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謝謝主席 主席 各位同仁 大家午安案由 針對第11屆第2會期第14次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項 建請照議事日程草案及甄列報告事項通過提案人 民主進步黨 立法院黨團好 我們接下來請登記第三位陳委員 金輝發言"},{"start":5271.687,"end":5271.707,"text":"好"},{"start":5297.062,"end":5325.252,"text":"那我們現在登記委員已經發言完畢齁我們要進行處理了齁那這個先我們先提案先處理總共三個案這個包括民眾黨黨團的提案包括民進黨黨團的提案包括國民黨黨團的提案三個提案內容都不一樣所以我們都依序進行表決了齁那我們現在首先處理林國成委員的提案"},{"start":5326.38,"end":5353.705,"text":"這是增列第11案到23案暫緩列案請問對林國城委員的提議有異議有異議我們現在進行表決這個請清點在場人數在場委員18人現在贊成林國城委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":5359.704,"end":5385.444,"text":"好,反對者請舉手好票決結果"},{"start":5396.121,"end":5419.606,"text":"好 表決結果出席委員18人 贊成者1人 反對者11人 棄權者6人那我們可否均衛國反對不對啦 反對11人對 贊成者多數欸 贊成者少數 對好我們這個贊成者少數 不通過"},{"start":5425.885,"end":5448.052,"text":"那我們接下來處理這個王正旭委員的提案請問針對王正旭委員的提案有無異議有異議我們進行處理請清點在場人數在場人數18人我們贊成王正旭委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":5456.8,"end":5460.007,"text":"好,我們反對這個王仲勳提案的請舉手"},{"start":5481.038,"end":5500.234,"text":"好,我們表決結果,出席委員18人,贊成者8人,反對者9人,棄權1人,我們贊成者少數,不通過接下來我們處理9位過半數了,沒有超過半數"},{"start":5503.25,"end":5518.318,"text":"我對不起齁這個我們因為出席委員18人我們反對的9人齁所以我們可否兩方均未過半數按照本院的規定可否兩方均不過半數的時候應重新表決以多數為可決沒有"},{"start":5520.031,"end":5544.9,"text":"要雙方評票才可以我們初期贊成了只有8人反對的9人但是9人這個反對者也未過半數所以我們按照本院的規定我們重新表決啦那重新表決之後就是以多數為可決那我們現在我們重新進行表決請問這個贊成王正旭委員的請舉手"},{"start":5554.95,"end":5559.014,"text":"好,那反對王正旭委員提案的請舉手好"},{"start":5567.27,"end":5588.319,"text":"那我們表決結果出席委員18人贊成者8人反對者9人棄權者1人贊成者少數本案不通過接下來我們處理陳經輝委員的提案陳經輝委員提案除D案以外均暫緩列案請問對陳經輝委員的提案有異議有異議我們進行處理請清點在場人數"},{"start":5600.794,"end":5604.858,"text":"好,在場人數18人贊成陳金輝委員提案的請舉手贊成者9位反對陳金輝委員提案的請舉手好,反對者"},{"start":5625.206,"end":5644.641,"text":"現在出席委員18人 贊成者9人 反對者8人 棄權者1人我們可否雙方均未過半數 依本院相關規定可否兩方均不過半數時應重新表決所以我們重新進行表決 以多數為可決現在贊成陳靜薇委員提案請舉手"},{"start":5653.407,"end":5679.553,"text":"反對曾經為委員提案的請舉手反對者8位現在表決結果出席18人贊成者9人反對者8人棄權者1人贊成者多數通過接下來我們請宣讀討論事項及同意行使事項"},{"start":5682.766,"end":5705.235,"text":"討論事項12月20日及24日下午沒有同意選擇第一案附一不通過予以刪除二本院公民黨黨團建集院會作成決議勞動部前部長何培山及勞動力發展署北分署前分署長謝義榮應受嚴厲之譴責請供決案三本院公民黨黨團建集院會作成決議本院針對勞動力發展署北分署吳姓公務員被罷免於辦公室經銷案成立調查委員會請供決案"},{"start":5705.855,"end":5719.725,"text":"4.本院國民黨黨團針對國際會部長於就任前移設不當遺傳股權提出譴責請供決案5.本院國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議由於錯誤的再生能源政策以再爆出不法弊端提出嚴厲譴責請供決案6至7院會通過予以刪除8.本院國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議"},{"start":5724.268,"end":5738.535,"text":"國人通訊自由及個人隱私毫無保障對賴政府提出嚴厲譴責請供決案9.本院國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議成立國人通訊自由及隱私遭非法監控調查委員會請供決案10.院會通過予以刪除"},{"start":5740.341,"end":5762.327,"text":"11.警察人員人事條例修正草案12.憲法訴訟法修正草案13.憲法訴訟法修正草案14.院會通過予以刪除15.發展觀光條例修正草案16.本院國民黨黨團建請院會成立郭志輝調查委員會請供決案17.本院國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議本院針對再生能源相關弊案成立調查委員會請供決案"},{"start":5763.347,"end":5788.605,"text":"18本院委員黃健豪等11人﹐建請院會作成決議﹐中央政府應先統計全國老舊銷售數據﹐所需拆除重建經費﹐並得以便利特別預算方式完成之請供決案19本院臺灣民眾黨黨團﹐建請院會作成決議﹐對行政院院長卓榮泰提出嚴厲之譴責﹐請供決案20本院公民黨黨團建請﹐將吳秉瑞委員送交紀律委員會役主﹐請供決案21行政院組織法修正草案22"},{"start":5790.026,"end":5816.453,"text":"院會通過予以刪除23公職委員選舉罷免法修正草案24財政收支劃分法修正草案25接避者保護法草案同意全職行使事項12月24日上午宣讀完畢好我們現在請登記委員發言我們在第一位林國臣發言結束之後截止發言登記現在請第一位林國臣委員發言"},{"start":5824.775,"end":5827.276,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團針對第11屆第2次第14次的會議議程討論事項12月20號及24號下午提議僅限列下列10案順序並照表通過如下表"},{"start":5844.744,"end":5862.18,"text":"12月24號上午同意前之行使 擬請照議事日程草案 所列通過 是否有當 敬請公決臺灣民眾黨立院黨團 以下提列實案 敬請議事人員宣讀 謝謝好 我們現在請議事人員代言宣讀"},{"start":5868.837,"end":5897.89,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第14次會議討論事項12月20日及24日下午提議僅限列下表所列時案順序並照表列通過12月24日上午同選之行時事項擬請照議事日程草案所列通過事由擁當敬請公決1.接避者保護法草案2.財政熟知劃分法修正草案3.公職人員選舉報免法修正草案4.老人福利法修正草案"},{"start":5898.49,"end":5901.413,"text":"好 我們現在截止發言登記請第二位 登記第二位 請王委員正續發言"},{"start":5929.346,"end":5955.862,"text":"好 謝謝主席 案由針對第11屆第2會期第14次會議議程討論事項12月20日至24日下午 建請僅限列下表3案同意全日行使事項 12月24日上午 建請照議事日程草案通過是否有當 敬請公決提案人 民主進步黨 立法院黨團 以上"},{"start":5959.387,"end":5980.197,"text":"好 我們現在請議事委員代表宣讀民主進步黨 立法院黨團 針對第11屆第2會期第14次會議討論事項 12月20日及24日下午 建請僅限列下表三案統一選擇行使事項 12月24日上午 建請照議事日程草案通過 是否有當進行公決1."},{"start":5980.197,"end":5982.778,"text":"行政院組織法宣傳草案2."},{"start":5982.778,"end":5984.999,"text":"證券交易稅條例宣傳草案3."},{"start":5984.999,"end":5986.9,"text":"野生動物保育法宣傳草案宣讀完畢"},{"start":5989.354,"end":5990.157,"text":"謝謝,我們請登記第3位,請陳委員進會發言"},{"start":5999.161,"end":6021.897,"text":"案由本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第二會期第14次會議議程討論事項提議僅限列下表所列順序並照表列通過同意權之行使事項12月24日上午擬請照議事日程草案所列通過是否有當進行公決提案人中國國民黨立法院黨團我們請議事委員代言宣讀"},{"start":6028.885,"end":6055.455,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第14次會議討論事項提議請現列校表所列順序並照表列通過統一權之刑事事項12月24日上午擬請照議事日程草案所列通過是否有當盡情公決1.公職人員選舉罷免法修正草案2.憲法訴訟法修正草案3.憲法訴訟法修正草案4.財政收支劃分法修正草案5.接避者保護法草案"},{"start":6056.597,"end":6058.522,"text":"6.老人福利法修正查案7."},{"start":6058.522,"end":6061.028,"text":"休業服務法修正查案8."},{"start":6061.028,"end":6062.292,"text":"證券交易稅條例修正查案"},{"start":6064.137,"end":6088.348,"text":"9.發展觀光條例修正草案10.警察人員事條例修正草案11.本院委員黃建豪等11人建請院會作成決議專案政府應先統計全國超過50年以上老舊校舍數及所需拆除重建經費並得以編列特別預算方式於8年內完成請供決案12.本院臺灣民眾黨黨團建請院會作成決議對行政院院長周永泰提出嚴厲之譴責請供決案13.本院國民黨黨團"},{"start":6092.23,"end":6108.568,"text":"建請將吳秉瑞委員送交紀律委員會役處請供決案十四行政院組織法修正查案十五本院國民黨黨團針對勞動部前部長和配三級勞動力發展署北分署前分署長謝業榮因受嚴厲致謝的請供決案十六"},{"start":6109.249,"end":6124.204,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對勞動部勞動力發展署北分署無性公務員與被霸凌與辦公室輕生案成立調查委員會請公決案本院國民黨黨團針對郭志輝部長於就任前移設不當遺傳股權提出譴責請公決案"},{"start":6127.407,"end":6142.892,"text":"本院國民黨黨團建請院會成立郭志輝調查委員會調查其是否涉及股權移轉相關弊案請供決案19本院國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議要求院會對於賴政府寧可犧牲全民利益也要掩飾不法之行為提出嚴厲譴責請供決案"},{"start":6145.133,"end":6173.885,"text":"20本院國民黨黨團建請委員會作成決議本院針對再生能源相關弊案成立調查委員會競訴釐清真相請公決案21本院國民黨黨團建請委員會作成決議由於國家通訊傳播委員會無法掌握民進黨高階幹部如何違法取得資料提出嚴厲譴責請公決案22本院國民黨黨團建請委員會作成決議成立國人通訊自由及隱私遭非法監控調查委員會請公決案宣讀完畢"},{"start":6176.36,"end":6205.708,"text":"好那我們這也是三個提案齁大家提案的這個有關這個討論事項內容都不一樣所以我們就這個依序進行處理那我們有關這個請問我們就先提案先處理齁請問針對林國誠委員的提案有意義沒有意義齁有齁有意義齁那有意義我們進行表決請清點在場人數"},{"start":6212.943,"end":6222.67,"text":"現在贊成林國成委員提議的請舉手現在反對林國成委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":6233.953,"end":6261.306,"text":"好,那我們現在表決結果是初期委員18人,贊成者1人,反對者10人,棄權者7人,贊成者少數,不通過接下來我們處理,繼續處理王正旭委員的提案請問對王正旭委員的提案有異議沒有有,好好,有異議,有異議我們進行表決請清點在場人數"},{"start":6265,"end":6285.824,"text":"下次你們再慢一點我就宣告通過了好 我們在場人數18人 贊成王正旭委員提案的請舉手反對王正旭委員提案的請舉手9位"},{"start":6295.742,"end":6315.395,"text":"好那我們表決結果初期委員18人贊成者8人反對者9人我們本案表決結果可否雙方均未過半數依本院相關規定可否兩方不過半數的時候應重新表決以多數為可決現在我們進行重新表決贊成王振旭委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":6322.549,"end":6343.483,"text":"贊成者8人反對王哲聚委員提案的請舉手反對者9人我們初期委員18人贊成者8人反對者9人贊成者少數棄權1人贊成者少數不通過接下來我們繼續處理陳金輝委員的提案請問針對陳金輝委員提案有無異議"},{"start":6349.246,"end":6371.224,"text":"好有異議我們進行表決請清點在場人數好贊成陳清威委員提案的請舉手反對陳清威委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":6382.231,"end":6405.069,"text":"我們出席人18人 贊成者9人 反對者8人 棄權者1人可否雙方均為過半數 我們進行重新表決我們再清點一次在場人數好 我們請贊成陳清威委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":6413.049,"end":6437.766,"text":"反對陳金威委員提案的請舉手我們初期委員18人贊成者9人反對者8人棄權1人贊成者多數通過討論事項修正通過同意權行使事項通過接下來我們請宣讀人民請願案"},{"start":6440.236,"end":6442.959,"text":"人民請願案一一請願法第4條規定系屬議題訴訟這事項共思案宣布完畢"}]}},{"id":"158190","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158190","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711c99b9af0b817dd014be7ea4c45b1b9ea50a566117881e46ef11aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"13:09:08 - 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游凱祥科長國電署研究員黃巧文護理健康師陳青梅"},{"start":1411.963,"end":1416.166,"text":"經濟部主任林德森國際貿易署檢任秘書簡穎英技術師科長何彥慶"},{"start":1440.292,"end":1447.517,"text":"國家發展委員會副處長賴雲林簡任記政曾永儀沈智勳科長莊靜文科長世衛發展部副處長陳惠敏"},{"start":1468.663,"end":1474.184,"text":"交通部公共署副署長林信任"},{"start":1498.53,"end":1499.191,"text":"國科會楊台鴻處長軍管會林志憲處長"},{"start":1525.461,"end":1530.625,"text":"教育部梁學正師長吳志偉專門委員陳應賢課長文化部陳怡靜副師長"},{"start":1554.451,"end":1561.173,"text":"我們現在進行協商社會福利及衛生環境、經濟兩委員會審查委員吳春城等42人擬具《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》案"},{"start":1581.34,"end":1587.763,"text":"審查會於11月2日審查完畢制定案,共21條。法案名稱第1條、第11條、第15至第21條保留,其餘12至14條由審查結果通過。"},{"start":1606.413,"end":1622.359,"text":"並結議院會討論前需求有黨團協商。所以我們今天就來做黨團協商。與會的委員,如有修正、動議或機關有建議內容,請提出書面,應發現場進行討論。那先請與會機關代表說明,並請委員討論。"},{"start":1635.308,"end":1637.389,"text":"主席、各位委員還有行政院各部會的主管"},{"start":1663.78,"end":1674.995,"text":"這個法我們討論到今天委員會的協商那以上次來講大家也提出了許多的救教"},{"start":1677.518,"end":1678.058,"text":"首先談到為什麼要立法"},{"start":1705.739,"end":1722.729,"text":"為什麼要這個立法就是其實大家應該都很清楚台灣再過兩個禮拜就進入超高齡社會那我不曉得我們現在政府有提出什麼讓人振奮人心的"},{"start":1723.709,"end":1744.401,"text":"的一些方案大概都是率有就章用舊的方法解決這問題顯然都是擋不了這個少子化跟高齡化的浪潮那大家是不是可以擺脫擺掉這不是說那些東西不做那些東西要繼續做我們是不是有些新的"},{"start":1745.842,"end":1756.716,"text":"的方案出來來迎接這一個新的人口大浪潮那壯世代的推動即使行政院"},{"start":1757.91,"end":1782.864,"text":"是行政院現在已經有14個部會在配合了配合了半年其實有些部會都相當有成績特別勞動部勞動部做的事情非常多而且是三年要投入98億而且相信勞動部在推動壯世代的這一個"},{"start":1783.965,"end":1806.973,"text":"相關的活動、人才論壇各種的應該成果都相當的好我們看到了推動的壯世代都有得到很好的成果包括教育部也非常的響應推動了第三人生大學從一月份已經開始試辦各個學校非常踴躍"},{"start":1808.433,"end":1835.141,"text":"的響應,大家搶著要,搶著要增加的事辦,包括速發布,又使用了壯世代在那個諮詢頁當中,馬上創下幾萬人的這個進入,可以講說是銀髮族大碗諮詢頁的浪潮。所以在實務當中,大家可以看到壯世代的確開啟了一個我們對高齡的想像,"},{"start":1836.822,"end":1861.002,"text":"經常在問,就是說,我也問國科會的主委說,科學家需不需要想像力?他跟我說需要。那想像算不算科學?當然不太算科學,而是一個信仰,想像是一個信仰,不像你想像有沒有上帝一樣,它是一個信仰,一個信念。"},{"start":1861.883,"end":1885.668,"text":"那我就問他說那你心中認為的高齡社會是一個悲慘世界還是一個美麗新世界呢那他又答不出來他說有悲慘也有美好我說科學家沒有悲觀的權利嘛科學家一定是要樂觀嘛那是我們的未來欸那是我們的未來我們怎麼可以對未來悲觀呢"},{"start":1887.156,"end":1915.345,"text":"所以如果你認為它是一個悲慘的世界你就會提出悲慘的解方如果你認為它是一個美好的世界你就會提出一個美好的解方我們現在大部分認為高齡社會我看的論述都認為是悲慘世界這個要破產了那個要倒了那個要怎麼樣引發大海嘯來了所以大家各個部會手忙腳亂都想要補破洞"},{"start":1916.758,"end":1941.679,"text":"現在所採用的方式都在補波動大家非常的辛苦但是效果有限壯世代開啟了一個新的觀點就是把不可避免的高齡化社會視為一個美好的世界所以呢我們要先接受它這是不可避免倒三角形的社會這就是必然之台灣的未來"},{"start":1942.97,"end":1965.318,"text":"我們怎麼可以排去它呢?我們要把它想像它是個美好的世界那想像美好的世界,就是這些高齡者現在55歲以上的已經佔人口將近800萬,790萬人了那對這些人好一點不行嗎?這些人人生就只剩下長照嗎?就只剩下臥床嗎?"},{"start":1966.991,"end":1994.483,"text":"他們未來有30年我們的各個政策是不是應該要幫他們創造一個美好的未來呢整個的壯世代政策及產業發展促進法都在建構這個東西需要各個部會的配合那事實上各個部會也都非常的配合我們也都有很好的成果跟成效出來了然後呢現在到了立法的這個階段"},{"start":1995.819,"end":2012.734,"text":"我也非常的努力希望這是三個黨大家共同迎接給我們的全民的禮物不是哪一個黨的虧底不是哪一個黨的功勞所以包括這次連署42位當中也有8位民進黨的在這個過程當中不斷的溝通那我不曉得大家在反對什麼"},{"start":2022.327,"end":2047.178,"text":"我不曉得大家在反對什麼希望大家憑著良心秉持著看到這個事情的美好看到這事情的美好所有的包括相關的詞彙相關的東西這個不是突然冒出來這個已經在民間推動四年了現在的普遍的媒體廣泛的採用"},{"start":2048.078,"end":2064.202,"text":"大家只要聽到的都非常寧願喜歡採用壯世代這個名詞到處在各個部會各位如果你去google去搜尋都可以看得到這樣子所以當然相關的回答"},{"start":2065.723,"end":2082.873,"text":"在這本手冊當中都有針對上次大家提出的問題提出的回答因為今天不是上課沒辦法這個陳述非常完整但是上次在討論當中我也發現一個問題就是大家"},{"start":2083.934,"end":2084.494,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2112.683,"end":2120.031,"text":"好,謝謝原提案的五位委員那我們現在請勞動部次長跟衛生局部次長各講三分鐘"},{"start":2126.81,"end":2155.324,"text":"主席各位委員大家好首先代表勞動部感謝各位委員對於勞動政策的支持剛才吳委員也有諸多的期許和勉勵勞動部一一都有收到勞動部對於我們整個的勞動力的觸發一直都在努力當中那過去承蒙各位委員的支持我們中高齡及高齡者就業促進法也有完整的展開那今年12月4號也在各位委員的支持底下我們做了一版修正包括三年的"},{"start":2156.564,"end":2177.062,"text":"計劃包括一些指導的手冊要定期兩年更新包括我們對於即將退休或準備退休或符合退休資格我們應該理當給他相關的協助一些應有的作為我們都在持續展開當中所以有關於今天本案其實涉及到勞動部的部分主要是第七條"},{"start":2177.982,"end":2198.355,"text":"這樣一個條文當然是相對的概括提綱竊臨但是我們在中高齡及高齡者促進法都有完整的展開我們會本於這樣的精神持續去推出國人的就業的部分這第一點跟大家做說明那第二點就是說除了這個之外本案還會涉及到產業促進這要其他各方面的政策規劃"},{"start":2199.535,"end":2212.186,"text":"這部分大概都跟勞動部的業務比較無色我們基本上就尊重各個部會彼此之間的意見我們就不特別在這裡多做說明以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":2224.936,"end":2246.658,"text":"主席以及在座各位委員、各位同仁,大家早安。衛福部在這邊僅代表我們衛福部這邊來做簡單三分鐘的發言。第一個,我們非常非常欽佩吳委員在這個有關於這個壯世代方面的這個卓越貢獻。那麼其實這個確實是一個非常成功的政策倡議。"},{"start":2247.719,"end":2248.139,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":2271.738,"end":2294.039,"text":"中高齡是ILOD45,聯合國UN是65。對於這個所謂壯世代755,老實說在整個學術、法律跟政策上恐怕都是一個不確定的概念。因此落實為法律,恐怕真的需要比較明確的律定。"},{"start":2296.367,"end":2312.509,"text":"這裏面立法上面第二個重點就是說也比較牽涉在一些原則性跟概念性的描述那麼對於行政機關執行法律的這一個條文內容解釋上判斷一身這一個疑問所以"},{"start":2314.031,"end":2337.586,"text":"第三,我們現在目前其實在這一個有關於高齡社會白筆書裡面其實也已經有相關的這一個部會還有這一個由政委來召集那麼這裡面包括剛剛勞動部陳次長所提到中高齡者以及高齡者就業促進法以及教育部的終身教育法"},{"start":2338.426,"end":2363.64,"text":"經濟部的中小企業發展條例以及衛福部的老人福利法其實各個方面我們也編列了相關的經費統合了許多的部會那麼如果重複規範的話其實仍然容易一生法律適用之困難徒增執法之治安因此本部基本上還是持較為保留之態度以上說明謝謝"},{"start":2366.831,"end":2378.696,"text":"謝謝理事長。好,我們現在就開始。那我們就先從名稱"},{"start":2379.98,"end":2395.739,"text":"名稱叫做《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法》,上次是保留,現在請委員表示意見,那官員回答,如果有意見的話我們就保留,如果能通過的話就通過。"},{"start":2402.391,"end":2406.997,"text":"主席上次針對這個草案我們上次是認為就是說壯世代的這個定義確實是含瓜太廣了"},{"start":2416.709,"end":2417.79,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":2432.114,"end":2456.048,"text":"就譬如說這個壯世代改成比如說這個中高齡或高齡或者是超高齡這樣的一個這個名稱來定義的話那也符合現在目前衛福部跟勞動部或其他部會的一些法案可以銜接那也不會動到其他的相關的這個法案"},{"start":2457.529,"end":2465.946,"text":"我是不是可以建議就是說這個法案的名稱可以改為這個超高齡社會人才及產業發展促進法草案"},{"start":2470.919,"end":2487.675,"text":"還有沒有委員有其他意見因為上次我在工地公會的時候也有提過了就是說今天學禮上本來就沒有這個名詞當然你要喊這個名詞可是入法還是不太一樣"},{"start":2488.716,"end":2488.937,"text":"中高年齊、老年齊"},{"start":2516.024,"end":2535.393,"text":"明年是超高齡,那如果要這樣的話就直接叫做超高齡社會人才,但我知道吳委員是想說要有一個比較讓大家覺得說自己是壯世代,比較不是灰暗的,比較灰色的,可是入法的話我覺得事實上是要讓人家清楚的,不能是不清楚的,否則就是"},{"start":2535.913,"end":2536.933,"text":"行政單位有沒有意見?沒有意見"},{"start":2553.528,"end":2581.184,"text":"我可以發言嗎?可以可以誰都可以發言謝謝主席也非常謝謝吳委員真的非常熱心希望讓這個壯世代可以在台灣落地生根那未來可以影響到全世界不過因為我們也很擔心的就是45歲、55歲之間所造成的影響那吳委員也提供了今天的一個立法說明書的"},{"start":2583.346,"end":2600.185,"text":"1、2、3、第3頁我們可以看到最左上角有關於這個55歲以後勞參率斷崖式的下滑所以我們也擔心其實45歲以後的開始下滑到80%以下所以"},{"start":2601.627,"end":2628.959,"text":"未來如果壯世代規範在55歲以上的話事實上對於我目前所謂的中高齡還是有涵括上的困難所以我是比較也贊同說到時45歲以上應該也要關心不是相對也是壯世代的一群所以如果我們在法案名稱上做一些調整在說明上把這個壯世代這個名字也能夠在立法說明裡面有一個了解的時候"},{"start":2630.8,"end":2630.94,"text":"以上,謝謝。"},{"start":2657.307,"end":2682.137,"text":"行政單位是說這個壯世代世界沒有定義,現在吳春城是說55位以上,所以他們現在說找不到這個定義,所以會跟那個衛福部、勞動部、中高齡或高齡或老齡會有干戈,所以這點可能大家想到,來張市長"},{"start":2687.034,"end":2714.739,"text":"今天很高興,我記得是很理性在國通,我今天看到三位民進黨的立委,也都是大家比較肯定正能量的。那我現在是要提醒一下就是說,因為上次委員會審查的時候我有來,現在看起來那個,大家卡住的那個點都是一樣。那麼有智慧的主席,蘇欽前蘇委員上次有提的海洋委員會那個例子嘛。就當初海洋委員會這個要立法的時候,那海洋委員會這個也是一個新的,就跟現在這個壯世代是一樣。"},{"start":2715.629,"end":2720.593,"text":"那大家那時候後來是通過海洋委員會的你看那個執掌現在運作的也非常的好"},{"start":2721.531,"end":2750.541,"text":"我是覺得智者幫忙提出一個解決方法我覺得可以用這個當初海洋委會那個模式我覺得可以用壯世代這個應該沒有關係不過不過我知道今天有三位民進黨立委在你們真的如果還是一直都有意見啦我覺得一開始就是說因為我這個是超黨派的一個提案而且是比較沒有政治性色彩那麼重的我建議說如果大家還是有意見那就也不要再浪費太多時間在這上面因為上次也溝通過了嘛說要停留在原點就這樣保留好不好"},{"start":2751.839,"end":2771.844,"text":"你現在這個要保留,阿平都在保留,因為都卡在那一句而已,一句而已。我再說一句,剛才在說海洋委員會,我還是要跟大家報告一下,上次第八屆立委的時候,有一個叫田秋晴委員,現在在做監察委員,還有一個邱文彥委員,國民黨的。邱文彥今天在選考試委員,應該中了,應該當選了。"},{"start":2780.711,"end":2799.612,"text":"那麼兩個人,就是提一個海洋委員會,我都把他當作笑的,啊真的笑的,兩個很堅持,一直拚,一直拚,拚到什麼,連這個時候的總統馬英九都說服,結果這個海洋委員會就通過啦,通過我們覺得很奇怪齁,那那個行政黨也不敢,"},{"start":2800.475,"end":2823.549,"text":"不敢成立委員會搞了好幾年才成立,慢慢成立所以這個就是一個新的委員會誕生現在就是管媽在當主委所以有時候新的想法新的突破點也未嘗不是好事所以立法沒有那麼簡單我再一次跟吳春城"},{"start":2824.87,"end":2831.302,"text":"蔡教授口中有夠發明、有夠堅持,我真的佩服他的勇敢。"},{"start":2837.395,"end":2860.385,"text":"主席,因為我們上次已經有通過三個法條,就12、13、14,那個壯世代也許我現在我們再來即時管理,那個名詞,那個名詞部分我請你老子有,但是我想最後等大家是不是把其他的,沒有繼續保留,就是我們把其他的可行的部分先討論完,那個壯世代這個名詞要怎麼用?"},{"start":2862.311,"end":2862.651,"text":"後面一點來處理"},{"start":2873.464,"end":2877.726,"text":"其實壯世代是一個概念一個想法表示說有一群人他們在某個年紀之後他們還是繼續有所謂的貢獻能力生產能力健康狀態是處於不是在長照那個階段的狀態那這個東西我們可以討論那就全世界沒有我們台灣也可以第一個可是現在因為有點卡住我們是不是就實質面的部分我們也希望有一個統合的一個"},{"start":2897.998,"end":2918.297,"text":"因為這個不是權益法,這個是促進,那面臨台灣這樣的年紀狀況我想說,因為剛剛委員們,您這樣委員我提出來,但是唯一就是沒有個超高齡,那我們繼續思考一下,也許等一下我們就有一個大家可以接受的那個名詞,可以繼續往下面看一下嗎,不然我們就卡住第一條了主席,謝謝"},{"start":2919.693,"end":2941.998,"text":"名稱根本一定要用壯世代啦,現在大家喜歡啦,你是不是都用中高齡政策產業,那些古的娘,這壯世代聽起來很爽的,這名稱不一樣,聽起來很興奮的大家可不可以那個昭知委員所提的這一個,大家既然有爭議我們先不要卡在這裡,然後可不可以先討論,我們12到14條"},{"start":2946.459,"end":2948.34,"text":"主席明年2025年我們雙北要舉辦世界壯年運動會它的這個壯年事實上是30歲以上"},{"start":2969.198,"end":2997.723,"text":"所以我為什麼一直講說到底我們因為這個壯世代這個壯年你如果不是清楚的話有的又講說30歲有的你這邊又講55歲那等於是不是又講45歲所以我說如果按照發展人類發展學的話他的中老中年期事實上是我們的45歲到64歲老年期是65歲以上所以可是"},{"start":2998.735,"end":2998.955,"text":"吳春城委員"},{"start":3023.689,"end":3023.789,"text":"聶宇昌議員"},{"start":3054.06,"end":3072.386,"text":"其實我個人覺得這部法最重要的,剛剛也都講過很多啦,那我覺得這名稱的有它的重要性啦。那至於到底名稱是不是什麼,我覺得我想要問一下在場,現在國際上面定義是45歲以上是中高齡嘛,可是其實我自己問過很多人,45歲以上覺得被叫中高齡不是很舒服啊。"},{"start":3073.847,"end":3094.221,"text":"你會有人點頭,被叫中高齡不是很舒服所以我覺得這部法最重要精神是重新定義重新從觀念上改變這些事情那所以我們一直在糾結說國際上面好像沒人這樣做可是事實上國際上面目前我們是面臨人口驟變最嚴重的國家那大家在解決這個問題也沒有"},{"start":3096.102,"end":3112.872,"text":"國際上也沒有真的有解方那我們何不就是想一下我們是不是有可能可以突破那我自己就是其實這段時間剛剛吳委員也有講過在社會上其實各部會有在做這類的推廣那這樣子的名稱是不是真的有受到"},{"start":3113.692,"end":3136.935,"text":"有受到社會廣泛的接受或是他們聽到這樣的名稱有沒有對他行為做出實質的改變應該是這個壯世代的重點所以我倒覺得說究竟是不是定義這個壯世代或許各部會也可以針對說你們辦的活動你叫做壯世代之後跟你們以前所謂的中高齡高齡就業促進法有沒有明顯的差異假設有我們何不接受壯世代"},{"start":3139.574,"end":3156.041,"text":"那你硬要卡的話,平常你講,如果硬要說45歲以上、55歲以上什麼,那還是我們把壯世代擴大到45歲以上全部都是,如果你硬要這樣子弄的話,那不然就這樣子啊,那我們就符合,但是我自己是認為啊,定義這55歲以上可能有他的意義存在,包含剛剛看到的數據啊,那我只是想要反過來問說,其實"},{"start":3163.684,"end":3175.376,"text":"就我理解大家各部會在做這個壯世代議題的推動和倡議的時候他如果有實質的效果他的確有可能導致可以讓我們來應對所謂的人口的結構的急劇的驟變這樣謝謝"},{"start":3178.493,"end":3179.134,"text":"我講一下那個齁"},{"start":3197.572,"end":3215.631,"text":"對 那壯世代到底有什麼問題他給你一個什麼不舒服的感覺那你認為用什麼名詞比較好那當然可以提出來你認為用中高齡好 你也可以提出來我要問的一點就是如果他有問題請問勞動部"},{"start":3220.473,"end":3245.008,"text":"從今年的2月推動到這裡高舉壯世代旗幟投入了98億要壯世代重返職場然後辦了多少的活動呢有當時許明春部長說他最愛壯世代他發現壯世代給了一個很大能量辦了很多的研討會叫新價值壯世代"},{"start":3245.948,"end":3274.358,"text":"然後還有後續到了河北山部長的時候又辦了壯世代新任性然後辦了壯世代就業網路合作計畫辦了壯世代人力運用論壇然後有很多的壯世上個禮拜才辦的2024壯世代就業精彩獎然後用了很多壯世代為什麼勞動部要一直用壯世代呢"},{"start":3275.745,"end":3275.765,"text":"陳次長"},{"start":3297.837,"end":3324.106,"text":"你們用壯世代你們的定義是什麼含義是什麼我跟各位委員報告勞動部基本上面主管的是所有的國人的就業服務職業訓練跟相關的媒合也負責國內勞動力的提供我們其實針對所有15歲以上的工作人口通通都是在我們的照顧對象所以包括青年包括婦女"},{"start":3324.386,"end":3346.533,"text":"包括二度就業包括中高齡包括高齡者我們針對不同的年齡層別都有推出相應的計畫去做相關的處理那確實那個吳委員當時在提出壯世代之後他其實觀察到55歲也許有一些在勞動市場上應該要可以再做更積極的處理所以我們針對55歲以上發現確實有一些早退的狀況"},{"start":3351.175,"end":3377.685,"text":"我們希望在因應高齡社會把這些人留在職場所以我們相應的有一些行政措施來做搭配所以確實也收到一些成果所以我一開始就跟各位報告說在勞動部的領域我們在中高齡及高齡者就會促進法這樣一個法制底下相關的事情我們都在持續的展開今天這一部法對我們來講那是一個提綱竊凌的部分對我們來講是OK的"},{"start":3379.025,"end":3402.557,"text":"那但是他如果涉及到其他的面向,比如說涉及到教育、涉及到金融、涉及到產業發展、涉及到其他部分,那這個部分會不會因此有一些狀況,像剛才外務部呂氏講的說也許在他的業管的部分有一些需要再做討論的部分,那這些東西我們就沒有辦法幫其他部位做發言,我們就會請大家再多做討論。"},{"start":3406.082,"end":3420.824,"text":"蘇勇副處長 行政委員 表現一下主席 各位委員 根本上我們明年馬上就要進入超高齡社會所以剛才提的因為壯世代確實在國際上是沒有定義的"},{"start":3421.505,"end":3421.685,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":3444.264,"end":3464.975,"text":"黃學芳委員所提的部分我倒是覺得是可以考慮的因為我們明年就進入超高齡的社會那我們當初替壯世代講第一個人才第二個產業發展我想這個部分是主要的當然涵蓋其他的業務部門的部分都可以在我們這個法裡面去處理所以如果以這樣的"},{"start":3467.076,"end":3468.097,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3492.393,"end":3513.703,"text":"我剛才是支持黃委員所提的就是因為明年就要進入超高齡社會我們現在整個英式立島的部分講配合整個我們國內的這個社經環境的發展的時候我覺得那個名稱是比較貼切比較適合所以剛才提的部分是超高齡社會的人才及產業發展的促進法我就這樣就名稱來講或許這些剛才提的問題都沒有了"},{"start":3518.941,"end":3544.541,"text":"就是說吳委員可能現在已經在做譬如說勞動部他們現在已經在做的可能他原本就有用壯世代嘛那如果說吳委員你不是很堅持的話就是說其實立法的部分就是不是可以就是不要堅持壯世代可是行政單位他們在做的實際上在做的其實他們有很多就是用壯世代啊如果你不堅持的話"},{"start":3546.864,"end":3551.789,"text":"因為立法還會牽涉到其他部會,那定義的部分其實也很難定義。"},{"start":3573.831,"end":3576.413,"text":"65歲以上超過20%就叫做超高齡社會所以這個超高齡的定義是65歲以上,不是嗎?那個是指20%啦我們的福利法就是65啊,國稅標準就是65歲啊"},{"start":3601.755,"end":3616.048,"text":"我們現在的世界嘉義科學會他們的定義是64歲又11個月以前都叫青年然後65歲到74歲11個月叫做壯年"},{"start":3620.68,"end":3634.734,"text":"然後75到84叫做前老期85到94叫中老期95到104歲叫老老期這個是世界嘉義協會我聽到也很爽"},{"start":3642.241,"end":3664.897,"text":"主席,我只是在想,因為大家還是糾結在講這個年齡層,對不對?但是事實上,如果真的有關於這個年齡層要分得這麼細的情況之下,大概就是權益政策的狀況。就剛好說什麼老人福利法,就是你要65歲以上你要給他什麼福利,可是現在看起來壯世代這個並不是一個權益政策,它是一個促進政策。"},{"start":3666.698,"end":3687.71,"text":"所以我認為這個名稱我是覺得沒什麼問題大家是可以往這方向思考我還是回過頭來剛剛我很感謝勞動部事實上勞動部今年開始認真在推動所謂的壯世代如果真的這麼有成效我覺得不需要拘泥在一直說因為真正我剛剛講到的關鍵點就是你要去分這個年紀就是45歲以上65歲以上補助什麼東西要給他什麼權益65歲以上健保"},{"start":3693.854,"end":3717.491,"text":"對,我不曉得為什麼一直要反對他的一個原因大家在用的時候都覺得他有明顯的成效那今天一直要去反對他到底是什麼原因會讓他有好像是洪水猛獸一樣的一個"},{"start":3720.453,"end":3747.591,"text":"但是剛才為什麼談了一個必須要用堅持壯世代這個詞用一個超高的人不行因為關鍵就是在這個一個族群55歲55歲是一個在我們勞動力裡面當中是包括一個人的生涯當中這邊還有主計處的數據是一個斷崖式的一個分水嶺55歲有一個定義這是現在的新的現象而且"},{"start":3748.171,"end":3748.411,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":3771.158,"end":3792.713,"text":"很多的就是在目前的這些定義當中,他過了55歲就想要退休,退休以後就只剩下兩件事,游山玩水、寒意弄孫,然後整個人生,但是他有非常長的,他人生才過一半而已,但是我們舊的定義一直來定義他、催眠他,包括我們的政府的政策,依據這樣來設計政府的政策。"},{"start":3794.794,"end":3809.661,"text":"對這些人只剩下長照,就沒有別的政策,教育也不用,文化也不用,數位也不用,什麼都不用,所以這個是人設,我今天要談的就是人的設定的人設,人設設錯了,所有的政策就會錯誤。"},{"start":3810.601,"end":3839.053,"text":"我們現在對我們人民的認知的這個做到的必須要去調整調整在用這裡提出的政策你如果一直想要說過去有的全球到這裡都無法去解決壯世代現在提出來了為什麼產生這麼大的影響力就是他講對的話他針對的問題他對症下藥所以你只要把這個把它捏死用舊的東西把它捏死我不曉得目的是什麼"},{"start":3840.064,"end":3842.862,"text":"有什麼必要性?有什麼非要這樣做的必要性沒有?"},{"start":3845.694,"end":3855.06,"text":"主席我可不可以問一下就是說那個衛福部或勞動部針對我們目前45歲以上或者是其實勞動部應該有啦就是說不論是青年只要是勞工或者是這個45歲以上他還有工作能力你們應該也都會輔導他們去就業因為我在地方其實有很多其實他們即使是五六十歲那這個地方的這個就業輔戰也都會輔導他們然後"},{"start":3874.372,"end":3874.432,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3898.793,"end":3920.325,"text":"這個吳委員講的就是目前各部會已經在做的如果說我們一直拘泥在比如說壯世代如果現在都已經在做了或者是我們的活動的名稱有很多也都改成壯世代那其實就是說如果改成壯世代的這樣的一個促進法"},{"start":3920.925,"end":3943.538,"text":"那也許所有的相關的全部都要改,所有的法全部都要改,那這個真的是一個大工程,所以我是希望就是說今天大家在這邊大家再思考一下,那我是不是可以請那個勞動部跟衛福部針對你們現在針對45歲以上或55歲以上你們在福島的,你們可不可以再說明一下?"},{"start":3945.077,"end":3967.291,"text":"勞動部再做一點補充說明陳如一開始我跟各位委員報告的我們對於全民的人口只要15歲以上有工作意願或有工作能力的或者是相應的勞動人口我們通通都會有相應的計畫去推動所以我們對於青年我們有那個投資青年就業方案那對於婦女我們有付出江湖的計畫"},{"start":3968.391,"end":3991.926,"text":"對於中高齡我們有中高齡的計畫對於高齡者我們有高齡者的計畫吳委員當時在提到55歲的部分我們看到55歲確實也有一個可以努力的空間所以我們也針對55歲搭著壯世代這樣一個名詞我們也提了相關的計畫雖然我們在相關的法令裡面還是主要是向中高齡及高齡者促進法但是他"},{"start":3992.566,"end":4017.254,"text":"中高齡及中高齡者,就是45歲到未滿65歲的定義,在中間針對其中某一個特定的年齡層去做相應的一個計畫的推動,對我們來講是本來就是應該要做的。這是第一點作為報告。第二點,我超出了勞動部的部分,我看起來,因為我們一直在強調說涉及到其他部會的部分,我們要尊重其他部會的意見。"},{"start":4018.234,"end":4040.083,"text":"那看起來大家對於壯世代這樣一個只有55歲以上的部分過去幾次公聽會還有那個委員會審查的時候聽起來大概狀況會出在哪裡呢就從勞動部的角度而言我們規範55歲以上來做一個相應的措施是不會有問題的為什麼因為我們在工作人口上面一定是有"},{"start":4040.643,"end":4041.905,"text":"工作能力與工作意願"},{"start":4057.867,"end":4061.85,"text":"我還是在強調說對勞動部來講我們對壯世代這樣一個概念我們確實也看到55歲有一些狀況我們針對55歲以上的就業的面向我們有相應的措施在推動這一定是沒有問題的"},{"start":4085.806,"end":4103.705,"text":"我們會來持續去努力至於其他部會的部分我們確實沒有辦法幫相關的部會去做發言只是過去這段時間看起來大家對於這樣一個概念主要是在擔心這些問題我們所觀察到的狀況會是這樣"},{"start":4109.727,"end":4132.862,"text":"總召、主席、還有各位委員大家好。衛福部在這邊做兩點簡單的說明,其實我們的立場其實也是跟勞動部一樣,其實對我們而言,我們基本上也是全年齡,我們不會就是說特別哪一個年齡層,本來衛生跟福利本來就是全民的一個共同的福祉。那麼當然對於65歲以上,我們有老人福利法的相關的規範等等這些,"},{"start":4133.723,"end":4149.137,"text":"如果發展性,其實我們也有做啊,兩個部分,第一個我們現在目前其實有關志工的部分,我跟各位報告,我們在55歲以上其實已經佔我們所有的這個志工的人數高達58.9,大概已經有大概將近快30幾萬還是60幾萬嘛,對不對?"},{"start":4155.102,"end":4181.532,"text":"這是第一個有關於志工的這一個的那個部分另外第二個像有關於中高齡的那個部分其實我們國民健康署也有很多很多相關比如說賴清德總統現在目前在推動的這一個有關於那個888的這個慢性病的控制其實基本上也是針對我們的現在目前的這一個中高齡的那個部分來予以關心那所以其實基本上我們目前現有的發展性的部分其實我們也現在目前也已經有在做了"},{"start":4181.812,"end":4183.313,"text":"民不正則言不順,言不順則事不成,事不成則民無所,錯其手足。"},{"start":4197.126,"end":4225.434,"text":"這很簡單就是說我們現在如果說這一個我真的要非常佩服這一個吳委員他那本書我真的還有做筆記我真的非常佩服這樣的一個真的非常高瞻遠瞩的一個運動可是現在有一個問題因為我們現在要落實為立法落實為立法真的還是要講求因為這裡面的整個這個嚴格的年齡低要不然真的我們不是無所措其所足連官都無所措其所足"},{"start":4225.714,"end":4245.789,"text":"因為我們不知道它整個具體適用所以我是覺得就是說是不是就是說我們目前實質上我們也推動我們本部我們也以我們的立場我們覺得像黃秀芳委員剛剛所說的就是說如果不計較這個名稱那實質上面我們一樣可以來做是不是可以朝這個方向以上衛福部的建議 謝謝"},{"start":4254.676,"end":4267.168,"text":"我看這個名稱保留好了,說不下去了。我給你想想,我剛才這樣綜合,是不是用壯世代集中考慮,啪啦啪啦啪,這樣就好了,這樣兩個都有。"},{"start":4269.87,"end":4293.699,"text":"我想行政單位最大的困惑是因為他們已經有年齡的定義那你現在改這個下去在年齡沒定義要很籠統所以他們的法上法上面不曉得要怎麼弄啦一個法規要施行細則辦法都會卡住會覺得很難過啦我還是"},{"start":4300.086,"end":4315.86,"text":"我平常講,因為其實這也不是我主題啦,但是我蠻贊同這個概念,所以我還是想要講一下,你又加壯世代又加中高齡,那你不就又把壯世代跟中高齡加在一起,那大家聽了還是不開心啊。我剛剛在講的時候很多人點頭說被叫中高齡人不爽啊。"},{"start":4317.581,"end":4335.462,"text":"不是 你就不懂 那這法就不用用啦 照樣用中高齡就業促進法 中高齡和高齡者就業促進法就好啦這跟那個沒有關係 我認為 我認同說這件事情改變觀念是有機會讓我們去面對人口衝擊的 不然下一代要養多少長者 你告訴我"},{"start":4336.343,"end":4364.287,"text":"你現在每一年你投入一千億在做長照你用一千億去做少子化辦公室少子化辦公室很成功啊少子化越來越少啊那你長照也是一樣啊你每一年一直加錢進去結果我們的不健康餘命多少八九年那我們到底要不要用一個創新的思維去面對這件事情但是沒關係如果今天大家覺得一定要把它掛勾在一起也無所謂但是我要講清楚我的立場我認為這就是為什麼要叫壯世代的重點如果你最終還是要把"},{"start":4364.727,"end":4385.726,"text":"市長是在跟中高齡高齡者放在一起,那我們到底在做什麼?我的想法是這樣。現在行政院說要刷版本是真的沒有啦,說要刷一個版本出來,沒有反對,大家都說這樣說這樣沒有下文,有委員他們有跟你接洽嗎?"