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394,"end":1938.215,"text":"零一中人事費之其他給予凍結十分之一文中嘉賓等提案第三零二基本行政工作維持凍結百分之二十文吳宗憲等提案第五案科目同錢凍結一百萬元文吳思瑤等提案第六案零二中業務費之房屋建築養護費凍結五十萬元文陳俊宇等提案第七案零二中設備及投資凍結四分之一文吳宗憲等提案"},{"start":1939.016,"end":1945.844,"text":"第8案02中設備及投資之雜項設備費凍結十分之一文中嘉賓等提案第9案02中獎補助費之獎勵及慰問凍結五分之一文中嘉賓等提案"},{"start":1954.025,"end":1976.576,"text":"第10案第二幕委員問政業務第二節公費助理向下01公費助理經費凍結100萬元委員吳思堯等提案第11案第二幕第三節國會交流事務向下01國會交流事務經費凍結100萬元委員黃國昌等提案第12案至第14案為第三幕議事業務之預算提案"},{"start":1978.086,"end":1993.145,"text":"第12案第3目凍結50萬元委員無私藥等提案第13案第3目向下02委員會議事凍結50萬元委員無私藥等提案第14案科目同前凍結20萬元委員無私藥等提案第15案第4目"},{"start":1993.726,"end":1999.97,"text":"立法諮詢業務凍結20萬元委員吳斯堯等提案第16案第5幕國會圖書業務向下01圖書管理凍結100萬元委員吳斯堯等提案第17案第6幕公報業務向下02文書印刷中業務廢置物品"},{"start":2011.216,"end":2038.278,"text":"簡列200萬元為吳宗憲等提案。第18案至第25案為第8目一般建築及設備之預算提案。第18案第8目第一節營建工程凍結500萬元為莊瑞雄等提案。第19案第一節向下01營建工程凍結100萬元為吳思瑤等提案。第二十案第一節向下01中設備及投資之房屋建築及養及設備費"},{"start":2041.08,"end":2049.526,"text":"動結十分之一委員中嘉賓等提案。第21案第8目第三屆其他設備動結10%委員謝龍介等提案。第22案第三屆向下01其他設備中設備及投資資訊軟硬體設備費動結十分之一委員中嘉賓等提案。"},{"start":2060.174,"end":2079.929,"text":"第23案刻目同錢凍結十分之一委員中嘉賓等提案第二十四案第三節向下零一中設備及投資之雜項設備費凍結十分之一委員中嘉賓等提案第二十五案刻目同錢凍結十分之一委員中嘉賓等提案第二十六案至第四十八案分別為委員"},{"start":2081.03,"end":2081.411,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2100.965,"end":2117.458,"text":"預算數及所有提案均已宣讀完畢。進行討論前,我們先說明預算案的處理方式。依照委員會處理預算提案的慣例,稅務部分依來源別以向為單位,稅務部分依機關別以目為單位,分別依序進行審查。"},{"start":2118.479,"end":2130.136,"text":"各單位預算中與處理委員所提之徵三提案後,其餘未涉及預算的部分均已照列,有關正式別稅數預算,隨同機關別審查結果調整。"},{"start":2134.202,"end":2154.719,"text":"預算提案經由委員會幕僚的整理以將所收的委員提案彙整成預算提案本並且按照預算科目製作彙整表方便各位審查時參考請大家分別參閱提案本及彙整表進行討論此外特別提醒機關稍後經討論決議修正的預算提案請機關將修正內容"},{"start":2159.604,"end":2174.864,"text":"經提案委員簽名同意後,送交主席台並列入公報記錄。預算審查過程中,如有列席幕僚與首次答覆委員問題發言時,請先自行介紹職稱姓名,以立公報人員記錄。"},{"start":2178.326,"end":2199.561,"text":"現在進行本日會議效益層討論事項繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分先處理稅入部分因為沒有委員提案稅入預算均照列繼續處理稅出提案"},{"start":2201.214,"end":2229.326,"text":"處理前先做說明依照委員會處理預算案提案的慣例會讓所有提案委員先說明自己的提案並表達意見在經過機關衝突討論之後做成決議也就是實際上依據會整表所列的提案順序依序由提案委員先就提案內容進行說明之後再由機關代表域答覆然後再整目一起處理做成決議原則上我們按照慣例盡可能採取共識的方式處理"},{"start":2233.846,"end":2256.714,"text":"處理稅出部分依前述原則依序進行先請提案委員針對提案內容進行說明再請機關代表回覆之後再做決議請參與提案本集會整表進行討論那先處理第一幕案號第一至第九案請先請提案委員說明"},{"start":2260.203,"end":2268.131,"text":"第二案的吳思亞吳幹事長請我來幫他待會表示因為我的下一個案也跟他是一併相關我是不是第二三案一併表達"},{"start":2282.076,"end":2307.874,"text":"好那麼第二案呢這裡面提到的是立法院對於工會助理的編列其實應該隨著時事變遷跟實際需要再進行調整所以呢這個規模呢相當總共他的預算是14億0202萬7千元那其實我們是要五位員是希望我們凍結100萬元那麼希望能夠提出你等一下"},{"start":2319.525,"end":2333.297,"text":"第二案吳委員主張凍結一百萬元希望提出書面報告時的凍資 這個算是請立法院做一個規劃算是一個很基本的要求這是第二案的部分第三案的部分是有鑒於"},{"start":2334.438,"end":2363.076,"text":"全國軍公教人員的待遇自己要點有一個子女教育補助那其實目前我們事實上立法院的工作人員除了編制內的公務人員還有立法院禁用的約聘務人員那還有我們很大一群很重要的就是我們的助理那尤其公會助理他實質上他的雇主是我們立法院只是他在指揮調度運用上是交由各委員來聘用跟調度指揮可是實際上的雇主是我們立法院"},{"start":2363.616,"end":2390.482,"text":"那既然是稱為公會助理我們認為這些公會助理本身也應該享有比照軍公教人員的子女教育補助那關於這個部分呢因為呢涉及到這個相關法制面的部分所以本期呢是可以接受這個立法院我們應該好像是秘書處當時來跟我報告的總務處來跟我報告的那我可以接受改為主決議那麼是不是主決的內容呢待會印給大家"},{"start":2394.565,"end":2410.589,"text":"陳. 陳. 陳"},{"start":2413.975,"end":2434.36,"text":"主席我是不是接續第5案來做說明請說那第5案也是委員為請本席來說明的那事實上我們從2022年起我們就一個永續會那行政院希望每4年國家自願來做檢視那麼目前立法院的部分是沒有編列自願檢視報告那這其實"},{"start":2437.546,"end":2464.158,"text":"是整個政府都一體要來推動的而且政府尤其是立法院要升為表率因此關於我國最高立法機關對促進SDGS等各項指標的達成貢獻那麼這裡也是因為預算科目整目是1億9千餘萬元那我們這裡只是凍結100萬元要求立法院向本會委員會提出書面報告時的凍資這是"},{"start":2467.049,"end":2477.048,"text":"吳委員及本席待會提出的要求。好謝謝吼那下一個才是陳俊宇來陳俊宇委員是否要說明"},{"start":2478.069,"end":2501.5,"text":"好 謝謝主席那針對這個第6案的部分就是我們這個國會擴建的部分在去年度我們編列一個709萬那今年度看起來就是所有的預算都沒有這個做使用所以我還是拜託我們秘書長還有所有相關的這個科室對於這個我們國會擴建的部分這個問題應該來重視看怎麼樣趕快來啟動讓這個預算可以趕快來實現"},{"start":2511.515,"end":2511.595,"text":"第8案"},{"start":2535.936,"end":2550.943,"text":"立法院這裡面是提到了我們研究大樓的空調系統那因為事實上節能減碳那進行碳排而且事實上我們也要求行政機關要推動住宅家電太舊換新的補助還有行政院也提供了商業服務業節能"},{"start":2552.003,"end":2552.023,"text":"第……"},{"start":2579.514,"end":2580.316,"text":"請問機關部分就23568這幾案能不能一併說明謝謝"},{"start":2591.69,"end":2610.988,"text":"主席、各位委員。剛才非常謝謝總委員有部分改為主決議。那我是剛才從一位首先先謝謝謝陽翠委員第一案撤案。那第二案裡面本身,這裡面的一個情況"},{"start":2613.433,"end":2624.964,"text":"我是比較希望委員不要凍結案但是這個案裡面本身我要跟各位委員報告其實這個從96年裡面來當時對於這個一些費用大概都是經過朝委黨聯協商按照指數法326所編列的"},{"start":2636.255,"end":2636.275,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":2651.212,"end":2667.378,"text":"以目前在因為法院上是在32條如果黨團協商同意各這個費用可以增加那當然在以院方的幕僚立場當然就是說就配我去處理了我當時跟陳委員也是這樣報告那目前當時在96年在處理的時候是以8到14以8 5萬7乘以8等於40萬嘛"},{"start":2678.402,"end":2687.389,"text":"後來現在目前就是因為那個待的一些調整加熱吧那這一個這一個加班會當時是8萬黨官這裡是10萬嘛那是當時那是經過立法院在這個等於在在第"},{"start":2702.934,"end":2727.071,"text":"對第6屆第6會期第14次會在96年12月7號的14日裡面當時經過黨團協商結論的錢啊所以一直到現在那各位如果說委員如果是經過各黨團大概都有共同的情況你透過提案其實我剛才跟陳委員報告吧如果現在助理其實助理的這個水平越拉越高是對立法院的這一個"},{"start":2727.972,"end":2728.012,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":2752.155,"end":2758.978,"text":"我們也可以去研議但是我個人是認為說凍結這個預算是懇請各位委員是不是就不要凍結我們提一個報告那是不是透過那第三案是謝謝這個總委員是改為主決議但我們會去思考就是說因為其實這個案真正怎樣講起來是在這是聯視總出編的不是這個預算不在我們這邊"},{"start":2779.105,"end":2789.967,"text":"我們不在我們這邊所以主決議我們會透過這個是不是要跟人事總書去反映或什麼這個我想謝謝張委員改為主決議這是大概第三案那第四案謝謝這個吳委員改為主決議那第五案的本身其實已經有跟吳委員稍微提過吳委員是希望在今天的會裡面再來處理"},{"start":2807.831,"end":2816.681,"text":"我當然密室處理委員會去演議,但是我是希望預算不要跟我們凍結,讓我們稍後會跟各位委員做報告。這個是第5案,大概請各位委員可以給我們協助。"},{"start":2826.631,"end":2843.033,"text":"第6案,剛才陳委員所提的這個第2案,其實總共有4個案,第6案,第19案,第31案,其實事要委員所提的16案其實都是國會擴建的"},{"start":2844.895,"end":2858.624,"text":"所以是不是這四個案都合起來是不是等一下各位委員如果同意的話這40案是不是一併為改為鍾立雄委員所提的第31案的主決議所以請各位委員跟我們斟酌有四個案這一個為國會擴建大概有四個案在那至於第7案謝謝委員改為主決議所謂主決議我在"},{"start":2870.332,"end":2896.529,"text":"禮拜三跟各單位主管提的我說主決議並不是說改主決議就好你不需要那個內容你能夠施行不是像打高峰那樣可以可以不是這樣我那時候是相當嚴肅的跟各單位主管提的你要改為主決議你去溝通完可以改主決議你是能夠做得到你做不到你這個就等於是跟委員是不尊重啦"},{"start":2897.749,"end":2921.037,"text":"當時我在開會的時候也特別跟他們這樣講那第8案一樣這第8案其實這一個給我的資料是我跟總處長已經提過很多次因為這一個中興大陸當時得來不易啦這一個過程我不方便在這邊講那麼多其實這一個建築物已經很老舊了啦所以包括那水管都是已經會漏水"},{"start":2924.795,"end":2951.568,"text":"所以當然跟我報告以後他給我一個書面的是從11月8日已經有空調的這個祭司來看過了那當然他有一個規劃方案是跟我講但我說這一個在演繹當中的一個方案他有提了四個方案啦其實有書面在我這手中啦所以這個裡面是不是我們就把這一個為了這一個檢探的我們是提一個報告是不是就"},{"start":2952.088,"end":2952.349,"text":"第9案是非常謝謝這一個"},{"start":2964.532,"end":2968.135,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12月18日及19日兩天一次會議"},{"start":2996.885,"end":3008.579,"text":"主席,因為你有處理到我的第三頁,但是我還是要請大家過目一下。但是我的比較簡單,我先就剛剛第二案跟第五案的部分,我分別說明。"},{"start":3009.52,"end":3025.893,"text":"那第二案的確剛剛秘書長的說明那其實就算是不改為主決議其實以我們今天這兩案的文字表述都是提出書面報告後使得動之這其實跟你改為主決議其實沒兩樣"},{"start":3027.995,"end":3051.77,"text":"只是形式上有個凍結但是呢你只要告訴書面報告我們不會去為難不會說針對其他的一樣是五院之一我們要求提書面報告經同意後使得凍支如果後面加幾個經同意後使得凍支那就嚴重了因為要經同意的話那又一定要我們送到我們委員會來那經過委員會的重新審視後才能通過"},{"start":3052.791,"end":3071.167,"text":"所以今天我們下的這兩個吳世耀委員所做的這兩個動議提案他其實對於立法院本身相較於我看到之前有討論到監察院的部分還要加提書面報告今同意後始的動之那就真的是凍結"},{"start":3072.11,"end":3087.457,"text":"那這個呢其實我是覺得秘書長就不用太堅持因為吳委員請我做這個表達那對你們來講提個報告就可以動之了沒有實際上達到書面沒有真的影響到你們預算的執行這一點我先跟秘書長跟委員會做說明"},{"start":3089.748,"end":3109.278,"text":"至於我提的第三案現在有文字已經拿到了我剛剛也簽字了還是要請大家看一下這個主決議原件請立法院研議立法院公費助理納入教育補助對象之方案並於三個月內向本委員會提出書面報告這樣就好了"},{"start":3110.078,"end":3127.569,"text":"我沒有動你的預算我讓你提出書面報告那是不是說剛剛秘書長你有言議說你有說到說這個是人事總署的一通則通案性的規定但是我是覺得呢如果跟剛剛吳委員的第二案在整個公費助理待遇的一個提升上那麼"},{"start":3128.635,"end":3144.443,"text":"可能明目上是不是要用軍公教待遇知己條例那個是屬於管公務員的那個要人事總署那如果在立法院本身有沒有可能在對公費助理的待遇內容上把這個部分因為不是每個人都有子女教育啦"},{"start":3145.242,"end":3169.18,"text":"所以他會變成說跟一般工會助理不是齊頭式的每個人薪水多少你委員請幾個多少薪水額度不是他就會產生說當我僱用了他他有子女的時候在一定年齡之下學年他可能才會支領那這個時候的預算就比我們原來在編列的時候是很固定的就不一樣對不對我們原來你說的如果是工會助理的"},{"start":3170.207,"end":3189.062,"text":"待遇我們編列預算多少人多少額度一邊就好但是如果把這個子女教育補助比照公務人員我們是把它放到了給工會助理的待遇的一種考量當中那麼這個就會有一個有一個不是很固定額度可是這是有必要的"},{"start":3189.582,"end":3200.833,"text":"因為我們現在國家要積極推動硬硬少子化那我們的公會助理非常的辛苦那如果說他們自己有子女尤其是我遇到很多孩子都要"},{"start":3201.974,"end":3202.094,"text":"第8案"},{"start":3231.581,"end":3234.942,"text":"總務處的處長你們寫的這個字你們提供給我的這個節電膠能"},{"start":3261.943,"end":3262.483,"text":"因為剛剛秘書長有提到說不是只有中心大樓"},{"start":3282.267,"end":3311.226,"text":"中心大樓的電梯在我們看來是一種非常不夠聰明的電梯分成單雙還有層層亭那其實上你看我們使用中心大樓的研究室的委員人數最多助理也最多經常要去接觸的國會連任人也最頻繁這麼一棟立法院的大樓可以說使用人數最多的使用了三座電梯先不提之前發生的安全問題他連運載的智慧調度都幾乎沒有"},{"start":3312.006,"end":3330.424,"text":"之前總務處長跟我回報說什麼還要改基板喔還要幹嘛的囉我是覺得現在的時代了那另外呢另外我有提到說空調的節電功能其實之前我們看到不只只有立法院考試院也好監察院也好這些"},{"start":3332.226,"end":3345.033,"text":"現馬機關因為當時新建的聽設看起來外觀宏偉其實呢內部的設備都非常成就那這個節電尤其是空調他一定有能水主機有的其他的"},{"start":3346.531,"end":3373.708,"text":"五院其他的各院能水主機用了20幾年要更新我們委員都還特別關切這些契約的內容有沒有達到這個效益我們自己立法院我們的空調主機有沒有這樣的一個節電功能有沒有充分運用能水主機讓我們達到節電的效果反而當我們去刮別人的鬍子的時候自己有沒有刮乾淨我也覺得汗顏"},{"start":3374.989,"end":3386.909,"text":"同樣的憲法機關5院之一其他各院的能水主機空調的要更新我們委員審得非常詳細還要求看"},{"start":3388.762,"end":3404.395,"text":"每年的節能、修繕有沒有達到效果花這筆錢有沒有把從電費省的省下來我們這裡總務處我們算很客氣了你們自己寫、執筆寫的就寫個主題而已我這裡面沒有要求你們要提出說過去我們立法院空調設備"},{"start":3409.076,"end":3425.135,"text":"因為能水主機的效能到底我們用了多少電有沒有浪費那如果要求你們更新要花多少錢我們目前的養護契約有沒有拿出來檢視這個呢我們都是原則性的要求而已"},{"start":3425.876,"end":3440.35,"text":"沒有細項的要求我們立法院把這些東西主義的點出來算是呢這個言以待人寬以慮己我們都覺得不太好意思講所以我這個主決議算是給我們立法院一個"},{"start":3441.391,"end":3468.38,"text":"很包容的很寬容的讓你們來寫寫出來之後我會再對應我們立法院審其他的5院其他的5院到底我們對人家的要求跟對自己的要求會有多大落差所以我希望齁秘書長請你們要下筆之前要寫這個書面報告啊去看一看其他各院要應付我們本院委員的審查要求的詳細程度不要差太多啦"},{"start":3470.269,"end":3480.667,"text":"人家給我們的報告我要收到一千二千 交給我們的報告寫到非常的清楚我們寫的報告如果只有寥寥草草的幾行 這個拿去明年度預算審查"},{"start":3481.772,"end":3510.281,"text":"就很難看了所以我這個是好意我要告訴你我們在這個本委員會我們審議的有其他憲法機關的其他五院之一的人家的能水主機要換23年要更新我們這邊要求很多要求很多的人家也照辦了那現在我們自己很原則性的讓你們自己寫你們的書面報告先去看人家寫到多細寫出來的細目詳細的程度該有的項目該有的內容不要少"},{"start":3511.101,"end":3536.81,"text":"不然的話明年度我們審預算的時候我們把你們提出來書面報告跟其他五院的更換能水主機空調線能改善的人家提的報告拿出來比較一下會怕不好看所以我為什麼特別跟主席說這一個提案我可以改成書面改成組決議我也只有請你們提書面報告內容也只是說希望你們的電梯要有智能運載哪一座群閒樓"},{"start":3538.786,"end":3550.404,"text":"群仙樓的電梯啊如果有去搭啦像我們當召委以前我在財政委員會那個8點50的尖峰滿載啊尤其是財政委員會9樓官員列席的很多"},{"start":3551.923,"end":3570.429,"text":"他那邊排隊啊等那三部電梯有一部電梯不知道是腦袋怎麼特別笨另外兩台叫都可以叫得下來那一台就微波不動這個我問過了總務處的處長他說那一台的確比較笨因為他電腦棄板呢就是那樣的設計那我是覺得呢"},{"start":3571.553,"end":3597.724,"text":"一個立法院作為全國本身自我要作為全國機關的楷模我們的這些效能要提高從這些很基本的配置電梯空調空調節電節能啊那麼電梯呢要智慧運載我們就看很多民間的企業大樓啊沒有像我們立法院這樣子的三台電梯各走各的真的讓我們已經來立法院這麼久了發現說"},{"start":3599.504,"end":3617.674,"text":"10年一個世代居然進步這麼緩慢所以這個部分就特別的請第三案跟第八案秘書長再做個承諾那我覺得第二案吳思耀委員跟第五案吳思耀委員部分他的凍結只要你交個書面報告沒有要痛又死的凍之我是覺得秘書長就承擔下來吧"},{"start":3619.597,"end":3632.708,"text":"謝謝,大概先從第8案再做一個簡單的報告,因為時間關係,剛才中委員所提的,我們會從公務員所提的公報中委員所提的各點"},{"start":3634.249,"end":3641.475,"text":"在在我們跟總務處在演繹的時候他有四個方案那就是中間大樓那剛才提的這個群青樓總務處長也跟我報告過啦在剛才中央委員所提的所以在"},{"start":3648.92,"end":3662.439,"text":"既然我們改為主決議我非常謝謝,那我們一定照你的意思會很落實的再去做檢討,尤其這個安全,韓院長來以後一直責成這副秘書長跟總務處"},{"start":3664.923,"end":3686.032,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":3686.132,"end":3712.824,"text":"至於這個說凍結三個月跟我們寫報告來我自己會理解同意後死的凍結那是另外一層啦但是這一個凍結如果是說因為剛才特別跟委員的提案前我是非常尊重啦非常尊重我自己在議會機關那麼久只不過是說如果我們做得到是不是一定要寫凍結幾個月那除了那一個是很特殊的"},{"start":3713.604,"end":3722.871,"text":"特殊的說有特別的提了一個要求比如9月2日黃國昌委員所提的國際事務會這個提的時候他有特別就位公開的一個情形那動輒我們必須在需要再去考慮在演繹當中這個動作我可能就比較會尊重就比如說主席裡面有提了100萬"},{"start":3737.961,"end":3752.589,"text":"所以這個本身倒不是這種情形的話是不是能夠給命表裡面大概雖然是寫這樣的情況是不是也是給改革一個決議讓我們去處理如果委員提案權堅持這樣我也沒有說一定會怎麼樣不可這是行政命表的一個立場謝謝好謝謝那翁委員"},{"start":3776.128,"end":3802.122,"text":"針對541委員所提出的這個第二案那看起來五委員的意思是想要在擴編公費助理費用嗎因為五委員在他的提案裡面他是有講到就是說因應科技的浪潮網路新媒體的興起所以呢委員跟黨團都要積極的網羅新媒體人才要做影音啊短片做圖卡"},{"start":3802.802,"end":3826.136,"text":"那麼可是從他的這個提案裡面看不出來他真正的用意是什麼是希望這個立法院未來要再提高公費助理的費用還是說是就是要將公費助理的這個聘任制度變得更彈性是變多可以拚兼任呢還是"},{"start":3830.239,"end":3846.252,"text":"我看法是說他大概是認為說以後應該要開放讓立法院也可以聘這網路小編那這網路小編其實每個委員其實現在都可以透過自己的專任助理也可以去聘有這些影音人才所以就他這個提案來講"},{"start":3847.844,"end":3868.131,"text":"坦白說我看不出來他的目的是什麼如果是要提高公費助理費用的話那其實可以建議應該是要由這個委員由吳四堯委員他自己要主動提修法要修法要這個修改我們現在立法院公費助理的費用表"},{"start":3869.321,"end":3880.912,"text":"那麼如果說是要放寬要多拼多提高多費助理的原額的話其實也是要修法那麼因此的就這個議題來講要去凍結立法院100萬"},{"start":3885.185,"end":3903.193,"text":"我個人認為其實沒有什麼太多的道理這意思是說要叫立法院要提修法嗎其實委員自己就可以提了啦那當然就是這個議題是可以檢討啦我記得我們在經費結合委員會的時候其實有提出來那所以我的想法是說是不是"},{"start":3904.383,"end":3912.815,"text":"可以在這個案子上面就是不要凍結100萬但是也可以請立法院秘書長這邊就這個議題再提個延期報告"},{"start":3916.622,"end":3934.611,"text":"對事實上因為這個真的不是立法院這裡可以去智慧這還是涉及到修法的問題所以呢如果說像鍾委員鍾嘉斌委員吳思堯委員你們是支持這樣子的一個提案的話我認為說可以主動修法因為我也支持到時候可以找我來連署好不好好謝謝還有另外一個就是剛剛鍾委員講的"},{"start":3942.475,"end":3967.133,"text":"這要補助我們立法委員的職員技工等等這些教育補助這個其實也是涉及到修法的問題因為您剛剛有提到對就目前的全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點他的確他是給的是具有軍公教的身份的人他才有這樣的一個福利因為我們還是有繳什麼退府費啊等等這些費用在裡面"},{"start":3967.933,"end":3991.892,"text":"所以如果說今天是要將立法院的助理技工還有職員等等要有這樣的補助的話要含公費助理要把這些公費助理的補助要納在這個立法院的這個教育補助裡面我認為其實不適合而且他們可能還更應該是需要適用勞基法吧"},{"start":3993.701,"end":3994.142,"text":"中委員"},{"start":4016.646,"end":4043.188,"text":"謝謝我們終於很開心我們在司法及法制委員會能夠針對自己最立法院最切身的事情大家很理性的來溝通那謝謝剛剛問員的指教因為講到我的第三案我還是要說明一下因為怕有些認知上的誤解原來的第三案我已經同意改為主決議其實這裡面所提到的原來全國軍公教員工待遇自己要點的副表9子女教育補助表的規定"},{"start":4044.389,"end":4065.839,"text":"目前誰享有這些待遇呢?立法委員本身,你可以請職員教育職員包括我們的公務人員、技工、工友這也包含了但你想想看立法院的工作人員有這麼多都是領國家的興奉包括立委包括職員包括"},{"start":4066.886,"end":4069.227,"text":"同樣支持我們國家的立法工作同樣支持我們國家的立法工作"},{"start":4095.017,"end":4117.309,"text":"公務預算編列的待遇那公費助理也是領我們公費預算編列的待遇啊可是他們的主理不能領那個教育補助啊那因為這樣的確有法制向我們考量到底要不要修法我剛也說了也還是立法院有沒有什麼方式我們就可以不受到這個自己要點的規定我們可以另外在我們的預算的用途別當中予以擴充"},{"start":4118.089,"end":4140.335,"text":"要經過什麼樣的法制程序那請他們研擬一個書面報告所以就是也跟公務員的意思相去不遠只是說我沒有設定一定要修法才能領說不定秘書長很厲害找出一個不用修法我們就可以在既有的法制的之下就把它列為公會助理的待遇的一部分來致用這是第一個"},{"start":4141.311,"end":4153.459,"text":"那至於那個這個剛剛秘書長有提到說三個月秘書長這個您看清楚喔不是叫你三個月後才能提書面報告時的動作欸三個月內"},{"start":4155.339,"end":4174.315,"text":"您要是2月1日就提出面報告,2月1日就動輸啦,所以這個現在今天才12月19日嘛,今天12月19日嘛,您內容已經很清楚給您了明年度還沒開始,新的會計年度預算年度還沒開始,那如果您都把這樣的想法已經都準備好了"},{"start":4175.775,"end":4196.061,"text":"會計年度預算年度一開始你送到我們委員會來完全幾乎有動沒動幾乎差別不大那你既然尊重我們委員的一個論述我是覺得這一點實質上差別有限就不用太堅持反正內容上我們翁委員指導了嘛要寫哪些報告內容翁委員指導好不好"},{"start":4197.326,"end":4220.931,"text":"我剛已經說過尊重委員提案我沒有說很堅持我剛已經說過好那這樣我這樣算起來這一幕凍結的部分是總數是250萬那民主黨這邊有沒有一個可以接受就是說協商之後大家可以接受的凍結的數字那因為像各委員之間也許是能接受雙方就能夠協調成立"},{"start":4225.058,"end":4239.014,"text":"議員提案的權我沒有特別意見就凍結多少我們就配合會員你要多少錢是不是要總數嗎案的部分是有要凍結嗎我的建議是說"},{"start":4240.748,"end":4241.489,"text":"同樣的題目我們這幾天是討論過"},{"start":4268.366,"end":4291.698,"text":"這個時候就剛好大家的位置對調了呢?我們就說書面報告時的動資其實對於提案人對於預算機關本身都是大家可以接受的但是如果審預算的時候你的凍結預算下提書面報告經同意加這三個字整個效果就不同了所以請翁委員再看一下沒有寫經同意喔"},{"start":4292.838,"end":4314.085,"text":"我跟中委員的意見不一樣有沒有經同意或什麼都不重要重要是說你們現在這個提案看起來基本上並不是立法院這邊可以做而且不清楚你到底的目的是要求的是要擴編是要擴編公費助理費用嗎還是要擴編原額對您自己看這個所以我認為說其實五委員這裡講的這個凍結100萬"},{"start":4334.536,"end":4347.964,"text":"這一幕是不是就在200萬以下就凍結200萬是不是可以請委員支持那這樣齁是不是各位委員是不是同意就是說本幕就是合併凍結200萬看看大家"},{"start":4351.36,"end":4378.545,"text":"能不能接受?可以嗎?好那在場的委員有沒有不同意見?好那如果沒有的話那第一幕一般行政提案案號第一到第九然後領這邊兩案測案好沒問題第一到第九測案第一九案測案"},{"start":4379.96,"end":4406.453,"text":"然後第3478改為主決議然後除以上個案外本幕合併凍結200萬元並針對各凍結提案之要求依審查會決議提出書面報告後使得動之接著處理第二幕委員問政業務提案案號第10案第11案那我們請提案"},{"start":4410.472,"end":4416.778,"text":"我們請提案委員吳思瑤說明中委也要幫忙他"},{"start":4418.973,"end":4441.217,"text":"那是這樣我們這裡面提到了我們因為立法院組織法規定的依其勞動基礎法規定的相關費用由預勞院編列預算支應那因為這裡面勞基法的38條勞工在同一僱主或事業單位繼續工作滿一定年期要給特別休假那當中還有未休的要發給工資那麼這個從106年到現在可是這個"},{"start":4448.138,"end":4461.477,"text":"其實未來立法院要書寫的時候其實跟剛剛第二案我們要求立法院進行檢討提出的說明就更聚焦在什麼聚焦在我們公費助理的勞動權益"},{"start":4463.178,"end":4483.292,"text":"因為我們說對公衛助理的預算編列是依法可是這個法它並沒有隨著勞動基準法的修訂在跟著修訂所以它的額數就變成聞風不動我這樣講應該其實我們在場的助理朋友都心有戚戚焉"},{"start":4484.173,"end":4495.999,"text":"我們今天不是在爭說公費助理的額度我們要修法讓他擴大看是編制增加還是額數擴大而是說縱使是維持原來的額數"},{"start":4497.722,"end":4501.403,"text":"立法院第116年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院第126年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":4518.567,"end":4519.188,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4543.567,"end":4546.909,"text":"同時參酌立法院組織法第32條也參討我們勞基法第38條在這個預算上怎麼樣可以靈活的去因應其他相關勞動權益法令的優化而能夠同時的與時俱進所以我想這個部分因為這個洞解是只有寫什麼提出面報告時的洞知也是跟貼案一樣你只要把你們的做法寫出來"},{"start":4566.801,"end":4579.137,"text":"你要2月1號交券根本那個凍結的效力根本沒有影響到我們預算的支應所以也在這裡跟委員會做個說明好謝謝那我們請黃國昌委員做提案說明"},{"start":4580.975,"end":4606.961,"text":"謝謝主席第11案我所提的案子是今年2月1號新的國會的時候我們有邀請兩大黨立法院政府院長擬參選人到臺灣民眾黨團來拜會那個時候我們提一個一個重要的訴求就是希望在立法院相關經費的使用上必須要公開透明建立陽光國會"},{"start":4608.502,"end":4620.189,"text":"因此我看到我們自己的國會交流事務的經費跟去年比起來大概多了2000多萬當然我們"},{"start":4621.687,"end":4649.521,"text":"立法院的統人有來說明說好像我們爭取到了一個很重要的會議在國會外交上的主辦所以有這樣經費的增加但我們還是希望說能夠去貫徹這樣子的一個原則就是說這個錢到底是怎麼花的那你還是要一條一條比較公開透明的列出來讓全體的納稅人都有監督的可能性"},{"start":4650.541,"end":4679.118,"text":"那來說明的時候我有聽到說好像有一些牽涉到的比較敏感外交上面的事物恐怕沒有辦法百分之百都這樣做那我基本上也尊重我的意思是說什麼時候是跟因為不管是我們自己還是跟外交部合作有比較機敏性的認為不宜公開的那你們到時候揭露的方式"},{"start":4679.958,"end":4698.628,"text":"用密件的方式給各個委員但是其他的部分我認為還是要公開你說立委、組團去歐洲去美洲隨便去哪裡都可以我沒有說這樣的錢"},{"start":4700.353,"end":4700.553,"text":"總召委員"},{"start":4725.47,"end":4746.416,"text":"這個只要是站在我們監督公開揭露這樣的原則我都是支持的所以對於本案我也是希望待會我們秘書長的說明要特別的清楚因為在立法院這9年來個人以委員的身份不管是用次團的方式我們去做其他的國會交流"},{"start":4747.423,"end":4759.15,"text":"用的經費就是編給每個委員一年10萬元的交流經費而已就是這些所以為什麼會有新的年度增加了兩三千萬"},{"start":4760.356,"end":4788.993,"text":"我們這10萬元是完全無面目動的那我這邊特別要請民主黨說清楚因為外界看到這樣的一個提出來的質疑他會說哦那麼立法院開始去查啦立法院到底是哪些委員經常在從事國會交流的活動一查中嘉賓委員哦經常這些新南向國家他都有去很抱歉我們都是用自己那10萬元一年的額度"},{"start":4789.915,"end":4814.66,"text":"我們不曾是使用過這個所謂的重要訪兵接待有啦韓院長自從他上任以來有重要訪兵來訪我們基於對手國是我們的交流對象我們會去陪同我也不過喝了一杯咖啡吃了一個cake我不曉得這個算不算在那個增加的國際交流訪兵接待的經費當中如果是有那我承認我有使用到一點點"},{"start":4815.899,"end":4842.412,"text":"那麼跨國國會交流論壇目前為止如果是這樣的交流論壇過去在第9屆第10屆曾經有國際組織國會組織邀請之前不管是蘇院長還是游院長那個時候也是由院長邀集各黨團那麼依政黨的期次比例推薦委員來參加的那也是公開的那如果要把那個公開我覺得最好"},{"start":4843.328,"end":4871.418,"text":"接下來國會聯誼會組團出訪這個我就很納悶了我知道有時候我們有看到在外交國防委員會因為他們基於他們委員會的業務屬性他們會有到其他國家去進行他們委員會的業務那那個經費是不是從這裡來的我也不清楚但是至少本期我自有參加擔任國會議員做立法委員參與國會交流以來不曾有過"},{"start":4872.458,"end":4887.975,"text":"所以待會請秘書長特別說明剛剛提案委員所提到的較廣年度增加的這些額度是誰在致用是身為立法院的代表韓院長基於接待國外來的國會議員的訪兵"},{"start":4889.597,"end":4913.842,"text":"或者說韓院長要率團去做回訪人家國會議長來我們要國會議長去是誰在使用那麼委員的各次級的國會聯誼會組團出國有沒有在韓院長任內就動之了可能這筆經費但是因為可能不夠你們要增加那是怎麼使用韓院長把這樣的一個國會交流經費"},{"start":4916.175,"end":4931.938,"text":"委給哪些國家之間的國會交流來使用我也很好奇所以我聽來看來看去這邊寫出來的好像都是以韓院長院長的職權可以去使用的"},{"start":4933.182,"end":4949.507,"text":"至於有沒有是屬於委員分配給委員額度的有沒有在這個增加的範圍內請一併說明這樣外界會誤解以為委員經常在其他國家看到我們的臉書我們的描述我們經常去其他國家為了推動"},{"start":4951.267,"end":4976.432,"text":"國會外交我們去關心那邊的僑胞關心那邊的台商看到我們出現在國際場合好像次數很頻繁那麼開始懷疑說這個是不是都是用我們立法院增加因為太頻繁了所以呢要大幅的擴充預算是投射在我們委員的使用身上還是放在院長的身上這一點請秘書長要充分的說明我們"},{"start":4977.552,"end":4986.994,"text":"到目前為止我每個年度來申請的就是立法院給的固定額度那個額度有沒有增加也請讓我們明白"},{"start":4987.828,"end":4997.294,"text":"我簡單說明一下再請這一個我們國際事務處副處長戴維再補詳細說明首先第10案裡面這一個勞基法的32條的規範這個是跟剛才在第2案之間的關係所以我想是說這一個100萬是不是我就改為主決議因為跟第2案相關性所以我認為是不是"},{"start":5016.846,"end":5016.866,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":5036.491,"end":5063.087,"text":"醫療計劃所規定的相關會用所以有相關性所以是不是這一個可以把它改為主決議是不是請各位委員支持的至於第11案方國昌所提的這一個案當時我請他們去報告的時候是因為當時在院長會長選舉因為我還沒到立法院來其實我有在看一些新聞因為當時的兩個候選人都有到民眾黨去要求經費公開"},{"start":5065.108,"end":5081.736,"text":"在這個基於這個原則上所以當時他們來跟我報告的時候我說這一個基於經會公開當時有這個一個承諾因為我自己來講我當時在當考試委員在院會所做的承諾我不教書我就六年我從來不去教書這個是很"},{"start":5083.837,"end":5085.539,"text":"立法院總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分"},{"start":5110.592,"end":5119.822,"text":"原來每年的收支每年兩次一次是16萬後來改到10萬所以現在一年是20萬所以這邊6759當中就有2260萬是原來的情況"},{"start":5129.652,"end":5155.023,"text":"對 那個是委員個人的啦我是這樣說那另外一個是APPU這一個裡面有1000萬因為這一次我們變了主辦國這一次因為去年在今天在日本裡面我們爭取到主辦國啦這APPU在我個人在當會面場的第一次的APPU是我負責的啦所以我說這個是等於是國際上的一個關係他的這一個秘書是在日本"},{"start":5156.023,"end":5180.49,"text":"所以他們也有規劃的這一個很詳細的規劃給我看過啦 除非當天因為時間關係我副理長是沒有 因為我當天身體有點不太舒服是也經過同意 所以副理長當時他可能沒看到那個規劃的計畫 所以當時沒有答的很清楚啦 所以這個裡面的APPU我是希望各位委員能夠支持這一千萬大概在這個"},{"start":5182.891,"end":5183.031,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":5212.911,"end":5230.302,"text":"所以他們從這邊去規劃到一千萬來所以這一個裡面當時是我所了解是這樣那因為這一次有增加到2599當中就要扣除這一千萬所以增加了1599但是國際事務處這一次裡面有加了那一個五百萬就剛才鍾委員所提的現在有90個團90個團這一個次級的團包括你也有組成幾個團嗎有有有"},{"start":5243.897,"end":5258.578,"text":"民主黨講清楚齁 我出國組團我沒有用茉莉委員的錢齁 我要報告就是這個五百萬奔的時候是在有90個團所以他們才會預計明年度去奔的這個五百萬因為這是明年度用的嘛"},{"start":5261.118,"end":5261.178,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":5278.124,"end":5305.963,"text":"那中委我等一下再請我們副處長再跟比較細的這細節性跟大家報告以後然後再由這一個會來做決定這一個是要讓這個本來是很公開化的東西大概會用編制的情形我所初步了解是大概這樣是不是我可以請楊副處長再細的報告一下可以不可以請主席是不是可以那中委是我們先讓那個報告對喔副處長比較清楚的細節性的麻煩請說"},{"start":5310.847,"end":5329.569,"text":"謝謝委員對國際事務的關心我們今年的國際事務費用確實增略了2599萬真的相對於去年是增加蠻多的跟委員報告就是說去年的話我們可能主要委員的部分就是剛剛委員提到的一年"},{"start":5330.49,"end":5356.144,"text":"一年10萬的部分那這是2260然後國際慶典會議互訪的部分是2000萬那這部分齁過去這2000萬就包含了外賓接待還有比如說聯誼會的出訪還有首長率領跨黨派的委員出訪這些都是過去就混用那我們今年希望"},{"start":5356.544,"end":5376.067,"text":"議員會議員"},{"start":5376.267,"end":5403.503,"text":"跟委員補充說明一下我們是預估大概50團那一團大概10萬10萬元的費用那因為如果委員出訪的時候有時候再加上外交部會協助那這部分所以我們在COVID-19那個過後其實互訪的機會大增然後這個部分我們就是說配合國際的情勢所以也鼓勵委員用聯誼會的名義來出訪"},{"start":5404.904,"end":5430.194,"text":"所以增列500萬那這個是單獨編列然後另外在那個我們在接待外邊的部分我們增列了999萬那這部分齁這最主要就是說比如說餐費其實我們都希望委員熱情來參加我們的這個外邊接待的活動所以我們每一個場次如果有"},{"start":5430.674,"end":5448.097,"text":"約399,000"},{"start":5448.524,"end":5474.07,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5474.97,"end":5501.902,"text":"國會外交的成果做一些文宣那這部分有999萬那這樣的話所以那在APPU的部分就是跨國國會跨國國會交流論壇的這個部分因為我們爭取到APPU的主辦權那明年的話我會在台灣舉辦那這也是台灣我們立法院唯一用"},{"start":5503.202,"end":5528.479,"text":"會員國的身份來加入的一個國際組織所以也是很請各位委員來支持那這一千萬的編列大概首先當然主要還是說各國政要還有國會議員他們的機票交通的一些費用住宿的費用還有場地的活動費那因為到時候的人數跟規模可能都是"},{"start":5529.419,"end":5544.109,"text":"會比以往再多很多所以我們這次是用100人次來計算那跟委員報告所以這個部分才會編列1000萬而且他是一次性的費用然後跟委員再補充說明一下因為那個"},{"start":5545.249,"end":5559.341,"text":"他這個國際會議是用日本跟各個會員國來輪流主辦的方式所以我們明年就是由台灣來承辦那以上先報告"},{"start":5560.282,"end":5562.783,"text":"稍後稍後稍後稍後稍後稍後稍後稍"},{"start":5586.289,"end":5606.737,"text":"例子細上我大概會很詳細的報告這一個國際書會用那是不是就是那個第11案的這第11案就是100萬就留著那第10案這邊因為他跟第2案有相關性是不是這個就用決議"},{"start":5608.878,"end":5635.72,"text":"讓我們提出報告這一百萬就不要處理是不是可以這樣接受?因為跟第二案有關看總統的意思其實不是看我的意思因為剛剛從我們秘書長跟我們國際事務處的處長副處長的說明那個我先不好意思國際事務處是去年才成立的去年才成立的所以副處長也是今年才到任"},{"start":5636.892,"end":5643.958,"text":"去年就到任了嘛所以你有你今年只執行過去年編列的預算所以你基於去年編列預算執行去年編列預算的經驗所以剛剛講的那500萬是去年"},{"start":5649.775,"end":5679.149,"text":"今年沒有編的嘛對不對是去年有沒有編沒有嘛對要講清楚啊主席他說的這500萬要促進國會交流的這500萬單獨編列的今年沒有去年也沒有我們國際事務處去年才成立那我是很肯定立法院成立國際事務處這是第一任院長不管黨派他們投入國會外交提升台灣的國際地位及能見度我們全力支持"},{"start":5680.191,"end":5706.295,"text":"所以不因為哪個黨派當院長我們對於中華民國立法院推動國外交我們有任何的保留所以我們支持成立國際事務處我們也支持國際事務處基於促進台灣的國際外交跟能見度編列相關預算我們核實我們用力來推動在有限的機會我們努力去推動但是剛剛報告的內容是明年才開始的"},{"start":5706.815,"end":5717.06,"text":"今年以前沒有編列過,這一點要特別釐清,因為連副處長都是去年成立後才來的,您剛講那個是APPU,好像是泛太平洋島與國家國會聯誼會"},{"start":5724.034,"end":5746.729,"text":"論壇那個是我在第9屆的時候蘇嘉全院長的時候的確他的做法你要講要講得清楚明白他的發起地主國是日本一年在日本一年就在其他的會員國過去我們要不知道日本去參加要不到日本以外的其他島國去參加我個人只有參加過一次是到日本那一次"},{"start":5747.569,"end":5758.219,"text":"那一次蘇院長代團我還記得很深刻那時候現任監察院副院長李鴻元副院長那時候是副團長他那時候是副團長他還自掏腰包請團員去用餐"},{"start":5770.083,"end":5786.901,"text":"所以我要說明的其實在台灣我們推動國會外交其實大家都是用心竭力雖然預算編列有限但是都願意誠心的去推動那我們聽到明年有爭取到在台灣今年在日本嘛明年在台灣"},{"start":5787.681,"end":5814.883,"text":"作為替主國,我們為了讓來的其他的會員國能夠有感受到台灣在國會交流上的重視我是支持這個預算應該要給他足夠的預算所以如果你們編的這個額度我絕對支持所以呢這個部分我絕對不會認為要有所的一個剪裂或凍結但是因為原提案人本案的提案人提到的是說因為擔心到還有其他"},{"start":5816.411,"end":5838.745,"text":"各政黨的委員所組成的各種國會交流聯誼會那因為你們明年開始多編了五百萬我就很好奇我以前從來沒有機會被告知要申請過啊那為什麼現在這個五百萬人家都問我啊說你這個宗教兵常常去啊你是不是有用到啊一頭霧水那我這樣跟請待會副處長可以再說明到目前為止我們立法委員去做這個國會交流"},{"start":5840.205,"end":5856.474,"text":"我們可以跟院長他可以主宰的院長可以主導的預算當中我們申請了什麼我告訴你副處長你還不曉得我們可以申請什麼院長有一筆錢他可以編製作紀念品紀念品有兩個用途一個是來訪的來賓國會議員我們送給他帶回去"},{"start":5859.881,"end":5888.297,"text":"一種是我們委員去出訪我們來跟院長申請我要送給國會議員我要寫名冊我領一個我們立法院專門特製的這樣的紀念品我帶去那個國家送給那個國會議員這個禮品費是編在這個項目之下由院長來支用而我們國會議員我們要去國會交流我們要來申請的可能副處長還不知道我不知道你知不知道我們是這樣可以申請的"},{"start":5889.031,"end":5902.93,"text":"所以我要跟秘書長說啊秘書長您是老經驗的你也在立法院服務過像這些我們有利於立法院不只是國內立法國外外交很重要這些推動的工作你們對外要說明清楚所以我很支持說"},{"start":5904.509,"end":5927.692,"text":"預算的部分我沒有意見但是呢有委員提案要求有書面報告這些要一五一十的向社會公開免得社會用有色的眼光在看待我們國會我們委員去做國會外交不要讓這些努力被抹殺我是完全支持這個那至於回過頭來說到那個我們吳思耀吳委員的第10案我要說明一下因為剛剛聽說你的答覆"},{"start":5929.246,"end":5949.1,"text":"如果你願意這個手冊翻一下我就是因為聽了你答覆我反而擔心你有誤解我們立法院組織法第32條分成三項第一項他說明立法院得知工會助理他的助理費可以依辦公室務然後依勞動基準法所規定的相關費用由立法院編列預算"},{"start":5950.601,"end":5969.161,"text":"所以這個助理費它的編列其實它有加上要根據勞動基礎法的規定那如果當勞動基礎法有更新有提升那麼這個就要聯動去處理我們看第二項 第二項寫前項的立法委員辦公室等必要費用之項目標準如附表從102年開始實施"},{"start":5971.523,"end":5999.284,"text":"這裡面包括什麼呢?包括立法院地方問證去租用服務處的辦公室的租金這都在102年的時候就到現在了但是剛剛我們吳氏雅委員所提供的是勞基法106年後有新的規定有新的規定之後你根據第一項你就應該要去調整付表的內容這是不帶我們修法就要處理的我再講一次第一項就告訴你公費助理的待遇薪資"},{"start":5999.864,"end":6004.368,"text":"立法院因每年編列預算補助工會助理實施健康檢查及文康活動只有兩個項目健康檢查及文康活動是不是這樣"},{"start":6024.545,"end":6045.261,"text":"那因此剛剛吳志耀委員的第二案他是認為什麼我的那個案子子女教育補助那個如果認真來講如果要修法要列在我們的第三項那不修法有沒有可能方式處理我們就是我剛剛那一案子就是要請你們提書面報告用主決的方式至於說第三項它的日期是114年實施啊"},{"start":6047.934,"end":6067.779,"text":"所以從114年之後我們立法院對未來可以對什麼今年是113年嘛明年開始我們的助理呢可以有什麼健康檢查可以有文康活動但是呢有沒有可以包含子女的教育補助我不知道所以我的提案是請你們寫個書面報告"},{"start":6068.999,"end":6097.384,"text":"那至於吳世耀委員的第10案他是要什麼是根據第一項勞基法的變動勞基法是106年修的這個副表是什麼102年編制的我怕秘書長有誤會所以特別的強調不能並同第二案第二案是第二案我的教育補助會是另外一案這個又是勞基法又是另外一案那當然你們可以在書面報告的時候充分的就這不同的重點予以分別序名以上建議"},{"start":6098.925,"end":6115.575,"text":"主席我可以講兩分鐘好不好?簡單不要一分鐘我講講其實這個法規的規範在32條後面的護表那是9月立委當時的問題我不要再說明了至於這邊的一個涉及到的原因是在僱主事實"},{"start":6116.255,"end":6136.804,"text":"立法院還是立法委員那因為這就很漫長的這個說明我就不必再提所以我才敢說這個案本身因為106年那是僱主的問題的特修那你的僱主是立法委員還是僱主是立法院所以我才會說這一個跟第二案你如果編了一個經過"},{"start":6138.505,"end":6157.781,"text":"因為做了一個決議把那個助理費用拉高那自然就這裡就會解決掉至於第三案是我沒有在立法院的時間這個要點我都看過了一個就是一個這個健康檢查會跟這個公衛助理的活動後面會有很多的一個委員提要提的一些主決議這是我等一下再講"},{"start":6160.063,"end":6175.518,"text":"所以如果說委員是很堅持這案還是要這樣處理我沒有意見只不過是這裡面的凍結是工會助理的錢這要必須跟必須要講明這個錢動用是在工會助理倒不是一般行政的費用這樣讓與會委員瞭解以上好謝謝那這樣啦齁"},{"start":6181.372,"end":6199.611,"text":"我想說合併啦,因為那個洪國昌委員提案的100的部分反而民主黨這就沒有意見嘛所以我們剛剛花很多時間其實在談沒有意見的部分那是不是我們就合併凍結,那看看什麼樣的數字這個立法院這邊可以接受,然後立委們也可以接受"},{"start":6200.342,"end":6200.362,"text":"黃委員"},{"start":6216.006,"end":6225.412,"text":"律師長我要跟你確認你剛提的應該跟我第11案沒有關係吧我11案凍結的是國會交流事務嗎對沒有關係因為我要凍的是國會交流事務裡面的100萬不是公費住宅的100萬這個話要講清楚那翁委員"},{"start":6235.598,"end":6241.1,"text":"是,因為剛剛那個秘書長講到重點,這個凍結是凍結的是公費助理的這個費用可是不管是剛剛講的第二案或是現在講的第十案,就都是胡適堯委員這邊提出的他還是涉及到就是公費助理的雇主是誰嗎?這已經是一個長年以來的問題了"},{"start":6256.467,"end":6270.32,"text":"中委員您在立法院已經擔任了這麼久的委員應該知道說這個問題是立法院可以解決的嗎對你現在所謂的這個特休換取工資到底是誰去可以認定"},{"start":6272.117,"end":6289.082,"text":"這個助理他有沒有這個加班或者說有沒有什麼特休假這都是由立法委員自己來認定的對然後那你現在這裡的要擴充他還是要回到原來的那個問題點要不然就是修復表"},{"start":6291.75,"end":6313.556,"text":"提高公費助理的費用,讓立法委員們有更多的錢可以去支用。所以其實我看這兩個案子,講來講去就是希望能夠提高公費助理的聘募的費用。那如果是這樣的話,就不如你們就大大方方提案,我們就從現在40幾萬又增加到50幾萬。"},{"start":6317.017,"end":6334.213,"text":"對,否則的話現在就是強人所難讓立法院去提這樣的預算,他們依法又不能提案對這個是我認為說其實吳聖堯委員跟鍾嘉斌委員在寫這兩個案子的時候好像也沒有把相關的法規弄清楚然後一直要求"},{"start":6339.908,"end":6355.194,"text":"我的案子跟這案子有什麼關係?我不是要案子,是因為鍾嘉斌委員您剛剛代替他們兩位講,帶這兩個案子講對,然後這個事實上就是修副表嘛對,回到我們在講就是修副表啊,那你們就可以提案修啊"},{"start":6361.26,"end":6379.131,"text":"我們真的希望委員發言前先把來龍去脈釐清香港秘書長就很誠意他又針對我們組織法一條一項一項來說明那我想這樣子啦其實呢主席待會要做一個處理了啦那我只是看到說第11案黃總召所提的案子我們秘書長惡話不說好"},{"start":6381.226,"end":6381.446,"text":"同樣凍結一百萬"},{"start":6414.748,"end":6427.394,"text":"錯覺 錯 這個凍結提出書面報紙的凍資剛已經說明了嘛 你如果2月1號送來根本凍不到嘛 但是你們硬是要這樣講 那好我就具體提議第10案100萬 第11案100萬 你們已經接受了 那我建議呢 第二幕 全幕凍200萬"},{"start":6439.707,"end":6440.674,"text":"好黃委員黃委員你你剛有舉手嗎?"},{"start":6444.196,"end":6470.79,"text":"我希望我的11案就是11案我不希望跟別人拼我先說明其他委員要提案我都尊重所以剛其他委員提的案子其實主席也聽得到我很少表示什麼樣的意見其他委員的提案我都尊重我其他委員的提案我真的沒有表示太強烈的意見因為其他委員個人委員他們想要達成的目的"},{"start":6471.67,"end":6483.571,"text":"那就看立法院這一邊他們整體的運作上是接受還是不接受但是我第11案的部分我不同意跟其他案例我先說明"},{"start":6486.038,"end":6491.743,"text":"我們就在預算審查就ok因為那個有關10案跟11案各100萬的部分現在民主黨這邊同意了"},{"start":6505.539,"end":6507.44,"text":"第二幕委員問政業務提案案號第10案第11案"},{"start":6539.563,"end":6544.427,"text":"本目合併凍結第10案100萬,第11案100萬並針對各凍結提案的要求依審查會決議提出書面報告後,使得凍支接著處理第三目議事業務,提案案號第12案至第14案"},{"start":6565.404,"end":6591.76,"text":"好那我們請提案的吳思堯委員那個說明好主席謝謝那我這邊12 13 14齁都是凍結案啦齁那其實呢我們這裡有看到齁第12案我想這裡面提到的就是我們關於立法院職權行使法還有我們相關的法案在審理當中你看這裡面所說的立法院組織法第三條"},{"start":6594.081,"end":6597.203,"text":"第14條秘書長應秉持院長之命,來指揮監督所屬委員。但是在看來我們第11屆第2會期有諸多的這些亂象,這個其實在上會期甚至在上一屆"},{"start":6612.692,"end":6634.347,"text":"類似的情況都是有發生所以我們希望秘書長可以乘院長之命好好地針對這些議事的精進提出個書面報告來這個相當的中性前面這些描述不管是法規執掌的描述還是現況的描述那最後的目的在第三段"},{"start":6634.907,"end":6657.119,"text":"就是希望說能夠秉持我們憲政與權力分立的原則,立法院就我們院會跟委員會失序的部分,我們來精進意識的處理。那尤其是現在有月型惡化的情況,過去在院會裡面上一屆或上上屆我有參與的經驗,那麼已經,我們已經想像說那已經是極限了。"},{"start":6658.735,"end":6684.471,"text":"那麼在議場內用鐵鏈把議場的門鎖起來那個至少在我們努力的其他黨的委員要進入議場開會至少還只是要排除這些器械物理性的就能夠進入最後還是終究能夠達成在議場內由不同黨派的議員不同意見的委員可以在一個議場有不同的意見聲音後討論或決定"},{"start":6686.252,"end":6702.363,"text":"但是到了本屆尤其是本會期尤其是星期一的時候已經發生了居然可以用各種的方式透明膠帶封門鐵門拉下來連樓梯間都進不來透過人強的方式選擇性的只讓他們認為能夠達成委員會開會的要件比如說我們委員會的職員來進入而最後進入到委員會的會場後"},{"start":6716.263,"end":6733.186,"text":"就可以鎖門關門一黨修法已經到達這個極致的程度是前所未有很難想像那再這樣下去一黨可以修法那就一黨可以修憲那就跟習近平中國人大有何兩樣"},{"start":6734.187,"end":6762.729,"text":"中國人民大會堂裏面難道可以容許不同意見的聲音出來嗎可以容許其他的意義分子進去開會嗎不可能嘛但是我們台灣的立法院不是的台灣的民主是我們珍貴的資產我們台灣之所以在現在COVID-19之後我們的國會外交國會交流為什麼這麼的頻繁許多其他的歐美民主陣營的國家的國會議員樂於來跟我們交流是因為他們看到了台灣在實現民主的"},{"start":6765.161,"end":6791.371,"text":"實踐上他們肯定包括我們在各種進步性的法案的推動他們也表示佩服我們在很多的進步性的立法是亞洲的第一名但是這樣的一個吸引其他民主國家來跟台灣做國會交流的情況卻在這本屆從上會期以降到前天星期一淋漓盡致接下來會到什麼情況我們很難想像"},{"start":6792.091,"end":6816.878,"text":"所以我們在進行預算審查的時候吳思堯委員的提案也是希望就書面的部分來進行一個檢討那麼縱使不管如何我們希望議事是中立的議事人員是中立的那麼不因為立法院各項委員的黨派分部而受到影響所以才會秉持著這樣的想法要請我們的立法院秘書長我們的"},{"start":6818.938,"end":6845.931,"text":"立法院的議事處能夠就這些議事的相關部分進行一個檢討提出來給委員會書面報告一樣我們都很客氣三個月內提出書面報告就可動之完全沒有要再經過討論同意沒有你們提出的意見我們全都予以尊重但是立法院本身我們要維持意識中立意識效率我們真的要深自檢討以上"},{"start":6848.251,"end":6849.292,"text":"好,翁委員我看到吳思瑤委員這個提案啊這是叫做賊喊抓賊啊這個而且打人的先打人的還在指責別人說是這個保護自己的這樣子的一個情況啊我們知道在"},{"start":6873.942,"end":6883.11,"text":"從立法院的這連續兩個會期在立法院造成衝突的然後破壞公務的都是民進黨委員啊"},{"start":6886.455,"end":6909.017,"text":"現在呢這個他們的破壞公務都還沒有賠償然後呢還要求說是叫立法院要來檢討相關的這個議事程序這是跟立法院的議事人員有關嗎這是立法委員自己本身的這行為有關吧自己就是這個行使暴力然後幾個譴責案然後也都沒有處理"},{"start":6910.868,"end":6931.912,"text":"然後現在在這個提案單上面寫的剛剛這個中委員有講講的是這個參委會發生了一些衝突那為什麼會發生這樣的一個衝突不就是因為民進黨委員不想要開會啊意識杯葛然後要去霸佔主席台那更何況當時這個拔麥克風的是誰是吳秉瑞委員欸"},{"start":6939.79,"end":6949.814,"text":"然後那這次在立法院的這個院會裡面然後拿著這個鋼杯保溫杯把桌面砸爛是誰?