然後到了去年是四千多人到了今年是六千多人所以第一年的時候我只要付兩千人的學費就好了"},{"start":14573.328,"end":14583.663,"text":"第二年我除了2000我還要再加4000多變成6000多那今年又增加6000多我明年要付12000多然後我明年又要再增加6000多我就變成要"},{"start":14585.512,"end":14586.753,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":14615.405,"end":14622.57,"text":"主席記得的話趙薇記得的話我們那時候其實針對他們保健單位他們在推薦的時候其實是非常嚴謹的那時候都只有一兩千人你突然一直增加然後暴增到這麼多我們覺得你的來源我們那時候你們跟我們說他只要學生願意來就好了你們是這麼說的我們不是說僑生那僑生的認定是怎麼認定的呢這怎麼認定的從哪裡來的對"},{"start":14644.665,"end":14664.303,"text":"那個我看這樣好不好馬委員我來這樣處理分別以陳永康委員跟那個沈伯陽委員各凍結五百萬就是一千你這邊減劣我們減劣兩百減劣數太少你增加了一億多我不知道對啊好啦你五百好了"},{"start":14670.959,"end":14673.48,"text":"委員我跟委員報告我們今年已經公告所有的學校"},{"start":14687.807,"end":14691.87,"text":"委員長不好意思那我又要去我們所有只要你們提出來我們預算都要照列那我們不用審啊你今天如果說你在這個部分是有問題是說金額不要差距那麼大啦五百萬有很大嗎你增加一億七千多萬欸你們今年跟去年增加數額多少"},{"start":14715.734,"end":14718.316,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":14744.994,"end":14745.014,"text":"委員應該這樣說"},{"start":14767.032,"end":14774.197,"text":"我們回到本質如果不是僑生如果你現在進來的被發現如果你要這樣算你一直說你們全部都是僑生如果我們查到那個如果不是你們要怎麼做如果我們要這麼嚴格來實行這個部分的話"},{"start":14784.164,"end":14785.566,"text":"委員長我提一下啦就做這件事情對我們國家好處在哪裡"},{"start":14802.04,"end":14804.341,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金．．"},{"start":14819.485,"end":14822.467,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":14848.223,"end":14851.784,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分"},{"start":14865.458,"end":14865.818,"text":"第89案到100（委員"},{"start":14892.017,"end":14921.223,"text":"我這樣子啦我跟馬委員承諾我明年延審你這樣承諾是不代表你今年沒有延審不是不是這樣不好啦我讓你們私下去溝通啦89案到101案凍結數的部分分別以陳永康委員的第91案以及沈伯陽委員的第99案分別凍結500萬但是怎麼併案麻煩醫生們抓一下同樣可不可以把它抓在一起不要讓我去分配啦抓起來"},{"start":14922.624,"end":14944.283,"text":"至於檢列數的部分馬文君委員的提案檢列數在哪裡在第98案他檢列數剛好就是500至於是不是要檢列到500你們這個案子請提醒我一下我們最後再回頭來處理羅美玲委員主席我可以堅持93案另外動嗎為什麼"},{"start":14950.972,"end":14968.414,"text":"委員我願意幫忙再處理主決議來加強這樣子因為病案處理之後你的案子也在裡面他的說明也要涵蓋也要做說明處理那我有注意到各位委員的平衡那個沈博洋委員"},{"start":14969.555,"end":14991.397,"text":"我快速講一下因為就是剛剛在質詢裡面有問到的我的99案然後就是到最後再幫忙給我一個書面就是因為最主要是僑生他退學的變多了所以就是這一個到底要怎麼去改進就只是希望知道這個部分而已謝謝他們退學了還留在這裡嗎還是就回僑居地馬上一退學一沒有學籍馬上就要回去不能留在這邊那個陳委員是不是可以說明一下你說退學很多是多少"},{"start":14994.281,"end":15021.9,"text":"我忘記確切的數字了那他就看到他是提高的早期我們基數是低啦所以那個看起來比例是高啦但是我們近年啦因為數額總計是高那退學的反而是少所以我的意思說你們思考一下如果你們退學的比例有一個比例那馬委員剛才的簡列500萬如果可以cover的過去我覺得我們現在就現在就把它處理掉我尊重馬委員啦好不好我尊重馬委員對這個案子我其實"},{"start":15025.583,"end":15049.962,"text":"八十九案到一百零一案本席宣告如下分別有兩個凍結案以陳永康委員的第九十一案合併委員處理凍結五百萬另外一個凍結案是沈伯洋委員的第九十九案一樣凍結五百萬合併委員提案處理這一個書面報告請涵蓋不管是羅美玲委員或相關委員的提案"},{"start":15051.063,"end":15070.074,"text":"隨詢一定要涵蓋在說明內書面報告後這個我們就精同意使得動之那另外檢列案的部分以馬文君委員的第98案為主題案檢列500萬元科目自行調整接下來處理102案到103案"},{"start":15075.482,"end":15094.751,"text":"一百零二案的部分經跟馬委員討論同意改為主決議一百零三案徐曉新委員是媒體廣宣所以併案媒體廣宣的話我先詢問在場委員意見因為含蓋的分支計劃跨了太多計劃"},{"start":15095.811,"end":15098.993,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分"},{"start":15111.741,"end":15113.464,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管收支公開及機密部分"},{"start":15128.044,"end":15129.626,"text":"各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":15143.923,"end":15160.788,"text":"這個案子要給徐曉欣委員因為它是全部併案一起16案的那可以啊那檢列案檢列案是要徐曉欣這樣好了檢列案以徐曉欣委員的可是他在前面我現在只要我用後面分支計畫會很麻煩嗯"},{"start":15170.247,"end":15195.935,"text":"此案只在112我們到112的時候一併處理就可以了好不好委員他要檢列還是凍結他要檢列100那凍結案用林益君委員的第一案來做凍結100萬元好不好林委員用他做凍結那其他相關的沒宣的凍結案我們的需要說明的都把它併到這裡面來但是後面有關凍結的我們就等於是同一照列待會檢列案我們會用112案徐曉清委員來做檢列案"},{"start":15200.708,"end":15201.728,"text":"102就遵照馬委員建議我們也改為主決議103案是病案104案也是媒體也是病案"},{"start":15224.049,"end":15247.945,"text":"來本席再重新宣告大家我處理的方式應該老同事都知道了盡量就是達到監督也盡量平衡剛才89案到101案我是不是把它拆成因為1000萬嘛我拆成三個案子一個是陳永康委員的來凍結這個300然後另外一個是陳伯陽委員凍結300然後羅美玲委員的凍結400這樣好不好"},{"start":15253.008,"end":15254.13,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":15267.927,"end":15274.55,"text":"八十九案到一百零一案分別以九十一陳永康委員的提案凍結三百萬九十三案的羅美玲委員凍結四百萬"},{"start":15296.294,"end":15316.694,"text":"九十九案的沈伯陽委員凍結三百萬至於合併的方式請醫生員自己抓了簡略案呢以前面的話書面報告經同意後使得凍支簡略案的部分以馬文君委員的第九十八案為簡略案簡略五百萬元呵募自行調整"},{"start":15317.435,"end":15346.615,"text":"每宣的凍結一百萬的部分以第一案林毅君委員林毅君召委的提案凍結一百萬那書面報告後經同意時的凍支後面的凍結案呢我們把提案的案由放進林毅君委員的提案裡面來一併說明但是後面為了方便醫生們處理等於就是同意招列這樣子好接下來來處理一百零二案到一百零三案請說明"},{"start":15348.055,"end":15361.462,"text":"一百零二案到一百零三案也是針對僑生就業的輔導那經跟馬委員溝通之後同意改為主決議那一百零三案一樣是沒宣的預算並按處理"},{"start":15365.516,"end":15381.925,"text":"一百零二案改組決議一百零三案呢這個凍結部分我們已經該並案處理了好接下來處理一百零四案我們就不處理了這是沒宣案我們待會一併處理一百零五到一百一十三案"},{"start":15383.666,"end":15405.702,"text":"全部都是沒宣我們就用112案徐巧欣委員原則上不在場不處理但是我們今天就是大家有這個默契共識之後我們就不挑戰這一點了好不好各位同仁我們就以徐巧欣委員的112案為簡列案簡列100萬元科目自行調整謝謝委員"},{"start":15408.524,"end":15425.275,"text":"我都沒有跟趙偉報告其中我們有一項是這個黃人委員的案子他不是他不是那個沒宣他改組決議那個113改組決議好不好那個待會宣讀這樣子的話"},{"start":15435.7,"end":15460.221,"text":"這個來來黃立委員請說表示一下針對110案的這個部分為什麼要改出這些因為後來知道就是徵聘一名約用人員專職在提升僑務電子報的效率是不是真的有具體的成效因此特別要求明年的9月前必須要有具體的成果顯現並向本委會提出一個報告"},{"start":15461.002,"end":15469.456,"text":"所以後來我改為組協議本來要動血的改為組協議以後到我的案子"},{"start":15470.373,"end":15494.279,"text":"一百一十七到一百二十都改為主決議以上謝謝一百一十七到一百二十他本來就主決議黃仁委員的一百一十案改主決議所以我們現在新增主決議十一案一二零至一到一二九我們先請宣讀新增的主決議部分有沒有準備好有的話來請宣讀"},{"start":15497.332,"end":15522.854,"text":"第120之一案有介與僑委會至106年起及發行僑包卡為發行量偏低影響支援使用效益建議僑委會為協助花蓮0403災後經濟振興亦應積極主動納入花東地區等各觀光景點為特約商店並振興國內觀光提案人委員林奕君等人"},{"start":15523.815,"end":15528.757,"text":"第121案經查僑委會綜合規劃業務工作計劃向下國內慶典活動接待服務分支計劃編列預算1930萬元主要為配合政府整體政策每年接待僑胞參加雙十國慶大會國慶晚會及燕活等大型活動僑委會列為國慶晚會主辦單位之一應緊急與承辦縣市政府協調爭取僑胞相關"},{"start":15552.769,"end":15581.358,"text":"之權益提供充分座位數並給予安排席次以利更多僑胞返臺參與盛事提案人委員徐巧欣等人。第122案我國於2022年1月1日成立全民防衛動員署作為整合跨部會徹徑各項動員之啟動單位僑委會作為海外僑胞聯繫之第一線臺海情勢發生時摺物旁帶成為連接海內外各種聯繫及其他管"},{"start":15582.078,"end":15608.009,"text":"業務管道事務之重責單位予以及早規劃相關事宜提案人委員沈伯陽等人。第123案為鼓勵僑民在海外懸掛中華民國國旗僑委會應持續提供海外各地所需之中華民國國旗及胸章可適時提供中華民國國旗或國旗胸章之樣式以立僑團在海外自行自作。提案人委員習曉新等人。第124案"},{"start":15610.487,"end":15625.235,"text":"僑委會目前在歐洲未設置僑教中心不利推動布局華語文教育市場。僑委會為服務全球僑胞予以事實研議並考量偵涉華僑文教服務中心之可行性。提案人為馬文君等人。"},{"start":15626.235,"end":15630.197,"text":"第125案僑委會辦理海外華語文學習深耕計畫112年僑委會輔助臺灣華語文學習中心開辦372班次學生2912人次雖然開辦班次及學生人次已達到預期目標為僑委會原先規劃目標值並不吻合建請僑委會應確實評估掌握臺灣華語文學習中心教材之需求及使用情形"},{"start":15655.126,"end":15669.374,"text":"提案人委員陳冠廷等人第126案僑委會辦理臺灣華語教學國際高峰會旨在結合政府與民間支援等場觀學力量對外推廣臺灣華語文教學的優勢同時輔助海外僑校及臺灣華語文"},{"start":15674.497,"end":15694.051,"text":"學習中心在地深耕發展僑委會為辦理臺灣華語文教學國際高峰會應著重邀請海外參與者擴大並提升海外參與之人數以促進海內外華語文教學連結與合作之目標提案人為馬文君等人。第126支議案"},{"start":15695.753,"end":15705.355,"text":"僑委會舉辦全球僑校學生及僑生歌唱大賽行之有年僑委會需積極擬定計劃加強及宣導提案人委員羅美林等人"},{"start":15706.867,"end":15729.641,"text":"第127案僑委會從110年起開始辦理全球青商潛力之心選拔及輔導活動該活動有無落實輔導青商事業發展凝聚青商對我之向心力不無疑議明年舉辦如何發揮預算效益與積極研討經濟措施提案委員馬文君等人第128案"},{"start":15731.986,"end":15740.196,"text":"僑委會114年度僑生回國升學及僑親培訓嚴刑（輔導海外僑生來臺升學及畢業留臺業務費編列479萬元（僑委會應討為徹徑相關僑生回國升學輔導機制（以為僑生就學資品職提案人為馬文君等人"},{"start":15750.928,"end":15776.045,"text":"第129案114年度僑委會預算案與第7目僑務新聞資訊及傳媒服務向下．．辦理僑務新聞資訊及傳媒服務中業務費之約用人員籌金預算編列80萬元．．有關新增用人力後之相關辦理成果．．請僑委會於9個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員黃仁等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":15778.24,"end":15792.044,"text":"在處理組決議之前本席剛才107案跟徐嘉欣委員參詳我們沒宣再多凍結50萬林益君你的100萬我不凍我另外多凍50萬107案徐嘉欣委員長OK我們107案就是凍結50萬該組決議已經宣讀完畢"},{"start":15803.735,"end":15821.987,"text":"要書面報告後使得動之不用經同意使得動之就好了那現在有關主決議我建議那個僑委會溝通好就說照案辦理那如果有修正文字就照文字修正照案辦理阿如果有意見再提出來好不好好我們來處理主決議從第114案開始來114案僑委會來用麥克風回答"},{"start":15828.412,"end":15832.675,"text":"同意照案辦理115案同意照案辦理116案同意照案辦理117案同意照案辦理118案同意照案辦理119案照案辦理120案經修正後照修正意見"},{"start":15850.697,"end":15866.834,"text":"遵照辦理第120案建議文字修條照文字修正後處理再來照文字修正後通過第120之一案這林益君委員的案同意遵照辦理我們照案通過第121案"},{"start":15872.332,"end":15881.224,"text":"同意遵照辦理好我們照案通過122案同意辦理照案通過123案同意辦理照案通過124案同意辦理照案通過125案同意辦理照案通過126案"},{"start":15891.658,"end":15903.729,"text":"稍微一下看一下126案可以照案通過好照案通過你們是照案辦理我是照案辦理沒關係來126-1之一看一下羅美玲委員的案同意同意啦照案通過來127案同意照案辦理好照案通過128案"},{"start":15918.66,"end":15947.566,"text":"同意照案辦理好照案通過129案好好看喔最後一案喔有9個月可以同意照案辦理好照案辦理好大家辛苦哈114年度中央政府總預算案關於僑務委員會收支公開及機密部分業已審查完略送請財政委員會會長後提報院會請問院會審議前是否需交由黨團學商"},{"start":15949.261,"end":15950.582,"text":"請推派一位委員做補充說明請推派"},{"start":15981.311,"end":15995.033,"text":"好本人甘晚休我們就推派王定宇委員做補充說明本次預算審查如有預算科目物質或金額調整我們授權議事人員處理有沒有意見"},{"start":15997.361,"end":16013.207,"text":"委員會主管兩項信託基金案本日完成報告及詢答我們會擇期繼續審查審查的時候就不再進行詢答了12月16、18、19日三天為一次會我們現在休息"},{"start":16031.767,"end":16048.571,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":16052.995,"end":16058.612,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"}]}},{"id":"158177","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158177","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1989aa2bdf9e0e36942925a05e1c517d1182c18c738e1db161a8b0863b4c8fed05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:14:59 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看看民進黨政府這些年來撥補臺電5000億 撥補勞保基金2670億反觀只撥補了退伍基金 當目前為止是294億 這對軍公教人員公平嗎"},{"start":135.472,"end":152.041,"text":"民進黨對付軍公教是毫不客氣的為了政治鬥爭、階級鬥爭不惜破壞信賴保護原則犧牲公務員的權益結果造成人民不再相信政府優秀的人才不願再進入到公務的體系根據統計公務員辭職的人數"},{"start":156.352,"end":172.125,"text":"從年改之後開始飆升從之前的七八百人提升到現在的兩千五百多人而高普考的報考人數呢也是呈現雪崩式的遞減公務人員自願退休的比例減少借齡退休的比例增加"},{"start":173.729,"end":201.062,"text":"不僅僅是如此這些年來我們看到物價是年年攀升但是薪水福利待遇卻變相的縮水只有微幅的調升但是完全不足以去回應物價的攀升再加上不斷調降的退休金等等的因素造成臺灣的優秀青年根本不願意進入到公務體系而既有的人員也擔心退休生活不保"},{"start":201.502,"end":228.772,"text":"所以一直要拖拖到最後藉臨退休那最後就是形成了一個惡性的循環民進黨政府他其實開了政府可以隨時違反承諾變更政策的先例那麼公教人員不僅必須面對不友善不公平的工作環境而且還無法保障他們的退休生活進而降低為人民服務的熱忱最後受害的還是國家和全體公民"},{"start":230.247,"end":248.135,"text":"很多人以為說年改的影響只有軍公教但是事實上影響的是各行各業今天政府可以任意的砍軍公教退休金難道明天就不能砍勞工砍國民年金嗎一旦讓政府自意的違背承諾那麼未來哪個產業哪個人還敢相信政府"},{"start":255.285,"end":281.111,"text":"本次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的修法充其量只是止血而已那麼將原本不應該刪減的軍公教人員退休金不再繼續扣減而不是溯及既往的全部恢復只是停止遞減軍公教的這個退休所的替代率而已軍公教人員已經是夠委屈了民進黨政府和民進黨的立委們竟然還在杯葛此案你們還有良心嗎"},{"start":282.091,"end":298.582,"text":"最後本席再次呼籲政府的誠信原則信賴保護一旦破壞各行各業都受害請大家不要心存僥倖今天有可能是軍公教明天就是你我隨時都有可能成為政府政策變更的受害者好謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請林志傑教授"}]}},{"id":"158163","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158163","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a18c2d15e41664c81642925a05e1c517d18f00481bd910a07319161ef466b908c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:30:48 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最近每一年的平均都超收的稅收就足夠去補之前 你砍了他五年的所以還要繼續再砍嗎而且明年的稅收還增加更多上個月財政部已經講了我們明年的財政會多出4千億所以第一個"},{"start":221.102,"end":244.793,"text":"國家財政沒有已經當初要犧牲我們的退休金工資料也已經不見了這是第一個第二個我們再看一下還有一個很大的改變以前為什麼要改革因為我們的退撫基金那個小水庫一直在講說錢不夠了錢不夠有很多原因現在有一個非常非常大的改變以前退撫基金的操作不當"},{"start":246.243,"end":260.555,"text":"所以他進來的錢非常的少大家看一下最近從108年年金改革以後我們退伏基金操作變好了因為公開透明了不要一直再去復盤了你看108年收益有10.62109年8.46你看除了有一年復的全部都超過兩位數所以你只要好好維持你的操作"},{"start":274.498,"end":289.066,"text":"總會沒有錢呢 大家看一下下一張當初改革原因是什麼因為之前的前20年我們的金公教把錢給了這個退伍基金之後操作亂七八糟前20年平均值有多少2.79欸當然那時候要做B座年金的改革啊可是大家對照一下最近這5年差了幾倍至少差了3倍"},{"start":302.805,"end":321.162,"text":"所以不只是我們的國庫現在開始有錢了退撫基金因為績效的增加退撫基金是有錢的所以包括剛剛年輕的朋友 終生帶來金鍋教代表不要擔心現在基金是有錢的只要管理者不要再亂搞這個地方是有錢的比較以前到現在另外大家也不要擔心這個基金會沒錢啊大家對照一下勞保"},{"start":329.62,"end":357.725,"text":"勞退基金最近這幾年我幫大家算了一下109年到114年撥補多少錢3870億所以勞動部的前部長何必這樣說啊撥補就是改革啊我們不反對撥補給勞工可是最近這幾年為什麼經過這樣的公務員的退休基金增加那麼少所以我上次執行的時候我特別拜託我們的前市部部長"},{"start":359.124,"end":359.364,"text":"要解決現在這個問題"},{"start":390.25,"end":396.011,"text":"他沒有什麼世代對立的問題啊因為你照顧到年長者退休的你照顧到現代的啊因為整個國家變得有錢了你甚至去看一個台電最近這三年已經要求撥補三千億出去了最近還有兩千億啊一堆的弊案 剛剛有人在提陳啟毅 台電綠能了光是一個光電弊案五六百一個燒不掉五六百億的那種虧空跑不掉腐爛的支出有多少"},{"start":419.761,"end":423.482,"text":"政府的責任不是應該讓弊案不要再發生不要再亂編錢嗎我前幾天上個禮拜五在議員會非常堅持砍了燃煤的預算250億那250億就可以省下來啊而且維護到我們的健康啊從國民黨到民進黨政府不是講嗎少燒煤啊火力發電裡面的煤要少一點啊你把250億砍掉拿來"},{"start":450.298,"end":462.403,"text":"幫勞工幫勞工退休不是很好嗎而且讓我們健康維持啊所以不要擔心沒有錢錢是有的好回到剛剛那一張我給大家看一下最重要的我剛剛講我現在講一個現在要解決問題現在解決問題就回到主管機關最專業的一個精算來解決問題那就回到考試院當初在聯改的時候的版本"},{"start":477.762,"end":507.202,"text":"我請大家一定要特別注意這件事情當初在年金改革的時候大部分人是沒有反對的除了可憐的親公叫退休人員之外可是我剛剛跟大家講歷史背景跟整個財收狀況已經不一樣了國家變有錢了我們的退撫基金變有錢了績效增加了撥補也可以增加了更重要我們用專業來解決問題什麼叫專業當初提出來最專業的主管機關版本是誰提的"},{"start":508.697,"end":524.733,"text":"考試院啊前系部現在部長在這邊當時考試院版本是怎麼樣從80%開始往下一年1%對不對可是當初當年在張連那個立法院表決的時候過的不是立法院專業版本欸他在民進黨多數的狀況之下段奕康高喊之下民進黨那時候有68席"},{"start":533.407,"end":557.837,"text":"他大砍他同樣你如果服務滿35年大家看一下你如果服務滿35年就一個軍工教你第一年你80%對不對分10年一年降1%降到70就停了可是後來民進黨主導之下過的不是主管機關考生的版本啊政治的力量進來了他出現了什麼他變成一開始就砍了5%從75開始每一年還降了1.5好那我現在請大家算一下"},{"start":563.704,"end":573.489,"text":"請大家算一下 經過這五年經過這五年 一開始降了5%五年一年1.5 已經降了多少12.5% 對不對我們的進攻價經過這五年到現在它已經被砍了12.5%了它是不是遠遠已經超過本來考試院的版本了是不是所以第一個回歸專業的精算"},{"start":592.759,"end":607.327,"text":"回到原來考試院的版本你現在砍的幅度已經超過原來考試院提的10年的標準了甚至多出了0.25%了第二個你現在國家有錢了所以我呼籲回到這個版本來 我們再看一下你目前5年一共砍了2774億可是很清楚現在國家"},{"start":620.117,"end":638.254,"text":"波普可以解決這個問題你績效改革也可以解決這個問題我最後講一下台灣民眾黨跟柯文哲在競選期間的我們的主張這也是最近我們在審查這個案子除了國民黨提案之外我們的主張柯文哲很清楚的講過"},{"start":640.339,"end":657.636,"text":"這個違背 當初這個年輕改革制裁問題違背了信賴保護原則 破壞了法不受既往的法治國的這個基礎私心靈敏 所以現在最重要的是什麼我們現在怎麼去幫助這些退休的金工教他特別提到一個點 就我剛剛講的 波普的問題他說我們以前管理不當他說管理不當 他去看過很多會計師啊"},{"start":662.163,"end":681.863,"text":"他說我們政府拿那個退伍基金去投資啊他說你如果蒙著眼睛去買那個前50檔CEO的你這30年來應該至少成長6倍啊你怎麼會沒錢呢結果你等於是好像有點像你拿我錢去賭博輸了還在砍我的這個預算我用最後這句話來政府講話都不算話以後誰要聽你的"},{"start":682.816,"end":708.933,"text":"您改改到現在他提出一個很重要的解決方案他一個原則舊的要盡量維持諾言新的要如何來處理該撥補就撥補所以柯文哲在競選期間中大選期間提出這個論點我們大部分民眾黨我們會依行這個方向去走所以我剛剛提到的既然已經改過了現在已經快到12月底了本席強烈的主張"},{"start":710.836,"end":736.633,"text":"停止年金逐年調價停止年金逐年調價從明年1月開始第一個他基金已經達標了他砍的幅數已經高過之前考試院提出的版本10年10%了已經達標了已經超過了第二個我們國家變有錢了我們的基金現在投資績效是好的請停止對金公教的繼續再下去改革下去就變成霸凌了"},{"start":737.173,"end":740.868,"text":"不要霸凌退休的進攻價 停止主任在記憶條件 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我們現在開會"},{"start":1779.36,"end":1807.012,"text":"本日議程是針對行政院函送提名公平交易委員會委員名單．李鎂續任委員並為主任委員．陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員．洪財隆續任委員．林慶堂為委員．請同意案我們今天特別舉辦公聽會聽取各位專家學者的意見我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為日後審查時的參考"},{"start":1808.953,"end":1832.451,"text":"好首先介紹今天我們參加今天公聽會各位的專家學者第一位我先介紹中正大學經濟系陳和泉陳教授謝謝歡迎陳教授謝謝第二位介紹亞洲大學財建法律學系吳瑩德教授系主任謝謝"},{"start":1835.777,"end":1854.148,"text":"第三位介紹大眾聯合法律事務所王明勇所長接下來介紹國立台灣科技大學科技管理研究所劉華美教授"},{"start":1859.81,"end":1882.501,"text":"好 謝謝介紹動物大學法學院 牛約正副教授 謝謝牛副教授好 介紹武漢法律事務所 黃國忠律師 謝謝黃律師世新大學傳播管理學系 郭乃峰副教授 謝謝最後一位介紹"},{"start":1885.018,"end":1894.615,"text":"雲林科技大學科技法律研究所 楊志傑教授今天與會的各位專家學者"},{"start":1895.543,"end":1919.153,"text":"今天跟大家宣布公聽會的程序如下首先會請學者專家發言以正反方教授為原則每位發言時間為8分鐘本委員要發言請自主一台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束後則按鈴兩聲好"},{"start":1925.016,"end":1927.705,"text":"我們首先請陳和泉教授發言"},{"start":1938.145,"end":1960.115,"text":"主席、各位委員、還有各位專家、學者們大家好我是中正大學經濟系陳和泉今天來這邊講講我對這四位被提名人的看法主任委員、被提名人是李美她也是現在的主委李委員在過去的四年任期中"},{"start":1960.655,"end":1980.15,"text":"他確實替公聽會完成了不少的任務推動尤其是在111年很辛苦的去發布了數位經濟與這個競爭政策的白皮書那這一部數位經濟白皮書之所以重要是因為在現階段的數位經濟市場競爭當下它的觀念"},{"start":1984.543,"end":2001.584,"text":"以及如何適用與既有的競爭架構目前都還在衍生發展當中國際上也是如此所以適用的框架上還在討論當中那我們這個白皮書一出來之後等於是走在國際上的前端"},{"start":2003.306,"end":2009.451,"text":"所以這非常相當的難得在去年公聽會辦了一個國際的研討會我們邀請到了韓國的學者來那在休息的時間呢這個韓國的學者對於我們有這樣一部數位競爭白皮書他也覺得非常的羨慕他認為這樣的一個作為相當的先進相當的好"},{"start":2028.306,"end":2052.9,"text":"那也不僅是韓國這個學者在訪談在這個開會當中的羨慕永光同時呢這樣的一部白皮書在2024年也就是今年了也獲得了這個Conferences的反托拉斯寫作的獎寫作獎這是亞洲唯一啊亞洲唯一所以這部這部數位是做的是相當成功那當然"},{"start":2055.122,"end":2080.899,"text":"這個李委員在過去的四年內在執法上也相當的嚴格同時在法律上也儘量的去與此俱進的去修訂了很多的相關的法律那像檢舉聯合行為的獎金發放修正公平法第21條修訂相關市場處理原則修正結合的相關法規縮短審查天數等等這一方面做的是這個"},{"start":2082.66,"end":2110.437,"text":"成績不錯副主任委員被提名人陳志民也是現在的副主任委員陳委員事實上在工讀博士學位的時候他是法律專長但他已經跨越了領域去修復利經濟這方面的概念所以我們的副主任委員他基本上在法律學跟經濟學復利經濟學這一塊的領域上他是同時兼具的"},{"start":2112.258,"end":2132.623,"text":"這個在學校的教學、學術研究或者在公務服務領域上他也都一直一直在競爭法的這個領域當中不斷的進行在理論研究、實務經歷上都做了長期的累積所以一個又兼具法律跟經濟知識學養的一個競爭法專家這相當難得所以能夠邀請的他"},{"start":2137.58,"end":2165.716,"text":"除續任副主任委員是相當好的選擇那他在這個國際業務上的推動可以說是公平會的引擎長期的參與OECD競爭委員會的活動跟他們密切合作積極的參與國際相關業務同時代理代表協助了OECD競爭法擴展競爭法擴展在亞洲地區的活動"},{"start":2167.932,"end":2191.897,"text":"也因為這樣子等同於把我們臺灣的這本國的這個競爭法的位階提升到了日韓這樣兩個國家同時被視為被OECD視為是一個成熟競爭執法的國家這非常的難得那在國內也不斷的提升公平法的訓練跟素養他在"},{"start":2193.097,"end":2204.555,"text":"公聽會．立法院第11屆第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會"},{"start":2206.004,"end":2207.185,"text":"公聽會．立法院第11屆第2會期經濟及法制兩委員會公聽會議"},{"start":2237.005,"end":2259.041,"text":"我個人覺得是相當的不錯相當的適任委員被提名人洪財隆也是現任的委員他是經濟學博士經濟學博士剛好可以在這個委員會裡頭扮演了關於我們經濟法案件之下決斷上所需要的經濟分析"},{"start":2260.702,"end":2272.193,"text":"經濟分析在公平法的案件上它扮演著相當重要的角色它需要由市場結構面上來普及廠商的競爭行為也當然需要檢視個別廠商策略背後的驅動誘因那這樣的一個行動行為上的脈絡因素呢就需要很需要依賴"},{"start":2283.944,"end":2311.722,"text":"經濟學專家提供剖析來作為案件判斷的基本資訊那當然他是提供一個旁證基本資訊不是主要的這個判決因素那過去的8年當中我們的洪委員在這個場域上他做出了十足的貢獻經濟學上的分析特別是在當前數位平台經濟的背景之下"},{"start":2312.583,"end":2318.932,"text":"各個不同用戶邊具有的效用互相影響的特性"},{"start":2319.997,"end":2349.524,"text":"那因此以前我們在做經濟分析的時候當中的許多要素呢在數位平台經濟之下它變成了高度的內生化跟動態化在分析上變得更為吃力那這個就必須要更有依賴於具有經濟邏輯思維的經濟學專家在先前步驟上做有效的廠商盈利模式跟競爭態勢上去做分析跟掌握所以經濟學的分析"},{"start":2350.086,"end":2350.87,"text":"在委員會裡確實是不可或缺的基礎"},{"start":2354.505,"end":2361.051,"text":"而我們的提名人．被提名人．洪財隆博士呢剛好可以提供這類判斷的基礎好那這個也非常的失贊好委員．被提名人．林慶堂是現任公聽會服務業競爭處處長林處長在公聽會服務長達30年一路由科研到處長那曾經在製造業競爭處、公聽競爭處、法律事務處"},{"start":2381.229,"end":2396.386,"text":"服務業競爭處各單位任職閑守會內許多部門業務跟專業所以在實務調查、產業分析、法律適用各方面都具有了豐富的實務經驗幫助了公聽會在業務上的推動"},{"start":2397.347,"end":2416.449,"text":"早期經手參與的案件有鋼捲鋼材業者聯合行為、機車業者限制業區銷售行為等等還有近期的在他處長任內的大案件比如有限電視系統業者與大型流動業未履行結合負擔條件的重罰案"},{"start":2417.362,"end":2433.237,"text":"還有在聯合業在我們國內大概聯合業是最普遍的了那這個包含了這個好樂迪的結合案然後遠傳電信亞太電信的結合案全年大潤發的結合案Fupenda"},{"start":2433.697,"end":2435.378,"text":"下位發言請亞洲大學財法系吳英德教授"},{"start":2469.071,"end":2492.697,"text":"主席以及在座各位學者專家大家早安我想這次首先先感謝委員會這邊的邀請針對這次公平會委員提名我發表個人的一些看法首先在這次提名的部分我想主要就是三位委員李美現任的主委"},{"start":2494.237,"end":2517.652,"text":"陳志民委員還有洪財隆委員三位都是續任只有一位新任是林慶堂委員除了三位這個續任的委員我想在過去的一些表現以及相關的一些學經濟背景大概也都為大家所熟知包括李美這個主委大家都擔任過經濟部商業室的司長陳志民"},{"start":2519.233,"end":2545.475,"text":"委員陳志民老師是中原大學法學院的院長那這個洪慶隆委員過去曾經擔任過臺灣經濟研究院的研究員那包括最後只有一位是新學那新學是林慶堂委員那承認公平會的競爭處處長那我想大概在人選上面我想可能在過去的經驗上面"},{"start":2546.255,"end":2546.495,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2563.281,"end":2577.532,"text":"政府在提名相關的這個人選上面也可以再綜合的考量其他不同的專業啦那譬如說在經濟上面的這個專業也可以再增加那麼再來就是說我們最近一些比較特殊的一些不要說個案"},{"start":2578.232,"end":2597.318,"text":"那比如說金融業的一些相關的一些複雜的一些案件那我想或許也可以增加一些金融方面的一些專家學者那或者是公司、財快這一方面的專家學者所以這樣子的話可能會讓我們公民會的這個功能能夠更加的完善那"},{"start":2598.438,"end":2619.574,"text":"接下來可能我就針對未來期許我希望說這個公聽會也許可以針對某些個案或者是說未來的一些方向希望這個未來這個委員如果順利續任的話那麼可以朝這個方向來努力首先一個是我們主委李美李主委那她在2021年的時候呢其實公聽會這邊已經有組成相關的這個"},{"start":2621.575,"end":2635.531,"text":"任務小組對於數位平台做了相關的產業的全面性的一個調查但是很可惜的是我到目前為止我好像似乎沒有看到這個調查的這個報告的這個結案或者是甚至有任何的進展"},{"start":2636.272,"end":2660.011,"text":"那雖然我稍微從這個新聞媒體以及相關的一些文件來看好像似乎公聽會對於這個數位平臺包括Facebook或者是說這個相關的這個這個平臺的這些情況呢認為說這個產業的這個涉及這個面向太多太複雜所以目前可能在這個相關的這個"},{"start":2662.993,"end":2688.244,"text":"處理上面可能也許有一些延宕但是當然我個人是期許說未來可以針對這個部分能夠再有一些更進一步的一些發展那就我所知目前澳洲其實也已經有相關的一些法令都已經陸陸續續都推出了所以我想或許我們公民會也可以針對這個部分可以再多一些琢磨那第二個部分我想大概是我們大家都非常關注就是在Uber Eats跟這個Fupenda這個併購案上面"},{"start":2689.685,"end":2707.766,"text":"那這個目前為止可能這個按照目前的這個審查這個期限眼看的就要到了就1、2、1、9就是過兩天就到了12月19號但是我想應該就是公聽會這邊應該就是會在延後延後這個審查但是外送平台其實它是一個目前我們大家都非常"},{"start":2708.106,"end":2735.891,"text":"仰賴而且非常倚重的一個經濟經濟的一個一個形態那包括我們這個這個大家外食的這個比例非常高所以這個平臺經濟以及這個這個外送小哥這個外送員這種臨工打臨工的這種經濟相對來說已經在改變了我們非常多的這個生活形態跟消費形態那也創造很多的這個這個工作的機會所以希望公平會能夠"},{"start":2736.831,"end":2763.206,"text":"針對未來能夠針對這個合併案能夠再更加審慎的做一些考量那因為如果這兩家平臺如果他們結合的話我想這個非常顯著應該可以改變市場結構雖然我們目前外送的平臺業者蠻多家的但是我想大家大概最常使用的就是不外乎是這兩家所以我想可能未來公民會可以針對這個部分能夠再多做一些"},{"start":2763.966,"end":2782.14,"text":"考量那最後一個呢是我也許我們公民會也期許未來公民會能夠針對我們市場上面的一些一些不當的一些競爭的一些形態那麼也可以多一些關注多一些關注因為其實所以現在如同我剛才先前提到的我們現在的這個"},{"start":2783.4,"end":2806.792,"text":"經濟環境以及我們的社會生活形態的改變所以對於市場的一些競爭的一些方式也開始慢慢的出現了一些變化那跟以往有一些顯著的不同所以希望這個就包括我剛才提到這個數位平臺那我想現在政府打詐也打得非常的用力那其實很多數位平臺包括相關的一些廣告的投放"},{"start":2807.612,"end":2827.389,"text":"那麼對於這些廣告的投放那或者是相關的這個一些的這個形態也希望未來公民會能夠針對這個部分能夠再多加的這個努力那我想我就針對這個公民會的這個委員這四位委員的這個提名發表我個人的一些看法那也希望這個未來公民會能夠"},{"start":2829.99,"end":2832.632,"text":"謝謝吳英德教授的高見下一位發言請臺灣科技大學劉華美教授"},{"start":2872.149,"end":2892.085,"text":"主席立法院的先進在座各位學者專家先進非常榮幸能夠參與立法院公平交易委員會委員人士統一權公聽會公平會在歷屆跟現任委員們的努力灌溉跟心情跟雲下成長茁壯迄今超過30年並持續與其他國家的競爭事務主管機關和"},{"start":2898.371,"end":2906.982,"text":"競爭法國際組織交流合作例如三年一度的公聽會國際研討會就有來自世界各地的主管機關代表熱心參與討論新進重要競爭法議題展望未來期待將有如美國的FTC110年的榮景"},{"start":2916.418,"end":2934.884,"text":"公聽會：不論人力結構：就是在職公務員的學歷、年紀等：主管性別都有一定的品質從以往到現在是一個願意聆聽學者專家意見的行政組織以下幾點回顧與展望供新界委員、被提名人參考人工智慧、AI的影響"},{"start":2940.322,"end":2954.764,"text":"人工智慧是一項科技軟實力目前尚未到爆發期美國Apple手機一開始也不是處於爆發期各國積極佈建人工智慧法規跟智慧財產權例如美國、俄羅斯、歐盟也包括台灣"},{"start":2955.7,"end":2966.223,"text":"在此領域巨型的跨國大企業例如會打已在不同區域受到競爭法主管機關的關注並產生相應的案例對競爭法帶來了挑戰深層式AI例如CHAT、GPT經由訓練可產出文字、圖片和影片等全新的內容與傳統AI僅處理既有資料不同在競爭法產生新的限制競爭議題"},{"start":2982.813,"end":3008.602,"text":"美國DOJ已投入資源研究《AI跟Fantast法》OECD跟歐盟對AI也有一定的研究人工智慧是未來特別是對新世代、青年世代可預見的重要趨勢對競爭法可能引起的課題例如市場地位的濫用等臺灣需要及早重視規劃近幾年公聽會是尚未有類似主題的委託研究"},{"start":3010.049,"end":3025.666,"text":"二、數位經濟的影響數位時代對數據資源的掌握就是對競爭資源的掌握臺灣缺少本土的強大的搜尋引擎在網路時代數據量的累積可能不異於其他國家的科技巨擘比擬"},{"start":3027.588,"end":3053.207,"text":"對數位經濟而在中國大陸稱數字經濟如何加以管制成為相當重要的問題國際上已有不少針對跨國科技巨擘的競爭法案例如Google、Meta和Microsoft等這些寶貴的執法實務如能藉由國際交流與合作適可提供公聽會養分來建構對數位平台的管制模式、處理原則跟執法力道"},{"start":3054.571,"end":3079.506,"text":"特別是如果能強化跟美國、歐盟等這些具有許多數位平台案例處理專業智能跟經驗的主管機關的交流合作國際上尚有的做法是會做一些數位產業的產業報告資料和追蹤這樣的做法值得公聽會參考公聽會以往也有這方面的產業研究分析成果"},{"start":3080.68,"end":3105.313,"text":"面對數位經濟和日新月異的商業模式更值得投入這方面的資源歐盟的立法常領先於各國數位市場法於去年5月2日施行從去年到今年一共指定了七大事業為首門人以及由上述首門人事業所提供的共24個核心平台服務"},{"start":3107.048,"end":3135.19,"text":"其積極規管數位平臺不遑多讓歐盟這樣針對顯著有限制競爭疑慮的大型企業特別加以監管的執法策略值得國內參考不論是人工智慧或數位經濟都可能牽涉技術面的解決能力在智慧財產權方面有設置技術審查官未來辦理這類案件可考慮增加技術專家的協助"},{"start":3137.699,"end":3153.867,"text":"三、多層次傳銷的管理疫情對傳銷的商業模式也如同對其他行業帶來了衝擊傳銷產業在國人的參與人口佔比上並不低又存在成為變質多層次傳銷的潛在疑慮多層次傳銷產業已是獨立的產業類別"},{"start":3160.45,"end":3180.961,"text":"但其主管機關並非經濟部而是公聽會多層次傳銷管理法與單獨立法今年正好施行滿10週年透過多層次傳銷管理法成立了傳保會作為輔助機構在國際上美國是傳銷的發源地例如越南等地也都可見這類商業行銷手法"},{"start":3181.661,"end":3210.062,"text":"如何繼續健全國內傳銷產業的發展創造產業產值完備法制研究成果和減少違法案例等值得期許由公聽會出版的《認識多層次傳銷管理法》已在改版當中同由公聽會出版的《認識公平交易法》在今年8月發行最新版以擴增篇幅對數位經濟的因應傳訪會近年來也開始進行委託研修以上努力值得肯定"},{"start":3213.367,"end":3238.346,"text":"本屆委員努力於編轉數位經濟與競爭政策白皮書並在今年在國際上獲得獎項肯定克正推動公平交易法修法也受理社會大眾矚目的案例例如外送平台和金融業的結合市場上前兩大事業的結合一般要進行更嚴格的審查飲食與國力相關金融業目前應還沒有禁止結合的案件"},{"start":3239.681,"end":3249.926,"text":"市場的監管跟永續創新價值的兼顧是新屆公平會無法迴避的任務謝謝大家也祝大家聖誕快樂新年快樂"},{"start":3267.571,"end":3277.793,"text":"好這樣子喔好那我們就下一位我們接著請牛約正教授謝謝謝謝牛教授"},{"start":3289.605,"end":3313.864,"text":"主席在場各位先進大家好那我是東吳大學的女兒鄭那這次很榮幸能夠有機會來針對公平交易委員會的主任委員以及副主任委員委員的這個提名名單那提供一些本人的意見那本人以下僅供這個提供一些本人的意見那供大院在審查時參考那麼首先本次提名的四位人選三位是目前的現任的主委、副主委跟委員那一位則是目前的這個服務業競爭處的處長"},{"start":3316.266,"end":3333.038,"text":"那都是目前在公聽會會內服務的相關的人員那所以呢以下本這個首先僅針對啊這個林慶堂處長那提名這個委員的這個部分先提供一些本人的這個潛見那就如同各位所知道的林慶堂處長目前是這個公聽業服務公聽會服務業競爭處的處長長期在公聽會內部服務"},{"start":3336.48,"end":3360.7,"text":"那本次提名這樣子的一個長期在公聽會內務耕耘的這樣子的一個事務官成為公聽會的委員其實一直是多年來公聽會在提名委員的時候的這個慣例那本次也依循這樣子的慣例提名這個公聽會的事務官作為委員那其實對於近年我們公務員的這個待遇一直無法有效提升人才外流然後士氣不振的這樣子的現象相信是可以帶來一些鼓勵的"},{"start":3361.32,"end":3382.968,"text":"那林處長從基層開始一直受到長官的肯定直到目前擔任處長那相信這樣子的一個經驗啊這個經歷啊對於這個相關的公聽會內部的人員的一個士氣的提振會帶來很大的幫助那所以這個可以說是一個相當值得肯定的人選那至於接下來關於這個三位現職的主任委員、副主任委員跟這個委員的部分"},{"start":3383.388,"end":3412.178,"text":"那大概主要從過去幾年的這個任內他們所進行的一些相關的工作那提供一些我自己的分析的看法供大院參考那麼首先就如同剛剛其實有提到的李美主委任內一項重要的工作那就是針對這個數位經濟競爭政策白皮書那提出了這樣子的一個非常有這個具有指引的這樣子的一個這個成果那其實當中針對了許多國外的執法趨勢進行了分析那詳述了公聽會目前在執法上面可能採取的一些觀點"},{"start":3413.058,"end":3436.705,"text":"那所以許多事業在參與這個競爭活動的過程當中都能夠去明確的預見公聽會未來的一個執法的方針那整體來說那雖然可能針對一些個別的意見在學界或者是在相關的業界大家的見解可能不太的這個相同那但是整體來說這樣子的一個全面盤點競爭法全面盤點公平交易法的工作那其實是一個高度值得肯定的工作成果"},{"start":3437.305,"end":3458.872,"text":"那麼當然過去其實大院不乏針對這個競爭政策白皮書抱持著一些這個批判的看法可能認為那對於特別是像是媒體議價的這個工作其實在競爭政策白皮書當中相對來講是比較少的那有一些這樣子的一個看法那但是整體來說這樣子的成果啦我相信從學界整體而言是給予一個肯定的評價那這個大概是我自己的一些簡單的觀點"},{"start":3461.855,"end":3475.212,"text":"公聽會這幾年相當致力於在進行一些國際的交流活動單純以今年為例在今年6月的時候就舉辦了國際的研討會邀請了許多外國的相關的學界、實務界的人士來台灣進行交流"},{"start":3475.672,"end":3504.219,"text":"那在今年的這個11月的時候也舉辦了這個ICN的這個結合的工作坊那其實也是針對這個國內外相關的一些這個食物運作的情形做了相當有意義的這樣子的一個交流的活動那其實都對於國內的學界乃至於食物界的發展其實是一個具有長遠規劃的這樣子的一個想法之下那所進行的這樣子的工作並且提升了我們臺灣的公平交易法競爭法在國際上面的能見度跟知名度那這樣子的做法我相信也是相當值得肯定的"},{"start":3504.839,"end":3527.718,"text":"最後李美主委的任內相當值得關切的一個重點就是其實花了一些時間特別是從2002年到2003年的一個執法的觀點上面開始做的一些消費者權益的這樣子的保護的工作儘管向來我們學記的認為說公平交易委員會他其實工作並不在於做消費者保護這樣子的工作其實對於這樣子的一個執法的態度多半是抱持著一些比較批判的立場"},{"start":3528.499,"end":3540.931,"text":"但是整體來說由於我國對於消費者保護的行政其實相對之下欠缺一個有效的中央機關來進行統籌的執法所以公聽會有的時候還是難以避免的必須要去承擔這樣子的執法任務公聽會在2002年針對事業隱匿重要交易資訊在美容的過程當中進行一些濫用、煩擾行銷的手法進行了裁罰"},{"start":3553.703,"end":3581.242,"text":"在2003年的年底一連串的針對一些使用交友軟體然後來吸引消費者然後基於一些戀愛的心理上面進行消費那進行了五個處分書都顯示出了這屆公聽會對於這個公平交易法的執法似乎不是單純只是把重點放在競爭法而投注了更多的心力在做一些消費者保護的這樣子的工作那這樣子的一個成果那對於國內的消費者的權益當然是能夠帶來一些有效的這樣子的幫助那某種程度上面也是值得"},{"start":3582.002,"end":3584.763,"text":"公平交易委員會所採取的競爭政策那帶來一些重要的指引跟形成"},{"start":3611.491,"end":3637.667,"text":"那麼這個地方我們從這個數位經濟競爭政策白皮書的內容當中其實可以提出一個值得大家去關注的重點那就是在於說在數位競爭政策白皮書的第163頁當中有提到說關於我們的公平交易法第19條維持轉售價格這樣子的行為的執法的方針那麼未來要更重視建議公平會去考量擁有顯著市場力的事業他才有可能透過這種維持轉售價格的行為"},{"start":3639.608,"end":3639.708,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":3660.686,"end":3679.336,"text":"那但是這樣子的一個執法的方針某種程度上反映在這個白皮書當中反映出了現任委員的意志那但是對於未來整體的我國的這個產業的秩序的形成到底是一個什麼樣子的影響例如說假設今天委員的這個組成改變了或者是一般業界到民事法院去提起民事訴訟了"},{"start":3680.296,"end":3704.706,"text":"那麽競爭政策白皮書當中所宣示的這樣子的觀點到底會如何去形成那麽我相信也是值得我們在目前針對這次的人事議案去進行審查的時候那麽大院跟公聽會這邊能夠針對這樣子的議題那有更多的詳盡的討論那我相信這個也是很多文化界、出版界的人士大家所關切的一個很重要的競爭政策上面的議題那乃至於目前公聽會也針對公聽交易法去提出了一些修正草案"},{"start":3705.106,"end":3723.295,"text":"那是不是能夠把這樣子的想法跟修正草案的內容去進行一些結合讓未來公平交易法的執法能夠有一些更明確的這樣子的一個運用的成果那我相信也是值得在這次的這個議案當中啊對於一個未來的競爭政策的這個視野這樣子去形成的過程當中可以去考量的一個重要的問題"},{"start":3724.475,"end":3751.603,"text":"最後一點關於聯合行為執法在李鎂主委任內很重要的方針就是主要是希望能透過檢舉獎金的方式去爭取擁有違法行為事證的內部人員來提出違法行為的事證相較於過去幾任公平交易委員會的主任委員普遍傾向去爭取透過搜索扣押的機制去取得違法行為的證據這樣的一個執法方針某種程度上是不太相同的"},{"start":3752.023,"end":3778.788,"text":"那到底是不是代表說在我國的這些違法惡質的聯合行為只要透過違法檢舉獎金的這個取得那麼就能夠去解決去打擊這些惡質的行為那其實或許也是值得更進一步的討論是不是立法院有可能在這樣子的一個議題之下賦予我們的公民會更多的這個執法的任務跟工具去打擊違法聯合行為那我相信也是值得這次在進行審查的時候去討論的一個重要的議題那以上大概是關於我個人針對這次人選的一些淺見那提供給大家參考"},{"start":3780.479,"end":3796.824,"text":"非常謝謝紐約鎮教授精闢的發言 謝謝下一位發言請雲林科大科技法律研究所楊志傑教授主席各位先進 大家好"},{"start":3804.715,"end":3822.325,"text":"很榮幸受邀到此公聽會以下提出一些公平會施政的大方向是我個人對公平會的期許下頁這次的四位被提名人中三位都已經要邁入第二個任期我期許委員們在第二個任期能夠積極認識回應社會需求與期待適度擴張公平會的執掌與作為下頁社會各界對數位經濟的市場競爭議題有許多期待"},{"start":3831.07,"end":3854.217,"text":"因為這樣的期待促成了公聽會於2023年12月公布《數位競爭政策白皮書》但從白皮書的內容來看公聽會打算用既有的公聽法與執法方式解決數位競爭議題不打算改變調整執法的方式或制定新的法律這跟他國競爭法主管機關相比態度保守許多下一頁"},{"start":3855.737,"end":3873.991,"text":"對數位經濟議題參考其他國家可以有兩個調整方向一、可以思考公聽會的職權要不要擴張到網路消費者保護領域二、公聽會可以思考要不要對數位市場的競爭問題調整執法方式下一頁首先第一個方向"},{"start":3874.551,"end":3894.666,"text":"各國對於競爭法與消費者保護的主管機關採取兩種方式第一種是合併管理模式由單一機構同時負責競爭法的執行和消費者保護事務例如美國、英國、韓國都採取合併管理模式第二種方式是分開管理模式"},{"start":3895.919,"end":3912.531,"text":"以及競爭法和消保法是由不同機關分別管理例如日本和台灣下頁雖然台灣和日本一樣採取分開管理模式但是台灣的消費者保護法的執法方式卻大大不如日本"},{"start":3913.231,"end":3933.685,"text":"我國消費者保護法主要採取民事責任由私人自己提告主管機關消費者保護委員會沒有積極的調查權、裁罰權另外,整部消費者保護法也欠缺不公平或欺網習軌此種一般性禁止處罰規定沒辦法處理許多新興的網路消費者議題下一頁"},{"start":3935.626,"end":3960.62,"text":"相對的公聽會有幾個條文可以稍微切入處理消費者保護議題一是公聽法第21條規範不實廣告但行政處罰的對象只能規範參與競爭的事業而非任何人二是公聽法第25條規定事業不得為其他足以影響交易秩序之期望或顯示公平之行為這個條文是學習美國FTC Act的第5條"},{"start":3961.621,"end":3975.981,"text":"在美國這個條文其實是屬於消費者保護的條文而不是規範事業競爭的條文但公聽會可能會因為足以影響交易秩序這個要件的限制不太願意動用這一個條文來處理消費者的議題下一頁"},{"start":3978.424,"end":4004.326,"text":"對於數位經濟產生的消費者保護議題若屬於合併管理模式的國家會更為積極認識先看美國美國的FTC同時監管競爭法與消費者保護法美國的FTC法第5條後段的不公平或欺網行為或守法屬於消費者保護的概括條款可用來處理網路上的新興見證廣告網站設計暗黑模式的各種網路消費者的議題下一頁"},{"start":4006.385,"end":4035.365,"text":"此外FTC也積極制定新規則來對付新的數位市場消費者保護議題例如FTC最近提出一個點擊取消規則要求網站必須讓消費者取消訂閱的方式與當初訂閱網站一樣容易而不能刁難消費者第二個規則是隱藏與虛假費用規則草案其要求網站在對消費者銷售商品服務時不能隱藏各項費用也禁止有誤導性的費用下一頁"},{"start":4036.451,"end":4057.085,"text":"南韓也是採取合併管理模式南韓公平會是競爭法和消費者保護的主管機關在消費者保護議題上南韓公平會主管電子商務等消費者保護法有權調查、命更正與處罰的權限此外南韓公平會也會對各種網路的新興消費者保護議題"},{"start":4058.025,"end":4071.252,"text":"提出新的指引或修法例如南韓於2024年2月13日修正公佈電子商務法等消費者保護法特別為網路暗黑模式設計一個新的條文因此我期許公聽會應該積極認識"},{"start":4073.093,"end":4073.213,"text":"公聽會．審查"},{"start":4094.325,"end":4116.352,"text":"會委員可主動研究修法採取合併管理模式修法擴張公民會職權其餘消費者保護領域也對數位經濟消費者保護議題提出具體的法案下一頁除了消費者保護議題之外第二個要思考的是公聽會對數位市場競爭議題是否調整監管方式在數位環境中因為網路效應"},{"start":4116.952,"end":4141.849,"text":"容易形成獨佔事業出現各種超大型的網路服務業者產生的競爭問題比實體市場來得更嚴重而對於網路事業是否違反競爭法事後判斷的方式卻很困難故歐盟於2022年制定《數位市場法》希望改變競爭法的執法方式改採事前指定大型的數位市場守門人包括大型網站和線上平台等"},{"start":4142.589,"end":4166.53,"text":"並且事前明確規定數位市場守門人應該做為和不該做的行為下頁歐盟這種對數位市場競爭監管方式的調整也影響其他國家例如英國於2024年5月剛通過《數位市場競爭與消費者法案》日本於2024年6月通過《智慧型手機應用程式競爭促進法》南韓的公平交易委員會則於2023年提出"},{"start":4168.912,"end":4186.12,"text":"平臺公正競爭促進法草案目前還在協商中下一頁比較我國數位市場的監管教構首先我們有數位發展部可是數位發展部強調發展不太想監管數位市場而公平會在數位經濟競爭政策白皮書中"},{"start":4186.72,"end":4198.531,"text":"似乎不太想提出類似歐盟數位市場法此種新法規而選擇採取既有的競爭法執法方式採取較為事後被動的個案認定方式下一頁"},{"start":4199.67,"end":4219.381,"text":"我期許我國公聽會在亞洲各國說中不要跑出日本、南韓而成為亞洲的引領者在數位市場競爭方面公聽會應該學習歐盟、英國、日本乃至南韓研究數位市場競爭專法將監管方式稍微調整提前"},{"start":4221.663,"end":4240.843,"text":"總結我對公平會的兩個方向的期許突破既有的競爭法執法領域與執法方式一是擴大職權到數位市場的消費者保護領域並提出相關的法案二是調整對數位市場競爭議題的執法方式並提出相關法案謝謝大家的聆聽"},{"start":4242.661,"end":4251.669,"text":"非常謝謝余甯科大、楊智傑教授精品的分析好 下一位歡迎請大眾聯合法律事務所王明勇所長 謝謝"},{"start":4265.251,"end":4279.042,"text":"主席各位先進大家好今天早上很榮幸能夠受邀參加這次的公聽會那以下針對這次的行政院函請各大院同意的人事議案提供兩點意見給大家參考"},{"start":4281.664,"end":4307.8,"text":"第一個,針對那個行政院函請同意的名單的部分的意見那我們可以看到這一次的這個行政院函請同意的那個名單它有個特點,就是說我們這次有四位嘛然後有兩位是法律的專業的背景兩位是經濟的專業的背景第二點,他們四位其實都有豐富的公平交易法的執法的經驗那有三位當然是委員的續任另外一位其實他在公平會任職的時間也相當的長"},{"start":4308.561,"end":4331.641,"text":"另外呢 第三點就是說兩位是原來的學者兩位是行政官員出身那我們從這個三點來講我想這一次的特點都還蠻特別的那第二點的部分我們從他們這一次提名的四位他們這幾年在公平會執法的經驗我們可以做一個績效的評析第一個部分其實剛剛諸位先進也有提到過第一點的部分這幾年其實公平會強調的是強化"},{"start":4333.542,"end":4361.417,"text":"數位經濟時代競爭秩序的執法那我們可以看到很多相關的這個針對產業經濟的部分很多針對網路產業其實有很多執法的案件第二個部分在執法的這個實際的作業上面其實是越來越重視落實公平交易的正當行政的程序那第三點的部分這一屆公聽會跟過去比較不一樣這次更重視司法對公聽會處分案的審查的意見那這一次他們"},{"start":4362.137,"end":4365.561,"text":"公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會"},{"start":4381.878,"end":4401.139,"text":"這四位提名人如果獲到同意我想是才是所應該可以使公平交易委員會的效能更加的發揮這是針對那個名單的意見那第二大點的部分針對就是說他們提名或同意以後這個期許的部分有以下幾點請各位參考"},{"start":4401.9,"end":4428.682,"text":"第一個部分就是公平交易法的這個公平交易執法的正當程序的法制化的部分我們建議是說會裡面後續可以再更加強那這個部分包括就是說備處分人他可不可以充分的陳述意見然後相關的卷證的檢閱的部分目前的這個規定的部分實際上的做法其實慢慢的符合這個要求可是在我們的法令的部分反而是沒有的"},{"start":4429.783,"end":4430.884,"text":"法定部分加以修正"},{"start":4450.031,"end":4464.193,"text":"慢慢的越來越好可是我們的法令其實是沒有法令的部分是沒有修的這是很可惜的地方我想我們應該要這個部分所以才會建議修正落實這個整個國際重視公平交易行政程序的法制化的一個潮流"},{"start":4464.795,"end":4484.775,"text":"那第二個部分 針對這個違法令和行為的查緝的部分我們應該在法制的部分要去考慮我們是不是要抓他放小這個當然是一個考量執法的成本比如說他的罰款金額如果太少或是小規模的事業你是不是一定要針對他去處分我個人這邊事實上是認為在法制上可以再做一些審酌"},{"start":4485.876,"end":4508.846,"text":"那因為我們今年非常特別我們今年會裡面有針對我們新竹城隍廟口的這個小吃的管理委員會的這個攤商的部分做一個處分但是並沒有划環只有做處分可是這個部分就是說當然沒有錯會裡面這樣的處分有它的法令的依據但是如果會裡就這樣處分我想因為也是一個問題以後菜市場菜市場同時漲價一定大家通通檢舉到會裡來"},{"start":4510.233,"end":4535.095,"text":"那會裡就會碰到一個尷尬的狀況我究竟要不要到菜市場去查緝我究竟要不要做一個處分那這個當然是沒有錯剛剛提到會裡面針對這個部分確實有他們的考量也符合或許也符合法律規定的要求但是呢我們以這樣的國家充分的資源就是說是不是說會讓人家誤以為是說哇這個中央機關都要管到我們菜市場的這個價格的行為"},{"start":4536.876,"end":4557.824,"text":"這個部分當然還是剛提到會裡面的處分有它的依據但是我們是不是應該去考量說針對這個部分要放在大型的限制競爭的行為這是個人的意見這個部分但是這個部分或許在法制上要有更多的規範或許會裡面整個依據會比較強所以這個部分提供給這個是個人的一個期許的部分"},{"start":4558.924,"end":4575.292,"text":"第三點 個人建議 會議應該要強化公平交易法執法的效能公平法有很多公平會議跟受調查對象協議的機制包括停止調查程序、行政程序和解、行政訴訟和解、調解"},{"start":4577.493,"end":4577.533,"text":"公聽會．審查"},{"start":4592.35,"end":4592.69,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":4617.258,"end":4637.508,"text":"會裡面跟收調查對象整個後續的這個協議機制這個其實是整個各國的一個整個執法作為的趨勢這個並不是是說我們單獨所以我們公平法才有這些規範但是我們希望是建議是說既然有這些規定了但是我們更應該活用這些規定所以這個部分第三點提供給各位做參考"},{"start":4638.528,"end":4664.909,"text":"第4點個人期許的部分公聽會還是要積極提出公平交易法的修正草案送大院來適應當代社會經濟的情況當然剛剛幾位先進都有提到這幾年來公聽會很積極地來調整相關的法令但是我們可以看得到法令的部分修了很多"},{"start":4665.569,"end":4692.566,"text":"那另外一個部分就算是在法律本身相對性的或許是因為爭議的問題比較多所以反而是提出來的法律的修正案反而比較少那變成是說在這個地方是不是說足以因應當代社會經濟的情況的調整我想這個部分恐怕要更積極的去討論、去思考來提出這樣的修正草案那最後我想"},{"start":4693.727,"end":4721.113,"text":"個人的這些期許其實跟今天在場其他先進有一點不一樣的地方其他先進大概或許比較強調我們現在在數位經濟AI的這個公民會在執法涉及到數位經濟涉及到AI我們要怎麼調整作為可是個人因為是法官出身所以我個人還是要回到原點我們整個執法的行政程序還是要去強化我們整個執法的行政程序其實剛提到我們在法律的法令的部分"},{"start":4722.093,"end":4739.344,"text":"實際的作為或許並沒有落差那麼多但是在我們整個法律的規範其實已經落後了其他國家很多所以個人期許說我們新一屆的公民交易委員會能夠針對這個執法程序的部分更加落實去調整以上意見供各位參考 謝謝"},{"start":4741.069,"end":4754.024,"text":"我們謝謝大眾聯合法律事務所王所長緊密的發言下一位請盧信昌教授臺大國際研究所那之後我們再請楊瓊英委員來發言謝謝"},{"start":4763.049,"end":4790.749,"text":"各位先進各位同好大家早我想今天這個機遇是非常難得一方面作為一個產業經濟研究者對於公平教育法跟市場競爭這樣的議題是長期在關注那個人因為這過去的30年間也在校際會當志工所以參與了不少遊走在消費保護公平教育法跟整個市場競爭的這樣的一個"},{"start":4795.887,"end":4799.237,"text":"五個方向跟三個案例來跟各位切磋"},{"start":4800.54,"end":4825.228,"text":"那第一個這個大家都很清楚公平法對於這個欺網跟不實廣告是有這樣的一個執法依據那我在參與處理這個聯動債各位都記得這個自然人聯動債年代包括我們的劉兆璇院長都賠掉了大概1800萬台幣的這個退休金那時候我們事實上公平交易委員會就受理這個"},{"start":4826.378,"end":4849.693,"text":"金管會的委託以這個不實廣告的方式來啟動調查但是金管會在維持這樣的一個金融商品的自主開發跟讓國內業者有這個國際聯動的這個機會還是試圖去踩它的線我想這個案例告訴我們一件事就是說公平交易委員會在公平法的這個適用上頭"},{"start":4851.375,"end":4870.234,"text":"雖然沒有主動去對主管機關的議案做表述的空間但是一旦那個問題大到一個程度需要有一個斷然的止血尤其當這個企業的某些行規或者他們這種常態作為雖然看起來沒有實質違法"},{"start":4872.136,"end":4894.816,"text":"但是顯然是顯示公平跟有這樣的期望事實的存在我想在連動在這件事情上頭當初我的參與可以看到貴會的用心了那第二個比較麻煩的是這個也就是大家都知道我們從陳水扁的年代就開始對大陸的鞋襪、毛巾都刻煩請銷稅"},{"start":4896.843,"end":4914.943,"text":"那身為一個經濟學者我個人對於這樣的一個反傾銷稅的使用沒有落日期限沒有具體的政策目標深深感到痛苦因為各位知道一雙鞋課80%運動鞋那如果是淑女鞋、紳士鞋是課百分之123"},{"start":4917.13,"end":4943.205,"text":"那臺灣消費者長期忍受我們從陳水扁開始為了切斷兩岸的某種經濟過熱因而以還請消費方式讓我們的消費者是買一雙鞋是付兩雙的價錢所以我的學生到國外去交換之後發現了一件事情就是在歐洲任何的百貨超商、百貨公司買到的新鞋、新款鞋價錢跟在臺北的這個Outlet一樣貴"},{"start":4944.426,"end":4971.787,"text":"那原因很簡單因為我們要繳80%的反省銷稅那我多年來持續的寫文章也要求跟這些國貿局的這些高層對話終於到去年他們也真的斷然做了思考然後在去年年底取消了反省銷稅可是請問各位反省銷稅80%拿掉以後你到Outlet去買運動鞋有變便宜嗎沒有主事機關在哪裡"},{"start":4975.117,"end":4995.311,"text":"這是一個跨品牌的行為它當然是聯合行為這些跨品牌的Outlet各自在反請消稅取消之後還是不做價格競爭那台灣的消費者買的Outlet已經是屬於那種劣等品、退貨品"},{"start":4996.257,"end":5008.343,"text":"或者是品管不夠高的款項所以各位當然知道你買的這個OLEO鞋其實是不耐穿很多人都摔倒包括我們劉翁教授劉翁先生他這樣貴為84歲的高齡穿了一雙3000塊的鞋都摔倒"},{"start":5013.749,"end":5038.766,"text":"因為原因很簡單那個橡膠成分是不合格的我們繼續認定這樣的貨品打著反傾銷稅打著保護台灣企業的方式讓消費者喪失選擇的自由讓業者輕易的透過政策可以達成實質的價格勾結沒有人有作為好當然第三個案例打破不是那麼容易"},{"start":5040.223,"end":5067.902,"text":"從美國對於這些長春藤學校以這樣的聯合抵制特殊優秀同學的這種算投機啊就多方申請、多方拿獎學金但是最後是發球權在學生身上那當年這個19...劉根時代因為這些學校會開始做某種有意無意的入學管道的勾結反正你已經入企我就不要它"},{"start":5069.329,"end":5096.883,"text":"那這樣的一個從美國的FTC開始介入到開始跟教育界達成協議大概就花了5年了那達成5年之後的這個協議其實到最近才終於因為一方面美國的年輕人開始流行不念大學因為他們認為平均學費4萬塊美金4年下來20萬美金的這種開銷一半以上的家庭負擔不起那"},{"start":5099.557,"end":5120.192,"text":"所以因為需求減少加上大陸的留學生不能到美國去這樣的一個實質有益的作為所以美國的高等教育機構現在居然是非常競爭我在美國的一些朋友的小孩手上都可以拿到六七家長春屯學校入學許可這在以前是不可能的也就是說一個概念"},{"start":5124.448,"end":5142.581,"text":"機關的態度從它開始啟動到變成一個大家接受的公約但是因為它又涉及到違反這些學校的利益因為他們的過度競爭會造成他們在學費的收取在學生的組合在某些獎學金的給予上頭上司主動權"},{"start":5144.09,"end":5170.84,"text":"那終於要到整個美國社會因為高學費因為整個抵制特定國家的留學生因為整個不是升多升少現在是周多升少因而讓大學終於開始競爭所以當然我們對公聽會期許也希望就是說公聽會必須要在政策的延續性在某些政策態度的一致性在某些"},{"start":5172.2,"end":5192.701,"text":"因時的這種忌諱去試著抓取主動權跟重新跟社會做溝通的這個努力必須要繼續因此我對公平交易委員會有以下期許一方面當然我們的主委是有長期在制裁權方面的這個理解"},{"start":5193.522,"end":5216.07,"text":"那制裁權剛好是整個作為阻止競爭作為一個這種所謂這種訴訟蟑螂其實非常常有的事情所以我相信他的理解在整個這個不競爭或者阻止競爭的這作為上有相當的深入那我們這個林慶堂委員一直在標榜他在傳銷方面的這個努力跟成就"},{"start":5217.575,"end":5230.971,"text":"的確銷售渠道跟轉換競爭形式也是一個經濟過程裡頭常有的狀態他們各自的這些作為都有一定的經驗基礎在"},{"start":5233.342,"end":5255.899,"text":"那另外兩位學者出身的觀點雖然一個是在經濟端試著去標榜他對於企業的友善那另外一個是在法制端長期有作為但是回到我剛剛講的那幾個案例跟我們希望對公平交易委員會能夠秉持創會的初衷能夠持續在帶動台灣的對外開放"},{"start":5257.961,"end":5283.357,"text":"在帶動通路之間的競爭跟在實質理解到台灣作為一個這個國際的參與者我們真的必須要在概念、在行動、在政策作為上領先群輪因為一個民主的台灣最大的成就跟動力來源就是來自於人民對於機關的信任跟支持以上謝謝"},{"start":5285.202,"end":5290.759,"text":"好 非常感謝盧教授的發言下一位發言請楊秋英委員發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":5297.564,"end":5324.638,"text":"非常感謝我們主席排定今天的公聽會尤其要特別感謝所有的專家學者因為公平會在我們國家來講其實食衣住行、娛樂完全離敗不了我們的公平會所以它是第三中立的單位可以說是非常重要的一個中立部門所以本席提出本席的論點以提供各位先進大家來參酌"},{"start":5325.959,"end":5344.946,"text":"公聽會是作為維護市場交易保障公平競爭的關鍵機構它的組成與運作它直接的影響到整個產業的發展跟消費者的權益所以我們根據行政院10月30號的提名現任的公聽會裡頭的李美主委"},{"start":5346.807,"end":5369.755,"text":"以及副主委陳志良先生、陳志民先生那麼委員洪財隆也都是要續任在提名的名單裡頭服務業競爭處的處長林慶堂先生也被提名為新任的委員這四名被提名的人的專業我們必須要好好的來討論首先"},{"start":5372.336,"end":5393.685,"text":"公聽會總共有7個委員其中包括了李美主委、副主委、陳志民先生等4位委員的任期都在明年的1月31日到期李美主委在今年的9月份的時候她曾經表示如果人事案卡關造成剩下委員的人數"},{"start":5395.217,"end":5419.106,"text":"少 審查留會那需要在時間內裁決的結合案就可以直接來過關所以很多人高度的質疑是不是以人事案來卡關讓有很多的案子必須可以可以好好的來討論的卻真正的被卡關那但是在今年本期舉例今年的5月份外送平台就表示要合併"},{"start":5420.006,"end":5444.943,"text":"那本席也不只一次在立法院經濟委員會執行公聽會必須要以公共利益為重而公聽會拖到了11月份才要業者來補齊資料那麼在最近才有宣布由原先的12月19號要公布準博的結果那麼延長審查到最晚可以到明年的3月21號再公布"},{"start":5447.784,"end":5469.61,"text":"可以顯現公聽會不僅在做事沒有達到社會大眾所需要的效率性效能還想用外送平台合併案卡官位我認為如果是真如如此是非常不妥我們再以機關橫向的聯繫來看外送平台合併案還涉及到勞動部"},{"start":5471.19,"end":5491.838,"text":"還涉及到交通部等相關單位必須要好好的來討論跟配合交通部在10月11日預告修法明訂機車外送平台的一個費率公司因為社會大眾尤其消費者以及店家大家都覺得非常的不安"},{"start":5493.138,"end":5520.309,"text":"這個標準到底是要如何世界各國有很多有訂定訂定這個平台費率的一個基準數那勞動部呢在10月16號表示不支持外送平台的結合案這是勞動部在10月16號就已經非常明確的表示但是併購案的權責機關單位也就是我們的公平會到至今"},{"start":5521.828,"end":5547.121,"text":"還裝聾作啞還認為12月9號的時候呢用重新界定市場以及估算市佔率來掩蓋這幾個月的沒有做事情那麼漠視了14萬將近15萬的外送員以及10多萬的店家以及全台消費者的一個權益所以本席要在這邊說"},{"start":5548.542,"end":5566.359,"text":"也就是說提名的委員以及現任的委員公聽會應該要以專業以民為本的立場確保公聽會的維護市場的秩序這是非常重要讓公聽會能夠真正的替臺灣的經濟發展跟公聽競爭再創更穩健"},{"start":5571.104,"end":5571.204,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5592.839,"end":5607.287,"text":"所以我們也非常的希望能夠聆聽各位專家、學者大家寶貴的意見能夠讓公聽會能夠真正成為守護臺灣人民的產業發展的一個保護謝謝好 謝謝楊勳委員發言 下一位發言請臺灣經濟研究院林欣無副院長"},{"start":5627.216,"end":5650.327,"text":"主席還有在座各位委員跟學者專家大家好那我是臺金院林新吳那這個下一頁怎麼弄好那我大概分成四個部分來談今天委員的這個續任跟這個新聘案那首先我先談一下自己個人的經歷下一頁我在臺金院帶的團隊都在處理創新跟創業的議題"},{"start":5653.582,"end":5675.228,"text":"長期都在看臺灣的產業結構的變化那我曾經擔任過第六屆的行政院公平交易委員會的委員那這幾年呢我一直都在協助一些國內外大企業處理一些競爭法的議題那當然我也一直在關協助企業臺灣的企業處理他的法尊的議題所以我一直都在看臺灣跟國際上各種競爭法的演變那"},{"start":5680.953,"end":5709.605,"text":"公聽會其實就像剛剛委員所提的我覺得這個概念非常非常重要它其實是在處理的議題不是只有執行公平交易法它其實它的任務是在確保臺灣的市場的自由與公平競爭要促進經濟的安定跟繁榮所以在處理這個議題上面我們不能夠只看待公平交易法當然公平交易法的執法跟修法是一個很重要的事情"},{"start":5710.868,"end":5729.115,"text":"那現在從臺灣的角度來看待我們臺灣在整個臺灣的市場跟產業它的演變上面有哪一些很重要的挑戰第一個事情當然是我們現在很清楚的是數位然後AI今天下午現在應該是全國科技會議在談"},{"start":5730.171,"end":5756.14,"text":"重點在談AI怎麼去協助台灣持續發展當然另外一個議題在永續的這個議題但是這個地方有兩件事情一件事情是我們怎麼在這樣的一個新的局面底下促進台灣市場的公平競爭但是有另外一個議題是在於台灣有這麼多的大型業者特別是半導體或是伺服器的業者我們在國際上有很高的市場占有率"},{"start":5756.752,"end":5779.383,"text":"那這些業者他其實會面臨國際競爭法的一個挑戰所以這個時候其實這些業者怎麼合規是一個很重要的議題否則我們台灣可能會因為這樣就像當年的面板一樣受到很大的威脅這是一個第二個事情我想各位可以看一下這個公民會的年報各位可以發現到這幾年來台灣民眾關切"},{"start":5784.475,"end":5791.838,"text":"臺灣市場競爭狀況的民眾越來越多這是檢舉案件數我在100年從公聽會離開到現在112年數據上看來這個檢舉案增加50%到60%也就是說我們臺灣民眾對這個事情已經越來越認真那這個時候出現了另外一個問題就是說到底是哪一些業者被檢舉的業者"},{"start":5813.939,"end":5840.973,"text":"那如果各位仔細去看它的比重主要都在跟民生相關的議題也就是零售批發業100年的時候是27%到112年的時候達到49%所以這個事情會變成說不是只有臺灣的大企業需要重視競爭法臺灣的民眾也很關切他日常生活當中是不是得到他的相關的市場是不是面對公平競爭下一頁"},{"start":5843.24,"end":5850.999,"text":"那另外一個事情是如果各位再看一下公聽會的年報你會發現到他們的職員數是在下降的"},{"start":5852.349,"end":5879.59,"text":"那在這種情況底下當然我知道立法院有協助提高公平會的預算但是這個預算呢可能還是相當有限重點還是在於怎麼協助公平會這個資金上面或者是資源上面可以協助他們提高他們執法的效率也就是說我們大家都希望他嚴格的執法可是從另外一個角度來看假如他的專業能力或者是他的數位技能沒有辦法提升的時候其實這個時候"},{"start":5881.021,"end":5908.62,"text":"我們只是在強加於公平會的任務跟責任而已那這個時候我們就回來看國際上是怎麼處理的我剛有提到其實我們一直在看國際上怎麼處理數位跟AI在競爭法議題上的處理他們其實非常強調怎麼導入數位跟數據分析的工具然後這些工具其實是在協助這些執法機關在事前的政策做風險的評估"},{"start":5910.55,"end":5937.346,"text":"協助他做輔助的調查但是這些事情基本上需要人也需要經費所以這個事情我覺得這是我們必須要重視的一個挑戰最後一個是我們在談現在談那個台灣均衡發展均衡台灣的發展那這裡有一個很重要議題其實剛剛大家在談我剛剛有提到我們其實公聽會他的主事法裡面在談的事情是在促進台灣的自由跟公平的競爭"},{"start":5938.666,"end":5963.863,"text":"但是我們有一個議題一直都沒有談這個已經我猜大概20年沒有再談了就是我們怎麼談整體跟各個部門的競爭態勢那這個事情呢我覺得蠻好的一個事情是公平會這幾年因為國際的交流所以他們跟OECD有一些交換意見那我這裡提了一張圖我想在座應該有很多經濟學家應該可以理解這個議題"},{"start":5966.228,"end":5986.741,"text":"OECD它有一個指標叫PMR那PMR越高表示這個國家的管制制度越來越差但是呢管制制度越差表示它的這從這個圖它是負相關嘛所以它的多因素生產力就會偏低所以這個時候其實當我們現在在跟OECD在交換"},{"start":5987.762,"end":5988.222,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6010.68,"end":6036.879,"text":"所以這個事情或許我們應該從公平交易委員會的組織法的角度重新來想這件事情應該對這個事情有一點重視提供他機會給予資源讓我們好好的檢視一下臺灣的管制的狀況然後協助臺灣有另一波的這個新的發展讓各個部門更為競爭可以協助我們臺灣這個生產力越高好下一頁那"},{"start":6038.291,"end":6053.031,"text":"我對於這四位委員是表示同意的態度那一個很重要的原因並不只是單純的個別的因素當然個別的專業是大家可以認同的但是他其實在過去幾年裡面"},{"start":6053.683,"end":6073.682,"text":"根據我的觀察他們已經在很多地方朝著剛剛談的這幾個面向分別去佈局那因為剛剛幾位專家學者都有提到很細的一些議題我就不再多做說明但是我這裡必須要提的一個很重要的議題是在於我發現到我觀察到他們這幾年來處理的案件呢"},{"start":6074.352,"end":6088.549,"text":"其實在過去可能比較偏重在一些比較不是那麼嚴重的違法行為這幾年反而是在聯合行為上面特別是去年有非常多的聯合行為的處理"},{"start":6090.256,"end":6115.75,"text":"以我的經驗聯合行為是一個非常難處理的議題那他們願意勇於認識發揮他們的專業來處理這個議題這是非常不容易的最後呢就提出我的期許大概四件事情因應剛剛四個方向我想我們必須要針對數位跟AI還有勇氣的趨勢好好的處理我們可以參考G7的一些作為我們好好的來調整台灣的作法"},{"start":6116.482,"end":6142.355,"text":"那對於國際數位的大趨勢跟資源的減少怎麼數位賦能我們公聽會的同仁怎麼樣導入工具我想這是一個非常重要的事情我們不能夠只是要求他們嚴格執法公正執法我們必須要給予足夠的資源跟能力來協助他們另外一個事情是在於我們怎麼樣子兼顧到大範圍民眾的需要特別是我們現在發現到"},{"start":6144.026,"end":6149.65,"text":"零售批發業者比重增加而且我們公聽會還負有一個責任就是防止認為超重物價的這個議題"},{"start":6151.564,"end":6175.061,"text":"我們怎麼樣能夠透過數位工具來協助公聽會提高他們在處理這些議題上面的工具然後能夠減緩這些議題讓民眾們可以有更好的公聽交易跟競爭的環境我想這是我們應該協助這些委員來處理這些議題最後一個是整個管制的調整"},{"start":6176.082,"end":6197.894,"text":"我想這是對台灣再往前再往上一升升級的一個非常重要的一個議題那當然這裡可能會有一些狀況是說我們跟OECD一個溝通上調查的結果如何那這個事情應該還蠻值得我們來關注而且期待希望我們把這樣的一個競爭評估跟法規條式的議題能夠帶進到台灣的這個競爭環境裡面來以上提供大家參考 謝謝"},{"start":6205.52,"end":6217.312,"text":"臺積電臺積電臺積電臺積電臺積電臺"},{"start":6228.66,"end":6252.475,"text":"很高興第二次來到這個專家的會議裡頭提供給大家來看我們公聽會的一個續任委員以及新任委員他們的這個才華在哪邊那我們先看一下或者是審視一下其實整個世界他到了"},{"start":6254.556,"end":6272.541,"text":"這個VUCA的時代那其實應該從後面看回來就是在整個態勢上面非常的模糊模糊性非常高任何事情的發展他是很模糊的再來就是說"},{"start":6273.271,"end":6289.571,"text":"很複雜一件事情是很複雜的以公民會來看的話從供需這樣的一個簡單的市場裡頭其實它複雜度非常高也就是說在數位服務經濟時代"},{"start":6291.433,"end":6305.218,"text":"這件事情提高非常多也非常不確定性另外也就是說它的變異是很快的如果說我們從這個架構去看我們公聽會這幾年"},{"start":6308.106,"end":6336.805,"text":"那因為有續任的這個主委、副主委還有這個洪委員還有新任的這個林委員其實新任的林委員呢他是在服務處已經擔任滿長的時間這個經驗這個經驗對於我們要走上這個服務經濟時代非常非常重要那我們如果看這幾年其實"},{"start":6338.447,"end":6348.58,"text":"過去傳統的公聽會比較是從供給面去看廠商有沒有勾結有沒有合謀有沒有壟斷其實這種市場失靈的狀態"},{"start":6355.028,"end":6370.22,"text":"大致大致傳統的公聽會處理的就蠻上軌道的但是現在的廠商因為實體還有這個數位時代數位網路暗黑是這個這個"},{"start":6371.881,"end":6398.268,"text":"商品非常非常多所以這幾年在續任委員還有服務處的處長我們好多次的接觸其實他們對需求面就是說廠商如何到了需求面導引消費者做出不利自己的行為這一塊呢"},{"start":6400.308,"end":6412.49,"text":"公聽會這幾年花了非常多的力氣在裡頭那就是這個暗黑模式的應用所以說在剛剛講的模糊"},{"start":6415.237,"end":6437.449,"text":"複雜以及不確定另外快速的時代裡頭我們的公聽會這一次提名的我覺得是非常非常適任的也就是說從戰略或者是這個趨勢優勢上面我覺得這四位的委員都有其長處團隊力量"},{"start":6439.989,"end":6461.609,"text":"是非常強的要應付那樣的一個世界這樣的團隊再加上還有到幾年後才會到任的整個組織力是非常非常強的因此我覺得從幾個角度來看一看提供給將來審查委員做參考"},{"start":6466.311,"end":6490.817,"text":"第一個在執法上過去幾年其實在主任委員、副主任委員對不對還有這個洪委員、林處長的積極執法上面我覺得非常有成效也是前面幾位專家學者都提到了另外非常重要就是政策創新這件事情"},{"start":6491.857,"end":6511.029,"text":"在前一任的組織裡其實對於政策創新尤其是數位經濟白皮書的制定完全跟上歐洲的腳步其實這個全球化"},{"start":6513.19,"end":6526.285,"text":"競爭法的這個大家一起協同大家有一致的看法其實非常非常重要的所以說第二點就是政策創新再來就是有關這個技術的應用"},{"start":6528.167,"end":6545.992,"text":"就是說過去傳統的公聽會處理的議題大致是市場結構的模型大致就可以了可是這幾年屬於這種體驗的啦數位經濟時代的啦其實如果說沒有在技術應用上面"},{"start":6546.852,"end":6562.103,"text":"尤其是大數據的應用這幾年公平會內部組織也產生新的大數據應用當然這個跟主委、副主委還有委員們同心協力對於大數據的應用這一塊"},{"start":6565.706,"end":6586.138,"text":"我覺得速度上都蠻上軌道的另外就是國際合作因為超級大廠就在那邊了那像這個谷歌、FB、Meta其實不是單一的國家內部的議題經常是一個全球性的大廠"},{"start":6587.219,"end":6601.291,"text":"那我們對於他們的作為可能是供給面的可能是需求面的可能是有關消費者人性上的失控失靈"},{"start":6602.832,"end":6627.619,"text":"會被誘導出來那公聽會到底要用怎樣的角度切進來呢有時候就單一國家的公聽會的看法不足以撼動整個趨勢可是有歐盟的力量、美國力量等等的看法其實都有助於反壟斷把人心導正、把廠商透明度加高所以這個國際合作"},{"start":6629.199,"end":6654.397,"text":"是非常重要的那這幾年其實公平委員也經常邀國外的學者專家來臺灣演說也參與了去國外去這個交流我覺得這個是非常非常重要的那再來就是說有關教育推廣這一塊更是重要了其實公平會目前的"},{"start":6655.529,"end":6678.296,"text":"知識密集度是高的是高的那如何如何透過教育訓練跟跟我們的民眾做接觸這件事情是非常重要的所以我建議就是說未來新的新的主委上來之後應該加強這部分好就是增強社會的認知"},{"start":6679.036,"end":6697.948,"text":"另外在部會裡頭我感覺就是說公聽會在行為經濟學上的應用是非常非常深入的那如果我們看看美國、歐盟他們在行為經濟學上的助推的這個模式上的探討、實作"},{"start":6700.58,"end":6721.245,"text":"以及教育宣導是非常多的那我特別提就是說洪委員在這一塊大概是國內裡頭最注意的謝謝非常謝謝師英大學關乃光教授的發言下一位請武漢法律事務所黃國忠律師謝謝黃律師"},{"start":6730.196,"end":6753.666,"text":"親愛的邱肇杰委員、各位貴賓、各位好朋友剛剛聶建忠教授說早上兩點鐘才從東京回來我以前去康橋哈佛吳東生委員家玩那個大富翁發現那個有錢人玩大富翁跟我們一般國民不一樣土地可以拿來抵押借錢"},{"start":6754.942,"end":6771.726,"text":"遊戲中還可以跟其他的競爭者借錢來蓋房子以便以後收取過路費跟保護費其實公聽會可以考慮參考第二張圖形反壟斷的這種遊戲加深國民對於競爭法的認識"},{"start":6778.495,"end":6795.951,"text":"所以公聽會的組成其實管制經濟學跟國營企業管理、國企管理學比較重要我甚至主張說臺電、中油、臺鐵的定價或定價的公司要遵循公聽會的意見"},{"start":6798.323,"end":6822.542,"text":"再來就是讀買的圖形只有在中級的經濟學跟高級的經濟學有可以來檢視說球員是不是受到球團的剝削外送員是不是受到平台的剝削甚至可以檢視臺電是不是圖利綠電再來就是一般教科書可以看到的"},{"start":6824.093,"end":6844.085,"text":"獨賣經濟學的圖形飛機上的每個座位其實都是差別取價而來我是因為在報紙上看到說士林地檢署把扣邀的那個黃牛票拿去平台重新開拍賣我有個問題"},{"start":6845.146,"end":6873.143,"text":"就是千萬富翁、億萬富翁、十億萬富翁來買那種周杰倫的黃牛票是不是反映了他的特權的價值、時間的價值、排隊的價值這些得到的錢有沒有照憲法的規定回到教育科學藝術工作者的身上再來就是那個無謂的損失其實在英文的"},{"start":6874.909,"end":6898.326,"text":"的字義上面是指沉重的人或者是沉重的東西我們舉重婚、蒼蠅籍、羽毛籍、重量籍等等其實dead weight是指沉重的東西剛剛有很多先進講到歐盟的指令今天我剛剛溜出去小支部看到去吃飯"},{"start":6899.458,"end":6926.913,"text":"看到電視上的標題是立法院在打架其實選罷法跟採購法都是競爭法財政部作為政府採購的主管機關只是還沒有施行我甚至建議說公聽會也輪流作為採購法的主管機關在行政程序法"},{"start":6927.682,"end":6955.069,"text":"有規定說海洋廣場的競爭方式要給競爭者表示意見的機會資格跟那個價格都要先給競爭者表示競爭的機會那我還在士林執行署的研究報告裡面說事件"},{"start":6958.096,"end":6979.81,"text":"說日本的國稅徵收法採取維克利拍賣的方式就是第一高價的人只要付第二高價的價格我們知道說荷蘭的鮮花拍賣是降價拍賣英國的古董拍賣是升價拍賣維克利拍賣得到諾貝爾經濟學獎"},{"start":6983.035,"end":7011.847,"text":"那所第一高價的人付第二高價的錢這樣就不會聯絡和壟斷就不會互相勾結結果我看那個研究報告好像是誤解了他的內容應該是還沒有採取這個制度再來就是說公聽會也主管不正競爭我主張說讓地方政府也有"},{"start":7012.985,"end":7036.835,"text":"不正競爭的主管機關的權限不但如此公聽會還可以設東北中南市區的分會天地會各地都有設有分會公聽會如果設立分會我相信在不正競爭的方面更有保護消費者的功能"},{"start":7039.464,"end":7062.782,"text":"然後呢我有一張投影片就是寫說競爭法打不過大聯盟意思就是說球員打不過財團這樣子今天的華爾街日報的頭版就說有錢的人向川普屈膝祖克伯跟貝索斯"},{"start":7066.08,"end":7074.033,"text":"對特朗普的就職基金會各捐了10億美元他們以前對就任總統從來沒有這樣捐過"},{"start":7078.923,"end":7106.536,"text":"再來我有一張投影片是在講西洋棋我們的洪財隆委員很主張很喜歡玩西洋棋我要說明的一點就是西洋棋沒有拐馬角那個白馬可以跳出來變成維也納的開局中國象棋跟台灣象棋有拐馬角其實是在有些事情上是不對的"},{"start":7108.063,"end":7127.228,"text":"剛剛楊瓊英委員有提到人數卡關的問題我需要報告就是說這些申請釋憲的人都沒有講到人數卡關的問題大法官寫出來的意見是指那個叫做附帶意見沒有拘束令"},{"start":7129.332,"end":7150.792,"text":"那大家都提到說提名人有沒有夠格或不夠格的問題其實新竹的黃提元清華的黃提元教授有教我續位經濟學他曾經選過新竹市長我要講的就是說大師兄提名四隻黑貓"},{"start":7153.462,"end":7175.876,"text":"南白黨團提名4隻白貓黑貓抓3579隻白老鼠白貓抓2468隻黑老鼠那對不起黑貓又有兩隻讓位給白貓我覺得這種檢視的方式比較公平美國的"},{"start":7181.838,"end":7208.686,"text":"傳托拉司法學者博克曾經被提名為大法官他因為以前免職特別檢察官尼克森要求把特別檢察官免職法務部部長辭職副部長也辭職那博克他覺得法務部這一家店還要繼續開下去"},{"start":7212.335,"end":7238.488,"text":"就把特別檢察官免職再給我兩分鐘可以嗎?好謝謝那後來呢他的提名沒有被參議院通過BORK這個字甚至成為說讓人家阻止人家受到公職提名的英文字還寫在劍橋的字典裡面"},{"start":7240.831,"end":7266.621,"text":"好那剛剛楊瓊英委員有提到這種優步跟熊貓的問題我跟各位貴賓報告說印尼的GOGIC就是外送平台的大老闆去當那個當上了印尼的教育部部長我想那個換訓力委員換雲召集委員一定非常的羨慕我還有一張"},{"start":7270.899,"end":7285.053,"text":"還有一張投影片是在講回答的緩解壟斷調查我要提出來的就是說我們看到這種新聞的時候是同仇敵愾但是公聽會不要自私立場我們是"},{"start":7286.875,"end":7312.047,"text":"競爭法的主管機關所以守好自己的本分就可以了剛剛有幾位先進也提到說數位經濟的問題在我看來跟我國的經濟規模有點關係所以前高鴻安委員講說跟澳洲、日本、韓國打群架就是幾個國家聯合起來的經濟規模讓那個平台能夠接受"},{"start":7313.147,"end":7336.523,"text":"最後我們有一位被提名的委員是寫股價的論文還有我要講說今天那個德國的信任投票就是說你是不是還繼續愛我如果不繼續愛我的話我要解散國會那在台灣不信任投票反而是一種自殺的方式謝謝各位"},{"start":7339.246,"end":7350.635,"text":"謝謝黃國忠我們前委員也是我們現在武漢法律署的律師謝謝您的發言下一位請淡江大學財務金融系聶建宗聶教授"},{"start":7358.004,"end":7372.613,"text":"主席在場的各位先進嘉賓大家好我是丹江大學財經系聶建忠那麼剛才黃國忠稍微敘述了我是昨天兩點回來不是我昨天早上回來但是半夜兩點開了email知道今天的主題"},{"start":7374.074,"end":7374.254,"text":"公聽會．