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立法院不應該這樣。至少整個正義、程序正義鎖住。發言、發言完畢。表決後續程序我們要怎麼做。包括而後這幾個政大法案。"},{"start":2675.994,"end":2690.794,"text":"因為我在這裡談的就是說,從本月二十號,也就是禮拜五,到下一個月一月二十一號是我們休會期。這一個月時間是台灣最關鍵的時刻。"},{"start":2694.366,"end":2719.301,"text":"因為所有國民黨要毀憲端證、所有要憲法訴訟、什麼財務法法等等。包括這個警察人員、人事條例等等。所有國民黨要的法案全部集中在這裡。這一看這些法案都是大有問題。那不是國民黨認為它整個碾壓過去就可以得逞的。所以我這樣講的就是說"},{"start":2720.851,"end":2724.034,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":2741.972,"end":2759.313,"text":"所以我們就想好了,我們希望就是說,誠意正義的維持,那我們輸了我們可以認,那這個是一個原則。上禮拜五也建型了,也拿到照這樣做。於是乎我們有看到,"},{"start":2760.819,"end":2762.9,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":2780.972,"end":2807.55,"text":"一副很忠厚老實壯的問我說,要怎麼處理啊?我講的就是說,我們不希望有一個忠厚的院長,當然不希望有一個死炸的副總召,然後有一個違法的秘書長,等一下我要講秘書長的問題。這一點要先大家講清楚。這副總召一副老朋友壯,"},{"start":2809.731,"end":2813.075,"text":"十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":2829.394,"end":2830.675,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":2848.473,"end":2872.858,"text":"所以不管委會、院會都應該遵守這個原則,否則又要永無安寧是不是,這一點。所以吳文綺問我,我說是這樣的,沒有錯。我說我今天晚上,禮拜天晚上,她七點打電話給我,我說我今天晚上,禮拜天晚上八點,我找我們黨團所有幹部這一排都是,還有比這一排都更多的。"},{"start":2873.658,"end":2875.159,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":2899.727,"end":2923.004,"text":"至少有一個基本的優先規則。所以我就告訴副分局說,我今天晚上八點,我會把我們整排的幹部找到我辦公室,我來遊說他們,我們不要打架。我們來建立立法院的典範,雖然我們少數,但是我們要照由許規則來,輸了只能算,沒有沒了。他要被釋憲再釋憲,要進行處分再進行處分,那是一回事。"},{"start":2924.305,"end":2949.337,"text":"這樣民主才會進行,還好不容易從建議時期犧牲了多少台南人,三十代台南人。然後七十年來,我們有走到這個民主,我們要好好珍惜,這是我們堅持的。況且我從事民主運動已經六十年了,如果六十年我就在黨外時期,到今天我還在堅持一個原則,"},{"start":2950.678,"end":2977.063,"text":"那表格書要領,但是我們至少要站在道理的裡面,領著民心。很差路照永遠弄不好啦。國民黨的百元智囊會倒,我們都看得陰間,看得很清楚。所以這是一個民主的基本原則,而且守護台灣,守護民主,這是民進黨的DNA。"},{"start":2978.763,"end":2997.062,"text":"所以我告訴分析,這樣我背點遊說我們黨團成員,這些人都是沒有遊說的。我們來講完結。我們才不來,輸準錯,我們再來視線。大家都同意。然後開完黨團會議的時候,我說我遊說完畢以後,你再打電話給我。"},{"start":2998.664,"end":2999.565,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3020.465,"end":3021.505,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3046.05,"end":3046.53,"text":"（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3068.877,"end":3070.618,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3087.418,"end":3106.227,"text":"好,那他們就開始下一秒鐘,因為我早就知道胡文綺和習近平還有國民黨有人在立法院出沒了。我們在晚上就看到你們在裡面出沒了。我就知道這些人略略風高,絕對不幹好事的。"},{"start":3108.988,"end":3128.323,"text":"所以他們下一秒鐘就馬上把兩個鐵門,一個鐵門拉下來,鎖起來。另外一個鐵門,他們全部進來。另外一個鐵門呢,用桌子擋住,阻卻民進黨人進入一場。一個天才叫徐曉清還用保鮮膜把門封起來,以為民進黨已經藏在裡面。"},{"start":3129.424,"end":3155.225,"text":"結果他們打開了那種扣成劑。這是那天場景。那場景裏面大家推舉造成的景象以及難看的場面電視都有在報。我想不必追溯了。於是乎我知道他們吵架。韓院長你都還不會忘記這禮拜一的事情。八點多我就打電話給韓院長。"},{"start":3157.327,"end":3183.124,"text":"今天這個憲法（那時候還沒九點五（今天這個憲法大家比較粗糙讀（然後你聽副委員的指揮（要下午排一個草委協商（草委協商排了很多法案（但是那時候排的法案還比較正常一點（從這個荷蘭公共條例開始（然後比較正常一點（然後老人福利法、作業福利法等等（"},{"start":3184.005,"end":3186.106,"text":"〔憲法訴訟法第三十條及財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案〕"},{"start":3206.998,"end":3227.428,"text":"請可以下午再來搞這一套。你聽我講,老闆娘,我承認你很迷你。對,這個好。我聽得懂。那你去跟副總召談一下。於是我馬上打電話,八點,八點多的時候,大概副總召,現在還在九雙餐手機。"},{"start":3228.942,"end":3229.582,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3257.301,"end":3278.124,"text":"我說那個不太影響吧。那就大家停下來協商就好了。我們既然要照程序來講,我已經將它拿回來。那我們開始發言,照程序來開會嘛。啊這個,我老朋友傅文綺又興起了他炒作股票的念頭。下一秒就通過了。"},{"start":3279.922,"end":3281.063,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3295.371,"end":3321.362,"text":"這樣一個培養力氣可以開花,這關會說的準正。啊另外,議會也是這樣。我今天下午還打電話跟我以前一個老朋友叫徐欣盈,他過去我們在新竹曾經跟我們合作過,還是老朋友。他是一個吃素的人,他也是妙天的,叫欠人為善。說徐欣盈,這樣會不會通?"},{"start":3323.283,"end":3325.845,"text":"三、研商（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":3353.722,"end":3363.032,"text":"所以後來,他們真的是這樣搞的時候,我很好意。我們所有黨團成員,非常生氣。吳士堯、代表黨團成員,這一場門口開記者會。"},{"start":3371.28,"end":3397.474,"text":"那是非常感動的一刻。因為我在辦公室裏面,胡志堯委員帶我們黨團成員所有人在議場上開會,表示嚴重的抗議。那我還好意的告訴我,馬上打電話給韓院長,這下他等一下去圍你喔,你要心理準備。我不是對你吵架,只要我跟他說一句就吵架了。"},{"start":3400.154,"end":3425.094,"text":"他們一似乎都到去找韓院長。那韓院長當然我打這個PASS他就敲頭了。我是好意啦。這個是不盡一餐。那一似乎他們要進入院長辦公室當然專來擋住。不能擅長沒有問題。"},{"start":3426.417,"end":3428.419,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":3450.336,"end":3453.057,"text":"發表一個嚴重的聲明給你（國民黨黨團提議（發第二份公文給你（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3469.144,"end":3485.837,"text":"立法院審查委員審查公正人選法法．發生國民黨委員主動其他委員．到內政交通兩樓的關係簽到．發生重大衝突．嚴重影響立法院出席．本院委員的出席．在審議不完備底下．再次表示嚴重抗議．研究今天下午．"},{"start":3487.518,"end":3501.811,"text":"兩年中黨團協商請藍營黨折旗再開。你說說這個事情不處理的話,你再談法案就沒有用。同時我們法文給議事處,而且雲貴親送。我們叫我們黨團幹部到認證委員會,給認證委員會。"},{"start":3509.438,"end":3534.899,"text":"嚴任委員會召委就是說你不可以違法再發,否則你是我們絕對輿重法辦的。公務人員行政必須行政中立,不只到憲法院,不是到法院你都可以告你。你行政不中立,我現在嚴明在先,你不可以這樣亂搞,而且附上我們校就要曹偉強來解決這個事情,請你不要發文。好。"},{"start":3535.96,"end":3536.941,"text":"結果呢?"},{"start":3536.941,"end":3537.742,"text":"結果呢?"},{"start":3537.742,"end":3548.092,"text":"我們一個偉大所謂的立法院的佛祀典陳明恩我是拍下老虎了。 從來我還何嘗不認識他呢?"},{"start":3548.092,"end":3549.012,"text":"他既然可以"},{"start":3550.851,"end":3569.76,"text":"命令,因為這個委員會要發文,這個委員法的秘書長非常嚴重,院長已經考慮要移除了。他所謂的這個委員中心主義,叫他們發文,他審查報告出來,我們今天早上果然收到了。"},{"start":3570.74,"end":3595.841,"text":"這是何其離譜啊!一個立法院秘書長可以公然違法什麼叫委員會中心主義所謂委員會中心主義就是說所有法案要在委員會裡面合法討論不可近乎二讀請中央來找一個所謂的委員會中心主義是可以委員會可以瞎搞的委員中心主義給我看看這根本棄絕法律同時"},{"start":3599.976,"end":3626.025,"text":"當時,禮拜二那天你到立法院的中庭,那個街外賓室去跟我們,因為大家圍起來不能離開嘛。後來你就到立法院,我們黨團在立法院中庭那個街外賓室那裡,去跟我們所有黨團成員協商嘛。阿吳世堯啊等等,你所有的幹部都在那裡等我,等到韓院長一起發。"},{"start":3627.606,"end":3654.036,"text":"結果你來的時候既然你講說這是委員中心主義你就跑了。院長你不要被作案來框了。這個怎麼叫委員中心主義。委員中心主義不是這樣解釋。你要依照立法院之間審查六十八條。我講給你聽。你所有的前景來源就在這裡,最重要的就重要。所以一個中立行政院長,包括王晉平院長以前都遂行這個。"},{"start":3655.95,"end":3675.831,"text":"也就是說,六八有什麼講,一案協商後,從五九分的時候,院長可以主動召集協商,令大家亂起來,不管委員會在哪裡亂起來的時候,我院長當然要來大家來講,協商大家好好的讓對立法院能評審。另外,"},{"start":3677.421,"end":3696.246,"text":"各黨團一個法院照理協商。所以這是很重要一個法律基礎就是之前《憲法》第六十八條。韓院長,你說前一陣子在這一條,而且我曾經跟你講過,我過去曾經罵你說歷史罪人,我真的可以很抱歉,但是那天我還在台上跟你講說,你可能"},{"start":3699.207,"end":3700.948,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3719.602,"end":3721.123,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3734.795,"end":3737.977,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3754.409,"end":3755.71,"text":"來（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3780.672,"end":3785.137,"text":"二、研商、「憲法訴訟法第三十三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。」等案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":3788.124,"end":3812.725,"text":"那這個東西要討論也有道理,你還不過格啊。所以我今天要講的就是說,我非常嚴肅,未來一個月是臺灣最深層的重能光劍。假如可以照藍白合起來,白的就不講,白的反正已經極速荒謬化。你們不想執政,我也同意。你這樣搞,連大法官事件出來你們都不認帳。"},{"start":3813.905,"end":3817.748,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":3833.55,"end":3849.315,"text":"你們竟然可以不認帳大法案實現,那也不想執政,要破壞民主體系。但是呢,為了台灣民主繼續往前走,這是我們永不可能退卻的責任。所以今天,"},{"start":3850.715,"end":3873.405,"text":"在這個事情還沒釐清以前,我還是講一句話,所有這些脫離行為只要可以的話,立法院關門。所以這些我要講的重點就是說,假如沒有廚藝沒辦法做,而且我先發文給你,我們法案的審、法案的協商也不必談、也談不下去。但是呢,我很清楚,傅文綺打了廚藝之後,今天晚上開會到十二點。"},{"start":3875.276,"end":3877.137,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":3899.327,"end":3901.948,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3921.696,"end":3923.596,"text":"條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3946.977,"end":3970.779,"text":"大家叫不來,我們全部發言完畢,表決書你算了,我們來實踐或者總統請你出問,可以。這是我們必須遵守原則。包括上次一樣嘛,上次國會擴展法案用這樣如此粗暴,尤其是然後其所表決。請問立法院還可以再這樣嗎?這樣的演出讓整個大法院釋出來,你們全部違憲。"},{"start":3974.262,"end":3983.49,"text":"國民黨得到什麼呢?難道這個教訓還不過嗎?所以重點禮拜五還有一個事情"},{"start":3984.591,"end":4009.22,"text":"我講副總召與韓院長包括今天沒有來的所謂那個黃國昌,禮拜五在後面本來政交法要通過,黃國昌反對嘛,後來黃國昌逼不得已再來簽了,說上禮拜五,說這個禮拜五要把他唸過去。欸,多少,人人這個也悔氣了,把他放到後面去了,放到後面的案子。"},{"start":4010.08,"end":4012.641,"text":"到底我們這條文修正草案是要做什麼（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4032.136,"end":4048.253,"text":"那個影響國民非常深遠。請不要兒戲好不好。讓他講清楚。所以一概照律師規則、照程序來,大概要公為勝為。那韓院長我很感謝你一句話。那天我跟你講的,禮拜天,禮拜一早上我跟你講說,欸這個"},{"start":4049.975,"end":4059.105,"text":"大家照一致規則來,那個副總裁突然耍詐,他說:「欸,董事長,你要跟副總裁講,你們大家都擋斷邊,講話要說話,你要跟我聽聽這一句吧。」"},{"start":4066.573,"end":4082.805,"text":"代表你還懂得這個道理。但是呢,付總裁他懂得這個道理嗎?他以為他和南白合作的時候,國會過半,整個台灣是他們掌控,OK,會轉動全世界的樣子。我要講最後一句話。"},{"start":4084.046,"end":4095.315,"text":"臺北沒有法聯網請你請下去。臺北是一個是一個當時必須看會是合一致的必須遵從議事規則來。臺北沒有法聯網你放心。我這關你記不記得。以上請你想一想好不好。"},{"start":4101.821,"end":4119.741,"text":"謝謝柯總召第一輪的發言請國民黨跟臺灣民眾黨團一輪發言準備但是就柯總召剛剛垂詢的部分我快速回答第一個像時間、房間我特別報告過去我們慣例都302跟802但是今天302是黃國昌委員屆802是羅美林委員屆所以我們不得已的要借到101"},{"start":4120.962,"end":4122.803,"text":"﹐國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4136.809,"end":4137.549,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4164.605,"end":4192.712,"text":"民眾誌第一一三零零一零三號（喊請協商院長是十二月十三號星期五五點下午五點十六分根正發文我們也通知三個黨團協商十二月十三號國民黨團再來一次協商這個來喊我們十二月十六號早上八點零二分再次根正發文並通知三個黨團協商在這裡跟各黨團報告一下請放心也相信我們原本不只要各位來"},{"start":4193.632,"end":4194.513,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4211.969,"end":4212.709,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":4227.498,"end":4227.898,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4259.289,"end":4259.469,"text":"請,國民黨團一輪發言請。"},{"start":4277.568,"end":4282.332,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":4295.945,"end":4322.077,"text":"雖然這一年來我們聽過很多次這三十年的故事run了很多次所以一講講半個小時剛好三十分鐘我們大家都有算了我也希望這三十分鐘未來的三十分鐘內不要有人來插嘴這基本的民主素養當然沒有民主素養的我們可以看清楚是哪一位啦好不好我要特別謝謝老柯啊這個從三十年欸欸欸你要去哪裡"},{"start":4323.527,"end":4325.148,"text":"國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":4353.12,"end":4353.841,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4381.383,"end":4408.018,"text":"所以你們大家看到了,現在我在發言,這個叫做民主紳士風度是這樣,我們大家也都看懂了。人民的眼睛是雪亮的,會清楚大家到底在朝野協商的時候到底在講什麼事情,特別明確一下。當然老柯也是中華民國國會的活字典,也真的是很不容易。"},{"start":4409.503,"end":4412.588,"text":"三十多年前,我看到從一個在野黨的陽春小立委﹖"},{"start":4413.875,"end":4415.055,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4442.842,"end":4446.766,"text":"我還是聽不懂到底哪一件事情是事實。"},{"start":4468.464,"end":4496.81,"text":"所以我們在這裡要特別剛好這麼多人來捧場我們就做一次講清楚到底是誰讓立法院的會開不成一笑國際大方是誰帶著黨團在進攻主席台讓會議沒有辦法開這個人民不是沒有看到"},{"start":4498.646,"end":4500.686,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4528.035,"end":4528.976,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":4548.766,"end":4571.774,"text":"我在這裡還是要特別強調不要每一件事情不是作賊喊久了喊作賊一直喊久了就可以飢飛塵世指鹿為馬到底誰在破壞議事規則到底誰在癱瘓議事到底誰不讓大家來開會我們在講民主社會你在這裡要怎麼表達都是尊重所有的溝通都尊重但是到最後"},{"start":4578.854,"end":4602.364,"text":"民主就是數人頭嘛,都是代表民意嘛。但民進黨在現在這裡都是比拳頭啊。這個就很奇怪的事情。二十一世紀的國會還有在比拳頭的。那不是在數人頭,每一個人都代表他的民意嘛。所以我在這裡要特別強調,我三十年前認識的老柯不是這樣子的。"},{"start":4603.718,"end":4626.813,"text":"現在練就了一身的武功,真的是不得了,一天到晚顛倒是非。所以剛剛講得真的很幽默,禮拜天我打電話給他,還好現在這個IPhone記錄得有夠久,他說禮拜五一直找我,都是柯建民都是洪志,禮拜五禮拜六一直找我,到禮拜天還在找我。"},{"start":4633.206,"end":4634.046,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":4653.104,"end":4681.582,"text":"現在我聽到老柯非常熱誠地講說,非常熱誠地說,非常熱誠地說,三十分鐘,不好意思,你講完三十分鐘,現在換我講三十分鐘。三十分鐘,我要特別表達,柯總統在電話裡面真的很熱誠,說是不是啊,我們可以,"},{"start":4682.745,"end":4710.705,"text":"明天九點來開會我聽了以後很感動我聽了很感動結果結果結果因為我們是禮拜五就已經發六點假動我想這個假動大家都在都很清楚六點鐘就發假動不是說禮拜天跟他講完以後發假動國民黨團所有連助理都知道我們就是六點假動但是一個重點禮拜天晚上接到這個電話以後"},{"start":4712.742,"end":4723.106,"text":"我非常感動,突然民進黨轉信了,說立法院可以開會了。我非常感動,只是他沒有替領而已。結果,到了九點多,哇,這個臉書就開始潑了,樹葉緋瀉,什麼東西都出來了。"},{"start":4737.922,"end":4764.622,"text":"結果黨內就開始炸鍋啦說啊他們已經禮拜天晚上就去排隊了怎麼樣然後那通電話我就主動問老柯我說欸現在是什麼狀況他說沒有沒有那個只是齁擺拍啦擺拍待會就沒有了所以我也在國民黨的大群組我也發"},{"start":4766.547,"end":4793.409,"text":"大家不要去雖然有幾位年輕的委員衝到立法院來但是我在大群組也有發大家不要過去就不要過去了禮拜一早上再來那大群組都有留文字都很清楚這個至少在禮拜天雙方都還是有誠意沒有誤判但是在禮拜一我們早上六點假凍因為啊"},{"start":4796.428,"end":4796.768,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨團提議"},{"start":4824.815,"end":4848.626,"text":"所以我們六點鐘到,要確認幾件事情。第一個,門可以打開。第二個,確定麥克風不要又被搶了還是被折斷了。因為每一次麥克風不是被拔斷了,就是丟到哪裡去,主席臺北弄的一套糊塗。這個都是大家在電視上一天到晚看的。民進黨是長夜慣犯。我們要確保禮拜一是可以開會的。"},{"start":4854.966,"end":4882.212,"text":"所以院長把麥克風我們才知道說那天麥克風還要等到人來開麥克風開箱才有麥克風結果再發現更誇張的一件事情這是2024年的中華民國國會啊既然說沒有筆電啊說不能開會沒辦法連線啊筆電裡面還必須要有程式我聽了更傻眼了"},{"start":4885.12,"end":4890.122,"text":"這就不曉得哪裡內政通了外鬼。國民黨團沒有人知道要筆電才能開會。哇!民進黨立委不得了啊!攔路打劫啊!把內政委員會的三台筆電都搶走了。他真的是不能開會了。真的沒有辦法開會了。我們還冒的從二樓跳下去。"},{"start":4914.121,"end":4916.322,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4942.722,"end":4943.182,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4968.357,"end":4970.238,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":4992.443,"end":4999.685,"text":"打電話（國民黨黨團提議（打給柯總召（打給柯總召（打給柯總召（打給柯總召（打給柯總召（打給柯總召（打給柯總召（打給柯總召（"},{"start":5019.725,"end":5022.188,"text":"在走廊的衝突是不是給他結束讓大家進來開會柯總召說"},{"start":5034.559,"end":5035.16,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5064.899,"end":5067.481,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨提議．國民黨黨提議．國民黨黨提議．"},{"start":5092.864,"end":5108.956,"text":"大家都不要有誰受到身體的傷害。所以,既然是這樣,因為老柯都已經沒有辦法promise說現在怎麼樣。所以呢,所以呢,所以呢,我們決議上個禮拜五,草野協商,我們請柯總召是不是能簽字,"},{"start":5122.557,"end":5125.593,"text":"大家能夠坐在座位上好好開會"},{"start":5127.486,"end":5128.107,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":5154.338,"end":5155.959,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5169.656,"end":5171.317,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":5198.24,"end":5223.642,"text":"再看看多少天前的內政委員會是怎麼樣?為什麼大家不能開會?為什麼換了會議室,議事人員還被禁錮在裡面不能出來?這是柯總商的荊軻玉立。只要你不寫完這個法案,立法院就不能開會。這真的是笑話。不過,我也了解今天啊,"},{"start":5227.003,"end":5254.483,"text":"對 這個昨 禮拜一在草野協商民進黨不管是文攻武嚇還是今天說實在我們都不是被嚇大的啦我還是要再講一次啦今天這個黃國昌黃總召沒有來大概知道說啊一個草野協商你不是提案的"},{"start":5255.959,"end":5277.629,"text":"委員或者是該委員會的召委是不可以在這裡的。從第一個會期,第一次召委協商就講到現在。結果柯總召在這裡呼風喚雨二十年。今天來召委協商鬧得大陣啦。這鬧不到啦。這不是審判法啦。這每一個都有關係的。每一個委員會的關係。是比人多的。"},{"start":5285.563,"end":5312.166,"text":"那院長啊,這種草案實際上還有它的意義嗎?全部都讓人難!當時早就長好的遊戲規則,每每破壞遊戲規則,就是柯總召!柯總召現在是立法院的神啊!立法院的神啊!你不是當王而已啊!你不是王而已啊!你是神啊!二十年的神啊!"},{"start":5313.215,"end":5313.716,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":5339.262,"end":5340.102,"text":"蘇嘉全院長在2016年"},{"start":5365.603,"end":5387.689,"text":"四月二十九號上午十點（在本院的議場宣布（這是民進黨選出來的院長（在議場宣布（為落實本院協商（今後議事交付協商（黨團務必召集（"},{"start":5393.137,"end":5415.772,"text":"如果黨團沒有召集、院會再不處理（是（是（黨團（召集協商後（無法達成共識（十一立法院職權歧視法七十一條之一項（規定處理交院會處理（所以（不管是（憲法訴訟法（還是財劃法（都已經經過（"},{"start":5424.184,"end":5427.937,"text":"出委員會之後都已經有"},{"start":5429.124,"end":5457.218,"text":"委會召集、委會召委召集各黨團草野協商（都已經記錄在案。﹏嗯,還有院長協商呢﹏今天﹏對不起﹏什麼對不起﹏二零一五年﹏民進黨的院長已經宣布了﹏宣布什麼﹏院會的決議﹏好﹏我們再一次的表達﹏還要經過委會的院長協商﹏等到柯建民當院長的時候﹏再來宣布新的案例﹏好﹏我們在這裡啊﹏再一次的表達﹏"},{"start":5461.175,"end":5462.135,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5487.898,"end":5489.579,"text":"已經委會．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5517.403,"end":5528.911,"text":"我們在十一月十五號提出了請求請協商、院長協商憲法訴訟法"},{"start":5545.265,"end":5562.555,"text":"十一月二十五號再次請求院長協商憲法訴訟法。然後在十三號再一次的請求院長協商憲法訴訟法。所以不要侮賴韓院長。不要侮賴韓院長。"},{"start":5567.137,"end":5570.559,"text":"韓院長是依照國民黨法十三號所再次的發文請協商的順序﹐法案的順序"},{"start":5578.769,"end":5592.184,"text":"依照請求的時間別來排序,這也是非常合理的。11月15號就敦請院長召集憲法訴訟法的協商。所以我們本黨在12月13號"},{"start":5599.625,"end":5599.865,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5625.718,"end":5626.138,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5652.403,"end":5656.724,"text":"已經完成了法定的程序（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":5682.472,"end":5702.289,"text":"國民黨沒有必要參加今天這樣的一個協商這就是沒有實質協商怎麼?要去跟習近平報告囉?要去跟習近平報告囉?是不是?要去跟習近平報告囉?你不要講話!你不要講話!"},{"start":5710.802,"end":5724.571,"text":"非常不好,但是我還是要問一下臺灣民眾黨他有一輪發言的機會,他要不要講話。我們程序一定要暫穩講。他講的多講的少或他不講話是他的權利,但他有這個權利。麥玉珍委員如果你要一輪發言請發言。"},{"start":5740.922,"end":5741.782,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5766.634,"end":5781.821,"text":"這樣的時間浪費在那邊,誰要負責?所有的官員他們來了,他們要不要領薪水?所有大家來的,要不要領薪水?這些政府的預算,人民的預算,誰來賠?所以這個是醫生規則嗎?這個是醫生規則嗎?我不懂,我只要問一下。因為內政委員要開會,所有在那邊,一半以上不是內政委員的。所以我們在裡面等。在那邊等。"},{"start":5795.487,"end":5800.028,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":5815.712,"end":5815.912,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5833.454,"end":5834.255,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":5854.665,"end":5855.846,"text":"﹐國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5882.748,"end":5883.068,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":5906.579,"end":5906.839,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5929.187,"end":5930.228,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":5952.751,"end":5981.621,"text":"蔓委員,看我的眼睛,你講話了嗎?謝謝你的發言,謝謝。我要講一句話了吧,鬼我講一句話。蔓委員,你剛剛說今天這個開會,蔓一貞委員,你看一下我今天這個開會這個氣氛啊,我們看到柯總召跟副總召前半場他們互相像瓊瑤的愛情小說,我認識你十二十年,後半場像金庸武俠小說,所以我在想,今天的氣氛是草野協商有史以來最差的一次。我特別要拜託大家。"},{"start":5983.371,"end":5985.233,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":6006.67,"end":6013.995,"text":"我希望你作為總理院長,我們就看你。我真的很總理。謝謝大家來參與。院長,你有答應我們要處理禮拜一,我們沒辦法進去開會的爭議欸。這個要先處理喔?對啊,你沒有處理,然後現在...你現在要總理的話,你先處理這個好不好?院長,你拜會有這樣在台灣說啊,你說要處理爭議啊。現在拜會你要給人家滾過去。你的衛府做倉欸。"},{"start":6035.117,"end":6038.859,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":6058.635,"end":6061.062,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨黨團提議（"},{"start":6076.716,"end":6078.136,"text":"國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（"},{"start":6101.983,"end":6120.077,"text":"三條及第四十三條條文修正草案。（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議"},{"start":6122.919,"end":6127.803,"text":"三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨團提議（三條及第四十五條條文修正草案。（國民黨團提議（"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2024121802","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"16386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16386","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc2d34adc683ae39a1b5c9260c967a502e78081dad70f87c46df9b752981be97f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-18T16:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」等案。二、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」等案。三、司法及法制、教育及文化兩委員會併案審查行政院函請審議「運動部組織法草案」等案。四、司法及法制、教育及文化兩委員會併案審查行政院函請審議「運動部全民運動署組織法草案」等案。五、司法及法制、教育及文化兩委員會併案審查行政院函請審議「國家運動產業發展中心設置條例草案」等案。六、司法及法制、教育及文化兩委員會併案審查行政院函請審議「國家運動訓練中心設置條例修正草案」等案。七、司法及法制、教育及文化兩委員會併案審查行政院函請審議「國家運動科學中心設置條例部分條文修正草案」等案。八、司法及法制、教育及文化兩委員會併案審查行政院函請審議「教育部組織法第二條、第五條及第九條條文修正草案」等案。(詳如附件)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-18","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-18T15:30:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-18T17:31:00+08:00","duration":7238,"影片長度":"02:00:38","委員發言時間":"15:30:22 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032.195,"text":"就司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審議委員徐富奎等十七人委員吳佩儀等二十一人委員林怡瑾等十九人委員鄭天才等十六人委員陳冠廷等十七人及委員范雲等十六人分免擬拒行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案等七案。那麼當時我們的協商是本案都支持沒有不同意見那請問今天的在場各位委員黨團代表是否同意這是運動部的部分"},{"start":3040.97,"end":3066.739,"text":"我們桌上有行政院組織法就是原來十四個部會增為十五個部會那增加一個運動部好請吳委員臺灣民眾黨沒有意見謝謝那麼請問國民黨政委員沒有意見好那我們照審查會審查結果通過我們協商決議就是照審查會結果通過當然當然當然我們這個一個一個來啊"},{"start":3072.076,"end":3073.518,"text":"行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案。"},{"start":3083.882,"end":3087.325,"text":"行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議行政院函請審議"},{"start":3106.161,"end":3125.56,"text":"行政院函請審議國家運動訓練中心設置條例修正草案等十三案、行政院函請審議國家運動科學中心設置條例部份條文修正草案等十三案以及行政院函請審議教育部組織法第二條、第五條及第九條條文修正草案"},{"start":3126.567,"end":3132.451,"text":"等十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":3155.968,"end":3183.326,"text":"以及委員業員之等十九人及委員徐曉新等十八人有關於國家運動產業發展中心設置條例草案提案以及委員徐曉新等十八人有關於國家運動訓練中心設置條例修正草案提案以及委員業員之等二十人及委員徐曉新等十八人有關於國家運動科學中心設置條例部分條文修正草案提案以及委員科政等十六人、委員徐曉新等十七人及台灣民眾黨"},{"start":3185.327,"end":3211.66,"text":"黨團有關於教育部組織法第二條、第五條及第九條條文修正草案提案近乎二讀並與相關提案併案協商。」以及在十二月十三日第十三日議院會再將委員張雅琳等十六人所提國家運動產業發展中心設置條例草案、國家運動訓練中心設置條例修正草案、國家運動科學中心設置條例部分條文修正草案提案,致委員會抽出近乎二讀與相關提案併案協商。"},{"start":3212.72,"end":3227.687,"text":"以上個案均於今日併案協商。」那麼請各黨團代表表示意見。我們就從主題三到主題八,一共有六個法律修正案。那麼請表示意見。來,政委員,請。要跟這個,趙偉。"},{"start":3243.17,"end":3264.796,"text":"部組織法及後面的這些組織法規本席提案,一開始如果你回憶一下,就是我有針對舉例子,舉例子比如說這個運動部組織法的第八條本席的條文"},{"start":3266.287,"end":3285.767,"text":"修正條文增加前項既用人員、既原住民身份者不得低於百分之二十。然後針對這個需要公務人員內用資格的,我也特別增加"},{"start":3287.038,"end":3303.57,"text":"這個前項委員、檢任、見任、委任、各官等委員及原住民身份者均不得低於百分之十本法所定禁用原住民比例現有顏額未達比例者是非原住民公務員出街後再行禁用補足。"},{"start":3304.571,"end":3307.373,"text":"三、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":3324.565,"end":3331.214,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":3340.854,"end":3369.375,"text":"原住民的運動人才非常非常的多,這個比例很高,所以這個無論是不需要任用資格的跟需要任用資格的都應該能夠有這樣的一個比例,至於比例是多少才是適當,這個是我上次也說大家可以討論,所以這個部分是不是也能夠請行政部門能夠同意,以上。"},{"start":3370.523,"end":3371.864,"text":"行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案。"},{"start":3389.597,"end":3392.699,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":3406.767,"end":3411.05,"text":"委員會審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":3427.602,"end":3429.323,"text":"行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案 等案"},{"start":3449.756,"end":3467.929,"text":"政委員提出我們原住民有很多優秀的運動員,我想這個大家都非常清楚,但是提出以公務人員各官等10%、聘用人員20%的比例來禁用原住民族一節,那麼我們"},{"start":3468.709,"end":3485.214,"text":"如果按照現在最新的在113年10月的這個原住民族人口總數佔我國人口總數是2.6%那北北基是1.9%那過去在規範的一些架構上我們看到就是如果說要把這個"},{"start":3487.164,"end":3503.597,"text":"部及全民署工作地點,非屬於原住民族區域,以及教育行政及經濟行政等現在的考試類科,近三年原住民特考都有入局不足的情況,如果這樣的規定可能將來"},{"start":3504.538,"end":3510.6,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":3526.946,"end":3546.871,"text":"所以這部分其實已經提供了原住民工作權益之保障。另外,組織法的體例裡面,如交通部的觀光署,目前也只規範為原住民族地區之機關預算原額含約用人員、技工工友等具有原住民身份者不得低於六分之一。"},{"start":3548.035,"end":3561.172,"text":"那所以這個未來運動部成立之後我們是希望說能夠透過資源的整合保障選手、教練等工作權益那麼來行訴運動全民化、全民化那將來會帶來更多的運動"},{"start":3563.655,"end":3592.711,"text":"工作的機會,比如說我們將來會成立很多的社區運動俱樂部那麼對於極限、海域、山林等多元運動的發展我們相信原住民運動選手將來都會非常有機會而且這個站在運動部的立場也會進行實質而有力的支持所以我們是期待說避免各族群在遠用比照以及橫頻的考慮就是說不要影響運動部及全民組織法通過的期程"},{"start":3593.251,"end":3595.535,"text":"行政院組織法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案 等案。」等案。"},{"start":3605.256,"end":3633.682,"text":"禁用,那麼我們會特別來積極提報原住民特考的職缺,那麼在具有相同資格條件及專業下,會優先來禁用原住民。」那麼也懇請說不要在組織法裡面就來訂定禁用原住民組的比例,就是說它以現行的法,這個我們對原住民的一個工作,譬如說特考這部分,事實上現在都還有不足而禁用的問題,那我早上也特別跟"},{"start":3634.002,"end":3637.685,"text":"組織法第三條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院組織法第三條條文修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第三條條"},{"start":3660.023,"end":3688.96,"text":"所有今天要通過的要審查的今天所有審查的這些機關未來這個設立的地方都不會在原住民族第七這是第一個第二個剛才次長特別提到原住民的人口只有百分之二點多沒有錯但是我們在"},{"start":3691.749,"end":3717.101,"text":"運動人才的體育人才的比例就非常非常的高我們就以這一次的這個棒球世界棒球賽二分之一是原住民二分之一是原住民所以這個部分這個是應該要列入列入這樣的一個比例"},{"start":3719.476,"end":3722.82,"text":"提議書回棄再查看當初我們在質詢審打的時候,部長是同意的。"},{"start":3735.117,"end":3746.947,"text":"部長同意納入所以你們再回去看這個議事錄所以這個部分請教育部我有講過比例可以討論"},{"start":3750.731,"end":3773.043,"text":"到底是要多少的比例可以討論,而不是全盤的否決。」以上。謝謝齁,那麼在行政機關代表回應之前齁,那也跟鄭天才委員做個意見交換啦,因為當時這個案的審查是我主持啦,那因為當場的情況,是因為鄭委員很懇切,大家都期待能夠早日通過,所以你也不堅持,所以該案"},{"start":3773.703,"end":3775.863,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":3796.508,"end":3824.145,"text":"法案照行政院提案通過後,他們會在實際的執行上去盡量貼近您的主張。」我提到的是法是按照行政院提案至於做法上會盡量的按照您的目標去邁進那因為如果當天部長是說願意接受你的提案那我們的委員審查就不會按照行政院提案通過了是因為部長是也是"},{"start":3825.643,"end":3848.146,"text":"遵照行政院的提案,但是他說未來在禁用人員的時候,會往你的期待去貼近。」好,那這個我們還是請張亮次長,他今天是代表部長來發言,請表示意見。好,我再來補充一下,謝謝。我們是可以說用附帶,像這個有沒有用決議,附帶決議的方式,就是說我們會盡力來輔佐啦,就是說有很多優秀的運動"},{"start":3849.207,"end":3850.549,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":3865.106,"end":3866.687,"text":"產業發展協商協商協商協商協商協商協商協商協商協商"},{"start":3890.623,"end":3898.306,"text":"行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案：一、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":3916.442,"end":3922.189,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":3932.901,"end":3937.203,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":3954.07,"end":3955.67,"text":"運動選手及運動的了解,我們知道有很多"},{"start":3977.725,"end":3979.126,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":3997.557,"end":3998.438,"text":"部及人員軍用的需要,積極提報原住民特稿的職缺。」"},{"start":4027.537,"end":4032.198,"text":"運動部監督三個行政法人,持續專財、專用、視財、視所的原則,也在具有相同資格、條件及專業下,優先禁用具有運動專業的原住民族人才,以落實多元族群和諧共享"},{"start":4053.717,"end":4058.186,"text":"和諧共榮的體育運動,重要台灣的願景。」這個我們來努力啦,好不好?"},{"start":4059.261,"end":4088.315,"text":"委員好 那麼鄭委員剛剛有提出是不是說我們在修法立法之後我們的因為立法理由也跟次長說明因為立法理由當天本來鄭委員就提出在委員會的時候表達但是由於行政院的提案裡面的立法說明好像是沒有辦法再附上去的啦所以是不是有其他方法來處理看看鄭委員有什麼高見第八條的附帶決議看能不能來寫"},{"start":4092.398,"end":4093.899,"text":"組織法第三條條文修正草案審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":4109.5,"end":4129.667,"text":"後面的署包括中心都一次的講就是不想拖延大家的時間所以顯然這個不論是教育部或是相關的機關顯然並沒有很重視所以如果你們應該去盤點"},{"start":4136.383,"end":4140.525,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4164.076,"end":4171.739,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4190.287,"end":4194.008,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":4215.878,"end":4242.944,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政"},{"start":4245.182,"end":4254.784,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4271.769,"end":4277.211,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4302.179,"end":4305.322,"text":"部組織法第三條條文修正草案 運動部組織法第三條條文修正草案"},{"start":4323.148,"end":4338.078,"text":"貴應運動發展多元化金融人才,得益聘用人員任用條例之規定聘用運動相關領域專業人員。」在行政院的提案說明當中,我們可以看到我們的會議資料的討論討97頁。"},{"start":4342.221,"end":4346.103,"text":"以及第九條本部各職稱之官等職等級原額另以編制表定之。」那行政院的提案說明就很簡短就在我們討論的第106頁的內容"},{"start":4360.009,"end":4361.09,"text":"委員會審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4379.864,"end":4395.072,"text":"提案內容我們以一個附帶決的方式來刻以行政機關在未來依法執行的時候要能夠體察我們立法者所期待的一個運用的方式。當然就是在條文的架構下"},{"start":4396.092,"end":4399.515,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":4416.046,"end":4416.987,"text":"做附帶決議的研擬"},{"start":4450.467,"end":4472.534,"text":"運動部未來將四業務及人員禁用需要,積極提報原住民特考職缺。」另外一個就是說我們運動部監督的三個行政法人也一樣會持續秉專才、專用、事才、事所的原則在具有相同資格條件及專業下優先禁用具運動專業之原住民組"},{"start":4473.714,"end":4487.841,"text":"有優先禁用原則及保障條款,將來遇到類似狀況,我們一定會優先運用原住民族人才,以落實多元族群和諧共融與體育運動創造台灣的願景。」"},{"start":4494.424,"end":4503.368,"text":"行政委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4514.212,"end":4532.754,"text":"第二段我講說在具有相同資格的條件跟專業下我們的三個法人也一樣會優先聘用原住民因為現在原住民運動比較強比如說你在奧運或者說在棒球你說十二強其實那些選手他們大概第一個他們一定會先去支棒球隊他們薪水比較高"},{"start":4533.835,"end":4536.536,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4554.145,"end":4559.088,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4577.659,"end":4583.441,"text":"三、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4596.287,"end":4600.268,"text":"部審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4616.325,"end":4635.522,"text":"好謝謝次長的說明那也跟兩位黨團代表的委員說明那因為我們今天處理方式我要再說明處理方式因為如果說我們沒有辦法在今天就這個這主題三到主題八大家在委員會非常積極共同促成通過的法案在今天的黨團協商完成的話那麼"},{"start":4636.621,"end":4638.663,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":4657.082,"end":4685.425,"text":"共識及結果 。」那我們都知道在未來的院會的表決當中如果是黨團協商能夠同意不需再經過院長、朝野協商因為走院長、朝野協商可能是沒有結論那沒有結論進入院會的表決就會受到其他議案的影響那如果今天我們能夠做成黨團協商不需交由院長進行朝野協商那包括待會如果同意的附帶決議我們就會排入院會當中"},{"start":4686.045,"end":4687.165,"text":"不及相關組織的成立。」"},{"start":4708.792,"end":4710.533,"text":"行政院組織法第三十九條條文修正草案》等案。"},{"start":4731.385,"end":4756.284,"text":"那我們就不帶院長另外召集朝野協商,就可以直接排入院會處理。那如果這個附帶決議不能代表委員不能達成共識,那我這邊就只能交付給院長做朝野協商。藉時能否在院會裡面順利處理,我沒有把握,那懇請的跟兩位委員、黨團代表做說明,也因應期盼,這是全民的共同希望。」好,那請政委員表示意見。"},{"start":4758.427,"end":4786.621,"text":"因為這個行政院組織法跟中央行政機關組織基準法都要協商嘛都要協商所以這個不差只剩下原住民的條款嘛只剩下原住民條款也是講一次而已啊到時候韓院長主持了所以也是講一次所以這個部分最重要的還是教育部要拿出誠意"},{"start":4791.698,"end":4807.843,"text":"這已經是奧運的選手,不會來這些地方了。我們很多的運動人才是從國小、國中、大學這樣一步一步上來。"},{"start":4809.5,"end":4816.307,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4830.014,"end":4836.099,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":4853.092,"end":4855.373,"text":"行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4880.106,"end":4882.188,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4896.002,"end":4899.784,"text":"行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案：一、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":4914.411,"end":4915.532,"text":"部及相關的組織修法 其實是"},{"start":4934.753,"end":4956.681,"text":"百分之九十九大家都是一致願意支持的。」那關心的政委員所關心的那第三十三條是屬於行政院組織基準法那個部分那個的確一定要走院長朝野協商的流程但是我們其他的部分如果今天能夠達成黨團協商的結論那未來在院會進行處理的時候"},{"start":4962.884,"end":4968.248,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4987.291,"end":4999.261,"text":"這個院長在主持的中央行政機關組織基準法還有行政院組織法的時候把其他下面的運動部以下"},{"start":5000.612,"end":5025.407,"text":"有本席提到的原住民條款的部分拿出來就不要再浪費那麼多的紙張了也不要浪費大家那麼多的時間就等於是其實就是兩個議題了交給函院長主持的就是兩個議題一個是中央行政機關組織基準法嘛第二個就是原住民條款就這樣兩個議題這樣的話就時間上"},{"start":5030.221,"end":5034.145,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":5044.181,"end":5066.039,"text":"那個不能談完之後,中央行政機關組織基準法談完之後,你才可以去通過這些,不能這個先通過啊。這個不能啊,一定要先通過那個中央行政機關組織基準法跟行政院組織法以下的才可以。所以也不會,這個也不能,跟一般的法案不太一樣啊。"},{"start":5066.9,"end":5068.882,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":5085.834,"end":5102.18,"text":"交、懲請院長進行朝野協商,那個是行政院組織法第二十九條,第三條。那麼另外呢,我們有關於中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條,那個部分,就會涉及到三級機關。"},{"start":5103.74,"end":5119.929,"text":"但是那個條文最後怎麼處理其實跟我們主題三到主題八有沒有設立全民運動署及其他相關的行政法人其實是沒有關聯的啦你是七十一個、七十五個"},{"start":5121.07,"end":5139.077,"text":"其實呢,就算按照既有的現行條文的七十個這些今天討論從主席三到主席八的這些所有的組織的相關法令規章都是沒有衝突的我想還是要釐清其實今天大家要理解我們行政院組織法第三條已經獲得一個"},{"start":5142.293,"end":5160.433,"text":"協商得到結論,就不用再交付院長進行朝野協商,未來在院會處理會非常的壞。」那麼接下來主題三到主題六,我們不去碰觸到主題二的中央行政機關組織法、組織基準法的那兩條,一樣按照現在的規劃,因為這裡面所有的都是從"},{"start":5161.636,"end":5188.231,"text":"全民運動署已降相關的行政法人等法規的成立。」那這個也還在既有的中央行政機關組織基準法原條文的七十個額度內是涵蓋的,是沒有問題的。但是如果我們黨團有覺得要趁此機會同時將行政機關、中央行政機關組織基準法的第二十九條、第三十九條同時把它增列七十一或七十五"},{"start":5189.437,"end":5204.409,"text":"那個令案跟現在的主題是並行不備的,那個地方就算修到七十一或七十五都不會影響到目前我們今天討論的全民運動署及相關行政法人組織的通過,因為這些都是在原"},{"start":5205.791,"end":5228.385,"text":"七十個三級機關的額度內並沒有影響。」容我在這樣的說明。那麼這樣的說明,政委員還是覺得希望將這些不受到中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條、第三十九條,現在我們剛剛可能要交付給院長進行朝野協商的部分,要跟他併加一起,那我想也是尊重委員的意見。但是我要說的,那個是不受影響的。"},{"start":5228.965,"end":5253.934,"text":"如果不跟那個案子並在一起朝野協商由院長來進行那麼未來在院會處理的時候就不會跟現在所有帶院長協商的這些爭議性的法案綁在一起做處理了我已經是再三的說明因為運動部為什麼張教司長也不放棄想要來爭取一個共識因為接下來走的路徑會不同我們本年度會期的定期會"},{"start":5255.094,"end":5260.571,"text":"是到十二月底。」那如果今天的協商可以獲知決意、同意、結論,這些"},{"start":5263.735,"end":5289.152,"text":"全面運動署已詳這相關的行政法人的組織這六個主題都可以達成朝野協商的結論我們不用再黨團協商結論不用再送交院長就不會跟現在那些爭議的法案綁在一起了我真的是跟政委員再次說明真的跟三十九條、二十九條、中央行政機關組織基準法無色啦現在我要處理,來,那個請政署長最後的"},{"start":5291.857,"end":5306.757,"text":"政委員我這邊真的是懇切的請求委員的支持因為其實我們的附帶決議其實可以達到委員的需求的理想那為什麼要這樣講的原因是我在體育界這將近二十年的參與"},{"start":5307.558,"end":5333.765,"text":"我們一直在講說我們往運動員要尋找工作、職壓輔導,那事實上非常非常的困難。為什麼?因為運動員大部分他們真正想做的是能夠成為職業選手,想要成為基層的教練。我們為什麼在這一次大力推動全民運動?就是希望整個改造我們台灣的運動環境。我們是透過全民運動組整個社區化之後,我們希望創造更多的教練的就業機會。"},{"start":5334.725,"end":5349.723,"text":"才能真正照顧到所有,當然不只是原住民吧,所有的體育科系出來的運動人才、多元人才都有就業機會。所以其實不是說不支持原住民去做體育的行政人員,而是這部分你當定下去,我們真的"},{"start":5350.323,"end":5354.445,"text":"行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．事由．司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":5379.468,"end":5405.73,"text":"我們最後齁,來,鄭委員。最後齁,這個要跟趙薇講齁,絕對是需要行政院組織法的前提是中央行政機關組織基準法要確定,然後行政院組織法也確定,下面的才可以,才可以審啊,在院會啊,就沒有錯吧,齁。"},{"start":5408.123,"end":5408.423,"text":"運動部運動部運動部"},{"start":5437.244,"end":5445.726,"text":"部組織法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案 提報行政院特考,運動部組織法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案 提報行政院特考,運動"},{"start":5465.838,"end":5478.546,"text":"部及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":5495.635,"end":5509.089,"text":"先讀那個那個兩個沒有通過你運動部組織法也不能我們不能通過也不能在宴會先通過啊這是事實啊好來這樣子啊鄭委員我分成三個部分啊首先您對於這個剛剛"},{"start":5511.191,"end":5534.702,"text":"部所提出來的附帶決議,我覺得您說得很有道理,也就是說它其實的句號它分成第一段跟第二段,它沒有切開。運動部及所屬行政機關,未來視業務及人員金融需要,積極提報原住民特考職缺,這是指運動部及所屬的行政機關。這個是第一條公務員,就是涵蓋你的一個第二個部分。"},{"start":5535.302,"end":5536.883,"text":"三、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":5560.293,"end":5561.734,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":5576.104,"end":5593.493,"text":"主題三到主題八我們不能達成協商共識就沒有結論。」那當然就是提請我們院長做朝野協商到時候會跟其他的朝野的爭議的法案併入到協商後在院會另行排案處理但是但是第三個部分就回應你說的"},{"start":5594.013,"end":5613.576,"text":"那如果我們這個附帶決議做成之後,那你所關心的中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條、第三十九條,雖然我還再強調一次,目前的現行法的七十個署是跟現在的主題三到六的包括全民運動署及所屬行政機關完全不衝突,完全可以容納進去。"},{"start":5614.637,"end":5617.379,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":5641.813,"end":5670.548,"text":"因為排案要表決還是由程序委員會排案那如果當屆時您認為中央行政機關組織基準法沒有經過草野協商沒有達成共識那麼這些不能夠一併交付院會進行二三度的處理那就在那個時候的排案把它排在一起那排案的順序可能就變成說先處理您所關心的中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及三十九條經過草野協商院長組織後草野有共識"},{"start":5671.368,"end":5674.93,"text":"部及其所屬相關的也過了,您所關心的增加三級機關為七十一個或七十五個的也過了,那個是可以的,但是我們今天可以先做這個處理。」"},{"start":5697.023,"end":5714.099,"text":"以後在排案的時候再滿足您希望的那個要求。」那我跟您提啦齁其實目前我們程序委員會的排案順序是由國民黨黨團在主導啦齁這怎麼排案的都是國民黨黨在主導所以這個案子如果我們今天朝野我們的黨團協商有共識"},{"start":5715.185,"end":5730.77,"text":"三、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行"},{"start":5732.21,"end":5758.969,"text":"附帶決議的部分第二我們今天先有黨團協商的結論讓他可以未來在院會進行二三讀的排案處理然後您所要求的部分那就交給院長朝野協商的時候再並中央行政機關組織基準法的協商結論在排案的二三讀處理後連同這些再去排案處理今天我們做成的決定不會決定他怎麼排案處理啦"},{"start":5762.087,"end":5785.726,"text":"正委員,這個行政院組織法跟中央行政機關組織...這真的是?行政院組織法第三條我們已經有協商結論了您講的是中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條、第三十九條啦這是兩個不一樣的,一個剛剛已經簽協商結論了要多一個不才可以"},{"start":5786.561,"end":5789.942,"text":"及所屬機關各年度提報原住民特考的職缺數不少於該年度提報各項考試職缺總數百分之十。"},{"start":5815.441,"end":5823.386,"text":"司法及法制委員會審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":5840.977,"end":5868.646,"text":"部及各所屬機關各年度提報10個原住民特考,一定要一個是在運動部裏面。你只有談行政那個公務人員的部分了,那不需要公務人員資格的部分呢?就所有的那個是我們原住民特考的職缺數裏面那個是需要公務人員資格的那個我謝謝你寫這樣但是對於我們更有更能夠進入的就是那個"},{"start":5870.452,"end":5887.04,"text":"部組織法第八條文修正草案第八條文修正草案第八條文修正草案第八條文修正草案第八條文修正草案第八條文修正草案第八條文修正草案第八條文修正草案第八條文修正草案"},{"start":5906.092,"end":5908.674,"text":"三、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":5923.067,"end":5948.862,"text":"我們就保留宋朝野協商了啦我想這樣好了啦我想今天大家已經這麼努力了大家的努力都看在眼裡了也都錄影了也都轉播了那我想鄭委員你所做的努力我們也肯定但是你這樣子堅持下去我是覺得我們並沒有辦法在本會期結束之前促成這個大家共同期望的事情好那個朝野協商就是這樣大家互相的體諒那你一直堅持我們附帶就也提出了"},{"start":5951.123,"end":5960.228,"text":"中央行政機關組織基準法第三十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案：一、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":5978.817,"end":5995.752,"text":"行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 通過之後,當然就要院會處理,那我們現在處理的所有的這些,都跟那二、三十三條無關,因為二十九條運動部要增加一個二級機關,十四變成十五,我們已經,大家已經達成共識了。」"},{"start":5996.833,"end":6025.271,"text":"三十九條的施行日期,大家有沒有不同意見?那您很在意的,您跟五委員、民眾黨黨所在意的三十三條,七十個三級機關要不要改成幾個?其實今天大家都同意那個可以,大家再去朝野協商。所以只有這樣的一個朝野協商需要去達成的三級機關的額數,我們因此反過來綁住了運動部要成立,行政院二級機關要增設為十五個,大家也沒有不同意見?"},{"start":6026.272,"end":6032.915,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":6056.647,"end":6061.749,"text":"行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：一、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":6077.253,"end":6106.123,"text":"行政院組織法通過下面一個案就是運動部組織法這個我都清楚啊這個我很清楚不會所以我才會說怎麼樣去簡化節省這個時間交給院長協商的時候不要很多資料第一個就中央行政機關組織基準法就是民眾黨的那個兩條條文一起討論然後就是原住民條款一張紙一起討論"},{"start":6107.591,"end":6110.073,"text":"三、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":6127.764,"end":6144.621,"text":"實質上的內容,我們今天要有結論的部分都不會跟那個七十五個三級機關有關,但是表決的時候由於民眾黨的提案的設計,它兩個條文放在一起,所以表決的時候一定是兩個條文一起表決,但是這兩個條文事實上"},{"start":6145.382,"end":6166.072,"text":"除了確認到七十五個之外,另外一個條文是大家都有共識的。」所以呢,在表決也會只是出現在七十五條的部分。那至於到時候是採用哪一個版本,朝野協商的時候,其實民眾黨的提案的三期行政機關的七十五個,是否要視為一個案的同時處理,在朝野協商院長的層級是一併可以處理的。"},{"start":6167.713,"end":6192.953,"text":"所以我只是說現在我們只希望說如果已經有共識有結論的部分不要再去勞煩院長去處理朝野協商了那如果您堅持說連今天的附帶決的內容都要院長朝野協商我們今天就不用討論了嘛我們今天所說的附帶決議可以形成今天的黨團協商的結論那麼院長未來在組織朝野協商的就是三級機關的額數那那是因為額數一定"},{"start":6193.593,"end":6220.819,"text":"未來在議案表決的時候民眾黨的提案是要一起表決還是藉此民眾黨可以同意用什麼方式去處理去彰顯他們七十五個三級行政機關的部分我都尊重但是今天那兩個附帶決議的目的是希望不用再提交給院長去進行朝野協商您剛剛還是希望那兩個附帶決議到院長的朝野協商沒有嘛那沒有就今天做成結論院長朝野協商就不會處理了就不用處理了啦好不好"},{"start":6223.097,"end":6241.886,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":6242.026,"end":6271.093,"text":"三十三條的三級機關的額數處理完的時候才有辦法在院會進行二、三組的處理嗎?這是事實那個是事實講的是事實但我要講的是實質上我們今天這些的內容都跟三、七十五個三級行政機關無關啦我只是表明這一點好不好那這兩個戶待決定如果您可以同意的話我們今天就可以有協商結論就省去了院長再去進行相關這些主題三到主題八的朝野協商啦可以嗎?"},{"start":6274.755,"end":6276.997,"text":"二、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":6286.788,"end":6309.691,"text":"我沒有特別意見,您覺得可以,我沒有意見。您堅持這樣的意見,這個附帶決定當然沒辦法成案啊,那沒有成案我們就不能有會議結論啊,當然就這樣子啊,對不對?您代表國民黨嘛,那您覺得這個附帶決定您不能接受,我們就宣布沒有結論嘛,那我就來宣讀了,好不好?"},{"start":6310.933,"end":6315.635,"text":"二、司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":6338.277,"end":6339.858,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":6361.735,"end":6387.663,"text":"我們聯席審查把這個黨團協商跑完因為今天那您認為那個附帶決議您要交給院長朝野協商沒有沒有沒有他們如果改好的話根本就不行啊這個你們修好了沒有是不是要再給我們政委員看一下因為我覺得我有一點失焦啊到底您所主張的條文你哪裡不滿意如果教育部可以給政委員看可以我們就把附帶決議嘛"},{"start":6390.247,"end":6392.488,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":6883.191,"end":6901.085,"text":"兩位黨團代表的委員,看起來我們最後峰迴路轉可以有結論,我們附帶一句大家看過沒問題我就宣讀,宣讀完我們拍個照,好不好?歷史時刻,全民因應其判,民眾黨團、國民黨團,我們共同促成,好不好?打字好的部分再請政委員過目。"},{"start":6916.637,"end":6941.287,"text":"部組織法及所屬行政機關行政法人草案附帶決議,運動部及其所屬行政機關未來將是業務及人員禁用需要積極提報原住民特考值缺,且運動部及其所屬行政機關各年度提報原住民特考值缺數不得少於該年度提報各項考試值缺總數百分之十。"},{"start":6943.147,"end":6969.158,"text":"部監督之三個行政法人亦持續秉持專財專用、私財私所之原則,在具相同資格條件及專業下,將優先禁用具運動專業之原住民族至運動部及其所屬行政機關之聘用人員部分,釋出聘用人員總數百分之五禁用原住民族,以落實多元族群和諧共融及體育運動壯大台灣之願景。"},{"start":6972.535,"end":6973.796,"text":"主題二"},{"start":6999.718,"end":7028.326,"text":"好,司法及法制委員會併案審查行政院、考試院函請審議中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九等六案以及二、委員魯明哲等十七人擬拒中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案案委員鄭天才等十九人擬拒中央行政機關組織基準法第三十三條條文修正草案案委員萬美玲等十八人擬拒中央行政機關組織基準法第三十三條條文修正草案案"},{"start":7028.866,"end":7056.686,"text":"委員林倩琦等二十一人擬拒中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及三十九條條文修正草案案。委員張雅琳等十六人擬拒中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案案。委員張志倫等十六人擬拒中央行政機關組織基準法第三十三條及三十九條條文修正草案。協商結論第三十三條保留送院會處理。其餘均照委員會審查結果通過。然後"},{"start":7059.52,"end":7084.732,"text":"主題三到主題八的協商結論運動部組織法草案等三十二案一、新增附帶決議一項如復見二、其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過二、運動部全民運動署組織法草案等十九案軍造委員審查會審查結果通過三、國家運動產業發展中心設置條例草案等十四案軍造審查會審查結果通過"},{"start":7086.437,"end":7108.833,"text":"四、國家運動訓練中心設置條例修正草案等十五案均照審查會審查結果通過。五、國家運動中科學中心設置條例部分條文修正草案等十六案均照審查會審查結果通過。六、教育部組織法第二條、第五條及第九條條文修正草案等二十二案均照審查會審查結果通過。"},{"start":7113.442,"end":7139.258,"text":"好,那麼稍待我們議事人員都已經完成了嗎?都簽名了,那今天我們拍個照好不好,今天的協商終於峰迴路轉,苦盡甘來大家努力不懈之下,終於將運動部及其所屬行政機關及行政法人都通過了,那麼本席就簽名了那個政委員這張你拿著,這個你的"},{"start":7197.426,"end":7212.518,"text":"感謝今天所有出列席的行政機關代表大家真的是大功告成非常感謝非常感謝大家也謝謝今天各黨團的代表委員的出席也提供保貴意見讓我們可以促成這樁美事那今天的會議到此我們就散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16385","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16385","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed2d34adc683ae39a141854146fdf8e2ad78081dad70f87c4670950c26d0ef12b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-18T14:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：討論「國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會運作要點」草案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-18","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-18T13:30:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-18T16:00:00+08:00","duration":8998,"影片長度":"02:29:58","委員發言時間":"13:30:02 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吳召偉一直堅持說這要經過院會 同意後 核定才可以"},{"start":2184.168,"end":2211.22,"text":"現在剛剛坐在主席位置上的黃總召說得很清楚啊請查照報告案啊所以是當下生效回到院會告知院會如此而已白紙黑字寫在這裡當天具有本委員會出席委員身份的王逸川委員當天被不當無法那個非法剝奪投票資格我要求啊吳釗偉啊"},{"start":2213.653,"end":2231.364,"text":"當天的臨時主席說明那個跟本委員會所有的委員說明一下剛剛議事人員請大家可以參看我們上個禮拜五在院會報告事項第99案"},{"start":2233.069,"end":2252.256,"text":"第99案上面的報告事項的內容是我剛剛已經唸過了那他們是依照民主進步黨立法院黨團含授文者立法院議事處民主進步黨立法院黨團含通知議事處"},{"start":2253.867,"end":2277.257,"text":"發文原推派柯建民委員改派王逸川委員擔任發文的日期是12月4號是12月4號這個是民主進步黨黨團發文給議事處要求改派人員的日期是12月4號那我們上一次由我們的吳宗憲委員擔任"},{"start":2280.68,"end":2291.978,"text":"主席所召開的第一次全體委員會的會議是12月2號我再把時間走說得清楚一點本院議事處"},{"start":2293.544,"end":2314.257,"text":"收到民主進步黨立院黨團函的日期是12月4號那一事處的同仁他們就依法把他列為院會的報告事項那報告事項結束了上個禮拜五針對的這一個報告事項沒有任何委員提出異議"},{"start":2316.141,"end":2327.802,"text":"沒有任何委員提出異議確認完了以後我們目前國家發展基金調查委員會我們的議事同仁在收到本院的議事處"},{"start":2329.609,"end":2344.427,"text":"來函民主進步黨黨團由柯建民委員改派為王毅川委員的函以後我們國家發展基金調查委員會的議事同仁就依照規定今天開會的時候我們發函"},{"start":2346.73,"end":2367.842,"text":"就是依照民主進步黨在12月4號發函給立法院議事處的函那改王玉川委員為民主進步黨黨團推派的委員所以我們今天的開會通知那也沒有發給柯建民委員而是發給王玉川委員那以上說明"},{"start":2369.736,"end":2397.733,"text":"請求發言來請鍾嘉賓委員請在主席位置上的黃總召根據立法院職權實施法46條之一調查委員會之成員由立法院各黨團依其在院會之息事比例推派之並得視實際情況與改派我們的例子法只有這麼清楚簡單明瞭說明了改派的權利是由黨團依實際情況改派"},{"start":2398.686,"end":2414.654,"text":"至於說何時發生效力其實剛剛的解釋不怪現在主席位置上的黃總召那都是議事人員自行的認知我們在現場議事現場已經提出來了是因為當時的臨時主席不受理"},{"start":2416.24,"end":2437.004,"text":"不受理今天我們很清楚知道議事規則當中對於現場議事狀況的處理哪些須以書面為之要多少連署具有完整的規定但是很抱歉例子法46條之一他只有寫明是實際情況予以改派予以改派的權力主體在於黨團當天民主進步黨黨團在現場就以實況發聲為由要求現場的臨時主席處理"},{"start":2445.785,"end":2450.892,"text":"主席引具錯誤的認知說這個需要院會來核定"},{"start":2451.991,"end":2477.9,"text":"不是查照這個可以很清楚的調錄音帶錄影帶都可以看得出來是因為這樣的關係否定了民主金不黨黨團依例執法46條之一依實際當下的情況當日下午2點15分王逸川委員已經具備了屬於行使立法委員職權的合格立法委員也是本黨的成員我們當下要求要予以更換而因為主席拒不受理"},{"start":2478.874,"end":2500.867,"text":"所以剛剛幫忙轉達議事人員宣布的那一段文章是因為在當天的錯誤處理之下民主金管黨團以補救的方式向院會來提出院會根本沒有核定準博的權利他只是事後被告知事後被告知民進黨黨團何時發出的函不影響到這個實際狀況生效的其"},{"start":2509.03,"end":2533.206,"text":"那既然不影響我們是實際狀況改派的期日只以事後的書面告知送交院會由議事出來湊理不影響到我們改派的效力所以我還是要要求當天擔任臨時主席的吳釗偉要為這樣的一個造成院會議事人員這樣的一個瑕疵進行說明"},{"start":2534.747,"end":2557.709,"text":"這嚴重的剝奪了包括王毅川委員的權利也剝奪了民主進步黨黨團根據例子法46條之一依實際情況改派調查委員會成員的權利那麼在這種前提之下當天由於王毅川委員不能夠依法來行使職權致使當日的推舉主席的票選沒有他的選票"},{"start":2559.736,"end":2582.257,"text":"這個選舉無效那更不用通提當日的其他的議事瑕疵當日的臨時主席在宣告投票截止日期時間之後借滿了沒有投票時間借滿都還沒有發出選票居然還可以事後過了投票原定的投票期程之後"},{"start":2583.783,"end":2611.585,"text":"再來開始重新延長投開票的時程這個完全違背了所有立法院的議事尤其關於人事的選舉必須事前告知不然我們開會通知發什麼意思的所以我請求啊由我們的吳昭偉當日的臨時主席為這兩點提出說明第一王逸川委員當日的行使職權的身份被不當的議事處理主席的錯誤沿用剝奪"},{"start":2613.627,"end":2626.924,"text":"應該如何補救?當日因此而產生的選舉瑕疵包括選舉投開票期程未依時間內事前公布這樣的一個選舉並無效力我們要求重新選舉以上"},{"start":2630.254,"end":2654.067,"text":"好,謝謝鍾嘉斌委員那在請莊委員發言以前莊委員你希望我先回覆還是您希望先發言我尊重您的意見我看還是我先講好好,請莊瑞雄委員這個黃國昌委員還有我們在場所有的委員我想有在場吳宗憲委員學法出身林思敏委員學法出身"},{"start":2655.488,"end":2668.599,"text":"黃國昌委員更不代言,其他很多在場都很多具備法學素養,大家都很清楚,什麼叫明顯而重大的一個瑕疵,我就來講,"},{"start":2671.656,"end":2694.804,"text":"立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會當初發文的日期是113年11月29號發文一百一十在備註裏面講得很清楚這一次要選舉本會的召集委員然後他的時間定在會議開始領票時起至下午三點為止"},{"start":2698.426,"end":2724.886,"text":"包含投票跟開票的時間這個書面開會通知講得非常的一個清楚我們第一次國發基金委員會在開會在選召委的時候你說否定到民進黨更換調查委員的理由是說調查委員會的成員按照黨團所提的書面文書那既然是按照書面文書的話那開會通知其實講得很清楚"},{"start":2726.719,"end":2748.11,"text":"現在坐在臺上在主持的黃國昌委員以這個召委這個主席的身份我認為就不適格了這個都可以好好的來做討論了這就法來論法也不涉及到人生的一個攻擊了怎麼說呢那我們發出來的開會通知的書面是連發票到開票"},{"start":2749.295,"end":2772.875,"text":"也就是說你的投票跟開票的時間到3點要去做一個截止我們選出召委的時間已經4點多了所以這個召委的選舉是不是應該比較前面你的資格到底符不符合如果說整個調查委員會要調查別人我們本身就有這麼重大的一個瑕疵那大家都把它當成沒有看見那無視重大瑕疵我們也不顧整個堅持繼續整個議程要繼續這樣搞下去"},{"start":2776.479,"end":2789.29,"text":"我提醒各位啊,大法官4至342號很明顯的指出,明顯重大瑕疵指不帶調查就可以發現的瑕疵也就貼在額頭上的我們今天開這個會議啊,這個會議主席啊我倒認為我們這個法學深厚的黃國昌委員啊,不適格之所以不適格的原因,不是他不懂"},{"start":2800.401,"end":2800.481,"text":"草案"},{"start":2820.761,"end":2848.068,"text":"11月29號發文出來的我們當天第一次的一個開會的時候那到底那個投票有沒有效這我想這個才是一個重點那當然身為國會議員我們王一川委員他本身具備這樣的一個身份那總不會到了今天以後當天在黨團裡面要去整個名單一個更換這是被容許的那我們現在事後再來看這件事情的話"},{"start":2849.368,"end":2871.878,"text":"這個很多值得探討啦但是我倒還是覺得政本清源還是要先討論一下釐清今天的會議主席到底是不是事格當天的選舉是不是明顯而重大的一個瑕疵我想請在場的委員就這一點好好地表達意見謝謝"},{"start":2874.538,"end":2888.71,"text":"非常感謝那個莊瑞雄委員那剛剛針對鍾嘉賓委員以及莊瑞雄委員所提出來的垂詢那有關於我的部分跟委員會的委員報告如下"},{"start":2890.091,"end":2905.613,"text":"我今天之所以會以主席的身份來發出會議通知是因為我收到了立法院議事處的通知他的通知是什麼呢?他的通知是說"},{"start":2907.213,"end":2936.092,"text":"本院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會在12月2號禮拜一舉行第一次全體委員會議選出黃委員國昌為該會召集委員請查照案這個案子在上個禮拜五我們立法院院會的時候已經在列在報告事項的第100案已經報告完畢了"},{"start":2937.352,"end":2953.998,"text":"那當天針對這一百案的報告事項報告給本院的院會那並沒有在場的任何委員來提出異議上個禮拜五針對這個一百案的報告事項確認"},{"start":2957.489,"end":2974.81,"text":"我們國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會在12月2號禮拜一舉行第一次全體委員會議那選出本人為召集委員這件事情並沒有任何委員提出異議那因此"},{"start":2975.831,"end":3000.499,"text":"我們目前這個調查委員會我們相關的議事同仁接到了院會接到了院會議事處這邊的來函了以後就通知我問我說那我們是不是這個禮拜要召開會議那我就依照議事同仁他們所給我的通知這個已經在院會"},{"start":3001.539,"end":3017.625,"text":"已經報告過不好意思那個專委員是不是可以先請我發言完畢因為你都沒有回答我的問題了不好意思我已經在回答你的問題重大瑕疵是不是當然無效嗎如果是明顯重大瑕疵的話上個禮拜五議員會的時候"},{"start":3019.085,"end":3034.557,"text":"各個黨團各個委員都有權力提出異議但我現在這個都不帶主張就是無效啦明顯的重大瑕疵就不得那是不是明顯重大瑕疵恐怕也不是莊瑞雄委員個人主張就算了嘛我現在是剛剛莊委員有垂詢"},{"start":3038.819,"end":3061.186,"text":"選舉到3點結果你4點才投票選出來這個叫做選舉有效是 我要跟莊委員說明的事情上個禮拜五在院會的時候如果莊瑞雄委員或民主進步黨的立院黨團對這件事情有異議的話你們有提出異議的權利但是按照我目前所收到上個禮拜五院會議事錄的整個過程"},{"start":3062.426,"end":3078.539,"text":"以及上個禮拜五在整個院會發生的狀況請容我再說明一次郭昌你這個講法就不對嘛你一個話講那麼多嘛就很簡單嘛明顯重大瑕疵不會因為沒有意義它自然而補正嘛哪有到3點還要結束這4點都選出來你都認為已經是合法的請容我再說明一次是不是明顯重大的瑕疵有沒有您剛剛所講的那個狀況"},{"start":3089.068,"end":3089.368,"text":"草案。．述"},{"start":3108.424,"end":3135.249,"text":"我必須要說明的事情你就沒有針對問題回答嘛這個是整個版本的這個地方啊您在發言的時候其實我蠻尊重您的我都沒有打斷您因為主席就有麥克風你愛怎麼發言你最佔優勢因為你沒有回答我的問題為什麼我們投票時間到3點就要結束書面我們表定就是這樣就像我們投票到4點結束你說我5點來了我還可以繼續投"},{"start":3137.284,"end":3144.153,"text":"不對吧不對吧你說認為說因為沒有意義這就自然就補正有天底下有這種明顯重大瑕疵可以自動補正的嗎"},{"start":3146.207,"end":3169.155,"text":"我要說明的事情因為你都沒說明你都沒說明你這一點都沒說明你沒有告訴各在場的委員說為什麼我們表定時間3點要投票跟開票結束而我們4點多才選出召委這樣叫做有算數那你告訴我說這不是我個人的論斷的斷定我個人認知來當標準是不是我個人認知會標準但是也要解釋一下"},{"start":3169.955,"end":3170.896,"text":"非常感謝莊瑞雄委員如同我剛剛跟"},{"start":3192.935,"end":3204.243,"text":"而我們委員會全體的委員所說明的內容一樣我今天之所以會坐在這個地方依照國家發展基金不當投資暨管理"},{"start":3205.589,"end":3222.285,"text":"私職調查委員會我今天之所以會發出會議通知召開這個會議是因為我收到了立法院議事處的來函在上個禮拜五的時候已經選出確認我是這個委員會的召集委員"},{"start":3223.126,"end":3243.685,"text":"我完全是按照院會結束了以後議事組他們的同仁的通知那我相信大家也可以信任我們立法院現在擔任這些委員擔任這個委員會相關的議事同仁他們都是按照議事程序在進行的"},{"start":3244.666,"end":3262.935,"text":"這件事情在院會報告確認完了以後我才發出今天的會議通知至於說莊瑞雄委員針對在第一次召集的時候在會議進行上面您個人意見的表達"},{"start":3263.976,"end":3282.512,"text":"我都尊重但我只是要很完整的跟大家說明今天這個委員會會發出這樣子的會議通知我們完全就是按照院會在報告事項99案100案確認完了以後那議事處的同仁聯絡了"},{"start":3284.914,"end":3305.323,"text":"聯絡了我們這個委員會的議事同仁那議事同仁依照接到院會的通知分別發出了相關的事項所以我們今天才會召開這樣子的委員會那以上做說明好來有請鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":3307.508,"end":3321.936,"text":"謝謝在主席位置上的黃總召其實剛剛本席對於本委員會所提出的詢問當然因為在主席位置上是黃總召但是本席是要求當日擔任臨時主席的吳釗偉來做說明那麼剛剛黃總召的說明顯然有一點誤會我們的議事錄的確認是當下宣達吳不同意見後才確認"},{"start":3337.499,"end":3355.96,"text":"確認議事錄是經過無意後才能確認確認效力向後發生但是我們院會的查照案如果說送到院會的時候有不同意見就由院會取代當時送來的查照的內容重新去認定"},{"start":3356.926,"end":3372.852,"text":"但是如果送到院會的查照案在一開始就有在這之前已經發生的事實瑕疵跟無效不會因為院會沒有人提出異議透過查到的程序就讓他變成合法簡單講王逸川委員他的身份由民進黨黨團改派為國發基金調查委員會的委員這個事實在12月"},{"start":3386.724,"end":3404.897,"text":"的2號當日下午2點15分由民進黨黨員提出後即生效至於在院會的報告案查照的時候報告事項的查照案沒有人異議那麼他本來就生效的效力沒有被推翻"},{"start":3405.888,"end":3432.363,"text":"所以王逸川委員他經民進黨黨團改派為國發基金調查委員會的委員早在12月2號下午2點15分就生效了也沒有在事後的查召案當中被院會重新來認定改變但是12月2號的召委選舉開會通知發出的時間是到下午3點"},{"start":3433.915,"end":3458.176,"text":"結果當日的臨時主席吳宗憲委員宣布的時候是在下午的4點多4點多才宣布這個選舉的結果這樣的一個無效的選舉的事實至此無效的事實不可能在報告事項上的查照過程院會沒有人異議就因此而可以得到更正可以得到重新確認 沒有"},{"start":3459.312,"end":3473.342,"text":"你可以把原來合法生效的事項透過異議重新再做調查變更資原來就無效非法的事項不可能因為在院會的報告查到的時候沒有異議就可以再次得到確認我想這一點剛剛議事的說明"},{"start":3477.224,"end":3497.155,"text":"顯然對於查照報告事項的查照有誤而且還錯誤的引用了藝學上當中藝術錄的宣讀當中那個宣讀的確認要知道藝術錄的效力必須在第二次下次會的報告事項宣讀無意義之後才能得到確認"},{"start":3499.239,"end":3511.623,"text":"議事錄的效力不是在當議事人員該次會結束後書寫完成、寫在會議通知、發出為會議資料就有效力,沒有!必須在下次會議的報告事項應在場處理、無異議確認後,他才使證效力。"},{"start":3516.725,"end":3540.561,"text":"這個跟我們院會的報告事項的查召案是不一樣的我再次強調查召的意思是他發生當下就已經具備效力了除非經過事後的有異議重新處理才能變更那麼一個無效在12月2號下午4點多才發生的選舉無效選舉不可能因為事後的院會因為查召案沒有人異議"},{"start":3541.437,"end":3568.217,"text":"就能夠改變它非法無效的事實那這一點呢不是針對目前在主席位置上的黃總召我針對的是目前在我面前對面的吳宗憲吳昭偉他是當日的臨時主席當日的議事人員專門委員跟主秘都在現在主席位的兩旁當時還要要求臨時主席還要求法治局來做說明還要求議事處來做說明"},{"start":3570.118,"end":3593.223,"text":"顯然的連議事處跟法治局的角色都沒有辦法認清當天的議事處理有沒有合乎議事常規很清楚當日的選舉有沒有逾越了原來事前開會通知所定有效的投票的截止日期如果今天當天的選舉是有效的那中華民國的選舉可怕啦我面對選舉投票到下午4點截止啊"},{"start":3594.926,"end":3601.811,"text":"那超過4年以後的投票有沒有算數?好像有這樣的例外唷有一次公投並大選"},{"start":3603.635,"end":3630.695,"text":"在2018年在臺北市市長的選舉當中因為公投綁大選臺北市的市民很多都在超過了下午4點之後才能夠進入投開票所的圈票欄進行投票但是因為由於我國的選罷法他的取得投票的權利是以在下午4點前進入了投開票所"},{"start":3631.621,"end":3640.448,"text":"在過去實務上認定你縱使沒有進入投開票所你只要進入了投開票所等候排隊的隊伍的隊尾有接上去"},{"start":3641.363,"end":3666.704,"text":"那麼在4點前你抵達那個位置你就可以有權利取得投票直到不管天荒地老你依序排隊到投票取票然後呢完成圈票投票完畢縱使那時候到了晚上7、8點投票是有效的但是沒有哪一個選委會敢宣布他可以禁制將投開票截止時間從4點延後到半夜12點"},{"start":3668.021,"end":3689.472,"text":"我們現在面前當日在作為臨時主席的吳釗偉他居然可以在大辣的當天下午4點多的時候無視於開會通知上所明定的投票截止日時間他就盡致宣告4點多的投開票是有效的而不要忘了當日的開會通知上的議程是在臨時主席上台後當場確認的"},{"start":3697.328,"end":3709.938,"text":"該次的議程該日的議程雖然是由議事人員事前發出但是上面寫的寫的有廢話就拿出來講啦在底下才講廢話啦現在就要講你啦"},{"start":3712.646,"end":3738.474,"text":"當時我們當時的議程當日的議程只有一項本席有當場質疑就是當日的議程當中除了選舉事項之外居然還有討論事項去討論今天我們要討論的運作要點由於本席在當日的質疑當日的臨時主席跟議事人員有接納所以當日的討論事項當中運作要點的草案的討論從討論事項被"},{"start":3741.161,"end":3767.174,"text":"三除因為那個討論事項不是當日臨時主席所宣讀的議事日程所能確認的當日臨時主席吳宗憲召委所宣讀的當日的議程就是議事人員事前發出的開會通知上所列的就是選舉事項而這個選舉事項的起息時間都寫得很清楚而且那樣的一個起息時間的議程也是當下在臨時主席的組織之下當場確認的"},{"start":3769.391,"end":3775.293,"text":"當日主席也沒有經過在時間內經過變更的方式做合法的變更"},{"start":3776.058,"end":3801.236,"text":"所以當日的投票逾越了當日確認的議程的時間當然無效這個選舉無效不會因為現在坐在主席位置上的黃總召因為他是拿到了議事處給他的開會通知他當然不能判斷因為是議事處給他的會議通知上告訴他他是選出來的主席選出來的召委這個不能怪他因為"},{"start":3801.957,"end":3825.155,"text":"他不是那一天破壞選舉否定王逸川委員合法參與身份的始作俑者而當日的始作俑者包括現在在我們面前當日的臨時主席吳仲憲吳昭偉以及錯誤詢問的法治局的相關的主管以及我們議事處的議事人員這個部分一定要追究一個無效的選舉不可能在今天"},{"start":3826.141,"end":3840.547,"text":"被肯認一個民進黨合法有效依照立法院職權條46條之一依實況改派的王逸川委員為本委員會調查委員會委員的身份不可能在事後由院會的查照案"},{"start":3842.505,"end":3865.412,"text":"來定定他的生效時間點他在12月2號下午2點15分民進黨黨團依例之法46條之一提出改派就已經發生院會事後不管會議紀錄何時送達都是在當下就發生不是在查招案無意義之後才發生從不有能力就反駁"},{"start":3868.679,"end":3895.939,"text":"好,謝謝鍾嘉斌委員那針對鍾嘉斌委員剛剛垂詢的事項在說明如下第一個在上個禮拜五我們在院會裡面所處理的國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會的委員民主進步黨黨團改派王逸川委員擔任的這件事情請容我說明一下"},{"start":3897.281,"end":3915.244,"text":"民主進步黨立院黨團發文給議事處發文的日期是12月4號是12月4號在這整個發文的過程跟內容當中我完整的跟大家唸出來因為這個其實立法院公報裡面都有"},{"start":3916.516,"end":3924.504,"text":"1.依據113年11月25日台立院議制第1130704170號函本黨團前逾113年11月27日名利十一之二明制第166號函提交推派名單說明了"},{"start":3942.28,"end":3964.379,"text":"當初民進黨立院黨團提出這個委員會委員的名單是在11月27日第二點原推派委員柯建民為國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會委員改派王逸川委員擔任這個是在說明的第二點"},{"start":3965.66,"end":3993.608,"text":"沒有其他的內容了沒有其他的內容了因為我們目前完全看到的是我們的立法院的院會在報告事項當中忠實的把民主進步黨立院黨團在113年12月4號發函給我們的議事處的內容我剛剛已經清楚的把它給唸出來了在這裡面的內容"},{"start":3994.761,"end":4011.593,"text":"不管是從主旨還是說明民主進步黨立法院黨團所發給議事處的函沒有一點是主張說在12月2號下午幾點的時候當我們這個委員會第一次會議已經開始"},{"start":4014.215,"end":4036.034,"text":"已經開始會議了之後照會議進行到一半要改推派委員那個時候發聲效力這一點的主張在12月4號民主進步黨立院黨團發函給院會發函給我們議事處的內容當中完全沒有提及完全沒有提及那因此"},{"start":4036.815,"end":4058.194,"text":"因此,立法院的議事處依照民主進步黨立院黨團在12月4號所發的這個函也通知了院會,院會把它列入報告事項那我收到了這樣子的通知以後那我就依照民主進步黨立院黨團的這個函"},{"start":4060.756,"end":4066.105,"text":"來發出了今天的會議通知這個是第一點我必須要做的說明至於說"},{"start":4068.499,"end":4096.762,"text":"就第一次在整個選舉的過程當中分分擾擾每一個委員有每一個委員的意見每一個委員有每一個委員的主張那我基本上都是尊重我們上次第一次會議的時候我們的五委員中線他召開會議整個進行的程序因為我現在手上看到的那一天"},{"start":4097.583,"end":4105.729,"text":"在整個會議的過程當中的整個議事程序上面的逐字稿就是說當"},{"start":4110.515,"end":4132.666,"text":"主席宣告說我們現在3點42分是不是說要開始來進行投票一個小時的時候那那個時候中委員嘉賓我現在手上拿到的逐字稿是要求主席定明確的時間好不好"},{"start":4133.895,"end":4153.532,"text":"那個時候中委員嘉賓是要求當時第一次會議的主席吳宗憲委員就投票的時間我現在念逐字稿是你定明確的時間好不好那主席那個時候回應中委員嘉賓他回應的方式是說對"},{"start":4155.914,"end":4171.193,"text":"就4點42分就4點42分那這個時候呢 中委員嘉賓他進一步主張說那5點嘛好不好就定5點嘛就不會有意見嘛"},{"start":4172.394,"end":4187.322,"text":"這是中委員嘉賓那一天發言的內容所以從上次會議的議事錄針對有關於投票時間的這件事情在場的委員大家的確都有發表看法"},{"start":4190.003,"end":4211.944,"text":"那包括剛剛針對有關於投票時間提出他問題的中委員嘉賓我現在並沒有意思要幫吳委員中線去回答上一次會議針對他在認定上面效力的問題因為認定效力上面的問題我剛剛已經說明了"},{"start":4212.685,"end":4226.275,"text":"今天我以主席的身份來發會議通知來召集這一場會議完全是依照院會議事處的人員發給我的函來進行的"},{"start":4226.854,"end":4243.822,"text":"那至於說要回溯上次第一次會議整個會議的實況那我剛剛跟大家所報告的是當上一次的主席說要定投票的時間的時候大家針對投票的時間要怎麼定"},{"start":4244.542,"end":4271.687,"text":"的確有不一樣的看法因為主席本來是說3點40到4點40然後又有委員說那你說一個小時現在42分了是不是就到42分那中委員嘉賓也有主張說是不是就直接到5點就定5點嘛就不會有意見所以上一次在選舉的時間上大家的確是有不一樣的看法"},{"start":4272.327,"end":4296.768,"text":"那不過主席最後就做了宣告從那個時候3點42分一個小時到4點42分那那個時候主席做了這樣子的宣告以後就進行這樣的投票程序那我相信到最後的結果我們的議事同仁也是很辛苦把這樣子的結果報給院會才會在院會裡面向整個院會來進行報告"},{"start":4298.57,"end":4322.395,"text":"那我想我就整個程序做這樣子的說明那至於說那個因為在我們現在目前的議事規則上啦倒還沒有一個委員對另外一個委員提出諮詢或是詢問這樣子的程序我先請教一下那個我們議事同仁應該是沒有這樣的程序吧沒有人可以發言"},{"start":4329.206,"end":4352.872,"text":"所以我必須要尊重就是說剛剛中委員嘉賓有提出這樣子的請求因為在議事程序上真的沒這個程序我沒有辦法說要求或是強迫我們的吳宗憲委員要去回答中嘉賓委員的問題但是只是說"},{"start":4355.72,"end":4375.731,"text":"其他的委員,因為那個中委員剛剛就他要詢問的事項他也詢問了那我也依照院會給我所有的議事文書我大概提出了說明那不曉得其他的委員還有沒有什麼意見好來我們接下來請那個沈博洋委員"},{"start":4378.393,"end":4395.544,"text":"我覺得這件事情我最不懂的地方就是說一開始我們按照議事規則然後呢把這個柯建民委員換成王逸川委員然後只要過了以後3點以前可以投票投票完之後你們要選誰召委基本上結果也不會改變"},{"start":4396.525,"end":4418.455,"text":"就是從頭到尾只要按照原來的程序走其實結果也沒有太大的差別那為什麼不能按照那一個程序走這是我最大的一個疑問那我還是要再講一下我們是在這一個會議根本就還沒有開始之前就已經去跟議事人員講說柯建民我要換成王一川委員"},{"start":4419.415,"end":4445.621,"text":"是他們跟我們講說直接在會議上講的直接在會議上提出然後會議上也提出了一個書面給了當時的臨時主席說要換而那時候王一川委員已經是委員了所以這個照理說我們的程序該做的都做了那做了以後其實對後來的投票不會有任何的影響我們的票數也還是都一樣我覺得按照原來的程序走並沒有那麼困難"},{"start":4446.961,"end":4470.123,"text":"更不要講說剛剛這個黃委員一直在講說是因為議事規則然後選這一天我還是要講像今天我們是12月16號就禮拜一收到這個會議通知然後今天開會我也老實講全台灣都知道現在就是在審前間預算就像隔壁是所有的攝影機現在都在隔壁我跟王逸川是國防外交的委員"},{"start":4471.384,"end":4486.553,"text":"當然也不是說不能開這個時間,但如果今天我們真的因為這樣,前進的預算又那麼的重要,是不是有可能就必須要改派別的委員來做?如果要等到全部的按照剛剛講的那一種方式的話,那請問要怎麼解決現在的難題嗎?"},{"start":4488.254,"end":4513.801,"text":"所以這是一個很簡單的問題然後也沒有很難解決就是我們只要按照程序走然後再選然後選完了之後其實你們要的也都還是有啊這不會有任何的差別嘛投票時間也是當時堅持說一定要按照書面上的資料說書面上就是柯建民委員沒有王逸川所以就是不可以那書面就是寫投票到3點啊"},{"start":4514.901,"end":4536.456,"text":"投票上面寫到3點跟中交備委員講了什麼話跟吳思耀委員講了什麼話沒有關係啊他也不是投票表決的決定啊所以如果說這個樣子上面就是寫到3點結果我們到4點多才完成投票這個程序上自始就是一個有問題的程序嘛"},{"start":4537.386,"end":4553.656,"text":"那因此呢我們還是要主張這個會議本身是一個無效的會議但是我們可以來做補正嘛我們可以重新來過嘛重新來過其實就是都跟其實當天只要重新來過就好了根本也不用到現在重新來過結果也還是都會一樣謝謝"},{"start":4557.663,"end":4580.836,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員的發言那針對剛剛沈委員所垂詢的事項我説明一下第一個事情是說因為我們國發基金調查委員會在發開會通知的時候我們真的並不知道其他的委員會在這個時間點各自有什麼樣子的會議程序要進行所以"},{"start":4581.776,"end":4595.329,"text":"我們沒有辦法,真的沒有辦法去一一的委員會去探詢說其他委員會要做什麼樣子的事這個第一點先說明那第二點的事情是說在本院各個黨團"},{"start":4596.61,"end":4617.229,"text":"他們針對委員改推派程序的這件事情也不是由我個人來加以決定的改推派的事情我完全就是按照我們整個院會議事處他們所建立的規範跟他們所建立的程序來加以進行這是第二點說明"},{"start":4618.15,"end":4635.689,"text":"第3點說明因為目前我們立法院的議事處收到民主進步黨立院黨團的函是在12月4號的時候所收到的這個函那這個函呢裡面兩點的說明我剛剛也跟大家說明過了"},{"start":4636.59,"end":4652.445,"text":"民主進步黨發給我們立法院議事處的函第一點是說他們本來在11月27號有提交推派的名單那第二點說他們希望推派柯建民委員把他改派為王逸川委員擔任"},{"start":4653.766,"end":4671.513,"text":"這個函就只有這兩點說明那至於說剛剛民進黨委員所提到說他們之前跟議事委員說什麼那議事委員又說什麼那民進黨主張什麼時候改派生肖在這個函裡面一個字都沒有提"},{"start":4672.133,"end":4691.892,"text":"一個字都沒有提那因此我們立法院議事處的同仁就依照院會裡面列入報告事項民主進步黨所發的這個函收到了通知了以後那所以我們就今天開會的通知也發給了王逸川委員"},{"start":4694.073,"end":4711.12,"text":"上次第一次開會的時候在程序上面的事項各個委員或許有個人不同的看法或是意見的表達只不過我還是要必須忠實的反應那一天在開會的時候"},{"start":4714.441,"end":4733.099,"text":"當天會議的主席吳宗憲委員可以說是非常尊重在場委員所表示各式各樣的一個看法那結果那一天在開會的時候我剛剛唸的這不是我編造的內容是那一天委員會開的"},{"start":4734.46,"end":4759.31,"text":"逐字稿那時候委員有主張說是不是不要4點42分我們到5點5點比較明確延到5點這樣子就好了我相信每個委員在委員會裡面所做的意見立場的表達在立法院的公報當中都有白紙黑字清楚的載明"},{"start":4760.51,"end":4761.612,"text":"最重要的事情是什麼?"},{"start":4769.827,"end":4787.505,"text":"可以嗎?可不可以?不好意思主席還在發言請你把你的麥克風給消掉,謝謝那最重要的事情是什麼?最重要的事情我在跟全體的委員報告我真的是完全收到議事處的通知上個禮拜五我們這個委員會選召集委員"},{"start":4793.22,"end":4822.21,"text":"的事情報告到院會當中了上個禮拜五的院會沒有任何的委員主張這個報告事項的內容虛偽不實也沒有任何的委員主張上一次委員會開會在選召委的程序有任何的瑕疵因為沒有任何的異議也沒有任何其他不一樣的見解所以我就收到議事處的通知那請我們的議事同仁"},{"start":4823.11,"end":4848.686,"text":"發了開會通知發了開會通知給所有的委員召集了今天這樣子的會議那以上先做剛剛會議有提到的事情我想我再做第三輪再做第三輪的說明那現在那個因為那個還有委員剛剛好像是鍾嘉賓委員先舉手嘛"},{"start":4849.326,"end":4859.762,"text":"那所以是不是可以林委員您是不是同意讓中委員先因為我先跟大家報告一下啦因為我覺得如果時間許可的話那大家就"},{"start":4861.294,"end":4861.394,"text":"主席"},{"start":4884.985,"end":4902.605,"text":"我們的目前接到開會通知是定的時間下午2點到5點30分,時間相當充裕可不可以請會務人員把這一張當時院會通過的這是由民眾黨的修正動議的決議印給大家好不好,這是第一個,拜託一下有沒有會務人員可以幫我們印一下,印給每個人,可以嗎?第二個,其實我非常"},{"start":4907.196,"end":4931.046,"text":"同情剛剛在主席位置上的黃總召的發言那說了3次真的很無辜也很無奈因為呢他完全不是針對在12月2號當日臨時主席吳宗憲召委所做的決定之下他去為今天主席職責的接任他完全是應到議事人員議事處發出的通知我完全可以理解可以接受但是也不需要講到3次"},{"start":4931.994,"end":4939.722,"text":"但是呢 第三個但是我覺得剛剛黃總召的發言讓我覺得很有趣啊他不斷的提了兩次"},{"start":4941.537,"end":4970.476,"text":"12月2日他以一個公報逐字稿還不是公報逐字稿喔說我在過了原定議程3點之後的時間我跟臨時主席吳宗憲的對話說我們來討論要投開票截止時間的討論可不可以他把這個作為該日投票有效時間變更延長的一個有效依據如果當天臨時主席跟現場委員的對話在逐字稿當中呈現的"},{"start":4971.196,"end":4995.167,"text":"都可以作為依據那為什麼當日民進黨黨團根據立法院職權刑事法46條之一因為實際狀況改派王逸川委員來取代柯建民委員作為國發基金調查委員的委員當天不只是有發言還有書面提出是主席拒絕接受是林志主席吳宗憲拒絕接受我們是書面送達"},{"start":4997.947,"end":5014.892,"text":"委員之間的對話的逐字記錄,就可以作為非法議事變更的依據而根據例子法46條之一所提出的黨團所要求的書面更換,卻可以置之不理如果再用剛才的例子來說,如果今天投開票時間到下午4點為止"},{"start":5016.38,"end":5031.91,"text":"有人趕到現場跟投票主任說我現在4點半了你讓我投票我們大家投到5點半好不好投票主任說好這個來趕來的人說嗯哼喔被記錄下來有現場的警察為證那麼這個人就可以進入投票所投票嗎是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":5034.721,"end":5051.096,"text":"一件一個事前公布的議程可以當作依據當日臨時主席沒有經過會眾同意徵詢就這樣的一個對話就決定了那真好啊那為什麼改派要經過院會的送達"},{"start":5052.621,"end":5078.042,"text":"宋達院會查照案的時候報告事項後才能確認呢?不是這樣子吧?所以呢我今天還是非常同情在主席位上的黃總召也非常的擔憂目前坐立難安在我面前的吳昭偉作為當日的臨時主席還是要對於議事規則說明一下超過了原定議程時間之後主席所為的議程制調整有效嗎?"},{"start":5079.463,"end":5087.751,"text":"你到了3點40幾分才來處理說投開票時間到3點還要問大家意見我跟你硬個兩句3點40幾分太早了4點40幾都已經超過3點了這樣的變更議程能有效力嗎"},{"start":5095.303,"end":5110.977,"text":"非法變更議程所謂的投票有效力嗎?這個我想臨時主席現在的吳釗偉現在在場的議事人員這無關我們現在主席位置上的黃總召的意思跟他無關他當天也是在台下的一個與會委員之一而已"},{"start":5111.766,"end":5111.986,"text":"草案。．述"},{"start":5137.796,"end":5161.828,"text":"文件的倒數第1、2、3、4、5、第5行他說這個黨團推敗名單要在11月27號中午12時前送交議事處有各黨團都依照這個決議的內容辦理與時適同放棄沒有黨團放棄這是事實然後呢11月29號院會會匯報名單所以"},{"start":5167.918,"end":5191.008,"text":"到12月2日之前,院會所做的決議,議事人員所做的處理,各黨團所為的回應,都符合院會的決議。但是,這個決議內容,它只有說12月2日星期一,2月20日召開第一次會議,由國民黨黨團推派的代表充任主席,到此為止。"},{"start":5192.574,"end":5209.446,"text":"由出席委員決定本調查委員會之召集人。好了,到這裡為止,當日的臨時主席吳宗憲委員根據事前根據這個決議各黨團的配合送交的名單匯整的結果發出的開會通知當然有效,不爭議。"},{"start":5210.799,"end":5233.084,"text":"但是這裏面並沒有限定並沒有拘束並沒有排除民進黨黨團根據立法院執行司法第46條之一依實際狀況改派委員並沒有拘束黨團限制這樣的權力行使所以民進黨依照院會的決議12月27日中午12時送到議事處了"},{"start":5234.504,"end":5251.771,"text":"議事處也在12月29號星期五由院會來彙報這個名單告訴院會全院委員了也決定了在12月2號下午2點召開第一次會議我們也依照院會的決議由國民黨黨團來推派的吳宗憲召委來擔任臨時的主席而且接下來就進行"},{"start":5252.85,"end":5270.165,"text":"委員出席委員來決定召集人那就是所謂的召委的選舉也列在當日開會通知所謂的討論事項就是選舉就是選舉事項不是討論選舉事項選舉的時間很清楚就到下午30為止如果說對於這個時間有問題當日的臨時"},{"start":5273.803,"end":5291.17,"text":"主席吳仲憲召委應該在3點之前徵得在場人員的同意進行變更而這樣的變更有沒有效力還很難講我們各委員會召委的選舉一般來講必須在一開始的時候跟做個宣告"},{"start":5292.455,"end":5320.086,"text":"不能到時間結束了再來做調整的宣告那這樣子那些已經趕來投票的委員會說我就照時間來投完票了為什麼那些遲到的委員你可以變更時間讓他投票我們歷來委員會的召委選舉都是如此至少當天何時截止發票何時開始開票至少由當日委員會召集的臨時主席當場在投開票之前宣告而且委員超過那時間來就不得投票"},{"start":5321.138,"end":5335.954,"text":"那我們還是要就教吳釗偉當日的臨時主席啊在下午3點多3點40幾分你說要延長到一個小時延長到4點40幾分本席在說太短了,趕快5點這樣的口語交換"},{"start":5339.028,"end":5360.035,"text":"有構成了賦予當時的臨時主席可以在議事日程截止日期時間之後去進圍延長投開票時間嗎?如果不行,這樣的選舉當然是無效。這個不是我們今天在主席位置上黃總召所要面對的,所要他負責的,不是!他不是當日的臨時主席。"},{"start":5361.107,"end":5383.176,"text":"反而他不斷地強調宣讀議事領袖提供的錯誤資料議事領袖很清楚並院會的決議沒有禁止限制排除民進黨在12月27號中午12時送出名單之後依例執法46條之一我們去變更改判名單沒有院會沒有剝奪民進黨黨團依法行使的權利所以民進黨黨團在當日12月2號下午2點15分以書面提出"},{"start":5390.902,"end":5417.773,"text":"如果本席當日竹子稿跟當日林氏主席的發言內容都可以被現在主席位置上的黃總召認為有效延長投開票時間那當日所提出來的改派名單為何林氏主席不接受那個謝謝那個鍾嘉賓委員那接下來林思敏委員好 謝謝主席"},{"start":5419.891,"end":5442.444,"text":"我想今天垂詢的幾位委員不斷的把問題複雜化這是一個非常簡單的問題剛才什麼委員講的我覺得也有道理除了你為什麼不解說啊為什麼不直接就讓這個我們王毅川委員直接就當天就可以這個成為我們調查委員會的委員我想各位有沒有想過我們參與各種的大小的會議"},{"start":5444.445,"end":5473.104,"text":"當一個人已經被匡列原本是這一位是我們的委員會的委員然後也已經把他在整個議程裡面就是認定他是委員然後你突然臨時說要換那要換要由誰來決定那我想當天我們一直強調你今天要在調查委員會突然更換名單因為完整委員剛宣誓就是完畢那完整委員的身份是不是我們當場的臨時主席就可以做決定呢"},{"start":5474.468,"end":5488.537,"text":"沒有人去參加,就是你的宣誓就職典禮,我們並沒有參與。在場委員沒有參與,沒有人指導。所以你叫不在場的委員去宣誓,我們在場委員現在可以立即跟柯金平委員來調換,要我們馬上做確認。"},{"start":5491.019,"end":5516.231,"text":"我想這個完全不符合意識的常規這是很簡單的問題所以今天如果要更換王一川委員進到我們的調查委員會你就是向院會來申請行文嘛你行文之後經過院會確認然後我們也經過院會的我們調查委員會經過院會的一個行文說就是有柯建民委員換成是王一川委員現在程序就是這樣啊"},{"start":5519.167,"end":5546.698,"text":"所以你們是在12月4號行文嗎?你行文過去,那院會被查之後,我們調查委員會再根據院會的通知,來讓王一川委員加入調查委員會這是一個非常簡單的問題,怎麼會一直強調要在委員會馬上就讓你們更換呢?因為這不符合過去我們議事的慣例,我們要很理性的來看這件事情"},{"start":5547.518,"end":5572.299,"text":"如果說你們是故意要干擾議事講說當天為什麼不讓王毅昌委員進來沒有人反對但是我們認為他有一定的程序不是說馬上就可以抽換更何況那天的選票上面我們早在之前就已經匡列好了如果你因為實際的狀況要去更換王毅昌委員我們就很不了解為什麼柯靖民委員明明可以來他不來"},{"start":5573.2,"end":5583.47,"text":"所謂的實際狀況當時的臨時主席能夠做判斷嗎他也沒有辦法判斷啊議事人員可以做判斷嗎都沒有辦法判斷啊所以當然要經過院會的確認"},{"start":5585.791,"end":5603.574,"text":"申請之後把程序上整個完備之後王一長委員才能夠進到調查委員會我想是非常簡單的道理你們不斷的要把它複雜化我覺得這個沒有意義啦沒有意義然後你說時間的問題我想當天我想我們大家都在場"},{"start":5605.688,"end":5622.275,"text":"畢竟我們這個調查委員會我們在選出我們的召委跟所謂的一般選舉畢竟不一樣我們國會自治雖然說我們在時針上排說是3點要進行投票但是經過在場的委員大家多數決定"},{"start":5623.536,"end":5624.157,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5642.079,"end":5642.259,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5660.848,"end":5679.577,"text":"今天調查委員會已經成立了,也已經經過院會整個意思路的確認,你們這個要換黃益川也在院會已經報告事項,也已經確認整個都完全依照我們的議事規則在進行,我不解為什麼要去複雜化這個問題,以上。OK,我們接下來請那個黃益川委員發言"},{"start":5685.868,"end":5701.853,"text":"好 謝謝如果按照林思敏委員的邏輯啊當天在開會的時候在場沒有人知道我已經就職了林思敏委員的邏輯是這樣嘛那請問這個議事錄裡頭的列席人員王逸川是哪裡來的列席啊 議事錄啊昨那一次啦 昨那一天啦列席委員李坤城 王逸川 王定宇啊"},{"start":5714.184,"end":5742.677,"text":"直接回答你好不好因為這是一個事實你當天確實坐在那裏但是你的身份主席還沒有確認那怎麼學我幹嘛就你坐在那裏啊但是你要叫主席當天有參加那個宣誓就職這個我回答你就是事實你是事實坐在那裏不是啦林思敏你講這樣就沒意思啦這第一啦第一就是說第一就是說"},{"start":5744.117,"end":5765.297,"text":"這個委員的名單都團決定,各黨團決定其他的黨也不能有意見,我們的黨就決定推派我,這到底有什麼問題?一天吳宗憲委員說這要院會同意,院會一天沒同意,院會後也沒同意,院會是查詔"},{"start":5767.028,"end":5778.915,"text":"查詔就是白鴨,查詔就是白鴨,已經關定的事來這裡說一下叫查詔啊,不然你就陳情同意啊,不然你就同意啊,不是啦,不然你就是院會同意啊,所以叫吳宗憲說也沒用啊,吳宗憲說要院會同意啊,不是啦,吳宗憲說院會同意啊,你現在又改啊,去到那裡叫查詔現在又改同意,不是啦,我講喔,今天要討論這個就是這樣啦,"},{"start":5798.255,"end":5819.589,"text":"我的興奮是一天因為吳宗憲一個人決定說我不能投票我也不是好選人啊這對我來說這是一個瑕疵啊這是一個重大瑕疵啊所以我們今天為什麼這個議事錄沒辦法決定啊這議事錄有瑕疵啊今天多大定管的那些國鄉啊"},{"start":5820.728,"end":5826.692,"text":"不是啦,這一段定管在國中啊,國中啊現在有沒有資格當這個會這個召委,這也會確定啊,議事會沒確定他要做召委,是不是這樣,這不會通啊,大家是尊重他,他這段現在講台都要走出議會,他讓我們講我們講的,問題是他現在不適格啊。"},{"start":5844.545,"end":5846.607,"text":"要先決定 決定到吳宗憲說要同意這件事 當然那天決定我不能做委員 我不能做這個委員 不能選召委 這件事今天決定了"},{"start":5857.533,"end":5858.354,"text":"謝謝王玉川委員我再次說明一下"},{"start":5886.141,"end":5913.113,"text":"我今天坐在這邊擔任召委是因為我收到院會議事處的通知那院會議事處針對這件事情也是依照上個禮拜五院會報告事項第100案的內容那當天請容我再強調一次當天院會去報告說這個委員會選出由本人來擔任召集委員當天的這個事項"},{"start":5914.474,"end":5943.468,"text":"沒有任何人提出異議沒有任何人提出爭執也沒有任何人當場表示任何反對的意見那從議事同仁他們的立場在院會裡面做了報告也沒有任何異議那我們的議事同仁都是奉公守法的公務員就依照院會報告的事項通過了以後那議事處通知本委員會的議事同仁"},{"start":5944.248,"end":5959.883,"text":"本委會的議事同仁才依法發出了今天這樣子的會議通知我想就客觀層面的事實我先跟各位委員說明一下那接下來不曉得還有哪一位委員要發言我們接下來請沈博洋委員"},{"start":5963.059,"end":5985.422,"text":"關於為什麼今天會有這個會議的理由已經講了4次了但我還是要回應一下就是剛剛林思明委員提到的就是我們立法院職權刑事法46之一他是說調查委員會的成員由立法院各黨團所以它主體是各黨團依其在院會之席次比例推派之並得視情況予以改派所以它的主體是黨團"},{"start":5987.003,"end":6007.81,"text":"他不是說當天要去尋得這一個不管是臨時的這一個主席還是說院會的同意他本身就是可以視實際情況與改派我剛剛舉的那個例子就是說我也沒有怪說為什麼今天一定要這個時候開會但就比如說因為現在在審空軍等一下就要審到海軍所以今天是一個非常重要的這個預算審查"},{"start":6009.15,"end":6035.338,"text":"那在這個情況之下,我們也,如果說今天真的來不及的話,我們是不是就是要予以改派?就是這種情況可能會很多件,因為現在在,尤其是我們現在在這個預算會議,又卡了那一堆預算審查案,又有法案,然後又有這種調查委員會。所以在當時,其實根本就沒有困難,只要議事人員讓王逸川委員那時候簽到,他已經有確認他就是有一個立法委員的資格。"},{"start":6036.058,"end":6057.536,"text":"那我們在當時呢,我們本來就已經要求由柯建民委員換成王逸川委員這完全不是一個強人所難的事情,他是依照法條46之一在做的事情所以我們的主張是,那個完全是一個合法合規的換人的方式他不是要經過同意的,他是法條上面就說你可以改派之"},{"start":6058.317,"end":6083.843,"text":"那再來最後還是要講一下剛剛宗教兵委員一直提到就是今天要延長會議時間不是不行但他一定要在法定的時間之前嘛不然徐欣穎委員今天在2點以前一定要趕下去然後說噢今天要延長到12點他為什麼要這樣做就是因為本來的法定時間到2點他一定要在2點以前做這樣的事情嘛他總不能半夜10點跑下去說今天會議延長到12點這大家一定崩潰啊"},{"start":6084.583,"end":6101.345,"text":"雖然說真的會議根本就沒有開始我不知道他到底要怎麼延長但總之就是他要做這件事情第一個文書上面就寫是三點那也應該是在三點以前如果這個的議事規則當時發現完了已經超過三點了也來不及延長了"},{"start":6101.866,"end":6130.125,"text":"其實說真的就就說啊不然我們再約個明天後天大家協調一下我們重新來開會重新來投票這都是按照議事規則可以做的事今天不是說因為剛剛吳宗憲委員說這個是在浪費我們在拖時間然後在我們等一下要審預算沒有想要拖時間然後說我們這個是廢話對我們來講重點就是議事規則很簡單的一個遵守而已我覺得有時候我們現在整個立法院的一個亂象就是議事規則大家"},{"start":6130.865,"end":6131.005,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6150.435,"end":6150.655,"text":"草案。．述"},{"start":6169.206,"end":6197.524,"text":"這今年已經幾乎要蕩然無存了因為你們完全沒有想要遵守而我們明明都知道你們現在有多數然後你們要選誰當召委他也選得上你要通過什麼要點也可以通過這個我們都知道而我們如此卑微的要求就是按照46條之一當時我們的改派然後以及在3點之前就應該要延長會議的時間其實就是那麼簡單的事情最後的結果跟你們要的不會有差別啊"},{"start":6197.924,"end":6225.319,"text":"但我們好好的按照議事規則走一次然後也為後來樹立一樣的一個典範這樣不是好事嗎以上好那個謝謝沈博洋委員那我們現在是不是進行議事錄的確認好請問確認上次會議的議事錄在場委員有沒有異議來我們我們要求提案好那個鍾嘉斌委員有提案來謝謝OK好"},{"start":6227.372,"end":6235.844,"text":"案有針對本會第一次全體委員會會議議事錄因出席委員名單、召集委員、遴選"},{"start":6238.561,"end":6264.639,"text":"選舉人民策及選舉事項之過程和結果均榮有意義故就此部分之議事錄記載與該次會議內容實際發生的情況不符那應與更正或者是移除所以中委員這樣子的一個提案基本上就是反對確認議事錄嗎就是我們要求議事錄根據哪些事情要移除我們討論"},{"start":6266.226,"end":6291.599,"text":"我們剛剛不是討論了一個小時又14分鐘嗎?剛剛的討論有這個提案在場嗎?沒有啊!剛剛的討論沒有這個提案在場啊!剛剛我們在討論當天12月2號臨時主席吳宗憲所為的決定以議事人員所給的建議所以不好意思我先請教一下那個提案的委員現在所提的這個案子請問是一個什麼樣子性質的提案?"},{"start":6293.001,"end":6319.072,"text":"我們目前的提案就是就議事錄當中要移除的部分進行討論移除的部分那就你們現在要移除的部分請問你們覺得哪個部分要移除因為這樣子的話因為這個跟我們現在確認議事錄的事項我先跟大家說明一下是屬於同一事件之性質什麼叫同一事件之性質就議事錄的確認有委員認為應該予以確認這個我尊重"},{"start":6323.195,"end":6340.107,"text":"有委員認為要移除要改那要怎麼移除要怎麼改跟要確認議事錄的這個事項是屬於同一個標的的事項因為一個是大的嘛另外一個是小的嘛那所以我說針對有關於議事錄確認的這件事情剛剛"},{"start":6344.491,"end":6357.821,"text":"從2點開始到現在3點15分我相信在場的人以及現在所有在網路上面關注這個委員會開會的人都可以清楚的見證我充分的尊重每一位委員的發言"},{"start":6359.122,"end":6359.602,"text":"草案。．草案。．草案。"},{"start":6379.071,"end":6379.351,"text":"中委員的性質"},{"start":6394.008,"end":6417.643,"text":"中委員所要處理提案的性質是說您認為議事錄上面有不實需要做更正那我們就按照程序來予以處理那你現在提案的內容是針對議事錄的部分就哪個部分您認為要予以更正是不是請中委員來說明一下"},{"start":6418.103,"end":6435.701,"text":"好 謝謝在主席位置上的黃總召其實在意識學當中所謂的意識錄確認意識錄所列的文字內容就是原案就是這個原案要訴請我們委員會來進行確認一般就是表決討論後表決那就是原案"},{"start":6436.513,"end":6462.228,"text":"那本席所提出來的是針對原案當中的第一修正案要移除部分的登載不實的內容我具體的指名我現在會補充就是要移除那這個移除當然會是屬於議事錄確認當中這個陳如剛剛黃總召所說的這是一個原案那麼我們很明確就原案當中要或不要通過議事錄這是原案"},{"start":6463.325,"end":6473.167,"text":"那要通過議事務這是原案我們的第一修正案就是針對這個原案當中要移除的部分要加以處理這是第一修正案"},{"start":6473.82,"end":6500.499,"text":"那當然其他委員也可以就這個第一修正案的部分來做第二修正案做第三修正案那麼目前依照意識學我們修正案優先處理那目前在場的案動議如果黃總召同意的話目前我們已經成案那成案的第一修正案要處理那我就具體的就提案的內容說明要移除的部分那請問現在可不可以來進行第一修正案的主張跟說明和討論"},{"start":6504.392,"end":6511.902,"text":"謝謝那個總委員因為我目前所收到的案有你們提出來要移除的部分上面一個字都沒寫"},{"start":6516.423,"end":6537.334,"text":"不好意思齁,那你如果要提案的話就請你提出書面因為沒有啊,你現在提出的書面上面根本沒有講你的意識度到底要移除哪裡,要更正哪裡嘛現在我要處理你的提案,那我要先請你特定你提案的內容所以我請你用書面提嘛,那我現在告訴你的"},{"start":6539.395,"end":6560.129,"text":"剛剛那個中委員所提的那個書面的提案,我覺得為了明確起見,那個意識同仁啊,事實是發給我們在場所有的委員。來,我先念一下剛剛他的案由,他說有疑義,所以疑義更正或移除,那我剛剛說的完全沒有錯。"},{"start":6561.03,"end":6583.057,"text":"要更正什麼地方要移除什麼地方那在這個案子裡面完全沒有任何的記載完全沒有任何的記載那既然我們現在目前針對書面的提案請那個總委員你是不是要把你的提案補正一下到底哪裡要移除哪裡要更正來請對不起齁"},{"start":6585.7,"end":6614.373,"text":"什麼是更正搞清楚啊今天我們班會決定明天要考試我提出修正案說考試前先去遠足那你說遠足那遠足你要去哪裡遠足遠足多久哪些要參加本席應提出啊你說意思要確認原案要確認這是一個提案我認為原案當中要移除要修正所以我接下來我要說明哪些要移除哪些修正你總不能說我說明天要遠足你說啊你在遠足的動議"},{"start":6615.413,"end":6642.25,"text":"你沒有寫時間沒有寫參加人員沒有寫要不要繳交費用所以你這個要求明天考試前我們先去遠足的修正動議你這個不完備抱歉啊我認為剛剛有點強詞奪理剝奪了提案委員我可以做說明但是我的提案很清楚我已經針對議事錄的確認原案是我同意我明確的指出有不實的部分要移除要更正"},{"start":6643.09,"end":6667.437,"text":"至於我要移除哪裡跟著哪裡這是我的說明就像我提議考試前先去遠足要去哪裡遠足要不要交錢那是我的提案說明我也希望我們今天在會議進行當中其實也不會花時間剛剛沈博洋委員講的就很清楚今天目前的國會多數就算在本調查委員會裡面也很清楚多數在哪裡"},{"start":6668.654,"end":6675.546,"text":"這個委員會或院會的多數要做什麼樣的決定,一定按照民主的程序,可以按照他們的意旨來遂行。"},{"start":6676.345,"end":6701.115,"text":"那現在這個召委的選舉我們提出了一些質疑那麼重選也不是很困難的事情怎麼會我剛剛講出來的有這麼困難嗎重選會很困難嗎但是重選之後就杜絕了這些程序上與我們的議事常規有備而遭到日後挑戰的可能性所以我們很希望這個國發基金調查委員會"},{"start":6702.375,"end":6726.537,"text":"能夠在一開始就能夠依照我們立法院院會的決議跟立法院相關的上位法令以及我們議事常規來進行因此剛剛在場的議案的秩序是議事錄書面所列的部分那是原案那要通過與否我們剛剛有做了一個廣泛的討論現在我提出的第一修正案主張議事錄當中"},{"start":6728.53,"end":6744.951,"text":"要移除或修正部分那我接下來的提案說明我就要說明移除哪些修正哪些所以在這裡我就直接來說明我們目前認為有哪些與事實不符首先第一點"},{"start":6746.775,"end":6771.916,"text":"列席委員王逸川委員當日在下午12月2日下午2時15分他的身份是立法委員但是他是民進黨改派的委員他不應該再放在列席委員請假委員柯建民委員已經經過民進黨黨團改派他雖然是立法委員但是不是本委員會的委員就沒有所謂的請假的這個頭銜那麼"},{"start":6775.953,"end":6795.78,"text":"第3當日的議事錄的時間從23分主席宣布開會臨時主席宣布開會那麼到40、54分這個明顯的與會議通知上所做的議事日程3點完成投票"},{"start":6796.994,"end":6797.434,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6817.589,"end":6844.184,"text":"然後報告事項當中因為他是就我們院會的決議所為的剛剛我已經把院會當時所做的決議已經提供給我們在場的委員說明看過了然後也宣讀了當時他召集委員的選舉人名冊那這裡面因為只有寫宣讀選舉人名冊那選舉人名冊的內容因為在我們的議事部當中他沒有作為當日的附件"},{"start":6844.804,"end":6845.104,"text":"選舉事項、本會召集委員、選舉結果"},{"start":6864.138,"end":6879.669,"text":"這個部分由於該次選舉是在法定合法時間以外所為那該時間並未經時間內的合法之宣告予以延長所以這個選舉事項是在我們確認的議程的時間外發生那麼這個選舉事項"},{"start":6887.894,"end":6888.835,"text":"草案。 草案。"},{"start":6907.132,"end":6923.553,"text":"第二．列席委員．王逸川委員．當日有出席．不應該列為列席委員．已經民進黨正式以書面改派第三．請教委員．柯建民委員．經過改派後已經不是本委員會的民進黨推派委員．請移除"},{"start":6926.335,"end":6946.549,"text":"選舉事項,因為該日的選舉已經溢出了當日合法的會議時間,因此該市的選舉事項無效,因予移除。以上這4點時間,列席委員,請假委員,以及選舉事項有分別要進行更正以及移除的部分。"},{"start":6947.249,"end":6959.42,"text":"最後附帶一點第五點,我們希望這個議事錄能夠將報告事項的第二點,宣讀本會召集委員的選舉人名冊以復健的方式列入在我們的議事錄當中,讓我們知道當日的選舉是由哪些人,哪些名單。這個請求,我想可以先希望能夠聽聽我們議事處人員,因為過去我們在議事錄的確認的時候,可能我經驗有限,"},{"start":6973.732,"end":7000.135,"text":"不曉得有沒有這樣的一個議事錄的確認過程當中可不可以在修正登案的時候加上這樣的要求那以上呢是我們今天針對議事錄確認我們所提的在議程上在議事規則上他的地位是屬於第一修正案那我們分別就第一修正案的內容分別做以上的五點說明那麼既然呢在主席位置上的王總召他有自行準備的逐字稿"},{"start":7000.555,"end":7000.755,"text":"主旨稿"},{"start":7023.624,"end":7025.729,"text":"謝謝鍾委員嘉賓的說明請問現場對於鍾委員嘉賓提案的內容有無異議"},{"start":7034.252,"end":7063.142,"text":"有異議嗎?OK,好,那我們現在先處理的標的是中委員嘉賓所提出來的臨時提案那贊成中委員嘉賓所提出的第一修正案的請舉手不用討論嗎?我發言完了,我提案,我說明完了,不用討論嗎?不用討論喔不用討論,我說明完了啊那個,我們就按照程序進行嘛,對,所以剛剛在你說明完了以後我要進行處理,那現在有委員請求要發言嗎?"},{"start":7065.536,"end":7084.115,"text":"是嗎?現在有沒有委員要請求發言?有,好那我們來請王逸川委員剛剛這個中委員把話講得那麼清楚,我當時就是初期委員那你可以設定我說我2點15分到,那我2點15分到,我2點15分以後是初期委員"},{"start":7086.118,"end":7098.19,"text":"我2點15分以後,要開始選召集委員的時候,我就已經有參選的資格。所以告訴我,宗嘉斌委員念的很正確,這改改的事情就改過了。"},{"start":7099.065,"end":7099.225,"text":"草案。：討論"},{"start":7119.813,"end":7127.477,"text":"所以這一個可以投票的委員可以當候選人的委員都還沒有確定要不要召集委員的選舉當然就沒意義了不是這樣嗎"},{"start":7130.469,"end":7137.493,"text":"拜託吳宗憲委員講一下他當時是怎樣,情境他最知道,因為當時郭熊仔沒在聽他講他都不知道叫吳宗憲講一下當時是怎樣決定要去院會去動議,跟他講事情我可以去裡面做委員,這也要講一下,大家把事情講清楚"},{"start":7152.501,"end":7153.683,"text":"講到請做要給我們人、我們人到現在表格書我們就輸了,總是這議事錄大家玩玩,對不對,看要怎麼蓋怎麼用"},{"start":7162.635,"end":7166.257,"text":"總是要有一個結論,不然這條你們還要放的嗎?要放的一直放過去嗎?那又沒道理了吧?我是建議說,大家再參詳一下,吳宗憲委員你也說一下,說當時你去做我這個委員會委員理由是什麼,也再說一下,你當時你主席啊,大家說的話你都有聽到啊,你也給大家解說一下對不對?"},{"start":7188.49,"end":7192.512,"text":"請問針對中委員嘉賓所提出來的修正案還有沒有委員要表示意見請沈博洋委員"},{"start":7215.051,"end":7230.669,"text":"那這個齁我覺得這是有點奇怪啦齁所以我們並不是在做質詢我們只是要討論而已就好像我們今天在法條主條討論的時候其實雙方也都會發言啦我們並不是說一定要出你不是說什麼質疑說什麼這個吳宗憲委員怎樣怎樣而是只是說"},{"start":7231.97,"end":7255.919,"text":"這兩件事情就是那麼的單純第一個事情就是在2點15分以後我們有按照46條之一提出了改派那剛剛林思敏委員有針對這個發表意見那我們也算是有討論到嘛那另外一個就是很簡單的也就是藝術最需要更正的就是在他的時間這一行他應該是下午2點3分他就只能到3點00分嘛"},{"start":7257.66,"end":7284.88,"text":"因為他並沒有在3點以前去延長這個會議的時間那目前來講我也想不到一個比較合理的說法說他為什麼可以到4點54分所以這件事情我覺得是可以討論而且討論完之後如果我們覺得這就是一個沒有符合規則的方式那我們也承認然後我們也因為這樣重新選這樣是好事啊不然這樣等於留了一個尾巴以後別人都可以拿這一個黃國昌委員的這個調查委員會來說嘴嘛"},{"start":7287.883,"end":7315.124,"text":"上次他也講說沒有關係啊可以在這個3點以後再延長開會時間沒有關係啊那如果這樣的話那以後我們不是議事都大亂嗎我覺得這要設一個sample就是說我們至少要讓大家知道遵守議事規則是什麼樣子在這個議事的攻防上面原本就是如此我覺得不要說去迴避討論這一個問題然後就說要直接的表決表決的結果我們也都知道啊我們也等一下也都還有別的事情要做但是"},{"start":7315.945,"end":7344.342,"text":"我覺得好好討論這件事情說真的應該沒有那麼的困難好 謝謝沈博洋委員請問在場委員還有沒有要表示意見來請中委員嘉賓好 謝謝那麼針對第一修正案的部分我第二次提出剛剛已經很清楚的說明了我們的第一修正案當中要做的五點的內容那麼到目前討論嘛"},{"start":7346.129,"end":7357.445,"text":"討論就是大家拿出來有不同意見類似的意見其他的看法都可以大家共同來交換但是一直很疑惑的"},{"start":7359.084,"end":7379.689,"text":"我跟吳宗憲、吳昭偉我們同樣在司法法制委員會那我們也是隔週輪流輪值來擔任主席其實我們彼此對於會議的進行其實都有一定的默契也了解我們在委員會當中我們所進行的意識那麼各黨團基於立場有差別"},{"start":7380.189,"end":7405.222,"text":"我們有議事攻防那是當然難免但是呢當我們對於議事的認知有這樣的一個明顯的不同的時候那當日在12月2號下午的那一次就是要來產生這個特別調查委員會的召委的那一次那吳召委擔任臨時主席那他所為的一些宣告所做的一些對"},{"start":7406.443,"end":7435.592,"text":"一事當場的處理我們提出了一些質疑那麼到目前為止當天對於這樣的質疑作為臨時主席的吳釗偉也並沒有做更多的說明有啦有做了一些說明啦但這些說明呢我們當場質疑到現在我們也有新的市政來支持但是有這個新的市政來支持我舉例齁這個不是重複我不太重複太多其實有關於查照跟核定"},{"start":7436.722,"end":7456.527,"text":"這個明顯的就是不同我想在場有很多法學的溯驗大家對於法學法律用詞是很清楚查照不因為事後查照的日程去影響到當時所發生的效力那因此呢既然是查照就沒有說要送到院務會去做決定"},{"start":7457.847,"end":7481.702,"text":"當日的臨時主席吳釗偉口口聲聲說民進黨所改派的委員必須送到院會去做確認去做決定那這個因為我實在不想要再重複為什麼但是我為什麼不得不講因為既然要討論我主張要移除更正王逸川委員當日的出席身份"},{"start":7482.881,"end":7507.551,"text":"那麼對於這個出席身份有不同意見但是不是今日的不同意見是當日的不同意見的當日的臨時主席吳宗憲、昭偉他當時堅持這個改派必須是由院會才能做決定那麼雖然我頒出的例子法是6條之2但是始終他不為他所認同但是到今天吳昭偉到目前還是不發異議"},{"start":7509.043,"end":7528.766,"text":"對於當日作為臨時主席所謂的議事處理的認知以及明顯的跟今日包括現在在主席位置上的黃總召所宣讀的院會的關係文書的內容是明顯的有見嘛剛剛所宣讀的內容是請查照案嘛"},{"start":7530.097,"end":7549.786,"text":"那為什麼在12月2號我們現在面前的吳釗偉在當日作為臨時主席的時候認為王逸川委員的出席身份需要到日後的院會才能做確認呢那因此本席提出的第一修正案的說明當中有關於去更正"},{"start":7551.286,"end":7577.417,"text":"王逸川委員所列的列席委員而改列為初席委員那個部分至少當日的主席臨時主席的吳釗偉要說明一下我們在討論那你都不回避不願意說明你當日所做的為什麼會這個因為那個那個黃總召說他手上的那份逐字稿我現在知道那份是他自己"},{"start":7578.91,"end":7606.778,"text":"電腦上去調錄音檔自己形成的真的很辛苦我還以為是我們議事人員所提供的還不小心要去翻閱原來那是私人財產我以為是我們會議的文書資料我也很好奇啊當日如果按照這個時間的記載從2點3分到4點54分哇那這個逐字稿內容相當豐富啊而且當日呢麥克風有好幾支因為"},{"start":7608.171,"end":7618.909,"text":"群仙樓802會議室每個座位上都有麥克風那這個逐字稿要如何去呈現當日我用一個說明七嘴八舌的發言內容"},{"start":7620.148,"end":7647.924,"text":"而多因軌的結果所呈現出來的逐字稿要怎麼樣成為目前在主席座位上的黃總召作為他議事裁量的依據,我也很納悶但是呢,我很誠意的想聽聽看目前呢,看起來有點坐立難,對不起我收回我不應該去揣動目前吳釗偉他的心情吳釗偉目前對於當日所為臨時主席的身份,那到底"},{"start":7648.584,"end":7673.662,"text":"你所說的王逸川委員的出席身份要到院會才能決定這個依據為何我也很好奇也希望說經過合理的說明我有機會被說服就是說到底我們這個如果這個吳釗偉他可以說服我說這個事情雖然是查照案但是根據他的法學的素養跟過去議事的經驗他可以把這樣的一個查照案"},{"start":7674.182,"end":7698.768,"text":"在當日做臨時主席的情況之下可以敬語認定王逸川委員不具有出席委員的身份那或許這樣子我就可以接受在我目前在確認議事錄議事地位是第一修正案的內容提案的第一點關於我們王逸川委員到底是出席身份還是列席身份我可以接受再做調整"},{"start":7702.549,"end":7719.838,"text":"科建民委員請假身份,若第一點成立,第二點更正若第二點都成立,當日的選舉人名冊就要修正若當日的選舉人名冊都要修正,選舉結果勢必要重來"},{"start":7720.979,"end":7721.199,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":7733.12,"end":7754.477,"text":"五十四分那這個時間是否有誤當日臨時主席吳宗憲召委所為的延長會議時間的宣告是否有在合法有效的議事處理時程在三點之前所為而當場是不是又經過一致的同意禁語延長這個都不疑疑問"},{"start":7755.217,"end":7783.938,"text":"那這種種諸多的疑問疑點其實今天最有辦法將這個討論做一個明快的結束的就是我們的吳昭偉吳宗憲委員那麼您身為12月2日國發基金調查特別委員會由國民黨所推派的臨時主席您所為的議事處理應該在現在做一個公開的完整的讓我們了解"},{"start":7784.518,"end":7806.043,"text":"說不定在我瞭解之後我可以接受這些議事錄當中哪些部分是屬於合法有效的所以我再次的當然剛剛在主席位置上的黃總召也說過我們委員會的議事其實並沒有說有委員出席委員來質詢其他的出席委員沒有我們都是做意見的交換"},{"start":7807.183,"end":7830.065,"text":"當然在會議詢問的時候我們會透過會議主席的轉接將會議詢問轉由可能有能力回答的委員來代為回答這點完全是主席依照我們所提出的會議詢問來進行做處理不過由於目前本席所進行的方式並不是會議詢問是對易思路確認的原案提出第一修正案"},{"start":7830.72,"end":7830.76,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":7848.749,"end":7848.929,"text":"草案。 草案。"},{"start":7867.108,"end":7888.599,"text":"一個慣性就是說當別人認真的討論他們不想聽沒耐性聽然後自己又不願意或沒有能力提出不同意見或反駁或澄清當你無力做出澄清無法做出反駁那麼你所能做的就是用人數的優勢提出停止討論的動議根據委員會的我們議事規則用書面為之我看現在都在做準備了"},{"start":7893.382,"end":7893.502,"text":"草案。．述"},{"start":7913.78,"end":7913.9,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":7932.054,"end":7932.895,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7948.393,"end":7948.633,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":7964.359,"end":7989.859,"text":"是屬於歷來都有在進行的不管朝野各政黨都在進行的還是破天荒前所未有到本屆的國民黨黨團在他們的副總召所為之下所提出的完全毀棄破壞民主的程序所為的一黨關門修法的這樣的劣跡那麼透過這樣的一個意識的公開呈現"},{"start":7991.7,"end":8018.325,"text":"讓全國的國人都能夠清楚的看到那麼國民黨再次的不管是透過集體的暴力還是透過多數的暴力那麼來要碾壓要終止這樣我們對於非常重要這個非常重要也是因為提案委員上次在院會當中在某次的院會當中特別提出要成立這樣的一個特別調查委員會既然這個調查委員會所要調查的事項"},{"start":8019.125,"end":8047.138,"text":"如贊成跟提案的委員在院會作成決議是如此的重要那為何我們今天完全依照議事規則所為的討論議事錄的內容的討論那麼目前我們完全聽不到國民黨委員你們的回應那尤其是當日的臨時主席吳宗憲吳委員吳昭偉您始終不發一語所以呢我們還是很懇切的希望"},{"start":8047.765,"end":8053.895,"text":"能夠得到你們的一個意見或許在接下來停止討論之後"},{"start":8055.049,"end":8083.841,"text":"我們就可以呢就這樣的結果來進行合乎議事規則民主程序的表決那麼以上我們就就這樣的一個說明謝謝我們願意聆聽這樣充分完整的討論那但是如果還有未進的地方我們也樂於見到不管是本黨的委員還是他黨的委員我們就同意的議題現在第一修正案已經提出來以上五點的內容就交於大家謝謝"},{"start":8087.798,"end":8107.977,"text":"謝謝,那個徐委員不好意思,就是說依照議事規則我必須要先處理,雖然你有舉手那我現在目前呢,收到書面的提案由林思敏委員、吳宗憲委員、徐欣委員等所提出來,建請停止討論來處理我們鍾嘉賓委員的第一修正案那是不是先請清點在場人數"},{"start":8121.657,"end":8122.237,"text":"到底有什麼意思啊?"},{"start":8142.224,"end":8151.257,"text":"贊成中嘉賓委員第一修正案的請舉手現場沒有任何人表示贊成,反對的請舉手"},{"start":8155.573,"end":8167.518,"text":"反對的1、2、3、4、5總共有5個人那中嘉賓委員等人所提的第一修正案那我們就否決那我們現在處理有關於議事錄的確認那對於議事錄的確認在場有沒有委員有異議"},{"start":8176.563,"end":8202.348,"text":"現在目前在場的委員五人全部對於議事錄的確認表示贊成那我們現在就進行討論事項立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會運作要點草案我再請議事同仁宣讀以前不曉得在場委員對程序的進行還有什麼意見來請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":8204.144,"end":8205.505,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8224.183,"end":8246.702,"text":"嚴當整個意思不要讓大家去審查國發基金嗎這其實司馬昭之心路人皆知啊那我們為什麼要配合他玩所以我們都不覺得不需要去跟他們一來一往以上我就跟先跟主席報告這個第一件事情那第二件事情就是有關當天會議時間的投票時間的改變以及是否王一川能不能夠"},{"start":8248.223,"end":8265.851,"text":"改推派這個部分當天我在做任何作為的時候我都有解釋原因是什麼依據是什麼第二個當天這兩個動作我雖然對於立法委員職權行使法以及議事規則我依據我的認知可以這麼做我"},{"start":8267.968,"end":8295.576,"text":"也沒有堅持大家一定要聽我的我還希望說請最懂議事規則的議事人員以及法治局來解釋我的請他們提供一些意見給我們建議我的做法對不對那當天你們都在場也聽到了法治局給我們的回覆以及議事人員的表示這兩個作為都沒有問題甚至民進黨當時也同意說我們來聽法治局的意見"},{"start":8296.576,"end":8321.698,"text":"法治局如果認為沒問題就沒問題就法治局覺得沒問題之後換民進黨有問題了所以這個啊其實一連串下來他就是為了延宕今天的開會嘛第3個是否無效這東西不是誰說了算民進黨長期對於同一條議事規則以及對於立法委員職權行事法同一個條文總是有非常多種的解釋方式"},{"start":8322.398,"end":8347.813,"text":"然後他就看今天的議程哪一個解釋方式對他有利他就拿那個出來亂講一通所以今天非常的簡單如果他要主張我們當天有任何作為而無效所以導致主席今天是不合法的那他去講他的我們從頭到尾沒有認為無效也不會因為中嘉賓一個人無效就造成剛剛王逸川以及剛剛沈伯陽好像就拿無效這樣一直來講下去"},{"start":8348.533,"end":8366.233,"text":"你連到底無不無效你都搞不清楚的時候後面那一段都是廢話所以我剛剛連聽我都懶得聽所以在這邊我就跟各位報告如果在場任何委員對於我在12月2日當天所做的議事主持有任何的意見請回去看當天12月2號的錄影"},{"start":8367.967,"end":8391.456,"text":"不要再問我叫我解釋我沒有那個義務要接受其他委員的質詢或是解釋給其他委員聽他們可以回去看一下12月2號當天的錄影那再來說或是他要請求救濟歡迎不要來這邊胡說八道鬼扯一通只為了耽誤我們整個國發基金的審查所以我們不要落入他的圈套那麻煩主席就我們開始實質進行議案謝謝"},{"start":8393.764,"end":8416.46,"text":"那個謝謝吳宗憲委員那的確成如吳宗憲委員所講我們今天來討論這個調查委員會全體的委員我們的目標就是要來去履行院會所交付我們大家的任務針對國發基金不當的投資及管理的失職來進行國會的調查"},{"start":8420.143,"end":8445.113,"text":"在場與會的委員的確在議事規則上在法律上都沒有義務去回答其他委員所提出來的質詢這是第一點主席先做這樣的確認那第二個上一次開會的時候整個議事的過程包括了選舉的結果包括了改派委員其實上禮拜五在院會的時候都已經列入了報告事項"},{"start":8445.993,"end":8463.051,"text":"那報告事項,誠如我剛剛在開會的時候,我不斷拿著院會所記載的白紙黑字向大家所做的說明當天針對兩個報告事項,在場沒有任何委員,沒有任何黨團提出異議"},{"start":8464.312,"end":8487.287,"text":"院會確認了以後我們議事處的同仁完全依法來發出今天的會議通知那我想我作為今天的召委先就程序上面的事項先再次的不厭其煩的跟所有的委員再次的進行報告那至於其他委員有不同的看法我也都尊重大家發言的空間"},{"start":8488.268,"end":8515.729,"text":"那講話有道理沒有道理我相信所有看這場直播的人大家每一個人心裡都有一把尺我也不需要再多說什麼那我們現在是不是就先請宣讀因為今天針對我們所進行的那個討論的事項的那個議案我們有林思明委員楊瓊英委員以及"},{"start":8523.166,"end":8540.582,"text":"有三位委員提出運作要點的草案,我們是不是請宣讀。宣讀委員林思明等三人提案,立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會運作要點草案。一,立法院國家發展基金"},{"start":8542.028,"end":8565.478,"text":"不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會．下稱本會立法院職權行使法．下稱本法第45條規定即立法院．下稱本院第11屆第二會期第10次會議決議成立之本會運作處法律及與本院有關法令另有規定外依本要點行之本會由"},{"start":8566.098,"end":8591.948,"text":"本院各黨團依其在院會之席次比例推派共14人由國民黨黨團推派7人民進黨黨團推派6人臺灣民眾黨團推派1人組成4本會召集委員1人由所屬成員互選之處理本會會務並擔任會議主席5本會會議需由委員三分之一出席方得開會其決議以出席委員過半數同意之"},{"start":8592.628,"end":8615.948,"text":"同意行之但出席委員不足3人者不得議決必要時得以秘密會議方式行之6本會議本法第47條第二項規定詢問相關人員詢問需出於懇切之態度不得有強暴、脅迫或以其他意導致心理強制的狀態並不得強迫證人為不利己之公訴"},{"start":8616.989,"end":8624.196,"text":"及告知其有拒絕證言之權利及事由接受調查詢問之人員當據實答覆,決無逆勢增減本會調查"},{"start":8629.915,"end":8647.028,"text":"其間自民國113年12月18日至114年4月30日但經本會決議的延長之相關資料之查閱時間為每週一至週五上午九時至下午五時,八本會所調閱之文件、資料或物件"},{"start":8648.088,"end":8672.816,"text":"現由本會之委員親自查閱並署名於查閱登記部。9、查閱之任人對依法應保密之文件、資料或物件不得抄錄、攝影、影印、送讀、錄音或為其他複製行為亦不得吸離或傳輸至查閱場所外。10、本會對外行文得以本會名義為之本會委員未均決議不得以本會名義對外發言。"},{"start":8675.312,"end":8690.409,"text":"11.本會調查對象為國家發展委員會及其所屬行政院國家發展基金管理會等有關機關本會調查事項範圍如下1.國家發展基金刮鬍下身國家發展基金刮鬍下身國發基金之投資有無"},{"start":8692.042,"end":8716.625,"text":"因不當外力介入而作出不當投資決策﹐對投資標的所衍生之弊案﹐有無禍行放水之行為。﹐國發基金有無落實就其不當投資決策﹐強加評估檢討﹐有無評估是否能採取特定作為改善問題。﹐對於已無財政目的政策意義或已偏離政策目的等投資事業。"},{"start":8718.536,"end":8742.206,"text":"是否能有效改正或啟動退漲機制是國家發展委員會有無督促國發基金對於不符政策目的之投資事業依規定加強檢視推動退漲機制使國發基金符合國家產業發展策略充分投資於產業創新高科技發展能源能資源再生"},{"start":8743.126,"end":8772.341,"text":"等增加產業效益或改善產業結構之重要事業或計劃十二本會得要求有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供參考資料於必要時得依本法第47條第二項規定詢問相關人員並得依本法相關規定舉行聽證會十三本會會議召開時得邀請被調閱文件資料及物件之機關首長率同有關人員列席說明"},{"start":8772.964,"end":8772.985,"text":"時事"},{"start":8774.844,"end":8800.549,"text":"接受調查詢問之人員或受邀出席聽證會之人員得由律師相關專業人員等在場協助。15.本會所需之工作人員由本院秘書長指派之必要時本會得請求院長指派專業人員協助之。16.本會因於調查終結後30日內向院會提出調查報告書及處理意見,作為處理該特定議案或與立法委員職權相關事項之依據。17.聽證會報告因於"},{"start":8804.971,"end":8828.568,"text":"聽證會終結後15日內提出並作為審查特定議案之參考重要參考18本會與調查期間屆滿議案調查完畢並提出調查報告及處理意見後即行解散或與該屆立法委員任期屆滿時自動解散19本運作要點由本會通過後施行修正時一同宣讀完畢"},{"start":8830.336,"end":8839.618,"text":"好那我們現在進行處理那第一個請問在場的委員對於這個要點有沒有意見這個是不是可以請在場的委員有什麼意見沒有意見也按麥克風錄一下這樣我們可以把它完整的放到議事錄當中沒有意見沒有意見"},{"start":8857.662,"end":8860.704,"text":"沒有意見我們三個是提案的"},{"start":8873.22,"end":8890.897,"text":"好 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實有提出他們的看法，這些我們都會提給環評單位，讓他們去做審慎的評估。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，據你的判斷，二十五分之三的出事機率嚴不嚴重？"],["陳部長世凱：當時實際的狀況我不瞭解，所以現在在這邊……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啊！就是這個機率啊！實際的狀況就是有1次碰撞、2次差一點碰撞啊！"],["陳部長世凱：這個是模擬的狀態，可是實際到時候……"],["張委員啓楷：當然就是要避免實際發生這樣的事情，如果真實發生了，那不得了耶！18萬噸的天然氣耶！我剛剛一開始為什麼給你看一個10萬噸級船的例子？只是10萬噸級的船就承載不了，花4個小時用4艘拖吊船去吊啊！而且它還不是碰撞而只是閃躲喔！"],["陳部長世凱：就是模擬的狀態之後會有一些狀況，那就這個狀況，其實臺灣港務公司也有提出一些未來可以改進的方向，跟他們講要怎麼做未來會更安全，這是模擬的意義啦。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長要很清楚的表達，最近如果開環評會議的時候，交通部要清楚的表達你們對這個事情的後續還有它危險性的處理方式，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們一定會提出來。"],["張委員啓楷：這個非常明確，這是第一個，答案是有的。他們提出兩點很重要的事，剛才說的是有可能會碰撞，另外提出的第二點是四接如果真的做好，等天然氣的船進去之後，會影響到港內的卸貨跟整個繫泊作業，請問他們提出這點之後，你們有沒有去做怎麼樣的改善和如何因應？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，提出來這個之後，其實我們因應的方式就是它未來是在外港，不會進內港，LNG船會在外港，並不會進來裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：雖然它是在外面，但卸貨的時候終究還是必須要進來啦！就是它現在有一個河堤這樣進來。"],["陳部長世凱：它是在靠外面的那個地方，不會進到內港，我們不會讓它進到內港，在外接駁就可以。"],["張委員啓楷：OK！所以是在外港卸貨，這是第一個。第二個是我們在2021年的9月份發生了基隆港碼頭起重機吊臂墜落事件，大家可能還記憶猶新，心有餘悸！那天你們交通部提出了一個提醒，說當天然氣運輸船靠港卸貨的時候，旁邊如果有大型的郵輪或者大型的船經過，就會有海浪的興波作用，這很危險啊！這是專家王國材王前部長講的，這是很危險的事情啊！所以你們提醒會不會重演2021年9月份碼頭起重機整個吊臂墜落的事情，這個叫興波作用，那也只有兩種解決方案喔，第一個是那時候大的船就不要進來，可是這樣就完蛋了。臺灣有那麼多國際的觀光船、郵輪都要停泊在基隆港，可是因為四接，要避免天然氣船出現問題，所以你要減少或者讓國際郵輪不要到基隆港去，那基隆就完蛋了！臺灣的觀光旅遊也會受到非常大的波及，對不對？這是第一個，那會有一個方法，就是你一定要注意到它的安全嘛！你們後續有做了怎麼樣的檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實這些都是事先提醒，在環評的時候，我們都會把這些意見提供出來，未來當然就會避免，包含第一、它不可以在尖峰的時間進來，不要影響到我們一般商船的營運；第二、在惡劣的氣候下它也不能夠進來，這個到時候我們也都會做限制。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這樣談下來，你看為了一個四接，對基隆港的發展、經濟的發展和觀光的衝擊有多大！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們現在的提醒為的就是未來不要造成影響……"],["張委員啓楷：所以如果四接不要做在那裡，基隆還有全臺灣的觀光經濟就不會受影響啊！"],["陳部長世凱：它也可以做到沒有負面影響。"],["張委員啓楷：這是一個重要的決策關鍵點喔！所以本席今天一開始就在提，這是一個重要的關鍵點，今天談的是一個基隆港會不會滅港而且還是具有急迫性的問題，因為馬上就要做環評了！部長，你身為交通部部長，你要管觀光啊，對不對？而且這個牽扯到歷史悠久的整個基隆港的經濟發展、臺灣的經濟命脈、觀光的命脈，部長，你要保住喔！"],["陳部長世凱：這個沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：不要因為你沒有講話或者是嚴重的失職導致基隆港滅港。"],["陳部長世凱：我們不會讓它有負面的影響啦！負面影響發生之前，我們都會事先提醒並且事先避免。"],["張委員啓楷：今天我提的這三點要怎麼解決、該提醒的，在下次環評委員會開會時交通部一定要去講。"],["陳部長世凱：這個內容我們會提。"],["張委員啓楷：內容一定要講，這是一個。第二個，我更具體的提出三點，第一個，請部長責令港務局針對四接計畫興建期間跟完工以後，港區安全的維護跟保障問題，進行通盤的調查、研究跟規劃。這個一定會做嘛！下軍令狀，一定要做喔！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個是責令港務公司針對四接計畫實施以後，對基隆港的民用、商用、漁民生計──這會衝擊到漁民的生計喔──休閒旅遊還有整個運輸接駁等相關事務進行通盤的研究，而且要提出計畫。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["張委員啓楷：可以喔！這是第二個軍令狀。第三個是相關報告要限期完成，在完成之前，在相關的問題提出來並解決之前，我們等一下來討論什麼時間點要完成，針對四接計畫的環評等會議，基於保障基隆港的市民安全、生計以及全國運輸安全、環境保護的前提，交通部不能隨便點頭答應，可以做得到嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們尊重環評的程序和他們的討論。"],["張委員啓楷：不是，在沒有達到你剛剛講的這些之前，交通部不能點頭答應啊！對不對？當然如果解決了你的問題就可以啊！沒有解決的話，就如我剛才說的，基隆港就真的滅港了，對臺灣整個觀光、經濟都會造成衝擊。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會在環評的過程當中要求他們要承諾。"],["張委員啓楷：要求承諾喔？好，那我們來談相關報告你什麼時候可以給我？"],["陳部長世凱：兩個月的時間好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：兩個月？好，謝謝部長。這個事情真的很重要，部長當過發言人，算是能比較跨部會的去看這個事情，不能說國家為了天然氣一定要過、電一定要過，結果沒有注意到安全的問題，特別是對我們全國在經濟跟民生、觀光有那麼大貢獻的基隆港，我們一定要努力，不要因為錯誤的政策，特別是不要因為交通部該講的話沒有去講，環評一下就過了，四接就弄起來了，結果弄到後來基隆港滅港了，好不好？我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","接下來請高金素梅委員、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","有請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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但我今天針對幾個議題跟您請教一下第一個"},{"start":40.467,"end":49.582,"text":"我們現在淘機每天設定的來台灣的每天的班機大概多少?航班大概幾架?設定的。是不是850架?"},{"start":55.849,"end":71.228,"text":"八百五十架是目前的這個上限上限嘛對但實際上到目前為止每一天大概幾架平均大概在六百五、七百大概六百五到六百九啦還不到七百啦是就差了大概一百五十架左右其實這個都是損失啦"},{"start":71.588,"end":87.179,"text":"為什麼因為部長那個不是目標那是上限上限對不能超過那個對因為他上限850嘛所以代表說我們的容納實際上是可以到850因為我們有很多參數嘛包括就是停機坪的數量跑道的容量或者是航廈容量對"},{"start":87.839,"end":112.338,"text":"各方面都算完之後我們應該是可以達到850的上限但是實際上因為媒合的問題會有耗損率所以大概航空公司申請有的時間帶他又放棄或幹嘛最後大概就只有650到690等於是耗損率非常高大概差了150架左右這150架的航班就是非常多的機位這些機位都有可能是可以讓外國旅客坐了來台灣"},{"start":113.444,"end":136.218,"text":"那航空公司認為說我現在因為我們現在出國的人數比回國還多啊所以我要把我們的國人從國外載回來都已經可能沒位子我怎麼還有機會去載外國的旅客呢所以第一件事情是我覺得桃機應該要去思考把這個媒合的效率提高你至少不可能說讓讓那個每天即將搬機650到690啊"},{"start":137.779,"end":161.248,"text":"這實在是我覺得是一個很大的空間的浪費啦。不知道這能不能做到。跟委員報告一下我們每天850班是每天的航班的上限但是這個850班是每天全天24小時那基本上來講航空公司在安排航班的時候會配合他本身的航線特性去找這個時間所以"},{"start":162.688,"end":182.461,"text":"我們會有所謂的時間帶的一個申請跟分配這我都了解現在的問題是有的是你們因為參數的設定的問題他本來其他全部都符合但是就是因為卡到這個一個上限850架導致於申請不到反而讓我們的850也達不到我覺得這個是參數設定的問題這絕對有檢討的空間跟委員報告因為"},{"start":189.506,"end":215.601,"text":"監控的時間好的時段是每一個航空公司都想搶啦但是這個就會有它的一個限制所以有一個先來後到這樣的關係那基本上如果說沒有沒有有沒有調整的空間嗎你回答我這個問題嗎有沒有還是沒有辦法會滾動的調整時間帶的管理是每半年會來做檢討因為我們是看結果我們看結果我覺得你結果就是不好你應該要找出方法來啦"},{"start":217.284,"end":220.546,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":238.599,"end":242.523,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":255.097,"end":256.118,"text":"總經理你要負什麼責任嗎?要不要?"},{"start":273.392,"end":300.809,"text":"我如果可以找到,因為今天時間不夠,因為我還有別的議題要問。但如果我有機會,我利用集合管道提出解決方法,你要不要負責?要不要?跟委員報告,我們現在這個頒表是每半年會有冬季、夏季頒表。我都知道,你不要,因為我現在20分鐘我們就開一個研討會了啦。我今天是問一個態度,你有沒有要調整?對,這個部分我們來做調整。我也會跟桃集公司大家來做討論。怎麼樣再更優化,像委員所說的,如果有些參數的調整。部長,那你先給我們一個書面。"},{"start":302.33,"end":326.784,"text":"請他給我兩個禮拜給個書面檢討報告好不好?兩個禮拜那如果說到時候可以調整的話就總經理今天的態度在國會這樣一副吊噹噹的這種態度你怎麼處理?沒有啊他沒有要處理的意思啊他就是說這是因為什麼原因什麼原因什麼原因才造成這個狀況啊所以很應該啊人少沒進來無所謂啊態度就這樣啊只是想要更詳細的跟委員說明但是他有講到要滾動檢討"},{"start":328.045,"end":348.83,"text":"所以這個部分確實我們會做那兩個禮拜之內跟委員兩個禮拜之內一個完整要我們再來討論因為這個要講十幾分鐘啊這不可能三分鐘四分鐘講完我今天只要一個態度而已啊然後第二個就是現在很多旅館在反映喔因為今年明年1月1號開始準備要推一次性的備品了嘛對就是要廢除一次性備品"},{"start":349.77,"end":370.76,"text":"那現在還有人在講說未來有可能連瓶裝水都要求旅館不要提供這個是環境部環境部我知道因為這也是國際趨勢因為現在整個國際都在推ESG這我都了解但問題是現在網路上還有一般的民眾現在已經有個想法以為好像是只有國內的旅館是這樣子推甚至有人講說那這樣對國旅會雪上加霜"},{"start":371.3,"end":374.441,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":395.908,"end":413.413,"text":"但是你不能讓這種大家的輿論發酵好像是欸國內的旅館在找大家的麻煩其實這個對我們的國旅的發展也不利我現在只是說希望說觀光署可不可以訂一個宣傳的計畫就是跟國人講清楚當然你可以跟環境部要點錢啊或配合他們一起做宣傳"},{"start":414.933,"end":415.374,"text":"第三個問題,"},{"start":430.851,"end":448.457,"text":"以前在馬政府時代有一個觀光發展推動委員會我們簡稱叫政觀推不想知道嗎?我知道當時這個政觀推其實扮演了非常關鍵的推廣觀光的一個角色因為當時馬政府是想說我們用觀光立國希望能夠賺觀光外匯"},{"start":451.046,"end":470.188,"text":"當時因為很多部會他訂定策略之後跨部會的協調然後執行其實解決了很多問題比如說你可以直接在這個會上面要求勞動部解決一些勞力的問題你可以要求財政部針對通關的問題做更簡便你可以請其他的部會農業部看怎麼做農業觀光體育部可以做體育觀光"},{"start":471.149,"end":482.542,"text":"可是我覺得非常可惜就是這個觀光推就是觀光發展推動委員會在2021年因為疫情的關係就已經被取消了取消以後並沒有隨之而來的替代的跨部會的機制"},{"start":483.291,"end":503.924,"text":"那個時候好像當時的行政院是講說不然就由交通部或觀光署來協調可是我也知道部長你的困難度啊你是交通部長你能夠去協調速發部什麼事嗎他會理你嗎你可以協調遼東部做什麼事嗎你還是需要有更高位階的人來做一個協調跟推動而且很多時候是你上位者的思維跟部長思維不會一樣嘛"},{"start":504.764,"end":526.903,"text":"所以像類似這樣的一個觀光發展推動委員會其實大家希望可以再恢復至少要行政院長成績院長太忙的話副院長可以召開包委員我們下個月副院長就會來召開這樣子的會議所以有恢復是不是另外成立另外成立一個叫什麼會議另外成立一個也是同樣的叫觀光觀光諮詢會議觀光推廣諮詢會議"},{"start":529.785,"end":550.035,"text":"觀光推廣諮詢會議幾個月開一次?我們原則上是三個月開一次那因為組成這個委員的民間代表有21席那現在才確認嘛然後我們改變過去的做法就是大家發言以後再來組成題目那我們現在由這些委員提的意見"},{"start":551.095,"end":572.51,"text":"然後我們再分類那各部會已經有表示意見我們已經把它重新重整了大概就像部長講的下個月下個月召開趙建仁是誰?副院長目前是副院長就副院長陳琦就對了目前是副院長然後三個月會開一次原則上三個月會開一次那會請各部會地方政府一起來參加還有業者是不是?對地方政府沒有地方政府沒有為什麼地方政府不一起召來?"},{"start":573.05,"end":594.241,"text":"他是中央跟這個業界的一個因為之前的那個政官推是地方政府也可以參與嘛你們觀光署推觀光不可能把地方政府排除在外因為我們自己我們有觀光的22個觀光的局處首長我們是另外再開一個會然後再還有另外一個會就不能我都覺得如果一個會大家整合整合一起"},{"start":595.162,"end":604.432,"text":"因為怕議題為了提高那個議程的這個推動所以我們有很多是把它用分會的方式然後再提到大會來。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1455,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時17分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。今天討論觀光產業，我們都知道今年觀光逆差可能非常高，高達七千多億，年初那時候的交通部長設定一個來臺灣觀光客目標是1,200萬，看起來應該也跳票了。當然有一些方法，就看觀光署跟交通部願不願意做，但我今天針對幾個議題跟您請教一下。第一個，現在桃機設定每天來臺灣的班機大概是多少？航班大概幾架？設定的。"],["陳部長世凱：可以請董事長……"],["葉委員元之：是不是850架？"],["楊董事長偉甫：850架是目前的上限。"],["葉委員元之：上限嘛？"],["楊董事長偉甫：對。"],["葉委員元之：實際上到目前為止，每一天大概平均幾架？"],["楊董事長偉甫：大概在650、700。"],["葉委員元之：大概是650到690，還不到700。"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["葉委員元之：差了大概150架左右，其實這個都是損失，為什麼？因為……"],["陳部長世凱：那個不是目標，那是上限，不能超過那個……"],["葉委員元之：對，是上限。因為它上限850，所以代表我們容納實際上是可以到850，因為有很多參數，包括停機坪的數量、跑道的容量，或者是航廈容量，各方面都算完之後，我們應該是可以達到850的上限，但是實際上，因為媒合的問題會有耗損率，所以大概航空公司申請有的時間帶就放棄或幹嘛，最後大概就只有650到690，等於是耗損率非常高，大概差了150架左右，這150架的航班就有非常多的機位，這些機位都有可能可以讓外國旅客坐來臺灣。航空公司認為因為我們現在出國的人數比回國的還多，所以要把我們國人從國外載回來可能都已經沒位子了，怎麼還有機位去載外國的旅客呢？所以，第一件事情是我覺得桃機應該要去思考，把媒合效率提高，至少不可能每天起降班機650到690，我覺得這是一個很大的空間浪費，不知道這能不能做得到？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，能不能讓桃機總經理說明一下？"],["葉委員元之：好。"],["范總經理孝倫：跟委員報告一下，我們每天850班是每天航班的上限，但是這個850班是每天全天24小時，基本上來講，航空公司在安排航班的時候，會配合它本身的航線特性去找這個時間，所以我們會有所謂時間帶的申請跟分配。"],["葉委員元之：這我都了解，現在的問題是，有的是因為你們參數設定的問題，它可能其他全部都符合，但是就是因為卡到上限850架，導致於申請不到，反而讓我們的850也達不到，我覺得這個是參數設定的問題，這絕對有檢討的空間。"],["范總經理孝倫：跟委員報告，因為尖峰的時間、好的時段是每一個航空公司都想搶，但是這就會有它的一個限制，所以有一個先來後到這樣的關係。基本上，如果說……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，有沒有調整的空間嘛？你就回答我這個問題，有沒有？還是沒有辦法？"],["范總經理孝倫：我們會滾動調整，時間帶的管理是每半年會檢討。"],["葉委員元之：因為我們是看結果，我們看結果，我覺得結果就是不好，你應該要找出方法來。我覺得既然上限可以到850，本來就是應該要朝向850的目標，那你說差一點沒關係，但差到200架，一天850，然後你只有650，這也差太多了吧！"],["范總經理孝倫：跟委員報告，我們每一天的航班也會有高、有低，這也是航空公司本身的特性。"],["葉委員元之：看平均啦！如果您的態度是這樣的話，沒有要改的意思的話……"],["陳部長世凱：沒有，委員，我們說的是可以做得更好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我覺得你們同仁這麼官僚的回答，連調整都不願意調整。"],["陳部長世凱：可以啦！"],["葉委員元之：因為今天時間不夠，不然我可以好好跟你討論，但是實際上我們只是要一個交通部的態度。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，剛剛總經理有講，我們會滾動調整。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，總經理的意思就是這樣啊！我們很棒了啊！如果是這樣的話，大家以後也不用來這邊開會了嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您所提醒的就是可以做得更好。"],["葉委員元之：那他的態度就是已經很好啦！因為是航空公司的問題啊！我真的不相信啦，如果說我今天可以找到方法來解決的話，總經理，你要負什麼責任呢？要不要？因為今天時間不夠，我還有別的議題要問，但如果我有機會，我利用幾個管道提出幾個方法，你要不要負責？要不要？"],["范總經理孝倫：跟委員報告，我們現在這個班表是每半年會有冬季、夏季班表，持續滾動檢討。"],["葉委員元之：這我都知道，如果我有20分鐘，我們就開一個研討會了啦！我今天是問一個態度，你有沒有要調整？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，這個部分我們來做調整，我也會跟桃機公司大家來討論，怎麼樣再更優化，像委員所說的，如果一些參數的調整可以讓航班……這個我們來做。"],["葉委員元之：部長，先給我們一個書面，請他兩個禮拜給我一個書面報告，好不好？兩個禮拜。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：如果說到時候可以調整的話，總經理今天這個態度，在國會這樣一副吊兒郎當的這種態度，你怎麼處理？"],["陳部長世凱：他剛剛也說可以滾動式調整。"],["葉委員元之：沒有啊！他沒有要處理的意思啊！他就說因為什麼原因、什麼原因、什麼原因，才造成這個狀況啊！所以很應該啊！人少、沒進來無所謂啊！態度就這樣啊！"],["陳部長世凱：他只是想要更詳細的跟委員說明，但是他有講到要滾動調整，所以這個部分確實我們會做，兩個禮拜之內跟委員……"],["葉委員元之：兩個禮拜之內一個完整報告，我們再來討論。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為這個要講十幾分鐘，不可能3分鐘、4分鐘講完，我今天只是要一個態度而已啊！"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：第二個就是現在很多旅館在反映，因為明年1月1號開始準備要廢除一次性備品了。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["葉委員元之：就是要廢除一次性備品，但還有人說未來有可能連瓶裝水都要求旅館不要提供。"],["陳部長世凱：這個是環境部的要求。"],["葉委員元之：是環境部我知道，因為這也是國際趨勢，整個國際都在推ESG，這我都了解。問題是在網路上，還有一般民眾現在已經有個想法，以為好像只有國內旅館是這樣推，甚至有人說這樣對國旅會雪上加霜，乾脆出國好了。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這是國際趨勢，你也應該清楚。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，這我都知道，我沒有要苛責你的意思，我還沒講出我的訴求。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["葉委員元之：我只是希望觀光署或交通部這邊可以幫忙我們國內旅館做一點宣傳，要跟國人說這個東西是國際趨勢，就像你剛剛講的。"],["陳部長世凱：這個要。"],["葉委員元之：今天說國內不提供，我就跑出國去，但國外很多國家也是一樣的狀況嘛！但是不能讓這種輿論發酵，好像是國內旅館在找大家的麻煩，其實這個對我們國旅發展也不利，我現在只是希望觀光署可不可以訂一個宣傳計畫？就是跟國人講清楚，當然你可以跟環境部要點錢，或者配合他們一起做宣傳。"],["周署長永暉：我們會處理，這我們應該的。"],["陳部長世凱：我們應該要宣導，這個政策上面已經確定的，我們就來宣導，這樣對旅宿業者來講，也比較減少困擾。"],["周署長永暉：加強頻率，然後也多開幾個channel。"],["葉委員元之：希望可以多宣傳。","第三個問題，以前在馬政府時代有一個觀光發展推動委員會，我們簡稱政觀推，部長知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道。"],["葉委員元之：當時這個政觀推其實扮演了非常關鍵的推廣觀光的一個角色，因為當時馬政府是想我們用觀光立國，希望能夠賺觀光外匯。當時因為很多部會訂定策略之後，跨部會協調，然後執行，其實解決了很多問題，譬如說可以直接在這個會上面要求勞動部解決一些勞力的問題、可以要求財政部針對通關的問題更簡便、可以請其他部會，包括農業部怎麼做農業觀光、體育部可以做體育觀光，可是我覺得非常可惜，這個觀光發展推動委員會在2021年因為疫情的關係就已經被取消了，取消以後並沒有隨之而來替代的跨部會機制，好像當時的行政院是說不然就由交通部或觀光署來協調，可是我也知道部長的困難度啊，你是交通部長，你能夠去協調數發部什麼事嗎？他會理你嗎？你可以協調勞動部做什麼事嗎？你還是需要有更高位階的人來做一個協調跟推動，而且很多時候是上位者的思維跟部長思維不會一樣嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以類似這樣一個觀光發展推動委員會，其實大家希望可以再恢復，至少要有行政院長層級，院長太忙的話，副院長可以召開。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們下個月副院長就會來召開這樣子的會議。"],["葉委員元之：所以有恢復，是不是？"],["周署長永暉：另外成立。"],["葉委員元之：另外成立一個叫什麼會？"],["陳部長世凱：也是同樣的……"],["周署長永暉：觀光推廣諮詢會議。"],["葉委員元之：觀光推廣諮詢會議，幾個月開一次？"],["周署長永暉：我們原則上是3個月開一次，因為組成委員的民間代表有21席，現在才確認，然後我們改變過去的作法，就是大家發言以後再來組成題目，我們現在由這些委員提的意見，然後再分類，各部會已經有表示意見，我們已經把它重整了，就像部長講的下個月……"],["葉委員元之：下個月召開？"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["葉委員元之：召集人是誰？"],["周署長永暉：副院長。"],["陳部長世凱：目前是副院長。"],["葉委員元之：副院長層級就對了？"],["周署長永暉：部長跟副院長。"],["葉委員元之：然後3個月會開一次？"],["周署長永暉：原則上3個月會開一次。"],["葉委員元之：好，會請各部會、地方政府一起來參加，還有業者是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["周署長永暉：地方政府沒有。"],["葉委員元之：地方政府沒有，為什麼地方政府不一起找來？"],["周署長永暉：因為它是中央跟業界的一個……"],["葉委員元之：因為之前的政觀推是地方政府也可以參與，你們觀光署推觀光，不可能把地方政府排除在外。"],["周署長永暉：不會啦！因為我們自己有22個觀光局處首長，我們是另外再開一個會，然後再……"],["葉委員元之：還有另外一個會？我就覺得，如果一個會大家整合一起……"],["周署長永暉：因為怕議題……"],["葉委員元之：跨部會執行……"],["周署長永暉：為了提高議程的推動，所以我們很多是把它用分會的方式，然後再提到大會來。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝葉委員。","接下來有請羅明才委員，羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","羅智強委員、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","王美惠委員、王美惠、王美惠委員不在。","黃國昌委員、黃國昌、黃國昌委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決議：第一、報告及詢答完畢；第二、委員黃健豪、羅智強所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報；第三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料，或未及答復部分，請交通部，還有中華郵政（如果有的話）儘速以書面答復；第四、觀光署及所屬單位預算、觀光發展基金非營業預算、中華郵政營業預算等3項預算案，均另擇期進行處理，委員預算提案於12月25日（星期三）中午12點截止收件。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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今天要讓你看一看……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為連審計部都看不下去。臺灣觀光資訊資料庫查核報告裡面說，這些觀光多媒體資料有92%的資料沒有得到相關單位的授權，所以沒有辦法開放一般使用者查詢瀏覽，而且有非常多的缺失；也就是說，你做了一個網站，有很多的資料不能被查詢、不能被瀏覽，請問你做這個網站幹嘛？第二個，臺灣這麼多景點的資料，在一個網站上不能被查詢、不能被瀏覽，還被審計部糾正，這個網站是做來幹嘛？這是第二個。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：他們說已經改善了，但是我們再去看，裡面的英文網站還是沒有任何所謂的觀光遊憩主題相關業者資料。所以，部長，你今天看一看吧！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果這個這麼重要的數位化，我們是一個智慧臺灣的國家，這些這麼重要的資料竟然是查不到。最後我還要再講一下，我們有數發部不是嗎？相關的行銷資料你們做不到，可能要請人家幫忙吧！最重要的是，我們有沒有辦法讓國外的觀光客、國外的業者看到合法、可信，還有高品質的相關資料庫？現在問題是……"],["陳部長世凱：我們應該要提供，這個我們應該要提供。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為平臺完全……"],["周署長永暉：我們一直在充實，有一些copyright的問題，我們有跟幾個……"],["黃委員珊珊：你在充實，但是國外的人查不到你這資料庫，108年欸！現在113年，5年了，當時我相信在疫情的時候這很重要，現在可能又覺得不重要了，但是部長，這件事情我覺得非常簡單，如果我們要建立一個平臺，因為現在的民眾自己上去找資料、找訂房，你知道資料庫裡面還有一個網站叫做旅宿網，部長知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個我知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果上去旅宿網，我剛剛上去查了很久，我想查去日月潭的飯店，我怎麼查，給我的回答都是搜尋結果是零，它的搜尋連搜尋都做不到，我不知道它要怎麼樣……"],["周署長永暉：它的路徑不是這樣進入，但是委員這樣提醒的話，我們可以改變從路徑的部分去做處理，它是one-way的，不是two-way。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是說，如果我們一般人都是上Agoda，要上國外的這些旅遊網站去訂我們臺灣的飯店，我們的旅宿網站也是要加油啦！"],["周署長永暉：它的操作上不一樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：而且我們的觀光景點資料庫竟然沒有對外的英文promote，我實在不知道我們開放這個資料要幹嘛！","最後我給部長一個建議，因為現在的法國，他們是輔導所謂的旅遊新創業者，由新創業來做一個同業採購資訊平臺，其實是讓業者找到我們的資料，由國外的業者找到臺灣的業者、國外的業者找到我們所有data，它可以直接透過相關的平臺，我們可以直接聯繫，減少所謂中間轉介的費用，就像現在民眾會透過這些國際網站去訂房一樣，省掉了那些所謂的轉介費用。"],["陳部長世凱：好"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你去看一看，法國做得很好。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們朝這個方向來努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：法國的觀光應該是全世界最強的，好不好？"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後我們臺灣如果號稱數位產業、智慧臺灣，這個網站我只能跟你說不及格到極點。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們趕快來了解，檢討看怎麼做。"],["黃委員珊珊：尤其最好笑的是這個網站的瀏覽率不到觀光署官網的十分之一；也就是說，去看官網的人還比看這個網站的人多10倍，這個資源……"],["陳部長世凱：表示做得不夠好，這個部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：不是做得不夠好，是根本沒有人要上去查。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為，第一不友善，第二沒資料，第三，功能上面就像剛剛署長說的，我們不知道在提供什麼？最重要的是，如果透過數位，沒有相關國外的英文或其他語言的話，乾脆不要設了，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是哪門子的資料庫啊？部長，你要什麼時候給我一個簡單的回復？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們趕快去了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得等一下質詢結束，你上網看一看就知道什麼答案，我希望，第一，要把2025年你們接下去的計畫，怎麼樣用這個東西加入你們所謂的……"],["周署長永暉：對，要轉化成可以用的溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，隨便一個新創業者做的網站都會比你好，最重要是現在請部長去查一下觀光署跟委外建置維護的所有系統，我希望看到你的營運成果報告。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["周署長永暉：好，我們所有的辦事處也都有，獨立的……"],["黃委員珊珊：也都有，但是沒有整合、不好使用，或者是對臺灣所有的東西、data，並沒有完善的放在裡面，那真的還不如一個國際網站，好嗎？"],["周署長永暉：好。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，上去看一看，旅宿網跟這個資料庫都不及格。"],["陳部長世凱：我知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：到年底沒有幾天了，我希望在明年開議之前，這個東西再上去看，至少要比現在好，請部長處理，好嗎？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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13:07:54","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2024-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長及桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長就「如何提升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光署及所屬單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─觀光發展基金分預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。\n【僅進行詢答；第二案至第四案委員預算提案於12月25日中午12時前截止收件】【12月18日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-18","start_time":"2024-12-18T12:58:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-18T13:07:54+08:00","duration":572,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.927218750000002,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.83409375,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.68534375,"end":68.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.40846875,"end":115.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.91159375000001,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.73721875,"end":163.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.92971875,"end":166.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.40159375000002,"end":171.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.06784375,"end":176.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.06659375,"end":178.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.83846875,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.28221875000003,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.29909375000003,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.34534375,"end":203.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.64034375,"end":206.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.37409375000001,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.48221875000002,"end":221.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.80659375000002,"end":221.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.27909375000002,"end":221.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.53221875000003,"end":223.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.45596875,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.36659375000002,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.24221875,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.03284375000004,"end":261.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.89721875000004,"end":261.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.96471875000003,"end":292.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.98096875000005,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.55034375,"end":296.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.76096875,"end":298.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.58346875,"end":301.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.37659375000004,"end":300.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.51971875000004,"end":301.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.53659375,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.87409375000004,"end":304.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.96659375,"end":305.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.04221875,"end":309.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.05846875000003,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.95284375,"end":316.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.56846875,"end":313.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.63596875,"end":315.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.72409375,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.52534375000005,"end":320.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.65159375,"end":365.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.35346875000005,"end":371.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.56784375,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.55909375000005,"end":381.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.67721875,"end":373.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.77721875000003,"end":385.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.94159375000004,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.88221875000005,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.58596875,"end":395.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.04096875000005,"end":399.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.22596875000005,"end":404.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.03534375000004,"end":404.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.05221875,"end":406.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.08596875,"end":413.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.45159375000003,"end":420.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.51784375000005,"end":424.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.12909375000004,"end":426.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.16284375000004,"end":430.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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絕對沒有絕對沒有絕對沒有好OK那沒關係那大致上如果有的話大約目前是七十幾萬到八十幾萬的這個移台移工在台人數那其中有一萬人口左右是本席這邊收到的消息那本席還是會後再跟你討論好了好好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1301,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時58分）謝謝召委！有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。我知道部長很認真，有時候還在高鐵上看到你前往各縣市視察。針對觀光以及來臺旅遊的人數，當然前面許多委員都有提到，本席在1月19號的時候有給你一個國民黨智庫國政基金會提供的建言書，現在是12月18號了，想請教一下，在看完那時候所提供的建議書之後，你覺得有什麼部分會去做一個改進？或是在觀光部分的策略上提供一個簡短的具體回應。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其中提到的觀光資源整合不足部分，我們最近跟觀光署都有在做檢討；數位技術應用不足的部分，其實目前正在努力推進當中，不過還是不夠，這個我們會繼續做；至於國際宣傳的力道，這個跟預算當然也有關係，但我們現在宣傳的方向可能會稍稍做調整，例如說有很多委員在建議，就是有一些網紅或者是一些有流量的藝人等等之類的，可能會比更大型的這些宣傳效果還好一點點，那我們的比例上可能也會來做調整。至於法規的部分，我們應該也會檢討，尤其是業者或者是相關公協會有來反映說哪些法規跟不上時代了該修，我們會來修。"],["游委員顥：本席還是希望，針對五大觀光挑戰，如果都已經有充分檢討的話，是不是提供給本委員會一份書面資料？就是針對這五個的具體內容。"],["陳部長世凱：好，可以。"],["游委員顥：接下來本席還是要針對雙城論壇的部分，部長，未來你有沒有可能考慮，為了我們臺灣的觀光產業親赴大陸一趟，邀請大陸人也可以來臺灣做觀光旅遊？"],["陳部長世凱：當然，推廣觀光的部分是交通部很重要的責任，所以如果有需要到什麼地方去推廣觀光，我們都很願意去做，如果有效的話，我們都願意去做。"],["游委員顥：所以部長，你願意赴陸溝通這個政策就是了？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分也要看兩岸的政治氣氛……"],["游委員顥：你知道過去有部長去中國大陸做政策溝通，你有印象嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我之前是沒有印象。"],["游委員顥：其實是有的，包括羅瑩雪法務部長也曾經親赴大陸溝通過共同打擊犯罪的部分。所以部長如果可以的話，往前包括陳菊，還有包括賴清德總統、包括謝長廷、包括蔡英文等，他們都曾經赴陸過，你有去過中國大陸嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我以前有去過。"],["游委員顥：有去過哪些城市？"],["陳部長世凱：廣東、上海。"],["游委員顥：所以在這次雙城論壇，像他們這次所提到之後會來臺灣旅遊的部分，交通部這邊也準備好了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：其實臺灣一直都很歡迎所有的觀光客來臺灣，都有準備。"],["游委員顥：直接問，剛才許多委員也提到禁團令，其實中間雖然有短暫的兩個月開放，但事實上，自疫情期間開始，這個禁團令到現在差不多是4年10個月了，預計什麼時候可以打開這個禁團令？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們滾動在檢討，但是沒有一個預定的時間表，因為雖然大家今天在討論說對岸有準備要開放團客來臺灣的部分，但也都還沒有定案，所以我現在也沒有辦法很確定地跟委員報告。"],["游委員顥：關於滾動檢討，其實本席就是要針對滾動檢討這個部分，相關講法在之前的報導上，或是在今天的回應上，其實大家聽到的都是差不多的內容，這個部分等於透過一個媒體去呼籲，但是本席要直接就教部長，今年有曾經與陸委會主委或是國安會秘書長針對禁團令這個議題，還有交通部部長這邊，從你就任到現在有沒有主動提出或是主動針對這個議題實際討論過？"],["陳部長世凱：有，我們有交換過意見。"],["游委員顥：交換意見在什麼時候、什麼樣的一個會議上？餐會不算喔！"],["陳部長世凱：不是餐會，正式的會議其實有一、兩次。"],["游委員顥：那是一個什麼樣的會議？"],["陳部長世凱：就是我跟陸委會主委約碰面的……"],["游委員顥：那時候陸委會……"],["陳部長世凱：我們有很多議題在討論。"],["游委員顥：這是其中一項？"],["陳部長世凱：不只是這個議題，這是其中一項。"],["游委員顥：本席是要表示，這個禁團令、限團令，像剛才洪孟楷委員所提到，許多旅行業者，包括相關民宿業者，他們還是會需要兩岸去做一個正常的交流，如果說今天限團令、禁團令的部分，它還是停在一個沒辦法實際上有共識、有進展的情況，這個議題等同於一直不會開放。當然這個問題也不是出在於部長您，但我是在想，如果今天有心、有意為了我國臺灣，包括旅遊、觀光的部分能夠提升的話，其實是需要實質討論的。陸委會，包括國安會秘書長，你也有針對這個部分跟他討論過嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們碰面的時候有講到……"],["游委員顥：他們在兩岸的各種管道上，有實際上要來討論，或是釋出善意的問題嗎？除了媒體放話之外。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我就不曉得，他們怎麼溝通我是不太清楚。"],["游委員顥：所以你等於是表達了希望解除禁團令的看法嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：我們當然希望促進觀光，在觀光的部分，我們希望能夠……"],["游委員顥：切入的角度是表達希望能夠解除這個禁團令嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：也是在了解啦！也是在了解在目前的狀況底下，國安單位對這件事情的看法是怎麼樣，我們還在了解。"],["游委員顥：本席還是要表達，交通部的立場應該是希望解除這個禁團令才對，當然應該責任不在你，如果今天你表達了這個立場，第一要先確定是明確的，你是表達這個立場沒錯嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：我希望整個觀光能夠有更多的人，包含他們來這邊、包含我們過去。"],["游委員顥：所以你要提出這個需求，陸委會才要去溝通啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們都有提出這樣的檢討。"],["游委員顥：對，所以你是有提出這樣的檢討，希望解除禁團令嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有說一定要解除禁團令，我們是希望對岸可不可以趕快解除他們的禁團令，我們比較希望是這樣。"],["游委員顥：所以這都是對等的。那我們來看一下數據，在馬英九執政時期，來臺的人數幾乎都是兩、三百萬人，甚至到400萬人。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["游委員顥：所以今天來講，這個真的是無解，如果今天你要表達這個立場，你是要先站在希望能夠解除這個禁團令，還有讓兩岸之間有一個正常的交流、還有正常的觀光旅遊，陸委會要適度的直接去溝通這個議題，那你知道陸委會主委有沒有實際上在溝通這個議題？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我還真的是不曉得。"],["游委員顥：不曉得嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不曉得。"],["游委員顥：所以說交通部表達立場，但是陸委會主委卻沒有溝通這個議題嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：或許有啦，但是這個部分進展到什麼情況，我們不曉得。"],["游委員顥：如果有的話，因為這個議題重要，他要透過什麼樣的管道，除了媒體之外？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我不知道他們有什麼管道，或是海基會有什麼管道我不知道……"],["游委員顥：好啦！本席還是要提出，像你剛才看到這個圖，以前不管是陳菊或賴清德總統，都曾經去中國大陸交流互訪，如果以這個問題來講，停留在媒體上面說要對岸怎麼樣，臺灣這邊怎麼樣，但如果這邊不主動出擊的話，這個問題就無解！在明年要達到的來臺目標，我相信其實還是困難重重。最後，在來臺的部分，我們等一下直接就教署長，這個部分來臺的人數這700萬人有沒有包含移工的數據在裡面？"],["周署長永暉：當然沒有。只要停留臺灣超過90天，我們就不列入來臺數。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係！本席這邊所收到的消息是東南亞移工來臺的部分涵蓋在目前這個數據裡面。"],["周署長永暉：絕對沒有。"],["游委員顥：絕對沒有？"],["周署長永暉：絕對沒有。"],["游委員顥：OK！那沒有關係。如果有的話，目前大約是七十幾萬到八十幾萬的移工人數在臺，其中有1萬人口左右是本席這邊收到的消息，本席還是會後再跟你討論好了，謝謝。"],["周署長永暉：好。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝游委員，接下來有請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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佔的穆斯林人數大概是多少?像泰國的話,它有將近700萬是穆斯林。其實像泰國是一個佛教國家,它仍然有很高的比例。除了我們剛才談到的這些穆斯林國家的人口數,其中最多的是印度尼西亞、巴基斯坦、"},{"start":139.396,"end":166.423,"text":"還有印度、孟加拉、馬來西亞。這樣子算下來大約的人數是8億以上。那部長和署長知道哈拉跟清真它的差異在哪裡嗎?這個我不知道,署長知道嗎?哈拉和清真,因為剛才署長有提到在…對,所以有一個是,我們是中文的翻譯不同啦。那他們不吃的食物有哪,主要是哪一個?"},{"start":168.394,"end":170.255,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署及所屬單位預算"},{"start":187.411,"end":200.869,"text":"就是認證的部分是來自於不同的管道的認證所以哈拉的認證是一個認證那穆斯林回教認證是另外一個認證我們先看到哈拉餐廳他主要都要他所有的食材都要通過有一個是中央廚房哈拉"},{"start":201.63,"end":226.387,"text":"阿拉認證那穆斯林餐廳是穆斯林開設的餐廳那穆斯林友善的餐廳他是可以賣穆斯林他們禁止飲食的餐廳但需要經過嚴密的區隔阿拉認證的部分跟委員報告一下就是在我們叫做在做這個生命結束的時候他要送送可蘭金是對他是很嚴謹的SOP是對"},{"start":227.368,"end":251.867,"text":"所以一般來講哈拉認證的餐廳的要求是比較高是那我們進來台灣我們要發展觀光那本席要舉幾個例子給部長還有署長知道我們來看到那這間位於宜蘭的餐廳他是穆斯林友善的認證的餐廳那當就我們從照片來看他本身也有販賣豬肉沒有做到區隔處理食材那看起來要他們要做區隔也是不容易的那我們再看到另外一家餐廳"},{"start":253.653,"end":281.216,"text":"這也是位於宜蘭的餐廳他一樣也是穆斯林友善認證的餐廳他一樣也有販售豬肉他真的能做到食材區隔嗎那我們再看下一家苗栗的餐廳他也是同樣他是穆斯林友善認證那他也有販售豬肉那我們再看到另外一家嘉義的餐廳他也是獲得穆斯林友善的餐廳但一樣也有販賣豬肉那部長署長這樣子會不會太離譜了如果是有具體的話我們就要求下架"},{"start":281.716,"end":305.644,"text":"那這還不是最離譜的,我們來看什麼是最離譜的。對,他們有一些很嚴格的要求的。是,我們看到還有一個位於嘉義縣的餐廳,它是在觀光署的網站上面有公布,它也是唯一一家獲得HALA餐廳認證的。那餐廳是不可以出現豬肉的嘛,它是最嚴謹的。結果它的菜單有什麼,署長部長您有看到嗎?有,有看到豬肉。有看到豬肉。對,那這樣子,"},{"start":309.422,"end":311.743,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":325.049,"end":326.489,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":344.135,"end":364.067,"text":"我們再盤點一下我又要跟22個縣市政府他們再討論一下是全面清查那如果這個個案的部分我們馬上下架馬上下架對對我們要查證一下馬上下架那為什麼會有這麼離譜的事情因為我們的餐廳也確實有百頁啦那很多人對牧師的認知啊也不是那麼嚴謹"},{"start":365.568,"end":369.849,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":389.373,"end":411.931,"text":"所以有些穆斯林的餐廳他只要這樣：主席像署長您提到有些人他吃過邊疏那有些是完全過完瓢盆他都不能使用到那這些就是我們所提到的像哈拉跟清真他們也是非常嚴謹的去做去的對我們講說屠宰的過程中還要送金然後很嚴格的標準是那這個我想說這個還是要按照穆斯林的要求標準來做"},{"start":413.332,"end":420.884,"text":"為什麼會有這麼離譜的是那剛才這六間餐廳他都是透過伊斯蘭商務發展有限公司所論證那部長和署長你們可以看到這個他們這兩張圖的差異性嗎?"},{"start":426.066,"end":427.827,"text":"三天就可以查證了,這看起來在台北嘛。"},{"start":452.879,"end":473.157,"text":"委員所講的這個個案,他們可以快速來查證。因為這是外貿協會嘛,所以我們馬上就直接去跟他們聯繫。因為那個在觀光署的網站上面,他是不是參考台灣清真的推廣中心的網站,他們已經有宣告,就是不擔保網站內容的正確性,觀光署也要對網站內容來做檢討。"},{"start":474.598,"end":491.236,"text":"我們也看到這個對外的貿易發展協會他們也有提出在110年的時候5月6號發文他的發文字號是為外專制第1102301234號他的內容有提到就是他們為了要配合清真寺或是回教團體認證請教長簽名"},{"start":494.119,"end":495.62,"text":"三天內一定忙,跟委員回報一下。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1240,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時49分）謝謝主席！有請交通部陳部長還有觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請陳部長和周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好、署長好。先請教部長及署長，你們本身有宗教信仰嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有。"],["周署長永暉：有。"],["邱委員若華：兩位都有，基於對宗教信仰要保持尊重的態度，所以本席不會多問，今天要和部長還有署長討論觀光的部分，本席想針對其中穆斯林認證的問題就教於部長還有署長。本席看到觀光署從2011年開始，每年都有編列小額的預算委託中國回教協會推動清真的認證，署長，您知道嗎？"],["周署長永暉：我們全力在推動，但預算有限，我們有兩個協會，一個回教協會，一個穆斯林協會。"],["邱委員若華：本席也看到從2017年起，蔡政府當時就有推動新南向政策，穆斯林友善環境也是重點政策項目，經濟部國貿局也委託外貿協會成立臺灣清真推廣中心，署長，沒錯吧？"],["周署長永暉：對，因為它的主管機關是經濟部，所以我們是拜託相關的，包括餐廳、廚房的認證。"],["邱委員若華：伊斯蘭友善環境是否符合標準是由外貿協會來做認定嗎？"],["周署長永暉：要看是什麼態樣，因為基本上用餐是一個很重要的，還有一個是空間──祈禱室。"],["邱委員若華：是很重要，目前觀光署是負責編列預算嗎？"],["周署長永暉：我們只是輔導。"],["邱委員若華：部長和署長知道新南向政策的國家主要有哪一些嗎？"],["周署長永暉：我們說的新南向包括東協10國、南亞6國再加上紐、澳兩國。"],["邱委員若華：各國所占穆斯林的人數大概是多少？署長，您知道嗎？"],["周署長永暉：像泰國的話，有將近700萬是穆斯林，其實泰國是一個佛教國家，但它仍然有很高的比例。"],["邱委員若華：署長，我們剛才談到這些國家的穆斯林人口數，其中最多的是印度尼西亞、巴基斯坦，然後還有印度、孟加拉、馬來西亞，這樣子算下來大約的人數是8億以上。