莊瑞雄委員然後之前這個破壞我們委員會的門然後半夜然後帶的人去把門偷開的這是黃捷委員"},{"start":6960.683,"end":6960.703,"text":"黃委員﹗"},{"start":6983.155,"end":7010.987,"text":"不同的政黨有議事攻防我基本上都尊重就各個政黨自己回去各自開記者會就好了你把現在在議事上面的思緒全部推給議事人員要他們去提什麼樣子的方案那簡直是莫名其妙我明確的講這個提案就是莫名其妙12案從頭念到尾"},{"start":7012.25,"end":7032.941,"text":"在指責誰?在指責韓國瑜院長在指責秘書長議事不中立之前晚上他跑到會議室裡面來躲在茶水間暴力攻擊他黨的委員你這些鍋全部都要拖到議事人員上喔我12案堅決反對啊就保留吧"},{"start":7043.445,"end":7070.47,"text":"民主黨有沒有什麼要補充的我沒辦法答因為這是國會的委員的意識行為我會變說明那這樣我想說大家意見不一致那就只能保留了那我們現在第13案麻煩對13案所以你現在要討論第13案對不對我們不是保留了嗎對對那現在是第13案就是吳思堯的這個案子嘛好請說"},{"start":7072.994,"end":7092.891,"text":"13案是這樣子13案因為我們立法院職權刑事法經過一個大幅的擴權雖然經過憲法法庭進行憲判後有違憲的部分都已經宣告了但是其他合憲的部分需要更進一步的細緻化的配套那這個部分我們在之前院內我們有多次的表達"},{"start":7093.832,"end":7122.041,"text":"但是呢在根據現有有限的立法院職權新法例子法第46條之二那麼各種的委員會啊雨後春筍一個一個成立那這個成立委員會要成立特別成立調查委員會只要過半數一瞬間就通過了但是接下來的事務是非常的龐雜先不論相關對應的配套單單舉例來說好了一個調查委員會要成立"},{"start":7123.237,"end":7126.464,"text":"那他成立之後他的委員的更換"},{"start":7127.834,"end":7157.114,"text":"到底是不是由黨團依法有需要就更換還是更換後還要回到院會去經過同意這個事情因為主席昨天在場的時候我們也討論過但我這裡不再細表免得我們主席心情不好我還是要說一下這為什麼會產生爭議我說爭議是很客氣的因為我認定瑕疵錯誤是很明顯的根據法條的解釋根本沒有所謂的一個"},{"start":7158.254,"end":7186.06,"text":"調查委員會成員由各黨團來指派是實際需要來更換到院會也只是個查照案居然在首次要選召委的當下能夠去強行的否定黨團他提出的一個更換人選那當然那如果想就下來那麼相關的配套都還沒有更具體的規範"},{"start":7187.476,"end":7210.349,"text":"那可能會造成大家這樣的認知認為說這個依法是不是這樣解釋有些困擾但是我這裡談的還不是一些法制面的一個布局還要談到什麼談到人力面的所以呢這裡面呢我們提到說如果調查還要去跑東跑西啊我們這裡面編列的預算實在是不足啊因為在編列這個預算的時候呢例子法到底"},{"start":7212.391,"end":7226.189,"text":"之二這些相關的委員會要成立多少恐怕當時編列預算的立法院我們的人員也不清楚但是我們還是一樣立法委員不得為增加支出之決議所以我們也不能說"},{"start":7228.031,"end":7241.11,"text":"你不要編太少了,但是這裡吳哲偉委員是說用凍結,那我覺得既然是認為經費編列可能不乎未來實際使用,那麼這裡我覺得以凍結不宜。這裡你改為主決議,我覺得這樣比較好。"},{"start":7242.512,"end":7269.009,"text":"所以本案我們是不是請我們秘書長這邊瞭解我們的本意我們覺得除了法規面配套的完備之外那麼如果因應未來立制法46號之二相關的委員會有那麼多的成立可能會增加很多的業務那這些業務增加的人力不能短期不能增加但是業務的費用的支應這些考察才屢廢"},{"start":7270.049,"end":7296.064,"text":"等等可能會增加那明年預算夠不夠用我們很擔心所以呢我們希望呢未雨綢繆立法院趕快就這個部分去做一個評估那我希望呢用個主決的方式來提醒立法院因應著立執法在擴權之後未違憲宣告的部分儘管配套相對應還不足但是已經有委員迫不及待的透過多數決議的方式要強令"},{"start":7296.724,"end":7320.319,"text":"我們的議事人員我們的工作人員配合去做這些調查那這時候應贈應阿的這些事務費用應該要予以事前就予以掌握那因為我們不能加預算那我只能說我們也不凍結那但是請改成主決議請立法院未予籌謀予以為評估提個書面報告或之類的好不好謝謝"},{"start":7321.804,"end":7343.111,"text":"尊重尊重照辦就改為其決議尊重照辦我想大家都不會有意見那第三改為其決議不過那個中召委這邊我們不要談昨天的事情因為我的個人是這樣國發基金那個我覺得我們就不要在這邊談但是我尊重你的發言機會但是我完全否定你發言的內容"},{"start":7345.412,"end":7368.823,"text":"主席我在講預算欸沒有你剛剛在講什麼你不要把大家當笨蛋好不好你剛才講完現在又要不認我跟你講這種出爾反爾我已經習慣了啦我覺得我的結論就是這樣我尊重各位的發言權利但是我完全否定你的發言內容不要各說各話你認為怎麼樣那是你的事你就自己去講你的好那我們現在審查第14案好啦第14案"},{"start":7377.204,"end":7398.328,"text":"中召委員第13案你要改主決議可是我現在有一個問題剛剛議事人員跟我說這個提案人跟聯署人都沒有你的名字我拿去給委員簽名好不好好可以嗎好那就這樣好那就這樣子好那現在我們審第14案那是不是也是中召委要替吳思堯"},{"start":7413.905,"end":7414.206,"text":"14案目前"},{"start":7422.932,"end":7451.004,"text":"我們從最後你看最後一段就可以了請立法院因評估是否接近教育文化委員會的先期溝通模式推廣到其他委員會長里的各部會那麼要求預算送入後則其辦理說明提高預算審議的效率那這個部分因為陳委員也是聯署人那我這裡是覺得因為這個部分我們是希望讓預算的審議更有效率"},{"start":7451.624,"end":7479.484,"text":"那麼凍結不是我們的目的啦我們是希望能夠有所精進那這個部分看陳委員是不是我也覺得應該那個主決議啦這個部分再次強調因為今天會議討論到此我們真的覺得各黨各派各自有民意所託付有各自的堅持跟主張但是預算審議他是一個非常理性的事情也涉及到明年施政"},{"start":7479.984,"end":7495.731,"text":"的兩語所以我們希望這樣的一個預算審議不要淪為一種現場的爭執或臨時起議那我們每個預算提案事前在各委員會都已經有一些既有的成規慣例在運作了那麼吳委員的這個提案當然陳委員的連署"},{"start":7498.952,"end":7522.208,"text":"就是建議可以參酌教育文化委員會的模式那這是純粹一個參考是不是一定教育委員會最好雖然我也待過教育文化委員會但是畢竟我沒有8個委員會都待過說不定有其他委員會的更好那我覺得這個部分是可以有一個書面報告來研擬那這個部分陳委員也接受我們改為主決議謝謝"},{"start":7527.395,"end":7529.296,"text":"我們現在麻煩提案人吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":7555.572,"end":7573.866,"text":"好這個呢其實啊這個就跟前面幾個呢屬性上有一點點差別啦那因為目前我們在第4幕的立法諮詢業務雖然金額不多但是呢這裡面呢根據我們立法院組織法第28條從25條到26條的這些人員還有跟我們聘用人員聘用條例第7條那這些相關的規定"},{"start":7582.412,"end":7604.14,"text":"以至於說我們的副研究員、副研究員、助理研究員都沒有辦法以平友能源充任那這是一個法制上的精進那當然如果陳如剛剛主席或者秘書長所表達這個立法院自己修法就好了嗎是沒有錯啦但是立法委員要修的法不是只有立法院本身自己組織上行使的"},{"start":7604.7,"end":7620.307,"text":"我認為包括吳世凱委員認為這個法當然最後還是要由立法委員來經過合議的方式討論後決定但是發動機關基於立法院本身自己的需求應該當事人當事機關本身最迫切需要"},{"start":7621.027,"end":7648.473,"text":"所以希望我們能夠立法院法制局針對立法院組織法的修法評估你們可以是不是能夠包括考量到教育人員任何條例資格的這些教授副教授助理教授講師我們可以用聘用的方式來支援立法那我們都知道目前以我們目前這些立法諮詢的相關的這些研究人員研究員副研究員助理研究員等等"},{"start":7649.353,"end":7657.16,"text":"這個有這樣的名稱title可是實質上呢他跟其他的公務機關他們所"},{"start":7658.809,"end":7683.85,"text":"所編制上的這些人員他們是有差距的啦那麼這個差距我在這裡因為為了春節時間的使用我就不再細表也就是說我們立法院這些諮詢業務來支援立法委員立法的這些重要的這些智囊他們其實徒有研究員副研究員或助理研究員的這個明顯但是他們的實際的待遇他們實際的任用"},{"start":7684.651,"end":7700.167,"text":"的資格以及轉換他們其實相較於其他公務機關或者是學術機關同樣明顯的這些人員是不完全能夠相比所以我們還是很希望這個部分能夠因為"},{"start":7701.408,"end":7702.368,"text":"拜託秘書長"},{"start":7719.912,"end":7720.052,"text":"主席"},{"start":7735.966,"end":7763.375,"text":"主持法裏面所以委員就是要我尊重我們法制局也是按照當時立法院主主法在貴會所通過的條文因為是大家各黨團都沒有意見通過了那我是補充說聘用人員聘用條例是不能實施的所以當時研究又改成聘任人員所以當時大家通過了這個條文所以已經通過了但是不是這一個主持法還沒有到院會來"},{"start":7764.315,"end":7771.897,"text":"所以我們在演繹上還是依照那一個會在跟各位做報告所以我尊重委員的提案聽了秘書長一席話我有點汗顏啦既然這個問題在我們審法制委員會都已經完成了討論也提報院會"},{"start":7794.389,"end":7818.388,"text":"當天在處理的時候在哪個委員會處理的時候就是在113年4月21日當時的主席大概就只有中委員嗎對啊所以這個部分條文修正案的時候這一個條文的二十八條是已經通過就大家都接受了但是這個主持法當時還有其他的保留還沒送院會所以這一個"},{"start":7820.998,"end":7847.976,"text":"所以我說為什麼漢言因為我們委員會大家各黨都同意了然後要到院會去處理但是很遺憾的我們現在院會的程序的排案像這種沒有爭議的案子坦白說現在民進黨是少數我們根本無力無能為力對排案的順序予以影響"},{"start":7848.877,"end":7876.179,"text":"那其實今天這樣提出來其實就是把話講白了秘書長這個涉及到我們本院同仁的權益如果說能夠運用你的影響力對於多數黨對於我們院長尤其是我們的副總召國民黨的黨鞭希望類似這樣沒有爭議的提案不要一天到晚在程序委員會針對性的把別人提案拉下來針對性的把一些爭議的提案"},{"start":7877.14,"end":7877.18,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":7898.752,"end":7922.477,"text":"的一個需求那剛剛說明了所以我還是這裡我可以接受看這個陳委員的看法我是覺得說要提出來那目的就是希望說運用各位大家的影響力讓這樣的一個有共識的提案在未來的議案排審上不要在程序委會裡面被無故的刁難程序委會刁難少數黨的提案"},{"start":7925.638,"end":7941.943,"text":"甚至不願意交付討論那已經很離譜了像這樣子委員會已經完全沒有爭議的案子到院會還得不到處理的時程這個我們也覺得很遺憾所以民主黨這個部分如果你願意來運用影響力那我們這個提案我們覺得陳委員可以考慮改為主決議謝謝"},{"start":7946.542,"end":7971.385,"text":"因為這法裡面在報告主席跟各位委員這案的立案主制法是不問條文修正案因為它還有涉及到植菌處等等所以只有通過當天的貴會在審查只有通過這一個條文其他都還保留在貴會的所以這一個案裡面如果中委員也同意說改為主決議我是非常謝謝"},{"start":7972.546,"end":7995.03,"text":"那如果要凍結 那我們也尊重委員的提案 我就只能跟各位這樣報告是 那我覺得 民主黨您的談話我覺得有模仿兩可勒 那個凍 剛剛您對凍結很計較 你說凍結也可以 那主決議也可以 我只是說我們希望如果能改成主決議 讓我們秘書長 有這樣的影響力 讓我們的副總召 讓我們的韓院長 讓我們的陳委員會 這樣的案子能不能趕快的在院會處理"},{"start":8002.311,"end":8002.732,"text":"主決意就是……"},{"start":8024.235,"end":8024.676,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8043.052,"end":8069.609,"text":"我們目前是對於排案議程是完全沒有任何的影響能力我這個老實說民進黨目前在我們國會裡面立法院是少數黨我們所有的提案經常在程序委員會被刁難本來不應該連到院會報告都被刁難我是覺得過去至少在排案進入委員會是不會刁難的那當然這個案子不一樣這個案子是委員會已經處理可以送交院會了那一個條文嘛"},{"start":8072.229,"end":8087.984,"text":"不是,因為是立法院組織法的部分討論修正案在審議了很多條文這個28條當時在貴會審查的時候你當主席只有過那個條文其他還有其他的條文都保留還沒有協商是這樣的一個情況"},{"start":8090.086,"end":8090.486,"text":"第4幕 立法院執行業務"},{"start":8121.228,"end":8125.053,"text":"第15案改為主決議接著處理第5目國會圖書業務提案案號第16案請吳思堯委員提案說明"},{"start":8144.175,"end":8164.854,"text":"美國的國會圖書館可以說是美國圖書館界首屈一指的所以我們都很期待台灣未必要像美國那麼強大但是我們國會的民主能夠來支撐台灣的國家發展大家是共同的期望那這裡面國會圖書館過去一直有委員來關注那這裡面有一個"},{"start":8166.155,"end":8181.146,"text":"立法院國會擴建規劃及監督委員會已經就立法院擴建基地評選分析報告討論那未來是不是能在這樣的討論當中將國會圖書館的願景及策略規劃特別的放進去那因為這個項目有3885萬"},{"start":8184.068,"end":8206.779,"text":"金額呢不少那能夠提供的服務我相信也是不錯那因此這樣的一個意見呢因為剛剛包括我們在場的陳俊宇委員一直也都很關心國會的擴建基地的評選分析包括他過去都在追蹤也對我們國會未來能夠擴建這個規劃的進度也很了解那這個吳委員的提案是希望在這樣的一個大的框架底下對於未來國會圖書館的"},{"start":8208.46,"end":8222.487,"text":"愿景和策略應該有詳加的說明那這個部分我也是尊重吳思堯委員請我代為提案那因為陳委員對我們國會的擴建改建都很注意那也是希望能夠得到我們大家的支持那麼請我們"},{"start":8224.728,"end":8241.566,"text":"秘書長則曾趕快提出來一個書面的內容針對國會圖書館的部分或許國會的整體的牽線擴建知識體大但是未來的國會裡面的國會圖書館應該有什麼樣的願景功能這個你們詳述我們會真的會支持好"},{"start":8246.946,"end":8260.726,"text":"還是針對我們這個國會擴建或是簽建的部分還是就叫我們的秘書長因為不管是要就6個點子來挑選一個適當的位置或是在縣子這邊來做擴建的話"},{"start":8262.208,"end":8280.728,"text":"我相信應該所有的立法委員都會支持只是要這個動作要趕快啟動不管是這個政黨的協商那聽取各黨的這個委員的意見阿對於我們未來整個這個擴建跟遷建的這些工程應該是要盡早來做一個詳實的一個規劃那"},{"start":8283.251,"end":8310.899,"text":"避免說我們現在一直編列預算那一直保留或是說未來我們這個錢假設說我們現在通過之後可能在這個縣子這邊來做圖書館的相關設備的擴充等等那可是未來可能我們這個立法院是簽件那就變成這個預算可能沒有達到實質的一個意義所以還是拜託我們秘書長跟我們相關部會可以對這個部分盡早來做這個相關的一個"},{"start":8312.68,"end":8323.05,"text":"細項的規劃也明確的能夠選出一個適當的位置讓這個立法院要改建或是擴建要簽建都能夠及早來完工"},{"start":8326.398,"end":8328.819,"text":"請秘書長說明所以秘書長的意思就是凍結部分"},{"start":8355.302,"end":8374.068,"text":"好那OK好第五目國會圖書館業務提案案號第16案本目凍結一百萬並呃針對凍結提案之要求依審查會決議提出書面報告後使得動之接著處以第六目公報業務提案號第17案好對"},{"start":8383.645,"end":8398.779,"text":"我這邊簡單的說明一下,主要就是說我們認為立法院在環保方面尤其是印製紙張上面是可以考量用無紙化的方向去思考"},{"start":8399.44,"end":8426.659,"text":"所以這個部分我們希望說因為每年在紙張還有墨水的印製上面都是達到上千萬那在減少紙張或是一些油墨印刷上面這可能是比較不環保那我們想說現在政府也是推暢環保那是不是說在這塊部分能夠立法院有所作為來秘書長尊重委員的提案"},{"start":8427.909,"end":8438.575,"text":"第6目公報業務提案案號第17案本目凍結100萬並針對凍結提案之要求依審查會決議提出書面報告後時的凍支接著處理第8目一般建築及設備提案案號第18案至第25案我們請"},{"start":8455.816,"end":8462.6,"text":"第18案提案人吳思堯請說明謝謝主席今天吳委員的很多提案其實展現出他個人對於包括國會的願景還有對於一個"},{"start":8481.857,"end":8496.674,"text":"都市的意象以及一個公有聽色應有的樣貌那這裡面主要談的是其實這裡面有描述到我們部門聯立法院的縣子他是一個第二高等女校的校舍"},{"start":8497.395,"end":8519.685,"text":"那其實目前我們到112年為止已經有包括6個地方包括中任紀念堂園區、空軍總部就職、土城看守所的縣址、成功領營區、高鐵的彰化車站特定區還有中興文化創意產業園區這6個地方那這已經是去年的時候就已經有完成6處了"},{"start":8520.945,"end":8521.726,"text":"﹚立法院主管"},{"start":8551.205,"end":8575.521,"text":"整個營建工程的推動所以其實留著這樣的一個議案至少讓我們表達出委員們對於本案的關切那秘書長如果能夠接受這樣的案子其實也未來如果你送出書面報告也能順利解凍了那表示我們共同的把這個案子往前推進這個都不是壞事"},{"start":8579.326,"end":8599.492,"text":"尊重尊重就是按照提案委員的尊重好那就OK給我1秒第7號那就動好本案就是第19案的部分動100沒有意見好那在第"},{"start":8601.971,"end":8611.62,"text":"第19案的部分就凍結100萬,那我想後面是否就是請鍾嘉賓、昭偉能夠一併做提案說明?"},{"start":8613.409,"end":8620.316,"text":"我先跟中召委報告一下因為21案謝榮介他是改組決議嘛所以後面到25案都是您的案子那我就從20案開始我了解了解了"},{"start":8636.597,"end":8662.509,"text":"20案其實今天也是有點難為情因為自己立法院的事情拿到我們用我們預算的事情來討論什麼電梯、空調、沖水馬桶那這個案子因為我們的總務處已經有做說明了那我覺得我可以接受我們總務處在這個改善上的用心所以本案我可以接受改為主決議好不好"},{"start":8665.111,"end":8686.333,"text":"主席要不要先處理,主決議先發給大家看嗎?因為他們都準備好了。主席在發的過程當中我就在進行22案。那22案這個真的要跟大家來做報告跟委員報告,因為目前AI高暢入雲,事實上我們過去立法院還維持著"},{"start":8687.054,"end":8704.886,"text":"以數位科技來講是時期時代的作為我們每次看到議事人員很辛苦尤其在我們議事工房上有時候以前祭出暗海戰術我還記得在第9屆的時候那個暗海戰術幾千個提案不要說我們委員要在議場裡面徹夜不斷電表決"},{"start":8707.688,"end":8731.246,"text":"我們的意識人員宣讀啊 宣讀到昏倒啊 這個可能我們主席吳釗偉如果你又翻翻過去第九屆吼 真的有這樣子念到昏倒 所以我們真的很不忍 那現在有AI有智慧的應用 那其實這樣的讀稿的部分呢 可以用取代用人工來宣讀 這才不會造成我們意識人員他自己身體上生態上不可負"},{"start":8731.826,"end":8731.846,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":8750.64,"end":8750.8,"text":"翁委員"},{"start":8779.622,"end":8796.111,"text":"我這邊跟那個中央委員稍微說明一下因為我們其實在經費集合委員會的時候其實都有要求秘書處這邊要做那麼他們也其實也都已經在處理了也在進行各個不同的這種系統的測試對那麼我認為我們這個是在這個會期吧第幾次的經費"},{"start":8804.395,"end":8831.322,"text":"對他們都有提供給我們報告了所以我的建議是說可以請秘書長這邊再把我們上次經費集合委員會然後要求總書這邊提供的報告然後再傳給中嘉賓委員看那麼因為我們都很關心這件事情也認為真的是進入到數位跟AI時代不需要再那麼勞煩議事委員一直不斷的念那麼這個部分我其實非常支持您的看法只是說因為這件事情已經在做了是不是就不要凍結這個案子了"},{"start":8836.8,"end":8836.82,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":8854.735,"end":8878.063,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":8878.163,"end":8895.952,"text":"好啊是不是我們提一個整個技術的報告資料給委員這邊啊可不可以改成主決議我我很欣慰哈今天終於跟翁委員有共識哈因為他在經費集合委員會啊他也知道你們有這些努力但是我不是嘛所以我只能透過預算的審議來要求那這樣好了啦哈為了表示誠意哈"},{"start":8897.913,"end":8923.311,"text":"那這個部分我也同意不用凍結那我用改組決議但是組決議待會送給大家那我剛剛聽了翁委員的一個說明也聽了我們處長的說明要注意我這邊提出這個我們不見得委員會有逐字稿但是這個部分務必要在組決議裡面把它加註意見因為那個組決議我後來聽一聽因為目前這個AI的技術研發它需要大量的數據那大量的數據在華文華語的一個"},{"start":8926.613,"end":8956.613,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":8956.773,"end":8959.316,"text":"所以我是覺得未來如果要進行AI化那我們在採購的時候一定要非常非常的嚴格的註明因為我們是什麼華文華語很容易啊資訊商啊他來啊他的語音模型數據資料庫他就直接拿人家現成的買授權就來用啊"},{"start":8976.567,"end":9003.297,"text":"那會完全造成我們搞不好立出中華人民共和國的憲法這個會很擔心啊所以我這個部分是不是你們主決的部分把這個部分加注進去特別注意到台灣跟中國在華文華語上的差異性避免踩到這個雷好不好你們那個主決這個可以彎一點我可以同意改成主決但主決再改一下我們先暫保留後面再來處理我同意不要凍結我們把這個主決寫好一點好不好"},{"start":9004.471,"end":9027.549,"text":"主要就是以採用我們本國廠商的開發的系統為主對我們在上次我們已經有講過不過也尊重對中央中委員的意見那我們是請中委員就接下來繼續他們你主決議的過程中先剛剛的20案20案是不是我就把它唸一遍我就看同意的話大家同意就好了20案改為主決的部分就是"},{"start":9029.331,"end":9042.198,"text":"原件請立法院規劃立法院委員研究大樓公測服務品質提升方案就提書面報告就這樣接下來是那個第23案23案的這個資訊設備其實在我們其他機關的預算審查每次只要審到資訊設備大概都會被檢列會被嚴格的檢視那在這裡面我特別要說明的就是"},{"start":9059.008,"end":9085.781,"text":"目前我們院內的這些他目前以114年度編了6000萬他就是來汰換超過年限或者說原廠不再資源認體的無線網路基地台及供電型的網路交換器設備他並沒有辦法提升技術跟品質設備那在之前我有跟我們的資訊處反映過我說目前我們立法院大概有自己的防火牆"},{"start":9087.277,"end":9106.996,"text":"那我們的防火牆當中呢我們對外的聯絡委員的部分在研究室我們的頻寬雖然防火牆是一體的但是對外的網路頻寬我們是租用民間的台智光那至於我們其他委員研究室以外我們院內的那個部分我們是另外有系統"},{"start":9107.97,"end":9130.058,"text":"我要再次的強調現在立法院是我們中華民國台灣民主制度最脆弱的部分就是被資訊滲透被打擊我們這邊處理的很多是國家重要的資訊但是如果將立法院駭客入侵將我們癱瘓或竊取機密情資這會對我們國家造成很大的傷害"},{"start":9130.658,"end":9157.751,"text":"那我一直關心的就是說立法院本身對自己治安的防護有沒有足夠那委員本身他們的問政所需要的平寬是否足夠那我那天才知道說居然我們雖然說是同一個防火牆但是在我們內部的對外聯繫上卻是不同的系統在提供我們平寬的服務這一點我是非常的擔心所以才會希望說資訊處能夠呢在這個部分上有一個比較嚴謹完整的一個報告"},{"start":9160.212,"end":9180.011,"text":"讓我們委員在讓我們全國的人民尤其是在其他的公務機關公務機關那麼多國會聯絡人每逢預算審議的時候那麼多的機密資料帶來跟委員做報告那委員用辦公室的網路設備就對外聯繫那是很可怕的所以我這裡是不是請主席讓我們的資訊處就這一點我們的擔憂做一個簡要的說明"},{"start":9185.412,"end":9209.782,"text":"麻煩說明報告主席跟委員有關評判的部分的話上一次跟委員這邊來報告我們會後的話我們也去看就研究室的整個評判部分我目前大概是查最近一個月已經查超過一半以上目前各研究室300名的那個專線的話大概峰值大概只用到100多都沒有超過200我們看目前看的"},{"start":9212.939,"end":9234.678,"text":"也跟委員報告因為會後也跟委員這邊的研究室在討論因為除了評判的部分的話看各研究室目前都是沒有超過峰值最主要是搭配軟體因為可能各個委員裡面有使用一些軟體可能不一樣我們也去問了其他有做直播的委員有兩位有直接做直播"},{"start":9235.799,"end":9239.242,"text":"我們有問幾個他們是說目前是沒有什麼問題因為我們在看評判的話目前是可以的委員關心的話是整個資訊安全部分的話這邊我們會寫一個詳細的報告給那個委員會這邊因為資訊安全也是處裡面非常重視的一個課題"},{"start":9255.674,"end":9256.694,"text":"司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":9279.079,"end":9301.594,"text":"依照治安法規定的部分要辦理相關的一些治安防護措施我們也有做一些內部的一些會議每個月的話我都會召開會議來看相關的一些害性的一些狀況整個內容的話我會寫成一個那個資訊安全那個評估報告提給委員會裡面來知道院裡面到底怎麼做的評估的部分的話跟會後的話委員直播那邊有問題的部分我們"},{"start":9302.935,"end":9316.543,"text":"我會來協助來處理因為委員那邊我也看到委員那邊的你們真正的峰值也大概用到100多枚而已根本沒有滿阿所以那個直播軟體可能跟硬體的搭配的話這邊我們會來協助來處理以上報告我想資訊處長是專業啦但是如果去想想看如果廠商提供給我們的峰值是300枚阿我們的峰值只有到100枚阿我們就斷線了其實到底他給我們的這個規格是真的是假的啦"},{"start":9333.566,"end":9344.41,"text":"我覺得這個從他們的設備他們在我們院區外的設備的裝置是可以去查出來的不然他推銷員跟你講的說沒有問題你們113位委員研究室我們都給你300枚但是他在外面的聯網的設備"},{"start":9351.926,"end":9378.882,"text":"前面給你承諾的水管都很粗,後面的集水管比前面還細,那就根本做不到嘛,所以我想處長你應該了解我的意思吧,你們也要去查,不要他口頭上抬字光跟你說我都給你承諾承諾,你們都最多也用到100枚,有沒有想過大家的峰值沒有超過100枚,可能他的提供的原來外面的原始的就不夠,所以我們到100枚這樣就斷線了,所以他們都說你們都沒有超過100枚啊,因為我們到100枚就斷了啊,"},{"start":9379.942,"end":9380.422,"text":"可以嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":9407.112,"end":9434.237,"text":"主席謝謝你給我們一些剛才的一些知識因為我也不太了解謝謝民主黨那是不是接下來就繼續第24案麻煩總統你後面這個設備我很關心就是其實大家現在看看今天是非常冷窗戶都關著我們的空調開但又不敢開太冷但是我們這邊又少了一個什麼室內的空氣品質的二氧化碳濃度的監督那其實我們教育委員會是有"},{"start":9435.179,"end":9437.394,"text":"其實每個會議室不見得都有"},{"start":9437.97,"end":9465.483,"text":"所以我這裡面呢就是提出說是不是為了考慮到我們的問政大家的不是只有立法委員所有在開會的這些工作人員列席機關列席代表都有在內但是很奇怪啊這個事情齁從第9屆那時候我看教文就有裝了但是其他委員會沒有改啊所以我就很疑惑為什麼這幾年我們的到底是怎麼回事是不是只有教文委員會那邊比較空氣容易"},{"start":9466.443,"end":9466.764,"text":"﹚立法院主管"},{"start":9480.213,"end":9505.572,"text":"呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃 呃"},{"start":9505.772,"end":9525.456,"text":"各會議室裏面他大概上禮拜就跟我講了因為我知道你在諮詢我又在看啦所以他們也認真在做了各會議室都要去處理啦不僅我們三年後各會議室他有提了一個給我看了也有一個產商的報價我大概看過啦我也看一個"},{"start":9528.657,"end":9537.103,"text":"他報價大概要多久我就不清楚就是他有給我看了當時他的規劃的情況跟廠商的情況我是有看過我看廖市長大概我不太他已經去在規劃也給我看過廠商的這個報價大概時間上大概多久"},{"start":9563.765,"end":9583.22,"text":"下個會期開議之前完成好嗎?下個會期開議之前因為我們現在距離會期結束也不會就是三個月內可以不可以就下個會期開議之前就是差不多也差不多差不多三個月那你就開議前好不好對開議前就下個會期開議前然後就改成主決議謝謝你們"},{"start":9591.735,"end":9592.155,"text":"對,下一個還是再麻煩總召委員"},{"start":9618.669,"end":9623.888,"text":"我們覺得這個部分因為這個是過去沒有做過的那所以是不是這個噪音檢測設備"},{"start":9626.026,"end":9654.049,"text":"這個部分也能夠考慮因為我們的麥克風其實大家都在關注麥克風本身麥克風本身是會受到意識杯葛的一些損傷但是我們的耳末也經常受到會議期間也不當的經常性的習慣性的咆哮那這個耳末受損這個很難恢復麥克風如果說因為意識杯葛工房被拉壞了修一修就好人體的零件"},{"start":9655.183,"end":9679.649,"text":"這沒得更換啦,或者更換要很花錢啦,所以我是覺得這個噪音的檢測為了維護我們議事的這個品質也避免在場的人員的健康受到受損,我們覺得對於這種不要再細數的這些噪音內容我們希望能夠有一些監測或防範或什麼的方式來處理,大概是這樣的意思"},{"start":9684.788,"end":9694.19,"text":"我其實也呼應中委員的意見那確實我在立法院進來將近10個月我也是常常會對於這種突然之間的咆哮大聲然後噪音嚇一跳可是我發現這個跟我們裝測噪音檢測設備是不是有關係因為其實是常常有些委員就突然爆衝突然叫很大聲而且不見得是我們司法法制委員會的委員"},{"start":9711.994,"end":9739.665,"text":"都是外面來的委員所以像這樣的情況說這個裝飾噪音檢測設備那是不是以後應該可能在大家麥克風前面都要裝一個還是我們以後有特定的委員他特別大聲的那就不應該來我們司法法制委員會我覺得汪委員他這樣講我也很微妙其實有時候委員會的噪音是特定委員到哪個委員會哪個委員會就有咆哮的噪音"},{"start":9741.345,"end":9760.651,"text":"到底這個噪音檢測是要裝在委員會的牆壁上還是裝在委員的身上這個我們就不清楚了沒想到這個翁委員這麼幽默我也沒想過這個方式這個噪音員要把噪音檢測放在噪音員身上其實我是想說接收端因為會議室是聽的人受影響那咆哮的人他聲音很大"},{"start":9764.217,"end":9786.305,"text":"這個我們比較難去做處理我是覺得我們是不是比較務實一點你很難在特定人身上裝個噪音檢測去測量他機動性的跟著他跑不如我們就是固定的會議室有一個基本的偵測那大家知道之後主席就會善意的提醒行委員保持這個風度不要過度的聲量大損及到其他人的健康我想這樣應該可以接受"},{"start":9787.385,"end":9788.065,"text":"議員們的聲音實在太大聲了"},{"start":9805.594,"end":9819.381,"text":"這個突然之間要咆哮大叫然後讓我們都不知所措然後這個耳膜真的是都有受損好不好是很多事情都聽不太清楚因為一直重複然後一直很大聲的這個大聲嚷嚷這個真的是問題嚴重當然了就是噪音檢測設備部分如果說我們這個立法院這個經費足夠的話那也可以在每個會議室都可以裝設好謝謝"},{"start":9836.079,"end":9856.168,"text":"麻煩秘書長因為這兩岸這一個剛才空氣跟這個噪音是同樣一個廠商報價兩個是一起在一起的各會議室都會做每一個會議室大概一個會議室3萬多塊錢所以包含會議室大概也不到30萬所以這個有含噪音跟空氣的兩個一起的"},{"start":9865.532,"end":9873.316,"text":"有這個功能,報章剛才總事跟我講兩功能都有,是這樣的,也跟各位了解。"},{"start":9876.728,"end":9893.941,"text":"主席主席我這還是要具體描述一下因為我們沒有翁委員想法這麼先進我是覺得這個廠商都講三萬多我不覺得單價高但是能滿足我們的功能所以他能夠即時反應比如說裝在這裡突然聲音的咆哮砰80db他馬上就一個紅燈閃那我們就知道現在因為"},{"start":9898.206,"end":9926.762,"text":"因果要明確嘛突然的噪音是誰造成的馬上就知道主席會說這個紅燈亮了請委員降低你的聲量但是你不要弄那個數字上的我們看不到的你就是弄一個很具體的即時反應讓主席可以維持會長秩序的這樣子我才能達到效果不然的話你裝那個空氣的那個品質二氧化碳的濃度起起伏伏如果你不去看你根本不會知道現在二氧化碳的濃度多少"},{"start":9927.262,"end":9938.863,"text":"但是噪音的咆哮的危害是大家馬上會受到影響那有那個客觀的指標告訴大家的確當下的咆哮太大聲的主席紅燈亮了那個委員請"},{"start":9941.374,"end":9958.528,"text":"請冷靜請冷靜好不好那個主席也認同吧這樣也比較有助於你的意識組成中委員的意見非常好最好能夠去買到那種AI系統他會及時抓臉然後看到誰的聲音很大聲立刻就說比如說中委員中委員你的聲音太大了請小聲然後類似是這樣子"},{"start":9961.819,"end":9984.499,"text":"我們總部處在細節跟廠商在研擬剛才委員所提的那些重點我們在仔細在跟廠商說要加上人臉辨識系統他說要加那種那個偵測掃描要加人臉辨識系統有沒有想到會員這個對科技的沒有完全沒有落後沒有沒有畢竟當過ACC委員我其實對AI科技還滿了解的法庭也是用這個"},{"start":9986.075,"end":10009.59,"text":"我沒有意見,我是說法庭現在也是他會去追是誰在發言,就是鏡頭就拍他主決議然後按照委員的意思去描述都簽名了嗎?要簽名"},{"start":10031.485,"end":10037.308,"text":"現在法庭都這樣啊就是誰講話他就直接鏡頭就會拉過去啊這早就建制了啊就採購設備以具有什麼什麼的功能為家對因為也不知道到底有沒有這樣的這個系統設備這是我們想像想到的買這樣的一個噪音測試系統對"},{"start":10062.487,"end":10072.101,"text":"請問一下,因為現在那個法庭他的筆錄是AI化嘛所以你講話的時候他抓到你之後他的筆錄就會跳出來了所以他是本來就會抓"},{"start":10212.883,"end":10221.952,"text":"中委員再麻煩你二十五萬簽一下二十五萬我也沒那麼多錢借你"},{"start":10257.225,"end":10262.648,"text":"第8目一般建築及設備提案號第18案之第25案第18、22、1、22、24、25改為主決議"},{"start":10267.864,"end":10273.087,"text":"本目合併凍結兩百萬,並針對各凍結提案之要求依審查會決議提出書面報告後,使得凍支。繼續處理主決議提案號26至48案。我的資料好,第26案請問第26案請問有無其他意見"},{"start":10297.305,"end":10314.806,"text":"沒有的話我們就依照主決議通過27案請問有其他意見?第二十七案機關有意見?那就依主決議通過第二十八案機關有意見?"},{"start":10317.179,"end":10345.101,"text":"我們就依照文字修正後通過第二十九案 測案第三十案 請問機關有意見 遵照辦理那就依照文字修正後通過第三十一案 機關有意見 遵照辦理那就依主決議通過第三十二案 機關有意見 遵照辦理依主決議通過三十三案 機關有意見 遵照辦理依主決議通過第三十四案 請問機關有意見 遵照辦理"},{"start":10345.885,"end":10371.496,"text":"好,那就依主決意通過。第35案請問機關有意見。遵照辦理。那就依主決意通過。第36案請問機關有意見。遵照辦理。好,就依文字修正後通過。第37案請問機關有意見。遵照辦理。好,那依文字修正後通過。第38案請問機關有意見。遵照辦理。好,那依主決意通過。第39案請問機關有意見。遵照辦理。"},{"start":10374.138,"end":10375.199,"text":"一組決議通過,第40案請問機關有無意見?"},{"start":10375.199,"end":10377.501,"text":"遵照辦理一組決議通過,第41案請問機關有無意見?"},{"start":10377.501,"end":10379.542,"text":"遵照辦理一組決議通過,第42案機關有無意見?"},{"start":10379.542,"end":10379.943,"text":"遵照辦理"},{"start":10388.91,"end":10407.834,"text":"主決於通過第43案 機關有異見 遵照辦理 文字修正後通過第14案 機關有異見 遵照辦理 主決於通過第45案 測案第46案 測案第47案 機關有異見 遵照辦理 主決於通過第48案 機關有異見 遵照辦理 主決於通過"},{"start":10416.522,"end":10438.181,"text":"主決議提案案號第二十六案至第四十八案第二六二七三一三二三三三四三五三八三九四十四一四二四四四七四八案照案通過第二八三十三六三七四三案依修正後通過第二十九四五四六預測案"},{"start":10440.523,"end":10450.271,"text":"本日議程討論事項已經處理完畢做以下宣告一四年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分審查完畢提報議員會議員會討論前需交由黨團協商議員會討論時由吳昭偉中線說明"},{"start":10460.942,"end":10482.352,"text":"有關本日下午議程討論事項通過修正之預算提案,請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後,送交主席臺均列入公報記錄,通過之決議原例文字授權主席及議事人員處理。本次會議議程所列事項均已處理完畢。會議進行到此結束,現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"16399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16399","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea19061065897f096ccf69c81f1d0185aa78081dad70f87c46c30770c2866994085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【本次會議時間為下午2時30分至議程處理完竣。】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-19T14:01:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T18:01:00+08:00","duration":14373,"影片長度":"03:59:33","委員發言時間":"14:01:27 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F的規模是多大整個市場的規模是多大現在大概是國內應該是6兆左右6兆左右"},{"start":266.741,"end":283.806,"text":"好那之前的ETF有的已經出現被套牢狀況好像已經不是大家一開始講的那個樣子然後呢又一直要推新的ETF出來我想問一下金管會這邊有沒有什麼對於ETF的在行銷上面對投資人的保護的部分有什麼措施嗎其實啊剛剛講我們"},{"start":285.959,"end":308.062,"text":"推動商品多元化這是我們一個很重要當然是穩健剛剛比如說我們對ETF如果委員有注意前陣子我們對那個廣告網紅這些東西我們都有定下規矩而且我們也裁罰了還就像我們對這個ETF的這個誤導的部分我們在整個整個行銷管理上面是真的有在發布一些規定來管理因為"},{"start":309.023,"end":329.993,"text":"畢竟剛剛講說過去我們都是被動式的ETF那現在市場上呢我們希望它能夠增加一個主動式ETF當然我們在做交易宣導跟這個在銷售管控上我們一定會嚴格的把關一定會但是因為我聽不出來怎麼把關啊因為時間關係沒關係時間關係你再補一個書面報告給我好不好因為好不好然後最後一個問題就好"},{"start":331.374,"end":355.909,"text":"因為我知道金管會現在也很認真在打詐有一個措施就是請民間的銀行不要對那個社群平台下廣告那請問一下現在民營銀行的配合程度是怎麼樣那現在是因為他們銀行公會理事長他們自發性的我們其實上他們是自發性的去那很多的銀行大家都有配合就對了其實應該也蠻多金融機構配合但我們金融機構的家族範圍非常廣"},{"start":357.21,"end":383.106,"text":"各自有不同的做法這不是你們主推的啦是他們主動啦這個是因為我們不會去介入他們的廣告政策這不在我們的監理範圍是他們自覺說他們的他們的名字常會被炸彈用他就希望用這樣的方式自清的方式那是他們的自發性的行為他們自發性的行為所以金管會還是會拿很多其他的方法來主張那當然我們在政策上我是覺得說用這種方法當然可能一定有效果但那個效果不是"},{"start":383.726,"end":385.908,"text":"委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1264,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時10分）麻煩請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。金管會的辦公地點應該在我們板橋吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是板橋，在高鐵站樓上。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，但是包括剛剛大家關心的亞洲資產管理中心，包括碳權交易所，全部都移到高雄去設立。你在板橋，你應該知道我們板橋其實最近發展也不錯，也都有相關的條件。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼你什麼都想到高雄，就不會想到你的所在地板橋？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題，前天院長參加活動，他也講希望我們這個所謂的資產管理中心能夠遍地開花，各個縣市如果願意提出他們的特色，金管會都很樂意去協助跟配合。"],["葉委員元之：所以你現在設在高雄，都是高雄提出來的需求是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼高雄都知道你們要幹嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們是兩三年前就已經在規劃這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：我是建議，因為我不需要去跟您強調板橋的優勢，因為你的所在地就在那邊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我在那邊，我非常清楚。"],["葉委員元之：對，希望你在設立相關中心的時候，未來可能有別的東西的時候，可以考慮一下你們辦公的所在地。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，那當然。"],["葉委員元之：第二個我想問的問題是，之前經濟部長郭智輝說雲豹能源炒股票，故意放假消息出去，然後股價就漲了非常多。後來證交所說，如果經查有這個問題的話，就有刑責要移送檢調。現在已經一個月了，不知道查得怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，我們交易所確實按照程序在辦理，我請證期局局長跟您簡單回答。"],["葉委員元之：好。"],["張局長振山：跟委員報告，這個事情其實在證交所已經進行查處了。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在的狀況是怎樣？"],["張局長振山：查處的結果認為是他的資訊沒有控管得很好。"],["葉委員元之：誰的資訊沒有控管得很好？"],["張局長振山：雲豹公司對於重大訊息的控制，沒有控制得很好。"],["葉委員元之：對重大訊息？"],["張局長振山：也就是說該公司對外發布的訊息，會讓人家聯想是不是有跟……"],["葉委員元之：所以你的意思是說，確實雲豹公司有跟別人講輝達要來這邊設廠，然後需要多少電？"],["張局長振山：不是，因為輝達並沒有跟他口頭承諾，只是他們的發言人對外講得太over。"],["葉委員元之：所以他們發言人對外講什麼，可不可以講明白一點？"],["張局長振山：也就是說，他們對外說跟那些公司有聯繫，事實上公司並沒有正面回覆。"],["葉委員元之：輝達是不是？"],["張局長振山：對，沒錯。"],["葉委員元之：所以他們有講假消息？"],["張局長振山：因為外面的媒體看到他有對外類似這種言論，所以我們後來請公司對外發言要審慎。"],["葉委員元之：所以確實雲豹公司有對外發言不審慎，然後造成股票的波動，所以郭智輝講的是正確的──是這個意思嗎？"],["張局長振山：是的。"],["葉委員元之：郭智輝講的是正確，那如果郭智輝講的是正確，雲豹公司確實有問題，然後影響股價的話，你們現在怎麼處理──移送檢調是不是？"],["張局長振山：沒有，就是證交所對公司做警告，甚至要罰鍰。"],["葉委員元之：所以只有警告？"],["張局長振山：有罰鍰，有處罰。"],["葉委員元之：有處罰？因為當時你說要移送檢調，說有刑責，涉及證交法。"],["張局長振山：如果查是屬實的話，我們就會依法處理。"],["葉委員元之：你現在不是在查嗎？我現在就在問你查是屬實……"],["張局長振山：查的結果就是他對外的發言……"],["葉委員元之：就是查的不屬實，不是屬實，所以不用移送，但是他發言確有不恰當，所以予以警告要發言精準，是這個意思嗎？"],["張局長振山：是的。"],["葉委員元之：就是還沒有到不實，但是發言確實有讓大家誤會，所以就用警告的方式。"],["張局長振山：是的。"],["葉委員元之：就是高高舉起，輕輕放下。再來我問一下主委，因為最近金管會感覺上，在政策上面是推廣ETF，說明年又要推什麼新的ETF，然後有很多新型的商品出來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：主動式ETF。"],["葉委員元之：主動式ETF，但因為今年一開始的時候ETF非常的熱門，尤其是那種月配息的那一種，所以很多人去買，但是有一些人到年尾的時候發現被套牢了。現在ETF的規模是多大？整個市場的規模是多大？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在國內應該是6兆左右。"],["葉委員元之：6兆左右？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["葉委員元之：好，那之前的ETF有的已經出現被套牢狀況，好像已經不是大家一開始講的那個樣子，然後一直要推新的ETF出來。金管會對於ETF在行銷上面，對投資人的保護部分，有什麼措施嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛講我們推動商品多元化，這是很重要的，當然是穩健，比如說我們對ETF，如果委員有注意，前一陣子我們對廣告網紅這些東西都有訂下規矩，而且我們也裁罰了，就像對於ETF誤導的部分，我們在整個行銷管理上面是真的有在發布一些規定來管理。因為畢竟剛剛講，過去我們都是被動式的ETF，現在市場上我們希望能夠增加一個主動式ETF。當然我們在做交易宣導跟在銷售管控上，我們一定會嚴格的把控。"],["葉委員元之：一定會，但是我聽不出來怎麼把關，因為時間關係，你再補一個書面報告給我好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：最後一個問題，因為我知道金管會現在也很認真在打詐，有一個措施就是請民間的銀行不要對社群平台下廣告。請問現在民營銀行的配合程度是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是因為銀行公會理事長他們自發性的，其實他們是自發性的去，那很多的銀行……"],["葉委員元之：大家都有配合就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實應該也蠻多金融機構配合，但我們金融機構的家數範圍非常廣，各自有不同的做法。"],["葉委員元之：這不是你們主推的，是他們主動。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們不會去介入他們的廣告政策，這不在我們的監理範圍，是他們自覺他們的名字常會被詐團用，就希望用這樣自清的方式，那是他們的自發性的行為。"],["葉委員元之：他們自發性的行為。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["葉委員元之：所以金管會還是會拿很多其他的方法來阻詐，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，我們在政策上……"],["葉委員元之：我是覺得用這種方法當然可能有一定效果，但那個效果不是絕對跟全面。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是多元方法。"],["葉委員元之：因為詐騙集團下的廣告更多，所以可能要找很多更積極的方法出來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，我們持續的在想方設法解決這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。楊瓊瓔委員提書面質詢。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們今天登記發言的委員都已經詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決議：說明及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請金管會於一週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者從其約定。委員楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請金管會用書面答復。中華民國114年度中央政府總預算有關金管會、銀行局、證期局、保險局、檢查局收支部分及附屬單位預算，有關金管會主管營業部分、中央存款保險有限公司及非營業部分、特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、信託基金─保險業務發展基金，均另擇期繼續審查。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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對不對"},{"start":144.687,"end":171.539,"text":"因為老人說的投信這些老傢伙沒有人會去看好這個東西嘛這年輕人他願意去嘗試去拼所以當初如果說我們主管機關的態度是謹慎又開放又小心又建議他只要投資一萬就可以變成多少主委你知道嗎"},{"start":172.971,"end":191.45,"text":"看什麼時候投資最早到最近十幾萬一顆獲利是多少是萬倍一萬倍以上那大家都想說那怎麼有這些傻瓜會去買這個東西以前我們比較"},{"start":192.867,"end":199.513,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險"},{"start":215.339,"end":236.867,"text":"比較久了大概6年前如果台灣是採取開放的態度我相信台灣有很多年輕人在這一波虛擬貨幣的發展他們是跟上潮流的那你看川普上去了以後他改變他的思維美國會不會把虛擬貨幣、虛擬資產成為他外匯準備的一個儲備因為我看那個鮑爾是說他們現在沒有這個計畫"},{"start":243.939,"end":258.866,"text":"有在討論對,他們說那個他們的FED現在沒有是,我希望說主委是用比較開闊的心態因為香港現在比較勢微的那新加坡就是一直搶搶滾"},{"start":262.188,"end":276.524,"text":"替代了很多的這個Private Banking很多的一些資產管理的很多資金、金流都跑到新加坡去川普時代來臨了以後大概會面臨改變主委你大概會怎麼判斷"},{"start":277.425,"end":293.523,"text":"未來整個亞洲金融的交易中心會怎麼樣的移轉?台灣應該要掌握什麼契機?我想資金有很多面向有不同的資金他會駐足在不同的地方"},{"start":296.347,"end":308.361,"text":"臺灣是具有投資機會還有很多新創潛力有深度的市場所以我們是希望吸引這樣的資金在臺灣來進行管理這部分我覺得臺灣的努力"},{"start":316.834,"end":329.363,"text":"以10年5年以來的發展臺灣確實深度跟廣度上已經有很大的改變所以我覺得未來臺灣是有可能在整個亞洲的資產管理在有一席之地"},{"start":330.134,"end":348.272,"text":"我們希望說一棒接一棒各個是好棒在場有我們黃天牧前主委也在這個地方過去黃主委他奠定了一個基礎大概金融圈的感覺就是穩擦穩打很保守那也不是說不好啦"},{"start":349.173,"end":369.644,"text":"有好比如說金融銀行的這個獲利以及證券相關這個今年大概都已經破紀錄了接近要上兆表示這個金融圈大家都是過得快樂的日子那過去穩定的基礎現在銀行的預放大概多少0.160.16保險的部分"},{"start":375.265,"end":386.822,"text":"這個保險的部分這個低於資本市儲率的現在還有幾家現在目前一家就一家有沒有機會救起來他們在努力中"},{"start":388.404,"end":415.163,"text":"銀行證券,證券也不錯啊在過去的努力也破了兩萬點所以這個基礎都已經打好了現在接棒就需要更多的開放更多的點子那彭主席你是點子王啊沒有所以我想說你穩健是穩健希望可以積極那你現在看韓國韓國最近的資金大幅的外商大竄頭是為什麼"},{"start":416.843,"end":435.557,"text":"我也看到就是我們亞洲股市裡面大部分都是上漲比如說像台灣跟日本是大概是兩個那接下來後來香港那個韓國是下跌的我想這個他有很比較複雜的這樣一個結構因為他戒嚴啊那可能有一段長的趨勢台灣有沒有可能會搞戒嚴"},{"start":438.171,"end":463.816,"text":"抱歉我沒辦法回答沒辦法回答好那萬一萬一我們當然是不希望看到戒嚴可是如果有人心存歹念想要戒嚴的話一搞戒嚴的話對於金融機構會有什麼影響我們所有的企業所有民眾的資金會被凍結這個看我想如果說以韓國的經驗不管它時間多短但是產生這個資本市場波動已經大家都看到了"},{"start":464.946,"end":487.985,"text":"如果這個戒嚴發生在臺灣的話對於這些金融業產生的影響是什麼這個我不做預期不過我想我們從韓國的經驗看到一定會有一些影響好啦我們希望說不要看到戒嚴啦因為你的資金可能就限制外匯管制整個就是大概金融就封掉了另外剛剛講到證券這個當沖降稅來得及來不及"},{"start":493.997,"end":520.947,"text":"我們當然我們現在所有都準備如果說真的能夠當中降稅通過的話那就現況當然問題沒有完全沒有我也期待說我們還有幾次大會的時間如果能夠通過的話對台灣的經濟的穩定還是非常非常有幫助因為我們過去經驗曾經有一次有討論到這個問題就市場產生一些不安的波動那實際上我想這部分我們有過去的經驗我們還是期待能夠"},{"start":521.707,"end":547.476,"text":"我們大家能夠在這個會期比如在今年12月、13月、14月能夠通過這個部分那順利當然前面有委員質詢我們該做的準備我們一個也不會少萬一來不及怎麼辦那就按照回到我們法規的法律的狀態就沒有減半科增我們就開始要花入一些一些的人力時間成本去改變這些我看那個張局長很緊張"},{"start":549.093,"end":559.284,"text":"因為你這一把熱火很熱的一個股市熱絡的情況突然啪降溫那萬一降溫的話"},{"start":560.836,"end":590.037,"text":"想要再恢復會不會很困難所以說希望委員能夠多多多多那個支持讓他趕快通過現在日均量多少現在大概4200多億4000多那當沖的部分占了多少4成4成啊對你4000多欸4624如果怕掉下來的話剩2000多億那影響是很大的啊那確實當沖降稅在很多我們在審查這時候呢他對於我們的成交量的增加是非常明顯的"},{"start":591.764,"end":603.457,"text":"我們希望說迎向未來台灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心勢必要參考一下臨近國家的情況"},{"start":604.52,"end":617.346,"text":"把韓國的一些資源他們的一些流向給導入台灣香港金融地位看我們台灣能不能取代謝謝謝謝委員最後一句現在討論的租賃公司租賃公司現在的糾紛案件到底有幾件"},{"start":628.887,"end":655.304,"text":"因為現在我們沒有在受理這一塊因為那個現在的消費糾紛還是回到原來的我們的消保體制假設未來納入金保法以後呢我們在平益中心就會有明確的統計那你不曉得幾件你為什麼要急著要去管理這些公司這倒不是因為我們看到社會上很多的紛爭而且我們過去一直相信相同的行為要受到相同的類似的管理我們已經看到就是說"},{"start":656.024,"end":675.486,"text":"他們在做很多這些融資待放的時候我覺得這是社會關注的一題其實這本來不是金管會的所俠業務我們覺得說社會對這個期待我們認為說假設能夠以現在金融消保法這樣來管理說不定是一個解決現在對行為所以你如果要管的話請問駐林公司有幾千"},{"start":676.247,"end":693.708,"text":"現在我剛剛講他界限是模糊的但是我們租賃公會裡面大概40家40家租賃公司一共有七、八千家就看你看剛剛的數字你如果要管的話那你應該全部都要那樣管啊你怎麼就管幾家現在說管三家"},{"start":695.389,"end":717.398,"text":"上市的一共有幾家?