審視案"},{"start":7393.155,"end":7407.57,"text":"那當中裡面呢還更強調的是裡面非常多經濟學的理論啊從這種反托拉斯還有各種經濟學的消費者剩餘等等的東西很淋漓盡致但他是個法律人但我從經濟學的角度來再加強我一切想法"},{"start":7408.271,"end":7436.247,"text":"那麼在我們所學的經濟學裡面呢這個最基礎的東西我們有micro和macro各體經濟學強調兩件大事而已那我現在要強調的就是公平會議未來可能要把關這兩件大事當然第一件不可置疑叫做fairness就是公平你看川普在2018年3月20號一上來就說要fairness、fairness、fairness說中國跟他所做的東西不公平講了三次所以他要negotiate他要reciprocal就是要互惠"},{"start":7437.267,"end":7453.319,"text":"公平是重要不可言喻我在教企業社會責任裡面強調的就是不管主顧關係或者對待所有員工就是要公平對待太重要了再來我要講的就是但是剛剛有講到這個市場中你有時候會產生不公平像剛剛黃立民有講到"},{"start":7454.099,"end":7454.52,"text":"完全競爭市場與不完全競爭競爭市場"},{"start":7471.019,"end":7488.373,"text":"那這個呢是我最後要講到委員呢必須要有什麼樣的一些know-how我覺得才有辦法做好公平這件事情因為我們要普民要普惠好所以呢我就這樣當然我們時間的關係我要盡量快當然我也稍微看了一下剛剛在這個上面齁坐在這邊滑了手機"},{"start":7489.514,"end":7518.366,"text":"我看了一下公聽會的執掌當然我們知道它是80年成立就是1991年2月12公交法這個立了以後然後隔年成立1月13號這都剛好我在手機上看的然後重點是執掌我大概讓上看出來它有五個重點第一個就是法規的禮定第二個就是法律就是公交法的審議第三個呢就是對很多經濟活動或事業的活動的一些調查禁止調查第四個呢就是如果發現違法如何做最公平的處分"},{"start":7518.826,"end":7538.583,"text":"第五個呢當然還有一個叫做宣傳你要有熱誠去宣導我們的公交法其他我就不說好那這很重要那因此呢我要浪上講一下因此我覺得做一個公平會委員最少要把持三三也就三成三九個條件第一個條件的三呢我覺得非常重要叫心才德啊他第一要有熱誠"},{"start":7539.404,"end":7556.132,"text":"當我們不管是誰name這些人第一個他的熱忱要絕對足夠第二個呢他必須要有足夠的專業也就是才啦才那第三個呢他必須要公正就是道德所以新才德是為官為事甚至做任何事情的最基礎的三所以我覺得"},{"start":7556.992,"end":7571.865,"text":"這三樣東西必須要把關當然最後呢我再分析一下我剛剛所認知的這個所謂的這個三流三序一新的這個人我的看法再來第二個三呢我覺得他很重要第一個一定要入世因為我看了一下他的"},{"start":7572.185,"end":7572.425,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":7598.766,"end":7598.926,"text":"移民移民"},{"start":7620.456,"end":7644.614,"text":"因為我剛也去看了一下這個整個公聽會裡面的執掌他有193個人員有8個約聘總共201個那這201個裡面當然我們看到了他比較有趣的我看了他一下分佈圖裡面有經濟商學的45%然後法律被減19%然後法律跟經濟叫財經財經法的有4%那最後有MIS就是資金管理有3%"},{"start":7645.615,"end":7665.533,"text":"當然還有一些叫阿惹叫跟教育啊跟工程有關的29%那這個組成我覺得非常的棒為什麼呢裡面最重的就是所謂的第一個叫Business這個Economist叫經濟商學因為這是一個經濟商學活動再來就結合了所謂的法律他不要太多19%我覺得剛剛好這個我非常的欣賞這第一部分就他的人員結構"},{"start":7666.454,"end":7682.265,"text":"當然我的教育部分我也看了一下那博士不需要太多2%嘛但是Master說實很容易就一半以上51%當然這個我這個東西不可置疑我覺得他是一個還不錯的組織那麼再來呢他的裡面呢當然我就這個時間關我就講快第三"},{"start":7683.226,"end":7703.247,"text":"第二、三、六、四還要引領因為他的這個職長我覺得帶領的人他一定我們最近也發生了一些所謂的大家知道上對下的一些不好的行為這些引領就是你要怎麼去和善親和力跟下面的處得好因為上面背景什麼都不重要他只要做好管理是下面人的專業要夠我看這個主政是很好的"},{"start":7703.787,"end":7703.807,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7721.676,"end":7739.991,"text":"對於三個山我覺得非常重要我是先講一下我覺得認為要認識人的條件第三個就叫宏觀、前瞻還有智慧我們知道世界一直在變化那川普上來有很多的變化我昨天其實回來以後一下來就到了這個去這個一個經濟會去做了演講講川普未來的川普2.0"},{"start":7741.572,"end":7766.005,"text":"講了非常多也跟這個世界將來可能的變化做一些我自己的一些勾畫一些插門推演不過重點我要講的是宏觀就是因為我們要知道世界在變我們剛才有講到數位我們現在走上數位平台的消費像我們最近的這個所謂的UberEats和UberPanda的併購案它也是一個世界的變化所以你一定要宏觀了解世界的趨勢怎麼走要不是疫情當我相信這個所謂的外交平台也沒有"},{"start":7766.345,"end":7766.685,"text":"我是不是還有兩分鐘"},{"start":7782.946,"end":7807.555,"text":"時間一分鐘好那第三個我覺得要運用智慧因為在這裡面我們要這個是一個普民的普惠的東西剛才我們這個楊立委有講到那不管怎麼說你一定要這個勇於以民為本啊那就是要普惠大眾所以我覺得非常重要因此我最後要講究新才德也好入世淫女或者是這個童理性也好或者最後講的宏觀前瞻智慧也好最後我就就拉上起來就是這些人一定要做到所謂的認真"},{"start":7809.396,"end":7829.759,"text":"認真、善盡職守不可怠慢拖延非為己司己立我們當然最怕是為勢力當到一定的職位最後是要勇於以民為本時間的關係我就必須再講一下那第二個個體經濟學的條件第一個叫Fairness我剛剛講公平其實你去翻經濟學個體經濟的第一章就是這兩個字不用讀別的"},{"start":7830.199,"end":7856.322,"text":"各級經濟學第一章當然他一開始講說社會資源是有限的啦就是scarcity然後你要怎麼樣去做最好的choice這是最基礎兩個然後講各級經濟學就叫什麼叫efficiency好再給我一分鐘efficiency我覺得非常重要那我只能這樣強調一下這四個委員那剛才其實我沒有想去查他們背景結果剛好我們的黃立委呢這裡有拉上起來那個很厚的一本在他的36頁我有看到這八個委員裡面"},{"start":7856.983,"end":7874.853,"text":"有七個只有一個是經濟背景其他都法律背景那我就會很擔心因為完全以法我其實很擔心法來束縛人民我覺得法非常重要其實需不需要這麼多人來去喬這個法我覺得不一定但我倒覺得經濟人非常重要為什麼這裡面跟經濟活動非常非常有關係"},{"start":7875.914,"end":7892.356,"text":"我跟各位講 剛才的馬拉普里或阿里嘎普里一樣寡占市場也非常需要公平的處理因為不管是不是聯合壟斷等等的都非常重要甚至連關愛買、加勒福安去拆價拆量他們之前有沒有用所謂的什麼這個情志在對方做的時候來一些違法這些經濟的活動"},{"start":7894.318,"end":7916.655,"text":"是非常重要的還有更嚴重的叫做完全性競爭市場是看起來是一個完全競爭市場完全競爭但它是一個不完全的獨佔市場大家知道嗎?這叫Moleculistic Competition所以我最後講的Efficiency就用最後這樣我來end up我的話語好了時間實在是很短我不知道我一下子還雖然把時間用完了"},{"start":7917.395,"end":7945.268,"text":"那我現在要強調就是這個雖然我剛看了一下新聞這個李美主委呢她講到這次烏噴打還有這個Uber Eats的問題啊那麼他們從5月14號就開始宣布申請在這個公平網站這個申請網站公平網站去宣布那最後呢在11月15號她回答了一句話說這個法律條件可能最快30天最後還會延60天一直到明年3月我這裡有一個心理的疑問Why?為什麼?"},{"start":7945.908,"end":7971.173,"text":"因為我覺得efficiency叫效率那效率當然另外一次是叫積極aggressive我覺得如果你做這樣的委員你不積極效率的話如何去做好你所謂的公平交易呢所以我最後再強調一下因為時間的關係我有兩個這邊的最後的重點第一個 個體經濟學裡面非常強調兩件事第一個 fairness 這裡公聽會就是做這個第一個 efficiency我有發覺他們的積極效率可能不夠"},{"start":7972.353,"end":7996.52,"text":"這個當然就會聯想到我剛講的會不會就是所謂代呼職守的想法但我希望你能夠積極積極再積極因為這跟人民有關很多東西不能拖我跟各位報告一下矽谷訂了一個非常重要的什麼叫AI法他為什麼要訂AI法AI專利法就是因為在矽谷這個地方如果你不告訴你現在法律訴訟現在就訂案的話他可能去訴訟拖了5年9年整個GPT整個人腦就改變了"},{"start":7997.08,"end":7997.42,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8015.33,"end":8016.993,"text":"王淑美教授"},{"start":8032.846,"end":8053.535,"text":"主席、各位與會來賓大家好我是台大生產系的王淑美那針對今天的提名審查我大概有兩大項的意見跟建議第一個部分是關於所有提名人他們的資料呈現那我認為除了目前有相關的一些"},{"start":8055.636,"end":8079.988,"text":"目前現有的一個陳述的方式我認為應該要加上績效評估的部分所謂績效的評估是我們期待我們這些委員在任內在他的任期當中能夠執行幾件事情第一個是他當初被提名時他自己所提出來的一些相關的政策政見在他們就職的期間內"},{"start":8080.828,"end":8105.027,"text":"是否可以達成那我希望做一個績效評估的一個呈現讓我們了解他們在這段時間裡面是否如他們所言的達到他將要做到的這些事情那第二個部分呢要呈現的應該是他針對在任期內所有因為時事所產生的一些事件以及對應的一個成果"},{"start":8105.467,"end":8105.667,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8135.495,"end":8152.676,"text":"這是第一個部分第二個部分則是針對整個政策未來發展方向應該要注意的我個人認為最重要的應該要正是AI參與我們立法還有整個消費環境的共同參與的部分"},{"start":8153.337,"end":8178.223,"text":"那我想前面有很多的委員都已經提到了數位經濟、大數據或者是AI參與但是我想有絕大多數的人提出的都是學術的理論的部分可以給我們那個行政單位參考的東西相對是比較薄弱的我在這裡所要提出的則是比較具體可以提供各位做立即可以遵從的部分"},{"start":8179.568,"end":8205.021,"text":"就是關於AI參與的部分有多個我們要關注的部分我這裡特別強調的應該是在AI參與的時候倫理還有風險必須是被我們所注重的以及這些我們關係的倫理和風險我們可以用什麼樣的方式來處理這邊我建議我們公聽會這邊可以參考的應該會是歐盟對於AI使用的倫理準則"},{"start":8206.962,"end":8230.021,"text":"那歐盟對於AI使用的倫理準則擴張的包括民間如何使用AI作為相關的消費的分析還有推波第二個部分呢也對於我們政府機關如果引用了AI作為我們執法的配套工具的時候我們應該要怎麼樣的注重那我這邊就跟大家做幾項分享"},{"start":8230.822,"end":8250.653,"text":"第一個部分就是歐盟建議我們AI在使用的時候在倫理的準則上應該有三個要件第一個是合法也就是我們資訊的取得必須是合法的那第二個部分是我們資訊的判準必須要符合倫理倫理是非常因時因地質疑的"},{"start":8251.593,"end":8275.794,"text":"那這個部分呢也就是我們公聽會非常需要深入的無論是它資料取得的合法性或者是它邏輯計算的符合倫理性那最後則是健全的一個AI使用的環境所以配套AI使用的一些使用的準則、法規、範圍也都是我們未來在執法的時候或立法的時候應該要悟切"},{"start":8276.314,"end":8287.387,"text":"又非常務實的來明定這個部分引領大家走向一個比較正確讓AI協助我們有更好生活的一個領域那再來呢有四個原則"},{"start":8289.059,"end":8311.849,"text":"歐盟注意的第一個AI使用的原則就是公平這是我們公平會必須要充分使用的這個公平包括了幾個部分第一個是資料取得的公平以及演算的過程當中價值的公平性所以這也就配合了下面另外幾個部分就是可解釋性目前所有的AI平臺面臨最大國際間"},{"start":8313.75,"end":8341.932,"text":"質疑的部分就是他的知識圖譜還有他演算的公式不公開這造成了這個黑箱作業所做成的最後的判準所做成最後的一個結果的建議是讓我們疑惑的我們很多人都只有使用卻不曉得後面的邏輯其實這不可知道黑箱的這個判準的邏輯就會造成社會真正的不公平而且這個不公平會隨著我們對AI的依賴日升而加重"},{"start":8342.612,"end":8352.467,"text":"那在加重的過程當中如果我們後續才去追蹤的時候傷害就已經造成了所以公聽會在這個部分無論是我們今天被提名的"},{"start":8353.704,"end":8380.532,"text":"這些人選或者是整個公聽會未來在執行的過程當中這個部分的投入對於AI的關注倫理還有規範的部分除了我們要關注最重要的是要加重將相關的一些專業人才無論是投入或者是本身素質的提升然後務使AI成為我們幫助我們生活的更好的工具而不是讓我們人類變成AI的奴隸"},{"start":8382.132,"end":8403.261,"text":"最後會有幾項具體的要求包括使用AI的這些單位他們必須是要能夠公開他們的程式還有知識圖譜並且堅守外在人為無論是倫理或者是事法性的一些監督最後是"},{"start":8403.941,"end":8428.819,"text":"在採取大數據還有一些資訊的時候這些隱私還有資料的處理它背後最深層的一些邏輯都是我們必須要在乎的那透過以上我的這些建議希望我們在未來我們是一個前進的而且是使用AI而不是被AI使用的一個組織和環境那以上是我的發言"},{"start":8431.18,"end":8436.329,"text":"好 謝謝臺大生物產業發展研究所 黃素美教授發言來好 下一位請黃國昌發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":8454.828,"end":8474.265,"text":"非常感謝今天與會所有的學者專家對於這一次本院在審查公平交易委員會的委員同意權的形式提出了非常多寶貴的建議公聽會的這個單位長時間以來雖然在社會上面所得到的關注並沒有非常的高但是實際上"},{"start":8475.686,"end":8495.011,"text":"它對於整個不僅僅是市場的經濟甚至是消費者權益的保護至關重大那因此怎麼樣可以找出優秀的人才在公平交易法的立法規範議職當中去促進消費者的權益實現公共利益這個是我們在這一次"},{"start":8495.771,"end":8512.242,"text":"人事統一權審查的過程當中的重中之重必須要注意的事項那為什麼我會對公平交易委員會的委員在統一權的形式上面會有這麼高的關注我想用一個具體的例子來加以說明"},{"start":8513.844,"end":8538.599,"text":"2018年我第一次擔任立委的時候我在經濟委員會質詢我揭發了東洋製藥壟斷大腸癌的用藥控制藥品的價格那不僅僅造成了我國健保在這個用藥上面不當高金額的支付那同時也侵害了非常多病患的權益那個時候"},{"start":8539.56,"end":8566.627,"text":"我針對這件事情提出質詢而且公開的檢舉之後我們東洋製藥發出了一個聲明說我在這邊質詢的是假訊息他們的大廠來用藥沒有違反公平交易法這個是在2018年的時候公開在經濟委員會裡面所提出來的質詢那後續東洋製藥"},{"start":8569.639,"end":8592.341,"text":"不管他找誰去當了門神不管他對於哪些政治人物有政治獻金的捐贖一個專業獨立的公平會他應該要發揮的功能就是什麼他應該要發揮的功能就是站在維持市場秩序站在保障消費者權益的立場執法"},{"start":8595.336,"end":8604.082,"text":"那雖然老實講以處理的時效上面來講拖了算非常的久拖了兩年半我們的公聽會處分東陽製藥財罰兩億兩千萬"},{"start":8609.571,"end":8636.482,"text":"另外一家跟東洋製藥進行聯合行為的美食公司遭罰了6500萬元從公平交易委員會事後裁罰的結果可以清楚地看得出來當初在這邊質詢的時候所做的檢舉絕對是有理有據而我們的東洋製藥或許因為政商關係背後非常的雄厚"},{"start":8637.632,"end":8657.857,"text":"當初發了新聞稿對社會散播的假訊息到今天為止沒有任何一句的道歉也沒有任何一句的認錯這是為什麼一個專業、獨立、扛得起政治壓力不管東洋製藥找誰去當門神都一樣必須要捍衛市場"},{"start":8663.082,"end":8684.111,"text":"競爭秩序必須要捍衛消費者保護權益非常重要的部分我也期待下一屆的公平交易委員會下一屆的公平交易委員會可以扛得起壓力繼續的去捍衛整個消費者的權益因為接下來在行政訴訟的過程當中東陽製藥"},{"start":8687.492,"end":8712.029,"text":"不斷的希望我們的公平交易委員會能夠透過跟他們私下和解的方式來處理這個案子那我們這一屆公平委員如果通過了同意權的行使是不是會繼續的捍衛公共利益是不是會繼續的站在保障消費者的權利去堅守公平交易委員會應該要用專業獨立的立場來"},{"start":8716.132,"end":8733.617,"text":"捍衛自己本身所做的行政處分而不會私下跟這些大財團、大藥廠甚至有政治背景在當門神的公司私下就把這件事情給和諧過去了也是我們接下來在立法院裡面會監督的重點"},{"start":8734.717,"end":8750.294,"text":"再次感謝今天所有的專家學者對於我們委員會所提出來的寶貴建議你們所提出來的寶貴建議都會成為我們接下來在行使人事同意權的時候重要的參考再次的感謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":8757.881,"end":8782.057,"text":"今天這個有很多專家學者八點多就到了謝謝你們這個為了這個審查提供很多寶貴的意見各位寶貴的意見我想會作為我們一定是30號會開審查會30號之前各位學者專家的寶貴意見我們都會把它很詳細地彙整起來給所有這個"},{"start":8784.959,"end":8785.579,"text":"全院委員參考"}]}},{"id":"158164","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158164","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1e591c98612fdae3542925a05e1c517d18f00481bd910a073f03749d7e409c8a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:43:26 - 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這是對不起對不起"},{"start":467.364,"end":467.384,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":485.222,"end":499.25,"text":"一直以來我擔心的很多狀況我剛有提到國家財政不佳的時候所有的人都能共提時間但是當今天國家財政好的時候那是不是應該要有所改變"},{"start":500.74,"end":526.878,"text":"甚至你要去思考最近這幾年通膨這麼嚴重的狀況下為什麼我們還不好好的去想該怎麼做而是就是一句話不能撥補然後講一堆有的沒有的然後搞了一堆譬如說能源政策錯誤之下幾千億就這樣賠光光然後將來還要面對很多高額的碳稅以及高失業率然後企業因為生產成本增加而必須外移政府沒有在給你管這個東西所以"},{"start":528.103,"end":554.55,"text":"我實在不認為說把一個年改這個議題把它限縮到只是這個基金能不能夠永續就好像當做一切拿這個來說罪你應該是通盤的去思考國家的財政以及通膨的問題那為什麼我一直強調國家財政要思考因為請各位去看一下大法官的解釋大法官對於年改為什麼沒有損害到信賴保護他就認為說因為是公益需求"},{"start":556.091,"end":575.729,"text":"公益需求存在於國家財政有困難的時候你可以叫全國人民大家一起擔但是當國家財政每年超出那麼多今年甚至要到4千億他就還是跟你講不能那這時候我想大家都不能接受最後我還是希望一個健全的制度一個可受信賴的政府這個是非常重要的"},{"start":576.613,"end":576.633,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":591.223,"end":614.469,"text":"不是所謂的基金要永續而是國家要永續只有國家有一流人才國家才能壯大壯大的國家才能保護我們不要再給我騙什麼抗中保來講一些五四三然後來總是用那個東西來來掩飾自己錯誤的政策還有為了選舉的利益然後總是拿這個東西來騙人好這邊謝謝各位謝謝各位專家今天來給我們的指導"}]}},{"id":"16365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16365","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e42a67f5a6c5408b74be335d15c1ead0178081dad70f87c46ccb2c366541b51ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：繼續審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案(114年度)」（處理）。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-16","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-16T08:31:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-16T12:55:00+08:00","duration":15806,"影片長度":"04:23:26","委員發言時間":"08:31:34 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1914年度》報告討論事項合併詢答經行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝經濟部政務次長何敬昌交通部常務次長林國賢內政部政務次長董建宏社會發展部部長黃燕蘭農業部部長陳俊濟教育部部長鄭英耀國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":2715.646,"end":2744.722,"text":"主任委員吳承文（文化部部長李遠就中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形成效及第5期特別預算案114年度提出報告後繼後委員林大夫等54人提出質詢均經行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝等予以答覆決議一 報告說明及詢答完畢二 委員質詢會及答覆會請補充資訊請相關部會於週內書面答覆委員逆要求期限者從即鎖定三 委員蘇金權、陳昭芝、蔡其昌、陳家俊、陳淑月、邱益穎"},{"start":2745.462,"end":2765.392,"text":"葉延之、邱振鈞、蔡宇宇首席書面執行列入紀錄．列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會書面答覆中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案114年度另折及繼續審查五、各委員如果有相關預算提案請11月27日星期三中午12點以前送至財政委員會議事人員收件宣傳並"},{"start":2768.134,"end":2778.198,"text":"我們在場委員為主法定人數我們議事務暫不確定請議員先讀今日的議程討論事項繼續審查行政院函請審議中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案114年度宣傳筆我們先介紹在場的委員陳金輝委員我們接著介紹我們在場的部會首長行政院主計總書陳淑芝主計長"},{"start":2797.741,"end":2823.934,"text":"財政部莊翠雲莊部長中央研究院的彭信坤彭副院長國立故宮博物院的蕭忠旺蕭院長國家發展委員會的劉靜清劉主任委員有主委援助民主委員會的古仲科勒方安副主委"},{"start":2827.131,"end":2845.616,"text":"客家委員會的古秀菲主任委員和人安全委員會的陳明禎陳主任委員行政法人國家行政院公共工程委員會的陳金德陳主委"},{"start":2850.135,"end":2867.086,"text":"今天我們介紹部長代表各部會的首長人類政部的董建宏董次長政府次長教育部的鄭英耀政部長經濟部的連錦章常務次長連次長交通部的陳彥博陳次長常務次長"},{"start":2877.94,"end":2905.598,"text":"勞動部的洪森漢 洪部長農業部的陳俊濟 陳部長衛福部的林靜怡 林次長環境部的彭啟明 彭部長文化部的徐怡君 徐次長數位發展部的黃燕蘭 黃部長還沒到是薛次長"},{"start":2909.205,"end":2921.014,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會的蘇政剛蘇副主委本次會議安排繼續審查中央政府前瞻"},{"start":2922.56,"end":2950.423,"text":"基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案114年度均均與行單完畢我們現在進行預算處理請議事的員宣讀今日審查預算案之審查項目及提案共280案依據宣讀時間為50分鐘宣讀完畢後依據10點10分我們開始進行協商好那現在我們讓議事人員宣讀大家可以先休息一下"},{"start":2951.204,"end":2967.651,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案審查項目一、收入703億5萬元二、支出703億5萬元、稅出703億5萬元第一款,總統府主管4200萬元第一項,中央研究院4200萬元第一幕,綠能建設3000萬元第二幕,數位建設1200萬元第二款,行政院主管"},{"start":2976.215,"end":2979.198,"text":"14億4682萬7千元國立國光博物院2700萬元數位建設2700萬元國家發展委員會2億7918萬5千元數位建設1億5168萬5千元人才培育促進機會建設1億2750萬元"},{"start":2995.131,"end":3003.436,"text":"原住民組委員會614,940萬元第1目城鄉建設614,940萬元第4項客家委員會及所屬319,490萬元第1目城鄉建設319,490萬元第5項河南安全委員會及所屬7,800萬元第1目河南建設7,800萬元第6項公共工程委員會1,834萬2千元第1目數位建設1,834萬2千元第3款內政部主管"},{"start":3020.785,"end":3047.367,"text":"一百二十七億一千六百四十二萬六千元第一項內政部十二億六千九百八十二萬六千元第一幕數位建設一千零五十七萬六千元第二幕城鄉建設十二億五千九百二十五萬元第二項國土管理署級所屬九十九億兩千八百萬元第一幕綠能建設兩千八百萬元第二幕城鄉建設六十五億元第三幕所環境建設三十四億元第三項警政署級所屬七億五千四百四十萬元"},{"start":3048.027,"end":3059.39,"text":"第一幕 城鄉建設7億5440萬元第4項 消防暑期所屬2億4220萬元第一幕 數位建設2200萬元第二幕 城鄉建設2億2020萬元第5項 綠能建築研究所5億2200萬元第一幕 綠能建設5億2200萬元第4款 財政部主管1億6197萬元第一項 負稅組2530萬元第一幕 城鄉建設2530萬元第二項"},{"start":3076.215,"end":3081.818,"text":"官務署及所屬2138萬1千元第一幕數位建設2138萬1千元第三項財政資訊中心1億1528萬9千元第一幕數位建設1億1528萬9千元第二款交易部主管40億9973萬5千元第一項交易部"},{"start":3094.266,"end":3098.911,"text":"19億490萬元第1目數位建設5億7150萬元第2目人才培育促進計畫建設9億2700萬元第3目城鄉建設4億640萬元第2項國民及學前教育署21億9083萬5千元第1目數位建設2億4933萬5千元第2目"},{"start":3113.286,"end":3124.397,"text":"人才培育促進教育建設19億4150萬元第三項國立教育廣播電台400萬元第一幕人才培育促進教育建設400萬元第二款經濟部主管206億8711萬8千元第一項經濟部29億4456萬元第一幕"},{"start":3130.422,"end":3158.38,"text":"綠能建設 兩億千萬元 第二幕 數位建設 二十七億三千四百五十六萬元 第二項 產業發展署 十一五千七百八十八萬八千元 第一幕 綠能建設 科學支出 兩億三千五百五十萬元 第二幕 數位建設 六億四千一百八十三萬四千元 第三幕 人才培育租金機會建設 八千五百五十五萬四千元 第四幕 綠能建設 工業支出 九千五百萬元 第三項 標準檢驗局及所屬 一億四千八百二十九萬四千元 第一幕"},{"start":3158.86,"end":3173.317,"text":"綠能建設一億四千四百萬元第二幕數位建設四百二十九萬四千元第四項智慧財產局一千七百八十三萬六千元第一幕數位建設一千七百八十三萬六千元第五項水利署及所屬一百三八億八千三百一十萬元"},{"start":3173.717,"end":3184.004,"text":"第1目 數位建設2600萬元第2目 水環境建設138億5710萬元第6項 商業發展署7億4千326萬元第1目 數位建設1億9千萬元第2目 人才培育促進就業建設196萬元第3目 城鄉建設5億5130萬元第7項 中小及新創企業署2億4千4百萬元第1目 數位建設9千4百萬元第2目 城鄉建設1億5000萬元第8項 產業園區管理局及所署"},{"start":3203.197,"end":3209.083,"text":"6億5,818萬元人才培育促進就業建設818萬元城鄉建設6億5千萬元地質調查及礦業管理中心2億7百萬元綠能建設科學支出6千7百萬元綠能建設工業支出1億4千萬元"},{"start":3224.197,"end":3236.706,"text":"7億8千3百萬元第一幕綠能建設7億8千3百萬元第7款交通部主管144億5千6百71萬元第一項交通部27億3千4百81萬4千元第一幕軌道建設25億4千4百90萬元第二幕數位建設8千391萬4千元第三幕城鄉建設1億6百萬元第二項"},{"start":3244.992,"end":3262.982,"text":"中央氣象署一億一千六百萬元,第一幕數位建設一億一千六百萬元,第三項觀光署及所屬五億兩千九百萬元,第一幕城鄉建設五億兩千九百萬元,第四項運輸研究所七百萬元,第一幕數位建設七百萬元,第五項公路局及所屬七三億五千八百七十萬五千元,"},{"start":3263.382,"end":3279.591,"text":"第一幕綠能建設科學支出3,450萬元第二幕數位建設科學支出3,100萬元第三幕所環境建設2億5,100萬元第四幕綠能建設交通支出1億2千萬元第五幕數位建設交通支出3億7,820萬5千元第六幕城鄉建設65億4,400萬元第二項鐵道局及所屬36億3,238萬1千元"},{"start":3288.254,"end":3306.346,"text":"第一幕數位建設科學支出五千兩百萬元第二幕軌道建設三十一億一千九百二十萬元第三幕數位建設交通支出一千九百八十八萬一千元第四幕城鄉建設四千一百三十萬元第七項港港局七千八百八十一萬元第一幕城鄉建設七千八百八十一萬元"},{"start":3306.946,"end":3334.883,"text":"第8款 勞動部主管一億八千一百一十萬元第一項 勞動部一億八千一百一十萬元第一幕 城鄉建設一億八千一百一十萬元第9款 農業部主管四十二億兩千四百六十九萬元第一項 農業部三億六千四百七十三萬元第一幕 水環境建設兩億兩千一百萬元第二幕 數位建設一億四千三百一十八萬元第三幕 城鄉建設五十五萬元第二項 林業及自然保育署及所屬九億四千一百二十六萬七千元"},{"start":3335.643,"end":3343.991,"text":"水環境建設9億4126萬7千元第三項農村發展及水土保持暑期所屬13億5400萬元第一幕水環境建設13億5400萬元第四項農業試驗所及所屬1686萬元第一幕數位建設1686萬元"},{"start":3351.798,"end":3365.575,"text":"第5項水產試驗所350萬元第一幕數位建設350萬元第二項蓄產試驗所及所屬30萬元第一幕數位建設30萬元第7項茶集飲料作業物改良廠230萬元第一幕數位建設230萬元第8項"},{"start":3368.037,"end":3375.863,"text":"總苗改良繁殖場100萬元 第一幕數位建設100萬元 第9項臺灣區農業改良場360萬元 第一幕數位建設360萬元 第10項苗栗區農業改良場140萬元 第一幕數位建設140萬元 第11項臺中區農業改良場580萬元 第一幕數位建設580萬元 第12項"},{"start":3388.752,"end":3388.772,"text":"委員會審議"},{"start":3403.709,"end":3414.277,"text":"第15項,臺東區農業改良廠140萬元,第1目輸液建設140萬元第16項,漁業署及所屬,失益3830萬7千元,第1目水環境建設失益3830萬7千元第17項,動植物防疫檢疫署及所屬,1200萬元,第1目輸液建設1200萬元第18項,農田水利署,失益6942萬6千元,第1目水環境建設失益6142萬6千元,第2目輸液建設800萬元"},{"start":3431.129,"end":3452.728,"text":"第10款 衛生福利部主管34億1744萬元第1項 衛生福利部6億1935萬4千元第1目 城鄉建設6億1935萬4千元第2項 食品藥物管理署13億5000萬元第1目 食品安全建設13億5000萬元第3項 國民健康署8億7704萬6千元第1目 城鄉建設8億7704萬6千元第4項 社會及家庭署"},{"start":3457.432,"end":3487.152,"text":"五億七千一百零四萬元 第一幕城鄉建設九千八百六十萬元 第二幕因爲少子化有善意的空間建設四億七千兩百四十四萬元 第11款環境部主管十億四千五百八十萬元 第一項環境部五億六千一百五十一萬四千元 第一幕水環境建設兩億七千三百萬元 第二幕綠能建設兩億元 第三幕數位建設八千八百五十五四萬四千元 第二項氣候變遷數四億四千兩百萬元 第一幕綠能建設四億四千兩百萬元 第三項環境管理署"},{"start":3489.593,"end":3507.678,"text":"一千四百二十四萬六千元,第一幕數位建設五百四十四萬六千元,第二幕城鄉建設八百八十萬元,第四項國家環境研究院兩千八百萬元,第一幕綠能建設兩千八百萬元,第十二款文化部主管十三月八千三百八十八萬八千元,第一項文化部九五億四千七百八十八萬八千元,"},{"start":3508.078,"end":3531.017,"text":"第一幕 數位建設 兩億七百一十八萬八千元第二幕 城鄉建設 七億四千零七十萬元第二項 文化資產局 三億六千萬元第一幕 城鄉建設 三億六千萬元第三項 國立台灣歷史博物館 七千六百萬元第一幕 數位建設 七千六百萬元第三款 數位發展部主管 四十七億五千五百三十四萬六千元第一項 數位發展部 二十九億八千五百零六萬元"},{"start":3531.798,"end":3540.004,"text":"第一幕數位建設29億8506萬元第二項知識通關檢數71200萬元第一幕數位建設71200萬元第三項數位產業數15828萬6千元第一幕數位建設11800萬元第二幕人才培育促進就業建設4028萬6千元第14款國家科學及技術委員會主管16億8100萬元第一項國家科學及技術委員會16億8100萬元第一幕"},{"start":3559.057,"end":3582.511,"text":"數位建設14億9500萬元,第二幕燃財培育促進建設1億8600萬元,有關正式別稅出預算,隨當以上機關別審查結果調整。融資財源調度部分,稅出所需財源703億5萬元,全數與舉借債務之異。宣讀委員提案。第一案至第六案為通案。第一案。"},{"start":3583.413,"end":3612.592,"text":"未來面對財務法修正中央財政可能減少6,612億情況下,原要求主計處規劃財源及事權重新調整方案,並提出書面報告,為李坤城等三人提案。第二案,請主計總署、協同、國發會等管考機關或整個主管機關持續積極辦理各項個案計畫,並針對各項下止計畫一年度各執行部會或所屬單位、縣市、鄉鎮市區受補助單位補助金額辦理情景執行成效。"},{"start":3613.353,"end":3613.514,"text":"會診列表"},{"start":3615.782,"end":3641.943,"text":"委員何新傳等三人提案第3案請財政部評估針對金管會開放之新型商品預計帶來之稅收以及對於我國114年之財政狀況影響提出書面報告委員郭國恩等三人提案第4案請財政部評估如何藉由租稅優惠來鼓勵民眾以投資代替儲蓄並提出書面報告委員郭國恩等三人提案第5案內政部提升大陸品質計畫以搭配行人交通安全設施條例與前台799處危險入口改善"},{"start":3643.744,"end":3667.186,"text":"配合施工積極辦理道路設計之改善避免同一路段重復施工之問題為無配1.3人提案第6案因物價上漲導致工程費用增加北市整體捷運網路請行政院交通部另行撥補經費以支持北市整體捷運路網之完整發展為無配1.3人提案第7案至第14案為中央研究院提案"},{"start":3668.493,"end":3693.314,"text":"第7案 中央行政綠能建設減濾10%凍結20%第8案 綠能建設向下建置分散式區域規模式大型儲能系統凍結20%委員麥一貞等三人提案第9案 綠能建設凍結500萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案第10案 綠能建設凍結5%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第11案"},{"start":3696.38,"end":3724.758,"text":"數位建設向下建構開放政府及智慧城鄉服務減退15%、凍結15%委員陳金輝等三人提案第12案建構開放政府及智慧城鄉服務凍結500萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案第13案建構開放政府及智慧城鄉服務凍結100萬元委員張冉寧等三人提案第14案數位建設凍結15%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第15案自第2三案為國立過關博物院之提案第15案"},{"start":3726.184,"end":3744.694,"text":"數位建設檢略15%、凍結15%委員陳金輝等3人提案。第16案數位建設向下發展數位文創普及高畫質服務、凍結30%委員羅明財等3人提案。第17案發展數位文創普及高畫質服務、凍結20%委員蔓一貞等3人提案。第18案"},{"start":3746.232,"end":3771.694,"text":"數位建設凍結500萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案第19案發展數位溫創普及及高畫質服務凍結10%委員盧憲英等三人提案第20案數位建設凍結5%委員黃雙山等三人提案第21案數位建設凍結5%委員黃雙山等三人提案第22案數位建設凍結100萬元委員張雅琳等三人提案第23案主決議要求"},{"start":3773.064,"end":3790.589,"text":"國立國防博物院提交前瞻第5期故宮智慧博物館計畫數位典藏、智能化及虛實整合數位展示對未來應用展示之內容選定作業機制運作說明之書面報告委員陳金輝等上任提案第2次案之第40案為國家發展委員會之提案第2次案"},{"start":3792.199,"end":3803.604,"text":"所謂建設項目下基礎環境建設檢列35%、凍結35%委員陳金輝等三人提案第25案基礎建設環境凍結100%委員盧鑫一等三人提案第26案基礎建設環境凍結5%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第27案"},{"start":3810.647,"end":3830.383,"text":"數位建設向下推廣數位公益服務檢列15%凍結15%委員陳金輝等三案提案第18案推廣數位公益服務向下業務費檢列3000萬元委員賴思寶等三案提案第29案數位建設向下推廣數位公益服務檢列2000萬元凍結500萬元委員邱振軍等三案提案第30案"},{"start":3831.44,"end":3849.238,"text":"人才培育促進教育建設 减六百分之二十五 凍結百分之十五 文成經費等三項提案第31案 人才培育促進教育建設 减六千萬元 凍結五百萬元 文邱正軍等三項提案第32案 人才培育促進教育建設 减六百分之五 文薛一鳳等三項提案第33案"},{"start":3849.898,"end":3876.254,"text":"人才培育促進教育建設凍結8000萬元為納斯堡等三人提案。第34案 人才培育促進教育建設凍結10%為盧仙音等三人提案。第35案 人才培育促進教育建設凍結10%為黃珊珊等三人提案。第36案 人才培育促進教育建設凍結1000萬元為何欣存等三人提案。第37案 人才培育促進教育建設凍結5%為吳佩儀等三人提案。"},{"start":3877.555,"end":3888.495,"text":"第3項主決議請國家發展委員會就五大目標達成情況及設立行政法人專責機構推動進度提出書面報告為李坤誠等上任提案第39案"},{"start":3890.56,"end":3912.235,"text":"要求國家發展委員會願意將海洋產業納入兆元投資國家發展方案並改善海洋產業投入公共建設制度條件並提出書面報告,為林靜憲等上4人提案。第40案請國發會接同相關部會盤點我國建設適合位置化並由財政部主導供股航庫協助發行"},{"start":3913.876,"end":3927.465,"text":"讓瑞士市場財務正向發展並提出書面報告委員郭國仁等3人提案第41至第43案委員原住民主委員會提案第41案推動原住民主多元產業發展2.0動輒30%委員盧先一等3人提案"},{"start":3929.986,"end":3947.601,"text":"第42案 推動原住民族多元產業發展2.0 凍結10%委員蔓依珍等3人提案第43案 推動原住民族多元產業發展2.0 凍結5%委員黃珊珊等3人提案第44案 致第48案為客家委員會及所屬之提案"},{"start":3948.362,"end":3969.965,"text":"第44案 城鄉建設向下客庄369幸福凍結15%委員陳金輝等3人提案第45案 城鄉建設凍結10分之1委員蘇興權等3人提案第46案 城鄉建設凍結5%委員黃珊珊等3人提案第47案 城鄉建設凍結1000萬元委員張雅琳等3人提案第38案"},{"start":3971.229,"end":3984.688,"text":"陳香建設凍結50萬元委員邱振軍等上任提案第49至第52案為河南安全委員會及所屬之提案第49案河南安全委員會及所屬檢略25%凍結25%委員陳金輝等上任提案第50案"},{"start":3989.219,"end":4014.321,"text":"綠能建設簡列千萬元凍結五十萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案第51案綠能建設向下蔣補助會簡列三千萬元委員賴世寶等三人提案第52案主決議河南安全委員會及所屬單位予應積極進行相關研究緊縮落實食物應用以提升我國配電管理效率並提出訓練報告委員林一景等三人提案第53案至第53案"},{"start":4016.796,"end":4040.433,"text":"檢略公共工程委員會及所屬25%、斷絕25%委員陳金輝等三案提案第54案主決議要求公共工程委員會因限期於兩個月內完成通盤制採購作業檢視與檢討作業並提出書面報告委員陳金輝等三案提案第55至第58案為內政部提案第55案基礎建設環境"},{"start":4044.878,"end":4047.001,"text":"公共服務據點整備公共服務據點整備主決議"},{"start":4062.3,"end":4082.838,"text":"請主管機關緊速審查可信性評估並協助台南市政府辦理後續綜合規劃及環境影響評估等作業文明俊憲等三人提案第59到75案為國土管理署及所屬之提案第59案綠能建設盪結10%文成金黑等三人提案第60案綠能建設盪結5%文黃珊珊等三人提案第61案"},{"start":4084.339,"end":4103.58,"text":"陳江政策向以下提升大陸品質凍結板柱10委員萬玉京等3人提案第62案提升大陸品質凍結板柱委員黃珊珊等3人提案第63案提升大陸品質凍結板柱委員盧憲一等3人提案第64案陳江政策凍結1000萬元委員邱振軍等3人提案第65案"},{"start":4105.017,"end":4121.644,"text":"提升大陸品質向下業務費 減列500萬元為納釋寶等3頁提案第66案 城鄉建設凍結30%為樓民財等3頁提案第67案 水環境建設凍結5000萬元為邱振軍等3頁提案第68案 水環境建設向下水安全支業務費減列600萬元為納釋寶等3頁提案第69案及第70案為同一案"},{"start":4134.159,"end":4137.569,"text":"所予完全凍結的百分之二十為《貿易戰等三十提案》"},{"start":4139.986,"end":4167.717,"text":"所謂安全斷絕5%為黃珊珊等三人提案第72案所謂安全斷絕5%為盧仙怡等三人提案第73案主決以新市台南市新市衛生排水車水站新建工程2.5億元補助經費以及永康東車水站老舊基礎及周邊設施改善工程1.5億元補助經費建請內政部國土管理署緊速核定相關經費並提出書面報告為林一錦等三人提案第74案"},{"start":4169.658,"end":4188.172,"text":"國土管理署於110年推動道路品質提升計畫辦理補助各地方政府道路品質改善工程為近期發現高雄市多數馬路隨處可見顏色不一致補丁挖索管道路也不平整請內政部提出具體改善措施委員陳金輝等上任提案第75案請內政部提出"},{"start":4189.173,"end":4208.755,"text":"南臺灣治水改善計畫以改善地方排水情形以及精準掌握各地方淹水情形委員陳金輝等三人提案第76案至第81案為警政署提案第76案陳先生向下公共服務據點整備凍結3億元委員陳昌明等三人提案第77案"},{"start":4212.543,"end":4222.309,"text":"公共服務據點整備凍結10分之1委員蘇金權等3人提案公共服務據點整備凍結10%委員蕃玉君等3人提案公共服務據點整備凍結5%委員黃珊珊等3人提案陳香建設凍結100萬元委員邱正軍等3人提案陳香建設向下公共服務據點整備"},{"start":4237.95,"end":4259.76,"text":"高雄市政府警察局以盤點需整修建共計劃事務處處請警政署如期如質如意秀完工疫情警政署盤點高雄市及南台灣之老舊警察辦公廳設數量及情形並提出疏通報告為曾經會等上年提案第82案之第85案為消防署之提案第82案"},{"start":4261.724,"end":4267.571,"text":"消防署凍結10%為輸精選等3項提案公共服務據點整備凍結10%為貿易軍等3項提案城鄉建設凍結100萬元為邱正軍等3項提案公共服務據點整備"},{"start":4281.656,"end":4298.483,"text":"支組決議 高雄市政府消防廳舍內部設施需改善整修 既有6處 除起消防署如期 如遲 如預算完工 亦起消防署盤點高雄及南台灣地區之老舊消防辦公廳舍數量及情形 並提出書面報告文 曾經會改善提案第86案"},{"start":4300.799,"end":4312.187,"text":"建築研究所綠能建設向下業務費減略1,000萬元為納稅保等三案提案第87案建築研究所綠能建設貢獎10%為成金會等三案提案第88案"},{"start":4313.636,"end":4335.865,"text":"條例目負稅屬 城鄉建設凍結5% 委員吳佩玉等三案提案 第89案城鄉建設凍結100萬元 委員邱振軍等三案提案 第90案至第92案 委員關務署及所屬的提案 第90案基礎建設環境鄉下業務費減略100萬元 委員賴思寶等三案提案 第91案輸入建設凍結100萬元 委員邱振軍等三案提案 第92案"},{"start":4337.148,"end":4365.76,"text":"基礎建設環境凍結10%委員陳金輝等3案提案第93案是第95案為財政資訊中心之提案第93案事業建設減略1000萬元凍結100萬元委員邱振軍等3案提案第94案基礎建設環境向下優惠費減略800萬元委員賴思寶等3案提案第95案基礎建設環境凍結10%委員陳金輝等3案提案第96案再一步即所屬通案"},{"start":4368.229,"end":4384.368,"text":"處理建設動結一千萬元委員張雅玲等三年提案第97案教育部及所屬同案輪載培育處理經濟會建設動結一千萬元委員張雅玲等三年提案第98案之第110案為教育部之提案"},{"start":4385.803,"end":4400.117,"text":"數位建設檢列一千萬元凍結一千萬元委員邱振均等三案提案第99案基礎建設環境檢列15%凍結35%委員陳菁惠等三案提案第100案數位人才淬鍊凍結20%委員陳菁惠等三案提案第101案縮短5G偏鄉數位落差凍結10%委員陳菁惠等三案提案第102案"},{"start":4407.063,"end":4432.241,"text":"人才培育促進就業建設檢列一千萬元凍結一千萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案第103案人才培育促進就業建設凍結百分之十五委員陳金輝等三人提案第104案人才培育促進就業建設凍結百分之十五委員陳玉珍等六人提案第105案人才培育促進就業建設凍結一百萬元委員范瑩等三人提案第106案人才培育促進就業建設凍結一百萬元委員范瑩等三人提案第107案城鄉建設凍結百"},{"start":4435.723,"end":4451.914,"text":"反之而實委員陳金輝等3案提案第108案陳江建設凍結1000萬元委員邱振軍等3案提案主決於第109案為平衡區域教育資源不均教育不應針對曹欽圖書館研議補助規劃並提出書面報告委員徐護鬼等3案提案第110案"},{"start":4453.758,"end":4474.493,"text":"主決議 要求應考量城鄉平衡應在資源相對不足地區建立示範教學教室﹐更彰顯特別預算要建立國家基礎建設的政策目的委員蕭一鳳等上任提案 第111至第117案為國民及學群教育所致提案 第111案基礎建設環境凍結15%委員陳金輝等上任提案"},{"start":4474.853,"end":4503.409,"text":"第112案 基礎建設環境凍結10%委員盧鑫一等三人提案第113案 數位人才策略凍結20%委員陳金輝等三人提案第114案 人才培育促進就業建設檢定1000萬元凍結1000萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案第115案 人才培育促進就業建設凍結20%委員陳金輝等三人提案第116案 人才培育促進就業建設凍結10%委員盧鑫一等三人提案第117案 凍結2000萬元委員何新淳等三人提案第118案"},{"start":4504.97,"end":4526.717,"text":"國際交易廣播電台動體25%委員陳金輝等上任提案第119案之餘第128案為交易經濟部之提案第119案綠能建設減略1000萬元委員賴思寶等上任提案第121案綠能建設動體20%委員蔓玉珍等上任提案第121案綠能建設凍結2000萬元委員陳昌明等上任提案第121案"},{"start":4528.117,"end":4536.544,"text":"產業數位轉型檢列9000萬元委員大司法等三任提案第123案產業數位轉型凍結50%委員盧仙怡等三任提案第124案產業數位轉型向下領航企業研發深耕計畫凍結20%委員蔓一貞等三任提案"},{"start":4546.271,"end":4557.037,"text":"Q25 主決議 要求經濟部委員考量中藥製造業之產業特殊性、民生國防之必要與下市電價費率審議會時提醒討論排除電價調漲範圍與避免對中藥製造業產生龐大成本負擔影響中藥醫療品質委員林軍憲等參與提案Q26 經濟部委員強化受補助財政法人與企業"},{"start":4570.243,"end":4585.649,"text":"是後續執行監督及研發成果之60以提升政府初知之應用性科學技術研究發展成果效益並說明具體改善辦法委員邱正軍等上任提案第127案主決議臺中相關水資源建設請經濟部加速辦理並如期完成"},{"start":4586.409,"end":4611.68,"text":"臺東地區公共用水穩定後續大安洗脊、大甲溪水源運用並請交談與農政單位溝通委員蔡錫昌等三人提案第128案請經濟部隊與小店家、小商家各項輔助計畫與專家輔導團輔導部分應以限地輔導為主要核心工作並針對不同商圈、線上或線下各商業服務業的益職性提出不同工作項目與指標以符合計畫內容為核心存等三人提案第129案至第133案為產業發展組織提案"},{"start":4615.842,"end":4638.457,"text":"第129案 產業發展署凍結20%委員麥一貞等3名提案第130案 產業發展署綠能建設凍結1千萬元委員何新存等3名提案第131案 數位建設凍結1千萬元委員邱振軍等3名提案第132案 數位建設向下拖廣數位公益服務、置業費減逆1500萬元委員賴思寶等3名提案第133案"},{"start":4642.881,"end":4670.756,"text":"令人建設鄉下優惠費減列3千萬元委員脈思寶等三人提案第134案令人建設鄉下優惠費減列1500萬元委員脈思寶等三人提案第135案令人建設凍結20%委員蔓依珍等三人提案第136案知貨財產局數位建設凍結5%委員黃雙雙等三人提案第137案自第150案為經濟部水域組織提案第137案"},{"start":4673.834,"end":4697.009,"text":"所以安全檢列移元、凍結移元委員邱正軍等3案提案。第138案所以發展凍結移元委員邱正軍等3案提案。第139案所以安全降價優惠費檢列1200萬元委員賴思寶等3案提案。第140案所以安全凍結板子委員盧先一等3案提案。第141案所以安全凍結移元委員陳昌明等3案提案。第142案所以安全"},{"start":4698.63,"end":4715.216,"text":"凍結200萬元委員蔡奇昌等3人提案第143案所有環境鄉下優惠費減去300萬元委員賴思寶等3人提案第144案所有環境鄉下全國水環境改善計畫凍結5000萬元委員邱振軍等3人提案第145案所有環境凍結3000萬元委員羅廷偉等3人提案第146案所有環境凍結200萬元委員蔡奇昌等3人提案第147案"},{"start":4725.94,"end":4745.726,"text":"主決議 經濟部水利署前瞻第5期特別預算案持續編列執行全國水環境改善計畫應加強補助計畫檢查機制及控管進度檢討前期執行成效並提出書面報告文陳昌明等商案提案第148案雙北淡水河水域長期有水質不佳、淤積等問題,卻會被包括在本計畫內"},{"start":4747.649,"end":4772.87,"text":"請水利署協助相關政策之統籌協調並益助支援協助淡水河水域與河岸之整體改善委員吳佩玉等三案提案第149案水利署應緊述檢討加一式湖子內排水放流口合一性並以後樁排除水分洪處設置固定式車水站並提出書面報告委員王美蕙等三案提案第50案"},{"start":4774.311,"end":4794.455,"text":"新北市、新店區、深耕區、石碇區、坪林區及屋外區上游許多無自來水、未接自來水要求經濟部水利署應付及主管水資源前者將簽署無自來水地區供給自來水相關改善計畫回歸114年公務預算之印為羅賓彩等三案提案第151到153案為"},{"start":4797.596,"end":4815.177,"text":"經濟部商業發展組織提案第151案 城鄉建設檢列千萬元凍結一千萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案第152案 公共服務據點整備凍結50%委員王宏威等三人提案第153案 城鄉建設凍結5%委員吳佩儀等三人提案第154案"},{"start":4818.373,"end":4829.324,"text":"中小級新創企業署推廣數位公益服務凍結20%委員盧仙玉等3人提案第155案中小級新創企業署城鄉建設凍結1000萬元委員邱振軍等3人提案第156案產業園區管理局凍結1000萬元委員邱振軍等3人提案第157案主決議"},{"start":4840.734,"end":4862.41,"text":"第5期特別預算編列317,700萬元系根據推動屏東園區、庫屋區及新建男子園區創新產業大樓等所需經費其中屏東園區、庫屋區經費為何?預期效率為何?預算會詳細說明編列情形請提出書面報告委員出行權等三案提案第158案地質調查及工業管理中心"},{"start":4864.994,"end":4877.452,"text":"動決10%委員黃昌山等三人提案第109案地質調查及礦業服務管理中心之綠能建設動決1000萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案第160至163案委員能源署之提案第160案"},{"start":4879.509,"end":4898.643,"text":"綠能建設向下優惠費減利500萬元委員賴思寶等三案提案第161案綠能建設凍結30%委員盧瑄英等三案提案第162案綠能建設凍結1000萬元委員邱振軍等三案提案第163案綠能建設向下二氧化碳捕捉及封存試驗計畫凍結1000萬元委員邱振軍等三案提案第164案"},{"start":4902.426,"end":4927.121,"text":"第164案至178案為交通部之提案第164案交通部之軌道建設凍結25%委員蔓依堅等三人提案第165案軌道建設凍結1%委員蘇清泉等三人提案第166案軌道建設凍結1000萬人委員邱振軍等三人提案第167案軌道建設向下都市推動捷運凍結15%委員陳金輝等三人提案第168案"},{"start":4928.622,"end":4952.848,"text":"事業建設斷絕15%委員陳金輝等三案提案第169案陳襄建設斷絕5%委員陳金輝等三案提案主決議第170案請行政院早日核定改善停車問題計畫第三次修正計畫並請交通部針對新北市三重區停車需求研擬具體補助方案並提出書面報告委員李坤誠等三案提案第171案建請交通部加速審議相關計畫以補助"},{"start":4956.607,"end":4985.789,"text":"加速審議台南市鐵路立體化延伸至永康地區計畫與補助經費並提出書面報告為民意景等三案提案第172案目前台南鐵路地下化延伸至永康仍在持續審議當中建請主管機關協助地方政府緊速完成可行性評估與立台南永康新市善化等地區發展為民軍縣等三案提案第173案請教安部針對改善停車問題之投標場上如何符合前述規範提出書面報告為泛銀等三案提案"},{"start":4986.529,"end":5011.323,"text":"第174案 請交通部針對提升道路品質之投標,廠商如何符合前述規範,提出疏遠報告,委員放映等上的提案第175案 請交通部將臺南捷運深綠線優先納入兆元投資平台,以利於深綠線後發先至跟上南科地區發展之進度,委員過關等上的提案第176案 請交通部以補助地方推動區域遊樂品牌,需將臺中霧峰納入以準備臺中旅遊"},{"start":5011.783,"end":5030.603,"text":"在相關景點支援委員何欣淳等三案提案第177案建景交通部應景處落實海線雙軌化綜合規劃報告作業以及於前瞻特別預算介入之前執行大台東地區山海線鐵路雙軌高架化建置計畫之規劃作業委員蔡其昌等三案提案第178案部分縣市的鄉鎮"},{"start":5032.425,"end":5048.719,"text":"發展蓬勃,商業活動也活絡起來,同時面臨停車位不足之問題,要求將市內商業活動活絡至鄉鎮也納入改善停車位問題計畫之評估範圍委員 等三人提案。第179案中央基降署之數位建設凍結15%委員 等三人提案。第180至第190案為觀光署之提案。第180案城鄉建設減利5000萬元凍結1000萬元委員 等三人提案。第181案"},{"start":5059.068,"end":5082.876,"text":"陳江建設凍結百分之百委員王宏威等三案提案第182案觀光署及所屬凍結百分之二十委員陳清惠等三案提案第183案推動觀光升級凍結百分之二十委員盧仙怡等三案提案第184案推動觀光升級凍結百分之二十委員麥一貞等三案提案第185案推動觀光升級凍結百分之十五委員羅明才等三案提案第186案"},{"start":5084.912,"end":5086.598,"text":"推動官方升級凍結10%委員陳毓貞等6人提案第187案"},{"start":5091.857,"end":5119.54,"text":"城鄉建設凍結5%委員吳佩玉等三案提案第188案城鄉建設凍結300萬元委員蔡錫昌等三案提案第189案推動觀光升級凍結100萬元委員王美惠等三案提案主決議第190案請觀光署於預算通過後一個月內提出前瞻基礎建設計畫結束後協助各地方政府推動轉型升級建設報告委員王美惠等三案提案第191案運輸研究所凍結20%委員陳金輝等三案提案第192案"},{"start":5121.766,"end":5136.517,"text":"運輸研究所之推動數位供應服務凍結20%委員麥義正等三案提案第193案至第204案為公務局及所屬之提案第193案綠能建設凍結20%委員陳經會等三案提案第194案數位建設凍結20%委員陳經會等三案提案第195案環境建設凍結20%委員陳經會等三案提案第196案"},{"start":5146.687,"end":5153.549,"text":"令人建設凍結25%委員陳金輝等30提案第197案陳江建設凍結15%委員陳金輝等30提案第198案陳江建設鄉下改善停車問題檢略1億元凍結5000萬元委員邱振軍等30提案第199案改善停車問題凍結100%委員王宏威等30提案第200案"},{"start":5166.454,"end":5178.303,"text":"改善停車問題 凍結30%委員 人民財等3案提案 第201案改善停車問題 凍結1%委員 蘇興權等3案提案 第202案改善停車問題 凍結5%委員 盧仙英等3案提案 第203案提升大陸品質 凍結5%委員 盧仙英等3案提案 第204案提升大陸品質 凍結1000萬元委員 邱振軍等3案提案 第205案至212案為鐵道集集所屬之提案 第205案數位建設凍結50%委員 陳清惠等3案提案"},{"start":5196.176,"end":5215.928,"text":"第206案 推廣數位供應服務凍結20%委員 蔓一貞等3人提案 第207案 國家建設凍結1000萬元委員 邱振軍等3人提案 第208案 國家建設向下鐵路立體化及通勤提訴之加一縣市鐵路高架化延伸計畫凍結30%委員 林倩琦等3人提案 第209案"},{"start":5217.95,"end":5226.897,"text":"都市鐵道建設向下都市推動捷運凍結10%為承經會等3年提案 第210案城鄉建設凍結30%為承經會等3年提案 第211案城鄉建設向下設備及投資凍結3000萬元為亂世保等3年提案 第212案"},{"start":5235.303,"end":5253.619,"text":"陳江建設向下推工觀光升級凍結5%委員吳佩玉等三人提案 第213案杭崁局凍結15%委員陳金輝等三人提案 第214至216案為達旦布置提案 第214案陳江建設凍結20%委員陳金輝等三人提案 第215案陳江建設凍結10%委員麥玉珍等三人提案 第216案陳江建設"},{"start":5260.151,"end":5279.092,"text":"主決議 勞動部之城鄉建設其中平均限職人艇、內政補償工程預計策略和預算孔為於詳細說明編列情形請要求提出書面報告委員書信權等三項提案第217案至222案委員農業部主管之提案"},{"start":5279.833,"end":5303.606,"text":"第217案 數位建設向下基礎建設環境檢測10%凍結20%文曾經會等三人提案第218案 數位建設向下推廣數位公益服務凍結10%文曾經會等三人提案第219案 主決議 要求主管機關應對走私科加強查緝並協助我國牟利洋職戶數人登記以確保消費者及我國移民權益文明鏡縣等三人提案 第222案"},{"start":5306.94,"end":5331.797,"text":"1、9農業部以專案補助增益稀疏海口之努力復育經費每盆五千元以利振興努力養殖業必以三個月內提出書面報告委員林軍憲等四人提案第221案農業部針對越來如何提升農業保險覆蓋率及農退儲金比例以及持續推動農村土地重劃及地方創生提出書面報告委員郭國仁等三人提案第221案農業部應針對老舊漁港提出改善騎乘計畫"},{"start":5333.118,"end":5357.212,"text":"潮州農業國際化包裝廠後續建設計畫並提出書面報告委員徐富葛等三人提案 第223案農村發展及水土保質署之水環境建設凍結5000萬元委員邱振軍等三人提案 第224案凍植物防疫檢疫署之車廣數位工業服務凍結50%委員陳益臻等三人提案 第225案至227案委員農田水利署之提案 第225案"},{"start":5359.133,"end":5381.496,"text":"水環境凍結20%委員陳金輝等三人提案 第226案水環境建設凍結5000萬元委員邱振均等三人提案 第217案主決議建起農業部農田水利署合併補助計畫時 優先合併天災災區閉綠保障農民權益委員蘇巧二等四人提案 第228案這240案為衛生福利部主管之提案"},{"start":5383.936,"end":5403.631,"text":"第228案 衛政福利部主管凍結10%委員王宏威等30提案第229案 城鄉建設凍結1000萬元委員蔡其昌等30提案第230案 城鄉建設巷下公共服務據點凍結10%委員黃昌昌等30提案第231案 公共服務據點整備凍結10%委員孟毓臻等30提案第232案 城鄉建設凍結5%委員吳佩儀等30提案第233案 主決議"},{"start":5411.157,"end":5430.829,"text":"請衛生福利部就非機構形態安置,包括出養前安置,一併加強相關措施,並落實仿製機制與對辦理安置機構之督導與保障兒童權益委員會1.3提案 案請衛生福利部以各縣市推動無家者制安置方案,並將其納入各縣市社福考核,以使衛福據點之形態各將完善。案"},{"start":5433.57,"end":5458.781,"text":"率先邁入超高齡化社會65歲以上人口於一般這時原請衛生福利部另行規劃相關據點服務方案以促進北市長者之生意健康委員會議等三項提案第236案要求衛生福利部諮詢同志性別團體研議與社區宣導長照計畫時納入更多同志貧困議題並提出書面報告委員範圍等三項提案第237案請衛生福利部以補助地方推動有生意兒"},{"start":5459.381,"end":5485.354,"text":"空間建設應考量實際需要需求未來人口成長趨勢帶動城鄉平衡作為補助重要依據為核心權等上的提案第238案要求衛生福利不延逸無二手菸傷害政策才能減少吸菸者對於未吸菸者的健康傷害為輸心權等上的提案第239案要求衛生福利不應加速指定菸品質審查程序減少指定菸品質走勢問題讓指定菸品的菸碎與健康福利捐"},{"start":5485.974,"end":5509.765,"text":"率先補足部分健保經費之缺口文書信選等三項提案第240案要求衛福部因優先考量有破棄需求實施需求的鄉鎮所提出的零至二歲兒童社區公共托育計畫提高預算執行率與因應少子化物的問題文協議份等三項提案第241至243案為食品化物管理所之提案第241案食品安全建設"},{"start":5512.106,"end":5532.037,"text":"凍結12%實穩、陳情會等3年提案。（第242案石平安全建設凍結10%實穩、蓋世保等3年提案。（第243案主決議要求主管機關應對進口科加強查核並將邊境車業利提高至51%以確保消費者及我國居民權益。（第244案第246案為國民健康組織提案。（第244案"},{"start":5536.314,"end":5556.596,"text":"城鄉建設檢列100萬元委員蔡奇昌等3名提案 第245案城鄉建設凍結5%委員吳佩義等3名提案 第246案城鄉建設鄉下地方衛生機關及社區活動中心凍結10%委員出行權等3名提案 第247案社會及家庭署"},{"start":5557.932,"end":5586.064,"text":"懲案建設向下公共服務據點整備動決版自委員吳佩儀等三人提案第248案因應少子化、友善育兒空間建設動決100萬元委員張雅琳等三人提案第249案環境部之主決議台南市政務提出二輪溪河道廢棄物清理實施計畫第二期委員要求環境部以三個月內針對旅遊編列經費來源及協助清理提出書面報告委員林俊憲等三人提案第250案"},{"start":5588.052,"end":5611.432,"text":"環境部企業併簽署之令人建設凍結5%委員謝毓鳳等三人提案第251案主決議推動低碳永續社區認證及建構任意性交易計畫要求應考量成相平衡應在支援相對不足地區建立示範點委員謝毓鳳等三人提案第252案無法不足管制通案"},{"start":5613.357,"end":5626.472,"text":"陳江建設凍結1000萬元委員張雅寧等3人提案第253案文化部主管之通案陳江建設向下文化生活圈建設凍結30%委員林建吉等4人提案第254案"},{"start":5628.319,"end":5646.892,"text":"文化部主管之通案,所有建設凍結一千萬元,委員張雅玲等三人提案,第255案至257案為文化部提案,第255案所有建設凍結一百萬元,委員范瑩等三人提案,第256案城鄉建設凍結七百萬元,委員蔡奇昌等三人提案,第257案為主決議,各工有空間"},{"start":5647.953,"end":5662.886,"text":"因與文化生活圈建設相結合,善用空間打造無遺形之藝文據點,讓文化生活圈進入社宅,達成培育藝文人口之目標為無配意等三人提案。第258案至260案為文化資產局之提案。第258案,城鄉建設凍結10%為黃山山等三人提案。第259案,城鄉建設凍結"},{"start":5667.99,"end":5695.048,"text":"10.委員蔓依珍等3人提案第260案 主決議建井文化部文化資產局研擬科學技術再現俯臣歷史風華並與國立台灣歷史博物館、國立台灣文學館、國立台灣台南生活美學館等場館策劃相關之俯臣建成300年科技再造歷史現場展覽委員林依景等3人提案第261案國立台灣歷史博物館向下發展數月文創普及高畫質服務凍結100萬元委員范瑩等3人提案第262案"},{"start":5697.029,"end":5706.536,"text":"國立臺灣歷史博物館發展諸位文創普及高畫質服務凍結50萬元委員李毅錦等商人提案 第263案 至269案為輸入發展布置提案 第263案 基礎建設環境之業會檢列200萬元委員賴思寶等商人提案 第264案"},{"start":5713.46,"end":5732.374,"text":"5G基礎公共建設 簡列2億6千9百85萬1千元為王宏輝等3人提案 第265案5G基礎公共建設 簡列5千萬元凍結10%為陳一貞等3人提案 第266案5G基礎公共建設之業務費 簡列250萬元為賴世保等3人提案 第267案5G基礎公共建設向下強補助費 簡列15億元為賴世保等3人提案 第268案"},{"start":5741.201,"end":5745.606,"text":"五居基礎公共建設凍結10%委員陳金鵲等三案提案第269案強化偏鄉地區行動寬頻網路數位韌性與禁用之基礎建設設置計畫凍結10%委員蘇津群等三案提案第270案自動安全基礎"},{"start":5760.191,"end":5767.801,"text":"之基礎建設環境檢略3000萬元為內資保等3T案（第271案（自動安全署之數位建設斷絕50%為承經費等3T案（第72案（至274案（數位產業署"},{"start":5775.191,"end":5783.495,"text":"產業數位產業組織提案 第272案產業數位轉型支業務費減略3000萬元為耐斯堡等三人提案 第273案產業數位轉型支獎補助費減略1500萬元為耐斯堡等三人提案 第274案數位建設動機2000萬元為核心存等三人提案 第275至280案為國家科學及技術委員會之提案 第275案"},{"start":5799.284,"end":5807.468,"text":"建構開放政府及智慧城鄉服務之智慧地震防災預警服務計畫斷絕15%委員陳靜蕙等上任提案第276案基礎建設環境斷絕20%委員蔓依珍等上任提案第277案基礎建設環境斷絕15%委員陳靜蕙等上任提案第278案基礎建設"},{"start":5816.753,"end":5832.776,"text":"向下 社會科技大南方產業生態系統通貨方案 凍結100萬元委員張雅玲等三任提案 第279案5G基礎公共建設凍結100萬元委員則張雅玲等三任提案 第280案人才培育促進就業建設凍結100萬元委員張雅玲等三任提案 宣讀完畢好"},{"start":5846.089,"end":5872.626,"text":"那我們委員人數足了,我們是不是先確定剛剛念的議事錄有沒有問題?對上次的會議議事錄,有沒有問題?沒問題齁?沒問題我們就確定齁好,那我們現在開始要進行協商齁那我們協商我們10點10分開始下去協商齁然後我們協商是這樣,從通案開始,然後各個部會那該部會如果協商完畢的話就可以齁,就可以離席去"},{"start":5874.452,"end":5882.901,"text":"要留一位聽協商結果,其他可以回去辦公我們10點時分再協商,我們到下面協商"},{"start":5925.621,"end":5950.051,"text":"我們開始協商我們從通案開始我們主案進行了來第一案第一案是主決議的這個是主計的主計處沒問題吧這個我們有建議修正文字委員是說現場討論我們建議修正是李坤城委員提案你要修成怎麼樣修的東西在哪裡這個等一下"},{"start":5951.98,"end":5973.386,"text":"我建議行政部門你若不夠厲害立委們提的東西你們要動不動修正文字除了立委罵你們否則的話不要去動不動修正文字那感覺好像你們高一點那個感覺氣氛很壞的不然改文字對不對你可以就可以也不行就不行不要去改文字啦"},{"start":5974.068,"end":5999.16,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是說因為它這裡面有說要裁員規劃及事權重新調整方案嘛因為如果因為事權的部分是屬於內政部不是在我們這裡啦我們是把說我們能做到的部分修改這樣子那是要求主基礎規劃對啦來那你改成怎樣呢因為事權是內政部的事齁我看一下齁對要準備好如果要改要"},{"start":6002.92,"end":6022.109,"text":"主席總書要提一個報告可以了可以了我再次拜託行政部門你們沒有比較厲害你們都是你們底下的人助理水準不見得比立委還高不要動不動亂改文字"},{"start":6026.749,"end":6035.134,"text":"謝謝賴委員那建議你要聽到來 第2案呢是就是是國發會主管的嘛 對不對對 這個部分是條例主管機關是國發會所以是把僱傾國發會對 協同組聚總署協同組聚總署所以書記的問題"},{"start":6042.958,"end":6043.078,"text":"委員提案"},{"start":6067.009,"end":6068.81,"text":"財政部遵照辦理財政部遵照辦理第5案"},{"start":6082.534,"end":6088.159,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次聯席會議"},{"start":6106.332,"end":6131.078,"text":"每個單位要聽到在第幾案的時候趕快自己補上來這樣我們有效率第7案是中研院的陳經理委員的提案已經改動5%然後有修改內容報告改成3個月然後凍結5%書面報告沒錯吧我們要修正後通過這樣是嗎"},{"start":6135.051,"end":6141.814,"text":"每一件修正後通過第8案改組決議第9案改組決議第10案改組決議修正後通過"},{"start":6161.569,"end":6176.622,"text":"11案是11案沒有協商的11案是數位建設的部分曾經問委員的提案來中委員有什麼意見陳委員有在嗎好來請說一下他這個是要減劣15%凍結15%他減15%凍15%然後兩個月內提專案報告"},{"start":6182.878,"end":6212.027,"text":"拿麥克風說一下齁各位委員報告就是這個案子在意見裡面就是在國衛院和環境部他們合作的這個工作呢他們訂定了認為我們要更好的空氣品質標準那但是中研院的這個工作呢是去發展預報的技術協助施政上面去達到那個標準所以這兩個工作是並不衝突的那在過去這段時間我們不斷的去努力改善空氣品質預報的精準我到底沒聽到"},{"start":6213.187,"end":6215.629,"text":"那這樣子齁 如果還沒有溝通完了趕快給你們先齁"},{"start":6239.363,"end":6267.25,"text":"那天是委員辦公室的主任在是陳委員有沒有同意陳經理委員的意見呢有溝通完溝通完溝通完意見怎麼樣沒有溝通完但還沒簽名沒關係他意見怎麼樣我們相信你們不會騙我們意見怎麼樣對有當公室同意意見是什麼同意改什麼同意改組決議改組決議好那就好那就照陳委員的意見了好文字有修正嘛那你們等下把改過的趕快簽名拿過來來的是"},{"start":6268.848,"end":6271.47,"text":"拜託我再講一遍你們改那麼多次這個立委的字盡量少改啦"},{"start":6294.656,"end":6296.877,"text":"第12案改組11案對保留2等陳委員簽名就可以了你們都溝通好了嗎來第12案是改組決議10案是你們的嗎那13案"},{"start":6322.814,"end":6324.014,"text":"國立公共博物院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":6345.174,"end":6360.9,"text":"中委院剩1案而已喔,你們要留一下,等一下還有1案喔要留人喔,你們還有1個案子沒過,11案喔來,16案是國立故宮博物院這一個,這個案子有跟委員同意過了嗎?16案"},{"start":6366.901,"end":6388.235,"text":"改書面然後凍結百分之五凍結百分之五改書面喔對OK好 有簽名嗎等一下喔 我們這裡習慣喔這是沒差啦 因為講書面報告而已啦我們就統一凍結都是十八啦跟主席報告啦 好不好沒差 你書面報告來就好了百分之九十一可以用 沒差啦好"},{"start":6390.907,"end":6391.567,"text":"陳金蕙是15對阿"},{"start":6418.959,"end":6423.082,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6438.62,"end":6438.82,"text":"董事長"},{"start":6450.25,"end":6454.352,"text":"18案也10% 18案有溝通 邱委員有簽字 19案委員同意改組決議18案是怎麼樣 同意改組決議 委員簽名"},{"start":6476.516,"end":6477.057,"text":"18案改組決議19案改組決議20案"},{"start":6491.771,"end":6493.271,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期"},{"start":6519.13,"end":6519.19,"text":"22案呢?"},{"start":6550.315,"end":6555.458,"text":"本來委員同意動20萬,那委員也簽字了。主席要一個頂下"},{"start":6565.362,"end":6566.242,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6590.262,"end":6592.803,"text":"趕快喔還沒有跟委員溝通現在還有時間趕快"},{"start":6625.376,"end":6642.322,"text":"有嗎?有溝通了是嗎?那16案已經動10%加書面是不是?那個故供16案已經動10%加書面了那就沒有你們的案子了16案已經改好了好現在國發會從這個24案24案已經改組決議了吧對24改組決議沒問題了好25呢?25也改組決議"},{"start":6655.384,"end":6656.903,"text":"來,26"},{"start":6657.182,"end":6685.199,"text":"二十六那個我們跟委員委員的意思是他可以併其他委員的提案併其他一起動就對了對併案凍結就對了那後面還有沒有那那個等一下二十六等一下好來好二十七改組決議嘛二十六等一下二十六開後期那如果沒有動呢沒有動就沒有動就沒有了對好那二十六案等一下二十六案等一下我們先看二十七二十七沒問題嘛改組決議二十八"},{"start":6689.497,"end":6714.274,"text":"28我的案子啦我們的主任太宅心冷厚啦這個我不要動機啦我就給你三百萬啦你本9億多三百萬可以吧三百萬這個跟這個是基礎建設的數位建設可以啦這可以啦"},{"start":6715.546,"end":6716.427,"text":"推廣數位公益服務費向下業務費3.3百萬29案改組決議"},{"start":6744.777,"end":6763.631,"text":"30案改組決議30案已經改組決議了是嗎對有嗎凍結5%凍結5%這是人才培育的部分喔凍結5%凍結5%等一下我們看有沒有別案子因為下一案也有我們凍結就統一10%啦我們看一下下面有沒有一起案子放在一起啦書面報告來了好那這個30案是凍10%對然後書面報告然後"},{"start":6773.633,"end":6773.653,"text":"改組決議"},{"start":6780.549,"end":6786.553,"text":"三十二案三十二是有關雙語的嗎?剛好有解釋過嗎?就是說指引力偏低是為什麼?講一下因為是原來要設立法人那當時立法院沒有過結果就造成五億一千"},{"start":6809.368,"end":6835.373,"text":"5億1670萬就預算無法動資那所以你們的資訊率是多少呢如果扣除那個沒有扣除的部分資訊率99%99%齁那這個應該就沒什麼那個跟那個跟三十案是雙語是一樣的啦跟那次法委員這個一樣的委員那個三十你的三十他們已經同意了三兩千萬了三兩千萬了好那三十案就不用動決動決已經我想動決不要了就三就好了啦"},{"start":6836.226,"end":6836.487,"text":"動結不要刪"},{"start":6844.834,"end":6869.771,"text":"委員 我要3 我要3 這個我要3那委員 那是不是3少一點啊2500少啦2500會少一億2700 一億兩千萬嘛他一億2700咧對啊 500就好了他一億2700前面這個人才凍結的部分已經有他那個人才已經培育就不容易了你還不給他錢前面是不是要凍10%那個人才培育全部都凍10%的前面有 一樣的 同一項有"},{"start":6870.922,"end":6874.425,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":6893.979,"end":6899.383,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":6921.067,"end":6921.127,"text":"主席"},{"start":6939.411,"end":6939.431,"text":"主決議"},{"start":6967.059,"end":6967.579,"text":"30案改組決議32案改組決議"},{"start":6995.939,"end":6999.182,"text":"剪裂2000萬科目自己調整剪裂2000萬科目自己調整"},{"start":7021.42,"end":7024.262,"text":"其他人的凍結還是凍結喔因為雙語其實很多人有意見的凍結還是凍結喔那這樣子的話我看一下"},{"start":7046.34,"end":7054.666,"text":"其他也有凍結啊 因為本來就有凍結的啊對對 到3月7啦齁 我們統一處理好不好 這樣統一處理開的好不好我們這樣講 那1億2750萬 我們減了1億2000萬啦對對對 減了10% 減裂了10%減1200萬 對1億2000多萬齁 減1200就減了10%啦對 然後再凍結10%好 凍結10% 就是全部這些你們就先報告啦凍結後面再寫就好"},{"start":7076.312,"end":7085.941,"text":"全部都一樣啦就凍結10%改書面報告33凍結10%就統一啦有凍結的他們就都凍結10%加書面就全部合起來凍結10%這個項目然後那個簡略一億兩千萬一千兩百萬是科目一億兩千萬簡略"},{"start":7102.028,"end":7107.131,"text":"統一動詞帕提出來委員提出來委員給他知道之後你們後面就可以用了嘛對不對我們檢列意見你們要檢討一下這個雙語的部分那委員給你們勉勵要特別記起來喔好那就到37了嘛不是嗎到3837也是38人才可以到37嗎"},{"start":7127.742,"end":7148.475,"text":"那38是什麼?37是改組決議本來如果改組決議就是改組決議這不用改了這不用講了動的就改成統一合起來是10%課目自行調整然後再簡略沒有沒有10%有的談好改組決議就改組決議這沒問題我看哪些是談好的"},{"start":7160.469,"end":7165.47,"text":"好,30案動10%加書面,31案改組決議,32案動10%加書面,33案簡列1200萬科目自行調整,34案改組決議,35案動10%加書面,36案動10%加書面,37改組決議,這樣懂了嗎?"},{"start":7190.17,"end":7201.46,"text":"寫在一起同意啦沒有沒有就寫在一起就同一棟然後你們自己寫報告給各位委員讓他們去調整嘛反正他是調整的來38來38是有關什麼也是說有"},{"start":7205.455,"end":7227.942,"text":"對38是改那個主決議修正文字修正文字後改主決議39也是修正文字改主決議這就不一樣科目了照原投資的喔40也是修正文字改主決議40修正後改主決議41也是改主決議對不對沒有41不是我們的喔是對不起園民會的好那各位都結束了嗎對對對結束了OK好那可以了喔留一位下來好留一位好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7233.481,"end":7239.717,"text":"委員會的已經都簽了唷好太好了請坐吳立法委員發言"},{"start":7244.721,"end":7271.535,"text":"好 謝謝主席原民會這邊就是關於這個多元產業計畫其實它的執行率是不太好的但是它在第5期獲得更高的經費反而是執行率很好也受部落歡迎的部落營造計畫它反倒是在第5期經費很少那如同服務周邊據點"},{"start":7272.876,"end":7273.937,"text":"《中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫》"},{"start":7287.95,"end":7300.768,"text":"說明一下副主委首先跟委員報告就是關於我們推動原住民主多元產業發展2.0計畫第4期的部分其實到11月底我們執行率已經達到86.17"},{"start":7310.588,"end":7333.906,"text":"委員提到推動原住民多元產業發展計畫第5期比我們的原住民部落營造更多的經濟部落我跟委員說明有關於推動原住民多元產業發展計畫到第5期的時候我們開始著重在整個營運跟通路產業補助的部分產業升級的補助部分那它前面"},{"start":7334.867,"end":7334.887,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":7355.699,"end":7365.025,"text":"部落周邊環境改善調整8000多萬支應整體部落環境改善公共預算有編列移基計畫大概115年編列4.7億用這個針對部落環境改善委員關心部落環境會不會因為前瞻第5期編列不足影響整個環境改善部落我們嚴明會在公共預算有支持以上就說明 謝謝"},{"start":7383.557,"end":7396.123,"text":"好,可以喔,好,那這個原民會的41案、42案、43案都有跟提案委員溝通過,都改為主決議,好,謝謝,謝謝原民會喔,客委會喔來,客委會有44、45、46、47、48喔來,44案,來客委會喔,好"},{"start":7409.308,"end":7410.048,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7429.814,"end":7430.354,"text":"46案沒有動聽了改組決議"},{"start":7457.884,"end":7466.413,"text":"五十案 主決議 也改主決議了好 五十一案 賴大委員的您的案子 賴社保委員的 核案三減三千萬 二清"},{"start":7469.304,"end":7470.565,"text":"講補助就是給本院"},{"start":7489.803,"end":7503.232,"text":"國家原子能科技研究院的補助款因為以前我們是它的隸屬單位現在不是隸屬單位我們是法人機構我們要對董事會上面有董事會附著所以用這個名詞跟以前的所以7800萬全部給他們給我們給你們對全部給我們願理"},{"start":7506.954,"end":7526.96,"text":"那以前已經執行4年這是第5年的計畫前面已經執行過4年在原則能底下前4年也是原則能底下歷數所以他就直接編預算現在原則能你現在核能的現在整個政府就不要核能了還要再搞這個東西我覺得都有點redundant的"},{"start":7528.251,"end":7531.414,"text":"委員 這是跟電網韌性比較有關係啦 電網韌性 電力系統的運轉比較有關係啦"},{"start":7545.086,"end":7567.156,"text":"你們都已經不要核能了,不要核電,你還變這麼多錢,七千八百萬,讓你們立法院呢?報告委員,我們第6條,核安會沒有這個職長,但是我們國研院都有這個職長什麼職長?第6條就是國研院的職長國研院喔?你們這個錢要做什麼?繼續發展核能,核能都不要了繼續發展核能嗎?不是不是,我們的職長齁"},{"start":7568.976,"end":7586.989,"text":"我們的職網就是新能源跟系統整合新能源跟系統整合這個很奇怪 等一下喔因為你們是原子能科技研究院原子能專門是Atomic Energy然後你要研究其他的什麼工變就經過來了"},{"start":7590.311,"end":7613.418,"text":"內政委員有意見請說主席各位委員因為這個我看這個是在綠能建設向下有獎補助那我認為綠能也是未來的一個趨勢也是全球在做的我認為如果項目是在綠能下獎補助也是做綠能工作我是希望委員們能夠左右支持不要看到原能或核能就刪我認為要看它的若是綠能向下的部分"},{"start":7614.798,"end":7636.183,"text":"那你們到底做了什麼?我們主要是電網韌性電網韌性,那不是台電的工作?不是不是,我們是從那時候研發我們做研發我們得到世界百分之百你們來溝通的話,我只把弄清楚啦我就少一個零啦,就三百萬啦我們同意就不要再這樣"},{"start":7639.324,"end":7652.507,"text":"主席我建議如果是綠能或是電網認証的經費還是希望我們能夠多一點剪裂是要讓他們有更多要做什麼那7800剪裂300萬是很少啦他們也同意了不要再說不能剪300萬是極限啦喔喔300萬好啦他同意沒有沒有沒有7800剪裂300萬可以嗎"},{"start":7662.35,"end":7679.424,"text":"主席我沒有報告沒有你如果不同意我們就去表決不同意我就表決3000萬我表決3000萬好我就表決可以啦可以啦300萬可以啦綠營建設向下的章葛珠貝7800萬減列300萬第51案可以啦300萬可以啦不能接受嗎"},{"start":7684.688,"end":7687.41,"text":"50案結束了嗎?他們怎麼跑掉了?"},{"start":7714.076,"end":7714.356,"text":"50案改組決議53案"},{"start":7730.446,"end":7757.108,"text":"五十三案陳委員同意凍結10%報告五十三案凍結10%報告五十四案遵照辦理這個五十三案併經同意這個併經沒有沒有有修正過有修正過文字有修正的對對文字有修正的併經同意那個修掉了修掉了修正後凍結10%的修正都通過了五十四案遵照辦理"},{"start":7758.649,"end":7764.298,"text":"沒有了工作還有嗎兩個案子謝謝主委那這個回去了內政部來"},{"start":7771.687,"end":7777.392,"text":"50案已經改為主決,文字修正後通過56案改為主決,文字修正後通過57案改為主決,文字修正後通過"},{"start":7789.301,"end":7808.713,"text":"五十八案本來就主結,沒問題吧,遵照辦理,好,遵照辦理,好,台江道路,來,五十九案有文字修正,是不是改動一百萬,凍結一百萬,對,好,這溝通過了,好,六十案五十九有什麼出現凍一百萬"},{"start":7809.65,"end":7814.458,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":7823.494,"end":7823.654,"text":"改組決議改組決議"},{"start":7847.259,"end":7875.08,"text":"這是同一個城鄉建設的嗎?不一樣喔都是城鄉建設的喔?對來同意動500萬改書面報告齁是同意62案62案也是動500萬改書面報告對好今天是同一個向下的吧同一個向下就是併案凍結了對對是併案齁所以是兩個從對對對後面還有後面不是只有兩個後面還有來後面還有63案齁也是"},{"start":7876.227,"end":7877.367,"text":"已經同意你們的人來跟我們不顧一波刪100萬別動不動不講組決議"},{"start":7905.393,"end":7906.013,"text":"剪裂100萬科目諮詢調整"},{"start":7920.444,"end":7920.624,"text":"主席"},{"start":7943.684,"end":7945.425,"text":"提升道路品質向下業務費檢列100萬"},{"start":7970.647,"end":7971.308,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7989.889,"end":7999.434,"text":"簡略100萬,科目執行條約務費簡略100萬,68案69到69到69、70、71、72,這個好像都是我看一樣的,都是水環境的都一樣,全部改組決議,這幾案都是組決議,到71案,71案組決議,73案文字修正,它本來就組決議,文字修正後辦理"},{"start":8018.303,"end":8040.991,"text":"74案 原來就是主決議文字修正就向財政委員會提出書面報告75案也是文字修正 原來主決議大家看文字修正 七幾案地方政府溝通協調一個月內向財政委員會提出書面報告76案也是改組決議76案是警政署下面的"},{"start":8047.133,"end":8049.654,"text":"76案文字修正後改組決議77案改組決議"},{"start":8064.31,"end":8066.033,"text":"78 改組決議 79 改組決議"},{"start":8078.127,"end":8103.13,"text":"80案改組決議文字修正後改組決議警政署81案遵照辦理陳經費委員遵照辦理82案消防署的文字修正改組決議文字修正改組決議地方消防廳設83案也是文字修正改組決議文字修正改組決議警政署的"},{"start":8103.41,"end":8105.031,"text":"86案是檢列案,這是建築局所的"},{"start":8124.312,"end":8126.053,"text":"建築研究所 綠燃建設向下檢列業務費200萬 科目自行調整"},{"start":8148.942,"end":8150.443,"text":"八十八案財政部"},{"start":8176.045,"end":8182.41,"text":"副稅屬改組決議文字修正後改組決議文字修正後改組決議副稅屬改組決議副稅屬改組決議副稅屬改組決議副稅屬改組決議"},{"start":8203.577,"end":8214.025,"text":"90案凍結時報加順便報告好 謝謝賴委員91案是改組決議的好 92案也是改組決議的93案改組決議文字修正後改組決議來 94案也是賴委員賴委員是這個資訊中心的賴委員"},{"start":8225.752,"end":8226.953,"text":"剪列100萬剪列100萬剪列100萬剪列100萬"},{"start":8255.552,"end":8256.714,"text":"還是...還是...還是...還是...還是...還是...還是...還是...還是...還是...還是...還是...還是..."},{"start":8271.395,"end":8274.156,"text":"第94案 基礎建設環境下列有優惠一億零八"},{"start":8290.521,"end":8314.115,"text":"剪裂80剪裂80,科目進行調整,有意義可以用,也很夠財政軍中的90案是改組決議的嗎?96案也是改組決議財政部都溝通很好,謝謝教育部的,有沒有列個表?"