},{"start":4392.655,"end":4403.442,"text":"主席為什麼我一直舉手你都沒辦法然後一直連續都我們都沒辦法發言"},{"start":4413.649,"end":4420.895,"text":"政策應該要有延續性,法律名稱應該要清晰的讓人家一目了然,因為過去我們還有"},{"start":4440.189,"end":4465.762,"text":"尤其在講到定義的時候第一個學理上本來就不符合第二個是如果剛剛講勞動部的這個勞參率裏邊45歲到49歲是下降9%可是50歲才是真正進入到斷崖式的那50歲開始是下降17到55歲是下降20%以下所以如果這樣的狀況以下你從定義到底要回到學理的45歲"},{"start":4467.123,"end":4482.819,"text":"如果先不講名稱的話先回到那個學歷上我說一個事實上是我說中高年期老年期還有一個如果已經到八九十歲真的稱壯世代就會心情很開心就不是而且我們本來65歲以上"},{"start":4484,"end":4484.34,"text":"好,那我們"},{"start":4517.917,"end":4536.695,"text":"謝謝主席,我想大家都非常關心到底什麼樣的名稱能夠延續,不過我們也不要忽略人口結構改變以後造成對臺灣整體的影響,因為我們現在也知道明年就是超高齡社會,其實現在的年輕人和我們古早的年輕人的生活都不一樣,"},{"start":4540.538,"end":4568.777,"text":"所以未來對產業的影響非常非常的不一樣的情形之下我們現在如果說用壯世代又把這個年齡那麼樣的聚集在這個上面的話對現在社會的人不一定是適合像之前召委所提到的海洋的這個委員會對那個時候也大家沒有那個循環不過現在有那個循環我們如果現在頂可能10年20年以後"},{"start":4569.858,"end":4597.336,"text":"基本上在人口結構改變下造成的影響是不一樣的所以我們立法還是要有一個比較長遠性的一些思維跟需求不是說我們現在覺得很好就用這樣的方法來立一個在執行上或者是造成的困擾以後你知道要改變事實上我們還是希望能夠前瞻而且能夠執行上有它的一個有效性跟它的連結性以上"},{"start":4604.855,"end":4605.896,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4626.31,"end":4643.999,"text":"律師,我能不能要求你把萬一用這個壯世代這個名稱之後,你的一些法規啊、你的實行細則、你的辦法、特管辦法,不管了,會有干戈的,把它列出來,讓我盤點一下,到底是多大的,好不好。"},{"start":4653.171,"end":4655.695,"text":"第一條 吳春城 你的意見呢?"},{"start":4667.219,"end":4684.172,"text":"那個漢格進展,我先說一個簡單的,就是我們主要,葉青雯剛才說的,我是怎麼說,因為對我們在行政官員在執行,真的要講求,就是說那個清楚定義。你若沒有清楚定義,說到民眾的人問說,那是怎麼,就是說,我們要爭辯嘛,有時候有55,有時候,剛剛葉青雯也有說,壯年運動會,30個。"},{"start":4695.947,"end":4698.228,"text":"勞動部已經發了98億他用壯世代名義他們在去做這些事情的時候為什麼沒有這些問題勞動部他們那邊"},{"start":4714.899,"end":4715.52,"text":"中高齡就業促進"},{"start":4744.722,"end":4745.842,"text":"卓龍泰在行政院會當中就講"},{"start":4771.511,"end":4786.026,"text":"要讓壯世代持續的貢獻社會他已經把跟那個社會福利上次開的社會福利委員會當中他已經把這兩個事情區隔了變成兩個組一個就叫做"},{"start":4788.407,"end":4812.874,"text":"應應高齡社會對策方案這邊有15個部會在投入另外一個叫壯世代社會參與方案這邊有14個部會在參與在行政院、社福委員會當中已經把這兩個分得很清楚了各位可以去看一下新聞所以我說委員如果你不堅持一定要立法的話其實現在目前就已經在做了嘛"},{"start":4813.735,"end":4818.078,"text":"市長我可不可以問一下你剛剛說55歲以上你們是用什麼樣的科目預算去做那個55歲壯世代的什麼就業的什麼計畫你們是用什麼樣的科目去做的"},{"start":4843.231,"end":4868.046,"text":"我們有針對55歲以上特別用壯世代這樣名稱所以你們的預算也是有這樣壯世代的那個預算但是我們預算基本上勞動部的預算就是分的大概都是分就業服務職業訓練技能鑑定嘛就業服務裡面有針對特定對象跟一般的對象那中高齡45歲以上都是所謂我們的特定對象那我們特別針對55歲以上"},{"start":4870.147,"end":4893.074,"text":"這部分在特別有一個特別的措施所以我們叫55plus或壯世代或什麼都有所以就是以45歲以上你們是用那個45歲以上去我們不同的年齡層有不同的計畫在推那真的55歲確實有一個特別的計畫在做處理但是不是只有55歲以上我們才處理"},{"start":4896.666,"end":4899.847,"text":"本日協商過程公開,發言內容均已錄影並列入紀錄。"},{"start":4925.555,"end":4938.87,"text":"因人代繼續溝通取得共識,後續依立法院職權行使法第十二章相關規定,我們已請院長召開黨團協商會議,再進行協商。"}]}},{"id":"158197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158197","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711ce43bd00361ae5d95b05e405f736a88db93245063ea952ad97082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"16:03:45 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沈局長 你講一波 檢列的結果還是政府負責嘛所以等於是 等於是黑貓偷吃你殺白貓啊老百姓是白貓啊 啊這部會首長 這大官他有被用 結果你處罰也是處罰老百姓 這不公平啊 對不對 黑貓偷吃你打白貓變這樣啊"},{"start":193.064,"end":217.7,"text":"對不對,所以你這個糊弄大家啊我剛剛看了一下新聞,歐外情勒歐外情勒,說這樣審計長要抓這個五千萬結果你仔細一看,都是假因為什麼?還是政府出還是政府出所以啊,你要追到說這個錢誰不當使用那個人要把口袋的錢拿出來賠,這樣才有keeping可以做得到嗎?"},{"start":219.227,"end":229.806,"text":"這一個我們要看檢調還有看監察案整個調查結果因為我們沒有調查權你還是做不到來我問你一個東西啊要OLA SEBS"},{"start":231.044,"end":256.22,"text":"加拉丁美洲的吉加勒比海．最高的審計機關．我們國家106年．最後一次林慶榮．審計長．參加了．之後．沒有參加了．這麼重要的國際機構．拉丁美洲跟我們．很多的國家．跟我們有邦交國．而且明年又是巴拉圭．請問你要不要去．你要不要去．"},{"start":260.107,"end":279.012,"text":"報告委員這個因為去要有那個我們沒有參加上次前幾年是疫情所以大家就這一方面就停下來再來我們是去我們是發展到OECD歐美國家因為這個這個最高審計組織這個OnaSense這個是因為我們去了很多年了"},{"start":285.114,"end":311.723,"text":"你不去?我們去了很多年了這幾年都沒有啊因為去了很多年了那邊的國家的損濟狀況損濟方法我們都了解了現在我是參加我們請我的同仁到去巴黎去那個歐美去美國去參加OECD的你自己不去嗎?請問你自己不去嗎?"},{"start":312.703,"end":321.673,"text":"因為這個還是由同仁阿 年輕的同仁阿來參加為什麼林青龍就去他審計長就去阿 阿代表你不重視喔"},{"start":322.93,"end":329.231,"text":"我們現在中華民國能夠走出去的國際組織已經不多了如果能夠讓我們走出去代表我們的國家能夠走出去這是何等重要的事情"},{"start":349.835,"end":353.218,"text":"明年你要去聽說只不敢講而已我明年沒有要去都沒有要去確定沒有"},{"start":376.684,"end":389.963,"text":"我都沒有要去因為齁我認為年輕讓我們的年輕同仁阿出去的效益大於我沈記長出去沈記長不一樣阿你代表國家小看自己阿你是怕死喔"},{"start":392.439,"end":414.418,"text":"實際上這國際主持我們106年到現在都沒有參加了欸為什麼不去?當然要去啊而且去的話說不定可以用我們國號啊、立法會的簽啊或者台灣都可以用我們的名字去啊為什麼不可以?對不對這麼重要的結果我看你哈哈哈哈怎麼會這樣子呢?實際上光這一點啦"},{"start":415.419,"end":429.954,"text":"我就讓我對你的尊敬就鑑定一半了這成績長這樣不行喔不行喔來我們就看你主要的你的第二預備金我把你統計都是用你資料喔"},{"start":431.482,"end":448.075,"text":"第一奧義備金都在9月底10月開始申請可能有什麼事情不夠了錢不夠了要申請一個第一奧義備金結果欸戰爭勞坑毛坑不拉屎欸要了一大堆錢不用來來來我們看喔從110年到112年"},{"start":451.798,"end":461.088,"text":"最嚴重的是哪個單位：文化部的臺灣美術館：99.17%他要了100塊呀：99塊不用耶再來第二個單位：內政部預政署：99.6% 剩下的錢再來：法務部行政執政署："},{"start":471.78,"end":489.281,"text":"省了96%再來行政院啊行政院今天做龍太鼓來啊行政院要一堆錢結果94%沒用再來主計總署喔要了一堆錢92%沒有用沈基昌你要查查看嗎你"},{"start":490.482,"end":491.263,"text":"你們要不要查?要不要查?會"},{"start":518.438,"end":542.113,"text":"因為這個我們的：謝謝委員：這個我們的：發現一年差不多有兩：動租完以後有兩三億就保留了每年都有兩三億了就是說這幾個單位啊第二預備金是救命的錢這幾個單位啊搶錢啦放在地上都沒用你看你看喔行政院卓榮泰帶頭對不對他上一屆不是卓榮泰啦"},{"start":544.103,"end":559.713,"text":"陳、陳、陳什麼的,陳建仁,帶頭做不好的示範啊,要了100塊,只用了不到6塊,對不對,剩94天多,你看,文化部,要了100塊,用不到1塊錢,用不到1塊錢,法務部也是這樣,要100塊,用了4塊,不到4塊錢,"},{"start":567.172,"end":586.33,"text":"內政部預證署要100塊不到1塊錢用不到1塊錢欸怎麼會有這樣的單位啊要錢要5塊口袋啊5錢啊反正你放那裡結果都沒用啊搶錢兩費啊阿用錢補費會更奇怪勒委員講得很好我們會要求行政院改善"},{"start":587.731,"end":614.989,"text":"要講行政院這行政院做得不好嗎行政院做得不好嗎對不對也不是說那個應該住住法律的住住啊就是說監衛動租第二批先第一條第一款就是監衛不服使用還動租了以後還保留這個這個現象不正常什麼時候可以完成調查跟糾正什麼時候一個月內"},{"start":616.419,"end":644.81,"text":"兩個禮拜可以啦 一個月那麼好啊因為 要我 現在啊 委員要我調查 要我審計的 非常的多啊所以喔 看看很重要很重要 聽我 來來來 你是管省局長管錢怎麼使用喔結果我們這幾年 政府都說 不可以給地方政府財化法喔 你們要錢喔 怎麼樣公告來給你們廢修署啊"},{"start":645.64,"end":646.281,"text":"你看喔2021年﹐稅金剩餘2,979億"},{"start":652.52,"end":660.486,"text":"快要3000億喔2022年4993億快要5000億2023年2790億快要3000億可見這幾年我還查2020、2019每一年的稅金剩餘都是2500到5000億可見的什麼意思我都給你了封好了預算都通過了你中央之心不安把這個錢切下來"},{"start":679.521,"end":697.666,"text":"垂直分配給地方政府不是好歸好歸根本在什麼歐北亂共什麼哎呦不得了喔喔這個才挖挖一份的垂直分配中央沒有錢喔國王沒有錢喔這樣胡說八道中央每年剩的錢稅計剩餘就剩了2500到5000億之多"},{"start":702.088,"end":713.589,"text":"所以這些錢垂直分配給地方政府岸平好誰好誰岸平好誰好誰來沈機長我這樣的講話有沒有錯你告訴我有沒有錯"},{"start":714.763,"end":742.5,"text":"中央這幾年都有稅金剩餘但是地方我們查的地方112年度它的統計起來加起來也有560億的剩餘所以我們的財政在逐步改善中都會很好沒有回答我問題我問你說中央都這幾年來有2500億到5000億用不完用不完用不完那就給地方政府用"},{"start":743.48,"end":772.419,"text":"就給地方政府用啊才華娃就是這樣的概念本席提出來3000億給地方政府所以垂直分配中央給地方從這個表更能夠來強化It's about the timeIt's about the time中央你要allocation這些resources給我們的local government"},{"start":773.206,"end":784.918,"text":"這個很重要才化法要修錢在這裡錢在哪裡在這裡不是亂講一通什麼這個就沒有錢了國外沒有錢每年都剩了2500億到5000億你看2022年剩了快5000億了"},{"start":790.167,"end":803.216,"text":"錢用不完啦!錢用不完啦!所以才劃滑!垂直分配!中央給地方2500億到5000億!天經地義!天公地道!你說對不對?"},{"start":806.193,"end":827.573,"text":"財務要考量中央還有地方的財政狀況剛剛講中央現在不錯地方也不錯但是在劃分的時候錢和事務也要一起考量有時候一個龍水路的問題它會跑到中央來"},{"start":828.634,"end":843.081,"text":"沈記長我問你都紮紮實實的問題啊你回答我都是天馬行空啊都歐北這樣歐陵勢動啊勢戰勢戰不能這樣子啦沈記長最後一題啊我們來看喔政府的潛在負債啊你看多嚴重啊勞保12兆我還客氣的救治的軍工教3.2兆"},{"start":854.795,"end":881.986,"text":"公務人員退伏基金2.9兆公保700多億、軍保200多億、農保1.2兆1.2億、中央地方政府19.2兆中央都沒有錢了,哪裡有錢來補助臺電啊臺電2000億砍著啊,天經地義而且臺電的經濟部長啊還居然說什麼,ㄟ柏齊萬斤啊,我可以去借錢我可以借錢你是不是贊成2000億不要給他"},{"start":883.012,"end":909.071,"text":"他有幫他去借錢了他借很多錢了他說他去借錢了他已經借很多錢了他給他借再都不愁再都不借因為他大家都就是能源對國家相當重要大家以國家整體為念今天我問你因為我時間快到了是不是因為我們錯誤的人權政策讓我們台電虧損能力對吧這句話"},{"start":911.772,"end":912.974,"text":"一個虧損啦,就已經錯綜複雜了,包括了..."}]},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（16時3分）謝謝韓院長。主席，以及各位先進，有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，看你今天精神不錯。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員都給我鼓勵。"],["賴委員士葆：看起來很有氣魄，你這把大刀砍得滿順的！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這句話你從以前就講到現在。"],["賴委員士葆：今天從開始到現在，講一個大家所關心的就業安定基金問題，你說被不法使用，有五千多萬要追回，請問你怎麼追回？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，因為不是基金用途，不合基金用途。"],["賴委員士葆：對，所以請問你怎麼追回？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會修正減列。"],["賴委員士葆：不是減列的問題，而是誰要負責這筆錢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為可能……有時候我們來看這件事情，修辦公室可能有需要，或者是做某一個事情需要，我們整個……"],["賴委員士葆：不是啦！現在我問的重點是這一筆錢是要叫勞動部減列掉，還是叫使用的許銘春賠？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個是這樣，因為我們有的會送監察院，有的會送檢調，我們會看檢調、監察院最後的處理結果。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答問題啦！到底是要個人賠還是要單位賠？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個初步我們會先做減列……"],["賴委員士葆：減列？那就是單位賠嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：放在就業安定基金的，不合用途，我們減列……"],["賴委員士葆：你減列……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：到時候我們會請勞動部說明。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你這樣是糊弄大家啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦！不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：這筆錢等於還是政府出啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：被不當使用後還是政府出啊！我們要有一個東西，就是遭不當使用後，用的人要賠，這個比較重要啊！如果是政府賠，就像是左手、右手，這個政府、那個政府，等於都沒人賠啊！要人賠，誰使用、誰不當使用，那個人要賠，你同意嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們要看財務責任是誰的，再來做……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你同意嗎？個人要賠，不當使用就要賠！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為賠不賠是要看整個……"],["賴委員士葆：不然你怎麼追回？你等於沒有追回啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：……整個審計發現，你說這個是他個人的……"],["賴委員士葆：你等於沒有追回嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：當然我們就要剔除、就要減列。"],["賴委員士葆：來，審計長，你說了大半天，減列的結果還是政府負責嘛，所以等於是……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：未必！"],["賴委員士葆：等於是黑貓偷吃，你殺白貓啊！老百姓是白貓，這些部會首長、這些大官胡亂使用，結果你處罰也是處罰老百姓，這不公平啊！對不對？黑貓偷吃，你打白貓，變成這樣了，所以你這個是糊弄大家啊！哇，我剛看了一下新聞，哇！好厲害！說審計長要抓這5,000萬，結果仔細一看，都是假的，因為還是政府出，還是政府出，所以你要追到這個錢是誰不當使用，那個人就要把口袋的錢拿出來賠，這樣才有氣魄，可以做得到嗎？可以做得到嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們要看檢調，還有監察院的整個調查結果，因為我們沒有調查權。"],["賴委員士葆：可以做得到嗎？你還是做不到啊！來，我問你一個東西，OLACEFS（拉丁美洲暨加勒比海最高審計機關組織），我們國家最後一次參加是106年林慶隆審計長去的，之後就沒有參加了，這麼重要的國際機構，拉丁美洲有很多國家跟我們有邦交，而且明年又是在巴拉圭舉辦，請問你要不要去？你要不要去？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，我們沒有參加，前幾年是因為疫情，所以大家在這方面就停下來……"],["賴委員士葆：疫情過了好幾年了，疫情！你是在牽拖！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：再來，我們是發展到OECD、歐美國家，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：那你要不要去？我問你要不要去？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個最高審計組織……"],["賴委員士葆：OLACEFS。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：OLACEFS這個是屬於……"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要去？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們去了很多年了。"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要去？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們去了很多年了。"],["賴委員士葆：這幾年都沒有啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為去了很多年了，那一邊的國家的審計狀況、審計方法我們都瞭解了……"],["賴委員士葆：喔，所以不去了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：現在我是請我的同仁去巴黎、歐美、美國參加OECD的審計人員聯盟……"],["賴委員士葆：你自己不去嗎？請問你自己不去嗎？請問你自己不去嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個還是由年輕的同仁來參加……"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼？為什麼林慶隆就去？他當審計長就去啊，代表你不重視喔！我們好不容易……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒關係，每個審計長的作法都不一樣，如果作法都一樣，那就……每個人有每個人的作法。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，現在我們中華民國能夠走出去的國際組織已經不多了，OLACEFS這個組織如果能夠讓我們走出去，代表我們的國家能夠走出去，這是何等重要的事情啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：你身為審計長，應該代表國家走出去，去參加這樣的一個組織才對啊！我所聽到的是你……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員的鼓勵。"],["賴委員士葆：我是聽說你明年要去，對不對？明年你要去嗎？聽說你要去。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：明年，欸……"],["賴委員士葆：明年你要去，聽說，只是不敢講而已。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我明年沒有要去，連OECD也都沒有要去。"],["賴委員士葆：確定沒有喔？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：確定沒有，我都沒有要去，因為我認為讓我們年輕同仁出去的效益大於我審計長出去。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長不一樣啊，你代表國家耶，你小看自己了，你是「怕死」喔？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：嘿嘿……"],["賴委員士葆：「怕死」喔？不能這樣子，實際上這個國際組織我們自106年後到現在都沒有參加耶，為什麼不去？當然要去啊，而且去的話說不定可以用我們的國號啊，The Republic of China或者臺灣都可以，用我們的名字去啊，為什麼不可以？這麼重要的組織，結果我看你「憨憨」，怎麼會這樣子呢？審計長，光這一點就讓我對你的尊敬減低一半喔！審計長這樣不行喔！不行喔！","來，我們再看你主要的，你的第二預備金，我做了統計，都是用你們的資料，第二預備金都在9月底、10月開始申請，可能有什麼事情錢不夠了，要申請第二預備金，結果是占著茅坑不拉屎，要了一大堆錢不用！來，我們看喔，從110年到112年的統計資料，最嚴重的是哪個單位啊？文化部的台灣美術館，保留比率99.47%，等於它要了100塊，有99塊不用耶！再來，第二個單位是內政部役政署，保留比率99.6%，再來是法務部行政執行署保留了96%，再來是行政院，行政院今天卓榮泰沒來，行政院要了一堆錢，結果94%沒用，再來是主計總處，要了一堆錢，結果92%沒有用。審計長，你要查看看嗎？這個是亂用大家的錢耶……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員……"],["賴委員士葆：聽我講完。審計等於是第二預備金啊，這個錢我要、那個錢我要，放在口袋裡熱乎乎的，結果都沒使用，怎麼會這個樣子呢？怎麼會這個樣子呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：依照預算法，動支第二預備金就是經費不敷……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！他們去要錢耶……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是這經費還保留下來，顯然這個有問題，我們會給行政院注意到這個事情……"],["賴委員士葆：你們要不要查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：會查。"],["賴委員士葆：你們要不要糾正？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，這個我們也發現到了，一年差不多動支完以後有2億、3億的保留，每年都有2億、3億的保留。"],["賴委員士葆：對，都有保留，也就是說，第二預備金本來是救命的錢，但這幾個單位搶錢，但是卻放在口袋裡沒有使用。你看喔，行政院卓榮泰帶頭，對不對？上一屆不是卓榮泰啦，是陳建仁帶頭做不好的示範，要了100塊，使用不到6塊……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：動支第二預備金就是……"],["賴委員士葆：保留了百分之九十四點多，文化部要了100塊，用不到1塊錢，用不到1塊錢！法務部也是這樣，要100塊，用不到4塊錢，內政部役政署要100塊，用不到1塊錢，怎麼會有這樣的單位啊！要錢要來放口袋啊，錢就放這裡、放哪裡，結果都不使用，搶錢很會啊，用錢不會，怎麼會這麼奇怪呢！要查！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員講得很好，我們會要求行政院改善。"],["賴委員士葆：要叫行政院改善，這是行政院做得不好嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：啊？"],["賴委員士葆：行政院做得不好嘛，對不對？你不敢講不好……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：也不是，應該是說，在法律的制度，動支第二預備金的理由，第一條第一款就是經費不敷使用……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！不夠錢了再用啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但動支了以後還保留……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，還保留，莫名其妙！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個現象不正常。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以完成調查跟糾正？什麼時候？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一個月內。"],["賴委員士葆：兩個禮拜就可以了，還一個月，「你嘛好了」！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為現在委員要我調查、要我審計的項目非常多，所以看看……"],["賴委員士葆：那我們再看一個很重要很重要的題目，來，我們來看喔，你是審計長，是管錢怎麼使用的，結果我們看到這幾年，政府都說錢不可以給地方政府，說財劃法怎麼樣、你們要錢怎麼樣，說的好像要火燒房子了！好像快要火燒房子了！你看喔，2021年歲計賸餘2,979億，快要3,000億；2022年是4,993億，快要5,000億；2023年是2,790億，快要3,000億，可見得這幾年，我還往前查了2020年及2019年，每一年的歲計賸餘都是2,500億到5,000億，可見得什麼意思？我都給你，預算都通過了，你中央執行不完，把這個錢切下來垂直分配給地方政府，不是「好勢好勢」（恰到好處）？跟人家在什麼「烏白亂講」，什麼不得了喔，財劃法一部分的垂直分配，中央沒有錢了，國防部沒有錢了，你在胡說八道！中央每年歲計賸餘剩的錢就有2,500到5,000億之多，所以這些錢垂直分配給地方政府，不是「好勢好勢」？不是「好勢好勢」？來，審計長，我這樣的講法有沒有錯，你告訴我，有沒有錯？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：中央這幾年都有歲計賸餘，這是確實，但是地方，我們查的結果，112年度地方的統計起來，加起來也有560億的賸餘，所以我們的財政在逐步改善中，都會很好。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題，我問你說，中央這幾年來有2,500億到5,000億用不完、用不完、用不完，那就給地方政府用，就給地方政府用啊！財劃法就是這樣的概念，本席提出來3,000億給地方政府，所以垂直分配中央給地方，從這個表更能夠來強化It's about the time.It's about the time.中央要allocation這些resources給我們的local government，這個很重要。財劃法要修，錢在這裡；錢在哪裡？在這裡。不是亂講一通，什麼這個就沒有錢了，國防沒有錢，每年都剩了2,500億到5,000億，你看2022年剩了快5,000億，錢用不完啦！錢用不完啦！所以財劃法垂直分配中央給地方2,500億到5,000億天經地義、天公地道，你說對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：財劃法要考量中央還有地方的財政狀況，剛剛講中央現在不錯，地方也不錯……"],["賴委員士葆：對，中央要省錢，地方要省錢……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是在劃分的時候，錢和事務也要一起考量，有時候一個農水路的問題，它會跑到中央來耶！"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，我問你的都是扎扎實實的問題，你回答我的都是天馬行空，都「黑龍繞桌」，繞這繞那。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦，不會啦……"],["賴委員士葆：不能這樣子啦！審計長啊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們互動都有四、五年了，應該是……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一題，我們來看政府的潛在負債，你看多嚴重，勞保12兆，我還客氣的，舊制的軍公教3.2兆，公務人員退撫基金3.9兆，公保七百多億，軍保兩百多億，農保1.2億，中央地方政府潛藏負債總計19.2兆，中央都沒有錢了，哪裡有錢來補助台電啦！撥補台電的2,000億砍了天經地義，而且主管台電的經濟部長還居然說什麼？沒有錢沒關係啦，我可以去借錢，我可以借錢！你是不是贊成2,000億不要給他，他有辦法去借錢，去給他借。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他借很多錢了。"],["賴委員士葆：他說他要去借錢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他已經借很多錢了。"],["賴委員士葆：他要借讓他再借，債多不愁，債多不愁。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為能源對國家相當重要，大家要以國家整體為念。"],["賴委員士葆：今天我問你，因為我時間快到了，是不是因為我們錯誤的能源政策讓台電虧損累累，這句話對嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：虧損的原因錯綜複雜，包括了是不是有不經濟支出……"],["賴委員士葆：欸，你怎麼都不按照實際來回答呢？「黑龍繞桌」不可以這樣子啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦！不會啦！都跟你說實在的……"],["賴委員士葆：便宜的核能不用，造成今天這麼大的虧損，不要給這個2,000億，很簡單。謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝賴委員。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的詢答。","報告院會，112年度中央政府總決算審核報告案之諮詢，已詢答完畢。","我們非常感謝陳審計長及審計部所有列席的官員進行列席報告答詢。","現在作以下之決定：","一、「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」案，交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查。","二、將各委員發言紀錄及書面諮詢函送審計部，請就未答復部分予以書面答復。","三、已提出之書面諮詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","繼續處理復議案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}},{"id":"158196","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158196","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711ca8c7c5e4f4985d34b05e405f736a88db93245063ea952ad9c89ebdc37aa605965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"15:46:53 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主席謝謝 麻煩請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長"},{"start":20.133,"end":44.22,"text":"好,審計長,獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨、使命,對不對?所以本席15分鐘跟您就教來討論一下首先,之前你在委員會裡面有承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案還有就業安定基金提出調查並且提出報告請教,什麼時候?什麼時候會提出來?"},{"start":45.959,"end":66.469,"text":"當時答應都是一個月,現在年底到了就是一個月,因為當時11月,像那個調查我們已經有初步了,那個霸凌啊,因為既然要做了,要把它做好,我是全國包括中央包括地方啊,我開始整個在盤,因為這個"},{"start":68.81,"end":86.517,"text":"整合盤點我們各公部門有霸凌的狀況你是調查去給這一個部門的單位主管說你們部門有沒有霸凌還是針對我們公務員不一樣喔因為過去勞動部第一次調查報告出來讓我們發現說根本就是關關相護啊"},{"start":87.777,"end":108.163,"text":"利益良善．沒有直接霸凌．後來被全民華人的邪要求之後．才做第二次的調查報告．部長離開之後．調查報告就變成是真相了．第二次的調查報告出來之後．就變成是．有直接霸凌．有從屬關係．沒有利益良善．那一樣 沈記長我們最重要啊"},{"start":109.025,"end":135.584,"text":"注度發生這麼大的事情我們要把注度把前軸把注度整個把它盤出來哪一個地方切了規範哪一個地方切了注度有沒有訂相關的保障措施我們會就這方面做全盤的瞭解全盤瞭解所以年底以前會把這報告給出來會年底以前國人都聽到了那另外"},{"start":136.345,"end":154.02,"text":"不管是外交部、交通部、速發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況尤其我們有看到這個衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件居然被人家認定是說是要求深蹲福利挺身是鼓勵沒有強迫"},{"start":154.921,"end":175.717,"text":"我先請教沈記長你看到這樣的狀況這樣子的樣態算不算霸凌?算不算職場霸凌?因為這個大概規範不明確所以我們要把整個制度還有整個把它清楚的理一理所以大概會要求相關部門包括考試院包括人事總署對這方面"},{"start":176.357,"end":176.497,"text":"要規範明確"},{"start":201.414,"end":221.32,"text":"霸凌的樣態非常多就如同性騷一樣啊真的被受到這樣子的一個待遇如果說真的心聲不舒服親懵懵程度上他可能就構成霸凌如同校園裡面有霸凌事件有什麼以前我們還有看到說有一些這種學生他要求你說站在那邊唱國歌有沒有"},{"start":222.236,"end":240.05,"text":"這某種程度上也是霸凌啊或是說現在我們看到說要求你深蹲要求你福利挺身欸好端端的我在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇而且因為上對下的一個關係而要求這樣的狀況這某種程度上就是構成霸凌但衛福部任長不是"},{"start":240.891,"end":256.126,"text":"不能造成說有些單位認為是霸凌有些單位不是霸凌那這樣子全國就沒有一致的標準了所以沈紀長您的報告裡面出來會把這些霸凌的樣態以及標準給羅列清楚是不是第一個我要求我們的同仁去看國外的狀況第二個"},{"start":258.588,"end":275.903,"text":"校園的霸凌我們也要了解因為校園的霸凌也常常會發生我們也要了解校園的霸凌再來我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌因為國軍是高度嚴格管理所以這些霸凌的從這裡來看我們這個公務的一個霸凌我們是寧願從"},{"start":283.329,"end":300.918,"text":"把這個標準認定清楚標準我們希望單位裡面去把這些標準訂得合理合情合理合情好我們國人期待我們年底在不到兩個禮拜的時間能夠有一個獨立廉政專業創新的審計報告再來"},{"start":304.895,"end":319.956,"text":"市長一樣想請教就業安定基金很多剛剛林德福委員也請教過了本次也聽到你講是說當然要求應該勞動部要做相關的一個規範嘛我就提一點啦我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制一國多制嗎"},{"start":321.121,"end":343.515,"text":"不應該吧?不應該,因為同意的附屬單位一算足情在這一次的就案令基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況就是當他使用了基金去做電子採購即便他12點裡面認定沈議長之前講是說這個所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳但是實際上就案令基金裡面是沒有這樣規範不過"},{"start":345.496,"end":359.618,"text":"至少省紀部這邊已經要處理可是我們要關心的是什麼關心的是說當初在救生安定基金使用的時候它其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上面來把這列表給列出來"},{"start":360.367,"end":380.774,"text":"他畢竟是說要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購的大水庫裡面你要特定的標案特定的關鍵字你才有辦法找到但是文化部其他部會有些部會的就相關的基金使用他的電子採購的基金使用項目他就直接羅列在他的官方網站上面"},{"start":381.474,"end":395.326,"text":"所以如果說您剛剛講跟林德福委員講是說要求他們應該要公開透明的話是不是能夠先要求所有的部會基金使用只要是電子採購的部分都應該羅列在他們的官方網站您怎麼說"},{"start":396.907,"end":417.795,"text":"委員是這樣剛剛我先澄清我在委員會談的那個是我們看到他是科目是出在正義宣導不是我說他那個他用正義宣導來解釋來第二個啊我們剛剛委員那講我們查到他沒採購"},{"start":419.192,"end":433.502,"text":"他直接用那個開口契約他開口契約契約就是文憲、鄭麗仙還有一個大包裡面然後其中就要求廠商去處理了對不對那這樣子就更難防範了這我們是採購異常我們送檢調、送監察案"},{"start":437.065,"end":458.822,"text":"好那再拉回來現在所有的就業安定基金也好或說相關基金的使用因為不只是農業勞動部啊農業部其實也有類似的狀況啊我們之前有講過是說上農產品雞蛋當時雞蛋補助的時候111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元"},{"start":460.603,"end":476.341,"text":"但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面其實它針對的是關稅條項與否以及開放進口而遭受損害但國內的雞蛋其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感"},{"start":477.162,"end":501.313,"text":"所以他其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯好可是我們現在要求的是說所有的基金的使用各部會不能變成是部長的小金庫所以如果說有動動到所謂的電子採購的部分的話是不是應該要求所有部會他們要羅列在他們官網上面依照採購法的規定這些如果超過一定的金額都要上採購網"},{"start":502.193,"end":502.293,"text":"那個委員這個"},{"start":525.134,"end":529.399,"text":"我同意委員的意思好謝謝那沈議長我們要要求各部會做吧對啊當然"},{"start":544.736,"end":570.148,"text":"什麼時候能夠做到?這個我們回去啊我們查核完以後啊剛剛講了像那個農委會的那些啊我們也都像有一些不合規定的我們也都把它檢列啦這所以給委員知道我們農委會也檢了3億多喔好 沈記長剛剛有特別講到說會要求各部會把相關的各部會用到的電子採購放入在他們官網"},{"start":571.274,"end":597.228,"text":"以招供性也讓全民能夠檢視我想預算現在是預算審查會期預算當用則用當審則審我不會要人家說這個要馬跑又要馬不吃草但是如果說不該花的費用我們一毛也不能浪費我想這是我們共同的立場來沈記長既然接下來第三點剛剛本席也特別聽您的報告請您在這次有特別提到說政府的打詐的部分"},{"start":597.948,"end":620.567,"text":"但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實為什麼因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來講節節升高但其中我記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您我這一次再請教您因為這代表是說我們審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核我們行政部門的一個行政效率因為112年的時候我們的財損是88億"},{"start":627.096,"end":648.697,"text":"有37000多件但到113年也就是今年到10月底就已經高達7萬多件並且財損274億三倍之多詐騙的案件是兩倍財損是三倍那去年到今年為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長"},{"start":649.81,"end":655.715,"text":"如果說是經濟成長我當然很拍拍手啊但不是啊是詐騙案件的成長啊是財損案件的成長啊"},{"start":657.686,"end":683.671,"text":"委員非常謝謝我們第一個委員這樣玩以後我們114年我們會專案查核就是查核他這些事物都有一個真實性透明剛剛那個我看出來政府已經面對他所以他比較公開透明所以之前政府沒面對之前政府不夠公開透明"},{"start":685.672,"end":697.982,"text":"那我是大概沒有說那麼第一個詐騙的情況還是非常嚴重非常嚴重非常嚴重是一個國家社會的一個很大的問題非常嚴重我們審計部一定會強化包括委員講的那些統計輸入好 審計長現在疫苗版跑出500多億了"},{"start":708.411,"end":729.918,"text":"是啊那500多億我們看前幾年因為詐騙案件不是你我大家共同關心我們生活在2300萬人生活在這塊土地上我們都希望政府拿出具體辦法但是具體辦法先決條件第一就是面對問題面對問題才能解決問題但過去看起來全部都是美化數字造假數字"},{"start":731.979,"end":760.462,"text":"說謊的數字啊所以沈記長您剛有提到什麼時候可以提出來檢視過去為什麼過去的數字跟現在的數字天壤之別因為這樣啊 鮑委員我們是每年查完以後會會有一個總結算會有審核報告出來我們是納入這個總結算的審核報告什麼時候 今年年底嗎明年的我們明年的7月底會把總結算審核報告編好"},{"start":761.383,"end":789.881,"text":"沈記長是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣現在已經看到了你剛也講了儀表板500多億沈記長去年你今天的決算報告去年是88億今年儀表板是500億差了5倍欸那5倍這樣子的數字不用去了解跟調查嗎要啊對"},{"start":791.664,"end":820.961,"text":"那你跟我講說明年7月才能夠做出來那這個是我的審核報告的一個這個能不能先讓國人了解一下就像您剛講的我們要調查全國的公部門的霸凌事件能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解到底為什麼會有那麼大的一個落差是真的今年詐騙太猖狂太氾濫還是過去的數字是造假的過去88億是沒有符合現實的委員這樣給我三個億"},{"start":824.434,"end":851.167,"text":"三個月對沈議長您說的我希望真的能夠拿出獨立客觀的調查報告最後斑斑有鮮乳農業部農業部這個政策我特別翻了一下我們的決算報告其實我們審計單位已經有提醒農業部因為我們有看到的是說審計部的報告裡面國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳是最高有差到21塊的價格"},{"start":852.788,"end":881.685,"text":"那如果說2025年紐西蘭的進口液態乳﹐零關稅上路的話﹐其實會衝擊影響﹐所以省紀部報告裡面﹐已經要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型﹐以因應衝擊﹐我給予肯定﹐可是當農業部提出來的一個做法﹐他用113年到116年的﹐養牛產業全面升級轉型計劃﹐裡面的其中一環﹐一年要花15億的公務預算﹐做什麼﹐"},{"start":882.383,"end":898.155,"text":"做一個班班有先辱結果我不知道沈機長有沒有看到最近從9月開學了還沒有辦法拿到10月大家先辱之亂11月農業部部長出來講是說如果學校真的沒有辦法配合的話可以不要配合"},{"start":899.167,"end":921.399,"text":"甚至我們有一些縣市政府的學校大家直接講啊要班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧不然鮮乳來那個天氣熱一下就壞掉天氣冷你要怎麼樣讓學童能夠拿回去這都是一個問題好15億的預算到現在執行了狀況真的是讓大家天怒人怨啊"},{"start":922.399,"end":948.262,"text":"這樣子的一個政策錯誤的部分有沒有檢討的必要我們審計單位能夠怎麼樣來把它導正我們近期會這樣進行查核瞭解近期會查核瞭解希望做一個事情效益非常重要配套也非常重要是就是當初連審計長你都會提出來結果沒想到農業專業教育專業完全不知道沒有配套教育部雙手一攤然後就是把問題丟給地縣的學校老師"},{"start":949.683,"end":956.346,"text":"來,什麼時候能夠跟國人有一個具體的瞭解?我們近期會去,大概會給我三個月。獨立、嚴正、專業、創新,就是站在人民的角度。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（15時47分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨使命，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席用15分鐘跟您就教、討論一下，首先，之前你在委員會承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案，還有就業安定基金提出調查，並且提出報告，請教什麼時候？什麼時候會提出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：當時答應是一個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月，年底到了就是一個月喔！因為當時是11月。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，調查我們已經有初步了，至於霸凌，既然要做就要把它做好，我是全國包括中央跟地方，開始整個在盤，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：整個盤點我們各公部門的霸凌狀況？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的調查，是問這個部門的單位主管該部門有沒有霸凌？還是針對我們公務員？這是不一樣喔！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為過去勞動部第一次的調查報告出來，讓我們發現根本就是官官相護，說「立意良善」、「沒有直接霸凌」，後來全民譁然，而且要求之後才做第二次的調查報告。部長離開之後，調查報告就變成是真相了，第二次調查報告出來之後就變成是有直接霸凌，有從屬關係，沒有立意良善。一樣，審計長……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們最重要是制度，發生這麼大的事情，我們要把制度、把權責整個盤出來，哪一個地方缺了規範？