部長和署長知道哈拉（HALAL）跟清真的差異在哪裡嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我不知道，署長知道嗎？"],["邱委員若華：因為剛才署長有提到在飲食的部分。"],["周署長永暉：在認證上，我們是中文的翻譯不同。"],["邱委員若華：他們不吃的食物主要是哪一種動物？什麼肉類？署長應該要知道。"],["陳部長世凱：不吃豬肉。"],["邱委員若華：不吃豬肉！我們目前看到有分哈拉餐廳還有穆斯林餐廳、穆斯林友善餐廳，署長，您分得出來嗎？"],["周署長永暉：就是認證的部分是來自於不同管道的認證，所以哈拉的認證是一個認證，穆斯林回教認證是另外一個認證，有一個是要有中央廚房。"],["邱委員若華：我們先看哈拉餐廳，它所有的食材都要經過哈拉認證，穆斯林餐廳是穆斯林開設的餐廳，至於穆斯林友善餐廳則是可以賣穆斯林他們禁止飲食的餐飲，但需要經過嚴密的區隔。"],["周署長永暉：哈拉認證的部分，跟委員報告一下，就是在生命結束的時候要誦可蘭經，有很嚴謹的SOP，所以一般來講哈拉認證餐廳的要求是比較高。"],["邱委員若華：既然我們臺灣要發展觀光，那本席要舉幾個例子給部長還有署長知道。我們來看這間位於宜蘭的餐廳，這是一間穆斯林友善的認證餐廳，我們從照片來看，這家餐廳也有販賣豬肉，沒有做到區隔處理食材，看起來他們要做區隔也是不容易的；我們再看另外一家餐廳，這也是位於宜蘭的餐廳，一樣也是穆斯林友善認證的餐廳，一樣也有販售豬肉，他們真的能做到食材區隔嗎？我們再看下一家苗栗的餐廳，這家同樣有穆斯林友善認證，也有販售豬肉；我們再看另外一家位於嘉義的餐廳，這也是獲得穆斯林友善認證的餐廳，但一樣也有販賣豬肉。部長、署長，這樣子會不會太離譜了？"],["周署長永暉：如果是有具體事證的話，我們就要求下架。"],["邱委員若華：這還不是最離譜的，我們來看什麼是最離譜的。"],["周署長永暉：他們有一些很嚴格的要求。"],["邱委員若華：我們看到還有一家位於嘉義縣的餐廳，是在觀光署網站上面有公布，它也是唯一一家獲得哈拉認證的餐廳，是不可以出現豬肉的，應該是最嚴謹的，結果它的菜單有什麼？署長、部長有看到嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有看到豬肉。"],["邱委員若華：對，有看到豬肉。那這樣子是什麼樣的問題？為什麼唯一獲得哈拉認證餐廳的菜單上……"],["周署長永暉：因為我們不清楚它的空間，它也許沒有那麼嚴格區隔A區、B區，我怕有這種情況，我們來對個案瞭解一下。"],["邱委員若華：本席在一剛開始就有提到，面對宗教文化、餐飲文化我們必須要尊重，對於這個認證我們也應該要嚴謹，這些新南向國家觀光客來到臺灣，他們在挑選餐廳時也會特別的嚴謹，但現在我們看到在觀光署網站上面……"],["周署長永暉：我們會全面清查。"],["邱委員若華：全面清查，那清查的報告什麼時候可以出來？"],["周署長永暉：我們再盤點一下，我也要跟22個縣市政府再討論一下，要全面清查；至於這個個案的部分，我們馬上下架。"],["邱委員若華：馬上下架？"],["周署長永暉：對，我們要查證一下，馬上下架。"],["邱委員若華：那為什麼會有這麼離譜的事情呢？"],["周署長永暉：因為我們的餐廳也確實有百業，我們對穆斯林的認知也不是那麼嚴謹，那餐廳用餐的部分有分四類，有一種是比較開放式的，就是鍋碗瓢盆是獨立的，所以他那個也不見得說一定要如何，我舉個例子，比如我們很多長輩會在初一、十五吃素，那他就完全不沾葷，所以他的鍋碗瓢盆是獨立的，所以有些穆斯林的餐廳只要這樣就可以。"],["邱委員若華：就像署長您提到的有些人他吃鍋邊素，有些人是他的鍋碗瓢盆都不能沾葷，這些就是我們所提到的哈拉跟清真，他們也是非常嚴謹的去做區隔。"],["周署長永暉：對，我們講到屠宰的過程中還要誦經，然後有很嚴格的標準，我想這個還是要按照穆斯林的要求標準來做。"],["邱委員若華：那為什麼會有這麼離譜的事？剛才這6間餐廳都是透過伊斯蘭商務發展有限公司做的認證，部長和署長你們可以看到這兩張圖的差異性嗎？"],["周署長永暉：這個投影不是那麼清楚，但都有license的期限。"],["邱委員若華：這兩張license不同之處在於一張的下面沒有教長簽名，為什麼會有這樣的情況發生呢？請署長說明。"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員，我們需要去查證一下。"],["邱委員若華：還需要去查證？什麼時候可以查證清楚？"],["周署長永暉：馬上，我們3天就可以查證了，看起來這是在臺北。"],["陳部長世凱：委員所講的這個個案可以快速來查證。"],["周署長永暉：因為這是外貿協會主管的，所以我們馬上就直接去跟他們聯繫。"],["邱委員若華：因為在觀光署的網站上面也參考臺灣清真推廣中心網站的宣告，就是不擔保網站內容的正確性，觀光署也要對網站內容做檢討。我們也看到對外貿易發展協會在110年5月6號發文，發文字號是「外專字第1102301234號」，內容提到他們為了要配合清真寺或是回教團體認證，要請教長簽名，那我們剛剛也看到有一張上面是沒有簽名的，也請署長回去再做瞭解。"],["周署長永暉：好，我們3天內一定跟委員回報。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝署長，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來有請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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in那請問一下我幾點要出發我三點要搭坐車"},{"start":328.052,"end":332.796,"text":"到桃園機場沒有高鐵座啊所以我等個晚上不用睡覺"},{"start":334.144,"end":359.718,"text":"我等於提早能夠出發對我來說我就是不用睡覺來換這對旅客來說是一個很痛苦的事情到底check in的時間能不能提前縮短這部分來做一個研擬到後續我們拿到行李這個部分能不能縮短時效這部分我希望桃園機場是不是未來能夠給我們一個機會把這個部分來做一個專案然後來做一個檢討"},{"start":360.618,"end":365.864,"text":"三點出發我之前出國也是這樣子經驗一模一樣一模一樣當然就是整夜不用睡嘛尤其要帶小朋友小朋友也更辛苦一點我曾經有一次為了這樣子我八點吃安眠藥啦"},{"start":379.278,"end":381.361,"text":"所以我們一直在努力嘛之前我就在講台中人盼著虎航日本線希望已經幻滅啦明年呢"},{"start":399.241,"end":421.589,"text":"明年呢?台中武航?我想台中武航這個部分還是希望不要只飛兩個夏季航班然後又不飛。台中人要的是定期穩定的航班而不是夏季限定的航班。這個部分我想多方來做檢討。當然桃園機場可以再做一個檢討部分。我們台中機場是不是能夠增加更多的航線?能夠彌補這些時差?"},{"start":423.69,"end":438.905,"text":"這個都是我們要努力的但是我剛剛所提到的臺中要增加航班航線桃園機場是不是能夠縮短這些時間能夠讓旅客出門的時候開心而不是第一天很痛苦第一天只想到飯店效率上的提高是必然要做的"},{"start":439.225,"end":467.531,"text":"這個部分您願意同意後續你會再追蹤這個部分嗎?審計部的報告寫得很清楚喔心理轉盤等的時間高達一個小時8000多班次能看嗎?桃機針對這個議題其實也會來做精進他們針對地勤也好或者航空公司會找來再開會再做精進的計畫我想時間有限我不想再念網路上的一些文章跟抱怨文其中不乏有地勤人員的一些抱怨文"},{"start":468.231,"end":468.311,"text":"我們來請進,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時30分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長來自臺中，尤其烏日是你的選區。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：希望部長時時刻刻都可以心中有臺中，有幾個問題要請教部長，我們今年10月15日有針對臺中高鐵娛樂城興建國道一號匝道的可能性，江啟臣副院長有在辦公室幫我們召開一個會議，部長有出席，應該還有印象吧？"],["陳部長世凱：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當中有幾個事項想問一下，辦理的進度有沒有遇到困難？第一、關於國道一號新增匝道連接高鐵特區的初步評估作業，請問可行性的評估辦理了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分的可行性評估要由地方來申請。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想當時講到100萬的評估經費，剛剛雪生委員講一個500萬，他比較資深，我比較菜，沒關係，我要100就好了，我想這個評估經費100萬，交通部是不是能夠幫忙一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個評估的經費，大家各方都有一定的計畫跟一定的比例……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我還是真的要在這邊爭取……"],["陳部長世凱：地方政府要提出來，如果他們提出來，我們會協助……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想他們一定可以提出計畫，但是這個評估的經費，只要他們願意提出，是不是中央可以幫忙協助一下？"],["陳部長世凱：但是我跟委員再報告一件事，目前那個娛樂城，他們自己對於周邊整體的交維計畫，他們自己有一筆預算，目前也交給臺中市政府，正在做整體的計畫。其實我是比較建議，那個整體的計畫做完之後，如果哪裡真的有需要，我們就來做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，沒關係，如果他們提出其他的計畫，希望你可以幫忙，你可以幫忙協助嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們會來協助。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝你的承諾。另外我想再跟你提到，我們面對后里麗寶樂園周邊的交通建設案，態度是100分，我們看到你們很積極的傾國家之力來辦理。但是現在面對高鐵娛樂城，我想不只是現在我們遇到的國一增加匝道，還有所謂的鐵路高架化，從烏日到新烏日，還有大慶、九德這個部分，之前你擔任議員的時候，我們也都有會勘過。","當時你是議員，是我的學長，我們會勘的時候應該是二十幾億高架化，到現在要五十幾億高架化，再不做會後悔。所以我想這個部分，中央有中央的規定，你們也多次跟我講，就是要按照現在的規定做這樣的財政分配，只能夠給予這樣的補助，我能夠體諒。但是你能不能跟我確定你們現在能夠補助多少？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個金額大家還要再細算，但目前的進度是這樣，中央對於這個建設是相當的支持……"],["羅委員廷瑋：願意支持嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：願意支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你公開承認你們支持，願意給予補助。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一定會全力支持烏日這段鐵路的高架化，目前對整個可行性研究地方正在修正，我們還在等他回文。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想不只是新烏日站升等為一級車站，還有大慶站到新烏日的高架化，我希望在農曆年前找一天，部長，我已經有跟你們辦公室講，我們是不是主動找一天去會勘，把整體的交通一併看到位，不管是高鐵娛樂城、新烏日，還有升級成一級站，或者是大慶車站的高架化，我們一起來看可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，現在還在立法院的會議期間，我們尊重委員會的安排。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那我另外跟你私下邀約，我們在非會議的時間，可不可以一起主動去會勘？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們等立法院這邊開完之後再來討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個麻煩你跟我排時間，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們之後再來約時間。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，另外部長我想請問，我們出國、回國都會遇到一個問題，行李轉盤等候行李的時間，請問你認為等行李這件事情等多久算合理？"],["陳部長世凱：多久算合理？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，你回國以後，等行李轉盤的行李。"],["陳部長世凱：對一般的旅客來說，如果到了行李轉盤的旁邊，等超過10分鐘就會覺得太久。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，跟大家分享，搭飛機到日本關西機場，等行李的時間大概20分鐘，那你知道從日本關西機場回到臺灣，等行李大概要等多久嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我不曉得。"],["羅委員廷瑋：前兩天我一個朋友出國回來，等了50分鐘。問題的癥結點在哪裡？我們先不要講我那個朋友，因為這可能是個案。我們來看審計部的資料，包括媒體都有報導，2023年5月至今年的3月，各班機抵達，行李經一個小時以上到行李轉盤的，共有8,612架次。其中有幾個原因，第一、來機晚到；第二、飛機管制；第三、班機調度；第四、嚴重暴增的原因是地勤作業。我沒有要責備地勤人員，但是地勤人員的人力不足，早就多次被媒體報導出來，我們是不是應該要解決這個問題？","另外我要再講的是，現在在場的所有人，你們有沒有出過國？大家有沒有這樣子的印象，我自己有一個感覺，我8點的飛機要飛日本，5點要到桃園機場，我恨不得在臺中就能搭機，但是不行，現在只能到桃園。我們現階段要出國就是3個小時前要到桃園機場check in，那請問一下我幾點要出發？我3點就要搭車到桃園機場，但沒有高鐵坐啊！所以我整個晚上不用睡覺。等於為了能夠提早出發，對我來說就是用不睡覺來換，這對旅客來說是很痛苦的事情，到底check in的時間能不能提前、縮短？對這部分來做一個研擬，到後續我們拿到行李的時間能不能縮短？","這部分我希望桃園機場是不是未來能夠對這個部分做一個專案，然後來做一個檢討，跟我們所有的委員分享？部長，您有沒有覺得心有戚戚焉？就是我剛剛講的這個部分。"],["陳部長世凱：有啦！您說的凌晨3點出發，我之前出國也是這樣的經驗，一模一樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你不覺得很痛苦嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：當然就是整夜不用睡，尤其要帶小朋友，小朋友也更辛苦一點。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我曾經有一次為了這樣，8點吃安眠藥，然後逼自己兩點就起床，我們選了這麼好的班次，想買這個飛機航票，結果苦的是我們自己。"],["陳部長世凱：一方面我們是希望臺中機場的航班跟航線可以多一些，大家就是不用往桃園跑。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們一直在努力嘛！之前我就在講，臺中人盼著虎航日本線，希望已經幻滅啦！明年呢？"],["陳部長世凱：明年會有新的航班，虎航也會再回來，這個沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想臺中虎航這個部分，還是希望不要只飛兩個夏季航班，然後又不飛，臺中人要的是定期、穩定的航班，而不是夏季限定的航班。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個部分我想要多方來做檢討，當然桃園機場有可以再檢討的部分，但我們臺中機場是不是能夠增加更多的航線，能夠彌補這些時差，這個都是我們要努力的。但是我剛剛所提到的，臺中要增加航班、航線，桃園機場是不是能夠縮短這些時間，讓旅客出門的時候開心，而不是第一天很痛苦，第一天只想到飯店。"],["陳部長世凱：效率上的提高是必然要做的，可以節省大家的時間。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個部分您願意同意，後續你會再追蹤這個部分嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：審計部的報告寫得很清楚喔！行李轉盤等的時間高達一個小時，八千多班次，能看嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，桃機針對這個議題其實也會來做精進，他們針對地勤也好或者航空公司，都會找來再開會，再做精進的計畫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想時間有限，我不想再唸網路上的一些文章跟抱怨文，其中不乏有地勤人員的一些抱怨文，他們的痛苦我都知道，我無意責怪。但人力的不足，以及到底有沒有什麼科技的方式，能夠輔助、幫助他們？在人不夠多的情況之下，你們又不協助去處理，然後就讓他們繼續苦命、勞累，最後不只是地勤受苦，旅客也受苦、國人也受苦，這個部分我希望你能夠重視。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來精進，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，接下來有請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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有就好了嘛是不是沒有機會嘛是不是部長你不要笑啊你心裡面也是講不啦主要是考慮到超大型那算超大型活動那我講了嘛你既然沒有大型超大型的話金門、馬祖、澎湖這是亞細亞的孤兒啊離島中的離島是不是"},{"start":297.001,"end":315.801,"text":"有其他的活動有其他活動那你們要準備補助我們馬祖今天要辦燈會你準備補助我們多少?如果地方舉辦的話我們通案是縣市政府的話是餘率可以兩百萬兩百萬辦什麼?買那個小孩子提的燈籠是不是?"},{"start":316.946,"end":327.188,"text":"不會啦,我們在這次的桃園的主燈裡面有一個設計也有馬祖的燈。沒有,我嚴肅的跟你報告,你最少要給500萬,因為你這裡都是3800萬,這幾個六都啊,都3800、3800從2020開始,每年都是3800、3800,你最少給500萬,你要不要給我承諾?"},{"start":347.571,"end":368.919,"text":"我過兩天要審理預算了,我準備把3800給他砍掉我跟你講,我內心的事情是這樣。朝委會不太開心,不要啦。朝委不會不開心,朝委一定支持我的,是不是?我們來立法院也是有個先來喝到,我想我們朝委對我是非常尊重,不是很尊重。"},{"start":371.288,"end":381.238,"text":"這樣子好不好,那個跟學生們報告一下,就是燈會的部分,我們跟連江縣政府提出來的時候,我們盡全力來協調。已經協調過了,是你們告訴他數字。"},{"start":385.819,"end":412.996,"text":"你應該叫他計畫提出來嘛,是350、400或是450、500,你告訴他我大概給你多少。我們來看一下是不是有等於是馬祖燈會以外的相關的周邊一起來。針對燈會齁,因為各縣市的比例其實都一樣。我知道,我現在講離島,我們離島永遠沒機會輪到對不對。你今天給馬祖五百萬,明年給金門五百萬,甚至更多一點,房屋更多一點,我都同意。"},{"start":413.596,"end":435.364,"text":"登會的部分就這樣,但其他的部分我們再來想辦法。從其他的部分來想辦法。這有預算的勒,每年都有預算,連續薪金費,每年都在編的勒,是不是?你要我對這個動手嗎?不要吧。我內心也不想,我也很掙扎。從周邊來協調。對,我們來協助,你能夠達成效果,這樣比較重要。會啦,會啦。從周邊來達成效果。你答應我至少給個500萬。"},{"start":441.021,"end":465.548,"text":"你點頭囉,這點頭你不是跟我...這不好說,我們從周邊來協助。我上來執行你就面帶微笑,對不對?內心的世界又是講不,或是研究。我不會協助馬祖先生,這個沒問題。好不好,你就給我個面子,不管怎麼樣給個五百萬。我希望風風光光的,我也快下台了,對不對?"},{"start":466.775,"end":495.373,"text":"做熱鬧一點好不好,你不要每年都這樣人人氣。我們也有管理處在那邊,林江縣政府的成就也是我們馬管處的成就。我們掛那個燈都不值啦,掛那個燈啦。馬管處另外的協助啦,馬管處會處理其他的。馬管處有他的經費?對啦,會處理另外的經費。你什麼東西都馬管處,馬管處有多少錢?去掉用人費沒剩多少錢啊?然後都是鐵的啊,鋼鐵啊鐵啊那不能吃的,都是資本門啊你知道嗎?"},{"start":496.494,"end":521.97,"text":"不能吃的,消耗不了好不好?署長有時候會協助。署長齁,你給五百萬齁,這個你答應我,你要做到齁。好,另外我又回頭到前天跟部長質詢的我們的包機,高雄到馬祖的包機齁。這個第三階段,署長我跟部長報告過囉,部長說要跟你商量啦齁。"},{"start":526.328,"end":536.08,"text":"我早上打電話去觀光署,他們說什麼兩百萬啊?他不知道有這麼一回事,也不知道前面給了我們多少,他也不知道。"},{"start":537.025,"end":561.307,"text":"怎麼可以這樣?部長回去,或是部長在那邊接受質詢,你們底下都沒聽。您直接打給署長,不用打給觀光署啦。不要打給觀光署?你直接打給署長就好。打給署長喔?是是是。署長你今年講說沒錢嘛對不對?我們一直擠啊一直擠啊,抽了兩百萬出來嘛對不對?那你明年新的預算錢太多太多啦,多少錢我跟你講齁?"},{"start":562.981,"end":573.008,"text":"各特色活動補助編列了3.35億,國外包機郵輪補助4623萬。這是非常多的活動,包括我們台灣觀光聯力還有我們各…3.35億,200萬在裡面是拔他一根毛而已啊,你瞭解沒有?"},{"start":590.635,"end":610.676,"text":"所以部長,我前天問部長,部長說還要跟你商量咧?我如果是部長的話,陳委員,不只兩百萬,給你三百萬。部長你要有這個gas、魄力嘛,對不對?你這樣我才瞧得起你啊,我已經很看得起你了,但是我希望你再加油好不好?好、好、好。這個、這個周署長。"},{"start":611.96,"end":640.561,"text":"第三階段的包機拜託您成全。我在20幾號在民航局我要主持,我跟許智傑委員共同主持馬高航線後續的事宜,要把它轉為固定航班。我們也希望促成。你不要光希望,你光希望有什麼用?大家都在希望,你也是一顆螺絲釘,你這個螺絲釘把它釘上去的話就固定了,好不好?把它變成固定航班。署長有沒有問題?"},{"start":641.92,"end":644.182,"text":"你們現在二十幾號要開會嘛,那就看會議的結論怎麼樣?會議結論,我是主席啊,我把結論先告訴你。"},{"start":668.626,"end":672.894,"text":"我已經把結論告訴你啦!看你要還是不要嘛!好不好?好啦,謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1045,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時18分）召委謝謝，時間暫停。我首先要跟我們交通部老部長王國材部長致意，我不會質詢你，還有我們那個龍哥啊！一起屬龍的，今年龍年犯太歲，我們大家生活起居都要小心。好，是不是請部長？"],["主席：好，陳部長，那王國材部長不要喔？"],["陳委員雪生：沒有、沒有，請陳部長，對不起。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我最近在觀察你，我發現你的優點，不管誰質詢你，不管哪位立委質詢你，你先面帶笑容，面帶笑容就是爭取善意對不對？就不會吵架，也不會兇你。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：但是你心裡面，回答的不是「不」就是研究，你太厲害了，有沒有這一招？你自己感覺呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我回答「不」的不多啦！"],["陳委員雪生：這樣子喔！另外是不是請觀光署署長？部長，最近臺北跟上海論壇，我這兩天有一個感觸跟想法，他們可以由副市長或是市長來這邊跟臺北市交流，我們也可以去和對方交流啊！你看最近馬祖連江縣的縣委書記還有馬尾的區委書記陸續到馬祖來參訪，他們是用次團體的名義過來，那我們也可以用次團體的名義過去啊！我想我們觀光署跟中國大陸應該沒有正常的管道，如果能夠由署長、副署長用觀光旅遊次團體的名義，帶著副理事長、理事長到對面去，正面跟他溝通嘛！","我剛從上海回來沒多久，上海他們那邊很希望來臺灣觀光，他說我們團不放，我們團沒有不放，我們王前部長也在場，他有放，他冒著風險放了，問題是大陸又不放，那你這樣子沒有一個交流的管道，這樣下去我覺得不是好事。我們拿錢去買觀光，你看拿很多的補助，讓韓國、東南亞國家的人進來對不對？這不是正道，部長，我覺得你可以向上面反映一下，好不好？有沒有這樣的想法？請你回答我。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們一些次團體，比如說公協會，其實他們跟對岸的交流都有在做，不是沒有。但是觀光署是比較官方的身分，或許對岸不一定接受，這個部分要先跟委員報告。"],["陳委員雪生：但是他們官方的過來我們接受啦！"],["陳部長世凱：我們其實都一直滿開放的。"],["陳委員雪生：我們也用官方的過去嘛！你起碼先試一下看看，你不試怎麼行咧！是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：我們探詢看看有沒有這樣的機會。"],["陳委員雪生：你看從8月、9月到現在，我們金門、馬祖開放了，來的人大概不到6,000人。"],["陳部長世凱：對，在馬祖的狀況是比較少，一天差不多100人。"],["陳委員雪生：不到6,000人，這次當然我們也建議蔣萬安市長能夠跟華源副市長藉著這樣的交流平台讓一些人過來，這樣軍事的對峙不會那麼緊張、那麼嚴重。其實我也要談到燈會，我在這邊質詢了10年，你看這個燈會從高雄、臺中、桃園，桃園是明年辦燈會對吧？"],["陳部長世凱：對，明年的。"],["周署長永暉：對，明年2月。"],["陳委員雪生：那桃園辦燈會等於是第二輪，我請問周署長，這是各縣市輪流辦，還是就是6都在辦？"],["周署長永暉：他也是提出申請，然後我們兩年宣布一次──2025在桃園，2026在嘉義，2027是在苗栗。"],["陳委員雪生：那有沒有機會輪到金門、馬祖、澎湖？"],["周署長永暉：因為它是大型的計畫……"],["陳委員雪生：你講實話沒關係啦！"],["周署長永暉：目前來講，因為要再搭飛機跟船的話……"],["陳委員雪生：你就講沒有就好了嘛！對不對，沒有機會嘛！部長，你不要笑啊！你心裡面也是講「不」啦！"],["周署長永暉：主要是考慮到那算超大型活動。"],["陳委員雪生：那我講了嘛！你既然沒有超大型的話，金門、馬祖、澎湖是亞細亞的孤兒、離島中的離島，是不是？"],["周署長永暉：不會啦！有其他的活動。"],["陳委員雪生：那我們馬祖今年要辦燈會，你們準備補助我們多少？"],["周署長永暉：如果地方舉辦的話，我們通案是縣市政府的話，一律可以200萬。"],["陳委員雪生：200萬辦什麼？買那個小孩子提的燈籠是不是？"],["周署長永暉：不會啦！我們在這次桃園的主燈裡面有一個設計，也有馬祖的燈……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有，我很嚴肅的跟你報告，你最少要給500萬，因為你這裡都是3,800萬，六都裡面的這幾個縣市都是3,800、3,800，從2020年開始，每年都是3,800萬，你最少給500萬，你要不要給我承諾？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個你看到3,800……"],["陳委員雪生：我過兩天要審你的預算了，我準備把3,800砍掉，我跟你講，我內心的世界是這樣。"],["陳部長世凱：召委會不太開心，不要啦！"],["陳委員雪生：召委不會不開心啊！召委一定支持我的啊！是不是？我們來立法院也是有個先來後到，我想我們召委對我是非常尊重，不是只有很尊重喔！是不是？"],["周署長永暉：這樣子好不好？跟雪生委員報告一下，就是燈會的部分，我們等連江縣政府提出來的時候，我們盡全力來協助。"],["陳委員雪生：已經協調過了，是你們要告訴他數字，你應該叫他計畫提出來，是350、400，或是450、500，你告訴他大概會給多少，你只能在額度範圍內處理吧！"],["周署長永暉：我們來看一下是不是有馬祖燈會以外相關的周邊一起來協調。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對燈會，因為各縣市的比例其實都一樣，如果這個拆開的話會不太好……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，我現在講離島，我們離島永遠沒機會輪到，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：不會、不會……"],["陳委員雪生：你今年給馬祖500萬，明年給金門500萬，甚至更多一點，給澎湖更多一點，我都同意。"],["陳部長世凱：對，剛剛署長說了，燈會的部分就這樣，其他的部分我們再來想辦法，從其他的部分來想辦法，不要從燈會這邊……"],["陳委員雪生：這有預算的欸！每年都有預算，連續性經費，每年都在編的欸！是不是？你要我對這個動手嗎？不要吧！我內心也不想，我也很掙扎。"],["周署長永暉：用周邊。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我們從周邊來協調。"],["周署長永暉：對，我們來協助，你能夠達成效果，這樣比較重要。"],["陳部長世凱：從周邊來達成效果。"],["陳委員雪生：會啦！會啦！你答應我至少給個500萬，你點頭了喔！"],["陳部長世凱：這不好說，我們從周邊來協助啦！"],["陳委員雪生：所以我說嘛！我上來質詢你就面帶微笑，內心的世界又是講「不」或是研究，這樣不好啦！"],["陳部長世凱：沒有、沒有，我們會來協助連江縣政府，這個沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：周署長，好不好？你就給我個面子，不管怎麼樣給個500萬，我希望風風光光的，我也快下台了，對不對？做熱鬧一點嘛！好不好？你不要每年都這樣很冷清……"],["周署長永暉：我們也有管理處在那邊，連江縣政府的成就也是我們馬管處的成就，我們會盡力。"],["陳委員雪生：你不要冷冷清清，就小孩子幾個燈籠，我們掛那個燈就不止了，掛那個燈……"],["陳部長世凱：馬管處會有另外的協助，會處理其他的。"],["陳委員雪生：你不要講馬管處，馬管處有它的經費，你什麼東西都馬管處，馬管處有多少錢？去掉用人費就沒剩多少錢啦！然後都是鐵的啊！鋼鐵、鐵是不能吃的，都是資本門，你知道嗎？那不能吃的，消化不了，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：署長有說會協助。"],["陳委員雪生：署長，你給500萬，這個你答應我，你要做到喔！"],["陳部長世凱：在這邊不能講。"],["陳委員雪生：另外，我要回到前天跟部長質詢的，我們高雄到馬祖包機的第三階段，署長，我跟部長報告過了，部長說要跟你商量。我早上打電話去觀光署，他們說什麼200萬，他不知道有這麼一回事，也不知道前面給了我們多少，他也不知道，怎麼可以這樣？部長在這邊接受質詢，你們底下都沒聽。"],["陳部長世凱：您直接打給署長就好，不用打給觀光署啦！"],["陳委員雪生：不要打給觀光署？"],["陳部長世凱：對，您直接打給署長就好。"],["陳委員雪生：打給署長，署長，你今年講都沒錢對不對？我們一直擠、一直擠，湊了200萬出來對不對？那你明年新的預算，錢太多太多了，我跟你講多少錢，各特色活動補助編列了3.35億，3.35億喔！國外包機、郵輪補助4,623萬，這裡……"],["周署長永暉：這是非常多的活動啦！包括我們臺灣觀光年曆，還有我們各縣……"],["陳委員雪生：3.35億，200萬在裡面只是像拔了一根毛而已，你瞭解沒有？所以我前天問部長，部長說還要跟你商量，我如果是部長的話，我就會說：「陳委員，不只200萬，給你300萬！」部長，你要有這個guts、魄力嘛！對不對？你這樣我才瞧得起你啊！我已經很看得起你了，但是我希望你再加油好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：周署長，第三階段的包機，拜託您成全，我二十幾號在民航局，要跟許智傑委員共同主持馬高航線後續的事宜，要把它轉為固定航班，好不好？"],["周署長永暉：是，我們也希望促成。"],["陳委員雪生：你不要光希望啊！你光希望有什麼用？大家都在希望，你也是一根螺絲釘欸！你這個螺絲釘釘上去的話就固定了嘛！好不好？把它變成固定航班，署長，有沒有問題？"],["陳部長世凱：問題是固定航班不是他管的。"],["周署長永暉：航班是民航局管的。"],["陳委員雪生：我知道啊！我問你就好了，時間到了，我不好意思，召委一直看我，有沒有問題？第三階段這個你幫我促成一下。"],["陳部長世凱：固定航班你們現在是在二十幾號要開會，那就看會議的結論怎麼樣。"],["陳委員雪生：你說要看會議結論，我是主席啊！我把結論先告訴你。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我已經把結論告訴你了，看你要還是不要嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們就照那個會議結論。"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，那個馬祖燈會承諾的錢要到喔！因為我們聽到了。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","有請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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國人的消費習慣完全不符合。這是環境部所提出來的政策我們配合那再來產業面的部分也不是觀光署做得到的跟委員報告。"},{"start":473.186,"end":494.676,"text":"但是你現在面臨到的全都是飯店業,為什麼本席今天會特別提出來,就是飯店業者很多跟本席來反應,就說今天交通部一個命令下來,環境部一個命令下來,然後結果交通部完全就當作是資深事外,你是主管機關,但是你真正讓飯店業者他們要自己去摸索。"},{"start":495.757,"end":505.352,"text":"然後飯店業者他們還講是擔心說那這樣子他都會有開罰輔導你們講輔導你們要補助你們要補貼結果完全沒有任何配套"},{"start":506.391,"end":507.172,"text":"因為很多飯店業者真的都在跟本席反映"},{"start":532.173,"end":555.209,"text":"都說這一個部分身為中央主管機關反而把他們放生一個部分是沒有讓有我們足夠的這個旅客市場能夠增加另外一個部分是當限制或是要求越來越多的時候但是中央主管機關好像沒有他的事情一樣我覺得最基本的媒合最基本的協助最基本的來"},{"start":556.912,"end":564.387,"text":"鼓勵他們去做到這些事情都沒有辦法的時候我覺得沒有辦法接受給本席相關資料好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":951,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時1分）謝謝主席，麻煩請陳世凱部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我想今天早上很多委員都關心針對兩岸旅遊的部分，面對現在上海主動出席也釋放善意，那臺灣禁團令的部分，你今天上午有回答是說會滾動檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我想請教一下，到目前為止兩個部分，第一、從我們宣布禁團令6月30日開始到現在，我們有沒有旅行社還是有做相關的組團前往中國大陸？"],["陳部長世凱：6月30日之前組團……"],["洪委員孟楷：6月30日以後啦！到現在，網路上有沒有看到很多旅行社，其實有做這樣的安排？"],["陳部長世凱：還是有啦！但是不多。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是有嘛！所以我們有沒有相關的規範或相關處置嗎？我們的禁團令有吧？"],["陳部長世凱：如果有在走的話……"],["周署長永暉：對，委員提的是禁團令有，但是因為當初有3月到5月的開放，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，我現在講的是3月到5月之後，現在有沒有在賣？去查一下。"],["周署長永暉：不能公開，他原來規劃的是……"],["洪委員孟楷：不能公開，大家都知道，就只有我們觀光署不知道，其實有嘛！要不要現在搜尋一下？本席自始至終的立場都是認為觀光是民眾市場，大家喜歡去那個地方，那個地方就是會活絡。不要用政治意識形態干預，對岸不應該，臺灣也不要，我們都應該用開放的態度，讓所有人喜歡的就來，商機無限嘛！之前是因為疫情，所以飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、餐飲、運輸是海嘯第一排，很可憐，但現在疫情過後，好像只有我們臺灣還活在疫情膠囊裡面，我們還沒有回復，所以之前講今年要1,200萬，沒有；變1,000萬，沒有；變750萬，沒有，到最後700萬。結果本席看到……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，750萬會達到。"],["洪委員孟楷：連來臺突破700萬的觀光人次都可以做新聞，說實在話，當初我們期待你做新聞是做1,200萬，不是700萬。所以我想請教一下部長，假設對岸現在真的能夠讓上海的民眾來到臺灣，那我們的禁團令真的可以讓國人也到中國大陸的時候，在消費、人身安全保障、保險等方面都可以有一個比較名正言順的契約，什麼時候能夠檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，滾動檢討其實就是代表隨時在檢討，沒有定什麼時候檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，農曆年前呢？因為現在接下來其實很快，跨年、農曆年，這都算是大節日，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們其實隨時都在檢討，這是第一點。第二點，剛剛在講的安全問題，其實我們還要再跟業者做更多的商討。目前我們跟業者其實也有在討論，我們的團客如果到中國大陸去旅遊的時候，對於他的人身安全該怎麼保障，這部分其實業者也有一些想法，我們目前還在統整大家的看法。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在都是滾動檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：我們都在溝通的過程。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是不設限，但是對岸如果已經有遞橄欖枝了，我希望我們的觀光部門真的能夠好好的……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們的橄欖枝更大枝。"],["洪委員孟楷：共同讓兩岸的議題真的能夠在農曆年春暖花開。部長，拉回來國內旅遊的部分，有看到環境部要推動限塑令，明年馬上就要上路，只剩兩個禮拜就2025年了。現在有講到各飯店內不能有一次性的備品，甚至連瓶裝水都鼓勵不要用塑膠瓶的瓶裝水，要用玻璃瓶或是飲水機。我請教，我們臺灣幾乎沒有玻璃瓶的飲水，對不對？那這樣子現在有沒有針對我們所有的這些飯店業者？難怪人家在講，如果國內住宿連水都沒有，連一次性的備品都沒有，網路上的討論是說這樣出國旅遊的人會更多了，我們希望這樣子嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：很多國家都是這樣限制的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但我說以亞洲國家相對來講，這樣的限制是比較少的，之前有看到是歐洲國家比較多，但我現在在講的是，我們飯店業者做好準備沒有？飯店業者做好準備了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：觀光旅宿業的部分我們有去宣導，觀光旅館的部分其實他們做的準備是相對比較足夠的，那一般的旅館其實我們也拜託地方政府要幫忙宣導，要求他們一定要做到。因為當這個政策制定下去，大概就會強制性推廣，飯店必須要適應這樣的機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你現在沒有聽懂我的話，現在只剩兩個禮拜了，明年1月1日是不是就開始就要實施了？"],["周署長永暉：沒錯，大概有兩個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們會主動抽查？"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們就會去檢查？那我們要做的事情並不是要處罰業者吧？"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["陳部長世凱：我們還會有補助。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們沒有要處罰業者，我們是希望業者能夠配合政府一起來做限塑，所以我現在講的是，只剩兩個禮拜，所有業者到底準備好了沒有？這才是重點啊！"],["周署長永暉：對，這沒有問題，但是有兩個層次，我用比較具體的舉例，譬如說一次性的備品，他不再提供，那他可以放在櫃台或者是去賣或送，都沒有特別……"],["陳部長世凱：就是不主動提供。"],["周署長永暉：對，不主動提供。"],["洪委員孟楷：不主動放在各房間，但是可以放在櫃台讓人家拿？"],["陳部長世凱：對，這大家可以做得到。"],["周署長永暉：對，第二個是您剛剛提的，我們還是一個勸導、輔導的過程，就是說儘量不要有塑膠瓶的礦泉水，這種事情並沒有開罰，只是說我們希望能夠用鼓勵的，跟國際的潮流是一樣的，用玻璃瓶的方式，能夠重複使用。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們還會有補貼的計畫，希望飯店業者可以配合。"],["周署長永暉：對，其實我們想要慢慢推廣，其實觀光旅館的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們國內有多少玻璃瓶的業者？或是說我們國內的消費習慣、使用方式，到最後是觀光署要去幫忙業者找玻璃瓶的飲用水是不是？"],["周署長永暉：這是一個世界的潮流，大家慢慢的會推廣出來，所以用玻璃瓶的方式是可以重複使用，我們是要達成減塑的目標，這個沒有開罰啦！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，另外，除了玻璃瓶，他還有飲水機……"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，這我瞭解，兩個部分、兩個層次嘛！現在是你們講不清楚欸！"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再說明更清楚一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長、部長，是你們講不清楚。兩個部分，你們說180cc以下的備品是不能用的，所以瓶裝水是沒有限制，只是你們鼓勵要用玻璃瓶或是增加飲水機。那本席現在請教的是，兩個部分嘛！你要讓業者好去購買玻璃瓶啊！或者至少你的玻璃瓶提供是方便的，有辦法嗎？有溝通嗎？有跟經濟部聯繫嗎？有沒有？我們國人的消費習慣，有用過玻璃瓶的飲用水嗎？我只問這一句，便利商店買得到嗎？飯店找得到嗎？你不能制訂一個政策出來之後，然後全都是你們在辦公室裡面自己想、自己覺得對，然後跟我們國人的消費習慣完全不符合。"],["陳部長世凱：這是對環境部所提出來的政策我們配合，再來產業面的部分，也不是觀光署做得到的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在面臨到這個問題的全都是飯店業，為什麼本席今天會特別提出來，就是很多飯店業者跟本席反映，說今天環境部一個命令下來，結果交通部完全當作置身事外。你是主管機關，但是你讓飯店業者他們要自己去摸索，然後飯店業者他們還擔心這樣子會不會開罰、輔導？你們講輔導，你們說要補貼，結果完全沒有任何配套，這個才是重點。"],["陳部長世凱：有，輔導跟補貼不就是配套嗎？這就是配套啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有啊！重點就在你們沒有輔導，你們沒有補貼啊！"],["周署長永暉：委員覺得頻率還不夠我們再加強，我們多做一些圖卡。"],["陳部長世凱：有輔導也會有補貼啦！都會有，謝謝委員指教，我們都會做。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長剛剛講有輔導、有補貼，請提供本席相關的資料。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個都會做。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為很多飯店業者真的都在跟本席反映，都說這個部分身為中央主管機關，反而把他們放生。一個部分是沒有讓足夠的旅客市場能夠增加，另外一個部分是當限制或是要求越來越多的時候，中央主管機關好像沒有他的事情一樣。我覺得最基本的媒合、最基本的協助，最基本的鼓勵他們去做到這些事情，都沒有辦法的時候，我覺得沒有辦法接受。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來努力做。"],["洪委員孟楷：給本席相關資料，好不好？謝謝。"],["周署長永暉：好。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，不過我覺得備品是真的可以省，可是如果是飲水，我知道你的意思，還不是外面的瓶裝水，就是飯店的水瓶上一個客人用光水了，下一個人再關上蓋子，我就問在座的各位敢不敢用？說真的，你一進去就一個開放性的容器repeat使用，不確定裝的是生水還是熟水，每一家飯店、民宿業者可能quality不一樣，我覺得這個要稍微謹慎一點。要不然像這個旅宿業者在每一層樓有冷熱飲水機，那個才是OK的，你知道嗎？不然我覺得會有一些旅客會擔心，所以你們要想一下。","接下來有請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳雪生","羅廷瑋","張啓楷","邱若華","游顥","黃珊珊","葉元之","黃健豪","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-18"],"gazette_id":"1141102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長及桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長就「如何提\n升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光署及所屬單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案\n附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─觀光發展基金分預算；四、審查114年\n度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算【僅\n進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1141102_00001"}}},{"id":"158210","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158210","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b951eeed9cc2fe3f720b3322f914086be2c4376c2e647076b76900cb30db92cbb6269e3722f5e7cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:53:15 - 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LADYBLAKE PINK這幾個人很多"},{"start":296.619,"end":300.651,"text":"現在辦演唱會很多,那群人來台灣整群在高雄笑的。"},{"start":303.607,"end":327.303,"text":"一大堆,那很貴的我知道啦,可是你們找到的網紅是韓國人喜歡的,他們講的都性質啦,他們講的都性質。早有流量的,然後有吸引力,能夠吸引出的一些網紅。所以這要找國際的網紅,要找他們那個國家的人認同的。要用他們的角度,不要用我們的角度。好,我再問第二個問題,那個署長你知不知道我有領隊導遊執照?"},{"start":330.43,"end":351.798,"text":"有沒有聽過?我大概不曉得。你可以查得到我有沒有在執業嗎?旅行社通報的時候才會查的,刻意去查。所以你查不到我這個有領隊導遊的人,我曾經執業過對不對?你也查不到我從來沒有執業過對不對?對,因為它是一個證照制,就像我們有電腦的…我覺得這個你們機制要改變。"},{"start":356.861,"end":377.603,"text":"為什麼要改變?上次在疫情期間不是要補助領隊導遊嗎?當時我跟交通部長講說,我沒有在職業,我給你申請,你如果補助的話你就麻煩了。應該不會,因為透過旅行社嘛。不是,就是說我有證喔,我都有證喔。是不是?沒有職業的話就不行。我每到期間我就換證喔。"},{"start":379.056,"end":399.754,"text":"那各地的協會都會去換換都可以換嘛對不對好我的意思是說我們現在我們的觀光署有沒有掌握擁有領隊導遊執照的人啊擁有領隊導遊執照的人現在在線上啊譬如說今年有在執業的是哪些人啊哪些人都沒有在執業你想我就沒在執業啊可是我還是有證啊"},{"start":400.862,"end":419.629,"text":"阿雖然我沒有去換證,我只要再去上幾個小時,對不對,之後我就又有證了。對。阿所以我的意思是說,因為三年換證之外,如果要執業的話要訓練。對,阿我們國家總是要知道說武嶺對島到底誰有在執業嗎,到底有多少人在執業,不然你們現在手上掌握的數字阿,"},{"start":420.569,"end":436.326,"text":"都是虛的啦。都是虛的。有統計了。對,本人的統計就是他不在職業裡面,就是他有資格而已。有效的,叫有效的導遊。好,我再問剛剛第二個問題就是說那個觀光發展研訓院,我看媒體有在報導,目前籌備的狀況怎麼樣?接下來你對導遊做這個研訓院來負責嗎?"},{"start":442.239,"end":470.674,"text":"我們昨天才開會來討論我們希望115年可以正式讓它上線營運你們現在領隊導遊考試院不幫忙考了嗎是由我們觀光署委託專業的來考試我是建議以後就由國家的研訓院負責來辦當然到各個北中南東要訓練再委託其他的協會跟學校"},{"start":471.414,"end":474.937,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（11時53分）我們請陳部長跟周署長。"],["主席：請陳部長、周署長。"],["王委員義川：部長好、署長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["王委員義川：部長，上海市副市長、一個小小的上海市副市長宣布上海人可以來臺灣了，你相信嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們還沒有看到他們文旅部有這樣子的政策宣布，所以這個部分我還不確定，因為中國的體制說實在的誰說了算到目前為止還看不出來。"],["王委員義川：他們中國人要出國要國家同意。"],["陳部長世凱：是啊。"],["王委員義川：我們臺灣人出國除非是被境管的或是軍公教有一大堆規定所以不能去的，其他的只要護照一拿想去哪裡就去哪裡。中國是獨裁國家，只不過是一個上海副市長而已，他說一說臺灣就「噗噗跳」，我們的花蓮縣副縣長也可以說開放花蓮縣副縣長可以去中國，本來就可以去中國啊，是在「裝肖維」喔？所以第一個請交通部觀光署對這一條密切注意。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["王委員義川：要歡迎他們，他們要來都來，可是他們那個國家有管制，他們不能隨便出國，他們沒申請不能出國，所以這條我們和他們分別是民主、獨裁，剛才楊瓊瓔委員有說，我們是民主國家、他們是獨裁，他們說的也不一定算數，但是要密切關注，如果那邊宣布可以來，我們就要準備好，這是第一點。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["王委員義川：接下來問署長，你知不知道現在臺灣人去韓國都要買什麼？"],["周署長永暉：有很多Pass可以買，優惠券。"],["王委員義川：不是啦，我是說去那邊都買什麼東西。"],["周署長永暉：年齡層不同，40歲以下的買很多泡麵，還有買一些我們說的おみあげ，おみあげ就是伴手禮。"],["王委員義川：我知道你要說泡菜、海苔，那是我們這個年紀的人。我的家人這陣子去韓國，你知道他買什麼回來嗎？在場有人知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不知道耶！"],["王委員義川：買棉被！我問他怎麼買那麼多棉被？是要做甚麼？他說人家現在去韓國都要買棉被。部長你有聽過嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：其實沒聽過。"],["王委員義川：沒聽過對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：真的沒聽過。"],["王委員義川：你現在上網輸入「去首爾買棉被」，它會跟你說去兩個市場買；輸入「去首爾要買什麼」，現在跳出來的都是「棉被」。我為什麼先講這一題？那請問日本人到臺灣要買什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：臺灣應該有很多吧！"],["周署長永暉：當然大家所熟悉的是他們對鳳梨酥還是情有獨鍾，但是就是分類，我們是鼓勵他們多買一些精品。"],["王委員義川：這跟你是否鼓勵無關啦，我們去韓國首爾，查「首爾必買」，現在就會跳出「棉被」。"],["周署長永暉：也有「臺灣必買」。"],["王委員義川：所以日本人輸入「到臺灣必買」，那些跳出顯示在前面的他就會來了，像我們隔壁的阜杭豆漿，為什麼都是整群人去？日本人、韓國人為什麼來臺灣都去那家喝豆漿？很奇怪！像我就都喝四海豆漿。那些人都在那邊排隊，為什麼？因為他們的網站、他們的旅遊書跟他說來臺灣臺北一定要去那邊喝豆漿。所以我就問你們，我舉韓國做例子，接下來你們找韓國的人代言臺灣觀光，去年是找誰？"],["周署長永暉：我們找圭賢。"],["王委員義川：今年？"],["周署長永暉：對，今年找圭賢。"],["王委員義川：明年？"],["周署長永暉：我們是一個年度、一個年度來做。"],["王委員義川：那明年找誰？"],["周署長永暉：目前還在評估。"],["王委員義川：找的人要不要署長同意？"],["周署長永暉：我們當然是一起開會討論。"],["王委員義川：你們在討論？你們討論沒有用啦！觀光署的同仁不要討論。"],["周署長永暉：我們有專業的公司。"],["王委員義川：不是啦，你要問韓國人啦！"],["周署長永暉：專業公司也是國際的，有韓國人。"],["王委員義川：部長，我告訴你……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你在提醒的是KOL的部分。"],["王委員義川：你們要問韓國人。"],["陳部長世凱：要找有流量的韓國人來幫我們推銷。"],["王委員義川：不是，你們不要從臺灣去觀察韓國要找誰。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["王委員義川：你要問韓國人覺得哪一個人好，譬如Pink Lady、BLACKPINK，有很多團體，現在在辦演唱會的很多，那些團體如果來臺灣，整群人在高雄就好像瘋子。"],["陳部長世凱：是、是。"],["王委員義川：我知道那個很貴，可是你們要找那個網紅是韓國人喜歡的，他們說的都是聖旨。"],["陳部長世凱：對，找有流量的、有吸引力的，能夠吸引眼球的一些網紅。"],["王委員義川：對，所以找國際的網紅要找他們國家的人認同的。"],["陳部長世凱：要用他們的角度，不要用我們的角度。"],["王委員義川：對。我再問第二個問題，署長你知不知道我有領隊導遊執照？有沒有聽過？"],["周署長永暉：我大概不曉得。"],["王委員義川：你可以查得到我有沒有在執業嗎？"],["周署長永暉：旅行社通報的時候才會刻意去查。"],["王委員義川：所以你查不到我這個有領隊導遊執照的人曾經執業過，對不對？你也查不到我從來沒有執業過，對不對？"],["周署長永暉：對，因為它是一個證照制，就像我們有電腦的licence一樣。"],["王委員義川：我覺得你們這個機制要改變，為什麼要改變？上次在疫情期間不是要補助領隊導遊嗎？當時我跟交通部長講，我沒有在執業，我申請如果你補助我，那你就有事了。"],["周署長永暉：應該不會，因為透過旅行社。"],["王委員義川：不是，就是我有證喔，然後……"],["周署長永暉：是，但是你沒有執業的話就不行。"],["王委員義川：我每到期限我就換證喔，各地的協會我都會去換，都可以換嘛，對不對？好，我的意思是現在觀光署有沒有掌握擁有領隊導遊執照的人現在在線上的？譬如今年有在執業是哪些人、哪些人都沒有在執業，像我就沒有在執業，但我還是有證照，雖然我沒有去換證 我只要再去上幾個小時，之後我就又有證了。"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["王委員義川：所以我的意思是說……"],["周署長永暉：除了3年換證之外，如果要執業的話要訓練。"],["王委員義川：對，我們國家總是要知道，領隊、導遊到底誰有在職業，到底有多少人在職業，不然你們現在手上掌握的數字都是虛的。"],["周署長永暉：有統計。"],["王委員義川：統計就是他也沒有在執業，只是有資格而已。"],["周署長永暉：觀光業還是有在統計證照有效的導遊。"],["王委員義川：我再問第二個問題，關於觀光發展研訓院，我看媒體有在報導，目前籌備的狀況怎麼樣？接下來領隊、導遊就由這個研訓院來負責嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們昨天才開會討論，希望115年可以正式讓它上線營運。"],["王委員義川：現在領隊、導遊考試院不幫忙考了對不對？"],["周署長永暉：對，是由我們觀光署委託專業的來考試。"],["王委員義川：我是建議以後就由國家的研訓院來辦。"],["周署長永暉：對，沒錯。"],["王委員義川：當然北中南東地區要訓練就委託其他的協會跟學校，比如說臺中以前都委託東海大學或者是朝陽大學，他們都有在協助。所以這些事情還是要回到一個國家的制度裡頭，用觀光發展研訓院來負責主辦領隊、導遊的考試。"],["陳部長世凱：是，會朝這個方向來做。"],["周署長永暉：謝謝委員支持。"],["王委員義川：好，大家一起為觀光加油，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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執數字沒有意義本期是要聽你要怎麼樣能夠將這個逆差我們沒辦法管制國人出國"},{"start":497.577,"end":507.445,"text":"所以這個逆差這樣算法其實不是很公平的算法但是因為已經算了哇你今天是行政部門你講這個我嚴肅的跟你抗議你當然我們民主國家你怎麼可能去管人家要出國而是你要去理解你今天觀光署你要怎麼樣讓外面的人可以進來而且讓我的國人也可以國旅所以我剛剛特別跟你講了國旅嘛以及你要怎麼樣讓這個逆差減少"},{"start":526.459,"end":530.641,"text":"我把答案給你了,你還在講這個內容,這個離譜啊!對啊!部長講的就對啊!我希望要聽到這個啊!你不是告訴我我沒有辦法去控制我們的國人要出國!我們是民主國家欸!"},{"start":544.909,"end":572.397,"text":"報告委員我們會盡量國外的宣傳做好然後台灣的亮點做好這兩點是最重要就像你們菲律賓前天啊你發表了一個菲律賓的代言人這個方案不錯所以你應該要怎麼樣去精進各種方案呢你在這邊跟我辯證國人聽不下去的對不對我們希望聽到行政部門你是有方案的所以怎麼樣能夠讓產值的逆差不那麼大"},{"start":573.417,"end":577.78,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":593.072,"end":607.47,"text":"有,我們每年的年度計畫裡面還有部長會在...你告訴針對本席的提問嘛,你多久,你的經濟方案可以跟本席...我們一個月內就提供...一個月內提供嘛,好不好,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":759,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時42分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們來討論通用計程車的議題，因為2025年臺灣邁入超高齡，這個數字讓我們也很緊張，65歲以上長者比例會超過20%，這個緊張是長輩是我們家的寶貝，但是我們要怎麼樣讓他們可以生活得非常的安逸，這是政府的責任。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因此我們看到身障人口中65歲以上的會超過43%，而且現在身障的中、重度各層級我們發覺一個顯性的議題，也就是中度、重度的家庭他有雙老，雙老誰要照顧？這個是很嚴肅的議題。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因此無障礙交通工具的需求會日益增加，從2012年我們開始推動通用計程車，當時你應該還是臺中的議員。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我記得臺中第一台的通用計程車，記者會時大家都很高興，大家都去宣傳，但是我們看到目前為止，部長，目前為止我們總共有多少台？我們的通用計程車僅占總量的1%！政府有一個目標、KPI，2020年是要多少呢？2020年通用計程車要占總量的20%，但是現在我們統計只有1.3%，請問原因在哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個通用計程車確實目前的數量不足……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：原因出在哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：原因出在兩個部分，一個部分是想叫車的人叫不到、有車的人也找不到客人，找不到客人的時候他們投入的意願就會相對的低……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：意願低是為什麼呢？請做說明。"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得是他們中間的串接……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：政府的力量在哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：就是客人跟車隊中間的串接程度還不夠，所以我們現在正在努力……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼努力？"],["陳部長世凱：我們要做一個app，做一個平台讓他們雙方的串接更有效率，這是一方面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在的說法本席沒有辦法認同。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們應該要先看我們的老年人口，身障朋友已經要占65歲以上人口的43%了，在這樣的情況我們的需求是很多的，但是你的供給是不夠的，你的供給只有1.3%，跟政府定的KPI要達20%相比，落差將近20倍，你應該要針對這一點去檢討，你要怎麼樣讓設備可以足。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，對這方面有在檢討……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：我們對於購車的補貼也好、或者是車子改裝……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問購車補貼1台設備你補貼多少？"],["陳部長世凱：關於這個數字，在會後再詳細跟委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我告訴你，從12年前政府就沒有在追蹤，真的是讓我們身障的朋友情何以堪？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，一直有在追蹤，但是成果確實不夠好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從12年前一直有在追蹤？但我問你多少你都不知道，從12年前1台車的設備40萬，到現在也是。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一趟給50元，到現在也是，12年來的落差已經那麼大，你為什麼不去檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分有在檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：我前幾天就已經找相關的單位來檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼檢討？告訴我。"],["陳部長世凱：不是一趟50元而已，我們未來的方式是他有時候要去載客人會空車，空車的里程我們也會計費給他，也就是補貼部分會超過50元，空車的部分如果再加上的話會更多一點，所以對於業者來講，他願意參加的意願會再增加。第二我要講的是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在告訴本席說你們朝一趟50元、空車的部分還會補貼的方向？"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個方向我們會來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那車子的部分呢？"],["陳部長世凱：車子的部分跟委員報告，目前來申請補貼的其實數量沒有很大，如果真的有需要再把金額提高。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：意願不高嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，意願不高……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他意願不高，你是政府啊！他的意願不高，你要怎麼樣去讓他意願高，因為你的終極目標是要協助需要協助的長者跟身障的朋友，對不對？你的目標是這個啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對，所以我剛剛有跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然你的設備都不足，你只有1%，當然你的成效會不彰啊！"],["陳部長世凱：不是，報告委員，我剛有講一個問題，我們現在要趕快快速解決的是有車的人找不到客人、有需求的人找不到車，中間的串接平台顯然是有問題的，我們先把中間的串接平台做好，做好一個完整的app，讓客人隨時預約得到車，那車子也不會變成空車，當他生意很好的時候意願就會提高。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你這個構想有在改，但是我仍舊要建議你，你要馬兒跑就必須要給馬兒吃草。"],["陳部長世凱：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼通用計程車他們為了生存會去轉型？因為要生存嘛！計程車司機要轉型，需要協助的、需要坐通用車的人找不到車，所以會變成三輸的情況。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然我們討論到這個議題，本席非常關心我們身障的朋友，所以請教：你們現在說要檢討，多久時間會有方案出來給社會大眾？"],["陳部長世凱：我們應該在這兩、三個月就可以有一個方案出來了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在這兩、三個月，就是農曆年的過年之後？"],["陳部長世凱：對，過年後我們會有檢討的方案出來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那就大概會是在2月底？"],["陳部長世凱：對，2月底到3月。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2月底告訴社會大眾到底要怎麼辦。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我希望因為我們點出這個問題，就誠如你說的，不管是對接有問題、不管是你在補貼方面沒有誘因，供給跟需求是沒有辦法搭軋的。"],["陳部長世凱：對，兩邊接不上。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且最糟糕的是什麼？是需求很多、供給不夠，這個是我們整個社會面裡頭的邏輯最糟糕的。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我希望能夠在農曆年過後可以看到你的方案到底是怎麼樣，我也要求你先把你們初步的方向送給本席，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們繼續來討論……"],["陳部長世凱：這個有討論出一個初步的方向，可以提給委員，沒問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望好好來幫助需要幫助的人。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來最後一個議題我要請問觀光署，10月16日您說了今年來臺的旅客人數大概是750萬，你去年約定的千萬目標是沒有辦法達標，但是我們今年、也就是明年，我們現在審明年預算，仍舊希望以1,000萬人為目標來努力，這很好，我們朝向我們的目標。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我們根據觀光署的一個統計，今年到8月底出入境的逆差達到了641萬人次，還有它的產值逆差，哇，這很可惜耶！臺灣這麼美，食衣住行，吃的也好吃、海岸線也美、山線也美、都市也美，尤其臺中，我們山、海、屯、市都美得不得了，但是我們的產值逆差推估達到7,300億，創下了歷史新高，這非常的可惜，所以本席要請教怎麼辦呢？振興國旅除了靠你大力的宣導之外，你還有什麼樣的方式可以讓這個逆差不要這麼大？請做說明。"],["周署長永暉：我跟委員報告一下，我們在算觀光產值的時候分兩個部分，一個是英鎊，就是入境的；一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你就告訴我，你跟我爭執數字沒有意義。"],["周署長永暉：沒有、沒有，它是有分，1,000萬的話等於是4,800億……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席是要聽你怎麼樣能夠將這個逆差……"],["周署長永暉：我們沒辦法管制國人出國，所以逆差這樣算法其實不是很公平的算法，但是因為已經算了嘛……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哇，你今天是行政部門……"],["周署長永暉：沒有，我要特別跟……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你講這個，我要嚴肅的跟你抗議，當然我們是民主國家，你怎麼可能去管人家要出國？而是你要去理解今天觀光署要怎麼樣讓外面的人可以進來，而且讓我們的國人也可以國旅。"],["周署長永暉：對、對、……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我剛剛特別跟你講了國旅嘛，以及你要怎麼樣讓這個逆差減少……"],["周署長永暉：對，我們希望把國旅……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我把答案給你了，你還在講這個內容，這個離譜啦！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實最主要我們要讓國外的人願意來臺灣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊，部長講的就對。"],["陳部長世凱：我們要去衝刺這個1,000萬人的目標，這個部分我們要去做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我希望要聽到這個啊，而不是告訴我：我沒有辦法去控制我們的國人要出國。我們是民主國家耶！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們會儘量將國外的宣傳做好，然後臺灣的亮點做好，這兩點是最重要的，這兩點如果做好……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就像前天你發表了一個菲律賓的代言人，這個方案就不錯，所以你應該要怎麼樣去精進各種方案。你在這邊跟我辯這個，國人是聽不下去的，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員指教。"],["周署長永暉：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望聽到行政部門是有方案的。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以怎麼樣能夠讓產值的逆差不那麼大？我不敢要求minus，但是至少你要怎麼樣去精進？"],["周署長永暉：是，我聽懂委員的意思。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國外的朋友你要想怎麼樣讓他來到臺灣，可以看到臺灣的美。"],["陳部長世凱：是，要讓他們願意來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：讓我們的國人也可以欣賞我們自己的美啊！「三全其美」你不做，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有什麼方案？多久可以告訴本席？"],["周署長永暉：有，我們每年的年度計畫裡面、還有部長會在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你就告訴我，針對本席的提問嘛，你的精進方案多久可以給本席？"],["周署長永暉：我們1個月內就提供完整的報告給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1個月內提供嘛，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","接下來有請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳雪生","羅廷瑋","張啓楷","邱若華","游顥","黃珊珊","葉元之","黃健豪","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-18"],"gazette_id":"1141102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長及桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長就「如何提\n升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光署及所屬單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案\n附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─觀光發展基金分預算；四、審查114年\n度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算【僅\n進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1141102_00001"}}},{"id":"158208","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158208","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b951eeed9cc2fe3f7e2ce07ee1753e33e2c4376c2e647076d5aad0e8ea9a3b6d004998842fe26b305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:31:51 - 11:42:41","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長及桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長就「如何提升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光署及所屬單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─觀光發展基金分預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。\n【僅進行詢答；第二案至第四案委員預算提案於12月25日中午12時前截止收件】【12月18日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-18","start_time":"2024-12-18T11:31:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-18T11:42:41+08:00","duration":650,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":6.629093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.629093750000001,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.67409375,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.95659375,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.05096875,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.25471875,"end":53.406593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.406593750000006,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.423468750000005,"end":53.507843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.85034375000001,"end":85.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.28784375000001,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.03846875,"end":135.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.40221875,"end":148.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.09221875,"end":191.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.42534375000002,"end":176.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.45909375000002,"end":176.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.93159375000002,"end":177.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.34846875000002,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.68034375000002,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.10221875000002,"end":229.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.07096875000002,"end":238.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.26784375000003,"end":254.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.52284375000002,"end":256.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.64909375,"end":258.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.74159375,"end":273.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.81096875000003,"end":300.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.77721875000003,"end":361.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.86471875,"end":369.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.92284375,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.25596875,"end":386.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.99159375000005,"end":399.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.54784375,"end":391.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.76721875000004,"end":391.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.08659375,"end":403.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.47846875000005,"end":406.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.51221875000005,"end":403.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.96784375000004,"end":404.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.34721875,"end":406.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.81534375,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.58971875000003,"end":431.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.11971875,"end":440.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.41784375000003,"end":440.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.80596875000003,"end":447.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.52221875000004,"end":448.06221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.06221875000006,"end":448.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.46721875000003,"end":449.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.48409375000006,"end":452.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.12909375000004,"end":459.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.04346875000005,"end":460.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.33034375000005,"end":460.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.13596875,"end":464.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.32159375000003,"end":468.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.78471875,"end":481.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.42034375000003,"end":478.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.58909375,"end":478.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.67721875,"end":531.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":531.72846875,"end":531.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.01534375,"end":535.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":535.8290937500001,"end":541.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":537.19596875,"end":537.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":542.24159375,"end":545.245343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部分比如說南部是特別多"},{"start":561.291,"end":585.544,"text":"我看高雄那個屏東都非常的多,所以它有點消耗不良,那我現在也給他們一個這個希望說,如果這個補還沒補齊以前,不要各舉再去招考新人,讓要調回來的沒有這個機會,那目前大概朝這個方向來進行,我想說整個在這個人力的調度還是按照我們的需求,還有現況的這個調動性來處理的。"},{"start":588.071,"end":615.734,"text":"對,因為過去本期也有接到我們有有我們基層通文在投訴這個我們要補的時候不要只有補高階人員高階的這個主管應該要針對基層的人力要多補充因為第一手這方面最辛苦的那我想不要造成勞役不均的一個工作環境我們中華郵政才會是一個幸福企業他現在就是的確在人力的這個調配是按照我們這個整個業務的一個狀況"},{"start":617.823,"end":644.798,"text":"當然就是說在中間是不是有沒有處理比較不當的部分,我想這部分我請各局來做一些這個檢討。對啦,董事長也應該針對那個工作量的狀況跟人力的配置的部分應該做一個全面性的盤點,而不是這個要因地制宜啦,這樣我覺得讓同仁會覺得說這個各種在對的地方做得比較辛苦,在南部的做得比較輕鬆,沒有這一回事應該要全面排領我們工作的負擔量。"},{"start":645.478,"end":647.661,"text":"好,我們就朝這方向持續來檢討。好,謝謝。謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":721,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時32分）謝謝主席。有請陳部長和周署長。"],["主席：陳部長和周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好！"],["徐委員富癸：部長、署長早安！我想，本席還是要持續的關心我們的觀光效益問題，當然，觀光署12月6日有公布，截至目前，今年度入境的國際旅客人數大概是700萬人次，但是我們從其他國家的數字，日本達到二千六百多萬人次；韓國跟新加坡都有一千二百多萬個國際旅客，相較之下我們的數字真的是不好看。部長，不管是在委員會也好，甚至是很多的委員，大家都持續的在關心觀光署，當然，周署長很努力，但是外界也批評他用大撒幣來招攬國際旅客的作法，感覺那個KPI沒有出來。我想，今年也快結束了，針對這樣的狀況，部長，明年我們有沒有針對國際旅客訂定出一個目標？要達到多少人次？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你的螢幕上面顯示沒有破1,000萬是國恥，所以我們明年的目標就是希望能夠突破1,000萬，我們就以1,000萬做為目標，今年沒有達到，明年我們就來達到。委員剛才指教的是用補貼的方式，其實各國對於旅遊，大部分的國家都是用補貼的方式，所以不是只有臺灣在做，其他鄰近的國家，包含韓國，他們也是這樣在做，有很多國家都是這樣在做，大家都在拚觀光，補貼是全世界很多國家都在做的一種方式。當然，旅遊逆差這部分，其實我覺得這上面的算法有一點點小小的不公平，因為我們出國的旅客包含機票錢，但是來臺灣玩的旅客沒有包含機票錢，一差就差了好幾萬元，所以那個逆差看起來很大，但是那個計算的基礎我覺得有一點點小小的不公平，我跟委員報告。"],["徐委員富癸：好。部長，因為目前我們掌握到，有民間的學者估算，這個圖表上有顯示，截至目前，大概是到8月份，我們逆差的人數高達六百四十多萬人，所謂的產值逆差也高達7,380億元，這是非常龐大的數字。我們也知道，觀光署最近也一直持續的在佈局外國的行銷據點，甚至也花了很多錢跟網紅搭配，但是我要提醒部長，部長，國際旅客除了人數減少之外，最大的衝擊是我們國內的觀光產業，人沒有進來，國內這些產業都苦不堪言，所以我們還是要要求觀光署，其實我們目前看到，尤其是以我們屏東來講，我們有大鵬灣管理處和茂林管理處，但是很遺憾，我們並沒有創造出新的觀光景點，大家每次去墾丁都只有那幾個地方，然後他們繞了一圈之後，覺得還是跟過去一樣沒有改變。我覺得，我們除了要用誘因讓大家進來之外，我們要怎麼樣創造新的景點？這部分部長和署長有沒有什麼樣新的作法？"],["周署長永暉：是，上次委員也特別垂詢，明年我們會把它當成很重要的半島旅遊，把恆春半島的部分做一些串接，這個部分我們已經有跟屏東縣政府聯繫，接著我們會跟國家公園署、墾丁國家公園一起把大鵬灣、小琉球、東港連結到海生館跟恆春，再來是墾丁，我們會把這幾個部分串接起來。","除了活動及增加活動的亮點之外，我們覺得旅宿的部分，我們也會加強提升旅宿的品質。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這部分就是要拜託署長，我想，透過跨部會的合作，我們要怎麼樣加強國內旅遊品質的軟硬體建設？而且部長也很喜歡去墾丁深度旅遊，我想未來我們應該要發展生態和觀光的深度旅遊，這樣才能永續經營，我想，針對很多外國的遊客，這也是很有誘因的一個點，我們應該要往這個方向來努力。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，有關屏東，我們比較關心的是大鵬灣的開發，目前觀光署所掌握的資料是，11月份的招商大會，目前我們預計投資的金額可以突破300億元，這個部分也是屏東縣很多鄉親都很期待的一個重要的觀光建設。但是我還是要提醒部長和署長，這裡有一個問題，因為過去我們在開發協調上，當地的居民有被要求要回饋捐地，或是繳交代金來做公共設施的建設，但是我們發現這有很大的問題點，因為現在百姓捐出來的地分散在不一樣的地方，公務部門，包含鵬管處也好、縣政府也好，你們要怎麼樣把這些捐出來的土地做有效的整合，以做公共設施使用，甚至開闢道路？這部分到目前為止一直都沒有相關的進度。"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告一下，這應該是遊四、遊五和遊六這個部分，我們這次招商的是遊一、遊二和遊三。"],["徐委員富癸：是，我知道。"],["周署長永暉：對，我們希望能夠擴大，有關遊五和遊四的部分，我們有一些調整，當然，這跟內政部的比例有關。後面的部分，下次我們再特別的跟委員報告新的進度。"],["徐委員富癸：對，因為大鵬灣不是只要遊一、遊二、遊三招商成功，遊四、遊五和遊六這些民間業者也希望能夠開發，但問題是現在捐出來的土地沒辦法做規劃使用。"],["周署長永暉：對，那邊還需要整地的協商。"],["徐委員富癸：好，許處長也有到場，請許處長說明一下。"],["許處長主龍：報告委員，這個案子11月19日內政部已經有做討論，針對私有土地的開發回饋，主席有交代小組要再研議，我們會再跟內政部討論，把誘因跟後續的處理機制做妥善的考量。"],["徐委員富癸：不是，處長，你捐出來的土地跟陳部長捐出來的土地就不在同一個區塊，這樣要怎麼整合起來做公共設施？這是很大的問題。"],["許處長主龍：是。"],["徐委員富癸：這個一定要再跟內政部好好的討論一下，不然你叫人家捐出來的土地根本無法使用，你要把它圈起來嗎？"],["許處長主龍：是，這個我們都有在跟內政部討論。"],["徐委員富癸：而且你們現在要求繳交的代金也不足以支付這些公共設施的預算，這筆錢誰要買單？"],["許處長主龍：是。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分……"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員的提醒，我們會注意，我們在跟內政部開會的時候會特別提出來。"],["徐委員富癸：對，不能讓大鵬灣的開發變成兩個世界，遊一、遊二、遊三做一個國際級的，結果遊四、遊五、遊六一直停滯不前，這是不對的，大鵬灣應該要有整體的開發進度。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，針對中華郵政的部分，王董事長，我記得大概上半年的時候我有針對虧損的情形提出質詢，我們現在比較擔心的是去年虧損16.5億之後陸續裁員了274名的外勤人員跟內勤的窗口人員，但目前我聽到的狀況是遇缺不補，今年退休跟離職的人大概高達1,150人，但是你們只有招考70人，這樣的狀況是不是造成基層同仁很大的工作負擔？甚至有些我們南部的鄉親考取後在中、北部工作，他期待時間到了應該可以調回南部，結果調不回來，這造成很多家庭的問題，這部分怎麼去處理？"],["王董事長國材：跟委員報告，現在我來了以後我的政策是委外的部分先處理，因為的確現在郵務量在下降，委外的部分是不是可以減少然後由我們的郵務士來擔任，這個都在進行；現在的確申請異動的部分南部是特別多，高雄、屏東都非常的多，所以有點消化不良，我現在也希望在缺還沒補齊以前各局不要再去招考新人，讓想要調回來的沒有這個機會，目前大概朝這個方向來進行，我想整個人力的調度還是按照我們的需求還有現況的調動情形來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：對，因為過去本席也有接到基層同仁投訴，我們要補的時候不要只補高階人員、高階主管，應該要針對基層的人力多補充，因為第一線工作最辛苦，我想不要造成勞逸不均的工作環境，中華郵政才會是一個幸福企業。"],["王董事長國材：現在的確在人力的調配是按照我們整個業務的狀況，當然在中間是不是有處理比較不當的部分，我想這部分我會請各局來做一些檢討。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦，董事長也應該針對各個區域工作量的狀況跟人力的配置部分做一個全面性的盤點，要因地制宜，這樣才不會讓同仁會覺得好像在哪裡做比較辛苦、在南部做比較輕鬆，沒有這一回事，應該要全面盤點我們工作的負擔量。"],["王董事長國材：好，我們朝這個方向持續來檢討。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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Taiwan的冠軍遊輒"},{"start":39.147,"end":61.601,"text":"這個他看起來是中華郵政的業務但是他也是種觀光行銷啊可是我看我們的橫向聯繫從來沒有大家都是各做各的那現在我先講中華郵政自己本身啊預購秒殺雖然剛剛董事長有說啊有我們這是第一波還有第二波那未來還有計畫但是呢我們要談的是什麼"},{"start":62.529,"end":84.866,"text":"如何用比較新的觀念而且是跟得上時代的觀念來進行行銷。這個行銷不是只有在推我們中華郵政幫中華郵政賺錢這個行銷也是台灣可以向國際行銷賺國外的錢嘛對不對只是說我們我再講一次我看起來好像大家都是各做各的"},{"start":85.646,"end":104.356,"text":"少了一個整合行銷的一個觀念部長這給你做參考我覺得觀光對我們交通部來講是一個重中之重的業務也是把台灣的國際形象搞好的一個最重要的關鍵所以這個產業大家也希望說政府能夠"},{"start":105.256,"end":107.398,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":123.909,"end":149.191,"text":"這個王董事長你自己應該也知道這在你們網站上下來了我們從60年代我們呢不斷的只要在國際賽事上不管是少棒、輕棒、成棒只要有得冠軍有得獎項我們都會發行紀念郵票這個是已經民國60年到民國108年那今年是因為12強世界冠軍所以呢我們有那"},{"start":149.972,"end":169.377,"text":"董事長,我們中華郵政裡面有沒有這樣子碰到這個天大的一個機會來行銷我們中華郵政這個是我們的強項也是我們獨佔市場的你有沒有想過說這是可以把它包裝行銷可以當作下一次的行銷為什麼?台灣棒球很棒台灣很用的"},{"start":171.437,"end":173.279,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":183.359,"end":211.678,"text":"包括最強的會長現在已經說那個獎盃是要巡迴台灣去做展示啊可是呢101開始爭取我們其他的單位還沒有人跳出來說要爭取我為什麼會說中華郵政在這一次可以做自己的行銷形象的行銷也可以做什麼賺錢的一個大最重要的機會行銷都在於行銷那要行銷要不要有人要有人啊我不知道中華郵政有沒有相關的這種"},{"start":214.139,"end":239.369,"text":"行銷人才整套的,不是選了什麼做了什麼,董事長有嗎?有,我們現在有公共事務處,他是負責這個行銷,我跟委員報告這次事實上他們是,我們是三波高潮,明信片遊者紀念遊票,然後紀念遊票明年1、2、3接經典賽的這個預算,當然如果經典賽到複賽我們的冠軍,當然那時候一定要再花一次,"},{"start":240.429,"end":254.18,"text":"所以我的意思是說那要多元的行銷對不對各式各樣只要能夠爭取曝光只要有行銷的機會都要那甚至觀光署在他的對外的網頁甚至在配合觀光的行銷運動也是一種行銷運動產業行銷台灣的運動產業那"},{"start":262.086,"end":276.315,"text":"剛剛最強會長講了啊,你看大家日本韓國的球迷也會來這裡看棒球啊,那只要台灣有舉辦國際賽事,那也會來啊,是不是?比如台中也有啊,對不對?所以我的意思是說,我們交通部向下,"},{"start":277.136,"end":296.441,"text":"推觀光推行銷我覺得是可以這個在民間企業叫做異業結合啦結盟啦大家可以互相合作拉抬嘛那甚至增加曝光的機會嘛對不對這個才是整套的一個我希望我們能夠有這樣子的人才啦"},{"start":297.052,"end":326.161,"text":"我們來加強我們現在大概很多行銷是在委託其他這種行銷公司來處理那根本包括的確像12強這個也是我們中華郵政最近一波讓人家重視到我們的網站會掛掉是啊曾幾何時中華郵政的網站會被衝到掛掉那表示多熱啊對不對所以我們覺得爭取這一種尤其國家的這種非常榮耀的時刻"},{"start":327.209,"end":355.005,"text":"當然就是配合部長這邊對於觀光的發展我們這個持續而且我覺得不僅僅它只是不僅僅是觀光行銷不僅僅只是幫中華郵政在累積盈餘賺錢重要它是一個歷史記憶這個東西留下來是一個紀念他買的人或者是參與的人對他來講這是他人生當中一個很光榮很重要的記憶所以郵票所以你會發行郵票那接下來"},{"start":355.825,"end":377.072,"text":"要說專業要說觀光大家今天有人提到郵政博物館我剛剛為什麼說你要爭取這一個12強獎盃冠軍來做展因為你們有郵政博物館你們有場館可是你們的場館做得很不專業很不到位而且備受大家認為說"},{"start":379.537,"end":394.376,"text":"你們第一個那個管理有問題第二個策展的專業有問題第三個連時間都會開放時間都是很官僚式的沒有任何其他的"},{"start":395.299,"end":398.581,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":411.169,"end":413.17,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算．"},{"start":430.711,"end":431.251,"text":"董事長你知道嗎?"},{"start":458.67,"end":486.812,"text":"我回答你這個問題跟部長討論以後我們今天開始所謂的本館本來就是只有休禮拜一現在三個分館從今天開始都是休禮拜一其他都開放第一個第二個地方郵局的管理是的確是在這一次我去三個這個郵輪館去看就是說它因為它原來是直接由我們郵由郵國館的總館來管所以它是以郵票為主"},{"start":487.752,"end":509.06,"text":"但是我覺得這個有點可惜,台中剛剛開幕,委員可以看一下,事實上它非常精彩,我們是希望它變成一個郵政的生活館來看,這意思是說除了郵票以外,它有很多的文創的產品,還有一些歷史,它也是可以結合讓地方能夠去的一個地方。"},{"start":509.52,"end":513.003,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":533.079,"end":542.41,"text":"這個都需要我們總公司的支持跟部長的支持啊是不是這個部分我們當然支持要有專業的策展是嘛你沒有專業的人的時候為什麼我要幫你們想裁員啊要開員嘛對不對那開員剛剛"},{"start":550.464,"end":564.211,"text":"很多委員都講過你們容易瞭解啊怎麼開源來我提個例子故宮你知道故宮的禮品部有在展售你們中華郵政限量發行郵票你知道嗎然後呢你知道他們一套都賣多少嗎"},{"start":567.753,"end":589.726,"text":"包裝以後比我們現在票值高很多。對。你們的按照你們的票值在賣可能一套幾百塊幾十塊。他呢一套是賣一千二、一千五甚至兩千以上。啊這個為什麼故宮人家會你們不會呢?你這是你所形成出來郵票耶。這麼值得紀念的一個郵票、套票。"},{"start":590.886,"end":616.678,"text":"那怎麼不懂得去經營跟行銷呢?第二個我建議可以用文化幣如果你們願意包裝行銷故宮在賣你們中華郵政的郵票套票的時候他可以使用文化幣那會吸引更多的年輕人來來可能想要來買郵票嘛這也是行銷創新你們的思考啊對不對"},{"start":618.53,"end":622.68,"text":"尤其我們文化幣現在要加碼喔13到15歲可以有600喔那現在15歲到18歲是有1200喔"},{"start":627.591,"end":648.899,"text":"我跟各位報告就是說事實上在中華郵政有很多的創意商品就是類似他雖然是用郵票但是做成杯子做成紀念品那剛才談到像故宮事實上故宮也是跟我們合作是啊可是你賣的是那個郵票的那個幣值啊然後他賣的是整套的這個價值啊藝術價值啊"},{"start":650.68,"end":668.914,"text":"阿文化幣用在集友跟郵政博物館我想這部分我們跟文化部這個要爭取啦因為既然我們郵政博物館要如果有心要好好的來投資要經營要讓他變得是更親近我們一般的人民讓一般的年輕家庭跟親子都可以進入我們的郵政博物館去"},{"start":669.835,"end":673.798,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、董事長及董事長及董事長及董事長及董事長及董事長及董事長及董事長及"},{"start":691.93,"end":707.53,"text":"談好了之後,你接下來的紀念郵票跟接下來的這個棒球相關的,小人就可以用文化幣來買啊?是不是?報告員,這個我們來跟文化部這邊來商討這個議題。是嘛,我覺得就用創新的方法。"},{"start":708.731,"end":715.738,"text":"創新的思維然後整體的行銷讓中華郵政這個我覺得非常棒的郵政博物館還有相關的這個紀念郵票郵務能夠開源然後能夠讓中華郵政真的煥然一新這對我們中華郵政的形象很有幫忙好不好以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時19分）謝謝魯召委。請部長，還有中華郵政王董事長。"],["主席：部長、王董事長，署長要嗎？"],["何委員欣純：歡迎，因為都有關係，謝謝主席。剛剛蔡委員講的沒錯，要推展臺灣觀光很重要，事實上，在交通部轄下所有的單位都應該要橫向的聯繫，我今天要特別講的是什麼？剛剛蔡委員講的、我們最強的會長講的，「TEAM TAIWAN冠軍郵摺」看起來是中華郵政的業務，但是它也是一種觀光行銷啊！可是我們從來都沒有橫向聯繫，大家都是各做各的。我先講，現在中華郵政的預購秒殺，雖然剛剛董事長說這是第一波，未來還有第二波和其他的計畫，但是我們要談的是什麼？我們要如何用比較新的觀念，而且是跟得上時代的觀念來進行行銷。這個行銷不是只有在推中華郵政、幫中華郵政賺錢，這個行銷也可以向國際行銷臺灣，賺國外的錢嘛！對不對？我再講一次，現在看起來大家都是各做各的，少了整合行銷的觀念。部長，這個給你做參考，我覺得觀光對交通部來講是重中之重的業務，也是把臺灣的國際形象搞好最重要的關鍵，所以這個產業、大家也希望政府能夠帶頭來拚臺灣的觀光，這整個產業鏈裡面所有的從業人口很多，還可以造就臺灣地方的經濟商機，這實在是影響很大。部長，這個提供給你參考。","為什麼我要講中華郵政？其實中華郵政有它過去的傳統，這個王董事長自己應該知道，這是從你們網站下載的。我們從60年代就不斷的，只要有國際賽事，不管是少棒、青棒或成棒，只要我們有得冠軍或獎項，我們都會發行紀念郵票，這個是從民國60年一直到108年，今年是因為12強賽世界冠軍，所以我們有發行。董事長，中華郵政碰到這麼天大的機會，你們有沒有藉此來行銷我們中華郵政？這個是我們的強項，也是我們獨占市場的，你有沒有想過，這個可以包裝行銷，可以當做下一次的行銷？為什麼？因為臺灣棒球很棒，臺灣很強，這也是臺灣棒球的發展史，所以不是只有這個郵摺或是後來的紀念郵票而已，這個可以整套的去行銷。","包括最強的會長現在已經說了，那個獎盃是要巡迴臺灣去做展示，可是呢？101開始爭取，可是其他的單位還沒有人跳出來說要爭取。為什麼我會說中華郵政這一次可以為自己做形象的行銷？因為賺錢最重要的機會就在於行銷，那行銷要不要有人？要有人啊！我不知道中華郵政有沒有相關的行銷人才？整套的，而不是想到什麼就做什麼。董事長，有嗎？"],["王董事長國材：有，我們現在有公共事務處，它負責行銷。我跟委員報告，事實上，這一次我們有三波高潮，明信片、郵摺和紀念郵票，然後紀念郵票明年還會接經典賽的預賽。當然，如果經典賽到複賽我們得了冠軍，當然那時候一定會再發一次。"],["何委員欣純：所以啊！我的意思是說要多元行銷，對不對？各式各樣，只要能夠爭取曝光、行銷的機會，我們都要。甚至觀光署對外的網頁，在配合觀光的行銷以外，運動也是一種行銷，運動產業也可以行銷臺灣，剛剛最強的會長也講了，日本和韓國的球迷也會來這裡看棒球，只要臺灣有舉辦國際賽事，他們也會來，是不是？譬如說：臺中也有啊！對不對？所以我的意思是說──交通部向下推觀光和行銷，也可以像民間企業一樣異業結盟，大家可以互相合作拉抬，甚至增加曝光的機會，對不對？這個才是整套的，我希望我們能夠有這樣的人才。"],["王董事長國材：我們來加強，我們現在有很多的行銷都是委託行銷公司來處理。跟委員報告，的確，像發行12強這個郵摺，這也是我們中華郵政最近這一波讓人家重視到我們的網站都掛掉了，這是過去沒有的。"],["何委員欣純：是啊！曾幾何時中華郵政的網站被衝到掛掉，那表示多熱啊！對不對？"],["王董事長國材：是，所以我們覺得爭取這種、尤其是國家非常榮耀的時刻，當然，還要配合部長這邊的觀光發展，我們會持續來進行。"],["何委員欣純：而且我覺得它不僅僅是觀光行銷，不僅僅是幫中華郵政累積盈餘、賺錢，更重要的是它是歷史記憶，這個東西留下來是一個紀念，對買的人或是參與的人來講，這是他人生中很光榮和重要的記憶，所以你會發行郵票。","接下來要說專業和觀光，今天也有人提到郵政博物館，為什麼我剛剛會說你要爭取12強冠軍獎盃來展覽？因為你們有郵政博物館這個場館，可是你們的場館做得很不專業、很不到位，而且大家都認為，第一個，管理有問題；第二個，策展的專業有問題；第三個，連開放的時間都很官僚式，沒有任何其他的配套。如果中華郵政要止血，不要繼續走老路、老套的話，就必須要想盡辦法打入年輕人、年輕化，這個郵政博物館就是讓你們接近年輕家庭一個很好的親子互動場所，那中華郵政為什麼不做得專業一點呢？為什麼不親切一點，讓年輕家庭可以接受？為什麼你們要發行12強冠軍的郵票？因為年輕人都在看棒球，不分年齡大家都在看棒球，要讓更多的人接受我們中華郵政，不是嗎？","郵政博物館裡面還蘊含我們的歷史和文化藝術，第一個，為什麼各館的開放時間不一致？第二個，管理的階層不一致？第三個，有沒有專業的策展人？董事長，你知道嗎？"],["王董事長國材：我跟委員報告，我回答你這一個問題，我跟部長討論以後，我們從今天開始，本館本來就只有休禮拜一，3個分館從今天開始只休禮拜一，其他時間都開放，這是第一個。第二個，地方郵局的管理，的確，這次我去3個郵博館看過後，因為他們原來是直接由郵博館的總館來管理，所以它是以郵票為主，但是我覺得這個有點可惜。"],["何委員欣純：很可惜，太單一了。"],["王董事長國材：臺中郵博館剛開幕，委員可以去看一下，事實上，它非常精采，我們是希望它可以變成郵政的生活館，這個意思是說，除了郵票以外，它也可以有很多的文創產品和歷史。它也可以結合地方，讓民眾能夠去的一個地方，如果是這樣的話，由地方就近來經營會比較好，大概是這樣的想法。"],["何委員欣純：但是經營要有專業、經營要有人力、經營要有人啊！總公司這邊、董事長這邊願不願意投資，好好的把郵政博物館和分館整理好來顯示它的專業，然後顯示出空間的改造？這個都需要總公司和部長的支持，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們當然支持要有專業的策展單位。"],["何委員欣純：是嘛！你要有專業的人才，為什麼我要幫你們想財源？因為要開源，對不對？剛剛有很多委員都已經講過要開源，因為你們一直在虧錢，那要怎麼開源？我提一個例子，故宮的禮品部有在展售你們中華郵政的限量發行郵票，你知道嗎？"],["王董事長國材：我知道。"],["何委員欣純：你知道他們一套都賣多少嗎？"],["王董事長國材：包裝以後比我們原來的票值高很多。"],["何委員欣純：對，按照你們的票值來賣，一套可能只要幾百塊、幾十塊，但是他們一套是賣1,200元、1,500元，甚至是2,000元以上，為什麼這個故宮會，你們不會呢？這是你們所生產的郵票，這麼值得紀念的郵票、套票，你們怎麼不懂得經營和行銷呢？","第二個，我建議可以用文化幣，如果你們願意包裝行銷，故宮在賣你們中華郵政的郵票、套票時，它可以使用文化幣，那會吸引更多的年輕人來購買，這也是行銷，要創新你們的思考，對不對？尤其文化幣現在要加碼，13歲到15歲可以領取600元，15歲到18歲是1,200元。"],["王董事長國材：我跟委員報告，事實上，中華郵政有很多的創意商品，就是雖然它像郵票，但是它做成杯子或是紀念品。事實上，故宮也是跟我們合作。"],["何委員欣純：是啊！可是你賣的是郵票的票值，但是它賣的是整套的價值、藝術的價值。"],["王董事長國材：是，文化幣用在集郵或是郵政博物館，我想這部分我們會跟文化部和部長討論。"],["何委員欣純：這個要爭取，如果你們有心要好好的投資、經營郵政博物館，要讓它更親近我們一般的人民，要讓一般的年輕家庭跟親子都可以進入我們的郵政博物館去認識我們的郵票、歷史文化和它很有價值的紀念性郵票，甚至衍生出很多的文化創意產品，我覺得這也是我們中華郵政要開源的方法之一。文化幣是現成就可以讓年輕人拿著去購買，請儘快談好，接下來的紀念郵票或是與棒球有關的產品，年輕人就可以拿文化幣來購買了，難道不是嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們會跟文化部商討這個議題。"],["何委員欣純：是嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我們會來爭取。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得要用創新的方法和創新的思維，然後整體的行銷，要讓中華郵政這個我覺得非常棒的郵政博物館，還有相關的紀念郵票，郵務要能夠開源，要讓中華郵政真的煥然一新，這對我們中華郵政的形象很有幫助，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["王董事長國材：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何委員。","接下來有請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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上就需要旅宿嘛所以觀光的角度我覺得應該是這個樣子最後一個小問題齁這個部長你這個我有看到這個我們郵政公司啊對於這個Team Taiwan冠軍遊者啊"},{"start":559.334,"end":559.821,"text":"首波就秒殺。"},{"start":563.476,"end":591.898,"text":"那個董事長首波就秒殺啦齁我看了一下這個你們遊者第一波只做五千份總共應該是一萬啦因為還會有第二次一萬喔就算不管啦就算你做到兩萬我還是覺得你太小看這個冠軍的威力我們現在下個禮拜一二在這個網購就不限量對啦啊那個數字兩天的這個預購這個數字晚以後我們就跟包括"},{"start":592.898,"end":606.107,"text":"這個中華職棒我們在談這個授權就馬上這個看有多少份就給多少份對我的意思就是說郵政公司對市場的敏感度應該要更高一點你看到我們前面對不對職棒雜誌一賣就20萬本"},{"start":609.978,"end":634.991,"text":"你們這個遊者設計那個五千五千一萬的這個實在是敏感度我現在講是賺錢啦我希望郵政公司收益能夠更好嘛所以我剛有再報告大概大概這樣我們有一個步驟啦像今天開始就是明信片大概有四十萬張然後遊者先一萬份然後第二波易過就是我們要看真的是要探探那個市場"},{"start":635.931,"end":664.002,"text":"不是,我的意思告訴你說有一些指標你可以不用探了嘛,就你問一下我們到底賣了中華紙棒賣了雜誌賣了幾萬份你其實大概就可以預估嘛,所以我的意思說我不是責怪你們啦,是說你這種錢你再不賺,你想到要出郵票是好事啦,還有很多單位連想都沒想過這個事情,你想到要出郵票是好事,但是你對於量的預估齁,這個賺錢的速度太慢了,"},{"start":664.83,"end":692.712,"text":"好不好,這個要加油啦,不然中華郵政剛剛也有人在檢討你啊,你這個賺錢喔,這個已經獨家嘛喔,要怎麼發展,從過去的這個郵票要怎麼,郵務業務要怎麼去推展,我們還有很多優勢嘛。根委員報告齁,那個明年1月22號有四枚紀念郵票,大概有60萬份。60萬套,那個比較多。那個就是,因為紀念郵票是記在我們的這個郵政的發展史裡面的,所以那個包括"},{"start":693.713,"end":693.933,"text":"謝謝大家,謝謝主席,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時7分）謝謝主席，請陳部長、觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請陳部長、周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，今天早上我在辦公室已經聽到你多次表達在兩岸觀光上基本的對等跟利益互惠原則的立場，我是聽得很清楚，但大家不斷的在repeat這件事情，我也覺得有點奇怪，但是本席有一點可能要提醒你一下，中華民國沒有限制任何一個人到大陸地區旅行、觀光、經商，但是你要講一下……"],["陳部長世凱：軍人是不行的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對！對！那個是我們特殊的規定，我說的是泛指一般人，但反過來你反而要提醒大家，臺灣有一些人去中國很危險，譬如說王義川就很危險，當然本席比他更危險，因為我是認證的頑固臺獨分子，我代表中華民國接見裴洛西議長來立法院訪問，本席代表中華民國、代表立法院接見，我覺得很光榮，但這樣的接見對方就叫我是臺獨頑固分子，所以要提醒觀光署的一件事情是，有一種臺獨是他認為你是臺獨你就是臺獨，這個不限於蔡其昌！這在臺灣各行各業都有可能發生，只要中國高興，他願意、他對你不爽，他就把你列為臺獨分子，你就可能會被逮捕，我覺得這個風險的提示，是政府應該要做的，這不是危言聳聽啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：我想大家在媒體上看過太多的例子，這些人也不一定是民進黨黨員，這些人也不一定做過了什麼事情，但是很奇怪的，他被滯留；很奇怪的，他被逮捕；很多人甚至手機被盤查，臺灣作為一個民主法治的國家，我們都覺得這是侵犯人權，是完全不能接受的！但不好意思，對岸就是這樣！本席過去對觀光署的指正裡面，其實我個人不會去阻擋兩岸的觀光往來，但本席過去也不斷在提醒一件事情：天上掉下來的禮物叫機會財。也就是天上掉禮物下來，如果不用成本的話就去撿；如果我們的旅宿業者面對來自對岸掉下來的禮物，還堅持不撿，我覺得太過！有天上掉下來的禮物就去撿，但千萬不要花成本去準備撿天上掉下來的禮物，不然會很慘！在2020年之前，我在交通委員那麼久的時間裡，我講過N次了。過去我講這個的時候，還有其他黨的委員說我們危言聳聽。為什麼不是危言聳聽？因為全世界的民主自由國家，所有商務、所有觀光旅行往來，都建立在法治基礎上，而這個法治通常是讓人民有自由選擇的權利。但不好意思，我們隔壁、對岸的中國沒有這個問題！他只要命令一下，就限制人民去哪一個國家，讓那個國家因為陸客來而觀光一下子展現了前所未有的榮景。不過你只要讓他不高興，他就立刻讓你的觀光崩潰！這點不只臺灣，很多鄰近國家都有這個問題。所以我為什麼說如果不提示性地讓觀光業者知道，而花很多錢……這就像疫情前，我們有那麼多人為了準備迎接陸客到來，投入那麼多錢，最後血本無歸！我講這個完全沒有政黨立場，也沒有什麼意識形態，純粹是在商言商。觀光署對於觀光旅宿業者該有的提醒：該讓事情的本質展現，即商業本質跟統戰的本質、背後有政治力可以主導一切的本質展現，如果要賺這種錢，皮就要繃緊！要賺這種錢的人皮要繃緊一點，因為你不知道什麼時候他不爽就收了，全世界沒有人這樣做生意！所以我們在商言商，要讓大家清楚知道風險在哪裡。","兩件事情提醒部長記得：兩岸的觀光往來，兩岸要什麼往來，我都不會特別反對，也沒什麼特別的意識形態。但風險在哪裡，政府要做好提示。要過去，我們從來沒有阻擋；想自由行，現在、隨時、此刻就可以去買一張機票去中國，沒有任何阻礙，但政府要提醒去到那個地方現在的風險是什麼，有一種風險叫做對方認為你是臺獨，你可能會被逮捕，你可能會被拘禁，你可能會被搜身，你的手機可能會被檢查，我認為這是政府應該要提醒的事情。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：但我也要替觀光業者講一句話，在面對陸客這種不穩定、不確定、政治掛帥的商業模式底下，署長，我還是老話一句，這一年來我已經提醒你很多次了。像最近韓國遊客變多了，我們在臺灣辦了12強比賽，光大巨蛋周邊的旅宿房價就漲了兩成，供不應求。我們臺灣可以吸引到美、日、韓，其他我們認為它是民主國家，政治風險、商業風險很低的觀光客來到臺灣，而他的消費能力可能也很好。因此，觀光署怎麼去引導這些旅客，我覺得這才是臺灣觀光發展最重要的基礎跟命脈，部長，你同意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這部分是我們這一、兩年所努力的方向。到現在為止，以今年來說，北美來臺灣的旅客已經超過疫情之前。也就是說，我們在北美開發旅客的部分其實是有成果的，已經超越疫情之前。至於旅客多元化也是最近一直在努力的方向。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，但我覺得還是不滿意，因為臺灣沒有千萬觀光客，說實在話，實在不合理！"],["陳部長世凱：明年我們的目標就是千萬。"],["蔡委員其昌：我當然知道，上次我問過了，雖然我不能接受，因為觀光署講地震什麼的，說實在話，日本地震和我們一樣多，為什麼日本可以成長？所以找到原因，找到解決方式，然後貫徹執行，這是觀光署要做的。其實我們還有很多觀光材可以運用，你也看到那麼多例子了，一個棒球比賽可以帶動這麼多人來臺灣觀光！明年2月又要比了，當然，這一次來的國家比較遠一點，來的難度高，但它也是一個競賽！它不但是競賽，還可以促進國旅，因為在大巨蛋比，中南部的球迷要上來，也可以在臺北住宿，不一定要當天坐高鐵回去，所以觀光署的思維要更多元廣泛。不只棒球比賽，其他還有很多，像電競、演唱會、各式各樣的商演，都可以跟觀光做很好的結合，這就是多元化，而且不只國家多元化，我們的觀光思維應該不是只有規劃好去旅行，只要離開家其實就開始進行觀光、消費，甚至住一個晚上就需要旅宿。我覺得觀光的角度應該是這樣。","最後一個小問題，我有看到郵政公司做了「TEAM TAIWAN冠軍郵摺」，首波就秒殺。董事長，首波就秒殺！我看了一下發現，你們郵摺第一波只做5,000份……"],["陳部長世凱：總共應該是1萬，因為還會有第二批。"],["蔡委員其昌：1萬？就算你做到2萬，我還是覺得你太小看冠軍的威力！"],["王董事長國材：跟委員報告，下個禮拜一、二的網購就不限量……"],["蔡委員其昌：對！"],["王董事長國材：至於兩天限量預購的數字用完以後，我們就會跟中華職棒談授權，屆時看要多少份就給多少份。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是，郵政公司對市場的敏感度應該要更高一點。你看職棒雜誌，一賣就20萬本！但你們的郵摺只設計5,000、1萬份？這個敏感度實在是……我現在講的是賺錢，我希望郵政公司的收益能夠更好……"],["王董事長國材：我再跟委員報告，我們有一個步驟，像從今天開始就是發行明信片，大概有40萬張，郵摺1萬份，接著是第二波預購，我們要探一下市場……"],["蔡委員其昌：不是，我的意思是有一些指標在，所以你可以不用探了。"],["王董事長國材：是、是。"],["蔡委員其昌：你去問一下到底中華職棒這本雜誌賣了幾萬份，其實大概就可以預估了。我不是責怪你們，而是這種錢你再不賺……你有想到要出郵票是好事，其實很多單位連想都沒想到這件事，所以你能想到出郵票是好事。但對於量的預估，讓賺錢的速度太慢了，好不好？這要加油！不然剛剛有人在檢討中華郵政，你們賺錢……你們都已經獨占了，到底要怎麼發展？從過去郵票、郵務業務要怎麼去推展，其實你們還有很多優勢。"],["王董事長國材：跟委員報告，明年1月22日要發行4枚紀念郵票，大概有60萬套。"],["陳部長世凱：60萬套，那個比較多。"],["王董事長國材：因為紀念郵票會記在郵政發展史裡，所以包括教練、投手等，全部都會在裡面。我們本來打算分3波，期望能讓熱潮一直延續，明年1月20日是經典賽預賽，大概是這樣，我們有步驟，但是數量的確少估了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，太保守了，這樣的賺錢速度主席也不滿意。謝謝大家，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","接下來有請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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資訊網站上跟委員報告"},{"start":272.452,"end":297.299,"text":"因為這個一開始的定義它就不是政令宣導它是業務宣導因為我們在做觀光的在做推廣業務它本來就好像在賣東西一樣它需要做一些行銷那些行銷我告訴你司法院有沒有要做業務宣導它也要做業務宣導你只要業務宣導你要委辦給公務機關全部都是政令宣導基金就會有兩類因為基金它叫作業型它本身有作業運作跟"},{"start":299.119,"end":325.092,"text":"一般公務機關是不一樣,我們公務機關全部都是要證明宣導。所以你現在講說這些錢從哪裡來的?這個是基金,觀光發展基金。觀光發展基金的經費,所以這些經費都不需要登載嗎?我告訴你,我認為說。不需要依照證明宣導的部分去登載。那他剛剛署長已經講了,他依照採購法,該公告的他就公告。"},{"start":327.253,"end":349.986,"text":"所以我們是完全符合法律﹖這個部分就是你們就遊走在法律的邊緣這個部分之後我也會要求行政院主席總處重新要去做一個新的正確的函式這個不是像你們這樣去做解釋的是花了這麼多錢日本花了一億多一億千千多萬然後你看在德國柏林也是花了九千多萬的這個廣告宣傳這些都是政府的納稅錢做了這些廣告宣傳行銷到底來了多少的觀光客"},{"start":355.765,"end":356.946,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":379.039,"end":401.893,"text":"本國的旅行業者組團可不可以組大陸團的這件事情你們就是違法我在不止一次的在公開場合裡面甚至質詢行政院院長的時候我就有講了你們觀光發展觀光條例可以這樣解釋嗎這些旅行業者帶團去是有損害國家利益嗎損害什麼國家利益你們講清楚請你們現在回答這個法令上"},{"start":405.365,"end":433.579,"text":"這個跟委員報告,我們在跟旅行業、旅館業、遊樂區業在這個按照發展觀光條例的執行來講是,這件事情本來就是不對等的方式在做處理,而且我們確實也被調查。主席,您要說不對等的方式,我們現在跟大陸有哪一項事情你認為是對等的?也確實對……啊?有哪一件事情你覺得是對等的嗎?我們現在台灣跟大陸的關係,你認為有哪一件事情是對等的?"},{"start":436.476,"end":449.267,"text":"對你們損害國家利益可以這樣講因為他們來的我們去的人都他們來的人少所以這叫不對等所以這叫我們去就叫有損害國家利益是這樣的意思嗎不是算人數的"},{"start":450.472,"end":474.878,"text":"好那不是算人數算什麼請部部長您您告訴我什麼叫有所害國家國家利益我們現在自由行到中國去旅遊我們的國民都相當的自由行自由行是自由行我現在講的是對於觀光旅館業就是對於觀光旅館業這是他們涉及他們業者的生存的問題對不對而且呢就是在參加台灣的團然後出去希望他們的旅客來不是希望我們的旅客去"},{"start":476.124,"end":489.637,"text":"我們台灣的你認為我們台灣的旅行業不需要賺台灣自己同胞的錢嗎?我們的旅宿業者當然是希望他們的旅客可以來台灣住飯店。我現在要講的是觀光業就是包含這些旅行業者"},{"start":491.459,"end":494.1,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":512.264,"end":529.994,"text":"在台灣地區就是兩岸人民關係條例裡面有講啊如果說是你限制人民的這個行動自由到大陸對岸去或者是基於有什麼樣的一個狀況這是必須要經過立法院的議決才可以去限制台灣地區人民進入大陸地區的"},{"start":532.076,"end":543.685,"text":"你們現在有做這樣的事情嗎?是用什麼要突發狀況嗎?是用什麼?你想到做哪裡?你沒有經過立法院的議決嗎?中華民國的人民沒有任何一個人目前沒有任何一個人要去自由行是不行的"},{"start":546.505,"end":564.844,"text":"我這個我告訴你們你們實在太限說好那旅行業者組團去這難道不是限制旅行業者的營業自由嗎這不是這不是限制大家可以共同組團一起去大陸的自由嗎你們的作為就是違法我已經不止一次的講"},{"start":566.145,"end":569.446,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例講得很清楚,你任何的限制都必須經過立法院的議決。以上本席最後要求,觀光署你必須要將近四年來你們所有的廣告宣傳在國內國外城市只要是廣告宣傳案都要列表送給本席,而且要求你們必須要在網頁上資訊公開。"},{"start":592.095,"end":602.33,"text":"關於台灣的觀光旅行業者不能夠組團到大陸去觀光的這件事情,請交通部要給我一個法制延續報告。謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時57分）主席好，請部長和署長。"],["主席：陳部長、周署長。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝部長跟署長。首先請教署長，我知道觀光署過去常常都有做宣傳臺灣城市的廣告，或者為推廣臺灣各種旅遊，在國內、國外都有做很多業務宣導的廣告，請問，這些業務宣導費用，你們有按時、如實登載在你們的媒宣網頁上嗎？"],["周署長永暉：對，按照採購法規定，我們都有公告登載，然後還有一個事後檢討、事後評估。"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？你們都有登載？好，我先講一下，過去你們在國外的這些業務宣導費用，其實金額都非常高，不管是德國、日本、法國等等，我覺得宣傳臺灣的城市、觀光行銷非常好……"],["周署長永暉：因為這幾個大城市……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是像這麼龐大的廣告費用……"],["周署長永暉：它本身就很貴。"],["翁委員曉玲：本身就很貴嘛，對不對？譬如日本，你花了一億多的經費在宣傳，但是這些經費為什麼本席在你們的網頁上，都沒有看到你們有如實登載在你們的媒體宣傳專區上？"],["周署長永暉：它有兩個部分，剛剛委員特別提示的，可能是一些不需要按照第六十二條規定來辦理的部分，這個跟文化部一樣，我們有一些是……"],["翁委員曉玲：來，看一下，你剛剛講的第六十二條之一，預算法第六十二條之一是說政策及業務宣導預算，基本上應該要在資訊公開處公布相關執行內容，並且要在主計總處的網站專區公布，按季送立法院備查。但是本席發現你們都沒有公布，每一個月都沒有公布，這已經是違法了，你知道嗎？"],["周署長永暉：沒有，沒有，不可能做違法的事啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：如果說不能違法，為什麼都沒有在主計總處的網站上看到？"],["周署長永暉：如果委員有需要，我們可以整理以後提供給委員，沒有問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：這不是說什麼整理後，你們本就應該如實公布，而且應該要從108年，甚至更早的時間，就必須逐筆公布，你們有沒有去看一下其他機關的網站，他們都有把所有的業務宣導費跟廣告費登載在官網上，要在官網上面還有專區上面都要逐條的……"],["周署長永暉：因為沒辦法逐一啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：為什麼沒有辦法逐一？署長，我真的覺得你的法制觀念很弱、很差，這是我們預算法裡面規定的，今天觀光署主計室主任有沒有來？杜主任，你不知道這個規定嗎？"],["杜主任曉縈：報告委員，因為我們觀光基金是編在推展費，這是符合附屬單位預算執行要點的，為了推展……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以推展費不屬於觀光行銷、不屬於廣告行銷費嗎？"],["杜主任曉縈：不是，它推展費的部分，是為了推展我們的勞務跟業務，來增加我們基金的收入，依照規定，它是編列在推展費的部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們來看看之前在這裡面的項目，宣傳行銷計畫、廣告，這些都是你們的標案，這都是從你們的網頁上面抓下來的資料，這些竟然都不屬於文宣的費用嗎？這不應該要登載嗎？"],["張處長信一：跟委員報告一下，我是交通部會計處張處長，因為行政院當時在對第六十二條之一規定的時候，就有分兩類，一個是所謂的政令宣導，完全是符合剛剛委員講的那個部分；另外一個是有關業務的宣導，業務宣導就不是政令宣導，我們現在編的這一筆錢就是業務宣導……"],["翁委員曉玲：這個我清楚，除了我自己本身有研究這個議題外，我也在教這個，而它只是說，你們可以不用標示為廣告，但不是說你們不需要把這些細項登載在公開資訊網站上。"],["張處長信一：跟委員報告，因為這個一開始的定義就不是政令宣導，它是業務宣導，因為我們在做觀光的，在做推廣業務的，本來就好像是在賣東西一樣，需要做一些行銷，那些行銷在定義上……"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，司法院有沒有要做業務宣導？它也要做業務宣導，你只要是業務宣導，你要委辦、委包給……"],["張處長信一：公務機關全部都是政令宣導，而基金就會有兩類，因為基金是叫做作業型，本身有作業運作，跟一般公務機關是不一樣的，我們公務機關全部都是叫政令宣導。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你現在說這些錢是從哪裡來的？"],["張處長信一：這個是基金，是觀光發展基金，我們作業基金編了錢來做推廣……"],["翁委員曉玲：是觀光發展基金的經費，所以這些經費都不需要登載嗎？我告訴你……"],["張處長信一：不需要依照政令宣導的部分去登載，剛剛署長已經講了，依照採購法該公告的他就公告，所以我們是完全符合法令的。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個部分你們就是遊走在法律的邊緣，就這個部分，之後我也會要求行政院主計總處重新去做一個新的、正確的函釋，不應是像你們這樣去做解釋的，花了這麼多錢，在日本花了一億七千多萬；在德國柏林也是花了九千多萬的廣告宣傳費，這些都是人民的納稅錢，做了這些廣告宣傳行銷，到底來了多少觀光客，這些難道不應該公開嗎？今天觀光署說這樣的話，把這些案子全部都隱藏在你們自己個別的標案裡面，沒有清楚的把資訊揭露，讓大家可以去檢視觀光署你們這裡做的這些事情到底對不對。","還有，我要講的是，你們對於我們本國旅行業者可不可以組大陸團這件事情，你們就是違法，我不只一次的在公開場合裡面，甚至質詢行政院院長的時候就講了，你們發展觀光條例可以這樣解釋嗎？這些旅行業者帶團確實有損害國家利益嗎？損害什麼國家利益，你們講清楚，請你們現在回答。"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告，我們在跟旅行業、旅館業、遊樂區業，按照發展觀光條例的執行來講，這件事情本來就是以不對等的方式在做處理，而且我們確實……"],["翁委員曉玲：署長剛剛提到不對等的方式，我們現在跟大陸有哪一些事情你覺得是對等的嗎？我們現在臺灣跟大陸的關係中，你認為有哪一件事情是對等的？因為我們去的人多他們來的人少，所以這叫不對等？所以我們去叫做有損害國家利益？是這樣的意思嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這不是算人數的。"],["翁委員曉玲：不是算人數那是算什麼？請部長告訴我什麼叫有損害國家利益？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在自由行到中國去旅遊，我們的國民都相當的自由……"],["翁委員曉玲：自由行是自由行，我現在講的是觀光旅館業，這是涉及業者他們生存的問題，對不對？而且參加臺灣的團出去……"],["陳部長世凱：觀光旅館業應該是希望他們的旅客來，不是希望我們的旅客去。"],["翁委員曉玲：你認為我們臺灣的旅行業不需要賺臺灣自己同胞的錢嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們的旅宿業者當然是希望他們的旅客可以來臺灣住飯店，不是把我們的客人……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要講的是，觀光業就是包含這些旅行業者，他們能夠在臺灣組團、組臺客團到大陸去，這對我們臺灣同胞來說，也是一種權益的保障，你讓自由行的客人到那邊去，有時候可能會發生一些危險，所以這是完全不合邏輯的，重要的是，這根本就是違法的。","我們看一下最後一張PPT，兩岸人民關係條例裡面有講，如果你限制人民的行動自由到大陸、對岸去，或者是基於什麼樣的一個狀況，這必須經過立法院的議決，才可以限制臺灣地區人民進入大陸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:643.485,"end":648.448,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":671.739,"end":688.492,"text":"問一下中華郵政,抱歉抱歉,對不起,已經超過時間,不好意思。這個因為我們看到我們講本業啦,我知道你們這幾年因為你剛到任啦,我也不是說在講怪你啦,就是中華郵政我覺得有時候要面對一下,"},{"start":689.272,"end":713.241,"text":"有歸零思考的我知道你們比如說儲蓄甚至保險很努力啊去拉保險這個部分可是你中華郵政其實有個本業啦就是郵務業務郵務你們的稅購盡力啊我們就算了這6年從2019年開始是一路下滑一路下滑到今年到今年2024年還沒過完啦現在已經負14.1億啊"},{"start":719.076,"end":735.577,"text":"你們在本月到最後發生什麼事情啊?你有去研究嗎?各位報告,的確它是從去年到今年,郵務面臨很大的虧損。那主要是在除了郵件以外,是讓它包裹跟快捷也下降。"},{"start":736.534,"end":762.764,"text":"大概我從8月21日上任以後已經針對這個部分包括我們在數位化的介面還有包括我們舊客戶跟新客戶的拜訪都積極進行我想就是提高品質把客人找回來這是他們最重要的工作王董事長真的啦要拜託你啦因為你有你是整面全面的觀念你去注入到中華郵政真的啦不要以不變"},{"start":763.524,"end":767.007,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":786.028,"end":805.02,"text":"國際包裹減少了10.5、自轉油量減少了9.3。他那個統計報告各行各業把新竹物流每個都在買車每個都在發財財海運的快遞每一個都在增班只有我們以不變應萬變的中華郵政我跟你講你們現在面對的對手是什麼樣"},{"start":806.301,"end":808.464,"text":"包括你剛才談到蝦皮的電對電,我們現在是把我們的愛油箱也要轉成電對電的一個服務。"},{"start":828.686,"end":855.505,"text":"我跟委員報告最近他們這幾個月開始這個衰退已經開始減緩了那我是期待是在明年的七月包括我們的數位化的這些民眾的服務做好以後明年七月希望我給他們目標就明年開始止跌回升那現在有很多比較新的一些作為或是過去在中華郵政比較消極的跟客戶的關係這部分我都在加強中"},{"start":856.306,"end":880.448,"text":"我想說就以這樣的目標我們來進行。拜託你,現在兩岸的網購、電郵的一個部分,其實主要的包裹大概80%到90%來自大陸,可是你們在這邊的包裹業務,我看順豐快遞一些民間業者,我跟你講你們,我覺得你們這一部分是不是重新思考,因為我知道你們好像整個業務只交給某一個承辦人,"},{"start":883.471,"end":890.581,"text":"帶了30年40年的一個觀念拜託重新去哪裡有生意去哪裡抓這是我的建議好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時31分）謝謝主席。有請交通部陳部長……"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["魯委員明哲：還有觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好！"],["周署長永暉：召委好！"],["魯委員明哲：好！今天主要是談到觀光，我們看到520賴總統上任的時候，其實那時候部長是發言人，我相信他很多的想法你應該都知道……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：而且現在你有機會來執行他的部分政策，我們是滿樂觀其成的……"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["魯委員明哲：我覺得現在最重要的，大家都說政治歸政治、教育歸教育、文化歸文化、觀光歸觀光、經濟歸經濟，你贊不贊成？"],["陳部長世凱：滿贊成的。"],["魯委員明哲：至於做得到做不到，好像困難還是滿多的，有時候不見得是交通部，我可以理解，現況就是這樣。","談到經濟歸經濟，目前看起來，兩岸之間，臺灣是貿易順差，而且順差大概一千多億美金，如果拿掉兩岸之間的貿易順差，在整個世界來看，臺灣非常可能是逆差，所以當然我們就沒有意見，ECFA最好不要取消，陸委會也表示好多了。其實我在想不見得每一件事我們都要算，我們覺得主要要對等、互相有善意，這是真的需要，可是如果你要錙銖必較，教育或是觀光的領域，每一個都要去算的話，糟糕了！他拿貿易來跟我們算，要平衡，是不是？那他開放幾項，我們就要開放幾項，我們是要比這個嗎？比這種對等嗎？其實我覺得有些不見得要。","最近我們常常看到委員或者有一些地方的學者拿我們觀光的復甦跟日韓來做比較，其實大家沒說的是日韓能夠快速復甦主要是第一時間大陸客能夠到日韓旅遊，這是一個非常重要的原因，我想我們就談觀光，不談其他……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["魯委員明哲：實際上，他們有幾百萬人，對不對？如果我們有幾百萬人，我們也差不多達標了。我是覺得臺灣的業者也希望能夠賺錢，尤其觀光業者。過去開放陸客來臺的時期，人數最高的時候差不多來臺旅客是超過400萬，疫情之前，大概也有200、300萬，陸客的部分有一定的產值，超過一千多億，這是當時觀光局的統計，疫情之後，就沒有什麼統計數字，所以剛剛部長說可能還要統計。現在正好碰到這個上海團，他們特別說願意開放上海居民來臺旅遊，你剛剛有說，現在這到底可不可以做到？因為我們希望他們來臺花錢，讓我們的產業賺錢，我覺得這個目標是賺觀光財，你的想法怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：我們當然是歡迎，如果他們能夠開放的話，不過現在的狀況是他們文旅部也還沒宣布，所以這個其實也不是操之在我，這個是由他們自己來決定，如果他們決定了，我們其實態度上是歡迎的，歡迎他們可以過來。"],["魯委員明哲：好，如果我們記憶沒錯的話，金門、馬祖也是中華民國的一部分吧！"],["陳部長世凱：是、是。"],["魯委員明哲：金門、馬祖已經開放了……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：金馬先行開放福建4,000萬人旅遊，署長，請問一下，當時金馬開放是誰宣布的？"],["周署長永暉：這是陸委會的權責。"],["魯委員明哲：不是陸委會宣布，我說對岸是誰宣布的？你們一直在計較上海市長、副市長宣布的，我就請問一下，這是誰宣布的，你還記得嗎？到最後9月27日是誰公告的？回憶一下……"],["周署長永暉：他們也有透過文旅部宣布。"],["魯委員明哲：就是福建省公安廳發的公告。你們那時候講為什麼是公安廳？莫名其妙！為什麼不是文旅部？拜託！牛角尖不要再去鑽啦！文旅部，你們要怎麼去對接你們去對接，去看看他這個話是不是騙人，現在證明了，你認為胡說八道，你去證明。不管是誰宣布，誰宣布或發言人宣布，都不重要，可是你在計較這個，因為現在金馬開放也不是文旅部宣布，所以我拜託，當然你們實務的對接該怎麼對接，我們真的是希望能夠展開，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告召委，在交通部及觀光署的部分，您這樣指教，其實我覺得很合理，就是該對接的部分，我們能做的範圍我們來對接看看，有時候不是我們能對接得上，但是我們能做的我們先來做做看。"],["魯委員明哲：對，你對接之後，搞不好他是騙人，騙人的話，大家就講清楚，不要卡在這裡，這麼難過嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["魯委員明哲：直接就去對接一下啦！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["魯委員明哲：我們希望臺灣觀光的產值能夠提升，尤其偏遠的地方，不過真的沒有辦法，現在很多商務客都集中在都市，他們以辦事為主，真的是這樣，有些來臺的，不管是移工或做事的，他其實1天旅館也不會住，就馬上去做他的工作了，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["魯委員明哲：所以在這裡比較有關係的，就是陸客，因為他們小時候聽過很多歌，什麼阿里山的姑娘，他就會想到花東，甚至墾丁，這正好能夠串接，尤其現在花東的旅遊很不景氣，所以這個部分要特別拜託一下。","我們來看看，現在金馬有開放，剛開始我們看到一些負面新聞，說根本沒人要來，開放也是假的！但是在兩個月的時間，9月27日說開放，正式第一團來是10月5日，到12月9日為止，差不多兩個月的時間，我們昨天跟金門縣政府拿到最新的統計資料，因為他們吞吐量也有限，船就那麼多，所以也拜託你們，是不是航港局能夠多開一點航班……"],["陳部長世凱：有，報告召委，這個我們有在進行，增加航班的部分。"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，我們只是在想當年歸零的時刻到現在為止，將近兩個月多一點的時間，金門縣的大陸觀光客平均每一天大概821人，在疫情之後，已經恢復到78%，目前金門縣政府的資料是這樣，因為才開放兩個月，就這個比例，如果未來能夠開放的話，我覺得對臺灣整體的旅遊業是幫忙非常大的，所以我還是在這裡拜託，畢竟您做過發言人，對其他部會也多有認識，是不是大家能夠真心聚在一起討論一下這個議題？"],["陳部長世凱：好、好。"],["魯委員明哲：看看能不能我們就接了，反正金馬也接了這個球，大概多久能夠召開這樣的會議？"],["周署長永暉：不過跟委員報告，像馬祖平均每日約400人，可是它現在平均每日不到100人，雖然是開放，但是量很少。"],["魯委員明哲：沒有，我是在講金門，你們那個船班自己好好去研究一下。最後我想做個結論，因為我們現在一直說有些網紅去大陸，配合他們做旅遊行銷、城市介紹等等，在臺灣掀起了軒然大波，我倒是沒辦法判定誰對誰錯，我沒有辦法判定，我只是想問，觀光署有沒有找大陸網紅來做臺灣景點的宣傳，不管是臺灣的美、臺灣的好？有沒有做這樣的事？"],["周署長永暉：有，我們還是有做，但就是……"],["魯委員明哲：這樣我們是不是也有統戰對岸的性質？"],["周署長永暉：不是這樣講……"],["魯委員明哲：不是統戰？"],["周署長永暉：總是要介紹臺灣美好的景點，然後也要把22個縣市推介出去，所以一些最基本的還是有做。"],["魯委員明哲：所以這個算不算統戰？我們算不算統戰他們？"],["周署長永暉：我們大概只就觀光談觀光，不會有……"],["魯委員明哲：那麼他們的網紅來這裡，回去會不會被法辦，因為拿了你政府的錢？一樣嘛！我們倒過來這樣講，因為這是現在進行式，公平講，他拿了我們中華民國政府的錢，回去會不會被法辦？這個你要注意一下。我看你們每一年都有，今年到底辦了沒有？就是邀請知名旅遊網紅合作計畫，約人民幣13萬，113年這個部分辦了沒有？"],["周署長永暉：那就是臺灣燈會，有時候會有特定的……"],["魯委員明哲：不是，不是，這個錢花了沒有？找了沒有？執行了沒有？"],["周署長永暉：我們有執行，還沒有執行完。"],["魯委員明哲：好，有執行了，有請廈門的揭姓跟張姓兩位網紅幫忙，有吧？"],["周署長永暉：有，這我提供給委員的，應該都……"],["魯委員明哲：請廈門陳姓旅遊達人來做深度介紹，這個做了沒有？都做了嘛！明年呢？明年一樣，你們也編了大概一百多萬，還是有請包括旅遊達人、媒體來，針對廈門、福建，也特別把名字寫上去了，就是你們要請哪一位網紅名字都寫了，但我覺得這不是很正常嗎？請他們來，把我們臺灣的……"],["周署長永暉：這個費用都很少……"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，你們是先以金門、馬祖促銷，所以它以廈門、福建為主，但我覺得觀光歸觀光，因為我們自己也是希望那邊比較有名的網紅……"],["陳部長世凱：有流量的網紅。"],["魯委員明哲：有流量的，能夠幫忙一下，這個部分我覺得當然要繼續做，而且我們有做，我覺得是正常啦！","最後問一下中華郵政，抱歉、抱歉！因為已經超過時間，不好意思。","以中華郵政本業來講，因為你剛到任，我也不是在怪你，但是我覺得中華郵政有時候要面對問題，歸零思考，我知道你們在儲蓄，甚至保險部分很努力，可是中華郵政其實有個本業，就是郵務業務，你們的稅後淨利，我們統計了這6年的數字，從2019年開始一路下滑，一路下滑，到今年2024年還沒過完，已經負14.1億，你們的本業到最後發生什麼事情？你有去研究嗎？"],["王董事長國材：跟委員報告，的確從去年到今年郵務面臨很大虧損，主要除了郵件以外，事實上，包裹跟快捷也下降，我從8月20號上任以後，已經針對這個部分積極改善，包括數位化介面建置，還有舊客戶跟新客戶的拜訪，都積極在進行，我想就是提高品質把客人找回來，這是他們最重要的任務。"],["魯委員明哲：不是，王董事長，真的要拜託你，你要有全面的觀念注入中華郵政，真的不要以不變應萬變，如果百年老店只剩下「百年」，跩什麼？對於新的挑戰，你有沒有辦法應變？就像你剛剛講的，國內包裹部分，這是17號剛出來的數據，國內包裹今年減少8.2%，國際包裹減少10.5%，自轉郵量減少9.3%，這個統計報告有各行各業，新竹物流等都有，每個都在買車、都在發大財，海運的快遞也是每一個都在增班，只有以不變應萬變的中華郵政，我跟你講，你們現在面對的對手是什麼樣？現在郵包大家習慣直接就下去7-11拿了，對不對？連蝦皮都有1,600個點，你們是不是真的都不變，就等人家來找你？面對這個挑戰，你們能不能想些新的點子？"],["王董事長國材：是。包括委員剛才談到的蝦皮店對店，我們現在的i郵箱也要轉成類似店對店的服務，我跟委員報告，最近這幾個月衰退已經開始減緩，我是期待明年7月，包括我們數位化服務民眾的部分做好以後，我給他們的目標，是明年7月開始止跌回升。我們現在是有很多比較新的作為，另外過去中華郵政比較消極的跟客戶關係部分，我們也都在加強中，我想就以這樣的目標來進行。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我拜託你，現在兩岸的網購、電郵部分，其實主要包裹大概80%到90%來自大陸，大都是民間業者，包括順豐快遞，可是你們這邊的業務卻不多，這部分你們是不是要重新思考？因為我知道你們整個業務好像只交給某一個承辦人，帶了30年、40年的觀念，拜託！重新思考，哪裡有生意去哪裡抓，這是我的建議，好不好？謝謝。"],["王董事長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委。依照召委原定時間，休息10分鐘。","休息（10時46分）","繼續開會（10時56分）"],["主席（魯委員明哲）：現在繼續開會。","有請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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10:31:37","影片長度":"00:11:51","會議時間":"2024-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長及桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長就「如何提升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光署及所屬單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─觀光發展基金分預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。\n【僅進行詢答；第二案至第四案委員預算提案於12月25日中午12時前截止收件】【12月18日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-18","start_time":"2024-12-18T10:19:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-18T10:31:37+08:00","duration":711,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":5.835968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.835968750000001,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.868468750000002,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.509718750000001,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.594718750000006,"end":39.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.77159375,"end":50.892218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.195968750000006,"end":51.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.44909375,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.49034375,"end":58.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.84034375,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.51534375000001,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":63.109718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.02909375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.30659375,"end":75.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.13721875,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.40284375,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.05221875000001,"end":86.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.64221875000001,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.39721875000001,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.75159375000001,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.33346875000001,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.17284375000001,"end":99.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.28971875,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.43284375,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.33971875,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.63034375000001,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.60721875000002,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.15096875,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.70784375000002,"end":151.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.39971875,"end":152.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.06596875,"end":164.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.03971875000002,"end":160.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.20846875,"end":160.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.59596875,"end":166.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.65034375000002,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.42221875,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.52846875,"end":218.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.19096875000002,"end":244.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.87034375000002,"end":251.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.97471875000002,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.09221875000003,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.79659375,"end":282.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.61971875,"end":321.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.22159375,"end":292.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.60409375,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.65159375,"end":346.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.32534375,"end":330.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.47971875,"end":342.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.39471875000004,"end":345.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.06534375,"end":347.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.50409375000004,"end":376.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.75471875000005,"end":363.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.89659375,"end":374.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.41096875000005,"end":382.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.92471875,"end":386.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.63721875000005,"end":399.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.97721875,"end":398.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.31471875000005,"end":398.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.81659375000004,"end":417.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.99096875000004,"end":423.86346875000004},{"speaker":"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Tourism Information Center那在那邊做這個駐地的這個宣傳大概我們平均來講那個效果會特別好等於是365天都在做宣傳服務的推廣"},{"start":218.907,"end":234.86,"text":"您有沒有去檢討一下你們拍的影片這個點閱率到底這個流量到底有多少?因為我們看到最近也有就是在網路上也有網友在丟一支影片這個是"},{"start":236.061,"end":248.249,"text":"一部台灣留學生自製的行銷台灣的影片結果網友他們評論說這個比官方製作的還吸引人然後他的我看他這個觀看的次數也達到182萬次所以我們做的會比這個還高嗎?有比這個還高嗎?"},{"start":258.516,"end":282.052,"text":"還有一些主題啦,宣傳影片還包括一些網紅,我們有網紅,譬如說我們曾經在日月潭拍那個影片的時候,那這個點閱率有500萬,那要一些故事的鋪陳,那我們通常來講是有好幾個層次,那委員特別提的黃小梅她確實也是一個很在地的網紅,那我們也有跟她做一些合作。"},{"start":284.133,"end":300.626,"text":"其實目前就是說很多網紅他們可能會有針對日常的美食的或者是旅遊景點的各種不同的這樣子特色的一個網紅我們也應該可以善用這些網紅的一個流量然後打造地方深度的觀光的商機"},{"start":301.647,"end":303.329,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、交通部長陳世凱、交通部長陳世凱、"},{"start":318.668,"end":343.691,"text":"蓋東樹也爆紅了就是被稱為李多惠樹也吸引很多人會去那邊打卡所以我覺得說這個網紅的這個宣傳的效果也是蠻有這個影響力的所以我覺得說其實這樣子的配合網紅的經費我想應該不會很高我覺得應該是就是說要多利用這樣子的一個流量來形象我們就是台灣的一些"},{"start":344.469,"end":363.172,"text":"警點及深度旅遊報告委員其實觀光署一直都有在做他們跟各國的網紅都有在做合作但我覺得委員今天的建議非常好我們是不是未來比例上我們比例上在地方的網紅也好各國的網紅幫我們推廣觀光的比例可以把它拉高一點"},{"start":363.752,"end":366.475,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":382.915,"end":382.955,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":399.902,"end":402.323,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":418.307,"end":443.455,"text":"檢探會成為就是這個商務課他選擇的一個重要的一個條件所以其實就我們在吸引外國的觀光客來台灣的時候也有不同的客群嘛是一般的觀光客或者是商務客等等我想應該這個都有不同的一個客群那就這個商務客來說因為如果說我們台灣的旅宿業的這個檢探"},{"start":444.835,"end":448.277,"text":"所以就這個政策來說請教部長您的看法、想法如何?"},{"start":467.345,"end":493.471,"text":"報告委員其實這個減碳相當重要那我們的旅輸業其實大家也都很努力我們在明年的時候應該一次性的這個備品大概就不會主動提供這個部分我們會來做那尤其是在觀光旅館的部分因為觀光署比較有辦法管轄是觀光旅館那會優先並且加強來做減少碳排那另外就是飲用水的部分最近環保環境部也有在提說這個塑膠瓶的這個"},{"start":494.951,"end":523.558,"text":"減速的政策那這個部分觀光署也會來配合來鼓勵我們的這個旅宿業者不要提供這個瓶裝式的礦泉水那這個部分也是會由這個觀光的旅館先來推廣是好那就是說我們已經有逐漸朝向就是說希望來禁止提供這個一次性的備品那我想這個應該也就是要有一個一個宣導然後一個階段性的一個實施那未來就是說在整個旅宿業的"},{"start":524.338,"end":530.611,"text":"就是網站上有關這個檢探的一個資訊的一個揭露。我不曉得目前做得如何。"},{"start":531.557,"end":554.469,"text":"報告委員其實在明年我們就是政策上面其實就強制性全面不提供啦,全面不提供。那所以這個部分其實就會照這樣的政策推廣下去。那我想一般的旅客其實大家也會去適應,也會開始適應。就自己帶,或者是變成說你必須要去跟旅宿業者要,或者是要買才會有。"},{"start":555.549,"end":584.827,"text":"我們有一個政策就是說我們最高可以補助10萬元希望能夠更新做綠色旅宿有補助了那另外就是說其實消費者他們也更關心的就是說如果不提供一次性的備品的話那在這個房價上是不是要降價才對不然的話就是說其實目前國民的就是我們國內的民眾啊他們的感受就是說我們的這個旅館的費用太高了"},{"start":585.587,"end":595.645,"text":"如果住了那麼貴的飯店,然後沒有一次性的備品,那在這個價格上如果沒有給予優惠的話,他們會可能寧可去國外旅遊了。"},{"start":596.452,"end":596.872,"text":"最近有一個就是"},{"start":621.967,"end":637.757,"text":"一個網友他在臉書上有分享就是說他的朋友去入住我們台北的這個希爾頓飯店的時候結果一打開這個電視啊連八台都是中國的這個頻道我想請問一下這個是合法的嗎"},{"start":639.328,"end":660.516,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們有加強宣導那民眾所說的這間飯店他那個八個頻道也都已經下架了都下架了都已經下架了是那我們應該就是說要求我們交通部還有觀光署這邊對於旅宿業者就是有關這個電視頻道的這個節目的提供應該要有就是"},{"start":661.476,"end":664.502,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":671.906,"end":694.169,"text":"我們也會通令給地方政府大家一起來宣導那也一起來管制說這個沒有得到台灣的主管單位允許的頻道不應該讓他上架是啊因為來到台灣然後結果打開電視看的是中國的節目那這樣子會讓外國旅客可能會混淆了到底到了哪個國家了我們是民主自由的台灣"},{"start":695.03,"end":697.013,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時19分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長還有周署長。"],["主席：陳部長、周署長。"],["陳委員素月：部長還有署長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：今天針對觀光署還有觀光發展基金進行預算的詢答，本席在這邊先請教，我們觀光署掛牌剛好滿一年了。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員素月：我有看到最近署長在掛牌滿1年的相關慶祝活動上中提到，明年起每年會增加10億元的國際宣傳費，這個是正確的嗎？署長。"],["周署長永暉：我們4年內會增加10億，所以每年平均是2.5億。"],["陳委員素月：所以與媒體報導的有點誤差。"],["周署長永暉：對，明年起4年內增加10億。"],["陳委員素月：我看媒體寫的是「每年增加10億」。"],["陳部長世凱：應該是媒體的新聞報導有一點……"],["周署長永暉：對，它內容是有寫「未來4年」內。"],["陳部長世凱：但是最後一段寫錯了。"],["陳委員素月：好，因為我覺得每年增加10億，這個很可觀耶！不曉得你們要怎麼做？"],["陳部長世凱：也沒那麼多預算。"],["陳委員素月：所以我也特別去盤點了一下，過去這幾年……"],["周署長永暉：這有包括駐外的點。"],["陳委員素月：我盤點了一下這幾年來有關觀光署在行銷推展費裡面的費用，包括國際行銷的宣傳費，111年是12.92億，占了51.89%，112年、113年、114年就像表列的這樣，明（114）年度編了17.94億，就如同剛剛署長所說的，大概增加了2.5億的經費。我們看到，其實這樣的宣傳經費是滿龐大的，所以我覺得我們也要去定期檢討，花了這麼多宣傳費到底效果好不好、有沒有花在刀口上，我覺得這個都要好好地做一個檢討跟盤點。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["陳委員素月：觀光署都會拍影片做廣告，不曉得歷年來所拍的影片，署長覺得有沒有最成功的？"],["周署長永暉：我們目前主題式宣傳的影片是最好的，譬如有些是喜歡生態旅遊的，或是溯溪的，這種是主題式的，就等於是分眾。也跟委員報告一下，這次我們3.0版的臺灣品牌，我們接著有春、夏、秋、冬四季，它必須是一波、一波的。剛剛宣傳的費用裡面也包括我們駐地……譬如說明天會在菲律賓的馬尼拉設置TTIC（Taiwan Tourism Information Center），在那邊做駐地的宣傳，平均來講效果會特別好，等於是365天都在做宣傳服務的推廣。"],["陳委員素月：你有沒有去檢討一下你們所拍影片的點閱率、流量到底有多少？因為我們看到最近在網路上也有網友在丟一支影片，這個是一個臺灣留學生自製行銷臺灣的影片。結果網友評論後覺得這個比官方製作得還吸引人，我看它的觀看次數也達到182萬次，所以我們做的會比這個還高嗎？有比這個還高嗎？"],["周署長永暉：還有一些主題，宣傳影片還包括一些網紅，我們有網紅，譬如說我們曾經在日月潭拍影片的時候，其點閱率有500萬，是用一些故事的舖陳。我們通常來講有好幾個層次，委員特別提到的黃小玫，他確實也是一個很在地的網紅，我們跟他也有一些合作。"],["陳委員素月：目前很多網紅可能會針對日常的、美食的，或是旅遊景點等有各種不同特色的網紅，我們也應該可以善用這些網紅的流量，打造地方深度的觀光商機。"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["陳委員素月：因為我們看最近在永靖鄉，地方上就有企業邀請李多慧來行銷我們地方，也讓我們地方上的一棵樹齡百年的茄苳樹爆紅，也被稱為「李多慧樹」，吸引了很多人去那邊打卡，所以我覺得網紅的宣傳效果也是滿有影響力的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：這種配合網紅的經費我想應該不會很高，我覺得應該要多利用這樣的流量來行銷我們臺灣的景點跟深度的旅遊。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。報告委員，觀光署一直都有在做，他們跟各國的網紅都有合作，但我覺得委員今天的建議非常好，我們未來是不是在比例上，不管是地方的網紅也好還是各國的網紅，幫我們推廣觀光的比例可以拉高一點。"],["陳委員素月：是。"],["陳部長世凱：因為現在大家收視的習慣已經跟過去不一樣，不太看電視都在看手機，大部分的視覺都是往網紅的流量下去看，所以我們宣傳的比例也會做調整。"],["陳委員素月：另外，本席要跟部長和署長討論的是，至少我們一直花宣傳費做行銷，我們觀光整體的政策面，或者是整體的觀光景點硬體的改善，我覺得也是相對重要。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：目前整個國際跟未來的趨勢就是減碳，減碳這個議題也是非常重要。曾經有業者講過，未來減碳會成為商務客選擇的一個重要條件，所以我們在吸引外國觀光客來臺灣的時候，也有不同的客群，像是一般的觀光客或者是商務客等等，我想這些都有不同的客群。","就商務客來說，如果我們臺灣旅宿業的減碳，在沒有一個公告……就是在網站上沒有辦法提供碳資訊的話，可能會造成國外旅客來臺灣的時候，對他們的選擇有影響，他們可能會選擇比較低碳的城市，可能是新加坡、曼谷等等，所以就這個政策來說，請教部長，您的看法、想法是如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實這個減碳相當重要，我們旅宿業的大家也都很努力，我們明年的時候一次性的備品大概就不會主動提供了，這個部分我們會來做。尤其是在觀光旅館的部分，因為觀光署比較有辦法管轄的是觀光旅館，這個會優先並且加強來做以減少碳排。","另外就是飲用水的部分，最近環境部也有在提，塑膠瓶的減塑政策，這個部分觀光署也會來配合，鼓勵旅宿業者不要提供瓶裝式的礦泉水，這個部分也會由觀光的旅館先來推廣。"],["陳委員素月：我們已經逐漸朝向希望禁止提供一次性的備品，我想這個也應該要有宣導、階段性的實施，未來在整個旅宿業的網站上，有關減碳資訊的揭露，我不曉得目前做得如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實明年我們在政策上面，就是強制性全面不提供，這個部分就是會照這樣的政策推廣下去。我想一般的旅客，其實大家也會去適應、也會開始適應，就是自己帶，或者變成是你必須去跟旅宿業者要，或者是要買才會有。"],["周署長永暉：我們有一個政策，我們最高可以補助10萬元，希望能夠更新做綠色旅宿。"],["陳委員素月：有補助啊？"],["周署長永暉：對，從明年度開始。"],["陳委員素月：另外就是說，其實消費者更關心的是，如果不提供一次性備品的話，在房價上是不是要降價才對，不然的話，目前國內的民眾的感受就是，旅館的費用太高了，住了那麼貴的飯店，沒有一次性的備品，在價格上如果沒有給予優惠的話，他們可能寧可去國外旅遊。"],["周署長永暉：我們會加大宣傳，因為現在到國外旅遊也都要自備了。尤其是歐洲為了減碳排，連搭飛機都限制，250公里以內都不能搭飛機，這個等於是國際的趨勢。"],["陳委員素月：好。最後一個問題，最近有一個網友在臉書上分享，他的朋友入住臺北的希爾頓飯店時，一打開電視，結果連8台都是中國的頻道，我想請問一下，這個是合法的嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們有加強宣導，民眾所說的這間飯店，他們那8個頻道也都已經下架了。"],["陳委員素月：都下架了？"],["陳部長世凱：都已經下架了。"],["陳委員素月：我們要求交通部還有觀光署，對於旅宿業者，有關電視頻道節目的提供，應該要有強制的要求吧！不能等網友爆料這間飯店有這樣子的行為，你們才去處理這間飯店，那其他的飯店呢？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們也會通令給地方政府，大家一起來宣導，也一起來管制，沒有得到臺灣主管單位允許的頻道，不應該讓它上架。"],["陳委員素月：是啊！因為來到臺灣，打開電視，結果看到的是中國的節目，這樣子讓外國旅客可能會混淆到底到了哪個國家，我們是民主自由的臺灣，跟極權專制的中國是不一樣的國家，所以我們希望在這個部分，交通部及觀光署應該要嚴格地去執行，禁止飯店做這樣子的行為。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們也會積極跟地方政府來溝通及配合。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員國成代）：謝謝陳素月召委。現在請魯明哲召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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會？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前以我們的理解，上海方面的副市長有這麼說了。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["陳部長世凱：他們的文旅部還沒有做最後的決定。"],["廖委員先翔：好，如果決定了，我們會不會有回應？"],["陳部長世凱：他決定了，我們就會來討論。"],["廖委員先翔：會討論。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會討論。"],["廖委員先翔：會不會適度的放寬？我不會要求你全面開放，這個政策有節奏性，畢竟他們也沒有全面開放，我非常了解，你也不用跟我提，而是我們有沒有辦法節奏性的也部分的去開放，所以部長會承諾只要上海……"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們來討論。"],["廖委員先翔：現在副市長宣布了、他們文旅部也宣布了，甚至確實有來臺了、確實旅客來團成行了……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：交通部會承諾，我們後續會檢討政策是不是要做適度的調整？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，我們都在滾動檢討，這個一定會來做。"],["廖委員先翔：一定會做檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：對、對。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那就拜託部長，您說的話要做到，我沒有叫你全面開放，但是什麼樣子的善意回應，是讓你認為沒有喪失兩岸對等的交流前提下，我們來做一個回應。我跟部長確認，觀光的政策開放要不要解除禁團令，是您可以決定的嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不是單就交通部的立場就可以決定，並不是。"],["廖委員先翔：並不是嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：並不是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那您的立場會是……針對禁團令的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會比較傾向歡迎。"],["廖委員先翔：歡迎……不是，禁團令是我們過去的禁團令。"],["陳部長世凱：我們過去的禁團令？"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["陳部長世凱：我們過去的禁團令，其實如果中國可以整個開放的話，我覺得我們就有那個條件，而且要能夠確保我們旅客的安全狀況底下，我們就會有那個條件可以開放。"],["廖委員先翔：所以您就是說……當然要不要逐步釋出善意，剛剛部長有給承諾會討論，但是要不要全面開放，就是全面解除禁團令的前提，也是大陸方面有沒有全面解除他們來臺旅客的限制，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：他們如果可以解除，對我們來講就是一個很好的善意，這個部分其實就有對等；第二，對我們來講，我們的旅客到中國去，要確保他們的安全，因為我們到目前為止，確實有看到一些團客過去中國的時候，有被留下來盤查、滯留的狀況，也是有發生的，我們很擔心我們的團客開放之後，過去的安全能不能確保？如果能確保，當然我們可以朝正向的……"],["廖委員先翔：好，部長，我知道政黨會有政黨的堅持、執政黨當然會有執政黨的堅持。"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得是安全，跟政黨無關。"],["廖委員先翔：部長，你們有沒有統計過，因為今年大陸沒有開放旅客來臺灣，我們兩岸的觀光逆差達到多少？過去可能雙方互等全面開放的時候，我們的觀光順逆差是多少？可能今年截至目前為止，我們的觀光順逆差這個數字，你現在有辦法回應嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個產值的部分沒有估算，目前沒有估算。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["陳部長世凱：但是人數大概估算得出來。"],["廖委員先翔：一部分我知道，你們是希望對等的交流、全面開放，這一直是你們的論述，但是我們是中華民國的官員，我們應該要優先考慮臺灣觀光旅客的生計，對岸已經釋出善意了、人願意來了，我不知道他為什麼會挑上海，我在想有一個原因，可能是上海的常住人口跟臺灣的常住人口差不多，所以可能是他選擇上海的一個原因，我猜的啦！他認為人口一樣，你要不要做出善意的回應嘛！但是對岸的旅客沒有來臺灣的時候，受損最大的是臺灣的觀光業者，不管是剛剛旅宿業者還是……"],["陳部長世凱：所以我們一直……"],["廖委員先翔：我們的觀光業者。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一直在爭取對岸可以開放他們的禁令。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["陳部長世凱：希望開放他們進來……"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們除了嘴巴講，也必須要給他們一個適度的、善意的回應，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["廖委員先翔：這個就拜託部長，針對剛剛也有委員提到對日的觀光逆差，我們大概一年的觀光逆差會到多少？可能以今年來說。"],["周署長永暉：目前來講，我們去的比例確實是比較高，會突破出境的，那入境的目前預估大概140萬。"],["廖委員先翔：那產值的部分呢？"],["周署長永暉：產值的話要算，現在目前來講，因為在日本幣值的關係，所以在那邊消費是比較方便，所以我們要在最後再做統計。"],["廖委員先翔：我希望現在日本跟我們這邊，兩邊的觀光旅客是沒有任何的限制，既然我們那麼多的旅客去了日本，那我們也會期待，不管是透過我們的官方或日本的官方，我們也非常歡迎日本的旅客來臺灣。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：達到一個互相交流，很多人都說臺日友好，大家非常期待臺日友好，那我希望觀光署在未來臺日觀光交流部分，而不只有單方面我們的旅客一直過去，他們那邊來的人數非常的少，好不好？最後問部長一個問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：在大陸禁止他們的人民來到臺灣的這段期間，有沒有任何旅團的申請觀光簽證，跟我們臺灣方面來申請，有沒有任何的觀光簽證申請？"],["周署長永暉：有專案的部分，我們是有，但是都是專案。"],["廖委員先翔：觀光？"],["周署長永暉：他的目的事業主管機關若是我們觀光的相關業者，當然是觀光署來核。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["周署長永暉：他們都有……"],["廖委員先翔：那所有送的你們都有核嗎？還是有部分沒核……"],["周署長永暉：只要觀光署都有核。"],["廖委員先翔：只要是觀光的目的，他們過來我們臺灣的……"],["周署長永暉：那有些……"],["廖委員先翔：需要簽證的？"],["周署長永暉：有些參訪的話。"],["廖委員先翔：我們都會核？"],["周署長永暉：我們觀光的部分都會核。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝，那就麻煩部長，剛剛一開始您講的善意的堆疊。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：是比惡意的螺旋提升會更好，那我希望不只嘴巴講，而是實際的作為，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員。作一下宣告：待會發言到我本人，魯明哲委員發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘。","接下來請陳素月召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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?沒有沒有,我稍微報告一下委員所關心的應該分兩個一個叫我們叫境內一個叫境外那這境外的部分比如說Airbnb境內境內你說的是網站是什麼樣的網站然後那個境內的部分我們都是都直接查處了那那個22個縣市政府他們都有表達說他預算有限啊什麼人力有限我們也也"},{"start":363.217,"end":363.417,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":385.783,"end":404.517,"text":"你如果要到他的網站上,去看的房,你要有license,你要有營業登記才可以上。所以這些網站啊,不可以為了賺錢啊,來者不分青紅皂白啊,一點管理也沒有。難道觀光署有沒有什麼做法啊?"},{"start":414.396,"end":436.682,"text":"針對境外的部分,我們是跟速發部有保持聯繫了。聯繫了好幾年,還是在聯繫?聯繫中?沒有沒有沒有,有幾個具體的做法。什麼做法?對對,但是最重要的還是境內啦。境外的部分,那個速發部他們也覺得有些在法令上還在談。網站上的刊登廣告,地方政府沒有辦法啦。"},{"start":437.082,"end":459.995,"text":"但地方政府他會去,我就用台,還有一些是真的是消費者啦,要特別注意,我都有license上去,我用市政府查獲的,台北市政府查獲的非法的旅宿業者名單,去各大網站搜尋都找得到,他還是廣告還是在上面,那你叫消費者分辨,怎麼去分辨?"},{"start":462.612,"end":472.21,"text":"消費者通常都在網站上訂嘛你如果來源管理你非法的業者不應該在上面可以營業嘛這最簡單的嘛"},{"start":475.236,"end":476.736,"text":"我幫你查一下你的流量好不好?"},{"start":508.823,"end":521.308,"text":"你應該這個問題要解決吧你平台要下架非法旅宿啦好不好上架以前其實這些網路平台就應該審核你是不是有旅宿月的登記證號嘛"},{"start":525.866,"end":541.558,"text":"當時交通部就表示要求要三個月內下架,其實這個下架只要一秒鐘就可以了,那時候都是交通部的承諾,然後要求境外的訂房網站,"},{"start":543.139,"end":564.177,"text":"在台灣要設立公司要落地才可以開啟業務來符合消費者權利為了教育糾紛的一個保障全部也沒做啊我跟你講這些所謂的非法的旅宿啦尤其這網路上面有一些齁都是黃賭賭啦所以詐騙機房啦以前都查獲過啦這是一個治安的死角啦"},{"start":566.558,"end":571.371,"text":"請將觀光署處理下這個問題好不好。是,是,就持續在,在。好,謝謝區長喔。好,謝謝部長喔。好,謝謝署長。謝謝委員。好,謝謝主席。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時）謝謝主席。本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["林委員俊憲：觀光署周署長。"],["主席：周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。部長，現在在雙城論壇，上海副市長到臺灣來，他在雙城論壇上宣布要推動上海陸客團來臺灣，所以到底是誰禁止來，很清楚啦！他自己承認他禁止，所以他才要推動開放。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯！"],["林委員俊憲：對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：其實是中國那邊禁止。"],["林委員俊憲：如果中國沒有禁止，上海副市長為什麼說他要推動開放陸客團來臺灣？我再請教部長，中國有禁止陸客團來臺灣嘛，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：中國有禁止？有啊！"],["林委員俊憲：就是他們團客不能過來嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，他們團客不能過來，沒有錯！"],["林委員俊憲：假設他們有自由行的人，中國政府允許他們來臺灣嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，他們自由行的部分，除了專案之外，也是不允許的，所以現在是團客跟自由行都不允許他們的國民來到臺灣。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這個你要講清楚啊！中國政府不允許他們的團客和自由行的到臺灣來旅遊，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有錯嘛！那臺灣的態度是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：我們其實對於觀光客，我們都是歡迎啦！如果是有序的觀光，我們都是非常的歡迎。"],["林委員俊憲：臺灣其實跟日本也是觀光逆差，臺灣人喜歡到日本去嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：但至少兩邊都是互相開放嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["林委員俊憲：這個很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：日本並沒有禁止他們的國民，無論是參加旅遊團或者是自由行來到臺灣，他們是相當開放的。"],["林委員俊憲：日本也沒有禁止日本人到臺灣來觀光。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有、沒有，完全沒有！"],["林委員俊憲：其實任何國家開放觀光都應該這樣子啦！都應該互相開放嘛！為什麼現在國內很多包括旅遊公會、旅遊業者，都誤解是我們禁止陸客來？你知不知道？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，他們……"],["林委員俊憲：有很多人來找我們陳情，我就跟他們講、你搞錯對象了吧！這個應該是去呼籲北京要開放，你應該要請中國政府開放，讓他們的團客、甚至自由行的客人可以到臺灣來，而不是來要求我們要開放嘛！是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：是。報告委員，我也一直在拜託我們的觀光業者，或者是相關的公協會，可以跟著我們一起來呼籲中國方面，可以解除對於觀光上面政治的干擾，跟政治上面的限制。"],["林委員俊憲：再比較一下，今年陸客來臺現在大概是32萬人，臺灣到中國旅遊的現在大概有230萬，所以是哪一邊限制，這個很清楚嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：現在去的非常多，來的非常少。"],["林委員俊憲：中國十幾億人，怎麼可能只有三十幾萬人來臺灣？他們幾乎都禁止了，所以現在是禁止，不管怎麼樣，現在兩邊有沒有在談？兩邊有沒有在談開放？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分其實不需要談，開放就是開放。"],["林委員俊憲：開放就開放。"],["陳部長世凱：像我們現在自由行的旅客可以過去，我們也不需要跟他們談，我們自己就是開放。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有錯嘛！但是他們開放會有一些徵兆，比如說要有踩線團來，跟著我們本地的旅行業者要有合作等等的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：只是我希望交通部應該要講清楚，也要讓本國的旅遊業者清楚知道，到底是誰在阻礙兩岸的觀光旅遊？不要都認為好像是民進黨在阻擋。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：再請教一下，我記得幾年前我有要求交通部要注意一下，現在很多人出國旅遊都會訂房，對不對？都會透過網站去訂房，但在網路上訂房的旅館或者民宿，其實政府是沒有辦法、消費者也沒有辦法去分辨所訂的民宿或者旅館是不是合法，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：民眾大概不知道，但政府都會知道。"],["林委員俊憲：會知道嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：政府都會知道。"],["林委員俊憲：既然知道，為什麼還讓非法的在網上可以開放訂？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實這個是地方政府要去查核，但我們有跟他們配合，今年到目前為止，查了裁罰一千三百多件，罰了一億多。"],["林委員俊憲：我講的是在網站上面。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：在網站上面，我最早提出質詢是5年前，我說因為非法的旅宿業者，第一個，消費者權益也沒有保障，萬一發生消費糾紛怎麼辦？當時交通部說會道德勸說，這些訂房的網站不要刊登這些非法的旅宿業者。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：交通部當時說他們會去想辦法解決這個問題。四、五年了，到現在，請問還是一樣道德勸說嗎？"],["周署長永暉：沒有、沒有。"],["林委員俊憲：來，周署長。"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告一下，委員所關心的應該分兩個，一個我們叫境內，一個叫境外。境外的部分譬如說Airbnb……"],["林委員俊憲：境內的。喔，你說的是什麼樣的網站？"],["周署長永暉：對。至於境內的部分，我們都直接查處了，因為22個縣市政府他們都有表達因為預算有限、人力有限，我們也……"],["林委員俊憲：對於Airbnb，你們沒有辦法管它？"],["周署長永暉：因為裡面有合法的，我們也跟它談了，就是涉及到安全的部分，他們也願意下架。"],["林委員俊憲：我現在給你看幾個網站，這些都不是……"],["周署長永暉：我們也拜託數發部……"],["林委員俊憲：這是本地的網站，也不是Airbnb的網站，它上面一樣有非法的旅宿在啊！其實你應該要要求……"],["周署長永暉：基本上……"],["林委員俊憲：如果要到它的網站上去刊登廣告……"],["周署長永暉：我們都有license……"],["林委員俊憲：對，要有license。"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：要有營業登記才可以上……"],["陳部長世凱：要有旅宿證號才可以。"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這些網站不可以為了賺錢，不分青紅皂白，一點管理也沒有！觀光署有沒有什麼作法？"],["周署長永暉：針對境外的部分，我們是跟數發部有保持聯繫。"],["林委員俊憲：聯繫好幾年了，還是在聯繫中？"],["周署長永暉：沒有、沒有，有幾個具體的作法。"],["林委員俊憲：什麼作法？"],["周署長永暉：但是最重要的還是境內，至於境外的部分，因為數發部也覺得有些在法令上還在談。"],["林委員俊憲：在網站上刊登廣告，地方政府沒有辦法，但地方政府……"],["周署長永暉：還有一些真的是消費者要特別注意，我們都有license上去。"],["林委員俊憲：我用臺北市政府查獲的非法旅宿業者名單去各大網站搜尋，都找得到，廣告還是在上面，你叫消費者分辨，怎麼去分辨？消費者通常都在網站上訂，如果來源有管理，非法業者不應該在上面可以營業，這就是最簡單的嘛！應該是一個網站……"],["周署長永暉：所以我們才有一個……"],["林委員俊憲：網站有自律，還有他律嘛！我們要要求它自己管理，對不對？"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有營照的不可以幫它登廣告。第二個，他律就是我們要去管理它嘛！"],["周署長永暉：是。所以我們也開闢了一個叫做旅宿網，希望大家要訂的時候直接上觀光署的旅宿網，其實是百分之一百……"],["林委員俊憲：你那個旅宿網也沒有人在上面。"],["周署長永暉：有啦！還有一些評價的推薦。"],["林委員俊憲：我幫你查一下你的流量好不好？這個問題應該要解決吧？"],["周署長永暉：這個是多管齊下。"],["林委員俊憲：平臺要下架非法旅宿啦，好不好？上架以前，其實這些網路平臺就應該審核是不是有旅宿業的登記證號，是不是這樣？當時觀光署，2018年還不是周署長，但是當時交通部就有表示要求3個月內要下架，其實下架只要1秒鐘就可以了，那時候都是交通部的承諾啦！然後要求境外的訂房網站在臺灣要設立公司，要落地才可以開啟業務，以符合消費者權益或者交易糾紛的保障，結果全部也沒做啊！我跟你講，這些所謂的非法旅宿，尤其在網路上面有一些都是黃、賭、毒啦！就是詐騙機房啦！以前都查獲過，這是一個治安的死角，請觀光署處理一下這個問題好不好？"],["周署長永暉：是，就持續在……"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來有請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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的話觀光就不會蓬勃發展嘛,這種東西很簡單。"},{"start":137.759,"end":156.592,"text":"政策我們尊重但是適可而止的禁止來達到對等我贊成我贊成不要我也反對啊我到任何一個地方我都反對對岸一大七小的政策這個我到哪邊我都反對啊"},{"start":157.452,"end":177.108,"text":"我跟你講我們是小兒美國家我們要談對等我同意但是不要動不動就說我們南白好像這個進團是我們南白所定的不能這樣這對我們所有的立法委員都不公平我們立法委員是政策制定由政府來做"},{"start":177.668,"end":191.648,"text":"那我們把基層聲音反映你們來做這個政策所以不要什麼東西又推給我們這個我很不服氣我很不服氣好那個部長我一向你也知道啦"},{"start":193.083,"end":213.986,"text":"我對你交通部跟觀光政策我是基本上是支持的但是我還是要建議觀光要有多元化到現在我們觀光的政策完完全全都是停頓自然而生存那種心態是不對的"},{"start":215.496,"end":237.753,"text":"觀光的東西當然要跟交通連結這一點我是很同意因為我認為不管任何人執政觀光跟交通是要連結的所以我還是真的蠻希望但是有一點觀光的安全也是很重要安全也是很重要所以在這裡我要特別這個圖片"},{"start":240.739,"end":252.057,"text":"這個看一下來署長你看一下這個部長也剛來不久請問一下這個在阿里山這件事情報紙刊登之後"},{"start":253.157,"end":268.186,"text":"你們才開始處理我請問一下你們現在處理的怎麼可以把所有的觀光客帶在這個鐵路裡面在那邊玩耍在那邊做這些動作我請問部長請問署長你們現在"},{"start":271.788,"end":275.01,"text":"觀光署如何處理這個旅行社?如何處理?"},{"start":288.819,"end":312.179,"text":"這件事情有兩個層面一個是鐵路法所以剛剛也跟林業署的華信署長也交換過意見他們就用鐵路法直接開法第二個是我們因為是帶團所以旅行社的部分我們就最重是五萬那麼帶團人員最重是一萬五所以我們人跟旅行社業者都開法是"},{"start":312.899,"end":319.222,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":337.971,"end":362.679,"text":"這個我們把問題民意代表就把問題點出來如何上後如何解決當然要你們主管機關去做我覺得這個是萬萬不可取得己動怎麼可以把所有旅客帶到那個危險的地方更何況是違規的地方這個是不對的因為導遊掌握到整個這些安全跟舒適"},{"start":364.019,"end":370.96,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":393.044,"end":407.626,"text":"包括上次署長都是什麼老思想從來沒有改變從來沒有替百姓從來沒有替觀光政策去做過很多努力這點我特別跟部長投訴一下"},{"start":408.857,"end":428.204,"text":"另外一個大家都知道阿里山真的是世界文明的地方當然因為觀光的問題主管單位很多但是不管怎麼樣觀光署一定要去做到這些所以安全也很重要來"},{"start":429.784,"end":452.291,"text":"阿里山這裡面也就是阿里山的三美村的建到段列到現在修了沒有?報告委員這個是鄉管的啦那個鄉那是什麼鄉公所鄉公所要督促啦對我們也跟那個就像委員提示的就是我們跟那個文化觀光局也"},{"start":453.231,"end":456.172,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":472.978,"end":493.626,"text":"就一定是有危急的所以這個部分因為我們觀光署本來不是就只要做觀光的發展嗎那安全第一個沒有辦法安全請問未來如何發展所以這點部長我還是拜託你要督促觀光署一下尤其"},{"start":494.346,"end":516.907,"text":"我常跟私底下去做考察的時候我都跟他們建議我說我們要多元化建議嘛有時候這麼好的場地你可以辦辦年輕人的活動啊可以帆船的帆船啊可以賽車的賽車啊欸這種人這個觀光的政策只要一制定你說要不要去編列預算不一定喔"},{"start":518.24,"end":518.36,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":540.94,"end":565.633,"text":"為老百姓做事情真的要動一點頭腦要動一點頭腦所以這個部分我還是要拜託那最後剛才我們同仁在提的也就是博物館這個事這個要列入觀光的一種啦不要禮拜六禮拜天人家是在休閒人家要去看結果你不讓人家看這點我還要拜託我們王董事長我說實在的"},{"start":565.973,"end":568.515,"text":"我還是建議我蠻贊同就是禮拜六禮拜天真的不要說不開館這一點我還是要建議一下好不好部長所以這個我要拜託你"},{"start":590.231,"end":601.556,"text":"要談觀光。第一個,你們政策的制定,要把它制定好。第二個,要有多元化跟安全的管理,這很重要的啦。好不好,保留。好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":208,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時50分）謝謝主席。請陳部長、周署長。"],["主席：陳部長、周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員國成：好，部長、署長，剛才我們許智傑、我們未來的市長說你們都很認真，我認為你們一點都不認真，不但不認真，還在議事殿堂說謊話，請問一下現在大陸對等的問題，你們禁團令解了沒有？沒有啊！跟我們藍白委員有什麼關係？這種禁團令是你們交通部、是你們政府禁止人家不來，結果我說實在話……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們沒有禁止他們不來。"],["林委員國成：我跟你講，我們禁團令就沒有解嘛！藍白委員為了觀光，我也幾次跟部長、跟署長建議，觀光不能有政治，你管他幹什麼？你來消費，我就歡迎，所以這個部分……"],["陳部長世凱：我們其實一直都很歡迎。"],["林委員國成：所以問題是禁團令你都沒有……所以我跟你講……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，禁團令不是禁止他們不來。"],["林委員國成：坦白講，今天談到藍白，這跟藍白有什麼關係？這個政策是你們在制定，我們只是建議儘快，這種觀光本來就是對等，那我問你，你說「對等」兩個字，請問一下日本來臺灣多少人？我們去日本多少人？那也不對等嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：但是報告委員，日本沒有限制他們的國民來臺灣旅遊。"],["林委員國成：是，為什麼我們禁團令不能解呢？"],["陳部長世凱：中國目前有禁止他們的民眾來臺灣旅遊。"],["林委員國成：人家說上海要來觀光……"],["陳部長世凱：歡迎、歡迎！"],["林委員國成：請問一下這有什麼不好呢？"],["陳部長世凱：歡迎！我就說歡迎。"],["林委員國成：所以不要什麼東西都是藍白，如果是這樣的話，觀光就不會蓬勃發展嘛！這種東西很簡單，政策我們尊重，但是適可而止的禁止來達到對等，我贊成！我贊成！不過，我也反對啊！我到任何一個地方，我都反對對岸以大欺小的政策，這個到哪邊我都反對啊！我跟你講，我們是小而美的國家，我們要談對等，我同意，但是不要動不動就是我們藍白，好像這個禁團令是我們藍白所訂的，不能這樣！這對我們所有的立法委員都不公平，我們立法委員是政策制訂，由政府來做，我們反映基層的聲音，你們來做這個政策，所以不要什麼東西又推給我們，這個我很不服氣！我很不服氣！"],["陳部長世凱：是、是、是。"],["林委員國成：部長，你也知道啦，我一向對交通部跟觀光政策，我基本上是支持的。"],["陳部長世凱：感謝委員。"],["林委員國成：但是我還是要建議觀光要多元化，到現在我們的觀光政策完完全全都是停頓，自然而生存，那種心態是不對的，觀光當然要跟交通連結，這一點我是很同意，因為我認為不管任何人執政，觀光跟交通是要連結的，所以我還是真的蠻希望，但是有一點，觀光的安全也是很重要，安全也是很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯，是。"],["林委員國成：所以在這裡我要特別……這個圖片看一下，署長，你看一下，部長也剛來不久……"],["陳部長世凱：這個在阿里山。"],["林委員國成：請問一下阿里山這件事情，報紙刊登之後，你們才開始處理，請問你們現在處理的，怎麼可以把所有的觀光客帶到鐵路上面，在那邊玩耍、在那邊做這些動作，請問部長、請問署長，現在觀光署如何處理這個旅行社？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，他沒有注意到旅客的安全，這個對旅行社一定會開罰，除了旅行社之外，對於帶團的現場人員也應該要開罰，這個部分我是不是請署長來回答？"],["林委員國成：好，署長。"],["周署長永暉：跟委員報告。這件事情有兩個層面，一個是鐵路法，所以剛剛也跟林業署的華慶署長也交換過意見，他們就用鐵路法直接開罰。第二個，因為是帶團，所以旅行社的部分，我們最重是5萬元，那帶團人員最重是1萬5,000，所以我們針對人跟旅行社業者都開罰。"],["林委員國成：這個真的要……"],["周署長永暉：我們也會強化宣導，因為他已經進入……"],["林委員國成：這個真正在宣導上，署長，這個才是要宣導。"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["林委員國成：旅行社的所有導遊都是在你們管轄之內，你們應該是要講習的時候，這個就要講得很清楚，不是嗎？"],["周署長永暉：有。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，要注意旅客的安全。"],["周署長永暉：我們除了每年3月的旅遊安全週以外，我們也會持續……"],["林委員國成：真的啦！署長，沒有關係啦！沒有關係啦！我是覺得我們民意代表就把問題點出來，如何善後、如何解決當然要你們主管機關去做，我覺得這個是萬萬不可取的舉動，怎麼可以把所有旅客帶到那個危險的地方？更何況是違規的地方，這個是不對的，因為導遊掌握整個安全跟舒適等問題，所以安全面臨挑戰，哪裡來的舒適？所以部長，你要督促一下……"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["林委員國成：因為我認為觀光署他們只坐在辦公室吹冷氣。"],["周署長永暉：不會、不會。"],["林委員國成：根本沒有去注意這些事情。"],["周署長永暉：不會。"],["林委員國成：這個我特別跟部長你投訴一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我會特別注意。"],["林委員國成：因為從最近我開始跟觀光署接觸，包括小至分署，包括上至署長，都是什麼？老思想，從來沒有改變、從來沒有替百姓、從來沒有替觀光政策做很多努力，這點我特別跟部長投訴一下。","另外，大家都知道阿里山真的是世界聞名的地方，當然因為觀光的問題，主管單位很多，但是不管怎麼樣，觀光署一定要去做到這些，所以安全也很重要。阿里山山美村的棧道斷裂，到現在修了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是鄉管的啦！鄉公所管轄。"],["林委員國成：要督促啊！"],["周署長永暉：對，就像委員提示的，我們跟文化觀光局也聯繫了，然後他們的經費也找到了，所以那個部分我們已經第一時間就……"],["林委員國成：沒有啦！像這種真的我還蠻拜託觀光署，雖然不是你主管，是地方的鄉鎮公所或者地方政府，可是最起碼的話，觀光如果不安全就一定會有危急，因為觀光署本來不是就只要做觀光的發展嗎？安全的部分，第一個，沒有辦法安全，請問未來如何發展？所以這點……"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，我們會列管。"],["林委員國成：部長，我還是拜託你要督促觀光署一下，尤其我常私底下考察的時候，我都跟他們建議，我說我們要多元化建議嘛！有時候這麼好的場地，你可以辦辦年輕人的活動，可以帆船的帆船啊！可以賽車的賽車啊！這種觀光政策只要一制定，你說要不要去編列預算，不一定哦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員國成：BOT很多的，很多人願意去投資，他們來出錢，我出場地，但是我用抽佣方式，政府也不花錢，可是多元化的遊樂，這個我都建議過了，大家都坐在辦公室，只吹冷氣，太冷的話還開暖氣，這樣不好啦！為老百姓做事情真的要動一點頭腦。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員國成：所以這個部分我還是要拜託。","最後，剛才我們同仁在提的，也就是博物館這個事，這個也要列入觀光的一種，不要禮拜六、禮拜天，人家要休閒、要去看，結果你不讓人家看，這點我還要拜託王董事長，說實在，這個觀光的配合雖然不是主要的觀光景點，但是是一個附帶可以充實旅遊的內涵，所以這個部分我還是建議，我蠻贊同就是禮拜六、禮拜天真的不要不開館，這一點我還是要建議一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，感謝委員。"],["林委員國成：部長，所以這個我要拜託你，要談觀光，第一個，你們要把政策制訂好；第二個，要有多元化跟安全的管理，這很重要的啦！好不好？部長、署長，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，觀光署會努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來有請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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個調整好不好現在大概跟部長討論就是朝禮拜一休館其他因應的時間來調整這樣沒關係你看怎麼調我沒有說一定要怎麼調但是我不能允許就是所有的假日通通休館這個我不能接受是不是看怎麼調一下自己你們內部可以做調整好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":136,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（9時36分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["許委員智傑：部長，承剛才李昆澤委員所提到的，當一天和尚敲一天鐘，這是基本的責任；當一天和尚，更要敲好一天鐘，所以要怎麼把鐘敲得更好？這個是每個人盡自己的責任，要把它做最好的表現，所以我是希望很多公務員的思想要慢慢的再去提升，要敲好一天鐘而不是敲一天鐘而已。","我再請教一下部長，現在雙城論壇有一個訴求，他們是不是上海的陸團可以開放到臺灣來？我們臺灣其實很早、很早、很早就已經開放了對不對？現在開放我們臺灣人到中國去旅遊的狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前應該是兩百多萬人吧，到中國旅遊的應該超過兩百多萬人，那臺灣……"],["許委員智傑：只是我們從3月開始開放。"],["陳部長世凱：臺灣到中國的旅遊一向都沒有限制，所以臺灣人民要到中國去旅遊其實是相當自由的。"],["許委員智傑：對，所以你看我們是從3月開放嘛，以前王國材還在當部長的時候，本來是要3月開放到6月。"],["陳部長世凱：是，委員所說的是團客的部分。"],["許委員智傑：對，然後6月之後事實上我們也沒有停嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：其實到目前為止都還有團客在……"],["許委員智傑：也就是說，我們交通部的角度、觀光署的角度到現在一直都是開放的嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：有規劃的……6月以前有規劃的其實都讓他們繼續在走，我所知道到到現在為止團客應該都還在……"],["許委員智傑：對，其實臺灣對中國已經有十足的善意，就等他們對等嘛。國民黨一直在講我們貿易逆差，中國一直不開放，現在只考慮上海是不是可以過來，坦白講那真的只是一點小惠，不足掛齒啦，要的話就全部都開放，跟臺灣一樣對等嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以我想要呼籲國民黨的、藍白的委員，你們一直說臺灣，我們臺灣已經釋出善意，現在是中國不釋出善意，怎麼沒有聽到國民黨的、藍白的委員在罵中國呢？每一次都只會對自己家人大小聲，對外面的人就不敢吭聲，所以其實我是覺得非常的沉痛，我們也希望說政治歸政治、經濟歸經濟，但是你們不要看到中國就腳軟，我希望今天你們如果要呼籲的話就一起嘛！你不要只是上海團嘛！你就一起嘛！全國都一樣嘛！全中國都一樣嘛！跟臺灣對等嘛！所以大家沒有看到臺灣的善意，只會對臺灣罵來罵去，我是覺得這個是藍白最大的問題，所以我也在這邊很沉重地呼籲。","再請教一下，2024觀光產業數位博覽會，部長去那邊看了覺得AI對我們觀光有沒有很大的幫助？"],["陳部長世凱：我相信是會有很大幫助，包含因為現在缺工，所以AI跟智慧化其實可以讓我們需要的人力減少，對於旅宿業一定會有幫助。"],["許委員智傑：所以這個除了在臺北辦，有沒有機會移師高雄？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們在臺北辦的成效還滿好的，其實去看的人也滿多的，媒合到的業者也滿多，我有聽到委員在指教說希望南部可以辦……"],["許委員智傑：是的。"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在也正在評估啦！"],["許委員智傑：因為我一直都在關注臺北的活動跟高雄活動的差距，是不是以後我們每一次在規劃活動的時候都能夠全國思考，而不是只是留在臺北？當然臺北發出第一炮，我們是可以接受啦！但是第二炮總是到高雄來了吧？這個是不是請部長跟署長可以規劃？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，這個我們已經有在規劃，委員有指教這一點，對，臺北我們還是繼續……"],["許委員智傑：當然。"],["陳部長世凱：但是在高雄我們在思考說要不要再辦第二場，這個部分我們來盤點一下預算。"],["許委員智傑：所以一定要儘快思考，不是只是再思考。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["許委員智傑：再來，我們觀光署是不是有主動，就是對於旅遊業、旅宿業、遊樂業等，其實我曾經跟他們講說你們旅遊業或商圈，你們如果有希望用AI的角度來做思考，我們臺北這裡既然有一些經驗，那是不是可以比如說到高雄找我們的商圈、找我們的旅遊、旅宿業做一個座談會，或者是類似AI方面的技術知識的傳遞，然後讓基本上的店家、旅遊、旅宿業等他們可以知道原來我可以這麼用，因為這些東西如果你沒有展覽、沒有親自去指導，他們可能還不知道可以如何去把AI應用進來，所以這個knowhow其實是很重要的，所以是不是請觀光署也有機會規劃，就是針對這樣子的旅遊、旅宿業者，如何也可以有AI的應用到產業裡面去幫助他們，因為博覽會可能是針對所有的店家、民營業者或者是人民都可以去看，針對店家的商店業、旅遊、旅宿業的需求，直接跟他們面對面去告訴他們這樣子一個好的訊息，這個是不是可以可行？也許這樣子幫助他們會更快。"],["周署長永暉：也需要，因為這叫做分享會或者是一個研討的方式交流，這個也是一個……"],["許委員智傑：我不知道臺北有沒有這樣子辦了啦？"],["周署長永暉：我們是有持續在辦，這一次數位博覽會是更擴大，剛剛委員所指教的部分部長也有特別提示了，我們會以南部7縣市的角度來看，能夠for地方的方式。"],["許委員智傑：我希望能夠儘快，我也可以跟南部的旅遊、旅宿業者講，現在人家觀光署要來辦AI知識的或者是AI技術的應用分享。"],["周署長永暉：產學合作很重要……"],["許委員智傑：是不是可以儘快做這種規劃？其實讓他們儘快能用，現在真的就是如剛剛部長所提的人力缺乏嘛！那我如果能夠儘快的話，其實可以解決很多這一部分大家困窘的問題，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["許委員智傑：好，這個能夠儘快齁？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["許委員智傑：另外就是說，我們一直在推動觀光航線，事實上觀光署，現在局變成署之後我們有看到有擴大服務，所以你看看就是我們到了各國去的旅客服務中心已經有增加了，包括印尼、印度、法國巴黎、加拿大等，年底還要設菲律賓馬尼拉。"],["陳部長世凱：是，菲律賓馬尼拉，明天。"],["許委員智傑：好，那這個之外，其實我一直去拜訪很多的航空公司之外，我也去拜訪泰國跟沖繩他們的觀光局，事實上他們做的除了怎麼樣去吸引臺灣旅客去他們國家，而不是他們國家的到我們臺灣來，是臺灣旅客去他們國家，當然就是說我們觀光署設定了這麼多的推廣中心，希望各個國家的旅客到臺灣來，這個是我們觀光署去最主要的目的嘛！航線是不是也可以一併思考？你沒有航線，想要來就沒辦法來，不然就要翻山越嶺、轉好幾班飛機，所以你看印尼雅加達，在我們高雄的立場，我們高雄、南臺灣到東南亞的人口數，我相信不亞於北臺灣啦！所以你可以去做調查，就是去印尼雅加達，從南部去的可能不會比北部少，但是我們都要翻山越嶺，所以如果說有機會高雄直接到雅加達航線，我不知道觀光署有沒有在努力？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們其實把高雄機場設定為整個新南向最重要的機場，所以往東南亞的部分，其實民航局要來努力，當然觀光署也會針對這方面來努力……"],["許委員智傑：因為雅加達其實……"],["陳部長世凱：針對航線的部分、針對新南向的方向，我們一定會來努力爭取給高雄機場。"],["許委員智傑：所以從部長你還沒來之前，我這件事至少講半年以上了，不知道有沒有進度？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實民航局一直在爭取要給高雄的機場可以更多的航線，尤其是往東南亞的方向，這個跟航權的談判其實有一點關係，所以這個部分還在進行中。"],["許委員智傑：我希望部長能夠再請民航局辛苦一點，其實民航局很認真我知道，觀光署也很認真，那我告訴部長一個數據，可能你會覺得很訝異，高雄機場的停機坪的位置大概有38個左右，詳細的我不知道數字有沒有那麼清楚，目前使用的大概只有21、22個，你聽了會覺得很誇張對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：所以我們的航線跟航量還要再增加啦！"],["許委員智傑：不是，停機坪的，光是停機坪的問題，部長可以去了解一下，請局長再跟你講解一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["許委員智傑：這是停機坪的問題，人家飛機要來、航空公司要來，沒有停機坪給他們，停機坪現在快40個，只有停二十多個，剩下的有的是他們之間的約的問題或調配的問題，就是現在有差不多十幾個常常都沒用到這樣啦！這個我想部長可能不見得清楚，但是請民航局長跟你說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這我來了解。"],["許委員智傑：這個問題如果不解決，要增加航班都有困難啦！所以這個也是個嚴重的問題，也就是說高雄機場，我再舉個例子，遠東航空以前有飛機對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["許委員智傑：在臺北停機坪停了一架、在高雄停了一架，現在臺北那一架已經移走了，移走好久了，高雄那一架還停在那裡占位置，這太細了啦！部長你可能不清楚啦，但是我就說高雄跟臺北，高雄我們的公務員心態，那台飛機不敢動就是不敢動，永遠在那邊占位置，別人要用沒辦法用啦。"],["陳部長世凱：了解。"],["許委員智傑：好，所以這個部分雖然比較細，希望部長了解一下，請他們要做妥適的處理。"],["陳部長世凱：我來了解，看要怎麼解決，我們來想辦法解決。"],["許委員智傑：好，最後一件給我30秒的時間，我簡單地要求一下，郵政博物館，沒關係，董事長也知道，部長也知道一下就好，我是簡單地要求，臺北分館跟高雄館從12月17日起，禮拜六、禮拜天、國定假日、連續假期統統休館，現在是怎樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我自己看了也覺得不太合理，所以我有拜託王董事長，是不是在公司裡面要去做調整，那王董事長……"],["許委員智傑：你假日至少讓孩子有機會去看一天嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：假日要啦！"],["許委員智傑：你假日統統休館……"],["陳部長世凱：假日沒開很奇怪。"],["許委員智傑：我的孩子們想要去都沒有機會，大家都休息才要去，現在休息統統休館，這個部分希望部長跟董事長做一個調整好不好？"],["王董事長國材：現在大概跟部長討論就是朝禮拜一休館，其他因應的時間來調整這樣。"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，你看怎麼調，我沒有說一定要怎麼調，但是我不能允許所有的假日統統休館，這個我不能接受，是不是看怎麼調一下，你們內部再去做調整。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許委員。","接下來有請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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會更多！部長，到底發生什麼事？為何國際旅客來臺觀光會衰退成這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，疫情之後，臺灣國際觀光旅客恢復的速度……"],["李委員昆澤：又不是只有臺灣有疫情！"],["陳部長世凱：對，全世界都有疫情，但其他國家恢復的速度比臺灣快，臺灣在今年的速度確實慢了一些，所以這段時間觀光署其實也相當努力，無論是國外的宣傳或臺灣觀光亮點，我們都努力在做。我們也期許……"],["李委員昆澤：努力到只有恢復六成？這叫努力嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：做得還不夠好，所以必須要改進，也必須要改善。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我要提醒你，我們的國際旅客恢復狀況不佳，像日本來臺灣的旅客大概只恢復六成，韓國旅客恢復不到八成，東南亞比較好一點，將近九成。部長，你認為因素到底是什麼？請簡單說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我覺得可能是臺灣……當然，疫情也有關係，但疫情全世界都有，不過我們今年4月遇到了地震，也確實影響……"],["李委員昆澤：日本也有地震。"],["陳部長世凱：日本也有地震，但地震對臺灣觀光影響的是太魯閣，也就是臺灣過去很著重的一個觀光亮點確實受到了影響，當然，這不可以作為理由，只是我們必須要檢討。為什麼旅客來得少？跟委員報告，在第四季日本及韓國的旅客已經有一些回升了。到現在，日本來臺旅客已經到120萬以上，超過120萬……"],["李委員昆澤：部長，還是只有六成多。我請教部長，明年你定下的國際旅客目標是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我的想法是這樣的。今年沒有達到的明年要達到，今年設定了1,000萬……"],["李委員昆澤：你看，你又跟榮耀號的狀況一樣了！你有能力推升到1,200萬，你就說以1,000萬作為目標！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這可能只是及格的目標，只是一個及格的目標，我們當然希望能夠拉得更高。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我再提醒另外一個觀光危機，這是觀光署統計的。29歲以下國人出國旅遊人次持續上升，2019年是24.28%，到2024年已經上升到26.14%，呈現逐年上升趨勢。29歲以下年輕人是我們未來發展觀光的重要主力，但我們的主力不想在臺灣旅遊，想要出國去旅遊，部長有沒有注意到這個趨勢？有什麼因應辦法？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，國旅的部分，除了我們要爭取國際旅客之外，本國人在我們臺灣國家裡面的旅遊也很重要。也就是說國旅的推動……確實在這段時間，我們看到墾丁國旅吸引力可能有些下滑，其他一些地方的國旅吸引力也下滑。也有旅客反映說，飯店是不是太貴？我覺得這一類的問題要一一來解決，讓大家、讓國人比較願意留在臺灣旅遊。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，對於觀光產業的危機，必須面對問題才能解決問題。我們觀光面臨的困境主要是觀光的同質性高，缺乏特色的魅力，缺乏區域景點的品牌；旅遊的品質也不佳，疫情期間的轉型跟改善不足；數位應用、資訊及交通整合也不夠好，乘車及購票的資訊取得很困難，標誌的指引缺失或者雜亂的資訊近用性非常的差；宣傳跟特色沒有辦法結合，缺乏核心的客群，這些都是我們面臨很嚴重的問題。部長來說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所提的這幾點，觀光署應該要一一來解決，這也確實是一般民眾目前對於國旅可能信心不足的原因，委員您指的這幾點其實相當的完整，這個部分其實我覺得觀光署應該要一點一點來克服，想辦法跟旅遊業……"],["李委員昆澤：部長，以日本的作法為例，日本去年就已經通過觀光立國的推進基本計畫，他們就是要搭配地方創生把區域性的地方特色建立起來，打造區域旅遊的品牌特色，但是我們一直沒有做好。","我另外再提一個，日本2024年公布一個觀光政策白皮書，提出2025年消費擴大目標，要藉由提高旅遊的品質及附加價值，使入境的旅客、訪日的外國人，每個人的平均消費額提高到20萬日圓，就是大概1,300美元，讓我們羨慕死，1,300美元耶！臺灣的狀況是什麼？疫情前後的平均消費是下降的趨勢，2019年國際旅客來臺平均消費195美元，我們希望看能不能突破200美元，結果2023年國際旅客來臺灣下降到每日平均只有180.67美元，來臺灣旅遊花錢越來越少，部長你們要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在112年來臺的消費差不多是2,700億左右，今年到目前為止已經達到2,826億，但委員您……"],["李委員昆澤：不要用那種總數來蒙混社會大眾，我講的是每日的消費。部長，我簡單問，日本他們有這種消費的擴大目標1,300美元，你呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分臺灣過去是沒有設定消費的目標，有設定的是人數的目標，但委員提醒這一點，我們應該要設定……"],["李委員昆澤：你要射箭，沒有目標你在射什麼啦？"],["陳部長世凱：因為過去沒有設定，但委員提醒我們應該要設定……"],["李委員昆澤：作為一個觀光署、作為一個交通部，對於國際旅客來臺灣消費，而且消費我們自己也有統計是下滑的趨勢，然後現在說我們沒有設目標，所以比較安心，這是不對的，部長。"],["陳部長世凱：不是這樣說。