},{"start":8319.35,"end":8341.422,"text":"有一個表格嗎部長好來教育部的第96案開始96案是改組決議97案也是改組決議98案也是改成組決議99案也是改成組決議"},{"start":8347.852,"end":8352.035,"text":"101案也是改組決議有文字修正了然後102案102案也是改組決議有文字修正了103案這個是凍結有陳委員的簽名嗎有簽名有簽名有拜會委員了我說的是103"},{"start":8377.421,"end":8377.521,"text":"104 案 改組決議"},{"start":8406.567,"end":8406.907,"text":"105 改組決議106 改組決議107 改組決議108 改組決議109 改組決議"},{"start":8434.693,"end":8436.653,"text":"109案配合辦理110案配合辦理111案改組決議112案改組決議113案"},{"start":8462.202,"end":8476.165,"text":"改動5%加書面喔這個是跟剛剛一樣的嗎?不一樣的不一樣因為這是學前教育署剛剛講說這個統一就動10%啦統一動10%統一動10%啊你們來那個你們寫個書面包括決動好113喔這是剛剛113114改組決議喔115改組決議喔116也是改組決議117"},{"start":8491.817,"end":8492.438,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8507.605,"end":8522.007,"text":"一一八案也是改成組決議一一九案簡略齁一一九案是簡略這不是你們的這是經濟不好那交易部都沒有了齁OK好交易部留一位就下來齁好謝謝部長謝謝部長謝謝部長好經濟部齁來連次長齁嗯"},{"start":8541.969,"end":8565.16,"text":"經濟部老實講對於前瞻計畫當初的那個概念是蔡英文那時候當總統的時候我們所了解是找了彭威南他是要用小型工程為主幫助地方建設創造內需結果一出來之後大家搶經濟部搶了多少錢呢"},{"start":8566.848,"end":8584.961,"text":"亂搶一通啊 經濟部這個錢搶太多了你們這個是技術師 以前是技術處技術處 原來就編了預算裡面就編200多億去年也編200多億 就今天要執行的明年還增加240幾億到240幾億 結果你們錢債還跟人家搶錢債的錢應該是給地方政府的叫經濟部搶幾百億啊"},{"start":8593.167,"end":8614.089,"text":"所以我覺得我已經對你們很客氣了老實講經濟部不應該拿那麼多錢就錢站來講不應該拿那麼多錢整個大的概念這樣子綠能建設你全部都給工研院工研院有夠急工研院的錢就已經有兩百多億了你們還給他錢所以我已經很客氣了就三億一千萬"},{"start":8617.542,"end":8629.635,"text":"主席19、120跟1、2、1、3個是同一個向下還是一起處理啊是啊沒關係先看這個檢列多少它後面是組決議嘛120、121都是組決議然後是前面120、121都是改組決議所以我們現在針對119檢列1000萬的部分看這個那個我們次長能不能溝通這是哪一個公園院的"},{"start":8638.203,"end":8664.164,"text":"是邱署長的技術師師長他這個項目主要是因為我們減碳的這種科技發展比較慢所以我們用碳直接用抓的那這樣的一個減碳的速度的話速度會比較快而且我們可以把它轉換成為一些石化的原料這樣的話就可以減少石油的使用了所以這種新的科技的話我是覺得這個是不是我們可以多你們就是不是"},{"start":8665.285,"end":8677.398,"text":"我剛剛就在前面講的經濟部實在不應該搶這個錢但是你要做我們就尊重但是不需要這麼多錢啦兩億一千萬我就把後面一千萬拿掉可以開始給你們兩億嗎還是給很多人那個"},{"start":8680.581,"end":8681.282,"text":"剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯"},{"start":8705.845,"end":8708.547,"text":"施行委員沒有這麼多 都給公務員這麼多錢 沒有意義而且還沒有決定 我們沒有預算通過以前你給他多少錢的"},{"start":8725.242,"end":8747.229,"text":"我是說這是延續性那因為這個是新的技術我表達一下工程院一直是台灣科技領先的一個關鍵那這個碳捕捉的這個技術是新的技術的研發又是繼續性的經費那我想如果他們自己同意願意讓你三五百你就這樣可以啦好不好邱卿姐他這個不是"},{"start":8748.149,"end":8760.227,"text":"他現在是要發展新的技術這個他補充的技術越發展越成功對將來台灣的節能減碳會有很大的幫助啦發展我們同意啦但不需要這麼多錢啦問題在這裡啦我給他看了項目"},{"start":8763.612,"end":8764.253,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8780.706,"end":8781.026,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8798.954,"end":8799.174,"text":"剪列600萬"},{"start":8827.318,"end":8843.243,"text":"好那綠能建設向下的兩億千萬就是減略六百萬科目自行調整這就很重要對不對因為你們就會用那個別的那個請說科目自行調整好不好有講了好這個120該組決議的"},{"start":8850.387,"end":8852.27,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":8862.302,"end":8881.671,"text":"主席,你是給工研院喔?工研院啊!這個他給工研院,還要給廠商啊!都給大企業啊!大企業需要你給他錢嗎?不需要啊!你說變了八億多給他呢?總共二十六億啊!兩顆棋才撿九千萬而已啊!對不對?這我一定要撿!這個你不要撿我們就不要去!"},{"start":8890.202,"end":8912.816,"text":"我説明一下啦,就是說我先講科技的部分啦,這有些科技主要是研發一些,雖然我們台灣的半導體是很強,沒有錯可是我們現在半導體還是有幾個是現在台灣還是要繼續強化的部分特別是那個液質封裝這部分,現在是那種高階的晶片,現在是最缺的像現在的那種COAS的那種液質封裝,現在我們還是要投入一些科技,確保我們在半導體"},{"start":8913.336,"end":8913.616,"text":"中央政府前瞻"},{"start":8943.696,"end":8944.277,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8962.452,"end":8970.18,"text":"各位要清楚啊你仔細看一下他編了27億26億9千多萬等於是27億然後給供應就8億多所以給廠商將近20億喔給廠商是19億左右"},{"start":8980.091,"end":8980.291,"text":"國際企業我們把它吸引過來"},{"start":9003.94,"end":9004.12,"text":"委員長 具體有實力嗎"},{"start":9031.94,"end":9057.217,"text":"所以我們還補助這些大企業喔我講說他山之石可以工作啦台積電去日本也受到日本政府幾百億日幣的補貼上千億日幣的補貼去美國也是收到那麼多的補貼他在台灣設廠他在台灣設廠有設廠嗎?有設廠阿森嘛就是在新北市那裏設廠很久以前嗎?沒有沒有最近最近所以解說你們這個前幾年開始在那裏設廠"},{"start":9060.759,"end":9060.999,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9084.688,"end":9085.089,"text":"一年大概是12億"},{"start":9106.132,"end":9122.687,"text":"他把AI最新的技術落地在台灣然後設立研發中心從此訓練人才然後跟我們國內的半導體廠商去做合作那所以說用這樣的方式一直維持我們半導體的競爭力"},{"start":9124.108,"end":9127.169,"text":"美國去是增加他們的就業嘛當然美國的就業,人家來我們這邊設廠也會增加我們的就業啊"},{"start":9154.094,"end":9166.388,"text":"而且我們稍後跟你們報告一下他在拿來的技術都是全世界最先進的技術喔全世界大家都在搶這些所以我們一年給那個2億是ASMO一年給NVIDIA12億"},{"start":9169.011,"end":9170.072,"text":"等一下等一下我要講一下補助的場上是哪些啊"},{"start":9194.83,"end":9213.343,"text":"美光、AMD、NVIDIA各位這一廠商需要你們的兩億十二億嗎?今天他的台灣投資看上你們這個嗎?不是啊!不要顛倒是非啊!不要亂講字!聽我講啊!不要顛倒是非!主要是他的技術、他的先進的技術弱點!讓我講話!讓我講話!"},{"start":9218.587,"end":9238.29,"text":"今天他來就是要來台灣嘛因為台灣的位置台灣的電便宜台灣的供應鏈強不是因為你們的2億12億啦笑死人你們2億12億就補助倒貼啊不稀罕啊人家是要台灣的要台灣的真的台灣的整個environment對不對台灣的供應鏈"},{"start":9240.7,"end":9241.401,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設"},{"start":9257.193,"end":9258.174,"text":"今天不處理我就堅持喔"},{"start":9285.951,"end":9286.412,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9305.835,"end":9334.017,"text":"一千不行啦 開玩笑不然兩千好了啦兩千啦 兩千 七千可以啦七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦 七千可以啦"},{"start":9334.437,"end":9334.617,"text":"審議委員 審議委員"},{"start":9359.793,"end":9368.558,"text":"要到底往每一年補助他們這麼多產業數位轉型的這個減劣4千萬好了科目給你們調整還可以然後那個這是122案麻煩報告也送給我們到底你們做了什麼謝謝這樣以後要過預算就更容易一點123案是改組決議"},{"start":9389.266,"end":9389.546,"text":"一二三改組決議"},{"start":9413.561,"end":9435.749,"text":"前面那個案是都是產業數位轉型啦對 因為前面那個已經三、四千萬這個是不是就不要凍結民眾黨有在嗎沒有齁好不過還是把資料給我們好好好OK好那就不用了齁就不用凍結不過你們併我們併剛剛那個簡略的齁剛剛那個簡略四千萬的齁1、2、2啦併1、2、2啦"},{"start":9442.174,"end":9442.595,"text":"1、2、6 遵照辦理"},{"start":9457.076,"end":9469.464,"text":"一二八遵照辦理組決議一二九也是改組決議嘛內容有修正文字修正改組決議一三零是林俊憲委員的提案"},{"start":9473.427,"end":9473.647,"text":"委員同意改組決議"},{"start":9490.472,"end":9500.617,"text":"改組決議一三一改組決議一一三二一三二是簡略一三二是產發署下面也是數位建設七五萬十萬百萬兩億喔兩億簡略五百萬講好了這樣"},{"start":9506.98,"end":9513.824,"text":"有溝通有跟委員辦公室有溝通再請委員指導這個132案是你的案子那個是211、212啦212我們跟你們同意減500萬捏是減500萬來那個"},{"start":9529.404,"end":9537.152,"text":"數位建設向下的推廣數位供應服務檢列業務500萬科目自行調整133案是綠能建設下面的業務費"},{"start":9550.226,"end":9550.246,"text":"134案"},{"start":9570.934,"end":9579.263,"text":"一百三十萬台是一樣的嗎?不要!不要!這個一億多喔!這一億多喔!這個是一億三的喔!一億三減一百啦!一千五!二百啦!二百啦!"},{"start":9589.284,"end":9608.836,"text":"剪列200萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列2百萬剪列"},{"start":9610.057,"end":9614.942,"text":"134 跟 135 直接剪列了剪列兩百萬了好 這標準局的這樣 標準局好 各位進行調整好 接著是136"},{"start":9625.973,"end":9645.561,"text":"那個改組決議了136改組決議了齁是會財產局的齁稍等一下稍等一下那個標準局啊來來我們我們羅委員要說一下啦標準局先不要走啦羅委員請說一下標準檢驗局齁我在台中的標準檢驗局我已經反應很多次了你們前面的廣場啊是不是能夠頓氣木鱗一下"},{"start":9646.161,"end":9670.367,"text":"多次跟你們溝通都沒有回應我想這個部分我已經反映很多次了寶哥是不是可以支持我一下讓他們跟我們後續的溝通那您雖然已經有同意部分了但是是不是也幫我再多嘱咐一下好 你是指什麼他們的廣場幹嘛廣場幹嘛要講具體啊有 我們都有跟他們做出一個提案但是都沒有實際的回應"},{"start":9671.027,"end":9679.092,"text":"你的提議是什麼?那裡不是火車站我們跟委員辦公室了解一下好不好?委員的建議要去做了現在馬上去了解現在馬上了解你的案子等一下你趕快去了解現在馬上了解好來接著來 洛委員跟那個 洛委員馬上去溝通好"},{"start":9701.811,"end":9709.617,"text":"136改組決議現在是水利署的制裁局的137案所環境改組決議溫室修正改組決議溫室修正後改組決議138改組決議139已經同意檢列100萬元檢列100萬好來讓賴委員說一下"},{"start":9730.786,"end":9737.616,"text":"這個你有六千五百萬耶這麼多喔對啊六千五百萬喔一千兩百"},{"start":9745.592,"end":9764.606,"text":"這是媒體宣傳費嗎?不是 這個是來協助地方政府做一些相關的計畫跟評估的那因為地方政府在辦理這些事項的時候經費有不足的部分同意啦 求求你可以同意一百萬吧 可不可以改成一百萬所以安全 利用業務費向下 三減業務費一百萬客戶自行調整"},{"start":9774.267,"end":9782.674,"text":"委員同意文字修正改組決議委員同意文字修正改組決議委員同意文字修正改組決議委員同意文字修正改組決議"},{"start":9797.278,"end":9797.298,"text":"委員長"},{"start":9819.833,"end":9833.856,"text":"這跟剛剛的信職一樣,因為在做的一個工作不一樣,那剛剛各位委員有溝通啦,是...我可以改一下啦,3減100萬啦,好不好好,減100萬,科目自行調整143案的水域環境向下的業務費,減裂100萬,科目自行調整"},{"start":9847.575,"end":9861.108,"text":"委員同意文字修正改組決議要跟事保委員講情一下那個水利署我們是一毛錢都不敢刪你那些都美銀最貴你那些喝醉喝到腦袋瘦不一樣不一樣你弄錯啦這是宣傳不是治水預算啦"},{"start":9871.238,"end":9872.92,"text":"委員同意我們科目自行調整"},{"start":9887.159,"end":9896.866,"text":"145萬 羅委員的案子來簽名同意改組決議我目前是同意改組決議經過你們跟我們溝通但我還是要唸一下副分署長在當時跟我們溝通的時候有跟我講說都已經施作相關的工程都已經確定施作結果最後去查根本就沒做"},{"start":9916.602,"end":9932.604,"text":"對,上次羅遠諮詢我有聽到齁,就是你們漢西那一塊嘛,長福橋是自由路他們會後又來跟我做溝通,然後跟我講說已經確定做了結果我再請同仁再去查,就確定沒做,然後連你們國會聯絡人都知道沒做"},{"start":9933.385,"end":9947.841,"text":"好那所以我要再講的就是說事情要釐清事實真相要讓我們知道阿這個東西我會再繼續追現階段讓你改組決議但是後續我希望你們能夠達成目前現在你們答應我的要做到喔好不好"},{"start":9948.502,"end":9948.942,"text":"劉委員提的改組決議145萬"},{"start":9980.017,"end":9983.402,"text":"146案今天早上跟委員溝通後改組決議147案委員同意文字修正後改組決議148案也是文字修正後改組決議"},{"start":9993.576,"end":9994.737,"text":"149項遵照辦理150項遵照辦理151項修正文字改組決議"},{"start":10016.415,"end":10019.038,"text":"152案修正文字動20%提書面報告153案修正文字改總決議"},{"start":10040.917,"end":10067.82,"text":"修正文字改組決議委員通過了主席主席請說是不是那個就是凍結10%就好了我們就是一致性的10%嘛好不好那個中小企業署都沒商業發展署都沒意見啊他都沒意見啊表示沒有執行上的困難啊他說沒意見啊商業發展署沒意見啊因為他覺得他可以馬上寫成書面報告啦"},{"start":10069.514,"end":10069.854,"text":"153是改組決議154案也是改組決議"},{"start":10099.991,"end":10114.48,"text":"155案也是改組決議156案那個已經跟委員報告過也簽名了這產業園區管理局產業園區管理局中小新創署這個已經結束了嗎講完了也都跟委員報告過了1574也是產業園區管理局組決議遵照辦理158案"},{"start":10127.469,"end":10130.73,"text":"文字修正後改組決議158改組決議文字修正後改組決議159文字修正後改組決議賴世保委員您的簡略"},{"start":10157.501,"end":10157.521,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":10174.767,"end":10175.387,"text":"161案改組決議162案改組決議163案"},{"start":10204.637,"end":10204.657,"text":"陳次長"},{"start":10231.166,"end":10246.272,"text":"164案開始喔這個是交通部的哪個單位跟委員報告一下那個164、165、166、167其實都同一個科目我看這交通部的哪個是部分部喔軌道建設的喔都是軌道建設的我看一下喔"},{"start":10248.253,"end":10252.297,"text":"164案有簽名的凍結10%提出面報告165、166、167都是軌道建設的我看一下也是凍結10%166"},{"start":10265.162,"end":10292.142,"text":"164、165、166、167"},{"start":10292.262,"end":10292.522,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10312.13,"end":10329.613,"text":"但其他委員的他們都關心了你們都要寫在裡頭包括桃園各個地方的軌道建設彰化到處都有關心對都會寫在裡面好接著到167了嗎168了167軌道建設接著好168168的話已經委員同意168是哪個單位交通部的哪個單位"},{"start":10338.477,"end":10339.679,"text":"高工局主計統一報告168"},{"start":10347.743,"end":10349.044,"text":"董時帕提出報告委員同意"},{"start":10370.99,"end":10379.725,"text":"以坤城委員提的這是?1704公路局文智修正來主決這是哪個單位的?公路局的嗎?公路局的嗎?停車場公路局的嗎?對"},{"start":10384.063,"end":10385.784,"text":"公路局遵照辦理公路局遵照辦理"},{"start":10414.704,"end":10420.928,"text":"臺南捷運176是觀光署的捷道辦理177是鐵道局的捷道辦理178是公路局的捷道辦理179是主決議"},{"start":10442.244,"end":10444.987,"text":"改成10%寫書面報告179的這是氣象署的然後180的是觀光署的也是改成主決議文"},{"start":10461.866,"end":10462.586,"text":"181、184、186、187、188、189181是觀光署的"},{"start":10484.241,"end":10484.261,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":10501.372,"end":10502.313,"text":"181、184、186、186、187、188、188、189這些統一凍結10%書面報告"},{"start":10517.849,"end":10535.945,"text":"請說因為這邊是很多觀光的業者反映的我們編了前瞻預算1234期可是我們今年本來1200萬的觀光客現在一直下修都打6折主席應該也很關心金門的人數嘛所以我們是不是應該因為開放路客"},{"start":10536.365,"end":10537.867,"text":"今年可以達到多少人?今年應該可以多少人?"},{"start":10553.223,"end":10563.709,"text":"我們今年是會計大概750到800之間750萬到850萬打6票到今天11月到11月多少人呢?我們733733萬對所以應該750可以吧也跟委員報告一下所以你們部長因為本來還要說要1000萬對我們這是114年的預算114年我們還是1000萬114年希望有多少觀光站還是要1000萬"},{"start":10578.317,"end":10579.178,"text":"第一年的預算是114年預算"},{"start":10595.86,"end":10616.935,"text":"我們130年的預算都是在執行以前編的預算所以這一次有務實去做調整我們也需要能夠強化景區的發展今天的前瞻計畫有兩個也跟各位報告一下我們每一次拿到一個榮耀就是我們全球百大裡面"},{"start":10617.876,"end":10623.442,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":10641.518,"end":10662.024,"text":"提供100個點我們拿到7個點泰國拿到4個所以我們希望能夠強化我們景區的強度我們也希望能夠加大力道我們把4個小時的飛行圈跟12個小時的飛行圈跟4個小時到8個小時的飛行圈我們做一些調整結構"},{"start":10664.365,"end":10681.995,"text":"我們會加長力道委員很多指導我們也會強化一些所謂的不管是社群不管是旅展大的、小的、中的我們大概會五路齊發我想特別跟委員報告一下"},{"start":10682.795,"end":10683.396,"text":"請教一下,你們現在對於旅客還會補助他來這裡"},{"start":10703.292,"end":10725.622,"text":"旅客補助基本上只有一些團體跟航空公司合作譬如說我們在東南亞的部分或者是…東南亞有國家全部補助的嗎?它有分級哪幾個國家補助?譬如說越南、泰國跟菲律賓菲律賓是最低級的,就是最少的我們補助多少錢?一個人一天補助多少?沒有沒有,是看團"},{"start":10729.384,"end":10730.664,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期"},{"start":10757.23,"end":10783.256,"text":"我們大概不會超過1億啦不到1億你們那個入境的拉推那個好像效果不怎麼彰顯齁你們有沒有弄老半天那不是委員沒有針接啊對 補助老半天也沒有針接一個是出遊就是第一次來的你們要跟陸委會認真地反映啊你們現在達不到就是入客嘛入客來400萬你就達到了啊啊入客賣幾包"},{"start":10783.996,"end":10790.72,"text":"阿補助老半天嘛,沒人要來,這東西給予的啦,我們的官方利差7000多億的7000多億是台幣的,這東西就是因為這個政策的問題啊,這麼簡單的事情你們不反應"},{"start":10805.248,"end":10825.161,"text":"主席我要確定一下因為這裡面有我的提案因為它是跟幾個案子一起併案那它是凍結10%但是在我們的提案裡面有的是要求一個月要提出報告有的要三個月提出報告那你併案之後你到底是多久會提出報告"},{"start":10829.344,"end":10829.785,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10848.148,"end":10850.309,"text":"181、184、186、187、188、189並動10%提一個月內提書面報告以181案王委員的案子為主然後接著"},{"start":10862.486,"end":10862.706,"text":"主席"},{"start":10884.008,"end":10885.389,"text":"主席的意思希望觀光署認真去跟陸委會反映"},{"start":10914.328,"end":10915.55,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10930.286,"end":10933.65,"text":"183也是委員同意改組決議185也是委員同意改組決議"},{"start":10950.768,"end":10950.948,"text":"運援所"},{"start":10978.559,"end":10985.34,"text":"191、192我們是建議併案192案191曾經委員在現場192191我們已經溝通完了溝通好是多少呢?百分之二十是嗎?百分之十191跟192192以192為主"},{"start":11006.96,"end":11010.867,"text":"192是誰的他191在啊應該以191以191為主他人在啊"},{"start":11015.765,"end":11016.225,"text":"動結10% 請寫報告193組決議194動結10% 請3個月內寫個書面報告過來"},{"start":11043.683,"end":11057.799,"text":"195改組決議3個月書面報告196曾經會委員的196是我們部裡面的和公務局合起來的這個是委員同意文字修正凍結10%沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":11060.922,"end":11086.637,"text":"196是說要花1.2億的經費做這個氫燃料大客車示範運行計畫可是國發會對於交通部提報的這個計畫是有意見的對於交通部對不起國發會另外有透過這個審核意見報告給行政院所以行政院是還沒有核定的國發會也對這個計畫是有意見的那你現在還要把它拿來做大客車因為大客車的話"},{"start":11087.757,"end":11109.598,"text":"是同時承載很多人的安全嗎?所以如果行政院都還沒有核定為什麼我們可以先編預算?說明一下這個是哪個單位?運輸監理師運輸監理師報告那計畫本身的部分的話因為院裡面是很支持這個計畫的只是院裡面是非常支持這個計畫的"},{"start":11113.261,"end":11116.524,"text":"主席,我覺得如果國發會也有意見,行政院也還沒有合定的話,他可能沒有辦法代表行政院的立場吧?"},{"start":11137.021,"end":11148.965,"text":"市長這是什麼事?運輸是什麼事?是我們交通部交通部運輸監理師市長能說一下?我跟委員做一個報告有關氫燃料電池的電池搭客車的示範運行計畫其實是整個行政院建林轉型或節能減碳的旗艦計畫之一"},{"start":11164.309,"end":11185.596,"text":"因為相關的計畫正在我們提報了然後正在做修正的過程並不是說不支持所以我覺得委員是不是可以支持因為最近行政院也陸續由副院長召開相關的會議在討論所以我想我們會盡快把這樣的一個補充的意見送到行政院獲得行政院的支持"},{"start":11186.256,"end":11206.209,"text":"陳委員凍結這個也不表示不跟你們做要不要等到國八櫃給出一個很中勇的意見因為輕能車不是像純電動車可以在自己家裡充電它還要到特定的加輕站我們專門做電動車的伊隆馬斯克執行長他還說輕能車是非常的愚蠢"},{"start":11207.762,"end":11208.663,"text":"行政院合併了,我們再來"},{"start":11232.714,"end":11261.267,"text":"解凍這個預算好不好是是是委員這則建議是先先那個應該是凍結凍結對所以我其實跟委員報告我們除了依照立法院大院的決議以外我們也會依照行政院的核定結果因為這樣沒有核定我們也是就算預算編了也不會凍所以你們都還沒有核定我們現在就已經要編預算給你們了我們市長已經報告過了就是說因為我們整個大方向是確定的只是細節我們還在跟其他部會在做"},{"start":11261.887,"end":11270.689,"text":"主席,那我們是不是等他們合併再說?那不然就照你的這個提議嘛。他說凍結20%嘛。凍結20%啦。然後再提書面報告。等下等下等下。我們提書面報告的時候,一定會把那個行政院合併的情形告訴我們。沒有,這個陳委員講的是很有道理的。"},{"start":11284.193,"end":11303.288,"text":"你們行政院都沒有通過,你們邊這裡呼嚨大家,不行啦!這個錢可以先刪票嗎?多少錢?1.2億先刪票有什麼關係呢?行政院通過又再來就好了啊!行政院都沒有通過,你們先斬後座喔!不能這樣子啊!空白支票給你們啊!各位報告,因為這個相關的這個...打杯水混啦你們!"},{"start":11308.218,"end":11320.802,"text":"這相關的這個審核的一個程序或計畫提報的程序持續在進行中啊因為就是那樣的一個補充的意見行政院還沒核下來行政院沒有再比預算那個編題還要給我寫什麼寫什麼案子"},{"start":11323.323,"end":11336.888,"text":"所以我們盡快來協調但是你們一直都說你們要做電動車國家隊包括大客車包括公車為什麼現在又要做這個為了這個我們還要改很多都市規劃土地分區法規還有地點選擇上的環保法規"},{"start":11343.035,"end":11365.143,"text":"主席沒關係啦我具體建議啦這個東西也要尊重立法院啦也要尊重行政院啦等於行政院都沒有核定你敢搬來這裡啊你心目中有什麼痛苦這個案子保留啦等到你們行政院會通過以後我們再來處理這個案子啦時間來得及來得及啦來不及就拉倒"},{"start":11369.745,"end":11389.812,"text":"對 可是我們已經報在行政院 趕快合併加進來你們來辦預算嘛 可以嗎 辦預算也來得及吧沒有 那時候就沒辦法 因為這是一個整個特別預算不然我們在裡頭加幾個字好不好你們把文字改一下 說行政院通過以後改對嗎對 加進來主席會有報給行政院不代表財政會合併嗎加文字好不好 來 那個 你們現在改文字 等一下我們來討論"},{"start":11398.115,"end":11418.71,"text":"改文字齁 要行政院合併啦齁我們先談一下 你們這個改一下文字 要行政院合併吧等一下 等一下 等一下 我覺得這樣子不好啦 這樣欺負我們行政院 那個案子保留 行政院核准了 我們就處理 不會啦 不會啦處理一個預算要一起通過 不可能只為這一項保留"},{"start":11419.891,"end":11421.572,"text":"尊重賴委員啦尊重賴委員啦"},{"start":11446.186,"end":11447.666,"text":"委員同意改為凍結50%書面報告"},{"start":11472.993,"end":11475.756,"text":"委員同意改組決議文"},{"start":11489.051,"end":11491.773,"text":"202也是委員同意改組決議文203也是委員同意改組決議文204也是委員同意改組決議文205"},{"start":11504.309,"end":11507.592,"text":"205是鐵道局的改動捷10%書面報告206是委員同意改組決議文207、208、209這三個都是鐵道局的不同的科目我們這是建議併209案"},{"start":11529.449,"end":11530.23,"text":"並案凍結10%提書面報告"},{"start":11556.055,"end":11581.838,"text":"二一零、二一一、二一二是三個案子,我們建議併案等一下喔,二一一的委員有在線的,二一二的委員都在線,那他們表示一下意見二一零是已經凍結百分之十百打交通的二一零的是陳委員的,陳金鶴委員的那二一一的是賴世保委員對,因為賴委員建議三百萬嘛三百萬我們就想說三個案併案就減三百萬科目自行調整來我們尊重一下賴世保委員"},{"start":11583.98,"end":11586.241,"text":"剪裁剪裁剪裁剪裁剪裁剪"},{"start":11597.39,"end":11605.293,"text":"這是哪個大鐵道?台鐵做什麼?媒體宣導?你們做什麼?講一下你們做什麼?這個是我們南回有9個站做車站美學美學?對,他主要是做每個車站的功能是做美學?做藝術品?市一多做9個車站的藝術品嗎?整個市市長了解一下做什麼?"},{"start":11624.821,"end":11627.303,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":11636.383,"end":11659.42,"text":"包括周邊的那些環境的那些改善等而且是車站功能啦特別強調只是功能在處理的過程中當然要把就是說美學的帶進去啦不是在做車站美學不是整體在做車站美學啦不是只有做藝術裝置這種齁不是從哪一段到哪一段南回南回從屏東到台東啦對不對對對對"},{"start":11662.942,"end":11681.41,"text":"他有9個車站,他也特別特有9個車站,而且那天...有,這是持續下的...持續...以前9個站...做沒有做的站是不是?我想這個車站門...事實上對國家的一個形象是非常重要的,你一個車站就是國家的一個門面,就是一個地方的...這個不多啊..."},{"start":11685.239,"end":11704.634,"text":"市議多是不是來補充一下補充一下市議多這個整個計畫這個預算那個114年有事項計畫嗎114年這已經執行中的那個計畫我說第5這明年呢第5期明年是市議對這延續性的工程對以前一個車站都要花多少錢不一樣每個車站員他做的程度不一樣"},{"start":11706.255,"end":11707.016,"text":"剪接剪接剪接剪接"},{"start":11723.713,"end":11724.013,"text":"剪列400萬"},{"start":11751.104,"end":11751.404,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11771.685,"end":11782.929,"text":"動結208沒有你可以再講有有同意都是動結嘛這幾個都是一樣的軌道現在一起的嘛2102121212剛剛是病案沒有沒有我們還沒講到前面您建起委員在這裡了對動結百分之十208對病案動結214也改21"},{"start":11789.298,"end":11811.842,"text":"二一零就是百分之十啊 素面的二一零是併剛剛這個就是併案凍結啊併案3.4百萬沒有啦 凍結沒有喔凍結沒有說沒有 這些委員都有在現場欸陳慶輝也在 陳倩桔也在陳倩桔有同意二一三組 好吧 那就尊重委員對啦 沒關係啦 凍結反正是不多啦二一零我們就凍結10%對 10% 這幾個一樣的就凍結10%嘛208本來"},{"start":11817.549,"end":11825.035,"text":"對,208、209是凍結10%書面報告來來來,我來唸我來唸,來剛剛從207開始207軌道建設這是一樣的208、209都是併成委員的案,209案這些都是軌道建設下面的併案凍結10%這沒問題啦,加書面報告"},{"start":11848.089,"end":11851.691,"text":"以209為主這個剛練過一次的210就獨立的凍結18凍10%書面報告現在書面報告211是簡略400萬很少是要書面報告要要要要要要書面報告212"},{"start":11870.031,"end":11881.079,"text":"而又是另外的騰香的推廣這個這個吳佩玲的病啊病剛剛寫400萬這個案他寫在哪裡他有同意嗎你們沒有溝通啊"},{"start":11882.406,"end":11907.051,"text":"因為這是同一個科目啦那大家不用的話就是遵照辦理啦那什麼?那這個是?他沒有同意那是什麼?檢列喔?還是?因為他凍結5%阿他是凍結5%阿前面有凍結10%嘛對那就是平安凍結10%好凍結10%吳佩奕又沒有來對不對好平安210平安210裡頭對不對OK就是跟210一樣是同一個項目嘛4億多的這個嘛對就是說這個4億多的項目裡頭檢列400萬然後凍結10%好"},{"start":11913.854,"end":11919.845,"text":"2022 以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主以210為主"},{"start":11926.093,"end":11935.317,"text":"二一三有改組決議了吼二一四也改組決議吼文字修正吼好都可以了欸你們還有沒有過的嗎那個十二一那個給什麼當196是那個親戚的那個親人吼這個討論一下再討論一下可以留一個人看看說不定還是會過"},{"start":11954.924,"end":11979.553,"text":"改一下文字文字你一下嘛,那個新的部分來,勞動部的214改組決議有,遵照辦理改組決議的部分遵照辦理好,遵照辦理文字修正,215也是改組決議216"},{"start":11985.81,"end":12005.674,"text":"主決議遵照辦理好厲害 多主決議文字修正後改主決議這不是你們的 你們沒有啦 才上個案子 辛苦勞動部結束了 你沒有刪到就結束了因為寶哥沒有刪他的預算農業部"},{"start":12015.743,"end":12016.203,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12033.743,"end":12038.846,"text":"文字修正後的主決議221也是遵照辦理222也是遵照辦理223委員同意策案這是農村發展水土保持署"},{"start":12056.809,"end":12057.73,"text":"委員同意改組決議改組決議"},{"start":12076.624,"end":12077.785,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12098.301,"end":12103.465,"text":"你現在吃得比較好喔?比較胖?比以前我在胃環圍要運動要運動哇!34億欸!凍結10%來 衛福部喔凍結10%嘛"},{"start":12121.397,"end":12121.937,"text":"提出專案報告"},{"start":12142.728,"end":12142.748,"text":"2029 改組決議 2030 凍結5%"},{"start":12166.8,"end":12169.301,"text":"231是哪一個項目公共跟那個一樣的"},{"start":12190.931,"end":12191.311,"text":"改動協辦公室"},{"start":12202.576,"end":12206.038,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":12227.625,"end":12232.848,"text":"233的話是遵照辦理234也遵照辦理235文字修正有辦理234有嗎235才修正文字235文字左條加一個全國我知道齁全國齁修正辦"},{"start":12254.321,"end":12257.383,"text":"236 遵照辦理237 遵照辦理238 遵照辦理239 文字修正委員也同意241 改為凍結10%書面報告3個月的書面報告"},{"start":12283.126,"end":12286.768,"text":"這個案子是惡劣的這是食藥署有什麼沒的食藥署的無休眉"},{"start":12311.778,"end":12325.877,"text":"他趁我有打劫他照理講你怎麼可以用用這個錢來蓋你的實驗大樓事實上就蓋辦公大樓就是等於是啊狸貓換太子你知道嗎"},{"start":12327.038,"end":12349.128,"text":"你不能夠所有的前瞻計畫只有外匯部的食藥署敢用這筆錢蓋掉的辦公大樓然後旁邊加一兩個實驗室說我要去實驗室陪人家蓋實驗、蓋辦公大樓所以我趕快秘書啊所以非常可惡這個案子是非常可惡我那時候堅持不給過後來他死詞講後講後來砍了五千萬"},{"start":12352.109,"end":12361.493,"text":"看了五千萬我都要記得非常清楚所以這個案子我堅持按照我的規定凍結10%然後呢要轉換報告我們蓋了什麼樣做轉換報告如果不同意我們送優惠報決10%轉換報告10%轉換報告轉換報告十分不同意轉換"},{"start":12373.917,"end":12377.201,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":12389.074,"end":12403.159,"text":"假裝蓋實驗室,其實蓋無什麼沒來著?無秀沒,他的辦公大樓,Q零零碎碎這樣,蓋這幾個集?我知道啦!這個東西沒有道理啦!他不寫實驗報告不同意,專案報告不同意,我們就表決,這樣而已!我堅持,這個要專案報告!專案報告!來!專案報告!"},{"start":12412.823,"end":12418.426,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":12431.932,"end":12433.993,"text":"說明清楚說明清楚跟立法院來報告一下"},{"start":12458.683,"end":12462.598,"text":"243 文字修正 文字修正該組決議"},{"start":12466.938,"end":12478.261,"text":"244也是委員同意改組決議245也是同意改組決議文字修正組決議而且244也改為書面有文字修正有文字修正245、244也是改組決議246有改組決議文字修正247文字修正改組決議"},{"start":12492.965,"end":12493.225,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12522.339,"end":12540.104,"text":"有我決定是嗎?那就是專案報告嗎?我剛剛有跟我那邊報告過二二八是不是說我們同意啦動版是實啦然後書面報告啦我同意嗎?我是想請求你同意啦我們報告那個實驗到了齁那個做專案報告那這個書面報告齁好"},{"start":12549.967,"end":12551.528,"text":"二四九 尊照辦理改組決議二四九 尊照辦理"},{"start":12576.633,"end":12600.849,"text":"二五零跟委員報告因為謝委員我剛有通過電話那他說要現場解決然後那他目前我們也希望能夠再減少一點減5%現在是多少錢呢大概八百多萬八百多萬很少啊很多因為報告委員我們環境部的預算本來就很少阿這個好不容易我們爭取了一億七我們是希望是減列兩百萬"},{"start":12606.813,"end":12608.515,"text":"前列500啦!那個200萬太少了啦!500也太多了!300也太多了!300也太多了!300也太多了!"},{"start":12628.011,"end":12628.111,"text":"審議委員．審議委員"},{"start":12657.432,"end":12659.137,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期"},{"start":12666.459,"end":12690.797,"text":"剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告剪略就不用報告"},{"start":12691.517,"end":12710.925,"text":"二五一,來組決議,遵照辦理,等一下就組決議來,組決議,好,這樣沒有了,好,文化部,謝謝部長,好,文化部,全部都溝通好了,哇,大家都很努力溝通了,文化部,"},{"start":12714.45,"end":12731.796,"text":"市長252案是凍結一千萬的對委員已經同意改成主決議已經改主決議了嗎對張議長張議長林委員在線有嗎有了委員同意改主決議在這裡看一下開起來看一下來好253案林倩琪委員已經同意改主決議同意改主決議好"},{"start":12734.797,"end":12757.227,"text":"張海靈委員要發言這個部分基本上就是說因為我們這個國家文化記憶庫及數位博物館的應用上面我們現在要加強這個管控的進度針對執行落後的計畫要進行一些分析然後要結合跨單會的合作跟觸及文化資源那不過因為文化部都蠻有意願就是來配合所以我這邊是建議是可以併案動100萬這樣子你要併案動100萬就對了254嘛好我看一下哪一個案子有併的"},{"start":12762.079,"end":12765.068,"text":"你這個沒有拼案只有你這一案所以你就動一百萬"},{"start":12766.365,"end":12766.525,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12797.462,"end":12803.527,"text":"255委員同意改組決議256委員同意改組決議257委員同意改組決議258委員同意改組決議259委員同意改組決議"},{"start":12825.951,"end":12827.492,"text":"委員同意改組決議委員同意改組決議"},{"start":12850.014,"end":12850.034,"text":"263 委員謝謝"},{"start":12861.876,"end":12887.033,"text":"處發部部長來了副部長喔副部長來喔就刪一百萬啦 坑不自已調整嘛兩百萬變一百萬了喔就刪一百萬不要講了 坑不自已調啊你不要講了 不要講了沒有啦 他是他的喔 那是他的部分喔沒有沒有 他是他的部分喔我的是五千萬"},{"start":12888.494,"end":12890.278,"text":"我的就是五千萬他講的是基礎建設環境的"},{"start":12895.836,"end":12909.286,"text":"然後263的基礎建設環境是減略100萬那個264到2694都是5G基礎公共建設264到2694一樣的嗎?同一個案子已經有減略5000萬了,還有更多的嗎?這還有減略更多的吧?264這個減略2億多了,不然用這個會準好了報告委員,這個是對離島偏僻鄉很重要的建設最後一年"},{"start":12920.734,"end":12937.318,"text":"但是那個 因為那個 你們還沒有把那個 我已經 我在溝通有說過就那個行動訊號那個 青鳥行動小組那個事情還沒有告訴我們到底是怎麼回事啊你們一直補助業者 這補助業者的吧基地台基地台就有多弄幾個膝蓋就好了啊"},{"start":12942.6,"end":12942.74,"text":"主席"},{"start":12957.656,"end":12983.527,"text":"這個預算主要是對離島片鄉的基地台的補助那所以這個如果這個全部減劣不是不是我們沒關係王羲之過去幾個膝蓋就有了你們告訴我們那個為什麼可以監督民眾啊現在議案處理好不好不要混起來了剪第幾案就是264到226不不不議案議案好不好議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案議案"},{"start":12986.568,"end":12987.949,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13002.721,"end":13027.147,"text":"建設現在是到95%現在想拉到99%這是我們這一期的目的因為還是有5%尤其在離島平行所以你們趕快把那個調查報告給我們到底為什麼有錢趕快給我們這個就馬上不是我們是說那個調查報告為什麼可以監控百姓趕快給我們啊給我們這個補助中華電信那趕快告訴我們為什麼可以監控百姓啊你這個快27億然後你說叫人"},{"start":13029.147,"end":13029.387,"text":"中華電信有辦法給我們資料?"},{"start":13065.148,"end":13084.652,"text":"中華電信為什麼監控百姓?民眾有需求他監控百姓嗎?他那個不是叫監控百姓阿不然是什麼?他是一個民營的一個機構你都知道答案我怎麼都不知道是不是資料趕快給我們你怎麼都知道哪一家民營的?你們知道比較多我不是哪一家民營的阿我立法院民營的啦不是阿哪一家民營的做什麼事我跟你講齁"},{"start":13085.512,"end":13089.034,"text":"中華電信有公股、民股在裡面,我們要什麼資料,他們就給我們什麼資料這是有一個商業上的保密協定"},{"start":13115.852,"end":13135.382,"text":"中華電信它的營業上面它必須要保密這營業保密的話為什麼王毅川會知道什麼誰跟誰不一樣我們都不會知道我們政府跟他調資料他是一個上市公司我們不是要調資料我們要知道為什麼發生監控文明的事情不是要知道說這些什麼是誰為什麼你們給他錢你們給中華電信多少錢"},{"start":13141.278,"end":13141.619,"text":"中央電信事業"},{"start":13157.6,"end":13160.363,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":13176.321,"end":13180.884,"text":"這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?這怎麼回事?"},{"start":13196.093,"end":13212.109,"text":"所以那麼多錢還要給錢才能蓋偏鄉我們只有補助一半而已我們只有補助一半後面的維護費用他都要付因為這個都標籍政府不給他錢他就不做那不要給中華電信牌啊幹嘛給中華電信牌做偏鄉他完全賺不到錢這是加速加量的概念偏鄉第3期第4期已經給很多錢了勒"},{"start":13215.592,"end":13222.534,"text":"請問十三億要蓋幾座基地台?一座基地台我們補一百萬所以除一下十三億一百三十幾座什麼時候可以完整?我們在最後一年每年總共一年"},{"start":13245.322,"end":13252.703,"text":"因為偏鄉真的很難幹,因為地很大,人很少。因為偏鄉有很多民營的公司他是不願意做的,那我們是"},{"start":13272.987,"end":13273.207,"text":"王毅川議員"},{"start":13296.254,"end":13308.78,"text":"請審議"},{"start":13309.269,"end":13329.367,"text":"剪裂這些是一樣的嘛剪裂5千萬很少啦然後接著凍結石要提專案報告這包括各個內容就是要講出為什麼他們是怎麼監控百姓的提出專案報告那給你們用那個剪裂的部分能不能少對提專案報告剪裂的部分能不能少一點5千萬很少剛2億6耶我本來打算照2億6過了那我跟你講啦"},{"start":13329.847,"end":13330.368,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13344.744,"end":13344.764,"text":"審議委員．。．"},{"start":13374.902,"end":13387.676,"text":"這一樣的嗎?這一樣的嗎?最少的就是五千萬的啊,是吧?我跟你講啦,一個十五億的喔?如果這樣就送協商,兩億多送協商回去,送協商來咧?好啦,那就送協商還是直接檢列啦?"},{"start":13393.722,"end":13396.786,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":13417.487,"end":13418.408,"text":"主席主席歡迎歡迎"},{"start":13438.278,"end":13449.673,"text":"編鄉數位基礎公共建設非常重要我過去照顧花蓮現在照顧新竹縣都非常需要基礎公共建設希望大家動手一點"},{"start":13452.156,"end":13452.296,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13468.197,"end":13468.718,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13492.881,"end":13494.002,"text":"264跟265要送協商266是賴氏寶園的業務費這個是250萬很少啊250萬這個就簡列吧"},{"start":13504.258,"end":13505.699,"text":"規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定"},{"start":13535.823,"end":13543.793,"text":"剪略15億也可以啦,事實上,不然就直接剪略15億我才五千萬,我才剪略五千萬,我真的太客氣了剪1億啦"},{"start":13548.437,"end":13558.582,"text":"這264 265 267一樣先減1億就對了267先減1億好267先減1億吧減1億了不行不行其他面子我頒給你減5千就好了啦減1億了減5千啦來市長來不會不會絕對不會影響你們都不知道偏鄉的基地台對我們來講我重要啊我偏鄉出來我不知道啊所以你已經出來鬥雞"},{"start":13576.331,"end":13578.111,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第11屆第2次聯席會議"},{"start":13605.158,"end":13612.648,"text":"二六七減一億二六七減一億啊二六十、二六五送協商二六七減一億我們還會協商還會再減啊不用擔心還有兩億多可以減啊"},{"start":13618.553,"end":13619.614,"text":"讓我們檢討清楚,前面那兩項就是辯略"},{"start":13644.275,"end":13645.796,"text":"剪7千萬剪7千萬然後動其他的10%"},{"start":13659.682,"end":13662.544,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13682.316,"end":13682.456,"text":"中華電信"},{"start":13704.366,"end":13720.304,"text":"當領導建設...你...如果這樣子的話...部長...不然中華電信時代這麼高,13億全部砍掉對,然後請他電信公會給啦好,那就是檢驗中華電信的13億你要一半嘛,其他的我們都給請他待會去做"},{"start":13721.585,"end":13745.553,"text":"全都給他電信什麼台灣大還是什麼?喔!是喔!他不理你!你給他20億喔?你給他13億喔?他不理你耶!不是他不理你,你們三個案子並列,然後減6千好不好?然後要一個專案報告,專案報告那個要交通部去報告他們給錢的啊!我們給他們錢的啊!他給錢的!一起報告好不好?"},{"start":13750.294,"end":13750.855,"text":"給賴委員 這個賴委員不是我"},{"start":13769.912,"end":13798.038,"text":"這三、六千萬啦七千萬他剛說七千六千啦六千啦可以啦六千沒關係啦六千三個案可以啦可以啦可以啦六千案然後呢這個來做專案報告NCC跟教育部雖然不如NCC plus教育部三個做針對這個就是青鳥訊號行動那個怎麼監控百姓的那個行動針對內建制營報告可以嗎因為我們後面的民進黨團的長官在講的我尊重他"},{"start":13799.318,"end":13813.025,"text":"就是針對這個5月27號講的那件事情就是那個行動如何用行動訊號監控人民的這個事情要做一個專案報告專案報告這個一定要報告就是監控百姓這個"},{"start":13817.095,"end":13836.589,"text":"264、265、267等一下我們來講264、265、267主席啊我再強調一遍這三個案子簡略六千萬對、對、對然後做一個什麼題目的專案包括凍結10%凍結10%是做專案報告然後做專案報告報告塑化部、報告ACC、報告交通部"},{"start":13837.789,"end":13849.335,"text":"對來針對這個5月17號這個王玉川說的王玉川委員說的這個用行動訊號監控人民這件事情來做一個專案報告一定要有答案喔"},{"start":13850.52,"end":13868.08,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13868.22,"end":13888.278,"text":"不然我們本來檢列更多,本來檢列2億多15億,檢列很少,然後留到他如果在意這個我們凍結,不凍結可以,但是要作文報告,這樣,不凍結到時候他不來報告,有什麼拘束力,沒有啦,他沒有凍結,你沒凍結他哪有拘束力,他不跟你報告你又能怎樣勒"},{"start":13890.588,"end":13891.149,"text":"好啦好啦好啦"},{"start":13904.819,"end":13906.54,"text":"請三個單位,事務發部、交通部還有NCC來做專案報告"},{"start":13934.801,"end":13935.361,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13951.007,"end":13951.387,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13969.952,"end":13983.777,"text":"宋協商好了啊不然你看啊這個整體來講的話你們都沒有照顧到我們啊沒關係啊你整天說我們都覺得你照顧到多少人宋協商我也可以啊宋協商我們就兩年期間要看啊兩年期啊我們確定決定22、25、26、26、27都一樣啊都一樣可以啊宋協商我堅持我的案子15億要表決沒有啦對啊我們26、26、26、27"},{"start":13997.803,"end":14014.379,"text":"我知啦 我知啦 這個都是必須要去探討啦可是如果站在公務系統裡頭他們認為就是說他們其實是治安難行的話我們是不是應該跟他們稍微解套一下啦說明一下"},{"start":14019.534,"end":14029.626,"text":"已經說過多了今天已經搞這麼久了報告我們一定會報告阿是不是就不要凍結不要凍結你們不會來報告到時候我怎麼來卡你們凍結是為了讓你們來報告你們報告完就結凍了報告完就結凍了報告完同意以後結凍了"},{"start":14036.974,"end":14046.763,"text":"你們趕快叫中央電視把資料給我,到底怎麼監控百姓我到現在都搞不清楚了,趕快,這很重要,這是攸關的事不然我們配合你這個案子凍結5%啦,凍結5%可以啦,凍結5%來做報告,不然凍死吧"},{"start":14052.188,"end":14053.009,"text":"我再強調一遍"},{"start":14077.458,"end":14093.132,"text":"我以立法委員的身份我以小的立法委員的身份我以表達對於數學部被中華電信遲遲死死的給錢害你們用不到資料我對數學部很看不起"},{"start":14095.322,"end":14095.782,"text":"2621案是檢列100萬"},{"start":14128.005,"end":14144.429,"text":"267、268、268有改的嗎?有凍結,就是已經拜訪過是決定凍結4%是不是凍結10%齁?這個怎樣?這個案子怎麼樣?你們怎麼樣?溝通怎麼樣?這個一樣是基地台的部分一樣是261就好,那就併在前面了併到265那前面了齁?"},{"start":14149.011,"end":14149.591,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":14168.308,"end":14168.428,"text":"主席"},{"start":14196.988,"end":14204.916,"text":"第270案 簡略我看這是什麼 知識安全署施安你看 施安來監控百姓補助什麼 行政法人國務專研究院我跟委員報告過 就是刪減"},{"start":14220.802,"end":14240.151,"text":"剪列多少?300萬喔?300萬喔?那個單位是哪個單位啊?這個單位是什麼單位?有來嗎?這個是什麼?國家支通安全研究院是哪一個?誰啊?誰是?這是我們的行政法人這一位是?院長喔?我是治安署治安署,治安署為什麼人民的行動訊號會被監控?"},{"start":14241.957,"end":14242.117,"text":"二七億"},{"start":14270.564,"end":14274.006,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":14291.673,"end":14292.053,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14315.094,"end":14317.136,"text":"蘇貴發展部、蘇貴發展署274案275案謝謝蘇發部哪一個案子"},{"start":14331.837,"end":14337.203,"text":"主要是監聽百姓的事情沒解決你們就很麻煩這個也是針對不是針對中華電信部給你們報告你們要去想辦法你們給13億多還沒辦法"},{"start":14352.517,"end":14357.66,"text":"264、265、267減列6千萬那凍結5%提那個專案報告有關那個凍結這些也是一樣的凍結另外全部然後266266減列100萬然後265、268、269265、268、269凍結百分之"},{"start":14375.393,"end":14381.495,"text":"東建5%專案報告就這幾個剛剛那個專案報告就是報告三個部會來報告的報告為什麼監禁對東建5%專案以265萬為主265萬好可以懂了好謝謝要做精統一時的動作沒有科目自行調整特別不給你們謝謝找中華電信"},{"start":14406.794,"end":14407.154,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14428.583,"end":14430.104,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14448.717,"end":14452.9,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期財政、內政、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次聯席會議"},{"start":14474.396,"end":14497.628,"text":"統一改組決議196案這個還在嗎?公路局還在嗎?好像不在了這案是不討論的公路局交通部已經不在還要討論196不在了不在就不用討論了那就保留這保留就怎樣?送院會了?交通部沒有人在還要討論你們的案子不是說留一個人嗎?"},{"start":14498.922,"end":14525.482,"text":"有可能會過欸交通部沒有人好沒關係啊沒關係那就保留吧就保留好了那所有只有這個案子送院會欸交通部有人在嗎交通部確定不在嗎來來來趕快只有這個案子還要討論欸討論完可能會過欸來請坐只有剩下你們這個案子欸是不是只有剩這個案子沒有人過只有全部283只有剩這個案子欸如果沒有的話其他都過了欸就不用就協商就結束了"},{"start":14526.738,"end":14553.286,"text":"哪一處下來啊?還有嗎?還有第2個好,你們不在沒辦法,本來要幫你們爭取的啊沒有啊,你們要討論你們可以跟委員溝通一下啊,這個陳情有跟委員溝通了哦,是對世保委員不同意哦,OK,好好好,那就保留這個案子吧,好好,保留192案,謝謝啊,留兩個委員,那個賴世保勒?"},{"start":14557.523,"end":14558.484,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14588.031,"end":14604.341,"text":"蔣麗晶兩位代委員最認真我們是都沒有飯吃喔?我們開一間沒有便當喔?對啊!我們才會沒有便當喔?"},{"start":14617.857,"end":14634.908,"text":"委員都沒飯吃有有 外面有啦有便當喔有有便當喔你才厲害你厲害沒有沒有 我說我們兩個喝錯了還有我們賣碗的隊友現在崩了 現在崩了現在崩了 那就辛苦了你倒給什麼口味加一顆"},{"start":14648.067,"end":14650.788,"text":"宣讀協商結論第一案修正通過"},{"start":14676.964,"end":14684.752,"text":"修正通過照案通過照案通過照案通過改動決議提書面報告改組決議改組決議改組決議"},{"start":14698.666,"end":14707.994,"text":"第12案 改組決議第13案 改組決議第14案 改組決議第15案 改凍結10%提書面報告第16案 改凍結10%提書面報告第17案 改凍結10%提書面報告第18案 改組決議"},{"start":14716.542,"end":14743.183,"text":"第19案 改組決議第22案 改動10%提書面報告第21案 改組決議第22案 改組決議第23案 照案通過第24案 改組決議第25案 改組決議第26案 改組決議第27案 改組決議第28案 推廣數位公益服務支付費減業300萬元第29案 改組決議"},{"start":14745.339,"end":14759.942,"text":"第30、32、35、36並案凍結10%提書面報告以第35案為主第31改組決議第33案人才培育促進就業建設減略1200萬元科目自行調整第34案改組決議"},{"start":14770.95,"end":14779.802,"text":"第37案改組決議第38案修正通過第39案修正通過第40案修正通過"},{"start":14783.971,"end":14790.117,"text":"第41 改組決議第42 改組決議第43 改組決議第44 改組決議第45 改組決議第46 改組決議第47 改組決議第48 撤案第49 改組決議第50 改組決議"},{"start":14804.005,"end":14829.534,"text":"第51案簡略綠能建設向下獎補助費300萬元科目自行調整第52案照案通過第53案改凍結10%提書面報告第54案照案通過第55案改組決議第56案改組決議第57案改組決議第58案照案通過第59案改凍結100萬元提書面報告第60案改組決議"},{"start":14831.98,"end":14854.723,"text":"第61、62、63、64併案凍結五百萬元三個月內提書面報告以第61案為主第65案提升道路品質向下置業務費減列一百萬元科目自行調整第66案改組決議第67案改組決議第68案所以安全置業務費減列一百萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":14860.462,"end":14876.586,"text":"簡略百萬元科目自行調整第69 改組決議第70 改組決議第71 改組決議第72 改組決議第73 修正通過第70 修正通過第75 修正通過第76 改組決議第77 改組決議第78 改組決議第79 改組決議第80 改組決議第81 照案通過80"},{"start":14889.67,"end":14904.299,"text":"第82 改組決議第83 改組決議第84 改組決議第85 修正通過第86 綠能建設向下資業務費減略200萬元科目自行調整第87 改組決議第88 改組決議第89 改組決議"},{"start":14909.997,"end":14926.446,"text":"第90案改動決10%提書面報告第91案改組決議第92案改組決議第93案改組決議第94案基礎建設環境資優惠減月80萬元科目自行調整第95案改組決議第96案改組決議第97案改組決議"},{"start":14929.187,"end":14935.011,"text":"第98 改組決議第99 改組決議第100 改組決議第101 改組決議第102 改組決議第103 改凍結一百萬元一個月內提書面報告第104 改組決議第105 改組決議"},{"start":14945.999,"end":14951.481,"text":"第106案改組決議、第107案改組決議、第108案改組決議、第109案照案通過、第110案照案通過、111案改組決議、112案改組決議、113案改凍結10%提出面報告"},{"start":14962.924,"end":14965.387,"text":"114.改組決議115.改組決議116.改組決議117.改組決議118.改組決議119.綠能建設檢列600萬元科目自行調整120.改組決議121.改組決議"},{"start":14980.737,"end":14998.844,"text":"第122案並124案產業數字轉型檢驗4000萬元科目進行調整第123案改組決議第125案照案通過第116案照案通過第117案照案通過第128案照案通過第129案改組決議第130案改組決議第131案改組決議"},{"start":15010.203,"end":15015.93,"text":"第130案 推廣數位公益服務向以下業務費減約500萬元科目自行調整第133案 綠能建設之業務費減約100萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":15023.14,"end":15041.281,"text":"第134案、135案並按標準檢運局綠能建設向下優惠費檢列200萬元科目自行調整第136案改組決議、137案改組決議、138案改組決議、139案水與安全制優惠費檢列100萬元科目自行調整第140案改組決議"},{"start":15044.329,"end":15048.852,"text":"141 改組決議、142 改組決議、143 所與環境之優惠費減逆100萬元科目資金調整、144 改組決議、145 改組決議、146 改組決議、147 修正通過、148 修正通過、149 照案通過"},{"start":15065.014,"end":15074.827,"text":"一百五十案照案通過一百五十一案改組決議一百五十案改凍結10%提書面報告一百五十三案改組決議"},{"start":15076.687,"end":15097.876,"text":"一百五十四案改組決議一百五十五案改組決議一百五十六案改組決議一百五十七案照案通過一百五十八案改組決議一百五十九案改組決議一百六十案綠能建設向下約費減月一百萬元科目執行調整一百六十一案改組決議一百六十二案改組決議一百六十三案改組決議"},{"start":15099.136,"end":15100.138,"text":"第164、165、166、167並按凍結10%提出面報告以第164項為主"},{"start":15108.518,"end":15124.968,"text":"168案改凍結10%提書面報告169案改組決議170修正通過171案照案通過172案照案通過173案照案通過174案照案通過175案照案通過176案照案通過177案照案通過178案照案通過179案改凍結10%提書面報告180案改組決議"},{"start":15136.374,"end":15139.275,"text":"181、184、186、187、188、189並按凍結10%一個月內提書面報告以第181案為主第182案改組決議、183案改組決議、185案改組決議、190案修正通過"},{"start":15156.904,"end":15166.869,"text":"191及192案並按凍結10%提書面報告191案為主193案改組決議194案改凍結10%10%提書面報告195案改組決議196案保留送卷會處理197案改組決議198案改組決議199案改凍結50%提書面報告200案改組決議"},{"start":15184.699,"end":15187.34,"text":"201 改組決議202 改組決議203 改組決議204 改組決議205 改凍結10%提書面報告206 改組決議207 208 209 併案凍結10%提書面報告以第209 案為主"},{"start":15204.454,"end":15213.599,"text":"210及212案併案凍結10%提書面報告以210案為主211案城鄉建設向下推動觀光升級資設備及投資減月400萬元客戶資金調整213案改組決議214案改組決議215案改組決議216案照案通過217案改組決議218案改組決議219案照案通過220案修正通過"},{"start":15232.808,"end":15235.613,"text":"221案照案通過、222案照案通過、223案測案、224案改組決議、225案改組決議、226案測案"},{"start":15245.409,"end":15254.112,"text":"270 案照案通過228 案凍結10%提書面報告229 案改組決議230 及231 案併案凍結10%提書面報告以230 案為主232 案改組決議233 案照案通過234 案照案通過235 案修正通過"},{"start":15267.617,"end":15275.447,"text":"236 案照案通過237 案照案通過238 案照案通過239 案修正通過240 案照案通過241 案改凍結10%提書面報告3個月內提書面報告246 案凍結10%進行專案報告"},{"start":15286.221,"end":15291.122,"text":"第243案修正通過、244改組決議、245改組決議、246改組決議、247改組決議、248改組決議、249照案通過250案簡略350萬元客戶自行調整、251照案通過、252改組決議、253改組決議"},{"start":15312.221,"end":15315.273,"text":"案 改動結一百萬元三個月內提書面報告"},{"start":15318.618,"end":15323.722,"text":"255 改組決議、256 改組決議、257 修正通過、258 改組決議、259 改組決議、260 修正通過、261 改組決議、262 改組決議、263 基礎建設環境資優惠費減月一百萬元、264、265 及267 併案減月六千萬元"},{"start":15346.841,"end":15347.761,"text":"265、268、269併案凍結5%提專案報告以併經同意後時的凍資以265案為主266案減滅100萬元"},{"start":15369.705,"end":15374.308,"text":"272案 測案273案 測案274案 改組決議275案 改組決議276案 改組決議277案 改組決議278案 改組決議279案 改組決議280案 改組決議選舉完畢"},{"start":15433.212,"end":15433.973,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15438.756,"end":15439.898,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15463.695,"end":15493.097,"text":"來"},{"start":15493.735,"end":15515.815,"text":"以上協商決論,各位委員對協商決論有沒有異議?沒有,無異議,通過。本次會議做如下決議,審查中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算114年度,處照協商決論通過外,其部份已經照列,並在務之舉介,隨同協商決論簡略速調整。"},{"start":15519.371,"end":15535.604,"text":"3.稅出正式別預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議沒有沒有異議通過針對審查結果做如下決議行政院函請審議中央政府前瞻基礎建設"},{"start":15538.059,"end":15566.509,"text":"計畫第5期特別預算案 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算案。繼續審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心文化內容測驗院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案。首先我來介紹在場的委員,其次我們在介紹與會的官員。我們先介紹我們范雲委員。"},{"start":2072.625,"end":2098.323,"text":"接下來我們介紹文化部李遠部長政務次長李敬惠次長政務次長王詩思次長那其他同仁因為我們已經有來過了所以我就不一一介紹那我再來介紹是行政院主計總處公務預算處的專委李易柔專委行政院主計總處基金預算處王佩珊科長"},{"start":2107.293,"end":2112.797,"text":"現在進行預算案的審查,請議事人員宣讀預算書及提案內容。"},{"start":2117.705,"end":2144.824,"text":"文化部及所屬單位預算案計432案國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案計6案文化發展基金附屬單位預算案計6案行政法人國家表演藝術中心文化內容測試院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案計39案並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增或修正文字之主決議請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":2148.046,"end":2148.327,"text":"國立文化基金附"},{"start":2173.51,"end":2201.252,"text":"好,因為現在我們在場的委員人數不足,那我們先休息10分鐘沒有要派誰啦,其實今天大家都應該要到,好不好?那你也Call一下你們那個民進黨的委員嘛,好不好?我們都Call一下好不好?我們都聯絡一下那個委員,那我們反正休息10分鐘"},{"start":2203.154,"end":2207.941,"text":"每個委員都應該要到沒有特定哪一個委員今天應該審預算大家都要到好不好沒有特定是哪一個委員"},{"start":2319.718,"end":2320.061,"text":"單位預算案。"},{"start":2330.849,"end":2331.83,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":2368.331,"end":2369.333,"text":"已經吵到沒聲音了"},{"start":2401.249,"end":2403.353,"text":"國會聯絡人好認真喔他經驗豐富啊優秀優秀對對對"},{"start":2425.49,"end":2425.71,"text":"主席"},{"start":2448.274,"end":2448.494,"text":"主席"},{"start":2475.805,"end":2478.778,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":2510.206,"end":2511.687,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":2540.011,"end":2545.237,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":2563.312,"end":2566.955,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":2593.35,"end":2617.196,"text":"我代表他們講他們的,有委託了。簽名沒關係,他們應該等一下會來補簽。所以部長他們守護罷免權,沒有要守護你的預算。沒有沒有,他們的預算委託我守護。因為他們的文化部有信心,所以委託我一人就可以守護。我們委員比較介意的都有告訴我。"},{"start":2619.773,"end":2622.974,"text":"通常預算會不會通過什麼爭議法案,因為預算優先,內政不審預算在那邊搞選罷了"},{"start":2650.609,"end":2651.47,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":2671.27,"end":2696.565,"text":"我聽懂了,你們在爭論的我剛才聽不懂就是說你當年如果八萬票選上,你罷免票數要八萬零一票,這個才叫做罷免成功根本也不是選舉時間在投票嘛,投票率就不可能那麼高了,還要更高票你看我都用過"},{"start":2697.677,"end":2718.289,"text":"哇!對啊!你有沒有看過一個部長筆記這麼多的?超用功的!超用功的!你看他!如履薄冰這樣子!部長就是要苦肉計,叫你不要亂動,不要動太多!要爭取召委的同情心最重要!"},{"start":2719.445,"end":2720.585,"text":"快到10分鐘了嗎?"},{"start":2751.073,"end":2778.868,"text":"蔡英文化園區為什麼現在沒辦法借用給嘉義市政府?不是沒有作用,我們一直在談,不是沒有作用,我們還在修,修完之後取得建造,要怎麼做其實我們談過無數次下一步要跟縣政府談,要怎麼做,沒有不談,我們始終沒有面對面談"},{"start":2780.329,"end":2793.323,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":2804.631,"end":2820.948,"text":"接下來我們進行到今天我們文化部的預算審查委員大家應該都可以來的都到了我們先從文化部的稅務開始審查那稅務提案委員來葛如君委員"},{"start":2822.487,"end":2839.97,"text":"謝謝主席本席這邊第一案是有關文化部的稅入本席的提案是針對文化部藝術銀行藝術品的租金收入希望可以再增加500萬元藝術銀行成立的目的其實我們也理解是為了支持年輕的藝術家去推廣他們的作品"},{"start":2841.031,"end":2864.21,"text":"因此由文化部購入這些年輕藝術家的作品再租給合適的單位去做一些文化跟藝術的流動跟流通依據文化部所提供的資料102年到113年文化部購置3092件的作品累計作品流通達9579件次租賃的效率是有穩定成長這一點還是要予以肯定"},{"start":2865.23,"end":2886.379,"text":"但是113年到11月份為止累計租金的收入是354萬元但是文化部的資料也顯示截至11月為止有多達517件藝術品從來沒有流出過庫房去見世面被人家觀看或理解佔比將近20%這些其實都是藝術家的親血結晶"},{"start":2888.74,"end":2894.105,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":2909.801,"end":2938.86,"text":"站在這樣子藝術的愛好者來說一個設計系的老師的立場來說每一個作品都是創作者的心血結晶那政府既然買了就應該積極幫他們找尋而且要主動積極的找尋展示的機會可惜文化部自己提供的資料這兩年未租用藝術銀行作品的單位其實自己政府內部就有非常多包含勞動部、速發部這些單位都從來沒有去租用藝術銀行的作品"},{"start":2939.48,"end":2956.148,"text":"那我們就覺得很奇怪啦,勞動部可以花300萬幫部長去辦演唱會,速發部一年光辦公室租金就5000多萬,去租另一些文化部構置的藝術作品來展出,去流通我們的創作能量,不行嗎?"},{"start":2957.268,"end":2976.779,"text":"而且我必須要說我們也研究了藝術銀行藝術品的租金只有購入價格的百分之零點四千分之四換言之五千塊買進的藝術品月租金只要二十塊二十塊啦年租金只要兩百四十元和高官的演唱會相比這一點錢根本就不算什麼"},{"start":2977.319,"end":3003.117,"text":"支持年輕藝術家的作品有這麼困難嗎?文化部有沒有好好的去跟各部會去洽談合作的方案讓他們知道有這麼好的東西在我們的庫房當中除了政府部門以外本期也看到文化部有積極的有不夠積極的與企業洽談合作方案我目前只看到老爺行旅台堂可不可以更積極的拓展企業的合作那國內支持藝術發展的企業有非常的多不應該只有兩岸"},{"start":3003.817,"end":3027.538,"text":"此部分希望能夠請部長說明這個是不是可以說明一下我們現在應該是一個所謂的積極主動創新的內閣但是為什麼我們有這麼多的作品在這邊自己內部的部會花了幾千萬去裝潢結果我們沒有來跟文化部來合作花了幾百萬來開演唱會沒有來跟文化部合作這部分部長理解嗎可不可以說明一下謝謝"},{"start":3029.887,"end":3030.887,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":3056.075,"end":3080.758,"text":"公家機關這個我想我們未來會努力其實我們也已經在做了我請司長補充好謝謝委員的指教那我們現在這個藝術銀行他我們已經努力的在讓這個各單位能夠積極的來承租這些作品那我們未來會再努力的現在也跟內政部有合作這個社宅影響的的活動"},{"start":3081.318,"end":3106.581,"text":"讓我們未來會再跟各部會再保持聯繫。謝謝,希望能夠支持,謝謝。好,謝謝部長跟司長。我想預算的部分本席堅持還是要爭略,因為這是一個精神,這是一個原則,讓其他部會知道說文化部有這樣子的需求,文化部有這樣的意圖要推廣年輕的藝術家支持藝術,因為支持不應該只是口頭說說,"},{"start":3107.602,"end":3131.058,"text":"主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部主管國立文化部"},{"start":3137.995,"end":3141.197,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3165.343,"end":3180.577,"text":"這個部分我們理解了一下文化部的媒體宣傳費用其實目標跟預算是不太符合業界的行情其實大家也都有提出我們認為媒體政策跟業務宣導"},{"start":3181.238,"end":3208.036,"text":"當然這對很多部會尤其是文化跟藝術的傳播來說是非常重要的但是我想必須要符合市場的行情否則的話呢大家會覺得怎麼這個自己政府的部會花錢大手大腳KPI呢則是這個謹慎羅列我想這樣的一個風氣是不太不太不太好的是不是能夠請這個文化部評估一下我們認為呢應該是簡列五百萬元凍結十分之一謝謝"},{"start":3209.656,"end":3236.473,"text":"好 謝謝那另外那個第三案、第五案因為洪牧海委員跟羅迪委員還沒有到那但是本期我主席也有提我來說明一下第二案的部分因為是委辦那委辦案其實我想對於委辦這個業務我們最重要是委出去以後我們還是要有監督跟控管的能力所以我看到在委辦的這個部分我們沒有說得太清楚所以這個是不是等一下請部長能夠再說明一下要不然其實我是提能夠減滅500、凍結500"},{"start":3238.434,"end":3243.319,"text":"第四案是業務費用大陸地區的旅費。我們在列運算當中並沒有說明我們到底要去哪裡,然後要做什麼事。這是第一個最重要的。"},{"start":3256.834,"end":3258.536,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3275.512,"end":3297.678,"text":"根據這兩點來說的話我是提案是能夠全數凍結那之後再來做說明後要解凍再來解凍那我是看到羅廷文委員有說要全數刪除因為他覺得這個完全沒有必要那另外在這個媒體政策跟業務宣導部分我想我們表述跟葛國軍委員一樣我想是不是第2案到第7案我們請文化部也再做一個說明"},{"start":3299.955,"end":3324.711,"text":"我先講一下就大體上那個委辦費會變多是因為我們增加了非常多的活動尤其是國際交流運用科技的AI跟XR還有社區青年返鄉那中國的那個部分我們又還有盟戰委員會會去到盟戰那媒體政策跟業務費我們是因為明年還有大阪世博有一定的那個指標性的一些活動"},{"start":3325.672,"end":3328.535,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3350.595,"end":3378.533,"text":"我想因為兩岸的動態就是說明年一年我們也不知道情況嘛那其實就是民進黨政府還是希望能夠有對等的交流那文化是一個非常好的媒介我是希望保留這個預算那我相信安全方面他們一定會瞭解陸委會的各種的政策那可以的情況下就是就去交流我是覺得不需要扇或是動就是兩岸的文化方面的交流"},{"start":3381.377,"end":3395.928,"text":"簽期委員主席謝謝,那剛才我聽到部長這邊談到那這筆預算有一部分好像在做蒙藏嘛對不對那你還談到那個大阪市博但是你們後面在那個國際交流的部分也有大阪市博"},{"start":3396.508,"end":3421.687,"text":"所以我不知道你們這個大阪市博到底橫跨了多少個項目那所以這裡面還包括大阪市博的話那這個項目的比例跟這個跟後面的這個連結不過我們先就這個部分講先就這個部分講但是我這邊補充一下剛才你們那個大陸在蒙藏的這個區塊是一小部分這整個不是全部你剛才講的內容不是只有這樣子"},{"start":3422.227,"end":3443.797,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3444.702,"end":3470.207,"text":"提問委員在準備的時候我先補充一個剛剛那個部長是有提到說中間還包含蒙藏不過呢我看一下其實你們地點很廣有說要去華北北京、青島、西安、華中、上海、杭州華南、廈門、深圳、香港、澳門其實涵蓋了很多各大都市那到底要去做什麼其實是沒有說明的那一樣盧君委員"},{"start":3472.428,"end":3498.577,"text":"謝謝齁我剛剛其實提到的問題我覺得我們還是沒有得到回答其實我們認為當然要做國際行銷做這個文化藝術的這個傳播當然是很重要但是要符合市場行情齁這邊其實是5943萬喔那裡面有很大一部分你們這邊提出來的績效呢就是以這個巴黎文化奧運這是過去啦113年啦齁你們之前所訂的這個這個所謂的"},{"start":3501.075,"end":3518.143,"text":"結果在巴黎文化奧運媒體行銷刊登或脫波於國內外媒體你們定的效益和績效目標我真的不知道部長您知不知道達成至少25次的電視新聞報導25次沒有指定是國內還是國外"},{"start":3519.324,"end":3547.92,"text":"是都加在一起都可以喔再來是50萬次的views它還不是unique views是50萬次的網路新聞點擊喔平面媒體報導以及國際媒體刊登這是一個幾百幾千萬的東西你說25次50萬次我不知道有做過那個網路媒體行銷的都知道啊可能剛剛我們可能在那邊開個會可能就有25次媒體就有50萬次啦那我們為什麼還要花這個錢我想這個"},{"start":3549.581,"end":3564.35,"text":"這個支出的理由我們可以理解但是這個經費的多寡跟這個所謂的結果成效他應該要能夠對在一起他應該要能夠符合大家整個的一個觀點嘛對吧這個補充一下謝謝好謝謝盧俊偉人那還沒有哪個委員預算那個羅廷偉委員"},{"start":3578.424,"end":3581.208,"text":"第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3595.427,"end":3611.182,"text":"那我想文化部編列這樣子的一個大陸地區的旅費96萬2000元應該就應該要刪除我們應該要聽政府的話應該要聽執政黨的話怎麼文化部帶頭跟現在的執政黨造反"},{"start":3612.003,"end":3636.368,"text":"我想這個顯見跟政策跟實際的執行存在著矛盾形同就是只准州官放火不准百姓點燈我想這個預算書看不出實際出訪的內容無法說明在大陸地區的旅費有必要性所以我覺得這個應該刪除這個有浪費國家的預算所以我希望能夠提案刪除那也請大家一起來考慮一下謝謝"},{"start":3637.788,"end":3638.729,"text":"請文化部再做更詳細的一個說明好嗎"},{"start":3647.761,"end":3676.25,"text":"謝謝各位委員的指正那事實上這個大陸地區的旅費包括大陸地區還有港澳地區它96萬2000元事實上從2021年我們臺灣政府在香港派駐的常駐人力就完全掉回所以現在我們在香港是沒有常設人力的所以有很多的這樣子的一個活動的進行是需要仰賴國際財旅來進行所以這一筆費用是非常有這樣子的一個需求"},{"start":3676.91,"end":3705.845,"text":"另外在文創方面、影視方面還有出版方面大陸也是一個市場還在進行當中至於國人安全當然我們是依照港澳跟外交部他們對於國人旅遊有一個反讀22條的提示事實上這一個方面我們也會多加注意只是說這個差旅是在沒有長駐辦公室的情況之下是更加需要的所以請委員支持"},{"start":3706.425,"end":3721.476,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3721.476,"end":3738.456,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3738.676,"end":3763.091,"text":"事實上大阪市博的規模比文化奧運多了6倍它從4月13號到10月13號然後地理位置上臺灣跟日本的鄰近性所以參與的除了像今年的巴黎奧運集中在表演藝術之外事實上它文化科技的主題所以它會有很多文化科技內容的導入然後表演藝術、視覺藝術還是照舊那另外還會有一個"},{"start":3766.493,"end":3789.684,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":3790.044,"end":3791.725,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3814.377,"end":3841.971,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3842.472,"end":3844.434,"text":"國立文化部主管國立文化部主管我這邊覺得"},{"start":3858.268,"end":3886.169,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3886.98,"end":3887.62,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3906.65,"end":3908.891,"text":"範圍委員如果是以文化部做的就是努力的巴黎文化奧運我是非常的肯定"},{"start":3927.88,"end":3953.867,"text":"當然葛國軍委員可能對量化指標比較熟但是我想質化指標的部分就是法國世界報評論說臺灣希望在奧運期間受到壓制的身份及文化透過臺灣館的文化展演能夠在奧運結束後獲得勝利那個世界報應該是法國的第一大報吧這個是多少錢都買不到的而且它不是廣告它是新聞所以我想如果以"},{"start":3954.287,"end":3968.165,"text":"巴黎文化奧運文化部的努力我是覺得是超出我的預期那這一次就是預算上你們可能要說明的是跟去年一樣還是說列的更高如果列的更高就解釋一下否則我們就講審來講的話不應該是懲罰文化部"},{"start":3971.169,"end":3992.295,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3994.062,"end":4010.595,"text":"謝謝,再請盧俊偉議員既然范瑀委員說這是錢買不到的我覺得不能這樣子出現一個錢買不到的東西現在就用錢來衡量好不好我想這個剛剛也沒有說啊我們剛剛已經講了那麼多了文化部可以回應說委員你搞錯了我們只是先定第一點"},{"start":4011.375,"end":4026.318,"text":"結果我們有500萬次我們有5000萬次也可以回應啊我們完全沒有聽到喔那到底我們文化部單位我相信精神上大家都支持但是這個我們在討論預算預算就是數字很抱歉數字就是對數字"},{"start":4027.159,"end":4039.728,"text":"否則我們大家都說好我們錢花出去了我們來期待有這個這個金錢難以衡量的回報我覺得也不是這樣那所以這個我是個人支持趙偉的做法就是趙偉的提案是這個簡列500萬那凍結500萬謝謝"},{"start":4052.393,"end":4068.958,"text":"委員說明,委員剛剛念的那些數字的確是因為我們第一次沒有經驗,所以我們不敢把指標定的太高。但事實上就表現的結果來說,我們是遠遠高於那個指標。所以我的建議是我們是不是可以補充這樣的一個指標。然後凍結的部分我們可以維持凍結500,但是不要刪除500。"},{"start":4069.778,"end":4085.29,"text":"也就是說在凍結之前我們會提出一個報告讓委員知道說我們後來的規劃是什麼那也跟委員說明之前巴黎奧運的成果是什麼因為我想這個數字的確是因為當時標案的數字但結果其實是遠超過這個數字不曉得可不可以這樣來進行"},{"start":4094.177,"end":4117.256,"text":"請請委員我們先充分的讓所有委員發表一下市長我想請問一下你說的指標定的比較高是什麼樣子的指標定比較高這針對文化部的部分嗎這個指標定的比較低不是比較高原先但是表現遠超過你表現是怎麼去界定的一樣用這樣同樣的指標量化指標量化指標就是這邊包括點擊率活動參與率跟國際媒體這些刊登的點閱次數等等"},{"start":4122.688,"end":4138.831,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4138.831,"end":4154.292,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4154.472,"end":4154.612,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":4171.794,"end":4194.421,"text":"你們一直搖頭,因為我記得我們每次講話你們都一直搖頭,但是我不知道搖頭的回應是什麼呢?一整個會期我常常看到這樣子欸。這不是買新聞,新聞之路現在是被禁止的。