哪一個地方缺了制度？有沒有訂定相關的保障措施？我們會就這方面做全盤的了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以年底以前會把這報告交出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，年底以前，國人都聽到了。另外，不僅是外交部、交通部、數發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況，尤其我們看到衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件，居然還認定要求深蹲和伏地挺身是鼓勵，沒有強迫！我想請教審計長，你看到這樣的狀況、這樣子的樣態，算不算霸凌？算不算職場霸凌？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為規範不明確，所以我們要把整個制度清楚的理一理，所以我們大概會要求相關部門，包括考試院，包括人事總處，對這方面……"],["洪委員孟楷：要規範明確。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：還有權責，看是誰負責這個機關，像考試院有保障培訓會這些，我們同仁都已經到這些機關開始查核並了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，審計長，本席要求的是，希望規範要明確，霸凌的樣態非常多，就如同性騷一樣，受到這樣的待遇，如果真的心生不舒服，其實某種程度可能就構成霸凌。如同校園裡面的霸凌事件有什麼？以前我們還看到一些學生要求你站在那邊唱國歌，有沒有？這某種程度上也是霸凌啊！或是現在我們看到要求你深蹲、要求你伏地挺身，好端端的在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇？而且因為上對下的關係而這樣要求，某種程度上就是構成霸凌，但衛福部竟然講這不是！不能造成有些單位認為是霸凌，有些單位不是霸凌，那全國就沒有一致的標準了。所以審計長，您的報告會把這些霸凌的樣態及標準羅列清楚，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：第一個，我要求我們同仁去看國外的狀況；第二個，針對校園的霸凌也要了解，因為校園霸凌也常常會發生，我們也要了解校園的霸凌；再來，我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌，因為國軍是高度嚴格管理，從這裡來看公務界的霸凌，我們寧願從嚴，把這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：標準認定清楚。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們希望各單位把這些標準訂得合理、合情。"],["洪委員孟楷：合理、合情，好，我們國人期待年底，剩不到兩個禮拜的時間，能夠有一個獨立、廉政、專業、創新的審計報告。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，審計長，本席想請教就業安定基金，剛剛林德福委員也請教過了，本席也聽到你講：當然應該要要求勞動部做相關的規範。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我就提一點，我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制、一國多制嗎？不應該吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不應該，有一個附屬單位預算執行要點。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，在這一次的就業安定基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況，就是當他使用基金去做電子採購，即便12點裡面認定……審計長之前講的，所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳，但是實際上就業安定基金裡面沒有這樣規範；不過，至少審計部這邊已經要處理，可是我們關心的是什麼？關心的是當初在就業安定基金使用的時候，其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上把這個列表出來，變成要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購大水庫裡面，要是特定的標案、特定的關鍵字才有辦法找到；但是文化部、其他部會的一些相關基金使用，他們電子採購的基金使用項目就直接羅列在官方網站上面。如果您剛剛跟林德福委員講的是應該要要求他們公開透明，是不是能夠先要求所有部會在基金使用部分，只要是電子採購都應該羅列在他們的官方網站，您怎麼說？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員，是這樣的，我先澄清我在委員會談的，是因為我們看到他的科目是在政令宣導項下，而不是我說他是那個；第二個……"],["洪委員孟楷：是他用政令宣導來解釋。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：第二個，剛剛委員講的，我們查到他沒採購，他直接用開口契約去做文宣、政令宣導……"],["洪委員孟楷：他用一個大包，然後其中就要求廠商去處理了，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那這樣子就更難防範了啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那就是採購異常，我們送檢調、送監察院。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那再拉回來，現在所有的就業安定基金也好，或是相關基金的使用，因為不只是勞動部，農業部其實也有類似的狀況，我們之前有講過，像農產品雞蛋，當時雞蛋補助的時候，111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元，但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面，其實它針對的是關稅調降與否，以及開放進口而遭受損害。針對國內的雞蛋，其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感，所以它其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯。可是我們現在要求的是，各部會所有基金的使用，不能變成是部長的小金庫，所以如果是有動到所謂電子採購的部分，是不是應該要求所有部會要羅列在他們的官網上面？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：依照採購法的規定，如果超過一定的金額，都是要上採購網。"],["洪委員孟楷：都要上採購網？不是！審計長，你沒有聽懂我的意思，的確，都要上採購網，但是採購網是所有部會集合在那邊，會變成我就可以隱藏在採購網的大森林裡面，我們現在要問的是，能不能像文化部，把他們自己文化部相關基金的電子採購羅列在他們的官方網站上面？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員，如果做成決議，各部會就可以來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：這本來就應該要求的啊！不然你剛剛跟林德福委員說的要公開透明是什麼意思呢？公開透明的具體作為就是這樣啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我同意委員的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。審計長，我們會要求各部會做吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！當然！"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠做到？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們回去查核完了以後，且剛剛講了，像農委會的那些，甚至有一些不合規定的，我們也都把它減列了，所以也讓委員知道，針對農委會我們也減了三億多。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，審計長剛剛有特別講到，會要求各部會把相關會用到的電子採購，放入他們的官網，以昭公信，也讓全民能夠檢視。現在是預算審查會期，預算當用則用、當省則省，我不會要馬兒跑，又要馬兒不吃草，但是如果是不該花的費用，我們一毛也不能浪費，我想這是我們共同的立場。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！對！對！"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，接下來是第三點，剛剛本席也特別聽了您的報告，其實您在這一次有特別提到政府打詐的部分，但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實，為什麼？因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來看，節節升高，記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您，這一次我再請教您，因為這代表的是審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核行政部門的行政效率。112年的時候，我們的財損是88億，有三萬七千多件；但到113年，也就是今年，到10月底就已經高達七萬多件，並且財損274億，有三倍之多。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：詐騙案件數增加兩倍，財損是三倍，從去年到今年，為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長？如果是經濟成長，我當然是拍拍手，但不是如此而是詐騙案件的成長、是財損案件的成長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：非常謝謝委員，第一個，委員提問完以後，114年我們會專案查核，就是查核這些統計數字的真實性以及是否透明，剛剛提的那個，我可以看出來，政府已經面對它，所以它比較公開透明，因為打詐儀表板……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以之前政府沒面對？之前政府不夠公開透明？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我大概沒有說那麼……第一個，詐騙的情況還是非常嚴重……"],["洪委員孟楷：非常嚴重。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是國家社會一個很大的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常嚴重。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們審計部一定會強化，包括委員講的那些統計數字，像現在儀表板都跑出五百多億了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！有五百多億，我們來看前幾年，因為詐騙案件是你我大家共同關心的，我們2,300萬人生活在這塊土地上，都希望政府拿出具體辦法，但是具體辦法的先決條件，第一就是面對問題，面對問題才能解決問題，但過去看起來全部都是美化的數字、造假的數字、說謊的數字，所以就審計長剛剛提到的，請問什麼時候可以提出來？就是檢視為什麼過去的數字跟現在數字有天壤之別？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們每年查完以後會有一個總決算審核報告出來，我們會納入這個總決算的審核報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候？今年年底嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們明年的7月底會把總決算審核報告編好。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣呢？現在已經看到了，你剛剛也講了儀表板五百多億……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是我們審計的流程。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，你今天的決算報告提到，去年是88億，今年儀表板是500億，差了五倍！五倍的數字差不用了解跟調查嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：但你跟我說明年7月才能做出來？會不會太慢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我的審核報告的一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能先讓國人了解一下？就像您剛剛講的，要調查全國公部門的霸凌事件，所以能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解，到底為什麼會有那麼大的落差？是今年詐騙真的太猖狂、太氾濫，還是過去的數字造假，過去的88億沒有符合現實？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員，給我三個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：三個月？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，您說的，我希望真的能夠拿出獨立、客觀的調查報告。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後是農業部的班班有鮮乳。農業部的這項政策，我特別翻了一下決算報告，發現審計單位已經提醒農業部，因為我們看到審計部在報告裡面提到，國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳的價格最高差到21塊，如果2025年紐西蘭進口液態乳零關稅上路，其實會造成衝擊影響。所以審計部在報告裡已要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型，以因應衝擊，這點我給予肯定。可是農業部提出來的作法，卻是用113年到116年養牛產業全面升級轉型計畫裡面的其中一環，一年花15億公務預算來做什麼？做班班有鮮乳。不知道審計長有沒有看到，9月開學還沒有辦法拿到，10月爆發鮮乳之亂，11月農業部部長出來講說，如果學校真的沒有辦法配合，可以不要配合！甚至有一些縣市政府、學校直接講，在班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧，不然鮮乳來，天氣熱一下就壞掉；天氣冷要怎麼樣讓學童拿回去？這些都是問題。好，15億的預算執行了，現在狀況真的是天怒人怨，這樣一個錯誤政策有沒有檢討的必要？審計單位能怎麼樣來導正？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們近期將進行查核了解，我們希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：近期會查核了解？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：做事情的效益非常重要，配套也非常重要！"],["洪委員孟楷：是！當初連審計長都提出來了，結果沒想到農業專業、教育專業完全不知道，沒有配套，教育部還雙手一攤，把問題丟給第一線的學校老師！來，什麼時候能讓國人有具體了解？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們近期會去，大概也給我三個月時間。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，拜託！我再講一下，審計必須獨立、廉政、專業、創新，所以你就是要站在人民的角度來監督行政部門，拜託！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的詢問，謝謝審計長的詢答。","向院會報告，現在在我們議場二樓的來賓是來自美國東部跨州的州議員訪問團，Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來登記第8位伍麗華委員之諮詢以書面提出，請審計部書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe書面諮詢：","案由：本席長期關原住民就業狀況，在第10屆立法委員任內，經多次質詢勞動部落實就業服務法規定，現在可以看到多個縣市內原住民族人口達2萬人以上地區，已陸續成立原住民公立就業服務機構，讓族人「有地方找工作」。不過，從各項數據觀察，近年原住民族失業率雖有所下降，但家庭平均收入及可支配所得仍明顯低於全國平均水平，顯示出原住民仍處在結構性之經濟不平等。因此本席要求針對如何增強原住民在勞動市場中之競爭力，以及相關主管機關如何積極協助以改善原住民就業狀況，於兩個月內提供書面報告。","說明：","一、原住民族委員會「112年原住民族就業狀況調查」結果觀察，原住民族失業率自98年起逐年有所下降，不過家庭年平均收入仍遠低於全體家庭，數據中也顯示，有酬就業者中有11.47%平均月薪「未滿2萬元」。","二、再從原民會發布的110年台灣原住民族經濟狀況調查，分析原住民族家庭之收入來源結構發現，原住民族倚賴薪資收入之程度雖有下降，仍遠高於全體家庭。","三、行政院主計總處「家庭收支調查報告」，推算原住民族家庭於我國全體家庭所處之經濟地位，能看出有33.84%的原住民族家庭相對應全體家庭最低所得組，顯見原住民族對照全體家庭之經濟地位，呈現相對弱勢。","綜上所述，從近年原住民就業情形，原住民與全體國民相較，在家庭平均收入、薪資仰賴程度等統計數據上，仍存有明顯差距。本席建議政府各相關主管部會應積極協助，以改善原住民族就業狀況，彌補結構性之差異。"],["主席：接下來請登記第9號賴士葆委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}},{"id":"158195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158195","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711c7cf807c685d3c918b05e405f736a88db82411c1dea8c2d76f3b915669f50d0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"15:31:02 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要中選會開始檢討陳主委中選會檢討沒有用啦 官官相護啦我認為說 這個一定要有作為今天這是一個案例喔因為你今天要是亂花人民的血換錢 不應該花的結果到最後法院也判決"},{"start":222.116,"end":247.942,"text":"就20萬就好了其他都不必了你知道我們損計劃我們現在已經請中選會在查在追了我跟你講啦那個沈記長你中選會去追不如你們跟監察院甚至於啊該怎麼做你們要有作為啦人民都在看啦931萬不是9萬多人民的血汗錢一分一毫一厘都不能給他浪費明慈明濤這是我們的主軸"},{"start":250.083,"end":275.123,"text":"我要繼續追所以說沈記長你要把這個事情我相信你很清楚投追到現在那個俗話說身在公門好修行然而部分公務部門的這些勞役不均的問題導致人員流動高那人力資金公部門首長主管掌握的權力包括烤雞"},{"start":276.784,"end":286.969,"text":"沒有辦法全身自愛反而借端借勢想做皇帝那就更容易產生一些騷擾、霸凌等等這些案件"},{"start":288.524,"end":308.276,"text":"我相信剛剛很多同仁都在提出說勞動部同仁親身的案子本席也感到遺憾跟不捨後續更爆出就業安定基金使用的不當這些問題今年11月底陳審計長有承諾一個月內你要提出報告請問審計長這個承諾到現在為止有沒有變"},{"start":313.357,"end":335.644,"text":"沒有變自我會對外召開記者會正式的做說明我們會把這些報告送到立法院送到立法院好那目前曝光的不當使用項目舉辦客人的演唱會、裝潢、辦公室買咖啡豆等等沈記長還有哪些掌握不當使用項目可以對外說明嗎"},{"start":336.804,"end":354.519,"text":"沿著上我們去查了以後發現不合用途的大概有5000多萬我們會收回會收回齁要繼續追啦我認為齁一定齁不能縱放而且齁"},{"start":355.652,"end":373.932,"text":"全民都在看看你們到底有沒有作為另外對於就業安定基金不當使用勞動部長洪森翰已經承諾將在明年1月中提出強化的機制那本席是希望說省紀部也要提出就業安定基金"},{"start":374.873,"end":393.583,"text":"的使用用途做規範不要再讓就業安定基金變成部會首長的小金庫你的看法呢我們會給勞動部一些意見包括希望能夠公開租用明細還有使用效率這個要公開透明"},{"start":394.784,"end":417.272,"text":"那要是上網勒使用上網勒讓大家眾所周知啊你知不支持支持那你就要求我認為說齁因為過去這段時間啦等於是小金庫那你不能只是勞動部的齁其他只要像這些基金一樣全部都要要求陳記長你的看法勒因為基金有時候齁"},{"start":418.052,"end":442.871,"text":"像你臺大也是一個作業基金那個就對他來講所以我們有一些像勞動部這一個因為是啟資一些特定的產業我們希望他能夠公布他用到哪裡去了沈記長你把這些資料統計以後本席需要一份我認為這個一定要公明這個公開透明讓大家眾所周知"},{"start":443.831,"end":448.915,"text":"口頭報告資料第4頁提到112年度﹐稽查發現財務上違私的案件有35件﹐其中通知各機關查明﹐處分的有29件﹐受處分人員有141人次﹐"},{"start":467.246,"end":487.234,"text":"審計部通知．機關查明．處分的部會．有國防部．經濟部．財政部．等等機關．反而勞動部沒有列在裡面．本期是希望審計部進行一一三年．決算審核報告時．勞動部要列為清查的重點．你的看法呢"},{"start":488.055,"end":503.671,"text":"這一位發生了這麼大的一個影響這位很大的一個的案子啊我們會照委員的意思啊好好地來希望該有的大家該負的責任該怎麼做就怎麼做啦我認為說齁這些齁"},{"start":506.294,"end":531.983,"text":"大家都在看為什麼因為你繳的那些外勞大家所聘請的每個月固定繳多少然後你用這些基金去就是到處亂花而且為所欲為你說大家怎麼看今天你要是沒有做出給老百姓給人民一個交代我相信啦人民會離政府越來越遠"},{"start":533.595,"end":548.781,"text":"你認不認同我同意那接著就是年輕改革議題以陳審計長來討論本席其實我老早就呼籲改革必須要有公平性你認不認同"},{"start":549.884,"end":566.123,"text":"任何的事情都要公平正義對那其實改革站在國民黨團的立場我們也都不反對那勞動部前部長何佩珊說政府撥補勞保戶最終支付的責任就是改革"},{"start":567.384,"end":589.01,"text":"那撥補就是改革那新任勞動部長洪森漢表示說目前沒有砍勞動勞保幾戶的整個規劃這些話聽在一般退休的這些軍公教他的民眾耳朵裡面真的格外的諷刺那個沈記長"},{"start":590.865,"end":609.268,"text":"因為過去我想蔡政府時代你就擔任了那到現在的賴政府高喊改革但卻只有找軍公教來下重手而且污名化軍公教製造階級對立"},{"start":611.565,"end":629.743,"text":"那勞保改革卻遲遲沒有任何的動作那民進黨政府改革只做半套因為勞保最快倒大家都清清楚楚那我請問陳審計長對於勞保年金改革的意見是否能認為勞保撥補金額"},{"start":633.146,"end":649.276,"text":"相較基金財務缺口．人數有限．建議勞動部重啟年改．並研議具體可行的．長期這個財務撥補計畫．那個那個沈機長我們112年度有這樣的意見有這樣的意見希望他整個檢討檢討整個"},{"start":659.444,"end":677.411,"text":"改革工程整個重啟再研究看看因為他有相當多的潛藏負債第二個也看看他的一些特資金的投資過半面的效益的情形我們希望整個盤一盤檢討一下陳記長其實年改當初他是軍公教勞"},{"start":686.67,"end":708.265,"text":"你要是說年改以後你要是站在公平而且讓大家能夠接受的一個平等線上我相信大家心無口無但是啊他只有針對軍公教而且你通過這個法律照理講法律是不受既往你認不認同"},{"start":709.827,"end":725.954,"text":"這一個因為是涉及高度政治不是這個不是高度政治今天不能講高度政治為什麼因為這是有關年改年金改革叫得漫天叫響但是"},{"start":726.974,"end":748.624,"text":"最後只有針對性的而且喔講實在話啦變成人家說我已經在公部門我已經服務三四十年我退休以後我當初為什麼要跟政府這個來做這個工作我要去考試我才能夠升任我就是退休以後我有保障"},{"start":750.318,"end":776.108,"text":"那既然要保障尤其人到一個年紀年紀越大他的支出越多為什麼他可能年長了要請外勞第二個他可能要年老多病要經常上醫院但是我當初有這樣的規劃當我退休的時候你把我從等於是我一個月可以領6萬你給我砍到3萬6就是年年砍年年扣"},{"start":777.108,"end":804.345,"text":"你說這個對這些退休的軍公教公平嗎?那個沈紀長你的想法勒?應該整個剛剛講的包括這些勞保的年金改革包括公務員的改革公務的這些改革應該政府應該再盤整一下盤整一下看看整個到底"},{"start":805.525,"end":821.505,"text":"應該是怎麼樣的一個整體會對整個國家發展會最好對那些退休的軍公教他們混混不平因為我經常在基層跑很多基層退休的軍公教他們認為說"},{"start":823.451,"end":850.301,"text":"為什麼我退休以後請來砍我你當初要是說我要擔任做這項工作的時候你要是說我將來我退休以後年金一定只有60%那我就不選擇這個行業但是我已經做了三四十年我退休以後你再從我退休以後來砍我你要是說我今天立了這個法然後未來你要是要這份工作"},{"start":851.061,"end":861.1,"text":"你就要有心理準備未來你大概就是你退休以後最多領六成年年減他心裡有數"},{"start":862.13,"end":880.513,"text":"我認為這個才叫公平合理但是你當初開始的時候就說我要軍公教勞實際上只有改軍公教勞還連連撥補我不是說特別說去排斥勞沒有這個意思我是說一定要站在一個"},{"start":881.354,"end":909.851,"text":"公平的平等線上你竟然要砍你就是軍公教全部都要做我相信那些軍公教他們沒有話講但是剛好對倒他只有針對性的所以說那些人啦混混不平啦軍公教他認為說當初我要是說真的你要是說給我砍到六成我就不選擇這份工作我還考試過來的勒那個沈機長你有什麼看法"},{"start":911.407,"end":924.763,"text":"就尊重委員的一些這樣的一個看法這個也是政府要去看整個長遠的發展該怎麼樣是對國家最適最利的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（15時31分）謝謝大會主席韓院長，還有陳審計長，以及各列席官員。是不是請陳審計長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：審計長你好。依決算法，審計機關在審核各機關或各基金決算應該要注意有無違法失職或不當之情事；依審計法，審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令之不當支出，得事前拒簽或事後剔除追繳之，是不是這樣子？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員德福：那我請教，中選會前主委陳英鈐違法失職，花了人民血汗錢931萬元的案子，審計部的同仁已經有提供相關資料向本席辦公室說明，作為最新的進度，本案從109年到現在，法院早已經判決，而且多次駁回再審，本席認為中選會不當支出應該要剔除追繳，並追究陳英鈐前主委的責任，案子拖延到現在，這四年多來，審計部你們是否有信心可以把陳英鈐違法失職、多花人民血汗錢的931萬元給追討回來？審計長，你怎麼看？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，第一個，這個案子是我們移送監察院，監察院後來彈劾，法院判陳主委要賠20萬，陳主委也賠了，我們也有請中選會開始追究相關人員的責任，但是中選會說這個案子監察院本來也有追究相關人員責任，他們解釋說明了以後，相關人員除了主委以外的人員，監察院沒有再追下去，所以……"],["林委員德福：沒有再追下去，你認為這樣可行嗎？審計長，931萬耶！這不應該要花的耶！這是人民的血汗錢耶！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們現在已經出公文請中選會……因為誠如委員所講，陳主委這個案子都是被退回……"],["林委員德福：是駁回……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，都駁回。"],["林委員德福：他是上訴、再審，但都是駁回，表示這個案子是確定的，而且應該要追回他的錢嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員德福：但是他這樣拖拉，我認為審計部應該要有作為。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們已經去了公文要中選會開始檢討陳主委……"],["林委員德福：中選會檢討沒有用啦，官官相護啦！我認為這個一定要有作為，今天這是一個案例，因為你今天是亂花人民的血汗錢，不應該花的，結果最後法院也判決，結果就賠20萬就好了，其他都不必了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：依照審計法，我們現在已經請中選會在追了。"],["林委員德福：我跟你講啦，審計長，中選會去追，不如你們跟監察院去做，至於該怎麼做，你們要有作為，人民都在看，931萬不是九萬多，人民的血汗錢一分一毫一釐，都不能浪費，民脂民膏……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會看緊，這是我們的職責。"],["林委員德福：我要繼續追。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["林委員德福：審計長，所以你要繼續追這個事情，我相信你也很清楚。俗話說身在公門好修行，然而部分公務部門勞逸不均的問題，導致人員流動高，人力吃緊，公部門首長、主管掌握的權力包括考績，若沒有辦法潔身自愛，反而藉勢藉端想做皇帝，就更容易產生一些騷擾、霸凌等等案件。剛剛很多同仁都在提勞動部同仁輕生的案子，本席也感到遺憾跟不捨，後續更爆出就業安定基金使用不當的這些問題。今年11月底陳審計長有承諾一個月內要提出報告，請問審計長，這個承諾到現在為止有沒有變？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有變。"],["林委員德福：沒有變喔！是否會對外召開記者會，正式的做說明？會不會？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會把這些報告送到立法院。"],["林委員德福：送到立法院，好。目前曝光的不當使用項目，有舉辦個人的演唱會、裝潢、辦公室買咖啡豆等等，審計長還有掌握哪些不當使用項目，可以對外說明嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：原則上我們去查了以後，發現不合用途的，大概有五千多萬，我們會收回。"],["林委員德福：五千多萬會收回，要繼續追啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["林委員德福：我認為一定不能縱放，而且全民都在看，看你們到底有沒有作為。另外，對於就業安定基金的不當使用，勞動部長洪申翰已經承諾將在明年1月中提出強化的機制，本席是希望審計部也要提出就業安定基金使用用途的規範，不要再讓就業安定基金變成部會首長的小金庫，你的看法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會給勞動部一些意見，包括希望能夠公開使用明細還有使用效率，這個要公開透明。"],["林委員德福：對，還要上網，讓大家眾所周知。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員德福：你支不支持？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：支持。"],["林委員德福：好，那你就要求，因為過去這段時間等於是小金庫，不能只是勞動部的，其他的只要跟這些基金一樣，全部都要要求，審計長，你的看法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為基金有時候……像臺大也是一個作業基金，那個對它來講……"],["林委員德福：但是我是說……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有一些像勞動部這個，因為是取自一些特定的財源，所以我們希望它能夠公布它用到哪裡去了。"],["林委員德福：審計長，你把這些資料統計以後，本席需要一份，我認為這個一定要公開透明，讓大家眾所周知，以昭公信，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好的。"],["林委員德福：好，我再請教審計長，口頭報告資料第4頁提到，112年度稽察發現財務上違失案件有35件，其中通知各機關查明處分的有29件，受處分人員有141人次，審計部通知機關查明處分的部會有國防部、經濟部、財政部等機關，反而勞動部沒有列在裡面，本席是希望審計部進行113年決算審核報告時，勞動部要列為清查的重點，你的看法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為發生了這麼大一個影響社會的案子，我們會照委員的意思，好好地來處理，希望該有的、大家該負的責任……"],["林委員德福：對，該怎麼做就怎麼做啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員德福：我認為這些大家都在看，為什麼？因為大家所聘請的這些外勞每個月要固定繳錢，然後你用這些基金到處亂花，而且為所欲為，你說大家怎麼看？今天你要是沒有給老百姓、給人民一個交代，我相信人民會離政府越來越遠，你認不認同？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：同意。"],["林委員德福：同意，好。","接著就年金改革議題與陳審計長討論。本席其實老早就呼籲，改革必須要有公平性，你認不認同？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：任何的事情都要公平、正義。"],["林委員德福：對，其實站在國民黨團的立場，我們也都不反對改革。勞動部前部長何佩珊說政府撥補勞保負最終支付責任就是改革，撥補就是改革。新任勞動部長洪申翰表示，目前沒有砍勞保給付的整個規劃，這些話聽在一般退休的軍公教民眾的耳裡，真的格外的諷刺。審計長，過去蔡政府時代你就擔任審計長，到現在的賴政府高喊改革，但卻只有找軍公教來下重手，而且污名化軍公教，製造階級對立，勞保改革卻遲遲沒有任何的動作，民進黨政府改革只做半套，因為勞保最快倒，大家都清清楚楚。我請問陳審計長，對於勞保年金改革的意見，是否認為勞保撥補金額相較基金財務缺口仍屬有限，建議勞動部重啟年改，並研議具體可行的長期財務撥補計畫？審計長，你有什麼看法？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們112年度有這樣的意見，希望檢討整個改革工程、整個重啟，再研究看看，因為它有相當多的潛藏負債。第二個，也看看它的一些基金投資，各方面效益的情形，我們希望整個盤一盤，檢討一下。"],["林委員德福：審計長，其實年改當初是軍、公、教、勞，年改以後，要是站在公平而且讓大家能夠接受的一個平等線上，我相信大家心服口服，但是它只有針對軍公教，而且你通過這個法律，照理講法律是不溯既往，你認不認同？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個因為是涉及高度政治……"],["林委員德福：不是，這個不是高度政治，今天不能講高度政治，為什麼？因為有關年金改革，叫得漫天價響，但是最後只有針對性的，而且講實在話啦！變成人家說「虎打死才講價」，我已經在公部門服務3、40年，我當初為什麼要來做這個工作？我要去考試才能夠勝任，就是因為退休以後有保障，既然有保障，尤其人到一個年紀，年紀越大支出越多，為什麼？他可能年長了要請外勞；第二個，他可能年老多病，要經常上醫院，我當初有這樣的規劃，但是當我退休的時候，本來我1個月可以領6萬，你給我砍到3萬6，然後年年扣，你說對這些退休的軍公教公平嗎？審計長，你的想法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：剛剛講包括勞保的年金改革、包括公務員的改革案改革，政府應該再盤整一下，看看到底怎麼樣對整體國家發展會最好。"],["林委員德福：退休的軍公教憤憤不平，我經常在基層跑，很多基層退休的軍公教認為為什麼在他們退休以後要來砍？要是當初他做這項工作的時候，你告訴他將來退休年金一定只有60%，那他可以不選擇這個行業，但是他已經做了三十、四十年，在退休以後你再來砍。如果說今天立了法，未來要這份工作就要有心理準備，未來退休以後大概最多領六成，而且年年減，那麼他心裡就有數，我認為這個才叫公平合理。當初一開始的時候說要改革軍、公、教、勞，結果實際上只有改軍、公、教，勞還年年撥補，我不是特別去排斥勞，沒有這個意思，我是說一定要站在公平的平等線上，既然要砍，就是軍、公、教、勞全部都要做，這樣我相信那些軍公教會沒有話講，但是剛好相反，它只有針對性的，所以那些人憤憤不平啦！軍公教認為如果當初你真的要砍到六成，他就不選擇這份工作，他還要考試才能進來咧！審計長，你有什麼看法？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我尊重委員這樣的看法，政府也是要去看整個長遠的發展……"],["林委員德福：對啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：該怎麼樣是對國家最適、最利的。"],["林委員德福：對啦，好啦，以上，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員詢問，也謝謝審計長的詢答。","接下來登記第6位賴惠員委員之諮詢以書面提出，請審計部以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴惠員書面諮詢：","問題一：有關國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》對審計業務之影響","首先，據審計部公告之112年度財政缺失中，與地方政府財政及事權劃分相關之案件數多達1700多案。監察院李俊邑秘書長亦於近期新聞中，就記者提問目前審查中之國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》可能涉及的疑義時指出：若大量的錢下放，事權卻沒跟著走，未來責任歸屬、分配都會有很多問題。可見以監察院的立場而言，國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》將大幅增加審計人力的負擔：","請問審計長：","1.目前各區審計處之人力配置數量為何？是否有配置約聘僱之審計人員？","2.若以國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》之分配方式進行評估，審計部預期將會增加多少案件量？現有人力是否足以因應這樣的變化？","3.若以現有人力規畫狀況，國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》是否會造成審計部被癱瘓？對審計工作及國家財政會有何種影響？","問題二：有關中央政府及地方政府事權劃分之問題","承上，《財政收支劃分法》除關係到中央及地方財政分配外，由於經費之多寡與政府所需負擔的施政義務相掛勾，故權責分配問題也影響審計部工作之分配與重點。","近年各地方縣市政府透過中央以一般性補助款挹注財源後，財政已多能自主、甚至出現賸餘。然據報載，監察院李俊邑秘書長於報導中指出：地方政府決算時最常遇到的缺失係財政挪用，例如供社福專用之公益彩券補助用於舉辦其他活動。從這樣的現象可以發現，地方政府於預算編列及執行上仍沒有進行完善的規劃及確實依據預算落實。","請問審計長：","1.近3年地方政府因不當挪用預算經費遭審計部列為缺失者，占整體缺失中的多少比例？","2.承前，由於中央及地方政府間針對部分事項之事權劃分仍有爭議，造成特定案件預算究竟應由中央政府編列、抑或由地方政府編列偶有爭議，是否也是造成地方政府預算編列與實際運用有落差，而有挪用缺失的原因？","3.承第一題，從目前地方政府缺失狀況來看，由於國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》僅大量增加地方政府受分配金額，而並未討論如何分配事權，這將將使前述狀況更為嚴重，目前審計部有何因應策略？","問題三：有關台糖土地活化及租用問題疑義","據監察院於今年7月公告之「112年度中央政府總決算附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」中，營業部分有關台灣糖業股份有限公司之決算審核意見，其中多數審查意見與台糖土地活絡及利用問題有關。","請問審計長：","1.以本席選區而論，台糖除持有大量土地外，核有：新營糖廠、善化糖廠、烏樹林糖廠等舊糖廠資源。惟以新營糖廠為例，內部雖有規劃展售、觀光、禮堂等大型使用區域；但多數硬體已年久失修，且並未規劃如何與地方文化、糖廠歷史等資源結合，致民眾對前往糖廠觀光意願偏低；又以新營糖廠為例，新營糖廠內部有大量日治時期宿舍等歷史建物可作為觀光及文化保存運用，惟多數亦面臨多年為修繕而荒廢問題。請問審計部針對台糖土地活化利用欠佳目前是否有提出相關糾正？目前改善進度如何？","2.又針對台糖土地租用問題，據本席項台糖所資後發現，台糖107年至112年7月間存續之50件地上權設定案件中，多數地上權設定案件以5年、10年為主，僅2件取得20年地上權設定資格。而2件之中其一為佛光山文教基金會，另一為營利之新奇美公司。查台糖歷來地上權設定之狀況，營利事業之地上權設定多以短期設定為主，僅此案獲得20年地上權登記資格，監察院對此是否有查核相關程序是否符合法規及台糖歷來慣習？"],["主席：接下來請登記第7位洪孟楷委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}},{"id":"158194","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158194","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711cecf3949952ec4f57b05e405f736a88db82411c1dea8c2d76d45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"15:14:51 - 15:30:33","影片長度":"00:15:42","會議時間":"2024-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第13次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「勞動部前部長何佩珊及勞動力發展署北分署前分署長謝宜容應受嚴厲之譴責，並移送監察院及檢調單位，如情節重大者將撤職查辦，永不再任公職。」是否有當？請公決案等25案。（12月13日）二、同意權之行使事項：總統咨，依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗玲、黃東益、伊萬•納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。（12月17日上午）三、審計長列席報告中華民國112年度中央政府總決算審核報告案審核經過並備諮詢。（12月17日下午））","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-17","start_time":"2024-12-17T15:14:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-17T15:30:33+08:00","duration":942,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第13次會議","id":"院會-11-2-13","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.01096875,"end":21.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.14971875,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.21721875,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.127218750000004,"end":32.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.494093750000005,"end":34.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.439093750000005,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.90471875,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.71034375,"end":126.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.94346875000001,"end":152.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.27284375000002,"end":158.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.30159375000002,"end":161.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.11534375000002,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.16971875000002,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.05534375000002,"end":202.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.29034375,"end":203.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.94846875000002,"end":206.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.17159375,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.09784375,"end":220.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.09346875000003,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.25034375,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.93721875000003,"end":277.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.45159375000003,"end":283.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.70471875000004,"end":278.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.93596875000003,"end":316.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.17534375,"end":338.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.64471875000004,"end":344.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.42846875000004,"end":356.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.97096875,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.24471875,"end":366.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.97784375000003,"end":375.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.26784375,"end":377.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.84534375000004,"end":378.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.70596875,"end":379.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.00534375,"end":430.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.44034375,"end":439.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.82284375,"end":448.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.75409375000004,"end":450.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.98159375,"end":452.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.22596875000005,"end":460.