上市4家我們是分階段因為這是一個試行的過程沒辦法一下子這樣第一階段管3家第二階段什麼時候實施會管7000家我們原本第二階段是半年後半年後是針對我們金融機構轉投資的這些14家"},{"start":721.38,"end":741.231,"text":"十四家所以每一家都要列管不是 它其實上就是只針對它的有金融消費者的爭議那一塊納管不是 我們一直都說金融有消費嘛我就問你說那金融消費有爭議的有幾件我剛才跟委員報告過因為它現在不是我們納管我們沒有去統計這個我跟工會 工會說剩不到三、四件"},{"start":742.511,"end":744.313,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":772.432,"end":788.693,"text":"你要管你要管得有意義而且是一致性的對 當然剛剛講我剛剛也跟委員也就前面也報告過只要這個產業是一個非常非常明確的界限那當然是但是剛剛講我們從早上到現在有人說一千家有人說六千家有人講"},{"start":789.534,"end":802.37,"text":"其實各位就知道那個是現在沒有一個成型的一個產業我們只能是從他那個業務登記上面去推你可能是主委那你這個管完以後下一個你要再管的就是那個地下錢莊"},{"start":803.556,"end":825.677,"text":"沒有 這個不是 我們金融監管有它一定的界限地下錢裝在下面也好 當鋪因為它是一個生態的關係啦如果一般企業它借得到 它直接就跟銀行借啊就是因為銀行借不到 它才會跑去刺激市場對 所以我們才會差異化去處理這個會有它的道理存在"},{"start":826.778,"end":841.993,"text":"委員非常內行就是說我們對他的管理是比較低度只做行為管理就是消費行為管理就做一件事情我還是提醒你就是說不要用大炮打小鳥也不會我們剛剛跟委員報了這差異化已經我們不是用銀行的角度去管理他"},{"start":842.964,"end":870.084,"text":"不是我們是用差異銀行是有機構管理跟消費行為管理他只針對那個部分的個人的消費金融要滿足那幾個要件比如契約公平那個廣告核實然後像比如說KYC那個就是很很基本的這樣而已啊所以我覺得時間關係是是是資料在後補好了是沒問題謝謝謝謝委員謝謝盧文才委員謝謝接著我們請葉元之委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1165,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時55分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["羅委員明才：彭主委，你好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：你一直在推動臺灣成為亞太的資產管理中心。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["羅委員明才：現在的進度不曉得怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在第一階段推出的五大策略、16項措施，都依序在進行中，比如說我們現在有具體的一些做法，跟委員簡單報告一下。第一個，我們壯大投信的部分，現在已經把法規的部分做得差不多了。再來，我們在私人銀行開放，年底大概就會做大幅的放寬。再來就是在高雄專區的部分，我們已經踩點，預計明年7月大概就可以開始運作。我想再來就是我們在壯大股市計畫裡面，還有雙掛牌的部分，日方已經具體的回應，大概今年第三季就可以看到我們的ETF跟日本雙掛牌。還有就是我們的兆元投資計畫，就是擴大國內的資金投入公建，增加相關的金融商品的部分，也都在依序推動。"],["羅委員明才：好，那比特幣的ETF什麼時候會推出？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在是開放專業投資人用複委託的方式去購買比特幣ETF。我們上次有答應立法院，在觀察期六個月以後，再來看它執行成效，接下來看看要怎麼樣去進行下一步。"],["羅委員明才：所以金管會對於虛擬貨幣，現在的態度比較開放，比較友善。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是謹慎、友善。"],["羅委員明才：謹慎、友善，那會支持嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就謹慎、友善。"],["羅委員明才：謹慎、友善。我記得有多次在這邊談過，當初如果有聽我的建議，央行那時候6,000塊美金，現在已經超過10萬塊。然後所有聽央行講話的全部都翻車，全部都翻船。其實另外一個表徵就是扼殺了很多年輕人賺錢的機會，因為在整個資源上來講，傳統業或者是一些電子業，這些產業已經被這些老人全部都占據了，年輕人是沒有出頭的機會，所以這幾年出現了航海王，對不對？因為老人，所有的投信，這些老傢伙沒有人會去看好這個東西，只有年輕人願意去嘗試、去拚。所以當初如果主管機關的態度是謹慎、又開放、又小心、又建議，他只要投資1萬，就可以變成多少？主委你知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：看什麼時候投資。"],["羅委員明才：最早到最近十幾萬一顆，獲利是多少？是萬倍耶！一萬倍以上。大家都想說，怎麼有這些傻瓜會去買這個東西，以前我們比較知識豐富或者比較傳統的，比如說彭教授或比如在座的所有的局長，從我們過去的經驗判斷，這個是不對的，這危險的，對不對？只有誰會去勇於突破，去接受新的挑戰？就是年輕人。試想，不要久，大概六年前，如果臺灣是採取開放的態度，我相信臺灣有很多年輕人在這一波虛擬貨幣的發展，他們是跟上潮流的。你看川普上去了以後，他改變他的思維，美國會不會把虛擬貨幣、虛擬資產，成為他外匯準備的一個儲備？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我看鮑爾是說他們現在沒有這個計畫。"],["羅委員明才：有在討論。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，他們說Fed現在沒有。"],["羅委員明才：是，我希望主委是用比較開闊的心態，因為香港現在比較式微了，新加坡就是一直「沖沖滾」，替代了很多的private banking，很多的資產管理，很多資金金流都跑到新加坡去。川普時代來臨以後大概會面臨改變，主委大概會怎麼判斷，未來整個亞洲金融交易中心會怎麼樣移轉，臺灣應該要掌握什麼契機？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想資金有很多面向，有不同的資金會駐足在不同的地方，因為臺灣是具有投資機會及很多新創潛力的這樣一個有深度的市場，所以我們希望吸引這樣的資金在臺灣來進行所謂的管理。這部分呢，我覺得臺灣的努力，以最近是十年、五年以來的發展，臺灣確實在深度跟廣度上面已經有很大的改變，所以我覺得未來臺灣是有可能在整個亞洲的資產管理部分，占有一席之地。"],["羅委員明才：我們希望一棒接一棒，各個是好棒。今天我們黃天牧前主委也在場，過去黃主委奠定了一個基礎，大概金融圈的感覺就是穩紮穩打很保守。那也不是說不好啦！有好，比如說金融，銀行的獲利以及證券相關，今年大概都已經破紀錄了，接近上兆，表示金融圈大家都是過著快樂的日子。過去穩定的基礎，現在銀行的逾放大概多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：0.16。"],["羅委員明才：0.16。保險的部分，低於資本適足率的現在還有幾家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前一家。"],["羅委員明才：只有一家，有沒有機會救起來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們在努力中。"],["羅委員明才：好，證券也不錯啊！在過去的努力，也破了兩萬點，所以這個基礎都已經打好了，現在接棒就需要更多的開放，更多的點子，彭主委你是點子王啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。"],["羅委員明才：所以我想說你穩健是穩健，希望可以積極。你想想看韓國最近的資金，大幅的外商大竄逃是為什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我也看到亞洲股市裡面大部分都是上漲，比如說像臺灣跟日本大概是兩個，接下來後來香港，而韓國是下跌的，我想他有比較複雜的一個結構。"],["羅委員明才：因為他戒嚴啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那可能有一段長的趨勢。"],["羅委員明才：臺灣有沒有可能會搞戒嚴？"],["彭主任委員金隆：抱歉，委員，我沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["羅委員明才：沒辦法回答，好。我們當然不希望看到戒嚴，可是如果有人心存歹念想要戒嚴，一搞戒嚴的話，對於金融機構會有什麼影響？我們所有的企業，所有民眾的資金會被凍結。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想如果說以韓國的經驗，不管時間多短，但是產生資本市場的波動，大家已經都看到了。"],["羅委員明才：如果這個戒嚴發生在臺灣的話，對於這些金融業產生的影響是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我不做預期，不過我想我們從韓國的經驗看到，一定會有一些影響。"],["羅委員明才：好啦！我們希望不要看到戒嚴，因為你的資金可能就會限制，外匯管制，大概整個金融就瘋掉了。另外，剛剛講到證券，這個當沖降稅來得及來不及？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我們現在所有都準備，如果說真的當沖降稅能夠通過的話，那就是現況，當然完全沒有問題，我也期待貴院還有幾次大會的時間，如果能夠通過的話，對臺灣的經濟穩定還是非常非常有幫助。因為我們過去的經驗，曾經有一次有討論到這個問題，就市場產生一些不安的波動。實際上我想這部分，我們有過去的經驗，我們還是期待能夠在這個會期，比如在今年12月31日，能夠順利通過這個部分。當然前面也有委員質詢到這個部分，我們該做的準備，我們一個也不會少。"],["羅委員明才：萬一來不及怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那就回到我們法規的、法律的狀態，就沒有減半課徵，我們就開始要花入一些的人力、時間成本，去改變這些相關的……"],["羅委員明才：我看張局長很緊張，因為這一把熱火，很熱的一個股市熱絡的情況，突然「啪！」降溫，那萬一降溫的話，想要再恢復會不會很困難？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以說希望委員能夠多多支持，讓它趕快通過。"],["羅委員明才：現在日均量多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在大概四千兩百多億。"],["羅委員明才：四千多，那當沖的部分占了多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：四成。"],["羅委員明才：四成，你四千多，如果「啪！」掉下來的話剩兩千多億，那影響是很大的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實當沖降稅在審查的時候，它對於我們的成交量的增加是非常明顯的。"],["羅委員明才：我們希望迎向未來臺灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心，勢必要參考一下鄰近國家的情況，把韓國的一些資源，他們的一些流向，可以導入臺灣。香港的金融地位，看我們臺灣能不能取代，這個要多加油！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的期許。"],["羅委員明才：另外最後一句，現在討論的租賃公司，現在的糾紛案件到底有幾件？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們沒有受理這一塊，因為現在的消費糾紛，還是回到原來的消保體制，假設未來納入金保法以後，我們在評議中心就會有明確的統計。"],["羅委員明才：你不曉得幾件，為什麼要急著要去管理這些公司？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這倒不是，因為我們看到社會上很多的紛爭，而且我們過去一直相信，相同的行為要受到相同的、類似的管理。我們已經看到他們在做很多融資貸放的時候，我覺得這是社會關注的議題，其實這本來不是金管會的所轄業務，我們覺得社會對這個期待，我們認為假設能夠以現在的金融消保法來管理，說不定是一個解決現在對行為……"],["羅委員明才：你如果要管的話，請問租賃公司有幾間？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才講它的界線是模糊的，但是我們租賃公會裡面，大概40家。"],["羅委員明才：幾家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：40家。"],["羅委員明才：40家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員明才：租賃公司一共有七、八千家啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛那個數字……"],["羅委員明才：你如果要管的話，那你應該全部都要納管，你怎麼只有管幾家，現在說要管3家，你知道上市的一共有幾家租賃公司？"],["彭主任委員金隆：上市4家。"],["羅委員明才：4家你管3家，另外一家不管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我們是分階段，我剛才講過，我們是分階段，因為這是一個試行的過程，沒辦法一下子這樣，所以我們會分階段。"],["羅委員明才：好，那第一階段管3家，第二階段什麼時候實施，會管7,000家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們原本第二階段是半年後，半年後是針對金融機構轉投資的這14家。"],["羅委員明才：14家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員明才：所以每一家都要列管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，就是只針對有金融消費者爭議那一塊納管。"],["羅委員明才：不是，我們一直都說金融消費，我就問你金融消費有爭議的有幾件？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才跟委員報告過，因為它現在不是我們轄管，我們沒有去統計這個……"],["羅委員明才：我問公會，公會說剩不到3、4件。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這樣很好，如果它這樣的話，接下來只是轄管，增加他們社會的信賴感，我覺得是很好啦！雙贏。"],["羅委員明才：你要管就7,000家全管，什麼管3家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想委員非常清楚，像這種……"],["羅委員明才：還有你講公會，公會的人說你要管公會，那他退出公會就好了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這樣的話我們會有相應作法，我想這個是要社會溝通。"],["羅委員明才：主委，要管，這是一個思考的方向，你管要管的適當，你要管的有意義，而且是一致性的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然，我剛才也跟委員報告過，假如這個產業是有一個非常非常明確的界線，那當然是，但是剛剛講，我們從早上到現在有人說1,000家，有人說6,000家，其實各位就知道，那個現在沒有成形的一個產業，我們只能從業務登記上面去推它可能是，其實它不見得是。"],["羅委員明才：主委，你這個管完以後，下一個你要再管的就是地下錢莊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，這個不是，我們金融監管有一定的界線。"],["羅委員明才：地下錢莊再下面還有當鋪，因為這是一個生態的關係。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當舖現在應該在管理中。"],["羅委員明才：如果一般企業借得到，它直接就跟銀行借，就是因為銀行借不到，才會跑去次級市場。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們才會差異化去處理。"],["羅委員明才：這個會有它的道理存在。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，委員非常內行，就是說我們對它的管理是比較低度，只做行為管理，就是消費行為管理。"],["羅委員明才：主委，最後一件事情我還是提醒你，不要用大砲打小鳥。"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不會，我們剛剛跟委員報告，我們是差異化，不是用銀行的角度去管理，不是。銀行是有機構管理跟消費行為管理，只針對那個部分個人的消費金融要滿足那幾個要件，比如契約公平、廣告核實，然後像比如說KYC，那個就是很基本的這樣而已。"],["羅委員明才：因為時間關係，資料再後補好了，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員。接著我們請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司（僅詢答）；三、審查中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管：\n（僅詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1140901_00002"}}},{"id":"158256","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37777873656546750d93959067f96cd253481301b577a5e503b311b467971f73158e5f3beada05b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:47:11 - 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險股份"},{"start":507.245,"end":510.546,"text":"好那請給本席相關資料是沒問題好不好謝謝好謝謝洪邦凱委員主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1118,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時47分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委，現在真的大家對於金管會期待非常高，尤其是在打擊金融犯罪、金融詐騙這一塊，本席上午也看到您針對內湖1,200萬元這個詐騙輕生案的部分有說做了相關的了解，我們更想要請教一下，到底這個案件裡面在銀行端部分或是這些相關的，還有什麼可以再更精進的地方？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想其實任何一個案子我們都非常關切跟注意，因為我們在建構整個金融阻詐網的時候，任何一個案例都給我們很寶貴的經驗去檢視這些作為是怎麼樣。我跟委員簡單報告，因為詳細的內容我不方便講太多，比如裡面有一種做法可能是利用網銀小額轉帳，從個人轉帳，我們過去對網銀的小額轉帳是比較沒有戒心，比如5萬、10萬，我從我的戶頭轉給這些帳戶，因為我們過去的網銀非約轉帳戶就是幾萬幾萬可以轉到一些戶頭去，這個是個人在操作的部分，我們發覺這也變成他們在使用的一個方法，過去我們並沒有針對這方面，因為他自己在那邊操作，沒有人可以針對他做一些關懷，這是一個。另外一個當然現在很多的趨勢是用面交，因為他知道我的錢……"],["洪委員孟楷：阻斷金流嘛，不要有金流留下紀錄，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：面交就是錢不用匯的，直接交給車手或交給這個人，因為他知道金融機構現在越來越麻煩，會問一大堆。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以像這些東西我們也都不斷在精進我們的想法，還有就是臨櫃關懷的部分，因為他們現在很多教戰守則做得非常的精細，所以這部分我們要想辦法，比如從這個案例能夠想到一些問題，能夠告訴我們其他第一線的銀行員增加一些警戒，我想這些都是我們從很多地方看到的，因為整個詐騙是一個非常、非常複雜的過程，但是我們希望從中間得到一些教訓。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是很明顯的，其實銀行的很多行員現在也是叫苦連天。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，很辛苦。"],["洪委員孟楷：第一線的銀行行員也覺得他們有苦難言。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們真的要給他們很大的鼓勵。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，他已經給予很多的溝通或是關懷、甚至已經提醒了，但是如果沒有辦法，到最後有些時候銀行可能會怕得罪客戶。"],["彭主任委員金隆：他這時候通常會請警察過來。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：警察一過來通常很多人就醒過來了。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席從過去到現在，特別提到最重點還是在於帳戶，有一些警示、異樣的帳戶，或是特別獨特、特別異常的帳戶，這些應該要有示警的作用。如果錢都還在臺灣境內的銀行裡面，相對好追蹤，但只要錢一流出到國外，或是流到虛擬貨幣的話，其實就相對難追蹤，在這個部分有沒有什麼更精進的作為？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個其實可以來做一個思考，這個是最難的部分，因為金流速度非常快，而且你也不知道他的對象，除非已經被警示，你當然知道他在哪裡，但是我覺得這個真的是要大家來想想辦法。我們也看到很多詐騙會得逞，錢流到海外我們就斷線了，要不然就是流到海外，已經換成了比如說虛擬資產，那個追蹤會更不容易，當然就提現掉了，就被提現走了，就是很快的在提款機……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，主委，我們比較具體的討論這個部分，因為本席從過去到現在都一直認為詐騙這個問題很嚴重，只要金管會能夠適時扮演積極的角色，可能就會更容易防止，增加犯罪集團拿到錢的成本，就是增加犯罪集團拿到錢的困難度，這樣我們就可以多一分防詐的準備。","我請教就是比如說匯款的狀況，我現在沒有約定帳戶的部分，可能匯款50萬、100萬都會被警示，甚至要再提出相關的證明。那一樣嘛！如果今天匯款到國外的帳戶，或是說到虛擬帳戶的時候，有沒有這樣的一個金額的限制，甚至更加嚴謹來阻擋詐騙集團取款的容易度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們11月30號通過打詐四子法，有關打詐專法第八條到第十一條的規定，其中有一個條文就是所有的疑似樣態，我們就把它公布，把它揭示出來。像剛才講的，這個樣態我們現在揭露很多，這沒有錯，但這個是我們要持續的滾動才能知道他新的方法。這部分不管是銀行局或銀行公會都持續在做深化，因為要累積很多的個案。我們現在還有很多銀行是採用所謂AI，他們就利用那個數據，從已經詐騙的數據資料裡面去做一個模型，預測這個帳戶未來產生詐騙的可能性有多高，做事前攔阻，這是未來我們需要要朝這個方向來走，科技打詐。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，科技打詐，但是本席的問題還是在於，你要設定相關的門檻，不要到最後讓大家覺得我們一般的用戶使用都非常困難。我的印象中，如果你沒有去設定，我光是自己要提款提個20萬，可能一天就有上限了，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：結果沒有想到，如果詐騙集團要轉到國外，或是轉到虛擬帳戶的時候，反而相對來講，比一般我要使用自己的帳戶都還要容易，這樣就不對了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在已經有要求每個銀行對疑似帳戶都要做控管，這沒有問題，只是說我們控管的方法有沒有真的達到全面的效果，真的要好好的再來精進。"],["洪委員孟楷：這部分再給本席相關的資料，你們現在到底做到什麼樣一個程度，以及你們的預防措施，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後我也要提一下，現在看到這樣一個詐騙的部分，因為之前我對數位發展部也有要求，你們也有講到在這一次，其實也看得出來，像這一次內湖的詐騙案件，他其實還是從臉書廣告、投放、投資群組過來。其實這也是一個老問題，因為數位發展部提出來的詐騙app裡面，所謂的廣告樣態，90%都是從臉書Meta這樣的母企業，或是他衍生的社群媒體平台來的。","我們現在針對源頭管理的部分，也不要所有事情全都讓銀行當第一線，我覺得銀行的主要業務也不是打詐，當然要協助政府來打擊詐騙，但是銀行本身來講，他們也覺得他們是金融服務啊！源頭管理如果一直沒有辦法停止的話，怎麼樣有辦法去嚇阻或是降低這個詐騙？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實喔……"],["洪委員孟楷：臉書的部分，現在數位發展部是說現在投放廣告要實名制，這是一個，這樣追得到源頭，但另外一個部分，當這樣的投資詐騙廣告一直層出不窮的時候，金管會能夠有什麼樣的作為？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們有一個團隊專門來蒐報這些，我們已經蒐報了六萬多個內容。我們每天都有專業團在蒐報，我們希望縮短他被接觸的時間，然後通知Meta他們或是相關的趕快下架。因為他收到我們通知，24小時就要下架，我們盡量去縮短這個時間，我們現在正在做這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候建置這個團隊？是外包還是金管會內部？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是金管會外包，委託我們的周邊單位來做這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：周邊單位？"],["彭主任委員金隆：交易所、櫃買，還有我們的公會，這幾個期交所之類的6個單位。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，是不是可以提供相關資料給本席參考，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：從什麼時候開始了──這一些單位？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個一直持續在做，但是我們要持續優化那個作為，因為你要去扒這些廣告，他們會不斷變形，比如說前面是用名人，接下來送名人書，其實很多種方法一直在改變，所以這個都要持續改，這個是現在進行式。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，請給本席相關資料好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。接下來我們請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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的事項,當然就是平民部裡面法官就本身第一個就不是一自決或是平民部已經找不到的、銷毀的那這就當作沒有一自決那這樣子的話其實總長那這樣子非常上訴的比例會非常非常非常高喔你那30件沒有平民部的等於全部都非常上訴然後再加上"},{"start":326.755,"end":329.498,"text":"稍後再請教一下到底誰可以去申請去看這個評議部"},{"start":349.059,"end":350.06,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":372.091,"end":390.285,"text":"最高法院去申請的時候最高法院說你不是當事人因為這刑事法規定的你不是當事人所以拒絕那他拜託台高檢的高雄分署去幫他申請結果我們的高雄分署"},{"start":392.267,"end":396.23,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":416.124,"end":426.555,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":440.128,"end":441.429,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":460.658,"end":462.5,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":482.618,"end":490.472,"text":"所以當然我將來我還是會去請教在合法範圍內我會去請教那個高雄高分檢是怎麼回事請他們能夠"},{"start":492.544,"end":512.473,"text":"我們了解一下狀況是怎麼樣,我還是這樣,我絕對不干涉個案,但是我希望通案的去了解,會不會國家還有其他人遇到一樣的狀況。就是他無處可申約嘛,整個國家又沒有幫他,那這時候我們這樣做對嗎?司法是保護人民,是維護社會正義,還是司法是找人家麻煩?"},{"start":514.514,"end":534.244,"text":"委員這個簡單一句話,委員講這個,因為這個案子我們也注意到,因為這個案子判決確定,所以我們現在正在研究,是不是體體非常上訴,謝謝沒有,我剛剛在談的不是這個,我剛剛在談的是家屬申請評議部,那個是無期徒刑確定,這跟非常上訴無關,總統還是要麻煩您聽我的問題啦"},{"start":540.693,"end":559.72,"text":"議員報告因為評議部是法院司法院所以這個問題是要請問司法院因為法務部我們無從去處理評議部不是不是你弄錯你們都弄錯部長你不能這樣亂打喔你這樣亂打我覺得你真的很沒意思因為案子確定後了我跟你說"},{"start":560.97,"end":586.801,"text":"可以來申請月覽評議部的有被告有檢察官但是死者家屬不能申請嘛所以他今天能做的就是問院方我可不可以申請評議部院方說你不行你不是當事人這時候如果檢察官願意幫他申請的話他也可以啊但他今天得到的結論是檢察官不願意欸欸我不知道部長中央你們是假裝聽不懂我的話嗎我覺得我講得很清楚啊"},{"start":589.942,"end":617.76,"text":"公文報告啦,當然只是因為已經確定進入執行的話當然已經沒有刑訴法的適用這要回到政府資訊公開法或是檔案法的規定檔案法,但如果已經確定的話規檔就檔案法去適用如果沒有的話政府資訊公開法來閱覽但是它有另外一個前提因為是評議部另外我們法院組織法106條就這個閱覽有一個特別的規定沒有老師謝謝你來你看一下那個公文幫我把公文放出來你看一下高分檢是怎麼回他的"},{"start":618.921,"end":634.133,"text":"麻煩你們看一下右邊那個他是說本案非死刑判決案件沒有調閱的必要性我今天就這公文的去請教當然法規你說用法規去告訴人民不行那我們公文上面寫清楚"},{"start":635.094,"end":640.638,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":663.835,"end":691.819,"text":"我也覺得高雄高分遣不能這樣欺負當事人嘛那你告訴他法規說不行那我們可以接受但你不能講這個說啊不是死刑案件沒有調閱的必要那那這樣家屬當然會覺得他是個孤兒啊各位報告啊這個台中高雄高分遣可能誤會委員要調閱的意思啦所以他以為是殺人的案件事實上這個案子是判無極度刑的案件跟現罷108其實是沒有關係的他可能誤會了委員的意思"},{"start":693.58,"end":720.751,"text":"但是我看到高雄高分解還是這樣嘛那高雄高分解是不是要出來解釋為什麼是這個說法或是他們能不能夠引用正確的條文去給家屬回覆那家屬他再依據看有什麼政治的方式像譬如說老師剛剛說的那個資訊公開法用那個方式去申請調閱那這是另外一個層次的問題所以這個部分可能要麻煩你們給我一個回覆好嗎"},{"start":721.533,"end":722.314,"text":"稍等稍等稍等稍等"},{"start":740.629,"end":742.55,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":758.78,"end":767.125,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":789.296,"end":814.817,"text":"憲判8出來之後我們國家司法體系一定會再被人民不信任我跟你保證因為人民不像我們念法律我已經是檢查體系出來我已經很能夠跟常常我都跟家屬解釋這不是檢察官的錯不是法官的錯是制度法律沒有修正前只能這樣但是我跟你保證民眾都聽不懂所以在民眾的眼裡就是這個王八蛋政府整天在那邊不保護我們"},{"start":816.115,"end":844.42,"text":"我很多次用力跟他們解釋但是他們聽不進去所以憲法發出來其實造成的問題很多不管是以自決不管是最嚴重到目前都很惹出很多的麻煩性那當然我有多次說其實就是法官在造法法官根本不應該侵害到立法權以及檢察官跟法官的獨立偵查或獨立審判權我都覺得這不是他們能夠去干涉的那另外"},{"start":845.22,"end":860.128,"text":"其實我們這次三、七個人裡面有一個黃春琦跟陳逸龍的那個案子他是非常久以前的案子然後他們是唯一死刑嘛那這個勢必會被非常上訴一定會的嘛因為大法官已經有交代了"},{"start":861.108,"end":874.06,"text":"回到普通法院我會跟各位報告還是之前有請教過總長跟部長的問題他們沒有符合羈押的要件他有逃亡之餘嗎?他有篡政之餘嗎?二、三十年前的案子他要篡什麼政、滅什麼政?"},{"start":876.542,"end":877.883,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":904.958,"end":929.146,"text":"就不符合刑事訴訟法101跟101之一的羈押要件。那我們一直講,很多實務的也出來講,現在就只有政客跟政客跟那些側翼整天說不可能,叫我們不要危言聳聽。但是你我我們都是,都是司法官出來的,你們也一定懂我在講什麼。那這會是一個很大的問題啦齁。那就像我剛剛講那個黃春祺他們兩個人,他們還適用10年就可以假釋的規定。"},{"start":930.666,"end":957.929,"text":"他行為實施在最早期的法律規定10年就可以扣掉羈押的時間他在如果判無期徒刑確定他不用5、6年就出來了啊那這個社會上面會不會害怕那辱人勒俗欸這真的很可怕齁所以這部分要麻煩要以娼生為念啦雖然部裡面也娼生為念那我希望說要真的要麻煩一下齁那另外齁再給我一分"},{"start":960.403,"end":964.328,"text":"先處理會議時間,上午會議時間繼續進行到排定法案審查完畢為止。"},{"start":972.554,"end":975.675,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":990.24,"end":1016.979,"text":"所以不管是檢察官助理的法案推動或相關法案推動或者是打詐法案我都是盡全力的幫忙我並不是說對院檢有仇恨沒有我反而是希望讓我們的院檢能夠走向人民越來越支持所以在這幾個法案以及檢清檢察官跟法官工作量的這幾個法案我都是到處去遊說其他的立委一定要幫忙不要找麻煩所以你們也很清楚從一開始對檢察官助理"},{"start":1018.426,"end":1019.548,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1036.024,"end":1039.868,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":1064.173,"end":1079.714,"text":"公務員報告委員所提到的網路流量紀錄相關的14條之一第2項或是相關執法事實上我們已經完成在預告程序當中了事實上它可以在近期內就"},{"start":1080.915,"end":1101.801,"text":"請問是外部監督單位還是內部監督單位?原則上他是內部監督單位,內控機制。因為你們還沒有推出來,那我再提醒一下,像德國他就是設置外部的中立單位,因為今天如果說我們收集資料的單位跟管考的單位保存跟監督的單位,"},{"start":1102.521,"end":1125.789,"text":"是同一單位或是類似的平常都在一起的單位其實民眾還是會打一個問號那這部分再麻煩老師這邊能夠想一下看能不能夠有什麼去修正能夠讓人民更信任那另外還有一個就是說調閱的部分因為通報法15條其實有某些範圍是檢警可以先就是自行去調閱"},{"start":1126.969,"end":1149.689,"text":"那這個自行去調閱的這個部分,到底有沒有監督?那有沒有中立的監督機制?自行調閱的部分。各位報告,所有相關在11條裡面包括我們職權調取,或者是都在我們這個不在執法裡面的監控範圍,監督的範圍。它的授權規定是包括所有的,所有的調閱都包括。"},{"start":1150.129,"end":1170.814,"text":"包括剛剛委員所提的這個不需要調取票的職權調取的部分,特定犯罪的部分也是要在內控的範圍內內控。就同一個內控機制。對對對。好,那沒關係,那我知道你們的想法。那有沒有想過說這些民眾,因為很多案子我們以前也知道,他這案下去查一查之後發現他"},{"start":1171.914,"end":1173.798,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1183.786,"end":1189.508,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":1212.014,"end":1229.164,"text":"各位報告通保法它關於這個救濟的話我們在刑訴的416條它有一個準看高的一個救濟機制嘛倒是這個司法警察的這部分那目前法制上也許還不夠完備那檢察官的調取票的部分他就循416的準看高去處理"},{"start":1230.572,"end":1233.273,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":1256.124,"end":1262.192,"text":"那是不是說這麼高的一筆錢給你們那你們還是要說清楚是怎麼用細節怎麼用"},{"start":1264.383,"end":1287.194,"text":"那我們還是要知道啦,就是說這不是小數目,所以細項還是要給我們,讓我們清楚一下那甚至就是說我很在意的一個就是你調取到的資料是由監控,誰監控或是誰保存那這個機制有沒有做好,其實已經上路幾個月都還沒有出來喔,這個然後我們又花了國家那麼多錢"},{"start":1289.235,"end":1316.572,"text":"這個也不太對,所以這部分麻煩你們能夠給我們比較詳細的資料。報告委員,這個整個大的計畫是編在內政部警政署。那有關這個網路流量的後端的分析,我們是包含在這個大的計畫裡面。那因為現在整個的設備都還沒有完全建置起來,所以目前是都沒有的。只是說在法規上,未來這個都必須要有令狀才能夠來執行。"},{"start":1317.873,"end":1341.922,"text":"好那這樣我知道就好那最後我就跟你們提一下就是我希望有幾個東西要麻煩你們回覆一下啦大概就是說我剛剛提到的那個內機內控這個整個配套措施還有調取的比例還有內部審核準博的那個數據希望給我們一下還有調取成功之後呢起訴跟定罪如果有的話"},{"start":1342.842,"end":1370.863,"text":"如果還沒有就沒關係如果已經有案例的話那麻煩這個例子能夠給我們那我稍微去了解一下這個偵查手段比例原則為什麼會要求這樣是因為我們看了之前那個反滲透法抓了一堆人結果後來起訴的比例並沒有很高啊很多後來是簽結或不起訴嘛那我們要去看一下一個法規推出或一個行政行為出來之後他對於人民的侵害比例原則上有沒有問題"},{"start":1371.764,"end":1371.784,"text":"稅務部長"},{"start":1401.704,"end":1403.667,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1418.946,"end":1427.839,"text":"對於吳宗憲委員所提出的相關問題請法務部在一個月或調局在一個月之內提出具體詳細的書面說明。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1457,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時42分）謝謝，我們麻煩部長還有總長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長、總長，午安。我這邊想要跟兩位就教的主要是評議簿的問題，其實我們都知道評議簿這個東西就是法官他們在做判決的時候，各個法官在評議簿上面各自對於這個判決的結論去留下紀錄、留下意見，所以當意見不一樣的時候，在合議庭的意見不一樣的時候，其實是少數服從多數。但是在這一次憲判8號出來之後，大法官是要求普通法院法官他如果要判死刑必須要一致決，當然這個一致決現在有很多的爭議，先姑且不論將來的問題，我們先討論37件已經死刑判決的案子，我先請教總長，因為這是通案性討論的一個議題啦！總長，如果我們就這37位死刑犯來講，而且評議簿還在的時候，如果有看到一位法官當初是不同意，請問是不是就要提非常上訴？總長，要麻煩你快一點。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我們現在37件裡面，有30件是沒有評議簿的，7件是有的，目前統計是這樣子。如果說……"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意思是說，如果還有評議簿的，如果裡面有看到確實是有一位合議庭的法官當時是不支持判死刑，這樣子的話，你是不是會提起非常上訴？這個是很重大人命關天的事，麻煩你們真的要認真面對。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我們現在全面把所有的資料都調過來，也發了很多資料給相關的律師，現在30件沒有評議簿，7件有，如果說它沒有一致決的話，我們依法來提起非常上訴。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就我剛剛所理解，跟總長報告一下，這37位不管是被害者或者是被告，都是人命的問題，所以要麻煩最高檢這邊真的要審慎，要很嚴謹地去面對，這件事情不是在開玩笑，因為畢竟人命關天。我現在得到的資訊是，目前找得到評議簿的，如果在評議簿裡面發現曾經有法官不支持死刑，就是最終審的法官不支持死刑的話，就會提非常上訴。","再來，我下一個問題是，有30件評議簿銷毀了，沒有辦法證明是一致判死，請問總長，目前這個要怎麼處理？因為這都是社會的議題嘛！這個東西我在很久之前就已經提出來了，我不知道最高檢這邊有沒有任何作為、任何因應？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：有，如果沒有評議簿的話，我們基本上就推定它是沒有一致決，以被告最有利來做處理。我也跟委員報告，所有資料現在在我們這邊，已經有33件辯護人來聲請閱卷，13件完成閱卷，我們預計在今年年底以前完成31件閱卷，然後我們也寫了一些通知書給這些辯護律師，希望他們能夠儘速來閱卷，通知他們，等於是提醒他們，如果在這方面有違背法令的話，希望律師在10天內能向本署提起非常上訴。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，我的問題很簡單，只是說評議簿銷毀的部分怎麼處理，我並沒有請教到律師的部分，所以目前總長您的標準就是30件評議簿已經銷毀的，就要當作是沒有一致決要提非常上訴，是這個意思嘛！目前評議簿還在的部分，有沒有一致決的嗎？有沒有沒有一致決的？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我們現在有跟相關單位要到這些評議簿，現在要到的有7件，都是有一致決的，7件都有一致決。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，7件有一致決，那萬一要非常上訴，這7件可能就是以其他理由非常上訴，而跟一致決無關嘛！跟一致決有關的，當然就是評議簿裡面，第一個，法官本身就不是一致決或是評議簿已經找不到的、銷毀的，這個就會當作沒有一致決，那這樣子的話，總長，非常上訴的比率會非常、非常、非常高哦！你那30件沒有評議簿的等於全部都非常上訴，然後再加上就算有一致決的，可能還有其他理由，因為大法官講了很多理由嘛！好，那這樣我們就知道，也讓社會釋疑，因為這個標準到今天我們才知道，社會也才會聽到。","我再請教一下，我今天還有一個問題，就是到底誰可以聲請去看評議簿？從這一次師鐸獎女教師的案子來看，我們發現了一個狀況，這個被告後來被判無期徒刑確定，他在憲判8一出來的兩週內就判決確定了，確定之後是無期徒刑，所以當家屬希望去瞭解評議簿裡面到底法官的想法是什麼的時候，發生了一個問題，他向最高法院去聲請的時候，最高法院說你不是當事人，因為這是刑事訴訟法規定的，你不是當事人，所以拒絕。那他拜託臺高檢的高雄分署去幫他聲請，結果高雄分署竟然回復他說因為不是判死刑，所以你也沒有必要聲請，對於這個死者的家屬而言，他只跟我講了一句話，他說我好像是被這個國家拋棄的孤兒。","他的太太被殺死了，然後法院本來判被告死刑，最後改為無期徒刑，上訴被駁回確定，他希望知道發生了什麼事情，結果院方跟他說你不是當事人不可以聲請，檢方跟他說本案不是判死刑所以沒有聲請的必要，就沒有人幫他了，這樣對嗎？我們的司法到底是在保障人民，還是在找人民麻煩？其實這段時間我一直陪著他們的家人一路走過來，我們真的能夠體會他的痛苦耶！他每一次跟我見面，每一次在流眼淚，已經10年了，他們根本傷痛都沒有少過一分啊！今天被告把他的太太殺死了，被告把他們的媽媽殺死了，我們沒有辦法回到過去去挺身而出，去救那個被殺死的女教師，結果這麼多年下來，我們的司法把他改判無期徒刑，好！我尊重你法官改判無期徒刑，結果他今天希望去看評議簿，檢方也不准，院方也不准，所以他才講那一句話，我是這個國家的孤兒，因為整個國家體系沒有人在幫我。","當然將來我還是會去請教，在合法範圍內我會去請教高雄高分檢是怎麼回事，讓我們瞭解一下狀況是怎麼樣，那我還是這樣，我絕對不干涉個案，但是我希望通案的去瞭解會不會國家還有其他人遇到一樣的狀況，就是他無處可申冤嘛！整個國家又沒有幫他，那這時候我們這樣做對嗎？司法是保護人民，是維護社會正義，還是司法是找人家麻煩？總長。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：簡單一句話，委員講的這個案子我們也注意到，因為這個案子判決確定了，所以我們現在正在研究是不是提起非常上訴，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我剛剛在談的不是這個，我剛剛在談的是家屬聲請調閱評議簿，那個是無期徒刑確定，跟非常上訴無關，總長，還是要麻煩您聽我的問題啦！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：評議簿的話，它對外是不公開的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為評議簿是法院、司法院，所以這個問題要請問司法院，我們法務部無從去處理評議簿可不可以閱覽的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是、不是，你們都弄錯，部長，你不能這樣亂答哦！你這樣亂答我覺得你真的很沒意思，因為案子確定後了，我跟你說，可以來聲請閱覽評議簿的有被告、有檢察官，但是死者家屬不能聲請，所以他今天能做的就是問院方我可不可以聲請評議簿，院方說你不行，你不是當事人，這時候如果檢察官願意幫他聲請的話，他也可以啊！但是他今天得到的結論是檢察官不願意耶！我不知道部長、總長你們是假裝聽不懂我的話嗎？我覺得我講得很清楚啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個案子已經確定進入執行的話，已經沒有刑訴法的適用，這要回到政府資訊公開法或是檔案法的規定。如果已經確定的話，歸檔了就檔案法去適用，如果沒有的話，政府資訊公開法來閱覽，但是另外有一個前提，因為是評議簿，我們法院組織法第一百零六條就這個閱覽有一個特別的規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒問題，老師，謝謝你。你看一下高分檢是怎麼回他的，麻煩你們看右邊那個公文，它是說本案非死刑判決案件，沒有調閱的必要性欸！我今天就這個公文去請教，你說用法規去告訴人民不行，在公文上面寫清楚，他們講出來，我也會說法規規定這樣，我們只能朝向修法去處理，可是老師，今天它直接說不是判死刑案件，這是高分檢回給家屬的文啊！所以我的意見在這裡。","刑九庭回的我就不講，因為今天司法院沒有在這裡，所以我就不談，司法院說他不是當事人，當然我們依照刑事訴訟法第三條，我也可以理解，但是檢方給他的回復是這樣，家屬一定會跳腳，我看完我也覺得高雄高分檢不能這樣欺負當事人嘛！你告訴他法規說不行，這我們可以接受，但是你不能說這個不是死刑案件、沒有調閱的必要，那這樣家屬當然會覺得他是個孤兒啊！"],["黃次長謀信：高雄高分檢可能誤會委員要調閱的意思啦！它以為是殺人案件，事實上這個案子是判無期徒刑的案件，跟憲判字8號其實是沒有關係的，它可能誤會了委員的意思。"],["吳委員宗憲：那不管，但是我看到高雄高分檢的函是這樣嘛！高雄高分檢是不是要出來解釋為什麼是這個說法，或是他們能不能夠引用正確的條文去給家屬回復，然後家屬再看要依據什麼正式的方式，譬如老師剛剛說的資訊公開法，用那個方式去申請調閱，這是另外一個層次的問題，所以這個部分可能要麻煩你們給我一個回復好嗎？麻煩你們要這樣子。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實最近很多案子，因為法官所謂的是不是最嚴重之罪或者是說不判死，其實已經到不可思議的程度了，就像前幾天鬧出來輪胎行燒死8個人那件事情一樣，當然法官他判無期徒刑的理由是說被告自首，但是在我所知道的，刑法第六十二條修法之後，自首其實是得減輕其刑，也就是法官他會去審酌被告的作為跟發生結果的嚴重性，但是你看8個人裡面，一等親直系血親，尊親屬也被他燒死了，卑親屬也被他燒死了，太太也被他燒死了，也就是說親等非常近的家屬幾乎被他燒光了，結果法官還認為在得減輕其刑的情況下，他還是符合，就把他減為無期徒刑，這個是法官的事啦！這個是法官的事，沒有要請教部長。","在我看來，我覺得憲判8出來之後，我們國家司法體系一定會再被人民不信任，我跟你保證，因為人民不像我們念法律，我已經是檢察體系出來，我常常都跟家屬解釋，這不是檢察官的錯，不是法官的錯，而是制度，法律沒有修正前只能這樣。但是我跟你保證民眾都聽不懂，在民眾的眼裡就是這個王八蛋政府整天在那邊不保護我們，那我很多次用力跟他們解釋，但是他們聽不進去，所以憲判8號出來，其實造成的問題很多，不管是一致決，不管是最嚴重，到目前都惹出很多的麻煩性。當然我也多次說這其實是法官在造法，法官根本不應該侵害到立法權以及檢察官跟法官的獨立偵查或獨立審判權，我都覺得這不是他們能夠去干涉的。","另外，這一次37個人裡面，有一個黃春棋跟陳憶隆的案子，它是非常久以前的案子，然後他們是唯一死刑，這個勢必會被非常上訴，一定會的嘛！因為大法官已經有交代了。好，回到普通法院，我跟各位報告，還是之前有請教過總長跟部長的問題，他們沒有符合羈押的要件，他有逃亡之虞嗎？他有串證之虞嗎？二、三十年前的案子，他要串什麼證、滅什麼證？那他有沒有逃亡之虞？我跟你講，他還活在那個只有BB Call的年代，他在裡面關了二十幾年，跟外界也沒有聯繫，他要怎麼跑？所以將來他們會不會符合羈押的要件，我都整天在擔心這件事情，將來是不是對這37個有要另立專法，真的要請法務部去思考一下，有沒有必要另立一個專法專門針對這37個？因為這37個裡面，有非常多人根本就不符合刑事訴訟法第一百零一條跟第一百零一條之一的羈押要件，那我們一直講，很多實務的也出來講，現在就只有政客跟那些側翼整天說不可能，叫我們不要危言聳聽，但是你我都是司法官出來的，你們一定懂我在講什麼，這會是一個很大的問題啦！","就像我剛剛講黃春棋他們兩個人，他們還適用10年就可以假釋的規定，他行為時是在最早期的法律規定，10年就可以，扣掉羈押的時間，如果判無期徒刑確定，他不用5、6年就出來啦！這個社會上面會不會害怕？那是擄人勒贖欸！這真的很可怕，所以這部分麻煩要以蒼生為念，部裡面要以蒼生為念，真的要麻煩一下。再給我1分鐘。"],["主席：我先處理會議時間：我們上午的會議繼續進行到排定的法案審查完畢為止。請繼續。"],["吳委員宗憲：主席，不好意思。","另外，有幾個跟預算有關的，因為我這一段時間，在立法院10個月，其實你們應該很清楚，這段時間我一直拚命幫院檢在解決問題，不管是檢察官助理的法案推動或相關法案推動，或者是打詐法案，我都是盡全力的幫忙，我並不是對院檢有仇恨，沒有，我反而是希望讓我們的院檢能夠走向人民越來越支持，所以在這幾個法案，以及減輕檢察官跟法官工作量的這幾個法案，我都是到處去遊說其他的立委一定要幫忙，不要找麻煩。你們也很清楚，從一開始對於檢察官助理，很多人是很敵視，到最後大家回過頭來支持，我真的花很多心思希望我們的司法能夠更被尊重、更被信任，所以我也很希望當我們挑出問題的時候，不是我在找麻煩，是真的麻煩你們要能夠把問題解決一下，然後我們就可以跟廣大的民眾講其實司法一直在努力、在改善中。","我請教一下，上次通過打詐四法，已經讓檢警可以瀏覽很多網路上的紀錄內容。當時我們在質詢的時候其實也一直提到一個點，就是有沒有任何保存、監督或管考的單位？不知道你們設計好了沒？因為法案已經上路好久啦！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於委員所提到與網路流量紀錄相關的第十四條之一第六項或相關子法，事實上我們已經研擬完成，在預告程序當中了，近期內就可以推出。"],["吳委員宗憲：請問是外部監督單位還是內部監督單位？"],["黃次長謀信：原則上是內部監督單位，屬於內控機制。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，因為你們還沒有推出來，那我再提醒一下，像德國就是設置外部的中立單位。如果蒐集資料的單位、管考單位跟保存及監督單位是同一單位、或是類似平常都在一起的單位，其實民眾還是會打一個問號。這部分再麻煩老師想一下，看看能不能夠作什麼修正，讓人民更信任。","另外還有一點，就是調閱的部分。根據通保法第十五條，其實某些範圍是檢警可以自行調閱的，那麼對於自行調閱的部分到底有沒有監督？有沒有中立的監督機制？我是指自行調閱的部分。"],["黃次長謀信：我剛剛有跟委員報告，在第十一條裡面，包括職權調取，都在子法的監督範圍內。它的授權規定是包括所有調閱，包括委員剛剛所提不需要調取票的職權調取部分、特定犯罪部分，也要在內控範圍內加以內控。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是同一個內控機制喔？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！沒關係，我知道你們的想法了。","那你們有沒有想過這些民眾，我們也知道以前有很多案子以他字案查一查之後，發現沒有犯罪嫌疑就簽結了嘛！那如果以後有民眾在這些資料被調閱之後接獲通知，才發現權利受侵害，有沒有什麼救濟途徑？如果民眾受到檢察官、警察職權調閱之後發現根本就是烏龍一場，自覺權利受到侵害，或現在有些特定檢察官會把資料給特定媒體，如果查到之後發現構成要件根本就不符合而簽結或作不起訴處分，卻因為資料外洩導致當事人權益受損，你們有沒有想過救濟方式？還是要民眾就去請民事庭處理吧？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，通保法如果涉及救濟的話，在刑訴第四百一十六條有一項準抗告的救濟機制嘛！倒是司法警察這部分，在目前法制上也許還不夠完備，被檢察官調取到的部分就必須循第四百一十六條的準抗告途徑處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣好了，我大概懂你的意思，如果有問題，我會再請教，因為時間的關係。","在我的印象中，如果沒有記錯的話，預算中大概有5億元是針對這次打詐或網路監控方面的資料、流量分析等等，編在調查局的大概就新增四億九千多萬元。這麼高的一筆錢給你們，你們還是要說清楚怎麼用、細節上怎麼用。我們還是要知道啦！因為這不是小數目，所以細項還是要給我們，讓我們清楚。我甚至很在意一點，就是你們調取到的資料是由誰監控、由誰保存，這個機制有沒有做好？其實已經上路幾個月，機制都還沒有出來，又花了國家那麼多錢，這也不太對。所以這部分麻煩你們要能夠給我們比較詳細的資料。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，整個大的計畫是編在內政部警政署，有關網路流量的後端分析是包含在這個大的計畫裡面。因為整個設備還沒有完全建置起來，所以目前都沒有，只能說在法規上，未來都必須有令狀才能夠執行。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這樣我知道就好。","最後跟你們提一下，我有幾件事情要麻煩你們回復啦！大概就是針對我剛剛提到的內稽內控等整個配套措施、調取比例、內部審核准駁的數據，希望提供給我。還有，調取成功之後，起訴跟定罪的案例──如果有的話，還沒有沒關係，但如果已經有案例的話，那麻煩把例子提供給我們，讓我稍微了解一下偵查手段與比例原則的關係。為什麼我會這樣要求？是因為我們看了之前根據反滲透法抓了一堆人，結果後來起訴的比例並沒有很高啊！有很多後來是簽結或不起訴嘛！所以我們也要看一下一項法規推出或一項行政行為出來之後，對人民的侵害在比例原則上有沒有問題。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我要了解一下這麼做調了多少人以及後來的起訴與定罪率到底如何，我希望知道這個。","再麻煩一下，關於我剛剛講到的內控機制，你們也要參考一下德國、日本跟美國的作法，有時候他們引入外部監控機制，這時候人民比較能夠信任。再來就是針對我剛剛提到的網路流量分析系統還有通譯監察設備費的預算細目，希望能夠在1個月內給我就好。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有要求很快，就是1個月內把這些資料給我。"],["陳局長白立：好，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：剛才提到高雄高分檢的那項資料，也要麻煩你們給我，我拿到之後也才能夠跟家屬解釋到底是怎麼回事。我需要主席裁示一下，要在1個月內。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。對於吳宗憲委員所提出的相關問題，請法務部或調查局在1個月之內提出具體、詳細的書面說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["主席：是書面答復啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長、謝謝總長、局長還有老師。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員會跟本會。翁曉玲委員質詢時所要求的書面內容一併列入公報紀錄，並請機關答復。","委員林思銘、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面回復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"158254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37777873656546756a5a163c98980915ed4c8b3bbbcd3c6b3ccd2cad39e601c0f710b917354ebcad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:32:50 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:53.406,"text":"是因為我們現在這個要根據那個金保法第三條我們要公告所以我們在公告之前那上次開協調會是希望我們多多跟其他業者能夠溝通完畢把他們一律溝通清楚今天假設如果法案已經形成的話沒話說啦講白點可是法案還沒形成之前就要召開這個"},{"start":54.727,"end":79.541,"text":"公聽會的話老實講有一種主粹修法的先行我再跟你講一個數據好了那個事情在4月25號的時候中租抵合還明明對外公開講說他們支持融資轉法就私底下做這種事情根本是個主粹修法這基本上是兩面守法表裡不一樣沒有真正想要被納管所以這種心態可以你要想清楚"},{"start":80.521,"end":107.128,"text":"那如果業者這種心態的話就是既有不受政府管轄的情況底下他對他們對自由啊獲利的空間最大要不是我們揭發幾次的話他們會自我收斂嗎會有自律公約嗎所以說呢自律之外還真的需要他你知道真的很誇張到現在為止中蘇抵合還有在推廣啊你只要來我這邊啊要接受我服務貸款的你還要買重安家保健食品"},{"start":108.548,"end":137.45,"text":"阿中華金融保險食品拜託欸我給你借錢我另外花一筆錢欸你看我手頭上這一份吼我手頭上這一份土地他向權力部阿權力人中租抵合阿就跟他一個標案而已就跟他貸了九億六千萬九億六千萬九億六千萬因為這有一個個資的問題我不予洩漏當事人敢傳給我但是我又不想要造成他的困擾"},{"start":138.482,"end":157.414,"text":"所以借個916000塊還要跟他買保健食品然後罵完之後有一些自律公約那自律公約標的在哪裡只有中古車跟先買後付有自律啊然後最近他們對外宣布說呢克訴案件的降了三成多"},{"start":159.073,"end":186.558,"text":"主要是在中古車啊又不是其他我再跟你講還有哪些爭議行為第一個暴力討債結合黑道第二個放高利第三個呢最近有一個台版的地面師勾結這些融資公司來騙3億元這是詐騙所以手段還有第四個去成立所謂代辦公司標的上最受爭議的最近最受爭議的是什麼"},{"start":187.378,"end":203.498,"text":"就是土建榮嘛不是嗎那我問一下主委嘛關於這個自律公約類似這些不當手段的禁止或者呢這個除了先買後付中古車之外有沒有可能把土建榮部分也納入約束之中主委請"},{"start":204.153,"end":219.68,"text":"有關土建融的部分我想委員應該也知道我們在12月13號我們就發布了一個新的函令特別針對他們這個土建融部分假設這個資金是來自於金融機構的話我們希望他能夠救援控管"},{"start":219.96,"end":244.189,"text":"那畢竟現在融資公司他現在是因為我們做代放業務即便我們未來已經保法那金融消費者保護法金融消費者主要是針對我說你是他律啦他律啦我是說你是不是要自律的部分再要求一下那個工會部分應該他是等於說應該是他會有一些自律規範我們會透過管道因為我們來請他針對一些爭議事項好幾樣喔好幾樣喔"},{"start":245.99,"end":271.176,"text":"本席都幫你整理好了喔你應該找他再來談一下找工會再來談一下這些自律者的項目增加方法、手段不當的手段也應該予以排除這才是自律嘛否則的話形成這麼多爭議這是第一個第二個對這些自律公會成員自律而無自律者他們是什麼約束處置你也要了解啊不是嗎對我們對相關的自律"},{"start":272.536,"end":289.193,"text":"處理當然自律他不是法律啦但有些他可以連接到法律還是有些裁罰所以需要你去他律嘛所以你應該再找公會來有沒有可能當然我們基於假設跟我們的業務有關我們還是會跟他來溝通這些都有關"},{"start":290.634,"end":302.02,"text":"爭議還不斷爭議不斷不要每次報一件我們再來處理一件嘛我就把案整理好了所以我請主委再找公會談一談再把自律的部分好好處理一下好不好"},{"start":304.95,"end":310.114,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":327.127,"end":353.889,"text":"剛剛就是說我們現在約束的對象主要我知道你現在抓到放小可是你要去想一想你剛剛講說你答詢其他委員說大概有1000家或2000家經濟部工商系統超過了說好像有11萬家好不管幾家工會只有40家三大就只有30家你現在只有約束這三大工會的話不要形成所謂的公平或不公平你搞不好會養出另外一個新的三大"},{"start":356.186,"end":380.358,"text":"你知道我意思嗎就下面對啊你如果養出一個新的三大我們現在這三個三大把它壓制三大變三中三中又變三小那結果呢養出一個新的三大會不會造成這種狀況其實我們的想法就是說其實我們納管是因為對社會影響層面的考慮因為我們上市的公司租賃公司還有四家啦除了大家常講的這三家還有一家對"},{"start":381.539,"end":393.107,"text":"那另外的話就是我們其實上也不是說其他不納管我們接下來第二階段我們就會希望說金融機構轉投資這些大概14家也能夠納管那接下來才是到"},{"start":395.011,"end":398.513,"text":"總金額金融機構授信總共2484億．