這個部分就是你要刊登基本上還是會有這樣的費用,譬如說你要有記者會,你要邀請人家來,這些事情還是要付費的。對,啊那個結果呢?我們不知道結果你是要,有我們的結果就是說記者會現場有多少人,然後活動現場有多少人。"},{"start":4196.562,"end":4212.319,"text":"就是這些量化數字我們會提供那你怎麼評估的我也不知道欸就是我去文化運動會場我不知道你們進去的時候是電子計算還是怎樣有我們現場每天都有人數的數字都有都有進場進出場的人數數字所以你那個數字現在有嗎"},{"start":4214.794,"end":4215.355,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4233.866,"end":4249.091,"text":"總計會上億的捏,然後他只剩五百捏明年的大阪市博市長達八個月跟文化奧運的期間只有十幾天是完全不一樣的所以十幾天花那樣子的錢,然後明年八個月,你們要花錢的這個比率一樣兩千多萬"},{"start":4251.111,"end":4251.611,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4277.527,"end":4304.898,"text":"去年當然是比今年多一些我補充一下,因為那個大阪市我本來是經濟部在辦的我們很難得跟他要求讓我們也參加那個時間非常長,全年度有半年然後我們地點有六個地方那事實上日本對台灣的那種好奇跟有興趣其實我自己親自去了一趟他們日本非常友善"},{"start":4305.638,"end":4332.455,"text":"我們花這個錢去讓日本對台灣的認識更多增加這個友誼我覺得應該是划算的因為我自己在短短的時間內去日本發現他們對台灣的認識跟興趣越來越高因為我們在熊本蓋了一個台積電之後他們甚至於所有書店都開始擺出台灣的書來我覺得我們應該慎慎追擊所以也謝謝委員對於巴黎奧運親自到現場看到的情況"},{"start":4333.456,"end":4334.117,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4350.782,"end":4351.323,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4369.206,"end":4399.087,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4399.367,"end":4425.443,"text":"相信政府相信執政黨竟然是橙色危險最近兩岸的關係也不是很好我相信民進黨的一個決策所以這時不宜到大陸地區旅遊所以我覺得應該刪除好那那個大陸地區的這個旅費的部分的話聽聞委員是主張堅持全數刪除"},{"start":4428.304,"end":4456.815,"text":"官報部這邊剛剛有提到以前我們在香港只有一個住的住點現在完全沒有所以我覺得我們兩岸之間的狀況隨時萬變一整年的時間你不曉得會變成什麼樣所以那個費用其實我們保留這個錢其實是非常少的如果完全刪掉我們萬一有狀況要去而且我們真的不知道會有什麼變化所以費用其實變得少少的"},{"start":4458.228,"end":4458.408,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":4476.147,"end":4491.191,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4506.883,"end":4532.362,"text":"所以我不懂現在文化部及范雲委員在提出兩岸交流的重要性在哪裡那這個時間點突然告訴我們文化要交流那面對別人在文化交流的時候卻完全的否決而且我還是一樣那句話相信執政黨相信政府現在已經陳設地區了那海基會羅文嘉董事長一直不斷的求救"},{"start":4533.103,"end":4537.506,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4560.28,"end":4564.263,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4590.489,"end":4592.491,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4613.21,"end":4639.257,"text":"但是如果對方要出版我們的書把我們的國家字改成台灣最後國家女性主義變成台灣女性主義就失去了平等實質交流的緣故就變成那這樣的東西我們就應該拒絕所以我覺得沒有這種統戰不尊重對方的文化交流當然是就是說要支持鼓勵這是我一貫的立場都沒有改變過我對文化部的交流也是一樣的態度"},{"start":4640.857,"end":4641.297,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4667.324,"end":4690.854,"text":"我國相關的人員出訪的時候的一些安全在現階段跟去年是不能比較的現階段民進黨告訴我們已經不對等了那我們更不應該去交流因為他已經違背了我們對等交流所以這個時候應該刪除所以在這個前提之下我都是要要求對等交流而且是保障我國人員以及我國的主權最重要的尊嚴這部分所以我覺得應該要刪除"},{"start":4694.24,"end":4720.047,"text":"我覺得羅廷偉也是支持民進黨的政策啦因為對面真的很危險而且過去的話可能被統戰啦所以我覺得是不是這個案子就按照羅廷偉的通過我們要繼續下面因為下面的案子很多啦這個就保留到時候政黨去協商社一起處理啊就保留吧他這個沒有辦法改組決議這可不可以保留那個招委"},{"start":4722.022,"end":4742.022,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4742.022,"end":4744.203,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4769.292,"end":4789.633,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4790.394,"end":4813.556,"text":"這點是大家誤會那這樣子好不好我想其實我們都是同意並且鼓勵兩岸其實要對等交流的沒有問題尤其文化走先這件事情我們是一定支持的不過因為我們就預算談預算因為在預算案裡面並沒有看到這個交流比如說你說今天要到北京、青島、西安、廈門、香港我們要做什麼是沒有的所以我在想我們這一筆"},{"start":4814.697,"end":4822.338,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4846.537,"end":4851.301,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4854.318,"end":4879.108,"text":"如果我們同意說給部長一個我們就信任他一次那如果明年可以春暖花開那兩岸願意好好的來做對等的交流那當然啦每個部會編的錢我們的兩岸交流錢我們都會願意給但是呢就是要看我們去要做什麼所以我在想那是不是我們全數凍結那至於專案報告還是書面報告那大家的意見呢主席尊重大家的意見"},{"start":4883.639,"end":4884.34,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4911.22,"end":4911.361,"text":"好對於這個呃朝偉有說齁"},{"start":4915.322,"end":4942.397,"text":"如果確定的話是可以先凍結但是解凍之前要先做一個報告那我們要確定到底是為了什麼要支應這一筆費用要去哪裡做什麼事做什麼文化交流得到什麼樣的一個實際的成績的一個預期再來做一個解凍的話我相信這個會比較"},{"start":4944.628,"end":4945.683,"text":"讓我們比較可以接受"},{"start":4949.148,"end":4954.27,"text":"大陸地區的旅費全數凍結明年有詳細的說明到底要怎麼使用的報告上來以後我們才來進行解凍案的審查接下來我們來看媒體政策跟業務宣導費用5943萬6千元"},{"start":4977.416,"end":4997.837,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們剛剛已經都講了很多那關於這個結果成效其實大家都非常關注那剛剛有一張這個那也是就是范雲委員所講的法國世界報那也並沒有提到網路也並沒有提到這些新聞其他新聞媒體的露出"},{"start":4998.798,"end":5024.832,"text":"我想精神大家都同意就是希望讓世界看到我們那也希望參加各種博覽會都有很好的露出但是我希望讓大家回憶起我們的文化部部長小野部長絕對他的風骨是不會用錢來衡量的大家回憶起小野部長當年在推動我們的電影新浪潮光陰的故事"},{"start":5025.572,"end":5048.439,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5048.519,"end":5052.644,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5063.476,"end":5065.877,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5092.455,"end":5113.326,"text":"接下來我們進行第一幕一般行政第八案、第九案、第十案有哪位委員要做說明"},{"start":5123.587,"end":5123.867,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5156.403,"end":5162.125,"text":"第二幕綜合規劃業務從第11案到第35案第一幕動50萬第一幕動50萬第一幕動50萬第一幕動50萬"},{"start":5185.265,"end":5204.491,"text":"第8案第8案你可以說明一下好,針對媒體揭露文化部駐紐約文化中心設職場霸凌的事件我想為維護所有的公務人員在工作的權益確保駐外單位的管理機制的安全所以我想在這個部分我們希望"},{"start":5205.051,"end":5230.164,"text":"文化部應該全面檢討駐外單位內部管理機制以及申訴機制建立友善且透明的職場環境我們到目前還是有許多內部同仁在跟我們反映相關的申訴機制就是跟自己的長官來做一個檢舉但是面對自己的長官如果有這樣子霸凌的可疑性"},{"start":5231.184,"end":5257.676,"text":"那這樣子怎麼跟自己的長官來做一個申訴他們會擔心官官相互到底能不能有更讓人安心的一個申訴機制管道或者是第三單位委外來處理這樣子的申訴機制保障這樣子相關的檢舉人我這個部分我打一個很大的疑問我也希望能夠提升這方面的一個後勤的保障的一個措施包括心理健康的一個支持"},{"start":5258.556,"end":5283.691,"text":"我想我們都對這個霸凌非常的痛惡但是在這個部分上我們還是感受到目前文化部內部可能有一些問題等著我們要來解決所以在這個部分我是刪100萬動7千萬那希望文化部向我們做一個專案報告再來做同意以上50萬真的太少了"},{"start":5285.691,"end":5286.732,"text":"第九項議案是內部行政問題的預算。"},{"start":5303.234,"end":5325.863,"text":"那是針對臺文館在今年有一個抄襲的案子就是那個阿龍吉祥物當時由我來檢舉來揭發後來當然是馬上是有道歉但是這個問題非常的嚴重因為文化部文化"},{"start":5326.587,"end":5333.058,"text":"尊重原創是文化創作的基本精神文化部內部發生"},{"start":5335.751,"end":5350.834,"text":"操習事件這就是裡面的一個管理這個文化出問題所以在這裡我還是要堅持對於因為這個是一個文化部在這裡要提出整個針對內部這種作權的相關的規範還有機制更加的嚴謹提出書面報告使得動之"},{"start":5365.523,"end":5392.715,"text":"我們這兩案我們請文化部做一個說明好嗎?針對第八案齁80的這部分先跟委員做說明這部分紐約這個部分我們當然已經開了中央調查小組所以這部分已經在進行中那委員有要求說在住外單位的部分都要進行總的檢討這個我們也可以來做那跟委員說明他其實並不是向自己的直屬主管提出檢舉他基本上是向部本部的人事處提出"},{"start":5392.995,"end":5420.742,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5423.1,"end":5445.957,"text":"第九案這個針對文學館這部分也跟委員做說明我們其實已經進行了檢討那相關的人員也有懲處調職等等的處理也就是說我們在行政上其實有很負責任的去把發生的事情執行檢討避免以後再犯所以還希望委員不要在這個日常的行政費用裡面做高幅度的凍結或刪除以上"},{"start":5447.626,"end":5472.905,"text":"我補充一下剛剛講到霸凌的事件我想我們會在非常保密的情況下來處理目前文化部真的蠻少的我個人來了半年一直相信雅璇的一句話溫柔是必要肯定是必要我從來沒有罵過員工一句話所以整個氣氛請你相信我然後包括抄襲上次我們巴黎奧運葛禄君委員只要講到有一點點像什麼我們立刻改"},{"start":5473.766,"end":5479.731,"text":"就這半年來你可以看到我們沒有抄襲也霸凌事件真的非常少所以希望你們支持我那針對那個部長的溫情喊話 廷偉我先請問一下次長這個霸凌委員會的相關的一個調查委員會裡面的委員組成是哪些"},{"start":5497.349,"end":5523.491,"text":"有次長嗎?有次長有分召集人但是外委是外委的比例超過內部的委員意思是說因為我們有一些這基本上都是這樣我知道但現在我們的問題第一個我要跟大家講就是說我相信小野部長你不會霸凌我相信你不會罵人我也相信何佩珊不會罵人但問題今天就不是何佩珊罵人今天是何佩珊下面的人"},{"start":5524.392,"end":5550.767,"text":"在做相關的一些霸凌然後官官相互然後調查報告還有所謂的利益良善所以我們現在擔心的是整個霸凌調查小組裡面萬一次長跟其他內部的成員是所謂的直屬長官那有所謂的派系你是誰的人他是誰的人然後剛好被那一批的人給霸凌到了那我要怎麼去做一個申訴再來再來小野部長"},{"start":5551.874,"end":5581.065,"text":"你前幾天在媒體直接對話是講什麼您說請具名檢舉當時具名這兩個字傷透了大家的心現階段你告訴我是匿名OK我可以接受但前幾天你說請具名檢舉面對我的爆料的時候你呼籲大家具名檢舉我覺得大家都受傷了為什麼你是這樣子對待所有的一些內部的同仁"},{"start":5581.865,"end":5608.173,"text":"整個在網路粉絲專頁有多少人在這個粉絲專頁裡面留言靠杯藝術對不起我不是講髒話這是這個粉絲專頁的名稱大家可以去看看有多少人在上面爆料多少人不願意相信文化部內部的檢舉制度選擇在這個粉絲專頁不斷的在寫這些事情如果是一起兩起算了"},{"start":5609.113,"end":5633.329,"text":"我們不斷的收集至少有七八起在上面不斷的在講文化部這裡有那裡有當然都有待查證我沒有要直接定罪但是這個現階段我們相信部長但對不起部長本來就不是兇手何沛山也不是兇手但問題是官官相護讓大家不夠擔不夠放心了"},{"start":5634.432,"end":5651.679,"text":"所以我今天才會提出這樣子的一個不管是刪除跟凍結那我希望能夠在更有效的甚至是有一個讓我們能夠安心我們當然可以放行可是在如果沒有這樣子的一個安全機制之下我們要怎麼能夠放任這些預算讓你們去使用"},{"start":5655.386,"end":5656.707,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5681.092,"end":5681.933,"text":"主席"},{"start":5702.481,"end":5712.073,"text":"現在行政院已經開放了一個平台那個平台是要具名但是據我了解如果匿名的話會有三個人來針對匿名來做一個篩選"},{"start":5714.616,"end":5717.857,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5741.636,"end":5769.193,"text":"光山勾結也不會包庇一點都不會這個我的個性你應該相信好我們有請范雲委員我想我對於那個羅廷威委員關心霸凌案這個部分他的用意我是非常的認同那但是就是說關於那個匿名跟拒名的部分其實台灣正在摸索怎麼去處理霸凌案那的確一開始不大知道如果匿名的時候譬如說一個人那你要不要處理"},{"start":5769.753,"end":5773.316,"text":"內名狀況如何處理?例如以性騷案故主知悉知悉聽到一個匿名可能會覺得不相信如果兩三個的話故主只要知悉他其實就要去調查跟維護了可是我們霸凌目前還沒有那麼完善的機制所以我想在過渡期間部長展現他很關切"},{"start":5794.111,"end":5808.982,"text":"當時那樣講我並不會覺得他問題很大因為主要就是說匿名要怎麼處理我們為什麼我們也有收到具名的但是不願意對行政院的部會就是具名的他對立委具名"},{"start":5809.742,"end":5833.773,"text":"我們的處理方式就是說因為他不信任我們把這個名字講出去部會他不會被報復所以我們就讓部會首長指導不是針對文化部別部會有這樣的案子那你應該要處理那對方不願意對你具名可是對立委具名我們用我們的信用保證告訴部會說有這樣子你要主動調查所以我覺得這個機制其實正在建立中當然羅廷偉委員的用意是好的希望你們好好處理"},{"start":5834.773,"end":5859.514,"text":"但是現在文化部看起來的程序就目前的條件下已經盡可能符合就是客觀就是兩位外部專家然後還有跟當事人雙方無利害關係的內部人員一名一個月內要完成調查報告必要時得延長一個月而且對雙方的權勢關係都有去處理就是目前依當事人意願居家辦公"},{"start":5860.214,"end":5860.614,"text":"還有沒有哪位委員要補充意見?葛國軍委員"},{"start":5884.246,"end":5908.823,"text":"我想這個我只是插個話說這個我覺得剛剛我們在討論到行銷的時候我們講這個行銷結果我們聽到文化部說文化奧運我們第一次處理所以這個結果怎麼樣怎麼樣又突然變成新手了就是我們以前都說台灣之光行銷台灣理論上老手都變成新手"},{"start":5909.463,"end":5911.085,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5928.282,"end":5948.244,"text":"結果現在講到這個霸凌突然又說我們台灣對霸凌的處理還在學習中突然又變新手了我覺得不要到這個審預算一審到這裡突然什麼東西都變新手了錢先給我們做做看我就只是插這個話不好意思如果有對您不禮貌我表達這個遺憾但是我覺得"},{"start":5949.546,"end":5958.656,"text":"這個審預算我們大家都是很認真的在審啦不要說反而是您是這個執政黨的委員突然就是審預算什麼東西都變新手我覺得這樣不好看好謝謝"},{"start":5960.333,"end":5965.776,"text":"我可以說明我想我們那個職災法、職安法葛國軍委員可以去看一下那當時在那個就是職災保險法我是全立法院唯一一個在行政院提出草案的時候只有我一個人有版本所以我一直是非常關心職業災害相關的事情那也因為我們有職安法、職災法裡面才有霸凌現在可以處理"},{"start":5984.827,"end":6002.501,"text":"可是相關的辦法SOP如果你去看一下齁其實從台北市政府不分黨派中央到地方都非常的粗糙那MeToo也是在我們當時一直要求勞動部修法我是早在沒有MeToo事件就要求修法的可是勞動部一直沒有處理直到MeToo爆發"},{"start":6003.081,"end":6015.469,"text":"所以我講的是客觀的事實你去看霸凌哪些國家有什麼定義那台灣現在連個定義都不清楚所以我說他剛開始在處理我想不為過吧我是遵照一個事實我了解事實再說"},{"start":6016.52,"end":6042.421,"text":"我是非常尊敬范園委員因為知道您在平權還有這一塊真的是花了非常長的時間但是這個民進黨執政已經非常長的時間你剛剛還甩鍋給地方政府我真的是覺得沒關係不是我說中央跟地方都還不夠我是同意羅廷偉委員支持他凍結對我只是聽到您剛剛說我們好像台灣好像在這個議題上突然又變新手"},{"start":6042.961,"end":6044.421,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6058.936,"end":6079.011,"text":"好這個我來講其實我覺得葛委員他的說法當然我覺得會比較嚴厲啦但是我覺得他是希望我們的政府應該面對問題解決問題所以我覺得葛委員說的也沒有錯那很可惜勞動部長不是請范雲委員去做"},{"start":6079.872,"end":6101.34,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6102.449,"end":6124.821,"text":"獎項獎項獎"},{"start":6125.327,"end":6147.495,"text":"那也謝謝范雲委員支持我在這個部分上的一個凍結但是我要再講的是這五億多五億七千多萬五億七千八我才三一百萬這是一時一時而已我今天不是三一千萬不是三一億三一百萬都不行那今天好我可以尊重大家都用凍結沒關係那現在我願意就是凍結10%"},{"start":6151.184,"end":6159.721,"text":"但是不要告訴我說只能凍結50萬那對不起我覺得差距太大整個5億多只能凍結50萬"},{"start":6161.977,"end":6182.843,"text":"我覺得希望能夠凍結10%,然後要提出報告。我要了解到底現在現階段文化部的一些霸凌案件,整個申訴的SOP機制,然後以及現階段被爆料的還有申訴的案件調查報告一一的呈現給我們,才可以凍結。"},{"start":6184.585,"end":6184.785,"text":"主席"},{"start":6202.522,"end":6229.424,"text":"另外一個剛剛您提到那個霸凌的事情我在這裡跟您再解釋我同意我不是要具名我是要具體事實而且經過了委員正式在對外講我完全不會不重視我委員講出來之後他跟那個我在八卦大家在那個講那個在網路上講那些東西這兩個是不一樣的因為委員已經站出來講了其實我有在了解"},{"start":6230.442,"end":6230.482,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":6251.272,"end":6273.764,"text":"文化部到目前為止處理的每一件事情大家都這樣希望大家要有信心因為我們事實上沒有幾件事情一發生我們就馬上做剛剛委員講的我真的承認也許我當時心裡很急啊因為我不知道該怎麼打因為我沒辦法處理網路上講的這個那個我真的很難回答而且行政院馬上就要開始一個真的open的一個平台了我想說行政院那個平台開了之後我們跟評議員之間會密切的聯絡"},{"start":6277.526,"end":6282.37,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6304.827,"end":6308.028,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6335.197,"end":6342.065,"text":"刑政費用刑政費用刑政費用刑政費用"},{"start":6350.191,"end":6352.513,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6375.615,"end":6380.036,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6402.154,"end":6404.556,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":6417.785,"end":6418.266,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6434.046,"end":6449.762,"text":"人事費用我們不要去動它因為那是既有的開支那所以就是九千萬的部分是在這個行政的費用的部分那行政的費用的部分那剛剛有講說假設我們動10%等於就是范雲委員剛剛所講的一千萬"},{"start":6450.583,"end":6453.324,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6471.909,"end":6471.969,"text":"議員主席議員"},{"start":6492.296,"end":6493.377,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6515.651,"end":6540.832,"text":"我必須要講這不是因為一個案件現在有多起案件我們都還在了解調查那現階段是范雲委員跟我講一千萬那我願意來支持那我也變成九百了我想這個部分我們都是願意讓你們解凍我還是再次的強調趕快提出報告我們就趕快解凍我們並沒有要刁難並沒有要不讓你動之那剛剛范雲委員您說的一千萬范雲委員"},{"start":6543.186,"end":6546.007,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6570.751,"end":6578.875,"text":"我休息五分鐘,我們大家溝通一下好不好,好,休息五分鐘。因為這個基本行政費用,對,它會有些那個時間差啦,但它因為,"},{"start":6598.824,"end":6600.765,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6633.286,"end":6638.868,"text":"因為我的行政流程一定是三股通過以後然後我們就開始要寫那個報告進委員會進委員會以後要先經過論會給台審送回委員會來的時候我們才能出來報告"},{"start":6653.149,"end":6662.92,"text":"八四一般行政我們剛才一直講到霸凌去了重點可是霸凌跟這個應該沒關係等於是有點"},{"start":6677.436,"end":6683.938,"text":"主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6699.122,"end":6702.105,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6716.021,"end":6719.642,"text":"主要是我們講著講著忘了行政責任所以不能動"},{"start":6744.264,"end":6759.173,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":6774.168,"end":6777.379,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":6782.495,"end":6793.719,"text":"沒有,他一定願意改,他應該剛也沒有發現實際的行為違規,因為這個真的只包含經常討論的程度討論這麼久他還不知道是不是算實際案?沒有,那我來說明,沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":6807.037,"end":6811.882,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6837.449,"end":6863.33,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6865.825,"end":6868.866,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案。"},{"start":6880.879,"end":6907.329,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6909.858,"end":6933.297,"text":"好,我們剛才一樣在這個第一幕這個基本行政工作的這個費用那羅廷偉委員在5億7860萬的部分然後我們扣掉4億8千萬的人事費用不動那剩下的部分其實就是第9案第10案的9475萬的部分那現在羅廷偉委員同意就是"},{"start":6935.196,"end":6965.196,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6965.196,"end":6965.736,"text":"主席主席我可以"},{"start":6993.82,"end":6994,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":7009.725,"end":7035.977,"text":"當然因為它關係到基本行政工作維持也就是說當我們都現在在喊公務人員他們的相關工作超量又超時然後有非常多的工作可能導致於之前大家所關心跟擔心的職場霸凌或者是因為工時過長導致於大家身心壓力過大這個部分所以是不是我建議這樣好不好我們可不可以建議凍結100萬就好了"},{"start":7037.998,"end":7060.487,"text":"然後還是讓他們可以好好的運作好這個是我以上的建議謝謝主席謝謝好那個培育委員所講的齁我們都予以尊重那美國委員有自己的說法齁但是我們也都希望能夠在守護霸凌的一個案件不要再發生剛剛是范雲委員所提出凍結一千萬那他現在不在我們把它改掉了我們越來越少"},{"start":7061.445,"end":7082.942,"text":"那我想我已經從七千萬跟簡列都一直在退讓也願意支持范雲委員范雲委員也支持我那我想我們是兩位委員來做這樣子的凍結一千萬我覺得希望大家能夠支持嗯有沒有其他委員有其他意見補充"},{"start":7087.472,"end":7112.251,"text":"沒有 那我就主席來處理剛才一開始的時候我想這個羅廷輝委員他知道5億7860萬裡面包含4億8千萬是人事費用以後那他就馬上願意用9475萬就跟第9案、第10案一樣的方式來處理那現在是范雲委員提案要凍結1000萬"},{"start":7114.312,"end":7120.616,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7142.365,"end":7153.637,"text":"委員可以接受嗎?不好意思,呃,趙偉您的平均數跟我的平均不太一樣,我是1000,我跟范雲委員是1000,那那個吳春成委員是凍結300,那是1300,那剛剛培育委員說是凍結100,那就是1400,1400除以2是700。好。"},{"start":7164.332,"end":7168.097,"text":"三百好不好,因為這個真的涉及到,像電費我們每年都不夠"},{"start":7181.975,"end":7200.255,"text":"動用到那個預備金這點是真的真實情況我們後來都用預備金來解決對不起我數學比那個原子委員還差對不起那剛剛原子委員有提醒我就是1000再加1000因為再加300再加100然後除以4等於600"},{"start":7204.053,"end":7204.093,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":7234.694,"end":7236.075,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7255.031,"end":7256.972,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":7275.845,"end":7279.406,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7304.003,"end":7305.884,"text":"接下來進行到第二幕"},{"start":7334.785,"end":7348.583,"text":"來我們第二幕的部分從第11案到第35案來我們我想每一個委員都有要發言我們就從先從我們這邊順序開始好了培育委員春晨然後儒君然後那個庭委跟人質"},{"start":7351.789,"end":7377.266,"text":"好我們的提案其實大致上來說文化部都有來溝通那不管是我們在意的這個兒少事務的部分還有關於這個文化產業的ESG這件事情其實我們一直在提醒文化部各個文化產業他們跟企業的接軌然後把ESG導入協助文化產業本身的轉型或者是協助其他企業為了做ESG而跟文化產業合作這件事情我認為絕對"},{"start":7379.047,"end":7405.62,"text":"是文化部接下來非常重要的任務而事後的部分我相信你們已經很清楚了只是可能相關的做法我認為還不夠細緻或者是實際上的執行還有很大跟民間的落差這個部分我們要提醒要持續加強還有法人的部分因為我相信大家都會因為一些新聞事件關心到一些法人的業務那關於法人的督導的部分不管是國營中心或者是影視中心、NSO這些事情我認為"},{"start":7406.36,"end":7406.7,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7427.46,"end":7450.868,"text":"緊急的因為其實在像日本已經有生優產業的生優出來提醒日本政府在大AI的時代在大開放的時代所有這些文化產業必須要被保護的情況下而不是被AI濫用那整體的預算來看我們可以待會跟大家一起討論並動但是後續我們會持續監督所有我們在意的議題以上第二幕的部分謝謝好我們請春晨委員"},{"start":7458.074,"end":7477.408,"text":"第二幕我有三個案子第二十個案子是對文化發展的評估要去韓國的考察二十四案是對於文化活動資訊的調查統計第三十一案是對於舉辦高齡科技與藝術工作這三個我一併談那在這裡"},{"start":7487.711,"end":7495.519,"text":"在這裡我一直在跟文化部溝通就是針對少子化高齡化台灣的"},{"start":7497.573,"end":7498.714,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7528.014,"end":7556.354,"text":"高齡社會是一個悲慘世界還是一個美麗的新世界這一個非常有賴我們現在整個政府基本上是把它當作悲慘世界在處理所以整個都稱為老人、稱為高齡、稱為要搶救的對象那能夠翻轉這些未來是在人口的一半"},{"start":7557.438,"end":7581.071,"text":"我們怎麼樣把這樣的一場視為災難的引發海嘯翻轉為國家發展的動力我在跟前文化部長鄭麗君我們現在的副院長溝通的時候他一聽就懂了他知道這個本質就是文化運動他說深受感動而且這個我也直至但是呢我跟文化部這樣溝通的"},{"start":7582.981,"end":7586.222,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7597.062,"end":7598.644,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":7617.008,"end":7622.65,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7641.696,"end":7666.209,"text":"但是沒有看到你們任何的計畫而且你們所謂的壯士代你們根本沒有認真的去了解壯士代你們都還是把他當作老人、高齡、熱齡的態度在處理還有所以呢在這一個部分當中我現在提出的這一些審查等一下有一些洞穴就看你們怎麼樣的回應"},{"start":7674.419,"end":7694.865,"text":"第十九案本席的提案內容是關於藝文工作者的勞動權益有鑑於藝文工作者的勞動條件其實有可能是普遍欠佳的根據勞動部職安署的資料112年跟111年藝文產業連續發生重大職債案件共造成三名藝文工作者身亡"},{"start":7695.845,"end":7716.101,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7716.501,"end":7718.722,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7744.514,"end":7769.303,"text":"那其實我們其實一直都知道過去這個藝術工作者文藝工作者之間用信任的關係來工作平常這個經濟好的情況可能還好沒什麼問題可是經濟狀況一旦不好現在可能又遇到這個可能科技啦AI啦等等其實這可能就會造成這個案子會變得很飄忽而且甚至會讓很多的藝文工作者突然講好了結果沒案子了講好了結果沒給錢了"},{"start":7770.943,"end":7792.583,"text":"這個其實會影響到很多藝文工作者的工作權益跟他這個收入的這個穩定度啦那關於這一點我想小野部長您其實有在電影圈、電視圈都有待過我相信你應該了解我剛剛說的這些過程都不是空穴來風啦其實是臺灣藝文圈的一個這個最美的風景造成的一個生態"},{"start":7793.924,"end":7815.737,"text":"通過人際網路招賓買碼當然有人情味啦我剛剛已經講了說最美的風景但是對藝文工作者來說其實是毫無保障的那我們其實在這段時間看到很多勞動權益因為不管是陋習也好還是這個現況也好受到影響我覺得我們整個政府都應該要動起來所以其實這種毫無保障的工作方式"},{"start":7817.057,"end":7824.741,"text":"除了會影響到收入,也會在工作過程中發生糾紛。除了會影響到收入,也會在工作過程中發生糾紛。除了會影響到收入,也會在工作過程中發生糾紛。除了會影響到收入,也會在工作過程中發生糾紛。"},{"start":7835.549,"end":7836.07,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":7853.866,"end":7882.711,"text":"既然要推動文化的發展就要帶頭做起文化部的補助案和採購案應該要把必須與藝文工作者簽訂藝文展演定型化契約列為必要條件這是一個帶頭做事的一種態度如果文化部自己的態度沒有做出來我的案子發包了幾百萬幾千萬甚至更高我沒有要求與我合作的廠商"},{"start":7883.211,"end":7906.92,"text":"去跟藝人工作者去好好的來簽訂合約反而是用口頭告知之後變來變去這個時有所聞我希望部長可不可以文化部帶頭示範我們能不能補助案採購案把這個列為必要條件那這個我想我們就是凍結我們就不刪除那為我們的藝人工作者去營造一個良好的勞動環境這部分部長能不能同意好接下來我們有請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":7914.684,"end":7915.184,"text":"主席"},{"start":7932.915,"end":7958.477,"text":"現階段對於我們現在許多的年輕人在從事一個新興的一個工作叫做網路直播組他們也是一個廣義的一個藝文工作者因為有的是表演唱歌有的是表演相關的一些才藝那我所認識到這一個直播組他是賦語賦語的一個類型的表演那個表演類型"},{"start":7959.358,"end":7962.763,"text":"那當時呢我們所遇到一個狀況就是這個直播組"},{"start":7965.013,"end":7987.728,"text":"現階段就是因為合約的關係被剝削不能轉約甚至會自動續約導致他被這個網路的直播平台綁著雖然文化部已經認定了表演類的網路直播組屬於文化藝術工作者的承攬及委任的契約指導原則範疇內但是網路平台與表演類的直播組間的合約還是爭議層出不窮"},{"start":7991.671,"end":8007.885,"text":"所以我們希望這個相關的保障在現階段是不足的一個情況有待文化部跨部會來做一個協調所以這邊我提出了凍結預算200萬希望文化部能夠在三個月內向立法院的教育文化委員會提出相關的報告"},{"start":8008.686,"end":8010.348,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":8025.53,"end":8042.665,"text":"甚至剝削有待文化部來拯救他們所以我對這件事情非常非常的看重我希望文化部一定要協助處理那我在上個會期就已經提出這樣子一個問題了到現在我們還是沒有得到真正的解決方案以上謝謝廷偉委員接下來請原汁委員"},{"start":8048.197,"end":8058.759,"text":"我是第33案有關於資訊系統維護及安全管理因為這每一年都有編7000多萬112年是7446萬113年也是7446萬但今年就多編了大概800萬左右編了8296萬但是我們就看不到就是多編了這800多萬到底你是細部是採購哪一些資訊項目我們看不到"},{"start":8077.603,"end":8104.791,"text":"也沒有說明也沒有進一步說明而且這個電腦採購每一年都編七千多萬那是有那麼多東西要買嗎所以這邊是要求凍結八百萬八百萬就是多出來的部分然後檢列三百萬等到跟我們教育委員會提出書面報告之後再凍結好謝謝好謝謝原志委員那接下來我們請范委員你有嗎好那我們"},{"start":8107.512,"end":8107.592,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":8123.398,"end":8123.839,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8146.193,"end":8162.055,"text":"國會會議來開會的人,你用什麼樣的機制來邀請這些人?我現在先是問題,問題回應了之後我再做後續的一個有關於經費方面整體的一個回應"},{"start":8162.756,"end":8186.067,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8186.107,"end":8208.034,"text":"除了統計以外,那它作為你們在文化施政上的一個分析這個部分我在上次是沒有聽到的那在二十五案這個業務單位也是有說明但是因為後續你們補的資料我對於裡面有關於那個會議就有一個你們委託一個大學所做的一個叫做公共事務的這個相關就是"},{"start":8209.955,"end":8213.296,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8233.441,"end":8234.282,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8253.149,"end":8255.171,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8271.588,"end":8298.258,"text":"因應壯世代的某一些作為但是我一直跟你們說你們這個壯世代作為第一壯世代的那個核心沒有抓到第二,非常的消極那剛才吳偉仁這邊所談到的就是說大家對於壯世代我們其實每個人在這邊應該90%左右都是壯世代那但是呢我們思考自己的問題好像連自己的問題都不是很抓得到核心而且都非常的消極所以他剛才說的這個悲慘世界我們每個人都有可能碰到"},{"start":8298.698,"end":8300.399,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":8315.592,"end":8329.846,"text":"這個部分如果沒有得到回應跟處理的話那我當然還是會尊重這個昭緯這邊所提的但是我真的至少這一整年從他提出來這個概念你們的回應在各個單位我沒有看到相對比較積極的處理"},{"start":8332.63,"end":8348.39,"text":"最後一項資訊系統我這邊優惠單位有來做一下說明我們就依我們的協議來做一個處理以上先做這樣子的詢問謝謝謝謝委員先培育委員然後春春委員補充"},{"start":8351.082,"end":8367.818,"text":"陳秀寶委員請我協助發言第17案關於藝文工作者身份認定的座談會因為他自己召開這個座談會根據座談會的會後的要求文化部希望在9月底前把相關藝文工作者的公協會找來開諮詢會議跟討論文化部你們後續的說明說會演繹未來要應用"},{"start":8372.422,"end":8397.318,"text":"議文公協會的成員名單來協助認定並且針對協助議文工作者參與社會保險的題目進行專題研究那你們的承諾是說明年上半年可以有研究的結果然後會再提出政策方案但是什麼時候要去韓國考察議文工作者身份認定的制度跟政策時間尚未決定所以修保委員希望文化部後續要持續提供制度的說明那他希望病安凍結金額提供200萬"},{"start":8399.199,"end":8402.982,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8414.87,"end":8430.289,"text":"那秀寶委員身為彰化在地的立委希望明年的時候彰化縣文創產業發展不要再墊底也請文化部留意彰化縣的辦理情形但是因為彰化縣這幾年文創產業一直都發展不佳希望文化部持續追蹤協助並按時期一起"},{"start":8430.809,"end":8432.731,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":8461.135,"end":8489.915,"text":"好,謝謝裴月委員,請村村委員補充好,我在這裡補充一下,文化部有說在這裡文策院有做臺灣文化內容消費趨勢的調查是針對15到69歲那70歲以上就沒有了那我跟大家講一下國發會的資料我們明年65歲以上佔人口20%都知道嘛那這20%的人是不需要文化嗎?"},{"start":8491.456,"end":8495.259,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8508.53,"end":8526.376,"text":"一半的人65歲以上的請問文化部認為這些人不需要文化嗎一半的人口然後根據各國其實對高齡參加義文活動就是最好的防老的一個措施不是衛福部的長照"},{"start":8527.176,"end":8528.857,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8552.108,"end":8552.889,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":8566.932,"end":8585.249,"text":"主席,主席我也講一下,我在這一幕當中我有16案23272932跟34那因為剛剛其他的委員其實都有說明過那有一些這個意見跟我這裡也是相同那我只有說一個我比較在意的事情在16案的地方那因為"},{"start":8586.348,"end":8588.55,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8613.157,"end":8626.143,"text":"整個勞動健康保護的規則由僱主對於在職勞工定期實施這一般的健康檢查可是我們自營作業者加上沒有一定的僱主大概有8萬人這個部分佔了將近4成38.1%那他是沒有辦法去享有的"},{"start":8628.624,"end":8630.006,"text":"主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8655.259,"end":8657.64,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8684.791,"end":8685.452,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8711.191,"end":8735.282,"text":"輔助的課程有27場還有音樂會其實上包括所有的管所我們都會整個管所包括這個就涉及到文化平權了我們所有的管所都已經打造這個平權參觀的模式所以其實我們都有在做所以這是我想請委員放心那我想我大概先講講這樣請司長講仔細一點"},{"start":8739.404,"end":8767.846,"text":"好 那我想先回應一下就是我春晨委員針對這個壯世代的文化政策的部分那沒有錯我們是現在目前會以這個臺灣文化內容消費趨勢的調查為基礎去做一些政策的一個規劃參考那我們有應這個委員的一個提示這目前大概我們會從四個面向來推動這個壯世代的一個政策那第一個當然就是延續他整個文化參與的途徑跟鼓勵這個世代的交流"},{"start":8768.546,"end":8773.109,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化創意產業及文化創意產業發展基金附主管文化創意產業及文化創意產業發展基金附"},{"start":8796.203,"end":8813.046,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8813.146,"end":8814.367,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8831.664,"end":8854.514,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":8854.514,"end":8874.07,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8874.17,"end":8876.952,"text":"第12屆第12會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8900.366,"end":8928.409,"text":"這部分我們已經在12月11號已經有召開會議那現在正在整理相關的意見那因為這個場次並沒有徵詢到藝文工作者所以我們後面持續會往這個方向來做繼續的推進跟發展那至於文化委員關心的就是這個平台那個部分因為其實只要是他的表演形式負責符合這個文化藝術講究條例第3條所定期他就是文化藝術工作者他就可以適用"},{"start":8929.21,"end":8932.392,"text":"7月範本網絡平台多元此部分我們會持續努力另外還有林倩琦委員針對全國文化會議的部分有給我們一些指導當然全國文化會議的召開包括"},{"start":8946.46,"end":8948.642,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8962.23,"end":8984.382,"text":"學者專家各領域在文化方面的學者專家民間團體甚至我們的民眾如果有興趣都可以來報名的參加都可以來報名參加所以他是一個全體全員可以一起來關心文化政策的一個場域好那另外委員在關心這個通訊員的部分那這部分其實就是因為我們有一個文化"},{"start":8986.043,"end":8990.064,"text":"活動資訊系統必須收錄相關文化活動統計所以我們在地方政府都有派駐通訊員協助我們在蒐集這個地方的文化活動這部分也行之有年希望委員可以支持另外委員有提問公共在112年有輔助政大去辦公共政策學術研討會為什麼會"},{"start":9014.79,"end":9018.494,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9039.633,"end":9040.694,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9065.626,"end":9088.011,"text":"好,各位委員好,資訊處這邊補充吼,那有關委員關心的我們的資訊預算在114年增加850萬的部分吼,那跟各位委員說明吼,我們文化部是採資訊集中,所以我們所屬的機關都沒有資訊人員,也沒有編資訊經費,所以這個七、八千萬都是這20個機關在共用,那我們這個20個機關共用我們的郵件系統、EIP系統、官網、強補助等等。"},{"start":9091.732,"end":9110.418,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9110.818,"end":9139.042,"text":"錢去做這個機制所以忍了1213到明年才想說我們來因為其他部會都有陸續的在導入這個CDN以及DNS代管那同時我們也文化部配合數位部的那個治安政策我們也導入了零信任那像我們的這個這個文化幣的部分要跟內政部借接他就要求你要通過零信任你才可以跟他借接所以我們也在導入零信任的機制那同時也配合這一個"},{"start":9139.682,"end":9149.09,"text":"自然韌性的部分會在上網新興技術的導入。所以再請各位委員來支持我們資訊預算增加850萬的原因。謝謝。好,謝謝。在這一幕,各位委員還有沒有要補充的?葛如今委員。"},{"start":9159.149,"end":9182.166,"text":"謝謝 首先感謝文化部 感謝司長跟部長回應本席11月21號的質詢那次質詢我是差點哽咽落淚我相信大家看到文化工作者大家都非常努力在希望創造文化跟藝術的創新我覺得我們應該要支持他們那當時我們有質詢也有臨時提案說希望能夠回應說來研議一位工作者的健康檢查"},{"start":9182.466,"end":9182.906,"text":"第二點是剛剛其實我們所提的"},{"start":9205.529,"end":9233.756,"text":"定型化契約剛剛小野部長也許沒有聽清楚但也許是我沒講清楚所以我再說清楚一點不是說有定型化契約文化部的責任就結束了而是說文化部有這麼多外包的專案委託的案子委外的案子文化部應該要帶頭在合約裡面說我文化部委外的是民脂民膏所以請你們善待文藝工作者所以文化部出去的案子"},{"start":9234.136,"end":9251.502,"text":"曾接的廠商都應該要跟藝文工作者簽訂定型化契約如果文化部自己擬出來的定型化契約自己發出去的案子都沒有做我是作為外包廠商我自己出錢找人家我幹嘛跟他簽啊文化我就講一句啊文化部自己就放個檔案在那邊下載"},{"start":9252.102,"end":9275.059,"text":"他自己都沒有做我為什麼要做所以這個是我提出來為什麼而且我還只是用凍結來提案是說來作為一個這樣的互動所以也許我沒有表達清楚希望部長可以支持文化部應該要帶頭做的事情有很多定型化契約去保障藝文工作者的權益這個其實非常重要因為一旦沒有契約大家都是用講的口說未拼"},{"start":9276.56,"end":9293.121,"text":"這可能還會延伸到所謂外溢的很多負面的問題可能還會有所謂的權勢的這種交流或者是這種比較惡意的這種交流都會在文藝圈當中本來就不應該發生就變成正常所以文化部一定要站出來是"},{"start":9294.002,"end":9295.122,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部基金附"},{"start":9311.287,"end":9331.101,"text":"CDN的技術不用自己研發只要採用人家已經做好的就好了Cloud affair、AWS全部都有什麼DNS代這個置管這都是已經是情之有年的技術所以我想這個不用把它講得好像哇很大啦一定要怎麼樣什麼要有一個專責部門才能做這個"},{"start":9333.763,"end":9351.22,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9351.3,"end":9370.125,"text":"已經存在的計畫已經存在的技術可以直接採納直接採購就可以了不是說要自己建CDN不是說自己要建DNS的系統這個對不起我想您可能是口誤那也許我聽錯那我想我們這邊做一點交流謝謝"},{"start":9371.707,"end":9372.107,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9401.647,"end":9427.227,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9427.227,"end":9449.906,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9449.906,"end":9452.047,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9471.253,"end":9475.176,"text":"學校公共治理語言平權公共治理語言平權公共治理語言平權公共治理語言平權公共治理語言平權"},{"start":9493.951,"end":9514.172,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9514.707,"end":9517.948,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9544.637,"end":9567.644,"text":"如果吳委員我其實是動得比吳委員還多啦那假設我這個至少吳委員的那個他所提的啦那但是我還是尊重昭緯但是我這邊至少吳委員所提但是我心裡大概有這麼大的這個%數我覺得文化部有很大的這個%數需要去努力的這是我真的觀察了一年"},{"start":9568.644,"end":9588.933,"text":"看到文化部你們在這件事情上的作為你們不能把高齡在關上科技然後看起來藝術在應用然後就騙我們這種有專業看不看得出來裡面眉目是什麼的就是你們每次提出來的我真的都一直有在跟你們講所以這邊我最低最低最低一定是吳委員的這個水平那個500萬至少"},{"start":9591.694,"end":9614.19,"text":"但是我尊重召委的一個決定。謝謝。那35萬就依照我們業務單位所說的建議。好嗎?謝謝。好,謝謝倩琪。村長要補充是嗎?好,謝謝倩琪委員對這個議題壯賽的支持我還是跟文化部溝通一下雖然剛剛部長有講你們最近說有辦了八十幾場跟壯賽有關的"},{"start":9616.952,"end":9644.158,"text":"那事實上呢我覺得你們只是把樂齡跟壯士代混在一起而已你們沒有真正認真去探討什麼你們就是說老人就是反正老人啦或者是說權齡啦他是一個很特別的課題這會佔人口一半未來的趨勢我要講說台灣被列為是亞洲國家世代對立最嚴重的國家這是什麼問題這是文化問題"},{"start":9645.798,"end":9663.338,"text":"這個假令我兒子我們在家裡我兒子考我一個說你知道什麼叫KP嗎KP你知道什麼叫KP嗎我說不知道哇他很驚訝你知道我兒子三十幾歲很驚訝他KP是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":9666.118,"end":9690.435,"text":"不是不是,他是韓國的流行文化,就是對,對對對你知道嗎?欸我不知道,他很驚訝,他很驚訝的說,那就是怎麼樣?一種鄙視喔,那沒有,這個就是我們一直在考這個,年輕人會考你一些,那你知道這個流行詞彙是什麼?你不知道對不對?"},{"start":9692.717,"end":9697.22,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9716.491,"end":9733.843,"text":"一直往下降只有推崇年輕文化文化部現在就是唯有年輕文化高舉旗幟但是當你知道你在高舉這個旗幟的時候你是在所有的年齡做歧視歧視到最後的末端就是這些60歲以上的人就當作沒有用的人"},{"start":9734.964,"end":9756.05,"text":"這就是我們的文化元素裡面但是這個社會已經來臨了60歲已經佔人口一半了我們在歧視一半的人口嗎這不是文化重中之重的問題嗎那怎麼講文化部你們還是在歧視他你們還是抱著60歲就沒有用你們還是佔的用的這樣子的所以你跟我講說我有在辦一些老人"},{"start":9756.63,"end":9774.701,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9774.821,"end":9799.885,"text":"為什麼文化部不去調整這個東西你說有 那我更擔心你所有的東西就是錯誤的你沒有正視 講的再怎麼講就是不去正視它因為你的腦袋裡面就是歧視這些人所以這些事情一定要堅持謝謝村城委員我周邊很多六、七十歲的人這次瘋狂在買周杰倫的票好嗎好 文化部有沒有要再補充的"},{"start":9803.211,"end":9817.215,"text":"這最後一個補充就是剛剛葛無忠委員提到那個我們自己的標案如果有跟藝文創作工作者要簽訂定情化契約這個部分這部分我們可以來做到這個剛剛應該部長有說明但沒有講得很清楚這就是我們在標案裡面進行這樣的要求"},{"start":9821.513,"end":9839.413,"text":"兩點快速回應謝謝這個回應非常完整但是我剛剛的請求其實不只是文化部跟單一藝文創作者而是文化部如果有外包的標案就算因為接到標案的可能不是單一文化藝術工作者他很可能是公司"},{"start":9839.873,"end":9858.85,"text":"或者是其他的團體這個是不是待會還是再明確的回應一下這第一點第二點因為剛才我是比較客氣說這個市長可能是講錯了但是我仔細看了一下你們在回應這個關於資訊系統維護跟安全管理的這幾頁的說明因為其實外美林委員趙偉的這個提議其實我也是有連述的"},{"start":9866.898,"end":9867.639,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9885.06,"end":9914.343,"text":"CDN與域名系統DNS已經30年以上了代管的機制也都已經非常成熟我剛剛隨便上網查一下超過20家然後呢甚至有那種月費20塊美金的那當然我們理解政府部會可能有一些其他的考量但是希望不要把它變成是一種這種什麼現在才來做很創新很花錢不是這樣的第二個你們說導入零信任架構你們用的是資安院的技術理論上也不應該說我用資安院的技術我要編列一大筆錢"},{"start":9914.923,"end":9937.449,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9937.549,"end":9938.87,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9966.57,"end":9967.591,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9981.55,"end":10008.069,"text":"如果是委辦或者是標案要求這個承包的廠商跟他所合作的藝文工作者簽訂這個定型化契約這是可以理解的那在這個執行的進程上請委員給我們一點就是就是研議的空間讓我們知道說那個到底會複雜到什麼程度但我們的確會往這個方向前進謝謝齁那剛剛我們提到那個漸減的部分因為是我們的臨時提案那當然有很多委員都支持什麼時候會有結果大概可以讓我們知道一下嗎"},{"start":10011.137,"end":10038.104,"text":"議員說明,因為那個座談會的部分還在進行中,因為有一些藝文工作者還沒有加入座談,所以我們要陸續辦,所以我想說至少給我們三個月的時間,可以嗎?對,謝謝。好,謝謝。我們第二幕所有的委員已經做了很充分的討論,那我們現在來處理。這一幕,主席剛剛看了一下,大概總共是有八個案子。那我們是不是在第二幕的部分,就是統一看大家要動多少或者是刪多少?"},{"start":10044.488,"end":10070.594,"text":"建議動800萬啊我主要是看平均因為蠻多就是動200萬然後200萬200萬那這是少的還要動50萬的那高的最高是林建琦委員動2000多萬嗎然後再來是林建琦委員他第35案是動最多的但是大部分其實平均的500萬的也蠻多的所以那個所以我提議動800萬如何"},{"start":10073.585,"end":10073.845,"text":"其他委員?"},{"start":10090.598,"end":10092.9,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10116.509,"end":10144.423,"text":"我應該都...請原政委員我覺得平均有點奇怪啦因為每個案子有不同的狀況啦應該針對案子來看譬如說像我剛剛我其實只有一個案子就是主要針對資訊設備的那應該就是要告訴我們說到底這個錢花的值得嗎所以我只是覺得一樣一樣如果以後平均的話那大家以後都凍結故意寫很高來平均就好了啊好還有沒有其他委員處理的方式上面大家還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":10145.95,"end":10171.53,"text":"沒有那文化部再做說明一下是這樣委員跟委員做報告我們是建議整目來做凍結但是委員提的每一個案子我們還是一樣會做報告跟說明我們並沒有因為它是整目所以就不去就每一案來做說明所以每一案的說明我們還是會進行但是建議就是整目做一個凍結這樣可能在說明上也會比較容易"},{"start":10173.786,"end":10176.608,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10201.288,"end":10222.449,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10222.449,"end":10244.019,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10244.079,"end":10244.699,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10269.873,"end":10283.983,"text":"好 謝謝支援委員我來綜合大家的意見我想等一下在審每一幕的時候呢審他的方式其實還是會再尊重大家一次那按照每一幕不同的這個預算案的這個狀況那我們做來調整那在這一幕的部分的話綜合規劃業務2億7519萬3千元那我們已經討論完畢了當然我想我們絕對不是去抓那個平均數這種事情"},{"start":10294.77,"end":10317.329,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10317.469,"end":10341.026,"text":"在這一幕還是有委員有提到要剪裂所以第一個剪裂的部分大家有沒有要處理那第二個凍結的部分的話現在有委員提出來說是不是整幕凍結800萬就好那當然我們尊重說慶祺委員也有認為說30%大概就是2000多萬那我們當然希望我們的凍結數讓這個文化部在這一幕當中他可以就是去做一個調整所以這個整個數額來講"},{"start":10342.807,"end":10360.691,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10362.58,"end":10362.76,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10386.744,"end":10389.309,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10399.185,"end":10425.19,"text":"接下來我們來審第三幕文化資源的業務這一幕案子其實很多從36案一直到85案如果我們要用節來看的話到74案因為到84案這裡也蠻多的我想我們是不是一樣就到74案剩下的10案的話我們做第二階段好不好我們現在開始第三幕36案到74案"},{"start":10426.63,"end":10427.191,"text":"范芸委員、芝恩委員"},{"start":10440.155,"end":10465.261,"text":"對對對然後那個盧俊偉我們一直在這樣下去這是我今天的第一個案子這43案是針對文化部在那個促轉會解散之後應該要做的不議以止的研究跟審議的工作那因為我們教育文化委員會不議以止的這個法還沒有通過因為我們現在正在處理預算那我希望說不管這個法有沒有機會儘速通過"},{"start":10467.341,"end":10468.122,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":10482.538,"end":10507.79,"text":"今年12月已經完成26處的調研目前你們有64處那115年底會整個完成這個64處的這個潛在的不移植那我是肯定你們不斷有在努力那但是還是有一些包含我們臺灣警備總部那這個部分還有金門地區的白色恐怖的移植這些那還有當年威權政府的強制勞動"},{"start":10509.951,"end":10511.913,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10527.366,"end":10528.868,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10550.196,"end":10550.657,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10565.196,"end":10582.995,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":10583.175,"end":10605.745,"text":"整個在科技方面跟整個呈現的部分其實比我們的景美人權管我認為就是花的資源景美人權管我覺得很用心但是你如果就資源比如說你每一個受害者你只要一點一個鍵找出他的名字就會有他數位的完整的生命故事那讓大家看到他不是只是一個受難者他是一個"},{"start":10606.425,"end":10607.806,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10623.942,"end":10643.66,"text":"那這個部分就是所以我在第43案這邊希望能夠凍結那另外就是陳秀寶委員他有兩案一個是關於文化基地一個是關於就是就是文化古蹟的修復人才那他也非常的關切那他希望能夠一起並動請我幫他表達以上謝謝好謝謝范雲委員接著我們請志恩委員"},{"start":10652.405,"end":10652.585,"text":"政策白皮書"},{"start":10669.753,"end":10689.036,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10689.036,"end":10712.363,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10712.543,"end":10714.305,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10728.843,"end":10729.783,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10751.01,"end":10760.333,"text":"你真的不服使用嗎?你可不可以提供一些數據來告訴我這三個管目前不行而且典藏中心你們要經費是要10億欸這個10億為什麼需要10億你如果按照國發會那個檔案庫房重新裝修的設置的經費估算喔根據國發會的喔這應該算蠻準的喔458坪你大概需要4337.6萬元把它查出來那你如今需要9200坪"},{"start":10777.739,"end":10795.265,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10795.365,"end":10814.582,"text":"非同小可十億的經費更何況這個大家提到的他的那個整個的效益跟急迫性到底在如何需要我們在這個會期通過嗎所以我個人認為以十億來說凍結一億要求這些的解釋應該是非常合理的我們先是先第一解嗎好那先講到這邊"},{"start":10816.752,"end":10842.277,"text":"好 謝謝知恩委員接著我們請儒君委員謝謝本席在第三幕有三個提案第59案是關於博物館購置藏品的議題那我們之前諮詢也提過根據文化部所提供的資料所屬的11個館舍當中有多達8個館舍已經3年沒有購置任何一件藏品那我們詢問以後發現其實是購置程序、購藏程序自己"},{"start":10842.717,"end":10846.238,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10871.826,"end":10875.932,"text":"第6、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第6、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第6、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10887.89,"end":10897.072,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10916.036,"end":10933.574,"text":"對於這一點本席要給予文化部及相關管社一個正面的肯定也希望文化部幫忙加強去做告知讓民眾可以多多使用線上展覽的服務另外第62案是關於國立歷史博物館的無障礙空間規劃不夠完善以及文物展示比例過低的問題"},{"start":10934.275,"end":10936.936,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":10953.862,"end":10979.321,"text":"實用輪椅需要搭乘的話則會開放貨梯去解決搭乘電梯的需求把貨梯變成一個多元的電梯這一點本席或多功能的電梯這一點本席特別再次要求使博館要主動注意身障的朋友是否需要這樣的服務否則一般是不會知道的需要管方主動提出這一點還是需要請使博館特別注意我想幾點上面是我們這邊的一個出發點"},{"start":10982.003,"end":10984.265,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11008.882,"end":11024.102,"text":"67案的博物地方藝文場館深耕計畫這裡我要凍結3000萬所以凍結的都比較多主要的我還是提醒一下就是"},{"start":11025.677,"end":11051.326,"text":"根據文化部的調查過去參與各類博物館參與比例壯士在去博物館的比例沒有去的高達七成三超過七成沒有在參與這一些博物館的活動那為什麼沒有參與那這可能也要去去因為你的內容"},{"start":11053.025,"end":11070.612,"text":"內容還有包括這些深耕的這部分另外也要提醒這個高齡化接下來我們現在到處廣設這些博物館但是人口的累減台灣現在人口是走下來未來50年會減少將近1000萬人"},{"start":11075.359,"end":11079.16,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11097.483,"end":11119.582,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11120.41,"end":11126.154,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11148.889,"end":11166.924,"text":"提出這一些的計畫出來。好,謝謝春晨委員。那我們有請那個倩熙委員。那下一位我們請雅玲。好,謝謝昭偉。那我這邊有幾案應該分別是46、51、55、64跟66還有那個73。好,那醫務單位這邊有來做一下說明。那我先就這個"},{"start":11178.613,"end":11204.803,"text":"50應該是55第55案那這個在說明的部分我們有談到在文化資源的這個投入那目前很大一部分都是在處理這個科技性的VRAR沉浸式的這樣一個展示但是我這邊對於我還是講那個人權博物館對於人權的定義還有人權指標的這個差異這是我對於這個博物館那個資源分配上"},{"start":11205.363,"end":11208.224,"text":"第12屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會"},{"start":11234.093,"end":11254.91,"text":"注意到大家集體的記憶跟牆面你們如果做某一些你們所謂的這個設施然後在這個牆面還有它結構體的這個部分大家視覺上障礙的部分那我想管社這邊也有給我們一些承諾我們希望之後能夠很詳實的把它做到"},{"start":11256.288,"end":11273.848,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11273.988,"end":11277.311,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11293.528,"end":11309.286,"text":"從前瞻一直到現在基本上還是有某一些補助上的性質但是我們覺得這個內容在你們後來提出來的這個內容上我還是有一些質疑啦你們走的這三個方向所以這個台灣內容就有點我們在講台灣的語言這個區塊我覺得"},{"start":11310.908,"end":11316.915,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":11329.548,"end":11357.09,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11357.51,"end":11358.771,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11379.64,"end":11380.681,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11401.271,"end":11420.998,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11421.599,"end":11444.038,"text":"這個強化公共服務資源及營造友善使用環境的責任所以我們希望說這些受領補助單位他是可以提供在長社展的部分提供國家語言翻譯及導覽的服務不過因為這個單位有來做溝通也非常願意做所以我們原本是凍結500萬但是我們可以併案來處理也可以改成主決議這部分我們沒有堅持謝謝"},{"start":11446.588,"end":11455.926,"text":"謝謝雅琳我們接下來請是秀寶還是你要先我們先請玉琴委員下一位我們請秀寶委員"},{"start":11457.281,"end":11463.443,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11487.194,"end":11487.535,"text":"那第74案"},{"start":11492.298,"end":11518.07,"text":"第七十四案就是我是覺得可以凍結一百萬或者是等一下大家可以討論一下那在這個112年雖然有達標但是針對這兩項的一個指標就是推動地方創生事業跟這個147項以及這個吸引青年留青年留返鄉的這個推動地方創生"},{"start":11519.19,"end":11539.243,"text":"相較在111年執行的成果其實是下滑的喔那還有一個經濟的一個空間啦好那另外在這個84案的部分這個部分可以改成主決議因為有來特別那個我們那個還沒齁對我們還沒有我們現在到74案好謝謝好以上好秀巴委員"},{"start":11546.309,"end":11573.97,"text":"謝謝主席在第三幕這邊我有兩個案子一個是第47案一個是52案那47案的部分是文化資產業務推動與輔導向下的社區營造及村落文化的發展這個部分的預算有3億1000多萬那我提供的金額是500萬那文化部這邊是有來說明就是說百大基地的徵選簡章是在11月27號發布那預計在明年的4月底會完成評選"},{"start":11575.431,"end":11584.18,"text":"每個案子的獎勵額都是50萬,以及除了光是這個百大基地本身這個設置的預算就有5000多萬我會希望說文化部你們編列這麼多的預算來推動這個新方案要連結地方歷史文化應該也要綜合的評估現有的文化資產以及文化的場域再去評選這個百大基地這個位置"},{"start":11595.111,"end":11625.111,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11625.491,"end":11649.406,"text":"深文化資源業務推廣與輔導向下的關於文化設施設置與規劃文化部有來說明目前定地的傳統匠師每天3922元是最低薪資參考是有研議要再提升而且也是從今年開始辦理傳統匠師納入國家文化資產保存的獎項也會加速辦理傳統匠師的審查"},{"start":11651.167,"end":11652.449,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11668.627,"end":11671.689,"text":"我會希望說文化部這邊還是要更加積極的辦理就是相關的業務那這個案子我的52、47一起跟其他委員可以討論並動的金額因為我會希望說你們對這個業務能夠更加積極那後續你們這個相關的這個策進的作為也必須要給我一份書面的報告以上"},{"start":11688.936,"end":11717.569,"text":"好謝謝那我們在場的委員都有發言過了那主席這裡話在這一幕的74案之前是48案50案53案63案以及72案那我想待會都跟大家一起來並案處理那在這個請文化部做說明之前主席先宣告我們在74案也就是在第一節處理完之後我們休息一個小時然後之後再回來繼續審預算"},{"start":11718.709,"end":11728.633,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11746.749,"end":11769.633,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11769.713,"end":11772.737,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11785.175,"end":11785.835,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":11807.882,"end":11812.744,"text":"基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11837.395,"end":11844.752,"text":"建設完成我想至少需要兩到三年的時間所以這個部分我想我們會有更詳細的資料會再來提供給委員來作為一個參考"},{"start":11846.001,"end":11851.844,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11871.715,"end":11872.976,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":11893.791,"end":11907.761,"text":"的典藏那這些典藏如果透過科具的應用也好或是再轉譯然後讓大家可以來禁用然後更容易去理解台灣整個內容有一個豐富的一個典藏這個部分是我們未來希望能夠繼續來做開發的一個部分"},{"start":11911.275,"end":11933.542,"text":"政策擺平書其實我們11月12號已經送到行政院齁那這個部分我們會努力讓行政院能夠他現在是在會檢一件會檢一件完如果我們有什麼意見我想我們會努力一定讓明年我們希望明年能夠讓政策發表書因為這個部分已經送了其實努力在溝通中阿所以現在我們盡量這部分案子在那邊太多我會稍微再跟他溝通"},{"start":11940.523,"end":11960.83,"text":"那另外有一些包括人權博物館或是歷史博物館部門是不是請各博物館來做回應那個歷史博物館的部分那個62案葛如軍委員關切的有關我們博物館重新開館以後有關生意障礙這個相關的問題那我們也跟葛委員報告過了就是我們會"},{"start":11961.51,"end":11977.466,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11978.006,"end":12005.505,"text":"應該明年第二季以後會重新調整過另外有關林倩琦委員關心的這個展覽內容也是一樣我們有關歷史文庫跟當代藝術的這個相關的這個我們會重新再去做調整因為有一些特展會到明年大概第一季的時候就會到期那我們會再去做適度的調整另外有關這個集體記憶的部分我們目前也做了這個走廊的這個導覽等等"},{"start":12008.47,"end":12013.463,"text":"參觀民眾可以看到荷花池這部分我們陸續在改善中以上報告謝謝"},{"start":12016.361,"end":12037.723,"text":"人權管補充說明,有關法委員關心不移植的調研,這部分我們還有持續在做。我們現在大概針對金門地區的移植,還有執行總隊,還有這個所謂的澎湖農場,我們都持續在做一個處理。那我們本身也建立了國家人權記憶庫,就是說針對每一個人的過往的故事,現在我們網站上也是可以看得到的。以上。"},{"start":12042.67,"end":12043.03,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12065.333,"end":12080.52,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12080.52,"end":12102.91,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12102.91,"end":12125.52,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12125.9,"end":12126.28,"text":"議員主席羅廷偉委員"},{"start":12153.899,"end":12175.606,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12175.686,"end":12204.547,"text":"科藝新創意新計劃這個部分我覺得相關的計劃當中具有高度的同質性跟關聯性我們在這個現階段並沒有明確的區分執行的一個項目我覺得這個政策的目標跟服務的對象定位模糊我希望這個部分能夠再有更具體的不要讓我們感覺到這個資源是不是重疊啊疊床架屋甚至是運用效益的不彰有可能會去整個影響到整體的行政效能所以我這邊是提出凍結一千萬"},{"start":12208.469,"end":12224.757,"text":"第二屆、第三屆我們現在還沒有處理到。我們到第一屆等74案。我們八一案等到下午。好,我們有沒有其他的委員針對第三目74案之前,就是第一屆的部分還有意見?范議員委員。"},{"start":12227.618,"end":12248.459,"text":"第43項不予移植的部分,我是覺得那個剛剛的答覆還是沒有跟我對焦啊。我主要就是擔心你們那個相關的量能不足嘛,因為你們這個預算只有500萬,那不予移植潛在的還這麼多,那還沒有被你們列入的,其實也還不知道你們的工作能量怎麼樣。"},{"start":12249.199,"end":12263.454,"text":"當然你有提到說審議作業會有那個國發會的促進轉型正義基金業務但是以我之前看到的就是說地方政府其實積極的地方政府非常少那你這個是不是來補助他們"},{"start":12265.275,"end":12267.217,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12292.498,"end":12321.6,"text":"研究我看以從學術的角度是很少很少的錢以上我跟委員補充一下對不起我們再先請佩儀委員我提案同樣是60案跟65萬60案就同樣是我們博物館法104年公佈之後那我們一直到了你們剛剛講說11月我們才把我們這個博物館的白皮書有抱怨那我是希望說下一次你們抱怨之前是不是因為委員大家都很關心"},{"start":12322.381,"end":12341.267,"text":"那我一定是要網羅民間很重要的意見希望可以多多的來跟我們溝通那第二個我的案子65案是有關於國立歷史博物館我希望他在營運上面可以更加強他的在地性那甚至不只是社區也應該要來強化跟我們全國的學校學生青少年來協助他們更加了解我們的自己的歷史"},{"start":12349.83,"end":12356.671,"text":"那因為這一案因為國務卿博已經有來跟我說明明你已經有提及個具體的計畫所以這案我就改成主決議好了謝謝好我們再請國務卿委員是謝謝齁那剛才經過這樣的良性互動齁我想第61案有聽到相關正面的回應啦齁那第62案呢也館長直接說明了齁我們也都認為這個這兩個案子61、62呢"},{"start":12376.955,"end":12404.22,"text":"本席不堅持可以改為主決議也感謝文化部及相關管社的館長迅速的改進也希望文化部這邊持續的追蹤後續的情形將一些相關的報告未來可以提供給本席但是第59案因為文化部這邊我也理解需要一年的時間去修改相關的這個構場的規範但也希望能夠有一定的動力去積極的辦理"},{"start":12405.64,"end":12413.655,"text":"在這一個案子呢我想第59案我的簡略的這個要求我是可以不堅持但我想凍結的部分也還是希望能夠保留謝謝"},{"start":12416.012,"end":12416.152,"text":"主席"},{"start":12443.707,"end":12461.635,"text":"預算數應該是1億對不對那文化部有沒有意見我們就一樣喔就是這一節我們並按統統第一個我們希望不要簡列哪一個哪一個不要簡列第一個是我的原則希望大家不要簡列第二個是那個凍結的數"},{"start":12464.684,"end":12486.698,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12487.372,"end":12488.273,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12502.483,"end":12532.483,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12532.483,"end":12533.904,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12561.186,"end":12561.626,"text":"主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":12577.039,"end":12577.68,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12597.919,"end":12618.679,"text":"首府大學雖然現在的公建計畫還在行政院但是我們確定是首府的進駐單位因為原先這個進駐的代管的單位是台南市政府所以這個的協調包括從寶二調整到國家檢討中心這件事情是跟台南地方政府做完協調之後得到了一個結果"},{"start":12619.119,"end":12621.461,"text":"所屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":12645.422,"end":12645.723,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12661.67,"end":12663.731,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12682.739,"end":12711.391,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12711.687,"end":12720.535,"text":"包括包括那個看一下嘛如果照范雲委員的想法就是每個時候都拿個平均值來去看一下的話你看這邊有凍結3000萬的有凍結500的有凍結百分之二十要凍結十分之一的我個人認為是不是3000萬"},{"start":12730.293,"end":12730.914,"text":"教育及文化委員"},{"start":12745.632,"end":12763.825,"text":"做公益然後最好是跟教育文化相關所以我個人其實對自償率並沒有太多的意見但是我想他希望更詳細的資料那你們能夠之後跟科資委員好好的報告當然很重要因為他一定是覺得這裡面有什麼不完善的部分但是凍結我是覺得那個因為去年我們才凍1000萬所以是不是今年就1200萬之類的"},{"start":12770.35,"end":12796.903,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12801.076,"end":12816.07,"text":"目前這一幕到第一節的地方除了柯志恩委員原來說要在他第69案凍結1億但是他現在說整幕3000萬他可以接受不過我們這樣看這裡本來凍結是1億可是前面有幾個案子"},{"start":12816.77,"end":12817.751,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12833.209,"end":12861.806,"text":"科政委員他剛才總動3000萬這件事情應該還可以接受因為他自己的部分他可以從1億意思也就是說他可以減到1000萬或2000萬但是其他的案子其實還有一些需要動所以同動3000萬看大家有沒有意見1500萬好不好我剛剛已經沒有去看看大家的意見那現在就是那個部長是說希望1000萬那法院委員是說1500萬但是那個科政委員提議3000萬其他的委員有沒有意見"},{"start":12863.761,"end":12863.961,"text":"主席"},{"start":12875.686,"end":12875.826,"text":"三、繼續審查"},{"start":12894.563,"end":12895.304,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":12920.54,"end":12949.542,"text":"好,我自己是,剛剛柯志恩委員是三千萬嘛,我覺得他專業的評估啦,有他的一個道理,那我覺得我是附議這個柯志恩委員的三千萬,那也希望能夠趕快督促,我想凍結不是洪水猛獸,凍結只是希望趕快改進,然後提出報告就可以解凍了,就可以凍之了,我們要的是能夠真正有具體的一個作為,不是說要把它癱瘓,所以我們希望部會能夠看到我們的利益良善。"},{"start":12950.282,"end":12950.443,"text":"主席"},{"start":12961.298,"end":12990.034,"text":"這一幕相關單位是有來跟我說明不過部長您說您這邊很認真但我看到您的同仁是很認真我自己沒有感受到我講實在話每次都是我追著您在問業務第二個部分是剛才召委這邊本來是一億後來尊重專業變成三千不好意思我是新人我不知道這樣子的額度跟首先凍結就像田委講的不是洪水猛獸"},{"start":12991.316,"end":12999.093,"text":"我們也希望在凍結的狀況下能夠相對跟整個部裡面在推動業務是齊平了解"},{"start":13000.56,"end":13028.695,"text":"究竟你們是怎麼做的然後在某一些狀況下我們可以在方向上大家比較聚焦但是剛才召委這邊本來才是要1億然後科委員這邊說了3000萬那我覺得3000對我來講已經是一個底線了那我不知道3000再變成1000多如果都是依照以前的慣例那我想我們就都依照以前慣例好了我們都不用再浪費時間在這邊"},{"start":13030.196,"end":13051.954,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13052.335,"end":13059.987,"text":"這邊我或許可以希望有一個回應跟答案那不過部長不好意思喔你的同仁是很認真但是我真的沒有感受到謝謝"},{"start":13062.291,"end":13081.707,"text":"謝謝倩琦我先回答一下倩琦委員講的我覺得我們不會去依循慣例但會參考過去在預算審查上面我們在預算上面的處理以及他們後來對這筆預算執行的狀況我們會參考但不會依循而來決定部長是不是要再補充說明一下部長我想請柯委員幫我們一下就是我們折衷1500好嗎"},{"start":13092.691,"end":13093.913,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":13105.186,"end":13129.296,"text":"部長應該是這樣子啊,剛才柯正委員是說3000啦,然後那個范瑀委員是說1500啦,那吳佩儀委員是說1000啦,那您剛剛這邊是說1000,但是我想剛才我們也有兩位委員是支持3000喔,那就是羅廷薇委員、林倩琴委員、吳春成委員都是支持3000,那所以看那個部長是不是如果3000萬然後用書面還是您有其他的想法?"},{"start":13135.52,"end":13139.362,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":13148.643,"end":13178.643,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":13178.743,"end":13182.606,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會"},{"start":13200.421,"end":13201.101,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":13227.534,"end":13228.334,"text":"第49案陳秀寶的案子,這一案撤案。"},{"start":13254.401,"end":13273.485,"text":"五十七案改成主決議六十一案、六十二案、國務軍委員案都是改成主決議六十五案、吳佩奕委員也改成主決議六十八案張雅琳委員"},{"start":13277.591,"end":13278.312,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":17046.749,"end":17068.166,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":17071.4,"end":17084.413,"text":"76和83的概念都是一樣的。