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.29659375000006,"end":465.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.16909375,"end":470.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.19784375,"end":514.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.1740937500001,"end":518.0090937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.2622187500001,"end":523.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4934687500001,"end":543.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.96284375,"end":548.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.7890937500001,"end":561.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.63096875,"end":564.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.03971875,"end":567.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.57096875,"end":573.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.61221875,"end":607.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.27409375,"end":577.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.1215937500001,"end":616.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.9978437500001,"end":617.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.9978437500001,"end":617.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.19596875,"end":631.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.6453437499999,"end":650.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.1697187500001,"end":659.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.82659375,"end":663.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.75846875,"end":674.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.4740937500001,"end":691.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.2097187500001,"end":708.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.00034375,"end":728.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.4865937500001,"end":736.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.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有請沈記長李委員好"},{"start":34.52,"end":56.374,"text":"最近勞動部爆發勞發署北分署的前署長 謝宜容涉嫌職場霸凌導致公務員的輕生案漸漸衍生出勞動部濫用就業安定基金從這幾年中央政府總預算案的預算書裡面可以發現就業安定基金的宣傳費竟然連連的增加那111年是1.2億112年是1.5億"},{"start":63.799,"end":86.23,"text":"到113年編列1.7億然後明年的預算編列更是高達2億1700多萬元實在是令人匪夷所思更難以理解從81年起政府為了平衡僱主聘僱移工的衍生的社會成本就依據就業服務法規定對僱主徵收就業安定費"},{"start":87.25,"end":107.166,"text":"而且所有的僱主每個月要繳納就業安定費兩千元給就業安定基金根據資料顯示光是112年度的就業安定基金一整年的收取就業安定費的收入就高達212億多元其中將近三分之一的收入是由聘僱社"},{"start":107.907,"end":125.408,"text":"福的移工的僱主所繳納的．其實這個對長期聘僱．外籍看護工的．私人的家庭．還有跟身心障礙者．是非常沉重的經濟上面的負擔．因此有關就業安定基金．的預算的編列和經費之用．本席想要請教沈記長幾個問題"},{"start":127.967,"end":152.204,"text":"根據救安基金收支的保管．還有運用的辦法規定．救安基金是用來．辦理促進國民的就業．提升勞工的福祉．及處理外國人聘僱管理的事情．結果沒想到．近年來的救安基金．卻遭媒體踢爆被濫用的情勢．包括勞動部及勞動力發展署．濫用救安基金媒體政策機．"},{"start":153.665,"end":171.333,"text":"業務的宣傳費的推廣費．用來舉辦音樂會．還有採購三節的禮品等．明顯就是救安基金的規定．跟救安基金的規定的用途未盡相符．那我們執政黨竟然．濫用安定勞工的社福的預算．變成了政府官員舉辦音樂會．唱歌、養媒體．"},{"start":174.835,"end":202.234,"text":"還有做大內宣．甚至用來裝潢辦公室．還有採購三節的禮品．送禮做人情的不當使用．這對遵守法規．按時繳納就業安定費的．弱勢私人的家庭．來說是情何以堪啊．如此濫用人民的納稅錢．怎麼對得起．廣大的勞工的朋友呢．那請問沈記長．你說這是不是明顯的．浪費公堂啊．"},{"start":203.359,"end":219.097,"text":"他看起來應該不合基金用好那再請問沈記長沈記部有沒有掌握就業安定基金近年來的媒體政策及業務的宣導費及推廣費這些預算的編列及支用的數據呢有"},{"start":221.992,"end":247.107,"text":"剛剛委員講的那個媒體政策及AU先導會的部分就如同委員所講的是逐點增加但是推展會他除了媒體先導會以後以外他也有推展會像推展會113年也有1億3000多萬所以加起來媒體政策先導會加推展會大概也有3億多"},{"start":249.011,"end":277.592,"text":"所以就業安定基金是特別的收入的基金收入的來源是向屁股的移工的僱主徵收來的然後基金主要是用來促進國民就業嘛但剛才那個省紀長也說了那勞動部竟然每年編譯3億多的預算去做政策的宣導還有業務的推廣而且還被踢爆濫權使用那請問省紀長省紀部近年來就業安定基金各項的經費的支用有沒有進行了解還有沒有規劃查核呢"},{"start":278.593,"end":301.89,"text":"有沒有違法還是失職的情勢呢?這些審計部要如何處理呢?有,大概剛剛我也談過他我們收回安基基金他們去衛福規定的租出我們這一兩年收回3億多第二個他這三年短絕了差不多200多億我們也要請勞動部檢討"},{"start":303.531,"end":316.034,"text":"第三個他有的在補助那些長年連續都在違動勞動法令的一些補助三千多萬我們都有要他勞動部好好檢討"},{"start":318.377,"end":344.124,"text":"希望審計部可以為這些所施仁的家庭好好的把關．救安基金的經費的支用．請審計長可以在此承諾．針對安定基金的運用．承諾進行專案的審計．查核近5年來經費的支用的情形．包括過去幾年．是否有沒有作假帳．請審計長後續調查報告．一併提供本席和本院參考．可以嗎"},{"start":345.441,"end":366.237,"text":"好的 因為我們有答應在裁委會的時候有答應委員他們希望能夠他希望我們大家委員也希望我們去查核我們所謂有一經派人去查大概有查了三年委員現在希望我們查五年我們會照委員的意思再增加兩年"},{"start":367.622,"end":370.003,"text":"建保署為了節省藥物的支出每年都會進行藥品的價格的調整根據113年度藥價調整的結果"},{"start":393.767,"end":399.49,"text":"遭到砍價的藥品有4000多項導致部分的藥品原本價格就已經非常低了然後再繼續被砍下去的話藥廠來說其實已經不符合成本了然後都停產了而且這會造成民眾用不到藥而且引發民眾的恐慌所以我想請教沈記長國內過去頻傳有缺藥啊然後缺快篩啊缺輸液啊這些事情甚至可能會危及病人的生命的"},{"start":422.901,"end":439.438,"text":"然後解決缺藥的危機還要花數倍的價錢由不同的國家來進口然後耗費更多的預算根本性的問題就是在於健保藥價政策不當那請問審計部有沒有進行什麼相關的查核呢"},{"start":440.848,"end":469.136,"text":"我們112年有查這個問題大概我們也提出來說這個藥價夠低可能也會造成一些問題所以我們有請健保署好好檢討一下不能造成整個剛剛委員所講的各方面的醫療用品或者藥品都造成切後的問題我們要找到一個合理適當的一個藥價"},{"start":471.616,"end":488.536,"text":"那針對健保改革 沈機長你是否同意我們也先從民眾的自我照顧的概念開始宣導呢因為這個政策就是對於藥品轉類然後讓我們自己國人有自我照護的環境透過這些部分已經安全無虞的藥品"},{"start":489.417,"end":514.218,"text":"然後像處方藥可以轉類指示用藥．並加速指示用藥退出健保．這樣的話就是不會造成．太多的健保上面的負擔．根據統計我國健保制開辦到現在．已經違法給付指示用藥．已經近30年了．據統計2022年健保扔．給付800多項指示用藥．佔健保給付藥物的比例達．"},{"start":517.04,"end":537.775,"text":"27.3%．一級就是說．保給付的藥物中．超過四分之一的項目是違法給付．更耗費了大約20億的公帑．那指示用藥依法本來就是．不屬於建保的給付範圍．但因為建保開辦初期．考量醫生、醫療與民眾就醫的習慣．建保署讓1200餘項的指示藥．暫時繼續以建保給付．"},{"start":544.019,"end":564.375,"text":"所以現在還有801項的指示藥品以健保給付那是不是應該要加速指示用藥就是這些讓這些安全無虞的藥品快速退出健保給付節省健保的資源讓健保資源可以合理的配置呢那請問沈機長你有沒有這方面有沒有進行相關的查核呢謝謝委員"},{"start":566.104,"end":588.476,"text":"我們的審計看法和委員的看法一樣因為這個一千多項一千兩百多項到現在檢討了以後還有八百多項我們有叫他請他是不是加快速度來看看還有哪些可能民眾實在相當"},{"start":589.717,"end":592.958,"text":"需要我用的藥品大概整體叫他們盤一盤大概這個部分我們今年剛剛1、2年的總結算的審核報告有提出來謝謝委員注意到這個問題"},{"start":609.409,"end":630.603,"text":"謝謝,謝謝審計長就是希望能夠加速指示用要快速退出健保給付這樣健保支援才可以更節省對,對,對好,那接下來我再請教審計長就是本席這邊有一個預算使用的問題想要請教你雖然現在還沒有執行但是希望審計部未來要好好的審計查核那就是國防部軍備局"},{"start":632.164,"end":659.121,"text":"預計在明年114年度就是114年到117年總共編了68億5900萬的預算捐助行政法人中科院與民雄西策那邊開發了軍規無人機的產線預計在115年投產那建置這一個航太機無人機的產業園區據說中科院打算委外管理但"},{"start":659.961,"end":680.806,"text":"收了廠房的租金提供廠商的進駐那雖然新建了航太無人機產業的園區的目的當然是要落實國防自主但是推動居民技術整合的利益是良善的但問題來了就是經本席瞭解這個產業園區的土地產權管理是政府的"},{"start":681.486,"end":698.197,"text":"未來招商是經濟部和嘉義縣政府負責．所有收入卻沒有進國庫．全部歸中科院所有級管理．本席雖然我不是預算專家．我只想請教沈記長．這是不是哪裡怪怪的．"},{"start":698.877,"end":728.197,"text":"就是政府用公務的預算出錢出力給中科院結果卻是讓中科院自己成立所謂的專案基金自行管理那沈記長你當過主計總處的副處長現在身為沈記長那你認為透過公務預算捐助的新建的這些園區所有的收入支出的使用是不是要透過中科院私設基金規避國會監督的方式符合預算法的規定嗎"},{"start":729.738,"end":747.056,"text":"是不是應該要由國防部來成立一個非營業基金或特收基金的方式這樣才正確呢委員的建議很好我向委員報告主要動用國家資源我們損失部一定管"},{"start":748.566,"end":764.639,"text":"所以給委員了解到這樣的一個情況但是怎麼樣讓這一個這個延期能夠最後能夠發展起來他的效益能夠達成用的什麼方法"},{"start":767.322,"end":786.118,"text":"這個包括國防部、中科院都要好好的還有行政院都要好好的去思考去建立一個不要這麼複雜的制度這剛剛委員聽完以後我都還沒有搞不容易搞清楚所以制度要讓它越單純我認為單純有效這樣的一個方法但是"},{"start":792.103,"end":809.356,"text":"我們審計部只要動用因為這裡面我看起來委員提供的資料裡面有監制的國防部用公益算監制的68億我們這個經費也相當的大我們一定會密切的來注意"},{"start":810.823,"end":831.779,"text":"雖然這個中科院民雄航太計無人機產業園區計劃還沒有正式的執行但是本席還是希望審計部未來要好好的審計查核避免公務預算捐助的預算跟安定基金一樣遭到濫用還有挪用那國會還沒有辦法監督的問題可以嗎好我們會提出審計意見謝謝"},{"start":834.568,"end":848.246,"text":"那接下來國防部114年度有編列了稅出預算4760億元其中對美軍購M1A2T的戰車還有海馬斯火箭的系統還有"},{"start":849.608,"end":855.356,"text":"暗製魚叉的這些飛彈系統．還有採購F-16AV戰機．遠距遙控精準的飛彈等武器．總共有705億元．再加上國防部於109年．還有到115年的編列特別預算有2472億元．"},{"start":868.053,"end":883.79,"text":"2億元這樣的金額其實是非常的龐大的但是近年來常遭媒體報導交貨延遲至今留存在美方這些問題所以有關國軍對美軍購執行的情況我想請教沈記長"},{"start":885.411,"end":902.766,"text":"國防預算支援有限那國軍歷年編那麼高額的軍購的預算分期按發價書付款給美方目前留在美方的資金有多少然後有多少還沒有交貨的還有國防部有沒有列戰管理呢"},{"start":904.336,"end":927.021,"text":"報告員從後面來看這個我們有一定要求他內臟管理這個大概有這樣的目前放在那裡的還沒有交貨的我們查出來匯錢去了還沒有交的有2800多億如果像這個重大經貨這個還未延遲的這裡面包括了這1500多億是還沒有這個是屬於延遲的部分"},{"start":941.535,"end":941.556,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（15時15分）謝謝院長，有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：審計長好。最近勞動部爆發勞發署北分署的前署長謝宜容涉嫌職場霸凌導致公務員的輕生案，間接衍生出勞動部濫用就業安定基金，從這幾年中央政府總預算案的預算書裡面可以發現，就業安定基金的宣傳費竟然連年增加，111年是1.2億、112年是1.5億，到113年編列1.7億，明年的預算編列更是高達兩億一千七百多萬元，實在是令人匪夷所思，更難以理解。從81年起，政府為了平衡雇主聘僱移工衍生的社會成本，就依據就業服務法規定，對雇主徵收就業安定費，而且所有的雇主每個月要繳納就業安定費2,000元給就業安定基金。根據資料顯示，光是112年度就業安定基金一整年收取就業安定費的收入就高達兩百一十二億多元，其中將近三分之一的收入是由聘僱社福移工的雇主所繳納，其實這對長期聘僱外籍看護工的私人家庭跟身心障礙者是經濟上面非常沉重的負擔。","因此，有關就業安定基金預算的編列和經費支用，本席想要請教審計長幾個問題，根據就安基金收支的保管還有運用的辦法規定，就安基金是用來辦理促進國民就業、提升勞工福祉及處理外國人聘僱管理的事情，結果沒想到近年來的就安基金卻遭媒體踢爆被濫用的情事，包括勞動部及勞動力發展署濫用就安基金「媒體政策及業務宣導費」及「推展費」，用來舉辦音樂會，還有採購三節禮品等，明顯跟就安基金規定的用途未盡相符。執政黨竟然濫用安定勞工的社福預算，變成了政府官員舉辦音樂會、唱歌、養媒體及做大內宣，甚至用來裝潢辦公室，還有採購三節禮品來送禮、做人情的不當使用，這對遵守法規、按時繳納就業安定費的弱勢私人家庭來說，是情何以堪啊！如此濫用人民的納稅錢，怎麼對得起廣大的勞工朋友呢？請問審計長，你說這是不是明顯的浪費公帑啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它看起來應該不合基金用途。"],["林委員憶君：好，那再請問審計長，審計部有沒有掌握就業安定基金近年來的「媒體政策及業務宣導費」及「推展費」等這些預算編列及支用數據呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有！剛剛委員講的媒體政策及業務宣導費部分，就如同委員所講的是逐年增加，除了媒體宣導費以外，也有推展費，推展費113年也有一億三千多萬，所以媒體政策宣導費加推展費大概也有三億多。"],["林委員憶君：所以就業安定基金是特別收入基金，收入來源是向聘僱移工的雇主徵收來的，基金主要是用來促進國民就業，但剛才審計長也說了，勞動部竟然每年編列三億多的預算去做政策宣導及業務推廣，而且還被踢爆濫權使用。請問審計長，審計部近年來對就業安定基金各項的經費支用有沒有進行瞭解？還有沒有規劃查核呢？有沒有違法還是失職的情事呢？這些審計部如何處理呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，剛剛我也談過，依安定基金他們未合規定的支出，我們這一兩年收回三億多；第二個，這三年短絀了差不多兩百多億，我們也要請勞動部檢討；第三個，它有在補助那些長年連續都在違反勞動法令的一些單位，三千多萬，我們都有要勞動部好好檢討。"],["林委員憶君：希望審計部可以為這些私人的家庭好好把關就安基金的經費支用，請審計長可以在此承諾，針對安定基金的運用承諾進行專案的審計，查核近5年來經費的支用情形，包括過去幾年有沒有作假帳，請審計長後續調查報告一併提供本席和本院參考，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好的，因為我們在財委會的時候有答應委員他們，大家委員也希望我們去查核，我們12月初已經派人去查，大概查了3年，委員現在希望我們查5年，我們會照委員的意思再增加2年。"],["林委員憶君：是，謝謝審計長，因為民進黨已經執政8年了啦，其實差不多5年，這樣你做得到嘛！可以承諾嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以、可以，謝謝委員，我們來努力。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。接下來，長期以來，健保是國人健康保障的重要支柱，健保署為了節省藥物的支出，每年都會進行藥品的價格調整，根據113年度藥價調整的結果，遭到砍價的藥品有四千多項，導致部分的藥品原本價格就已經非常低了，然後再繼續被砍下去的話，對藥廠來說其實已經不符合成本了，然後都停產了，而且這會造成民眾用不到藥，引發民眾的恐慌。所以我想請教審計長，國內過去頻傳有缺藥，然後缺快篩、缺輸液這些事情，甚至可能會危及病人的生命，然後解決缺藥的危機還要花數倍的價錢，由不同的國家來進口，然後耗費更多的預算，根本性的問題就是在於健保藥價政策不當，請問審計部有沒有進行什麼相關的查核呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們112年有查這個問題，大概我們也提出來說藥價過低可能也會造成一些問題，所以我們有請健保署好好檢討一下，不能造成剛剛委員所講的各方面醫療用品或者藥品都造成缺貨的問題，我們要找到一個合理、適當的藥價。"],["林委員憶君：針對健保改革，審計長，你是否同意我們先從民眾自我照顧的概念開始宣導呢？因為這個政策就是對於藥品轉類，然後讓我們自己國人有自我照護的環境，透過這些已經安全無虞的藥品，然後像處方藥可以轉類指示用藥並加速指示用藥退出健保，這樣的話就不會造成太多健保上面的負擔。根據統計，我國健保制開辦到現在已經違法給付指示用藥近30年了，據統計，2022年健保仍給付八百多項指示用藥，占健保給付藥物的比例達27.3%，亦即健保給付的藥物中，超過四分之一的項目是違法給付，更耗費了大約20億的公帑，指示用藥依法本來就是不屬於健保的給付範圍，但因為健保開辦初期，考量醫生、醫療與民眾就醫的習慣，健保署讓一千兩百餘項的指示藥暫時繼續以健保給付，所以現在還有801項的指示藥品以健保給付，是不是應該要加速指示用藥……就是讓這些安全無虞的藥品快速退出健保給付，節省健保的資源，讓健保資源可以合理配置呢？請問審計長，這方面你有沒有進行相關的查核呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，我們的審計看法和委員的看法一樣，因為這一千兩百多項到現在檢討了以後，還有八百多項，我們有叫它、有請它是不是加快速度來看看還有哪些可能民眾實在相當需要而用的藥品，大概整體叫他們盤一盤，大概這個部分，我們剛剛112年總決算的審核報告有提出來，謝謝委員注意到這個問題。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝審計長，就是希望能夠加速指示用藥快速退出健保給付，這樣健保資源才可以更節省，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對、對。"],["林委員憶君：接下來我再請教審計長，本席這邊有一個預算使用的問題想要請教你，雖然現在還沒有執行，但是希望審計部未來要好好的審計查核，那就是國防部軍備局預計在明年114年度，就是114年到117年總共編了68億5,900萬的預算，捐助行政法人中科院於民雄西側開發軍規無人機的產線，預計在115年投產。建置此航太暨無人機產業園區，據說中科院打算委外管理，但收了廠房租金，提供廠商進駐。雖然興建了航太無人機產業園區的目的當然是要落實國防自主，推動軍民技術整合的立意是良善的，但問題來了，經本席了解，這個產業園區的土地產權管理是政府，但是未來招商是經濟部和嘉義縣政府負責，所有收入卻沒有進國庫，全部歸中科院所有及管理。","本席雖然不是預算的專家，但是我只是想要請教審計長，這是不是哪裡怪怪的？就是政府用公務預算出錢出力給中科院，結果卻是讓中科院自己成立所謂的專案基金自行管理，審計長，你當過主計總處的副處長，現在身為審計長，你認為透過公務預算捐助興建的這些園區，所有收入支出的使用要透過中科院私設基金規避國會監督的方式，符合預算法的規定嗎？是不是應該要由國防部成立一個非營業基金或特收基金的方式，這樣才正確呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員的建議很好，我向委員報告，只要動用國家資源，審計部一定管，所以給委員了解這樣的情況。但是怎麼樣讓這個園區最後能夠發展起來、它的效益能夠達成、用的什麼方法等，包括國防部、中科院還有行政院都要好好的思考建立一個不要這麼複雜的制度。剛剛聽完委員所說以後，我都還不容易搞清楚，所以制度要讓它越單純，我認為單純、有效這樣的方法，但是審計部只要動用……因為這裡面我看起來委員提供的資料裡面有國防部用公務預算捐助了68億，這個經費也相當大，我們一定會密切注意。"],["林委員憶君：好，雖然這個中科院民雄航太暨無人機產業園區計畫還沒有正式執行，但是本席還是希望審計部未來要好好的審計查核，避免公務預算捐助的預算跟安定基金一樣遭到濫用及挪用，讓國會沒有辦法監督的問題，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們會提出審計意見。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。接下來，國防部114年度有編列了歲出預算4,760億元，其中對美軍購M1A2T戰車，還有海馬斯火箭的系統、岸置魚叉等這些飛彈系統，採購F-16V戰機、遠距遙控精準飛彈等武器，總共有705億元，再加上國防部於109年到115年還有編列特別預算有2,472億元，這樣的金額其實是非常龐大的，但是近年來常遭媒體報導交貨延遲，資金留存在美方這些問題，所以有關國軍對美軍購的執行情況，我想請教審計長，國防預算資源有限，國軍歷年編那麼高額的軍購預算分期按發價書付款給美方，目前留在美方的資金有多少？然後有多少還沒有交貨的？還有國防部有沒有列帳管理呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，從後面來看，這個我們一定要求它列帳管理，目前放在那裡還沒有交貨的，我們查出來匯錢去了還沒有交的有兩千八百多億，像這個重大軍購還會延遲的，這裡面包括一千五百多億是屬於延遲交貨的部分。"],["林委員憶君：OK，好，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝林委員，感謝。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝審計長。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的詢答。","接下來登記第4位吳琪銘委員之諮詢以書面提出，請審計部書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員吳琪銘書面諮詢：","一、近年來詐騙猖獗，政府為打擊詐欺遏阻犯罪，於111年7月15日、112年6月9日陸續訂頒「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領」1.0版、1.5版，編列預算14億餘元。據打擊詐欺辦公室公布資料，打擊詐欺策略已有初步成效，112年度全般攔阻及圈存93.79億元，查獲犯罪集團近2千件，查扣不法犯罪所得38.77億元。但詐欺案件仍層出不窮，依據打詐儀表板統計，光113年11月就受理1萬8千多件、財損金額126億元，民眾深受其害。關於政府打擊詐欺政策之推動情形，就教審計長：","(一)審計部已就政府打擊詐欺執行情形辦理專案查核，提出多項審核意見，促請行政院等權責機關研謀改善，並於112年度中央政府總決算審核報告彙編專章揭露。請問行政院及相關機關後續回復辦理情形為何？有無具體成效？","(二)本院已於113年7月三讀通過「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例」等打詐新四法。另行政院於同年8月將行政院打擊詐欺辦公室轉型為行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心，由內政部、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、金融監督管理委員會、法務部分別負責統籌與相關機關執行「識詐」、「堵詐」、「防詐」、「阻詐」及「懲詐」等5大面向業務，行政院於113年11月28日通過打詐綱領2.0版（114-115年）。","對於詐騙犯罪手法不斷翻新，打詐綱領1.5版已編列預算14億餘元，明年度（114年度）還要編列預算73.5億元。各相關部會究竟有無盡責？為何民怨那麼深，甚至有詐騙受害人因此輕生，審計部應該發揮監督力量，加強查核。請問審計部有無持續規劃查核，查核重點項目有哪些？","二、政府為吸引新南向目標國家旅客來臺觀光及洽商，自105年8月起陸續給予新南向目標國家免簽證、有條件式免簽證等簽證便利措施。111年間新型冠狀病毒肺炎（COVID-19）疫情趨緩，邊境管制鬆綁並恢復簽證便利措施後，外國人入境我國人數逐年增加。又因應國家產業發展需求，政府持續有條件開放外國人來臺工作，根據勞動部公布資料，113年10月底止，產業及社服移工人數（下稱移工人數）81.1萬人，較110年底之66.9萬人，增加14.1萬人。","惟據內政部移民署統計，近年以免簽證及有條件式免簽證方式入境我國之東南亞部分國家旅客，經治安機關查獲在我國非法從事與簽證目的不符活動之人數有日益增多情事，均需要內政部移民署專勤隊費心查緝，而失聯移工又不斷增加，截至113年10月底止，有近9萬失聯移工，但內政部移民署專勤隊人力目前僅5百多人（截至113年10月底534人），人力不足將影響查緝、收容遣送量能。本席想就教審計長以下幾個問題：","(一)現行查獲免簽證及有條件式免簽證方式入境非法從事與簽證目的不符者有多少人？","(二)現行失聯移工哪些國家人數較多？","(三)審計部近年查核情形如何？有無提出相關審核意見？","三、海巡署職掌海岸管制區之管制及安全維護等，負責海域及海岸巡防執法勤務，維護海域安全，扮演第二海軍重要角色，守護國家安全。近期大陸演習頻仍，包括今年5月及10月聯合利劍環臺演習、大陸船舶侵擾我國海域灰色地帶事件頻傳，海巡署多能布署妥適因應，海巡弟兄共同戍守我國海域，確保國家安全，維護國家主權。","政府鑑於海巡勤務日益繁重，逐步增撥員額，海巡署也加強辦理招募活動，包括深耕校園服務、強化網路招募等，及提高海巡部隊加給、新增國軍戰航管官兵勤務加給、制定留營獎勵等措施，強化現職人員留才，但是亦常傳出人員不適應，辦理離退，第一線海巡人力吃緊。本席想就教審計長以下幾個問題：","(一)因應國際情勢緊張，海巡勤務日益繁重，海巡署113年度預算員額編制12,605人，實際進用人員是多少？","(二)媒體常報導人員不適應離退，實際離退情形及原因為何？海巡署有無輔導？審計部有沒有提出相關審計意見？","四、12月4日國道1號湖口路段發生重大車禍，金融及虛幣犯罪調查專家（陳梅慧小姐）不幸身亡，各界質疑案情並不單純，新竹地檢署已啟動偵辦，調閱國道高速公路監視系統等紀錄，用以釐清有關車輛行經軌跡，進行車人分析，輔助案件調查，顯示監視系統等為維護社會安全及輔助調查案件重要工具之一。","據悉現行中央及地方政府為因應業務需要，許多單位都已開發建置車牌辨識系統或電子標籤（eTage）系統，像國道高速公路局為徵收國道通行費委外建置電子收費系統、警政署辦理建構涉案車輛監控查緝網等計畫，於全國重要道路裝設車辨系統，以蒐集行車紀錄資料，並建置系統平台以蒐整分析相關資料等。本席想就教審計長以下幾個問題：","(一)政府各單位建置之車牌辨識系統本來就應該相互可介接，統一運用才能發揮最大效益，為什麼112年度中央政府總決算審核報告【第2冊海洋委員會主管項下重要審核意見第4項揭露（丙-764至767）】，提到海巡署偵防分署為加強執行海域緝毒，建置港區及聯外道路車辨系統，惟尚待介接內政部警政署重要道路車辨系統資源，整合各相關系統使用介面及軌跡資料等意見，海巡署偵防分署為何未積極介接各單位系統，究竟遭遇到什麼困難？","(二)另外現行中央及地方政府為因應業務需要，各自開發建置車牌辨識系統或電子標籤（eTage）系統，就整個政府觀點，所取得資料應該整併讓有法律授權之權責機關，在兼顧民眾隱私的合法及合理範圍查詢運用，才能提升偵辦效能，有效打擊犯罪。對於車牌辨識系統或電子標籤（eTage）系統相互介接，審計長看法如何？"],["主席：接下來，請登記第5號林德福委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}},{"id":"158193","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158193","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711c03dc9c74b06cf693b05e405f736a88db82411c1dea8c2d76cbfbb2dae5f8c4225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"14:58:50 - 15:14:20","影片長度":"00:15:30","會議時間":"2024-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第13次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「勞動部前部長何佩珊及勞動力發展署北分署前分署長謝宜容應受嚴厲之譴責，並移送監察院及檢調單位，如情節重大者將撤職查辦，永不再任公職。」是否有當？請公決案等25案。（12月13日）二、同意權之行使事項：總統咨，依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗玲、黃東益、伊萬•納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。（12月17日上午）三、審計長列席報告中華民國112年度中央政府總決算審核報告案審核經過並備諮詢。（12月17日下午））","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-17","start_time":"2024-12-17T14:58:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-17T15:14:20+08:00","duration":930,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第13次會議","id":"院會-11-2-13","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.14284375,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.665968750000001,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.53471875,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.976593750000003,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.95534375,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.01846875,"end":30.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.06409375,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.22409375,"end":75.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.20471875,"end":79.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.95096875,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.32096875,"end":88.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.81034375,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.34596875000001,"end":92.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.19784375,"end":94.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.25659375000001,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.54284375,"end":102.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.56346875000001,"end":109.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.66784375,"end":110.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.17409375000001,"end":111.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.37221875,"end":134.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.96346875,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.19034375,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.34596875,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.12221875,"end":148.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.69159375,"end":148.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.91909375,"end":151.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.04096875000002,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.41409375,"end":180.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.57221875000002,"end":202.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.01284375,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.59846875000002,"end":204.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.79221875000002,"end":209.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.17534375000002,"end":229.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.67159375000003,"end":221.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.42971875,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.29784375000003,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.97221875000002,"end":241.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.81596875000002,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":241.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.98471875,"end":242.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.03534375,"end":242.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.08596875,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.15346875,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.17034375000003,"end":242.18721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.18721875000003,"end":248.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.05534375000002,"end":251.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.22784375,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.26159375,"end":254.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.10409375,"end":262.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.58909375,"end":265.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.43284375,"end":264.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.12034375,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.27846875,"end":281.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.57346875,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.69159375000004,"end":281.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.75909375000003,"end":291.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.66471875,"end":294.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.49971875,"end":303.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.81471875,"end":304.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.37159375000005,"end":307.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.16846875000005,"end":308.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.82659375000003,"end":310.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.69971875000005,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.38721875000005,"end":313.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.50096875,"end":316.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.31909375000004,"end":332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謝謝院長 也要麻煩邀請我們陳機長麻煩陳省機長"},{"start":24.005,"end":42.608,"text":"廖委員好沈機長好這個延續剛剛中委員的議題因為救安基金應該是國人最近非常關心的一個政府預算質詢的一個相當大的一個社會議題大家非常的關心那除了先前可能大家有提到的演唱會的問題啊辦公室優化"},{"start":44.069,"end":62.763,"text":"等等的問題之外昨天在民眾黨有黨民眾黨也有召開相關的記者會也有提出一些其他相關的問題比如說媒體採購的限制性的招標問題或者是說他們的拍影片以及他的成效的問題那以及這個可能一些紀念品等等的"},{"start":63.223,"end":89.671,"text":"那剛剛這個沈縣長說相關的救安基金的專案報告之前提一個院內會提出來嘛那譬如說以個人演唱會這件事情來講應該是2022年的時候的事情那我們在那件事情發生之後有沒有我們有沒有我們這個省基部有沒有提出任何的相關的報告或檢討針對救安基金的缺失提出相關的一些糾正有在新聞爆發之前"},{"start":90.593,"end":109.347,"text":"第一個他連續3年啦虧了差不多200億要勞動部啊要去好好檢討第二個我們收回啊為何他救安基金用的收回他差不多沒有符合規定的租出3億多元"},{"start":110.368,"end":126.89,"text":"第三個他在補助一些社會團體社會單位差不多100多家但是我們查這100多家長年連續三年都違反勞動法令要他要勞動部好好檢討"},{"start":127.911,"end":150.346,"text":"大概我們都會就這些包括他的收支並結算我們都會提出來好所以針對就葉安丁基金長期來可能對我們省基部來說也算是長期的一個黑名單了啦應該是我們都會注意他會注意他特別他注意他的就這個使用的狀況有沒有符合我們的法令那按照我們的這個"},{"start":152.079,"end":180.569,"text":"法定規定我們如果說在我們的預算使用上面依照我們審計法第21條如果說有各機關違背預算或者是有關法定的不當支出我們可以事後剔除追繳之那想請問一下那我們就是針對救安基金比如說剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會或者是辦公室裝潢的這個部分我們後續會不會提出這個剔除以及追繳"},{"start":181.798,"end":209.178,"text":"八位委員我們所謂因為這個大家全國人民關心我們已經派我們的同仁去查核是初步發現為符合基金用途的有將近五千多億五千多萬五千多萬抱歉五千多萬這五千多萬我們大概會收回會幫忙收回像這個和採購異常的或者這個我們會移送檢調"},{"start":210.74,"end":217.839,"text":"像未竟執著的我們會移送監察案那剛剛上面講的這些都是有包含剔除跟追繳嗎?"},{"start":219.366,"end":243.222,"text":"大部分都收回的地方就是如果他有一些很明確的違背法令我們就會追繳或剔除追繳那這個追繳的對象是因為要回去看這個責任我們會請勞動部去這個問題給他他會給我們回覆會順路當然大家最關心追繳的對象是誰你是跟機關追繳還是跟違法運用經費的這個當時的這個公職人員來追繳"},{"start":249.088,"end":249.169,"text":"因為這個是這樣"},{"start":252.733,"end":281.179,"text":"這兩個都可能要看你們後續的調查採購人員因為這個為什麼要做這樣的採購呢我們可能他涉及違法那他就要盡到檢調比如說許前部長他不會是採購人員嗎他不會是第一線採購人員嗎對那如果是他那個沙龍罩那這個可能就我們可能就會請他那個單位我們會請他收回他就怎麼收回我們會瞭解他是不是向個人收回"},{"start":281.539,"end":303.117,"text":"好 所以說在之後的一個﹐你們講的一個月的時間的報告提出報告的時候我可不可以拜託沈記長是否針對這一些你們認為有違法違規或是不當使用的一些經費你們評估一下哪些經費你們認為應該要踢除追繳哪一些不用那並把你們認為要不要的理由續名這可不可以"},{"start":304.418,"end":331.96,"text":"可以 就到時候在報告裡面都可以看得一清二楚我們審計部的立場另外一點我先謝謝審計長那另外一點就是因為基金喔特別好用啦所以很多單位都喜歡用那我們就業安定基金他有沒有哪一項他的特別的可能業務啊或是等等他的功能有沒有什麼東西是本預算沒有辦法可能就是勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法來這個達成他的目標任務的"},{"start":337.495,"end":354.786,"text":"我們的收入大概就是這個移工的移工的收入嘛對不對移工的這個雇主繳的錢那支出當然就是這是穩定我們的就業那這些預算用在基金邊跟本預算邊他如果說要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話有沒有自愛難行的地方"},{"start":355.768,"end":382.425,"text":"就是預算編列的問題應該是沒有就是說救安基金他是有專用專款專用的一個性質他要用到那個法就業服務法裡面注定的促進國民就業提供勞工扶植這一方面他一定要用到他沒有用到這方面就是要在他的公務預算裡面編列不能在這裡來"},{"start":385.967,"end":410.829,"text":"來編（來租用所以就是因為剛剛沈記長有跟大家說明救安基金這幾年操置並決算的情況非常嚴重這就是基金的好處大家都要用基金我可以操置我到時候再並決算就好了那照剛剛沈記長講的既然他的問題這麼嚴重前科雷雷那他又沒有那個絕對存在不可替代的必要的話那沈記長你認為救安基金"},{"start":412.051,"end":438.828,"text":"如果說我們來提倡把他廢除的話您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見把就業安定基金廢除回到勞動部的本預算去執行他的所有預算的收支就業安定基金是可以檢討廢除可能知識體大因為他已經行之三十幾年了所以有他的可是剛剛沈記長說他的所有的支出都應該都是可以編在本預算內啊"},{"start":440.178,"end":464.207,"text":"然後他的撤職並決算的情況又這麼嚴重不受監督早年財政困難的時候有時候真的有一個專款專用對促進國民就業就提供勞工扶植會相當重要所以這個要慎重好沒關係那這一部分可不可以一併納入我們省機部的一個專案報告裡面"},{"start":465.087,"end":492.379,"text":"好就是針對就位基金他存在的必要性如果說你們認為他有存在的必要的話那你就序明清楚讓大家知道你們的專業獨立的意見好謝謝好謝謝沈機長那另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們的審查的一些情況那我們的立法院預算中心提出提出幾個意見也有些意見就是針對中央政府的整體媒體宣傳費用的規模的增長那"},{"start":493.98,"end":515.72,"text":"一部分是金額的提高一部分是有許多的部分機關就是他可能他把這個媒體的相關的費用閃編在公務或是非基金的非營業基金或是特別預算當中那沈記長您認為同樣一個可能他是同樣的一個主管同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人他把這些媒體的這個"},{"start":517.923,"end":523.961,"text":"廣告的宣傳費用．