我知道委員您現在說的設定目標，日本有設定這樣的目標，臺灣過去沒有設定，但未來應該要設定這樣的目標，不過這個要給我們一些時間來計算一下，我們跟經濟部一起來計算，因為這個消費的目標，不是光由觀光署算得出來……"],["李委員昆澤：沒有……"],["陳部長世凱：要跟經濟部一起來規劃。"],["李委員昆澤：觀光署跟交通部也不是昨天才成立，然後現在說你們需要時間，部長……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為過去他們真的沒有設定這個目標。"],["李委員昆澤：趕快啊！在預算審查的時候就要提出來，我會再問一次。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們趕快來設定這個目標。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，我們必須要建立友善的觀光產業，強化培養地方自治團體參與，地方的歷史文化或是地方的商店等等要讓他們來參與，要建立可持續性的觀光模式、強化人才的培訓、強化數位的運用跟整合，另外要強化交通的銜接及資訊的透明簡化。","提到交通，部長，我們必須要改善公共運輸，根據觀光署自己公布的臺灣觀光旅遊調查報告，國人旅遊自行駕車在2019年是63.9%，到今年自行駕車提升到68.2%，你們的公共運輸不便利，所以自行開車比較方便，這也顯示我們公共運輸在整合及搭乘的便利上都明顯的不足。部長簡單說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，這個需要加強，所以交通部一直在推行公共運輸的政策，包含TPASS的部分，但那個只有針對通勤，我們也有延伸到旅遊的部分，但或許宣導不夠或者是路線不夠便利，這個部分是需要加強的。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，都要提出明確的目標啦。榮耀號本來預計是12號才能將所有的旅客都接回來臺灣，但是你10號就做到了。","對於旅遊的總目標必須要明確，你現在只很保守的定在1,000萬，不要那麼保守，要展現你的自信，自信的基礎就是在於你制定相關的政策、相關推動的程序以及相關的目標，這樣你才能逐步的去達成。","消費的擴大目標也是一樣，我們現在不到200美元，而且是衰退，日本是定在1,300美元耶！你沒有目標，怎麼去推動相關的觀光旅遊？當一天和尚敲一天鐘，這是普通的和尚；當一天和尚，被鐘撞一天，這是比較悲劇性的和尚。我來督促部長，加油！"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","我們先確定一下議事錄，各位在場的委員對於議事錄有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見，我們就議事錄確定。","接下來請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":78,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-16","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","許智傑","林國成","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳素月","翁曉玲","蔡其昌","何欣純","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","王義川","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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這個裡面我有特別提到了因為你現在的數位物件利用的權利金沒有像預期且呈現下滑的一個趨勢所以還是一句話我這邊在我的提案表裡面寫得非常清楚了"},{"start":1996.992,"end":2018.763,"text":" ️所以光是數字我們條例的非常的清楚,所以還是希望迎接故宮百年的這個願慶,權利基金可以增加,所以呢我們也希望能夠增加這個該項的一個預算,那這個部分裡面都是因應故宮百年我們希望能夠做到的,然後最後在第9案,我們到第10案嘛,第9案其實也是一樣,你剩餘繳庫的編列預算是6000,但是呢,"},{"start":2022.125,"end":2047.09,"text":"議員﹗"},{"start":2047.17,"end":2048.291,"text":"謝謝柯正委員還有沒有哪位委員"},{"start":2065.368,"end":2091.326,"text":"陳秀寶委員請我幫他談一下第6案他覺得故宮的門票預算還沒有回到過去的標準目前大家都很關心參觀人次的狀況故宮已經百年運慶都有規劃國際交流也應該要對自己的規劃有信心所以他希望能夠增列500萬他很堅持希望給故宮一個自我期許"},{"start":2098.049,"end":2104.351,"text":"一到六案我們來處理七到八案然後九到十案那在一到六案的部分那個規費的收入使用規費收入的場地設施使用費的這個部分"},{"start":2118.217,"end":2118.237,"text":" ﹝討論中﹞"},{"start":2134.189,"end":2159.548,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":2162.289,"end":2179.997,"text":"加油啊我們增列3000多萬我都覺得對你們很不好意思你知道嗎因為真的要對這個故宮很有信心那這樣也符合陳秀寶委員他至少要增列500萬的案子好以上那一到一這邊就是增列3303萬9千元對對415千415"},{"start":2189.316,"end":2216.158,"text":"對,好。接下來我們處理第七、第八案一併處理喔。那個柯志恩委員有提到增列一千萬,那這個院長有沒有可以接受吧?柯委員說五百萬就好了。誰說五百萬?那郭忠朗,我這邊可以有五百萬。好,那我們就給五百萬,增列五百萬,第七案、第八案。那第九案、第十案,那柯志恩委員還是對你們非常有信心,所以呢增列三千萬,院長有沒有意見?"},{"start":2224.356,"end":2242.467,"text":"現在那個大家去年也增略了那今年也增略可是每次增略的時候都成本都沒有增加所以賣水餃也要麵粉所以他相對他要那個盡力才真的是賺錢不是說那個賺了多少錢不算成本所以能不能不要那麼高"},{"start":2243.83,"end":2264.12,"text":"院長你覺得多少你可以接受?國委員說五百吧。現在是科委員喔?對啊,國委員說五百。那國委員不在,科委員在?原來一千啦,一千啦。好,那我們就在第九案、第十案,柯市政委員跟葛文勛委員提案,我們增列一千萬。好。"},{"start":2268.041,"end":2284.629,"text":"接下來我們來審查最初的部分案由是案別是11案到第16案羅廷偉委員好謝謝召委我是第12案我們先來講"},{"start":2288.888,"end":2316.617,"text":"我想我在質詢中也非常關切我們這個兩館的典藏人員在國保未經保護的情況之下直接在旁邊簽收典交控制國保的損害當時這個新聞大家都大概都知道我想這個應該要嚴格把關的一個作業流程及管理的措施典藏人員的教育訓練嚴重不足另外故宮在這個116年6月的時候就傳出疑似遭駭客入侵有未經授權的這個圖檔"},{"start":2317.637,"end":2317.757,"text":"第16案"},{"start":2346.169,"end":2371.12,"text":"我想要特別來講一下我們從每一年度的這個機關預算的這個預算書裡面看到114年有編列這個媒體政策及業務宣導費是994萬但是我們把以往的這個故宮所提供的資料看到那個故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位的預算中有一個推展費它在110年是真的沒有編列喔"},{"start":2371.5,"end":2400.001,"text":"一百一十一年便列291一百一十二是420一百一十三是480一百一十四是560往後卻是連年暴增我們可以看到這個他的這個媒體政策宣導的一個執行情形表可以發現一百一十年的時候是用公務預算去支應為什麼一百一十年可以用公務預算到一百一十四年到一百一十一年這一個過程當中卻要變成用基金來支應所以我覺得"},{"start":2400.882,"end":2419.233,"text":"基金預算書卻沒有見到所謂的這個媒體宣傳的費用。我覺得這個部分我是有很大的疑議,所以我覺得應該全書凍結。以上。好,還有沒有哪一個委員?沒有沒有,主席就開始處理。那我們在這案當中請那個,還有,來,葛如君委員。"},{"start":2421.889,"end":2443.326,"text":"好,本席這邊想要提的是第15案那關於故宮的派員出國的計畫114年編列了297.5萬預計要到英國、日本、韓國、馬來西亞、法國等地那說真的我想博物館之間的往來、交流、出國考察計畫相當正常"},{"start":2444.187,"end":2469.488,"text":"但是出國其實也是希望說官員可以去爭廣見聞、見賢思緒以故宮12月10日剛上傳的歐洲考察報告為例當中有提到這個開放式的庫房這個博伊曼斯範博寧恩博物館採用開放式的庫房15萬件當中有7萬件就在目光可及之處"},{"start":2471.109,"end":2498.094,"text":"觀眾可以透過大片玻璃看見典藏的這個文物跟物件那我們的文物的展示率其實我們之前就質詢的時候就提到了那器物類6.5%書畫類2.6%那圖書文獻類0.1%那全部各類文物展示率都不到10%那我們之前質詢的時候有提到開放庫房的案例是不是可以比較辦理那尤其明年要百年願慶"},{"start":2499.594,"end":2527.336,"text":"那考察報告也有提到英國國家藝廊正在辦200週年的願慶這個人家拍攝200部影片介紹200幅畫作還邀請200位社群媒體一起宣傳200週年的慶典那同時國家藝廊還全新的推出這個大規模的虛擬藝廊讓觀眾可以在官網上瀏覽我們一直在這個質詢的時候都跟這個相關的這個議題上面一直都有在追"},{"start":2528.422,"end":2545.794,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2546.034,"end":2553.096,"text":"議員：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位"},{"start":2575.521,"end":2587.638,"text":"於凍結以利追蹤出口考察的成效。謝謝。好,謝謝。還有沒有哪位委員有意見?如果沒有的話主席會來處理喔。那在這個部分我先請故宮來做一個回答。"},{"start":2592.366,"end":2592.506,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":2615.522,"end":2632.778,"text":"議案書之外的話,同仁出國的話之前都要有一個審查,就是瞭解他的那個工作交代,然後他最後的成果報告,這個部分我們都會檢視,不是出去瀏覽瀏覽看看而已。那另外的話就是文創商品的話,就是"},{"start":2634.079,"end":2658.914,"text":"基本上來講故宮有很多長銷的商品這些東西都一直走那會特別講造成有人誤解就是說那個一般來講所謂的百年紀念幣、紀念酒、紀念郵票我們都會做但其他的商品我們都還是會一樣開發但是那個商品的話是略為長銷的商品那紀念的品牌的話因為它有一點短銷的意味所以這個部分跟委員說你"},{"start":2662.247,"end":2681.884,"text":"好,那我們一樣就是這一幕來處理喔那因為大家的這個每一個案子金額不一喔那這個故宮那個院長這邊這一幕有沒有各位委員有沒有建議沒關係啊,就整幕就好了對,整幕就可以"},{"start":2693.51,"end":2706.912,"text":"好,那我們先處理12、13案,業務費用。那業務費的部分的話,那個有羅廷薇委員跟洪孟楷委員,那你們有沒有想要再給故宮一點機會?"},{"start":2709.319,"end":2736.847,"text":"來才是院長可以剛剛他也沒回答我啊喔來來來回答一下上次出包那兩件事情你要回答一下那個部分基本上來講的話當然我也不能講說都是我上任之前啦可是這個部分的話我們已經把所有的那個文物的維護的安全作業辦法都已經完成確定而且也出版了也送到委辦的辦公室那另外有一個就是說未來我們布卸展包括那個"},{"start":2737.927,"end":2765.162,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":2765.162,"end":2765.282,"text":"謝謝。 那個羅廷偉委員?"},{"start":2781.921,"end":2797.836,"text":"好,我覺得10萬塊很合理啊,請你素面報告讓我們了解一下,再來解凍。好,那這樣子,那個因為,還有洪峰還有人,如果這個12萬、13萬我們都是業務費用,我們就是並按動10萬塊,OK嗎?"},{"start":2805.095,"end":2822.225,"text":"來請洪孟楷委員主席你怎麼把14案郭益勤委員的案子給漏掉了他業務費用其實郭益勤委員的案跟我的都是國外旅費啊那郭益勤委員他要動一百萬欸我們怎麼可以讓民進黨執政黨的委員要動一百萬這個案子可以忽略呢"},{"start":2823.165,"end":2840.638,"text":"所以我覺得這樣子還是要不要支持,因為執政黨的委員那麼難得的提出來,然後提出來之後都還沒有到場。不過我覺得說沒到場也沒關係,我們應該要支持啊。你看范雲文馬上要急著要護航了。所以,開玩笑啦。好啦好啦好啦,來啦來啦,講實在話啦。"},{"start":2846.813,"end":2873.371,"text":"我覺得還是一樣教育及文化委員會的委員過去到現在大家都很平和但是我必須很先正告一下執政黨的委員大家審查預算的時候來來去去其實也是正常但是我覺得大家都有提案各自為各自的提案來負責有些時候譬如說我自己的提案已經說明完了或者是故宮或是其他單位已經有私下來做一個說明了我想各辦公室都一樣"},{"start":2874.071,"end":2902.667,"text":"那能夠接受的我們都合理的接受因為這是平和的我今天不是為我個人講話我是為我們其他委員講話因為有一些委員真的特別被針對性尤其是執政黨委員拍了照早上一整天都在這邊審預算然後結果中途因為有其他的公務去處理就被執政黨委員拍了照然後上傳說沒來我覺得這個事情絕對不是一個正向的處理的方式"},{"start":2903.507,"end":2904.188,"text":"好 我的十三案"},{"start":2930.134,"end":2958.969,"text":"故宮有跟我來做說明其實我也覺得說博物館的這種互相的交流確實也是正常也應該如果說要館跟館之間館際的這個正常的交流我覺得還是要做可是在這一次裡面我們看到就如同剛剛一開始柯志恩委員有講到明年是我們故宮百年我們今年7月的時候也陪同昭偉有去捷克做國會外交的時候也特別去看了一下國會捷克的國家博物館"},{"start":2959.309,"end":2975.009,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":2975.638,"end":3002.31,"text":"上一次崔玉白在第一次出國什麼時候2014年10年前他是去日本是東京博物館而且當時有獲得日本也是高規格的對待並且當時的講法叫做請管相出啊等於是我們故宮拿出最好的展品去日本東京做交流日本東京也拿出最好的展品之後回訪來做我們的一個交流"},{"start":3002.99,"end":3018.688,"text":"我請教一下在這一次我們特別針對捷克不管捷克過去到現在很多議題上面給我們國家的一個支持那但是這一次我們展完之後捷克那邊方有沒有什麼樣的一個互相的一個平等對等的一個交流"},{"start":3019.269,"end":3019.289,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":3037.805,"end":3038.145,"text":"謝謝孟凱,我們請院長回答"},{"start":3058.234,"end":3075.725,"text":"議員﹚議長﹚"},{"start":3076.681,"end":3100.469,"text":" ﻻ﹏"},{"start":3100.889,"end":3120.766,"text":"請教院長,因為郭玉琦委員因為他現在不在還沒有來,那他有提案凍結100萬,你們有跟他溝通過了嗎?有到他辦公室溝通嗎?但是看起來他也沒有改變嘛,所以我們可能還是要尊重這個提案。委員那時候他說到現場討論,所以他沒有接受嘛。因為現在郭玉琦委員不在現場,所以發言委員。"},{"start":3123.188,"end":3123.448,"text":"社會自由公平"},{"start":3145.157,"end":3160.933,"text":"好 那當然就是社會自由公平那本黨委員不是沒來而是因為選罷法那天禮拜一的狀況那我本黨的立場是認為那天會議無效因為民進黨立委全部被排除沒有辦法參與那個選罷法初委員會的討論他們是因為這樣所以委託我"},{"start":3164.156,"end":3185.592,"text":" ︎今天就是在就是幫他們的議案因為各辦公室都有溝通過所以關於委員的意思是並動那像剛剛那個陳秀華委員就特別替我幫他堅持我就幫他表達堅持其他如果沒有特別堅持的部分那我們的意思就是跟大家一起整體並動一百萬"},{"start":3187.173,"end":3212.536,"text":"所以並不需要第12、13、14動100啦就是這整項就是並動100萬那我想這是我幫郭議員表達立場謝謝好謝謝范議員委員但是我們今天是教育文化委員會在審查我們的委員其實還是應該都要在這裡來審查會比較好一點那我們可以待會發言其實是表達這個意見但是不能是做成他的意志上的決定"},{"start":3213.397,"end":3234.214,"text":"所以我想這個案子大家有沒有什麼想法來尊重大家討論那個也有提案的那個孟凱委員跟庭委委員還是要尊重郭育群委員對不起我在處理孟凱委員有沒有想法或者是庭委這一案"},{"start":3236.638,"end":3261.607,"text":"那我們這樣子好了。剛剛發言委員不是就說要併動嗎?那既然發言委員要併動的話。不是這整項併動一百萬啊,整項啊。整項?什麼意思?因為我們過去民進黨委員的精神,那如果要單項的話就十萬。那如果要整項的話就要支持吳佩奕委員喔,併動一千,凍結一千萬啊。對啊。沒有整項大家可以討論啊,因為過去他喊一千萬大家現場都會讓步嘛。就那個姿勢,姿勢還沒有普通的。讓步不就是。阿家秋。來到現場來啊。"},{"start":3265.778,"end":3292.851,"text":"我剛剛已經講了大家委託我幫忙就是說現場一起處理就是如果單項的話顧玉琴委員就是他這邊可以凍結10萬如果整項的話我想我們現在可以在一起來討論啊來 廷偉委員好 那我支持就整項凍啦齁 那我支持吳佩奕委員的提案凍結1000萬好 謝謝 那廷偉委員提支持吳佩奕委員的1000萬那孟凱委員有沒有"},{"start":3293.993,"end":3297.4,"text":"也支持吳佩儀委員的一千萬。那我們其他的委員呢?"},{"start":3299.07,"end":3326.51,"text":"議員﹚議員﹚"},{"start":3326.73,"end":3327.031,"text":"議會主管委員會主席"},{"start":3342.634,"end":3370.201,"text":"那個推展會的話基金是賺錢的宣傳然後那個本預算的話是業務的宣傳一個是為了為了商業推動的宣傳活動包括參加參加那個商展禮展什麼這個這部分的經會那另外的話本預算的話是做比如說那個podcast另外這種東西並不是說去去登廣告做宣傳都是有業務在執行我有把它動掉的話那我年"},{"start":3371.081,"end":3371.101,"text":" ﹝廣告聲﹞"},{"start":3386.314,"end":3402.829,"text":"好的,那個院長我聽到你的解釋了齁我目前會再來查證那沒關係我現在可以尊重你齁那這個部分我可以退讓但是呢所以我就說我沒有要全數凍結在這個部分上所以基於剛剛有提到整項來做處理所以我是支持吳佩奕委員所提案的一千萬"},{"start":3404.94,"end":3427.5,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3429.269,"end":3451.876,"text":"那個媒體及政策業務宣導有困難所以我沒有動那個阿現在是整項阿整項是32億994萬全數凍結沒關係那個聽委員委員來處理好了好不好我想這樣子喔就是其實故宮的同仁其實也是真的大家也很認真啦但是其實有很多應該要檢討改善的地方當然委員隊有把它提出來我想最初的部分我們就這樣啦整個凍結500萬好了好不好"},{"start":3463.101,"end":3469.005,"text":"委員長 其實 我覺得 院長 你拉回來看一下啦 我們12案到16案都是針對個別的"},{"start":3481.573,"end":3481.593,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":3498.336,"end":3499.437,"text":"院長,您如果要堅持1000萬,您這裡可以接受嗎?"},{"start":3521.327,"end":3524.888,"text":"接下來我們來審第一幕一般行政17案到29案來"},{"start":3547.475,"end":3549.842,"text":"我們一樣先正經順序過去,柯執政委員。"},{"start":3551.604,"end":3580.595,"text":"好我先看一下我是21、25跟29那我21因為是跟在25跟29就可以來做一個處理所以我21案先撤因為是基本行政工作維持我21要先撤這跟故宮溝通過但是比較重要就是在25案是有關業務費水電費的部分你會看到出來這個水電費已經增加的非常非常的多那故宮來做一個解釋可能你們要增加一些什麼管什麼之類的所以呢"},{"start":3581.015,"end":3608.439,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3609.199,"end":3630.049,"text":"我本來是寫簡列500啦那故宮有做一個解釋所以到底要簡列多少我們到時候可以跟其他委員共同來做討論因為我剛剛看到了在業務費部分裡面其他委員都還有一些的想法那我今天要表達是有關第29案我覺得29案我要請所有的委員跟我一起來關注一下因為29案你現在故宮所有的事情"},{"start":3630.769,"end":3630.809,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":3647.429,"end":3671.546,"text":"而且呢等一下我們可能會提到這南院更是大量的使用這個勞務承攬的人力那你要是萬一發生等一下會有委員提出來你萬一發生了一些磕口霸凌的狀況你怎麼樣來申述我們一案歸一案喔我這邊要特別提出來就是同樣是故宮但是是同工不同仇喔你看你北部我是根據你的預算數來算北院的空調管理人員是17人"},{"start":3672.927,"end":3687.944,"text":"議員："},{"start":3687.944,"end":3704.053,"text":" ︎ ︎ ︎"},{"start":3704.473,"end":3713.7,"text":"兩院還是一樣有差距還是一樣有差距我覺得這個部分裡面呢那你給我一個新的數據有差距但是所以我才說你給我的數據到底是正確還是不正確而且我還是要老實在講請問一下南北院的公務人員有差距嗎你們公務人員的薪資有差距嗎"},{"start":3723.067,"end":3723.647,"text":" 對不对?"},{"start":3723.647,"end":3751.233,"text":"那你如果沒有差距的話南北你光是民間如果一個月差五千一個月如果差五千塊光是民間南北一個月差五千一年就差六萬你故宮比六萬還要多你覺得你公務人可以這樣帶頭做起嗎?所以我覺得這個部分裡面故宮要給個交代所以呢我剛剛說這個數字是看預算書所以我提出九十一有本有據你提一個數據來告訴我然後呢你的勞務成人的人力又通常這麼低"},{"start":3752.553,"end":3752.874,"text":"謝謝柯政委員。下一位。"},{"start":3766.96,"end":3788.642,"text":"蘿婷薇委員我是第20案,簡單來講就是我們現在看到庫房人力的配置真的讓我們很擔憂現在包括技工才有50個人所負責點管的多達70萬件文物每人平均要管14000多件,龐大的工作量我覺得超出他們一個個人可以負荷的一個人力"},{"start":3789.102,"end":3809.432,"text":"那我們可以看到民國97年開始至111年101年他們就整整耗時了三年七個月去點這相關的故宮文物顯見所有的人力配置工作模式雖然能夠完成但是大規模的盤點造成的時間配置我覺得是有一個很大的考驗"},{"start":3809.932,"end":3837.486,"text":"那故宮的典藏我們大概每20年要減少至少要有一次全面的盤點我希望至少未來在這個現行的人力應該要有所調整保障他們的工作有效之外還能夠分配勞力是有一個比較公平的那是不是能夠增加專業的人力編制或者是導入科技輔助工具這個部分是我給予的一個期許目前凍結是100萬希望他們能夠有一個書面報告才可以使得凍結"},{"start":3839.383,"end":3856.175,"text":"好,謝謝聽委還有沒有哪位委員范芸委員下一位葛如君委員我是先講第22案這是那個陳秀寶委員請我幫他發言因為他是針對故宮的職場霸凌那你們有來說明但他覺得說明的時候"},{"start":3857.155,"end":3884.617,"text":"就是說明人員好像覺得要等人事總處有新的通盤規劃那因為陳秀寶委員認為你們目前的方法是把性騷擾跟霸凌處理一併處理那沒有明定調查小組跟評議會的組成那這樣其實並不好其實應該要分開處理然後明定調查小組跟評議會的組成那所以希望故宮這個檢討那他是堅持一定要動但是樹木的話他可以跟大家一起並動"},{"start":3885.938,"end":3906.781,"text":"這是他的第22案。另外吳佩儀委員的是第17案。他是關於故宮在服裝的部分,男院的部分。你們表達說經費允許廠商只能提供女性服務人員、裙裝等等。所以明年才能夠製作褲裝或裙裝供其選擇。"},{"start":3907.682,"end":3907.702,"text":"閱讀者﹖"},{"start":3925.964,"end":3954.105,"text":"謝謝主席本席在第一幕一般行政這邊有兩個提案第一個是第19案是關於人事費故宮的法定員額是351人那我們在過去的幾次質詢當中針對了很多工作項目還有人力的部分提出詢問包含這個文物修復等等那我們得到的這個官員的答覆呢經常都會說人力不足"},{"start":3955.026,"end":3973.182,"text":"但是呢實情是什麼?實情是故宮法定約351人到目前為止實際員額實際聘用的員額只有303人也就是還有48個員額還沒有補滿我必須說這些資料都是我們自己去跟人事行政總署要來的我們才得到這些資訊"},{"start":3975.003,"end":3994.308,"text":"最後故宮也補了一些相關的資訊說確實是這樣根據故宮提供資料扣除機要留職停薪考試缺以後當然你們也做了一些資訊的修補說還有辦理零補作業有18人請問這18個人在114年度到底能不能全數補滿這18位另外你們也提出說還有15個人正在規劃中"},{"start":4004.131,"end":4022.832,"text":"請問正在規劃中是什麼意思?要規劃到什麼時候?規劃完了什麼時候可以聘用完成?本席在後面的第88案也有提到為什麼我們現在在這一案要來講人力編制的問題是因為我們非常關注科技的時代其實歷史只有一次文物如果出問題了出狀況了"},{"start":4024.534,"end":4039.327,"text":" ﹗其實未來要做一個整體的修復,成本、時間、耗能會越來越高。所以我們應該及早去編制所謂的修復人力。而目前故宮修復人力竟然只有12個人,要負責70萬件文物的典藏,遠遠不足。"},{"start":4041.289,"end":4066.281,"text":"那故宮這邊有回覆我們說會再向行政院爭取11個修復員額但是事實擺在眼前現實的法定員額沒有補滿行政院幾乎不可能讓故宮再增加員額嘛 對不對所以是不是可以研議讓這48個員額裡面有部分就先趕快調整為修復人力讓現在本來就已經非常稀缺的修復人力馬上獲得增補"},{"start":4067.501,"end":4078.784,"text":"另外,根據故宮有回覆,113年度的人事預算費用有高達5億。到了113年的11月底,執行數還剩下5600多萬是沒有執行的,這個執行率是90%。"},{"start":4089.306,"end":4097.73,"text":"所以也就是有10%是沒有執行的那主要是因為缺額沒有補滿的緣故所以預算上面我們的評估是這樣我們也不是隨便亂凍結而是說假如故宮沒有辦法承諾114年度可以將48個缺額補滿的話本席認為人事費應該要予以凍結我們其實下手也很輕"},{"start":4107.955,"end":4107.995,"text":" ﹝語言中﹞"},{"start":4129.443,"end":4142.353,"text":" ﹗台電的整體漲幅是14.5%,但是我不確定院長有沒有瞭解到故宮114年度的水電費跟113年度相比竟然增加55%,55.41%,這個漲幅跟台電電價的漲幅相比落差實在有點太大了。"},{"start":4149.458,"end":4164.126,"text":"議長,因為我是阿宅,我對電費突然暴漲,我都非常關心。到底是你裡面裝了什麼AI超級電腦,還是在做什麼樣的特別的運算?這個我覺得院長應該要仔細說明,不然我們全世界台灣都在那邊省電,那個該關燈的關燈,結果故宮的電費在暴漲,這很奇怪。"},{"start":4169.289,"end":4196.417,"text":"那尤其呢我想這個這個整個電力的運作的穩定度故宮有那麼多的文物要做恆溫、恆濕這個相關的電力你們有沒有研議說要去做一些這個所謂的備存等於是說你不要用在高尖峰的時段你其實不要用高尖峰的電價你可以用其他的機制用備存的電力現在有很多的技術可以做到這件事這也是綠能減碳的一種做法"},{"start":4196.817,"end":4198.518,"text":"接下來我們有請吳淳澄委員下一位黃孟海委員"},{"start":4228.845,"end":4231.81,"text":"台灣明年就進入超高齡社會"},{"start":4234.659,"end":4260.44,"text":"故宮是高齡者很喜歡去的這個文化的場域的一個場所但是現在我們故宮對這個族群每年有辦樂齡主題樂就稱為樂齡但是我很多的朋友都告訴我你只要用樂齡兩個字我就不想去了"},{"start":4261.781,"end":4272.765,"text":"我不曉得各位,樂齡是指55,你們就講說教育部稱為55歲以上,稱為樂齡。稱為樂齡。那你知道55歲現在有多少人?有790萬人。我不曉得在座有沒有,如果你55歲以上被稱為樂齡你開不開心啊?那現在當然我在推動壯世代。現在這個"},{"start":4287.813,"end":4307.478,"text":"教育部也響應了從明年1月份開始推動壯世代第三人生大學開始試辦,開始針對55歲以上的進入大學而且是有學歷的,積極在改變我們大學的學制。"},{"start":4308.118,"end":4322.454,"text":"那故宮呢既然作為一個壯世代非常喜歡去的一個場域是不是可以以後舉辦的可不可以更改為叫做壯世代主題樂相關的這個活動因為呢"},{"start":4327.422,"end":4344.467,"text":"現在各部會也在配合辦理我們行政院有壯世代跨部會小組有14個部會加入包括比較大場域的像今年的諮詢月11月份的時候諮詢月"},{"start":4346.067,"end":4363.268,"text":"議員．議員"},{"start":4363.268,"end":4363.288,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":4383.262,"end":4410.337,"text":"我要求要改變這個然後凍結3000好 謝謝那下一位我們有請洪孟楷委員好 我27案我簡單講啦水電費是台電這幾年持續的一個增加那當然增加你就應該要符合比例的一個增加但是故宮增加的比例是比台電漲價還要增加來的多而且將近三倍之多台電漲價只有17%、14%但是故宮幅度高達55%"},{"start":4411.678,"end":4434.203,"text":"所以如果說你講說行政費用增加是因為台電漲價的話那你應該是名符其實那有沒有因為這樣而灌水的這一點我要請故宮說明如果說沒有辦法說明的話我覺得這一個部分凍結一千萬那之後使得動滯以上謝謝好謝謝孟凱還有沒有兩位委員好那我們就開始處理我們整個第一幕請故宮做回答"},{"start":4436.62,"end":4455.454,"text":"人事的部分先說,人事的部分的話當然18人的臨補作業的話基本上來講已經到了尾聲因為今年開始進行臨補然後最後的話就是會有部分的人臨補可是有一些職缺的話就是要做內部的升遷所以當然有這樣的一個問題"},{"start":4459.172,"end":4489.172,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":4489.172,"end":4513.797,"text":"議員：議員．議員．議員．議員．"},{"start":4514.915,"end":4530.733,"text":"再來有關水電的部分,這比較大塊。水電的部分故宮過去在整個基本預算通商的期間裡面都一直刪一直刪。刪了之後的話到今年的……"},{"start":4532.575,"end":4532.595,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":4550.843,"end":4576.609,"text":"所以現在的話我的想法是說讓水電會恢復到他該有的水電的預算的科目要不然的話就變成說我的展覽會用業務費也要去貼就是說那個什麼企務處也要貼一點然後室溫處也要貼一點然後每一個單位都要分攤一點水電費這樣基本上來講的話對預算的編列是不正常的可是因為這是長期以來的一個現象"},{"start":4577.469,"end":4577.489,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":4594.312,"end":4595.133,"text":" ﹝竹刀的長官﹞﹞"},{"start":4619.428,"end":4641.169,"text":"議員：議員："},{"start":4641.903,"end":4670.503,"text":"議員﹗"},{"start":4671.315,"end":4690.613,"text":"你還沒有回答我的。南北新資的。南北新資齁。跟委員報告公務員的薪水的話是沒有差跡是沒有錯。可是因為剛也提過就是說因為我們是用委外用外包。外包的話他就有廠商競價。廠商競價的話他在基本工資的一個額度之下。"},{"start":4691.374,"end":4719.002,"text":"議員﹚議員﹚"},{"start":4720.803,"end":4744.657,"text":"所以故宮還是沒有辦法要解決南北薪資差距的一個問題而且我還要強烈質疑我是根據你的預算書然後算出原本北部是91你現在給我74你告訴我我怎麼一下算完你又給我一個新的一個數據而且我說實在的我還沒有特別提到你114年你告訴我是76.32"},{"start":4746.238,"end":4749.963,"text":"你還告訴我是略高於113年74.64你說已經調高了2.25現在我們現在調整個根據行政院的部分是要調高3.3%本身你2.5還不符合3%的這樣的一個標準了所以這個問題你們就要讓他繼續留存著就對了"},{"start":4764.121,"end":4790.486,"text":"議員﹚議員﹚"},{"start":4791.668,"end":4797.337,"text":"你也差太多了,好不好?你差了比6萬多還要多耶!"},{"start":4798.291,"end":4798.911,"text":"我隨便講一個你難願"},{"start":4824.239,"end":4827.101,"text":"對不对,你先聽我講,你南院的前科管科的科長被投訴嘛,你現在已經被調離了,而且我現在比較argue的是一點什麼,你們就有,你們,你他被調離的時候投訴的粉磚是不斷在深淵,你們把他封鎖,你們政風處有去南下去調查,但是都以那個旅遊不充分就否決。"},{"start":4845.973,"end":4856.741,"text":"但是你沒有發現一個公職的護理師他拒絕假日來值班然後呢就讓你約聘的這個護理師就必須要來他因為勞役不均身心受創來投訴但是院長你知道嗎你們卻以告訴他你們的救濟僅限於公務員為由拒絕他的申訴故宮也告訴大家申訴的說法以公職人員為限故宮拼了那麼多的"},{"start":4875.555,"end":4890.811,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":4891.632,"end":4915.953,"text":"你那麼高的比率那你知道這些人怎麼辦既低薪南部比北部更低薪然後人家發生的事情來申訴要嘛就給人家粉專給封鎖然後呢如果真正是有的話你又告訴他我們申訴只限於公職人員那你覺得這公平嗎跟委員報告我會去了解齁但是申訴絕對不會只限公職人員你們講的你們回覆的只限於公職人員吶"},{"start":4917.291,"end":4923.119,"text":"委員長,有心去查一下班表吧,還給人家一個公道啦,注意一下管理問題啦,你有心去查一下班表,我剛剛所講的,都是完全根據證據來說話。"},{"start":4932.031,"end":4932.111,"text":"閱议委員．﹖"},{"start":4964.537,"end":4983.295,"text":"我們是不是來處理整個第一幕的這個預算那那個各位委員這一幕我們一樣就是整幕來動那包括我自己有24案、28案跟大家並案處理那這個洞結束然後我要堅持在什麼樣的預算案上"},{"start":4986.311,"end":5004.171,"text":"我剛才第23案我要請這個院長還是思考一下不然我要堅持我們現在到這一階段就全部談完數字了好不好所以吳俊成委員提議三千萬那如果那個委員大家沒有其他的意見那我們就這一幕啊"},{"start":5006.428,"end":5030.694,"text":"我幫吳佩儀委員講一下因為後來你們有跟她溝通之後知道從今年6月政策就開始改變嘛針對那個女性員工的服裝然後新的服裝就是設計上也已經開放了然後參考員工的意見所以她願意跟大家並動然後數字也就是並沒有要那麼高所以就是那陳秀寶委員她是堅持要"},{"start":5031.614,"end":5032.214,"text":"一人之委員．"},{"start":5059.687,"end":5082.953,"text":"但是我還是強烈要求,剛剛不管南北的這個問題還有剛好巴黎問題,我覺得故宮要給我一個非常清楚的交代。好,我們現在處理預算數了。那這整幕呢,我們就是動3000萬,然後那個用書面報告之後使得解凍。然後我們今天所提出來在這一幕裡面相關的議題,請故宮用最快的速度能夠回覆各委員辦公室。"},{"start":5084.261,"end":5099.955,"text":"好,接下來我們來處理第二幕。那第二幕的部分的話是從30案到39案。若聽為委員。好,我是第37案喔,麻煩大家看一下。"},{"start":5104.121,"end":5121.442,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5121.562,"end":5121.582,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":5137.561,"end":5162.267,"text":" »:19、還有48.27。113年截至這個7月底的數據還是下降到64.24。我想整體而言我們可以看到我們希望現階段兩岸交流文化的一個交流也無法融冰入客缺少的一個情況之下如何有效大幅提升這次的參觀人數給這個前故宮100活動的吸引力能夠做出來這是我覺得這是一個重要課題所以我凍結250萬希望能夠給予我一個書面報告讓我能夠確認"},{"start":5167.21,"end":5167.952,"text":"這錢花的值不值得?"},{"start":5173.769,"end":5179.274,"text":"範圍委員,你這樣會很忙耶,因為你要幫所有的委員來講耶,這整個早上。沒有幫所有啦,就是幾個而已。因為你們有七個委員嘛,所以你要幫六個委員來講。"},{"start":5199.59,"end":5222.396,"text":"三十五案的部分陳秀寶委員他是希望能夠在網路推廣跟網路能見度故宮這麼精彩那未來又有100院慶能夠給自己多一點期許跟期待所以他有凍結500萬那希望你們在網路推廣跟能見度這個部分可以做得更好一點那我幫他表達一下"},{"start":5222.796,"end":5251.303,"text":"好 謝謝那這樣子的話我們第二幕很簡單我們第二幕的部分的話我們就以程旭寶委員凍結五百萬的數額第二幕凍結五百萬輸滅這個報告之後使得折凍接下來我們第三幕第三幕是40案到85案來各位委員有沒有兩位委員好來慢慢翻慢慢翻來我們第三幕喔40案到85案大家準備一下羅廷薇委員"},{"start":5254.787,"end":5272.432,"text":"蘇貴圖黨"},{"start":5272.532,"end":5277.494,"text":"第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第13次總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關"},{"start":5304.396,"end":5305.176,"text":"接下來我們請議員、指揮員。"},{"start":5331.031,"end":5348.48,"text":"五十三案喔那這邊有編168萬是作為故宮的社教推廣及博物館的行銷的媒體政策跟業務宣導費用但我們看他的這個網路的經營好像"},{"start":5349.309,"end":5376.681,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5379.841,"end":5380.922,"text":"無寸城委員、范雲委員、柯之恩委員"},{"start":5397.435,"end":5411.688,"text":"四、九、六十二、七十二、八十有五個案子那這裡要提的就是第43案現在我們的故宮的這個的這個訪客國際旅客在114年的時候有在今年"},{"start":5424.926,"end":5445.463,"text":"一百七十萬次本來目標是一百七十萬次但是到現在只有達到七十多萬次少了一百萬人次再來的話就是我們的故宮的點閱率那個網站的精選網站的點閱率"},{"start":5447.665,"end":5454.151,"text":"在過去2021年有327萬到今年只有54萬落差何其之大300多萬變成50幾萬所以這些經營的都非常的不用心"},{"start":5464.147,"end":5476.405,"text":"那所以在這部分是不是有改善?在73案當中我再談的教育部教育部教育部73案72案72案72案當中教育部"},{"start":5479.91,"end":5498.11,"text":"提今年開始規劃第三人生大學那故宮的這個資料可以趁這個機會跟這個第三人生大學去結合是不是可以有一些比較積極的推廣的措施以上"},{"start":5499.79,"end":5499.99,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5530.63,"end":5558.958,"text":"第48案主要是關於你們現在的校園大使他發現你們這裡面沒有彰化的學校作為彰化的立委覺得你們這中間除了沒有彰化之外也沒有苗栗、屏東跟台東故宮在校園大使的部分是不是城鄉教育資源要注意到平衡的問題這個部分如果你們等一下報告有提到有確實改善的做法他也可以改成主決議"},{"start":5560.575,"end":5582.552,"text":"第56案他比較希望能夠並動就是你們現在故宮對團體參觀的秩序應該要訂一些更明確的規範譬如說不能在展區推擠站位或停留以提升故宮的參觀的水平否則對觀眾還有國保可能都有潛在的影響那這個部分他希望能夠並動"},{"start":5583.953,"end":5609.838,"text":"第57案是我自己的就是關於我一直關心故宮的身心障礙的參與機制我覺得要有常態性的委員跟參與機制能夠邀請身心障礙人事或團體代表而且比例應該要過半故宮有表達說已經會納入常態的委員所以這部分如果你們等一下我是希望能夠就是說因為這是一個辦法"},{"start":5611.178,"end":5637.501,"text":"愈快改善愈好那如果你們能夠承諾的話那我看看就是要不要改成主決議這是我的第57案那第63案也是陳秀寶委員的他覺得百年願慶是不是能夠展現就是AI在博物館展覽跟藝術的表現這個部分能夠導向相關的展覽那這部分他可以改成主決議或跟大家一起並動"},{"start":5638.702,"end":5657.022,"text":"第74案是林一錦委員的,它也是關於故宮的開放資料的深度運用,因為覺得目前的狀態還是不夠開放,不能讓故宮的這麼豐富的知識局限在小圈子裡面,應該要既然我們已經花錢了,應該要能夠更開放。"},{"start":5657.483,"end":5657.603,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":5679.599,"end":5705.742,"text":"議員﹚議員﹚"},{"start":5705.842,"end":5730.152,"text":"好,謝謝。我想再寫下最後一個。那個張雅琳委員很關心兒童的部分。所以你們在兒童青年事務推動諮詢委員會這個部分是不是能夠比照其他的機構開放永續發展工作小組的相關資訊。那如果你們這邊可以做到的話,它可以改成主決議,然後你們提書面報告。"},{"start":5731.212,"end":5732.893,"text":"拜託發言委員,我們自己講自己的,因為如果說其實偶一為之,就是委員有時候剛好有一個事情再回來,或者是"},{"start":5748.217,"end":5776.937,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5777.219,"end":5793.456,"text":"所以上一次文化部的預算我們從早上就一個早上都在你們的人都沒有一個在除了你之外還有另外一個我們都看在眼裡然後我們離開一下就拍照就說我們沒來那這樣子的話你們的人請問一下為什麼審預算都不來都跑去幹嘛了都不尊重故宮齁"},{"start":5797.018,"end":5814.299,"text":"其實我想這個除了發言委員轉達之外因為今天直播其實大家都會知道我覺得各辦公室的這個助理回去也要跟這個委員講一下那今天呢因為我們要審查故宮的預算其實大家都準備了很久也非常的嚴謹喔那我們希望喔這個每一個委員你們今天就講自己的提案"},{"start":5814.759,"end":5842.749,"text":"但是如果有真的遇到偶一出去這樣子我覺得主席是可以接受的但是又要照剛才那個模式今天之後的我們不接受這樣處理接下來我們請柯子恩委員好有關第三幕的部分我提出了46、47、58、64、70跟75我想就誠如剛剛趙薇所提到大家都很認真但是時間有限所以我根據幾個我不會每一個都提然後我等一下可以跟大家一起共同來併案或等一下處理"},{"start":5843.149,"end":5851.335,"text":"但是有兩個部分三個部分我一定要特別提出來就是第58第58的部分裡面是有關於綜合規劃跟推廣行銷的部分我只要請問故宮你其中有個說明說你是辦電子化服務建置跟整合的委託案總共是編了1230萬但是呢我們查過去113年你編700、112年你編了200那你這個時候為什麼兩年之內你要調漲5倍"},{"start":5872.569,"end":5883.799,"text":" ️那你是物價上揚加薪還有什麼什麼之類的我覺得這個部分裡面我有考量進去但是為什麼會漲5倍所以這個部分我是做出簡列300萬的這個部分當然也可以挺故宮來做一個說明那到第64案我個人是比較care因為我知道說"},{"start":5892.727,"end":5918.698,"text":"所有的因為我以前常去逛北院故宮嘛那我對於故宮完善的志工的服務制度我說實在我非常impress但是我還是要提出來南北的落差還是非常大雖然故宮在今年11月你們榮獲了這個文化部的這個全國基優文化志工還有基優志工的了解但是呢你們素質很高但是南院為什麼招募困難且流失部長啊院長你有沒有去了解"},{"start":5919.298,"end":5943.882,"text":"因為你南院目前為止你共7期的志工目前僅留下126人那你第8期雖然有超過100人徵選但是面試等而變成40人而且最重要的是大家都陸續離職你們北院的故宮大家不想離職南院故宮陸續離職目前只剩下24人而且你院長你現在知道南院有多少故宮嗎需要多少才夠院長你知道嗎我告訴你你覺得需要多少"},{"start":5949.042,"end":5950.623,"text":"南越需要多少志工採購?起碼要240個,你知道現在要多少?240個才足夠,你目前只有217,然後你造成這個銳減,北部沒有問題,南越有這個問題是什麼?"},{"start":5966.271,"end":5994.138,"text":"好了,那要300人你說的現在都要217那個差距更大這表示在管理還有在整個這個志工的層面上有嘛我告訴你連我都知道你不可能不知道啊你沒有好好做訓練啊你在12期之前你沒有限定一定要通過志工考核才變成合格啊而且你儘管不是以雙語為主軸但是你也是到第13期你才要求什麼通過導覽考核啊那你到底你們相對於南院的志工的目前呢"},{"start":5994.718,"end":6010.589,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6010.769,"end":6029.065,"text":"這是小事,但是我告訴你給人家過期的月曆、轉手的禮品還要出現南院明令志工不得參加其他文化單位的記者會等等拜託耶,院長去了解一下我是剛好趁著64的案的時候特別提出來我還是要強烈的要求院長要提出一個解釋出來了"},{"start":6030.126,"end":6058.971,"text":"好那這些都是零零總總有非常多那我還有一個75案還是一樣跟其他委員一樣百年故宮我們還是期許這個一百週年應該有特殊的文創或者是小物來作為故宮的一個亮點那我覺得為了要督促故宮做好這個故宮的行銷我覺得是透過凍結的方法請故宮在三個月之內跟我們來報告一下到底你們要做出什麼然後我們才來做解凍雖然只有這麼多案子但我提出三案來做一個說明"},{"start":6059.991,"end":6060.333,"text":"葛如晶委員"},{"start":6065.64,"end":6095.64,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6095.64,"end":6122.363,"text":" ﹝﹝﹞"},{"start":6122.463,"end":6151.531,"text":"那我想既然導覽已經全面更新了現在我們也已經進入2024年的年代了這個伊隆馬斯克都說2026年這個普及人工智慧就要來了我們現在還在用這個按按鈕來聽聲音有這麼多的NFC的技術可以去tap可以聽到語音或者用QR code甚至是直接用物件辨識的方式那我們現在台灣不要說我們在編科技預算的時候都說我們是科技指導"},{"start":6151.991,"end":6152.411,"text":"第61案是關於112年發生故宮懲罰人員不小心把"},{"start":6173.443,"end":6173.463,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":6188.422,"end":6214.228,"text":" ﹗未來有可能的一些版權、盈利等等的一些機會可能會流失掉。那事件發生以後故宮這邊有跟我們說就是說有制定故宮博物院數位典藏圖像產製取用及備份作業須知那原本有委託第三方的資安顧問公司漢興每年進行一次的失通安全內部集合那我想既然已經集合了"},{"start":6214.668,"end":6214.688,"text":" ﹝提問﹞"},{"start":6231.818,"end":6259.339,"text":"沒有辦法好好來運用這些資源來做下一次事件的預防那我覺得這個錢花的也沒花吼那第71案呢是有關本席總質詢的時候一再提出的問題截至目前為止我們台灣就是說邊科技預算說科技之島的時候都喊了很大那文化跟科技是一體的我一直在講這件事情這個世界越科技我們越要重視文化跟歷史但是呢我們現在的這個算是一個AI國家對台德"},{"start":6260.64,"end":6289.599,"text":""},{"start":6289.719,"end":6312.694,"text":"政府機關內部的單位把故宮兩個字放上去在未來它的報告跟全世界講跟國會議員講就講說欸故宮有合作這都做不到那我們就很難相信說未來還有更緊密的合作關係嘛所以還是要請院長說明一下故宮在圖像素材資料語言的這些素材上面故宮跟台德接下的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":6313.314,"end":6315.775,"text":"第77案是關於百年願慶的展覽安排還有推廣行銷的業務在這裡我想要稍微提一下因為推廣行銷業務一個很大的重點是明年百年願慶你們一定會有非常多非常精彩的活動甚至有一些"},{"start":6338.268,"end":6352.534,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6352.935,"end":6374.621,"text":"但是我必須要說本席竟然發現其實一直都有人在檢舉說我們的故宮的名義很容易被別人盜用甚至還被盜用完說叫台北故宮叫什麼故宮文物還在各個平台取得藍勾勾"},{"start":6375.481,"end":6398.23,"text":"我在這邊怕院長看不到我們還特別做了一張大張的大家看一下這個是小紅書上面的官方帳號上面寫的是什麼是臺北故宮交流中心還有藍勾勾這只是其中一個案例而已其實還有非常多打著故宮名號的這種所謂的假的"},{"start":6398.59,"end":6399.791,"text":" ﹝竟然說我賣你授權﹞ ﹝竟然說我賣你授權﹞"},{"start":6420.325,"end":6444.676,"text":"我們變這個預算幹嘛所以我是希望故宮這邊是不是可以說明一下既然百年願敬要來了我們要砸重本我們要這個全民一起歡慶那過去的這些這個成就已經存在的這個問題我們是不是大刀固斧的趕快處理一下讓這個百年願敬的benefit可以全部回到我們的故宮身上來這部分是不是可以請院長或相關的人員來回應一下 謝謝"},{"start":6448.604,"end":6474.77,"text":"好 謝謝還沒來委員您先請委員然後下一位主委員我這邊第三幕一案85那我這邊提醒一下謝謝故宮有來溝通相關的這個案子那這邊我要提醒竟然明年要辦100年那故宮來院在2016年9月把那個授手拆掉了那可能有一些原因但現在已經8年了還沒有裝修好"},{"start":6475.33,"end":6502.162,"text":"然後我們的這個故宮男院的那個處長也在2018年來那可能拆掉的時候很早所以你可能不知道這個脈絡但是我昨天其實一直跟你們講個重點故宮不能去剝奪掉大家的一個共同記憶所以這個共同的記憶在你不知道的情況下呢必須要去做一個處理所以如果那12根那個桿子或者是燈座那個你不知道是為什麼而設的"},{"start":6503.643,"end":6503.803,"text":"接下來是﹐"},{"start":6530.797,"end":6547.913,"text":"議員之委員我要講一下就是國民軍委員那個661我非常支持因為那時候我們在質詢的時候也都一直有提到這件事情而且是從今年初一直講到今年尾一整年完全都沒有改善就是同一個帳號在淘寶上面一直存在"},{"start":6548.613,"end":6549.414,"text":"好 謝謝 我們有請故宮來做一個回答"},{"start":6575.034,"end":6604.107,"text":"好,那個問題很多齁,一個一個講齁,就是那個有關那個淘寶跟蘇格王齁,其實他只要上架的話,我們都會去透過那個律師的話或是用溝通的方式讓他們下架,可是下架的話當然沒有錯,他又會上架齁,可是以目前來講的話那個比例越來越少齁,就是說但是下架之後他們還是會上,上我們去申訴的話他又把他下架,下架過一陣子他又上齁,"},{"start":6604.667,"end":6604.687,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":6619.133,"end":6644.448,"text":"徒工作便利的話把那個壓縮檔的工作的話放到那個開放區的話這個部分的話基本上來講的話我們已經處理同仁也懲處當然他也離開了那我們現在是有做一個規範然後讓那個系統的管理人跟那個工作的管理人的話分頭來進行所以嚴禁的話就是把那個圖堂的那個作業的話放到開放區"},{"start":6645.589,"end":6662.295,"text":"議員﹖"},{"start":6663.86,"end":6684.451,"text":"國委員的部分就是台德的部分我想我回去會再跟同仁直接跟台德那邊聯繫就是讓故宮去做故宮應該有的貢獻那故宮現在我們也開始在做AI Ready就是說希望把那個故宮的特定的圖檔把它標示化然後讓他很容易在那個"},{"start":6685.691,"end":6685.711,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":6704.984,"end":6705.004,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":6720.222,"end":6720.242,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":6750.522,"end":6750.542,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":6772.751,"end":6790.321,"text":"那另外的柯志文委員這邊致功的部分致功的部分的確我自己的經驗判斷大概南院的致功因為未來的話是國保館基本上來講要達到300個致功才夠"},{"start":6792.171,"end":6818.702,"text":"蘭月志工南北志工的那個來源的話他有一點點落差因為譬如說我在高美館的時候800個志工那800個志工裡面有分展場志工跟導覽志工基本上來講的話導覽志工要經過一年的展場志工才可以晉升那蘭月的現在故宮的處理方式的話就一進來大家都要當導覽志工可是蘭月的話在審核的時候就是說會有人覺得說蘭月的那個"},{"start":6819.923,"end":6842.824,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6842.964,"end":6868.617,"text":"那那個林倩琦的部分的話就是那個12瘦手是成人拍電影的所有的倒計把它翻通他不是真的顏明元的12瘦手的複製品所以這個部分的話基本上來講有不同的意見因為原來的柱子跟那個那個也不是為了那12個瘦手去處理的原來柱子本來就是12個燈柱然後發現有12個燈柱就擺了12個所以那個比例上來講其實並不是很協調那因為"},{"start":6871.658,"end":6894.886,"text":"這個處理的話是在我上任之前的前前前所以這個部分的話我們再來思考另外一個就是那個志工的那個紀念品那個是大概3、5年前的事情現在並沒有這樣的一個事情什麼過期的業力3、5年前我來了以後沒有我跟你保證"},{"start":6896.496,"end":6916.892,"text":"好 謝謝那我們來處理這個預算數那這一幕呢目前為止我看到凍結數最高的是科振委員的100萬但是後面也有滿多委員大概在500萬那也包括500萬的部分有羅廷偉委員然後還有第三幕第三幕單案凍結數"},{"start":6922.072,"end":6934.867,"text":"我們現在在看最高,最高,我說賀正委員1000嘛。對,所以我們現在看到還有500的,然後包括郭一群委員沒有來,但是他也是說500,葛文君委員500。好,來這一幕,我們大家動多少?是不是就同動1000?好,同動1000萬。"},{"start":6943.945,"end":6961.98,"text":"您代表自己的意見嗎?我只是說我們要一起並動,就是不改組決議。那你講數字就好了,你是並動嘛。那我們一千萬我是覺得,如果院長可以接受的話。好,院長你可以接受嗎?我這邊建議10%,可以吧?10%。什麼的10%?最弱的10%。"},{"start":6972.177,"end":6996.497,"text":"兩千,好,林憲憲委員希望動兩千。那我們就折衷一千萬吧,你不要,院長這五百不可能啊。折衷應該是一千五,兩千加一千。沒關係就一千萬好了,我們把就是第一、第三目,折幕,對。好,那我們趕快快速下一個。折幕一千萬,好。好,下一個。然後那個書面報告並且各委員關心的議題喔,要再更仔細而正確的資料交給各委員。"},{"start":6998.229,"end":7012.98,"text":"接下來我們看一下第四幕。第四幕是文物安全管理與維護。那從第86案到110案。來,各位委員。我們這次從後面好不好。來,吳俊成委員有沒有案子?還是哪位委員先準備好也可以。"},{"start":7015.964,"end":7034.889,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7035.049,"end":7039.171,"text":"議案第107案是南院庫房管理書師,昨天彭處長特別說明,現在2024年,現在我們的院方在做庫房管理,"},{"start":7054.639,"end":7054.899,"text":"謝謝,我們接下來請議員、主委員。"},{"start":7080.136,"end":7098.693,"text":"關於故宮的文物可能因為管理上的一些疏失所以讓大家非常的擔心有的甚至因此破損所以希望故宮可以針對這件事情可以提出一個書面報告然後我們這邊是建議凍結500萬"},{"start":7100.595,"end":7123.403,"text":" ﹝提出報告通過之後就可以動資﹞因為之前我跟院長的答詢都覺得院長不是很在乎這一塊我覺得非常的緊張所以希望能夠這個報告可以寫詳實一點然後另外還有一個是102案102案是人力的部分那之前質詢的時候也有提到就是資品的修護師那只有一位那這個希望能夠增加人力人力也不好找"},{"start":7123.763,"end":7142.295,"text":"議員﹖"},{"start":7143.517,"end":7163.261,"text":"謝謝教委。那本席在這邊提出來是95案。那是這個也是文物安全管理跟修護。那這邊本席連同前面一起說在那個本席謝謝故宮也是這邊有來說明有關於藍青三寶那本席這邊本來是希望能夠文字化所以他在保管保存也會相對比較這個成熟那這個方向請故宮"},{"start":7167.022,"end":7196.937,"text":""},{"start":7198.117,"end":7217.944,"text":"好 接下來我們還有哪位委員 柯智恩委員我這一幕有五案但是我只針對98案來做發言就好因為我還是要非常的關切因為故宮還要進行這個陶瓷器文物典藏的這個科學化管理所以你們訂製了很多鋼製典藏的櫃"},{"start":7218.664,"end":7218.704,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":7241.752,"end":7245.794,"text":"109案5月23日有停電那現在你們在附電的一個緊急發電的過程當中還是有所謂的監視器設備有數分鐘未運作我非常擔憂"},{"start":7260.222,"end":7260.342,"text":" ﹝廣告中﹞"},{"start":7288.015,"end":7296.198,"text":"我的案子是第96案喔也是跟大家一樣關心你們的那個器物典藏跟庫房管理在安全上的改善方案啦"},{"start":7297.058,"end":7324.503,"text":"我之前質詢的時候也要求你們可以跟韓國中央博物館它的比較現代化的管理安全管理方式做一個比較然後提出你們的改進的方向報告那你們已經承諾說你們現在正在進行瓷器的改箱違規那也逐步會把山洞庫房文物移到現代化的庫房那植品器物修復式的工程也在進行中預計年底完成"},{"start":7325.143,"end":7325.563,"text":"另一級委員"},{"start":7345.724,"end":7374.142,"text":"謝謝主席這一幕我總共有三個案子九四案是關心故宮文物的防盜問題上次在教文會口頭上就有提醒過故宮就是說關於文物防盜的問題真的非同小可所以這次再提出來跟大家討論那因為近年來故宮會成為眾人的焦點除了我們舉辦很多人氣的展覽以外"},{"start":7374.923,"end":7391.51,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7391.991,"end":7392.011,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":7407.432,"end":7426.613,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7427.314,"end":7444.229,"text":"關於這個預算提案其實故宮也有來辦公室說明那說典藏庫房密佈高畫質的數位監視器那所以我是想請問是說我們力求無死角的意思是不是仍有死角這個等一下請這個故宮說明一下那"},{"start":7448.012,"end":7471.425,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":7471.505,"end":7497.775,"text":"整個的監視體系那我想這個等一下真的還要請故宮做說明一下那另外101案提出這個案其實就是關心私人文物寄存有可能流亡海外的問題那其實這個是我本席一直一提再提的問題就是板橋林家私人文物寄存的問題那因為我們都沒有追守所謂的故宮"},{"start":7499.155,"end":7526.715,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":7526.835,"end":7554.218,"text":"要去叮嚀這件事情而且要去追蹤這件事情我想這個案子主要是要提醒這件再來是105案105案還是要釐清說故宮究竟有多少的寄存案甚至有帳目不清的文物我覺得這個問題還是要請故宮要好好的釐清究竟有多少的文物不是故宮的所有"},{"start":7555.179,"end":7571.442,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7572.002,"end":7594.907,"text":"據說是用託管的方式進入故宮王世傑的文物據說是寄存可是都沒有定名年限像潘新宇的文物傅新宇的文物既然是託管那產權的釐清有別於寄存請問這個未來要怎麼處理王世傑的寄存文物雖然沒有明定寄存年限今年寄存的家屬有跟故宮聯絡到底聯繫的狀況怎麼樣也請故宮說明"},{"start":7599.208,"end":7612.813,"text":"這個案子其實就是 呃 這個凍結其實就是期待故宮對於這件事情要做積極的處理。以上。好,好,謝謝疫情委員。那接下來我們是疫情委員,然後再秀寶,然後再佩玉。"},{"start":7614.674,"end":7618.337,"text":"這一幕我是86、89及99,我針對86及99來做發言。86案的部分,我想故宮有四個書畫圖書文獻還有器物跟織品四個修復室,但目前人力好像只有16位的文物修復人員。"},{"start":7638.115,"end":7638.135,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":7653.624,"end":7654.345,"text":"第99案的部分,"},{"start":7669.855,"end":7689.554,"text":"姑宮現在典藏70萬件的這個藏品喔那到目前為止好像只進行過三次的大盤點那上一次的盤點已經是民國97年喔那這個盤點完已經101年了將近花了大概將近三年多的一個時間喔那我想呢這個文物如果發生任何的狀況其實都"},{"start":7691.015,"end":7691.035,"text":"秀寶園議員"},{"start":7716.332,"end":7731.53,"text":"謝謝主席在第4幕的部分呢本期的案子是第97案是關於文物安全管理與修復這個部分呢其實從上次損傷文物之後呢故宮博物院這邊又提出了改善違規的這個方案"},{"start":7731.971,"end":7735.334,"text":"在南院則是有導入這個RFID這個文物的管理系統而且在2023年12月就已經完成軟液體的這個開發跟測試那我這邊想知道說我們故宮這邊他北院這邊你們用改箱違規的這個方案呢你們到底進度如何"},{"start":7751.248,"end":7773.643,"text":" 接下來我們南院的這個系統這個文物管理的系統什麼時候可以再引進北院呢讓我們所有的文物的管理我們整個庫房保存的環境能夠做一個比較大的改善以避免就是文物這個損傷呢這樣的事件再發生那在這個部分我提供的金額是100萬那等一下大家可以一起討論以上好謝謝那再來是"},{"start":7777.722,"end":7796.988,"text":"議員,"},{"start":7796.988,"end":7821.34,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":7821.681,"end":7827.103,"text":"第4幕同樣我們大家來並動那凍結的數額有沒有人有什麼想法我們看到現在在這一幕當中凍結的最高數是2000萬還是我們就以2000萬好那如果沒有意見的話第4幕凍結2000萬然後書面報告後我們使得解凍一樣各委員關心的議題拜託故宮要給各委員辦公室書面詳盡的回覆"},{"start":7854.212,"end":7880.348,"text":"那個運行委員,你的86跟99是並動還是組決議?86案跟99案。我可以改成組決議,沒問題。這兩個都改組決議。好,我們接下來進行到第五幕新故宮計畫。那這個新故宮計畫第五幕的部分是111案到133案。那個,我想,因為剛剛我們從後面過來,我們現在從前面再回去,好嗎?來,柯志珍委員。"},{"start":7884.212,"end":7905.648,"text":"好,第五目大概就是113,我還是非常關心新故宮的計畫,因為你電費114年增加這麼多,其實我們之前已經特別提到了政府要節能減碳,那你如果真的是蓋一個玻璃入口亭,你的電費是更加驚人喔而且你外觀玻璃清潔的維護還有費用,還有故宮你有估計未來要增加多少用電數嗎?"},{"start":7907.329,"end":7937.329,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7937.689,"end":7937.729,"text":" ﹝講解中﹞"},{"start":7965.128,"end":7994.036,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":7999.893,"end":8028.625,"text":"謝謝主席我是第120案那120案有三項問題要跟故宮請教一下第一個就是說故宮預計在2026要完成新增文物的庫房工程那在這個之前有什麼樣的文物保存跟維護的規劃還是讓文物持續處在尖尾縮的這個風險之中那第二是書畫庫房的B庫"},{"start":8029.605,"end":8034.788,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國立故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算"},{"start":8051.456,"end":8064.846,"text":"閱讀處的故宮積極辦理這些事項也強化新故宮計畫的各項建設的量能所以其實我只凍結了10萬塊可是真的要監督請你們積極辦理以上好 謝謝那下一位我們請羅廷薇委員"},{"start":8073.902,"end":8089.031,"text":"好,我是116案新故宮這個計畫大家都很關心我直接說我是凍結一千萬那希望能夠把我的遺憶回覆我我們再來做處理謝謝好謝謝那我們接下來林倩琪委員"},{"start":8090.898,"end":8114.948,"text":"在政務裏面是有三案1、2、2、1、2、3、1、2、4那這個都是在於這整個管社的擴建之後還有這個觀光的建置那在跟故宮的這個討論裏面我們也對管社這個部分所提出來的疑義跟內容跟未來的進度那也請故宮這邊後續就如你們所承諾的那把相關的這個計畫提供給我們這邊來做一個瞭解"},{"start":8118.689,"end":8118.869,"text":"下一位紅夢凱委員"},{"start":8138.592,"end":8160.064,"text":"好主席謝謝我是132案喔這一點還是強調就是說在之前故宮這個翠玉白菜有到台南做展覽的時候然後這個簽和相關報告的一個狀況那故宮院長也受訪的時候坦言是有疏失的那一樣就是說翠玉白菜在今年我們會前往再一次的出訪"},{"start":8161.799,"end":8176.051,"text":"國內我們的交流都有這樣的一個舒適我們真的不希望再看到這一次那尤其是2014年所以白在第一次出訪的時候其實我也請各位同仁去看一下2014年那個時候出訪YouTube上都還找得到當時的新聞報導影片"},{"start":8177.432,"end":8197.449,"text":"議員﹖"},{"start":8198.148,"end":8225.265,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8225.425,"end":8225.465,"text":"議員之委員．"},{"start":8244.138,"end":8245.098,"text":"好 謝謝那我們繼續葛國勳來人"},{"start":8277.128,"end":8277.309,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":8282.555,"end":8309.251,"text":"好 謝謝主席我的部分就是那個故宮百年plus的這個事情如果沒有記錯我至少在這件事情上跟故宮溝通過5次而且在質詢台上也一直問但是到故宮到我們辦公室來溝通的時候我真的要說在相關的策展中心意念上還有價值觀上我們真的看不見故宮的想要展現的價值或者是他如何展現在地化、多元化、年輕化、台灣化這件事情"},{"start":8310.171,"end":8325.644,"text":"但是我們看到故宮的預算甚至還編列了一億三千萬那當然院長你有說到你們有相關的展覽可是我們真的看不見了如果這個展覽是你之前在質詢台上說的是以前就已經規劃好的不能亂改但是你又把它放在100plus裡頭我真的看不見這個中間的關係"},{"start":8327.005,"end":8347.039,"text":" ️﹏"},{"start":8347.139,"end":8372.037,"text":"姑宮自己的論述然後也看不見故宮想要展現的態度我真的覺得非常可惜那很多其他黨的委員會提到關於中國觀光客的問題但我更要說其實台灣這幾年吸引非常多泰國、越南、日本、韓國非常多其他國家的觀光客他們對於故宮是有期待是有想像的會想要去看的但是我故宮在照顧國際觀光客跟台灣本地觀光客這件事情上"},{"start":8372.677,"end":8372.857,"text":"謝謝秀寶委員"},{"start":8387.767,"end":8404.249,"text":"在第五幕的這個部分本期的案子是第117案其實我們故宮有近70萬件的館藏非常的豐富但是這個文物的展示率一直有都被檢討包括在預算報告裡面一直也都被提到說文物的展示率太低"},{"start":8404.91,"end":8428.837,"text":"那我們新故宮計畫裡面包括北院院區擴建計畫以及南院二館的這個建築工程裡面我們是不是在這個我們擴建的這個同時我們如何去規劃妥善的這個來規劃展覽的空間來擴大就是可以讓更多的展品可以有一個空間可以來展示來積極的提升這個文物的展示率來保障民眾的這個文化經用權那"},{"start":8430.817,"end":8433.02,"text":"姑公這邊你們有來說明啦你們就說許多圖書啊書籍這個研究性大於這個觀賞性所以故宮會採用用線上開放展覽的這個方式來開放閱覽讓提供民眾來利用那關於這個案子呢我可以不堅持一定要動也可以改組決議"},{"start":8449.457,"end":8469.309,"text":"但是我希望說故宮你們要增加這個具有展覽性的價值的文物的展示率你們如何積極的來規劃我希望給我辦公室一份你們的報告讓我知道說你們對於說大家一直在檢討一直在關心這個文物的展示率這麼低你們自己本身也是有很積極的有一些規劃跟作為以上"},{"start":8470.472,"end":8471.033,"text":"藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":8486.186,"end":8486.266,"text":" ﹝講解中﹞"},{"start":8506.058,"end":8506.579,"text":"第133案,就是說我們看這個"},{"start":8527.424,"end":8527.584,"text":" ﹝講解中﹞"},{"start":8557.945,"end":8558.345,"text":"下一位預刑委員"},{"start":8582.645,"end":8611.349,"text":"議長,在上次質詢的我有特別提到其實要針對這個偏鄉的學校這個希望能夠再積極更擴大那這個部分當然還有就是故宮的這個合作的單位只有三個那希望就是故宮在這個部分可以再拓展更多的合作的一些單位那讓提供更多的這個學校的師生可以來一起參與更多元的一個選擇那這個部分我沒有特別的堅持那等一下看是不是可以用變動的一個方式以上"},{"start":8613.552,"end":8614.373,"text":"請故宮提出的問題重點回答"},{"start":8623.833,"end":8646.008,"text":"議員關心的就是新故宮第一個就是所謂的玻璃屋其實玻璃屋的話是一種大家就把它叫成了叫做玻璃屋其實它的目的就是故宮大家知道就是我們從地下室上次然後到了一樓大廳的時候那個樓梯是非常矮的然後又是售票然後又是那個什麼借耳機啊所以地方"},{"start":8646.408,"end":8673.951,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":8674.301,"end":8701.837,"text":"我們一定會依照臺北市那個文資審議的結果來進行相關的工作。絕對不會說故宮強制要怎麼做。我們會尊重專家學者的意見。那另外的話就是﹗電會的部分我說它是一個輕量體的一個建築。電會的話漏水的話以現在的工法的話基本上來講的話是可以﹖"},{"start":8702.619,"end":8702.639,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":8722.011,"end":8744.062,"text":"不是 不是 不是 不是 不是但是表示說我們對這件事情總是因為60年的建築基本上來講的話也應該做一個大規模的整修包括那個屋頂的slab那個都要處理但是局部的處理的話現在已經沒有辦法了一定要整個打除然後重新做防水層才有辦法一勞永逸"},{"start":8744.65,"end":8767.637,"text":"不好意思,我們的主席請院長來回應我剛剛113案就是希望院長來回應不要這樣呼嚨啦我剛剛說你的漏水問題我現在才知道你跟副院長都住在那邊可以讓重視漏水問題你還是沒解決啊還有你剛剛玻璃停的部分我還是要強調嘛你到底要增加多少的電度數嘛然後你的到底這麼大量停你跟玻璃玻璃之間萬一發生事情你怎麼來填補院長你要根據我剛剛的問題你不要念你已經準備好的問題我剛剛有"},{"start":8771.818,"end":8798.539,"text":"新的問題,你過去的問題好不好?院長,因為你一定要把它說清楚,因為克森委員在這案當中是提案凍結1億喔。建築專業的問題,我沒有辦法這樣就是講說我一定用什麼去填補,因為這是科學建築材料的問題啊,這不是我的可以回答的問題。但是基本上來講的話,所有的審議所有的過程的話,一定是專家協助去處理,然後讓他"},{"start":8800,"end":8800.02,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":8825.014,"end":8825.034,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":8845.07,"end":8864.252,"text":"議長還沒有回答我最在乎的那個,我站在那個位置裡面那個,我不希望你的新故宮到時候蓋出來大家有那麼多的意見,你還是沒有給我那樣的照片,你剛剛提供的照片不是我要的照片。我們會給委員照片,而且我們會把模擬動畫給委員,其實在網站上就可以。"},{"start":8865.213,"end":8886.088,"text":"我沒有看到我沒有看到我要的那個而且我上次提出質詢到現在已經經過這麼多為什麼要我今天要凍結1億院長你才說你在提供給我我覺得這個東西就是最重要就是每次我們這邊質詢完希望能夠給我們一些的立即然後到下位置我們要坐在這個地方要在升減預算的時候你才告訴我未來會給我我覺得這個不是一個態度吧院長是不是"},{"start":8886.508,"end":8899.645,"text":"是,跟委員道歉,那個請同仁就是我們網路連結的那個動畫跟照片的話就直接現在就是給委員現在趕快就是看怎麼樣的管道就傳給委辦"},{"start":8901.499,"end":8923.552,"text":"好,那另外的話就是有一個改相違規的,因為我一併談,改相違規的話基本上它有一個節奏的問題,就是說我要把那個行政大樓,行政大樓的話我們已經抱菌了,我們在12月27號會舉行那個行政新行政大樓的一個落成典禮,我們在這邊我就"},{"start":8924.793,"end":8924.813,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":8941.832,"end":8968.828,"text":"那所以現在的經費的話就是用在做包裝紙盒無栓包裝紙盒那無栓包裝紙盒的話是由同仁設計委託外面的廠商來製作因為我不可能叫同仁去割紙盒在那邊做切割這個東西一定是委外所以經費會放在那邊所以同仁有點大家有點不了解說為什麼那個事情叫委託外面做是做包裝紙盒就無栓紙盒那是我們同仁設計那外面的廠商製作"},{"start":8971.53,"end":8987.54,"text":" 那當然後面的很多的委員的問題我想我是不是可以節省時間的話我們書面來答复那如果是書面答复還不夠清楚的話我們請同仁或是我自己到委辦辦公室去做一個說明。"},{"start":8989.667,"end":9007.398,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9010.792,"end":9039.352,"text":"好,還有121案葛文君委員這邊有一個大概算起來應該是3.5億左右所以葛文君委員有個3.5億左右然後柯正文有一個1億那其餘的在這一幕當中其實11案本席也有提跟大家並動那5%也將近9千萬然後葛文君委員在上這一案也有5千萬那所以各位我們提一個數大家來整幕並動"},{"start":9042.441,"end":9061.131,"text":"現在最高數是葛國勇委員的3億5喔然後柯政委員的1億所以我們要不要提一個數大家來並動沒有先葛國勇委員可以1億謝謝好 那個葛國勇委員說把他改成1億大家有沒有意見院長可以接受嗎"},{"start":9068.052,"end":9096.287,"text":"對,這一句得文了因為基本上委員對這個案子有很多的疑慮所以故宮有一定要有那個怎麼講呢有那個意志要讓委員去了解我們整個計畫的目的就是說不是為了建而建就很簡單就是說我現在一個新任的院長如果我去評估這個沒有必要我為什麼要躺這個粉水呢"},{"start":9096.867,"end":9118.319,"text":"當然就是說我站在一個博物館長期觀察國內外博物館尤其是國際博物館的一個空間規劃那什麼樣可以達到一個好的效果所以我才會接受要不然的話我就不要做就沒事了那當然就是這個一定是我們去評估說對未來故宮的整體發展它是有幫助的第一個"},{"start":9119.36,"end":9143.968,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9144.068,"end":9153.352,"text":"一方面是文職審議,一方面是跟委員這邊在進一步的溝通,然後去了解說為什麼我們要做這個事情。那個國務軍委員先,然後那個還有誰?"},{"start":9161.799,"end":9162.799,"text":"陳培宇委員、柯志恩委員"},{"start":9191.448,"end":9219.095,"text":"我們克茲恩委員剛剛說要一張圖我在質詢的時候也說可不可以給我們一個AR的示意用一些技術或用一種你要傳統的也可以你要那個科技的也可以我們都沒有結果你的影片啦你的圖像啦是放在別的雜誌的某一個角落的QR code我們提醒了你們才說好我們放在某個地方那現在我們做預算質詢我這裡砍了凍結了五分之一你好歹也印一張"},{"start":9219.875,"end":9219.895,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":9239.48,"end":9264.667,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":9265.428,"end":9282.003,"text":"議長剛剛所講的,你說要管線維修,我們絕對支持。但是你要做一個改善,這是一個何等大事。議長,你想如果羅浮宮前面要多一個,把三角形改成方形,把什麼東西再延伸出來。"},{"start":9283.237,"end":9283.257,"text":"委員長﹖"},{"start":9302.082,"end":9315.742,"text":"委員還在講話的時候麻煩你要聽如果你都沒有把問題聽進去你怎麼能夠精準的回答好不好先回答我覺得我們一起講完再來我們陳佩玉委員"},{"start":9318.74,"end":9347.339,"text":"我想要還是要提醒院長剛剛確實這個話聽起來是非常非常消極所以是不是就拜託院長好好說明我想不管執政黨跟在野黨大家真的擔心跟關心的事情方向都是一致的而且我覺得剛剛在這一幕的預算裡面其實應該完全沒有所謂意識形態的問題因為大家知道每次遇到故宮可能就會有一些意識形態的問題但我覺得剛剛聽起來都還好所以是不是就拜託院長我們給你們一些時間仔細說明好不好 謝謝"},{"start":9348.851,"end":9365.921,"text":"好接下來柯志恩委員然後再來雅琳不是院長我還是要特別澄清你現在每次講說你們老舊建築管秀管縣什麼之類大家都這麼愛故宮你如果故宮這些老舊建築這些漏水要來去做一些整修在場沒有一個人會反對"},{"start":9367.122,"end":9369.965,"text":"院長你要聽清楚我剛剛所提到的我剛剛說你的新故宮計畫你若要做這樣的事情你用什麼填補你不要把這個我說的新的故宮跟你舊的這個管線什麼合在一起到時候我這個帽子掛在我頭上柯之恩反對故宮那個整修我承擔不起"},{"start":9386.92,"end":9401.646,"text":"所以院長講話要精準因為我問得很精準我只針對新故宮計畫裡面當中剛剛所說的一個帷幕剛剛我所提到的這些好不好所以大家都請你把這個新故宮計畫"},{"start":9402.526,"end":9427.448,"text":"就故宮的那一些全力配合、全力支持把話聽清楚再給我精準的回應好,謝謝克珍委員那我們接著請雅琳委員好,我想就是我也是想要呼應一下前面委員講的就是故宮院長畢竟我們大家都是成年人啦我們今天就是就事論事來把這件事情討論清楚啦那我覺得不要用一些意氣用事的語言好,因為我想剛剛格魯金委員說他坎伊"},{"start":9427.688,"end":9446.954,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":9448.356,"end":9467.881,"text":"好 謝謝我想那個院長可能還要再精準回答一下不過我院長我想你今天在答這個回覆的時候你看不管是執政黨的委員在野黨的委員大家都覺得真的不要意氣用事真的不要消極的態度所以我想你等一下答詢的時候我希望你能夠精準一點好嗎好那個基本上來講的話就是我"},{"start":9473.865,"end":9500.708,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":9501.596,"end":9521.903,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":9521.963,"end":9521.983,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":9537.824,"end":9538.384,"text":"委員長麻煩你一下尊重主席好不好"},{"start":9562.632,"end":9589.812,"text":"請把他關起來好嗎 這個是誰放的那個委員沒有同意對不起 請先尊重一下主席好不好 院長主席 對 對不起 這個是誰放的主席沒有同意 不能晃我們看過啊 主要的啊 是我剛剛講過了 不可以這樣算 這樣是干擾我們的審查預算啊對不起 如果院長自己就已經說過 這就是一個模擬圖 模擬 第一個模擬有什麼好看的 第二個呢 也不是在審查預算的時候才要把這個圖 現在做這麼粗糙的交代嘛"},{"start":9590.572,"end":9592.573,"text":"我們請設計團隊把所有的不同面向的模擬圖就是仰視、俯視、測試的模擬圖都給委員。"},{"start":9624.143,"end":9647.885,"text":"因為我們已經討...好...那...那...發言委員我想這個百年喔新故宮計畫大家其實一定是期待很高啦那這個故宮一定要準備好喔然後前前後後都一致然後向社會大眾說明嘛那因為剛剛院長還講到說好像聽起來就是說如果是院長來設計會有點不一樣是這個意思嗎我有沒有聽錯"},{"start":9652.033,"end":9675.079,"text":"這個見仁見智因為對整個空間的話可能我會做更大的改變但是因為它具有文資身份因為在國外的話新的博物館在處理的時候大破大裂基本上來講的話是超越這樣的尺度啦但是以目前來講的話我來了以後這個案子已經滑包而且進行到審議的一個階段所以我不太容易把它重新來過"},{"start":9676.38,"end":9677.841,"text":"因為這樣包括預算都要重新來過。"},{"start":9693.013,"end":9711.112,"text":"對 我們直接處理了因為大家意見表述很清楚但主席在這邊我覺得嚴正的跟那個故宮講第一個我覺得你要遵守我們在這裡審查預算的這些規則跟原則那也要尊重主席在這裡主持這個議事因為不管是誰都有可能坐在這個位置"},{"start":9711.753,"end":9734.736,"text":"您怎麼可以這麼自意?您想怎麼改變我們今天審查的流程就去改變?那到底是為什麼可以就這樣去放影片?而他在放影片的時候,其實院長您正在答詢我們每個委員的問題。那你要我們到底是要聽你的還是要看影片?第二個,你這個影片其實我們很多委員也看過。看過之後大家有意見,所以在說預算案的時候才把它提出來。"},{"start":9735.436,"end":9764.648,"text":"所以你再拿這個以前就看過的東西來做這個預算案的說明這個說明根本就是多餘的那最後我想喔就是論事我們在這裡審查預算特別是教育文化委員會其實大家陳委員剛剛講得很好今天所有的委員發言大家沒有意識形態都在討論這個到底這個預算可不可以發揮到你們想像的效益或者是我們擔心的問題會發生所以我們好好的來討論不要再有這個情緒性啦或者是顧著用而言他"},{"start":9765.208,"end":9765.228,"text":"閱讀者﹚"},{"start":9787.568,"end":9814.906,"text":"議員﹚議員﹚"},{"start":9815.492,"end":9844.376,"text":"不是,那個117案是要改組決議嗎?還是就並動就好了?改組決議是不是?好。117改組決議。1、1、2、6誰的案?1、2、6雅琳的案子。主決議。改組決議。好。好,接下來我們進入到,喔,組決議的部分整理好了嗎?還有剛剛後面的呢?"},{"start":9845.953,"end":9848.655,"text":"134案到136案修正文字以後修正通過137案到138案照案通過139案到144案文字修正後修正通過"},{"start":9862.828,"end":9880.194,"text":"一百四十五案到一百五十案照案通過一百五十一案文字修正之後照修正通過一百五十二案到一百五十八案照案通過一百五十九案修正文字後修正通過一百六十案到一百六十四案照案通過好那我們繼續我們接下來來審查故宮文物藝術發展基金"},{"start":9892.978,"end":9893.478,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9937.514,"end":9944.024,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管故宮文物藝術"},{"start":9950.251,"end":9959.361,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9972.134,"end":9984.084,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國立故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9997.154,"end":10007.585,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國立故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":10026.187,"end":10050.106,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院"},{"start":10054.974,"end":10056.613,"text":"議員﹖"},{"start":10058.26,"end":10074.804,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管公務員單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管公務員單位預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管公務員單位預算案"},{"start":10085.247,"end":10107.125,"text":"議員﹚議員﹚議員﹚"},{"start":10107.925,"end":10123.855,"text":"我講到這裏,如果是...那天我跟妳抱歉,因為我們辦公室在京東最近,所以開會的時間很多,所以那天我們已經講好就不接電話,要趕快開會,因為我們人能抱歉,我又被假凍,所以就沒有辦法跟妳報名,我就不知道..."},{"start":10129.398,"end":10143.545,"text":"對,那因為據說接下來運動員不出單位的話,我們應該總部會有預算案。我知道啦。所以我想你那個高清台現場沒有人訪問的方向,我覺得你應該去訪問一些,然後到時候專案報告,你再重新整理再處罰好。因為基本上我現在都不看了。"},{"start":10151.028,"end":10165.397,"text":"議員那你不然不如就重新出發嗎?是沒有這個意見嗎?好不好?議員因為因為因為一定一定一定我們全部就後才會做的。要不然呢我不是教育我就說那為什麼要不做這件事情。議員可是那邊長長說跟前面的這個基本都一樣的問題在那裡?"},{"start":10170.06,"end":10188.431,"text":"我的看法我會更大,我會更加努力。但是,當然大家都知道,更大無數中央的這個爭議會更大,因為我覺得故宮竟然是人性的指揮官,所以要把這個無障礙無障礙的凍結,無障礙的凍結。那這樣子凍結再出發我們民主的意見,好不好?好不好,不准新任總,總幹部總幹部。"},{"start":10218.469,"end":10222.81,"text":"好 來我們各位委員還有故宮的同仁我們再繼續喔"},{"start":10226.311,"end":10240.279,"text":"接下來我們再來這個繼續基金那個大家可能就先就座一下好我們來審基金從總收入的部分開始審查來我們有請柯智源委員"},{"start":10242.179,"end":10269.902,"text":"不好意思這個基金基金的話我就是第一案跟第四案我們在總收入的部分還是一樣因為大家都非常喜歡故宮的文創然後這個熱銷帶來很多的銷貨成績那又是百年願慶所以我們當然希望這個積極催出百年願慶的紀念品然後可以促進故宮的行銷所以我認為故宮的實力應該是可以增加五千萬這是我提出來至於金額多少我們可以請院長或是相同同仁再來"},{"start":10271.003,"end":10285.491,"text":"第四案同樣也是一樣啊因為你們故宮在114年你其他業務收入你編列的620萬嘛等等之類的但是呢我覺得因為你114年的權利金是以113年度的銀額預估嘛你那時候是以那個3100萬的5%來計算但是你沒有根據實際人數參觀人數來增加你的這個"},{"start":10297.698,"end":10297.858,"text":"閱议委員．﹖"},{"start":10321.732,"end":10336.732,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":10337.192,"end":10353.667,"text":"我先稍微說明一下我是非常支持故宮在文創、文物保存還有一些相關的商品的創意我想過去都有很不錯的成績那包含甚至有結合數位的有NFT、有這個動物森友會作為阿宅我也是非常認可"},{"start":10354.428,"end":10376.101,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10376.221,"end":10399.692,"text":"才剛上架啦,盜版就已經買得到,而且人家還給你改字。我先講我們是支持兩岸的交流,但是不是這種交流。就是說我們其實是支持交流的立場,但是我也不支持有人把故宮改名,然後去改,然後還盜版,去賣這個盜版的桌立。"},{"start":10400.892,"end":10415.469,"text":"當然這些平台各位不一定容易的去查緝管理但故宮的態度要做出來你們一定要到處要去講對於這種盜版的對於這種假授權的就是詐騙"},{"start":10416.75,"end":10437.152,"text":"你們是絕對勢不兩立,你們如果自己就是很消極的,你們自己也沒在抓、沒在查,也不去對外去講,那就是越演越烈嘛,大家看到有利可圖,因為故宮名這麼好,你們做了這麼努力,所以我想這個部分希望能夠再增烈,就是你們要對自己有信心,謝謝。"},{"start":10437.773,"end":10438.033,"text":"下一位培育委員"},{"start":10452.877,"end":10473.776,"text":"謝謝主席這個本期在這邊呢增列的是一千萬喔因為我是希望說真的故宮和你們這邊要更積極對你們來開發更多有創意的一些大眾會願意願意去購買去正常的這樣文創商品尤其明年就剛好是我們的百年願慶那我們也編列了系列活動的經費形象的經費"},{"start":10474.577,"end":10500.505,"text":"所以我們是不是應該更積極來開發這樣子一些限量的文宣的商品也符合就是說我們一些民眾我們民眾去到故宮去遊玩參加這個百年的這個願慶的時候同時他有一個做紀念那如果你們沒有對這個更積極我覺得說其實民眾反而會覺得很失望說到底你們願 百年願慶你們做了什麼準備你們開發了什麼這個部分呢我很堅持一定要增列啦"},{"start":10500.765,"end":10501.126,"text":"議員,我們先來回覆一下。"},{"start":10516.398,"end":10535.552,"text":"謝謝葛委員 這個所謂的中國台北故宮文創基本上來講的話的確這個是一個抄襲的案子這是抄我們今年的那個作例那他把我們那個百年的logo的話也都抄了所以這個部分的話我們會行使法律的權利我們會去追查"},{"start":10536.633,"end":10544.708,"text":" ﹗ 基本上來講只要發現有道名或是說有混淆的話我們都會透過兩岸的律師去進行法律行動這個我們一定會處理"},{"start":10551.547,"end":10551.687,"text":"主席"},{"start":10579.048,"end":10579.349,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10596.972,"end":10597.792,"text":"議長,你說爭略多少,你會比較有把握?"},{"start":10621.233,"end":10626.778,"text":"一千可以嗎?每個人都說一千。那個柯政委員跟葛瑞文委員。葛瑞文委員。"},{"start":10632.372,"end":10658.056,"text":"因為我實在太喜歡故宮了對我也真的是非常認為故宮是絕對是可以再就把我們剛剛講到這些問題都處理一下把本來該賺的都拿回來然後再用一些文化創意我們之前有這個文化部的這個預算小野部長就是很會就是你該做的是用創意去做跟麵粉多少也是可以脫鉤的啦不是沒有麵粉啦麵粉少一點"},{"start":10658.456,"end":10677.363,"text":"議員．﹖"},{"start":10678.488,"end":10707.828,"text":"委員長,因為如果照這個比例的話,其實它2500萬大概要2000萬元的一個支出要相對的去編列。所以我們是蠻擔心就是說這樣的一個編列的方式會讓我們的預算失真。那我還是看能不能徵求委員的同意1000萬。那另外一個剛有提到商品的部分,那如果委員主席同意的話,我這邊有一些,因為委員一直在關心商品,那在拜訪委員的過程中,他有希望我們提出一些商品的sample這樣子讓委員過目一下。請示如果可以的話,我就稍微展示一下可以嗎?"},{"start":10708.888,"end":10735.64,"text":"沒關係不用了我想這樣子吧這個大家都是對於這個故宮非常的喜愛也覺得很肯定所以我們希望能夠增列那不然我們就是在這一幕當中總收入的部分總收入我們增列2000萬好 謝謝那接下來我們進行到總支出的部分那這個案子是從第6案那到第15案那我們從後面的委員開始起"},{"start":10737.5,"end":10764.591,"text":"我們從後面的委員開始陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員完成秀寶委員再往前好 謝謝主席我們提的其實是關於文創商品的部分我們仔細看過那個預算那當然後來有跟故宮溝通過我們有提到關於中國製的部分我們還是希望透過分潤機制可以鼓勵廠商盡量在台灣製造這件事情我們覺得非常重要可是後續故宮有些說明我們還是覺得怪怪的這樣還是要請故宮加油"},{"start":10765.291,"end":10793.703,"text":"另外根據我們跟故宮所知的內容有一件事情到現在我們還是沒有答案就是故宮這幾年文創商品的產製跟銷售數量完全沒有合可是為什麼故宮預算報告裡面呢把製造跟銷售數字寫得一模一樣我覺得就連經營之神應該也做不到吧但是不知道為什麼故宮他們覺得可以這樣寫那關於這個部分我想我沒有堅持我還是要聽聽看故宮人員的說明好以上謝謝"},{"start":10796.108,"end":10811.543,"text":"秀寶委員秀主席本期在這個部分是第7個案子第7個案子我提供的金額是300萬其實主要是我在質詢的時候就有講過根據故宮自己的調查在112年度去的遊客滿意度意見調查裡面對於禮品價格的滿意度是所有的項目裡面最低的只有57.4%"},{"start":10820.311,"end":10846.012,"text":" ﹏所以我在質詢的時候也跟故宮討論過我們會希望說你們要針對不同的群眾來調整你們文創商品的品項以及價格讓不同的這些目標的群眾他們有興趣而且願意購買的文創商品那故宮雖然你們有來說明就是說你們會願意鼓勵廠商開發不同的價格區間的商品我是覺得說真的你們要開發符合"},{"start":10847.913,"end":10848.453,"text":" ﹝提供的金額﹞"},{"start":10870.936,"end":10887.811,"text":"然後那個葛如君委員我的提案是第八案那我們有看到故宮文物藝術發展基金決算及會計月報裡面的這個資料有說文化創意衍生商品其實表現還是不俗這一點還是予以肯定但出版品的部分呢從109年度到"},{"start":10890.614,"end":10912.088,"text":" »:113年度可以說是節節下降銷售的數量從109年度的21萬本測到113年度是6萬本測當然是截止到10月底或11月底但這個數量看起來可能也是達不到去年標準或至少來說還是就是下降的銷售金額也是下降的現在是1700萬"},{"start":10913.849,"end":10939.082,"text":"所以我想這個故宮出版品的銷售量逐漸下降那不是故宮的商品然後呢這近五年來也只出版過15本童書平均一年三本我們還發現說你們有特地到義大利去考察童書展齁這個其實我知道也有很多執政黨的委員對童書展或者書展都很有專業這個我先不多說但是我覺得這個出版品的這個做法"},{"start":10939.722,"end":10940.903,"text":"謝謝,我們再往前還有哪一位委員?紅夢凱委員"},{"start":10962.479,"end":10986.536,"text":"我簡單說明一下我是第9案跟第12案但是overall還是一樣跟剛剛的這個稅路委員所提出來的一個概念就還是希望說故宮能夠來加強我們的行銷宣傳的一個部分那尤其是過去到現在其實很多國人都對於說故宮有一些文創商品其實都非常期待但近年來確實沒有亮點"},{"start":10987.376,"end":11011.566,"text":"我們上一次在詢問院長的時候院長也講到說比較這種中規中矩的但是還沒有辦法有這種耳目一新的一個部分那再加上明年就是100年所以說我們還是希望是說故宮能夠來加強這樣的一個文創商品的一個規劃跟設計那另外第12案裡面我有提到就是說我們現在跟那個博物館的這個"},{"start":11013.047,"end":11024.398,"text":" ﹗ 商城服務是委由台灣售網網路娛樂公司﹗ 那所以換言之不是台灣售網的,其實在網路上販賣的就不是這屬於這個我們的一個授權商品嗎?"},{"start":11024.974,"end":11046.169,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11046.169,"end":11068.814,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11068.968,"end":11093.029,"text":" ️﹏﹏"},{"start":11093.109,"end":11121.662,"text":"沒有授權大量比較便宜的去傾銷這兩個完全不同的邏輯那如果說屬於後者的話那可能是有違法之餘所以請故宮要要求好我還是要提醒一下因為像基金基金通常都是一個單位的小金庫所以我們今天就要審查這個是看看你所用的錢到底符不符合你基金的所需你調出故宮的這個藝術發展基金講得非常的清楚嘛"},{"start":11122.703,"end":11137.395,"text":"出版品、複製、仿製文物還有最重要是藝術紀念品的開發跟銷售文物的收購等等這是基金我們要先搞清楚它的宗旨所以本期這一次在第10案跟第15案其實我都在講"},{"start":11138.215,"end":11161.481,"text":"舉例來說第10案你有這個業務費用是旅運費其實旅運費為什麼要放在基金而不是放在他應該是放在公務預算當中那同理在第15案的地方也是你看他在第15案的地方嗎他這個地方裡面你還要去分攤北院院區的環境清潔維護費而且你編列的外包費用是1095萬你還要分攤南院的環境清潔費"},{"start":11167.922,"end":11183.565,"text":"這些不是都應該所謂的院區的清潔費都是要由公務預算來支出嗎?而且我說實在的因為你這個基金上面有提到你要賣東西嘛,你要銷售嘛所以你分擔水電啊、機電、勞務人員這應該是還勉強在這個所謂基金管理的總務費要勉強說得過去但是院區裡面的清潔、維護、支出跟你基金你看一下、對一下這個項目不太符合吧?這是要把它釐定清楚"},{"start":11197.327,"end":11210.234,"text":" ️所以我才因為不是不支持而是你的編列的方式我有疑義,所以我才會來做出這樣的一個簡略。好,以上我們請故宮院長來做說明一下。那個科文第15項的部分,就是那個基本維護費用,就成為我剛剛講的水電費,因為水電費不足。"},{"start":11224.113,"end":11238.865,"text":"我用麥克風講水電沒有問題我現在直指清潔院區的清潔費這是公務預算基金哇塞你要是基金都用這個東西到時候故宮的基金像那個勞動部的就業安定基金你承擔不起"},{"start":11240.409,"end":11265.28,"text":"這個部分的話我請同仁就是未來的話我們要把它理清清楚那另外的話有關那個禮運會的部分禮運會的部分的話基金有一個出國要去波隆納那在基金裡面的話比如說我們參加書展參加那個文創展參加各種相關的展覽就是有銷售行為的話這個支出的話都是從基金這邊支出"},{"start":11265.8,"end":11265.82,"text":" ﹝請勿模擬﹞"},{"start":11287.045,"end":11310.048,"text":"那個報告我是主計事主任林美洋我想要就是回答那個柯委員的所謂說基金為什麼要分攤那個清潔費那因為我們的商店都是附設在我們的院區裡面那我們這些外包的清潔也有含商店的清潔的部分對那我們往年都"},{"start":11311.489,"end":11313.871,"text":"所以都說明完畢了嗎?報告郵件還沒出來我可以補充"},{"start":11342.452,"end":11362.358,"text":"議員提到的結帳數量是一樣的,因為我們是用寄賣的方式。所以說授權的商品,我們每個月一賣完,隔個月就把商品的成本就結給廠商。所以說這個數量會一樣的,這初步說明。另外一個,紅夢凱委員有提到,因為我們故宮"},{"start":11362.858,"end":11391.084,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11391.084,"end":11409.957,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11412.415,"end":11433.549,"text":"委員會提到的出版品的部分,確實我們這部分在這幾年我們是因為配合那個院區的一個展覽的一個數量的一個出版品自己本身的出版品其實一直有在努力的在延益增加但是我們覺得不夠就是說我們希望說透過院外的出版授權的一個廠商一起來合作所以才會有提到剛剛有一些"},{"start":11433.968,"end":11443.729,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏"},{"start":11445.558,"end":11445.958,"text":"總支出提案"},{"start":11466.718,"end":11484.533,"text":"我可不可以請問一下因為我有檢列1500萬我知道你們剛剛說我剛剛為什麼檢列旅遊是你院區的清潔那你說商店也需要清潔你商店應該不需要1500萬吧你不需要清潔費不用1500萬吧商店的清潔院區不需要1500萬吧"},{"start":11486.749,"end":11494.671,"text":"我只強調很多費用是公務支出不是在基金要特別是像基金太多人在關注所以每一筆費用的項目你一定要非常的清楚好不好好所以我先處理一下那簡略的部分現在要處理嗎"},{"start":11518.567,"end":11532.469,"text":"如果我還是為了故宮好那你們你們我也不曉得他給我的理由我可不可以接受因為看起來我就認為該公務支出的就應該公務基金支出的就應該基金啊可是我也沒看到你的報告到底是是如何"},{"start":11535.038,"end":11560.505,"text":"我們在編列預算過程都有詳細的一個...不會啊我也是看了你的預算我才提出這個意思啊你上面就寫一個院區清潔維護費啊你寫院區清潔維護費當然屬於公務預算當然不應該屬於基金啊所以當然是這樣子啊因為我們基金是附設在商店內那人因為有門票收入增加我跟著我的銷貨收入他如果有去商店買東西的時候他也會增加所以你的清潔費還是需要1500萬啊"},{"start":11564.586,"end":11587.595,"text":"1500萬應該不是走基金的清潔費啦。應該是全部三個吧。不是因為有科目的問題嗎?不是因為我有沒有科目講,就是因為這個是有就是編列啦齁,到底在公務預算還是基金的部分。所以這個可能沒有辦法在這裡啊齁,去說我們是要減1500萬勒還是要減500勒,所以是不是要先弄清楚這個部分?"},{"start":11589.821,"end":11611.203,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":11611.263,"end":11625.868,"text":"好,那柯委員也同意,那我們就來處理。所以在這一個總支出的部分,整個凍結案應該現在數的最高的是在國務軍委員的1 10分之1 960萬,對不對?還有嗎?對,其他的有300多的,5%、200多的,對。好,那就是國務院委員?"},{"start":11646.012,"end":11665.417,"text":"這邊我可以看這個紅紅卡委員是5%他現在不在齁那我可以稍微減少啦那不然在這個地方的話我想綜合大家一下我們凍結500萬好不好然後一樣就是書面報告之後那我們就可以來做解凍以上"},{"start":11670.951,"end":11687.322,"text":"我們後面還有16案到20案。那16、17、18、19、20的部分都該組決議。我們照案通過。好,主席都在宣告,剛才的86案,預算案的86案、99案、117案、126案,我們照案通過。"},{"start":11697.915,"end":11723.613,"text":"好,報告委員會今天的審查結果免於重複宣讀在不影響文藝前提下授權議事人員一114年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商之範例整理列入記錄關於今天會議作成如下決定114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案全部審查完畢"},{"start":11724.874,"end":11727.935,"text":"華國委員會今天的議程處理完畢,現在休息。謝謝各位。"},{"start":11751.561,"end":11779.155,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11779.155,"end":11804.957,"text":"議員﹚議員﹚議員﹚"}]}},{"id":"16380","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16380","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db2d34adc683ae39a1d6a76734f739918278081dad70f87c46ea1b346394a7a4c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、農業特別收入基金及信託基金部分：農民退休基金。(處理) 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農業部主管第一項 農業部原列1152億5252萬元 檢列媒體政策及業務選導費300萬元 第二部一般行政200萬元 第三部農業管理2000萬元 以上科目自行調整 供給檢列2500萬元 取均照列改列為1152億2752萬元"},{"start":2479.164,"end":2484.109,"text":"本項通過決議69項第二項林業及自然保育署及所屬108,717萬7千元照列"},{"start":2489.98,"end":2509.375,"text":"本項通過決議九項第三項農村發展及水土保持署及所屬八十一億四千四百二十六萬兩千元照列本項通過決議八項第四項農業事業所及所屬十二億四千四百七十六萬元照列第五項林業事業所八億三千零一十八萬八千元照列本項通過決議一項"},{"start":2511.428,"end":2516.552,"text":"第6項水產試驗所7億8947萬8千元．第7項蓄產試驗所及所屬8億2613萬元．第8項受益研究所4億9004千元．第9項農業藥物試驗所6億3182萬4千元．第10項生物多樣性研究所2億7361萬3千元．第11項查解飲料作物改良廠2億．"},{"start":2538.951,"end":2544.616,"text":"6,433萬4千元,第12項總苗改良繁殖場2億2475萬2千元,第13項苗栗區農改場2億8332萬9千元,第14項苗栗區農改場2億2883萬2千元,第15項臺中區農改場2億9302萬4千元,第16項海南區"},{"start":2562.613,"end":2591.508,"text":"農業改良廠兩億九千九百四十六萬五千元第17項高雄區農業改良廠兩億五千七百一十二萬九千元第18項花蓮區農改廠兩億五千七百一十二萬一千元第19項臺東區農業改良廠一億八千三百四十九萬元第20項漁業屬及所屬八十八億兩千九百四十七萬八千元第21項動植物防疫檢疫屬及所屬二十六億五千兩百零三萬五千元以上均照列"},{"start":2592.827,"end":2598.772,"text":"本項第21項通過決議12項第22項農業金融屬6億5498萬4千元照列本項通過決議7項第23項農糧屬及所屬52億5792萬1千元照列本項通過決議11項第24項農田水利屬元月99億1759"},{"start":2617.788,"end":2627.918,"text":"179,000元除第5目非營業特種基金39亿4880万元暫照列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整外區域均照列本項通過決議9項第25項農業科技園區管理中心9亿8152萬7千元照列"},{"start":2635.984,"end":2655.578,"text":"本項通過決議兩項有關政事別輸出預算水土穩上機關別審查結果調整繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管．非營業部分．農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金決議令定期繼續審查"},{"start":2657.88,"end":2668.31,"text":"113年12月5日新決事討論事項一繼續審查114年中央政府總預算案關於行政稅務預算第五款第一項第二目際國家發展委員會及所屬單位預算部分決議"},{"start":2670.148,"end":2686.497,"text":"一稅入部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第十項國家發展委員會無列數第十一項檔案管理局一萬元照列第三款規費收入第七項檔案管理局一百零三萬一千元照列第四款財產收入第十一項國家發展委員會六百三四萬六千元第十二項"},{"start":2688.718,"end":2703.666,"text":"檔案管理局461,000元以上均照列第5款營業逾10月收入第一項行政院第二模非營業特種基金剩餘繳庫無劣數第7款其他收入第10項國家發展委員會143.7萬元第12項檔案管理局208,000元以上均照列"},{"start":2704.586,"end":2721.694,"text":"稅出部分第二款行政院主管第6項國家發展委員會原列36億3316萬2千元除第12目非營業特種基金9億元暫照列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行條整換檢列媒體政策及業務選導費300萬元取經照列改列為36億3016萬2千元本項通貨決議事實項第7項檔案管理局10億9263萬6千元照列"},{"start":2732.318,"end":2747.263,"text":"本項通過決議兩項,三有關政事別、稅務預算、協同機關別審查結果調整,二繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管、行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、跨國地區永續發展基金及促進軟營正義決議。"},{"start":2749.364,"end":2761.924,"text":"假行政院主管：作業基金使用國家發展基金：業務計劃因預計業務收支轉投資固定資產資源設改然後擴充其資金運用等向之審查結果隨從調整。 二業務收支一業務總收入310億6728萬元"},{"start":2765.711,"end":2766.251,"text":"2.業務總支出58億7,928萬2千元3."},{"start":2766.251,"end":2767.212,"text":"本期剩餘245億8,799萬8千元以上均照列3."},{"start":2767.212,"end":2767.572,"text":"結繳工戶無劣數4."},{"start":2767.572,"end":2767.972,"text":"轉投資計畫無劣數5."},{"start":2767.972,"end":2769.933,"text":"固定資產及建設改良擴充5,750萬4千元照列6."},{"start":2769.933,"end":2770.613,"text":"國庫申報基金為無劣數通過決議18項2."},{"start":2770.613,"end":2771.954,"text":"特別收入基金離島建設基金業務計畫因應"},{"start":2789.302,"end":2816.942,"text":"資金來源與用途審查結果隨通調整二基金來源用途及餘處一基金來源9101469000元二基金用途9103599000元三本期短處213萬元以上捐造列結繳工庫列數四透過決議三項三特別收入基金花農地區永續發展基金一業務計畫依據基金來源用途審查結果隨通調整二基金來源用途及餘處一基金來源600萬元二基金用途28億"},{"start":2819.485,"end":2829.682,"text":"8144萬4千元本期短促28億7544萬4千元以上均照列結繳公庫列數通過決議一項特別收入基金促進轉型正義基金"},{"start":2831.014,"end":2856.956,"text":"一、業務計畫應據基金來源與用途審查結果隨中調整二、基金來源用途給予一處一、基金來源簽名38萬元二、基金用途1億5千367萬5千元三、本期短處8千329萬5千元以上均照列三、截角工庫列數四、通過決議四項散會宣讀完畢好,請問在常委員上市會議數有錯誤"},{"start":2859.46,"end":2881.769,"text":"沒有,我們確定依次錄依次錄確定現在進行討論事項請宣讀繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管．非營業部分．農業作業基金．農田水利事業作業基金．農業特別收入基金及信託基金部分．農民退休基金今日處理宣讀完畢"},{"start":2883.493,"end":2910.309,"text":"好 這個有關於農業部主管的非營業基金預算於11月18日第10次會議詢答結束並於12月4日第19次會議將審查項目與委員提案宣讀完畢我們今天依序進行農業部非營業基金的預算協商好 我們先進行114年度農業作業基金來 立案"},{"start":2911.778,"end":2926.961,"text":"議案,因為收入提案委員不在,我們照列。第二案、第三案,必案處理。呃,政政前委員有沒有意見?好,政委員。呃,針對第二案部分的話,因為那個農業部的沒宣費,其實本來就是大家一直都長期存在一些問題。"},{"start":2927.962,"end":2953.923,"text":"我們本來之前就都很關注到那我發現農業作業基金在明年預算裡面沒有編埋宣費可是編推展費金額雖然不大可是比112年的決算數多了70%所以之前請他們來做說明的時候其實說明的非常的不清楚那他們補資料他們也都沒有補資料那到今天為止的時候都還沒有補任何資料進來所以我希望主張這個案子的時候能夠檢定40萬元謝謝以上"},{"start":2956.724,"end":2957.024,"text":"農業部署名"},{"start":2977.83,"end":2994.649,"text":"針對我們的試驗單位所屬試驗單位賣種子的時候的一個宣導他跟媒體的那個宣導是不一樣的所以我們希望說因為這個項目針對讓農民知道我們的新的品種然後去推動這是很重要的希望能夠免疫檢列"},{"start":2995.43,"end":3024.513,"text":"好 賴立榮我是建議 因為剛剛也說明很清楚這是新的品種的一個宣導那我認為這個也非常重要包括種子那我希望說能不能政委員能夠不要刪減那如果真的還是那個話要不然就用凍結的方式給他們提順便說明的方式不要影響到這個這個這個種子跟一些推廣的一些工作好不好好 聖地飛謝謝齁但是剛剛政委員說你們都沒有給他資料是什麼一回事啊"},{"start":3025.856,"end":3049.622,"text":"114年有給有給資料到辦公室去有給到辦公室所以有沒有有說明沒有給喔沒有給沒有給沒有給我們11月2月9號過來講的時候我們有要求提出說明那你們當時說明的很簡要因為金額不大可是我們要求提部細部的時候並附上今年到11月的執行的狀態那到目前為止也都還沒有給"},{"start":3050.888,"end":3076.516,"text":"你會把那一份資料給鄭委員啦對啊 給鄭委員啦 直接給鄭委員啦給人看一下好不好對啊 因為人家要資料給人家人家要閃你也剛剛好欸現在你們手邊的說明資料就提供給鄭委員了好不好這個委員要求資料說明你們這個要務必要確實因為這個錢其實不多但是那是"},{"start":3077.745,"end":3080.584,"text":"你說明沒有說明清楚人家當然要砍你阿"},{"start":3082.199,"end":3089.884,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":3117.703,"end":3138.296,"text":"第2個案服務費跟推廣費我們凍結20萬提出書本報告之後使人動之第4案提案委員不在照例第5案第6案謝一鳳跟陳廷飛第5案的部分委員以同意改組決議好謝一鳳委員改組決議那廷飛呢"},{"start":3140.084,"end":3166.702,"text":"這個部分我想我要了解的是說我們現在在整個產品之後然後我們是比上年度預算減少了為什麼?為什麼減少?委員是指哪一部分?對不起對啊那個啊續產的部分啊就是這個生產續出跟改良改良市值產品成本"},{"start":3168.37,"end":3182.122,"text":"整個在生產量的部分因為考慮到在整個跟我們契約廠商的合約的部分我們需要做一些這個調整對啊 調整怎麼可能是越少"},{"start":3183.157,"end":3188.104,"text":"是因為數量嗎?那為什麼數量你們算出來是這個樣子?你們的關鍵在哪裡?我只是希望說你們減少的關鍵在哪裡?減少是減少在哪裡?"},{"start":3198.818,"end":3223.204,"text":"就是在產量的部分因為在這個2025年的在整個乳品上面可能會比較生產量可能會比較多所以我們在做一些這個調整面上面就希望不要生產過量造成沒辦法賣出去大概是這樣的考量很奇怪啊"},{"start":3224.431,"end":3228.077,"text":"這個就是在說2025我們面對現在因為台紐經濟合作協定你們因為這樣子預估減少對不對你們希望是減少啦"},{"start":3238.57,"end":3261.056,"text":"是不是?你們希望產量是減少的所以我們現在有淘汰乳牛的部分對不對?你們是這樣子期待這樣減少可是實際上是這樣嗎?而且現在你們所有的通盤的一些計畫也並沒有出來啊是可以像你們預期這樣嗎?你們想要這麼容易嗎?我不這樣認為"},{"start":3268.608,"end":3275.621,"text":"你們想得很美好依照你們美好的處理方式跟思考方式但是是這樣嗎?"},{"start":3277.937,"end":3281.698,"text":"作業基金基本上不是純粹爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了爲了"},{"start":3305.311,"end":3327.132,"text":"當然你們有解釋我現在只有問說2025面對台紐經濟合作協定裡面這樣的一個因素紐西蘭他的乳品要進來你們都準備好了嗎?你們對於這些續產業的這些問題你們都已經做好準備了嗎?都能夠因應了嗎?"},{"start":3328.995,"end":3347.306,"text":"這個部分我想容我跟委員說明就是委員所關切的台牛的這些牛奶的部分那我們相對的產業的一個輔導推動包括寡產牛的部分去做一個調控然後總量的調控從48萬我們希望說大概在43萬到45萬之間那這個部分還有一些"},{"start":3348.266,"end":3374.346,"text":"有關於乳品的品質還有多元開發的部分都有在一個專案在做那敘事所的作業基金裡面他本身也有產業的牛奶那我們希望說他本身的牛奶如果量減少他希望做更多的事情包括有一些乳品的這些鑑定的技術的開發還有多元的乳品的開發在敘事所可以強化這一塊而不是去生產牛奶來賣所以我們有做了一整頓這樣的調整"},{"start":3376.085,"end":3388.481,"text":"你做了就是減少它的這個生產量把它轉型嘛你現在是轉型嘛那叫做轉型不是預算要更增加嗎我是看你們是減少啊"},{"start":3390.287,"end":3405.402,"text":"因為整個的一個牛奶的生產有它的實際的成本：這個是作業基金啊 對不對對,作業基金裡面本身它有一部分是做研究的部分我們希望說那研究的部分它本身的經費是比較少的所以它整體的成本的經費是下降的"},{"start":3408.76,"end":3425.973,"text":"這個部長你自己去看你們的內容我也不刪你我也不動你就是希望我變成主決議主決議然後你把它整個你的配套還有你現在你要轉型的部分"},{"start":3427.134,"end":3455.314,"text":"你現在你說你產量要減少就你不要去與民爭利嘛你減少你減少之後你要轉型你轉型要更大的一些計畫跟做法你錢怎麼會減少呢你們只有說自己高興的我這樣點你們就清楚了啦怎麼會減少你們這個轉型要符合轉型正義這個第6案陳立法委員改組決議"},{"start":3456.772,"end":3473.213,"text":"第7案實驗委員這個項目的話是針對我們續產的實驗所他們整個業務的基礎的費用但是我們看到最近幾年來這個生乳的生產量是逐漸的成長尤其在109年到112年"},{"start":3474.935,"end":3497.992,"text":"它的產量在43萬公噸提高到47萬公噸在112年的成長值也到了133億但是我們剛剛也提到了就面對著明年紐西蘭的這個長效鮮奶要進口而且是零關稅對於我們國內的這個生乳一定是有非常大的衝擊對於產銷方面那我們整個那個實驗所應該要對於糯農怎麼樣去強化品質"},{"start":3503.856,"end":3524.511,"text":"實驗室對強化品質一定是有一套的一個因應的一個措施但是我們要瞭解的就是說怎麼樣去維持它整個市場的這個競爭力才能避免我們基金整個收入會受到影響那尤其是這個落農要怎麼去輔導它而且我們現在也提到說要班班有先來"},{"start":3525.552,"end":3534.071,"text":"阿你們這慢慢有些奶這個產量的問題還有處理的過程的問題我們還沒有看到部長這邊有沒有一套做法出來"},{"start":3535.481,"end":3537.401,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":3557.646,"end":3573.846,"text":"還有就是說你這個整個配套來講話有些不喝鮮奶的你是不是應該要做學校調查一下這個鮮奶的要有多少瓶然後調味奶有多少瓶讓孩子們能夠落實到我們政府的美意每個人都能喝到牛奶"},{"start":3574.206,"end":3574.686,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":3603.866,"end":3629.175,"text":"等一下再說明,下一位請謝一鳳我也附和一下就是我們李玉琳委員的提案就是斑斑有先乳這個部分目前是在於就是學童的部分但是我們面對到目前已經臺灣已經是高齡化了那高齡長者的缺概的現象也普遍"},{"start":3629.855,"end":3657.5,"text":"那是不是應該要落實到就是教職員也應該要來就是說補充蓋職那因為畢竟未來有可能所有的公務人員的就是高齡的情況越來越嚴重那這個部分是不是能夠擴及到教職員那也能夠順利讓這個就是說我們因應這個紐西蘭關就是說先入零關稅的這個進口的問題"},{"start":3659.62,"end":3680.345,"text":"那是不是未來我們應該要通盤來檢討那再來就是在保酒乳的部分會不會因為我們現在沒有驗證台灣保酒乳的這樣子相關的方法那認證的方式那沒有認證的方式的時候會不會造成"},{"start":3681.585,"end":3683.327,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":3696.442,"end":3697.442,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":3712.889,"end":3724.319,"text":"農業部跟教育部在這個就是細緻度上面就是如果冷藏設備不足的部分應該怎麼處理那冷鏈的部分應該怎麼處理應該更細緻的規劃才能讓這個政策能夠具體的落實請農業部回答"},{"start":3730.223,"end":3754.416,"text":"首先要說明的是有關於那個國產路推動到學童午餐的部分那第一個部分我們現在正在收集各縣市的這些就是他們多元的那個供應的這些意見那這些意見已經收集的差不多了那初步來看不同的縣市他們有不同的做法那有包括要發數位券或實體券然後甚至於"},{"start":3755.856,"end":3778.267,"text":"通過契約或是營養午餐的這個供應那基本上我們會針對地方政府所提的這些多元的供應方式我們會由地方來主導然後中央做必要的一個協助我們不會去規範說一定用什麼樣的一個方式來處理那至於說相關的這些必須要中央部會來協助的部分"},{"start":3779.387,"end":3797.923,"text":"例如說數位卡的部分那可能又要跟這些超市跟那些協調我們會來跟縣市政府一起來跟這些相關的單位來協調那職員的部分我們會考量進去因為職員的部分我覺得有必要去考量高齡的部分我們是用綠色照護的那個經費跟支持會去處理"},{"start":3800.422,"end":3805.263,"text":"第7案,我們是凍結50萬,好不好?那個,理委員,你提案,我們凍結50萬。好,凍結50萬提出出任務報告審訟是第8案,也是理委員。"},{"start":3829.67,"end":3841.515,"text":"針對第8案就是我們的農業生物科技園區這個出租率不佳啦那112年到113年它平均出租率只有43%那我們可預見的就是說114年你在這個198公頃的土地上還有73.9公頃的土地還沒有出租喔"},{"start":3849.639,"end":3868.858,"text":"沒有達到這個標準所以我們看我們這整個園區要如何去出租農業部這邊要做一個檢討看出租的措施來提升我們這個基金收益所以這邊先凍結1500萬請提出一些因應的措施來提高我們基金收入"},{"start":3870.053,"end":3891.762,"text":"這個能不能說明一下那跟委員報告那科技園區是它有兩期那第一期原本的93可以出租93公頃在差不多78年前它已經快滿所以我們在78年開始走手在110年的時候第二期的部分有93公頃可以出租結果我們這幾年就有30公頃出租出去"},{"start":3892.253,"end":3913.792,"text":"所以是因為兩期加起來會讓整個感覺上是比較低其實我們一年大概上都有將近10公頃的出租面積出去那未來我們會繼續努力委員都知道我們繼續努力希望不要你總面積不是198嗎對就是兩期加在一起那兩期加在一起第一期的已經達到百分之九十幾了那第二期的第二期已經百分之三十了"},{"start":3914.694,"end":3915.654,"text":"兩位科技演習因為都在屏東"},{"start":3931.82,"end":3937.865,"text":"農科主任您說第二期是110年開始對不對110年開始嘛那現在的出租率只有百分之三十幾"},{"start":3961.869,"end":3965.173,"text":"有什麼精進的想法如何把這些土地招租出去一般的工業區現在大家都是找不到土地"},{"start":3981.711,"end":3995.839,"text":"我們一直在推廣農業科技我們的農科反而是土地閒置在那裡沒有人來租那你們有沒有什麼精進的方法有沒有什麼推動的這些作為"},{"start":3999.22,"end":4015.091,"text":"有些農業的東西是不是能夠有一些更前瞻的做法去吸引大家來包括他在土地的這些租用上面能夠有更多的優惠或者是有其他的誘因這些你們有沒有相關的作為"},{"start":4016.873,"end":4031.031,"text":"其實農科研區他比較是算是說他在環境要求上會比較高所以他大概進來都是比較算是低污染的第一個那第二個他比較傾向是跟農業有關係最好是能夠拉抬農業"},{"start":4031.972,"end":4052.806,"text":"所以一般想說是工業區那一種的工廠要進來那我們原則上說我們是主要是來輔導我們農業的發展所以在選項上有它的困難度那我們是再積極目前來講我們的安心食品已經進來了剛剛桂冠也是在這幾年進來了吼那信和這大穀物料也是進來了那呃"},{"start":4054.547,"end":4079.667,"text":"還有幾家比較算是像食安牧場他也準備進來所以我們都希望能夠把一些跟農業有相關的產業進來那這樣子才可以來拉抬台灣的農業是這樣的一個目標啦好下一位賴瑞榮好我也是建議啦因為既然農業生物科技園區的部分這個其實應該是蠻重要但是招商不佳的原因那我還是希望部長能夠去重視啦因為"},{"start":4080.807,"end":4101.617,"text":"為什麼招商不加那是否一些條件上的問題還是說招商遇到為什麼廠商不願意進駐這個招商我覺得部長可能要通盤去檢討不然如果持續這樣的話那是不是整個政策的目的到底哪邊有一些狀況要做調整我覺得還是要請部長整個通盤再去檢討一下那我也傾向是用凍結給更多機會那等一下這補一個"},{"start":4103.898,"end":4118.727,"text":"另外還是要趁這個機會提醒因為錢正宇港的部分遭上我希望部長還是要持續加油我希望盡快的把這個好的廠商找出來這個私下我再找部長再來談一下農科也可以提到錢正宇港"},{"start":4120.936,"end":4126.942,"text":"農業科技園區作業基金動結500萬提出說明報告指責動失第7項部分是動結50萬提出說明報告第9項"},{"start":4144.307,"end":4152.61,"text":"主席,這個案子我會提出說需要全數凍結是因為這個標案是在113年3月27日決標的那這個得標的廠商恆基總決標金額是528萬左右"},{"start":4164.453,"end":4167.915,"text":"旅約期其實是從113年的4月3號到9月25號但是由於113年的年度預算並沒有編列相關的預算卻先行辦理採購"},{"start":4179.821,"end":4207.85,"text":"才由今年來編這個預算由114年來編這個預算而且呢不是並非這個補辦預算顯然他這筆預算是未循預算程序辦理所以我要求凍結這個預算然後說明這個系統是不是有重複建置或預算的這個編列的這個程序的疑義可以先釐清再請解凍"},{"start":4209.331,"end":4234.608,"text":"這個農業部先說明你們之前有沒有跟張委員溝通過沒有約到時間跟我們做報告第一個是因為主改的關係那個可以準備的期間非常的短所以我們在這麼短的時間那整個資生物的系統它其實非常的複雜包括很多產品的這個生產銷售等等這些所以我們在這個有限的時間底下"},{"start":4235.208,"end":4258.102,"text":"那因為這個部分它是無形的資產所以它不是管制的項目那我們因為業務的需求我們就用這個直接請購的方式來做這個辦理那另外一個就是剛剛委員提到有沒有重複編列的問題其實是沒有齁因為它是整個整個一個對不起標案"},{"start":4259.724,"end":4266.489,"text":"那這樣子的標準我們從在整個系統上面前後他是有這個連貫性的沒有重複性的疑慮以上"},{"start":4270.568,"end":4286.2,"text":"那他為什麼不用補辦預算?他要用今年來?而且為什麼別的單位,農業部其他單位都沒有這個問題只有你有這個問題?你們之前就應該無論如何想方設法用盡任何方法就要跟張委員溝通你們說沒有遇到時間我們沒辦法接受"},{"start":4296.348,"end":4301.523,"text":"這早就應該溝通好 不是在這邊討論的 這個是不是 那個嘉峻我們是凍結100萬好不好"},{"start":4303.459,"end":4303.739,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4334.411,"end":4334.812,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4341.482,"end":4342.963,"text":"徵召辦理徵召辦理徵召辦理"},{"start":4370.526,"end":4379.373,"text":"二十二之一啊!你們看一下!欸!續產的啊!續產終於集結了"},{"start":4396.67,"end":4397.51,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":4425.255,"end":4435.6,"text":"這個三案我們待會再處理齁來我們先處理農田水利事業作業基金來先處理23案提案委員會再照列24案來來囉"},{"start":4440.68,"end":4464.438,"text":"那個是不是請先說明一下吧是,非常感謝委員的追尋那我們農田水利署這個旅運費之所以增加是因為明年這個主計總署把我們公務人員這個每人每日的住宿費有2000元那麼提為平日是3500塊那麼假日是4500塊我們是按照這樣的一個比例然後來這個整列的"},{"start":4465.319,"end":4479.369,"text":"那我問一下你們的決算數其實你們的決算數跟預算數差的相當大你們差了八千多萬你們領運費編了一億兩千三百八十四萬但是你們決算數相差六千多萬"},{"start":4480.45,"end":4502.231,"text":"那這個部分是跟委員報告那最主要是因為在112年的上半年事實上還有一些疫情所以當時我們的一些差異就比較少那因為隨著這個大家的生活逐漸的這個回復所以我們就按照過去這樣的一個次數然後我們來估量我還是希望你們遵節來支出好不好那我就建議凍結200萬然後提出運報再行結凍好嗎"},{"start":4504.893,"end":4506.195,"text":"提出書面報告時的動詞"},{"start":4515.679,"end":4532.867,"text":"謝謝主席我剛剛才拿到農業部給的資料我在這邊也特別講一下我看到這資料裡面的時候農田水利事業的作業基金就是跟農業作業基金一樣其實它沒有編列沒宣費可是對推展費的部分編列7208.7萬元的推展費比112年的決算數增加28%"},{"start":4540.31,"end":4558.595,"text":"增加了1600萬那你們剛剛提供出來資料的時候我稍微馬上看了一下對於整個的執行狀態到11月底的時候不到50%預計到今年的整個執行度也不到80%所以我覺得28%可能也剛剛好而已所以我這邊也是主張就是減裂1600萬以上 謝謝"},{"start":4566.359,"end":4583.887,"text":"這檢列會不會讓你們推廣這個電子電視說推廣的業務會造成影響跟委員報告齁那在112年的時候那也是因為上半年的一些疫情的關係所以我們事實上相關的這個活動那我們就有點減少甚至沒有辦那麼那"},{"start":4585.007,"end":4605.628,"text":"那在這個113年事實上我們實際執行數是有比112年多那因為我們在這個推展費裡面有很重要的一塊是針對如果當這個比較乾旱的時候那我們必須在地方上辦大量的這樣的一個節約用水以及這個輪流灌溉的這樣的一個說明會那因為今年的這個水情相對比較好所以我們這一塊當然就"},{"start":4606.929,"end":4606.949,"text":"陳敬飛議員"},{"start":4628.352,"end":4651.712,"text":"我想這個部分我們要拜託說這部分真的不能刪可是你們也做得不夠因為我必須跟署長報告跟部長報告就是說其實我們過去還沒有轉為公務單位的時候其實水利會只要是有針對所謂要調度水的問題"},{"start":4653.833,"end":4677.218,"text":"會跟所有農民邀集來做討論然後跟他們溝通看說到底什麼時候做這樣的事情會比較OK然後我們把水利署當時候是這個我們各河川局他們會報上去給水利署然後水利署就是依照他們整個水情調度的狀況然後跟我們"},{"start":4679.659,"end":4706.26,"text":"水利會當時是水利會可是現在變成公務單位之後我們少做了這個區塊所以這個農民在跟我反映說現在好像我們就是什麼時候要關水什麼時候要幫水什麼時候要輪流基本上他們都是聽從命令可是是不是真的這樣就可以去處理到水的問題或是幫助到他們"},{"start":4707.541,"end":4735.5,"text":"其實不是所以我是不是可以拜託我們可以回歸到過去水利會的狀態一樣也就是說只要是我們真的要調度水了調度水的時候我們跟農民開一個會然後讓他們知道現在水情的狀況是如何像我們明年二月嘛我們工格啊他們工格比較窄捏啊現在大家撲不條啊"},{"start":4737.601,"end":4749.335,"text":"他們說根本就已經跟之前的時間有點不一樣所以他們以為跟以前一樣所以都有調度了結果你們現在突然之間跟他說二月"},{"start":4750.543,"end":4771.756,"text":"他們措手不及所以我是不是可以要求部長還有我們的署長我們也是要照著公務單位也要照著人家過去3、2會有這樣做我們特別公告單位公務單位後我們是不是如果要掉肚水的時候也開一個我們這裡小組長跟他們大家開一個會"},{"start":4773.976,"end":4799.434,"text":"這樣好不好?讓他們知道,然後他們可以提供意見啊說,欸不是,我們是不是可以這樣調整大家取得最大共識,讓他們拿到資料,不是,但你講過了那他來歡迎的時候,我們跟你反映的時候,你說沒辦法講過啊,哇,那個感覺很不好所以這個部分是不是,那我建議這一筆預算不要刪,因為這個很重要,但是要落實"},{"start":4800.635,"end":4825.162,"text":"如果你能夠做到未來讓他們能夠有參與感 那我覺得這筆預算應該就是要給你 謝謝現在確實極端氣候的狀況越來越嚴重 曾經高雄有一整年的時間是幾乎不下雨 沒有水 那沒有水的狀況下 節水就很重要 如果大家沒有節水的話 特別是農田水利有很重要的水源"},{"start":4825.802,"end":4848.227,"text":"那還好那段時間南部撐過去了就是包括各個不管是從農業的到產業大家努力的撐過去但是我們永遠不知道極端氣候下什麼時候又再出現有時候突然一瞬間一天下一天下一千多毫米的水有時候可能一年都不下所以我說這種極端氣候下確實我們需要做更多因應那其實我是認同"},{"start":4849.147,"end":4868.82,"text":"農田水利這邊我們要更多的一些宣導特別是遇到這種旱災發生的時候一定要提醒大家不斷的宣導大家來節約用水然後讓我們的水源能夠穩定的供應所以我是建議政府能不能就是不要當然要求要尊潔支出啦但是不要刪減因為這個錢有可能都是救命錢如果沒有水"},{"start":4869.36,"end":4869.5,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4893.231,"end":4908.081,"text":"既然講到這裡我還是要提一下就是說我們的農田水利事業有很多的灌溉菌那其實像在美農這個水菌文化其實是一個蠻悠久的歷史"},{"start":4909.202,"end":4933.192,"text":"但是因為這幾年歸到這個把它變成公單位之後其實對於地方的這些農田水利的分屬比如說我條明的講像我們美農辦了很多水具的文化節可是對於分屬的同仁來講他們就很為難因為他們認為法令上那個是灌溉溝渠所以不能在那裡辦活動"},{"start":4934.713,"end":4962.895,"text":"可是對於在地的社區或者是在地人來講那個是一個兒時回憶或者是一個跟土地接近的這樣的一個活動所以是不是能夠有一些比較折衷的辦法能夠既保留這樣的一個灌溉勾取然後也能夠讓一些地方產業的活動也能夠同時舉辦這個是我的請求啦那第二點就是說"},{"start":4964.036,"end":4983.491,"text":"那這個水到底是農業用水重要還是民生用水重要?其實有一些比較偏遠的山區它其實是要利用你們的灌溉溝渠然後才能夠去取水可是變成會對水利單位來講你這個是灌溉用的"},{"start":4983.871,"end":4984.611,"text":"我問一下那個水利署"},{"start":5011.716,"end":5032.971,"text":"農業水利署,你推管費這個7000多萬是本署使用還是各分署也會用到這筆錢?全部都是各管理署所以全國各縣市都有分署包括新竹、台中、高雄都有分署所以這筆推展費是下放到各分署"},{"start":5033.411,"end":5034.412,"text":"委員會提升推管的效率及效能"},{"start":5059.295,"end":5061.295,"text":"附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":5081.88,"end":5094.382,"text":"那我就覺得說如果是這狀態的時候我們是不是先凍結20%然後等到真的水晴他們需要去宣導說因為今年他們執行率也不到80%他們今年預計的執行率是不到80%的"},{"start":5096.294,"end":5108.692,"text":"好 那我們是不是先動一下 反正等到真的他們需要再宣導的時候 我們再來做解凍好 那個楊修昕請問那個鄭振泉委員的提案那剛剛這個"},{"start":5112.718,"end":5138.456,"text":"農水署也說明因為以前基金不是公務預算因為以前又碰到疫情所以有一些錢的確沒有辦法我們審預算就是我們會很詳細去看這是第一點如果說確實是以疫情方面我覺得剛剛曾政權有非常的智慧也就是不刪用動的"},{"start":5139.477,"end":5164.424,"text":"但是我認為應該可以動10%當然這個大家討論我的理由是什麼呢我要很嚴肅的跟農業部說農水署說因為像最近這兩三天當然我們歸咎在氣候的變遷很大所以你們的需求一定要去謹慎這是第一個"},{"start":5165.944,"end":5183.197,"text":"但是我要勉勵你們也就是說如果政府公務門可以做的不要隨意去發佈訊息我們政委員我一定是支持他因為他跟我們服務處就是被打到爆了啦實際上就是如此"},{"start":5184.403,"end":5206.216,"text":"各位小組長因為某某稀水不夠所以我們停止灌溉你看就這麼宣布那你讓民眾絕對會談到我們這邊來那我非常感謝蔡組長他聽到訊息半夜一點的時候聽到訊息說我不想明天又去抗議所以半夜一點你要給他加獎"},{"start":5208.178,"end":5228.019,"text":"半夜一點他接電話我說你立即你去盤查真的不夠也不夠但是一定有夠不可能臨時不夠的啦不可能啦所以他馬上調整他說明天中午以前我再給你放水我們還要再去給民眾講你放心啦這樣可以啦"},{"start":5228.579,"end":5250.481,"text":"那我現在要講的意思就是說我知道你們很辛苦因為隨時變化但是你可能勉勵我們的同仁EQ比較高的啦你不要立即啦 對不對你不要只有儲存你自己啦你應該要儲存老百姓啦儲存我們的農民啦非得沒辦法的時候很恐怖啦"},{"start":5251.181,"end":5271.599,"text":"對不對 你不要貿然看還有可以調整的空間 你連看都沒有看 你就給他算薄 難怪我 政委員跟我 我們一定抓狂嘛 這個不需要我們去讓民眾恐慌的 對不對 你好想是碰到一個好署長 他半夜一點要接電話 不然又要說霸凌了"},{"start":5272.605,"end":5272.865,"text":"農業部主管"},{"start":5299.788,"end":5300.268,"text":"第25項推展費"},{"start":5312.111,"end":5339.516,"text":"我們這個凍結1000萬提出書面報告後10的凍資來26萬來停飛26萬還是改組決議沒有等一下我要那個凍結然後凍結100萬然後那個書面報告後10的凍資因為他們有來跟我說明啦但是我覺得還是書面資料資料說你們增加在哪裡那為什麼增加這可能比較重要好我要書面好謝謝"},{"start":5340.456,"end":5345.26,"text":"那個我要簽名啊 這個我要提案 我要加入 26號 26號 凍結100萬26號 你要問一下嗎 好來"},{"start":5353.072,"end":5371.407,"text":"我要請教,因為這個是一般建築跟設備會用。我要請教因為現在所有的都說是這個少缺工啊。我們的現象有沒有這種現象?這是第一點。因為我們編列明年度的預算,那個環境部"},{"start":5373.363,"end":5400.182,"text":"工程會工程會在年底在12月底就這個月底他們會公佈材質的碳的比例我們要求的我們不喜歡說一直標一直標一直標標標不出去這樣很浪費所以你乾脆政府提供一個大概大概的母數標準讓人家要標的人有所依歸尤其是材質在工廠的啦豬尼的這種的啦什麼空的這個"},{"start":5403.164,"end":5420.402,"text":"12月底要提出所以在我們編列建築跟設備的時候我們有沒有把這個概念納進來有沒有納進來你要不要說明一下因為你不納進來你明年又是這個又delay那個又delay因為我們的工程會12月底他就要公佈請做說明"},{"start":5421.683,"end":5440.716,"text":"非常感謝委員的追尋那事實上我們的確在112年的時候當時上半年有受到一些疫情的影響那所以工程的就是有缺工然後同時那個還有一些這個原物料的一些上漲所以導致工程招標比較困難不過我們也很快的去調整那相關的單價我們依照政府採購法第16條的相關規定去做一些調整所以後來都順利的這個招標出去了"},{"start":5447.7,"end":5450.403,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":5468.558,"end":5483.791,"text":"主席,您沒有回答本席的問題本席是說12月底他們要公布這個碳費的一個標準那你們在編列明年的時候您有沒有把這個因子加進去本席要提問的是這個有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":5491.937,"end":5494.039,"text":"第5段後面的其中土地及房屋建築"},{"start":5507.506,"end":5533.324,"text":"到下一行的那個進度我看過了可以接受29案修正通過30案遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理�"},{"start":5538.427,"end":5557.839,"text":"22-1-2-3來 遵照辦理 22-1遵照辦理 84-1遵照辦理 來 照案通過 84-2遵照辦理 照案通過這個今天天氣比較寒冷齁 我們這個休息10分鐘"},{"start":5566.243,"end":5566.867,"text":"必要時延長兩分鐘啊"},{"start":6168.055,"end":6169.537,"text":"農業特別收入基金36萬推廣費振振錢"},{"start":6184.502,"end":6202.309,"text":"謝謝主席其實我今天就是針對推展費的部分其實我就特別去關注了一下其實我覺得農業特別收入基金這部分其實相較於農業作業基金跟農田水利作業基金其實我覺得情況更為嚴重嚴重在哪裡?第一個是"},{"start":6203.369,"end":6213.719,"text":"農業作業基金跟農田水利事業作業基金基本上都沒有編煤宣費可是特別收入基金這邊的時候他有編煤宣費已經編了4000多萬將近5000萬然後他又編了將近2億1900"},{"start":6220.676,"end":6239.29,"text":"一億九千三百九十五點四萬元 是每宣費的四倍是一百一十二年推展費的決算數的二點三倍他們當時來說明的時候 其實坦白說剛剛是在主席要求之下 他們才把那個細部的資料給我們"},{"start":6240.792,"end":6260.892,"text":"針對今年執行的狀態也是剛剛才在會上提供資料給我我馬上算了一下到11月底的時候這個農業特別收入基金的執行率不到25%11月底不到25%他們預計今年的整個執行率大概也只能到45%"},{"start":6263.499,"end":6265.7,"text":"本席主張這個案的時候呢簡略一億一千萬元以上謝謝"},{"start":6301.303,"end":6315.268,"text":"剪裂一億一千萬元那整個就不用做啦基本上我想推展費絕對是有必要的這個地方怎麼把農業整個的一個往外拓展"},{"start":6315.928,"end":6333.461,"text":"是農民非常重要的關鍵。農民的生活、農民可以賣料好嗎?這是非常重要的。所以我認為這部分有任何問題我覺得用凍結我覺得我沒有意見,但是用簡略的那回去就沒辦法交代了。所以我認為說在"},{"start":6336.688,"end":6352.421,"text":"推展費的部分應該要不清楚要說清楚就是說為什麼會有這樣大家的懷疑那解釋完之後大家未來要怎麼把它做得更好應該從這個方面而不是簡略簡略就不能做啦所以我認為"},{"start":6353.422,"end":6353.502,"text":"農業部答覆"},{"start":6369.578,"end":6385.616,"text":"謝謝委員的推詢那基本上這樣的一個推展費用是所有的特收基金包括農發、農債、農損還有林務基金所有基金的推展業務那推轉的項目包括我們要去推展所謂的合理發思維我們有很多"},{"start":6386.617,"end":6408.632,"text":"有機製材的補助也要做宣導相對的農業的貸款我們也會做定期的宣保、農業的保險甚至於剛才陳委員所關切的這些怎樣讓農產品能夠順利的銷售特別是在國外的行銷的這些推廣的部分農產品的推廣的部分都是在基金費裡面向下去支應的"},{"start":6410.473,"end":6429.195,"text":"第2個部分就是剛才委員所垂詢的就是說我們去年度的預算率比較低那最主要的原因就是我們有做因為為了那個重要性的部分我們把部分的經費去去調整到特別是在去年養牛的時候那時候的養牛本身因為"},{"start":6429.916,"end":6455.379,"text":"整個的一個114年以後的那個經費還沒有還沒有開始執行但是養牛產業裡面那時候的養牛本身的寡產牛的一些相關的作為跟談話的時候比較重要所以我們把部分的經費做調整到那邊去處理那今年度的部分明年度的部分我想我們很多必須要去協助農民特別是剛才說有些有機製材的宣導的部分要讓農民知道農民才會來用"},{"start":6456.34,"end":6461.434,"text":"好,那這個部分也想盡情能夠免於刪除,然後我們用書面報告的方式來處理。好,楊卿"},{"start":6465.727,"end":6489.063,"text":"謝謝主席楊卿發言部長我覺得委員所提出的你要針對他的提問來做說明我想我們也不要亂扣帽子因為我想經濟委員會以及全院的委員大家對於農民絕對是全力支持不要說真的就什麼都不能做你應該是要針對"},{"start":6491.725,"end":6504.934,"text":"這個委員所提出比如說他說去年度你們的執行率才兩成多那是不是如屬實我們今天是審預算而不是講故事而不是寫小說"},{"start":6506.255,"end":6523.855,"text":"大家一定都全力的支持農民但是你針對於委員所提出的你並沒有回答假設說你這個去年度真正你的預算執行只有兩成三成你明年增加的預算是兩倍多三倍多"},{"start":6524.696,"end":6536.029,"text":"那這個人們也聽不下去啊對不對那到底是怎麼回事你應該就提案委員的提問來做說明嘛我希望再聽到你的說明啊來內容內容之後曾經請"},{"start":6544.011,"end":6563.927,"text":"追比的推展費1.9億但是我看了一下預算書裡面它其實有牽涉到提升農業經營跟發展計畫包括調整產業跟防範措施的計畫甚至農村再生的規劃還有人力培育的計畫還有農村再生的建設跟發展計畫"},{"start":6564.728,"end":6584.902,"text":"其實我認為都相當重要啦齁那我認為這些計畫也都應該要持續推展那當然執行力不佳要請部長要再提升但是我希望各位委員能夠支持啦齁這個刪減掉一億多幾乎這些工作大概都會遇到推展生會遇到很大的一個困難啦我希望卓與凍結啦但是不要刪減掉他們讓這些工作都能夠來推動啦齁謝謝"},{"start":6586.796,"end":6607.64,"text":"這件事情說完我們就處理謝謝主席我先稍微補充說明一下因為為什麼會說減劣1億1000萬因為我剛剛才拿到這個數字他們剛剛才匯中才提供給我的數字的時候我也很清楚跟大家講一下因為今年的預算數是2億他們能夠執行就是9000萬所以跟我減劣1億1000萬是剛好滿足的"},{"start":6611.181,"end":6638.837,"text":"所以我們當時提出簡列1億1千萬其實並不是憑空摸著腦子想出來的其實我們有稍微去評估過他們今天所提出來的113年度的執行數大概就是只有9千萬所以他們的預算數是多編了1.1億這是以上那剛剛部長有特別提到說表示我們這部分特別收入基金裡面還要幫農業貸款、利息補貼差額等等"},{"start":6639.597,"end":6661.719,"text":"就針對這個部分我也稍微看了一下這個數字針對這個農業發展基金裡面對於農業貸款、利息差和補貼的部分它執行率只有11.38%這個部分今年度的預計執行度只有11.38%執行率其實很差啦所以本期題這個簡略我覺得其實還是非常的合理的以上謝謝"},{"start":6666.087,"end":6682.649,"text":"請部長說明我想跟委員說明就是我剛才有說到的就是執行率低的確是執行率比較低但是因為本身我們這邊的資料大概是將近四成不是兩成那同樣的就是說執行率低有一個原因剛才有講到就是說"},{"start":6683.169,"end":6703.64,"text":"我們部分的在農損的部分有一部分的業務費就是業務推廣費的部分因為那時候的養牛產業需要寡產牛淘汰所以我們在那個基金裡面的這個部分的調整把它調整到處理去那個寡產牛的這些處理的方式所以它本身的那個經費本身就有做一些移動"},{"start":6704.64,"end":6730.925,"text":"所以移動的時候它就不能再用了那第二個部分就是在112年的時候那時候相關有關休閒農業的部分的一些推展的部分因為一開始的時候那個疫情還有一些人流還是比較少的時候那我們希望說在那個地方本身的這些業務的推動它的強度會比較弱所以它的持續率比較低但是我們一定會去檢討後續的這些包括剛才所做的農業貸款的部分我們也會來努力來提升"},{"start":6733.58,"end":6737.044,"text":"部長你這樣講讓我們會嚇一跳你基金預算審過然後你挪用去什麼牛怎麼處理你這樣講讓人家真的會嚇到會嚇到"},{"start":6752.429,"end":6774.518,"text":"我一起提問完了齁我覺得這個部分當然我們希望所有的政府的預算都是尊潔的啦齁但是當然也不希望它亂花但是基金的部分當然它編列上去可以用的時候就可以很好的做運用啦那"},{"start":6774.938,"end":6792.778,"text":"沒有用完的其實還是回到基金內嘛所以我是建議各位委員其實他沒有用完的還是回到基金內但是如果你把他框住了甚至他沒有將來真的需要用的時候他可能遇到很大的一些限制啦那剛剛部長有提了一些就是他剛剛不管是幾個一些緊急狀況上需要做處理的時候"},{"start":6793.058,"end":6820.75,"text":"我是希望這一塊我們能夠卓予給予他們一些空間因為這個我還是要提醒他是回到基金內用不完一樣回到基金內所以其實刻意去把它給某些我們當然希望他執行率是好但是我也理解他有時候他調整上面希望尊潔使用不需要用的當然就尊潔那我希望這一塊部長在做更多的說明之後我希望還是希望我們能夠支持這樣的一個預算因為用不完他還是會回到"},{"start":6822.459,"end":6828.106,"text":"呃這個基金內不會浪費掉那但是你不給他編列的話有可能將來需要用的時候他可能就沒辦法動用了呃請問"},{"start":6831.692,"end":6860.135,"text":"我的意見是一樣啦就是說從兩層到四層現在給的資料大概是四層嘛那因為基金基本上不可能像我們一般預算一樣說我有執行率的壓力所以我一定要即使沒有也要去消耗預算怎麼樣不可能因為基金沒有用就是留著所以我還是認為說如果我們把它砍掉了未來如果真的有需要的話怎麼辦"},{"start":6861.416,"end":6867.799,"text":"所以我還是認為說應該是要保留或是說我們可以凍結書面報告把你們未來的計畫報出來為什麼你們會編這麼多錢這麼多錢也給於下一次我們在審預算的時候我們可以監督啊你們為什麼編了這麼多錢"},{"start":6881.186,"end":6882.686,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":6905.034,"end":6905.134,"text":"好,來,那個"},{"start":6931.687,"end":6950.753,"text":"主席我還是想要請教一下你們這個一億九千多萬的錢其實有包含林業發展基金、農產品受進口損害救助基金對不對還有農村再生的基金嘛是不是這樣就是就包含這些品項在裡面對所有的特殊基金農發、農債、農損、林務還有農債的部分"},{"start":6955.555,"end":6971.147,"text":"那這個如果農產品受損害受進口損害的救助被砍掉了會產生什麼樣的危機剛剛大家一直在講說紐西蘭的進口這個牛乳進來對台灣的有一些"},{"start":6973.246,"end":6994.108,"text":"入牛業者、落農業者的損害包括我們現在很在乎的農村再生你的農村再生裡頭其實有很多是跟很多的青年創生返鄉務農是有相關的這些工作那這些錢如果被砍掉請問還能做什麼"},{"start":6996.369,"end":7009.395,"text":"來,農業部要不要說明一下?等一下一起說明齁我是這樣認為啊這個人有旦夕祸福又豈能自保?對不對?那天有不赦風雲又豈能預料?這個天災啊極端氣候產生很多對農漁業的衝擊這個所謂天有不赦風雲這不是大家可以預料的"},{"start":7022.433,"end":7050.482,"text":"這個是要應急要緊急災害發生的時候來跟他質詢率當然會不能完全掛鉤他不是一般的公務預算所以如果到時候天有不測風雲你要難預料的時候當這筆錢需要的時候沒有基金已經被砍掉了我們怎麼樣去應付這些緊急的狀況請諸委員能夠深思了解來 那下一位"},{"start":7051.842,"end":7054.314,"text":"徵請徵請之後 呃 楊俊賢我們就就請農業部大部"},{"start":7056.789,"end":7083.278,"text":"OK 我想說因為剛剛其實大家也都特別提到因為這個部分是基金預算的部分所以我在這個部分其實是可以不要用簡列的方式可是我主張凍結1.1億把原本簡列1.1億的部分全部變凍結1.1億到時候需要使用的再過來因為剛剛有委員也特別提到了農產品受進口損害咒術基金的部分今年的執行率預計他們提出來的數字也只有10.10%"},{"start":7088.562,"end":7102.856,"text":"10.4%10.4%其實也不高那我剛剛特別提到就是農業發展基金他們執行率也大概只有11.4%而已其實都不太高啦所以我在這部分的時候我就直接把它改成全部凍結1.1億以上謝謝養錢之後秋瑩之後我們就處理了養錢你不講"},{"start":7109.527,"end":7116.374,"text":"謝謝主席楊全宇發言我都很禮貌每次講話都會謝謝主席楊全宇發言我覺得我們立法院經濟委員會我長期在這裡我都很感動我們所有的委員跟行政部門提出也就是點出問題"},{"start":7134.19,"end":7151.258,"text":"沒有一個立法委員不知道基金的運作方式也沒有人不知道說沒有用完的還是留在基金這個不用講大家都知道那之所以點出這個議題主要就是說大家要怎麼樣好好的去精進"},{"start":7152.958,"end":7156.38,"text":"農業部主管你在利息方面怎麼會再救?"},{"start":7156.38,"end":7158.481,"text":"不可能農民沒缺錢嗎?"},{"start":7158.481,"end":7160.982,"text":"那為什麼會如此?"},{"start":7160.982,"end":7163.904,"text":"那是不是還有更精進的方案?"},{"start":7163.904,"end":7179.991,"text":"這是大家的好意 不然你頻頻點頭 因為我也認定說大家都是為農民 那因為已經點出了說執行率的部分不管兩層三層四層 總是達不到五層"},{"start":7181.172,"end":7194.763,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下當然有很多的特殊狀況會產生隨時應對所以這委員也剛才說了他提出三個目的就是要點出問題結果中間討論他可以來做這個凍結那我個人是這樣認為第一個我希望能夠聽到就你們書面資料"},{"start":7202.93,"end":7209.795,"text":"就是說你們針對於基金的運作方式它的成效是這麼樣的不如我們的預估的時候我們還可以怎麼樣進行方案給農民這是第一點我覺得蠻重要因為它的面很大"},{"start":7218.16,"end":7239.445,"text":"他除了宣傳他還有利息他還有臨時的這個方案那所以我是這樣建議就是凍結的部分因為有凍就是讓你們警惕我認為你就凍結2000萬然後呢讓這個你們的經濟方案也要出來真正大家一起來幫助農民這以上是我個人的建議"},{"start":7243.422,"end":7251.305,"text":"請您一言如醍醐灌頂我剛本來是想說政委員提到說要動議然後要用的時候再來"},{"start":7259.028,"end":7281.077,"text":"再來跟他報告以後再解凍我覺得我是沒有辦法接受這樣的一個說法但是楊瓊英委員剛剛的提議如果說是凍結2000萬我覺得我認為農業部你們還是有義務要把這一些所需的款項所需的經費都要把它寫清楚我贊成楊瓊英委員的建議我們是不是就凍結2000萬好凍結2000萬提出書面報告使得動之來373839一起避難處理"},{"start":7296.978,"end":7313.39,"text":"今天整個會上的氣氛蠻好的特別是剛剛我們楊瓊瑩也要委員提到農水署的署長凌晨一點都在接電話幫忙幫忙在農民處理問題我也很感動你看農水署這一塊這個基金就非常順利的過了"},{"start":7315.886,"end":7342.165,"text":"所以我也期待包括部長跟各位農業部的官員們能夠多照顧我們的農民我這個案子提的是農業部特別這個收入基金附屬單位裡面的農業發展基金良政業務計畫的服務費用我提案先凍結一億元原因為什麼是凍結一億元當初我在提這個案子的時候是在"},{"start":7343.579,"end":7358.695,"text":"三黨的黨團我們到了行政院跟行政院長做溝通協調那天部長也在現場那天大家說朝野和諧中壹讓打開了總預算卡住的大門了"},{"start":7361.343,"end":7377.223,"text":"我再重複一次那天是朝野和諧狀況下行政院跟立法院有共識要去解決所有卡住的問題把卡住這個門打開了那天所有的媒體全國民眾也說行政跟立法終於有好消息了"},{"start":7378.632,"end":7393.573,"text":"那現在我們就在等那個好消息的落實所以是當初的這個背景之下我提了先凍結1萬凍結1億元我們就在等這個好消息的來臨所以我今天清楚的表達如果有好消息就是有所謂的"},{"start":7394.654,"end":7415.271,"text":"有所謂的公糧收購每公斤調高五塊錢這個立法院的主決議有辦法落實那一天行政院跟立法院大家有共識的狀況下提出完整配套方案那這個就可以凍結了那我也預告如果提出來的"},{"start":7416.88,"end":7439.239,"text":"是食言而肥講話不算話那就不是只有凍結這一議的問題了在第二輪我都預告第二輪就不是凍結一議員的問題了我會用簡略的方式而且會不會是只有一議員我也預告下個禮拜二如果這個方案是大家不滿意的下禮拜二農民就上街頭了我也提醒一下部長一件事情不然你一天還在"},{"start":7441.116,"end":7464.167,"text":"財政委員會你說我刪減了、減劣了農業發展基金的3.7億雖然跟今天這個比也是有點相關的我沒有我昨天沒有在財政委員會你說沒辦法執行是不是我都沒有講這句話喔OK好那就沒關係我現在提醒兩件事情很重要跟今天這個有關係一樣是農業發展基金我提出減劣了3.7億"},{"start":7467.208,"end":7488.499,"text":"我請所有在那邊還一直在扭曲事實是會影響到農民潛力的產銷平衡會受到影響的去問一下民進黨的柯建民柯總召柯建民那天說簡略一億就好啦什麼意思現在全民進黨只剩下柯總召董預算法嗎行政部門"},{"start":7490.749,"end":7498.463,"text":"簡列了3.7億現在兩個很大的重點第一個你們該用的東西該用的特別是照顧農民當然繼續用啊怎麼會有影響呢"},{"start":7500.319,"end":7521.529,"text":"那天有特別提到必要的時候可以留用啊你把它往上層農業發展基金還那麼多錢啊第二更重要我要提醒一個點不要想要討價薄以為什麼或操資隨便操資去做一做後來要累這個結算並結算不可能操資並結算不可能審計部那天我跟你講審計部已經講了他到現在雞蛋的這個錢"},{"start":7522.875,"end":7542.389,"text":"根本就不同意你決算啊,所以在打什麼錢趕快用,超市也要併決算,這條路走不通。我也提醒大家一下,今天最熱門的,這兩天最熱門的新聞是什麼?勞動部霸凌案引發的就業安定基金,咱心機不應共啊,有五千多萬不合乎合這個用途,還送到檢調去,也沒辦法決算了啦。"},{"start":7543.345,"end":7559.774,"text":"所以我今天講的非常清楚今天這筆預算是在和諧的狀況下我提了凍結遺言如果提出來這幾天行政院跟農業部提出來的是讓農民失望的案子那就不是就凍結這個遺言了我用簡略的方式另外我要提醒"},{"start":7562.157,"end":7584.179,"text":"前幾天我們檢列了那3.7億不要妄想是要去併這個結算的第二我要提醒一下前部長你要趕快去追回來現在北檢已經擴了超支7千多萬啊那邊都有錢嘛對不對你的責任如果照審計部講的你就應該去幫我們把這個錢不只3.7億啊要5點多億啊去把錢追回來如果錢追回來凍結就會消失了"},{"start":7585.12,"end":7591.108,"text":"好那如果錢不追回來沒有照顧我們的農民不是只有凍結我們到時候會減的預算減的預算也要經過委員會同意"},{"start":7596.795,"end":7607.442,"text":"要經過立法院同意,不是你個人說要錢就可以撿我是說大家成平而論,所有的程序都要經過委員會"},{"start":7621.812,"end":7633.091,"text":"我真的要深呼吸一下為了這個公糧的問題我們本來大家都非常的和諧一個原則你們有你們的方法但是民眾聽不懂"},{"start":7634.861,"end":7659.952,"text":"而且我覺得政府跟人一樣一定要有誠信要嘛你幹你收購工糧你出銷看你幹嗎你也不敢啊那我們說你13年都沒有調他是一個事實但是你們告訴我們說你的ABC123方案但是人民看不到尤其老會交給工糧的很多都是年長的"},{"start":7661.058,"end":7675.108,"text":"九十幾歲還在競走的 很多人 我是很感動很感佩他們 對不對因為我們台灣來過這個土地 來過我們的生活 來過我們的歷史 這個部長你都要把那個黃金鑽石的匾額去送給他們 對不對今天台灣能夠有這樣子 對不對可是我們不能讓他們 跟他們沒有誠信啊"},{"start":7687.529,"end":7705.539,"text":"我們的通盆通13年累計要長幾趴那你們告訴我們說我們從旁邊來協助他們問題你有沒有辦法協助他我今天就乖乖的聽你的政府聽你的政府說你種一種你來交給我"},{"start":7707.35,"end":7716.734,"text":"對不對?阿你13年沒給人家漲這良心也不會再跌過因為你也是最照顧農民的所以我覺得這一個提案呢凍結是應當的"},{"start":7719.444,"end":7743.567,"text":"至於金額怎麼樣 大家來討論但是就誠如剛剛委員所說的 你們必須要提出方案你提出的方案 原來交給公糧的人 他有辦法落實嗎 這個最重要你不要只有認為說 我50加1我都多數決 不是這樣子的政府有義務照顧需要照顧的人"},{"start":7744.187,"end":7769.636,"text":"我這樣年輕十多歲開始一直做做做到現在九十幾歲我一輩子沒有改還是在繳公糧那你不要照顧他嗎沒有理由嘛我只講一句話13年公糧沒有調整物價指數調整幾十趴這話也說不過去嘛那你說你的方案當然你可以雙軌可是他做不來啊"},{"start":7770.717,"end":7771.438,"text":"下一位請鄭天才這個"},{"start":7797.526,"end":7825.614,"text":"要欠部長因為這個工糧收購13年沒有調整所以是立法院所做的決議不分黨派所做的決議公務員、政務官就是要尊重民意啊立法院所做的決議就是代表人民啊代表人民所做的決議"},{"start":7827.122,"end":7844.521,"text":"所以你再有怎麼樣好的一個想法還是要尊重民意所以你可以雙拐進行你講的那一套你繼續做那你這邊大家自理自然自然就選擇嘛所以這個部分就尊重民意"},{"start":7845.903,"end":7863.799,"text":"尊重民意所以我是建議這個一定要凍結而且要做專案報告而不是順便報告以上那個這個發言之後請部長答覆部長答覆之後我們來處理謝謝主席我覺得大家講的都有"},{"start":7864.36,"end":7866.602,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":7891.641,"end":7918.476,"text":"明年到底要怎麼做這些錢你要花到哪裡去預算在每一個作業基金當中你要去做宣導要怎麼做把這個部分很清楚列出來才可以動之那第二個部分就是說關於公糧的部分就像我每一次都跟部長拜託我說13年沒動了確實農民有期待可是我們也不是漫天寒假"},{"start":7919.376,"end":7937.985,"text":"農民更期待的是有一個制度制度很重要就是說你讓他知道看得到吃得到啦你今天漫天喊這樣喊完之後可能20年之後還都還在動不對而是你有一個制度讓他知道說我可以依照什麼樣的調整"},{"start":7939.466,"end":7952.22,"text":"是物價指數還是前年度的整個風災雨災那種天然災害的狀況然後如何去做交替的整合去計算更好的數據讓人民覺得說"},{"start":7955.183,"end":7981.861,"text":"他是有一個制度性幾年要去調整一次要去檢討一次滾動式檢討我決定制度比什麼更重要絕對不是說喊假好13年喊一次是不是我們以後還要在13年後再喊一次這不是人民所期待的所以我們是不是應該更具體的拜託農業部做一個制度然後讓農民知道說我到底"},{"start":7982.722,"end":7999.636,"text":"就像我們每一次調整好四年一次或是幾年一次這樣子我覺得大家都能接受我覺得這樣是比較好所以這是我之前我所做的建議也希望部長可以朝這個方向聽非一句話我的主席非常感動"},{"start":8002.011,"end":8023.917,"text":"部長答覆好我想非常謝謝委員針對公糧收購相關的議題的一個建議那我在這邊說我想我們會尊重那次的黨團協商本身月長的一個指示我們會去檢討我們的公糧政策跟相關的配套措施那整個的一個配套措施"},{"start":8024.617,"end":8043.079,"text":"跟他的政策的一個調整我們初步已經完成但是這裡面因為牽扯到一些經費的問題然後我們會在最短的時間之內跟院長做報告那我在這邊先說明一下其實整個公糧政策的一個調整"},{"start":8043.9,"end":8062.331,"text":"他不只是一個公糧價格的一個調整而已我們在調整整個公糧政策的時候除了剛才委員講的是希望要有一個制度好的一個檢核的一個制度那更重要的是我們也要兼顧產業的一個軍人的發展所以我們在公糧的政策的這個到座"},{"start":8063.872,"end":8086.966,"text":"政策的調整裡面大概有幾個重要的原則第一個原則就是我們會適度的反映它的生產成本但是我們也會兼顧我們的產業的一個均衡發展特別是水稻跟雜糧的面積它總是在做一些拉扯的關係所以我們在調整公糧的政策的時候也要考慮到雜糧的這些政策的一個調整那更重要就是說"},{"start":8087.927,"end":8114.79,"text":"我們也要去注意到其實最近天然災害不斷的發生它所造成的農民的損失其實不亞於我們的生產成本的提高所以我們在新的政策規劃裡面我們也去強調了怎麼樣去面對我們的那個天然極端天後造成的天災的損失能夠有一個對農民有一個更好的一個保障我想這三個原則我想我們會在"},{"start":8116.349,"end":8128.547,"text":"與院長報告以後我們在下個禮拜因為黨團協商裡面是在月底之前要提出來那我們會在最近的時間跟院長報告以後並取得相關的經費的支持以後我們會對外來說明"},{"start":8133.753,"end":8153.259,"text":"市長,我們那天協商有兩個很重要的點。第一個,雖然時間壓在年底,可是你不要在壓線的時間點。今天幾號阿捏?所以你說要去跟議員長報告,第一個時間要快一點,好不好?快一點,你不要補我,補我12月30日當時給我拿出來。"},{"start":8156.753,"end":8181.62,"text":"第一個時間點要快第二個是剛剛你講的這個內容那個是那天我們朝委協商立院跟行政部門是有共識我們是要落實立法院的主決議每公斤調高五塊錢是要落實這個點另外剛剛主席在佩服的這個陳廷輝、陳穩提這個那天我除了這個主決議過之後我有提那個附帶決議台灣民眾黨"},{"start":8183.407,"end":8197.703,"text":"有請我沒有錯啊就是要用制度化來解決這個問題啊這是人民為什麼這麼生氣農民為什麼這麼生氣因為13年沒有條啊你看看台北市的公車還有我們所有政府的你包括社會福利的一些指標他一定有兩三年他一定有滾動式的調整嘛"},{"start":8199.425,"end":8214.138,"text":"我也是提了負債結議啊 我們就以後落實不要沒什麼時間來好像 就是我們用公式例如說它的成本 你剛剛講的成本啊 物價指數啊 基本公式啊 我們把它放進去啊那你說兩三年固定該調多少的 你看農民最近這幾年為了這個通貨膨脹都苦"},{"start":8217.321,"end":8217.721,"text":"休息一分半"},{"start":8551.812,"end":8552.232,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8567.708,"end":8586.237,"text":"六億零一七三萬一千元我們凍結五千萬提出順便報告死的凍值。事實案跟事實案：主席抱歉抱歉那個主席你現在順便報告裡面至少要包括那個工糧收購那一塊要很清楚的這個講清楚那一定會講那一定會講好OK那對人民跟農民要交代"},{"start":8587.377,"end":8592.679,"text":"提案改為主決議提案改為主決議提案改為主決議提案改為主決議"},{"start":8615.901,"end":8629.095,"text":"提案改成主決議。繼續處理零雲發展及造林基金46474849必然處理。48的部分本席提案改成主決議。46474849一併處理。"},{"start":8643.655,"end":8643.795,"text":"主席"},{"start":8667.906,"end":8681.935,"text":"這個部分就是說我們在整個森林遊樂區的部分到底我們有什麼樣的一個轉型或是怎麼樣去提升到底我們這個部分我們的"},{"start":8683.123,"end":8703.639,"text":"我們自己訂的KPI到底訂在哪裡?我跟委員報告一下我們整理了一張這個圖大家可以看一下我們的森林遊樂區這三年的這個入園人數是在增加當中的事實上之所以會有短處是因為阿里山臨鐵的關係因為"},{"start":8705.7,"end":8732.674,"text":"在去年7月之前他沒有全線通車但是領鐵每年的這個維護費用大概就差不多是要2億那我們全線通車之後明年中開始也會逐漸新車進來之後會逐漸增班所以未來短處的情況絕對可以改善那扣除掉領鐵之外這森林二區我們其實一直很努力在經營那在去年我們幾乎都達標了那今年因為受到這個颱風還有這個"},{"start":8735.655,"end":8746.142,"text":"發言大地震有好幾月時間政府都呼籲民眾不要上山活動所以我們今年可能會受到比較大的影響但是從這上面可以看出來我們其實很努力在經營"},{"start":8748.046,"end":8775.645,"text":"這個我想齁因為這裡面還是有幾個從112年度的部分還是有幾個它還是沒有達標的部分齁那這幾個到底我們要怎麼去轉型或怎麼去做是不是個別資料給我辦公室那我改組決議是謝謝委員好46案改組決議47案田委員不在召喚通過好49案田委員不在召喚通過好"},{"start":8777.797,"end":8779.277,"text":"農業天然災害救助基金本期的53案改成主決議"},{"start":8807.073,"end":8819.184,"text":"同樣,我這個跟前面那個其實那個都差不多就是我改組決議好,54案改成組決議來52案改組決議來處理漁業發展基金54案跟55案停飛你要改組決議嗎好,54案改組決議55案提案委員會再遭略"},{"start":8834.852,"end":8861.066,"text":"第5農產品受盡頭損害救助基金56案到60案我們一起處理56案到60案我一起處理那本席的60案改成主決議有陳亭飛、蔡玉瑜、邱毅宜、謝英鳳那亭飛你要改主決議嗎"},{"start":8862.659,"end":8866.081,"text":"主席,我又講五十八案五十八案五十八案改組決議主席主席,那個"},{"start":8885.99,"end":8900.936,"text":"主席,剛剛那個47案我改組決議47啊?好,47案這個賴樂榮改組決議所以56案跟58案跟60案改成組決議那參與在業務不在的照列61跟62本席62案改成組決議先為我們不在的照列63、64兩位為我們不在的照列"},{"start":8912.636,"end":8917.878,"text":"農村再生基金66案本席改組決議67到71一併處理70案本席提案改成組決議"},{"start":8934.724,"end":8941.889,"text":"改正主決議好 全體委員69案改正主決議區議員提案委員不在均照列來 主決議72案"},{"start":8944.588,"end":8960.077,"text":"軍照辦理 照案通過73案 軍照辦理 照案通過74案 軍照辦理 照案通過75案 軍照辦理 照案通過76案 軍照辦理 照案通過77案 軍照辦理 照案通過78案 軍照辦理 照案通過79案 軍照辦理 照案通過80案 軍照辦理 照案通過81案 軍照辦理 照案通過80案 軍照辦理 照案通過83案 軍照辦理"},{"start":8967.577,"end":8993.734,"text":"遭案通過八十四案遭案通過新增八十四之三那個農業部意見遭案通過另外這個農民退休基金提案這個八十五案遭案通過八十六案遭案通過八十七案遭案通過八十八案遭案通過八十九案遭案通過"},{"start":9000.536,"end":9021.11,"text":"等一下我還是請教一下本席提案是89案就是我們在講那個農民保險參與的人數其實還是沒有到三成雖然你們說遵照辦理我其實很想聽一下你們有沒有什麼精進計畫是可以來鼓勵更多的農民參與農民退休"},{"start":9023.171,"end":9047.423,"text":"報告委員我們這一部分已經針對目標族群現在清尤其是青農有農保資格的這樣的一個農民我們都把名單還沒有加入農保的清出來會逐一透過農會宣導鼓勵他們來加入那他們如果說對於說可能收入不穩定的部分我們會鼓勵他是不是先從額度"},{"start":9048.623,"end":9065.267,"text":"從一趴兩趴先來加後面陸續鼓勵他們來增加後續有相關的輔導措施那我們召喚通過來這個請宣讀啊請宣讀協商結論來來不是"},{"start":9148.609,"end":9149.149,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9173.647,"end":9174.948,"text":"先讓部長看一下"},{"start":9206.664,"end":9207.045,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9225.612,"end":9250.752,"text":"今天有零事所嗎?沒有齁?我提一個建議啦就是說一個是我上次有跟您提到那個零下經濟的品項是不是有要再研議再多增加這個部分那什麼時候會有一個初步的構思出來比如說我一直在推動的那個咖啡的種植它是不是也能夠符合我們零下經濟的品項"},{"start":9251.893,"end":9252.093,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9270.179,"end":9273.821,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":9295.974,"end":9321.004,"text":"未來在種植或者是各單位在種植這些行道樹的品項上面是有所依歸的能不能去做這一些規劃整理好 這部分其實我們都已經有了然後我們會提供資料給委員那林市所另外還有一個叫做種樹諮詢中心那即使是私人部門都可以打電話來洽詢然後他們也會協助做必要的這個幫忙規劃"},{"start":9322.384,"end":9342.904,"text":"你那個種樹諮詢中心講的是比如說我們現在在講那個碳費的部分或者是說各縣因為各縣市政府他們很少應該很少會去打電話問你們可以種什麼樹啦但是通常都是大家自己決定所以呢過去比如說種了很多黑板樹"},{"start":9344.145,"end":9363.721,"text":"所以那黑板樹其實是一個不是太好的樹種對所以那有沒有辦法去協助把這些行道樹去做一些汰換啦等等至少你給各縣市政府有一個有一個依歸嘛我們現在一北中南東都有對我覺得這個部分可能是理解水"},{"start":9364.341,"end":9391.432,"text":"也蠻重要的一個議題一句話,因為剛剛主席上廁所跟著上廁所回來就預算又過了但是我還是要講一下這個47這個執行力的部分還是希望能夠持續提升好不好就是47案的部分我覺得蘇財跟部長還是要持續努力我覺得現在那樣的生活方式包括我們的一些山區的其實很有潛力的那我認為這塊應該還是要持續的加油好不好,預算我們有意見上廁所趕得回來你覺得趕不回來"},{"start":9393.749,"end":9419.105,"text":"那個新增84支市新增84支市農業部預券新增84支市84支市在哪邊是陳廷輝委員的那個那個我們修正文字修正後我們做文字修正建議那個文字修正怎麼修正你唸一下唸一下"},{"start":9429.107,"end":9446.103,"text":"就是針對公糧收購價格建議農業部應依照成本、前年度的災損狀況以及稻作命機的調整比例訂定固定時間的滾動檢討機制讓農民有所本好按照修正文件通過"},{"start":9447.335,"end":9448.957,"text":"好 這個請宣讀協商簽約"},{"start":9468.035,"end":9468.255,"text":"主席"},{"start":9491.999,"end":9507.786,"text":"基本上我們這邊寫固定時間齁因為整個現在從我們這次的到做的一個政策的一個分析的檢討不是啦部長你聽錯我的意思我是說你要訂定這個固定時間你這個制度你要多久可以給人家啦延益啦"},{"start":9509.864,"end":9511.947,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9528.167,"end":9530.108,"text":"本席對各位的發言都很容易感動"},{"start":9556.938,"end":9557.56,"text":"現在是宣讀協商結論"},{"start":9572.016,"end":9598.072,"text":"先讀協商結論第一案預算照列第二三案凍結20萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第四案預算照列第五六案預算照列本二案改為主決議第七案凍結50萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第八案凍結500萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第九案凍結200萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":9599.213,"end":9611.001,"text":"主決議部分第10案到22案及22-1案均照案通過第23案預算照列第24案凍結200萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第25案凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第26案"},{"start":9618.246,"end":9644.571,"text":"動輒一百萬元提出書面報告後使得動之。 主決議部分第27案、28案照案通過。 第29案修正通過。 第30案到35案均照案通過。 第36案動輒兩千萬元提出書面報告後使得動之。 第37至39案動輒五千萬元提出書面報告後使得動之。 第40案、41案預算照列其中41案改為主決議。"},{"start":9646.051,"end":9667.933,"text":"第41案均改為主決議第42案預算照列本案改為主決議第43案預算照列第44案撤案第45案預算照列本案改為主決議第46案到49案預算照列其中46案47案48案均改為主決議第50案預算照列"},{"start":9668.493,"end":9677.622,"text":"第51案徹案、第52案、53案預算照列本2案均改為主決議第54案、55案預算照列其中54案改為主決議第56案到60案預算照列其中56案、58案、60案均改為主決議"},{"start":9684.969,"end":9704.403,"text":"第61案、62案預算照列其中第62案改為主決議第63案、64案預算照列第65案、66案預算照列其中66案改為主決議第67案到71案預算照列其中69案、70案均改為主決議主決議部分"},{"start":9705.683,"end":9731.901,"text":"七十二案到八十四案及八十四之一案、八十四之二案、八十四之三案均照案通過八十四之四案修正通過農退基金主決議五案四案、八十五案到八十九案均照案通過宣讀完畢好請問各位同仁有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列請問有異議"},{"start":9733.567,"end":9752.841,"text":"無異議通過114年度農業部所屬非營業基金審查完略等一下齁還沒休息之前這個請張啟凱發表一下演說保定你不是演說保定你寫就好了剛我辦公室傳了那個新聞過來他說在立法院財政委員會16號審查的時候你曾經針對農業發展基金被我砍了"},{"start":9759.13,"end":9778.458,"text":"3.7億你說農業部長陳俊濟說會使得今年協助農民的部分無法執行你剛又說沒有我提醒你先去問一下柯建民、柯總召那一天的討論過程是這樣子朝野協商過程是這樣子我很清楚跟你講我堅持要刪減這3.7億吳思堯跑來說吳思堯說可以砍"},{"start":9783.504,"end":9784.705,"text":"農業發展基金本來就有錢啊你先執行"},{"start":9800.692,"end":9829.787,"text":"你產銷這一塊已經做了已經60幾趴對不對柯總召來跟我協調的時候第一個他說可以砍一億嘛他說可以砍一億沒有聽我講完他說可以砍一億更重要的往上一層走就不會影響到你所有的產銷平衡嘛所以你去問清楚第一個不要再講什麼會影響到幫助農民這一塊第一個這是不會受影響的第二更重要的北檢這邊都已經扣押七千多萬啊你現在責任應該是自己把錢追回來就跟就位安定基金現在審計部要求"},{"start":9831.032,"end":9831.372,"text":"農民退休基金"},{"start":9852.512,"end":9880.606,"text":"我現在想起來那不是在財政委員跟委員講的是進到財政委員會之前的一些記者在問那問了有兩個重點一個重點就是說這個經費刪了以後對農民後面會不會有影響我說會我有說會但是相對的就這個部分委員剛才講的就是說我這個基金有沒有可以再上層但是在你的議案裡面並沒有說可以做科目的調整"},{"start":9881.446,"end":9903.151,"text":"當你沒有辦法做科目的調整的話就會比較困難啊我老實講然後第二點就是外界誤認為你刪的是114年的所以我特別去澄清齁我說委員所刪的是113年的那針對114年的部分我們會盡可能的跟委員去做一些說明瞭解他的重要性我就這樣說明好"},{"start":9904.912,"end":9929.885,"text":"113年這個算是有很明確不是114嘛不是明年那第二個就剛講了對農民算是不會有影響因為那一天老講朝野協商大話來會同意你們可以用上一層的錢來說好不好必須要可以超支併結算才可以處理不然審計部就不同意結算了你怎麼併結算不行啦不可能啦你現在重點是把錢去追回來啦你把錢追回來我就會同意你用上一層的錢不要影響到農民"},{"start":9931.606,"end":9937.051,"text":"本次會議通過此決議,文字授權主席及議事委員整理。 今日所立一審處委員會,先休息。"},{"start":10251.182,"end":10251.802,"text":"二號二號二號"}]}},{"id":"16377","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16377","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e2d34adc683ae39a15a6f7e0142ff58d878081dad70f87c46d29ccd1b9cc5643b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度。（處理）\n【12月18日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-18","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-18T08:31:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-18T11:00:00+08:00","duration":8888,"影片長度":"02:28:08","委員發言時間":"08:31:52 - 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署一千九百七十二萬九千元照列第92項臺北國稅局三億兩千零二十二萬兩千元照列第93項"},{"start":2018.709,"end":2029.797,"text":"高雄國稅局6907萬9千元照列第94項北區國稅局及所屬9995萬元照列第95項中區國稅局及所屬2640萬6千元照列第96項南區國稅局及所屬2487萬1千元照列第97項關務署及所屬2561萬7千元照列第98項國有財產署及所屬5億321萬7千元照列第99項財政資訊中心8千元照列"},{"start":2046.776,"end":2066.372,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心稅出預算部分審查結果。第十款財政部主管第一項財政部原列134億5605萬6千元簡列第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持30萬元含業務費20萬元第三幕促商業務向下"},{"start":2067.113,"end":2080.471,"text":"處計民間參與公共建設業務支業務費70萬元、共計檢列100萬元、科目均制型調整及均照列改列134億5506萬6千元本項提案一項保留送院會處理本項通過決議33項"},{"start":2082.694,"end":2087.357,"text":"國庫署原列1,143億6,593萬6千元,檢列第二幕,國庫業務160萬元,含業務費80萬元,燕酒管理作業50萬元。第四幕,國債付息向下,國債付息中債務費之債務利息10億元。第五幕,國債經理向下,國債經理中債務費之手續費500萬元,共計檢列10億660萬元。"},{"start":2107.671,"end":2117.236,"text":"科目軍自行調整區域軍造列改列為1133億5933萬6千元本項通過決議22項第11項財政資訊中心原列22億2405萬1千元檢列第二幕財政資訊業務310萬元含國稅核課系統及資料集中處理經費50萬元資通資源管理100萬元財政資料管理10萬元電子發票管理經費50萬元科目軍自行調整區域軍造列改列為22億2095萬"},{"start":2137.165,"end":2154.934,"text":"一千元本項通過決議三項有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整三中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分有關財政部主管債務基金中央政府債務基金審查結果一債務基金中央政府債務基金"},{"start":2157.182,"end":2184.137,"text":"約會計劃應依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整基金來源用途及依促依基金來源原列9129億6726萬5千元配合114年度中央政府總預算案審議結果簡列財政部國庫署第4目國債付息向下國債付息中債務費之債務利息10億元第5目國債經理向下國債經理中債務費之手續費500萬元本項應隨同修正簡列債務收入向下"},{"start":2184.897,"end":2190.442,"text":"財務事務費收入500萬元、財務複習收入11元、共計減略10億500萬元、區域均照列改列為9,119億6,226萬5千元、基金用途原列9,129億6,525萬1千元、配合114年度中央政府總預算案審議結果、減略財政部國庫署第4目、國債複習向下"},{"start":2205.696,"end":2224.829,"text":"國債複息中（債務費之債務利息10億元。第五目（國債經理向下（國債經理中（債務費之手續費500萬元本項應隨同修正簡略還本複息計劃向下（債務事務費支出500萬元（債務複息支出10億元共計簡略10億500萬元區域均造列改列為9,119億6,025萬1千元本期剩餘201萬4千元造列。3.截條工庫劣數"},{"start":2231.613,"end":2254.099,"text":"是通過決議兩項是中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案行政院稅率預算有關中央銀行股息紅利腳庫部分審查結果第五款營業營餘及失業收入第一項行政院第一幕營業基金營餘腳庫年月兩千億兩千九百一四萬兩千元系中央銀行股息紅利腳庫數暫照列是所屬營業基金審議確定後再行調整"},{"start":2255.039,"end":2271.797,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠審查結果。一、業務計畫因依據營業收支、金融保險成本轉投資、重大之建設事業及資金運用等項之審查結果隨從調整。二、營業收支"},{"start":2272.938,"end":2278.141,"text":"營業總收入4261億7779萬6千元照列營業總支出不含所得稅費用原列2508億5032萬3千元檢列一營業成本1億9870萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":2287.785,"end":2295.948,"text":"中央銀行金融保險成本向下利息費用19220萬元手續費用20萬元發行硬幣費用300萬元發行鈔券費用50萬元中央造幣廠銷售成本向下銷貨成本100萬元中央印製廠銷售成本向下銷貨成本180萬元二營業費用130萬元"},{"start":2308.755,"end":2324.26,"text":"中央銀行管理費用向下服務費用至專業服務費10萬元中央印製廠業務費用20萬元管理費用100萬元以上工具檢列2億元其餘均造列改列為2,506億5,032萬3千元稅前淨利原列1,753億2,747萬3千元增列2億元改列為1,755億2,747萬3千元省金融保險成本營業總支出應隨同調整是轉投資"},{"start":2336.084,"end":2350.531,"text":"計劃無列數五重大之建設事業四億八千一百二十七萬七千元照列六資金應用應依據營業收支金融保險成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大之建設事業等項之審查結果隨同調整七通過決議七三十項"},{"start":2351.951,"end":2379.703,"text":"113年11月28日報告事項邀請行政院主計總署陳主計長淑芝、省紀部陳省紀長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告並被質詢。討論事項一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總署暨省紀部、省紀部臺北市省紀處、省紀部新北市省紀處、省紀部桃園市省紀處、省紀部台中市省紀處、省紀部台南市省紀處、省紀部高雄市省紀處部分。二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":2380.143,"end":2404.443,"text":"有關直轄市及縣市政府﹐條整軍工教育人員待遇準備、災害準備金、第二預備金﹐報告、討論事項、合併詢答﹐經行政院常務副秘書長李國興、行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝、省進部省計長陳瑞敏提出報告後﹐繼而委員林德福等18人提出質詢﹐均經行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝等予以說明及答覆﹐委員李燕秀所提書面質詢、列入紀錄、刊登公報﹐"},{"start":2405.323,"end":2420.588,"text":"並請相關部會以書面答覆。委員質詢會期答覆或請補充資訊。請相關部會以周內書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其所定。決議一、報告說明及詢討完畢。二、114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總署及審計部、審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部台中市審計處、審計部台南市審計處、審計部高雄市審計處預算審查結果。"},{"start":2430.211,"end":2450.301,"text":"一、收入部分。第二款,罰款及賠償收入。第六項,主計總數無劣數。第六三項,審計部無劣數。第六四項,審計部臺北市審計處無劣數。第六十五項,審計部高雄市審計處無劣數。第三款,歸類收入。第五項,主計總數九萬七千元照列。第四款,財產收入。第七項,主計總數三十九萬六千元照列。第六九項,"},{"start":2451.361,"end":2473.762,"text":"審計部113萬3千元照列。（第七十項（審計部臺北市審計處3萬2千元照列。（第七十一項（審計部新北市審計處1萬2千元照列。（第七十二項（審計部臺灣市審計處5千元照列。（第七十三項（審計部臺中市審計處5千元照列。（第七十四項（審計部臺灣市審計處12萬7千元照列。（第七十五項（審計部高雄市審計處4萬元照列。（第七款其他收入（第七項"},{"start":2475.27,"end":2494.14,"text":"主計總數八十九萬五千元照列,第69項省基部一百零三萬五千元照列,第71項省基部臺北市省基處一萬六千元照列,第71項省基部新北市省基處八千元照列,第72項省基部臺南市省基處無列數,第73項省基部臺東市省基處無列數,第74項省基部臺南市省基處無列數。"},{"start":2495.08,"end":2520.852,"text":"二稅出部分第二款行政主管第二項主計總數原列十四億六千六百四十三萬一千元檢列第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持五十萬元第二幕國事普查業務一百萬元第八幕主計資訊業務一百二十萬元第九幕一般建築及設備第三節其他設備兩百萬元共計檢列四百七十萬元科目均自行調整區域均造列改列為十四億六千一百七十三萬一千元本項通過決議二十八項"},{"start":2521.812,"end":2542.605,"text":"第六款 監察案主管 第二項 審計部原列13億6千115萬5千元 檢列第一幕一般行政項下基本行政工作維持10萬元 辦公室務設備汰換及辦公廳設整修50萬元第二幕 中央政府審計項下 中央政府審計工作10萬元 共計檢列70萬元科目均自行調整 區域均照列改列為13億6千045萬5千元 本項通過決議17項第三項 審計部新北市審計處"},{"start":2548.329,"end":2551.953,"text":"天的財政委員會及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、高雄國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、北區國稅"},{"start":2564.365,"end":2583.693,"text":"審計部臺灣市審計處6,912萬6千元照列（第8項（審計部高雄市審計處8,335萬元照列（有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整（是（2014年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市政府調整軍工價人員待遇準備災害準備金第二預備金審查結果（"},{"start":2584.113,"end":2602.573,"text":"第二十六款直轄市級縣市政府第一項直轄市級縣市一般性補助款2501億1279萬元照列第二七款調整軍工校人員待遇準備99億3107萬9千元照列第二十八款災害準備金50億元照列第二九款第二預備金80億元照列宣讀完畢"},{"start":2605.077,"end":2628.801,"text":"好,謝謝齁,我們在場委員會打法定人數齁,我們議事就暫不確定,請議事先讀今日議程討論事項,繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度。宣布完畢好,我們來介紹一下在場的"},{"start":2633.72,"end":2654.311,"text":"委員齁陳玉珍齁大家好謝謝我昨天晚上在議場門口那個砸贏欸今天繼續跟大家奮鬥來介紹我們官員齁財政部的莊翠芸部長財政部會計處的李秋月處長處長齁國庫署的馬曉輝副署長我們署長怎麼沒來沒有他的預算是嗎"},{"start":2662.328,"end":2686.924,"text":"國共已經審過了,所以就可以不用來了沒關係,換換副署長來一下副稅署的宋秀玲署長、關務署的彭英偉署長、國有財產署的曾國基署長、臺北國稅局的吳蓮英局長、高雄國稅局的翁培佑局長、"},{"start":2689.382,"end":2702.171,"text":"北區國稅局的李怡惠局長、中區國稅局的樓美中局長、南區國稅局的李亞金局長、行政院主計總署的公務預算處的吳明修專委"},{"start":2706.413,"end":2714.84,"text":"我們先請議事人員宣讀今日審查預算案之審查項目及提案共124案預計宣讀的時間是15分鐘宣讀完畢後我們預計9點40分開始進行協商大家可以稍微輕鬆一下"},{"start":2725.709,"end":2740.437,"text":"五百一四年度中央政府總預算案財政部及所屬稅主預算稅主部分第十款財政部主管第三項負稅署兩百零四億三千六百零九萬兩千元第一幕一般行政三億九千九百零七萬一千元第二幕"},{"start":2740.857,"end":2765.124,"text":"日負稅業務兩千四百一十二萬一千元,第三目,統一發票給獎及推行一百八十七億七千四百七十二萬元,第四目,第一預備金十萬元,第五目,地方政府稅款短少補助十二億三千八百零八萬元,第四項,臺北國稅局二十七億七千六百六十二萬八千元,第一目,一般行政二十三億四千三百七十三萬九千元,第二目,國稅基正業務三千八百四十五"},{"start":2767.525,"end":2782.234,"text":"三億八千四百五十八萬兩千元,第三目一般建築及設備四千七百九十萬七千元,第四目第一倍金四十萬元,第五項高雄國稅局十八億三千六百四十四萬兩千元,第一目一般行政十六億四千九百萬一千元,第二目"},{"start":2782.874,"end":2807.131,"text":"國稅基增業務一億六千四百一十一萬一千元,第三目一般建築及設備兩千三百一十三萬元,第四目第一倍金二十萬元,第六項北區國稅局及所屬三十億兩千七百六十萬八千元,第一目一般行政二十五億五千五百零一萬八千元,第二目國稅基增業務三億八千四百三十三萬五千元,第三目一般建築及設備八千七百八十五萬五千元,第四目第一倍金四十萬元,第七項"},{"start":2807.751,"end":2814.598,"text":"中區國稅局及所屬25億5652萬9千元第一幕一般行政22億3963萬元第二幕國稅基正業務2億6489萬3千元第三幕一般建築及設備5150萬6千元第四幕地域費金50萬元"},{"start":2824.969,"end":2832.997,"text":"第八項（南區國稅局及所屬（21億1096萬1千元（第一幕（一般行政17億5470萬1千元（第二幕（國稅基政業務1億8130萬7千元（第三幕（一般建築及設備7445萬3千元（第四幕（第一域未經50萬元（第九項（關務署及所屬（"},{"start":2842.907,"end":2869.89,"text":"七十五億一千九百四十二萬三千元第一幕一般行政六十億一千六百三十萬六千元第二幕關稅業務十五億二十六萬七千元第三幕第一預備金兩百八十五萬元第十項國有財產署及所屬三十二億四千六百七十萬一千元第一幕一般行政九億九千七百三十四萬一千元第二幕國有財產業務二十億七千七百九十六萬兩千元第三幕一般建築及設備一億七千零七十九萬八千元第四幕第一預備金六十萬元"},{"start":2871.806,"end":2882.389,"text":"融資財源調度部分（中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關融資財源調度部分（編列債務支償還1415億元（並稅率稅率稅出剩餘208億9728萬1千元（合共上需融資調度數1206億271萬9千元（以舉借債務706億271萬9千元（及已用以前年度稅計剩餘500億元於米坪（"},{"start":2899.454,"end":2924.23,"text":"委員提案部分負稅署共45案第一案一般行政減劣50萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案第二案基本行政工作維持凍結300萬元委員黃珍珊等三人提案第三案基本行政工作維持凍結300萬元委員黃珍珊等三人提案第四案基本行政工作維持凍結300萬元委員黃珍珊等三人提案第五案"},{"start":2925.151,"end":2949.965,"text":"基本行政工作維持凍結300萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第6案基本行政工作維持凍結300萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第7案基本行政工作維持凍結300萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第8案基本行政工作維持凍結300萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第9案基本行政工作維持凍結200萬元委員郭國文等三人提案。第10案基本行政工作維持"},{"start":2951.605,"end":2967.43,"text":"凍結100萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第11案負稅約約減約100萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案。第12案負稅約約凍結200萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案。第13案負稅約約200萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案。第14案"},{"start":2967.85,"end":2968.47,"text":"提案。提案。"},{"start":2994.121,"end":3019.477,"text":"復稅向下,革新稅制改善稅政經費,凍結30%委員王世堅等3人提案。第21案,革新稅制改善稅政經費,凍結20%委員吳立華等3人提案。第22案,革新稅制改善稅政經費,凍結50萬元委員郭國恩等3人提案。第23案,革新稅制改善稅政經費,凍結10%委員吳立華等3人提案。第4案,革新稅制改善稅政經費,置業務費"},{"start":3021.718,"end":3042.114,"text":"委員顏寬恆等三案提案。（第25案革新稅政稅制改善稅政經費向下優惠費凍結5%委員李燕秀等三案提案。（第26案租稅加入與宣傳及健全風紀經費向下一般事務費減列25萬元委員王世堅等三案提案。（第27案"},{"start":3044.146,"end":3061.718,"text":"稅務集合及激增業務經費凍結20%委員王世堅等三人提案。（第28案稅務集合及激增業務經費凍結30萬元委員大會員等三人提案。（第29案稅務集合及激增業務經費凍結30萬元委員大會員等三人提案。（第30案稅務集合及激增業務經費凍結30萬元委員大會員等三人提案。（第30案稅務集合及激增業務經費凍結30萬元委員大會員等三人提案。（"},{"start":3064.86,"end":3080.356,"text":"收積合及積增業務經費凍結5%委員李韻秀等3人提案。（第31案統一發票給獎及推行檢閱1000萬元委員陳玉珍等3人提案。（第32案統一發票給獎及推行凍結1000萬元委員陳玉珍等3人提案。（第33案統一發票給獎及推行凍結100萬元委員李坤誠等3人提案。（第34案"},{"start":3088.325,"end":3110.057,"text":"同意發表給獎及推行向下委辦費減列五億元委員賴世保等三任提案。（第三十五案同意發表給獎及推行向下一般事務費減列兩千萬元委員賴世保等三任提案。（第三十六案同意發表給獎及推行向下一般事務費凍結一千萬元減列五百萬元凍結一千萬元委員郭國文等三任提案。（第三十七案"},{"start":3112.366,"end":3122.995,"text":"同意發票給獎及推行向下業務費之一般事務費中已辦理同意發票給獎及推行應用平民媒體、廣播媒體、網路媒體和社群媒體及電視媒體辦理同意發票政策宣導"},{"start":3125.137,"end":3151.284,"text":"凍結10%委員王煥輝等三案提案。（第38案地方政府遺產及贈與稅款減少短少補助減列235萬元委員李坤城等三案提案。（第三屆案主決議稅收預測準確性有關政府稅出資源的配置與財政收支平衡原要求經濟相關預測模型避其估測值貼近時增數並提出書面報告委員羅明才等三案提案。（第40案"},{"start":3152.825,"end":3171.662,"text":"請財政部賦稅署針對稅客收入預估經濟相關預證模型提出專案報告為嚴寬衡等三案提案。第41案要求財政部賦稅署因事實檢討相關免稅額、課稅額及課稅級距的調整機制減少民眾負擔並提出書面報告為羅明彩等三案提案。第42案"},{"start":3172.502,"end":3200.461,"text":"請財政部賦稅署以恢復107年刪除之所得稅法第5條第6款之最高45%課稅級距為提提出書面報告為王世堅等三案提案第43案請財政部賦稅署就114年有關遺產稅及贈與稅的編列原則為遺產稅及贈與稅具有機會稅域性質經參考近5年該二稅全國實證書扣除大額案件繳納稅額後餘額之平均數提出檢討並提出書面報告為李坤成等三案提案第44案"},{"start":3202.482,"end":3227.016,"text":"就建立小規模營業人營業稅起徵點檢討機制及是否延長小規模營業人導入行動支付適用租稅優惠提出順便報告。委員黃珊珊等三人提案第45案要求財政部所屬及負稅屬未來規劃多元租稅先導若辦理抽獎活動的必要應比照公益彩券與統一發票使用開獎機號碼求開獎模式並現場直播以其公平合理及具公信性"},{"start":3228.403,"end":3244.728,"text":"並提出具體作法。委員賴思寶等三案提案。臺北國稅局提案共五案。第一案一般行政向下業務費凍結版住委員李燕秀等三案提案。第二案直接稅積增業務費凍結版住委員李燕秀等三案提案。第三案"},{"start":3246.867,"end":3266.48,"text":"稅款徵收及處理向下一般事務費減逆150萬元委員代事保等三案提案。（法案兼處理凍結20%人員寬恒等三案提案。（構建辦公道而向下之設備及投資之房屋建築及設備凍結20%人員寬恒等三案提案。（高雄國稅局提案共五案。（"},{"start":3268.598,"end":3276.423,"text":"基本行政工作維持向下一般事務費-100萬元-400等三人提案國稅基增業務-50萬元-50萬元等三人提案法務案件處理凍結20%為延寬案等三人提案電子處理及應用向下資訊服務費-100萬元-400等三人提案"},{"start":3291.08,"end":3299.377,"text":"新建辦公大樓向下設備及投資之一、房屋建築及設備費、凍結板製作時文、延寬本等三項提案、北區國稅局提案共六案。第一案"},{"start":3300.649,"end":3322.086,"text":"一般行政檢略200萬元委員陳玉珍等三案提案。第二案一般行政凍結100萬元委員黃珊珊等三案提案。第三案基本行政工作維持向下一般事務費檢略100萬元委員賴思寶等三案提案。第四案稅款徵收及處理向下一般事務費檢略120萬元委員賴思寶等三案提案。第五案法務案件處理凍結20%委員顏寬衡等三案提案。第六案"},{"start":3323.067,"end":3351.017,"text":"各建辦公道樓向下設備及投資之房屋建築及設備費凍結20%委員圓框橫等三案提案中區國稅局提案共六案第一案一般行政減略200萬元委員陳玉珍等三案提案第二案基本行政工作維持向下雜項設備費減略100萬元委員賴世保等三案提案第三案稅款徵收及處理向下通訊類減略100萬元委員賴世保等三案提案第四案房屋案件處理凍結20%委員圓框橫等三案提案第五案"},{"start":3352.218,"end":3354.166,"text":"電子處理局應用向下資訊服務費減約100萬元為賣世保等3案。（第6案"},{"start":3358.666,"end":3385.464,"text":"各間辦公大樓向下設備及投資之房屋建築及設備費凍結20%為人緣寬衡等三案提案南區國稅局提案共事案第一案一般行政減略200萬元為人成居增等三案提案第二案稅款徵收及處理向下一般事務費減略80萬元為人代資保等三案提案第三案法案件處理凍結20%為人緣寬衡等三案提案第四案新建辦公大樓之設備及投資向下房屋建築及設備凍結20%為人緣寬衡等三案提案關務署"},{"start":3388.874,"end":3408.849,"text":"提案共31案第一案一般行政凍結五百萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案第二案一般行政凍結一百萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案第三案基本行政工作為止凍結三百萬元委員郭國恩等三人提案第四案基本行政工作為止向下一般事務費減六兩百萬元委員王世堅等三人提案第五案"},{"start":3409.79,"end":3425.434,"text":"基本行政工作維持向下﹐房屋建築養護費檢列500萬元委員賴思寶等3案提案。第6案關稅約約檢列200萬元委員陳玉珍等3案提案。第7案關稅約約檢列100萬元委員陳玉珍等3案提案。第8案關稅約約凍結1000萬元委員陳玉珍等3案提案。第9案關稅約約凍結1000萬元委員陳玉珍等3案提案。第10案關稅約約凍結500萬元委員黃珊珊等3案提案。第11案關稅約約凍結500萬元委員黃珊珊等3案提案。"},{"start":3436.877,"end":3465.476,"text":"第12案關稅業務凍結500萬元為黃霜山等三人提案。第13案關稅業務凍結500萬元為黃霜山等三人提案。第14案關稅業務向下設施及機械設備養護費減六六百萬元為麥斯堡等三人提案。第15案基增業務減六三百萬元為王世堅等三人提案。第16案基增業務凍結1000萬元為麥惠元等三人提案。第17案基增業務凍結300萬元為郭國仁等三人提案。第18案"},{"start":3468.058,"end":3479.886,"text":"凍結30%委員王思堅等3人提案第19案查緝業務向下業務費凍結300萬元委員郭國仁等3人提案第20案查緝業務向下旅客行李檢查及貨物查緝處理等經費凍結10%委員吳立華等3人提案"},{"start":3484.469,"end":3500.258,"text":"第21案關稅資料處理凍結25%委員王世堅等三人提案。第二十二案關稅資料處理支向下業務費減逆200萬元凍結5%委員李燕秀等三人提案。第二十三案數位海關再造計畫凍結五分之一委員廷安等三人提案。第二十四案"},{"start":3501.418,"end":3525.681,"text":"數位海關再招計劃凍結十分之一委員李坤城等三人提案。第25案數位海關再招計劃凍結五百萬元委員郭國文等三人提案。第26案數位海關再招計劃凍結五百萬元委員吳立華等三人提案。第27案數位海關再招計劃向下資訊服務費檢列一百萬元委員賴世保等三人提案。第28案數位海關再招計劃向下資訊軟硬體設備費檢列五百萬元委員賴世保等三人提案。第29案"},{"start":3526.341,"end":3545.677,"text":"次世代人工智慧輔助棄屍計劃凍結五分之一委員嚴寬恒等三人提案。（第三十案次世代人工智慧輔助棄屍計劃向下業務費凍結兩百萬元委員吳立華等三人提案。（第三十一案主決議要求關務署除因強化偽競品影像樣本的風物性以工生程式AI學習更需經資訊"},{"start":3547.915,"end":3567.681,"text":"已檢官員足以檢視AI生成至影像合格後,使能納入訓練資料及運用,以確保影像的真實性,並提出書面報告,委員樓明彩等三人提案。國有財產署提案共22案。第一案,基本行政工作人員向下一班事務費減略200萬元,委員賴思寶等三人提案。第二案,國有財產業務凍結2%時,委員黃山山等三人提案。第三案,國有財產業務凍結5%時,委員黃山山等三人提案。"},{"start":3572.742,"end":3599.285,"text":"第四案,國有財產業務凍結5%,委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第五案,國有財產業務凍結5%,委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第六案,國有財產業務凍結5%,委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第七案,國有財產業務凍結5%,委員黃珊珊等三人提案。第八案,國有財產業務向下,國有財產結收保管凍結100萬元,委員郭國仁等三人提案。第九案,國有財產結收保管向下業務費凍結5%,委員李燕秀等三人提案。第十案,"},{"start":3600.226,"end":3627.456,"text":"國有財產管理處分凍結九千萬元委員賴慧雲等三頁提案。（第十之一案國有財產管理處分凍結一千萬元委員賴慧雲等三頁提案。（第十二案國有財產管理處分向下業務費減略一千萬元凍結百分之五委員李燕秀等三頁提案。（第十三案國有財產管理處分向下業務費凍結百分之五分之一委員顏寬恆等三頁提案。（第十四案辦理國有非公用財產出租、換優及租金收繳"},{"start":3629.498,"end":3653.353,"text":"凍結5%委員李用秀等3人提案。（第15案國有財產管理處分向下國有非公用文化資產修復及管理維護計劃第4年經費凍結500萬元委員吳立法等3人提案。（第16案國有非公用文化資產修復及管理維護計劃凍結200萬元委員郭國仁等3人提案。（第17案國有財產改良利用凍結100萬元委員郭國仁等3人提案。（第18案"},{"start":3654.754,"end":3682.515,"text":"國有公用財產向下業務費凍結五分之一委員袁寬恆等三人提案第19案國有公用財產向下機械設備費減虐120萬元委員代事保等三人提案第20案國有公用財產向下協助各級政府機關學校取得因公務公共所需國有土地加速國家建設凍結20%委員吳立華等三人提案第21案營建工程凍結10%委員黃珊珊等三人提案"},{"start":3682.975,"end":3695.849,"text":"第22案主決議請財政部國有財產署以如何精進國有非公用土地公開招標設定地產權執行呈下委員提出書面報告委員王世堅等三項提案宣傳完畢"},{"start":4174.701,"end":4198.153,"text":"好,我們這麼多委員到齊,我們先確認議事錄對於剛宣讀的議事錄有沒有意義?沒有沒有意義,好,就確定了。好,我們今天審查總共原來有124案,但是經過這個各個署,各個局,我們財務部的所屬的單位充分溝通以後,事實上剩下案數只有大概30幾案,那所以如果等一下"},{"start":4199.013,"end":4199.933,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":4230.325,"end":4239.25,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":4251.533,"end":4252.034,"text":"個月內提書面。"},{"start":4268.72,"end":4283.59,"text":"第七案（第八案主決議（第九案就是凍結一百五十萬（這跟前面那些案子一樣就並在一起了（接著第十案改組決議（十一案主決議（十二案主決議（"},{"start":4287.282,"end":4313.393,"text":"十三案主決議十四案主決議十五案凍結五十萬兩個月內提報告十六案主決議十七案五十萬凍結五十萬兩個月內提報告十八案改組決議十九案改組決議二十案往事監委員您的案子這個有溝通成功嗎"},{"start":4314.878,"end":4315.879,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":4328.342,"end":4329.163,"text":"月18日及19日兩月18日及19日兩月18日及19日"},{"start":4345.196,"end":4360.932,"text":"分消費行為的一個政策目的,簡單講我們現在都是鼓勵去買電動機車或電動汽車,如果是電動機車、汽車的話他是可以免稅的,那如果你是買非電動汽車的話,原則上就是要課汽機車的貨物稅。"