76是鐵道博物館。鐵道博物館基本上是得來不易了,因為是在第9任的時候在政立軍部長那時候我有在。"},{"start":17084.974,"end":17111.323,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17111.443,"end":17116.485,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":17136.394,"end":17152.325,"text":"哇塞 這個東西都是在我以前第9任的時候就已經是開始有了但是現在都還是都只能期待哈所以我也希望說到底這個配套有沒有做好那你114年預算1億那我只凍結了500萬我說實在這是因為給大家看空間因為我們真的很期待他看到所以我覺得這個東西後續你必須要特別再拿出來然後報告這些進度我覺得這個才可以才算數了好不好"},{"start":17164.916,"end":17166.622,"text":"這兩案其實類型是一樣的。謝謝。好,謝謝政務委員、培育委員。"},{"start":17173.137,"end":17202.239,"text":"好 謝謝主席很感謝文化部在我們提這麼多案子都有事先來溝通可是幾個我比較關心的點我還是要再次強調一個是文化部這幾年輔導國內文化產業還有文創司的定位還有其他業務單位的互動我們認為有很多事情其實完成度並不高相關的配套其實也不夠好我們認為喊文創產業這件事情後續的很多配套還有往前更多的想像我們都認為可以更加的努力"},{"start":17202.859,"end":17226.629,"text":"那再來就是不管是民間或是文創司還有文策院還有國發基金益助資源的部分會看投資效益可是例如說回到出版品這樣非常特殊的文化產業品項它可能是文創內容的基礎可是這些基礎好像都沒有在國家政策的視野當中我們其實覺得很可惜那我們希望未來的相關政策方向還有投資目標都不需要適當的調整跟滾動調整"},{"start":17227.931,"end":17233.21,"text":"那接下來89案關於文創私我們提了非常多內容包含其實已經很多"},{"start":17234.671,"end":17236.273,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17260.134,"end":17280.488,"text":"發展自己的主體性這件事情非常的重要當然我們知道你們後續排了考察然後也做了很多的座談但是是不是真的有到位我都覺得還是有很多努力的空間以上謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請沒有人要舉手來那哪位準備好了"},{"start":17283.041,"end":17307.864,"text":"倩熙委員在這一幕結裡面我還是在85嘛那我就針對那個兒童未來館那這個部分我要提醒一下因為在你們在說明的時候我還是有跟你們講就是兒童未來館你們現在除了未來的硬體工程那目前應該在館設的這個準備當中的文化活動裡面你們要注意一下那個對象"},{"start":17308.484,"end":17335.308,"text":"就兒童未來管的對象不是只有兒童喔就是要了解兒童這是很重要的一點很重要的一點所以成人怎麼樣知道兒童的權益我覺得這應該是你們要放的重點就像在眷村那許多人離開了眷村投入了護國保家的這樣一個事務但是留在眷村裡面的很多都是女性所以對於兒童的權益真正要理解的是"},{"start":17337.898,"end":17352.313,"text":"而同以外的沒有注意到兒童權益的人那我覺得在這個焦點上兒童未來館應該好好的在詮釋論述還有對象加以更深入的一個瞭解好嗎謝謝好我們請疫情委員"},{"start":17358.004,"end":17383.027,"text":"好那這個部分還有那個84案喔那之前其實有來我們辦公室有特別在做了一個說明那目前改成主決議是沒有問題但目前了解就是8月底的執行率只有51.14%那這個部分我覺得可能有稍微有一點點落後那不知道這個最新的進度如何那如果有更新的一個進程的話"},{"start":17384.448,"end":17386.429,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17408.226,"end":17410.827,"text":"國家兒童未來管預算金費在過去幾年當中一直有陸續增加,可是我覺得現在我們整個進度其實是落後。"},{"start":17433.815,"end":17435.396,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17462.155,"end":17486.117,"text":"關於額外館預算應該是還在控制內包括設計師等等我們到現在的狀況還是在狀況內不會暫時沒有考慮會操之進度完全在原來計劃中9月份提出規劃設計請專家學者討論完到了年底會再提一個所以整個明年還會一整年做細部規劃"},{"start":17487.458,"end":17491.38,"text":"主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":17511.493,"end":17534.974,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17534.994,"end":17535.614,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17555.11,"end":17581.366,"text":"年底會把牆壁打掉開張明年六月會開三分之一吧還是二分之一左右OK那我想請兩位幫我再仔細解釋一下主席還有委員好那非常關切我們鐵駁目前的籌備進度那因為我們當初是用全區保存分區修復分區開放的這樣的策略那剛剛部長也稍微提到我們現在的工程大概外牆或者是一些景觀年底會把它先做一個一階段的整備"},{"start":17582.046,"end":17598.636,"text":"那開幕的目前的規劃大約在明年的夏天的時候會有第一階段那開放的面積因為我們現在全區是16.79的國定古蹟大約接近三分之一的面積有一些管設或者是乘車體驗軌道的一些修復"},{"start":17599.356,"end":17622.373,"text":"會在明年我們所預計的這樣的一個時程等對外做正式的一個開放所以這個時間點我們是努力的朝這方向進行那剛剛有提到這四題裡面其實所有委員都關切到我們物件清查那物件清查確實當初臺北機場留下來的時候遺留了非常多的物件我們目前依照現在進度我們年底可以達到全部的清查的數量70%剩下的我們在"},{"start":17626.076,"end":17649.544,"text":"持續的召開專業委員會的審議明年就可以把所有的物件清查以及清查之後的物件的審議的分級分類都會在明年的114年度全部完成那完成之後我們陸陸續續其實在我們的網頁或者是我們的SNS有稍微介紹我們一些物件清查的一些有趣的物件成果逐步的對外來做一些說明那我們也都會在我們的接下來的導覽過程裡面都有"},{"start":17652.925,"end":17654.906,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立"},{"start":17667.381,"end":17670.422,"text":"國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":17694.989,"end":17695.49,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17720.572,"end":17750.572,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17752.022,"end":17781.869,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17784.309,"end":17802.91,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17803.05,"end":17806.031,"text":"嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴重嚴"},{"start":17828.424,"end":17829.524,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":17848.479,"end":17851.94,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17874.673,"end":17874.953,"text":"二、繼續審查"},{"start":17905.153,"end":17914.277,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17932.218,"end":17946.863,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17960.267,"end":17968.233,"text":"然後84案規權委員案改組決議我們繼續進行到第四幕文化創意產業發展業務我們這個案子是從86案到124案就整個第四幕全部一起處理"},{"start":17990.029,"end":17991.19,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18011.912,"end":18037.99,"text":"我覺得空總文化實驗場這個在我們當初是討論得沸沸揚揚因為那是我們大安區的蛋黃區中的蛋黃所以說呢我們大家都很給予他非常大的一個期待不過那時候我們也雖然提出了非常多我們當所有考所concern的包括在這個地方你沒有達到一個積極的效用你的所用的使用頻率等等之類的我必須要很遺憾的說當初我們所有委員你可以調過去的會議記錄是有關切的"},{"start":18040.211,"end":18041.432,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18058.2,"end":18088.097,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18088.157,"end":18110.693,"text":"真的沒有看到我們所說的使用率等等之類,目前為止,誠如我們那時候所提到的,這個東西文化部真的要做出一個說明,雖然那不是理事院部長任內的部分,但是既然承接了這樣一個角色,你是不是要給我們一個交代?然後呢,在有關115案,當然是大家非常關切的這個有關文化幣的部分嘛,那到11月底有82%,差不多123萬人,那使用率,"},{"start":18114.735,"end":18142.931,"text":"說實在的但是我還是要提醒還是有27.2萬人沒有領取那文化部到底有沒有了解到底為什麼然後到底是怎麼樣來改進那你預算編的19億5000萬其實這個數字很多如果因為文化幣的使用能夠確確達到當初我們所希望能夠達到的提振大家的文化素養我覺得沒有問題但是你還是有將近這麼多的人沒有領取而且在使用的規準上面"},{"start":18143.351,"end":18144.393,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18164.09,"end":18187.362,"text":"首先我先聲明文創私我的問題沒有得到一些回應所以我這邊的問題我的項目是98跟112、122這個文創我們在早期大家都會把它跟這個園區想像在一起"},{"start":18189.801,"end":18211.887,"text":"我先直接講待會希望我在每一個議題上都能夠聽到很具體的回應包括淨零減碳因為你們有一部分也是在做相關的文化產業的淨零減碳這個文創其實我們在論述上十幾年來一直20年來一直有在變化所以我先談大家最早的一個想像的連結就是園區據我們資料這邊的了解花蓮園區"},{"start":18217.708,"end":18233.719,"text":"目前虧損也很高常常在委外辦理都失敗我自己常待的嘉義園區從20年前一直關心這個園區一直到現在也是常常很難委外"},{"start":18234.753,"end":18236.594,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18261.053,"end":18262.695,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18278.018,"end":18292.378,"text":"我還是針對文創的部分因為吳春城委員請我下午也幫他發一點言就是說你們在文創園區他這邊其實有提到有關於壯世代的一個相關的這個發展也請你們在文創園區裡面可以有一些勞動"},{"start":18293.499,"end":18294.32,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18309.616,"end":18310.536,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18327.885,"end":18331.727,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18350.629,"end":18353.932,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":18371.505,"end":18392.455,"text":"在台灣有點悲催一個東西一個事件一個專業如果一旦被分到兩個以上不同的單位就變成踢皮球那多個業務單位共管就會變成皮球大賽變成沒有人要管要預算的時候大家都要要KPI提出成果的時候大家都互踢皮球"},{"start":18393.075,"end":18403.184,"text":"就像審計部報告裡面講的這是審計部報告裡面說的自110年起辦理5G文化科技人才培育跨運用計劃計劃期間從110年到113年總經費有高達3億1875萬"},{"start":18409.409,"end":18414.155,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18426.61,"end":18439.194,"text":"那這個辦理文化科技黑客送的活動也是利益良善但是選拔出優秀的團隊呢辦了兩屆12個團隊居然只有兩個團隊有進行後續的媒合所以我想我們在這裡呢就會想要請教部長就是說114年文化部對於文化科技新興藝術也是屬於剛剛有提到文創師裡面的一個任務之一有沒有什麼具體的規劃如果沒有規劃這幾十億的錢我想台灣不能說"},{"start":18456.52,"end":18469.847,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18481.673,"end":18505.153,"text":"但是我們其實要關注的是我們是有一個禮金是要給青年的其實青年也都很希望能夠得到一些協助那為什麼有高達將近20%五個裡面就有一個青年是沒有領取文化成年禮金的文化部有沒有調查過原因那我們自己了解一下因為畢竟這是屬於虛擬世界的範疇所以我特別關注"},{"start":18505.794,"end":18508.176,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18523.268,"end":18539.629,"text":"負上身份證明文件提出向客服提出申請還要在審核通過再引導他到網頁專區輸入相關資訊再身份驗證然後再讓他登入專區去列印紙本老實說,我不知道部長有沒有了解過"},{"start":18540.45,"end":18565.94,"text":"年輕人現在宿舍或者家裡有印表機的到底有多少人?那當你說有iPhone啊那又要再讓他花錢嗎?還沒領到禮金就要先花自己的錢嗎?那我想現在有很多的這個火車票啦、高鐵票啦、演唱會的票都可以直接取票、便利店取票為什麼我們理用文化部立的方式好像上一個世代要我們剛已經講很長了啦什麼客服申請、列印紙本"},{"start":18567.08,"end":18568.701,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18588.097,"end":18608.387,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":18614.875,"end":18643.846,"text":"好謝謝召委我對於這個我是105案那我想這次所編列的713最主要呢該分支的一個計畫是補助行政院我們的文策院的一個經費辦理引導多元的一個資金帶動產業動人那其實在這個凍結的過程當中我會提這個案是我有去稍微所知我想問一下文政院董事長我們是不是創投大概有200多案對不對"},{"start":18646.852,"end":18671.647,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18671.687,"end":18679.192,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18698.407,"end":18700.928,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18723.935,"end":18749.378,"text":"沙漾、雨中的疫情這一些其實本日公休其實本日公休在這些東西我稍微來看到其中有一項跟你們做一個探討政港分局他提到的是NEGFEST上線首日空降台灣本日節目排行第一名我們不是講國際嗎然後你跟我講台灣本日節目排行第一名"},{"start":18750.871,"end":18754.012,"text":"國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18774.801,"end":18800.599,"text":"到底實際有多少運用得宜甚至有協助到產業在國際競爭力能夠有所真正發展我們支持文策院在投資本土產業甚至協助本土產業帶動量能我們都支持所以我也希望這個凍結五千萬能夠再給予我更多的一個報告讓我能夠充分的了解文策院的用心良苦之後"},{"start":18801.6,"end":18804.602,"text":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第13屆第4會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18820.424,"end":18846.32,"text":"110案其實剛剛其他的委員都有提到這就是我們的文化幣我簡單說一個數據那112年文化禮金的政策當中符合領取的資格98萬.5人那至113年6月仍有超過11萬人未領取他的未領取的比率達到11.27但是在113年的時候政策推行當中儘管擴大發放了150萬人"},{"start":18848.041,"end":18876.297,"text":"但是未領取的比例卻高達了21.45所以我們看到這些未能夠顯著的達成促進藝文活動多樣化的參與之目的而且文化幣已經有濫用有多組的這個605組的疑似帳戶轉售的一個問題還有29家的消費點涉嫌違規部分還在調查當中這些問題已經嚴重影響到這個政策在執行的公信力"},{"start":18876.937,"end":18898.148,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18898.208,"end":18900.35,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18921.106,"end":18937.542,"text":"在這個部分雖然我本席沒有提案但是我有連署幾個案件那其實主要我還是關心這兩個議題第一個議題五大文創園區其實我從12年前在嘉義市政府擔任文化局長的時候就跟嘉義市的文創園區有非常好的一個聯繫跟互動"},{"start":18939.023,"end":18963.148,"text":"全台灣、台北、台中、嘉義、台南、花蓮五大文創園區其實到目前為止說最熱鬧的還是華山但是不要忘記嘉義市的文創園區其實是有我們台灣保留最完整的高良酒的、制酒的機械設備那個時候我們就想到是說其實可以用這種AR、VR的這樣的一個"},{"start":18964.434,"end":18964.694,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18984.684,"end":18985.084,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19000.134,"end":19015.572,"text":"成熟的一個營運的一個模式方向這個是我期待文化部能夠提出來做到的那另外第二個部分就是針對文化幣的部分我們總共稅出188億文化部但是關文化幣的部分其實佔了快10%"},{"start":19017.099,"end":19045.684,"text":"那文化幣從過去到現在也已經三年多的一個時間推出三年那我想要請教部長因為之前也有新聞講是說你上任之後還想要再擴大文化幣的一個發放那當然對於青少年來講文化的參與我們絕對都支持我們也都希望可是發錢當然是好事啊可是另一點是說那文化幣我們已經推行了三年了到底我們有沒有具體的成果除了說用在哪一些方面上面因為現在最多的是"},{"start":19046.944,"end":19064.302,"text":"書店出版品佔60%國片佔不到10%今年國片市場不樂觀不樂落所以我想是不是等一下部長也可以來說明一下文化部的部分以你的看法"},{"start":19064.582,"end":19089.957,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19090.057,"end":19092.5,"text":"關於文化創意產業發展的業務我跟好幾位委員都很關心包括陳培委員講的文化禮金好像在六都"},{"start":19105.094,"end":19124.974,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19124.974,"end":19126.275,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19146.57,"end":19161.927,"text":"第106案陳秀寶委員及吳立華委員寫色之路這是文策院支持的案子其實非常好今年代表智利會去進軍奧斯卡國際最佳影片獎"},{"start":19162.708,"end":19165.45,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19190.758,"end":19213.163,"text":"主席,我是109案。這一案是關於扶植我國遊戲產業的相關問題。在上一次的質詢裡,本席就有跟文策院蔡董事長做過討論。所以想要藉由這次審查預算的機會,再進一步跟蔡董事長聊聊我國遊戲公司赤佐"},{"start":19213.883,"end":19221.286,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19240.274,"end":19247.199,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19263.653,"end":19268.197,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19291.004,"end":19293.569,"text":"好,還有沒有哪位委員?"},{"start":19296.815,"end":19319.932,"text":"主席這邊我有兩案一個99案一個104案那我就104案我來做一下說明這個104案其實我們可以看到這個文化部跟這個文策院在113年的時候一部這個黑潮計畫補助跟國發基金的投資臨日攻擊當時就引起了很大的一個爭議那我們來看經過文化部自己的統計我們到113年的9月底"},{"start":19322.634,"end":19337.727,"text":"有通過這個黑潮計畫補助的所謂的台聚類型總共是11案那可是只有三部獲得文策院審議通過國發基金的投資那其中啊這個淋浴攻擊又是補助最多的我們看到這個文化部黑潮計畫補助了7131萬"},{"start":19340.329,"end":19358.112,"text":"文策院運用國發基金補助4,170萬元,整佈局有將近五成都是我們這樣給的補助。可是我們看到這個臨日文創公司這一家公司是112年5月才成立的,而且資本額只有85萬的一個這麼小的公司。"},{"start":19359.053,"end":19359.973,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":19390.779,"end":19390.979,"text":"主席"},{"start":19408.457,"end":19434.094,"text":"這個本來是10年計畫後來一直在修那個古蹟那實驗基地產業培力文化平台國際機構等等其實也做了不少那目前正在面臨到一個最關鍵時刻就是我們要準備蓋一個在這個生肖的空地裡面蓋一個很大的建築那這個建築就要整合整個文化產業未來的一個科技也好"},{"start":19434.514,"end":19436.396,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19462.858,"end":19486.305,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19486.465,"end":19488.025,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19513.379,"end":19515.401,"text":"國立文化部主管國立文化發展基金附"},{"start":19530.418,"end":19532.44,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19551.34,"end":19576.221,"text":"然後再來一個就是包括文策院文策院其實是今年要成立第5年了然後搖搖擺擺走到今年說實話在這一兩年做了很多的投資那剛剛講到淋浴攻擊我想稍微更正一下資料其實淋浴攻擊是第一批通過11部裡面的一部然後他的預算最高但是他投資比例不是最高甚至於是最後"},{"start":19577.101,"end":19604.564,"text":"當初我沒有參與這個11部的計畫但是我所知道的臨時攻擊是分10段故事10個導演在拍那10個導演裡面有6個是非常年輕的導演而且非常有潛力的所以這個題材被看中的原因我猜是國際市場還有培養年輕導演那大家只看到一個前導片事實上他真正拍出來那10段故事沒有人看過所以我希望"},{"start":19605.265,"end":19634.735,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19634.735,"end":19657.858,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19658.778,"end":19682.603,"text":"五大文化園區的確是一個在台灣一個很特別的軍國日治時代以後有菸廠、有酒廠、有糖廠然後能夠規劃成五大文化園區是非常珍貴的資源我必須承認在過去一方面是委外經營之後不太好之後又回到文化部來接管但是委外到接管的過程中其實我拿其中一個來看"},{"start":19683.643,"end":19700.538,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":19700.638,"end":19729.39,"text":"不盡大家的滿意事實上我自己也跑了家創、花創等等去想它還有什麼可以發展那以上是我大概籠統的講一下在這個項目裡面對我們台灣的文化的影響力其實非常大那我想請幾位司長或者董事長再補充我想先稍等一下部長剛剛有特別提到一個說我們現在補助的那個對象我們的資訊是有誤的靈異攻擊不是最多的那請問哪一部是最多的"},{"start":19730.146,"end":19736.614,"text":"最多那一部我想是那個曹瑞元有一部叫做時後他拿了大概60%幾"},{"start":19741.254,"end":19759.548,"text":"預算金額是多少?他的預算金額比這個零售公司少。他拿了你的補助是多少?他拿了我的補助大概八、九千吧。因為我們這項我跟你解釋一下,就是我們有投跟補。就是說輔導金給了之後,同樣的文車員觀察到可以投資,投跟補加起來是這個數字。那剛剛講,"},{"start":19761.912,"end":19762.853,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19777.637,"end":19802.261,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":19802.441,"end":19802.681,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":19832.332,"end":19833.613,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":19860.433,"end":19883.231,"text":"科技計畫在文創市這邊基本上我們做的大概編了大概1.45億那總共要做幾件事情包括第一個是時尚的設計那要促進的品牌做一些永續素材提升製程環保其實這個案子最早是跟經濟部合作所以我們要做一些淨零排碳的這些以及那些這個屬於永續的衣料布料的這個開發所以這一塊已經"},{"start":19885.776,"end":19911.357,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19911.357,"end":19941.357,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19941.678,"end":19951.353,"text":"整個跨部會的科技計畫合作的課程大概我們科技計畫的部分建聯排汰的部分還是要配合整個科技計畫的重點來推動那針對加創"},{"start":19955.998,"end":19956.478,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19975.316,"end":19975.736,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":20000.592,"end":20026.043,"text":"不同的在文化發展上面有它更重要的角色所以我們會提出文創園區的整個空間營運的概念升級不要只是限於出出我們要建構網絡合作的網絡就是要跟地方合作要建立區域的特色不要說像剛剛孟凱文提到的像家創園區我們基本上就是用AR、VR用沉浸式的方式來處理"},{"start":20027.227,"end":20057.227,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":20057.227,"end":20078.285,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":20082.654,"end":20098.946,"text":"好,我是文策委員蔡阿俊先針對羅廷偉委員的問題我再先做個說明委員可能有點誤解事實上我們其中100年文策從100年到113年它歷經之前文化部的一期二期投資到5年前文策委員成立之後我們銜接了這個國發經濟投資"},{"start":20100.447,"end":20118.353,"text":"目前我們總共核准通過的是233案沒有錯當然還有一些還在預約或是還不能公佈的可能還有更多那233案當時我們受到這個所知的要求的時候其實是說希望我們提出具有國際競爭力的案子所以我們只提供裡面其實也不是7件我們提供14件"},{"start":20119.233,"end":20141.153,"text":"那七件是跟影視比較相關我們其他還有一些國際合資那這個先跟委員說明如果我們漏了或是我們給了不足的我們會後一定再全力給委員一個滿意的交代另外剛剛委員提到那個有關政港分局非常謝謝委員問到這一題政港分局大家知道Netflix其實在台灣這邊播很多劇但有些委員可能比較內行Netflix在台灣買了很多劇他買來播"},{"start":20143.314,"end":20158.823,"text":"與買來做原創的兩種價錢天差地遠,給予的行銷預算也差非常多。一般如果是買來剝落大概一級從幾萬塊錢台幣而已,如果是買來做原創的可能從幾千萬到上億不等,政港分局屬於後者。"},{"start":20159.684,"end":20163.245,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20184.989,"end":20212.959,"text":"都有登上排行榜所以我們同事可能比較過意只列了一個第一天的這個數據所以都要寫出來啊好,我們後續來補我們後續來補沒錯,我們同事太過意這是我們所知的原因是是是,我們盡可能所知的資料給得更充分一點我們做好的事情不怕委員知道嘛那另外我們也有列舉他也得了韓國的一些原創OTT大獎的提名這些風光尾葉我們都會把它描列得更清楚這跟委員先報告那順著這題我們提到黑潮計畫"},{"start":20214.099,"end":20232.047,"text":"黑潮計畫其實很多委員可能知道可能不清楚我要講一次黑潮計畫是一個投補專案先經過文化部影視局的補助之後再經由文化文策院的投資事實上其實它會經由兩組不同的評審委員做兩次不同的評選"},{"start":20233.047,"end":20253.411,"text":"那我可以這樣講的原因是他兩次在文化部影視局的補助的評審委員跟文策院投資評審委員沒有重疊兩個都是兩個不同的評審委員名單完全不同的重疊所以說透過更多元的評審委員我們相信他其實給提供的視野是更多元的絕對不會獨厚哪一個"},{"start":20254.151,"end":20267.644,"text":"至於剛剛提到委員提出說我們投資某一部作品是不是特別多事實上我們投資單就我們這邊的立場我們用國發基金投資最多的一部是柴志平、柴姐的我的燃料時光那一部我們投了4700萬"},{"start":20270.066,"end":20291.499,"text":"補助的部分就是影視局,我這邊就不幫他回答所以其實投資的金額部分最高的這一部其實是才智斌拆解的《我的燃料時光》我們投資第二名還排不到《黑曹計畫》第二名投資的是《金盞花》就是專門拍許光漢那家公司的新的一個影集叫《詐欺者》這一部我們投了4500萬"},{"start":20294.381,"end":20307.349,"text":"事實上其實我們也沒有獨厚於哪一部我們還是看商業來講那如果你剛剛特別提到說領域供給這個事情事實上我剛從新加坡回來然後我們剛從釜山回來事實上也正是因為這個主題它具有國際"},{"start":20308.57,"end":20335.059,"text":"的一些輿論的討論度我說實在話所以我們在國外的時候有很多其他國外的電視台平台會主動來洽詢這個影集事實上它也是一個就商業來考量它是聳動的正如同我們看首爾之春的聳動它其實也是聳動的這個也是跟委員報告然後另外剛提到我們使用的投資是用國發基金不是用文化部的預算所以請委員要凍結我們預算的時候也幫忙我們先三思一下感謝 謝謝"},{"start":20341.306,"end":20368.272,"text":"客森委員,下一位范映委員不好意思,我還是要針對我們蔡董事長提到的0日攻擊剛剛萬委員已經特別提到了他除了你們的這樣的一個補助之外他還有這個國發基金的補助,沒有錯但是我要問的就是說其實除了這兩間前二地方沒有一家的公司是超過6千萬的補助我們要問的是一個小公司資本這麼少小公司、新公司還有這麼大的一個補助"},{"start":20369.292,"end":20374.494,"text":"這對許他人來說的話對很多的這個影視行業來說是非常不公平的然後你剛跟我講了這麼樣的多的部分裡面我們還是想要了解他的確是因為聳動但是聳動裡面他到底當然這個部長會認為說未來在整個國際市場會有一個很好的突發性我們就來看看但是今天大家所質疑是這樣的一個公司裡面一個小的一個新的他為什麼可以你說裁製品拜託"},{"start":20396.36,"end":20401.521,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20421.907,"end":20424.251,"text":"這個超過六千萬再加上國發基金加起來是一億三千萬一億三千萬這是相當高額的一個補助我們是希望為什麼是這樣子"},{"start":20432.312,"end":20435.713,"text":"蔡董事長,你剛好漏掉我講你的部分沒有回應,就是我有提到那個陳秀寶跟吳立華委員很關心的,他請我幫忙講的。"},{"start":20452.137,"end":20474.962,"text":"就是去年文策院支持的有9個國家合致然後代表智利角逐奧斯卡最佳國際影片的血色之路卻無法在台灣上映我覺得這也代表你們的成果之一喔那但是沒法上映那是發生什麼事以後我們辦法避免你要不要先回應一下這一題等一下我們再繼續討論"},{"start":20476.849,"end":20503.117,"text":"事實上文車店投資雪車事務我們當然覺得與有榮焉但其實我們其實並不很難主動介入商業市場的操作但我也理解到這部片子有它的特殊性所以我們其實已經在研擬我們是不是先從國影中心這一些我們自己比較可以去溝通的一些公務機構的影廳做一些說明讓它可以復印那我們又透過可能因為文車店也有投資一些相關影廳跟我們有一些合資的一些公司"},{"start":20503.817,"end":20508.223,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20520.558,"end":20547.301,"text":"好 我們接下來請儒君委員謝謝有幾點我可能還是要提出一下首先可能部長比較累我不知道您會不會不小心失言或者我聽錯了剛剛提到零日攻擊的時候部長有說您會看過先看過然後有需要的話請他修正我想2024年了我們尊重創作者的意志好不好就是作者怎麼做他必然有他的看法"},{"start":20548.361,"end":20574.622,"text":"我想這個小宇部長您以前都是在站在反對修正的這一派人的這邊去保障創作者的創作自由我覺得您現在這麼早的時間點就是說您看過之後如果有問題要請他修正我覺得這樣的論點可能會讓創作者有點擔心那我就先假定您是失言的但是其實剛剛董事長也有一個說法我也覺得讓人覺得有需要再商議一下就是您有提到董事長有提到說"},{"start":20576.036,"end":20578.558,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20594.417,"end":20622.506,"text":"台灣附近的供給嗎?你為什麼不叫臨日防禦呢?那甚至您剛剛還提到用首爾之春首爾之春是歷史啊是過去發生的事啊我們用未來還沒發生的事來當聳動的文化題材這是我們的策略嗎?這真的是我們在文化商業上投資要做的嗎?如果開始先例的話之後還得了所以我想這個我先假定您可能是失言那也許我聽錯待會兒也許還是聽您回覆一下"},{"start":20625.129,"end":20634.322,"text":"10個導演,其實大家都是很著重在這次有個非常致命的導演羅景任身上那當然剛剛提到說還有很多新進的導演當然我們也是很期待,但是"},{"start":20635.359,"end":20654.334,"text":"我們都認為這個文化訊的傳播在台灣尤其是政府資助的各國會怎麼解讀這個我覺得也是需要審慎看待所以並不是說很聳動這個大家都很關注好像就是成功我覺得這個可能還是需要考慮一下"},{"start":20655.074,"end":20657.595,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":20677.9,"end":20702.117,"text":"遊戲也是文化輸出的一個管道這件事一定要正視不要等到每一次出來一個什麼悟空出來一個什麼大家網路上都在討論為什麼我們沒有文策院或者是文化部其實就是要高瞻遠瞩我們的預算就是要拿來做大家希望未來看到政府做的事情所以這個我是純粹的echo那林益勤可能是很客氣委員他只凍結五萬塊"},{"start":20704.54,"end":20707.403,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20718.795,"end":20721.377,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20743.533,"end":20761.081,"text":"報告部長知不知道B是可以用空投的方式air drop你根本就不用讓他主動來領你直接發完這個發給率是百分之百新的技術是不是可以討論導入到這裡不然的話這個預算花下去每一年都在做一樣的事只是擴大年齡層我覺得也不太對"},{"start":20762.762,"end":20764.223,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":20779.14,"end":20804.766,"text":"請教部長114年文化部對於文化科技新興藝術有沒有具體規劃這一點我沒有聽到答覆現在有非常多的AI藝術有許多的NFT鏈上的藝術的展演甚至更多光雕投影等等這些都是屬於科技藝術還有可能我現在都還講不出來的有非常多所以我想這個部分是不是還是能夠稍微提一下謝謝"},{"start":20807.076,"end":20827.001,"text":"好謝謝盧君委員接著我們請孟凱委員好我比較聚焦一點不發散我要echo一下那個我們美林昭緯的一個提案104案其實剛剛聽到我們董事長這邊的一個解釋還有就部長的一個說明真的還是一樣就是說為什麼會這個案子會讓大家特別的質疑就是說他到底是聳動還是投其所好"},{"start":20828.124,"end":20829.366,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20843.064,"end":20843.885,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20866.897,"end":20869.059,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20885.538,"end":20886.899,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20914.645,"end":20939.467,"text":"好接下來我們請佩玉委員這個關於文化必揮有一個117的提案那我也是針對之前的執行率的關心文化部來跟我說明就是說明年度第一個是我們發放對象是擴大的年齡是往下去扎根第二個是可以運用的產業的類別像看電影啊看演唱會等等都會加入擴大所以這點我是相當支持所以這案我要改成主角藝文"},{"start":20939.907,"end":20964.529,"text":"那剛剛呢很多委員在關心是有文策院對臨日供給的投資首先我想要講支持臺灣的影視音產業所以我想應該是我們教育委員會不分黨派大家集體的共識那過去長期是只有文化部的輔導金補助文策院成立之後我們就是希望投補並行那文策院的這些投資來自於國發基金要投給誰也是由"},{"start":20965.47,"end":20969.571,"text":"由外部委員所組成的這個小組經過我們就是希望能夠去參佐業界對市場性的敏銳度以及他的專業來進行投資所以我想我們在立法院的委員會我覺得實在是不宜就單一個個案去介入去干涉"},{"start":20982.995,"end":20983.635,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21000.385,"end":21022.856,"text":"這不就是文策院成立的初衷嗎?因為我們知道說光靠我們自己政府部門,輔導金是不夠的。我們要希望延攬來自於業界的專業。所以這一點我希望我們委員要有自我的解釋跟尊重專業。哪一部該投資,哪一部不該投資,不應該在立法院討論。這很容易一個縣沒有拿捏好會變成一個政治的審查。"},{"start":21023.476,"end":21041.629,"text":"那剛剛很多委員一直在說大家對零日攻擊有質疑,我也想問大家是誰至少我個人沒有這樣子的質疑我們會去關心關注是絕對你們有投資之後要有效果但是就零日攻擊從預告發布到現在第一個外媒的報導量非常的大"},{"start":21041.809,"end":21043.17,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21065.418,"end":21068.039,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21092.145,"end":21092.606,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":21110.862,"end":21128.78,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21128.84,"end":21143.75,"text":"在這一次文策院也會跟著一起發生所以我們當然支持所有的委員都不希望介入個案的審查但是我們看到諸多的疑點甚至是有共通點都是小資本拿到大補助"},{"start":21144.651,"end":21165.629,"text":"以及內容不敢說是大家但是有多數的人或者是有一半的人去擔心這樣子的投資案是不是有待商榷所以在今天會特別拿出來說那我們也希望當然不是董事長能夠一意孤行去決定要不要補助"},{"start":21166.51,"end":21182.295,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21182.395,"end":21202.171,"text":"我相信對於這樣子的案子當中各個委員如果了解的這個細部審查是公平公正的一定會給予支持但是我要再次的強調就是這一次的臨日攻擊為什麼會有小資本剛成立可以拿到大補助那是不是進而可以帶動到許多國內更多的年輕人創業"},{"start":21203.812,"end":21225.784,"text":"都可以這樣子比照辦理激起一股更多的國內文化的一個投資甚至國內的一個年輕人願意來做一個新興產業因為有這麼好的一個案例他們都是小資本拿到大補助當然我們覺得如果真的很多年輕人都能夠受益我們利益良善我們一起來支持但是大概到105"},{"start":21227.685,"end":21249.671,"text":"105案我們剛剛所說的我要再一次的提醒董事長您剛剛所說的230幾案因為我問的問題你們只給我14案就是因為我針對這個國際的部分所以我要進而再次提醒我們看到這些預算裡面都是為了打造國家品牌形象推動異業整合建立產業知識進而國際競爭力的提升"},{"start":21253.172,"end":21280.121,"text":"兩百三十幾案只有14案是用到了國際提升我們不免擔心這些預算是不是多數應該用在國際競爭的提升竟然只有14案講白的最近有一個叫做黑白大廚韓國的料理在各個國家收視都低音我們能不能打造屬於台灣的黑白大廚這是我們擔心這是我們希望的所以我就讓這部分加強兩百三十幾案只有14案"},{"start":21281.24,"end":21300.636,"text":"好 謝謝庭委委員那接下來我們請倩琦 倩琦還沒發言過嗎倩琦委員我們重複的是不是就不要再針對重複的項目再發言好不好要不然其實可能再一整天也審不完就是如果我們已經發言過我們就不要針對同一件事再重複發言倩琦委員"},{"start":21302.2,"end":21324.216,"text":"好 謝謝我們支持國片但是要嚴審預算所以有關於國片這邊我先講一個文化幣的問題所以在文化幣的部分我們比較集中可以使用的項目在書籍、書店我這邊建議把國片廣泛的放進去當然剛才部長這邊有提到"},{"start":21324.636,"end":21325.777,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21341.234,"end":21366.309,"text":"內容大家有很多討論但是我這邊要提醒一下還是一個概念好像在部裡面不好意思那個部長您每次在談到對這個群眾的一個投入您經常講到年輕導演或者是兒童那我還是要在這邊強調一下吳委員講的壯世代所以在我們今天討論的文創"},{"start":21368.01,"end":21389.23,"text":"跟你們所投入的這些相關的比例到底在壯世代裡面有什麼樣更積極的作為那這個部分從你剛才講的園區我這邊有一個問題我先確認一下一件事剛才葛委員這邊一直提的東西我還是也沒有聽到回應那個文化科技的新計劃"},{"start":21390.691,"end":21392.853,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21419.554,"end":21441.266,"text":"你們應該有的責任去推動它的功能所以它只剩下這樣子一個主題嗎那我要講的其實是幾個園區都有這樣一個問題我們再回應到剛才柯委員所講的空總你們又要投資很多的錢在這邊蓋新建築那我想請問一下全國的這五大園區你們到底要怎麼樣"},{"start":21444.745,"end":21467.91,"text":"這是長年來都沒有解決的問題文創從20幾年你們從園區的產業效應其實也有委員這邊提到你們到底在聚集什麼樣子的產業我相信你們在一開始想要仿所謂經濟相關的產業群聚但是現在我們看不出效果這五個園區都是除了華山"},{"start":21469.508,"end":21493.299,"text":"所以看起來本來就已經在發揮的而且它本來就已經有條件的你們一直投注資源在這裡面講實在話我不知道文化部真正啟動或者是讓事情有效率的功能在哪裡我講整體的施政都是這樣啊時尚產業影視它其實發展的就很好你們只要少管它"},{"start":21494.312,"end":21522.381,"text":"他可能就有很大的發展機會但是真正需要大家投注的花蓮、嘉義到現在是什麼樣的狀況然後你們現在又要在台北蓋請告訴我這些園區已有的園區你們到底要怎麼處理十年、二十年了然後我們就一群聚集在台北的人偶爾去看一下別的地方然後用一個不切實際的想像"},{"start":21524.557,"end":21535.53,"text":"然後繼續這樣施政嗎?所以我這邊很具體啦在這個部分我想大家都很客氣啦但是我凍結10%假設園區的問題沒有辦法再解決嘉義的問題沒有辦法再解決我還是堅持我凍的比例那我減了100萬"},{"start":21545.843,"end":21563.674,"text":"請你們先把發展20年一直焦灼在那邊的園區的問題很具體的給我們一個時辰你們再來談空總未來要再蓋什麼建築的問題預算要多少我們再來討論吧一百二十三案"},{"start":21570.64,"end":21586.668,"text":"規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃規矩台流文化黑草計劃"},{"start":21588.56,"end":21606.086,"text":"當時的喊出來的口號或是願景是說要打造文化旗艦型的作品比如說把台灣航海時代的故事把它拍成像神鬼起航這樣子的那種大劇那我不知道說效益有做到這樣的一個"},{"start":21607.996,"end":21611.899,"text":"主管國立文化基金附本來是說要打造我們自己的OTT來解決這個問題"},{"start":21629.813,"end":21631.114,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21648.939,"end":21675.852,"text":"不讓文化部做這個事我們也覺得台流很好要比照韓流也要很棒可是就看不出一個具體的計畫出來感覺就是幾億幾億一百億兩百億這樣花下去那到底是要做什麼錢砸的事情就完成了嗎所以在這個項目我是主張先凍結五千萬然後等到有一個書面說明跟委員會書面說明把具體的分析說清楚然後再來解凍用這個錢謝謝"},{"start":21677.654,"end":21679.656,"text":"主席,因為剛剛針對零入供給這一案,前面的委員有二次發言,所以我就第二次發言,那也從下一幕開始就尊重主席的採釋。我還是希望說,我們不要因為對於個案的關注去打破了我們對影視應產業支持的通則。"},{"start":21697.737,"end":21703.523,"text":"如果我們今天在這裡可以討論說哪一部劇不該補助不該投資那下一次是不是可以在委會討論哪一部劇應該投資應該補助我覺得不應該過度的干涉低點那剛剛也有委員在關注說這個他的公司是不是太小這麼小的公司怎麼可以給他這麼多的支持這個我覺得會脫離我們現在影視應產業的基層"},{"start":21719.019,"end":21745.184,"text":"去台一大去北一大這些電影系剛畢業的學生會低成太遙遠我們現在都是在講說如何去培育台灣未來影視映的新興人才以及未來的新銳的作品所以呢我覺得不應該以他的資本額的大小作為我們該不該來給予支持的這個評判的通則我還再次強調我覺得我們不應該對於個案的關注去打破了目前支持的通則因為這個影響是整體台灣影視映產業的發展謝謝"},{"start":21749.625,"end":21770.49,"text":"謝謝沛逸我想主席這裡都會盡量讓大家充分發言不要太重複就好你們盡量發言我都會讓你們來說不過這邊我是覺得因為剛才我一定要回應一下因為剛剛部長在講說我們這個補助其實沒有是最多然後排到第三其實如果把補助跟投資放在一塊看的話"},{"start":21771.67,"end":21772.712,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":21789.032,"end":21815.183,"text":"這個人這個品牌以及他是92年就成立的公司資本高達到750萬等等那都是在過去有成績可以展現的所以我想對於剛才董事長說要我們所有的委員審查預算要三思的這樣的說法我覺得不是很恰當我想我們其實在寫預算案的時候就非常審慎在看了所以其實董事長在審預算的時候要我們三思這件事我是覺得應該要收回"},{"start":21818.106,"end":21828.083,"text":"先跟文道歉如果引起你的誤解我的意思不是這樣子我的意思是說我們投資的預算是用國發基金的預算不是文化部的預算我是指這一點請大家理解這樣子"},{"start":21829.555,"end":21856.3,"text":"這點大家都理解啊,怎麼會有不理解的狀況?好不好?那,范議員要再補充?對,因為關於那個臨日公解委都一直還沒發言喔其實部分我也是蠻呼應剛剛吳佩儀委員的我是覺得大家針對一個騙子,我其實還沒看過就是表達這麼多的意見讓我很擔心到底是大家覺得主題不正確,譬如說有哪類的主題文策院、文化部都不應該投資"},{"start":21857.5,"end":21880.35,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":21880.35,"end":21901.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21903.816,"end":21913.488,"text":"除非委員沒有覺得怎麼樣規模以下的公司以後都不能參與那我們就就那個主題來討論或是哪一類的主題你們都不應該投資我是覺得這樣是不是比較具體那另外關於黑潮其實我也很期待這個黑潮"},{"start":21919.315,"end":21945.004,"text":"只是我覺得黑草我剛剛看一下這不是才113年今年開始執行嗎那到116年第一年第一年一個這樣的一個匯聚台流的這種計畫要它這麼快就有結果好像也是有一點點太快了所以我是也希望跟月圓之吻有個對話是不是不要一下就要動這麼多因為它才剛開始嘛"},{"start":21946.184,"end":21946.864,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":21967.369,"end":21968.45,"text":"黑草計劃"},{"start":21984.5,"end":22000.175,"text":"新成立新創馬上就可以獲得那麼高額的一個不管是投資或者是補助這跟你拿其他公司講說第一名第二名第三名第四名比較起來第一名第二名是什麼樣的公司是過去到現在有很多時機的公司甚至"},{"start":22002.469,"end":22026.76,"text":"外美領委員他有要求黑潮計畫的執行表格裡面總共11個案我們現在拿到正正是我們的一個推敲啊第一名第二名金綻花米神這是多久以前就成立公司成立十幾二十年了第四名我們拿四千萬以上的公司來講第四名大牧影藝大牧影藝他2013年成立金鐘獎56屆57、58屆全部都有入圍都有得獎啊"},{"start":22030.822,"end":22055.45,"text":"他是一個有得獎得名而且過去有代表作的公司那我現在就講是說四千萬以上就四家那其中就只有林日文創公司他是沒有過去沒有時機吃本額又少又沒有任何的代表作就新成立那他要拍一部叫做林日攻擊結果林日文創那我想請教他第二部作品要叫什麼林日攻擊二林日攻擊三"},{"start":22059.981,"end":22060.286,"text":"我今天對"},{"start":22062.122,"end":22089.38,"text":"戲劇內容我都沒有討論因為我認為戲劇內容是創作者的創作自由立法院當然沒有干涉我現在講的是一個根本的SOP你前幾名的公司有非常好的時機的你可以拿到獎我沒有懷疑那個評審的專業但我們現在懷疑一個就是完全沒有時機而且是一個幾乎是100萬以下資本額的一個新創公司突然拿到一個第三名那你後面45678名怎麼會服氣"},{"start":22092.847,"end":22103.005,"text":"部長要講說這個恐怖片我也愛看電影啊你的那個紅衣小女孩股份有限公司他過去拍了很多片我也覺得好看啊紅衣小女孩這個"},{"start":22105.299,"end":22109.662,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22132.22,"end":22143.845,"text":"那范委員請聽清楚本席剛剛的講法從頭到尾我沒有針對他的戲劇內容有任何的批評審查或是任何的一個干涉我只是就事論事好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":22146.263,"end":22153.168,"text":"這個公司登記120萬實際不到86萬這樣一個公司我還是認為不是審查它的內容而且還出動國防部非常多軍機的支援為什麼3000寵愛在這個地方我覺得光是這一點的部分真的不是干涉內容而是這個公司本身的成立到底為什麼可以讓你們這麼有信心的一次就是6000萬以上再加上國發基金"},{"start":22171.499,"end":22173.541,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22192.799,"end":22215.96,"text":"老字號老牌子結果他拿的比一個資本額85萬的公司一年不到成立的沒有代表做公司還要來的少的一個補助啊你要讓後面那些公司情何以堪你到底是鼓勵創業還是鼓勵大家投其所好好 謝謝我想這一個部分啊我們大家又補充很多意見說明我再請文化部再給文化部一次說明的機會"},{"start":22220.836,"end":22221.017,"text":"1995 論八月"},{"start":22228.405,"end":22254.566,"text":"1995論八月就是講說1995那一年推背圖說中共會打來臺灣會滅亡1995論八月那一年會發生那個作者自己非常害怕就躲在一個小島上去已經移民到貝里斯了這本書沒有人敢出覺得我也很聳聽後來有個出版社覺得這個會大賣就出了出了之後這個書賣翻了這個人就移民到美國去了"},{"start":22255.675,"end":22276.293,"text":"所有人對這個中共會打來這件事情心懷恐懼可是它變成一本書之後1995過去了1996台海戰爭今年是2024年我們熬過了這麼長一段時間它是一個非常敏感的題材領域攻擊就是一個非常敏感的題材它踩到了大家非常害怕的事情"},{"start":22277.034,"end":22280.376,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22306.967,"end":22321.192,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22335.063,"end":22336.904,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":22354.497,"end":22378.291,"text":"今天這些人,你們剛剛講的那幾個公司我都覺得非常棒可是這家公司一定是很多人想投資下去政府的錢之外,這個錢並不多,為什麼?它是拍10部10個故事以台灣每個故事都是要兩三千、三千萬以上乘以10的話,它是3億左右3億左右的一個題材,今天才2億多"},{"start":22380.12,"end":22380.981,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22398.48,"end":22405.642,"text":"這基本上就是他本來不想剩下這個行業的不好意思部長對不起部長您先請坐一下這個不要緊我要講完了對不起來您先請坐因為我知道您記得要回覆但是您兩個方向其實都不是今天委員所談的方向第一個剛才再次來講說我們大家沒有對題材內容有什麼意見"},{"start":22419.326,"end":22420.727,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22452.987,"end":22481.602,"text":"法案基金辦理。先跟各位講我個人從來沒有投過一張票我沒有進去過投,從來沒有投過一張票所以它真的是委員的集體共識所以我們沒有理由拒絕因為目前它其實受理的案件沒有針對公司成立多久公司資本額大小做限制所以任何公司都可以送件進來我們必須受理這是第一件事情第一件事情很多委員都很累我再跟大家報告台灣的電影界、影視界有非常多所謂的項目公司"},{"start":22483.288,"end":22486.549,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22512.793,"end":22539.632,"text":"這11案是不是只有這一案?好來我們舉手我們請葛無軍委員那再來柯志恩你不用吳佩奕委員孟凱呢?沒有齁好那我們就再徵求葛無軍委員以後佩奕我先很謝謝部長正面來回覆齁但是我還是要講我們剛剛沒有任何人去講說不該投資這部電影齁所以這個不管是哪一個黨的委員都不要自己對號入座去做這個小檢查"},{"start":22541.594,"end":22545.256,"text":"小檢察局沒有人要講這件事我剛剛甚至呼籲說我們的部長不要去修改人家的電影喔我們現在在講的是什麼是在講機制是在講程序奇怪怎麼有的政黨講到這種議題的時候你們突然程序正義四個字不會寫了嗎我跟各位報告"},{"start":22561.725,"end":22587.58,"text":"剛剛董事長突然講了他絕對沒有投票我告訴各位為什麼董事長突然要撇清了這間公司網路上都查得到林日文創股份有限公司剛剛部長您有一個認知說這可能是一個集資我們知道民間的企業可能會這樣做尤其是拍電影這種但是這是一個投資這是一個政府的投資而且這並不是集資我告訴部長為什麼"},{"start":22589.862,"end":22601.295,"text":"這個我一開始還替他有點講話為什麼因為我以前帶過廣告公司羅景任導演非常有名所以我還以為說這個公司是他的一查發現不是啊是鄭新妹的是負責人30萬股監察人是誰呢林錦昌"},{"start":22605.399,"end":22622.89,"text":"大家去查一下林錦昌林錦昌是之前沉水扁的時代的辦公室蔡英文時代的辦公室所以這個外界會覺得說這個公司有一點讓人有程序正義上的疑義這很奇怪嗎那為什麼我們要在預算的時候提出來很簡單嘛此例一開"},{"start":22623.971,"end":22624.591,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構"},{"start":22643.502,"end":22654.391,"text":"也不是不行嘛但是我覺得作為投資者您剛剛口口聲聲一下又聳動一下又怎麼樣然後你現在又撇清說你沒有投票但是我又來講我們做內容審查完全沒有內容審查我再說一次剛剛我已經跟部長說了"},{"start":22660.596,"end":22676.311,"text":"不應該由您看過要來請他修改這不是我們現在這個時代要做的事結果你去查根本不像部長您想像的是說幾個人這樣聚集起來去成立這家公司 完全不是的如果是 那他是怎麼樣 他是有人掛名嗎"},{"start":22678.172,"end":22704.738,"text":"這個我覺得這個我們今天目的是審查預算原因就是因為我們認為此例不可開既然已經投資已經都下了我們當然可以翻頁可是我們是在審未來的預算我們認為這件事很重要如果文化部沒有辦法守好這個門我們為什麼要給各位這麼多的預算給各位這麼大的空間呢謝謝謝謝如君委員那我們再請那個配業委員這個發言完以後主席就要開始這個處理了"},{"start":22706.438,"end":22713.023,"text":"對我還是要再次表達我覺得各位委員對部片有這麼多意見其實去召開記者會你的評論都是合理的但是立法院的教文委員會不應該就一個案尤其是經過國發基金投審會外部專家審查通過的個案來去給予這麼多的意見的介入剛剛甚至還要討論到片名應當取什麼樣名字比較我覺得這都不適當"},{"start":22730.655,"end":22748.279,"text":"然後還有是我們現在其實在審查是文化部的公務預算但是剛剛各位關注的這些影片他在文策院的投資使用是國發基金所以你要用這一個個案然後來去要凍結文化部對於文策院整體運作的這個預算我是非常的有意見因為文策院不是只有投資電影還有音樂還有設計還有動漫還有很多其他相關的產業這都是我們要去支持的"},{"start":22758.942,"end":22773.714,"text":"所以我覺得大家還是針對這個他就是該項的預算來討論我覺得比較合理好謝謝佩葉委員那我們已經充分討論了所以我們現在來做處理我們在第四幕的這個部分從86案到123案"},{"start":22776.676,"end":22777.156,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22803.795,"end":22807.747,"text":"在動結數上面取得大家一個共識來 我們先請哪位委員 聽委"},{"start":22812.499,"end":22833.711,"text":"不好意思我應該沒有看錯103案跟你是同一案喔你不是最高的凍結數最高的是30%OKOK這我必須要糾正一下所以並不是他是吳春成吳春成兩億二左右啦對所以我覺得這個應該要協調一下好那我覺得趙偉沒關係你先說我們看怎麼樣一併"},{"start":22836.127,"end":22849.992,"text":"但是因為那個吳春晨委員他也他不在現場了那對他有一個案子對不起我剛剛沒有看到他的是百分之三十是兩億二好那所以呢那個在現場的委員大家有沒有什麼意見我再來做一個最後的處理對這一幕"},{"start":22859.659,"end":22863.361,"text":"現在這樣看起來的話這一幕最高的應該是那個吳春城委員那凍結了7億3千3百20萬的30%大約啦大約是兩億了等一下我們再精算如果真的是凍結了30%我們再來精算然後呢主席我凍結的是10%7千3百萬羅廷惠委員5千萬那當然往後還有123案的是議員之委員的5千萬"},{"start":22883.951,"end":22899.821,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":22902.355,"end":22929.315,"text":"一、二、二。一、二、二。二十趴。九千萬喔。九千,九千多少錢?因為我們現在討論第四幕啊。第四幕37億啊。那86到89是第四幕的大幕。可是90之後其實是第四幕01。然後再來94是02。那因為我們剛剛比較聚焦,因為我們其實到最後討論有一點點聚焦,也有一點點"},{"start":22930.436,"end":22931.417,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22945.433,"end":22969.9,"text":"我們要做一個第四幕的統一的部分處理還是說因為有個別人其實針對01、02、03的不同業務裡面有不同的想像跟要求所以還是我們就直接從01、02、03這樣子順下來我回復一下就是我尊重大家如果大家要重新去講一個今天審查的那個原則或規則我們可以調整那但是我們今天上午有在講就是我們可能就是用"},{"start":22971.34,"end":22972.041,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22990.269,"end":22990.429,"text":"民進黨委員"},{"start":23014.134,"end":23029.882,"text":"法院委員提議動1千萬本期的案子我們去整數就是動7千萬然後那個庭委是5千元之5千有沒有其他委員大家要不要整合一下我忘了處理那個慶祺委員的慶祺委員還有一個9千萬所以大家有沒有一個共識部長你要不要講一下你的期待"},{"start":23042.005,"end":23061.783,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23061.863,"end":23061.943,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":23084.747,"end":23111.339,"text":"至於你要刪多少我最多一千萬我想我修正兩個地點我們沒有要刪對不起主席來處理好不好第一個我們真的沒有要刪我們都沒有說要刪不好意思我可以去強調但是我們是凍結第二個部分是部長你可能要把你的思維再拉到今天所有委員會的委員討論的重點上面大家沒有在討論這一步的內容所以也不用留待什麼多年以後來驗證大家沒有在討論內容的部分"},{"start":23113.9,"end":23133.976,"text":"甚至於葛如君委員還有講就是不希望去改這個內容我們尊重創作者所以沒有人要去討論內容所以部長是不是可以把這個部分拉回來歷史不用驗證這個部分歷史蠻重要的不是歷史不需要驗證這個部分的原因是因為大家今天沒有討論這個部分我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":23136.177,"end":23158.793,"text":"欸部長你很糾結然後一直貼我們標籤要刪欸我們明明就說講好事在講動然後你講具體的方案具體的解決報告就可以解動你還在貼我們標籤說我們是要刪我們不知道電影不好嗎我剛剛是不是發言就講說電影真的不好我們在鼓勵然後結果你在那邊一直講說你們你們欸奇怪欸"},{"start":23160.114,"end":23181.105,"text":"我覺得很奇怪部長說實在話大家都教文化委員會委員其實都很希望能夠討論但你一直在講說你們你們部長講話比較不實啊他是第一次參加預算審查嘛對不對辛苦辛苦大家那個來喝個茶喝個茶還有餅乾還有餅乾所有事情都可以那個討論協商"},{"start":23187.261,"end":23214.241,"text":"憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲、憲"},{"start":23217.945,"end":23227.03,"text":"董事長你跟他時間應該要把那個流程講得更清楚沒有時間沒有時間要把握時間那是關鍵因為這樣子就會不會聚焦在你那邊幫我查在1995、1985、1987那要花多少錢"},{"start":23230.552,"end":23245.9,"text":"主席,所以他拿文化部多少錢?我知道1995跟8月我們那個時候都有讀,所以他拿了文化部多少錢?他那時候說市場起來,他講的是康復的嘛,我們講的是遊展,我們講的是預算"},{"start":23255.945,"end":23258.986,"text":"所以1995年8月拿了文化部多少錢?"},{"start":23272.432,"end":23290.828,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23291.948,"end":23304.014,"text":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次"},{"start":23308.704,"end":23322.239,"text":"那個董事長而且從來沒看過人家審預算叫委員要三思了我措辭不當我措辭不當我都不懂我們要三思什麼事情沒有啦所有的委員都一樣不是說要對哪一個委員"},{"start":23323.863,"end":23330.787,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23350.958,"end":23352.52,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23361.849,"end":23385.701,"text":"因為他就是投審會通過,真的不凶阿!因為...對...因為...對...因為...對...因為...對...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為...因為..."},{"start":23387.942,"end":23387.962,"text":"國際培訓"},{"start":23404.685,"end":23417.276,"text":"有很多,其實是有很多非常好的,尤其是參加這些國際獎會去做國際銷售之類的那如果那個凍結的,凍結期最嚴重的情況是因為它會拖比較久,那多那麼久又變成你本來應該要在前期展開情況之中有辦法展開嗎?"},{"start":23431.768,"end":23441.876,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23449.65,"end":23465.179,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":23465.316,"end":23489.718,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23490.971,"end":23491.772,"text":"董事長我好像沒有請你發言"},{"start":23511.209,"end":23537.922,"text":"那個 趙偉對阿 葉元智委員因為我們其實有的是針對很多單項的那有的只是說要他提出書面報告來解凍那你現在一下子7000萬凍結他到時候就幾乎其他的錢該用就用了阿並沒有達到我們解凍要求凍結的目的阿所以你是希望一案一案來我希望至少我那一案我5000萬我希望能夠凍結阿因為我到現在我看不出來說他這個錢到底要怎麼用阿"},{"start":23538.922,"end":23546.105,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23567.353,"end":23581.096,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23595.939,"end":23616.008,"text":"提升國家的一個競爭力我抱持著很大的異議所以我覺得我這個部分應該也要分開來處理還有再來就是111案我們對於文化幣一直在討論文化幣有很多人沒去請領這個部分是不是應該要具體的方案去改進所以這個我也覺得應該跟剛剛"},{"start":23617.569,"end":23645.328,"text":"部長一直糾結的所謂臨時攻擊完全無關所以是不是應該分開來討論最後我還是要再質疑一下趙偉您剛剛說刪除7000萬那你還要不要再對不起依照部長的概念這就是刪除所以我要再問一次我沒有說刪除喔對不起依照部長的概念凍結就是刪除所以我要再跟你確認一下凍結是不是可以用所謂的報告在施以凍之是嗎"},{"start":23647.041,"end":23650.404,"text":"為什麼有人一直提到這是刪除?我真的覺得很遺憾。"},{"start":23678.349,"end":23680.962,"text":"文化部這邊有沒有哪位要再做一個說明"},{"start":23683.94,"end":23684.08,"text":"參議員主席"},{"start":23713.78,"end":23714.74,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23729.087,"end":23759.087,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":23759.527,"end":23785.888,"text":"進行往前的話這個是非常非常大的一個傷害所以我還是希望大家是不是可以因為剛剛有范雲委員有提說凍結一千嘛那也有是兩億的那其實我看起來其中位數大部分在兩千萬以下所以我聽說是如果凍結兩千萬也比原先我們我自己的提案一千萬這個來的高是不是大家可以來討論好謝謝佩儀委員那您的提案是兩千萬喔好有沒有其他的委員如果沒"},{"start":23787.517,"end":23787.977,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23802.028,"end":23827.635,"text":"我希望你們聽懂我們的問題所以他如果拿文化部的錢你可以這樣做類比我們今天審的是程序預算沒有在談內容第二個部分是我122案這邊我一直沒有聽到答案所以雖然剛才我們在電影上有很多的討論但是園區這十幾二十年沒有解決問題我在今天還是沒有聽到答案所以我堅持我這邊雖然動百分之二十但是我尊重張偉張偉說七千"},{"start":23830.316,"end":23843.148,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":23844.178,"end":23844.298,"text":"陳秀寶委員動結5%"},{"start":23864.906,"end":23882.91,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23883.21,"end":23884.211,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23905.894,"end":23928.016,"text":"都是希望整個產界的利益良善所以我要為這些藝文工作者求情我也希望不要貼我們標籤111案有多少現在文化幣所產生出來的漏洞有多少的業者跟消費者在網路上不斷的抨擊我要為他們求情我們希望你們具體的方案來做一個改革變形"},{"start":23928.737,"end":23956.378,"text":"最後我要講的是立法院解凍的時效時間不是取決於立法委員而是你的報告你明天送來如果真的很棒明天就解凍了是取決於你能夠多快速度來給我們更多這些具體的方針讓他們來解凍所以我要為他們求情最後我尊重主席主席如果你願意捅凍我一定尊重但是我希望過程要講清楚說明白主席那我"},{"start":23957.543,"end":23985.55,"text":"等一下我先回應一下齁那個那個聽委員我想我先這邊回應大家啦齁我覺得我們呢稍微把大家情緒放下來一點齁我們拜託大家不要再來求情了今天在這個地方每一個人其實都是為文化工作者為文化產業我們是盡心盡力那我覺得也不要有誰跟誰扣帽子誰跟誰不開心今天在這個地方審查預算我想部長有部長立場我們有我們的立場但是大家都是在為文化盡力跟把關所以我們在做這個討論"},{"start":23986.59,"end":24008.666,"text":"但是我覺得我們不要彼此有這個情緒進去那另外我正要講一下那個解凍案子可能我們還是應該最快是明年5月啦應該是5月還是要排還是要排還是要排案好沒關係來議員執委員我們也針對這一案最後一次發言好嗎來"},{"start":24012.503,"end":24014.326,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24025.741,"end":24026.002,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":24044.878,"end":24069.509,"text":"因為他這個他每個項目都很大然後在你看不出來他到底怎麼使用的狀況底下你捅動他就是隨便用嘛因為之前我在立法院跟部長答詢很多次我都覺得講得很不清楚嘛那今天我們沒有要刪預算啊我們也都支持文化啊現在只是說文化部他在統籌這個預算的時候可以效益越高讓越多人可以得到最大的幫助嘛我不覺得這個東西這個要求有這麼"},{"start":24072.35,"end":24075.871,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24097.637,"end":24098.458,"text":"文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24116.329,"end":24141.005,"text":"那就是說其實跟議員之委員解釋一下其實我們解凍的時候他只要對你的報告不滿意你就可以坐在這邊其實是整幕的那個不管是七千萬一千萬還是三千萬都沒有辦法解凍所以對任何一位委員關心的議題的報告不滿意的話其實當場就跟我們現在討論一樣那個項目是可以不要接受的來來來范委員那如果照你這樣講我們就文化部統凍就好了嗎"},{"start":24142.625,"end":24144.266,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管文化基金附"},{"start":24169.858,"end":24195.678,"text":"跟委員做報告大概幾件事情先回覆委員第一個就是針對文策院投資其實我們要說明的是那個投資的審查基本上是由投審會來做決定那所以在如果是凍結的是文策院的預算的話它影響的其實是文策院的運作那因為文策院的運作其實並不是只有做影視的投資文策院有很多的工作包括去出外參加展會包括去行銷推銷我們的影視的原創作品"},{"start":24196.358,"end":24203.641,"text":"還有其他的投資人才的培育等等所以如果說凍結的是讓我們測驗一般的運作它本來的計畫可以在年初啟動那因為凍結預算調節的關係它可能要變成比較晚才能啟動其實會跟國際的這些展會的時間會有誤差會影響它真實工作可以推動的期程這是為什麼我們說可以"},{"start":24217.205,"end":24218.046,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24239.599,"end":24257.022,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24257.122,"end":24257.922,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":24275.327,"end":24301.64,"text":"現在的文創園區是由文化部收回來自己由生活美學館來經營而在過去是由委外那這個重大的變革是讓我們來重新思考跟定位每個文創園區的定位就以嘉義文創園區來說它現在其實就定位在沉浸的虛擬式藝術所以它現在的方向就往那裡去發展那花蓮的部分它還在跟在地的做結合但我們很清楚的是花蓮的部分我們會進駐一個以AI的音樂創作為主的主題也就是說我們現在"},{"start":24302.68,"end":24303.641,"text":" bicyclist 提供提供"},{"start":24325.273,"end":24326.955,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24341.536,"end":24342.137,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":24372.695,"end":24399.525,"text":"好,謝謝次長說的有比較清楚了,千祈委員還有不一樣的意見嗎?對對,次長不好意思齁,您這邊在我的那個122,我剛才是同意那個,呃,昭緯以他最低的那個額度,我本來是凍結20%,然後大概會有9000多萬喔,但是昭緯的額度是7000嘛齁,然後我尊重昭緯的額度齁,然後另外,你們剛才講的那個定位齁,你們從下鄉去跟人家溝通,一直到現在,很長的一段時間,而且你們的場域都在地方政府,"},{"start":24400.365,"end":24427.817,"text":"都在那個每一個地方齁那我不希望有這種國家集權的方式產生如果地方很願意來經營來合作你們應該要尊重地方有這個機會那你們太多的場域到最後都你們集中處理然後跟地方都沒有連結這個是我非常堅持的齁所以這一點我對於那個凍結對於你們在地方的這個園區的整個定位你們目前的這個方向我不完全認同"},{"start":24429.188,"end":24446.98,"text":"這個部分我們可以再跟委員做討論跟報告但是跟地方的連結的確是我們現在文創園區的主要的方向之一當然是你們自己要做處理啊對對對 但是每個文創園區的確我們會有定位的期待這個部分是不是文化部你可以給那個就是竊取委員更詳細的數據報告要夠詳細好不好"},{"start":24449.642,"end":24449.822,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":24472.057,"end":24492.746,"text":"但是在個別的案子上面因為我們必須要有書面的這個報告書面報告來了以後其實我們在審解鬥案大家其實我們還是可以有一個我們群體力量一起來審查如果到時候他們還是有問題其實這個整目裡頭其實我們還是可以有意見表述的那我們是不是還是以就是全部一起然後7000萬好不好那個原則委員因為這個早上都會這樣處理"},{"start":24499.685,"end":24504.528,"text":"不會啦一定採納的啦我的建議沒被採納其實我真的覺得7000萬太高了因為你看我們這總共第4幕是86案開始到這個124案嘛其實多數都是在5000萬、1000萬以下的有到超過5000萬的其實是只有少數幾個委員的提案而已那如果說最後我們是取7000萬這其實不是多數委員的共識所以我還是認為7000萬有點太高了"},{"start":24526.203,"end":24541.271,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":24544.83,"end":24573.292,"text":"主席這一幕我們討論一個多小時了我很持平的也不帶情緒因為其實文化工作本來大家都是一起努力我想在這個桌子上面的人都希望台灣文化更好所以我希望部長能夠更聽到說不管是執政黨在野黨的委員的聲音其實都是希望台灣文化好文化不好文化強我們國力才會強這一點真的我衷心給予部長的一個建議這一幕總共預算有37億"},{"start":24575.56,"end":24576.861,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":24594.245,"end":24599.028,"text":"：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24624.545,"end":24651.806,"text":"文化部自行來去運資跟調整我覺得這已經是很大的一個讓步跟放寬啦那文化部是不是先思考說有沒有辦法做到那再者剛剛次長有提到其實剛剛次長提到一個概念就是說這個不是完全文策院的補助費用這七億多其實是行政費用所以這又跟剛剛我們有委員發言講說如果說我們現在凍結的話可能很多的什麼戲劇團體沒有辦法拿到補助這是錯誤的"},{"start":24653.147,"end":24668.954,"text":"所以我剛剛其實有聽到委員在講說如果我們凍結多了這個戲劇團體什麼這些作品拿不到補助我那時候我心裡就在想是說這又是故意拿得勾兜菜兜剛剛次長已經還原了這個是行政費用所以我簡單結論"},{"start":24670.435,"end":24696.186,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24696.803,"end":24699.244,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24722.537,"end":24740.708,"text":"不解凍的理由但寫不到位就比較抱歉我想這也是讓文化部我們在這邊委員就是幫人民預算把關所以7500萬是不是請教一下部長能不能可以的話我們就趕快進行下一步不然蔡董事長已經坐太久了我看後面好多位單位的"},{"start":24742.083,"end":24747.746,"text":"主席來處理好了我想謝謝孟凱委員其實我們今天在審查的會議上其實我們就有兩位過去都做過文化局的局長部長跟同仁也都很認真沒錯 孟凱還有慶喜我想大家對文化都很支持我想這個部分真的討論也比較久了我想權宜之際這樣子處理好了"},{"start":24766.676,"end":24793.195,"text":"就是剛才的七千萬然後那個原汁因為他有在這個方面比較執著一點希望這個部裡面之後能夠跟他報告清楚所以就凍結七千五百萬那那個明年的這個解凍反正這個文化部早一點把它提出來然後報告清楚其實這個錢其實我們就解凍就可以使用了其實也沒有那麼多要這樣一直糾結啦這部長可以接受嗎?"},{"start":24797.121,"end":24800.182,"text":"117案吳佩奕委員的案改為主決議"},{"start":24819.977,"end":24847.468,"text":"我們接下來繼續進行第五幕影視及流行音樂發展業務是我們125案一直到我們用節來看好不好到第一節165案125案到165案那我們呢因為早上我們都是從這邊先過去我想這裡面大部分委員都有題嘛那我們就先從孟海委員這邊開始好不好那從孟海委員到原汁委員還是原汁委員先"},{"start":24848.409,"end":24848.589,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24857.588,"end":24858.228,"text":"128案打黃牛辦公室"},{"start":24879.56,"end":24880.08,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24899.815,"end":24903.097,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24925.819,"end":24928.143,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24937.527,"end":24937.827,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":24960.037,"end":24988.563,"text":"另外一個問題就是還出包一直不斷的去貼川普重刑犯的標籤雖然你們有一直說他就是一個重刑犯這是客觀的描述但人家都已經當選總統了還去講說他的支持者在海湖山莊幫他慶祝他是一個重刑犯我是不知道為什麼要一直針對川普去貼標籤所以這個台灣PLUS有必要檢討啦這部分我們是簡列一千萬然後再來"},{"start":24990.182,"end":25008.731,"text":"一百六十八案當時那個我記得有一次文化部來備詢的時候有提到額紹台然後我有提到說他有花了大概一千多萬去進行一個logo的設計一千多萬的logo設計然後在備詢的時候有跟我們提到說"},{"start":25011.214,"end":25014.518,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25032.296,"end":25059.265,"text":"我的提案134案是第19款第一項五目一解是主要是關注我們對於演唱會黃牛票的這個打擊的執行那因為台北市也是我們演唱會經濟很重要的一個城市那我有看到我們台北市議會有議員在關切就是說我們文化部正要有檢舉的平台但是現在所有的黃牛的查緝其實執行單位在地方政府包括文化局然後警察局"},{"start":25059.805,"end":25076.955,"text":"警察局有分局說他們請求金管會幫忙查金流有時候會遇到困難所以這次現在質詢說其實我們有請文化部要去跟地方政府來商討有沒有一個更有效中央跟地方合作起來打擊黃牛票的這個行動這等會我希望文化部可以補充說明好謝謝好接下來我們請羅廷偉廷偉"},{"start":25091.175,"end":25120.361,"text":"我是129案那我想大家都對於這個黃牛的部分都非常的關切在這一次我們成功的看到周杰倫的演唱會在事前賣票產生了網路的哀嚎到演唱會正在演奏的過程當中現場有許多人在求票所發生的一個亂象就可以知道黃牛的猖獗以及這麼多人求不到票"},{"start":25120.981,"end":25138.763,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25140.367,"end":25167.202,"text":"謝謝本席在第五幕有三個提案但因為有一個是在第二集我就先略過不說那主要講第138案跟第154案那第138案是關於文化部打擊黃牛的成效那文化部我們一直在了解那文化部的回覆目前是主要透過加強查緝跟補助實名制的方式在打擊黃牛那我還是想要先講說加強查緝的部分現在熱門演唱會的門票"},{"start":25168.983,"end":25192.919,"text":"二手轉售票券平台上隨便查都可以查得到那這些二手票券平台上的加價轉售的行為隨便看也都有那文化部到底查還是不查呢那其次呢文化部說補助實名制這個做法當然有助於打擊黃牛113年文化部補助的30場藝文展演共花了970萬但是呢像黃牛飯店演唱會例如張學友啊"},{"start":25193.379,"end":25217.945,"text":"周杰倫都不在實名制的補助範圍之內也就是說文化部的補助基金是被動的假設主辦方不來申請文化部一點辦法都沒有然後呢就看到網友刷一整排的在哭這是有效防止黃牛的手段嗎這個我覺得還是有意義所以我們希望在預算這邊有一些凍結來希望得到更好的答覆那第154案則是補助台灣Plus"},{"start":25220.765,"end":25223.787,"text":"台灣PLUS計劃總經費58億元2021-2023年28.8億元2024年花部補助公司10.5億元2025年再編列10.3億元一般600人規模的商業電台製作費令季全年人事與事業管理支出4-6億元"},{"start":25244.384,"end":25261.546,"text":"到底為什麼樣子台灣PLUS一個頻道一年就要燒10億呢當然我想利益良善我們希望台灣的聲音可以被全世界看到但我希望主管機關或者相關執行的單位要去查一下這個世界上所謂相關的行業的"},{"start":25262.563,"end":25290.764,"text":"支出跟消耗的標準我們剛剛看到我剛剛還特地查了一下台灣YouTuber前10名2024年的前10名加起來一個月他們帳面上就是說這個YouTube這個頻道上給他們的收入525萬525萬一個月10名加起來所以一年加起來6300萬我們可以說是這個頻道YouTube給他們的產值一年結果我們一年給公視的補助就是10億"},{"start":25292.065,"end":25307.012,"text":"等於是你們給公視去創造的這個資源你如果全部拿去投我們的這些YouTuber這些創作者還有剩很多啊所以這個到底是不是一個符合道理的一個補助方法"},{"start":25307.712,"end":25328.851,"text":"當然你可以說裡面有些APP啊什麼但事實上這個頻道跟你的知名度你的訊息傳出去的這個比例也是要符合比例原則嘛每年高達10億目標達成率連審計部報告裡也說目標達成率只有一成所以你看我們剛剛的計算是非常合理的啊整個YouTuber前10名加起來6300萬的產值"},{"start":25331.933,"end":25347.94,"text":"結果我們是一年十億進去確實就是十分之一啊所以難怪你只能達到一成嘛這很顯然這是一個數學、科學的問題你沒有辦法到達行銷台灣的計畫你燒掉這麼多錢還有引發危機這個我們剛剛都提過我就不多講所以我想"},{"start":25349.212,"end":25375.805,"text":"部長或者其他的同仁都應該有責任要對這樣子大家都非常關注不是說不該花錢不是說不應該有台灣plus這個精神我們是非常認同的但是錢都是名值名高我們每一個人都非常努力的在賺錢繳稅包含我們的youtuber他們看到這些數字自己是不是會懷疑自己到底在幹嘛所以部長還有同仁應該要好好提出說明謝謝"},{"start":25379.724,"end":25399.063,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請倩熙委員在這個項目裡面我提了大概7到8案那剛才跟其他委員接近的有關於黃牛有關於台灣Plus的部分我想就請待會部裡面一併回答但是我這邊在141案我這邊有個問題"},{"start":25401.485,"end":25425.715,"text":"就是我們知道在人才的這個出國住村以前我們常常在藝術家這個部分是非常頻繁但是為什麼影視人才你們要出這個有出國住村我不知道我沒有理解錯誤究竟是你們送人才出去然後如果是這樣評選的機制是如何那還是說這個部裡面相關的或者是其他你們委託的單位或人"},{"start":25426.135,"end":25449.206,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25449.586,"end":25457.51,"text":"在現在這所謂的硬體或者是整建的這個部分還有一些流行性的狀況所以我需要更細緻一點的這個說明那"},{"start":25461.311,"end":25484.09,"text":"另外在165案這邊我想了解一下這個推動台灣流行音樂經典風華在線那我們知道流行音樂其實你只要給他多一點空間給他一個支持的平台他就會發展那我不知道你們這個流行音樂究竟你要你究竟要引領他們怎麼做"},{"start":25484.71,"end":25485.451,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":25507.018,"end":25534.017,"text":"這一節裡面我提出了兩個一個是第150案有關於案內影視基地發展的一個計劃那根據這個預算中心也有特別提到目前為止因為114年度你增加辦理這樣的一個計劃用以剩餘的補助台南市政府發展的這樣的影視基地只是你們到了今年9月底都還沒有獲得行政院的一個核定"},{"start":25534.597,"end":25545.647,"text":"而且要這個計劃被評估為是不具有自償能力跟投資效益的而且你採完工營運的30年評估年期自償率只有26.25而且淨限值為負的17.8億"},{"start":25550.191,"end":25550.931,"text":"內部投資報酬率為負數,不具有自償能力及財務投資效益。"