拆散到不同的單位．部長．這個沈機長．您認為這樣是事宜的做法嗎?"},{"start":526.518,"end":550.293,"text":"這個政慾先導經會我們專案查了三年三年都專案調查我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考後來他也訂立了專項但是他有的是說他會放在婚姻樂園裡面也有公務也有所以但是我們在查核的時候我們會把這幾個一起"},{"start":552.854,"end":554.495,"text":"是否有規避監督的想法?"},{"start":575.899,"end":599.239,"text":"如果說我們過去都有在做一些專案在跟行政院來溝通的話代表說沈記長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用不只是媒體宣傳費用啦應該是相關的費用如果說能夠集中一個這個主管機關來編列的話對於我們事後的稽查或者是他的公開透明來講的話應該都是有正面的幫助委員這個意見很好但是行政部門啊他有他的考慮也有他的相當困難"},{"start":600.046,"end":614.04,"text":"是,好,沒關係,那至少是省紀長是認同這樣子的意見那行政機關他們有如果說不這樣做的話他們應該要續名理由為什麼他們要這樣子做好,沒有問題,好謝謝,好謝謝省紀長那第三個,第三個我們來討論一下這個採購的一些這個問題啦"},{"start":617.904,"end":631.45,"text":"那這個採購的問題如果說有一個機關他針對類似的品項招商招標有高度集中化的一個現象那您認為會有一些哪些的後遺症高"},{"start":633.18,"end":654.45,"text":"高度集中化集中到某一個產家這個我們會注意要他多次都集中這個產家我們就會列為高度風險我們會專案查核我們先不要預測說這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分我們不要預測他這樣子的一個現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的一個影響"},{"start":655.33,"end":682.891,"text":"一般大家公務機關如果他是優良的他可以幫忙這個機關我們大概就這個是因為他是有時候找他可以把他的整個建築各方面的採購做得很好也有他這個工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的一個方法但是我們目前我們對於這些採購一點差不多有"},{"start":685.013,"end":702.028,"text":"有19萬件差不多有兩兆億元的採購我想跟審議長報告的是高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題依賴性過強的問題不利於市場的公平競爭那你跟在廠方的這個談判或議約、議價之間你的主動權會相對的比這個"},{"start":707.925,"end":720.311,"text":"這個這個充分競爭的一個市場來的第一嘛對不對是那所以說正在我們採購立場上我今天要提的是我們的國防預算我們這幾年其實在早年我們中華民國的國防的採購"},{"start":721.796,"end":740.611,"text":"並沒有說這個專門要就是專門都向哪一個國家採購比如說我們過去常跟美國採購也會跟法國採購無論是我們的幻象戰機或者是我們的可能拉法葉艦雖然說它過程發生一些弊案但是我們原來這樣它的分散有分散的好處但是近年來我們中華民國呢"},{"start":741.531,"end":764.327,"text":"軍備的採購長期的集中在美國這一個單一的國家那產生的長期的依賴性他就會產生了一些的後遺症產生後遺症比如說我們媒體常常報道說美軍相關的軍備採購案他常常會有延宕交貨的一塊的情形這部分應該我們審計部也都有在對國防部的時候也都會有集合到嘛"},{"start":764.927,"end":789.293,"text":"有,像這個大概我們現在集合到的差不多有兩千多有兩千八百多億的備存帳在美國也有一千五百多億的那個延後交貨甚至是他可能是簽約了之後再預約也有可能預約之後他就不算在這裡面了"},{"start":793.42,"end":813.146,"text":"這樣子的一個情形就會對於我們的充值我們的國防他絕對是一個潛在的一個因子我們今天花了那麼多錢他的東西沒有辦法如時如約的如期的來交貨就會對我們的國防產生了一個可能產生了一些漏洞那針對這個部分我不曉得國防部針對他們的機密預算我們審計部也有辦法集合到嗎"},{"start":814.139,"end":826.613,"text":"都有都可以集合到大概經過案是高度的軍事和政治的一個因素還是有國家上位的政策還要考慮到國家整個國家安全各方面的事情"},{"start":833.12,"end":857.466,"text":"但是就是可能近年包括我們國防部﹐給我們立法院的一個報告﹐包括我們的高效能反專甲飛彈﹐F16的一些性能提升﹐還有我們新式戰機的採購﹐在他們可能換約了之後還是有延宕的情形﹐那就可能會﹐他的更早的一個起因﹐可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍﹐他認為我們只有單一的窗口﹐我們不會去跟英國﹐我們不會去跟法國﹐我們不會去跟其他國家來進行軍購﹐"},{"start":858.926,"end":881.298,"text":"所以他可能在跟我們的談判上面他會比較強勢甚至美國他們對於這個海外軍售的制度是只要在發架書的最後年度前交貨就是可能會有這個階段性嘛他們不管階段性他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲那這樣子的一個合約的簽訂您認為是適當的嗎我們有請國防部檢討"},{"start":885.611,"end":900.271,"text":"國防部檢討以後對於不管是任何國家只要有相關的軍備的採購案當初合約怎麼訂沒有特殊的原因那就必須要如期如約的來交貨"},{"start":901.272,"end":924.721,"text":"那他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎?我們政府任何政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金啊那軍公案會有嗎?軍公案他在訂的時候是沒有我們目前沒有看也要求他我們在查核的時候發現這種現象所以我們也有要求國防部應該要有這樣的一個機制要去能夠對這一方面做一個要求那就麻煩我們審計部繼續針對上述的問題來提出一些建議給我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":192,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（14時59分）謝謝院長，一樣麻煩邀請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：審計長好。延續剛剛鍾委員的議題，就安基金應該是國人最近非常關心，也是政府預算執行的一個相當大的社會議題。除了先前可能大家提到的演唱會的問題、辦公室優化等等的問題之外，昨天友黨民眾黨也召開相關的記者會，也有提出一些其他的相關問題，譬如媒體採購限制性招標的問題，或者是他們拍影片及其成效的問題，以及一些紀念品等等。剛剛審計長說針對就安基金相關的專案報告，之前說一個月內會提出來，譬如以個人演唱會這件事情來講，這應該是2022年那時候的事情，在那一件事情發生之後，審計部有沒有提出任何的相關報告或檢討，針對就安基金的缺失提出相關的糾正？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["廖委員先翔：在新聞爆發之前？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：第一個，它連續三年虧了差不多200億，我們要求勞動部要好好檢討。第二個，我們收回就安基金沒有符合規定的支出三億多元。第三個，它補助事業單位差不多一百多家，但是我們查這一百多家連續三年都違反勞動法令，所以我們要求勞動部要好好檢討。我們都會就這些事項，包括它的收支併決算，我們都會提出來。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就業安定基金對審計部來說，可能也算是長期的黑名單了，它的缺失案件特別多。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該是我們都會注意它。"],["廖委員先翔：特別注意它的使用狀況有沒有符合我們的法令嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["廖委員先翔：按照我們的法令規定，就預算使用而言，依照審計法第二十一條，如果各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出，我們可以事後剔除追繳之。我想請問一下，針對就安基金的支出，譬如剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會，或者是辦公室裝潢的部分，後續會不會提出剔除以及追繳？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，因為這個問題全國人民都關心，我們在12月初已經派同仁去查核，初步發現未符合基金用途的有五千多萬，這五千多萬我們大概會幫忙收回，採購異常的我們會移送檢調，未盡職責的我們會移送監察院。"],["廖委員先翔：剛剛上面講的這一些都有包含剔除跟追繳嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：大部分收回的地方……"],["廖委員先翔：收回就是……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果它有一些很明確的違背法令，我們就會追繳或剔除。"],["廖委員先翔：這個追繳的對象是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要回去看責任歸屬，我們會把這個問題給勞動部，它會給我們申覆。"],["廖委員先翔：大家最關心追繳的對象是誰？是跟機關追繳，還是跟當時違法運用經費的公職人員追繳？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個是這樣，如果……"],["廖委員先翔：還是兩個都有可能？要看你們後續的調查？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：像採購人員，為什麼要做這樣的採購呢？可能他涉及違法，那他就要進到檢調。"],["廖委員先翔：比如許前部長，他不會是第一線採購人員啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，如果是他的沙龍照，那我們可能就會請那個單位收回，至於它怎麼收回，我們會了解它是不是向個人收回。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以在之後你們所講的一個月的時間提出報告的時候，我可不可以請審計長針對這一些你們認為有違法、違規或是不當使用的經費，請你們評估一下哪些經費你們認為應該要剔除追繳，哪一些不用，並把你們認為要不要的理由敘明，這可不可以？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以。"],["廖委員先翔：就是到時候在報告裡面都可以看得一清二楚，也就是審計部的立場。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["廖委員先翔：我先謝謝審計長。另外一點，因為基金特別好用，所以很多單位都喜歡用。以就業安定基金而言，它有沒有哪一項特別的業務，或者它的功能是本預算沒有辦法……可能是勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法達成它的目標或任務的？剛剛鍾佳濱委員有講，它的收入大概就是移工的雇主繳的錢，它的支出當然就是用來穩定我們的就業，這些預算在基金編列跟在本預算編列，如果要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話，有沒有窒礙難行的地方？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這是預算編列的問題，應該是沒有。就安基金有專款專用的性質，它要用到就業服務法所指定的促進國民就業、提供勞工福祉，這一方面它一定要用到，它沒有用到……"],["廖委員先翔：所以本預算都可以支應嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就是要在它的公務預算裡面編列，而不能在這裡來編、來支用。"],["廖委員先翔：因為剛剛審計長也有跟大家說明，就安基金這幾年超支併決算的情況非常嚴重，這就是基金的好處，大家都要用基金，我可以超支，到時候再併決算就好了。照剛剛審計長講的，既然它的問題這麼嚴重，前科累累，它又沒有絕對存在、不可替代的必要的話，審計長，你認為就業安定基金如果我們來提倡把它廢除的話，您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就業安定基金可以檢討……"],["廖委員先翔：就是把就業安定基金廢除，回到勞動部的本預算去執行所有預算的收支。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：就業安定基金是可以檢討的，廢除可能茲事體大，因為它已經行之三十幾年了，所以有它的必要。"],["廖委員先翔：可是剛剛審計長說它所有的支出都應該可以編在本預算內，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為……"],["廖委員先翔：然後它的超支併決算的情況又這麼嚴重，不受監督。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：早年財政困難的時候，有時候有一個專款專用，對促進國民就業、提高勞工福祉會相當重要，所以這個要慎重。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，這部分可不可以也一併納入審計部的專案報告裡面？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["廖委員先翔：就是針對就安基金存在的必要性，如果你們認為它有存在的必要的話，你們就敘明清楚，讓大家知道你們專業獨立的意見。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝審計長。另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們審查的情況，我們立法院預算中心也有提出幾個意見，就是針對中央政府整體媒體宣傳費用規模的增長，一部分是金額的提高，一部分是有許多的機關可能把媒體的相關費用散編在公務、非營業基金或者是特別預算當中。審計長，您認為同樣一個主管、同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人，他把這些媒體廣告的宣傳費用拆散到不同的單位，審計長，您認為這樣是適宜的做法嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：針對政令宣導經費，我們專案查了3年，3年都進行專案調查，我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考，後來它也訂定一個專項，但是有的會放在非營業裡面，公務也有，但是我們在查核的時候會把這幾個一起看、一起檢討。"],["廖委員先翔：對，其實營業基金可以理解，營業基金另外看都沒有問題，但是公務預算跟非營業基金如果把一筆應該要用的款項拆分下來，都會讓人家懷疑當初是不是有規避監督的想法，會讓人家這樣子懷疑。所以如果我們過去都有做一些專案跟行政院來溝通的話，代表審計長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用，不只是媒體宣傳費用，應該是相關的費用如果能夠集中由一個主管機關來編列的話，對我們事後的稽查或者是它的公開透明來講的話，應該都是有正面的幫助。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員這個意見很好，但是行政部門有它的考慮，也有它的相當困難。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，至少審計長認同這樣子的意見，行政機關如果不這樣做的話，他們應該要敘明理由，說明為什麼他們要這樣子做，好，沒有問題。謝謝審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：第三個，我們來討論一下採購的一些問題。如果有一個機關針對類似的品項招商、招標有高度集中化的現象，您認為會有哪些後遺症？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：高……"],["廖委員先翔：高度集中化。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：集中到某一個廠家？"],["廖委員先翔：對，廠商。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們會注意，要是它多次都集中在這個廠家，我們就會列為高度風險，會專案查核。"],["廖委員先翔：我們先不要臆測這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分，我們不要臆測它，但是這樣子的現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的影響？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般公務機關來講，如果廠家是優良的，它可以幫忙這個機關，我們大概就是……"],["廖委員先翔：長期配合，沒有問題。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為它是信用良好，有時候找它可以把整個建築或各方面的採購做得很好，工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的方法，但是我們目前對於這些採購，一年差不多有19萬件，差不多有兩兆餘元的採購……"],["廖委員先翔：我想跟審計長報告的是，高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題，不利於市場的公平競爭，你與廠商之間的談判或議約、議價，你的主動權會相對的比充分競爭的市場來得低，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["廖委員先翔：所以站在採購的立場上，我今天要提的是我們的國防預算，其實在早年中華民國的國防採購並沒有專門都向哪個國家採購，譬如我們過去常跟美國採購，也會跟法國採購，無論是幻象戰機或拉法葉艦，雖然它的過程發生一些弊案，原則上分散有分散的好處。但是近年來中華民國的軍備採購長期集中在美國這個單一國家，產生的長期依賴性就會產生了一些後遺症，譬如媒體報導美軍相關的軍備採購案常常會有延宕交貨的情形，這部分審計部在對國防部稽核的時候也都會稽核到嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我們現在稽核到的差不多有兩千八百多億的備償帳在美國，也有一千五百多億的延後交貨。"],["廖委員先翔：延宕交貨？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["廖委員先翔：甚至可能是簽約了之後再議約，也有可能議約之後就不算在這裡面了，這樣子的情形對於充實我們的國防絕對是一個潛在的因子，我們今天花了那麼多錢，但是它東西沒有辦法如實、如約、如期的交貨，就會對我們的國防可能產生了一些漏洞，針對這個部分，我不曉得針對國防部的機密預算，審計部也有辦法稽核到嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：都有。"],["廖委員先翔：都可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：都可以稽核到，軍購案是高度的軍事和政治的因素……"],["廖委員先翔：它還是會有國家上位的政策，要跟哪個國家採購……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，這個還要考慮到整個國家安全各方面的事情。"],["廖委員先翔：但是近年國防部給立法院的報告，包括高效能反裝甲飛彈、F-16的一些性能提升，還有新式戰機的採購，在他們換約了之後還是有延宕的情形，其更早的起因可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍，它認為我們只有單一的窗口，我們不會去跟英國、我們不會去跟法國、我們不會去跟其他國家進行軍購，所以它可能在跟我們的談判上面會比較強勢，甚至美國對於海外軍售的制度是只要在發價書的最後年度前交貨，可能會有階段性，也就是他們不管階段性，他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲，這樣子的合約簽訂，您認為是適當的嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有請國防部檢討。"],["廖委員先翔：請國防部檢討？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們也有發現這樣的問題，請國防部要好好的檢討。"],["廖委員先翔：就是以後對於不管是任何國家，只要有相關的軍備採購案，當初合約怎麼訂，沒有特殊的原因就必須要如期、如約的交貨，他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎？我們任何的政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金，軍購案會有嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：軍購案在訂定的時候是沒有，我們目前沒有看到，我們也在查核的時候發現這種現象……"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們有要求國防部應該要有這樣子的機制？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有要求國防部要對這一方面做一個要求。"],["廖委員先翔：那就麻煩審計部繼續針對上述的問題提出一些建議給我們，讓國家更加精進。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的詢答。","報告院會，現在在我們議場2樓旁聽的是來自美國智庫東西中心2024年Jefferson獎金計畫的資深記者團，Welcome！Ladies and Gentlemen！我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來請登記第3位林憶君委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}},{"id":"158192","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158192","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711c0f9e7884fc3ce7aab05e405f736a88db4c8e3f6799335ecc70aa9f53cbca5dff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"14:43:00 - 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那我們來問一下這個特題你知道就業安定基金吧就業安定基金的來源跟用途你大概知道嗎加強國民就業好它大概有將近八成是來自於僱主使用國外移工必須繳的費用它其中的包含三個作用第一它辦理有關這個國民就業第二要提供勞工的福祉第三它要處理有關外國人的"},{"start":129.5,"end":156.629,"text":"拼固管理好 那我們來看一下112年度到底用了哪些你覺得哪個部分用了最多錢提振勞工福祉5%外國人的拼固管理11%用諸多的是不是促進本國國民的就業對的好 那你認為在疫情期間我們提供本國人的薪資補貼算不算算那如果像花東大地震災後的災民他的從晚就業這算不算算"},{"start":157.125,"end":172.594,"text":"好那我們看下一頁那如果說以這次勞發署北分署他用來裝修他分署長他的辦公室安裝軌道燈花了140多萬這算不算救安基金的合法用途這有點勉強"},{"start":174.963,"end":175.823,"text":"為什麼這些人員要中央一條片來指派?"},{"start":196.221,"end":215.42,"text":"因為要獨立要獨立要內部集合要集合這個機關首長有沒有內機內控對不對對如果以這個北分署來講把救安基因拿去裝修首長的辦公室誰應該發現是不是主計或會計主任要發現說不能核銷應該那如果他核銷了那這個主計主任是不是失職"},{"start":222.835,"end":237.862,"text":"那另外人事主任．如果機關內部的員工．經常超時加班．加入來加班．那這個人事主任是不是發現有異常．表示酬長的內部的人事派遣猜情有問題．要不要提出報告要如果沒有提出來．人事主任有沒有失職"},{"start":239.708,"end":248.421,"text":"好那最後一個政風如果機關內部這麼多問題政風一定要接到檢舉如果政風接到檢舉沒有來查辦政風有沒有失職"},{"start":250.493,"end":275.295,"text":"應該有好那我們看這些都是中央一條邊指派到各機關像勞分署這是四級機關那他們跟首長的關係他是要監督跟輔佐首長對不對對如果被首長摸摸頭了他們完全失禁內部的紀錄功能誰來監督這些幕僚機關你覺得誰還可以監督他他來監督首長的結果他自己卻同流合污怎麼辦"},{"start":278.442,"end":288.304,"text":"我請教他要報告他的上級他就是被摸頭啦被收買啦他同流合污啊來我們來看一看審計單位的職能他是一個外部監督政府財政"},{"start":289.189,"end":309.72,"text":"一個政府機關你們審計室各界審計室是每年要跟這些行政機關中央地方跟他看到審計報告跟他調一些數據出來做一些審查對不對對你覺得審計部跟你們的審計室有沒有可能去發掘機關內部政風人士跟會計他出了問題有沒有可能發掘"},{"start":312.122,"end":319.708,"text":"如果他在預算的資料上有問題就地抽查以後有可能發生有可能 如果你們發生問題你們要怎麼做我沒退"},{"start":321.602,"end":343.855,"text":"你們怎麼做?會移送,像這個未競組者,會移送他的相關單位。如果是財務上設有不法或重大違私,你們要移送上級機關,或交給監察院或司法機關嗎?對。所以這一件,勞發署的北分署可能有這個問題,你們就會做這樣的行為嗎?對不對?對。那如果是預算執行校能部長,你們突出審核報告,你們機關回覆審核意見之後,"},{"start":344.835,"end":353.714,"text":"他要負政治責任嘛,社長負政治責任嘛,是不是這樣?所以一個是政治責任,一個是法律跟刑法上或受懲戒的責任。是不是有這個,你們有這個能力?"},{"start":355.609,"end":375.38,"text":"審計報告可以敦促機關首長．面對他的政治責任．或者是他要去面對．他因為違法．他的法律責任．跟刑事．或公務員受懲處的責任．這是你們的責任．對沒有錯好那請問你認為．目前審計部．你們年度的審計報告．還有你們手下的審計室．有沒有對中央或地方機關．達到這樣的功能"},{"start":378.108,"end":402.465,"text":"應該我們都有這樣有沒有統計有有那你們目前因為你們的審計報告發掘出這些不管是預算執行效能不彰還是因為機關內部設有不法或重大違私要負起法律責任或刑事責任或移送監察院懲戒的有沒有有那大概怎麼樣數字怎麼樣每年怎麼樣存報監察案這五年一千多件一千多件移送涉及刑事案件2859案是"},{"start":406.367,"end":434.764,"text":"通知各機關查明處分的有2037人次剛剛講的增進財務效能的建議和重要審核意見我們這五年提出了一萬兩千多件那這樣的成績你滿意嗎?這樣的成績你滿意嗎?你作為審計長你作為審計單位你滿意嗎?我們會盡量再來加油那像勞發署、北分署這個情況你們有沒有查出來?有有,那你們做出了什麼樣的一個處置?"},{"start":436.629,"end":458.319,"text":"第一個他的未競逐者的他有那個採購異常的我們就移送檢調那檢察院呢未競逐者的我們依照我們的審計法第69條移送監察院你們送了沒有最近這個報告正在加快啦全國都在看好我接下一個問題好來"},{"start":459.67,"end":461.612,"text":"水資源是影響農業產量的重要關鍵因素。我們看到這幾年來我們的"},{"start":478.133,"end":496.38,"text":"農業部的農田水利建設從127億成長200億到接下來2025年下來會有212億你認為農田水利設施的更新改善跟軍務的復興、跨域整合還有精準化的灌溉措施以擴大灌牌戶你覺得哪一項影響農民哪一項要最優先做"},{"start":498.646,"end":527.122,"text":"這事項都很重要但是龍田水利設施更新改善這是影響最大那我們來看一下現在農業部說怎麼樣他說沒有灌溉用水當然影響到農民耕作所以他們做到了擴大灌溉服務達到五萬六千公頃過去水利會的時代有分灌區內他才處理灌區外的不處理現在灌區外的農民認為有需要他可以跟農田水利組織申請農田會幫他做這些農田水利設施對不對對"},{"start":528.183,"end":541.09,"text":"好那請問一下如果我的農田原來在你們的灌區外現在你說願意幫我服務我就提出申請在你還沒有幫我做之前請問我的農地上沒有辦法好好的發揮農業效應農業部怎麼辦農民怎麼辦"},{"start":545.089,"end":549.691,"text":"如果灌溉設施未完善,主管機關要不要制定補償措施?"},{"start":563.932,"end":581.445,"text":"應該要目前國土計劃法我們的農業發展區有第一類第二類還有其他類但是我被化為農業發展區之後我就限制我做其他的使用但是如果政府的灌開措施設施還沒有到我進來我沒辦法做我的農田發展那你覺得政府有沒有意外補償"},{"start":582.622,"end":603.258,"text":"以限定人民的使用你又沒有提供他足夠的配屬設施政府要不要補償我們有向農業部提出這樣的建議就是跟我說的認同優先改善農業發展預定區的農田水庫設施如果還沒有做我們就要補償你同意嗎我同意好那我們來看一下現在根據土地稅法"},{"start":604.459,"end":631.986,"text":"在非都的地區他編定了農業用地那他是最後前戶但是都市土地若他的公共設施未完俊前如果能做農地使用的不收地價稅是不是這也是一種補償嘛對我是可以工業用地我可以蓋工廠但是你沒有開闢道路我不能做工廠我自己去做農業用地那你不能跟我收什麼工業用地的地價稅嘛對好但是我們農地不收農戶我們等一下看"},{"start":632.566,"end":643.552,"text":"那是不是呢,我們可以根據下一個,你可以要求農業部徵金新增的科目預算．對於過去經濟部．若久旱不雨．他會調度農業用水．經濟部會給農民的休耕補償．對不對?對"},{"start":647.694,"end":662.486,"text":"那如果不是因為天氣久旱不宇．是因為農業部的灌溉設施未達．我農地沒辦法灌溉．沒辦法做好的友善耕作．你認不認為農業部或你們支持．要編列預算科目的用途．來補償農民．你這不支持"},{"start":663.624,"end":688.242,"text":"應該要由農業部好好的來檢討很好,所以你要監督農業部新增預算科目提出相對應的補償所以我們看最後就是說有水才有田農灌溉設施是農權如果我們政府應提供而未提供農業設施的話那我們這個不是施捨政府要提出補償措施能不能督導我們行政部門要具體的趕快提出改善方案"},{"start":689.022,"end":713.844,"text":"可以嗎?好,那我們再往下看齁來,我先問你如果你是老師全班的總平均是95分全班總平均95分喔只有一個是考不到70分的其他都98分今天你跟校長說我要把全班的平均分數從90分往上拉高你是要幫助那些98分以上的考100分還是先把那個70分的拉起來"},{"start":714.793,"end":743.888,"text":"把70分的拉起來空間就有效益嘛對不對對好那我們來往下看同樣的我們來看臺灣的自來水普及我們的卓院長說我們的自來水普及率95%已經都有了剩下的5%沒有所以你認為未來自來水的普及要從這5%去擴大要找哪一個地方找普及率高的還是找普及率低的找普及率低的很好我們來看一下目前我們自來水的屏東只有全國未達八成"},{"start":744.741,"end":760.96,"text":"我們全國的普及率是95%那過去這幾年我們屏東成功的在短短3年內因為前瞻基礎建設的支持我們從63%提升到72%增加了6%、5%好那請問你往下看你認為接下來我們自來水的沿管工程"},{"start":761.6,"end":782.225,"text":"是要去針對已經普及率95%的繼續去找那個還剩下人口少偏遠的管型要較長的還是要找像屏東這種普及率低還有很多人口稠密的地方他的管線施設比較短的地方優先去做哪個成本比較低應該是普及率低的像屏東這樣的地方你完全認同嗎好那我們來往下看"},{"start":782.93,"end":806.366,"text":"各縣市的延緩工程的平均成本就像你說的沒有錯普及率越高的他要繼續施工的成本比較高普及率低的像屏東只要不到16萬就可以做到一戶了所以全國目前有超過51%的經費是用在屏東其他各縣市用的比較少你認為這樣的分配是合理還是不合理你認為屏東用比較多合不合理"},{"start":807.042,"end":830.331,"text":"合理很合理那未來如果我們這樣的相關計劃的經費運用是不是要繼續加碼投資屏東縣這是應該往這方面來那所以我的結論就是說相較於其他縣市站在審計部你們績效審計的立場提高全屏東縣的自來水的普及率對於全國的自來水普及的最惠禮錄是不是最有幫助"},{"start":831.227,"end":838.888,"text":"對的那你們審計部的審計報告未來在看這樣的相關的水利或自來水普及工程你們會提出這樣的建議給行政院嗎"},{"start":840.095,"end":860.651,"text":"向委員報告我們今年在赫佐114年的上半年在做無住來水地區的專案審計專案調查是我們會把委員的這些看法觀點納進考慮這不是我的觀點你完全認同就是審計部的意見了因為這都是合規合理的嘛"},{"start":861.411,"end":880.645,"text":"在那你們的職責你們就應該建議吧不是因為中委員建議嘛應該是你們本於職責這樣建議是不是這樣對你審計部是獨立機關那又不是我中加兵的指令是不是這樣有一個問題啊因為他的湖流水啊湖流水很發達支援服務所以啊接管的人啊"},{"start":881.946,"end":906.889,"text":"好像醫院也不是那麼強你放心,前幾年缺餘啊＼地下水抽不到＼大家都嚇壞了＼大家都要裝置來說那應該就在這個機會啊＼趕快把他補給民眾的醫院不是問題政府的經費是要加強挹注好,來最後的結論就是說除了我剛剛說的救安基金你們的審計你們要發揮最後監督的審計功能監督機關裡面才,就是政風"},{"start":908.049,"end":931.79,"text":"主計跟人事你們要作為這些監督單位最後的最終監督你們要做這兩個審計部對決算審核報告因監督農業部透過預算科目的增列提供尚無灌溉服務地區的補償措施你知不支持我們會來做一個審計的那個檢討好那另外自來水的普及你也支持你剛剛的做法對不對對"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":36,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（14時43分）主席、在場的議事工作人員、審計長及隨同官員以及旁聽席的國民。今天我們就審計部進行諮詢，要請主席邀請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長好。我今天的題目很清楚──落實就安基金合規運用，而且要強化審計的最終督導功能。每次我跟你請教，我都會跟您確認一下審計部的功能，因為外界不是很了解。首先我請教一下，審計的職權是不是包括合法性審計、績效性審計及稽查財務違失──包含這三大部分的面向功能？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。那麼在財務審計部分，根據審計法第二條，你們包括監督預算之執行，並且要審核財務收支，對吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在績效審計部分，根據審計法第六十九條，如果機關未盡職責者，你們要報告其上級機關，甚至要報告監察院，對嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不是因為預算的問題，你們發現是制度缺失或設施不良，你們要提出改善建議，對嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果你們發現不是他做得不好，是他沒有做，有些可以增進公益者，你們也可以建議機關要去做，是吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，雖然還沒發生，但是你們看到有潛在風險，你們要提出預警意見，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以審計部的功能很重要，你同意嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。那我們來問一下這個課題，你知道就業安定基金吧？就業安定金的來源及用途，你大概知道嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：加強國民就業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，它大概有將近八成是來自雇主使用國外移工必須繳的費用，其中包含3個作用，第一是要辦理有關促進國民就業的事務，第二要提升勞工福祉，第三是要處理有關外國人的聘僱管理。好，我們來看一下112年度到底用了哪些？你覺得哪個部分用了最多錢？提升勞工福祉5%，外國人的聘僱管理11%，用最多的是不是促進本國國民的就業？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你認為在疫情期間提供本國人的薪資補貼算不算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果像花東大地震災後的災民重返就業，這算不算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那如果以這次勞發署北分署用來裝修分署長辦公室、安裝軌道燈，花了一百四十多萬，這算不算就安基金的合法用途？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這有點勉強。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這不太應該嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不合用途。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不合的話，誰要提出來？誰要告訴這個分署不可以？來，我問一下，機關內部是不是有3種幫忙做內部監督的人員，進行內控內稽？包括主計、包括政風、包括人事，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼這些人員要由中央一條鞭來指派？為什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要獨立。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要獨立、要內部稽核，要稽核這個機關首長有沒有內稽內控，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果以這個北分署來講，把就安基金拿去裝修首長的辦公室，誰應該發現？是不是主計或會計主任要發現說不能核銷？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果他核銷了，那麼這個主計主任是不是失職？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該是失職。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們要把關嘛！失靈了嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外是人事主任，如果機關內部員工經常超時加班、假日來加班，這個人事主任發現有異常，表示首長內部的人事派遣、差勤有問題，要不要提出報告？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果沒有提出來，人事主任有沒有失職？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該失職。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後一個是政風，如果機關內部這麼多問題，政風一定會接到檢舉，如果政風接到檢舉而沒有查辦，政風有沒有失職？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們看，這些都是中央一條鞭指派到各機關，像勞發署的北分署，這是四級機關，他們跟首長的關係是要監督跟輔佐首長，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果被首長摸摸頭了，他們完全失去內部的監督功能，誰來監督這些幕僚機關？你覺得誰還可以監督他？他是來監督首長的，結果自己卻同流合汙，怎麼辦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他要報告他的上級……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他就是被摸頭了、被收買了，他同流合汙啊！來，我們來看一看，審計單位的職能是外部監督政府財政，你們各地的審計室每年都要看包括中央和地方行政機關的審計報告，跟他們調借數據出來，做一些審查，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得審計部跟你們的審計室有沒有可能去發覺機關內部政風、人事、會計出了問題？有沒有可能發覺？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果它在預算支用上有問題。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般在就地抽查以後有可能發覺。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能！那麼如果你們發覺問題，要怎麼做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會移送。像未盡職責，會移送他的相關單位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果是財務上涉有不法或重大違失，你們要移送上級機關，或者交給監察院或司法機關嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這一件勞發署北分署可能有這個問題，你們就會做這樣的行為嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果是預算執行效能不彰，你們提出審核報告，機關回復審核意見之後，首長要負政治責任，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以一個是政治責任，一個是法律跟刑法上會受懲戒的責任，你們是不是有這個能力？","審計報告可以敦促機關首長面對他的政治責任，或者是他要去面對自己因為違法的法律責任跟刑事或公務員受懲處的責任，這是不是你們的責任？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯吧？好，那請問你認為，目前審計部你們年度的審計報告，還有你們首要的審計室，對中央或地方機關有沒有達到這樣的功能？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該我們都有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有統計？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前因為你們的審計報告而發覺出這些不管是預算執行效能不彰，還是因為機關內部涉有不法或重大違失，而要負起法律責任或刑事責任、或移送監察院懲戒的，有沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：每年的數字大概是怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：陳報監察院的這5年有一千多件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一千多件？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：移送涉及刑事案件2,859案，通知各機關查明處分的有2,037人次。剛剛講的增進財務效能的建議和重要審核意見，我們這五年提出了一萬兩千多件了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣的成績，你滿意嗎？你身為審計長，你身為審計單位，你滿意嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會儘量再來加油！"],["鍾委員佳濱：像勞發署北分署這個情況，你們有沒有查出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，你們做出了什麼樣的處置？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：第一個，他有未盡職責的、他有採購異常的，我們就會移送檢調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：監察院呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：未盡職責的，依照我們審計法第六十九條移送監察院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們送了沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：最近這個報告正在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要加快啦，全國都在看。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我接著下一個問題，先問你，先有田才有水──水田、水田，是先有田才有水，還是先有水才有田？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該先有水才有田，因為是農作……"],["鍾委員佳濱：水田、水田，先有水才有田嘛！很好，做過農事、從農村來的。我們看一下，水資源是影響農業產量的重要關鍵因素，我們看到這幾年來，農業部的農田水利建設從127億元，成長到200億，接下來到2025年會有212億，你認為農田水利設施的更新改善，跟圳路復興跨域整合，還有精準化的灌溉措施，以及擴大灌排服務，你覺得哪一項影響農民、哪一項要最優先做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這四項都很重要，但是農田水利設施更新改善，這是影響最大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！我們來看一下，現在農業部說怎麼樣？它說沒有灌溉用水，當然影響到農民耕作，所以他們做到了擴大灌溉服務達到5萬6,000公頃。過去水利會的時代，有分灌區內才處理，灌區外的不處理，現在灌區外的農民只要認為有需要，他可以跟農田水利署申請，農田水利署會幫他做這些農田水利設施，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。請問一下，如果我的農田原來在你們的灌區外，現在你說願意幫我服務，我就提出申請，在你還沒有幫我做之前，請問我農地上沒有辦法好好的發揮農業效應，農業部怎麼辦、農民怎麼辦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般農民就會休耕。"],["鍾委員佳濱：休耕，好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：或者是鑿井灌溉。"],["鍾委員佳濱：鑿井灌溉，不管怎麼樣，前者休耕，他沒有收入；鑿井灌溉，他自己要多花錢。我就問這個題目，如果灌溉設施未完善，主管機關要不要制訂補償措施？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前國土計畫法，我們的農業發展區有第一類、第二類，還有其他類，但是我被劃為農業發展區之後，就限制我做其他的使用，但是如果政府的灌溉措施、設施還沒有進來，我沒辦法做我的農田發展，你覺得政府有沒有義務補償？你限定了人民的使用，你又沒有提供他足夠的配屬設施，政府要不要補償？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有向農業部提出這樣的建議……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是跟我說的一樣，認同優先改善農業發展預定區的農田水路設施，如果還沒有做，我們就要補償，你同意嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，現在根據土地稅法，在非都的地區編定了農業用地，它是徵收田賦，但是都市土地如果它的公共設施未完竣前，如果仍做農地使用的，不收地價稅，是不是？這也是一種補償嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是工業用地、我可以蓋工廠，但是你沒有開闢道路，我不能做工廠，我自己去做農業用地，你不能跟我收工業用地的地價稅嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我們農地不收農賦，那麼是不是我們可以要求農業部新增科目預算？過去經濟部如果久旱不雨，它會調度農業用水，經濟部會給農民休耕補償，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不是因為天氣久旱不雨，是因為農業部的灌溉設施未達，我農地沒辦法灌溉、沒辦法做好的友善耕作，你認不認為農業部或你們支持要編列預算科目的用途來補償農民？你支不支持？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該由農業部好好來檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！所以你要監督農業部新增預算科目，提出相對應的補償。所以我們看最後，有水才有田，灌溉設施是農權，如果我們政府應提供而未提供農業設施的話，政府要提出補償措施，這個不是施捨，能不能督導我們行政部門要具體的趕快提出改善方案？可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們再往下看，我先問你，如果你是老師，全班的總平均是95分，只有一個是考不到70分的，其他都98分。