},{"start":4362.734,"end":4388.471,"text":"那運花稅的部分因為他是地方政府重要的財源那我們以前是有講說如果我們現在是課碳費嘛未來他會檢討碳費的實施成效之後如果需要改課碳稅的時候我們會把相關的稅務一起整併進去包含剛才我講汽機車貨稅運花稅這些全部都會整併進去那漁獲稅的部分其實我們已經提出修法案了所以這個部分其實我們是有去做改革的"},{"start":4388.891,"end":4409.538,"text":"那目前汽機車的貨物稅的部分只是之前我們就已經特別增訂了電動車免稅的是之前就做改革了但我這跟委員報告所以我是不是可以拜託委員就建議委員說建前委員說是不是可以改成主決議然後我們提提出所汽機車貨物稅、融化稅及遺留稅稅制稅證前草的書面報告"},{"start":4413.86,"end":4415.123,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":4424.403,"end":4449.474,"text":"才給予一些還有電動車要不然就是二沖程去換新的四沖程你們是這個方式可是那是有救車的部分那一些年輕人工作崗位學校剛畢業他們有救車啊他在鼓勵什麼結果他現在買一部機車六七萬裡面佔了兩萬多元是貨物稅"},{"start":4453.656,"end":4473.131,"text":"臺北國稅金比例之高。第二點娛樂現在我們物價波動小市民已經過得夠苦了娛樂一下要打娛樂稅根本沒多少錢那你們現在的改革就是說授權地方政府去決定地方政府自己也沒什麼錢啊"},{"start":4474.753,"end":4494.073,"text":"他對這個部分他也很摳啊所以這個部分根本就是要由中央做一個決策尤其娛樂稅的部分看看電影這種娛樂那其他這個欣賞樂團啊藝文表演啊這些是文化藝術的提升這本來就應該獎勵的嘛"},{"start":4496.724,"end":4522.94,"text":"那綠色碳稅你像燃料費那些去徵收那個改天啊像你們說那個高爾夫球稅這些都可以事實上該收的是他的這個綠色的稅制去統一去改革才對幣也正名乎嘛那你你們我總結我後面還有好幾條我是要跟你們說那個負稅署齁"},{"start":4524.667,"end":4529.512,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度。"},{"start":4547.89,"end":4571.807,"text":"所以他不會去想到要稅制要調整要改革的部分啊所以你要想你認為針對稅的部分該不該這樣像關稅汽汽車的這個關稅早就該調降我們17.5欸你們還講的跟N4的一樣說啊我們已經降過降到17.5這在國外全世界先進國家那日本2.5美國的0"},{"start":4575.409,"end":4600.951,"text":"大多數國家都在個位數5%以下我們高到17.5可以說亞洲國家我們最高的這些你們要觀念要改變不要推給經濟部因為經濟部他的立場就是通通都不要變通通都是保護我們這些國產業者就國產業者這些阿斗還要保護他們保護70年了還要保護多久"},{"start":4601.391,"end":4601.571,"text":"主席貴先進了"},{"start":4623.507,"end":4642.312,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4642.452,"end":4663.038,"text":"就改成10%啦齁但是要專案報告這個一定要報告因為這個太重要了貨物稅、印花稅、遺留稅這每一個稅都值得大家好好的討論我覺得再花點時間再花點時間他只有凍結10%一毛錢沒有砍你啊齁但主要的重點在於再來做一次專案報告了就這樣子了"},{"start":4670.241,"end":4685.11,"text":"王世堅委員提出這個案子是金額不大但意義很大包括本席長年以來對年輕人的照顧事實上我是最重視的"},{"start":4686.277,"end":4714.81,"text":"所以年輕人他不能買車就買機車就你剛剛所提到的機車要課重稅這個是要講起來我們應該要多多來調整一下只要對年輕人好的我們應該要做一個實際的一個調整還有包括娛樂稅在立法院的財委會一致不分朝野大家都覺得這個已經是不合時宜的應該要廢除了結果"},{"start":4716.356,"end":4739.643,"text":"財政部報產手缺就死咬著不放講了很多的理由但是部長你要知道一年就是十幾億本席一直在講說我們今年的稅收會超徵大家可能還不知道精確的數字今年大概稅收又超徵五千億五千億"},{"start":4744.759,"end":4767.871,"text":"本席一直講到說不然你就每個人發紅包一萬塊與其亂亂用倒不如放在每個人的荷包裡面因為現在的整個經濟情況人民苦哈哈剛剛賴委員在講說去小診所掛號費以前一百塊現在剩多少一百五十塊漲五十趴欸"},{"start":4769.425,"end":4793.832,"text":"還有其他啦接著瓦斯也要調漲便當都不要講,便當已經講了很多了以前雞腿便當都六七十現在一百多一百三一百五都有所以真的我們希望說所謂的稅制改革重點是要來照顧這些辛苦的老百姓那剛還講個印花稅這也是不合時宜啊"},{"start":4794.452,"end":4809.555,"text":"每次在這邊重複的討論又討論其實每次討論的就是大概一年十幾億十幾億的事情花了大家很多的時間總共加起來一百多億今年稅收超徵五千億全部都有找啦"},{"start":4810.703,"end":4812.526,"text":"三十八二十八都可以"},{"start":4824.94,"end":4825.36,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4855.08,"end":4871.418,"text":"一人（過年要快到了（普發紅包一萬塊（看看還沒有機會（努力一下（謝謝謝謝劉委員 吳秉立委員我們今天的審預算喔（不要說那個中風的啦 你要普發一萬塊這是你的主張 這個主張要經過本院立法"},{"start":4872.139,"end":4887.612,"text":"立法完之後行政院才能編預算編預算才能執行照你這樣的程序來講不知道已經多久了我現在先講一個我們今天要處理預算的程序2212224這四案都是同一個項目的凍結案是不是這四案一起處理"},{"start":4888.613,"end":4914.171,"text":"第二個我要跟大家講當年印花稅是在蘇貞昌院長的時候要取消當年帶頭反對的就是柯文哲市長所有的地方政府的縣市長都反對結果我們這幾個立委坐在這邊要叫財政部說你把印花稅拿掉人家行政院都已經拿掉而且都送醫院到立法院來了而且還表達說地方政府少多少補多少"},{"start":4915.172,"end":4915.593,"text":"中華民國財政委員會議"},{"start":4934.907,"end":4954.436,"text":"所以我是覺得最後一個我要再表達一點我反對專報如果後面的召委認為很重要他單獨排案來報告今天這個還是循例就經過書面報告之後就同意開始要凍結18還是怎麼樣那如果專報我反對如果專報就保留送院會寫上黃珊珊委員"},{"start":4957.913,"end":4984.826,"text":"好我想還是要說明一下其實這些地方稅不核實已經很久了我想我們諮詢的時候都有提到剛剛講的印花稅沒錯當時蘇院長拿掉之後我在臺北市我來帶頭到立法院來請委員幫忙為什麼因為你沒有替代稅源臺北市每年的印花稅將近45億同樣的你要一拿掉可以要找到替代財源所以對地方政府來說他是替代財源的問題"},{"start":4986.192,"end":5014.541,"text":"但是他只有補一年從頭到尾所有中央給我們的地方就是第一年我會補你之後不知道所以重點在這裡所以印花稅我們認為他已經是民國不知道幾年一二十年的時候定的而且時代的進步有沒有什麼所謂的發票單據這些東西都已經那個歷史的過程印花稅本身就是一個非常非常老舊的稅第二個娛樂稅現在雖然放給地方政府但地方政府其實也不敢"},{"start":5015.174,"end":5023.678,"text":"月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18日至9月18"},{"start":5036.963,"end":5037.583,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":5061.63,"end":5089.744,"text":"提給財委會那財委會要盯著他們這些稅制改革的進度跟進程這三個稅是中華民國稅制上面的違章建築我希望他們盡快把它排除第二個你要把地方稅拿掉跟地方政府要好好的溝通最重要是你要幫他找到替代的財源剛剛羅委員講的就是我們如果超徵這麼多所以這次為什麼要修財化法這還是源頭之一嘛好不好謝謝等一下還有第二個我補充一句就好了就是剛剛講的"},{"start":5091.462,"end":5114.471,"text":"要替地方政府找替代財源我們本委員會有通過財政紀律法我們今天動輒要求財政部要把這些稅免掉我們也要替財政部找替代財源不然他們也會違反財政紀律法所以我是覺得大家不要說我站在中央我現在不管地方地方的事情我們幫他解決不是這樣我們中央跟地方是夥伴關係他們不是跟我們不是隸屬關係"},{"start":5115.911,"end":5133.859,"text":"好那我來總結一下齁這個這些稅裡頭尤其有關這個貨物稅齁汽機車的貨物稅我已經也有提案說要修法齁降低貨物稅因為汽機車的稅負實在是太重了我看王先生也是有提案修法啦齁然後之前我們委員所提說什麼降關稅你們說會影響國內什麼稅損600億啊什麼進口跟國內的車業公車輛公會會有什麼意見那貨物稅多減是大家同意減"},{"start":5142.563,"end":5142.803,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":5164.85,"end":5167.791,"text":"我再補充一點,剛剛說給我講話給我講話我覺得"},{"start":5182.182,"end":5205.272,"text":"吳委員講的也對,召委可以排,可是召委不一定會排,但是你把它寫的要專案報告就一定要排,這是不一樣的層次,所以我們就去表決好不好,我就講到這裏,就去表決。我想這,吳委員這大家關心的,負稅署來報告一下也沒有不好啊。專案報告召委也可以不排,因為排案是召委的權利,然後什麼專案報告召委就一定要排。"},{"start":5206.115,"end":5206.316,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":5215.322,"end":5215.782,"text":"6年前民國107年"},{"start":5238.615,"end":5257.475,"text":"那天也不曉得我怎麼搞的可能太陽大了一點風大了一點突然間財政部負稅署就把所得稅法第6條第7款這45%的最高級距就取消了這一個級距取消多少錢呢一百億"},{"start":5259.229,"end":5272.987,"text":"一百億一年一百億一百億請問你們當時可有找到替代財源印花稅總共全國加起來就那麼十億"},{"start":5274.189,"end":5299.787,"text":"7、8、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、51、52、52、53、53、54、54、55、56、56、56、57、57、58、59、59、59、59、60、60、60、61、61、62、62、62、62、63、62、63、62、62、62、63、62、62、63、62、63、62、63、62、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、61、62、"},{"start":5300.998,"end":5307.083,"text":"謝謝主席因為這個案子我很關心最主要是因為醃酒稅的問題那會導致我們釀酒文化的實踐遇到困難甚至是這個產業呢因為未達經濟規模所以呢也很不容易去開展那更重要的是它就會變成地下化那地下化之後更麻煩"},{"start":5327.76,"end":5328.641,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":5344.969,"end":5345.309,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":5363.425,"end":5364.165,"text":"23案改組決議24案凍結5%書面報告25案組決議"},{"start":5393.334,"end":5419.842,"text":"二十六案是（唉!王委員的你沒有簽名這個是現在溝通怎麼樣?王世健委員這個是也是負稅署的這個稅租稅教育宣導這個您的建議是簡略齁二十五萬齁那那二十六對二十六案喔簡略二十五萬嘛齁欸先少出現所以簡略齁他是簡略那王委員有什麼意見嗎?"},{"start":5421.124,"end":5448.798,"text":"第26案您提的就是簡略這負稅的這個租稅教育宣導及健全風基金會下面的他說要改組決議改組決議了是吧好那就改組決議了齁那組決議再寫上來齁好27案齁27案也是王思謙委員的您的也是這個你是凍結20%這個有溝通嗎"},{"start":5452.145,"end":5453.386,"text":"28案改組決議29案改組決議"},{"start":5471.023,"end":5495.743,"text":"三十案改組決議,三十一案改組決議,三十二案是撤案,三十三案李坤城委員沒有到,他的提案是凍結一百萬元這個有跟他溝通嗎?對,三十三案,有沒有跟李坤城委員溝通呢?OK好,三十三案,就是凍結嘛齁一百萬齁,三十三案齁,凍結一百萬齁,好"},{"start":5499.662,"end":5519.883,"text":"三十四案是賴斯堡委員的簡略齁這樣子我解釋一下齁 簡略無異對 簡略無異齁 這個事情就是大家鬧得風火洋洋 到現在為止財政部沒有給社會一個交代 你給的交代社會不買單 你說沒有作弊 大家覺得怎麼可能"},{"start":5520.524,"end":5538.552,"text":"一個人拿iPhone拿兩支 拿iPad拿兩個 哈都好 錢雞啪都在空 這樣這麼準對不對 怎麼會有這樣的機率 它幾十億分之一 這沒有鬼沒有鬼才奇怪 所以現在檢調在調查 所以96%的獎金沒有動 你一毛錢也沒有動 補稅署長不要亂給我戴帽子 獎金沒有錢一毛錢 96%是獎金"},{"start":5546.795,"end":5573.288,"text":"4%是其他的費用我砍你其他的費用獎金沒有砍你一毛錢砍尾半費這裡面不是獎金喔是砍尾半費獎金沒有砍一毛錢一毛錢都沒有砍那這個東西是一個到現在為止社會不買單怎麼會有這麼大的皮肉怎麼會有這麼大的皮肉就是前面四個人"},{"start":5574.128,"end":5574.708,"text":"月18日及19日兩月18日及19日兩"},{"start":5592.376,"end":5618.171,"text":"現在造成大家對這個財政部的公信度有很大的這個影響很大我跟委員報告其實上次這個發票案發生以後我們也都非常的真的我們也是非常努力去檢討我們也想知道到底發生什麼事因為這麼多年了從來沒發生過所以這對我們來講是很大的打擊然後我們臺北國會局這邊當然同仁也都做了一些積極的處理只是可能"},{"start":5618.991,"end":5645.14,"text":"到目前為止還沒有辦法很公開的原因是因為我們其中有一項就是我們做了幾個處置第一個我們就行政調查行政調查就是我們行政權所能及的地方我們第一個我們先釐清了到底我們內神通外鬼我想這是大家非常關心的然後我們去確定因為我們行政權所能及的地方確定絕對沒有我們財政部當然所屬機關購的同仁配偶跟三親等內親屬都沒有"},{"start":5646.74,"end":5673.111,"text":"連那個陳瑞霜他也沒有但是我們確保的是財政部這邊沒有這是行政調查的部分那行政調查後來我們發現最主要的問題是在那個抽獎程式他已經超乎我們的預期所以最後我們就是移因為他涉及到一些專業所以我們就移檢調那邊是他的程式你有說過他的程式就是讓參加越多的人抽獎次數提高很多很多對但是他給的全數就不是大家想像中那種公平的對對"},{"start":5676.092,"end":5690.806,"text":"所以那這個部分要涉及專業所以我們就移給調查局就是說請他幫忙看一下這個抽獎程式到底怎麼樣對對還包含不只喔不只是只有程式那這個官費就是給那些單位的是不是就是在辦那些抽獎的單位喔喔不是不是我們"},{"start":5691.98,"end":5706.011,"text":"有給那些比如說資訊公司啊就資訊公司他就在城市給他動一點不知道是動手腳還是無心之過那這就給他們的喔不是不是不是我先解釋一下齁我們像我們譬如187億齁"},{"start":5709.693,"end":5725.898,"text":"187億主要是用一頁稅預算數的3%這是一頁稅法裡面的規定那編了以後我們會做分配最大的96%都是給民眾的同一發票獎金但是你給獎金的時候包含的你開獎、對獎還有領獎"},{"start":5729.199,"end":5734.99,"text":"這個都一定要用程式來支持那我先跟大家報告我跟大家報告就是說譬如說我"},{"start":5741.109,"end":5742.751,"text":"大約2億...2億多...180幾億裡面的...180幾億裡面的...180幾億裡面的...180幾億裡面的...180幾億裡面的...180幾億裡面的...180幾億裡面的...180幾億裡面的..."},{"start":5764.711,"end":5788.055,"text":"日的總經費裡面除了96%是要做獎金但是要去對獎、領獎以及相關的系統維運還有APP等等它也是佔了2%那真正做宣保就是剛剛委員講就是說我們發票這個事情事實上是統一發票的一個宣保的活動這個活動裡面總經費只有"},{"start":5792.76,"end":5809.796,"text":"兩億三千那砍五億那根本不夠砍這個做得很公平就不用宣導只要一不公平全民幫你宣傳當然這個宣導活動的方式我們也在做檢討我們的宣導方式應該是不是要再做調整等等這個事實上是我們內部要做檢討我們一定會做檢討"},{"start":5811.798,"end":5839.512,"text":"所以如果砍五一根本在那個宣導費就不夠砍你其他的不用做記載宣導房啊這次比較沒有問題我不看你宣導我看你其他app的那些設計的那個資訊資訊不是不是app是那個對講的不是不是這一次的那個不是那個不是那個是我們自己中心部長我們請教一下你們這一次他講了出問題這個抽獎是委託誰辦"},{"start":5843.514,"end":5851.327,"text":"他領多少錢?一年多少錢啊?哪一家公司啊?多少錢?那你們自己不是有關貿網路嗎?關貿網路不能辦這個事情嗎?"},{"start":5854.637,"end":5883.818,"text":"程序是哪一項?不一樣。也跟各位報告,我們除了移送調查局做這個刑事調查之外,我們民事也已經提起訴訟。那個這樣子啦,那委員商量一下啦。他講的那個只有2億多,你3、5億超過嘛。那你要3一點我想他們也能夠同意啦,因為就有發生這個事情。那你們是不是商量一下,3的金額降低,因為總共才2億多,你3、5億多他沒辦法支付啊。可是7億多啦,但是那個各位委員要講一下。有一些必要費用"},{"start":5884.518,"end":5885.139,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":5897.83,"end":5911.747,"text":"我跟委員報告2.3億我分配給我先跟委員報告我們是有一個同一方的推廣的經費嘛那我們分給國稅局5個國稅局跟22個稅捐處去做宣導活動這樣"},{"start":5916.693,"end":5938.913,"text":"那這裡全部我把22加5個國籍27個分這2.3億那他的名目就是說他到底要推什麼計畫是由各國稅局跟稅局去設計他去設計設計說他要推行什麼活動現在我無人講的了你不講那麼多了你可以答應砍多少啦你不能不能砍這個便宜要表達一下意見如果硬冒水不砍我都會有權"},{"start":5941.135,"end":5942.016,"text":"郭委員提案凍結"},{"start":5971.824,"end":6000.82,"text":"主席這樣子這個事情已經是送檢調了嘛那檢調就調查嘛你先凍結然後隨時有什麼情況你要跟我們報告王珊珊委員的意見呢你不是要表示意見主席我還沒講完你剛剛不是說五千萬我還沒講完我講的是部分其實這個過程當中其實這是就剛剛署長所說的利害關係人基本上是無色我姑且相信這是第一個那第二個你要掛保證啊"},{"start":6001.64,"end":6019.887,"text":"這種事情還會不會再發生啊?這是第二個嘛 對不對?你要掛保證嘛第三個這個事情還是要被檢討嘛因為關鍵的問題其實老實講還是語言不詳嘛這種情況底下你的公信力會不足你會對整個政府的公信力有所傷害"},{"start":6021.368,"end":6038.359,"text":"你在這個預算審查之前李當就應該把這個調查這個事情已經發生了不只一個月就應該提出來了為什麼到現在為止你的解釋還是一樣語言不詳呢?沒有 我說他的solution你的solution是什麼?"},{"start":6039.435,"end":6063.294,"text":"對阿至少行政調查先給委員們知道嘛幫你們宣導阿對你至少要讓我們知道否則的話這種東西你其實就很難取信於委員會那財政委員會一定會監督你們的阿所以我說我來那郭委員講完了嗎我是不是講說我建議說齁那個金額確實我同意吳秉偉委員講的那個砍的金額是太大是不是用砍或用凍結你剛剛說五千萬不砍五千萬"},{"start":6065.115,"end":6067.077,"text":"我幫復稅署這邊說一下當初這個案子委託了一間民間公司嘛當然你剛剛有講到你沒有用麥克風講我跟你講偉來嘛那偉來抽獎出了問題"},{"start":6087.279,"end":6103.368,"text":"有幾個可能性一個就是最可惡的就是財政部賦稅署或是國稅局的官員跟委來勾結這個有沒有先在送檢調再調查那委來有沒有作弊檢調也再調查那如果是委來內部自己的作業上面的問題"},{"start":6104.769,"end":6132.168,"text":"財政部沒有辦法介入去調查委來那個要司法才有辦法介入到人家的民間公司去調查委來我想應該是這樣子邏輯是清楚的那現在財政部回答說他們自己自清調查他們認為他們自己沒問題但是也把這整個案子全部都送給檢調他們後面有承諾如果調查出他們有責任他們有法律上面該負的刑責他們願意將來要去負起這個責任來"},{"start":6134.573,"end":6134.879,"text":"月一日。（"},{"start":6135.78,"end":6164.217,"text":"對阿他們有這樣子的承諾在後面有講阿所以我是覺得如果以調查內容而言其實財政部跟賦稅署跟國稅局的能力是有限的他只能做內部的行政調查那至於到底有沒有舞弊因為大家都了解臺灣的司法並沒有辦法這麼快因為還有很多大案那當然這也很關係到大家但是很關係到觀感但是我是覺得我們也沒有辦法去指定"},{"start":6165.077,"end":6165.377,"text":"月19日及19日二"},{"start":6185.458,"end":6186.099,"text":"財政部監督部長馬"},{"start":6197.422,"end":6225.129,"text":"這個引起得到的民怨今天你說我們這個案子都這樣沒有處理你看現在到現在為止還在撬啊這個網路上撬了一堆啊大家小老百姓撬了一堆啊怎麼沒有呢引起很大的民怨我覺得是替你要講的話我要替你們財政部做事你砍一點砍一點讓大家覺得說我們真的有在替老百姓把關你們監督不周就監督不周嘛那你現在你可以動的"},{"start":6228.014,"end":6239.558,"text":"96%裡面可以動的96%一毛錢的不動的一毛錢不動的剩下7億多7億多我給你砍個5%好不好我已經被其他委員我委員提五千萬了那就是3億5啊就是4千萬啦不要啦 我跟你這樣啦台一千萬啦啦你既然只是要讓他支掉付錢就一千萬好不好"},{"start":6256.027,"end":6281.701,"text":"商量一下一千萬你看他有五個國稅局二十二個地方的稅出這個兩億多的錢發下去每一個單位就每一千塊錢又不是很大條的錢所以我是覺得一千萬啦我有同意你說要刪啦好不好一千萬不夠刪如果一千萬的話那就是那就是我的改成凍結五億然後做狀況報告就這樣子我不殺你"},{"start":6282.501,"end":6306.27,"text":"你中央報告 拍中央報告 中央報告你可以兩三個中央報告一起拍啊 凍結五億 如果你這樣子 因為一千萬不接受了 一千萬我不接受 一千萬我不接受 兩千萬我也不接受 一千萬兩千萬我不接受 太離譜了 因為這個人家看的是一百八十幾億 然後我看一千萬一趴都不到 人家外面看都不到 你要說明一下 你要說明一下"},{"start":6309.132,"end":6336.69,"text":"我強調的現在是一千八百多億然後你一趴都沒有砍到都沒有砍到都沒有砍到這個一趴我覺得那不用再講理由就具體建議啦剛那次把委員講了五趴是三千五啦我的具體建議就是你有兩億三的十趴兩千三百萬然後扣除然後專案報告還是要專案報告後面還有一個王宏慧委員的提案大家有沒有"},{"start":6340.899,"end":6357.389,"text":"後面還有一個案子是凍結的,所以還有這個向下,因為同一份要提的很多。主席這樣,這兩個有點就是,一個說如果都不刪就無益嘛,那我覺得你這樣後面所有東西都沒有辦法推動,乾脆就刪啦,就刪2000萬,這個大概也"},{"start":6363.553,"end":6387.734,"text":"我們希望齁我們希望你們要追究你那個廠商的責任啦沒有啦我我這我是提要委員的齁這要尊重我一下對不對我從這樣一直一直下來你一千一百八十幾億兩千萬還是太少啦我就勉強回復這個黃山山委員的啦兩千三按照他的計算基礎啦查摩沙巴科目自行調整啦"},{"start":6388.214,"end":6389.635,"text":"月18日及19日二月18日及19日"},{"start":6407.808,"end":6427.367,"text":"二十三十五萬也是在委員提案那個主席就避難就好了三五三六就避難就好了等一下我們聽一下提案委員的意見好嗎他提不一樣的意見不一樣你就要加兩百啦這兩百是不是這樣就兩千五啦沒有我這裡不一樣啊這個是這是媒體的咧這是媒體這是媒體廣宣的咧不一樣啊不一樣"},{"start":6434.341,"end":6435.902,"text":"月18日及19日二月18日及19日二"},{"start":6464.681,"end":6477.957,"text":"三十七案是這個凍結百分之十三個月內來那個有文字修正喔來這個書面報告但是黃衛委員有特別提到倘若法務部調查局調查的結果是"},{"start":6479.718,"end":6498.193,"text":"財政部卻有不法情勢那就要改為專報這個也很合情合理嗎如果說你們有不法你們就要專報然後要金銅一赫斯的東西如果你們有不法我們就要那這個就按照文字修正後通過如果不法情勢就是我們就是反正現在就凍結10%那三個月的報告"},{"start":6502.873,"end":6528.257,"text":"三十六跟三十七五百萬跟十趴在一起一樣的現在併在一起以三十七案為準叫郭國英委員做併案三十八案撤案三十九案是主決議嗎主決議遵照辦理四十案是文字修正後改書面的報告三個月內的書面報告四十一案"},{"start":6536.722,"end":6557.997,"text":"四十二案也是遵照辦理主決議。四十三案也是主決議遵照辦理。四十四案負責署有修正嗎?沒有。四十四案沒問題嗎?遵照辦理。四十五案是代委員的。哇!不是簡略,真特別。有文字修正。"},{"start":6558.959,"end":6580.648,"text":"是不是?這個你們不要改那麼長那麼多了,我講了幾次,你們盡量尊重立法委員的提案嘛,對不對?你們看一下,那委員這個還要寫成字嗎?沒有問題,具體做法書面就好了,加個書面就好了,不要改了,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝委員,謝謝委員,不要改了,寫書面啦好,就具體做法書面報告,好,書面報告,好,好,謝謝賦稅署,還沒有,41,就改書面報告,對,對"},{"start":6587.984,"end":6614.631,"text":"好,40,剛剛41,欸剛剛40幾?43了齁44案遵照辦理對吧?負稅署44案是遵照辦理吧?好,45案也是遵照辦理,直接把它改書面嗎?書面報告就對了?就主決,本來就主決,然後書面報告,繼續做就用書面報告了齁,好,負稅署的齁,結束,好,小三兩千多萬而已齁"},{"start":6616.26,"end":6616.641,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":6623.493,"end":6623.873,"text":"臺北國稅局改組決議、改組決議、改組決議、改組決議、改組決議、改組決議、改組決議、"},{"start":6652.807,"end":6653.007,"text":"克木之行調整（"},{"start":6681.927,"end":6682.527,"text":"臺北國稅局臺北國稅局臺北"},{"start":6710.829,"end":6726.796,"text":"好來翁局長報告麥克風靠近一點我跟委員報告一下那個第一項一般行政數位其實我們只有北國的一半好了不要一直講20萬了好20萬很少本來100萬可不可以不然就北國的一半可以嗎"},{"start":6729.904,"end":6743.891,"text":"業務、業務費、科目自行調整,那你們調整了。好,20萬了。好了,第2案撤案,第3案是主決議,第4案是賴世保委員的,改成幹決了,改凍結書面報告,凍結多少%?5%好了,10%好,10%好。"},{"start":6754.271,"end":6773.802,"text":"第5案徹案 現在下去北區國稅局李局長第一案徹案 第二案改組決議 第三案賴司法委員的簡略簡略20萬 科目自行調整"},{"start":6780.68,"end":6780.88,"text":"中區國稅局（"},{"start":6810.56,"end":6837.183,"text":"好來中區第一案測案喔第二案是賴氏報告 第二案改成凍結然後書面報告啦好改凍結書面報告阿第三案就一樣啦不要二十萬啦第三好來等一下 中區的規模更小第二案是凍結百分之十書面報告阿那就十五萬吧十五萬了十五萬了十五萬了十五萬了好第三案好凍結十五萬這樣"},{"start":6839.737,"end":6844.681,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度。"},{"start":6866.223,"end":6866.644,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":6884.875,"end":6904.891,"text":"月19日及20日及21日及22日及24日及25日及26日及27日及28日及29日及30日及31日及32日及33日及34日及35日及35日及35日及36日及36日及37日及38日及39日及39日及40日及39日及40日及40日及39日及40日及39日及40日及39日及40日及39日及40日及39日及39日及40日及40日及39日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40"},{"start":6908.558,"end":6924.693,"text":"月務費簡略10萬,科目給你自行調整了。來,第三案改組決議,對,科目自行調整。好,第四案測案,沒有了,哇,這麼快速。好,謝謝李局長。好,關務署,關務署不錯,最受重視的有31個案子。"},{"start":6928.918,"end":6940.164,"text":"你們都有充分溝通所以第一案改組決議第二案凍結300萬加報告第四案凍結300萬加書面報告第三案凍結300萬書面報告第四案是王世堅委員的王世堅委員是您的案子第四案是您是檢列案檢列200萬麥克風麥克風不然聽不見"},{"start":6959.732,"end":6985.41,"text":"委員請拿麥克風我們聽不見我同意他每一檢落併案併案喔併這個一樣凍結案喔併第下一個第5案第5案是檢列的啦第5案第5案他們來跟我談過了喔因為這是房屋建築的養父啦你列五寶給你檢列一百科目字條啦金門那個地方那麼爛是不是要維修一下"},{"start":6986.531,"end":6991.313,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度。"},{"start":7006.149,"end":7017.396,"text":"你那個金門特別辦公場所房屋房屋建築養護會雖然是港屋住的樓但是你們在辦公欸好啦 給他們一個民宿給他們幾十萬給他們宣傳金門的資源給他一點你同意做我就給你一點錢啊可不可以要不要做真的剝落"},{"start":7035.075,"end":7035.376,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":7049.532,"end":7067.459,"text":"我以為我有去看過基隆關務署,他們這個錢太少了,我們還想要幫他徵,所以可不可以少刪一點他這個錢。他是基隆港的門面,而且我們的郵輪有60萬遊客,看到就是那個爛爛的關務署大樓,很醜的,旁邊最醜就是他家了。"},{"start":7070,"end":7094.314,"text":"麥克風,署長我再請教一下,如果不是你們財產,那你們在使用這樣怎麼辦咧?你們的人發生公安怎麼辦?就工作安全危險,聽話把我吊下來。那個署長,要去跟借用的那個機關溝通商量,你們有出一點錢他們應該會願意啊。我們都有跟金門縣政府溝通。不是,你們有錢你們要出啊。你們給人家用也沒付租金的啊。人家免費提供給你們使用的啊。"},{"start":7095.654,"end":7122.944,"text":"對?阿你們算就像房客不用出錢房客免費借用你整理一下沒什麼大礙是你的人在辦公那個天花板真的鋼筋裸露了你們掉下來你會有危險阿對對對我們有去看阿可以吧阿因為是你們在使用欸是他沒有跟你不然叫他跟你輸一塊錢租金你就當租客你又得維修阿沒有沒有沒有租啦我就借用免費給他們使用但是房子很爛是真的"},{"start":7124.521,"end":7124.962,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":7135.047,"end":7162.635,"text":"這個你們自己也看到,這是去考察,看到你們那個天花板已經... 處長我跟你講有方法啦,你去跟金門縣政府溝通,金門縣政府來給你做安全檢查,如果有安全餘力你們當然就要補強啊,因為你們要使用啊。那個天花板已經掉下來了,有安全餘力。對啦我知道啊,所以用這個方式你們就可以用這條錢。沒有啦,我要問的是,要是說看你是因為你比去年增加很多啊,增加多少比去年增加多,你講一下嘛。"},{"start":7163.555,"end":7189.775,"text":"你去年增加多少嘛跟委員報告我們這個是分兩年齁要來拯救增加多少嘛你要講啊2341萬你們講的門面我都不反對啦要弄漂亮但是你又要增加兩千多要增加到哪裡增加兩千多增加太多我才砍你一百啊你增加兩千多我砍你一百搞不好脫位沒脫位啊"},{"start":7190.475,"end":7190.655,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":7215.982,"end":7230.688,"text":"那第三個部分本期非常的非常的強烈的要求我們這個關務署對整個文化資產你很關心那個北投育成中心那個然後第一個呢他三年來進步非常的緩慢第二個呢是"},{"start":7231.568,"end":7232.428,"text":"對 這個你這麼關心喔 講好幾次了"},{"start":7259.554,"end":7285.752,"text":"那怎麼辦已經超過120年到現在為止又任由郭國維已經關心這個案子很多次了我都已經聽到他講很多次了還去考察那為什麼都還沒有呢那還是你直接把他全部的錢刪掉他如果不做對我是很想刪啦欸署長你們在那怎麼辦你們都不尊重郭國維他已經講很多次連我都聽到很多次他都不能做事情啊刪掉他都不能做事情都考察兩次了欸欸你們都不能有資政黨的意見了你們都不能有資政黨的意見了他不重視郭國維的意見了"},{"start":7286.673,"end":7307.428,"text":"我們真的都有在做了,我們是跟臺北市政府文化局都有協商啦。那都不要推給別的單位嗎?該你們的承擔啦。協商沒有用,你沒有具體嘛。署長,你對著我講一下好不好?是。根本沒有任何具體的承諾出來,我怎麼可以任由你這樣子拖延呢?那各位我支持你啦,你看要怎麼樣讓他可以做嘛。對啊。"},{"start":7308.035,"end":7330.974,"text":"你覺得是不是要當他報告還是說要給他刪除還是怎麼樣我們支持你啊因為我覺得你很關心這個文化我也是很支持啊本來這只是用凍結而已啊你要凍結好了凍結一個月啊那我跟你講齁凍結一個月之後我恢復齁提出書面報告之後同意後才能實施要同意是不是要加同意喔他要加同意啦齁就回到我的原文啦沒有他只是要督促你們前進這是很正面的啦"},{"start":7332.294,"end":7332.955,"text":"日經過我的同意（"},{"start":7340.615,"end":7363.9,"text":"拜託 我質詢他 我要求他多少次 他有solution嗎他沒有solution出來啊 為什麼不能要求他啊 開什麼玩笑國委員 這個我是支持你 是你們民進黨的吳秉瑞沒有支持你不過我覺得我們這樣協商一下好不好是不是已經他講了那麼多次了 我跟你講 我跟你講 我跟你講他不是在護航 他是在退營找麻煩 我沒騙你"},{"start":7366.991,"end":7377.914,"text":"不是啊,署長這個真的講很多次了,他都去考察兩次了,是不是應該要非常尊重啊?你看要怎麼做啦?跟委員報告,我們的確有跟臺北市文化局在溝通,我們11月還跟他溝通,他原則上都會說,如果我們這個修復再利用計畫,如果已經完成的話,像今年他12月就已經提出了這個報告,然後也開了公聽會,然後4月"},{"start":7394.779,"end":7394.799,"text":"日。﹗"},{"start":7412.901,"end":7428.517,"text":"就是說臺北市文化局沒有看過臺北市政府文化局這麼有誠意要去處理事情你沒有修理完成他不可能跟你所以跟委員報告我們說有尊重委員的意思如果我們現在就是他沒有給我們確切的答案我們就會自己編預算去處理好"},{"start":7429.838,"end":7457.533,"text":"那好那所以你這個理由要不要精通就不用精通議了他已經公開這樣講了不行那個可以齁?國務委員就按照這個凍結300萬提出書面報告啦齁到時候如果他就有公開再講喔到時候那個阿國修讀會對啦齁好這樣子好嗎?OK謝謝國務委員謝謝那接著我講一個不是這個關務署啊你不過來叫我妹啦齁在野黨你也是不了執政黨也不了齁"},{"start":7459.298,"end":7487.772,"text":"我跟你講了幾次諮詢也諮詢過部長那個電子院是禁止的你們結果給他進來你們關務署又給他進來一堆現在在自由貿易港區放著說該不該處理電子院現在大家親自要買房我都要諮詢幾次了總預算總諮詢你也問了行政院院長然後你以後都不理了你關務署長好大你理都不理了這關務署要處理就是為什麼"},{"start":7488.832,"end":7508.802,"text":"根據自由貿易港區第15條,韋晉平不可以進來為什麼你給他進來?為什麼你給他進來?為什麼?跟委員報告,這個都有問過衛福部,衛福部都有正式的函文給我們衛福部公定啦,都你不聽的啊!這個以後再算賬,我跟你講這個以後再...沒有,你們亂講!交通部就對付你們交通部、衛福部都說是全政府決定"},{"start":7515.908,"end":7529.979,"text":"海關只是協助邊境管制而已自貿港區是自由貿易港區那個設置管理條例那個都是交通部管理的貨品的主管機關也是衛福部財政部真的沒有權責說進不進來的問題我們都是配合管制的"},{"start":7534.082,"end":7562.142,"text":"好那剛剛第三案就是一樣凍結300萬那要提一個月一個月因為你剛已經說去都提報告然後郭委員還會再繼續監督這件事情好第四這個第四案剛剛已經講過了第四第五案都已經剛簡略了100萬好第六案撤案第七案撤案第八案第九案是併案是500萬這都是我提的以第八案為準提書面報告好"},{"start":7563.652,"end":7575.641,"text":"第10案是凍結500萬提書面報告還有修正內容第11案改組決議第12案遵照辦理第13案也是遵照辦理第14案是賴委員的是簡略第14案"},{"start":7592.321,"end":7608.519,"text":"十三是您簡略的（您同意我喔（科目字條（好（四百啦（可以喔（四百啦改成四百啦（四百萬喔（改成四百啦（業務費下面（現在關稅業務向下我們科目（關稅業務向下簡略四百萬科目執行調整（是（OK好（"},{"start":7609.92,"end":7626.712,"text":"第十萬是往事見聞有溝通過了嗎還是對他一開始確實那個經驗有點那個不過他有來說明他說這個是因為主計總處調高那個檢驗人員的住所所以現在是答案是對那現在這樣他已說明了我就同意免檢或者併案"},{"start":7627.472,"end":7628.654,"text":"第16案改組決議第17案改組決議"},{"start":7642.625,"end":7662.213,"text":"那個 署長 這個部分齁 那個你預計明年第一季就可以完成電子化了嗎對 明年第一季保證會完成齁 會完成啊那我順帶提起您一件事情啊 是你之前在10月的時候就已經說要對廠商對於入境待久的部分要進速定案就1加1的部分"},{"start":7664.693,"end":7689.009,"text":"750毫升加750毫升帶酒進來的這個案子到底什麼時候才會定跟委員報告我們現在在陳河部裡面已經拖很久了你從10月到現在已經拖很久了是跟委員報告因為我們去徵詢相關業者的意見那有一些業者本來有一些意見的那我們再有再去溝通對阿你上次也是這樣講阿是那現在已經12月下旬了會那個我們已經基礎在處理這你能不能給個時間點給個時間點"},{"start":7695.994,"end":7702.02,"text":"你兩個月前就這麼說了,你業者什麼時候可以完成?你兩個月都沒有溝通完成嗎?"},{"start":7709.837,"end":7732.411,"text":"對外講說10月你就這樣講說要跟業者溝通我在委員會質詢你你也是說要跟業者溝通跟委員報告這的確因為他牽涉到範圍不是說只有國境的這部分還有牽涉到小山東要不要比照辦公會團體也會拖這麼久我是很難以理解你至少給我個時間點我想在一個月內應該政策可以做出決定"},{"start":7735.384,"end":7741.567,"text":"第18案王世堅委員18案是您的案子是有關這個有溝通過了吼沒有是18重要不不不18關稅我們沒有至少要帶凍結"},{"start":7757.834,"end":7758.194,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":7774.745,"end":7775.145,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":7796.572,"end":7796.832,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":7814.155,"end":7814.175,"text":"吳秉樂委員"},{"start":7842.509,"end":7863.491,"text":"我幫他們講一下保健品的稅要不要降不是海關在決定的這是衛福部在決定的那你為了衛福部決定要不要衛福部跟經濟部而且他們必須要考量因為這裡面牽涉到很多如果你這個關稅把它降得很低我都在中國做這個保健食品進口來台灣就好了"},{"start":7864.031,"end":7865.792,"text":"第18案就是動輸百分之十加書面報告"},{"start":7886.681,"end":7900.232,"text":"第十九案就是跟二十案都是二十案拼動一百萬以二十案為準這剛剛都簽名了好二十一案是王世堅委員的關稅資料處理的部分"},{"start":7901.478,"end":7902.439,"text":"22案李昱修文動500萬加速面報告23案"},{"start":7919.358,"end":7936.464,"text":"十五萬是併案的以二十三案為主是動五百萬加書面報告二十四案是李貴主委員主席那個二十五案我雖然併案我還是要講一下就我就覺得那個還是要提醒那個公務組這邊那加強執法的公平性跟可預測性"},{"start":7943.385,"end":7960.23,"text":"二十四案李昆城委員的有什麼意見嗎?這個也是凍結百分之十的每一件接著二十案討論二十六案這個改組決議二十七案是賴世寶委員的簡略是不是簡略好"},{"start":7961.482,"end":7963.184,"text":"月18日及19日二月18日及19日二月18日及19日二"},{"start":7987.946,"end":8015.238,"text":"二十九案改組決議三十案改組決議三十一案遵照辦理關務署不錯備受重視接著國產署管署二十二案管署你的案子怎麼這麼少趕快跟國國那個報告趕快多寫一下給他早一點做二十二個案子第一案"},{"start":8016.704,"end":8017.325,"text":"月18日及19日二"},{"start":8028.115,"end":8031.796,"text":"第2案是凍結5%書面第3案是凍結200萬加3個月第4案凍結5%3個月第5案改組決議"},{"start":8056.141,"end":8075.1,"text":"第6案凍結兩百萬三個月的報告第7案凍結兩百萬三個月報告來第8案主決議第9案凍結兩百萬加書面第10案凍結五趴加三個月全部都溝通過了吧真厲害充分溝通第11案凍結兩百萬加三個月的報告"},{"start":8080.263,"end":8085.009,"text":"第8案第8案這個原文當中我跟我已經改成主決議了齁但是內容齁其實麻煩那個國安署印一下這樣會比較好一點"},{"start":8096.67,"end":8121.139,"text":"我這內容其實已經改了有改過了我們看到13歲正一歲30條規定讓稅務人符合條件下這個有修正後修正後的組決議因為修正幅度還蠻大的這組決議修正幅度對蠻大的但是這個部分其實就是要請部長跟特別跟那個稅務機關講一下要檢討那個實務的這個底角的條件不要收一大堆價值低又沒有辦法變現的這種"},{"start":8122.92,"end":8124.341,"text":"第13案凍結5%加書面第14案凍結200萬加書面第15案凍結100萬加3個月的書面"},{"start":8152.68,"end":8168.593,"text":"月後的書面報告 三個月內第16案改組決議 郭委員有要表達嗎 17案也是你的改組決議這文字修正很少了 16跟17都是您的提案應該是說優先做社會住宅 第一個就是說要請那個"},{"start":8169.614,"end":8199.117,"text":"還要再複一句話齁第一個的部分齁那個主要是文資的部分齁還是要請部這邊齁部長這邊齁必要的時候應該要設立那個專責的單位啦齁因為那個國有財產署有這個文化資產還有相關的這個公股國公股銀行的話都有類似的文化資產齁那做一個通盤性的一個管理啦這是第16案的部分那第17案的部分的話這主要做收購住宅沒有錯但是應該要跟內政部充分的合作"},{"start":8201.339,"end":8203.681,"text":"月18日及19日兩日及19日兩日及19日兩日及"},{"start":8213.985,"end":8240.657,"text":"19號19號19號19號19號19號19號19號"},{"start":8241.223,"end":8270.832,"text":"好,第20案是改組決議,這個字都很漂亮,國有財產署的組決議寫的字都很漂亮。第21案改動5%,22案,20案是王世堅委員的,也是組決議遵照辦理。好,我們已經審訊,剛剛那個同一方面那個是刪了嗎?刪了,所以就沒有任何保留案了?一個都沒有保留?哪一個案子?"},{"start":8272.045,"end":8293.371,"text":"王世堅的二十案是什麼?貨物稅那個嗎?貨物稅那個要討論了。就他們兩個要不要專案報告那個嗎?還有呢?在修這文字。稅制改革,還有哪一案?沒有了?就還有嗎?只有二十案,二十案如果溝通完畢就沒有保留案了喔?好厲害喔,充分溝通。"},{"start":8294.813,"end":8311.688,"text":"然後你們單位的,寫的字怎麼都那麼漂亮?跟那個國稅局的公務員寫字,哇好漂亮!欸,你看他修的那個決議都寫很漂亮!很整齊很工整啊!誰寫的?二十案喔二十案如果跟王委員"},{"start":8313.23,"end":8313.55,"text":"好,剩下這個20案"},{"start":8341.758,"end":8344,"text":"國庫署（國庫署（國庫署（國庫署（國庫署（國庫署（"},{"start":8366.761,"end":8371.303,"text":"月18日及19日兩日及19日兩日及19日兩日及19日兩日及19日兩日及19日"},{"start":8386.13,"end":8393.657,"text":"十三也快溝通成功了"},{"start":8404.578,"end":8430.705,"text":"降一下那個降一下那個什麼貨物稅啦 汽機車貨物稅降一下20案改組決議齁那個3個月內提出相關報告嘛對啊就我們剛說汽機車貨物稅嘛這個我把你叫他們提報告了好謝謝書面報告齁好那我們上去來把這個宣讀一下齁今天"},{"start":8433.017,"end":8434.078,"text":"我們自己排有兩位委員喔"},{"start":8463.42,"end":8464.12,"text":"好,我們那個"},{"start":8486.244,"end":8512.211,"text":"協商完成請議事人員宣讀協商結論宣讀協商結論負稅署第一案撤案第二案改凍結150萬元兩個月內提書面報告第三案改凍結150萬元兩個月內提書面報告第四案改組決議第五案改組決議第六案改組決議第七案改凍結150萬元兩個月內提書面報告第八案改組決議第九案改凍結150萬元提書面報告第十案改組決議第十一案改組決議"},{"start":8513.371,"end":8530.898,"text":"第12案改組決議第13案改組決議第14案改組決議第15案改凍結50萬元2個月內提書面報告第16案改組決議第17案改凍結50萬元2個月內提書面報告第18案改組決議第19案改組決議第20案改組決議第21案改凍結50萬元提書面報告第22案改凍結30萬元3個月內提書面報告第23案改組決議第24案改凍結5%提書面報告"},{"start":8542.802,"end":8548.907,"text":"25 案改組決議26 案改組決議27 案改凍結10%提書面報告28 案改組決議29 案改組決議30 案改組決議31 案改組決議32 案撤案33 案照案通過凍結100萬元提書面報告"},{"start":8565.27,"end":8591.028,"text":"三十四案統一發票給獎及推行向下違範費減略兩千三百萬元科目自行調整三十五案統一發票給獎及推行向下一般事務費向下一般事務費減略一百萬元科目自行調整科目自行調整第三十六案及三十七案並案凍結百分之十三個月內提書面報告以第三十四案為主"},{"start":8593.953,"end":8619.569,"text":"第三大案特案三九案照案通過四十案修正通過改三個月內提書面報告四十一案照案通過四十二案照案通過四十三案照案通過四十四案照案通過四十五案修正通過改提書面報告臺北國稅局部分第一案改組決議第二案改組決議第三案稅款徵收及處理向下業務費減月三十萬元科目進行調整"},{"start":8623.164,"end":8649.566,"text":"第4案改組決議第5案撤案高雄國稅局部分第一案基本行政工作維持向下業務費減略20萬元科目自行調整第二案撤案第三案改組決議第4案改凍結10%及書面報告第5案撤案北區國稅局及所屬部分第一案撤案第二案改組決議第三案基本行政工作維持向下業務費減略"},{"start":8651.428,"end":8665.145,"text":"二十萬元科目自行調整第三案稅款徵收及處理減略第四案稅款徵收及處理向下優惠費減略二十萬元科目自行調整第五案改組決議"},{"start":8667.301,"end":8696.019,"text":"第6案改凍結5%3個月內提書面報告中區國稅局及所屬部分第一案徹案第6案凍結10%提書面報告第三案稅款徵收及處理向下業務費減列15萬元科目自行調整第4案改組決議第5案電子處理及應用向下業務費減列15萬元科目自行調整第6案徹案南區國稅局及所屬部分第一案徹案"},{"start":8698.035,"end":8725.27,"text":"第二案稅款徵收及處理向下業務費減略10萬元科目自行調整第三案改組決議第四案測案關務署及所屬第一案改組決議第二案改凍結300萬元一個月內提書面報告第三案凍結300萬元一個月內提書面報告第四案第五案併案基本行政工作爲此向下業務費減略100萬元科目自行調整第六案測案"},{"start":8726.789,"end":8752.809,"text":"第7案徹案第8案第9案併案凍結500萬元提書面報告以第8案為主第10案文字修正凍結500萬元提書面報告第11案改組決議第12案照案通過第13案照案通過第14案15案併案關稅約務簡略400萬元科目自行調整第16案改組決議"},{"start":8756.482,"end":8765.028,"text":"第17案改組決議第18案凍結10%提書面報告第19及第20案並按凍結100萬元提書面報告以第20案為主第21案改組決議第22案改凍結500萬元提書面報告第23案及第25案並按凍結500萬元提書面報告第24案照案通過"},{"start":8780.748,"end":8803.993,"text":"第26案改組決議第27案關稅業務檢列50萬元科目自行調整第28案關稅業務檢列100萬元科目自行調整第29案改組決議第30案改組決議第31案照案通過國有財產署及所屬部分第一案基本行政工作維持向下業務費檢列50萬元科目自行調整第二案改凍結5%3個月內提書面報告"},{"start":8807.403,"end":8816.975,"text":"第3案改凍結200萬元3個月內提書面報告第4案凍結5%3個月內提書面報告第5案改組決議第6案改凍結200萬元3個月內提書面報告第7案改凍結200萬元3個月內提書面報告第8案改組決議"},{"start":8825.1,"end":8838.791,"text":"第9案改動節200萬元提書面報告第10案改動節5%至5%三個月內提書面報告第11案改動節200萬元提書面報告第12案改動節200萬元提書面報告第13案改動節5%至5%提書面報告第14案改動節200萬元提書面報告第15案改動節100萬元三個月內提書面報告第16案改組決議"},{"start":8851.892,"end":8854.814,"text":"第17案改組決議第18案改凍結5%提書面報告第19案凍結120萬元提書面報告第20案改組決議第21案改凍結5%提書面報告"},{"start":8870.421,"end":8893.47,"text":"第22案照案通過。先轉筆。好,謝謝。協商完成齁。請問各位委員對協商結論有無異議?沒有。沒有異議我們通過齁。本日會議作成如下,如下決議啊。一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、"},{"start":8896.391,"end":8902.835,"text":"有關正式別稅數預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整請問各位委員對以上決議有意義沒有意義通過本日會議程已經進行完畢我們休息謝謝"},{"start":8927.832,"end":8928.333,"text":"點,兩屆議事會明天還有。"},{"start":8942.23,"end":8943.952,"text":"月一日的財政財源調度。（"}]}},{"id":"16384","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16384","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc2d34adc683ae39a10a73ccf8a48a709278081dad70f87c469652aa4c9a99ea515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管（不含審計部及所屬）收支部分。\n【12月18日及19日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-18","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-18T08:31:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-18T12:34:00+08:00","duration":14543,"影片長度":"04:02:23","委員發言時間":"08:31:37 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02委員國外考察檢列2652000元委員黃國昌等提案第二十二案坑木同前檢列663000元委員吳宗憲等提案第二十三案02中業務費之國外旅費檢列700000元委員鍾家斌等提案第二十四案第四目財產申報業務向下01公職人員財產申報凍結820000元委員吳宗憲等提案第二十五案至第三十五案為第五目國家人權業務之預算提案"},{"start":2248.436,"end":2253.061,"text":"第25案第5目檢列8500萬元為黃國昌等提案第26案檢列5000萬元凍結80%為羅志強等提案第27案檢列950萬元為羅志強等提案第28案"},{"start":2264.697,"end":2279.108,"text":"檢列15050萬元為零私名等提案第29案動結150萬元為零私名等提案第30案第五目向下零一規劃評估與研究檢列50萬元動結25%為翁小林等提案第31案零二訪視調查與合作檢列200萬元動結50%為翁小林等提案第32案"},{"start":2288.354,"end":2294.236,"text":"第12訪試調查與合作,檢列25萬元,凍結50%為翁曉琳等提案。第33案,零二中設備及投資檢列400萬元,凍結25%為翁曉琳等提案。第34案,零三教育推廣與交流,檢列500萬元,凍結50%為翁曉琳等提案。"},{"start":2308.981,"end":2323.853,"text":"第35案零三中業務費至一般事務費凍結50萬元為吳思堯等提案。第36案至第39案為第6目一般建築及設備之預算提案。第36案第6目第一節營建工程剪貼244萬5000元為黃國昌等提案。第37案"},{"start":2327.996,"end":2337.719,"text":"第1屆向下01營建工程中設備及投資之房屋建築及設備費凍結550萬元委員吳宗憲等提案第38案第三屆其他設備檢列2150萬1千元委員黃國昌等提案第39案第三屆向下02資訊設備檢列386萬9千元委員羅志強等提案"},{"start":2351.443,"end":2360.782,"text":"第40案之第56案分別為委員吳思瑤等、委員沈發慧等、委員莊瑞雄等、委員陳俊宇等、委員鍾嘉斌等所提之主決議案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2364.828,"end":2384.923,"text":"預算數及所有提案均於選擇完畢進行討論請我們先說明預算案的處理方式依照委員會處理預算提案的慣例輸入部分依來源別以向為單位稅出依機關別以目為單位分別依序進行審查各單位預算中"},{"start":2386.144,"end":2397.075,"text":"與處理委員所提之徵三提案之後及未涉及之預算部分均與照列有關正式別稅出預算隨同機關別審查結果調整"},{"start":2400.331,"end":2416.812,"text":"預算提案經由委員會幕僚的整理以將所收的委員提案彙整成預算提案本並且按照預算科別製作彙整表方便各位與審查室參考請大家分別參閱提案本及彙整表進行討論"},{"start":2420.345,"end":2440.05,"text":"稍後經討論決議修正之預算提案,請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後,送交主題臺並列入公報記錄。審查預算過程中如有列席幕僚與首次答覆委員問題發言時,請先自行介紹職稱姓名以立公報人員記錄。"},{"start":2445.145,"end":2465.451,"text":"我們現在進行本日議程討論事項繼續審查14年度中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管（不含審計部及所屬）收支部分先處理稅路部分因為沒有委員提案稅路預算就均與照列"},{"start":2469.951,"end":2488.079,"text":"稅出提案處理原則繼續審理稅出提案處理前先做說明依照委員會處理預算提案之慣例會讓所有提案委員先說明自己的提案並表達意見在經與會機關充分討論之後做成決議也就是程序上按照會整表所列的提案順序"},{"start":2488.7,"end":2500.475,"text":"依序由提案委員先就提案內容進行說明之後再由機關代表予以答覆然後再整目一起處理做成決議。臨時上我們按照慣例盡可能採共識的方式處理進行處理稅出部分依前"},{"start":2507.095,"end":2526.43,"text":"前述原則依序進行先請提案委員針對提案內容進行說明再請機關代表回覆之後再做成決議請參閱提案本期彙整表進行討論我們進入討論我們先就案號第一案"},{"start":2536.595,"end":2543.254,"text":"稅出第6款第一項兼查院的業務費部分那我們先請提案委員翁曉琳說明"},{"start":2571.537,"end":2593.543,"text":"首先針對第一案本席所提出的要刪減監察院的國外旅費的經費主要也是因為看到監察院的國外旅費年年的增長113年比112年增加23%114年又比113年又增加16%"},{"start":2600.97,"end":2619.788,"text":"更何況就是在他們這次所列的這個出國旅費的項目裡面還有什麼職員到日本去考察黑熊保育啊然後這個根本跟監察院的職權無關那麼再加上他所列的出國的人員天數次數等等都沒有一個"},{"start":2621.57,"end":2637.864,"text":"統計資料就是每一年的出國人員的人數天數次數沒有一個統計資料出國報告當中其實也不是寫得很清楚所以本期認為國外旅費的增幅以及計劃的內容欠缺必要性跟妥適性同時也應該要將他們所做的出國的考察報告都應該要公開要寫得詳盡所以在這裡提出預算是簡略"},{"start":2647.892,"end":2648.732,"text":"第1案的部分我們麻煩機關回覆"},{"start":2667.189,"end":2692.207,"text":"好,謝謝主席也謝謝翁委員的垂詢翁委員這個案其實橫跨四個科目它不是一個科目它是四個科目有關一般行政還有議事業務還有參加國際會議那其他我來做一個綜合報告然後針對個別的包括第一案、第八案、第九案、二十一案、二十二案、二十三案都跟國外旅費有關我在個別"},{"start":2693.287,"end":2712.383,"text":"案號的時候我在做分別對各位委員做說明那在第一案的部分其實我們這一次的國外旅費總共有四個項目第一個是一般行政包括翁委員剛剛提到的這個所謂黑熊的問題這個其實是我們每年職員出國的部分那題目由我們職員自己選定這是31萬5"},{"start":2714.925,"end":2724.928,"text":"這一次主要是因為我們要去北海道跟長野縣看人雄如何共存但可能題目寫得不夠清楚所以這個部分我們可以同意刪除"},{"start":2730.61,"end":2750.103,"text":"第2個部分一般行政的部分是有關首長副首長的出國費用因為我們現在有很多國際會議要參加包括監察院每年參加的這個IOI的會議Apple的會議還有FEEL的會議那另外還有國家人權委員會參加每年的亞太人權論壇的部分所以這個我們是編319萬這是編在議事業務事項裡面"},{"start":2755.246,"end":2762.352,"text":"第3個部分是有關人權會的部分是我們所有人權的活動跟這個參訪交流這個是編了400加200那400加200的意思其實是我們這個包括參加我剛才提到的這個亞太人權論壇的這個部分還有200的部分是我們每年有不同的國家在參訪甚至是互訪"},{"start":2784.449,"end":2800.92,"text":"因為基於這個跟外交部共同的一個默契我們通常不會事先公開但是事後我們都有很清楚的詳列在決算表裡面也都有所以總共我們總共是四個項目那剛剛提到的這個職員出國是31萬5首長副首長是80萬"},{"start":2805.302,"end":2817.367,"text":"國際會議是319萬那其他人權的部分是400加200所以這個總共加起來是1296那我們是建議不要刪除這麼多以上報告請問翁委員你有接受機關的說法嗎"},{"start":2825.143,"end":2847.053,"text":"我剛剛聽了秘書長的這個說法讓我很驚訝啊就是竟然就是出國的這個項目是可以由職員自己去選擇他要出國做什麼然後到哪個地點然後這次說到日本考察黑熊保育是要去了解人熊共處這跟你們立法院的職權有什麼關係"},{"start":2848.334,"end":2849.575,"text":"這幾年來我們調查包括原住民狩獵習慣跟這個也是動物保育我們總共這幾年來查了32案"},{"start":2868.974,"end":2890.224,"text":"這個部分我們認為其實它比例相當高所以我們的職員自己選定這個題目那選定這個題目要去日本的長野還有這個北海道看棕熊跟黑熊然後研究如何這個學習日本的人熊共存的這個部分那這個我剛剛已經說明很清楚如果委員有爭議的話我們就把這個項目拿掉"},{"start":2893.223,"end":2916.45,"text":"對我是說從你們這次的這個出國地點就可以凸顯出在出國這個做公務考察都沒有仔細去思考啊像我們現在就是大家很關心的超市雞蛋的問題還有疫苗採採購的問題還有很多的這個這個政務官他可能接受什麼性招待啊等等的這些問題你們都不去查也不去了解說人家國外怎麼做"},{"start":2917.51,"end":2939.731,"text":"政府競選的採購有很多的部分我跟委員報告的是主席不好意思我會議詢問一下那個請主席維持一下這裡的秩序什麼時候來這邊備席的官員沒有得到主席的同意可以自己按麥克風講話是不是可以請主席規範一下沒問題"},{"start":2942.421,"end":2967.854,"text":"那今天剛剛會議上我們麻煩列席的機關我們先等委員把話講完之後然後再麻煩列席機關回覆好謝謝那翁委員繼續好所以我要講就是說其實這個所有的公務出國去考察這個雖然是有必要性但是我們要看到他這個出國考察回來的成效是如何那這些年來我們不覺得說監察院他出國去考察參加這些國際會議然後所做的這個觀摩"},{"start":2971.736,"end":2999.214,"text":"對於他們要增進監察院的職權有什麼幫助反而就是說我們這邊講的這個國會調查權然後監察院調查權在國外他其實本來也就是可以各自都會有行可以就是獨立行使的對你們也反對啊那看但是真的這個調查權全部都讓你們去做你們也沒有做得很好所以我認為說其實出國經費還是要依照就是這個公務的需求而且基於經費尊潔的原則的話應該要刪除謝謝"},{"start":3005.738,"end":3030.189,"text":"還是說中召委講完然後再請機關一併回覆是的剛剛聽到我們提案委員的垂詢也聽到機關代表的回覆關於國外旅費這個事情歷年來立法院的審查都是列入重點所以我非常認同有委員針對機關的國外旅費我們強加的考核"},{"start":3031.608,"end":3045.474,"text":"但是我剛剛聽到提案委員在提到說監察院應該用力的去查社會上的一些弊案還包括說不曉得是指哪一個案子有接受性招待的這樣的案子"},{"start":3046.445,"end":3068.289,"text":"那如果按照剛剛委員的詢問跟要求這樣的邏輯要查什麼案子那就要去針對那個案子的屬性去進行國外的考察那如果有提案有接受到檢舉說有涉及到官員涉及到性招待那是否國外旅費就要去考察阿姆斯坦的紅燈區我覺得這個邏輯可能要釐清一下"},{"start":3072.19,"end":3098.536,"text":"因此我首先要接下來要請我們機關代表逐一的就剛剛的交換意見當中逐一的來釐清第一剛剛提到也生動於保育監察案偵查院受理到相關的案件相關的不管糾談案有32件那具體的內容是什麼第二監察院有沒有受理到"},{"start":3100.275,"end":3123.104,"text":"檢舉官員接受性招待或其他社會上所謂的矚目的弊案那你們怎麼進行相關必要資料的收集跟一些實況的掌握第三你們如果說因為國內的生態保育有許多的檢舉案但是你們要為了掌握實情譬如說就我所知"},{"start":3124.451,"end":3129.438,"text":"目前保育團體對於在原鄉部分的狩獵的獸甲"},{"start":3131.516,"end":3154.55,"text":"被認為這是對於動物保護是有侵犯的但是也有原住民團體認為這是基於原住民的既有的風俗他們特定的方法他們維持傳統以來研習的習俗那所以到底監察院受理的相關為師的案件他在實況上怎麼運作"},{"start":3156.343,"end":3163.267,"text":"要如何進行考察那麼我的第三點就是說那是哪些人因為受理了這些相關的案件因此他必須要去做相關應國外經驗的瞭解是所謂的考察的職員是所謂的調查官、調查員"},{"start":3177.077,"end":3192.803,"text":"而這些調查官、調查員他們平常在我們監察院受理的相關糾談案當中他們所扮演的角色跟執掌他們要負責收集到什麼樣的資料來提供給監察委員立案調查監察委員去進行調查這是第三點"},{"start":3193.883,"end":3199.95,"text":"第4點,剛剛提到我們科目當中國外旅會的112萬4千元這其實是兩個項目一個是包括我們監察院剛剛機關代表所說的這是因為要促進提升"},{"start":3209.281,"end":3227.533,"text":"我們調查人員他們對於相關糾談案他們的市政的一些掌握但是也包括了首長他們其他出席國際會議聽起來好像剛剛聽到這個部分的需要那是不是能夠就這四點分別的語語說明我要不要再從這邊1234點能不能請說明謝謝我覺得周委員講得非常好"},{"start":3237.987,"end":3258.907,"text":"但中委員講的所有的好都建議在一個基礎之上就是監察院不是廢物那你的講的都有基礎給你這麼多預算監察院到現在讓大家滿意嗎我跟大家講有一種廢叫做廢的理直氣壯叫做廢的坐領高薪叫做廢的樂觀東廠"},{"start":3261.593,"end":3288.546,"text":"所以我說實在話今天監察院的廢還不是羅志強認證的阿民進黨都說監察院要廢阿李靜玉你也說監察院要廢阿然後包括陳菊都說監察院要廢阿你們很努力的廢監察院但你們很努力的拿監察院的薪水阿拿薪水拿得臉不紅氣不喘其他單位的國外的考察"},{"start":3289.912,"end":3306.099,"text":"我們今天在審的時候就是當用則用對不對當審則審但是我看不出監察院今天給你我們周委員客氣啦我的提案是全三啦你既然那麼廢給你預算幹什麼都是人民納稅錢辛辛苦苦的錢剛剛講性糟糕就陳宗彥老直接講啊"},{"start":3317.335,"end":3319.497,"text":"你監察院交出審計單有讓人家滿意嗎?你監察院變成護航院就算了,你的高雄城是不是通常代表?"},{"start":3326.496,"end":3327.036,"text":"王委員"},{"start":3351.721,"end":3372.452,"text":"我剛剛講的就是陳忠彥如果說是中委員你不知道我在說誰的話就是行政院前發言人陳忠彥遭控接受性招待監察院彈劾不成立你說要這樣子的話是不是監察院要去考察荷蘭的紅燈區"},{"start":3374.98,"end":3403.9,"text":"我有這麼說嗎 對不對你要去考慮一下如果是這樣的話那應該是到荷蘭去看看人家怎麼樣去檢查什麼去這個調查類似像這樣子的政府官員我告訴你啦如果說今天監察院說是要到北海道長野然後去了解人雄共處不用跑那麼遠你到中山大學你就可以去實際上去了解人猴共處是怎麼樣一回事還要跑到長野去了解人雄共處"},{"start":3405.517,"end":3424.286,"text":"這個實在是沒有那個必要性而且這跟你們監察院的這個職權就縱使有關也不需要花人民的納稅錢然後跑到這麼遠去了解人雄共處你們實際上是有跟雄豬在一起嗎對不對這不需要這樣子做然後再加上你們現在有些這個就像我剛說的你們編了一些國外的這個出國考察回來的報告寫的也不清不楚看起來就是沒有那個必要性啊所以刪減"},{"start":3433.666,"end":3434.708,"text":"我還算客氣的待會的話我們還可以再看其他的項目其實有很多地方是應該該刪的"},{"start":3445.199,"end":3467.592,"text":"好,那我們麻煩機關代表說明好,謝謝主席主席剛剛一開始就交代我們是依照案號依照項目刪除的科目來說明那溫委員的提案是指國外旅費那剛剛我回答溫委員的是指國外旅費其實編列在三個不同的項目裡面所以用國外旅費這樣子我必須詳細的說明"},{"start":3469.453,"end":3490.742,"text":"第一個有關黑熊中熊這個問題我們已經談過很多次了那我說明的是我們的我們的我們的同仁認為說這個部分這個議題確實比較嚴重那所以他們希望去日本學習那這個包括北海道跟長野那如果委員認為有爭議我剛剛一開始我也說那這一項我們就拿掉31萬"},{"start":3494.884,"end":3511.982,"text":"第2個部分就是有關剛剛提到的這個所謂的這個接受性招待有沒有彈劾這個其實跟國外旅費一點關係都沒有那我跟溫委員報告如果你說的是接受性招待那我們總共有3個案子有3個案子"},{"start":3513.684,"end":3522.651,"text":"一個案子是這個台南津巴局的陳凱琳這個已經彈劾了另外是在這個禮拜才彈劾的這個營建署的組長這個也彈劾了那另外有關你說陳宗彥案陳宗彥案是用A案的內容作為B案的證據所以在法律上我們沒有辦法同意所以彈劾不通過這非常懸殊的筆述彈劾不通過不通過以後我們請台南地檢署針對這件事情重啟調查"},{"start":3543.326,"end":3560.067,"text":"台南地檢署後來也起訴陳忠彥,這個案子還在我們監察院的調查範圍當中,所以並沒有不處理。您剛剛講的是國外履備的部分,所以我針對國外履備的部分清楚地跟您報告。其他的我們依照"},{"start":3561.849,"end":3588.105,"text":"案號的順序我們再一一的說明那國外旅費我還是要強調除了剛剛所講的這個職員出國以外另外最重要的是國際會議的參與國際會議的參與我們這個每年固定參與的就是IOI APPLE跟FEEL的年會那FEEL在今年好不容易我們爭取到正式的會員正式的會員那所以這個部分還是必須去參加的這是國外旅費所以我們請委員在家考慮以上謝謝"},{"start":3593.293,"end":3605.263,"text":"請問一下機關的部分按照第一項翁小林所提出來的檢列及凍結500萬元這個部分不知道機關有什麼建議什麼想法"},{"start":3607.18,"end":3629.988,"text":"如果是指國外履備的話我們三個項目加起來總共三個科目總共加起來是1296萬那我剛剛已經說得很清楚了這個職員的部分315000我們就拿掉那其他的部分包括我們的議事業務包括我們的調查巡查我們委員出國是沒有出去玩的我們委員出國是要做通案性調查的"},{"start":3632.17,"end":3642.583,"text":"總共1296的出國費用加起來三個項目的話我們可不可以建議說包括人權會的部分整個刪除兩百萬"},{"start":3649.864,"end":3676.519,"text":"之前我們委員會在進行預算審查的時候關於國外旅費的部分大概有各式各樣的意見跟見解有鑑於過去我們在院會處理之前大概類似有些共通性的費用會通案的去做處理我是建議關於國外旅費的審查我們是建議交院會協商以通案原則處理"},{"start":3680.832,"end":3681.832,"text":"黃委員還是翁委員黃委員"},{"start":3707.239,"end":3729.266,"text":"因為現在只有在處理國外旅費的部分所以台灣民眾黨黨團針對有關於監察院整體預算我們處理的原則我到下一案的時候再來進行說明第二點針對提案委員的提案我們是尊重但尊重歸尊重台灣民眾黨黨團我們有自己的提案全三"},{"start":3730.495,"end":3746.867,"text":"立場非常清楚全三要這裡處理也可以不要這裡處理要到院會處理也可以但我們不會同意把監察院跟其他機關做通案性的處理這一點我覺得立場要表明清楚"},{"start":3747.929,"end":3760.93,"text":"民進黨黨團希望通案處理我尊重民進黨黨團他們的政策立場台灣民眾黨黨團是絕對不可能把監察院的預算就出國的事情跟其他的行政機關"},{"start":3762.793,"end":3781.925,"text":"通案處理這也是我們的政策立場那最後針對過去啊出國考察實際上面的效果如何報告在監察院上面相關的網站有所有的公民大家都可以上去看都可以形成自己的評價"},{"start":3783.266,"end":3806.963,"text":"如果公民上去看監察院的報告看了說我們這些監委陸力重工出國考察行程滿滿回來收穫滿滿立法院刪除我們這些監察院的院長副院長監察委員出國考察的費用是立法院不對那我們今天提案刪除"},{"start":3807.924,"end":3834.892,"text":"出國考察費用的立法委員我們自然要接受民意的檢驗我們自然要承擔政治責任這本來就是民主政治的常軌嘛那最後一個是說內容太多了啦說監委出去沒有出去玩的我真的不曉得怎麼吐槽啊多得不得了啊我隨便舉一個啊"},{"start":3836.741,"end":3861.859,"text":"2024年4月監委蔡崇義等人去澳洲考察國家人權機構有兩天跑去參觀坎培拉市區跟文化景點去參觀坎培拉市區跟文化景點是要呼吸坎培拉的空氣要參觀文化景點才可以冷靜的讓頭腦知道要如何增進臺灣的人權狀況"},{"start":3864.926,"end":3875.274,"text":"參觀雪梨市區及文化景點要到雪梨市區去呼吸雪梨的空氣參觀文化景點才知道要怎麼促進我們國家人權的業務"},{"start":3879.725,"end":3905.56,"text":"荒謬至極所以我再重申台灣民眾黨黨團的立場其他委員的提案我們尊重有委員說要通案處理我尊重其他黨團的意見表達台灣民眾黨黨團針對有關於監察院預算整體的原則我到下一案是我們提案的時候我再綜合說明不過針對出國考察的這個"},{"start":3908.003,"end":3914.414,"text":"項目向下,台灣民眾黨黨團所抱持的立場是全部刪除。以上"},{"start":3921.872,"end":3945.344,"text":"主席因為本來我們也都是就提案順序來做處理來做討論那不過呢在剛剛那個國外旅會的部分呢已經有其他黨人的代表提及到他們通案的原則我記得通案原則是就國外旅費在立法院預算審議的慣例但是剛剛有代表有其他黨人委員提到說就整個監察院的獨特性"},{"start":3946.164,"end":3966.237,"text":"他們是主張要全三那這樣的一個立場我們也尊重因為各黨團過去對於監察院的立場如何其實社會都舉目昭昭大家都很清楚有沒有實際的去推動廢除監察院所必要的修憲的作為過去也歷歷在目那如果我絲毫沒有去推動"},{"start":3967.397,"end":3988.846,"text":"廢除監察院的作為現在只摘其他政黨的政策主張然後呢說主張廢監察院的沒有去刪監察院的預算不主張廢監察院的主張要刪監察院預算這樣的邏輯是非常的可笑必須當你要求別人要邏輯一致的時候先檢討自己的邏輯是不是一致"},{"start":3989.426,"end":4005.838,"text":"接下來我就就這樣的一個政黨的立場來對監察院的預算審查立場已經預作表錄了不用到下一案這一案我們就可以來做一個整體的審視首先監察院剛剛有一個案子通過了叫做稅入部分稅入部分"},{"start":4007.545,"end":4018.251,"text":"認為監察院一無四處的委員或政黨完全沒有提出提案完全沒有提出我們看看監察院的稅率多少監察院的稅率編了2650萬其中包括違反公職人員財產申報法公職人員利益衝突迴避法"},{"start":4025.655,"end":4041.149,"text":"政治獻金法遊說法的規定他們預期有罰還的收入每案30萬元乘以30個案公職人員利充法每案20萬元預計有27案政治獻金法每案有10萬元預計是120萬遊說法是編列了10萬"},{"start":4044.565,"end":4067.082,"text":"好了我們就看到了監察院從憲政機關的立場來講我們認為臺灣未來的國家分權應該是三權或是五權不用再說但是在沒有完成修憲的程序之前憲法機關的存在根據釋字的解釋基於憲法忠誠的義務我們必須尊重他既有憲法職權的行使"},{"start":4067.702,"end":4094.997,"text":"目前監察院還沒有廢止之前．中華民國還不能走上三權分立之前．監察院目前在做的事情．就包含了剛剛他的稅路項目．這些公職財產申報．公職人員的利充．政治獻金、遊說法那如果大家認為．因為主宰要廢監察院．所以這些事項監察院就不用做了關於金華城當中有沒有涉及到政治獻金的問題．有沒有涉及到公務人員利充的問題．"},{"start":4096.702,"end":4122.094,"text":"這些還有財產申報的問題那這些是否我們同意監察院繼續維持他對這方面的職權行使呢顯然的如果用剛剛的邏輯來講關於稅務的提案部分完全沒有政黨提出質疑表示監察院目前在下年度應該合宜的在他的憲法機關的一個定位之下在現有的各項的法律的依準之下"},{"start":4122.614,"end":4148.988,"text":"在這些法律、憲法沒有變更之前．他就必須依照他憲法忠誠．基於憲政的職權．憲法的職權．法定的義務．憲法的義務．法定的職權．他去對於這些公職人員財產申報．公職人員利益衝突．政治獻金等等的法律．他去執行．這是國家能夠維持常態運作的方法．那既然在稅路的部分．都不主張監察院不要去做這些事情．"},{"start":4149.528,"end":4170.536,"text":"都不主張監察院不用去管財產申報法不用去管利沖法不用去管政治獻金法那麼表示目前監察院正在進行中的包括金華城等相關的政治弊案政治獻金都應該要進其他的法定職責去進行執行對於明年度可能因為進行這個職選有相關的收入都應該要以認列"},{"start":4172.037,"end":4197.411,"text":"那麼我不曉得其他的政黨口口聲聲說要廢除監察院要刪掉他所有的職權預算那你稅率預算刪了沒啊人的發言啊政黨的立場啊要前後一致邏輯一致啊那至於呢我看看監察院代表在回應之前的我也說明一下我相信在座的不法委員跟公務人員都有出國可能都有參與出國考察的經驗"},{"start":4199.242,"end":4224.441,"text":"臺灣是週休二日我們的公務考察也是在對方的上班時間週一到週五去進行考察如果我們在星期六日去考察人家的國會你就跟一般觀光客一樣只能順著導覽人員去晃兩圈但是如果你要做官司拜訪必然的是在週一到週五尊重對方的上班日期有些國家不是週休二日有些國家不是週六跟週日"},{"start":4226.883,"end":4253.02,"text":"如果真的有認真去做你到馬來西亞你到伊斯蘭教的國家他們的休息日不是西方世界的週六或週日你必須遵照人家宗教的規定在人家的安息時間不得去打擾在這種情況之下各種的考察的行程必須因應我們考察當地的風俗習慣跟法律的規定我們去進行考察那麼如果一個考察跨越了一週以上七天的時間"},{"start":4254.241,"end":4275.214,"text":"可能就會遇到這些無法進行公視拜訪的日程那麼也不要忘了考察的人員他如果在國內工作上班他也是有他的利休所以一個國外的考察我們要求的是工廠要花在刀口上考察人員必須在他領受工廠近期義務的時候去完成他該計劃項目的責任"},{"start":4279.016,"end":4300.018,"text":"但是我們不會要求你理能工廠出國考察你在飛機上不能睡覺你在旅館裡面不能休息你在別人的週末假日你要進行機關的探視去看人家門窗鎖好了嗎是這樣的意思嗎我是覺得這個部分也是覺得小小的一個疑問如果真的有做出國考察的人員"},{"start":4300.638,"end":4311.288,"text":"都應該去看一下出國考察的內容的安排為時的來看待這件事情所以本期還是建議這個國外履歷的部分我們保留送協商羅委員先舉手他剛剛就舉手了我跟你講我真的不能再認同鍾嘉賓更多了講得太好了我覺得非常感動"},{"start":4327.148,"end":4346.686,"text":"民進黨現在有一個修憲提案叫做廢除監察院 鄭嘉賓啊 隨便啦 你們就提啊 你們陳亭飛有提 你們測案了嗎 我不知道 我沒跟上進度陳亭飛有提啊 有測案了嗎 陳亭飛提了修憲案測案了嗎 廢除監察院的"},{"start":4348.589,"end":4375.38,"text":"不用擔心 你們聯署絕對夠我今天在這邊 我跟宗家斌保證 我不管今天國民黨立場是什麼你只要 宗家斌你提案 提修憲案 廢監察院 我就這樣通你一票我就通你一票 廢就沒關係 我幫你拉票你提出來啊 宗家斌你是稍微提出來 黃國昌也署張廢啊 沒錯吧對不對 民眾黨八票啊 羅志強一票啊 我再幫你拉票"},{"start":4376.42,"end":4392.849,"text":"我在努力幫你拉票 你們民進黨做個示範啦 你看說回去嘛我跟你講 你是司法的召委 你們民進黨有修憲的提案躺在立法院還跟我騙屆期不連續趁聽飛的跑下去死掉啦"},{"start":4393.929,"end":4416.206,"text":"陳婷菲這屆提的陳婷菲這屆提的阿沒有關係阿我跟你講我就說我認同你嘛嘉賓秀我這麼認同你你應該謝謝我阿你當詐偽你當詐偽真的我建議你趕快排案我跟你講我唯一我唯一一個齁我唯一他詐不答應他的事阿他已經講了副總都要同意就OK阿副總都同意都同意沒關係來來來沒關係我們OK阿我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦我們一次啦"},{"start":4423.303,"end":4439.351,"text":"三票 三票 提出來現場賺3加81一票對不對 沒問題啦我跟你講今天羅志強我就宣誓效忠民進黨好不好民進黨提大廚健康休憩給同一票"},{"start":4444.938,"end":4462.526,"text":"主主席我可以被擋計除非也沒關係我坦然接受我今天就是支持民進黨的廢除監察院修憲案好了第二點我要跟你講我唯一一個主張請宗家兵參考沒關係沒關係待會你回應請宗家兵參考一下我的主張更進一步"},{"start":4464.249,"end":4472.014,"text":"修憲案這麼重大的事照民進黨過去的標準要並2026年大選並2026年大選時程控制我只有這個要求民進黨不要到時候提一個修憲案在一個冷瘦瘦的天突然丟出去了"},{"start":4482.503,"end":4504.379,"text":"我只有這個主張小小的一個修正建議給我們宗嘉賓偉大宗嘉賓第二個我跟你講我第二個認同你的是什麼你剛才已經講了標準嘛主張廢除的人你就可以砍預算啊我就是啊我主張廢除努力砍啊可是你另外什麼你說你說什麼你說你說你說主張廢的不刪預算然後沒主張廢的刪預算"},{"start":4511.448,"end":4528.038,"text":"其中一個就是你們啊民進黨你們要主張廢了倒是不肯刪預算啊國民黨目前為止態度是國民黨的態度我羅志祥說過了我就是認為監察院該廢所以今天貫徹民進黨幫你預先把監察院廢掉刪他的預算所以今天刪預算很簡單啦大家好好看看嘛監察院跡象能看嗎監察院存在目的監督政府"},{"start":4541.903,"end":4570.365,"text":"這8年這監察院昏睡死裝瞎他不監督政府就算了我們國會改革提了監督政府的一個職能強化監察反對欸自己廢不行還要讓別人也一起廢自己不監督政府還讓別人也不能監督政府那接下來我要再回應有一點就不認同我們中召委啦我跟你講你說怎麼用通案來處理不要把別的機關拖下水好不好"},{"start":4571.049,"end":4591.016,"text":"我覺得法務部很棒阿對不對我覺得考試院也不錯阿對不對我覺得行政院很多機關也表現很好阿你為什麼把別的機關跟監察院一樣變廢物通案處理人家沒監察院這麼廢阿所以我們審預算的時候今天為什麼監察院砍得特別兇我們沒有對別的單位是這樣只有對監察院這樣因為就你廢嘛還是在重申民進黨的明年阿民進黨"},{"start":4598.664,"end":4624.656,"text":"講到監察院一個字結束了 廢陳菊講到監察院一個字結束了 廢李菊講到監察院一個字結束了 廢廢廢廢 通通要廢然後薪水你滿滿對不對 出國爽飽飽這就是監察院嗎所以莊嘉賓請你今天我們統一陣線喔擁戴莊嘉賓張美提案提出修憲案我們討論現場賺國民黨3票恭喜你"},{"start":4628.8,"end":4629.541,"text":"欸那個是剛剛先黃委員黃委員你剛剛有舉手"},{"start":4634.291,"end":4661.589,"text":"對黃委員那個本來是要按照提案來討論嘛那不過剛剛鍾嘉斌委員有指教他要跳到更高的層次來討論那也沒有關係我們就跳到更高的層次來討論嘛我先表達台灣民眾黨黨團的立場啊廢除監察院就是我們的主張廢除監察院就是我們的主張"},{"start":4663.345,"end":4663.565,"text":"所以﹖"},{"start":4676.946,"end":4706.004,"text":"所以我們現在迫於無奈在監察院還沒有完全廢止之前我們只能夠在預算上面清楚忠實的反映我們的政策立場我們只能在預算上面清楚忠實的反映我們的政策立場我們絕對不會像民主進步黨一樣民主進步黨是高喊要廢除監察院廢了幾十年了"},{"start":4707.503,"end":4736.709,"text":"在幾十年啊現在的監察院院長陳菊當初喊要廢監察院喊得最大聲的發現有監察院院長可以當啊嚮得不得了啊很無奈啊迫於無奈啊非常的勉強去勸喊了他以前所要主張廢除的監察院院長說他希望啊他是最後一任"},{"start":4737.904,"end":4743.326,"text":"我們看民進黨過去這幾年對於監察院的處理怎麼會是最後一任監察院院長這麼香有這麼多人可以愁憂愁憂拿來做什麼愁憂拿來當打手啊當東廠啊遇到自己的人軟趴的"},{"start":4760.765,"end":4787.827,"text":"我為什麼說遇到自己人軟趴趴啊剛剛我們六席的秘書長講得很好啊有三個涉及性招待的啊有兩個被處理啊有一個沒有被處理啊那為什麼那兩個被處理關不夠大嘛小偉的嘛我們陳忠彥是當過行政院的發言人欸這麼重要的位置跟在我們民進黨中央權貴旁邊的陳忠彥"},{"start":4789.708,"end":4801.99,"text":"這一種大尾的怎麼可以彈劾啊他票數非常的高啊彈劾不成立啊這一種打小官不敢處理大尾的"},{"start":4803.207,"end":4821.272,"text":"監察院長期以來就是打蒼蠅不敢打老虎當初民進黨的立委都是這樣子看的他們都是這樣主張的等到自己全面控制了監察院以後更是把這樣的精神貫徹的淋漓盡致為什麼說把這樣的精神貫徹的淋漓盡致在我國"},{"start":4827.625,"end":4853.48,"text":"高官有去關說司法的邱泰山阿絕對是數一數二阿當過法務部部長的邱泰山公然去關說司法遇到我們民進黨的監察院沒事沒事沒事沒事邱泰山關說司法這件事情連他們自己高檢署所出來的行政調查報告都認定阿"},{"start":4855.021,"end":4871.44,"text":"認定到那個彭坤彥自己都不好意思再繼續待在桃園地檢署當任檢察長自己趕快退休不完了只有我們的邱泰山經過了監察院當他洗白了以後"},{"start":4872.581,"end":4878.063,"text":"認定關說司法彈劾沒有通過馬上華麗轉身說監察院幫我背書我邱泰山沒有關說司法然後繼續出任民進黨內閣閣員當上陸委會主委"},{"start":4891.71,"end":4919.836,"text":"所以我說我們的監察院啊不僅僅是養老院啊不僅僅是廢物院啊它還是東廠院啊還是打手院啊還是護航院啊剛剛中委員說欸那我們稅務的時候主張廢監察院的這些黨團怎麼沒有提案要刪剛剛莊嘉斌自己就已經回答了問題了嘛因為這個就是他既有憲法的職權啊"},{"start":4921.317,"end":4941.86,"text":"是他既有憲法的職權啊 現在既有憲法的職權 那請問他稅務的部分只有他可以罰 只有他可以罰 那要怎麼刪 這非常簡單的道理嘛 那我們就一樣一樣來講嘛 出國考察是監察院既有的憲法職權嗎 出國考察是監察院既有的職權嗎"},{"start":4944.907,"end":4962.857,"text":"這不是太可笑了嗎我們為什麼去貫徹我們在監察院裡面我說了在廢監察院以前有一些東西我們就沒有辦法做處理嘛台灣民眾黨黨團我們針對有關於監察院財產申報業務費用795萬8千元我們一塊都沒有算"},{"start":4973.669,"end":5001.237,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團針對監察院內部財產申報業務費用795萬8千元我們一塊錢通通都沒有刪通通都沒有刪那沒有辦法現在掛在監察院下面就讓他們去做財產的申報業務嘛這個是他的法定職權所以這件事情我們動通通都沒有動"},{"start":5002.515,"end":5020.665,"text":"至於說什麼政治獻金啊財產申報啊要讓監察院做 對啊但我們看監察院做的是什麼監察院做的是遇到綠營自家人就軟趴趴嘛我為什麼說遇到綠營自家人就軟趴趴陳歐珀跟蔡英文兩個人2020年"},{"start":5027.19,"end":5032.873,"text":"在伊蘭聯合的競選後援會那是不是無償供給的當然是無償供給的嘛"},{"start":5054.517,"end":5083.245,"text":"那請問現在監察院處理到什麼地方了?請問監察院處理到什麼地方了?雙標的這麼嚴重我們提案就有關於刪除監察院有關於刪除監察院是有一條線我們知道要貫徹政策立場我們就是什麼?在我們推動修憲廢除監察院成功以前"},{"start":5084.212,"end":5104.739,"text":"沒有必要的費用全部都刪除沒有必要的費用全部都刪除我們絕對不會像民主進步黨一樣嘴巴上面喊說要廢除監察院身體很誠實坐在這邊捍衛監察院的預算連出國考察的時候"},{"start":5106.452,"end":5132.337,"text":"為了要去幫監察院護航連什麼在旅館不能睡覺連在飛機上不能休息這種荒謬的言詞通通拿出來當護航的藉口民進黨對監察院的態度到底是什麼是不是之前說要廢後來發現監察院香的不得了除了政府院長秘書長還有一堆監委"},{"start":5135.362,"end":5138.123,"text":"全部可以拿來當籌擁的工具那現實上呢現實上在遇到監察院實際的運算的時候在這邊捍衛的這麼大聲喔監察院過去的辦案是真的有打老虎有真的辦到"},{"start":5161.035,"end":5189.171,"text":"民進黨自己的高官權貴還是打小力做做樣子全台灣人民心裡都有一個清楚的評價都有一個清楚的評價我再說一次台灣民眾黨黨團我們針對有關於監察院總體的預算人事費我們沒有刪我為什麼沒有刪人事費沒有辦法法定義務支出阿"},{"start":5190.916,"end":5214.604,"text":"你該給人家的錢這是人家的薪水啊人家的薪水你要怎麼算那但是我們雖然就這個部分沒有提但如果有委員提出來要刪除監察院院長的特資費我支持啊我絕對支持啊第二個財產申報業務的費用795萬8千元"},{"start":5219.264,"end":5227.549,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團沒有刪股金維護1454萬元沒有刪這個是我們展現出來的這是我們展現出來的政策立場我最後要呼籲一件事啦民進黨喊修憲要廢除監察院不要打假球啦不要打假球啦"},{"start":5249.844,"end":5251.886,"text":"我相信台灣社會看得很清楚"},{"start":5281.082,"end":5300.555,"text":"所以剛剛的發言已經充分的展現出雙標黨的標準可能不能說雙標黨其實台灣民眾黨還蠻一致的是從不同的政黨轉換角度轉換軌道的人比較不一致所以我這要提醒一下台灣民眾黨的確在2021年有提出了修憲提案"},{"start":5301.598,"end":5312.748,"text":"他們提出的修宣提案我幫那時候不在臺灣民眾黨還來不及加入臺灣民眾黨的委員復習一下一共當時的總召修宣員提出為什麼我記得因為第10屆的時候"},{"start":5315.526,"end":5342.883,"text":"民進黨也提出了修憲提案那時候民眾黨的提案包含了四個重點第一個人權路線第二個降低修憲門檻跟公民提案的門檻第三廢考監第四將選舉的並立制改為連立制如果有人要臨時加入某個政黨先看一看那個政黨在他不當立法委員的時候有過哪些主張這樣發言才不至於雙標"},{"start":5344.184,"end":5358.181,"text":"台灣民眾黨的確支持過修憲提案要廢考監當時第10屆的民進黨也是如此支持但是剛剛離席的國民黨的代表是不支持的"},{"start":5359.278,"end":5378.664,"text":"因為在第9、第10屆的時候我們好不容易能夠成立了修憲委員會修憲委員會三黨的代表都有也都分別推了召集委員本席在當時的第10屆也是修憲委員會的召集委員我們很認真的排了各項的公聽會"},{"start":5379.924,"end":5387.613,"text":"但是到最後當時的國民黨主席號令之下國民黨只支持同意或者說不反對18歲公民權路線"},{"start":5392.336,"end":5410.376,"text":"這個提案也不在當時的台灣民眾黨的提案當中但是他們後來也同意不反對但是實況上我們看到了由於修憲的門檻太高因此唯一能夠通過立法院三黨當時的台灣民眾黨中國國民黨跟"},{"start":5412.699,"end":5430.254,"text":"民進黨所成立的修憲委員會當中只有18歲公民權成案能夠送交公民投票去做決定那當時投票的結果很清楚當時投票的結果很清楚我們看到了"},{"start":5432.186,"end":5460.575,"text":"這個修憲在公民投票的時候跟當時民進黨和國民黨候選人該次選舉的候選人的得票是若和伏結的換言之當時支持18歲公民權提案的公民投票數跟該選區民進黨候選人的得票數相距非常的接近那顯見什麼顯見不反對不杯葛18歲公民權的中國國民黨"},{"start":5462.885,"end":5490.63,"text":"並不支持他們不反對的18歲公民權路線但是由於國民黨的反對費考監的提案在第10屆的修憲委員會並無法通過所以不要嘴巴講也不要在這邊宣傳主張拿出行動來我們看一看修憲的確是一個高門檻的工程我非常認同剛剛發言委員說修憲門檻太高了所以當年的台灣民眾黨是主張要降低修憲門檻"},{"start":5492.11,"end":5519.338,"text":"當時我擔任修憲委員會的召集委員我主持了公聽會我們也有很多選手參加呼應了應該降低修憲門檻但是很可惜的當時國民黨不支持所以沒有辦法通過歷史是永遠存在那裡的不會因為你雙標你刻意的忽略只提一些五四三的它就不存在那至於時代力量在第九屆的時候因為那個時候立法院沒有辦法成立修憲委員會"},{"start":5520.598,"end":5538.672,"text":"所以第9屆很可惜不曉得知道．無法知道當時的時代力量的幾位委員．包括在場當年的黃委員是否支持修憲．他們的修憲主張為何在立法院沒有正式的關係文書可知考察我就不敢隨便講因為"},{"start":5540.977,"end":5567.268,"text":"當任立法委員在立法院運用言論免責權做出各種不負責任的主張所在多有至於不擔任立法委員在其他的場合他是否指摘他在任命所陳述的各些弊案我覺得這個每次我們在立法院裡面總是要聽到很多委員善用言論免責權將過去在不擔任立法委員不敢拿出來講的不敢拿出來指摘的"},{"start":5567.668,"end":5568.048,"text":"對於這樣的雙標行為我們深感不解"},{"start":5588.803,"end":5608.99,"text":"也不認同但是我要提醒的如果台灣民眾黨願意誠懇的沿襲他們在第10屆的黨團立場那這四項路要繼續延續包括人權路線包括降低公民提案及修憲門檻包括廢考監那至於年曆改病曆病曆改年曆這個都可以討論我們非常樂見透過黨團的決議方式來正式的推動修憲委員會"},{"start":5616.852,"end":5643.321,"text":"而這個修憲委員會各黨團重要的為什麼第10屆可以成立修憲委員會因為當時的游錫堃院長非常積極的去召集朝野協商來推動可是反過來我們看到目前我們的韓國院長你去問他陳如跟剛剛羅委員一樣的你中嘉賓中召委你司法法制的召委你排案啊你提案啊抱歉啊修憲委員會是特種委員會啊"},{"start":5644.69,"end":5668.543,"text":"根據立法院各委員會組織法還有根據立法院組織法他是必須要經過院長召集草野協商來成立的特種委員會這個特種委員會在立法院過去第9屆都沒有辦法成立只有第10屆推動成立了如果今天為了預算的審查口口聲聲說尤其是剛剛羅委員的指教剛剛我是說你的邏輯主張廢監察院的就應該刪預算"},{"start":5670.014,"end":5692.551,"text":"要保留預算的要支持預算的你就等於是反對廢棄監察院這個邏輯口屁不通因為不是看你的主張是看你的作為民進黨過去持續的在推動三權分立的中華民國憲法台灣的體制但是得不到其他政黨的支持之下更正第10屆有得到當時台灣民眾黨的支持"},{"start":5693.581,"end":5720.509,"text":"但是國民黨不支持所以最後送到修憲委員會通出的送出的修憲提案這一個提案就是18歲公民權路線這些歷史都記載在關心文書當中不是現在在場的委員信口雌黃可以抹煞的所以如果國民黨的委員希望讓你們刪除監察院的預算來表彰你們反對你們要求廢除監察院的立場很好"},{"start":5721.958,"end":5736.419,"text":"事情有先後順序先後順序就在剛剛黃偉的發言當中黃偉怎麼說因為監察院還在啊他法定職權還在啊監察院主管的不是只有政治先進法不是只有公職人員參審申報法還有監察法"},{"start":5738.872,"end":5757.147,"text":"這些法定的職權還有憲法裡面的職權 糾談糾正糾舉彈劾這些根據憲法的相關條文規定必須由監察院的監察委員以合議的方式去開會那獨立調查合議開會做成決議"},{"start":5759.248,"end":5781.044,"text":"這些議事的預算就編列在我們的討論今天的討論提案的下一個提案當中我就很佩服居然可以說在稅路的部分監察院的這些稅路不刪除是因為監察院還有公職人員財產申報法還有政治獻金法必須依法執法依法執法就依法的收入"},{"start":5781.744,"end":5795.898,"text":"一法執法就一法的支出所以收入的部分稅率部分會支持稅數的部分也會支持那我們就希望未來待會的審查只要現在監察院還沒有達成三黨朝野共識成立修憲會來推動費考監之前那麼請大家繼續憲法忠誠"},{"start":5800.502,"end":5823.044,"text":"對於監察院現在依法行使的支權所必要的預算我們何時再來審查所謂的全部刪除這些預算你說糾正的糾舉的彈劾的這些預算請監察院如果細分他們做哪些事情用哪些錢哪些不是監察院法定職場的"},{"start":5824.145,"end":5844.636,"text":"此行為我們是可以預算刪除的哪些才是哪些才保留別忘了在下一章我們就可以看到如果說因為要保障公務人員的這個現代保護員保障他的工作權所以呢他有法定的編制法定的緣額法定的預算這些人事為止會不刪除"},{"start":5845.296,"end":5862.459,"text":"但是你對於他行使這些人員他依法行使的職權的業務費用你全數刪除那剛好坐實了剛剛發言者自己的邏輯就是坐領薪水不辦事為什麼因為薪水不刪但是呢做事的錢都刪"},{"start":5864.444,"end":5874.777,"text":"現在我們按照這個邏輯去審查監察院的預算法定的機關緣額法定的人事預算通通保留 通通維持那麼這些人的薪水照發"},{"start":5876.158,"end":5903.05,"text":"但是他們要去進行任何監察權的糾舉調查對不起這些議事費用通通刪除那不就剛好做實了嘴巴說一套身體很誠實真正的行為讓監察院這些有公務人員依法保障身份的人員他是坐領薪水或者說坐領乾薪但是毫無其他依法的業務作為"},{"start":5904.826,"end":5930.078,"text":"我們待會在下一頁就可以看到了剛好我在等著有發言委員對於稅入案提出了他的寶貴見解依法職權的行為我們支持我們保持他的預算科目跟內容那接下來我們看一看哪些要刪除的預算不是依既有的法定職權所要做的事情我們等著一項一項來檢討"},{"start":5932.345,"end":5953.821,"text":"好等一下那個中稍微你立委做那麼久了這個薪水就不能刪啦這個你不懂嗎所以你講的東西不是啊他們當然是刪職權能刪的嘛我不懂我不懂我只懂法律的規定齁法律能刪的我們或能動的我們才能處理嘛阿不能處理的阿結果就是坐以擔心很簡單"},{"start":5957.939,"end":5958.259,"text":"吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":5986.185,"end":5991.649,"text":"我想說我就講幾個簡單的東西就好了啦就是監察院現在給我的感覺是這樣齁"},{"start":5994.602,"end":6024.002,"text":"我覺得你們剛有談到陳中彥的案子的時候對確實就沒有處理好嘛那從司法機關來看你那個陳起玉的案子你們去給人家干涉然後檢察官的團體建議檢改出來罵然後陳龍祥檢察官被談的是檢察官團體出來罵那難道那些檢察官們他們也是介入政治嗎他那個團體是跟政治完全無關的我們上一次去北檢視察他們都沒有出來罵結果出來罵的是誰政客跟側翼"},{"start":6025.143,"end":6046.762,"text":"然後還在那邊鬼扯什麼繼承檢察官大反彈就我們去問去看檢察官論壇根本沒有什麼人在談這個事情然後側翼就說檢察官繼承了大反彈啊到最後都鬼扯就是側翼配合的政客在那邊亂搞一通嘛但是真正被檢察官團體出來罵的事情這些政客跟側翼又不見了那監察院你今天如果你真的"},{"start":6047.623,"end":6064.703,"text":"有在做事 做福國利民的事情 我們當然支持嘛那你今天做的一些事情 我說真的 我不我跟你講 光是我聽到的一些事 或者是譬如說陳榮祥的案子 當時我就還在檢方啊 你們根本搞不清楚 既成假官多生氣啊"},{"start":6066.291,"end":6093.522,"text":"你們根本搞不清楚阿 其實非常非常生氣阿然後這次陳祺毅的案子大家也非常生氣結果呢好像也沒有這件事情然後陳仲彥的案子好像都完全傳過水無痕那我也在地方政府待過阿我在地方政府待的時候監察院對於某些縣市他的大小眼你以為基層的公務員看不懂嗎他對於一些"},{"start":6095.029,"end":6103.556,"text":"所以我不點出哪個特定的案子因為不是今天的主軸但是那個給人家感覺是監察院他在有一些人他"},{"start":6104.858,"end":6133.46,"text":"以前主張要廢除監察院但是他在取得這個權限之後呢他卻覺得超級好用超級好用之下他就越用越誇張其實不要以為人民看不懂不要以為司法官看不懂不要以為基層公務員看不懂其實大家都看在眼裡阿是誰把自己給玩爛了然後現在來說你不可以刪我什麼然後剛剛我在上面聽了我覺得聽了半天一頭霧水什麼時候我國的薪水可以由立法院刪掉"},{"start":6134.241,"end":6140.979,"text":"我真的聽不懂但是有一些執行業務上面像剛剛羅志強委員說的你今天如果說"},{"start":6142.281,"end":6167.617,"text":"不是只有做不好是還做壞事的時候那我讓你執行業務那對嗎執行越多幹越多壞事所以我還是這樣啦我還是支持一個點啦就是合理的刪我不要報復性的刪所以我們是合理的該刪就刪那你也請大家彼此尊重如果我認為我對監察院的印象是這樣我行使我立法委員的權限去做"},{"start":6169.138,"end":6190.694,"text":"我認為可以的刪除,那請還是要尊重我們齁好,以上好,那個秀岩好我請教秘書長者齁我們這個出國的經費齁"},{"start":6196.434,"end":6219.844,"text":"一千兩百多萬,平均一位委員是多少?這不是這樣算啦!我知道啦!我知道啦!就是說你把剩下剩下這部分提起來的委員平均你委員一年要開多少出國的經費?我們一八十四年,一一四年編的是一千兩百九十六萬全部加起來,包括職員,包括委員,包括政府院長。一千兩百多萬。幾年一位委員出國的部分開多少?"},{"start":6227.448,"end":6249.039,"text":"今年度比去年增加大概100多萬今年度就是113年度一個委員總共大概出國我們從來沒有這樣算吧他出去幾次嘛那整個一次禮費他報銷了多少錢我們沒有這樣變啦我們就是說出去參加國際會議還是一個委員有30萬沒有啦沒有啦沒有到30萬沒有啦有20萬沒有一個委員大概沒有超過5萬啦"},{"start":6255.846,"end":6269.677,"text":"一個委員只能處理一半而已?不一定,包括他要檢驗人權委員的可能處理比較一半通案訊號只有一次通案訊號只有一次,那個人權委員要看什麼樣的國際會議我講的很清楚你這個國外的陸委,我為什麼要提出這個呢?因為立法委員也一樣有國外考察的補助"},{"start":6284.11,"end":6297.799,"text":"一個人二十萬我今年就是專門來擔任的我沒有出國啊但我一天就沒報為什麼?因為我覺得我出去沒有考察我是去休閒我去休閒所以我回來一天我就不敢報我二十萬我一天就沒報為什麼?"},{"start":6308.14,"end":6316.042,"text":"我感覺這個國家要讓我們去審查的 我不再審查了 我回來也沒什麼報告啊 所以我不敢合宵啊 我個人啦 這是我個人 所以我認為刪掉是合理啊 但是你說總和你刪去沒處理交流 這是不合理啦 所以我支持 針對出國這個部分"},{"start":6332.967,"end":6341.476,"text":"王小林這個案5百萬是剛好而已啊山豬5百萬這是我最強在主張的啊啊如果要說中山我也沒有反對啊"},{"start":6345.066,"end":6363.199,"text":"但我不應該說因為我幫你中山你都參處理包括臨環科交流包括夾布科察都沒有我留一室的空間所以我個人經歷的資料三度五百萬但我現在再跟你說明我因為知道年底要幫你申請這個務職當時我幫你請教的時候我也是問你說"},{"start":6373.001,"end":6389.426,"text":"因為過去的主長、政體主長．到現在你來在這個單位．人不一樣的為地總是要面對．這個進步的接任．所以我的尊重你是必須長．你所屬所為．到你做立委的時期的主長．我不會拿那個來跟你說你現在要怎樣．但是我今天要跟你山東出國的經費的時候．我本身我先做"},{"start":6400.623,"end":6409.533,"text":"我對2月7日我就已經想起來在擔任了你可知道所以這是我個人共在主張這個500萬要刪除好那就麻煩機關出名"},{"start":6420.732,"end":6426.578,"text":"感謝財務委員．我代你報告一個．一人編20萬不用報告這我們都知道基本上我剛才說明很清楚兩項事情一項是出國費用 文委員建議要3.5萬會造成我們運作的困難"},{"start":6440.58,"end":6447.405,"text":"因為我剛才已經講過了參加國際會議交流這個部分都要我自己已經承諾說要不然我們先推200萬起來這我已經有做承諾了因為我們隆重所有的加起來才變一千兩百九十六萬所以我們推200萬起來這是比較合理的留一些讓我們有空運作第二部分主席我接受他的說明減50萬台幣850"},{"start":6468.571,"end":6474.833,"text":"這有困難啦老實說這有困難啦那個羅委員沒關係因為大概審到我是全三我反對啦黃委員謝謝主席喔剛剛聆聽了鍾嘉賓委員的高論為了要去護航監察院的預算然後把過去發生的一些什麼修憲的狀況都拿出來講沒有錯台灣民眾黨黨團我們從頭到尾就是要費考監"},{"start":6499.15,"end":6516.477,"text":"之前時代力量一樣抱持相同的看法阿第二個倒是專案兵委員在講到監察院的預算的時候可以扯到18歲公民權的投票率阿我也是看了探為觀止阿但當時什麼當時我們大家都站出來阿在街頭揭獎阿"},{"start":6518.16,"end":6542.071,"text":"支持18歲公民權只是我不太瞭解18歲公民權跟現在在廢考間有什麼關係至於說剛剛蔡委員提到說並立志改成連立志沒有錯這是台灣民眾黨黨團的主張我提醒一下這也是2016年蔡英文競選總統的時候她所提出來的主張但民進黨向來的個性是什麼"},{"start":6543.251,"end":6568.408,"text":"以前在野的時候所提到的主張國會的選制要從並立制改成聯立制等到自己什麼等到自己掌握權力了以後民進黨還要履行過去國會的選制從並立制改成聯立制嗎有嗎我什麼時候聽民進黨的委員在2016年以後說要從並立制改成聯立制"},{"start":6569.893,"end":6590.976,"text":"來看民進黨有同意並立志改成聯立志非常非常好履行你們過去的主張我們大家一起來推動我們大家一起來推動高中委員說不要嘴巴講然後身體很誠實我們什麼時候只有嘴巴講台灣民政黨要廢考監"},{"start":6593.302,"end":6620.207,"text":"我基本上記者會最少開了兩次我提案都開始簽了啊但現在什麼個別黨團沒有辦法提出修憲案嘛需要29位立委需要29位立委的連署所以我剛剛什麼剛剛我們把我們還沒有連署完的東西我請同仁送過來我特別感謝羅志祥委員啊我剛剛拿給他人家說一是一啊"},{"start":6621.229,"end":6638.036,"text":"他說他支持啊他馬上就簽啊所以中委員你要不要一起簽一下你要不要一起簽一下不要說嘴巴講一套身體很誠實嘛人家羅志強說他贊成我剛拿給他簽他馬上就簽啊那中央病委員請問你有要簽嗎中央病委員請問你有要簽嗎"},{"start":6646.752,"end":6673.425,"text":"沒有啦我現在在講我的話嘛對啊我老實講啦人家在講話的時候你什麼時候要回答我尊重你啊我只是講什麼啊你說不要說一套做一套嘛就千萬不要說一套做一套啊你要廢監察院非常好啊提案拿出來啊"},{"start":6674.571,"end":6703.98,"text":"提案拿出來嘛你如果說這個是現在上面這幾個委員的提案你不願意你要自己當主提案人沒有關係那你就當主提案人啊我們大家一起來簽嘛但還是回到今天要討論的議題嘛其實我講話喜歡就針對問題來回答但如果今天委員在發言的時候要講到18歲公民權要講到病歷改年歷那沒有辦法"},{"start":6705.595,"end":6728.387,"text":"我們只能什麼具體的回應嘛今天就監察院請容我再說一次啦監察院的預算應不應該大砍台灣社會每位公民都有自己的評價可能有人覺得我們監察院做得好棒棒啊專門在打老虎啊"},{"start":6734.755,"end":6763.26,"text":"非常有魄力啊監察院的預算一定要擁護到底啊台灣社會可能有人有這樣認為我們有尊重那台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是什麼監察院廢物院啊打手院啊工廠院啊我還記得很清楚啊當初陳其邁在當立委的時候監委那兩個字啊"},{"start":6764.249,"end":6779.813,"text":"是大大的作為記者會的背板那個時候他們寫監委這兩個字是怎麼寫的啊自己掌握權力了以後發現監委非常的香啊香得不得了這是我們沒有辦法支持的那個你剛剛有要發言嗎"},{"start":6793.737,"end":6795.498,"text":"我說過今天在這裡其實我是完全的同意我們鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員的就是說做人要一致嘛標準要一致嘛說到要做到嘛來來來羅志強就說到做到啊"},{"start":6820.765,"end":6839.871,"text":"今天不管國民黨的立場如何 組組協力的立場如何我主張廢除監察院 我就是主張廢除監察院所以剛剛國昌兄把民眾黨的提案拿給我我一秒都沒有猶豫我就簽下去了所以今天也拜託我們宗家兵委員 你要不要也來響應一下"},{"start":6841.553,"end":6861.398,"text":"提知即行（再不然就像黃國昌委員剛剛講的你自己去趕快把陳庭菲的提案拿出來我到現在不知道陳庭菲提案是不是被柯建民鎖掉了你只要提出來成立休憩委員會拿出來討論羅志強這一票絕對是鐵票我不會跑我刷過來就擋計處分我都接受很簡單這叫做標準一致性"},{"start":6870.819,"end":6878.893,"text":"所以 周家斌委員 你們常年在那邊算監察院費費費費 結果在預算就是什麼 戶戶戶戶戶戶戶戶很簡單嘛"},{"start":6883.713,"end":6906.386,"text":"監察院廢成這個樣子 廢得理所當然 廢得薪水滿滿而你們也主張要廢 而現在我們 剛剛黃國昌委員也講了我舉個例子 審計部的預算羅志強一毛都不動 產權申報預算羅志強一毛都不動你政治獻金你該做的事情 該做的事情都做了 但是我們今天最不滿意的是什麼 就是你陳菊"},{"start":6909.98,"end":6939.134,"text":"你嘴巴喊今天監察院你也實際把監察院弄得殘廢不只殘廢還變成通場結果你薪水領得開開心心的這才是今天我們關鍵的重點如果這一場憲政的災難民進黨真的有誠意要去來去不是說一套做一套的話中央嘉賓這邊馬上就有你表達你做人一致性的機會啊羅志強做到了啊中央嘉賓要不要做到簽一簽你就做到了啊"},{"start":6945.731,"end":6971.98,"text":"政治上講誠信商業上講信用商業上有種叫做本票但是呢更常被人家拿來考較的叫支票詐騙集團開的空的支票我們不會接受但是是不是詐騙集團必須有過去的誠信跟商業信用來做考較現在在場的委員我只想聽我們林思明委員的高見因為"},{"start":6973.667,"end":6998.362,"text":"現在如果沒有參加過過去修憲委員會的委員這邊講的天花亂墜說你未來會如何如何我都不能相信我不敢說你是詐騙集團但是你沒有過去的信用可供我來考評可以來參與可以來衡量底下我說明一下第10屆的修憲委員一共有39位那麼國民黨呢吳怡婷委員"},{"start":6999.451,"end":7028.267,"text":"未在任李桂民委員未在任林奕華委員未在任林維周委員未在任曾民宗委員未在任費鴻泰委員未在任廖環如委員未在任鄭麗文委員未在任好那麼目前在任的呢我念一下有謝依鳳委員有鄭天才委員有楊瓊英委員剛還有一個曾民宗委員未在任陳玉珍委員"},{"start":7031.718,"end":7053.954,"text":"還有一個現在在場的林思明委員 很好 證人到了第10屆的修憲委員會 這39位委員目前在場的就是林委員跟本席那麼至於時代力量呢 很遺憾的邱顯哲委員現在不在任台灣民眾黨有兩位 一個是張其路委員 一個是賴香林委員 也不在任"},{"start":7054.969,"end":7073.779,"text":"所以我們話再怎麼講總是難逃歷史的簡證過去在擔任立委期間有沒有主張過要廢考監這個會有記錄過去在擔任學者的時候擔任民意代表的時候有沒有主張廢考監這可以拿來核實"},{"start":7075.489,"end":7077.791,"text":"時代力量在201616我有看到的紀錄他們主張的有兩個這是2016不是20202016是第9屆第9屆沒有辦法來成立修憲委員會因為國民黨抵制"},{"start":7090.953,"end":7107.225,"text":"那時候呢時代力量提出了費省的主張提出了費一國兩區的主張我想這些都是我們在翻查過去的歷史記錄可以查得到的那至於有很誠心誠意的在推動的沒錯"},{"start":7108.642,"end":7136.904,"text":"作為相對的少數黨小黨那麼我們都知道在各民主國家要求將病例改為聯力是小黨一致的訴求那很多人可能不知道什麼是病例什麼是聯力在這裡我也不想多做介紹因為這個呢知道的人就知道不知道的人自己去查就知道那麼至於時代力量所提出來的病例改聯力跟當時的時代力量是一致的那麼時代力量在2020之後還提出過國家正常化"},{"start":7137.881,"end":7154.729,"text":"我不曉得當年2020是否還在時代力量的黨員目前有從政的他們是不是願意回首當時他們主張在台灣的憲政體制上要回復一個國家正常化那至於18歲公民權廢考間降修憲門檻降公投門檻這個都是包括時代力量包括當時的民眾黨包括當時的民進黨我們都是支持的"},{"start":7165.236,"end":7184.506,"text":"那麼為什麼會變成只有18歲公民權路線這個地方出現能夠送出修憲委員會呢就是因為在場的臨時民委員或許可以跟我們見證一下當時民進黨主張的廢考間國民黨的態度是什麼國民黨的黨主席的發言是什麼我不是不尊重在場的委員你們的信用因為我沒有辦法考較"},{"start":7185.612,"end":7209.073,"text":"但是作為一個政黨中國國民黨百年的政黨他的黨主義的發言我想有信用可考那目前中國國民黨如果黨主席願意公開的承諾中國國民黨未來在台灣會推動將中華民國的憲政體制改成三元分立制那我覺得這張支票我感受我也相信台灣社會感受"},{"start":7210.134,"end":7232.368,"text":"那如果不是有政黨政治信用可供考察的那麼我相信包括韓院長的支票包括國民黨黨鞭副總章的支票我們都不敢收因為這些人說話沒有誠信可言在過去從上會議到現在新就任立法院院長的韓國瑜先生"},{"start":7233.828,"end":7260.604,"text":"首次擔任國民黨黨編的副總召副委員他們在這裡在草野協商所做的都沒有任何誠信可言甚至可以推翻甚至完完全全的顛覆一般人民對於民主國家國會議政的想像居然可以關起門來一黨修法還可以在現在目前此刻樓下202會議室還在有一個捏造的會議記錄"},{"start":7264.751,"end":7274.636,"text":"9點開會9點03分散會開會時間3分鐘的議事物躺在樓下內政委員會的桌上記錄著本週一前天的會議記錄什麼好了好了主席你什麼話台下的講話我在發言權我還在講欸沒關係來我們繼續講所以"},{"start":7287.358,"end":7315.023,"text":"所以一黨關門修法這樣的行為做得出來的政黨不要說政黨我到目前為止沒有看到中國國民黨的朱立倫主席對此發表任何言論所以我們不能推論說他支持這樣的行為但是至少立法院的韓國院長他沒有來處理這個爭議胡坤祺總召共和國民黨的黨鞭也是在後面指揮這樣一黨修法的"},{"start":7316.104,"end":7341.866,"text":"如果說可以一黨修法 那麼很好 那麼很好 如果一黨可以修法 那當然一黨就可以修憲 那麼我們要請羅委員 恭請你們的黨編 見請你們的黨主席 你們既然可以一黨修法關起門來 不讓其他的政黨參與 那你們當然就可以一黨修憲 就跟習近平所為一樣 我相信大家都會在看 如果你做不到一黨修憲"},{"start":7343.188,"end":7361.363,"text":"你就不要一黨關門修法如果你認為一黨修法是不應該的關門修法是不應該的那請按照目前立法院的憲政體制我們的法律體制請韓院長召集朝野協商來推動成立修憲委員會39位修憲委員及各黨團推派代表我們選舉五席召委我們來認真的好好的延續第10屆的修憲主張我們來跟社會討論"},{"start":7373.188,"end":7391.493,"text":"再次強調商業上我們講究信用沒有信用的支票我也不敢說你是詐騙集團我不敢收但是過去有任何具體的時機可以讓我們相信你的我相信中國國民黨的黨主席應該還有這樣的社會信用我們期待"},{"start":7392.313,"end":7419.464,"text":"期待在立法院可以看到中國國民黨的朱立倫主席要求他們的從政黨員一起跟台灣社會共同來推動修憲那至於修憲的題目我們可以來逐一討論也沒有限定在廢考間而已廢考間只是其中一項主張我們還有很多主張希望能夠來逐一的路線謝謝那個這樣喔因為第一案就討論了一個半小時那是不是我們不要再討論憲法因為我們現在不是"},{"start":7426.747,"end":7428.649,"text":"我們今天審查的是預算"},{"start":7455.377,"end":7466.363,"text":"中召委我是民進黨我真的只服你啦這是非常厲害真的非常厲害的一個人那我就再提醒一次就是說我們今天是審預算不是在討論憲法"},{"start":7469.906,"end":7469.926,"text":"黃國健議員"},{"start":7497.912,"end":7509.831,"text":"其實我剛剛就說得很清楚了嘛就不要只出一張嘴嘛要有具體的行動嘛那有沒有具體的行動我相信願不願有具體的行動我相信大家看得很清楚"},{"start":7510.831,"end":7528.654,"text":"第二,中央政府委員的發言我承認的確是有一點發散我們現在在司法法制委員會處理有關於監察院的預算然後可以扯到其他委員會裡面發生的狀況我聽了我也是覺得蠻傻眼的"},{"start":7529.655,"end":7552.743,"text":"但是他剛剛提到一個很重要的事情因為最後國民黨的主席朱立倫有信用沒有信用我沒有辦法幫朱主席回答但我們就循著鍾嘉斌委員剛剛所提出來的我們來加以檢證嘛到底是哪一個政黨一天到晚開芭樂票開了以後跳票"},{"start":7553.976,"end":7569.362,"text":"然後永遠開始在那邊轉嘛 中央編委員現在坐在我對面說我講話開始發散 沒有 我完全在回應他講的話 我們現在在這個會期要修的財政收支劃分法 那不就是民進黨的主張嗎"},{"start":7571.567,"end":7598.157,"text":"那不就是民進黨賴清德的主張嗎民主進步黨黨主席賴清德從當台南市市長到行政院院長全部都要說財政收支劃分法一定要修啊不修不行啊奇怪了那怎麼民進黨到現在賴清德自己擔總統以後財劃法絕對不能修啊修了會讓台灣陷入空前的國家危機啊"},{"start":7599.404,"end":7620.931,"text":"法夾彎轉成這個樣子喔法夾彎轉成這個樣子喔還不是只有財政收支劃分法勒集會遊行法民進黨在野的時候不是說是惡法嗎蔡英文不是承諾要廢除集會遊行惡法改立集會遊行保障法嗎民進黨從2016年到2024年國會過半8年勒"},{"start":7627.099,"end":7655.832,"text":"及而二法要廢止的政治承諾做了嗎這個是黨主席蔡英文當初跟台灣社會所做的承諾反媒體壟斷專法也是蔡英文做的承諾啊兩岸協議監督條例也是蔡英文做的承諾啊所以真的要講說開拔蠟票我管你是支票還是本票"},{"start":7656.977,"end":7670.546,"text":"有跳票的事實啊跳票的事實啊歷史會檢證啊說的完全沒錯啊歷史檢證就一一檢證民進黨就跳票嘛一天到晚開拔蠟票剛剛我說的哪一個法案不是事實那我們就以這個會期這個禮拜五我們馬上就要處理的財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7684.582,"end":7692.729,"text":"這是過去賴清德的主張阿他當行政院院長的時候的主張阿修了嗎?修了財政收支劃分法了嗎?目前民進黨目前行政部門財政收支劃分法的版本在哪裡?拉回來來處理阿沒有阿你有沒有真的我都發言你要在那邊講一黨修法我印象都很深刻阿"},{"start":7713.632,"end":7734.691,"text":"在這個立法院裡面主導一檔修法的還少過嗎?國務金要費怎麼除罪化的?會計法那個可恥的修法是怎麼過的?污人民的錢還可以除罪化?這不就是當初民進黨過半的時候花了多少時間做了多少討論"},{"start":7740.185,"end":7749.768,"text":"那時候花了多少時間?做了多少討論?把國務金要費除作話?這是哪一黨幹的?在立法院公報裡面沒有嗎?"},{"start":7761.852,"end":7772.662,"text":"林委員我先回應嘉賓想對這個要不要費考監我也要很誠懇的告訴你我們在第10屆確實成立修憲委員會當時誰來主導"},{"start":7778.203,"end":7799.02,"text":"民進黨主導的我記得沒有錯的時候那個秘書長今天也在這裡哦那我們在委員會也曾經來這個學問過秘書長秘書長也回答說他過去的立場他過去擔任立法委員的時候他也主張要廢除我們的監察院但是現在現在秘書長擔任的我們的秘書長"},{"start":7800.74,"end":7819.947,"text":"所以在第10屆不管是朝野大家成立修院委員會把費考監列入我們的一個議題但是為什麼沒有通過嘉賓你不要忘了當時是誰是在國會的最多數黨是民進黨啊"},{"start":7823.348,"end":7851.688,"text":"所以你不要去講說把這個責任推到我們國民黨的身上其實當時就是由民進黨雖然表面上看是說要廢考監但實際上在打假球你們並不是真心誠意的要廢除我們考試院監察院因為過去你們在野的時候不斷的去提出說要考監要廢除但是一旦你們執政了"},{"start":7853.59,"end":7869.278,"text":"可能嘗到甜頭了啦認為這個考試院監察院可以安插很多你們籌擁的人士可以護航很多你們的執政黨很多的弊案所以你們現在呢把這個責任要推給我們在野黨"},{"start":7870.526,"end":7887.816,"text":"我想這是如果去翻開過去的歷史我們可以看得非常清楚所以我們不要再雙標了今天要不要廢除考監我想如果今天你們是執政黨如果執政黨堅持要廢除考監我想在野黨呢"},{"start":7888.516,"end":7906.994,"text":"我們絕對會做出很省慎的研究甚至我們也贊成廢除考監我想這是我們未來一直在研擬的一個方向所以就看現在的執政黨你們的態度是什麼你不要把這個責任推給"},{"start":7907.975,"end":7925.616,"text":"在野黨阿所以我覺得說你剛才講說第10屆我有在場我有見證對確實我見證了但是我見證的是民主進步黨根本在打假球你們不是真的要廢除考監阿那我想我們這個還是要呼籲民進黨阿"},{"start":7926.894,"end":7950.965,"text":"我們還是讓我們的議事啊依照我們的民主的程序啊依照我們的議事規則的來進行啊你一再的牽托說我們怎麼一黨關門去開會你要回顧過去你們的所作所為嗎過去民進黨做出多少的去拔麥克風去佔領主席台去關門不讓我們的會議人員進到議場來開會來議事這都是民進黨所做的"},{"start":7957.728,"end":7982.843,"text":"所以今天我們完全是依照意識規則在進行開會完全合乎意識規則至於說這個有沒有民進黨委員的參與我想這是一個意識攻防跟這個意識有效沒效完全是兩回事所以我們一再的對意識攻防去醜化這都是學你們過去的你不要五十步笑百步了過去你們就是這樣做"},{"start":7984.324,"end":8009.9,"text":"那我想我們對於民主的進程我們大家要守護如果一直的去霸佔主席台不讓議事來進行我想這不是一個健康的國會不是一個我們民主國會應該有的一個狀況所以我們要這邊嚴正呼籲民進黨民主不是民進黨說了算民進黨你們如果堅持你的民主價值就讓我們國會"},{"start":8011.561,"end":8011.681,"text":"好,那個羅委員﹖"},{"start":8043.452,"end":8066.262,"text":"我還是一柄對我們鍾嘉賓的尊敬鍾嘉賓有講到一個做人的原則他說做人說到要做到做人要誠信不要雙標嘉賓兄我是很認同你這句話啦但你不要直接打臉李俊逸這樣不好吧也是好歹你前同事啊"},{"start":8067.142,"end":8073.404,"text":"李俊逸完全示範你的雙標阿示範你的沒有誠信阿示範你的沒有下限阿你講的阿對不對李俊逸跟陳菊就是一輩子堅定主張廢除監察院然後現在中央院院領監察院薪水領得好開心的超級無敵的好示範阿就是你今天我們鍾嘉秉講的誠信阿說到做到不要雙標阿全部都中阿鍾嘉秉"},{"start":8096.869,"end":8097.77,"text":"所以當鍾嘉賓標舉誠信兩個字講誠信阿民進黨阿公投綁大選誰最早提出來的阿"},{"start":8119.688,"end":8133.2,"text":"現在公投綁架選是國家是災難阿財化法賴清德說不修是國家的災難現在修又是國家的災難阿連國會改革官員不可以說謊都是你科建民林佳龍的提案阿結果呢現在呢官員說謊叫做天賦人權天經地義"},{"start":8141.227,"end":8154.312,"text":"今天我也不知道民進黨到底有什麼底氣在那邊跟我講不要雙標講誠信我說實在話我佩服宗家兵吼滔滔江水綿綿不絕為什麼也不過叫你就學學羅志強嘛羅志強就簽了啊我就簽了啊然後呢你就可以盤古開天扯半天不敢簽一句話就結束了我說話你不想簽民眾黨提案我可以理解啦"},{"start":8171.26,"end":8185.433,"text":"你今天好好叫民進黨把修憲委員會你們的提案端端給大家看嘛此一時彼一時我說過啦今天我保證羅志強絕對支持你民進黨的提案你只要提你們陳提費的提案出來"},{"start":8186.354,"end":8204.869,"text":"我投票支持我也幫你拉票你要做記者休息的門檻高我們一起努力嘛我跟隨你宗嘉賓不行嗎國民黨的立場蘇主席的立場可以溝通啊可以再討論啊剛才立法院委員講了啊我們也持開放態度啊如果你們真正提案我們覺得欸真的非常有道理"},{"start":8205.589,"end":8222.177,"text":"照你們民進黨時空環境之數阿今天時空環境已經進展到民進黨所認為說是時候成熟的叫監察院滾蛋的時候我相信國民黨立委我們可以好好的一起來跟著民進黨一起來努力阿"},{"start":8223.578,"end":8235.087,"text":"可是你不要說一套做一套嘛然後把修憲案就藏起來了你拿出來啊我已經跟你講拿出來我就投同意票啊然後我也會努力的幫你們宣揚啊加上民眾黨的8票民進黨"},{"start":8239.471,"end":8254.117,"text":"我告訴你這一次避其功於義馬上就進了不要再逼著李俊逸雙標我知道心裡領那個薪水領得很痛苦他想說我對不起以前的李俊逸我一直想領那個高薪我領得很痛苦我看他臉上表情都很猙獰成局讓他們更痛苦"},{"start":8258.103,"end":8258.123,"text":"總委員．"},{"start":8277.69,"end":8297.665,"text":"我很佩服羅委員擅長演繹別人的內心戲其實來立法院實在可惜了那麼別人怎麼想 別人心裡怎麼感受我想羅委員當然有他自己發揮的餘地但是從事實來說剛剛林世民委員的意見發言我比較重視因為畢竟我們曾經在第10屆"},{"start":8299.406,"end":8315.568,"text":"共同在修憲委員裡面擔任如果您不健忘的話我要告訴回憶一下2020年9月14號經過草野協商才能夠成立修憲委員會別忘了草野協商目前第11屆立法院的草野協商"},{"start":8316.269,"end":8342.56,"text":"能不能來成立修憲委員會我們樂觀其成我們希望韓院長能夠在各位國民黨跟民眾黨委員的呼籲之下趕快的來透過草野協商成立修憲委員會當年由院長透過草野協商各黨派同意之後成立了修憲委員會有39位委員民進黨22位國民黨14位但是很可惜的目前只有其中的6位目前是進入了11屆"},{"start":8343.88,"end":8369.152,"text":"民眾黨的兩位時代立場一位現在不負在任好了那麼剛林委員林思敏委員他可能忘了他當修憲委員的時候你們的召委是李桂民李召委當時我們要推動的這些包括費考卷的提案很抱歉必須經過全院委員四分之三出席四分之三同意後才能在院會做成決議"},{"start":8371.074,"end":8397.061,"text":"當然立法院最後透過這麼高門檻不是國民黨單獨不是民進黨單獨可以來推動的事實上修憲委員會在送到院會的決議也是經過草野協商確認國民黨願意加入促成了可以達到三分之三非常高的門檻才能夠通過後送交全民公民來做投票覆決"},{"start":8398.14,"end":8427.495,"text":"所以不要忘了不是民進黨支持民進黨推動就可以一黨的單獨來推動任何的修憲提案在修憲委員會當中有國民黨委員的參與有時代力量跟民眾黨委員的參與但是也必須經過朝野協商最後只有18歲公民選入憲一案經過朝野協商得到其他政黨的認可才能夠進入到院會進行三分之四三分之三高門檻的表決才能成案"},{"start":8428.376,"end":8442.806,"text":"所以如果林士明委員過去在第10屆擔任過修憲委員的委員或許您不是召委或許你沒有參與當時代表國民黨的黨團的草野協商所以你不了解你以為以當時民進黨60席左右的"},{"start":8447.56,"end":8460.483,"text":"其次就可以來推動獨立完成三分之三四分之三高門檻的修憲那你就太高估了或者說高估了您對憲法程序的瞭解了"},{"start":8461.677,"end":8484.846,"text":"至於擅長演繹他人內心系的羅委員我要回應你李靜韻委員他現在的職務恐怕除了預算之外他很難跟你做其他的意見表達這一點我想大家都很清楚在立法院其他機關的委員其他機關的代表在那裡大概只能聽我們委員就我們的議案來做討論他只能被詢問到的備詢李靜韻委員擔任過第8屆第9屆的立法委員"},{"start":8486.627,"end":8504.467,"text":"在第8屆2015年首次透過新的徵修條文的規定來成立在2005年修憲之後第7次修憲之後依照最新的徵修條文的規定成立的修憲委員會立法院依他的職權來行使推動修憲的李委員剛好是當時第8屆的委員"},{"start":8505.808,"end":8532.883,"text":"所以我們在第9屆的時候我有機會跟李俊逸委員共同的來共事我們也很積極的願意來去推動成立修憲委員會但是當時的李俊逸委員．跟民進黨的黨團當時的成員我們沒有辦法在當時的蘇嘉全委員．蘇嘉全院長主持的超遠協商得到當時有三分之一席次左右的國民黨的支持我們無法成立修憲委員會"},{"start":8533.863,"end":8548.094,"text":"而這個修憲委員會直到第10屆的時候勉強在國民黨的認可之下才能夠透過草野順利的推動這段歷史不是信口胡說就可以掩蓋的有沒有參與到修憲委員會有沒有認真的去推動民進黨既有的三權分立的憲法主張我想不是在這裡胡說八道就可以騙人掩人耳目的"},{"start":8556.62,"end":8568.805,"text":"過去所做的事情都經得起歷史的檢證也必須要經得起歷史的檢證我在這裡呢也讓其他委員不要因為你們在這裡因為你們第11屆進來對著過去的修憲委員會說三道四或者說雖然是第10屆擔任過立法委員擔任過修憲委員卻對過去的修憲程序連基本的額數都猛然無知這個讓我們很擔心接續下來這第一次"},{"start":8581.55,"end":8592.049,"text":"11屆的立法院以這樣的黨團．各黨團的組成真的要認真心誠意的來推動重大的修憲議題真的是堪虞啊 非常的令人擔憂啊"},{"start":8594.834,"end":8619.242,"text":"謝謝那我們就先休息五分鐘那之後第一案討論完之後後面我們就盡量不要再去談論憲政上面的問題好不好因為不是因為欸中召委如果你要繼續討論我也可以陪你但是我們就審不完了不是因為我們今天是審預算不是我跟你講如果你那麼愛討論憲法我也可以跟你討論很久但是問題是我們是不是先把預算審完對對對現在休息預算審完齁"},{"start":9206.258,"end":9207.279,"text":"保留送院會協商通案處理"},{"start":9231.667,"end":9235.271,"text":"國倡委員因為第一案剛剛大家的想法差太遠 那是不是第一案我們就予以保留"},{"start":9254.824,"end":9281.853,"text":"同意我們現在審查第二案到第13案就是工作計畫第一幕的一般行政國倉委員你有提案要凍結那是請你說明一下我應該提的是簡略吧不好意思看錯行了是簡略好謝謝"},{"start":9283.837,"end":9302.236,"text":"因為在我們現在在處理第一幕嗎?我們現在在處理第一幕嗎?就是第二案到第13案第一幕一般行政他編列的預算是8億9千零46萬4千元"},{"start":9305.562,"end":9333.617,"text":"我們針對有關於第一幕的部分我一樣延續著台灣民眾黨黨團對於監察院我們所抱持的基本上面的看法因此我們針對有關於監察院在這一幕向下的預算除了我剛剛所說明的前面就有關於財產申報的業務我們沒有去做任何其他的"},{"start":9334.457,"end":9358.625,"text":"的處理那就其他沒有必要的部分我們是檢列預算90376000元以上說明因為前面有講過各個黨團基本的政策立場那我也不希望一樣的話一而再再而三的反覆所以我就先簡要的說明路上那我們再請羅委員"},{"start":9364.053,"end":9364.694,"text":"第4案我要特別強調"},{"start":9379.591,"end":9396.461,"text":"這一次的監察院陳局主導的監察院是有史以來做的最爛的監察院但是也是有史以來預算最高的監察院那事實上監察院的預算不斷的攀升110年監察院預算只有7億8千萬新年編10億9千7百萬漲幅將近40%那創歷史新高"},{"start":9404.306,"end":9425.919,"text":"那你的單位如果說今天績效卓著你監督政府然後去督查弊案然後去整治政風卓有功效那另當別論就算不談憲政高度不談說今天廢不廢監察院你光監察院自我廢物化自我打手化那抱歉"},{"start":9426.619,"end":9450.849,"text":"那很簡單啊今天那你的監察院的預算當然要延審那我也有看到中加兵委員在媒體上有講說這是叫逼公務員領薪水不做事那這樣很簡單所以我就把薪水也刪了但不會刪公務員的就是那些所謂的高官這個司衛素餐的薪水刪一刪當然我知道很多可能大家對這一點是有意見這意見我也尊重"},{"start":9452.91,"end":9462.771,"text":"所以我建議這個案子就保留送協商那看看大家協商有什麼想法再自己去決定那第4案呢第5案是什麼第5案我要講"},{"start":9464.13,"end":9467.931,"text":"陳舉 陳舉到哪裡就鋪張到哪裡當高雄市長高雄負債2000多億當監察院院長監察預算暴增4成2020年8月上任監察院的稅出當時只是7億8400萬110年就變成9億4100萬一路上升到現在變成10億9700萬"},{"start":9489.395,"end":9505.965,"text":"所以這樣的委員來掌等監察權根本是敗壞國家的廉政之風因此在第5案的部分我要特別講的是我們針對第5案就是在一般行政向下基本行政工作維持業務費的物品油料費124萬元我是要簡列"},{"start":9512.108,"end":9518.697,"text":"一百萬元凍結50%等監察院一個月內向立法院司法法制委員會提出專案報告時得凍資"},{"start":9521.204,"end":9545.663,"text":"監察院我剛前面講效能的低落是有史以來之罪但政府首長的車輛數卻力冠五院那預算當然應該減約啦那監察院作為五院憲政五院之一他的政府首長擁有車輛29輛遠超過行政院的15輛立法院的5輛司法院17輛跟考試院的13輛這樣的龐大數量我覺得要嚴加檢討"},{"start":9549.306,"end":9557.411,"text":"所以不只是車輛數高居不下油料費也是高居不下那車輛維護費高達115萬元油料費124.8萬元合計支出達240餘萬元"},{"start":9565.556,"end":9583.685,"text":"監察院既然效能這麼差那基本上我覺得就可以好好從各項地方來幫助監察院來使他們的更加的簡約使資源配置更有效率所以第5案跟第6案是針對所謂的這個車輛維護費跟油料費我的一個提案主張以上還有11案是不是到幾案到13案13案好那第10案也是我的等一下"},{"start":9593.598,"end":9616.516,"text":"第10案就是一樣的邏輯刪除短程車資在一般行政向下基本行政維持工作業務費的短程車資編列10萬元我減他7萬元那編到10萬元基本上效能長期低落也讓大家覺得這個經費的合理性必要性感到非常懷疑那11案是刪除特別費"},{"start":9617.557,"end":9621.28,"text":"同樣的也就是對監察院功能不彰我覺得首長特別費應該優先來檢討所以首長特別費219萬我是主張就是3減219萬全減然後13案是凍結資訊服務費"},{"start":9633.45,"end":9651.04,"text":"那針對這個資訊服務會編列3106萬元那凍結該預算30%監察院一個月內向立法院的司法法制委員會提出專案報告同意後使得凍資這是本人以上的幾個提案 謝謝你說排第二個是什麼意思"},{"start":9665.181,"end":9671.655,"text":"謝謝主席 我想接下來我們要對於剛剛羅遠有提議的我做一個回應"},{"start":9673.376,"end":9693.151,"text":"就是人事費在預算審查可不可以減劣這是一個好的議題那我希望待會呢機關代表李秘書長或者是可以請在場有來列席的包括行政院主席總處的公務預算處的李視察以及監察院人事室的劉主任"},{"start":9693.931,"end":9710.447,"text":"或者是會計室負責預算編列的陳主任來可以幫我們做個釐清首先我就公務機關他在預算審議的時候先理解人事費人事費的構成先有機關的編制緣額但是機關的編制緣額"},{"start":9714.571,"end":9729.368,"text":"未必是它的預算緣額通常有些機關的編制緣額預算緣額是低於編制緣額就是預算並沒有將所有的編制緣額用滿但是接下來還有一個現有緣額"},{"start":9731.124,"end":9750.554,"text":"預算原額除了會低於編制原額之外現有原額有可能還低於預算原額因為有可能在年度當中已經給你的預算原額並不能用滿找不到人像速發部他的機關原額當時給他提供了增加了200名約聘務人員"},{"start":9752.359,"end":9764.017,"text":"預算部分也撥足了200名約聘僱人員的預算原額但他的現有原額招聘不到這麼多人所以接下來我要請監察院的代表大概跟我們具體說明幾個事情"},{"start":9766.567,"end":9789.739,"text":"目前監察院過去這幾年來以我們剛剛預算提案所提到的成長預算成長40%第一個這個數字是怎麼得來的我們不清楚可不可以請機關代表稍微模擬一下第二這個成長的幅度對應監察院的機關緣額的成長有沒有它的一個關聯性能不能告訴我們監察院這幾年來的機關緣額的成長"},{"start":9792.02,"end":9817.191,"text":"第三監察院預算緣額有沒有用足機關緣額這些預算緣額包含了哪些機關緣額第四目前你們的現有緣額哪些緣額那最後最後第五那麼如果立法院的預算審議我們不能既然機關在編列預算的時候他都可以少於編制緣額去編列預算"},{"start":9818.68,"end":9821.562,"text":"我認為啊,審議單位也有可能在預算緣額機關報上來的時候我們去檢列他的預算,致使他的預算緣額實際可運用的部分更少於他的機關緣額"},{"start":9834.147,"end":9856.28,"text":"所以請就這幾個部分來跟大家做一個說明什麼是政府機關的機關緣額以及機關在編列預算的時候它的預算緣額怎麼去議定當然最後在執行決算的時候也可以說明為什麼你有這些預算緣額你到底有沒有用滿那麼這些請機關代表可以予以說明 謝謝"},{"start":9860.299,"end":9884.633,"text":"我的部分我就直接在這邊說好了就不再浪費時間我的部分其實在剛剛休息前的時候我已經大概有提過一下我的想法了大概就是說對監察院其實他在司法個案上面他的處理模式其實他造成檢察官跟法官核心職權的侵害"},{"start":9885.543,"end":9914.02,"text":"那這個其實是違反五權分立的原則啦尤其是不可以就個案的部分加以干涉那其實在自權質詢的時候那當然秘書長有我有詢問過秘書長那秘書長給我的答案是這樣我是能夠接受但是不滿意那為什麼是我可以接受是因為我也了解監察委員是個別行使職權那就秘書長的立場你說要去干預監察委員個別行使職權當然這個秘書長我們持平的來看這確實是"},{"start":9915.561,"end":9930.599,"text":"是不容易的啦但是為什麼不滿意是因為如果照這樣的話那其實我國的監察委員就是皇帝了嘛他想怎樣就怎樣沒有任何一個行政上面的作為能夠勸他不要這樣做或是告訴他相關的"},{"start":9932.281,"end":9945.715,"text":"監察委員的職權範圍是什麼就像大法官他他憲判8號他侵害到其他的權利侵害到司法權侵害到立法權一樣吼那到最後也都沒有任何人能夠跟他談"},{"start":9946.576,"end":9970.834,"text":"那大法官他是學有專精﹖所以我相信他會這麼幹一定是他故意為之但監察委員很多他不一定對於自己監察權的運作的範圍到哪裡他能夠理解所以我還是這樣覺得就是說秘書長說沒有辦法就個案去告訴監委這些東西我想我可以理解但是就這部分我覺得"},{"start":9973.046,"end":9993.293,"text":"還是說不能夠完全說其實跟自己都沒有關係那只能做善意的勸告那這部分我就先再說明那另外就是因為我們認為我這邊認為說監察院最近的那個職權的行使上面呢他不但他不但沒有對這個國家有很大的注意他其實反而是在"},{"start":9994.605,"end":9994.765,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10023.561,"end":10043.782,"text":"就像我講個最簡單的我們先不要去論各地方政府你會說我們談論到各地方政府是否與執政黨相同的那個縣市首長那你可能說這是政治的鬥爭那我們談一個最簡單的就是檢察官或法官的反彈光這個東西就"},{"start":10046.223,"end":10063.257,"text":"跟政治無關嘛 就像我說陳宗祥的案子的時候當時我也還在檢方那你們真的搞不清楚你們也假裝看不到基層的法官檢察官對這幾件事情的反彈有多大你們真的不清楚當時我們的反彈非常的大"},{"start":10064.418,"end":10079.473,"text":"當然我們從來不期待部長或政次他們會為基層法官檢察官講話但是基層法官檢察官不是笨蛋每一個人幾乎在法律上面都有一定的法律程度大家不會搞不清楚監察委員能做什麼不能做什麼"},{"start":10080.134,"end":10103.133,"text":"甚至監察院在自己的網站上面也寫得很清楚我這一次我在第幾案我其實也有提到你們可以回去看其實監察院的網站自己都有提到說如果司法調查的時候其實監察委員是不會優先去調查那個案子那詳細是在網站哪個地方我忘了因為我那時候點進去看再麻煩"},{"start":10104.98,"end":10131.742,"text":"各位回去看一下如果連監察院都這麼講而且監察院的作為會造成基層的法官跟檢察官這麼的不滿的時候那可能監察院自己要檢討那我就說我不管政客在旁邊善笑我但我對於法律的理解我相信不會低於這些政客啦那我對於法律及憲法制度的理解我還是這樣依法論法法律沒有刪除之前二法易法我也是遵守它憲法沒有"},{"start":10133.485,"end":10143.881,"text":"先除修正之前一樣我也是會遵守他所以我還是希望說監察院就這個部分能夠理解因為監察院的作為已經造成了"},{"start":10145.359,"end":10165.925,"text":"獨立審判的司法人員以及獨立偵查的檢查人員都不滿的時候那就不能再告訴我說我監察院做的都是對的因為他們是非常中立以我對於院檢的理解基層的院檢都非常的中立高層我不敢講啦基層絕對是非常的中立"},{"start":10167.685,"end":10184.752,"text":"其他的部分大概就是跟黃委員跟羅委員剛剛講的內容差不多我就不再浪費大家的時間麻煩監察院這邊就按號2號到第13號還有剛剛各位委員 中委員等等的詢問能夠表示意見 謝謝"},{"start":10187.22,"end":10207.199,"text":"好,謝謝主席。針對第2號案號2到案號13幾位委員所提的吹詢我一併做綜合答覆在案號2的部分黃委員刪除除了保留我們公務人員的薪資以外全數刪除這個勢必影響到我們監察院的正常運作"},{"start":10208.019,"end":10221.651,"text":"監察院是一個憲政機關那其實其他憲政機關還是要讓我們可以正常運作下去那黃委員的提案我們尊重但是我們希望這個委員會可以再討論這個部分確實會有影響而且這個有4至632的問題"},{"start":10227.336,"end":10231.179,"text":"有關吳委員剛才提的 其實吳委員在詢答的時候已經提過了 這個我也說明很清楚 這個查的是防逃機制 那確實在這件事情上 南檢跟南院不是完全沒有問題"},{"start":10243.328,"end":10262.48,"text":"只是我們的委員確實時機不宜那這個我們已經有透過其他的委員告知這位的提案委員這個部分有做一個說明那有關羅委員所提的這個刪除政務人員的人事費用監察院總共有30位政務委員包括29位的監察委員"},{"start":10266.142,"end":10282.427,"text":"這是依照憲法徵修條文第7條所明列的那還有一位秘書長就是我本人他是依組織法第9條所明列的那這樣這個法規上明列的徵務人員適不適宜不要領薪水這個我們請委員會再討論那另外有關第5案跟第6案有關這個油料跟我們汽車維修我先跟羅委員報告"},{"start":10295.331,"end":10308.156,"text":"這個油料跟汽車維修監察院現在總共有38部車子其中有16部已經超過13年了那根據規定15年就要報廢所以因為車子老舊所以會有維修的情形比較高那事實上我們維護費其實可以編到179萬我們編了115萬這個必須先說明第二個為什麼會有這麼多政府首長的坐車"},{"start":10324.182,"end":10330.589,"text":"正部首長的坐車依規定是所謂2000cc以上那監察院在第二屆從陳立安院長就規定所有29位委員的配車應該是一致的所以當時到第四屆這個車子都是第四屆買的不是第六屆編的"},{"start":10340.66,"end":10348.184,"text":"那當時就是都用2000的坐車所以現在已經沒有所謂的政府首長坐車除了四位的政府首長以外那其他都是一般公務車現在我們委員也沒有配車現在委員需要用到公務車必須填寫派車單所以這個部分我們也麻煩委員會在斟酌我們確實有困難那去年我們維護費用就不太夠了所以這個部分還反請這個"},{"start":10370.775,"end":10374.438,"text":"思考再來就是第13案的部分"},{"start":10380.609,"end":10405.458,"text":"這個資訊管理費用跟委員報告就是事實上這個資訊管理費用編的已經比去年就比今年113年還少那我們呈現了一個現象就是資本門降低經常門增加經常門增加的原因最主要是我們有39個系統要維護39個系統要維護那其中跟財政有關的就有15個系統因為我們有很多的介接"},{"start":10406.538,"end":10429.663,"text":"現在所有申報財產的人都可以利用借接那借接的使用率也達到93以上那這個部分是主要是這個系統各種系統的維護另外現在還還有一個系統就是說在申報政治現金的時候過去常常碰到說這個有沒有跟政府有契約關係或者是他本身是負債"},{"start":10431.744,"end":10450.74,"text":"不能捐款這是憲法所規定的現在我們也有這個平台所以維護這些平台我們確實需要比較多的費用所以今年會增加最後一個問題回答剛剛羅委員提的為什麼比110年增加那麼多110年的時候我們那時候還沒有編列國家人權委員會我們現在有40幾位我們員工另外國家人權委員會"},{"start":10458.926,"end":10482.308,"text":"在2020年8月正式成立以後我們有很多國家人權的工作要推動所以這個預算有所增加那其他麻煩各位委員再討論再參考以上報告謝謝好謝謝那我們這12案有關那個國外旅費的部分剛剛我們已經提到說國外旅費就是保留那就國外旅費以外的部分那是不是"},{"start":10484.035,"end":10490.1,"text":"先記官這邊有沒有提出一個想法那我們看看這個提案的委員有沒有辦法接受"},{"start":10492.554,"end":10512.954,"text":"因為以第二案來講一般行政的部分黃委員除了保留薪資以外這個就全部刪除那我們就沒有辦法運作了所以這個我也沒辦法講說要刪多少好那其他案呢你有沒有就是說趕快提一下那我們提案委員都在這裡他可以決定說同不同意你們的想法"},{"start":10513.815,"end":10537.158,"text":"如果針對一般行政的話是不是可以這樣就是說我們希望說一般行政是整個最大項目說的都在一般行政如果你把我全刪掉的話我監察院根本沒辦法運作那監察院沒辦法運作就違反大法官事件第632號的解釋所以我們希望還是可以讓我們順利的運作所以這個部分我們尊重委員的討論"},{"start":10540.602,"end":10564.222,"text":"提案委員黃委員跟羅委員就這個部分你們接受嗎其實我覺得前面的理由大家都已經說明的很清楚了嘛那監察院剛剛主席也給代表的秘書長機會那請他們看他們自己覺得適合的額度是多少那不過剛剛秘書長的說明似乎是說就請我們來討論嘛"},{"start":10566.468,"end":10589.725,"text":"但是我覺得基本上面的在這件事情上面彼此的偵測立場可能差異太大了因為我們一幕一幕來加以處理在這種基本的偵測立場差異這麼大的情況之下我是不是建議就保留因為我們委員會大概的習慣就是大家有不一樣的看法就保留也不要說"},{"start":10590.766,"end":10608.048,"text":"在這邊直接透過表決的方式來處理其實我覺得也不好啦我是做這樣子的建議因為我相信剛剛在第一輪實際上面發言的工坊大家都已經把基本的想法負責任的"},{"start":10609.229,"end":10625.18,"text":"做了一個清楚的說明,立法院的公報都有記載那整個議事轉播的系統關心的公民其實都可以看得到那所以我是不是建議主席因為第一個我們在這邊顯然沒有辦法有共識那第二個"},{"start":10626.814,"end":10652.893,"text":"在目前的狀況下面我相信可能不管是監察院也好或者是我們執政黨的委員其實也不希望也不樂見在這邊就直接用表決的方式來處理我們是不是就維持委員會這邊的傳統大家有政策立場不一樣的地方各自說明完了以後那就保留到協商再來處理這個是我以上的建議"},{"start":10655.76,"end":10683.883,"text":"總委你要表示一點我想這幾個案子還是有一個根本的邏輯問題但是我剛剛有跟機關代表表達或許他們一時之間沒有辦法在口頭上提供我剛剛的那些五個詢問那是不是後續可以透過資料的呈送來讓我們知道這幾年監察院他的機關預算的成長"},{"start":10688.596,"end":10709.436,"text":"與人員編制數的變遷有所關聯除了人員編制數有變遷（會導致預算緣額的差別之外（實際執行上是否有其他明顯的關聯當然我們也知道任何公司（"},{"start":10711.226,"end":10738.375,"text":"就算是純粹服務業他是以人為服務主體的公司除了人事費之外他的業務費也是支撐這些領用薪水的編制人員去從事業務的重要基礎我還是要重申如果認為目前我們預算審查不能就機關的預算緣額予以三減那麼你將"},{"start":10740.499,"end":10768.87,"text":"這些預算原額的人員他領用薪水之後他必須執行的業務的業務會全刪那就剛好坐實了領乾薪不辦事如果天底下真的有這麼好的工作立法院可以同意有個機關說有這個限制你的機關的預算原額你報出來的預算因為我不能刪減"},{"start":10770.543,"end":10784.892,"text":"然後所以我就就所有這些預算原額當中的人員他從事執行業務所必須的業務費用我進行刪除全數的刪除而不是經過實際審查之後做必要的檢列"},{"start":10788.314,"end":10805.371,"text":"那麼這樣子就無一的讓這個機關人員有預算編制有編制的有預算原額的人員坐領甘心那至於哪些業務我們在討論當中其實我還要重申在我們過去立法院的預算機關預算審議當中像是水電費車輛"},{"start":10809.495,"end":10830.093,"text":"防色維修其實經常的會基於對於行政機關當然監察院也被捅包在這當中去進行一些通案的討論那這些通案的討論當然都會在送院會前的草野協商去進行那本席也是認同我們委員會"},{"start":10831.474,"end":10843.814,"text":"一致以來透過共識決如果無法達成共識決我們保留送院會協商尤其是關於國外旅費包括防色維修包括水電費包括車輛的"},{"start":10846.636,"end":10869.577,"text":"預算編列過去10年來行政機關在跟立法機關進行預算的討論的時候這通常都會進行一個通案的考量那我想基於監察院目前他所依據執行職權的相關法律不管是憲法徵休條文還是相關的法令都還沒有辦法進行修改"},{"start":10870.157,"end":10891.898,"text":"那這種情況之下我們到底在預算審議上有哪些空間因為由委員提出來我也是希望機關代表能夠在事後在我們朝野協商之前能夠有這些相關的書面資料如果現在一直拿不出來沒辦法統計或者說要先口頭補充說明我也可以接受我們總是要知道"},{"start":10892.678,"end":10900.661,"text":"編制原額預算原額現有原額跟我們目前所審議的機關預算審議的關聯性以上好謝謝那那個羅委員其實我還是一樣雙方說不要讓這個監察院領乾心變成不做事事實上監察院現在就是領乾心不做事然後呢"},{"start":10922.95,"end":10951.503,"text":"不只是領甘心不做事領甘心還當東廠那說真的那立法院還怕立法院刪他的業務費跟出國費嗎同樣的道理啊今天不跟你講什麼憲政體制上監察院的存廢我們就講現在就講現狀你監察院到底交出什麼讓大家買業的成績監察院的核心任務就是監督政府監察院的核心任務就是監督政府"},{"start":10952.284,"end":10978.995,"text":"在監督執政者上面陳局領導的這個監察院請問過去這些年到底做了什麼事情我只看到高永成我只看到你們在當東廠我看到你們今天遇到大官就躲然後遇到小弟就打然後甚至專打在野黨啊專打這個跟民進黨可能有監督的其他的力量跟權力啊這種情況之下"},{"start":10980.034,"end":10987.836,"text":"耳奉耳辱民脂民膏說真的山你們也是為你們好免得你們造孽太多啦"},{"start":10988.952,"end":11013.726,"text":"讓我們今天百姓辛辛苦苦斬鋸下來交給政府的納稅錢我們今天幫他節省一點點所以監察院不要說什麼今天刪了業務費出國費就變成領乾心不做事你早就不做事還一直當東廠刪也是剛好所以我的建議還是跟國昌兄一樣啦既然沒有共識就保留吧謝謝"},{"start":11017.808,"end":11041.18,"text":"我們第二案到第13案基本上是8跟9是本來我們在第一案的時候就已經說好要保留了在檢列的部分除了第二案跟第四案之外其實是減400萬那一樣是保留還是說這400萬的部分可以討論出一個結果"},{"start":11050.81,"end":11070.922,"text":"本幕預算提案第2案到第13案就均保留我們後續可能就是要加快一點速度不然會審不完或是大家有同意我們也可以今天整到時間到我們也可以之後再擇期但是可以的話我們盡量就讓這個"},{"start":11074.38,"end":11076.322,"text":"提案委員黃偉元說明"},{"start":11093.924,"end":11107.975,"text":"再度重申台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們認為就目前在監察院他在整個功能上面飽受社會強烈質疑的情況之下我們針對"},{"start":11109.256,"end":11129.131,"text":"有關於監察院就財產申報的部分就古蹟維護的部分的經費我們願意支持其他的部分我們都主張刪除因此在第二幕有關於議事行政的部分台灣民眾黨黨團的提案內容是全數刪除"},{"start":11136.223,"end":11146.294,"text":"那羅委員第17案是您提的其實大概理由都差不多了所以就是針對這個14125國際監察事務活動經費編列1187萬5000元全部剪裂全部刪除以上"},{"start":11162.711,"end":11190.053,"text":"就會議時間部分我們今天是一整天我剛剛口誤但是我們下午還有一個國安基金的審查會議所以我們還是一樣就是說今天是不是對是不是說我們延長到處理完畢對還是要另定期看大家的想法就"},{"start":11191.397,"end":11207.818,"text":"對,我們後面加快一點,我們還是今天把它審完好不好?黃委員我同意今天把它處理完,因為其實剛剛主席在場的所有的官員,大家其實都清楚的看得出來,三個黨團"},{"start":11209.281,"end":11232.221,"text":"在有關於監察院預算上面各有各自的政治主張跟政策上面的立場那我們今天在這邊很難有什麼實際上面的共識那我們也不願意透過表決的方式來處理這個事情那大概就這個案子就走下去嘛如果能夠出現難得的共識"},{"start":11233.422,"end":11247.327,"text":"我覺得很好沒有辦法也不用強求那就到協商的時候再一併處理因為這個已經不是說好像針對細項的部分大家在爭執所謂細項的部分大家在爭執就是說"},{"start":11251.048,"end":11271.199,"text":"你這個錢邊這樣是不是太高是不是太腐爛有料費是不是太高是不是要再降低一點因為我覺得在監察院的預算上面所產生的增值並不是在這個層次上而是有根本立場上面的差異所以我是不是就建議說我們還是就順著"},{"start":11272.259,"end":11284.034,"text":"今天召委都已經排案了那我們就順著把它走下去沒有辦法有共識就沒有辦法有共識那我們也都尊重不要用強行表決的方式來處理這個問題"},{"start":11287.328,"end":11308.684,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在就做這個會議宣告呃呃程序宣告那上午的會議進行至本日議程所列事項處理完畢為止吼那後續再麻煩大家能夠加快一些審查的節奏吼那因為我這邊我也是覺得可以的話就不要用表決方式處理啦那我們就盡量大家能夠好好溝通好"},{"start":11313.871,"end":11322.331,"text":"那請問一下我的部分我就不再補充那請問機關就14案到17案有沒有有沒有回應"},{"start":11323.427,"end":11340.439,"text":"好謝謝主席14案到17案是議事業務的部分那總共編了1856萬最主要是我們明年有成辦一個Apple的會議就是泛太平洋地區的監察室的一個活動那這個是750萬那其他的就是我們參加各種會議國際會議的這個議事業務還有我們本來需要的議事業務所以這個第14案全數刪除這個我們恐怕會有困難"},{"start":11353.148,"end":11354.229,"text":"第14案到第17案"},{"start":11380.816,"end":11406.25,"text":"我們均保留,請問各位委員是否同意?可以齁,中稍微,可以嗎?我們就保留。好,那我們14案到第17案就予以保留。那我們現在審查第18案到第23案就有關第三目,調查巡查業務部分。好,那請提案人,各位委員有沒有要補充?"},{"start":11410.334,"end":11412.599,"text":"第19案是臺灣民眾黨黨團我代表黨團的提案"},{"start":11420.134,"end":11445.605,"text":"那針對第6款第一項第三目調查巡迴業務的這個部分我是非常主張監察院自己把監察院巡迴監察實施要點監察院巡迴監察辦法這一些該刪除的東西自己都廢了這個是監察院自己就可以處理法規的事項之前我們監察院的秘書長"},{"start":11447.247,"end":11464.405,"text":"在當立委的時候他有大力主張這些都是監察院自己就可以處理掉廢除的事項搞這些巡迴大家忙得要死那要求監察院自行把它處理掉嘛"},{"start":11465.049,"end":11486.049,"text":"那監察院如果他不願意自己處理掉那沒關係我們下個會期法案會期的時候再徹底的檢討監察法裡面相關的規定那因此針對有關於第三目調查巡迴業務的部分所列的1571萬4千元台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是全部刪除"},{"start":11491.869,"end":11519.42,"text":"好 那個 這樣我了解齁 那中召委的提案第23案 因為這是國外旅費的部分 那我們剛在第一案的時候已經保留 那中召委就這個23案先說結論齁 因為既然是同樣的國外旅費 那我剛剛的主張就是通案並通案 送院會少也協商 但是呢 我還是希望機關代表能就我們提案的意旨當中所提到的這些現象"},{"start":11520.24,"end":11545.28,"text":"做一個說明我們才能理解他的合理性在哪裡也就是說最後的處理我同意國外旅費就通案並朝野協商保留宋朝野協商但是我希望就本席在提案要旨當中所提到的這個現象他的原因能夠做出一個機關說明的回應好那機關是否要說明補充說明一下"},{"start":11546.394,"end":11563.292,"text":"好從18案到23案這是有關我們監察巡迴業務那這個部分跟黃委員報告我們現在監察院巡迴監察實施要點已經不適用了這個已經取消我們只剩監察院巡迴監察辦法"},{"start":11566.737,"end":11582.716,"text":"監察本來就是我們重要的職責之一所以現在有繼續在進行當中過去我確實在當立委的時候有建議要減少事實上監察院也做了地方的巡查由三次改為兩次但是我們有討論過是不是還要再減少"},{"start":11585.218,"end":11607.873,"text":"這個部分委員有不同的意見因為最主要的原因是因為到地方上民眾都積極要陳情所以現在剪下來恐怕還有困難那其他的部分就是剛剛鍾佳斌委員所提到的這件之前提到的這個部分就是有關人數的部分我們會後會給鍾委員這個人數那另外就是針對這個23案是"},{"start":11615.278,"end":11642.534,"text":"國外考察履備部分就是原來就主席已經處理過了我們就尊重這個主席的才事以上報告好謝謝那這樣的話是不是我們第三目第三目的調查巡查業務預算案號第18案到第23案均勻保留好想說大家沒有共識嗎這均勻保留是有各位委員是有同意"},{"start":11644.845,"end":11665.24,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們審查第24案第4目財產申報業務這部分是我所提出來的我是認為說因為這段時間的財產業務申報的這個業務是有增加但是增加的緣額這個"},{"start":11669.619,"end":11692.614,"text":"平均的那個差額動輒就達到預算原額的7到8%所以這個部分我認為說在酬金啦在旅費啦等等這都增加不少那是不是要請這個監察院能夠再與審酌那這部分呢我個人是提案是就"},{"start":11694.912,"end":11696.916,"text":"的預算數是82萬那如果"},{"start":11704.112,"end":11723.066,"text":"監察院可以在3個月內向我們提出專案報告 經過我們同意就可以動之 有關第二次事案的部分 機關這邊有沒有辦法同意我是不是說明一下 主席提案 老實講現在財產申報業務 我們負擔非常非常沉重"},{"start":11726.708,"end":11740.533,"text":"那有兩個困難點第一個就是財產申報業務這是陽光事法裡面包括政治獻金包括財產申報包括利益衝突迴避這是陽光事法所規定的所以我們在組織員的編制上並沒有辦法"},{"start":11742.565,"end":11756.898,"text":"所以我們是用行政院專案給我們約聘人員我們用這樣來補充但是特別是111年因為現在把縣市議員也要財產申報所以我們整個工作量是增加非常非常大"},{"start":11757.839,"end":11760.081,"text":"工作量增加非常非常大我們是不是請這個主席這個部分可以考慮不要再踩尖我們的那個我們的預算因為財產申報這個卸債確實非常困難那包括立聰我們去年跟我們今年跟這個行政院"},{"start":11775.217,"end":11800.592,"text":"因為有很多立冲的宣導他們不是很清楚所以有很多被我們罰款那立冲的部分我們在今年包括機關邀請的或是我們自己辦的就超過350場以上所以這個部分請不要再刪減我們的預算以上我們不是就是說跟秘書長說明一下我們這部分主要是凍結而且我這個金額是"},{"start":11802.751,"end":11811.143,"text":"我金額是82對82萬所以金額也不高那是不是你們可以同意而且我這是凍結向你們提交報告而已"},{"start":11812.282,"end":11831.399,"text":"我也知道這個業務是很繁重的是這樣啦 跟主席報告一下因為我們其實最主要是人員用在這個借鑒的相關的部分是不是凍結那我們提書面報告就好啦因為我們專案報告那應該沒問題嘛 那這個我們是不是就通過凍結我們提書面報告這樣好不好 達成一個共識這是我的提案啊"},{"start":11833.92,"end":11837.602,"text":"我原本的提案是說提出專案報告並經同意那你是不是說你提書面"},{"start":11862.205,"end":11885.77,"text":"那在同意上面是不是比較有風險?是不是?那我們如果專案報告我們還有一個溝通的機會因為是這樣啦就是說因為我們剛剛講講得很清楚我們現在人員困難碰在哪裡嘛那這個我們提出來即使專案報告我能講的也是這些話而已啦那是不是這個部分可以讓我們用書面報告那就遵照主席的意思就凍結就凍結吧那個中委"},{"start":11888.935,"end":11897.038,"text":"主席 機關代表李秘書長 這個是在我們的預算書的第41頁 它這裡是屬於財產申報業務 那麼該目的預算總額是795萬8千 那目前我們討論的是公職人員財產申報 這裡的預算編列是682萬2千"},{"start":11910.542,"end":11919.311,"text":"那麼儘管目前這個委員提案的內容是去掉尾數這邊說要檢驗82萬那事實上我剛剛看了一下這個內容其實這裡面都是業務費那只是說委員的提案內容的說明說"},{"start":11930.513,"end":11949.394,"text":"監察院有增加公職人員財產申報的相關預算的情勢一直在增加那麼因為這是根據第6條財產申報第6條新增業務所以這個業務量一直在增加但是增加原額下為足額經用人數占比偏高那這裡一含著好像提案委員認為"},{"start":11950.922,"end":11979.933,"text":"有真的因為新增了第6條暫時冒法的業務後監察院有增加緣額嗎那剛剛秘書長的說明是說他們緣額沒有辦法增加啊他們沒有增加編制緣額是該行政院另外同意給予約聘戶人力那約聘戶人力呢這個就不是屬於機關的編制緣額也不是預算緣額這是要業務費那如果這個業務費不能支用那這些聯員就領不到薪水啊就不能辦理"},{"start":11981.155,"end":12002.216,"text":"公職人員財產商貿的業務所以表面上這個凍結是凍他的尾數事實上講得更白一點就是凍結那些非公務人員編制內的約聘務人員我們一般都稱為專案人力他們的薪資那這樣的薪資我們去凍他有何意義"},{"start":12003.53,"end":12026.391,"text":"那如果說是要順便報告使得動資那本行我覺得可以接受或許提案委員想知道他們這個財產申報這些人員如何辦理業務的但是如果還要專案報告我就不能理解要去聽取這些專案約聘戶人力他們的心知知領這些薪酬去辦理這些財產申報業務的意義在哪裡"},{"start":12030.858,"end":12033.059,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管．收支"},{"start":12049.461,"end":12069.042,"text":"是要專案報告或者是書面我覺得我剛剛思考一下也沒有必要堅持啦但是因為他背後畢竟還是有一個要同意嘛對不對那你今天如果我剛剛我本來的想法很簡單就是說你們來我們有多一個討論的機會那如果說你們我不知道你們的想法啦因為"},{"start":12070.413,"end":12084.786,"text":"我不是說胡亂去凍結你們的這個因為我也知道財產申報在國際透明的標準下對台灣是有一定的幫助所以我也雖然說財產申報的效果沒有那麼好我自己"},{"start":12085.467,"end":12100.118,"text":"我自己財產申報了20幾年我個人一直認為財產申報的這個規定其實是處罰記憶力不好的人不是處罰犯罪犯罪人每個都很清楚都知道把錢藏在一線奇怪沒有我在說我刑事偵辦案件的"},{"start":12101.439,"end":12118.313,"text":"請尊重我也辦了11年的樹攤那很多時候災難申報變成是在處罰記憶力不好的人那當然沒有關係因為這個對於國家透明度來說在這世界上是有它的幫助的所以我不會認為災難申報不需要存在我也很支持只是說我對這個數額的部分"},{"start":12120.373,"end":12142.466,"text":"我才會以凍結的方式為之那如果說你們堅持說一定不要專案報告的話你們一定要做書面對不對就書面嘛那我也OK但是就是說畢竟還是要經過同意後嘛所以我不知道機關你們的想法如果你們要堅持那你可以跟我說答案"},{"start":12143.755,"end":12158.616,"text":"跟主席報告啦,這個書面報告如果沒有交付審查就是書面報告就可以啦那這個部分我剛才說明過因為我們確實碰到困難就是這樣那我們提供比較詳細完整的書面報告給主席好那沒問題齁那這樣我們就"},{"start":12163.622,"end":12191.609,"text":"我們這個我同意就是說其他就不變了第4幕財產申報業務提案號第24案我們凍結82萬的部分我們就針對這個凍結提案的要求依審查會議的決議就是提出書面報告那經同意後才可以凍資有還經同意嗎我們都提交書面報告就使得凍資"},{"start":12192.844,"end":12209.565,"text":"因為提交書面報告還要經同意後 那我們要如何同意委員會是合意的要如何同意沒有啊就是看大家的意見啊那所以我才說嘛我所以本期說如果連這些臨時連員的酬金在處理受理財產申報的酬金你凍結"},{"start":12211.141,"end":12229.073,"text":"我先提個我就不能理解為什麼凍結他們的酬金那如果說你希望看他們怎麼支用那提個書面報告我覺得OK但是提個書面報告之後還要經過同意後才能凍資那這些約聘戶人力他們的薪酬需要我們用這個方式同意後才能領薪水"},{"start":12230.174,"end":12252.722,"text":"三六百我看看六百八十二萬二千的八十二萬的籌金我們要給他凍結要經過同意我還是要跟表達我們不能理解這樣的提案對不起剛好召委就是提案委員我不能理解我們去對這些人員非編制的非正式人員的他們的籌金業務費受理財產申報我們要凍結的目的"},{"start":12257.023,"end":12286.118,"text":"順便報告我接受就是瞭解他怎麼支用但是他同意後才能動之動人家的薪水要你同意不能理解好謝謝總委員幫機關講那麼多話那沒關係因為這樣我尊重總委員的發言也一定尊重總委員的提案內容但是我不認同總委員的說法那也請總委員尊重我的提案就好那您的不同意意見是你的堅持嘛那我們就我想說今天我們就是"},{"start":12288.108,"end":12315.829,"text":"對,不是不是,就機關的部分,就是看機關,你不要對機關下指導旗啦好,就是就機關的部分,那我這邊我的想法就是我剛那個秘書長說的,你說提書面報告就好那這個部分我覺得沒關係,我也可以接受那是不是說就按照我之前的提案這個提出書面報告然後經過同意後,使得動之這部分"},{"start":12317.17,"end":12344.636,"text":"我再跟主席補充報告啦其實跟原額沒有關係啦那最主要是我們增加的這個業務費用啦因為我們業務增加嘛所以業務費用我就等你們的說明沒問題就等你們的說明還有同意又使得動之嗎這個用詞不同喔我也當過召委啊我沒審過預算啊主席不能矇混過關提出書面報告後使得動之這是很清楚的我們的慣用語提出書面報告後今同意又使得動之"},{"start":12345.916,"end":12362.061,"text":"你還可以再加上一個專案報告但是如果你不加專案報告還是要經過同意我們當召委還是要排案所以還要當召委如果等到年底才有時間排案我們剛剛已經講書面報告了同意後死的公司這個同意這個同意你剛剛有唸了同意了你要堅持同意那同意要怎麼同意要委員會同意啊要列報告四項啊那如果經委員會同意我們反對啊我反對啊"},{"start":12375.307,"end":12375.647,"text":"主席發言"},{"start":12391.141,"end":12407.937,"text":"我不能發言嗎?我現在在跟機關討論那請你不要插嘴就機關部分我當然是非常希望說你們提出來的報告讓我們看了大家都非常滿意啦我們當然是希望這樣那我也說明我的立場我這個人個性我不會去報復性或惡意性的去做任何"},{"start":12408.718,"end":12410.199,"text":"我剛已經說明了我們能講的就是這些非常簡單的事情"},{"start":12434.758,"end":12459.596,"text":"還是說本案就保留好了就先這樣好了我看就不要再談下去了啦我看這個大家討論沒有結果談是浪費大家時間而已那我們現在審查第25案到第35案第5幕國家人權業務部分那我們是請提案的黃國昌委員先說明"},{"start":12461.038,"end":12480.735,"text":"謝謝主席針對有關於監察院在推動所謂的國家人權業務我必須要老實講當初在設這個所謂的國家人權委員會的時候台灣社會是很期待但問題是實際上面運作的結果過去這幾年來在社會上面"},{"start":12485.979,"end":12512.768,"text":"到目前為止民怨已經報表的從司法人權從被害者人權從勞動人權甚至連公務員最基本的人權我們看到的是國家人權委員會辦一些大敗敗的活動非常的會但實際上面實際上面對於真正人權的落實實際上面"},{"start":12514.815,"end":12531.343,"text":"所做出來的效果慘不能讀那不過在這個國家人權業務的這個幕下面他們編的預算是一億一千八百二十五萬六千元但是我們"},{"start":12532.463,"end":12548.437,"text":"在這個項目下面我們認為再給這個人權相關的業務給他們一些鼓勵激勵的空間所以在這個業務上下我們並沒有全部刪除我們刪除8500萬以上說明那我們接著請田安的羅委員說明"},{"start":12560.626,"end":12587.723,"text":"我覺得所謂的國家人權委員會簡直已經是後花圓化變成陳菊玩耍委員會大拜拜很會辦請問對我們的國家人權進步有任何的幫助嗎第一個最近公務員被霸凌公務員的人權問題像剛剛國常委員講的我們監察院這麼多年來你有關心公務員被霸凌問題過嗎沒有啊"},{"start":12591.325,"end":12614.615,"text":"那今天在講說你的監察院我看你們最重視的業務是什麼就是逐步廢除死刑啊所以我跟你講他不但是陳菊後花園委員會他也是陳菊廢死委員會啊台灣民意80%以上反對廢除死刑結果我們要花1億1825萬然後養一個陳菊後花園委員會養一個陳菊廢死委員會"},{"start":12621.906,"end":12622.667,"text":"林思敏不在"},{"start":12643.004,"end":12658.872,"text":"翁曉琳委員林思敏委員因為我有共同聯署所以我在這邊幫她講一下在國家人權業務的部分主要是針對媒體政策及業務宣導費從110年到114年度每年都是提高它的業務宣傳費用可是112年度的保留比率是達到27.8%大概200多萬雖然說這個"},{"start":12672.839,"end":12686.814,"text":"媒體宣傳的費用的目的是為了強化機關職能保障人權推廣人權教育可是事實上這樣的預算執行成效不彰而且呢也沒有達到應該要發揮的媒體宣傳的這個目的所以呢實際的編列有"},{"start":12689.276,"end":12710.423,"text":"復編之餘因此這裡就是說這個現在趕主決議了本來是原簡列150萬元然後那接下來呢第29案裡面同樣的也是針對媒體業務宣導費用的部分那麼看起來就是監察院他的沒宣的招標的情況集中在特定的廠商光是4家廠商就"},{"start":12711.553,"end":12722.818,"text":"取得25件的標案占比高達64.1%然後從此也沒有去檢討整個媒訊的效果所以在這裡的話也是凍結150萬元那我可以接下來繼續就我的報告那繼續就我的部分來說的話就是在人群業務的費用下面其實監察院他有"},{"start":12739.019,"end":12763.183,"text":"議員．議員．議員．議員"},{"start":12764.434,"end":12787.458,"text":"然後在31案的裏面則是針對國家人權委員會也是補助國內民間的各個團體人權相關團體可是這些名單也不清楚活動內容也散見各處根本就不容易讓外界去了解到底做了些什麼事情然後也不立監督所以我這裡就提出刪除預算200萬並且凍結50%"},{"start":12791.257,"end":12794.422,"text":"然後等到監察院將111年到113年的所有的合作的團體計劃經費等等資料會整完畢之後三個月內向我們提出書面報告才可以動之"},{"start":12806.312,"end":12810.414,"text":"第32案的話則是針對國家人權委員會協助人權受害者的這個議題雖然說這確實是也應該協助人權受害者可是他的執行內容有待釐清對於所謂的人權受害者的定義協助方式人次等等這些資訊都沒有公開那監察院應該予以說明所以我這裡就是提出刪除"},{"start":12829.603,"end":12832.927,"text":"逐減預算25萬並且凍結50%也是請監察院3個月內向司法法制委員會提出書面報告之後．時可以凍結。那麼33案的部分"},{"start":12843.42,"end":12851.106,"text":"則是國家人權委員會也是今年編列預算說要強化監察院的無障礙友善人權環境然後每年預算都編了差不多1100多萬特別是在於這個什麼陳情申訴業務系統功能的擴充無障礙友善人權環境的相關資訊設備所需經費可是呢這些內容為什麼每年都要編而且內容不是很清楚那所以在這裡的話"},{"start":12871.521,"end":12894.219,"text":"這個我就是本期也是提出要刪減減列400萬然後凍結預算25%要求監察院要在3個月內要就他的這個執行的細項內容執行辦法經費規劃等等這些說明完備之後的提出書面報告是可以凍支然後接下來34案的部分則是針對"},{"start":12899.133,"end":12922.167,"text":"監察院的國家人權委員會也是每年編了上千萬元用於人權教材人權教材的開發編譯製作及人權教育推廣活動那112年113年都是編了都是這個上千萬元不過他實際上的推廣的成果成效如何而且其實很多的人權的資料他不是不變的為什麼要每年都要重複的這個編列這個"},{"start":12925.449,"end":12943.048,"text":"事實上計畫內容並不清楚所以在這邊本席也提出要三結五百萬元並且凍結50%然後等到監察院三個月內向司法法制委員會提出書面報告後才可以凍值以上我大概講完了嗎對好一直到34好那OK從這位"},{"start":12949.119,"end":12964.607,"text":"本席跟提案委員吳世耀委員我們有一個35案那30案當然目前我們後來有跟改為主決議但是因為我們提案的內容還是要求要做說明那因為我們本案大家可以參照預算書第43頁是關於國家人權業務當中"},{"start":12968.869,"end":12977.712,"text":"他的原木的金額是高達1億1825萬6千元那我們針對的是教育推廣交流這當中是3803萬6千元在這個向下我們針對一般事務費3212萬6千元的部分我們去做一個檢討那這個3212萬6千元我們是針對其中說明欄的阿拉伯數字第三那麼"},{"start":12998.486,"end":13021.938,"text":"辦理人權教材開發編譯製作以及後辦人權教育推廣活動所需要的經費就是這當中的1097萬6千元這個向下因為這裡包含媒體政策及業務宣導費用300萬但是我們針對的是其中的不是300萬的部分是1097萬6千元當中扣除300萬的部分我們針對的是海報展"},{"start":13022.618,"end":13048.835,"text":"在海報展我們推論是在說明欄當中的這個向下就是一般事務費當中所關於推廣活動的1097萬6千元不包含那300萬內容當中我們要求凍結50萬那理由是說人權委員會為了鼓勵各界參與人權相關活動每年都有辦理人權海報的設計競賽那既然是每年辦理"},{"start":13049.355,"end":13077.426,"text":"我們當然希望他能夠持續提高他的效益那鑑於如此在去年是世界人權宣言的75週年那分別在臺北臺南高雄辦理了75年的海報特展也創造了高達70萬以上的參展人次但是比較遺憾的是在高雄市的部分因為本期也在南部我們看到的這個參展人數是相對的大幅減少非常可惜所以我們希望"},{"start":13078.386,"end":13093.681,"text":"國家人權委員會針對每年要經常辦理的人權海報的設計競賽活動既然有要做推廣讓民眾來參與那南部的部分要如何的提升我們針對過去的預算執行提出這個要求那本來我們是要求要凍結50萬那麼現在我們同意改為3個月內向我們委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":13100.607,"end":13106.873,"text":"希望機關代表同意回應我們對於人權海報的推廣活動能夠提供更好的效益因為剛剛您做了一個宣告就是我們今天的會議時間進行到所有提案處理完畢為止因為上午我們已經超過12點了"},{"start":13125.689,"end":13152.875,"text":"我們也不能預期這個審查還會進行到什麼時候那基於今天的天氣較冷希望我們的工作人員可以先給與會的出列席人員午餐的便當大家可以邊用餐邊進去審查以便維持體力以上建議謝謝最後中召委員那個建議我覺得很棒就是說請議事人員就照這樣處理那我們也是加快腳步趕快把它審完那請問一下"},{"start":13155.558,"end":13172.278,"text":"陳委員主席雖然我不是本委員會但是我們第二輪也會提出我在這裡先想說明說幾件事情有關這個人權的部分基本人權裡頭這個是包括表達意見和言論自由的意見那在落實到我們的憲法裡頭的人民的這個權利裡頭"},{"start":13173.499,"end":13194.635,"text":"其中有一個是人民秘密通訊之自由那我想瞭解就是說國家人權委員會在我們金台院底下針對今年5月27號這個有這個民進黨的公那時候的公政策執行長王一川現在我們王委員在媒體公開宣稱說就是可以這個用通訊這個訊號來"},{"start":13197.296,"end":13222.893,"text":"這個瞭解民眾是青鳥還是小草還是凱達格蘭大道上面的群眾這件事情不知道監察委員監察院這一邊有沒有監察委員提出主動的這個報告或是調查來有沒有提出主動的調查來保護我們國人這個不受這個秘密通信不受這個侵犯的這個自由這是最基本的一個人權不知道監察委員在這一方面"},{"start":13223.573,"end":13233.708,"text":"有沒有做任何的動作或者是只是辦一些海報啊畫畫海報啊辦辦活動啊貼貼標語啊這樣留意形式的活動可以請主席先先這個"},{"start":13238.075,"end":13265.233,"text":"就是我想詢問監察院針對這個5月17日王逸川民進黨的政策中央政策執行長在這個媒體上公開宣稱說可以用訊號來監控百姓就是知道他是什麼青樓還是小草還是凱達哥還是什麼這個部分不知道監察委員及這個國內我們對國家人權這個保障方面有沒有監察委員提出主動要求要調查這件事情因為這嚴重侵犯也侵犯我們憲法上的基本權利"},{"start":13268.034,"end":13292.532,"text":"監察院只是流於行事 貼貼辦辦海報活動啊 談談標語啊 辦一些什麼說不定是演唱會啊這一類的 實際的保障人權的動作有做嗎 這件事情想請教 監察院針對這個部分因為我們剛剛是說全部問完以後 請他們一起回答 那就麻煩監察院這邊就剛剛各個委員以及陳玉珍委員所提出來的問題亦回答"},{"start":13293.902,"end":13310.449,"text":"好,謝謝主席。針對陳玉珍委員的提問我先回答。監察院依照憲法的規定我們的職責是針對公務人員跟公務機關。王逸川作為民進黨部政策會執行長,他不是公務人員。"},{"start":13311.269,"end":13338.388,"text":"他也不是民進黨也不是公務機關所以不在我們的調查範圍之內那現在他是公務人員嗎?現在是廣義的公務人員嗎?立法院立法委員也不是我們調查的對象民意代表不是我們調查的對象那針對這個民間隊這件事情如果有提出舉發也不在你們的人權保障範圍的...舉發要具體舉出在哪裡什麼事情那如果是民間對象就不是我們調查的範圍就不是就對了所以說如果我們看到到"},{"start":13339.469,"end":13342.27,"text":"我跟陳委員說明我們只對公務人員跟公務機關我跟陳委員報告"},{"start":13366.741,"end":13368.422,"text":"我現在說明監察院裡面有所謂的國家人權委員會他是我們底下的一個單位他負責人權事項他的對象不只公務人員你聽我講完"},{"start":13382.592,"end":13411.106,"text":"但是在各案監察院的處理我們只處理公務人員跟公務機關所以包括剛剛羅志強委員所提的霸凌案我們有調查46個我們只能針對各案來調查那不是公務人員不是公務機關我們沒辦法調查所以我告訴你嘛關於公務員被霸凌或是其他的事情的話各有各的主管機關他不是監察院主管"},{"start":13412.226,"end":13438.055,"text":"我現在請教是在國家人權這個業務下面有國家人權委員會吧這個委員會沒有辦法針對這個人民的基本秘密通訊的這個他沒有辦法針對王一川這件事情做掉什麼我已經說明了很清楚了那很好那我在第二輪因為我們本席不是司法委員但是我在下一次提案因為這樣表示真正發生我講我的看法"},{"start":13438.575,"end":13466.169,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13467.712,"end":13481.762,"text":"剛剛其實在第一案的時候還甚至就監察院的功能都在討論不是就人權委員會請問一下機關這邊還有沒有要回答其他委員剛剛的提問有關25萬到35萬這個是有關我們國家人權委員會的一個預算的編列那幾個問題我跟各位報告"},{"start":13493.531,"end":13502.277,"text":"這有關教材的部分剛剛翁小林委員關心到的事實上我們跟國教院合作我們總共有14套教材另外跟保訓會合作有14個課程還有3個podcast另外現在各機關也分別針對他們機關的行使權利希望我們協助來做這個人權教材包括現在正在進行的是警政署這個是第一個說明第二個部分剛剛公務員霸凌的部分"},{"start":13523.131,"end":13532.475,"text":"我已經說得很清楚公務員霸凌的真正的主管機關是行政院還有考試院的保訓會並不是監察院那監察院只能針對個案來查我們查過46案那另外有關這個其他這個剛剛講的海報設計展其實海報設計展有很大的迴響那今年我們還擴大向海外徵稿"},{"start":13547,"end":13550.724,"text":"包括總共真的1000多件包括獲獎的都還有香港的人還有來自馬來西亞的都有來參加我們的設計展至於剛剛鍾嘉斌委員所提到的展覽的部分確實我們發現今年在展覽的地點的選擇上是比較不恰當的"},{"start":13572.504,"end":13582.956,"text":"這個部分展覽的地點我們會在明年度我們會做比較適當的選擇最好是這個大家都到的了的地方而且不是一個封閉性的場地這樣會比較理想至於這個25萬黃委員所提的這個是"},{"start":13589.242,"end":13592.744,"text":"以去年加拿大的訪問來提今年的預算不過這個三列國家人權委員會業務8500萬這個我們國家人權委員會就沒有辦法運作了國家人權委員會依照組織法第二條我們相關規定有9項業務要推動這個我們持續在推動當中所以這個部分我們確實有困難"},{"start":13611.013,"end":13634.239,"text":"那其他的部分翁曉琳委員提到的這個合作的名單這個得標的廠商事實上並沒有翁曉琳委員所提的那個重複的部分或是集中在一個兩個公司的問題這個我們都可以提供具體的採購案還有具體的合作案的名單給貴會委員以上報告"},{"start":13640.237,"end":13660.482,"text":"請問各位委員就監察院的報告有沒有其他意見就保留吧我想說大家一致也不一致那是不是除了第28案跟第35案是改為主決議嗎2829嗎不是吧"},{"start":13667.233,"end":13669.434,"text":"29案林委員有同意修正文字"},{"start":13693.945,"end":13709.432,"text":"我們是改數字吧28、29都是動150這個已經取得29啦28改組決議29是動150我們同意林委員的"},{"start":13723.753,"end":13730.42,"text":"如果你同意的話我當然沒有意見啊那這個就並委員會的決議嘛對因為我剛剛那個講法是對你們比較有利吧是"},{"start":13736.209,"end":13738.93,"text":"第5幕國家人權業務提案第25案至第35案"},{"start":13762.556,"end":13779.344,"text":"第28跟第35案改為主決議那其餘預算提案25至27、29至34均於保留好那我們接著處理第6目一般建築及設備提案案號第36至第39"},{"start":13782.226,"end":13809.581,"text":"主席我不是要發言我只是要請這個監察院是不是因為本期在審預算的時候他們提供資料還有剛剛的表回答也很重要針對這個媒體政策及業務宣導費三年招標請有4家廠商取得25表案的這個部分請把資料送到我的辦公室好嗎我們會提供給司法委員再麻煩監察院好那接下來我們就處理36到39那請提案的委員黃國昌說明"},{"start":13811.92,"end":13812.783,"text":"然後那個第"},{"start":13814.765,"end":13835.358,"text":"6幕的第一節營建工程的部分他們編列的預算是1699萬那我們看實際上面的內容真的有一些比如說像古蹟維護消防的需求這個我們同意所以在這一款的第6幕1699萬所編列的項目當中我們只有簡列244萬5000元以上"},{"start":13845.657,"end":13848.779,"text":"第38案要不要一遍說明一下"},{"start":13859.756,"end":13878.102,"text":"38案的部分就是說就有關於換電腦也好啦換通訊也好我看了大概前年去年吧每一年都有編列他們的預算所以我覺得就有關於這項支出的部分我們就支持"},{"start":13879.183,"end":13887.998,"text":"全球資訊網無障礙的改善其他的部分就全部刪除所以他們提的預算是2350萬一千元我們簡列2150萬一千元以上說明"},{"start":13892.304,"end":13911.043,"text":"那我的部分因為跟第三期案因為跟36案那個類似嘛所以我就不多提那那我們麻煩這個監察院陳委員有要說補充的"},{"start":13912.123,"end":13926.271,"text":"這個就是當然我也是第二輪才會提不過對於他們的預算這個營建工編1699萬做這麼多事情感到很驚訝因為我看那個就業安定基金一個餐廳的外牆整修就編了兩千就使用了2839萬"},{"start":13928.55,"end":13928.91,"text":"接下來就請機關就這個部分說明"},{"start":13955.893,"end":13975.338,"text":"謝謝主席 有關這一幕是營建工程 那我跟各位報告就是說我們是國定股機 所以我們每年都會有營建工程 我們是分區分段來實施那有一個問題就是我們碰到股機的時候 我們必須要有動到股機 我們才能夠做其他項目的修繕"},{"start":13978.105,"end":13995.621,"text":"黃委員剛剛提的其他的部分刪掉我們244萬 這其實是我們一個冰水機 76年到現在都已經故障不能使用了 那我們這一個通風管我們要利用古蹟修繕的期間才能夠換這個通風管"},{"start":13997.503,"end":14018.324,"text":"那今年我們因為通風管的變換或是什麼樣我們節省的電的使用程度我們節省了14萬度啦那連立法院的總務處都來問我們怎麼審的那所以我們希望這個部分還是讓我們做還是讓我們做那我們只有而且這個都還要事先送我們資局審查的"},{"start":14019.245,"end":14036.109,"text":"因為我們動到這個古蹟然後要古蹟修繕的時候我們才可以處理這件事情那第二個剛剛提到有關資訊設備那我一開始就說了我們今年的資本門是減少的我們經常門是增加那資本門減少但是為什麼這連續兩年都還有編列這個這個相關的硬體的設備其實很簡單就超越年限的"},{"start":14043.551,"end":14064.806,"text":"現在有規定,今年的規定是你只要2021以前的通通不能使用所以我們必須依照這樣的規定來處理那這個是部分那其他我們最主要的費用都是用在系統的維護上包括我剛剛所說明的我們總共有39個系統那其實15個是有關財產申報的所以這個部分還是希望這個"},{"start":14067.308,"end":14091.198,"text":"這個委員會能夠考量考量我們這個非常非常辛苦所以這個部分還是希望能夠委員會再討論一下以上報告好謝謝那好一樣嘛大家想法差不多那那個中召委就是有關第36到39案的部分予以保留不知道中召委有沒有意見可以嗎好"},{"start":14096.944,"end":14121.509,"text":"第6幕後一般建築及設備預算提案案號第36案至第39案均於保留繼續處理第6款第一項監察院之主決議提案案號第40案至第56案請問就第40案部分我們做文字修正請問一下機關有無意見"},{"start":14139.244,"end":14162.614,"text":"好那沒有意見的話我們就依照修正的通過那第41案請問機關有無意見那我們就專案通過42案機關有無意見應該要保留吧內容有偏頗42案主決內容文字敘述有偏頗在罵國民黨和民眾黨我提案啦不然我二輪也會提出來我先跟他們講"},{"start":14164.898,"end":14178.397,"text":"我們先把遊戲規則建立清楚嘛是在這裡是只要提案委員提案那被監督的部門不管是監察院還是行政院所屬各機關同意就通過那其他黨團都不能置會"},{"start":14180.055,"end":14203.96,"text":"還是說要各個黨團都同意才會通過我們先把遊戲規則講清楚就不要造成紛擾嘛那不要在一個場合的時候說遊戲規則是一套到另外一個場合遊戲規則是另外一套嘛所以先請召委裁示一下就有關於提案的通過不通過是要各個黨團都同意還是提案的"},{"start":14205.441,"end":14230.652,"text":"委員然後跟相對的機關他們同意就可以了我覺得這個遊戲規則的建立蠻重要的啦依照過往的的前例是委員自己可以大家可以討論出一個共識啊那就看大家的共識如何對啊那所以我主張42案保留啊好那那個中委員好"},{"start":14234.496,"end":14240.4,"text":"第42案的部分我們就予以保留第43案文字修正後沒有意見第44案機關有意見"},{"start":14262.944,"end":14284.77,"text":"好那如果機關沒有意見的話那各位委員也沒有意見那我們就依照修正後通過那第45案請問機關有意見那請問各位委員有意見好那沒有的話就依照45案依照文字修正後通過那第46案請問機關有意見好那請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":14288.651,"end":14314.75,"text":"黃委員有沒有意見沒有好那我們就依照主決議通過那第47案請問機關有意見好沒有意見那請問各位委員有意見好那沒有的話就依照修正後通過那第48案請問機關好沒有意見那各位委員有意見那沒有的話就依據修正後通過那49案機關有意見好"},{"start":14319.157,"end":14343.119,"text":"各位委員有意見沒有意見的話依照修正後通過第50案機關有意見沒有意見各位委員有意見沒有的話我們就依據主決議通過第51案是側案第52案請問機關有意見各位委員有意見"},{"start":14345.077,"end":14352.969,"text":"好沒有的話就依據主決議通過好第53案機關有意見好那各位委員有意見"},{"start":14355.788,"end":14377.074,"text":"我有意見這53案我老實講我真的他基本上面是過看起來是要過組決議嘛那現實上面他是包裹著幫他們在議事業務下面下的預算的內容去做支持的意思嘛那因為這件事情我們之前就已經保留了嘛那所以對這個組決議的內容本黨團競表不同意"},{"start":14384.77,"end":14407.699,"text":"好那就53案的部分我們就予以保留好那請問第54案機關有意見那各位委員有意見好那沒有的話我們就依主決議通過好第55案機關有意見那各位委員有意見"},{"start":14409.568,"end":14417.428,"text":"沒有的話第55案就照主決議通過那第56案機關有意見那各位委員有意見"},{"start":14418.581,"end":14427.306,"text":"主決議提案案號第40案至第56案遭案通過部分為41465052545556遭案通過第4434445474849遭修正後通過第51案撤案第4253案保留送協商"},{"start":14447.382,"end":14460.516,"text":"本日議程討論事項已經處理完畢就以下宣告114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管（不含審計部及所屬）收支部分審查完畢提報院會院會討論前需交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳釗偉中線說明"},{"start":14468.663,"end":14488.013,"text":"有關本日議程討論事項通過修正之預算提案請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後送交主席台列入公報記錄通過之決議依例文字修授權主席及議事人員整理本日會議進行到此現在休息謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16381","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16381","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd2d34adc683ae39a14f7cda26dcb539f878081dad70f87c460ba50a432e844aa05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長及桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長就「如何提升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光署及所屬單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─觀光發展基金分預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管中華郵政股份有限公司營業預算。\n【僅進行詢答；第二案至第四案委員預算提案於12月25日中午12時前截止收件】【12月18日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-18","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-18T08:31:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-18T13:29:00+08:00","duration":17858,"影片長度":"04:57:38","委員發言時間":"08:31:22 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start":1896.612,"end":1904.321,"text":"接下來是中華郵政有限公司前交通部長王國才董事長以及我們中華郵政會計處除秀敏專委"},{"start":1919.264,"end":1942.571,"text":"行政院主計總署公務預算處黃子涵專委以及我們基金預算處李正道科長。好,謝謝今天所有列席的官員。本次會議進行一、如何提升過境及轉機旅客入台觀光。"},{"start":1943.854,"end":1961.699,"text":"觀光發展基金非營業預算．中華郵政公司營業預算等三項預算進行審查．第二,114年度觀光署及所屬單位預算、觀光發展基金非營業預算、中華郵政公司營業預算等三項預算進行審查．"},{"start":1964.346,"end":1986.228,"text":"那也請我們待會部長三分鐘再加兩分鐘對於上海預計開放這個組團來,那您的那個態度,還有剛剛記者媒體問你還沒﹖大局的時候講的那個﹖不不,你待會報告的時候順便加這一小part好不好,因為這種突發事件。首先就邀請我們交通部陳部長報告。"},{"start":1996.004,"end":2012.581,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀至貴委員會就如何提升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數進行專案報告並聆聽各位委員指教深感榮幸"},{"start":2015.014,"end":2030.73,"text":"就剛剛昭偉所指示上海這個開放旅客或者是團客來台灣的部分其實交通部跟觀光署的態度一向都是歡迎中國的旅客可以來到台灣"},{"start":2031.551,"end":2049.919,"text":"那過去其實台灣的旅客要到中國去旅行相對來說是沒有限制的是相當的自由那我們現在也看到相當多的台灣的旅客到中國去旅遊跟旅行那我們顧慮的跟顧及的其實是我們國家出遊的旅客的安全問題"},{"start":2051.339,"end":2073.252,"text":"當然,如果上海願意釋出這樣子的善意,可以讓大陸的旅客可以來到台灣旅遊,我們的態度都是歡迎的。從過去到現在我們的態度都是一樣。也很遺憾的是過去在這一段時間裡面,中國對於來台旅遊的這個團客或者是自由行的限制,可以說是相當的多。"},{"start":2073.792,"end":2094.503,"text":"那所以造成這個中國來台的旅客相對來說是非常非常的少那如果中國可以放開過去的這個政治限制可以讓他們的國民可以自由的來台觀光跟旅遊我們是相當的歡迎那台灣其實也都做好相當的準備台灣的不管是旅遊業也好"},{"start":2095.103,"end":2108.965,"text":"或業者也好其實做了相當多的準備,隨時可以歡迎中國的旅客來台旅遊。以上,就上海的開放旅客的可能性,來跟各位委員來做報告。"},{"start":2110.66,"end":2120.688,"text":"那近兩年隨著疫後國境解封我國的旅客跟轉機的旅客逐步的回升112年轉機旅客達到637萬餘人次113年11月到11月轉機的旅客量已經突破625萬人次預計今年可以再創歷史的新高"},{"start":2133.098,"end":2152.643,"text":"目前觀光署就已經就吸引外籍旅客來台觀光推動多項的措施其中特別針對在台停留7至24小時以內的轉機旅客只有效簽證或者是免簽者提供半日遊的旅程讓旅客來選擇114年為了響應2025年台灣燈會在桃園"},{"start":2159.125,"end":2187.508,"text":"也已經規劃了更多的旅程跟旅行的可能鼓勵轉機的旅客入境台灣並透過各種管道積極向國際的旅客宣傳期望能夠打響台灣的觀光品牌以下請本部觀光署周署長就如何提升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數向各位委員報告另有關"},{"start":2188.689,"end":2212.447,"text":"觀光署單位預算、觀光發展基金及中華郵政公司114年度業務計劃及預算編類內容由周署長及王董事長接續向各位委員提出報告與說明,敬請會議指教與支持。謝謝。好,請觀光署周署長報告。"},{"start":2218.74,"end":2240.627,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生將部觀光署緊究如何提升過境及轉機旅客入境台灣觀光品質並增加觀光人數以及114年度單位預算及觀光發展基金分預算案分別進行報告。"},{"start":2241.907,"end":2269.137,"text":"進行各位委員指教首先在台灣過境及轉機旅客方面桃園國際機場在疫情前也就是108年度那麼所有的轉機客大概算起來是564萬人次那麼疫情解封後也就是112年的5月那麼在當年度呢轉機的旅客"},{"start":2270.117,"end":2295.622,"text":"就如同剛剛部長所報告的637萬人次較疫情前成長了13%那麼113年度的今年那到11月為止我們已經超過了625萬人次那麼最主要的轉機還是在我們的東南亞轉接北美的這樣子一個方向所以轉機的需求與日俱增"},{"start":2296.582,"end":2325.064,"text":"目前我國過境旅客入境台灣的這個觀光半日遊程裡面為主。那麼現行的方案裡面針對在台停留的部分就如同剛剛部長所報告的那麼我們叫做過境半日遊的措施。那麼主要是在團體的導覽跟自由行。那麼團體的導覽主要分別走訪台北市、桃園市跟新北市為主。"},{"start":2326.172,"end":2335.363,"text":"那麼目前的執行成效來講,疫後統計112年度的部分約5000人次,那麼113年度截至11月底為止約9000人次,那麼我們佔比來講團體大概佔60%,那麼自由行佔40%,"},{"start":2347.216,"end":2368.844,"text":"我們會配合114年度的台灣燈會在桃園那麼連結以桃園捷運的A18站跟A19站來做推廣那麼也會增加一些限定的郵程跟相關的旅行業跟品寶協會合作那麼規劃更多的日間跟夜間的郵程由專人來定時導覽"},{"start":2370.877,"end":2394.905,"text":"將部觀光署持續在轉機的進進方向來講,主要是兩個部分。一個是擴大宣傳行銷力道。第二個部分呢,我們希望能夠強化郵程的規劃跟服務。我們也會跟機場合作,機場公司合作以協助的方式讓機場的CIQS相關單位進行協調提升轉機客的這樣子的一個相關的服務。"},{"start":2395.945,"end":2421.193,"text":"那麼隨著疫後的國際航線的復甦我們希望日後也跟桃園機場公司跟民航局的相關的機場共同來合作相關的轉機的服務那麼利用各種管道的行銷並且加大跟地方政府的共同推廣來搶供更多的轉機客入境台灣那麼針對114年度"},{"start":2424.025,"end":2448.684,"text":"的我們交通部觀光署及所屬的相關的預算僅就各位委員報告那麼在114年度的施政計畫重點恆濁疫後的國際永續觀光趨勢那麼在建構更理想的這個發展所以我們觀光署主改之後致力推動永續發展與數位轉型"},{"start":2451.328,"end":2454.117,"text":"那麼透過觀光品牌影客千萬,"},{"start":2455.322,"end":2479.077,"text":"跟環島亮點捲動國旅以及跨域整合、多元旅遊及智慧景區的價值提升四大策略立即2025邁向2030來擴大吸引國際旅客來台並捲動國旅。那麼在114年度的四大施政方向裡面那麼相關資料請各位委員能夠參閱書面的資料"},{"start":2482.27,"end":2505.725,"text":"那麼大家所關心的觀光客、影客千萬的部分仍然重點在於開拓多元市場持續一程多站跟順道旅遊那麼推動新南向的市場那麼包括簽證的簡便措施那麼第四項就是爭取國際大型活動在台舉辦"},{"start":2507.116,"end":2528.742,"text":"那麼我們也希望跟22個縣市政府共同來行銷,我們來捲動環島的百大亮點。那麼尤其是跨域整合的部分,我們除了國際魅力景區之外,我們也希望能夠結合觀光圈、商圈、休閒農場、觀光工廠做跨域的整合,以旅遊帶的方式來推廣。"},{"start":2529.946,"end":2546.959,"text":"那麼在智慧景區的部分除了我們國家風景區管理處之外我們也會跟國家公園、地質公園跟各縣市政府的景區、風景區來做串接光屬在114年度的公務預算編列部分"},{"start":2547.898,"end":2555.741,"text":"那麼稅入預算編列數是4967萬8千元與113年度相同。那麼在稅出的部分我們編列了55億1636萬9千元較113年度增加3億3130萬元1千元。"},{"start":2575.089,"end":2597.58,"text":"那麼主要是補助地方強化景區,那麼我們在觀光業務向下的11億2,209萬1千元,那麼有佔比有10億元,那麼主要是協助地方政府打造新的亮點。另外對於我們國家風景區開發與管理部分,"},{"start":2598.912,"end":2603.953,"text":"編列了33億6,840萬元,主要是13個管理處辦理國家風景區的建設計畫所需,較113年度減少1億42萬5千元。114年度的觀光發展基金部分,業務總收入90億8,618萬6千元,較113年度預算,"},{"start":2628.396,"end":2656.172,"text":"七十五億三千兩百五十四萬五千元,增加十五億五千三百六十四萬元。那麼主要是在於預期出境人數的增加跟機場服務費收入的增加所致。業務總支出的部分我們會強化國際行銷。那麼在整個預算的總支出編列七十八億六千五百零七萬五千元。"},{"start":2657.472,"end":2679.577,"text":"那麼較113年度那麼減少兩億三千七百五十七萬七千元主要是配合特別預算撥入基金執行來減編所至。那麼固定資產建設改良擴充部分編列了六億五千兩百三十三萬四千元。"},{"start":2680.885,"end":2698.069,"text":"有關於112年度與113年度截至11月份為止的預算執行方面我們在112年度的公務預算執行那麼稅入預算跟決算數已經較這個預算的增加1606萬1千元那麼稅出預算數跟決算數的執行率達97.34%"},{"start":2709.42,"end":2714.826,"text":"那麼110年度在基金預算部分業務總收入預算數是29億8755萬6千元那麼跟這個決算數相較那麼增加了54億"},{"start":2725.967,"end":2731.189,"text":"總支出65億4,792萬3千元,較預算增加16億4,028萬元,主要是肺炎特別預算相關補助措施結算剩餘款繳回所至。"},{"start":2750.663,"end":2756.389,"text":"在113年度截至11月子預算執行部分公務預算執行率81.32%稅出預算61億8506萬餘元那麼執行率是94.54%"},{"start":2770.373,"end":2781.141,"text":"那麼113年度的基金預算部分總收入預算編列75億3254萬餘元那麼截至11月份為止那麼我們的實收數是87億2414萬餘元那麼總支出的編列數是81億265萬餘元截至11月份執行數為"},{"start":2796.132,"end":2823.327,"text":"五十一億三百三十七萬餘元,執行率為八十七點八四,固定資產部分,那麼我們一百一十三年度可用預算為四千三百零八萬餘元,那麼執行率為九十五點九七percent,觀光署及所屬各管理處在一百一十四年度我們會以九大重點工作來執行,"},{"start":2824.656,"end":2839.064,"text":"打造推廣百大亮點那麼景區智慧化帶動在地產業尤其是會強化三大核心的觀光產業旅行業、旅宿業、遊樂區業的升級跟平保"},{"start":2841.625,"end":2866.198,"text":"第七項就是國際影客第八項是4G的主題營造第九項的工作重點就是人才的培訓跟調查研究讓有更多的資料來做精準投放在預算我們仍然以台灣整體的策略性思考來逐步推動各項的計畫以及按照優先順序"},{"start":2867.239,"end":2887.844,"text":"那麼先後緩急來做編列。那麼我們適時的配合施政的需要妥適編列。敬請各位委員會議支持與指教。謝謝。好,謝謝我們觀光署的報告。接下來有請中華郵政公司黃國才董事長報告。"},{"start":2893.601,"end":2898.05,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生。以下就中華郵政114年的業務計畫跟預算做一個報告。"},{"start":2903.107,"end":2930.352,"text":"AI跟數位時代的來臨也改變人們的這個用油的一個形式所以中華郵政的數位轉型是現在進行式在油務部分包括數位化因為改變用油的習慣透過數位化提升營運效率優化包裹跟快捷的遞送服務在儲位方面提供稀釋整合的數位金融服務作險部分因應年輕人我們強化行動跟網路投保的服務"},{"start":2931.252,"end":2942.905,"text":"那以下就這個預算部分用一個很摘要的部分跟各位報告在113年的預算在油物部分總共這個我們達成率是95.1%總共計出了16億5588萬件除外的部分"},{"start":2948.911,"end":2954.453,"text":"平均的優惠、存款優惠是7兆2562億達成年度預算的95.33%檢疫授權的部分保衛收入699億8282萬元達成年度預算的82.01%那到目前的這個"},{"start":2967.475,"end":2973.818,"text":"二、審查124年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":2990.607,"end":2996.653,"text":"黃地及新建集屋累進進度96.91%,郵政物流園區進度99.32%,今年底會全部完成,計劃告一段落,開始安裝機具。"},{"start":3009.011,"end":3035.973,"text":"有關於在114年的業務重點在郵輸部分我們現在是簡化EasyPost的網路各項功能也持續優化我們愛郵箱的操作介面跟流程我們希望把它愛郵箱變成一個無人店來處理那另外就是建置上門收件的網路業的系統以及對我們郵運派車的系統的優化這是我們在"},{"start":3036.834,"end":3041.957,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算．三、二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算．"},{"start":3062.895,"end":3072.167,"text":"那有關於114年預算的編列,我們油物部分,我們預估這個會稍微增加,就是17億4125萬件,"},{"start":3075.354,"end":3091.029,"text":"會比這個年度增加大概20萬件,那儲金的部分大概7兆3千億,那大概會增加這個整個儲金大概3330億,那捲一授錢的部分,大概一估保費收入是853億3600萬元,這跟這個12年度是相同的。"},{"start":3095.553,"end":3103.941,"text":"另外在整個淨利的部分我們初估是35億2208萬加上公積跟其他損益的轉入我們一估有55億793萬會繳庫以上報告進行各位指教謝謝好謝謝黃董事長"},{"start":3122.93,"end":3139.725,"text":"我們現在就進行合併詢答先宣告以下事項第一、詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘第二、委員發言登記於10點30分截止本委員會之外第三、各委員如有臨時提案"},{"start":3140.585,"end":3153.553,"text":"請於10點鐘提出以便議事人員會診。第四、暫定10點30分休息10分鐘。第五、中午原則上不休息。現在就請登記第一位李崑澤委員發言。謝謝召委。請一下陳世凱部長、觀光署州署長。"},{"start":3172.496,"end":3184.361,"text":"部長好、署長好。部長有關於榮耀號在8號因為引擎故障滯留日本沖繩。在9號的時候質詢我要求儘速地將民眾接回來。"},{"start":3191.846,"end":3209.873,"text":"當時部長好像沒什麼信心,說9號質詢你認為12號才有辦法將所有的國人接回來台灣。當時我也要求部長要全力督促,後來在10號就已經全部都回來了。"},{"start":3210.373,"end":3231.896,"text":"比我預計的你講的12號我要求的11號更提前到一天那基本上我們對部長的效率還有民行局的努力基本上給予肯定但是部長這只是一個突發狀況的隨堂小測驗你通過這個考試但是我們交通部最重要的工作還是在於"},{"start":3232.757,"end":3243.361,"text":"交通安全維護、交通建設的推動還有觀光旅遊的推動都是重要的業務之一。但是我們來看一下我們相關的觀光的"},{"start":3246.851,"end":3257.896,"text":"現況我們2019年跟2024年出國的人次同期來對比一月到十月2019年1456萬2024年1416萬就是說它恢復的比例出國的人次已經恢復到97.22但是來台灣的國際旅客2019跟2024來做一個比較"},{"start":3276.584,"end":3303.115,"text":"一至十月2019年973萬2024年一到十月只有620萬恢復的比例只有63.78就是說我們看到這樣的一個衝擊對旅遊的發展這個國人越來越沒有信心了我們觀光署自己公布的台灣觀光旅遊調查報告"},{"start":3305.149,"end":3324.791,"text":"國人不出國的因素是什麼?主要是假期無法配合有25.9那如果假期可以配合的話出國的人會更多呢?部長到底發生什麼事?為何如此光光的國際旅客來衰退成這種樣子?"},{"start":3326.8,"end":3354.051,"text":"報告委員因為疫情之後確實台灣的這個國際觀光的旅客恢復的速度不是只有台灣有疫情對全世界都有疫情那其他國家的速度比台灣快那台灣在今年的這個速度確實是慢了一些所以觀光署其實在這段時間也相當努力無論是國外的宣傳或者是說台灣的觀光亮點的努力其實我們都努力在做努力成只有恢復六成這叫努力嗎"},{"start":3354.871,"end":3373.172,"text":"做得不夠好,所以必須要改進也必須要改善。部長我要提醒你,我們的國際旅客恢復的狀況不佳。日本來台灣的旅客大概只恢復六成。韓國的旅客恢復不到八成。東南亞比較好一點有將近九成。那相關的"},{"start":3374.537,"end":3402.111,"text":"部長你認為這個因素到底是什麼簡單說明一下報告委員我覺得可能是台灣疫情也有關係但疫情是全世界都有但我們今年四月遇到了一個地震也確實是影響日本也有地震日本也有地震但是台灣的觀光的那個地震影響的是太魯閣也就是說台灣過去很著重的一個觀光亮點確實受到了影響那這個部分當然不可以作為理由啦這個部分必須要再檢討說為什麼他們來的少"},{"start":3403.672,"end":3429.786,"text":"那也跟委員報告我們在第四季其實日本跟韓國的旅客其實已經有一些回升了到了現在為止日本來台的旅客已經到了120萬以上超過120萬部長還是只有六成多啦我請教部長你明年你定下的國際旅客的目標是多少報告委員我的想法是這樣今年沒有達到的明年要達到今年設定了1000萬你看你又跟榮耀號的狀況又一樣"},{"start":3432.367,"end":3436.617,"text":"你有能力推升到1200,然後你說就以1000作為目標。"},{"start":3438.595,"end":3460.021,"text":"報告委員這個可能只是個及格的目標啦只是一個及格的目標我們當然希望能夠拉得更高部長我再提醒另外一個觀光的危機就是我們觀光署自己統計的我們29歲以下國人出國旅遊的人次是持續的上升2019年的時候是24.28那到2024年已經上升到26.14"},{"start":3467.163,"end":3478.47,"text":"這是逐年的上升29歲以下的年輕人是我們觀光未來發展一個重要的主力但是我們的主力不想在台灣旅遊想要出國去旅遊這個"},{"start":3481.616,"end":3507.363,"text":"部長你有沒有注意到這個趨勢?你有沒有什麼因應的辦法?其實國旅的部分除了我們要爭取國際旅客之外本國人在國家裡面在我們台灣裡面的旅遊也是很重要也就是說國旅的推動確實在這段時間我們有看到例如說墾丁的國旅的吸引力可能有些下滑然後還有一些其他地方的國旅的吸引力也下滑也有旅客在反映說我們的飯店是不是太貴我覺得這一類的問題要一一來解決"},{"start":3509.604,"end":3536.456,"text":"讓大家讓國人比較願意留在台灣旅遊。部長我們覺得我們對於觀光產業的危機我們必須要面對問題才能解決問題我們來看我們觀光面臨的困境主要是觀光的同質性高缺乏特色的魅力然後缺乏區域的景點的這種品牌而且旅遊的品質也不佳疫情期間"},{"start":3537.737,"end":3564.622,"text":"它的轉型跟改善是不足的而且數位運用、資訊及交通整合也不夠好乘車及購票的資訊取得是很困難而且標誌的指引缺失或是雜亂的資訊禁用性非常的差而且宣傳跟特色沒有辦法結合缺乏核心的客群這都是我們面臨很嚴重的問題部長說明一下"},{"start":3565.942,"end":3583.436,"text":"報告委員您所提的這幾點其實我覺得觀光署應該要就這幾點我們一一來解決這也確實是一般民眾大家目前對於國旅可能信心不足的原因這個其實委員您指的這幾點其實相當的完整那這個部分其實我覺得觀光署應該要"},{"start":3584.276,"end":3611.914,"text":"一點一點我們來克服。部長,這是日本的做法為例。日本去年就已經通過了觀光立國的推進基本計畫。他們就是要搭配地方創生來區域性的地方的特色建立起來。來打造區域旅遊的這一種品牌的特色。但是我們一直沒有做好。來,我另外再提到一個。日本2024年他們公布一個觀光政策的白皮書。"},{"start":3613.095,"end":3639.957,"text":"他們提出2025年消費擴大目標就是要藉由提高旅遊的品質及附加價值使入境的旅客就是訪日的外國人他們每人的平均消費額要提高到20萬日圓就是大概1300美元讓我們羨慕死了1300美元台灣的狀況是什麼疫情前後的平均消費"},{"start":3641.138,"end":3656.776,"text":"是下降的趨勢2019年國際旅客來台平均消費195美元我們希望看能不能突破200美元後來2023國際旅客來台灣下降到每日平均只有180.67美元來台灣"},{"start":3661.454,"end":3682.402,"text":"例如開箱越來越久部長你要怎麼做?報告委員在112年我們的這個來台的消費差不多是2700億左右在今年已經達到2826億不要用那種總數來蒙混社會大眾我講的是每日的這種消費部長我簡單問我們的日本他們有這種消費的擴大目標1300美元"},{"start":3689.841,"end":3718.401,"text":"阿你呢?報告委員這個部分台灣過去是沒有設定這樣子的目標啦消費的目標沒有設定有設定的是人數的目標但委員提醒這一點是你要設計沒有目標你在設什麼啦對因為過去沒有設定你作為一個觀光署作為一個交通部你對一個國際旅客來台灣你對他們來台灣消費而且消費我們自己也有統計阿是下滑的趨勢阿然後你現在說我們沒有設目標所以比較安心"},{"start":3719.802,"end":3745.505,"text":"這是不對的部長我知道委員您現在在說的這個設定目標日本有設定這樣的目標台灣過去沒有設定這樣的目標但未來應該要設定這樣的目標但是這個要給我們一些時間我們來計算一下我們跟經濟部一起來計算因為這個消費的目標不是光由觀光署算的出來要跟經濟部一起來對話觀光署跟交通部也不是昨天才成立然後現在說你們需要時間"},{"start":3746.997,"end":3767.171,"text":"部長,趕快,在預算審查的時候就要提出來,我會再問一次。另外,我們必須要建立友善的觀光產業,我們要強化培養地方的知識團體參與,地方的歷史文化或是地方的商店什麼等等,要必須讓他們來參與。"},{"start":3769.232,"end":3792.969,"text":"而要建立可持續性的這種觀光的模式也要強化人產的培訓強化數位的應用跟整合另外就是要強化交通的銜接及資訊的透明簡化提到交通部長我們必須要改善公共運輸我們也是觀光署自己公布的台灣觀光旅遊調查報告"},{"start":3795.112,"end":3819.802,"text":"國人旅遊自行駕車的在2019年是63.9然後到今年是提升到68.2自行駕車因為公共運輸不便利所以自己開車比較方便所以這也顯示說我們公共運輸在整合及搭乘的便利上都明顯的不足"},{"start":3820.925,"end":3842.137,"text":"來部長簡單說明一下是報告委員這個需要加強所以交通部一直在推行公共運輸的這個政策包含TPAS的部分但那個只有針對通勤我們也有延伸到了旅遊的部分但或許宣導不夠或者是路線不夠便利這個部分是需要加強部長都要提出明確的目標啦你榮耀號本來預計是12號"},{"start":3844.178,"end":3848.202,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":3864.156,"end":3877.145,"text":"以及相關的推動的程序以及相關的目標是這樣你才能逐步的去達成啊消費的擴大目標也是一樣啊我們現在不到200美元而且是衰退的日本是定在1300美元的你沒有目標"},{"start":3882.864,"end":3909.4,"text":"你怎麼去推動相關的觀光旅遊啊當一天和尚敲一天鐘這是普通的和尚當一天和尚被鐘撞一天這是比較悲劇性的和尚我來督促部長加油好謝謝委員好謝謝李坤哲委員那我們先確認一下義士路各位在場的委員對於這個義士路有沒有意見"},{"start":3911.721,"end":3927.954,"text":"好,沒有意見我們就亦事務確定。接下來有請許智傑委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我們請部長。好,陳部長。"},{"start":3939.292,"end":3957.875,"text":"部長我那個陳剛才李昆哲委員所提到的當一天和尚敲一天鐘這是基本的責任當一天和尚更要敲好一天鐘所以你那個鐘事實上就是說要怎麼樣把鐘敲得更好"},{"start":3958.922,"end":3985.355,"text":"我想這個是我們每一個人盡自己的責任要把它做最好的表現所以我是希望說我們的很多公務員的思想要慢慢的再去提升就是要敲好一天鐘而不是敲一天鐘而已好那我再請教一下部長現在雙城論壇有一個訴求就是說他們是不是上海的"},{"start":3986.533,"end":3999.779,"text":"入團可以開放到台灣來。那我們台灣其實很早很早很早就已經開放了嘛對不對?所以台灣開放我們台灣人到中國去旅遊的那個現在狀況怎麼樣?"},{"start":4001.159,"end":4026.645,"text":"報告委員目前應該是200多萬人吧,到中國旅遊的應該超過200多萬人。