},{"start":25572.617,"end":25589.884,"text":"大家都知道這個觀看的次數不管在youtube或是app它的數字的確是讓大家覺得是我說實在以花這麼多錢來只得到這樣一個效益真的是有很大的改進空間大家最想做的希望更多人像美洲也不過才16.44那歐洲大概也只有7.9"},{"start":25593.686,"end":25595.268,"text":"大洋洲114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25609.685,"end":25611.126,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25629.753,"end":25639.663,"text":"我們是否在明年114年還要給予這麼多的錢我覺得除非提出一個非常強大的一個改進的計畫否則這其實很難說服我們所有的委員了"},{"start":25644.86,"end":25664.235,"text":"范芸緯委員我這邊主要是第127案那就是我之前質詢的時候有特別關心影視界的職安的問題那因為一直督促文化部要發展第三方的監督機制所以希望能夠看到更完整規劃的建制的期程"},{"start":25664.735,"end":25694.735,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25694.835,"end":25696.597,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":25714.292,"end":25717.094,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25742.176,"end":25772.176,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":25772.356,"end":25792.973,"text":"就是穿起族服演奏口黃琴來進行華語教學這樣好像有點傷害台灣PLUS的平台形象伊金委員可以繼續講了嗎?那交給你繼續講那以上這個部分希望一起說明等一下秀寶然後雅琳"},{"start":25798.184,"end":25799.584,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部"},{"start":25826.195,"end":25837.576,"text":"海岸PLUS到底現在我們的未來走向是如何我們的APP當初一開始的時候發下豪語是說要百萬下載那現在沒有只有20萬左右那"},{"start":25838.663,"end":25841.025,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25864.605,"end":25866.066,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部"},{"start":25884.173,"end":25913.333,"text":"所以這個第一個部分153的狀況本期有簡列也有凍結但是我們還是想要聽到說部長到底你對於未來台灣plus要怎麼走那如果說真的還是要壯士斷腕這是一個部分那另外我也要echo一下剛剛有講到的那個黃牛票的一個打詐的部分其實今年是值得參考的一年因為今年蠻多的國內外大型藝人其實都有來台灣開演唱會那其中像有推行實名制的演唱會"},{"start":25916.175,"end":25934.175,"text":"確實真的看不管是媒體也好或說這個社群媒體平台等等的有推行實名制演唱會的歌手或者是團體他們的黃牛爭議相對少非常的多為什麼因為第一他們是用有一些是用抽籤的方式先登記"},{"start":25935.276,"end":25936.337,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":25951.766,"end":25970.657,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25970.777,"end":25994.257,"text":"那如果說我之前在質詢的時候也有講過說我們有沒有可能跟幾個大型的售票平台來去請他們加強這個治安就是防止這個掃票機器人的一個介入那至少我們可以鼓勵推動尤其是真的熱門的演唱會以我們公部門的一個角色能不能要求說至少都要有一定的實名制的比例讓真的想要看演唱會的人"},{"start":25994.958,"end":26022.06,"text":"是用實名制的方式來去參與來避免後面的一個紛爭我覺得我相信部長一定有這個相關的一個資料或是說同仁一定有收集或整理幾個大型的演唱會用抽籤的方式登記的它的爭議非常少用實名制的方式的它的黃牛票相對轉賣的能力比例也都低這一點我希望文化部這邊能夠參考那來做以後政策的執行盡盡實用以上謝謝"},{"start":26023.387,"end":26025.409,"text":"謝謝孟凱,我們有請秀寶委員謝謝主席,在這一幕第一節的部分我這邊有三個案子分別是132案、158案以及第164案那在132案的部分是關於我們允士英的政策規劃補助與跨域整合"},{"start":26045.004,"end":26061.86,"text":"其實這個還是要提到關於黃牛票的問題像這次周杰倫演唱會的黃牛票實在是真的非常的嚴重黃牛票的檢舉案件高達3000多件已經快到今年總檢舉案件數的一半那很大的一個原因就是演唱會我們就是一直沒有辦法用實名"},{"start":26062.501,"end":26081.939,"text":"議員提供的說明是說因為沒有辦法強制要求業者實施實名制所以只能用鼓勵的方式這種手段來倡議那現在也是有積極的跟地方政府來洽談一文票券的使用來用實名制的這個方式來鼓勵措施包含優先挑選場館時間場地租借優惠等等"},{"start":26082.72,"end":26084.54,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26109.396,"end":26112.177,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26128.742,"end":26155.98,"text":"除了補助額上的節目直播之外公視這邊也跟產業簽訂合作意向書會在人才、教育及製作方面進行相關的合作來培育相關的人才那這邊我也希望說公視在直播額上節目方面可以持續提高補助我們來提升產量及品質那這個案子我可以改成主決議那在164案的部分呢文化部這邊來說明就是說OTT平台整合需要就是看產業需求以及商業機制來決定"},{"start":26157.721,"end":26178.92,"text":"這樣的說法我是可以接受但是文化部這邊還是要正視未來影視音的這個通路的問題總不能說我們只播優質的影視音的產品但是我們並沒有通路來播放那文化部要怎麼樣來擴大跟國際間的串流平台的合作是要協助本土的這個OTT平台提升訂閱率那還是說"},{"start":26179.961,"end":26191.691,"text":"我們有訂定怎樣的推動目標及規劃文化部這邊到底準備的怎麼樣這邊我希望說文化部給我個說明那本身這個提動的金額本來是五百萬我也沒有堅持一定要那麼多可以跟其他的案子和平處理"},{"start":26192.705,"end":26222.705,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":26225.426,"end":26244.25,"text":"第162案有關台湾Plus,最主要是針對有一些新聞報導,好像缺乏了一些對於我們台灣的一些歷史跟國際社會的一些脈動,所以我們就會造成了像這個他在228的時候,直播了一個叫做Changkai Shares Legacy,"},{"start":26245.37,"end":26264.443,"text":"在賴總統的國慶演說,因為大家雖然有一些質疑,但是我想應該不至於用到approven controversial,approven這個字其實就是證實這個字,可是他應該不在這個字,因為這兩個詞呢其實我也跟外媒確認過。外國的媒體也會覺得這樣子的,如果要這樣論述也是有一點concern的。"},{"start":26265.418,"end":26270.06,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26294.957,"end":26307.466,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":26312.389,"end":26333.829,"text":"137案當然就是針對關注黃牛票的問題那針對黃牛票的問題我想我們委員會的各個委員幾乎質詢過N次那麼透過每一次的提案其實我們就是在檢討文化部所設置這個黃牛檢舉的機制那就根本面來看我覺得黃牛根本檢舉不完"},{"start":26334.97,"end":26349.245,"text":"因為抓黃牛這件事情的成本跟風險會轉嫁給購票的民眾恐怕也不是一項負責任的表現那理論上民眾和檢舉當然是要有配套那政府的實質打黃牛的作為才是主軸"},{"start":26351.407,"end":26367.278,"text":"舉例來講,黃流票主要流動的管道當然是透過社群的網站、電商的平台還有二手票券的這個網站。那也因此若即時下架這個違法交易票券的這個貼文就顯得相當重要。"},{"start":26367.978,"end":26371.2,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26383.707,"end":26401.086,"text":"至去年8月我們有票券實名制補助最要點發布之後其實鼓勵通過鼓勵的方式來讓業者採取實名制喔到現在已經有78場的演唱會實施那我想請文化部也再進一步說明未來怎麼樣擴大"},{"start":26402.567,"end":26418.642,"text":"實名制的效益。當然還是要請教文化部對免費票券的黃牛票該如何來管制,這部分也等一下請我並做說明。至於要動多少,等一下跟大家一起討論。另外是"},{"start":26424.604,"end":26430.132,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26434.633,"end":26457.931,"text":"好,不好意思我是151案齁那剛剛沒有講到那我想台灣plus前面的孟凱委員有說到我想我們的態度都是一致的齁那雖然我這邊是簡列8億5千萬但是我跟這個昭緯大家一起來討論怎麼樣最適當的一個方式我們可以再來討論沒關係好,來我們請文化部做以上的說明"},{"start":26461.715,"end":26461.735,"text":"黃劉檢舉案"},{"start":26479.669,"end":26506.917,"text":"實名制本身在各國都沒有辦法用強制實施所以我們剛開始我們都是用補助地方場館用實名制我們補助了78場目前有合計34場但是更有效的還是要回到地方政府的那個場館本身如果他能夠用一些租界本身的限制來會比我們用這樣子一個動用很大的機制去去防止會有更有效那但是"},{"start":26507.657,"end":26533.645,"text":"我們和內政部警政署跟刑事警察局地方政府還有那個售票平臺一直保持合作去過濾一些異常的這個帳號是目前我們在做的一些環流的部分然後剛剛講到案內隱私基地我解釋一下案內當初是因為要拍斯卡羅之後他們就在裡面找起來的所以案內隱私基地並不是一個在有計劃下開始的"},{"start":26533.865,"end":26556.049,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26556.049,"end":26577.585,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26577.745,"end":26594.684,"text":"一定要用民間的資源進來去營運這個片場而不可能是由原來台南市他單獨的力量來做好那以上我想到大家比較關切的剩下我想請市長還有董事長來回答"},{"start":26595.865,"end":26596.385,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":26618.243,"end":26619.403,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26639.068,"end":26658.307,"text":"主辦單位這邊來跟他溝通說明希望他們可以採取實名就我們這邊可以來提供一些協助不過確實對國內來講因為其實大家會看到去年才是一個比較大引進的時間那很多國內單位他其實本來是沒有這樣子相關的經驗他們不見得願意採取包括剛剛委員有提到的這個張學偉或是周杰倫部分"},{"start":26658.607,"end":26659.347,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外。"},{"start":26684.339,"end":26712.315,"text":"法令上無法強制執行的狀況之下因為畢竟要參考各國的經驗期確實不太適合用這個方式來做商業機制的處理但我們還是會持續的用定期來跟各個主辦和受到平台主動的請他們來能夠使用實名制或實名加抽選那另外一個在跟地方政府的合作部分我們也預計要跟他們在做開會基本上其實因為這些剛剛部長也提到我們目前有發現其實大部分的場館還是會集中在幾個六都市政府這邊"},{"start":26712.995,"end":26728.012,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26728.052,"end":26730.713,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26758.383,"end":26775.104,"text":"另外剛剛委員有提到的關於住村的部分倩琦委員提到這個住村我們其實影視的住村它其實是跟著我們部內的其他住村人才因為我們其實是有一個相關領域出國住村交流的一個案子補助案"},{"start":26775.904,"end":26795.559,"text":"各領域包括表演藝術、視覺藝術、影視因因經費編在這裡同一個補助要點去收理補助收理之後我們會叫外部委員來做審核跟確認補助每年大概是兩位左右其他精神是主動由文化部來跟國外重要的藝術村先做洽談"},{"start":26796.52,"end":26798.602,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26820.498,"end":26821.799,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26843.988,"end":26870.142,"text":"那最後範圍委員這邊有提到關於職案的部分就是由我們影視局這邊來做處理那也再跟委員做一次進一步的報告是目前就是臺北市的電影職業工會他其實有跟地方的勞動機關來提出這個職案訓練中心的一個案子來提出準備設立那影視局這邊也會持續跟他們做資訊的了解那我們會用專案合作或者是在職案訓練手冊的訂定上面來繼續來做努力那台灣plus的部分"},{"start":26873.599,"end":26891.285,"text":"謝謝委員,剛才就公司基金會負責的小公事還有他們公司的部分提出很多寶貴的意見我想那個意見對我們來講都是一個需要加以解釋也是進步的動力那因為時間的限制,我盡可能的就幾個要點跟委員做個說明"},{"start":26892.005,"end":26910.06,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26911.02,"end":26923.665,"text":"5個ID,這5個代表性角色而且基本上都是將來就全力在我們手上那這個部分就有所知目前5個代表角色裡面像PX他已經成為非常多的小朋友喜歡的一個對象"},{"start":26924.999,"end":26942.277,"text":"另外還包括了頻道的各種包裝形象的ID、台呼station的這個ID等等還有各種台標、測標的設計另外還有音樂、音樂也含過在裡面設計到音樂版權另外有社群排版的設計還有人力等等"},{"start":26942.897,"end":26961.05,"text":"這些作業才整體成為這個案子的一個內容所以它的效益加上這個公司事實上是國際重要的得獎公司那也是國內包括金馬獎的設計公司其實是就我們了解它的頻道發放費用跟我們來講是相當合理"},{"start":26961.93,"end":26983.258,"text":"第二部分關於Time Pass的部分很多委員關心這個部分我想的確我們還有很多可以再充實的空間不過就是Time Pass我們還是要跟委員說明一下第一年在中央社那第二年跟第三年現在在公使基金會那也就是換句話來講Time Pass成立到現在才三年多的時間"},{"start":26984.538,"end":26994.021,"text":"這三年多的時間說實在的這個我舉一個例子好了就是以韓國的這個阿里昂頻道他整體結合了韓國的軟硬實力"},{"start":27000.623,"end":27016.049,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27016.129,"end":27044.118,"text":"早期這個APP因為是的確是有定義這樣的一個KPI不過後來大家檢討以後發現事實上現在國際上對於這個APP的使用率都在下降中所以我們另外訂了三個很重要的這個KPI包括觀看時數、觀看次數還有觀眾的滿意度所以換句話來講我們是從不同的面向來去檢測它的績效那剛才委員關注那個關於區域的部分那我們的確是面向全球不過還是要解釋一下"},{"start":27044.838,"end":27070.452,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27070.572,"end":27076.438,"text":"最後一個委員關注比較多的就是關於convicted felon這個事情"},{"start":27092.253,"end":27116.792,"text":"我想可能各位也都看到了前行政院長陳聰最近還講的這個事情他認為convicted felon他請所有的人去查在各國使用這個字所謂被定罪的罪犯這到底是不是一個不符合事實還是不普遍使用我必須跟大家講這事實上我們查過BBC、ABC、PBS其他國家公共電視它的確是一個事實的陳述"},{"start":27117.372,"end":27136.913,"text":"但我們認為我們在使用它的敘述脈絡有問題這是我們對這個事情的簡單說明但整個來講我們的核稿流程已經成立一個獨立的三人的專案委員的小組來幫我們做檢視那剛才各位委員所貫注的部分在核稿流程核稿人力的配置上我們都會加以強化以上先做這樣的報告謝謝"},{"start":27142.02,"end":27142.4,"text":"主席主席好"},{"start":27171.025,"end":27199.614,"text":"議員之委員也是新的發言不是舊的嗎?他沒有回答我的問題打黃牛辦公室打黃牛辦公室打黃牛辦公室我剛剛講說打黃牛辦公室資料是不給我們然後今天報告也都不給我們這樣沒有辦法針對議員之委員的問題回答好嗎?剛剛委員今天報告就是那個黃牛辦公室的部分主要是因為他的資料比較多所以之前還來不及給委員那我們目前其實已經整體檢視跟整理完成我們可以再提供"},{"start":27200.854,"end":27221.089,"text":"我沒有要你全部的案子啊,我現在要看你編的很多項目不合理啊,要有那個效益評估報告啊。好,那什麼時候可以把這個結案報告提供給議員?因為他那個單位我剛剛已經講了嘛,就是沒有效益,而且那個"},{"start":27222.906,"end":27224.747,"text":"委員會主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27236.277,"end":27259.525,"text":"不是啦 那個 趙偉沒有人說平常我們要資料都不給然後要到審預算的時候說馬上給那我們一年只有一次可以要資料喔沒有沒有 那個是本來要資料就要給但現在針對這個問題還是要說你什麼資料不給啊因為既然他平常都不給那我們預算當然就不可能通過嘛預算等一下再來處理嘛好不好 預算等一下我會來處理那但現在先說嘛你什麼時候要把這個報告給我們業人之委員明天嗎明天中午以前好不好好 那我們現在進行到"},{"start":27267.878,"end":27274.041,"text":"我就很想知道為什麼平常要資料都不給咧?為什麼都不給資料?一定要說你凍結預算才給資料,可以這樣迴避監督搞黑箱嗎?委員不好意思,是我們這邊動作比較慢一點,因為他其實...那個報告大概有...因為那個...你發言你就發言嘛,那我現在在跟他對話為什麼你要幫他戰勝?"},{"start":27301.432,"end":27325.602,"text":"主要是因為他的結案報告其實有大概有700多頁那其實我們同仁這邊也是要逐頁逐頁的去做一些整理跟檢視然後也有的是因為我們現在要做結案所以這個驗收我們都要依照這些規定其實有一些需要他補充資料的說明所以抱歉我們前面可能委員在詢問的時候我們真的還沒有整個整理完跟驗收完成所以我們現在其實是已經整個整理完驗收完成所以我們這邊會整理給委員們"},{"start":27327.455,"end":27329.256,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化"},{"start":27351.229,"end":27352.29,"text":"議員提到的報告是這樣的議員提到的報告是這樣的"},{"start":27383.05,"end":27383.89,"text":"沛逸委員"},{"start":27409.165,"end":27421.709,"text":"主席,我的174案就關於公視台與台的人才。對不起,我們現在是到165案。抱歉抱歉,那我等會再補充。好,待會再說。好,謝謝。好,那慶幸委員是針對新的,那個141這邊齁,那個我對於影視,影視師編這個預算我還是很質疑齁,因為你們那個"},{"start":27433.274,"end":27435.995,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27461.305,"end":27489.377,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27492.142,"end":27492.322,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":27515.097,"end":27531.925,"text":"好 那我們應該該詢問該說明的我們都完成了我想我們進行到來處理好不好我們現在看到我們125案到165案第二幕第一屆的部分那我們有的委員有提議檢列8億5000萬我們也有委員提議檢列2億5000萬那1950萬的都有那另外凍結的部分的話有凍結5億的"},{"start":27543.51,"end":27561.395,"text":"也有凍結一億的等等我想是不是大家我們可以今天有個共識看看在第一節的部分幾個重點不管是這個打黃牛打擊黃牛或是台灣plus以及其他這幾個案子我們大家有一個共識看怎麼簡略怎麼凍結大家需要休息一下討論一下嗎好那我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":27571.949,"end":27573.991,"text":"剪裂嗎?你們都沒有剪裂嗎?剪兩百?剪一千九?"},{"start":27596.191,"end":27599.674,"text":"主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":27612.264,"end":27616.225,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27636.13,"end":27637.651,"text":"有沒有管理人?"},{"start":27652.975,"end":27656.457,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27675.185,"end":27677.467,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立"},{"start":27691.542,"end":27694.545,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27716.263,"end":27719.724,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27743.112,"end":27755.441,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27770.245,"end":27773.447,"text":"因為這個是很重要的台灣會沒有我是說現在"},{"start":27792.761,"end":27803.988,"text":"這是...哪一個部分?有啊,我們有排時間,都有啦!所以我們要排那麼多?他們有改進的空間啦!我就覺得才三年,是不是我們再給他...小棟就可以了啦!我也不堅持啊,兩百也可以啊!"},{"start":27822.159,"end":27827.742,"text":"我們想要把它除掉,不能拔掉,不能拔掉,不能拔掉,不能拔掉,不能拔掉,不能拔掉,不能拔掉,不能拔掉"},{"start":27847.754,"end":27850.936,"text":"美國、歐洲我們現在都不限,因為都要談判、要簽約、要付到錢"},{"start":27867.404,"end":27871.947,"text":"主管國立文化基金總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27887.916,"end":27890.339,"text":"我們還會放在桌上嗎?應該是過山沒吃過餐。今天審得完嗎?我們也不要加班陪審"},{"start":27906.357,"end":27907.278,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27924.473,"end":27927.355,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":27952.407,"end":27957.849,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27976.295,"end":27977.857,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":27999.995,"end":28003.197,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28042.875,"end":28043.816,"text":"審查預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28056.438,"end":28083.596,"text":"第五幕的第1節125萬到165萬大家充分發言過了那現在針對現在看到這個簡列從8億5到1950萬到8億5都有那凍結的部分的數額也很多那現在就是大家討論有沒有一個就是一個想法現在要凍多少減多少那個有沒有哪一位要先提"},{"start":28088.075,"end":28088.355,"text":"秀巴委員"},{"start":28104.959,"end":28105.579,"text":"我們就直接講預算喔"},{"start":28130.046,"end":28158.721,"text":"我是同意秀寶委員的動500因為想說這個頻道其實它還是有存在的一個必要啦因為讓國界看到台灣所以這個部分他們也都一直都在努力那范芸委員有沒有或是怡瑾怡瑾不然折衷一下好了啦就是說那個雅玲是3000嘛那秀寶跟那個玉琴是500所以我想不然就這個1500好不好好1500那范芸委員"},{"start":28160.196,"end":28189.189,"text":"檸檬檸檬"},{"start":28190.725,"end":28213.063,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28213.968,"end":28236.476,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28237.432,"end":28247.927,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28250.725,"end":28251.785,"text":"法院委員"},{"start":28274.72,"end":28303.502,"text":"我也是覺得這個動武藝這個太誇張了因為剛剛大家的意見主要是針對黃牛票跟台灣plus黃牛票當然我也還不夠滿意可是從過去四年來看他是有不斷的在進步那現在大家比較是針對方法細節或者如何鼓勵實名制那我之前也一直在質詢希望鼓勵實名制但是看到各國的經驗他其實目前比較適合是獎勵的方向"},{"start":28303.882,"end":28329.701,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28329.701,"end":28348.166,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28348.166,"end":28372.142,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28372.222,"end":28396.316,"text":"那簡直就是叫他直接解散啦那我是不覺得就是說現在大家要做這個決定啦以上謝謝范議員委員還有沒有哪位委員要表達意見那我可不可以提一下我覺得我們是不是就動個類似說四千或是五千我們已經這樣增加很多了然後"},{"start":28397.452,"end":28397.512,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":28407.645,"end":28435.255,"text":"我想剛剛因為聽大家很多委員可能都是對台灣Plus的想法或者是意見比較多那我想真的是愛生則切啦那可是既然愛生的話就真的還是要給他機會因為我覺得台灣Plus還是一個很重要讓世界認識台灣的時事文化跟價值一個很重要的平台那可能三年大家覺得他成績非常有限"},{"start":28436.215,"end":28461.328,"text":"提升訂閱數跟流量我想是現在首重之重那還是要給他機會去有沒有機會去提升我們訂閱數跟流量那如果說再給一兩年還是沒有辦法那我們真的要來重新檢討台灣普拉斯要不要存在或者要不要經營下去的問題可是我覺得現在現階段他確實還是有很多的這個看得出來初步的成果我剛剛"},{"start":28461.988,"end":28483.524,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":28483.524,"end":28502.21,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28502.35,"end":28503.391,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28523.903,"end":28524.224,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":28538.507,"end":28554.189,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":28554.608,"end":28578.148,"text":"我們今天如果是放手的話不要是剪裂那麼多不要凍結那麼多可是呢就在明年預算一年當中你告訴我可以跟CNN可以跟半島做這些簽約可不可以馬上就做一個前提如果你們明年做不到整個的部分也開放後台啊不是現在到處都是印度人或是那些納吉利亞人大家都看到這後台是這樣子的一個處理的方法"},{"start":28580.23,"end":28581.391,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28598.34,"end":28600.262,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28620.274,"end":28643.88,"text":"原則委員我比較支持剛剛趙偉講的數字因為現在說要再給機會之前就是做不好嘛那你同樣的團隊繼續做會做得比較好嗎我非常懷疑啦而且我們之前在答詢的時候現在的問題是現在的TIME PLUS的團隊是自我感覺良好就大家提出很多問題他們都覺得他們沒有問題那所以你既然大家都覺得有問題他們覺得沒問題你給他錢他還是做一樣東西出來"},{"start":28646.906,"end":28662.368,"text":"所以我不覺得說繼續做會做更好我反而覺得應該要止損啊應該要停損啊除非是要提出一個你們不一樣的思維出來啊因為你們現在都覺得你們很棒啊我覺得跟外界想的差很多啦"},{"start":28667.776,"end":28684.661,"text":"下一位聽委員我想說我也認同前面幾位委員講的一些事情就是說因為世界其實都很想了解台灣但是我也理解說我們在一個新的媒體上面的確需要摸索就像孩子需要摸索需要時間他可能需要累積一段時間的經驗"},{"start":28686.181,"end":28686.862,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28716.639,"end":28720.321,"text":"這個我也是希望TIME PLUS未來可以提出相關的說明。謝謝。"},{"start":28728.561,"end":28748.446,"text":"好,那我想這個是明年的預算,我們要對國人負責,那這是人民的血汗錢,那當然剛剛有委員所提到就是要透過試錯才能夠修正,所以就代表這今年度就是有犯錯,那我們簡單來講考試如果沒有考及格,那為什麼我們要給通過?"},{"start":28749.735,"end":28750.175,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28767.344,"end":28782.41,"text":"所以今天才會有這樣子的一個狀況所以我們我們附議就是剛剛不管是召委所提的一個數字我想很多的委員我們這邊的委員都有在做剛剛休息時間有討論我們是希望能夠以召委的版本來做一個通過"},{"start":28786.684,"end":28786.884,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":28817.264,"end":28818.805,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28846.255,"end":28847.296,"text":"部長,很實在的說這絕對不是少數幾個委員坐在這邊的意思"},{"start":28876.789,"end":28900.053,"text":"如果說問全台灣2350萬人有做民調的話第一有多少人知道現在有所謂的台灣Plus第二它的功能在過去三年有達到什麼樣的一個成果以及第三我們講的最明確的KPI當初的百萬雄心壯志到現在20萬五分之一百分之二十的達成率"},{"start":28901.636,"end":28922.894,"text":"我們已經給了三年的時間當然部長上任只有半年但是過去到現在不管是史哲部長不管是之前的李永德部長就是持續的來做這樣的一個部分那你現在要考驗國人的耐心或是我們到底要多久的時間你可以達到還是一輩子達不到"},{"start":28924.813,"end":28948.053,"text":"所以我覺得剛剛昭偉過去到現在其實我們都一樣的想法就是恨鐵不成鋼那你到底是不是這是一個無底洞我們要投入多少然後還有就是說已經每年其實預算都是老問題每年預算都是說罵罵罵罵了之後然後到最後還是給你們做啊過去還是給你們做但是就是做不出成果做不出成效做不出成績啊"},{"start":28949.335,"end":28977.284,"text":"所以一樣我覺得現在看很多客觀的東西不要說是少數人的意見絕對不是多數人我相信國人是支持發展文化發展宣傳但是把錢花在刀口上那如果說真的沒有辦法發揮這個功能的話那是不是我們把一些錢省下來幫國庫省點錢用在更合宜用在更有效率用在更能夠讓台灣的聲音被聽見的地方"},{"start":28978.553,"end":29003.735,"text":"所以剛剛召委的一個部分我覺得是真的是可以考慮那搭委員的想法怎麼樣我想我自己是提出來是簡列五千萬凍結五千萬但是我覺得還是一樣部長也要說明一下是說到底你針對現在這提出來的一個方向你能不能做得到還是說你有什麼樣的想法以上謝謝好那還有沒有哪位委員好配意"},{"start":29008.12,"end":29034.354,"text":"好,這一節很多討論集中在台灣Plus台灣Plus有沒有需要更加精進?需要有沒有要檢討的地方?有所以我自己也有提案我提案就是檢列兩百萬但是台灣Plus台灣需不需要這樣國際性的自媒體?我們也需要所以我希望各位委員可以衡量因為我非常壓抑我剛剛看到有一案151案這六天月委員的提案總共預算也才十億多要檢列八億就其實你就直接講你就是要把台灣Plus收掉嘛"},{"start":29035.094,"end":29035.835,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29053.206,"end":29070.276,"text":"要檢列台灣Plus 8億的預算的說明他說因為台灣Plus集中對於柯文哲等反對黨政治人物的負面報導卻沒有看到超時案的報導我覺得這個是在做政治性的審查因為我去看了一下柯文哲等反對黨政治人物的報導只有台灣Plus報嗎?沒有啊國際外媒、BBC、路透社、紐約時報、朝日、獨賣新聞通通都有報導啊"},{"start":29076.68,"end":29079.182,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29106.496,"end":29131.771,"text":"好謝謝委員對我們的一個指教那但很可惜委員只提到其一卻沒有提到其二我想我的內容提案說得很清楚不只是對於特定執政黨所犯的一些貪腐這些沒有報導之外我們還有特別提到有關於這個時任總統候選人川普的一個報導這是何其嚴重讓國際看到台灣的笑話"},{"start":29133.032,"end":29157.634,"text":"我們一定支持中華民國以及台灣要被世界看到我們一定支持文化部編列預算讓國際看到台灣但是目前看到台灣Plus的這個計畫就是有問題我們也歡迎提出更有具體並且瞬間或者是能夠有時程的讓台灣被看到的一個方案我們一定會支持但現階段我們看到三年的計畫"},{"start":29158.855,"end":29174.549,"text":"這個部分有問題所以明年人民的納稅前一定強烈的一個審核我想一定要把所有的提案全部說明而不是只提到自己想說的就把它給貼標籤說它是一個政治的一個審查裡面也有提到不住的金額"},{"start":29175.309,"end":29203.101,"text":"如果在2025年總補助金額突破40億這一筆巨額公共資金使用率低下對於財政而言是一個極大的浪費剛剛洪孟凱委員也有提到APP下載的量是極低上一次對於台灣PLUS的一個質詢有多少外委員會的委員都一起紛紛來質詢這一案甚至有委員在此委員會教育文化委員會直接問大家你有下載APP嗎有的請舉手"},{"start":29204.862,"end":29220.455,"text":"當時都還算是少數所以我要強調的是不要去政治標籤貼我們說是政治審查我們都是為了人民的納稅錢來做嚴格的把關那我希望提案的部分我已經很充分的說明有沒有其他的委員沒有那我們就來董事長先回覆一下"},{"start":29234.833,"end":29262.484,"text":"謝謝委員我還是要特別表示我想所有的督促所有的檢討都是我們該做不過真的還是要跟您提幾件事第一件事情我們APP這個指標是當年第一年訂的確當時訂很理想化但是我們後面訂的是瀏覽次數剛才報告瀏覽時數跟滿意度這幾個每年都是在增加這數字大概也跟委員報告過第二我們並不是只有報導"},{"start":29263.925,"end":29287.905,"text":"反對黨的貪污事件那是因為時序的部分所以上次也跟您報告在後面在您目前找執政黨的貪污人員的新聞也都在平台上第三個就您放心您剛才談的那些期許還有剛才委員所談的那些改進這都是我們要努力其實對我來講有或沒有對我少一件事情沒有什麼不好"},{"start":29288.385,"end":29311.094,"text":"但是它真的是一個台灣對外溝通聯繫重要的頻道因為現在我不瞞您說太多的外交人員太多的對外聯繫全部都是靠著台灣Plus我這個必須很坦誠地講有些事情可以說有些事情不方便說並不是什麼秘密任務而是外籍人士對我們的認知我們是被動的了解所以這些事情還是要跟你們報告一下"},{"start":29316.19,"end":29337.297,"text":"我們都充分的在彼此說明了是不是我們請部長再表達一下你的意見我們台灣的訊息可以到全世界其實我們的處境真的蠻辛苦用各種頻道所以我想到大概是簡列200萬動5000萬可以嗎"},{"start":29342.642,"end":29369.961,"text":"然後就在這個同時間﹖啊﹖可以嗎?其實在這個同時間﹖那個﹖算了 不要講 這講會講太久部長我覺得你要不要先回應一下剛剛柯政委員有講到那你要怎麼去保證你後面怎麼做你有沒有具體的一些說說看如果承諾一年之內達到什麼目標我們就簡列兩百萬"},{"start":29371.192,"end":29372.714,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29380.608,"end":29401.365,"text":"你們剛有說要跟CNN跟半島嘛然後你跟CNN跟半島到底怎麼樣簽約出現在CNN的頻率上有多少在半島的頻率上有多少我們這兩個是國際型的我們當然認為還有絕對的一個啊但是什麼時候簽然後呢我們可以出現的次數有多少我們不是不像我們台灣的訊息可以滾外我說實在的"},{"start":29402.686,"end":29424.975,"text":"現在各大電視台都有一些的國外部他們很會做新聞的頻道你與其把這些我說實在的你這邊的錢你不給公視的這個台灣plus頻道做你委託好不好我講三立好不好我講民視好不好你給他們搞不好一半的錢他們可以幫你達到更大的點位率這也是一個選項啊所以去做很多不一樣的一個國際的傳輸如果你證明這個團隊是沒有辦法的那我們就要問為什麼要花這麼多錢"},{"start":29432.278,"end":29435.019,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29456.847,"end":29457.188,"text":"主席"},{"start":29474.167,"end":29502.727,"text":"總裁Mark Thompson明年2月到亞洲行也會跟我們做進一步的簽約也是跟整個公網集團做新聞簽約這個CNN是已經具體走了兩年那半島是沒有合約但是他是默契就是有需求包括0403的大地震還有其他總統選舉的時候他會要我們的第一手畫面我們都會提供所以有些不只是半島BBC、衛報還有像東南亞其他的電視台都會用不定期的方式跟我們合作"},{"start":29503.823,"end":29517.188,"text":"那就是新聞同業的這個默契以上的線。各位回應一下。說明完了嗎?好,那請委員會員。關鍵應該是講說你為什麼花到那麼多錢啊?你現在跟那個CNN跟半導合是要付費的嗎?"},{"start":29519.226,"end":29521.127,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":29547.824,"end":29567.432,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29570.28,"end":29595.847,"text":"因為我們跟委員報告我們明年度的預算雖然硬體設施大致採購了六、七成其他是要做國際合資合製的製作包括像我們現在跟日本富士電視台跟韓國這個主要的電視台還有像新加坡的這個MediaCorp我們進行大型的合資跟節目製作那個都是內容產製那這種國際合資案就像公共電視過往這個像斯卡羅或者查這種大型的節目跟必須要透過這種內容產製去跨國"},{"start":29598.047,"end":29621.433,"text":"這是文化部給我們的一個期許第二個就是人員本身的這個提升除了這個固定現有的台灣籍的那外國籍我們會不斷的邀請適當的這個優秀的新聞從業人員來加入所以在內容產製上現在是朝向國際合作第三個最後一件事情就是在國際的頻道下架上架跟落地這件事情比方說在美國北美還有在歐洲的streaming"},{"start":29621.493,"end":29651.493,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29653.994,"end":29656.595,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29672.09,"end":29686.237,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29689.747,"end":29707.799,"text":"我知道好但是在我覺得公共電視一直預算從1998年都是一個小公司的概念所以一直做不起來現在難得已經開始有多幾個頻道在集團我希望給他一點機會因為他始終在一個很少預算中做這點我其他講"},{"start":29710.029,"end":29710.389,"text":"主席"},{"start":29730.061,"end":29750.397,"text":"我不太懂,請問一下你說他們已經有很重大的事件,要我們提供畫面,那為什麼還要用經費呢?重大事件我們就一定會有畫面啊?畫面是我們做,但是這個是電視交換,但是我們要人,我們要人去拍畫面"},{"start":29751.838,"end":29766.907,"text":"對,一定,所有的大世界一定會有人去拍阿所以就是我們幫他們Hire記者來做他們外...他們要比電視英文的說實,因為其實國際媒體需要英文的說實因為台灣不是每個電視台有具備做英語能力的報導,所以他就跟我們簽約"},{"start":29773.331,"end":29798.767,"text":"所以就等於是我們在幫他們做英文?沒有沒有,台灣一定要做,所以才會優先助台禁止台灣介紹給世界各國知道,如果我們沒有這樣的英文的訊息在世界上,他們知道我們要向報告司法大廳證明。好,我們過去討論一下。這第一個,然後第二個,你們剛才講到思考了,我想問一下那哪一種內容會變成在外面平台播呢?哪一種內容?然後怎麼決定的?"},{"start":29799.688,"end":29804.674,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29816.448,"end":29841.739,"text":"立法院第1屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文"},{"start":29842.219,"end":29845.42,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29867.585,"end":29889.309,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29889.589,"end":29896.854,"text":"經濟人方案有啦經濟的KPI就是剛剛董事長講的他其實已經換了之前院士的央視他變成KPI根本跟後來的實質"},{"start":29908.942,"end":29910.764,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":29928.482,"end":29932.385,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29955.283,"end":29961.045,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29982.49,"end":29991.295,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30007.823,"end":30010.544,"text":"有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30033.916,"end":30044.443,"text":"第5幕第1節的部分我們討論了很久那剛才在休息的時候大家還有在繼續做溝通我想剛剛的溝通完了以後那是不是大家還有新的意見有沒有達成共識范委員有同意嗎"},{"start":30049.872,"end":30064.445,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":30065.003,"end":30091.114,"text":"算是說對於這次編輯台沒有處理得很好的一個檢討那台灣plus我想大家其實了解的還不夠多像剛剛講到的CNN跟半島電視台這些合作我覺得都是非常好的事情那以三年來講我個人覺得已經很難得了啦那只是這些資訊委員可能知道的比較少所以我們剛剛這邊有幾位委員討論過我們覺得這個部分我們真的很難退讓因為已經"},{"start":30092.495,"end":30114.249,"text":"部長同意動5000萬然後這邊減列200萬真的已經是我們的極限了而且我想我們從來都沒有知道過譬如說當時李永德部長說以韓國的阿里郎英文廣播為例那人家年度預算是多少那半島年度預算是多少我想要低於8億5000萬應該也不太容易吧"},{"start":30115.865,"end":30135.495,"text":"他們是7年才打造成所以我覺得我們可能容易聚焦在他我們認為有問題不夠好的地方可是忘了看他到現在的成果所以我想剛剛我們這邊好多委員都有表達過所以大家剛剛休息的時候是覺得這邊很難退讓也希望朝委可以了解以上好那我們其他的委員羅廷偉委員"},{"start":30146.195,"end":30163.002,"text":"我想我們大家對這個台灣Plus的期許都非常的高那我想如果今天簡列了預算能夠將這一手簡列預算後的相關預算能夠再打出一個好牌能夠逆轉情勢這才是我們想看到的我覺得這才是"},{"start":30163.442,"end":30187.531,"text":"我們看到台灣Plus在遇到問題以後解決問題面對問題那所以我們還是希望剛剛有委員也提到說我這個簡列815我們謝謝各個委員的發言但是我們最後我們也都退讓了我們都願意讓台灣被看到我們都願意來支持台灣Plus但是對於現階段我必須坦白講剛剛我所打開一些新聞量"},{"start":30189.209,"end":30192.99,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30213.855,"end":30235.977,"text":"為人民把關這些辛苦的學案前沒有一個委員是故意要去懲罰或者是政治審查我們都希望台灣plus更好都希望中華民國被看到所以我希望能夠在逆境中成長能夠在逆境中打出一張好牌是我們給予的期望所以我們對於簡略的部分如果大家都有意義那我們是不是先保留"},{"start":30241.372,"end":30260.912,"text":"還有沒有其他的意見陳佩玉委員謝謝主席陳佩玉第一次發言我想要問一下剛剛羅廷偉委員說的保留那我想要知道你現在到底想要的數字是多少因為我想要講的是不管是跟其他國家電視台的合作或者是一個才三年的台灣plus"},{"start":30261.493,"end":30262.895,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30278.391,"end":30280.292,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30297.516,"end":30301.137,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":30325.043,"end":30353.831,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":30354.304,"end":30354.465,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30360.404,"end":30386.197,"text":"台灣Plus 了解說其實委員希望大家做的希望他們做的更好所以用這個來讓台灣Plus知道說大家非常介意那委員也要為預算把關那但是因為委員之前的提案是刪除掉一億這個數字那因為一億其實真的會影響到台灣Plus現在在進行的國際合作計畫那我的我們的建議是說是不是可以讓我們讓台灣Plus的跟國際合作的計畫這個部分作為一個KPI跟委員做說明跟報告因為其實"},{"start":30386.997,"end":30407.748,"text":"在跟國際不管是合資合資跟內容產製上在三年之後現在幾乎才是剛剛進行的時候陳如剛委員提到我們在前三年其實說等於是這個頻道的基礎建設那三年之後我們終於要開始可以累積開始跟其他做連結跟合作的時候如果在這個時候突然踩了煞車其實會讓前面三年的努力都有點"},{"start":30408.248,"end":30408.408,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":30426.186,"end":30456.186,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":30456.786,"end":30456.846,"text":"紅毛愷委員發言"},{"start":30483.389,"end":30501.045,"text":"主席我們所有委員我都對事不對人啦但次長第一個我必須要先講總共台灣Plus是10億左右的一個部分8億左右的部分那即便是剛剛有提到的這個簡列1或是說我自己的提案是簡列5000萬"},{"start":30502.935,"end":30532.072,"text":"那都是差不多占10%左右10%左右然後你跟我們講是說會影響到整個這個簽約的一個部分我覺得這又太言過其實了這很實在話講你有90%可以用那再來第二個部分到現在來講說三年還在摸索哇那我的天啊你剛剛你自己親自你一直講是說三年的時間嗷嗷待哺然後持續在摸索那我想問一下還要摸多久還要用人民的納稅錢摸多久"},{"start":30533.786,"end":30550.522,"text":"所以這是我一直在講是說其實部長新人新政新官上任三把火你也要思考是說有些東西錢花在刀口上到底這個東西再繼續投下去有沒有效而不是說過去有了啊沒有辦法政治意識形態我就只能繼續保留但是我還要摸多久"},{"start":30551.499,"end":30575.325,"text":"App下載就是20%不到五分之一的一百萬是誰講的不是我講的啊是那個時候的部長承諾的啊那個時候部長講說要一百萬所以說才會有一百萬大家一直去強調一百結果到最後只剩二十萬那你現在跟我講說還要再摸索再來點閱率點閱率也不及格那我跟你講即便是全數通過了一年之後你有辦法達到嗎沒辦法嘛不用騙人嘛"},{"start":30580.882,"end":30595.354,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央"},{"start":30610.455,"end":30636.334,"text":"那最後我覺得還是要說明一下喔台灣PLUS到底它的定位是什麼因為我在我們台灣PLUS的官網上面找到About us關於我們講到台灣PLUS是提供台灣英文新聞跟娛樂的首要國際媒體平台我們提供獨立公正的每日新聞還有提供全國最好的美食音樂旅遊節目"},{"start":30637.472,"end":30666.173,"text":"那剛剛我也聽到我們有其他的同仁啦講是說還要再做戲劇還要再做什麼那你剛剛怎麼還要提到什麼節目對不對還有提到你不還有講是說有一些戲劇等等的部分實境節目對所以你從真的包山包海了你懂我意思嗎這就是我們講的說到底那你的頻道的定位在哪裡"},{"start":30668.076,"end":30692.285,"text":"你的About Us你在上面的About Us是提供每日公正客觀的新聞你把自己定義說TimePlus可能是提供英文新聞結合CNN結合這些我都沒有反對你看我在那次質詢的時候其實我有去查這些資料你們確實有在CNN的官網上面友善連結他是確實把TimePlus放在那個官網上的我有查到這個資料所以我不會質疑你們這一點"},{"start":30693.385,"end":30713.815,"text":"但是你們從新聞變成節目變成旅遊變成美食變成當你想要全包的時候其實什麼都做不好所以這也是為什麼我講是說其實部長你新人新政半年了也熟了這個業務了你可以也思考一下是說到底我們未來的這個走向要讓台灣plus走向何處做小而美小而精"},{"start":30717.074,"end":30724.482,"text":"這些真的是我們講苦口婆心我們要人民的納稅錢花在刀口上以上 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言那我們再請葛如君委員其實我想"},{"start":30735.339,"end":30758.868,"text":"不同的政黨當然有一些共識啦但是如果我們聽到一些想法不一致的我相信民主社會應該是可以說出來的我常常坐在陳培育委員旁邊所以我們也算是一起合作但我覺得陳培育委員剛剛說坐了三年應該還要再給一點時間這句話我也是不認同的怎麼說呢我們就照數字來看大家現在某一些人在看的頻道館長"},{"start":30760.819,"end":30779.439,"text":"管長的頻道什麼時候成立你們知道嗎2021年啊現在三年他這個views千萬、十萬、百萬、千萬億四億次瀏覽四億次瀏覽我們不要只是講這種比較有時候政治性的內容我們講博恩"},{"start":30780.23,"end":30785.853,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30805.421,"end":30818.675,"text":"我搜尋一下台灣Plus請問文化部的官員你們知道台灣Plus在YouTube上有幾個頻道嗎?現在有沒有人可以立刻回答我的?你們知道有幾個頻道嗎?有沒有人可以回答我?任何一個人?幾個頻道?"},{"start":30824.138,"end":30843.49,"text":"獎項獎項"},{"start":30844.211,"end":30871.85,"text":"我們人民的納稅錢是這樣在用的嗎?那我們再來看喔不好意思陳培永我剛剛點名你為什麼?因為我點進去看發現台灣Plus的頻道2020年就成立了啦2020年就成立了啦不是什麼三年啦根本就是已經四年了好不好這是YouTube上的數字我唸給您聽除非我的YouTube是假的2020年這就頻道成立嘛我們不是在講這件事嗎?"},{"start":30873.097,"end":30873.558,"text":"2020年12月14日前置預算"},{"start":30894.775,"end":30896.016,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":30907.751,"end":30927.317,"text":"人民的納稅錢10億很多然後呢我們期待的成果不是這樣所以大家在討論這個凍結也是其來有自就是這樣謝謝介紹我覺得我們停止討論這件事情因為我們已經進到預算的這個金額了對不起我想我們手都先放下來我們已經進入到預算誰"},{"start":30935.367,"end":30935.427,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":30965.507,"end":30966.067,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30985.074,"end":30985.234,"text":"羅婷雯委員"},{"start":31017.888,"end":31045.66,"text":"陳佩玉委員因為葛如軍委員一直提醒我點名我所以我認真回應你喔如果身為一個教育文化委員會的委員拿著開台灣人權議題玩笑的博恩作為台灣plus的典範又或者拿著館長做相關像這樣內容的網站youtuber要台灣plus做典範那我沒有辦法接受"},{"start":31047.062,"end":31062.358,"text":"你拿出這個例子舉例我再發言了請尊重喔我不知道身為監督行政機關的立法委員拿出這樣的數字拿出這樣的頻道然後要台灣plus作為一種可能性的想像並且認為"},{"start":31063.539,"end":31085.956,"text":"用點擊率用相關收看數字來看是一個好的參考標準的話那我認為身為教育文化委員會是失格的所以我想要提出我贊成范雲委員跟剛剛柯志恩委員說請他們做相關檢討報告跟下一次再處理但是我還是要提出因為剛剛葛如軍委員一直點名我我完全不認為您剛剛所舉例的這些頻道是好的頻道還有當它承載著一個國家對外"},{"start":31090.78,"end":31099.369,"text":"互動的一個很重要的媒介的時候那他所能夠比你的對象絕對不是像博恩或者是館長像這樣子的YouTube網站以上謝謝"},{"start":31121.758,"end":31122.198,"text":"休息三分鐘"},{"start":31147.207,"end":31154.648,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31172.056,"end":31172.897,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":31192.739,"end":31207.703,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31214.065,"end":31239.248,"text":"主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央"},{"start":31240.189,"end":31246.911,"text":"事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31265.443,"end":31280.432,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31286.976,"end":31291.899,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31302.726,"end":31310.268,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31331.114,"end":31337.682,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31346.111,"end":31353.375,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31375.798,"end":31376.738,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":31394.164,"end":31416.051,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31418.992,"end":31430.336,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31447.402,"end":31449.885,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":31463.394,"end":31482.512,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31486.536,"end":31493.899,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31513.488,"end":31519.994,"text":"主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31534.189,"end":31541.155,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":31560.432,"end":31563.374,"text":"市長不要保留,保留幹嘛?剛剛不是講三千嗎?"},{"start":31584.744,"end":31587.025,"text":"這是最壞的報告之前?這是最壞的報告之前?"},{"start":31603.79,"end":31613.515,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31623.279,"end":31623.82,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":31641.614,"end":31645.237,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31656.747,"end":31660.388,"text":"現在已經是信者不信對,其實講沒有用不要做這樣的話,他還在講話"},{"start":31682.976,"end":31686.319,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":31700.752,"end":31719.719,"text":"節目我會少做節目我會砸七砸八我只會少做我只有大的合資像是國企、韓國、新加坡我能做但是小的三百五百我少做我們就替這一支社交媒體討論對我會少做我會少調人力上"},{"start":31723.841,"end":31731.45,"text":"可能要公佈法規,耗費太大資金,除此之外,就要把法規寬鬆掉,不然…有時候一直要來做,有時候可能掛台灣就補工,再做法規"},{"start":31744.805,"end":31748.507,"text":"主管國立文化機構審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":31773.326,"end":31774.046,"text":"這個事實我沒講道理。"},{"start":31789.681,"end":31791.902,"text":"第一節處理完再休息還是要追到"},{"start":31813.166,"end":31838.933,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":31839.398,"end":31840.759,"text":"預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":31874.141,"end":31893.887,"text":"我們剛剛大家共同的決議說一下好了剛剛討論部長也同意啦我想部長也知道說台灣Plus這邊是要有進進的空間所以我們針對這個第五幕第一節的部分是不是台灣Plus就減列兩千萬那第五幕第一節這邊就凍結兩億元那書面報告時的凍值"},{"start":31902.332,"end":31907.554,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":31922.0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下午公布具有8案、3案成立、5案不成立共7人受到行政處分本部於第11屆第1會期多層大院協助對本部重要業務之推展有甚大注意在此前表謝神未來推動政策上期大院鼎益之處已應"},{"start":2584.028,"end":2587.17,"text":"已應本部業務需要。謝謝以上。"},{"start":2601.324,"end":2624.546,"text":"現在我們開始詢答做以下宣告本委員會詢答時間8分鐘,列席委員4分鐘,10點半截止法院登記委員如果有書面執行請於上位前提出,預期不受理暫定10點半左右休息10分鐘,延遲上11點半處理臨時提案,11點截止手案"},{"start":2628.462,"end":2631.504,"text":"好,現在我們請登記第一位委員陳昭之發言。好,有請邱部長。好,部長請。好,部長早。部長,上週屢次召開的這個霸凌案調查記者會,你有什麼感想?我們"},{"start":2657.304,"end":2661.643,"text":"當然有嚴肅的心情來面對所有相關的事件那我們也要求"},{"start":2662.338,"end":2686.671,"text":"一定一切要秉公處理,依法辦理,然後我們也成立了調查的...部長,我是問的是你的感想,你在想說你們會有一些原則。上週的記者會我只有8個字給部長,關關相互,避重就輕。勞動部第一次的調查報告,何部長還說是呕心瀝血的報告,引發中怒。"},{"start":2687.671,"end":2711.162,"text":"然後部長你也不遑多讓說這是用心高規格的調查那我們就來看一下有多用心有多高規格啊好部長你們衛福部總共調查了8個案子上週的記者會就丟出一張A4的新聞稿請問這張新聞稿是等於調查報告嗎是嗎部長請你回答是不是等於調查報告應該是調查的結論"},{"start":2716.049,"end":2730.941,"text":"那不是調查報告那為什麼不公開完整的調查報告呢?勞動部無論是第一次的調查或第二次重啟調查的記者會他都當下立即把調查報告傳上網公開給社會大眾看啊威福部為什麼不敢公開呢?請回答因為我們"},{"start":2737.315,"end":2746.978,"text":"我們這次的調查是非常深度跟廣度也尊重外部專家的一個非常專業的一個來評判為什麼不能公開那因為他其實我們在訪談當中牽涉到非常多的同仁"},{"start":2760.521,"end":2777.916,"text":"那這些同仁我們必須要做自閉化該蓋黑的就塗黑嘛這個你要報查報告還是要出來你現在是不是可以立刻請業務單位把調查報告上網做得到嗎勞動部都做到了你做不到嗎我現在給你時間馬上交代我要上網去看報告可以嗎請調查小組的召集人李次長"},{"start":2782.6,"end":2801.733,"text":"為什麼我要報告就好 我不要你怎麼做的 我要調查報告主席也非常感謝委員的這個關心 那我跟委員做一個簡單報告 因為其實我們這個部分確實有96位同仁他受到訪談 那麼在訪談的過程裡面這些有講到就不用了 基本上他們都基本上還是希望不具名 因為這裡面會稱到就是說不具名沒問題啊 不具名沒問題啊"},{"start":2804.815,"end":2812.317,"text":"可是這裡面因為有一些同仁他們還是希望就是說可能可能有一些那你就是還沒有做好嘛那個報告還不確實嘛我們其實都已經做好那麼這裡面我們還是要考量同仁他們的這個隱私還有你可以把identity蓋好那其實我們也透過這次的這一個詳細的審查"},{"start":2823.4,"end":2825.522,"text":"市長請回市長請回我等一下執行委員回去我就要看啊我要看調查報告啊你乾脆就處理啊勞動部做得到你做不到啊"},{"start":2847.54,"end":2848.3,"text":"主席是李任德次長"},{"start":2871.277,"end":2887.082,"text":"不是啊,有衛福部官員跟我說啊,因為劉益娟主秘是防護小組的主席,本次是因為迴避啊,暫時由次長代替,但是劉益娟現在還是主秘啊,那之後她是不是可以看調閱報告?她可不可以知道是約談了哪些人?這些被約談的人講了什麼話?部長請告訴我,她可不可以看得到?"},{"start":2891.155,"end":2894.66,"text":"我想我們這次的調查報告是人事處長能不能看得到這些內容告訴我就好這些調查報告目前都是密切目前?但是他回到不會不會不會"},{"start":2907.596,"end":2922.102,"text":"因為安全防護小組現在的召集人自從自從主秘我們原來的主秘是那個召集人可是他列入列案之後就是我們立即換成我們的政府組長"},{"start":2925.584,"end":2951.542,"text":"不會不會因為相關的關係人都不會看到報告你要告訴我說這個報告我不知道多久他暫時看不到我只理解你他暫時看不到部長你知道部內的員工現在很害怕嘛怕被劉奕娟秋後算帳你覺得在這種氛圍之下衛福部有辦法做出符合事實的調查嗎只要劉奕娟一天在主命的位子上就沒有人敢說真話今天劉奕娟有來嗎"},{"start":2953.186,"end":2967.366,"text":"沒有啊,因為你把他免監的那個社保司啊他是完成順利的升官啊他免監社保司啊他除掉的工作負荷啊但是他還是可以監督社保司啊你讓他成功的升官還在主命的位置上啊"},{"start":2968.581,"end":2990.432,"text":"讓他繼續不受監督,他不用來這裡了啊。為什麼不當一人之下、萬人之下,繼續作威作福?社保司的工作是非常重要,而且牽涉到整個我們賢敏健保相關法案的一個法案是一個非常重要的一個工作。沒有人才了嗎?不要騙我啦,人才很多啦,不差他一個。上次子群被我叫上來還裝無辜,那他跟錄音檔裡面叫人家去自殺。"},{"start":2994.534,"end":2996.235,"text":"喔 那個語氣是真是天壤之別阿 不然你有聽到沒有?你有聽到沒有?"},{"start":2996.235,"end":2999.556,"text":"那錄音帶你有聽到沒有?部長這種人你確定要繼續保他官位嗎?你確定要繼續保他官位嗎?阿不是已經多少週了嗎?你現在還在跟我講 原來你還沒有做完你就把調查報告送出來阿和部長之前也很嘴硬阿 結果下午就辭職了"},{"start":3022.304,"end":3024.106,"text":"你如果繼續這個態度,你是不是也準備撐不久了呢?什麼脈絡?這叫複鎖?事實上是當時在整個有關於調查,有關於整個這個公文的這一個部分呢,其實主任是"},{"start":3039.258,"end":3056.024,"text":"您就請留在台上我想這個其實是有一個有一個具體的脈絡其實主要是指導那個同仁的公文的一個撰寫的一個過程那我想態度確實這樣用語確實不對所以我們也在這部分我們也對他有請你留在台上你竟然要一直上門就留在台上竟然說"},{"start":3057.024,"end":3074.045,"text":"劉玉娟是以不當的比喻要求同仁去自我找出問題的嚴重性才不會被他殺部長我覺得整個衛福部的高層完全沒有從勞動部的教訓悲劇得到教訓叫下屬去自殺表示誠意這個就比喻失當喔他講多少次叫人家去親生欸"},{"start":3075.663,"end":3078.765,"text":"你叫屬下去親身欸!阿你覺得比喻喔?比喻不當喔?嘿阿你知不知道欸!這根本就是衛福部版的利益良善版阿!"},{"start":3091.834,"end":3103.581,"text":"你一直在聽他說話嗎?報告委員,他的意思就是說你要對外要公開,要把細節講得清楚他的意思就是說你要先自己先處理,你如果自己沒有先處理的話那你等到外界來的話那這樣可能就不妥所以他的整個脈絡是這樣啦所以我會說這個比喻真的是真的不當所以我們也覺得就是說這個部分應該可以"},{"start":3117.159,"end":3129.006,"text":"部長,像劉玉娟這種高壓領導、言語霸凌,你覺得還好補救?像北分署一樣無姓同仁一樣做出無法挽救的選擇嗎?你真的要等鬧出人命嗎?好,我現在唸一個訊息給你聽。委員好,這封信是在沉痛的心情下寫的。"},{"start":3133.789,"end":3158.75,"text":"感謝委員舉發劉市長的二舉當看到委員的咨詢時知道終於有人會關注辛苦、受苦的同仁就在前幾天一位同仁輾轉告訴我臺北業務組一位濟姓同仁在109年6月在家自殺身亡他本身是虔誠的基督徒一個基督徒為何會自殺當然如委員之前所述SOP的結論就是濟姓員工因憂鬱症而自殺死亡"},{"start":3160.084,"end":3181.821,"text":"與主管管教無關然而該科是由五六位同仁要求做心理輔導這件事的處理是由劉司長以及他當時的心腹賴信科長一起處理至於如何處理事實如何外人無法得知也無法進一步查證畢竟當時的劉組長現在已經高升衛福部的主命當時的賴信科長也高升本署的"},{"start":3183.039,"end":3205.075,"text":"屬本部的副組長請問關關相互下誰敢說這位同仁表達是因為他看不下去一直都留著這位寄信同仁的副文這還是都還是曾經人寫的希望將來有一天能還這位同仁清白今天的調查結果一定不會有以上的案情說明果然是沒有這樣就證明總統及行政院長卓院長的指示根本不會落實還受這個能夠還給這個受冤者清白好我們看這個"},{"start":3214.799,"end":3232.916,"text":"這就是大衛親身的建保署台北業務組同仁的副文這是四年前的事當時建保署台北業務組的組長就是劉玉娟我想你可能不清楚劉玉娟在建保署台北業務組的時候裡面的員工有多痛苦根本是度日如年我再念一段陳情文給你聽"},{"start":3234.512,"end":3256.078,"text":"劉司長於109年3月接掌健保署臺北業務組組長這是臺北業務組同仁夢夜的開始一、有位同仁儘管現在已經退休他說他到現在只要聽到劉司長的一切消息手仍然會顫抖他只想要忘記這段過去拒絕談論這一切但他希望有人能夠勇敢的站出來舉發二、有兩位科長因受不了劉司長的"},{"start":3257.778,"end":3283.497,"text":"長官領導風格括號自動降調為非主管另外有一位專委三位科長被逼退休由於目前仍在署內的資訊同仁署本部資訊長官只能盡量用會議的名義讓他回署本部逃離工作現場這是我最近所聽聞的一切一切聽聞當然也是要以署理依據總統及行政院長的指示一一要調查清楚及釐清"},{"start":3283.917,"end":3307.111,"text":"但是仍然令人失望有人跟我說這種問卷調查結果會有很大的失真不是所有同仁都知道只給新進人員所以受傷的很多很多人都不知道有這份問卷調查甚至含杯離職或退休人都不知道有這份問卷所以在職的同仁及離職的同仁都認為問卷調查內容還只限於工作量的合理與否故意避開擴權濫權"},{"start":3309.713,"end":3316.497,"text":"所以填了也沒有效用因為他們是同一伙的關關相互對於做限制性的問卷調查敢怒不敢言這就是衛福部同仁的心聲希望你們聽進去我們絕對依規定並公處理"},{"start":3328.104,"end":3353.404,"text":"至於這一件事件剛剛您說的事件我們也了解得相當清楚請李市長說明一下報告委員其實這個事件我們都有遺憾但是據我們了解這個狀況事實上同仁十多年前就已經有接受相關的一個就已經接受治療那其實這個有關的整個事件發生跟調查情況市政委員都可以查證那其實老實說發生這個情況我們真的都不樂見但是我要強調這個事實上就整個時序上市長市長"},{"start":3356.486,"end":3377.063,"text":"然後如果說我們也不樂見有心人士來刻意操作這種不幸的事件來影射老實說對於這個家長還有對於同仁事實上都是一個整個惡毒的一個惡毒的傷害如果委員如果有了解我們都可以把相關的就醫記錄跟報告來跟委員報告謝謝不停最後一次一屆大樓的性騷案你有沒有注意到這個新聞性騷案"},{"start":3379.025,"end":3388.639,"text":"根據新聞報導某位國內知名的婦產科全衛西教授性騷擾6名住院研究醫師而且已經經過臺大醫院性評會教評會調查確認博定你覺得已經經過確認該如何處置這位醫師博定你說"},{"start":3395.714,"end":3417.142,"text":"我想醫師如果涉及性騷擾性侵害或者是性別除了應該由雇主以性騷擾防治法性別就性別性品三法的規定來辦理或者由司法機關追來部長我要跟你講這位西教授不甘心唷堂鼠利用"},{"start":3418.562,"end":3422.944,"text":"業務機會犯罪行為經判刑確定或執行業務違反醫學倫理得依醫師法第25條規定由醫師工會或主管機關依附懲戒我想現在我沒看到懲戒啦這個徐教授不甘心還要找這個同為"},{"start":3434.868,"end":3443.07,"text":"國內婦產科大佬的總統府資政求救．這個資政還因此打電話給臺大校長陳文章關說甚至這個西教授現在已經轉到這個資政在臺中的任職這樣的安排OK嗎?你剛剛說從准理跟專業的角度我要告訴你不定婦產科醫師被認為性騷確認婦產科醫師的工作就是會牽涉接觸到女性最隱密的檢查"},{"start":3462.288,"end":3482.802,"text":"該醫院還怎麼說?什麼教會叫護理人員一旁監視?內診的時候換別的醫師做?簡直是亂來啊!不中!這是那幾位受害的醫師、女醫師她跟我們部內的某個立法委討論之後她寫了很多建議報告我念兩點給你聽信騷民醫離職台大後現職醫院隨便說內診"},{"start":3488.846,"end":3494.553,"text":"改別人接手他看診然後等內責改別人醫師接手但實際上衍生恐掛名跟實際執行醫師不一致的全責釐清問題當醫療糾紛出現的時候怎麼辦?好!很重要的不管是加碼人員條例第22條跟明文規定曾有性侵害、性騷擾、性剝削或內在兒童性行為不得在幼兒園服務或是營養師"},{"start":3509.089,"end":3535.207,"text":"第二條,營養師法第6條規定,懲犯訴清嚴毒條例、麻醉藥品管理條例或危害毒品危害條例等,並經判決認定不能擔任營養師。啊,那,沒中。啊,一個副常科醫師,已經被好多名醫師這樣子確認,性騷確認。我要告訴你們這些醫師喔,他不只是被摸到腦臀部,甚至還被摸進內褲,只能向院方申請保護令,禁止那位醫師靠近。"},{"start":3536.067,"end":3539.879,"text":"而且信騷的醫師們甚至要到專科醫師考完"},{"start":3541.055,"end":3568.568,"text":"才敢出來檢舉為什麼嗎因為醫療場域是一個非常封閉權力高度不對等這個大佬可能會影響他們專科醫師考試的結果所以你想想看一個女性副場科專科醫師接受四年高強度的去年之後要一邊擔心被他前輩性騷被摸大腿摸臀部甚至摸進內褲裡還要去看身心科醫師走不出被性騷的這個陰影站出來檢舉都在擔心我有一天會不會被秋後算帳保定"},{"start":3572.022,"end":3597.295,"text":"議員．議員．議員．議員．議員．議員．議員．"},{"start":3597.375,"end":3597.395,"text":"謝謝委員．謝謝"},{"start":3625.111,"end":3626.772,"text":"謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長接下來我們請林業群委員質詢主席有請邱部長委員長"},{"start":3649.929,"end":3666.196,"text":"部長早今天想跟你討論就是一直以來我在民間本來就很關心兒童安全那個實施方案所以想問部長兒少安全實施方案過去都多久修正一次"},{"start":3674.849,"end":3685.998,"text":"報告委員前一次應該是在106年的時候修正 這一次是在113年我先問的是說多久要修正一次 按照你們的進度"},{"start":3690.92,"end":3714.547,"text":"這個部分其實並沒有特別的一定規就是像一般的行政計畫或者什麼並沒有一定修正的期程部長現在少子女化越來越嚴重而稍一提不應該被邊緣化過去我一而再再而三的就呼籲請邱部長要好好的加把勁去處理這個那107年我們的事故協調會就說藉其應該滾動修正指標"},{"start":3720.647,"end":3744.694,"text":"的確上一次的版本是105年那我們在查事故上的這個記錄裡面你們有提到說要去滾動而且是每三年要做滾動修正那時候107年就講每三年可是很遺憾的現在113年了我看起來還是只有未完成的答案沒有辦法看到那所以部長你有掌握進度嗎"},{"start":3748.069,"end":3756.457,"text":"因為剛剛代理署長也講說你們沒有可是明明會議記錄當中就有寫說每三年要滾動式修正"},{"start":3758.351,"end":3785.884,"text":"謝謝委員指教我們馬上來瞭解他的現在的一個進度然後趕快依照現在的狀況是因為監察院111年113年都有提醒說因為他們注意到這個問題所以這兩年都有要求說衛福部是不是要盡速的去滾動檢討並且也提到說現在方案討論病入事故傷害協調會的做法跟頻率跟目前兒少權法協定的"},{"start":3787.344,"end":3811.494,"text":"法定的一個協調、研究審議、諮詢跟督導跟考核的功能都沒有所以難以有效的去下降兒少事故所以部長衛福部難道自己都不知道嗎?對這件事情視而不見嗎?我們非常重視兒少的一個安全我想在理事的質詢當中我們也謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":3812.634,"end":3830.783,"text":"也都一直在改善這個部分因為過去96年訂定這個兒童安全實施方案過去在社會室的時候內政部都每一年都有在檢討就後來合併到事故傷害協調防治委員會之後"},{"start":3831.69,"end":3847.806,"text":"反而就停擺了105年停擺到現在所以也希望部長能夠針對這一塊能夠盡數了解所以再來問部長說是不是曉得我們的方案指標的嚴定標準跟原則是什麼"},{"start":3851.008,"end":3875.118,"text":"我想兒少安全很重要的一個它的最常發生的就是意外事故所以這個部分應該最重要是聚焦在兒少的意外事故我想我們過去也參加過很多兒童健康協會相關的一個我相信你來自醫療界應該知道這個東西很重要都以這個為主要的一個認為這是最重要要去處理的問題"},{"start":3877.562,"end":3906.662,"text":"對,所以你的原則就在這邊齁那邊而且他當時就有提醒說應該聚焦在兒少意外事故齁而且應該要排除我們的各部會已經有做的事情不是把各部會有做的事情又繼續放進來因為要避免跌床駕屋還有減少過程指標應該著重在成果指標齁所以目標值應該要有前瞻性跟務實可行啦齁可是可以看到可是你們的草案"},{"start":3907.862,"end":3932.329,"text":"之前就講過啦可是為什麼最後現在送出來草案版本的那個考核目標設定真的是毫無誠意為什麼這麼講呢我覺得剛剛部長講說你很重視可是為什麼這次113你送出來的草案版本我仔細看首先有的目標居然已經達成了就像我們的提升我們的偏鄉地區民眾就醫就學的便利性的盤點偏鄉地區的民眾"},{"start":3934.389,"end":3943.375,"text":"交通需求以每年增加交通運輸的涵蓋率1%為目標這你們寫出來啊112年目標為91、113年目標為92可是現在就已經94了我不知道說那明年要訂什麼呢?謝謝委員指教。委員的寶貴意見我想我們這是一個草案"},{"start":3954.463,"end":3955.424,"text":"所以我想我們都可以來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":3975.458,"end":3993.576,"text":"跟委員報告目前現在所設定的指標總的來說就是根據以往大概下降的趨勢我們希望能夠有更精進去做一定的目標的設定那目前整個案子的進度是報到行政院之後行政院有要求我們就"},{"start":3994.116,"end":4007.762,"text":"理面的一部分的事項再做一些檢視我們都會相關檢討完之後再送到行政院去那委員所提示的有關指標的部分我們會再做一些檢視如果有可能我們會跟相關的部分再做一些協調"},{"start":4011.323,"end":4030.009,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4030.309,"end":4050.263,"text":"具體可操作甚至有前瞻性的而不是沒有前瞻性的目標請你們要去處理所以請衛福部在三個月內重新檢視研商跟修訂這個額上實施方案然後並儘速公布還有檢討每半年這過去我們就一直提醒"},{"start":4052.025,"end":4063.331,"text":"因為法裡面沒有要求沒有要求說你們要多久開一次可是我們希望能夠每三個月去檢討可是你們當時一直還是很堅持說要每半年才來召開"},{"start":4064.452,"end":4089.557,"text":"這樣的事故傷害協調會議討論的做法我覺得這要思考為什麼這麼講因為今天兒少死亡1到14歲是第一名事故傷害是第一名那應該要重視少子化不是只有要催生還要拒絕死亡這件事情要做到我覺得麻煩部長要把這件事情放在心上如果你一直在做催生可是沒有拒絕死亡的話依然我們的孩子呢一樣"},{"start":4091.038,"end":4111.644,"text":"即便我們身贏過日韓可是如果沒有拒絕死亡的話我們死亡數字上是超過日韓的再來就是空氣增這件事情我想不知道應該我不知道有沒有收到這樣的一個訊息因為最近有一款這樣很多脆友或者是這樣都開始引為恐慌因為為什麼"},{"start":4112.484,"end":4130.283,"text":"因為竟然事實上一個玩具還有一個針頭還有一個矽膠娃娃透過這個空氣針打就會讓這個娃娃膨脹起來之後為了戳那個泡泡呢大家就覺得很抒壓可是我們辦公室收到這樣子的問題之後我們也看到經濟部趕快要求"},{"start":4130.683,"end":4146.111,"text":"我們的電商平臺下架不得販售這個很好可是我們辦公室搜尋針筒的確實沒有找到相關的產品所以想問部長畫面中的空氣針是不是就是針筒也請問一下這針筒的定義是什麼"},{"start":4148.965,"end":4160.499,"text":"看起來的確像針筒所以應該是沒有監測核准其實都是不能使用"},{"start":4161.303,"end":4190.555,"text":"所以這種針頭很鋒利嘛若不是刺入人體的話有可能會導致蜂窩性組織炎那甚至空氣針的空氣栓塞等致命的狀況所以我們就去搜尋各類關鍵字出現了不同的空氣針、精油針、工業用針、寵物針出現各種不同的針頭所以想問衛福部這到底是不是針頭是合法的醫材嗎需不需要下架"},{"start":4192.265,"end":4217.514,"text":"請署長回答一下報告委員因為這些他的徵筒的字眼因為他們沒有申請醫材申請所以我們不認為他是醫材如果這樣子我們會回去請我們的那個醫莊組進行這個網路的搜尋然後希望他們能下架因為他們沒有以醫、醫材的方式來申請所以我們上面是沒有記錄的是可是我們就是去問了你們的醫莊組"},{"start":4219.693,"end":4219.713,"text":"議員．述"},{"start":4235.175,"end":4262.068,"text":"說你答案是不太一樣的但這一玩具真的就是真正的真桶一樣事實上是有危險性的所以想問反共部長業務單位這樣回答如果藥品跟糖漿業者只要說明上是說糖果宣稱是糖果那衛福部就不會做藥品來管理嗎我們大概會以食品來管理那為什麼會這個會說宣稱玩具就不是以醫材來做管理"},{"start":4263.414,"end":4289.874,"text":"報告委員我們這個因為他在那個醫財管理辦法上面他必須要在他宣稱他是醫財的時候他會申請醫財的認可那時候我們才會進行可是這針筒有沒有危險性是報告委員是有對所以針對空氣針的販售問題請衛福部立即會同的關務署跟國貿署跟速發部去清查我們的網"},{"start":4290.811,"end":4313.985,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4314.338,"end":4328.95,"text":"那個有傷害到人體的質疑我想這都是要處理的這都是要嚴格來處理的好再麻煩我們的衛福部好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝葉群委員謝謝部長下一位質詢的委員是蘇清泉委員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議員蘇清泉議"},{"start":4349.473,"end":4357.107,"text":"謝謝主席。我請部長。好。有請邱部長。國衛院長。國衛院長。議事司司長。議事司司長。口腔司司長。口腔司司長。"},{"start":4365.001,"end":4384.996,"text":"委員長辛苦了辛苦了那個上次逃動部這個霸凌事件也是我排一個檢討會報告然後就在這裡從早上一直砲轟到下午那到中午的時候行政院那邊就回復了"},{"start":4385.737,"end":4398.942,"text":"然後下午的時候4點半行政院長就召開記者會然後我們的何部長就辭職了那我覺得很惋惜啦吳吳部這一次的"},{"start":4400.957,"end":4421.222,"text":"這個事件的檢討我這裡要跟部長講一下就是早上我還收到你們衛務部員工的陳情救救我們衛務部的員工他說這一次的這個檢討報告是提高陳情到次長"},{"start":4422.482,"end":4443.384,"text":"所以他們還好,但是一般都是主秘在主持所以現在這個主秘一定先到減息到sustention開讓他沒做,他如果再回去當主秘那這些報告全部他都看到了嗎那這些人不是完蛋了嗎"},{"start":4445.202,"end":4463.135,"text":"好,謝謝召委的隨行。我想我們在一開始調查的過程當中都,我想那個理事長應該很清楚,指導這個整個就是說他負責召集嘛,他應該很清楚,只要是當我們在調查的時候所有的相關人都請假。"},{"start":4464.276,"end":4485.201,"text":"就是不行不影響到那個整個調查所以相關的人不會去看到他在這個報告裡面所以這個部分請大家放心絕對我們非常的保護到這個我們所訪談的所有的同仁而且絕對"},{"start":4486.721,"end":4496.711,"text":"做最最嚴密的一個保護所以這個這個案子將來即使誰呢當主秘他可以往前去review去拿出來去拿出來看會不會這樣"},{"start":4500.632,"end":4521.009,"text":"我想請處長,人事處長他會根據目前的那個規定調查報告不僅是密件而且是限約關係人都是不能看要有職權才能看的那結束就封起來了是不是這樣"},{"start":4523.411,"end":4531.275,"text":"我是覺得要勿妄勿縱啦,盲盲就這個我們那個年代當醫生喔,部長你也看不到啦,我們在開房,如果這樣不剛好,對主治醫師咖就要打來啊"},{"start":4541.259,"end":4557.076,"text":"他來後,他穿白色的衣服,穿了五色的衣服。那時候覺得很悲哀,但是那個年代就是這樣過來的。然後,三天持一日班,白天上班跟刀,晚上還要看急診,那個時候根本沒有急診專科醫師。"},{"start":4558.317,"end":4560.138,"text":"現在的主管或許以前是也曾經被霸凌過"},{"start":4585.945,"end":4594.611,"text":"那現在不要變成你是受害者將來變成加害者可能有什麼心態我不知道啦 部長你要看什麼"},{"start":4596.997,"end":4613.616,"text":"我想...我以前會被丟過病歷,是不敢用馬甲談啦。你外科系統的科研比較好,我內科系統的基本上是丟病歷啦。但是我從來沒有丟過年輕醫師的病歷。"},{"start":4618.277,"end":4633.952,"text":"我們的因為時代不一樣啦齁整個環境不一樣以及大家玩笑的方式不一樣啦齁陳昭素委員對你的這個這篇報告齁非常的不滿意啦齁那我想要講退回去"},{"start":4634.853,"end":4650.957,"text":"有點對你們難堪但是我想再回去好好的再再再回顧再review一下好不好我就不用那麼不好聽的字眼那這裡面有一些我看表現也不錯的啊像你們國會組這個張主任每次委員要愛衣服給他叫他都會來要穿什麼東西都會穿這樣"},{"start":4657.439,"end":4674.871,"text":"我們也想檢舉霸凌所以有的事就是要勿往勿縱我還是講這句話勿往勿縱一定要查詢我們一定屏風處理勿往勿縱對這個是很重要的因為我時間不多我要接續那個國會議員的"},{"start":4677.011,"end":4701.392,"text":"我們台灣的新生兒死亡率是比日本高將近一倍嘛然後呢我們國會院裡面有一個兒童健康什麼什麼什麼委員會喔你那委員會在幹嘛的是在做政策制定還是有到基層的practice到醫院這個層級因為五家兒童醫院的"},{"start":4702.941,"end":4713.968,"text":"院長也罷齁,他們來找我說他們希望成立可以為我們這邊成立一個兒童醫學健康研究中心然後他們來"},{"start":4716.132,"end":4734.38,"text":"整個台灣的資料然後做研究新的治療方法然後新的癌症治療方法等等那就依託在其中的一家醫院然後全國的資料都在這邊我第一句話就問說那你跟國會院這個機構有沒有疊床駕駛不然你就看誰"},{"start":4743.462,"end":4764.832,"text":"我想國會院是我們國家重要的健康智庫那它據我了解在過去成立相關的一個組織的時候其實在推動很多兒童的一個重要的議題的論壇那這個也都做得在政策上相關的好在醫院裡面當然就是"},{"start":4765.632,"end":4768.694,"text":"我現在是說國會院這個單位是不是在做政策制定而已啊?政策的原意跟制定"},{"start":4788.837,"end":4799.021,"text":"謝謝委員我們事實上是從102年開始因為當初很多立委鼓勵我們成立這個所謂的國家的兒童醫學研究中心"},{"start":4800.529,"end":4822.662,"text":"這幾年事實上是用醫發基金的這個經費雖然每年經費都在遞減但事實上我們維持每年都在遞減這幾年因為醫事師強力推動這個所謂的優化兒童醫療照護那個裡面就有很多的策略來結合不同的醫學中心、兒童醫院跟這個幼童的這個專責的這個醫師那他們現在怎麼會有這個要求呢?"