今天你跟校長說，我還要把全班的平均分數從90分往上拉高，你是要幫助那些98分以上的考100分，還是先把70分的拉起來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：把70分的拉起來的空間比較大……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最有效益嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來往下看。同樣地，我們來看臺灣的自來水普及，我們卓院長說，我們的自來水普及率是95%，已經都有了，剩下的5%沒有，所以你認為未來自來水的普及要從這5%去擴大，要找哪一個地方？是找普及率高的還是普及率低的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：找普及率低的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。我們來看一下，目前我們的自來水全國只有屏東未達八成，我們全國的普及率是95%，過去這幾年屏東成功地在短短3年內，因為前瞻基礎建設的支持，我們從63%提升到72%，增加了6%、5%。請問你，你認為接下來自來水的延管工程是要去針對普及率已達95%但人口少且偏遠的、每單位管線所需較長的？還是要找像屏東這種普及率低，且還有很多人口稠密的地方，它每單位管線所需較短的地方優先去做？哪一個成本比較低？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該是普及率低的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：像屏東這樣的地方嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你完全認同嘛！好，我們來往下看。各縣市延管工程的平均成本，就像你說的沒有錯，普及率愈高的，它要繼續施工的成本比較高；普及率低的，像屏東，只要不到16萬就可以做到一戶了，所以全國目前有超過51%的經費是用在屏東，其他各縣市用得比較少，你認不認為這樣的分配是合理的？你認為屏東用比較多合不合理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：合理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很合理！未來如果我們相關計畫的經費運用是不是要繼續加碼投資屏東縣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是應該往這方面來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後是我的結論，相較於其他縣市，站在審計部你們績效審計的立場，提高全屏東縣自來水的普及率，對於全國自來水普及的最後一哩路是不是最有幫助？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們審計部的審計報告未來在看這樣相關的水利或自來水普及工程，你們會提出這樣的建議給行政院嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：向委員報告，我們今年或者114年的上半年在做無自來水地區的專案審計、專案調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會把委員的這些看法、觀點納入考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這不是我的觀點，你完全認同，就是審計部的意見啦！因為這些都是合規、合理的嘛！站在你們的職責，你們就應該建議嘛，而不是因為鍾委員建議嘛！你們要本於職責這樣建議，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"]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t":"好,我們出三個,三個,三個請票員"},{"start":1507.406,"end":1533.387,"text":"是否有當．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行"},{"start":1550.34,"end":1551.521,"text":"是否有當．二、同意權之行使事項．二、同意權之行使"},{"start":1793.837,"end":1799.185,"text":"報言會現在我們繼續開會進行同意權之行使事項請宣讀全委會審查報告"},{"start":1801.896,"end":1826.446,"text":"總統咨則依據《憲法增修條文》第6條第二項規定提名周鴻憲為考試院第十四屆院長徐書強為考試院第十四屆副院長邱偉燕、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗玲、黃東毅、伊萬娜威七位為考試院第十四屆考試委員自行同意案本案經提報北院第11屆第一會期第17次會議決定將取原位委員會選查"},{"start":1831.363,"end":1850.189,"text":"本院全院委員會於11月22日下午舉行公定會由院長韓國瑜、副院長張啟臣分別擔任主席各黨團推薦之學者、專家應邀出席藉由紀俊成教授等發表意見再由本院各黨團推派組成之審查小組詢問"},{"start":1851.673,"end":1862.137,"text":"既有吳春成委員等口頭詢問．並有與會學者參加綜合答覆．以上公定會發言紀錄．經會應成冊．含送本院權力委員審查時參考。"},{"start":1864.505,"end":1883.662,"text":"全院委員會．審查會．於11月26日．上午審查．考試院院長．被提名人周鴻憲．由副院長江啟臣擔任主席．藉由沈薄洋委員等．口頭詢問．均由被提名人．口頭答覆。11月26日．下午審查．考試院副院長．被提名人許書祥．"},{"start":1884.443,"end":1900.306,"text":"由副院長江啟臣擔任主席．藉由楊瓊英委員等．口頭詢問．均由被提名人．口頭答覆．11月29日．下午分別審查．考試委員．被提名人．邱維彥．家機．由副院長江啟臣擔任主席．"},{"start":1901.482,"end":1922.183,"text":"針對被提名人邱偉諺均審查．藉由蘇清泉委員等．口頭詢問．均由被提名人口頭答覆．針對被提名人鄧家基之審查．藉由楊秋英委員等．口頭詢問．均由被提名人口頭答覆．12月3日．分別審查可是委員．被提名人．王秀紅、呂秋慧、戈麗玲．"},{"start":1922.924,"end":1948.485,"text":"由院長韓國瑜擔任主席﹐針對被提名人王秀紅之審查﹐即由盧志強委員等﹐口頭詢問﹐均由被提名人﹐口頭答覆﹐針對被提名人呂秋慧之審查﹐即由林益君委員等﹐口頭詢問﹐均由被提名人﹐口頭答覆﹐針對被提名人柯麗玲之審查﹐即由林月琴委員等﹐口頭詢問﹐均由被提名人﹐口頭答覆。"},{"start":1950.173,"end":1973.337,"text":"12月6日﹐項目分別審查考試委員﹐被提名人黃東毅﹐伊萬納威﹐由副院長江啟臣擔任主席﹐針對被提名人黃東毅之審查﹐藉由楊瓊英委員等口頭詢問﹐均有被提名人口頭答覆﹐針對被提名人伊萬納威之審查﹐藉由楊瓊英委員等口頭詢問﹐均有被提名人口頭答覆﹐"},{"start":1973.897,"end":1991.759,"text":"全院委員會於12月6日審查文據原決議提報院會以記名投票表決宣讀完畢報院會現在針對考試院院長、副院長及考試委員被提名人同意權之行使進行記名投票表決依黨團協商結論"},{"start":1993.274,"end":2016.201,"text":"由各黨團推派一位．擔任投開票監察員．有關同意權之相關事務工作．均循例辦理．設置圈票處4個．票軌2個．報院會在投票表決之前．做以下兩點重要宣告一、投開票的監察員．由國民黨團推派翁曉琳委員．擔任"},{"start":2017.401,"end":2026.655,"text":"民進黨團推派李昆成委員擔任臺灣民眾黨團推派麥玉珍委員擔任二、投票截止時間為上午11點"},{"start":2029.059,"end":2047.037,"text":"再說一遍．投票截止時間為上午11點．如全體委員在上午11點之前已投票完畢．我們則提前開票．現在．請工作人員布置投票所．並請投開票監察員執行監察職務．"},{"start":2306.008,"end":2326.174,"text":"報告院會,我們依協商結論﹐考試院長、副院長及七位考試委員﹐被提名人,並為一張同意票。另外,為了方便在領票及投票領票的時候,請各位委員分區領票。編號第一號到60號的委員,請至南區領票。編號61號到113號委員,請至北區領票。"},{"start":2335.353,"end":2345.517,"text":"投票的時候兩側發言台各設有一個票軌均可以投入現在請各位委員開始分區領票及投票"},{"start":6020.929,"end":6025.308,"text":"跟院會報告今天我們立法委員陳超明生日陳超明委員今天現場我們掌聲給他"},{"start":8801.192,"end":8808.012,"text":"報告院會,距離投票截止時間上午11點還有3分鐘,尚未投票的委員請趕快投票。"},{"start":8984.141,"end":8998.52,"text":"抱怨會投票截止時間已到請按鈴現在請工作人員佈置開票所"},{"start":9019.622,"end":9035.76,"text":"報告院會向院會報告本日程序委員會輪值召集委員、審發會委員表示今日程序委員會開會時間延後至中午院會休息10分鐘後於紅樓201會議室召開"},{"start":9114.879,"end":9130.644,"text":"現在報告發票報告書立法院行使考試院院長、副院長及考試委員同意權投票表決發票報告書領票委員112人為領票委員1人合計113人中華民國113年12月17日投開票監察員麥玉珍、翁曉琳、李坤誠"},{"start":9150.363,"end":9157.822,"text":"報院會現在開始開票請開起票軌並整理同意權票"},{"start":9730.953,"end":9737.715,"text":"好了嗎?報告院會現在依序進行唱票請唱票"},{"start":9762.298,"end":9784.131,"text":"丁學忠同意權票 周鴻憲不同意丁學忠同意權票 周鴻憲不同意許書祥同意許書祥同意邱文彥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意王秀紅同意"},{"start":9784.851,"end":9801.784,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意劉許廷﹑同意權票"},{"start":9803.072,"end":9830.923,"text":"周鴻憲﹑不同意牛許廷﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書翔﹑同意許書翔﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑不同意柯麗麟﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":9833.044,"end":9842.671,"text":"伊萬納威﹑同意王世堅﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":9862.185,"end":9875.132,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意王振旭﹑同意選票"},{"start":9877.087,"end":9903.744,"text":"鍾鴻憲﹑同意王振旭﹑同意權票鍾鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":9904.304,"end":9930.535,"text":"一萬納威﹑同意一萬納威﹑同意王玉敏﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意王玉敏﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意"},{"start":9931.135,"end":9944.865,"text":"李秋慧﹑同意李秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":9945.936,"end":9954.647,"text":"王定宇 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意 許淑祥 同意 邱文彥 同意 鄧家基 同意"},{"start":9963.658,"end":9982.797,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意王美惠﹑同意選票"},{"start":9983.72,"end":9998.295,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意王美惠﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":9998.915,"end":10018.12,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意王逸川﹑同意全票"},{"start":10019.048,"end":10034.67,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意王一川﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意"},{"start":10035.271,"end":10042.896,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":10050.834,"end":10058.396,"text":"王鴻維﹑同意權票 周鴻憲﹑不同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":10069.139,"end":10088.312,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伍麗華﹑同意全票"},{"start":10089.096,"end":10109.39,"text":"周鴻憲ﷺ同意ﷺ吳立華ﷺ同意權票ﷺ周鴻憲ﷺ同意ﷺ許淑祥ﷺ同意ﷺ許淑祥ﷺ同意ﷺ邱文彥ﷺ同意ﷺ邱文彥ﷺ同意ﷺ鄧家基ﷺ同意ﷺ鄧家基ﷺ同意ﷺ王秀宏ﷺ同意ﷺ王秀宏ﷺ同意ﷺ呂秋慧ﷺ同意ﷺ呂秋慧ﷺ同意ﷺ"},{"start":10109.97,"end":10116.421,"text":"柯麗琳﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意江啟臣﹑同意全票"},{"start":10122.987,"end":10151.198,"text":"周鴻憲﹑不同意江啟臣﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑不同意許書翔﹑同意許書翔﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑不同意柯麗麟﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":10151.678,"end":10175.86,"text":"一萬納威﹑同意一萬納威﹑同意何新淳﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意何新淳﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意許書翔﹑同意許書翔﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意"},{"start":10176.6,"end":10182.244,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":10190.652,"end":10202.143,"text":"吳佩義同意權票 周鴻憲同意 許淑祥同意 邱文彥同意鄧家基同意 王秀紅同意 呂秋慧同意"},{"start":10212.293,"end":10218.118,"text":"李秋蕙﹑同意柯麗琳﹑同意黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":10224.745,"end":10232.19,"text":"吳宗憲 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許書祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意"},{"start":10242.597,"end":10263.116,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意吳秉瑞﹑同意全票周鴻燮﹑同意"},{"start":10264.461,"end":10290.103,"text":"吳秉瑞 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許淑祥 同意許淑祥 同意邱文彥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意柯麗玲 同意黃東益 同意黃東益 同意伊萬納威 同意伊萬納威 同意"},{"start":10292.888,"end":10296.055,"text":"吳思瑤﹑同意權票﹑周鴻燮﹑同意"},{"start":10299.577,"end":10325.721,"text":"許淑祥﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑同意柯麗麟﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意吳春成﹑同意全票"},{"start":10326.587,"end":10352.628,"text":"周鴻憲 同意吳春城 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許書翔 同意許書翔 同意邱文彥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 不同意柯麗玲 不同意黃東益 同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":10354.75,"end":10358.479,"text":"伊萬納威不同意伊萬納威不同意"},{"start":10360.314,"end":10372.317,"text":"吳祁銘同意權票．周鴻憲同意．許淑祥同意．邱文彥同意．鄧家基同意．王秀紅同意．呂秋慧同意．柯麗玲同意．黃東毅同意．"},{"start":10388.321,"end":10389.549,"text":"伊瓦納維（同意"},{"start":10392.66,"end":10407.346,"text":"呂玉琳﹑同意權票 周鴻憲﹑不同意許書翔﹑同意邱文晏﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗琳﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":10422.333,"end":10434.264,"text":"伊萬納威﹑同意李坤澄﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":10442.771,"end":10449.899,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意李秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":10458.513,"end":10487.999,"text":"李坤澤 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意李坤澤 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許淑祥 同意許淑祥 同意邱文燕 同意邱文燕 同意鄧家基 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意柯麗玲 同意黃東益 同意黃東益 同意伊萬娜薇 同意"},{"start":10488.539,"end":10517.31,"text":"伊萬奈威﹑同意李彥秀﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意李彥秀﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀宏﹑同意王秀宏﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑不同意柯麗麟﹑不同意"},{"start":10518.05,"end":10518.912,"text":"黃東義﹑同意李博義﹑同意權票"},{"start":10527.614,"end":10555.335,"text":"周鴻燮﹑同意李柏毅﹑同意選票周鴻燮﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文燁﹑同意邱文燁﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑同意柯麗麟﹑同意黃東毅﹑同意黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":10556.215,"end":10557.866,"text":"沈柏洋﹑同意全票"},{"start":10558.584,"end":10586.414,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意沈伯陽﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜威﹑同意伊萬威﹑同意"},{"start":10588.498,"end":10617.08,"text":"選發會 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意選發會 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許書祥 同意許書祥 同意邱文彥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗麟 同意柯麗麟 同意黃東益 同意黃東益 同意伊萬那維 同意"},{"start":10617.62,"end":10638.32,"text":"伊萬娜威ﷺ同意ﷺ林月琴ﷺ同意權票ﷺ周鴻憲ﷺ同意ﷺ林月琴ﷺ同意權票ﷺ周鴻憲ﷺ同意ﷺ許書翔ﷺ同意ﷺ許書翔ﷺ同意ﷺ邱文彥ﷺ同意ﷺ邱文彥ﷺ同意ﷺ鄧家基ﷺ同意ﷺ鄧家基ﷺ同意ﷺ王秀宏ﷺ同意ﷺ王秀宏ﷺ同意ﷺ"},{"start":10639.08,"end":10644.485,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意克麗琳﹑同意黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":10651.994,"end":10660.804,"text":"林佩祥同意權票．周鴻憲不同意．許淑祥同意．邱文彥同意．鄧家基同意．王秀紅同意．"},{"start":10672.357,"end":10678.247,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東毅﹑同意伊萬娜威﹑同意"},{"start":10686.035,"end":10695.538,"text":"凌怡瑾同意權票．周鴻憲同意．許淑祥同意．邱文彥同意．鄧家基同意．王秀紅同意．呂修慧同意．"},{"start":10708.542,"end":10714.813,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東毅﹑同意伊萬娜威﹑同意林黛樺﹑同意選票"},{"start":10722.341,"end":10747.215,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意林旦化﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意許初祥﹑同意許初祥﹑同意邱文燕﹑同意邱文燕﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":10749.116,"end":10757.84,"text":"伊萬奈威﹑同意林俊憲﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋蕙﹑同意"},{"start":10776.167,"end":10785.876,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意林思敏﹑同意權票 周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意"},{"start":10800.683,"end":10811.214,"text":"邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意"},{"start":10824.417,"end":10837.067,"text":"林倩琦 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許書翔 同意邱文燕 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 不同意"},{"start":10853.019,"end":10877.831,"text":"黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意林國成﹑同意選票周鴻憲﹑同意林國成﹑同意選票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意"},{"start":10878.376,"end":10904.631,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑不同意伊萬娜薇﹑不同意林淑芬﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意林淑芬﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意"},{"start":10905.205,"end":10914.973,"text":"邱文燕﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意"},{"start":10927.028,"end":10939.356,"text":"林楚英 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意徐淑祥 同意邱文燕 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意"},{"start":10952.277,"end":10968.974,"text":"黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意林德福﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑不同意林德福﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意"},{"start":10969.665,"end":10997.187,"text":"許淑祥﹑同意丘文彥﹑同意丘文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東義﹑同意黃東義﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意林益君﹑同意選票周鴻憲﹑同意"},{"start":10998.362,"end":11027.765,"text":"李懿君同意權票 周鴻憲同意許淑祥同意許淑祥同意邱文彥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意呂秋慧同意柯麗玲不同意柯麗玲不同意黃東益同意黃東益同意伊萬娜薇不同意伊萬娜薇不同意"},{"start":11029.011,"end":11043.26,"text":"邱志偉 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許淑祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":11056.974,"end":11064.679,"text":"伊萬納威﹑同意 伊萬納威﹑同意邱振興﹑同意全票 周鴻燮﹑不同意"},{"start":11088.374,"end":11091.095,"text":"你要不要從這一張從頭唸?你剛剛唸車車機中,現在怎麼唸?"},{"start":11124.634,"end":11146.09,"text":"邱政軍同意權票 周鴻憲不同意許書祥同意 許書祥同意邱文彥同意 邱文彥同意鄧家基同意 鄧家基同意王秀紅同意 王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意 呂秋慧同意"},{"start":11146.752,"end":11159.435,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意邱奕瑩﹑同意全票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意"},{"start":11173.403,"end":11194.998,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意柯志恩﹑同意權票"},{"start":11196.01,"end":11202.87,"text":"周鴻憲﹑不同意克之恩﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑不同意許初祥﹑同意"},{"start":11203.45,"end":11230.103,"text":"許淑祥﹑同意丘文彥﹑同意丘文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃冬毅﹑同意黃冬毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意柯建銘﹑同意權票"},{"start":11231.044,"end":11248.252,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意柯建銘﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意"},{"start":11249.02,"end":11259.245,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意洪孟凱﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意"},{"start":11276.4,"end":11295.223,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":11296.38,"end":11307.644,"text":"范雲 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許淑祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意"},{"start":11322.499,"end":11349.134,"text":"黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意許巧欣﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許巧欣﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意"},{"start":11349.833,"end":11360.562,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意徐欣盈﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑不同意許書翔﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意"},{"start":11378.607,"end":11400.871,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意徐富奎﹑同意權票"},{"start":11401.673,"end":11422.069,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意許富奎﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":11422.625,"end":11429.79,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意圖權吉﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意"},{"start":11447.293,"end":11464.526,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":11467.386,"end":11479.751,"text":"翁曉琳 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許淑祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 不同意"},{"start":11494.904,"end":11522.265,"text":"黃東義﹑同意黃東義﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意馬文軍﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意馬文軍﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意"},{"start":11522.885,"end":11533.748,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意高金素梅﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意"},{"start":11551.952,"end":11570.243,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":11571.668,"end":11591.153,"text":"張宏祿 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意張宏祿 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許書祥 同意許書祥 同意邱文彥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意王秀紅 同意"},{"start":11591.81,"end":11603.354,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意克麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意張祺凱﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":11620.74,"end":11639.23,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑不同意伊萬納威﹑不同意"},{"start":11640.63,"end":11654.887,"text":"張志倫同意權票 周鴻憲不同意張志倫同意權票 周鴻憲不同意許書祥同意許書祥同意邱文彥同意邱文彥同意"},{"start":11655.621,"end":11674.807,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":11676.21,"end":11700.03,"text":"張雅玲同意權票 周鴻憲同意張雅玲同意權票 周鴻憲同意許書祥同意許書祥同意邱文彥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意呂秋慧同意"},{"start":11700.558,"end":11709.741,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜威﹑同意張家俊﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意"},{"start":11725.607,"end":11744.789,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":11746.159,"end":11756.749,"text":"莊瑞雄 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許淑祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意"},{"start":11768.804,"end":11795.727,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意許宇珍﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑不同意許宇珍﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意"},{"start":11796.42,"end":11821.152,"text":"鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意許季潔﹑同意權票"},{"start":11822.935,"end":11847.211,"text":"周鴻憲 同意許智傑 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許書翔 同意許書翔 同意邱文彥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意柯麗玲 同意"},{"start":11848.6,"end":11865.391,"text":"黃東義﹑同意黃東義﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意郭鈺晴﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意郭鈺晴﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意"},{"start":11866.267,"end":11893.331,"text":"許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意郭國文﹑同意全票"},{"start":11894.286,"end":11908.972,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意郭國文﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":11909.412,"end":11938.629,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意陳永康﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意陳永康﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意"},{"start":11939.696,"end":11951.1,"text":"丘文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意"},{"start":11964.412,"end":11974.822,"text":"陳玉珍 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許淑祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意"},{"start":11988.254,"end":11994.144,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃冬奕﹑同意伊萬娜威﹑同意陳秀寶﹑同意權票"},{"start":12001.42,"end":12022.029,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意陳秀寶﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":12022.469,"end":12028.191,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意陳亭飛﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意"},{"start":12040.76,"end":12069.435,"text":"許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意陳峻宇﹑同意全票"},{"start":12070.293,"end":12082.961,"text":"周鴻憲 同意陳俊宇 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許書翔 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":12097.87,"end":12110.014,"text":"伊萬納威﹑同意陳冠廷﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":12125.319,"end":12127.842,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12136.17,"end":12158.992,"text":"陳昭之 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意陳昭之 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許書祥 同意許書祥 同意邱文彥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意呂秋慧 同意"},{"start":12159.432,"end":12168.057,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑不同意陳素月﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":12189.128,"end":12204.6,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意"},{"start":12206.051,"end":12219.162,"text":"陳培宇同意權票 周鴻憲同意許書翔同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意柯麗玲同意黃東益同意"},{"start":12234.153,"end":12249.7,"text":"黃東義﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意陳雪生﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":12261.705,"end":12270.251,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜威﹑同意陳金輝﹑同意全票"},{"start":12277.887,"end":12305.598,"text":"周鴻憲﹑不同意陳金輝﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書翔﹑同意許書翔﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":12306.078,"end":12315.283,"text":"伊萬納威﹑同意陳盈﹑同意選票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":12333.871,"end":12337.995,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意麥玉珍﹑同意選票"},{"start":12346.744,"end":12367.08,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意麥玉珍﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":12367.608,"end":12370.75,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑不同意"},{"start":12379.286,"end":12391.396,"text":"副坤祺 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許淑祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意"},{"start":12402.805,"end":12407.409,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12413.226,"end":12423.531,"text":"游皓同意權票 周鴻憲不同意許淑祥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意"},{"start":12436.428,"end":12441.076,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12446.853,"end":12468.778,"text":"黃秀芳同意權票 周鴻憲同意黃秀芳同意權票 周鴻憲同意許書祥同意許書祥同意邱文彥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意呂秋慧同意"},{"start":12469.258,"end":12473.447,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12479.927,"end":12490.09,"text":"黃建斌同意權票 周鴻憲不同意許書祥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意"},{"start":12502.774,"end":12505.539,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12513.677,"end":12522.021,"text":"黃國昌 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許書祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意"},{"start":12536.627,"end":12539.75,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑不同意"},{"start":12548.79,"end":12569.617,"text":"黃婕同意權票 周鴻憲同意黃婕同意權票 周鴻憲同意許書祥同意許書祥同意邱文彥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意呂秋慧同意"},{"start":12570.077,"end":12574.086,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12580.539,"end":12607.112,"text":"楊耀同意權票 周鴻憲同意楊耀同意權票 周鴻憲同意徐淑祥同意 徐淑祥同意邱文彥同意 邱文彥同意鄧家基同意 鄧家基同意王秀紅同意 王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意 呂秋慧同意柯麗玲同意 柯麗玲同意黃東益同意 黃東益同意"},{"start":12609.013,"end":12617.4,"text":"伊萬納威﹑同意楊瓊英﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":12630.911,"end":12647.294,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12649.685,"end":12659.855,"text":"萬美玲同意權票 周鴻憲不同意許淑祥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意"},{"start":12673.027,"end":12677.815,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12684.139,"end":12694.302,"text":"葉元芝﹑同意權票 周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":12705.767,"end":12711.739,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12718.035,"end":12727.138,"text":"葛如君同意權票 周鴻憲不同意許淑祥同意 邱文彥同意鄧家基同意 王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意"},{"start":12741.303,"end":12753.688,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意廖先祥﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":12769.395,"end":12784.495,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意伊萬娜薇﹑同意"},{"start":12785.629,"end":12799.014,"text":"廖偉翔 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許書翔 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 不同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":12815.481,"end":12840.569,"text":"一萬納威﹑同意一萬納威﹑同意劉建國﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意劉建國﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀宏﹑同意王秀宏﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":12841.638,"end":12845.587,"text":"柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12851.144,"end":12864.069,"text":"蔡奇昌 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許淑祥 同意邱文晏 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意"},{"start":12877.797,"end":12881.226,"text":"黃東義﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":12884.338,"end":12897.047,"text":"蔡易瑜 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許淑祥 同意邱文晏 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":12914.52,"end":12915.671,"text":"伊萬奈威 同意"},{"start":12916.978,"end":12946.318,"text":"鄭天才 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意鄭天才 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許書翔 同意許書翔 同意邱文燕 同意邱文燕 同意鄧家基 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗麟 不同意柯麗麟 不同意黃東益 同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":12946.818,"end":12957.635,"text":"一萬納威．