只是我們從3月開始開放。台灣到中國的旅遊其實都一向沒有限制,所以台灣人民要到中國去旅遊其實是相當自由的。對,所以你看我們是從3月開放,以前王國才還在當部長的時候,王國才部長那時候是說本來是要3月開放到6月。是。"},{"start":4027.659,"end":4042.805,"text":"然後6月之後事實上我們也沒有停嗎?所以也就是說我們交通部的角度、觀光署的角度是到現在一直都是開放的嗎?"},{"start":4044.652,"end":4064.725,"text":"呃有規劃的啦齁6月以前有規劃的其實都讓他們繼續再走對那我所知道到現在為止團科應該都還在對所以其實我就講說我們台灣對於中國的善意事實上我們已經有十組的善意是就等他們對等嘛是好那國民黨一直在講說我們貿易逆差"},{"start":4066.616,"end":4096.227,"text":"那你中國一直不開放,現在只在考慮上海是不是可以過來,坦白講那真的只是一點小會啦,不足掛詞啦,那你要的話你就全部都開放嘛,跟台灣一樣對等嘛,所以我想呼籲國民黨的藍白色的委員,啊你一直在講台灣,我們台灣已經釋出善意,啊現在中國不釋出善意,怎麼沒有聽到國民黨藍白的委員在罵中國呢?"},{"start":4098.22,"end":4114.749,"text":"每一次都只會對自己家人大小聲對外面的人就不敢吭聲所以其實我是覺得非常的沉痛我們也希望說政治歸政治經濟歸經濟但是呢你們不要看到中國就腳軟"},{"start":4117.353,"end":4138.894,"text":"所以這個是我希望說今天你們如果要呼籲的話就一起嘛你不要只是上海團嘛你就一起嘛全國都一樣嘛全中國都一樣嘛跟台灣對等嘛所以大家沒有看到台灣的善意只會對台灣罵來罵去我是覺得這個是藍白最大的問題所以我也在這邊很沉重的呼籲啦"},{"start":4141.186,"end":4166.77,"text":"好那那個再請教一下我們那個2024觀光產業數位博覽會那個部長去那邊看了覺得那個AI對我們觀光有沒有很大的幫助我相信數位有很大幫助包含說因為現在在缺工啦所以AI跟智慧化其實可以讓我們需要的人力可以減少對於旅宿業一定會有幫助所以這個除了在台北辦有沒有機會移市高雄"},{"start":4167.57,"end":4194.291,"text":"我們在台北辦的成效還蠻好的那其實去看的人也蠻多的那沒合到的也蠻多的沒合到的業者也蠻多那我有聽到說委員在指教說希望南部可以辦我們現在也正在評估因為我一直都在關注台北的活動跟高雄活動的差距那是不是以後我們每一次的在規劃活動的時候都能夠全國思考"},{"start":4195.626,"end":4203.921,"text":"而不是只是留在台北。當然台北發出第一炮我們是可以接受啦。但是第二炮總是到高雄來了吧。"},{"start":4205.063,"end":4233.388,"text":"好,那這個是不是請部長跟署長可以規劃?好,報告委員,這個我們已經有在規劃。委員,由此較這一點,我們就會往,對,臺北我們還是繼續啦。當然當然。但是在高雄我們在思考說要不要再辦第二場,那這個部分我們來盤點一下預算。所以一定要盡快思考,不是只是再思考。好。好,那再來就是說,其實剛剛那一頁先留著,那個,這個我們觀光署是不是有主動?"},{"start":4234.71,"end":4248.904,"text":"就對於旅遊又理數,遊樂又等。其實我曾經跟他們講說你們旅遊業或商圈,你們如果有希望用AI的角度來做思考,那我們台北這裡既然有一些經驗,"},{"start":4250.697,"end":4274.823,"text":"那是不是可以比如說到我們高雄找我們的商圈找我們的旅遊旅宿業做一個座談會或者是類似AI方面的技術的知識的傳遞然後讓基本上的店家旅遊旅宿業等他們可以知道說喔原來我可以這麼用"},{"start":4276.964,"end":4299.791,"text":"因為這些東西如果你沒有展覽沒有去親自去指導他們可能還不知道我可以如何去把AI應用進來所以這個know-how其實是很重要的所以是不是請觀光署也有機會規劃就是說我針對這樣子的旅遊旅宿業者我如何也可以有AI的應用到你們的產業裡面去幫助你們"},{"start":4302.239,"end":4328.442,"text":"那這個是不是你博覽會可能是針對所有的那個店家民營業者或者是人民都可以去看嘛那我針對店家的商店業的旅遊旅宿業的需求我直接去跟他們面對面去告訴他們這樣子一個好的訊息這個是不是可以可行是也許這樣子會幫助他們會更快"},{"start":4329.022,"end":4351.695,"text":"也需要,因為這叫做分享會,或者是一個研討的方式交流,那這個也是一個...我不知道台北有沒有要這樣子辦了啦。我們是有持續在辦,那這一次的那個等於是數位的博覽會是更是擴大,那剛剛委員所指教的部分,部長也有特別提示啦,我們會以南部"},{"start":4352.515,"end":4376.472,"text":"南部的期限式的角度來看能夠我希望能夠盡快就是說我也可以跟南部的旅遊旅宿業者講現在那個人家觀光署要來辦AI的那個知識的或者是AI的技術的應用的一個分享產學合作很重要是不是可以盡快做這種規劃其實讓他們盡快能用現在就是如剛剛部長所提的人力缺乏嘛"},{"start":4377.153,"end":4378.796,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":4388.154,"end":4388.294,"text":"好,那,"},{"start":4412.238,"end":4421.082,"text":"這個之外是不是其實我一直去拜訪很多的航空公司之外我有去拜訪泰國跟沖繩他們的觀光局"},{"start":4424.13,"end":4449.317,"text":"市長他們做的時候他們除了怎麼樣去吸引台灣旅客去他們國家而不是他們國家就帶我們台灣來是台灣旅客去他們國家那當然就是說我們觀光署設定了這麼多的推廣中心希望就是從各個國家的旅客到台灣來這個是我們觀光署去最主要的目的嘛那航線是不是可以一併思考"},{"start":4450.444,"end":4476.927,"text":"你沒有航線你就想要來都沒辦法來啊,不然就要拔刷過而已,拔過來放回去。所以你看印尼、雅加達在我們高雄的立場,我們高雄、南台灣到東南亞的人口數我想說不亞於北台灣啦。所以光是你可以去做調查,自從印尼、雅加達從南部去的可能不會比北部的少,但是呢我都要拔刷過而已。"},{"start":4478.211,"end":4485.16,"text":"所以這個航線如果說有機會高雄直接到雅加達我不知道這個觀光署有沒有在努力"},{"start":4486.748,"end":4512.163,"text":"報告委員,我們其實把高雄機場設定為整個新南向最重要的機場,那所以其實往東南亞的部分其實民航局要來努力,那當然觀光署也會針對這方面來努力,針對航線的部分,針對新南向的方向,我們一定會來努力爭取給高雄機場。總部長你還沒來之前,我這件事至少講了半年以上了,那不知道有沒有進度?"},{"start":4514.407,"end":4534.522,"text":"報告委員其實民航局一直在爭取要給高雄的這個機場可以更多的航線尤其是往東南亞的方向那這個跟航權的談判其實有一點關係所以這個部分還在進行我希望就是部長能夠再請民航局辛苦一點民航局很認真我知道觀光署也很認真但我告訴部長一個數據可能你會覺得很訝異"},{"start":4535.902,"end":4536.022,"text":"是,是。"},{"start":4549.492,"end":4568.667,"text":"你會聽到覺得很誇張對不對?所以我們的航線跟航量還要再增加啦。不是,停機品的,我光是停機品的問題。是是。部長可以去了解一下,請局長再跟你講解一下。好。啊就是停機品的問題,這人飛機要來,航空公司要來,沒有停機品給他們。是是。啊停機品現在要到40個,只有停20個,通貨純的。"},{"start":4571.733,"end":4595.418,"text":"有的是就是他們之間的約的問題或調配的問題。但是現在有十幾個差不多都經常都沒用到這樣啦。這個我想部長可能不見得清楚,但是請民航局長跟你說明一下。這個問題如果不解決,我要上這航班都有困難啦。所以這個也是個嚴重的問題。那也就是說高雄機場,我再舉個例子。遠東航空以前有飛機對不對?"},{"start":4597.871,"end":4623.256,"text":"在台北停了,停機坪停了一架,在高雄停了一架,現在台北那一架已經移走了,移走好久了,高雄那一架還停在那裡站位置,這太細了啦,但是部長你可能不清楚啦,但是我就說,高雄跟台北,高雄我們的公務員心態,那台飛機不敢動就是不敢動啦,啊英文在那站位啦,啊白人要用沒辦法用啦,"},{"start":4625.089,"end":4649.103,"text":"所以這個部分雖然比較細,希望說部長了解一下,請他們要做妥適的處理。看要怎麼解決,我們來想辦法解決。最後一件,給我30秒的時間,我簡單的要求一下,那個郵政博物館,那個董事長也知道,跟部長也知道一下就好,我是簡單的要求,就是說,台北分館跟高雄館從12月17日起,"},{"start":4653.115,"end":4679.586,"text":"禮拜六、禮拜天、國定假日、連續假期通通休館。現在是怎樣?報告委員其實我自己看了也覺得不太合理,所以我也有拜託王董事長齁,是不是在公司裡面要去做調整。你假日至少讓孩子有機會去看一天嘛。假日要啦要啦。假日通通休館。我的孩子們想要去都沒有機會啦,大家都休館快要去,現在休館通通休館。"},{"start":4680.806,"end":4703.779,"text":"這個部分我想希望說部長跟董事長這個做一個調整好不好現在大概跟部長討論就是朝禮拜一休館其他因應的時間來調整這樣沒關係你看怎麼調我沒有說一定要怎麼調但是我不能允許的就是所有的假日通通休館這個我不能接受是不是看怎麼調一下自己你們內部可以做調整好謝謝"},{"start":4708.117,"end":4734.84,"text":"好,謝謝許委員。接下來有請林國成委員發言。好,謝謝主席。請陳部長、陳部長、周署長、周署長。好,部長、署長。"},{"start":4736.818,"end":4751.783,"text":"剛才我們許智傑我們未來的市長說你們都很認真我認為你們一點都不認真不但不認真還在議事殿堂說謊話我請問一下你們現在大陸對等的問題你們進團令解了沒有"},{"start":4763.507,"end":4765.788,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質。"},{"start":4785.082,"end":4805.854,"text":"藍白議員為了觀光我也幾次跟部長跟署長建議觀光不能有政治你管他幹什麼你來消費我就歡迎所以這個部分所以你的問題禁團令都沒有所以我跟你講我今天坦白講"},{"start":4807.781,"end":4832.452,"text":"談到藍白這跟藍白有什麼關係這個政策是你們在制定我們只是建議盡快這種觀光本來就是對等那我問你啊那你說對等兩個字我請問一下日本來台灣多少人我們去日本多少人那也不對等嘛但是報告委員日本沒有限制他們的國民來台灣旅遊"},{"start":4834.213,"end":4852.693,"text":"為什麼我們禁團令不能解呢?中國目前有禁止他們的民眾來台灣旅遊。人家說上海要來觀光,請問一下這有什麼不好呢?所以不要什麼東西都是藍白,如果是這樣的話觀光就不會蓬勃發展嘛,這種東西很簡單。"},{"start":4855.456,"end":4874.289,"text":"政策我們尊重但是適可而止的禁止來達到對等我贊成我贊成不要我也反對啊我到任何一個地方我都反對對岸一大七小的政策這個我到哪邊我都反對啊"},{"start":4875.129,"end":4894.785,"text":"我跟你講我們是小兒美國家我們要談對等我同意但是不要動不動就說我們南白好像這個進團是我們南白所定的不能這樣這對我們所有的立法委員都不公平我們立法委員是政策制定由政府來做"},{"start":4895.265,"end":4916.578,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4916.792,"end":4931.66,"text":"但是我還是要建議觀光要有多元化到現在我們觀光的政策完完全全都是停頓自然而生存那種心態是不對的"},{"start":4933.195,"end":4955.441,"text":"觀光的東西當然要跟交通連結這一點我是很同意因為我認為不管任何人執政觀光跟交通是要連結的所以我還是真的蠻希望但是有一點觀光的安全也是很重要安全也是很重要所以在這裡我要特別這個圖片"},{"start":4958.417,"end":4969.751,"text":"這個看一下來署長你看一下這個部長也剛來不久請問一下這個在阿里山這件事情報紙刊登之後"},{"start":4970.854,"end":4985.88,"text":"你們才開始處理我請問一下你們現在處理的怎麼可以把所有的觀光客帶在這個鐵路裡面在那邊玩耍在那邊做這些動作我請問部長請問署長你們現在"},{"start":4989.481,"end":5004.854,"text":"觀光署如何處理這個旅行社?如何處理?報告委員這個齁他沒有注意到旅客的安全這個對旅行社一定會做開罰除了旅行社之外對於帶團的現場人員也應該要做開罰這個部分我是不是請署長來回答"},{"start":5006.496,"end":5029.875,"text":"這件事情有兩個層面一個是鐵路法所以剛剛也跟林業署的華信署長也交換過意見他們就用鐵路法直接開法第二個是我們因為是帶團所以旅行社的部分我們就最重是五萬那麼帶團人員最重是一萬五所以我們人跟旅行社業者都開法是"},{"start":5030.535,"end":5034.817,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":5055.647,"end":5080.376,"text":"這個我們把問題民意代表就把問題點出來如何上後如何解決當然要你們主管機關去做我覺得這個是萬萬不可取得己動怎麼可以把所有旅客帶到那個危險的地方更何況是違規的地方這個是不對的因為導遊掌握到整個這些安全跟舒適"},{"start":5081.716,"end":5088.658,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並"},{"start":5110.723,"end":5125.312,"text":"包括上次署長都是什麼老思想從來沒有改變從來沒有替百姓從來沒有替觀光政策去做過很多努力這點我特別跟部長投訴一下"},{"start":5126.554,"end":5145.881,"text":"另外一個大家都知道阿里山真的是世界文明的地方當然因為觀光的問題主管單位很多但是不管怎麼樣觀光署一定要去做到這些所以安全也很重要來"},{"start":5147.481,"end":5169.991,"text":"阿里山這裡面,也就是阿里山的三美村的建到段列,到現在修了沒有?報告委員這個是鄉管的啦。鄉公所。鄉公所。要督促啦。對,我們也跟那個就像委員提示的就是我們跟文化觀光局也"},{"start":5170.931,"end":5174.652,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":5190.678,"end":5211.323,"text":"就一定是有危急的所以這個部分因為我們觀光署本來不是就只要做觀光的發展嗎那安全第一個沒有辦法安全請問未來如何發展所以這點部長我還是拜託你要督促觀光署一下尤其"},{"start":5212.463,"end":5234.599,"text":"我常跟私底下去做考察的時候我都跟他們建議我說我們要多元化建議嘛有時候這麼好的場地你可以辦辦年輕人的活動啊可以帆船的帆船啊可以賽車的賽車啊這種人這個觀光的政策只要一致定你說要不要去編列預算不一定喔"},{"start":5235.936,"end":5236.637,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":5258.619,"end":5283.312,"text":"為老百姓做事情真的要動一點頭腦要動一點頭腦所以這個部分我還是要拜託那最後剛才我們同仁在提的也就是博物館這個事這個要列入觀光的一種啦不要禮拜六禮拜天人家是在休閒人家要去看結果你不讓人家看這點我還要拜託我們王董事長啊我說實在的"},{"start":5283.652,"end":5286.194,"text":"我還是建議我蠻贊同就是禮拜六禮拜天真的不要說不開館這一點我還是要建議一下好不好部長所以這個我要拜託你"},{"start":5307.927,"end":5321.452,"text":"要談觀光。第一個,你們政策的制定,要把它制定好。第二個,要有多元化跟安全的管理,這很重要的啦。好不好?保留。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林委員。接下來有請林俊憲委員發言。"},{"start":5337.24,"end":5363.933,"text":"謝謝主席。本席要請我們交通部陳部長。陳部長。我們觀光署周署長。周署長。委員好。部長好。部長現在在雙城論壇上海副市長到台灣來了。是。他說在雙城論壇上他宣布要推動什麼上海路客團來台灣。是。"},{"start":5365.822,"end":5389.71,"text":"所以那到底誰禁止來?很清楚啦,他自己承認他禁止啦,所以他才要推動開放啊。沒錯啊。對不對?如果中國沒有禁止,那上海副市長為什麼說他要推動開放旅客團來台灣?是。那我再請教部長,中國禁止旅客團來台灣嗎?是不是這樣?中國有禁止,有。那禁止他們團客不能過來嗎?對,他們團客不能過來,沒有錯。"},{"start":5395.185,"end":5423.172,"text":"那假設有假設他們有自由行的人那中國政府允許他們來台灣嗎?報告委員他們自由行的部分除了專案之外也是不允許的所以他們現在是團客跟自由行都不允許他們的國民來到台灣所以這個你要講清楚啊所以中國政府不允許他們的團客和自由行的到台灣來旅遊是不是這樣?沒有錯沒有錯嘛好那台灣的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":5424.264,"end":5436.546,"text":"我們其實對於觀光客我們都是歡迎,如果是有序的觀光我們都是非常的歡迎。台灣其實跟日本也是觀光逆差,台灣人喜歡到日本去,"},{"start":5438.459,"end":5455.676,"text":"但至少兩邊都是互相開放。是,沒有錯。這個很重要。日本並沒有禁止他們的國民,無論是參加旅遊團或者是自由行來到台灣,他們是相當開放的。日本也沒有禁止日本人到台灣來觀光。沒有,沒有,完全沒有。其實任何國家開放觀光都應該這樣子,都應該互相開放。"},{"start":5457.376,"end":5481.143,"text":"為什麼現在國內很多的包括旅遊工會啦、旅遊業者啦都認為、都誤解是我們禁止陸客來?你知不知道?報告委員齁。有很多人來找我們陳情。我說你、我就跟他們講你搞錯對象了吧。這個應該是去呼籲北京要開放。你應該要請中國政府開放。"},{"start":5482.365,"end":5510.128,"text":"讓他們的團客甚至自由行的客人可以到台灣來你不是來要求我們要開放嗎?是不是這樣?是,報告委員我也一直在拜託我們的觀光業者或者是相關的工協會可以跟著我們一起來呼籲中國方面可以解除對於觀光上面政治的這個干擾跟政治上面的限制再比較一下嘛今年入客來台灣現在大概32萬人那台灣"},{"start":5511.806,"end":5534.401,"text":"到中國旅遊的現在大概有230萬,所以是哪一邊限制這個很清楚嘛,是不是?現在去的非常多來的非常少。中國十幾億人怎麼可能只有三十幾萬人來台灣,他們幾乎都禁止了,所以現在是禁止,好啊,不管怎麼樣啦,那現在兩邊有沒有在談?"},{"start":5536.537,"end":5550.845,"text":"兩邊有沒有在談開放?這個部分其實不需要談,開放就是開放。像我們現在自由行的旅客可以過去,我們也不需要跟他談,我們自己就是開放。但是所謂的他們開放會有一些徵兆。"},{"start":5552.199,"end":5552.799,"text":"再來再請教一下"},{"start":5584.6,"end":5612.558,"text":"現在我記得我幾年前有要求交通部要去注意一下現在很多人出國旅遊都會訂房了對不對都會透過網站去訂房對但在網路上你訂的房的旅館啦或者民宿啦其實是政府是沒有辦法消費者也沒有辦法去分別到那這個民宿或者旅館你訂的是不是合法的"},{"start":5613.672,"end":5632.972,"text":"市長民眾大概不知道但政府都會知道。會知道嗎?政府都會知道。那知道為什麼讓非法的還在網上?報告委員其實這個是地方政府要去查核但我們有跟他們配合到目前為止今年到目前為止查了才罰了一千三百多我講的是在罰了一億多我講的是在網站上面啊對對對"},{"start":5634.793,"end":5662.059,"text":"在網站上面我我最早提出質詢是五年前我說因為啊你非法的旅宿業者啊第一個消費者權益也沒有保障萬一發生消費糾紛怎麼辦當時的交通部說他會道德勸說啦這些訂房的網站不要來刊登這些非法的旅宿業者"},{"start":5663.376,"end":5665.318,"text":"然後交通部當時說他們會去想辦法解決這個問題。"},{"start":5669.588,"end":5695.39,"text":"四、五年到現在,請問還是一樣道德勸說嗎?委員所關心的應該分兩個,一個叫我們叫境內,一個叫境外。境外的部分比如說Airbnb,境內。你說的是網站是什麼樣的網站。境內的部分我們都是直接查處。22個縣市政府他們都有表達說他預算有限,什麼人力有限,我們也"},{"start":5696.391,"end":5696.891,"text":"其實你應該要要求嘛。"},{"start":5719.077,"end":5732.341,"text":"你如果要到他的網站上,去看的房,你要有license,你要有營業登記才可以上。所以這些網站不可以為了賺錢,來者不分青紅皂白,一點管理也沒有。難道觀光署有沒有什麼做法?"},{"start":5747.672,"end":5769.979,"text":"針對境外的部分,我們是跟訴發部有保持聯繫了。聯繫了好幾年,還是在聯繫?聯繫中?沒有沒有,有幾個具體的做法。但是最重要的還是境內啦。境外的部分,因為訴發部他們也覺得有些在法令上還在談。網站上的刊登廣告,地方政府沒有辦法啦。"},{"start":5770.379,"end":5793.268,"text":"但地方政府他會去,我就用台,還有一些是真的是消費者啦,要特別注意,我都有license上去,我用市政府查獲的,台北市政府查獲的非法的旅宿業者名單,去各大網站搜尋都找得到,他還是廣告還是在上面,那你叫消費者分辨,怎麼去分辨?"},{"start":5795.886,"end":5805.085,"text":"消費者通常都在網站上訂嘛你如果來源管理你非法的業者不應該在上面可以營業嘛這最簡單的嘛"},{"start":5808.513,"end":5810.034,"text":"我幫你查一下你的流量好不好?"},{"start":5840.744,"end":5854.588,"text":"你應該這個問題要解決吧你平台要下架非法旅宿啦好不好上架以前其實這些網路平台就應該審核你是不是有旅宿月的登記證號嘛"},{"start":5856.178,"end":5863.563,"text":"三個月內下架,其實這個下架只要一秒鐘就可以了,也給你,那時候都是交通部的承諾了,然後要求境外的訂房網站,"},{"start":5876.432,"end":5897.473,"text":"在台灣要設立公司要落地才可以開啟業務來符合消費者權利為了教育糾紛的一個保障全部也沒做啊我跟你講這些所謂的非法的旅宿啦尤其這網路上面有一些齁都是黃賭賭啦所以詐騙機房啦以前都查獲過啦這是一個治安的死角啦"},{"start":5899.853,"end":5915.241,"text":"請將觀光署處理下這個問題好不好?是是就持續再再好謝謝局長好謝謝部長好謝謝署長謝謝委員好謝謝主席好謝謝林委員接下來有請廖先祥委員發言好"},{"start":5927.328,"end":5932.051,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩我們的陳部長。好,陳部長、周署長。周署長。好,謝謝部長、謝謝署長。人生就是這麼的巧合啦。這個今天我們排交通的觀光,觀光的專題報告昨天上來就宣布要開放來台旅客嘛。那讓大家這個案子變成大家今天討論的一個重點啦。"},{"start":5955.169,"end":5982.315,"text":"對於兩岸的觀光現在雙方都沒有全面的開放嗎?那我們在討論兩岸的問題的時候您比較傾向於善意的堆疊還是惡意的螺旋?我們當然希望善意的堆疊。希望善意的堆疊嘛對不對?所以從過去從今年開始從福建開放他們的旅客到我們的離島觀光這件事情宣布之後也開始執行之後我們後續有任何的回應嗎?"},{"start":5984.502,"end":5993.124,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":6004.867,"end":6016.126,"text":"有嗎?有任何的回應嗎?報告委員目前台灣所有的人民要到中國去旅遊就是自由。團客的部分啦。我覺得說從那時候之後有沒有任何上面政策的改變?到現在都還有團客在中國旅遊。"},{"start":6016.912,"end":6040,"text":"到現在還有,就之前沒有取消掉的嘛,但現在不能新招了嘛。我是跟你討論政策。從福建開放到我們離島之後,我們這邊沒有任何政策上面的一個回應。好,現在上海的居民可以來到台灣來做觀光旅遊。那我想請教一下部長,您剛剛說您傾向於善意的堆疊而不是惡意的螺旋。"},{"start":6040.6,"end":6066.389,"text":"那善意的堆疊現在對岸又釋出了一個善意讓上海來台灣我們這邊會不會有任何政策上面的一個回應針對我們去道路的近環利的方面的調整?會不會有?中國方面有辦法這樣限制他們人民的出遊齁才能夠例如說開放就上海來台灣我不可能...我在詢問中華民國交通部長我不是詢問"},{"start":6067.429,"end":6086.081,"text":"中華人民共和國的倫理部長啦,你講在那邊幹嘛?我們當然希望善意的堆疊啦。對,那他們堆起來了,我們有沒有任何堆回去?有沒有任何在上面堆回去?還是認為要相當對等啦。好。我跟委員報告。好,所以他們的善意,我們並沒有任何的善意回去,你認為對等。那您認為的對等是怎樣?"},{"start":6086.681,"end":6115.068,"text":"我們的善意其實非常的多啦跟委員報告我們的自由行一直都是開放的他們的自由行到現在沒有開放第二點我們的團客其實3到5月是有開放的他們也沒有任何的這個又在翻舊帳了啦不是翻舊帳部長我們在講善意的堆疊就是你釋出善意我釋出善意而不是說你做了什麼你過去怎麼樣這叫惡意的螺旋好不好部長所以針對上海昨天宣布要來我們台灣之後"},{"start":6116.072,"end":6132.308,"text":"我們交通部會不會討論任何的一個政策上面的一個討論來去做相關的回應?會不會啦?目前以我們的理解啦,上海方面的副市長有這麼說了,但他們的文旅部還沒有做最後的決定。好,如果決定了,我們會不會有回應?他決定了我們就會來討論。會討論?會不會適度的放寬?我不會說要求你全面開放,"},{"start":6138.334,"end":6139.114,"text":"好,那就拜託部長,這個您說的話,"},{"start":6168.359,"end":6191.827,"text":"要做到我沒有叫你全面開放但是什麼樣子的一個善意的回應是讓你認為沒有上司兩岸對等的交流的前提下我們來做一個回應那我跟部長確認觀光的政策開放要不要解除進團令是您可以決定的嗎不是單就交通部的立場就可以決定並不是嗎並不是好那您的立場會是"},{"start":6193.703,"end":6194.406,"text":"我們會比較傾向歡迎。歡迎,不然我說不然,禁團令是我們過去的禁團令啦。"},{"start":6200.526,"end":6228.352,"text":"我們過去的淨團令,我們過去的淨團令其實如果中國可以整個開放的話我覺得我們就有那個條件而且要能夠確保我們的旅客的安全的狀況底下我們就會有那個條件可以開放所以您的就是說當然要不要逐步釋出算議剛剛部長有給承諾嘛會討論但要不要全面開放就是全面的解讀淨團令的前提是大陸方面也有沒有全面解除他們來台的旅客的限制"},{"start":6228.792,"end":6253.751,"text":"他們如果可以直接解除對我們來講就是一個很好的善意嘛,那這個部分其實就有對等,那第二對我們來講我們的旅客到中國去要確保他們的安全,因為我們到目前為止確實有看到有一些團客過去中國的時候有被留下來盤查滯留的狀況也是有發生的,我們很擔心我們的團客開放之後過去安全能不能確保,如果能確保當然我們可以朝正向的,好不好?"},{"start":6254.011,"end":6258.573,"text":"部長我知道政黨會有政黨的堅持,執政黨當然會有執政黨的堅持,那部長你們有沒有統計過因為今年這個大陸沒有開放旅客來台灣,那我們兩岸的觀光逆差"},{"start":6271.394,"end":6277.136,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":6297.741,"end":6321.464,"text":"對等的交流,全面開放,這一只是你們的論述嗎?但是我們是中華民國的官員,我們應該要優先考慮我們台灣觀光旅客的一個生計。對岸已經釋出3億了,人願意來了,我不知道他為什麼會挑上海,我在想有一個原因可能是上海的常住人口跟台灣的常住人口差不多,所以他這個可能是他選擇上海的一個原因,我猜的啦。"},{"start":6322.665,"end":6351.317,"text":"他認為人口一樣啦那你要不要這個做出善意善意的回應嗎但是對岸沒有的對岸的旅客沒有來台灣的時候受損最大的受損最大的是我們台灣的觀光業者不管是剛剛旅座業者還是我們的觀光業者我們一直在爭取對岸可以開放他們的禁令對所以說我們除了嘴巴講我們也必須要給他們一個適應的適度的善意的對點回應好不好這個就拜託部長"},{"start":6351.897,"end":6376.243,"text":"那針對剛剛有委員提到這個對日的觀光逆差啦我們大概一年的觀光逆差會到多少?可能以今年來說?目前來講的話我們去的比例確實是比較高對因為會突破出境的啦那入境的話目前大概預估大概140萬是"},{"start":6378.308,"end":6399.699,"text":"那產值的部分呢?對,產值的話要算,因為現在目前來講因為幣值啊在日本的因為幣值的關係所以在那邊的消費是比較方便對,所以我們要在最後再做統計。好吧,那我當然希望說現在日本跟我們這邊兩邊的觀光旅客是沒有任何的限制。那既然我們去了那麼多的"},{"start":6401.052,"end":6405.273,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":6422.108,"end":6438.326,"text":"三方面的我們的旅客一直過去他們這邊來的人數非常的少。好吧那最後問部長一個問題那在大陸禁止我們禁止他們的人民來到台灣的這部分的這段期間有沒有任何的旅團的申請觀光簽證"},{"start":6439.767,"end":6458.359,"text":"到跟我們台灣方面來申請有沒有任何的觀光簽證申請有專案的部分我們是有但是都是專案觀光目的事業主管機關如果是我們觀光的相關的業者的話那當然是觀光署來合是"},{"start":6459.139,"end":6484.262,"text":"那他們都是有那所有送的你們都有合嗎還是有部分沒合只要我們觀光署都有合只要是觀光的目的他們過來我們台灣的那有些需要簽證的有些參訪的話對對有些參訪我們觀光的部分都會合好謝謝那就麻煩部長剛剛一開始您講的3億的堆疊是比2億的螺旋提升更好那我希望不是嘴巴講而是實際的作為好不好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":6489.109,"end":6509.156,"text":"好,謝謝廖委員。好,做以下宣告,待會發言到我本人,魯明介委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘,接下來請陳素悅召委發言。好,謝謝主席,請主席,要請陳部長還有周署長。陳部長,周署長。"},{"start":6516.645,"end":6524.151,"text":"部長、署長早。今天就是針對我們觀光署還有觀光發展基金進行預算的詢問。本席在這邊先請教就是說我們觀光署掛牌剛好滿一年了。我有看到最近署長在掛牌滿一年的相關的慶祝活動。"},{"start":6542.264,"end":6546.728,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":6568.621,"end":6592.007,"text":"因為我看你這個媒體寫的是每年增加10億應該是那個媒體的新聞報導有有一點對他內容是有寫了未來4年內未來4年內他最後一段寫錯沒有因為我覺得說每年增加10億這個很可觀欸那不曉得我們要怎麼做所以我也特別去盤點了一下啦過去這幾年"},{"start":6594.348,"end":6600.334,"text":"我盤點了一下我們這幾年來就是有關這個觀光署在行銷推展費裡面的這個費用包括國際行銷的一個宣傳費從111年就是佔了這個51.89%的"},{"start":6609.222,"end":6614.705,"text":"國際宣傳費是12.92億,那112年、113年、114年就像表列的這樣子。那明年度就是114年我們就是編了17.94億,就是如同剛剛署長所說的嘛,大概增加2.5億這樣子的經費。那我們看到其實這樣的一個宣傳經費是蠻龐大的,所以我們也要去"},{"start":6636.195,"end":6650.512,"text":"我覺得我們都要去定期的做一個檢討說我們花了這麼多的一個宣傳費到底效果好不好有沒有花在這個刀口上我覺得這個我都要去好好的做一個檢討跟盤點"},{"start":6656.607,"end":6669.008,"text":"像我們觀光署啊就是這個影片就是說都會拍這個影片嘛做廣告那我不曉得說我們第一年來所拍的影片署長你有沒有覺得最成功的有沒有"},{"start":6670.368,"end":6693.319,"text":"我們目前主題式的宣傳的影片是最好,譬如說有些,譬如喜歡生態旅遊的或溯溪的,那他有一個主題式的,那他們就是那是等於是分眾,那我們這次也跟委員報告一下,我們那個3.0版的台灣品牌,我們接著有春夏秋冬四季,"},{"start":6694.439,"end":6719.946,"text":"它必須要一波一波一波的那剛剛的宣傳的費用裡面也包括我們駐地比如說我們明天會在菲律賓的馬尼拉設置我們的TTIC就台灣這個Taiwan Tourism Information Center那在那邊做這個駐地的這個宣傳大概我們平均來講那個效果會特別好等於是365天都在做宣傳服務的推廣"},{"start":6721.386,"end":6737.533,"text":"您有沒有去檢討一下你們拍的影片這個點閱率到底這個流量到底有多少?因為我們看到最近也有就是在網路上也有網友在丟一支影片這個是"},{"start":6738.533,"end":6750.745,"text":"一個台灣留學生自製的行銷台灣的影片結果網友他們評論說這個比官方製作的還吸引人然後他的我看他這個觀看的次數也達到182萬次所以我們做的會比這個還高嗎?有比這個還高嗎?"},{"start":6760.99,"end":6784.546,"text":"還有一些主題啦,宣傳影片還包括一些網紅,我們有網紅,譬如說我們曾經在日月潭拍那個影片的時候,那這個點閱率有500萬,那要一些故事的鋪陳,那我們通常來講是有好幾個層次,那委員特別提的黃小梅,她確實也是一個很在地的網紅,那我們也有跟她做一些合作。"},{"start":6786.627,"end":6803.1,"text":"其實目前就是說很多網紅他們可能會有針對日常的美食的或者是旅遊景點的各種不同的這樣子特色的一個網紅我們也應該可以善用這些網紅的一個流量然後打造地方深度的觀光的商機"},{"start":6804.161,"end":6805.803,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、交通部長陳世凱、交通部長陳世凱、交通部長陳世凱、"},{"start":6821.142,"end":6846.165,"text":"蓋東樹也爆紅了就是被稱為里多會樹也吸引很多人會去那邊打卡所以我覺得說這個網紅的這個宣傳的效果也是蠻有這個影響力的啦所以我覺得說其實這樣子的配合網紅的經費我想應該不會很高我覺得應該是就是說要多利用這樣子的一個流量來形象我們就是台灣的一些"},{"start":6846.944,"end":6865.647,"text":"警點及深度旅遊報告委員其實觀光署一直都有在做他們跟各國的網紅都有在做合作但我覺得委員今天的建議非常好我們是不是未來比例上我們比例上在地方的網紅也好各國的網紅幫我們推廣觀光的比例可以把它拉高一點"},{"start":6866.227,"end":6868.95,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":6885.407,"end":6885.447,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":6902.398,"end":6918.115,"text":"其實整個國際跟未來的一個趨勢就是減碳減碳這個議題也是非常的一個重要那曾經也有就是這個業者也有講過就是說未來這個"},{"start":6920.778,"end":6945.538,"text":"檢探會成為就是這個商務課他選擇的一個重要的一個條件所以其實就我們在吸引外國的觀光客來台灣的時候也有不同的客群嘛是一般的觀光客或者是商務課等等我想應該這個都有不同的一個客群那就這個商務課來說因為如果說我們台灣的旅宿業的這個檢探"},{"start":6947.439,"end":6969.337,"text":"就是說在沒有一個公告就是說在網站上他們沒有辦法提供這個探資訊的話可能會造成國外旅客來台灣的時候他們的一個選擇他們可能會去選擇比較低碳的城市可能就是新加坡、曼谷等等所以就這個政策來說請教部長您的看法、想法如何"},{"start":6969.817,"end":6995.958,"text":"報告委員其實這個減碳相當重要那我們的旅書業其實大家也都很努力我們在明年的時候應該一次性的備品大概就不會主動提供這個部分我們會來做那尤其是在觀光旅館的部分因為觀光署比較有辦法管轄是觀光旅館那會優先並且加強來做減少碳排那另外就是飲用水的部分最近環保環境部也有在提說這個塑膠瓶的這個"},{"start":6997.419,"end":7026.049,"text":"減速的政策那這個部分觀光署也會來配合來鼓勵我們的這個旅宿業者不要提供這個瓶裝式的礦泉水那這個部分也是會由這個觀光的旅館先來推廣是好那就是說我們已經有逐漸朝向就是說希望來禁止提供這個一次性的備品那我想這個應該也就是要有一個一個宣導然後一個階段性的一個實施那未來就是說在整個旅宿業的"},{"start":7026.909,"end":7033.102,"text":"則是網站上有關這個檢探的一個資訊的一個揭露我不曉得目前做的如何"},{"start":7034.051,"end":7056.943,"text":"報告委員其實在明年我們就是政策上面其實就強制性全面不提供所以這個部分其實就會照這樣的政策推廣下去那我想一般的旅客其實大家也會去適應也會開始適應就自己帶或者說變成說你必須要去跟旅宿業者要或者是要買才會有"},{"start":7058.024,"end":7087.313,"text":"我們有一個政策就是說我們最高可以補助10萬元希望能夠更新做綠色旅宿有補助了那另外就是說其實消費者他們也更關心的就是說如果不提供一次性的備品的話那在這個房價上是不是要降價才對不然的話就是說我其實目前國民的就是我們國內的民眾啊他們的感受就是說我們的這個旅館的費用太高了"},{"start":7088.073,"end":7097.782,"text":"如果住了那麼貴的飯店然後沒有一次性的備品那在這個價格上如果沒有給予優惠的話他們會可能寧可去國外旅遊"},{"start":7098.627,"end":7099.348,"text":"最近有一個就是"},{"start":7124.448,"end":7140.25,"text":"一個網友他在臉書上有分享就是說他的朋友去入住我們台北的這個希爾頓飯店的時候結果一打開這個電視啊連八台都是中國的這個頻道我想請問一下這個是合法的嗎"},{"start":7141.963,"end":7162.991,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們有加強宣導那民眾所說的這間飯店他那個八個頻道也都已經下架了都下架了都已經下架了是那我們應該就是說要求我們交通部還有觀光署這邊對於旅宿業者就是有關這個電視頻道的這個節目的提供應該要有就是"},{"start":7164.051,"end":7164.312,"text":"二、一、"},{"start":7174.38,"end":7196.643,"text":"我們也會通令給地方政府大家一起來宣導那也一起來管制說這個沒有得到台灣的主管單位允許的頻道不應該讓他上架是啊因為來到台灣然後結果打開電視看的是中國的節目那這樣子會讓外國旅客可能會混淆了到底到了哪一個國家了我們是民主自由的台灣"},{"start":7197.704,"end":7214.02,"text":"與中國極權專制是不一樣的一個國家所以我們希望在這部分我們交通部跟觀光署這邊應該要嚴格的去執行就是禁止飯店做這樣子的行為我們也會積極跟地方政府來溝通跟配合好謝謝好謝謝我們陳樹葉召委那現在請我們魯明哲召委"},{"start":7232.321,"end":7238.421,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我請我們交通部陳部長。陳部長。觀光署周署長。好,周署長。"},{"start":7243.649,"end":7243.769,"text":"五、二、零"},{"start":7274.469,"end":7276.63,"text":"兩岸之間我們是順差,而且順差大概一千多億的美金,"},{"start":7303.121,"end":7319.592,"text":"兩岸之間的貿易順差的話,其實台灣在整個世界來看,非常可能逆差。所以這個當然我們就沒有意見嘛。EGFA最好不要取消,這如果會表示好多了嘛。所以我在想,不見得每一件事都是我們談的樣樣樣,我們覺得"},{"start":7322.888,"end":7326.129,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":7347.824,"end":7349.205,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":7367.011,"end":7372.514,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":7384.639,"end":7401.935,"text":"我們的業者台灣也希望能夠賺錢啦好不好尤其觀光業者甚至有一些到民間的一些業者在過去早期的時候在有開放客來台的時間最高的時候啊差不多我們來台旅客的含量超過400萬啦"},{"start":7403.564,"end":7406.687,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":7423.662,"end":7444.46,"text":"上海團他們特別說願意開放上海的居民來台旅遊那你剛剛有說那你現在的是不是到底可不可以做到因為我們希望來台然後這邊花錢讓我們的產業賺錢這是我覺得觀光才的一個目標你的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":7444.94,"end":7444.96,"text":"好。"},{"start":7462.338,"end":7478.27,"text":"因為我們記憶沒錯的話金門馬祖也是中華民國的一部分吧所以金門馬祖已經開放了這個金馬開放福建4000萬人先行去座的旅遊啊那個署長請問一下當時金馬開放是誰宣布的"},{"start":7481.382,"end":7507.207,"text":"這是陸委會的權責不是陸委會宣布,我說對岸是誰宣布的嘛你們一直在計較上海市長、副市長宣布的我就請問一下,請問一下是誰宣布的,你還記得嗎?到最後9月21號公告是誰公告的啊?我回憶一下就是福建省公安廳發的公告嘛那你那時候為什麼講公安廳莫名其妙為什麼不是文旅部?拜託啦"},{"start":7508.087,"end":7511.51,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質。"},{"start":7526.644,"end":7555.575,"text":"那可是你再計較這個到底是因為當現在金馬現在開放他也沒有也不是文旅部啦所以我拜託宣布當你們實務的對接該怎麼對接我們真的是希望能夠展開啦報告教委在交通部跟觀光署的部分您這樣指教其實我覺得很合理就是說該對接的部分我們能做的範圍啦我們來對接看看有時候不是我們能對接的上啦但是我們能做的我們先來做做看"},{"start":7556.275,"end":7579.716,"text":"對你對接之後搞不好他是騙人嘛那騙人大家就講清楚了不要卡在這裡這麼難過嘛直接就去對接一下啦那我們希望在台灣觀光的一個產值能夠能夠把這個台灣有一些又去偏遠的地方啊不過是真的沒有辦法現在很多我們的人數啊很多的商務客他集中在都市他辦事為主"},{"start":7580.296,"end":7581.858,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":7596.065,"end":7599.75,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":7613.595,"end":7626.163,"text":"目前就金門縣啦金馬現在有開放嘛剛開始我想看到一些負面新聞說根本沒料來啦開放也是假的但是我們就是在兩個月9月27號說開放正式第一團來10月5號到12月9號為止差不多兩個月的時間"},{"start":7633.928,"end":7661.157,"text":"我們昨天跟金門縣政府拿到的一個最新的統計資料因為他們吞吐量又有限啦船就那麼多嘛所以也拜託你們是不是航港局能夠多開一點航班報告委員這個趙偉這個我們有在有在進行我知道我們只是在想說當年歸零的時刻到現在為止平均平均喔這將近兩個月多一點的時間金門縣就是大陸觀光客"},{"start":7661.837,"end":7665.018,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":7689.184,"end":7712.162,"text":"您做過發言人對其他的部會也多有認識是不是大家能夠成真心聚在一起討論一下這個議題啦看看能不能我們就接了因為反正金馬這個球也接了嘛也接了嘛是不是能夠這個球是不是大概多久能夠召開這樣的一個會議不過跟委員報告一下像馬祖平均的話"},{"start":7713.323,"end":7739.247,"text":"他應該平均每日約400人可是他現在平均每日不到100人雖然是開放但是在量很少我在講金門啊我在講金門那你們那個船班你們是要去研究一下那最後我想今天這個做結論所以我覺得我們現在問一下觀光署好不好你們現在因為我們現在我們一直在說這個有些"},{"start":7742,"end":7764.876,"text":"網紅去大陸不管是配合他們做旅遊的行銷城市的介紹等等也在台灣掀起了軒然大波我倒是沒有辦法判定誰對誰錯我沒有辦法判定但是我只是想說我們觀光署有沒有去找大陸的網紅來到底有沒有來去做我們台灣的不管是景點的宣傳台灣的美台灣的好有沒有做這樣的事"},{"start":7765.696,"end":7794.469,"text":"我們還是有做了。但是就是...我們是不是也是有統戰對岸的性質嗎?不是這樣講,我們總是要介紹台灣的美好的景點啊,然後也要把22個縣市推介出去啊,所以有些最基本的還是有的啊。所以這個算辦統戰啊?我們算辦統戰啊?我們當然是只就觀光談觀光啊,不會有...就是來...他的網紅來這裡回去會不會被法辦?因為拿了你政府的錢?"},{"start":7795.189,"end":7823.551,"text":"不過一樣我們倒過來這樣講嘛就是因為這是現在進行式啦公平講他拿了我們中華民國政府的錢然後回去他會被辦啦你要注意一下但我看到你每一年齁沒有今年今年到底辦了沒有齁邀請知名旅遊網紅合作計畫約人民幣13萬113年這個部分辦了沒有那就是台灣燈會有時候會有特定的沒有沒有這個錢花了沒有嘛找了沒有"},{"start":7824.867,"end":7829.529,"text":"執行了沒有?你們剛剛執行了嗎?有執行了嗎?那有請廈門的這個姓街的網紅跟張璇兩位網紅來幫忙,有吧?請廈門的這個旅遊達人陳誠來做深度介紹,這有做沒有?都做了嘛,所以那明年呢?明年一樣嘛,明年你們也編了"},{"start":7853.234,"end":7855.095,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":7869.66,"end":7874.623,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":7897.937,"end":7914.687,"text":"問一下中華郵政,抱歉抱歉,對不起,因為超過時間,不好意思。這個因為我們看到我們講本業啦,我知道你們這幾年因為你剛到任啦,我也不是說在講怪你啦,就是中華郵政我覺得有時候要面對一下,"},{"start":7915.467,"end":7939.435,"text":"有歸零思考的我知道你們比如說儲蓄甚至保險很努力啊去拉保險這個部分可是你中華郵政其實有個本業啦就是郵務業務郵務你們的稅購盡力啊我們就算了這6年從2019年開始是一路下滑一路下滑到今年到今年2024年還沒過完啦現在已經負14.1億啊"},{"start":7945.27,"end":7961.765,"text":"你們在本月到最後發生什麼事情啊?你有去研究嗎?各位報告,的確它是從去年到今年,郵務面臨很大的虧損。那主要是在除了郵件以外,是讓它包裹跟快捷也下降。"},{"start":7962.729,"end":7988.959,"text":"大概我從8月21號上任以後已經針對這個部分包括我們在數位化的介面還有包括我們舊客戶跟新客戶的拜訪都積極進行我想就是提高品質把客人找回來這是他們最重要的工作王董事長真的啦要拜託你啦因為你有你是整面全面的觀念你去注入到中華郵政真的啦不要以不變"},{"start":7989.599,"end":8010.213,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8012.223,"end":8028.314,"text":"國際包裹減少了10.5、自轉油量減少了9.3。他那個統計報告各行各業把新竹物流每個都在買車每個都在發財財海運的快遞每一個都在增班只有我們以不變應萬變的中華郵政我跟你講你們現在面對的對手是什麼樣"},{"start":8032.496,"end":8034.657,"text":"包括你剛才談到蝦皮的電對電,我們現在是把我們的愛油箱也要轉成電對電的一個服務。"},{"start":8054.863,"end":8072.243,"text":"我跟委員報告最近他們這幾個月開始這個衰退已經開始減緩了那我是期待是在明年的七月包括我們的數位化的這些民眾的服務做好以後明年七月希望我給他們目標就明年開始止跌回升"},{"start":8073.405,"end":8084.004,"text":"現在有很多比較新的一些作為或是過去在中華郵政比較消極的跟客戶的關係這部分我都在加強中我想說就以這樣目標我們來進行"},{"start":8085.309,"end":8107.592,"text":"拜託你啊,現在兩岸的那個網購啊,電郵的一個部分啊,其實主要的包裹啊,大概80%到90%來自大陸,來自大陸,可是你們在這邊的包裹業務啊,我看順豐快遞一些民間業者啊,我跟你講你們,我覺得你們這一部分啊,是不是從你重新思考,因為我知道你們好像整個業務只交給某一個承辦人,"},{"start":8109.648,"end":8117.793,"text":"帶了30年40年的一個觀念拜託重新去哪裡有生意去哪裡抓這是我的建議好不好好謝謝謝謝趙偉好謝謝我們魯明哲、趙偉那依照趙偉嚴定時間休息10分鐘"},{"start":8144.682,"end":8158.571,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":8160.394,"end":8186.243,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":8187.363,"end":8193.769,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":8203.116,"end":8227.982,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":8232.163,"end":8250.18,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":8253.041,"end":8277.017,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":8277.717,"end":8300.847,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":8301.307,"end":8304.989,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質。"},{"start":8317.994,"end":8325.597,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":8343.823,"end":8367.16,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":8367.941,"end":8390.609,"text":"兩、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、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911.747,"end":8917.352,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":8941.963,"end":8946.404,"text":"所以推展費不屬於觀光行銷、不屬於廣告行銷費嗎?來來我們看看看你們之前這個裡面自己的項目來往上演再往上演"},{"start":8963.669,"end":8966.872,"text":"宣傳行銷計劃、廣告這些都是你們的標案喔!我是從你們的網頁上面標下來、刷下來的資料喔!這些竟然不屬於文宣的費用嗎?這不應該要登載嗎?跟委員報告一下,我是交通部會計處的張處長。"},{"start":8979.502,"end":9008.378,"text":"那因為這個行政院當時在對這個62條之一的規定的時候就有分兩類一個是所謂的政令宣導完全是符合剛剛委員講的那個部分另外一個是有關業務的宣導那業務宣導就不是政令宣導那我自己本身研究這個議題我也教這個他只是說你們可以不用標示為廣告但是不是說你們不可以你們不需要把這些細項要登載在公開資訊網站上跟委員報告"},{"start":9009.178,"end":9034.04,"text":"因為這個一開始的定義它就不是政令宣導它是業務宣導因為我們在做觀光的在做推廣業務它本來就好像在賣東西一樣它需要做一些行銷那些行銷我告訴你司法院有沒有要做業務宣導它也要做業務宣導你只要業務宣導你要委辦給公務機關全部都是政令宣導基金就會有兩類因為基金它叫作業型它本身有作業運作跟"},{"start":9035.842,"end":9061.815,"text":"一般公務機關是不一樣,我們公務機關全部都是要證明宣導所以你現在講說這些錢從哪裡來的這個是基金,觀光發展基金觀光發展基金的經費,所以這些經費都不需要登載嗎我告訴你我認為說不需要依照證明宣導的部分去登載那他剛剛署長已經講了,他依照採購法該公告的他就公告"},{"start":9063.976,"end":9065.717,"text":"所以我們是完全符合法律﹖所以我們是完全符合法律﹖所以我們是完全符合法律﹖"},{"start":9092.489,"end":9093.65,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":9115.762,"end":9138.206,"text":"本國的旅行業者組團可不可以組大陸團的這件事情你們就是違法我在不止一次的在公開場合裡面甚至質詢行政院院長的時候我就有講了你們觀光發展觀光條例可以這樣解釋嗎這些旅行業者帶團去是有損害國家利益嗎損害什麼國家利益你們講清楚請你們現在回答這個法令上面"},{"start":9142.088,"end":9170.323,"text":"這個跟委員報告,我們在跟旅行業、旅館業、遊樂區業在這個按照發展觀光條例的執行來講是,這件事情本來就是不對等的方式在做處理,而且我們確實也被罰查。我告訴你好,署長您要說不對等的方式,我們現在跟大陸有哪一項事情你認為是對等的?也確實對……啊?有哪一件事情你覺得是對等的嗎?我們現在台灣跟大陸的關係,你認為有哪一件事情是對等的?"},{"start":9172.999,"end":9185.967,"text":"因為你們損害國家利益可以這樣講因為他們來的我們去的人都他們來的人少所以這叫不對等所以這叫我們去就叫有損害國家利益是這樣的意思嗎?不是算人數的"},{"start":9187.196,"end":9211.604,"text":"好那不是算人數算什麼請部部長您您告訴我什麼叫有所害國家國家利益我們現在自由行到中國去旅遊我們的國民都相當的自由行自由行是自由行我現在講的是對於觀光旅館業就是對於觀光旅館業這是他們涉及他們業者的生存的問題對不對而且呢就是在參加台灣的團然後出去觀光旅館業應該是希望他們的旅客來不是希望我們的旅客去"},{"start":9212.827,"end":9226.36,"text":"我們台灣的你認為我們台灣的旅行業不需要賺台灣自己同胞的錢嗎?我們的旅宿業者當然是希望他們的旅客可以來台灣住飯店啊。我現在要講的是觀光業就是包含這是旅行業者"},{"start":9228.186,"end":9230.969,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":9248.971,"end":9266.718,"text":"在台灣地區就是兩岸人民關係條例裡面有講啊如果說是你限制人民的這個行動自由到大陸對岸去或是基於有什麼樣的一個狀況這是必須要經過立法院的議決才可以去限制台灣地區人民進入大陸地區的"},{"start":9268.803,"end":9280.408,"text":"你們現在有做這樣的事情嗎?是用什麼要突發狀況嗎?是用什麼影響到做那裡?你沒有經過立法院的議決嗎?中華民國的人民沒有任何一個人目前沒有任何一個人要去自由行是不行的。"},{"start":9283.227,"end":9301.564,"text":"我這個我告訴你們你們實在太限說好那旅行業者組團去這難道不是限制旅行業者的營業自由嗎這不是這不是限制大家可以共同組團一起去大陸的自由嗎你們的作為就是違法我已經不止一次的講"},{"start":9302.865,"end":9306.168,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例講得很清楚,你任何的限制都必須經過立法院的議決。以上本席最後要求,觀光署你必須要將近四年來你們所有的廣告宣傳在國內國外城市只要是廣告宣傳案都要列表送給本席,而且要求你們必須要在網頁上資訊公開。"},{"start":9328.307,"end":9339.761,"text":"另外對於就是觀光客台灣的觀光旅行業者不能夠組團到大陸去觀光的這件事情請這個交通部要給我一個法制延續報告謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝翁委員接下來有請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":9369.136,"end":9382.323,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長陳部長觀光署周署長周署長委員好"},{"start":9383.717,"end":9403.11,"text":"部長我想今天早上我在辦公室已經聽到你多次表達在兩岸觀光上面基本的一個對等跟利益互惠原則的立場我是聽得很清楚但我是覺得大家不斷地要repeat這件事情"},{"start":9403.991,"end":9414.802,"text":"我覺得也有點奇怪,但是本席有一點可能要提醒你一下,中華民國沒有限制任何一個人到大陸地區旅行觀光經商,"},{"start":9417.042,"end":9434.489,"text":"但是你要講一下這個軍人不行啊對那個是我們特殊的規定我說我們講一般一般販子一般人對但反過來你要講到這個反而要提醒大家是台灣有一些人去中國很危險是譬如說王逸川就很危險"},{"start":9436.704,"end":9464.334,"text":"當然本席比他更危險啦本席更危險因為我是認證的這個頑固台獨分子就我接見了我代表中華民國接見裴洛西這個議長來立法院這個訪問本席代表中華民國代表立法院接見我覺得很光榮但這樣的接見對方就叫做台獨頑固分子所以觀光署要提醒的一件事情是"},{"start":9465.464,"end":9487.562,"text":"有一種台獨就是他認為你是台獨你就是台獨這個不限於蔡其昌啊這個在台灣你的各行各業都有可能只要中國高興他願意他對你不爽他就把你列為台獨份子你就可能會被逮捕啊我覺得這個風險的提示是政府應該要做的"},{"start":9488.454,"end":9514.437,"text":"這不是威嚴聳聽阿對沒錯我想大家在媒體上看過太多的例子這些人也不一定是民進黨黨員這些人也不一定做過了什麼事情但是很奇怪的他被滯留很奇怪他被逮捕很多人甚至手機被盤查這個在台灣作為一個民主法治的國家我們都覺得這是侵犯人權這個是完全不能夠接受的不好意思對岸就是這個樣子"},{"start":9516.479,"end":9544.751,"text":"本席過去對觀光署的指證裡面其實我個人不會去阻擋什麼兩岸的什麼觀光往來啦但是本席過去也不斷的在提醒一件事情天上掉下來的禮物啊就只能那個叫機會財啊就天上掉下禮物來你不用什麼成本那你就去撿嘛你就要撿啊如果我們的旅宿業者面對"},{"start":9546.392,"end":9568.03,"text":"對岸天上掉下來的禮物你說我們堅持什麼不撿我覺得也太過啦天上掉下來的禮物就撿嘛但是啊千萬不要花成本去準備天上要掉下來的禮物啦不然你會很慘這個本席過去啊在2020年之前我在交通委員那麼久的時間我講過了N次了過去我講這個時候還有其他黨的委員說我們什麼危言聳聽"},{"start":9575.908,"end":9603.143,"text":"為什麼不是危言聳聽呢?因為全世界民主自由的國家所有的商務所有的觀光旅行的往來都建立在一個法制的基礎上而這個法制通常是讓人民有自由選擇的權利但不好意思我們隔壁對岸的中國他沒有這個問題他只要命令一下就限制了人民去哪一個國家所以那個國家都會因為"},{"start":9604.69,"end":9629.295,"text":"入客來而觀光一下子展現了前所未有的榮景但是你只要讓他不高興他就立刻說你的觀光就立刻崩潰不只台灣嘛你看過很多鄰近的國家都是這個問題所以呢我為什麼說如果我們沒有提示性的讓我們的觀光業者知道而花很多錢就像"},{"start":9631.204,"end":9648.006,"text":"疫情前我們那麼多人為了準備迎接入客的到來投入了那麼多的錢結果最後血本無歸我講這個完全沒有政黨立場我也沒有什麼意識形態我講這個純粹叫做債商言商"},{"start":9649.008,"end":9663.921,"text":"而觀光署對於觀光旅宿業者該有的提醒,該讓事情的本質展現商業的本質,跟所謂統戰的本質,背後有政治力可以主導一切的本質,如果要賺這種錢,賠就要拚錢。"},{"start":9667.421,"end":9668.722,"text":"但是風險在哪裡?政府要做好提示。"},{"start":9695.39,"end":9722.5,"text":"要過去我們從來沒有阻擋自由行你現在隨時刻你此刻就可以去買一張機票你就可以往就可以去中國沒有任何的阻礙但是呢政府要提醒的是去到那個地方現在的風險是什麼有一種風險叫做對方認為你是台獨的風險而你可能會被逮捕你可能會被拘禁你可能會被收身你可能你的手機會被檢查這個反而是政府應該要提醒的是"},{"start":9723.902,"end":9751.037,"text":"但是我也要替觀光業者講一句話我們在面對入客這種不穩定不確定政治掛帥的商業模式底下署長我還是老話一句啦這一年來我已經跟你提醒過很多次了怎麼樣對於其他啦就是你看像最近韓國的遊客變多了你看我們辦了一個12強的比賽在台灣你看"},{"start":9751.536,"end":9776.191,"text":"光大巨蛋周邊的旅宿房價都漲了兩成啊公不應求都漲了兩成我們可以台灣可以吸引到美日韓其他所謂我們認為他是民主國家他政治風險他商業風險很低的觀光客來到台灣他的消費能力可能也很好啊所以"},{"start":9777.27,"end":9786.312,"text":"觀光署怎麼去引導這些這些這些旅客我覺得這個才是台灣觀光要發展最重要的基礎跟命脈其實在這裡"},{"start":9787.469,"end":9812.586,"text":"部長你同意嗎?報告委員這個部分我們確實這一兩年都在努力這個方向所以我們到現在為止以今年來說我們北美的這個旅客北美來台灣的旅客已經超過這個疫情疫情之前的這個旅客也就是說我們在北美的開發旅客的部分其實是有成果的已經超越疫情之前那旅客的多元化也是最近一直在努力的一個方向沒錯"},{"start":9813.627,"end":9837.723,"text":"但是我覺得這個我還是不滿意啦因為數字齁我覺得台灣沒有千萬觀光客說實在話實在是明年我們的目標就是千萬對那你有其他我當然知道嘛因為上次我也問過了嘛齁有這個這些這個雖然我不是能夠接受啦但觀光署講的什麼地震啊什麼這個我說實在話我不知道日本地震比我們一樣多那為什麼它可以成長"},{"start":9838.664,"end":9855.977,"text":"所以找到理由再找到原因找到解決方式然後貫徹的去執行這個是觀光署要做的啦阿其實我們還有很多觀光材可以運用你看到那麼多例子嘛你看一個棒球比賽可以帶動這麼多的人到台灣來觀光二、二月又要比了"},{"start":9856.84,"end":9874.03,"text":"二月又要比了當然這一次國家比較遠一點可能來的難度高但是它也是一個競賽它不但競賽它也可以促進國旅因為它在大巨蛋比中南部的球迷要上來他可能也可以住宿在台北不一定要當天坐高鐵回去"},{"start":9874.87,"end":9890.341,"text":"所以其實觀光局的思維要更多元廣泛不只我們棒球比賽還有很多其他電競、演唱會各式各樣的這種商演都是很好的跟觀光可以做很好的結合"},{"start":9891.261,"end":9918.797,"text":"這個就是多元化不只國家的多元化我們對觀光思維不是只有說我就是規劃好要去旅行他只要離開家他其實就開始進行觀光啊消費啊甚至他住一個晚上就需要旅宿嘛所以觀光的角度我覺得應該是這個樣子最後一個小問題齁這個部長你這個我有看到這個我們郵政公司啊對於這個Team Taiwan冠軍遊者啊"},{"start":9919.659,"end":9920.145,"text":"首波就秒殺,"},{"start":9923.8,"end":9952.242,"text":"那個董事長首波就秒殺啦齁我看了一下這個你們遊者第一波只做五千份總共應該是一萬啦因為還會有第二次一萬喔就算不管啦就算你做到兩萬我還是覺得你太小看這個冠軍的威力我跟你們報告我們現在下個禮拜一二在這個網購就不限量對啦啊那個數字兩天的這個預購限這個數字晚以後我們就跟包括"},{"start":9953.242,"end":9966.45,"text":"這個中華職棒我們在談這個授權就馬上這個看有多少份就給多少份對我的意思就是說郵政公司對市場的敏感度應該要更高一點你看到我們前面對不對職棒雜誌一賣就20萬本"},{"start":9970.319,"end":9995.338,"text":"你們這個遊者涉及那個五千一萬的這個實在是敏感度我現在講是賺錢啦我希望郵政公司收益能夠更好嘛所以我剛有再報告大概大概這樣我們有一個步驟啦像今天開始就是明信片大概有40萬張然後遊者先一萬份然後第二波易過就是我們要看真的是要探那個市場"},{"start":9996.278,"end":10024.32,"text":"不是,我的意思告訴你說,有一些指標你可以不用探了嘛。就你問一下我們到底賣了中華紙棒賣了雜誌賣了幾萬份,你其實大概就可以預估嘛。所以我的意思是說,我不是責怪你們啦,是說你這種錢你再不賺,你想到要出郵票是好事啦。還很多單位連想都沒想過這個事情,你想到要出郵票是好事。但是你對於量的預估齁,這個賺錢的速度太慢了。"},{"start":10025.714,"end":10027.956,"text":"因為紀念郵票是記載我們的這個郵政的發展史裡面的所以那個包括"},{"start":10054.095,"end":10054.275,"text":"謝謝蔡委員。"},{"start":10081.789,"end":10083.231,"text":"接下來有請何新淳委員發言。"},{"start":10103.29,"end":10117.304,"text":"謝謝主席其實剛剛蔡委員在講的我們要做推展台灣那觀光很重要那事實上在交通部的轄下所有的單位應該要橫向的聯繫我今天要特別講的是什麼剛剛蔡委員講的我們最強的會長講的聽台灣的冠軍遊輒"},{"start":10125.211,"end":10147.659,"text":"這個他看起來是中華郵政的業務但是他也是種觀光行銷啊可是我看我們的橫向聯繫從來沒有大家都是各做各的那現在我先講中華郵政自己本身啊預購秒殺雖然剛剛董事長有說啊有我們這是第一波還有第二波那未來還有計劃但是呢我們要談的是什麼"},{"start":10148.599,"end":10170.904,"text":"如何用比較新的觀念,而且是跟得上時代的觀念來進行行銷。這個行銷不是只有在推我們中華郵政,幫中華郵政賺錢。這個行銷也是台灣可以向國際行銷賺國外的錢嘛,對不對。只是說我們,我再講一次,我看起來好像大家都是各做各的。"},{"start":10171.684,"end":10190.394,"text":"少了一個整合行銷的一個觀念部長這給你做參考我覺得觀光對我們交通部來講是一個重中之重的業務也是把台灣的國際形象搞好的一個最重要的關鍵所以這個產業大家也希望說政府能夠"},{"start":10191.314,"end":10193.677,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並屬單位預算"},{"start":10209.947,"end":10234.533,"text":"這個王董事長你自己應該也知道這在你們網站上下來了我們從60年代我們不斷的只要在國際賽事上不管是少棒、輕棒、成棒只要有得冠軍有得獎項我們都會發行紀念郵票這個是已經民國60年到民國108年那今年是因為12強世界冠軍所以我們有"},{"start":10236.033,"end":10255.438,"text":"董事長,我們中華郵政裡面有沒有這樣子碰到這個天大的一個機會來行銷我們中華郵政這個是我們的強項也是我們獨佔市場的,你有沒有想過說這是可以把它包裝行銷可以當作下一次的行銷,為什麼?台灣棒球很棒,台灣很用的,"},{"start":10257.598,"end":10259.241,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":10269.417,"end":10297.736,"text":"包括最強的會長現在已經說那個獎盃是要巡回台灣去做展示啊可是呢101開始爭取我們其他的單位還沒有人跳出來說要爭取我為什麼會說中華郵政在這一次可以做自己的行銷形象的行銷也可以做什麼賺錢的一個大最重要的機會行銷都在於行銷那要行銷要不要有人要有人啊我不知道中華郵政有沒有相關的這種"},{"start":10300.177,"end":10325.43,"text":"行銷人才全都的,不是選了什麼做了什麼,董事長有嗎?有,我們現在有公共事務處,他是負責這個行銷,不過各位知道這次事實上他們是,我們是三波高潮,明信片、遊者、紀念遊票,然後紀念遊票裡面一、二、三接經典賽的這個預算,當然如果經典賽到複賽我們的冠軍,當然那時候一定要再花一次。"},{"start":10326.49,"end":10340.219,"text":"所以我的意思是說那要多元的行銷對不對各式各樣只要能夠爭取曝光只要有行銷的機會都要那甚至觀光署在他的對外的網頁甚至在配合觀光的行銷運動也是一種行銷運動產業行銷台灣的運動產業那"},{"start":10348.144,"end":10362.373,"text":"剛剛最強會長講了啊,你看大家日本韓國的球迷也會來這裡看棒球啊,那只要台灣有舉辦國際賽事,那也會來啊,是不是?比如台中也有啊,對不對?所以我的意思是說,我們交通部向下,"},{"start":10363.194,"end":10376.417,"text":"推觀光推行銷我覺得是可以這個在民間企業叫做異業結合啦結盟啦大家可以互相合作拉抬嘛那甚至增加曝光的機會嘛對不對這個才是整套的一個我希望我們能夠有這樣子的人才啦"},{"start":10383.11,"end":10412.219,"text":"我們來加強,我們現在大概很多行銷是在委託其他這種行銷公司來處理,那根本包括的確像12強這個也是我們中華郵政最近一波讓人家重視到我們的網站會掛掉。是啊,曾幾何時中華郵政的網站會被衝到掛掉,那表示多熱啊對不對。所以我們覺得爭取這一種尤其國家的這種非常榮耀的時刻,"},{"start":10412.967,"end":10441.043,"text":"然後當然就是配合部長這邊對於觀光的發展我們這個持續而且我覺得不僅僅他只是不僅僅是觀光行銷不僅僅只是幫中華郵政在累積盈餘賺錢重要他是一個歷史記憶這個東西留下來是一個紀念他買的人或者是參與的人對他來講這是他人生當中一個很光榮很重要的記憶所以郵票所以你會發行郵票嗎那接下來"},{"start":10441.883,"end":10468.339,"text":"要說專業、要說觀光大家今天也有人提到郵政博物館我剛剛為什麼說你要爭取這一個12強獎盃冠軍來做展因為你們有郵政博物館你們有場館可是你們的場館做得很不專業、很不到位而且備受大家認為說你們第一個那個管理有問題"},{"start":10469.502,"end":10496.181,"text":"第二、策展的專業有問題。第三、連時間都會開放時間都是很官僚式的沒有任何其他的配套甚至如果我們的中華郵政要止血不要繼續走老路子老套的話就必須要想盡辦法去打入年輕人年輕化的一個"},{"start":10497.227,"end":10499.648,"text":"二、審查一、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查十、"},{"start":10516.772,"end":10517.172,"text":"董事長你知道嗎?好"},{"start":10544.725,"end":10572.853,"text":"我回答你這個問題跟部長討論以後我們今天開始所有的本館本來就是只有休禮拜一現在三個分館從今天開始都是休禮拜一其他都開放第一個第二個地方郵局的管理是的確是在這一次我去三個這個郵輪館去看就是說它因為它原來是直接由我們由郵國館的總館來管所以它是以郵票為主"},{"start":10573.793,"end":10595.135,"text":"但是我覺得這個有點可惜,台中剛剛開幕,委員可以看一下,事實上它非常精彩,我們是希望它變成一個郵政的生活館來看,這意思是說除了郵票以外,它有很多的文創的產品,還有一些歷史,它也是可以結合讓地方能夠去的一個地方。"},{"start":10598.856,"end":10618.08,"text":"但是經營要有專業、經營要有人力、經營要有人啊。這個我們總公司這邊、董事長這邊有沒有願意投資好好的來把這個郵政博物館跟分館要把它整理好,然後能夠顯示它的專業,然後顯示出我們的空間的改造。"},{"start":10619.12,"end":10625.547,"text":"這個都需要我們總公司的支持跟部長的支持啊是不是這個部分我們當然支持的要有專業的策展是嘛你沒有專業的人的時候為什麼我要幫你們想裁員啊要開員嘛對不對那開員剛剛"},{"start":10636.442,"end":10638.345,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質。"},{"start":10653.803,"end":10675.776,"text":"包裝以後比我們原來票值高很多。對,你們呢按照你們票值在賣可能一套幾百塊幾十塊,他呢一套是賣一千二、一千五甚至兩千以上,啊這個為什麼故宮人家會你們不會呢?你這是你所省省出來郵票,這麼值得紀念的一個郵票、套票,"},{"start":10676.936,"end":10702.715,"text":"那怎麼不懂得去經營跟行銷呢?第二個我建議可以用文化幣如果你們願意包裝行銷故宮在賣你們中華郵政的郵票套票的時候他可以使用文化幣那會吸引更多的年輕人來來可能想要來買郵票嘛這也是行銷創新你們的思考啊對不對"},{"start":10704.588,"end":10706.209,"text":"尤其我們文化幣現在要加碼喔13到15歲可以有600喔那現在15歲到18歲是有1200喔"},{"start":10713.649,"end":10735.04,"text":"我跟各位報告就是說事實上在中華郵政有很多的創意商品就是類似他雖然是用郵票但是做成杯子做成紀念品是剛才談到像故宮事實上故宮也是跟我們合作是啊是在跟我們合作可是你賣的是那個郵票的那個幣值啊然後他賣的是整套的這個價值啊藝術價值啊是"},{"start":10736.721,"end":10754.555,"text":"阿文化幣用在集友跟郵政博物館我想這部分我們跟文化部這個要爭取啦因為既然我們郵政博物館要如果有心要好好的來投資要經營要讓它變得是更親近我們一般的人民讓一般的年輕家庭跟親子都可以進入我們的郵政博物館去認識我們的郵票歷史文化還有它很有價值的一些"},{"start":10761,"end":10785.753,"text":"紀念性的郵票那甚至延伸出很多的文化創意產品我覺得這是我們中華郵政的開源方法之一嘛那文化幣是便便的一個可以讓年輕人他拿著文化幣也許未來盡快的時間裡面談好了之後你接下來的紀念郵票跟接下來的這個棒球相關的年輕人就可以用文化幣來買啊"},{"start":10786.894,"end":10790.195,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":10817.468,"end":10821.371,"text":"謝謝委員。好,謝謝何委員。接下來有請許富奎委員發言。謝謝主席。我們有請陳部長跟我們周署長。陳部長、周署長。委員好。"},{"start":10845.104,"end":10860.576,"text":"部長、署長早安。我想本席還是要持續關心我們這個所謂一個觀光的一個效益的一個問題。那當然依我們觀光署我們在12月6號有公布,截至目前大概今年度的"},{"start":10861.997,"end":10862.017,"text":"是。"},{"start":10881.697,"end":10902.663,"text":"議長,我想不管在委員會也好,我想甚至很多的委員,大家都持續關心我們觀光署在這個過去我們看到當然周處長很努力,但是外界也批評他用這個大撒幣來招攬國際這個旅客的一個做法,感覺那個KPI沒出來,那我想真的這樣的一個"},{"start":10904.083,"end":10921.169,"text":"今年也快結束了嘛,真的這樣子的一個狀況,那明年部長認為我們明年的國際旅客有沒有什麼定義的目標?要達到多少分?您的那個螢幕上面顯示說沒有破千萬是國恥啊,那所以我們明年的目標就是希望能夠破千萬。"},{"start":10921.949,"end":10939.109,"text":"我們就是以一千萬作為目標今年沒有達到我們明年就來達到那委員剛剛在指教的就是說這個用補貼的方式其實在各國的旅遊每一國的政府其實大部分現在所有的國家大部分是用補貼的方式所以不是只有台灣在做"},{"start":10939.669,"end":10965.868,"text":"其他我們鄰近的國家包含韓國他們也是這樣在做有很多國家都是這樣在做大家都在拼觀光那補貼是全世界很多國家都在做的一種方式那旅遊的逆差的部分其實我覺得這個他們上面的算法有一點點小小的不公平就是說我們出國的旅客我們出國的旅客是包含了機票錢但是來台灣玩的旅客沒有包含機票錢"},{"start":10966.688,"end":10986.695,"text":"一差就差了好幾萬所以那個利差算起來看起來會很大但是那個是計算的基礎我覺得有點小小的不公平跟委員報告部長那因為我們目前掌握到這個我們有民間的學者他們估算這個圖表上有顯示嗎截至目前大概到8月份我們的利差的人數高達640多萬"},{"start":10988.536,"end":11007.615,"text":"那所謂的一個產值的逆差高達7380億非常龐大一個數字那我們也知道這個觀光署這邊最近也在一直在持續在佈局所謂的一個國外的一個行銷的一些據點甚至也花了很多錢跟網紅搭配"},{"start":11008.416,"end":11035.553,"text":"但是我要提醒部長,部長,這國際旅客除了人數減少之外,最大衝擊是我們國內的觀光產業。你人不去買,我們國內這產業大家苦不堪言啊。但是我想相對性我們還是要要求觀光署,其實我們目前看到尤其像很多我們屏東來講,我們有大鵬灣管理處也有茂林管理處,但是很遺憾我們並沒有創造新的觀光的一個"},{"start":11036.454,"end":11038.675,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通"},{"start":11057.941,"end":11083.376,"text":"是那個我們也上一次委員特別追尋我們也明年把它當作一個很重要的半島旅遊那把恆春半島的部分做一些串接那這個部分我們已經跟屏東縣政府也有聯繫了那我們接著就是要跟那個國家公務員署那墾丁國家公務員一起把這個大鵬灣、小琉球、東港連結到海生館"},{"start":11084.377,"end":11086.878,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算"},{"start":11101.984,"end":11127.68,"text":"對,這部分就是要拜託署長,我想我們整個搭配跨部會的一個合作,怎麼樣把我們整個國內的旅遊品質的軟硬體建設再加強,而且我們的部長也很喜歡去墾丁深入旅遊,我想這個才是我們未來要發展生態跟觀光跟深入旅遊,這才會永續經營,我想這也是針對很多外國的一個遊客很有誘因的一個點,我想我們應該努力這個方向。"},{"start":11128.781,"end":11155.012,"text":"另外屏東我想目前我們比較關心因為有一個關心的地方就是大鵬灣的開發那觀光署這邊目前大概掌握到的資料大概就是我們11月份的招商大會我們目前預計投資金額可以突破300億我想這個部分也是我們整個屏東縣很多我們鄉親很期待的一個重要的一個觀光建設但是我還是要提醒我們部長跟署長有一個問題"},{"start":11156.292,"end":11174.898,"text":"因為過去我們在做一個這個開發的一個協調上面我們當地的居民有被提出要求要回饋捐地或繳交待機來做一個公共設施的一個建設但是我們發現這有很大的一個問題點就是因為現在百姓捐出來的地它分散在不一樣的地方"},{"start":11175.598,"end":11202.443,"text":"我們公務部門包含我們盤管署也好縣政也好怎麼樣把這些捐出來的土地做有效的整合作為公共設施的一個使用甚至到開闢道路這部分到目前為止一直沒有一個相關的進度那個跟委員報告一下應該是由4、由5、由6這個部分啦那我們這次招商是由1、由2、由3對那那個一個是我們希望能夠擴大那有關於由5的部分"},{"start":11203.283,"end":11221.007,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部"},{"start":11228.141,"end":11253.894,"text":"對,那邊還需要整地的協商。好,那我想許處長也有到,請許處長說明一下。好,來。報告委員,這個案子現在11月19號在內政部還有做討論。那主席有交代說,可能針對這個私有土地的開發回饋,交代小組在研議。那我們會跟內政部再討論,如果把它"},{"start":11254.614,"end":11275.692,"text":"把這個誘因跟後續的處理機制,把它做一個...沒有啦,處理...你捐出來的土地跟我們陳部長捐出來的土地都不一樣在一個區塊,要怎麼整合起來做公共設施啦,這是一個很大的問題啦。是。這個一定要再跟內政部好好討論一下怎麼樣,不然你今天關出來的土地金額就沒多少了,輸了嘛,你要把它圍起來去。是是。"},{"start":11276.833,"end":11286.523,"text":"這個我們都有跟內政部在討論的。而且你們現在要求繳交的代金也不足以去支付這些公共設施的一個預算啊。這比來什麼人要買單?是。"},{"start":11289.929,"end":11315.767,"text":"好這部分現在提起我們就會注意啦會注意到時候跟內政部那邊在開會的時候就要特別提出來對啊不能讓大鵬開發變成兩個世界啊你由一由二由三做一個國際級的就由四由五由六一體停滯不前這是不對的啊我們應該是要整體大鵬一個開發的進度嗎那另外我想針對這個中華郵政的部分我董事長這個我記得我大概"},{"start":11317.628,"end":11337.142,"text":"上半年的時候我有針對這樣的一個我們虧損的一個情形也提出質詢那像我們現在比較擔心就是說因為我們去年虧損16.5億之後那我們陸續裁員了274名的一個外勤人員跟內勤的窗口人員但目前我們聽到狀況是欲缺不補"},{"start":11337.862,"end":11360.55,"text":"那現在目前我們知道今年退休跟離職的人大概有高達1150個人但是你們只有招考70個人這樣的狀況是不是造成我們基層同仁的一個很大的一個工作的負擔甚至有些已進行科技往南部的鄉親他考到中北部他期待時間到了應該要可以調回南部結果調不回來這就造成更多家庭的問題這不應該怎麼去處理"},{"start":11364.653,"end":11388.446,"text":"現在我來用我的政策是在尾外的部分先處理啦比如說因為的確他現在油量在下降嘛應該說尾外的部分是不是可以減少然後這個由我們現在的比如說油務室來擔任的這個都在進行那現在的確在申請到這個異動的部分比如說南部是特別多"},{"start":11389.056,"end":11413.314,"text":"我看高雄、那個屏東都非常的多,所以它有點消耗不良,那我現在也給他們一個這個希望說,如果這個補還沒補齊以前,不要各舉再去招考新人,讓要調回來的沒有這個機會,那目前大概朝這個方向來進行,我想說整個在這個人力的調度還是按照我們的需求,還有現況的這個調動性來處理的。"},{"start":11415.852,"end":11436.667,"text":"對,因為過去本期也有接到我們有我們基層通文在投訴這個我們要補的時候不要只有補高階人員高階的這個主管應該要針對基層的人力要多補充因為第一所做工會最辛苦的那我想不要造成勞役不均的一個工作環境我們中華郵政才會是一個幸福企業"},{"start":11437.773,"end":11452.868,"text":"他現在就是的確在人力的這個調配是按照我們這個整個業務的一個狀況那當然就是說在中間是不是有沒有處理比較不當的部分我想這部分我請各局來做一些這個檢討"},{"start":11453.869,"end":11476.395,"text":"對啦,董事長也應該針對我們這個工業那個工作量的狀況跟人力的配置的部分應該做一個全面性的盤點,而不是這個要因地制宜啦,這樣我覺得讓同仁會覺得說這個各種在對的地方做得比較辛苦,在南部的做得比較緊張,沒有這一回事應該要全面排領我們工作的負擔量。好,我們就朝這方向持續來檢討。好,謝謝。謝謝委員。好,謝謝許委員。"},{"start":11483.413,"end":11485.116,"text":"接下來有請楊瓊英委員發言。謝主席,楊瓊英發言,邀請部長。陳部長"},{"start":11503.009,"end":11529.866,"text":"委員好部長我們來討論這個通用計程車的議題因為2025年我們要邁入台灣邁入超高齡那這個數字讓我們也很緊張65歲以上長者比例會超過20%這個緊張是長輩是我們家的寶貝但是我們要怎麼樣讓他們可以生活的非常的安逸這是政府的責任因此我們看到身障人口"},{"start":11530.586,"end":11533.088,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算．"},{"start":11546.391,"end":11564.596,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部"},{"start":11566.196,"end":11582.463,"text":"我記得第一台台中的這個通用計程車我們大家記者會都大家很高興大家都去宣傳但是我們看到目前為止部長目前為止我們總共有多少我們的通用計程車僅佔總量的1%"},{"start":11585.393,"end":11592.603,"text":"政府有一個他的目標,他的KPI,2020年要多少呢?2020年要20%。通貨計程車要佔總量的20%。但是現在我們"},{"start":11602.712,"end":11616.622,"text":"統計這1.3%原因出在哪裡請問報告委員這個通用計程車確實我們目前的數量不足原因出在哪裡原因出在兩個部分一個部分是說想叫車的人叫不到"},{"start":11617.483,"end":11644.135,"text":"那有車的人他也找不到客人那找不到客人的時候他們願意投入的這個意願就會相對的低。議員低?是為什麼呢?我覺得是他們中間的串接啦。就是說個人跟車隊中間的串接的程度還不夠所以我們現在正在努力要做一個APP我們要做一個APP做一個平台讓他們雙方的串接更有效率這是一方面。部長你現在的說法本行沒有辦法認同。"},{"start":11644.875,"end":11665.965,"text":"我們應該要先看你的老年人口我們的身障的朋友已經要佔65歲以上是43%在這樣的情況我們的需求是夠的但是你的供給是不夠的你的供給只有1.3%跟你自己政府定的KPI20%落差將近20倍你應該要由這一點去檢討"},{"start":11669.907,"end":11678.734,"text":"你要怎麼樣讓設備可以足?這方面有在檢討。怎麼檢討?我們對於購車的補貼也好,或者是說……請問購車補貼這樣一台設備你補貼多少?我目前數字啦,我會後再詳細再跟委員報告。我告訴你,從12年前政府沒有在追蹤。"},{"start":11691.22,"end":11691.54,"text":"一趟給50塊,到現在也是。"},{"start":11707.694,"end":11734.005,"text":"你12年來你的落差已經那麼大你為什麼不去檢討?這個部分有在檢討怎麼檢討?我前幾天就已經找公關的單位有來檢討怎麼檢討?不是一張50塊而已我們未來的方式因為他有時候要去載客人他會空車空車的里程我們也會寄費給他也就是說補貼會超過那個50塊啦空車的部分如果你再加上的話會更多一點所以對於業者來講他願意參加的意願會再增加"},{"start":11734.645,"end":11743.677,"text":"你現在告訴本席的說你們朝一到五時在空車的部分我還補貼給你,這個方向,那車子的部分呢?"},{"start":11744.461,"end":11769.889,"text":"車子的部分其實跟委員報告目前來申請補貼的其實數量沒有很大,如果真的有需要再提高。議員不高嗎?對,議員不高。那議員不高,你是政府啊。他的議員不高,你要怎麼樣讓他議員高?因為你的終極目標是要協助需要協助的長者跟身障的朋友,對不對?你的目標是這個,你既然你的設備都不足,"},{"start":11770.729,"end":11797.9,"text":"你就一趴當然你的成效會不髒啊不是,報告委員我剛有講一個問題齁我們現在要趕快快速解決的是有車的人找不到客人有需求的人找不到車那中間的串接的平台顯然是有問題的那我們先把中間的串接中間的串接平台先把它做好做好一個完整的APP讓客人隨時預約的到車那車子也不會變成空車當他生意很好的時候他就意願就會提高"},{"start":11798.24,"end":11816.342,"text":"但是我要建議你你要馬兒跑必須要給馬兒吃草為什麼計程車通用計程車他們為了他們的生存他會去轉型因為我要生存嘛計程車世界要轉型我們需要協助的需要做通用的他找不到車"},{"start":11817.523,"end":11832.244,"text":"所以會達成三輸的這個情況。請教既然我們討論到這個議題本身非常的關心我們身上的朋友所以請教你們現在所要檢討多久時間會有方案出來給社會大眾"},{"start":11832.867,"end":11851.576,"text":"我們應該在這兩三個月就可以有一個方案出來了在這個兩三個月對這兩三個月就是農曆年的過年過後過後對我們會有一個檢討的方案大概會是在這個二月底二月底告訴社會大眾就是在二月底告訴社會大眾到底要怎麼辦"},{"start":11852.757,"end":11867.117,"text":"我希望因為我們點出這個問題就陳理文你說了不管是對接有問題不管你在補貼方面人家沒有誘因攻擊跟需求他是沒有辦法去搭搭的而且最糟糕的是什麼"},{"start":11868.218,"end":11896.181,"text":"是需求需要供給不夠這個是在我們整個社會面裡頭的邏輯最糟糕的所以我希望能夠在這個農曆年過後可以得到看到你的方案到底是什麼我也要求你先把你們初步的方向先給本席好不好我們繼續來討論我們希望好好的來這個幫助需要幫助的人接下來最後一個議題我要請問我們現在觀光局"},{"start":11897.401,"end":11923.387,"text":"那10月16號您說了今年來台的人客數大概是750萬,達到你去年約定的千萬目標是沒有辦法達標,但是我們今年也就是明年,我們現在審明天預算,您就希望以千人為目標來努力,這很好,我們朝我們的目標,但是我們根據觀光署的一個統計,到8月底本席統計,"},{"start":11924.127,"end":11927.029,"text":"出入境的逆差達到了641萬人次,它的產值逆差會達到7300億,會創下了歷史的新高。"},{"start":11954.307,"end":11962.258,"text":"正新國旅除了靠你來大力的宣導之外你還有什麼樣的方式可以讓這個逆差不要這麼大請做說明"},{"start":11964.096,"end":11978.644,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們在算這個觀光產值的時候我們要分兩個部分一個是英鎊就是入境的你告訴我你跟我爭執數字沒有意義本期是要聽你要怎麼樣能夠將這個逆差我們沒辦法管制國人出國"},{"start":11988.038,"end":11997.905,"text":"所以這個逆差這樣算法其實不是很公平的算法但是因為已經算了哇你今天是行政部門你講這個我嚴肅的跟你抗議你當然我們民主國家你怎麼可能去管人家要出國而是你要去理解你今天觀光署你要怎麼樣讓外面的人可以進來而且讓我的國人也可以國旅所以我剛剛特別跟你講了國旅嘛以及你要怎麼樣讓這個逆差減少"},{"start":12017.057,"end":12023.361,"text":"我把答案給你了,你還在講這個內容,這個離譜嗎?對啊!部長講的就對啊!我希望要聽到這個啊!你不是告訴我我沒有辦法去控制我們的國人要出國!我們是民主國家欸!"},{"start":12035.387,"end":12062.875,"text":"報告委員我們會盡量國外的宣傳做好然後台灣的亮點做好這兩點是最重要就像你們菲律賓前天啊你發表了一個菲律賓的代言人這個方案不錯所以你應該要怎麼樣去精進各種方案呢你在這邊跟我辯證國人聽不下去的對不對我們希望聽到行政部門你是有方案的所以怎麼樣能夠讓產值的逆差不那麼大"},{"start":12063.835,"end":12068.239,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":12083.55,"end":12098.003,"text":"有,我們每年的年度計畫裡面還有部長會在...你告訴針對本席的提問嘛,你多久,你的經濟方案可以跟本席...我們一個月內就提供...一個月內提供嘛,好不好,謝謝好,謝謝委員好,謝謝楊委員接下來有請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":12115.7,"end":12119.844,"text":"好,我們請陳部長跟周署長。周署長。好。部長好、署長好。委員好。部長。是。這個上海副市長啊,一個小小的上海副市長所宣布上海人可以來台灣的,你相信嗎?"},{"start":12138.125,"end":12159.42,"text":"我們還沒有看到他們文旅部有這樣子的政策宣布,所以這個部分我還不確定,因為中國的體制說實在的,誰說了算到目前為止還不確定。因為中國人出國要國家同意,我們台灣人出國就要去做政管,不然就什麼軍公教育一大堆規定的不可以去,"},{"start":12160.916,"end":12162.478,"text":"其他護照客的去哪裡去哪裡啦,那中國獨裁國家,他們一個上海副市長而已,這樣說說台灣這樣瘋瘋的。"},{"start":12170.731,"end":12189.28,"text":"我們在花蓮縣的副縣長也可以說,開放花蓮縣副縣長可以去中國,本來就可以去中國,還是在裝瘋的。所以這個,第一個請我們這個觀光署、交通部這一點有密切注意。歡迎,他們要來都來,可是他們的國家有很多,他們不能親自出國的。"},{"start":12193.072,"end":12193.532,"text":"現在台灣人去韓國都要買什麼?"},{"start":12223.441,"end":12251.181,"text":"有很多parts可以買啦,優惠券。不是啦,我是說去買什麼東西啦。年齡層不同,那這個4歲以下的買很多泡麵,還有買一些,我們說後面那個啦,就是。我知道啦,你要說泡菜啦,海苔啦,那是我們這個年紀的。我們家人這陣子去香港要買什麼回來?"},{"start":12254.198,"end":12264.283,"text":"在場我比較好大家知道嗎?買棉被!我問你怎麼要這麼多票要賺啊?他說人家現在去韓國都要買棉被。部長你有聽過嗎?其實沒聽過。沒聽過對不對?你現在網路給他輸入。去首爾買棉被。因為你說去兩個市場買。去首爾要買什麼?現在調查都棉被。好我為什麼先講這一題?那請問"},{"start":12283.536,"end":12305.088,"text":"日本人到台灣他要買什麼?台灣應該很多吧當然大家所熟悉的他們對鳳梨酥還是情有獨鍾啦然後但是就是分類啦我們是鼓勵他們多買一些精品那叫你鼓勵沒關係啦我們去韓國去首爾說首爾必買"},{"start":12310.51,"end":12326.142,"text":"所以你是日本,日本人輸入的時候說到台灣必買,那挑一套錢的就來了。我們那既必要什麼,什麼富豪、豆漿對吧?為什麼要整群的啊?那日本人、韓國人為什麼來台灣都去喝豆漿?很奇怪的,你想我都喝四海豆漿。"},{"start":12334.345,"end":12350.193,"text":"因為他們的網站、他們的旅遊書就跟他說來台灣、來台北一定要去那裡導致。所以我就問,你們接下來,我舉韓國做例子,接下來你們找韓國的人代言台灣觀光,"},{"start":12352.028,"end":12376.393,"text":"去年找誰?我們找龜賢今年?對,今年找龜賢明年?我們是一個年度一個年度來明年找誰?目前還是在評估找的人要不要署長同意?我們當然是一起開會討論你們在討論,你們討論沒有用啦觀光署的同仁不要討論"},{"start":12378.257,"end":12407.481,"text":"我們有專業的公司啦專業的公司你還問韓國人啦專業的公司也是國際的還有韓國人你再提醒你這是KOL的部分啦你們要找你們要問韓國人要找有流量的韓國人來幫我們推不是你們不要從台灣去觀察韓國要找誰你要問韓國人說哪一個人譬如說這個PINK LADYPLAY PINK這幾個人很多"},{"start":12408.702,"end":12414.443,"text":"現在辦演唱會很多,那群人來台灣整群在高雄怎麼笑的?是是。"},{"start":12415.669,"end":12439.388,"text":"一大堆,那很貴的我知道啦,可是你們找到的網紅是韓國人喜歡的,他們講的都性質啦,他們講的都性質。早有流量的,然後有吸引力,能夠吸引出的一些網紅。所以這要找國際的網紅,要找他們那個國家的人認同的。要用他們的角度,不要用我們的角度。好,我再問第二個問題,那個署長你知不知道我有領隊導遊執照?"},{"start":12442.512,"end":12463.917,"text":"有沒有聽過?我大概不曉得。你可以查得到我有沒有在執業嗎?旅行社通報的時候才會查的,刻意去查。所以你查不到我這個有領隊導遊的人,我曾經執業過對不對?你也查不到我從來沒有執業過對不對?對,因為它是一個證照制,就像我們有電腦的…我覺得這個你們機制要改變。"},{"start":12468.943,"end":12487.368,"text":"為什麼要改變?上次在疫情期間不是要補助領隊導遊嗎?當時我跟交通部長講說,我沒有在職業,我給你申請,你如果補助的話你就麻煩了。應該不會,因為透過旅行社嘛。不是,就是說我有證喔,我都有證喔。是是。然後呢,我每到期間我就換證喔。"},{"start":12491.138,"end":12511.839,"text":"那各地的協會都會去換換都可以換嘛對不對齁好我的意思是說我們現在我們的觀光署有沒有掌握擁有領隊導遊執照的人啊擁有領隊導遊執照的人現在在線上啊譬如說今年有在執業的是哪些人啊哪些人都沒有在執業你想我就沒在執業啊可是我還是有證啊"},{"start":12512.944,"end":12531.711,"text":"阿雖然我沒有去換證,我只要再去上幾個小時,對不對,之後我就又有證了。對。阿所以我的意思是說,因為三年換證之外,如果要執業的話要訓練。對,阿我們國家總是要知道說武嶺對島到底誰有在執業嘛,到底有多少人在執業,不然你們現在手上掌握的數字阿,"},{"start":12532.651,"end":12548.406,"text":"都是虛的啦,都是虛的啦。有統計了,我們也還是有統計。對,本人的統計就是他不在職業裡面,就是他有資格而已啦。有效的,叫有效的導遊。好,我再問剛剛第二個問題就是說那個觀光發展研訓院啦,我看媒體有在報導,目前籌備的狀況怎麼樣?接下來領隊導遊就這個研訓院來負責嗎?"},{"start":12554.321,"end":12582.756,"text":"我們昨天才開會來討論我們希望115年可以正式讓它上線營運你們現在領隊導遊考試院不幫忙考了嗎?是由我們觀光署委託專業的來考試我是建議以後就由國家的研訓院負責來辦當然到各個北中南東要訓練再委託其他的協會跟學校"},{"start":12583.676,"end":12584.516,"text":"接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言。"},{"start":12622.349,"end":12647.537,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請陳世凱部長陳部長好部長好委員好部長我想今天早上很多委員都有關心說針對兩岸的旅遊的一個部分是面對現在上海主動有出席也釋放善意那台灣的進入團令進團令的部分你今天上午有回答是說會滾動檢討是不是是沒錯好"},{"start":12649.198,"end":12675.906,"text":"然後我想請教一下到目前為止兩個部分第一從我們宣布說進團令6月30號開始到現在我們有沒有這一些旅行社還是有做這個相關的組團前往中國大陸6月30之前組團6月30以後啦到現在網路上我們有沒有看到很多的旅行社其實有做這樣的一個安排還是有啦但是不多還是有嗎對所以那我們這邊有沒有找有相關的一個規範或說相關的一個處置了嗎"},{"start":12678.752,"end":12705.524,"text":"我們的禁團令,有嗎?對,委員提的是禁團令有,但是因為當初有一個3月到5月的開放。沒有啊,我現在講的是說3月到5月之後啦,現在有沒有在賣?我們去查一下。不能公開,不能公開,不能公開,對啊。不能公開,大家都知道,就只有我們觀光署不知道。其實有嘛,要不要現在搜尋一下。"},{"start":12707.199,"end":12712.05,"text":"本席致死之痛的立場都是認為說觀光是民眾市場"},{"start":12713.288,"end":12742.507,"text":"大家喜歡去那個地方那個地方就是會活絡那你不要用政治意識形態干預對岸不應該台灣也不要我們都應該要開放的態度來去讓所有人喜歡的就來商機無限嘛之前是因為疫情所以飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲運輸海嘯第一排很可憐但現在疫情過後就好像只有台灣我們還活在這個疫情交廊裡面我們還沒有回復"},{"start":12743.648,"end":12764.374,"text":"所以之前講說今年要一千兩百萬沒有變一千萬沒有變七百五十萬沒有到最後七百萬結果本期看到連來台七百萬突破的觀光人士都可以做新聞啊說實在話你當初我們期待你做新聞是做一千兩百萬不是七百萬所以"},{"start":12766.892,"end":12786.043,"text":"我想請教一下部長假設啦對岸現在真的能夠讓上海的民眾來到台灣那我們的這個禁團令真的可以讓國人也到中國大陸的時候是消費人身安全保障保險等等的都可以比較有一個名正言順契約"},{"start":12788.45,"end":12802.465,"text":"什麼時候能夠檢討?報告委員,這滾動檢討其實就是代表隨時在檢討。農曆年前呢?因為現在接下來其實很快,跨年、農曆年,這都是算是大節日。報告委員,我們隨時都在檢討,這第一點。"},{"start":12803.806,"end":12821.464,"text":"第二點剛剛在講的安全的問題其實我們還要再跟業者做更多的商討我所知道目前我們跟業者其實也有在討論對於我們的團客如果到了中國大陸去旅遊的時候他的人生的安全該怎麼保障那這個部分其實業者也有一些想法那我們目前還在統整大家的看法"},{"start":12822.125,"end":12848.839,"text":"所以現在都是滾通檢討就是不設限但是對岸如果說已經有遞這個橄欖枝了我希望真的我們的觀光部門啊能夠好好的互相來共同的來讓兩岸的議題真的能夠在農曆年春融花開來那部長拉回來啊國內的旅遊的一個部分有看到說環境部要推動限速令喔明年馬上就要上路那只剩兩個禮拜就2025年了"},{"start":12850.74,"end":12866.88,"text":"那現在有講到是說各飯店內不能有一次性的備品那甚至連瓶裝水都鼓勵不要用塑膠瓶的瓶裝水要用玻璃瓶或說飲水機我請教我們台灣幾乎是沒有玻璃瓶的飲水"},{"start":12868.086,"end":12886.056,"text":"對不對?那這樣子現在有沒有針對我們的所有的這一些飯店業者?難怪人家在講是說如果說連國內住宿連水都沒有連一次性的備品都沒有網路上討論是說這樣出國理由更多了我們希望這樣子嗎?是!但我說以亞洲國家來講相對來講這樣子的限制是比較少的"},{"start":12890.888,"end":12916.485,"text":"之前有看到是歐洲國家比較多但我現在在講的是說我們飯店業者做好準備沒有?飯店業者做好準備了嗎?觀光旅宿業的部分我們有去宣導那觀光旅館的部分其實他們做的準備是相對比較足夠的那一般的旅館其實我們也拜託地方政府要幫忙去宣導要求他們一定要做到因為這個政策的制定當它制定下去大概就會強制性這樣下去推廣"},{"start":12918.026,"end":12946.594,"text":"那飯店必須要適應這樣一件事。沒有錯。部長你現在沒有聽懂我的話。現在只剩兩個禮拜了。明年1月1號是不是就開始就要實施了。我們會主動抽查。我們就會去檢查。那我們要做的事情並不是要處罰業者吧。我講我們沒有是要處罰業者。我們要的是說希望業者能夠配合政府一起來做這個限數。那所以我現在講的是說到底這兩個禮拜所有業者反應準備好了沒有。"},{"start":12948.537,"end":12960.977,"text":"對,但是有兩個層次,一個是牙刷,我用比較具體的舉例啦,譬如說備品,一次性的備品,對,它不再提供了,那它可以放在櫃台,"},{"start":12962.045,"end":12968.872,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":12984.529,"end":13011.872,"text":"只是說我們希望能夠用鼓勵的跟國際的潮流是一樣的用玻璃瓶的方式能夠重複使用這個我們還會有補貼的計畫希望說飯店業者可以來配合我們國內有多少的玻璃瓶的業者或是說國內我們的消費習慣使用方式我們到最後是觀光署要去幫忙業者找玻璃瓶的飲用水是不是"},{"start":13012.993,"end":13025.937,"text":"這是一個世界的潮流所以大家慢慢的會推廣出來所以用玻璃瓶的方式是可以重複使用啦我們是叫做減速的目標這個沒有開罰啦我知道這我了解兩個部分嘛兩個層次嘛現在是你們講不清楚欸"},{"start":13032.739,"end":13053.765,"text":"主長、部長是你們講不清楚兩個部分你們講說180CC以下的備品是不能用的180以上所以說瓶裝水是沒有限制只是你們鼓勵說要用玻璃瓶或是增加飲用水那本席現在在請教的就是說兩個部分嘛你要讓業者好去購買玻璃瓶啊"},{"start":13054.845,"end":13061.869,"text":"好去購買玻璃瓶的廠商或說至少你的玻璃瓶的提供是方便的有辦法嗎?有溝通嗎?有跟經濟部來聯繫嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":13065.54,"end":13091.993,"text":"我們國人的消費習慣有用過玻璃瓶的飲用水嗎?我只問這一句。便利商店買得到嗎?飯店找得到嗎?你不能自訂一個政策出來之後然後全都是你們在辦公室裡面想咖哩輸咖哩丟然後跟我們國人的消費習慣完全不符合這是環境部所提出來的政策我們配合那再來產業面的部分也不是觀光署做得到的跟委員報告"},{"start":13092.773,"end":13114.267,"text":"但是你現在面臨到的全都是飯店業,為什麼本席今天會特別提出來,就是飯店業者很多跟本席來反應,就說今天交通部一個命令下來,環境部一個命令下來,然後結果交通部完全就當作是置身事外,你是主管機關,但是你真正讓飯店業者他們要自己去摸索,"},{"start":13115.365,"end":13124.954,"text":"然後飯店業者他們還講是擔心說那這樣子他都會不會有開罰輔導你們講輔導你們要補助要補貼結果完全沒有任何配套"},{"start":13125.998,"end":13127.139,"text":"因為很多飯店業者真的都在跟本席反映。"},{"start":13151.781,"end":13174.82,"text":"都說這一個部分身為中央主管機關反而把他們放生一個部分是沒有讓有我們足夠的這個旅客市場能夠增加另外一個部分是當限制或是要求越來越多的時候但是中央主管機關好像沒有他的事情一樣我覺得最基本的媒合最基本的協助最基本的來"},{"start":13176.499,"end":13183.974,"text":"鼓勵他們去做到這些事情都沒有辦法的時候我覺得沒有辦法接受這個我們來努力做給本席相關資料好不好謝謝"},{"start":13189.397,"end":13192.979,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質。"},{"start":13211.131,"end":13218.372,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、"},{"start":13244.708,"end":13271.339,"text":"主席,有請部長還有觀光署署長。陳部長、周署長。委員好。部長好,辛苦了。還有署長,還有我們所有的官員。這個華東地區的這個觀光啊,受到這個0403的地震以及接下來的很多的"},{"start":13272.839,"end":13293.129,"text":"議政加上颱風所以造成北迴鐵路、蘇花公路的嚴重的影響。所以相關的這些也要先謝謝交通部對於相關的這些無論是蘇花公路或是北迴鐵路"},{"start":13294.224,"end":13295.746,"text":"二十一號吧。算是正式這個雙線。對,雙線,雙向。那公路的部分呢?"},{"start":13312.608,"end":13315.19,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":13330.865,"end":13355.538,"text":"在今年八月的時候交通部也特別要求各部會希望多幾辦活動在花蓮當然因為這段時間也受到鐵公路的影響所以我想應該也不多所以是不是請交通部"},{"start":13356.821,"end":13376.806,"text":"因為明年又要開始了明年然後現在這個鐵路也也雙陣線雙線也通了所以這個部分是不是請交通部能夠再發行給各部會多幾辦再發連幾辦這個相關的會議或是活動好不好好沒問題然後另外就是這個"},{"start":13388.35,"end":13411.518,"text":"這個剛剛提到了這個交通部觀光署也提了很多的新的相關的這些措施不管是這個幾天幾夜然後怎麼樣去因應然後也提供這個所謂的3.0的這些措施重點就是剛才我講的就是因為鐵公路"},{"start":13413.254,"end":13417.898,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":13435.834,"end":13452.844,"text":"因為現在明年一月二月,尤其是一月,無論是元旦或是說這個春節,然後這個時候也不會有豪雨颱風,所以是不是可以整。"},{"start":13454.044,"end":13459.327,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光部長陳世凱、董事長及董事長及董事長及董事長及董事長及董事長及"},{"start":13480.836,"end":13507.502,"text":"也就是明年的1月1號開始我們好行的部分是免費大家只要帶悠遊卡、BP就好行都全部免費那台灣觀光的話就一折所以讓大家多鼓勵到花蓮來那部長這個住宿補貼的部分你們還是規劃一下為什麼呢?因為這個你剛剛講的其實如果我們看這個"},{"start":13512.105,"end":13530.343,"text":"按照這個表去年跟今年一直到11月才上升一點點上升一點點這個禮數月的部分所以這個部分還是你們因為新的年度新的預算"},{"start":13531.975,"end":13555.546,"text":"還是請交通部觀光署能夠再繼續的來規劃辦理,這個是非常重要的。那這個大型的活動,怎麼樣去協調相關的部會,因為只要有大型的活動,切實讓這個理事業住房地,當然就會也會帶動什麼呢?"},{"start":13557.298,"end":13562.502,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":13585.731,"end":13586.111,"text":"眾嘉賓眾嘉賓眾嘉賓委員不在。"},{"start":13615.134,"end":13640.564,"text":"有請陳雪真委員發言稍微謝謝,時間暫停我首先要跟我們交通部老部長黃國才部長致意,我不會質詢你還有我們龍哥一起煮龍的今年龍年犯太歲,我們大家生活都要起居小心好,是不是請部長"},{"start":13642.775,"end":13660.461,"text":"好,陳部長,王國才部長不要齁?沒有沒有,陳部長陳部長對不起啊。部長我最近在觀察你啊,我發現你的優點啊,不管誰質詢你啊,不管哪位立委質詢你啊,你先面帶笑容。"},{"start":13661.383,"end":13682.174,"text":"面帶笑容地爭取善意,對不對?就不會吵架也不會兇你嘛,對不對?但是你心裡面回答的不是不,就是研究,你太厲害了。有沒有這一招?你自己感覺咧?我回答不的不多啦。另外是不是請觀光署署長?部長最近臺北跟上海論壇,"},{"start":13691.328,"end":13710.421,"text":"我最近這兩天有一個感觸跟想法他們可以用副市長或是市長來這邊跟台北市交流我們也可以去對方交流你看那個最近馬祖連江縣的縣委書記還有馬委的縣委書記陸續到馬祖來參訪他們也是用次團體的名義過來我們也可以用次團體名義過去我想"},{"start":13720.68,"end":13745.383,"text":"我們觀光署跟對方、跟中國大陸應該沒有正常的管道。那如果能夠用署長、副署長、用觀光旅遊次團體的名義,帶個副理事長、理事長到對面去,正面跟他溝通。我上海剛回來沒多久,"},{"start":13746.863,"end":13765.775,"text":"上海他們那邊的人很希望來台灣來觀光,他說我們團不放,我們團沒有不放啊,所以我們王老部長在場嘛,有放啊,他冒了風險放啦,放的問題是大陸又不放,那你這樣子沒有一個交流的管道,"},{"start":13767.172,"end":13781.784,"text":"這樣下去我覺得不是好事。我們拿錢去買觀光,你看拿很多的補助,讓韓國、東南亞國家的人進來。這不是正道。部長我覺得你可以向上面反映一下。"},{"start":13782.665,"end":13811.969,"text":"好不好?有沒有這樣的想法?包括有一些次團體,你說公協會其實他們跟對岸的交流其實都有在做,不是沒有。但是觀光署是比較官方的身份,那或許對岸不一定接受。但是他們官方的過來我們接受啦。我們其實都一直滿開放的。我們也用官方的過去嘛,你先把先試一下看看嘛,你不是怎麼行呢?是不是?我們探尋看有沒有這樣的機會。你看八月到九月到現在?"},{"start":13813.511,"end":13834.823,"text":"我們進門馬祖開放,來的人大概不過不到6000人。對,在馬祖的狀況是比較少,一天差不多100人。這一次當然我們也建議蔣萬安市長能夠跟華元副市長借著這樣的交流平台,能夠讓一些人過來。這樣對軍事的對視不會那麼緊張那麼嚴重。"},{"start":13841.929,"end":13859.746,"text":"那其實我談到燈會,我在這邊質詢了10年了齁,這個燈會你看,從高雄、台中、桃園,桃園現在明年要組,今年是明年嘛齁?對,明年,明年2月。那桃園辦燈會,又等於是第二輪了。"},{"start":13863.493,"end":13876.363,"text":"我請問周署長,這個各縣是輪流辦了還是就是這幾個6州在辦?他也是提出申請,然後我們兩年宣布一次,那2026,2025在桃園,2026在嘉義,2027是在苗栗。那有沒有機會輪到金門、馬祖、澎湖?"},{"start":13885.973,"end":13914.647,"text":"因為它是大型的計畫,我們目前來講因為要再搭飛機、再搭船的話,因為我們在...你去講沒有就好了嘛,沒有機會嘛,是不是?部長你不要笑啊,你心裡面也是講不啦,對不對?主要是考慮到超大型,那算超大型活動。那我講了嘛,你既然沒有大型、超大型的話,金門、馬祖、澎湖,這是亞細亞的孤兒啊,離島中的離島,是不是?"},{"start":13915.607,"end":13934.405,"text":"有其他的活動有其他活動那你們要準備補助我們馬祖今天要辦燈會你準備補助我們多少如果地方舉辦的話我們通案是縣市政府的話是餘率可以兩百萬兩百萬辦什麼買那個小孩子提的燈籠是不是"},{"start":13935.526,"end":13945.788,"text":"不會啦,我們在這次的桃園的主燈裡面有一個設計也有馬祖的燈。沒有,我嚴肅的跟你報告,你最少要給500萬,因為你這裡都是3800萬,這幾個六都啊,都3800、3800從2020開始,每年都是3800、3800,你最少給500萬,你要不要給我承諾?"},{"start":13966.192,"end":13987.523,"text":"我過兩天要審理預算了,我準備把3800給他砍掉我跟你講,我內心的事情是這樣。朝委會不太開心,不要啦。朝委不會不開心,朝委一定支持我的,是不是?我們來立法院也是有個先來後到,我想我們朝委對我是非常尊重,不是很尊重。"},{"start":13989.889,"end":13999.841,"text":"這樣子好不好,那個跟學生們報告一下,就是燈會的部分,我們跟連江縣政府提出來的時候,我們盡全力來協調。已經協調過了,是你們告訴他數字。"},{"start":14004.417,"end":14031.593,"text":"你應該叫他計畫提出來嘛,是350、400或是450、500,你告訴他我大概給你多少。我們來看一下是不是有等於是馬祖燈會以外的相關的周邊一起來。針對燈會齁,因為各縣市的比例其實都一樣。我知道,我現在講離島,我們離島永遠沒機會輪到對不對。你今天給馬祖五百萬,明年給金門五百萬,甚至更多一點,房屋更多一點,我都同意。"},{"start":14032.193,"end":14057.203,"text":"登會的部分就這樣,但其他的部分我們再來想辦法。從其他的部分來想辦法。這有預算的勒,每年都有預算,連續薪金費,每年都在編的勒,是不是?你要我對這個動手嗎?不要吧。我內心也不想,我也很掙扎。從周邊來協調。對,我們來協助,你能夠達成效果,這樣比較重要。會啦會啦,好不好。你答應我至少給個五百萬。"},{"start":14059.622,"end":14084.128,"text":"你點頭啦,這點頭你不是跟我...這不好說,我們從周邊來協助。我上來執行你就面帶微笑,對不對?內心的世界又是講不,或是研究。我不會協助馬祖宇先生,這個沒問題。好不好,你就給我個面子,不管怎麼樣給個五百萬。我希望風風光光的,我也快下台了,對不對?"},{"start":14085.376,"end":14095.544,"text":"做熱鬧一點好不好,你不要每年都這樣。我們也有管理處在那邊,臨江縣政府的成就也是我們馬館處的成就。我們掛那個燈都不支了,馬館處另外的協助,馬館處有他的經費,你什麼東西都馬館處,馬館處有多少錢?去掉用人費沒剩多少錢?然後都是鐵的,鋼鐵、鐵不能吃的,都是資本門你知道嗎?"},{"start":14115.098,"end":14139.751,"text":"不能吃的,消耗不了好不好?署長有時候會協助。署長齁,你給五百萬齁,這個你答應我,你要做到齁。好,另外我又回頭到前天跟部長質詢的我們的包機,高雄到馬祖的包機。這個第三階段,署長,我跟部長報告過囉,部長說要跟你商量啦齁。"},{"start":14144.929,"end":14154.656,"text":"我早上打電話去觀光署,他們說什麼兩百萬啊?他不知道有這麼一回事,也不知道前面給了我們多少,他也不知道。"},{"start":14155.626,"end":14179.892,"text":"怎麼可以這樣?部長回去,或是部長在那邊接受質詢你們底下都沒聽。您直接打給署長,不用打給觀光署啦。不要打給觀光署?你直接打給署長就好。打給署長喔?是是是。署長你今年講說沒錢嘛對不對?我們一直擠啊一直擠啊,抽了兩百萬出來嘛對不對?那你明年新的預算錢太多太多啦,多少錢我跟你講齁?"},{"start":14182.721,"end":14208.229,"text":"各特色活動補助編列了3.35億,國外包機郵輪補助4623萬。這是非常多的活動,包括我們台灣觀光聯力還有我們各…3.35億,200萬在裡面是拔他一根毛而已啊,你瞭解沒有?"},{"start":14209.215,"end":14229.266,"text":"所以部長,我前天問部長,部長說還要跟你商量咧?我如果是部長的話,陳委員,佈置兩百萬,給你三百萬。部長你要有這個gas、魄力嘛對不對?你這樣我才瞧得起你啊,我已經很看得起你了,但是我希望你再加油好不好?好、好、好。這個、這個周署長。"},{"start":14230.56,"end":14258.96,"text":"第三階段的包機拜託您成全。我在20幾號在民航局我要主持,我跟許智傑委員共同主持馬高航線後續的事宜,要把它轉為固定航班。我們也希望促成。你不要光希望啊,你光希望有什麼用?大家都在希望,你也是一顆螺絲釘欸。你這個螺絲釘把它釘上去的話就固定了嘛,好不好?把它變成固定航班。署長有沒有問題?"},{"start":14261.4,"end":14278.028,"text":"有沒有問題啊?固定航班不是他管的。我知道啊,那個不要啦,我問你就好了,時間到了,我不好意思,召委一直看我。有沒有問題?第三階段這個你幫忙處理。你們現在20幾號要開會嘛,那就看會議的結論怎麼樣?會議結論?我是主席啊,我把結論先告訴你。"},{"start":14287.226,"end":14293.712,"text":"我已經把結論告訴你啦。看你要還是不要嘛。好不好。好啦,謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。好,謝謝陳委員。那個馬祖登會承諾的錢要到,因為我們聽到了齁。齁。"},{"start":14310.66,"end":14318.126,"text":"好接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前委員不在有請羅廷惟委員發言好謝謝召委有請部長陳部長"},{"start":14333.231,"end":14359,"text":"部長好部長來自台中尤其是烏日市你的選區希望部長時時刻刻都可以心中有台中幾個問題來請教一下部長其中第一個我們今年10月15我們有針對台中高鐵娛樂城新建國道1號的閘道可能性江啟臣副院長有在辦公室幫我們召開一個會議部長有出席應該還有印象吧部長有當中有幾個事項想問一下辦理的進度有沒有遇到困難"},{"start":14359.941,"end":14365.631,"text":"國道1號新增閘道連接高鐵特區的一個初步評估作業可行性的評估請問辦理了嗎?"},{"start":14367.485,"end":14394.633,"text":"報告委員這個部分可行性評估要地方來申請我想當時講到一百萬的一個評估經費剛剛學生委員講一個五百萬他不叫資深我不叫蔡沒關係我要一百就好了我想這個評估經費一百萬交通部是不是能夠幫忙一下報告委員這個評估的經費大家各方都有一定的計畫跟一定的比例地方政府要來提出來我想他們一定可以提出計畫他們提出來我們會協助"},{"start":14396.634,"end":14419.67,"text":"評估的經費只要他們願意提出是不是中央可以幫忙協助一下?但是我跟委員再報告一件事目前那個娛樂城啊他們自己對於周邊的整體的交圍的計畫他們自己有一筆預算那目前也交給台中市政府目前正在做整體的整個計畫其實我是比較建議就是說那個整體的計畫做完之後用哪裡真的有需要我們就來做"},{"start":14420.27,"end":14444.985,"text":"我知道沒關係那我如果他們提出其他的計畫希望後來你可以幫忙你可以幫忙協助嗎好謝謝你的承諾那另外我想再跟你提到我們面對這個後裏啊麗寶樂園的周邊交通建設案態度是100分我們看到你們很積極的請國家之力來辦理但是現在面對高鐵娛樂城我想不只是現在我們遇到的國一增加閘道還有所謂的鐵路高架化烏日"},{"start":14445.425,"end":14456.639,"text":"到新烏日還有所謂的大慶、久德這個部分之前你擔任議員的時候我們也都會勘過當時在你之前你是我議員的學長我們會勘的時候應該是20幾億高價化到現在要50幾億高價化再不做會後悔"},{"start":14463.207,"end":14480.206,"text":"所以我想這個部分中央有中央的規定你們也跟我多次講你們就是要按照現在的規定做這樣子的一個財政的一個分配只能夠給予這樣子的補助我能夠體諒但是你能不能跟我確定你們現在能夠補助多少"},{"start":14481.026,"end":14500.033,"text":"報告委員這個金額大家還要再細算但目前的進度是這樣中央對於這個建設是相當的支持願意支持嗎?願意支持所以你公開承認你們支持願意給予補助我們一定會全力支持這個烏日這一段的鐵路的高架化那目前整個可行性研究地方正在修正我們還在等他回文"},{"start":14500.473,"end":14522.568,"text":"我想不只是新烏日站的升等為一級車站喔還有這個大慶站到新烏日的這個高價化我希望早一天喔農曆年前部長我已經有約你們辦公室我們是不是主動早一天去會刊把這個整體的交通一併的到位去看到不管是高鐵漁樂城不管是新烏日還有升級成一級站或者是大慶車站的一個高價化我們一起來看可以嗎?報告委員現在在"},{"start":14523.348,"end":14524.909,"text":"另外部長我想請問我們出國回國都會遇到一個問題行李轉盤等候的行李時間請問你認為等行李這件事情多久算合理?"},{"start":14550.721,"end":14574.187,"text":"對,你回國以後等行李轉盤的行李啊。對一般的旅客來說,如果到了行李轉盤的旁邊,等超過10分鐘就會覺得太久。好,搭飛機到日本關西機場跟大家分享,等行李的時間大概20分鐘。那你知道從關西機場回到台灣,等行李大概要等多久嗎?這個我不曉得。前兩天我一個朋友出國回來,50分鐘。"},{"start":14576.884,"end":14600.943,"text":"問題的癥結點在哪裡?我們先不要講我那個朋友可能是個案我們來看審計部的一個資料審計部資料包括媒體都有報導2023年5月至今日今年的3月各班機抵達行李經一個小時以上到行李轉盤的共有8612架次其中有幾個原因第一來機晚到"},{"start":14601.764,"end":14619.659,"text":"第二、飛機管制第三、班機調度第四、嚴重暴漲的原因是地勤作業我沒有要責備地勤人員但是地勤人員的人力不足早就多次被媒體報導出來我們是不是應該要來解決這個問題另外我再講的是"},{"start":14623.562,"end":14649.879,"text":"現在所有的人在這現場你們有沒有出過國大家有沒有這樣子的一個印象我自己有一個感覺啊我八點的飛機要飛日本我五點要到桃園機場我恨不得在台中就能搭機但是不行現在只能到桃園我們希望現階段到桃園就是三個小時前要到桃園機場check in那請問一下我幾點要出發我三點要搭坐車"},{"start":14651.325,"end":14656.092,"text":"到桃園機場沒有高鐵座啊所以我等個晚上不用睡覺"},{"start":14657.421,"end":14682.991,"text":"我等於提早能夠出發對我來說我就是不用睡覺來換這對旅客來說是一個很痛苦的事情到底check in的時間能不能提前縮短這部分來做一個研擬到後續我們拿到行李這個部分能不能縮短時效這部分我希望桃園機場是不是未來能夠給我們一個機會把這個部分來做一個專案然後來做一個檢討"},{"start":14683.891,"end":14689.138,"text":"三點出發我之前出國也是這樣子經驗一模一樣一模一樣當然就是整夜不用睡嘛尤其要帶小朋友小朋友也更辛苦一點我曾經有一次為了這樣子我八點吃安眠藥啦"},{"start":14702.555,"end":14704.697,"text":"所以我們一直在努力嘛之前我就在講台中人盼著虎航日本線希望已經幻滅啦明年呢"},{"start":14722.535,"end":14745.006,"text":"明年呢?台中武航?我想台中武航這個部分還是希望不要只飛兩個夏季航班然後又不飛。台中人要的是定期穩定的航班而不是夏季限定的航班。這個部分我想多方來做檢討。當然桃園機場可以再做一個檢討部分。我們台中機場是不是能夠增加更多的航線?能夠彌補這些時差?"},{"start":14746.967,"end":14762.181,"text":"這個都是我們要努力的但是我剛剛所提到的臺中要增加航班航線桃園機場是不是能夠縮短這些時間能夠讓旅客出門的時候開心而不是第一天很痛苦第一天只想到飯店效率上的提高是必然要做的"},{"start":14762.501,"end":14790.828,"text":"這個部分您願意同意後續你會再追蹤這個部分嗎?審計部的報告寫得很清楚喔心理轉盤等的時間高達一個小時8000多班次能看嗎?桃機針對這個議題其實也會來做精進他們針對地勤也好或者航空公司也會找來再開會再做精進的計畫我想時間有限我不想再念網路上的一些文章跟抱怨文其中不乏有地勤人員的一些抱怨文"},{"start":14791.488,"end":14791.588,"text":"好謝謝羅委員"},{"start":14821.471,"end":14821.811,"text":"接下來有請張祺凱委員發言陳部長"},{"start":14857.406,"end":14873.025,"text":"部長我現在開始要談一個非常重要也是非常急迫性的重要政策我們要一起來搶救基隆港基隆港會因為事件整個回港嗎?整個港口會毀滅掉嗎?"},{"start":14875.563,"end":14897.369,"text":"基隆港長期以來都是我們台灣很重要的經濟命脈,到目前為止喔,很多國際的郵輪停靠的都是在基隆港,對我們經濟、國際觀光影響非常的大。我現在先問你一個很重要的問題,最近啊,12月11號晚上,陽明海運有一艘10萬"},{"start":14900.963,"end":14919.51,"text":"頓擊的移民輪最近在基隆港要進港的時候發生了擱淺。部長裡面注意到這個案子。他後來出動了四艘的拖船救援才緊急把他拖走了。他是10萬頓擊的。"},{"start":14923.755,"end":14949.415,"text":"我後續沒有追嗎?請去趕快把他追清楚。重點是什麼?重點是什麼?柏定,最近世界如果真的在基隆的話,他這個運天然氣的天然氣船是18萬噸,一個10萬噸的,就賠不出來啦,不死,不死點精出不來就不會死。現在一個基隆港,"},{"start":14950.39,"end":14977.542,"text":"可能馬上要面臨因為市街有長長高達重達18萬噸的天然氣船要進出我來講更嚴重的問題他最近就要做環評了在上次環評的時候市街環評的時候交通部的台灣港務股份有限公司具名在會上提出了三個非常重要的建議"},{"start":14978.991,"end":14989.865,"text":"呼籲大家一定要注意一共那時候曾經做了真實超船模擬測試這個非常重要"},{"start":14992.553,"end":15020.345,"text":"二十五次的真實超船模擬這個測試,這幾個二十五次裡面有一次就出現碰撞事件了。還有兩次是高危險都差一點撞到這個西邊或者東邊的這個防波堤。五天這樣有危險嗎?二十五次一次擦撞兩次高危險二十五分之三有危險嗎?有危險嗎?你站在交通部長的這個這麼重要的位置"},{"start":15021.84,"end":15033.076,"text":"如果世界做好之後一部天然氣船18萬噸的一年裡面可能就有一次會是碰撞的兩次高危險嚴不嚴重"},{"start":15036.065,"end":15062.402,"text":"報告委員我們當然希望風險要降到最低對交通部的立場來說整個基隆港的營運是相當的重要所以未來他們在環評的過程當中當然交通部這邊也會提出我們的看法那包含港務公司您所提供的資料也有看到港務公司其實也有提出他們的看法這個部分我們都會提給這個環評的單位讓他們去做審慎的評估部長你判到二十分之三、二十五分之三也不嚴重"},{"start":15065.006,"end":15093.308,"text":"這個實際當時的狀況我不瞭解所以現在在這邊沒有啊這個機率啊實際的狀況就是有一次是擦撞啊碰撞啊兩次差一點碰撞啊這個是模擬的狀態這個是模擬的狀態可是跟實際到時候當然就是要避免說真實發生的事情只要真實發生那不得了欸18萬噸的天然氣欸我剛一開始為什麼給你看一個例子是10萬噸的10萬噸是一個撇沒串的木屍殭層四部拖吊船去掉啊"},{"start":15095.302,"end":15115.184,"text":"報告委員他就是模擬的狀態之後會有一些狀況那就這個狀況其實台灣港澳公司也有提出一些未來可以改進的方向跟他們講說要怎麼做未來會更安全這是模擬的意義啦所以一個很清楚部長很清楚的表達在最近如果開環評的時候交通部"},{"start":15115.905,"end":15130.36,"text":"要清楚的表達你們對這個事情的後續,還有它危險性的處理方式,對不對?這個非常明確,這是第一個,對不對?這個答案是有的。好,來我們來看,它有兩點是很重要的。剛才講的是說,有可能會碰撞。"},{"start":15131.201,"end":15156.731,"text":"他還提了第二點啊,他說等這個世界如果真的做好之後,天然氣的那個傳進去之後啊,會影響到港內的卸貨跟整個卸貨的停泊這個作業。這個提出來之後你們有沒有去做怎麼樣改善或者要怎麼樣因應?提出來這個之後其實我們因應的方式就是說他未來是在外港,他不會進內港。LNG船他會是在外港不會進來裡面。"},{"start":15158.558,"end":15160.819,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、交通部長陳世凱、董事長陳世凱、董事長"},{"start":15182.369,"end":15198.759,"text":"我們在2021年的9月份有發生基隆港碼頭起重機那個掉壁一個墜落事件大家可能還記憶猶新心有遺跡那現在那天你們就提了交通部提出了一個提醒說"},{"start":15201.496,"end":15228.906,"text":"當天然氣的這個運輸船靠港的時候你在卸貨的時候旁邊如果有大型的這個郵輪或者大型的這個船經過這會有海浪的一個輕波作用嘛這很危險啊有專家王國采王前部長在探討這是很危險的事情啊這你們在提醒他會不會重演2021年9月份的時候碼頭起重機那個整個掉幣墜落的那個事情"},{"start":15230.442,"end":15237.032,"text":"這個叫星波作用嘛。那只有兩種解決方案喔。第一個,那時候大的船就不要進來了。阿我幹這樣站起來了。"},{"start":15238.786,"end":15261.187,"text":"台灣有那麼多國際的觀光船遊輪都要在基隆港可是因為你世界你要避免你要避免這個天然氣船沒有沒有問題所以你要減少或者讓國際遊輪不要到基隆港去那基隆就完蛋了台灣的觀光旅遊也會受到非常大波折這一點點嘛對不對那第一個還有一個方法嘛你要注意到他的安全嘛你們後續有做了怎麼樣檢討"},{"start":15262.088,"end":15286.588,"text":"報告委員其實這些都是事先提醒啦在環評的時候我們都會把這些意見提供出來那未來當然就會避免包含說第一他不可以在尖峰的時間進來不要影響到我們一般的商船的營運那第二在惡劣的氣候底下他也不能夠進來這個到時候我們也都會做限制所以部長再談下來你看為了一個世界對基隆港的發展經濟的發展觀光的衝擊有多大"},{"start":15287.185,"end":15312.391,"text":"報告委員我們現在所提醒的就是未來不要造成影響所以他如果不要做不要做世界不要做在那裡基隆還有全台灣的觀光經濟就不會受影響啊所以這是一個重要的決策關鍵點喔所以齊凱今天一開始本期就要提的這是一個重要的關鍵點今天談的是一個基隆港會不會滅港而且他有急迫性因為馬上就要做環評了所以保定是"},{"start":15313.427,"end":15326.897,"text":"交通部長要管觀光啊對不對而且這個牽扯到經濟發展整個基隆港歷史悠久的台灣的經濟命脈觀光的命脈我定你要保住喔不要害因為你沒有講話或者是嚴重的失職導致"},{"start":15327.762,"end":15345.803,"text":"基隆港我們不會讓它有負面的影響啦負面的影響發生之前我們都會事先提醒並且事先避免今天該講今天我提的這三點要怎麼解決該提醒的你知道下次環評委員會交通部一定要去講這個內容我都會提出來內容一定要講這個是一個第二個更具體的來我提三個點第一個"},{"start":15348.276,"end":15358.139,"text":"二、請責令港務局針對四階計畫興建期間跟完工以後港區安全的維護跟保障問題進行通盤的調查跟研究跟規劃。"},{"start":15367.262,"end":15389.381,"text":"港務公司針對4階計畫實施以後對基隆港的民用商用的漁民生計這個會衝擊到漁民的生計喔休旋的旅遊還有整個運輸的接駁等相關的要進行通盤的研究跟計畫而且提出計畫可以齁好第二個禁令狀第三相關報告要現期就完成完成之前"},{"start":15390.442,"end":15410.774,"text":"相關的問題要獲得解決之前,解決之前,問題提出來解決之前,針對世界計畫的環評會議等基於保障基隆港的市民安全、生計還有全國運輸的安全環境的保護前提之下,交通部不能隨便去點頭去答應。"},{"start":15412.162,"end":15437.861,"text":"可以做得到嗎?報告委員,我們尊重環評的那個程序啦。不是,他沒有達到你剛講的這些,你交通部不能去點頭答應啊。對不對?當然如果解決你的問題就可以啊。阿沒有解決,我怎麼說呢?基隆港真的就沒辦法。對台灣那個整個觀光經濟衝擊陣。我們會要求他們來承諾。蛤?我們會要求,在環評的過程當中我們會要求他們要承諾。要求承諾齁?好來,那我們來談。相關報告你什麼時候可以給我?你們那兩個報告。"},{"start":15439.83,"end":15460.098,"text":"二個月的時間好不好?兩個月齁?OK好好謝謝部長這個事情真的很重要齁部長你當過發言人啦齁你算是比較跨部會的去看這個事情不能夠國家為了說天然氣一定要過電一定要過結果沒有注意到安全的問題特別是對我們全國"},{"start":15461.806,"end":15478.394,"text":"供獻在經濟跟民生在觀光有那麼大的一個基隆港我們一定要努力不要因為錯誤的政策特別是不要因為交通部該講的話沒有去講喔環評一下就過了呼哩轟隆世界就弄起來了結果弄到後來基隆港是沒港的好不好好我們一起努力謝謝好謝謝張委員"},{"start":15487.042,"end":15508.197,"text":"好,接下來請高津素梅委員。高津素梅,高津素梅委員不在。有請秋洛華委員發言。謝謝主席。主席有請交通部陳部長還有觀光署周署長。周署長。委員好。"},{"start":15514.82,"end":15519.755,"text":"部長好,署長好,先請教部長及署長,您們本身有宗教信仰嗎?"},{"start":15523.122,"end":15545.447,"text":"兩位都有因為對於宗教信仰要保持尊重的態度本席是不會多問今天要和部長還有署長討論觀光的部分其中本席想針對穆斯林認證的問題就叫部長還有署長本席有看到觀光署在2011年開始每年就有編列小額的預算委託中國回教協會推動清真的認證署長您知道嗎?"},{"start":15548.535,"end":15571.483,"text":"全力在推動預算有限那我們有兩個協會一個回教協會一個穆斯林協會一個回教協會一個穆斯林協會2017年起蔡政府當時就有推動新南向的政策穆斯林友善環境也是重點的政策的項目那經濟部國貿局也有委託外貿協會成立台灣清真推廣中心署長沒錯吧"},{"start":15572.443,"end":15596.336,"text":"對,我也拜託,因為他的主管機關是在經濟部,那麼我們是拜託相關的,包括他的餐廳、廚房的認證。是,餐廳、廚房。對,我們有分時間。那醫師人有上環境的認證的單位是否符合標準是由外貿協會來做認定嗎?他們要看什麼太陽,因為基本上我們用餐是一個很重要的。"},{"start":15596.736,"end":15599.997,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":15615.184,"end":15637.987,"text":"東協10國,南亞6國,加上紐澳總共是18國。各國所佔的穆斯林人數大概是多少?署長,您知道嗎?對,像泰國的話,它有將近700萬是穆斯林。對,其實像泰國是一個佛教國家,它仍然有很高的比例。是,除了我們剛才就是談到的這些穆斯林國家的人口數嘛,那其中最多的是印度尼西亞、巴基斯坦"},{"start":15638.867,"end":15665.894,"text":"還有印度、孟加拉、馬來西亞,這樣子算下來大約的人數是8億以上。那部長和署長知道哈拉跟清真它的差異在哪裡嗎?這個我不知道,署長知道嗎?哈拉和清真,因為剛才署長有提到在有它的部分。對,所以有一個是,我們是中文的翻譯不同啦。那他們不吃的食物有哪,主要是哪一個?"},{"start":15667.848,"end":15670.069,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署及所屬單位預算"},{"start":15686.882,"end":15688.124,"text":"有一個是由中央廚房還有一個是"},{"start":15701.101,"end":15725.858,"text":"哈拉認證那穆斯林餐廳是穆斯林開設的餐廳那穆斯林友善的餐廳他是可以賣穆斯林他們禁止飲食的餐廳但需要經過嚴密的區隔哈拉認證的部分跟委員報告一下就是在我們叫做在做這個生命結束的時候他要送送可蘭金是對他是很嚴謹的SOP是對"},{"start":15726.838,"end":15751.341,"text":"所以一般來講哈拉認證的餐廳的要求是比較高是那我們進來台灣我們要發展觀光那本席要舉幾個例子給部長還有署長知道我們來看到那這間位於宜蘭的餐廳他是穆斯林友善的認證的餐廳那當就我們從照片來看他本身也有販賣豬肉沒有做到區隔處理食材那看起來要他們要做區隔也是不容易的那我們再看到另外一家餐廳"},{"start":15753.124,"end":15780.701,"text":"這也是位於宜蘭的餐廳他一樣也是穆斯林友善認證的餐廳他一樣也有販售豬肉他真的能做到食材區隔嗎那我們再看下一家苗栗的餐廳他也是同樣他是穆斯林友善認證那他也有販售豬肉那我們再看到另外一家嘉義的餐廳他也是獲得穆斯林友善的餐廳但一樣也有販賣豬肉那部長署長這樣子會不會太離譜了如果是有具體的話我們就要求下架"},{"start":15781.181,"end":15805.115,"text":"那這還不是最離譜的,我們來看什麼是最離譜的。對,他們有一些很嚴格的要求的。是,我們看到還有一個位於嘉義縣的餐廳,它是在觀光署的網站上面有公布,它也是唯一一家獲得HALA餐廳認證的。那餐廳是不可以出現豬肉的嘛,它是最嚴謹的。結果它的菜單有什麼,署長部長您有看到嗎?有,有看到豬肉。有看到豬肉。對,那這樣子,"},{"start":15808.893,"end":15811.374,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":15824.54,"end":15825.961,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":15843.608,"end":15863.538,"text":"我們再盤點一下我又要跟22個縣市政府他們再討論一下是全面清查那如果這個個案的部分我們馬上下架馬上下架對我們要查證一下馬上下架那為什麼會有這麼離譜的事情因為我們的餐廳也確實有百頁啦那很多人對牧師的認知啊也不是那麼嚴謹"},{"start":15865.039,"end":15869.544,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":15888.841,"end":15911.404,"text":"所以有些穆斯林的餐廳他只要這樣提出的就好。只就像署長您提到有些人他吃過邊疏那有些是完全過完瓢盆他都不能使用到那這些就是我們所提到的像哈拉跟清真他們也是非常嚴謹的去做去的。對我們講說屠宰的過程中還要送金然後很嚴格的標準是那這個我想說這個還是要按照穆斯林的要求標準來做。"},{"start":15912.806,"end":15920.355,"text":"為什麼會有這麼離譜的是那剛才這六間餐廳他都是透過伊斯蘭商務發展有限公司所論證那部長和署長你們可以看到這個他們這兩張圖的差異性嗎?"},{"start":15925.537,"end":15927.198,"text":"三天就可以查證了,這看起來在台北嘛。"},{"start":15952.365,"end":15972.628,"text":"委員所講的這個個案,他們可以快速來查證。因為這是外貿協會嘛,所以我馬上就直接去跟他們聯繫。因為那個在觀光署的網站上面,他是不是參考台灣清真的推廣中心的網站,他們已經有宣告,就是不擔保網站內容的正確性,觀光署也要對網站內容來做檢討。"},{"start":15974.069,"end":15990.707,"text":"我們也看到這個對外的貿易發展協會他們也有提出在110年的時候5月6號發文他的發文字號是為外專制第1102301234號他的內容有提到就是他們為了要配合清真寺或是回教團體認證請教長簽名"},{"start":15993.59,"end":15994.391,"text":"邀請邮號委員發言。"},{"start":16035.349,"end":16036.074,"text":"謝謝趙偉,有請部長。好,陳部長。"},{"start":16043.875,"end":16050.819,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":16067.51,"end":16093.312,"text":"國民黨智庫國中基金會所提供的一個建議書、建言書那現在是12月18號那想請教一下那時候所提供的這個建議書那你看完之後你覺得有什麼部分你會來去做一個改進或是在觀光的部分策略上提供一個簡短的一個具體回應報告委員所提到的這個觀光資源整合不足的部分我們最近也都在做檢討跟觀光署都有在做檢討"},{"start":16094.373,"end":16122.572,"text":"數位技術應用不足的部分其實目前正在努力推進當中不過還是不夠還是不夠這個我們會繼續做那國際宣傳的力道這個跟預算當然也有關係但我們現在宣傳的方向可能會稍稍做調整例如說有很多委員在建議就是有一些網紅啦或者是一些有流量的一些藝人等等之類的可能會比更大型的這些宣傳效果還好一點點那我們的比例上可能也會來做調整"},{"start":16123.092,"end":16146.758,"text":"那法規的部分我們有應該也會來做檢討如果尤其是業者如果有反映業者或者是相關工協會有來反映說哪些法規跟不上時代了該修我們會來修那本期還是希望針對這個五大觀光挑戰那如果說都已經有做一個充分檢討的話是不是就提供給本委員會還有一份書面資料針對這五題的一個一個具體的一個內容"},{"start":16149.519,"end":16169.912,"text":"接下來本席還是要針對雙城論壇的部分那像未來的話部長你有沒有可能有考慮為了我們的台灣的觀光產業還來傾覆大陸一攤來談是不是如何能夠來做這個兩邊就邀請這個大陸人也可以來台灣做觀光旅遊"},{"start":16171.205,"end":16194.842,"text":"當然,如果說推廣觀光的部分是交通部很重要的責任,所以如果有需要到什麼地方去推廣觀光,我們都很願意去做。所以部長是願意復路來溝通這個政策?這個部分也要看兩岸的政治氣氛。你知道過去來講的話,這個部長去中國大陸復路來做這個政策的溝通,你有印象嗎?"},{"start":16196.095,"end":16222.254,"text":"我之前是沒有印象。其實是有的。包括在羅英雪法國部長也親赴大陸曾經溝通過這個公共打擊犯罪的這個部分。那所以部長如果可以的話,你看這個往前這個包括陳菊,還包括賴清德總統,還包括謝長迪,還包括蔡英文整他們都曾經俘虜過。那你有去過中國大陸嗎?我以前有去過。有去過哪些城市?"},{"start":16225.287,"end":16246.438,"text":"廣東、上海。上海。那所以說在這次雙城論壇的部分,那像他們這次所提到的之後會來台灣旅遊的部分,那交通部這邊有準備好了嗎?其實台灣一直都很歡迎所有的觀光客來台灣,都有準備。好,那直接問這個,那剛才許多偉也提到這個禁團令,"},{"start":16247.498,"end":16259.237,"text":"那其實中央雖然短暫的這個兩個月的這個開放,但事實上以這個疫情期間前這個進團令到現在差不多是四年十個月了。那預計什麼時候可以打開這個進團令?"},{"start":16260.385,"end":16288.274,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們滾動在檢討啦但是沒有一個預定的時間因為目前大家雖然今天在討論是說對岸有準備要開放團客來台灣的部分但也都還沒有定案所以我現在也沒有辦法很確定的跟委員報告那滾動檢討其實本席就是要針對滾動檢討這個部分那在今天的講法在之前的報導上或是像今天的回應上其實大家都聽的都是差不多的內容"},{"start":16288.934,"end":16310.73,"text":"那這個部分是等於是透過一個媒體去做呼籲但是本席要直接就交部長那在今年那曾經與陸委會主委或是國安會秘書長還曾經針對這個淨團令的這個議題還交通部部長這邊從你接任到現在有沒有主動提出或是主動針對這個議題實際討論過我們有交換過意見那交換過意見在什麼時候什麼樣的一個會議上"},{"start":16318.816,"end":16337.342,"text":"參會不算喔?不是參會啦。對。正式的會議其實有一兩次。那是一個什麼樣的會議?就是我跟陸委會主委約碰面的。那我們有很多議題在討論。這是其中一項。不只是這個議題,那這是其中一項。那本期是要"},{"start":16338.542,"end":16353.739,"text":"表示就是說這個進團令、進團令其實像剛才洪孟凱委員所提到其實許多的旅行業者包括相關民宿業者他們其實還是會需要這個兩岸去做一個正常的交流"},{"start":16354.46,"end":16370.142,"text":"那如果說今天現團令進團令的部分,它還是停在一個沒有辦法實際上有共識有進展的一個情況,那這個議題等同於就是一直不會開放。當然說這個問題也不是出在於這個部長您啦,"},{"start":16370.583,"end":16400.166,"text":"但是我是在想如果今天來講有心有意要為了這個我國的台灣的這個包括旅遊觀光的部分能夠來去做提升的話那其實是需要實質討論的那陸委會或是包括國安會秘書長也有針對這個部分你有跟他討論過嗎我們碰面的時候有講到這件事那他們有在兩岸的各種管道上有實際上要來討論或是釋出三頁的問題嗎除了媒體放話之外"},{"start":16402.231,"end":16408.707,"text":"所以你等於是表達了他還希望解除淨產率的一個看法嗎?"},{"start":16409.722,"end":16431.755,"text":"我們當然希望促進觀光啦,在觀光的部分我們希望能夠……那切入的角度的話是表達希望能夠解除這個淨團令嗎?也是在瞭解啦,也是在瞭解說目前的狀況底下那…因為本席還是要表達的是說,交通部的立場應該是希望來解除這個淨團令才對啦,當然應該責任不在你。"},{"start":16432.515,"end":16453.553,"text":"那如果說今天來講你表達了這個立場如果說是第一要先確定是明確的你是表達這個立場沒錯嗎我希望整個那個觀光能夠更多的人所以說你要提出這個需求那他們才要去陸委會去做溝通啊我們都有提出這樣的檢討對所以說你是有提出這樣的檢討希望檢出淨團令嗎"},{"start":16455.701,"end":16470.356,"text":"沒有說一定要解除淨團令,我們是希望對岸可不可以趕快解除他們的淨團令。所以說這都是對的,那我們來看一下數據。在馬英九執政時期的時候,來台的人數幾乎的話都是兩三百萬人,所以到四百萬人。"},{"start":16471.317,"end":16491.716,"text":"那所以說今天來講這個變成是無解啊那如果說今天你要把達這個立場你是要先站在是希望能夠檢讀這個淨團令還有讓兩岸之間就有一個正常的交流還有正常的觀光旅遊那陸委會他要適度的來去直接的去溝通這個議題啊那你知道陸委會主委有沒有實際上在溝通這個議題"},{"start":16492.937,"end":16521.223,"text":"這個我還真的是不曉得。不曉得嗎?所以說交通部表達立場但是陸委會主委卻沒有公布這個議題嗎?或許有啦但是這個部分那有的話因為這個議題重要他要透過什麼樣的管道?除了媒體之外?這個我不知道他們有什麼管道。好啦那本席還是要提出啦其實像以前你看到剛才的這個圖不管是陳菊賴清德總統曾經去中國大陸去做交流互訪"},{"start":16521.863,"end":16541.046,"text":"那如果說這個問題來講停留在這個媒體上面提說要對岸怎麼樣還台灣這邊怎麼樣那如果這邊不主動出擊的話那我想這個問題就無解了那在明年要達到的來台的這個目標啊那我相信的話其實還是困難重重的那最後"},{"start":16541.687,"end":16560.53,"text":"就是在這個來台的部分,等一下直接就叫一下署長,這個部分是不是包含來台的人數啊,這個700萬人啊,也會包含移工的數據在裡面?當然沒有,只要停留台灣這個超過90天,我們就不列入來台數。"},{"start":16562.284,"end":16588.693,"text":"好那沒關係那本席這邊所收到的消息啊還是東南亞的移工來台的部分他涵蓋在目前的這個數據裡面那絕對沒有絕對沒有絕對沒有好OK那沒關係那大致上如果有的話大約目前是七十幾萬到八十幾萬的這個移台移工在台人數那其中有一萬人口左右是本席這邊收到的消息那本席還是會後再跟你討論好了好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":16595.838,"end":16615.188,"text":"好,謝謝有委員。接下來有請黃珊珊委員發言。謝謝主席,我想請部長跟署長。陳部長、周署長。"},{"start":16622.125,"end":16650.352,"text":"是部長部長我想今天大家都很關心觀光的事情喔那昨天還聽到了雙城他們說上回上海會先開放團客那我也看到你的回應是他們全面開放團客我們才考慮把我們的禁團令給討論是當然希望他可以全面解除啦不要只有開上海這樣沒錯我們歡迎所有的人不管是誰禁團令的部分其實我們希望中國不要有禁團令也不要禁止他們的自由行來到台灣"},{"start":16651.152,"end":16671.113,"text":"好,所以你明年的預計的旅客人數還是樂觀的一千萬嗎?很多人說這樣不夠樂觀,但我覺得我們今天...這個有沒有包括大陸的旅客?我們今年沒有達到的目標我們明年要達到。現在已經達到疫情前大概六成左右,其實還有很大的成長空間吧?"},{"start":16672.385,"end":16696.4,"text":"對,我們基本上因為這樣算起來我們大概可以超過750萬。所以我問的是您這1000萬有沒有包括大陸的旅客?陸港澳的部分本來都含在裡面。含在裡面,所以要有陸港澳你才有1000萬,對吧?它的比例問題了。我簡單問一下署長,我們到底今年我們組織了多少次的海外旅展還有觀光的推廣活動?"},{"start":16697.561,"end":16712.699,"text":"我們的觀光推廣活動是不同市場,那旅展的話有幾場﹖總共多少場﹖觀光協會說的一年大概24場對不對﹖對,那是我們委託TVA做的,還有一些不是委託﹖好,那大概幾場﹖"},{"start":16715.102,"end":16716.744,"text":"關光多媒體資料庫網站開放資料給全世界來看。"},{"start":16730.06,"end":16754.277,"text":"因為我們剛剛講旅展是實體的要花很多錢去外面辦但是數位化是很重要的把台灣的所有的觀光資源包括節慶、觀光的業者還有景點資料我們都在這個網站上對嗎對包括年曆包括22個縣市政府的主要活動部長你有看過這個網站嗎這個網站我還沒有看過你沒看過好應該要把這些資源變成規格化數位化還有國際化的資料是"},{"start":16757.124,"end":16772.596,"text":"這個問題是我想問一下署長這個網站有在你的海外旅展上面做過推廣嗎我們在海外是單一市場有沒有推廣過這個網站在你的各式各樣的旅展推廣活動上沒有有還是沒有簡單講"},{"start":16774.804,"end":16778.227,"text":"現在的問題是觀光多媒體資料庫要進行國際化宣傳我們上去看了裡面的相關的觀光遊戲主題的業者資料"},{"start":16803.851,"end":16832.83,"text":"英文的多少?英文的部分都有齊全嗎?業者資料有沒有?署長你什麼都不知道嗎?新南向的相關的資源他有翻譯成新南向的語言版本嗎?也沒有也就是部長我要說的是我們有網站我們有資料開放最有趣的是部長可能要今天執行完你看一看因為"},{"start":16835.097,"end":16861.002,"text":"連審計部都看不下去啊台灣觀光資料庫資訊資料庫查核報告裡面說這些觀光多媒體資料有92%的資料沒有得到相關單位的授權所以沒有辦法開放一般使用者查詢、瀏覽而且有非常多的缺失也就是說你做了一個網站有很多的資料不能被查詢不能被瀏覽請問你做這個網站幹嘛"},{"start":16862.802,"end":16872.78,"text":"二、台灣這麼多景點的資料在一個網站上不能被查詢不能被瀏覽還被審計部糾正這個網站是做來幹嘛這是第二個"},{"start":16874.147,"end":16899.575,"text":"他們說已經改善了但是我們再去看裡面的英文網站還是沒有任何相關所謂的觀光遊戲主題的相關業者資料所以部長你今天看一看吧好如果這個這麼重要的數位化我們是一個智慧台灣的國家我們竟然把這些這麼重要的資料竟然是查不到是最後我還再講一下我們有書發布不是嗎是"},{"start":16900.735,"end":16914.471,"text":"相關的行銷資料你們做不到可能要請人家幫忙吧。最重要的是我們有沒有辦法讓國外的觀光客國外的業者看到合法、可信還有高品質的相關資料庫。"},{"start":16915.572,"end":16918.614,"text":"五年當時我相信在疫情的時候這很重要現在可能又覺得不重要了但是部長"},{"start":16935.206,"end":16961.58,"text":"這件事情我覺得非常簡單就是如果我們要建立一個平台因為現在的民眾自己上去找資料找訂房你知道這裡面資料庫裡面還有一個網站叫做旅宿網部長知道嗎?對這個我知道旅宿網如果上去我剛剛上去查了很久我想查去日月潭的飯店我怎麼查都給我的回答是搜尋結果是零"},{"start":16963.22,"end":16966.242,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":16985.775,"end":17001.622,"text":"而且是我們的觀光景點資料庫竟然沒有對外的這些英文的相關的Promote我實在不知道我們開放這個資料要幹嘛最後要給部長一個建議啦因為現在的法國他們是輔導所謂的旅遊新創業者他們來由新創業來做一個所謂的同業採購資訊平台"},{"start":17008.285,"end":17013.327,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、交通部部長陳世凱、"},{"start":17024.85,"end":17046.996,"text":"就像現在民眾會透過這些國際網站去訂房一樣省掉了那些所謂的轉接費用所以部長你去看一看法國做得很好法國的觀光應該是全世界最強的吧好不好然後我們台灣如果號稱數位產業智慧台灣這個網站我只能跟你說不及格到極點"},{"start":17048.815,"end":17061.117,"text":"我們台灣人尤其是我們看的最好笑的是這個網站的瀏覽率不到觀光署的官網的十分之一也就是我去看官網的人還比看這個網站的人多十倍"},{"start":17063.645,"end":17085.137,"text":"這個資源不是做得不夠好根本沒有人要上去查因為第一不友善第二沒資料第三功能上面就像剛剛署長說的我們不知道在提供什麼最重要的是如果透過數位你沒有相關國外的英文或其他的語言的話你乾脆不要設好了這是哪門子的資料庫"},{"start":17086.118,"end":17087.359,"text":"第二、隨便一個新創業者做的網站都會比你好。"},{"start":17111.178,"end":17135.235,"text":"最重要是現在請部長去查一下觀光署跟委外建制維護的所有的系統我希望看到你的成果報告我們所有的辦事處也都有獨立的也都有但是沒有整合不好使用或者是對台灣所有的東西data並沒有完善的放在裡面那真的還不如一個國際網站是好不好部長上去看一看語速網跟這個資料庫"},{"start":17136.823,"end":17150.288,"text":"都不及格。我希望在年底,沒有幾天了,明年開議之前,這個東西再上去看,至少要比現在好。請部長處理,好嗎?好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃委員。接下來有請葉元之委員發言。"},{"start":17177.262,"end":17177.722,"text":"呃,麻煩請部長陳部長"},{"start":17186.741,"end":17210.495,"text":"委員好部長好今天討論的觀光產業因為我們都知道今年觀光逆差可能非常高啦高達7000多億年初的時候交通部長設定一個來台的觀光客目標是1200萬看起來應該也跳票了啦當然有一些方法就看觀光署跟交通部願不願意做但我今天針對幾個議題跟您請教一下第一個"},{"start":17211.576,"end":17220.368,"text":"我們現在淘機每天設定的來台灣的每天的班機大概多少?航班大概幾架?設定的。是不是850架?"},{"start":17226.958,"end":17242.337,"text":"八百五十架是目前的這個上限上限嘛對但實際上到目前為止每一天大概幾架平均大概在六百五、七百大概六百五到六百九啦還不到七百啦是就差了大概一百五十架左右其實這個都是損失啦"},{"start":17242.697,"end":17258.288,"text":"為什麼因為部長那個不是目標那是上限上限對不能超過那個對因為他上限850嘛所以代表說我們的容納實際上是可以到850因為我們有很多參數嘛包括就是停機坪的數量跑道的容量或者是航廈容量對"},{"start":17258.948,"end":17283.448,"text":"各方面都算完之後我們應該是可以達到850的上限但是實際上因為媒合的問題會有耗損率所以大概航空公司申請有的時間帶他又放棄或幹嘛最後大概就只有650到690等於是耗損率非常高大概差了150架左右這150架的航班就是非常多的機位這些機位都有可能是可以讓外國旅客坐了來台灣"},{"start":17284.554,"end":17289.605,"text":"那航空公司認為說我現在因為我們現在出國的人數比回國還多啊"},{"start":17290.424,"end":17313.191,"text":"所以我要把我們的國人從國外載回來都已經可能沒位子了我怎麼還有機會去載外國的旅客呢所以第一件事情是我覺得桃機應該要去思考把這個媒合的效率提高你至少不可能說讓讓那個每天即將搬機650到690啊這實在是我覺得是一個很大空間的浪費啦不知道這能不能做到"},{"start":17315.632,"end":17338.574,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們每天850班是每天的航班的上限但是這個850班是每天全天24小時那基本上來講航空公司在安排航班的時候會配合他本身的航線特性去找這個時間所以我們會有所謂的時間帶的一個申請跟分配這我都了解現在的問題是"},{"start":17340.856,"end":17354.09,"text":"有的是你們因為參數的設定的問題他本來其他全部都符合但是就是因為卡到這個一個上限850架導致於申請不到反而讓我們的850也達不到我覺得這個是參數設定的問題這絕對有檢討的空間跟委員報告因為"},{"start":17360.616,"end":17386.71,"text":"監控的時間好的時段是每一個航空公司都想搶啦但是這個就會有它的一個限制所以有一個先來後到這樣的關係那基本上如果說沒有沒有有沒有調整的空間嗎你回答我這個問題嗎有沒有還是沒有辦法會滾動的調整時間帶的管理是每半年會來做檢討因為我們是看結果我們看結果我覺得你結果就是不好你應該要找出方法來啦"},{"start":17388.393,"end":17391.655,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":17409.725,"end":17413.549,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質"},{"start":17426.22,"end":17427.041,"text":"總經理你要負什麼責任嗎?要不要?"},{"start":17444.501,"end":17471.919,"text":"我如果可以找到,因為今天時間不夠,因為我還有別的議題要問。但如果我有機會,我利用集合管道提出解決方法,你要不要負責?要不要?跟委員報告,我們現在這個頒表是每半年會有冬季、夏季頒表。我都知道,你不要,因為我現在20分鐘我們就開一個研討會了啦。我今天是問一個態度,你有沒有要調整?對,這個部分我們來做調整。我也會跟桃集公司大家來做討論。怎麼樣再更優化,像委員所說的,如果有些參數的調整。部長,那你先給我們一個書面。"},{"start":17473.42,"end":17497.893,"text":"請他給我兩個禮拜給個書面檢討報告好不好?兩個禮拜那如果說到時候可以調整的話就總經理今天的態度在國會這樣一副吊噹噹的這種態度你怎麼處理?沒有啊他沒有要處理的意思啊他就是說這是因為什麼原因什麼原因什麼原因才造成這個狀況啊所以很應該啊人少沒進來無所謂啊態度就這樣啊只是想要更詳細的跟委員說明但是他有講到要滾動檢討"},{"start":17499.154,"end":17517.787,"text":"所以這個部分確實我們會做那兩個禮拜之內跟委員兩個禮拜之內一個完整要我們再來討論因為這個要講十幾分鐘啊這不可能三分鐘四分鐘講完我今天只要一個態度而已啊然後第二個就是現在很多旅館在反映喔因為今年明年1月1號開始準備要推一次性的備品了嘛對"},{"start":17518.487,"end":17541.872,"text":"就是要廢除一律性備品那現在還有人在講說未來有可能連瓶裝水都要求旅館不要提供這個是環境部環境部我知道因為這也是國際趨勢因為現在整個國際都在推ESG這我都了解但問題是現在網路上還有一般的民眾現在已經有個想法以為好像是只有國內的旅館是這樣子推甚至有人講說那這樣對國旅會雪上加霜"},{"start":17542.412,"end":17545.373,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加觀光品質並增加"},{"start":17567.017,"end":17584.535,"text":"但是你不能讓這種大家的輿論發酵好像是欸國內的旅館在找大家的麻煩其實這個對我們的國旅的發展也不利我現在只是說希望說觀光署可不可以訂一個宣傳的計畫就是跟國人講清楚當然你可以跟環境部要點錢啊或配合他們一起做宣傳"},{"start":17586.036,"end":17586.477,"text":"第三個問題,"},{"start":17601.96,"end":17619.582,"text":"以前在馬政府時代有一個觀光發展推動委員會我們簡稱叫政觀推不想知道嗎?我知道當時這個政觀推其實扮演了非常關鍵的推廣觀光的一個角色因為當時馬政府是想說我們用觀光立國希望能夠賺觀光外匯"},{"start":17622.154,"end":17641.279,"text":"當時因為很多部會他訂定策略之後跨部會的協調然後執行其實解決了很多問題比如說你可以直接在這個會上面要求勞動部解決一些勞力的問題你可以要求財政部針對通關的問題做更簡便你可以請其他的部會農業部看怎麼做農業觀光體育部可以做體育觀光"},{"start":17642.259,"end":17653.66,"text":"可是我覺得非常可惜就是這個觀光推就是觀光發展推動委員會在2021年因為疫情的關係就已經被取消了取消以後並沒有隨之而來的替代的跨部會的機制"},{"start":17654.4,"end":17675.035,"text":"那個時候好像當時的行政院是講說不然就由交通部或觀光署來協調可是我也知道部長你的困難度啊你是交通部長你能夠去協調速發部什麼事嗎他會理你嗎你可以協調遼東部做什麼事嗎你還是需要有更高位階的人來做一個協調跟推動而且很多時候是你上位者的思維跟部長思維不會一樣嘛"},{"start":17675.876,"end":17698.01,"text":"所以像類似這樣的一個觀光發展推動委員會其實大家希望可以再恢復至少要行政院長成績院長太忙的話副院長可以召開保委我們下個月副院長就會來召開這樣子的會議所以有恢復是不是對我們下個月另外成立另外成立一個叫什麼會另外成立一個也是同樣的叫觀光觀光諮詢會議觀光推廣諮詢會議"},{"start":17700.892,"end":17721.147,"text":"觀光推廣諮詢會議幾個月開一次?我們原則上是三個月開一次那因為組成這個委員的民間代表有21席那現在才確認嘛然後我們改變過去的做法就是大家發言以後再來組成題目那我們現在由這些委員提的意見"},{"start":17722.208,"end":17743.622,"text":"然後我們再分類那各部會已經有表示意見我們已經把它重新重整了大概就像部長講的下個月下個月召開趙建仁是誰?副院長目前是副院長就副院長陳琦就對了目前是副院長然後三個月會開一次原則上三個月會開一次那會請各部會地方政府一起來參加還有業者是不是對地方政府沒有地方政府沒有為什麼地方政府不一起召來"},{"start":17744.162,"end":17765.334,"text":"他是中央跟這個業界的一個因為之前的那個政官推是地方政府也可以參與嘛你們觀光署推觀光不可能把地方政府排除在外因為我們自己我們有觀光的22個觀光的局處首長我們是另外再開一個會然後再還有另外一個會就不能我都覺得如果一個會大家整合整合一起"},{"start":17766.254,"end":17777.302,"text":"因為怕議題為了提高那個議程的這個推動,所以我們有很多是把它用分會的方式,然後再提到大會來。好,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝葉委員。"},{"start":17788.476,"end":17790.177,"text":"羅明財委員、蘇清泉委員、羅志強委員、王美惠委員、黃國昌委員、"},{"start":17820.697,"end":17842.746,"text":"好,今天登記質詢委員均與發言完畢做一下決議一、報告局行答完畢第二、委員黃健豪、羅志強所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報第三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分請交通部"},{"start":17844.261,"end":17870.77,"text":"還有中華郵政,如果有的話,儘速以書面答覆。第四、觀光署及所屬單位預算、觀光發展基金非營業預算、中華郵政營業預算等三項預算案均另擇其進行處理。委員預算提案於12月25日星期三中午12點截止收件。現在休息,明天上午繼續開會。謝謝。"},{"start":17886.782,"end":17889.667,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部觀光品質並增加觀光品質。"}]}},{"id":"158221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b951eeed9cc2fe3f91bf93e27bfb97ffd00e6b6e341bf309597225bc5af1f30acd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"17:11:05 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nd":2560.554,"text":"第11目一般科學研究12億7876萬5千元（第13目環保業務21億6267萬5千元（第14目退休輔續14億9860萬元（第15目均均維持13億7784萬6千元（現在宣讀委員之預算提案第一案至第50案為國防部本部部分其餘為國防部所屬之預算提案第一案"},{"start":2581.377,"end":2604.575,"text":"第一幕人員維持法定編制人員待遇凍結兩百萬元委員陳冠廷等人提案第二至第11案為第一幕基本行政工作維持之提案第二案凍結五百萬元委員陳冠廷等人提案第三案凍結五百萬元委員黃仁等人提案第四案凍結兩百萬元委員王定宇等人提案第五案業務費"},{"start":2606.386,"end":2618.56,"text":"檢列一百萬元、凍結一千萬元為林柱英等提案第六案水電費檢列兩千五百三十二萬五千元為馬文君等提案第七案水電費檢列兩百萬元為人陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":2619.093,"end":2630.742,"text":"第8案資訊服務費檢列300萬元凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案第9案特別費凍結50%委員徐巧欣等提案第10案資訊軟硬體設備費檢列500萬元凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案第11案國內團體資捐助檢列10萬元凍結10%委員林柱英等提案"},{"start":2642.421,"end":2658.929,"text":"第12案第1目業務費檢列200萬元凍結1000萬元為馬文君等提案第13案凍結100萬元為黃人等提案第14案第2目戰略規劃業務費凍結100萬元為黃人等提案第16至第27案為第2目整合評估之提案"},{"start":2660.885,"end":2666.832,"text":"第16案業務費凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案第17案業務費凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案第18案教育訓練費減列300萬元凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案第19案教育訓練費凍結200萬元委員陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":2676.944,"end":2689.795,"text":"第二十案一般事務費凍結一百萬元委員陳永康等提案第二十一案一般事務費凍結三十萬元委員林益君等提案第二十二案國外旅費減利三百萬元凍結五百萬元委員馬文君等提案第二十三案獎補助費減利五百萬元"},{"start":2691.897,"end":2698.041,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案、第24案獎補助費凍結50%為林益君等提案、第25案獎補助費凍結30%委員徐巧欣等提案、第26案獎補助費凍結100萬元為王定宇等提案、第27案對國內團體之捐助減列3055萬元為馬文君等提案、第28至36案為"},{"start":2715.732,"end":2733.438,"text":"第2目國防支援管理之提案、第28案凍結兩百萬元委員王定宇等提案、第29案凍結一百萬元委員黃仁等提案、第30案凍結一百萬元委員黃仁等提案、第31案違辦費減列三百萬元、凍結五百萬元違馬文軍等提案、第30案違辦費"},{"start":2735.878,"end":2747.542,"text":"動輒200萬元委員王定宇等提案第33案一般數費動輒10%委員林楚瑩等提案第34案獎補助費動輒500萬元委員馬文君等提案第35案對國內團體資捐助動輒200萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第36案對國內團體資捐助動輒20萬元委員盧茂寧等提案第37至38案為第二幕法律事務之提案"},{"start":2762.335,"end":2780.979,"text":"第37案凍結10%委員林柱英等提案第38案業務費凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案第39至46案為第二目督查作業之提案第39案凍結二分之一委員馬文君等提案第40案凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第41案業務費檢列100萬元凍結100萬元委員林柱英等提案第42案凍結200萬元委員陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":2788.781,"end":2799.966,"text":"第43案、凍結100萬元委員林益君等提案第44案、業務費凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案第45案、業務費凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案第46案、諮詢服務費、檢列140萬元委員馬文君等提案第47至48案為"},{"start":2806.949,"end":2819.314,"text":"第三目國家軍事博物館之提案第47案凍結百分之十文陳冠廷等提案第48案防護建築及設備費凍結一億元為馬文軍等提案第49至第50案為主決議現宣讀主決議之內容第49案"},{"start":2825.819,"end":2852.948,"text":"建於中國近年在軍事上侵擾臺灣日漸頻繁提議國防部增加國軍招募留營又因同時穩定軍心其次增加各級長官獎金與加菜金額度最後調整主戰兵力加級金額以吸引官兵留營提案人委員沈伯陽等人第五十案要求國防部立即研議修正國軍第一加級表將高登及亮導"},{"start":2854.187,"end":2870.016,"text":"首倍對志願役官士兵地域加急月資數額比照東沙島由現行外導第二級調整為第一級提案人委員馬文君等人第51案今年國軍志願役人數從110年最高至164,884人111及112年底人數分別減少5,492人及4,706人"},{"start":2882.242,"end":2903.882,"text":"至113年6月底致願役人數再降至152885人更令人擔憂的是眾多第一型戰鬥部隊之國軍部隊邊線比近不到八成皆請國防部積極嚴厲對策與三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員陳冠廷等人第52案"},{"start":2906.843,"end":2920.16,"text":"建請國防部與一個月內檢討修訂軍用機場照應防制補償經費分配使用辦法提案人委員黃仁等人現在宣讀國防部所屬之提案"},{"start":2925.27,"end":2943.111,"text":"第53案稅入第四款財產收入財產支息第二節租金收入增列一百萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第54至第55案為稅入第七款其他收入第二目其他雜項收入此提案"},{"start":2944.366,"end":2966.559,"text":"第54案爭獵5億元委員陳冠廷等提案第55案爭獵2000萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第56案通案第一幕軍事行政委辦費凍結二分之一委員馬文君等提案第57至58案第三幕動員準備之預算提案第57案凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第58案訓練綜合業務作業"},{"start":2973.822,"end":2997.687,"text":"動輒10%委員陳冠廷等提案第59案國軍中央防務營區智慧型警監系統建設案第二階段動輒10%委員陳冠廷等提案第60案第5幕新型步槍動輒10%委員徐巧欣等提案第61案第5幕一般裝備動輒1億元委員沈伯陽等提案第60案第8幕"},{"start":2998.206,"end":3018.329,"text":"一般建築及設備營建工程檢列9000萬元凍結10%委員林楚英等提案第63案陸軍司令部第一幕業務費凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案第64案第一幕法務及法制作業業務費凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案第65案優惠凍結50萬元委員黃仁等提案第66案第一幕一般輸費凍結20%委員沈伯陽等提案"},{"start":3028.956,"end":3053.752,"text":"第67至68案為第一幕物品資提案第67案凍結20萬元委員馬文君等提案第68案國內旅費檢列30萬元凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案第69案第一幕管好作業凍結10%委員林柱英等提案第70至71案第一幕"},{"start":3055.413,"end":3080.489,"text":"議務費一般數費之提案第70案凍結80%委員徐巧欣等提案第71案凍結100萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第72案第一幕物品檢列100萬元凍結400萬元委員馬文君等提案第73案物品凍結8000萬元委員馬文君等提案第74至78案為陸軍司令部第三幕交易行政資訊軟硬體設備費之提案"},{"start":3082.659,"end":3087.005,"text":"第74案檢列100萬元、凍結500萬元為馬文君等提案第75案雜項設備費檢列80萬元、凍結100萬元為馬文君等提案第76案資訊服務費"},{"start":3096.318,"end":3122.836,"text":"簡列一百萬元、凍結四百萬元委員馬文君等提案第77案,物品凍結一百萬元委員王定宇等提案第78案,一般事務費凍結一百萬元委員王定宇等提案第79至81案,為第三目動員整備業務費之提案第79案,其他業務租金簡列三百萬元、凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案第80案,物品凍結一百萬元委員王定宇等提案第81案"},{"start":3124.741,"end":3142.643,"text":"第3目動員準備檢列300萬元動結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案第82至91案為第3目訓練綜合業務優惠按日案件機資籌金之提案動結百分之10委員陳冠廷等提案第83案"},{"start":3144.773,"end":3149.835,"text":"按日案件．支籌金減列100萬元．凍結200萬元為馬文軍等提案．84案國軍軍事裝備及設施減列200萬元．凍結1000萬元為馬文軍等提案．85案物品凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案．86案物品減列300萬元．凍結700萬元為馬文軍等提案．87案一般事務費"},{"start":3169.404,"end":3182.251,"text":"動輒3千萬元為馬文君等提案﹖第88案軍事裝備設施養護費動輒10%委員陳冠廷等提案﹖第89案國內旅費動輒10%委員陳冠廷等提案﹖第90案業務費動輒1億元委員馬文君等提案﹖第91案業務費動輒500萬元委員黃仁等提案﹖第92案第三幕教育訓練業務動輒10%委員陳冠廷等提案﹖第93至97案為第4幕"},{"start":3197.938,"end":3210.807,"text":"一般單要固置與維護之提案第93案業務費軍事裝備及設施凍結10%委員沈伯漾等提案第94案軍事裝備及設施凍結2億元委員馬文君等提案第95案軍事裝備及設施凍結20%委員徐曉新等提案第96案業務費凍結10%委員徐曉新等提案第97案凍結50%委員林益君等提案第98案"},{"start":3228.823,"end":3232.269,"text":"其他業務租金凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第99案防務建築洋務費凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第100案水電費凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":3243.854,"end":3250.697,"text":"第101案業務費檢列494萬元凍結50%委員徐曉新等提案第102至115案為第4目軍事單位裝備零附件固製及保修之提案第102案軍事裝備及設施凍結15%委員徐曉新等提案第103案軍事裝備及設施凍結1000萬元為馬文軍等提案第104案"},{"start":3270.475,"end":3284.323,"text":"動輒400萬元委員馬文君等提案第105案動輒10%委員陳冠廷等提案第106案動輒80%委員徐巧欣等提案第107案動輒10%委員徐巧欣等提案第108案動輒1億元委員馬文君等提案第109案減劣4千萬元動輒1千萬元委員馬文君等提案第110案"},{"start":3295.849,"end":3299.196,"text":"簡列8000萬元、凍結5000萬元為馬文君等提案第111案車輛及辦公器具養護費、凍結1000萬元為馬文君等提案第112案"},{"start":3308.888,"end":3320.451,"text":"第4目軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修凍結50%委員林毅君等提案第113案凍結50%委員林毅君等提案第114案凍結50%委員林毅君等提案第115案凍結50%委員林毅君等提案第116至"},{"start":3331.354,"end":3340.62,"text":"第120案是針對第4幕後勤補給支援業務費之提案第116案物品凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第117案業務費物品凍結2000萬元"},{"start":3348.004,"end":3361.101,"text":"委員馬文君等提案第一百一十八案物品檢驗三千萬元凍結一億元委員馬文君等提案第一百一十九案一般輸入費凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案第一百二十案軍事裝備設施養護費"},{"start":3363.764,"end":3392.206,"text":"簡列一千兩百萬元委員馬文君等提案第一百二十一至一百二十五案系第五目仁溪市短程防空飛彈之提案第一百二十一案凍結百分之十委員徐巧欣等提案第一百二十二案凍結百分之四十委員徐巧欣等提案第一百二十三案凍結一千萬元委員黃仁等提案第一百二十四案凍結三億元委員馬文君等提案第一百二十五案凍結五千萬元"},{"start":3394.005,"end":3410.397,"text":"委員陳永康等提案第126至131案系第五目國軍中亞防護營區智慧型警戒系統建置案第二階段之提案第126案凍結10%委員林業軍等提案第127案凍結500萬元委員王定宇等提案第128案凍結500萬元"},{"start":3416.761,"end":3421.704,"text":"委員黃仁等提案第129案凍結50萬元委員盧美玲等提案第130案凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案第131案凍結500萬元委員陳永康等提案第132案"},{"start":3432.489,"end":3447.154,"text":"第5幕新型戰車凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案第133至138案系第5幕高效能仿裝甲飛彈之提案第133案凍結10萬元委員林毅君等提案第134案凍結20%委員林毅君等提案第135案"},{"start":3453.977,"end":3469.778,"text":"動結一千萬元委員黃仁等提案第136案動結兩百萬元委員王定宇等提案第137案動結五百萬元委員陳永康等提案第138案動結八千萬元委員馬文君等提案第139案"},{"start":3472.23,"end":3478.455,"text":"第5幕遠程精準火力打擊系統凍結8000萬元委員馬文君等提案140到141案系遙控無人機防護系統之提案140案凍結100萬元委員陳永康等提案141案檢列600萬元凍結300萬元委員馬文君等提案142到144案系"},{"start":3494.261,"end":3511.885,"text":"半用機艙支提案、142案凍結一百萬元委員林玉君等人提案、143案凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等人提案、144案凍結一百萬元委員陳永康等人提案、145案陸上機動部來系統凍結兩千萬元委員黃仁等提案、146到147案是"},{"start":3514.646,"end":3520.613,"text":"及陸軍第5幕陸通用行油罐車採購案之提案、146案凍結100萬元委員黃恩等提案、147案凍結1728000元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":3529.722,"end":3556.992,"text":"一百四十八到一百五十三案系戰術型進程無人飛行載具二階段之提案一百四十八案凍結三百萬元委員王定營等提案一百四十九案凍結五百萬元委員林益君等提案一百五十案凍結五百萬元委員黃恩等提案一百五十一案凍結五十萬元委員羅美玲等提案一百五十二案凍結一億元委員馬文君等提案一百五十三案凍結兩百萬元委員陳永康等提案一百五十四案"},{"start":3558.274,"end":3570.241,"text":"目獲行無人機凍結一億元委員馬文君等提案、155到157案系無人機反制系統之提案、155案凍結三千萬元委員黃文君等提案、156案凍結五百萬元委員林軍等提案、157案凍結四億五千"},{"start":3576.065,"end":3582.988,"text":"166萬元委員馬文君等提案158到159系兼徵型無人機制提案158案凍結10%林義軍等提案159凍結4000萬元委員馬文君等提案160到161案系攻擊無人機飛彈系統制提案160案凍結3000萬元委員黃恩等提案161案"},{"start":3599.196,"end":3624.185,"text":"簡列五十二億零三百九十萬三千元委員馬文君等人提案一百六十二到一百六十四案系先行步槍之提案一百六十二案凍結一百萬元委員林一軍等人提案一百六十三案凍結一百萬元委員黃恩等人提案一百六十四案凍結一億元委員馬文君等人提案一百六十五案後備部隊手持無線電機補充案凍結六千萬元委員馬文君等人提案一百六十六案"},{"start":3625.466,"end":3642.015,"text":"戰術型進程無人飛行載具二階段凍結40%委員徐曉興等提案167到168案系危行無人機之提案167案凍結20萬元委員林一軍等提案168案凍結95萬元委員馬文君等提案169案新型步槍凍結40%委員徐曉興等提案170案陸軍作戰支援服務系統建置案凍結10萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":3656.274,"end":3664.059,"text":"171案國軍後備部隊衛情裝備整備第二階段凍結400萬元委員馬文君等人提案172案採購及外購軍品作業費之國外旅費凍結10%委員陳冠廷等人提案173案第6目主婦食與口糧之一般事務費凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等人提案174案第8目"},{"start":3684.383,"end":3689.409,"text":"南湖彈庫新建工程凍結3000萬元委員馬文君等提案175到177案系第8幕戰甲車掩體新建工程第一階段之提案175案凍結10%委員林一軍等提案176案凍結4000萬元委員馬文君等提案177案"},{"start":3707.328,"end":3721.529,"text":"動輒7500萬元委員許曉新等提案178案第8目陸軍官校改善教育設施工程動輒1000萬元委員馬文君等提案179案第8目公共建設及設施費動輒3000萬元委員許曉新等提案"},{"start":3723.086,"end":3743.514,"text":"一百八十到一百八十一案系第八目章訓部隊安營區訓練場整建工程案之提案一百八十案凍結十分之一委員黃仁等人提案一百八十一案凍結五千萬元委員馬文軍等人提案一百八十二到一百八十五案系第八目章訓坑子口訓練場整建工程案"},{"start":3744.113,"end":3752.24,"text":"直提案、182案凍結十分之一委員黃恩等提案、183案凍結五百萬元委員王定宇等提案、184案"},{"start":3754.851,"end":3772.707,"text":"動輒五百萬元委員林軍等提案、180萬動輒六千萬元委員馬文君等提案、186到187案是第八目戰場抗壓管新建工程之提案、186案動輒一億五千八百萬元委員徐小新等提案、187案動輒八千萬元委員馬文君等提案、188案第八目合理冒險訓練場動輒五百萬元委員馬文君等提案、"},{"start":3781.659,"end":3804.19,"text":"189-190案第8目花防部復興營區訓場新建工程案之提案189案凍結兩千萬元委員馬文君等提案190案凍結四千萬元委員徐曉新等提案191案第8目手榴彈實彈投擲場及反裝甲射擊場新建工程案凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案192案"},{"start":3806.391,"end":3813.781,"text":"第8目清兵器、靶場興建工程先期規劃案、凍結400萬元委員馬文君等提案193到194案系第8目城鎮戰訓練場際合劃"},{"start":3819.147,"end":3829.81,"text":"集合生化訓練場新建工程先期規劃案之提案193案凍結20%委員徐曉新等提案194案凍結400萬元委員馬文君等提案195案系第8目金湯營區後備訓場整建先期規劃案凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案196案第8目載人公務車輛籌補凍結2000萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":3848.729,"end":3855.774,"text":"197-201案第13目環保設施維護之提案197案雜項設備費檢列70萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案198案按日案件計資籌金檢列100萬元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案199案委辦費檢列100萬元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案200案"},{"start":3879.383,"end":3886.108,"text":"一般事務費凍結10%委員陳冠廷等人提案2001案一般事務費簡略1000萬元凍結3000萬元委員馬文軍等人提案以下是海軍司令部之提案202案至203案是第一幕情報及測量作業之業務"},{"start":3900.174,"end":3905.58,"text":"指通訊費指提案202案通訊費凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案203案資訊服務費減列50萬元凍結60萬元委員馬文君等提案204案"},{"start":3914.605,"end":3932.034,"text":"法制作業及法務及法制作業之業務費凍結20%委員徐曉新等人提案205案採購及作業及外購軍品作業費之運費凍結二分之一委員徐曉新等人提案206到207案之提案是市政作業是一般事務費之提案206案凍結10%委員林楚英等人提案207案"},{"start":3944.377,"end":3949.641,"text":"簡列250萬元、凍結125萬元委員徐曉欣等人提案208案計劃管理作業之一般事務費簡列10萬元、凍結13萬元委員馬文君等人提案209案至210案係針對第一幕"},{"start":3962.312,"end":3990.657,"text":"議員（議員"},{"start":3991.477,"end":4015.891,"text":"計資籌金、凍結15萬元、213案凍結二分之一委員徐曉新等提案、214案第1目軍事醫療作業設施及機械設備養護費減略100萬元凍結70萬元委員馬文君等提案、215至219案系教育第三目之業務費之提案、215案物品減略100萬元委員黃仁等提案、216案"},{"start":4018.991,"end":4019.852,"text":"事由．12月16日、18日及19日及19日提出"},{"start":4037.834,"end":4051.539,"text":"9萬9千元、凍結30%委員徐曉信等提案、220到223系第三幕訓練綜合作業之業務費之提案、220案教育訓練費凍結二分之一委員馬文君等提案、221軍事設備及設施減力2000萬元凍結3000萬元委員馬文君等提案、222案"},{"start":4059.122,"end":4063.289,"text":"凍結80%委員徐曉信等提案223凍結100萬元委員黃仁鼎等提案224到226案之提案系後勤綜合勤務"},{"start":4072.714,"end":4075.455,"text":"提案 提案 提案 提案 提案 提案 提案 提案"},{"start":4097.544,"end":4104.87,"text":"設施修繕維護與管理之提案227案防護建築養護費凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案228凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案229案水電供應凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案230至234案系第4目通訊電子與資訊管理之提案第230案"},{"start":4123.085,"end":4126.007,"text":"資訊軟體設備費檢列50萬元﹐凍結50萬元為馬文軍等提案﹐第231案教育訓練費檢列10萬元﹐凍結50萬元為馬文軍等提案﹐第232案軍事裝備設施養物費﹐凍結1000萬元為馬文軍等提案﹐第233案軍事裝備設施養物費檢列3000萬元﹐"},{"start":4144.437,"end":4147.982,"text":"委員黃仁等提案第234案業務費凍結30%委員薛曉新等提案第235至244案為第4目軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修之提案"},{"start":4159.554,"end":4166.64,"text":"第230萬岸日案件祭資籌金、減列500萬元動解500萬元委員馬文君等提案第236案軍事裝備及設施減列2億元動解1000萬元委員馬文君等提案第237案業務費動解80%委員徐巧興等提案"},{"start":4176.187,"end":4187.813,"text":"第238案凍結50%委員林益君等人提案第239案凍結50%委員林益君等人提案第240案凍結50%委員林益君等人提案第241案凍結50%委員林益君等人提案第242案凍結50%委員林益君等人提案第243案凍結50%委員林益君等人提案"},{"start":4200.2,"end":4207.266,"text":"第244案 凍結50%委員林毅君等提案 第245案 第4目 設施及機械設備養護費 減列3000萬元凍結3000萬元 委員馬文君等提案 第246至249案 系第5目 一般武器及戰備支援裝備購置 資訊軟體設備費 直提案"},{"start":4223.905,"end":4228.926,"text":"第246案（凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案（第247案（檢列228萬4千元委員馬文君等提案（第248案（設備及投資凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案（第249案（凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案（第250至251案為第5目"},{"start":4244.651,"end":4256.957,"text":"怒用兼征行無人機之提案﹖第250案﹖凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案﹖第251案﹖凍結300萬元委員林益君等提案﹖第252至254案﹖為第5目長城潛射縱行魚雷之提案﹖第252案﹖凍結100萬元委員林益君等提案﹖第253案﹖凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案﹖第254案﹖凍結3000萬元委員黃仁等提案﹖第255案﹖為第5目"},{"start":4274.434,"end":4291.439,"text":"建載型艦增無人機之提案 凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案 第256至257案為第5目建龍級潛艦戰鬥系統提升之提案 第256案凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案 第257案凍結5000萬元委員黃仁等提案 第258案第5目新購布拉克"},{"start":4299.281,"end":4317.911,"text":"EB方陣快炮凍結3000萬元委員馬文君等提案第259至261案為第五目潛艦國造第二階段原型艦籌建之提案第259案凍結一億元委員馬文君等提案第260案凍結5000萬元委員黃仁等提案第261案凍結5億8495萬7千元"},{"start":4328.052,"end":4336.605,"text":"委員陳永康等提案第262案第5目新一代輕型巡防艦第二階段原型艦籌建"},{"start":4338.383,"end":4357.829,"text":"簡列三千萬元凍結十億元為馬文君等提案第263案第五目多功能特種作戰訓練場簡列八千萬元委員馬文君等提案第264案第五目訓場複合式標靶建案簡列六千萬元為馬文君等提案第265至266案為第五目康電集"},{"start":4363.325,"end":4378.253,"text":"抗地警戒戰鬥系統性能提升之提案第265案凍結五千萬元委員黃仁等提案第266案凍結七千萬元委員馬文君等提案第267案第五目魚叉飛彈防岸海岸防衛系統凍結三千萬元委員馬文君等提案第268至271案為第五目僭建國照第三階段後續籌建之提案"},{"start":4393.223,"end":4400.045,"text":"第268案凍結50%委員林業軍等提案第269案檢列17億9600萬5千元委員徐巧欣等提案第270案檢列21元委員馬文君等提案第271案檢列21元委員黃仁等提案第272至275萬為第5目快速布雷挺後續之提案第272案凍結300萬元"},{"start":4422.932,"end":4432.76,"text":"委員林益君等提案．273案．凍結五千萬元委員黃仁等提案．274案．凍結10%委員徐曉新等提案．275案．凍結兩億元委員馬文君等提案．276至278案為第五目．國軍重要防護營區智慧型緊接系統建制案第二階段之提案．"},{"start":4449.724,"end":4454.247,"text":"第276案,凍結10%委員林毅君等提案第277案,凍結50%委員徐巧欣等提案第278案,凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案第279至281案,為第5目"},{"start":4468.598,"end":4476.284,"text":"金針型無人機之提案、第279案、凍結10%委員林益君等提案、第280案、凍結2000萬元委員黃仁等提案、第281案、凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案、第282至283案為第5幕人稀釋短程防空飛彈之提案"},{"start":4491.189,"end":4500.737,"text":"第282案,凍結80%委員徐曉新等提案,第283案凍結5億元委員馬文君等提案,第284案第5目,寧願靶場整修工程檢列1200萬元凍結1000萬元委員徐曉新等提案,第285至286案為第5目,採購及外購軍品作業費之提案"},{"start":4514.485,"end":4527.095,"text":"第285案案日案件計資籌金檢列150萬元、凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案第286案凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案第287至289案為第五目新式港琴拖船購置之提案第287案凍結36萬3千元委員陳永康等提案第288案凍結5萬元委員林益君等提案"},{"start":4543.683,"end":4559.998,"text":"第289案簡列10萬元委員黃仁等提案第290案第5目海洋建增能量整體提升案簡列2000萬元凍結2億元委員馬文君等提案第291至292為第8目"},{"start":4563.922,"end":4575.511,"text":"雲渣飛彈海岸防衛系統之提案第291案凍結3億元委員馬文君等提案第292案凍結5000萬元委員黃仁等提案第293至294案為第8目左營二港口擴建工程之提案第293案凍結1000萬元委員黃仁等提案第294案凍結200萬元委員王定宇等提案第295案第8目"},{"start":4591.303,"end":4602.654,"text":"金門縣烏丘碼頭新建工程之提案動解2000萬元為馬文君等提案第296至297案為第8目防務建築及設備之提案第296案簡列3187萬元為馬文君等提案第297案防務建築及設備簡列"},{"start":4614.605,"end":4626.092,"text":"一千萬元凍結五千萬元委員馬文君等提案第298案第8目寧願拔長整修工程檢列3187萬元委員黃仁等提案第299案第8目載人公務車輛籌補凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案第300案"},{"start":4633.53,"end":4661.694,"text":"第8目國軍後備部隊衛情裝備整備第二階段檢列一千萬元凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案第301至302案為第8目發展海軍官校基礎及專業經濟教育設施設備師之提案第301案凍結五百萬元委員黃仁等提案第302案檢列一百萬元凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":4663.069,"end":4679.853,"text":"第303至305案為第13目環保設施維護一般事務費之提案第303案凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第310案凍結2000萬元委員黃仁等提案第305案一般事務費減令500萬元凍結3000萬元委員毛文君等提案第306案"},{"start":4687.523,"end":4690.047,"text":"第一幕防務建築養護費檢列100萬元、凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":4695.046,"end":4699.53,"text":"第307案第一幕業務費一般事務費減列2億5890萬5千元委員徐曉新等提案第308案第一幕雜項設備費減列30萬元凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案第309案第一幕一般事務費減列150萬元凍結150萬元委員馬文君等提案第310至312案為第三幕"},{"start":4722.188,"end":4731.891,"text":"教育行政之提案第310案教育訓練費減列200萬元、凍結40萬元委員馬文君等提案第311案一般書費減列200萬元、凍結60萬元委員馬文君等提案第312案國內旅費凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第313至314案為第三目作戰綜合作業之提案"},{"start":4749.67,"end":4755.414,"text":"第313案物品檢列200萬元凍結40萬元為馬文君等提案第314案設施及機械設備養護費檢列200萬元凍結30萬元為馬文君等提案第315案至第317案為第三目"},{"start":4768.997,"end":4777.082,"text":"訓練綜合作業之預算提案第315案雜項設備費減列100萬元（凍結50萬元委員馬文君等提案第316案軍事裝備及設施減列200萬元（凍結110萬元（委員馬文君等提案第317案醫護費凍結100萬元（委員黃仁等提案第318案第4幕水電費凍結2000萬元（委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":4798.288,"end":4813.615,"text":"第319至321案為第4目通信電子與資訊管理業務費之提案第319案交易訓練費凍結100萬元為馬文軍等提案第320案資訊服務費凍結5000萬元為馬文軍等提案第321案軍事裝備設施養護費凍結3000萬元為馬文軍等提案第322至327案為第4目軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修之提案"},{"start":4827.352,"end":4834.278,"text":"第322案軍事裝備及設施檢列7000萬元凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案第323案車輛及辦公器具養護費檢列3000萬元凍結2000萬元委員馬文君等提案第324案凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第325案凍結"},{"start":4847.768,"end":4872.433,"text":"三百萬元、五元、零億均等提案、第326案、凍結一百萬元、五元、零億均等提案、第327案、凍結五千萬元、五元陳永康等提案、第328至329為第四目後勤補給支援之提案、第328案、物品凍結五百萬元、五元黃人等提案、第329案、物品檢列一億元、凍結四千萬元、五元馬文均等提案、第330至332為第五目新式高級"},{"start":4877.062,"end":4883.19,"text":"教訓機之提案第330案凍結一千萬元為聯義軍等提案、第331案凍結一億元為黃人等提案、第332案"},{"start":4889.254,"end":4907.385,"text":"動輒20億元委員馬文君等提案第333至334案為第5目愛二性能提升及採購愛三之提案第333案動輒10億元委員馬文君等提案第334案動輒5000萬元委員林彬君等提案第335至336案為第5目F16AB型戰機性能提升之提案第335案"},{"start":4917.11,"end":4938.457,"text":"凍結兩百萬元為王定宇等提案、第三百三十六案凍結一億元為馬文君等提案、第三百三十七至三百三十八為第五目堅貞型污染機制提案、第三百三十七案凍結百分之十為林業軍等提案、第三百三十八案凍結三千萬元為馬文君等提案、第三百三十九案"},{"start":4939.673,"end":4964.629,"text":"第5幕F16及新式堅徵夾槍之提案第340案動解兩億元委員馬文君等提案第340至342案為第5幕國軍重要防務援軍智慧型警戒系統建制案第二階段動解10%委員林毅君等提案第341案動解兩億元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":4966.124,"end":4986.22,"text":"第342案（凍結五百萬元委員陳永康等提案第343至344案（為第五目F16型機遠距精準武器籌購案之提案第343案（凍結一億元為馬文君等提案第344案（凍結五百萬元為黃仁等提案第345案（第五目"},{"start":4992.247,"end":5001.351,"text":"高高空無人機系統凍結30億元委員馬文君等提案第346至347案為第5目遙控無人機防禦系統之提案第346案凍結30%委員徐巧興等提案第347案凍結1500萬元委員馬文君等提案第348至349案為第5目F16Vブラック70型"},{"start":5021.724,"end":5026.921,"text":"及抵我識別器尋答密碼機之提案"},{"start":5027.574,"end":5054.763,"text":"第348案（凍結一千萬元為黃人等提案（第349案（凍結兩千萬元為馬文君等提案（第350至351案（為第五目新式高較機性能科目軌跡噴煙裝置之提案（第350案（凍結一千萬元為黃人等提案（第351案（凍結一千萬元為馬文君等提案（第352至353案（為第五目一般武器及"},{"start":5056.304,"end":5061.953,"text":"裝備資源、裝備購資案、第352案、凍結100萬元委員林毅君等提案、第353案、檢列5000萬元、凍結5億元委員馬文君等提案、第354案、"},{"start":5068.956,"end":5084.079,"text":"第5目（TPS（FPS117雷達性能提升案（凍結2000萬元委員馬文君等提案第355案（第5目（按日案件機資籌金減劣70萬元（凍結10萬元委員馬文君等提案第356至359案（為第8目（侵權鋼基地防護機庫構建之提案第356案（凍結1000萬元委員陳永康等提案第357案（"},{"start":5098.466,"end":5103.812,"text":"凍結一百萬元委員林益君等提案第358案凍結三千萬元委員黃潤等提案第359案凍結三百萬元委員王定宇等提案第360至361案"},{"start":5111.507,"end":5122.012,"text":"為第8目台東基地設施新建工程師提案、第360案凍結1億元為馬文君等提案、第361案凍結200萬元委員陳冠廷等提案、第362案第8目岡山基地設施新建工程檢列2億元、凍結2億元為馬文君等提案、第363案第8目"},{"start":5131.136,"end":5142.101,"text":"砲滑到戰備工程凍結2億元為馬文軍等提案第364案第8目載人工物車輛籌補凍結2000萬元為馬文軍等提案第365案第8目國軍衛生部隊衛情裝備整備凍結500萬元為馬文軍等提案第366案第8目充實航空技術學校技職基礎及專業精進教育設備師檢列30萬元凍結2000萬元為馬文軍等提案"},{"start":5161.594,"end":5163.015,"text":"367到369案系第13目環保業務環保設施維護之提案367案"},{"start":5170.984,"end":5197.071,"text":"按日案件計資籌金檢列110萬元（凍結10萬元委員馬文君等提案368案設施及機械設備養護費檢列200萬元（凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案369案其他補助及捐助（凍結2000萬元委員馬文君等提案一下就（一下去憲兵指揮部之提案370案第一幕（法務及法制作業業務費凍結20%（允許小新等提案371案到372案"},{"start":5203.088,"end":5219.037,"text":"行政事務一般事務費直提案、 371案、凍結五百萬元委員馬文君等提案、 372案、凍結五百萬元委員黃仁等提案、 373案、檢列兩千萬元凍結百分之三十委員徐小新等提案、 374到375案、 國會聯絡作業直提案、"},{"start":5224.249,"end":5242.571,"text":"三百七十四案業務費凍結百分之三十委員許曉新等人提案三百七十五凍結百分之三十委員許曉新等人提案三百七十六第一幕政戰綜合作業通訊費凍結二十萬元委員馬文君等人提案三百七十七第三幕動員準備法定編制人員待遇凍結兩百萬元"},{"start":5244.349,"end":5256.915,"text":"委員馬文君等提案378案第4目通訊隊凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案379第5目國軍新型手槍第二階段凍結10%委員徐曉新等提案380到382案系第5目遙控無人機防禦系統之提案380案凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案381案"},{"start":5269.38,"end":5275.944,"text":"凍結500萬元委員黃仁等提案382案凍結2000萬元委員馬文君等提案383案國軍警備勤務車汰換凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案384案到385案"},{"start":5286.309,"end":5296.839,"text":"第5目無人機反制系統之提案、384案凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案、380萬凍結50萬元委員林益君等提案、386案偵偵型無人機凍結10%委員林益君等提案、387、攻擊無人機"},{"start":5304.848,"end":5316.455,"text":"備戰系統凍結8800萬元委員馬文君等提案388案進行步槍凍結100萬元委員林軍等提案以下系資通電軍指揮部之提案389案第一幕業務費減列200萬元凍結20%委員徐小新等提案390第4幕"},{"start":5324.575,"end":5332.8,"text":"設施修繕維護與管理、設施及機械設備養護費檢列100萬元、凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案391、第4目水電供應、凍結300萬元委員馬文君等提案392到393案第4目"},{"start":5341.224,"end":5370.628,"text":"通信電子與資訊管理資訊服務費之提案392案簡列一千萬元凍結五百萬元委員黃恩等提案393案簡列八百萬元凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案394到395案其第四目軍事第四目軍事單位裝備零附件構置及保修軍事設備及設軍事裝備及設施之提案394案簡列六千萬元凍結四千萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":5371.075,"end":5399.601,"text":"三百九十五案簡列五千萬元、凍結五千萬元委員黃恩等提案三百九十六案第四目軍事裝備及設施簡列五十萬元、凍結一百五十萬元委員馬文君等提案三百九十七到三百九十八案是第五目遙控無人機防禦系統之提案三百九十七案凍結百分之三十委員徐曉新等提案三百九十八案凍結一億元委員馬文君等提案三百九十九案第五目兼徵型無人機凍結兩千萬元委員馬文君等提案四百案第三代"},{"start":5400.913,"end":5429.06,"text":"陸區系統凍結三億元委員馬文君等提案401到402案系第五目環島第二路由及滋通系統微波建築案提案401案凍結四千萬元委員馬文君等提案402案凍結一千萬元委員黃恩等提案403案第八目載載載載入無人載人公務車輛籌補凍結六百萬元委員馬文君等提案以下系政治作戰局之提案404案第一目"},{"start":5429.912,"end":5442.585,"text":"第一幕業務費凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案405到415案系第一幕政治戰爭綜合作業之提案405案人事"},{"start":5445.071,"end":5456.838,"text":"405 案獎金凍結一百萬元委員馬文君等提案406 案委辦費凍結百分之二十委員徐曉新等提案407 案委辦費凍結一百萬元委員王定民等提案408 案委辦費減列三百八十八萬元委員馬文君等提案409 案一般事務費凍結二十萬元委員羅美玲等提案"},{"start":5466.043,"end":5474.269,"text":"413一般事務費凍結五百萬元委員沈伯陽等提案411一般事務費凍結六百萬元委員陳冠廷等提案412一般事務費凍結六百萬元委員馬文君等提案413業務費凍結一百萬元委員黃仁等提案414業務費凍結一百萬元委員黃仁等提案415業務費凍結十分之一委員馬文君等提案416"},{"start":5495.441,"end":5502.408,"text":"第1目一般事務費檢列200萬元凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案417案第1目凍結100萬元委員林一軍等提案418案第4目獎勵及慰問凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案419到425案系第4目業務費肢體"},{"start":5518.908,"end":5531.192,"text":"第4目飲產管理之提案419案又房屋建築點戶費凍結500萬元委員馬文君等人提案420案對國內團體之捐助凍結50%委員林軍等人提案421案對國內團體之捐助凍結100萬元委員王定宇之提案422案對國內團體捐團體之捐助凍結十分之一委員黃仁等提案423案對國內團體捐"},{"start":5544.572,"end":5552.414,"text":"團體支捐助檢列7625萬元委員馬文君等人提案424案蔣補助費凍結30%委員徐曉新等人提案425案蔣補助費檢列1000萬元凍結1000萬元委員徐曉新等人提案426案第4目水電供應檢列1274萬3000元委員馬文君等人提案427案第6目約聘雇人員待遇凍結30%委員徐曉新等人提案"},{"start":5571.119,"end":5576.841,"text":"第8目軍品生產修護建設及其他設備凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案第11目國防先進科技研究計劃凍結1億元委員馬文君等提案第11目功率電子設平產業應用發展計劃凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":5590.687,"end":5608.564,"text":"也占全身行動力外、谷歌系統開發、凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案432到433案、次世代先進製造關鍵技術開發計劃之提案432案、凍結一千萬元委員馬文君等提案433案、凍結十分之一委員黃恩等提案434"},{"start":5610.694,"end":5639.91,"text":"第13目一般事務費凍結一千萬元委員黃仁等提案430以下系主計舉止提案435案第一目業務費凍結一百萬元委員林楚英等提案436案第一目一般事務費減列兩千八百九十九萬一千元委員徐曉新等提案437案約聘僱人員待遇凍結百分之三十委員徐曉新等提案以下系軍誼舉止提案438案第一目人事行政凍結十萬元委員林益君等提案"},{"start":5643.026,"end":5658.769,"text":"439 案動結10萬元委員陳永康等提案440 到442 案系第一幕正佔綜合作業業務費之提案440 案案件計資籌金檢列49萬元動結9千元委員馬文君等提案441 案委辦費動結100萬元委員王定營等提案442 案委辦費檢列1359萬元動結9千元委員馬文君等提案443 到447 案系第一幕"},{"start":5671.711,"end":5675.052,"text":"軍事醫療作業之提案443案洗雜項設備費檢列100萬元凍結60萬元委員馬文君等提案444案案例案件計資籌金檢列1000萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案445案物品檢列17000萬元凍結3000萬元委員馬文君等提案446案一般事務費凍結500萬元委員陳永康等提案"},{"start":5697.847,"end":5707.753,"text":"447案一般事務費檢列100萬元凍結150萬元委員馬文君等提案448到449案第3目教育行政支提案448案對特種基金支補助檢列300萬元凍結300萬元委員馬文君等提案449案凍結20%委員徐曉新等提案450案第4目防護建築養護費檢列1000萬元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案451案"},{"start":5726.471,"end":5738.486,"text":"水電費剪裂及凍結剪裂1000萬元凍結3000萬元委員馬文君等提案452案第5目新型人體離心機剪裂2億元委員馬文君等提案453到455案"},{"start":5744.623,"end":5757.294,"text":"第8目國軍前進外科小組裝備整備之提案、453凍結一千萬元委員沈伯陽等提案、454凍結一千萬元委員黃恩等提案、455減一兩億元委員馬文君等提案、456第8目國軍醫院精準醫療救護設備整備減列四千萬元委員馬文君等提案、457"},{"start":5771.328,"end":5779.99,"text":"第8目第4作戰區高階持證及證紙斷層掃描系統整備檢列2000萬元馬文君等提案458案第6作戰區新導管檢查及治療裝備整備凍結1000萬元委員沈伯陽等提案459國軍醫院軍政醫學網路設備系統提升案檢列5000萬元馬文君等提案"},{"start":5796.895,"end":5806.64,"text":"461至461案為全民防衛動員署第一幕人事行政之提案第460案凍結50萬元委員盧美玲等提案461案凍結50萬元委員林楚英等提案第462案第一幕業務費一般事務費凍結300萬元委員黃仁等提案第463案第一幕"},{"start":5819.383,"end":5823.506,"text":"政戰綜合作業業務費凍結100萬元委員黃仁等提案第464至473案為第三目動員準備之提案第464案資訊軟體設備費減列200萬元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案第465案雜項設備費減列800萬元凍結300萬元"},{"start":5839.178,"end":5850.362,"text":"委員馬文君等提案第466案通訊費檢列100萬元委員黃仁等提案第467案其他業務注金檢列1000萬元凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案第468案物品檢列500萬元凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案第469案"},{"start":5857.325,"end":5865.387,"text":"國內旅費檢列500萬元委員黃仁等提案第470案國外旅費凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案第471案業務費凍結500萬元委員黃仁等提案第472案凍結300萬元委員王定宇等提案第473案凍結100萬元委員羅敏林等提案"},{"start":5876.77,"end":5881.613,"text":"第474案第3目凍結10%委員陳冠廷等提案第475案至476案為第4目物品資提案第475案檢列200萬元為馬文君等提案第476案"},{"start":5893.059,"end":5913.407,"text":"簡列一千萬元、凍結兩千萬元委員毛文君等提案第477案第五目一般武器及戰備支援裝備購置凍結一千萬元委員沈伯陽等提案第478至479案為第五目新型步槍之提案第478案凍結五千萬元委員毛文君等提案第479案凍結一百萬元委員林毅君等提案第480至"},{"start":5920.137,"end":5931.625,"text":"481案為第5目危險無人機之提案第480案凍結1億元為馬文軍等提案第481案凍結500萬元委員林業軍等提案第482案第5目國軍重要防護營區智慧型警戒系統建設案第二階段凍結10%委員林業軍等提案第483案第5目國軍HF通信機換裝案之提案"},{"start":5949.704,"end":5965.937,"text":"483案動計5萬3千元為馬文君等提案第484至490案為國防大學第三目教育行政業務費之提案第484案其他業務租金減列150萬元為馬文君等提案第485萬物品"},{"start":5968.243,"end":5985.399,"text":"剪裂50萬元、凍結500萬元為馬文君等提案486案、一般事務費凍結1000萬元為馬文君等提案第487案、一般事務費剪裂335萬元為馬文君等提案第488案、防務建築養護費剪裂100萬元為馬文君等提案第489案、國外旅費凍結160萬6千元為任陳冠廷等提案"},{"start":5992.813,"end":5997.918,"text":"第490案國外旅費凍結74萬6千元委員陳冠廷等提案第491案第4幕設施及機械設備養護費凍結20%委員徐巧欣等提案第492案第4幕防務建築養護費減列400萬元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案第493案一般事務費凍結64萬2千元委員陳冠廷等提案第494案"},{"start":6018.897,"end":6033.2,"text":"第4目車輛及辦公器具養物費緊列80萬5千元委員馬文君等提案第495至496案為第4目雜項設備費之提案第495案凍結十分之一委員黃仁等提案第496案雜項設備費緊列300萬元凍結300萬元委員馬文君等提案第497案第8目運輸設備費凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":6046.038,"end":6052.059,"text":"第498案第13目一般數費檢列118萬元為馬文君等提案第499至501案為中正國防幹部預備學校之提案第4目後勤補給資源之提案第499案一般數費凍結30%委員徐巧興等提案第500案"},{"start":6069.113,"end":6085.938,"text":"動輒10萬元委員林楚瑩等提案第501案動輒10萬元委員盧美玲等提案第502至505案為參謀本部第一幕業務費之提案第502案物品動輒20%委員沈柏洋提案第503案業務費動輒100萬元委員黃仁等提案第504案業務費動輒20萬元委員盧美玲等提案第505案第一幕"},{"start":6099.701,"end":6108.766,"text":"動輒200萬元委員王定宇等提案第506案第一幕一般事務費動輒200萬元委員陳永康等提案第507案"},{"start":6109.81,"end":6116.954,"text":"第1目一般事務費檢列900萬元凍結30%委員徐巧欣等人提案第508案第3目教育訓練費凍結500萬元委員陳永康等人提案第509案第3目動員整備檢列721萬1000元委員馬文君等人提案第510案至513案為第3目"},{"start":6133.038,"end":6141.441,"text":"作戰綜合作業之提案第510案一般事務費凍結300萬元委員陳永康等人提案第511案一般事務費凍結500萬元委員陳永康等人提案第512案凍結100萬元委員馬文君等人提案第513案檢列1000萬元凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等人提案第514至515案第三幕業務費之提案第514案資訊服務費"},{"start":6162.666,"end":6171.973,"text":"簡列650萬元、凍結200萬元委員馬文君等人提案第515萬業務費凍結300萬元委員黃仁等人提案第516至521案為第4目通信電子與資訊管理制提案第516案通訊費凍結500萬元委員馬文君等人提案第517案"},{"start":6186.202,"end":6193.907,"text":"資訊服務費凍結5000萬元委員毛文君等人提案第518案物品凍結100萬元委員陳永康等人提案第519案一般數費凍結100萬元委員陳永康等人提案第520案"},{"start":6200.294,"end":6207.997,"text":"簡列100萬元、凍結100萬元委員林楚英等人提案第521案、凍結30%委員徐曉新等人提案第522至525案為第4目業務費之提案第522案軍事裝備設施養物費、凍結300萬元委員陳永康等人提案第523案軍事裝備設施養物費、凍結300萬元委員陳永康等人提案"},{"start":6228.166,"end":6235.472,"text":"第524案軍事裝備設施養務費減列300萬元、凍結500萬元委員馬文君等人提案第525案車輛及辦公器具養務費減列300萬元、凍結500萬元委員馬文君等人提案第526案第6目人事費凍結30%委員徐小新等人提案第527案第13目業務費約用人員籌金減列73萬6千元委員馬文君等人提案"},{"start":6258.749,"end":6265.735,"text":"第528案第一幕業務費凍結20%委員薛曉新等提案第529至530案為第一幕情報及測量作業業務費之提案第529案軍事裝備設施養物費凍結2000萬元為馬文軍等提案第530案凍結35%委員薛曉新等提案第531案第一幕業務費"},{"start":6284.54,"end":6288.963,"text":"簡列500萬元凍結30%委員徐曉新等人提案第532案第一幕軍事醫療作業簡列160萬元委員毛文軍等人提案第533至538案為第三幕訓練綜合作業"},{"start":6298.859,"end":6306.667,"text":"業務費之提案第533案軍事裝備設施養務費凍結30%委員徐曉新等提案第534案防務建築養務費凍結50%委員徐曉新等提案第535案防務建築養務費凍結1%委員黃仁等提案"},{"start":6317.777,"end":6323.642,"text":"第536案防護建築養物費檢列500萬元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案第537案設施及機械設備養物費檢列100萬元凍結50%委員徐巧欣等提案"},{"start":6332.54,"end":6340.29,"text":"第538案設施及機械設備養物費減列100萬元、凍結200萬元為馬文君等提案第539案第4目防護建築養物費減列300萬元、凍結200萬元為馬文君等提案第540至541案為第4目通信電子與資訊管理優惠之提案"},{"start":6351.583,"end":6354.186,"text":"第540案資訊服務費檢列724萬元凍結200萬元委員馬文君等提案第541案凍結20%委員薛曉新等提案第542至543案為第4幕後勤補給支援之提案第542案"},{"start":6369.119,"end":6378.887,"text":"雜項設備費檢列300萬元委員馬文君等提案第543案檢列172萬元凍結30%委員徐巧欣等提案第544案第8目結訊網路資訊設備及作業系統提升案升級案凍結500萬元委員黃仁等提案第545案第1目一般事務費檢列249萬元委員徐巧欣等提案"},{"start":6397.438,"end":6414.947,"text":"第546至549案為主決議現在宣讀主決議之內容第546案有鑒於飛行軍官養成不義請空軍司令部後續加強飛行員求生訓練以為人員安全提案人委員陳永康等人"},{"start":6416.175,"end":6444.691,"text":"第547案審計部112年度中央政府總決算審而報告指出國軍現行心理輔導山井防處機制未能有效發掘致傷人員及時介入輔導國防部雖然以編列預算連結民間機構支援國軍人員心理輔導協處但仍未能及時防範建議應投注資源與強化基層幹部及各級心腹人員專業能力之培訓工作提案人委員陳冠廷等人"},{"start":6447.372,"end":6455.859,"text":"海軍提出新式港型拖船購置計劃總經費9億6800萬2000元辦理其成109至113年度規劃購置3200匹以上馬力拖船7艘因招標進度不順以至109至112年度預算逾8成辦理報繳鑑於海軍司令部應經積極應對提案人委員陳冠廷等人"},{"start":6475.083,"end":6498.054,"text":"第549案114年度陸軍司令部統籌各軍種需求提出新式步槍投資建案規劃籌購新型步槍及雷射模組等設備總經費81億餘元辦理其成114至118年度因列明全部計劃之內容經費總額執行期間及各年度之分配額"},{"start":6499.855,"end":6506.345,"text":"本委員會審議其建制成本之妥適性及合理性提案人委員陳冠廷等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":6523.974,"end":6542.835,"text":"我們公開預算提案的部分已經宣讀完畢我們現在改進行秘密會議秘密會議會處理我們有關機密預算的提案剛才已經宣告如果提案無法處理的我們就移到第二輪包含機密包含公開都會有第二輪的部分我們現在改進行秘密會議請議事人員清場"},{"start":14371.179,"end":14371.479,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14389.884,"end":14390.585,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":14413.642,"end":14416.264,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14441.398,"end":14441.998,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14461.551,"end":14461.971,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14476.461,"end":14476.742,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14498.589,"end":14504.183,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14512.395,"end":14514.237,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":14537.06,"end":14537.5,"text":"委員會委員會議"},{"start":14567.17,"end":14567.791,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14600.811,"end":14601.291,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14626.596,"end":14626.676,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14677.847,"end":14679.408,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14729.368,"end":14729.968,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14800.175,"end":14800.996,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14844.876,"end":14856.56,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14865.254,"end":14865.995,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16252.859,"end":16278.17,"text":"我們一點恢復開會本席在這邊先宣告我們按照審查的順序待會先從稅入的53、54、55三個稅入案開始處理稅入案處理完之後先處理國防部所屬的七個通案通案處理完接下來從入軍開始一個軍種一個軍種處理這個都跟以往是一樣的"},{"start":16281.952,"end":16297.177,"text":"我再講一次我們待會先從稅路三個案子處理稅路分別是53、54、55那稅路處理完之後呢國防部所屬單位有7個案子是通案我們通案先處理"},{"start":16298.217,"end":16320.736,"text":"通案處理完之後我們從軍種入軍開始進行主案審查另外我們併案的原則也是以分支計劃作為併案原則為了審查的效率以及把時間留在比較有不同意見的討論上對於已經溝通完均的待會請各所屬單位報告的時候如果有"},{"start":16321.457,"end":16350.518,"text":"有溝通結論直接報告溝通結論委員確認沒有問題我們就過去如果有委員要垂詢我們就詢答另外如果在公開預算部分第一輪無法達成共識的話我們就會移到第二輪如同我們剛才機密預算一樣機密預算沒有達成共識的我們會移到第二輪所以會有第二輪的機密會議第二輪的公開預算審查以上"},{"start":16353.883,"end":16364.159,"text":"本期做如此的宣告我們現在先來處理第53案53案稅錄的部分是陳冠廷委員提案來軍備局請說明"},{"start":16366.007,"end":16386.819,"text":"準備局說明第53案為陳冠廷委員針對國防部經營土地因積極活化都市土地利用感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明同意依委員的提案辦理請指導來那個陳委員沒有意見可以好這個是你是3100萬嗎沒有這是增列的部分增100萬嗎對增100萬OK好我們第53案稅率增列100萬元"},{"start":16393.973,"end":16415.94,"text":"第54案到55案兩案並案處理請征戰局的征戰局說明來征戰局報告第54案為陳冠廷委員針對其他雜項收入增列五億元的提案感謝委員的指導本案已經向委員說明建請同意改列主決議來陳委員陳委員54"},{"start":16423.278,"end":16437.753,"text":"改略主決議第55案為陳冠廷委員針對國防部應加強監督執行中科院成覽工程及研究案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明現請同意改略為主決議請指導"},{"start":16438.814,"end":16443.038,"text":"請各位委員翻到第56案到62案這是國防部所屬的通案那通案的話我們這裡有沒有併案併案的那個表呢"},{"start":16470.009,"end":16496.211,"text":"所以要一案一案來還是有在裡頭包含的就可以發言好我們現在處理到國防部所屬通案那我們合併的話也是以分支計劃啦那當然沒有提案的委員要詢問也是OK啦等一下那個不好意思委員那個剛才組決議這個地方我想要補充說明一下請說"},{"start":16498.352,"end":16504.674,"text":"中科院提到會在剩餘的資金注入民雄無人機產業園區建設上是因為這樣才增加主決議,請按照主決議執行我們預算數不動"},{"start":16523.358,"end":16546.854,"text":"稅率沒有增加但是改用主決議這對民衆很重要所以再麻煩一下我們現在從第56案馬文君委員的提案請說明偵察局說明第56案為馬文君委員針對新府人員考取證照的人數有限的提案感謝委員的指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列"},{"start":16548.574,"end":16555.499,"text":"請馬委員我們現在從那個國防部所屬的7個通案先處理第56同意照列有有有委員已經簽了好56案同意照列57、58案並案處理請說明"},{"start":16563.26,"end":16582.05,"text":"五十七案是權動署預算向下的動員準備費明年較早預算增加的情形其計算及標準為何由陳冠廷委員來提案今項委員說明已經了解到相關的計算標準建請同意預算照列來陳委員"},{"start":16584.611,"end":16592.855,"text":"已經有提供公司計算同意照列好57、58同意照列來接下來是第59案請說明對這個緊接嘛"},{"start":16605.02,"end":16622.65,"text":"這個到軍總的時候總共跟相關的有14個提案那這邊先針對委員提案的內容做一下簡單的說明第一個就是智慧型警戒我們從109年執行到現在一開始是碰到紅色工藝鏈的問題接著是得標廠商有入資的問題接著"},{"start":16625.903,"end":16644.571,"text":"現在又有跟各軍總他本身的工程或是新安工程延宕相關的問題所以在今年上半年的時候統建的單位陸軍司令部把整個案子從原本114年完成延後一年到115年完成但是這邊在跟各位委員報告就是今年下半年"},{"start":16646.107,"end":16666.92,"text":"我找各軍總參謀長我們每個月開一次會去協調彼此的工程的配合程度因為有很多營區不是只有我們的警戒系統在使用因為我們待會其實進到各軍總軍頭案的時候警戒系統很多提案14個案這個是通案的部分那你跟陳慧琳委員溝通的有沒有結論現在是講哪一個案子第59案我們是"},{"start":16669.842,"end":16696.873,"text":"通案這是通案我們待會到軍投案的時候這些部分還會再討論我們是同意改動是兩百萬我記得沒錯是是是已經有發生故障是一千多次喔是這個一定要檢討這跟委員報告就是有關故障的部分我們從今年開始所有的盡頭交機的時候我們做30秒的進水測試進水測試30秒以上才算合格第二個就是今年幾次重要的颱風我們今年的因為風災的"},{"start":16698.354,"end":16698.374,"text":"委員（"},{"start":16711.175,"end":16734.672,"text":"第59案凍結兩百萬書面報告後使得凍資然後58案不好意思趙偉因為58案我們記得我們跟他們的溝通結果是修正文字後改動50萬三個月內剛才已經同意趙烈了同意了嗎這個案子已經過去了我說57案趙烈可是58案沒關係沒關係可以可以我們已經過去盡量不要待會否則這樣會開不完好那就趕快來"},{"start":16738.274,"end":16747.65,"text":"接下來第60案的通案來請說明業管說明要不要我直接講這樣比較快"},{"start":16748.616,"end":16748.896,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16780.477,"end":16804.825,"text":"60、169及379三案總共凍結兩百萬元但要經同一時的凍支那我希望了解的理由是呢國軍要確保步槍跟這個步槍配件的模組的數量要一定要相當然後呢每日含的步槍兵他們都有配這個步槍跟模組那軍備局我希望能夠回答就是說以色列公司向軍備局"},{"start":16806.565,"end":16825.916,"text":"提出的存證信函當時在2024年11月19日的時候就有關於這個T112步槍裝備的相關的這個專利疑似侵權的這個問題那呢裝彈器的規格然後藍圖涉嫌抄襲的部分希望一併回應那我這三案如果併案兩百萬凍結"},{"start":16828.237,"end":16835.628,"text":"徐委員因為你的另外兩案有的在憲兵有在那邊我沒辦法這樣併我到那邊會再另外處理我們這個案子凍結200萬那個軍備局有沒有問題"},{"start":16840.266,"end":16862.02,"text":"這是陸軍的陸軍的有問題報召委還有許委員陸軍這邊報告謝謝委員的這個凍結數下修但是容我報告那個參謀長因為這個案子後面十幾個案因為可云芝所以你們要不要沒有這個後面因為這是通案所以如果你同意這兩百萬我就先就這樣子的決議"},{"start":16863.721,"end":16872.169,"text":"我們待會進到各軍種其實這個都會再討論都會再討論我不會去併後面的案子把它併掉啦後面還會再分裂處理同意一下就凍結200萬提書面資料使得凍支謝謝委員指導好 這個第60案凍結200萬書面報告後使得凍支來第61案沈博洋委員的提案請葉管說明"},{"start":16886.142,"end":16913.474,"text":"第60案為沈博洋委員對一般裝備的提案指導委員關心有關無人機空域的問題本案已向委員說明建請同意明與凍結進行指導好我說明一下我這邊沒有什麼問題因為總共問了7個提問包含這一個是否有優先權還有空域的機敏性等等的問題所以就依照國防部的建議謝謝好同意照列第61案第62案是林柱英委員的提案請葉管說明"},{"start":16916.062,"end":16943.426,"text":"軍備局第62案為林楚英委員針對國軍新安裝案應加強督管感謝委員的指導並且本案昨日已由陸軍的參謀長跟本人一致向林楚英委員來說明我們後續的一個督管的狀況建請同意三減一千萬科目自行調整凍結五億元並向委員會提出書面報告後實得動之來請提案委員"},{"start":16943.966,"end":16963.751,"text":"這個案子我很堅持就是因為你們來協商了4次但是我要強調的是如果說國軍你們在工程當中你們是最後的決定單位但是如果說這個事情你們始終無法做最後定奪連外部委員找來還是無法定奪最後送到工程會我覺得這種處理的方法是我無法接受的所以我現在請陸軍在座說明你們會怎麼處理"},{"start":16968.201,"end":16990.848,"text":"報告委員這個案子也就是我們找了外省委員那當初就希望能夠先行能夠在送工程會之前獲得一個共識但是畢竟我們沒有辦法去影響外省委員的決定他也是學者專家那外省委員他無法達成共識是我們意料之外那所以我們進行了送工程會第5次調解"},{"start":16991.989,"end":16999.219,"text":"這個案子齁我不想要影響大家的時間但是我一定要在這邊再講出來如果你入軍是這樣我不能接受或是送到第二輪"},{"start":17000.307,"end":17024.466,"text":"再來討論你們所得標的這一個所謂的專案管理公司在兩年內就有23次的維持結果它居然是一個業管的專案單位然後它造成了整個施工無法驗收或是造成爭議你們無法處理所以我要求的就是像這種劣跡公司你在招標的時候就要標註而且不是只要標註公司而且負責人的名稱你這會變成是你們國軍自己的這個不是剛剛我們討論那些機密的軍購喔"},{"start":17030.51,"end":17049.366,"text":"這就是一個建設的工程營區的工程如果你們最後稱為業主的國軍無法自己來做定奪找了外部單位也無法定奪然後你就推給這個有問題的所謂的專管公司那我覺得這樣子你們未來你們所有的施工品質如何做保障那我覺得你們這樣的處理方式是我沒有辦法指什麼三一千萬會動多少錢對我堅持要到第二輪"},{"start":17061.128,"end":17080.379,"text":"陸軍,你們這有沒有溝通過啊?