},{"start":4828.434,"end":4854.257,"text":"會想說在臺大兒童醫院或者是哪裡放這個研究的中心?我想那個意思是臺大醫院熬課出生的。這邊的話我補充一下因為這是不同層級的研究。政策研究的部分其實我們是透過國會院然後推動兒童、幼兒童醫療網計畫得到的data其實沒有個資的情形現在其實是由國會院來提供"},{"start":4854.677,"end":4873.642,"text":"可是每個醫院對於每個disease其實他都希望有更深度的研究知道從預防端開始怎麼做所以針對每一個不同的面向的地方的話我只能說以國衛院而言他是從公共衛生的角度從疾病預防治療的角度那是每個醫院希望能夠做的事"},{"start":4874.988,"end":4879.733,"text":"我的想法就很單純,就是,孩子越生越少,變動關一年,今年是2023年過星期的八千五百多人,生小孩生了四千兩百,生沒一半啦。"},{"start":4890.362,"end":4890.502,"text":"這是好事啦!"},{"start":4917.583,"end":4940.361,"text":"那我請部長你責成我們國會議員和議事室跟這些兒童議員研究一下,看到底他們是要愛什麼,他們是要如何配合,要不要重複開,我們就沒有意思,這樣好不好?好,沒問題,這個非常重要,而且資源一定要放在各自能夠發揮,共同來領濟一個我們台灣最好的"},{"start":4941.201,"end":4968.695,"text":"兒童研究跟一個品質的體育對啦 這個很重要啦每一個都要好好的栽培每一個都是很重要來 那院長你請回那再來就是我們麻醉出問題啦診所出問題啦那醫生到底有沒有受訓那我瞭解起來不真的假的我等一下請市長回答齁他說那個診所做雷射然後打propofol"},{"start":4969.608,"end":4989.134,"text":"那這個牛奶針,我前幾天做大腸經胃鏡,我也煮那個,我也煮剖腹腹,但是我是病醫做,所以很擔心,那真的會呼吸會變壞,血壓會下降,所以那種針很好用,但是會出問題的。"},{"start":4990.615,"end":5006.289,"text":"我看你們的規範八項裡面沒有在石崇良當市長的時候制定的嘛那八項什麼銷鼓啦什麼的要麻醉在場那這個我的了解是那個執行醫師自己打打完自己再做然後這裡就輸於照顧"},{"start":5009.212,"end":5022.565,"text":"那個在醫院保證救得回來,那在診所,這樣被拒絕了這個是很糟糕的事情這個診所裡面醫美診所裡面醫師是現在準備要怎麼做這樣是沒有辦法接受的台灣有800家醫美診所真的有規範的才41家,是不是這樣"},{"start":5033.464,"end":5046.833,"text":"不是真的有規範是所有要執行就是我們這邊特管辦法的他都必須經過衛生局的審核然後第三方的認證經由醫策會的認證才是委員在講的所以是說在選擇要"},{"start":5048.654,"end":5073.559,"text":"合法而且品質優良的診所的部分的話我們其實是建議民眾第一個其實就優選醫政會通過認證的第二件事情是在執行推動的過程當中如果是說麻醉這件事情只能夠由麻醉科醫師做的話其實就會有人手不足的問題可是實際上面很多的情況下面都會運用到麻醉所以怎麼提升這個我們講的安全的部分的話"},{"start":5074.179,"end":5074.319,"text":"獲得訓練及提供訓練資訊"},{"start":5090.783,"end":5116.794,"text":"我不曉得麻醉專科醫師跟麻醉專科婦理師他們的前線跟他們的分際是在哪裡我搞不清楚像這種應該你要麻醉你就在醫院做就好了為什麼醫師到外面到處兼差這樣這樣一定會到最後一定是無人嘛無人就是這樣他先自己付自己出自己付自己弄都要出事情"},{"start":5118.359,"end":5146.673,"text":"所以這個要管理,不然大家不信心扁軍送、食品也不夠、什麼都不夠、問你做什麼都不夠我看連插管都不要插管所以這個很危險啦口腔師也是一樣,我要問你的你跟醫師是怎麼配合?牙科醫師現在是在聯合診所就可以實習嗎?還是PGY才在聯合診所?"},{"start":5151.728,"end":5156.155,"text":"牙科醫師實習一定是教學醫院。PGY的話的確有部分是在診所。"},{"start":5157.375,"end":5184.578,"text":"因為牙醫師本身一定要在急診受訓是 董事長你是急診的一定要在急診受訓過一定要在麻酔科受訓過這樣才有基本的救人的基本能力我 我已經接過好多牙醫師麻藥一打 因為麻藥裡面有麻検啊 寫到検裡面有加一些保釋命加一些 加一比一千的"},{"start":5185.419,"end":5186.38,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5205.014,"end":5219.021,"text":"在牙科診所還得了這個是一個漏洞啊所以實習沒有只有PGY有對只有PGY有PGY應該也要在教學醫院了在聯合診所上次就出事了高雄不是出事了嗎所以這個"},{"start":5221.789,"end":5224.773,"text":"謝謝委員我想謝謝委員的指教我想不管是醫療院所的品質安全"},{"start":5237.409,"end":5253.78,"text":"可以說是從朝委員您過去在擔任醫師公會理事長那個時候就一直呼籲大家一直在開這個會所以我們非常的重視那該如果在麻醉這個部分會比較需要再精進我們會找相關的醫學會"},{"start":5254.901,"end":5272.596,"text":"跟相關的專科醫學會、牙醫團體我們共同來研議看怎麼樣讓民眾真的到醫療院手是很安心而且是很安全的這是我們一定要努力追求的最後我再回過頭來行政院說要讓"},{"start":5274.11,"end":5276.152,"text":"雖然是匿名但是只要舉出他的"},{"start":5301.732,"end":5302.272,"text":"被檢舉者要勿忘勿重"},{"start":5326.195,"end":5328.958,"text":"剪輯的人我們要保護。就這麼簡單的道理。好,謝謝。好,謝謝趙偉。好,謝謝蘇委員。謝謝柯部長。"},{"start":5355.431,"end":5362.555,"text":"好,接下來我們請劉建國委員主席。謝謝召委,有請部長。"},{"start":5379.144,"end":5405.453,"text":"部長,我先請教一下,那個霸凌案的報告都有經過你的審視之後才對外說明嗎?有根本調查小組完成了以後,有送給我看,然後再公告。是嗎?所以就是有經過你的審視之後才對外說明嗎?對外報告嘛,對不對?是。好,OK。那我等一下再回過頭來請教你。是。"},{"start":5406.499,"end":5422.987,"text":"我在這個12月初的時候有諮詢過部長就是說我還是一直特別針對員工協助方案這個EAP的整個衛福部的整個要再重新加強的部分嘛那部長也有承諾過我"},{"start":5423.956,"end":5450.546,"text":"而且也特別特別強調說一定會加強是但我不曉得怎麼加強因為我們現在衛務部傳出一件又一件的這個霸凌事件那衛務部也本身又也喊出說要這個啟動嚴固聯聯工協助方案的EAP的實施甚至於這場安心計畫心理急救機制然後協助這個受事件影響的同仁來紓解這樣的一個壓力是這都是衛務部講的嘛是"},{"start":5451.306,"end":5460.321,"text":"那部長可以簡單答問我,現在所提供的員工協助方案是怎麼樣?我想員工協助方案推動計畫應該有一百"},{"start":5463.736,"end":5490.847,"text":"大概有這些年來都已經應該有10年以上的一個一個在推動的計畫它是而且是滾動式的一個修正那當然上次委員有執行到我們的計畫編列的預算是比較少這個可能因為是前面多年來一直滾動的我也尊重原來過去多年來編的一個預算但是如果有必要當然是一定要去"},{"start":5492.108,"end":5502.942,"text":"要去提高啦齁那這一次因為我們有這裏可能在調查的這段期間可能會有一些大家心理同等們心理需要"},{"start":5504.505,"end":5514.608,"text":"有一個諮商的管道所以即使推出兩個為期兩週的職場安心計畫有16個個人有16個完成諮商那團體有兩個場次這樣的一個諮商那我們如果有必要我們都會再繼續來安排來促進這個計畫那個你等一下"},{"start":5533.773,"end":5552.307,"text":"我講一下齁,給部長做參考,這個員工協助方案,勞動部一年給員工有五次啊,外務部一年給員工有幾次?簡單就好?三次嘛,你們是維持三次嘛齁?至少三次啊齁,那你們最多幾次?我們來這邊答覆"},{"start":5557.115,"end":5581.85,"text":"跟那個委員報告就是他有去他本身自己去尋求諮商的時候至少三次那諮商的團體他會給我們報告如果認為還需要深入的話我們就會根據評估報告再予以加強謝謝好那勞動部也是五次衛生部只有三次你們覺得這樣是夠的"},{"start":5588.24,"end":5605.756,"text":"不好意思,我們是講至少三次,然後會根據評估報告繼續再予以加強。我現在齁,我給部長,你先不要回去吧,你要趕快過去,你的時間,對保定也沒有準備。不好意思啦齁,因為我問你,你臨時會請我一張一張啦,這樣比較適合你趕快過去。"},{"start":5609.741,"end":5634.771,"text":"我寬佩你們會務部的網站目前只有國家中醫藥研究所明確在網站上有說明了你自己看就你想的嘛所謂的員工協助方案一年三次嘛其他的其他的我有找到有相關資訊是在106年叫做什麼員工協助方案數位教材微電影其他都沒有你們有沒有公告啊"},{"start":5635.814,"end":5645.798,"text":"到現在沒有公告啊我們諸選了之後還沒有公告啊你們說要加強要提高整個啟動員工學習方案的相關的這項計畫這個網站也沒有看到啊所以就是互不有啟動方式"},{"start":5654.554,"end":5678.321,"text":"不好意思委員齁其實我們每一次每年度的滾動計畫我們都會用公函通知各個單位那這個晚上如果沒有更新這是我們需要進行檢討的地方我們回去會予以感謝人事數的可能相關的數位的預算應該就不用多給了吧齁因為從106到現在106年1月26到現在嘛"},{"start":5683.728,"end":5708.548,"text":"然後部長已經有明示說要提高整個這個EAP的相關的一些企劃應該在這個網站裡必須要去公告才對嘛我們馬上來...馬上...這個齁 老東部已經弄得亂七八糟但是在心理上這一塊衛福部是專業的這是你的專業嘛齁那你們應該主管的相關資源應該都很到位怎麼結果弄起來比一個中醫藥研究所還..."},{"start":5710.267,"end":5728.05,"text":"好像只有一個宗教研究所比較認真其他好像都沒有這說不過去那上禮拜勞動部部長對本委員會做出這樣承諾給部長做參考雖然一百億私人度預算已經編列了因為他是兩個禮拜的部長"},{"start":5729.508,"end":5745.5,"text":"部長你是什麼時候就任的,大家很清楚嘛,114年的預算就是你的預算了啦,就是你的政策要去執行了嘛。那黃部長還講說,雖然114年的預算已經編列了,但他會去找錢,把勞動部整體的員工協助方案從180萬增加到235.9萬,然後同時115年度他會繼續增加預算。"},{"start":5751.684,"end":5772.534,"text":"相對目前勞動部一年雖然五次的諮商但接下來只要經過評估需要也會繼續增加這個次數那我再跟你分享我在兩年前在追司法院的時候他是在2022年被我檢討過一次的時候他原本是一年八次他現在已經提高到12次我們還要再三次還要四情況才要再增加"},{"start":5779.147,"end":5780.728,"text":"衛福部呢?"},{"start":5780.728,"end":5783.591,"text":"咱是衛福部呢?"},{"start":5783.591,"end":5785.513,"text":"用腳一擺,咱叫做衛福部呢?"},{"start":5787.727,"end":5809.973,"text":"我想我們一定來檢討、精進,如果有需要我們在預算上面,我們會由各個管道來爭取足夠的預算來做這件很重要的事情。還有一個很重要的事情,勞動部已經承諾要將承攬人力納入員工協助方案的服務對象,你們有嗎?你們的經濟有把這個納入嗎?準備納入嗎?還是到現在沒有要納入?"},{"start":5813.218,"end":5828.923,"text":"我們現在的員工協助方案就是我們在部裡面服務的各類人員、承攬人員是有包括?是有包括。好,那就很好。那就很好。那我就請教一下衛務部首屬的單位包含像健保署人均57塊的員工協助方案要怎麼解決?怎麼包含?"},{"start":5836.164,"end":5855.571,"text":"五十七塊還不包含成人人員不是,我們是每個機關都有個別的員工先我當然知道,我怎麼會不知道我上次才把你們各個機關的員工先方案的相關預算都流列出來了啊那你說我有包含啊那我就請教你,我現在請教健保署這個機關它現在是人均五十七塊啊你說有包含啊,怎麼包含啊請說這個你要管道才對嘛你要掌握嘛,對不對"},{"start":5866.67,"end":5893.442,"text":"因為是這樣子,每個機關的預算是...是我自己去問每個機關那我們會責成我們的所屬機關要加強這部分的預...責了嗎?對,沒錯你責了嗎?責成嘛,對不對?責了嗎?責成出去了嗎?公文出去了嗎?什麼時候發了啊?然後要求他們車輛人員一定要納入在這裡面,什麼你所講的啊?有了嗎?公文出去了嗎?"},{"start":5895.829,"end":5918.818,"text":"我們回去馬上檢討,如果沒有,還沒有完成的話,馬上來完成。所以部長你在這裡聲錄的跟A咖做的應該是,應該是很大的落差嘛。我現在問你聽你就知道,我現在其實是要問你聽的嘛。情報稅額多一勺啊,還不包括承攬人員喔。那剛剛他答覆我是會把承攬人員納入嘛。那你說有折承嘛。你跟我下去了沒有?沒有?如何?要不要下去?"},{"start":5924.076,"end":5943.486,"text":"我們回去馬上處理黃部長已經答應我說114年度這個預算當然不是在他的任內編列但是他會想辦法去把錢找出來我希望部長也可以比較辦理啦可以吧沒問題然後目前衛福部到底有多少承攬人員請他回答好不好所屬機關"},{"start":5946.892,"end":5964.555,"text":"你們的所屬機關你掌握的你答覆委員會答覆清楚一點好不好你要納入嘛那你要掌握嘛不好意思喔那個所屬的這個機關都是他們的勞務那個可能我會後再把相關資料你回答我這樣現在回答我這樣你們要獻部長的不義啊你要納入你又不曉得所屬機關多少人你又要折騰所屬機關"},{"start":5976.752,"end":5983.774,"text":"你現在公園還不發出去然後你們說要提精進計畫你們的預算有沒有被審查勒你們的霸凌事件是最多的勒你們還用這種心態在面對社會大眾我具體要求一周內保安部長把相關EAP的精進計畫提到委員會"},{"start":6005.882,"end":6013.268,"text":"那委員會來審視,可以吧?可以好,謝謝沒問題我剛剛講霸凌案你請回吧我在11月21執行過部長與中心黨提出要於前一天20號和部長在委員會的狀況為警那請部長在霸凌案要調查清楚"},{"start":6032.332,"end":6061.69,"text":"那上週衛福部把這個調查報告都已經調出來的齁我想這個我不希望用再次震驚這四個字啦齁但是三案成立然後其他不成立還有另三案然後不成立你又記過長照司長記過一次社保司長申借兩次社工司的司長申借一次這個叫什麼意思捨地無影三百兩"},{"start":6066.027,"end":6087.447,"text":"所以我才請教說部長整個調查報告之後你有看過嗎?你有經過審視的時候才對外做宣布嗎?他的霸凌既然不成立為什麼還要記過?議員我現在先說兩個部分第一個我們這個所謂成立與否...李士林那天開記者會的時候你自己講到都結巴喔"},{"start":6088.308,"end":6101.798,"text":"你回答我你就小心一點報告委員我們這個裡面絕對都是要尊重我們這個裡面有那個委員外部委員他們的這個專業的那個成立所以整個這個過程全部都是由委員他們根據整個專業的部分來進行這個專業的那個調查"},{"start":6104.62,"end":6127.352,"text":"至於剛剛委員你剛剛有提到就是說為什麼他們那個不成立為什麼還要記過其實最主要事實上他們的行政有關於整個行政管理的那個部分行政管理要記過嘛對不對對沒錯所以說確實是有那個事實在記者會你講的嘛我對照你講的話好不好你聽聽看看常常是住市長在衛福部健康招時間要求人員要做特定運動衛福部認為並不合適"},{"start":6129.953,"end":6155.531,"text":"人員想如何運用健康操時間做何種運動應有自我選擇的權利要求深蹲及管理不當行流程討論後與行政懲處即一小過沒有錯吧?沒錯!市長要求人員在健康操做特定運動這不構成霸凌卻涉及管理不當小過一支對吧?沒錯!你要確定喔?沒錯!這樣小過你會記不完喔?"},{"start":6159.386,"end":6169.11,"text":"午休時間,職員如果持續開會,賠命開會,算不算管理不當?健康操時間,如果還繼續連在座位上趕報告,算不算管理不當?要不要記小過?你想管理不當啊。你用管理不當來形容啊。那我就請教你啊。我現在就挑戰你啊。"},{"start":6184.605,"end":6209.609,"text":"報告委員齁,其實不是只有社保司長嘛,社工司司長也是這樣嘛,對不對社工司司長他是因為就是說,他們司裡面有一個我現在跟你強調說,他的霸凌案不成立對,他有管理不當所以這個三個司長有被記過一次申請兩次,申請一次嘛,對不對叫管理不當嘛所以你的管理不當的認定界定是怎麼樣"},{"start":6210.563,"end":6239.37,"text":"你的範疇到什麼程度?我剛剛比喻的狀況是不是屬於管理不當?要不要記過?所屬機關的所長都要小心了你們會經常管理不當喔其實像對於什麼叫霸凌其實老實說人事總處他們有一個那你已經界定他們沒有霸凌了你已經界定他們沒有霸凌了你現在是界定在他的管理不當裡面對他們提出記過跟申介嘛我現在在跟你討論管理不當的認知跟範圍請你要說明清楚"},{"start":6241.872,"end":6247.96,"text":"這邊還有CDC、還有FDA、還有國建署、還有健保署。作為署長,你們的管理要當喔!你不當就要比照這樣辦理,記過一次、深切幾次喔!"},{"start":6260.182,"end":6288.076,"text":"報告委員,我們兩個重點。第一個,其實對於什麼叫霸凌,其實真的是有一個定義。這個部分我們完全都是尊重專家。因為老實說,我們自己主席是我們也不宜太過的一個干涉。這是第一個重點。第二個重點現在目前就是您剛剛所說的,其實三個樣態裡面,三個市長裡面其實有管理不當,可是另外有一些是督導不周的一個情況。"},{"start":6289.482,"end":6291.827,"text":"三個樣態我講一段勞動部重啓調查中的職場霸凌事判斷重點也有三個樣態也不想跟你做參考第一"},{"start":6300.578,"end":6302.46,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6327.498,"end":6350.155,"text":"記者會上你自己一直強調嘛齁這是一個同仁在健康招時間很和樂的一個活動師長沒有強迫任何人但轉頭你跟他記了一個小過我覺得你沒把問題複雜的把它搞得很複雜你不覺得齁你如果可以跟社會大眾說明清楚那你就去說明清楚"},{"start":6351.223,"end":6357.712,"text":"我還是希望部長你深思啊這事情你們評估清楚真的要評估清楚這事還有什麼後續你們思考清楚那都已經做給你們看了嘛就這個範圍嘛"},{"start":6369.008,"end":6389.987,"text":"報告委員我還是必須要說明一下我給你說明啊我都有時間給你說明對於所謂的但是你說明要讓人家聽得進去啊對於霸凌他大概有人事總處他有三個重要定義第一個就是必須是在職場環境裡面上對下運用權勢關係以延遲或者非延遲這是第一個重點"},{"start":6390.387,"end":6415.588,"text":"另外第二個呢他是必須要造成客觀上的一個所謂的工作上的敵意環境那第三個後果就是說對於當事人有產生他的整個作為心理貶抑人格上面等等這些那重要其實重要事實上是什麼叫持續性這是第一個判斷標準另外第二個是有沒有造成所謂的貶抑其實老實講啦你常常事實上這個我講下去我是覺得這也是為了"},{"start":6418.07,"end":6437.869,"text":"在整個管理行為上真的很不當我必須來講但是現在目前就是說其實我們這個部分就整個定義上來說真的都是尊重整個外部委員他們的這個獨立調查所以我想這個部分我也跟委員報告其實後續其實有關定義的部分我覺得"},{"start":6438.53,"end":6451.102,"text":"我們的社會科聯有不符合社會通念的部分,這個部分是不是我們一定會跟人種這邊對於那個整個標準的部分,大家我們民眾,其實說實話我也跟委員一樣,我也是覺得說這樣"},{"start":6454.545,"end":6474.087,"text":"按照這個定義是要說什麼呢?這對我們民眾真的是要有一個交代,要不然是不是後續?但是我們這個部分,我們因為整個程序,我們沒辦法受限於……市長,市長,我之前給你更多時間去講了,但是朝委一直給我按鈴"},{"start":6475.488,"end":6503.958,"text":"我必須要講你這邊只有多一個持續貶抑啦對啦坦白講啦那那那那員工協助方案做貨就比較不會有持續的發生這是真的這是正本期我知道所以我一直在講這個邏輯問題第二件事情我對這些被記過的手掌我沒有任何意見但是你們這樣的處理沒有霸凌記過因為管理不當我覺得這樣的這會給人家感覺你們到底在"},{"start":6505.499,"end":6520.798,"text":"在做什麼啦?這個我還請部長跟次長還有各位衛生部的官員要去對主管級的官員要去特別去審視一下何謂管理不當何謂管理不當而後的管理不當就比較辦理"},{"start":6523.069,"end":6530.897,"text":"最後,市長你先請,我請教國監署長。不好意思,我簡單說明一下好不好。你要看蔣議員時間要不要給你,他剛才是超過10倍分啦,沒關係。我超過,現在超過10萬鐘而已,還有倍分鐘而已。市長你對這次的霸凌案有什麼看法?"},{"start":6544.38,"end":6570.268,"text":"簡單就好一分經驗三十分、三十六、三十四我想保護員工絕對是我們最高的原則那如何營造讓整個同仁能夠在安全在友善在沒有壓力的情況下就是沒有額外其他的壓力的情況下來安全工作我想針對這一次的霸凌案我覺得說我們都必須要慎切檢討"},{"start":6571.836,"end":6595.34,"text":"國建署依據衛生組織的身體活動和久坐行為指南推動每天運動30分鐘,可分兩次15分鐘,所以推出15分鐘上班族健康操。也因此未必有健康操的時間。但是為什麼長照市的市長在健康操讓職員在那邊伏地挺身?老挖署、北溫署則叫職員在走廊跑步。"},{"start":6597.805,"end":6620.152,"text":"執掌上花個15分鐘運動你們要注意啦齁但是這個安全保護的意思應該是更需要嘛對不對然後現在這個健康的風氣還蠻盛行有的人下班之後他會到健身房去運動嘛你們要求他做這些事情他只要專注的把工作完成"},{"start":6620.99,"end":6632.557,"text":"不是就一件事,一件負責任的到位的事情嗎?那如果你覺得你就必須要這麼做,那你國健署去把指引定出來啊。我稍微說明一下齁,在長洲市的健康操時間"},{"start":6640.566,"end":6665.422,"text":"有一次有呈現說他做福利挺身,那個是在兩年前的時候因為有一個有一個新進來的時候,他有在練身體啦阿另外一個替代他的校園的阿不然你們兩個扁話嘛就這麼一次啦不是說每一次都在做福利挺身那其他的話我據我了解應該是市長帶著大家做一些可能"},{"start":6666.463,"end":6683.675,"text":"也許大家認得也不舒服或者是怎麼樣剛剛次長有提過的一些健康潮好啦即便常常所講的我們大家相信沒有問題嘛但是你看老化署、北溫署他就在走廊去跑步嘛所以國健署就把資金訂出來我是要求這樣嘛可以嗎"},{"start":6685.468,"end":6708.826,"text":"謝謝我沒有那個健康超的這個示範的影帶請大家跟著一起做所以都沒有用啦你把指引訂出來啦可以吧這個健康超的影帶很多年前就有我在十幾年前在臺大醫院十點到三點都要停十幾分鐘然後有錄影帶幫醫生就這樣做那個是啊是啊可以給他指引沒有啦可以給他指引訂出來可以吧"},{"start":6714.349,"end":6716.209,"text":"主席各位委員我也想請邱部長"},{"start":6743.14,"end":6757.22,"text":"邱部長我剛聽了這麼多委員質詢我有一種濃濃的即視感大概幾個禮拜以前何佩珊就是跟你類似一樣的態度跟說法說這份報告很用心管理不當"},{"start":6758.542,"end":6762.007,"text":"剛剛有講到說健康操的時間你有看到投訴的內容嗎投訴的內容是請他深蹲報告欸你覺得如果賴清德總統叫你深蹲跟他報告你還是覺得賴清德總統管理不當你想看看是不是賴清德總統管理不當"},{"start":6777.054,"end":6795.561,"text":"他是深蹲要報告欸這個請理事長來我先跟大家說明一個那個委員會在報告那個深蹲他那個不是報告他那個就是說大家各科大家就是邊運動然後大家做一些邊運動邊開會邊深蹲邊開會大家就講一些就講一些"},{"start":6803.26,"end":6827.826,"text":"其實最主要是大家輪流然後在這裡面也有一些除了身體上面留另外一方面大家也可以分享一些我們的一些其他的事情而且我跟委員報告這真的不是強迫的部長你自己有看過你們那個六頁的報告嗎但是其實內容只有四頁有一頁還是空白頁你自己有看過嗎有的"},{"start":6829.446,"end":6842.01,"text":"我說部長那部長你講的出來是哪些人被懲處嗎?被懲處的原因是什麼?因為被懲處的人啊現在大家都不認識根本就不是我們質詢問你的人都不是"},{"start":6845.728,"end":6870.629,"text":"都在懲罰小的、大的全部都放掉了然後你們現在說管理不當記過然後又說深蹲一起開會報告事情不叫霸凌那我問你啊你們這個15分鐘的運動健康操時間是不是共識決?你可以請同仁出來說這個是我們這個部門一起願意每天要一起做這個是共識決嗎?"},{"start":6872.579,"end":6894.09,"text":"我想兩個重點第一個就是您剛剛說的其實我們這些我想我們的原則一定是公開透明而且物中但是也物往所以整個這個程序裡面我完全都是尊重外部委員他的一個整個獨立的判斷一個專業的判斷其實這個是一個所以他到最後結果是怎麼樣老實說我們真的不能干涉"},{"start":6895.43,"end":6911.635,"text":"但是我們要尊重專業的一個整個他的這個判斷的一個最後結果我聽懂了部長現在都是外部委員寫的所以我們要尊重外部委員但是部長你也有你的政治責任所以部長你願意為這個報告背書嗎還是你不願意因為是外部委員寫的"},{"start":6915.95,"end":6934.381,"text":"我們完全尊重我們完全尊重這個委員所以你們不願意為這份報告背書不是 報告委員其實齁其實最重要其實真的我們要尊重這個整個專業上面的一些的一些的評斷還有我也跟委員報告我們整個過程裡面齁其實除了我們有有四位的外部委員是獨立的"},{"start":6934.861,"end":6942.064,"text":"另外第二個呢就是我們在這過程裡面我們有訪談了將近96位的同仁有有報告上報寫所以整個量化的其實還有我們這裡面透過整個所謂量化跟質化的這個的這個交叉交叉比對這個其實事實上就等於這個法庭上面就是整個調查的一個類似的政策"},{"start":6952.447,"end":6974.012,"text":"為什麼會有人為什麼會有這麼多人來跟立法委員陳情就是因為你現在講的事情完全不符合人民心中的標準跟邏輯嗎你為什麼不將心比心如果賴清德總統跟你說你們必須要先親身啊你等人家來他殺那都一把火啦你要先親身才可以表示你的誠意啊"},{"start":6975.051,"end":7001.232,"text":"你覺得這樣不算職場霸凌嗎?其實很多事情這個都要還原當時的這一個只有講一次要長期是這個意思嗎?當然還有另外一個您剛剛說那個輕生的這些那個是整個在業務在整個公文指導上面我承認這個我也同意這個用詞是真的是他可是管理社工的人他是應該要是全國最重視我們心理健康的人"},{"start":7002.333,"end":7018.288,"text":"然後他的自殺他殺可以這麼清楚這麼簡單的就說出口所以真的我們認為他比喻不大所以我們認為就是說但是他還在擔任他原來的位置不是嗎我們現在把他調離就是那個社保資金上的那這是他本來的位置他本來就是主密了他本來就是好嗎"},{"start":7021.84,"end":7047.592,"text":"然後你們就是報告委員他是本來是社保司司長所以你的意思是說哇你們剛楊楊、薩薩、劉建國委員列出來這些人都是中階的幹部被離職所以霸凌最嚴重的是中階幹部最上面的都是管理不當你覺得大家大家可以接受你們的新聞稿嗎各位報告委員其實齁真的我覺得整個這個過程裡面齁我覺得真的要要務重"},{"start":7049.346,"end":7064.094,"text":"但是呢我覺得也不能夠也勿往啦因為這個就是我們整個處理我想那個邱信仁委員剛剛也說嘛就是要勿縱勿往而且過程一定公開透明那整個這個程序"},{"start":7065.855,"end":7082.33,"text":"沒關係我們簡單的回答一下現在你們衛福部下面有做這個健康操的部門有哪些?然後哪些是共識出來的?哪些是司長規定的?很簡單嗎?大家只想知道到底這個健康操休憩時間是強迫的還是共識的還是可參加可不參加?"},{"start":7086.598,"end":7094.114,"text":"報告委員我覺得這個我也昨天我也前天在跟回應記者的時候我也說我個人認為這個是非常不當的那個行為"},{"start":7094.878,"end":7115.026,"text":"那你現在取消了嗎?你取消所有衛福部規定要做健康操的單位了嗎?健康操這個是我們的一個這個就是誠如剛剛部長說的這個我們是一個開放的一個時間也鼓勵但是做什麼形式這是個人那個個人的那個自由行為主管沒有任何權利去要求啦那可以不用參加嗎?你會宣布說可以不用參加嗎?從現在開始那我們要看到你發布的這個發布給全部衛福部同仁的這個這個文書"},{"start":7125.465,"end":7145.591,"text":"我覺得這個本來就是自由的啊就是一個時間你那個時間到時候你就放那個韻律我覺得你講這個東西很不符合我們一般人民的標準我問你如果你們在開行政院院會賴清德總統、行政院長說現在健康上的時間大家自由選擇要不要參加"},{"start":7147.526,"end":7168.747,"text":"你覺得有人敢不跳嗎?報告委員,我必須再一次強調,那個只是那個時間在那邊至於您願不願意,我們當然還是基本上鼓勵嘛是,剛剛劉建國委員已經講得很清楚了霸凌的形式有哪些,其中也有包括心理的壓力那你一個時間定在那邊,主管都已經在做了"},{"start":7169.741,"end":7176.744,"text":"你覺得不做的人不會有壓力嗎?所以你們的報告其實意思是說中階主管確有霸凌的事實但是管理中階主管的這批人只是因為管理不當所以被記小過這是你們報告的意思不是嗎?"},{"start":7199.449,"end":7220.778,"text":"報告委員,我們所有的,我們說有一份證據說一份話,有一份證據我們就辦一份案。同樣的,我們現在目前的整個這個懲處,其實也是,我再一次強調,就是我們的外部的獨立委員,他們在經過相關的量化資料以及相關的訪談之外﹖好,那你的報告完全也沒寫出﹖"},{"start":7221.938,"end":7250.656,"text":"這個中階主管他們霸凌屬實後來被調職的原因都沒有寫出來這跟所有我們接到的投書的內容都完全不一樣雖然我們已經感受到我們接到投書的內容已經就是霸凌的事實了可是你的報告都沒有寫喔我們現在都不知道喔就是你拿出來祭旗的這批人到底做了什麼事情我們完全不知道我們這個沒有真的完全沒有所謂祭旗不祭旗的事情但是我剛剛說就是說必須Evidence based"},{"start":7250.996,"end":7253.999,"text":"這是教育部105年公告的學校訂定教師輔導與管理學生辦法注意事項明定體罰的樣態以及範圍但是呢您說福利挺身不算是體罰霸凌而是PK我想請教一下這個教育部明定出來體罰洪荒荒裡面"},{"start":7277.045,"end":7301.474,"text":"福利挺身是不是不用算在那裡以後老師都可以叫學生福利挺身PK報告委員我再還原一下正如剛剛部長剛剛有說的只有一次而已22月那一次剛好就有一個新進同仁進來他在那邊說他有做健身那剛好他說那有另外一位替代役他也說他會做福利挺身那大家就起哄嘛"},{"start":7302.876,"end":7307.603,"text":"所以在整個過程影片過程裡面各位那個委員也可以看到所以你覺得大家如果是啟訪和樂融融為什麼這個影片還會被傳出來"},{"start":7314.039,"end":7334.955,"text":"報告委員我覺得他影片傳出來這個我們不好揣測他的這個動機是怎麼樣但是我們這個過程裡面我們的瞭解這個就是剛剛陳茹剛剛說的就是整個同仁他們在那邊一個所謂大家互相所以未來你們衛福部可以訂一個PK表PK是OK的"},{"start":7335.976,"end":7362.901,"text":"發言委員因為我們剛剛已經說了我們不會我們會提供這一個健康操時間但是用什麼形式這基本上完全尊重同仁所以這個基本上就不涉及要不要定那些我覺得還是要就是部長也常常跟我們講我們將心我們站在這個同仁立場我們就是要給同仁一個最好的一個整個有尊嚴的而且最好的職場環境我也跟委員報告剛剛劉建國委員我也要說其實"},{"start":7363.781,"end":7390.8,"text":"部長也說我們現在結束之後我們這個事情到一個段落之後我們會再開始啟動對於整個主管以上對於什麼叫霸凌行為這是第一了還有管理的藝術還有溝通的藝術我想這個都很重要特別是老實說剛剛邱慶偉委員他也說他過去要做那個PGY這個我覺得整個這個過程裡面我們也要跟年輕世代也要共同學習我覺得最重要是要還給我們同仁不是我們要給同仁一個最好的我是具體建議啦因為很多人"},{"start":7392.061,"end":7419.195,"text":"問到現在大家都對這個報告很不能認同所以你要再生出一個報告的可能性非常的高因為你的報告是違反一般有在上班的人的基本的知識我相信你們如果在院會你們如果跟賴清德總統開會被這樣子對待應該也不是管理不當而就是扎扎實實的霸凌下一題對不起如此我想問部長"},{"start":7421.155,"end":7448.723,"text":"部長我看到這個新聞我是非常難過因為我這幾天其實有一些人嘗試聯繫我我聽完這些故事以後我覺得蠻痛苦的因為同樣身為女生很多醫生希望透過我來發聲說他們看到全國的醫師看到全國的醫師的最大長官叫做衛福部部長管理醫事法的是你沒錯吧醫療法的主管機關也是你沒錯吧"},{"start":7450.528,"end":7453.769,"text":"我聽完這些受害者的故事真的有人聯絡我了還有一些不是在新聞裡面的人"},{"start":7478.092,"end":7480.358,"text":"請問我們全國醫師最高指導單位 部長"},{"start":7482.574,"end":7510.326,"text":"不用做什麼嗎?有沒有什麼具體可以為他們做的?好,我們就是依規定在辦理嘛。如果醫師有涉及到相關的這些性騷擾相關事件,僱主就會依要性憑三法來規定。這個台大也有在進行。那所以好像已經離職了嘛。那如果有司法,或者是他看他的情節嘛,如果有司法機關來追溯他的刑事責任,"},{"start":7511.346,"end":7526.094,"text":"那如果是利用業務機會犯罪行為且經判刑確定沒關係部長部長你剛講的這個議事法裡面其實有一個不管是公會或者是主管機關都可以做出行動那請問衛福部到底算不算主管機關嗎?你算不算主管機關?還是你覺得你要等公會?主管機關是先由當地的衛生局來做來移送那你會去關心嗎?"},{"start":7541.264,"end":7568.109,"text":"這件事情其實是各個縣市政府其實都有那個信憑的委員會會做調查所以是說其實衛福部這邊我要講的是醫事管理後我們是後段調查的結果出來之後我們其實是會做處理後去的處理其實就是以醫事法剛剛部長在講的就是說調查出來之後所以你們醫事法的主管機關你先交給工會還有地方的衛生機關"},{"start":7569.409,"end":7591.001,"text":"沒有,前面有一個各縣市政府的調查委員會後面在發動的時候才是由剛剛部長講的那部長你有去關心這件事走到哪裡了嗎?畢竟說不定裡面有些人也是你認識的,受害者我們目前只有初步的了解就是臺大醫院的部分其實是臺灣大學這邊在做調查以上"},{"start":7594.414,"end":7612.837,"text":"因為你是這個性殺老防治法的主責機關我會想問說保護司是不是應該主動介入來關心在整個調查過程有沒有降時有沒有疏失這些有沒有被接住因為他們是長期是長達3、4年以上的"},{"start":7615.25,"end":7631.941,"text":"你們要不要做?你們要不要做這件事?要不要主動?按照信訊法防治法他是採取所謂的告示也就是被害人要申訴那他申訴之後就會按照申訴的流程去調查調查屬實之後會到審議會去做行政裁處"},{"start":7635.956,"end":7650.642,"text":"部長我還是希望因為真的蠻多人期待你可以做一些事情至少免除新的受害者很多人很擔心啊也有的病人說啊原來我以前也曾經經歷過這個醫生都有性騷寫在網路上寫在dcard那但是他現在卻還在執行業務這個是不是你也應該要去了解呢是不是應該是你的責任呢"},{"start":7660.936,"end":7666.391,"text":"你不是管全國醫師的人嗎那你也應該要保護這群受害的女醫師啊"},{"start":7669.253,"end":7691.801,"text":"我想站在過去長期擔任比較屬於醫界的幹部我們有責任來關心所有醫師的工作的場所是不是安全然後很愉快部長你真的要大魄大力很多人期待你可以做一點事情因為這些事情在這個醫界長期"},{"start":7694.602,"end":7698.683,"text":"有倫理關係、不對等關係、權勢關係這些事可能不只在這個地方有發生好,我想我們會委由我會來拜託那個議事公會全聯會大家也會期待衛福部有一個具體的聲明"},{"start":7715.862,"end":7728.108,"text":"我想我們把事情理得更清楚以後一定會有守立場我們會再繼續追你好沒問題謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢主席各位大家早是不是請我們邱部長"},{"start":7751.423,"end":7761.454,"text":"部長早你當過立委嗎那你現在擔任部長所以你應該清楚立法權跟行政權的差異吧"},{"start":7764.897,"end":7780.851,"text":"你知道公共工程會在9月下旬的時候預告修正採購評選委員會組織準則第4條之一它主要就針對考量各級民意機關、民意代表"},{"start":7781.891,"end":7796.337,"text":"擔任機關採購案的評選委員有造成行政權和立法權兩者混淆、衝突的可能所以進行修法。那部長你知道這個事情嗎?你知道這件事嗎?我沒有了解到那麼詳細,但是這樣的方向是對的。這件事這麼大條,你有沒有看過?方向是對的,你認為有沒有必要?"},{"start":7813.08,"end":7813.561,"text":"你覺得他們這樣修正有沒有必要?不知道。"},{"start":7825.943,"end":7850.612,"text":"民意代表不能夠去擔任啊應該是這樣子啊因為我們從小公民課本就教學生啊三權分立或是五權分立嘛立法權跟行政權本身就有各自的權責啊憲法第63條你知道我們當立委的立法院有議決、法律案、預算案、戒嚴案、大赦案、宣戰、構合、條約案及國家其他重要事項之權嘛"},{"start":7852.253,"end":7862.426,"text":"我們立法院就是在這樣的一個基礎上和範圍上來監督行政權所以民意代表同時擔任行政機關各類審議的委員當然不合理啊 對不對"},{"start":7868.612,"end":7881.004,"text":"所以工程會才會預告修正這個草案的原因也在這裡然後社會輿論也討論過了大家都覺得不合理啊那就你了解你覺得不合理嗎衛福部有沒有類似這樣的狀況"},{"start":7883.772,"end":7892.782,"text":"有沒有?你就你組織啦,有沒有?對啊,你的評選委員啊,各類的行政組織的委員會的運作,你行政部門的各類的組織的各委員會的運作有沒有這種狀況,你知不知道?"},{"start":7905.695,"end":7931.937,"text":"有沒有主席委員好衛福部目前我們所知這個事情是沒有那所屬機關到目前為止沒有報過來過你說所屬機關怎樣沒有報上來過衛福部都沒有所屬機關你不知道意思是這樣子嘛來你不知道我給你報備來啦我們PowerPoint的給他看一下啦你看有人就自動上去了"},{"start":7933.206,"end":7937.972,"text":"有人自動上台了我都還沒有請署長上台他自己就上台了"},{"start":7940.634,"end":7951.237,"text":"屬長自己知道啦!健保屬下的相關會議全民健康保險藥物共同擬定會議這個會議這麼重要?重要喔!他在決定什麼藥物要不要納入健保給付這個會議就是標準的行政權有行政決策權"},{"start":7965.55,"end":7980.759,"text":"這樣的一個會議裡面這個共理會議簡稱共理會議現在現在仍然有專家委員號稱專家委員是現職的民意代表23、24年兩年的名單"},{"start":7986.085,"end":7995.631,"text":"結果呢到立法院今年2月報到以後他也沒有辭職以自己黨的最高道德標準來看他決定要絕對要辭職他沒有辭啦但沒有辭的狀況裡面"},{"start":8001.774,"end":8008.118,"text":"開了七次會議請假三次他自己請假三次參與四次我並不想針對他但是單純就事論事我在這裡提醒衛福部你們在各個機關下的審議會議設置要點或辦法當中要不要需不需要把民意代表是不是擔任相關委員會的委員要不要進行盤點"},{"start":8031.734,"end":8041.241,"text":"你們又不要把所有的辦法規定回去改一改避免立法權跟行政權混亂混淆部長謝謝委員的主教我們會回去做整體的檢討你不敢說要改 你要檢討什麼叫檢討"},{"start":8056.523,"end":8072.373,"text":"檢討就是要改的然後要怎麼改你的各個委員會還有立法委員在裡面擔任委員嗎立委又兼行政決策權然後又說他來監督行政部門你自己都行政決策權然後監督你說要回頭去監督行政部門這不是笑話嗎署長你怎麼說要改"},{"start":8079.308,"end":8094.057,"text":"跟委員報告剛好這個任期也到了我們現在正在全面的檢討那個下一任就是明年2526會不會再有立委擔任委員我們會審慎的審慎你不敢說不會你不敢說不會你還要續聘他嗎"},{"start":8100.189,"end":8103.391,"text":"因為我們現在委員都還沒有這個委員佔了一個民間代表的缺他用民間代表的身份進去裡面當委員据有行政決策權"},{"start":8112.918,"end":8132.347,"text":"人家民間都沒其他的人啊一來在立法院裡做立委自己就可以監督行政機關了還有理由在民間的發言機制代表民間去佔位置嗎再來立委以專家學者的身份在你們的會議裡面發言我問你啦這個立委對你預算有生殺大權你們在開會的時候"},{"start":8136.383,"end":8150.875,"text":"你敢對他所的意見提出不同意見嗎?他可以監督行政機關：有掌握你們的預算權：很多人都只能夠接受他所提出來的意見這一種立委當委員你們敢違逆他的意見嗎?你現在不跟我說嗎?跟委員報告一天還有這種立委做委員的嗎?不要說人啦!不一定是他啦!"},{"start":8166.581,"end":8168.162,"text":"你敢敢敢的什麼呢?立委自己做、立委自己去行政院內、行政部門內做委員又有行政決策權、又有立委對行政的預算監督權用他講的硬"},{"start":8186.397,"end":8213.631,"text":"現在還有嗎?你這麼不敢說不會啦 這個跟委員報告當然過去這個陳委員齁長期是我們專家委員是我們專家會議的委員很久長期單院立委的時候就應該要知道角色衝突違反三權分立又是行政權又是立法權又是行政決策權又有立法院的監督預算權像話嗎?"},{"start":8216.585,"end":8220.007,"text":"你現在是他會代言的嗎 署長?不是針對他 我們就事論事 制度面制度面改一改了啦 人家看到工程會對社會討論的沸沸揚揚了"},{"start":8234.617,"end":8243.24,"text":"你們都還在那裏恃若無睹 部長你不知道 部長你的書竟然不知道 明明都知道 但是他有什麼不敢得罪立委 他的委就是因為他是立委啦 所以不敢給他拿掉啦 這就是為什麼需要改革 這個就是為什麼今天輪到我在這裏當壞人的原因嘛"},{"start":8260.666,"end":8263.829,"text":"你自己主動改革的感受到今天我就叫做派人所以這個由此可知啊立委又兼行政部門的委員多麼的多麼的憤格多麼的衝突多麼的不合理"},{"start":8281.018,"end":8287.422,"text":"我們會檢討來改進那很好那我要問下一個問題下一個問題也很嚴重一個女子在中山區某連鎖醫美中心打電波拉皮麻醉血氧濃度下降送醫搶救不治然後麻醉醫師就出來呼籲所有類型的醫美麻醉都應該由麻醉專科醫師執行我們大家看到奇怪怎麼這麼嚴重"},{"start":8311.098,"end":8320.545,"text":"部長,你12月9日出席衛福部活動的時候有受訪。你說,如果相關專科醫學會有任何建議,你們會立即召開討論,進一步強化規範。我現在問你,過去十年裡面,因為醫美麻醉而導致死亡的案例和案件數量有多少?"},{"start":8334.985,"end":8361.507,"text":"一件事我會想,你每天都在看媽媽說這問題有多嚴重啊會覺得一個個案過去十年過去十年因為醫美麻醉而死亡多少案例?報告委員我想我們品質安全就是這不是啦你就告訴我數量就好了不要講東講西的啦一、四、四你不知道你們看到這個個案發生你們都無動於衷嗎?"},{"start":8364.078,"end":8389.203,"text":"統計數據這次在過去裡面是沒有的這一點先跟沒有可是你看到個案發生了你不會想說我快要看了你看醫事司司長你不會想到說這個問題有多嚴重嗎去做電波拉皮的女性有多少男性有多少你不會覺得風險有多少跟你醫事司的業務有關你不會聯想到嗎你不覺得你有保護人民的權利義務權利嗎"},{"start":8392.065,"end":8418.771,"text":"所以我們這次是先了解到使用的藥物是所謂的POPOPO這個藥物是需要...市長!你不要跟我講你有多關心啊!連一年多次個案發生麻醉死亡在醫美裡面你不知道我覺得你很害怕啦我再問你你總是要去分析這些醫美麻醉產生醫療糾紛的案例的亂象有哪些吧那你才能想說你要怎麼去改善這一些亂象吧"},{"start":8420.111,"end":8425.754,"text":"你怎麽不能向你們部長說,誒,待會兒麻醉醫學會,醫學會若發言起來我就來討論。誒,中央沒有掌握問題,沒有分析亂象,然後叫醫學會、民間組織提對策,這樣補充,您這醫事室司長最好做啊,您這補充最好做啊,如果這樣我林淑芬就可以來做啊。"},{"start":8443.883,"end":8458.656,"text":"報告委員真的我從我以前擔任醫師公會的幹部以後我非常清楚就整個醫美的管理大概這10年來醫師是真的用很多的心因為醫美麻醉產生的糾紛"},{"start":8465.101,"end":8467.884,"text":"到底有多嚴重啊?你說你們很用心啊!你們說你們很多人在管理啊!你就告訴我問題有多嚴重!你說不出來說你們很用心在這裡睜眼說瞎話嘛!我跟你講安全就最重要可是你連安全的課題你都沒有掌握"},{"start":8486.903,"end":8492.327,"text":"你現在根據特定醫療技術檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法第25、29只有執行第25條的第7、第8大類第7項8大類特定美容醫學手術的全身麻醉或非全身麻醉的靜脈注射麻醉你們才規定要有麻醉專科醫師執行你們認為中度及輕度的這個鎮靜麻醉不需要專科醫師執行"},{"start":8517.103,"end":8542.163,"text":"然後你們在這裡就告訴我們說欸 來我們都很注重安全而這一次出事情的你們都知道是用所謂書棉麻醉這一種話術讓消費者讓去做電波拉棉覺得說欸書棉睡一下而已嘛書棉麻醉然後其實你們打的是牛奶針你們自己都知道這個叫Purple Four牛奶針"},{"start":8546.653,"end":8566.214,"text":"麻醉專科醫師蘇柏川表示,市面上主張的牛奶針大多都是深度鎮靜。現實上,只要俗稱牛奶針的Provo,都應該全部要找麻醉專科醫師。"},{"start":8567.936,"end":8589.408,"text":"中度鎮靜容易因為外界刺激減少或病患個人的因素瞬間會掉到深度鎮靜而病患在深度鎮靜的時候如果發生呼吸道阻塞只有5分鐘可以搶救所以站在安全的立場你們說你們管很多你們這一點就完全中放沒得管"},{"start":8590.348,"end":8605.989,"text":"所有的麻醉這種使用到牛奶針全部要麻醉專科醫師您沒規範高雄長庚醫院麻醉部教授級的主治醫師吳少群有說醫美打電波清醒可以講話叫做中度鎮靜"},{"start":8608.371,"end":8619.999,"text":"打電波完全睡著叫深度鎮靜而深度鎮靜是最危險的一種麻醉方式非常容易呼吸抑制或心血管中樞抑制只有具專業的麻醉專科醫師在旁監測才能確保病人安全"},{"start":8628.885,"end":8637.128,"text":"食藥署自己也說啊。食藥署的先訪稿說牛奶這一需要由專業醫師給藥使用過程必須由醫療人員持續監測病患的心臟及呼吸功能避免因藥物過量導致呼吸衰竭而死亡而台灣在2020年當時的麻醉醫學會的理事長陳坤寶他在撰寫美容醫學這個麻醉的時候也提到"},{"start":8655.115,"end":8683.635,"text":"靜脈全身麻醉是現行美容醫學為整形也漸漸在使用全身麻醉作為主要麻醉的方式是一種趨勢喔!欸!為整形現在很流行全身麻醉靜脈全身麻醉喔!你敢這樣說然後呢一定要有麻醉專科醫師在場否則一旦出事不堪後果不堪設想"},{"start":8684.744,"end":8685.846,"text":"然後呢?"},{"start":8685.846,"end":8693.476,"text":"啊,就有人會講啊。 你們也會講啊。 行政部門也會講啊。 不然呢,這個出題一位醫生：他也有麻醉專科的一角：也有執行電波拉皮捏：。 他是兩個專科捏：。 啊,現在來了捏。 同一個醫生"},{"start":8702.288,"end":8720.657,"text":"同時執行兩項業務部長你覺得合適嗎?我又是麻醉科醫師我同時執行麻醉我又做電波拉皮的手術我同時在做這個手術你覺得一個醫生做兩個工作適合嗎?同時有關於這一點應該要有兩位醫師在處理"},{"start":8730.015,"end":8731.679,"text":"對阿,台灣麻醉醫學會吳少群李氏在他寫的"},{"start":8735.441,"end":8761.141,"text":"常見的麻醉迷思和安全建議如下實務上手術醫師因為要專注在手術如果又分心兼職麻醉常常因為受製者會動而他就會一直加深劑量或是給到受製者不動了卻忘了要頻繁監測受製者的生理治療重新評估一條降維持劑量"},{"start":8762.222,"end":8777.509,"text":"如果沒有這樣子監測好的話,錯誤有可能會走向藥物過量或麻醉過深,導致嚴重的呼吸及血管抑制。所以呢,你講的沒有錯啊。他專心在做手術,但是手術的時候這個人會顛倒,他再做麻醉。再做手術、麻醉、麻醉到他不會顛倒,這樣。這樣,一個人我都做兩項工作。我們規定就是要兩位醫師。"},{"start":8789.614,"end":8803.118,"text":"沒有啦,你的手術都沒有規定要麻醉專科醫師在那裡了,還什麼兩位醫師?你的手術本身就沒有規定要專科醫師執行麻醉了,還什麼兩個醫生?所以這樣你知道嗎?抱歉主席你讓我這個主題問完了,這是個安全的問題,我快說好了所以我現在說這個這樣"},{"start":8814.764,"end":8815.324,"text":"應該是700多家"},{"start":8842.543,"end":8849.742,"text":"合準實行特定手術700多家那你知道麻醉科人數全國一共有多少人嗎?"},{"start":8851.277,"end":8875.841,"text":"一千六百個不要講大醫院職業也不要講說有執照然後他為就業的光是你的醫美診所七百多家那大醫院的麻醉手術要怎麼進行所以台灣的麻醉專科醫師的量能夠嗎?扣掉你說的七百多家的醫院他可以配置足夠的麻醉專科醫師嗎?若大家認個法律個定位去大家都愛麻醉科醫師"},{"start":8880.249,"end":8881.17,"text":"欸?幹嘛搞?"},{"start":8881.17,"end":8904.84,"text":"所以部長你剛剛講的不可以手術醫師兼任麻醉業務這個叫驚罵醫美診所的常態在每次的醫美診所發生麻醉事故以後呢你們到底有沒有真的去反省每一次的不幸的事故都要成為你政策上除錯的反省的機制啊啊你們剛才從剛才問到現在都沒有"},{"start":8909.978,"end":8930.831,"text":"你們有一個什麼東西可以把關醫美診所?我先補充幾件事。第一件事情,陳國剛那個人在推詢的麻醉其實基本上面他為什麼要做危險分析的原因就是因為人力要用在最適當的位置。那也因為這樣其實是由另外一個受過專業訓練的"},{"start":8932.392,"end":8937.673,"text":"其實所以訓練一起在協助醫生這才是重點你們的特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用的管理辦法只有第25條的第7項的八大類的特定美容醫學手術需要具備這個麻醉專科醫師啦而你們所謂的中度或輕度的鎮靜麻醉沒有規定啦它有需要訓練這個有寫"},{"start":8959.517,"end":8969.147,"text":"阿有訓練現在就講手術醫師跟麻醉不能同一個人啦這個就是最大的風險啦這個就是最大的風險啦現在寶弟我再跟你問啦你們醫策會2019年其實有鑑於診所人力醫院資源不如醫院充足且沒有醫院評鑑這一種東西"},{"start":8982.66,"end":8990.446,"text":"所以為了推升診所整體美容醫學服務品質你們辦了一個診所美容醫學的品質認證就是以安全為基軸要強調專業人員的資格資訊的透明、環境的安全專業及安全的醫療行為突發事件緊急應變措施及客訴處理追蹤服務等就是你講的來反正你們做這些醫美診所的要去認證安全結果呢"},{"start":9010.64,"end":9030.167,"text":"你全部認證和有通過你們認證的有幾家你知道嗎現在應該診所的部分好像剩三十幾家左右三十幾家四十一家我看的是四十一家你全部你說七百多家只有四十一家從2019年到現在五年了"},{"start":9033.068,"end":9050.378,"text":"五年你全部不獲得認證的比例低成這個樣子叫做你們重視醫美診所的安全你這樣說出來是笑話嘛所以呢全台核准的施行特定美容醫學手術機構這些診所是不是都安全"},{"start":9051.38,"end":9057.148,"text":"你們的認證率這麼低,不到一成。你說這樣的醫美診所的品質足夠叫做安全嗎?你們的認證都是最基本的、最核心的。含你的認證的不敢參加。"},{"start":9066.681,"end":9081.45,"text":"而由此可知外面的醫美診所的品質安全多麼堪憂我補充一下其實就是法規是樓地板品質的要求是天花板所以在這個中間的禮拜大家玩文字遊戲"},{"start":9082.651,"end":9098.062,"text":"那如果這麼樣子的話為什麼你認證五年的時間認證只有41家他在這邊其實是會牽涉到就是我覺得要問你這個不要講那麼多出事的這一家醫美診所有沒有通過你們認證你回答我應該是沒有應該是阿來有勒這因為我不確定"},{"start":9105.856,"end":9109.279,"text":"蘇偉春醫師來講喔你們在這個認證是以安全為基礎保障人民就醫的安全但是參與的診所偏少然後這個認證的項目分成兩類哪兩類"},{"start":9119.687,"end":9124.769,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":9140.674,"end":9140.854,"text":"這個細節我要確認好 這個蘇偉川講的"},{"start":9161.653,"end":9180.289,"text":"每有所屬是診所自行去選填他要認證哪一類是要光電類還是手術類但是呢電波拉皮就是光電治療不會在醫策會現行診所的麻醉鎮靜安全查核的範圍內所以他如果認證為光電類認證何可"},{"start":9184.893,"end":9192.896,"text":"也不保證他的麻醉鎮靜安全的安全因為醫策會沒有集合這一個項目另外申請手術類人家醫美診所也有偷吃包我只要去選割雙眼皮就好了"},{"start":9204.221,"end":9205.222,"text":"因為割雙眼皮不在特管法規範的手術內所以為醫策會去認證也不會特別去查有沒有符合麻醉規範老實說啦醫美診所再去接一個麻醉專科醫師"},{"start":9222.745,"end":9238.093,"text":"解開的大家都要選擇這個人、這個身份然後呢大家想我光電類認證過了但是你的麻醉安全沒有其實政府不要管你我手術類認證過了但我申請的是雙眼皮然後消費者看不見看不見電波拉皮的光電類嘛然後你以為他手術安全認證了這麼好那我就選有認證的結果他的認證只有選割雙眼皮"},{"start":9252.503,"end":9258.368,"text":"你聽到嗎?你都不知道,你的問題很嚴重。你14次你學到的特技的技術中,個案發生了還是有動於中?沒有想到我整體的醫美診所、醫美的這一些要怎麼規範都沒在想,就要你為了這給你提起。就這樣提起後,你聽到嗎?要解釋嗎?"},{"start":9277.399,"end":9283.923,"text":"市長,那你在這裡承諾,市長你覺得就哪幾面向你要處理?我會覺得是第一個第一件事情其實是"},{"start":9294.773,"end":9295.613,"text":"那一個醫生同時執行麻醉又執行手術那要怎麼處理?"},{"start":9324.301,"end":9347.727,"text":"現況就是規定在美濃醫學這邊是不行的所以我才會說落實規定這件事情你們要去集合嗎?全國你說如果不行啊大家都這樣做捏那很簡單喔你去要求他他的執行這個叫電波拉皮執行什麼手術的然後他的專科醫師有用到這個針的牛奶針的"},{"start":9350.968,"end":9376.394,"text":"那他的醫師有使用麻醉科醫師嗎?麻醉科醫師有沒有蓋章?全國總機查就知道了啊,絕對沒有的嘛我也會覺得是說落實這一塊其實是所有醫界都會很關心的然後怎麼樣在人力上面做到我現在講的是行政管理啦,行政管理沒有行政管理、沒有法規就等於是沒好大家講什麼都假"},{"start":9378.034,"end":9406.102,"text":"現在特管密碼裡面的美容醫療這一塊的輕度到中度就是需要兩個人的這件事情我覺得是我們可以來做落實的 醫生人家醫學會告訴你只要有牛奶針就絕對是必須要有麻醉科醫師啦不是一個人分四兩角啦 對啊然後也不是中度的啦 中度 同時再用大牙就再把它鑄下去 讓它不痛不痛 讓它比較好吸收對不對 容易就問題很嚴重 你們要好好想一下"},{"start":9409.227,"end":9415.013,"text":"謝謝林淑文委員、謝謝部長。那接下來我們請王振旭,王振旭委員執行完休息10分鐘。"},{"start":9437.65,"end":9438.61,"text":"麻煩大家加油"},{"start":9464.676,"end":9491.79,"text":"這個專案檢討報告裡面其實剛剛很多委員的想法還有我想媒體也披露出大家的意見可能也都不太一樣可是次長一直在強調就是說不要誤中當然也要不要誤忘嘛不然的話造成未來在處理上的一些困境所以針對這份報告剛好設定什麼樣的條件什麼情形之下才有需要重啓調查"},{"start":9493.371,"end":9497.836,"text":"目前有沒有這樣的這些循環?還是說這個需要嗎?好 那個 理事非常感謝我們王正旭委員的那個詮詢那我 容我這樣這一個說明三個重點第一我們的整個這個程序就是"},{"start":9514.861,"end":9522.708,"text":"外部委員大於內部委員外部委員有經過社會心理、諮商、行政法及霸凌等具有公信力的學者專家組成"},{"start":9531.115,"end":9545.203,"text":"第2個我們的程序量化實話我們都做了非常非常詳細的調查我們除了量化的這一個問卷之外我們全場我們總共有96位的同仁來願意來接受我們的這一個訪談"},{"start":9547.884,"end":9560.512,"text":"同時我們有相關的一個的一個事證所以整個這個程序面真的是有非常非常嚴謹的一個調查程序而且最重要就是說我們這個部分我們本部也都是尊重這個學者專家的一個相關的意見來做成"},{"start":9564.835,"end":9583.465,"text":"我們一定是尊重這一個委員的意見當然在這個過程裡面或許對於整個所謂什麼叫霸凌的定義其實老實說我們現在目前除了人種之外其實大部分我們是援引這一個法院的一個相關的判決法院它其實對於這個部分都有一個非常非常相關的這個定義"},{"start":9585.146,"end":9611.027,"text":"其實如果我們我覺得這個部分如果跟社會通面民眾如果說確實有一些我覺得這個我們會來後續來跟人種反映然後來做相關的就希望能夠透過大家不斷的去認識當初這個過程裡面尤其是外部委員提供的意見沒錯是小會打開的話讓你理解這樣的話對於這部分的報告大家可以慢慢的理解為什麼會做成這一份"},{"start":9612.107,"end":9631.964,"text":"狀況報告的這個最後結果。是是是。好,也謝謝,先謝謝次長。我今天有四個題目要給這個部長請教。一個就是落實分級醫療。再來就是藥品穩定的供應。再生醫療到底執法定定的進度如何。最後還是在強調這個麻醉安全的部分。"},{"start":9632.805,"end":9655.947,"text":"若實分級醫療大家都很清楚這個是非常重要的一個政策來針對醫療人力跟醫療資源合理的分配那我們也看到一些數據讓我們擔心好像初級照護在分級醫療成效不是那麼樣的理想那最近我們也看到這個前署長李博章署長也"},{"start":9657.288,"end":9681.593,"text":"提出建議說醫療有病意外也要針對於這個檢驗檢查實施的部分也希望有好的一個不溫負擔的一個處理模式當然我們也知道在這個過程很有可能會影響到這個就醫者的權益這個要如何能夠處理的比較妥當一點這需要智慧那目前健保署署長也在這裡齁也有規劃說要"},{"start":9684.594,"end":9707.029,"text":"不再統一定出醫院應降低的門診限數比率同時也要改透過分區共管會議要求門診比率較高的醫院來降低門診量我們也知道其實家庭意識制度是擔任守門診的角度部長也是這方面的專家可以同時請教一下署長"},{"start":9707.97,"end":9731.864,"text":"跟部長這邊要處理才有機會讓我們的分級醫療跟部分負擔可以同步來處理到一個讓在未來大家比較容易去理解跟接受的部分好 謝謝委員這麼專業的錘形關心到我們整個醫療體系怎麼樣做有效力的一個更的一個改革那其實我們從"},{"start":9733.845,"end":9748.005,"text":"在前兩屆尤其是李博章署長擔任的署長以後其實我們在這個地方已經討論過很多很多次的分級醫療包括提出的時候像測類"},{"start":9749.207,"end":9771.95,"text":"那也一個一個一直在基本在進行啦齁那我想剛剛委員所念的這個部分以及健保署所提的我還是要強調一點我們一定要站在民眾的立場上來思考也許比較會成功啦齁你說你要推分給醫療你給他用部分負擔或者是做一點限制"},{"start":9772.895,"end":9787.702,"text":"那對很多人他想去他如果還是相信醫學中心的話或者是大的基地醫院我想那個他還是會直接衝去並不會受到影響所以我們推了很多政策也許都沒有辦法達到明顯的"},{"start":9788.925,"end":9813.846,"text":"那個成效但是我在這邊還是要感謝這些人來的所有的醫療院所針對於分級醫療也很認真在配合啦所以臺灣的一個也成立了大概81個策略聯盟這策略聯盟就是醫院我相信任何一個醫院都有就大醫院都有各級醫院還有診所成立一個區域聯盟這個其實是過去的一個成效"},{"start":9814.426,"end":9837.912,"text":"但是看起來這數目數好像還是不是明顯那我覺得站在民眾的立場上我們來思考怎麼樣讓民眾能夠在社區就能夠找到一個他很信任而且什麼問題或家庭的不足個人小孩老人都可以找到一個可以互動的一個醫師甚至一個醫師群"},{"start":9839.756,"end":9859.026,"text":"這個其實在20年前來20年來我們也就成立社區醫療群就是往社區醫療群就是5到10個醫師成為一個家庭醫師群這個部分已經成為國際之光所以要好好善用這個我覺得政府應該加強這個家庭醫師群的功能"},{"start":9860.186,"end":9882.836,"text":"讓他在民眾都能夠直接有什麼任何問題就直接找找他如果在這邊就得到很好的照顧他不但要轉要轉診的時候也可以轉到最適當的一個醫師最適當的一個醫院這對民眾是一個很好的一個治療的方式一個非常有效率的方式所以如果能夠這樣的話我相信民眾自然就會分解醫療"},{"start":9884.116,"end":9895.795,"text":"透過民眾的自覺期待透過那民眾對基層醫療對社區醫療有信心後面的真的給他照顧好我想這是應該要做的重點"},{"start":9899.542,"end":9920.135,"text":"各位委員報告就如同剛剛部長所揭示的大的方向就是如何壯大基層讓民眾信任基層的服務所以我們已經有多項的計畫包含那個加一計畫二點大加一計畫如何協助這個這個基層的診所去提升他的這些智慧照顧資訊能力"},{"start":9922.256,"end":9928.962,"text":"我補充一下我們現在的人是需要從健康促進早期預疾病預防早期篩檢到後來在最後能夠居家醫療到最後善終這整個過程當中"},{"start":9946.198,"end":9957.557,"text":"真的很需要社區醫療把它加強那有必要的話就隨時轉到醫院這個雙向轉診非常暢通這真的是人民健康維護最好的一個方式"},{"start":9957.967,"end":9981.402,"text":"好感謝兩位再來就是藥品穩定供應的部分那個莊署長好像也有在現場我們知道最近有兩個相關的執法在做公告有四個修改的方向其實根據統計我們也知道說70%的健保藥品的使用是透過我們國產的藥品在處理"},{"start":9983.963,"end":10007.648,"text":"可是它只佔了總體要會的22%相對是偏低一些那如何能夠確保我們這個健保用藥供應的韌性跟穩定性這部分目前除了這個4個修法的方向以外那還有沒有其他政策上要再讓更多民眾能夠理解或者是讓我們在"},{"start":10009.329,"end":10023.804,"text":"這個製藥界也知道這樣的努力是可以讓我們的這個藥品的供應的韌性是可以能夠得到好的加強因為我們知道不管是在治療公衛啦或者是天災戰爭的這些韌性都非常非常的重要"},{"start":10025.194,"end":10052.868,"text":"謝謝委員的這個非常重要的催省那我想提供用藥安全跟品質然後增加供應的韌性是目前我們最具體努力在做的也具體的提出了相關的一些一些辦法那這個大概委員也有呈現那有沒有更具體要說明的我們先請健保署實施長幫我們再補充一下"},{"start":10053.488,"end":10079.067,"text":"跟委員報告大概我們從兩方面一方面是鼓勵這個新藥的開發就是國內的新藥的開發所以對於首發的新藥或者是在國際上上市兩年內可以到台灣製造的新藥或者是長期在國外但是屬於國內的新成分的這個藥品我們都會在這一次的修法裡面去提高這個給付的誘因"},{"start":10080.908,"end":10105.141,"text":"另外對於學密藥的部分我們則兩方面一方面是我們今年都開始實施對於生物相似性用藥的鼓勵措施來鼓勵醫療院所那麼有額外的獎勵計畫就是論質計酬方案那另外在這個藥價調整的時候對於必要的藥品該組裡面是少於三個品項那當年我們就不調整這個"},{"start":10106.522,"end":10107.603,"text":"希望民眾會對我們的國產用藥更有信心"},{"start":10129.605,"end":10153.842,"text":"有時候大家都很高興說今天要怎麼做才剛好這樣感謝再來就是有關於這個再生醫療執法的部分因為我們自從上半會期通過再生醫療雙法以後大家都很期待這個年底16個執法可以完成不知道現在已經12月這個有機會完成嗎"},{"start":10154.782,"end":10181.798,"text":"好,報告委員這分兩個部分一個是再生醫療法再生醫療法我們要擬定九個子辦法現在已經陸續完成草案了大概預計在114年的第一季會進行法規的預告作業那有關於再生醫療治劑條例那這個部分我們都會訂七項執法規其中一項已經在今年的10月19號完成法規的預告那現在剛好在搜集各界的意見當中"},{"start":10183.219,"end":10208.566,"text":"目前其他的也陸續在進行因為大家都很期待啊尤其這個再生醫療很多很多民眾再生醫療這個很複雜也很多人性你看我們一個法就討論得很大力所以執法規我們更是要很仔細把它落實來主席我現在想問一個問題強化麻醉安全很快的"},{"start":10209.466,"end":10226.251,"text":"大家都已經很清楚了嘛齁現在就是說衛福部目前有沒有什麼討論規劃跟進度還是說有什麼樣的一個月或多久時間可不可以給我們一個書面報告好沒有問題我想我們趕快針對現在大家所隨興的問題"},{"start":10228.152,"end":10244.21,"text":"立刻來召集相關的單位、團體,一起來討論,連理出一個能夠真的是保護尤其是醫美診所能夠更加的安全、更加的有品質。好,謝謝副主席、謝謝主席、謝謝。謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。休息十分鐘。"},{"start":10284.065,"end":10284.693,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10980.731,"end":10981.172,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會。"},{"start":11005.063,"end":11015.106,"text":"我們在廖偉祥諮詢完之後處理臨時提案然後接著就休息20分鐘吃便當不能有霸凌現在請樓定偉委員諮詢好謝謝召委有請部長"},{"start":11032.831,"end":11033.912,"text":"部長請問一下你第一次當立委的時候是哪一年啊?"},{"start":11049.907,"end":11051.709,"text":"如果你質詢的提出正確的一個事實"},{"start":11065.993,"end":11092.327,"text":"指正政府要求改善回應的時候政府官員因為你是菜鳥立委就以機非程式糊弄的方式回應你公開記者會打臉你然後不久就按照你陳述的事實來處理並且告訴你這個答案啊就是你要求的請問一下你知道會感覺怎麼樣是憎怒要求道歉還是摸摸鼻子覺得自己菜鳥算了您覺得呢"},{"start":11093.047,"end":11117.607,"text":"我想我們都不會覺得自己是菜鳥算了這個好就這句話所以你可以認同為什麼我要一直追我覺得是一個公平正義一個公道我們來看一下113年10月16齁你們給我三個回函第一個回函16日用人單位考量0元具20年以上的國會經驗你們需要這是10月1611月8號"},{"start":11121.243,"end":11141.781,"text":"又給我一個回函:「經了解該員資格與徵才公告資格的確有不符。」這是11月8號的來我們看到11月20突然給我一個回函:「林員為輔仁大學哲學系碩士畢業與徵才公告資格卻有不符。」"},{"start":11142.481,"end":11160.889,"text":"即刻終止勞動契約。部長,食藥署的人事案我問了很多次了。部長,之前同意的理由是什麼?最後辭退零信付審查員的理由又是什麼?對照一、二、三,三個回函,現在你要怎麼轉回來?"},{"start":11163.206,"end":11163.927,"text":"您不覺得你整個就是在烏龍轉桌嗎?"},{"start":11179.728,"end":11193.589,"text":"對兩個另外被取的要怎麼交代他們都是公平的領選機制以為國家可以信任卻沒想到敗給的關說領員的薪資他的任職因為有做所以我們要發"},{"start":11194.59,"end":11215.781,"text":"這點沒錯但是錯誤的聘任是署內的長官那麼發給林園的公帑要不要追回還是這些長官要私人來顛覆?署內的長官用寄生戒就可以抹掉所有的關說還有沒有去落實誘人制度的公平公正公開的一個精神難道我們不用追究嗎?"},{"start":11216.661,"end":11234.074,"text":"霸凌很可惡但是接受關說更可惡接受關說還關關相誤是超級可惡所以我要問一下我們現在企科組的許昭凱組長難道寄生戒就可以了事了嗎生戒有什麼好怕的"},{"start":11235.063,"end":11253.696,"text":"到時候將功補過不就補回來了?莊署長您在學術界擔任教職應該享有很高的一個聲望您之前捨棄教職入朝為官短短半年今天我們回顧之前的記者會上面說的一個說法署長你說啊該位人員研究所的確不在徵求的範圍內"},{"start":11255.217,"end":11276.308,"text":"但是呢,署長表示尊重用人單位的推薦他的通過文件是你簽的跟現在實際狀況做對比你當初的說法跟學術界的一個所謂的作假論文又有什麼差別?跟學生考試作弊抓到以後理由還一堆有什麼不同?"},{"start":11277.318,"end":11301.41,"text":"部長,這個火鐘像會燒相於你。你要不要道歉?還要給另外兩位被娶的人一個道歉。你要不要為這個領導無方來做道歉?這是你6月以後開始上任所爭財的。你要不要明明不符合誘人資格卻在院會、在卓永泰院長旁邊、在國會殿堂上面說謊而道歉?"},{"start":11302.75,"end":11328.387,"text":"這個用人明顯的沒有符合用人制度今天我要再次的聲明我要求你道歉的不是只是對於本席而是對於這些被娶人員沒有接受到公平公正而且扭曲了事實讓社會的弱勢沒有良好家庭的背景的小孩在求職的路上輸在了起跑點就因為他沒有背景就因為他沒有人關說向社會來道歉"},{"start":11329.528,"end":11339.334,"text":"我想這個部分也要給這些備取生一個公道您不道歉我一定追到為止部長您在這個部分上我希望你有一個說法謝謝委員的關心跟催省我想"},{"start":11345.676,"end":11361.443,"text":"這個人事案我們也經過討論一連串的一個想要把它做到做到圓滿所以一開始當然就是用原來的一個我想署長這邊接受的訊息就是尊重用人單位這個其實每一個"},{"start":11363.784,"end":11367.227,"text":"那對於這個社會弱勢並沒有良好背景的孩子在求職路上輸在的關說"},{"start":11387.244,"end":11396.529,"text":"這個部分或者是他在所謂的並不符合用人規則但是他卻可以錄取你要不要跟這兩位備取生跟社會大眾做一個交代"},{"start":11398.811,"end":11418.626,"text":"對,我想這個部分應該當時的考量齁那個用人的單位的考量是那個哇,你一直在結巴欸我先救你啊我先救你,我也不願意待見我先講另外一個案件喔因為我們就不要拖在這個世界上人事案的另一件事情陳姓紀師"},{"start":11420.087,"end":11444.905,"text":"衛福部跟我回答成員在109年7月1號因配合組內的業務來做一個整合調整藥品組第三科藥界種枝成員與生達生產這兩間藥商具有二等級以內的親屬關係食藥署卻仍不避嫌仍執意要調這個該職究竟如何同意理由為何藥品組林建陽組長有關係嗎"},{"start":11446.468,"end":11461.741,"text":"最重要的是我有發文所知喔但是食藥署竟然拒絕回答請問部長這個表格為什麼會拒答?這表格有什麼問題嗎?上週五我又重新發文一次請問這次可不可以以我畫好的表格來據實回答?"},{"start":11463.175,"end":11466.057,"text":"我請署長回答一下好了"},{"start":11486.206,"end":11501.216,"text":"報告委員因為當時我們看到這份文的時候我們就調了所有的案件它事實上就會給委員的時候是所有的詳細的列表沒有到委員的這個表格填這個是我們當時的書主導你先告訴社會大眾他在是不是二等清"},{"start":11503.037,"end":11503.518,"text":"一個案子"},{"start":11531.095,"end":11555.943,"text":"大家有聽到嗎有一個案子不小心沒有避嫌到真的很抱歉那個案子是他要求在展演那我們是在疏審的時候不管這個案子是什麼有沒有避嫌到是今天法規規定要求的你告訴大家了有一個案子沒有避嫌到這就是為什麼我們要追的原因嘛所以我要講的是今天會追你們不是沒有原因"},{"start":11556.343,"end":11577.241,"text":"一定是中間有疏漏中間影響到了公平公正今天不管是所謂的入取的問題沒有公平公正對所有的藥界藥商大家追求的都是公平公正我們希望食藥署衛福部應該要道歉應該要改進應該要糾正我想這個部分您要最後回答我給你10秒"},{"start":11578.869,"end":11599.76,"text":"我們現在所有的系統已經在跑了,所以這才會那時候才調出這個案子,我們以後會更加...所以你願意改進是嗎?那改進就是因為有錯才會改進,對吧?是嗎?這個是我們當時的一個疏忽。好,謝謝。好,謝謝羅委員,謝謝部長。那接下來我們請何欣淳委員。黃秀,黃秀,謝謝。"},{"start":11610.37,"end":11615.815,"text":"抱歉抱歉跳跳跳又炸了啦黃秀文召委質詢謝謝主席我們請部長召委好"},{"start":11628.8,"end":11657.265,"text":"部長好,部長辛苦了。部長就今天的這個討論我是來希望就是說我們那個衛福部裡面的這個有關霸凌的這個案件那已經結果也有出來嘛。那我想請教就是說目前我們不論是行政院或者是我們衛福部這邊有一個霸凌的申訴就是申訴然後可能就是要求如果當事人的話可能就是要具名嘛。"},{"start":11658.866,"end":11684.759,"text":"提出。其實我覺得如果說以事實的話,如果當事人用具名的話,其實也是壓力非常的大。就是說當事人如果他受到主管的霸凌或其他人的霸凌,其實如果以他來具名的話,其實那個壓力之大,我覺得部長你應該也可以想見。再來就是說如果他登錄,就是說有這個霸凌的去登錄,"},{"start":11686.84,"end":11710.515,"text":"登錄之後可能就有這個長官找你來談談話就像之前那個勞動部一樣長官也許次長就來談談話談談話完之後覺得這好像也不是霸凌所以這個很多看到的就是說這個長官誤談之後也許就會測案那這個霸凌率可能就變成零"},{"start":11711.115,"end":11735.888,"text":"那我今天要講的就是說其實這個會有一個困境就是說這個申訴管道普遍認為如果說是要具名的話可能讓這個當事人會覺得對於這個管道不是那麼的信任可能會覺得不信任那另外如果說不具名的檢舉的話又留為這個黑函就通常都是這樣嘛尤其是公務機關如果你沒有具名的話"},{"start":11737.009,"end":11759.656,"text":"可能就會被列為說這個就是黑函那如果居民的話他壓力又非常的大那我想請教就是說怎麼樣就是在衛福部裡面怎麼樣讓你的基層的這個員工可以信任然後又可以落實這個查查然後又不會杜絕於這個就是要杜絕這個霸凌的這種情況在發生"},{"start":11761.519,"end":11786.465,"text":"是不是可以請先部長先回答?經過這些檢討我們做了一些處理以後我們更重要的是怎麼樣創造一個更友善更沒有零霸凌的一個環境這是我們不管是從法規制度從文化的建立從教育方面我們一定會全力來努力那至於說那個"},{"start":11787.885,"end":11809.564,"text":"另外就是不記名這個部分就行政院或者是我們也針對所有只要他不記名但是他有能夠講出他的一個事實的當事人以及具體的事證的話我們也會處理像這一次我們其實很多都是不記名在處理的"},{"start":11811.249,"end":11826.544,"text":"那至於說在相關的一個衛福部怎麼樣來做常規的一個處理這個部分請理事長來幫忙回應一下因為理事長現在是負責的"},{"start":11827.506,"end":11847.561,"text":"OK,非常非常感謝委員那個垂詢。誠如剛剛部長剛所說,我們整個這個相關,我們整個這個相關的那個程序,確實是在一個非常嚴格而且非常嚴謹的一個程序來進行。我在那個重複一次,第一個我們的外部委員高達四位。"},{"start":11848.362,"end":11872.91,"text":"然後其實大概cover大概就是說這一個領域裡面這個都是非常非常學有專精的一個專家學者所以他們對於相關的一個都已經非常有經驗另外第二個就是說我們在這個部分其實有進行高達96位的這個同仁的一個相關的調查的一個程序所以有相關的這一個部分我們都在做那至於剛剛委員您剛有特別提到有關具名不具名"},{"start":11873.49,"end":11890.779,"text":"基本上就是說其實我們只要就算是不具名但是你有具體指涉當事人以及具體的事證的話其實我們也受理其實我們這一次我們的調查就是根據這個原則所以讓我們的整個這一個收案的標準事實上是相對寬鬆的一個情況之下用比較寬鬆的標準來面對這一個事情"},{"start":11900.084,"end":11918.579,"text":"其實我們發現有時候部門如果有受到這樣子的不合理的對待也許他們會覺得說我直接向媒體爆料也許會直接跟這個部會來申訴的這個效果更好"},{"start":11919.399,"end":11937,"text":"我是覺得說未來這個管道就是說申訴的管道應該要更暢通那如果說以目前來講如果不合時宜的部分應該也要去做一個檢討所以那個次長你覺得說現在目前這樣的一個申訴的一個管道已經很暢通了嗎"},{"start":11937.921,"end":11965.138,"text":"報告委員其實部長常常跟我們講沒有最好只有更好所以我們這個基本上一定這個部分一定是要來持續精進讓同仁有一個最有尊嚴而且最好的一個整個這個工作環境其實委員也知道就是說其實在疫情期間還有我們衛福部其實擔負國家很重要的這個責任同仁真的非常辛苦然後還有我們社工長照這個部分但是即使是這樣"},{"start":11966.459,"end":11966.539,"text":"議員提到"},{"start":11999.541,"end":12018.434,"text":"來訪問這個行為人讓他們有一個整個交叉比對然後其實調查小組也是用這樣的一個整個交叉比對的結果來做成到底是否成立與否的一個根據所以確實整個這一個我們都是有所本的一個相關證據來做出我們是誤中但是也誤王的一個結論謝謝在衛環委員會這三個部會不論是衛福部、勞動部或環保署"},{"start":12025.679,"end":12030.265,"text":"環境部這三個部會其實我就以這一個預算審查的會期來講其實勞動部跟環境部兩個加起來的預算的提案都沒有衛福部一個部多"},{"start":12041.218,"end":12061.369,"text":"所以確實衛福部的這個案子真的非常的吃重而且我們所有的工作同仁我們的同仁確實真的這個工作量也非常大尤其是在預算會期你還要去委員所有的提案你還要一案一案去跟委員去做這個溝通確實真的是案件量也多然後溝通確實有時候"},{"start":12063.57,"end":12076.917,"text":"要花很多時間吼所以我也覺得說當公務人員當當這個在衛福部工作的這些公務人員確實真的非常非常的辛苦那我我想請教部長吼就是說案件量這麼多那工作量這麼大其實我"},{"start":12078.738,"end":12104.073,"text":"之前我們這個辦公室的一個同仁他有到這個衛福部本部去辦理那個醫事人員的證書結果在一樓的這個辦理的窗口辦理文件的時候這個服務人員你們衛福部的服務人員一方面要接電話就是接用那個耳麥接電話一方面又要服務來的這個民眾確實這個工作量真的非常的大那我想請教就是說如果人力不足的話"},{"start":12105.254,"end":12107.277,"text":"你總是要讓他們有一個好的一個工作環境吧?"},{"start":12123.117,"end":12151.406,"text":"我們一直在講就是說這個要讓勞工有一個好的工作環境那即使公務人員你要讓他有一個好的工作環境而不是讓他過勞所以我想請教部長就是說未來我們要怎麼樣去讓我們的這個衛福部裡面的這個工作能夠更有效率然後分工能夠更明確那另外就是說委員會的這個委員所有的提案其實你們衛福部這個預算的這個提案"},{"start":12153.427,"end":12179,"text":"您們的案子真的比這兩個部會加起來還多確實真的非常辛苦啦,趙委是啊,很辛苦耶所以我剛剛說趙委那個蘇趙委真的也要幫點忙尤其剩下幾天的時間啦真的要讓這些公務人員一方面能夠順利的去溝通然後讓這個案子能夠順利那另外一方面真的也不要讓他們過勞啦那我想請教部長,您未來要怎麼做"},{"start":12180.256,"end":12197.947,"text":"我想我們為了國家的發展、人民的健康相關的部門特別是衛福部真的是叫日以繼夜我想所有的人除了在上班的時候腦筋響著都是怎麼樣把他的工作做得正有品質這也是"},{"start":12199.15,"end":12226.666,"text":"人性一個求好一個也是一個求好的人性當然我們一直呼籲我們要有一個上班的時候就上班下班的時候就好好放鬆去做健康的工作跟家人相聚這是一個理想的狀況但是工作的量份量如果超過他上班時間能做的或者是在效率上我們是還有精進的空間的話這個部分的確會讓"},{"start":12228.479,"end":12253.584,"text":"因為我也算公務機關做了幾十年從台大醫院還有都是差不多在公務機關其實真的工作同仁都非常的辛苦壓力都非常的大所以我們真的要互相體諒互相支持然後用那領導者就必須要用更有效率讓大家更快樂的一個方式來帶領"},{"start":12255.105,"end":12268.743,"text":"那面對外面的壓力有時候主管者也要去承擔不要把壓力承到基層的太多到基層的一個同仁所以是社會主管也必須要去承擔的"},{"start":12269.944,"end":12295.027,"text":"一個責任當然主管也不要垮掉人力不足的部分其實我覺得應該要去爭取我們一直其實不管是預算或者人力這個都是隨著其實都是隨著工作的量以及我們求對人民的照顧求好當中真的也會自然就會增加那這個部分真的也是大家需要體諒跟幫忙"},{"start":12296.268,"end":12315.825,"text":"這樣才能夠讓我們的公務人員真的過得有尊嚴、快樂然後大家共同來改變一個更好的文化因為最近的一些事故讓我們的臺灣職場更好不管是勞動或者是公務能夠更好這就是我們這麼辛苦、這麼痛苦之下希望為臺灣能夠還貢獻這個部分"},{"start":12320.271,"end":12339.224,"text":"我結尾一下,你這樣一直要說我下來沒有,我當然就是中心的這個請因為預算會期總是這個需要跟所有的委員溝通只是我看到就是說那個衛福部的相關的這個預算提案這麼多這個這麼多確實"},{"start":12342.246,"end":12362.355,"text":"也讓衛福部的主管疲於奔命還要去溝通所以我覺得一方面可能人力不足的部分可能要再去補充另外一方面可能就是工作分配另外一方面可能也要請我們所有的委員也要去體恤不論是勞動士、勞工"},{"start":12365.276,"end":12389.163,"text":"其實勞工的這個工作環境其實公務人員的這個工作環境也要去重視而不是其實很多公務人員他即使假日加班或晚上加班他也不敢報加班費他就是責任制他就把工作做完那有時候工作做完可能就都三更半夜有時候早上就出門所以我覺得說我們大家互相體諒那尤其是在這個會期真的我也在這邊誠心的拜託這個召委"},{"start":12394.324,"end":12394.724,"text":"我回應一下 謝謝我想我在醫療這麼久"},{"start":12411.377,"end":12437.848,"text":"最聽到的可能會比較辛苦的都是衛福部聽說以前這幾天衛生署、衛福部其實都是到晚上都還是燈光開著真的一直都是很辛苦我相信能夠在衛福部工作這麼久真的是在這邊令人敬佩因為我才剛到沒多久我可以感謝過去大家的努力當然未來我們希望"},{"start":12438.348,"end":12438.368,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":12457.555,"end":12473.987,"text":"好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳召委謝謝部長那何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我人不在那再來請廖偉祥委員質詢那我們下個禮拜三禮拜四省衛生部的預算就是25、26大家準備好"},{"start":12485.247,"end":12487.449,"text":"謝謝主席 有請邱部長部長你好今天題目準備比較多我想要先問一下再生醫療雙法在上個會期的6月19號公佈通過那在條文的最後有說相關的規定施行細則跟施行日期由衛福部與行政院定之喔那差幾天就滿半年了為何到現在還不公佈細則跟日期"},{"start":12515.342,"end":12542.831,"text":"這兩個一個是再生醫療法一個是再生醫療制計法那再生醫療法由144在處理那因為牽涉到蠻多的內容部長請問那什麼時候可以九個子辦法現在已經陸續完成草案預計在114年第一季進行法規預告作業114年第一季是不是所以114年可以齁好因為之前我看到有媒體也報導你的態度好像沒有太支持啊"},{"start":12543.551,"end":12565.444,"text":"希望不要因為這樣子拖延到我非常支持但是我必須要支持一個一個獨國利民的再生立法所以你們就是第一季第一季明年的第一季會出來第一季會預告預告好那到時候請到時候再跟你報告再跟你報告好不好那再來有關於霸凌案最新的調查報告"},{"start":12566.894,"end":12593.476,"text":"今天的專案報告內容中說霸凌案訪談了96名員工請問都是訪問在職的嗎?如果有訪問已經離職或是已經請掉外單位的員工應該不會只有96位吧?非常感謝廖委員對於我們這個問題的一個垂詢我跟委員報告我們這個部分除了我們現職的員工同仁之外其實也有已經已離職的員工"},{"start":12595.069,"end":12623.109,"text":"大概是幾個?有找到幾個移植員工?具體的案例,我想,我是不是有請這個人事處長來跟您做一個說明,謝謝。跟那個委員報告,我們這邊不方便去透露離職員工幾個個案,因為這個很容易被那個識別化,但是就是當初第一波網路問卷的時候,離職員工如果"},{"start":12624.329,"end":12640.016,"text":"就是說他如果因為好你說網路問卷嗎那你們發出幾份回收幾份網路問卷依照每個人他服務的單位不同只要他是現任跟前任的我就問說大概你們發出了幾份回收幾份"},{"start":12641.121,"end":12642.041,"text":"我們大概總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總總"},{"start":12668.886,"end":12684.995,"text":"是不是對往生者不禁又覺得在家屬的傷口上傻眼?你們真的覺得這是用心高規格嗎?你們真的有查清楚嗎?報告委員我們對於調查要勿重但是也要勿枉那第一點第二點我們這個就是說那位同仁他的整個他的那個舊衣102年"},{"start":12688.336,"end":12689.477,"text":"我問一下那我另外進一步問喔另外叫人家深蹲啊"},{"start":12703.732,"end":12719.086,"text":"做福利挺身甚至這次根本就已經上升到體罰的層次那怎麼可能不是霸凌呢?如果不是旁邊有人把他錄下來不然你被強迫深蹲跟福利挺身的時候你有辦法錄影自保、蒐證自保嗎?報告是不是要重啟重寫啊?"},{"start":12719.827,"end":12748.077,"text":"是報告委員我做兩點說明第一個就是有關於福利及衛生我之前已經說是在那個是2022年12月那剛好有一位新進同仁進來然後他做就是他跟大家自我介紹的時候說他會健身然後呢師長他說那你的福利及衛生很強喔那另外還有一位替代役他也說他們平常會做所以你一直說他說他很強他就叫他來做福利及衛生給大家看那這樣算不算"},{"start":12749.537,"end":12754.92,"text":"這樣不算霸凌嗎?他如果說我有一個員工說深蹲很強,那我問你啊,這個我助理剛剛也跟我說他蠻會深蹲的,他說我現在叫他深蹲放PowerPoint,你覺得這樣算不算霸凌?這是不是也是利益良善?"},{"start":12765.965,"end":12783.683,"text":"今天我注意說他BMI比較高按照我們過去的一個整個這個法院的一個對於這一個部分的那個判決其實對於所謂霸凌他就是要構成敵意環境而且是持續性的那我必須要說這個住信司長他這個行為他這個管理行為我認為我也覺得這個實在是很不當啦"},{"start":12784.484,"end":12792.188,"text":"對,你都已經覺得不當了,那這怎麼可能不是霸凌?但是並沒有構成,我們必須要尊重學者專家他們的整個組織調查。今天我請我的助理說,我覺得你邊深蹲邊放簡報你會瘦,他就也不好意思拒絕我,然後他就開始深蹲放簡報,我這樣會不會算霸凌?"},{"start":12808.032,"end":12814.234,"text":"不是,報告委員因為沒有啊,市長你剛剛都已經說你也覺得不太妥了啊對,我是說就整個管理行為上面來說這一個我是覺得應該要所以我們也因為這樣市長我跟你說你也知道上次這個何佩珊部長在這裡他一樣的調查報告弄出來之後你覺得大家會不會覺得很荒謬就是說深蹲、伏地挺身都不算是霸凌那我覺得"},{"start":12834.682,"end":12848.53,"text":"我說真的聽到你們這樣的報告我想很多公務人員都會很緊張吧甚至我們的助理也很緊張吧如果今天一時興起他有一天說他剛去健身回來非常的非常的壯我就說那你做福利提升給大家看那大家會不會覺得很荒謬"},{"start":12850.742,"end":12851.943,"text":"市長因為我想這個很多人在檢舉我想就是"},{"start":12880.436,"end":12894.846,"text":"你們在報告之外真的沒有辦法讓大家很幸福你們是不是應該要再回去再去深究一下到底是不是有問題啊這看起來是很荒謬很離譜的事情喔那另外現在不只是這個霸凌案啊"},{"start":12896.226,"end":12907.675,"text":"連臺大醫院也傳出臺大知名不孕症權威我們就這裡叫代號C教授好了被6名住院醫生研究醫生申訴性騷擾性騷擾案經過性評調查後確認有性騷擾的事實請問部長這個事情你有瞭解嗎?我有媒體來報導來瞭解部長你認識這個C教授嗎?"},{"start":12923.497,"end":12940.986,"text":"因為科別不太一樣阿你認不認識所以我知道這個人你知道這個人所以你認識他你知道習教授是誰我因為他上面也沒寫所以你剛剛說你知道這個人現在又說上面也沒寫到底知不知道我大概知道這樣的你知道這個人嗎你認不認識這個人"},{"start":12944.215,"end":12959.897,"text":"因為在不...因為不同的科而且距離算是...所以你認識嗎?你知道嗎?全部台大的人我大概都認識啊。哦所以你就認識嘛對不對?你就認識這位C教授嘛對不對?你認識這位C教授那你原本有掌握到這件事嗎?"},{"start":12961.482,"end":12989.438,"text":"我不知道你完全不知道那你在這件事裡面可以有什麼角色我們按規定按依法辦理依法辦理怎麼辦你我問你C教授他搶先申請退休打算保住退休金自請離職然後讓我想到這其實就跟我們當初勞動部霸凌情深案件謝宜榮前分署長一樣他想要在召開考記會之前自行請辭以免被免職或撤職"},{"start":12990.703,"end":13016.56,"text":"然後當時這個部長也是站在何沛山部長也是站在質詢台上說毫不知情喔那我想要請問一下這個C教授也同樣想要搶先申請退休的狀況您剛剛說依法辦理那依照你們的法這個規章要怎麼處理才能夠避免這個首先就是由雇主用雇主他可以依照他的行為去用針對性平三法的規定去處理"},{"start":13017.521,"end":13038.016,"text":"那這個是臺大醫院那因為臺大醫院他的職位應該是屬於臺大的老人部長你不覺得這事情其實很誇張嗎一個婦產科的權威性騷他的女醫生那他過去看過這麼多的女病患發生這個事情然後你認識這個人你覺得可以怎麼處理更好"},{"start":13039.523,"end":13063.228,"text":"我覺得依法辦理就最好我們的信憑三法過去在立法院也在上一屆很努力的工作好部長我跟你說其實這件事情還有最後後面還有一個很嚴重的部分是也根據媒體報導這個C教授竟然敢找總統府的資政求救並試圖施壓台大那不只拒絕悔過還找高層人士來幫腔來押案來吃案"},{"start":13064.161,"end":13074.882,"text":"那這也不是空穴來風喔這個我想就在C教授9月自請離職後他竟然轉往另外一個由總統府執政開設的醫院任職喔"},{"start":13076.741,"end":13092.322,"text":"你知道這個事嗎?部長有媒體上有看到你從媒體上面知道那這個事情走漏風聲之後這該醫院也偷偷的將這個C教授的照片和資料徹下看起來就是心虛或是確有歧視欲蓋彌彰的行為"},{"start":13094.324,"end":13121.433,"text":"那這次事件如果不是有什麼政壇大佬的媳婦啊或是臺大另外的婦產科的權威的媳婦啊企業家二代或是一些相對有一定政經地位的人都成為受害者喔加上臺大的這個校長陳文章能夠秉持他的專業良心拒絕關說我想這事也不了了之啊部長我覺得我們不應該每次都依賴這個運氣吧那我也想請問你知不知道這位總統府執政是誰"},{"start":13122.913,"end":13146.944,"text":"這位要幫他關說總統府執政是誰因為媒體沒有寫名字所以我不去猜測你不去猜測那你知不知道是誰媒體寫的是誰媒體寫的我我就說我不用不去猜測我是看他的行為對不對那我們想要知道這個總統府執政的話到底有沒有關說施壓這個調查我們應該怎麼做"},{"start":13151.258,"end":13153.88,"text":"這要由總統府來調查嗎?還是你們可以啟動調查?這個可能要從台灣大學那邊去了解他整個調查的過程當中所以會變成是教育部的責任嗎?會變成是教育部要叫台大去把它調查清楚嗎?還是衛福部可以有角色?"