販款部分1686億．不動產部分高達559億．這個部分換算起來超過31%．等於是超過72條之2的部分你知道嗎．最近還有怎樣你知道嗎．"},{"start":417.799,"end":429.749,"text":"最近還頻頻去打電話給客戶說以前的客戶都說你要不要車貸現在說你要不要房貸你要不要正貸還一直在擴大這個內容在挑戰政府威信在跟政府作對"},{"start":432.076,"end":458.201,"text":"你越約束他,他越這樣處理那到底融資公司會不會形成一個破口那我們就來算總額嘛我們來算總額總額上以目前上一次央軍局長答覆是26.7%非常接近這個警戒值是28到28.5%那你如果換算下去的話我們目前內政部的資料到10月的話剩餘的預售屋還有11萬筆"},{"start":463.246,"end":469.959,"text":"7,815這種情況底下假設一筆貸款額度是一千萬的話還需要資金是一千一兆1.178兆"},{"start":473.171,"end":497.552,"text":"我換算了一下如果1.178兆的話放在這個總量管制當中金額的算法的話還要是會讓整個這個警罪水位破表會超過28.5%我再跟你講一個數字還會另外一個破表是什麼上次有講說把一些排除條款的這個金額拉進去的話伊朗局長告訴我29%"},{"start":499.813,"end":503.564,"text":"如果說把這個未來的預售屋的這個金額再放下去的話會破30欸"},{"start":506.935,"end":533.377,"text":"會破30欸所以以後這些預售在交屋的時候要貸款可能就會貸不到款不是嗎?會不會變成這樣子?跟委員報告其實我們也有跟內政部有密切的去收集這些資料我們也對明年有做預估那我們有有比較不一樣的數據啦我想我們可以再跟委員報告這內容可是主委我跟你說現在房價很清楚了量縮了對不對"},{"start":534.898,"end":561.068,"text":"對亮說而且現在貸款也在下降也在下降很明顯幾個數字都是這樣子我們每個禮拜監控全國的貸款金那我就問你亮說現在還是有一些AV約的行為還有一些低首付的狀況一些手法還有附加電手法越來越多還辦座談會在造勢你要知道這種情況底下買氣還是沒有增加的情況就最好與主委"},{"start":562.108,"end":588.328,"text":"那你看起來有沒有可能什麼時候跌沒有我想齁我們不對那個房價因為我們是管控銀行的風險不要說跌嘛你是不是要先讓買屋者稍微止步一下嘛沒有我想現在未來很多變數比如說貸款就是一個變數但是我們有每週在監控我們也對明年後年做預估我想這部分我們大概都會嚴密的跟財政部跟央行一起來"},{"start":589.569,"end":608.754,"text":"監控這件事情沒有主委我跟你講這有雙重破口的可能性然後建商還是不斷用其他預收還是用其他的手法一直在增加也就是說這個11換戶還有可能會再增加然後增加的情況底下你還有一個問題你還會形成另一個破口就什麼就周轉金"},{"start":610.094,"end":639.734,"text":"你有沒有把周轉金的金額再清楚地掌握多少金額有 那個剛才帶放裡面其實剛剛比如說對融資公司其實大部分都是周轉金沒有 沒有 那是融資公司我是說一般的建商來說你還是有周轉金的資金有 那個我們都有針對這兩個分類做那個這個機制當中你如果沒有一清清楚地掌握的話它的融資啊就會那個周轉金會轉向了另外一種形式的一種貸款你會形成一種破口再加上呢最近的房地產增加"},{"start":640.474,"end":669.309,"text":"當初他貸到的周轉金可能是5億我現在房子又增加我又再跟你要求一次再增貸我拿以前舊的這個標的以前10年前我現在房地產增加我現在如果說你現在我現在金額不夠我又增貸那這種情況底下那不是沒完沒了了嗎主委我們在這一波裡面我們有跟銀行做一些比如說結構性的調整我想委員都知道調整是什麼"},{"start":670.169,"end":692.722,"text":"結婚姻調整希望把它轉向在比如說那個土建籠部分還有包括相關對建築這邊的貸款我們能夠轉向我們一般民生的貸款我想這個成效已經也發生了因為資產太多了嘛 肩上手頭資產太多了嘛 它以前是低價嘛 現在是高價嘛我只是這次資產重新評估 我又給你貸款一次 那不就真貸了嗎"},{"start":693.963,"end":720.127,"text":"對不對那當然現在就是說那增待的同時又給你多要周轉金那不就是又變成一個新的缺口了嗎主委現在據我們了解銀行是它是個總量在控制就是說不是只有土建融其他周轉金它是總量在控制是啦我就是做一個提醒啦是是謝謝不要變成說我們看到一個缺口之後要堵這一個又形成一個缺口那這個缺口又沒有堵起來又變成另一個新的缺口本期在慎重提醒你啦有機會要再跟公會談一談啦謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":723.969,"end":731.817,"text":"好 謝謝郭國鴻委員喔 謝謝接著我們請林思銘委員林思銘 林思銘 林思銘不在麥玉珍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1041,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時22分）主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。這兩天有一些意外的插曲，就是關於融資專法要不要制定的問題，聽說有人去進行遊說，還說要等到財委會召開兩次公聽會之後，我就請問一下主委，這個問題其他委員有關心過，到底是在法案提出之前還是在法案提出之後要召開公聽會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個根據金保法第三條規定要公告，所以我們在公告之前，上次開協調會是希望我們多多跟其他業者溝通完畢，把他們疑慮溝通清楚……"],["郭委員國文：今天如果法案已經形成的話，沒話說啦，講白一點嘛；可是法案還沒形成之前就要召開公聽會的話，老實講有一種阻卻修法的嫌疑。我再跟你講一個數據好了，在4月25日中租廸和明明對外公開說他們支持融資專法，結果私底下做這種事情根本是阻卻修法，基本上這是兩面手法，表裡不一，沒有真正想要被納管，所以這種心態可議！你要想清楚，如果業者是這種心態的話，就是既有不受政府管轄的情況下對他們來說最自由、獲利的空間最大，要不是我們揭發幾次，他們會自我收斂嗎？還會有自律公約嗎？所以說自律之後還真的需要他律。","你知道真的很誇張，到現在為止中租廸和還在推廣，你要來我這邊要接受我服務貸款的還要買仲安家保健食品，買仲安家保健食品！拜託！我要跟你借錢還要另外花一筆錢。你看我手上這一份土地他項權利簿，權利人中租廸和，一個標案而已就跟它貸了9億6,000萬，9億6,000萬！因為這有個資的問題我不宜洩漏，當事人敢傳給我，但是我不想要造成他的困擾，借個9億6,000萬還要跟它買保健食品！罵完之後有一些自律公約，自律公約標的在哪裡？只有中古車跟先買後付有自律，然後最近他們對外宣布說客訴案件降了三成多，主要是在中古車啊，又不是其他。","我再跟你講還有哪些爭議行為：第一個暴力討債，結合黑道；第二個放高利貸；第三個最近有一個台版的地面師，勾結這些融資公司來騙3億元，這就是詐騙。還有第四個去成立所謂的代辦公司，標的上最近最受爭議的是什麼？就是土建融，不是嗎？我問一下主委，關於這些自律公約類似這些不當手段的禁止或者除了先買後付中古車之外，有沒有可能把土建融部分納入約束之中？主委請說。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關土建融的部分，我想委員應該也知道，我們在12月13日發布了一個新的函令，特別針對土建融部分，假設這個資金是來自於金融機構的話，希望他能夠究源控管……"],["郭委員國文：有、有、有，那個我知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：畢竟現在融資公司是做貸放業務，即便我們未來有金融消費者保護法，金融消費者主要是針對個人……"],["郭委員國文：你是說他律，而我是說你是不是在自律的部分再要求一下？我問你的是這個。"],["彭主任委員金隆：公會部分應該是會有一些自律規範，我們會透過管道請他針對一些爭議事項做一個定義……"],["郭委員國文：好幾樣哦！本席都幫你整理好了，你應該找公會再來談一下，這些自律者的項目增加，不當的手段也應該予以排除，這才是自律，否則的話形成這麼多爭議，這是第一個。第二個，對於現在公會成員無自律者，他們是怎麼約束處置，你也要了解，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們對相關的自律處理，當然自律不是法律，但有些可以連接到法律，還是有些裁罰……"],["郭委員國文：對，所以需要你去他律嘛，你應該再找公會來，有沒有可能？"],["彭主任委員金隆：假設跟我們的業務有關，還是會跟他來做溝通。"],["郭委員國文：這些都有關，爭議還不斷，不要每報一件我們再來處理一件，我幫你整理好了，所以我請主委再找公會談一談，再把自律的部分好好處理一下，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以。"],["郭委員國文：剛剛你講的四個，四個當中加強審查、信用管制、納入總量管制、雙重管制，這本席肯定你。切結的部分不能流入不動產，這個就是他律，那自律也可以增加，他也可以寫，不是嗎？你都指導他了，更何況我們現在約束的對象，我知道你現在是抓大放小，可是你要去想一想，你剛剛答詢其他委員說大概有1,000家或2,000家，經濟部工商系統好像有超過11萬家，不管幾家，公會只有40家、三大就只有30家，你現在只約束這三大公會的話，不要說形成所謂的公平或不公平，你搞不好會養出另外一個新的三大，你知道我的意思嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就下面。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！你如果養出一個新的三大，我們現在對這個三大把它壓制，三大變三中、三中又變三小，然後結果呢？養出一個新的三大！會不會造成這種狀況？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們的想法要納管是因為對社會影響層面的考慮，因為上市的租賃公司大概有4家，除了大家常講的3家，還有1家。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們也不是說其他不納管，接下來第二階段就會希望金融機構轉投資這些大概14家也能夠納管，接下來才是到……"],["郭委員國文：3加1。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，那現在……"],["郭委員國文：你知道總金額，我看到最主要的爭議，不好意思，主委，我再打斷你。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，不好意思。"],["郭委員國文：有關總金額，金融機構授信總共2,484億，放款部分就有1,686億，而不動產部分高達559億，這部分換算起來超過31%，就是等於是超過第七十二條之二的部分，然後最近它還怎樣你知道嗎？最近還頻頻打電話給客戶，以前是問你要不要車貸，現在是問你要不要房貸、你要不要增貸。他一直在擴大內容，在挑戰政府威信，在跟政府作對，你愈約束他、他愈這樣處理，到底融資公司會不會形成一個破口？我們就來算總額，總額部分以上一次銀行局局長答復我的是26.7%，非常接近那個警戒值28%到28.5%，你如果換算下去，目前內政部的資料到10月剩餘的預售屋還有11萬7,815筆，這種情況底下假設一筆貸款額度是1,000萬的話，還需要資金1.178兆，我換算了一下，如果1.178兆放在這個總量管制當中的金額算法是會讓整個警戒水位破表的，會超過28.5%。","我再跟你講一個數字，還會有的另外一個破表是什麼，上次有講把一些排除條款的金額納進去的話，銀行局長告訴我是29%，如果把未來預售屋的金額再放下去的話會破30%、會破30%耶！所以以後這些預售屋在交屋的時候要貸款可能就會貸不到，不是嗎？會不會變這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實我們也有跟內政部密切去蒐集這些資料，我們也有對明年做預估，我們有比較不一樣的數據，我想我們可以再跟委員報告這個內容。"],["郭委員國文：可是主委我跟你說，現在房價很清楚量縮了，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：量縮。"],["彭主任委員金隆：而且現在貸款也在下降。"],["郭委員國文：也在下降，很明顯嘛，幾個數字都是這樣子嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們每個禮拜監控全國的貸款金額，確實在下降。"],["郭委員國文：那我就問你，量縮現在還是有一些AB約的行為、還有一些低首付的狀況、一些手法還有附家電，手法越來越多，還辦座談會在造勢，你要知道啊！這種情況底下，在買氣還是沒有增加的情況底下，我就要就教主委了，你看起來有沒有可能什麼時候跌？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想我們不對房價，因為我們是……"],["郭委員國文：對，你是不對它，但是總體經濟你最清楚嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是管控銀行的風險。"],["郭委員國文：好，不要說跌，那你是不是要讓買屋者先稍微止步一下、再觀察一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想未來有很多變數，比如貸款就是一個變數，但是我們有每週在監控，我們也對明年、後年做預估，我想這部分我們大概都會嚴密的跟財政部、央行一起來監控這件事情。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，主委，我跟你講，這有雙重破口的可能性，然後建商的預售屋還是不斷用其他的手法一直在增加，也就是這個11萬戶還有可能會再增加，然後增加的情況底下還有一個問題，還會形成另一個破口，是什麼？就是周轉金啊，你有沒有把周轉金的金額清楚掌握？有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，貸放裡面其實是……比如對融資公司的其實大部分都是周轉金。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，它是融資公司。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：我是說以一般的建商來說還是有周轉金資金機制。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我們都有針對這兩個分類做了解。"],["郭委員國文：對，這個機制你如果沒有清楚掌握的話，它的融資那個周轉金會轉向另外一種形式貸款，會形成一種破口，再加上最近的房地產增加，當初他貸到的周轉金可能是5億，我現在房子增加、我又再跟你要求一次再增貸，我拿以前舊的這個標的，可能是10年前的，我現在的房地產增加，如果金額不夠我又增貸，這種情況底下不就沒完沒了了嗎？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：在這一波裡面我們有跟銀行做一些結構性的調整，我想委員都知道央行跟我們……"],["郭委員國文：調整是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：結構性調整是希望把它轉向，比如土建融部分，還有包括相關對建築這邊的貸款，我們能夠轉向一般民生的貸款。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個成效已經發生了。"],["郭委員國文：因為建商手頭上的資產太多了嘛，他以前是低價、現在是高價，類似資產重新評估又跟你貸款一次，那不就增貸了嗎？對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然現在就是說……"],["郭委員國文：增貸的同時又跟你多要周轉金，那不就又變成一個新的缺口了嗎？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在據我們的了解銀行是總量在控制，就是不只有土建融，其他周轉金它也是總量在控制。"],["郭委員國文：是啦，我就是做一個提醒。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：不要變成我們看到一個缺口之後，為了要堵這個而又形成另一個缺口。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["郭委員國文：這個缺口又沒有堵起來，又變成另一個新的缺口，本席慎重提醒你，有機會要再跟公會談一談。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。","接著請林思銘委員、林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在場。","麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員，麥玉珍委員不在場。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在場。","好，我們休息10分鐘，讓大家休息一下。","休息（11時35分）","繼續開會（11時46分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接著請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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主委 到現在沒有任何機制可以讓他解除告誡戶 對吧這個警示戶跟告誡戶確實不太一樣是 也就是說幾個月之後他取得了不起訴處分但是他要去取消告誡戶幾乎叫做不可能然後後來上一次我們在委員會他是說因為告誡戶是一個行政處分所以當時就要30天之內提出訴願但是"},{"start":140.934,"end":161.59,"text":"等到不起訴處分已經是半年後的事了他沒有辦法在30天之內提起訴願所以這些告誡戶到現在為止其實非常多人在向民意代表澄清可是我上次做的互待決議就是這件事情應該要清楚的預知或告知所有可能這樣受到影響的告誡戶這些人數有多少你知道嗎"},{"start":162.389,"end":183.64,"text":"因為上次我有有個數據有比如3月應該有應該有幾十萬人是幾十萬的百姓幾十萬的沒有把賬號密碼給別人的百姓他們現在被變成告戒戶在受到這樣子的不管是懷疑也好應該是其中有部分確實是剛剛那個狀況有很多確實是所以我一直說"},{"start":184.58,"end":206.303,"text":"金管會對於這些告借戶我相信我們希望你們研議出一個專門的或者是有救濟的方法就是把告借戶做等級的是如果他有不起作處分的是一種其他的狀況是一種因為他的確沒有把自己的賬號密碼給人家他也沒有把這個錢提出去給所謂的詐騙集團"},{"start":207.577,"end":227.584,"text":"他就是賣了一個東西他真的也付出了那個東西然後他的賬號被拿去做成詐騙的賬號雖然進到他的賬戶內他沒有領出來他也沒有交給別人但是他還是變成詐騙集團的共犯而且最後他可能變成不起訴處分書了但是這個部分沒有辦法取消他告戒戶的"},{"start":230.465,"end":243.893,"text":"問題這個問題很多而且幾十萬人好嗎主委不能再拖啦我們越聽越多了多到已經不知道該怎麼處理了這個我再請我們同仁來來來進一步了解跟"},{"start":245.133,"end":260.888,"text":"所以你請趕快找法務部找警政署是不是在警示賬戶的方式在告誡戶上面有沒有另外一個所謂的救濟的機制否則這些人到今天為止他真的就是一個受害的第三人"},{"start":261.548,"end":261.909,"text":"委員提供幾個個案"},{"start":279.364,"end":300.944,"text":"法院都幫你們做了調查了這些可以優先處理吧對對因為這個這個還牽涉到法務部因為執法是他們訂的我們會跟他聯繫來怎麼做上一次委員會下附帶決議就是這個道理因為的確這些人沒有救急管道至少他才被告誡以後拿到不起訴處分書他還是沒有辦法取消他的告誡的身份這個有點離譜啊"},{"start":303.331,"end":330.045,"text":"我們會來跟法務部來協調看看怎麼處理另外一個問題就是上一次有一個國際的通緝犯西班牙籍的男子奧納德在我國2019年在伊拉利詐欺了10億然後後來發現他在台灣過得很舒服非常的開心最嚴重的是他竟然在台灣登記了公司還開了銀行的賬戶後來我們請銀行繼續查來局長你們查的結果"},{"start":333.601,"end":352.905,"text":"報告委員我們總共查到有8家的銀行然後他分別有擔任負責人或有他自己本人有開戶所以因為我們查到了之後我們已經請銀行說這個人竟然已經有因為剛開始銀行是2019年他就上了新聞國際的資料庫都有"},{"start":355.367,"end":376.264,"text":"後來銀行也有在資料庫裡面查到有負面的新聞所以有些銀行已經做控管了那不過後來因為在開戶的時候都沒有查是嗎這可能牽涉到也是也許是有資訊的我現在要問的是還有沒有下一個現在所有在台灣負責人是外國人的人這些KYC都做好了嗎"},{"start":377.986,"end":404.978,"text":"後來我們因為這一次的事件我們也有發函給各個銀行就說他們從KYC上有回報現在他們清查的結果還有做相關的機制或處理了嗎?就是資料庫都設備過一次了嗎?對所以我們也會後續我們也會再請銀行說以後也要做回溯性的清查啦從這件事件以後局長我要的是進度你回溯性的清查已經做了多少?"},{"start":405.638,"end":420.885,"text":"做了多少家、多了多少人而不是只是發函你發了函,他們有回函嗎?有相關的統計嗎?或你發現了問題,要不要做一次的清查可以給他們時間,但是不能只是發函"},{"start":423.215,"end":440.261,"text":"這個委員我們後續再從這個方面我給你一個月的時間請他們回報他們清查的結果如果我們回溯你可以先回溯幾年再回溯幾年慢慢查但是總是要進入而且資料庫就在那裡有相關的人有相關的資料上去查就查得到"},{"start":441.101,"end":466.468,"text":"KYC不就是應該做這件事嗎我們現在的百姓不是常常收到銀行你要來更新你的資料你不更新我就要怎樣怎樣那對這些外國尤其是可能有這種國際通緝犯的這些人他們竟然在台灣可以過得這麼爽而且發現以後才發現他開了八個銀行帳戶這麼多年我們的洗錢防治可能都淪於空談"},{"start":468.188,"end":470.01,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":485.748,"end":509.42,"text":"金融機構接下去為了國際競爭大概都會開始陸陸續續的合併現在的星光要被併但是後來賀蘭才發現這兩個銀行都沒有工會他們現在成立了現在在成立這是很奇怪的事也就是說我們看了全金聯他們的企業工會目前只有37家所以不是每個銀行都有工會是嗎"},{"start":510.648,"end":531.545,"text":"現在應該不是所有金融機構都有是,但是金融機構被併的時候就突然間趕快匆匆忙忙的成立工會之前包括富邦金、併購日盛金、花旗讓壽新展這些都是發生過很多的風風雨雨那之前更早的就是所謂的元大併大眾"},{"start":533.426,"end":562.666,"text":"這些併購已經成為常態了我們現在看到勞動部可能希望能夠訂出金融機構合併的勞工勞動權益保障的行政指引也就是說這麼多年有這麼多的機構已經併購而且問題都差不多甚至對於安置尤其是如果沒有工會的銀行對他們的勞工保障更沒有保障所以要靠這些所謂的權金聯會其他的工會來幫他的忙所以主委我只想問金融合併是金管會支持的"},{"start":563.166,"end":569.275,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":580.01,"end":594.285,"text":"如果可以的話我們應該鼓勵各金融機構成立工會而不是到要合併的時候才赫然發現他沒工會趕快來成立然後工會沒有運作過其實很難達到一定的成果啊你同意嗎"},{"start":596.488,"end":614.825,"text":"這個應該是我們會跟勞動部 資方都不喜歡成立工會啦但是銀行局應該去鼓勵我們相關的單位盡量的成立工會尤其是勞動部跟銀行局應該是讓銀行的管理對員工的保障納入正軌有工會的"},{"start":616.287,"end":630.597,"text":"銀行更沒有工會的銀行他對於勞工的保障當然會有影響所以我們不能期待有很棒的老闆可能有慣老闆誰知道所以鼓勵銀行成立工會也應該是金管會推動的業務吧"},{"start":631.38,"end":660.276,"text":"我想這應該是勞動部我們站在金融監督的角度你們不反對嘛所以也希望銀行不要去阻止他們銀行的內部員工我們不會阻止這是他們的權利而且要保障他們成立工會的權益那我們是希望有一個公平的這樣一個交易所以我們希望你們現在就協助相關的銀行員工他們將來除了審查之外我希望工會的成立還有這個所謂合併的時候權益保障的行政執行監會要大力介入好嗎"},{"start":661.374,"end":663.936,"text":"接著我們請謝榮介委員謝榮介謝榮介謝榮介不在接著我們請郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":977,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時11分）謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，剛剛顏寬恒委員問的都是大家的心聲，因為詐騙案還是非常多，詐騙的後面就叫做洗錢，今年5月我們在新修洗錢防制法的時候，當時我還記得我下了一個附帶決議，我相信很多的委員也都接到很多的陳情，因為有一個叫做告誡戶，也就是提供人頭帳戶，要由地方警察機關來裁處所謂的告誡處分，而且限制他在5年內不得使用金融服務部分功能……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，數位服務。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以告誡戶不是不能用他的帳戶，而是很難用，非常難用。上一次我為什麼會在委員會下決議？就是因為警示帳戶警察機關可以自行解除，但是告誡戶到現在為止還是需要經過訴願程序，這個案子送到了地檢署，有人頭帳戶的時候，他們就列出告誡處分，我們當然支持先做告誡的方式，先讓他被警示，但是解除幾乎是困難重重，簡單來說，就像剛剛顏寬恒委員說的，很多人在網路上面賣東西，然後東西也給了買家，賣家的東西已經交出去了，而買家找人匯了那筆錢進到他的帳戶，後來才發現是這個買家去騙了別人來匯進這個帳戶，也就是說，這個帳戶是網路賣家的，他並沒有把自己的帳號密碼交給第三人，可是他就變成了告誡戶，那這個人他在6個月之後可能得到了不起訴處分，但是，主委，到現在沒有任何機制可以讓他解除告誡戶，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：警示戶跟告誡戶確實不太一樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。也就是說，幾個月之後他取得了不起訴處分，但是他要去取消告誡戶，幾乎不可能，後來在上一次委員會，相關單位說，因為告誡戶是一個行政處分，所以當時就要30天之內提出訴願，但是等到收到不起訴處分，已經是半年後的事了，他沒有辦法在30天之內提起訴願，所以到現在為止，這些告誡戶有非常多人向民意代表陳情，我們上次做了附帶決議，就是這件事情應該要清楚地諭知或告知所有可能受到影響的告誡戶，這個人數有多少，你知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：上次有個數據，比如說，3月應該有幾十萬。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，幾十萬的百姓，幾十萬個沒有把帳號密碼給別人的百姓，他們現在變成告誡戶，受到這樣子的懷疑。"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是其中有部分確實是剛剛那個狀況，有很多確實是……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我一直說，金管會對於這些告誡戶，我希望你們研議出一個專門的方法，或者是救濟的方法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是把告誡戶做等級的區分。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。有不起訴處分的是一種，其他的狀況是一種，因為他的確沒有把自己的帳號密碼給人家，他也沒有把這個錢提出去給詐騙集團，他就是賣了一個東西，他真的也付出了那個東西，然後他的帳號被拿去做成詐騙的帳號，雖然錢進到他的帳戶內，他沒有領出來，他也沒有交給別人，但是他還是變成詐騙集團的共犯，而且最後他可能獲得不起訴處分了，但是這個部分沒有辦法取消他的告誡戶，這個問題很多，而且有幾十萬人。主委，不能再拖了，我們越聽越多，多到已經不知道該怎麼處理了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我再請我們同仁來進一步瞭解，看看怎麼處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：你趕快找法務部，找警政署，看看是不是用警示帳戶的方式，對告誡戶有另外一個救濟的機制，否則到今天為止，這些人真的就是受害的第三人。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，也麻煩委員提供幾個個案給我們。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們這邊個案很多，我相信立法委員手裡的個案應該不少，這個部分金管會應該也收到很多資料。首先，我希望你們訂出一個相關的機制，如果他已經取得起訴處分了，裡面的認定方式，法院都幫你們做了調查，這些可以優先處理吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。這個還牽涉到法務部，因為子法是他們訂的，我們會跟法務部聯繫，討論要怎麼處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。上一次委員會下附帶決議就是這個道理，因為這些人的確沒有救濟管道，他被告誡以後拿到不起訴處分書，還是沒有辦法取消他的告誡戶身分，這個有點離譜啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會跟法務部協調看看怎麼處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：另外一個問題就是，上一次有一個國際通緝犯，就是西班牙籍的男子奧納德，2019年在義大利詐欺了10億元後逃逸，後來被發現他在臺灣過得很舒服，非常開心，最嚴重的是，他竟然在臺灣登記了公司，還開了銀行的帳戶，後來我們請銀行局去查，來，局長，你們查的結果如何？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，我們總共查到有8家銀行和他有往來，然後分別有他擔任負責人，或是他自己本人也有開戶，我們查到了之後，已經跟銀行說，這個人既然已經有案在身，因為剛開始銀行是……"],["黃委員珊珊：2019年他就上了新聞，國際的資料庫都有。"],["莊局長琇媛：對。因為後來銀行也有在資料庫裡面查到負面的新聞，所以有些銀行已經做控管了，不過後來因為最後他已經被……"],["黃委員珊珊：在開戶的時候都沒有查，是嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：這個可能牽涉到也許是有資訊的落差。"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在要問的是：還有沒有下一個？現在所有在臺灣的公司負責人是外國人的，這些KYC都做好了嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：因為這一次的事件，我們也有發函給各個銀行，就是說他們從KYC上……"],["黃委員珊珊：他們有回報現在他們清查的結果，還有做相關的機制或處理了嗎？資料庫都survey過一次了嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：對，所以後續我們也會再請銀行以後要做回溯性的清查，從這件事件來看……"],["黃委員珊珊：不是以後，局長，我要的是進度，你回溯性的清查已經做了多少？做了多少家？做了多少人？而不是只是發函。你發了函，他們有回函嗎？有相關的統計嗎？如果你發現了問題，要不要做一些一次的清查？可以給他們時間，但是不能只是發函。"],["莊局長琇媛：好，委員，我們後續再從這方面……"],["黃委員珊珊：我給你一個月的時間請他們回報他們清查的結果。"],["莊局長琇媛：好，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果回溯，你可以先回溯幾年，再回溯幾年，慢慢查，但是總是要有進度，而且資料庫就在那裡，有相關的人，有相關的資料，上去查就查得到，KYC不就是應該做這件事嗎？我們現在的百姓不是常常收到銀行通知要來更新資料，不更新的話，銀行就要怎樣怎樣，那對這些外國人，尤其是可能有國際通緝犯身分的這些人，他們竟然在臺灣可以過得這麼爽，而且被發現以後才發現他開了8個銀行帳戶，這麼多年，我們的洗錢防制可能都淪為空談，我們要求的KYC都是空的，這很可怕。","局長，我給你一個月的時間，請你回覆你們去清查KYC的資料的情形。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，委員講的，我們會請他們儘快來處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。主委，我最後一個問題，就是現在金融機構為了國際競爭，大概都會開始陸陸續續合併，現在的新光要被併，但是後來才赫然發現這兩個銀行都沒有工會。"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們現在成立了。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在在成立，這是很奇怪的事。也就是說，我們看了全金聯他們的企業工會，目前只有37家，所以不是每個銀行都有工會，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在應該不是所有金融機構都有。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。但是金融機構被併的時候，就突然間趕快匆匆忙忙地成立工會，之前包括富邦金併購日盛金，花旗讓售星展，這些都發生過很多的風風雨雨，之前更早的就是元大併大眾，這些併購已經成為常態了，我們現在看到勞動部可能希望能夠訂出「金融機構合併勞工勞動權益保障行政指引」，也就是這麼多年有這麼多機構已經併過，而且問題都差不多，甚至對於安置，尤其是沒有工會的銀行對他們的勞工更沒有保障，要靠這些全金聯或其他的工會來幫他的忙，所以主委，我只想問：金融合併是金管會支持的政策吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我講過很多次，良質的合併有……"],["黃委員珊珊：都是可以的，所以它一定會有員工權益保障的問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，那也是我們在審查時很重要的一項。"],["黃委員珊珊：是審查很重要的一個項目，但是內容、員工、工會，如果可以的話，我們應該鼓勵各金融機構成立工會，而不是到要合併的時候才赫然發現它沒工會要趕快來成立，工會沒有運作過其實很難達到一定的成果，你同意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們會跟勞動部……"],["黃委員珊珊：資方都不喜歡成立工會啦！但是銀行局應該去鼓勵相關單位儘量成立工會，尤其是勞動部跟銀行局應該是讓銀行的管理對員工的保障納入正軌，有工會的銀行跟沒有工會的銀行對於勞工的保障當然會有影響，雖然我們不能期待有很棒的老闆，可能也有慣老闆，誰知道？所以鼓勵銀行成立工會也應該是金管會推動的業務吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這應該是勞動部，我們站在金融監理的角度會來……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們不反對嘛！所以也希望銀行不要去阻止銀行的內部員工……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們不會阻止，這是他們的權利。"],["黃委員珊珊：而且要保障他們成立工會的權益。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是希望有一個公平的交易。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以希望你們現在就協助相關的銀行員工，將來除了審查之外，我希望工會的成立還有合併的時候權益保障的行政指引，金管會要大力介入好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們大概會按照我們的立場來執行。"],["黃委員珊珊：怎麼樣儘量保障員工的權益，因為他們才是金融的資產。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，保障所有利害關係人都是我們的職責。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以我希望勞動部的這個行政指引，金管會能夠熱烈的參與，而且聽取工會的意見。"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們會邀我們參與。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接著請謝龍介委員，謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員，謝龍介委員不在場。","接下來請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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bicyclist 審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":543.988,"end":572.365,"text":"但是這個源頭的管理這部分我們也希望各部會能夠去重視去注意像這一種的下架又是不是可以給他下架限制瀏覽的或者是怎樣的一個讓這些沒辦法利用這些網路來做一個販賣的一個途徑那這部分我們都協調各部會做全管的部分來做一個處理部長平常嗜好是不是踢足球我沒有在遠方因為我每天都忙著看這些巡打資料"},{"start":573.991,"end":592.623,"text":"部長你剛剛踢皮球踢得蠻大力的啦我很抱歉我必須講你這樣剛剛的回答我都已經可以預想到你講了衛福部你講了速發部你講了關稅署也就是財政部但是本席就是提出來因為過去我們就是有相關的檢查嘛"},{"start":593.643,"end":617.455,"text":"但是不要說個人的行為我們都會用締結相關檢查結果沒有想到是公司化的經營集團化的經營反而法務部沒有作為我們沒有作為啊這一點就是我們是企圖的所以我們從企圖的個案我們發現很多的管理上源頭的一個一個漏洞所以我們會回饋給各個權管機關來做一個防篤嘛所以已經那麼久的時間了其實很實在話講"},{"start":623.018,"end":649.01,"text":"你審查明年的預算本市也剛看了一下預算的部分編列了很多打擊詐騙打擊煙毒等等相關這個是局面的嘛這一些都是但是我們現在看到的有沒有違反有沒有違反藥師法販賣尼古丁有沒有違反藥師法有啊那個這不有違反當然我們要加強查緝嘛但是屬於那個那個那個什麼那個那個電子煙的載具的管理的問題"},{"start":650.123,"end":653.685,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":678.219,"end":681.246,"text":"檢查數的同仁全都在這邊我們檢察長都在這邊我真的拜託我們所有的檢察長啊"},{"start":688.868,"end":714.726,"text":"台灣2350萬人我們自己這一代跟我們下一代真的有拜託各位檢察長能夠指揮下面檢察官主動積極的辦理真的不用什麼技巧Google打開搜尋電子煙三個字第一頁就會出現那種販賣的官方網站裡面有賣尼古丁的有賣各種口味的有賣那些載具的那些載具剛剛部長也講了就是它是喪屍煙彈的載具"},{"start":717.27,"end":743.165,"text":"如果說我們的這一代跟下一代都那麼輕易的可以在網路上搜尋的到購買的到宅配今天下貨三天後到便利商店我們直接可以去領了結果這樣子我們還可以持續放任然後部長講說有有匯報那真的很抱歉啊我拜託所有的檢察長要升官要上位可以不用加入什麼軍只要你拿出魄力來查緝我相信就會有"},{"start":744.205,"end":747.326,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1327,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時19分）主席謝謝，麻煩請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，我看到媒體有報導，我想請教一下，可能你會比較了解，鄭家軍要在哪裡報名？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有鄭家軍。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有鄭家軍？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有！沒有！"],["洪委員孟楷：看來部長也知道鄭家軍，我都還沒有說他是一個人名還是一個職稱、還是一個單位，部長就已經講沒有鄭家軍了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，因為委員說：有沒有鄭家軍？我說：沒有鄭家軍……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有鄭家軍，也不知道從哪裡報名，但媒體上怎麼會這麼寫？你有看到媒體報導吧！檢察長14人初審名單已經出爐，其中「鄭家軍」入圍。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不曉得媒體……"],["洪委員孟楷：從何判斷、從何認定……"],["鄭部長銘謙：如何認定什麼是鄭家軍……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以也沒有辦法報名？不然我想也應該要提示一下，讓大家知道若有鄭家軍的話，就趕快報名啊！有報有機會啊！人人有希望，個個沒把握，但至少有報有機會嘛！","部長，我再請教一下，本席之所以提出來，是因為我看到後也很訝異，如果連媒體都那麼不公正、不客觀了，媒體都覺得法務部現在在遴選所謂檢察長的時候都有分你我、分內外、分親疏遠近，這當然不允許嘛！我想部長認同吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為檢察長的遴選是經過很嚴密的機制，這是要有人審委員、檢審委員來做一個提名。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是應該要專業、要判斷、要客觀、要公正、要獨立？這才符合我們對檢察長的期待，是吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這都是檢察長應該有的特質。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我請教部長，因為這一次被形容……媒體報導講說法務部舉行歷史上的首次未來檢察長面試，參選人要針對如何領導統御以及對檢察界未來的期許兩大主題發表講演，每人7分鐘。部長，這算是您的創舉？過去有沒有這樣的例子？就是檢察長的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是由檢審委員提出來的，不是我指示要這樣做的。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是你指示的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是檢審委員提出來，希望在一個公開透明的機制下再來做一個暢談檢察長的理念以及他的抱負，這個不是我提的，但我是樂見其成，因為這是檢審委員提出來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：檢察長的部分，剛剛有講到這是檢審委員會提出的，而且希望公開透明，國人也在想，如果是這樣的話，關於每人講演7分鐘，請問能不能上網直播給大家看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我要尊重檢審委員的意願，這不是我……"],["洪委員孟楷：要公開透明啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是檢審委員的理念，不是我指示要這樣做的。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有給你做最後決定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有！這個部分我就尊重，因為這是他們自己辦的。"],["洪委員孟楷：檢審委員辦理之後，沒有簽文上來要經批示核可？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不需要。"],["洪委員孟楷：如何領導統御以及對檢察界未來的期許，其實我覺得公開透明很重要，我也認同，如果依剛剛部長講的，既然要公開透明，那是不是能夠更公開透明？就不只是檢審委員這邊來了解，我想國人也很關注，如果這些人是我們未來的檢察長的話，就應該要釋疑，不要讓外界認為已經有內定名單了，也不要讓外界認為哪一家的軍就比較強勢、哪一家軍就比較弱勢，是不是能夠讓國人也清楚、明白、了解一下這些檢察長對於如何領導統御以及對未來的抱負、期許是如何──所以能不能直播上網？我想技術層面是沒有問題的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是檢審委員他們自己辦的，跟這些報名的……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子會不會讓人家覺得這會淪為思想審查的狀況？比方說你要講到特定關鍵字，還是你要講到你的領導統御，會變成……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是由檢審委員他們自己去形成一個共識，法律上沒有規定一定要這麼做，我就尊重檢審委員跟他們的決議，而且這個也是自由參加，也沒有強制要參加，我想暢談理念後也就不要再私底下去找、去拜訪，也造成一些不必要的困擾，這是檢審委員他們的共識，說不定明年另外一批的檢審委員，他們可能會認為還有另外一個方式，畢竟這也不是一個法定的模式。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席會這樣提出來，我的初衷跟立意有兩個部分，第一，當外界、媒體都有這樣子報導的時候，其實我覺得更應該自清，開大門、走大路，讓大家知道沒有這樣的狀況，否則只會更加深這方面的疑慮，如果到最後雀屏中選的真的是所謂的鄭家軍，但明明人家就是有專業的，反而這樣一來你會更無法自圓其說，這是第一個部分……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：先聽完本席的問題，不要急著回答，這樣顯得心虛，真的！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我真的沒有心虛。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二個部分，如果我們對於所謂的公開透明，大家也都有所期許的話，我覺得開大門走大路，法務部也可以有一個更廣大的方向，而且這個是可受公評的部分。","另外一個部分，本席有看到我們針對新興菸品查緝的狀況，其實大家有講到菸毒不分家，然後也有講到現在法務部要把喪屍煙彈擬列為二級毒品，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：已經列入了。"],["洪委員孟楷：但更重要的是新興菸品中煙彈載具的狀況，其實非常的氾濫，我已經質詢了衛福部、數發部、教育部，到現在要質詢我們的法務部，我也直指出，部長，您知道嗎？我們上網google，只要搜尋「電子煙」三個字，首頁就可以跳出它的官方網站，我之前有看到，光是販售尼古丁相關的用品，其實就違反了我們的藥事法，可以處以刑責跟5,000萬以下的罰鍰；我們也看到，有人只是從國外買了紙菸，然後要上網拍賣，這也會違反相關菸害防制法，而且我們檢調也是會主動的稽查，何以個人的行為我們都會有主動稽查的狀況，但到目前為止，當去Google、去我們最多人使用的搜尋引擎上，只要打上「電子煙」三個字，還不用任何的技巧、不用任何的暗示、不用任何的暗號，都可以直接搜尋到官方網站，它自己架設的官方網站，然後裡面洋洋灑灑，你想要買什麼口味就有什麼口味、你想要買什麼型號就有什麼型號、你想要買拋棄式的就有拋棄式的、你想買長效型的就有長效型的。部長，那麼嚴重的狀況，我們能不能有一個比較積極的作為來直接打擊？不然，你把喪屍煙彈列為二級，這是本席上一個會期就已經提出的質詢，當時雖然你沒有鬆口，可是到最後你有列為二級，本席予以肯定，可是另外一個就是載具的部分，這一些是不是也要主動積極來查辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，載具的問題，就是電子煙這部分淪為喪屍煙彈的載具，這部分的確是非常嚴重，對此，我們在反毒會報也有提出來，而且臺高檢署也統合了緝毒的單位，因為那個載具、電子煙主要的權管機關是衛福部國健署，我想這部分是一個源頭的管理，我們會促請國健署對於這個載具、電子煙的部分要去做一個不同的管理方式。","另外，我們也請關務署進行邊境的攔截，剛才委員有提到網路上有一些電子煙或者新興毒品的網站，這部分我們有協調數發部，因為這是數發部管理的，所以就是源頭管理，針對這種毒品，我們就是加強查緝、掃蕩、壓制，但是源頭管理的部分，我們也希望各部會能夠去重視、去注意，像是予以下架、限制瀏覽或者是其他的，讓其沒辦法利用這些網路來做為一個販賣的途徑，這部分我們都會協調各部會就權管的部分來做一個處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長平常嗜好是不是踢足球？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在運動，因為每天都忙著看這些詢答資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你剛剛踢皮球踢得滿大力的啦！很抱歉，我必須講，你剛剛的回答，我都已經可以預想到，你講了衛福部，你講了數發部，你講了關務署，也就是財政部，但是本席就是提出來，因為過去我們就是有相關的檢查嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，但是我們是法治國，要依法行政。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要說個人的行為我們地檢都會有相關的檢查，結果沒有想到是公司化的經營、集團化的經營，這時反而法務部卻是沒有作為。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有作為，我們是緝毒的，所以我們從緝毒個案中發現源頭管理上有很多的漏洞，所以我們會回饋給各個權管機關來做一個防杜，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，已經發生那麼久的時間了，說實在的，現在要審查明年的預算，本席剛剛也看了一下預算的部分，編列了很多關於打擊詐騙、打擊菸毒等等相關的經費。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是緝毒面的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我們現在看到的是，請問販賣尼古丁有沒有違反藥事法？有啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分有違反的話，當然我們會加強查緝，但是屬於電子煙載具的管理問題，這部分的源頭管理，我們有請權管機關，就是國健署來做一個防杜，但是委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以他現在在網站上面什麼都賣，這才是本席提出來的，我嚴重懷疑部長根本沒有看過那些網站，本席嚴重懷疑你根本不知道現在氾濫的程度有多嚴重。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我從相關數據就可以看得出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席才會利用這個機會，現在全國相關的檢察署同仁都在這邊、檢察長都在這邊……"],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謝謝委員剛剛委員提到沒有錯金融業它面對整個全社會的數位轉型一定要提升它自己的科技能力以及數位應用能力怎麼樣把數位科技發展出來應用在各個的所謂的營業活動層面上那我們剛才提到就是說我們明年就是要設立這個金融市場發展與創新處主要是"},{"start":153.186,"end":154.668,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":169.286,"end":192.252,"text":"永續金融科那第四個就是市場發展科我想從這個名稱就可以看出來我們未來對這個市場有什麼樣的期待那跟委員做這簡單的說明那你在114年度的預算案中這個一般行政就是說要新設立的這個我們這個創新處一般行政還有金融監理的這個計畫向下共編列了2100多萬的一個預算"},{"start":196.693,"end":215.689,"text":"那我對於金融會要設立這個創新處的必要性還有他肩負的這個責任我表示理解那也認同說要推動數位轉型還有永續發展這個重要性但是新創的一個機構需要投入很多的經費啦但是希望說應該要注重說這個經費運用的效率跟他的效益"},{"start":217.01,"end":243.908,"text":"請教主委這兩千多萬是要花在哪裡第一個主要是一個很大一部分就是人事費我想這個就是人事聘人就是錢第二個就是他有新的處需要新的辦公處所我們花了一千多萬就是要裝潢那個二十幾位同仁的這些辦公室跟辦公設備採購這些辦公設備但是我跟主委強調因為還是當省則省我們現在看到很多預算都非常不合理那我當然知道我們主委"},{"start":245.525,"end":268.342,"text":"應該是會嚴格把關嚴格審核每一筆經費的必要性跟合理性我們要拒絕不必要的開銷那也期望說金管會在推動創新處的同時有效的來控制經費的支出做得多用得少確保每份資金都可以發揮到它應有的價值主委我再請教主委就是虛擬貨幣市場的問題"},{"start":271.204,"end":281.311,"text":"那虛擬貨幣市場的監理是民眾高度關注的因為隨著市場規模越來越大然後技術發展的日新月異那對於這個金融市場的穩定還有民眾財產安全"},{"start":285.895,"end":303.485,"text":"這大家最關心了這財產安全的部分那所以我虛擬貨幣涉及的這個範疇非常的廣泛不管是資金流動、交易監控還是境外的資金運作都對現行的監理機制這個非常大的挑戰"},{"start":305.404,"end":308.287,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":325.669,"end":340.203,"text":"去年12月就已經展開這個專案調查那發現我們國內的企業這個不管是內部控管、法規遵循方面還有客戶審查這些交易監控不足的問題你們對於有4家"},{"start":341.104,"end":370.063,"text":"有4家業者提出的這個罰款累計超過550萬是 經檢對 超過550萬這樣子做得對啦就是要這樣做但是我相信不只這樣啦對 今年我們還在持續檢查對對對 不只這樣那我們要把這些害群之馬還是說這些存著僥倖心態的這些業者要嚴格的控管不可以 如果業者屢勸不聽你們提出 祭出罰款之後那一樣是屢勸不聽那這樣子一再 一再的"},{"start":371.431,"end":382.608,"text":"一再的這個犯錯那對於他的內部控管還有法規遵循的部分儘管會除了罰款之外你能夠採取什麼樣更進一步的手段"},{"start":383.337,"end":409.114,"text":"我想這個我們如果馬上有專法的話我們該有的機構管理的東西我們全部都會用那現在是以洗錢防治為主嘛那主要是未來這個專法出來以後呢他就是可以想像就是一個我們對這個機構的管理那機構包括人員發照、撤照這些都是還有一些處分都會都會完備所以主委專法速度一定要快啊所以我們現在已經在進行中"},{"start":410.816,"end":427.235,"text":"我們現在的草案我們在內部在密集的討論還在討論那我們1月會對外公聽然後6月底前會送進行政院我想未來期待在開法規範還有這個教育投資人"},{"start":428.176,"end":441.227,"text":"這部分我相信一定要更全面的作為讓大家更清楚了解打造一個透明公平還有穩定的一個虛擬市場的一個環境好不好是當然好謝謝主委那我接著請營養局的莊局長委員好局長請教局長我先前這個質詢的時候就有提到因為這個防止遊戲點數詐騙的問題"},{"start":456.383,"end":485.469,"text":"那你們提出的方案是說回歸由發卡行來強化本身這個信用卡的一個風險控管那主委你先請回謝謝這個部分就是說你們就是說強調說就是把這個案子回歸由發卡行來控管避免說他們內部的問題外部化這是你們的說法那這個部分但是你們預計說今年年底就是即將到的年底就可以上路是這樣子嗎"},{"start":486.249,"end":503.198,"text":"報告委員除了這個方航的控管之外因為當時遊戲業者他們也有參與這樣子的討論他們是說他們主動說願意說跟銀行之間有一個聯防的機制所以這個部分的話會繼續再討論下去還在討論對"},{"start":505.839,"end":529.003,"text":"所以現在是跟各大銀行溝通討論嘛還沒有訂一個期程嘛因為那個方卡機構自己的控管本來就已經有了啦他們自己內部的機制要控管其實比較容易那至於討論的沒有落實啊因為我現在不斷的接到陳情就是都一直有這些詐騙的這種行為不斷的在發生所以我要告訴你就是說"},{"start":530.66,"end":554.157,"text":"我接到民眾的陳情他在臉書上他在臉書上面去要去買那個火影忍者火影忍者名人的一番賞模型那個在4000多塊4700塊那對方給他一個條碼要他去超商繳款那他自己也很疑惑啊他不確定啊但是他對方一直催他說你不去繳他就賣給別人啊那他就"},{"start":555.526,"end":560.37,"text":"不得不只好去繳啦結果繳了之後才發現說那4700塊是用來幫對方買那個娛樂城的點數娛樂城你知道嗎娛樂城"},{"start":568.074,"end":586.661,"text":"就是網路下注那一種有很多種娛樂城不管是賭博的還是遊戲的都是那一種當然他們付了之後就找不到人了就會放鳥了對方也不回他了所以事先去就被騙走了那他有去警局報案報案之後也發現說對方是慣犯"},{"start":588.522,"end":602.615,"text":"用同樣的手法騙了很多人一樣的手法可以持續的這樣子詐騙不管那個是小錢還是大錢有這個4千7就有4萬7就有47萬就有400萬我們每天臺灣目前每天受到詐騙的金額"},{"start":604.312,"end":628.246,"text":"好幾億啦,其實這個公布的數字是一億兩億那一年是三四百億,其實不止啦那只是冰山一角啦所以說這個部分我是想說像你們114年度的預算案銀行監理編入了731萬7千元說目的要健全這個銀行業務的管理那我認為說這個進步的空間太大了"},{"start":628.846,"end":647.054,"text":"局長你有什麼看法因為時間有限你光112年的詐騙案件發生數是37000多件112年比111年比他的前一年多出了8300件征服是28.17%這個是有揭露的跟你講真的是沒揭露的很多"},{"start":649.975,"end":673.772,"text":"有可能是他的數倍啦所以這部分我相信是沒有這些措施我們知道金管會祭出了很多防詐打詐的措施但是我們真的是沒有得到滿意的這樣子的效果所以我們要期許金管會、銀行局加強這個監管的力道好不好好委員會我們會盡量對一定要落實啦愛走啦好謝謝好謝謝允寬藤委員接著我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":684.287,"end":684.531,"text":"每個月。