這個主要是...你的溝通我沒有接受喔有溝通過,但是...跟我講一分鐘的話我不能接受,放到第二輪第62案把它挪到第二輪,第二輪處理移到第二輪第63案請說明63"},{"start":17087.447,"end":17112.555,"text":"6364我一起講好不好因為其實我們之前都有溝通過那65黃人委員其實跟你們這性質一樣你們要三個案一起弄好我比較多我比較多因為我的狀況不一樣那這個是應該陸軍非常清楚他們過去有一個疏失就是呢他們在這個做懲戒行為的時候那對於我們的這個國軍的處理行為是有瑕疵然後法規引用不當的這個問題"},{"start":17113.955,"end":17130.583,"text":"所以後來他們也有給我回覆一些撤銷四大過的撤紙撤銷人憑會汰除的一些說明但我覺得類似的事情我不希望再發生所以說63跟64凍結300萬元希望他們能夠再檢討不知道國防部能否同意歡迎入軍謝委員知道等一下預算我待會處理那個黃任委員要不要預算黃任委員有那個嗎"},{"start":17142.236,"end":17142.857,"text":"陸軍檢要說明"},{"start":17159.593,"end":17176.75,"text":"謝委員的指導陸軍一委員的指導建議同意在63、64凍結金額300萬元提出的資料因為這兩個案的分支不一樣還是我集中在你第一個案之後好了"},{"start":17177.466,"end":17178.788,"text":"第63案凍結300萬書面報告後使得凍支64案同意照列65案改組決議第66案請說明"},{"start":17200.083,"end":17200.544,"text":"審柏洋委員"},{"start":17215.311,"end":17238.432,"text":"這是反攻復活群因為畢竟已經有12個人已經進去了那我知道現在要盤點這些人要看一些文件需要花一點時間但我還是希望第一個就是上面寫說希望在三個月之內能夠盤點完畢這是第一個在主決議的部分第二個我覺得最重要的事情就是我記得好像接下來在一些其他的特定的活動的時候也會把他們列入是不是也把這個放到主決議"},{"start":17239.772,"end":17245.375,"text":"反共救國軍同意改組決議沈伯陽委員的66案改組決議請陸軍注意組決議的內容接下來第67到68案併案說明請陸軍說明"},{"start":17256.601,"end":17271.012,"text":"第6768案為馬文俊委員針對計畫管理作業的科目預算提案指導那以上兩案已向委員說明第67案同意委員提案辦理第68案建請同意名語三檢及凍結進行指導來請馬委員"},{"start":17274.509,"end":17278.331,"text":"這個部分同意67案凍結20萬不過這個錢很少可是我們特別提出來是因為我們希望提出說明的時候你增加一倍的預算可是你的理由是說因為我們增加了32個單位所以我們增加我們編了268萬可是你268萬如果分給32個單位一個單位才幾千塊你要用一年"},{"start":17298.999,"end":17299.059,"text":"第69案請說明"},{"start":17323.073,"end":17331.424,"text":"第69案為林楚瑩委員針對管考作業科目預算提案指導本案同意依委員提案辦理進行指導"},{"start":17332.748,"end":17354.854,"text":"提案委員因為這個6269其實是相關聯的就是我講的專管合約國防部應該擁有最終的合定權但是如果說現在就推給外部專家外部專家又說意見不一又無法做成決定那最後就選在那邊那我建議就是6269是不是就一併留到第二輪等一下結束之後你們再來跟我說明看你們最後會怎麼樣來針對這種遇到爭議的時候國防部是如何來處置"},{"start":17360.816,"end":17373.468,"text":"提醒國防部我們在PCM對工程的管理有一套標準作業流程遇到爭議也有一套標準作業流程一方面是為了防避二方面也是為了保護軍方作業的人"},{"start":17376.371,"end":17398.48,"text":"所以我建議你們跟提案委員要好好溝通這個作業方式是通案都是這樣處理還是這個個案因為PCM有問題所以造成的通案不能自愛難行好我們把69案跟前面那案一併移到第二輪然後這個第70案到第71案來請併案說明"},{"start":17401.605,"end":17423.121,"text":"第77議案為徐曉興等兩位委員（針對行政事務的提案指導以上兩案已經向委員說明（或提供完整的書面資料考量案內的預算為執行基層單位（他基本行政工作的推廣以及官兵生活設施改善和救災（等事務支出的必要經費建請徐委員同意免於凍結並盡情指導好來提案委員冠廷委員有沒有什麼要先說的"},{"start":17431.152,"end":17432.053,"text":"你的預算呢?"},{"start":17448.11,"end":17469.361,"text":"我這邊只是同意造列啦或者是變動也可以那這樣的話呢因為我的想法也是一樣的主要會凍結的理由也是希望能夠像是一些參訪接待肯定環境佈置等等能夠這個盡量的來這個尊潔那但如果是這樣子的話冠廷委員本來是凍結100萬嘛那我們折衷我凍結50萬元請問這陸軍這邊是否可以"},{"start":17475.365,"end":17499.301,"text":"7071案病案凍結50萬以徐曉欣委員為主題案書面報告後使得凍之這是7071案你那個是肯清會是新兵在肯清喔就是對部隊肯清每個新兵肯清只想看到自己要的人來你們布置什麼花花草草沒有人在看會中委員指導來見面的人比較重要"},{"start":17501.462,"end":17516.087,"text":"72案請說明72案為馬雲軍委員針對政戰綜合作業費的提案指導本項已向委員說明建議同意免於三檢及凍結進行指導同意照列好同意照列72案同意照列來73案請說明"},{"start":17517.887,"end":17531.417,"text":"第73案為馬雲君委員針對軍事醫療作業的科目預算提案指導那委員關心有相關的這個物品預算編列的問題那本案已向委員說明建起同意下修凍結金額3000萬提書面報告時的凍資進行委員指導好提案委員請說就這個部分我想請教陸軍我們在比如說像"},{"start":17542.493,"end":17552.546,"text":"緊急衛材跟藥材（還有我們的戰傷救護急救包（這個部分近三年總共花多少預算（包括全軍的（你們不是陸軍統建的嗎（近三年這樣總共用多少預算了（"},{"start":17568.472,"end":17575.042,"text":"跟委員報告截至目前為止我們在111到113已經採購了347,611組的33急救包"},{"start":17583.945,"end":17588.387,"text":"目前就是不足有9179組那預划在114年來辦理採購這是第一個補充說明的那114才編列3億餘元來執行總共多少預算"},{"start":17602.082,"end":17613.124,"text":"如果你連你所謂的9萬多再補上去要40幾你要買至少40幾萬的急救包是含動員部隊的整體預算是整個要籌補完是16億6千3百餘萬元"},{"start":17625.687,"end":17653.048,"text":"分別在111年、112、113分別是3億、111是3億餘元、112是5億餘元、113是4億餘元整個111到113加合起來是12億餘元的預算然後你還要再買對這是最後一批最後一批還要再買多少3億所以你總共至少有16億總共是37,790組"},{"start":17656.474,"end":17660.796,"text":"所以平常我們在就是我們現在常備役大概是買多少?"},{"start":17682.023,"end":17707.051,"text":"目前常備役補充的就是之前籌補的這34萬這裏面大概有沒有常備的就是我們一般的你是把後備也算進去對所以整體後備的缺邊都一併要算沒有你先用我們這個就是我們一般的常備的兵役後備的先不要算是常備有多少目前以常備現在陸海空三軍加起來編制大概是將近20萬"},{"start":17709.246,"end":17721.475,"text":"有那麼多嗎編制啊我講編制數你買的是給是實用的嘛所以你如果都按編制數那你的那個數額就會超高了啦所以我現在要講的是我們從111年買到現在我們已經花了大概16億多了12億多對將近12億然後你還要再買"},{"start":17733.644,"end":17743.971,"text":"可是這中間還有一部分你除了買這些如果買到主要16億多可是你每三年就第三年的時候你又要再編預算其實要把那個到期的又要再換掉對不對所以這樣你的那個金額會不會高的離譜因為我想我們包括所有現在很多的醫院"},{"start":17755.498,"end":17755.538,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":17771.192,"end":17771.232,"text":"主席"},{"start":17790.299,"end":17791.72,"text":"剛剛我們提到所有的醫院其實他們在跨要道的包括藥品或醫材其實他們不管透過原來的廠商也好或者其他的方式也好就像你們的彈藥也會出塵就是海推塵"},{"start":17806.187,"end":17810.89,"text":"所以就這個部分你如果像這樣子的預算的使用我覺得非常浪費另外還有一個我們後備的你現在買那麼多其實它根本沒有用到你真的就是把它擺到壞而已所以你應該要去檢視說應該要怎麼樣去運用這些東西然後它應該要買多少數量因為你如果沒有用的你現在買來擺著要做什麼我們想不出來所以這個部分"},{"start":17833.464,"end":17839.626,"text":"我們要求一定要凍結而且一定要去所以凍結3000萬3000萬我們希望先跟大家說明一下因為這一筆預算真的太高了而且他不斷不斷的一定要花而且是浪費掉了我不知道他過期的用在哪裡謝謝馬委員這個軍總或者是國防部這邊可能要思考當然我知道這有點兩難就是我編制多少我籌貨應該是每個人一組但可能用不到因為我編制沒那麼大"},{"start":17862.395,"end":17862.995,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17879.405,"end":17905.573,"text":"簡少浪費當然我們是希望臨時緊急動員因為國家什麼時候遭遇到這個我們難測嘛所以希望是每一個被動員的人都要有但是確實如馬委員所說的這些單位可能三年他就要淘汰那一定要換啊你也不能用過期的所以要抓一個均速達到我臨時要補期我補得上來但是我平時放著又不浪費這個是一個管理的藝術這個坦白講這沒有絕對對跟錯我最好是100%"},{"start":17906.513,"end":17906.913,"text":"第73案動3千萬書面報告經同意後使得動之"},{"start":17932.551,"end":17938.393,"text":"主要馬文君委員是針對教育行政裡面的資訊軟體設備雜項設備費用增加以及資訊服務費用增加那另外王定委員關心的是國軍組戰編"},{"start":17959.298,"end":17971.015,"text":"主戰部隊的邊縣（還有志願役官兵的軍費（志願士兵及軍費生的（申請前退伍等案（以上5案一項委員說明建請同意（免於刪減及凍結進行指導來提案委員馬委員"},{"start":17977.57,"end":17987.335,"text":"雖然這三案同意並案然後照列不過就這個部分我們看到今年明年114年很多軍事院校他的軟硬體有要更新的部分我覺得非常離譜因為我們看到很多的照片我們所有的軍事院校其實他是我們軍事人才養成的一個地方可是他有些硬體真的是破舊不堪這個我不知道"},{"start":18005.063,"end":18005.083,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":18034.24,"end":18053.093,"text":"我曾經去看國防大學我那時候還幫他們要了新安專案的經費就是我們現在招訓學生不要再演黃埔軍魂了那個硬體裝備那個在吊漆啦什麼的那些都是軍官啦所以我是贊成我們除了到部隊的新安專案以外我們的軍事院校"},{"start":18053.473,"end":18053.793,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":18070.057,"end":18070.518,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":18095.241,"end":18120.257,"text":"我在歸人一個媽媽爸爸親自帶著一個小朋友他的孩子是在智能上有一些輕度的障礙被一個木兵講得花言巧語說進去可以照顧他簽完了要帶他去當兵了他爸媽說這真的假的就帶到我那邊來結果那一個木兵的人還衝到我的辦公室我本人在場好像我搶了他嘴巴的肉一樣進來氣急敗壞要把這個兵帶走"},{"start":18123.854,"end":18147.91,"text":"穆賓是一個榮譽當兵也是一個榮譽所以在穆賓的手法上我贊成我們國防部提高那些不管是薪資待遇不管是尊榮感這個讓留營的意願提高但穆賓人員我們下的KPI他達標的方式如果不擇手段有時候反而招了一個兵毀了一個軍團的那個軍譽這個不好所以我同意照列了這些部分請你們改進來馬委員"},{"start":18149.151,"end":18158.235,"text":"謝謝主席我再補充一下因為我們看到媒體有提到說包括我們中國現代史要改成世界歷史或者國英文的學分要縮減我們如果說像我們現在有很多我看明年的預算還有編要去上英文課那你又把學校的英文學分把它減掉"},{"start":18168.899,"end":18168.959,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":18197.856,"end":18201.317,"text":"在他應該有的職能他的學養其實應該要養成就要養成你國文跟英文差的話那你以後你要怎麼樣去看我們很多的包括我們出去受訓的都已經受到影響了這些如果你在這樣撿沒有理由我們要去支持很多其他的預算"},{"start":18218.732,"end":18219.614,"text":"74-78案同意照列現在處理79-81案"},{"start":18231.021,"end":18253.723,"text":"第79到81案為馬文軍等兩位委員針對動員整備的科目預算提案指導第19案馬文軍委員關心其他業務的租金預算增加第80案為王定宇委員關心部分後備部隊所需的武器裝備尚未籌貨第81案為馬文軍委員關心要精實"},{"start":18256.145,"end":18265.21,"text":"教育召集預算的編列以上三項委員說明建請同意並按凍結500萬元提出書面報告時的動資進行指導麻煩委員請謝謝主席針對這個部分大概就是針對教召整備的我們花很多的錢去租流動廁所還有像一些洗澡的地方還有場地的租金我們花很多錢可是"},{"start":18284.232,"end":18284.592,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":18304.893,"end":18305.073,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18325.643,"end":18325.884,"text":"（處理（三天一次會議（三天一次會議"},{"start":18341.307,"end":18360.678,"text":"我的提案是針對你們裝備籌貨特別是群動組成立之後還有我們的後備部隊不管是防毒面具、火炮類的裝備、兵器或者是望遠鏡、夜視鏡等等籌貨的進度都有一些慢像我們夜視鏡那是官方管的問題那已經慢了很久了"},{"start":18361.899,"end":18374.268,"text":"提案是凍結希望讓你們的書面報告要涵蓋籌貨的時程我不要看到形容詞形容詞叫競速時程是我哪個年度什麼時候可以籌貨籌貨的變數是什麼把它寫清楚兩個案並案"},{"start":18378.251,"end":18379.352,"text":"以王定宇委員的第80案"},{"start":18397.92,"end":18408.51,"text":"為主提案並按凍結500萬元書面報告後使得凍支好接下來來處理82到91案來葉管請說明第82到91案為陳冠廷等三位委員針對訓練綜合作業費的科目預算提案指導那"},{"start":18423.242,"end":18446.914,"text":"82及83案為陳冠廷及馬文君兩位委員共同關心按日計酬的預算資金的增加那84及88案為陳冠廷及馬文君委員關心靶場自動化靶機設置的預算編列的情形第85案為陳冠廷委員關心砲訓部的簽借預算編列第86案為馬文君委員關心物品"},{"start":18447.973,"end":18474.033,"text":"預算的增加87案為馬雲軍委員關心無人機訓練中心的相關的訓練規劃第89案為陳冠廷委員關心國內旅費重複編列的一個情況第90案為馬雲軍委員關心軍事交流訓練的預算編列91案為陳冠廷委員關心無人機合格操作手術量不足的問題那以上10案已經向委員說明那第"},{"start":18476.214,"end":18485.137,"text":"82、83案建請同意並按凍結200萬元提出書面報告後時的凍資84、88案建請同意並按凍結500萬元提出書面報告85、86案建請同意並按凍結700萬元提出書面報告後時的凍資87、89、91案建請同意並按凍結1000萬元提出書面報告"},{"start":18501.081,"end":18511.494,"text":"使得動之第90案建請同意免於動機你這個是總數加起來你這樣子我們的病案通常是一個數額你現在是每一個分別數額嗎"},{"start":18513.767,"end":18515.047,"text":"提案委員有沒有意見"},{"start":18541.013,"end":18541.073,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":18561.832,"end":18583.939,"text":"包括初中階幹部其實營聯長大概就是初中階的幹部所以在開訓的時候結訓也都是部隊幹部那他的科目是什麼現在甚至連生理、健康管理、親子關係這個全部都是委外的老師現在全部都是外包你的預算經費高達"},{"start":18585.339,"end":18586.04,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":18610.282,"end":18610.562,"text":"我把我的一次講完好了"},{"start":18638.931,"end":18639.492,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":18658.194,"end":18661.078,"text":"因為每一個靶場它不一定都是標準場地所以你在這樣子的規劃之下有時候又有這樣的變動然後要可惜式的啦或者靶機啦或者要做三個靶場啊都不是同時去做考量規劃所以我覺得這個"},{"start":18674.654,"end":18676.915,"text":"委員提到,我們有很多的,不管是陣地靶場（或者很多的營建工程（我們幾乎沒有一件是在我們時間內（把它完成的,每一件都延宕（"},{"start":18691.821,"end":18691.981,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":18712.014,"end":18715.276,"text":"在預算的時候都說非常的急然後蓋了10年有的蓋了10年還沒有完成我們都不知道為什麼他會要預算那麼急然後在蓋的過程卻可以讓他不斷不斷的有事情發生那另外86案的部分這個也是原來的砲校他搬到關廟那還要再花3000多萬去做教育設備"},{"start":18740.936,"end":18745.737,"text":"然後我們賣地的時候因為你像205廠在簽的時候他是可能把他是工程跟設備都一起含在內可是我們在砲校又把它分開你只有銀色設備又要另外再買所以我們在很多在談的時候跟地方政府當他要我們土地的時候我們應該要把我們的需求或者我們應該要怎麼樣把我們的運用的完整性應該也要一併考量這個顯然也都沒有做到那"},{"start":18770.282,"end":18783.456,"text":"。（"},{"start":18783.817,"end":18783.857,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":18804.673,"end":18824.425,"text":"我們希望就是說我們為什麼不要在各兵科裡面他的學校就多一門課就好了啊不然你還要弄一個無人機的一個訓練中心我們在我們的各兵科學校你如果增加這個課程然後以後他就可以一步一步然後大家都可以學會你學基礎的"},{"start":18825.926,"end":18848.113,"text":"應該是比較好你不是大家都是只有少數人然後一次你如果要全軍訓練好像也沒有必要因為大概還是會分配他的任務走向所以這個部分我們也希望說在未來應該要做一個比較完整的規劃因為未來無人機會是我們很多的重點那你如果都還要去專門再去訓練中心我想這個也會影響其他的業務發展"},{"start":18853.015,"end":18855.657,"text":"黃仁委員後來再換陳冠廷委員來請黃仁委員剛剛參謀長沒有點到我針對91案的這個部分"},{"start":18863.379,"end":18888.156,"text":"那經過你們的說明目前的採購的摩羯無人機已經全數的膠裝完畢但是執政力並達到這個百分之百但還要提醒提醒我們的陸軍由於每一型無人機的功能操作在任務重疊的不同這個執政力只代表能飛是否能熟悉戰術應用哪要持續的信念並強化所以我"},{"start":18892.038,"end":18916.37,"text":"這裏建議凍結兩百萬預算我待會來分配請陳冠廷委員我概略把這十個案講幾個重點就是書面報告的幾個重點第一個就是說很多的預算是項目龐雜目的又不一這個東西在書面報告的時候請麻煩給我一個比較簡單的回覆再來就是說我們這個無人機的部分你這個無人機組"},{"start":18917.23,"end":18945.892,"text":"入軍有25%沒有達到無人機的操作資格還有復訊的時候沒有達到規定標準跟這些還有技術上面的訊號異常、情質平台不流暢這些這個書面報告一定要把我這個填列上去這個也是很重要然後最後我們看到一些履費的部分是不是有重複編列的這個麻煩書面報告的時候一併來幫我們講清楚那原則上就是動的這個就我現在處理了因為剛才入軍有做了一些大家協調好的第一個"},{"start":18948.028,"end":18956.494,"text":"82案、83案以馬文君委員的83案為主題案並案凍結200萬書面報告後使得凍支再來84跟88案"},{"start":18963.999,"end":18970.261,"text":"以馬文君委員的84案為主提案並案凍結500萬元書面報告後使得凍支再來85、86、85、86兩個吧85、86案以陳冠廷委員的第85案為主提案並案凍結700萬元再來是87"},{"start":18990.109,"end":19009.249,"text":"八十九、九十、九十一這四個案子並案凍結一千萬以黃人委員的提案為主題案並案凍結一千萬有比黃人委員期待的高很多了謝謝希望我們那個案子我們希望經同意謝謝全部嗎"},{"start":19010.991,"end":19012.473,"text":"經同意後,使得動之。"},{"start":19030.653,"end":19057.542,"text":"還有那個水土保持師再見就去做生意然後還挖到古蹟就很多奇奇怪怪的事情他確實有延宕後來他的機電工程又斷供所以延宕到現在造成物調影響很大這是第一個第二個那因為在那個關廟那個地方周邊要有聯絡道路所以後來有多開了一條那個要求多開那一條的那一位委員現在不在本委員會了那個馬委員你是誰"},{"start":19060.598,"end":19087.095,"text":"所以那個多花了4700是由市政府來做處理的所以大概是這樣原因那這樣原因下我建議陸軍因為砲校已經延宕太久我上次已經跟會刊的時候已經講過了你們設的節點是明年度要搬但是你們的工程能不能明年度完成取得鑑識照可能要盯緊一點要跟台南市政府公務局"},{"start":19089.164,"end":19089.424,"text":"主席﹗﹗"},{"start":19111.656,"end":19113.498,"text":"國防部主管收支公開及機密部分．"},{"start":19131.259,"end":19159.572,"text":"有時候很難去堅持組長就把那個因素找出來就是國軍各訓場各營舍長期都有延宕、招標不順遂甚至於後面要檢向檢量等等把那因素列出來那可能做一個做一個檢討我們希望未來看到我們相關的訓場都能夠如期如質否則如期如質這四個字是最常在軍方聽到的可是其實好像很難做到這個務必寫在報告裡面好不好是"},{"start":19161.077,"end":19178.754,"text":"主席我補充一下就這個部分我們還發現到一個問題因為我們大概所有的案子因為都不小不管模擬管也好就從過去到現在它大概比較嚴重的還包括我們很多像我們的基地也是"},{"start":19180.202,"end":19182.263,"text":"他大概就是專管跟那個同胞還有那個廠商這些的對象其實甚至都可以不聽我們業主的一個意見他想要怎麼樣就怎麼樣所以不斷的延宕然後跟他溝通也無效因為部長是法律出身的我們希望未來是不是在合約的部分可以怎麼樣去規範因為其他的"},{"start":19209.202,"end":19222.967,"text":"行政單位並沒有發生這樣的狀況沒有理由我們需求單位沒有講不上話這個在林楚瑩委員移到第二輪的大概是這方面不過我知道軍方有一個就是"},{"start":19224.448,"end":19244.742,"text":"他去違反專案管理或者違反外部委員軍方最怕人家講你們一句土利你們就縮起來了所以可能從合約面以及參酌其他工程的管理面否則軍方在這件事情上因為弱勢所以業主的聲音不見然後你們是受害最後被定的也是你們這個我們"},{"start":19246.443,"end":19256.496,"text":"一併請在這幾個凍結案的書面報告的時候請把它列入那也許我們到第二輪處理林委員的那個提案的時候可以更詳細的說明好 我們這個案子到這邊好不好"},{"start":19259.677,"end":19261.058,"text":"92案為陳冠廷委員針對教育訓練業務的提案指導"},{"start":19277.892,"end":19296.271,"text":"939393939393"},{"start":19297.028,"end":19318.098,"text":"第9397案為沈伯陽等四位委員針對一般彈藥購置與維護的科目預算提案指導本部說明第93、95及97案為沈伯陽、徐曉新及林玉君委員關心紅準火箭彈的穿甲能力、射程及性價比"},{"start":19318.958,"end":19348.067,"text":"又於六六火箭彈已經服役40餘年其彈藥的穩定及效能已經逐年地衰退中科院在研發紅准成功後陸續治繳了海軍陸戰隊、憲兵及海巡等使用的狀況良好國軍依我們的作戰任務需求而且是依照一個國防自主的政策在不受國際局勢的影響之下採購紅准火箭彈來取代六六火箭彈以符合作戰時需第二個有關於在六六火箭彈的價格方面"},{"start":19348.587,"end":19349.247,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19368.277,"end":19388.365,"text":"有太大的落差另外中科院也針對紅樽火箭彈完成了君子裝甲的測試另外針對近期有兩枚不發彈的狀況中科院也研判出是傳火管的斷裂後續在實彈射擊的時候也都會派員針對彈檢和相關的社訊來實施檢驗以及相關的一個回饋"},{"start":19397.851,"end":19406.318,"text":"另外針對有關於刻畫錯誤的狀況其實這是在訓練上面可以並沒有刻畫錯誤的狀況在訓練後的使用狀況是良好第94案是馬雲軍委員關心軍購調漲近年受俄武戰爭等因素的影響國際的中華戰略物資短缺114年對彈藥的軍售"},{"start":19426.094,"end":19453.16,"text":"調整的項目均屬於國軍的戰略的緊需項目為了滿足需求及補充存量然後經評估後仍然循軍售的管道來辦理並依發架書來辦理各項的採購事宜那第96案為徐曉新委員關心軍購採購的龐大的瑕疵那有關美方披露的有一些部分這個存管不當的那戲為美方的無償軍援並非我們投入"},{"start":19454.18,"end":19477.342,"text":"預算向媒採購的案項以上上案已向委員提供說明或完整資料考量案內的預算為國軍反中華部隊訓練以及戰備工作推動的彈藥所需建請同意凍結2000萬元提出書面報告後使得動資進行製造"},{"start":19478.824,"end":19489.039,"text":"請提案委員詢問,來,沈博洋委員那這一個案子我覺得因為這個案子我們也看了很久那最主要現在我們在之前的專案已經有現在有彈簧刀嘛彈簧刀應該要買300應該要買個600架左右嘛對不對然後還有那個LTS600嘛"},{"start":19494.407,"end":19516.081,"text":"再加上就是我們不知道之後會不會有古斯塔夫就是美國不知道會不會願意出手所以我們現在到底我們是需要多少的這一個紅准我們不是說紅准完全不行就是說我們現在還不論說是紅准跟之前66火箭彈的一個差異但就是說我們到底需求有多少需不需要到那麼多我覺得這個可能還是要有一個順便的報告還是要去評估"},{"start":19517.121,"end":19545.737,"text":"後來有給我們看新的測試報告比較陽春一點但是比之前大家批評的那一個我覺得是好像不少但是我覺得是不是這個一併都要先說明可能會比較好一點那個紅准的部分坦白講花了錢重量從兩公斤多變成五公斤變重結果攝距離增加不多穿甲能力增加不多後面還會噴火焰後面你們那個海報後面站一個憲兵那個根本會BBQ了"},{"start":19546.863,"end":19571.86,"text":"所以紅準一行你們對外宣稱的穿甲效能還有它的測試方法被質疑很多比如說你們不是用軍職裝甲來測試一開始然後你們還把那個彈埋在一個很奇怪的測試法就把頭對著地板然後這樣去測它的熱焰可以穿入的方式所以坦白講"},{"start":19573.001,"end":19598.538,"text":"而且你們是把它當作彈藥在採購你們那個測評花那麼多錢花那麼多時間重量增加那麼多結果跟66比起來比66還要不方便的話那我真的是希望中科院跟陸軍要思考我們要給國軍弟兄用的是好用可以用的東西如果還要跑到這麼前面距離只剩200米然後呢沒有打到履帶"},{"start":19599.827,"end":19603.63,"text":"徐曉欣委員徐曉欣委員後再來換林益君委員這個關於紅准的這個部分那我基本上也跟在定宇昭偉的想法一樣第一個就是說我希望可以得到說明的是說"},{"start":19622.145,"end":19638.355,"text":"在有效射程裡面呢那我們在陸軍這邊提供給媒體的這個裝備簡介上是有效射程是220公尺但是先前的時候呢就是你們先前在做然後跟在談論這個事情的時候以中科院說法是有400公尺嘛"},{"start":19638.835,"end":19667.868,"text":"那就從400變220那大家就會質疑說那跟原本的這66有什麼差別那這個就會讓大家產生很多質疑第二個是我們有沒有就在很多的測試裡面我們有沒有去測試過我們官兵他們我們軍隊他們在攜帶作戰的時候戰術他動作使用的回饋好因為包含剛才談到的重量包含談到他的這個操作好的相關回饋那我們的這個軍人他們感感受是如何的"},{"start":19668.888,"end":19673.47,"text":"最後因為我們現在是一併討論93-97案對不對再來的話就是我的我剛剛95案是針對紅准96案是針對這個我們的軍購的PDA的這個部分雖然我知道這個PDA是免費的但是我們在國防部這裡在跟美方的溝通的部分看起來是有一些問題的因為"},{"start":19696.138,"end":19720.699,"text":"美方他們自己的監察報告裡面都有提到運送的問題然後但是我方跟對方的這個溝通包含我們回復得到的回復所知到底這個PDA的貨運抵到台灣是由美方人員押運還是非美方的承包商給國防部的這一點呢國防部的說法跟美國國防監察報告也是不一樣的"},{"start":19721.4,"end":19721.62,"text":"李懿君委員"},{"start":19747.662,"end":19767.761,"text":"我是97案因為國防部在上個月的時候自己邀媒體現場公佈紅准的穿甲能力的數據然後結果反而遭到質疑穿甲能力不足那研發火箭彈的目的不是就是要發射讓戰車或裝甲車失能嗎表示中科院研發的紅准射程和穿身能力可能根本就是不足以破壞戰車和裝甲車"},{"start":19770.664,"end":19780.852,"text":"還有紅准的RHA的穿深值只是推估值（似乎也沒有做過什麼實際的測試（何況這個一顆造價還要花費了10萬元（然後如果用世界公認最有效的瑞典的也才4.7萬元（然後結果我們中科院竟然還可以研發（不但更貴而且還沒有辦法發揮功能（所以這筆預算我堅持凍結50%（如果不同意的話就建議主席保留送協商"},{"start":19801.161,"end":19805.524,"text":"這個預算的部分因為這個是分支計劃你的50%可能不僅僅是紅准所以我們剛才有提說凍結2000萬我們待會再處理預算數換馬文君委員來謝謝是94案那針對因為我們非常多的彈藥首先其實我的提案討論的凍結數是2億"},{"start":19828.988,"end":19829.028,"text":"主席"},{"start":19844.192,"end":19844.332,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":19863.226,"end":19869.508,"text":"他不是只有個位數的增加或十位數的增加他是百分之一百二十六這對我們來說會造成非常大的負擔而且我們不斷的越買越多那平均的漲幅至少都有百分之二十三在台美關係現在這麼緊密的狀況之下我們希望國防部可以想辦法跟美方洽談因為漲幅如果超過百分之二或者甚至更高其實對我們的負擔還有我們的預算其實都增加以外"},{"start":19892.356,"end":19895.139,"text":"對我們的獲得其實也造成影響像我們目前有非常多的款項已經付了可是我們事實上也沒有到貨脫勢非但有車沒蛋啊有很多東西都是這樣所以我們希望這個部分是對美的部分我們希望可以有主決議"},{"start":19910.345,"end":19913.169,"text":"另外還有就是大家都講到紅准的部分紅准本來在我們205場還沒拆遷之前我們有XYZ的還有跟203我們有三個產線槍彈還有像這樣子的一個藥"},{"start":19927.649,"end":19931.791,"text":"我們原來還可以自己生產藥柱可是現在顯然我們的藥柱來源就是我們的生產製造好像有問題所以造成是不是洪準在測試的時候造成一些問題我想這個應該要把它查查清楚因為66火箭彈跟洪準它的不同是在藥柱的部分它不管是大小還有它的"},{"start":19952.519,"end":19957.621,"text":"．19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日"},{"start":19973.993,"end":19978.676,"text":"請需要新聞委員不好意思我剛漏講了一個部分就是說到時候的這個報告裡面我希望陸軍這邊可以針對因為保護國軍安全第一批的PDA來的時候他確實有一些比方說像抗彈板戰術背心等等的是有問題的然後還有槍支散裝的狀況都是事實那是不是我們在這部分也能夠去查核說還"},{"start":19998.349,"end":19998.83,"text":"提供第一批的PDA部分"},{"start":20022.873,"end":20035.36,"text":"不過以後大概要PTA很難了啦好那個看起來預算數差距相當大那個陸軍有溝通過嗎不知道有溝通那個馬委員的你再說明一下啦你再說明一下"},{"start":20037.881,"end":20057.516,"text":"那個針對以上的案子先前有都有跟委員做過溝通那當然馬委員他有一些修正的部分那我在這邊做以下幾點報告第一個紅中火箭的部分他還是以中科院他的這個是一個研發和經過測評的單位整個數據我們認為在部校當初在這個媒體採訪他所公佈的數量是他"},{"start":20066.502,"end":20095.064,"text":"這幾單位所打的一個參數那並不是真的達到一定的批量所以我們仍然是認定以中科院所公布的為準這第一個說明那第二個有關於有關於這個紅棕火箭彈重量的問題我在這邊也要做個陳復因為不能單單的就66火箭彈跟紅棕火箭彈的重量來相比那其他包含到古斯塔夫包含到84它的重量可能也都達到在這個5公斤以上"},{"start":20095.784,"end":20114.53,"text":"實際上我們在反裝甲武器的運用已經不再像我們想像的我一個單兵這些武器屬於單兵的列入火箭彈而單兵的反裝甲武器它的武器效能當然是在標槍脫勢以下的另外一個等級當然我們可以預制所謂的"},{"start":20116.29,"end":20141.38,"text":"反裝甲的伏擊區我們可以把我們相關的反裝甲火箭彈的部署才一個在安全的考量下做一個部署的方式我並不會背著這樣子兩枚5.1公斤的火箭在戰場上到處去尋找戰車所以基本上在重量方面也是結合它的口徑結合它必要的性能而是一個等比上面我們在一個作戰需求上面我們認為它還是一個合理的需求"},{"start":20142.22,"end":20159.351,"text":"當然在後續的研發上面如果可以得到需求單位的回饋去做精進那這個當然也是我們樂見的這個第二個事情那剛才有提到的一些84的價格實際上那個都是在大概在很早以前甚至在民國82年的報價以現在的狀況來說也不是這樣的一個價格最後一點就是有關於沒有錯我們在所採購的"},{"start":20168.496,"end":20193.735,"text":"在軍售的彈藥它漲幅高達平均到23%那剛才講到也有的單一的向量是高達到126%那這個部分它也純粹是受到俄烏戰爭剛好對這個發射藥大量需求的影響而產生一個漲價的效應那事實上這個紅中火箭彈剛才我補充一下它經過了實質上的這個君子裝甲的測試它的"},{"start":20195.416,"end":20211.866,"text":"穿透力是達到274mm以上是也符合我們的需求是沒有問題那有關於剛剛馬委員提案有關於這個軍這個彈藥報價的這個我們完成組決議那供請委員知道那最後我要一點報告就是說"},{"start":20213.267,"end":20228.695,"text":"委員這些指導非常專業我們一定會去檢討落實考量這裏面的預算在114年的編列裏面主要是對美的彈藥戰備急需的項目如果凍結到兩億的話對我們的在彈藥交運和這個帳單的支付上面會直接的衝擊到我們在戰備任務上面的影響建請"},{"start":20241.801,"end":20243.983,"text":"建請以凍結2000萬元提書面報告時的凍結以上報告馬委員"},{"start":20249.558,"end":20271.196,"text":"這個部分編了64億如果凍結2億會造成影響那我們現在都沒有拿到的彈藥對我們有沒有影響我們錢付了我們沒有拿到彈藥對我們有沒有影響這個部分我們要求的是包括我們很多彈藥的生產我剛剛特別提到雖然我沒有講得很清楚不過我們希望大家去查查是有沒有"},{"start":20272.277,"end":20278.158,"text":"當我們的一些要住要生產的時候我們的一些原料有問題透過其他的方式去做裁切然後去運用這個就會造成很大的影響而且甚至會造成危險而且是不是是我們需求的這是一點"},{"start":20292.962,"end":20293.022,"text":"我們討論一下"},{"start":20313.496,"end":20318.68,"text":"沈博洋和林益君召委的部分先各凍結一千"},{"start":20342.617,"end":20344.718,"text":"馬文君委員加2000元主決意馬文君委員的意思寫向美方表達態度這樣好不好如果這樣那我要求把我們已經付出去的然後因為美方一直漲價我們一點辦法都沒有那你還認為說這樣凍結數太高那我們要求"},{"start":20362.043,"end":20362.103,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20377.563,"end":20381.225,"text":"主決議的部分是不是把美方應交付或延遲交付的項目列出然後向美方表達這個態度就是剛才馬委員提的這個部分"},{"start":20399.42,"end":20417.991,"text":"當然我剛才講有的是他們產生的問題有的是客觀因素但那是他的因素我們的需求我們還是要把態度表達出來國會可以演黑臉這是一個那數額的部分我剛才提的就是說在這樣子加起來大概是凍結4千萬那如果各位委員還有意見可以提沒關係不同意林俊偉來"},{"start":20423.854,"end":20423.874,"text":"來,98案"},{"start":20435.486,"end":20462,"text":"第98案為陳冠廷委員針對運輸作業的科目預算提案指導本案已向委員說明建議同意下修凍結金額為100萬元提出書面報告後時的動資進行指導好98、99到100那其實原則上書面報告就是三個重點就是說有沒有必要有沒有重複然後最後一個就是說為什麼會這麼多特別是這個水電費這個怎麼會多的到多到3億多這個是"},{"start":20464.321,"end":20464.401,"text":"主席"},{"start":20481.323,"end":20481.343,"text":"101案"},{"start":20501.263,"end":20517.508,"text":"第101案為徐曉鑫委員針對通信電子與資訊科目預算的提案指導委員關心在資訊安全防護的計畫在此提出說明我們在資訊安全防護是一道國防部的資安林信任的指導"},{"start":20520.03,"end":20541.271,"text":"導入了資訊安全管理以及取得ISO的國際認證也建置了檔案的傳輸及加密和資料交換的系統限制使用者的權限也可以回溯任何存取的路徑以全面提升資訊安全的能量本軍從持恆的要求各級不得使用大陸品牌的設備"},{"start":20543.933,"end":20569.23,"text":"並持續辦理資安講習及人員訓練以避免產生資安下系本案已向委員提供資料考量案內預算為執行各項資通電、演訓及資安防護工作必要經費建請同意免予刪減下修凍結預算100萬元提出書面報告,敬請委員指導提案委員"},{"start":20570.796,"end":20596.203,"text":"這個部分就是我國國軍近年有多起的個資外洩包含情報人員、高階將領等個資外洩的情況所以說我覺得在這個新聞上面也都看到了大家都覺得非常不可思議雖然國防部的說法是說沒有流出真的會對我們的情報人員或什麼等等的一些個資但是我覺得這整體的一些我們在資訊上面的做法並不是很好"},{"start":20596.443,"end":20620.433,"text":"第2個就是軍方已經在包含這個會期裡面就已經有很多次的被揭露說有大陸制貼牌MIT的問題這點是完全無法接受的而且是不只一個委員找到像我當時是在這個行車記錄器的部分然後好像是黃國昌委員吧他提到的是其他的部分也都是就是說我們在採購的時候"},{"start":20621.573,"end":20621.613,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":20639.525,"end":20639.685,"text":"是否同意?"},{"start":20662.54,"end":20681.196,"text":"你們這個有溝通過嗎沒有這個是提出面不過這個資安當然是很重要不過每個樣帶還是要把釐清說明清楚貼牌我們禁用中國製的零組件除非正面表現可以的有些通用件什麼的但是像上一次那個人事人員把"},{"start":20682.017,"end":20682.818,"text":"徐巧欣委員．部分．"},{"start":20703.257,"end":20706.121,"text":"剩下的剩下的剩下的剩下的剩下的剩下"},{"start":20718.26,"end":20735.468,"text":"對阿,我不覺得很過分阿原本是事業是提醒你們以後要多注意阿是,請也是接受委員的指導你接受就接受了嘛,好來"},{"start":20736.288,"end":20741.873,"text":"101案檢列200萬科目自行調整凍結200萬書面報告後使得凍值接下來處理102案到115案病案904我們不是移到第二輪嗎移到第二輪沒辦法有結論102案到115案來請病案說明"},{"start":20763.223,"end":20782.437,"text":"第102到115案為徐曉新等4位委員針對軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修的科目預算提出指導那這個案子比較多做個報告第102案徐曉新委員關心行財零附件等軍購的籌補"},{"start":20784.438,"end":20789.2,"text":"本軍在近三年檢討在航才臨附近的籌補．有657項均於兩年內交運另外在交運期間的我們美季均含請美團來透過吹詢．定期的華美臨附近採購的專案管理會議來掌握交貨進度以加速美方的交運期程確保"},{"start":20808.187,"end":20813.893,"text":"103 馬文君委員關心（次增飛彈可靠度儲存計劃預算增加部分104 馬文君委員關心（但要委託建設效能105 陳冠廷委員關心（軍備局能量不足延遲供貨問題106"},{"start":20831.05,"end":20843.707,"text":"以及112-115案為徐曉新委員及林毅君委員共同關心防護頭盔及看浪板的防護力等目前依照期程辦理委制協議書的簽訂有關委員提及的檢測報告的部分"},{"start":20848.152,"end":20863.001,"text":"軍備局克正辦理TUF認證（我們在後續的驗收（將會依照相關的認證標準嚴格把關（確保官兵在戰場上防護力的安全第107案為徐曉新委員關心送美回修的實質效益本部統計109到113年可修建送美回修件有1900餘件（完修率達到99.5"},{"start":20875.568,"end":20894.813,"text":"送修期間也都備有庫存的周轉量（可以維持本軍的主戰裝備的妥善（送美回修後（經本軍檢驗未合格的品項（軍醫規定向美方提起索賠（持續透過美團及專管（管制相關的送修項目"},{"start":20896.473,"end":20912.54,"text":"第108案及111案為馬文君委員關心錄製零件及單價高於市場行情為了強化防範錄製品管理作為依照國防部禁用大陸地區產品認定以及履歷驗收的諸位指導"},{"start":20913.34,"end":20939.331,"text":"除了在契約來定定統一的標準之外要求單位要不定期的訪商履約督導並採取不同程度的驗收如查獲交付錄製的品項則依規定辦理計法及停權那另為確保案件內的裝備的維護水準均限定要以原廠料件來辦理維修而針對零件的這個單價訂定也都考量這個廠商"},{"start":20941.232,"end":20950.558,"text":"在政府採購網公告的報價之外（也參考行政院主計總署公布的物價統計月報（來辦理已服時需（有關於這個108案（要特別做個報告（是裡面相關戰甲車等主戰裝備（還有三軍通用的戰鬥車輛（這個是我們在因應現在（尤其因應現在兩岸情勢"},{"start":20966.027,"end":20966.687,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":20988.762,"end":21010.378,"text":"第114案是馬雲軍委員關心保修訓練維修器的合約變革主要是有兩型機考量這個保修訓練器它已經賣入中售期而且班隊的訓練使用頻繁為了維護維修的品質所以在114年以5年合約的方式來訂定有關於相關的採購辦法我們針對"},{"start":21013.041,"end":21016.584,"text":"委員專業的指導我們已經針對本案先前的辦理停標後續我們已經去函美軍詢問相關的有關於授權的問題後面會視美軍的回覆採取最合宜的採購方案"},{"start":21034.163,"end":21048.446,"text":"處理的建議以上14案均與向委員說明考量案內的預算為籌貨個人武器裝備防護用具以及零附件構置的必要經費第102、105到108以及112到115案建請同意併案凍結"},{"start":21058.328,"end":21076.542,"text":"5百萬,那這邊部分馬文君委員的提案是5千萬那這個部分還要請委員指導那並由我們提出書面報告時的動資第二個在103案的部分建請同意下修凍結金額為5百萬提出書面報告時的動資"},{"start":21077.603,"end":21084.067,"text":"第104案建請同意下修凍結金額為400萬元提出書面報告後時的凍資第109案這個馬雲軍委員我們溝通過但是馬雲軍委員他的提案是要3減3000萬凍結1000萬這個部分在陸軍的懇求是建議3減4項已經沒有"},{"start":21105.099,"end":21115.588,"text":"消息商員的模擬器建議能夠3-315萬以維護我們其他在模擬器方面的運作坑不自行調整免於凍結在第110案建請同意下修金額為500萬元坑不自行調整免於凍結第111案建請同意免於凍結以上敬請委員指導"},{"start":21133.056,"end":21134.137,"text":"114年新型的抗蛋白卻沒有可供檢驗的標準"},{"start":21155.407,"end":21159.85,"text":"甚至還是新一年度的徵購的頭盔好像也連凹陷的測試都沒有依循美軍的規格做測試所以私下做的測試真的是合格嗎還有目前國軍抗彈板的和抗彈頭盔到底是什麼標準在測試因為這個是有關我們的國軍弟兄生命的安全所以我這幾個案子每一個案子就改動500萬"},{"start":21183.682,"end":21184.002,"text":"抗彈板（抗彈頭盔"},{"start":21200.302,"end":21213.056,"text":"康乃堡的部分現在我們就按照去年的一個委員的我們都按照美軍的ISAPI的現在我們在大湖濱我們已經提出了一個TAF的一個申請我上上禮拜我也親自拜會ISAPI就是軍規測試對軍規測試然後也上上禮拜我親自拜會的"},{"start":21217.461,"end":21217.761,"text":"大埔埔埔埔埔埔埔埔埔"},{"start":21235.603,"end":21235.663,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":21266.084,"end":21266.384,"text":"徐曉新委員"},{"start":21280.76,"end":21295.968,"text":"我們也是因為為了要保障這個國軍的安全那你們現在有這個TAF軍規測試但是呢我希望到時候書面報告的時候要針對這個表面圖層跟磁性快扣也要有明確的說明"},{"start":21296.468,"end":21303.293,"text":"而且你們回覆給我們的這個內容裡面有講說這個關於各裝材料材料生產線軍品零件布料等都是軍備局定定由軍備局統一規格生產製造再播交給這個各軍種使用本軍然後帶軍備局調查結果辦理後續委製作業所以這個調查結果到底怎麼樣了"},{"start":21320.086,"end":21346.192,"text":"就是說如果說先前我們講的這些東西也要去調查那調查結果也還沒有出來那我想凍結是必要的那凍結數額是多少其實我沒有意見但是我覺得既然你調查結果都還沒有出來至少我得到的這個說明回復是這樣然後呢我們也有很多的其他疑問包含這個剛毅君朝委剛講到的然後還有另外就是綁標的問題因為每一次講到抗彈板的時候都會有綁標的疑慮那這個"},{"start":21349.113,"end":21362.641,"text":"綁標的疑慮要怎麼樣化解然後你們的整個採購SOP要怎麼樣去做才會讓未來不要再每一次講到抗難版的時候都要再有人提出來一次我覺得這一點你們要好好去檢討那至於凍結數的部分大家討論好我沒有特別的意見"},{"start":21364.802,"end":21378.462,"text":"你剛才徐曉駿委員提那幾項是我諮詢的時候提的那些東西那你有調查的結果是不是跟大家說明一下就是表面塗料我坦白講你們那一個是沒有進到會議裡面"},{"start":21379.924,"end":21404.22,"text":"但是有人這樣處理會害了國軍我一直跟你們提醒這件事情後來我們把點破之後你們當然標準就不會去修完了不會那麼荒謬的去用磁性扣帶的那個植北針會影響那個是不是軍備局再要說明一下第一個我們在表面我們就是巨鳥第一個我們就是跟局員說明所有的噴土都是規定巨鳥跟美軍是同一個的"},{"start":21404.38,"end":21428.65,"text":"那之前我們王朝偉也有資訊是用D類子的我們去查的結果我們現在這個標案都還在審視當中也還沒有送出任何一頂去噴我們大批量交軍的一個圖層的部分那徐委員這樣指導我們會更加注意絕對是巨鳥我們都是一定會採取最有利標的部分第二個是第二個是在講到我們這個有後續有一些榜標的部分我們現在都是採先採資格標但打過都是採但打過之後的陶瓷盤"},{"start":21434.372,"end":21436.413,"text":"．19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19"},{"start":21457.807,"end":21460.97,"text":"現在用中國製品若不是我們正面表現合格的那個法我們修過了是修過了我們要關3年以前他敢跟你賭就是我拼賺錢抓到的話就是政府採購法處理現在是有圖形的我們要讓廠商知道"},{"start":21483.969,"end":21484.67,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":21507.603,"end":21507.743,"text":"馬衛原有意見"},{"start":21530.373,"end":21543.404,"text":"入軍有更動我們如果討論的動山數那我要求我自己的提案我們原來談哪一案我們都各自動各自山如果有問題我們就送第二輪那第一個就是103"},{"start":21548.448,"end":21552.952,"text":"103案因為像這個主要是針對次增飛彈儲存可靠度計劃這個部分因為我們現在採購的次增飛彈數量也不少"},{"start":21561.109,"end":21563.831,"text":"他這個計劃4年要花3億2600萬可是這個這是從114到118年我們在114之前從103到113相同的計劃我們10年只花2億8600萬等於說一年是就次增的那個飛彈儲存"},{"start":21583.187,"end":21586.109,"text":"主要一年大概是2800萬可是從明年開始我們一年變成7500萬它的漲幅高達三倍多它的時間越短可是它的經費越高另外我們現在以後採購次增的數量越來越多那以後這個金額會非常驚人我們不知道為什麼要增加那麼多再加上次增飛彈其實它是一個"},{"start":21614.427,"end":21637.052,"text":"密封保證彈如果美國沒有同意的時候我們根本不能打萬一真的打起來的時候如果不發彈要怎麼辦我們都不曉得所以我們只有越來越高每年越來越高高達三倍多的這樣的經費去把它儲存可是我們大概都沒有一個自主性這個部分我們同意其實是把它"},{"start":21637.652,"end":21639.573,"text":"（中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（不含國家安全局部分．三天一次會議"},{"start":21657.381,"end":21678.295,"text":"主案講,其實我們病案也是有病案的道理啦如果可以兩個併在一起的話,比較有效率主案講,那主案講如果沒有問題的當然就過了嘛,好阿如果有問題的提出來討論,這樣我們可能會比較有效率,比較聚焦一點因為他併的,我們都已經聽不出來說我們的那個凍結的理由在哪裡了對,凍結理由大概有表述啦"},{"start":21679.813,"end":21680.814,"text":"中科院檢修脫勢非但效能以前是美國版現在是中科院版"},{"start":21702.694,"end":21723.739,"text":"我們現在發射架是新的可是彈是舊的因為新的是用電子導控舊的是用線控那我們現在其實還有很多的舊彈因為以前捨不得用捨不得打那現在還有很多到底要怎麼辦不曉得那另外還有就是像我們這一次在天馬操演的時候有多美的這個托斯飛彈其實都墜海也造成霧濕所以"},{"start":21730.601,"end":21752.734,"text":"當然對外的說明原因第一個就是操作的熟練度第二個是天候環境第三個是非氮電子元件老化那你老化我們不會修嗎這是一個因為我們數量非常大第二個是天候環境你天候環境如果有影響當天我們看不出來是有什麼太大的影響可是我們其中一個理由是天候環境第一個是操作熟練度"},{"start":21753.194,"end":21755.336,"text":"你今天如果沒有讓我們所有的我們所有的軍人因為他都他要打的話你所謂的熟練度是什麼所以他掉那麼多是因為他的熟練度的問題"},{"start":21765.731,"end":21780.981,"text":"包括他是不是因為他的電子導引跟現控這兩個不一樣造成他墜海其實有很多因素可能都可以去釐清的那雖然不是中科院的問題可是如果是這麼講的話我們為什麼要花7200萬讓你去檢修你花7200萬去檢修結果你說出來的理由都是你的熟悉度啦你的天候環境啦還有原件老化那你的老化"},{"start":21794.269,"end":21794.509,"text":"另外在108的部分"},{"start":21815.316,"end":21816.556,"text":"這個是凍結五千萬這個的原因是什麼因為他這個編列高達五十億我們所有我們不是要去主要要去我們沒有刪減照理說應該要刪減我記得之前在之前的去年或者上個會期的時候我們都有提到我們的車輛的維修的維保的一個費用"},{"start":21840.623,"end":21845.546,"text":"我們過去以為我們就像我們自己的車子如果是壞掉了我們就會送回修車廠嘛你如果比較好也許你會送原廠可是如果時間比較久了有些你甚至比較就是比較有信用的修車廠他都可以修有些零件很簡單可是我們現在編列的預算非常不合理之前被我們講出來是因為他用造假的"},{"start":21865.64,"end":21866.06,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":21892.193,"end":21892.313,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":21909.963,"end":21932.11,"text":"他還是賺了一億七千萬當然還有工時啦這個我們沒有辦法說他賺那麼多那個是比較離譜可是顯然非常的高這個部分我們要求要凍結五千萬是有原因而且我們已經講過很多次這個也非常不合理你是用合約價你不是我們以前以為是用那個那個你是勞務採購嘛可是我們認為是開口合約結果不是所以"},{"start":21937.371,"end":21940.575,"text":"109109的部分是因為模擬器我們可以看到他原來15項"},{"start":21961.755,"end":21964.716,"text":"本來要修15項,其他的11項是4億2千多萬,現在他扣掉4項"},{"start":21983.352,"end":21986.955,"text":"（編程還是維持原金額4億2千多萬（他說那四項減掉可以減300多萬（我唸給大家聽這四項是什麼復仇者飛彈系統訓練模擬器（第二個雙連裝次針訓練模擬器（還有第三個是AH這個是"},{"start":22008.632,"end":22016.016,"text":"．19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日"},{"start":22025.721,"end":22038.388,"text":"其他11項到底是要維修什麼、維保什麼（還要花到4億多這是我們不能接受的主要的問題這些模擬器如果你認為它只值300多萬你再來看我們現在後面的110案"},{"start":22043.131,"end":22044.793,"text":"113我們也是保修模擬器這不是飛行模擬器保修模擬器只是讓你看那個硬體比如說你可能有什麼樣的小零件小附件或者你的那個"},{"start":22058.194,"end":22058.354,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":22077.739,"end":22107.739,"text":"。（"},{"start":22107.999,"end":22108.419,"text":"那四個是很舊的東西"},{"start":22128.365,"end":22143.836,"text":"那11項要不要唸給大家聽?那11項是什麼?他每年的預算他114年這15項的維修那扣除掉這4項消失性傷源他每年的預算是偽中科用維修是1億4千萬並不是50億"},{"start":22147.397,"end":22171.004,"text":"他預算的額度是1億多一年是1億4千萬總共要維修15項那這4項因為是消息營商員所以要維修11項那委員的指導是沒有錯這4項既然不維修了就應該把他的項目扣掉這個預算數是1億4嗎不是你總共那個是4億多他是分年他每年才1億4"},{"start":22174.026,"end":22185.715,"text":"對,如果1億4,瑪瑋你再考慮一下因為你這個3棟的數額,佔的比例很高他一次就是一個合約,就是4億多他不是一年一年的標他4億多合約是涵蓋幾年"},{"start":22187.657,"end":22197.507,"text":"三年（他的四億多是三年（所以一年一億多嘛（對一年一億四（所以你現在處理的是一億四的（我把它減三千而已（他四億多減三千啊（他現在科目是寫一億四（你現在刪掉的會變成一億四的三千（不是四億多的三千（所以你們覺得是（如果這樣子好馬委員"},{"start":22206.645,"end":22221.897,"text":"因為我們兩個都在這邊待了比較久如果你是4億多想要3減3000我們是不是1億4先減1000然後明年來的時候再把它減掉1000就符合你的要求否則你現在3000等於是把1億4的佔比會太高這也當慘兇"},{"start":22223.84,"end":22238.246,"text":"所以他這個沒有那其實就把他講清楚就針對這個案子其實他就是全案要減3000嘛對不對分年嘛對那因為我現在全案啦我現在就是講全案因為你跟他訂合約是全案只是你的你是一年一年給對"},{"start":22239.907,"end":22246.17,"text":"一年一四分年編列這個我們待會預算書是委員建議啦我們待會再來討論不過這個是原則上啦109的目標就是全合約減3000那分年減1000但看怎麼把它序名清楚馬偉你的意思是這樣子嗎對好那再來你的110呢110這個是全合約減8000萬然後凍結為5000萬"},{"start":22269.486,"end":22280.895,"text":"這個部分我稍微說明一下它是針對我們黑鷹直升機的保修就只有一架保修模擬器就是那個也是維修的模擬機那個剛開始過保固的時候是一年只有編450多萬第二年編了550萬到了第三年以後"},{"start":22296.485,"end":22305.54,"text":"突然暴增變成一千多萬到了第二個合約那是三年合約現在變成一年要三千多萬"},{"start":22307.031,"end":22317.64,"text":"就是它的金額暴增太多因為它可以修的東西很少我現在說的不是飛行模擬機而是保修模擬機這個部分它可以從這樣的金額跳到這麼高它也是合約價如果要因為我看過它相關檢修的一個項目比如說我大概都修一萬塊以下最多的是那個什麼面板七萬塊可是你卻編了兩千多萬"},{"start":22334.975,"end":22347.202,"text":"那其他的沒有修的就是廠商賺了所以你是不是適合編那麼高我覺得這是非常大的疑慮所以這個應該要解好那個陸軍有沒有什麼說明黑鷹這個他那個是模擬維修的東西不是模擬飛行來你們那個黑鷹的這一個模擬維修的部分剛才馬委員講的如果有可以說明澄清的部分也要一併提出來"},{"start":22369.719,"end":22390.133,"text":"謝謝馬委員的指導那針對110的部分它這個AH-611整個編列是兩億錢是黑鷹還是阿帕契阿帕契所以不是黑鷹阿帕契還有黑鷹的兩個我剛剛講的是黑鷹啦他們現在在明年因為過保固他要把阿帕契的阿克是"},{"start":22391.314,"end":22392.815,"text":"這兩型機對於整個飛機的維修上的訓練是非常重要的"},{"start":22418.278,"end":22432.611,"text":"每一天的訊都要靠這個來事先模擬再結合實體來實作有關於剛剛委員所提的部分有關合約的部分我們也做了一個重新的檢討"},{"start":22434.181,"end":22463.381,"text":"也採取了廣邀商員重新再研擬有關於後續的採購策略我們會重新再來擬定然後會以能夠有效的建置在國內的能量參謀長我請你說明是就委員提出委員關心嘛那如果委員有誤解你可以把誤解如果委員講的都對那你就告訴我該用多少你剛才講了半天你完全沒有講到內容好不好"},{"start":22464.121,"end":22491.493,"text":"參謀長"},{"start":22494.324,"end":22510.142,"text":"他剛才詢問你的我在那邊聽都聽了他告訴你你的黑鷹直升機第一年過合約期第一年才400你為什麼這時候變成3000你要講個道理出來也許委員數字講錯了也沒有關係啊你完全沒有說明你就直接丟個500出來"},{"start":22511.647,"end":22512.288,"text":"你能不能說明呢?"},{"start":22531.99,"end":22551.196,"text":"跟委員報告他這個合約是主要是因為他整個企算是改成5年原本是3年變成5年所以他從原本的這個每年的預算的編列才會去增加因為第一個年份尾上的年份增加所以"},{"start":22551.704,"end":22553.766,"text":"我剛剛講的是單價就每年我沒有講我沒有講你幾年你要幾年你才10就10年啊那沒問題啊可是我現在是說單價有沒有暴增你是單價暴增啊那個後勤部你單價有沒有暴增他原來報4000多欸"},{"start":22568.39,"end":22582.221,"text":"之前我所了解航空部那時候匡列是兩千多萬然後後來新增編列之後他又編到了三千多萬所以原來不是四百嗎對原來不是四百我知道再下去之後我們會再跟"},{"start":22588.126,"end":22604.24,"text":"委員我這邊說明一下我們當初預算會增加原因是因為他本來一開始單一型機所以小H641那時候單價大概幾百多萬而已但是後來我們110年我們的"},{"start":22606.822,"end":22607.562,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":22626.731,"end":22637.239,"text":"現在110到113年為平坡的那個數字所以後來我們就把兩型機包起來讓平坡去做的原因是因為他的預算會比那個軍購案還來得便宜"},{"start":22639.605,"end":22639.625,"text":"（處理（"},{"start":22669.985,"end":22681.135,"text":"模擬機不要再拿來比較啦我是給你一個方向我就說你剛開始過保固期的時候他第一年就是編400多萬啦中科院執行的嘛第二年就是500多萬如果你覺得說你現在有兩型機那你把它拆開就是黑鷹到底是要多少錢因為你這樣比較會更清楚因為你黑鷹從400多500多到1000多到2000多到明年變成4000多"},{"start":22697.495,"end":22697.635,"text":"發言委員（"},{"start":22720.704,"end":22736.754,"text":"剪裂8天、凍結5天是指全合約嗎?我現在數額還不確定,但我們把它變成每一年度注明全合約處理多少比較符合預算,因為它不是一次編全合約的錢"},{"start":22738.095,"end":22758.929,"text":"否則我們有可能讓他第一期就完全無法執行也不是我們的目的啦齁這個我們待會看結果怎麼樣那個我覺得就是這整個就是毛委員剛剛提的這個案子啊整個過程可以說非常不清楚是不是在書面報告的時候可以再就是我怕書面報告也寫不清楚你說是可不可以就是分分開列然後等等的什麼什麼400、500萬我坦白講那個後勤部參謀長你要來說明齁功課要做啦"},{"start":22765.646,"end":22789.072,"text":"你應該比委員了解狀況可是你説明的其實我坦白說你的答案沒有對到題目那剛才是馬委員就他的預算書的意見馬委員我們走快一點你把你的預算書講完參詳一下不見得是照這樣子我們大家再討論看看那有一兩個案子也許就跟徐曉新委員併在一起掛徐曉新委員的主題案但是目的是"},{"start":22790.432,"end":22791.213,"text":"陳冠廷委員的主案要提出意見"},{"start":22820.816,"end":22828.034,"text":"我們102案到110萬我希望我這個案子這一批不要移到第二輪因為這個移到第二輪一樣是很混亂的我們一個來看"},{"start":22831.394,"end":22832.895,"text":"徐曉清委員的部分102"},{"start":22855.984,"end":22877.816,"text":"那我開始從102講好嗎那102的部分呢我希望可以凍結的數量是300萬元106案呢希望300嘛我把它寫一下對好300106案呢就抗彈板的部分我希望凍結1000萬元因為他的這個元獵數比較高106對因為他的元獵數是高的1000啦1000萬元OK再來然後107的話呢因為他的元獵數本來就少所以凍結100萬元100好再來這樣很好"},{"start":22885.64,"end":22885.72,"text":"林益鈞委員"},{"start":22906.499,"end":22929.864,"text":"首先跟各位同事討論因為這個案子有點像萬花筒這種案子我都不建議移到第二輪因為移到第二輪我們還會經歷現在一樣的痛苦那現在各個委員都有提出他們的建議而渡本席休息十分鐘陸軍跟後勤部去跟個別委員溝通好回來場面上我們來確認數據我們把這一批先解決好休息十分鐘"},{"start":22932.647,"end":22942.455,"text":"我已經幫你們都想好了108案108案我沒有翻案啊108案108案那個車輛被淋不見的那個那個原本"},{"start":22948.4,"end":22966.625,"text":"是他的預算是8億多不是50億108案他是8億9千萬然後委員的提案是凍結1億那我們去辦公室說明的時候沒有不好我們去辦公室說明的時候那個時候是"},{"start":22967.465,"end":22977.508,"text":"欸!Debbie!Debbie!大衛!108案我們去委員辦公室說明那時候...271...271的原型件...對...26...26的那個後期件...還有...271的原型件...對不對...還有...後期件...後期件...後期我們...對...對..."},{"start":22989.811,"end":22995.274,"text":"如果待會時間上還可以我就留下來,因為我還到州裡面工作"},{"start":23071.729,"end":23077.417,"text":"其他軍種如果有第二輪的現在也可以先溝通我也希望第二輪就已經達成共識可以比較快一點"},{"start":23545.066,"end":23556.419,"text":"我們恢復開會我現在把102案到115案做宣示大家聽一下財事的情形如果有財事錯誤請委員糾正來102案"},{"start":23561.246,"end":23565.248,"text":"徐曉新委員提案凍結300萬書面報告後使得凍支103案凍結500萬書面報告後使得凍支104案凍結400萬書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":23582.654,"end":23583.415,"text":"105案陳冠廷委員的案子"},{"start":23609.478,"end":23614.079,"text":"陳冠廷委員的案跟馬文君委員的104案並案處理凍結400萬馬文君參議員用陳冠廷委員當主題案書面報告經同意後指的凍支"},{"start":23624.684,"end":23629.007,"text":"106案106案凍結一千萬這個要經同意凍結一千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支107案凍結一百萬書面報告後使得凍支108案我看一下不要講錯"},{"start":23647.459,"end":23665.637,"text":"凍結五千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支109案簡列三千萬科目自行調整凍結不好意思他科目不管怎麼調整我是針對那個朋友來來我把它想清楚我想起來了來"},{"start":23668.107,"end":23683.732,"text":"109案是這一個全案要減列3000萬但按年度減列1000萬所以他是綁在這個科目裡面我就不讓你調整了然後凍結1000萬"},{"start":23687.113,"end":23711.562,"text":"凍結一千萬凍結一千萬然後書面報告經同意後（使得凍支110案同樣道理他是全案檢列八千萬分別年度該檢列多少就按年度來均分檢列全案凍結五千萬"},{"start":23713.421,"end":23719.189,"text":"書面報告經同意後（使得動之111案照列112案"},{"start":23722.298,"end":23722.978,"text":"凍結500萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支113案凍結500萬凍結500萬凍結500萬凍結500萬凍結500萬凍結500萬凍結500萬"},{"start":23745.814,"end":23749.977,"text":"好102案到115案這樣子好接下來處理116案到120案請說明116到112案為陳冠廷等兩位委員針對後勤補給的科目預算案提出指導"},{"start":23775.342,"end":23804.222,"text":"在116案為陳萬庭委員關心火石人力委外的進度117案為馬雲君委員關心野營裝備採購的需求118案為馬雲君委員關心義務役精力品的使用需求119案為馬雲君委員關心火石人力委外增加及編列的基準120案為馬雲君委員關心沐浴機的採購等需求以上五案以向"},{"start":23805.443,"end":23810.729,"text":"委員說明那第116、118案建請同意併案凍結一千萬元提出書面報告後使得凍支117案建請同意改列為主決議"},{"start":23822.661,"end":23829.569,"text":"119案117案建請同意改列為主決議119案建請同意免於凍結120案建請同意下修"},{"start":23837.438,"end":23864.388,"text":"三減金額為五百萬元科目自行調整進行指導減五百那個委員有沒有意見沒有意見我就採視下去啦今天我們原則上我是希望照常時間開會啦但我們是不是盡量做到把空軍處理完那個王參謀長盡量我沒有說保證盡量做到處理好按照進度看有沒有辦法啦因為我後面還有部分部的好來"},{"start":23867.597,"end":23882.627,"text":"首先116、118案並案凍結一千萬元以馬文君委員的提案為主提案那書面報告金同佑使得凍支117案改組決議119案照列120案呢這個簡列500萬科目自行調整沒有意見的話我們就這樣處理好接下來處理121到125萬"},{"start":23894.665,"end":23901.15,"text":"第121到125案為徐曉鑫等4位委員（針對仁溪市短程防空飛彈預算提案指導第121、124、125案為徐曉鑫、馬文君及陳永康委員關心（建案徵購及交貨的進度（原規劃在106年到114年下沒採購（"},{"start":23921.964,"end":23928.49,"text":"發射器178套（飛彈500枚（執行進度正常（因為敵情威脅（目前由陸軍來統籌徵購（發射器585套（以及飛彈2121枚（執行期程延長到120年（以依建案程序（完成建案文件的修訂（目前課證辦理修正（發駕書需求信函（"},{"start":23947.639,"end":23974.074,"text":"第122案為薛曉欣委員關心徵購案的執行方式有關均購案在美方同意公售前為機密預算經同意後編列於公開預算另外針對美方以公售的案項如果因為作戰時需需要再次辦理徵購我們依照這個預算編列的規範均編列在公開預算送大院審議以服務國防施政公開透明的原則"},{"start":23975.094,"end":23993.239,"text":"第123案為黃人委員關心非但單價以上五案已向委員說明或提供完整資料考量案內的預算為辦理裝備產制以及首批備份料件的籌購等的必要經費建請同意並按凍結"},{"start":23998.171,"end":24000.114,"text":"兩議員提出書面報告你不應該凍結兩議是因為馬委員裡面124案是凍結兩議書面報告黃人委員先舉手"},{"start":24012.249,"end":24028.459,"text":"因為針對這個123案就是雷神過去裏面有出了問題就是福報的問題所以本案在價格上在112年10月每方提供的初步的報告本席質疑價格的部分認為單價比之前採購還高而且"},{"start":24033.642,"end":24054.18,"text":"本案真是非但剛好又是雷神公司的產品那雷神公司不久前才報出了這個福報的價格的弊案這個初報價格是否合理要請國防部查清楚再做一個說明我凍結五百萬好待會我會把兩億做一個分配來請馬文君委員"},{"start":24056.22,"end":24059.104,"text":"這個部分因為我們原案從108到114年是由海軍統建的這個數量就剛剛村長報告的500多枚可是他133億多後面突然由陸軍統建"},{"start":24073.943,"end":24074.163,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":24095.177,"end":24099.398,"text":"這中間我們要付470億如果按照陸軍的期程他付470億可是他可能到120年才會給我們彈那在這之前我們已經付了高達九成以上的金額那對於說像這樣子的一個不管飛彈、發射系統或體物、識別器我們都還沒有拿到這個是一個問題我們不曉得那另外第二個就是陸軍"},{"start":24124.443,"end":24125.824,"text":"我來處理預算數需要有沒有要發表意見"},{"start":24146.59,"end":24170.75,"text":"是那個我得到你們的這個回覆第一個剛剛馬委員已經說了這個你們要現在可能要先回答一下就是發價書是不是還沒有交給美方這件事情那因為這個牽涉到我們的預算就是要怎麼審查因為我們沒有辦法確認回報回來大概價格是多少第二個說呢你們回覆我們的是講說原先進度正常那為什麼同時我們在這個"},{"start":24174.112,"end":24188.066,"text":"您們這次的回覆書面報告裡面寫到原案延長至120年原先是106到114那原案延長到120年的理由是什麼如果可以的話希望說明一下兩點說明首先"},{"start":24191.449,"end":24211.614,"text":"報告這個發價書的修訂信函預計在114年的第一季會遞交美方那第二個嚴長到明年的第一季第一季就三月前明年三月前那第二個在延長到120年最主要是這個案子最先是500枚的時候是海軍統購然後海軍統建那延長並不是第一梯延宕"},{"start":24218.556,"end":24218.796,"text":"預算書的部分"},{"start":24240.452,"end":24244.216,"text":"121及122案徐曉欣委員動結1000萬以122案為主提案書面報告經同意後使得動之"},{"start":24260.832,"end":24281.098,"text":"123案黃仁委員提案凍結一千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支陳永康委員凍結五千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支馬文君委員凍結一億三千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支沒有問題的話我們121到125將通過接下來處理126案到131案"},{"start":24289.474,"end":24314.174,"text":"第126到131案為林毅君等6位委員針對營區智慧型警監的系統建置案預算提出指導林毅君、王定宇、黃仁、羅美玲、馬文君及陳永康等6位委員關心本案的執行進度以及故障率的問題以上6案已經向委員說明建請同意併案凍結"},{"start":24316.656,"end":24345.543,"text":"原編列數的十分之一那提出書面報告進行委員指導你原編列數的案是多少是哪一個案是12億嗎對12億那是一億兩千九百你要凍結一億兩千萬好對你這樣答應你要看清楚計劃沒有你這樣答應下去會整個案子不能凍"},{"start":24350.781,"end":24371.23,"text":"這邊幫陸軍報告一下因為這個案子是由中科院是被委制的單位那這整個案子其實我們一直很努力在趕進度那我也很希望有這個報告的機會所以這份書面報告會由中科院來寫讓各位委員知道我們的努力還有對他的那個他的就是系統功能的質疑那我們看要動多少"},{"start":24372.757,"end":24396.415,"text":"是多少的十分之一我待會再來做分配啦齁那個羅美你跟林軒等一下我先確認一下現在你的十分之一的母體是什麼12這個最少的啊凍結基模最高的十分之一沒有沒有你應該是拿你應該拿馬文君委員的當標的啦當標的啦"},{"start":24402.073,"end":24403.355,"text":"羅美玲委員是林益君委員"},{"start":24421.946,"end":24444.762,"text":"好有關這個智慧型警監系統很多委員都在關心這個執行的進度當然陸軍司令部有向本席來說明是交書面說明說現在只剩下海軍四足海的失作當中可是本席所關心的系統故障力偏高的這部分呢到現在我還沒有看到你們的書面說明我想這個部分的話我還是堅持要動那動多少最後主席來做才是OK好"},{"start":24450.752,"end":24451.432,"text":"中科院提醒一下"},{"start":24474.722,"end":24474.982,"text":"主席"},{"start":24497.183,"end":24524.745,"text":"近水30秒還有那個強風因為它在戶外環境這個東西其實我會建議你們要模擬適度的質量要相當品質跟價格是相當的另外就是說因為你們這一次暴增的那個故障數我很擔心我們有一些這些系統是因為我們大概在蔡英文總統任內台灣沒有經過大型的風災所以很多裝備在做的時候都忘了台灣會有大風大雨"},{"start":24525.425,"end":24526.286,"text":"林毅君委員請"},{"start":24537.165,"end":24557.255,"text":"其實現在兩岸的局勢變化啦尤其是營區的警監偵的智慧化是非常重要的所以陸軍要怎麼樣加強對中科院的這個督導還有陸軍應該要怎麼樣就是中科院是不是定期提交報告報告這些細部的工作進度因為剛才中科院也講說他會提交報告了然後我當然也是希望說能夠趕緊的完成工項如期啟用所以我本來是凍結10%我現在改成凍結1億"},{"start":24566.656,"end":24592.707,"text":"林毅君委員我們是不是來並案處理來處理一下我們整個目標是可以並案整個目標凍結一億我們凍結一億那請書面報告的內容涵蓋跟我們詢問的部分及精進其實我們常看到你們書面報告其實因為精進作業衍生出來的新增成本寫進來沒有關係就誠實面對我要好的東西會產生新的成本"},{"start":24594.128,"end":24622.174,"text":"該用軍規的該用好的東西國軍尤其陸軍特別喜歡勤儉治軍我是覺得有些東西你如果因為品質而成家成本你們要寫在報告報告裡面不要只報喜不報憂那我們現在總數1億的狀況下我將來分配陳永康委員的131案凍結500萬書面報告我看書面報告經同意我會放在馬文俊委員那邊就一樣的其他都是書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":24623.894,"end":24626.855,"text":"羅美玲委員．動節500萬．書面報告後使得動資．黃仁委員．500萬．動節．書面報告後使得動資．剩餘餘數"},{"start":24644.956,"end":24670.726,"text":"剩8千萬王定宇黃仁現在4個500還有陳永康剩下8千萬馬文君委員跟林益君委員各凍結4千萬加起來就是8千萬以林益君委員的案子來書面報告經同意後使得凍結這樣各位有沒有意見"},{"start":24671.886,"end":24676.032,"text":"131"},{"start":24679.514,"end":24679.534,"text":"來馬委員"},{"start":24708.636,"end":24720.346,"text":"謝謝 這個我可能要說一下因為最近我們看到一個梗圖就是大概是針對他說有一個好消息然後有一個壞消息好消息就是地表最強的戰車已經到了"},{"start":24722.711,"end":24725.373,"text":"壞消息就是馬文君要三光潛艦的預算所以本來沒有看到這個梗圖我們只是對戰車道我們當然也是對我們也是好的不過他當然還有一些問題或缺失在可是我在這裡還是如果大家做這樣的比較我還是要稍微講一下M1A2T for Taiwan的"},{"start":24746.793,"end":24750.734,"text":"所以這個號稱史上最強的是不是真的有這麼好我想在這裡要說一下因為這個也都是一些相關的公開資訊了因為我們買到的大概是翻修件你如果像裡面的設計的模組我們還是類比的現在美軍他都是數位化的就是人家是用按鍵我們是沒有沒有沒有我們是用轉的"},{"start":24776.141,"end":24776.301,"text":"主席"},{"start":24793.541,"end":24795.261,"text":"美國的外銷彈送給烏克蘭的已經都到A4的等級它的貫穿力是達到700可是給我們的彈是560另外還有包括射控已經都是第三代"},{"start":24821.175,"end":24842.849,"text":"我們有一些像壞掉的甚至美方的教官也認為說那沒關係因為回到台灣以後我們再看看如果真的壞掉就線拔掉就有點像我們的車子如果在電腦上面顯示說亮紅燈那你找不到原因在哪裡那就是把線拔掉"},{"start":24843.609,"end":24845.91,"text":"我為什麼會特別這麼講是因為我們有的時候我們也希望我們要怎麼樣精進可是不要有誤導或者甚至要帶風向因為這樣對我們整體的國防並不是並沒有好處所以我特別要提出來就這個部分我們當然主要不是要講這個那最重要我們凍結的原因還是希望說因為它本身"},{"start":24869.892,"end":24870.653,"text":"陸軍說明一下是不是有剛才那些情形"},{"start":24888.19,"end":24891.873,"text":"非常感謝主席給予這樣的機會做一個說明有關於所謂M1A2T4翻修件這必須要做一個說明因為M1A2的這個車體的結構"},{"start":24903.704,"end":24920.2,"text":"在美軍它包含到各個外銷的M1A2的家族都是同樣一個系列的結構這樣的車體結構在美軍的評估是會沿用到2040年所以裡面的色控包含到它的引擎都是全新的"},{"start":24920.92,"end":24943.807,"text":"並不能說以它的車殼搭配裡面的東西那當然它針對不同國家它有不同的客製化那這是第一個說明所以至於說翻修件這是翻修車這個基本上在說法上面我必須要做一個陳腐第二個我們的車子的色控是數位的色控那只是基於我們國人的習慣那與美方"},{"start":24945.808,"end":24948.17,"text":"整個處理速度它的這個都是是一樣都是數位式的這個是沒有問題習慣問題是全數位是的但是你們"},{"start":24966.608,"end":24987.396,"text":"處控跟案件控的差異那是使用習慣的問題那第三個有關於輔助電力系統在車外這個基本上也是我們M1A2提我們的需求第一個我們戰車在停止引擎發動的時候引擎發動它會有很大的聲音那因為我們車輛如果要維持持續關秒的電力如果只靠它的6顆電瓶的話"},{"start":24988.917,"end":24989.138,"text":"國防部副總裁"},{"start":25004.117,"end":25010.864,"text":"他的冷氣有兩個部分他的冷氣有兩個部分第一個是他的核生化系統核生化系統其實他在車內車外會產生一個會讓車內的壓力大於車外那再加上頂門的關閉所以基本上他是在車內就是個核生化的環境那有關於車外輔助動力系統他最主要他比起歐洲國家也考慮到我們台灣的需要"},{"start":25028.2,"end":25030.243,"text":"．19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19"},{"start":25044.343,"end":25044.423,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":25069.113,"end":25089.189,"text":"剛才這個預算數你們有溝通過了凍結5000萬那書面報告經同意後使得凍支這是132案不過我這邊附帶一點給陸軍知道就是說我們舊的M60 M48你們買了舊款新引擎讓它可以凍那個是張元勳參謀長時代來這邊報告的OK"},{"start":25091.891,"end":25091.971,"text":"接下來處理"},{"start":25110.962,"end":25111.422,"text":"現在處理133案到138案來請說明"},{"start":25138.661,"end":25163.052,"text":"第133到138案為林玉君等5位委員針對高效能反裝甲飛彈預算案提出指導那既有林玉君、黃仁、王定宇、陳永康及馬文君等5位委員共同關心部分武器裝備尚未籌貨那以上6案已經向委員說明建請同意併案凍結8000萬元提出說明報告後10日動之進行指導"},{"start":25168.112,"end":25179.117,"text":"8千萬元（如果各位委員沒有意見的話（我們來分配凍結數好不好（我們這樣速度可以加快（來（有意見要提都OK（都可以（那我現在先來處理（133案到138案的話（林益君委員（我們讓你凍結200萬元好不好（"},{"start":25193.864,"end":25212.631,"text":"李玉君委員凍結200萬元以你的134案為主提案書面報告後使得凍資黃仁委員凍結1000萬元書面報告後使得凍資經同意的部分我會放在馬委員那邊王定宇委員凍結200萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍資陳永康委員"},{"start":25219.414,"end":25219.914,"text":"凍結500萬元書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":25241.52,"end":25245.801,"text":"馬文君委員的138案為主提案凍結6000萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍支139案請說明"},{"start":25265.365,"end":25278.474,"text":"第139案為馬雲軍委員對遠程精準火力打擊系統提案指導委員關心部分裝備尚未全部遞交本案依委員指導提案凍結8000萬元並提書面報告時的凍資"},{"start":25283.017,"end":25289.521,"text":"進行指導你們同意凍結8000是馬委員當初有說這個彈交了有沒有還要補充說明的部分來請我補充一下因為這個跟剛剛138都是一樣的就是它高效能反裝甲飛彈也好還有我們現在這個遠程精準火力打擊系統我們海馬斯這個都是只來車還有發射架"},{"start":25308.13,"end":25308.21,"text":"陳穩康委員"},{"start":25331.943,"end":25358.74,"text":"海軍建議M142海馬斯不管拿到的系統我講彈30公里70公里來自於遠程300公里你的targeting data你要跟海軍的機動的魚叉要交連不然你們可能會目獲會選錯目標或是過分涉及一個目標或漏掉目標所以你的JCAP就是共同圖像要趕快展開"},{"start":25359.957,"end":25361.137,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支"},{"start":25386.807,"end":25405.612,"text":"陸軍這個8000萬既然有共識我們就凍結8000萬書面報告金童又使得凍之書面報告的時候你們要報告一下各種彈什麼時候會到如果該列為機密我們就列機密沒有關係因為彈抵達的時間如果認為是機密我們就用機密來做解凍好不好那個139案"},{"start":25410.819,"end":25417.482,"text":"但的抵達如果你們列為機密我尊重我現在先處理預算凍結8000萬139案凍結8000萬書面報告後經同意使得凍支來140到141案有沒有同意照列的趕快小修報告一下"},{"start":25431.548,"end":25448.281,"text":"一百四十到一百四十一案為陳永康等兩位委員針對遙控無人機防禦系統提案指導兩位委員共同關心的是生產進度那以上兩案已經向委員說明建請併案同意凍結九十萬四千元提出書面報告使得凍結進行指導是"},{"start":25453.064,"end":25477.338,"text":"並按我們以陳友康委員的提案為主提案那個是140案並按凍結90萬書面報告後使得凍支142案到144案請說明142到144案為李毅君等三位委員針對搬用機槍的提案指導李毅君、馬雲君及陳友康委員共同關心生產進度以上三案已經向委員說明建請同意並按"},{"start":25478.559,"end":25481.441,"text":"並依馬雲軍委員提案的凍結緣編數十分之一（提出順便報告使動之盡致到馬委員請說因為這個部分我們搬用機槍總共要買2060艇的這個機槍"},{"start":25498.212,"end":25498.352,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25521.093,"end":25539.291,"text":"來簡單說明一下那個跟委員報告齁因為T5的機槍跟今年預定是460體目前我們的我們一年的產量是250啦現在我們已經產製了300因為貨幣戰力這是一兩年新增了我們205都是雙班現在員工都是早上7點鐘到晚上"},{"start":25540.032,"end":25564.317,"text":"七點鐘才下班已經完成了三百庭我們就是還有再差我們會在明年四月底前全部場完之後還要去交軍我們就差那四個月我們現在都在加我們現在做好已經三百庭那這個委員的動結書就有道理他要聽你的進度那陸軍你的驗收也要特別因為他加班我就擔心病請你們驗收是要注意一下"},{"start":25565.858,"end":25569.061,"text":"但要他的裝填、填藥的方法、工法那些其實是很專業的如果我們能夠買到國外的就有技術可以移轉回來"},{"start":25583.537,"end":25603.988,"text":"我補充一下好不好因為剛剛說要一直加班這個部分我們不是那麼同意啊因為他還是應該要注意安全中科醫院其實也出過很多的意外所以我們希望你在這個同時應該要兼顧安全才是最重要的"},{"start":25605.208,"end":25619.034,"text":"我上次有排區205 只有林毅君委員去我希望我們再排大家一起去一方面去看一下為什麼會延遲二方面給他們多一點鼓勵也看這些新式的槍戒國造的狀況"},{"start":25620.755,"end":25626.319,"text":"142-144案林毅君委員凍結100萬書面報告後時得凍資陳永康委員凍結100萬書面報告後時得凍資馬文君委員凍結600萬書面報告經同意後時得凍資145案環境委員提案請說明"},{"start":25646.741,"end":25663.733,"text":"第145案為黃榮委員對陸上機動布雷系統提案指導委員關心整個交貨的進度那本案已經向委員說明建請同意下修凍結金額為200萬提出書面報告後時的凍值進行指導來黃榮委員請因為當時你們陸軍一意孤行的堅持採購所以當初採購火山的布雷系統的爭議比較大"},{"start":25674.521,"end":25694.349,"text":"既然堅持採購也就算了結果採購後面的交貨延宕這是凸顯我國對美金事務採購的問題每一次採購前都說急需採購後又可以容忍交貨的延宕所以這個是我們要檢討的地方以上"},{"start":25697.145,"end":25697.645,"text":"146到147請說明"},{"start":25723.475,"end":25739.939,"text":"146到147案為黃仁等兩位委員對路通用行的油罐車科目預算案提出指導黃仁與馬雲君委員關心本案的建案的執行進度以上兩案已向委員說明建請同意併案凍結500萬元提出書面報告時的凍資進行指導來那個馬委員"},{"start":25747.028,"end":25747.208,"text":"同意凍結500萬"},{"start":25763.823,"end":25767.924,"text":"第148至153案為王定宇等6位委員針對戰術進程無人飛行載具第二階段預算案指導"},{"start":25788.715,"end":25805.095,"text":"王定宇、林玉君、黃仁、羅美玲、馬雲君及陳永康等6位委員關心本案的合格操作手人數以及意外事故的比例等以上6案已向委員說明建請同意併案凍結"},{"start":25807.778,"end":25832.926,"text":"這也是最高的數額是那個152案馬文君委員是以這個原編列數的十分之一也就是6128萬元那提出書面報告後使得動之敬請指導來羅美玲委員然後再來馬文君委員OK我的動的這個金額應該少一個零"},{"start":25835.122,"end":25859.867,"text":"針對無人機非超所缺員人為操作意外事故入境司令部有向本席提交書面報告在數據上確實有看到改善希望這部分能夠持續來進進可是本席提案所關切的另外還有戰術型進程無人機它的操作反應延遲、訊號異常、氣候因素降低、可飛航時速等情形"},{"start":25860.367,"end":25860.467,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":25880.514,"end":25885.036,"text":"152案的部分這是戰術型進程無人機那陸軍的做法是比較特別一點就是我們在決標以後他產製計畫書到交貨期限他核定的時間非常短只有120天那另外第二點就是還特別跟廠商去討論他的專用頻段然後又給了96天"},{"start":25905.706,"end":25909.048,"text":"這都是在決標以後才有這樣的一個做法那因為你如果說像商規的或者像剛剛這樣的一個特別的專用評斷因為海軍也沒有啊所以只有我們陸軍有這個部分我不知道為什麼要這個可能也要說明說明清楚的"},{"start":25927.807,"end":25949.96,"text":"請說明這位向委員說明這個所謂的專用評斷也就是說他有些廠商他原本初始的設計是跟那個核定的專用評斷剛好是相符的那就不要回去重新燒製晶片和測試那如果他原本的初始設計值跟我們速發部所提供的專用評斷是不符的"},{"start":25951.622,"end":25962.818,"text":"這也是一個合理的要求我們也是經過找第三方來共同審視所以我們針對它就是有不服的部分那海軍的部分是剛好沒有這樣子的問題"},{"start":25965.592,"end":25989.601,"text":"那為什麼不事先事先這樣事先因為那不能公開他的那個評斷因為你這樣子那評斷會被不是不是不是我們我們知道你說評斷你專用的評斷可是因為他已經做了就那幾家其實他們沒有理由你說因為你如果是專用評斷那會特別為某些廠商量身經做好像海上的評斷跟陸上不一樣"},{"start":25991.823,"end":26009.669,"text":"現在有共識凍結百分之十我們百分之抓六千萬然後我也提醒陸軍因為其實無人機的運用陸海空都不一樣其實海軍最困難因為海軍有雜波的問題陸軍今天我就聽到不知道是馬偉洋還在提到"},{"start":26010.529,"end":26022.694,"text":"你們在課程的安排上其實讓它變成普遍能力而不是變成好像一個兵種的單一能力這是一個第二個無人機中科院院長也提過一個概念我聽得也不錯未來設計無人機應該要設計到"},{"start":26025.815,"end":26043.697,"text":"（任何人上手（很簡單方便就可以處理（而不是還要耗費人力（訓練完形成戰力（所以對無人機運用（我覺得這是我們國軍將領（大家面對的課題（可能思考要靈活一點（快一點（凍結數是6千萬（我現在先宣告（"},{"start":26045.379,"end":26056.306,"text":"王定宇委員提案凍結300萬書面報告後使得凍支林玉君委員提案凍結500萬書面報告後使得凍支黃仁委員提案凍結500萬書面報告後使得凍支羅美玲委員提案凍結"},{"start":26064.491,"end":26075.454,"text":"你是寫50啦我們都用500啦然後餘數放馬文俊委員那邊啦就是羅美文委員凍結500萬書面報告後使得凍支陳永康委員凍結500萬書面報告後使得凍支這樣餘數多少現在已經2300"},{"start":26090.956,"end":26103.419,"text":"因為我剛才自己唸300,我給大家都唸500我是沒差啦,沒差來,餘數啦,餘數多少?200,但我跟他唸,我是跟他唸500啦我都唸500,我給每位都500啦,我都唸500"},{"start":26113.103,"end":26115.865,"text":"馬文君委員的152案凍結3500萬書面報告經同意後使得凍資接下來處理154請說明"},{"start":26142.287,"end":26164.746,"text":"第154案為馬文俊委員針對幕後型無人機的提案指導那委員也是關心本案的執行進度那本案已向委員說明那委員的提案是元劣數的十分之一也就是2361萬2000元那提出說明報告後使得動之敬請指導馬委員這個154案凍結2000嗎"},{"start":26170.885,"end":26176.668,"text":"154案凍結兩千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支來接下來處理155到157案第155到157案為黃人等三位委員針對無人這個我們剛才處理的是不是同樣的科目類似的東西"},{"start":26188.695,"end":26188.715,"text":"15157請說明"},{"start":26214.73,"end":26225.041,"text":"第15到157案為黃人等三委員針對無人機反制系統預算案指導157為黃人及滿軍委員關心貨裝的騎乘、拖延以及156案為領域軍委員關心投標廠商的風險應對計劃"},{"start":26232.368,"end":26245.014,"text":"以上三案已經向委員說明建起同意併案本案也是157案以馬文君委員的提案是凍結原編數的十分之一也就是45667000元提出書面報告時的凍資敬請知道"},{"start":26252.175,"end":26269.036,"text":"來,黃政委員針對這個就是因為本案為了事傷而事傷導致國軍本應該可以及時取得了裝備但是呢硬生生的拖了兩年還沒有結果那本席認為事當中有太多政策的干擾害得國軍反而無法"},{"start":26270.157,"end":26279.35,"text":"依照自身的作戰需求規劃採購案（對防務造成了不良的影響（所以本席冰凍3000萬"},{"start":26284.72,"end":26305.246,"text":"這個部分因為現在的反制作為是非常重要剛開始無人機它發揮很大的一個攻擊的能力可是到後期其實都是因為反制干擾其實它大概就已經喪失很多很多的功能所以它的反制作為應該要如期如止的完成而且不要延期"},{"start":26306.946,"end":26317.731,"text":"目前為止都還沒有合格的廠商所以今年的進度是完全落後我們希望怎麼樣如期如質又不要延期的情況之下這個精進的作為再提供書面報告好來我來處理這預算數155到157我們這個就並安處理了以這個4千萬嗎並安凍結4千萬嗎"},{"start":26336.098,"end":26340.181,"text":"158至159案為林玉君等兩位委員關心兼徵型無人機的提案指導"},{"start":26357.89,"end":26373.014,"text":"林毅君委員關心的是無人機抗干擾以及避障的能力那馬雲君委員關心的是採購的進度以上兩案已經向委員說明建請同意併案凍結1363萬8千元提出書面報告後使得凍資進行指導來有沒有委員要詢答沒有啦齁我們用林毅君委員的當主題案啦你們剛同意的是多少錢十分之一千三我們就一千三百萬啦齁"},{"start":26387.742,"end":26397.766,"text":"並按凍結1300萬（以林毅君委員158案為主提案（書面報告經同意後（使得凍支來160案到161案請說明第160、161案為黃仁等兩位委員針對攻擊無人機系統的提案指導那"},{"start":26412.486,"end":26425.777,"text":"一百六十案黃榮委員關心為何捨國產而外購一百六十案為馬雲軍委員關心採購進度那以上兩案以向委員說明那我這邊要再特別報告"},{"start":26429.432,"end":26441.73,"text":"在這個列銷的這個案子也就是反甲型的攻擊無人機那經向馬文君委員溝通後馬文君委員提案簡列"},{"start":26446.837,"end":26466.677,"text":"52億390萬3千元也就是原編預算滿軍委員同意保留114年發價書的需款金額6億2430萬3千元但是我這邊仍然要向整個大院及委員會報告陸軍對整個案的全案的需求以下做一個簡要的報告"},{"start":26467.458,"end":26487.472,"text":"第一個也就是說在這個案子裡面雖然我們目前已經獲得291架的這個攻擊無人機那這是一個短交期它可以從114到115就貨裝完畢但是實際上這Otis 600的攻擊無人機在目前我們陸軍完成的整個無人機"},{"start":26488.413,"end":26503.138,"text":"整體運用和需求我們的需求上面目前是高達要進2000架那也就是說如果以本案的在這個行政院核定的整歸書的這個金額額度欲度裡面115億那"},{"start":26508.311,"end":26530.6,"text":"有61億元的預渡（那這61億元的預渡（我們是建請大院能夠同意（我們增購（將近等於是適合國家的5億元（盧君將,我們這樣來處理（馬文有同意留612嗎（因為他明年還是（我知道,我現在這樣處理（因為要算精準（還是我們減列45億（這樣算得夠不夠（"},{"start":26535.781,"end":26562.209,"text":"剪裂40...要算準喔 差一塊錢就麻煩了麻煩剪裂45啦好 我們的原則啦他們把它算清楚沒有問題我們現在就是就我們應該給每方這一次的一個發酵書的...612嘛對 應該多少 就是全案啦全案多少 就是多少其他的另起新案因為我們所有其他的對啊 但按照我們"},{"start":26565.272,"end":26581.328,"text":"一百六十案跟一百六十一案列銷案這一個案子我們檢列數以五十二億三百九十萬三千元扣除發價書的六億兩千餘億元請精準算出"},{"start":26584.791,"end":26605.259,"text":"第2個對於陸軍繼續要尋求徵購我會提案用主決議的方式來支持處理可是我們提案是不同意徵購就現有的預算我那個是另外一個案子我用一個主決議好不好我沒有用預算案我用主決議的方式"},{"start":26608.053,"end":26622.662,"text":"對就是說他們繼續去跟Bugging嘛去爭取供應授權我們能夠徵購沒有那個徵購你另起新案我們沒有意見啦我們沒有意見啦就是不要在這個預算裡面去使用這個應該要講清楚我剛才報告一下就是說我剛才說我們的整體在"},{"start":26629.381,"end":26644.121,"text":"反甲的攻擊型無人機方面我們的缺口有近2000架不好意思陳法長我知道你要講什麼你剛剛已經有講過了我們的缺口有多少你剛剛講的刺針、拖飾還有包括我們的海馬斯包括我們所有的武器裝備我們都有缺口"},{"start":26646.284,"end":26646.324,"text":"主席"},{"start":26668.755,"end":26673.519,"text":"我覺得可以從二無戰爭他那兩架出去攻擊的時候全部被打下來這樣我們是不是一定要這樣子的或者他應該要求那個公司可以做什麼樣的一個更精進的作為我覺得這是我們必須要要求的因為你動輒一百多億所以我們希望還是我們依照發酵說這是預算的原則跟精神如果他這一次同意的是五十幾億、五十二億"},{"start":26696.937,"end":26697.497,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":26717.33,"end":26744.436,"text":"五十二億因為這原始是來自於美國的發價書後來價格下降嘛變成我們要買的數量有餘額那陸軍說他們有需求當然馬偉認為說你有需求另外建案我先處理預算也就預算的部分我們同意簡列五十二億扣掉發價書上的六億二的多餘的部分我們都予以簡列這個我想馬偉有沒有意見那至於我們後面會用主決議"},{"start":26746.01,"end":26765.627,"text":"支持或者授權讓陸軍在原來行政院合定的預算數內繼續去爭取這個案子大家有意見的話我們在組決議的時候大家再來表達意見我們先把預算處理完主席這樣對我們現在的提案的精神可能是有抵觸的"},{"start":26766.508,"end":26781.098,"text":"因為你如果提案你是要讓他這樣子通過那跟我們提案的那個完全違背我的主決議大家也可以反對但我現在先把預算做符合你的需求的把它預算先簡列下來那主決議我們大家再來討論因為"},{"start":26782.159,"end":26785.383,"text":"因為主決議我想表決的話應該是會通過啦我覺得我們可能並不適合這樣子做那我們要求是在原來的全案下去檢列那個預算數"},{"start":26799.342,"end":26799.442,"text":"162案到164案請說明"},{"start":26830.705,"end":26841.011,"text":"162-164案為林毅君等三位委員針對新型步槍的預算案指導162案林毅君委員關心瞄準具的功能及數量163案為黃仁委員關心陸軍首年採購數量卻較憲兵為少164案為馬雲君委員關心設計侵權及年度籌貨量的問題以上三案已經向委員說明"},{"start":26856.553,"end":26871.48,"text":"建請那這裏面也是在這個164案馬文君委員的提案凍結數是編列數的十分之一也就是4271萬3千元那這個提書面報告後時的凍結進行指導"},{"start":26881.099,"end":26886.78,"text":"提案委員謝謝主席針對這個案子新型步槍的部分因為部長其實也特別講過就有請軍備局要去研製新的大口徑步槍因為現在包括美國、韓國、菲律賓這些新一世代的口徑其實都加大了它都已經到了6.8那我們現在的防彈背心的抗彈能力其實也都提升了"},{"start":26906.684,"end":26906.944,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":26923.232,"end":26923.472,"text":"6.8厘米的那個"},{"start":26939.659,"end":26940.219,"text":"我先報告一下首先"},{"start":26966.172,"end":26986.747,"text":"美軍他目前101空降師他預划採取小批量的測試那大概是10萬餘支的XM7的步槍但是相較美軍編制100萬餘人來說他也是仍然是小批量的測試那目前依據最新換裝的步槍的國家包含到日本的豐和兩棟式南韓的K2C1"},{"start":26990.39,"end":26995.312,"text":"以及泰國的MOD兩棟兩棟（法國的HK416F（德國的G95A1（以及瑞典還有英國（他們仍然是以5.56口徑為主流（這第一點報告（第二點換裝成6.8公里（那這個軍備局他的研製待會會有他報告（但是以現行來說（如果換裝到6.8公里的這個彈藥（"},{"start":27016.92,"end":27018.561,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（"},{"start":27043.66,"end":27045.221,"text":"我再補充一下因為我們會這麼提主要是因為你對岸的防彈的強度已經是提高非常多不然我們做槍幹嘛你如果其實在各裝上面"},{"start":27071.442,"end":27071.502,"text":"軍備局說明"},{"start":27095.217,"end":27123.065,"text":"現在是說明剛剛陸軍參謀長也說明了現在美軍的6.8口徑的它是只有在測試階段那剛剛講的它的我們現在5.56的每個單兵是210發然後你把它換成是6.8口徑的它只能攜帶140發重量都5公斤那這個按照去年找回的指導我們今年的年底到明年初我們會出一個班十把出來給陸軍去做一個測評也給他們的特單指揮部第二個"},{"start":27124.405,"end":27145.053,"text":"剛剛馬委員知道沒錯我們的彈對岸的風彈背心它也在加強那我們針對我們現在目前我們國軍有普通彈跟鋼芯彈我們還會另外再研究一種彈種動能更大現在我們明年有的成果之後我們才會對外發表現在還是比較屬於機密的階段以上報告現在是公開會議我知道"},{"start":27154.618,"end":27160.583,"text":"162-164案李毅君委員凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支黃仁委員凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支馬文君委員凍結3800萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支接下來165"},{"start":27172.393,"end":27187.977,"text":"這是一個案而已嗎對一個案來165案請說明160案為馬雲軍委員針對後備部隊手除線電機補充案提案指導委員關心裝備的功能與配置的規劃那本案已向委員說明建請同意下修凍結金額500為500萬元提書面報告後實動之敬請指導"},{"start":27193.827,"end":27197.47,"text":"這個部分我們也是同意下修凍結束不過特別提出來的原因是跟剛剛的那個可能那個什麼急救包那一類的是一樣就是他放著你像手持無線電機我們的後背每一個人都要一支到底為什麼他好像也不需要用到"},{"start":27217.43,"end":27220.672,"text":"如果頂多你先買給那種第一類的是一個新訓旅你可能還可以用得上那你其他的如果我們常備部隊你都有買的嘛我們買了一萬五千三百零九套我們常備部隊才一萬五千多可是你後備就要買一萬兩千多了它的數量跟金額非常高"},{"start":27239.623,"end":27239.683,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27262.352,"end":27263.252,"text":"這部分的規劃我覺得好像有點問題"},{"start":27290.701,"end":27317.566,"text":"陳偉康委員我請教一下陸軍現在拐拐在後背是不是全部太粗了全部太粗了現在沒有用全部太粗了嗎我當兵的時候我已經是拐拐的末期了以前他去偷那個尺去插上去缺件了還是請馬委員支持我們還是希望朝長後遺體的角度出發裝備還是要麻煩一下因為後背都沒有裝備沒有辦法做訓練"},{"start":27322.682,"end":27345.804,"text":"165案凍結500萬書面報告後使得凍支166案請說明第166案為徐曉鑫委員針對戰術進程無人機第二階段的提案指導委員也是關心合格操作手和意外事故的問題本案已經向委員提供完整的資料做個報告因為本案在"},{"start":27347.546,"end":27360.262,"text":"前面的148到153案也就是剛審查的王定宇委員、蔡永康、林玉君黃人、羅美玲、馬文君委員已經有一個決議那這邊考量案內預算執行的必要"},{"start":27361.884,"end":27363.084,"text":"建請委員降低動機數"},{"start":27385.089,"end":27410.427,"text":"因為其實我們從112年4月到112年6月底為止有22起的意外事故那陸軍已經有這個邀請中科院開了5次的策進會議然後呢他們就是針對操作性能故障的5次技術文件等等的但是呢我們很想知道就是說那非人為的因素是哪幾種這些希望可以在這個到時候報告裡面提到"},{"start":27412.148,"end":27435.907,"text":"所以我們的這個凍結金額因為前面也都已經有了我們就併到前面啦對併併到前面把你要求說明的對我們直接併到前面就好了好不好好166案我們原諒這個案我們就同意照列但是請陸軍務必他這個他剛才曲曉鑫委員所垂詢的部分列入到書面你前面的書面要把它涵蓋因為他的目的是要了解你處理的狀況好不好謝謝委員來167到168案請說明"},{"start":27441.491,"end":27469.773,"text":"第167、168案為林玉君等兩位委員針對違行無人機預算案指導167案林玉君委員關心無人機的抗干擾以及避障能力168案蠻軍委員關心本案的採購執行現況以上兩案已經向委員說明建請同意第67案免於凍結第168案建請同意下修凍結金額為原編預算的十分之一也就是十萬元進行指導"},{"start":27470.774,"end":27470.794,"text":"馬委員"},{"start":27491.596,"end":27491.896,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":27514.527,"end":27532.915,"text":"那可是問題是那我的話我前面那個166那我前面我沒有提無人機的啊就變成是說我說我個人沒有提案無人機那我照列之後就那把166案併入到對我不在意多少錢啦148到153但是我要留一個記錄啊我來講把166案我們更改一下決議徐孝興委員的166案併到哪裡148到153148到153併案處理我們預算書都不動了"},{"start":27543.939,"end":27554.143,"text":"但是說明請涵蓋這個內容那167、168有關微型無人機的研發的狀況請載入前面併入哪個案你們要併入前面哪個案一樣嗎167跟168微型的前面沒有不是我知道沒有就是你前面有無人機的部分就併入這個併入剛剛這個1"},{"start":27568.256,"end":27574.699,"text":"148到158以及徐委員的剛剛的166來167跟168並入到148到158預算是不變148到153然後你們在說明的時候要涵蓋到研發的狀況那研製不成外購的可能相關你把它寫清楚好不好是謝謝委員那167、168我們在這裡就並入前面那邊處理了是好來169到169案請說明"},{"start":27598.381,"end":27604.404,"text":"169改組決議169改組決議好謝謝謝謝委員來170案170案委員馬文君委員針對陸軍作戰資源服務系統建制案提案指導委員關心整個的建案規劃那本案原系統是在本案已向委員說明建警同意下修凍結數"},{"start":27626.638,"end":27631.425,"text":"委員的提案是（他的提案才10萬（你在下修沒有366,000元"},{"start":27634.858,"end":27640.843,"text":"三十六萬六千好像很少可是這個案子他全案是六億一千八百零九萬就這個三十六萬過了以後他就是六億一千八百零九萬所以我們希望他可以審慎的"},{"start":27662.838,"end":27669.121,"text":"他說大概的內容有說明就是陸軍營區光纖取代傳統電纜這個部分如果是比較老舊當然你用現在的光纖去取代這個我們沒有意見太幻式服器、資安防護、買授權還有網路設備換780台等等大概有這些說明可是我們凍結的原因很重要的一個是"},{"start":27688.192,"end":27693.196,"text":"如果你是非常重要因為它的執行年度是114到118如果它非常的重要你一整年就只做36萬6千的這樣的工作要告訴我們說這個非常重要然後後面你的期程要三年要做很多的工程我們覺得這個好像有意義所以這個部分我們全動希望它可以把它提出比較具體完整的說明以後不要說前面36萬後面6億"},{"start":27717.795,"end":27721.999,"text":"馬委員的關心我覺得有點道理就是說你這樣子6億那你明年一整年只花36萬"},{"start":27744.38,"end":27769.049,"text":"明年主要是針對我們的招標作業以及我們後續要做一個先期的規劃以及現刊讓這些廠商針對我們的需求能夠去做一個完整的幫我們做一個規劃讓我們後續的案子在執行上能夠可以更符合我們的需求我們的整個案子基本上會在115到117年"},{"start":27770.089,"end":27787.41,"text":"對啦不是不是你廠商他去現勘或什麼當他標到的時候他去現勘或什麼他都要花錢了所以其實我就說你編的這個預算其實是不合理的而且你四年你後面的三年要做這麼多的工作照你的案通過啦好不好凍結十萬嘛你提案是凍結十萬啦確實啦我沒看錯"},{"start":27789.372,"end":27794.094,"text":"這171案．馬文君委員提案通過那書面報告的時候請說明一下你這到底要怎麼去執行好不好列清楚書面報告後使得動之再來是171案主席阿津同意喔"},{"start":27818.687,"end":27818.988,"text":"請提案委員OK嗎"},{"start":27840.776,"end":27841.537,"text":"凍結100萬171案對171這個部分我們凍結的原因就是剛剛有講啦因為我們又要買第二次的救護車我們的駕駛人呢我們現在兵越來越少我們的在"},{"start":27857.975,"end":27858.115,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27880.925,"end":27880.945,"text":"（處理（"},{"start":27898.903,"end":27917.12,"text":"172案請說明172案為陳冠廷委員針對採購及外購軍品作業費科目提案指導委員關心的是有關於預算編列的問題這個案子因為它的屬性不一樣已經向委員報告說明建請同意下修凍結金額為50萬元並提出書面報告敬請指導"},{"start":27921.69,"end":27922.09,"text":"173案請說明"},{"start":27947.172,"end":27959.642,"text":"174案為馬雲軍委員針對主副使與口糧科目的預算提案指導委員關心預算編列以及新式加熱式參核的執行規劃本案已向委員說明建請同意下修凍結金額為500萬元提出順便報告後使動之進行指導"},{"start":27964.045,"end":27967.366,"text":"這個部分我們特別要說明是因為剛開始我們的加熱餐盒是工研院研發出來的其實還蠻實用的而且有需求可是現在我們到那個便利超商其實都有這種加熱餐盒所以他的技術已經很普遍了可是他的金額成本還是很高就是50到12我想這個是不是可以跟廠商應該用越久量越大應該要降下來因為我們的量又是非常大的"},{"start":27993.537,"end":28011.224,"text":"這是一個那現在還有一個就是說它所謂光是這一個就是加熱餐盒它量這麼大它還要260塊到280塊其中我們覺得好像有點不合理的是那個配送它居然要50到55塊比那個剛剛那個技術還要高配送給我們的是寫錯嗎"},{"start":28018.398,"end":28045.604,"text":"對阿,他的金額很高我跟委員報告一下目前國軍的交易室餐盒跟市售的這個所謂的像那個海底撈那一種他的差別第一個國軍的內容物都比外面賣的還要多份量多例如說你為什麼不會帶幾盒來可以,我們的滷蛋是兩顆不會做生意的帶幾盒來我看到沈博洋委員肚子都餓了第二個因為我們"},{"start":28048.699,"end":28069.68,"text":"另外我們的配貨運送因為我們量大我們這邊因為預算書你們應該有溝通過這一部分我贊成馬委員提的其實有些你看起來是在擋預算其實是讓你們當助力你要跟廠商談判就是說我量那麼大而且國軍用你等於幫你品牌加分你還一件一件算而且你的運費50塊運費太高"},{"start":28071.181,"end":28071.541,"text":"173案凍結500萬書面報告經同意後使得凍資"},{"start":28087.704,"end":28112.279,"text":"蘇緣報告的內容請寫出你們努力的作為好來接下來174案請說明174案委員馬雲君委員針對南湖彈庫興建工程提案之道委員關心的是工程的規劃以及進度那本案已經向委員說明建請同意下修凍結金額500萬元提出蘇緣報告後使動之敬請之道好來馬委員OK了"},{"start":28114.301,"end":28116.022,"text":"174案凍結500萬書面報告後,您要不要經同意?"},{"start":28138.356,"end":28160.363,"text":"經同意使得動之那我們現在從疫情前到現在我們終於恢復了有下午可以有小點心給各位大家就享用吧這個國會處好不好那個立法院我們再跟韓院長建議以前真的是有啦但是好像是因為疫情那時候是因為疫情停的"},{"start":28162.93,"end":28163.05,"text":"175-177案請說明"},{"start":28177.853,"end":28194.799,"text":"175到177案為林玉君等三位委員針對戰甲車掩體興建工程的第一階段的提案指導那175案為林玉君委員關心的是工程預算大幅調整那166、167案為馬雲君委員及徐曉勳委員關心工程規劃進度那這邊報告"},{"start":28200.936,"end":28206.839,"text":"在111到112年的預算數為1756萬元原為執行專管設計、建造以及統包設計因為工程費跟物價的波動修訂可憑所以在111到112年僅資用了專管理評估的與設計費427萬元剩下的1300餘萬元就辦理"},{"start":28231.345,"end":28253.313,"text":"設計及建造費研製114年來執行114年編列規劃執行本案所需的公共建設及設施目前克正執行統包工程的招標公告預計在114年的1月可以開標管制於在115年的8月完工"},{"start":28254.502,"end":28276.733,"text":"那以上的三案已向委員說明或提供完整的資料那考量案內的預算為辦理戰甲車岩體興建工程的必須的經費建議同意並按凍結一千萬元那也針對許委員的專案報告建請改列為提出書面報告後時的動之敬請指導來各位委員會議見來馬委員"},{"start":28279.013,"end":28304.031,"text":"這個案子是戰甲車掩體就是要給M1A2戰車用的可是現在好像改了它原來的期程是111年到114年等於明年要完工可是現在又多延了一年到115年而且它比較離譜的是它原來是有三處地方有一個要在那個大崗營區淡水營區還有北五堵"},{"start":28305.603,"end":28318.317,"text":"他不但延了一年他現在把它變成兩處本來應該要執行三處現在變成兩處只剩下大崗跟淡水那剩下這兩處以外他原來的金額是9億177萬現在金額變成17億他是"},{"start":28324.904,"end":28325.465,"text":"經費暴增（原來從49座減到剩下34座（"},{"start":28344.528,"end":28350.031,"text":"如果說用其他的那些理由來說 我覺得都講不過去啊因為第一件事情是你們剛剛這個馬委員已經講了你從這個9億然後變到17億 你說是因為物價上漲可是其實你這樣子是跳了一整倍喔這是第一件事情"},{"start":28364.719,"end":28392.707,"text":"第二件事情是呢因為你也延後了嘛那延後之後呢我我們預計未來的物價只會更上漲而已所以你現在你編的現在目前這個預算那你你之後是不是會變更高我這個我是有非常大的疑慮的而且呢我們整個我們從現在開始我們在看175案嘛對不對我們往後的這所有的工程一直到我看到大概到196案裡面全部都是這些工程延宕的問題"},{"start":28393.607,"end":28407.22,"text":"所以他是一個整體性的問題我對於到時候我們等一下怎麼去凍結我一點意見都沒有可是我覺得你們在整個營造這件事情上面缺失非常的大你這整個營造包含這個我們現在在講的MIA2本來是要這樣做結果後來又改然後呢你的這個金額當初設定也都不對然後你們現在目前我們現在在審查的這一大一大堆到196吼"},{"start":28419.152,"end":28437.322,"text":"19...到195都沒有去考慮到你們現在你說的是未來要做然後接下來的整體的營造上漲的問題因為我之前是市議員所以我每年省都追加預算而且追加很高所以我可以理解預算會往上但是呢你看你到從9到17億這樣我們就沒辦法接受然後我們的時間又往後挪的話"},{"start":28442.385,"end":28458.679,"text":"明年你可能又告訴我說預算又不夠了每年這樣子我覺得我們審查預算就會很難接受所以我覺得這是一個整個要通盤考量的事情這剛才我有建議部長這個部分要研究了其實你們大概有幾個委員一個是其實點你們都估低了"},{"start":28460.27,"end":28489.191,"text":"你們常常起死點的概顧就低了然後預算過了之後呢發包不出去就一直拖拖拖拖然後呢物調費就最後調到23%就往上走了你們這個是減量發包嘛原來要三處改兩處嘛所以未來還要再追一處回來這是這是然後再來像坑子口那個訊廠要達到我們M1A2真正完整功能其實還有四個工項還沒有都還沒有編預算所以你們事實上一開始編是把它壓低"},{"start":28489.992,"end":28514.425,"text":"所以後面就會產生這個對那後面再追回來就會面對委員問你這個問題你們在編列預算的時候一開始因為我們以前是議會一開始就不應該要壓低我覺得呢今天我是站在國防部的角度來說在從國防部的角度來說你們用壓低的方式去那你覺得你第一關過了結果你會每年未來都受到大家的抨擊"},{"start":28515.946,"end":28526.82,"text":"所以這個問題請部裡面去通盤來研究因為不是只有這個工程你們本來就應該要加上物條在你的這個合約我們讓林益君委員先表達好不好 來"},{"start":28528.925,"end":28533.289,"text":"其實我的175案和184案是一樣的因為目前戰車都已經到台灣了但是我們的戰甲車掩體現在好像還沒有整件完成目前國防部要如何存放還有到底何時可以完成還有現在新式的戰車然後我們現在的訓場有適合停放嗎這樣如何滿足未來訓練實際的需求"},{"start":28552.446,"end":28579.5,"text":"請陸軍就剛才的問題同意回答有關於林委員關切這個問題我們完成過詳實的規劃也就是說在部分的確有些在掩體沒有完成的情況下那對於這個戰車的一個疏散跟存放我們都有相關的捧場跟處所那後續當然還是會依據他的需求也就是這個作戰的抗炸的時序來建置"},{"start":28581.637,"end":28603.627,"text":"馬委員不好意思再補充如果這樣聽起來現在有地方放那好像也不需要蓋了反正也有反正你也是可以用你應該要準備車旁邊跟固定的車孔差別有的現在也是做車旁邊這不是你們可是有一些好像還是這樣做包括放無人機的"},{"start":28605.323,"end":28610.926,"text":"我們的MQ9他就是放在那個盆子裡面而已這個部分我覺得要檢討可是剛剛趙偉有特別提到說他們低估其實好像也不是因為專管公司他都已經看過他也估計過也是他設計的在這個部分所有的好像專管公司晚以後統包到後面才會出現問題我們不知道是為什麼"},{"start":28632.077,"end":28653.429,"text":"而且還每一個那已經出這麼多的問題結果繞來繞去都還是這些這些廠商或這些對象我對這些PCM我個人是打一個問號所以他主要不是因為因為原來國防部就低估而是你專管公司怎麼會差那麼多這我覺得這是要通過這些意見你們要聽進去那剛才預算數那個陸軍建議是1000萬那各位如果沒意見我來處理沒有意見"},{"start":28661.189,"end":28670.673,"text":"好,我們以徐曉清委員為主提案並案凍結一千萬元書面報告經同意後,使得凍支好,接下來處理178案"},{"start":28674.56,"end":28693.641,"text":"第178案為馬雲軍委員關心陸軍官校的改善教育設施的工程委員關心整個工程的規劃本案已經向委員說明委員在前面的提案也做了非常專業的指導建請同意名語凍結進行指導"},{"start":28695.489,"end":28714.5,"text":"同意照列我們希望學校的軟硬體設施可以多多重視同意照列學校的設施要加油不要每次把學校放在最後面好接下來第179案請說明這也不用說明了因為我剛剛已經都說明了不要再浪費大家時間改組決議謝謝好謝謝委員179案改組決議180案到181案歡迎大家效法趕快"},{"start":28724.245,"end":28746.466,"text":"第180及181案委員黃仁等兩位委員（針對長安營區訓場整建工程提案指導（黃仁及馬雲軍委員關心本案的工程進度（以上兩案已經向委員說明（建請同意併案凍結五百萬元（提出書面報告（後時的動資敬請指導來黃仁委員有沒有意見"},{"start":28747.887,"end":28747.907,"text":"182、183、185請說明"},{"start":28776.166,"end":28787.097,"text":"182、183、185為黃仁等三位委員針對坑澤口訓場的整件工程提案指導委員也是關心本案的工程進度以上三案已經向委員說明建請同意併案凍結"},{"start":28790.741,"end":28805.445,"text":"兩千萬元提出書面報告時的動資進行委員制我先詢問一下你們在鏗子口的訓場能不能執行MMA2很重要跟現在跟上兩代差異最大就是假看好叫A看BC打就這種這個訓場在那邊能不能執行這樣的訓練可以可以嗎是"},{"start":28810.606,"end":28829.62,"text":"你們要用哪個場地?你那個場地我去看了好多次您說坑子口就是就戰車現在MIA2有一個跟以前不同世代的差異就是有點像F35就是我這台車看見我同時我就可以傳訊鏈接到其他車子可以用最適當的位置去打你們這個坑子口可以用嗎?"},{"start":28830.461,"end":28831.081,"text":"其他委員有沒有詢問的部分?"},{"start":28861.751,"end":28880.928,"text":"這個就是182到185我是坑子口的部分因為他原來編列的預算他把它用了很大一部分放在那個水土保持工程甚至高達3億所以他被影響到其他的這些原來應該有的設施"},{"start":28884.071,"end":28886.992,"text":"有條路有意見我上次印象不是我沒有去看過你那個路因為我們南投其實做水土保持做很多你應該做的我們不反對本來就應該要把它做好你也不可以影響到周邊的環境還有說所有的住戶可是它有比如說設計很多的制洪池啊什麼的不是你在我覺得好像通風把錢"},{"start":28908.198,"end":28909.88,"text":"河口的問題我們有到現場去看"},{"start":28931.926,"end":28933.147,"text":"委員會主席馬文進委員的立場來你們協調的預算處怎麼處理"},{"start":28961.926,"end":28962.266,"text":"現在處理186187請說明"},{"start":28992.455,"end":29012.206,"text":"第186至187案為徐曉鑫等兩位委員針對戰場抗壓新建工程提案指導以上兩案已經向委員說明或提供完整資料考量案內的預算為之應訓場新建工程推動的必要建請同意並按凍結"},{"start":29014.394,"end":29032.087,"text":"這裏面也是以187案馬文君委員提案的這個凍結數是以原預算編列的十分之一也就是3160萬元並提出順便報告後時的凍資敬請指導以馬文君委員的提案為主提案並案處理"},{"start":29034.008,"end":29045.258,"text":"但是那個趙偉這邊要特別講一下就是他們你們要注意一下因為這個戰場抗壓管新建工程我本來是沒有要列的但是在過程當中就發現這個有綁標的疑慮那比方說他們對於一些這個所謂的他們要買的VR設備等等的都寫到那個細到只有一家廠商能夠做出來的這種等級已經改了已經他們調整了"},{"start":29059.892,"end":29060.132,"text":"施行委員會議"},{"start":29079.733,"end":29100.609,"text":"只有很少數的人可以做希望提醒一下這件事情對國防部的重要性這應該除了監督該查就查但是我這個案子我們先處理預算數我看我們病案凍結3000萬整數3000萬以馬文君委員的提案為主題案書面報告經同意後使得凍支抗壓管那時候陸軍參謀長張仁勛我們一起去看的對在北側我們兩個去看的"},{"start":29107.472,"end":29108.052,"text":"188案為馬雲俊委員"},{"start":29126.956,"end":29137.304,"text":"針對和理冒險場新興工程提案指導委員關心的是工程進度本案同意依委員提案指導凍結500萬元進行指導188案凍結500萬書面報告後使得凍失189案到190案請說明"},{"start":29148.274,"end":29163.285,"text":"189190案為馬文君等兩位委員（針對花防部復興營區訓場新建工程提案指導（馬文君及徐曉新兩位委員關心的是（工程進度還有相關的缺工（工程進度的問題（"},{"start":29164.385,"end":29185.313,"text":"本案因為是在花蓮地區（它的一個地震因素導致缺工和地主偏遠以及物價上漲（兩案已經向委員提供完整資料及說明（考案案內的預算為執行訓場信任工程的必要經費（建請同意凍結500萬元（提出書面報告後（使得凍資進行指導"},{"start":29187.654,"end":29187.674,"text":"馬衛媛"},{"start":29207.102,"end":29207.142,"text":"徐委員"},{"start":29228.086,"end":29234.128,"text":"你們回覆的部分說有三個理由說說因為有流標招標兩次都沒有廠商投標對就沒有廠商投標就是流標我們前面幾個剛剛在談的都是沒有特別流標情況而是說預算什麼增加等等我就不講了"},{"start":29247.952,"end":29267.857,"text":"但是這一個花房那它有流標的狀況而且那你們給我們的回覆很清楚就有寫到說地震然後偏遠運輸困難然後物價上漲居高不下的這三個因素但目前沒有辦法看到你們去解決這三個流標因素的原因然後那你們要編列這樣子的一個預算那"},{"start":29268.979,"end":29287.264,"text":"我們就會覺得說你這樣子一直留標一直留標一直留標你沒有給我一個解決的方案就跟先前是不一樣的先前我們討論的都是你們已經整理好了只是說你預算需要但是你這個花房是你根本沒有辦法把現在的因素告訴我們的解決方案"},{"start":29288.124,"end":29299.255,"text":"所以我對於等一下我們怎麼處理這個預算的凍結數額我沒有意見但是你們在沒有解決你自己提出的評估原因的前提之下那你就說你們要繼續蓋那我覺得這是一個非常不理性的行為以上"},{"start":29304.785,"end":29312.614,"text":"主席不好意思我再補充會有這麼多的這樣的樣態都不同的可是都是建築硬體建築發生這樣的問題他流標也許在裡面會有什麼樣特殊的狀況是讓其他人沒有辦法標"},{"start":29322.126,"end":29339,"text":"這個才是應該要去檢視的我覺得不會全台灣所有的公共工程大家都可以順順利利只有我們國防部的有問題所以他到底是有什麼東西是讓人家沒有辦法標這個可能也要去考慮189190我們凍結500萬書面報告經同意後使得動之但提醒國防部尤其陸軍這邊如果PCM原始寫的項目一直留標"},{"start":29349.308,"end":29376.285,"text":"那他會不會是估算的時候就有問題然後流標之後你不追加你讓他減相減量你將來還是要追回來啊還是要追回來然後流標延宕又造成誤調又要漲價又要追加預算然後呢最後標出去了又減相減量後續還要追我們的工程一直在重複這個戲碼所以我真的請顧部長去找出那個原始去算出那個多少項目要多少錢的那個那個機制到底在哪裡因為從那邊就錯了"},{"start":29378.826,"end":29399.658,"text":"每次從那邊錯然後就標不出去標不出去就減相減量然後就已經拖過兩年三年然後物價就調整一年7%就好你看這樣漲多少然後最後再回頭追加這個各個訓場營區基地都有看到這個情形可能那個原始去寫這個案子的可能要把它列入我們的說明裡面好不好好"},{"start":29402.795,"end":29424.884,"text":"以徐曉清委員當主案書面報告經同意後時的動資凍結500萬好再來191案請說明第191案為馬雲軍委員針對手榴彈實彈投擲暨反裝甲涉及訓場興建工程案委員關心的是工程執行的規劃本案已向委員說明建請同意下修凍結金額為500萬元提出書面報告後時的動資敬請指導"},{"start":29431.944,"end":29444.082,"text":"不過因為因為這個都是這是新的嗎這其實也是訓場工程對他訓場因為第一他全案是一億兩千多萬那他後面寫是"},{"start":29448.277,"end":29449.398,"text":"全案是1億2857萬他現在已經有點慢了可是我們現在覺得說是不是要說明清楚的第一個"},{"start":29467.939,"end":29485.164,"text":"當時這是為了一年期的義務役那時候都說沒問題我們訓練場地都準備好了可是現在還是都在用簡易式當然這個就是因為這個還沒有完工的原因或者現在才在執行的過程當中不過他比較特別的是他在八軍團是114年2月"},{"start":29488.945,"end":29489.245,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":29513.024,"end":29529.612,"text":"明年3月是時軍團的專管我不知道為什麼要把它拆成這樣子那這個部分可能也要講清楚然後不要因為又有這些延伸的問題造成我們這個要使用的時候又延宕好,五百萬這個191案凍結五百萬書面報告後使得凍支192案請說明這也是一樣嘛這工程的規劃對,它是先規來請說明"},{"start":29539.983,"end":29552.879,"text":"這個看到是591萬對不對可是這個預估是19億所以他這個是清兵器的靶場興建工程因為我們看到前面這麼多的有"},{"start":29554.568,"end":29554.728,"text":"（處理（三天一次會議"},{"start":29574.778,"end":29578.36,"text":"那以前是確定要蓋了你才去編這個相關的這些規劃先起規劃費嘛那你現在先編了先起規劃費到時候他規劃出來然後把你設計好了等到你真的要蓋的時候可能又過了三年五年那到時候又整個又長高了所以好像這個又跟我們現在的做法又不太一樣也要說清楚"},{"start":29601.277,"end":29605.521,"text":"193-194案為徐巧興等兩位委員針對城鎮站及河山化訓場新建工程先期規劃案提案指導以上兩案以"},{"start":29626.32,"end":29641.365,"text":"向委員提供資料考量案內預算為之應訓場興建所必須建請同意並按凍結一百萬元（並提出書面報告（使得凍值盡情遲到最後一言"},{"start":29642.065,"end":29647.391,"text":"你看這件事情就非常可笑我作為立法委員我應該是要負責來刪減預算的可是你看你給我們的回覆114年度你們要做前期規劃對不對這個我跟部長講一下你看我們講了這麼多的工程"},{"start":29657.022,"end":29671.736,"text":"你要做前期規劃然後呢你要在114年3月前完成決標然後呢要執行什麼地形測量土壤鑽探土地間界可信性評估報告招標文件整體作業你們蓋在哪裡啊你們蓋在這個我看一下齁蓋在反正好幾個營區嘛好幾個營區喔你總共挖新建多少你講一下"},{"start":29684.301,"end":29690.003,"text":"就是你這個前期計劃就針對我們的11個星期11個嘛那你去想喔你前期的預算你去編692萬然後你要做我剛剛講的那些事情然後呢你有11個地方有可能嗎有可能嗎就是我可以改組決定沒有問題但我很想要告訴你們一件事情是說我光看都知道這不可能做到這個"},{"start":29712.449,"end":29712.91,"text":"11個單位有4對阿"},{"start":29728.77,"end":29734.113,"text":"11個新訓旅然後7處總共是4座核生化跟7座城鎮站對嘛那好你光是你要請外面的公司然後呢來跟你投標然後來做這些什麼什麼土地鑑定啊什麼什麼各種作業你人家看到692萬他會想要來標嗎我很懷疑耶我對於現在台灣的物價來說很懷疑"},{"start":29753.024,"end":29757.007,"text":"那好啦那我們反正就又再凍結一百萬然後明年的時候又來又這個不夠然後又增加又減少又增加又減少這不是永遠無限巡迴嗎你在本委會待的夠久你一定會一直在看到"},{"start":29768.317,"end":29776.822,"text":"對阿沒有我不用在博文會應該夠久我在市議會的時候就已經每天都在罵這個事情了所以我的意思是說你前面的已經很誇張但你這個是才剛開始喔所以你的先期規劃就已經出問題了你覺得後面會順利到哪裡去嗎這樣好不好"},{"start":29784.886,"end":29796.896,"text":"因為我們這個案我們其實同樣的事情講了很多啦我相信意見也都給部長做參考了那193、194這是先期規劃案因為他這個是新的啦所以我們希望說他到底要做什麼樣的訓練他的訓場是怎麼樣和聲化的訓場又是怎麼樣所以這個部分其實應該在剛要做的時候也要比較詳實的去做說明跟報告"},{"start":29812.929,"end":29832.388,"text":"這個案子是新的我們期待陸軍跟國防部在這個新的案子的工程讓我們看到如期如質耳目一新的做法那剛才我聽到徐小新委員說他同意該組決議都沒關係因為目的其實我們前面審到現在都一樣的東西都類似的對我知道我說現在這樣子如果說以凍結一百萬"},{"start":29834.15,"end":29841.089,"text":"書面報告讓我們看一下改進的方案你今天過了其實明年我們還是會遇到"},{"start":29841.869,"end":29844.03,"text":"193、194以馬文君委員的案子為主提案並案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍資195萬"},{"start":29869.351,"end":29881.022,"text":"195案為馬雲軍委員針對金湯營區後備訓場整建掀起規劃案提案指導委員關心工程執行的規劃本案已向委員說明建請同意下修凍結金額為500萬元提出書面報告後時的凍資敬請指導來預算書有沒有問題來請說"},{"start":29887.314,"end":29889.296,"text":"同意下修動結束不過我們剛開始我們省就是對於有意見的部分其實都是因為他的工程延宕延期或者他減項減量可是我們看到後面的這幾案都剛要執行他都先做先期規劃所以其實剛開始編的預算其實都不高"},{"start":29911.83,"end":29935.077,"text":"先期規劃也會有一個問題像我們這個案子他編的是3679明年是3000多萬可是他全案預估的工程經費也是19億所以他的工程經費還是非常高那你先期規劃到底要規劃什麼因為我們後面這幾案好像看起來都這樣我們看到這個部分如果你現在100"},{"start":29937.867,"end":29965.911,"text":"今趟營區是比較舊的照理說也是要可是我們要說的是如果你做先期規劃你114年做完讓你最順利好了明年就把它做完結果你117年送院然後可能真正要建案的時候也到118年了對你就又是4年以後那是不是這樣是符合我們的需要能不能即使達到這樣的一個目標需求"},{"start":29966.671,"end":29967.611,"text":"196案為馬雲軍委員關切的是展覽工夫車輛籌補的現況與後續規劃"},{"start":29987.359,"end":29997.569,"text":"本案已向委員說明,建議同意下修凍結金額緣編預算的十分之一,也就是652萬元提出書面報告後,使得凍資進行支導來,那個委員會意見"},{"start":30000.862,"end":30003.043,"text":"這個部分我們簡單說一下這個就針對我們去採購的部分我覺得這個是問題還蠻大的因為當時我們可能規劃你是看哪些單位他的需求他可能要什麼2.5或2.0或1.8的1.6的轎車或者8人座的客貨車或者中客車、大客車1.75噸的客貨車等等他去做調查"},{"start":30027.728,"end":30032.11,"text":"我這個單位假設我需要的我可能要載人要上課或學校的部分假設我需要的可能是中客車或搭客車結果因為你在採購的時候你錢不夠因為剛開始他們可能編有問題編得有些太便宜所以也買不到結果你在招標的時候大家需要的沒有結果我本來需要搭客車、搭貨車他給你小轎車那你的"},{"start":30057.623,"end":30058.883,"text":"196案凍結650萬書面報告後時的凍資再來陸軍的最後一趴197案到201案環保設施請說明"},{"start":30086.616,"end":30092.597,"text":"196（跟證197-201案違蠻軍等兩位委員（針對環保設施的維護（的科目預算提案指導等下我們先（顧部長要去洗手間沒關係（另外我們剛才講說我們要審查到空軍玩具（各位委員們的意見"},{"start":30114.48,"end":30130.418,"text":"197、198、199"},{"start":30130.778,"end":30131.038,"text":"198到兩棟腰"},{"start":30159.077,"end":30160.618,"text":"這三個案子我們同意並動500萬不過其中有一個比較大的問題我們覺得也非常不合理就是在噪音噪音補助的這個委託案"},{"start":30182.967,"end":30202.986,"text":"我相信稍微你那裡也有我也在演我那裡特別多我有好幾個機場在我的選區啊不過你還在撐幾百年欸加上三千個啊所以我很可憐的啊對不是都一致的嗎我有戰鬥機有直升機我們現在要講的是這個委外的費用我覺得是很不合理我們所有的對我們所有的"},{"start":30207.336,"end":30207.376,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":30228.066,"end":30228.086,"text":"委員（"},{"start":30250.62,"end":30268.774,"text":"我們有分成按每戶戶籍人口的現金還有一種是里內建設的費用有兩種那你們委託到底是哪一種的作業我都認為應該結合區公所、里幹事、里林長一起來處理所以這個案子我贊成這個提案"},{"start":30270.676,"end":30287.136,"text":"這邊也表達一下我這邊有意見就是說松山機場這裡先前我是去交通部那邊質詢但是呢這個也是一樣啊我們除了剛才這個趙薇講到之外還有你們發下去的方式就是他錢會最後發不下去你知道嗎"},{"start":30288.188,"end":30308.218,"text":"有錢還發不下去啊對對對因為他有他發錢是有公事的他發錢按照那個公…松山是不是有民航局的費用他有個起降費其實松山跟桃園比我們那裡好太多了我們那裡很小那他發下去呢要都發完呢要兩百年我當時在那個你那個是做冷氣啦不是做冷氣什麼冷氣"},{"start":30309.773,"end":30312.215,"text":"我看這樣子因為每個機場不一樣對每個機場不一樣所以我在講說像我們松山那邊可能會比較小這個我們把這案子做的處理因為我們像歸仁機場是因為從來沒有申請過裝冷氣所以他們就是發現金"},{"start":30332.552,"end":30359.397,"text":"那像一聯隊、台南空軍基地或其他的基地他們會把民國92年以前的房子可以申請裝冷器民國92年以後搬來的不好意思都沒有因為你明知而來的那你加桃園機場、松山機場、CCK有民航還有民航起降費那又另外一筆所以它這有點混亂但是我們剛才跟馬文靜在講的這個事情就是說當你在執行這個的時候有分成里長要辦活動的補助那有一筆"},{"start":30360.137,"end":30387.517,"text":"包括設施還有一筆是受噪音影響那個不是每個機場都有有的機場完全沒有申請冷卻了他才有現金補助那這個作業上坦白講我如果你中我還要替你搬這個我們那個發大概比例都100%因為他每一年發那個居民會認為是他爭取的所以我才會建議空軍或者是陸航這邊要結合地方民政單位去做處理你可以節省一些公帑"},{"start":30388.237,"end":30414.45,"text":"我們想要再爭取一下就是我松山機場這邊可能因為它民用軍用都有所以呢我們去算過這個機場的回饋金啊是用這個每架飛機17塊錢乘以最大起飛重量每千公斤加95塊民航對民航的嘛那這整個東西它發就是因為我們的特色是因為民航跟這個軍的都有它混在一起那你們混在一起怎麼弄"},{"start":30416.008,"end":30428.894,"text":"我們民航沒錢是不是所以因為我們混在一起的關係實際發的戶數呢這樣好不好我們請他專案把這個說明清楚就是說因為我沒有我特別講的原因是因為我並沒有提這個案子所以是不是這個案子也來跟我們說明一下那個197到201案我們這個部分我再補充一下好不好因為不然大家我想會以為我們是凍結什麼"},{"start":30442.259,"end":30446.422,"text":"我剛剛有提到就是現金的部分我講的是現金的部分因為它是450、500、600那我們假設450的好了你如果一家六口你領到2700塊可是執行這個業務的你一家六口我領到1200塊我沒有我只是辦這個業務喔"},{"start":30460.353,"end":30463.855,"text":"所以空軍光是執行這個委託的業務他有1700多萬就是給那個公司他辦他可以執行一年本來我們想說那你如果在一個月之內就是把可以把這個補助金通通交給這些受影響的住戶那可能因為這樣的考量那不是他的其中一年（好像不是這個現金（另外（裝冷氣的也有（沒有沒有現金（是裝冷氣的喔（我現在講現金啦對那你跟我講的什麼是裝冷氣也有"},{"start":30486.69,"end":30487.511,"text":"我們現在處理的並沒有影響到任何回饋民眾的費用我們現在處理的是作業的委外的費用"},{"start":30509.904,"end":30528.201,"text":"到底該不該委外的計算方式因為剛才經過溝通協調並按凍結500萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支書面報告內容請列出你們委外到底要他做什麼事情成本怎麼計算的或者說你們這個委外的內容到底是什麼"},{"start":30529.862,"end":30554.681,"text":"有一個精進的做法就是說如果你們結合區公所、里長、林長你像那個六合局、河川局他們在那個防汛道路在整理那個雜草以前都委外來弄那居民都會說這個草又長大了又怎麼樣子後來他做一個很聰明的方法乾脆委託里長跟志工去把費用給他那草長長的要找誰住在那邊的人他反而達到效果自己QC自己"},{"start":30558.51,"end":30578.655,"text":"反而更省那我的意思是說你們精進作為提出一個就是說詢問一下嘛因為那幾個區公所而已啦公所的里林長願意配合我們濁雨補助也許不用那麼大金額效果更好還有雙重效果一個是發的效果第二個你們木林的效果會更好"},{"start":30579.295,"end":30603.57,"text":"他等於成為你工作團隊的一份子等於你們陣戰體系的一份子去思考看看好不好所以這個併案我們以陳冠廷委員的案子為主題案併案凍結500萬書面報告金同佑使得凍之書面報告內容請詳列你們的做法還有精進的一些策進的作為好我們陸軍到這裡除了移到第二輪的以外呢第一輪的已經審查完略我們接下來進行海軍來換海軍"},{"start":30619.065,"end":30624.546,"text":"邱參謀長,看會不會比陳參謀長效率好一點?效率好不見得是好事,可能都到二輪了"},{"start":30635.643,"end":30637.587,"text":"好 我們來處理202案跟203案的並案那個海軍請說明"},{"start":30644.997,"end":30658.543,"text":"第202到203是海軍司令部的情報跟測量提案委員馬文君委員已到委辦室完整的說明同意併案凍結50萬元並向提出書面報告後指的動機請委員知道馬委員沒有意見我們就這樣子202、203併案凍結50萬元書面報告後指的動機"},{"start":30672.608,"end":30690.542,"text":"主案就用202案202案再來204案請說明204案一樣是法治及法務的作業提案委員一樣是徐曉鑫委員內容提及法治教育跟性品的問題以提供書面資料"},{"start":30691.844,"end":30703.176,"text":"後面會依照委員的指導加強各種教育與官兵相關的法系教育我們會建議依委員提案凍結54萬2千提出書面報告時的通知請委員指導54萬2千是20%嗎對"},{"start":30708.642,"end":30720.511,"text":"我其實可以更少欸我們直接10%就好了好不好10%就好了啦他要你把事情做好因為我是要你把事情做好不是要砍你的錢好不好但是我要講一下你們給我的這個回覆裡面啊就講說什麼呢你們要這個持續運用賴群組宣導性騷擾啊什麼之類的我是覺得"},{"start":30728.277,"end":30742.727,"text":"這個到底呢這個到底有沒有用然後你給我說法際教育說有4萬多人參加這到底有沒有用我們還要再看看但是我覺得呢給你們一些機會不要凍結你們這個錢那就是加油我們現在大家"},{"start":30743.948,"end":30764.346,"text":"哈?你要照片?沒有沒有我就是10%他剛剛算的是20嘛對不對10%好了啦我27萬了對啊就變更少嘛那你那個因為最近很多霸凌啊性騷啊等等大家很在意所以我還是小幅度的凍結那就是讓大家呢有一個警示效果但是呢比你們提供的數字再少這樣好不好"},{"start":30768.368,"end":30791.339,"text":"204案凍結27萬書面報告後使得凍支205案是海軍的採購及外購作業費提案委員為薛曉勳委員那主要是運費的編列那所有的我們對外採購其實專案之外其實所有的運費都是另外編列要特別向委員來說明那這個案子的話請委員同意預算照列免於凍結請委員知道來請說明"},{"start":30794.906,"end":30797.19,"text":"你那個是沒電的啦你那個沒電的"},{"start":30812.004,"end":30835.61,"text":"這個部分呢就是我們在採購軍品的品項運費計算裡面那我們有很多是跨軍種的採購嘛那有那現在編列的運費坦白說我看8000多萬蠻多的那所以我們本來是覺得說呢你會不會有重複或是編列的疑慮比方說像啊像我問一下你們魚叉飛彈跟刺針飛彈的在美運費是不是算在這邊"},{"start":30836.886,"end":30866.032,"text":"206-207"},{"start":30868.41,"end":30883.895,"text":"206-207是死證的部分提案委員為林儲英委員及薛曉勳委員均為預算一般世衛辨列的部分以向委員辦公室提供說明資料及完整的資訊建議併案凍結55萬8千並向外委會提出說明報告後適格通知請委員指導提案委員206-207"},{"start":30894.808,"end":30916.539,"text":"我對於這個數字我是可以接受但是我先讓你們知道一下我關注的是什麼部分第一個是有關於對史的部分那麼我其實是蠻懷疑就是在製作這樣的對史的這種所謂用文字然後印製書面資料的部分有沒有辦法可以提升減少這個所謂文宣的印製輸出的這個部分"},{"start":30917.139,"end":30942.82,"text":"再來就是說其實除了軍券或是所謂的軍中弟兄之外有沒有可能對一般民眾來開放否則你們花五百多萬然後去建立這樣的一個對使的相關的內容其實我覺得一定都是使用率是不高的所以希望你們在書面報告當中能夠展明這個部分對一般民眾開放對使館等等的活化使用的部分好不好是薛委員好來薛委員那我這裡呢我對於這個"},{"start":30945.982,"end":30969.609,"text":"凍結啊我其實我覺得我還是要凍結但我可以凍結很少讓你們都可以運作沒有問題原因是因為我想說一下你們給我們的這個回應裡面寫說呢好你們編的557萬嘛然後保存當時嘛我非常贊同然後其中印製費用是83萬然後我也覺得OK但是各單位使極限在以採"},{"start":30970.689,"end":30982.999,"text":"以電子燒錄光碟為主、紙本為輔的方式我現在不知道還有誰在用電子光碟不是,現在買不到光碟機對啊我沒有光碟機我要怎麼看這些東西啊所以我對這幾個字我非常的驚訝你已經點出了盲腸就是寫的人大概是上個世代的人"},{"start":30989.424,"end":31017.813,"text":"我還好沒看到3.5詞片不然我是不知道怎麼辦所以那個電子光碟的錢啊你告訴我一下這個我呢基本上我要把電子就是我跟你講我要把電子光碟的錢刪除因為我本來寫說我們讓他去找到一個更好的方法好不好就是我跟你講我這個是這樣子我沒有要凍結你但是我就是要把電子光碟的錢刪掉所以我不管他是多少你告訴我10萬也可以"},{"start":31019.894,"end":31047.773,"text":"但請你不要製作電子光碟因為我們現在沒有光碟機好不好這個我覺得徐委員我這樣子好不好我們206、207的提案我們以林楚瑩委員的提案為主題案並按凍結55萬書面報告後使得凍支但是加注意點你們製作對時的載具不管是紙本或者你寫的光碟請與時俱進那我們委員會決議不讓你用光碟"},{"start":31048.413,"end":31052.254,"text":"208案請說明208案為計劃管理作業提案委員馬文俊委員提案內容是以那個林柱英"},{"start":31079.036,"end":31079.236,"text":"208案不予處理209-210案"},{"start":31096.385,"end":31122.072,"text":"209到210是這個行政事務費裡面的一個預算編列提案委員是徐曉勳委員是針對行政事務費編列及這個信憑案件的那這些部分我們也會按照委員的指導來強化各單位的這個處理流程建請委員這個同意預算照列免於三組或綜結這個照列那拜託信憑、信騷、那個霸凌都一定要注意209案、213案同意照列211案請說明"},{"start":31124.393,"end":31134.712,"text":"211案為案關作業提問委員．馬文君委員為硬體設備的新增需求的以下一致為辦是提供說明或委員同意預算照列免於三決動處請委員指導馬文君OK嗎"},{"start":31137.705,"end":31144.591,"text":"對 這個部分我們同意照列可是因為公文系統軟體的換裝這個是新增38萬經費不多可是部本部未來其實可能也會有二代公文的系統的換裝案那它的金額可能也高達十幾億不曉得後面國防部的時候還會討論不過我們在這裡是主要是先提醒如果說國防部都要做了那現在各軍也都花錢要針對公文系統去更新乾脆一併"},{"start":31167.148,"end":31170.65,"text":"211案同意照列但是請軍總跟國防部在公文系統的更新上要有個通盤的考量212到213案請說明"},{"start":31192.847,"end":31199.452,"text":"212-213為政戰綜合費的一個費用提案委員是馬雲軍委員及徐曉勳委員主要是敏感度訓練及心腹機制的已完成說明及資料整備建行委員同意併案凍結15萬元並向外委會提出市面報告時的凍值我先講一下好不好我這裡可以改組決議"},{"start":31213.522,"end":31218.864,"text":"那原因是因為你們要謝謝這個政戰局因為我們這裡當時提案是因為新府的成效不彰當我們在這個會期裡面有非常非常多針對這部分的檢討但是呢給大家看一下這個優秀的例子就是政戰局他們的這整個新府的報告他們重新編列跟整理過後其實是相當就是相當認真在做的"},{"start":31235.991,"end":31236.011,"text":"馬慧蓮15萬"},{"start":31251.408,"end":31255.131,"text":"我想可能也幫我們的一些新府官幫他們講話因為其實在現階段不管是國軍的整體的業務量也好或者他現在必須要面臨的問題雖然自產的這些事件其實一直頻傳可是我想這個問題也不是都是新府官的問題而已因為他發生的因素非常多不管是經濟、感情、制度或者是受到什麼其他的影響"},{"start":31280.789,"end":31284.351,"text":"這些資產如果說我們要編錢讓這些人員去上課然後還要去講習搞到最後壓力最大的是這些新輔官要被新輔的可能是他們所以我想這個部分一出事不要全部都可能甩鍋給他們可是政戰局在心理輔導的部分因為主要分三級嘛你有正常關愛還有特別加強怎麼樣再去做一個更妥適的"},{"start":31307.463,"end":31308.484,"text":"214案為軍事醫療作業為盲軍委員所提出"},{"start":31331.764,"end":31342.228,"text":"提案內容是機械設備的維護需求這一個問題已到違反事實是說明那或委員同意凍結70萬並向外委會提出順便報告使得動之請委員指導沒有問題好214案凍結70萬順便報告後使得動之215到219案請說明"},{"start":31351.212,"end":31369.819,"text":"這個案子是交於行政的提案委員是黃仁委員、徐耀勛委員、馬文俊委員、王定穎委員等4位內容為物品費、一般事務費的跟軍事官邊線的問題以到為半是提供完整塑料及說明,見行為併案同意這個3減這個100萬元科目自行調整3減還是凍結3減100萬元科目自行調整並後續並凍結100萬元向委員會這個提出報告後使得凍結請委員指導好我"},{"start":31380.002,"end":31380.943,"text":"海軍要達成2030國家雙語政策是只有海軍嗎?"},{"start":31394.68,"end":31401.627,"text":"這是一個全國軍都要做的事情那為什麼對因為我們剛剛審那個陸軍的時候都沒有那個雙語教學為什麼啊沒有我是好奇部長還是說就是我很好奇說有嗎沒有啊剛沒看到啊有雙語教學嗎有我剛有聽到有在討論雙語教學有嗎我都我全場都在那個陳建義他自從拿到預算之後他已經不見了"},{"start":31420.886,"end":31424.029,"text":"他這裡回復說雙語教學225萬然後要購置英語原文教材然後有45個單位每個單位5萬然後225萬我是不知道這樣是可以學到什麼英文"},{"start":31438.979,"end":31454.29,"text":"但是沒關係我只是覺得這個說明就很好笑就是說很怎麼講很沒有尊潔我再舉個例子你給我的說明裡面寫說你們買文具、碳粉匣跟紙張是一年要220萬那我怎麼想也是覺得說"},{"start":31458.837,"end":31468.601,"text":"你這個尊潔上面來說的話似乎並不是做得很好然後沒關係好我們2030雙語國家政策我支持你剛剛講的這我OK但拜託我覺得呢我們針對這種什麼文具碳粉匣跟紙張啊真的是能省則省然後呢也要考慮一些效益就是我其實沒有覺得你編錢一定要編少或什麼的但今天我們去想一個狀況是我今天我要打到2030"},{"start":31486.627,"end":31513.212,"text":"的國家雙語政策我要讓我的國軍都聊就是一會講英文好了那你45個單位每個單位5萬塊錢然後你買了英文教材誰看就是說你們有瞭解說到底有沒有人在閱讀嗎還是你就買了之後放在那裡呢那如果你買了之後只是放在那裡第一個也沒辦法達成你的目標第二個你就浪費了225萬這就跟我們先前有講過說是不是像以前我在市議會是不是每一個議會辦公室都要訂報紙"},{"start":31514.611,"end":31515.111,"text":"稍後請陳冠廷委員"},{"start":31543.294,"end":31560.032,"text":"謝謝主席其實這個我講一下我認為說這個雙語教學這個現在是在海軍所以他們理論上是不用說一些服便一些不需要的教材而是針對海軍你們跟這個友方會用什麼樣的是就像你去做訓練一樣在美國的陸戰隊他們的訓練都是以他們的"},{"start":31562.665,"end":31563.106,"text":"海軍說明之前我那個"},{"start":31580.091,"end":31594.164,"text":"負荷剛才陳萬霖委員提法當然我們國軍有國軍的任務目標了語言提升基本上是跟友軍的指令或者相關的口令各方面你不可能再請個翻譯那個作戰的時間會錯過這是一種"},{"start":31595.805,"end":31596.146,"text":"馬文俊委員"},{"start":31613.836,"end":31620.242,"text":"謝謝主席因為我大概是就我們每年像我們海軍這個遠航訓練的部分我們主要三減數大概也是針對這個部分因為我們每年計畫都很完整可是也是每年都有繳回相關的預算所以我們現在編列的已經夠了所以你應該也不需要再增加你增加"},{"start":31636.616,"end":31637.318,"text":"主要的目的是這個部分"},{"start":31645.862,"end":31646.662,"text":"參謀長回答"},{"start":31669.568,"end":31670.528,"text":"剩下的剩下的剩下的剩下的剩下的"},{"start":31692.172,"end":31719.469,"text":"徐曉鑫委員的216案當成簡列案的主案科目自行調整那凍結案以王定宇委員的218案為主題案並案處理書面報告後使得凍支那那個章偉我希望書面報告的部分可以提供一份英語教材給我們參考英語教材有都一樣的嗎你不要給我發現你在讀Sesame Street"},{"start":31720.549,"end":31741.379,"text":"因為你都寫說有每單位五萬元的英語教材嘛所以你就給我們那個每單位五萬元的英語教材一套我們來看看你到底是在學什麼可能會略又不一樣因為等級不一樣有些是士官等級有些是軍官等級你把你的教材送一份來給我們看一下那個明細就好了不用整套拿來吧"},{"start":31741.479,"end":31741.819,"text":"現在處理到219案"},{"start":31762.294,"end":31773.008,"text":"我們待會5點半讓大家吃個晚飯然後我們後續處理到空軍整個完整完我們再結束接下來處理的是220案到223案"},{"start":31776.652,"end":31781.534,"text":"海軍訓練綜合費提案委員．馬雲軍委員．學校軍委員．黃昏委員提案軍委訓練費有關編列．當初發生體測成績．登錄不實的部分．一項委員．完整說明建警委員．同意併案凍結100萬元．提交書面報告後使得凍值．請委員指導"},{"start":31799.358,"end":31802.499,"text":"黃仁委員為主提案並案凍結一百萬書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":31819.991,"end":31820.011,"text":"主決議"},{"start":31838.049,"end":31841.751,"text":"221改組決議其他併案以黃人委員的案為主題案併案凍結一百萬書面報告後使得動之224到226案請說明"},{"start":31857.428,"end":31871.297,"text":"24到26為後勤綜合勤務的一個費用提案委員為馬文俊委員及薛華勛委員提案內容為硬體跟裝備設付費的一個編列那以向委員委辦室提出說明建建委員同意併案凍結100萬元書面報告這個之後施的動之請委員指導"},{"start":31882.601,"end":31883.141,"text":"22426蓋參謀長你們達成的共識是什麼"},{"start":31904.281,"end":31923.635,"text":"同意併案凍結一百萬元來區議員我有意見因為我們剛剛前面有一個啊就是我剛剛有問嘛就是你們的那個文具碳粉匣跟紙張不是剛剛有一個兩百二十萬嗎對不對那你們在這一次的這個物品費用裡面啊你們又編碳粉匣是一千八百零六萬"},{"start":31924.395,"end":31952.743,"text":"那基本上我幫你換算過你可以買3600個碳粉匣所以我不太清楚說你需要這麼多碳粉匣是要做甚呢就是你是想要來請說明來報名前面的是屬於這個官校跟其他的人事行政的就是說雙語教學跟其他這個預算屬於後勤單位比如說我們整個後勤處我們全軍的預算2000多萬都是用在他所有開會跟所有的必要開銷的所以你們每年都每年的碳粉"},{"start":31953.283,"end":31964.114,"text":"就都需要到1806萬要印那麼多東西我們有很多的聯基團單位的這個這個預算科子目的會掛在這個上面他等於所有的單位所有的基地都放在這裡面"},{"start":31964.861,"end":31966.303,"text":"他們應該是採購配下去啦他們基層不會負責採購啦"},{"start":31984.341,"end":31984.541,"text":"224跟226（224跟225（"},{"start":31999.981,"end":32000.121,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":32014.838,"end":32018.419,"text":"．19日及18日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19"},{"start":32041.169,"end":32043.61,"text":"數面報告涵蓋這些病案凍結100萬以225萬為主題案病案處理凍結100萬數面報告後捨得動之現在處理227到228案"},{"start":32058.361,"end":32077.186,"text":"這兩個案是針對的是設備維修維護與管理提案委員為休亞軍委員主要針對下午期的新建營工的工程問題以提供書面資料那相關的這個違規的事項均由這個軍備局級相關的營運署實施裁罰跟這個處分建軍委員同意這個預算照列免於凍結請委員指導來委員"},{"start":32081.368,"end":32109.326,"text":"又是這個建築工程又來了喔怎麼大家都一樣這是養護吧對 它是一個興建同胞工程的缺失但是這個經費是在銀改基金裡面的對 它銀改基金裡面但是它實際上我們會就是凍結它的這個理由是在這個下湖東營區的興建工程的缺失啦那這個發包的廠商違法次數非常多而且上過很多次新聞嘛人家說有那個移工還是什麼的也是在那邊跑來跑去嘛 對不對"},{"start":32110.427,"end":32136.264,"text":"因為交委應該知道這個事情就一直都有移工然後抓到了然後呢每幾個月之後又再抓一批我們乾脆移民署都到你那裡待命好了就那為什麼那裡會有移工呢一定就是你家就包商在違法使用移工嘛不然他們沒事聚集在那廠裡幹嘛所以我覺得就是說我們國軍啊我們在發包這些廠商啊然後在委外的時候啊那我們也要注意到就是其他的勞動法規吧"},{"start":32137.785,"end":32137.805,"text":"海軍﹖"},{"start":32172.057,"end":32173.359,"text":"第一件事情是﹖"},{"start":32186.209,"end":32195.579,"text":"可以但是你要確保說那家廠商你有把他列黑名單不要再給我們看到一次因為這樣子你一法處理就好對你一法處理沒有錯但實際上面呢我們質詢的時候已經講過這件事情了確實有發生然後你們也去做所謂的裁罰嘛"},{"start":32206.411,"end":32208.192,"text":"227、228病案凍結500萬書面報告後使得凍失書面報告請涵蓋"},{"start":32226.837,"end":32253.273,"text":"這個委員垂詢的工程裡面涉及非法移工多次查獲的精進作為以及依法對廠商進行的處置必須列在報告內陳冠廷委員問一下因為之前我們上次問的時候說有沒有那些移工在營區你們說沒有在營區結果他們不是沒有在營區他們是在做營區設施的修繕他是違法上次我在質詢的時候你們給我回應說沒有"},{"start":32254.473,"end":32281.348,"text":"這樣說明一下好不好委員這個是海軍的營區但是營改基金不是正常的預算來這個海軍常委長我來說明這個案子是我們軍備局的營改基金這個案子我們許委員已經給我們諮詢過了那這個移工我們按照因為是缺工的問題只要是公共工程委員會同意的只要一個廠商標到國軍的工程一億以上或者是一個"},{"start":32282.629,"end":32297.16,"text":"標到兩個工程各5000萬以上（就可以引進合法的移工（這個移工的數量（要由公共工程委員會去核定（目前剛剛徐議員講的沒錯（他是非法移工（他是抓到非法移工（然後113年失業（再一次抓到5個（一次抓到6個（按照移民署的標準的罰則是（每一個罰10萬（抓到一個非法移工他要10萬（他有2個是不能用（對（要扣掉2個（對（"},{"start":32311.35,"end":32315.832,"text":"然後呢兩個又不能用然後我們一到契約我們再給他加一次再給他10萬等於我們給他罰兩倍然後並且我們會把他的所有的他的惡行惡狀啊在依照公共工程委員會指導的會在他的禮約的一個績效裡面啊我們在照片的時候我們會把他的所有的違法事項都打出來"},{"start":32330.979,"end":32356.904,"text":"委員一看到之後這一家其實這個都沒問題的但是有的該因為工程會有一個條款可以把它的牌吊銷一段時間這個你們也可以考慮好不好以227案為主案再來是229案請說明229案為水電供應以致馬南軍委員辦公室提供完整的說明以資料那或委員同意預算照例每一項請委員指導來馬委員"},{"start":32360.171,"end":32368.294,"text":"我們發現這一次不管是陸海空軍或其他的單位我們這個電費的部分這幾年其實像前幾年它經費非常高挑高甚至百分之好幾百它都是為了要把它補足可是我們現在看到的數據資料111年是6億5000萬那時候還不足5000多萬112年也是編6億5000萬那時候已經不足1億4500萬"},{"start":32389.341,"end":32397.992,"text":"到了113年（我們已把它編到7億3千萬（結果它不足數有1億7千多萬（"},{"start":32399.304,"end":32425.63,"text":"所以你明年又要編到8億多它每年每年電費增加的幅度非常高這個還只是海軍喔等下空軍更高所以就這個部分因為台電在調漲電費的同時我們國防國軍其實要承受它因為我們是用電大戶所以它調漲的幅度好像高達百分之六十幾這樣是非常高所以65吧有漲到 漲65%"},{"start":32428.24,"end":32432.045,"text":"我如果沒有記錯的話高壓是漲17%低壓電費漲10%應該沒有到65%對啊可是如果是這樣可是他經費是調整調整的幅度是這麼多所以"},{"start":32449.477,"end":32458.837,"text":"所以因為這是只有海軍我就說光是這樣再加上這個到底他要多少才夠"},{"start":32460.492,"end":32479.132,"text":"應該要一個比較明確的一個交代因為你每一年編然後每一年又增加它已經每年增加一億多了所以到底多少應該讓大家知道一下那這個用電的方向應該要怎麼樣去檢討我們同意照列啦可是這個部分到底要用到多少水電費調整不是辦法"},{"start":32482.015,"end":32497.749,"text":"謝謝Marion我們229案同意照列但是可能軍種有一些新的裝備新的東西是要用電的你像未來如果要用雷射的話那個也是把電集中起來然後雷打我的意思說有的是電費"},{"start":32499.511,"end":32500.212,"text":"接下來230到234案請說明"},{"start":32519.289,"end":32540.204,"text":"二三零到二三四案為通信電子的這個管理資訊費及這個後勤通知業務提案委員馬仁鈞委員黃立委員及徐曉欣委員提案委員資訊軟體的設備更新等以至委辦室說明及提供資料請委員同意並案凍結三百萬元並提供書面資料後適得凍結請委員指導馬委員"},{"start":32543.362,"end":32556.873,"text":"就這個部分他經費其實也是有一直在調高可是我們要特別說明的是像在報告的時候就是說我們新增9個單位可是他要買97台電腦"},{"start":32560.745,"end":32565.406,"text":"這幾個大隊其實人並不多所以你提供的資料給我們看到的就是有50、20、50甚至這個高達97台就每個單位各自買自己的作戰的買作戰的計劃的買計劃的通知部門買通知類後勤是後勤然後治海大隊也要50台電腦它只是作業用所以變成大家各自買自己的"},{"start":32586.65,"end":32589.595,"text":"海豐自己也有自己的電腦所以我想其實他可能在這個電腦的運用跟控制還有他的總數我覺得應該要去統整啊不然大家買那麼多然後你只是放著"},{"start":32602.293,"end":32610.976,"text":"234案以232案為主案並案處理凍結300萬書面報告後使得凍支接下來處理235案到244案來請說明235到244案為並案為後勤通知有關軍事裝備零附件及保修提案委員有馬雲軍委員、區號軍委員及林立軍委員等三位"},{"start":32634.524,"end":32659.269,"text":"235-236 主要是針對岸日計籌及戰鬥背心237 為徐曉勳委員提案為中岸飛彈燃料及下午東營區的問題238-244 為林毅君委員主要是針對防護頭盔及防彈鋼板的問題都已經完成去說明及完整資料建勤委員同意併案凍結八千萬元提供書面報告後適可動之請委員指導好我們請林毅君委員"},{"start":32661.852,"end":32687.039,"text":"238-244 235-244"},{"start":32690.017,"end":32699.825,"text":"我們以林毅君委員的第238案為主案好不好好並案凍結八千萬書面報告經同意後使得動之"},{"start":32701.94,"end":32710.722,"text":"主席他剛剛因為有一些病案我們的那個理由我們希望他們要一併考量我們所有的病案提案委員都會有提案的案由那當場開會也會有開會的垂詢所以書面報告務必把這些項目涵蓋在內那我們合併只是為了在預算科目上整併在一起235到244案以林益君委員241案為主題案病案"},{"start":32729.988,"end":32752.482,"text":"動結8000萬元書面報告經同意後使得動之我這邊要回覆的就是呢你們有初步的回覆有關於我們的這個非淡燃料的部分海軍有委託中科院產品這個來做協議書的規範那中科院檢附的合格標準提供海軍審查"},{"start":32753.642,"end":32763.848,"text":"相關的細節以及這個測試的過程那我希望呢可以在你們的回復當中回復當中來提供這個部分"},{"start":32772.091,"end":32789.605,"text":"徐曉欣委員提的部分就請列入報告部分我剛剛選擇那個案子不好因為那案子原列數才6千多萬我們就把它動掉8千所以來找一個適當的科目可能徐曉欣委員那個案子237找一個高的來併才不會佔比太高"},{"start":32800.297,"end":32821.944,"text":"這跟各位同仁報告各位的數量我都有兼顧到所以我們現在是不是這一案235到244以徐曉欣委員的237為主題案並案凍結八千萬書面報告經同意後使得動之書面報告請涵蓋委員錘詢跟書面詢問的部分好"},{"start":32822.964,"end":32824.204,"text":"那245案請說明馬委員"},{"start":32845.747,"end":32862.643,"text":"對這個庫儲設施的部分損壞的部分當然是該修啦那這個大概在兩個地方嘛可是他要修哪些然後他的估價因為我們看到的也是局部的一些資料而已那你高達一億八千多萬所以我們希望還有更詳細的一個說明謝謝"},{"start":32864.785,"end":32866.807,"text":"246-249案為一般武器及戰備資源裝備的構制提案委員黃仁委員、馬雲俊委員及陳冠廷委員"},{"start":32882.386,"end":32898.802,"text":"移到委員辦公室實施說明及提供資料建請委員同意併案凍結300萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資請委員指導來各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們以陳冠廷委員的第248案為主提案併案凍結300萬元書面報告後使得凍資250案到251案"},{"start":32907.996,"end":32918.121,"text":"250-251為陸用型偵偵機的無人機提案委員馬文君委員及林益君委員以完成說明建局委員同意併案凍結300萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資縣委員指導來OK嗎沒有問題250-251兩案以林益君委員的251案為主提案併案凍結300萬元書面報告後使得凍資來接下來252-254"},{"start":32935.509,"end":32948.696,"text":"252到254主要的款項是倉城潛射重型魚雷提案委員為林益均委員、馬文均委員及黃岩委員以完整說明建請委員同意併案凍結1億元提出順便報告10個通知請你們同意凍結1億"},{"start":32950.297,"end":32957.541,"text":"252、254這一個以馬文君委員的提案為主提案並案凍結一億元書面報告經同意後使得凍之接下來是255案255案為建載起的真正無人機提案委員馬文君委員已完成說明或委員同意凍結300萬"},{"start":32979.731,"end":32981.472,"text":"並提出書面報告後使得動之請委員指導"},{"start":33003.929,"end":33018.979,"text":"256案到257案建容級的事情請說明256至257為建容級戰鬥系統提倡案提案委員為馬洋軍委員、黃岩委員以完整說明建行委員同意併案凍結五千萬元提出順便報告時的動作請委員指導有沒有意見"},{"start":33028.252,"end":33047.564,"text":"256、257兩案這個建農級提升案以馬文君委員的提案為主提案並案凍結五千萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍結258案258案為新的方陣快炮的這個構案提案委員馬文君委員已完成說明"},{"start":33049.285,"end":33065.959,"text":"獲得委員同意凍結300萬元（提出書面報告後使得凍資（經委員知道好 那就300萬好 那個地方政快報這個案258案凍結300萬書面報告後使得凍資好 接下來259261案這是我們海昆潛艦原型艦的"},{"start":33074.608,"end":33080.473,"text":"提案委員．馬航軍委員．黃岩委員及陳永康委員提案都有關海上動態的相關的一個測試的問題那建行委員同意這個預算照列免於凍結請委員指導"},{"start":33098.197,"end":33100.479,"text":"主要的風險並不是海軍而是臺船公司要配合測試"},{"start":33115.051,"end":33138.103,"text":"大家以為這個船開出去了就開了因為他沒有成軍不是像艦龍艦在荷蘭完整測試回來成軍再出海去做我們的戰術測評所以第一次出去測海測試的時候臺船公司可能上來30個人然後海軍去support他50個人但是他不是一個完整的團隊他光出港啊人員登艦"},{"start":33139.744,"end":33161.957,"text":"開到港外20海里,可能只有7節,開到20海里已經3個小時了進出港靠到一個多小時,回港又3小時,已經8個小時了然後在海上做4小時到5小時的測試,已經超過大半天了這個時候船上沒有水,自己帶礦泉水,沒有餐自己帶便當"},{"start":33163.311,"end":33182.986,"text":"最麻煩的是這八十個人還不會上廁所因為前進只有三個廁所你沒有受過專業訓練你根本連廁所都不會用所以光第一次出海的準備尤其是在左高外面那個商船密度之大所以你要發布一個"},{"start":33184.212,"end":33185.973,"text":"12月10日中共在那邊演習中間有一條船"},{"start":33209.672,"end":33211.233,"text":"臺船公司對於這次整個出海測試的保險簽了沒有是哪家公司保險"},{"start":33231.971,"end":33232.231,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":33249.963,"end":33252.465,"text":"謝謝老長官提這些專業的意見也感謝改組決議我們就不凍結我不知道其他委員還有什麼其他意見"},{"start":33280.434,"end":33283.596,"text":"我原來是提凍結5000萬就這個部分因為我們現在它的結案的時間延了4年因為在從過去到現在一直對外說明都說我們是非常的順利然後各方面它的工項所有的"},{"start":33301.731,"end":33303.532,"text":"．19日及18日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19"},{"start":33327.663,"end":33328.904,"text":"稍微我這邊再補充一個就是說你的第一條船的結案的時間往後延四年"},{"start":33354.816,"end":33378.659,"text":"當你延到第4年的時候你已經回台船做第一次的場級維修了你在你前面交船了以後如果順利交船你每年要做一次定保這個定保期程你要跟台船由他負責所以第一年回場定保那個是depot level的depot還不是depot是4年後的大修這中間就是我們講的中級維修"},{"start":33379.86,"end":33401.702,"text":"每年都要回去所以你出廠四年結案你已經回廠三次終極維修再加一次大修這個大修一搞一年到一年半如果你大修沒出廠你怎麼結案所以這個東西要臺船能夠非常講得清楚這個不是海軍的責任因為在你的第一個約裡面的首件的大修就是要回臺船"},{"start":33402.262,"end":33405.946,"text":"臺船為了要展現他的修造能力我們肯定但是千萬不要超負荷他都答應我們現在請教臺船全臺船的工人多少人"},{"start":33426.274,"end":33440.387,"text":"海倉廠的人多少工人所以在造船跟修船的時候他是同步由海倉廠的人負責還是他外包比方講他沒有船台他說我跟中信族船台那個錢算誰的"},{"start":33441.736,"end":33462.227,"text":"還有第一次大修的料配件是包括在第一條船的建造所以這個東西請海軍跟海船一定要釐清好謝謝陳永康委員那很專業很中肯的建議我們第259案到第261案是我們海昆軍艦原型艦的第二階段"},{"start":33463.248,"end":33488.535,"text":"那事實上過去4年我們每個節點在國防委員會我們不管是機密會議或者到海參場去到場訪查都按著節點所以這4年我不會用延宕來形容這4年其實是按著節點按著騎乘一步一步往前走從我們照不出來到他照出來還可以進行這個港測這已經是很重要一步那也特別感謝各位同仁我們259261案"},{"start":33490.515,"end":33516.888,"text":"改用主決議處理請主決議提出之後我建議我們委員會的同仁一併都聯署一併都聯署也請海軍把這些專業的意見不管是保險再保險船塢的使用以及在測試的這一個區域範圍內陸海空水面下的維安安保以及空域水域它的時程各方面請詳列在"},{"start":33518.049,"end":33521.934,"text":"回復主決議書面報告上259、261原則上該主決議預算照案通過非常感謝接下來主決議讓陳永康委員先簽"},{"start":33554.094,"end":33564.461,"text":"262案為新一代巡防艦的冤親艦的籌措提案委員為馬文君委員以向建請委員同意凍結異議並提出書面報告使得凍親委員知道馬委員的意見"},{"start":33572.406,"end":33574.967,"text":"統一凍結一役不過這一個案子全案245役這個是新一代輕型巡防艦第二階段的這個原型艦的籌建因為當時被質疑的部分是說可能雷打過大啦或者他的垂發做不出來"},{"start":33594.335,"end":33597.918,"text":"那要籌獲二級艦當時我們也是說我們缺中級艦因為像海軍他分一級、二級、三級那有少校、中校、上校他足級上升都有一型船艦他是可以去接的可是那時候說缺中級艦可是到最後我們因為這些因素我們就沒有做了那"},{"start":33616.474,"end":33619.777,"text":"很多軍官在三級單身艦長沒有二級艦還要等很久才可以升到一級艦所以這個部分要怎麼去克服那媒體又有報導說要重啟震海"},{"start":33630.737,"end":33631.358,"text":"統一凍結伊伊朗"},{"start":33649.01,"end":33662.559,"text":"順便報告竟同意後使得動之就這一個侵巡的部分當然我們缺這個頓位了現在確實到幾頓我們這邊就不講但是除了蓋瑪委員提的那個部分你們要注意我那時候跟你們講說我們現在的存活率跟車業引發的那個"},{"start":33666.061,"end":33682.57,"text":"．19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日"},{"start":33683.51,"end":33684.13,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":33698.916,"end":33698.956,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":33728.461,"end":33751.177,"text":"40年前的派離集這個我請海軍你們去督導因為畢竟他還在照當中那就剛才馬文君委員提到的部分請你們務必除了這個以外如果要重啟一級艦的話那你克服了什麼技術瓶頸讓你可以重啟否則當年為什麼要改這個東西如果是媒體謠傳你待會就可以說目前沒有這個計畫這樣就簡單明瞭海軍有沒有要補充的"},{"start":33754.679,"end":33759.721,"text":"263案為多功能特種作戰訓練的一個訓場提案委員馬元君委員以獲馬元君委員這個溝通說明獲委員同意凍結一千萬元提出順便報告時的動之期委員指導來馬元"},{"start":33782.067,"end":33785.309,"text":"這個部分他其實從109年、110年都是在弄專管甚至那時候還有工程房設備的一個狀況因為我們設備先買然後隔年這個案子我們那時候不是念過你先買了設備房子蓋好房子蓋好設備過期了房子又要好幾年"},{"start":33802.976,"end":33807.701,"text":"所以我們那時候就有提出質疑說為什麼要先買設備因為你錢放在那裡沒有問題啊你應該是把工程完成以後像現在工程又往後延結果你設備買了那把它放那麼久這是我們當時就有提出來的還有另外一個我們希望因為我們很多的案子都是在第一年就把那個標語款就轉到管制預算就把它用掉了這個也是討價薄"},{"start":33828.74,"end":33828.94,"text":"一千萬沒問題"},{"start":33846.582,"end":33846.682,"text":"主席"},{"start":33863.499,"end":33869,"text":"264案為訓場複合式把標的建案提案委員馬文君委員會員同意凍結一千萬提出書面報告使得動之請委員指導這跟前面那一案是一樣的"},{"start":33888.105,"end":33907.163,"text":"264凍結一千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍值265到266康定級的請說明265到266為康定級戰鬥性能的提升提案委員黃仁委員及馬雲軍委員建情委員同意併案凍結七千萬提出書面報告後使得凍值經委員指導馬委員有沒有意見"},{"start":33910.553,"end":33915.758,"text":"這個部分我們會凍結的理由主要是因為抗體級艦戰鬥系統的性能提升他全案他本來就到119年他從111年開始那目前第一艘艦首艦他明年就要完成"},{"start":33928.129,"end":33945.3,"text":"那裝備獲得的狀況跟工程進度關乎後續建後續5艘的那個進程順利是不是可以順利所以第一艘會比較嚴謹那外購的部分總共有5樣嘛目前到3樣所以你目前還在做場測而且還有裝備沒有到所以我們凍結7000萬到了再說是好這一個"},{"start":33956.054,"end":33973,"text":"這個是康定及凍結7000萬另外我請問一下海軍我們現在研發很多海射型的什麼海艦零啊海艦啊到最後那些案子到底建設有沒有過啊海艦零還在做後續我每年都聽到你們說今年一定會通過"},{"start":33973.78,"end":33995.486,"text":"265-266凍結7000萬"},{"start":33996.707,"end":34005.493,"text":"動結7000萬書面報告竟同意後使得動之接下來是267與266以266為主案來267案魚叉飛彈的案房系統來請說267案為魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統提案委員馬文君委員或委員同意動結2000萬元提出書面報告後使得動之請委員知道"},{"start":34025.184,"end":34038.629,"text":"同意凍結2000萬因為他這個可能他有兩項嘛一個就是美方來的還有我們自己在執行的那是不是會如期我們也不曉得那於他現在也還有問題在113年要繳的三輛就是反正飛彈車跟雷達車也都還沒有到所以就這個部分我們凍結希望積極可以去爭取"},{"start":34049.073,"end":34051.094,"text":"267案凍結2000萬書面報告經同意後使得凍資268萬到271萬遣件國照第三階段後續件籌件的後續預算199600萬請海軍說明"},{"start":34069.001,"end":34088.751,"text":"268-271案為併案為僭建國造第三階段後續建的籌建提案委員為林玉君委員、徐曉勳委員、馬文俊委員及黃衡恩等4位委員現在目前的部分因為這是屬於重要的一個政策所以說希望委員可以同意免於刪除及凍結請委員指導"},{"start":34092.256,"end":34101.567,"text":"希望以主決意來取代凍結或其他做法來聽聽不同委員的意見林益君委員請"},{"start":34105.105,"end":34130.471,"text":"針對這個案子其實我們海昆號現在在博港測試都還沒有完成然後後面還有海市所以其實全部的缺失都還沒有在修正的前提下表示潛艦的構型其實都還沒有定然後這整個構型未定的時候要去計算後面漆燒的成本就很有可能預算會暴漲的可能性很高而且目前在測試的階段何時可以才能確定測試呢像上一次部長有說嘛海測試在明年4月完成"},{"start":34133.112,"end":34133.672,"text":"馬文君委員還有其他委員要表達意見"},{"start":34159.079,"end":34160.62,"text":"國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（不含國家安全局部分（不含國家安全局部分（不含國家安全局"},{"start":34180.171,"end":34180.391,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":34210.214,"end":34210.394,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":34240.294,"end":34246.936,"text":"到最後包括你的海事或者有沒有符合我們的作戰需求比如像新加坡他是由德國協助他們去造潛艦他光是第一艘他從下水到他可以交艦使用他總共經過6年7個月或6年9個月"},{"start":34260.52,"end":34263.261,"text":"新加坡跟德國這麼成熟的一個選建製造的國家他都是按照這樣的期程然後才到第二艘第二艘他雖然時間比較短也要一年九個月所以我們明年即使不管你是在九月或四月或者什麼時候你經過海事以後還有一段時間要走"},{"start":34281.371,"end":34284.476,"text":"所以這一段時間其實可以讓我們檢視所有的需求這是第二點那如果我們是用凍結你即使全凍或者我們刪到剩下一千塊都等同於我們通過了"},{"start":34297.517,"end":34303.821,"text":"這個2840億的預算就像我們剛剛提到的啊我們有很多他在第一年你即使編的很少可是你後面綁了一個很大的金額你要執行這些預算那你既然明年他根本不會用到你可以在明年再編如果你明年可以做到了你明年編大家還是可以去讓他通過或者好好的去審視這個預算所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以全三"},{"start":34325.675,"end":34326.196,"text":"這是我們全山的一個理由跟原因"},{"start":34341.636,"end":34358.214,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員那後續由王逸川委員跟徐曉新委員但是你們在發言之前是不是部長或者海軍參謀長就全三會導致潛艦這計畫哪裡自愛難行或者是你們的困難我想溝通一下把它說出來"},{"start":34359.775,"end":34380.867,"text":"我想刪除這一件事情的話就會顯示我們對於後續建的這個建造的決心可能會因此而喪失那我們當然很希望這一個我已經一直以來的承諾就是說我們一定等海策通過以後我們再行動之這個我們現在所編列的這個21"},{"start":34383.55,"end":34400.288,"text":"19一多近21那所以這樣子的一個等到海車通過才會動之這樣子的一個承諾我想絕對是會做得到但是如果說我們不編列然後刪除的話那我想對於臺船而言來講的話"},{"start":34401.389,"end":34416.775,"text":"他對於他人員的維持以及跟次承包上面的一個合作關係乃至於這一個備料本身都會因此而完全的沒有把握說這個後續線是不是會繼續走下去那當然"},{"start":34418.195,"end":34434.284,"text":"我們每一個案子都會還是會把這個每年的編的預算還是送到這個我這個大院來那就跟剛剛一樣的像如果剛有些提到說掀起規劃案也好或者原一開始編列預算也好但是每年進來還是會經過大院的審核"},{"start":34436.085,"end":34436.185,"text":"海軍補充"},{"start":34463.167,"end":34476.966,"text":"海軍補充大概有三點因為敵情前所未有所以說我們現在的老舊的一個兵力都已經一個是70幾年一個是將近快40年了所以說我們在往後delay這往後delay如果看得到"},{"start":34478.868,"end":34502.462,"text":"這兩年後可能廠商不見了重要的供貨不見了那可能就不是兩年的問題這是第一個第一個就是說現在我們有臺船累積的能量那建造的效益它也在提升所以這兩天成大的很多的一些教授也提出這個業績的一些期許那我們對國際友盟對我們現在是最高的如果說我們在這麼最好的狀況下其實我們現在精算成本海軍已經把這個潛艦的"},{"start":34503.703,"end":34503.863,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":34530.763,"end":34553.669,"text":"在這個在我們臺船再繼續做那我們就覺得這個很令人欽佩就請議員能夠多支持謝謝好來王一川委員好我想這個大家都支持潛艦國造在場不會有立法委員反對全台灣都支持第二階段這個差不多會進入第三階段這個把它砍掉"},{"start":34555.458,"end":34561.139,"text":"不要說什麼,這怕砍掉就代表國防部或海軍就是沒辦法做了就砍掉了,砍掉就沒有要做了所以我是這個建議不要砍可是大家對這個潛艦國造大家聽起來還有一些疑慮所以我剛才補充說的海撤後,還有黨用車的錢所以我剛才林益君委員說要凍結"},{"start":34582.981,"end":34585.782,"text":"凍結 凍結也是一個辦法 不要凍那麼多凍十億太多 大家討論要凍多少 千萬不要把這筆預算全部砍掉全部砍掉 國際社會怎麼看我們 砍掉我們的敵人最高興"},{"start":34600.695,"end":34600.755,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":34623.681,"end":34628.445,"text":"中台這會閉大新聞國際社會也會看著說不然在台灣就要遣件國照做兩隻、做幾隻之後說什麼要停這樣不好這個對國際的我們認為我們要自己要有自己的國防也會對我們沒有信心所以我是建議阿朗主席你看協調一下看要動多少我只要協調我面子題才會到現在"},{"start":34651.598,"end":34652.399,"text":"徐曉鑫委員、林柱英委員、馬文君委員"},{"start":34666.79,"end":34686.105,"text":"其實剛才在我們這個原型件的時候那陳永康將軍他也有發表了很多意見那我們也有請教過他那對於所謂的第二艘原型件的部分那是不是有過度樂觀的情況就是說第二艘原型件我們那預算剛才也都用主決議的方式通過了"},{"start":34686.886,"end":34694.374,"text":"可是剛才陳永康將軍也點出了第二階段的第一艘原型艦那在這個部分如果說我們是比較過度樂觀的話當然會讓大家擔心說現在的保證跟承諾說好那9月能夠海策成功11月能夠交艦能不能夠做到這是第一個"},{"start":34708.45,"end":34721.825,"text":"因為如果明就到11月交件假設說有任何一點的閃失的話其實就到後年了所以他有沒有在今年編列預算的必要性這是第一點好第二點呢是我們當然都講說每年都會送預算進來嗎可問題是呢現在的狀況是"},{"start":34727.751,"end":34727.891,"text":"每一艘艇"},{"start":34755.507,"end":34765.632,"text":"我覺得一個政府就我們以民主政治來看一個總統好了一個執政政黨那他就是最多8年那我們一次現在編列到127年來看的話我個人會覺得是有疑慮的"},{"start":34770.515,"end":34773.258,"text":"（中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（不含國家安全局部分（三天一次會議"},{"start":34790.575,"end":34793.636,"text":"有一個決議說我們一次是就在每一次的海策完成之後然後才去簽下一條船的預算然後一次一條就用這樣的方式因為不然我們很難在審查預算的時候去控制那個節點"},{"start":34807.742,"end":34821.809,"text":"海軍那可以自我控制節點這個我都相信海軍可是我們審查預算的時候我們的審查的時間點跟你們的控管節點不一定是一樣的所以在這種狀況之下就會出現雙邊對不上那未來如果有問題那一砍那反而變成是我們後面的劍全部都出問題出狀況了所以這個是我個人的一個建議那我覺得如果大家的想法是差距很大的話那我也建議保留宋協商"},{"start":34834.844,"end":34835.905,"text":"林楚瑩委員一聲援請巡視一下麥克風"},{"start":34847.533,"end":34854.72,"text":"首先我也是滿開心就是今天坐在這邊的委員不論朝野都是支持我們的潛艦國造那麼其實當初我看到這個預算的時候為什麼是20億我曾經跟海軍詢問過因為我們知道現在編列的是後續潛艦籌備的過程"},{"start":34865.091,"end":34884.326,"text":"所以我特別問了這20億用在什麼地方那麼這是我現在念一下當時海軍給我的資料其中17.64億是主要合約就是跟船廠簽約的簽約款表示我們接下來後續要簽約要持續建然後呢武器"},{"start":34885.578,"end":34908.033,"text":"的所謂購置生效款是2億然後聘用技術、法律、會計跟一般行政的費用大概0.36億言下之意就是說如果現在這個砍掉我現在為什麼特別念出來如果海軍這邊有補充可以講就是說這個就表示說我們接下來要後續建造的簽約金然後船務金他完全都沒有實際的進入所謂"},{"start":34911.115,"end":34911.656,"text":"本席是強烈認為就是不可以刪"},{"start":34938.357,"end":34958.472,"text":"至於說也不可以動那至於說到底要怎麼樣可以啟用是不是要等到後續的海測或者是其他的測試之後應該是可以有一個動用的時間點或是一個但書但是如果這20億你就把它砍掉了那擺明了就是後續遣件、籌件、補件"},{"start":34960.934,"end":34970.462,"text":"所以我是強烈的認為不應該刪也不應該動但是可以用主決議的方式來進行處理給他們一個就是可以啟用的一個節點"},{"start":34972.096,"end":34981.924,"text":"馬文君委員二次發言二次發言剛剛有很多委員提到就是說其實我們的主決議也可以做一個就是我們同意全三他如果符合作戰需求的時候馬上編這樣也可以我們展現給全世界看這個部分一樣的意思你如果通過了以後我們馬上編這也是展現我們的決心這個也是主決議這是第一個我們剛剛要聽到有很多委員有提到"},{"start":35002.262,"end":35002.462,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":35016.807,"end":35021.229,"text":"他已經拖延多久今天我們從來沒有新的潛艦我們一直用的就是海龍海虎他一直在維持我們的水下的安全我們從來沒有其他的潛艦那因為原來沒有的就會影響到我們的國家安全這樣的邏輯我覺得好像也很難說得通這是第一個因為你"},{"start":35038.755,"end":35042.138,"text":"海龍海虎你的建容其實也在提升啊而且你還延三年那那那一種的不會影響我們的戰力影響我們的國防安全這是第一個第二個他的人員會不會流失因為我們在做IDF的時候是因為我們那時候周邊的國家韓國那時候他們也在起步我們這些人才停了好幾年他沒有辦法做也許就被拉走了可是"},{"start":35063.559,"end":35066.7,"text":"請見我們像我們剛剛講的日本韓國甚至菲律賓他們要用買的或者像新加坡或者其他泰國等等馬來西亞他們都有國家不管是採購也好不管是要自己建造也好他們都有國家在協助他們所以他們不需要在這邊拉這樣的人才"},{"start":35084.868,"end":35090.751,"text":"而且大家不要忘記他為什麼會流失我們的第一艘艦還沒完成欸這些人都還在做第一艘艦所以人才會流失這個也不可能發生那剛剛講的決心也是啊我們同意啊我們把這個預算刪掉因為你第一艘就還沒做好我們不知道這個預算到底怎麼編出來的你的武器裝備或者你的戰器或者你的載台是不是可以沉到300米以下你不會爆裂我們也不知道"},{"start":35114.002,"end":35115.962,"text":"所以像這些都已經做過我們的不只海撤以後他應該要符合我們的作戰需求這是基本的原則我們如果說這個新的我們以前從來沒有的然後現在因為沒有我們國家就會生死存亡那你其他的武器裝備F16說多重要你都還沒來"},{"start":35136.707,"end":35141.83,"text":"那你要怎麼說那為什麼大家沒有去針對這些去爭取或者應該讓它如期可以到達我們台灣來保護防衛我們的國家這個部分另外還有一個就是你要簽約這才是最大的問題當你通通還沒有一個比較完整的或者這個可不可以用的時候你跟哪一家簽約或者你如果要跟台船台船也跑不了"},{"start":35164.582,"end":35166.704,"text":"臺船本來主要執行潛艦的部分所以剛剛提到的這些部分我覺得這些疑慮大家並不用擔心而且按照我們的決心如果我們正常組決議反過來而已你就把它全刪只要經過作戰測評我們馬上就可以去"},{"start":35189.502,"end":35191.583,"text":"我相信我在國防委員會主持會議我從來不會去臆測每個人的動機背景我們都一起在這邊為國家而努力"},{"start":35211.796,"end":35234.769,"text":"前件也超越了很多不同政黨執政的時候我們都努力的想要有因為那個真的對安全很重要海軍少了水面下的戰力就是只剩一半的海軍這個是海軍將領跟我所說的所以從蔣經國時代到陳水扁時代到馬英九時代到蔡英文時代都不斷的要去籌貨這些前件"},{"start":35236.03,"end":35254.972,"text":"現在我們面對的問題第一個籌貨的難度我相信在場在這個會議廳的每一個人都知道台灣要造出自己的潛艦是何其困難我們在一些特殊的裝備特殊的技術協助連焊接的那個技術我們以前都不會"},{"start":35256.374,"end":35271.96,"text":"我們都不會我們要把它照出來所以我們要自己努力自己有決心其實還不夠還要有外部的人願意來協助那因為國際政治氛圍改變以前買不到的不敢賣給你的他現在願意提供相關的技術協助"},{"start":35273.08,"end":35273.74,"text":"中央政府總預算案"},{"start":35290.871,"end":35308.248,"text":"我們在把這個預算砍到變零那原來我們是希望趕快簽約把那一些很難買到的東西很難取得技術能夠牢牢的掌握在手裡都還怕還怕不見拿到國家輸出許可還怕他把取消而且還真的發生過那我們現在連簽約的能力都沒有連簽約的預算一毛都沒有"},{"start":35317.393,"end":35336.79,"text":"連約都沒有不要說國家的輸出許可了那我們後續見充滿的變數那是對我們國家有利還是不利的變數第二個以造建的紀律來講目前海昆號其實都按著期程走他沒有延宕他現在進行HAT原定期程到2025年的4月要完成"},{"start":35339.548,"end":35358.647,"text":"（測驗不能打折扣也不能放水（要很嚴格的把它檢驗完（完了之後才會進行海測SAT（才會訂到2025年的11月以前（那這就牽涉到我們的預算機率（我們立法院按照法律規定（預算必須在8月最後一天以前送進立法院（"},{"start":35359.795,"end":35377.516,"text":"所以如果我們把這預算凍結了或砍掉了這一個哪怕到9月1號他測完了過關了這是好請見不好意思你要編預算進來要到2026年8月底才能再送進來"},{"start":35380.977,"end":35399.15,"text":"編進來的要到2027將會慢了兩年半以上那這兩年半的期程坦白講也許我們可以講說沒關係我們中間可以開追加預算開臨時會國外冒著風險冒著被中共經濟制裁的這些技術協助他願不願意跟你賭這一個風險我強調"},{"start":35401.952,"end":35421.131,"text":"我們沒有人可以保證這個事但風險到底是對國家有利還是不利我希望大家思考那在預算的紀律上我們當然不容許那個SAT沒有過一毛錢都不要花一毛錢都花所以我們是不是可以找到一個方式既可以支持我們自己國家的潛建國造"},{"start":35421.772,"end":35449.107,"text":"那又可以達到預算不讓海軍在SAT沒有測完之前可以花到半毛錢一個有紀律的處理方式既支持自己國家的安全又維繫預算的紀律如果我們現在把它刪到變零了其實剛才講那些風險通通都會放大而那個放大是對我們國家不利的我希望我們的同事大家好好思考找出一個可以解決的方式來現在請沈波洋委員"},{"start":35451.21,"end":35467.523,"text":"我贊成剛剛趙偉說的齁剛剛那個逸川委員也有提到就是說在座的各位應該都是非常支持潛艦的啦齁我相信也是這個樣子只是剛剛聽到說要全山等到有作戰需求再編這句話我有點嚇到啦齁這個如果說要等到有作戰需求然後再來編的話那個"},{"start":35469.044,"end":35479.795,"text":"臺灣不在還在不在我覺得這個可能是口誤啦但是我還是要說就是說這個其實潛艦國造明拿F35來做例子F35那時候B型C型的時候他要做那個外掛的那個夾艙機炮的那個夾艙也發現對不到目標對不到目標其實是很嚴重的問題但也不會因為這個樣子說我們現在F35就開始都不要再做了"},{"start":35493.047,"end":35513.843,"text":"不會因為這個樣子因為我們今天不可能跟一個人講說你還沒有打拳在打之前我就不給你球棒你必須一定要是在這個狀況之下我們有那麼多的技術涵蓋在裡面這還包含跟其他國際之間還有廠商之間你的技術的移轉什麼等等之類的有些機會是稍縱即逝"},{"start":35514.523,"end":35532.655,"text":"所以我覺得你看前件的時候我們不能夠用我們一般的武器的概念來看所以我目前的主張我會覺得不只是說不要刪我是覺得連動都不要但是我覺得這個歧義有可能會很大但我還是覺得說至少我們在前件這邊尤其是現在美國新政府也要上任"},{"start":35533.095,"end":35543.979,"text":"我們某種程度除了剛剛講的中間不能有空窗期這件事情之外我們其實也是在展現某種程度的決心但不是說我們立法委員不能夠監督我們之前也有開過機密會議在看海關號的這些內容我們也有這一個之後也有可能會有海關號的這些我記得之前已經有排過了保安會有排過那我們之後可能也還會再排"},{"start":35553.302,"end":35553.602,"text":"陳冠廷委員．