同意一萬納威．同意鄭正前．同意權票．周鴻憲．不同意鄭正前．同意權票．周鴻憲．不同意"},{"start":12958.508,"end":12982.468,"text":"許書祥ﷺ同意ﷺ許書祥ﷺ同意ﷺ邱文彥ﷺ同意ﷺ邱文彥ﷺ同意ﷺ鄧家基ﷺ同意ﷺ鄧家基ﷺ同意ﷺ王秀宏ﷺ同意ﷺ王秀宏ﷺ同意ﷺ呂秋慧ﷺ同意ﷺ呂秋慧ﷺ同意ﷺ柯麗麟ﷺ不同意ﷺ柯麗麟不同意ﷺ黃東毅ﷺ同意ﷺ黃東毅ﷺ同意ﷺ伊萬納威ﷺ同意ﷺ伊萬納威ﷺ同意ﷺ"},{"start":12983.696,"end":13012.174,"text":"魯明哲﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意魯明哲﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑不同意柯麗麟﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":13012.634,"end":13021.842,"text":"伊萬納威﹑同意盧憲英﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":13039.096,"end":13043.484,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":13050.257,"end":13076.895,"text":"賴仕寶﹑同意權票 周鴻憲﹑不同意賴仕寶﹑同意權票 周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑不同意柯麗麟﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":13078.556,"end":13084.587,"text":"伊瓦納威﹑同意賴慧媛﹑同意全票"},{"start":13085.327,"end":13098.43,"text":"周鴻憲 同意賴慧媛 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意徐淑祥 同意邱文晏 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意黃東益 同意伊萬娜薇 同意"},{"start":13115.628,"end":13141.366,"text":"賴銳榮﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意賴銳榮﹑同意權票﹑周鴻憲﹑同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑同意柯麗麟﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":13141.826,"end":13143.092,"text":"伊瓦納維 同意"},{"start":13146.398,"end":13160.186,"text":"謝宜奉同意選票．周鴻憲不同意．許淑祥同意．邱文彥同意．鄧家基同意．王秀紅同意．呂秋慧同意．柯麗玲不同意．黃東益同意．伊萬拿維同意．"},{"start":13175.855,"end":13176.944,"text":"伊萬娜威 同意"},{"start":13178.515,"end":13191.105,"text":"謝龍介 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許書翔 同意邱文晏 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 不同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":13207.017,"end":13208.322,"text":"伊瓦納維﹑同意"},{"start":13211.059,"end":13237.297,"text":"鍾嘉斌﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意鍾嘉斌﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀宏﹑同意王秀宏﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑同意柯麗麟﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":13239.259,"end":13240.445,"text":"一萬二位（同意"},{"start":13245.577,"end":13258.586,"text":"韓國瑜 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許書翔 同意邱文晏 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗麟 不同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":13274.557,"end":13275.826,"text":"伊萬納威 同意"},{"start":13279.631,"end":13306.092,"text":"嚴寬恆﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意嚴寬恆﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書翔﹑同意許書翔﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗麟﹑不同意柯麗麟﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意"},{"start":13307.833,"end":13333.806,"text":"一萬納威﹑同意一萬納威﹑同意羅廷偉﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意羅廷偉﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑不同意許書祥﹑同意許書祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意"},{"start":13334.426,"end":13337.252,"text":"柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":13344.805,"end":13357.748,"text":"羅明才 同意選票 周鴻憲 不同意許書翔 同意邱文晏 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 不同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":13374.232,"end":13380.921,"text":"一萬二位（同意一萬二位（同意羅美玲（同意全票"},{"start":13382.509,"end":13410.909,"text":"周鴻憲﹑同意羅美玲﹑同意權票周鴻憲﹑同意許書翔﹑同意許書翔﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意柯麗玲﹑同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":13412.408,"end":13420.853,"text":"羅志強 同意選票 周鴻憲 不同意許書祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意"},{"start":13432.24,"end":13437.964,"text":"呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東毅﹑同意伊瓦納威﹑同意"},{"start":13445.667,"end":13459.892,"text":"蘇巧慧 同意權票 周鴻憲 同意許淑祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意柯麗玲 同意黃東益 同意"},{"start":13473.857,"end":13485.203,"text":"伊萬納威﹑同意蘇清泉﹑同意選票周鴻憲﹑不同意許淑祥﹑同意邱文彥﹑同意鄧家基﹑同意"},{"start":13495.228,"end":13511.682,"text":"王秀紅﹑同意王秀紅﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意呂秋慧﹑同意柯麗玲﹑不同意柯麗玲﹑不同意黃東益﹑同意黃東益﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":13642.239,"end":13652.585,"text":"邱若驊同意選票 周鴻憲不同意許書翔同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意呂秋蕙不同意"},{"start":13668.394,"end":13672.779,"text":"柯麗玲﹑無效票黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":13680.914,"end":13691.804,"text":"陳超明 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許書祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意"},{"start":13706.721,"end":13709.843,"text":"柯麗玲﹑無效票黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":13718.446,"end":13728.573,"text":"黃仁 同意權票 周鴻憲 不同意許書祥 同意邱文彥 同意鄧家基 同意王秀紅 同意呂秋慧 同意"},{"start":13742.762,"end":13745.746,"text":"柯麗玲﹑無效票黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑同意"},{"start":13754.791,"end":13780.454,"text":"黃珊珊同意選票周鴻憲同意黃珊珊同意選票周鴻憲同意許初祥同意許初祥同意邱文彥同意邱文彥同意鄧家基同意鄧家基同意王秀紅同意王秀紅同意呂秋慧同意呂秋慧同意柯麗玲無效票"},{"start":13781.095,"end":13785.541,"text":"柯麗玲﹑無效票黃東毅﹑同意伊萬納威﹑不同意"},{"start":14722.383,"end":14741.57,"text":"報告委員會我們現在報告投票表決結果立法院行使考試院長、副院長及考試委員同意權投票表決結果朱鴻憲同意票59票不同意票53票無效票0票"},{"start":14742.865,"end":14751.837,"text":"許書祥同意票112票不同意票0票無效票0票邱文彥同意票112票"},{"start":14754.312,"end":14781.421,"text":"不同意票0票．無效票0票鄧家基同意票112張．不同意0張．無效票0張王秀紅同意票112張．不同意票0張．無效票0張呂秋慧同意票111張．不同意票1張．無效票0張"},{"start":14783.595,"end":14809.515,"text":"柯麗玲同意票51張不同意票57張無效票4張黃東毅同意票112張不同意票0張無效票0張伊萬娜薇同意票104票不同意票8票無效票0張"},{"start":14812.219,"end":14826.025,"text":"現在我們做以下決議一、周鴻憲獲得超過全體立法委員二分之一同意票依法同意為考試院第14屆院長二、"},{"start":14829.538,"end":14851.424,"text":"許書祥獲得超過全體立法委員二分之一同意票．依法同意為考試院第14屆副院長．三、邱文彥、鄧家基．王秀紅、呂秋慧．黃東毅、伊萬娜薇等6位．"},{"start":14852.386,"end":14860.572,"text":"均獲得超過立法委員二分之一同意票。依法同意為考試院第14屆考試委員。4、柯麗玲"},{"start":14865.871,"end":14890.122,"text":"未獲得超過全體立法委員．二分之一同意票．依法不同意．為考試院第14屆考試委員．中華民國113年12月17日．投開票監察員．翁曉琳委員．李坤城委員．麥玉珍委員．"},{"start":14893.987,"end":14920.355,"text":"有關各黨團．對考試院被提名人所提書面問題．及被提名人書面答覆之相關資料．我們補列入公報紀錄。上午會議進行到此為止．下午2點30分．我們繼續開會．進行112年度．中央政府總決算審核報告案．之報告及諮詢．現在休息。謝謝三位監察委員。"},{"start":14926.461,"end":14930.507,"text":"謝謝謝榮介委員謝謝大家謝謝所有工作夥伴謝謝"},{"start":17237.444,"end":17237.525,"text":"是否有當？請公決"},{"start":17308.997,"end":17309.079,"text":"是否有當？請公決"},{"start":21594.568,"end":21595.209,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生答應審議綜合"},{"start":21624.841,"end":21644.042,"text":"中華民國112年度中央政府總結算．總結算副屬單位結算．及重計表營業部分．非營業部分．等審核報告．今天應要列行報告審核情形．自感榮幸．僅二要報告如次．一、總結算部分．112年度稅務結算．"},{"start":21647.661,"end":21673.624,"text":"損定為兩兆九千零七十三億元．稅出結算．損定為兩兆六千兩百七十七億元．稅日稅出相抵．剩餘兩千七百九十六億元．債務之償還結算．一千兩百六十億元．經兆數損定．收支剩餘計一千五百三十六億元．"},{"start":21675.25,"end":21694.452,"text":"一百一十二年度國營事業結算．準定總收入三兆五千億元．總支出三兆四千億元．淨利為五百九十八億元．繳庫股息紅利．準定為兩千零五十二億元．"},{"start":21695.916,"end":21712.601,"text":"一百一十二年度徽營業特種基金結算．損定收入三兆六千七百七十億元．總支出三兆五千六百九十四億元．剩餘為一千零八十三億元．損遞結繳工庫兩百億元．二、稅入稅出以"},{"start":21718.655,"end":21732.379,"text":"收支之平衡．政府助推動財政健全方案以來．財政收支結構．逐步改善．截至113年10月抵止．一年以上．債務未償已有．實際市為5兆8780億以延．三、審核綜合成果．"},{"start":21739.659,"end":21768.695,"text":"各措審核報告．共計提出619項．重要審核意見．其中．屬住住．規章缺失或設施不良．而提出建議意見．129項．四、重要審核意見．本部就政府重要施政計畫．及攸關民生之重要議題．等施以查核．並研提重要審核意見．之災藥報告如次．一．"},{"start":21769.71,"end":21796.33,"text":"政府未建立國家氣候變遷條數推動機制．合定國家氣候變遷條數行動方案．辦理125項的條數行動計畫．為部分計畫未進行脆弱度減量評估．後未切實辦理氣候變遷風險評估作業．又尚未完成氣候變遷風險評估．準則等相關主法的訂定．二"},{"start":21800.47,"end":21823.876,"text":"這行政院自100年通過改善所得分配具體方案．對於減緩所得分配．不經既有注意．為107年至111年我國所得分配．不經程度及所得差異倍數．容維護擴大．租稅改善所得分配效果有限．又青年除夕低薪．社會住宅及資金補貼．"},{"start":21826.439,"end":21854.389,"text":"解決弱勢機制問題．經濟弱勢學生輔助之成效．容待提升．三、政府為強化食品衛生安全．於105年間提出食安五環政策．由農業部、衛生福利部．等五個主管機關共同執行．截至112年抵制．以納管65萬家食品業者．公告33例業者實施食品．"},{"start":21855.069,"end":21877.03,"text":"安全監測計畫．為對於邊境檢驗措施．檢出不合格產品．為即時因應調整查驗強度．施股殘留農藥含量超標．諸違規案件逐年攀升．化學營尚無法跨部會進行．化學物主流向之勾擊比對作業。是"},{"start":21880.188,"end":21893.59,"text":"政府為打擊詐欺定班．新世代打擊詐欺行動干營1.5版．112年度投入經費8億元．以計相當執行成果．為詐騙手法層出不窮．112年度詐欺案件．擁有3萬一件．財損金額88億元．由於投資詐欺最為嚴重．有待除夕整合租源．精進各項執行策略．"},{"start":21909.173,"end":21929.072,"text":"五、政府為解決老屋耐震能力不足問題．並促進都市土地開發利用．至108年辦理都市更新發展計畫．截至112年度之．累計核定1130件都更案．及341"},{"start":21933.788,"end":21953.572,"text":"3414件危老重建案．全國屋齡超過30年以上之老屋．與全國總房屋之辦事．令雙北地區三角斷層沿線老舊市區．及0403大地震過後之危險．建築物所在區域．上代儘速劃定更新地區。6"},{"start":21957.461,"end":21983.96,"text":"政府為除夕改善道路交通安全．推動道路交通助溪與交通安全改進方案．為112年度交通速度死亡人數3023人．為達方案下降目標．且遏少發生交通速度死亡人數增加．令補助地方政府．辦理提升道路品質計畫．作為衛生周圓．完工後消費指標為達目標．"},{"start":21987.062,"end":22009.935,"text":"7、政府為推動應應超高齡社會對策方案．112年度投入經費259億元．推動了345項工作．整體達成例A94.49%．為對策方案各變相的工作．規劃工作比重差異擴大．政策措施擁有擴增空間．"},{"start":22012.856,"end":22037.269,"text":"日照中心及社區關懷祭典．部件比例容待提升．不問勞動法令尚未配合檢修調適．就業環境容普遍存在年齡氣勢現象．8、政府為改善投資環境推動．投資臺灣三大方案．核定產業投資五大要素優化政策．截至112年度值．核定投資案件．"},{"start":22038.305,"end":22064.359,"text":"一千四百一件．投資均有兩兆一千七百二十二億元．為政策法規定定標準．為明確部分．優化投資環境計劃執行進度落後．台山匯回資金應用於產業實質投資未及六成．一半是案件尚未完成投資．且樹地性產業用地．擁有不足．供電品質亦待強化．"},{"start":22067,"end":22079.787,"text":"9、政府為應應思維科技相關專業人才﹐需求除息增加﹐推動關鍵人才培育及延攬方案﹐截至112年度值﹐累計投入經費67億元﹐110至112年學年度與合併扣充﹐"},{"start":22084.91,"end":22103.221,"text":"科學技術工程及數學領域系統．招生名額19,247人．為為有效舒緩人才短期情況．國家發展委員會．為掌握海外人才資料庫．就業金卡．取得及來台就業狀況．積極延攬國際人才．"},{"start":22107.634,"end":22129.746,"text":"十、政府為推進．促進數位國家．以創新積極發展．推動諸位國家方案．110年至112年度．累入投入經費920億元．對於提升我國數位領域競爭優勢．既有相當注意．為部分部會．商會防備AI法治配套測試．營單聯網中心．上華國際海欄業者參與．"},{"start":22135.129,"end":22163.602,"text":"低軌通信衛星計畫．部分關鍵技術及研究開發時程未如預期．影響衛星發射時程．本部向來秉持以民為本的審計理念．計較攸關國際民生的政府重要施政．近5年共計已提出57篇專章．其中112年度有17篇．內容涵蓋氣候變遷．及炸期首度分配食品安全．"},{"start":22165.083,"end":22176.392,"text":"智慧國家及智慧運輸等17個議題．所提相關重要審核意見．經行政院及各有關主管機關．積極研磨改善．主要列舉如處．一、應應"},{"start":22179.56,"end":22194.887,"text":"7.2變遷方面．政府為推動近隱轉型．未來公佈人家規劃授助永系長．與民間同步落實近隱轉型．令研擬7.2變遷方針．評估作為準則裁判．後續將依法定程序公告搬行"},{"start":22196.325,"end":22210.24,"text":"二、改善所得方面．行政院於今年113年7月．設立了經濟發展委員會．以將所得分配合理化．提高低薪對策．資本利得與薪資課稅等．列入討論解決範疇．並由各部會其次．持續推動交易．"},{"start":22215.482,"end":22241.182,"text":"機制、租稅等對策方案．令114年度．將調整基本公積4.08%．及金工教條新．新出待遇．3%．其發揮速範效果．帶動企業調新．三、打擊．加強打擊詐欺方面．大院已三讀通過打詐新釋法．行政院並設置打詐指揮中心．定打詐．"},{"start":22242.183,"end":22258.143,"text":"行綱綱領2.0先速全力打造是建構安基環境方面．以協助．地方政府應用〈0403大地震信訊劃定都市更新第7、36案．"},{"start":22260.793,"end":22276.364,"text":"復訂全國都更1167件．及違牢重建案3721件．立復續推動新建社會住宅資金補貼等多元基礎政策．五、應用超高齡社會方面復續佈建長照機構．整體長照服務涵蓋率達80.19%．"},{"start":22282.128,"end":22295.971,"text":"新增壯樹袋就業促進撤出．鼓勵壯樹袋．持續投入勞動庶長．配合政府推動國家希望工程施政重點．及呼應各界普遍關注的議題．"},{"start":22297.165,"end":22320.514,"text":"本部已將政府推動近年轉型打擊詐欺改善所得分配、輪才培育政府、諸會政府等重要施政納為113及114年度的查核工作重點．將除夕加強查核．發揮審計功能．眾上請請主席、各位委員、女士、先生、主教謝謝"},{"start":22326.561,"end":22326.641,"text":"謝謝陳審計長的報告"},{"start":22330.967,"end":22358.968,"text":"我們即將進行委員的諮詢在進行諮詢之前向各位介紹我們在一場二樓旁聽的臺北市百齡高中國中部的同學我們掌聲歡迎各位國家未來主人翁歡迎你們接下來向各位委員院會報告一下每位委員的詢答時間不得超過15分鐘輪到諮詢的委員如果不在場適同棄權首先我們請鍾嘉斌委員詢問"},{"start":22371.074,"end":22383.706,"text":"主席、在場的議事公務人員、省紀長及隨同官員、以旁聽信老、國民今天我們就來就省紀部來進行諮詢那主席邀請省紀長麻煩請省紀理長"},{"start":22395.786,"end":22421.899,"text":"總委員好陳議長好我今天的題目很清楚落實救安基金合規運用而且要強化審計的最終主導功能我想每次我跟您請教我都會跟您確認一下我們審計部的功能因為外界不是很了解所以我請教一下審計的職權是不是有包括合法性審計、績效性審計跟記憶查財務的維持是包含這三大部分的面向功能"},{"start":22422.699,"end":22438.596,"text":"那麼在於財務審計的部分根據審計法第二條你們包括監督預算的執行並且要審核財務的收支對吧對那你們在績效審計的部分根據你們的審計法第69條如果機關未盡職責者你們要報告他的上級機關甚至要報告監察院對嗎"},{"start":22440.014,"end":22462.447,"text":"那如果是因為不是因為預算的問題是他你們發現是制度的缺失或者是有設施不良你們要提出改善的建議對嗎對那如果你們發現不是他沒有做而不是他做得不好是他沒有做有些可以增進公益的你們也可以建議機關要去做吧是吧對對那另外呢雖然還沒發生但是你們看到有潛在的風險你們要提出預警的意見是不是"},{"start":22462.907,"end":22491.825,"text":"是的好所以省基部的功能很重要你同意嗎同意好那我們來問一下這個特題你知道就業安定基金吧就業安定基金的來源跟用途你大概知道嗎加強國民就業好它大概有將近八成是來自於僱主使用國外移工必須繳的費用它其中的包含三個作用第一它辦理有關這個國民就業第二要提供勞工的福祉第三它要處理有關外國人的"},{"start":22492.813,"end":22519.919,"text":"拼固管理好 那我們來看一下112年度到底用了哪些你覺得哪個部分用了最多錢提振勞工福祉5%外國人的拼固管理11%用最多的是不是促進本國國民的就業對的好 那你認為在疫情期間我們提供本國人的薪資補貼算不算算那如果像花東大地震災後的災民他的從晚就業這算不算算"},{"start":22520.438,"end":22535.887,"text":"好那我們看下一頁那如果說以這次勞發署北分署他用來裝修他分署長他的辦公室安裝軌道燈花了140多萬這算不算救安基金的合法用途這有點勉強"},{"start":22538.277,"end":22539.117,"text":"為什麼這些人員要中央一條片來指派?"},{"start":22559.514,"end":22578.731,"text":"因為要獨立要獨立要內部集合要集合這個機關首長有沒有內機內控對不對對如果以這個北分署來講把救安基因拿去裝修首長的辦公室誰應該發現是不是主計或會計主任要發現說不能核銷應該那如果他核銷了那這個主計主任是不是失職"},{"start":22586.147,"end":22601.176,"text":"那另外人事主任．如果機關內部的員工．經常超時加班加日來加班．那這個人事主任是否發現有異常．表示首長的內部的人事派遣猜情有問題．要不要提出報告要如果沒有提出來．人事主任有沒有失職"},{"start":22603.019,"end":22610.432,"text":"好那最後一個政風如果機關內部這麼多問題政風一定會接到檢舉如果今天政風接到檢舉沒有來查辦政風有沒有失職"},{"start":22613.784,"end":22638.592,"text":"應該有好那我們看這些都是中央一條邊指派到各機關像勞分署這是四級機關那他們跟首長的關係他是要監督跟輔佐首長對不對對如果被首長摸摸頭了他們完全失禁內部的紀錄功能誰來監督這些幕僚機關你覺得誰還可以監督他他來監督首長的結果他自己卻同流合污怎麼辦"},{"start":22641.732,"end":22651.593,"text":"我請教他要報告他的上級他就是被摸頭啦被收買啦他同流合污啊來我們來看一看審計單位的職能他是一個外部監督政府財政"},{"start":22652.503,"end":22673.031,"text":"一個政府機關你們審計室各界審計室是每年要跟這些行政機關中央地方跟他看他的審計報告跟他調一些數據出來做一些審查對不對對你覺得審計部跟你們的審計室有沒有可能去發掘機關內部政風人士跟會計他出了問題有沒有可能發掘"},{"start":22675.413,"end":22683.019,"text":"如果他在預算的資料上有問題就地抽查以後有可能發生有可能如果你們發生問題你們要怎麼做我沒退"},{"start":22684.895,"end":22707.148,"text":"你們怎麼做?會移送,像這個未競組者會移送他的相關單位。如果是財務上設有不法或重大違私,你們要移送上級機關,或交給監察院或司法機關嗎?對。所以這一件,勞發署的北分署可能有這個問題,你們就會做這樣的行為嗎?對不對?對。那如果是預算執行校能部長你們突出審核報告,你們機關回覆審核意見之後,"},{"start":22708.129,"end":22728.954,"text":"他要負政治責任嘛,所長負政治責任嘛,是不是這樣?對,對。所以一個是政治責任,一個是法律跟刑法上或受懲戒的責任,是不是有這個,你們有這個能力?審計報告可以敦促機關所長面對他的政治責任,或者是他要去面對他因為違法,他的法律責任跟刑事或公務員受懲處的責任,是不是這是你們的責任?對。"},{"start":22730.185,"end":22739.571,"text":"沒有錯齁好那請問你認為目前審計部你們年度的審計報告還有你們手下的審計室有沒有對中央或地方機關達到這樣的功能"},{"start":22741.402,"end":22765.823,"text":"應該我們都有你有沒有統計有有那你們目前因為你們的審計報告發掘出這些不管是預算執行效能不彰還是因為機關內部設有不法或重大違私要負起法律責任或刑事責任或移送監察院懲戒的有沒有有那大概怎麼樣數字怎麼樣每年怎麼樣存報監察案這五年一千多件一千多件移送涉及刑事案件2859案是"},{"start":22769.656,"end":22798.063,"text":"通知各機關查明處分的有2037人次剛剛講的增進財務效能的建議和重要審核意見我們這五年提出了一萬兩千多件那這樣的成績你滿意嗎?這樣的成績你滿意嗎?因為沈記長也有沈記單位你滿意嗎?我們會盡量再來加油那像勞發署、北分署這個情況你們有沒有查出來?有有,那你們做出了什麼樣的一個處置?"},{"start":22799.923,"end":22821.632,"text":"第一個他的未競逐責的他有那個採購異常的我們就移送檢調那檢察院呢未競逐責的我們依照我們的損計劃第69條移送監察院你們送了沒有最近這個報告正在加快啦全國都在看好我接下一個問題好來"},{"start":22822.964,"end":22833.347,"text":"先問你,先有田才有水,水田水田,是先有田才有水,還是先有水才有田?應該先有水才有田,因為是農作物。水資源是影響農業產量的重要關鍵因素。我們看到這幾年來,我們的農業部的農田水利建設,從127億成長200億,到接下來2025年下來會有212億。"},{"start":22848.471,"end":22859.693,"text":"你認為﹐農田水利設施的更新改善﹐跟軍務的復興、快遇整合﹐還有精準化的灌溉措施﹐以擴大灌牌戶﹐你覺得哪一項影響農民﹐哪一項要最優先做﹐"},{"start":22861.956,"end":22888.652,"text":"這事項都很重要 但是 農田水利設施更新改善這是影響最大那我們來看一下 現在農業部說怎麼樣他說沒有灌溉用水當然影響到農民耕作所以他們做到了 擴大灌溉服務達到五萬六千公頃過去水利會的時代有分灌區內他才處理 灌區外的不處理現在灌區外的農民認為有需要他可以跟農田水利組織申請農田會幫他做這些農田水利設施 對不對"},{"start":22891.494,"end":22904.382,"text":"好那請問一下如果我的農田原來在你們的灌區外現在你說願意幫我服務我就提出申請在你還沒有幫我做之前請問我的農地上沒有辦法好好的發揮農業效應農業部怎麼辦農民怎麼辦"},{"start":22908.38,"end":22912.986,"text":"如果灌溉設施未完善,主管機關要不要制定補償措施?"},{"start":22927.243,"end":22944.762,"text":"應該有目前國土計劃法我們的農業發展區有第一類第二類還有其他類但是我被化了為農業發展區之後我就限制我做其他的使用但是如果政府的灌開措施設施還沒有到我進來我沒辦法做我的農田發展那你覺得政府有沒有意外補償"},{"start":22945.936,"end":22966.551,"text":"你限定了人民的使用你又沒有提供他足夠的配屬設施政府要不要補償我們有向農業部提出這樣的建議就是跟我說的認同優先改善農業發展預定區的農田水庫設施如果還沒有做我們就要補償你同意嗎我同意好那我們來看一下現在根據土地稅法"},{"start":22967.752,"end":22995.299,"text":"在非都的地區他編訂了農業用地那他是身後前戶但是都市土地如果他的公共設施未完成前如果能做農地使用的不收地價稅是不是這也是一種補償嘛對我是可以工業用地我可以蓋工廠但是你沒有開闢道路我不能做工廠我自己去做農業用地那你不能跟我收什麼工業用地的地價稅嘛對好但是我們農地不收農戶我們來看看"},{"start":22995.859,"end":23008.008,"text":"那是不是我們可以根據下一個你可以要求農業部增進新增的科目預算對於過去經濟部若久悍不語他會調度農業用水經濟部會給農民的休耕補償對不對對"},{"start":23011.01,"end":23025.8,"text":"那如果不是因為天氣久旱不雨是因為農業部的灌溉設施未達我農地沒辦法灌溉沒辦法做好的友善耕作你認不認為農業部或你們支持要編列預算科目的用途來補償農民你這不支持"},{"start":23027.238,"end":23051.536,"text":"應該由農業部好好的來檢討很好,所以你要監督農業部新增預算科目提出相對應的補償所以我看最後就是說有水才有田,灌溉設施是農權如果我們政府應提供而未提供農業設施的話那我們這個不是施捨政府要提出補償措施能不能督導我們行政部門要具體的趕快提出改善方案"},{"start":23054.236,"end":23077.122,"text":"我先問你,如果你是老師,全班的總平均是95分,只有一個是考不到70分的,其他都98分。今天你跟校長說,我要把全班的平均分數從90分往上拉高,你是要幫助那些98分以上的考100分,還是先把那個70分的拉起來?"},{"start":23078.083,"end":23107.185,"text":"把70分的拉起來空間最有效益嘛對不對對好那我們來往下看同樣的我們來看臺灣的自來水普及我們的卓院長說啊我們的自來水普及率95%已經都有了剩下的5%沒有所以你認為未來自來水的普及要從這5%去擴大要找哪一個地方找普及率高的還是找普及率低的找普及率低的很好我們來看一下齁目前我們自來水的啊屏東只有全國未達八成"},{"start":23108.035,"end":23124.242,"text":"我們全國的普及率是95%那過去這幾年我們屏東成功的在短短3年內因為前瞻基礎建設的支持我們從63%提升到72%增加了6%、5%好那請問你往下看你認為接下來我們自來水的沿管工程"},{"start":23124.882,"end":23145.538,"text":"是要去針對已經普及率95%的繼續去找那個還剩下人口少偏遠的管型要較長的還是要找像屏東這種普及率低還有很多人口稠密的地方他的管線施設比較短的地方優先去做哪個成本比較低應該是普及率低的像屏東這樣的地方你完全認同嗎好那我們來往下看"},{"start":23146.243,"end":23165.934,"text":"各縣市的延緩工程的平均成本就像你說的沒有錯普及率越高的他要繼續施工的成本比較高普及率低的像屏東只要不到16萬就可以做到一戶了所以全國目前有超過51%的經費是用到屏東其他各縣市用的比較少你認為這樣的分配是合理還是不合理"},{"start":23167.932,"end":23193.645,"text":"你認為屏東用比較多合不合理合理很合理那未來如果我們這樣的相關計畫的經費運用是不是要繼續加碼投資屏東縣這是應該往這個方面來那所以我的結論就是說相較於其他縣市站在審計部你們績效審計的立場提高全屏東縣的自來水的普及率對於全國的自來水普及的最後一里路是不是最有幫助"},{"start":23194.52,"end":23202.202,"text":"對的那你們審計部的審計報告未來再看這樣的相關的水利或自來水普及工程你們會提出這樣的建議給行政院嗎"},{"start":23203.386,"end":23223.962,"text":"向委員報告,我們今年在合作114年的上半年在做無住來水地區的專案審計、專案調查我們會把委員的這些看法、觀點納進考慮這不是我的觀點,你完全認同就是審計部的意見了因為這都是合規合理的嘛"},{"start":23224.702,"end":23243.938,"text":"在那你們的職責你們就應該建議吧不是因為中委員建議嘛應該是你們本於職責這樣建議是不是這樣對你審計部是獨立機關那又不是我中央安兵的指令是不是這樣有一個問題啊因為他的湖流水啊湖流水對很發達對資源模擬所以啊接管的人啊"},{"start":23245.279,"end":23270.164,"text":"好像欸 意願也不是那麼強你放心 前幾年缺 缺餘啊 地下水抽不到 大家都嚇壞了 大家都要裝置來說那應該就在這個機會啊 趕快把它補給民眾的意願不是問題 政府的經費是要加強挹注好 來 最後你的結論啦就是說 除了我剛剛說的救安基金 你們的審計 你們要發揮最後監督的審計功能監督機關裡面才 就是政風"},{"start":23271.36,"end":23294.938,"text":"主計跟人事你們要作為這些監督單位最後的最終監督你們要做這兩個省紀部在決算審核報告因監督農業部透過預算科目的增列提供尚無灌溉服務地區的補償措施你知不支持我們會來做一個審計的那個檢討好那另外自來水的普及你也支持你剛剛的做法對不對對"},{"start":23300.583,"end":23326.64,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌委員詢問也謝謝陳主席長沈記長詢答第二位我們請登記第二位的廖先祥委員請詢問好謝謝院長也要麻煩邀請我們沈記長"},{"start":23329.838,"end":23331.278,"text":"麻煩陳省經理長廖委員好省經理長好這個延續剛剛中委員的議題因為救安基金應該是國人最近非常關心的一個政府預算質詢的一個相當大的一個社會議題大家非常的關心那除了先前可能大家有提到的演唱會的問題啊辦公室優化"},{"start":23357.345,"end":23376.036,"text":"等等的問題之外昨天在民眾黨有黨民眾黨也有召開相關的記者會也有提出一些其他相關的問題比如說媒體採購的限制性的招標問題或者是說他們的拍影片以及他的成效的問題那以及這個可能一些紀念品等等的"},{"start":23376.516,"end":23402.956,"text":"那剛剛這個沈縣長說相關的救安基金的專案報告之前提一個院內會提出來嘛那譬如說以個人演唱會這件事情來講應該是2022年的時候的事情那我們在那件事情發生之後我們這個省基部有沒有提出任何的相關的報告或檢討針對救安基金的缺失提出相關的一些糾正有在新聞爆發之前"},{"start":23403.869,"end":23422.607,"text":"第一個他連續3年啦虧了差不多200億要勞動部要去好好檢討第二個我們收回啊為何救安基金用的收回他差不多沒有符合規定的租出3億多元"},{"start":23423.627,"end":23440.153,"text":"第三個他在補助一些數位團體數位單位差不多100多家但是我們查這100多家長年連續三年都違反勞動法令要他要勞動部好好檢討"},{"start":23441.193,"end":23463.622,"text":"大概我們都會就這些包括他的收支並結算我們都會提出來好所以針對就葉安丁基金長期來可能對我們審計部來說也算是長期的一個黑名單了啦應該是我們都會注意他特別他注意他的就這個使用的狀況有沒有符合我們的法令那按照我們的這個"},{"start":23465.356,"end":23493.845,"text":"法定規定我們如果說在我們的預算使用上面依照我們審計法第21條如果說有各機關違背預算或者是有關法定的不當支出我們可以事後剔除追繳之那想請問一下那我們就是針對救安基金比如說剛剛大家最關心的開個人演唱會或者是辦公室裝潢的這個部分我們後續會不會提出這個剔除以及追繳"},{"start":23495.075,"end":23521.462,"text":"八位委員我們所謂因為這個大家全國人民關心我們有已經派我們的同仁去查核是初步發現為符合基金用途的有將近五千多億五千多萬五千多萬抱歉五千多萬這五千多萬我們大概會收回會幫忙收回像這個和採購異常的或者這個我們會移送檢調"},{"start":23524.043,"end":23531.093,"text":"像未竟執著的我們會移送監察案剛剛上面講的這些都是包含剔除跟追繳嗎?"},{"start":23532.476,"end":23556.512,"text":"大部分都收回的地方就是如果他有一些很明確的違背法令我們就會追繳或剔除追繳那這個追繳的對象是因為要回去看這個責任我們會請勞動部去這個問題給他他會給我們回覆會申錄當然大家最關心追繳的對象是誰你是跟機關追繳還是跟違法運用經費的這個當時的這個公職人員來追繳"},{"start":23562.359,"end":23562.439,"text":"因為這個是這樣"},{"start":23566.009,"end":23594.453,"text":"這兩個都可能要看你們後續的調查採購人員因為這個為什麼要做這樣的採購呢我們可能他涉及違法那他就要盡到檢調比如說許前部長他不會是採購人員嗎他不會是第一線採購人員嗎對那如果是他那個沙龍罩那這個可能就我們可能就會請他那個單位我們會請他收回他就怎麼收回我們會瞭解他是不是向個人收回"},{"start":23594.833,"end":23602.847,"text":"好所以說在之後的一個你們講的一個月的時間的報告提出報告的時候我可不可以拜託沈記長是否針對這一些你們認為有違法"},{"start":23605.738,"end":23624.771,"text":"違規或是不當使用的一些經費﹖你們評估一下哪些經費﹖你們認為應該要踢除、追繳﹖哪一些不用﹖那並把你們認為要不要的﹖理由、序名﹖這可不可以﹖可以﹖可以﹖就到時候在報告裡面﹖都可以看得一清二楚﹖我們審計部的立場﹖好﹖另外一點﹖我先謝謝審計長﹖那另外一點就是﹖"},{"start":23625.692,"end":23645.22,"text":"因為基金喔特別好用啦所以很多單位都喜歡用那我們就業安定基金他有沒有哪一項他的特別的可能業務啊或是等等他的功能有沒有什麼東西是本預算沒有辦法可能就勞動部這個機關本預算沒有辦法來這個達成他的目標任務的"},{"start":23649.812,"end":23668.07,"text":"因為剛剛鄧家麗病委有講嘛我們的收入大概就是這個移工的移工的收入嘛對不對移工的這個雇主繳的錢那支出當然就是這是穩定我們的就業那這些預算用在基金邊跟本預算邊他如果說要把這些基金預算挪回來本預算的話有沒有自愛難行的地方"},{"start":23669.045,"end":23695.704,"text":"就是預算編列的問題應該是沒有就是說救安基金他是有專用專款專用的一個性質他要用到那個法就業服務法裡面注定的促進國民就業提供勞工扶植這一方面他一定要用到他沒有用到這方面就是要在他的那個公務預算裡面編列不能在這裡來"},{"start":23699.245,"end":23724.09,"text":"來編（來注用所以就是因為剛剛沈記長有跟大家說明救安基金這幾年操置並決算的情況非常嚴重這就是基金的好處大家都要用基金我可以操置我到時候再並決算就好了那照剛剛沈記長講的既然他的問題這麼嚴重前科雷雷那他又沒有那個絕對存在不可替代的必要的話那沈記長你認為救安基金"},{"start":23725.327,"end":23752.097,"text":"如果說我們來提倡把它廢除的話您有沒有怎麼樣的個人意見把就業安定基金廢除回到勞動部的本預算去執行它的所有預算的收支就業安定基金是可以檢討會辭可能知識體大因為它已經行之三十幾年了所以有它的可是剛剛沈記長說它的所有的支出應該都是可以編在本預算內啊"},{"start":23753.455,"end":23775.586,"text":"然後他的撤職並決算的情況又這麼嚴重不受監督早年財政困難的時候有時候真的有一個專款專用對促進國民就業就提供勞工扶植會相當重要所以這個要慎重好沒關係那這一部分可不可以一併納入我們審計部的一個專案報告裡面"},{"start":23778.347,"end":23805.653,"text":"好就是針對就位基金他存在的必要性如果說你們認為他有存在的必要的話那你就序明清楚讓大家知道你們的專業獨立的意見好謝謝沈機長那另外一點就是我們立法院的預算中心定期也都會提供我們一些他們的審查的一些情況那我們的立法院預算中心提出幾個意見也有些意見就是針對中央政府的整體媒體宣傳費用的規模的增長那"},{"start":23807.253,"end":23829.019,"text":"一部分是金額的提高一部分是有許多的部分機關就是他可能他把這個媒體的相關的費用閃編在公務或是非基金的非營業基金或是特別預算當中那沈記長您認為同樣一個可能他是同樣的一個主管同樣一個可以運用這些資金的人他把這些媒體的這個"},{"start":23831.2,"end":23837.238,"text":"廣告的宣傳費用：拆散到不同的單位：部長：欸這個沈機長：您認為這樣是適宜的做法嗎?"},{"start":23839.795,"end":23863.57,"text":"這個政慾先導經會我們專案查了三年三年都專案調查我們也提出了非常多的意見給行政院參考後來他也訂立了專項但是他有的是說他會放在婚姻樂園裡面也有公務也有所以但是我們在查核的時候我們會把這幾個一起"},{"start":23867.012,"end":23887.802,"text":"來查我的說一起看一起檢討對其實營業基金可以理解營業基金另外看都沒有問題但是你公務預算跟非營業基金如果說你把一筆應該要用的款項把它拆分下來都會讓人家懷疑是不是有規避監督的這樣子的一個他的當初的想法會讓人家這樣子來懷疑所以說"},{"start":23889.175,"end":23912.516,"text":"如果說我們過去都有在做一些專案在跟行政院來溝通的話代表說沈記長應該也是認為相關的媒體宣傳費用不只是媒體宣傳費用啦應該是相關的費用如果說能夠集中一個這個主管機關來編列的話對於我們事後的稽查或者是他的公開透明來講的話應該都是有正面的幫助委員這個意見很好但是行政部門啊他有他的考慮也有他的相當困難"},{"start":23913.337,"end":23929.013,"text":"是好沒關係那至少是沈記長是認同這樣子的意見那行政機關他們有如果說不這樣做的話他們應該要續名理由為什麼他們要這樣子做好沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝沈記長那第三個第三個我們來討論一下這個採購的一些這個問題啦那這個採購的問題如果說啦有一個機關啊他針對"},{"start":23935.8,"end":23936.261,"text":"同意權之行使事項"},{"start":23946.456,"end":23967.87,"text":"高度集中化集中到某一個產家這個我們會注意要他多次都集中這個產家我們就會列為高度風險我們會專案查核我們先不要預測說這家廠商或者是採購過程中有沒有非法的部分我們不要預測他這樣子的一個現象對我們國家採購有沒有不良的一個印象"},{"start":23968.61,"end":23996.171,"text":"一般啦大家公務機關如果他是優良的他可以幫忙這個機關我們大概就這個是因為他是有時候找他可以把他的整個建築各方面的採購啊做得很好也有他這個工程會也有鼓勵用這樣的一個方法但是我們目前啦我們對於這些採購啊一點差不多有"},{"start":23997.792,"end":24008.999,"text":"有19萬件差不多有兩兆億元的採購我想跟審議長報告的是高度集中化會有依賴性過強的問題依賴性過強的問題不利於市場的公平競爭那你跟在廠方的這個談判或議約議價之間你的主動權會相對的比這個"},{"start":24021.202,"end":24034.026,"text":"這個這個充分競爭的一個市場好來的低嘛對不對是那所以說呃正在我們採購立場上我今天要提的是我們的國防預算我們這幾年啊其實在早年我們中華民國的國防的採購並沒有說"},{"start":24037.227,"end":24057.813,"text":"這個專門要就是專門都向哪一個國家採購比如說我們過去常跟美國採購也會跟法國採購無論是我們的幻象戰機或者是我們的可能拉法葉艦雖然說它過程發生一些弊案但是我們原則上它的分散有分散的好處但是近年來我們中華民國的軍備的採購長期的集中在美國這一個單一的國家"},{"start":24059.894,"end":24077.423,"text":"產生的長期的依賴性．他就會產生了一些的後遺症．產生後遺症．比如說我們媒體常常報道說．美軍相關的軍備採購案．他常常會有嚴當交貨的一塊的情形．這部分應該我們審計部．也都有在對國防部的時候．也都會有集合到．"