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":927,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時59分）主席、各位列席委員，大家好。主席，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。主委，2025年的臺股行事曆已經出爐了，全年臺股交易日有246天，農曆年休市11天，是史上第二長，僅次於2023年的12天，請問主委，有沒有掌握休市這麼多天之後股市的波動？再請教主委，對於明年一整年的股市有什麼期許？可不可以簡單說明？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這是每年我們都會遇到的例行，只是長短的差別，因為全世界的股市互相連動，但是不是所有的股市像我們放春節，有很多問題，我們會例行性……"],["顏委員寬恒：我還是提醒主委，因為新的一年金管會一定要掌握好股市的脈動。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝提醒。"],["顏委員寬恒：美國總統也要上任了，國際情勢、地緣政治還有國際股市的升降息、通膨等等這些因素都要掌控好，我們希望臺股能夠繼續穩健地成長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：金融業正面臨數位轉型和永續轉型的雙重挑戰，在這個關鍵的時刻，金管會扮演著引領的角色，透過政策的規劃和創新支持，協助金融業順利轉型，並且提升整體的競爭力。主委，你特別強調，在數位轉型的浪潮當中，金融業應該加強數位能力及科技應用能力，你有強調過，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：然後建構具有國際競爭力的數位金融體系。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：為了實現數位轉型及永續轉型的的長遠目標，金管會預計在明年成立金融市場發展及創新處，那可不可以請主委在這邊說明創新處的業務是什麼？你希望它達到什麼樣的目標？如何幫助我國在金融方面能夠更進一步？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員。剛剛委員提到的沒有錯，金融業面對整個社會的數位轉型，一定要提升自己的科技能力及數位應用能力，怎麼樣把數位科技發展出來，應用在各個營業活動層面上，我們剛才提到，我們明年就要設立金融市場發展與創新處，主要是因為我們金管會組織法第二條規定，我們的職責有四個，就是發展、監督、管理跟檢查，我覺得金管會需要有一個發展的部門，我們分成四個科，前面兩個科是創新一科、創新二科，第三個就是永續金融科，第四個就是市場發展科，從這個名稱就可以看得出來我們未來對這個市場有什麼樣的期待，跟委員做這個簡單的說明。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，主委，在114年度的預算案中，一般行政和金融監理的計畫項下，新設立的創新處，共編列了二千一百多萬的預算，對於金管會設立這個創新處的必要性及它肩負的責任，我表示理解，也認同推動數位轉型及永續發展的重要性，但是新創一個機構需要投入很多經費，應該注重這個經費運用的效率跟效益，請教主委，這二千多萬是要花在哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一個，很大的一部分就是人事費，聘人就是要錢。第二個，新的處需要有新的辦公處所，我們花了一千多萬，就是要裝潢那二十幾位同仁的辦公室跟採購這些辦公設備。"],["顏委員寬恒：但是我跟主委強調，當省則省，我們現在看到很多預算都非常不合理，我當然知道，我們主委應該是會嚴格把關，嚴格審核每一筆經費的必要性跟合理性，我們要拒絕不必要的開銷，也期望金管會在推動創新處的同時，有效地來控制經費的支出，做得多，用得少，確保每一份資金都可以發揮到它應有的價值。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：我再請教主委虛擬貨幣市場的問題，虛擬貨幣市場的監理是民眾高度關注的，因為隨著市場規模越來越大，技術發展的日新月異，對於金融市場的穩定和民眾財產安全，大家最關心的就是財產安全的部分，虛擬貨幣涉及的範疇非常廣泛，不管是資金流動、交易、監控，還是境外的資金運作，都對現行的監理機制形成非常大的挑戰，金管會的監理及監管作為，不只影響到市場秩序，還直接影響到社會對於金融機構的信任，所以金管會主委肩負很大的責任。在2023年12月，針對國內虛擬貨幣，就是VASP，金管會去年12月就已經展開專案調查，發現我們國內的企業，不管是內部控管、法規遵循，還有客戶審查，這些交易監控不足的問題，你們對於四家業者開罰，罰款累積超過550萬。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，金檢。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，超過550萬，這樣子做得對，就是要這樣子做，但是我相信不只這樣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，今年我們還在持續檢查。"],["顏委員寬恒：對、對、對，不只這樣，我們要把這些害群之馬，還有存著僥倖心態的業者，嚴加控管，如果業者屢勸不聽，你們祭出罰款之後，他們一樣屢勸不聽，一再犯錯，對於他們的內部控管和法規遵循的部分，金管會除了罰款之外，能夠採取什麼樣更進一步的手段？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想，如果馬上有專法的話，我們該有的機構管理的東西，我們全部都會有。現在是以洗錢防制為主，主要是未來這個專法出來以後，可以想像我們對這個機構的管理，包括人員發照、撤照，還有一些處分，都會完備。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以主委，專法速度一定要快啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在已經在進行中。"],["顏委員寬恒：什麼時候可以提出？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的草案我們在內部密集討論。"],["顏委員寬恒：還在討論？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們1月會對外公聽，然後6月底以前會送進行政院。"],["顏委員寬恒：6月？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，期待未來在開罰規範及教育投資人這部分一定要有更全面的作為，讓大家更清楚瞭解。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["顏委員寬恒：打造一個透明、公平、穩定的虛擬貨幣市場的環境，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝主委。那我接著請銀行局的莊局長。"],["莊局長琇媛：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：請教局長，我先前質詢的時候就有提到防止遊戲點數詐騙的問題，那你們提出的方案是說，回歸由發卡行來強化信用卡的風險控管，你們強調把這個部分回歸由發卡行來控管，避免他們內部的問題外部化，這是你們的說法，你們預計今年年底就可以上路，是這樣子嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，除了發卡行的控管之外，因為當時遊戲業者他們也有參與這樣子的討論，他們主動說願意跟銀行之間有一個聯防的機制，所以這個部分會繼續再討論下去。"],["顏委員寬恒：還在討論？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以現在是跟各大銀行溝通討論，還沒有訂一個期程嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：因為發卡機構自己的控管本來就已經有了，他們自己內部的機制要控管其實比較容易，至於討論的……"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有落實啊。因為我現在不斷地接到陳情，就是都一直有這些詐騙行為不斷發生，所以我要告訴你，我接到民眾的陳情，他在臉書上去買火影忍者鳴人的一番賞模型，開價4,700元，對方給他一個條碼，要他去超商繳款，他自己也很疑惑、不確定，但是對方一直催他，說不去繳錢的話就要賣給別人了，然後他就不得不去，只好去繳了，結果繳了之後才發現那4,700元是用來幫對方買娛樂城的點數，你知道娛樂城嗎？娛樂城就是網路下注那一種網站，有很多種娛樂城，不管是賭博的，還是遊戲的，都是那一種。他付了錢之後當然就找不到人了，就被放鳥了，對方也不回他了，所以4,700元就被騙走了。他有去警局報案，報案之後，發現對方是慣犯，用同樣的手法騙了很多人。一樣的手法可以持續地這樣子詐騙，不管那個是小錢還是大錢，有這個4,700，就有4萬7,000，就有47萬，就有400萬，臺灣目前每天受詐騙的金額好幾億，公布的數字是一、兩億，一年是三、四百億，其實不只，那只是冰山一角。針對這個部分，我是想說，像你們114年度的預算案，銀行監理編列了731萬7,000元，目的是要健全銀行業務的管理，那我認為這個進步的空間太大了。局長，你有什麼看法？光是112年的詐騙案件發生數是三萬七千多件，112年比前一年111年多出了8,300件，增幅是28.17%，這個是有揭露的，我跟你說，沒有揭露的真的很多，有可能是它的數倍，金管會祭出了很多防詐打詐的措施，但是真的是沒有得到滿意的效果，所以我們還是期許金管會銀行局加強監管的力道，好不好？"],["莊局長琇媛：好。委員，我們會儘量。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，一定要落實、要做。"],["莊局長琇媛：好，是。"],["主席：好，謝謝顏寬恒委員。","接著請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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art":582.003,"end":597.86,"text":"就是很多東西應該合法遵守我舉例齁那個我沒有接到具體的檢舉齁課外公司齁在有價證券這個買賣這個管理也是齁這是屬於是不是準用我國證交法是嘛齁然後這個有公有民眾具體齁檢舉課外公司明顯違反證交法像金管會舉發聽說你們不管啊"},{"start":599.642,"end":621.882,"text":"沒有我想這已經進入到司法程序了對那進入司法對下一個問題就是如果已經涉及刑事責任那當然刑事上我們檢調單位他應該負責嘛那在你們行政上來講今晚後來也不用管了嗎沒有我們當然會去研究這個案例因為這個是在境外的合併案是境外的合併案不只一個啦我這邊手上好幾個檢舉的案例啦我的意思是說我的意思是說"},{"start":623.231,"end":644.311,"text":"刑事的部分．調查有很多種．監管管理有很多種．刑事．法律上有刑事的．有行政的．刑事的我們交給檢調單位去．你們理由事實上也有檢察官．你們也有相關．你們也可以去調查．但是到了行政的部分．是不是你們就應該還是應該進行行政上的監管呢．還是你就真的你商人以後．就開始變成如大家所說．開始不管了．"},{"start":644.691,"end":646.994,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":659.688,"end":679.813,"text":"我們手頭上有相當多的這個這個不管是民間來的這個檢舉案件所以我們會一一的跟你們資料提供給你們希望你們要確實的這個監管當然我們依法辦理一定要依法辦理謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝陳一尊召委謝謝彭主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時47分）主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：有請金管會彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委，REITs我想大家都非常支持，這個法案也已經出了委員會。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們應該去追一下，因為那時候是民進黨的召委主持的，為什麼到現在，這個到底……你們也是執政團隊應該去詢問一下民進黨團，為什麼到現在這個案子都還沒有排上來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們在努力中。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！到底還有什麼議題嗎？因為大家都沒有什麼意見，這個也是相當好的法令。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：第二個本席也肯定你未雨綢繆做有關當沖降稅這件事情。明天的院會如果是按照民主程序，大家都循規蹈矩坐在座位上按表決鈕的話，那所有的法案都會循序通過或是否決，事實上當沖降稅，朝野各黨派也都沒有什麼意見，大家也都是支持延長3年。所以理論上明天只要民進黨不鬧場都會通過，但是你們還是要做相關的準備，這也是正確的。","有關金融消費者保護法，現在相關的這種租賃公司在全臺灣到底有多少家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實它的範圍很難界定，要看它登記，粗略沒有官方統計的應該是數千家。"],["陳委員玉珍：多少家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：數千家。"],["陳委員玉珍：數千？一千、三千、五千？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個就是它的邊界……"],["陳委員玉珍：數千，反正千家以上。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這個定義很難。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，好，沒關係，你們的粗略統計大概有數千家。"],["彭主任委員金隆：等於有幾千家。"],["陳委員玉珍：幾千家就對了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為經濟部那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：幾千家現在應該是屬於經濟部公司法所管的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：經濟部所主管的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我很肯定金管會願意承擔起這個責任，把原來經濟部所主管的這些公司，現在要納入你們金管會來主管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是大型的。"],["陳委員玉珍：怎麼可以分大型、小型呢？你們如果要主管，就是同一個產業都要列入納管，我舉例比如這個金融……"],["彭主任委員金隆：消費者保護法。"],["陳委員玉珍：金融消費者保護法，你要使用的是第三條嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：第三條，對。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是本法所定金融服務業，包括銀行業、證券業、期貨業、保險業、電子支付業及其他……"],["彭主任委員金隆：及其他經主管機關公告之金融服務業。"],["陳委員玉珍：經主管機關公告之金融服務業。金融服務業你們要做公告，所以你們公告的絕對不是一家、兩家的廠商，你們公告是這個產業。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個比較特別。"],["陳委員玉珍：這句話是「金融服務業」，一個產業……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以不管是一千家、兩千家，我很肯定你們願意把這一、兩千家納入金管會主管的範圍。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實沒有這個範圍。"],["陳委員玉珍：啊！什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我跟委員報告一下，等於分兩點，一個就那個條文，指定之產業……"],["陳委員玉珍：公告之金融服務業，它指的是產業，金融服務業這是指產業，金融服務業這是一個產業，不是某一家。"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如我們一般在講的融資公司……"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有的叫做融資租賃公司……"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有人叫做理財公司。"],["陳委員玉珍：不管，反正數千家。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在不是一個產業。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以它還不是一個產業？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它沒辦法定義，比如說銀行業我就定義它，沒有辦法，所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你認為這幾千家還不足以成為一個產業？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它有分各種、各式各樣，它其實不是一個成型一樣的……"],["陳委員玉珍：你如果要特別公告所謂的那三家，就是我們所謂的三大租賃業，那個本來就在你們監管的範圍，因為他們也是上市櫃公司，他們本來就接受你們監管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個強度不一樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果你們要把它納入，把那三家特別納入，我覺得你知道……您是學者出身嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道行政程序法吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我當然知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：行政程序法第六條，你知道是什麼嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們法務處處長……"],["陳委員玉珍：您知道，您學者出身也懂吧！我先請教主委，等一下就輪到您。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個抱歉，我承認……"],["陳委員玉珍：行政程序法第六條是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：第六條我不知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：那好，法務，第六條是什麼？把那個條文唸給我聽一下，這個叫行政法裡頭的平等行為吧。"],["林處長志憲：對，應該原則是平等行為。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，原則平等的行為嘛，我唸給你聽──「行政行為，非有正當理由，不得為差別待遇」，所以等則等之、不等則不等之，這個法務這邊沒有什麼意見嘛！我們學的行政法裡頭，這個是ABC。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的指正。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果這樣的情況下，你要特別的管制幾家業者，這造成一個不平等。我可以同意按照行政法規範，你可以全部產業都列管，因為金融消費者保護法也表示你要公告的是產業，而不是特定的家數，不然這造成行政上的不平等。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，就是有關……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個法律的事情，您回去研究一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題，我會研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：事實上我不畏懼任何人說我們接受任何陳情啦！我也是有接受陳情，因為本來對的事情就是應該做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，了解。"],["陳委員玉珍：政府的任何行政行為，不管影響到各個產業或是什麼，本來你們就應該要依法行政，這是最基本的原則。"],["彭主任委員金隆：還有一點跟委員簡單說明。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是說我們對融資公司，這麼多的公司裡面，上次行政院政委裡面有做分工的協調，金管會只會管部分的大型金融機構。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們該管的，就是你們照法規定，比如上市櫃公司屬於你們監管，任何一家，不管它是哪一個，本來就歸你們管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是大型的……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是如果按照產業，對產業某幾家挑起來管，你們本來在監管裡頭就應該監管，這個是你們合法的監管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一個，那個產業的範圍……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是如果你要做這個公告，就要依法公告。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個公告就必須按照法律第三條規定的，按照產業……"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果它的產業很明確……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果把這個產業整個搬到你這邊來公告，那個我也是尊重你，因為你要管數千家，你勇於承擔，我也是表示肯定。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這不可能，金管會不可能管數千家。"],["陳委員玉珍：不可能，你就不能做差別行為的待遇，這是行政法的規定。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有、沒有……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們今天不是辯這個，因為接下去我還有其他議題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，了解，謝謝。我找時間再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個你們回去再針對法律研究一下，再好好依法行政研究一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我要討論我們金門的議題，我們之前有去考察金門的金融環境，在那時候我們做了一些相關的結論，您知道金門現在位置特殊，在兩岸現在比較冰凍的情況下，包括旅遊業也是一樣，現在雖然大陸沒有開放到臺灣來旅遊，臺灣也沒有解除到大陸的禁團令，所以現在兩岸關係在觀光產業裡頭算是相當冰凍，在這種冰凍的情況下，兩岸交流是相對少的，就是比較冷、非常冰凍。但是金門很特別，金門這個地理位置很特別，還有它在這個特別的情況下，金門扮演一個還滿不錯的角色，那就是今天大陸客是可以到金門觀光旅遊的，大陸福建的居民是可以到金門，不管是團體或是自由行，這個是開放的，陸委會這邊也是同意的，就是說，兩岸的執政當局都同意，大陸的人可以到金門，金門的人可以到大陸，這個都是同意的，跟臺灣本島地區的作法有點不一樣。我覺得金管會也應該善用這個優勢，因為在之前我們去考察的時候，我們說出希望在金門地區是不是可以做一些兩岸金融相關的發展，兩岸之間不管怎麼樣，金融方面一定會有很多交流往來，這是無可避免的，人來來往往、貨來來往往，或是住在那邊的會過來，反正這個一定有，也許金門可以在這方面扮演一個角色。在我們之前考察結束有相關的新聞報導，我看到大陸國台辦特別針對這一點有說願意和金門同胞共同探索兩岸金融領域融合發展的新路徑新樣式，這是大陸特別提出來的。事實上我們是希望金門可以在這部分扮演什麼角色，但大陸也主動提出來這個說法。在這個部分，我看到陸委會有說法，針對這個部分說到，金融業赴金門去設點要市場驅動，而非政治力量；這個我也同意；接著又說，整體政策應該透過金管會來研析。也就是，陸委會認為在兩岸之間，金門在這方面是不是可以扮演什麼角色，應該是由你們再做一些研究。針對這個部分，您有什麼看法嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們陳副主委也有參與這次參訪。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：也有深入跟縣長……他回來就有說這件事情，後來看到媒體的報導，我們後面這些同仁，我回去就說這個議題要先開始研究一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，比如說保險方面，說不定大陸人到金門去就可以買保單什麼的，這個也是增進我們產業的發展啊！這都是有可能的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們現在就請同仁去……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們去研究一下啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：到時候再給我們一個報告，到時候大家再看怎麼樣在兩岸之間讓金門扮演這個角色，除了在旅遊、觀光方面，看能不能也幫助我們，國內說不定也有業者有這樣的需求。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員對金門很關心，我們會的。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是當然的，我是金門的立委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：接著我們看一下，據媒體報導，金管會今年裁罰金額劇減8,101萬，請問是因為什麼原因呢？是沒有更有效的監管方式呢？還是大家都變乖了？因為你上任以後……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：還是你們力道鬆懈了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員也是法律專家，我們講刑期無刑，政府的公權力不是為了裁罰，如果單只兩年就說怎麼樣，我覺得也是很特別，我想這個完全沒辦法這樣比擬，我上任就講過，其實監理不能鬆，但是發展不能忘。我想……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，這個我也肯定你，事實上，業界也有很多肯定，希望有一些創新的改變。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為去年有幾個……"],["陳委員玉珍：不過對於應該合法遵守的，很多都應該合法遵守，我舉例，我們有接到具體的檢舉，KY公司有價證券買賣管理是不是準用我國證交法？是嘛！有民眾具體檢舉KY公司明顯違反證交法，向金管會舉發，聽說你們不管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想這已經進入到司法程序……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，進入司法，下一個問題就是，如果已經涉及刑事責任，那當然刑事上檢調單位應該負責，但在你們行政上來講，金管會也不用管了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們當然會去研究這個案例，因為這個是在境外的合併案，是境外的合併案……"],["陳委員玉珍：不只一個啦！我這邊手上好幾個檢舉案例。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然……"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是說，刑事的部分，調查有很多種，管理有很多種，法律上有刑事的、有行政的，刑事的部分我們交給檢調單位去查，但你們裡頭事實上也有檢察官，你們也有相關權力，你們也可以去調查。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是到了行政的部分，是不是你們還是應該進行行政上的監管？還是真的你上任以後就開始變成如大家所說的，就開始不管了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。跟委員報告，該我們管的，我們不是想不想管，我們也跑不掉，該我們管的，我們就是要管，沒有說想不想管的問題，我想這個是應該的。如果不是我們管的話，你不是想管就能管。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以行政上的監管應該還是要存在嘛，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果它是屬於我們轄管範圍，我們當然要管。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們手頭上有相當多民間來的檢舉案件，所以我們會一一將資料提供給你們。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，歡迎。"],["陳委員玉珍：希望你們要確實監管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們依法辦理，一定。"],["陳委員玉珍：一定要依法辦理。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍召委，謝謝彭主委。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍）：接著請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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Tahovecahe委員：你就直觀的認為。"],["彭主任委員金隆：直觀的，我覺得可能是人數和資源條件的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我跟你說，這個理由真是氣死人，它表示是需求人數未達營運規模。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，是人數的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那政府就很奇怪了，口口聲聲說要做長照，又說我們的投資標的也可以放入長照，但是又告訴你說它的需求人數未達營運標準，這真的是非常矛盾，所以我想要請教一下主委，山地原鄉長期缺乏住宿型機構，這是事實，在促參2.0上路之後，政府要推動財政部的「有償PPP」模式，這也是事實，你認為這是不是就有助於國內壽險業的資金投資我們原鄉的長照？你認為？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，其實我在很多場合都提過，其實壽險業是有高度興趣投入國內的長照，但是因為壽險業的資金有成本，它的投資一定要有合理的回報，否則它沒有辦法因應它的負債結構，所以假設任何一個投資的內容本身有自償性，比如假設這個長照機構可以收住宿費，如果再加上政府的補貼，那這樣它就有穩定的報酬，政府就不用出錢來營建，它就可以透過這個資金進來，譬如它也可以用發債的方式，然後給予固定的債息，它就可以長期的投資，再加上政府的保證，具有穩定的收入，那就有可能做到這一點。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，我看起來也是如此。","我們來看一下這次2024年保險論壇，壽險公會的常務理事吳杰說，壽險業者是有意願的，又說社宅醫療也是他們願意投資的項目；南山人壽總經理范文偉也提到，他們希望未來的公共建設能夠有更多元的投資方式，包括REITs或者是PE債券化、證券化。總而言之，他就是希望公共建設要證券化、債券化，增加公共建設的金融商品，畢竟這是大家的期待，可是事實是，我們政府的公債數量確實不多，所以這個投報率是很重要的關鍵，因此看起來我們國內的壽險業者對於投資長照這個公共建設並非沒有意願，但是希望可以擺脫過往政府這種採購的思維，透過好的金融商品去做籌資，特別是基金、債券。但是到底要發行什麼商品，它的投報率到底能不能過高？所以我要特別請教一下主委，如果說我們要提高投資報酬率，讓壽險資金願意配合政府的政策投入公共建設，您認為到底要怎麼做？特別是原鄉的長照或公共建設。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實我們在這次兆元投資計畫裡面有一個很重要的概念，就是希望我們的公部門釋出未來可能會證券化或債券化的案源。比如說我們剛剛講的假設，債券化現在已經有幾個個案在談怎麼樣發這個永續債方式，尤其有很多地方政府是很有興趣，我想這個應該很快會有些成績。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我就是想知道進度如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這部分已經在談。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：像REITs也有規劃嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：REITs因為還在立法院，我們希望說，看看如果能夠儘快通過的話……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要超前部署啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有規劃嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：REITs當然已經很多人在做準備了，因為這個大家都很看好，其他國家這個部分是用來包裝公建，成為一個證券化很重要的一個工具。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是有進度的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在就是在立法院。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：進展中的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們已經請我們的周邊單位開始去研議這些東西，但是還要等法律通過。另外一個就是說，我們也請我們的交易所跟櫃買，由他們董事長領軍，請他成立一個義務性的組織，叫做資本市場服務團來協助我們的政府機關，如果說你有好的案源，你怕沒有證券化的知識，沒關係，它可以來幫忙評估，然後做出一個我們市場可以接受的產品。我們希望這個……也有在談的，像剛才講說，前一陣子國發會主委也提到我們的自來水漏水很嚴重，假設有人願意來投資再來做的話……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：單單就以漏水，就會來償付這個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們會有一個服務團專門來協助大家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：看怎麼把它證券化。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，包括中央、地方政府……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：債券化？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果你願意把你的未來有有償性的，比如說剛剛像委員以前提到的，假如是原鄉，它除了長照以外能結合觀光，就是它除了那個長照，可能是規模不夠、不賺錢……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它會規劃？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果能夠結合，一個共同開發產生收益，就像我們蓋一個車站不賺錢，但它上面有些商業利益，就有可能成為一個可行的方案，就可以朝這個方向來試。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，非常謝謝，我希望主委在這方面要多多替我們原鄉引進投資來幫我們做設計規劃。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是我們普惠金融想推的，對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，剛剛您也有提到像是這些長照，我們也有聽到像證期局的官員，風力發電、太陽能發電都有包含在這個當中，表示大家是有意願的，但是我也想介紹一下，主委，其實現在原鄉也很想做這些生質能發電、再生能源的開發利用，畢竟我們的廢材、廢料很多。現在氣候變遷，這樣異常的狀況下，我們也很需要去發展來自給自足，在政府部分，像經濟部能源署也有一些再生能源的示範獎勵辦法。","但是我跟您說，現在推出以來沒有任何一個鄉公所願意投入，為什麼？因為它為了補助1,000萬元，它要自籌4,000萬元，其實融資始終是一個最大的問題；又或者像公民電廠的獎勵辦法，協會、合作社可以來申請，但是一樣啊，為了那一點點的錢，要找更多的錢來投資，所以也都卡關。我知道你們金管會曾經提出一個叫綠色授信，請教一下主委，這個要怎麼幫助我們原鄉如何參與這一類的事情？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在在做綠色金融轉型行動方案裡面，怎麼樣支持綠色轉型跟產業是我們的一個方向。這個我們要按照個案來看它的內容，因為這畢竟還是一個商業行為。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這部分如果有個案的話，我們可以來評估。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，主委因為時間的關係，總之像怎麼活用這些REITs、綠色授信，很多工具的部分我還是希望金管會再幫忙多想一想。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：希望在3個月內給我一個報告，讓我知道我們可以怎麼樣共同來協助原鄉來發展。"],["彭主任委員金隆：請委員提供幾個具體的案例給我們來評估。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：吸引未來有人願意投入參與，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席（顏委員寬恒代）：好，謝謝伍委員質詢，謝謝彭主委。","接下來請陳玉珍召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司（僅詢答）；三、審查中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管：\n（僅詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1140901_00002"}}},{"id":"158247","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158247","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/377778736565467587817feddb3650ef53481301b577a5e53ccd2cad39e601c071a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:23:49 - 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都要上萬元前面我們有提到說其實我買這個東西才三萬元但是我後面要進入調解的費用可能就要好幾千塊甚至上萬塊這個對業者來說他們有陳情這個對他們來說負擔非常重"},{"start":194.974,"end":219.351,"text":"有時候消費者的爭議不完全是業者錯誤有時候是在法規上的問題有時候是消費者問題不管這是個案的問題但是我覺得我之前在其他會當中都有反映這件事情我們也希望透過這個協調會把無論調解的費用如何去降低因為這麼多他可能消費的爭議只有三萬塊只有五千塊只有六千塊可是光這樣一個調解爭議就要好幾千塊甚至是上萬塊這個問題如何去做解決"},{"start":224.915,"end":241.472,"text":"我們大家有互動有答案有共識也都各自帶著功課回家我們也希望儘速的我們把大家私底下你們也都多溝通然後儘速的配合我們可以趕快上路但是絕對不是像"},{"start":242.873,"end":255.255,"text":"某些委員開協調會就有人質疑說你們被施壓了我覺得在立法院個別委員都彼此互相尊重每天每一個委員立法院113位委員各自都有普通的協調會在溝通"},{"start":257.233,"end":261.919,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":276.957,"end":303.242,"text":"主席 主委我上次問過你那個我們的TWIC是要上路的部分2026 1月1號我們要適用新的會計準則那你當時在這個會期上個會期的時候你有答應我說我們會有第4個階段你有說明過而且11月底前會有定案那也讓業者有足夠時間來準備那我們現在第4期我注意到的是我還沒公布是對不對還沒還沒"},{"start":304.082,"end":326.419,"text":"那我們是不是有碰到什麼困難因為當時你有說有一些變數我們可能要調整包括調整一些風險的係數還有一些其他的問題那到底我們碰到哪些挑戰跟問題那委員剛剛我簡短回應你剛剛好簡短因為我只有三分鐘我知道剛剛那融資公司我們還是期待多溝通大家有共識趕快來做"},{"start":329.5,"end":342.624,"text":"我們有施壓嗎?沒有啦,我覺得溝通是很重要的啦因為他們如果說對於我們講不清楚我覺得繼續溝通因為畢竟這個是一個比較特殊的做法一定要大家有共識"},{"start":343.604,"end":366.589,"text":"因為法規上你們其實不可以針對三家你們是要一體適用你非常清楚好沒關係沒關係我們就是希望他趕快做對大家多溝通對來那第二個有關那個我們第四階段的部分其實我們現在因為主要是這樣我們第四階段主要剛剛講有兩個主要的做法一個叫做在地化一個叫做過渡化一個叫做過渡嘛"},{"start":367.449,"end":390.883,"text":"那過渡的部分應該都差不多現在就在地化的部分因為我們現在就是要針對一些我們自己所適用的這些的參數來做那哪些參數你現在要調整比如說舉個例您現在是舉例過所以接下來什麼時候會公佈那哪些參數你會增加我們還是年底以前會公佈我們做的12月31日之前會公佈第4階段就是我們現在就是比如說我們利率的SHOCK"},{"start":391.383,"end":398.968,"text":"離併率、長壽、SHARC、資本市長有資料可以來算假設有台灣的資料更可信的時候,我們就會朝這幾個方向來做在地化方法論我們是用國際的標準,但是資料當然是我們自己最好"},{"start":417.1,"end":437.541,"text":"在地化會增加幾個係數就對了這幾個只要是我們臺灣有係數的部分我們都會考慮好所以那我最後一個問題我們最終還沒有定案最後我還是在年底之前我會跟大家報告那會有第五階段嗎在20261月1號之前就是說我們是應該這樣講我們一個政策一定是希望周延所以我想說"},{"start":438.422,"end":438.763,"text":"現在是沒有這樣的一個計劃但是"},{"start":453.925,"end":467.718,"text":"未來接軌要一年很長的時間有什麼重大的比如國際政經情勢的變化我覺得還是你可能會做滾動式的調整那當然是所有政策所必要的好謝謝主委好我這個議題結束好這個主委我接下來要問一下詐騙的議題"},{"start":469.76,"end":486.88,"text":"詐騙的議題其實是詐騙之島、臺灣人之痛我覺得心裡很難過前陣子在我內湖兩個被詐騙的母女就這樣失去生命所以如何更積極有效的做法我覺得要去做一些調整跟討論"},{"start":488.041,"end":517.069,"text":"所以主委現在無論對於人頭賬戶的管理、臨櫃的關懷我們有做了幾件事情我都非常的支持那但是第一個就是我們現在銀行局有盯上跳槽族這件事情主委你應該也有小孩小孩也會開始出去找工作我現在面臨幾個年輕人也跟我陳情就是說他們剛開始可能會在工作前期可能一個工作做兩個月三個月他可能會跳槽"},{"start":517.669,"end":519.511,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案"},{"start":538.055,"end":565.077,"text":"很痛苦的事情所以在這些年輕人有跟我陳情在這些轉換的過程當中有沒有什麼更好的做法比如說我們可不可以主動跟勞動部去做一些溝通協調還是說在他的同意底下就是說他們在簽說如果6個月之內你有什麼工作的轉換你可以去從勞動部調他的資料他是有薪資轉換我同意你們對高風險的人口帳戶做列管但是同時我們有什麼樣的機制"},{"start":567.139,"end":591.255,"text":"我們每個人都可能有一個銀行以上不同銀行的帳戶當然當然所以這件事情如何做更妥善的處理這個齁 這個跟委員報告一樣其實齁 這個我最近跟金融機構因為我們現在從11月開始我們要求所有的銀行都要設置打詐主管是那執行責任地圖制齁那裡面一個很重要的就是說我們希望他做精準的打擊"},{"start":592.717,"end":610.998,"text":"所以精準答案就剛才講說確實我們現在很多的新轉戶就是高頻的那種新轉戶是成為是那個很喜歡去收購的這樣那個確實我們看到所以剛才講說很多比如年輕人因為他轉換工作比較頻繁可能就會被列為是一個高風險的帳號當然有些是很正常的轉值所以我們講說要怎麼精準"},{"start":612.059,"end":614.581,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分．有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分．"},{"start":635.254,"end":639.236,"text":"沒有問題的這個我第一個提醒他個人可以怎麼處理然後你們可以怎麼樣跟勞動部做勾結這第一點第二點現在10件詐騙案有9件都還是從所有的平台無論LINE、臉書、TikTok還是YouTube"},{"start":654.825,"end":670.563,"text":"都從這邊出來我們到底我知道這是數位部的問題還有其他單位我們也有這部分我們對那個投資就是那個涉及證券的部分那一塊除了這樣子我們政府有所有的單位我們怎麼樣因為我覺得他們做的並不好"},{"start":671.699,"end":696.231,"text":"我們也沒有好好的說我們現在已經有做一個新的做法不投放廣告或者還有什麼其他的手段工具我們政府應該做你知道這個真的是每天服務處都接到這麼多的電話被詐騙我真的是不知道所以這一點我們有注意到這個可能做法我不方便在這邊說對於這個廣告下架的這個部分我們有新的做法什麼時候會公佈這個不公佈"},{"start":698.592,"end":726.514,"text":"這個因為我們不能對外講對外講他就知道我們怎麼做那你會做已經在做已經在做那我什麼時候可以看到具體的成效那我希望也能夠有成效因為我們也說因為我也講說這種打詐的方法我們最好不要再公開的說因為公開說其實很多他就知道我們對應的方法主委我同意但是我期待看到你的成效是是我們也期待我現在看到我們打詐的方法過了但成效並不好你非常的清楚數量數量數字數量其實都越來越多"},{"start":728.295,"end":728.756,"text":"接著我們請吳立懷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":658,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時24分）謝謝主席。我可不可以請一下主委？"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，謝謝。我們還是回到金管會最重要的業務，還有這個會期我曾經質詢過的。剛才前面幾位委員也都非常關心租賃業者的消費金融業務要不要納入金保法這件事情。前幾個禮拜，我們有幾個委員也針對這件事情召開過協調會，協調會的共識其實非常清楚，為了協助業者改善體質、健全保護消費者的權益和政府制度化的規範，其實大家是有共識要納入金保法，但是我們都知道，這些業者跟一般的金融業者不一樣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它會擔心。"],["李委員彥秀：如果都要納入，那應該是六千多家都要納入，租賃業者並不是一般的金融業者，在適用上，我們覺得 思考要更周全，現場公會是願意配合的，所以剛才你講的，無論是前面的法律適用等各方面，我們都應該考慮得更周全，免得像新青安政策一樣，推出來，但是後面朝令夕改或留下很多不同的後遺症。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們希望多溝通。"],["李委員彥秀：但是會中，無論是所有的委員、公會、業者，還有金管會，大家都是有共識同意要納入。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是也必須要考量幾件事情，因為不只這三、四家，其他六千多家是否適用？他們也在看金管會怎麼說，你必須要有一個更完整的說法，因為這是全面性的，法令不可能只針對某幾家，而是全國六千多家的租賃業者，這必須要有一個更完整的說法，這你也非常清楚。但是金管會對於業者的納入，包括業者要納入金保法的管理、系統的調整、合約的調整、人員的訓練，這些都勢必要給予緩衝期，這件事情在所有新的法規要做的時候，我相信都需要有一些準備的作業時間，不論是你們在法規上做準備；業者、公會在法規上做準備，勢必都要做得更完整，這才有機會獲得雙贏。所以業者納入金保法之後，他們還有提出一個，未來納入消費爭議，譬如我買一個按摩椅，先用後付，如果發生爭議，這個調解費動輒都要上萬元。前面我們有提到，其實我買這個東西才3萬元，但是我後面要進入調解的費用可能就要好幾千元，甚至上萬元，這對業者來說，他們有陳情，這對他們來說負擔非常重，有時候消費者的爭議不完全是業者的錯，有時候是法規的問題、有時候是消費者的問題，不管，這是個案的問題。之前在協調會中，他們都有反映這件事情，我們也希望透過這個協調會來降低調解的費用，因為這個費用這麼多，他消費的金額可能只有3萬元或5,000元、6,000元，可是光是這樣的調解爭議，調解費就要好幾千元，甚至是上萬元，這個問題要如何解決？我們大家有互動、答案和共識，也都各自帶著功課回家，我們也希望儘速，你們私底下也多溝通，儘速配合趕快上路。但是絕對不是像某一些委員開協調會，就有人質疑你們被施壓了，我覺得立法院個別委員都應該彼此互相尊重，立法院113位委員，每天都各自有不同的協調會在溝通，難道每個委員都會施壓嗎？我覺得所有的事情都可以留下公評，所有的會議紀錄都可以留下來讓大家去考證，但是不要隨便批評別人的委員會，這是第一點，有關金保法我要質詢的部分。","第二點，主委，我上次問過你TW-ICS要上路的部分，2026年1月1日我們要適用新的會計準則，上個會期的時候，你有答應我說我們會有第四個階段，你有說明過，而且11月底前會有定案，也會讓業者有足夠的時間來準備。"],["彭主任委員金隆：年底，對。"],["李委員彥秀：我注意到第四期還沒有公布，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還沒。"],["李委員彥秀：我們是不是碰到什麼困難？因為當時你有說，有一些變數我們可能還要調整，包括調整一些風險係數，還有其他的問題，到底碰到哪些挑戰跟問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，委員，我簡短回應你剛剛前面說的那個。"],["李委員彥秀：好，簡短一點，因為我只有3分鐘。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我知道。剛剛那個融資公司我們還是期待多溝通，大家有共識後就趕快來做。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，那我問你，我們有施壓嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我覺得溝通是很重要的，如果他們對於我們講得不清楚，我覺得就繼續溝通，畢竟這是一個比較特殊的作法，大家一定要有共識。"],["李委員彥秀：因為法規上你們其實不可以針對3家，你們要一體適用，你非常清楚，沒關係。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒關係，我們就是希望它趕快做。"],["李委員彥秀：對，大家多溝通，來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：第二個，有關第四階段的部分。"],["李委員彥秀：對，TW-ICS。"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是這樣，我剛才講了，第四階段主要有兩個作法，一個叫做在地化、一個叫做……"],["李委員彥秀：過渡化。"],["彭主任委員金隆：一個叫做過渡，過渡的部分都差不多了，現在是在地化的部分，因為我們現在要針對一些我們自己所適用的參數來做試算。"],["李委員彥秀：你現在要調整哪些參數？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說，我舉個例……"],["李委員彥秀：你上次舉例過了，所以接下來什麼時候會公布？哪些參數會增加？"],["彭主任委員金隆：年底前我們會公布我們的作法。"],["李委員彥秀：好，12月31日之前公布第四階段。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，比如利率的shock，還有比如我們的罹病率、長壽的shock這些，我們都有自己的資料。還有比如我們自己的資本市場，我們也有自己的資料可以來算，諸如此類。假設臺灣有可信的資料時，我們大概就會朝這幾個方向來做在地化。方法論我們是用國際的標準，但是我們的資料當然是有我們自己的最好。"],["李委員彥秀：所以在地化會增加幾個係數就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這幾個只要是我們臺灣有係數的部分，我們都會考慮。"],["李委員彥秀：好。最後一個問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們還沒有最終的定案，年底之前我會跟大家報告。"],["李委員彥秀：好。那會有第五階段嗎？2026年1月1號之前。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，應該這樣講，我們的政策一定是希望能夠周延，所以我想，如果……"],["李委員彥秀：就分階段啦！我覺得每一件事政府都要分階段做，這個我同意嘛！你要公布對租賃業者的新法規，但是這件事情都會分階段來做，所以會有第五階段嗎？有可能嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在還沒有這樣的計畫，但是未來要接軌還有一年的時間，這個時間很長，如果有什麼重大的事件，比如國際政經情勢的變化，我覺得這還是……"],["李委員彥秀：你可能會做滾動式的調整？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，那是所有政策所必要的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝主委，這個議題結束。主委，接下來我要問一下詐騙的議題，詐騙的議題其實是：詐騙之島，臺灣人之痛。我覺得心裡很難過，前陣子在我內湖的選區，有兩個被詐騙的母女就這樣失去生命，所以如何有更積極有效的作法，我覺得要去做一些調整跟討論。所以主委，現在不論是對人頭帳戶的管理、臨櫃的關懷，我們都有做幾件事情，這個我都非常支持，但是第一個，現在銀行局有盯上跳槽族這件事情，主委，你應該也有小孩，小孩會開始出去找工作，我現在面臨幾個年輕人跟我陳情，因為他們剛開始工作，在工作的前期，可能一個工作只做1個月、2個月，他就跳槽了，譬如我的助理之前在臺北市政府工作，他領的是富邦銀行撥款的薪水，後來轉來立法院，他領的是臺灣銀行撥款的薪水，因為我們的薪水就是這樣撥，所以此時他就變成人頭高風險帳戶，因為他在富邦銀行就沒有存錢了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不斷地換帳戶就對了。"],["李委員彥秀：那個機制對他來說是很痛苦的事情，年輕人跟我陳情，在這個轉換的過程中，有沒有什麼更好的作法？譬如我們可不可以主動跟勞動部去做一些溝通、協調，還是說在他同意底下，就是他們可以簽註如果6個月之內他有工作轉換，你可以去勞動部調他的資料，看他是不是有薪資的轉換。我同意你們對高風險人頭帳戶做列管，但是同時我們有什麼樣的機制，因為每個人都可能有一個銀行以上、不同銀行的帳戶，所以這件事要如何做更妥善的處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個跟委員報告一下，其實從11月開始，我們就要求所有的銀行都要設置打詐主管，執行責任地圖制，那裡面有一個很重要的就是，我們希望它做精準的打擊，所謂精準的打擊就是剛才講的，確實我們現在有很多的薪轉戶，我們也看到高頻率的薪轉戶是詐騙集團很喜歡收購的，所以剛才講說，譬如年輕人因為轉換工作比較頻繁，可能就被列為高風險的帳號。當然，有些是很正常的轉職，所以我們講說要怎麼樣精準的掌握這個東西。"],["李委員彥秀：對，譬如我的助理從臺北市政府轉到立法院來上班，如果他拿薪資報告去跟富邦銀行解釋說，我只是轉到這裡，我完全是正常的，這可以怎樣去做處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們一定會朝這個方向來精進，確實，因為所有的警示項目，一定有些是真的，有些是沒有問題的。"],["李委員彥秀：對，這是我第一個提醒，他個人可以怎麼處理？然後你們可以怎麼樣跟勞動部勾稽？這是第一點。第二點，現在10件詐騙案，有9件都還是從社群平臺，無論是LINE、臉書、TikTok、IG或是YouTube，都是從這邊出來的，我知道這是數發部的問題，還有其他單位。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也有這部分。"],["李委員彥秀：你們也有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們的是涉及證券那一塊。"],["李委員彥秀：除了這樣子，我們政府所有的單位，我們要怎麼樣？因為我覺得他們做得並不好，我們也沒有好好的做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我跟委員報告，我們現在有一個新的作法。"],["李委員彥秀：不投放廣告，或者還有什麼其他的手段、工具，我們政府應該要做，你知道這個真的是，我的服務處每天接到這麼多被詐騙的電話，我真的不知道……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這點我們有注意到，這個作法我不方便在這邊說，對於廣告下架這部分，我們有新的作法，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：什麼時候會公布？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個不公布，我們不能對外講，對外講它就知道我們怎麼做。"],["李委員彥秀：那你會做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：已經在做。"],["李委員彥秀：我什麼時候可以看到具體的成效？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我也希望能夠有成效，因為這種打詐的方法，我們最好不要公開的說，因為公開的說他們就會知道我們的對應方法。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我同意，但是我期待看到你的成效。