發言完．陳文康委員．"},{"start":35581.154,"end":35599.917,"text":"其實現在的作戰需求都是支援跟支援的抵銷那現在台灣的時間跟支援有沒有站在我們這一邊所以我真的是很建議我們的所有的同仁能夠支持潛艦的這一個預算不管是撿跟凍我們都先不要做這樣子的考量"},{"start":35601.178,"end":35620.924,"text":"第二點是,自從我們五方開始自製這樣的潛艦之後,中方投資在反潛的預算是非常大。他們不斷的在膨脹反潛的預算。也就是說,對他們來講,我們實質上面已經造成了嚇阻的力量。台灣的潛艦的不對稱力量是在這個平台上面是可以很顯著的展露出來。"},{"start":35621.804,"end":35621.964,"text":"陳永康委員"},{"start":35648.71,"end":35668.763,"text":"各位委員各位同仁我有一個海軍退伍的老兵的觀念來講這個經驗因為2000年的時候談這個潛艦當年這個美中起衝突在南海飛機撞擊於是在小布希任內就同意我們造潛艦那時候叫TDS"},{"start":35670.013,"end":35687.411,"text":"當時我們的長官是因為堅持要軍售美國沒有這個軍自己沒有傳統潛艦他建議商售後來拖了4年我們沒有決定那這個案子就停下來了後來呢又改成ids就說國建國造這個使命我相信所有在場同仁都是支持的"},{"start":35688.152,"end":35700.385,"text":"我現在講的風險跟預算凍結跟停止無關第一個我到今天沒有聽到臺川公司董事長跟他的總經理專案經理告訴我這個2840億8080萬在14年中間的騎乘海軍邊的付款騎乘跟他的造艦復合的騎乘是不是同步調第二個"},{"start":35712.867,"end":35731.482,"text":"我們跟臺船簽約臺船跟其他的供應商簽約沒有一個供應商跟你簽14年的約說出口許可但是呢保證裡面沒有但書我們現在能不能講美國為什麼這麼多的智庫做兵棋推演2026、2027、2028、2029、2032都可能起衝突我希望臺船能夠講如果兩岸中間因為軍事衝突臺船的造艦計劃中斷臺船如何補償"},{"start":35743.454,"end":35764.352,"text":"臺船如何在第三國找到再保險公司來對客戶做出保證這個責任不是海軍不是國防部是臺船要承擔臺船根本講不出來臺船在14年中做7條船是他的理想計劃但是第一條船交船了一年後回去中繼維修"},{"start":35765.613,"end":35777.334,"text":"兩年後回去終極維修三年後終極維修第四年回廠大修這個時候第二條船已經交船了隔一年又終極維修所以到四條船的時候"},{"start":35779.839,"end":35797.268,"text":"4、5、6、7同步在施工這個時候有兩條船回廠大修有四條船在做中繼維修請問臺船的人力負荷跟他的廠棚設施能不能負擔這個部分我要請臺船來報告這個跟海軍沒關係但是真正的東西關鍵在合約"},{"start":35798.248,"end":35817.806,"text":"也就是說不要一廂情願的認為14年是順利的我尊重他的計劃但是如果在14年中間因為不可預抗的意外事件或是其他的國家在出口許可裡面有但書因為天災人禍情勢變化出口許可"},{"start":35818.607,"end":35846.035,"text":"取消了它的出口續合有效只有3年我跟你簽14年哪有國際的廠商說我為你開生產線供應的料因此這裡面有一個重要的角色中科院不能只做底下的只合約商變成臺船的下屬中科院要負責戰系的整合他跟美國要平起平坐而不是在臺船的下屬所以在這些裡面的問題今天都不是預算的問題而是期程的問題14年太過樂觀"},{"start":35850.059,"end":35869.976,"text":"臺國跟中國大陸簽了約買他的039改良型7年了結果3年過後德國通知中共說你的MTU主機我賣給你但不能給臺國我們現在面臨的很可能就是說我們的主機形勢會變也就是說你第二條船你的重量設計"},{"start":35871.499,"end":35900.117,"text":"你所有的規格都會改變你連規範都沒有解釋清楚你跟我說簽一個14年的約太過樂觀我們支持可以分段執行但是14年是絕對做不出來我相信臺船的董事長總經理來我來跟他開會我把過去我參加過所有的合約的討論的跟專案管理的我們做好來談海軍也了解因為風險承擔是全體國人來承擔但是如果這個計劃"},{"start":35901.974,"end":35909.002,"text":"因為意外事件而不是順利執行過程中這個風險由誰來承擔我希望臺船人工事理定清楚"},{"start":35919.494,"end":35919.534,"text":"主席"},{"start":35938.88,"end":35943.443,"text":"因為我們一直在講的主要是它的時間點的問題這一筆預算應該在什麼時候編剛剛陳永康委員其實也提到了很多的重點它包括裡面有什麼必須要更換的時候它甚至都會牽動到所有的不管是從原來的設計面還有未來的製造面"},{"start":35963.533,"end":35963.573,"text":"主席"},{"start":35978.735,"end":35979.095,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":35996.849,"end":36002.251,"text":"所以我覺得大家不要把它放得很高說這個好像我們都沒有問題其他國家這麼成熟大家都有問題我們沒有問題我們也不是看誰可是你的時間點應該在對的時間對的地方這個才是最重要的我們也希望它可以一步一步來那你如果通過的時候因為我們一直強調你今天簽約了以後如果他們提供的"},{"start":36023.919,"end":36024.859,"text":"．19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19"},{"start":36048.689,"end":36050.41,"text":"他都發生這麼多的問題我們怎麼可以這麼有信心要花掉這些預算2840億的時候你可以說你通通沒有問題我不知道在座的誰想要做這樣的保證啊你今天如果他通過了以後大家都沒有話說嘛"},{"start":36064.995,"end":36082.058,"text":"這不是武器獲得應該有的嗎你會去買人家都還沒有實戰經驗或者包括美國賣給我們雖然是舊的至少他也是成熟的產品這是我們要表達或要講的這個部分也希望大家都可以共同支持來我們請部長第一點就是說這個從作戰需求的面來講這7艘是經過海警評估這第一點"},{"start":36092.296,"end":36112.667,"text":"第二點就是說我們跟臺船之間呢如果說今天這個預算有通過的話臺船本身他自己會自己來用自我的資金他會先來付出比如說他可以先做維持住船段的那個部分的製造人才因為那表示你有政府有這個決心通過"},{"start":36114.108,"end":36131.88,"text":"不然的話他人會流失出去這個是第二點那第三點就是剛剛講合約合約的部分我們會注意到就是說因為畢竟這個是逐年編列那到底是如何那我想這個部分合約的相關的責任我們會來進一步的釐清"},{"start":36133.721,"end":36156.426,"text":"那跟次合約商的這個部分在今天通過的話那裝備的次合約商他們當然也比較有這個信心說我們有一個這個決心來做那這個維持住這個次合約商的這個部分所以還是在這個部分總體來講還是希望就是說各位能夠支持那因為這個是年度預算所以我想我們還是會每年的提年度預算"},{"start":36156.966,"end":36158.627,"text":"7點半回來我們今天要處理到"},{"start":36183.12,"end":36184.344,"text":"7點回來我們今天處理到空軍結束明天再繼續"},{"start":36335.478,"end":36335.72,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":36402.995,"end":36404.138,"text":"。（"},{"start":37572.683,"end":37572.963,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":37841.604,"end":37866.177,"text":"現在晚上9點我們恢復開會我看到19了謝謝各位記者提醒現在是7點我們按照剛剛宣告的我們恢復開會但開會之前剛才我有一些問題請教顧立雄部長特別剛剛陳永康委員有提到的你一次"},{"start":37867.518,"end":37881.597,"text":"7台稀燒潛艦14年的跨距有太多不可掌握因素那這裡面可能有一些誤解我們請顧立雄部長來有關這個部分的問題是不是來做一個摘要的說明來"},{"start":37884.739,"end":37908.691,"text":"大概我們本來就是232分階段籌建所以我們希望就是說確實做成這個我們需要7艘的但是我們跟台船的簽約是分階段籌建也就是說先跟他簽兩艘所以簽約是兩艘不是7艘明年的話應該是簽兩艘的所以金額也不是2800多億嗎"},{"start":37910.3,"end":37925.489,"text":"對但是我們希望能夠這個確定是7艘的一個戰力的需求作戰的需求戰力我們所需要的這個作戰需求然後用232分階段籌建的方式來做這樣"},{"start":37926.269,"end":37941.12,"text":"這部分我們在第二輪的時候我覺得資訊充分的揭露委員可以理性的來討論以國家的利益為重那剛才顧部長的說明我再補充我再復述一下就是說我們潛艦國造的後續7艘艦我們戰力的規劃是需要7艘"},{"start":37945.236,"end":37971.023,"text":"但是我們賴清德總統已經決定不用特別預算所以他不會一個包裹他是232的籌貨方式所以明年跟臺船的簽約是兩艘不是一次簽7艘兩艘的價錢兩艘的期程那當然後續三艘有年份的增加之後經費會有所變動還是都要送預算來到我們立法院審查不會發生說"},{"start":37973.164,"end":37986.695,"text":"2800億那過了14年後到底夠不夠我覺得那個沒有人可以掌握了這個訊息蓋城永康委員關切的部分也請相關的幕僚轉達那我們接下來恢復到剛才的第幾案272嗎"},{"start":37990.831,"end":37996.494,"text":"272-275為快速不雷停提案委員為林毅君委員、黃嵐委員、薛浩鑫委員及馬鞍俊委員以完整說明建行委員同意併案凍結一議"},{"start":38012.398,"end":38012.618,"text":"馬委員同意這數額嗎?"},{"start":38031.726,"end":38038.291,"text":"主要的部分是因為快速部雷霆後續建海軍在106到110年的時候編了9億1777萬那是籌建4艘每一艘大概2億3000多萬那現在114年從明年開始114到116還要再籌購6艘比之前還要多可是編了18億672萬"},{"start":38057.405,"end":38070.616,"text":"現在每一艘變成3億多所以它光是三年的時間它經費大概也暴增了7千多萬所以就這個部分我們還是覺得它每一艘就多7千多萬了"},{"start":38077.554,"end":38095.12,"text":"所以如果我們的作戰需求到底是要幾艘然後我們的建案模式是什麼因為你剛開始4艘那你現在做完以後又要6艘然後你的人從哪裡來我們剛剛也提到你不管造了那麼多的船"},{"start":38095.88,"end":38096.04,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":38114.33,"end":38115.09,"text":"276案到278案"},{"start":38141.394,"end":38147.236,"text":"我們智慧警監是不是跟各位同仁我們大家討論出一個原則那後續就比較好處理了智慧警監各軍種是不是就是動10%"},{"start":38167.745,"end":38182.799,"text":"OK嗎好那個智慧警監的部分待會空軍不知道有沒有國防部有沒有有的話我們就是捅動10%會不會造成自愛難行的部分沒有的話我們有關智慧警監就是捅動預算的10%那276到278案呢不是這個已經過去這個是以"},{"start":38194.235,"end":38218.704,"text":"我們以林益君委員的提案為主提案並案並案凍結10%然後以這個書面報告經同意後實的凍結好接下來279到281來請說明279到281為監偵型的無人機提案委員林益君委員、華倫委員及馬文君委員請建行委員同意並案凍結5000萬元經書面報告之後實的凍結請委員指導"},{"start":38233.497,"end":38252.51,"text":"馬文君委員提案為主提案並案凍結五千萬元書面報告經同意後使得動之282283282283為仁溪市短程防空飛彈提案委員為徐曉勳為馬文君委員建請委員同意並案凍結一億元書面報告使得動之請委員知道"},{"start":38256.764,"end":38256.925,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":38259.211,"end":38262.033,"text":"282、283案以283案為主提案凍結1億書面報告經同意後使得凍支284案提案委員不在我們就不予處理再來"},{"start":38286.892,"end":38290.736,"text":"285-286案請說明285-286為採購及軍事作業費提案為馬雲軍委員建請委員同意併案凍結500萬元順便報告使得動資卿委員知道馬委員285-286對作業維持費採購作業費的"},{"start":38312.595,"end":38338.31,"text":"285的部分是針對它的出席費律師的出席費現在好像要求每一個案子是每一個案子它為什麼不是比如說軍總會它是每一個案子都要請一個法律顧問它是每小時計算可是有些人一次5000元然後也有人"},{"start":38345.773,"end":38349.535,"text":"法律顧問真的每個律師的行情不一樣我是建議國軍這邊我們顧立雄律師就知道他最貴"},{"start":38356.823,"end":38373.835,"text":"所以部長應該稍微分身就把他統籌因為他現在的問題都是一致性的如果以你的專業然後把他定出一個標準讓那些（你要他剝削前童業就對了不用不用不用特別那個陳永康委員他沒那麼便宜"},{"start":38382.386,"end":38384.447,"text":"他的那個塔型吊車要兩輛6億那新式港琴拖船要9億"},{"start":38406.801,"end":38419.774,"text":"6千多萬286因為兩岸並安凍結嘛對這個部分他準備要在120年到125年要進行第二階段要買後面的5艘他一延就延10年獲得"},{"start":38422.154,"end":38422.675,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":38447.438,"end":38463.166,"text":"這個部分還分階段他還一次只能買兩艘到底是什麼原因不知道所以他的起始年我們一旦同意做了我們他編的錢很少像他編3700多而已可是總共要十幾億這個都還是在國造嗎其實如果10年他都沒有時間幫你造那這個又不是什麼高技術層次的東西我們真的又需要的話"},{"start":38473.255,"end":38491.373,"text":"我個人是覺得適度的對外採購因為造船業是全球不景氣很簡單說明一下因為原先我們對於這個單價的一個編案當初是過低過低我們一直沒有讓他找到合理的價錢去用那後來我們這次也在部長指導下我們做一個整理我們也做一個究責"},{"start":38492.094,"end":38492.414,"text":"285、286並按凍結500萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支287到289"},{"start":38518.943,"end":38539.615,"text":"以286為主題案他有五百萬的案287到289這個是不是也是脫船對也是脫船是來請說明287到289為新式港船港式脫船的這個這個構置提案委員陳永康委員林義軍委員及黃康睿委員建議委員同意併案凍結36萬3000元"},{"start":38542.817,"end":38568.43,"text":"提出書面報告實得動之信委員知道沒意見了我們287、289並案凍結363,000元以陳永康委員的287案為主提案然後書面報告後實得動之接下來290290是海洋監測能量提升案提案為馬文君委員貨員同意凍結1億元提出書面報告實得動之信委員知道來馬委員"},{"start":38572.213,"end":38575.834,"text":"現在這個是從110年到119年全案50億那可是在這個預算書上面也沒有揭露工作的細項到底要提升什麼然後你只寫海洋建增能量整體提升案那還有包括工程裝備性能等其實這些領域放那個裝"},{"start":38596.741,"end":38619.923,"text":"它是屬於我們雷達站的雷型整合還有一個修繕這樣好不好因為凍結一億進口算大啦你們書面報告詳細列出那個委員詢問的部分沒有可是因為它全案是50億啊所以我們還是希望它去說明清楚比較因為到現在目前為止他們並不清楚然後每年的進度也不知道怎麼樣不管期程也不知道怎麼樣一億對他們也沒有影響"},{"start":38622.005,"end":38625.107,"text":"291-292為魚叉飛彈的海岸防衛系統提案委員馬文俊委員及黃仁委員建議委員同意並案凍結5000萬提出書面報告使得凍結請委員指導"},{"start":38653.29,"end":38671.256,"text":"馬偉沒問題我們希望廠商不要有問題因為之前發生的事希望現在在執行不要再有問題不然萬一裝備來了工程還沒蓋好這也是很麻煩其實要建立一些有問題的太俗機制這個車子才100輛來291到292"},{"start":38676.804,"end":38679.107,"text":"293-294為左營二港口的擴建工程提案委員黃仁基、王定穎委員"},{"start":38695.168,"end":38703.911,"text":"建委員同意併案凍結兩百萬提出書面報告使得凍資請委員指導同意凍結兩百萬那書面報告使得凍資這個是294案再來295案請說明295案為金門烏丘碼頭的擴建案提案委員馬文君委員或委員同意預算照例免疫凍結請委員指導馬文君委員"},{"start":38721.636,"end":38724.88,"text":"296到297請說明296到297為零元巴廠的整建工程以及左營蘇澳的基隆救火毒漏廠提案為馬雲軍委員"},{"start":38738.258,"end":38745.888,"text":"這個案子以296的部分或委員同意3減117萬科目自行調整第297案凍結1000萬提出書面報告時的凍結請委員指導"},{"start":38754.845,"end":38776.693,"text":"296這個也是一開始他標語款就直接用到那個管制預算就把它用掉了他不是回到國庫所以這個部分我們也是希望這個他已經用掉了所以我們前列100多可是不應該是這樣子的使用方式因為已經很多案子另外就是"},{"start":38779.134,"end":38794.158,"text":"297的部分這個全案18億他從111年到115年那這個部分也招111年就招標了可是拖了近三年通通沒有進度這個也是很離譜目前已經在對他的那個工程的部分是"},{"start":38803.377,"end":38813.031,"text":"還沒有左營已經在做然後蘇澳跟基隆的部分現在還在做一個西部的位置調整這個後面會把整個你能夠位置調整表示你標出去要不然你要跟誰調"},{"start":38814.892,"end":38816.233,"text":"296案簡列117萬科目執行調整297案凍結1000萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支接下來298案"},{"start":38838.31,"end":38853.407,"text":"委員不在我們不予處理來再來299案299案為載能公務車的籌補提案委員馬文君委員或委員同意凍結300萬元提出出秘密報告時的動作請委員知道這跟剛剛的案子一樣因為他就買車的部分"},{"start":38856.05,"end":38882.867,"text":"二九九案凍結三百萬書面報告後使得凍支來 第三百案三百萬國軍後備部隊未勤裝備的整備提案為馬雲軍委員或委員同意凍結四百三十五三千元書面報告後使得凍支請委員知道凍結一成是不是四百三十五我們就寫四百三十五萬整數來 三百案凍結四百三十五萬"},{"start":38884.288,"end":38911.438,"text":"順便報告後時的動資不過這個部分主席我補充一下因為像他這個部分他都是買電子類的產品你都是放在庫房電子類的產品其實很容易壞你擺著你沒有用他就是擺到壞所以像這個部分我們剛剛其實也有提到就是這些不管是他的那個醫務所醫務所裡面其實也都有救護車然後你在裝備旅其實也有買那應該"},{"start":38913.459,"end":38919.324,"text":"三百零一到三百零二海軍關校基礎設施的設施提案委員、華龍委員及馬雲軍委員建請委員同意併案凍結一百萬元提出順便報告使得凍結請委員指導馬委員"},{"start":38943.171,"end":38943.351,"text":"都用在哪裡?"},{"start":38955.446,"end":38978.593,"text":"他用的有些是教室的一個用在學生身上我們大概都會支持教學設置跟硬體跟中央控制系統那是現在啦對那之前為什麼現在他你如果看到照片會覺得那個是學校嗎那所以為什麼過去都沒有在需要的時候其實大家都有去看過啊照理說他有需要的時候就應該要"},{"start":38979.913,"end":38982.415,"text":"三百零三案到三百零五案三百零三到三百零五為環保設施維護天安委陳冠廷委員、黃仁委員、黃安君委員、建集委員同意併案凍結一千萬"},{"start":39011.177,"end":39035.278,"text":"請委員指導來委員有沒有問題來陳冠廷委員我這邊是第一個就是說你這個裡面的移除計劃要找專家不要白花錢花白錢然後到時候又沒有每一個省出來的錢都可以增強我們其他的實戰的國防預算那再來就是說我自己是同意就是只是改動200萬就好了等一下我們病案凍結1000我來分配好來請馬委員"},{"start":39038.38,"end":39041.643,"text":"在恆春的部分他環保業務全案那時候其經111到115他就編了6億那在生物多樣從114到117又編了1億2可是我們"},{"start":39065.524,"end":39068.786,"text":"生物多樣性的防治工作其實在113年它已經執行完畢了然後現在又有什麼強勢外來入侵然後要把它移出防治的部分你又重新113已經執行完畢114到117右邊的112所以你大概就這個部分好像也沒完沒了你銀河灣移除以後也種植了原生種可是又可能要再做其他的"},{"start":39094.944,"end":39097.126,"text":"我覺得這樣子好像在整個環保的處理上面好像也有很多問題而且不斷不斷編高額的預算在處理這樣好像也不對所以這個部分也希望把它說明清楚以後再予以解凍"},{"start":39114.609,"end":39139.487,"text":"三百零三案到三百零五案以陳冠廷委員的提案為主提案並案凍結一千萬素面報告後使得凍之經同意另外徐曉新委員的兩百七十四案改組決議另外徐曉新委員的兩百七十七案、兩百八十二、兩百八十三我們剛才處理的方式跟他寫的內容是一樣284、307他同意照列但其他委員有意見"},{"start":39141.508,"end":39151.782,"text":"有關海軍的部分處理完畢除第二輪的部分我們到第二輪再來處理現在進行306案空軍的部分"},{"start":39156.414,"end":39173.98,"text":"各位委員好接下來由空軍向各位委員我先說明306案是第306案為馬文君委員針對時政作業114年新增相關需求仍需澄清以副委員辦公室說明經同意預算照列恭請委員指導來馬委員同意照列嗎"},{"start":39177.295,"end":39178.818,"text":"三百零八案為馬文君委員針對案管作業"},{"start":39193.178,"end":39212.692,"text":"仍有疑問．以副委員辦公室說明．經同意預算照列．恭喜委員知道馬委員同意照列好308案同意照列來309案第309案為馬榮勛委員．針對政戰綜合作業．仍有疑問．以副委員辦公室說明．經同意預算照列．恭喜委員知道"},{"start":39213.386,"end":39215.389,"text":"同意照列310案到312案請說明第310案到312案為馬文君委員及王定宇委員針對教育訓練費仍有疑問均以提供說明資料"},{"start":39232.228,"end":39239.334,"text":"第301案竟同意免予刪減310案第310案竟同意免予刪減凍結金額200萬元提出書面報告後值得動之第311案竟同意免予凍結下修刪減金額為100萬元科目自行調整第312案竟同意預算照列恭請委員指導"},{"start":39258.43,"end":39263.072,"text":"馬委員我用你的311案減列100萬用我的案子來凍結好了好不好好我先答完那你說313到312案以311案馬文君委員提案減列100萬科目自行調整凍結案以312案王定宇委員提案凍結200萬書面報告後使得凍支來請馬委員"},{"start":39290.737,"end":39306.726,"text":"針對310案的部分因為這個是要進行雙語進修那我們空軍照理來說軍購回來的飛機他大概也都是英文的所以其實飛行員他的英文能力基本上應該不差"},{"start":39308.087,"end":39311.97,"text":"維保人員也是都是修軍購的這些回來的飛機英文應該也還可以所以我們到底是哪一類人員需要進修在空軍說明的時候是說112年已經取得英語檢定證照的只佔了12%而已"},{"start":39328.78,"end":39329.12,"text":"你那個進修是為了ECO嗎?"},{"start":39349.071,"end":39366.661,"text":"對 是提升所有人的英文能力因為我們岡山都會派到各聯隊有ECL音訊小組是為了接裝去AIT考試的這個是為了那個嗎對 就是各部隊普遍的人員把英文提升那又是另外一件事了ECL授訊是要跳過來的"},{"start":39367.591,"end":39395.129,"text":"他現在是普遍的普遍的對是針對全軍各單位的大家說英語好不錯來這個是剛才是到312嘛現在處理313到314案請說明第313到314案為馬文君委員針對作戰綜合作業114年新增需求仍有疑問已經赴委員辦公室說明經同意預算照列恭請委員指導來馬文君照列"},{"start":39396.01,"end":39404.056,"text":"好313、314同意照列來315到317案315到317案為馬文君委員及黃榮委員針對訓練綜合作業仍有疑問軍委副委員辦公室說明第315案經同意預算照列第316案經同意免於凍結3減200萬元科目自行調整好沒關係317就不處理是我們3"},{"start":39424.75,"end":39426.276,"text":"315案預算照列316案馬委員同意"},{"start":39432.194,"end":39438.375,"text":"剪列200萬剪列200萬元科目自行調整317案就不予處理這個部分我們剪列是因為預算編的不太合理我們工作部地下靶場維護費要編458萬可是這個靶場到明年7月才會過保固期所以它在保固期間把它編這個預算是不合理所以剪的那個金額是在這裡"},{"start":39460.98,"end":39476.235,"text":"第三百一十八案為馬文君委員．針對國軍設置太陽光電設備．應爭取列為動長單位．以副委員辦公室說明．經同意預算照列．恭請委員指導"},{"start":39481.107,"end":39503.592,"text":"同意照列好318案同意照列來319案到321案請說明第319案到321案委馬文君委員針對通信電子與資訊管理仍有疑問以副委員辦公室說明懇請同意併案凍結3000萬元提出書面報告後時得動之恭請委員指導馬委員"},{"start":39507.597,"end":39521.226,"text":"三一九的部分這個是設太陽能因為我們所有的很多我們的不管是學校也好就是國軍很多的單位其實都有失設太陽能可是當時我們談的條件事實上都不好"},{"start":39524.468,"end":39534.153,"text":"在回饋的部分其實也很少可是你現在比較大的問題是我們還被列入在台電我們是列入大戶所以我們調漲的經費非常高那你現在用太陽能你有很多要幫忙"},{"start":39543.578,"end":39547.979,"text":"因為太陽能它如果賣給台電越多是廠商賺走了可是我們用的電也越高我們就要交更多給台電我覺得這是非常不合理的對我們整個國軍還有國防部我們支出的電費真的是太高那空軍剛剛我們講那個海軍的時候他大概都是6億甚至編到8億多那空軍是從8億多已經編到明年11億了"},{"start":39573.124,"end":39574.184,"text":"另外還有後面的這個部分是"},{"start":39599.909,"end":39603.085,"text":"安於後勤這可惜是衛星的部分這一個"},{"start":39607.318,"end":39626.613,"text":"以前都是中科院做的是商售那他資料建置以後他也不能改所以感覺上是不是有變相的被綁標的問題因為他一旦做了前面以後後面全部是他做的而且包括金額也都是由他們定這個是不是合理這個要在"},{"start":39633.051,"end":39639.195,"text":"說明報告裏面要比較詳細的一個做報告319案、320案、321案並案凍結3000萬元書面報告請涵蓋委員不管是書面或者口頭詢問的部分那經同意後時得凍支322案到327案"},{"start":39657.495,"end":39684.007,"text":"用那個3000萬的那個321以321為主案並案處理來現在並案處理322到327請說明第322案到327案為馬文軍委員陳冠廷委員林一軍委員以及陳永康委員針對軍事單位裝備零附件構置與保修預算仍有疑問軍委副委員辦公室說明"},{"start":39684.807,"end":39696.695,"text":"其中馬文君委員針對第322案關切F-16型機鳳眼徵兆夾傷場級修物能量案經同意免於凍結下修三減金額為1000萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":39701.118,"end":39708.721,"text":"另外第323案馬洪君委員針對永營高校機（發動機能量籌建採購案編列預算9億餘元（仍有疑問（經同意免予刪減（凍結金額為9000萬元（第324案到326案（懇請委員同意併案（並第323案凍結（提出書面報告後（使得凍資"},{"start":39726.647,"end":39748.727,"text":"最後第327案經同意預算照列恭喜委員知道好各位委員諾別意見我來分配一下凍結數了因為這金額蠻大的第一個322案簡列1000萬元科目自行調整這個馬文君委員的提案另外陳冠廷委員的部分"},{"start":39754.646,"end":39783.012,"text":"看各位委員同事的意見我們是不是陳冠廷委員、林毅君委員、陳永康委員分別凍結一千萬然後三位凍結一千萬之後的六千萬在323案由馬文君委員的凍結經同意後使人鬥志有九千嘛我把三千萬分配出去我再重新講一次322案簡列一千萬元科目執行調整"},{"start":39784.329,"end":39799.256,"text":"三百二十三案凍結六千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支三百二十四案凍結一千萬元書面報告後使得凍支因為我把同意壓在上面一樣然後再來"},{"start":39800.837,"end":39815.353,"text":"三百二十五、三百二十六號案並案凍結一千萬元林毅君委員提案書面報告後使得凍支三百二十七案陳永康委員提案凍結一千萬元書面報告後使得凍支好"},{"start":39817.034,"end":39837.32,"text":"馬委員請我稍微說明一下323就這個部分永英高校機它每一架都有配備兩具的發動機那這個部分其實是韓翔執行的這發動機的籌補能量那對我們來說其實這也是我們自己的能量"},{"start":39838.22,"end":39861.19,"text":"不過他從113年到116年全案21億他是兩年半的合約可是預算在113年12月就簽了然後飛機其實也還沒有交齊所以我們對這個預算希望他們可以說明更詳細然後也可以提出比較完整的一個做法"},{"start":39861.912,"end":39886.448,"text":"那同意凍結OK好那個書面報告就請注意這些詢問的部分接下來處理329案328案提案委員不在我們不予處理329請說明第329案為馬文君委員針對後勤補給資源預算仍有疑問以副委員辦公室說明經同意預算照列公請委員知道來馬委員OK嗎好329同意照列"},{"start":39891.514,"end":39913.864,"text":"來再來330案到332案請說明第330案到332案為林玉君委員、黃仁委員以及馬文君委員關切新式高校機交機進度均與副委員辦公室說明懇請同意並案凍結5億元提出書面報告後使得凍資恭請委員知道來馬委員"},{"start":39917.001,"end":39930.91,"text":"這一個部分他就是進度落後了啦Honeywell在12月的時候有來臺有來臺灣他只是說明策進的作為可是沒有辦法保證他是不是可以如期的去繳交"},{"start":39932.173,"end":39949.506,"text":"所以在這個部分我們凍結5億那是有這案嗎對沒錯好那個我來做預算分配了330案林益君召委的提案凍結1000萬元書面報告後使得凍支馬文君委員的332案凍結4億9千萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍支"},{"start":39958.775,"end":39981.384,"text":"好接下來處理333到334請說明第333案、334案為馬文君委員以及林益君委員關切愛二性能提升以及採購愛三執行情形據與副委員辦公室說明懇請同意並案凍結五議員提出書面報告後時的凍結五議員知道OK來委員有沒有意見"},{"start":39987.346,"end":39993.631,"text":"這個部分因為113年222原先58億5000多萬那明年發酵素下修的額度高達24億3000多萬所以他編列34億不過我們還是把金額全部挪到最後一年那萬一你114年交不出來該給的東西那我們之前還有很多包括我們的"},{"start":40016.63,"end":40016.79,"text":"5億我來處理一下"},{"start":40034.423,"end":40062.822,"text":"林毅軍委員凍結五千萬書面報告後使得凍資馬文軍委員凍結四億五千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍資本席跟林楚英委員確認一下你剛才我們移到二輪的第69案你同意改成主決議那我二輪就不處理了好原69案請醫生們加注69案改主決議我們在第二輪的話這個案子把它拿掉"},{"start":40065.276,"end":40093.233,"text":"好接下來到第幾案了335嘛來335、336請說明第335案、336案為王定宇委員以及馬文勛委員關切F16AB型戰機性能提升飛彈交運時程以副委員辦公室說明懇請同意併案凍結一千萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資恭請委員指導來馬委員請"},{"start":40096.418,"end":40102.303,"text":"這一個部分因為遠距遙攻飛彈它其實基本上不會運到台灣那原來說114年要給那現在可能又說要到115年我們也看不到然後我們也不知道它到底會這是那個JSOW對所以我們還是凍結然後把後續的"},{"start":40124.312,"end":40125.973,"text":"335案王定宇委員提案凍結200萬書面報告後使得凍資336案馬文君委員提案凍結800萬書面報告後竟同意使得凍資"},{"start":40141.36,"end":40159.691,"text":"好接下來337到338請說明第337到338案為林郁君委員以及馬文君委員關切兼增刑污染機案均與副委員辦公室說明懇請同意併案凍結原編列預算十分之一也就是900"},{"start":40160.712,"end":40162.233,"text":"237案、338案以林毅君委員的337案為主題案並案凍結10%書面報告經同意後,使得凍支好,再來處理339案"},{"start":40177.389,"end":40191.838,"text":"第339案為馬文君委員關切F16型機輕式徵兆夾艙執行情形以副委員辦公室說明經同意預算照列公請委員知道來馬委員同意照列好339案同意照列"},{"start":40193.019,"end":40201.267,"text":"三百四十案到三百四十二案請說明三百四十案到三百四十二案這個不處理了我們情監爭鬥一樣統動10%這個不用討論了以林毅君委員的提案為主題案並案凍結10%書面報告經同意後使得凍之這個"},{"start":40213.579,"end":40215.72,"text":"第三四三三四四案為馬文君委員及黃仁委員關切F16型機遠距精準武器籌購案"},{"start":40244.17,"end":40259.435,"text":"是否能依計劃期程執行以及工程設施等相關問題（仍有疑問（局理副委員辦公室說明（懇請同意併案凍結原編列預算十分之一（提出書面報告後（使得凍結公請委員指揮這個剛才有討論過類似的來343案"},{"start":40265.298,"end":40272.863,"text":"凍結預算數的10%書面報告經同意後使得凍支三四四案不予處理接下來是345案請說明"},{"start":40294.377,"end":40295.237,"text":"這個部分它包含了工程的內容我們花了非常高的預算因為這個大概花了160幾億買了試駕的這個高高空無人機可是我們看它的工程內容裡面它一個是"},{"start":40317.308,"end":40325.875,"text":"整地工廠、辦公室、修護機棚、導控中心、衛星車停放區、滑行道、停機坪"},{"start":40339.245,"end":40356.436,"text":"我想要請教的是這每一架高達40幾億的價值的四架無人機我們剛剛看的工程專管公司設計的工程內容裡面完全沒有可以它的容身之處我們為了這個去編了100多億可是現在這最貴的卻不知道放在哪裡這是合理的嗎"},{"start":40365.762,"end":40365.782,"text":"委員（"},{"start":40381.371,"end":40386.193,"text":"一次會掛掉4台而且你都已經編了工程的經費之前我們也有提到包括一些可能要停放飛機的不管F16或者其他的他都是價值非常高我們現在所有最貴的大概就飛機結果我們在工程的新建而且都新建的都沒有去設計這樣子的一個停放的空間我覺得這個是比較嚴重的他應該要檢討"},{"start":40410.603,"end":40429.975,"text":"馬委員的凍結5億其實是希望你把錢花在對的地方所以你們這個345案凍結5億書面報告請包含存放存放還有安全的考量分散存放存活率的問題存放的考量書面報告經同意後使得凍支"},{"start":40430.615,"end":40434.076,"text":"我再補充一下好不好因為部長也在這裡就是我們剛剛講的這個部分真的如果在對專管可以要求的時候我們應該怎麼要求請部長就這個部分可以下去看看去檢視看看因為你這麼貴的無人機試駕然後你那個修護棚廠它是開放的像我們在替黨"},{"start":40452.463,"end":40454.244,"text":"這部分請部長再多於這個部分可以去檢視看看"},{"start":40482.777,"end":40485.599,"text":"徐曉欣委員提案為主提案並按凍結10%書面報告經同意後使得凍支"},{"start":40505.265,"end":40512.707,"text":"好接下來是348到349案那個處理349就好來請說明第349案為馬文君委員關切F16Block拐動行跡地或識別器尋達密碼機測試已經截角情形已經赴委員辦公室說明建議"},{"start":40529.353,"end":40540.98,"text":"凍結原編列數的十分之一提出書面報告後．得凍支恭喜委員知道馬委員因為目前還沒有測試完成他只要測試完成我們就同意這個就是349案凍結10%書面報告經同意不用經同意了書面報告後．得凍支"},{"start":40549.164,"end":40577.16,"text":"你叫測試完成他就OK了好這個10%不用請同意的來350案到351案來先就351案說明第351案為馬文君委員關切新式高校機性能科目軌跡噴煙裝置執行進度已經赴委員辦公室說明凍結500萬元提出書面報告後使得凍之恭請委員指導來提案委員OK齁"},{"start":40579.469,"end":40580.631,"text":"三百五十二到三百五十三案請說明"},{"start":40596.093,"end":40618.641,"text":"三五二到三五三案為零一居委員及馬文群委員關切F16ブラック拐動型機作戰資源夾艙及武器彈藥籌購案採購項目數量以及工程設施據與副委員辦公室說明懇請同意併案凍結三千萬元提出書面報告後時的動資恭喜委員知道來有沒有問題這個部分"},{"start":40624.517,"end":40632.141,"text":"三五二三五三三五三是我的他目前的進度來因為這個是臺東基準彈藥的一個彈庫嘛他是怎麼設計的然後有沒有依循美軍的既定規範這個部分我們也要請部長也因為反正這些都是比較都是工程的都是工程之前發生的我們希望他不要再發生那他"},{"start":40648.468,"end":40648.989,"text":"秦柏市長﹗"},{"start":40666.566,"end":40690.671,"text":"三百五十二、三百五十三案以馬文君委員的提案為主題案並案凍結三千萬元書面報告經同意後使得動之三五四第三百五十四案為馬文君委員針對TPS、FPS、11軌雷達性能提升案偽中科院製作機動輔具仍需成名以副委員辦公室說明經同意"},{"start":40692.771,"end":40716.998,"text":"凍結2000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資那就照案通過嘛沒有啦你凍結你提案就是2000凍結2000萬這個部分我們凍結的原因是因為他美國的型號其實都是固定的他不想拼裝所以他本來因為是固定的我們要把它做成能跑的就是可以移動的所以美國大概原廠也不願意做就委有中科院那他"},{"start":40718.558,"end":40723.342,"text":"這個部分通常美國大概不太會願意更改這會不會影響到雷達的安全性我們能不能保證因為國外的軍品他當在這個過程當中其實他都經過至少上萬次的這些驗測然後可以達到他的要求那這個部分我們編列的預算也都不少我們希望可以更審慎的去"},{"start":40746.417,"end":40747.518,"text":"三百五十五案為馬雲軍委員關切採購及外購軍品作業費"},{"start":40764.949,"end":40791.783,"text":"以副委員辦公室說明經同意預算照列恭喜委員知道同意照列好 355案這個暫不處理同意照列來356案到359案CCK的來請說明第356案到359案為陳永康委員林英鈞委員以及王定宇委員關切青玄崗基地防護機庫建構是否滿足作戰需求均與副委員辦公室說明"},{"start":40792.563,"end":40818.67,"text":"第356案、359案經同意預算照列第357案、358案經同意改列組決議公請委員知道358嘛來等一下你356、359同意照列嘛356、359同意照列然後358改組決議黃仁委員在講黃仁委員然後林益君委員的呢357呢也是改列組決議改列組決議啦改組決議"},{"start":40821.291,"end":40824.372,"text":"第360案及361案為毛軍委員以及陳冠廷委員關切臺東基地設施興建工程工程進度"},{"start":40851.044,"end":40859.075,"text":"以復委員辦公室說明（經同意並按凍結一議員提出說明報告後（使得凍支公請委員知道這個部分他是台東的"},{"start":40869.614,"end":40885.291,"text":"的設施新建工程這個從110年就已經發包了專管110年現在都已經要114年了他拖了很長的時間而且這個是要放F16V的到現在我們連第二階段的"},{"start":40886.032,"end":40889.534,"text":"我們一直說這個是我們非常重要的一個軍事設施或者我們的軍事裝備可是顯然我們的做法完全沒有辦法讓大家覺得是這樣"},{"start":40915.327,"end":40939.991,"text":"那現在又要延兩年要延到117年那你萬一飛機回來的時候他要怎麼放今天他如果可以依照美軍紀令下去設計因為你根本沒有做過那些專管公司他根本對這些不了解的他做一般的工程來設計我們這些這麼重要的一個軍事設施然後都不符合我們的需求沒有符合我們的需求如果當時他用美軍紀令他連MQ9他都可以放"},{"start":40944.492,"end":40944.512,"text":"陳萬靜委員"},{"start":40968.166,"end":40984.093,"text":"一句話依照美方的建議去強化規格設計保存戰力存號的錯誤不要犯兩邊這個我是建議第一個我們找的PCM專案管理或者是我們設計的人員到底有沒有這個經驗"},{"start":40985.593,"end":41001.33,"text":"如果沒有這樣的經驗的話如果是軍售案尋求每方有經驗的技術協助學一次培養我們自己的量能否則就自己在那邊土法煉鋼一直研或者造出來的東西不合實用這個倒不如一次把它學對來了這個給國防部建議"},{"start":41007.702,"end":41018.272,"text":"三百六十案到三百六十一案以馬文君委員的提案為主提案並案凍結一議書面報告經同意後使得凍之接下來三百六十二案"},{"start":41018.832,"end":41041.898,"text":"第362案為馬文君委員關切岡山基地設施興建工程後續工作項目以及進度及預算調整致用情形已經赴委員辦公室說明經同意改列組決議恭喜委員知道來馬委員同意改列組決議看了那麼久只有這個是進度超前不知道為什麼有一個進度超前的我不知道那這應該給你放煙火"},{"start":41044.557,"end":41067.391,"text":"不過你們一連對岡山那邊有另外一個工程的包商有沒有做一做跑路了下面的連保全也沒拿到錢買剛才的沒領到錢那個其實你們真的要申請他標到你們兩三個案子結果都辦公啊所以有時候這些廠商計分計等級真的不好的就不要用了現在是買方市場了啦好這個"},{"start":41069.012,"end":41089.683,"text":"同意照例改組決議改組決議好363案第363案為馬文君委員關切跑滑道戰備工程專案計劃其時程以副委員辦公室說明經同意下修凍結金額為1億元提出書面報告後使得凍失恭喜委員知道"},{"start":41090.263,"end":41094.026,"text":"這個部分很簡單他就是進度落後可是他現在都說114年1月他飛機就能交跑滑道的進度也可以趕上因為1月我們已經審完了啦他的期程都是講在那個時候我們不知道我們到年底就可以再看一次這樣子"},{"start":41107.775,"end":41114.082,"text":"對所以可是因為這個跑滑道如果花蓮延誤臺東就會延誤因為他不能兩個同時做他一定一個在施做完了以後他才可以做另外一個所以不管哪一個延誤他都會影響到東部的戰備執行所以這個部分我們也希望可以更謹慎的去盯他的進度"},{"start":41127.856,"end":41133.438,"text":"364案為馬文君委員針對載人公務車輛籌補計劃需求仍需澄清以副委員辦公室說明經同意下修凍結金額為原編約預算十分之一"},{"start":41150.123,"end":41177.917,"text":"364案凍結10%書面報告竟同意後使得凍支這個前面都已經一致性的原則了來365案365案為馬文軍委員關切國軍衛生部隊未請裝備整備後續處理情形以副委員辦公室說明竟同意下修凍結金額為原編列預算10分之一這好像跟剛才都一樣的啦對另外還有一個就是說這個之前"},{"start":41179.178,"end":41179.198,"text":"海軍統購（"},{"start":41195.737,"end":41209.987,"text":"是買一樣的增加數量還是要買不一樣的不一樣內容裡面的內容有些不一樣那為什麼海軍空軍會不一樣這是看一個掉到水裡一個掉到雲裡依照依照需求單位對我是覺得你們原來統購"},{"start":41211.388,"end":41211.849,"text":"三百六十六案"},{"start":41228.308,"end":41242.808,"text":"第366案為毛軍委員關切航氣學院教育設備執行項目以副委員辦公室說明經同意下修凍結金額為原編列預算十分之一提出書面報告後使得凍支公請委員指導"},{"start":41244.87,"end":41247.512,"text":"三百六十七案到三百六十九案為馬雲軍委員針對環保設施維護其中"},{"start":41263.366,"end":41272.873,"text":"機場噪音補助人力委員案 擁有疑問以副委員辦公室說明第367、368案 懇請同意併案凍結1793萬元提出書評報告後 使得凍支第369案 經同意預算照列 恭請委員知道你說凍結1793萬元"},{"start":41285.643,"end":41288.527,"text":"一千七百九十三萬一千七百九十三萬元我們367到369案就並案一來個案捏"},{"start":41306.625,"end":41309.93,"text":"以368案為主題案並按凍結1793萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍支"},{"start":41315.888,"end":41336.404,"text":"好 那各位同仁今天辛苦了時間是7點58分我們沒有到8點還是要不要多審一個憲兵到8點不用啦 我們今天就到這裡我們說審到空軍就審到空軍來好 那我們今天會議暫時休息明天早上9點繼續恢復繼續審查大家辛苦了 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16378","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16378","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6852d34adc683ae39a15e5a7d9476abbdb378081dad70f87c46aa17cb730c43d8e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算。(公務及基金預算)\n二、繼續審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度預算書案。\n 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6,"end":2040.249,"text":"行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員章嘉瑜專門委員基金預算處劉雅飛科長"},{"start":2052.34,"end":2077.73,"text":"本次會議討論事項已於113年12月9日說明及詢答完畢先作以下宣告本次審查公務預算案稅入科目以向為處理單位稅出科目以目為處理單位基金預算案以各基金為處理單位委員提案部分預算均照列本會召委"},{"start":2082.612,"end":2103.579,"text":"議決議審查預算提案時保留於第二輪之提案。提案委員不在現場者不在處理該項提案。本次審查會有關提案委員所提預算三檢案。經委員會審查通過者除提案委員特別聲明不同意外均同意勞動部的科目自行調整。"},{"start":2104.984,"end":2125.754,"text":"第四有關提案委員預算凍結案部分勞動部與各提案委員溝通結果如提案委員同意併案凍結者請勞動部與本次公務及基金預算全部審查完略前將各同意併案凍結之提案案號及科目會診後送主席台宣告後通過"},{"start":2127.535,"end":2142.107,"text":"上述委員提案凍結之預算,除特別聲明不同意者外,文字均統一為須向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告並經同意後使得凍結。"},{"start":2144.028,"end":2167.161,"text":"在本會審查中如提案委員口頭同意改為主決議及原案為主決議修正部分文字通過者請勞動部盡速與提案委員溝通後將書面修正文字送至主席台那現在開始審查請議事人員宣還有什麼程序發言喔好"},{"start":2177.591,"end":2199.525,"text":"主席好那今天要審勞動部的預算喔但是昨天審計長已經說明說救安基金呢已經有有5000多萬的不當將被剔除喔那依據審計法的第74條今審計機關決定因剔除或繳還之款項其未能依"},{"start":2200.345,"end":2215.276,"text":"一線稀數追還時如查明該機關長官或其授權代簽人及主辦會計人員對於簽證該項支出有故意或過失者因連帶負損害賠償責任。"},{"start":2217.998,"end":2235.379,"text":"那因為有這些狀況喔所以想要請問喔那這樣子今天要審查救安基金的勞動部要不要追長要不要提告那何時會追長何時會提告所以今天審查預算如果這些都不能釐清的話要所有的立委包括執政黨立委要如何審查"},{"start":2236.48,"end":2242.783,"text":"那如果審查不就是背書嗎那部長如果這個勞動部不追長的話依據政府採購法第110條的規定主機關審計官或檢察官就採購事件得為機關提起訴訟參加訴訟或上訴那也就是說政府採購法則是審計官可以代位求償"},{"start":2256.189,"end":2269.673,"text":"替勞動部提出訴訟追悔到時候被審計部帶回球場要怎麼自處所以我覺得今天有很多的救安基金的相關的問題都沒有釐清我認為今天救安基金不應該審查部長你要先做一個回應嗎好"},{"start":2297.133,"end":2297.295,"text":"主席"},{"start":2303.503,"end":2327.381,"text":"首先先謝謝廖委員的這個會議詢問其實我想從昨天沈議長在立法院的答詢出來以後其實我們第一時間就希望來跟審計部來了解就是沈議長講的這所謂的五千多萬的細節為何那當然其實沈議部也跟我們表達確實目前正式的報告還沒有出來"},{"start":2328.402,"end":2354.974,"text":"所以我想要因為這個包括這所謂5000多萬裡面每一項的狀態可能從審計部裡面的認定也都不太一樣就是說這5000多萬是聽起來我目前聽起來是很多個項目的甲種可是這5000多萬裡面可能每一項審計部對他的認定的狀態其實也不太一樣那"},{"start":2356.474,"end":2368.96,"text":"從勞動部的角度來說當然我們會希望趕快能夠跟審計部拿到正式的報告那我們再看到正式的報告裡面其實該怎麼處置我們就會怎麼處置我們就會依法來做相關的處置"},{"start":2370.151,"end":2397.753,"text":"那但因為現在我們都還沒有辦法拿到正式的報告來瞭解這裡面每一個細項到底審計部實際上面的看法是什麼所以剛剛六人當然希望說我們是不是可以提出來可是說實在這個是這個是審計部的裡面的內容那我們當然非常非常願意我想其實關於救安基金的問題我的態度都非常清楚我們絕對不會迴避問題事實上現在也一直在檢討問題"},{"start":2399.929,"end":2414.712,"text":"但對於審計部的內容為何那可以做我們會做什麼只要他的報告一出來那我們會立即來跟審計部來做相關的討論也許有些部分會補充說明也許部分真的"},{"start":2416.001,"end":2438.675,"text":"有不當的地方但我們也願意來做檢討跟後續依法的處置這部分我想是針對這部分昨天這個審計部在立法院的說明我想也想跟各位說其實我們也非常非常想知道裡面的內容因為有明確的內容我們才有辦法有明確後續的處理這樣子謝謝那個蘇清泉張偉"},{"start":2450.799,"end":2474.487,"text":"好謝謝主席我們很佩服我們洪部長大開大合該怎麼樣就怎麼樣我看你也是毫無保留因為也應該說不要有包袱那審計處居然這樣講了所以我們也大家討論的結果也希望不然救安基金就"},{"start":2475.467,"end":2475.827,"text":"月勤委員"},{"start":2502.021,"end":2530.214,"text":"今天事實上是審預算我認為應該因為所有的不管要凍結或者是要做什麼都在委員的手上是不是我們還是按照程序來走如果對救安基金有意見就是在審那個的時候全權的權利也在委員手上而不是因為過去的事情我知道過去的事情的確他有值得我想洪部長也非常的就像"},{"start":2531.094,"end":2543.761,"text":"蘇委員剛才講嘛紅部長事實上他也會針對過去針對去做處理可是我覺得那是省明年的預算114年所以我認為還是要照案我們現在的意思好程序來走以上六委員"},{"start":2556.178,"end":2572.277,"text":"首先我要再一次說明這個立法院不應該成為這個濫用公帑的共犯我們今天審了基本上就是在背書那你說是審明年的預算但是如果不是因為這一次謝宜榮的事件"},{"start":2573.246,"end":2593.506,"text":"有人在勞動部親身誰會抓出來說救安基金長期的濫用那現在有一大堆的東西都交代不清楚細節都沒有到底給誰誰拿多少錢到現在審計部昨天出來說5000多萬不當使用所以我想今天的預算應該就不要省了因為"},{"start":2594.247,"end":2610.129,"text":"包含不公開的送禮名單為什麽不敢公布現已榮現在送禮名單至今未公布這是基於什麽理由那麼依據公務機關透明性原則公務人員的送禮行為不僅涉及公共資源的使用還涉及政府施政的誠信問題"},{"start":2611.411,"end":2630.268,"text":"那既然送禮的行為合法正當公開名單應該無阻礙那我覺得這些東西應該都要有所公開喔那還是有其他考量再來今天的五千多萬雖然你說很多條很多細目但是就是因為這樣的事情我們更不應該選應該要把所有的事情釐清之後再來進入審查謝謝"},{"start":2632.779,"end":2652.428,"text":"我是不是講一下就是說我們今天審的是114年度的公務及基金預算那我是認為就像剛剛月勤委員講的如果大家對於基金的這個預算有意見的話其實是可以保留或者是凍結嘛那你就讓這個程序正常的走下去我覺得"},{"start":2654.008,"end":2679.583,"text":"我 我 我覺得是不要去影響到明年的這個預算吶吼 那 我們應該 大家有意見的話其實你就可以用凍結或者是刪減吶 不要說不審吶 不要說不審吶 你 你也當用凍結啊或者是刪減啊 不行 現在 現在的東西真的是太多疑點了 你不 不可以這樣 那你對於 現在有非常多東西也都沒有提供"},{"start":2691.725,"end":2708.431,"text":"如果你現在審了,現在立法院如果過去這些事情都不清楚了,都審了,那你就是代表,因為有太多的不明確的東西了,你怎麼有辦法保證我們每一個人都可以找到裡面有問題的地方,然後都有辦法凍結到,都有辦法簡列到。"},{"start":2709.144,"end":2735.25,"text":"那既然不能的情況之下你只要做了這個審查的動作你就是在幫勞動部背書就是在幫這些濫用公帑的人背書這就是我們立法院應該要有的態度而不是說我就去審未來的有意見你就擋就好啦我認為這個執政黨雖然是執政黨立委但是站在公益的角度站在立法院的角度不應該去審查今天的預算應該要盡速的把這些明細弄出來之後我們再進一步的去實質的審查謝謝"},{"start":2737.591,"end":2760.552,"text":"我是不是建議一下就是說有關基金的部分如果所有的委員覺得是有疑義的話是不是相關科目就做保留不要說不審啦就是相關的科目就全部保留也都可以啊那等到你們覺得說可以的話然後再來審就是說相關的科目保留賣工全部都不要審啦"},{"start":2765.281,"end":2770.031,"text":"我想廖偉祥這個想法是比較極端,他整個勞動部的預算都不要審了啦。"},{"start":2771.345,"end":2791.994,"text":"那另外我的看法是比較溫和一點點民進黨執政8年現在第9年那我們以前的這個救安廉基金就是像省這樣過山山一點點凍結一點點然後呢他科目都亂挪移嘛不然怎麼會有5000萬"},{"start":2794.867,"end":2817.503,"text":"不知道怎麼來的,不知道怎麼用的,譬如說我們審的都審表面的而已,他表面怎麼挪用我們也不知道。宣傳會一年比一年高,所以這個審計部自己都看出來了。所以另外一個我要請教部長,他說這個救安廉基金現在虧空200億,這是真的假的。部長,說虧空200億是怎麼來的?"},{"start":2824.035,"end":2832.801,"text":"說現在的救援安定基金一年幾百億又欠兩百億你是怎麼開的 我也看不出來我看你也三不五的款你來講一下不然的話這樣會開不下去請部長說明"},{"start":2847.078,"end":2874.68,"text":"那這個第一個是先謝謝書委員的詢問齁其實剛才書委員講那個虧200億的事情其實應該是當時在疫情期間齁那確實有一些這個因為經濟的狀況比較波動那也影響了一些就業的情況所以講了這個200億的狀況其實比較是疫情的期間那確實會比較需要就業安定基金來對整體的就業狀況做一些支持那這這狀況其實在我們很多失業率比較高的"},{"start":2875.841,"end":2895.818,"text":"時期都會動用比較多的就業安定基金來去協助勞工的就業或勞工這個面對可能失業的問題的這個狀況比較是就剛才這個講200多億的情況的話比較是針對這部分所以你那個疫情的8400億8400億你們就有哪一些來撥補剛剛我講的那個200多億的虧損是不是這樣"},{"start":2907.071,"end":2908.737,"text":"所以你的虧損還是掛在那裡嗎?"},{"start":2912.005,"end":2912.766,"text":"所以你現在就安定基金"},{"start":2937.765,"end":2938.165,"text":"所以你現在還有400億的決議在裡面。 是。"},{"start":2966.55,"end":2973.719,"text":"好,我們來瞧一下啦,好看不然我們先休息五分鐘啦,大家討論一下好不好"},{"start":4139.417,"end":4167.029,"text":"那我在這邊做一個宣布今天我們就審這個勞動部的這個主管的公務預算還有勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度預算書的科目金額及委員的提案那基金預算的部分我們則期再審好啊你剛剛不是已經說過了嗎你要再說一次"},{"start":4168.277,"end":4195.005,"text":"好好那那你再說一次來來來再說一次這是我們剛剛提案說明案有這個有鑒於勞動部喔就業安定基金的弊端重生那也坐實之前的前部長喔這個潘氏維離職的時候就有說過就業安定基金就勞動部的小金庫那也指出"},{"start":4195.945,"end":4219.102,"text":"每期民為公卻以私利為目的要不是這一次這個謝玉榮的事件其實國人才真的看見了百萬裝潢休息室舉辦前部長許明春的個人演唱會拍個人沙龍照買禮盒向上管理招挪用買網軍等爭議而且30年來收取近千億"},{"start":4220.182,"end":4235.806,"text":"卻未公布支出明細黑幕重重那麼今天審計部長陳瑞敏也證實就該基金發現用途不符金額近達5000多萬那將要求如何收回那採購異常會移送減掉為近"},{"start":4239.407,"end":4265.212,"text":"職責會送至監察院顯見這件事情滋事體大那所有的國人都希望能夠公開透明讓國會嚴格的監督公堂不再虛職再者114年來賴政府總預算已經超過3兆元公務預算應該也更更可以充分的如實編列以支持相關業務運作而非繼續吸血救安基金而非繼續吸血救安基金"},{"start":4266.195,"end":4287.194,"text":"那麼其實剛剛也有講到說硬要進去審會發生什麼問題發生的問題就是我們在幫這樣子的預算做背書過去幾年來每一屆大家都說立法委員非常可以監督到非常的詳細非常嚴格的審查可是從結果來看就是沒辦法因為"},{"start":4287.974,"end":4303.848,"text":"黑幕重重所以今天審查勞動部所屬的這個預算之際勞動部至今未能夠對外市民近5年救安基金的相關細目且相關的政風會計人員是否有協助違法貪毒的行為仍有待釐清"},{"start":4304.528,"end":4329.832,"text":"所以為了建立救安基金相關支用標準避免繼續濫用所以要求暫緩今天有關勞動部114年基金預算之處理待檢討報告送出之後交叉比對審計部所做的審核報告經社會福利及衛生環境委員會之委員同意後使得進行勞動部基金預算之處理是否有當進行公決?謝謝那個劉建國委員"},{"start":4340.322,"end":4368.518,"text":"好謝謝主席各位我們委員會所有同仁因為剛剛有協商基本上就是對公務一上我們先來進行那基金的部分大家覺得有爭議的就是安定基金那後來要變成把所有的基金都擱置我想這個也都沒有意見但是我必須要很沉重的來跟各位做一個說明省立算是我們立法院的職權"},{"start":4370.212,"end":4389.922,"text":"他的基金不管哪一個基金就案例基金有問題就案例基金有問題那我想執政黨的委員也罵得非常的兇但是但是審預算跟他在113年度的基金執行的狀態出了問題這是兩件事情這絕對是兩件事情"},{"start":4393.686,"end":4399.068,"text":"我必須要我必須要跟各位提醒這件事情然後如果今天在審預算過程裡面我們還要去負擔他在執行出的狀況"},{"start":4405.38,"end":4424.347,"text":"這個不是我們立委能夠去承載的我們可以監督我們可以在審預算裡面把他的所有的問題毛病甚至以揪出來甚至以來做這個114跟113的相關的對照這個都可以我們也是把這問題在審查過程裡面把它瞭解的更透徹"},{"start":4425.367,"end":4446.26,"text":"因為一般預算通過之後出了問題是在執行面不是在審查面所以我是再度這樣做一個提醒最後我是覺得說我們Focus如果是在介入安地基金那現在已經講好所有基金要暫時去做擱置先審查過預算我沒有意見我也接受但是我是要提醒各位說在審預算審基金的這個處理的方式的過程裡面"},{"start":4451.2,"end":4456.851,"text":"我們還是我們有我們立法委員該該處理的這樣的一個責任存在謝謝謝謝好呃王玉明委員"},{"start":4469.107,"end":4483.959,"text":"主席各位人大家好我想昨天有關於審計部部長他自己親自已經說出來我們的救安基金竟然違法使用目前目前清算出來的至少已經超過5000萬"},{"start":4486.1,"end":4506.081,"text":"違法濫用已經超過五千萬那如果再往前追溯再查得更仔細不曉得整個救安基金被濫用的程度有多麼的嚴重跟離譜所以今天再審勞動部的預算再審救安基金今天國民黨提出來這個提案非常的有正當性"},{"start":4507.362,"end":4522.455,"text":"當救安基金的問題這麼大我們也要進一步懷疑那其他基金的使用有沒有同時存在弊端所以今天我們的要求我覺得訴求正當非常的合理有關於基金的審查今天就是不予處理"},{"start":4523.856,"end":4548.305,"text":"指審勞動部部本部的預算而剛剛劉委員我非常尊重他他是未完委員會非常資深的委員但是有一點我不能同意就是說現在在審查的跟過去的是沒有關係當然有關係如果在委員會我們未來針對基金的審查我們一筆一筆都非常仔細而嚴謹"},{"start":4550.066,"end":4569.753,"text":"的去監督甚至包括現在被揭露出來的救安基金的這些亂象我們要求主管機關你每一個預算使用都要清清楚楚的交代跟說明當然被他們濫用的機會就會降低就會減少嘛我覺得過去是授權太大了信任"},{"start":4571.053,"end":4589.586,"text":"勞動部結果被許明春部長這樣子濫用立法院有監督之責當我們的監督是更仔細是更嚴格當然有一些部長想要上下其手想要濫用他的預算的空間就越小所以這絕對是聯動跟相關的"},{"start":4592.108,"end":4593.79,"text":"所以請召委通過這樣的一個提案我覺得這個是幫全民勘警人民的納稅錢跟荷包我們不允許在未還委員會審查通過的預算本來好意是讓"},{"start":4608.73,"end":4622.619,"text":"這個行政部門可以有這個空間然後他在預算各項執行的時候可以更順利結果立法院的授權變成是他濫用的源頭這個就就絕對不允許所以一定是加嚴審查嚴格審查未來"},{"start":4626.361,"end":4626.521,"text":"陳金輝委員"},{"start":4660.663,"end":4678.054,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位官員大家早安針對救安基金這幾個禮拜的爭議國人其實抱有非常多的疑慮所以我們更應該要展現我們監督的力量尤其是昨天審計部部長都親自開口了我們有勞動部的記者會一場是100到200萬的"},{"start":4681.716,"end":4698.999,"text":"然後還有你都下了媒體的預算還下了廣告結果你的點擊率是這麼的差你剪一支宣傳影片是幾十萬這些東西全部都沒有拿出來檢討之後你基金你要用媒體宣傳可以你告訴我你預計用多少錢做多少點擊率我們才願意讓你花這筆錢不然全國人民覺得這個救安基金是從"},{"start":4707.921,"end":4714.005,"text":"很辛苦的家庭裡面拿出來的一筆一筆拿出來的錢居然是這樣被亂花連紅部長都說有一個辦公室裝修費2000多萬完全沒有辦法想像有一個南部的分署光是弄那個外牆有一個餐廳的外牆也2000多萬請問你是去哪裡找這些承包商的"},{"start":4730.054,"end":4750.36,"text":"很誇張啊人民完全看不下去最大的重點是剛剛劉建國委員說我們就是應該扮演監督的角色審預算但是過去兩位說完不好意思劉建國委員還有洪森漢前委員你們就在這裡搞了8個會期那你們現在要為現在的中央基金的PM來負責嗎你沒有在這裡背話他有啦他有啦"},{"start":4756.144,"end":4762.811,"text":"你這裡有幾個會期?你有兩個會期有兩個會期在這裡兩個會期在這裡"},{"start":4770.452,"end":4797.267,"text":"兩個會期在這裡上次我已經質詢過紅部長了110年到114年其實媒體的費用救安基金媒體的費用是節節往上喔可是他拿不出KPI來解釋為什麼媒體的費用是節節往上所以我也呼應剛剛王玉敏委員跟廖偉祥委員所述的我覺得全部的基金都是應該要來嚴審而且"},{"start":4799.868,"end":4807.433,"text":"之前您有跟我溝通過您認為以前就是因為稍微沾上邊就可以申請那現在審計部又說要追回這筆錢但是每一筆錢他簽章的人有這麼的多耶我們到底要怎麼追您有沒有什麼方法可以告訴我們您要怎麼幫我們追回這筆錢是誰要出在這個蓋章的過程中誰要來出這五千萬"},{"start":4823.644,"end":4842.414,"text":"所以這些這個檢討報告未來要怎麼審還有你要怎麼編列哪一些金額裡面你覺得可以接受他是有效的你要清清楚楚的告訴我們我們才審這個預算嘛謝謝大家謝謝那這個我跟妳抱歉一下是兩個會期不好意思真的很不好意思好圖圈級委員"},{"start":4851.633,"end":4879.529,"text":"好那今天針對勞動部的預算大家也知道審計部已經知道說針對我們救安基金5000多萬用途不明的部分那尤其我們立法院我們今天審這勞動部的預算我們也要對全民負責這全部都是人民的納稅人的錢就像剛剛我們洪部長自己有講審計部針對這部分用途不明的部分還不是很明確那我們也希望針對這些科目"},{"start":4880.009,"end":4899.706,"text":"用途的部分一定要能夠明瞭不然我們這個救安基金到底要怎麼去審而且這麼多的錢5000多萬甚至有可能只是冰山一角而且我們知道我們之前我們洪部長也是我們未還委員那這一部分大家也都是在嚴審可是今天如果不是審計部不是謝義榮的事件這樣子爆發"},{"start":4902.788,"end":4917.879,"text":"我們怎麼知道這救安基金被濫用到這種程度連科目用途都不明試問這個預算我們到底要怎麼審下去我們要對全民負責所以這部分我覺得救安基金的部分今天真的是不適宜再審而且"},{"start":4919.6,"end":4939.466,"text":"之前也向我們勞動部索取我們20週年音樂會那時候王一鳴部長在問的時候說這個點閱率很低結果我們的黃市長說這個點閱率很高有7萬多次所以我特別有說這7萬多次每個月的點閱率是怎麼樣當然後來洪部長也有"},{"start":4940.106,"end":4964.426,"text":"因為我們有爭取那洪部長也確實來提供所以針對這個資料我們看過你看在11月以前這個事件還沒有爆發的時候總共八支影片點閱率只有五千多次可是事件爆發之後馬上到七萬八千多次所以黃師長我們勞動部這引以至豪的點閱率七萬多次"},{"start":4965.186,"end":4983.556,"text":"是這個醜聞弊案爆發之後大家才去看欸怎麼有這個音樂會欸大家很想了解所以才上去看的點閱率並不是之前你們這性皮20週年推廣大家去看欸總共前面只有5000多次花了400多萬那我們每個點閱率"},{"start":4985.177,"end":5006.383,"text":"一次大概就要花了800塊所以這是非常恐怖的針對這個部分就應該就要好好的去檢討所以針對我們勞動部救安基金的部分我們一定要擇期再審為了看緊我們人民納稅人的荷包我們等審計部把這些用途科目能夠說清楚之後我們再來嚴審謝謝"},{"start":5008.595,"end":5020.593,"text":"好,我們剛剛在那個這個底下的時候有跟所有委員有做一個協商就是我們今天這個基金的部分就是不審啦好,那劉委員還要再講嗎?"},{"start":5022.661,"end":5042.854,"text":"就這樣嗎?今天就是只有審公務預算還有那個財團法人職業災害預算及重建中心的預算基金的部分就是擇期再審我們現在是不是開始進行公務預算沒有,宣讀是嗎?等一下"},{"start":5048.615,"end":5048.735,"text":"我剛剛已經那個"},{"start":5064.522,"end":5089.613,"text":"好,那現在開始審查,請議事人員宣讀勞動部主管公務及勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預算及重建中心114年度預算書案之科目金額及委員提案現在開始宣讀宣讀114年度中央政府總預算案勞動部主管收支部分科目金額一稅務部分第二款"},{"start":5091.028,"end":5096.454,"text":"罰款及賠償收入第152項勞動部250萬元第153項勞工保險局2億3874萬8千元第154項勞動力發展署及所屬29萬9千元第155項職業安全衛生署2億0500萬元"},{"start":5111.07,"end":5120.696,"text":"第156項勞動基金運用局無列數第157項勞動及職業安全衛生研究所30萬元第三款規費收入第124項勞動部"},{"start":5122.799,"end":5147.257,"text":"二千四百四十萬八千元第一百二十五項勞工保險局二千元第一百二十六項勞動力發展署及所屬一億六千九百五十三萬六千元第一二七項職業安全衛生署三億四千五百七十七萬六千元第四款財產收入第一六五項勞動部九十四萬六千元第一六六項勞工保險局二十四萬五千元第一六七項"},{"start":5148.278,"end":5154.501,"text":"勞動力發展署及所屬827萬元、第168項職業安全衛生署28000元、第169項勞動基金運用局6000元、第170項勞動及職業安全衛生研究所60萬元、第7款其他收入、第163項勞動部554000元、第164項勞工保險局676000元、第165項"},{"start":5172.389,"end":5188.98,"text":"勞動力發展署及所屬130萬2千元,第166項。職業安全衛生署25萬4千元,第167項。勞動基金運用局8千元,第168項。勞動及職業安全衛生研究所6萬元。二、稅出部分第15款勞動部主管第一項。勞動部"},{"start":5191.277,"end":5210.288,"text":"二千八百五十九億六千九百五十六萬九千元第一幕勞動保險業務二千八百五十二億二千七百三十三萬四千元第二幕一般行政五億二千九百零九萬七千元第三幕綜合規劃業務一千一百五十五萬二千元"},{"start":5212.318,"end":5214.799,"text":"勞動關係業務6161萬元勞動福祉退休業務29147000元勞動條件及就業平等業務97147000元勞動法務業務8177000元一般建築及設備126萬元"},{"start":5232.748,"end":5242.592,"text":"第九目第一項預備金424萬5千元第二項勞工保險局37億1206萬2千元第一目一般行政29億2706萬2千元第二目保險業務6億5421萬5千元第三目一般建築及設備27萬元第四目第一預備金360萬元"},{"start":5254.938,"end":5277.316,"text":"第五目退休金業務一億二千六百九十一萬五千元第三項勞動力發展所及所屬十七億三千九百零零三萬六千元第一目一般行政三億五千七百六十二萬一千元第二目勞動力發展業務二億零九十萬二千元第三目分屬管理十億七千七百七十二萬一千元"},{"start":5277.916,"end":5298.05,"text":"第4目技能檢定中心管理9905萬1千元第5目一般建築及設備91萬元第6目第一預備金283萬1千元第4項職業安全衛生署8億9308萬9千元第一目職業安全衛生科技發展業務5列數第二目一般行政"},{"start":5298.55,"end":5324.693,"text":"五億二千零七十萬三千元,第三目職業安全衛生業務三億七千一百四八萬六千元,第四目一般建築及設備五列數,第五目第一預備金九十萬元,第五項勞動基金運用局二億四千六百八十六萬四千元,第一目一般行政二億三千四百二十三萬六千元,第二目基金運用業務一千二百五十三萬八千元,第三目第一預備金九萬元,"},{"start":5325.834,"end":5334.159,"text":"六、勞動及職業安全衛生研究所3億2107萬3千元一、一般行政1億0427萬1千元二、勞動及職業安全衛生研究2億1173萬4千元三、一般建築及設備496萬8千元四、第一預備金10萬元"},{"start":5348.307,"end":5367.699,"text":"繼續宣讀委員提案會整表一、陳昭芝等勞動部凍結九千萬元第二至第七項勞動保險業務、羊藥等檢列一百萬元凍結一百萬元曾經為廖偉祥陳昭芝凍結二十分之七、蘇慶賢翁小林等凍結一千萬元、寧月晴等"},{"start":5369.24,"end":5382.076,"text":"凍結50萬元、完整序等凍結10萬元八、陳金輝、廖偉強、陳昭芝就業保險業務檢列10分之3凍結10分之3九、王玉敏等科目同地8案凍結1億元十、盧先英等就業保險業務費檢列50萬元十一、蘇清泉等"},{"start":5386.522,"end":5402.311,"text":"就業保險業務獎補助費凍結十分之一十二、邱振軍、廖偉強、盧先一、柯慕童十一案凍結五十萬元十三、陳金輝、廖偉強、陳昭芝、閻毅、陳寶及現金給付業務檢列十分之一凍結五分之一十四、圖全集等"},{"start":5402.771,"end":5422.842,"text":"科木桐十三案、凍結十分之一、蘇五、盧憲一等現金給付業務費、減劣五十萬元十六、陳金輝、廖偉祥、陳昭芝、嚴毅勞工職業災害保險業務、減劣二十分之一、凍結二十分之三十七、陳金輝、廖偉祥、陳昭芝、保險監理業務、減劣二十分之一、凍結五分之一"},{"start":5424.423,"end":5448.699,"text":"十八曾經會廖偉祥陳昭芝人員維持檢列二十分之一凍結二十分之三十九曾經會廖偉祥陳昭芝基本行政工作維持檢列二十分之一凍結二十分之三二十盧憲一等基本行政工作維持業務費檢列一千萬元二十一輸清權等基本行政工作維持水電費檢列三十萬元凍結十分之一"},{"start":5449.54,"end":5477.52,"text":"第二十二至二十九案基本行政工作維持特別費蘇清泉等檢列一百一十萬元凍結十分之一突圈機等檢列三十萬元蘇清泉翁小林等檢列二十三萬八千元陳昭芝等全數凍結陳昭芝等凍結五分之一突圈機等凍結十分之一三十蘇清泉翁小林等辦公大樓水電管理費檢列一百一十萬元凍結一百一十萬元"},{"start":5479.889,"end":5495.816,"text":"動節100萬元、三十一廖偉祥等科木童三十案檢列100萬元、動節100萬元、三十二蘇慶泉等政府首展長官水電管理費檢列15萬4千元、動節4萬元、三十三蘇慶泉翁小林等"},{"start":5496.616,"end":5522.433,"text":"消耗品、非消耗品及處理國會聯繫事務等檢列400萬元、凍結100萬元三十四、廖偉祥等科目同33案檢列100萬元、凍結100萬元三十五、陳金輝、廖偉祥、陳昭芝統計業務管理檢列20分之1、凍結5分之1三十六、陳金輝、廖偉祥、陳昭芝勞動資訊業務凍結20分之3三十七、廖偉祥等勞動資訊業務費全數凍結"},{"start":5525.655,"end":5532.063,"text":"第38至41案設備及投資蘇清泉翁曉林等檢列50萬元凍結50萬元蘇清泉等檢列50萬元凍結1⅓廖偉強等檢列10萬元凍結100萬元秋生君廖偉強盧憲一凍結100萬元"},{"start":5542.697,"end":5569.255,"text":"第42至45案綜合規劃業務王育民等檢列50萬元、蘇清泉等凍結二分之一、王振旭、陳培宇等凍結50萬元、王振旭等凍結10萬元46、陳金輝、廖偉祥、陳昭芝策劃政策推展檢列二十分之三、凍結二十分之三47、廖偉祥、柯木桐46案凍結十分之一48、蘇清泉等策劃政策推展業務費凍結50萬元第49至52案"},{"start":5572.817,"end":5581.341,"text":"媒體宣導資料製作、脫波及刊登等所需業務費,蘇清泉翁小林等檢列31萬元,凍結10萬元,蘇清泉等檢列31萬元,凍結10分之一,廖偉強等檢列30萬元,凍結30萬元,"},{"start":5589.164,"end":5601.698,"text":"五十三、陳金輝、廖瑋祥、陳昭芝、強化計畫管考、簡列十分之一、凍結二十分之三五十四、廖瑋祥、柯木桐五十三案、凍結十分之一五十五、廖瑋祥、強化計畫管考、業務費、簡列三十萬元"},{"start":5604.601,"end":5624.168,"text":"56至58案強化人力資源規劃、糧藥等減劣50萬元、凍結100萬元。曾經輝、廖偉祥、陳昭芝減劣十分之一、凍結五分之一、劉建國等凍結十分之一。59、林月琴、鍾嘉斌等強化人力資源規劃、一般事務費、凍結五分之一。60、曾經輝、廖偉祥、陳昭芝強化國際事務、凍結十分之三。61、廖偉祥強化國際事務業務費減劣30萬元。"},{"start":5631.931,"end":5650.181,"text":"62、邱振軍、廖偉強、盧憲一、大陸地區旅費全數檢列63、廖偉強等、柯木桐62案全數凍結64、蘇清泉等參加兩岸勞動事務研討會所需業務費檢列5萬元65、陳金威、廖偉強、陳昭芝因應貿易自由化之政策規劃協調"},{"start":5652.003,"end":5660.439,"text":"與勞工支持服務凍結二十分之三、六十六如現一等因應貿易自由化之政策規劃協調與勞工支持服務業務費檢列五十萬元。"},{"start":5665.373,"end":5672.954,"text":"67至74案勞動關係業務、王毓民等凍結600萬元、突圈機等凍結二十分之一、黃秀帆等凍結100萬元、林月群、范雲等凍結100萬元、林月琴等凍結50萬元、完正旭等凍結10萬元、75至78案促進工會組織自由化洋藥等檢列100萬元、凍結100萬元、陳昭芝等凍結十分之一、邱振軍、廖偉翔、盧憲英等"},{"start":5693.078,"end":5693.438,"text":"凍結100萬元凍結100萬元凍結100萬元凍結10分之一"},{"start":5717.549,"end":5745.178,"text":"82 劉建國等推動派遣勞工保護法制檢列十萬元凍結十分之一83 陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之推動派遣勞工保護法制國外旅費檢列二分之一凍結二分之一84 陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之建立迅速有效勞資正義處理機制凍結十分之三85 王振旭賴慧媛等柯木桐八十四案凍結五百萬元86 陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之健全不當"},{"start":5746.558,"end":5759.75,"text":"勞動行為裁決機制凍結五分之一87陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭芝強化勞資兌換凍結十分之一88廖偉祥等強化勞資兌換業務費凍結十分之一89至91案穩定勞資關係養藥等檢列五十萬元凍結五十萬元劉建國等檢列五十萬元陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭芝凍結五分之一92盧憲一等穩定勞資關係業務費檢列五十萬元"},{"start":5776.815,"end":5782.6,"text":"939395案勞動福祉退休業務、養藥等檢列50萬元、凍結50萬元、完整訓練賴會員等凍結500萬元、完整序等凍結10萬元、96、劉建國等改善勞工生活凍結100萬元、97、陳金輝、廖偉強、陳昭芝等"},{"start":5793.03,"end":5801.98,"text":"科木童96案凍結五分之二98曾經會廖偉強成招資資訊服務費凍結十分之三99曾經會廖偉強成招資側變勞工服務凍結十分之三100劉建國等科木童99案凍結一百萬元101"},{"start":5813.252,"end":5818.814,"text":"陳盈等落實勞工退休制度檢列50萬元。 102陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之柯木桐101案凍結1⁴。 103陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之勞動基金監理凍結2⁵。 104陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之"},{"start":5830.458,"end":5856.255,"text":"提升勞工福祉凍結二分之一105至109案勞動條件及就業平等業務凸選機等凍結十分之一王玉明等凍結九百萬元王振旭、楊耀、林月琴凍結一百萬元林月琴等凍結五十萬元王振旭等凍結十萬元110陳金輝、廖偉祥、陳昭芝保障勞工法定權益凍結五分之一111廖偉祥等柯木桐110案"},{"start":5858.256,"end":5886.033,"text":"凍結十分之一。 112曾經會廖偉強陳昭之特別保護法自治落實凍結五分之一。 113廖偉強等柯木桐112案凍結十分之一。 114曾經會廖偉強陳昭之健全合理工時制度凍結十分之三。 115廖偉強等柯木桐114案凍結十分之一。 116至124案落實就業平等劉建國等檢列一百萬元凍結一百萬元。"},{"start":5886.793,"end":5900.721,"text":"楊耀等、簡列100萬元、凍結100萬元、陳金威、廖偉祥、陳昭芝、凍結四分之一、林淑芬等、凍結十分之一、林月琴、范雲等、凍結600萬元、林月琴、范雲等、凍結100萬元、王振旭、陳培宇等、凍結100萬元。"},{"start":5902.262,"end":5920.579,"text":"一二五廖偉祥等落實就業平等業務費凍結二十分之一一二六至一二九案落實職產性騷擾繁殖機制燃藥等檢列五十萬元凍結五十萬元陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之凍結四分之一林月琴范雲等凍結一百萬元邱振軍廖偉祥盧憲一凍結五十萬元"},{"start":5922.802,"end":5934.534,"text":"130至132案勞動法務業務王月明等凍結一百萬元李瑞琴范雲等凍結一百萬元突圈機等凍結二十分之一133陳寅等勞動法制檢列一百萬元134陳金輝廖偉強陳昭之勞動法制凍結四分之一"},{"start":5942.05,"end":5963.776,"text":"135至137案書院審議燃料等檢列五十萬元凍結五十萬元劉建國等凍結一百萬元陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭芝凍結二十分之三138陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭芝交通及運輸設備全數凍結主決議139蘇清泉圖泉及邱正軍委員提案140蘇清泉盧憲一王一鳴委員提案141蘇清泉圖泉及邱正軍委員提案"},{"start":5973.481,"end":5990.872,"text":"142、143蘇清泉、盧憲一、王一鳴委員提案144至151、王振旭等委員提案152、陳寅等委員提案153、林月琴、范雲等委員提案154、155、王振旭、張雅琳等委員提案158至160"},{"start":5993.36,"end":6001.555,"text":"劉建國、蘇巧慧等委員提案、156、157、王振旭、陳培宜等委員提案、161、劉建國、鍾嘉斌等委員提案、"},{"start":6003.631,"end":6022.285,"text":"162蘇金璇翁曉琳等媒體政策及業務宣導費減列399萬7千元,凍結100萬元。 163王玉明等科目同162案減列200萬元。 164陳慶輝廖偉祥陳昭之一般行政減列10分之1凍結5分之1。 165王玉明等一般行政凍結2000萬元。"},{"start":6024.267,"end":6027.97,"text":"166至168案基本行政工作維持、洋藥等檢列100萬元、凍結100萬元、林淑芬等凍結3000萬元、劉建國等凍結300萬元"},{"start":6035.694,"end":6055.257,"text":"一六九至一七二基本行政工作維持水電費蘇清泉等檢列五百三十萬元凍結十分之一陳昭芝等檢列五百萬元蘇清蘇清泉翁小林等檢列三百七十二萬元凍結一百萬元廖偉祥等檢列三百萬元凍結一百萬元一七三蘇清泉等"},{"start":6056.118,"end":6063.941,"text":"委託辦理廣播媒體政策及業務宣導費減列30萬元174蘇清泉等媒體政策及業務宣導費減列210萬元175陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭芝資訊業務凍結四分之一176蘇清泉等柯木桐175案凍結十分之一177盧憲一等資訊服務費減列5000萬元178"},{"start":6080.808,"end":6086.994,"text":"邱振軍、廖偉強、盧憲一勞動保障及聯金服務躍升計劃凍結500萬元、179黃秀帆等保險業務凍結1000萬元、180至182案企劃管理業務、劉建國等檢列100萬元、陳金輝、廖偉強、陳昭芝凍結五分之一、完整需待會員等檢列500萬元、"},{"start":6103.089,"end":6116.254,"text":"183至185計劃管理業務費如先一等檢列50萬元廖偉祥等凍結三二十分之三廖偉祥等凍結十分之一186申請權等各項說明會及臉書宣導製作等相關媒體經費檢列150萬元187洋藥等納保業務檢列100萬元凍結100萬元188至191"},{"start":6126.479,"end":6130.584,"text":"保費業務、洋藥等檢列100萬元、凍結100萬元、有建國等檢列100萬元、凍結100萬元、曾經會廖偉祥、陳昭芝、凍結四分之一、完整區域洋藥、林月琴、凍結10萬元、"},{"start":6140.469,"end":6149.334,"text":"1922書金權盧憲一、王玉敏、保費業務獎補助費、凍結十分之一193邱振軍、廖偉強、盧憲一、柯木桐1922案、凍結五百萬元194、195職業災害給付業務、羊藥等檢列一百萬元、凍結一百萬元、成癮等檢列一百萬元、環政區羊藥林月琴、凍結十萬元197至200人民保險業務、廖偉強等凍結二百萬元"},{"start":6169.887,"end":6179.975,"text":"蘇清泉、翁曉琳等凍結200萬元、蘇清泉等凍結十分之一、邱振軍、廖偉強、盧倩依凍結50萬元、 201完整會吳立法等農民保險業務費凍結五分之一、202邱振軍、廖偉強、盧倩依、農民職業災害保險業務凍結100萬元、203完整會賴會員等柯木桐202案凍結100萬元、主決議204完整會吳立法等委員提案、"},{"start":6200.322,"end":6221.819,"text":"二百零五至二百零八案勞動力發展署及所屬施信權等檢列三百萬元凍結十分之一邱振軍廖偉強盧憲一凍結一千萬元黃秀帆等凍結一千萬元陳昭芝等凍結一百萬元二零九劉建國等一般行政檢列一百萬元凍結五百萬元二一零王一鳴等"},{"start":6222.6,"end":6239.919,"text":"基本行政工作維持檢列一百萬元凍結二百萬元二一一蘇清泉等基本行政工作維持水電費檢列八萬元凍結十分之一二一二陳昭芝等柯木桐二一一案檢列八萬元二一三陳金輝廖偉祥"},{"start":6240.86,"end":6269.889,"text":"陳昭芝一般事務費檢列一百萬元214至216基本行政工作維持特別費圖圈機等檢列九萬元圖圈機等凍結五分之一銀書分等凍結五分之一217至225勞動力發展業務陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭芝凍結十分之一完整序代會員等凍結一千萬元蘇金璿翁曉林等凍結五百萬元陳昭芝等凍結二百萬元林月琴等凍結五十萬元"},{"start":6271.172,"end":6296.038,"text":"二二六案委員蘇清泉翁曉林等人提案勞動力發展業務綜合規劃凍結一百萬元二二七案委員蘇清泉等人提案科牧童二二六案凍結五十萬元二二八案委員盧憲義等人提案重要業務效益評估及專案管考委辦費減列四十萬元二二九案委員邱振軍廖偉祥盧憲義提案勞動力發展業務訓練發展凍結十萬元二三零案委員廖偉祥等人提案推展職業訓練發展業務凍結十分之一二三一案"},{"start":6298.999,"end":6309.231,"text":"委員盧憲怡等人提案因應貿易自由化就業發展及協助業務業務費減列50萬元232案委員王振旭、吳立華等人提案科牧童231案凍結二十分之一"},{"start":6310.495,"end":6335.834,"text":"二、三、三案委員秋振均、廖偉祥、盧仙怡提案就業服務凍結500萬元二、三、四案委員蘇清泉等人提案推動並督導就業服務業務減列2萬元凍結十分之一二、三、五案委員王振旭、吳立華等人提案因應貿易自由化就業發展及協助業務凍結十分之一二、三、六案委員盧仙怡等人提案科牧童二、三、五案向下業務費減列30萬元二、三、七案委員陳昭志等人提案"},{"start":6336.654,"end":6354.263,"text":"賭注辦理就業保險業務所需行政事務費凍結十分之一238案委員蘇清泉等人提案柯木桐237案凍結十分之一239案委員廖偉祥等人提案柯木桐237案凍結十分之一240案委員邱振軍廖偉祥如現已提案身心障礙者及特定對象"},{"start":6356.024,"end":6384.524,"text":"業務凍結一百萬元二四一案委員盧憲宜等人提案身心障礙者及特定對象就業促進工作業務費減列二十萬元二四二案委員廖偉祥等人提案補助就業安定基金辦理促進特定對象及就業弱勢者就業計劃凍結五分之一二四三案委員陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之提案柯木桐二四二案向下獎補助費對特種基金之補助凍結十分之一二四四案委員邱戰軍廖偉祥盧憲宜提案"},{"start":6384.984,"end":6405.143,"text":"因應貿易自由化就業發展及協助業務凍結10萬元二四五至二四六案委委員林月琴等人提案科目均為分屬管理各凍結50萬元二四七案委員王振旭、楊耀、林月琴提案包含北基、夷花金馬、桃竹苗、中張頭、雲嘉南、高屏、澎東分屬管理向下辦理之前"},{"start":6405.963,"end":6432.75,"text":"訓練之業務費凍結10萬元二、四、八案委員王玉明等人提案北基宜花金馬分署管理檢列500萬元凍結1000萬元二、四、九案委員林淑芬等人提案北基宜花金馬分署管理基本行政工作維持凍結四分之一二、五、零案委員廖偉祥等人提案柯木桐二、四、九案向下特別費全數凍結二、五、一案委員邱振軍廖偉祥如先一提案北基宜花金馬分署管理"},{"start":6433.09,"end":6455.946,"text":"因應貿易自由化就業發展及協助業務凍結一百萬元二五二案委員蘇清泉等人提案逃逐苗分屬管理基本行政工作維持水電費減列一百一十萬元凍結十分之一二五三案委員陳昭芝等人提案科目同二五二案減列一百萬元二五四案委員王振旭吳立華等人提案逃逐苗分屬管理辦理值錢訓練業務費"},{"start":6458.107,"end":6481.101,"text":"動結200萬元二五五案委員邱振均、廖偉翔、盧仙怡提案逃逐苗分屬管理因應貿易自由化就業發展及協助業務動結100萬元二五六案委員邱振均、廖偉翔、盧仙怡提案中章投分屬管理因應貿易自由化就業發展及協助業務動結100萬元二五七案委員廖偉翔等人提案柯木桐二五六案向下業務費動結100萬元"},{"start":6484.332,"end":6510.957,"text":"二五八案委員蘇清泉等人提案雲嘉南分屬管理基本行政工作維持水電費檢列40萬元凍結十分之一二五九案委員陳昭志等人提案柯木桐二五八案檢列10萬元二六零案委員王振旭代委員等人提案雲嘉南分屬管理因應貿易自由化就業發展及協助業務凍結1000萬元二六一案委員邱振軍廖偉祥盧仙怡提案柯木桐二六零案凍結100萬元"},{"start":6512.657,"end":6536.108,"text":"二六二案委員蘇清泉等人提案高屏蓬東分署管理基本行政工作維持水電費減列45萬元凍結十分之一二六三案委員陳昭志等人提案柯木桐二六二案減列30萬元二六四案委員邱振軍廖韋祥盧憲一提案高屏蓬東分署管理因應貿易自由化就業發展及協助業務凍結100萬元二六五案委員蘇清泉等人提案"},{"start":6536.648,"end":6553.055,"text":"技能檢定中心管理基本行政工作維持水電費檢列30萬元凍結十分之一266案委員陳昭志等人提案柯木桐265案檢列20萬元267案委員陳金輝廖韋翔陳昭志提案主決議268案委員王振旭等人提案主決議"},{"start":6554.115,"end":6563.44,"text":"職業安全衛生署269案委員王振旭賴會員等人提案職業安全衛生署凍結1000萬元270案委員黃秀芳等人提案科目同269案凍結1000萬元271案委員林月琴等人提案科目同269案凍結50萬元"},{"start":6570.803,"end":6597.078,"text":"二七二案委員李淑芬等人提案一般行政基本行政工作維持凍結十分之一二七三案委員蘇清泉等人提案科目同二七二案向下水電費減列二百二十萬元凍結十分之一二七四案委員陳昭志等人提案科目同二七三案減列二百萬元二七五案委員陳昭志等人提案科目同二七二案向下特別費凍結五分之一二七六至二八一案科目為職業安全衛生業務"},{"start":6598.619,"end":6621.316,"text":"二七六案委員蘇清泉等人提案凍結十分之一二七七案委員吐泉基等人提案凍結二十分之一二七八案委員蘇清泉翁曉林等人提案凍結一千萬元二七九案委員林月琴等人提案凍結五十萬元二八零案委員林月琴等人提案凍結五十萬元二八一案委員王振旭等人提案凍結十萬元二八二案委員廖偉祥等人提案"},{"start":6622.016,"end":6636.068,"text":"職業安全衛生業務媒體政策及業務宣導費簡列50萬元凍結10萬元283案委員王玉明等人提案科目同282案簡列50萬元284案委員蘇星泉翁小林等人提案科目同282案簡列45萬元凍結15萬元"},{"start":6639.727,"end":6657.575,"text":"二八五至二九零案科目為職業安全衛生業務健全職業安全衛生管理及制度二八五案委員王玉明等人提案簡列一百萬元凍結二百萬元二八六案委員楊耀等人提案簡列一百萬元凍結一百萬元二八七案委員劉建國等人提案"},{"start":6658.195,"end":6672.108,"text":"檢列一百萬元凍結一百萬元二八八案委員陳英等人提案檢列五十四萬八千元凍結一百萬元二八九案委員林淑芬等人提案凍結十分之一二九零案委員王振旭楊耀林月琴提案凍結一百萬元"},{"start":6673.129,"end":6698.456,"text":"二九一案委員盧憲一等人提案科目同285案向下業務費減列三百萬元二九二案委員陳金輝、廖偉翔、陳昭芝提案科目同二九一案凍結五分之一二九三至二九七案科目為建構職場安全及推動防災措施二九三案委員王玉明等人提案減列一百萬元凍結三百萬元二九四案委員楊耀等人提案減列一百萬元凍結一百萬元"},{"start":6699.896,"end":6716.806,"text":"二九五案委員劉建國等人提案檢列50萬元凍結100萬元二九六案委員陳盈等人提案檢列30萬4千元二九七案委員邱正鈞廖韋翔盧憲一提案凍結100萬元二九八案委員盧憲一等人提案柯木桐二九三案向下業務費檢列500萬元"},{"start":6718.527,"end":6740.914,"text":"二九九案委員陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭芝提案科目同二九八案凍結五分之一三零零案委員廖偉祥等人提案科目同二九八案凍結二十分之三三零一案委員劉建國等人提案強化職業衛生與推動勞工健康服務凍結十分之一三零二案委員王振旭楊耀林月琴提案科目同三零一案凍結十萬元"},{"start":6742.054,"end":6760.285,"text":"三零三案委員盧憲一等人提案科木同三零一案向下業務費檢列一百萬元三零四案委員陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭芝提案科木同三零三案凍結五分之一三零五案委員陳盈等人提案策進職災勞工保護制度檢列三百萬元"},{"start":6760.865,"end":6783.266,"text":"三零六案委員陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭芝提案科目同三零五案向下業務費凍結五分之一三零七案委員陳盈等人提案科目同三零五案向下獎補助費減列五十萬元三零八至三一一案科目為加強勞動監督檢查三零八案委員陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭芝提案凍結十分之三"},{"start":6783.786,"end":6812.641,"text":"三零九案委員王振旭、楊耀林、岳勤提案凍結一百萬元三一零案委員蘇清泉等人提案凍結十分之一三一一案委員邱振均、廖偉翔、盧憲一提案凍結五十萬元三一二案委員盧憲一等人提案柯木桐三零八案向下業務費檢列二百萬元三一三案委員陳盈等人提案落實危險性機械及設備檢查與管理檢列三百萬元三一四案委員陳金輝、廖偉翔、陳昭芝提案"},{"start":6813.161,"end":6832.931,"text":"建權機械設備及器具安全資訊登錄與驗證業務費凍結五分之一315萬委員陳昭志等人提案科目同314案向下一般事務費凍結五分之一316萬委員陳昭志等人提案科目同315萬凍結五分之一317萬委員陳昭志等人提案科目同315萬凍結五分之一"},{"start":6835.012,"end":6851.717,"text":"三一八案至三一九案為委員王振旭等人提案主決議勞動基金運用局三二零案委員盧憲一等人提案一般行政基本行政工作維持檢列十分之一三二一案委員蘇清泉等人提案科目同三二零案向下水電費檢列26萬元"},{"start":6853.597,"end":6868.002,"text":"三二二案委員陳昭志等人提案科目同三二一案檢列10萬元三二三案委員陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭志提案基金運用業務基金投資與運用規劃凍結十分之一三二四案委員陳盈等人提案"},{"start":6868.482,"end":6886.035,"text":"基金業務之嚴考及控管檢列五十萬元三二五案委員王振旭賴會員等人提案科目同三二四案凍結五百萬元三二六案委員陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭芝提案科目同三二四案凍結十分之一三二七案委員黃秀芳等人提案主決議"},{"start":6886.795,"end":6905.061,"text":"三二半案委員王振旭楊耀林月琴提案主決議勞動及職業安全衛生研究所三二九案委員黃秀芳等人提案勞動及職業安全衛生研究所凍結一千萬元三三零案委員蘇清泉等人提案一般行政基本行政工作維持水電費減列130萬元凍結十分之一"},{"start":6907.302,"end":6922.521,"text":"三三一案委員陳昭芝等人提案科目同三三零案檢列130萬元三三二至三三五案科目為勞動及職業安全衛生研究三三二案委員蘇清泉等人提案凍結十分之一三三三案委員蘇清泉"},{"start":6923.562,"end":6932.466,"text":"如憲一、王育敏提案凍結十分之一、 334案委員林月琴等人提案凍結50萬元、 335案委員林月琴等人提案凍結50萬元、 336案委員陳盈等人提案勞動市場趨勢與就業安定研究檢列100萬元。"},{"start":6940.149,"end":6959.43,"text":"三三七案委員陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭芝提案科木童三三六案凍結十分之一三三八案委員林月琴范雲等人提案科木童三三六案凍結一百萬元三三九案委員陳瑩等人提案科木童三三六案向下業務費減列三百萬元三四零案委員蘇清泉等人提案"},{"start":6959.89,"end":6983.392,"text":"科木童336案向下水電費減列50萬元凍結十分之一341案委員劉建國等人提案辦理工作生活平衡與友善職場研究勞資關係與勞動條件研究減列50萬元凍結100萬元342案委員陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之提案科木童341案凍結十分之一343案委員陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭之提案"},{"start":6984.573,"end":6997.668,"text":"機電營造化工安全技術及安全管理研究凍結十分之一三四四案委員王玉明等人提案結合科技掌握職業衛生危害開發控制技術以降低暴露以降低暴露風險簡略"},{"start":6998.729,"end":7019.35,"text":"一百萬元動節一千萬元三四五萬委員盧憲義等人提案科木同三四四案動節十分之一三四六萬委員林月琴范雲等人提案科木同三四四案動節一百萬元三四七案委員王正旭代會員等人提案辦理勞動與職業安全衛生展示研發成果推廣與國際交流動節五百萬元"},{"start":7020.351,"end":7037.241,"text":"繼續宣讀財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度預算案工作計劃部分應依據收入支出不動產廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整收入支出及輿出部分收入總額3億9906萬7千元"},{"start":7040.042,"end":7066.772,"text":"支出總額3億9千7百26萬7千元本期剩餘180萬元不動產、廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資674萬5千元資金運用部分因依據收入、支出、不動產、廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資等向之審查結果隨同調整繼續宣讀委員提案共計議案一、委員蘇清泉圖權及邱振軍提案業務支出凍結10分之3宣讀完畢"},{"start":7088.191,"end":7096.997,"text":"好那現在已經宣讀完畢齁那我們先休息10分鐘好了大家再溝通我們10點40分開始審查"},{"start":7760.131,"end":7773.637,"text":"好現在開始進行公務預算主案討論那總共有委員提案347案每案先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見好我們現在開始審查第一案那個麥克風是發下去都發了"},{"start":7787.327,"end":7800.549,"text":"報告委員第一案是陳昭之委員提出來的那他的凍結數已經同意改成凍結90萬元提出書面報告後解凍那委員已簽署好那第一案就照這樣通過第二案"},{"start":7803.56,"end":7822.57,"text":"跟主席跟各位委員報告第二案是楊要委員關心勞保財務的議題跟委員辦公室溝通謝謝委員的支持同意不簡列改凍結勞動保險業務50萬元並與其他提案並按凍結委員已經簽署第二案通過第三案"},{"start":7827.54,"end":7830.125,"text":"第三案是曾經會委員關心有關勞動保險業務將補助預算增減的原因那跟委員溝通委員已經改成主決議那已經簽署"},{"start":7841.613,"end":7864.487,"text":"好第3案改成主決議通過第4案那第4案是翁曉琳委員那翁曉琳委員是關心勞保財務的議題那我們有送書面報告給委員辦公室文字列有修正還沒有簽署還沒有簽署那那個書委員先保留好第4案保留"},{"start":7865.643,"end":7876.008,"text":"第5案第5案是林業群委員關心勞保條例所定的移屬條件的議題那跟委員辦公室溝通已經改並動勞動保險業務10萬元那委員已經簽署好林委員"},{"start":7883.803,"end":7899.043,"text":"這篇我還是要表達一下,因為被保險人是單身,如果身故前受兄弟姊妹撫養的話,被保險期間死亡撫養他的兄弟姊妹應該要可以去領傷障津貼來辦理後事,否則他"},{"start":7900.697,"end":7919.646,"text":"一退休剛好就碰到就是死亡什麼東西然後就所有的都要變成是他家屬來做負擔了所以我退保後的身故則撫養他的兄弟姐妹什麼都不能領這個問題我還是希望因為民眾都在反映不公平因為他過去是在保繳這些費用可是最後他當他死亡"},{"start":7920.586,"end":7942.654,"text":"他還沒領的時候他一退休就過世結果變成家人要全部去做負擔所以更討論所以希望你們在6個月內要去做出相關所以我還是動50萬嘛那同平安可是希望你們趕快可以把這個報告盡快的交出來是我們依照委員的指示我們來寫書面報告是好"},{"start":7948.994,"end":7952.799,"text":"第5案,照林委員的這個凍結50萬。第6案也是林委員關心"},{"start":7960.529,"end":7965.012,"text":"好那到底是動50萬還是動50萬動50萬動50萬喔動50萬對動50萬謝謝並動50萬對並動50萬好第6案第6案也是林委員喔那委員已經同意改組決議已經簽署好那林委員好"},{"start":7985.358,"end":8010.531,"text":"第6案改組決議第7案第7案是王振旭委員那王振旭委員已經簽署同意原來的10萬改併動10萬元是來主席這部分我還是麻煩這個主管機關針對於為什麼需要把這個急劇做一些調高的問題還有他必要性也讓我們知道那我們是同意可以併案處理"},{"start":8012.512,"end":8016.774,"text":"好第第7案就是呃病動病動10萬元好病動10萬嗎是是是病動10萬所以"},{"start":8038.894,"end":8045.299,"text":"所以現在是第二案、第三案、第四案、第五案、第六案、第七案是不是因為都那個工作計畫都相同那是全部都並動?"},{"start":8045.299,"end":8045.439,"text":"是!是!那全部?"},{"start":8045.439,"end":8062.412,"text":"沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":8068.345,"end":8070.595,"text":"所以現在是第二案、第五案、第七案並動50萬。"},{"start":8080.818,"end":8107.164,"text":"第8案第8案是陳慶慧委員那也同意改病棟勞動保險沒有沒有不好意思不好意思主席這案是我的對我沒有我要保留送學生因為理由很簡單我們對於勞保基金是無底洞的撥補但是你又說你要研議這些勞工保險財務及就業保險的計劃可是對一般人民而言"},{"start":8108.124,"end":8128.556,"text":"實在是沒有辦法理解因為大家都聽到勞保基金始終是在一種快要破產的危險的邊緣好那呃陳委員原本你這一案有簽署齁我沒有簽署我沒有簽署對啊你有簽那是不是要再拿回去"},{"start":8137.128,"end":8153.842,"text":"好那第8案就先保留第9案那跟委員報告第8案的部分因為舊保舊保的文字啦因為舊保沒有撥補是不是未來把舊保文字刪除這樣修正對"},{"start":8159.057,"end":8172.768,"text":"陳委員那個第8案你是要保留還是我要保留我要保留好那第8案保留第9案好那第9案是王育明委員他關心勞保財務的議題可不可以懇請委員能夠同意改併動50萬沒有辦法"},{"start":8175.49,"end":8203.241,"text":"那個我的第九案呢一樣關心的就是我們的整個勞工保險到底現在執政黨要怎麼處理那如果說撥補就是改革那到底一年應該要撥補多少如果按照一般專家學者講一年至少要撥補五千多億但是以現在的水位不是就只是拖而已並不是一個真正的解決方案第二個是如果撥補即是改革"},{"start":8203.621,"end":8227.532,"text":"那政府要擔起最終最後支付責任這個不是嘴巴說說應該就是要正式的立法那因為這個案子我覺得涉及到廣大千萬勞工他們是不是都可以確保特別是年輕這一代以後退休還可以領得到這個勞保金那所以應該是要送這個保留送協商這個議題是一個非常大的議題"},{"start":8229.853,"end":8239.257,"text":"所以我這個案子保留送學生好那第9案保留第10案第10案是盧憲毅委員他關心勞保財務的議題那同意改併動50萬元委員已經簽署好第10案併動50萬第11案是蘇青前委員他就是關心勞保財務的議題那也同意改併動50萬"},{"start":8258.007,"end":8265.259,"text":"第11案並動50萬 第12案 沒有沒有沒有 這個保留一起協商好了 保留一起協商"},{"start":8265.939,"end":8291.136,"text":"跟那個王毅民的第9案一起打好不好保留一起審查那原本蘇委員你有簽署的這個部分在撤回去暫時後的好那第11案保留第12案第12案是邱政經委員他也是關心勞保財務的議題那也改統一病棟勞動保險業務10萬元委員已經簽署了"},{"start":8296.379,"end":8305.767,"text":"好那原本有簽的部分是要在策委好那第12案保留"},{"start":8309.679,"end":8322.503,"text":"13案13案是陳委員關心勞退自選投資的議題委員同意改組決議已經簽署13案改組決議第14案14案是土委員關心單身勞工的遺屬要來領遺屬年金的議題委員同意改組決議已經簽署13案改組決議第15案"},{"start":8337.133,"end":8358.38,"text":"第15案是盧憲毅委員關心勞保財務的議題同意改病棟勞動保險業務50萬元已經簽署好,第15案病棟50萬,第16案第16案是陳金輝委員關心勞保的傷病給予勤領條件的議題那委員還沒有簽署陳委員"},{"start":8360.555,"end":8362.035,"text":"第16案改組決議第17案第17案改組決議第18案"},{"start":8381.841,"end":8403.907,"text":"18跟19我都不同意改組決議18就是應該要下降非典型就業的承攬人力而且你們正式編制的職員都已經明顯增加了那我有稍微問了一下你們說這個114年度用三個月就就只需要用三個月這樣子我覺得對勞工太不尊重了"},{"start":8408.252,"end":8429.534,"text":"關於第18案剛才陳委員你原本有簽署有簽署了有簽署我先把它收回不好意思我16跟17簽署主決議可是我18我要保留送協商18保留1919我也保留送協商"},{"start":8430.026,"end":8433.17,"text":"二十案改組決議二十一案"},{"start":8445.026,"end":8463.503,"text":"二十一案是蘇清泉委員的有關水電費的部分那跟委員報告說勞動部其實台電近三年的那個價電費已經調漲百分之三十那勞動部整體增加只有26所以希望委員能夠可以同意改成主決議蘇委員"},{"start":8474.068,"end":8492.522,"text":"這個要說明啦齁我還是要再講一次齁整個經濟部用錯誤的能源政策然後搞了一大堆一直漲價然後叫你們就編明年預算就編預算來要來支運那為什麼不去跟經濟部講叫他不要給漲你們的電費"},{"start":8494.083,"end":8508.219,"text":"這樣子的話對於百姓是無辜的我們電費醫療院所什麼一些公司已經被漲了兩次了去年到現在已經漲了47%的電費"},{"start":8511.322,"end":8532.13,"text":"下季時間一度電8塊多那晚上半夜兩塊多部長你知道嗎?白天是8塊多所以錯誤的政策然後造成你們的增加然後叫全民來買單我覺得就很不公平所以這就要講不是你們的錯啦是經濟部所以順便我們再來討論一下好部長那個"},{"start":8541.202,"end":8542.885,"text":"謝謝書委員的關心我説明有兩個點第一個點"},{"start":8545.41,"end":8570.571,"text":"第一個點是說確實過去我們現在看到其實過去在我們業務單位在水電費的編列其實一直都有編列不足的狀況坦白說就存在編列不足的狀況那這一次是行政院那特別說那如果過去有編列不足的狀況這一次讓大家編組這是第一個原因第二個原因確實是剛才講到說因為我們有很多的這個大樓他是用契約容量的部分那因為契約容量的部分會被這個電價的調漲給漲到主要是這兩個原因"},{"start":8573.593,"end":8598.67,"text":"那我不知道可不可以跟書委員討論或者說我們也跟其他委員因為有些委員其實也都談到水電費的問題我非常非常願意我們這個預算編列外其實我也希望我們同仁這些相關的所屬的機關怎麼樣能夠再把能源效率再提高甚至這部分也讓更多的這個節能方面的專家學者來做這些相關的協助這部分我也很願意來"},{"start":8599.691,"end":8602.613,"text":"我們也不是說說啊漲價了所以我就就好像有點殺手不管也不是我們很願意來這方面來精進這樣好不好"},{"start":8628.752,"end":8644.165,"text":"你漲價你就轉移過來我覺得這樣這樣沒有好好毫無誠意跟改善我們願意精進啦我們這針對能源效率提高台電已經撥補一千億一千億已經撥補兩次了現在還在情緒囉嗦他說再不撥還要再漲"},{"start":8646.42,"end":8647.72,"text":"二十一案保留"},{"start":8666.565,"end":8681.553,"text":"二十二案二十二案也是蘇清泉委員的那可不可以跟主席解釋一下二十二案到二十八案都是特別費的部分喔那二十三案是圖全基委員二十四案是翁曉琳委員二十五案是陳昭芝委員好"},{"start":8685.051,"end":8702.301,"text":"對我對我們部長的複製我們事實上他很聰明我那天跟他談他還說他的宿舍都不敢住進去住因為要花很多錢要整修在裝修他就不得了要被罵死了所以我肯定他"},{"start":8703.141,"end":8714.476,"text":"阿這個因為很多人提啦所以呢一包我們一起來討論因為歐小林委員他現在在另外一個部位齁那我們等一下再先保留我們再回來再所以現在是"},{"start":8716.92,"end":8722.242,"text":"我全部要求保留28的部分我可以再說明一下"},{"start":8734.627,"end":8754.992,"text":"部長應該沒有看過那個會議記錄根據經濟部他的標檢局已經說沒有標準可依循但是執安署還是做出這個會議結論這目前就是讓那個所謂的鑄鐵不合格80%的求化率的鑄鐵他有一個新名詞叫做求墨"},{"start":8756.596,"end":8756.876,"text":"我25、26、27、28我是先要求保留協商"},{"start":8781.966,"end":8783.407,"text":"23、24、25、26、27、28、29目前就先保留"},{"start":8810.86,"end":8813.382,"text":"二九有簽了嗎?"},{"start":8813.382,"end":8816.864,"text":"那二十九已經改成組決議簽署那現在就是23、24、25、26、27、28先保留"},{"start":8828.655,"end":8829.435,"text":"是改成主決議還是保留?"},{"start":8860.067,"end":8888.502,"text":"現在就是22、23、24、25、26、27、28目前先保留第三十案三十案也是水電費的部分那是不是也就是等一下也是保留三十案保留三十一案也是水電費也是保留"},{"start":8890.071,"end":8914.597,"text":"三十一案保留三十二案的話委員同意改成組決議簽署好三十二案改組決議三十三案三十三案的部分的話委員不在現場然後委員也沒有簽署是不是就保留保留好保留三十四案三十四案也保留保留"},{"start":8918.184,"end":8920.005,"text":"35案保留保留送鞋箱35案保留"},{"start":8945.993,"end":8965.16,"text":"三五也是保留送協商三十六三十六是那個陳委員陳慶會委員關心那個勞動執行業務那這邊有跟委員辦公室那邊有溝通以後該組決議了好三十六案改組決議三十七案"},{"start":8965.916,"end":8992.415,"text":"那37月是廖偉祥廖委員的他關心我們在勞動諮詢業務裡面有一個購買個人電腦跟交換器光纖交換器這部分那這部分因為該委員辦公室還沒說明一下是因為這部分是依照主計總處我們電腦是每年貸換五分之一啦所以我們每年會編這個預算那一輪五年這樣把它貸換完畢那另外那個光纖交換器是因為"},{"start":8993.255,"end":9022.25,"text":"我原本誤解這個不是要供上網用是供我面部網路連結從各個樓層連結到我主機房的主機電腦使用那這台電腦這個兩個設備呢都是104年買的到明年已經第11年其實是非常舊而且那個有資安的勞動餘地不能修補所以我們編了預算要購買這件事情那個價格都是從公共企業是都可以查詢得到的"},{"start":9023.07,"end":9047.608,"text":"非常實在是這樣那請委員是不是可以呃測案或是說請問一下這個你們拉線會不會涉及到裝潢會不會有另外一筆裝潢費用不會不會不會那個就直接純粹就從那個接線那個以前就已經都裝好只是把設備汰換掉了啊設備汰換掉了沒有沒有那個沒有沒有沒有沒有是是OK好謝謝委員那這個就這個就測案沒問題好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":9049.69,"end":9068.382,"text":"那第38案沒有等一下37案是怎樣測案測案好37案測案好38案那38案翁小林委員這跟剛剛37案還有39、40、41都是一樣的都是一樣的的案由那解釋都是一樣都是因為依主席總署那個"},{"start":9069.463,"end":9069.483,"text":"蘇委員．"},{"start":9099.571,"end":9113.214,"text":"我曉得你保留一下那39萬蘇委員的39萬蘇委員因為跟37跟41是一樣的內容都是一模一樣這個是"},{"start":9129.673,"end":9153.557,"text":"你那個每年齁每年都增加預算然後配置到哪裡啊怎麼用那每年我看每年都因為報告委員那個因為整個勞動部部本部這邊總共人數大概加起來將近400多然後每年大概五分之一是原則是五分之四八十但是因為有時候會今年比較沒有錢可能整滿六十起步"},{"start":9153.977,"end":9156.719,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管"},{"start":9178.914,"end":9197.076,"text":"加那個地方所以才今年會比其他往年多所以你們是多久派換在在五年五分之一每年他們五分之一五分之一啊因為那個五年報會啊對他那個主席總是四年報會但是公家機關是會用到五年啊所以他是五分五分之四年太快了吧"},{"start":9197.617,"end":9221.064,"text":"那個他是他是這麼寫但是我們公務機關會會再能用就會再繼續用了都是都是變到七年八年了還有殘職了沒有他會算殘職啊那你們殘職跳到哪裡去啊我們有時候會整理那有一些藝樂團體或社會團體那個比較弱勢團體會來向我們要兼增電腦那後來我們會把它"},{"start":9224.586,"end":9251.016,"text":"所以你們今天轉贈給社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會福利及社會"},{"start":9253.174,"end":9262.883,"text":"第39案徹案第40案是一樣跟那個要委員這篇是剛跟那個37案是一樣"},{"start":9274.062,"end":9288.133,"text":"欸我還是想問一下你們現在因為你用光纖交換器但現在大概都是Wi-Fi通訊喔那你們現在更新的必要性因為是Wi-Fi的話是如果是外網的話當然是用Wi-Fi是比較但是因為這個是內部網路"},{"start":9290.334,"end":9290.594,"text":"這是雙重的問題"},{"start":9315.578,"end":9338.943,"text":"OK,好,那就跟37案一樣嘛,就測案。 好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝。 那個我跟委員報告一下,因為有的委員剛剛有的是保留,有的是保留送協商,那這個是不一樣喔,保留的話就是到第二輪,那保留送協商就沒有到,就是﹖好,那不在就直接保留送協商﹖ 直接政黨協商嘛,所以你們等一下如果要保留"},{"start":9340.103,"end":9352.737,"text":"保留那就是二輪喔齁那如果保你們自己本身講保留送協商那就是政黨協商好不好你們自己要講清楚要不然我就是用保留保留就是二輪喔齁好那呃41案測案齁42案"},{"start":9360.441,"end":9371.515,"text":"事實上是謝謝王毓民委員他不要關心我們中規是下面一個政策的業務的宣導的費用那已經感謝委員已經簽名同意並按簡略中規是綜合規劃業務預算30萬且科目執行調整"},{"start":9375.738,"end":9381.662,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算"},{"start":9395.326,"end":9417.288,"text":"44案是陳培運委員也是關心我們綜合貴家業務的部分然後那已經也同意改成主決議44案改主決議45案45案是王振旭委員他主要是針對我們的那個勞動法規裡面有些法律要重新再檢討有沒有必要對外公開裁罰的部分那也謝謝委員同意已經改主決議45案改主決議46案"},{"start":9419.229,"end":9437.321,"text":"46案是曾經委員的提案,主要是針對我們綜合規劃業務裡面有一個管好平台的系統的建置。然後經過說明之後,也謝謝委員同意凍結我們綜合規劃業務政策策劃政策推展5%。是,改組決議,改凍結署。"},{"start":9440.339,"end":9467.607,"text":"就改凍結5%對改凍結5%凍結5%對5%好47案47案是我們廖偉強委員的提案他主要是針對我們那個上下工勞工在上下班如果遇到天然災害的時候那可不可以比照公園的部分不過這部分是不是我們有提書面主決到委員辦公室可不可以讓委員同意我們的請求廖委員廖委員對"},{"start":9471.704,"end":9486.01,"text":"我想要了解一下這個立法的期程喔那如果明確於114年推動的話我覺得就可以解凍了到時候但是現在想要先了解一下關於這個權益的部分立法期程是怎麼樣"},{"start":9486.826,"end":9506.054,"text":"嗯那上下班途中因為跟委員報告這個因為我們綜合規劃又大概是在做一些政策的延期的部分那因為這邊會涉及到實際上下班裡面會牽涉我們還有其他單位的部分所以114年應該是比較有點難度那不然我們就保留鐘先生"},{"start":9508.632,"end":9519.381,"text":"47案保留送協商48案48案是書記員的提案是針對我們高工時的也請我們去做一些相關的原意那也謝謝委員同意改成主決議48案改組決議49案"},{"start":9522.308,"end":9540.282,"text":"49 49案是翁曉琳委員的提案。然後我們有去委員辦公室協商但有送文件到委員辦公室但還沒有簽署。 好49案保留。50案。 50案也是我們書記選委的一個建議就是有針對我們的一些的政策宣導的部分然後委員同意改成主決議。"},{"start":9540.95,"end":9562.24,"text":"好,50案改組決議51案51案跟52案都是廖偉祥委員的提案兩個提案都一樣都是針對我們業務的政策宣導的部分那是不是建委員可不可以比照跟王一民委員一樣是併案3減30萬廖委員我要保留送協商好"},{"start":9567.682,"end":9571.744,"text":"所以51跟52都要保留?"},{"start":9571.744,"end":9586.27,"text":"是不是建議我們跟委員我們可不可以再跟你們報告一下?因為這個預算不多啦,預算只有62萬而已。 對啊,所以就保留宋學長吧。 保留跟委員報告可不可以保留?"},{"start":9587.771,"end":9596.724,"text":"他可以自辦為何還有這個耗費資源去投放廣告那你們不是都有培訓嗎這不是應該是內部小編的職責嗎"},{"start":9600.39,"end":9626.668,"text":"跟委員報告齁基本上來講我們本身因為有些業務上來講不是我們部裡面能夠做政策宣導裡面我們也必須要透過一些的平面的媒體或者是我們廣播去做一些宣導那基本上因為我們編的預算數真的不多那本身來講部裡面當然講臉書部門我們自己有的是小編的同仁會去做一些的協助欸主席我想就保留宋協商"},{"start":9632.298,"end":9649.606,"text":"五一跟五二就保留宋協商五三是陳謙委員關注我們中央公安業管考的業務裡面也是我們的建制系統委員已經同意簽名同意凍結我們中央公安業務強化計畫管考5%"},{"start":9651.383,"end":9678.213,"text":"五十三案凍結百分之五十四案五十四案是廖委員的提案是針對我們因為他提到是營建業的能力不足那要靠補充152名的員工那希望是我們去能夠針對去強化我們的一些的管考能力的部分跟我們報告這部分是不是能夠待會事後跟我們再報告一下"},{"start":9678.513,"end":9700.431,"text":"我想要請問一下這個何時可以召開這個缺工會議啊對缺工會議目前為止是我們勞發組這邊會在主政那你什麼時候會召開這個部分可能什麼時候會召開全國缺工會議因為我的提案有講嘛就是最主要是這個有檢討的必要嘛是"},{"start":9702.939,"end":9704.2,"text":"我知道你會啊,但是我是問什麼時候嗎?"},{"start":9722.163,"end":9736.71,"text":"跟委員報告因為上一次何部長在任內的時候呢那個商業總會有先召開過一次那時候何部長也有參加那一些意見我們都有回收回來那我們會再次需要再做後續的一個缺工議題的一個盤點跟處理"},{"start":9738.959,"end":9766.765,"text":"不好意思我沒有聽清楚是在何部長任內的時候呢那個時候全國商業總會曾經召開過一次缺工的一個議題的一個會議那邀請部長共同主持那那一次的會議所收集到的意見也作為我們現在在盤點這個缺工因應措施的一個資訊那什麼時候進一步會有再進一步的檢討或是要怎麼去因應這樣那因為我只是凍結嘛所以到時候已經確定好"},{"start":9767.245,"end":9783.732,"text":"然後要怎麼推進的時候我們就可以解凍那個跟跟文說明吼其實現在針對勞動力開發就是目前產業有提出這個缺工這個議題那我們其實現在部裡面其實這個行政院有指示吼那我們會在這應該是這一兩個"},{"start":9785.532,"end":9805.522,"text":"這兩個月裡面那針對這勞動力開發的一些做法那我們會提出相關的評估跟做法所以這部分其實是我們現在很密很很花很多力氣在進行的事情因為確實產業也有很多的聲音那只是我們在做評估的時候我們要要想怎麼樣來兼顧守護"},{"start":9808.252,"end":9827.073,"text":"勞工的權益所以這部分其實是有在做的那所以需要多少時間大概兩個月以內一個月我們是目前大概會是在應該是希望是在年後有一個初步的評估但是還是沒有很具體的時間還是要改個主決議然後壓一個具體時間"},{"start":9829.251,"end":9831.653,"text":"我覺得如果可以主持的話當然是比較好好不好?"},{"start":9831.653,"end":9856.013,"text":"加一個具體的時間是我們就說您然後開會講錯了應該是說召開完之後召開完之後然後到委員會報告完之後我們就經委員會同意我們就可以解凍跟委員說明第一個事情是我們這其實在做政策性的評估啦吼那現在當然是在做重新評估所以可能不一定一定是說我們去召開一個所謂全國缺工會議"},{"start":9857.608,"end":9861.241,"text":"因為要召開一個全國性的會議他需要籌辦的時間其實是需要蠻長的"},{"start":9867.188,"end":9893.255,"text":"其實應該這樣講啊因為這個是很模糊的嘛那你覺得有其我現在就是覺得有其必要性可以去召開嗎還是你覺得已經不需要了我們沒有覺得不需要因為現在當然一定都是在收集各方的意見包括資方的意見包括產業的意見包括勞方的意見絕對都要綜合性評估可是我的意思是說一定是要召開一個所謂全國缺工會的行這個召開全國性會議的時間點常常是要比較長的"},{"start":9894.815,"end":9922.037,"text":"所以其實基本上我的訴求是這樣啦如果有確定了哪一個日期然後何時可以召開,允諾要召開在什麼時間點可以的話到時候報委員會我們就可以解凍我們會來收集各方的意見但形式上不一定是一個所謂全國缺工會議的形式啦因為用這個形式其實有很多的意見不一定這不一定是唯一能夠收集大家意見的形式我想讓"},{"start":9922.978,"end":9946.277,"text":"委員其實可以瞭解但以勞動部建在針對缺工這這是一個非常非常重大的議題我們當然要收集不管是產官學勞的意見都一定要那你們目前怎麼收集那你們目前用什麼讓人家比較可能我們有相關的諮詢的會議啊包括其實很多的目的世界主管機關其實都要來做討論就是說到時候這個目的世界主管機關"},{"start":9946.857,"end":9968.599,"text":"那這些產業產官學的這些包括經濟部交通部包括這個相關的產業的工商團體也包括勞工團體這些所有的意見一定我們都是要彙整的好沒關係部長我想我因為我是凍結我們大家都很關心這個議題所以我想我們就保留送協商保留送協商"},{"start":9968.919,"end":9978.727,"text":"是不是那個53案跟54案是不是可以並動因為53案是動5%嘛那54案53案是15欸並動5%啦就是那個53案剛剛是動5%嗎各位很抱歉因為這幾個議題裡面必須要長期性的在做一下規劃那大概來講是不是說是其實案件都差不多是會做並動的"},{"start":9997.935,"end":10006.561,"text":"好,那我們併動然後保留送鞋商。併動還保留送鞋商?併動,併動完之後?就併動。併動你們就可以了?對,併動。好,併動。就是,到時候我們寫一下就53、54跟55一起嗎?都併動嗎?那就53、54、55併動5%嗎?對,是。好。併動5%"},{"start":10028.647,"end":10037.421,"text":"欸那55的科目跟53的科目不太一樣他都是計劃管考喔計劃管考都是長話計劃管考都是他有55萬是那個優惠費對"},{"start":10041.485,"end":10054.613,"text":"五十三、五十四、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、五十五、"},{"start":10066.926,"end":10069.308,"text":"五十六案五十六案改組決議五十七案"},{"start":10091.569,"end":10120.809,"text":"五七七案是陳俊偉的提案他是希望了解我們為什麼要購買翻譯國際勞動研究的書刊那這部分跟委員報告是因為我之前讀過很多勞研所的做出來的報告其實我覺得勞研所做出來的報告非常好所以他本來就是負責主責你們勞動政策的研究嘛因此我覺得綜合規劃師不應該再多編列這300多萬然後去購買研究的資料就已經有勞研所我們是要做第二個勞研所嗎"},{"start":10121.429,"end":10148.23,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們的業務上有做分切割基本上中規師來講的人力政策規劃大概是做先驅性的一些研究那我們做完研究之後會再把我們研究發現的結果會在每年3月份會交給我們老人所再做後續研究所以基本上我們在定位上部裡面先做政策性的先驅性的研究之後才把這些政策會交給我們老人所去做後續研究沒關係我要保留送協商"},{"start":10149.932,"end":10165.247,"text":"保留可不可以根委員因為基本上因為我們在買國外的書籍其實費用真的不高一年大概只有幾萬塊而已我覺得你們可以把它編到勞研所去啊根委員報告因為我們兩個業務界部裡面政策的會先驅性跑得比他還快"},{"start":10165.968,"end":10182.676,"text":"那做完之後我們才把研究一些要再做的細項部分交給他們再去做研究其實我看過你們勞援所的報告你們做的報告也很先驅而且是把全世界的勞動相關的都已經整理得很好了我們部裡面的也有做報告我們也有做"},{"start":10183.596,"end":10201.102,"text":"我沒有做研究報告部長你可以講一下先驅性跟後端的差別嗎我跟陳委員報告因為其實重規劃師本來就是協助整體的政策規劃就他本來就一個整體政策規劃所以讓重規師他有能力瞭解這個"},{"start":10202.762,"end":10218.303,"text":"了解我們現在國際上面最新的一些勞動政策的變化跟趨勢坦白說我覺得這件事情對重規師在做整體的政策規劃的是一件重要的事情那勞研所的部分他比較是針對說我們可能認為哪些部分要再進一步的深入去探討"},{"start":10219.451,"end":10245.572,"text":"那深入探討可能大家就會給他一個更detail的題目勞安所去做研究那當然也很謝謝委員肯定我們勞安所的成果可是這個部分就中歸市來說他其實給他一點經費他可以長期的保持跟國際上面最新的勞動政策的趨勢能夠接軌能夠了解因為這個經費真的不高所以這裡面其實在分工上面其實是有這樣子的區別"},{"start":10246.502,"end":10267.993,"text":"我不好意思我可能還沒有聽懂您所謂的分工上的區別因為你前面也是在講國際的趨勢後面也是在講國際的趨勢不是不是委員我想跟你說明前面確實他們其實是一個比較長期的讓我們的整體的政策整體的政策規劃跟國際的趨勢能夠接軌但勞援所這邊可能是指派一些特定的主題"},{"start":10269.899,"end":10296.818,"text":"這可能是進到細項裡面可能一些特定的主題包括國際的趨勢跟臺灣可能一些相關的背所以我們有很多是你要研究你要了解國際可是也要對應到臺灣之間的綜合性的這樣子的比較但是重規師這邊比較就是讓他們其實有一點經費可以長期的跟國際目前最至少了解目前國際新的一些勞動的趨勢的接軌其實是有一些差別的"},{"start":10297.478,"end":10312.272,"text":"所以你們專門做研究的為什麼不把它統一因為它有可能這些資料根本就重複啦就重複購買啊我根本可不可以解釋一下我舉個例子好了我們在107、108我們關注到我們講新科技經濟的發展裡面有些新經濟像平台經濟"},{"start":10318.157,"end":10336.951,"text":"我們中衛司先做一個先期性的研究然後發現平台經濟裡面包含他的雇用關係包含他的發展我們就把這些的業務就交給我們的老人所那老人所就做後續比如說他針對平台經濟各個項目裡面再後續follow去做那最早做的研究是我們中衛司在做就跟部長所提到我會做比較先進的"},{"start":10338.095,"end":10362.233,"text":"所以你覺得你們有沒有可能根本就會重複購買到相同的國際勞動研究書刊資料這個不會為什麼因為基本上來講我們都有在對接因為基本上因為他們大概是做研究我們是長期比如說看一些那個label review那些的比較長期性的長期性要關注到等於說在比如說在國際上來講這個經費的書籍裡面我們會去找"},{"start":10365.555,"end":10367.135,"text":"57案保留送協商五十八案"},{"start":10395.334,"end":10412.63,"text":"五十八案是劉建文的提案也是關鍵我們的交通運輸業還有我們的那個就是物流跟汽車業的一些缺空的問題那是不是建議我們可以同意跟楊耀文一樣是可以用主決議的方式處理"},{"start":10414.059,"end":10438.924,"text":"委員我可以啦不過你們可能要跟主席還有其他委員拜託一下齁因為我們一般審預算第一輪當然是有一些如果解釋不清楚是先行保留嘛再來第二輪那現在如果通通保留協商大家都會很累啊而且也沒有辦法進度要比較實質討論我們在這個委員會"},{"start":10441.565,"end":10460.954,"text":"其實討論上會比較精細一些啦齁,啊你如果送保留協商那個就咻咻咻咻咻就很快就過去了齁,嘿嘿嘿所以給各位做一個參考也請主席可能要是不是休個五分鐘大家溝通一下,不然連這個案全部都保留協商,啊第二輪要不要再來?"},{"start":10463.696,"end":10476.248,"text":"如果第二輪要再來,那是再講一次保留協商。沒有啦,我不說你,我知道啦,因為前陣子很多人都保留了倉啦嘛。啊你保留了倉,其實我們就沒理由這樣討論啦。"},{"start":10478.91,"end":10500.637,"text":"我們是一般想說前面第一案第一案好整套這樣解說沒很清楚的啊好我們就保留啊第二輪才再來嘛是啊這樣大家比較像我們可以理解因為我也聽啊我也聽說你仲貴司跟你的勞援所你們的功能存在什麼地方嘛對不對啊仲貴司是所有機關來講是最最重要的一個幕僚單位"},{"start":10503.658,"end":10524.085,"text":"大佬你說的啦,我覺得是很重要的單位啦,你很重要的單位,他想說到你那裡說到委員聽不下去,你這個大佬也在那裡,可能要吃一些補腦的,吃補腦在這邊還有救啊,你去協商就沒救了,你認為說腦的反應速度沒有很快。"},{"start":10524.725,"end":10525.706,"text":"我這個可以改組決議啦我沒有意見啦好謝謝好我是幫他改組決議"},{"start":10554.744,"end":10574.33,"text":"五十九案五十九案是中加編委員的提案他主要想瞭解我們高齡化之後然後針對勞動部裡面非典型的一些的研究的方向然後那也感謝委員簽名同意改成主決議五十九案改主決議六十案六十案是曾經委員的提案是針對我們國際業務因為我們事實上跟委員報告因為我們的國際組織的業務裡面來講因為我們每年會去看"},{"start":10580.533,"end":10600.391,"text":"我總額不變那基本上來講我的整個預算的編列裡面事實上它並沒有減少那只是那個科目因為可能它是使用上來講比如他參加組織活動的項目會簡略一點點但整體上來講它費用是沒有減少的因為基本上我們推協助我們的參與國際事務我們都還蠻重視的"},{"start":10602.361,"end":10618.457,"text":"對我只是好奇就是你之前的預算跟現在的預算縮編的非常多那為什麼好如果你說編的非常多那為什麼你有什麼理由要你說加起來是一樣的那你有什麼理由要把這些個別拆出去那為什麼以前不拆"},{"start":10620.238,"end":10645.305,"text":"我們會去看一下就是說當年度比如說我辦的活動要減少的話我會把那個量放低一點點但是我會去補到比如說他要出國參加經費的部分我就那邊去把等於說讓多一點的經費容許我們的等於說公會參與國際事務我們會用這個方式去做調整所以你在明年說編很多但是你又把阿烈做強化國際事務所以你到底是要強化那個強化國際事務整體的經費沒有變只是裡面細項做調整而已"},{"start":10649.417,"end":10667.025,"text":"可是對我們來說因為我們看的就是你每一年同樣的一個項目到底是變多還是變很少那這個是看起來是變少很多嘛那為什麼今年你特別是要把一些但為什麼你今年要特別把這些東西再移到外面去"},{"start":10668.211,"end":10687.87,"text":"我沒有移到外面去對啊你的意思是說整個加起來是一樣嗎我的總總額比如說我是405萬那個總額數沒有變可能是我自己辦理的我自己的活動的量我把它稍微降低就我自辦的活動量跟業務費我把它降低一點那不然我把它補到別的地方去"},{"start":10691.113,"end":10719.278,"text":"蘇編20%蠻多的吧我只是那個小細項蘇編20%但是我總額400我都還沒有編都沒有編我們先保留好了好不好先保留可不可以我再跟委員再說好第60案保留第61案61案也是廖偉祥委員的提案也是關於他主要關切是印度移工希望他能夠實成的部分那跟委員報告大概來講現在目前為止我們現在跟印度都在做工作會議而且在未來是在一年之後"},{"start":10720.078,"end":10745.413,"text":"我想要講的事情是其實針對這個事情的MOU其實過去所有立法院所有的立委甚至包含執政黨立委都是看報才知道那這個部分到底要如何改進不然永遠都是我們背書但是我們也沒辦法確切的監督常常就是我們都看到報紙之前一下子說不簽然後外交部又說早就簽了這個到底我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":10747.027,"end":10766.116,"text":"是不是我們就是說把定期的會議能夠透過專的方式跟委員這邊做報告呢?就如果有一定的進度之下是不是改成主決議就是說如果說我們有任何的進度就是提到這邊來還是說定期用三個月六個月的方式"},{"start":10768.41,"end":10785.962,"text":"這裡我原本寫的就是說勞動部兩個月內向立法院社福未還委員會提出專案報告那可不可以不要刪減就提出決議那我用那我用凍結的然後等你們專案報告等委員會委員同意之後就可以解凍"},{"start":10788.277,"end":10805.527,"text":"那凍結的金額跟廖委員說明這事情當然我們現在政策上面我們會來推動可是針對時程上面的狀況這當然裡面會有一些包括跟這個相關的國家其實談判的一些"},{"start":10806.327,"end":10829.956,"text":"商談的一些進度的情況就是說我們在我們現在在往這個方向在推動沒有錯可是進度上面其實會有一些變數所以我覺得變數的會有不是全盤都能夠完全掌握在我們手上的情況對所以我我的建議是說我改用凍結的然後專案報告後然後委員會我們委員會的委員同意就可以解凍"},{"start":10831.94,"end":10842.224,"text":"公務及基金預算：一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查"},{"start":10853.408,"end":10868.769,"text":"其實要談的事情那我們現在當然能夠做的我們會盡力的趕快往前做可是因為是真的進度上面涉及到其他部分因為其實像這個會期也在未還文會其實也有針對印度移工的問題其實大家有來做專案報告嗎"},{"start":10870.02,"end":10893.051,"text":"所以我想說是說我們其實我也很願意請我們同仁在有進度相關的進度也許3個月一次來跟委員辦公室來做說明比方以3個月為3個月為一個一個一個週期來跟大家說明說其實不然這樣子好了剛剛你說不要動那麼多嘛好不好那我就改動20萬"},{"start":10895.519,"end":10906.469,"text":"這樣你可以嗎?改動部10萬然後也是專案報告委員會對但是時程上來講基本上你們不要因為2個月可能會有點趕那你要多久?3個月3個月是不是能夠改書面報告因為"},{"start":10914.737,"end":10928.482,"text":"你,因為這裡面就會牽涉到這個委員會有沒有辦法排案的時候。 不會啊,這個只要找委員一排也可以排很多,兩個月後可能就遇到,遇到過年的時間。 所以說要三個月呢?"},{"start":10928.482,"end":10932.043,"text":"三個月。 那就建議你們提書面報告。 那我們其實都,我們都會把相關,因為這是各方關心的事情啦。"},{"start":10958.549,"end":10960.171,"text":"這樣子還是沒有達到我們想要監督的這個"},{"start":10962.327,"end":10984.407,"text":"的狀態啊所以我覺得還是專案報告啊啊你時間你看你需要多久我們可以我們可以我們可以等啊那個會拉那個要人我想再跟你說明哦其實時間點真的跟會跟對方的國家其實有關係所以我們這個時間也不是真的是我自己說什麼時間就能什麼時間有進度的狀況所以目前是都沒有進度"},{"start":10984.787,"end":11005.11,"text":"不是沒有進度但是我的意思是說這個進度的狀況比方說怎麼樣談到什麼樣的進度所以其實我並沒有要求你說一定要壓到哪一個進度你推進到哪一個進度我才解凍我只是說你在哪一段時間做專案報告讓我們的委員會充分了解然後我們只要委員會同意就可以解凍"},{"start":11005.931,"end":11015.346,"text":"那時間你覺得什麼時候要專案報告我們可以時間也可以拉長委員這樣好不好可不可以我們提書面報告但是經委員會同意使得動之可以提書面報告可以"},{"start":11023.876,"end":11048.456,"text":"好那提書面報告但是等要經委員會的委員同意才可以解凍沒有問題好不好好好謝委員第61案就是提書面報告那經委員會同意之後時的動之61案62案62案是邱正軍委員是關心我們大陸的旅費的部分也謝謝委員已經同意改成主決議62案改主決議63案有要去嗎應該會去"},{"start":11050.558,"end":11056.025,"text":"跟委員報交有國際性的會議,如果說真的在大陸舉辦,我們一定得參加的話。 不會被統戰啦。 不會啦。"},{"start":11064.875,"end":11083.302,"text":"六十三案六十三案也是廖偉強提案是跟邱正興委員一樣都是大陸旅費的部分是不是懇請廖委員同意能夠一樣比照我們邱正興委員改成主角所以你們會去嗎跟委員報告就如果說只要是國際性的會議那因為只要是台灣是member的話只要會員一定都得參加這個東西我們不敢預測"},{"start":11085.603,"end":11086.664,"text":"那過去有嗎?"},{"start":11086.664,"end":11088.225,"text":"有。 在這一年以來?"},{"start":11088.225,"end":11090.126,"text":"去年沒有,但是明年有可能會有。 沒有啦,大型的國際會議"},{"start":11097.298,"end":11124.408,"text":"現在就已經明年的都沒辦法排出來了但是因為我不跟委員報告因為後年是大陸舉行大陸是APEC的會員國的主辦國對但是有可能他前一年就會開工作會議通常都會都會所以會有工作會議然後所以你們確定就是你們就因為我們是那個APEC的經濟體所以一定的部長會去嗎這個我說我說明一下我自己覺得關於這些相關的國際會議是"},{"start":11125.248,"end":11148.158,"text":"只要有明確能夠對於我們政策推進有幫助的對於我們政策推進有幫助的會議我們當然應該要去不管是在中國或是在其他地方但是照現在的重點的前提是這件事情真的我是擔心這樣就是大家要確保一下因為現在的這種氛圍不要害公務員去說被統戰到時候回來也很麻煩"},{"start":11150.499,"end":11174.595,"text":"但是沒關係既然你們確定有OK我只是要跟你講一下這件事如果要做相關的交流當然我們怎麼樣要守住我們自己的尊嚴跟主權這當然是一定要需要的事情但是我是說這些相關的會議要不要決定要不要去這是我們要判斷他對我們整體的政策會不會有幫助如果國際上面非常非常重要的會議他在中國開那我跟反正求證局我就跟他併案了嘛對不對就是63案逮組決議好謝謝委員"},{"start":11180.7,"end":11192.957,"text":"六四案也是蘇慶文官司大旅費的部分已經謝謝委員同意改成主決議我要問一下部長他這個我要問清楚因為你們都寫都寫不清不清"},{"start":11194.062,"end":11214.036,"text":"你們中國國藥業務裡面這個405萬3千塊是要強化國際業務 是所以跟國外他們談判外勞什麼都用算筆錢嗎 沒有還是你們有其他理會都藏在基金裡面跟委員報告不是因為基本上跟外勞移工業務會是在我們勞大數然後我們這邊比較負責像APEC或台紐之間這些的業務"},{"start":11217.791,"end":11237.53,"text":"所以你這個國際強化就是出國要入會400多萬沒有沒有沒有這裡面有業務費旅費大概只有大概將100多萬而已所以那個是出國旅費是專編的那你們是自己去開會而已阿要談判了還要另外談判是另外的東西"},{"start":11237.89,"end":11263,"text":"就是我跟委員報告就移工談判的業務組織業務會是我們在發展署的業務所以你們這樣整個勞動部你到底要編劃的理由我們根本都不曉得嘛不一樣啦我們都在看表面的你啊我跟委員報告齁因為出國旅費基本上行政組織總書都有匡列我們一定要有經費的預算而且要有項目才能夠去做編列而且你一定要有這些我們講對象國"},{"start":11264.381,"end":11284.019,"text":"像你說像APEC這是很明確那台紐這些都很明確基本上每個事項都很明確的所以你這個四百五百萬是要國際業務然後裡面的旅費是一百多萬然後大陸的是五萬一是這樣嘛那五萬一是因為可能明後年的APEC的先期會議你們要去參加"},{"start":11285.307,"end":11290.129,"text":"六十四案改組決議六十五案六十五案是陳清雯針對我們醫貿自由化的部分希望能夠凍結預算跟委員報告這個部分因為醫貿自由化大概來講"},{"start":11308.616,"end":11336.951,"text":"因為大概我們每年要固定要跟我們的勞僱團體做宣導而且現在我們政府也在推我們加入經濟區域化的經濟的組織像CPTPP這類的那我們都得去做跟我們的勞工朋友跟組團體做一下宣導我是要講說因為剛剛您講了許許多多您會做先驅的研究啊前瞻的研究等等所以其實你自己已經很厲害了在這個其他國家談判經濟合作議題上但是你經"},{"start":11338.252,"end":11365.049,"text":"比起來你今年度又縮編超過36%而且你還要委外那你為什麼要委外呢我這邊因為基本上我是請跟委員報告我們大概來講這個業務是因為零五分之大是專案計劃大概我們是委託一些我們的僱主團體幫我們辦這些宣導活動因為我們是跟他們一起合作要辦這些活動"},{"start":11366.07,"end":11394.771,"text":"沒有你勞動部的例行性的業務中就已經有在做與其他國家談判經濟合作議題上關於勞動專章的研究業務了因為你剛不斷的在強調你很擅長研究業務所以為什麼你還要在委外呢你講的委外是在這個區塊裡面區域經貿經濟化裡面沒有這個項目啊有啊執行上透過委外辦理啊"},{"start":11400.486,"end":11428.506,"text":"他還沒有找好資料所以我們就保留宋協商好了OK是不是先保留先保留一下我待會跟委員報告一下讓他再跟你們溝通啦對你直接宋協商其實在這麼多的案子其實你你也聽不到他們實際上的狀況就先保留等一下請他們再跟你說好等一下我們就溝通好謝謝委員65案保留66案66案委員是盧憲毅委員的提案是真的也是硬貓自由化裡面的然後也謝謝委員同意改成主決議66案改主決議67案"},{"start":11433.789,"end":11441.02,"text":"第16期案,謝謝王毓民委員關心我們產業公司的籌組率,謝謝委員同意並我們勞動官司的業務向下同意並案凍結100萬。"},{"start":11448.115,"end":11453.321,"text":"這個案子我講一下就是我們勞動部112年全國勞工公會組織率是32.9相較111年33.4%是不增反減所以你們這個勞動關係"},{"start":11465.655,"end":11478.969,"text":"做成這樣子我們工會的這個組織率是倒退的這個其實是真的要好好的去檢討跟改善那所以我提的這個案子那你們可以確定明年會成長嗎"},{"start":11480.428,"end":11499.199,"text":"跟委員報告,我們的工會數目都一直在增加。 那像我們的企業工會數在這兩三年從900多已經到增加了27。 整個職業工會增加了32。 那工會數有增加,但是工會參加的人確實有點下降,因為抽組率是用會員人數。"},{"start":11500.06,"end":11528.579,"text":"我們現在是為年輕人參加的比例是降低的醫院也是降低的所以你們宣導有問題還是我們現在就希望我們現在未來就是想辦法來跟公會合作吸引年輕人加入公會這一點也是我們要努力的方向當然一方面也可能有少子化的影響因為退休潮大部分都是比較48、49年次最近很多人退休他那時候人數比較龐大現在加入職場上的每一屆的畢業生"},{"start":11530.36,"end":11558.139,"text":"年輕人人數確實有少了好多萬人我們當然也是希望我們的工會繼續努力希望年輕人能夠加入工會這一點我們會來推動我想工會它是保障勞工權益很重要的一環所以這一塊不應該是它感覺像在示威就是組織率下降年輕人參與度也下降這個可能是你們勞動關係司你們的責任所以要好好的去改善"},{"start":11562.763,"end":11570.15,"text":"好那呃67案是病案凍結病案凍結勞動關係事業務電腦同學100萬100萬是那呃68697071727374這個好像都都是對是對那那個圖委員"},{"start":11581.261,"end":11581.962,"text":"六十八案改組決議六十九案"},{"start":11601.693,"end":11631.005,"text":"那針對這部分也希望勞動部還是要重視喔那針對工會的部分因為像桃園市長榮行情企業工會他這個發展真的很不正常那一個工會少數人把持一下子不招收會員一下子不收會費然後會員招收以後又沒有開這個會員大會然後開會用各種方式阻撓那這個會員大會都沒有辦法召開有心要開的沒辦法參加所以希望針對這個部分我們工會法"},{"start":11631.525,"end":11631.665,"text":"68案改組決議69案"},{"start":11661.637,"end":11686.773,"text":"第16屆也謝謝圖委員關心這個傳言的一些相關的權利義務那我們這我們也會寫書面報告特別針對這個傳言的相關的規範然後跟委員回報改成主決議謝謝委員69萬改主決議那我也說69我也說明一下那因為這個那時候跟何佩珊部長為了這個定期企業跟不定期企業的部分我們也有為了這個來爭執了很久"},{"start":11689.535,"end":11717.766,"text":"後來你們自己也知道法令這個解釋那也感謝中鋼運通昨天也跟勞資雙方也完成這個團體的協約就船員優先僱用還有恢復勞保加保的部分也達成共識那這個也是感謝我們洪部長在其實洪部長我有看到你在做立委的時候針對這個你也非常重視那雖然大家政黨不同可是也"},{"start":11719.066,"end":11734.012,"text":"終於大家斡旋之下也讓個事情圓滿落幕也保障了我們這些船員的權益啦那我覺得這也是很好典範以後大家朝野不同政黨那針對我們勞工船員這些權益我們還是可以好好的來爭取"},{"start":11736.572,"end":11754.243,"text":"六十九案改組決議七十案第七十案謝謝黃秀芳委員也關心我們公務及法院相關的規範這個案子我們有入職修正同時也是希望委員同意併六十七案並動一百萬勞動管理基金事業務"},{"start":11755.403,"end":11783.541,"text":"七十一案並動一百萬七十一案第七十一案謝謝發言委員關心我們這個霸凌的相關投書申訴機制我們六做文字修正也同意並六十七案凍結一百萬勞動工具師的業務七十一案並動一百萬七十二案七十二案也謝謝發言委員也是關心那個平台報酬透明化的相關的規範那也做文字修正也同意那個並六十七案凍結一百萬"},{"start":11785.129,"end":11798.766,"text":"並動一百萬七十三案。 七十三案謝謝林院長委員也是關心這個校園市場的霸凌的相關的一些規範我們做文資修正也同意並案凍結第六期案一百萬。"},{"start":11800.288,"end":11819.567,"text":"林委員我還是要講一下因為我們近來就接受到很多勞工他針對於他在職場霸凌那他跟我們的地方政府事上是申訴無門他覺得你自己去告民心法所以我們希望勞工局要受你申訴"},{"start":11821.008,"end":11838.529,"text":"今天當然這次發生的事實上是公務門可是過去長期以來本來比較多的就是我們在企業體上班的這些勞工們所以前段我們希望勞工深入無門的時候不敢或深入無門一定要能夠確定地方政府勞工局是要受理的"},{"start":11839.51,"end":11867.193,"text":"一旦勞工局接獲申訴之後以勞工匿名方式要求僱主真的要去落實執行我們的職場遭受到不法侵害的一些指引還有後端如果沒有辦法公平處理的時候是不是可以提出我們的訴訟輔助還有勞工如果遭受到報復的時候依勞之爭議來處理程序好處理希望能夠做到不能讓這次發生在公務門"},{"start":11868.494,"end":11888.1,"text":"那可是常年以來一直以來我覺得私人的企業部門就是對於我們的勞工們事實上沒有做善盡職責以外結果我們的第三部門也就是政府部門也不受理所以希望你們在這部分可以處理好來好謝謝委員之後我們後期都會來處理謝謝好74案病動100萬74案"},{"start":11892.702,"end":11906.818,"text":"議事長,謝謝王宗煦委員關心我們跟勞資關係的統計指標,要我們研議可行性有關團體學的覆蓋率,那這部分我們也同意,我們也會來做研議。那也謝謝委員同意殯案67案凍結勞動工具事業務100萬。"},{"start":11910.241,"end":11931.79,"text":"謝謝主席我這邊真的很希望因為團體協約覆蓋率這個是非常重要的指標IRO或是OECD都把它認為是如何能夠讓改善勞動關係很重要的指標所以就麻煩這邊能夠持續或者是真的要努力的把這個指標能夠做出來謝謝委員"},{"start":11935.233,"end":11946.009,"text":"七十四案病動一百萬七十五案七十五案謝謝楊耀文關心我們的公會的抽組率那有些委員同意了我們就是同案病案凍結六十七案一百萬"},{"start":11946.877,"end":11974.958,"text":"七十六案並動一百萬七十六案也謝謝陳昭之委員但也關心我們工會抽主率的下降那也謝謝他同意我們並六七案凍結一百萬七十六案並動一百萬七十七案謝謝邱正均委員也是關心我們的那個抽主率下降那我們也會來做檢討跟怎麼推動工會抽主率的協助措施然後也謝謝委員我們就是改主決議"},{"start":11976.031,"end":11985.118,"text":"77案改組決議78案78案也謝謝發言委員關心公會籌組的門檻那這邊我們會提出一個書面的報告那也謝謝委員同意併67案凍結100萬78案併凍100萬79案79案這個謝謝盧副縣議陸委員關心我們公會還是籌組率的下降那我們會提出書面報告那也同意併案凍結67案100萬79案併凍100萬80案"},{"start":12005.074,"end":12024.002,"text":"而是第80案曾經委員提案那你跟委員報告我們的預算雖然不是很多但是我們跟地方政府的合作不完全是要靠一定的預算我們有時候開視訊會議跟地方政府討論一些有關於一些工會勞資關係的事情"},{"start":12025.743,"end":12037.589,"text":"那有些大量解雇我們不會透過一些視訊會議來討論所以這些預算對我們來講我們不會好好來使用因為我看了去年你們的預算辦理成果你只有做了一場聯繫還有宣導會議"},{"start":12042.529,"end":12062.51,"text":"各位報告我們的預算都使用上我們都是辦理很多的法律上的一個處理跟座談跟討論那這其實很多項的項目我們都會有那不完全是開地方政府的聯席會議聯席會議的話我們常常一個電話或者有時候視訊上都可以大家來做討論"},{"start":12063.846,"end":12087.875,"text":"因為你的預算辦理成果上面沒有列出這些東西耶是是是我們因為每一項每一項的細項我們因為勞資關係的特殊是我們常常發生重大一些事項我們就要趕快來做一些邀請大家來開會那確實有時候我們就立刻就上線就來開那有時候這些費用我們可以用來做一些重大議題的討論因為現在很多工會法相關的題目需要"},{"start":12091.636,"end":12110.566,"text":"主要是在做這一部分的處理,謝謝,謝謝委員,那個同意並案並王玉敏委員的七案,好,謝謝,謝謝委員,八十跟王玉敏委員的六十七案,對,並案凍結一百,對,並案凍結一百,對,並案王玉敏委員六十七案,好,"},{"start":12114.335,"end":12116.917,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算"},{"start":12130.984,"end":12132.685,"text":"好病到阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿阿"},{"start":12152.035,"end":12168.539,"text":"處理了也有改善那是不是請委員也可以同意我們併案凍結一百萬好謝謝委員我們併六十七案八十二案併凍一百萬八十三案八十三案曾經問委員關心我們特定協約的"},{"start":12171.698,"end":12174.939,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管"},{"start":12191.343,"end":12217.337,"text":"那可是有時候可能是勞資雙方要到一定的狀況他才會簽那我每一年都會有非常多的一個項目可以提供給勞資雙方來簽團的協約不管是勞資雙方的一個協商的促進還是協商人才的培育等等所以這個部分的費用對我們來講很重要是不是請委員能夠同意我們還是"},{"start":12219.979,"end":12228.167,"text":"我可以同意改組決議可是我想申說我們國家的勞工這麼多然後你現在合併獎勵案件100件都不到"},{"start":12231.414,"end":12259.433,"text":"是,謝謝委員我們現在很努力的簽團體協約,因為團體協約他有的涉及到僱主跟工會之間要談一些比較長、冗長的一些協商那對工會來講也是需要學習那我們的團體協約的加速也跟委員報告我們增加的速度也慢慢有增加那我們當然知道這個團體協約加速要再更高了但是我們現在的加速四、五百件都有"},{"start":12259.893,"end":12272.76,"text":"那你覺得你明年可以做到幾件?我們希望我們的企業工會的團協好了我們都可以希望能夠保持到80家以上所以明年可以200嗎?部長說明一下"},{"start":12277.253,"end":12280.554,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案件"},{"start":12300.222,"end":12327.324,"text":"有沒有意願然後甚至是有些條約有沒有累積到成熟的條件那但是這部分我會非常非常重視因為就像大家現在對於低薪的問題那我們都希望假設未來可以透過更多的團協然後有更好的優於包括法規的這個薪資上面的約定我其實是非常希望可是我們實在是不容易一下子說出說一定會是多少因為這也牽涉到勞資上面的意願"},{"start":12327.824,"end":12352.801,"text":"因為我剛上網查了一下河沛山部長還有沈平均部長他們一年大概平均都是80到90但是您剛又說你有特別的重視所以我也希望您可以大概給自己設定一個目標我真的都希望我們能夠一直逐年的上升我希望可是因為這個事情他的不是掌握在我自己完全手上的因素比較多"},{"start":12353.956,"end":12368.686,"text":"因為這個會牽涉到工會跟資方他們對簽團協的意願可是我是深的希望說我們一年可以比一年多但是你因為你已經特別重視了所以你還是覺得你可以掌握的東西不多"},{"start":12369.926,"end":12395.436,"text":"我因為這個部分我沒有辦法去強迫或者是說我是用一種指令式的說大家都來簽他也不是這個也不是這個狀況但我們會盡力的去促成讓簽團協有更好的條件這是我們可以來做那你給自己設定多少目標嗎當然希望一年當然都希望能夠逐年增加這當然是我自己的希望所以你要比他們兩個做得更好好不好我也會更努力在這件事情上啦"},{"start":12395.916,"end":12420.827,"text":"那等一下我再跟您弄個主決議好是謝謝委員好83案改組決議84案好84案我們謝謝陳先生關心我們的調解的訓練也跟委員報告我們現在線上的調解人大概有3到3、400個那我們每一年大概訓練大概100多到200多差不多每一個人每兩年都會來受訓"},{"start":12422.929,"end":12444.02,"text":"現在的很多地方政府他也都在辦調解人的訓練所以我們都有在辦所以這個部分可不可以容許我們繼續努力我是要提出來2023年只有辦理這個勞資爭議調解人訓練一個場次業務研習三個場次而且全部加起來是連150人都不到"},{"start":12447.186,"end":12457.412,"text":"這個人數對比起全國的勞工人數是不是差太多了而且上次洪部長你有說你也要去幫忙協調交通部結果你有去嗎"},{"start":12461.601,"end":12485.442,"text":"中華電信啊你記得嗎有有有對對對你可以講一下結果是什麼嗎跟委員報告他們針對調薪有達到共識那至於延後退休的部分他們會因為那個設計比較複雜他們未來會繼續來協商那剛剛部長有提到就是說我們都有關心我有跟工會理事長也溝通了然後也跟交通部都有溝通"},{"start":12486.042,"end":12497.828,"text":"他們那時候表示因為中華電信公司是一個上市櫃的公司他們公司內部治理他們自己在協商還不至於說我們先主動進去來協商所以他們後來就很快就協商完成了"},{"start":12498.581,"end":12527.25,"text":"所以你們有用到你們的勞資爭議調解人的訓練嗎?跟委員報告勞資爭議調解人主要就是說勞工如果有勞資爭議他會向地方政府申請我們一年大概有2萬多間勞資爭議那我們按照勞資爭議處理法有個叫法定的調解人才能夠來做調解那法定調解人全台灣的現在通過了只有600多位真正有在線上調解的大概300到400所以這三四百位就是我們每一兩年就會請他一定要來上課"},{"start":12528.61,"end":12553.411,"text":"那我看起來好像146人不是很多但是差不多就是我們在線上調解的人都會來你的意思是說你目前只有300到400人對所以這300到400人每年大概就是150個人來上課對差不多就兩年我們希望他兩年就來上一次那地方政府也有辦那跟委員報告我們都有要求他一定每兩年都要回流多少時數沒有這個時數他就不可以再做調解人"},{"start":12554.332,"end":12573.827,"text":"所以調解人是在法定的資格不是任何人可以做的也不是說我們隨便去受訓練任何人就可以來做勞資正義的調解那他如果不來受訓抱歉他就不能繼續做調解業務那這個部分那我就改病案好了好病那個67王玉敏委員好病案終結一百謝謝委員"},{"start":12574.127,"end":12577.273,"text":"八十四案病動一百萬八十五案"},{"start":12585.993,"end":12611.406,"text":"85案病動100萬86案86案謝謝陳經委員關心不當行為財團委員會的生理效益我們就改組決議謝謝委員86案改組決議87案87案也謝謝陳經委員陳委員這個部分提到有關勞動教育的金額的不夠也跟委員報告我們除了這40萬我們有很重要的東西就是勞教醫網"},{"start":12612.446,"end":12633.236,"text":"然後希望大家在視訊的上課因為大家現在對勞動教育的概念是隨時有空你就上去看我們的課程然後現在勞動教育比較沒有辦法說我們每天就找大家來上課所以這40萬呢雖然經費不多但是我們都"},{"start":12634.096,"end":12651.736,"text":"很努力的來執行所以委員這個地方可不可以容許我們提一個報告你等一下我們再來溝通一下就是你這40萬到底你預計要多少人來上課你總要給自己設一個目標吧因為你現在等於是你都要大家上網來上這些課"},{"start":12652.657,"end":12674.074,"text":"是好那我等一下把那個大概一年我們勞教有很多人來上課我來跟委員做報告我會來處理一下好好87案保留好88案88案呃謝謝戴偉強委員關心哈有關那個離線權的部分哈那這部分我們會來做討論也會跟委員來做回報做個報告哈戴委員所以就那我們就保留嗎"},{"start":12683.011,"end":12699.999,"text":"這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們一定會做檢討報告。 這部分我們"},{"start":12707.502,"end":12726.31,"text":"現在你們勞動部說對離線權不宜納入現行的法規制度內但是然後原因是因為行業樣態太多元不宜一刀切但是其實有這個勞基法84之一責任制條款可以供參考是不是可以進一步推動說所謂的正面表列"},{"start":12727.69,"end":12755.602,"text":"對不對那其實這個離線權的提案提的倡議已經很久了那勞動部其實也在推輔導及推動工作與生活平衡這項政策那如果沒有繼續的推動這個離線權的話那工作跟生活要如何平衡啊那這部分我想就像你說的你們要檢討我們檢討是我們會提一個書面報告書面報告然後也是經委員會的委員同意是然後再解凍是"},{"start":12757.383,"end":12785.761,"text":"好,OK。 那88案並動1百萬。 8989案。 對。89案楊耀偉、謝楊耀偉關心我們的預算的執行也同意我們併案動結六期案1百萬。 89案並動1百萬。90案。 90案劉建國、劉委員關心我們這個因貿易自由化相關的一個預算的執行。跟我委員報告我們這一點錢我們都有做很多的那個"},{"start":12787.322,"end":12805.092,"text":"特別是容易受影響最會影響的產業的工會我們跟他合作然後讓他們跟他的會員上課主要是說我們也是希望讓大家知道說貿易自由化是一條路走下去可能對大家的競爭力或者對勞工朋友的一些工作會有一些影響"},{"start":12805.932,"end":12823.424,"text":"那辦理狀況也不錯那我們另外還有一筆我們是到學校去跟老師中職老師我們希望讓老師們啊高中老師回去到教堂跟學生講自由化並不可怕但是還要準備在治療上所以這個案子呢是不是也請我們能夠同意我們兵的時間凍結100萬好謝委員"},{"start":12827.276,"end":12850.949,"text":"九十案並動一百萬九十一案九十一案謝謝陳基金委員關心也是因貿易自由化的預算那這部分也謝謝委員同意我們改組決議九十一案改組決議是是嗎對改組決議好九十一案改組決議好第九十二案第九十二案謝謝盧縣議盧委員那關心因貿易自由化這部分那也同意改組決議"},{"start":12852.162,"end":12855.345,"text":"九十二案改組決議那剛剛那個勞動關係業務並動的部分我重複一次你們再確認這個67案、70案、71案、72案、73案、74案、75案、76案、78案、79案、80案、82案、84案、85案、88案、89案、90案並動並案凍結勞動關係業務100萬"},{"start":12881.916,"end":12884.138,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管"},{"start":12908.882,"end":12911.169,"text":"9393939393"},{"start":12914.765,"end":12938.103,"text":"請問三案是楊耀委員就是關心勞保有一個個案勞工因為因病離世沒有辦法領取一次級負資格的那個在死亡的時候不具勞保的身份這跟委員辦案是溝通是同意改成主決議也已經簽署了好楊委員對這是一個個案而已嗎還是對是個個案"},{"start":12940.592,"end":12942.258,"text":"這是保險司的業務要請保險司來說明"},{"start":12947.886,"end":12974.515,"text":"這是一個個案就是說有人是年資很長但是他退保了那如果是在保險有效期間死亡我們就給死亡給付嘛但是而且我們為了增加我們被保險給付的權益我們在有效中發生的疾病在退保後一年內死亡我們也給那另外就是說他如果年資超過了15年"},{"start":12975.675,"end":12990.733,"text":"那他符合我老年級戶一次的條件雖然來不及領老年級戶死亡了我們也是給醫屬其實我的老年死亡級戶是很寬的比較起國保要在有效中他沒有退保後一年內或者是公保都是比較鬆的"},{"start":12991.354,"end":13016.746,"text":"那這個案子剛好他就退保後才死亡然後他又沒有滿15年老年一次條件然後他的死亡又不是在有效中發生的病在退保後一年內死亡所以他就會都領不到那所以這個保險就是這樣我當然是已經同意改組決議不過我不大相信這是一個個案"},{"start":13018.307,"end":13031.273,"text":"他是有一個個案有個案浮現出來啦相同的情形我不相信就只有這一件好不好所以我們還是加強宣導把應該照顧勞動的部分還是要把它落實好不好謝謝委員"},{"start":13038.336,"end":13056.408,"text":"9393939393939393939393939393"},{"start":13057.011,"end":13086.144,"text":"同意改成主決議然後也已經簽署了王委員沒問題改主決議好94案改主決議95案95案那個王也是王振旭委員的提案他關心在印尼投資的部分的企業恐怕會有違反當地的一些勞動法令也希望我們基金運用局特別去注意在投資的時候能夠重視勞動的權益這個案子委員已經改主決議也已經簽署"},{"start":13087.464,"end":13112.917,"text":"對不起這邊我再確認一下就是我們有接受到這個財團法人環境權基金會他是一個民團他很關心跨國的一些企業有沒有違反當地在勞動權或者是對於勞動朋友造成的影響他們有發現在印尼的台商的企業跟人權報告裡面的確有相關的事情發生"},{"start":13113.917,"end":13126.831,"text":"所以他們很希望尤其有一些透過勞動基金運用的這些企業如果是在比如說這個案子在印尼有發生類似的狀況的話那我們應該要"},{"start":13129.614,"end":13158.232,"text":"希望能夠去了解甚至去釐清或者是做後面後續的處理這方面本來是要凍結10萬元就是希望能夠有一個比較完整的了解或者是確認當地的這些問題是我們也要去關心的部分那也會建議說能不能跟這個民團透過貴單位去跟他們做一些了解讓我們在看到報告的時候可以更完整"},{"start":13159.273,"end":13172.923,"text":"所以如果要改正主決意的話 那我們可以把這個書面報告能夠做得完整讓我們來參考 是改主決意我們會提書面報告 95案改主決意然後提書面報告 96案"},{"start":13174.594,"end":13193.143,"text":"九十六案劉建國委員他先保留好九十六案保留好九十七案"},{"start":13195.243,"end":13212.726,"text":"97案是陳慶輝委員他關心那個職工福利的部分也希望我們能夠多考量一下這個就這樣推廣職工福利那同意改為凍結五萬元一千數97案號凍結五萬元97、98、99都是我的那97、98、99都已經改主決議而且改凍結數了"},{"start":13222.381,"end":13228.744,"text":"97改動5萬元98改主決是1999也是凍結20萬元希望能夠同委員也同意並動是並動是第100案99跟100是同樣的科目同一個那邊是並動99是動20萬同意並動並100案"},{"start":13252.883,"end":13260.491,"text":"一百案是劉委員來的,等一下劉委員你96案要先保留還是?"},{"start":13267.765,"end":13272.311,"text":"那個不是要改組決議?對,96案。 96案改組決議,跟楊耀偉沒關係,謝謝96案改組決議,他剛剛100案,接下來100案6位委員還有100案"},{"start":13282.905,"end":13300.793,"text":"一般案因為曾經會委員有動20萬那委員也關心員工協助方案能夠推廣到事業單位所以是不是能夠也能夠請委員支持就動20萬然後同意並動跟99案並動20萬"},{"start":13305.559,"end":13321.712,"text":"我不叫做也關心員工席數方案本來就很關心這個是我已經搞兩三年了勞動部就要以身作則嘛這跟楊委員要也沒有關係所以基本上你說怎樣要凍結20萬元然後同意並動"},{"start":13328.798,"end":13329.759,"text":"第101案是陳盈委員,她是不是先保留,因為委員不在現場"},{"start":13347.376,"end":13357.186,"text":"一零一案保留一零二案一零二案是陳清晖委員他是對我們勞退的部分希望推廣數位推廣的方式他改組決議已經簽署一零三案"},{"start":13363.512,"end":13391.244,"text":"謝謝委員。103案也是陳清輝委員關心勞動基金的監理也同意改組約議。沒有沒有沒有,對不起對不起。103案請尊重我一下。103案我希望可以保留送協商。原因是什麼呢?原因是因為勞動基金已經有很多弊案的記錄而且至今勞動部都還在訴訟的階段。結果你們看到這個勞動基金監察會的召集人"},{"start":13392.624,"end":13409.37,"text":"這個是陳明仁次長他今天有來嗎?次長陳明仁他是勞動基金監理會的召集人他今年已經3個月缺席主持了9月10月11月你們連自己都不開會了還要我們編預算給你"},{"start":13411.516,"end":13425.037,"text":"我們有開會跟委員報告那個我們每個月都有按期在開會我知道但是你們沒有重視啊因為你們的主持人自己都召集人自己都缺席三個月啦是不是部長部長說明"},{"start":13429.11,"end":13448.235,"text":"那個跟成員說明喔其實成年次長他現在尤其是我們因為勞動部9月以後其實我們有些次長的人士確實有些空缺那其實成年次長從9月以後其實擔負勞動部裡面非常非常多的工作"},{"start":13449.369,"end":13469.261,"text":"那他其實非常非常努力他並不是不重視這件事情那剛才在講到勞動基金的部分確實過去是有一些弊端可是這幾年其實陸陸續續其實也改善了很多我覺得這部分其實都可以供國會來做檢視那我也希望趕快把我們這個次長的空缺趕快補上"},{"start":13470.162,"end":13495.742,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":13496.584,"end":13508.092,"text":"那104案就保留宋協商104已經改組決議了104是動五萬元一千數謝謝委員動五萬元104案動五萬我們先休息休息到一點再繼續審查我們先休息"},{"start":13528.855,"end":13553.267,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及�"},{"start":13561.008,"end":13571.975,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":13582.961,"end":13600.094,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":13600.234,"end":13600.254,"text":"委員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":13618.097,"end":13642.243,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環"},{"start":13643.143,"end":13664.378,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及重建中心114年度中央政府"},{"start":13675.179,"end":13689.038,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第13會期社會福利及基金預算案關"},{"start":13697.909,"end":13719.542,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、"},{"start":13723.865,"end":13724.926,"text":"請勞動部主管及基金預算"},{"start":13748.758,"end":13762.188,"text":"就請部長回答吧,部長可以回答的很明確當然就可以註明了,對嗎?明年3月送進來,4月送進來,要一個很明確的經驗我們勞動部送我們可以掌握時期,就是行政院總領導人那個時候還沒有辦法"},{"start":13766.191,"end":13784.369,"text":"但是至少送部裡面 那你們送業會的時間要押出來 應該開始在籌儲了 送行政院嗎 這是我們勞動部送行政院的時間 你們是最關鍵 對不對 那你們內部討論出來趕快去跟部長商 要給一個明確的時間 我覺得因為外界都在看 你們自己也應該設定一個目標"},{"start":13789.654,"end":13800.426,"text":"對阿,因為這個修法很重要。好,對對對對,你先部長商量,待會你們明確回答你們預計什麼時候送的阿,如果你們明確回答當然就可以順便報告。好,謝謝。"},{"start":13811.132,"end":13838.03,"text":"有四份那第一份是身心障礙者權益保障法比較簡單的免徵法案希望公司頂高站再設置一個身心障礙者專用指控方法第二份也是相對簡單的就是在船票的部分我們希望因為討論到現在外籍的"},{"start":13840.271,"end":13840.531,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":13860.396,"end":13863.34,"text":"黨政軍退出媒體的相關修改黨政軍退出媒體的相關修改"},{"start":13877.817,"end":13882.702,"text":"這兩個都是黨政經科書媒體,一個是衛星黨桌的,一個是郵遷的,就是電視台跟資料媒體這樣"},{"start":13901.262,"end":13909.466,"text":"黨政軍推出媒體?沒有提出媒體?沒有,還是確保媒體的中立。確保媒體的中立?是。謝謝委員,謝謝。"},{"start":13918.49,"end":13946.544,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":13946.988,"end":13967.339,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於"},{"start":13979.32,"end":13991.685,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第3會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管"},{"start":13996.648,"end":14012.424,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第3會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管"},{"start":14019.292,"end":14025.45,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部"},{"start":16423.51,"end":16428.071,"text":"好我們繼續開會105萬報告委員這個105萬的部分105萬的話是圖委員有關關心這個音樂會的這個部分那之前已經有跟委員辦公室邊有報告說我們辦理音樂會的"},{"start":16451.737,"end":16479.669,"text":"這個和相關的宣導的這個用意其實是希望有更多的一個層面來對性別平等工作法做更多的落實讓更多的民眾知道絕對沒有說是為了為了一些想要說去逢雲拍馬的這樣的情況那這個部分的話我們是希望說能夠再次跟委員爭取支持那是不是可以不要凍結這個預算"},{"start":16487.165,"end":16506.682,"text":"市長那後來有主動意有調整嗎?是不是?那個好像有重新就是有送一個希望組決議的部分是不是能夠委員這邊可以接受那我們這邊的話包括日後的相關的宣導的各項措施都會盡力再來做改善"},{"start":16507.6,"end":16508.04,"text":"好部長"},{"start":16532.369,"end":16547.698,"text":"那個第一個很謝謝拓遠的監督啦吼那我想其實這個立法院其實對於這場音樂會其實也有很多的指教那我其實我們也已經有交代我們的業務的同仁針對現在立法院的指教"},{"start":16548.158,"end":16568.603,"text":"議員８立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華"},{"start":16576.482,"end":16576.502,"text":"106案"},{"start":16605.016,"end":16609.982,"text":"106案的部分因為王育民委員現在沒有在現場是不是保留到後面106案保留107案"},{"start":16612.352,"end":16638.199,"text":"一百零七案的部分那個王委員有簽字同意做文字修正然後並動五十萬那也跟各位委員報告因為後面有一位委員的部分他是並動一百萬那這個部分的話我們那時候有跟王委員說如果其他的委員有並動的數字比較高就是合併來處理是我原則上同意不過真的對於這個彈性暈假齁"},{"start":16640.72,"end":16641.22,"text":"107案就是病棟"},{"start":16666.618,"end":16669.761,"text":"嗯,就連後面是一百萬。 病棟一百萬?"},{"start":16669.761,"end":16671.843,"text":"是。 是。 病哪一個啊?"},{"start":16671.843,"end":16683.395,"text":"病那個後面的118案的部分。 118。 118案那個。 可是那個先。 科目的話。"},{"start":16685.56,"end":16708.075,"text":"科目還是那個就是科目就是勞動條件及就業平等業務就是最大的這一支中的那我們就先107案就是同意並動並並動然後那等一下到後面再再是不好意思我剛剛那個在電梯有聽到106案念過去所以可不可以回來一下差一點點好106案好"},{"start":16710.496,"end":16725.127,"text":"那個106案因為我關切的是我們勞工的這個工時喔就是也是不減反增齁那這個在世界排名排名那麼前面這個是不光彩的記錄啦所以這個是勞動部應該要有責任齁怎麼樣幫助我們台灣的勞工不要過勞然後有效的"},{"start":16730.211,"end":16745.728,"text":"降低他們這個公使這個應該是要越來越減少才對但是不減反正我覺得這個就要好好檢討所以我提的這個案子呢我想就送那個協商到協商的時候我們再來好好討論謝謝"},{"start":16752.506,"end":16771.877,"text":"那我114因為還沒有到那裡啊所以那個報告委員可不可以給我說明一下那個跟委員報告齁其實這邊的講的平均公時每年在比的各國那個數字他是平均每人的年總公時"},{"start":16772.984,"end":16793.658,"text":"那這個在計算的時候是把所有的受僱者一起加來平均裡面會包括了全時工作者也會包括部分工時part-time的人那我們在發現說奇怪為什麼我們國家應該沒有沒有那麼樣的嚴重要嚴重也是日本韓國會比我們嚴重啊怎麼會我們數字比他們高那麼多"},{"start":16794.258,"end":16811.948,"text":"後來就去看還有一個關鍵性的因素就是我們國家的那個部分工時的工作者只有長期都是百分之三點幾那日本的話他的部分工時的工作者占他的就業的比例是百分之二十四點八"},{"start":16812.668,"end":16831.248,"text":"那韓國的話占百分之十六點幾也就是說如果一百個人裡面越多部分工時的工作者他下去平均的話他的數字就會比較低那這個是他結構性的因素那換回過頭來我們看如果他在同"},{"start":16831.849,"end":16851.903,"text":"同樣就全時工作者來去做對比的話這三個國家我國是41.5小時一個禮拜日本的話是42.9小時韓國是43.8小時那這個40幾小時其實跟我們的法定正常工時一週40小時差距還是很有限"},{"start":16852.983,"end":16873.573,"text":"最主要的情況就是我們真的是部分工時的人比較低部分工時的人比較低是好還是不好其實相對的也就講非典的人數比較少非典型工作的大家全時工作比較多大家工作是穩定的所以這個數字高如果要去解讀純粹用數字高低解讀當然看起來不好看"},{"start":16874.033,"end":16885.698,"text":"但是從背後的結構因素如果下去看的時候其實我們的勞動力的人口他的工作是一個相對穩定的人口這個是要跟委員報告澄清的"},{"start":16886.926,"end":16912.602,"text":"好這個是你們的澄清但是我也請勞動部看到一個現況其實我們一直在說臺灣的這個工時之前勞發署北分署爆發的這一個打假卡其實這不是只有在公部門這個我想部長你應該你之前在民間其實我們有一些服務業甚至包括是在醫院或是在媒體"},{"start":16913.743,"end":16932.952,"text":"等有些服務時數非常高的他們其實你可能看到的數字還是少了啦其實在實務上面如果你們不知道那就真的是太扯了齁其實還是有蠻多的企業他其實是員工在打夾卡明明就是已經還沒有下班"},{"start":16933.852,"end":16948.371,"text":"因為礙於勞基法的規定所以那個卡看起來是好看的但是它的工時有沒有比這個長有那我覺得這個都是你們整個要去好好去檢討的就是那個血汗的現象"},{"start":16949.432,"end":16967.603,"text":"真的不是你表面數字看到這樣而已而那個就是你們的功課我覺得台灣勞工過勞的問題他沒有你講的就是說因為我們把這個部分工時我們這個比較多所以這樣看起來跟日韓其實差不多日韓也很血汗"},{"start":16968.263,"end":16969.184,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管"},{"start":16984.219,"end":17004.586,"text":"你有沒有辦法真的去做一些調整跟改善我想這個是你們應該要全力以赴的目標好不好那個我根本補充吼剛剛大安市長補充的是比較去跟日韓比較可是我並我們並沒有覺得在這個比較之下我們的工時就是沒有問題的或我們就很滿意啦吼"},{"start":17005.984,"end":17033.692,"text":"對勞工來說整體公使的負擔當然都應該還要更大的下降的空間我想這事情是我們是很清楚的所以勢必我認為對公使的問題我們怎麼樣進一步的來去做更多的改善跟降低勞工負擔這是我們也是非常非常放在心上的事情只是就是說也是希望說能夠這個當然在這提案裡面還是希望能夠爭取這個是不是能夠把凍結的數字可以下降包括其實可以做一個"},{"start":17034.292,"end":17034.772,"text":"一百零七一百零八案"},{"start":17063.206,"end":17077.362,"text":"108案的部分的話委員關心的是有關那個靠近65歲的時候會有逼退的這個部分那已經跟委員這邊來說明那委員已經有同意簽字那同意做並動50萬後面我們會提相關的報告"},{"start":17081.212,"end":17104.426,"text":"好 林委員我這邊還是要說一下第一個本來就有新聞事件再加上我們辦公室受理了好幾起的這樣的一個案子就是說50歲、55歲就被逼退甚至用優退作為你不得拒絕的理由事實上我沒有想要離開這個職場可是沒有辦法"},{"start":17105.322,"end":17134.185,"text":"那這樣的狀況底下感覺現在是拿到很多可是它整個的你55歲之後你要再去找其他的工作事實上是不容易的所以才會希望說這個我諮詢也有一兩次了可是始終還是沒有得到比較好的答案說是不是可以去了解而不是你們現在到時候我也希望你們報告能夠交得很清楚因為有時候勞工礙於年齡壓力就求職不易有很多的理由"},{"start":17134.773,"end":17136.313,"text":"公務及基金預算書案公務及基金預算書案公務及基金預算書案"},{"start":17163.485,"end":17163.906,"text":"謝謝委員 這個報告我們會盡量來周延"},{"start":17185.93,"end":17211.73,"text":"好那108案就是併動50萬109案109案的部分是委員王委員這邊有關心到空服員公會的這些申訴競爲歧視庫裝的這個事情那其實我們大概在處理上面已經有第一時間找各國籍航空來去做相關的處理那包括星宇航空今年的9月大概就已經可以提供庫裝了"},{"start":17213.732,"end":17231.663,"text":"給勞工選擇那大一點的航空公司像華航利榮大概明年的三四月也都可以提供庫裝讓他的員工來做選擇那這個部分後續還有包括過服役的相關的促進的指引的部分我們也會來進行那感謝委員已經有簽字同意可以做並動50萬109案並動50萬110案"},{"start":17239.792,"end":17253.788,"text":"110案是陳委員這邊有提到有關勞動基準諮詢會的這個部分希望增加多一些的對話的機制那這個我們所謂的勞動基準諮詢會如果有提案的話都應"},{"start":17254.469,"end":17271.039,"text":"都應該要先做一些勞資的協議那包括如果他要評估34條36條的這些例外特殊規定的時候都要從目的事業主管機關去會商勞資雙方的意見那認為有必要評估了以後再送到我們勞動部來做後續勞動基準諮詢會的一些討論"},{"start":17275.442,"end":17288.053,"text":"那所以在這個部分的話是不是可以爭取到委員可以同意說修改科目為勞動條件及就業平等業務然後可以做一些並動然後我們會來提報書面的改善報告"},{"start":17289.102,"end":17316.532,"text":"陳委員好我也會想要聽一下就是部長要怎麼承諾明年度在社會對話的作業上能夠提升尤其是勞基法修法因為我們有看到這兩次的新聞事件其實您是沒有出席有人在跟你喊話但是你兩樣都沒有出席的這樣子要如何去對我們部裡面的同仁示範您有在做社會對話的作業上提升呢"},{"start":17324.696,"end":17338.094,"text":"嗯我想其實勞基法的修法其實這個其實每一次答案都是非常非常重大的這個應該都是非常非常重大的修法那到底勞基法接下來要不要修這個問題"},{"start":17339.856,"end":17362.882,"text":"我自己覺得這都是一定是非常非常非常審慎的事情那這個審慎的前面不管是勞方工會或者是資方我想其實相關的聲音我們其實絕對會都會來做收集對這個這個是幾乎是一定的啦因為在這麼重大的社會議題裡面你如果不掌握如果不去掌握各方的各種重要的意見的話"},{"start":17364.022,"end":17387.332,"text":"我想這個社會很難接受我希望未來部長您在這些社會對話的現場如果有機會的話您可以出現一下會比較好其實我我沒有我我其實不會迴避這些社會對話比方說像這幾天大家在處理像中運的這個勞資的爭議的問題其實我當然我們都是我自己就出席嗎我自己就參與"},{"start":17388.356,"end":17397.301,"text":"好那我們等一下我等一下跟跟他們處理和保留好110案保留111案"},{"start":17400.09,"end":17423.599,"text":"111案是廖委員這邊那廖委員這邊是因為勞動條件及就業平等的預算當然委員關心的是職安署相關的業務以及發展署落實的情形是有關這個霸凌職務不法侵害的相關預防計劃的部分那職安署其實有會同新北已經有之前有去做過一些勞檢那後面也有"},{"start":17424.619,"end":17448.273,"text":"也有相關訂定的一些輔導的一個計畫大概從11月25日開始到這個月的18日會完結那這個部分的話因為是勞動條件及就業平等的業務的計畫而預算是不是可以向委員爭取保留說爭取說是併動50萬然後我們後面提書面報告做完整說明"},{"start":17454.054,"end":17476.039,"text":"一百一十二案是陳委員的案子那有關橋外生國際生產學合作的這個部分那其實發展署也都有跟教育部共同建立一個機制會來做查核那如果是有涉及到違反法令的部分還會會同治安署來下去做一些檢查那是不是可以爭取說這個預算的"},{"start":17477.779,"end":17482.13,"text":"科目可以更改為整個勞動條件及就業平等的業務然後並動50萬我們會提書面報告說明"},{"start":17486.095,"end":17507.648,"text":"我會提出這個是因為最近的新聞事件真的很多就這些國際學生來臺灣結果因為產學合作建教合作等等的勞動爭議那其中也部分包括我國的學生族群但是因為這些學生他們真的不斷的在反應被壓榨等等的事情所以我希望"},{"start":17508.969,"end":17532.668,"text":"你可以怎麼樣做來做一個報告來跟我們呈現說你之後要怎麼加強公使還有特別保護法的法制因為我們到教育部那邊去質詢可是其實教育部就全部都推給勞動部好沒關係如果教育部說不是他們的需要勞檢我們一定會請我們治安署幫忙好那我們保留"},{"start":17533.902,"end":17549.606,"text":"好,112案保留,113案廖委員不在齁,我們先保留好,114案嗯,114案我先跟王明委員的106案並案因為我們倆的理由是一樣的,我在這邊就不重複說了106案保留協商對,保留送協商"},{"start":17560.117,"end":17569.663,"text":"一百一十四就保留送協商一百一十五廖委員不在我們就先保留一百一十六"},{"start":17571.587,"end":17596.081,"text":"116案是留委員這邊有提案關心彈性運營留職停薪這邊目前感覺事辦的成效好像加速沒有很多希望督促我們再來做一些改善那我們是不是可以拜託委員這邊我們會來做在今年的年底ending以後會在明年初來做焦點座談把問題理解清楚一點"},{"start":17596.701,"end":17619.009,"text":"然後看看勞工到底問題需求在哪裡那雇主的困難點在哪裡我們再把那些焦點抓出來那目前大概之前其中報告有發現可能是他們需要的是單點的假或者是要請假的彈性更多他不見得是一種像留職停薪那樣的一個長一段時間的那個概念"},{"start":17619.449,"end":17639.374,"text":"目前會來請這種短期的好像他需求是是更短期的那個點狀的這個問題所以這個目前是我們在其中報告有發現的這個情況那下一次在期末報告整個ending以後我們是把希望把相關的問題整理出來更具體一點然後那個因為黃部長有說他這個親職價這一塊他會很關心他整體來做盤點"},{"start":17643.055,"end":17652.724,"text":"那提出一個整套的一個整體性的一些一些概念和一些方案那是不是可以爭取說修改科目為勞動條件及就業評等業務然後並且並動50萬?"},{"start":17652.724,"end":17652.744,"text":"劉委員"},{"start":17660.121,"end":17662.844,"text":"我提出來這是不是一個事實嗎?"},{"start":17662.844,"end":17665.206,"text":"是是嗎?"},{"start":17665.206,"end":17682.102,"text":"是已經是一個事實了你們的其中到期末什麼時候做出來?期末的因為我們到12月底所有的公司的話就會事辦結束那我們會再把相關的公司再找過來應該在明年的"},{"start":17682.782,"end":17710.587,"text":"一月二月因為過年前他們比較忙一點大概說第一季裡面會完成這個期末的這個整個焦點座談和把相關的問題整理出來其中到期末又經歷多少時間大概三個多月三個多月的時間本來是在九月多的時候做其中的一些所以我們這個事辦計畫就是成如那個所講的就是有將近七成六的公司都掛零這是事實"},{"start":17711.347,"end":17732.067,"text":"後來的話有增加一點有增加一些1.4增加7.6加0.1後來的話應該有再增加到有比較多的加數和他的人數有實施的這個情況增加多少嗎?發現嗎?你是7成越多掛零你現在是增加7.7也掛零還是變成7.5掛零"},{"start":17737.012,"end":17760.411,"text":"報告委員其實也增加沒有很多多增加了一兩家是我們從後台資料先看的但是我們大概會在在整個結束以後我們還是找出來是說你為什麼不實施或是員工為什麼不申請只會請他來講清楚都到底他們的點會卡在哪裡那我們一起把那個點找出來再看看後面怎麼樣去調那個未來要處理的方向"},{"start":17761.072,"end":17768.373,"text":"不是,我可能要提一點啦齁,這個也給部長、給各機關所長做參考。基本上我們都會去支持事辦計畫。"},{"start":17771.26,"end":17794.062,"text":"但是示範計畫沒有因為它是示範計畫就不用考核嘛應該是這麼說嘛對不對那你如果期中的時候就已經很清楚知道有7x6的加數都掛零那你要到期末的時候你跟我講之後再增加一兩加這個顯然這種示範計畫就期中你就該結束了你不需要到期末了"},{"start":17795.828,"end":17816.033,"text":"不然你的事辦計畫的定義是什麼?邏輯是什麼?範圍是什麼?你要事辦嘛,對不對?你開始一直到期中是這樣的一個效益,然後期中鍋已經有人點出來了,那你到期末還是這樣的效益,這個事辦計畫有需要再走下去嗎?"},{"start":17816.993,"end":17845.998,"text":"呃因為這個跟委員報告因為時程他確實很短大概從今年的5月開始一直到年底所以大概因為現在距離到ending的時間年底也很近了啦齁那我知道委員提案的時間當然比較早一點那現在因為時間點已經也到年底了我們快要結束了這個事情我們把它整體的把這個問題釐清清楚我們會很很詳細的把相關的大家需求的問題點找出來再來"},{"start":17846.938,"end":17859.591,"text":"談點說後面的話用什麼樣的方式什麼樣的政策或者說什麼樣的法律的修正看是不是能夠切合回來我們大家勞資雙方都可以接受的那個需求點"},{"start":17862.338,"end":17884.638,"text":"因為我不曉得為什麼你們提這個示範計畫,然後反而在執行上有這樣的落差啦,這個蠻大的落差嘛,對不對?然後雖然時間很短我知道,但是既然提這個示範計畫當然就希望未來它可行的一個政策,然後我們再去推動嘛,那顯然這樣是夭折嘛。"},{"start":17886.26,"end":17903.659,"text":"我先跟委員報告因為我剛剛一開始有說明說我們大概在期中計畫的時候發現說大家把這些使用的話是拿來處理單點的那個需求所以可能有一天的有兩天的公司就放開給他選他也是來申請"},{"start":17904.58,"end":17930.325,"text":"那這個一天兩天的後來也有一些公司講他有自己員工發現說一天兩天他就乾脆不要申請留庭他因為公司有的會來參加這個他又是會給假給大方一點的這些事業單位他也許就有一些三天五天的家庭照顧假是有薪的又或者其他有幼兒照顧假他們自己有一些憂鬱法令的假所以當他員工有這個需求的時候他先一天兩天我就請那個假就好啦"},{"start":17930.945,"end":17959.054,"text":"他就不用再跑到繞一圈到劉執庭新再回來那當初在大家這個劉執庭新縮短的時候大家其實這個概念在想的是那個沒有錢嘛照顧沒有錢的問題看看能不能從劉庭的那邊去現在有的八成的這個部分來去cover一些但是有一些公司他已經本身有比較優厚的他的單點的他就這樣走處理了那我們這個過程中確實有發現這樣的情況是那個需求面和他的那個"},{"start":17960.694,"end":17980.063,"text":"實際上提供的東西來講有一些落差所以未來在設計制度上面要怎麼思考這個部分是從流停這邊來處理還是整體的架來處理我們部長說會來整體的其實今天會有這個事辦流停也是當初洪部長在當立委的時候質詢的時候才出來有這個東西這個主席我可以講話一下"},{"start":17985.825,"end":18012.935,"text":"提案人可不可以我也來講一下這個事辦計畫注定要失敗因為一開始就沒有人主動要參加而你去找來參加實驗的都是那個輪三班制的很多國營事業單位輪三班制輪三班制的人員工一個蘿蔔一個坑本來你叫他要去辦這個事辦計畫就注定要失敗了三班制過去的勞基法修法的爭議最困難就是輪班制的人力不足嘛"},{"start":18013.715,"end":18027.728,"text":"所以你這個計畫一開始就跟你講我們就跟你講你現在回頭來說原來勞工需要的是單點單日你在示範計畫的時候我就跟你講要以一天或半天為單位你現在說要至少要五天"},{"start":18028.889,"end":18049.625,"text":"一個蘿蔔一個坑三班制都已經很困難了你一次叫他請五天那代班的人力要去哪裡長出來所以這個你的事辦計劃當初我們就跟你溝通了這本來就我們一直在民間團體民間組織我們一直托盟一直在呼籲一直呼籲把你的這個育嬰留庭假"},{"start":18050.185,"end":18074.708,"text":"天數不變然後那個給付也不用雇主去給付把它更彈性化然後而且年齡要放寬到12歲8歲10歲都有結果你就不要你通通都叫示範計畫也不願意照民間的版本去示範出來然後看他的彈性到底有沒有可行結果你一意孤行那注定到的是失敗啊"},{"start":18075.748,"end":18093.548,"text":"那個我補充好第一個回應幾位委員好這個我想談心價值示範的問題在未還委員會我想很多人都非常非常關心了好那尤其是那時候示範計劃提出來的時候其實很多人也都指教過第一個這個數據出來我其實當然非常不滿意了"},{"start":18095.11,"end":18106.922,"text":"部長他本來就是做一個故意會失敗的計畫啦我們都知道故意你一個方案一定會失敗然後告訴大家說彈性運營價不可行他們當時就是這樣先這個預設的立場要讓他失敗當然不可行啊"},{"start":18114.209,"end":18141.697,"text":"就是就目前這個事辦計劃按照目前這個數據來看勢必是需要徹底檢討的甚至這裡面可能很多一開始在這個設計這個事辦計劃一些原初的框架的構想我覺得恐怕都是需要重新再想過的所以我認為這件事情我想很多委員都非常非常重視尤其是在照顧不離職的這個目標之下那我們會來徹底檢討這件事情也需要徹底檢討這件事情"},{"start":18142.325,"end":18168.044,"text":"部長你說徹底檢討太簡單了徹底檢討四個字那要怎麼檢討你覺得方向是怎麼樣會有一個新的示範計畫嗎新的示範計畫還是直接我們就也不用了大家討論一下覺得民間托盟的版本概念也很不錯那企業主可能當然也覺得很好啊搞不好他們沒有反對的聲音啊你不要那麼長五天你搞不好一天那你的這個代理人的問題反而比較小欸"},{"start":18168.564,"end":18195.741,"text":"那個我自己認為勢必這個計劃可以要讓這個運價的彈性的程度要再更高能夠請的更靈活因為這大概是一定是需要去調整的方向而不是原本的那樣子的這個時間的長短我認為至少這個部分是勢必需要調整更靈活更靈活的更靈活的我的意思是說那你在執行面上你覺得還會再有一個事辦計劃嗎"},{"start":18197.442,"end":18222.46,"text":"我跟委員說明我確實我們可能要在一些細的資料來做一輪的檢討才比較能夠判斷是不是要再有一個比較不一樣的事辦計劃還是真的能夠直接規劃就上路因為直接規劃就上路確實是涉及到的因為少子化的問題很嚴重龍年龍年的人口出生的人數比虎年還要更少大家都知道國安危機已經真的來了"},{"start":18223.681,"end":18248.734,"text":"所以國家要怎麼做做到友善人家不是生小孩也不是給錢而已要陪伴而陪伴最關鍵的父母受雇者就是你的業務主管對啊你都知道但我們不能拖但我的意思是說你都知道問題但我們不能再拖下去你還再拖一年再試辦再拖一年再試辦再拖一年再研議再拖一年再試辦再拖一年"},{"start":18249.935,"end":18252.299,"text":"這個反...我也不希望是這樣子這個我們現在趕快來當我們是帕會、救會的時候"},{"start":18258.907,"end":18281.616,"text":"王委員 這個議題的確是非常重要委員會其實也開過公聽會有非常多的團體大家都是希望說我們在這一個有關於育嬰價或者是增加親子價的部分應該更有彈性然後去支持我們的新手父母讓他去善盡他這個親子的角色"},{"start":18282.176,"end":18296.312,"text":"那這個也是在回應我們現在少子化一個很重要的政策那我認為這件事情應該是委員會這邊要安排一個他們檢討的專報還有他重新就是應該要怎麼樣去調整針對他現在失敗然後應該要怎麼樣重新再調整"},{"start":18302.239,"end":18318.924,"text":"還有搭配未來的修法我認為這件事情其實是非常重要的這關乎我們國家的未來也關乎我們要怎麼去鼓勵年輕人讓他生了孩子之後真的是政府的政策有在支撐他們然後企業的力量也願意進來給他們這個親子方面的彈性所以這個可能"},{"start":18323.866,"end":18350.436,"text":"我是建議不只是在預算上面委員有這樣的提案更是在委員會要針對這件事情要重排一次的專報跟檢討跟很明確的也拜託部長回去就是你的回應是比較是方向性的你都覺得很重要但是其實是沒有啟程我覺得這件事情您要找你們相關的部門討論出來設定一個目標有一個啟程然後就往這個方向來做這個建議召委謝謝好"},{"start":18353.72,"end":18360.189,"text":"最後呼籲林委員還有王委員如果依照現在小子化的程度2050年可能我們升不到8萬人"},{"start":18362.221,"end":18386.695,"text":"對,所以這個問題其實是馬上要解決的那也很很榮幸啦因為之前洪部長很多的發言其實都是為了輕職假彈性的放假等等甚至在總諮詢的場合也都有諮詢到其實勞研所做的報告裡面真的是很不錯裡面你們有講到北歐一些國家比如說爸爸可以請好幾個月如果爸爸不請媽媽一定不能拿來用"},{"start":18387.795,"end":18413.559,"text":"像這樣子鼓勵多少企業以上的人調查一下他們的比例多少比例一定鼓勵他們一定要請這個爸爸的育嬰假什麼這都是一些很好的運用方法否則你如果沒有在結構上做調整只是補助脫嬰然後補助這個補助那個都要很零碎的去撿完全沒有辦法去促進我們國家的生育率"},{"start":18415.425,"end":18436.95,"text":"林委員我要再跟部長溝通一下就是說因為我們知道我們行政部門有行政部門的考量他也是要擔心勞僱雙方到底可不可執行那以前業務單位其實有談到一點就是說其實雖然雇主不用再給錢"},{"start":18437.85,"end":18457.036,"text":"而且運營留庭的價的天數也一樣可是會增加僱主的行政管理的成本和困難度那我覺得這個就政府可以做的就是說現在都AI化了你一個行政管理你要怎麼計算薪資那天數請了多少天他一共請了幾個小時"},{"start":18458.797,"end":18461.618,"text":"這個對僱主來講中小企業的確是很麻煩而且他們難以計算阿也沒辦法一個人力還要每天在算財那個就是政府的責任阿都AI時代了難道你們不能開發出一個軟體一個讓所有這個中小企業主可以簡易使用的那個程式的使用的可靜性高的然後操作性是很簡易的"},{"start":18486.203,"end":18495.888,"text":"那政府應該很務實的去把這個問題給解決掉 這個也是說要部長你可能要需要專業的人力來 我們的確要想到部主每天都要扣你一天薪兩天薪 這樣他要怎麼算會算 還算八年 這八年要怎麼累積 這個行政管理成本對部主來講的確是頭一個頭兩個大"},{"start":18507.853,"end":18515.658,"text":"那這個東西我覺得政府責無旁貸而且應該要做得到而且也不是多麼困難的是幫僱主把這一方面的麻煩扛起來然後創造勞僱雙方雙贏然後幫國家增加更多的這個後備軍不好意思說是什麼樣的後備軍生子勞動力的再生產這個很重要啊"},{"start":18532.748,"end":18549.872,"text":"我覺得創造多贏不是只有雙贏不是牢固而已連國家都要贏社會也會贏所以拜託這個部分就責無旁貸可以去索賀可以做的好那那個116案、117案、118案、119案、120案、121、122、123、124這個都是相同嗎科目相同"},{"start":18569.352,"end":18580.969,"text":"那個,劉委員,你講解?對,我還要講解嗎?你還要講解?我不曉得,抱歉,不曉得,提這案挑起這麼多的,大家"},{"start":18581.75,"end":18605.204,"text":"大家可以這樣共同討論本席與有榮焉所以然後此事辦計畫經過這個審慎討論之後檢視完確定是失敗的一個事辦計畫所以本席就依照本席原有的提案建立就三檢就100並凍結100待勞動部改善上述問題之後"},{"start":18610.087,"end":18616.551,"text":"是要專報還是順便報告,使得動輸。好,謝謝。以上本人再次表達,謝謝。"},{"start":18627.857,"end":18655.117,"text":"我個人的提案是重建十分之一因為我的不是只有孕嫁談性化還有有薪流產假還有有薪家庭照顧假我們的意思是說如果你把這個談性育兒假放寬了其實你也cover到有薪家庭照顧假去了但我的另外一個大家可能沒有談到是因為我有一個三個月以下的有薪流產假"},{"start":18656.557,"end":18680.817,"text":"這個地方都沒有討論到有新流產價許民春部長在的時候都說有得利有得利現在說勞調師現在如果起來講就說沒得利就要講改良資金沒錢的問題那個跟委員報告說明我是不是能夠爭取因為坦白說在這部分其實要做的工作還很多我是希望說是不是可以不要刪減那用凍結我們用凍結的方式"},{"start":18681.858,"end":18705.498,"text":"那凍結的條件我是認為勢必我們要拿出一個更具體的方案到委員會來一面爭取大家的討論所以是不是能夠讓我們想一個凍結的數可不可以不要刪減好不好因為這個地方要做工作很多就像剛才林淑芬委員在講的有些技術面軟體的部分如果勞動部可以提供給"},{"start":18706.92,"end":18720.181,"text":"我們這些僱主尤其是比較中小企業僱主一個比較好的模板來去做相關管理的這個簡化或者是比較容易的話我覺得這個好做可是這些確實都需要一些經費來去做來去執行這些業務"},{"start":18721.81,"end":18743.115,"text":"現在目前有三件就劉委員嘛劉委員有提出來對啦我原本也是想說改動嘛因為市長說這個是部長在當委員的提案嘛所以我們就要加嚴處理嘛是這個樣子嘛對不對這個都有錄影錄音的啊對不對你站這麼久也是因為要特別看到部長他要不要承擔起來嘛所以反正就是凍結"},{"start":18744.315,"end":18745.136,"text":"同意科目阿"},{"start":18769.734,"end":18773.136,"text":"因為你不能說小孩生育出來就居功絕為就那個那個生育那個叫什麼兩個月"},{"start":18795.034,"end":18798.856,"text":"對,可以有這個產價。 阿誰會出來?"},{"start":18798.856,"end":18800.237,"text":"流產的?"},{"start":18800.237,"end":18802.018,"text":"阿就沒有?"},{"start":18802.018,"end":18804.439,"text":"那個,李委員這樣好不好?"},{"start":18804.439,"end":18814.665,"text":"我,因為這些,確實這些相關的價都是在照顧不抵值的這個大的框架下。 所以我其實也已經要求業務單位這恐怕這些不同的價,包括彈性運價,包括剛剛講到說這個流產價。"},{"start":18818.507,"end":18840.795,"text":"然後甚至也有講到這個賠產減價等等等這些其實都是在照顧不離職的這個範圍裡面我是認為這些價值確實這些名目是需要有一個綜合性的思考可能沒有辦法都只是單點單點的來考慮這我已經跟我們業務單位說了所以我是希望說還是爭取說這部分讓我們就是希望凍結啦那剛才留言說10萬減10萬"},{"start":18847.322,"end":18866.593,"text":"這象徵性10萬好啦好不好好那這10萬可是我們希望是說可以我們讓一個我們可以來跟委員談一個比較適當的凍結凍凍結的額度那我們會要拿出來一個比較整體的方案這樣好不好所以是要先保留嗎好保保留讓我們再跟委員再討論一下這個額度有這麼大的困難嗎8000多萬凍86008600我凍結600啊"},{"start":18873.8,"end":18880.065,"text":"不啦就是說勞工的母性保護很重要因為這個跟價無關的這個是雖然是價我講的有新流產價可不可以動200啦200不行啦"},{"start":18888.482,"end":18906.523,"text":"有心留產嫁雖然是嫁但是他為什麼需要產嫁他的概念基本上其實是一個母性的保護留產的女生也需要做月做嫁來你知道嗎?他的子宮也需要修養你知道嗎?然後你說你請釋嫁就好了釋嫁不太漂亮你知道嗎?"},{"start":18909.426,"end":18910.867,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算．一、繼續審查勞動部主管預算。"},{"start":18931.001,"end":18933.784,"text":"117案楊耀委員他已經有簽字同意修改科目為勞動條件及就業平等業務並動50萬"},{"start":18950.285,"end":18966.515,"text":"好118案118案是呃曾曾經會委員這邊他已經有同意呃有簽字同意可以呃修改那個相關的科目啊並動100萬提書面報告好118案並動100萬哈119那個處分委員剛剛有說先保留了是哈110"},{"start":18976.044,"end":18979.947,"text":"119案先保留120案月勤委員不在120案也先保留120案也先保留120案"},{"start":19002.21,"end":19026.282,"text":"123案保留月勤委員不在那124案 報告主席那個剛才那幾個案子黃范雲委員那邊他有同意說可以 全部都有同意了嗎先保留好了啦沒有嗎那就先保留啦好不好"},{"start":19030.966,"end":19043.372,"text":"紙本有有送嗎要送進來沒有先保留了沒有送進來就先保留了124案124案陳委員也是關心那個124王委員也是病棟然後病棟"},{"start":19051.314,"end":19079.709,"text":"就一起啦一起好不好一起有簽了126案沒有124案是那個王委員已經有簽併動是併動50萬那是相關的有關於彈性暈價的部分都一起保留再做最後處理好好好那就那個相關的就全部都保留好不好等你們看要動多少再一併處理那124案也先保留"},{"start":19081.463,"end":19106.192,"text":"一百二十五一百二十五萬一百二十五萬那個料委員這邊的話是關關心的是性騷擾的這個相關的一些案子能夠更強化相關的保障我們是不是建議希望說料委員這邊可以修改科目然後並當50萬提出面報告要委員"},{"start":19112.28,"end":19141.66,"text":"呃,我覺得還是照我原本的哦,凍結那等呃,提出專案報告經同意後再使得凍資啊呃,報告委員哦,因為這樣子這一支原來呃,委員是凍在那個我們的分支計劃向下分支計劃向下那個部分的業務費是143萬嗯那這個是有關就業平等促進的這些這個相關業務那會凍的就在單支小支的裡面啊"},{"start":19142.04,"end":19153.986,"text":"那是不是可以說同意修改科目到大致的這邊那因為原來委員動的數字也沒有那麼多是不是可以把它調成併動是50萬那提書面報告"},{"start":19158.342,"end":19176.588,"text":"可以嗎?廖委員我是希望能夠爭取這個動的項目再大一點的項目當然這個是我們還是會做啦但是我們希望能夠調到一個大一點的項目可不可以?這樣子因為委員的原來提案是那個143萬的5%嘛5%的話只有7萬塊錢那我們事實上說可以把它動到項目大一點整個勞動條件及就業平等這個項目裡面然後並當是50萬的處理好可以"},{"start":19184.89,"end":19203.474,"text":"那但是還是一樣要這個我們會提報告提出書面報告但是要經委員會同意是是一定的好125案並動50126126案的話楊耀委員的提案他同意並案處理那他同意並動50萬元126案並動50萬好127案"},{"start":19211.075,"end":19219.112,"text":"一百二十七萬的部分那陳委員這邊有同意改組決議有簽字一百二十七萬改組決議"},{"start":19221.909,"end":19238.475,"text":"128案128案是發言委員的那就先保留129案129案的話是邱委員的部分他關心的也是性騷擾的相關那他已經說明以後委員有簽字同意修改科目並動50萬129案並動50萬130案"},{"start":19245.526,"end":19269.861,"text":"來130案是我的案子130案對是王玉敏王委員關心這個職安法要納入職場霸凌凍結勞動法務100萬對這個案子我覺得很關鍵主要是我在質詢的時候部長也有允諾你說下個會期一定會送進來那時候我的提案就是你們一定下個會期要送進來"},{"start":19270.822,"end":19286.529,"text":"而且未完會開始啟動審查之後就代表你們完成你們已經把這個案子完成所以他就可以解凍我的條件就是這樣我應該承諾的是說在下個會期我會提出我們會提出這個版本"},{"start":19287.708,"end":19304.204,"text":"不是吧,送進來委員會。 那我要求是要送進來委員會。 你這樣拖太久了,部長。 我想跟你說明,其實現在確實有一些各方不同的意見。 我要說明的事情是說,比方說,如果最後是決定說要修專章,那比較簡單。"},{"start":19305.925,"end":19332.336,"text":"但如果是要修專法確實涉及到的層面真的比較大那確實不同的專業界有不同在這方面不同的意見我們現在還在彙整大家這個修法的意見可是如果是要修專法真的是他他的這個比較大所以這是為什麼然後甚至可能會涉及到一些其他部會的一些業務那這是為什麼希望能夠多給我們一點點時間空間的原因是在這個地方"},{"start":19332.856,"end":19357.018,"text":"部長我是建議你這件事情因為現在大家都在關注那也不只是您這邊現在這個衛福部也鬧得沸沸揚揚他們的懲處比你們輕很多大家都質疑這個整個的標準不一對於霸凌的界定這個SOP整個都是不清楚的所以我真的建議你這件事情只能快不能慢這個已經沒有辦法讓你"},{"start":19359.54,"end":19387.697,"text":"反復思量然後慢慢想慢慢做你應該綜合去評估比如說如果治安法先行專章那這個的修法可以在最快的時間通過至少你已經確保了就是跟勞動相關的這些場域都是可以受到保障的那你如果評估那個時間的距離如果差太遠就是說你要一個專法你還要再耗時一年以上你認為社會可以接受嗎"},{"start":19388.477,"end":19412.497,"text":"我認為一定不會到一年啦我認為社會不會接受到一年啦所以但是我我現在說意思是想跟讓委員知道說不同的修法的路徑去確實這個複雜度會差蠻大的當然那也包括現在有一有一些包括有一些專家學者其實談到假如希望要修專法的話他甚至希望放入更多的東西"},{"start":19413.396,"end":19437.539,"text":"所以你們的評估就顯得很重要我的意思就是說作為勞動部你們必須評估AB方案那如果一個完整的專法曠日廢食然後還要更多的東西不斷的加進來我覺得那個就你們的評估就很明顯嘛那個可能要超過到一年以上整個社會是不能等的那你就應該要專章先行"},{"start":19437.619,"end":19453.389,"text":"如果真的是其實如果大家有共識是專章的話當然專章的速度可以是真的是比較快的所以我這個提案講的是專章就是你如果是專章你就要趕快進來你懂我意思嗎你下個會期就可以進來你如果最終採取的方案是專章你下個會期就可以進來你進來我就解凍"},{"start":19454.93,"end":19478.095,"text":"但是我跟網友說明這樣好不好因為確實現在社會上面有些聲音是希望專法我想委員也一定有聽到所以到底要走專法或專章我們真的是需要一點時間第一個我們做一個內部的研議以後然後還要跟各界溝通沒關係我的我的立場就是如果是專章我提案寫的是專章是真的我們可不可以把凍結的數字降低一點啊"},{"start":19478.871,"end":19496.954,"text":"一百萬不多了你只要趕快送進來就好因為我真的覺得部長你的風格讓我有點小擔心就是你是會你可能不是那麼決斷的人你要聽完所有所有所有所有人的意見但是缺點就是會拖你沒有辦法明快你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":19498.035,"end":19517.625,"text":"你需要再更明快一點就是說很快的聽完各界的意見之後你就要拍板決定你的方向就應該要往前推了這件事情拖不得啦委員我們絕對是拖不得我非常清楚知道所以我好我們12月初開第一次會下個禮拜又要再開第二次會我們是沒有完全沒有用拖來看待這個事情的對我們沒有用拖來看待這個事情的"},{"start":19523.513,"end":19539.614,"text":"我們是希望說是不是可以把動的額度再降低一點這部分想跟跟我不要弄那麼動並弄50萬趕快送進來就解凍了好不好就這樣謝謝委員所以解凍的條件可以改成書面報告嗎對你們的法案要送進委員會啊"},{"start":19541.021,"end":19543.524,"text":"勞動部有個版本是我們自己比較可以掌握在手上的"},{"start":19560.922,"end":19583.356,"text":"可是什麼時候能送進委員?