},{"start":24078.203,"end":24102.567,"text":"有,像這個大概我們現在集合到的差不多有兩千多有兩千八百多億的備存帳在美國也有一千五百多億的那個延後交貨甚至是他可能是簽約了之後再預約也有可能預約之後他就不算在這裡面了"},{"start":24106.696,"end":24126.425,"text":"這樣子的一個情形就會對於我們的充值我們的國防他絕對是一個潛在的一個因子我們今天花了那麼多錢他的東西沒有辦法如時如約的如期的來交貨就會對我們的國防產生了一個可能產生了一些漏洞那針對這個部分我不曉得國防部針對他們的機密預算我們審計部也有辦法集合到嗎"},{"start":24127.419,"end":24139.891,"text":"都有都可以集合到大概經過案是高度的軍事和政治的一個因素還是有國家上位的政策還要考慮到國家整個國家安全各方面的事情"},{"start":24146.397,"end":24170.758,"text":"但是就是可能近年包括我們國防部﹐給我們立法院的一個報告﹐包括我們的高效能反專甲飛彈﹐F16的一些性能提升﹐還有我們新式戰機的採購﹐在他們可能換約了之後還是有延宕的情形﹐那就可能會﹐他的更早的一個起因﹐可能是因為我們國軍長期以來依賴美軍﹐他認為我們只有單一的窗口﹐我們不會去跟英國﹐我們不會去跟法國﹐我們不會去跟其他國家來進行軍購﹐"},{"start":24172.199,"end":24194.688,"text":"所以他可能在跟我們的談判上面他會比較強勢甚至美國他們對於這個海外軍售的制度是只要在發架書的最後年度前交貨就是可能會有這個階段性嘛他們不管階段性他們只管最後的這個年度前交貨就不算延遲那這樣子的一個合約的簽訂您認為是適當的嗎我們有請國防部檢討"},{"start":24198.891,"end":24213.547,"text":"請國防部檢討我們有發現這樣的問題請國防部要好好的檢討以後對於不管是任何國家只要有相關的軍備的採購案當初合約怎麼訂沒有特殊的原因那就必須要如期如約的來交貨"},{"start":24214.548,"end":24237.999,"text":"那他們有相關的一些違約機制嗎?我們政府任何政府機關採購都會有違約的懲罰金啊那軍公案會有嗎?軍公案他在訂的時候是沒有我們目前沒有看也要求他我們在查核的時候發現這種現象所以我們也有要求國防部應該要有這樣的一個機制要去能夠對這方面做一個要求那就麻煩我們審計部繼續針對上述的問題來提出一些建議給我們"},{"start":24243.936,"end":24270.668,"text":"好,謝謝廖先祥委員的詢問,也謝謝陳省記長的詢答。現在在我們議場二樓旁聽的是來自美國智庫東西中心2024年Jefferson獎金計畫的資深記者團。Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.我們掌聲歡迎。在接下來我們請登記第三位林毅君委員,請詢問。"},{"start":24294.564,"end":24297.689,"text":"謝謝院長 有請沈記長李委員好"},{"start":24308.718,"end":24333.174,"text":"最近勞動部爆發勞發署北分署的前署長 謝宜容涉嫌職場霸凌導致公務員的輕生案漸漸衍生出勞動部濫用就業安定基金從這幾年中央政府總預算案的預算書裡面可以發現就業安定基金的宣傳費竟然連連的增加那111年是1.2億112年是1.5億"},{"start":24338.017,"end":24367.085,"text":"到113年編列1.7億然後明年的預算編列更是高達2億1700多萬元實在是令人匪夷所思更難以理解從81年起政府為了平衡僱主聘僱移工的衍生的社會成本就依據就業服務法規定對僱主徵收就業安定費而且所有的僱主每個月要繳納就業安定費2000元給就業安定基金"},{"start":24367.725,"end":24395.741,"text":"根據資料顯示光是112年度的就業安定基金一整年的收取就業安定費的收入就高達212億多元其中將近三分之一的收入是由聘僱社福的移工的僱主所繳納的其實這個對長期聘僱外籍看護工的私人的家庭還有跟身心障礙者是非常沉重的經濟上面的負擔因此有關就業安定基金的預算的編列和"},{"start":24397.763,"end":24399.606,"text":"經費之用本席想要請教沈記長幾個問題"},{"start":24402.182,"end":24427.987,"text":"根據救安基金收支的保管．還有運用的辦法規定．救安基金是用來．辦理促進國民的就業．提升勞工的福祉．及處理外國人聘僱管理的事情．結果沒想到．近年來的救安基金．卻遭媒體踢爆被濫用的情勢．包括勞動部及勞動力發展署．濫用救安基金媒體政策．及業務的宣傳費的推廣費．"},{"start":24429.827,"end":24445.266,"text":"用來舉辦音樂會．還有採購三節的禮品等明顯就是救安基金的規定．跟救安基金的規定的用途未盡相符那我們執政黨竟然．濫用安定勞工的社福的預算．變成了政府官員舉辦音樂會．唱歌、養媒體．"},{"start":24449.051,"end":24476.449,"text":"還有做大內宣．甚至用來裝潢辦公室．還有採購三節的禮品．送禮做人情的不當使用．這對遵守法規．按時繳納就業安定費的．弱勢私人的家庭．來說是情何以堪啊．如此濫用人民的納稅錢．怎麼對得起．廣大的勞工的朋友呢．那請問沈記長．你說這是不是明顯的．浪費公堂啊．"},{"start":24477.574,"end":24493.315,"text":"他看起來應該不合基金用好那再請問沈記長沈記部有沒有掌握就業安定基金近年來的媒體政策及業務的宣導費及推廣費這些的預算的編列及支用的數據呢有"},{"start":24496.188,"end":24521.325,"text":"剛剛委員講的那個媒體政策及AU先導會的部分就如同委員所講的是逐年增加但是推展會他除了媒體先導會以後他以外他也有推展會像推展會113年也有1億3000多萬所以加起來媒體政策先導會加推展會大概也有3億多"},{"start":24523.226,"end":24551.807,"text":"所以就業安定基金是特別的收入的基金收入的來源是向屁股的移工的僱主徵收來的然後基金主要是用來促進國民就業嘛但剛才那個省紀長也說了那勞動部竟然每年編譯3億多的預算去做政策的宣導還有業務的推廣而且還被踢爆濫權使用那請問省紀長省紀部近年來就業安定基金各項的經費的支用有沒有進行了解還有沒有規劃查核呢"},{"start":24552.788,"end":24576.096,"text":"有沒有違法還是失職的情勢呢?這些審計部要如何處理呢?有,大概剛剛我也談過他我們收回安基基金他們去衛福規定的租出我們這一兩年收回3億多第二個他這三年短絕了差不多200多億我們也要請勞動部檢討"},{"start":24577.757,"end":24590.226,"text":"第三個他有的在補助那些長年連續都在違動勞動法令的一些補助啊3000多萬我們都有要他勞動部好好檢討"},{"start":24592.592,"end":24618.342,"text":"希望審計部可以為這些所施仁的家庭好好的把關．救安基金的經費的支用．請審計長可以在此承諾．針對安定基金的運用．承諾進行專案的審計．查核近5年來經費的支用的情形．包括過去幾年．是否有沒有作假帳．請審計長後續調查報告．一併提供本席和本院參考．可以嗎"},{"start":24620.016,"end":24640.441,"text":"因為我們有答應在裁委會的時候有答應委員他們希望能夠他希望我們大家委員也希望我們去查核我們所謂的出有一間派人去查大概有查了三年委員現在希望我們查五年我們會照委員的意思再增加兩年"},{"start":24641.834,"end":24644.216,"text":"建保署為了節省藥物的支出每年都會進行藥品的價格的調整根據113年度藥價調整的結果"},{"start":24667.988,"end":24674.411,"text":"遭到砍價的藥品有4000多項導致部分的藥品原本價格就已經非常低了然後再繼續被砍下去的話藥廠來說其實已經不符合成本了然後都停產了而且這會造成民眾用不到藥而且引發民眾的恐慌所以我想請教沈記長國內過去頻傳有缺藥啊然後缺快篩啊缺輸液啊這些事情甚至可能會危及病人的生命的"},{"start":24697.119,"end":24713.653,"text":"然後解決缺藥的危機還要花數倍的價錢由不同的國家來進口然後耗費更多的預算根本性的問題就是在於健保藥價政策不當那請問審計部有沒有進行什麼相關的查核呢"},{"start":24715.063,"end":24742.45,"text":"我們112年有查這個問題大概我們也提出來說這個藥價夠低可能也會造成一些問題所以我們有請健保署好好檢討一下不能造成整個剛剛委員所講的各方面的醫療用品或者藥品都造成切後的問題我們要找到一個合理適當的一個藥價"},{"start":24745.831,"end":24752.42,"text":"那針對健保改革 沈機長你是否同意我們也先從民眾的自我照顧的概念開始宣導呢因為這個政策就是對於藥品轉類然後讓我們自己國人有自我照護的環境透過這些部分已經安全無虞的藥品"},{"start":24763.635,"end":24788.42,"text":"然後像處方藥可以轉類指示用藥．並加速指示用藥退出健保．這樣的話就是不會造成．太多的健保上面的負擔．根據統計我國健保制開辦到現在．已經違法給付指示用藥．已經近30年了．據統計2022年健保扔．給付800多項指示用藥．佔健保給付藥物的比例達．"},{"start":24791.241,"end":24811.991,"text":"27.3%．一級就是說．保給付的藥物中．超過四分之一的項目是違法給付．更耗費了大約20億的公帑．那指示用藥依法．本來就是不屬於建保的給付範圍．但因為建保開辦初期．考量醫生、醫療與民眾就醫的習慣．建保署讓1200餘項的指示藥．暫時繼續以建保給付．"},{"start":24818.234,"end":24838.59,"text":"所以現在還有801項的指示藥品以健保給付那是不是應該要加速指示用藥就是這些讓這些安全無虞的藥品快速退出健保給付節省健保的資源讓健保資源可以合理的配置呢那請問沈記長你有沒有這方面有沒有進行相關的查核呢謝謝委員"},{"start":24840.319,"end":24862.691,"text":"我們的審計看法和委員的看法一樣因為這個一千多項一千兩百多項到現在檢討了以後還有八百多項我們有叫他請他是不是加快速度來看看還有哪些可能民眾實在相當"},{"start":24863.932,"end":24870.037,"text":"需要我用的藥品大概整體叫他們盤一盤大概這個部分我們今年剛剛1、2年的總結算的審核報告有提出來謝謝委員注意到這個問題"},{"start":24883.624,"end":24904.818,"text":"謝謝,謝謝審計長就是希望能夠加速指示用要快速退出健保給付這樣健保支援才可以更節省對,對,對好,那接下來我再請教審計長就是本席這邊有一個預算使用的問題想要請教你雖然現在還沒有執行但是希望審計部未來要好好的審計查核那就是國防部軍備局"},{"start":24906.379,"end":24933.311,"text":"預計在明年114年度就是114年到117年總共編了68億5900萬的預算捐助行政法人中科院與民雄西策那邊開發了軍規無人機的產線預計在115年投產那建置這一個航太機無人機的產業園區據說中科院打算委外管理但"},{"start":24934.171,"end":24955.021,"text":"收了廠房的租金提供廠商的進駐那雖然新建了航太無人機產業的園區的目的當然是要落實國防自主但是推動軍民技術整合的利益是良善的但問題來了就是經本席瞭解這個產業園區的土地產權管理是政府的"},{"start":24955.701,"end":24972.415,"text":"未來招商是經濟部和嘉義縣政府負責．所有收入卻沒有進國庫．全部歸中科院所有級管理．本席雖然我不是預算專家．我只想請教沈記長．這是不是哪裡怪怪的．"},{"start":24973.095,"end":24985.126,"text":"就是政府用公務的預算出錢出力給中科院結果卻是讓中科院自己成立所謂的專案基金自行管理那沈記長你當過主計總處的副處長現在身為沈記長"},{"start":24989.71,"end":25017.71,"text":"那你認為透過公務預算捐助的新建的這些園區所有的收入支出的使用是不是要透過中科院施設基金規避國會監督的方式符合預算法的規定嗎是不是應該要由國防部來成立一個非營業基金或特收基金的方式這樣才正確呢委員的建議很好我向委員報告主要動用"},{"start":25018.616,"end":25039.197,"text":"國家資源我們損基部一定管所以給委員瞭解到這樣的一個情況但是怎麼樣讓這個延期能夠最後能夠發展起來他的效益能夠達成用的什麼方法"},{"start":25041.519,"end":25055.748,"text":"包括國防部、中科院都要好好的還有行政院都要好好的去思考去建立一個不要這麼複雜的制度這剛剛委員聽完以後我都還沒有搞清楚"},{"start":25056.448,"end":25083.574,"text":"不容易搞清楚所以住度要讓它越單純我認為單純有效這樣的一個方法但是我們審計部只要動用因為這裡面我看起來委員提供的資料裡面有監製的國防部用公益算監製的68億我們這個經費也相當的大我們一定會密切的來注意"},{"start":25085.018,"end":25106,"text":"雖然這個中科院民雄航太計無人機產業園區計劃還沒有正式的執行但是本期還是希望審計部未來要好好的審計查核避免公務預算捐助的預算跟安定基金一樣遭到濫用還有挪用那國會還沒有辦法監督的問題可以嗎好我們會提出審計意見謝謝"},{"start":25108.783,"end":25122.461,"text":"那接下來國防部114年度有編列了稅出預算4760億元其中對美軍購M1A2T的戰車還有海馬斯火箭的系統還有"},{"start":25123.823,"end":25129.571,"text":"暗製魚叉的這些飛彈系統．還有採購F-16AV戰機．遠距遙控精準的飛彈等武器．總共有705億元．再加上國防部於109年．還有到115年的編列特別預算有2472億元．"},{"start":25142.267,"end":25157.994,"text":"2億元這樣的金額其實是非常的龐大的但是近年來常遭媒體報導交貨延遲至今留存在美方這些問題所以有關國軍對美軍購的執行的情況我想請教沈記長"},{"start":25159.615,"end":25176.984,"text":"國防預算支援有限那國軍歷年編那麼高額的軍購的預算分期按發價書付款給美方目前留在美方的資金有多少然後有多少還沒有交貨的還有國防部有沒有列戰管理呢"},{"start":25178.554,"end":25200.95,"text":"報告員從後面來看這個我們有一定要求他內臟管理這個大概有這樣的目前放在那裡的還沒有交貨的我們查出來匯錢去了還沒有交的有2800多億如果像這個重大經貨這個還會延遲的這裡面包括了這1500多億是還沒有這個是屬於延遲的部分"},{"start":25216.308,"end":25242.566,"text":"謝謝林益君委員詢問也謝謝陳審計長詢答接下來登記第四位吳啟明委員之諮詢以書面提出請審計部書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報在接下來我們請登記第五號林德福委員詢答"},{"start":25253.589,"end":25259.039,"text":"謝謝謝謝大會主席韓院長還有陳審計長還有各列席官也是不是請那個陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長"},{"start":25268.975,"end":25294.86,"text":"市長你好我想依決算法審計機關在審核各機關或各基金決算應該要注意有無違法施職或不當的情勢那依審計法審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令之不當之處得事前"},{"start":25296.541,"end":25298.564,"text":"拒簽或事後踢除追繳資"},{"start":25302.812,"end":25329.257,"text":"中選會前主委陳櫻前違法失職．花了人民血汗錢931萬元的案子省紀部的同仁已經有提供相關的資料給本席辦公室做說明作為最新的進度那我想本案從109年到現在法院早已經判決而且多次駁回在審"},{"start":25331.523,"end":25354.644,"text":"本席認為說中選會不當支出應該要剔除追繳．並追究陳寅前前主委的責任案子拖延到現在這4年多來省紀部你們是否有信心．可以把陳寅前違法失職．多花人民血汗錢931萬元給追討回來"},{"start":25358.302,"end":25380.627,"text":"報告委員大概第一個這個案子是我們移送監察院監察院後來彈劾後來彈劾法院判了要陳主委要賠20萬陳主委也賠了我們就開始我們也有請中選會開始追究相關人員的責任"},{"start":25382.067,"end":25384.769,"text":"沒有再追下去,那你認為這樣可惜嗎?"},{"start":25404.565,"end":25406.529,"text":"主席長931萬捏這不應該要發的捏對所以我們現在我們已經出公文請"},{"start":25415.27,"end":25439.925,"text":"中選會對因為不管因為大部分他都就是剛如同委員所講的純子緯這個案子都是被退回啦這個是都駁回上訴在審但是都是駁回就是說你這個案子是確定的而且應該要追回他的錢嘛對不對對但是他這樣拖拉我們認為審計部應該要有作為啊"},{"start":25442.026,"end":25465.808,"text":"我們已經棄了公室 要中選會開始檢討陳主委中選會檢討沒有用啦 官官相護啦我認為說 這個一定要有作為今天這是一個案例喔因為你今天要是亂花人民的血換錢 不應該花的結果到最後法院也判決"},{"start":25467.287,"end":25492.623,"text":"就20萬就好了其他都不必了你知道我們損計劃我們現在已經請中選會在追了我跟你講啦那個沈記長你中選會去追不如你們跟監察院甚至於啊該怎麼做你們要有作為啦人民都在看啦931萬不是9萬多人民的血汗錢一分一毫一厘都不能給他浪費這是我們的主責"},{"start":25495.265,"end":25520.293,"text":"我要繼續追所以說沈記長你要把這個事情我相信你很清楚投追到現在那個俗話說身在公門好修行然而部分公務部門的這些勞役不均的問題導致人員流動高那人力之緊公部門首長主管掌握的權力包括烤雞"},{"start":25521.954,"end":25532.139,"text":"沒有辦法全身自愛反而借端借勢想做皇帝那就更容易產生一些騷擾、霸凌等等這些案件"},{"start":25533.712,"end":25553.468,"text":"我相信剛剛很多同仁都在提出說勞動部同仁親身的案子本席也感到遺憾跟不捨後續更爆出就業安定基金使用的不當這些問題今年11月底陳審計長有承諾一個月內你要提出報告請問審計長這個承諾到現在為止有沒有變"},{"start":25557.847,"end":25580.815,"text":"沒有變自我會對外召開記者會正式的做說明我們會把這些報告送到立法院送到立法院好那目前曝光的不當使用項目舉辦客人的演唱會、裝潢、辦公室買咖啡豆等等沈記長還有哪些掌握不當使用項目可以對外說明嗎"},{"start":25581.995,"end":25599.713,"text":"沿著上我們去查了以後發現不合用途的大概有5000多萬我們會收回會收回齁要繼續追啦我認為齁一定齁不能縱放而且齁"},{"start":25600.819,"end":25619.102,"text":"全民都在看看你們到底有沒有作為另外對於就業安定基金不當使用勞動部長洪森漢已經承諾將在明年1月中提出強化的機制那本席是希望說省紀部也要提出就業安定基金"},{"start":25620.063,"end":25638.777,"text":"的使用用途做規範不要再讓就業安定基金變成部會首長的小金庫你的看法呢我們會給勞動部一些意見包括希望能夠公開租用名系還有使用效率這個要公開透明"},{"start":25639.958,"end":25662.426,"text":"那要是上網呢使用上網呢讓大家眾所周知啊對你支不支持支持那你就要求我認為說齁因為過去這段時間啊等於是小金庫那你不能只是勞動部的齁其他只要像這些基金一樣全部都要要求陳記長你的看法呢因為基金有時候齁"},{"start":25663.226,"end":25677.957,"text":"像你台大也是一個作業基金那個就對他來講所以我們有一些像勞動部這一個因為是啟資一些特定的產業我們希望他能夠公布他用到哪裡去了"},{"start":25678.638,"end":25692.174,"text":"陳記長你把這些資料統計以後本席需要一份我認為這個一定要公開透明讓大家眾所周知以遭公信好不好好的那我再請教陳記長這個"},{"start":25695.865,"end":25709.553,"text":"口頭報告資料第4頁提到112年度．查發現財務上違私的案件有35件．其中通知各機關查明處分的有29件．受處分人員有141人次．"},{"start":25712.414,"end":25732.402,"text":"審計部通知．機關查明．處分的部會．有國防部．經濟部．財政部．等等機關．反而勞動部沒有列在裡面．本期是希望審計部進行一一三年．決算審核報告時．勞動部要列為清查的重點．你的看法呢"},{"start":25733.223,"end":25748.401,"text":"這因為發生了這麼大的一個影響這位很大的一個的案子我們會照委員的意思好好地來希望該有的大家該負的責任該怎麼做就怎麼做啦我認為說這些"},{"start":25751.485,"end":25777.157,"text":"大家都在看為什麼因為你繳的那些外勞大家所聘請的每個月固定繳多少然後你用這些基金去就是到處亂花而且為所欲為你說大家怎麼看今天你要是沒有做出給老百姓給人民一個交代我相信啦人民會離政府越來越遠"},{"start":25778.786,"end":25793.765,"text":"你認不認同我同意那接著就是年輕改革議題以陳審計長來討論本席其實我老早就呼籲改革必須要有公平性你認不認同"},{"start":25795.054,"end":25811.294,"text":"任何的事情都要公平正義對那其實改革站在國民黨團的立場我們也都不反對那勞動部前部長何佩珊說政府撥補勞保戶最終支付的責任就是改革"},{"start":25812.556,"end":25834.196,"text":"那撥補就是改革那新任勞動部長洪森漢表示說目前沒有砍勞動勞保幾戶的整個規劃這些話聽在一般退休的這些軍公教他的民眾耳朵裡面真的格外的諷刺那個沈記長"},{"start":25836.052,"end":25854.442,"text":"因為過去我想蔡政府時代你就擔任了那到現在的賴政府高喊改革但卻只有找軍公教來下重手而且污名化軍公教製造階級對立"},{"start":25856.736,"end":25874.912,"text":"那勞保改革卻遲遲沒有任何的動作那民進黨政府改革只做半套因為勞保最快倒大家都清清楚楚那我請問陳審計長對於勞保年金改革的意見是否能認為勞保撥補金額"},{"start":25878.314,"end":25894.444,"text":"相較基金財務缺口．人數有限．建議勞動部重啟年改．並研議具體可行的．長期這個財務撥補計畫．那個．那個沈機長我們112年度有這樣的意見有這樣的意見希望他整個檢討檢討整個"},{"start":25904.635,"end":25929.445,"text":"改革工程整個重啟再研究看看因為他有相當多的潛藏負債第二個也看看他的一些資金的投資過半面的效益的情形我們希望整個盤一盤檢討一下陳記長其實年改當初他是軍公教勞"},{"start":25931.841,"end":25953.436,"text":"你要是說年改以後你要是站在公平而且讓大家能夠接受的一個平等線上我相信大家心無口但是啊他只有針對軍公教而且你通過這個法律照理講法律是不受既往你認不認同"},{"start":25955.018,"end":25971.145,"text":"這一個因為是涉及高度政治不是這個不是高度政治今天不能講高度政治為什麼因為這是有關年改年金改革叫得漫天叫響但是"},{"start":25972.165,"end":25993.798,"text":"最後只有針對性的而且喔講實在話啦變成人家說我已經在公部門我已經服務三四十年我退休以後我當初為什麼要跟政府這個來做這個工作我要去考試我才能夠升任我就是退休以後我有保障"},{"start":25995.509,"end":26021.276,"text":"那既然要保障尤其人到一個年紀年紀越大他的支出越多為什麼他可能年長的要請外勞第二個他可能要年老多病要經常上醫院但是我當初有這樣的規劃當我退休的時候你把我從等於說我一個月可以領六萬你給我砍到三萬六就是年年砍年年扣"},{"start":26022.276,"end":26049.513,"text":"你說這個對這些退休的軍公教公平嗎?那個沈記長你的想法勒?應該整個剛剛講的包括這些勞保的年金改革包括公務員的改革公務的這些改革應該政府應該再盤整一下盤整一下看看整個到底"},{"start":26050.694,"end":26066.66,"text":"應該是怎麼樣的一個整體會對整個國家發展會最好對那些退休的軍公教他們混混不平因為我經常在基層跑很多基層退休的軍公教他們認為說"},{"start":26068.622,"end":26095.469,"text":"為什麼我退休以後請來砍我你當初要是說我要做這項工作的時候你要是說我將來我退休以後年金一定只有60%那我就不選擇這個行業但是我已經做了三四十年我退休以後你再從我退休以後來砍我你要是說我今天立了這個法然後未來你要是要這份工作"},{"start":26096.249,"end":26106.281,"text":"你就要有心理準備未來你大概就是你退休以後最多領六成年年減他心裡有數"},{"start":26107.321,"end":26125.704,"text":"我認為這個才叫公平合理但是你當初開始的時候就說我要軍公教勞實際上只有改軍公教勞還連連撥補我不是說特別說去排斥勞沒有這個意思我是說一定要站在一個"},{"start":26126.525,"end":26155.039,"text":"公平的平等線上你竟然要砍你就是軍公教全部都要做我相信那些軍公教他們沒有話講但是剛好對倒他只有針對性的所以說那些人啦混混不平啦軍公教他認為說當初我要是說真的你要是說給我砍到六成我就不選擇這份工作我還考試過來的勒那個沈記長你有什麼看法"},{"start":26156.597,"end":26166.205,"text":"就尊重委員的一些這樣的一個看法這個也是政府要去看整個長遠的發展該怎麼樣是對國家最適最利的謝謝林德福委員也謝謝沈機長的詢問詢答"},{"start":26178.413,"end":26193.875,"text":"接下來登記第6位賴會員委員之諮詢以書面提出請審計部書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報再接下來我們請登記第7位洪孟楷委員詢問"},{"start":26205.319,"end":26206.485,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長"},{"start":26216.039,"end":26240.363,"text":"國務委員好好 沈記長獨立、廉政、專業、創新是我們審計部的宗旨、使命對不對對所以本席15分鐘跟您就教來討論一下首先之前你在委員會裡面有承諾一個月內會針對公部門的霸凌案還有就業安定基金提出調查並且提出報告請教 什麼時候什麼時候會提出來"},{"start":26242.085,"end":26262.615,"text":"當時答應都是一個月,現在年底到了就是一個月,因為當時11月,像那個調查我們已經有初步了,那個霸凌啊,因為既然要做了,要把它做好,我是全國包括中央包括地方啊,我開始整個在盤,因為這個"},{"start":26264.956,"end":26282.663,"text":"整合盤點我們各公部門有霸凌的狀況你是調查去給這一個部門的單位主管說你們部門有沒有霸凌還是針對我們公務員不一樣喔因為過去勞動部第一次調查報告出來讓我們發現說根本就是關關相護啊"},{"start":26283.903,"end":26304.105,"text":"利益良善．沒有直接霸凌．後來被全民華人而且要求之後．才做第二次的調查報告．部長離開之後．調查報告就變成是真相了．第二次調查報告出來之後．就變成是．有直接霸凌．有從屬關係．沒有利益良善．那一樣 沈記長我們最重要"},{"start":26305.168,"end":26331.708,"text":"注度發生這麼大的事情我們要把注度把前者把注度整個把它盤出來哪一個地方切了規範哪一個地方切了注度有沒有訂相關的保障措施我們會就這方面做全盤的瞭解全盤瞭解所以年底以前會把這報告給出來會年底以前國人都聽到了那另外"},{"start":26332.489,"end":26350.146,"text":"不管是外交部、交通部、速發部、衛福部、勞動部有這樣類似的狀況啊尤其我們有看到這個衛福部最近也有一個霸凌案件居然被人家認定是說是要求深蹲福利挺身是鼓勵沒有強迫"},{"start":26351.047,"end":26371.841,"text":"我先請教沈記長你看到這樣的狀況這樣子的樣態算不算霸凌算不算職場霸凌因為這個大概規範不明確所以我們要把整個柱度還有整個把它清楚的理一理所以大概會要求相關部門包括考試院包括人事總署對這方面"},{"start":26372.501,"end":26372.621,"text":"要規範明確"},{"start":26397.541,"end":26417.462,"text":"霸凌的樣態非常多就如同性騷一樣啊真的被受到這樣子的一個待遇如果說真的心聲不舒服親懵懵程度上他可能就構成霸凌如同校園裡面有霸凌事件有什麼以前我們還有看到說有一些這種學生他要求你說站在那邊唱國歌有沒有"},{"start":26418.363,"end":26436.196,"text":"這某種程度上也是霸凌啊或是說現在我們看到說要求你深蹲要求你福利挺身欸好端端的我在職場裡面為什麼要受到這樣子不公平的待遇而且因為上對下的一個關係而要求這樣的狀況這某種程度上就是構成霸凌但衛福部任長不是"},{"start":26437.037,"end":26452.053,"text":"不能造成說有些單位認為是霸凌有些單位不是霸凌那這樣子全國就沒有一致的標準了所以沈記長您的報告裡面出來會把這些霸凌的樣態以及標準給羅列清楚是不是第一個我要求我們的同仁去看國外的狀況第二個"},{"start":26454.715,"end":26471.247,"text":"校園的霸凌我們也要了解因為校園的霸凌也常常會發生我們也要了解校園的霸凌再來我們也會去了解國軍的霸凌因為國軍是高度嚴格管理所以這些霸凌的從這裡來看我們這個公務的一個霸凌我們是寧願從"},{"start":26479.473,"end":26497.246,"text":"把這個標準認定清楚標準我們希望單位裡面去把這些標準訂得合理合情合理合情好我們國人期待我們年底在不到兩個禮拜的時間能夠有一個獨立廉政專業創新的審計報告我們努力再來"},{"start":26501.021,"end":26516.066,"text":"市長一樣想請教就業安定基金很多剛剛林德福委員也請教過了本次也聽到你講是說當然要求應該勞動部要做相關的一個規範嘛我就提一點啦我們的基金管理可以有一國兩制一國多制嗎"},{"start":26517.247,"end":26539.641,"text":"不應該吧 不應該 不應該 同意的附屬單位算足行用是 在這一次的就案令基金裡面有一個很嚴重的狀況就是當他使用了基金去做電子採購即便他12點裡面認定 沈議長之前講是說這個所謂的演唱會叫做政令宣導或是政策宣傳但是實際上就案令基金裡面是沒有這樣規範不過"},{"start":26541.622,"end":26555.762,"text":"至少省紀部這邊已經要處理可是我們要關心的是什麼關心的是說當初在救安定基金使用的時候他其實電子採購並沒有在勞動部的官方網站上面來把這列表給列出來"},{"start":26556.513,"end":26576.903,"text":"他畢竟是說要回歸到工程會裡面的電子採購的大水庫裡面你要特定的標案特定的關鍵字你才有辦法找到但是文化部其他部會有些部會的就相關的基金使用他的電子採購的基金使用項目他就直接羅列在他的官方網站上面"},{"start":26577.603,"end":26591.484,"text":"所以如果說您剛剛講跟林德福委員講是說要求他們應該要公開透明的話是不是能夠先要求所有的部會基金使用只要是電子採購的部分都應該羅列在他們的官方網站您怎麼說"},{"start":26593.034,"end":26613.947,"text":"委員是這樣剛剛我先澄清我在委員會談的那個是我們看到他是科目是出在政令宣導不是我說他那個他用政令宣導來解釋來第二個啊我們剛剛委員那講了我們查到他沒採購"},{"start":26615.319,"end":26629.569,"text":"他直接用那個開口契約他開口契約契約就是文憲、鄭麗仙黨還有一個大包裡面然後其中就只有要求廠商去處理了對不對那這樣子就更難防範了這我們是採購議場我們送檢調、送監察案"},{"start":26633.191,"end":26654.949,"text":"好那再拉回來現在所有的就業安定基金也好或說相關基金的使用因為不只是農業勞動部啊農業部其實也有類似的狀況啊我們之前有講過是說上農產品雞蛋當時雞蛋補助的時候111年農業部就用農產品受進口損害救助基金來撥補上億元"},{"start":26656.73,"end":26672.467,"text":"但是我們去看農產品受進口損害救濟基金的相關規定裡面其實它針對的是關稅調漲與否以及開放進口而遭受損害但國內的雞蛋其實大家知道原因是飼料成本上漲跟禽流感"},{"start":26673.288,"end":26697.456,"text":"所以他其實跟進口的關稅沒有直接的關聯好可是我們現在要求的是說所有的基金的使用各部會不能變成是部長的小金庫所以如果說有動動到所謂的電子採購的部分的話是不是應該要求所有部會他們要羅列在他們官網上面依照採購法的規定這些如果超過一定的規定都要上採購網"},{"start":26698.396,"end":26698.436,"text":"那個委員這個"},{"start":26721.26,"end":26723.141,"text":"我同意委員的意思好謝謝那沈議長我們要要求各部會做吧"},{"start":26739.891,"end":26766.273,"text":"對阿當然什麼時候能夠做到這個我們回去阿我們查核完以後阿剛剛講阿像那個農委會的那些阿我們也都像有一些不合規定的我們也都把它檢列啦這所以給委員知道我們農委會也檢了3億多好沈記長剛剛有特別講到說會要求各部會把相關的各部會用到的電子採購放入在他們官網"},{"start":26767.418,"end":26793.372,"text":"以招公信也讓全民能夠檢視我想預算現在是預算審查會期預算當用則用當審則審我不會要人家說這個要馬跑又要馬不吃草但是如果說不該花的費用我們一毛也不能浪費我想這是我們共同的立場來沈記長既然接下來第三點剛剛本席也特別聽您的報告請您在這次有特別提到說政府的打詐的部分"},{"start":26794.092,"end":26816.696,"text":"但是越打越詐其實也是不爭的事實為什麼因為從詐騙的案件數跟詐騙的金額來講節節升高但其中我記得我之前在委員會的時候也請教過您我這一次再請教您因為這代表是說我們審計單位到底有沒有如實的去查核我們行政部門的一個行政效率因為112年的時候我們的財損是88億"},{"start":26823.24,"end":26851.659,"text":"有37000多件但到113年也就是今年到10月底就已經高達7萬多件並且財損274億三倍之多詐騙的案件是兩倍財損是三倍那去年到今年為什麼突然間有大幅度的成長如果說是經濟成長我當然很拍拍手但不是是詐騙案件的成長是財損案件的成長"},{"start":26853.81,"end":26879.818,"text":"委員非常謝謝我們第一個委員這樣玩以後我們114年我們會專案查核就是查核他這些統計這些事物都有一個真實性透明剛剛那個我看出來政府已經面對他所以他比較公開透明所以之前政府沒面對之前政府不夠公開透明"},{"start":26881.799,"end":26883.26,"text":"現在疫苗版跑出五百多億了"},{"start":26904.554,"end":26925.979,"text":"是啊那500多億我們看前幾年因為詐騙案件不是你我大家共同關心我們生活在2300萬人生活在這塊土地上我們都希望政府拿出具體辦法但是具體辦法先決條件第一就是面對問題面對問題才能解決問題但過去看起來全部都是美化數字造假數字"},{"start":26928.105,"end":26956.605,"text":"說謊的數字啊所以沈記長您剛有提到什麼時候可以提出來檢視過去為什麼過去的數字跟現在的數字天壤之別因為這樣啊 鮑委員我們是每年查完以後會會有一個總結算會有審核報告出來我們是納入這個總結算的審核報告什麼時候 今年年底嗎明年的我們明年的七月底會把總結算審核報告編好"},{"start":26957.526,"end":26986,"text":"沈記長是要再給時間讓國人遺忘這件事情還是怎麼樣現在已經看到了你剛也講了儀表板500多億沈記長去年你今天的決算報告去年是88億今年儀表板是500億差了5倍欸那5倍這樣子的數字不用去了解跟調查嗎要啊對"},{"start":26987.81,"end":27017.108,"text":"那你跟我講說明年7月才能夠做出來那是我的審核報告能不能先讓國人了解一下就像您剛講的我們要調查全國的公部門的霸凌事件能不能先讓國人清楚明白了解到底為什麼會有那麼大的一個落差是真的今年詐騙太猖狂太氾濫還是過去的數字是造假的過去88億是沒有符合現實的委員這樣給我三個億"},{"start":27020.56,"end":27047.293,"text":"三個月對沈議長您說的我希望真的能夠拿出獨立客觀的調查報告最後斑斑有鮮乳農業部農業部這個政策我特別翻了一下我們的決算報告其實我們審計單位已經有提醒農業部因為我們有看到的是說審計部的報告裡面國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳是最高有差到21塊的價格"},{"start":27048.914,"end":27077.806,"text":"那如果說2025年紐西蘭的進口液態乳﹐零關稅上路的話﹐其實會衝擊影響﹐所以省紀部報告裡面﹐已經要求農業部規劃本土乳業轉型﹐以因應衝擊﹐我給予肯定﹐可是當農業部提出來的一個做法﹐他用113年到116年的﹐養牛產業全面升級轉型計劃﹐裡面的其中又還一年要花15億﹐的公務預算﹐做什麼﹐"},{"start":27078.53,"end":27094.282,"text":"做一個班班有先辱結果我不知道沈機長有沒有看到最近從9月開學了還沒有辦法拿到10月大家先辱之亂11月農業部部長出來講是說如果學校真的沒有辦法配合的話可以不要配合"},{"start":27095.29,"end":27117.526,"text":"甚至我們有一些縣市政府的學校大家直接講啊要班班有鮮乳之前先拜託班班有冰箱吧不然鮮乳來那個天氣熱一下就壞掉天氣冷你要怎麼樣讓學童能夠拿回去這都是一個問題好15億的預算到現在執行了狀況真的是讓大家天怒人怨啊"},{"start":27118.546,"end":27144.408,"text":"這樣子的一個政策錯誤的部分有沒有檢討的必要?我們審計單位能夠怎麼樣來把它導正?我們近期會這樣進行查核瞭解。我們就是希望...近期會查核瞭解?希望做一個事情效益非常重要,配套也非常重要。是!就是當初我們...連審計長你都會提出來就沒想到農業專業教育專業完全不知道沒有配套教育部雙手一攤然後就是把問題丟給地縣的學校老師"},{"start":27145.815,"end":27170.186,"text":"來,什麼時候能夠跟國人有一個具體的瞭解?我們近期會去,大概會給我三個月。好,謝謝洪孟凱委員的詢問,謝謝沈議長的詢答。"},{"start":27173.816,"end":27187.281,"text":"跟我們議會報告跟院會報告現在在我們一場二樓的來賓是來自美國東部跨州所有的州議員訪問團Welcome ladies and gentlemen我們掌聲歡迎"},{"start":27191.185,"end":27204.258,"text":"在接下來我們登記第8位武力華委員之諮詢以書面提出請審計部書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報在接下來我們請登記第9號賴世寶委員詢問"},{"start":27215.861,"end":27222.263,"text":"謝謝韓院長主席以及各位親信有請審計長麻煩再請陳審計長大家午安好審計長我看你今天情形不錯"},{"start":27232.689,"end":27238.193,"text":"今天從開始到現在講一個大家關心的這個就業安定基金你說被不法使用有五千多萬"},{"start":27254.808,"end":27266.622,"text":"要追回請問你怎麼追回不是基金用途不合基金用途請問你怎麼追回因為我們會修正簡略不是不是簡略誰要負責這筆錢呢"},{"start":27268.49,"end":27287.959,"text":"因為他可能啊他有的時候我們來看這個事情啊修辦公室可能有的需要或者是做某一個事情需要我問的重點就是這筆錢是要叫這個勞動部賠把錢列掉還是叫許明春用的人賠"},{"start":27289.159,"end":27303.775,"text":"這一個是這樣這一個因為我們會有的會送檢查案有的會送檢調我們會看檢調檢查案最後的處理結果到底是要個人賠還是要單位賠"},{"start":27304.918,"end":27320.653,"text":"這一個初步我們會先做簡略那就是單位賠嘛他放在那個就業安地基金的他不合他的用途我們簡略那你簡略我們要請目前在請會請勞動部說明"},{"start":27324.38,"end":27350.643,"text":"沈機長你這樣糊弄大家這筆錢等於還是政府出啊被不當使用還是政府出啊我們要一個東西就是他不當使用用的人要賠這個比較重要啊你如果是政府賠就一樣左手右手這個政府那個政府等於都沒人賠啊要人賠誰使用誰不當使用那個人要賠你同意嗎"},{"start":27352.522,"end":27366.166,"text":"這個我們所有的要看財務責任是誰請問你同意嗎個人要賠你不當使用就要賠這一個因為賠不賠這一個要看整個整個損棄花線這個你說當然是這個要我們就要剔除就要減淚"},{"start":27376.489,"end":27398.73,"text":"來 沈機長你講一波簡略的結果還是政府負責嘛所以等於是黑貓偷吃你殺白貓啊老百姓是白貓啊這部會首長這大官他亂用結果你處罰也是處罰老百姓這不公平啊對不對黑貓偷吃你打白貓變這樣啊"},{"start":27401.104,"end":27425.84,"text":"對不對,所以你這個糊弄大家哇,我剛剛看那些新聞,歐外情咧歐外情咧,說這樣審計上要抓這個五千萬結果你仔細一看,都是假因為什麼?還是政府出還是政府出所以啊,你要追到說這個錢誰不當使用那個人要把口袋的錢拿出來賠,這樣才有去賠可以做得到嗎?"},{"start":27427.367,"end":27437.946,"text":"這一個我們要看檢調還有看監察院整個調查結果因為我們沒有調查權你還是做不到來我問你一個東西啊要OLA SEBS"},{"start":27439.184,"end":27464.382,"text":"加拉丁美洲及加勒比海．最高的審計機關．我們國家106年．最後一次林慶榮．審計長．參加了．之後．沒有參加了．這麼重要的國際機構．拉丁美洲跟我們．很多的國家．跟我們有邦交國．而且明年又是巴拉圭．請問你要不要去．你要不要去．"},{"start":27468.247,"end":27487.159,"text":"報告委員這個因為去要有那個我們沒有參加上次前幾年是疫情所以大家就這一方面就停下來再來我們是去我們是發展到OECD歐美國家因為這個最高審計組織這個OnaSense這個是因為我們去了很多年了"},{"start":27493.274,"end":27519.866,"text":"你還不去?我們去了很多年了啊這幾年都沒有啊因為去了很多年了那邊的國家的損濟狀況損濟方法我們都了解了現在我是參加我們請我的同仁到去巴黎去那個歐美去美國去參加OECD的你自己不去嗎?請問你自己不去嗎?"},{"start":27520.846,"end":27529.971,"text":"因為這個還是由同仁阿 年輕的同仁阿來參加為什麼林青龍就去他審計長就去阿 阿代表你不重視喔"},{"start":27531.089,"end":27537.432,"text":"我們現在中華民國能夠走出去的國際組織已經不多了如果能夠讓我們走出去代表我們的國家能夠走出去這是何等重要的事情"},{"start":27557.981,"end":27561.384,"text":"明年你要去聽說只不敢講而已我明年沒有要去都沒有要去確定沒有"},{"start":27584.824,"end":27598.098,"text":"我都沒有要去因為齁我認為年輕讓我們的年輕同仁啊出去的效益大於我沈記長出去沈記長不一樣啊你代表國家你小看自己啊你是怕死喔"},{"start":27600.98,"end":27622.558,"text":"實際上這個國際主持我們106年到現在都沒有參加了欸為什麼不去當然要去啊而且去的話說不定可以用我們國號啊、立法會的簽啊或者台灣都可以用我們的名字去啊為什麼不可以對不對這麼重要的結果我看你哈哈哈哈怎麼會這樣子呢實際上光這一點啊"},{"start":27623.559,"end":27637.494,"text":"我就讓我對你的尊敬就鑑定一半了這陳記長這樣不行了不行了來我們就看你主要的你的第二預備金了我把你統計都只有你16"},{"start":27639.622,"end":27663.803,"text":"第二預備金都在9月底10月開始申請可能有什麼事情不夠了錢不夠了要申請一個第二預備金結果欸戰爭老坑毛坑不拉屎欸要了一大堆錢不用來來來我們看喔從110年到112年最嚴重的是哪個單位啊文化部的台灣美術館"},{"start":27666.344,"end":27688.89,"text":"99.47%他要了100塊呀99塊不用耶再來第二個單位內政部預政署99.6%剩下的錢了再來法務部行政執政署剩了96%再來行政院啊行政院今天做龍太婆來啊行政院要一堆錢結果94%沒用再來主計總署喔"},{"start":27693.411,"end":27699.757,"text":"要了一堆錢92%沒有用 審計長你要查查看嗎?這個亂 口口咧 聽我講完 審計等於是第二預備金啊 這個錢我要 那個錢我要 落地落地啊 燒燒啊都沒用"},{"start":27709.006,"end":27723.198,"text":"阿怎麼會這個樣子呢?怎麼會這個樣子呢?動之第2位北京就是經費不敷對啊!可是他這經費還保留下來那是顯然這個有那個我們會給行政院注意到這個事情你們要不要查?會查!"},{"start":27726.58,"end":27750.245,"text":"因為這個我們的,謝謝委員,這個我們的發現一年差不多有兩、動租完以後有兩三億的保留每年都有兩三億的就是說,這幾個單位,第1會期是救命的前提這幾個單位搶錢啦,放在地上都沒用你看,你看喔,行政院,左龍泰帶頭對不對,他上一屆不是左龍泰啦"},{"start":27752.246,"end":27767.858,"text":"陳、陳、陳什麼的,陳建仁,帶頭做不好的示範啊,要了100塊,只用了不到6塊,對不對,剩94天多,你看,文化部,要了100塊,用不到1塊錢,用不到1塊錢,法務部也是這樣,要100塊,用了4塊,不到4塊錢,"},{"start":27775.329,"end":27777.45,"text":"委員講得很好,我們會要求行政院改善"},{"start":27795.728,"end":27823.115,"text":"要叫行政院 這行政院做得不好嘛行政院做得不好嘛 對不對也不是說 那個應該 住度 法律的住度啊就是說 監衛 凍住第二杯先第一條 第一款就是監衛不服使用的對啊 這你不夠錢了你才用啊還凍住了以後還保了 這個這個現象不正常什麼時候可以完成調查跟糾正 什麼時候一個月內"},{"start":27824.555,"end":27852.97,"text":"兩個禮拜可以啦一個月那麼好啊因為要我現在啊委員要我調查要我審計的非常的多啊所以喔那我再看一個很重要很重要的題目喔來來來我看喔你是管審計長管錢怎麼使用喔結果我們這幾年了喔政府都說不可以給地方政府喔財化法喔你們要錢喔喔怎麼樣公開那個廢修署啊"},{"start":27853.78,"end":27861.185,"text":"你看喔2021年﹐稅金剩餘2979億快要3000億喔2022年﹐4993億快要5000億2023年﹐2790億快要3000億可見這幾年我還查2020、2019每一年的稅金剩餘都是2500到5000億可見的什麼意思我都給你了封好了 預算都通過了"},{"start":27883.96,"end":27905.825,"text":"你中央自信不完．把這個錢．下來．垂直分配．給地方政府．不是好歸好歸．根本這什麼歐北亂共．什麼哎呦不得了喔．這個才挖挖一分的垂直分配．中央沒有錢了．國防沒有錢了．這樣胡說八道．中央每年省的錢．稅計剩餘．就剩了2500到5000億之多．"},{"start":27910.227,"end":27920.086,"text":"所以這些錢垂直分配給地方政府安否合適合適安否合適合適來沈機長我這樣的講話有沒有錯你告訴我有沒有錯"},{"start":27922.923,"end":27950.637,"text":"中央這幾年都有稅金剩餘但是地方我們查的地方112年度它的統計起來加起來也有560億的剩餘所以我們的財政在逐步改善中都會很好沒有回到問題啊我問你說中央都這幾年來有2500億到5000億用不完用不完用不完那就給地方政府用"},{"start":27951.617,"end":27980.676,"text":"就給地方政府用啊才華娃就是這樣的概念本席提出來3000億給地方政府所以垂直分配中央給地方從這個表更能夠來強化It's about the timeIt's about the time中央你要allocation這些resources給我們的local government"},{"start":27981.346,"end":27993.003,"text":"這個很重要才化法要修錢在這裡錢在那裡在這裡不是亂講一通什麼這個就沒有錢了國外沒有錢每年都剩了2500億到5000億你看2022年剩了快5000億了"},{"start":27998.325,"end":28011.367,"text":"錢用不完啦錢用不完啦所以才劃滑垂直分配中央給地方2500億到5000億天經地義天公地道你說對不對"},{"start":28014.333,"end":28035.713,"text":"財務要考量中央還有地方的財政狀況剛剛講中央現在不錯地方也不錯但是在劃分的時候錢和數目也要一起考量有時候一個龍水路的問題它會跑到中央來"},{"start":28036.774,"end":28050.601,"text":"沈記長我問你都紮紮實實的問題啊你回答我都是天馬行空啊都歐北這樣歐陵勢動啊勢戰勢戰不能這樣子啦沈記長最後一題啊我們來看喔政府的潛在負債啊你看多嚴重啊勞保12兆我還客氣的救治的軍工教3.2兆"},{"start":28062.935,"end":28090.158,"text":"公務人員退伍基金2.9兆、公保700多億、軍保200多億、 農保1.2兆、中央地方政府19.2兆、中央都沒有錢了, 哪裡有錢來補助臺電啊?臺電2000億砍殺天津地, 而且臺電的經濟部長還居然說什麼?ㄟ柏齊萬斤啊,我可以去借錢!我可以借錢!你是不是贊成2000億不要給他?"},{"start":28091.203,"end":28116.228,"text":"他有幫他去借錢了他借很多錢了他說他去借錢了他已經借很多錢了他借再多不愁再多不借因為他大家都就是能源對國家相當重要大家以國家整體為念今天我問你因為我時間快到了是不是因為我們錯誤的人權政策讓我們台電虧損雷電對吧這句話"},{"start":28119.912,"end":28120.352,"text":"謝謝賴氏寶維的詢問也謝謝陳審計長的詢答"},{"start":28151.328,"end":28169.401,"text":"法院會議112年度中央政府總決算審核報告案之諮詢已詢答完畢我們非常感謝陳審計長及審計部所有列席的官員進行報告答詢我們現在做以下決定一、中華民國112年度中央政府總決算及"},{"start":28170.061,"end":28194.504,"text":"附屬單位決算．一、終計表審核報告案．交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查．二、將各委員會發言記錄．及書面諮詢含送審計部．請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆．三、以刊登之書面諮詢．尚未登載公報者．一律補刊．"},{"start":28195.967,"end":28215.473,"text":"第二、繼續處理復議案．現有本院民進黨黨團．針對第12次會議報告事項．第13案．及第35案之決定．提出復議案．請公決案．我們做以下決定．令定期處理報告院會本次會議進行到此為止先來散會"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}