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們也期待。"],["李委員彥秀：因為打詐專法通過後，成效並不好，你非常的清楚，數字和數量都越來越多，越打詐越多，因為詐騙集團的手法也不斷地在進步。我們在進步，他們也在進步，他們甚至還有一個教戰手則教導提錢時要怎麼樣因應銀行的人不讓你領。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個確實。"],["李委員彥秀：他們什麼都有教戰手則，所以我們一定要滾動式調整，不斷地精進。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：再拜託你們，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員。","接著請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司（僅詢答）；三、審查中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管：\n（僅詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1140901_00002"}}},{"id":"158246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158246","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/377778736565467564ceedfa12c3a428ed4c8b3bbbcd3c6b3ccd2cad39e601c007257f5fd76a241a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:08:10 - 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預算現在那隻87年你講得很快我還沒問到哪裏死亡不可回復受重傷可能傷殘因此他不能夠得到因為他生活會因為這個難以平復的傷害他會陷入困頓對不對所以部長"},{"start":113.937,"end":117.742,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":128.257,"end":143.664,"text":"因為他那個他那個心裡受到身心受到一個創傷吼這一種的傷害事實上跟我們那個跟我們傷殘是同等的那個重傷士氣是是同樣嚴重的而且幾乎很難回復對不對對好那往下看"},{"start":144.444,"end":148.908,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":170.792,"end":174.841,"text":"市場秘片清查後有未成年的少女會去拍攝。"},{"start":178.001,"end":200.88,"text":"對不對?那我們往下看。那請問一下,這些性暴力的被害人,我說的性暴力的被害人,他們受到的包括什麼?他們可能會覺得有壓力症候群,會自責,會反而做噩夢,甚至呢他們要面對討回公道要漫長的司法程序。請問,部長,你認為性侵害或性影響的被害人是不是都面臨到同樣的困境?"},{"start":202.571,"end":226.371,"text":"的確這些那個性侵害跟性影像的被害人,性侵害我們那個已經有列入了。是的。那個性影像的這部分是他整個這個不是一個身體受到的一個。他雖然不是身體直接受傷害,可是在他的性影像的製作或散佈的過程當中有同樣的問題。我們舉個例,來,次長要幫忙講,我們等一下看,次長你也幫忙回答。"},{"start":227.196,"end":228.717,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":249.645,"end":252.947,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務"},{"start":276.019,"end":282.783,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":299.81,"end":326.47,"text":"犯法法這樣規定只是遏止傷害擴大,有沒有對被害人進行保護或補償?有沒有?部長你覺得呢?往下看。有沒有?其他的那個三法是沒有,它是的確是像委員所講的齁,就是對加害者的這部分刑務者的一個加重,以及避免損害的一個擴大。但是我們看到了,但是犯罪被害人權益保障法它保護的目的是被害人。"},{"start":327.694,"end":350.337,"text":"檢察長是不是這樣子?您的理事長,張理事長,稱問這樣嗎?我是董事長。噢,董事長,對不起。董事長,基金是董事長。檢察長是這樣嗎?所以你們成立的目的是要保障,或者保護被害人嗎?對,我們是希望保護所有的被害人。好,那往下看。謝謝我們董事長,張董事長。很難得人家有人叫你中檔。"},{"start":352.666,"end":381.217,"text":"犯罪被害人權益保障法第3條其實你看看我們已經把性侵害當中至少把刑法的第221條還有兒少性剝削防治條例的33、34、35、36到37其實部長你對這個法條熟不熟還是要請黃次長答這些兒少性剝削防治從33條到第37條他處理的是什麼行為加害人的什麼行為"},{"start":383.817,"end":413.163,"text":"有沒有人知道?市長知道嗎?來市長講一下33就是怎麼樣?他對兒少進行挾持要強命他拍攝甚至在侵犯過程中在錄影對不對?33、34、35、36、37這5條都是直接這個加害人他是因為要製作影像而直接對當事人進行加害是不是這樣子?但是這些已經納入了犯保法了喔"},{"start":414.096,"end":441.563,"text":"但是有些犯罪是什麼我已經找不到誰做的影像了他可能偷拍但是這些影像的散播跟持有這些兒少性影像是不是同樣對被害人產生同樣的傷害他沒有直接對他這些行為人的現場的對身體的限制強迫可是後面的這些影像的散播他的傷害是同樣的市長你是不是這樣子"},{"start":441.883,"end":443.084,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":470.843,"end":475.507,"text":"黃次長你說了三個部分啊你說第一個一個是量能的問題"},{"start":476.892,"end":480.635,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":502.264,"end":504.746,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":510.919,"end":511.899,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":537.742,"end":559,"text":"好,你來看一下目前性侵的被害人他有生活重建有訴訟協助有保護命令有補償金但是性影像的被害人呢只有保護命令保護命令是什麼避免傷害擴大他有沒有生活重建有沒有訴訟協助有沒有補償金董事長看你宅心人後你覺不覺得未來性影像的被害人可以把這三個部分都補上"},{"start":560.379,"end":581.782,"text":"法務委員,這部分有待進一步的研議,那基本上如果能夠去多加保護,那我們也是贊成,只是剛剛那個黃市長有提到相關的一些的配套的一個措施,恐怕要再更深入的一個研議。委員現在請你上來,因為你白髮斑斑,慈眉善目,應該經常比我們次長好。"},{"start":583.021,"end":589.603,"text":"除了要求加強查緝性影像犯罪並下架犯罪影片之外,犯保法修法來強化包括性影像犯罪的被害人保障。"},{"start":603.516,"end":621.873,"text":"部長看你的態度囉你應該心腸也跟我們張董事長一樣第一項我們來全力來做那第二項的話我們真的是要研議那我們還要在內部再做一個研議那我想我們會最快速度跟委員來做一個報告"},{"start":622.073,"end":644.206,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":645.675,"end":662.758,"text":"報告委員,我想這部分我們會進一步研議,如果是可行的話當然我也樂觀啟程。您不適合講研議,你說我們努力來推動,研議是交給部裡面好不好?您努力來推動可以嗎?謝謝委員。謝謝委員是什麼意思?是我可以下台了嗎?"},{"start":663.945,"end":667.049,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1280,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時8分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生，我們有請鄭部長及犯保董事長的張檢察長，也請黃謀信黃常次。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早，委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，檢察長好，還有次長好。今天我要談到的是為了強化被害人保障及扶助，犯保法應該納入性影像的犯罪。請問部長，我上次有跟你請教過，為什麼目前臺灣詐騙這麼嚴重，這些詐騙的被害人這麼多，有沒有考慮把它納入犯罪被害人的權益保障法，你說這個你不太認同，為什麼？什麼原因？詐騙犯罪這麼嚴重，犯保法為什麼不把這些詐騙的受害人納入呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：詐騙的被害人這部分我們在詐欺危害防制條例第五十三條應該都有做一個保護了，我們犯罪被害人權益保障法最主要還是在保障、在補償。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是以補償為出發點，我們來看一下，哪些犯罪的被害人適用犯保法，87年犯保法第一條怎麼說？你直接講，我都幫你列出來了。"],["張檢察長斗輝：因為犯罪被害而死亡的遺屬，或者受重傷，另外還有性侵這部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是87年，你講得很快，我還沒問到那裡，死亡不可回復，受重傷可能傷殘，他的生活會因為這難以平復的傷害而陷於困頓，對不對？所以部長，被害人承受不能或難以回復的傷害是我們犯保法的優先適用，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛檢察長也說了，98年將性侵害的被害人納入，為什麼性侵害要比照死亡跟重傷？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為他的身心受到創傷，這種的傷害事實上跟我們肉體的重傷其實是一致的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：同樣嚴重的，而且幾乎很難回復，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：納入犯保的原則，如果是財產犯罪的話，他的財產可能拿回來了，他的傷害可能就平復了，但是不管是死亡、傷殘、重傷害或性犯罪，它的傷害重大且難以完全回復，這是我們納入犯保的原則，你同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可是你來看，最近的性影像犯罪，創意私房，他私藏私密片，清查之後有未成年的少女或一些拍攝，你知道這個問題很嚴重嘛！對不對！請問一下，這些性暴力的被害人，我說的性暴力的被害人他們受到的包括他們可能覺得有壓力症候群、會自責、會反覆做噩夢，甚至他們要面對討回公道要漫長的司法程序，請問部長，你認為性侵害或性影像的被害人是不是都面臨到同樣的困境？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確這些性侵害、性影像的被害人，性侵害已經有列入了，性影像的部分不是身體受到性侵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他雖然不是身體直接受傷害，可是在他的性影像的製作或散播的過程中有同樣的問題，我們舉個例，因為性愛片外流，結果網路上逼死了一個女子，走上絕路，是不是不亞於直接的身體受到侵害？性影像的侵害對被害人是不是同樣的嚴重，你認為呢？"],["黃次長謀信：事實上，為了防制性影像的問題，我們在犯罪被害人保護法上次修法的時候，我們把相關的保護另有防制相關的性影像的流竄。另外在性侵害防治法裡面也特別規定相關保護的規定，在我們上次修法的四法裡面，聯防四法其實已經做了相關的處理了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，你剛好印證了我幫你整理好的，部長你看，刑法我們增加第二十八章之一妨害性隱私及不實影像罪章，針對加害人加重刑責，把他的犯罪懲罰加重。兒少性剝削防制條例，你拍攝、散布、持有也是加重刑責。這是對犯罪者的，但是對被害人的呢？你說性侵害防治法我們要求下架，對不對！只是防止傷害擴大而已，有沒有對被害人予以補償？犯罪被害人權益保障法有說可命加害人移除影像，犯保法這樣規定只是遏止傷害擴大，有沒有對被害人進行保護或補償？部長你覺得呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：其他的三法沒有，的確像委員所講的，就是對加害者的刑責加重，以及避免損害擴大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是犯罪被害人權益保障法保護的目的是被害人，檢察長是不是這樣子？稱呼你張理事長。"],["張檢察長斗輝：我是董事長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：董事長對不起，基金是董事長，檢察長是這樣嗎？你們成立的目的是要保障或者保護被害人嘛！"],["張檢察長斗輝：對，我們希望保護所有的被害人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝張董事長，很難得，有沒有人叫你張董？犯罪被害人權益保障法第三條，我們已經把性侵害當中，至少把刑法的第二百二十一條、兒少性剝削防制條例的第三十三條、第三十四條、第三十五條、第三十六條到第三十七條，部長你對這個法條熟不熟？還是要請黃次長答？這些兒少性剝削防制從第三十三條到第三十七條處理的是什麼行為？加害人的什麼行為？有沒有人知道？次長知道嗎？次長講一下。第三十三條就是他對兒少進行脅持、強命他拍攝，甚至在侵害過程加以錄影，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三十三條、第三十四條、第三十五條、第三十六條、第三十七條這五條都是直接，這個加害人因為要製作影像而直接對當事人進行加害，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長謀信：對，上次修法修的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是這些已經納入了犯保法，可是有些犯罪已經找不到誰做的影像，他可能偷拍，但是這些兒少性影像的散播和持有對被害人產生同樣的傷害，他沒有直接被這些行為人現場對身體的限制、強迫，可是後面這些影像的散播的傷害是同樣的，次長，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到犯罪被害人保護的量能問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：量能的問題？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯，涉及到國家預算的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國家預算的問題？"],["黃次長謀信：對，包括剛剛的詐欺犯罪跟相關的犯罪是不是要列入犯保法的保障範圍，這個當然可以研議，我們希望對犯罪保護越多越好，無論是保護也好，或者財政上的資助也好，但這涉及到整體國家的財政跟我們犯保人力量能的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黃次長說了三個部分，第一個是量能的問題，第二個是核心本質的問題，第三個是國家能力的問題，對不對？量能的問題，詐欺犯罪、經濟犯罪太多了，我們要努力的是減少犯罪，不是對被害人做補償，那是經濟的。可是身心的障礙難以平復的，我們都認為性侵有了，性影像的侵害對當事人是難以平復，本質上跟詐欺不同。第二個，你剛剛最後說到希望被害人統統都能夠保障，當然了，張董事長是這個理想，但是最後要考量的是我們政府的量能，但我要強調的是，你一直考量量能，但是你忽略了這些犯罪單單是散播和持有可能很容易犯這個罪，可是我們不能只考慮到它跟詐欺不一樣，詐欺是很普遍，第三十八條、第三十九條很普遍，可是造成傷害的本質是不同的。最後，部長看一下，目前性侵的被害人有生活重建、有訴訟協助、有保護命令、有補償金，但是性影像被害人只有保護命令，保護命令是什麼？避免傷害擴大，它有沒有生活重建、有沒有訴訟協助、有沒有補償金？董事長，看你宅心仁厚，你覺不覺得未來性影像的被害人可以把這三個部分都補上？"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，這個部分有待進一步的研議，基本上，如果能夠多加保護，我們也是贊成，只是剛剛黃次長有提到相關的配套措施，恐怕要更深入的研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼今天要請你上來？因為你白髮斑斑、慈眉善目，應該心腸比我們次長好，我們次長基於國家的財政考量，修法他比較猶豫，但是你宅心仁厚，犯罪被害人的保護你要努力推動。最後請鄭部長作結論，我們除了要求加強查緝性影像犯罪並下架犯罪影片之外，犯保法修法來強化包括性影像犯罪的被害人保障，部長，看你的態度囉！應該心腸也跟我們張董事長一樣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：第一項我們全力來做，第二項我們真的要研議，我們會用最快速度跟委員報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我也希望張董事長要持續推動，因為我們改革的力量總是有基於現實考量比較保守的，但是為了理想目標奮勇向前的，希望張董事長持續的奮勇向前，推動法務部把這件事情完成，董事長願意來承諾嗎？承諾會不會很嚴重？"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，我想這部分我會進一步研議，如果是可行的，當然我也樂觀其成。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不適合講研議，你說我們努力來推動，研議是交給部裡面，好不好？你努力來推動，可以嗎？"],["張檢察長斗輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝委員是什麼意思？是我可以下臺了嗎？是努力推動啦！部會裡面才是研議啦，可以嗎？"],["張檢察長斗輝：我們朝這個方向來規劃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長，謝謝張董事長和黃次長。"],["主席：接下來請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"158245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/377778736565467545a8d95a3ee83a07ed4c8b3bbbcd3c6b3ccd2cad39e601c0e4ab110b5714ccc85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:54:33 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":339.141,"text":"只是讓你們知道,不需要經過你們核准喔?那你們之前講的那些原則都寫好看嗎?所以你們可以拒絕國籌會的邀請,什麼叫做司法獨立?所長,什麼叫做司法獨立?國籌會的邀請你們可以拒絕,是不是?"},{"start":349.659,"end":375.234,"text":"因為我們也配合一組一組方面覺得他參加這種所謂的國慶大典對他的身心狀況是有正面的幫助署長我跟你講你每次講這個話你知道嗎我把它撿起來放在我的短片短影片上面你知道有多少的民眾覺得署長您今天發言這是不可思議啊"},{"start":376.277,"end":387.903,"text":"如果說你認為說陳水扁今天參加總統大典是有助於他的身心健康的恢復但為什麼不把所有的受刑人我們都邀請讓他去參加這個總統的就職大典我今天很感慨就是我們一直強調司法獨立法務部的所作所為民眾都看在眼裡"},{"start":399.005,"end":422.194,"text":"報告委員九關陳先生他的遺囑就是有兩家一般的受刑人是一家就足夠了所以原則上他兩家我建議啊就要找十家啦都來證明說他的健康這個仍然是需要在外面這個治療而且還要給他各種各樣不同的職能訓練所以你這邊講的你雙龍人的職能訓練還只能夠在監獄裡面辦啊"},{"start":427.324,"end":455.096,"text":"那也跟委員報告因為台中監獄在國慶當天也有另外派人到現場去做相關的瞭解。主長你現在講這些話就是我都不知道怎麼說對不對第一個你該不該核准他這違背了你們當時說是可以讓陳水扁保外就醫的原則你根本不應該核准就你還派個專員去陪他這是成何體統啊然後另外我還要再講的就是"},{"start":456.543,"end":459.346,"text":"陳水扁到現在已經停審多少年了?請問今天那個檢察長有來嗎?就是針對這個案子。"},{"start":471.748,"end":473.23,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":489.793,"end":495.236,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":514.465,"end":525.994,"text":"是只有兩次吧?還是一次?我最近看到只有一次北檢應該有好幾次喔北檢到底有多少次?今天北檢有沒有來?是"},{"start":534.307,"end":551.943,"text":"有關於陳水扁先生他在臺北地院庭審的這個部分我回去立刻查證以後來跟委員報告你要立刻查證我上次才請你們發紅給我我看只有一次啊你們從104年到現在將近10年了你們只有提出一次你們對得起國人嗎"},{"start":561.024,"end":578.344,"text":"收刑人不是都應該要同樣的主意嗎?停審司法院停審也是不應該那你們也應該要一直全要請求要恢復要恢復審判是恢復審理你們也沒有啊10年才一次"},{"start":580.185,"end":581.506,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":609.741,"end":627.91,"text":"法務部需要司法院我們還需要嗎?因為你們做的這些作為已經讓國人對司法失去信心就是權貴司法看看最近的南韓國會通過了總統彈劾案立刻就送到憲法法庭在過去朴槿惠總統"},{"start":639.804,"end":642.585,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":667.063,"end":676.266,"text":"從蔡英文到賴清德現在都不願意給這個陳水扁特赦但是回到你們法務部的問題回到司法院的問題我真的是拜託法務部矯正署還有我們的地檢署就是請你們要拿出這個骨氣好不好司法的脊樑在你們身上啊"},{"start":696.561,"end":708.166,"text":"不要讓國人看到這個今年矯正署周署長的回覆,看到高檢署竟然只有一次提出申請,這個實在是讓國民真的不能接受這樣子的一個做法。"},{"start":716.789,"end":743.268,"text":"我這個我之後會做一個決議啦或是其實今天我就要求你們以後每個月都要持續的提出這個請求法院要對陳水扁的案子進行審理一個每個月提出不不為過吧責任就不在你們的身上了接下來就看法院怎麼做請問部長還有這個高檢署的這個檢察長可以做到嗎"},{"start":746.036,"end":773.693,"text":"這個我們來努力。好,那鄒署長,那你呢?我會持續來就保衛醫治這個部分依規定來嚴格把關。依規定。我跟你說,不要逼我去修你們保衛醫治的條例喔。這樣子的話不要,這個因為陳水扁的案例,他已經是一個破口。我實在是覺得說你們矯正署不應該這樣子做。"},{"start":776.906,"end":778.107,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1224,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時54分）有請法務部部長，還有矯正署周署長。"],["主席：請部長跟署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長好，署長好。法務部非常清楚了解，本席很在意的事情就是針對保外就醫的事情，我現在想請周署長，能不能告訴我到底現在有多少受刑人是保外就醫？截至目前為止。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們保外就醫的人數每個月都會有所變動。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以最新的數字呢？"],["周署長輝煌：最新的數字是不是稍候一下……報告委員目前有四百多人。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，保外就醫的受刑人最長的是保外就醫多少年？"],["周署長輝煌：這邊到10月底止……"],["翁委員曉玲：矯正署長……"],["周署長輝煌：最長目前這邊是沒有資訊。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有資訊？超過9年以上的受刑人有多少人？"],["周署長輝煌：因為保外醫治它不是每一年統計，比如是三年前出去累計的，或是當年度出去的，有時候會有不同……"],["翁委員曉玲：太驚訝了！"],["周署長輝煌：最多應該是23年。"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：23年，我們現有……"],["翁委員曉玲：最長是23年，超過9年的呢？有多少受刑人？我很驚訝矯正署竟然沒有相關統計數字，而且這是很重要的訊息呀！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，上一次我們有提供一些數據給委員，但是因為它的統計有基準點的不確定性。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有關係，你就以上次提供給我的數據有多少人嘛！我的意思是說，這難道不是矯正署很重要的業務，結果你現在反而來問我，說我記不記得！請問今天其他監獄的典獄長有在嗎？是不是都可以來彙報一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們是不是用書面來做一個答復？"],["翁委員曉玲：我跟你講現在這樣的情況，你說我怎麼能夠不好好的去檢視矯正署的預算，連這個最基本的數字都答不出來，我本來其實不太想再提保外就醫這件事情，特別針對矯正署周署長，其實我對周署長很尊敬，我完全沒有要特別去挑剔矯正署。但是我今天看到矯正署的報告，我有感而發，你說要提升矯正機關的能見度，要妥適調整收容人的技能訓練職類，我看到這個部分，其實我的感想是矯正署不需要有太多的經費去做矯正機關的能見度，只要陳水扁他多參加幾次活動，你們矯正署就有名了啦！","可以告訴我一下保外就醫的情況──現在相關的法律規定，陳水扁的情況是符合保外就醫的規定嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，我們保外就醫是以審查基準配合他的醫囑由臺中監獄……"],["翁委員曉玲：好。"],["周署長輝煌：它每個月都會派人去……"],["翁委員曉玲：臺中監獄的典獄長有來嗎？有嗎？沒有，下次審查預算的時候，我希望他到。","你們都沒有懷疑那個醫囑有問題嗎？明眼人都知道，陳水扁他早就已經恢復了身體的健康，都還可以出席賴清德總統的就職大典，口才辨給、頭腦清楚、身體健康良好，今天換成是任何一個受刑人有這樣的處遇嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，有關這一次國慶大典，陳水扁先生也是在前一天才確定能夠出席，因為這是國慶籌備委員會邀請，然後他……"],["翁委員曉玲：他確定能夠出席是不是要經過你的核准？請問一下署長，要不要經過你的核准？"],["周署長輝煌：他要報我們臺中監獄，會讓我們知道。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是讓你們知道，不需要經過你們核准喔！你們之前講的那些原則都是寫好看的嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：他是因為國籌會的邀請，然後總統府也有再電話邀請他。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們可以拒絕國籌會的邀請，什麼叫做司法獨立？署長，什麼叫做司法獨立？國籌會的邀請你們可以拒絕，是不是？"],["周署長輝煌：因為我們也配合醫囑，醫囑方面覺得他參加這種所謂的國慶大典對他的身心狀況是有正面的幫助。"],["翁委員曉玲：署長，你每次講這個話，我把它剪起來放在我的短影片上面，你知道有多少的民眾覺得署長你今天發言真是不可思議啊！如果你認為陳水扁今天參加總統就職大典是有助於他的身心健康的恢復，為什麼不把所有的受刑人都邀請去參加總統的就職大典？我今天很感慨的是，我們一直強調司法獨立，法務部的所作所為民眾都看在眼裡。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，有關陳先生的醫囑有兩家，一般的受刑人是一家就足夠了，所以原則上……"],["翁委員曉玲：喔！他有兩家，我建議最好找10家，都來證明他的健康仍然需要在外面治療，而且還要給他各種各樣不同的職能訓練，所以你這邊講的收容人職能訓練還只能夠在監獄裡面辦啊！"],["周署長輝煌：因為臺中監獄在國慶當天也有另外派人到現場做相關的了解。"],["翁委員曉玲：署長，你今天講這些話讓我都不知道怎麼說，第一個，你該不該核准他？這違背了你們當時說可以讓陳水扁保外就醫的原則，你根本不應該核准，結果你還派一個專員去陪他，這成何體統啊！另外，陳水扁案到現在已經停審多少年了？請問今天檢察長有來嗎？就是針對這個案子的承辦地檢署。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有些案件在臺高院審理中，有些是臺北地院審理中，這部分有停止審理，我們檢察官都有促請……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問到目前為止促請了幾次？"],["鄭部長銘謙：像二次金改的，就是國泰併世華案這部分停審是在104年，北檢有好幾次發函、高檢另以補充理由書來促請高院繼續審判，次數我這邊是沒有數據。"],["翁委員曉玲：促請幾次不知道？法務部不曉得？幾次？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我另外再請他們提供；另外教唆偽證案……"],["翁委員曉玲：是只有2次吧！還是1次？我最近看到只有1次。"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢應該有好幾次。"],["翁委員曉玲：北檢到底有多少次？今天北檢有沒有來？"],["王檢察長俊力：有關於陳水扁先生在臺北地院停審的部分，我回去立刻查證後再來跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：你要立刻查證，我上次才請你們發文給我，我看只有1次啊！你們從104年到現在將近10年了，你們只有提出1次，你們對得起國人嗎？受刑人不是都應該受到同樣的處遇？司法院停審也是不應該，你們也應該要依職權，要請求、要恢復審判、審理，你們也沒有啊！10年才1次！陳水扁的狀況你們應該是每天都要提出聲請，而不是10年才1次，上次有個案子法律追訴期都已經經過了，坦白說，因為我作為法律人，我又是法學教授，其實我應該要維護司法院、法務部的相關預算，可是你們的所作所為真的讓我覺得我們需要法務部、需要司法院嗎？我們還需要嗎？因為你們這些作為已經讓國人對司法失去信心，現在就是權貴司法，看看最近的南韓，國會通過了總統彈劾案，立刻就送到憲法法庭；過去朴槿惠總統彈劾案通過之後被判刑入獄，人家也是乖乖坐牢啊！之後文在寅總統給她特赦，讓她提早17年出獄，法治國就要這樣做，但從蔡英文到賴清德，現在都不願意給陳水扁特赦，那就回到你們法務部的問題上、回到司法院的問題上，我真的是拜託法務部矯正署和地檢署，請你們要拿出骨氣，好不好？司法的脊梁在你們身上啊！不要讓國人看到今天矯正署周署長的回復，看到高檢署竟然只有1次提出聲請，這實在是讓國民真的不能接受這樣的作法。我之後會作一個決議，其實今天我就要求你們，以後每個月都要持續的提出，請求法院要對陳水扁的案子進行審理，每個月提出不為過吧！責任就不在你們身上了，接下來就看法院怎麼做。請問部長和高檢署的檢察長可以做到嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來努力。"],["翁委員曉玲：周署長，那你呢？"],["周署長輝煌：我們會持續就保外醫治這個部分依規定來嚴格把關。"],["翁委員曉玲：依規定？我跟你說，不要逼我去修你們保外醫治的條例，因為陳水扁的案例，他已經是個破口，我實在是覺得你們矯正署不應該這樣子做，因為陳水扁而害了其他真正需要保外就醫的受刑人，以上。希望你們每個月提出聲請，副本要給我，讓我知道，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：接下來是麥玉珍委員，麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","接下來有請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"158244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3777787365654675d8e9d6f3b1f90715ed4c8b3bbbcd3c6b6fcfc4b1692e31e25ed6d2392b5408465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:41:29 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494,"text":"這個部分確實會到對於民眾的生命造成那個人身的危害啊那這也是我們必須要趕快加速努力的地方我剛念光年新聞啊我跟你講就17件啊19天17件啊每1.7天出事一次啊"},{"start":425.546,"end":442.741,"text":"所以民眾在路上都要擔心遇到這些不定時炸彈這是真的當然我覺得要非常非常期待我們這個法務部檢調真的是該時間賽跑啦因為這個毒品的危害非常的強大"},{"start":443.322,"end":445.004,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":459.258,"end":474.599,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":474.739,"end":474.959,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":497.822,"end":520.114,"text":"有適用上市現貸或販賣的我們希望一定要去具體求証該羈押的就羈押另外我們所有的司法警察機關這一段時間有查緝的都有獎勵提高他的相關的一個獎勵對於還期數或者是義科罰金我們要求我們所有的檢查機關這部分一定要來嚴審另外網路的一個巡邏"},{"start":523.155,"end":526.316,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金 收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金 收支部分關於"},{"start":550.464,"end":553.245,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":573.15,"end":576.873,"text":"還有一點我跟部長提醒一下其實現在喪屍煙彈買得很容易這件事情也是問題之一甚至有些人說到小七買都還方便"},{"start":603.038,"end":606.962,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":621.114,"end":645.084,"text":"報告委員,的確,電子菸的一個管理是非常重要。目前我們也跟國建署還有相關的機關共同來去討論如何的強化聯合的一個茶器,那有效的從源頭來管理。我覺得尤其在電子菸這一塊,在它載具上面,它的進口販售跟使用雖然受到一定的規範,但實際執法情況其實相當受限。"},{"start":648.505,"end":672.318,"text":"這一點真的我希望說因為它的後面造成危害實在太嚴重了所以因此應該要在電子業的管制這一塊我希望法務部能夠拿出具體的辦法最後我還是要講一下就是說本期的小結論就是說事實上已經不只是我們講說一坨米子現在還有毒販改化學式合成所謂的液餅帕子對不對"},{"start":673.14,"end":689.839,"text":"所以它的變化速度又非常快擴散很快取得方便年齡往下降這在在對國家造成很大的危害所以我辦公室目前有針對電子煙器具還有三級毒品施用納入刑責這些來提案"},{"start":690.6,"end":705.666,"text":"那也參考法務部也編了不少業務跟基金在預算在反讀工作上希望法務部在法制工作上我們一起來努力支持好不好好,謝謝委員那個一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、"},{"start":711.969,"end":738.387,"text":"那有關於這個源頭管理這部分包括邊境這部分我們請公務署來做加強的一個查緝那另外還有網路巡邏的問題因為這是剛才我也有提到這個是屬於那個年齡比較低的所以他可是不是有上網去購買有些利用這些網路去買那這邊我們是有些速發部這部分也會再做一個處理當然這不會全是法務部所以在這邊齁因為法務部是最前線啦"},{"start":739.227,"end":767.682,"text":"所以不管是說這個衛福部也好或是速發部也好總而言之情況是非常嚴重跟危急拜託真的政府聯合起來加把勁另外跟委員報告我們會怕那有些年輕的人從網路上看到這些的流動的資訊我們這部分也有協調替TWNIC能夠來去把它去相關的一個那屏蔽這部分我們一定會全力以赴拜託加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1184,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時41分）主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。下週開始，接續就是聖誕節跟跨年假期了，你知道這段期間什麼樣的犯罪態樣通常都會大幅提高？"],["鄭部長銘謙：毒品。"],["羅委員智強：答對了，毒品，就是毒品濫用的問題，這幾天就可以在新聞上看到，耶誕跨年即將到來，警方鎖定販毒集團大量趕製喪屍毒煙彈，準備趁假期撈一波，在臺北、臺南多地，警方都破獲製毒工廠，這個部長知道嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們資訊都一直在更新。"],["羅委員智強：是。之前我其實也有跟業務單位討論過目前臺灣毒品流通的狀況，所以問題大家也都知道相當嚴重。那我想請教部長，衛福部食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統的非尿液檢體，今年1到10月總共檢出了2,905件，比起去年的22件，數量暴增132倍，部長認為原因是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是加強查緝的結果，那也可以反映新興毒品濫用可能有上升的一個趨勢。"],["羅委員智強：對，雙重原因嘛。一個可能有加強查驗嘛，對不對？另外一個實際上也是在上升嘛，對不對？所以這兩個因素都同時存在。事實上我們也可以看到，尤其是針對喪屍毒煙彈，目前我們在法制上跟查緝作為上，部長可不可以稍微說明一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：喪屍煙彈這個新興毒品，是我們校園青春專案跟安居緝毒和查緝的一個重點，那我們檢察機關指揮調查局跟司法警察機關，最近喪屍煙彈的查獲也非常豐碩，就這部分對社會做一個報告。這部分持續查緝的事情，我請臺高檢署跟調查局長來做個補充。"],["羅委員智強：好。有請局長。"],["陳局長白立：是。報告委員，這個部分比較新興的就是依托咪酯的問題，因為早期我們國內依托咪酯的狀況不是那麼多，這幾年我們發現有嚴重上升的趨勢，所以也很快速地把依托咪酯從四級升到三級，然後又從三級升到二級，我們現在在強力地去做這方面的查緝。因為它是一個新興的毒品，調查局的鑑識科學處有研發一些新型的試劑，可以讓第一線執行的同仁在第一線的現場就能夠用那個試劑去檢驗出是哪一類毒品，是海洛因或甲基安非他命。但是依托咪酯是新興的毒品，我們現在正在加速研發，希望能夠趕快把快篩試劑研發出來，提供給第一線執行的同仁更方便的工具。"],["羅委員智強：好，我跟局長說，依托咪酯從四級升三級、升二級，你覺得嚇阻力有出來嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們希望能夠達到這樣子的嚇阻效果，但是現在才剛剛升到二級，不是那麼明顯，目前還看不出來。"],["羅委員智強：我現在唸幾個新聞給你看，就來看看這個問題有多嚴重，事實上我覺得局長也好，部長也好，你們都在跟時間賽跑，因為依托咪酯喪屍煙彈的危害，真的已經是全面性。12月2日改列二級毒品仍不怕，男子30日吸喪屍煙彈駕車，車體搖晃，被逮；12月3日有人吸喪屍煙彈昏睡路邊，機警查獲火速逮捕移送；12月3日又是吸喪屍煙彈，三重男開車斷片撞燈桿，腳還猛踩油門；12月5日，北市男駕車衝撞超商騎樓，警方查獲喪屍煙彈送辦；12月6日，單車騎士在北市路口飄移，車籃藏喪屍煙彈；12月8日，龜山警逮二案在身的通緝犯，他自撞安全島掉出喪屍煙彈；12月10日，19歲車手吸喪屍煙彈後「起乩」，超商收贓款80萬落網；12月13日，林口逮四詐嫌，起出二級毒品喪屍煙彈；12月14日盤查改裝車，毒鴛鴦吸喪屍煙彈遭逮；12月14日，臺東男身上藏喪屍煙彈被逮；12月15號復康巴士駕駛疑似吸食喪屍煙彈自撞兩車，恍惚到連鑰匙都找不到；12月17號男駕車蛇行險撞警車，搜出喪屍煙彈；12月18號男毒駕連撞四車，造成二女受傷起獲喪屍煙彈；12月18號高雄男毒駕昏睡路邊，拒檢撞爛車輛三警受傷，又是喪屍煙彈！光12月到現在19天，不但是各地搜索抓藥頭工廠的新聞，還有一個更嚴重，其實已經是危害到一般民眾了。"],["陳局長白立：是、是。"],["羅委員智強：現在這種所謂喪屍煙彈毒品的狀況，已經跟別的毒品有一個很大的差別，它已經危害到一般民眾，林林總總全都是毒駕。"],["陳局長白立：是、是。"],["羅委員智強：說真的，我們民眾走在路邊不管再怎麼遵守交通規則，遇到吸食喪屍煙彈的毒駕犯，請問局長跟部長，民眾怎麼防止？有辦法防得了嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個部分確實會對民眾的生命造成人身的危害，這也是我們必須要趕快加速努力的地方。"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛光念新聞就17件，19天17件，每1.7天出事一次，所以民眾在路上都要擔心遇到這些不定時炸彈，這是真的。當然，我覺得非常非常期待我們法務部、檢調，真的是該跟時間賽跑了，因為毒品的危害非常的強大。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們因為臺高檢署也有督導……"],["羅委員智強：部長請說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個喪屍煙彈是從四級、三級到二級，這個是我們也禁了很多類，所以這一年當中把它完成，至於詳細的規劃，我是不是可以請臺高檢署張檢察長來說明。"],["羅委員智強：好，沒問題，請臺高檢署。"],["張檢察長斗輝：謝謝委員的垂詢，的確喪屍煙彈是非常的嚴重，臺高檢署在今年的三月份的緝毒督導會報，發現有這樣的一個情形，我們連續開了12次的會議，我們也展開一系列的查緝行動，包括對於喪屍煙彈，我們有安居專案，其實目前還有再強化去查緝依托咪酯。另外我們也提列管從四級、三級到二級，另外對於適用喪屍煙彈或販賣的，我們希望一定要去具體求刑，該羈押的就羈押。所有的司法警察機關，這段時間所查緝的都有的獎勵，提高相關的一個獎勵，對於緩起訴或者是易科罰金，我們要求所有的檢察機關，這部分一定要嚴審。接著網路的巡邏跟適度的發布新聞，並且我們也鬆綁檢驗的項目，因為依托咪酯的檢驗，民間的檢驗的量能不足，所以這部分我們協助食藥署也請法醫所、調查局、刑事警察局，一起共同來建立民間的檢驗的量能。目前我們的檢驗量能看起來是慢慢的提升，我們希望比照當年在111年查緝PMMA的一個方式，能夠在最短的時間有效的把它壓制下來。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝。我的建議、我的關心，真的就是快、快、快、擴大再擴大，因為我相信部長你也覺得很恐怖吧，因為走在路上的行人是連防都不能防的，沒錯吧！"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的……"],["羅委員智強：之前有一個毒駕吸了喪屍煙彈就昏了，然後就油門一踩、往旁邊一撞，你根本再怎麼遵守交通規則都沒有用，對不對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員關心，我們是對內要壓制掃蕩先把它壓制。"],["羅委員智強：還有一點我跟部長提醒一下，現在喪屍煙彈很容易買，這件事情也是問題之一，甚至有些人說比到小七買都還方便，變成是有七成都集中在18到29歲族群，比傳統毒品的使用者還年輕，所以它有年齡往下降的趨勢，這是另外一個嚴重的警訊。還有一點，它的氾濫跟電子煙吸食器的流通管理也有很大的關聯吧，對不對？"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，的確電子煙的管理是非常重要，目前我們也跟國健署還有相關的機關，共同討論如何強化聯合的查緝，有效的從源頭來管理。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得尤其在電子煙這一塊，等於它載具上面的進口販售跟使用，雖然受到一定的規範，但實際執法情況其實相當受限，因為它後面造成的危害實在太嚴重了，這一點我希望法務部應該要在電子煙的管制這一塊，能夠拿出具體的辦法。最後我還是要講一下本席的一點小結論，實際上已經不只是依托咪酯，現在還有毒販改化學式合成所謂的「異丙帕酯」，對不對？所以它的變化速度又非常快、擴散很快、取得方便、年齡往下降，這在在對國家造成很大的危害。所以我辦公室目前有針對電子煙器具還有三級毒品私用納入刑責這些來提案，也參考法務部也編了不少預算跟基金在反毒工作上，希望法務部在法制工作上，我們一起來努力支持好不好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，異丙帕酯已經列為二級了，另外電子煙載具這部分，我們在反毒會報有提出來討論，這是由國健署做主政。有關於源頭管理，包括邊境這部分，我們請關務署來做加強的一個查緝。另外還有網路巡邏的問題，因為剛才委員也有提到這個是屬於年齡比較低的，所以他是不是有上網去購買，有些利用網路去買，我們有協調數發部，這部分也會再做處理。"],["羅委員智強：當然這不會全是法務部，因為法務部是最前線，所以不管是衛福部也好，或者是數發部也好，總而言之，情況是非常嚴重跟危急，真的拜託政府聯合起來加把勁。"],["張檢察長斗輝：另外跟委員報告，我們會怕有些年輕人從網路上看到這些流通的資訊，我們也有協調TWNIC能夠做相關的屏蔽，這部分我們一定會全力以赴。"],["羅委員智強：好，拜託加油，謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"158243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3777787365654675366387216513ab76ed4c8b3bbbcd3c6b6fcfc4b1692e31e2d074087a6b2f41335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:28:21 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3,"end":200.066,"text":"人力的部分也是我們對於司法資源不是預算就是人力嘛我們的人員也未達歐美進步國家司法人員的中位數的二分之一所以我們要搶救所有珍貴的司法預算法務部的預算就是要讓國家的司法能夠順利犯罪能夠偵辦然後所有的偵辦之後從檢察官到法院大家都不要過勞"},{"start":202.768,"end":212.332,"text":"所以我替您整理出來連續三年過去在民進黨作為國會多數的時候我們至少捍衛了司法預算的獨立"},{"start":214.433,"end":235.119,"text":"憲法增修條文第5條預算法第93條針對司法預算的獨立編列都給了非常大的母法的授權當然他多數的司法預算我的認知除了司法院當然一部分會落在我們法務部門所以說以過去平均3年的凍結數只凍結了487萬佔0.012%"},{"start":241.861,"end":252.749,"text":"那統刪因為有院會的統刪否則委員會的刪減是更少的即便經過院會的統刪Total法務部的預算也只被刪了3億2513萬平均是0.8%"},{"start":259.781,"end":283.712,"text":"所以我說我們要捍衛法務部的預算部長您一定要硬起來這是過去我為您整理出來的如果今年度有過當的被刪減被大砍我們要拿出強而有力的數據捍衛司法乃至於法務部執法人員的預算您同意嗎同意全力來搶救下一頁"},{"start":285.915,"end":307.541,"text":"總預算其實沒有辦法通過過去在委員會還沒排委員會之前在院會就被擋了6次中央政府總預算因此新興計劃沒辦法執行高達2050億下一頁在法務部門如果總預算沒有辦法在12天後完成審查法務部"},{"start":309.021,"end":326.398,"text":"從我們建立新世代網路犯罪追查平台的打詐升級的軟硬體再到我們要減輕所有的基層的檢查人員的人力負荷乃至於矯正機關要落實人權的保障來提升矯正機關的軟硬體加起來我們的新興計劃11.26億是沒頂沒當"},{"start":333.544,"end":340.124,"text":"所以我要呼籲大家遊說預算,爭取預算不是只有部長一個人的事。"},{"start":341.212,"end":369.495,"text":"大家要捍衛我們的工作權跟我們依憲法所賦予的職權大家都要動起來這是我對大家的期待大家服務的分區也取在不同的縣市但是我們都有同樣的網絡可以去向我們所認識的親近的我們深信是為人民的利益發聲的立法委員大家都要一起來捍衛我們珍貴的預算下一頁"},{"start":370.566,"end":372.187,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":393.345,"end":405.505,"text":"在打擊犯罪的部分警政署中央治安的相關預算減少或是受影響會受波及的有360億我們來看看法務部"},{"start":406.943,"end":431.478,"text":"如果財化法被大砍了,法務部的可用財源會有136.6億可能受到波及會遭殃。包括大家都要防毒,我們要查緝毒品向毒品宣戰。6.6億的補助毒品防治特別收入的基金就可能受到衝擊。"},{"start":433.171,"end":456.979,"text":"我們都關心所有的基層檢調人員的檢壓高達21.1億的各級高檢、地檢署、辦理刑事案件、偵查及執行業務的經費21.1億會受到影響矯正機關我最關心矯正機關的軟硬體的提升來提升我們寓所或看守所的人權"},{"start":459.336,"end":482.035,"text":"依據國際的人權公約但是矯正機關受到裁劃法的影響波及也非常的大對於收容人改善監鎖的計劃也都因此可能停擺當然調查局你們要精進所有的打詐犯罪的偵訪提供更精良的武器的預算也都受到影響"},{"start":482.876,"end":502.433,"text":"我整理出來打架司法通過之後但因為才化法的災難打架預算受影響會有28.8億。下一頁所以部長就教於您我們如果21.1億我要請大家動起來的理由在這裡"},{"start":503.905,"end":511.446,"text":"基層檢察官的過勞我們依據的這一筆21.1億的補助偵查執行刑事案件的經費如果沒有了我們說的基層檢調人員的檢押根本就是如同空談部長你有什麼妙方怎麼來解決這個問題"},{"start":532.13,"end":550.531,"text":"在目前我們在打炸綱領現在是要進入下一個的一個一個階段齁那那個整個一個反毒的一個行動綱領要到到第三期了齁那我們需要這個就要一些資源的一個移住包括人員跟"},{"start":551.712,"end":553.893,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":574.224,"end":574.885,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":590.816,"end":615.589,"text":"就是整個一個一個主要是在擴編的都是在一個除了人員的因為那個薪資的調整那個以外最主要的還是在那個打詐跟緝毒還有科技偵查這邊的一個今天時間有限我要趕快來結尾報告部長報告今天坐在這裡所有我尊敬的我們一起投入國家的檢警調"},{"start":617.939,"end":631.698,"text":"優秀的司法從業人員大家要動起來我們要發聲我們要讓台灣的司法的獨立跟我們的辦案的品質擁有最精良的武器我們需要預算"},{"start":633.12,"end":656.161,"text":"大家一定都要把這個聲音傳達出去當然我們也會透過審查跟協商的過程捍衛大家的預算下一頁部長兩個作業您帶回去矯正機關的簽件改建的計畫呢我們從101年到現在推了五所臺北監獄、宜蘭監獄、雲林第二監獄、巴德外益監跟彰化看守所"},{"start":657.302,"end":685.255,"text":"江華看守所5.1億114年度新編的執行完了以後我沒有看到有其他的新的擴遷或是改建的計畫我沒有看到但我沒有時間來論述我整理了非常多的數字我們需要去擴建監獄跟看守所尤其看守所的人權的狀況是比監獄更為嚴峻的我需要看到你們新的計畫在下一頁"},{"start":686.515,"end":708.274,"text":"過去推動一人一床的政策,但是也沒有反映在新的預算的編列上。所以我在這裡預告,我希望來年你們編列對於矯正機關的擴簽件的各項預算,我們一定全力來捍衛。我再次強調,監所本身,好,我們再看下一頁,對不起,佔一點點時間。"},{"start":710.015,"end":715.765,"text":"矯正機關53%超收女收容人的人權待遇最差我沒有時間講內容下一頁"},{"start":718.305,"end":745.543,"text":"一人一床實施多年還有五成沒有達標而當中看守所的進度是最差的。在下一頁法定收容人的居住空間過小我們已經嚴重落後了國際人權的要求現在法務部的這個執行基準是針對收容人的居住空間的法定0.7平2.3平方米遠低於歐盟理事會國際紅十字會的標準"},{"start":749.206,"end":771.041,"text":"你們回去想一想你們現在的基準要調整而且現在的基準只針對監獄對於看守所完全沒有基準基於無罪推定的原則看守所裡頭收容的人權我們更要重視不好意思再用多一點時間因為預算非常的珍貴我提點的問題我們後續在審議預算的時候我們再來交換意見好嗎"},{"start":773.484,"end":775.348,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1160,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長早，大家都辛苦了。我今天要來搶救司法預算，也是搶救我們法務部的預算，因為打擊犯罪不能夠有任何的空窗，所以大家要總動員，來搶救國家的司法預算。當然法務部的預算是屬於司法預算當中很大的一宗，目前你們面對的三大預算危機，真的是非常險峻，第一個，在野黨揚言他們會大砍法務部的預算，可能是基於對於個案的不滿，可能是基於政黨的對立，進行政治的報復，我非常不樂見，審預算要理性、要專業。第二個危機是總預算的審查已經延宕很久了，依我們的法定職權，要在這個月底12天後完成審查，現在在野黨排了非常多政治的議案，剩下12天的時間，我們居然是今天進行法務部預算的詢答，我真是比誰都急。第三，藍白的委員聯手惡修了財政收支劃分法之後，嚴重的掏空了中央的財源，所以部長，這每一項都會戕害我們的法務部，不管是各級的檢察機關，不管是矯正機關或調查局，我們進行所有犯罪的查辦防範，都會受到嚴重的影響。","這個大家最近都不陌生，新聞上一再看到委員們喊話、揚言、撂狠話要大砍法務部的預算，我前幾天在行使大法官人事同意權的時候，聽到未來的被提名人，可望成為亞洲第一位女性司法院院長的張文貞說，臺灣編的廣義司法預算，只有國家政府總預算的1%，人均司法預算，每一個國人享有的司法預算，大概只有1,164元，遠低於歐洲，連歐盟進步國家中位數的一半都不到。人力的部分也是如此，司法資源不是預算就是人力，我們的人員也未達歐美進步國家司法人員中位數的二分之一，所以我們要搶救所有珍貴的司法預算、法務部的預算，就是要讓國家的司法能夠順利，犯罪能夠偵辦，然後所有的偵辦從檢察官到法院，大家都不要過勞。所以我替您整理出來，連續三年，過去在民進黨做為國會多數的時候，我們至少捍衛了司法預算的獨立，憲法增修條文第五條、預算法第九十三條，針對司法預算的獨立編列，都給了非常大的母法的授權。當然，多數的司法預算，我的認知除了司法院外一部分會落在法務部門，所以如果以過去平均三年的凍結數只凍結了4,870萬，占0.012%，因為有院會的統刪，否則委員會的刪減是更少的，即便經過院會的統刪，法務部的預算也只被刪了3億2,513萬元，平均是0.8%。所以我說我們要捍衛法務部的預算，部長您一定要硬起來，這是過去我為您整理出來的，如果今年度有過當的被刪減、被大砍，我們要拿出強而有力的數據，捍衛司法，乃至於法務部執法人員的預算，您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：全力來搶救。","總預算其實沒有辦法通過，過去在還沒排委員會之前，在院會就被擋了六次，因此中央政府的總預算中新興計畫沒辦法執行的部分高達2,050億。在法務部門，如果總預算沒有辦法在12天後完成審查，法務部從我們建立新世代網路犯罪追查平臺的打詐升級的軟硬體，再到我們要減輕所有基層檢察人員的人力負荷，乃至於矯正機關要落實人權的保障，來提升矯正機關的軟硬體，加起來，我們的新興計畫有11.26億是動彈不得。所以我也要呼籲大家，遊說預算、爭取預算，不是只有部長一個人的事，大家要捍衛我們的工作權跟我們依憲法所賦予的職權，大家都要動起來，這是我對大家的期待。大家服務的分區也許在不同的縣市，但是我們都有同樣的網絡，可以去向我們所認識的、親近的、我們深信是為人民的利益發聲的立法委員表示，大家都要一起來捍衛我們珍貴的預算。","說到財劃法，太可怕，國民黨的委員已經揚言，在週五，也就是明天，要一次搞定三個惡法，從選罷法、憲法訴訟法到財劃法。如果財劃法大砍了六千多億，被挖走了，在打擊犯罪的部分，警政署中央治安的相關預算減少或是受影響，會受波及的有360億，我們來看看法務部，如果財劃法被大砍了，法務部的可用財源會有136.6億可能受到波及、會遭殃，包括大家都要防毒，我們要查緝毒品，向毒品宣戰，6.6億的補助毒品防治特別收入的基金，就可能受到衝擊。我們都關心所有的基層檢調人員的減壓，高達21.1億的各級高檢、地檢署辦理刑事案件偵查及執行業務的經費21.1億會受到影響。再說到矯正機關，我最關心矯正機關軟硬體的提升，提升獄所或看守所的人權，依據國際的人權公約，但是矯正機關受到財劃法的影響波及也非常的大，對於收容人改善監所的計畫，也都因此可能停擺，當然調查局你們要精進所有的打詐犯罪的偵防，提供更精良的武器的預算，也都受到影響。我整理出來，打詐四法通過之後，但因為財劃法的災難，打詐預算受影響會有28.8億。部長，我就教於您，我要請大家動起來，理由是基層檢察官的過勞，這一筆21.1億的補助，偵查執行刑事案件的經費如果沒有了，我們說基層檢調人員的減壓根本就是如同空談。部長，你有什麼妙方？怎麼來解決這個問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在目前，打詐綱領現在是要進入下一個階段，反毒的行動綱領要到第三期了，這個部分我們就需要一些資源的挹注，包括人員跟經費，以打詐來講，我們檢察官基層痛不欲生，被詐欺案件淹沒了。"],["吳委員思瑤：壓得透不過氣來。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們有檢察官助理，這一部分就需要有經費的挹注，也就是打詐的錢。"],["吳委員思瑤：對啊，每個跨黨派委員都在提啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分也要三千多萬，現在也才250人，明年也再做一個擴充。我希望大院能夠多支持我們法務部的預算。"],["吳委員思瑤：我一定支持啊，我為你們捍衛，因為我要搶救預算。"],["鄭部長銘謙：法務部的預算擴編的部分，除了因人員薪資調整而增加的部分以外，最主要的還是在打詐、緝毒和科技偵查的增加。"],["吳委員思瑤：今天時間有限，我要趕快來結尾。報告部長，報告今天坐在這裡的所有我尊敬的、一起投入國家的檢警調及優秀的司法從業人員，大家要動起來，我們要發聲，我們要讓臺灣的司法獨立跟辦案品質擁有最精良的武器，我們需要預算，大家一定都要把這個聲音傳達出去，當然我們也會透過審查跟協商的過程，捍衛大家的預算。","部長，兩個作業您帶回去，矯正機關的遷建、改建的計畫，從101年到現在推了五所，包含臺北監獄、宜蘭監獄、雲林第二監獄、八德外役監跟彰化看守所。