坦白說這還牽涉到行政院。這是部長你的角色。這還牽涉到行政院的部分。你現在跟卓院長關係蠻好的我相信直達天聽以你現在跟院長的交情你一定可以跟他說院長趕快因為這個委員有一個案子你一定要讓我插隊我要排在最前面這是社會關注的案子這是你的本事好不好好謝謝"},{"start":19585.834,"end":19614.169,"text":"那個是不是可以再保留一下我們可以再跟這個委員在做這個金額上面做一點溝通方向上先可以先保留嗎可以先保留嗎我再跟委員報告一下因為其實勞動法務的這個預算最主要是那個主席這個我都已經聽過了就是那個要嘛就是通過100萬的動機案在委員會處理要嘛就是送那個保留送協商好謝謝"},{"start":19616.415,"end":19618.177,"text":"一百零七案一百零八案一百零九案一百"},{"start":19636.116,"end":19654.588,"text":"一十七案一百一十八案這個是一百一十八案說併一百齁然後一百二十五案一百二十六案一百二十九案就是併動在勞動條件及就業平等業務那這個是全部都是併動多少因為剛剛已經有點亂"},{"start":19656.209,"end":19669.885,"text":"那這邊的話因為最高是100所以併動100那另外還有剛剛好像有兩個呃陳委員那邊有一個案子是110案他剛剛好像有簽了已經送給主席台了還有另外有一個124案"},{"start":19676.118,"end":19693.826,"text":"124和125案這也都是併在一起的都是同樣一個科目勞動條件及就業平等那因為現在最高是100就是併成100報告主席就107、108、109、110、117、118、124、125、126、129"},{"start":19704.676,"end":19730.675,"text":"全部都併動一百?對,要同一個科目。好,這樣可以嗎?好,好,好,OK,可以嗎?124,欸,對啊,那個我,我再問一下剛剛那個124案是跟上面那個劉委員他們是一併的,那時候我不知道是要用保留還是?"},{"start":19734.485,"end":19759.124,"text":"一百二十四喔喔有有簽了齁好好好好好那我那我再重複一次啦齁王委員說王委員喔對對對對那那就先保留好了啦好不好一百二十四案就先保留齁"},{"start":19762.215,"end":19764.597,"text":"我再重複一次就是並動100萬的107案、108案、109案、110案、117案、118案、125案、126案、129案並動勞動條件及就業平等業務100萬好"},{"start":19787.754,"end":19789.555,"text":"131案．132案徒權級委員關注傳援契約的認定權責,謝謝徒權級委員已經同意改為主決議132案改主決議133案"},{"start":19805.865,"end":19827.254,"text":"那因為這個紅部長在這邊因為這個當初有關中鋼航運船員契約性質這個爭議那個時候其實跟之前我們何飛山部長那個時候針對這契約性質喔那時候我們有相當大的爭議那認知跟部長的是不一樣後來針對這部分還特別請航港局去"},{"start":19829.114,"end":19845.699,"text":"函詢然後他也回復那而且從我們這次法務司的轉組決議文字我們可以知道那其實確定當初何部長針對契約爭議說跟勞動部無關很顯然是錯的我覺得針對這部分我覺得法務司針對法律的專業幕僚單位當下應該給部長正確的資訊你看為了這個那時候在"},{"start":19855.401,"end":19873.813,"text":"質詢臺上大家爭吵不休那其實那時候我覺得法務司你應該要給正確的正確的資訊而且你讓部長公然在臺上講這個然後後來我們去針對也查詢也航港局也函付那你自己主決議員也講契約性質認定屬於行政機關與勞動主管機關的權責你看當初你們讓何部長講說契約爭議跟勞動部無關"},{"start":19883.439,"end":19901.107,"text":"所以當初為了這個才爭議這麼大所以我覺得法務司針對這部分應該要給部長正確的資訊而且我像航部長也剛上任針對這部分應該以後有類似的情形法務司應該在第一時間要提供正確的訊息"},{"start":19902.877,"end":19905.018,"text":"134案陳金輝委員關注勞動法令查詢系統的狀況"},{"start":19923.624,"end":19937.116,"text":"當然我覺得您本來就對勞動法令都已經非常的了解但是請告訴我一下說你們花這幾百萬去編列查詢系統會跟法務部的全國法規資料庫的差異在哪裡呢?"},{"start":19938.497,"end":19961.289,"text":"我跟委員報告那個全國法規系統只有法律跟法規命令我們的勞動法令查詢系統有7500筆的行政規則跟行政函式這個部分是全國勞動法規資料庫沒有的所以你們這個是未來會開放給多少都有開放我們這個就是為了政府資訊公開法令應該公開給民眾"},{"start":19963.77,"end":19989.348,"text":"所以我們有開放給民眾今年1月到11月已經有64萬人次的瀏覽還有查閱所以這個部分的話請委員放心那因為這個系統是92年就已經建制其他各部會其實也有相同法令的系統建制那它現在只是管理維護的費用如果您可以加強它的推廣的話那我們等一下就來討論"},{"start":19991.744,"end":19996.729,"text":"是,那委員這邊已經同意就是說單獨的動10萬元勞動法務業務動10萬元好,那我們等一下來處理,謝謝好,謝謝,委員同意那134案就是動10萬對135案"},{"start":20006.544,"end":20008.005,"text":"135案楊耀楊委員關注這個訴願決定期限很長的問題楊耀委員已經同意並動10萬元136案136案因為劉建國劉委員不在那就先保留"},{"start":20024.332,"end":20037.902,"text":"137案137案一樣是陳金輝委員他關注我們的行政救濟系統上面有一個線上聲明溯源的這個系統這是你們新推出的嗎"},{"start":20039.143,"end":20055.469,"text":"其實109年的時候我們就已經有了 這個線上溯源這樣子的措施其實它是一個蠻中央的業務啊 所以我會想知道說你後續推動是不是可以讓我們知道你要如何用這樣子的預算去推動一個中央業務"},{"start":20056.309,"end":20075.496,"text":" 是,我跟委員報告,其實訴願法現在規定訴願的話聲明訴願還是聲明的訴願書要書面的訴願書到達原處分機關才叫做中斷時效可以去處理那因為我們審理的實務上面有發現有些訴願人差了一天兩天"},{"start":20076.596,"end":20076.716,"text":"兼職委員委員"},{"start":20095.233,"end":20095.473,"text":"一百三十八案"},{"start":20122.034,"end":20144.221,"text":"138案是陳金輝委員關心部長坐車的問題那感謝委員已經簽署同意組決議沒有沒有沒有沒有我是想要詢問一下就是部長啦因為這個是何部長編列的預算他本來是要規劃幫自己買新的首長坐車可是何部長有需求所以"},{"start":20144.741,"end":20173.559,"text":"不代表紅部長有需求所以我會想要從紅部長的態度去詢問一下就是您覺得您會有這樣子的需求嗎因為現在部內的2000cc的公務車還是有非常多跟委員報告就是部長的車他是2500cc那目前部長的用車在最近這三年來他的維護費用有37萬多其實已經超過一半了"},{"start":20174.119,"end":20195.605,"text":"最近這個駕駛又有再提出說他要再維修10萬塊那他的維修費用已經快要超過這個原購車的一半了加上這個本來是燃油的小客車所以我們是基於安全性的考量所以才要汰換這個車跟是哪一位首長是沒有關係的這邊跟委員報告那基於安全性還是懇請委員能夠支持"},{"start":20197.265,"end":20218.197,"text":"因為看了一下這個中央政府最近在推廣2050近零轉型運具電動化還有無碳化等等的交通部部長也有帶頭示範坐公車啊等等的所以我是想問我是想問我不是要我沒有要請部長坐公車我的意思是說部長有沒有考慮"},{"start":20219.758,"end":20235.792,"text":"因應運具電動化無碳化會不會想要換成比如說國產的100萬不到的電動車等等因為你現在寧可砸120萬去買油車那其實中央政府是在推廣公務車全面的電動化"},{"start":20237.802,"end":20249.17,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們主要買的是油電混合電動車並不是燃油的車那另外就是考量到說有時候部長會去一些偏鄉還是部長自己講就好了這個"},{"start":20255.43,"end":20271.077,"text":"其實我對於這些車啊等等等我自己有感覺的有感覺的出來從你以前的這個發言就是我覺得你還好嗎我沒有這些要非常非常高規格但是我只是想因為同仁有來跟我說明其實主要是目前部裡面的車的車輪其實都已經"},{"start":20272.538,"end":20284.14,"text":"很長了,大概幾年?你跟我說這是90年購買的,抱歉100年購買的所以已經13、14年了其實都是13年、14年的車,確實我以為可以帶委員去看這是車輪比較長的車那過去其實也都是油車現在都是油車所以他們是有跟我說現在假設要這個何部長任內他決定要換的話是換油電混合所以其實就這個節能減碳或者是說"},{"start":20300.723,"end":20322.818,"text":"就能耗來說的話確實也比現在的油車尤其他這個車輪長了以後他的耗油的狀況而且維修的頻率其實現在都非常非常的的高主要是這個理由並不是我要我一定為什麼不考慮就是呼應中央政府宣傳的全部都改成電動的我覺得也可以啊但是價格可能高一點部長覺得也可以啊"},{"start":20323.018,"end":20343.813,"text":"第一個電動車價格是比較高那最重要的是電動車他必須要搭配有充電樁那部長其實常常必須要下鄉去一些偏鄉看一些就是一些團體那那個地方的話他要充電事實上是不方便的所以我們是經過綜合考量之後做比較經濟那這邊在還是懇求那個就是說委員能夠支持因為開部長駕駛的那個駕駛其實他也很擔心因為這個車礦真的是有點不太好"},{"start":20350.538,"end":20373.514,"text":"因為他如果去偏向的話其實你們還有很多公務車我們看到你們有很多年限比較短的公務車跟我們報告就是說其他的次長的行程也是非常滿喔所以說在車子的調度上面幾乎都是全滿的喔所以如果部長用了次長的那車那次長就所以好我們等一下保留送協商好了"},{"start":20375.082,"end":20391.393,"text":"處分委員我本來要換車很想要換油電車因為對我來講我思考過因為油車耗油率還有再加上那個引擎的廢氣真的是很如果可以的話我也不想要再開"},{"start":20392.754,"end":20399.618,"text":"那電車的話對一般人來講我想跟部裏面可能也是一樣電車對我們來講有誘因可是真的充電能不能可行喔可靜性這麼高然後即時性這麼高這個真的是一個問號然後到時候那個那個叫什麼電池他也是有壽命的所以"},{"start":20414.167,"end":20429.41,"text":"如果一般人像我在考慮就電車跟油電車這兩種考量起來說我們所節省的能源的費用跟這到時候又要換那個電池的費用加起來可能是差不多成本上是差不多開起來的成本"},{"start":20430.531,"end":20447.046,"text":"但是呢我如果可以我當時是因為要換成油電車的原因是因為我換算起來他的公里數可以跑的真的是比一般油車還多很多他一公升如果油車是10公升10公里的話他大概跑到30公里這樣子"},{"start":20448.647,"end":20462.018,"text":"那如果到比較偏遠的地方或是沒有辦法充電的時候他有那個加油站的可敬性也比較高我是我當初要換車的時候其實都有想過這個問題所以我在想說其實這個不是大問題啦老實說重點是要部長喔待機做好比較重要給他一個如果這個法律規定還可以的話這個對他來講應該對我們來講"},{"start":20473.227,"end":20500.056,"text":"我們不是計較在這種小地方不過當然是陳委員的考量是有他合理的地方但是就是說是不是這種東西這麼小的事情每一件都要保留你審到明天晚上也審不完我的意思是這樣子謝謝我先保留送協商好了因為我覺得我們要對卓院長的電動車公務車國家隊有信心所以我相信卓院長應該也有信心把這個後續的電動裝電池等等的事情解決"},{"start":20501.69,"end":20516.555,"text":"你沒有信心沒有啦我也講一下啦齁我也針對這個公務車的部分齁其實我覺得我覺得所有的公務人員或者是部長齁的坐車應該都是以安全考量那如果已經十幾年了齁"},{"start":20517.435,"end":20533.664,"text":"已經十幾年我們自己本身委員的坐車你自己的坐車你可能六七年七八年你可能開了二三十萬公里你可能就想要換了更何況這個為所有人民服務的這個這些公務人員所以我覺得說這個陳委員也請你以這些公務人員的這個安全考量啦"},{"start":20539.907,"end":20546.191,"text":"你看我們住大樓裡面我們想要在地下室裝一個充電樁你知道管委會就不讓我們裝了你知道我們還要立法去強迫管委會說你要給人家裝可是管委會講的也沒有錯啊管委會說他如果電車燒起來會消防隊是怕不會花整棟大樓都還要燒整棟大樓建築結構都產生疑慮所以真的"},{"start":20562.64,"end":20580.59,"text":"充電裝的可普遍性可進性真的很還沒有辦法一步到位啦不是沒信心啦是目前沒信心啦其實陳委員這個案子他只是希望他換成就是更減碳的車他不是不讓他換車對不對"},{"start":20583.218,"end":20591.102,"text":"對啊那不要弄歪了就是說檢探是趨勢我們還未還委員會啊拜託我們那個環境部一天到晚再講那個檢探可是我也覺得說因為有時候部長他們到偏鄉其實你偏鄉萬一如果開到一半沒有電那怎麼辦我可不可以問一下偏鄉部長的坐車是這樣子的檢探又不是一速可及"},{"start":20603.968,"end":20610.496,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管及重建中心114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管及重建中心114年度二天一次會"},{"start":20617.352,"end":20630.115,"text":"怎麼可能呢怎麼可能你對環境部一點信心都沒有啦不是啦我們對我們的方向有信心正確的方向但你真的要淨零排放也設定到我個人對2050是滿意不滿意啦但是你叫我2030馬上淨零排放那個我們也是小話不同的我說一下我的"},{"start":20642.778,"end":20645.168,"text":"第一個是我我很不好意思我自己的這個坐車的問題在委員會是這樣子討論齁"},{"start":20648.413,"end":20673.399,"text":"我坦白說我自己也沒有車我自己也沒有車我自己也沒有車其實我覺得對於坐車的問題很簡單我希望能夠讓我們部裡面的公務員好做事然後讓司機好做事然後能夠安全那能夠撿他的部分盡量撿可是我確實覺得就我自己來包括我的同仁跟我說包括司機跟我說他們認為在這裡面是很重要的是一個安全上面的考慮那因為這個車齡比較長了已經十幾年的車齡了"},{"start":20676.92,"end":20706.33,"text":"所以司機一直在提醒說這個每年的維修的金額已經越來越高主要是在考慮這但我自己對於我個人對於規格並沒有特別喜好因為我自己就沒有車我的名下連車子都沒有所以我都沒有什麼好想要去堅持這個事情的可是只是希望能夠讓我們的公務員好做事然後有一個相對比較安全的考慮我的看法只是這樣子而已"},{"start":20706.55,"end":20712.459,"text":"是阿是阿所以我說保留我們送協商嘛因為我們這樣子公務車全面電動的話就跳票了好就先這樣子好"},{"start":20721.981,"end":20737.893,"text":"一百三十八案就保留協商。一百三十九案是蘇慶娟委員關係我們財安署有關中高齡及高齡工作者愛協執行的持續修正。我們會遵照辦理。謝謝蘇委員。一百三十九案通過。一百四十案。"},{"start":20744.468,"end":20767.784,"text":"140案是蘇委員關心勞保財務的議題那委員謝謝委員的支持同意改成修正文字主決議的文字修正文字140案照文字修正通過141案141案蘇清泉委員的一個主決議那文字略做修正也已經簽署"},{"start":20769.698,"end":20776.725,"text":"141案照文字修正通過142案也是蘇委員關心勞保財務的議題同意修正文字"},{"start":20782.66,"end":20790.663,"text":"142案照文字修正通過143案144案是王委員王振旭委員關心勞保財務的議題那也同意修正主決議的文字144案照文字修正通過145案"},{"start":20807.987,"end":20820.195,"text":"一百四十五萬呃王子俊委員關心呃勞資協商的部分好的處決議那也謝謝委員我們照處決議來辦理好我們照呃這個文字修正通過一百四十六萬謝謝王子俊委員關心公會組織力啊我們綠座文字修正的處決議我們會來辦理"},{"start":20826.965,"end":20851.234,"text":"一百四十六一百四十照文字修正文字對啊照文字修正通過一百四十七案一百四十七案也謝謝王正俊委員針對倉產公會的一些定義的範圍那我們文字修正主決意遵照辦理好一百四十七案照文字修正通過一百四十八案一百四十八案謝謝王正俊委員關心勞工健康議題那這個書文報告我們會遵照主決意來辦理"},{"start":20852.296,"end":20864.301,"text":"一百四十八案照案通過一百四十九案一百四十九案是關於小規模事業單位的健康照護我們先同意文字修正遵照辦理我們照文字修正通過一百五十案"},{"start":20865.017,"end":20875.499,"text":"一百五十一案照案通過一百五十一案一百五十一案照案通過一百五十二案一百五十二案保留一百五十三案"},{"start":20893.338,"end":20908.997,"text":"153案發言委員有同意文字修正已經送到主席臺有簽了嗎?有簽了153案照文字修正通過154案張雅雲委員我們遵照辦理照案通過155案遵照辦理"},{"start":20909.758,"end":20936.744,"text":"一百五十五案照案通過一百五十六案一百五十六案是陳佩玉委員關心國營事業輸出球隊勞健保障及相關問題那文字修正的主決議我們也謝謝委員我們遵照辦理一百五十六案照文字修正通過一百五十七案遵照辦理一百五十七案照案通過一百五十八案一百五十八案遵照辦理一百五十八案照案通過一百五十九案一百五十九案遵照辦理一百五十九案照案通過一百六十案"},{"start":20938.738,"end":20953.124,"text":"一百六十案照案通過一百六十一案一百六十一案遵照辦理一百六十一案照案通過好在接下來是勞工保險局的一百六十二案一百六十二案我委員關心媒體的一個宣導費用那委員不在是不是先保留"},{"start":20954.232,"end":20980.014,"text":"那個書委員這個是對那個歐委員的提案跟162、163其實都是有關於媒體政策業務宣導那都有簡略那這兩案就是都一起保留送用會協商是不是送檔台協商是不是保留你們先說明一下是該委員報告那個王委員你163案你有簽喔"},{"start":20982.622,"end":20984.463,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、七、八、"},{"start":21004.69,"end":21024.449,"text":"你先說明跟委員做說明因為勞保局這邊負責非常多的社會保險業務跟退休金那我們涉及的對象是1000萬個勞工跟80萬個投保單位相關的一個保險特性不同所以我們要考量整個閱讀者的閱讀習慣所以宣導費用是有必要的當然感謝委員這邊同意感"},{"start":21027.657,"end":21040.705,"text":"好那我的部分是減200那翁委員來了就是看翁委員他的意見我的我的是減200是謝謝163案減列200萬那是不是可以勘請委員162163都是針對媒體的宣導費用那個162是不是先請那個翁委員來了"},{"start":21050.579,"end":21068.97,"text":"他才剛到,先講我的好了,我的163是簡列兩百萬是同意改為簡列一般行政兩百萬科目自行調整,那併案三檢,謝謝委員我的可以就是簡列兩百萬一般行政科目自行調整對,那併案三檢那我們就往下囉162案,對不起"},{"start":21075.855,"end":21098.275,"text":"對我的162案對我是檢列399對那主要的原因也是因為我們希望這個政府機關可以自己去維運社群平台像臉書啊或是YTIG等等然後不應該以新增與原有經費的減半的原則相背離所以呢我們希望就是所以本席認為應該要檢列399萬然後凍結100萬"},{"start":21104.287,"end":21127.638,"text":"跟委員這邊來做說明我們相關的一個媒體宣導費用除了臉書之外我們針對受眾者的不同特性所以我們也會運用廣播或者相關的一個影片那有關於社群軟體部社群平台部分的話因為涉及到有效的一個行銷那所以就這一部分的話我們是有委託不管是從圖文並茂的方式讓民眾的吸收度能夠提高那後續相關因為包含了勞保勞退"},{"start":21128.138,"end":21148.935,"text":"弄寶的等都是有民眾需求要能夠強化宣導所以是不是同意這部分可以並著剛才163案我們檢列200以一般行政來做檢列那如果檢列到399跟凍結100會影響業務的一個運作那我們希望能夠確保民眾在知的權益上面能夠有效的一個行銷那可以請委員來支持"},{"start":21149.56,"end":21171.914,"text":"是我認為說要維持民眾知的權益其實政府機關你們自己這個本身的出世同仁就可以做了這個對於民眾的知的權益當然不能打折扣而不應該說把這些項目都是委託給外面的機關團體來外面的廠商來拜而且看不出來你們的宣傳效益是如何所以本席基本上還是認為說要三減399萬然後凍結100萬然後兩個月內向這個未還委員會提出"},{"start":21178.558,"end":21206.412,"text":"這個績效專案報告之後並經同意才可以動之好我們請部長說明那個問人我想想跟問人說明吼因為尤其是勞保局的業務其實他真的涉及到很多一般的人市井小民日常其實他在勞保上面的各種需求其實這是他的權益所以比方說我們其實每天現在在部裡面每天都有很多在勞保政策上面或者是一些措施上面的要讓民眾知道的事情"},{"start":21206.972,"end":21231.363,"text":"那這裡面說實話有很多的這個有很多的很多的我們的目標的群眾他並不一定都會使用臉書他其實這真的在宣傳的管道上面真的會需要比較多元有一些年紀比較大的他不一定使用臉書他就會很需要比方說像用電台的方式所以這個這個不是要去做什麼外大外宣或者是各種那種"},{"start":21232.603,"end":21253.028,"text":"去做那種很好像很活潑的其實這真的都是一條一條是關於尤其是勞保的業務這是關於一般民眾的權益的問題而且他是需要多種的管道並進的那我們當然一定會好這個非常可是因為真的勞保局的業務不涉及到什麼大的政策宣傳或者是大的那種"},{"start":21254.068,"end":21279.783,"text":"大家看到好像這個也不會拿來放煙火或者是什麼東西他這就是一般民眾的權益上面那個支的權利怎麼讓大家能夠觸及到所以如果這我看了這整個元劣數其實才700多萬那如果要刪掉將近400萬的話這真的很會影響到民眾在勞保事務業務上面支的權益這部分真的是希望我們可以幫忙多做考慮了"},{"start":21280.805,"end":21293.18,"text":"是因為你們112年編了465萬113年是184萬其實合計起來也不過才600多萬其實沒有必要超編啦所以呢我這邊還是希望能夠以這個不要再新增與原有經費的減半原則然後來進行這個合理的刪減"},{"start":21297.265,"end":21320.815,"text":"跟委員這邊做一個補充報告我們去年是編列649萬那今年編列723、24萬這中間差額主要是現在大家手機普及那很多人都會用Line app那我們也希望說在這一部分我們可以強化透過Line的方式能夠做一些主動的一個相關法令部分的一個宣導所以增加70萬主要是這一部分的需求那可能請委員可以"},{"start":21321.355,"end":21346.202,"text":"支持我們在用不同的宣導管道像剛剛部長所提的因為市警小民其實以勞工而言他們的落差程度是很大那我們希望能夠用不同的方式讓民眾能夠多面向的接觸那恳請委員支持我剛剛已經說了因為我沒有看到你們的宣傳的效果的評估這過去我們現在看到很多的機關他們透過媒體宣傳的這樣的經費的使用但是沒有具體的成效"},{"start":21347.818,"end":21376.472,"text":"那個溫委員可以就是先保留然後讓他們跟你說明好不好好不好因為你剛到所以可能來提供資料你們先跟溫委員說明那這個部分162的部分就先暫時先保留好不好對好不好你們現在趕快去溝通好不好我們提供資料跟委員報告對那就先保留你就先聽他們跟你解釋嘛好不好"},{"start":21379.067,"end":21403.666,"text":"他們在提供你資料讓你看一下我們會就相關我們剛剛提到的不管是臉書那或者是我們在廣播包含警廣包含相關的一個電台我們在實際執行的情形還有委員剛剛關心的一個成效容我們是不是可以現在整理一些資料馬上跟委員做報告你們現在先把資料給翁委員看那162的部分我們就先保留好不好我們先保留然後你們先趕快跟翁委員說明"},{"start":21405.367,"end":21420.2,"text":"好,那我們先繼續往下走喔,164案164案是陳清輝委員關心有關於曾范湘以及陳蘭妮的問題那這部分非常謝謝委員同意改為並案凍結一般行政一千萬提書面報告並案凍結一千萬"},{"start":21433.297,"end":21452.643,"text":"165案165案是王委員關心勞保財務的一個議題那這部分也是謝謝委員同意改併案凍結一般行政一千萬提書面報告165案併案凍結一千萬166案166 楊委員不在是不是先保留這部分委員是有簽了改為主決議166案改主決議167案"},{"start":21456.664,"end":21483.743,"text":"167案林委員關心有關於我們就業保險延長失業給付的一個啟動門檻那跟委員做報告勞動部這邊會來做通盤的評估檢討那是不是龍委員這邊可以同意改為主決議我們就後續研議政策精進的一個改善做法來提書面報告可是你們那個文字說明寫的我覺得很不滿意欸文字說明你們文字說明寫的都打臉我們啊"},{"start":21486.651,"end":21488.745,"text":"167案不可凍結的原因"},{"start":21490.823,"end":21512.678,"text":"我說我們現行的給付標準是參考日韓二國然後再來就是說我們要考量到救保的這個財務可負擔性就業市場及保障功能一併通盤評估所以你們就說這個基本行政工作維持費用要負擔別的不能夠凍結就是這樣寫你們的說明如果未來你們還是這樣子打給我我就等於自動測案的意思了你們的精進"},{"start":21523.908,"end":21524.088,"text":"麥克風麥克風"},{"start":21526.6,"end":21539.144,"text":"主席跟委員報告就是這個說明只是跟委員報告說我目前的失業幾戶是參考日本跟韓國兩個國家的標準那未來我們會綜合來考量這個勞動市場的衝擊如果延長失業幾戶的話他對勞動市場的衝擊跟保險財務的因素來做通盤的來考量那這個報告我們會來就現行的所謂的連續連續4個月3.3%的"},{"start":21555.569,"end":21575.044,"text":"我們一直說45歲以上的勞工延長給付到9個月還有身上的你們都比較寬鬆嘛是是那45歲以下的你們其實就就比較嚴苛啊你們現行的規定是什麼啊6個月現在是最長6個月不是啊你們說45歲以下要什麼符合什麼條件"},{"start":21578.173,"end":21602.771,"text":"就是最近3年保險年資符合最近3年的保險年資滿1年跟委員這邊來做說明就因為保險裡面失業給付的一個要件他那個請領標準裡面有特別提到如果年齡45歲或是生性障礙勞工那原本的失業給付會從6個月延長到9個月那另外在延長失業給付的啟動標準裡面我們有兩個"},{"start":21605.673,"end":21624.37,"text":"項目會一起看一個是針對所謂的就保失業率就是每一個月領取失業給付的人數相較於當月領取失業給付的人數跟被保險的人數如果連續三四個月達到百分之三點三以及連續四個月失業率都沒有下降這是現行的我們講過那個是落後指標"},{"start":21626.112,"end":21651.999,"text":"那所以剛才司長有特別跟委員這邊做一個報告就是說這個是過去我們在民國98年立法的時候當時的情境那根據經驗值所定的一個指標那隨著其實主客觀環境的一個改變這一部分勞動部覺得擁有檢討的空間所以剛才司長有特別提到說也許我們可能在書面的表達上沒有表達的這麼精準我們就過去我們的考量做一個說明那容我們現在就現行的一個情勢我們整個就指標部分來做檢討那針對我們檢討的一個因應作為來跟委員這邊提書面報告"},{"start":21655.64,"end":21655.66,"text":"檢討呢?"},{"start":21655.66,"end":21656.24,"text":"這次就真的會檢討嗎?"},{"start":21656.24,"end":21657.921,"text":"那你們現在要凍結多少?"},{"start":21657.921,"end":21658.502,"text":"你們要用什麼條件?"},{"start":21665.12,"end":21688.349,"text":"委員那是不是可以這個案子因為我們有針對剛才一般行政我們可不可以用一般行政我們凍結1000就併案凍結那這部分提書面報告針對剛才提到的我們後續的你說在一般行政裡面捅凍這樣子喔對對對可以嗎謝謝委員我們是凍在那個基本行政工作維持這樣子我們可不可以用一般行政因為基本維持都租金一般行政全部是多少錢阿29億"},{"start":21690.649,"end":21713.299,"text":"那因為基本行政都租金啦系統維護費這都不能說不開一般行政29億喔對這樣29億喔一千好高三千啦一般行政好啦統統三千啦29億的三千非常謝謝委員這邊同意讓我們金額下降那也跟委員這邊不是啦讓你們自己去調整說要動在哪裡啦"},{"start":21714.239,"end":21729.936,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":21733.099,"end":21734.36,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部"},{"start":21752.711,"end":21755.992,"text":"167案就是病動1000萬我先確認一下就剛剛那個134案135案是病動勞動法務業務10萬元嗎?"},{"start":21767.788,"end":21776.557,"text":"是嗎?是齁?好接下來168案168案留委員不在是先保留169案169案是所有人有關心我們水電費的一個問題那也非常"},{"start":21787.378,"end":21797.663,"text":"我還是要再講啦齁就是編齁你去年才2100萬今年變了2600萬給500多萬驚死人169案勞保局的齁然後啦205案我做個認證我自己會認證的齁205案"},{"start":21810.009,"end":21831.183,"text":"二百二十五案二百七十三案三百三十萬這個就是部長你內地的這些都超過一百萬的那其他的世紀我不要啦那都要我測案啦我不要在上面勞動基金用期那個我給你測案啦齁那個才二十幾萬這一些定會的"},{"start":21833.467,"end":21853.924,"text":"有五百多萬的有三百多萬的一百多萬的太多了所以我的部分那個電費就減五分之一都中間五分之一這樣已經很那個了那個主委主委主委我想要跟你說明"},{"start":21855.285,"end":21879.797,"text":"第一個是說其實我們現在這個機關所屬其實過去其實我也看過確實都有過去水電費編列不足的狀況所以以前其實就有不足然後都是已經超過了然後才在其他地方 誰都沒有變對我說我說電啦 誰都沒變我說電啦 我都有看我說電啦 其實就有不足的狀況所以這一次是行政院讓大家其實希望能夠就盡量就用實際狀況把它編組"},{"start":21881.778,"end":21910.625,"text":"那這是第一個因素第二個因素確實是有因為我們其實這些所屬的機關它都是契約容量那它如果是契約容量的話它就是會受到電價的調整的影響所以兩個因素一個是過去就沒編組第二個是會受到電價的影響所以那個所以我可以來跟你說明說我很希望我們也希望能夠把我們所屬的節能減碳能源效率給提高可是真的是希望是說現在的電氣都耗能都"},{"start":21911.585,"end":21915.447,"text":"兼顧一些更高效率的設備如果高效率的設備確實它的能耗可以降低這是事實但是這也要變成我們要有時間把這些設備汰換成新的高效率的能耗這也有點不是一朝一夕"},{"start":21939.64,"end":21948.826,"text":"下個月就可以突然都變成高銷因為這也需要經費的採買這個設備的採買狀況是這樣想請所有人可以理解所以我剛剛講那個五個案齁我講減20%是非常少的我自己在做討論我很清楚的所以你自己自由運用減五分之一你再說啊"},{"start":21975.038,"end":21993.683,"text":"委員剛剛有特別提到勞保局這邊的確金額上530萬是看起來比較大可是我也跟委員這邊做一個報告因為勞保局在仰德大樓那一棟其實我們那棟大樓裡面有將近1500位的員工在裡面那剛剛部長也有提到那個是一個大樓部分的一個高契約容量裡面其實相關那個電費其實這"},{"start":21995.903,"end":22018.539,"text":"這幾年來勞動部就積極的做節能減電那其實同仁在這部分配合度也高所以我們看到我們度數雖然下降的確電價這三年成長了30%那過去我們在預算上的確編列是不足那如果說這部分沒有反映在我們的預算上我非常謝謝委員其實是關注我們在預算上面的有效運用跟電費上面整個政策上面怎麼樣去做合理考量"},{"start":22018.979,"end":22019.319,"text":"169案保留170案"},{"start":22047.984,"end":22064.116,"text":"保留 保留 保留 給勞動部說明一下接下來的四案169、170、171、172都是水電費的問題是不是容我們一併來跟委員再做一個說明先保留下來"},{"start":22065.836,"end":22083.853,"text":"報告主席我是希望保留送協商啦反正這個議題就是這樣嘛反正那個我們的賴總統說節能就是這個能源最好的能源是節能嘛所以當然是要往這方向來來努力啊那他一定是說他的我們也是堅持我們的所以就保留送協商吧"},{"start":22087.865,"end":22107.577,"text":"是先讓那個勞動部再跟各位再做一個說明我們會努力節能啦我們一定會而且我其實也僅只是我們秘書處甚至要引進一些專業的包括一些s口的專業的建議怎麼樣來把我們的整體的節能可以做到更好可是因為這真的是日常辦公室需求的電費的支出"},{"start":22108.922,"end":22126.708,"text":"那由像勞保局甚至它是很多民眾會到那個地方去做恰功的地方這部分真的是希望委員可以幫我們在這這部分都是更多的考慮。 沒關係啦,我們喔,從立法院的預算比照它如果是重建什麼立法院也同樣的科目同樣的計畫同樣比照"},{"start":22127.348,"end":22151.208,"text":"這樣就可以了沒有雙標就可以了如果立法院也言語律己那我們對行政部門的要求也當然合理如果說你們要求要節能然後勞保局對外營業對外服務人民的水電要少多少立法院也比照因為我們沒有對外服務我們自己要對自己更高標準這樣就可以了啦這有個不同的地方因為我們"},{"start":22152.51,"end":22160.999,"text":"對立法院自己就有不同了喔我們一直有在我們在野黨一直有在監督我們的政府應該要有更好的能源政策那為什麼現在我們的選擇往上漲但是現在現在"},{"start":22167.226,"end":22168.967,"text":"我支持砍行政部門我也支持要節能減電我也支持你的提案但是"},{"start":22191.943,"end":22192.844,"text":"請勞動部趕快再跟各個委員再趕快做一個說明溝通"},{"start":22220.865,"end":22228.549,"text":"我們往下走不然這樣真的審不完啦173案173案書委員已經同意改為主決議173案改組決議174案174案書委員已經同意改為主決議174案改組決議175案175案也非常謝謝陳委員這邊支持已經同意改為並動一般行政一千萬題書面報告"},{"start":22243.917,"end":22265.604,"text":"一百七十五案病動一千萬一百七十六案一百七十六案書委員已經同意改為主決議一百七十六案改組決議一百七十七案一百七十七案盧委員已經同意改為主決議一百七十七案改組決議一百七十八案一百七十八案邱委員已經同意改為主決議一百七十八案改組決議一百七十九案"},{"start":22266.864,"end":22288.511,"text":"179案也謝謝黃委員這邊同意改為並案凍結保險業務10萬元提書面報告好179案並案凍結10萬180案180案劉委員這邊關心的是有關於我們勞保黃牛的這個問題那有關於勞保黃牛部分我們分在實務上就不管是宣導端、申請端、審查端其實我們都會強化來宣導"},{"start":22289.011,"end":22303.766,"text":"但當然任何一個人我們都不希望他因為勞保黃牛的話術而受騙所以後續怎麼樣能夠再更精進是不是容委員這邊預算讓我們可以具以執行那改成主決議我們最後一期的精進措施我們再來想一些相關作為來跟委員做報告"},{"start":22310.56,"end":22327.122,"text":"我不曉得你們可以精進到什麼程度現在有多少個案件已經在法律的訴訟然後你們講那個是民事的案件然後是相對的被你們勞保局的被保險人自己去跟人家簽了合約你們也愛莫能助然後你說那個比例多少嗎?"},{"start":22328.208,"end":22329.029,"text":"你們清楚嗎?"},{"start":22329.029,"end":22330.429,"text":"你們調查過嗎?"},{"start":22330.429,"end":22331.39,"text":"有嗎?"},{"start":22331.39,"end":22333.351,"text":"不然你們要怎麼去精進?"},{"start":22333.351,"end":22349.481,"text":"你們精進的作為是在宣導,然後到時候說宣導沒有到位,這是他自己去跟人家簽的。 所以他自己就是民間的這樣的一個合約,所以站在公部門,站在要嚇阻房友的立場,你們也沒有什麼立場可言。 所以你的精進是什麼?"},{"start":22349.481,"end":22353.944,"text":"這第一點啦。 那第二點我覺得勞保局是真的有問題啦齁。 保地你不知道看得到嗎?"},{"start":22354.932,"end":22373.492,"text":"不好意思這是別人的提案我就不想來一個人的提案不過我是覺得勞動部局對於增換設備之養護會因其具備不對外開放公民眾使用特性然後侷限內部職員因不同的餐飲需求而進行執行或使用操作"},{"start":22374.466,"end":22386.796,"text":"是以不具備有公共服務性質之下允許職員自行籌購或養物為宜故編列在公務預算時有公器適用之不當然後把你們凍結你們沒有意見"},{"start":22389.132,"end":22413.324,"text":"然後立法院也有冰箱你們覺得這個案不要這樣子苛刻人家了為難基層公務員人家炸扁冬要起的沒有冰箱可以冰你們對這個案沒有意見被重建立法院還有冰箱還有微波爐還有蒸飯的然後我跟妳提的案妳說的經濟妳的經濟是什麼東西我不清楚"},{"start":22418.247,"end":22418.956,"text":"而理由我不要給你凍結。"},{"start":22421.38,"end":22450.289,"text":"那個我忘記你是在幹什麼的那個部長部長說明那個跟陳說明齁剛才那案其實比較是在這個病動是在一般行政下的病動啦齁那可是說實話就像剛才說的那個偵犯設備的那個題目其實確實是我們這個基層人員的需要我也覺得是我請局長再可以再多做一點說明我覺得要把實際的狀況可以讓大家知道齁"},{"start":22451.354,"end":22460.173,"text":"那這個該精進的事情我們會精進可是我說就以剛才那個偵犯設備那真的是我們實際上面的需求對"},{"start":22463.771,"end":22481.704,"text":"你不知道你們什麼案子就是說他們說勞保局裡面有偵犯設備這個偵犯設備沒有對民眾開放只有勞保局的人在用然後就認為不合理要給人家凍結和檢列不要說偵犯設備我們立法院連冰箱都用了一個"},{"start":22482.284,"end":22485.707,"text":"立法院的偵犯設備也沒有開放民眾使用,也不應該有嗎?"},{"start":22503.84,"end":22505.342,"text":"沒有啦 這陳委員這樣太離譜了啦 要減劣10%因為他們的蒸飯設備養護費"},{"start":22515.112,"end":22541.613,"text":"徵犯設備是基本設施啦跟水、飲水的供給、集水機是一模一樣的需求而且不應該只有徵犯設備因為我們街道陳情也要一些冰箱你知道去帶便當來沒有冰箱的冰放在中間這裡蒸便當夏天會壞掉裡面有那個海產的話那如果你叫他一早上班就去蒸蒸到中午能吃嗎?"},{"start":22546.162,"end":22564.777,"text":"這個164案不要剪裂也不要凍結啦這個不要用這樣子一般行政164案 這當然是我們基層的基本的需求所以當然很希望可以爭取真的是 你們就保留啦那個剛剛164案 這一案凍1千萬 病凍病凍1千萬"},{"start":22571.124,"end":22597.371,"text":"啊那有簡列案欸那個是他有簡列是不是之前那個動一千萬的是我這邊提的164這個案子應該是不要處理啦改革案啊就是勞保波普165案才是凍結一千萬沒有164也是並動一千萬164應該不要處理啦欸欸王雨164就不要處理就好了我的案子動一千萬就好了啦好啦"},{"start":22597.711,"end":22603.298,"text":"你的案子是補助勞保撥補,你給他動一千萬幹嘛?勞保撥補是怎麼做不好?勞保撥補很好啊,沒撥補會倒捏"},{"start":22616.243,"end":22617.244,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":22631.42,"end":22633.321,"text":"政府不撥補第一次是叫勞工和副主掌保費嗎?好啦好啦不要再吵了啦"},{"start":22660.74,"end":22664.383,"text":"不要再吵了,我們現在已經在討論180案了不要再吵了,現在已經是180案了"},{"start":22682.899,"end":22688.689,"text":"我再確認一次齁剛剛病棟一般行政1000萬的是不是164案165案167案175案是不是這樣子"},{"start":22698.567,"end":22701.868,"text":"並動一般行政一千萬,是嗎?就四案嗎?164、165、167、175?如果委員可以同意不動,我們謝謝委員。"},{"start":22718.894,"end":22725.416,"text":"164若可以不要動我們當然也希望能夠爭取不要動啦。 並動好啦沒關係啦並動沒關係啦好啦先這樣子啦就剛剛已經通過了啦好啦那180案那個劉委員"},{"start":22733.319,"end":22752.295,"text":"對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,"},{"start":22754.551,"end":22770.763,"text":"他說要印刷防治黃紐宣導職業啦吼介紹黃紐常見的常見的注意聽啊常見的框片畫素剝削手法等內容然後提供給醫療院所協助發放啊供民眾就醫索取這第一啦吼第二是什麼"},{"start":22772.608,"end":22788.333,"text":"第二就是診斷證明書徵修失能診斷書是委員陪同陪同與病患關係確認是否有非家屬人員陪同然後已請辦事處防查協助被保險人自行申請以免剝削"},{"start":22789.894,"end":22813.124,"text":"我講抱歉啦,大家不小心聽看看後面叫剝削嘛,前面那個叫框片畫素嘛剝削手法等內容嘛對不對那我們就很清楚他這樣沒有過程犯罪他如果沒有過程犯罪那如果你要一勞永逸你要經濟的做法應該是在法律上你必須要來處理了"},{"start":22814.468,"end":22821.047,"text":"而不是在持續用這種宣導的方式嘛因為不到位嘛你們的不到位你跟我講叫做精進的方案"},{"start":22822.608,"end":22847.718,"text":"那個委員我剛剛已經有跟局長說了我覺得我們在做法上面確實這個大概是不太能夠使用這個部分來交代的啦那我覺得我們就我們凍結好不好我們可以跟委員討論一個凍結的你如果今天你是在勞動部還是勞保局相關的官員你的親戚家屬遇到這個狀況然後被剝削"},{"start":22850.879,"end":22879.04,"text":"然後來找你你說你跟簽了合約你上了法院你愛莫能助你的親戚你的家屬情何以堪然後你說我已經有在精進了我現在提供這樣的精進你跟我講你就這樣叫做精進方案嗎你如果敢跟我講說這樣叫做精進方案我不動不散一句話嘿我就不動不散啊你如果要跟我講這個叫精進計畫我就不動不散我希望從你嘴巴講出來啊"},{"start":22880.317,"end":22908.929,"text":"委員是不是可以容我們就相關怎麼樣能夠杜絕黃牛雖然現在有做一些努力可是誠如剛剛委員講我們應該還要再思考一些其他相關的配套或精進措施那也容我們可以邀集我想我們也可以找學者專家來提供我們一些相關建議所以這個案子是不是容我們有一些在後續往下的一個持續督促的力量是不是可以就併著剛才前面有個案子也是保險業務凍結10萬元那我們就後續我們研議怎麼樣可以精進的作為部分"},{"start":22909.309,"end":22932.327,"text":"我們進一步提出來這個事情牽涉到兩個層面第一個第一個被保險人自行申請是遇到什麼樣的困難對不對怎麼需要借助這個勞保的房紐對不對如果今天是自行去申請假使他申請就是困難重重還是申請的額度就是幾乎額度就很低"},{"start":22933.487,"end":22959.563,"text":"他當然就是要借助這一端嘛,對嗎?所以我才助長這一端,司法房友的慎行然後司法房友的慎行又讓他這個司法房友這四個字好像不見了他好像是一個勞保代替申請的重建業變成法院可以去認證,讓你們勞保局束手無策我覺得這很衝突啦,對我來講是一個非常衝突的一件事,很矛盾的事情"},{"start":22961.807,"end":22972.654,"text":"對阿然後勞工繳了勞保費自己遇到被保險自己遇到事情要提出申請他要遇到這樣的狀況那我們身為這樣的一個主管機關我們通通按摩輪柱"},{"start":22976.658,"end":23001.111,"text":"所以這個是什麼問題 你們要答覆我嘛齁 你如果覺得說這樣就夠了我就跟你講我不這樣不動啊 我只是把問題講出來而已啊 但如果說我們真的還有真正的改善經濟的方案讓我們勞保的被保險人不要這樣被剝削 然後我們再申請勞保的給付的時候 可能會更加的 就實際上的認定然後整個的給付會更加的順暢"},{"start":23002.091,"end":23014.943,"text":"那我想這個行業早就不見了就沒有你所謂的框片啊就沒有你所謂的所謂的什麼對啊就框片嘛你們自己也寫框片啊啊你怎麼會讓你的被保險人員要被框片"},{"start":23017.069,"end":23035.095,"text":"委員有提示我們一些後續再思考的一個方向那就現行勞保黃牛部分的一個問題喔的確現行在相關規定裡面民眾被保險要申請給付在法規規定是透過投保單位來申請那的確剛剛我們會提到話數是因為實務上就像詐騙一樣有時候"},{"start":23038.216,"end":23061.174,"text":"黃牛會跟民眾說透流我這邊來申請我可以幫你申請比較多的錢啊其實事實不是這樣那至於要怎麼樣去配套除了剛才提到的宣導或者是目前我們在相關的一個防治作為上面針對投保單位其實他來代鑒申請的時候如果發現有一樣其實實務上的確他們會附上小條子如果我們這邊看到或醫院社工這邊留意到的時候也會特別注意"},{"start":23061.494,"end":23072.792,"text":"那我想是不是容這一部分我們再找學者專家我們再來精進到底是在相關的法制上要做配套還是實務執行面要配套不只是在宣導層面部分容我們做一個相關的一個精進作為"},{"start":23075.39,"end":23081.955,"text":"因為這個已經討論好久我們是不是可以這個案子就凍結那個保險業務10萬元病案凍結我凍結你10萬元我就不用凍結了"},{"start":23092.329,"end":23093.029,"text":"好那180案保留180案"},{"start":23118.379,"end":23119.079,"text":"181案改組決議182案改組決議183案改組決議184案"},{"start":23137.01,"end":23158.618,"text":"184案是廖委員關心有關於我們勞保財務的問題要給民眾正確的一個資訊概念那有關這部分的話勞動部這邊持續來辦相關的一個政府撥補確保制度的文件那局體這邊跟勞動部也持續透過多元的宣導提供民眾正確的相關勞保資訊那是不是這部分可以容委員同意我們並動保險業務10萬元那提書面報告廖委員我嗎"},{"start":23163.513,"end":23168.525,"text":"沒有啊這是媒體經費嗎那就是在老寶的這些問題的啊"},{"start":23171.57,"end":23193.807,"text":"博卜了3800多億然後有潛在負債破產的疑慮但是你們在宣傳經費上面看起來看似沒有對民眾傳達正確的概念那也是強調說博卜是這個改革之口號有誤導之嫌那我想過去審預算是希望政府為人民好好做實際上現在看起來這些"},{"start":23194.668,"end":23213.995,"text":"公帑有可能洋網軍故裝還有違法挪用的狀況所以現在才會有這個謝宜榮事件嘛所以其實不是不給媒體宣傳費喔是勞動部要如何讓人們相信這個媒體宣傳費不會讓人家不會拿來亂用所以我建議這一題這一條就是保留送協商那個部長說明"},{"start":23220.171,"end":23243.531,"text":"那個跟掉人說明就是勞保的真的勞保的這個保險業務的宣傳其實他都是真的不是什麼要去做什麼很花俏的東西其實真的都是關於一般民眾市井小民的的他在勞保上面的權益的知情其實真的都是這些事情我們也可以我也可以請業務單位把這個相關宣傳的一些細項"},{"start":23244.572,"end":23272.663,"text":"其實都可以提供給委員其實可以來參與那真的是很希望是說這部分可以多支持因為這真的是關於民眾知情的權益我想知情的權益當然很重要啊但是就像我剛剛說的其實看起來我沒有剪裂嘛我是用我是用凍結的嘛所以我的意思就是說因為有這些狀況我剛剛講的那些綜合那些狀況所以我是用凍結的方式我知道民眾知情權很重要所以我建議就是保留送協商"},{"start":23273.826,"end":23290.042,"text":"跟委員這邊做報告,我想委員非常關心我們勞保財務的一個穩健那制度讓那個穩健的運作下去我想是在座每一位都關心那回到勞保局這個業務項這個預算科目計畫管理業務他主要用來辦的就是我們各地有辦事處"},{"start":23290.883,"end":23307.47,"text":"我們辦事處其實提供給民眾的就是臨櫃服務那也有接受電話的一些相關諮詢或者現在剛才劉委員也特別關心到的我們怎麼樣在勞保房有一些相關業務上面的宣導這種說明會其實都是用這個科目下面在辦理那如果這個凍結15%我們算了一下其實凍結500多萬的確對業務在運作上面會有極大的一個困難"},{"start":23314.853,"end":23341.774,"text":"那是不是可以容委員這邊可以同意我們這個案子就經費上面可以不要動那麼多那針對後續我們在執行上面那像剛才部長提到的勞保局這邊的宣導我們主要是針對法令部分來告知民眾那民眾可以清楚什麼樣的給付可以申請什麼樣的加保對象他是符合我們的加保資格我們都是在做這一方面的宣導那相關我們的一個廣播的廣播文稿不是啊你現在講當然是這樣嘛對不對"},{"start":23343.856,"end":23351.655,"text":"對所以你現在講的是這樣沒有錯嘛那我只是凍結那我後面也有說你兩兩個月內像我們提出專案報告經同意就可以解凍嘛"},{"start":23355.609,"end":23363.656,"text":"因為這個是保險業務的錢你這是媒體經費,我是媒體宣傳經費計劃管理是整個保險經費裡面相關的其中辦理各說明會、臉書、宣導、製作等相關的媒體經費須業務費大概是256萬多臉書上面的經營大概是200萬那相關我們在業務宣導說明會部分臉書上面的經營200萬、200多萬"},{"start":23383.513,"end":23387.334,"text":"我請勞保局提供給你我們這一個科目上面到底都是怎麼樣用的細目我都可以提供這完全都可以提供"},{"start":23412.509,"end":23425.097,"text":"是不是那個184案185案先暫時先保留然後讓勞動部這邊先跟你說明好不好我們先保留我們真的可以讓委員心目都讓委員先看我們先保留不然實在是時間好不好184、185我們都先保留然後勞動部趕快去說明喔186案186案書委員同意改為主決議"},{"start":23439.926,"end":23441.767,"text":"186案改組決議187案187案改組決議188案改組決議189案189案是劉委員的案子委員現在不在場"},{"start":23456.892,"end":23462.456,"text":"委員不在保留189案保留190案190案陳委員同意改為主決議190案改組決議191案改組決議192案改組決議193秋委員同意改組決議193改組決議194案"},{"start":23480.29,"end":23483.791,"text":"194案楊委員同意併案凍結保險業務10萬元提書面報告194案同意併案凍結保險業務10萬元195案195陳委員不在195保留196案王委員同意改組決議196案改組決議197案"},{"start":23501.737,"end":23520.248,"text":"197案是六委員關心我們農保資格宣導還有清查的作業那在這邊也特別跟委員報告勞保局受託農業部辦理農保的業務那我們也積極配合主管機關以及農會在辦理相關的一個農保清查那除了定期比對資料之外農業部會針對有"},{"start":23521.989,"end":23548.345,"text":"加保資格餘率的名冊會提供給農會這邊來做查核農會如果查核發現他的資格不符會向勞保局這邊來申報退保那這邊相關的數我看現在上面就是預180日才取消資格我是覺得這個東西是不是應該是不是應該更積極的去去通知主動通知所以我也是用凍結的方式希望這個業務是不是可以"},{"start":23550.147,"end":23567.948,"text":"執行的更加的好。比如說每季上網公開清查作業結果或是每季向這個立法院提這個資格查核的結果或取消資格人數的一個簡單的書面報告或是你上網公開每一次查核的狀況是怎麼樣這是我凍結的一個理由。"},{"start":23569.089,"end":23594.197,"text":"各位委員報告我想委員是關心這整個農保資格的一個相關運作執行情形那剛才提到說在相關法規裡面勞農重複不能超過180天或者是說農保裡面他有一些相關加保資格的規定我想資格的規定這個在法令端我們會跟農業部這邊來做反應相關怎麼樣去配合那局裡面針對農會那邊清查不符合資格來跟我們申報退保相關的一個辦理情形"},{"start":23594.637,"end":23605.23,"text":"委員這邊是不是可以容我們這個案子因為是保險業務我們凍結10萬元然後我們就相關我們後續的一個辦理情形每一年的一個宣導跟每一年跟農會之間農業部這邊我們來跟委員做報告我覺得這個應該是這樣吧就是"},{"start":23611.806,"end":23625.681,"text":"因為其實凍結是可以解凍嘛所以你可以把我們的這些需求我們想要了解的東西到時候你提書面報告經我們同意就可以解凍了是是我們就改成治病案凍結保險業務10萬元然後我們提書面報告"},{"start":23628.143,"end":23648.633,"text":"並剛才其他的因為保險業務跟委員報告因為勞保局這邊收錢發錢每一個民眾來我們今天發一個幾付一個行政處分我們要寄發行政處分那個都是郵寄費或者資料進來key in那個其實都是相關資料輸入的相關的經費這個費用的確我們在運用上是比較拮据一點每當有空間 若是凍結50萬了"},{"start":23650.214,"end":23666.664,"text":"真的比較困難事情我們一定會遵照委員剛才所提的辦理那經費是不是可以拜託委員容我們有一點比較可以運用的因為這真的是郵寄費很謝謝委員同意動10萬好不好好197案動10萬元並動並案凍結10萬提書面報告好保險業務並案凍結保險業務提書面報告"},{"start":23679.543,"end":23692.674,"text":"同意併案凍結保險業務10萬元提書面報告198案198案 溫委員也是關心農保資格宣導是不是我們跟剛才那個案子一併來做處理那也是併案凍結保險業務10萬元是 那個溫委員嗎他們剛剛已經有說明"},{"start":23708.018,"end":23736.271,"text":"委員因為農保我們涉及整個農民部分那相關在加保退保資格查查繳款單計法剛才提到的油資費這個都是基礎的業務處理費用所以這個經費真的以這個科目而言農保業務就是700多萬所以如果整個動了200多萬其實對業務上在運作上面的確會比較困難那懇請委員是不是可以同意我們用保險業務動10萬元那事情裡面委員所關注我們一定會"},{"start":23737.651,"end":23757.339,"text":"對你們來講沒有任何拘束力而且就是說你們不會真的認真的去檢討這個業務嘛現在真的取消農保資格的人越來越多啊對所以10萬元沒有意義啦我是講說動100萬啦動100萬然後你們要把那個報告書要交下來然後我們看了半天就已經跟我說只有動10萬"},{"start":23758.632,"end":23781.873,"text":"郭文貴想跟郭文貴說明因為這一個科目裡面真的都是關於這些寄發文件的郵資等等等的需求這其實並不是我們有很大的這個行政財量要用多或用少的部分所以他其實算起來應該就是要700多萬就是按照現在的農保的人數然後等等等他其實就是這個數額"},{"start":23784.435,"end":23797.13,"text":"對所以我們並沒有刪減你的而是說是只是先暫時先凍結100萬啊若這樣的話我剛說10萬我真的不能接受那我本來是這邊是算的是200萬那你現在好我可以願意妥協到100萬"},{"start":23799.431,"end":23824.11,"text":"然後你們要去做一個加強宣導以及清查作業的這個報告書這樣的話才可以那個可不可以在數額上面再降低一點因為這個真的100萬對在整體的比例真的不低然後這真的是很硬的需求我說很硬的需求不是我們自己有行政裁量空間用多用少的這每一個就是一個勞保的權益人他其實要收到相關的文件他其實就是這樣一點一點"},{"start":23825.171,"end":23829.347,"text":"加上來的這我們沒有太多行政的空間說我要多或要少"},{"start":23831.089,"end":23834.091,"text":"你現在退保的人那麼多,你們還會有那麼多的郵費需求嗎?"},{"start":23834.091,"end":23854.707,"text":"這當然都是經過精算的數字啊對,我們也是經過精算,所以你不要以為說我是隨便亂提出來的不是,當然沒有這樣認為 當然你的這樣意思的話,似乎認為說我們都是隨便亂提這個報告結束 不是,不是這樣子,我並不是這個意思 所以我覺得,所以我認為說,你們應該要積極的提出如果要加強宣導及清查作業的這個報告書,然後先動100萬"},{"start":23858.309,"end":23877.131,"text":"委員是不是可以容我們後續剛剛提到的這700多萬我們所需要包含油資等等這個業務的一個相關的經費配置還有剛剛委員關注我們現行跟農會農業部這邊因為我們是受託業務那我們在相關業務可具執行的一個範圍部分我們來跟委員這邊做一個報告那這個案子可不可以先保留"},{"start":23878.991,"end":23887.756,"text":"問委員是讓勞動部再跟你說明那你們提供比較正確的好就是相關的資料給那個問委員知道好那我們這一案先保留了那勞動部趕快去跟我委員說明那我們一"},{"start":23900.919,"end":23911.105,"text":"198案先保留199案199案書委員同意改組決議199案改組決議200案200案邱委員也同意測案200案同意測案201案201案蘇委員已經同意測案201案同意測案202案202案邱委員也同意測案202案同意測案203案"},{"start":23927.418,"end":23933,"text":"203案部分的話賴委員已經同意改為主決議204案吳委員這邊同意做文字修正已簽署205案蘇委員已經同意簡列20萬元已簽署"},{"start":23947.605,"end":23949.707,"text":"205案同意檢列20萬科目執行調整 206案邱委員今拜會已經同意凍結100萬元已簽署"},{"start":23961.892,"end":23965.695,"text":"206案是凍結100萬元已簽署。 206案凍結100萬。 207案委員同意併案凍結100萬元已簽署。 207案併案凍結100萬。 併206凍結100萬。"},{"start":23986.511,"end":24013.632,"text":"兩百零八案兩百零八案委員那個我們陳昭芝委員這邊所關切的是青年朋友的失業的問題那提醒我們要再繼續精進對青年的相關服務措施那這個部分我們遵照委員的指示不管是在青年朋友的職業的一個能力上的一個培訓或者是在他們投入重點產業相關那個支持上我們都會繼續的來努力那是不是委員這邊的凍結一百萬元的部分我們遵照辦理可是可不可以請委員同意我們併案"},{"start":24014.833,"end":24042.379,"text":"並在206跟207一起並動。 206這個206、207不相關啊。我現在重點還是這個青年就業方案因為你們112年的執行情形雖然青年那個就業情形失業情形有下降但是你的關鍵這個績效指標確實還有幾項還沒有達到而且連續四年你到目前為止做了也不夠好啊"},{"start":24042.759,"end":24059.076,"text":"是,我們承認這個部分確實還有而且都輸人家,OECD要輸人家蠻多的所以這個部分你如果沒有好好做一個說明或是未來要怎麼再做青年就業是,因為台灣的青年朋友他們的一個學歷"},{"start":24060.017,"end":24076.108,"text":"跟他在學校學習的時間比OECD的其他國家來得長所以他在投入就業市場的時間也比較晚所以衍生在失業率的一個狀況跟OECD比起來會有稍微比較高的情形那我們也有發現這樣的一個問題跟委員所關心的是一樣的所以這部分我會繼續來努力"},{"start":24078.049,"end":24103.643,"text":"這個發言應該在寫研究計畫的時候就已經有了應該要知道應該要從這個部分去但是你就讓這個績效的指標看起來就是不理想的對就是還沒有達到那因為這是一個四年的一個二期的一個計畫所以我們會繼續往這個方向來努力看看能不能在三年後能夠達成那你們本來是希望你們能夠做專案報告因為這個議題太重要了是那做專案報告你們有意見嗎"},{"start":24105.368,"end":24132.169,"text":"基本上我們就是針對委員的提案我們沒有意見那我現在先是動你們100萬元有困難嗎可不可以併案併著前面兩岸的委員的提案併案科目裡面是不是可以讓我們併案這樣就好你把它併案然後你會有一份是屬於這個我們的檢討報告傳送會議對"},{"start":24136.874,"end":24145.86,"text":"208病案凍結100萬然後提書面報告209案209案是劉健委員的一個提案210案"},{"start":24165.117,"end":24174.522,"text":"二一零案王委員這邊有提示要保留送鞋箱二一零案保留鞋箱要嘛就同意我3減100萬凍結200萬要嘛就送鞋箱"},{"start":24178.266,"end":24195.784,"text":"因為這個案子這個勞發署這一次你們在那個裝潢的費用那那個謝勇這個案子你們這個裝潢費都把它弄到這個署長室去這樣子這個濫用這樣子的一個項目這個外界其實完全都是沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":24197.233,"end":24219.525,"text":"那個跟我跟完說明好不好我我我我自己來說明好第一個確實這邊有相關經費我自己在我我們現在在檢討裡面也覺得應該要從救安基金盡量轉轉到公務預算來使用那我們現在在省的其實就是公務預算的部分好那過去勞發署為什麼有這麼多的這些基本的行政維持會用"},{"start":24220.385,"end":24235.686,"text":"就案基金的原因其實就是因為公共預算的編列是不足的所以我們是真的很希望在公務預算這部分真的不要再做刪減因為在這邊刪減反而對於他要去使用就過去研習下來使用就案基金狀況其實反而會有點雪上加霜"},{"start":24236.328,"end":24263.662,"text":"那針對剛剛王委員指教這個提醒的這些相關過這個不OK的狀況包括是不適宜的使用狀況我們現在正在檢討中我想這個已經承諾未完委員會我們會在一個月提出這個檢討的做法的說明可是因為這個是在公務預算裡面我們很希望這公務預算真的不要再刪減反而我們就是知道公務預算不夠所以才用他們才用必須用救安基金現在如果又刪公務預算的話"},{"start":24264.702,"end":24286.809,"text":"反而狀況不會好轉這部分希望我愛人可以幫幫幫幫主這邊多做這個部分的考慮那就改動300萬不刪改動300因為你們很快檢討報告就會出來嗎就改動300210我們那個2986萬"},{"start":24293.438,"end":24300.664,"text":"這個我們可不可以我們可不可以十分之一好不好兩百你們劉建國還動五百了"},{"start":24301.568,"end":24323.959,"text":"對,但是這個我們會再跟留言討論啦但是我一說這真的是因為這現在其實對法案署來說公務預算的使用都是他們非常非常珍貴的資源因為真的已經不夠了就是因為不夠所以他們才要用這麼多的救安基金我知道那個部長因為你剛剛已經允諾嘛一個月之後你的檢討未來怎麼更省身使用其實就出來所以你一點都不需要擔心好不好你那個出來之後這個"},{"start":24324.939,"end":24350.414,"text":"這個就可以解凍了,所以就凍300,謝謝那可不可以拉到一般行政的項目讓我們有比較大的這個大的項目下面去好,那就是凍300好,謝謝謝謝委員好,210案凍結300在那個一般行政科目好,211案那210委員說關切的也是水電費的問題那委員不在我們先保留"},{"start":24351.778,"end":24361.308,"text":"是那212我們陳昭之委員所關切的也是水電費的這個部分的議題不曉得委員可不可以支持我們這個部分212212"},{"start":24370.232,"end":24397.695,"text":"還蠻多的啦你如果電費漲這麼多然後你說你去年又不太夠但是這個26%實在是還是超過了啦這個我相信陳委員應該可以了解過去其實就是編列不夠那在編列不夠的狀況下面再加上因為這個電價的調漲兩個因素同時加成本來還有個節電目標欸對但是我聽說我們都要節電會盡量做但是是這兩個因素同時加成所以才會增加這個額度"},{"start":24400.475,"end":24407.338,"text":"公務及基金預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查公務及基金預算．一、繼續審查公務及基金預算．一、繼續審查公務及基金預算．一、繼續審查公務及基金預算．一、繼續審查公務及基金預算．一、"},{"start":24427.148,"end":24450.596,"text":"因為以前就是編一直不足今年是行政院特別考慮才讓大家盡量能夠去編組以前就是該用的都被挪用啦你這個一直跟我說不足我就聽了這個越來越奇怪就是怎麼會編這麼客氣啊都一直編不足欸因為以前就是延期前一年的狀況所以一直以來這部分編列就不足所以使用的超額就變成要用其他的地方來去做指引這其實反而不是一個健康的狀況"},{"start":24452.842,"end":24470.551,"text":"那如果說是10%、10%、20%我剛剛在算20%那你們到26%如果說那個6%就是你們就是要按照規矩去編列嘛不是說我覺得還是OK啦剛剛水電費其實大家都有一點放"},{"start":24472.413,"end":24497.975,"text":"這個電費的部分其實我一定會嚴格來要求我們的所屬其實要把能源效率給提高啦但是我說這真的這真的沒有什麼太多我們行政的空間或者是要濫用的空間真的沒有空間那這真的是平常我們這些相關分屬的實質的部分那這個上單是實質實負的那扣個5%就你們增加20%電費是10%嘛那你以後說去年前年都不夠"},{"start":24499.276,"end":24522.61,"text":"但是不夠你怎麼會你就怎麼一直長期不我就不理解啊健康的狀況啊不健康你們繼續忍耐喔過去過去就是不健康的狀況所以才希望說能夠讓他回歸到正規比較健康的來去使用這個項目不然其實到時候也是一種挪用的情況我們就是不希望在當時的前幾年都是這種挪用的情況在發生不能再挪用了啦"},{"start":24523.17,"end":24547.828,"text":"對所以過去是挪用所以現在就是希望不要再挪用所以才希望再把它就是時知時復該用多少我們就編多少其實概念就是這樣子而已所以你要全部還回去的全部都要的意思囉可是請問同意改組決議我們可不可以改組決議那我們來把節電或者是能源效率給做到更好我們可不可以用組決議的方式來處理這個事情組決議當中要寫上你的目標是什麼"},{"start":24549.149,"end":24565.361,"text":"我們節能的做法精進的做法然後包括引進專業的做法我們都可以寫在裡面因為今天大家幾乎都接受你們說以前沒編組然後這次超過我們預期的這個數字那就是說你的組決議你要說明的時候就要總會有個目標吧"},{"start":24566.563,"end":24585.651,"text":"這是一步趕上囉一步到位了我們的主決意會把我們在節能跟能源效率上面會精進的做法尤其已經更多專業的做法我們在這邊讓委員都知道好不好因為等於我們也在承受啊對我們這屆委員還在承受以前你說沒有邊組的事情有一點點為難我們我們其實也是在這個情況之下"},{"start":24586.591,"end":24597.056,"text":"麻煩委員支持好不好這部分好謝謝好那212案改組決議我們是不是先休息一下好不好讓大家先休息一下休息10分鐘"},{"start":24608.643,"end":24633.456,"text":"禮儀禮儀"},{"start":24634.036,"end":24657.343,"text":"他寫真分就被我誤會了他寫那個都知書就繳了而且那個是公務人員必必必要的證詞你還要給他寫但你換你自己去寫都必須給你寫他不用寫到這樣立法委員辦公室裡面連寫到可是那個是自己花錢買的啊立法院的店勒但是他砍的不行"},{"start":25238.459,"end":25264.68,"text":"好我們繼續開會大家安靜齁我們繼續開會好213案跟主席報告213案陳俊賢委員的提案經過溝通同意改為主決議已簽署好213案改主決議214案214案圖委員的溝通那個委員支持同意簡列一萬元已簽署"},{"start":25265.672,"end":25282.847,"text":"二一四案檢列一萬元二一五案二一五托委員同意改為主決議以簽署二一五案改主決議二一六案二一五案我說明一下好托委員好因為這有部分的還是要提醒一下因為我們現在"},{"start":25284.008,"end":25310.745,"text":"去年開始新住民人數已經超過原住民那今年應該也會超過60萬那在內政委員會我們也通過新住民的基本法那我們這次主要就是也感謝勞動部勞發署針對我們促進新住民就業補助作業要點這部分也即將要修正將規劃外國人的部分也納入補助的要點嘛"},{"start":25311.425,"end":25338.691,"text":"那讓業之前像新住民在這一塊他們就沒有補助那如果這修正的話讓我們新住民朋友不會成為就業促進的孤兒那可是還有一點就要提醒我們勞動部在針對新住民基本法第二條的部分吼還有規定該法保障的對象及新住民的子女那我們現在希望針對新住民子女的部分就業促進還有職業訓練"},{"start":25341.071,"end":25360.823,"text":"這些服務希望我們勞動部要注意要來加強對他們這一方面的照顧啊是跟委員報告這個部分我們會依據我們跟內政部這邊所掌握到的新住民朋友那他有他的下一代這個部分我們會把相關的一個服務的資訊來做進一步的傳遞讓他們可以有機會可以得到這樣的資訊來使用"},{"start":25362.612,"end":25389.011,"text":"對,因為我們希望這第二條對於新住民子女的部分一定要加強的注意來照顧是,謝謝委員指導好,215案改組決議216案216案我們林淑芬委員針對發展署的人力與配置失衡要求要再提出具體的改善的一個管理計畫所以要凍結特資費五分之一林委員"},{"start":25400.521,"end":25416.908,"text":"我其實不是要砍你的預算啦其實我們在講是說這個承攬人力的那個不合理啦整個正式緣額跟整個承攬上在工作上這樣子的配置是不合理啊你們人事總署協調的結論是要怎麼做"},{"start":25417.688,"end":25440.007,"text":"之前我們是有一部分爭取到可以用現在的約用人員的緣額來兌換成為編制人員那我們目前的目標是先把這個可以做配置調整的一個部分先把它人力補食之後再做下一階段的安排處理全部勞發署多少人全部勞發署我忘掉了不要講北分署全部整個就是"},{"start":25441.608,"end":25465.638,"text":"本部的話是八全部啦各分數加起來三千九三千九裡面正式公務員資格有多少八零六八零六啊約聘僱有多少約聘僱大約九十位然後其他都是勞務承攬還有我們的約用人員就是臨時人力臨時人力這種一千兩百位"},{"start":25468.332,"end":25481.172,"text":"這種都是從事什麼工作是我們的承辦同仁幫忙編制人員正式人員做一些一千二加九百等於兩千一兩千一那裡勞務承攬就是一千八是"},{"start":25482.978,"end":25499.771,"text":"你們現在希望要改製成什麼樣子?目前的配置會是改成什麼樣子?我們這一次爭取到的是50位的編製同那個編製增加50位編製對但是我們必須要少掉63位的約用人員就是臨時人員要少掉"},{"start":25500.253,"end":25518.9,"text":"好那還不是一樣一模一樣我們現在講的是承攬的人因為承攬的人你沒有指揮監督權欸不然就叫他做事啊我們剛剛講的約用人員就是我們自己的僱用的臨時人力這邊少掉63不是啦你僱用的人力你是可以指揮監督權的啊你正式援和也是有指揮監督權啊"},{"start":25520.02,"end":25537.2,"text":"那現在人力出在沒有指揮監督權那些人,你在現場沒辦法叫他幫你倒三天的,不是嗎?無信公務員的問題就是他那個旁邊有五個城攬啊,可是他沒辦法指揮監督啊,啊雖然可以指揮監督也做不來,因為那一個數位計畫也不應該是市級"},{"start":25541.064,"end":25553.913,"text":"市集單位去執行啦不應該啦但是如果說一個市集單位可執行的業務你旁邊都是承攬的話他也沒有人可以用啦因為不能指揮監督嘛那我們講的是說保證立條你們不是去爭取了這個50個編制內的緣額"},{"start":25559.817,"end":25571.123,"text":"結果少掉了是臨時人力那朝三暮四跟朝四暮三不是一樣嗎所以總數問題不是在於正式緣和加上臨時人力總數問題不是在這裡總數的問題是承攬的人數太多"},{"start":25576.146,"end":25586.917,"text":"這個跟委員說明齁其實剛剛書長講的其實這是之前跟人種爭取到的方案簡單來說它是結構的失衡阿對但我等於說它其實原本它是一個結構的失衡阿就是從正式人員"},{"start":25593.163,"end":25597.746,"text":"我自己是打算我們在這段時間的檢討結束以後我要再跟人種希望能夠再爭取下一輪的改善"},{"start":25623.359,"end":25634.746,"text":"我我我現在很不解就是說因為你的約用再加上你正式人力事實上都是目前都還有指揮監督的啦"},{"start":25640.134,"end":25646.818,"text":"那個在溝通的這些同仁吼 教他們現在可不可以都離開好不好 都離開啦 要溝通是在開會以前啦 或休息時間啦 業務單位沒多好 我就這樣講你也這樣講 你們部長講什麼我就聽不啊 我講什麼你們部長就聽得到 在開會你們五座的人在現場同時在開"},{"start":25663.912,"end":25690.003,"text":"我們的意思是說其實你現在就是2100對1800就1比1啦就是有指揮監督權的跟沒有指揮監督權的是1比1啦那我們的意思是說你從以前的這個派遣要派公司有指揮監督權到現在只有承攬那承攬你的你的業務上是固定的業務發包的時候就固定了"},{"start":25690.923,"end":25715.451,"text":"對阿可是現場我們需要的可能是很多臨時性的東西你需要多一點人力來幫你阿所以這個承攬的部分你們沒有解決到承攬的人力過多的問題沒有解決到承攬人力的問題其實這個當然涉及到就是說這個我們包括一些我跟委員說明確實在發言署的業務裡面他們會有很多新的業務因為包括是這個"},{"start":25717.868,"end":25741.322,"text":"處境國民就業也好其實這會有一些新的情境所以他們常常在這新的情形下面會多很多新的計劃那可是這新的計劃的狀況之下就是變成是既有的人力又不足的狀況下所以他們就會開始要擴張很多的這個用承攬的人力來去執行這些業務可是執行的效果當然就像該委員這個指教的部分也不一定是最好的狀況"},{"start":25742.762,"end":25749.768,"text":"你們的質詢裡面還沒有證照喔你們要求民間的就業服務人員都要有證照你們都說這個彈性很大然後計畫很新興那因應這個即時的新興的計畫你們去承攬結果你們這個就業服務你們應該是要有證照的人士可是你們不敢對於承攬業務的人員要求有證照所以你們是不專業來服務這個失業不專業在服務失業"},{"start":25769.842,"end":25797.986,"text":"你們明天的失業,明天不專業的失業者在服務現在的失業者而已。 跟你們說明齁,其實剛才你們提醒的問題除了人力的結構要調,其實我認為在業務上面也必須檢討。因為承攬人力的多寡,很多時候是因為一些新的業務,既有的業務剪不掉,可是又必須加上新的業務,然後你真的是雲挪不出人力,所以你才必須用承攬的人力去解決這個問題。它有點像是一個應急的做法。"},{"start":25798.166,"end":25823.608,"text":"可是你們新興有這麼多每年都逐年增加很多每年都有多出這麼多嗎?其實一個很大的確實一個很大的原因是過去累積下來的一些業務那都已經是既有的計劃了那也就不是新興了可是可能針對不同的時間點會有不同的需求所以我自己是希望跟法人署來討論我們是希望來討論說可能有些既有的業務假設真的已經不符合現在這個時空所需的我們能不能來做一些整併"},{"start":25825.109,"end":25847.643,"text":"所以這裡面會牽涉到業務的檢討跟整併比較能夠去處理到承攬的人力這個過於龐大的這個部分但是人力的結構的問題這部分我們還是會來跟人種來爭取所以這有不同的層次的問題對但是你現在就有的正式原額加約用的人加起來是都還到底有缺口有多大"},{"start":25849.244,"end":25869.206,"text":"很大那為什麼行政部門比如說我舉一個不好的例子啊為什麼不再用這個派遣因為以前的派遣事實上其實都一直用啦可是我們都知道外國的例子是派遣用久了你就必須聘他為正式的啦"},{"start":25870.003,"end":25884.914,"text":"現在是大家都為了,你們如果勞動部的思考是為了必須非聘他不可而繼續去聘,這個包袱太重所以都用勞務承攬來規避這樣的一個道德責任,未來可能成為法律責任,在換位稱最慢啦。"},{"start":25886.836,"end":25909.394,"text":"大家都知道全世界派錢用久了你就同一個業務同一個人派錢一年派錢兩年派錢三年人家要約定說你這樣就是正式要聘用他了那你們為了上有政策下有對這個法律有規範事實上大家以前都討論說的確要法律規範起來所以怕這個道德壓力變成法律責任"},{"start":25910.094,"end":25918.995,"text":"所以你們就是說不再用派遣這樣子就太荒謬太離譜因為你們剛好為老闆雇主示範了一個如何取巧的方式"},{"start":25919.758,"end":25940.25,"text":"那個那個勞動部變成勞動部保障部所以所以我現在這部分我自己我們自己在這方面有兩個部分第一部分還是需要跟持續跟人種來爭取第二部分就是我自己覺得在業務上面的檢討跟整併才比較能夠去處理現在這個在承攬人力過多或者持續不斷累積的這個問題這是我們現在覺得需要來去處理的兩個層次的問題對"},{"start":25945.629,"end":25966.477,"text":"啊你們只爭取到50個一共全部有3900個爭取到50個的比例是不到四十分之一欸你們是嗯嗯這樣是多少3950個這樣比例是多少這真的是人種給我們合下來的八十分之一喔我們也需要更多真的是有點不知道要怎麼說了那你署長你自己說說看"},{"start":25975.782,"end":26000.592,"text":"那你要怎麼弄?還有你現在是少了兩個次長是不是?兩個次長都還沒補嗎?兩個次長的那個有特別費嗎?特別費只有首長啊。兩個次長的他的簡略用次長的啊。反正現在沒有次長嘛。"},{"start":26005.791,"end":26018.435,"text":"不像我們也沒有辦法擔負這麼多的業務的需求這也會非常吃力好來署長你自己說說看要怎麼處理這個不用我尊重委員的指導尊重委員的指導那你21萬就全數減劣囉不是啦凍結喔是"},{"start":26021.169,"end":26032.667,"text":"好了你凍結沒關係啦凍結啊你提出一個你們的改善計畫啦到底這個整個人力的配置的問題喔你告訴我說你們有沒有什麼中長期短期計畫中長期計畫"},{"start":26037.173,"end":26057.152,"text":"出分委員因為這個預算其實也不多啦他的全部特別費其實本來是要處罰以前的前署長的啦因為他是新署長我們也不好意思所以才叫他說結果他自己不說他說尊重我們他尊重我們我們就只好繼續凍結啦他自己都不敢說啊他不好意思說了"},{"start":26058.922,"end":26061.504,"text":"216案改組決議217案217案我們陳君委員已經這個同意改凍結20萬元已簽署"},{"start":26080.182,"end":26098.534,"text":"好217案凍結20萬218案218案賴會員委員已經同意改組決議218案改組決議主席主席這邊我可以確認一下因為這部分齁這個專案缺工獎勵措施齁阿沒到10%勒是阿這個"},{"start":26101.096,"end":26119.498,"text":"到底問題出在哪裡跟我們報告因為這個缺工的一個專案我們基本上是跟相關部會一起合作的那所以在相關的職缺的篩選我們會先做一步就是希望說他的薪資要達到至少一個合理的一個水準然後接下來我們才進行這個所謂的求財廠跟求職民眾的一個媒合"},{"start":26119.978,"end":26136.641,"text":"那每合的過程當中有一些是因為這個廠商他可能在招募的過程當中時程上有稍微有一些延宕所以有些求職的民眾如果同時有找到其他適合的應徵的機會他就往其他的一個職缺區投遞履歷也就應徵所以"},{"start":26138.102,"end":26163.804,"text":"有一些狀況是因為廠商的一個動作比較慢的一個結果那有一些是求職民眾本身他對這個工作環境跟工作條件覺得不符合他的一個期望所以會有供需兩端之間的一些客觀條件因素導致沒有辦法完成媒合那所以以我們公立救福機構來說我是盡量的推薦我們的推薦的比率有超過4倍左右的一個水準也就是說廠商如果提供一個職缺我們是提出四個人給他選"},{"start":26164.705,"end":26175.87,"text":"但是在這種情況之下目前還是有這個媒合比較低的一個效率的一個情形希望能夠更精準好218案改組決議219案219案我們賴會員委員已經同意改動結10萬元已簽署並動並案並案動"},{"start":26186.692,"end":26214.501,"text":"好,二一九案齁,病案動二一七案勞動力發展業務十萬元有嗎?二一七二一七是動二十啊科目那可以病二一九嗎?沒有沒有,二一七"},{"start":26216.775,"end":26222.443,"text":"二一九二一七單獨啦二一九就並下面的"},{"start":26225.765,"end":26248.035,"text":"那219就是病案凍結10萬元是然後220案那220案我問委員這邊所關切的是我們國家的一個競爭力的一個這個水準是不是有下滑的情形特別關注到有關我們勞動力的一個人口的一個成長的趨勢"},{"start":26248.915,"end":26261.839,"text":"跟高階人才跟移工存量等等這個部分勞動部需要再進一步加強人才培育跟就業服務工作那這個部分我們會遵照辦理那我目前已經同意並按動兩百萬元按以簽署並219並按動動多少兩百萬兩百萬哪裡219是動"},{"start":26276.277,"end":26291.134,"text":"二、一、九是動十萬。 二、一、九是動十萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。 也是動兩百萬。"},{"start":26292.935,"end":26318.481,"text":"二二一案二二一案我們曾召諸委員所關切的是我們的移工朋友他這個要在目前的一個制度之下常常會遭到仲介要求要這個收取買工費這個部分希望我們在制度上怎麼樣去做一個加強以避免移工落入這個弱勢的一個處境那所以有提案要做凍結那這個部分委員是不是已經同意併案凍結十萬元"},{"start":26321.636,"end":26336.462,"text":"你還沒有說明跟解釋啊怎麼直接跳到 那就這個部分跟委員報告目前這個部分我們為了杜絕我們的仲介公司他在收取在我們的法規所規範的可以收取方以外的相關的費用"},{"start":26338.924,"end":26353.722,"text":"對,這是違法收取不該收的費用所以我們主要是透過跟地方政府合作來加強相關的訪查工作只要查有他有超收不該收的費用的部分我們就會去進行後續的裁罰停業或者是廢止許可"},{"start":26354.082,"end":26375.408,"text":"那這個部分從111年到113年我們持續都在辦理這樣的工作當中那114年我們更加會進行專案把那個抽檢的一個比率再進一步拉高也加強宣導工作讓我們的移工朋友都知道說這個部分不是他應該出單你要怎麼查你是全面查嗎我們是抽抽抽抽案你抽案在百分比抽多少"},{"start":26383.188,"end":26399.038,"text":"我自己從當立委到現在都非常非常關注我不是有感覺我非常關注這裡面會有幾個幾個層次的問題比方說買公費的收取是移工他身上的一些聘僱文件或者是身份文件他被扣住"},{"start":26399.978,"end":26426.622,"text":"所以這個他會說你如果不繳買工費我就不給你這個事情對所以我們其實已經在包括我也跟法案署這邊來要求該把這些相關重要的聘僱文件或是論文件其實能夠上網的都能夠讓他可以上網去做download他不是就變只有一份好像只要被扣住了那他就必須要被迫去繳買工費我說這是從源頭來去克服這件事情"},{"start":26427.142,"end":26448.795,"text":"有一個部分是事後來查剛剛陳委員提到包括書長講是事後來查那我們要在事前就減少被扣住相關重要的文件而必須被迫收買工費的這件事情這不管是事前的或者是事後的我們絕對我絕對會大力的來做這些事情所以不是只是靠事後查部長那現在你知道抓到的違規律有多少"},{"start":26449.554,"end":26476.309,"text":"我們在一百一十一年查到有抄收的是十件一百一十二年是十三件十幾件對就是這個這一百一十三年的話是那個如果才十件那個母數看起來好像根本沒有我可以很直接說了這真的只要單靠事後來抓是很困難的所以一定要從事前把能夠收買工費為什麼能夠收的那個條件給盡量的杜絕"},{"start":26477.209,"end":26502.699,"text":"其實這才是處理這件事情的正辦所以我剛才說包括這些文件怎麼樣讓他上網可以上網就能夠申請得到其實這是這件事情很重要的關鍵那這很多委員都關注過去很多委員都關注那我們會來把這事情做到位那你現在說的是你打算要做的嗎對我們這是打算要做的這是打算就是要做的我已經我上任其實就交代發案署很多民間的組織關心我們很多委員也關心這件事情對"},{"start":26505.014,"end":26530.859,"text":"那這邊你可不可以只要請兩個同一併案就好了我們前面219、220併動的結果是兩百萬219、220併動 因為它是科目相同這是科目 科目相同我看一下2、210 同一筆 對"},{"start":26533.936,"end":26534.756,"text":"還有一案第222案"},{"start":26558.829,"end":26581.269,"text":"那223委員也關切的就是仲介跟移工收取服務費這個制度性的問題要持續的來檢討設法去做一些調整那這個案子其實在部長有特別提醒這個案子一定要好好的去了解各方的一個意見所以我們包括從來源國從民間團體從雇主端等等多方的意見其實"},{"start":26582.551,"end":26595.386,"text":"我先講部長你知道我們現在放在那個名單嗎那個惡名名單我也質詢過你啊台灣現在是被美國放在那個啊強迫勞動名單裡面啊已經放好幾年這個是很丟臉台灣支持欸"},{"start":26597.455,"end":26625.334,"text":"那就是移工為主嘛,那遠洋移工也都是都在其中嘛所以這個東西這個汙名到底是真的還是是誤會你要去把它澄清啊然後他也說是台灣現在唯一一個唯一的國家還在收這個跟他收這個重建公司跟移工收這個費用的招聘費他沒有欸只剩台灣欸哇這個台灣還有唯一的啊台灣什麼不跟上這個還跟到全世界第一個"},{"start":26627.114,"end":26645.842,"text":"這個很嚴重欸那這個也會影響整個臺灣臺美21世紀貿易的這個倡議的這個進行欸我諮詢好幾次從許部長我就諮詢到現在是像委員報告那呃移工的這個服務費呢他在入境的時候如果他覺得在入國工作期間也需要委員重建服務的話"},{"start":26646.622,"end":26672.898,"text":"他可以選擇跟重建簽委任的這個服務也可以選擇不要簽所以我們現在也...他有選擇簽嗎?他能簽嗎?被霸凌的人可以選擇不被霸凌嗎?所以我們現在也依著部長的指示有在加強我們各項直接像職聘中心像我們事務中心直接很多案子就可以自己辦理線上辦理也有四國語言來減少重建的影響你知道有多複雜嗎?"},{"start":26673.959,"end":26694.534,"text":"那個要走過幾個步驟然後去個好多個單位這個我都質詢過這個跟陳委員說跟陳委員說明齁其實我非常非常重視這個職聘的怎麼把它做到更好現有的職聘坦白說不到1%裡面其實對於很多職聘的功能都還存在很多障礙"},{"start":26695.254,"end":26707.888,"text":"所以這個關於流程上面而且關於這個整體我們在職聘的功能上面確實有需要強化的空間不然如果我們的職聘的功能沒有辦法做好的話當然大家就還會去找很多都會去找中間嗎?"},{"start":26707.888,"end":26708.229,"text":"橫幅擋定5%你覺得呢?"},{"start":26708.229,"end":26709.03,"text":"那職聘比率呢?"},{"start":26711.572,"end":26738.719,"text":"這個跟陳仁說明齁5%是這個底線我們當然希望可以拉得更高可是也要讓你再說營救報告5%就是等於沒有做那我讓陳仁你百分做九十只做五分就等於沒有做我也讓陳仁讓陳仁知道說因為這件事情關於執聘尤其是台印之間的這個執聘的問題新的機會能不能做到更好其實我們也在跟印方在做相關的溝通你有在做嗎有我統席部長然後何部長一直到今天"},{"start":26740.359,"end":26761.056,"text":"我們目前職聘的效能的精進方案在今年的6月間就已經做過了一個討論。 這一次印度是新的來源國,你不做就沒機會了。 對,所以我們希望能夠把握在新的來源國,盡量的能夠把職聘相比過去做得更好。 可是他們都會告訴我,我擔心你後來也跟我說他們的問題不是我們的問題,都說是別的國家的問題。"},{"start":26762.458,"end":26778.292,"text":"那你認為呢?你是所謂的台灣派的人那我問你是哪一邊的問題我沒有覺得只是誰的問題但我們覺得自己這一方有更精進的空間但我要跟陳委員說明確實在這裡面也有一些我們是需要好好跟印方溝通的地方"},{"start":26779.975,"end":26791.674,"text":"這幾個因素都存在但我們也就像跟陳委員講的一樣我們也希望能夠趁著這一次台映這是新的來源國把職聘給做得更好做得更有這個跟"},{"start":26793.49,"end":26822.21,"text":"這個在使用上面是好用的是能夠幫助到不只是我們的僱主也幫助到這個來源國的移工的相關的權益的我們希望能夠把這個把它做好這個目前都正在做你知道我222這個我裡面有包含多少期待嗎從這個對不對從這個移工對不對這個重建費台灣獨一獨一無二的從被美國放在那個最惡劣的名單裡面放了那麼多年3年以上然後一直到現在現在來源國之前都按兵不動"},{"start":26823.973,"end":26841.442,"text":"就是你知道這裡面有多少問題用簡化成這樣這當然是長期累積下來的問題但現在大家都很關注朝野各黨都很關注這件事情所以我們也希望能夠把握這次台印的這樣子的機會把一個更好的機制甚至參考其他國家的機制"},{"start":26842.262,"end":26844.023,"text":"直訓的部分給做稻薇。"},{"start":26861.232,"end":26873.607,"text":"對比起別人嘛別人都想盡辦法讓好的移工留下來嘛你也知道吧日本就還六個月就給人家那個居留權啊對不對大家以前都覺得日本就不得了了那我們現在還在那個清單上欸債務強迫勞動清單欸這很慘欸"},{"start":26879.588,"end":26885.614,"text":"那部長你如果有決心要做那你現在要我這個案子你建議我這個案子怎麼處理病案病案219、220、21、22整個都病案動200萬"},{"start":26897.028,"end":26910.853,"text":"但是你這個書面報告我的東西一點都不能少啊我們要的東西一點都不能少每個委員他的重點不一樣我這裡都是國恥欸國家之恥我們也不希望這個狀況繼續這樣下去所以我們真的希望改善如果要冰凍的話那個金額要增加"},{"start":26924.031,"end":26938.299,"text":"勞動力發展業務的部分他總共兩億的經費原來是兩億的經費其中有一億七是我們的人事的費用另外還有兩千萬是公益財券他已經降了兩百了所以這裡面可以調整的空間真的很小"},{"start":26947.926,"end":26958.975,"text":"兩億裡面有1700其實都是人事費所以剩下本身就只剩下3000萬百分之一百分之一是200萬兩億的百分之一百分之一"},{"start":26960.046,"end":26978.705,"text":"不是,就是2億裡面有1億7都是人事費所以扣掉1億7的話只剩下3000萬2000萬是公財公益財券的那個要照顧我們弱勢團體的那個費用所以我們真的能用的其實大概只有1000萬以內而已"},{"start":26981.333,"end":27006.156,"text":"可不可以冰凍200好不好 冰蛋凍200 謝謝就是維持我的200然後加書面 是同意冰蛋對然後同意冰蛋就好 200好不好然後我的書面那個上面要經我同意上面的每一個點部長你要看怎麼來做怎麼來刷雪球 這個事情是我非常重視的事情你的任務就是要把這些做好 可以嗎這樣可以嗎我們當然希望把它做好當然當然 我們盡力"},{"start":27009.258,"end":27032.845,"text":"二一九二二零二二一二二二就是病病案凍結兩百萬那陳委員的部分還要提那個書面書面報告二二三那二二三剛剛委員已經指導了就是有關職聘的那個比率比較低的問題是這個部分我們剛剛部長也特別跟委員報告所以這個部分是不是可以讓我們也是病案處理就是病到"},{"start":27034.599,"end":27044.811,"text":"二、二一、九、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、一、九、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二、二"},{"start":27045.883,"end":27066.446,"text":"二二三就併案凍結兩百萬二二四案二二四案林月琴委員已經同意併案凍結十萬元那刪除有關責定公告其日這些文字那已簽署主席因為林委員現在不在現場他是要求二二四二二五先保留"},{"start":27067.233,"end":27086.485,"text":"他有簽耶他已經有簽了他剛剛有說他下箱先保留然後再處理好不好好那224、225保留226226我們汪小林委員這個部分有簽署這個同意併案凍結勞動力發展有50萬元226併案凍結50萬對"},{"start":27095.683,"end":27097.425,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查勞動部主管．一、繼續審查勞動部"},{"start":27113.175,"end":27118.359,"text":"同意併案?他的科目沒有調整?他有同意?你們是不是再補一下?好不好?"},{"start":27118.359,"end":27118.379,"text":"是。"},{"start":27144.782,"end":27150.263,"text":"226同意併案227同意凍結勞動力發展業務10萬元227同意凍結勞動力發展業務10萬元228同意改組決議229同意改組決議已簽署"},{"start":27173.417,"end":27198.905,"text":"二二九改組決議二二三零二三零要委員保留因為他不在嗎是他有簽嗎沒有我們可以遵照辦理你們遵照辦理那先保留好了啦因為他剛剛有說他不在先好二二三零保留二三一如果你的提案同意改為組決議已簽署二三一改組決議二三二五委員同意改組決議已簽署"},{"start":27200.884,"end":27205.906,"text":"232改組決議233委員同意併219、220等案凍結勞動力發展業務50萬元以簽署同意併案凍結勞動力發展業務50萬23併219219是併200萬234"},{"start":27228.564,"end":27233.287,"text":"234我們署委員同意改組決議234案改組決議235235吳委員同意改組決議235改組決議236236盧委員同意改組決議236改組決議237是那237我們趙執委員這邊所關切的是我們在提供"},{"start":27248.116,"end":27276.739,"text":"這個相關的補助案給我們的企業的雇主的時候呢對於補助的雇主的資格的部分應該要特別關注有沒有違反勞動法令重大情節如果有這種情形的話應該排除在補助的資格條件之外以避免我們把資源挹注在這一種違反勞動法令重大的這些雇主身上那過去我們這個部分呢因為是由各個執行單位自行來認定而沒有定一個統一的一個標準"},{"start":27277.159,"end":27297.531,"text":"那所以我們在今年11月間我們特別把相關的包括分屬跟我們各個業務單位集合起來特別定出來未來有三種情況不在我們的補助對象的一個僱主範圍之內包括他過去違反勞動法規被處以罰款達到一定金額以上這個部分我們就不納入我們的補助的對象第二個他如果被主管機關"},{"start":27298.671,"end":27324.536,"text":"處以停工的處分這個我們也不會納入補助的範圍最後一個就是他如果在執行請勿這個讓員工執行請勿的過程當中有導致這個職災而導致有人死亡或者是離災人數三人以上也會被排除在我們的補助的對象範圍之內那這個部分的標準定出來之後接著會後續由我們各個服務措施的法規去跟著連動做調整未來這個部分就不會再發生那標準什麼時候定出來"},{"start":27327.882,"end":27334.597,"text":"我們是11月檢討出來在2月底之前會整個的完成那你這個完成前我可以看一下嗎"},{"start":27335.658,"end":27363.254,"text":"就我們再把我們當時所做的這個決議的一個會議記錄的內容再給委員因為你這樣講的很快我們會覺得這樣很棒但是事實上這個東西也不是死刑啦就是說有些案你不就因為他犯規嘛近年來有犯規勞動法法令犯規那犯規之後你應該有一個類似處罰期嘛就是他必須表現好才有機會再進來你剛剛跟我講說就全部排除掉我覺得你答應的這麼快我都反而覺得真的嗎真的嗎這樣子"},{"start":27364.275,"end":27378.362,"text":"我們會設定一個管制期去追蹤他如果要申請的前幾個月因為過去不聽話的人還是有糖吃嘛那你只罰一萬兩萬嘛很多你只罰幾萬塊錢欸可以罰到幾十萬你們都罰一兩萬塊錢欸對不對我記得8880萬的那個那個標案結果才罰了一百七十幾萬啊然後就是不怕啊他們不怕罰款啊"},{"start":27389.502,"end":27407.847,"text":"所以你寫得出來嗎那個寫得出來嗎我剛剛所講的我們做成的會議決議未來會接續在我們的這個相關的服務的規定上面會做設定我現在只能寄問你的書面報告部長你有聽懂齁那天我質詢的時候阿就沒聽話你還一直給他糖吃對不對不對嘛勞動部不能而且是你開罰的阿你開罰你還給他糖吃"},{"start":27417.386,"end":27441.138,"text":"那書面報告同意後把實得動之啦是那可不可以請委員同意我們的科目可不可以調整成勞動力發展業務然後可以動兩百萬病案動兩百萬但是我的報告照給這個可以啦我要看到這一份報告因為這個是我質詢特別注重的一個部分嘛那也是合理的嘛不聽話還講想是那"},{"start":27446.161,"end":27472.59,"text":"是不是動資之前這個報告請就是請先交出來可以嗎書面報告會交然後這個部分這個交報告一體適用勞動部一體適用各個地方目前我們勞動部的有關對雇主的補助的部分大部分都在我們發展數啦所以是有發展數這邊當主體 光部本部就做了這麼多八千八百多萬其實裡面就一大堆累犯四分之一的標案都給累犯"},{"start":27473.73,"end":27493.756,"text":"都給不斷違反那個勞動禁令的勞動法令的掌商可以嗎?寫得出來嗎?我們這邊的沒有問題我這邊我會來寫好那那這樣是237就是你把這個我的要求這個你們的因為這請證明你不用修法請證明你就可以處理了"},{"start":27495.066,"end":27495.566,"text":"國務及基金預算"},{"start":27526.447,"end":27528.469,"text":"二三七是怎樣?二三七就是病案"},{"start":27554.329,"end":27556.591,"text":"我再重複一次齁,因為這個病動兩百萬的我重複一次齁219、220、221、222、223、233、237病動勞動力發展業務兩百萬"},{"start":27582.489,"end":27587.531,"text":"那226是凍結綜合規劃50萬元因為226沒有同意並凍238案238案我們蘇金泉委員同意凍結10萬元以簽署238案同意凍結10萬元239案239案廖委員目前"},{"start":27609.717,"end":27637.282,"text":"二三九案保留委員不在二四零案秋委員這邊同意改組決議二四零案改組決議二四一案我們盧委員同意改組決議二四一案改組決議二四二案廖委員不在二四二案保留二四三案我們陳軍委員這個部分已經改組決議已簽署二四三案改組決議二四四案"},{"start":27637.83,"end":27659.68,"text":"二十四案秋委員這邊同意撤案以簽署。 二十四案同意撤案。二十四五案。 二十四五案同意並案凍結。 對不起二十四四跟二十四五跟二十四六因為林委員不在現場他要求要先保留。 好二十四五二十四六保留。 是。 二十四七案。 二十四七案我們遵照辦理。"},{"start":27660.748,"end":27690.12,"text":"二十七案好召喚辦理二四八案二十八案我們王委員說要保留送協商對這一案我想這個這是勞發署爆發這一些打假卡超時工作不當使用預算購買禮品裝潢的這些事情我想這個輿論嘩然那這個應該是要有一個徹底的檢討所以我這一案要保留送那個黨團協商二四八案保留協商二四九案"},{"start":27690.68,"end":27719.048,"text":"二十九案我們林委員不在保留二五零案要委員不在二五零案保留二五一案邱委員同意併案動一百萬元已簽署二五一案同意併案動一百萬二五二案二五二蘇委員不在嗎他有簽嗎沒有二五二案保留二五三案"},{"start":27720.205,"end":27738.389,"text":"二、五、三萬我們陳昭芝委員這邊所關切的是桃竹苗分屬的水電費這個部分是不是可以允許這樣是增編百分增加百分之多少二、五、三、剛剛我有一個二十幾的我們同意了這樣子增列了多少百分比"},{"start":27740.809,"end":27765.408,"text":"相較60原來一百六十萬你這次是一百七十四萬跟委員報告因為桃分署他的整個分署裡面還包括各個大樓的訓練場館所以他就類似一個大學的樣子所以他跟比如說北分署或者是勞動法院署來說他完全不一樣所以他會連他訓練場所需要用的水電全部都在裡面所以額度會比較高"},{"start":27766.755,"end":27793.31,"text":"那你表示你之前你一直說是沒有編組沒有編組這麼嚴重啊他他他一樣也是他一樣他一樣也是沒編組對他其他是20幾個percent我們後來都很快同意了多了百分之二十幾你你這個從60萬編到170萬三倍嗯好消費說明一下一倍數實在太大了逃分署那不在"},{"start":27801.647,"end":27806.951,"text":"桃分署是因為它的那個行政大樓還有漢街工廠的這個整修完畢正式使用因為漢街工廠它的耗電量就是本來就是比較大的"},{"start":27824.889,"end":27826.97,"text":"我大概知道一下狀況,不然拿10年前的那個跟成人說明齁"},{"start":27846.937,"end":27870.834,"text":"因為在這些訓練裡面其實這幾年焊接的訓練其實是特別多人參與的因為離岸風電的原因因為離岸風電的業務其實對於焊接業務的需求量特別大所以在各個訓練的項目裡面焊接的業務的成長或者是需求特別大所以這個部分可能"},{"start":27871.274,"end":27873.116,"text":"這個工作是放在桃竹苗分屬來說嗎?"},{"start":27873.116,"end":27888.995,"text":"是是是是桃竹苗分屬裡面在做焊接的這部分其實他們的過去怎麼熬過去但是因為現在離岸封店一直在做然後人一直缺乏所以這方面訓練其實等於是我不會不要講業務特別好啦"},{"start":27889.175,"end":27906.938,"text":"但就說需求的人特別多所以是有這個因素存在的那不用編這麼多好嗎編了三倍耶否定你現在跑出三倍這個跟成員說明這三倍這部分當然我們可以再請逃分署再來把這個裡面精算60變成100"},{"start":27908.32,"end":27931.822,"text":"其實這第一個這些都一定都是石邊啦第二個這裡面到底增加的實際上面怎麼算出三倍的我也可以請我們桃分署再送一份資料提供給你但我可以跟說這是石邊那剛才講到這個漢街的不因為他裡面有訓練場他不是只是辦公處所而已他這是裡面是有訓練場的這個訓練場裡面很多是用到會比辦公場所用到更多的電"},{"start":27933.632,"end":27955.044,"text":"所以當初就應該好好說明嘛對跟委員報告一下之前焊接這個職類齁其實非常常常都招不滿就是一個班他可能只有幾個人來上課但是現在的話招生情況因為離岸風電的關係所以說他的這個招生量有增加是不是那個陳委員是不是還是先保留然後請他們跟你說明"},{"start":27956.377,"end":27983.479,"text":"好,我們可以提供這一定是實編可是裡面到底怎麼評估的可以提供給陳委員這樣好不好,他分數好不好。 好不好,那253案先保留齁那請勞動部趕快提供給陳委員資料。 254案。 254案我們吳立法委員同意改組決議一千數。 254案改組決議255案。 255案邱委員同意併案然後凍結分數管理一百萬元一千數。 好。"},{"start":27985.3,"end":28010.64,"text":"二五五案同意併案二五一案分數管理一百萬二五六案二五六求委員這邊同意併二五一二五五併案凍結分數管理一百萬元一千數二五六案同意併二五一二五五併案凍結分數管理一百萬元二五七案廖委員不在"},{"start":28011.3,"end":28035.628,"text":"好257案保留258案258案書委員這邊那258案保留259案是那我們陳昭志委員一樣針對南分署的水電費的部分也這個有所關心那這邊我們是不是也提供細部的說明資料再跟委員做說明你這個部分是30%增加了30%以上"},{"start":28037.508,"end":28062.305,"text":"剛剛我們過關的大概都25,四分之一啦不過南分署它也是一樣它就像一個學校裡面有很多棟的這個訓練場所以它的整個用電器跟桃分署是接近的加南勒,雲加南分署這部分現在是這樣,它也是這個部分我OK但是剛剛那個三倍的部分還是讓我看一下比較安心那所以這個案子是不是同意組決議或者是測案"},{"start":28064.046,"end":28076.214,"text":"主決議我們就主決議謝謝好259案主決議260案260案我們賴委員這邊同意改為主決議已簽署260案改主決議261案261案邱委員這邊同意併251、255、256凍結分署管理100萬元已簽署"},{"start":28089.346,"end":28108.217,"text":"二六一案同意併二五一、二五五、二五六同意併案凍結分屬管理一百萬元二六二案書委員還沒簽二六二案保留二六三案其實就同一個案你這個增加到40%所以同樣說經費過去變得不足但是"},{"start":28111.459,"end":28115.482,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算"},{"start":28135.729,"end":28163.332,"text":"二六四案同意併案凍結一百萬元二六五案保留二六六案這個增加44%它是計減中心就是說每一個要增加的比率跟超過我們現在認知的你就要一個說明那是不是先保留然後請他們提供資料給你那二六六案保留二六七案二六七陳委員提案我們遵照辦理"},{"start":28163.892,"end":28164.934,"text":"267案遭案通過268案268案遭案通過269案"},{"start":28172.018,"end":28175.4,"text":"二六九案改組決議二七零案二七零案病動一百萬二七一案先保留"},{"start":28194.244,"end":28196.845,"text":"271案保留272案271案保留272案272案病棟200萬提書面報告273案"},{"start":28220.057,"end":28230.784,"text":"二期三案保留二期四案先保留提供資料二期四案保留請勞動部這邊儘速提供資料二期五案二期五案是陳昭主委特別關心的案子我早上跟委員報告過這是我們特別費經過溝通改組決議我們就遵照辦理"},{"start":28249.195,"end":28251.857,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度二天一次會"},{"start":28266.332,"end":28287.024,"text":"這個注帖、求募注帖跟唆募注帖當中不合格就是不合格怎麼都發明了一個名詞呢?報告委員這個不是我們發明名詞我們找了經濟部找了那個專業團體做開會把20到80%它既不是求募注帖也不是唆募注帖所以我們你就是準備讓那些不合規的防暴器材"},{"start":28287.825,"end":28306.667,"text":"所以我們絕對不會這個案子我們移送檢調來做調查的違規廠商檢調已經也做一些相關的約談我們同仁所有資料我們也會給檢調所做了解所以我們絕對不會你聽到檢調你就知道這是弊案嘛當然所以他這個本來不合格80以上求法率才叫合格"},{"start":28308.048,"end":28309.549,"text":"我們絕對不會包庇這件事情我們也沒有理由包庇"},{"start":28335.698,"end":28354.347,"text":"報告裡面不要再創造另外一個位階出來從虧口鑄鐵然後什麼鑄鐵到一個最最最好的一個球末鑄鐵當中你又創造一級出來中間那個物質是什麼樣的名稱我們要參考國外的國外的定義跟專業但是要合格合法的名稱"},{"start":28355.347,"end":28355.607,"text":"專案檢討報告並經同意後使得動之"},{"start":28385.831,"end":28401.948,"text":"就這樣我們要同意這個部分因為這是剪刀再查的事情可不可以讓我們用書面的方式但是我說就剛剛委員說我們到底接下來怎麼去管這個東西到底要分哪幾個成績那是後面還有另外的提案對"},{"start":28403.129,"end":28419.455,"text":"但我要說的是說我們這部分我們會找相關的專家學者來一起做這部分做討論我們都願意做到這件事情這不一定是我們自己怎麼決定如果外界社會對這事情不同的廠家對這事情有爭議我覺得就是爭議的問題爭議的問題專業處理我認為爭議的問題就是專業處理這是一個很專業的問題"},{"start":28431.52,"end":28439.786,"text":"好,那就是檢討報告出來,我不要看了滿意才解凍。 這個是凍?"},{"start":28439.786,"end":28441.788,"text":"遵照辦理。 20%遵照辦理。 好。 就書面。 是,就書面。 那個我問一下因為簽是簽10%,那你們現在是說20%?"},{"start":28456.575,"end":28463.498,"text":"10%就是那個10%委員已經簽名了對10%10%對謝謝委員好275萬動10%那題隨便報告謝謝委員276案276案是書記委員關心的這個議題那我們已經簽署是同意併動50萬276案同意併動50萬"},{"start":28488.695,"end":28490.435,"text":"二七七案二七七案二七八案"},{"start":28511.812,"end":28525.798,"text":"二、七、八案是翁曉琳委員提案那我們也同意就是病棟兩百萬科目改為職業安全衛生零七的健全機械設備及器具安全源的管理的業務費的一般事務費兩百萬"},{"start":28527.459,"end":28542.155,"text":"二七八案病棟兩百萬科目你們就照你剛剛講的是是謝謝趙偉那我們同學會再去跟律師委員做報告二七九案二七九案也是林衛吉委員的就保留好了二八零案對謝謝"},{"start":28544.197,"end":28544.737,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算"},{"start":28559.215,"end":28582.15,"text":"二八二案是廖偉祥委員的提案我們跟委員做報告委員同意並動30萬也已經簽名了二八二案並動30萬二八三案跟二八二案是內容一樣我們跟王育民委員報告王育民是希望說能夠不同意我們請求並動30萬那是不是請委員跟我們指教一下因為我們這才90萬的"},{"start":28587.814,"end":28599.92,"text":"那個部分還是要簡略大家可以看到我們從早上審到現在這個政府部門的媒體預算就是一直往上加那你可以看到責安署他其實去年的執行他編50萬只執行五成六結果今年還提出一個90萬的這個媒體預算"},{"start":28605.382,"end":28618.494,"text":"那這個完全是不合理的。 那這個完全是不合理的。 那這個完全是不合理的。 那個比例上升太快了。 那個比例上升太快了。 那個比例上升太快了。 那個比例上升太快了。 那個比例上升太快了。 那個比例上升太快了。 那個比例上升太快了。"},{"start":28628.249,"end":28636.817,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案"},{"start":28652.682,"end":28667.565,"text":"二百萬是王秘武委員的提案,謝謝王秘武委員,我已經跟委員報告過,同意併我們那個安全衛生的這個安全衛生的接費是併動一百萬以簽名二八五萬併動一百萬二八六萬"},{"start":28668.618,"end":28691.625,"text":"二八案是楊耀委員的經過報告同意並動我們的經費一百萬十萬塊以簽名二八六案並動十萬十萬二八七案劉委員是關心我們履歷這個平台的問題那跟委員報告過委員報告同意就是並動十萬塊但是還沒有簽名劉委員"},{"start":28698.004,"end":28719.056,"text":"你那個報告趕快給我我看可以就趕快給你簽名就暫時保留287案保留288案所以我們這個改善的制度方法趕快給謝謝那288案是陳委員的提案那已經同意那個病動50萬我願意簽名288案病動50萬289案"},{"start":28725.458,"end":28746.893,"text":"二八九案是林淑芬委員的也經過同意就是並動一百萬也已經簽名了二八九案並動一百萬二九零案二九一是王正希委員的提案那委員也同意就是並動十萬塊也已經簽名了二九零案並動十萬二九一案二九一案是我們盧憲毅委員的經過報告溝通同意並動五十萬已經簽名"},{"start":28753.376,"end":28759.902,"text":"二九一案併動五十萬二九二案二九二案曾經會委員的經過溝通也是同意併動連同285、286、287、288、289、290、291總共合在一起併動一百萬"},{"start":28773.649,"end":28780.036,"text":"二九二案病動一百萬先等一下好不好是不是你們提供一下因為這邊有點亂了"},{"start":28798.493,"end":28818.103,"text":"二九一是病動一百萬喔?二九一喔?二九一以上的是病動一百萬,沒有錯。二九一是病動一百?一百萬,對。二九一病動一百?嗯。連同上面的。剛剛說五十。二八六、二九零。"},{"start":28820.256,"end":28820.917,"text":"286、290、291、287、288、289、285並動100再一次286、290、291、287、288、289、285並動100萬"},{"start":28842.625,"end":28844.585,"text":"先等一下先讓他們核對一下"},{"start":28872.658,"end":28880.652,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28900.887,"end":28903.149,"text":"二八七保留嗎?"},{"start":28903.149,"end":28903.389,"text":"二八七保留阿?"},{"start":28903.389,"end":28906.331,"text":"對阿,二八七保留,現在在溝通。 職業安全衛生業務"},{"start":28926.909,"end":28933.281,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":28940.527,"end":28963.845,"text":"二八五、二八六、二八八、二八九、二八九、二八七、二八七再溝通二八五、二八九、二八七再溝通二八七再溝通二八七再溝通二八七再溝通二八七再溝通二八七再溝通二八七再溝通二八七再溝通二八七再溝通二八七再溝通"},{"start":28964.725,"end":28964.745,"text":"審訊室。"},{"start":28977.205,"end":28988.853,"text":"主席,剛剛那個287保留嘛齁,他們有來說明的啦,那我就同意之前病誰?病棟285就看你那些病棟啦齁,病來一個棟,病誰的棟?285謝謝,謝謝劉委員,感謝我這邊再來重複一次"},{"start":29008.686,"end":29034.514,"text":"二八五、二八六、二八七、二八九、二九零、二九一、病棟一百萬、科目四、二八五、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八、二八八"},{"start":29036.954,"end":29059.36,"text":"285、286、287、289、288、290、291並動100萬"},{"start":29060.871,"end":29075.569,"text":"二八八、二八九、二九零、二九一總共七案並動一百萬科目是二八五案的職業安全衛生業務健全職業安全衛生管理及制度"},{"start":29081.567,"end":29105.732,"text":"然後現在我現在是二、二九二是,二九二沈少俊金匯委員的提案已經同意改組決議也簽名了二九二案改組決議二九三案王委員的已經同意就併動一百萬已經簽名了二九三案併動一百萬二九四案"},{"start":29106.894,"end":29124.786,"text":"二九四還是央奧委員的提案已經同意併動十萬塊那所謂併動的案件是二九四、二九五、二九六、二九八對不對?沒有錯嗎?二九四、二九五、二九八"},{"start":29127.921,"end":29130.743,"text":"二九四、二九五、二九六、二九八"},{"start":29157.923,"end":29158.025,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":29160.906,"end":29188.237,"text":"這個書案應該有看我的內容嘛有有對啊到底這要怎麼處理跟委員報告罪落打擊我很承認我們今年治安署破功因為我們希望降30%到目前12月15日為止我們只降了10幾%沒有到達30%但是營造罪落的部分其實是我們國內最大的痛我們不管的工程規模越來越高越來越大還有我們現在新的工法包括我們太陽能板都趕快要做一些新的屋頂型要做所以我們第一個治安法準備要修"},{"start":29188.917,"end":29204.905,"text":"把生產管理跟工程業主責任都加進來第二次我們要跟國土組合作還有跟那個能源組合作就是未來特別的工程像比如說物理型太陽板要先做前端的規劃設計才能做施工"},{"start":29205.685,"end":29225.423,"text":"加上是我們自己的監督檢查跟宣導的展開要再更努力從此除此之外我們要跟那個營建業跟建設業做更進步合作因為他們是主力他們現場管理他們是重點所以幾個城市我們會依照我們的檢查的辦法來做展開那請委員多給我們指導謝謝"},{"start":29229.267,"end":29241.261,"text":"10月16日執行就已經提出示警了11月27日還再講一次你看我們雲林最近的是15號說實話公關意外一座位員掉進灰島"},{"start":29242.222,"end":29262.021,"text":"稍為會員買請就不至那之前是是掉在那麼空來的也不至然後又有掉在那個那個那個熱射場的一個再再處理的作業進去也也也有生命也不見然後還有那個什麼什麼"},{"start":29263.726,"end":29278.976,"text":"那個應該是升降機升降機其實他安全維護沒有做而且他的可以承載的重量可能是一到兩年結果做了4人結果4人下來全部生命都不見物體飛落了對短短喔短短不到半年時間"},{"start":29280.322,"end":29303.733,"text":"報告委員其實整個國家的職業安全衛生的重大災害死亡人數前年是320個人去年是死了300個人今年我們有機會往下降但是確實一條人命都不能被被折減所以剛才委員講的六七那案子我們第一時間中區、三中區就去檢查它其實是集成室的那個集成裡面都要做清灰作業"},{"start":29304.913,"end":29333.665,"text":"進去作業就忽略了要把做安全母所跟安全帶做比較固潔的處理那這樣子我們就要追究原設單位六金的責任還有車輛車輛的責任這個我們會追究所以整個防災的那個工作其實要一步一步地來這個我們很清楚有一些痛點我們要做一些痛點的打擊所以跟委員講特別是營造業的部分墜落的部分我們認為說要有治安法來做一些更做一些支撐那這樣子我們未來的防災就有一些武器來做展開"},{"start":29336.912,"end":29342.573,"text":"二九六案保留二九六案二九六案是陳議員的提案我同意併動50萬你簽名二九六案併動50萬二九七案"},{"start":29364.707,"end":29385.569,"text":"二將是邱正義委員的提案已經同意改組決議,也簽名二九七案改組決議,二九八案盧憲義委員的同意是併動五十萬,已簽名二九八案併動五十萬,二九九案陳委員的提案經過溝通同意改組決議,也已經簽名了二九九案改組決議三百案"},{"start":29386.448,"end":29390.471,"text":"三百四廖偉祥委員的提案就改組決議。簽名併動一百萬。"},{"start":29406.603,"end":29407.504,"text":"這個病100是跟誰病啊?"},{"start":29427.619,"end":29428.44,"text":"這個是293、294、298、293的木箱"},{"start":29439.647,"end":29443.771,"text":"我們現在這邊再附送一遍就是293、294、296、298並動100萬還有300、300案然後科目呢?科目就293科目"},{"start":29465.689,"end":29467.37,"text":"三零一案三零一案"},{"start":29498.433,"end":29526.918,"text":"好,這樣就照署長您講的但是講真的啦,不要一直跟我講六七很大啦現在也沒有很大了六七可能會面臨減碳跟排碳的壓力很大對,不要再講它很大了六七它其實不同的工程、不同的製程還有現在連電力的發展也在六七有另外一個Project出來我們都在追蹤啦我們希望說從員後管理讓這個六七的安全能夠持續維持零災害啦這個我們會再努力"},{"start":29528.118,"end":29534.32,"text":"三零一案並動十萬三零二案三零二案改組決議三零三案三零三案並動五十萬三零四案三零四案並動五十萬三零五案"},{"start":29558.394,"end":29577.924,"text":"三零一、三零三、三零四、三零一、三零一、三零四、三零四、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零四、三零四、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零四、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一、三零一"},{"start":29583.604,"end":29602.114,"text":"三零五是財務委員的提案。那凍結十萬以簽名。同意凍結十萬以簽名。對。三零五案凍結十萬。三零六。三零六陳委員的提案是同意併動五十萬。三零六併動。他動職業安全衛生業務五十萬。"},{"start":29603.673,"end":29607.536,"text":"他跟308自己的陳委員的案子並動50萬。 306跟308都是陳委員的。那就寫306、308並動50萬。 307陳委員的提案同意動50萬。 307案動50萬。 309案"},{"start":29629.039,"end":29654.704,"text":"三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動五十萬 三零九案併動"},{"start":29659.358,"end":29668.102,"text":"那要怎麼處理?要怎麼處理比較好?有簽的就先照這樣過啦。那明天第二輪的時候再處理啦。好不好?是,謝謝。"},{"start":29685.449,"end":29706.9,"text":"二九五本身是也是根據跟那個劉委員有關於這個營造墜落致死比例一直都無法改善嘛齁所以才這邊希望能夠凍結後來是病棟五十萬嘛所以到底是不是要跟勞運委員的作會雖然科目不是完全一樣"},{"start":29714.246,"end":29726.116,"text":"三零一啊。 三零一啊。 三零一你剛才先保留嘛。 沒有吧。 三零一病棟啊。 病棟十萬。 喔。 病棟十萬。 喔。 這樣就可以病棟沒問題啊。 三零九。"},{"start":29735.254,"end":29740.258,"text":"對阿你是病棟10萬阿對阿295保留阿295保留阿309就病棟50萬病301"},{"start":29758.107,"end":29763.628,"text":"我對不起309其實是比較跟295的劉委員的比較一樣他們都是跟罪弱有關的"},{"start":29779.352,"end":29789.297,"text":"所以,若是那部分還沒有保留的話,那到時候309還是跟著一起處理好不好?"},{"start":29789.297,"end":29792.499,"text":"所以現在是怎樣?"},{"start":29792.499,"end":29794.58,"text":"所以現在是309保留?"},{"start":29794.58,"end":29795,"text":"是,309保留。"},{"start":29799.662,"end":29804.488,"text":"三零九保留三一零三一零他不是有簽有沒有簽"},{"start":29815.253,"end":29816.354,"text":"三一三案是陳議委員的部分主決議已簽名"},{"start":29843.021,"end":29845.662,"text":"313案主決議改組決議314案改組決議315案315跟316是陳昭志委員的"},{"start":29859.048,"end":29878.481,"text":"已經簽名的同意動那個百分之十動百分之十對他是動我們職業安全衛生業務的同意客戶就是動百分之十書面報告兩個315、316都是動百分之十嗎是然後加書面報告好317"},{"start":29884.991,"end":29900.759,"text":"317是陳昌志委員的部分這題跟委員溝通之後我們希望能夠保留所以317保留它其實就是那個法院是防暴電器的經濟部的電業法還有跟經濟有關係所以我要再念一次嗎好那個剛剛310案它的科目改成職業安全衛生業務"},{"start":29918.763,"end":29927.888,"text":"三一八三一八召喚通過三一九三一九召喚通過三二零三二零的部分是盧委員的提案盧委員已經同意改為主決議並且已經簽名"},{"start":29944.073,"end":29948.598,"text":"三二一是書委員蘇清泉他剛有提到策案那已經簽名"},{"start":29950.206,"end":29969.214,"text":"簽名是怎樣簽名撤案撤案好好321撤案322324陳昭之委員他也同意撤案322同意撤案是323323是陳金輝委員的提案他有同意改為主決議也已經簽名323改主決議324324陳寅委員的提案委員已經"},{"start":29975.197,"end":29985.802,"text":"同意改為主決議並且簽名三二五是賴會員委員的提案已經同意改為主決議文字修正改為三個月內委員也已經簽名三二六是陳金輝委員的提案修改為動一萬元"},{"start":30001.653,"end":30028.147,"text":"動一萬然後三個月提書面報告那委員也已經簽名好326案動一萬好327327是召委的提案我們遵照辦理327召案通過328328也是王委員的提案是主決於我們遵照辦理好328召案通過329"},{"start":30032.404,"end":30053.836,"text":"那329召委的部分已經同意就是動100萬那已簽署好329凍結100萬對那330跟331這是水電的部分那因為委員不在是保留好330保留331保留332那蘇委員的提案那已經改組決議已經同意"},{"start":30054.036,"end":30061.44,"text":"好332改組決議333333也是蘇委員的蘇昭偉的已經同意改為組決議並已經簽署333改組決議334334是林業勤委員的那林業勤委員已經改為組決議那已經簽署334、335保留334、335保留336336是陳寅委員的那已經同意改列20萬科目自行調整那已簽署"},{"start":30083.064,"end":30093.506,"text":"簡略20萬科目自行調整336簡略20科目自行調整337陳委員的部分已經同意改為主決議已經簽署337改為主決議338換英委員的已經同意改為主決議已經簽署338改為主決議339陳委員的部分已經同意改動50萬那3個月提出報告已經簽署"},{"start":30111.075,"end":30134.514,"text":"好339改動50萬科目自行調整340340也是水電的部分是保留好340保留那341是劉建國委員的部分那劉建國委員是比較關切說對於霸凌的部分那研究所有沒有做相關的研究那這個部分我們跟委員辦公室溝通是我們有做過相類似的職場上勞工"},{"start":30136.676,"end":30159.096,"text":"指揮勞工列北的一些職場霸凌那委員辦公室是說可以同意改為主決議但必須要在三個月裡面去提相關的研究報告給委員辦公室三四一改組決議沒有誰同意你了我們說希望改為主決議不是同意你剛剛講的是說我辦公室同意你啊三個月改善的不好意思講太快"},{"start":30160.077,"end":30186.204,"text":"是跟辦公室溝通是希望搞一個主決於那三個月沒有人這樣講你怎麼可以這樣講喔是是是是那不是講太快喔喔好好對不起對不起欸欸欸你怎麼可以這樣誰同意你講講這樣說三個月的改善啊你沒有你為什麼可以這麼講沒有這太扯了吧我人在這邊我的助理都在這邊誰跟他承諾這種事情沒有的話你怎麼可以這麼講"},{"start":30187.649,"end":30211.86,"text":"這個怎麼叫講太快?你自己上面寫整個辦理工作生活平衡與友善職場研究然後勞資關係與勞動條件研究我就問你們研究什麼嘛?你們的霸凌定義是怎樣?你應該對我解釋這個事情你怎麼在講似是而非的話沒有人答應你怎麼在這種公開的場合講這種話"},{"start":30218.227,"end":30228.095,"text":"好啦 因為大家也累了啦 因為大家也累了啦 所以你讓他說明一下啦 再讓他說明一次 好不好"},{"start":30233.288,"end":30248.018,"text":"好那不好意思委員齁因為可能是真的是活路太快了齁那就是說我們是有相關的一些霸凌的一個研究啦齁那如果可以的話我們就是再把詳細的一些研究成果的部分再跟委員這邊來做報告"},{"start":30251.485,"end":30265.459,"text":"主席我就照委員有的提案三檢五十、凍結一百等他那個相關的報告提出來看那個報告之後如果可以的話再同意他那個凍結再給他解凍還是先保留不可以三檢不要部長三四一"},{"start":30275.151,"end":30288.82,"text":"好了,不然先保留啦,好不好?好啦,你要先保留我不意見啦,跟阿平我也是這樣處理,因為他不跟大英的事,他在這公開說,我覺得這不可以處理乾脆,聽不是我們聽不是你聽,要一天你一天去審啊。好啦,部長先說明"},{"start":30291.926,"end":30310.3,"text":"那個好先跟先跟留言說明其實關於霸凌的定義其實我們這次在這個北分數的調查報告裡面其實討論非常非常多那後來我們其實也找了包括我們外部委員跟專家學者後來怎麼樣在不管是國內的"},{"start":30311.781,"end":30329.51,"text":"一些判決或者是國際上面重要的文件包括有一些國際上面其他國家的案例公約學說其實我們做了一個調整那我確實是覺得我們的老安所安所是有需要把這些相關國際上面的資料其實做一個比較完整的收集"},{"start":30330.37,"end":30356.495,"text":"來讓我們的業務單位如果要來做下一個階段重要的判定的時候能夠用得上我覺得這個專業上面其實是需要的啦齁那只是希望這個可以請委員這邊來諒解一下說我覺得動動那個動動的部分我沒我沒有特別意見啦但是希望盡量能不能夠減少刪減或者不要刪減那我們我會來要求IN所這邊針對這方面的研究"},{"start":30357.319,"end":30369.486,"text":"應該要準備的更及時或者是更專業跟國際的這些相關的研究要落定但是這部分確實也不只是安眠所包括治安署這邊其實會需要這兩個所這兩個單位其實一起來合作這樣子"},{"start":30371.38,"end":30397.767,"text":"好,部長你就在講了啦齁,我接受部長的講法啦齁,其實很多我們要參照國際的相關的一些這樣的一個解釋啦還是實例啦齁,都可以。再講來源所應該早就有這些案了啦,不會我們現在發生這個事情,到現在還沒有。我剛剛是在講說,有跟我報室溝通是一件很好的事情,但是沒有去做任何承諾他就不應該講。我覺得這是很,而且我人在現場,兩個助理都在現場。"},{"start":30401.009,"end":30425.028,"text":"這個我覺得是很不好的。 你就要講動照動了。 有沒有跟他三五十萬就比照你剛剛那個案一樣三十萬。 就這樣了好不好。 好OK。 好謝謝委員齁。 那三四... 等一下等一下等一下。 減十萬。 三四一減列十萬。"},{"start":30428.115,"end":30452.086,"text":"三四二案?三四二陳清輝委員的部分已經改為主決議已經簽署三四二案改主決議三四三案?三四案也是陳清輝委員的部分已經文字修正改為主決議三四三案改主決議三四四案?那三四四是王育敏委員的部分是改動一百萬那提書跟報告那已經簽署"},{"start":30452.811,"end":30466.464,"text":"三四四案改動一百萬三四五那個盧憲毅委員的部分已經同意改為主決議並簽署三四五改主決議三四六三四六是幻影委員的部分已經同意改為主決議並簽署"},{"start":30467.974,"end":30484.363,"text":"三四六改組決議三四七三四七是代會委員的部分已經同意改為組決議並已經簽署好三四七案改組決議好那我們公務預算的部分第一輪第一輪先好OK好那我們現在來審那個"},{"start":30487.934,"end":30498.599,"text":"勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度預算書案總共有委員提案一案好先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見"},{"start":30509.264,"end":30525.48,"text":"委員這個這個案子那個我們有跟蘇清泉委員這個報告過那他同意我們這個改列為這個主決議並且已經簽名好那這個這個案就改為主決議"},{"start":30527.304,"end":30545.414,"text":"好那先做以下決議勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度預算書案已經審查完略提報提好那先等一下"},{"start":30559.216,"end":30559.416,"text":"主席"},{"start":30575.269,"end":30588.714,"text":"議事就可以加沒問題不然你自己就加了不然為什麼這時候不加兩位部長都說聽一下剛才你不要講什麼所以後來就想"},{"start":30615.81,"end":30623.737,"text":"劉委員你太重要了好就這裡"},{"start":30627.111,"end":30653.622,"text":"先做以下決議勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度預算書案已經審查完略提報院會討論院會討論前是否須提交黨團協商那院會討論那大家是不是有意見"},{"start":30656.178,"end":30658.2,"text":"主決議嗎?二輪後再弄吧你說這個主決議先嗎?財團法人的那個"},{"start":30687.184,"end":30689.965,"text":"現在請宣讀財團法人主決議文字修正部分。"},{"start":30704.079,"end":30724.939,"text":"第一案,原請該中心因加強人事費之執行,完整聘雇高階主管人員,並積極辦理職災勞工一站式服務,重建之家之事辦,宣讀完畢。好,那現在沒有意見了吧?"},{"start":30735.959,"end":30737.32,"text":"提報院會討論,那院會討論前是否需交黨團協商?"},{"start":30757.875,"end":30758.555,"text":"關於勞動部主管公務預算"},{"start":30787.992,"end":30812.181,"text":"上位審查完略,明天早上...還有嗎?你保留的部分要再讓一次。我保留其他的會很快。對對對,剛剛不是有講。他們很多是剛起先剛開始他們是保留協商。對。"},{"start":30814.162,"end":30834.075,"text":"對啊 那個時候我還提醒你們今天早上很多保留協商你們應該要再去溝通一下我跟你講你們保留協商如果被三一大堆齁你們基金你們就死定了我跟你講真的我們是保留我們在下一輪討論對不對大家都要討論空間你們去同意保留協商去那邊被三一大堆然後在這邊跟我在支柱比較"},{"start":30837.076,"end":30843.077,"text":"我們當然會希望能夠爭取多溝通的機會一輪兩輪三輪我們都希望溝通所以只要能夠有溝通機會的我會請我們的同仁都盡力的再去溝通"},{"start":30859.386,"end":30886.404,"text":"就算剛剛有幾位委員他是直接講說他就是要保留協商但我還是會想請我的同仁還是要去跟委員敲門好能溝通的盡量溝通除非他真的除非人真的是拒絕我們任何溝通的可能性但是只要能夠溝通我們都在溝通這個這個部分我想我們的我的態度就是這樣子好不好對好那呃劉委員保留的部分我們先從頭開始哈好謝謝"},{"start":30898.538,"end":30912.727,"text":"就只有我保留也有?不會吧?是因為你本來保留我明天第二輪啦那因為你是說還是你要等到明天第二輪?不用吧?你還有明天第二輪?對啊"},{"start":30919.062,"end":30926.005,"text":"好啦,那你就全部把它簽組決議或者是併動,這樣就不用再討論啦。 不行不行。"},{"start":30935.868,"end":30951.115,"text":"主席我136我先講一下136我就同意併案好不好然後一個月內提交送我們委員會來做書面報告之後使得動之好不好竟同意後使得動之喔136誰的?竟同意後使得動之喔136併 併 併 併 併 併誰啊?對啦 併 併 併誰?"},{"start":30967.475,"end":30967.495,"text":"133、134、135好136並動10萬"},{"start":30986.923,"end":31012.055,"text":"好,168案,主席168案,對啊,剛剛是有跟我解釋不過我一直期待是這樣啦齁我是用,我這邊寫得很清楚啦就是我們面對一百一千零四八萬的這個投保的這個被保險人齁那全國只有24處的辦事處我覺得是一直不夠啦"},{"start":31015.598,"end":31033.338,"text":"這個我可以不去給你動啦齁但是你是不是看到什麼一個改善的方案你健保署也比你們多應該一倍以上健保署然後健保署又可以跟那個公所"},{"start":31035.011,"end":31045.991,"text":"來做相關的一些連結那勞保局應該是要與時俱進吧能不能擴充還是跟地方的這個公所區公所還是鄉鎮市公所"},{"start":31048.171,"end":31049.832,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管"},{"start":31073.873,"end":31101.898,"text":"這個規模是覺得,也不是只有雲林縣遇到啊,全國接染嘛。你到現在只有24處,這個已經多久了。那為什麼健保署他可以...剛剛我那邊有個資料。健保署有...當然那個收入的規模不一樣啦齁。其實這個5千多的,現在9千多嘛。過去健保的時候也是5千多的啦。但是他的那個辦事處還有相關的一些服務的地方,就比你..."},{"start":31103.502,"end":31105.003,"text":"勞動部主管應該是兩倍還是三倍?"},{"start":31105.003,"end":31105.384,"text":"應該是兩倍還是三倍?"},{"start":31105.384,"end":31106.004,"text":"應該是兩倍還是三倍?"},{"start":31106.004,"end":31126.98,"text":"應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍 應該是兩倍還是三倍"},{"start":31131.299,"end":31145.116,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們各地民眾的一個需求那我們現在有24個辦事處那在中立還有嘉義我們有設服務站那剛剛有提到跟地方政府勞工局部分我們可能因為人力有限經費有限所以我們是沒有每一天那有"},{"start":31146.137,"end":31163.226,"text":"單獨的個別時間到那邊去派注點那整個委員關心說全國各縣市我們到底怎麼樣可以再跟地方政府來做合作那在有限的資源下面可以做一個同盤演繹如果委員這邊剛才提到說經費讓我們可以繼續執行那我們最整體的一個執行情形我們來做一個總檢討報告然後跟委員這邊來做一個書面說明"},{"start":31167.429,"end":31181.867,"text":"您看我的報告,我的這個理由裡面就已經有提到嘛,裡面是102年的時候就已經有跟新北市政府來徵社這個服務的櫃台嘛。102年,現在已經113了。怎麼抽到就新北,因為新北人比較多。"},{"start":31184.208,"end":31209.276,"text":"跟委員這邊做報告因為新北當初設的時候他其實沒有特別收我們場地費所以整個涉及到後續的人力跟經費所以剛才提到說像我們在台中市的勞工局其實他們有提供一個櫃台到兩個櫃台讓我們在特定的日期可以到那邊去住點那後續我們會跟各個地方政府我們聯繫看看有沒有這樣的可能性以及這個涉及到因為勞保局其實員惡也相對有限那我知道委員很關心民眾可以就近臨櫃辦理"},{"start":31210.376,"end":31233.957,"text":"所以我們除了在臨櫃部分我們相關民眾現在申請案件因為手機也方便線上也方便所以相關在查詢申辦功能部分我們會持續來做強化那怎麼樣可以兼顧各個不同的勞工階層除了職本上面的一個臨櫃辦理線上也可以同時併進那讓民眾有一個比較方便的一個恰功的一個需求這部分我們極力再來做一些相關後續的研議經濟"},{"start":31238.959,"end":31261.06,"text":"我們文字是不是可能我們再做一些修正提供給委員這邊我們主決意的後續事項我們做一些調整好嗎我們也要你一時一刻好不好那你自己也講到台中了嘛對不對所以不用付費的地方應該就可以優先嘛那剩下就是人力的問題嘛覺得人力勞動部是不是有大問題啦部長應該會支持嘛"},{"start":31264.181,"end":31276.952,"text":"因為我們的確是原額受管控。 那至於委員這部分我們的文字再做修正。 然後就剛才所提的一個面向我們文字修正後給委員這邊再跟我們做一些指正。 OK啊。 OK好。 OK是怎樣?"},{"start":31276.952,"end":31277.933,"text":"就是改組決議。 改組決議。 改組決議。 168案改組決議。 然後18再來是180。 180。"},{"start":31291.521,"end":31298.123,"text":"1800原本是動100嘛,可是他這邊建立改動為,就是同意併案凍結啦好不好。 好,謝謝委員。 180案併案凍結,動100。 是嗎?"},{"start":31298.123,"end":31300.244,"text":"180案。 併案凍結50,保險業務。 180案併案凍結50。 保險業務,對。 提書面報告。 好。"},{"start":31319.268,"end":31338.579,"text":"我剛剛有講過了我就不再追溯了謝謝委員189對你到雖然是50萬而已不是同意併案凍結嘛對不對對阿你們到時候報告你不要不要那個報告就是你自己也沒有辦法接受報告好謝謝189189也併案嗎189189就改組決議189改組決議"},{"start":31350.851,"end":31371.423,"text":"二零九我沒有二零九有跟委員報告二零九您所關心的是那個勞動力發展署跟員工的這個猜情還有員工協助方案要檢討還有經濟相關申訴機制作為等等所以有提要刪減一般行政一百萬並且凍結五百萬有這個案子"},{"start":31375.812,"end":31383.554,"text":"這個人家給你動300你要怎麼處理是可不可以請委員同意這個案子可不可以併210案王玉敏委員的案子一起併動300萬好了就併動了謝謝OK好謝謝205就併案凍結300好209案併動300萬"},{"start":31400.283,"end":31405.047,"text":"處理率多少?295?對,剛剛301我就讓你直接這樣處理,冰暗的啦,你這個我還是覺得"},{"start":31413.635,"end":31430.421,"text":"委員我們的營造業的部分不是啦不是啦不是啦剛剛你那個有一個成員給我解釋營造業理由是寫這樣啦但是剛剛我就用雲林的案例講給你聽那個已經看你看多種類比的行業都出了這種墜落事件是"},{"start":31432.342,"end":31449.039,"text":"寫單文是寫營造就已經占一半以上嘛其實你看我剛剛念的一個是六清它也不叫營造業啊對不對然後上一次那個是在那個是在那個是在垃圾的掩埋場再上一次是在那個玉瓣土泥土廠"},{"start":31450.06,"end":31468.902,"text":"然後再上一次的那個應該在什麼樣的那個應該才是營造有的是營造一個墜落有的是捲腳有的是滾落有的是倒崩塌災害類型我們都會做災害的分析跟找對阿你們的人到我辦公室來講的時候我們提醒說你這個事情不要再發生了結果一講完之後不到兩天就發生了"},{"start":31470.864,"end":31492.34,"text":"議員6、7的時候第一時間我們周區治安中心的主任就帶同仁去現場做檢查這是我們職災害部門我們都會嚴格的處理現在關鍵重點是怎麼讓我們的層層的業主或是主管能夠更關心我們安全衛生包括我們行為人的一些落實所以我們這些治安法我們希望說能夠得到送進來之後有關"},{"start":31494.241,"end":31495.822,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算"},{"start":31516.75,"end":31532.2,"text":"那有關營造會的部分我是說是不是可以請委員我們再寫一個比較明確的那個減災的那個策略的報告讓你能夠來知悉我們的目前的做法跟策略因為這個應該也是中長期的戰場我們要去逐年來降低了"},{"start":31537.904,"end":31548.487,"text":"就看跟誰並動了好不好是是那你還是提出那個書面報告之後我這邊一定要看你的報告文之後我才會通知的好不好那我是請委員對不起我們這個劉委員這個案子並293、294、296以及剛才我們王正宇委員的309並動100萬那我們提書面報告來跟委員做說明好謝謝委員謝謝王委員謝謝"},{"start":31564.332,"end":31568.499,"text":"就是那個295的案子是病293、294、296跟309病棟100萬"},{"start":31574.966,"end":31590.922,"text":"就是完整會的事,309沒有錯嗎?對,剛才王委員有說保留,對,309那個劉委員的就先這樣子啦,他明天處理完之後要明天再因為王委員在這邊,他309他也同意,是,是,是對,謝謝,謝謝王委員,謝謝劉委員"},{"start":31606.53,"end":31629.205,"text":"那還有嗎?有委員?還有嗎?沒有了?有委員沒了?要再唸一次嗎?署長你剛剛那個病的部分你再唸一次好不好?"},{"start":31635.839,"end":31651.399,"text":"二九四、二九五、二九六、三零九並動一百萬二九八跟三百"},{"start":31658.889,"end":31669.441,"text":"二九三、二九四、二九五、二九六、二九八、三百、三零九。病棟一百萬。不好意思,稍微,謝謝你,謝謝各位。"},{"start":31688.365,"end":31698.332,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算關於勞動部主管公務預算尚未審查完略明天星期四早上9點繼續審查現在休息"},{"start":31716.568,"end":31717.049,"text":"我想出46分"},{"start":31745.094,"end":31753.592,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":31780.74,"end":31792.591,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案。"},{"start":31802.051,"end":31809.253,"text":"劉俊國委員當136他病患凍結,他剛剛顧著劉俊國委員,我們還欠勞給劉俊國委員,因為他有同意主決議的那個我們,但今天18年以後你沒有理由,反正這已經結束了。"},{"start":31827.132,"end":31828.453,"text":"請勞動部主管提供報告。"}]}},{"id":"158228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b951eeed9cc2fe3f576a13dc63c2c12cd00e6b6e341bf309597225bc5af1f30a7e067b1efe2647ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"17:43:42 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然增生是不是那完全官員不在沒有辦法尋答一句話講嘛"},{"start":76.994,"end":87.246,"text":"你自己預算都沒藥沒緊的時候很抱歉啦那你要立法院我們要幫人民看準荷包要專業審查嚴格把關那就建議內政委員會嚴格把關啊"},{"start":91.311,"end":112.268,"text":"沒有詢答沒有審查預算就乾脆全部都擱置吧因為既然連秘書長都不要緊15億的預算召委已經宣布今天開會到12點了而且今天早上我們就已經8點的時候就已經來登記發言了如果不是民進黨委員站在主席台霸佔主席台的話"},{"start":114.161,"end":115.843,"text":"在這兩天有一個大新聞啊行政院裡面有處長"},{"start":133.303,"end":151.48,"text":"跟下屬有霸凌的事件有婚外情的事件秘書長到底調查狀況為何能不能跟國人清楚明白交代還利用官邸來約會或者說有其他的一個狀況真相在哪裡早上說秘書長進來的時候媒體詢問秘書長不發異言不發異語啊說實在話他"},{"start":157.957,"end":183.202,"text":"員工怎麼樣做私人行為歸私人行為但是如果說有用到公部門有用到官邸有用到公家機關的話該不該向國人說明跟報告清楚當然應該啊再者這兩天又傳出有霸凌女王是行政院人事總處我們講日據有叫派遣女王啊台灣更厲害叫霸凌女王啊"},{"start":184.076,"end":191.08,"text":"莫名其妙我們可不可以不要有這樣子的一個害群之馬在公佈門體系裡面那這樣子的一個人現在調查狀況為何沒有說明"},{"start":198.976,"end":225.581,"text":"甚至我知道說好像連委員要相關所知的部分調查報告還沒有辦法提供今天本席辦公室已經正式發函要求去識別化給本席清楚的調查報告我們看行政院什麼時候會提供最後這兩天真的很遺憾大法官的被提名人說不敢面對當初死刑的這個受害者的家屬"},{"start":226.775,"end":249.266,"text":"就是一些被害者的家屬要座談會大法官被提名不敢面對現在行政院的秘書長也不敢面對內政委員會的質詢我們要問當上意大於民意當上面的意思來大於代表人民的立法院的時候到底現在官員是不是都在聽黨意而不是民意"},{"start":250.006,"end":267.16,"text":"所以我們真的強烈譴責今天立法院內政委員會還在開會的時候所有官員就已經先落跑這樣子一個落跑行為就是逃避監督就是逃避人民的立法院就是沒有辦法對自己的施政負責我們予以最強烈譴責好 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早上是寫得比較犀利﹖結果我們想說技術調就有在尊重委員﹖結果我們昨天改作比較柔和﹖"},{"start":47.657,"end":48.237,"text":"稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍"},{"start":72.605,"end":74.326,"text":"丁學忠．丁學忠．丁學忠"},{"start":102.915,"end":127.628,"text":"邀請答案。此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":131.59,"end":134.031,"text":"今天可以完成這個各自委員會的組織法草案．否請邀約看到這個組織法的草案．希望可以請我們紀事長來說明．我現在不知道在說什麼．有誰幫我印．"},{"start":150.84,"end":158.764,"text":"現在在台電接訊以後我會再上一份書院接訊的資料希望記事長可以針對我這個問題來給我回應 以上感謝 謝謝好 謝謝丁學忠委員的發言 下一個我們請黃建斌委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"158223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b951eeed9cc2fe3f1f4a7a271d9e0e32d00e6b6e341bf309597225bc5af1f30ab268d5fed35f2e155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"17:22:38 - 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看一下議程好不好"},{"start":5519.555,"end":5519.575,"text":"民進黨"},{"start":5530.802,"end":5549.499,"text":"我們絕對不能負責任這一種會議．以擔憂那一種黑牌無效的會議．人民的人不要用這樣子反民主的方式．在立法院進行這種違法會議．我們絕對反對這種議事入門違法協議"},{"start":5552.081,"end":5555.083,"text":"違反民主方式開會的議事錄違反立法院"},{"start":5567.847,"end":5588.489,"text":"有沒有立法院院長,如果還有立法院院長的話,就讓立法院長學傷這一個不容易的紀錄。民進黨不要用暴力黨民主的方式來確認這一個議事錄。呃...呃...有啦,有,但聲不夠大聲,我要跟你講。"},{"start":5600.377,"end":5621.314,"text":"議長,你們知道你們現在做的事情是違反民主原則違反民主方式你們到底知不知道你們在做什麼?立法院有沒有院長?立法院院長是不是應該來協商禮拜一這一個粗糙的反民主的會議在政委員會"},{"start":5622.676,"end":5633.176,"text":"可以不讓其他黨的委員進入會議室。會議結論太離譜了!任長要不要出面協商?"},{"start":5663.019,"end":5688.253,"text":"在1個違法的會議讓其他黨的立委進入會議室依然可以做成結論這種預設路怎麼可能可以確認?立法院難道沒有院長嗎?立法院的院長只有過水學商嗎?這種那麼粗糙違反民主的方式在會議還可以確認嗎?"},{"start":5691.601,"end":5708.829,"text":"我估計今天訪問是民主的立法院的嗎?對無效的會議,要辦法確認議事錄。要辦法確認的議事錄,是要默想人民罷免的權利。"},{"start":7738.175,"end":7738.196,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":10385.824,"end":10385.844,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":10862.107,"end":10862.128,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":14731.647,"end":14732.637,"text":"議員．"},{"start":15715.294,"end":15716.456,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19075.896,"end":19077.239,"text":"在介紹禮拜一的時候﹖"},{"start":21340.45,"end":21341.395,"text":"主席"},{"start":27976.653,"end":27985.45,"text":"好現在開始繼續開會那我們請進行報告事項請宣讀第15次第16次會議議事錄"},{"start":27990.834,"end":28010.403,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議．事錄．時間113年12月9日星期一上午9時3分至下午5時47分．地點紅龍202會議室．出席委員麥玉禎委員等14人．夜席委員王玉川委員等10人．夜席官員內政部部長劉世芳及相關人員．"},{"start":28011.283,"end":28037.998,"text":"主席張昭久委員紅路報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項一繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部部分二繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國土管理署及所屬警政署及所屬中央警察大學消防署及所屬國家公園署及所屬移民署建築研究所空中勤務總隊部分"},{"start":28040.58,"end":28064.356,"text":"繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算關於附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管租業基金繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於非營業部分關於內政部主管特別收入基金繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管信託基金是不是先暫停我們直接先確認第16次會議議事錄優先確認"},{"start":28068.816,"end":28088.822,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議．事由．時間113年12月16日星期一上午九十四九十三分 地點紅龍202會議室 初期委員徐欣盈委員等7人 列席委員張家俊委員等22人 請教委員麥玉貞委員等1人 主席徐昭傑委員欣盈 報告事項 宣讀上次會議．事由．決定暫不確定 討論事項 繼續審查公職委員選票"},{"start":28094.103,"end":28122.53,"text":"選舉罷免法修正草案紀律案決議第二三條四十三條五十二條五十三條六十七條六十九條七十五條及第九十條均予以保留二審查完畢分別擬據審查報告提報院會討論聚焦黨團協商並推請徐教育委員信應與院會討論時作補充說明復議案一案針對第11屆第二會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議討論事項所作之各項決議提出復議請立即處理是否有當進行公決提案人黃建斌"},{"start":28123.571,"end":28127.827,"text":"徐宇珍﹑張志倫﹑牛旭婷﹑高欣素梅﹑丁雪中決議不通過"},{"start":28129.656,"end":28155.652,"text":"宣讀完畢好請問對於第16次會議議事錄有無錯誤好無錯誤議事錄確定好那我們接著繼續再宣讀第15次繼續念第15次會議議事錄一審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部中央警察大學國家公安署及所屬建築研究所公共勤務總隊部分稅入部分第二款第4款第7款均"},{"start":28156.653,"end":28175.61,"text":"除無列書外其餘均照列第三款規費收入第53項內政部原列5909萬7千元增列第二目使用規費收入500萬元其餘均照列改列為列預算409萬7千元第56項中央警察大學第58項國家公務員署及所屬第60項建築研究所均照列"},{"start":28176.812,"end":28181.317,"text":"稅除部分第7款內政部主管第一項內政部原列134億24378000元檢列媒體政策及業務宣導費400萬元第二幕"},{"start":28188.274,"end":28206.166,"text":"民政及宗教理智業務轉型正義權力回復強補助費1億元第三目護證業務辦理護籍資料運用管理業務費一般事務費支付新式身分證印製設備暫停執行之必要費用1500萬元工具檢列1億1900萬元其餘均照列改列為133億537萬8千元"},{"start":28212.55,"end":28223.914,"text":"本項體驗16萬保留送院會處理本項通過決議68項請參閱第4項中央警察大學13億4926萬6千元照列本項通過決議15項請參閱第6項國家公園暑期所屬35億312萬元照列本項通過決議26項請參閱"},{"start":28234.597,"end":28238.764,"text":"第8項建築研究所3億315萬3千元照列本項通過決議8項請參閱第9項空中勤務總隊21億7169萬5千元照列本項通過決議14項請參閱"},{"start":28250.814,"end":28263.427,"text":"2審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金實施平均地權基金業務總收入業務總支出本期剩餘比較公募金額轉投資計劃固定資產之建設改良擴充"},{"start":28266.71,"end":28284.098,"text":"公庫增撥基金額補辦預算除無列書外其餘均照列三審查114年度中央政府總預算案部署單位預算費營業部分關於內政部主管特別收入基金一研發及產業迅速替代以基金基金來源基金用途"},{"start":28284.898,"end":28300.273,"text":"本期短促解繳公庫補辦預算除無列數外其餘均照列二警察消防海巡移民空行人員及攜行民力安全基金基金來源基金用途本期短促解繳公庫補辦預算除無列數外其餘均照列"},{"start":28302.454,"end":28328.541,"text":"4.審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管信託基金1.黃瑞景先生獎學基金總收入總支出本期短促均照列2.胡圓周女士獎數學基金總收入總支出本期短促均照列3.在校學生獎學基金總收入總支出本期剩餘均照列4.成員獎學基金"},{"start":28329.381,"end":28344.585,"text":"總收入總支出本期轉述均照列5.留書生先生警察子女獎學基金總收入總支出本期剩餘均照列5.檢查內政部含送財團法人228事件今年基金會等8家財團法人114年度預算書"},{"start":28348.069,"end":28377.769,"text":"一財團法人228事件今年基金會收入支出本期剩餘短促均照列二財團法人威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復基金會收入支出本期剩餘均照列三財團法人臺灣建築重新收入支出本期剩餘均照列四財團法人臺灣營建研究院支出收入本期剩餘均照列五財團法人中央營建技術顧問研究社"},{"start":28378.731,"end":28382.082,"text":"週日之初本期剩餘均照列六層談法人臺灣省"},{"start":28384.028,"end":28411.96,"text":"一永人員安全基礎基金會收入支出本期暖促均照列七財團法人警察學術研究基金會收入支出本期剩餘均照列八財團法人一永消防人員安全基礎基金會收入支出本期剩餘均照列第六審查國家住宅及都市更新中心一百億四年度預算數案收入支出含所得稅費用本期剩餘固定資產建設改良及擴充均照列"},{"start":28412.94,"end":28440.458,"text":"通過決議期向請參閱。第7114年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部中央警察大學國家公務員組織所屬建築研究所公眾勤務總隊審查完均你據審查報告含送財政委員會提報院會。第8114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算費營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金實施平均地權基金審查完均你據審查報告含送財政委員會提報院會。"},{"start":28442.741,"end":28457.881,"text":"第9114年度中央政府總預算．附屬特惠預算．備營業部分關於內政部主管特別收入基金．研發及產業訓除替代役基金警察消防海巡移民空行人員及協情民力安全基金"},{"start":28458.942,"end":28477.993,"text":"審查完略你去審查報告含送財政委員會提報委員會11114年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算費營業部分關於內政部主管信託基金黃瑞景先生獎學基金胡彥周女士獎助學基金在校學生獎學基金"},{"start":28478.573,"end":28499.046,"text":"全員獎學基金由入生先生警察子女獎學基金收入部分審查完畢以據審查報告含送財政委員會提報院會11.內政部含送財團法人228事件紀念基金會財團法人威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利恢復基金會財團法人臺灣建築中心"},{"start":28500.687,"end":28520.953,"text":"財團法人臺灣營建研究院財團法人中央營建技術顧問研究社財團法人臺灣省義勇人員消防安全人員技術基金會財團法人警察學術研究基金會財團法人義勇消防人員安全技術基金會114年度預算書案審查完略"},{"start":28521.713,"end":28542.142,"text":"以據審查報告提報議員會公決﹖不需交由黨員協商﹖並推請章焦及委員紅綠與議員會討論時做補充說明。內政部含送國家住宅及都市更新中心114年度預算10萬審查完畢以據審查報告提報議員會公決﹖不需交由黨員協商﹖並推請章焦及委員紅綠與議員會討論時做補充說明。"},{"start":28549.511,"end":28552.272,"text":"請問各位同仁對於第15次的會議議事錄有無錯誤?無錯誤,議事錄確定。"},{"start":28567.256,"end":28593.082,"text":"謝謝主席第一個我們要確定我們門是開著的他們沒有來那不是我們的問題這第一個第二個這個今天本來按照議事錄確認完畢之後接下來要處理的事項是行政院這個預算的相關答詢但不知道為什麼官員都已經先行離席在會議還沒有結束前官員先行離席是已經很奇怪的事情因此本期建請會議主席立刻通知行政院相關官員立刻回來備詢我們今天把質詢程序全部走完方得散會以上簡易謝謝"},{"start":28596.375,"end":28615.616,"text":"本席在剛剛宣讀的時候發現行政官員已經離席本席要針對這個未經主席同意未經同意我們的行政官員可以擅自離席這個也是我們看得出現在的行政團隊對立法院的藐視"},{"start":28618.154,"end":28624.858,"text":"憲政部門對的是整個國會對我們立法院應該有基本的尊重所以本期"},{"start":28634.264,"end":28663.003,"text":"已經請我們議事人員我們通知行政部門我們今天行政院的相關單位立刻回到立法院我們只要沒有霸佔主席台沒有杯葛議事我們都希望我們的會議能夠和平的進行我們能夠這個按照我們既定的議程能夠持續的來走所以因為要等待我們的行政官員所以我們現在先休息謝謝"},{"start":28664.104,"end":28664.548,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":29620.134,"end":29620.154,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":29669.742,"end":29669.923,"text":"誰請你們離開的?"},{"start":29721.055,"end":29732.387,"text":"你們要清楚知道你們是中華民國的官員不是民進黨的官員不是民進黨任何一個人讓你們離開你們就能離開你們領的是人民的納稅錢不可以這個樣子哦"},{"start":29744.673,"end":29758.526,"text":"早上霸領主席臺霸佔主席臺現在終於你們不在了我們要開會了你們可以這樣子啊用演戲演一演就跑掉了趕快回來開會吧朝委員已經說今天開到12點啊"},{"start":29833.083,"end":29835.61,"text":"所以這件事情 行政院你們必須要來說明"},{"start":29903.473,"end":29919.07,"text":"喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?喂?"},{"start":29924.178,"end":29944.908,"text":"今天邀請行政院來我們要審查行政院的預算那早上您也知道嘛這個民進黨這個干擾議事大戰主席台那本席也在中午的時候有宣告一點多的時候有宣告延長會議你現在你剛剛已經到了為什麼離開"},{"start":29950.182,"end":29974.842,"text":"您是不是可以馬上回來?我們現在會議要持續進行。我再看一下,因為我已經那個...誰請你離開的?不是不是,你已經什麼?你已經什麼?對,我已經回到辦公室了。不是不是,你剛剛不是已經回到了嗎?我現在要開始會議。你是得到錯誤的資訊是不是?誰跟您說可以離開的?"},{"start":29981.601,"end":30006.895,"text":"您是不是馬上要回來?所以現在行政院不用對立法院負責了?那您大概多久回到?我還需要等您多久?不是,你還要check一下"},{"start":30009.472,"end":30024.943,"text":"秘書長秘書長秘書長現在現在很多委員在這裡都非常的憤怒啊您這樣子真的行政院太傲慢了秘書長您要不要回來剛剛回來又走"},{"start":30025.896,"end":30042.875,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":30121.724,"end":30133.832,"text":"我們現在繼續開會秘書長說他盡快會回到在秘書長回到之前本席也想特別表揚還是有是非對錯"},{"start":30139.297,"end":30154.493,"text":"民進黨執政,行政團隊就只聽民進黨團或民進黨的委員的。我們現在這樣子好了,因為太多人。本席直接來了解一下。來,不好意思。我們請問,第一位您是﹗"},{"start":30160.379,"end":30160.98,"text":"內政衛福勞動處蘇勇副處長"},{"start":30177.549,"end":30195.187,"text":"主席處處長李秋香處長 辛苦你們了我本來會議只排到兩點但是真的你們辛苦了因為整個的議事杯葛你們都全程看在眼裡來那下一位對面這位女性 您是哪個單位"},{"start":30200.41,"end":30221.226,"text":"交通環境支援處陳盈榮陳處長大家給他掌聲那再下一位黑色衣服的跟著主計那下一位我好像來過很多次了李易柔專門委員謝謝你們也辛苦你們了真的"},{"start":30234.973,"end":30238.535,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院部分"},{"start":30260.879,"end":30289.755,"text":"好,那我們現在介紹應該說我們剛剛已經介紹在場的我們現在確認不在場的我們在場的委員也是很辛苦被民進黨杯葛議事一整天霸佔主席台但是呢其實我們都在院區內因為我們是真心希望好好的開會的來,我們有高津素美委員牛許廷委員丁學忠委員"},{"start":30291.927,"end":30319.124,"text":"張志倫委員徐宇貞委員黃建斌委員在場的委員有這幾位那接下來不在場的我們行政院的秘書長公民心秘書長發言人李慧芝也不在法規會主任委員沈淑菲也不在"},{"start":30320.503,"end":30323.284,"text":"綜合業務處處長 彭少博處長 外交國防法務處處長 譚宗保處長 財政主計金融處處長 王淑瑞處長 經濟能源農業處處長 吳明慧處長 教育科學文化處處長 吳敬儒處長"},{"start":30347.714,"end":30372.924,"text":"消費者保護處處長 中瑞蘭處長 不在性別平等處處長 吳秀珍處長 不在新聞傳播處處長 邱兆平處長 不在人權及轉型正義處處長 賴俊兆處長 不在國土安全辦公室主任 林潔主任 不在"},{"start":30374.842,"end":30383.965,"text":"災害防救辦公室副主任王怡文副主任不在公共關係處處長莊麗蘭處長不在秘書處處長徐益良處長人事處處長"},{"start":30408.378,"end":30414.841,"text":"人事處處長郭素卿政風處處長葉建華資訊處處長朱宇琦食品安全辦公室主任徐輔南部聯合服務中心執行長徐乃文"},{"start":30432.372,"end":30441.043,"text":"中部聯合服務中心執行長莊敬誠東部聯合服務中心執行長洪宗凱雲嘉南區聯合服務中心執行長劉米山"},{"start":30449.961,"end":30477.497,"text":"執行長不在金馬聯合服務中心執行長吳增允執行長不在能源及檢探辦公室主任吳明慧主任不在經貿談判辦公室執行秘書徐從清執行秘書不在打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官馬世元指揮官不在各自保護委員會籌備處主任李士德主任不在"},{"start":30478.803,"end":30498.634,"text":"那今天列席的官員本席都點名一遍了還不在那接下來接下來我們可能我看好好好那沒關係現在我先"},{"start":30508.832,"end":30534.042,"text":"在秘書長來之前本席在此原理做幾點宣告第一個本會委員發言時間4分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員發言時間4分鐘我們現在就截止發言登記因為已經一整天了"},{"start":30535.728,"end":30547.359,"text":"好那因為今天預算尋答本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見好沒有好那"},{"start":30556.061,"end":30558.724,"text":"請高金委員循序發言從早上我們看到民進黨團霸佔主席台不讓我們開會現在終於可以順利開會了可是我要講的是"},{"start":30570.256,"end":30575.44,"text":"我們的州委只喊休息通常喊休息呢我們的行政官員是不能夠離開我們院內的他只能夠在旁邊休息可是我們可以看到剛剛拱念書長其實人已經到了但是呢當中不曉得為什麼又接到了哪一通電話又離開了那絕大部分的行政院的官員都離開了剛剛主席剛剛一一唱名的名字"},{"start":30599.773,"end":30625.98,"text":"本席是認為這麼樣的不是與立法院的開會的議程更重要的是根本就不在乎我們今天的召委因為他離開的時候也沒跟召委說那我們今天的主秘已經邀請他們回來了他們再一次的回來可是離開的時候沒跟主秘說我們幾位委員全部都在這裡然後召委呢"},{"start":30627.196,"end":30627.536,"text":"謝謝高金委員"},{"start":30655.6,"end":30678.728,"text":"我們行政單位真的是非常的誇張傲慢難道真的行政院團隊的眼中只有民進黨或是民進黨的委員嗎所以我們看到過去可能是8年完全的執政所以"},{"start":30680.08,"end":30680.44,"text":"在過去8年這個"},{"start":30696.401,"end":30719.44,"text":"黨政不分所以整個的行政院跟立法院民進黨黨團就整個合在一起無視於民眾的困苦無視於民眾的需求但是他們就是遂行他們想要做什麼在今天我們一個行政院的預算審查答詢"},{"start":30724.662,"end":30746.847,"text":"行政院的官員可以如此的默示立法院那這個部分我們今天我們就請這個國民黨團的委員提出譴責案那我們予以譴責一定要強烈的嚴重的譴責好謝謝"},{"start":30753.032,"end":30765.722,"text":"那我們現在因為繼續等待行政院秘書長那我們還是先休息先休息秘書長一來我們就直接進行答詢好現在休息"},{"start":31079.551,"end":31105.697,"text":"好 那我們現在繼續開會那現在是要進行報告原本是要請行政院龔明新秘書長來報告但是龔秘書長沒有來應該說剛剛來了又配合民進黨黨團的策略又離開了而且還要求所有的行政官員離開還有國會聯絡人全部都走了"},{"start":31106.952,"end":31120.5,"text":"但是本席在這裡特別宣告提送之書面報告請委員們自行參閱並刊登公報在此有一份譴責案我們請宣讀"},{"start":31126.499,"end":31142.63,"text":"按由內政委員會今日議程審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院部分：然行政院秘書長龔明星已到內政委員會：卻在未經召委同意下竟自離開會議室：對於行政院秘書長刻意迴避國會監督：藐視國會之行徑：因與嚴厲譴責以維護國會尊嚴提案人"},{"start":31150.635,"end":31157.641,"text":"委員：張志倫﹑徐宇貞﹑黃建斌﹑牛巡庭﹑丁雪忠﹑宣讀完畢好,我們就照這份譴責案,照案通過,請問有沒有異議?好,沒有異議,照案通過那接下來"},{"start":31176.259,"end":31203.79,"text":"我們要本席徵詢徵詢在場的委員因為這個要照發言的還是有想要上來的是不是按照程序誰來誰沒來公示於眾沒來的官員沒來的委員都要讓全民看到啊好那剛剛沒來的官員本席都一一唱名了那現在呢"},{"start":31206.999,"end":31230.816,"text":"我們現在來進行尋答請登記第一位的蘇巧惠委員發言蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員不在接著請張宏祿召委張宏祿召委張宏祿召委不在"},{"start":31233.37,"end":31235.71,"text":"好接下來請張志倫委員好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體先進大家早大家全國的民眾可以看到民進黨早上來霸佔這個主席台結果下午真的可以來開會的時候民進黨的委員一個都不在現場"},{"start":31262.745,"end":31291.121,"text":"而且剛剛我們特別剛剛還看到我們行政院的秘書長剛剛還帶著所有的行政官員通通坐在底下不曉得是接到誰的神秘的指令結果全部都退席我想要請問行政院的秘書長請問這麼不重視國會嗎?這麼不重視人民選出來的立法委員不要立法委員質詢嗎?難道這就是綠色恐怖嗎?所以我要跟行政院中央派院長"},{"start":31292.432,"end":31292.953,"text":"國民黨團提出一個譴責案"},{"start":31309.993,"end":31310.233,"text":"請公民心秘書長"},{"start":31336.77,"end":31346.596,"text":"律師長律師長不在吼我覺得這非常不尊重吼那我們今天吼人民非常重視的吼還有現在行政院整個霸凌的案件吼"},{"start":31347.779,"end":31370.614,"text":"我記得卓榮泰院長說霸凌的事情是不能容忍7天之內要把所有的事情都要處理完畢最近大家可以看到行政院公關處的莊處長莊立然處長的這個霸凌案而且本辦公室有接到這個行政院公關處的直接的這個爆料所以我是不是可以請這個莊處長公關處莊處長質詢"},{"start":31375.856,"end":31391.582,"text":"主席,沒有,不在嗎?莊處長有沒有來?大林的莊處長有沒有來?嗯,剛剛點名沒有看到。我要請問莊處長的就是說,他不是不准那個加班費不准人家報嗎?刷卡金額不准人家報嗎?"},{"start":31392.862,"end":31418.38,"text":"而且還對這個在辦公室大分他兩個這個大博士他說他的員工是大博士啊然後說連基本的核稿都不會最近呢到外部有沒有什麼能力領導同仁啊請問今天今天處長莊處長不在我們要怎麼質詢啊處長你是接受卓榮派院長國民新國民秘書長的要求避免逃避國會的監督嗎"},{"start":31420.24,"end":31443.896,"text":"你們的同仁現在表示只要人職到院會都會拉肚子而且被霸凌連上廁所洗澡都要不斷確認訊息而且還要吃安眠藥才能入睡請問處長你今天確定不來嗎?阿不敢來啦好第二我要請教等於是全人民關心的中新聞周刊爆料的我們的秘書處的莊處長"},{"start":31446.267,"end":31451.629,"text":"徐處長徐處長我請教主席徐處長是不是請徐處長上來做質詢張委員那個秘書處的徐義良處長沒有到場我要請教徐處長他今天沒來大家都很想要問他秘書處的徐處長為什麼跑到那個這個官邸啊"},{"start":31470.202,"end":31489.401,"text":"我們這個官邸帶著這個女同事去官邸一個半小時他到底是去做什麼事情大家知道嗎?難道今天我們中共派院長秘書長就是這樣子來袒護他們讓他們今天沒有受質詢嗎?到底在這個官邸一個半小時是做什麼事情?"},{"start":31490.755,"end":31506.294,"text":"秘書長的職責是去是週末跑去觀底嗎還帶了一個女同事去觀底非常的不能接受所以在這邊我們要跟行政院講為什麼我們要做這樣的質詢是因為你們的私德已經影響到公務"},{"start":31507.625,"end":31531.115,"text":"以想到全人民的觀感所以今天我們所有國民黨的委員從早上等到現在終於可以開會了沒有想到我們行政院完全藐視國會我也希望全國人可以看到這就是現在賴清德他的戰狼形態也是導致我們現在立法院衝突不斷請各位國人看清楚謝謝"},{"start":31538.911,"end":31558.551,"text":"在下一位委員發言之前本席要先宣告本日議程所列的預算案我們的相關提案請在113年12月27日也就是下個星期五中午12點以前送至內政委員會"},{"start":31560.032,"end":31580.752,"text":"那再來就是本席想請我們的內政委員會的行政人員是否再次的聯絡公民信秘書長請他能夠到場以及率領行政院相關團隊那如果本席再給他機會如果再不到場那就不要怪"},{"start":31582.455,"end":31598.502,"text":"沒有給他們預算這個能夠爭取他們預算的這個機會那我們國民黨團一定會對行政院的預算做出最嚴重的"},{"start":31600.646,"end":31604.147,"text":"張家俊委員李博義委員王美惠委員黃捷委員"},{"start":31649.729,"end":31650.689,"text":"徐新穎委員徐宇貞委員"},{"start":31686.523,"end":31712.828,"text":"主席還有在場的各位委員沒有官員大家好我想今天我們針對中央政府的這個行政院的總預算案我們今天進行詢答那其實我們在場的每個委員都對這一次針對行政院的總預算的詢答我們其實都非常的用心所以每個人都寫了非常多的這個資料要來這個就教育我們行政院的這個鞏明星鞏秘書長"},{"start":31716.128,"end":31720.512,"text":"結果我們現在正式開會之後發覺公秘書長不在現場所有官員都不在那我們這樣有什麼辦法能夠把他的這個讓他的總預算能夠過關因為我們完全不了解覺得行政院根本不在乎我們內政委員會對他們的審查"},{"start":31734.184,"end":31744.709,"text":"行政院根本不在乎預算有沒有過 行政院根本就是把我們這個內政委員會的委員當空氣 所以針對這個部分我們剛剛已經這個發出了譴責案 我們覺得在這樣不重視我們的這個委員的狀況之下 那我們要怎麼樣能夠讓他預算能夠過"},{"start":31755.214,"end":31755.835,"text":"觀光產業今年到現在已經逆差796萬人次,逆差推估也超過7500億"},{"start":31770.131,"end":31777.656,"text":"我們可以看到行政院現在的這個狀況就是因為他們不重視觀光那尤其是剛剛舉行完的雙城論壇我們可以看到上海市長也特別講說要宣布推動上海居民赴台旅遊這是對我們的觀光業是一個好的契機我今天本來也想要問我們的這個狗明星狗秘書長您對這樣的事情是不是樂觀其成但是狗秘書長不在"},{"start":31799.289,"end":31802.53,"text":"另外呢我今天本來還要想問的就是數位身份證已經這個暫緩到現在已經5年的時間但是每年還是編列6375萬來維育那些永遠用不到的設備那我想問一下狗祕書長他的看法是如何結果狗祕書長也不在"},{"start":31820.216,"end":31834.526,"text":"他也不敢回答這個問題還有呢我們知道現在行政院已經變成不倫戀情跟霸凌文化的這個風暴中心今天本來應該要在現場備詢的徐義良處長我們秘書處的徐義良處長跟公關處的莊惠蘭處長兩位除了"},{"start":31840.97,"end":31841.13,"text":"緊急事項"},{"start":31860.593,"end":31880.388,"text":"我們行政院的卓榮泰卓院長說他不管是最近的霸凌案不管是這個衛福部的霸凌案各部會的霸凌案他都要求要在一個禮拜內徹查完畢但是為什麼行政院的這個發生的霸凌跟發生的不倫戀到現在已經幾個禮拜甚至包括前秘書長這個"},{"start":31881.929,"end":31899.024,"text":"李孟燕的這個案子已經到現在超過半年了,到現在都還沒有任何的調查報告,也沒有任何的這個針對這個部分,行政院有提出說明所以卓文泰院長是不是針對這個部分呢?事實上一直都是寬以待己,嚴以律人呢?卓院長你是不是寬以待己?"},{"start":31903.968,"end":31923.503,"text":"也已律人：別的部會要求一個禮拜要完成報告：但是呢,行政院到現在脫脫脫：始終都還沒有任何的調查報告：所以在這邊我們嚴厲的譴責：既然行政院認為他們的預算不重要：那我們也會善盡我們的職責：算除所有行政院的預算,謝謝好,謝謝徐宇珍委員那接下來請劉許廷委員"},{"start":31938.055,"end":31959.707,"text":"謝謝主席公民心秘書長有請公民心秘書長不在李慧芝發言人有請李慧芝發言人不在沈淑菲主任委員有請主任委員不在彭少博處長有請不在蘇永富處長不在譚中寶處長不在陳一榮處長不在王淑端處長不在吳明慧處長不在吳靜茹處長不在鍾瑞蘭處長不在吳修貞處長不在"},{"start":31963.809,"end":31981.454,"text":"秋兆平處長不在賴俊昭處長不在林潔主任不在王毓文主任不在周一蘭處長不在徐一良處長不在郭素心處長不在葉建華處長不在呂秋香處長不在算了我不想再念了通通不在"},{"start":31983.032,"end":32002.726,"text":"各位媒體前面的好朋友 聞所未聞本席從議員一路做到立法委員 沒想到竟然有一天可以對著空氣質詢 不只民進黨的委員沒有來 連官員都可以不來 請問這不是薪水小偷 什麼才是薪水小偷"},{"start":32004.025,"end":32021.542,"text":"民進黨的立委協助民進黨的官員逃避監督請問這不是蛇鼠一窩什麼才是蛇鼠一窩今天早上就開始搞導彈搞亂早上秀下線下午人不見"},{"start":32022.623,"end":32030.926,"text":"我們今天從頭到尾立場非常清楚只要你願意讓出主席台大家按照議事的程序來討論來開會我們就讓會議順利的來舉行我們在下午2點因為本來法定的時間到2點之所以要來提延長開會動議就是因為我們希望這一場會議順利的舉行不要耽誤預算的審查結果這一群人崩潰"},{"start":32050.902,"end":32058.069,"text":"在那邊胡說八道說會議不成立然後竟然可以直接讓行政官員離席啊"},{"start":32059.703,"end":32086.576,"text":"聞所未聞阿到底把我們徐欣盈召委放在哪裡到底把立法院的意識規則跟慣例放在哪裡這就是民進黨醜惡的嘴臉昨天還在說我們反民主搞戒嚴今天到底是誰在搞消失不見我都忍不住要講一下在下午等待他們讓出主席台的時候今天還有兩位美女委員黃婕委員王美惠委員開窗戶呼喚劉許廷委員回來開會"},{"start":32087.877,"end":32106.908,"text":"我知道大聲回應你只要讓出主席台我就會回來開會下午4點鐘民進黨讓出主席台我們國民黨的委員通通回來開會我們說到做到但請問我們親愛的民進黨同事死去哪裡啦立法院可以這樣子搞的嗎"},{"start":32108.935,"end":32126.851,"text":"結果本來公民心秘書長來好歹願意認真開會的我們認真質詢競好立法委員的本份竟然有神秘人士咬個耳朵官員就退席了本來剛剛還有五個處長乖乖坐在那邊我們還給他拍拍手人現在也不見了"},{"start":32128.232,"end":32145.59,"text":"問所未聞這就是民進黨政府的執政水準這就是民進黨的執政品質護航霸凌逃避監督早上秀下線下午人不見請社會大眾認明誰才是真正的薪水小偷謝謝"},{"start":32151.667,"end":32169.162,"text":"謝謝牛許廷委員在下一位委員發言之前本席也要在這邊宣布剛剛本席有特別請我們內政委員會的行政人員來聯絡行政院秘書長"},{"start":32170.967,"end":32197.605,"text":"公民署長以及請公民署長還有這個整個行政團隊能夠回來那本席請他們能夠聯絡三次那經過內政委員會的行政人員回報都聯絡了但是都聯絡不上都聯絡不上所以本席也要在這裡向社會大眾特別很沉重但是我們也是很嚴厲的來譴責"},{"start":32200.728,"end":32226.739,"text":"第一個一直說一直說我們內政委員會預算審查是最後的但是我們要審預算不是遭遇杯葛就是霸佔主席台再不然應該不知道前面有沒有主秘我們之前立法院也有發聲要質詢結果行政官員集體退場的情況嗎好"},{"start":32231.007,"end":32254.315,"text":"既然我們要正式的開會行政官員集體退場或是在還沒有經得召委同意的時候就離席所以從此請民進黨不要再說我們不審預算"},{"start":32256.229,"end":32267.345,"text":"預算的耽誤都是行政團隊自己還有民進黨的委員來耽誤我們議事的程序所以我們在這裡"},{"start":32270.751,"end":32292.363,"text":"最後我們要宣告就是我們已經給了行政院機會他可以來捍衛他的預算但是他們就是放棄他們就放棄了好那我們看到很多委員都陸續前來所以我們讓今天有很多位三四十位的委員來登記我們讓這個"},{"start":32295.024,"end":32308.593,"text":"需要還是要爭取質詢發言的委員可以來對充分的發言下一位請吳啟明委員吳啟明委員吳啟明委員不在接下來請丁學忠委員感謝主席小牛你今天就當行政院的官員"},{"start":32325.971,"end":32329.814,"text":"昨天聽到我們的秘書長打電話來說今天行政院的預算請我們再多多支持"},{"start":32348.314,"end":32356.939,"text":"結果昨天我有請我們辦公室要寫一份針對預算的執行稿 早上寫得比較犀利 結果我們想說技術上有在尊重委員 結果我們昨天改作比較柔和"},{"start":32367.912,"end":32368.492,"text":"稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍"},{"start":32392.844,"end":32400.506,"text":"與陳正仁院長做訊息的已經過一年,不知今晚的進度如何這是要請教我們秘書長的還有我們美麗島現時要捐一億兩千幾萬要讓我們個資法與組織法的修法案今年要有什麼要又沒完成的工作需要美麗家居來完成"},{"start":32423.131,"end":32424.732,"text":"要有答案。再來在新聞說：這個審核是因為從未處成立是為了憲法法定黨定位各位要求：居宿愛黨三年來審理一個：對於各自的獨立機關單位：否佔我們的獨立的隱私權：現在這個時候港媒與各位就告急了：本來我們行政院的公法是希望"},{"start":32451.886,"end":32455.208,"text":"今年可以完成這個各自委員會的組織法草案：要有看到這個組織法的草案：希望可以請技術長來說明："},{"start":32471.096,"end":32471.796,"text":"議員．審查委員．審查委員"},{"start":32499.801,"end":32502.752,"text":"在場的各位同仁還有媒體朋友大家好"},{"start":32504.663,"end":32529.061,"text":"我第一次當立委我以前的工作是在鄉鎮公所那我的工作經驗裡面不管是在臺東縣議會的經驗或是在代表會的經驗我們從來沒有看過在會議主席沒有宣布上位之前可以離開我今天真的是也長了知識第一次發現原來立法院真的不一樣真的不一樣可以這樣子"},{"start":32530.642,"end":32540.809,"text":"今天陳律師中委員聊到的事情,我相信他跟我感覺都很相似啦,就是,我們在鳳町公司說不准再這樣經營,主席還不會把社會精神鬧動,可以離開,所以我們要進行什麼,我們也是第一次這樣"},{"start":32545.812,"end":32561.264,"text":"我相信這個是一個很特別的經驗其實在今天也是在昨天我們秘書長也提到了在電話中也特別說希望能夠來協助這一次的預算來審查我們也列了一些問題想要來請教一下我們的秘書長"},{"start":32562.265,"end":32589.739,"text":"讓我們看到從111年之後就是後疫情時代我們行政院預算不斷的在增加我們想要了解到說那預算增加的部分如果是扶國人民的這些政策我們都願意來支持可是我們並沒有看到這個國家因為預算增加變得更好也希望秘書長來說明那另外就是在於我們最近發生的這個公務部門霸凌的事件希望行政院能夠拿出"},{"start":32590.259,"end":32616.17,"text":"有效的方式來解決然後來照顧我們公部門自己的勞工也就是我們的公務人員那很顯然的今天在場的當事人都不在我們也不知道怎麼來問那還有另外就提出一些預算我們認為有浮邊的一些情況像是允許費在113年的時候是一個費用多了一年之後就增加快一倍的費用我們也很納悶說到底是什麼"},{"start":32617.451,"end":32617.691,"text":"委員會議委員會議"},{"start":32632.611,"end":32660.028,"text":"今天真的是讓我們開了眼界就是我們不知道立法委員到底他的職權要怎麼行使特別是在遇到這樣的情況之下那也謝謝各位讓我這個機會能夠來質詢一個空氣那我想我的質詢就到這邊也謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝黃建斌委員的發言下一位請高金素美委員發言"},{"start":32670.58,"end":32695.256,"text":"主席在場的委員同仁沒有官員好大家知道嗎我在昨天的時候還收到了拱明星秘書長給我的簡訊他說高金委員您好我是行政院拱明星向您致意明天行政院院本部的預算請您多支持謝謝請問一下這是要怎麼支持啊"},{"start":32696.796,"end":32712.172,"text":"這是要怎麼支持行政院的預算啊我今天本來是要問大家還記得嗎今年的9月20號立法院一開議的時候我們就看到行政院沒有依照立法院通過的法律來編列進法補償的預算"},{"start":32715.199,"end":32718.72,"text":"不編列預算。所以呢我們在野黨非常的努力10月17號10月21號10月24號三次朝野協商的努力最後最後終於在11月的7號行政院正式承認他的錯誤了所以我今天就要來追問進法補償的預算要怎麼編列期還有"},{"start":32742.688,"end":32750.613,"text":"原住民族綜合發展基金因為缺乏妥善的管理還有經費的撥補已經要面臨破產了105年我們的基金還有97億114年我們只剩下17億大家知道嗎明年以後115年後原住民的綜合發展基金如果不撥補進去就破產了這是非常嚴重的問題啊"},{"start":32772.888,"end":32789.214,"text":"我覺得我這立法院你們剛新進的你們真的是看到了歷史上的一頁我這立法院23年了我從來都不知道我們的行政官員原來真的是黨國不分"},{"start":32790.936,"end":32793.978,"text":"我們的官員應該非常清楚知道他們的身份是中華民國的人民繳出的納稅錢讓他們可以領薪水我們可以看到行政院今天不僅僅是拱壁書長帶隊離開所有的官員也離開了只接到了一通神秘的電話或者是有一個人在這邊下令然後大家起鳥獸散"},{"start":32819.912,"end":32822.293,"text":"我覺得真的是非常非常的荒謬行政院卓院長你沒有依法編列我們的進法補償現在又藐視國會你們真的是上樑不正下樑歪呀真的是一個比一個還狠一個比一個還厲害根本無視於國會的存在"},{"start":32845.782,"end":32869.402,"text":"你們不是在講嗎?也支持嗎?支持韓國的這個戒嚴嗎?難怪大家還記得的話我有一次總質詢我問了左院長我說左院長你是不是要向希特勒學習他們當時就是宣布戒嚴解散國會然後逮捕不同政黨的領袖"},{"start":32871.86,"end":32885.025,"text":"今天民進黨好像真的是在復制這種情況我真擔心哪一天立法院是不是有一把火給燒了真的不希望被我總質詢的議員給猜中看這種狀況可能我們要在這邊先提醒一下立法院的我們的水電人員請注意一下我們立法院裡面的電力系統"},{"start":32900.571,"end":32921.948,"text":"萬一哪一天說電線不小心走火整個立法院就被燒起來了我希望我的預言不要說中在這裡給予最嚴重的譴責謝謝好 謝謝高金素梅委員接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員好 謝謝請鄭天才委員"},{"start":32933.819,"end":32954.655,"text":"今天我在經濟委員會審查預算審查完預算之後下午又去參加中央行政機關組織基準法還有行政院組織法運動部及所屬的相關的行政法人的"},{"start":32955.98,"end":32982.909,"text":"這些組織的一個草野協商協商完之後就上來結果一看怎麼只有這個立法委沒有行政機關了所以我非常非常的訝異因為我所接到的訊息是今天還沒有結束會議還沒有結束竟然沒有看到行政機關的人"},{"start":32984.912,"end":33007.67,"text":"而我昨天之前就在準備要質詢這個行政院秘書長針對行政院的預算尤其是這個相關的預算裡面相關的這些各處有沒有積極的來"},{"start":33012.389,"end":33039.142,"text":"提供資訊給行政院院長所召開的一原住民族基本法所召開的研究法推動會因為過去長年來八年來行政院一原住民族基本法所召開的推動會原住民族基本法推動會都是在做無關"},{"start":33041.417,"end":33070.168,"text":"原住民族基本法所規定要制定的法律都沒有提而都是在談跟原住民族基本法無關的這些議案所以有新的這個行政院院長上任然後又是新的這個行政院秘書長從國發會到擔任秘書長這個部分都是需要"},{"start":33071.591,"end":33099.995,"text":"這個要求這個秘書長應該要安排好相關原住民族基本法相關的這些議程的安排譬如說要讓人民會去報告去說明為什麼原住民族自治法在過去的8年都沒有出人民會為什麼都沒有出人民會"},{"start":33101.264,"end":33125.439,"text":"嚴明會為什麼都沒有送到行政院這應該要列在這個嚴紀法推動會的由院長主持的會議裡面來去檢討又譬如說嚴祝民族土地及海域法這8年來嚴明會也都沒有送到行政院來審議"},{"start":33128.142,"end":33148.833,"text":"所以這個也是應該延期法推動會所應該要去這個檢討或是要去審議的部分要去討論的部分又譬如說延期法這個明定要定定部落工法人的設置辦法這8年來"},{"start":33150.861,"end":33162.201,"text":"這8年來都沒有定 這個都是應該研究法推動會 行政院院長召集的會議裡面來去檢討的 但是在過去的8年都沒有"},{"start":33163.086,"end":33184.365,"text":"本來是要去質詢這個行政院的秘書長因為他過去在國發會當過主任委員他應該要很了解這個管考因為管考就是行國發會的重要的業務當然行政院秘書長應該要好好的管考結果今天沒有辦法質詢他非常非常的遺憾以上謝謝"},{"start":33187.638,"end":33194.346,"text":"好,謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員不在請洪孟凱委員"},{"start":33205.666,"end":33234.221,"text":"今天質詢行政院114年度施政計畫跟收支預算報告我跟大家報告什麼概念行政院從前年112年總預算13億多到去年113年總預算變成14億多到今年也要編明年的預算暴增到15億多一年多一億多的預算"},{"start":33235.305,"end":33236.886,"text":"不用審查嗎?"},{"start":33236.886,"end":33237.166,"text":"不用審查嗎?"},{"start":33237.166,"end":33238.187,"text":"不用報告嗎?"},{"start":33238.187,"end":33255.118,"text":"不用了解嗎?你的施政計劃央央沙沙寫了12項裡面委員們都在準備都在做資料的收集都在做功課結果今天要質詢的時候可以所有官員一字排開全部不見在護航什麼?"},{"start":33255.118,"end":33255.478,"text":"是沒有辦法回答嗎?"},{"start":33261.121,"end":33280.642,"text":"理念的部分明年的預算行政院編了15億多我們要問15億要花在哪裡一年多一億多這是什麼自然增生是不是那完全官員不在沒有辦法尋答一句話講嘛"},{"start":33282.168,"end":33292.406,"text":"你自己預算都不要沒緊的時候很抱歉啦那你要立法院我們要幫人民看準荷包要專業審查嚴格把關那就建議內政委員會嚴格把關啊"},{"start":33296.465,"end":33317.422,"text":"沒有詢答沒有審查預算就乾脆全部都擱置吧因為既然連秘書長都不要緊15億的預算召委已經宣布今天開會到12點了而且今天早上我們就已經8點的時候就已經來登記發言了如果不是民進黨委員站在主席台霸佔主席台的話"},{"start":33319.315,"end":33337.135,"text":"早就可以詢答啦我們等到現在了沒有辦法詢答那既然官員不重視預算那我真的誠心建議沒有詢答沒有審查所有預算就先放著吧再者這兩天有一個大新聞啊行政院裡面有處長"},{"start":33338.456,"end":33356.51,"text":"跟下屬有霸凌的事件有婚外情的事件秘書長到底調查的狀況為何能不能跟國人清楚明白交代還利用官邸來約會或者說有其他的一個狀況真相在哪裡早上說秘書長要進來的時候媒體詢問秘書長不發一言不發一語啊說實在話他"},{"start":33363.111,"end":33388.356,"text":"員工怎麼樣做私人行為歸私人行為但是如果說有用到公部門有用到官邸有用到公家機關的話該不該向國人說明跟報告清楚當然應該啊再者這兩天又傳出有霸凌女王是行政院人事總處我們講日據有叫派遣女王啊台灣更厲害叫霸凌女王啊"},{"start":33389.249,"end":33395.596,"text":"莫名其妙我們可不可以不要有這樣子的一個害群之馬在公佈門體系裡面那這樣子的一個人現在調查狀況為何沒有說明"},{"start":33404.13,"end":33430.741,"text":"甚至我知道說好像連委員要相關所知的部分調查報告還沒有辦法提供今天本席辦公室已經正式發函要求去識別化給本席清楚的調查報告我們看行政院什麼時候會提供最後這兩天真的很遺憾大法官的被提名人說不敢面對當初死刑的這個受害者的家屬"},{"start":33431.929,"end":33454.42,"text":"就是一些被害者的家屬要座談會大法官被提名不敢面對現在行政院的秘書長也不敢面對內政委員會的質詢我們要問當上意大於民意當上面的意思來大於代表人民的立法院的時候到底現在官員是不是都在聽黨意而不是民意"},{"start":33455.16,"end":33472.333,"text":"所以我們真的強烈譴責今天立法院內政委員會還在開會的時候所有官員就已經先落跑這樣子一個落跑行為就是逃避監督就是逃避人民的立法院就是沒有辦法對自己的施政負責我們予以最強烈譴責好 謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員接下來請麥毓貞委員"},{"start":33486.411,"end":33499.764,"text":"主席好,有請秘書長上臺。所以呢,因為缺席,所以我要跟總統報告。"},{"start":33501.519,"end":33506.301,"text":"我們今天是內政委員要開會我們8點就來要簽到了但是呢當我們9點要開會的時候我們進來看到的我們的內政委員會裡面全部都不是內政委員"},{"start":33518.499,"end":33537.841,"text":"所以開什麼會所以呢這樣子的行為要領政府的薪水占用我們的會議室還有讓大家每天在一整天在這邊等他浪費時間這樣子的浪費我們的國家的資源誰來陪我們"},{"start":33539.88,"end":33568.195,"text":"這個政府來陪我們嗎還說大家說我們薪水小偷是誰是薪水小偷他們佔領一天在這邊還吃我們立法院的便當這樣算不算薪水小偷對不對沒有工作自己的工作沒有做來這邊霸佔這裡這樣才是真正的薪水小偷所以呢雖然是我們秘書長不在但是呢我們還是一樣工作要做"},{"start":33570.034,"end":33589.931,"text":"我們力能科技產業全球都在努力的目標我們一起努力讓我們台灣達成近年碳排的一天但在那一天來臨之前我們需要非常實務的面對台灣電力短缺的問題"},{"start":33591.312,"end":33592.894,"text":"要推動新的政策都要有設實施日期還有實施的目標但是呢我們立能在105年10月27日行政院會議報告"},{"start":33607.653,"end":33612.254,"text":"全面推動包含節能、創能、除能及智慧系統整合至能源轉型,以綠能推動產業發展、科技創新三大願景及焦距"},{"start":33626.468,"end":33626.568,"text":"臺電國家國營事業"},{"start":33642.283,"end":33643.264,"text":"他們寧願把電力這個預算讓財團還有公司電力者來解決缺電的問題"},{"start":33663.479,"end":33671.695,"text":"在我們看到的114年的台電編列的預算外購入再生能源算高達"},{"start":33673.882,"end":33678.404,"text":"1588億政府用納稅錢來去投資集團做虧本生意讓我們政府再來虧本制度收購的標準在哪裡還有明年還要編列824億預算來去購買光電用超高的價錢跟廠商購買"},{"start":33700.271,"end":33700.391,"text":"這是合理的嗎?"},{"start":33700.391,"end":33700.812,"text":"這算不算土地廠商?"},{"start":33700.812,"end":33701.092,"text":"我們台電每年都虧損多少錢?"},{"start":33701.092,"end":33701.672,"text":"大家才會覺得說好呢?"},{"start":33701.672,"end":33702.553,"text":"所以這個能源一直在推動但是一直在虧錢 所以我們呼籲我們的政府"},{"start":33719.005,"end":33720.705,"text":"我們的預算是我們人民的血汗錢,不要亂開,不要亂用,要看我們的人民需求來去編預算,不要為了自己的荷包,編到滿滿滿,裝到叭叭叭,這樣就不是我們需要的政府,謝謝"},{"start":33745.446,"end":33753.97,"text":"謝謝邁伊貞委員接下來請陳素悅委員陳素悅委員陳素悅委員不在請黃國昌委員謝謝召會"},{"start":33775.783,"end":33801.145,"text":"內政委員會其實我不是第一次來內政委員會有時候關心的一些議題重大的法案那我其實都會來以非本委的身份依法來內政委員會詢問相關的事項只不過說內政委員會我第一次看到所有被選的官員空蕩蕩"},{"start":33802.802,"end":33829.946,"text":"包括了我們行政院的秘書長龔明新行政院的發言人李慧芝行政院法規會的主委沈淑菲行政院綜合業務處的處長彭少博上面這些名單的人現在全部都不在全部都不在"},{"start":33832.093,"end":33836.255,"text":"我想當然我不是內政委員會的委員不過就一個小小的建議提供給今天會議的主席以及我們所有內政委員會的委員當作參考"},{"start":33861.668,"end":33889.446,"text":"這些官員到底是誰受益可以離開的這些官員到底是誰受益可以離開的甚至這些官員是誰打電話把他們叫走的這件事情立法院必須要有態度這件事情立法院必須要有態度民進黨的立委"},{"start":33890.851,"end":33912.712,"text":"常常講一句話我還記得本屆國會剛開始的時候他們說什麼?他們說委員的質詢權非常的重要不容遭受到剝奪為了這個事情明明自己該質詢的時候人不在"},{"start":33914.246,"end":33930.631,"text":"主席韓國瑜院長一直念名字人不在被跳過去了暴跳如雷跑去找韓國瑜院長要討公道結果那個時候的民進黨委員不斷的強調"},{"start":33932.341,"end":33938.706,"text":"執行權是立委在憲法裡面最核心的權限結果自己不在場被韓國院長跳過去了暴跳如雷說這個是憲法所保障我們立委最重要的核心權限結果民進黨"},{"start":33960.135,"end":33984.804,"text":"氣融融的跟全國人民展現立委的質詢權在民進黨行政官員的眼中不只一毛錢因為今天所發生荒謬的狀況是非常多認真的委員在這邊現在已經是下午5點56分了大家都在這邊開會"},{"start":33987.048,"end":34012.691,"text":"要珍惜每一個人登記執行的權利跟機會但是民進黨口中最寶貴最核心的執行權有一件事情可以把所有立委的執行權徹底的空洞化就是我們的行政官員全部不見我們的行政官員全部缺席"},{"start":34014.315,"end":34025.657,"text":"我們每一個人大家冷靜的想想屬以自知何以自知我為什麼說屬以自知何以自知我們在推動國會改革的時候我們當初立法院職權新施法以前借法喔從來沒有規範官員不來立委可以怎麼樣"},{"start":34042.33,"end":34063.83,"text":"修正前的立法院職權行使法從來沒有規範,官員不來立委可以怎麼樣?我們為了要讓立委職權行使明確化,符合在憲法裡面權力相互監督制衡的基本原則,我們把以前的法律漏洞給補起來了。"},{"start":34065.319,"end":34091.014,"text":"我在國會改革法案當中立法院職權刑事法25條第三項規定什麼規定行政官員不可以任意缺席沒有得到同意不可以任意缺席如果任意缺席的話有法律效果看到科署罰還還是要移給監察院彈劾但是現在由民進黨"},{"start":34094.709,"end":34102.512,"text":"所組成的綠色大法官在憲法判決裡面給我們所有的行政官員免死金牌為什麼我說他們給我們的行政官員免死金牌我們憲法法庭在他們做成的判決當中說什麼他說"},{"start":34117.17,"end":34142.683,"text":"行政首長在立法委員開會時故附有在場備詢與答詢的憲法義務我再念一次行政首長在立法委員開會時有附有在現場備詢與答詢的憲法義務而大法官先把話講得很漂亮"},{"start":34144.127,"end":34152.452,"text":"有在這邊的憲法義務啊但是但是最重要的就是這個但是但是呢行政院跟立法院平等定之"},{"start":34161.314,"end":34189.165,"text":"兩者各有其權並各司其職所以富有備詢義務的行政首長如果有重大事由沒有辦法出席應該本與權力分立下憲法機關相互尊重的原則行政首長要及時知會立法院並盡可能尋得會議主席各黨團與立法委員的諒解"},{"start":34190.905,"end":34210.719,"text":"提轉直下說那他要通知我們啊又取得大家的諒解啊來我請教一下主席啊行政院律師長發言人這些行政院的大官們有沒有通知您沒有沒有通知您沒有第一個"},{"start":34219.997,"end":34245.128,"text":"我們的憲法法庭說啊有來的憲法義務啊第二個不來的時候要通知啊要取得諒解啊所以是公然欺騙召委嘛公然欺騙召委嘛我們把事實先確認一下對主席沒有不敬那但是呢"},{"start":34250.031,"end":34277.826,"text":"我的最後憲法法庭的精華前面講的我必須要講幾乎都是空話為什麼都是空話不來可不可以處罰不可以處罰不來可不可以移送監察院彈劾不可以移送監察院彈劾如果要處罰要移送監察院彈劾啊我的憲法法庭跟我們全台灣人民宣告的憲法價值是違憲"},{"start":34281.943,"end":34284.324,"text":"違憲所以屬以自知何以自知台灣在權力分立的憲政架構下面長期以來飽受批評的是什麼是行政權獨大國會弱化沒有辦法有效的監督制衡結果我們的憲法法庭"},{"start":34310.077,"end":34315.699,"text":"我們的憲法法庭更賦予民進黨的行政官員免死金牌為什麼說有免死金牌憲法法庭說我有憲法義務要來對沒錯我有憲法義務那我不來你能拿我怎麼樣我們的憲法價值是行政官員愛來不來"},{"start":34332.95,"end":34358.475,"text":"不用取得同意不用告知主席所有人的憲法法庭在憲法訴訟的判決裡面說行政官員來這邊有義務有憲法義務講得非常的高啊那微展的這個憲法的義務的法律效果是什麼完全沒有任何法律效果真是讓大家大開眼界讓大家大開眼界接下來關鍵的問題來了"},{"start":34363.769,"end":34385.927,"text":"那我們立法院能夠怎麼辦?我們立法院能夠怎麼辦?其實我是呼應剛剛很多內政委員會委員的主張這個預算顯然我們行政院的幕僚長我們行政院所有一級的主管其實都不是很在乎"},{"start":34387.011,"end":34411.187,"text":"真的不是很在乎,他們的態度就是不在乎嘛那當然台灣民眾黨黨團我們一定尊重內政委員會各個委員在行使預算上面的權利那只是我必須要清楚的說明到第二回合到第二回合黨團可以提案協商的階段我們立法委員"},{"start":34412.659,"end":34432.519,"text":"依照立法院職權刑事法憲法法庭說這些行政官員有憲法義務但是他們不來其實也沒什麼關係我唯一的能夠處理的事情就他們預算行使我們預算的審查權跟刪除權台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":34435.546,"end":34456.611,"text":"針對今天我們行政院的秘書長藐視國會欺騙國會連來都不會來我們一定會清楚的反映在我們預算刪減的提案之上到時候我不知道我們的行政院是不是又要申請復議"},{"start":34458.669,"end":34474.134,"text":"申請憲法法庭給他裁判我也不知道我們的憲法法庭可以說行政院的預算不可以刪減刪減行政院的預算違憲是不是會有這麼荒謬的憲法主張我們大家拭目以待"},{"start":34475.154,"end":34494.682,"text":"但是作為立法委員站在人民的立場監督行政機關針對預算來進行刪減本來就是憲法所賦予我們的職權那今天會出現這樣子的狀況我必須要說行政院要負百分之百的責任"},{"start":34495.868,"end":34509.405,"text":"也希望我們行政院院長卓榮泰不要躲起來。站出來說清楚講明白是你下令滾明星回去了嗎?"},{"start":34513.149,"end":34541.36,"text":"今天造成這樣子的狀況到底是誰認為他在臺灣這個民主憲政的國家已經在扮演太上皇的角色我相信全臺灣人民都值得一個清楚的答案謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員接下來請陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員不在羅美林委員羅美林委員羅美林委員不在"},{"start":34543.564,"end":34568.836,"text":"李坤澄委員．李坤澄委員．李坤澄委員．李坤澄委員不在．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．河新淳委員．陳冠廷委員．陳冠廷委員．陳冠廷委員．陳冠廷委員．陳冠廷委員．陳�"},{"start":34573.055,"end":34583.468,"text":"陳庭菲委員陳庭菲委員陳庭菲委員不在羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在陳玉珍委員"},{"start":34594.963,"end":34608.25,"text":"謝謝主席這個本期也不是內政委員但是我也在內政委擔任過兩任的這個召委那我是財政委員會的召委今天我從昨天晚上事實上在議場門前過夜到今天早上在我們財政委員會審查預算審查完畢後下午開了幾個協調我看到我們內政委員會的委員到現在還在挑燈夜戰努力的在這個要對這個"},{"start":34620.797,"end":34620.977,"text":"民進黨委員不在．"},{"start":34638.055,"end":34639.517,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會議"},{"start":34660.879,"end":34666.683,"text":"行政院的秘書長郭明欣﹖秘書長以前國發會主委﹖他今天來不是代表他個人﹖他今天來是代表大家看到他的業務報告的這個第一句話裡頭說"},{"start":34681.499,"end":34704.815,"text":"今天應邀來報告感謝各位委員對本院的支持與協助請代表卓院長向各位委員致上最高的謝誠所以光明星今天的身份不是代表他光明星個人他今天是代表行政院的卓院長所以很好奇到底是不是什麼原因讓他離席呢是不是我們卓院長"},{"start":34705.975,"end":34706.636,"text":"為了要知道這個答案我想我先打個電話給那個"},{"start":34730.951,"end":34740.539,"text":"公務秘書長看到他接不接看到怎麼來回答這個問題為什麼是左院長請他離席呢還是他自己離席我們來看看他會不會接電話沒有聲音"},{"start":34764.121,"end":34764.161,"text":"五通齁"},{"start":34793.257,"end":34803.425,"text":"沒有接啊想溜聲齁我們再想一下想一下因為他正在忙碌說明在洗手間"},{"start":34805.663,"end":34808.806,"text":"您撥的電話無人接聽請稍後再撥"},{"start":34824.062,"end":34840.496,"text":"有一個是有關打擊詐欺指揮中心的指揮官我想從這個業務報告裡頭我們看到大家都知道現在國內的詐欺的情形非常的嚴重前一陣子還有內湖的這個一對因為被詐欺的母女因此而自殺親生"},{"start":34841.837,"end":34865.802,"text":"每天國人被詐騙至少有5億元以上的費用所以我們國人都非常關心政府到底要如何來打詐如何來防詐但是一樣我們看到今天的報告案裡頭內容完全隻字未提政府到底如何要來打詐即便政府成立了打擊詐騙打擊詐欺指揮中心"},{"start":34867.452,"end":34879.341,"text":"那今天所有的人都不見這個是在詐欺我們這邊的律法委員嗎告訴我們說他會出現他是在現場演出如何當全台灣最高的詐騙首腦嗎"},{"start":34882.56,"end":34885.763,"text":"行政院的預算今年有編列這個15億我想這個我們秘書長代表卓院長的缺席除了在法理上非常的藐視國會不尊重國會我們應該嚴厲譴責以外這個在實務上我們也看出來這個行政院事實上不在乎這個15億對他們來講15億是懶散的所以我到時候本席到時候在這個"},{"start":34907.521,"end":34907.902,"text":"最後一位你可以提"},{"start":34922.298,"end":34939.745,"text":"因為下禮拜五才停止收件您可以提對我在第二輪也會強烈的這個提出來那所以呢我想這件事情知事提到因為代表這個卓院長的這個公秘書長不在然後又沒有接電話又沒有說出任何的理由實在是應該提出譴責"},{"start":34942.298,"end":34971.179,"text":"說謊當然因為他是代表是國內最大最高的詐騙集團的首腦這個我想這個大家都已經是非常清楚了那當然我沒有譴責其他沒有道德委員民進黨委員擺拍是已經成為自然這個我們要習慣那事實上也不想開會他們只想站主席台但完全不想開會那我們希望這個事情是第一次絕對不容許再發生這個非常的重要請召委也要告訴這些沒有來的這些官員"},{"start":34972.1,"end":35000.707,"text":"正式的發文告訴他們說請他們要尊重我們委員來開會的這個權利也是他們應該出席的這個義務以上謝謝好謝謝謝謝陳奕臻委員接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在王育民委員王育民委員王育民委員不在鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在"},{"start":35005.982,"end":35007.943,"text":"目前登記發言的委員除了不在場者其餘均已發言完畢這邊有"},{"start":35031.038,"end":35034.322,"text":"在場委員提的譴責案我們請議事人員宣讀好,譴責案請宣讀"},{"start":35053.271,"end":35062.858,"text":"按由：有鑑於本日12月18日內政委員會審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院部分,緊接外秘書長龔明星已致會議室備詢,卻接獲神秘電話後,在未經召委同意下隨即離開會場,明顯迴避國會監督。"},{"start":35074.366,"end":35099.215,"text":"為維護國會尊嚴要求行政院於一週內向內政委員會提出調查報告以釐清事實真相並追究相關失職人員責任提案人委員高金素梅麥玉珍徐宇珍劉巡庭張志倫丁學忠宣布完畢好那這一份譴責案我們是不是照案通過"},{"start":35101.124,"end":35104.816,"text":"大家有沒有意義沒有意義那我們就通過"},{"start":35108.136,"end":35109.617,"text":"律法院律法院"},{"start":35134.432,"end":35154.16,"text":"我們中華民國最高民意機構每一位立委他代表著都是民眾的托付不管是區議員或不分區議員是民眾高度的托付所以行政院對立法院負責就是對全民負責但是他們可以這樣漠視民意"},{"start":35155.834,"end":35174.5,"text":"我們對於這種行為絕對不容允許所以我們也要請我們全國的民眾要能夠看清這個事實過去說國會改革其實國會改革就是國會的維權維護民眾的權益所以我們"},{"start":35176.267,"end":35201.903,"text":"立法委員是代表民眾在監督我們的行政單位我們不能夠讓行政單位為所欲為一切要依法所以我們再次的我們希望我們的行政單位能夠重視民意也要能夠回應我們整個立法委員所表達的也是民意的託付"},{"start":35202.864,"end":35224.658,"text":"那接著我們今天的會議由委員徐欣盈丁學忠黃建斌高金素梅等委員所提的書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那書面質詢請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會好本日議程處理完畢現在散會"},{"start":35228.388,"end":35229.65,"text":"我們堅持到五 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"158230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b951eeed9cc2fe3f048696179bdde51ed00e6b6e341bf309cff09ac5c11de7f6d354354e2f17e0785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"17:53:01 - 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的一天但在那一天來臨之前我們需要非常實務的面對台灣電力短缺的問題"},{"start":99.861,"end":101.441,"text":"要推動新的政策都要有設實施日期還有實施的目標但是呢我們立能在105年10月27日行政院會議報告全面推動"},{"start":117.346,"end":117.366,"text":"：審查："},{"start":134.997,"end":135.037,"text":"臺電國家國營事業?"},{"start":150.832,"end":151.813,"text":"他們寧願把電力這個預算讓財團還有公司電力者來解決缺電的問題。"},{"start":172.028,"end":180.234,"text":"在我們看到的114年的台電編列的預算外購入再生能源算高達"},{"start":182.795,"end":186.956,"text":"1588億政府用納稅錢來去投資集團做虧本生意讓我們政府再來虧本制度收購的標準在哪裡還有明年還要編列824億預算來去購買光電用超高的價錢跟廠商購買"},{"start":208.66,"end":227.551,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":227.671,"end":229.412,"text":"我們的預算是我們人民的血汗錢,不要亂開,不要亂用,要看我們的人民需求來去編預算,不要為了自己的荷包,編到滿滿滿,裝到叭叭叭,這樣就不是我們需要的政府,謝謝。"},{"start":253.315,"end":254.156,"text":"麥玉珍 陳素月 黃國昌"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}