},{"start":13175.728,"end":13191.713,"text":"我們當然非常關心只要所有的工作醫療界的醫師醫藉福利界所有的工作同仁的尊嚴安全都跟我們當然都是我們關心的部長我想另外就進一步追問一下有一定的規範嘛"},{"start":13192.793,"end":13213.679,"text":"你知道他轉到另外一個婦產科的時候那個婦產科後來可能發現這個問題他就說他已經不讓這個醫師做內診了啦已經不讓這個醫師做內診那我想就是您是醫界的大佬也非常有經驗我想請問一下婦產科醫師不接觸內診的比例或是他不碰內診的比例可以有多高他比較屬這個專家在下面吧那我再問你對專家在下面那我再問你"},{"start":13226.858,"end":13246.969,"text":"國監署長你可以回答一下嗎?如果不做內診就大概不會去做毛片啦我想那個他大概就是那我再進一步追問你今天他婦產科醫師有人來可能看到這個人的名字來看醫生那他不做內診換另外一個醫生幫他做內診出了醫療行為出了問題那誰要負責?"},{"start":13252.989,"end":13277.167,"text":"這個做檢查的就就會檢查的一個報告嘛齁比如說我們做超音波檢查就超音波檢查的人報告以及他部長反正整件事情就是很荒謬啊我想要問你的事情是這件事情如果不是就這樣不了了之喔我想未來大家可能都要碰運氣喔看誰可以把這件事情爆出來所以我想要問你這個要怎麼樣在制度上做改善和預防"},{"start":13278.993,"end":13279.093,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":13300.185,"end":13328.611,"text":"如果台大醫院這個案例很簡單按照那個大院剛通過的性騷三法如果說是那個在台大醫院那邊如果說有任何一方是學生的話那就教育部那如果說其他的話那就性工法性工法那就勞動部阿所以衛福部都不管你們的事報告委那衛福部這邊我們現在目前就是有關於性騷三法三法裡面來如果不屬於性平不屬於校園不屬於職場就是我們主管的性騷防止法"},{"start":13329.601,"end":13357.979,"text":"所以他現在的狀況會是你們主管的嗎目前看起來如果說他對象是一般的病患有可能就是嘛對不對那你們現在可以做什麼他就進到申訴申訴調查署之後就會到縣市應該是臺北市政府的社會局他會做審議審議確定之後他就會做行政處罰那另外他的行為如果構成性騷25條就會進到司法調查我希望你們深入調查"},{"start":13359.06,"end":13386.721,"text":"這中間可能不只這六位是受害者這六位受害者他報出來只是真的是比較有辦法影響到大家關注度的我希望你們針對這個醫師好好的調查而且如果你說這個受害者這過程有碰到一般的病患但是又碰到有人施壓我也希望你們在施壓的那個人好好的調查有沒有這個狀況總統府執政到底是誰請你們給社會一個交代誰哪一個總統府執政這麼囂張"},{"start":13389.229,"end":13395.253,"text":"自己的人跑去這個性騷擾他還可以打電話想要押案、吃案太扯了吧然後聘用一個性騷擾的這個婦產科醫師然後跟他說我不讓他看內診很荒謬我們一定依法辦理好另外部長目前"},{"start":13411.847,"end":13427.962,"text":"醫美合法的管道有麻醉氾濫跟管制的問題非法的地下醫美問題也是很嚴重橋頭地檢署10月偵辦出高雄商辦內隱藏流動的地下醫美很多的藥品跟醫材都是大陸輸入的仿冒品"},{"start":13429.143,"end":13451.195,"text":"其實也顯示這段時間地下醫美在臺灣也逐步形成了產業鏈其實根據從醫界的側面瞭解地下醫美市場可能佔整個醫美市場近61%數字讓人震驚那也就是說這些無照服務等等的問題那簡單來講就是部長這個部分要怎麼加長管制避免很多的病患可能"},{"start":13452.472,"end":13477.429,"text":"跑去這些地方用到這些不合法的東西導致他們的權益受損好謝謝委員的擔心這也是讓如果以這樣的報道我們是不是令人憂心那這也是有虧了我們十幾年來從我們蘇昭偉我擔任醫師公會領導者的時候跟醫術師一直在對醫美方面做管理"},{"start":13478.229,"end":13489.874,"text":"不管是,讓他們有一個規則,不然他們也是做到很沒尊嚴的,我們老實說啦。做到怎樣很可憐,因為都醫師有時候...所以沒有,部長,因為時間有限,我還有很重要的要問你,所以你要怎麼做?"},{"start":13490.7,"end":13518.248,"text":"我們就好如果有違法的當然就要去查緝可是看起來你們執行很差欸我在下面下面再舉一個例子喔部長電子煙氾濫我們在過去很常常就是在質詢這件事情看起來衛福部沒有什麼管制的能力欸網路上隨便一搜就很多網站在那邊販售電子煙然後有熱心民眾收集了300個違法的販售網站的名單希望你們去封禁"},{"start":13519.208,"end":13544.496,"text":"這個部分部長知道嗎?部長就是沒有啊你可能不了解處理狀況喔確實有民眾向Google檢舉但最終的結果就是你只要在Google台灣分站的搜尋上面搜尋電子煙下方會有警語喔但他警語完之後他連接到這300家的名單網頁而且這些網站目前都還沒有被停止解析所以都連得上"},{"start":13545.316,"end":13549.469,"text":"那你知道這就是因為你們不積極處理本來是禁止名單現在變成購買推薦清單欸"},{"start":13553.779,"end":13577.87,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心那為這個我們在現在有跨部位的平台那其實我們也非常謝謝這個網路平台那我們有親國溝通所以做一層二層三層的一個屏蔽跟移除但看起來現在就是沒有啊而且他們還發展成LINE客服很多都是重複的ID不同的網站同一個LINE客服代表它已經是集團化的經營那你們要怎麼做"},{"start":13578.973,"end":13597.637,"text":"我想或者我們就是跟他如果真的是違法我們當然是依法看法那你什麼時候這300家你會禁掉?資料給我們我們來跟那人家已經檢舉過你們了你們都沒有看嗎?有我們已經禁了蠻多啦所以是不是委員你所說的這300家我們還上網查就是可以進去欸我們盡力來處理嘿"},{"start":13602.214,"end":13620.506,"text":"請你們不要再這麼鬆散,這個問題很嚴重。好,謝謝主席。我們一定會努力,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝六位,謝謝部長。來,我們接處理臨時提案。一共有七案,請一併先讀。"},{"start":13621.468,"end":13646.417,"text":"第一案要求衛生福利部應重啟職場霸凌調查建立基層部署願意坦言真話保障其權益之調查方式與機制針對遭檢舉涉嫌霸凌之各級主管如衛生福利部主秘劉玉娟長期照顧司司長駐建方等人進行完整詳細之調查並公開完整調查報告提案人委員陳昭芝、蘇星泉、邱振鈞"},{"start":13647.237,"end":13652.483,"text":"第二案,鑒於衛生福利部發生諸多職場霸凌事件．然而衛生福利部前後兩次記者會對外說明之職場霸凌調查結果．不但有為詳盡調查之問題．更有為特定主管層及官員袒護卸責之嫌．原要求衛生福利部應於本日下午午時前．將目前之調查報告．"},{"start":13669.341,"end":13680.542,"text":"提送至立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會外．並應公開至衛生福利部網站供國人檢視提案人委員陳昭芝、邱振軍、蘇清泉第三案"},{"start":13681.987,"end":13708.462,"text":"臺灣面臨少子化的今天兒童醫學的主要目的就是保護已出生的孩童減少孩童的折損因此兒童醫學最重要的方向應該是確保18歲以下的兒少族群健康或得到良好治療原要求政府選定具代表性兒童醫院在旗下成立兒童健康研究中心作為兒童健康提升與醫療研究的平台以顯著降低兒童患病的風險"},{"start":13709.222,"end":13735.516,"text":"提案人委員蘇清泉、陳昭芝、盧憲一第四案一目前除在執行特管辦法第二十五條有規定的八項手術麻醉資格有所規範限之外其他的光電、醫美或整形手術並沒有規範原要求衛福部比照醫療體系針對所有醫美涉及麻醉項目納入規範提案人委員蘇清泉、陳昭芝、盧憲一第五案"},{"start":13737.315,"end":13760.525,"text":"考量衛福部內部管理標準合理化後．會讓往後的施政及業務背後．極有可能仍會有數不盡遭霸凌的人血饅頭存在．是以決議衛福部應限期於一週內．完成重啟調查並對外公開．藉此挽救殆盡之公信力．提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、陳昭芝第6案．"},{"start":13761.105,"end":13765.31,"text":"考量國家財政上受胎兒生產數下降將對國庫有減少健保支出的連帶影響因此政府應考量損益關係再益助並補足相當經費加大辦理對孕婦的經濟支持措施是以特決議衛福部應限期辦理"},{"start":13779.608,"end":13799.259,"text":"含產檢、計程車、嬰兒用品和孕婦用品在內之早期、中期及晚期懷孕券補助政策研議作業且當中應有延用至產後一年的規劃事後限期於二個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、陳昭芝"},{"start":13801.64,"end":13814.011,"text":"第7案中華民國多囊腎腎友協會已正式決議支持推動主管機關就腎臟活體捐贈資格因自目前五清等以內血清或配偶放寬參照單臟活體捐贈五清等因清之規範"},{"start":13818.315,"end":13840.162,"text":"是以考量衛福部應積極參採此等意見．並促進患者能速回歸正常人生．原要求衛福部限期於一個月內啟動研議及修正作業．事後於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、陳昭芝、盧憲一、黃建豪宣讀完畢好,請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見"},{"start":13850.408,"end":13870.975,"text":"主席以及部長還有各位委員大家好衛福部在這邊對於這一個臨時提案有關霸凌的部分有三點說明第一個我們提案的文字我們必須要說其實還是有部分有斷章取義的問題比如說像剛剛說什麼自殺他殺等這些"},{"start":13872.595,"end":13887.52,"text":"我們都有已經還原他當時的這一個脈絡所以這個基本上恐怕還是不宜另外第二個對於判斷到底是否霸凌與否我們都是基於市政跟你相關的訪談我們剛剛已經說有96位的這一個同仁那麼這一個過程當中其實訪談內容我們也都希望匿名"},{"start":13898.283,"end":13900.105,"text":"除非有非常有力的新事實、新證據"},{"start":13916.141,"end":13942.068,"text":"除非有非常有力的新事實、新證據否則在這樣目前已經經過詳細的調查以及訪談之後的這個結論基本上我們是否還是建議可能要尊重這個專業調查委員會的一個調查但是我們可以在一週內我們就整個相關的這個程序我們內部我們來做相關的這個檢討以上四點來跟這個會上做說明謝謝"},{"start":13946.912,"end":13950.937,"text":"陳委員,你要表達嗎?有喔,一定來,謝謝主席。理事長,我剛剛早上沒有跟你拍桌子。"},{"start":13960.168,"end":13984.467,"text":"你竟然說這個一個疑似親身的案子是操作不樂建議這個刻意的去操作我可是跟家屬聯繫過了家屬基本上他們當時是要做是要投訴的但他們覺得不可能有效不可能當時但是現在他覺得有人要替他們討公道了所以基本上"},{"start":13985.468,"end":13991.231,"text":"先生跟三個孩子都希望能夠有機會幫媽媽幫妻子討公道李次你提到剛剛你提到102年如果他有所謂你講的那個症狀猶豫症為什麼為什麼他的主管還繼續在職場霸凌他讓他做了一個不可逆的最後的一個最痛苦的決定"},{"start":14012.11,"end":14022.337,"text":"你當時有沒有去調查他旁邊你這一回有沒有去調查旁邊的同事們有沒有到他那一位只要聽到聽到留意卷就會都說都會顫抖的那位同事我你們在兩次報告第一次報告以後我丟出錄音帶拼命叫同事去親身自殺你還要幫他找全部的影帶出來"},{"start":14038.848,"end":14062.163,"text":"他平常不這麼講他平常講的話很多他每次都跟人家親生自殺你是聽當事人解釋嗎你是我要跟你講你剛剛講一百零二年那個東西你知道是誰調查了嗎就是現在的當事人調查的就是劉宇軒組長跟他信賴的這個他的心腹賴科長調查的做的報告你現在拿當事人的報告來告訴我你這個講法才是二十傷害啊"},{"start":14069.295,"end":14074.717,"text":"我正在邀請啊家屬準備帶他朋友到我辦公室來拜訪啊我順便召開個記者會啊你第一次報告我丟出那個錄音帶還要檢舉人同意你們說錄音帶還會斷章取義啊就聽得很清楚啊拼命叫人要親身親身啊然後第二次出來以後我可以做一個說明嗎你最好好好說明不要避重就輕不然我真的浪費時間"},{"start":14105.469,"end":14121.785,"text":"報告委員,三個重點第一個,您剛剛說我們的一個瞭解這位同仁他是102年開始有做相關的一些的一個就診記錄那相關的我想如果說委員需要的話我們可以把他你這次調查有去訪談他家屬嗎?訪談他當時的同事嗎?你怎麼調查的?"},{"start":14128.615,"end":14144.845,"text":"對啊!你就是拿他當時的報告啊!那個報告就是有問題啊!到今天才會在這個霸凌案出現以後這麼多人跟我投訴啊!對於台北業務組的人,劉玉娟的上任是個噩夢啊!你調查了誰?你告訴我你調查了誰?"},{"start":14155.77,"end":14178.75,"text":"先跟委員做個報告就是組密這個案子成立的時候當初因為是屬於業務組所以我們當初問卷的部分是健保署的業務組跟我們的社保司所以業務組這個範圍是不是請健保署來先來做個說明 謝謝"},{"start":14183.499,"end":14193.591,"text":"那時候他還沒有再到健保署去年才到健保署我想這是兩件事要把它分開來討論一下第一個就是您在提到的這個109年6月吧那個可能輕生這個"},{"start":14200.66,"end":14228.293,"text":"他其實106人到109人的整個過程其實大家可以來了解大家是誰為什麼家屬現在他的同事認為不是這樣那沒關係因為他原來有憂鬱症所以你認為就可以加以霸凌嗎他其實中間也有一直在休假啦那這個部分是一件事情我們可以來檢討那他是109人6月吧那第二件事情若不是你在調查過程那麼不公平那麼沒有真相"},{"start":14229.612,"end":14247.861,"text":"因為我們是在調查當時劉組長的時候他是109年的3月就任所以前面其實他都在這位同仁其實都在請假如果要檢討是不是應該檢討102年到109年這個當中他的一個狀況是怎麼樣這個102年到109年如果家屬真的是覺得有一些我們好好的來針對"},{"start":14259.673,"end":14275.594,"text":"則對此做檢討。至於說職場霸凌這個部份又是後面發展的一些事情,那這個我們另外一件來調查：霸凌有各種形式的,從前面開始：那我的意思,因為overlap：第一種屬相科長"},{"start":14277.637,"end":14293.599,"text":"可能只有兩三個月啊但是這中間你重啟調查重啟調查你把當事人當年109年是當現在的當事人去做的調查報告你把他當作而且現在的對象還是同一個人你把他的報告拿來當作你的報告嗎"},{"start":14294.861,"end":14300.226,"text":"你有重新去調查嗎?你沒有去調查嗎?我知道你沒有去調查嗎?人家隱忍很久。隱忍很久。看到現在有人跟一般他們沒有公道了。我認知這是一個新的事證。我們來做調查。"},{"start":14313.559,"end":14319.005,"text":"我第一次報告我給你新的事證就是錄音帶啊,你們忽視它啊,覺得那個錄音帶不太像是一樣。然後我只好第二次報告我再丟啊,再丟副文給你看啊。那你,對對對,你這個部分就是一個新的事證。它不是只有它一個人喔,那個環境很多人喔。"},{"start":14335.762,"end":14342.923,"text":"這個部分我們來調查沒問題從102到103到底發生了什麼事那就是重新調查嘛但是我不能全部都已經調查過再去調查已經調查的部分剛剛回答主秘只能限月就沒限月但是他還在主秘的位置上他未來可以看到很多資料他可以秋後算上只要有相關的都不會被看到大家人事處處長剛剛有講得很明你要保障他的職位是嗎"},{"start":14364.967,"end":14388.519,"text":"他的職位是一人之下、萬人之下嗎?沒有,我說實在,我到衛福部跟誰都沒有關係。都跟我沒有什麼那個...我們都是非常...那天我叫他上來,你馬上跟我說他很認真。認真跟他怕有什麼關係?不是不是,因為你上一次第一次提的時候,你說他連...上面寫的是年輕啦,很有權力。那個是另外一個檢舉案,但是我已經收到。所以那個時候的確那個字不是在形容他啦。我是這樣子而已啦。"},{"start":14394.482,"end":14406.676,"text":"那一篇不是形容他,但是主秘有主秘的檢舉者,所以我後來才請他上台那後來也列入調查啦,也列入調查啦所以我就是兩岸都要,兩岸一個就是說你現在的報告我要看到內容你現在的報告我要看到,然後你要重啟報告我變成我在調查,我幫你調查喔"},{"start":14415.185,"end":14431.612,"text":"我們第一案跟第二案第一案跟第二案先保留看看瞧瞧看要怎麼寫我們第三案來處理後面還有案子趕快第三案第三案行政當然沒有意見應該還好吧你有意見來"},{"start":14443.987,"end":14468.722,"text":"對,就是說在委員提案裡面是原案要求政府的政府研議選定具代表兒童醫院因為這需要跟各個五家兒童醫院這邊做一個討論所以在這邊只建議就是新增兩個字以上好那同意同意那第三案就這樣修改通過第四案"},{"start":14475.48,"end":14497.294,"text":"第三…第三這邊是不是也請教這邊就是演繹納入規範因為這個地方要做一些相對上面的討論然後全部納入的時候其實在我們覺得還是在過去的規定裡面要重新研討怎麼樣去落實這邊才是重點所以在這邊的話是建議增新再兩次演繹"},{"start":14498.895,"end":14519.197,"text":"嚴議納入規範．針對所有依美涉及麻醉項目嚴議納入規範．嚴議好OK那就通過來第五案陳慶輝第五案基本上我跟第一案第二案的意思是差不多的剛剛所有諮詢的委員幾乎沒有人對於這份報告信服"},{"start":14520.178,"end":14544.925,"text":"裡面實際有文字大概是四頁但提到我們檢這個調查的內容不到一頁大家對於最後送出來的處分也是一頭霧水完全不知道發生什麼事對於這些中階的主管公務員們為什麼會被調職一無所知然後反而是接獲許許多多陳情人的這些司長們"},{"start":14546.485,"end":14564.761,"text":"那是記過然後又說沒有霸凌的事實也說只是管理不當那我覺得我第5案跟第1案、第2案一起保留好了那第5案也跟1、2、5保留齁來第6案"},{"start":14572.492,"end":14576.803,"text":"第2案OK嗎?OKOK謝謝然後就沒有意見通過第7案"},{"start":14578.322,"end":14601.838,"text":"第7案的部分的話是不是可以容委員這邊允許我們是啟動研議作業因為干帳基本上面他有再生能力所以放寬這邊產生的倫理疑慮比較小甚至一個人只有兩顆因為一個人只有兩顆的狀況下面的時候就要放寬殷勤這部分可能會有交易假結婚的這些倫理上面的考量"},{"start":14602.719,"end":14629.509,"text":"研議這邊其實是可以啟動我們啟動研議那要把修正作業刪除對研議作業這邊但是我會提實際上也是因為這些病友團體他們就是陳情有這個需求因為他們很年輕嘛二三十歲要洗腎一輩子但其實他們只要有腎臟移植的話他們可以跟一般人一樣出國旅遊他們現在都整個人生有六七十年在洗腎"},{"start":14630.663,"end":14659.015,"text":"有,因為這個其實在契捐中心這邊也有收到那個相同的那個協會這邊有來文所以我們其實本來就預備就實施說要做一些溝通因為這一個肝臟就是有再生能力的這一塊所以他在規範上面稍微比較放寬陰莖的這部分的倫理考量比較少然後腎臟因為就如同我剛才講一個人只有兩顆的狀況下面的時候那給了給了"},{"start":14659.975,"end":14661.336,"text":"為什麼會有這樣子陳情也是實際上他們"},{"start":14684.512,"end":14695.56,"text":"是有這個需求所以我覺得我們可以改成一個月內研議那也可以參考這個世界各國的標準那把修正作業刪除謝謝就是一個月內啟動研議那修正這邊就拿掉啟動研議作業嘛對不對是這樣嘛好那這樣通過"},{"start":14709.645,"end":14711.608,"text":"好 現在我們休息20分鐘 請做討論"},{"start":14722.617,"end":14747.857,"text":"跟那個委員會議報告就125就是有關我們調查報告要不要公布的這個部分我以一個議事單位我在這邊稍微做一個說明第一個就是說沒有我馬上就好OK現在是這樣子當初這個霸凌案件會不會成立霸凌"},{"start":14752.467,"end":14772.435,"text":"請給我兩分鐘就好在霸凌案件這個事件我們會認定的時候是根據提供的事證不管是媒體或是委員或是這個部長像第一個是事證第二個是同仁的約談那同仁的約談跟高安委"},{"start":14773.436,"end":14793.636,"text":"剛剛委員也看到了大概平均每個當事人都有接近10人次的那個月而且這是非常深度的約談我今天如果把調查報告公佈出來的話同仁當初來的時候他希望是利民因為是利民所以他講的案件是非常的深入"},{"start":14794.477,"end":14808.698,"text":"包括 what kind of situation he is in, 包括他是在什麼樣的情境下遭受到一些管理的行為。再加上他目前的身心狀況是怎麼樣。如果我再怎麼樣去匿名化。"},{"start":14809.719,"end":14830.378,"text":"其實按圖所譯都可以在蛛絲馬跡中現有的同仁還是會受到一些驚恐所以我們是認為說在這些深度的我們的調查報告確實是不宜公佈但是而且我們也怕一公佈比照勞動部的規格就可以了"},{"start":14836.424,"end":14850.221,"text":"而勞動部當時的第二個報告他其實第一份報告也上去了只是說他的解讀沒有那麼多事實他解讀都不相關但是他還是把資料完整的上去了不要是重啟整個判斷就完全不一樣從不相關變成直接相關"},{"start":14852.516,"end":14874.494,"text":"沒關係 我本身現在只是在想說同仁在約談的那個過程中確實是有這樣的那個心聲那其實這次的調查報告有很多就是根據同仁的約談而且現在大部分的同仁都還在部裡面部裡面服務我以上先做這樣子的說明謝謝"},{"start":14881.513,"end":14906.702,"text":"主席我們要投票要表決要表決名字都可以遮起來這個比照勞動部的規格去各自啊這個報告一個A4新聞稿子跟這個報告根本業務報告啊今天根本不是調查結果報告是業務報告啊"},{"start":14911.343,"end":14912.445,"text":"我相信委員已經跟我們一樣是希望就是說來保護同仁"},{"start":14927.066,"end":14948.343,"text":"我相信一定都是這樣的一個心理那整個這個過程我想這一個確實好不容易其實大家都已經有這個信賴我覺得如果說就因為這樣來中斷這樣的一個信任真的我想對老師說你們不給看然後又都說沒事都沒事但是我一直提出心事這樣給你剛剛那部長有說啊就是委員你剛剛有提到另外的那個部分我們"},{"start":14955.779,"end":14983.224,"text":"你為什麼不這次就把它做好了呢?把個資蓋掉你不會不懂吧?把個資蓋掉到底這個被控制辦事做了什麼事?講了什麼話?報告委員這不是只有個資蓋掉的問題而已這裡面其實還有牽涉到就是說你現在目前到底是在認知哪個單位跟這些其實確實很容易被人家暗圖所記而我想就是說我們不希望透過這樣一個結果讓同仁也再受到二次傷害"},{"start":14985.305,"end":15006.232,"text":"你剛剛講說這個親生事件是這個不見樂意不樂見操作你就傷害了這個死者家屬你就二度傷害了他們報告委員我想我們這個他是跟我有聯繫的如果哪一天我再到你面前呢對如果說有這一個所謂的新事實新證據的話就這一個部分我們當然可以來那個啊"},{"start":15010.543,"end":15033.483,"text":"但是我必須要強調 報告委員我真的要強調一點就是說這個是整個同仁他們願意來老實說我們我作為這個主席其實事實上我對同仁也有這一個有保護的義務啦他們都不願意匿名那你現在在這種情況之下他們都希望匿名來勇敢站出來我覺得"},{"start":15034.943,"end":15038.185,"text":"我必須要先說一下因為同仁反壇真的講得很深入他把什麼樣在處理的行為中間都那個言重你結果你的判決這麼輕"},{"start":15065.038,"end":15071.635,"text":"結果你的結果很輕啊都輕輕帶過都沒事啊沒有就是中整所有的必要的那你們越講就越離譜啦"},{"start":15073.735,"end":15100.373,"text":"那麼深入然後有很多不可以講的然後最後結果你們的調查結果我真的要誤中但是也誤枉我覺得這個真的要我覺得這個前提表決表決我想因為我當過立委我知道立委都是有義務去了解內情而且大家都是德高望重也會知所輕重影像質感丟給立委怎麼辦"},{"start":15101.333,"end":15129.17,"text":"我意思是說還是在野黨的立委沒有現在這樣因為他們很擔心是我們完全的把識別化盡量識別的好一點然後送給委員這樣子去掉一些然後送給委員委員你很清楚這判斷適不適合因為你如果真的對整個大幅公告可能真的有很多暗圖捨棄這個部分那我相信委員都是能夠去判斷你要做"},{"start":15130.445,"end":15159.304,"text":"你們保護被霸凌者所以我的建議如果你們看了以後還不滿意那再下一次再來再要求我們都樂意部長你的意思就是說你處理一下然後你們會把資料給我們看對嗎我建議我們建議每一個送到委員的辦公室我們就親自我們會把這個送到每一個委員的辦公室最好我們親自再去報告或者你們有什麼疑問都可以當場討論我就先在每一個委員的辦公室先處理"},{"start":15160.625,"end":15181.827,"text":"那應該你就可以看到所有的詳情但是你們就會去判斷啊這要怎麼處理還到那個受訪者 這樣我們就我們比較謹慎的那如果第二部你們第二階段如果你還是覺得這樣還是需要怎麼樣的話那我們再來怎麼做下一步都沒關係好不好那至於102人到109人那件事情"},{"start":15182.668,"end":15211.16,"text":"我個人 如果 那這另外我們來調查沒關係涉及人命的是真的要證實那好好來立案來立案調查好不好家屬在期待沒關係我們家屬只要有期待家屬不敢找你們只敢找我們沒關係我想我也是一個醫療人員我是我們一定是關心弱勢或者是受害者我根本心跟你是一樣的所以這個部分我們另外重啟調查來調查好不好然後這一個部分我們"},{"start":15212.16,"end":15229.757,"text":"從此調查是在台北業務組的那段時間有多少離職的降調的那些都是徹底去調查都沒關係因為我覺得這樣如果家屬只有需要這樣調查是他心安我們就做到這是102到109這個過程因為那個紀元在109年離"},{"start":15235.943,"end":15247.007,"text":"離世之前,其實一直都是在請假,因為他的長官也叫他不要上班,比較好,其實是這樣,但是我現在講的只是說沒關係,這個我們來調查,然後我們這個調查報告去世沒話以後,三天以後就開始到各個委員辦公室去報告"},{"start":15260.251,"end":15281.166,"text":"那你們再去判斷要不要走下一步或者是覺得這樣子的處罰這樣的處理就已經得當了那我想這樣才有辦法保護大家而且說實在的啦我們認得就像我高中練三年只有一次因為有人要來我家買東西我慢了十分鐘出去"},{"start":15282.168,"end":15292.68,"text":"我就全情的全情講就沒有了我到一生都覺得很遺憾所以做了三十幾年的公務員委員被寄深屆一生為國家在努力齁"},{"start":15294.153,"end":15321.865,"text":"有時候我們誤中誤完其實也是記過或者是記一個那個在對一個很努力的工作人員是已經非常大的一個紀錄了啦都是終身的紀錄啦你即使後面再記功記什麼他就是被記過過他就是被記過深切所以我們要好好的來思考怎麼樣做最適當讓我們的每一位同仁從基層到主管都能夠好好的為國家做事情"},{"start":15323.226,"end":15335.396,"text":"所以我的建議就是這樣子,不曉得各位委員能不能接受我們先按照部長你講的這個方式先進行,如果不滿意的話我們還是要提案一定要說明到大家滿意按照部長的指示,我們就是由同仁侵蝕我們這一個去識別化到有提案的委員這邊來進行報告"},{"start":15348.407,"end":15375.701,"text":"另外就是我們認為不足的部分,因為明代的證據永遠比你們多,就這樣,因為他不敢,他怕你秋後...如果那些證據是超越我們調查的內容,就算新市政府,我們再加進去再調查,好不好?我們這個調查角度還是存在啊,我們會存在,繼續調查,調查到水後石出。說實在,我想大家都是很願意接受考驗的啦,因為大家都為國家立法而已嘛。"},{"start":15378.789,"end":15392.585,"text":"部長那在慎重起見齁你這個八個案子你還是自己內部再重啓調查一次吧部長我們一直都正確調查其實剛剛劉建國委員也對於這件事情質詢非常久好像不是有提案的委員而已吧"},{"start":15393.325,"end":15418.832,"text":"因為大家急著要看報告所以先幾天之內先送給大家看報告齁如果覺得還是不滿意那再走下一步啦好不好不然的話沒關係齁所有委員都可以好沒問題都沒問題我想不管是哪一黨的委員應該都很關心所以我們一定去說明如果說明到各位覺得說新的施政是你無法cover的"},{"start":15419.805,"end":15433.134,"text":"部長我先確認一下剛剛這樣決議的話是要全部未還的委員給還是今天非未還給全部未還的委員給那也要再確定因為剛剛你們有提到那個調查的時候很多"},{"start":15435.015,"end":15463.797,"text":"公共體系的人事實上如金公之鳥也要確保真的如果要有密件出來的話也請大家刻尊遵守要用密件不得在外偷走否則的話事實上我相信因為我以前也擔任過調查委員有時候對於他們願意站出來去舉報去說明的時候同時他也是承擔了很大的心理壓力可是當如果你們只是去各自有些脈絡是沒有辦法去的話有時候搞不好又我們是不是又製造另外一場傷害"},{"start":15464.718,"end":15464.739,"text":"報告。"},{"start":15465.959,"end":15491.684,"text":"所以我想我們就要親自到委員辦公室那我相信委員就好像我們當時我當立委的時候其實也有很多這種狀況阿都去各處我們去看說實在連copy都不連copy都沒辦法copy我們只是記在腦海裡面這樣子那所以先這樣處理如果大家覺得有需要走第二步那隨時或者是整個證據超過了我們cover的範圍我們再繼續來調查好不好"},{"start":15501.724,"end":15525.364,"text":"他們的調查報告有好幾十頁然後是我們是要求要交給提案委員不要給助理啦因為助理又怕洩漏出去怕對公職人員這些人又這些工人又造成二次傷害我希望做到來來來你叫人事處長這樣蓋"},{"start":15527.697,"end":15544.395,"text":"原為建立基層部署願意坦言真話保障其權益之調查方式與機制針對遭檢舉涉案霸凌之各級主管兩位司長等"},{"start":15547.604,"end":15571.05,"text":"請二部去世白話後一週內侵持調查報告向提案委員報告說明三個案都一樣要給全部的慰安委員一個一個報告你要講好勒"},{"start":15573.928,"end":15583.552,"text":"好啦一週應該可以啦齁十五個喔好"},{"start":15598.983,"end":15619.434,"text":"對沒錯好啦那就兩週啦兩週來來來兩週內侵蝕調查報告向衛防委員衛防委員會的委員報告本人本人不要不要給助理啦不要啦這樣不好"},{"start":15621.551,"end":15644.176,"text":"現在可以嗎?陳教授委員就盡量挪出時間給我陳教授委員可以嗎?陳教授委員這樣可以嗎?好 那就三個案都照這樣處理好 那現在改一下喔 改一下齁好 臨時提案全部處理完畢齁那我們現在休息現在吃飯吃一半"},{"start":15654.042,"end":15656.964,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15677.551,"end":15694.684,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":16731.089,"end":16749.035,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會,我們節省時間本委員會的也要縮短時間啦王毓民委員質詢好,謝謝主席,我們是不是有請部長委員好"},{"start":16756.789,"end":16776.556,"text":"部長好,剛剛這個提案討論的時候大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告主要是你們精簡的太厲害了你們剛剛說你們有幾十頁的報告結果今天送出來的就是六頁那這六頁當中其實都看不出這個過程"},{"start":16777.896,"end":16795.208,"text":"也看不了事實只有你們的結論所以當然外界對於這樣的一份報告就是高度的存疑不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嗎我現在以下就要問你們你們這整個的調查過程第一件事情"},{"start":16796.289,"end":16824.708,"text":"你們總共請了四位外部委員但是你要調查八個案子請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談每一個人員訪談的時間有多久來請回答好我請那個周吉仁或處長誰要回答這邊跟那個委員報告願意受訪的同仁每個人至少15分鐘"},{"start":16826.483,"end":16854.605,"text":"這是一才15分鐘至少15分鐘至少15分鐘有幾位平均每個人下來都有10個人次因為8個案子吧96人還是人次人人次所以總共訪談幾位總共訪談96位96位這不是人次嗎對96人嘛對一個人15分鐘至少15分鐘那最多呢"},{"start":16856.158,"end":16870.713,"text":"最多不好意思因為我最多其實我們都盡量讓他們講應該是大概15到30分鐘而且還有"},{"start":16873.863,"end":16897.24,"text":"委員是不是允許我先這樣做那個報告到時候到您那個辦公室的時候都會都會有一些相關的資料給您看謝謝我要問這個問題就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真確實的調查因為調查的過程非常的重要從今天六月的報告大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情"},{"start":16897.74,"end":16921.489,"text":"所以那個調查的過程你有沒有足夠的時間去做讓這個當事人可以做足夠的反應其實這個是非常的關鍵所以因為這個報告大家都看不到事實所以大家才會有這麼多的一個疑問另外一個是你八案當中只有三案成立五案沒有成立報告當中也沒有去載明"},{"start":16922.549,"end":16928.314,"text":"不成立的原因為何所以你這份報告坦白講簡化成這樣子難怪委員這麼不滿意啊因為打不殺殺看到你這個只有懲處但根本發生什麼事情大家還是完全得不到資訊啊那你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者這個我當然贊成"},{"start":16942.546,"end":16948.713,"text":"因為他們是受害者他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了但是他為什麼要出來檢舉因為忍無可忍而檢舉之後他要的是一個什麼是一個公平正義是希望衛福部還他一個公道"},{"start":16957.823,"end":16972.149,"text":"讓他以後可以安心在這個職場不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待甚至是霸凌所以如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道的話以後會造成什麼寒產效應"},{"start":16973.223,"end":16988.031,"text":"就是申訴了也沒有用啊今天花那麼大的力氣輿論討論這麼久結果我去申訴了這當中這五案我特別關切的是這五案為什麼不成立坦白講申訴要很大的勇氣"},{"start":16989.071,"end":17009.167,"text":"但是如果用這麼大的勇氣然後也訪談了然後也講了結果最後你就告訴當事人說不成立你知道那個會有多挫折過去我也在地方服務過我處理過這個性騷擾相關的案件你知道那個有的當事人當他被宣告他性騷擾不成立的時候他憂鬱症的開始"},{"start":17011.989,"end":17037.311,"text":"因為他覺得我都這麼鼓起勇氣跟你政府單位申訴結果調查人調查完之後說不成立簡簡單單說不成立三個字他就要痛苦一輩子所以我要提醒部長的事提醒次長的事我們是應該要站在這一些申訴者這一方當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後才反映出這個事情的時候我贊成你剛剛講的勿往勿縱"},{"start":17039.315,"end":17062.071,"text":"但是請你更站在一個每一個鼓起勇氣已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想他今天是鼓起多大的勇氣才敢講這件事就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他這個我贊成因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話你要知道那個後座力有多強沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症"},{"start":17065.731,"end":17084.105,"text":"因為他覺得無望了他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了結果是被打回票請問兩位你們有掌握這五案不成立的理由你們覺得真的是充分嗎?這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎?我要你們特別關注的是不成案的這五個案子你們每一個都有仔細的了解嗎?"},{"start":17089.746,"end":17115.243,"text":"總召還有報告委員我想分兩點來說明報告委員其實我之前我在台中也當過社會局長您剛剛所說的像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些基本上也是我的業務範圍相關的這個報告其實就像您所說的其實如果沒有成立的話對於這一個提起的人就基本上這事實上都是另外一個打擊所以我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情"},{"start":17115.963,"end":17130.712,"text":"同時也要利用這個機會就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道來建立我們的這個資產環境這是第一個重點第二個重點我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛也已經有一個決議就是說我們到時候會將報告"},{"start":17133.573,"end":17161.661,"text":"帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證"},{"start":17162.421,"end":17178.036,"text":"所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些"},{"start":17179.257,"end":17202.483,"text":"今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎"},{"start":17207.644,"end":17226.371,"text":"禮職的部分有嗎?短調的呢?有,還有另外一個就是說我們時間甚至已經利用到晚上還有假日我們也都讓委員也都有請委員拜託委員他們前來所以真的是每一個每分每秒我們都最善用最最大的這一個我要求的就是一定是要"},{"start":17227.151,"end":17240.278,"text":"符合真相沒有掩蓋也沒有偏袒這樣的一個調查報告才能讓大家信服所以你們後續提供這個完整調查報告我們會仔細再來看另外一個你們這一次的霸凌案的處置不如勞動部的2.0版你們看起來你們那個標準其實是不一致的在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌你們強迫深蹲間報告不是霸凌"},{"start":17256.368,"end":17268.964,"text":"然後用言語去叫人家輕聲的這個這個只有深屆兩支那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一支我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼"},{"start":17271.345,"end":17290.019,"text":"你們最終做出這個懲戒是由什麼樣的單位做出來的?是人事單位嗎?不是,報告委員,其實誠如我剛剛所說就是說我們在這裡面這也是調查委員?不可能吧?報告委員,這就是調查委員你調查委員有是熟悉公務體系啊?你不是說是專家學者嗎?外部的專家學者怎麼來告訴你你那個懲處的那個範圍?這個要你們自己有意見啊?"},{"start":17296.764,"end":17307.756,"text":"這個委員他們基本上整個調查程序裡面都有按照他的所收集的主客觀的資料還有訪談的資料之後然後做出一個整個做出一個裁決。稱處怎麼會是委員來建議呢?"},{"start":17311.981,"end":17318.349,"text":"他們是調查報告出來之後然後經過兩道程序第一個就是由我親自主持跟學術專家這邊我們經過詳細的討論之後然後做出了一個整個這一個相關的決議這是第一個重點第二個決議完之後還要送我們的安全防護衛生小組來做審理"},{"start":17330.563,"end":17346.736,"text":"要記小過、要記深切、要不要大過、要不要降調這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權他們是建議完之後經過我剛剛說的安全衛生小組最後考機會那你們沒有看到你們這一個懲處的標準是不一嗎因為它的情節輕重不一啊"},{"start":17348.001,"end":17360.828,"text":"所以你說教人家輕聲的這種言語的不當是比較輕的然後深蹲是比較重的我們經過調查裡面已經有說就是說這一個他所謂的所謂的所謂的輕聲等等是指"},{"start":17364.67,"end":17382.83,"text":"市長讓我提醒你齁如果言語會去霸凌別人的人這個是有他性格上面的問題不會是只有一次也不會是單一事件而剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來在他擔任組長期間"},{"start":17384.915,"end":17405.445,"text":"也有同樣的一個情況那會不會所以我就懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰嗎如果說他只是突然冒出口一個人不會這樣子他不會突然蹦出這樣的話那麼嚴厲的叫人家輕聲這樣的話那那是跟他原來的那個性格某一個部分是有關係的所以你們真的是有鉅細靡遺的去訪談嗎就像我們看到勞動部的謝義勇"},{"start":17411.377,"end":17438.646,"text":"他就是藏起來就是這個樣子啊他不會突然這樣直接講一句話去霸凌別人沒有這件事情他大概他的風格就會是這個樣子所以謝用一開始也說無姓員工跟他完全沒有關係他說完全沒有關係還要請律師發聲明稿結果勞動部第二次部長下令要嚴審調查之後翻轉了而且是大逆轉有關因為是從工作上面的壓迫一直下來的"},{"start":17440.799,"end":17470.074,"text":"所以我要提醒部長跟次長就是說在處理這件事情你們一定是要放開你心中的包袱一定當然我知道衛福部裡面很多一級主管大家都很辛苦這是一回事但是如果他在過程當中他有不當的管理壓迫甚至是霸凌然後讓底下的員工更辛苦這他就不適合這個主管他也不適合主管是要帶領的不是去壓迫下面的員工的完全同意"},{"start":17470.114,"end":17491.326,"text":"所以你這個一定是要切割開來處理但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容你們就沒有一致的標準你們的輕重坦白講是沒有一致的標準跟勞動部的比起來你們是比較輕你們是輕輕放下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌"},{"start":17492.967,"end":17514.102,"text":"還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反省我同意同意同意同意同意好"},{"start":17515.223,"end":17538.376,"text":"那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝"},{"start":17541.552,"end":17566.209,"text":"謝謝王委員 謝謝部長 來接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席喔主席不好意思先會議詢問一下今天那個衛福部來的官員長照司司長有來嗎"},{"start":17570.729,"end":17596.764,"text":"長照室司長有來嗎?司長請假請問主席有準嗎?所以現在是怎麼樣?行政部門報名單不管主席準不準只要你有報名單連主席都不知道就可以不用來我要先確定一下規矩嘛現在的規矩到底是怎麼樣?"},{"start":17598.007,"end":17604.07,"text":"是我們委員會開會的時候行政部門只要報名單不用經過主席同意想不來就不來是這樣嗎社保司的司長有來嗎現在是代理司長所以現在的代理司長是本來的副司長嗎"},{"start":17628.922,"end":17655.121,"text":"那本來的市長勒?所以他先調理社保師?所以今天也不用來?那個我對主席很尊重啦只是有的時候主席你人太好啦你真的人太好他們也沒有經過你的同意說不來就不來我某個程度上也是幫主席打抱不平啦"},{"start":17656.842,"end":17668.924,"text":"我希望以後衛福部的是不是要準價是不是要先請問主席這個基本的態度應該要建立吧來有請部長"},{"start":17675.372,"end":17700.983,"text":"衛福部發聲霸凌案讓大家都很痛心早上執行的人非常的多我們先回顧一下當初賴清德總統也好卓榮泰院長也好跟台灣社會都做出了莊嚴的承諾甚至卓榮泰還說什麼卓榮泰說他要求各部門機關了解內部有沒有霸凌有一個月內完成調查"},{"start":17702.364,"end":17721.798,"text":"一個禮拜內完成調查,依法處理。左榮泰講的話算話嗎?請教部長。當然算話。當然算話。他要求的時限是多久?我們的確在一個禮拜當時的發生以後開始調查到一個禮拜我們有做"},{"start":17723.143,"end":17731.296,"text":"做什麼?初步的報告你們在做的時間上是卓榮泰搞不清楚狀況連人種"},{"start":17735.07,"end":17761.247,"text":"連人種那個處理的指引處理的時限有多少都搞不清楚當一個行政院院長做這種政治性的發言現行法規是一個禮拜嗎?現行法規如果不是一個禮拜那我把他當成是行政院院長對於行政院所屬機關內部的自我強化要求嗎?對啊阿現在這個內部的強化自我要求有做到嗎?"},{"start":17762.642,"end":17780.591,"text":"我公開問這個問題就好了啦是不是有做到大家去對時間嘛左榮泰講的話到底算不算話更可笑的是什麼結果你們結果出來了為什麼今天這麼多委員關心社會滑爛啦有關的有關職的主管的通通不成立沒有主管職的通通都成立"},{"start":17791.886,"end":17815.944,"text":"抓小放大部長這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎我們都是秉公處理、依法辦理沒有關係啦不要講官話我就直接請教你嘛你個人作為衛福部的部長這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎我們尊重調查小組尤其我們叫做外部專業調查委員他們的"},{"start":17819.825,"end":17832.319,"text":"當初前勞動部部長何佩珊也是這樣講的嘛作為一個部長要有擔當啊這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎那你就勇敢的拍胸脯說我非常滿意嘛"},{"start":17834.639,"end":17853.335,"text":"我想我那個尊重就是尊重調查委員的一個意見如果說有新的事證或者是我們再繼續來我具體請教啊上班時間要員工深蹲福利挺身這個是OK的嗎來請教部長"},{"start":17854.36,"end":17866.475,"text":"好 這個我回答好了 這個這件事情是發生在2022年12月的時候因為這個新進的同仁只有一次是不是他也只有一次其他都沒有了"},{"start":17867.825,"end":17889.201,"text":"只有這一次所以現在建築...等一下等一下等一下我們一樣一樣來嘛這位司長逼員工深蹲福利挺身依照你們目前調查的結果在他擔任司長的期間當中只有一次沒有別次了是不是這樣?是嗎?這樣子調查的結果部長你認可嗎?"},{"start":17895.738,"end":17916.605,"text":"為什麼我今天問師長為什麼沒有來自己的事情自己不敢面對喔如果調查這麼嚴謹這麼坦蕩蕩連來國會接受被選的勇氣都沒有還是你們整個衛福部幫他擋在前面只有一次只有一次所以呢 來來來"},{"start":17922.898,"end":17927.692,"text":"其他在媒體上面建築的我現在直接看後面啦"},{"start":17932.469,"end":17958.612,"text":"有深蹲執行官深蹲聽訊深蹲姿勢不對聽短講聽到雙頭雙腿發抖會被糾正這全部都是不實爆料是嗎如果只有一次的話啦如果你們的調查結果是真的啊我只有一個結論啊現在建築跟外界投訴爆料的這些內容全部虛偽不實這是調查小組的結論嗎"},{"start":17962.931,"end":17977.363,"text":"非常感謝黃國昌委員對本案的關心跟垂詢客氣的話不用講直接回答問題就好了啦就是有關福利挺身就是一次所以這些爆料全部都不止福利挺身一次深蹲幾次深蹲的話是從2022年從這個2024年大約五月的時候開始總共有幾次"},{"start":17985.59,"end":18007.537,"text":"他們就是我們平常都會有那個就有健康操時間嘛然後是以這個就是說鼓勵大家的方所以用鼓勵的方式同仁都很高興樂於接受鼓勵是這樣嗎我們現在目前依我們訪談這裡面總共有14個案子裡面有13位他們可以理解但是確實有一位心境同仁他覺得就是說這個"},{"start":18009.317,"end":18029.562,"text":"他覺得不習慣十三位可以理解是真的可以理解嗎所以我跟委員報告就是所以現在建出在報章媒體上面的爆料全部都是只有一個人抱怨其他的人都覺得很OK是這樣嗎對所以我們也因為這樣老實說我也覺得就是說這個市長這樣齁是整個這個管理上面現在把規矩講清楚就好了啦對沒錯把規矩講清楚就好了啦沒錯"},{"start":18032.883,"end":18042.449,"text":"長官可以要求暑假深蹲福利挺身嗎?可以還是不可以?絕對不可以。絕對不可以嘛。來出來。來來來來來來。我們一樣一樣講清楚啊。那你們在裡面的報告講什麼?講說啊是用鼓勵的方式一起運動。調查小組認定沒有強迫。這個結論部長你滿意嗎?包委員。對不起我請問部長。部長這個結論你滿意嗎?"},{"start":18063.472,"end":18065.853,"text":"我覺得如果有運動時間應該要尊重尊重每一個同仁他們自有的一個活動方式"},{"start":18093.467,"end":18116.945,"text":"所以如果有任何的強迫去做特定的或者太超過那你覺得司長都這樣下令了同仁有沒有覺得被強迫還有深蹲執行官喔部長我跟你交換一個意見我們將心比心今天我們立委監督行政部門幫我們基層的公務員發聲"},{"start":18119.448,"end":18147.853,"text":"我們將心比心我今天如果在質詢的時候我請你深蹲我請你福利挺身你一定會覺得這個立委一點道理都沒有濫用職權憑什麼要你深蹲憑什麼要你福利挺身我們將心比心我相信這樣子講部長應該可以認同嘛當然當然當然嘛那每一個人都是一樣嘛衛福部有司長官威很大"},{"start":18149.449,"end":18172.681,"text":"還有深蹲執行官喔結果大家為什麼對你們衛福部的調查報告意見這麼強烈你看嘛第一個調查報告全文不敢提供給立法院說是要保護同仁你們在討論臨時提案的時候我人雖然沒在現場我都透過我們院內的視訊"},{"start":18174.878,"end":18187.564,"text":"在看你們討論其中的理由是什麼啊怕同人有心理壓力怕暗圖寄索去找到那個同人那我現在就有個問題啊找到那個同人然後呢他會被誰壓迫"},{"start":18189.38,"end":18212.696,"text":"他會被誰秋後算帳?如果按照你們今天調查報告的結論這些主管職每一個人繼續當主管都沒有問題那代表了什麼?代表你們今天部長幫這些主管背書嘛他們繼續當主管絕對不會有秋後算帳絕對不會繼續霸凌同仁"},{"start":18214.707,"end":18224.916,"text":"你們調查報告的結論跟整個台灣社會講的就是這件事嘛他們可以繼續當主管我部長背書OK沒有問題啊如果是這樣子的話怎麼會有人擔心還會會被缺貨算帳連你們自己都沒信心了嘛所以才不敢公布調查報告嘛部長我有沒有講錯"},{"start":18239.554,"end":18264.973,"text":"報告委員我想我們去識別化以後今天的結論我們會去每一個未還的委員那非未還的委員呢如果有要求我們也會去報告好那我現在要求來報告可以嗎沒問題順便講清楚啊沒問題你們的標準怎麼跟勞動部差這麼多啊勞動部的謝宜龍是叫大家跑步啊勞動部的調查報告啊認為不可以這樣做啊沒有擦肢抹粉啊"},{"start":18269,"end":18274.826,"text":"結果你們衛福部的報告標準很特殊喔鼓勵啊鼓勵同仁運動啊部長會不會覺得你們衛福部的標準太寬啊我想這個都是調查委員專業的一個認定真的喔這樣子的認定你覺得很專業喔所以是勞動部那邊的不專業就對了是嗎"},{"start":18293.171,"end":18296.612,"text":"整個政府機關可以有不一樣的標準喔來 我請教部長你在一個工作環境裡師長三不五時就要大家練深蹲啊"},{"start":18316.732,"end":18345.029,"text":"阿你覺得這個工作環境好不好如果是在必要就是說健康的時間如果是在必要在健康的時間吶吼那有有要帶著大家運動那是一回事那如果強迫做比較比較大家超越體力吼或是不喜歡的市長都開口了下面的人趕不照著做當然這個就是不用擔心考記喔行政失當不用擔心升遷喔不用擔心在長官面前有沒有關愛的眼神喔"},{"start":18347.472,"end":18361.267,"text":"公務體系的邏輯是這樣嗎當然委員的考量我都支持我都了解今天有很多委員針對這件事情提出質詢我相信部長感受很強烈"},{"start":18362.441,"end":18388.602,"text":"大家對於衛福部這種關關相互的態度啊是沒有辦法接受的是沒有辦法接受的我們絕對不會去關關相互是不是有關關相互是不是有關關相互社會上有社會上的評價嘛我們絕對不會去關關我保證絕對不會關關相互做出來的結果做出來的結果就這樣啊啊你現在的說辭跟前勞動部部長有什麼差別"},{"start":18390.123,"end":18398.37,"text":"當初前勞洛部長不是說我們尊重專業小組尊重外聘委員結果勒?結果勒?我想沒關係我們的調查報告都可以經過大家來考驗可以經過大家考驗就公開嘛那就我們第一個階段先跟各位委員報告不管是未完的或者是希望來了解我這樣講啦"},{"start":18417.83,"end":18441.462,"text":"我們到時候你們來說明的時候所有接到的投訴所有看到的檢舉我們一樣一樣做事實查核我們一樣一樣做事實查核如果裡面有調查小組該認定沒有認定該考慮沒有考慮該考慮沒有考慮被具體抓出來的話部長承諾重啟調查可不可以做到"},{"start":18442.691,"end":18467.171,"text":"你如果這麼有信心就不用擔心被檢驗嘛到時候來我辦公室說明的時候我一樣一樣對啊有該處理沒有處理該考慮沒考慮就重啓調查可不可以承諾如果有新的市政或者是不用新的市政嘛既有的市政沒有考慮就應該重啓調查了不是嗎是吧如果有多的補強的政績我們願意繼續來調查OK好謝謝"},{"start":18473.1,"end":18501.177,"text":"好,謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。鄭天才委員,資訊。主席,有請部長。委員好。部長辛苦了。謝謝。這個衛福部"},{"start":18502.842,"end":18525.796,"text":"是要對人民、弱勢者、個人、兒少、家庭你們有保護師、照顧師、心理健康師社會工作師然後發生這樣的一個霸凌的事情真的是"},{"start":18529.116,"end":18557.859,"text":"所以我們應該要衛福部的標準這個次長衛福部的標準要比一般的部會要更強化那個標準要更嚴謹更嚴格所以除了衛福部這個工作人員、員工、公務員的部分之外我們看這個社工"},{"start":18559.355,"end":18584.893,"text":"超過八成的社工遇到職場霸凌言語霸凌你現在看言語職位社會霸凌的比例這麼高那怎麼樣我們怎麼有期待怎麼會能夠安心的說女人的社工整個社工體系能夠對"},{"start":18587.333,"end":18610.609,"text":"個人、家庭、兒少、老人各方面的尤其是有心靈需要去協助的所以真的是要去好好的除了這個衛福部的公務人員的一個職場霸凌要絕對要避免之外那社工然後他是第一線的人"},{"start":18611.818,"end":18636.8,"text":"所以更是需要去加強部長這個部分尤其是我們社工司我們蘇司長這個部分確實是一個需要去加強的地方這更是第一線直接對人民影響的部分所以這個部分來做這樣的一個免利我們看這個"},{"start":18639.709,"end":18665.174,"text":"這個文件站長照師文件站總共現在原住民的文件站已經有519站沿鄉425站都會期94站這個都是從長照基金裡面來來自印那總共如果我們以沿鄉部落的話425站距離我們"},{"start":18668.663,"end":18688.872,"text":"的部落總共有740個部落就是還差很多還要增加很多的文件站那就都會期而言都會期現在94站那我們原住民的人口已經有一半以上在都會期了50.96%在都會期居住所以這個"},{"start":18695.478,"end":18712.223,"text":"延續民主的文化健康戰需要去加強要加強的方式很簡單就是要增加經費給人民會從長照基金我們看這個長照基金114年度114年度的預算跟這個113年度的預算"},{"start":18723.074,"end":18749.513,"text":"長照基金增加了五十億八千五百七十萬七千元而原住民的文化健康站的預算只增加一億這個比例這差這高對不對比例增加你增加了五十億八千多萬然後原住民的文件站在長照基金裡面只增加一億"},{"start":18751.19,"end":18758.259,"text":"所以這個部分可以從其他的經費...會不會請常委跟您報告一下?好,請。"},{"start":18760.29,"end":18783.483,"text":"主席跟委員好那有關於文化健康站的這個部件的確我們也非常的重視跟支持那長照基金這邊也都會有挹注相關的經費那我們現在大概都是人民會話他會提送相關的一些經費需求跟他的一些計畫來部裡面這邊我們會做經費相關的一些合撥那所以後續如果還是有這樣的需求部長這個我來說齁"},{"start":18785.063,"end":18812.019,"text":"事實上人民會每一次提報的他是這樣你給我多少錢我就只能做這麼多事實上申請文件站的那個團體很多但是因為你只給他這麼多的錢所以他就只合這麼多是這樣所以所以剛才這個副市長嘛所以你剛提到"},{"start":18813.946,"end":18830.971,"text":"員民會是報的少,是不是?你的意思?應該是說,員民會他還是會去規劃就是要在哪一些地方去做文件站的一個部件,然後來提相關的計畫。好,這個那你們可以請員民會說需求多少?"},{"start":18832.765,"end":18856.531,"text":"需求多少我可以增加這樣的經費因為你現在預算給他這麼多就已經框在那邊了所以他就只做這麼多所以這個部分這個希望我想這個部分我們去了解一下不要說先框著那就無法照顧到整個需求了應該是以需求為導向這樣"},{"start":18857.971,"end":18881.476,"text":"所以這個部分要請這個衛福部能夠多多協助來溝通一下另外本席在9月就發文有關文化健康站的造福源還有儲供的薪資要比照軍公教調高調薪3%這個部分已經現在"},{"start":18887.862,"end":18911.721,"text":"馬上一頁就要到啦,到底要不要加薪?比照啊,就是比照中共叫啊。可以嗎?部長。沒關係,我們有在處理啦。那看長照書你講一下。好。是。那針對這個部分的調薪,現在我們部裡面有在做一些討論演繹,那我們會盡快做一個回覆。太久了吧。你們已經演繹最起碼"},{"start":18914.44,"end":18925.825,"text":"兩、三個月了一直說演藝中、演藝中、簽合中一開始我還收到你們的簽合中簽合中還簽那麼久莫非部長還是次長一直把他壓著"},{"start":18927.35,"end":18955.363,"text":"報告委員那因為這個部分其實也涉及到說我們也會整體來看說會不會影響到說其他據點的部分相關民間單位他聘用員工的一些薪資的部分那我們整體其實一起去做一個考量所以不是簽合中嗎所以你們還在承辦人的手上沒有沒有我們其實已經整體做過一些相關的評估那現在也是在部裡面我們做相關的一個程序做討論所以什麼時候會有結果"},{"start":18959.637,"end":18973.373,"text":"無法回答我們盡快因為聽這樣就是說動一法千神聲就是擔心這樣子我想不然的話應該要挑就要挑嘛那挑的話是不是其他的那個"},{"start":18974.916,"end":18998.225,"text":"其他單位也會有相同的一個效應可能他們在評估當然都要都要那都要的話當然就會有預算方面預算沒問題這次增加50億多了好不好好哦我想我們明年度增加50億多的長照基金我想這個文化健康站這個招委員這個雛光應該是我們要關心的好好"},{"start":19001.274,"end":19002.375,"text":"謝謝英明的召集人"},{"start":19031.817,"end":19033.297,"text":"我們請部長。部長,延續剛剛的議題,文化、健康、站、造福源跟儲供,其實這個你應該可以很放心的"},{"start":19052.154,"end":19068.54,"text":"來答應因為尤其我們在城市中的城市還是有很多人需要照顧所以如果說依照這個比例3%這個在我們整個的通盤來講這個是完全必須的"},{"start":19069.62,"end":19087.125,"text":"所以你剛才還是沒有辦法很直接的回答你所謂盡快盡快盡快那你總是要有一個day night時間點在哪裡讓人家有所準備跟依歸可就可不可就不可你要盡快盡快盡快快快快快到什麼時候"},{"start":19088.223,"end":19103.174,"text":"好多久時間告訴人家嘛對不對我想最重要的考慮點是怎麼樣我想不管考慮怎麼樣你總是有一個時間點可以應許給人家現在沒有沒有要求你說加"},{"start":19104.295,"end":19123.745,"text":"或不加加加幾趴沒有這樣子只告訴我們充分的給你們研議那什麼時候可以告訴人家嗎現在是12月底中啊對啊現在已經12月中了嘛對啊12月底好了市長在對不對你要告訴人家嘛這樣大概這樣子沒有答案不行啊"},{"start":19124.505,"end":19129.208,"text":"多久時間?請告訴我們時間因為現在這個裡面真的像部長剛剛說的是簽一法動全身剛剛部長說要回答12月底我們這個要做總體的一個很不幸的考量我們會趕快來一個快快快一個趕快你加一個趕"},{"start":19145.518,"end":19156.885,"text":"那到底你告訴我們時間沒關係你告訴我時間這個真的是牽一髮動全身齁牽一髮動全身你告訴我時間啦沒關係啦謹慎來衡量啦謹慎來衡量我請問我們什麼時候可以得到答案報告委員我們會謹慎來衡量啊本來是快快快趕快現在謹慎很多沒關係你應該要有來部長你請回答部長"},{"start":19173.24,"end":19197.591,"text":"我們大家理性討論但是你還要一個時間因為一再講再講完全沒有一個時間點我們如果只要求時間點都要求都聽不到那我們接下來怎麼諮詢沒關係我們那個可以或不可以啊不可以是什麼原因對啊對啊你有當過民意代表你就知道背景的訴求我想我們在首頁底來把這個答案先呈現"},{"start":19198.371,"end":19216.419,"text":"好,謝謝部長,12月底我們等著看,等著聽,文化健康站、照護員以及廚工是不是要加薪,給我們一個答案方向,要加或者是不加,對不對?好,謝謝部長,來接下來部長我要跟你討論霸凌的事情,事主袁紹"},{"start":19217.748,"end":19236.472,"text":"那你這次的調查報告呢就好像繼續放火你的八件裡頭只有三件成立而且都是非主管的在處分那麼司長級的都輕輕放過在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教是不是在重點霸凌這個霸凌文化基層的公務人員要繼續來煎熬"},{"start":19245.546,"end":19250.552,"text":"我相信你絕對沒有那個心所以本席要求你公佈調查報告因為不斷的資訊在你的報告當中根本是沒有的所以你要重啟調查一一來說明否則我看社會大眾跟國會都沒有辦法接受欸"},{"start":19263.735,"end":19266.657,"text":"部長您的看法呢?本期贊同!贊同這個方向!你們剛剛有做決議!那本期要了解!"},{"start":19287.975,"end":19294.219,"text":"然後就到委員辦公室報告我們一定要好好的保護需要被保護的人嘛當然當然部長這個錄音帶都已經被揭露了我相信你聽過了你們必須要先自殺你等人人家來他殺你要先自殺你一定要先表示你的誠意啊還有一個要自殺還要先表示誠意的"},{"start":19314.968,"end":19339.36,"text":"這些調查的結果是說什麼?不當的比喻,尚不構成霸凌。這種話都講得出來。部長,沒有辦法想像我們的居城員工、居城人員他身心靈多麼煎熬。如果是你的家人還是你的小孩,碰到這樣的主管,你會認為他不是霸凌嗎?請做說明。"},{"start":19342.795,"end":19368.547,"text":"我想這個用詞是的確非常不適當那但是據我據了解齁那個當時是在講一個案件如果你不好好的自己意思說自己把它弄好你就是等別人來去報告的時候會被別人來修理嘛所以他的用詞是比較極端你認為是極端的用詞怎麼不可長官不可能叫人家去自殺他殺這件事情所以你的錄音帶"},{"start":19369.927,"end":19372.129,"text":"他的影音呈現是如此叫人家自殺還要先表示誠意這是哪門子的說法"},{"start":19379.118,"end":19400.107,"text":"所以資訊越來越多部長資訊越來越多你應該要把這個調查好好的調查清楚本期剛剛在聽到你的答詢當中你站起來說在處理臨時提案的時候你站起來說該調查的要調查要調查的水落石出這是你說的嘛對不對"},{"start":19401.948,"end":19426.603,"text":"一定要好好查清楚,勿縱勿枉一定要查清楚接下來本席要跟你討論你們的報告內容說這個霸凌申訴人必須要具名以言辭或書面提出行政院的霸凌平台也是這麼說也要具名所以本席要說要具名第一個要麼表示我們的行政能力盲恨無能"},{"start":19427.591,"end":19434.375,"text":"滿分無能連調查的能力都沒有啊第二個就是要準備敲算帳嘛你叫人聚名嘛由於寒蟬效應啊這樣的決定是誰決定的會不會有補充匿名者只要是能夠舉出事證跟他針對哪一個人我們就是一樣去調查也要調查嘛所以不需要聚名嘛是不是對啊我們這八案應該大部分都沒有聚名請問"},{"start":19457.189,"end":19481.863,"text":"您們不需要具名嗎?是不是?不需要具名的我們現在也都納入調查所以也是要具名?不用啊到底要不要具名?匿名的我們也調查那要不要具名?匿名的他就沒有具名了好,匿名的也調查當然最好是具名你們有沒有最好是具名所以就是要具名啊?那具名誰敢啊?不具名我們也調查"},{"start":19482.711,"end":19509.834,"text":"不具名的調查,但是你們也希望他們具名,是不是?因為行政平台,行政院的霸凌平台也就是要人家具名所以本席要告訴你這一次霸凌案之所以能夠在網路上面廣泛的討論就是因為它有匿名性才能夠被廣泛的討論讓媒體跟調查單位它可以有線索去查"},{"start":19510.655,"end":19530.706,"text":"甚至也有人發文啊他也有人發文說明確地說他在公務體系但是如果讓我具名我根本不敢出面舉證或者陳情對不對你也知道嘛你當過民運代表你也知道啊行政院也有說只要有媒體有報導或者信息相關細節我們都是要查要處理的"},{"start":19531.286,"end":19547.591,"text":"所以我們一個答案現在行政院的霸凌平台是要拒名我也告訴他們你們要改第二個我們現在可以確認你為何不雖然說希望拒名但是不拒名的、匿名的你們也會有舉證的對當然就是說你們這樣子的情況也要調查對不對這個要理清楚喔那你要去思考"},{"start":19560.194,"end":19587.879,"text":"到現在你婉轉的說如果是沒有匿名的但是有實際這個實際狀況者可尋者那你們都會調查那你要去考慮也要告訴行政院我衛福部都可以這麼做了幹嘛你行政院也要匿名啊行政院長有這樣指示啊行政院長有這樣指示可是他的霸凌平台是要具名那你要告訴他那個霸凌平台的具名要拿掉你跟他很好你告訴他"},{"start":19589.878,"end":19610.592,"text":"我想這個...因為講的跟做的文字是一樣啊!有些依法辦理以外我們會強化它的一個...那你要告訴行政院長啊,你跟他很好我知道你要告訴他,我們都可以匿名都可以接受,如果有實證都可以接受你要告訴他,不要我們行政院做的一套跟你做的又不一樣啊"},{"start":19611.837,"end":19617.658,"text":"但是我們現部會務部是只要有施政的有施政不需要具名就可以查我們確認這一點非常好因為我也可以理解公務單位是怕說爛樹爛茶打擊到無辜這個本性也可以了解但是我們有政府我們有政府的目的不就是為了可以查明真相嗎對不對"},{"start":19640.103,"end":19653.721,"text":"所以在這種情況之下需要被保護的人那需要被保護的人一定要保護他們這一定要的所以我本期要在這裡跟你說明現在你們認為要不要去修法要不要去修法"},{"start":19657.352,"end":19663.58,"text":"要不要去修法?修法因為目前霸凌的這個案子還沒有很明確的法所以經過了這麼痛苦的個案經過了這麼痛苦的個案我們應該可以專案去研擬"},{"start":19672.516,"end":19687.709,"text":"去組一個team去研擬到底這個認定是怎麼樣認定本市也不希望社會大眾一直質疑我們政府本市更不希望我們所有的公務人員有被霸凌而無處沒有申訴的管道"},{"start":19688.87,"end":19703.237,"text":"對不對你一直點頭你絕對認同本席的說法當然當然 對不對所以呢本席也希望也就是在這樣的一個情況之下我們是不是應該要應該要去來做修訂法律請教剛剛委員"},{"start":19705.168,"end":19709.272,"text":"對,剛剛委員所提的這樣的一個我們經過了經歷了這樣的慘痛的教訓對啊我們總要讓職場更好跟社會更好這個是我們會在權者方面來跟權者的機關你是組一個team嗎好好的去演繹讓大家可以放心來討論嘛也就是修訂那個法律可以讓所有的有權者"},{"start":19729.051,"end":19750.846,"text":"所以讓大家都能夠 讓工作者大家都能夠放心啦謝謝我這是我們一起鼓勵的目標 最少他是一個合組作用嘛 對不對一定要往這個方向吧 是好 所以去組一個team好好的去研擬好不好好 我們本身也會來衛福部那邊也會來精進那也會跟各個牽扯單位大家來互相研議好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝楊曉明委 謝謝部長"},{"start":19755.936,"end":19756.398,"text":"學習請盧建一委員"},{"start":19774.887,"end":19790.061,"text":"委員好部長好我們都是醫生那我想說衛福部這樣一個部門聽到衛福部這兩個字如果你是一個一般的年輕人他要考公務員然後他選擇我來衛福部的原因是什麼"},{"start":19791.28,"end":19818.692,"text":"是不是要去照顧人是不是要去處理所謂的心理健康啦或者是長期照顧啊或者是醫療這個部分結果到了醫療部門衛福部這個單位看到那麼多的霸凌案人家會怎麼年輕人會怎麼想那我還要來這裡幹什麼然後剛才現在的那個調查報告只有三個成立那麼多項不成立然後呢被處分的人都不是主管你有沒有想一個解決的方法"},{"start":19820.141,"end":19836.107,"text":"這幾天你有沒有想一個解決方法?我想還是跟委員報告這是我們調查消息裡面專家的一個專業的一個他們經過的那個問卷以及深入訪談的客觀證據還有他們依照法規這樣定出來的一個結論那其實"},{"start":19847.759,"end":19850.008,"text":"雖然有些可能沒有到達"},{"start":19851.588,"end":19879.473,"text":"職場的霸凌但是因為可能行政不當或者是沒有出領導不好不當也都有分別給他記過或申請我的意思是說有沒有可能是主管太想升官了一直想要講求績效然後都不管這些員工的生死或是感受那是不是也有一個基礎說如果你是當了師長或是當主管級兩年到四年輪掉一個單位不然如果這個他碰到一個科長是非常嚴謹然後"},{"start":19880.353,"end":19880.393,"text":"衛福部會計處"},{"start":19907.04,"end":19934.031,"text":"科長霸凌同仁先前被投訴的時候主計總處總推給衛福部會計處自己處理又是一個求援兼裁判的案子被霸凌者已超過數十人也未見正式立案調查主計總處跟衛福部會計處根本就是關關相護會計處長還以面談的名義找同仁聊天實際上是在抓投訴的人而不是去處理霸凌同仁的某某科長"},{"start":19935.251,"end":19956.588,"text":"我收到的這個裡面他是有具名的只是如果你們私底下找我會給你們是不是要等到我在衛福部衛福部到六樓會計處用生命做最沉重的控訴才要處理衛福部會計處至今仍沒有任何作為科長做出任何實質處分處長只是想著升官所以能拖就拖"},{"start":19958.339,"end":19984.093,"text":"等輿論過了再輪到其他的部會這樣就不用負多島部州的責任然後不願意傾聽同仁說的只願意相信鱷魚的眼淚這樣的一個處理態度這就是造成某某科長一而再再而三霸凌同仁不收斂的溫床會計處的長官就是共犯希望委員能救救我們徹底制止這種行為我的意思就是說我念了這篇我是看到我是非常驚訝"},{"start":19984.993,"end":19985.594,"text":"您可以通過這個方式來尋求協助嗎?"},{"start":20001.9,"end":20027.41,"text":"跟委員報告關於這個同仁他的投訴其實我們之前已經收過非常多個投訴那我們其實事實上也有特別去做處理那我們訪談同仁的目的其實不是在抓投訴者而是在了解是不是有霸凌的事實那在這樣子的情況之下我們都會再告訴同仁說請同仁如果確實認為這個科長有霸凌的事實請他尋正式的管道可以讓我們去做立案調查"},{"start":20028.17,"end":20050.363,"text":"到目前為止因為投訴的狀況非常的多我們為了要方便部裡面可以去做這個所謂的立案調查的這樣的事情還有就是說我們要確保我們目前在職的同仁他願意坦誠的去跟這個去陳述說他是不是真的有遭到霸凌這樣的情況所以我們現在已經先把這位科長先調離現職"},{"start":20051.784,"end":20053.986,"text":"我今天會特別提出來是這個原因這八個裡面立案調查的這個結果"},{"start":20067.146,"end":20091.568,"text":"主要就是因為他這份是匿名的投訴案件那還有就是說我們事實上我們也針對這個科長也做了一些必要的一些調整跟處理好謝謝那第二個就是我去我昨天在金門成立服務處那到金門其實最直接相關的當然就是金門醫院的問題所以昨天我到金門他們就直接給我陳情了就是我稍微念一下我的陳情書"},{"start":20093.731,"end":20102.853,"text":"好他說氣到不想隱藏了對就是金門醫院醫生們跟長官們動動你們的腦袋想一想一家地區醫院"},{"start":20103.847,"end":20123.786,"text":"一次要離職將近20位護理師到底是為什麼是因為醫生們不斷壓榨霸凌護理師對他就是霸凌就這樣子一直念下去也就是說他們認為他們被醫院霸凌然後造成一次離職20位護理師所以我希望衛福部這邊能夠做一個調查"},{"start":20124.968,"end":20136.328,"text":"應該他還有壓榨他們的留任獎金還有如果說你超過30分鐘不算加班的這樣的一個加班的情況是不是就他們所謂的不平齁請衛福部能不能立案調查"},{"start":20138.609,"end":20166.828,"text":"我們一定立案調查不曉得請執行長稍微報告一下跟委員報告這個金門醫院那歷年的這個護理人員的離職那111年大概18個那113年就是剛剛提到有13個那其實他的那個離職率這幾年其實都差不多都小於1%那跟委員特別來報告一下那離職率也都其實是在這個我們照護師的整個平台裡面"},{"start":20167.406,"end":20195.744,"text":"也都有這個明確的數據所以沒有像這邊所提到的這個20位這是第一個要特別說明的第二個因為就是說接門醫院因為是在離島偏鄉的醫院所以我們會有一個所謂臺北農總的IDS的計畫的醫師過去那當然這個部分都是一段期間可能是兩個月或是半年所以在這個部分裡面就是我們有責成接門醫院這裡要把這個所謂的資源的醫師這個部分要更多的教育"},{"start":20196.889,"end":20200.229,"text":"也請他們要好好的來善待我們的護理人員那這個部分"},{"start":20201.045,"end":20228.708,"text":"醫院這邊已經有處理有成立一個機制就是在醫師跟護理跟專科醫師這個專科護理師的這方面的工作的協調對工作這方面的界定還有需要有一個在釐清的部分那有關所謂的獎勵金或是說留任獎金那獎勵金我們瞭解其實金門醫院的獎勵金是沒有比過去少是有增加那留任獎金是縣府就是他們有一個就是離島"},{"start":20229.509,"end":20244.754,"text":"建設基金那過去都是由金門縣府這邊補助那但是因為這個離島的基金在這個部分因為經舊的關係比較少所以在這今年由縣府給金門醫院的這個所謂的這個基金的補助裡面減少大概有8折打8折"},{"start":20246.895,"end":20250.918,"text":"所以他們的感受覺得是有少所以這個部分我們還要再跟縣府這邊再來溝通一下"},{"start":20279.337,"end":20292.424,"text":"目前已經有立案調查,正在調查中。好,那我也是希望如果有調查結果,也跟本席報告。好,沒問題。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝。謝謝,謝謝盧委員,謝謝部長。吳春成,吳春成,吳春成委員不在。張祺凱,張祺凱,張祺凱委員不在。賴世寶,賴世寶,賴世寶委員不在。"},{"start":20307.301,"end":20316.824,"text":"王宏威、王宏威、王宏威委員不在。邱振鈞改書面質詢。吳立華、吳立華、吳立華委員在嗎?不在。葉延之、葉延之、葉延之委員不在。陳盈衝過來了。"},{"start":20361.51,"end":20374.462,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":20396.989,"end":20397.249,"text":"我來了"},{"start":20432.372,"end":20439.678,"text":"好,非常感謝召委的等待。然後我請那個部長先上來。"},{"start":20445.439,"end":20465.309,"text":"部長好那個我想要先請教一下因為10月9號的時候也有跟部長拜託說因為那個文件站跟那個巷弄長照站的照服員已經五年沒有調新了這個問題那希望說明年可以一起調整那當時部長也說會好好瞭解跟規劃那我要請教一下這個長照司了因為我"},{"start":20470.295,"end":20479.526,"text":"師長沒有副師長因為今年加薪4%嘛那明年加薪3%那衛福部有沒有跟你們說說你"},{"start":20481.75,"end":20504.135,"text":"復代條件就是說你必須要增加多少業務做多少績效之後才可以加薪啊這樣子算加薪嗎加薪應該是我們維持原來的業務量然後你有增加你的薪水那叫加薪嗎啊但是現在的加薪有沒有說你們要增加多少業務增加多少績效之後才可以加薪"},{"start":20505.742,"end":20508.043,"text":"我先報告委員,真的很敬佩委員為這個文件站大家的權益來爭取。這個部分的確我們在指示之下都有在詳細的演繹。這個演繹當中因為牽涉的有一些範圍。是不是我請長掃師跟委員報告?"},{"start":20527.88,"end":20549.39,"text":"剪短齁快速這樣是委員報告委員我們這個部分已經有整體在做評估那近期我們會盡快將相關的評估結果再跟委員做一個回覆報告但我這邊的重點是我剛剛講了一個概念喔加薪就是你原來的業務量然後增加了薪水叫加薪嘛那你如果增加了業務量然後還要增加績效的話那叫什麼這算加薪嗎有沒有這樣的附帶條件"},{"start":20555.441,"end":20574.775,"text":"或者你們現在不清楚因為我有聽到這樣的消息了解這個狀況我們會做整體的評估我知道你們要做整體評估但是我講的我們對於加薪的定義我想我們先在這裡釐清嘛有必須要增加業務量才可以加薪嗎如果說本來就是整體"},{"start":20578.278,"end":20593.407,"text":"增加業務量當然是理論上是應該要加薪那如果說大家都一定有一個制度是一定隨著物價所以怎麼樣再上場的話我想這個也應該都要考慮在內這樣子"},{"start":20595.233,"end":20618.742,"text":"好,那個我就做這個提醒,因為這種附帶條件很奇怪,因為我們這次的加薪是整體的。好,謝謝那那個常総司請回。那另外我想我們來看一個這個表啦,因為最近大家在討論這個霸凌調查的這個部分,既有深度又有廣度。那雖然我們不知道是部長是誰給你這樣子的一個深度跟廣度的標準,但是我們看一下"},{"start":20619.882,"end":20646.437,"text":"這個表因為這也是目前你們公布然後我們大家看到這個表我這樣放眼過去我唯一我沒有辦法理解就是說這個社工司檢認視察職場霸凌成立記過一次長照司司長不成立但他也記過一次一個成立一個不成立但是都記過一次這個是我們會有很多的疑問跑出來嘛"},{"start":20651.543,"end":20658.936,"text":"報告委員現在目前這個部分主要有兩個部分一個就是成立跟不成立"},{"start":20660.207,"end":20678.834,"text":"另外一個就是說有關情節輕重你成立成立的話就要符合這一個所謂一般我們有關於霸凌的一個相關的定義人總有給我們一個還有其實最主要我們參考那個各個法院的判例判例裡面大概有三個最主要要件第一個就是說你在職場當中用詮釋的這個方式發生在職場上面"},{"start":20682.295,"end":20712.295,"text":"閱讀議論"},{"start":20712.295,"end":20714.917,"text":"我是建議你們這樣子好不好因為你們給資料其實我們也沒有很完整的資料就看到這個表嘛"},{"start":20728.187,"end":20750.299,"text":"你這個表其實會讓我們有很多的質疑你這個表沒有寫好你又不講清楚懲處是什麼懲處所以就變成你們衛福部的調查就沒有公信力啊那衛福部調查衛福部就等於部長沒有公信力嗎所以我只是說你們這個表讓我們非常的疑惑那如果既然是那個你就把它寫清楚你那個表設計是不良的"},{"start":20751.26,"end":20760.162,"text":"好,我們有詳細的調查報告那氣勢沒話以後就要到委員的辦公室親自跟委員報告我們時間有限吼那個我我來"},{"start":20762.373,"end":20789.742,"text":"對我來直接我們就進入這個加熱菸的議題好了好那個2024年12月16日中午12點左右也就是今天我的助理呢負責這個加熱菸議題的助理呢從台北火車站回到正在回到我們立法院的路上這個好巧不巧呢我們就遇到了這個我們的假署長號"},{"start":20791.904,"end":20802.399,"text":"我想要請問因為他遇到那個角署長的時候角署長在路上跟我的助理這樣講我很早就想在路上遇到你了"},{"start":20803.581,"end":20820.036,"text":"他有面帶微笑但是這話聽起來很恐怖欸你們要找助理請問各位在找助理你們想要找每個委員的助理你們會在路上立法院以外的路上說我很早就想遇到你了嗎很想在路上遇到你了嗎你們會嗎會的舉手"},{"start":20823.176,"end":20851.514,"text":"獎項應該是賣吧助理很忙碌整天都關在立法院在研究室裡做研究怎麼會有人還是你們的這個假署長在那邊路上這樣子跟我們的助理講啊他又是剛好好死不死負責加熱菸議題的助理哇這這話聽起來不寒而栗欸還是我不知道啊是平常哪位你們你們哪位政務官或事務官會會遇到助理都會在路上這樣子講"},{"start":20854.737,"end":20872.451,"text":"還是還是還是他比較希望看到我的時候這句話是想對我講的我很早就想在路上遇到委員了等一下請吳署長去問他一下不是啊我可不可以請教一下那個正牌的吳署長你覺得這句話是什麼意思吼"},{"start":20874.932,"end":20901.783,"text":"我真的沒辦法讓他揣測他的想法但是我絕對不會這樣做而且我也覺得蠻恐怖的對嘛我是說一般正常的人都會覺得不寒而栗啊怎麼會這樣子問呢我只是想要告訴你們我這裡公開講我告訴你們我的加熱菸的這個質詢部分很精彩的部分都是我自己加上去的"},{"start":20903.337,"end":20926.805,"text":"如果很想遇到我我們幾乎最近因為立法院很忙我也幾乎都在研究室再辦我就在委員會所以如果想要遇到我的話我想在院區都會遇到那你若真遇不到我們下班之後可能也會在路上遇到我也歡迎你這樣子跟我講好不好那我想這個我要點出一點啦"},{"start":20928.038,"end":20946.525,"text":"就是說加熱煙這個它其實有一個好玩的數據在我們所有政府的這個稅收裡面唯一負成長的是什麼就是這一次止煙的這個煙稅它降低了1.6%部長你知道降低1.6%是多少錢可能3億"},{"start":20958.331,"end":20986.718,"text":"三億兩百四十二三億左右嘛吼好那雖然只是降了三億吼但是它就是有一個現象意思就是說我加熱煙即便被你們卡住遲遲沒有真正的開放即便修法通過它仍然沒有開放但是奇妙的是止煙的這個煙水它還是降低的這代表什麼"},{"start":20987.95,"end":21008.787,"text":"就代表這個就是一個市場的需求他們就還是會去偷抽嘛我上次不是跟你比了嗎上看下看左看右看那個抓不到的百億的稅都在這裡啊所以你們卡那個是沒有意思的你們卡到了只是真的只是政府的稅收你們再怎麼卡都不會增加那個只淹淹稅的稅收啦"},{"start":21011.835,"end":21014.237,"text":"我覺得每一個議題都是真的議題"},{"start":21035.97,"end":21059.57,"text":"都是要好好的來研議那加熱因的部分的審查其實我們也請健康署一直國健署其實是一直在協助相關的輔導啦我想今天我要點出我每次上來講到加熱因我都點出重要的數據上次是那個百億齁那這一次我點出1.6%淹稅下降"},{"start":21064.414,"end":21089.043,"text":"加熱煙沒有開放但煙稅、紫煙煙稅是下降的這個數據給你們參考它背後的意義表示什麼那就是說現在就是說因為我還想請教就是說煙害這個煙害防治的工作到底是國民健康署的工作還是這個煙害防治基金的這個工作還是它是這個煙害防治策進會的業務因為"},{"start":21092.233,"end":21119.996,"text":"因為主要是這樣子齁我想要釐清一下這個煙害防治策進會是不是國民健康署的這個上司是嗎是還是不是我想煙害防治法在國民健康署是主責單位那部裡面有一個策進會只是針對說我們就是說我們整個煙害防治的時候有一個報告那部長是個召集人"},{"start":21120.623,"end":21142.293,"text":"對阿對啦但是他他就是你們的那個整個應該不是我們不是嘛不是你的上司嘛雖然部長是但是這個測競會不是嗎那所以根據這位福布你們的這個淹害防治測競會設置要點召集人當然由部長兼任執行長藝人是由次長兼任那這個會的這個"},{"start":21145.095,"end":21171.628,"text":"呃這個工作小組就是由國民健康署署長你擔任召集人嘛對不對所以這個測淨會就是國建署的長官那也就是淹害基金會的淹害基金會的頂頭上司啊那現在要審預算那本期就想了解一下就是說有關於這個淹害呃這個淹害防治測淨會每年有多少預算可以使用好那既然你們說都有這個設立工作小組負責推動淹害防治相關工作那就表示說這個單位應該有有"},{"start":21174.209,"end":21187.655,"text":"這個預算來執行相關的工作那你們明確說這個單位每年有多少預算然後錢從哪裡來你們可以講一下嗎委員指的是測進會這個單位是吧它就是一個臨時的組織的一個會議而已"},{"start":21193.049,"end":21220.64,"text":"臨時編制的一個會議而已臨時編制的會議那因為這個策經會113年度的會議資料這個單位的經費好像是你們應該是來自這個菸品健康福利捐嘛是來自於這個菸害防治基金阿他沒有特別的預算編內阿都沒有對但是他的我是從你們113年度的會議資料那邊看來的喔你們要經費這個菸品的這個健康福利捐"},{"start":21222.862,"end":21250.538,"text":"整體我們做的菸奶房子相關的菸味的編列跟執行成交業務報告那會在這個執行裡面做討論報告會在這裡做討論嗎?因為部長是召集有相關的委員嘛那必須要跟這個委員來報告說我們今天的執行狀況跟明年度的那個相關的菸味編列所以你們那個預算什麼通通都是沒有?沒有都沒有預算這個只有那個開會而已一個委員會而已"},{"start":21250.998,"end":21267.709,"text":"好,那你們那個會議資料,就是會後也再一併提供給我們做參考。OK,好,謝謝。好,沒問題,謝謝,謝謝委員。謝謝,謝謝陳英文。我們吳立華委員要求實行事務。稍安靜啦,稍安靜啦。謝謝主席提敘。有請部長。"},{"start":21280.819,"end":21300.101,"text":"委員好部長好因為我上次有關心過我們的原建法通過後的一周年之前有成立了原住民族健康研究中心原住民族健康研究中心到了今天又剛好又在滿一年所以我很關心就是"},{"start":21301.042,"end":21326.181,"text":"這成立的一年到底我們做了什麼我也很關心到底我們應該做哪一些改進那我從這個地方開始說起聯合國原住民權利宣言我們可以看到在保健的部分它的條文用到的是原住民族這個主體主詞到了我們的原基法呢我們發現關於這個衛生保健的部分我們的條文是用政府"},{"start":21327.061,"end":21345.267,"text":"所以它已經被去集體化而且它的內容是指那一些什麼福利資源的交通費用等等這種單點式的補助還好我們在前年我們完成了援助民族健康法在這個當中也提到要做一個援助民族的健康研究中心"},{"start":21346.187,"end":21373.689,"text":"那我們是希望說我們可以不再用西方醫療的眼光看待原住民族的健康我們的政策的規劃也不應該用單點式、個人式的補救心態我們希望我們的整個對健康定義可以去殖民化那避免大家把原住民族的健康視為劣等是有不平等但是不能視為劣等所以呢我們舉一個例子我們看到在我們的原住民族人口及健康統計年報"},{"start":21374.89,"end":21389.99,"text":"竟然有出現什麼酒精相關的什麼躁鬱症、酒精性肝病這個在其他的健康年報沒有出現這個只有在原住民的健康才有所以我們問了很久它的依據為何、證據是什麼沒有,刻板印象"},{"start":21392.734,"end":21406.883,"text":"所以也許是真的但是就是提不出個數據資料證據所以我們覺得我們希望未來這個原住民族健康中心能夠起碼像毛利人一樣做一個部落父權什麼叫部落父權至少每一個問題都要問"},{"start":21408.004,"end":21424.81,"text":"如果是布農族他會怎麼想他會怎麼做如果是泰雅族他會怎麼想會怎麼做我們希望呢這樣的一個方式因此我們就很希望說我們的健康不要用一般的這樣的一個方式去醫療化例如在我們有看到這個跳草群舞是為什麼"},{"start":21429.972,"end":21447.897,"text":"因為夏威夷他們有一個數據說他們的夏威夷的原住民死於心臟病是比一般高出70%但是他們後來透過他們的一些傳統的方式去做填調發現跳草群舞也許能夠有所幫助果然"},{"start":21449.077,"end":21464.122,"text":"真的能夠控制正常而且效果程序更久所以原建中心有沒有具備能力讓我們的族人想像部落的健康而不是用診所用西方醫學來訂定這個是很重要的甚至像這種健康促進"},{"start":21464.802,"end":21480.547,"text":"有沒有可能是由文件站以後來做而不是有衛生所都要有所依據有所證據所以我在這邊因為時間的關係我也都不好意思再問了那我只有一個很重要的想像就是人才的招募那我到網站看不到"},{"start":21481.007,"end":21508.498,"text":"如果有人有心要進來他也不知道要從哪個門進來那現在我再問一下像明年度有一個國際原住民族健康研討會議原建中心有沒有要派人參加但至少我目前知道這一年來已經有很多國際原住民的健康研討會不曉得我們的原建中心有沒有參加過院長還是部長好那我是希望啦這個"},{"start":21510.728,"end":21527.438,"text":"一定要有我們的一個文化安全我們已經入法我們必須要具備文化安全文化敏感度的人來做這個工作所以我很在意原住民族健康研究中心有沒有至少有可能讓原住民來做來參與"},{"start":21529.005,"end":21544.178,"text":"好,我想這個,巴委員,剛剛上次也有提過啦,我們在國會院的團隊討論的時候也很希望能夠找到,院長也一直在物色相關的,如果有適當的人請推薦,那第二個相關的會議我想我們"},{"start":21545.519,"end":21563.437,"text":"國衛院或者是招募師都會派人,衛福部都會派人過去,那個像我的好朋友田志學醫師,他也特別他說要出國要去爭取一些主辦權,我們也給他最大的鼓勵希望能夠到台灣來辦理,所以我想,然後第三個就是"},{"start":21564.15,"end":21579.063,"text":"健康的影響因素是世界衛生史早已經接觸我們社會文化相關的跟健康的關係都是非常重要也就是說各個文化的我們要站在他的立場上面"},{"start":21579.924,"end":21604.43,"text":"來思考健康怎麼樣來照顧這就跟委員的指示是一樣的好那我聽到這樣的一個回覆我覺得甚感安慰那我也希望後續能夠確實的去質詢那我們很希望真正的讓原建法立法三讀通過之後能看見我們的一個轉變也具體的在我們原住民健康的表現上面"},{"start":21604.89,"end":21618.1,"text":"能夠看到有所改善那我相信我們有充分的證據相信應該如果是原住民有這方面的專業的背景來做的話應該有更多的不一樣好謝謝部長、謝謝市長、謝謝院長、謝謝主席、謝謝部長"},{"start":21625.58,"end":21650.399,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束。委員楊耀、邱振鈞、竹千琦所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。現在作以下決定。報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者。請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從期所定。"},{"start":21653.863,"end":21660.407,"text":"下禮拜三、四要審你們的預算所以大家準備本次會議到此結束現在上會謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}