彰化看守所的5.1億是114年度新編的，執行完了以後，我沒有看到有其他新的擴遷或是改建的計畫，我沒有看到，我整理了非常多的數字，但我沒有時間來論述，我們需要去擴建監獄跟看守所，尤其看守所人權的狀況是比監獄更為嚴峻的，我需要看到你們新的計畫。過去推動一人一床的政策，但是也沒有反映在新的預算編列上，所以我在這裡預告，我希望來年你們編列對於矯正機關擴遷建的各項預算，我們一定全力來捍衛。我再次強調，矯正機關53%超收，女收容人的人權待遇最差，我沒有時間講內容；一人一床實施多年，還有五成沒有達標，而當中看守所的進度是最差的；法定收容人的居住空間過小，對於國際人權的要求，我們已經嚴重落後了。現在法務部的執行基準，收容人的法定居住空間是0.7坪，就是2.3平方米，遠低於歐盟理事會及國際紅十字會的標準，你們回去想一想，你們現在的基準要調整，而且現在的基準只針對監獄，對於看守所完全沒有基準。基於無罪推定的原則，看守所裡頭收容的人權，我們更要重視。不好意思，占用多一點時間，因為預算非常的珍貴，我提點的問題，我們後續在審議預算的時候，我們再來交換意見，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家一起加油，搶救司法預算，搶救法務部的預算。謝謝主席多給我時間，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。","接下來請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"158242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/377778736565467536b13da4f985d6e3ed4c8b3bbbcd3c6b6fcfc4b1692e31e275fbb8e6d82346ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:14:06 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3.37,"text":"第二個是新型網路犯罪智能延期追緝計劃第三個是智慧司法與科技信任環境建構方案計劃這三個應該是新增的計劃對不對?是那這個精進科技偵查計劃我們編列了878萬那這個新型網路犯罪智能延期追緝計劃我們編列了2210萬是"},{"start":297.648,"end":300.952,"text":"智慧司法與科技信任環境建構方案我們編了13979000三項計畫加起來總共這個4486萬那我這個"},{"start":314.995,"end":340.249,"text":"這個這個在我這樣看就是調查局似乎有在在因為這一次的這個科技偵查的法制化之後有在相關的科技偵查的部分有確實有增列的新增的工作跟計畫但是我要了解這些計畫裡面卻有一些有一些實質的內容就比較不了解關於剛所提到第一個精進科技偵查的計畫我看你們其實是一個三年的計畫是不是一個三年的計畫他不是今年單獨的"},{"start":342.388,"end":344.59,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":354.414,"end":369.82,"text":"大概有兩個我比較注意到的第一個就是委辦費啦就是你們委辦希望能夠委託這個大學或學術研究機構就針對人工智慧新興科技建構筆跡輔助鑑識系統的研究費用"},{"start":372.441,"end":373.802,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":395.798,"end":405.744,"text":"兩百一十六萬八千元來做這個臉部表情辨識軟體的設備在設備及投資的部分對不對這個是對這個是人工智慧的這個鑑識的這個部分"},{"start":413.742,"end":431.812,"text":"相關的見識我關心的是相關的見識包括對於數位簽帳筆記鑑定是不是納入規劃那你們這個見識能力最重要是這樣子未來的見識能力跟他的正確性跟客觀性這才是數位辨識裡面最重要的關鍵你們所期待的成效是什麼樣"},{"start":440.137,"end":467.564,"text":"我們希望就是說能夠在這個鑑識的過程裡面它的有效性還有它的那個效率能夠提高那目前是比較是傾向是用人工的其實面對目前這種新興的這種詐欺的犯罪其實是非常的不足所以我們希望能夠導入這個科技的這個能夠協助對我說具體的像剛剛這些數位簽章或是臉部辨識它對於打詐本身工作在哪一些部分會有所強化"},{"start":469.325,"end":486.076,"text":"稍後那個詐騙的這些簽名啊筆跡啊我們就可以利用這樣子的工具來協助我們來辨識他的真偽他的正確性他的正確性跟客觀性目前有得到肯定還是說你們還是必須要再服以人工複查"},{"start":487.025,"end":508.694,"text":"公務員報告,目前我們在做簽字簽名的鑑定上面,大部分都是用手寫的簽名鑑定,這部分的鑑定率我們的正確率是很高。那是現在現行嗎?那我們新增這個計畫就是為了數位簽名嗎?是,因為我們目前對數位簽名,因為數位簽名跟手寫的簽名它的"},{"start":510.094,"end":515.397,"text":"運筆跟他的比例還有他的作業方式都不一樣。是的,所以這個部分我們就必須要導入一些新的科技方法來輔助我們傳統的方式"},{"start":524.702,"end":543.235,"text":"這部分因為是新增計畫,所以我們還沒有看到計畫的細目,希望在審查預算的時候我們能夠針對這些部分我們來做進一步的了解。當然你另外還有這個新型網路犯罪系統延期計畫,因為時間的關係我沒有辦法跟你一個一個細談,但是我比較,我這裡比較"},{"start":544.984,"end":554.176,"text":"要想要了解的是我剛所談的這個計畫裡面的第三個新增計畫智慧司法與科技信任環境建構方案你們總共花了1397萬這是新增的計畫那你們在這個這個"},{"start":561.943,"end":574.328,"text":"整個計畫內容裡面提到設備投資的部分提到說構置司法聯盟鏈共同驗證平台這個我很好奇因為我沒有聽過司法聯盟鏈這個名詞我是第一次聽到什麼叫司法聯盟鏈"},{"start":580.831,"end":606.429,"text":"共同驗證平台我了解,那什麼叫司法聯盟鏈?你們大概希望提供建設這個平台之後希望提供哪一些這是一個開放的系統嗎?這是一個提供給什麼樣的人使用的一個平台?是,報告委員這個司法聯盟鏈目前是由五個單位組成的一個是司法院、法務部、高檢署、調查局、警政署司法院、法務部對不對?高檢署、調查局、警政署"},{"start":610.112,"end":614.618,"text":"最後一個是什麼?警政署這五個單位組成這個我們會建置這個司法聯盟鏈主要就是為了要確認數位證據的驗證的統一性"},{"start":625.407,"end":643.177,"text":"就是數位證據,數位證據它包括保全啦,數位證據的保全也是有一個問題啦,因為它這個東西是這個,我看我們這個最高法院的判決,對於數位證據,它有確定使用數位證據這個用語。它提到說,它這個數位證據它有無限的可複製性,再來它複製之後無差異性,這複製之後你不知道這東西是複製的還是原件。"},{"start":653.841,"end":664.876,"text":"爭刪內容具無痕跡性製作人具不易確定性內容非屬人類感官可以直接理解像這樣子的這些數位證據的保全證據的保全以及驗證最重要是驗證"},{"start":668.14,"end":670.321,"text":"是的,這個一開始的五個會員會先把我們的數位證據上到這個司法聯盟鏈由他的這個"},{"start":694.753,"end":723.635,"text":"查湊值來確認說他的數位證據並沒有受到污染那未來會希望能夠有更多的司法調查單位甚至律師公會也能夠加入這個司法聯盟的運作大家在法院在檢查這個體系或是司法體系或是檢查體系大家對於數位證據的驗證能夠一致化保持他的一致性然後不會受到污染除了你講的這個司法聯盟鏈之外"},{"start":724.773,"end":730.304,"text":"一般民眾、全民可以共同來利用這樣子建制的平台嗎?"},{"start":732.23,"end":759.473,"text":"目前是沒有但是未來的發展它會有一個查詢平台在你們的預期關鍵成果裡面你們有提到整合規劃存驗證共同平台提供全民容易接近使用區塊鏈的服務它驗證分兩種一種是司法就是這個鏈上面的司法警察單位或是我們去做驗證但另外一個是民眾假設你被搜索了"},{"start":759.973,"end":759.993,"text":"陳局長"},{"start":775.254,"end":800.375,"text":"我們現在這三個新增的計畫這個部分我想本席是為予支持的因為畢竟我們這個科技偵查是這個法制化之後這個納入確實是應該要投入更多的資源將這個科技偵查相關所需要的需求跟我們過去不足的地方因為法制化之後我們可以編列正式的預算我們可以進行精進但這些相關新增的計畫正因為這些計畫是新增的"},{"start":803.217,"end":828.575,"text":"所以我希望這些計畫的執行,這個部分這個局長你負有督導之責,相關最重要是每一個計畫它的預期成果,包括階段性的,三年計畫它今年的階段性目標是什麼?第二年階段性目標是什麼?我在你們的計畫裡面其實沒有看到你們所提的這些具體的階段性目標,具體的目標或階段性的成果。這部分我希望全局長能夠加強督促好不好?是,是,是,謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1096,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時14分）主席，先麻煩鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：部長早。今天我們對法務部及所屬主管機關單位預算進行詢答，所以本席所針對的是相關預算裡面本席所關切的一些部分。首先，因為我們今年7月通過打詐四法，其中重要的是，在刑事訴訟法的特殊強制處分專章裡面，我們通過了科技偵查法制化相關立法，因此我就會特別關心科技偵查法制化之後，法務部相關單位所屬機關的相關預算是不是有所變動，是不是有因應法制化之後在相關科技偵查作業，做預算的調整及強化。我大概簡單先看今年法務部的單位預算，以及所屬的部分，包括調查局、廉政署、矯正署等等的相關預算，今年法務部的預算大概增加了4,651萬6,000元，這是法務部部本部的單位預算；調查局的單位預算增加最多，增加了4億989萬4,000元；廉政署的部分減少了2,493萬3,000元。矯正署的部分，我就不納入計算，因為矯正署跟科技偵查比較沒有關係，但是它有科技的相關預算，等一下也許有時間的話，也會跟署長來討論。剛剛我講的法務部、調查局、廉政署，光這三個單位，預算總計增加4億3,147萬7,000元，本席要關心的是科技偵查法制化之後，法務部主管的有哪一些預算是因為科技偵查所增加編列的？增編在哪裡？重點是這些新增預算的預期成果、預期成效，以及對於打擊犯罪，尤其是放在打詐四法裡面，關於詐騙案件的偵查及相關工作是不是有所幫助，這是本席今天質詢的重點。部長，我剛剛所講的這些數字都是正確的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好。所以我接下來針對相關的計畫質詢，如果講到所屬單位，請所屬單位的長官上來，部長，你就在旁邊一同瞭解。首先，我剛才提到預算增加最多的是調查局，調查局今年度的預算增加了4億989萬4,000元，請陳局長就相關問題來回答。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：局長好，增加四億多預算，我注意到有幾個新增編列的計畫，而且新增編列計畫大概也都跟科技偵查有所相關，我找出來三個過去沒有今年新增列的計畫，第一個是精進科技偵查計畫；第二個是新型網路犯罪智能研析追緝計畫；第三個是智慧司法與科技信任環境建構方案計畫，這三個應該是新增的計畫，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：精進科技偵查計畫編列了878萬1,000元；新型網路犯罪智能研析追緝計畫編列了2,210萬元，智慧司法與科技信任的環境建構方案編了1,397萬9,000元，三項計畫加起來，總共是4,486萬元。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：對吧？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我這樣看，調查局似乎有在這一次科技偵查法制化之後，在相關的科技偵查的部分，確實有增列了新增的工作跟計畫，但是這些計畫裡面有一些實質的內容，我就比較不瞭解。關於剛剛所提到的第一個精進科技偵查的計畫，我看其實是一個三年的計畫，不是今年單獨的，是一個三年的計畫，今年是第一年，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是不是？局長。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：在今年的計畫裡面，我看到你們預算書裡面提到，有兩個我注意到的，第一個就是委辦費，就是你們希望委託大學或學術研究機構，針對人工智慧新興科技建構筆跡輔助建置系統的研究費用。"],["陳局長白立：是。這個部分，我們希望導入一些AI的技術，來協助……"],["沈委員發惠：我看起來筆跡鑑定主要是針對數位簽名、數位簽章，是不是？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是不是針對數位簽章的相關部分？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分你們有委辦。","另外，你們在設備及投資部分，投資了216萬8,000元做臉部表情辨識軟體的設備，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對。這個是人工智慧鑑識的部分。"],["沈委員發惠：我關心的是，相關的建置包括數位簽章的筆跡鑑定是不是納入規劃，最重要的是未來的鑑識能力跟正確性……"],["陳局長白立：我們是希望能夠加速。"],["沈委員發惠：正確性跟客觀性才是數位鑑識裡面最重要的關鍵。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：那你們所期待的成效是什麼樣？"],["陳局長白立：我們希望能夠在鑑識的過程裡面，有效性和效率能夠提高。目前我是比較傾向用人工的，其實面對目前這種新興的詐欺犯罪是非常不足，所以我們希望能夠導入科技，能夠協助鑑識。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我說具體的，像剛剛說的數位簽章，或者是臉部辨識，對於打詐本身，工作在哪一些部分會有所強化？"],["陳局長白立：對於詐騙的簽名、筆跡，我們就可以運用這樣子的工具協助我們來辨識真偽。"],["沈委員發惠：它的正確性和客觀性，目前有得到肯定，還是說，你們還是必須要輔以人工複查？"],["顏處長成安：跟委員報告，目前我們在做簽名的鑑定上面，大部分都是用手寫的簽名鑑定，這部分的鑑定率的正確率是滿高的。"],["沈委員發惠：那是現行的？"],["顏處長成安：是。"],["沈委員發惠：新增這個計畫，就是為了數位簽名嘛！"],["顏處長成安：是。因為數位簽名跟手寫的簽名在運筆跟作業方式都不一樣。"],["沈委員發惠：不一樣，我們自己使用信用卡電子簽名的時候，我們都知道簽下去的字跟我們平常的字不一樣。"],["顏處長成安：是的。所以這個部分我們就必須要導入一些新的科技方法，來輔助我們傳統的方式。"],["沈委員發惠：這部分因為是新增計畫，所以我們還沒有看到計畫的細目，我希望在審查預算的時候，能夠針對這些部分，來做進一步的瞭解。另外還有新型網路犯罪系統智能研析計畫，因為時間的關係，我沒有辦法跟你一個一個細談，但是我比較想要瞭解的是我剛剛所談的第三個新增計畫「智慧司法與科技信任環境建構方案計畫」，你們總共花了1,397萬，這個也是新增的計畫，內容提到設備投資的部分，提到購置司法聯盟鏈共同驗證平臺，這個我很好奇，因為我沒有聽過「司法聯盟鏈」這個名詞，我是第一次聽到，什麼叫司法聯盟鏈？共同驗證平臺我瞭解，什麼叫司法聯盟鏈？你們建置這個平臺之後，希望提供哪一些？這是一個開放的系統，是提供給什麼樣的人使用？"],["張處長尤仁：是。報告委員，司法聯盟鏈目前是由五個單位組成的，是司法院、法務部、高檢署、調查局跟警政署……"],["沈委員發惠：司法院、法務部……"],["張處長尤仁：高檢署、調查局、警政署。"],["沈委員發惠：最後一個是什麼？"],["張處長尤仁：警政署。"],["沈委員發惠：警政署？"],["張處長尤仁：對。由這五個單位組成，我們會建置司法聯盟鏈，主要就是為了確認數位證據驗證的同一性。"],["沈委員發惠：包括數位證據保全，數位證據的保全也是有一個問題，我看最高法院的判決，對於數位證據和確立使用「數位證據」這個用語，提到數位證據有無限的可複製性，以及複製之後無差異性，複製之後你不曉得這個東西是複製的還是原件。增刪內容具無痕跡性，製作人具不易確定性，內容非屬人類感官可以直接理解，像這樣子數位證據的保全及驗證，最重要的是驗證，你們現在花了1,397萬建置這個平臺，未來是讓你剛剛所講的這些司法單位，大家都可以共同使用這個平台來驗證，共同將他們所取得的這些數位證據，納入到這個平台裡面嗎？"],["張處長尤仁：是的。一開始的五個會員會先把我們的數位證據上到司法聯盟鏈，由它的雜湊值來確認數位證據並沒有受到污染，未來我們希望能夠有更多的司法調查單位，甚至律師公會，也能夠加入這個司法聯盟鏈的運作，大家在檢察體系、司法體系或警察體系，對於數位證據的驗證，能夠一致化，保持一致性，然後不會受到污染。"],["沈委員發惠：你講的這個司法聯盟鏈，一般民眾可以共同來利用這樣子的平臺嗎？"],["張處長尤仁：目前是沒有，但是未來的發展會有一個查詢平臺。"],["沈委員發惠：在你們的預期關鍵成果裡面，你們有提到整合規劃純驗證共同平臺，提供全民容易接近使用區塊鏈的服務。"],["張處長尤仁：驗證分兩種，一種就是這個鏈上面的司法檢察單位，或是我們去做驗證；另外一個是民眾如果被搜索了，也可以用這個鏈上去驗證有哪些東西是被搜索的，會在上面得到一個驗證，但是這兩個的使用方式是不一樣的。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我請陳局長。你們現在已經有三個新增的計畫，這個部分本席給予支持……"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：畢竟科技偵查法制化之後，確實是應該要投入更多的資源，將科技偵查的需求，跟我們過去不足的地方，因為法制化之後，我們會編列正式的預算，可以進行精進，但是這些新增的計畫，正因為這些計畫是新增的，所以我希望這些計畫的執行，局長負有督導之責，最重要的是每一個計畫的預期成果，包括階段性的三年計畫，今年的階段性目標是什麼，第二年階段性目標是什麼，我在你們的計畫裡面，其實沒有看到你們所提的具體的目標或階段性的成果。這個部分，我希望陳局長能夠加強督促，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請林思銘委員、林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"158241","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158241","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3777787365654675898f2e9727f492a553481301b577a5e56fcfc4b1692e31e2c95f145e03d1f1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:11:31 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在上個禮拜五因為國民黨他把選罷法排在這個優先的法案然後後來因為有爭議性那我們希望說那是不是這一個沒有爭議性的這一個當沖降稅能夠排進去國民黨不同意那所以上個禮拜呢就沒有通過了那這個禮拜星期五看起來通過的機會也不大因為我們一樣是把這個當沖降稅呢列為優先的法案"},{"start":55.431,"end":67.968,"text":"但是呢國民黨一樣是把這個選罷法還有限速法呢列在優先的討論的這個法案裡面那我請教主委啊那如果這個禮拜五一樣當沖降稅再延三年沒辦法過的話會有什麼影響"},{"start":68.857,"end":86.451,"text":"我想這個部分我們當然是期待這個會期因為這個只到今年的年底法律就是就到今年的年底那上次確實應該就在這個場地吧應該就是大家都已經同意了那我們也是期待本來是說排到當週的星期五就是上個禮拜五吧"},{"start":87.151,"end":116.59,"text":"因為我們也期待他過但是呢我們所有事情我們還是要做萬全的準備所以我們也在開始盤點說萬一立法遲延的時候我們該如何因應我們已經請我們的周邊單位相關的那該怎麼因應呢那看起來是會這個禮拜我是沒辦法過啦我們把各種的狀況我們還是期待我先把最壞的狀況跟你講啦對對對我還是期待他過但是我們我跟你講這禮拜我不會過了啦那我們就備案的話我們就會來來啟動我們已經開始在做這件事情了"},{"start":117.03,"end":129.481,"text":"有哪些備案?第一個,一定系統要改。系統要改,我們的交易的相關單位就必須改變就要花一些人力趕快來做這件事。時間夠嗎?我們有盤點過,他們會盡量來配合。"},{"start":133.724,"end":149.837,"text":"對那時間要多長的時間呢?這個看每家公司我們有請他們開始在做我想距離現在還有一點點時間我就跟你講不會過了啦國民黨不會讓你過啦可是我說假設現在到年底還有一點點時間我覺得我們一定會如果真的這樣的話我們一定會一定要完成對"},{"start":151.198,"end":165.294,"text":"那對啊你說第一個修改程式還有就是說中間還有一些那個待增的作業因為我們現在是待增嘛就等於說由我們的金融業者代替國家來徵收那這部分呢可能未來未來修法"},{"start":166.395,"end":180.656,"text":"會怎麼修布照到底是比如說接下來就沒有了還是說還是追溯到那一天就是說他有各種狀況他要去開始去模擬各種作業的方式那未來可能就是還要主要是人力啦就是人力加班這些的支出啦"},{"start":181.417,"end":203.682,"text":"所以你們現在就開始營業嗎?因為今天明天20號了嘛,大概只剩下10天左右我們已經開始在...開始...我就跟你講要做最壞的打算跟準備因為明天國民黨還是把這個選罷法跟限數法又列在討論的這一個...我也希望能過但是從上個禮拜到明天,我看他們的優先法案"},{"start":203.902,"end":208.404,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":229.076,"end":236.8,"text":"好再請教一下那本來齁我記得我在3月份的時候有問說這個金管會就是說今年要去這個中國去做這個金檢嘛對然後後來好像這個"},{"start":240.666,"end":247.588,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":271.054,"end":281.739,"text":"我們在那邊的金融機構的經營狀況只是說我們沒辦法派員去但是很多的資料我們還是可以請他給我們看那所以如果今年沒辦法過去"},{"start":282.441,"end":309.773,"text":"那明年咧?我看你們還是有編預算明年要過去啊?他其實沒有說不可以只是說現在時機不宜我們還是會按照因為時機不宜就是說你就是不要你就讓你過去啊但是時機不宜的理由到底是什麼啊?當然我們就就因為四月份欸對就是我們現在因為彼此因為我們都有互設金融機構我們有簽那個金融合作的MOU本來就是我們就可以提出要去檢查的那個需求"},{"start":310.333,"end":314.969,"text":"連今年沒去了,四年沒去了還是可以請我們檢察局局長跟你簡單回覆一下"},{"start":317.88,"end":332.094,"text":"我們今年本來是要去三個分行但是因為大陸方面是建議暫緩辦理所以我們本來要去上海跟深圳就是兩家銀行各三家分行那因為剛好這兩家銀行我們在今年也有辦理中信跟義銀"},{"start":340.842,"end":365.47,"text":"那剛好我們今年度也有對這兩家的總行有辦理一般業務檢查跟專案檢查所以我們就以調閱的方式來調閱這兩家銀行在大陸地區分行的相關資料來實施我們的金融檢查那至於預算執行的部分呢因為港澳是同一個預算科目所以呢今年大陸方面建議我們不要去我們就把相關的預算用在對香港的三家分行來實施精檢"},{"start":366.05,"end":387.562,"text":"明年還是會去問一下那個中國明年度還是一樣有編列預算我們是打算到兩家香港兩家那我們還是會尋這個正常程序來跟陸方溝通好那我問一下那現在這一個我們的這個在中國銀行齁暴險的這個金額大概是多少現在大概應該是八千多億八千多億對"},{"start":389.348,"end":403.436,"text":"已經是歷史的低點就是說你們包含這個銀行、證券、保險其他兩個行業的部險那個金額都相對小總共加起來大概一兆出頭"},{"start":404.823,"end":429.956,"text":"我看一下那個資料,就是說大概暴險金額,你剛才說8000多億是不是?將到8000多億?8700億左右那你有詳細的資料,你再給我沒有問題,這個我們有定期公布這些資訊因為現在齁,這個中國不管是這個房地產或是其他的行業齁,這個風險都很高啦那所以我就是說,看一下就是說我們這個銀行業在那邊的這個暴險,暴險的金額是不是有降低啊?"},{"start":430.216,"end":449.555,"text":"其實我們對海外不只是我們都有都有相關的警示跟揭露機制在處理中那相關這些有歷年的資料再請我們同仁再提供給委員參考好那再問一下這一個主委是這個有關這個融資公司管理是那這個你們現在是請銀行工會來來處理嗎不是"},{"start":453.709,"end":457.894,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":473.691,"end":496.779,"text":"對這個融資的這個租賃業有一個那個受信的這個實務的一個一個公告啦對那公告有實施了嗎有啊就是針對那個BMPL跟那個車貸的部分嘛是哪時候實施的上半年那個公佈了之後就立刻實施因為我記得你們那時候是說年底啊怎麼會是上半年呢"},{"start":498.164,"end":506.847,"text":"年底的部分應該是沒有沒有年底的部分應該是我們現在正在做你們有一個什麼授信實務守則有這個東西嗎這個是有這個是針對那個集中度簽署"},{"start":519.757,"end":545.015,"text":"這個是針對那個BMPL還有再來就是中古車的車貸的一些相關的事務的授信的規定對那這也公告實施了嗎對這邊已經公告了是哪時候公告的這個是因為他工會經過我們洽息了之後他應該就可以執行了在哪時候"},{"start":547.174,"end":547.978,"text":"11月的時候11月的時候對"},{"start":552.412,"end":572.925,"text":"將資本額達一定規模以上的上市貴融資註定公司納入金融消費者保護法的適用範圍這個你們是要用行政命令公告的方式來實施嗎?根據我們金融消費者保護法第3條的規定也已經公告了嗎?還沒還沒我剛才講還要尋求社會共識我記得好像11月的時候有問"},{"start":577.968,"end":604.094,"text":"對就是因為現在我覺得當然是希望這些被我們第一波納管的能夠也能夠了解我們整個的所有的內容所以我們還是希望趕快溝通完畢以後我們就公告公告以後兩個月生效以後我們準備兩個月大概能夠在希望能夠在半年五個月之內能夠再上路我記得上次問你們說你們說年底希望能夠納入這個啊信用消費者保護法適用範圍啊是沒錯因為"},{"start":605.394,"end":628.173,"text":"當時我們的預計是說我們希望在年底就能夠公告但是因為他們對我們很多做法還有疑慮還要透過一些希望我們再溝通能夠上次也有參加那個委員會的一個就是我們立法院的一個公聽會希望說我們再開兩次會跟他們溝通完畢我們再來上路我們覺得溝通很重要持續現在主力最大是什麼"},{"start":629.335,"end":650.295,"text":"我想他大概想的第一個可能對比如說未來我們的平益制度、成本還有就是平益的項目還有就是我們納管的強度這些東西因為他們畢竟是第一次所以我們會請我們的法務處還有平益這邊多跟他們溝通所以這個要納入這個金融消費者保護法大概哪時候才會納進去"},{"start":651.636,"end":679.076,"text":"我想說如果說比如說假設我們呃最近能夠盡快的然後召開一些會議溝通完畢大家有共識了我們立刻就按照我剛剛的進程就是法規就公告公告60天後就生效生效完畢以後呢就準備兩個兩個月到三個月我們就開始可以那所以那所以這樣推算的話最快也要半年的時間那已經很快了那已經很快了嗎那是必要的法定程序"},{"start":680.097,"end":685.38,"text":"所以最快半年之內可以拿進去就對了對我們希望我們希望好加油啊謝謝謝謝謝謝委員的好謝謝李坤城委員李坤城委員不用擔心啦禮拜五只要民進黨循規到底做在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":516,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時11分）謝謝主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。當沖降稅再延三年，本來預計是從年底延到2027年嘛，其實朝野都有共識了，本來在上個禮拜五如果順利三讀通過的話，哇，我相信大家都一定很開心，因為這個是好的政策，不分朝野都在支持啊！但是上個禮拜五因為國民黨把選罷法排為優先法案，因為這個是有爭議性的，我們希望是不是能將沒有爭議性的當沖降稅案排進去，但國民黨不同意，所以上個禮拜就沒有通過了。這個禮拜五看起來通過的機會也不大，雖然我們一樣是把當沖降稅列為優先法案，但是國民黨一樣是把選罷法及憲訴法列為優先討論的法案裡面，我請教主委，如果這個禮拜五一樣，當沖降稅再延三年的規定沒辦法通過的話，會有什麼影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個部分，我們當然是期待這個會期能通過，因為這個只到今年的年底嘛，法律期限就到今年的年底，上次確實，應該就在這個場地吧，大家都已經同意了啦……"],["李委員坤城：對！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也是期待，本來是說排到當週的星期五來通過……"],["李委員坤城：就是上個禮拜五啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也期待它過，但是所有的事情我們還是要做萬全的準備，所以我們也開始去盤點萬一立法遲延的時候，我們該如何因應，我們已經請相關的周邊單位開始……"],["李委員坤城：那要怎麼因應呢？看起來這個禮拜五是沒辦法過了啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們把各種的狀況，我們還是期待它能夠……"],["李委員坤城：我先把最壞的狀況跟你講啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對，我還是期待它能過，但是我們……"],["李委員坤城：我跟你講，這禮拜五不會過了啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那我們的備案就會來啟動，我們已經開始在做這件事情了。"],["李委員坤城：有哪些備案呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說第一個，系統要改，我們的交易相關單位就必須要花一些人力趕快來做這件事情。"],["李委員坤城：時間夠嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有盤點過，他們會儘量來配合。"],["李委員坤城：這需要多長的時間呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要看每家公司的狀況，我們有請他們開始在作業，我想距離現在還有一點點時間……"],["李委員坤城：我就跟你講不會過了啦，國民黨不會讓你過啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我是說現在到年底還有一點點時間啦，如果真的這樣的話，我們一定也要完成啦。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，你說第一個是修改程式，還有呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還有就是中間還有一些代徵的作業，因為我們現在是代徵嘛，等於是由我們的金融業者代替國家來徵收，這個部分在未來修法會怎麼修還不知道，是接下來就沒有了，還是說要追溯到那一天，就是說有各種狀況要開始去模擬各種作業的方式，未來可能就是還要……主要是人力啦，就是人力加班的這些支出啦。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們現在就要開始因應嘛，因為明天就20號了嘛，大概只剩下10天左右……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經開始在……"],["李委員坤城：有開始？我就跟你講要做……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這一定要處理，一定要處理。"],["李委員坤城：要做最壞的打算跟準備……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們所有的工作……"],["李委員坤城：因為明天國民黨還是把選罷法跟憲訴法列在討論的這個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，我還是期待能通過。"],["李委員坤城：我也希望能過，但是從上禮拜到明天，我看他們的優先法案就不是你們這個民生法案嘛，就不是你們這個當沖降稅延長三年，沒有！那都排到後面去，你們的法案是被當作肉票，知不知道？當作肉票……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們隨時充滿希望啦！對啊！"],["李委員坤城：你是要充滿希望，但是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我們還是會預做萬全的準備。"],["李委員坤城：但是我要跟你講最壞的情況，你要朝著這個最壞情況的方向去做準備。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們確實要，謝謝委員提醒。"],["李委員坤城：再請教一下，我記得在3月份的時候我有詢問過金管會，今年要去中國做金檢嘛……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員坤城：後來好像對岸說時機不妥，所以你們就沒有過去了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們就去香港……"],["李委員坤城：它是哪時候回復你們的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：大概4月的時候。"],["李委員坤城：4月？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，後來我們就去香港檢查，應該也就順利完成。"],["李委員坤城：去香港？去香港可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：香港可以。"],["李委員坤城：那中國呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：中國就是被推遲嘛，我們就用其他的替代方式檢查。"],["李委員坤城：這樣也可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們就以替代的方式檢查，當然，我們還是要去了解我們在那邊的金融機構的經營狀況，只是說我們沒辦法派員去，但是很多的資料我們還是可以請他給我們看。"],["李委員坤城：如果今年沒辦法過去，那明年呢？我看你們還是有編預算，明年要過去嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它其實沒有說不可以，只是說現在時機不宜，我們還是會按照……"],["李委員坤城：時機不宜就是不要讓你過去啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們彼此有……"],["李委員坤城：但是時機不宜的理由到底是什麼啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我們就……"],["李委員坤城：因為4月份耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們彼此都有互設金融機構，我們有簽金融合作的MOU，本來我們就可以提出要去檢查的需求，所以……"],["李委員坤城：對啊，已經4年沒去了，連今年沒去就4年沒去了！"],["彭主任委員金隆：還是請我們檢查局局長跟您簡單回復一下？"],["李委員坤城：好。"],["童局長政彰：報告委員，我們今年本來是要去三個分行，但是因為大陸方面是建議暫緩辦理，所以我們……"],["李委員坤城：本來要去哪裡？"],["童局長政彰：我們本來要去上海跟深圳，就是兩家銀行的各三家分行，因為剛好這兩家銀行我們在今年也有辦理……"],["李委員坤城：哪兩家？"],["童局長政彰：就是中信跟一銀，剛好我們今年度也有對這兩家總行辦理一般業務檢查跟專案檢查，所以我們就以調閱的方式調閱了這兩家銀行在大陸地區分行的相關資料，以此來實施我們的金融檢查。至於預算執行的部分，因為港澳是同一個預算科目，所以今年大陸方面建議我們不要去，我們就把相關的預算用在對香港的三家分行來實施金檢。"],["李委員坤城：所以明年還是會去問一下中國？"],["童局長政彰：對，我們明年度還是一樣有編列預算，我們是打算到大陸兩家、香港兩家，我們還是會循正常程序來跟陸方溝通。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我問一下，現在我們在中國的銀行，暴險的金額大概是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在大概是八千多億。"],["李委員坤城：八千多億？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，已經是歷史的低點。"],["李委員坤城：就是說，包含銀行、證券、保險……"],["彭主任委員金隆：其他兩個行業的暴險，那個金額都相對小，總共加起來大概1兆出頭。"],["李委員坤城：我看了一下相關的資料，暴險的金額，你剛剛說八千多億，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員坤城：降到八千多億？"],["彭主任委員金隆：8,700億左右。"],["李委員坤城：如果你有詳細的資料再提供給我，因為……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題，我們有定期公布這些資訊，我們再把它……"],["李委員坤城：有定期公布就對了。因為現在中國不管是房地產或是其他行業的風險都很高啦，所以我就是想看一下我們銀行業在那邊的暴險金額是不是有降低啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們對海外不只都有相關的警示跟揭露機制在處理中，相關的這些，比如歷年的資料，我再請我們同仁提供給委員參考。"],["李委員坤城：好，那再問一下主委有關融資公司的管理，你們現在是請銀行公會來處理嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，喔，融資公司的貸放部分是請那個，因為是銀行借錢給他們嘛，我們從貸後管理的角度來要求銀行跟融資公司互動。"],["李委員坤城：不是，我的意思是說，那時候我也有問過啦，就是你們現在先請銀行公會對融資租賃業有一個授信實務的公告啦，那個公告有實施了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有啊，就是針對那個BNPL跟車貸的部分。"],["李委員坤城：是哪時候實施的？"],["莊局長琇媛：上半年公布了之後就立刻實施。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我記得你們那時候是說年底啊，怎麼會是上半年呢？"],["莊局長琇媛：年底的部分，沒有、沒有，年底的部分應該是我們現在正在做……"],["李委員坤城：你們有一個什麼授信實務守則啊，有這個東西嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：有，這個是針對那個BNPL，再來就是中古車的車貸的一些相關實務授信的規定。"],["李委員坤城：對，這也公告實施了嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：對，這邊已經公告了。"],["李委員坤城：是哪時候公告的？"],["莊局長琇媛：因為公會經過我們洽悉了之後，它應該就可以執行了。"],["李委員坤城：哪時候？"],["莊局長琇媛：11月的時候。"],["李委員坤城：11月的時候？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["李委員坤城：將資本額達一定規模以上的上市櫃融資租賃公司納入金融消費者保護法的適用範圍，這個你們是要用行政命令公告的方式來實施嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，就根據我們金融消費者保護法第三條的規定。"],["李委員坤城：也已經公告了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還沒、還沒，我剛才講過還要尋求社會共識，就是他們還要……"],["李委員坤城：這個我記得好像11月的時候有問耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們當然是希望這些被我們第一波納管的也能夠了解我們整個所有的內容，所以我們還是希望趕快溝通完畢後就公告，公告以後兩個月生效，之後我們準備兩個月，希望能夠在半年、五個月之內能夠上路。"],["李委員坤城：我記得上次問你的時候，你們說年底希望能夠納入金融消費者保護法的適用範圍啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒錯，因為當時我們的預計是希望在年底就能夠公告，但是因為他們對我們很多作法還有疑慮，希望我們再溝通，上次也有參加立法院的公聽會，希望我們再開兩次會，跟他們溝通完畢之後再來上路，我們也覺得溝通很重要，持續……"],["李委員坤城：現在阻力最大的是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想他大概想的第一個可能是未來我們的評議制度、成本，還有評議的項目，還有我們納管的強度等等這些東西，因為他們畢竟是第一次嘛，所以我們會請我們的法務處及評議這邊多跟他們溝通。"],["李委員坤城：所以呢？大概哪時候才能納入金融消費者保護法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想說，假如我們最近能夠儘快的召開一些會議，溝通完，大家有共識了，我們立刻就按照我剛剛說的進程，就是法規公告，公告60天後就生效，生效完畢以後就準備兩個月到三個月，我們就開始可以處理……"],["李委員坤城：所以這樣推算的話，最快也要半年的時間耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：那已經很快了。"],["李委員坤城：那已經很快了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是必要的法定程序。"],["李委員坤城：所以最快半年之內可以納進去就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們希望。"],["李委員坤城：好，加油。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。李坤城委員不用擔心，禮拜五只要民進黨循規蹈矩的坐在座位上按表決器，那就一定會審到證交法。"],["李委員坤城：你有你的職權沒有錯，等你沒有坐在主席的位子再講話，好不好？"],["李委員彥秀：尊重一下主席。"],["李委員坤城：尊重一下質詢的委員。"],["主席：我尊重你，我是……"],["李委員坤城：尊重一下質詢的委員，我講完話之後你都要加附詞。"],["主席：我們大家都關心民生法案。"],["李委員坤城：尊重一下質詢的委員，這是我的質詢時間，你的質詢時間你再講就好了啊！"],["主席：循規蹈矩大家按表決器啦！謝謝您。"],["李委員坤城：浪費大家的時間，你有你的質詢時間。"],["李委員彥秀：這不耽誤我的時間。"],["李委員坤城：那就耽誤你的時間。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有關係！我尊重主席，如果……"],["主席：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：互相尊重，我講完話，他就要講一些廢話。"],["主席：我是幫你解除你的疑慮，不用擔心。"],["李委員坤城：你們不要把這些爭議性的選罷法列在前面就可以了，那個……"],["主席：你們坐在座位上好好的按表決器就可以了，所有的案子都會過，主要是你們不要在那邊鬧場就可以了，謝謝。","請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司（僅詢答）；三、審查中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管：\n（僅詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1140901_00002"}}},{"id":"158240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158240","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/377778736565467569626c3425e1a80c53481301b577a5e56fcfc4b1692e31e22ea2eef765d06ad55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:00:34 - 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下事實上在現在金融市場包含我們的一些傳統的金融機構"},{"start":332.27,"end":347.259,"text":"那他們也很想涉足包含虛擬貨幣的相關的服務我還不講說是投資他是一些相關的服務那另外呢別說像我們的投信你剛講說可以放寬這個專業人士專業人士去投資ETF那好那但是我們現在我們並沒有開放虛擬貨幣的ETF對不對"},{"start":358.226,"end":379.558,"text":"我們現在是可以投國外的對只能投國外的嘛用副委託的方式嘛那但是呢這個市場其實這個是一定會很快的走走到這一步所以我剛講包含他們提供相關的服務還有比如國內的投信業者他們也會想說我可不可以發行"},{"start":381.099,"end":406.052,"text":"虛擬貨幣的ETF之類的那我想請問這個在未來我們的這個虛擬貨幣虛擬這個資產的相關的專法裡面會不會把這邊也也會把它納入我在這邊其實我都是在打預防針因為我覺得我們現在美國大選前跟美國大選後對虛擬貨幣的思維一定要有所改變"},{"start":406.832,"end":430.64,"text":"其實我們也是當然我剛跟委員講說美國當然是世界上非常重要的國家他的政策當然對全世界影響但我們的步驟是按照這個來走我剛講我們6月底之前會把那個這個我們的方案送進行政院剛剛有提到銀行的部分我們在明年1月1號開始就開放銀行去申請保管虛擬資產"},{"start":433.323,"end":441.483,"text":"這個事辦我們從1月1號因為我們這法規從12月就頒布但是我們是從1月1號才開始請他們準備一下可以來申請"},{"start":443.194,"end":445.856,"text":"可以申請但是什麼時候可以上路呢?"},{"start":473.334,"end":484.021,"text":"有關我們正常的這些的金融機構去從事這個所謂的虛擬資產業務的部分我們現在還是先從我們的虛擬資產服務業的管理來開始來做當然這部分我也會請我們的同仁也會關注這樣的一個發展所以我們暫時不會開放傳統的金融機構"},{"start":497.21,"end":497.931,"text":"會不會開放發行虛擬貨幣的ETF?"},{"start":511.074,"end":526.007,"text":"這我們還要再來想一下所以短期間不會短期間如果說在這幾個月之內我想應該是不太可能我覺得這個東西可能你們都要做比較進一步的決定沒有這都會納入我們的考量因為有時間關係"},{"start":527.868,"end":548.494,"text":"還有一個是大家非常關心我之前也有質詢那個主委也有來跟我在做說明那因為最近我仍然有我們的很多的選民在關心就是呢那個有關於保單不能強制執行的部分我們的現在進度到底在哪裡我現在還被人家一直追著問啊有很多人更關心啊"},{"start":549.194,"end":571.275,"text":"現在的話我們當然就是還在跟各個委員在溝通的階段就是把那個版本就跟我們草案已經出來了所以你們沒有送到行政院到目前沒有出金管會大門先溝通完後我們立刻會送過去但是最近我們會加快這個速度那什麼時候可以我想如果說希望在這個會期之前能夠送進去"},{"start":572.489,"end":589.13,"text":"這個會期之前我們是要到明年了啊?盡快,如果這個月能夠的話我就盡快完成所以今年年底能不能拼?不曉得我要講就是說那另外就是你不可強制執行的這個額度是不是還是跟你上一次,因為我上次質詢你的還是基本上是在那個標準"},{"start":590.792,"end":609.108,"text":"就是解約金額10萬到20萬還是這樣子嗎?還是會更放寬一點不要再更嚴了啦不要再更嚴格了我想這個部分大概就是類似這樣這樣因為還要共生我們只是提出一個方向而已所以要等到今年就拼今年年底把它送出去"},{"start":609.768,"end":625.286,"text":"對這是我們這也是我們今年這個會期列入我們金管會的優先推動了對其實明年很重要因為這件事情有非常多的很多的我們的一般的選民真的而且都是有些是弱勢的選民因為現在有幾十萬件"},{"start":626.067,"end":627.327,"text":"接著我們請李坤臣委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":456,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時）謝謝主席，請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委好。未來金管會的一些相關業務有很多挑戰性，當然最近大家比較聚焦於租賃公司，我這邊也有一些那種集體受害的案件，因為對於資訊整個不對等，造成這些屬於在融資市場比較邊緣性的客戶受害的狀況。另外，我們馬上就要審金管會的預算，說實在金管會的預算也不到20億。"],["彭主任委員金隆：17億。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實金額是很少，但是金管會的業務、法規、政策卻非常重要，我今天要就教於主委的是，大家都知道美國大選已經結束、川普當選，川普當選對全世界的地緣政治、經濟、金融市場都會有很多的挑戰，所以我在這邊想請教一下主委，因為在川普當選之後對於虛擬貨幣極為友善，而且顯而易見的，美國作為金融領導市場，在未來會有非常多大的改變。最近比特幣一路飆漲，而且美國的上市公司、金融機構也爭相的去投入、投資有關於虛擬貨幣業務或者是相關服務，包含川普支持國家建立國家戰略的比特幣儲備，當然這個部分我應該要問中央銀行，還有包括被換下來的美國證管會（SEC）主席是比較保守的，上來的是處於比較開放，而且是幣圈中的人士。","所以在這樣的趨勢下，過去我們也曾經關心金管會有關於虛擬貨幣的相關專法，我想請問一下主委，這些相關的專法還有政策，目前你們的進度是什麼？會不會隨著川普的當選，我剛剛講美國的政策出現極大的改變，我們會不會加快進度或者更加的鬆綁？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實我們對於虛擬資產是按部就班的在執行，剛剛的話，我覺得我們是非常的謹慎，我們是這個態度，其實我們也參考了周圍一些國家的制定，對於這個東西，我們倒不會因為一個國家而加速或改變，我們是想要參考比如其他國家法制作業的時候，我們來做一個，因為畢竟這都是新的東西，美國未來會怎麼做還在觀察，比如說歐盟的MiCA，還有比如新加坡他們對這個的管理，這些都很值得我們來參考。所以我們最近是這樣，我們在11月30號公布了VASP的洗錢專法以後，就進入到另外一個更高的層次在管制這個行業，這是第一步。","其次就是上次也跟委員提過的，我們對於開放專業投資人可以投資比特幣的ETF，這件事我們還在試行中。","再來就是剛剛委員關切的專法部分，專法的部分很重要的就是開始對這個機構做管理，還是要對它的交易做管理，還是要對消費者保護做管理，這部分我們正在討論，我們的委外研究已經出來了，我們正在做內部討論，也還在吸收各界的意見來訂定我們專法的草案內容，大概是這樣，我們……"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，剛才從你的回答聽起來，我覺得金管會目前還是屬於比較保守的，當然，因為對於虛擬貨幣，其實臺灣的相關法規基本上目前比較停留在所謂的防弊，比如說在防制洗錢的部分。但是我剛才在講的，你今天要參考其他的國家，其實你參考亞洲的國家，它的意義又不大一樣。我剛特別講到美國，因為美國一定會帶動全世界，所以包含它的上市櫃公司，他們現在也開始更加積極地去投資虛擬貨幣，臺灣可能還是有受到我們的一些會計準則的相關規定，也會影響企業界去投資。我比較擔心的是，如果現在我們的心態仍然是屬於比較保守的話，我們可能會被動的要去因應外界這些相關的金融市場會出現翻天動地的變化。","另外，我請教一下，事實上，現在的金融市場，包含我們一些傳統的金融機構，他們也很想涉足包含虛擬貨幣的相關服務……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我還不說是投資，而是一些相關的服務，另外，比如說像我們的投信，你剛剛說可以放寬專業人士去投資ETF，好，但是我們現在並沒有開放虛擬貨幣的ETF嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在是可以投國外的。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，只能投國外的嘛，用複委託的方式嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是這個市場一定會很快地走到這一步，所以我剛剛講，包含他們提供相關的服務，還有比如國內的投信業者也會想說可不可以發行虛擬貨幣的ETF之類的，我想請問，在未來我們的虛擬貨幣、虛擬資產的相關專法裡面，會不會把這邊也納入？我在這邊其實都是在打預防針啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我覺得在美國大選前跟美國大選後，對於虛擬貨幣的思維一定要有所改變。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們也是……當然啦，我剛剛跟委員講說，美國當然是世界上非常重要的國家，它的政策當然對全世界會有影響，但我們的步驟是按照這個來走，我剛剛講我們在6月底之前會把我們的方案送進行政院嘛，剛剛也有提到，銀行的部分，我們在明年1月1號開始就開放銀行去申請保管虛擬資產，這個試辦從1月1號開始，因為我們的法規從12月就頒布了，但是我們是1月1號才開始請他們準備一下可以來申請。","再來就是我們要……"],["王委員鴻薇：可以申請，但是什麼時候可以上路呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：申請試辦以後，只要我們同意它試辦，立刻就可以開始做了，就只是試辦的性質啦，等於說這部分它要來申請試辦，不是全面開放，就是來試辦的人，我們要看它的技術，還有安控有沒有符合要求，就是讓它做做看，實際上就是上路的意思啦，但不是全面的，等到試辦成功了，我們有一定的規範，我們就可以考慮是否要走下一步，這是第一個。","第二個，有關我們正常的這些金融機構去從事所謂的虛擬資產業務的部分，我們現在還是先從虛擬資產服務業的管理開始來做，當然，這部分我也會請我們的同仁要關注這樣的發展……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們暫時不會開放傳統的金融機構去做虛擬資產的服務？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分還要再評估，但是我們會儘量的讓他們用漸進的方式去涉獵到未來的這些所謂金融科技的領域。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，另外就是會不會開放發行虛擬貨幣的ETF？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們還要再來想一下。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以短期間不會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：短期間，如果是說在這幾個月之內，我想應該是不太可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得這個東西可能你們都要做比較進一步的探討……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，這都會納入我們的考量。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，因為時間的關係，還有一個是大家非常關心的，我之前也有質詢過，主委也有來跟我做說明，因為最近仍然有很多選民在關心，就是有關於保單不能強制執行的部分，你們現在的進度到底在哪裡？我現在還被人家一直追著問耶，因為這個問題很多人都在關心啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，我們還在跟各個委員溝通的階段，我們的草案已經出來了……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們還沒有送到行政院？到目前沒有出金管會大門？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們要先溝通完畢，之後我們立刻會送過去，最近我們會加快這個速度。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼時候可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我希望在這個會期之前能夠送進去。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個會期之前，是要到明年了啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：儘快，如果這個月能夠的話，我就儘快完成這件事。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以今年年底能不能拚不曉得？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我要……"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的就是說，另外，你不可強制執行的這個額度是不是還是跟你上一次所說的一樣，我上次質詢你的，基本上還是在那個標準？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們是……"],["王委員鴻薇：就是解約金額10萬到20萬，還是這樣子嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：差不多就是……"],["王委員鴻薇：還是會更放寬一點？不要再更嚴了啦！不要再更嚴格了！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想這個部分大概就是類似像這樣，因為還要有一個共識，我們只是提出一個方向而已。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以要拚今年年底把它送出去，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個也是今年這個會期列入我們金管會優先要推動的法案。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，其實明年很重要，因為這件事情關係到很多的一般選民，而且有些是弱勢的選民……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我也非常急，因為現在有幾十萬件還在……"],["王委員鴻薇：都卡在法院啊，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為我們這個解決方案可以解決掉七、八成的這個問題，我們也非常希望趕快能夠實施。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我希望能夠儘快、儘快，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，希望委員以後多多幫忙。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接著請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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謝謝我想這個我們要正式主任業在監管套利的一個問題我們當然非常清楚就是說主任公司他其實是根據公司法他所設立的合法設立的"},{"start":152.037,"end":179.141,"text":"他其實最重要的業務他還是放在就是租借設備還有工具然後就是融資給企業或是個人可是主委你看從上面的這一份整理出來的一個資料我們看這前面在上一頁我們看到了就是說我們三家上市的租賃公司裡頭不管是中租那個育融還是那個核任"},{"start":179.981,"end":207.738,"text":"他在個人的車輛的一個融資占比都占了他的業務比跟華人的融資幾乎是快要非常接近了一個43一個53那尤其就是說他其實最主要的業務是在中小企業的一個融資可是之前我們非常在意的就是先買後戶這個個人的一個車資方面他接近了一半的一個規模業務的一個規模"},{"start":209.719,"end":238.646,"text":"那所以在這裡特別跟那個主委強調的就是說他其實這個三家公司他們的企業規模占總體的租賃業的一個規模是90%這已經相當多囉是他們是三個很大的租賃公司是啊那這個比銀行更靈活的方式借給消費者那我們又沒有辦法去保護消費者剛才銀行局的局長講得非常清楚"},{"start":240.27,"end":266.016,"text":"他講什麼那個主委你有沒有聽到就是我們會用金融消保法來納管會納管對一定會納管這要經過剛剛的法規的這個算不算是普惠金融當然普惠金融是看從他的比如他的服務面其實假設其實我們必須講融資公司在過去對在企業金融部分他是其實扮演非常非常的一個也是有他一定的角色跟貢獻當然"},{"start":266.796,"end":282.749,"text":"當然但最近衍生的問題都是出在個人金融就比如說這個跟車貸或是先買後付這些的內容而來所以這要切開就是說其實他們不是所有的業務都是我們現在未來納管金融消費者保護法管的就是"},{"start":283.73,"end":309.764,"text":"個人業務就是法人業務是不會不會受到影響的所以我們也是會加強溝通那那個主委先生在本席在跟你探討的第7波我們的打黃那事實上我們慢慢的有調整到就是說整個就是房地產慢慢歸向一個比較正常的一個狀況那如果在銀行法第72支2條裡頭規定的時候就是公股銀行他的"},{"start":310.484,"end":335.16,"text":"那個不可以換款不動產也不能超過不能超過就是存款的餘額的30%可是融資公司在這一個這一個72支2條他其實找到了一個破洞他如何去就是說他形同去規避就是銀行法他把借來的錢然後借給那個建設公司那你怎麼看呢"},{"start":335.62,"end":353.883,"text":"其實我們在12月13號的時候我們就發了一個函給銀行公會要求他們做到像剛剛委員所報告這件事情第一個如果說第一個他一定要做好貸後管理比如說你的用途跟你的貸款的目的應該是要相符銀行要去做這樣的一個勾結"},{"start":355.064,"end":362.886,"text":"二、一般放款流入不動產,銀行要納入不動產風險管理機制也要記錄信用管制範圍,這樣就會納入規定二、未來要做好控管,對這個問題我們會避免成為管理銀行風險的漏洞"},{"start":383.59,"end":398.207,"text":"你這個12月13號你提出來這個是行政命令那是不是你會再討論就是說主任公司專法的一個就是討論啊現在是這樣我們設定一個專法的討論是不是會更周全"},{"start":398.547,"end":427.896,"text":"我們是兩路並進第一個我們是希望說因為我們的專法從民國85年開始討論到現在中間有很多的分歧很多的不同的意義所以這代表說整合是比較困難但是我們覺得說如果要解決這個問題專法也是個方法所以我們已經委託委外研究我們也正在做這個專法的研究但是呢專法要通過要經過一段可能不知道多久的時間但我覺得這種空窗不能等所以我們用金寶法來做一個納管"},{"start":428.396,"end":430.538,"text":"二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會主管中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有"},{"start":458.118,"end":475.009,"text":"這個有多嚴重他其實主任公司他佔了3%然後你的23家信用合作社才佔了2%這個其實我們都是從各種數據裡頭是要跟這個主委去探討就是說主任公司其實在整個市場上"},{"start":477.491,"end":497.772,"text":"市場上佔了一個很大的比例那如果我們還無法可管的話那這算不算是對窮人的普惠金融那我就覺得說金管會是不是有懈責呢主委你的看法其實我剛剛跟委員報告過我們是希望同一個行為同一個風險同一個管理"},{"start":498.513,"end":518.826,"text":"那假設比如說融資行為已經做到比如說類金融的這樣服務而且呢他真的對消費者有產生這樣一個這個這個負面的影響我們當然就像我剛剛跟委員報告了我們還是希望站在保護消費者弱勢的角度由公權力介入所以我們現在已經在積極在做這件事"},{"start":520.827,"end":543.475,"text":"我再跟你看一個我們就是說我們去把它從金融機構跟租賃公司的貸款條件裡頭我們去做了一些比較就是說銀行其實銀行基本上就是說在不良的一個信貸還是說信用的瑕疵利息的高低還有就是法規的法規的一個保障在銀行裡頭做得非常的好"},{"start":544.815,"end":567.527,"text":"那主任公司你看起來就是有一點就是非常的有有這個這個說起來就是這樣子就是說其實他看起來這個整體而言這個資料來源是從中都那個中低那個中株底核這裡頭做出來的其實我覺得他這一張圖裡頭某種程度"},{"start":570.048,"end":574.152,"text":"市場上不同的融資管道他們要求的標準不同為什麼銀行要這麼久因為我們對銀行的管理跟他"},{"start":591.249,"end":612.092,"text":"有很大的不同銀行我沒有對他的機構做管理比如說你的資本要求、內控、內機這些都有要求所以他要執行這些東西他成本也比較高但他安全性比較高對民眾保障比較多但是有些人確實他的債券條件沒有那麼好的時候或他的很多的彈性不夠他就會跑去另外一個管道這個管道並不是說都是不好的"},{"start":612.792,"end":640.206,"text":"不同的債性只是說我們不管怎麼樣契約公平公平對待每一個客戶我想這是一個基本的道理所以我們才會進行這樣的納管主委我想就是說後續的就是說不管是不是比照金融機構他公開他的財務的一個資訊還是說主任公司他的一個信手目前的一個進度那最重要的我要跟主委做一個要求"},{"start":640.926,"end":667.959,"text":"租賃公司的一個授信的守則如何落實這一個穿透式的一個管理就是從你金管會你去管銀行然後銀行再來管租賃這個有沒有辦法做到?你在未來有沒有辦法做到?我們現在已經有這個東西我們再把它強化就可以了就是實際上應該都有這個部分我們已經透過銀行的授信跟那個租賃公司之間有一個管理包括我剛剛跟委員報告12月13號那個那個規定也是"},{"start":670.677,"end":684.241,"text":"好,所以你逐步在講了嘛,所以我們也看到中租它在那個上個禮拜它發表,它發布了一個那個重訓,它講說它的董事會跟兆豐銀行簽訂了一個65億元的聯合授信合約"},{"start":689.778,"end":700.195,"text":"那個主委我看到這一個信息其實我是更害怕他等於就是說他把這個兆豐抓進來就是他變成本來沒白變有白喔"},{"start":701.431,"end":724.638,"text":"本來看起來我們還可以就是去質疑他的一個信用現在變成是有信用的所以這個是我們比較擔心的一個議題所以你要加快腳步這個我們因為他其實中蘇本身也是一個上市公司他有他的業務他跟銀行做一個融資只要不要流入剛才講的我們所要所要擔心的那個範圍這是他正常業務的範圍"},{"start":725.558,"end":747.143,"text":"好各位再回到上個月就是我們國民黨的委員有召開一個融資公司納入軍保法的一個協調會那我要知道就是說這個協調會裡頭軍管會有沒有受到施壓其實這不是施壓就是說我們要溝通因為我們要請把他們納管的時候他們有疑議那我們想說我們盡量解釋清楚所以剛才講過"},{"start":748.283,"end":758.016,"text":"我們當然是希望盡快實施若一一趕快來跟我們溝通我們希望說這個比如這個這個協調或公聽會趕快開始大家有什麼問題我們把它溝通完畢以後可以及早上路啊"},{"start":759.338,"end":784.992,"text":"所以沒有施壓那就是說溝通的一部分所以我們這個金融消費者的一個保護法我們會加速是是我們是希望趕快因為社會對這個東西的期待現在是沒有施壓的話你就會加速嘛對不對他有一定的程序啦我想我還是尊重所有的程序就是照著這個程序然後會再加速當然我們能加速我們盡量加速但是我們社會要有共識還是很重要"},{"start":785.592,"end":810.98,"text":"社會共識是是謝謝好謝謝那我希望就是金管會在一個月內就是對於就是會中討論就是融資公司納入那個金保法的一個協調會裡頭的一個討論事項你是不是有一些比較具體的看法在一個月內提出一個書面的報告給本席沒問題我們盡快提供謝謝謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝那位委員接著我們請王洪威委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時46分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["賴委員惠員：還有銀行局局長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早安。"],["賴委員惠員：主委早安。主委，今天要跟你討論的是租賃公司套利的問題、租賃公司融資的問題，還有你如何管理租賃公司的問題，事實上，在這一陣子我們看到有幾個委員，不管是王世堅委員、郭國文委員也針對這些事情跟金管會做一個探討。在這裡我要先請問銀行局局長，租賃公司歸不歸你管？它是銀行，還是只是一個法人機構？"],["莊局長琇媛：目前我們定義它還只是一般的法人機構，我們現在正在考慮先把它納到金保法裡面，針對消費者權益的部分來管理。"],["賴委員惠員：多久會把它納入？"],["莊局長琇媛：這個部分的話……"],["賴委員惠員：你預期多久會納入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在所有的法制規定都已經準備好了，只要先預告完，預告結束，我們就可以開始做，如果在法制上面應該……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，什麼時候可以預告呢？這個預告的時程大概會放在什麼時候？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在還要……立法院還要溝通，還有就是因為可能還要再開過幾次公聽會以後，才能夠……"],["賴委員惠員：要開過幾次的公聽會？2次的公聽會……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們上次有開過一個協調會，還有2次的公聽會。"],["賴委員惠員：還有2次的公聽會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們要多多溝通一下。"],["賴委員惠員：這2次的公聽會，你會給它壓縮到什麼樣的時間呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，只要是通過以後、大家有共識以後，我們現在法制作業都準備好，我們公告以後一定的時間就會實施了。"],["賴委員惠員：我希望你可以確切地給本席一個時間點，譬如3個月還是半年，我覺得這個是非常重要的，有沒有辦法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：法規的話，我們的預告是60天，假設從今天開始算60天，準備2個月，我覺得最快的時間從預告開始，四到五個月應該就可以上路。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有辦法在5個月內把它完成？"],["彭主任委員金隆：假設溝通程序結束的話，我們5個月之內是可以完成的，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝，我們要正視租賃業在監管套利的問題。我們當然非常清楚，租賃公司其實是根據公司法所合法設立的，最重要的業務還是放在租借設備及工具，然後就是融資給企業或是個人。可是主委你看，從簡報上面整理出來的資料，我們看到3家上市租賃公司，包括中租、裕隆、還有和潤，在其整體業務中，個人車輛融資的占比跟法人融資業務的占比幾乎快要非常接近，一個是43%，一個是53%，尤其他們最主要的業務是中小企業的融資，之前我們非常在意的先買後付業務及個人車輛融資業務也占了接近一半的業務規模。所以在這裡特別跟主委強調，其實這3家公司他們的企業規模占總體租賃業的規模是90%，這已經相當多了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，他們是3個很大的租賃公司。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊，他們用比銀行更靈活的方式借給消費者，我們又沒有辦法去保護消費者。剛才銀行局的局長講得非常清楚，他講什麼，主委你有沒有聽到？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是我們會用金融消保法來納管。"],["賴委員惠員：會納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["賴委員惠員：一定會納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要經過剛才說的法規的預告通過。"],["賴委員惠員：這個算不算是普惠金融？"],["彭主任委員金隆：普惠金融是看比如它的服務面，我們必須講，融資公司過去在企業金融部分其實也扮演一定的角色跟貢獻。"],["賴委員惠員：當然、當然。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但最近衍生的問題都是出在個人金融，比如車貸或是先買後付這些內容而來，所以這要切開，就是其實他們不是所有的業務都是我們未來納管的，金融消費者保護法管的就是個人業務，法人業務是不會受到影響的，所以我們也會加強溝通。"],["賴委員惠員：好。主委，現在本席再跟你探討第七波的打房，事實上我們有調整到讓房地產慢慢歸向一個比較正常的狀況，銀行法第七十二條之二裡頭規定，公股銀行放款不動產不能超過存款餘額的30%，可是融資公司在第七十二條之二找到了一個破洞，形同去規避銀行法，把從公股銀行借來的錢再借給建設公司，你怎麼看呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們在12月13號的時候就發了一個函給銀行公會，要求他們做到像剛才委員所報告的這件事情，第一個，它一定要做好貸後管理，比如用途跟貸款的目的應該要相符，銀行要去做這樣的勾稽；第二個，如果這個放款是一般放款，卻流入了不動產的話，銀行要納入它不動產的風險管理機制，也要計入剛剛所謂的信用管制範圍，其實這樣就會把它納入規定。再來，未來它應該要做好控管，對於這個問題，我們會再避免成為管理銀行風險時的漏洞。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，12月13日提出來的是行政命令，會不會有租賃公司專法的討論呢？設定一個專法的討論是不是會更周全？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們是兩路並進，第一個，因為我們的專法從民國85年開始討論到現在，中間有很多的分歧，很多不同的意義，所以代表整合比較困難，但是我們覺得如果要解決這個問題，專法也是個方法，所以我們已經委託委外研究，我們也正在做這個專法的研究。但是專法要通過要經過一段不知道多久的時間，但我覺得這種空窗不能等，所以我們用金保法來做一個納管，我們是雙軌在並進。"],["賴委員惠員：這是一個非常積極的態度。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：我還是再回到租賃公司的部分，以金管會主管的四大金融機構的23家信用合作社，與租賃公司兩相比較的話，你知道這個問題有多嚴重？在個人車貸金額3,140億當中，租賃公司占了3%，23家信用合作社才占了2%，其實我們提出各種數據就是要跟主委探討，租賃公司在整個消費市場上占了一個很大比例，如果我們還無法可管的話，這算不算是對窮人的普惠金融？金管會是不是有卸責呢？我想聽一聽主委的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我剛才跟委員報告過，我們希望同一個行為、同一個風險、同一個管理，假設融資行為已經做到類金融這樣的服務，而且它真的對消費者有產生負面的影響，當然就像我剛剛跟委員報告的，我們還是希望站在保護消費者弱勢的角度，由公權力介入，所以我們現在已經積極在做這件事。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我再給你看一個問題，我們把金融機構與租賃公司的貸款條件做了一些比較，基本上，在不良信貸、信用瑕疵、利息高低以及法規保障部分，在銀行端做得非常好，租賃公司看起來非常的有……說起來就是這樣子，整體而言，這個資料來源是中租迪和做出來的。其實我覺得這一張圖表可以看得出來某種程度都是在誘惑這些無知的、需要錢的一般消費者，這個才是問題嚴重的地方。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我的意思是其實我們市場上有不同的融資管道，他們要求的標準不同，為什麼銀行要這麼久？因為我們對銀行的管理跟它有很大的不同，我們有對銀行的機構做管理，比如資本要求、內控內稽，這些都有要求，所以它要執行這些東西的成本也比較高，但是安全性也會比較高，對民眾的保障比較多，但是有些人確實債信條件沒有那麼好的時候或是很多的彈性不夠，他就會跑去另外一個管道，這個管道並不是都是不好的，他是不同的債信，只是不管怎麼樣基於契約公平，公平對待每一個客戶是一個基本道理，所以我們才要進行這樣的納管。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，後續不管是不是比照金融機構公開它的財務資訊，或目前租賃公司的授信守則進度，最重要的，我要跟主委提出一個要求，租賃公司的授信守則如何落實穿透式管理，也就是金管會去管銀行，銀行再來管租賃公司，這個管理有沒有辦法做到？在未來有沒有辦法做到？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在已經有這個東西，我們再把它強化就可以了，實際上應該都有這個部分，我們已經透過銀行的授信和租賃公司之間有一個管理，包括我剛剛跟委員報告的，12月13日那個規定也是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，所以你逐步在做了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["賴委員惠員：我們也看到中租在上個禮拜發布了一個重訊，表示董事會已經跟兆豐銀行簽訂了65億元的聯合授信合約，主委，我看到這個訊息其實是更害怕的，它等於也把兆豐抓進來，從本來沒牌變成有牌，本來看起來我們還可以去質疑它的信用，現在變成是有信用的喔！這個是我們比較擔心的一個議題，所以你要加快腳步。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實中租本身也是一個上市公司，它有它的業務，它跟銀行做融資，只要不要流入剛才講的我們所擔心的那個範圍，這也是它正常業務的範圍。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，再回到上個月國民黨委員有召開一個融資公司納入金保法的協調會，我要知道在協調會裡頭金管會有沒有受到施壓？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這不是施壓，就是我們要溝通，因為我們要把他們納管的時候，他們有疑義，我們儘量解釋清楚，所以我剛剛講過，我們當然是希望儘快實施，如果有疑義趕快來跟我們溝通，我們也希望這個協調或公聽會趕快開始，大家有什麼問題，我們把它溝通完畢以後，可以及早上路。"],["賴委員惠員：所以沒有施壓？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得這是溝通的一部分。"],["賴委員惠員：所以金融消費者保護法我們會加速？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們是希望趕快，因為社會對這個東西的期待比較高。"],["賴委員惠員：既然沒有施壓的話，你就會加速，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它有一定的程序，委員，我還是尊重所有的程序。"],["賴委員惠員：你會照著這個程序，然後會再加速。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們能加速，我們儘量加速，但是社會要有共識還是很重要，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。對於融資公司納入金保法協調會中的討論事項，金管會是不是有一些比較具體的看法，在一個月內提出一個書面報告給本席，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題，我們儘快提供，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員。","接著請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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你看我對他就好我連答案就給他秀在電腦上給你偷看你知道嗎那我的意思就是說其實本席一直認為每一個人成長背景不同像我來自於屏東的鄉下我家我以前出門我家有個小店以前做刑犯都去打酒頭"},{"start":486.139,"end":501.656,"text":"時代改變了,你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎?過去的強制工作,哪是要讓它復歸社會?以前的強制工作,因為時代的不同,它是在改造你的思想。現在誰敢改造誰的思想?"},{"start":504.096,"end":506.638,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":527.31,"end":543.241,"text":"我們確實還有精進的地方你說你自營作業的部分我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間你矯正署也去推展了你所謂的一監所一特色比如說你台中女子監獄你就經典巧克力我們屏東監獄也做有名的或頂新醬油金門的頂新養生面確實帶來更高的一個收入那佔總體收容人比例6%也只有6%而已"},{"start":552.907,"end":573.942,"text":"那間外作業的比例因為你壽星人需要外溢監的一個資格需要配合累進廚藝等級更高的狀況之下你那個人數更少了人數更少了所以本席要請教部長跟署長就是說不管你是委託或者自營或者間外的一個作業你關於作業基金的部分你們到底有改善方案嗎?"},{"start":576.942,"end":598.047,"text":"報告委員委託的部分我們會配合直訊勞委會勞發署進來開相關的會議因為他們對廠商比較了解盡量朝著對受請人有利的部分來做一些意向還有委託的部分我們會"},{"start":600.328,"end":601.708,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":622.901,"end":624.122,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":640.111,"end":640.671,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":656.277,"end":674.304,"text":"我今天直接問你,就是說矯正署署長很少有機會在國會裡面這麼完整的一個做一個陳述,因為國會裡面也不太管這一些。我接下來進入深水區,就是說在去年在修法的外間條例的時候,本席是一路反對,因為我認為那是一種民粹,那是一種民粹,就是說我們去看看外間的一個改變,"},{"start":684.209,"end":692.093,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":711.414,"end":738.402,"text":"立法院會有壓力這合理很正常尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的一個需求但是呢我想來請教部長跟署長就是說萬一人家一個定位你去把它做一個回想從到去年2023年之前不管是哪一黨哪一個政黨在執政其實它都是進步的"},{"start":739.102,"end":742.425,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":765.66,"end":775.773,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":780.61,"end":807.275,"text":"跟委員做簡單說明,去年8月份我們新條例實施,大概我們有臨險4次。臨險4次裡面,新條例到外遇監這些受刑人從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是說他緩加探視沒有回來監獄報到。所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。"},{"start":808.095,"end":811.577,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":830.81,"end":835.994,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":854.608,"end":859.533,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":871.886,"end":872.686,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":897.521,"end":925.887,"text":"我告訴部長跟署長我去看到了台中女子監獄的一個外議監的分間我看那個林美玲她在2006年的訪談十位受信人裡面她也去認為說跟外界的溝通管道變多那我去另外2010年的研究裡面對外議監的修建農業發展創新並提供受信人的處遇北中南東外議監我的孟維德我也去拜讀了這是今年最新的"},{"start":927.047,"end":946.001,"text":"對這一些訪談的人你就都認為啊對於整個復歸社會是具備有成效的啦也就是說怎麼樣讓壽星人重新再回歸到這個社會啊今天我所提出這樣的一個修法我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述我非常一貫我非常一貫我就認為他"},{"start":948.939,"end":969.527,"text":"我們把立法院在整個消極條件我們去犯罪的類型我們去設定以後這個部分我們沒有去變動你最後的一個臨選裡面還是在你行政部門在你法務部積極條件這個部分確實啊我今天看到各黨提出這樣的一個修法是好好的來值得討論修正的一個必要以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1079,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時57分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：及矯正署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，有幾個問題來請教，第一個，法務部跟別的單位比較不太一樣，你們在立法院裡面接受國會議員質詢的時候，面向會有所不同，所以我剛才看你跟黃國昌這樣一句來、一句去，那是對的！不是他跟你說什麼之後你就靜悄悄，國會議員在這個地方講、每一個人在質詢，他有他訴求的對象，可是站在法務部立場的話，你確實是應該把事情講清楚。但本席今天要特別提出問題來就教，關於受刑人所有權利的累進處遇，請教矯正署，這個地方到底有沒有研議改善的措施？本席從進到立法院這4屆裡面，各個委員會我都儘量去，但是來到司法及法制這麼無聊的委員會裡面，我反而會對於很多學者專家提出的看法比較有機會去做研讀。譬如整個法治觀念的改變、整個社會氛圍的改變，常常一走就是幾十年的路，從2001年大法官會議第528號解釋，當初去講強制工作的部分，它認為是合憲的，但是走了20年以後，到2021年釋字第812號又認為刑法第九十條，針對有犯罪習性的人或因遊蕩、懶惰成性而犯罪，先進去勞動處所強制工作的這個部分，它提出批判，甚至認為違憲。也就是大法官在20年以後，觀念也會去做一個改變，這個就是整個社會裡面對於整個法治，大家會來做一個反省。","本席想就教兩位的是，我們司法改革國是會議裡面一直有這樣的一個討論，從2018年開始去做相關的研究，到今年的2月16號矯正署還有研商的一堆會議裡面，在今天要提出質詢以前，我都一一拜讀了。這些年來實務界跟學術界也在討論這樣的一個命題，受刑人剛入監的時候，接見跟發信次數受到嚴格的限制，那很有趣喔！署長，這個你比較厲害，請署長上來。被抓去關的受到嚴格的限制，可是他寫的信、發信的次數是最多的，反而等他關了好幾年，逐漸取得累進的分數以後，開始可以跟社會有更多接觸的時候，但他跟外界的聯繫變生疏了，這樣的一個作法到底可不可以達到教化跟悔改的目的？這個其實都有討論的餘地。","我們如果從一系列相關受刑人的大法官解釋跟憲法法庭的判決裡面，我們可以知道觀念就改變了，從釋字第755號（訴訟權）、釋字第756號（通信權），到釋字第812號（強制工作），在在都顯示受刑人的基本權保障逐漸被受到重視。可是當一個社會案件發生以後，你們專業的觀念全部又扭曲、又扭轉啊！我們受到社會當下的氛圍影響太大，可是司法這個部分，你們不能像我們在立法院這樣，立法院我們有時候會發瘋，你知道嗎？你要有聲量啊！你要讓選民聽了會爽啊！所以大家每一個人著墨的焦點不同。你們要保持冷靜啊！你們那個偵查不公開，部長，我也罵過你好幾次，但是有一些你們都錯了，你們也是冤枉啊！譬如一個案件有人來檢舉，檢舉之後，我又不是檢察官，我當然把資料轉給你們就好了，偵辦權在你們的手上啊！可是常常一個案件當事人會來向司法機關檢舉，他也會向媒體投訴，所以常常偵查不公開的，就奇怪了，怎麼偵查全部都揭露啦！有時候哪是你們揭露的，是媒體懂得比你們還多啊！有時候你們辦案的方向還是媒體跟你們提醒，掌握的資料比你都還要多啊！所以很多案件到底是誰去洩漏偵查中的秘密啊？有時候都很難論斷，但確實如果一個偵辦中的案件，在偵辦當中好像在大放送，這個也都不宜啦！","我回到本題，我去看看隔壁的日本，他們早在1964年就認為拘禁者處遇具有最低基準的權利，而且他們逐步在廢除累進處遇，到2006年實質上更改為限制緩和，也就是分了很多級，另外還有優遇處遇來評斷可不可以超過基本生活之外的享受，這個跟臺灣差別太大，臺灣沒有辦法，我們沒有這樣一個的進步概念，我們也認為這樣子的話，好像受刑人到監獄裡面是過得非常爽。所以我想就教的是，法務部目前到底有沒有研議替代處遇的方案？就教署長。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，累進處遇是由嚴而寬，委員提到一個人被收容進監所，剛開始有一些接見或是通訊，這對囚情安定是有幫助的，確實是這樣。我們的累進處遇是在民國31年訂定的，有一些比較不符合現代的潮流，我們現在也在研擬要把累進處遇廢除掉，然後相關可以用的條文部分，在監獄行刑法做一個專章的規定，這個部分我們也委託各大學去做研究，長期是朝廢除累進處遇來做一個計畫。委員提到日本這個部分，我研究過，日本是採取考察制，我們是責任分數制，不一樣，但是日本也有聲音出來，就是考察制是由場舍主管負責，他們的專業程度是不是可以很公正無私的考察？這也是一個聲音，所以我們改為考察制也要審慎，要公正客觀，經得起社會的檢視，這個部分……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你看我對你多好，我連答案都幫你秀在電腦上讓你偷看，你知不知道？我的意思是，其實本席一直認為每一個人的成長背景不同，像我來自於屏東的鄉下，我以前出門，我們那邊有個砂石場，以前重刑犯都去那邊擔石頭，但時代改變了，你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎？過去的強制工作哪是要讓他復歸社會，以前的強制工作，因為時代的不同，他是在改造你的思想，現在誰敢改造誰的思想？尤其從過去威權的統治，社會是不斷地把對思想的禁錮慢慢去做解放，當然這個受刑人不可能享有跟一般社會大眾同樣的待遇，他犯了罪，當然要為他的犯罪行為做一個付出。","可是我們研究了這麼多，我們確實還有精進的地方，你說自營作業的部分，我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間，矯正署也去推展所謂的一監所一特色，比如臺中女子監獄是經典巧克力；而屏東監獄也很有名，是鼎新醬油；金門是鼎金養生麵，確實帶來更高的收入，占總體收容人比例的6%，也只有6%而已。監外作業的比例，因為受刑人需要外役監的資格，需要配合累進處遇等級更高的狀況之下，人數更少了。所以本席要請教部長跟署長，不管是委託或自營，或者監外的作業，關於作業基金的部分，你們到底有沒有改善方案？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，委託的部分，我們會配合勞發署進來開相關的會議，因為他們對廠商比較了解，儘量朝著對受刑人有利的部分來做。還有委託的部分，我們會找優良的廠商，比較有技訓性質的，可以培養一技之長。至於自營作業，我們有矯正商城的改進，可以多元管道的付款還有行銷，這個部分我們都在加強中。最後，自主監外作業，結合企業互利共生這個部分，我們會結合優良的廠商，然後讓受刑人能夠三贏，就是他可以在執刑中有大概八、九千塊的收入，可以把這些錢寄回去給家裡做貼補之用，然後給社會覺得他在這邊不是白關的，對於他的處遇、對於矯正機關有正面的印象。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我今天故意問你的，就是矯正署署長很少有機會在國會裡面做這麼完整的陳述，因為國會裡面也不太管這一些。接下來進入深水區，就是說，去年在修外役監條例的時候，本席是一路反對，因為我認為那是一種民粹，那是一種民粹！我們去看看外役監的改變，剛開始是補充監獄不足的功能，後來慢慢發現它不能只是一種監獄，應該給收容人更多接觸外界的機會，因此慢慢演變成監外作業的模式，讓他們可以早日跟企業一般，雖然不能達到跟上班族相同的程度，但是是把外役監視為一個中間處遇的機構。沒辦法，社會如果發生一個比較重大的案件的話，立法院會有壓力，這合理，很正常，尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的需求。但是我請教部長跟署長，外役監這樣的定位，你去回想，2023年之前，不管是哪一個政黨在執政，其實都是進步的，每一個修外役監相關法規的想法裡面，都是越來越寬鬆，因為外役監本質上是監獄，可是服役方式跟一般監獄不同，一般監獄重點是在矯治，外役監更多的是在跟社會的接軌。可是發生一件事之後，大家都說外役監很爽，好像是天堂，好像是特權階級才可以去的，是真的嗎？對消極資格，我們做一個限定，最後的核准權還是在於你們法務部，所以署長，就你們現在去遴選的人，就外役監的狀況，簡單地說明。"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員簡單說明，去年8月份新條例實施，我們遴選四次裡面，依新條例到外役監的這些受刑人，從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是返家探視而沒有回來監獄報到的情況，所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。但是就像委員所講的，外役監是一個中間處遇制度，是一個受刑人復歸到社會前的一個過渡時期，讓他慢慢接觸社會，不會在出了社會以後，像有的人講的，看到紅綠燈不曉得怎麼走。我相信我們會做相關的事前篩選，以及程序中有一些變化的因子，比如說太太跟他離婚了，或是他至親的親人過世了，我們會暫時讓他不要返家探視，減少社會的不安，維護社會的安全。但是我們還是要強調，這個制度是好的制度，應該要保留，所以希望在他們復歸社會上對受刑人有利跟兼顧社會安全，我們要做一個衡平的拿捏。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，這不是保留的問題，是你怎麼樣去做一個精進的問題。講的好像是沒有保留的話，就回到過去，那嚇死人啦，我幫你講比較快，從2011年到2020年，10年之間，外役監受刑人全部1萬1,245個人，近10年來，返家探視未歸的或者是擅離作業處所的，有39個，一萬多人中只有39個。我這一篇質詢裡面，我告訴部長跟署長，我在看什麼，你知道嗎？我就看到臺中女子監獄一個外役監的分監，林美玲在2006年訪談10位受刑人，他也認為這些人跟外界的溝通管道變多。另外，2010年的研究裡面，對外役監的休閒農業發展與創新，並提供受刑人處遇的改善，北、中、南、東的外役監，我也拜讀了孟維德的研究，這是今年最新的，對這一些人訪談以後，都認為外役監對於他們復歸社會是具備成效的，也就是說，怎麼樣讓受刑人重新再回歸到這個社會。今天我提出這樣的一個修法，我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述？我非常一貫，我非常一貫，我就認為立法院在整個消極條件上針對犯罪的類型去設定以後，這個部分我們沒有去變動，最後的遴選還是在行政部門，還是在法務部。至於積極條件這個部分，我在今天看到各黨提出的修法，確實值得好好討論修正的必要。以上，謝謝。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝委員"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：好，謝謝莊委員。","下一位是沈發惠委員，請沈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"158237","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158237","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3777787365654675f3c1a3e37ce501a0ed4c8b3bbbcd3c6b37f8ca2f1dc4f42b17cb99a06a4423b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:45:59 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09:57:32","影片長度":"00:11:33","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支部分。\n四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪被害人保護協會114年度預算書案。\n五、併案審查\n（一）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答；預算提案於12月24日中午12時截止收件】\n【12月18日及19日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-19","start_time":"2024-12-19T09:45:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T09:57:32+08:00","duration":693,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":7.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.485343750000002,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.31909375,"end":20.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.68971875,"end":24.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.68096875,"end":61.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.50659375,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.97471875000001,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.27159375000001,"end":158.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.14534375000002,"end":163.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.80721875,"end":162.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.38096875000002,"end":163.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.60034375,"end":172.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.89034375,"end":172.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.84784375,"end":172.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.86471875,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.91534375,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.03346875,"end":191.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.12346875,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.14034375,"end":191.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.27096875,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.28784375,"end":226.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.71284375000002,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.97409375,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.02971875000003,"end":305.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.16471875,"end":305.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.18159375000005,"end":305.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.21534375000005,"end":305.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.28284375000004,"end":323.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.44034375,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.14909375,"end":324.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.16596875000005,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.32784375,"end":341.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.73284375000003,"end":342.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.03034375000004,"end":373.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.50846875,"end":378.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.75659375000004,"end":383.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.90346875,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.97159375,"end":421.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.06659375000004,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.84284375000004,"end":420.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.91034375000004,"end":420.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.96096875,"end":421.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.88471875000005,"end":422.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.45846875,"end":426.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.54659375,"end":433.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.81971875000005,"end":435.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.92909375000005,"end":448.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.34909375,"end":453.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.37784375,"end":458.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.23346875000004,"end":468.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.44721875000005,"end":468.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.54846875000004,"end":468.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.73409375000006,"end":468.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.03784375000004,"end":544.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.44784375,"end":545.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.5278437500001,"end":568.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.83659375,"end":582.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.0790937500001,"end":593.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.0478437500001,"end":600.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.79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"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。簡單來說，我們投入這麼多經費，逐年來看，整個成效應該都有達到預期……"],["鄭部長銘謙：穩定！穩定下來、有降低的趨勢。"],["陳委員俊宇：法務部還有所屬機關在114年度對於第三期反毒策略所編列的預算大約是6.6億左右，比第二期的113年還增加一千多萬，我想請教部長，這個預算提升是出於工作項目增加還是有其他的原因？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們做第三期是與時俱進，關於現在費用增加，我們事實上就是阻斷供需、減少毒害；另外，針對毒品吸用人口我們也希望他復歸社會，不要一直再犯，所以我們在加強緩起訴的戒癮治療，希望讓施用毒品人口能夠復歸社會、抑制再犯、阻斷供需，以減少毒害。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。計畫當中所涉及的工作涵蓋多種面向，但我想就其中一個主要議題，對於新興毒品的迅速變化，我們在新的反毒策略中要如何即時因應？尤其現在新興毒品的樣態還有來源都非常多元，讓民眾和家長都非常擔心。法務部如何避免這些新興毒品流入市場、也避免它進入校園？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。就是因為怕毒品流入校園，所以我們對內壓制有安居緝毒專案跟校園青春專案，我們希望這些毒品能夠透過查緝來做對內、境內的壓制。當然我也有提到毒品來源很多，包括一些境外流進來的，所以我們就境外防堵方面，加強國際情資的合作、邊境攔截，包括我們加強郵包、漁船走私的查緝，也落實預警、監控及列管機制，所以這部分我們也做了列管物質跨國比較，及「毒品先驅原料預警平臺」來做即時預警。至於我們是不是對毒品再升級、再列為毒品做管制，也會隨時再做檢討。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們除了阻絕毒品之外，戒癮治療還有防止個案再犯也是工作計畫之一，現有編列觀護毒品助理員的員額是否充足？接下來是否還需要再增加人力？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在我們是大力來推動戒癮治療，希望他們能夠復歸社會，觀護人力目前有在增加，應該是64人，我們希望能夠越多越好。"],["陳委員俊宇：目前人力足夠嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然我們不能說足夠，我們就是儘量去把這部分人力……因為的確要做些，這些人力最主要是戒癮治療的專責人力，因此我們希望這些人力能夠再擴充。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們也期待第三期的新世代反毒策略能夠有更好的效果打擊毒品危害，比前面兩期計畫執行之後更加能夠接近無毒家園還有無毒校園的目標。","另外，我想和部長討論獄政面對的問題以及未來的政策，近年來臺灣監所超收和戒護比過高的問題一直都被檢討、拿出來討論，除了目前規劃中的114年度彰化看守所遷建計畫外，對於嚴重超收的中部以北監所，也希望透過硬體設備的提升改善來舒緩擁擠的狀況。我想請教部長，接下來是否還有其他研議中的擴建或遷建計畫要推動？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，這部分目前在興建的我們已經即將完工，我想可以達到一部分的紓解；至於有沒有新興的擴增建金額，我是不是請矯正署署長來回答？"],["陳委員俊宇：好，請署長。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，除了八德外役監的擴建跟彰化看守所的遷建之外，我們有增加臺北看守所及臺北女子看守所在司法園區的遷建，這些將來在北部地區或是中部地區可以紓解我們超收的人犯，以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。彰化看守所明年底可以完工使用嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們預定是明年底，這些進度有稍微落後一點點，但是落後不多，我們都有督導彰化看守所加緊、保持效率。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外，我關心監所基層同仁的工作權益，矯正署類似於移民署，不但具有較高的危險性、複雜性，也需要時刻面臨龐大的工作壓力，包括緊急戒護外醫還有戒護住院，甚至是深夜進行移監等日常的業務。上會期我曾經到宜蘭監獄考察，當時在署長報告的過程裡面也聽到基層同仁的心聲，期待能夠像內政部所屬工作人員的深夜危勞津貼以及調整危險加給；後來也在詢答的過程當中得知，法務部有責成矯正署準備相關文件和說明，對於提高待遇的依據以及每年所需的相關預算能夠先進行估算作業。我想請教，目前你們對於爭取深夜危勞津貼及專業加給調整的進度為何？是不是能夠得到人事總處，甚至是行政院方面的支持？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們部長非常重視深夜的加給，我們也報人總，人總有它的意見、要我們再研議，目前我們還會再補足一些相關的理由、再來爭取；至於委員提到的危險津貼，我們現在是分成直接跟間接，這個部分我們會就收容人的收容人數跟機關屬性的風險程度為風險分級的概念，來盡力爭取人總能夠同意我們相關的危險津貼加給。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。那有沒有預期調整的幅度及可完成的期程？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，危險津貼還在研議中；至於深夜加給100元這個部分，我們會儘快再來報行政院。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。誠如前面所說，在監所工作的這些同仁平常都要面臨這種高風險、高壓力的環境，同時監所因為它的特殊性及隱蔽性也屬於比較封閉的職場環境，對於同仁的身心健康狀況，甚至是職場霸凌的情形，以外界來看，我們比較難得知。這部分我們是不是也應該設置充分的協助、支援和申訴管道讓同仁可以使用？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員對我們矯正機關同仁的辛苦跟危險進行關心，的確矯正署跟所屬各機關有訂定一個各機關員工協助方案的實施計畫，另外心理諮商部分，是委由外部專業機構辦理，我想這部分可以幫助我們同仁，並營造一個友善環境的關懷機制。的確我們矯正署同仁非常辛苦，有些工作環境也是具有相當的危險，這部分很謝謝委員的關心。"],["陳委員俊宇：這部分我們再請部長、署長多加重視，也為我們辛苦的基層同仁爭取相關的權益，以保障他們相關的工作安全，以上，謝謝部長跟署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"158236","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158236","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3777787365654675e5f021ca5103f6c053481301b577a5e537f8ca2f1dc4f42b0ad873e55dcd76e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:31:52 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這樣好慘捏保本穩賺這個東西"},{"start":357.226,"end":379.555,"text":"現在的話就是說跟我們報告就是我們現在確實我們台灣現在已經跟他講跟Vespa有關是因為現在我們真的有這樣的一個比如說交易平台也有這些轉換商這些我們這些我們所謂的虛擬資產服務業者現在正在經營我們就算我們還是可以在買賣這些幣有買賣以後呢他就衍生出很多的比如說他的衍生出的一些金融行為像借貸"},{"start":380.795,"end":405.372,"text":"這個就是其中的一個那就是批土批啊也不是批土就等於說在那個某種程度是這個意思啊怎麼不是呢請問他到底你們管不管這個到底管不管現在我們的交易的部分我們現在是你看到這個現象沒有這個是很普遍在那個對然後你不管我們現在是因為他整個交易我們是有納管的"},{"start":407.864,"end":412.07,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案"},{"start":427.954,"end":446.67,"text":"這個穩賺不賠的利率耶雖然短時間不高4.5有的高一點點5.5還要更高的啊這個東西很危險的這個東西他就跟供需有關我跟委員報告就是我們現在明年6月我們在我們現在正在嚴定這個虛擬財產管理專法的部分我們就會把define的部分呢會把它規範進去"},{"start":448.462,"end":475.515,"text":"所以你們要管這個是未來一定是變成是一定是必然我們看國際的趨勢就是說他會衍生出來一些交易那你管的方式就是讓他基本上他是合法的是不是我們通常合法的前提就是你要合規啊就是前面有一些規矩他合不合規請問他合不合規有些規矩啊我們要定出來才合規那如果合規的話第三方支付比如說這某一個平台"},{"start":477.233,"end":496.791,"text":"我買東西我放一萬塊在哪裡我用了兩千買東西剩八千八千他拿去投資他給我固定的利率4%可以嗎這個你說不行啦第三萬支付過去你就說不行這個就逼逼託你就可以了這奇怪的咧"},{"start":498.752,"end":526.058,"text":"我沒有說可以我只是說我們未來的專法的時候因為這個是全世界在演化中的東西我們在專法的時候我們會把未來的像比如說這所有的虛擬資產的相關的那個課題考慮進來我想這部分什麼時候可以出來啦這個專法什麼時候出來我們現在草案正在討論中什麼時候出來我們預期是1月的時候會開始公聽然後6月的時候我們會送進行政院6月送進行政院關於關於什麼"},{"start":526.879,"end":531.372,"text":"關於所謂的虛擬資產服務以及那個投資人保護的專法"},{"start":533.74,"end":559.973,"text":"虛擬資產的交易吧有沒有交易當然交易是其中一部分交易還有它的機構管理機構管理消費者保護消費者保護應該是交易人保護這個1月份開始公定會6月份送到行政院我們的就等於說那你希望行政院什麼時候可以出來這我沒辦法希望我當然希望假設我們送過去的話還有社會的共識第三方支付勒還是不行"},{"start":561.414,"end":576.994,"text":"因為現在第三方支付是速發部在主管的業務啊所以你不管不是不管就是我們管的是我們自己的彭主委你要注意喔全台灣人民不管什麼第三方支付不管這個圓的邊的大家只要看到錢啊錢啊"},{"start":578.476,"end":584.261,"text":"在交易啊 大家認為你要管喔這也是我們要特別說明你要管啊 錢 只要錢 你想啥 你要管啊這裡要特別說明了 不是所有錢都是歸金管會我是告訴你 老百姓都認為來來來 第三個我們看一個 你們最近公佈一個東西好奇怪喔全台灣人的人均存款欸"},{"start":601.432,"end":603.033,"text":"臺北市存款925萬台北市的一個人"},{"start":613.737,"end":615.898,"text":"如果夫妻兩個人就1800然後第二名是新竹市518萬第三名是嘉義市249萬然後第四名在台中市213萬"},{"start":632.256,"end":648.282,"text":"這宿舍到底是怎麼統計的有沒有包括外幣存款臺北市這個如果大家聽的話大家很挫折了我不知道這一座各位你們臺北市的人存款一個人喔如果你家裡四個人的話你就要3600萬喔你就要快4000萬喔喔 這個東西這你統計是你統計嗎 今晚會統計嗎"},{"start":659.925,"end":672.752,"text":"委員提到就是說我們下次如果有類似的數字我們可以公佈各式各樣的數據那這樣會比較容易不用導致這樣的一個比如說解讀上面的困擾不是 我就問你有沒有包括外幣存款 有沒有"},{"start":673.9,"end":688.989,"text":"這我要回去瞭解一下啊你不要去按哪一位現在可以馬上瞭解嗎那我們知道一下我們瞭解完馬上跟委員報告你們為什麼不用中位數呢我們就跟郭泰民平均去跟張作某平均這個沒有道理啊"},{"start":690.305,"end":693.506,"text":"對不對我跟張忠偉平均一個人900多萬臺北市請問各位大家在看這個直播臺北市民平均一個人的存款現金存款喔現金喔925萬喔我不知道我們主席議員有沒有這麼多喔925萬喔一個人喔"},{"start":715.173,"end":721.497,"text":"一個人平均在銀行裡面喔銀行局要不要講一下這書是怎麼來的啊你們公佈的欸我不知道為什麼不用中位數啊來講一下為什麼不用中位數啊"},{"start":731.718,"end":753.961,"text":"沒有沒有我想我們查證一下啦今天就是假設說未來假設真的是我們在出示這些數據的時候確實有不同的參數有不同的含義啦我想這部分我們假設我覺得應該是莊惠素啦因為台北市大老闆太多了啦郭台銘一年的股不只或是張忠謀他們大老闆每年的股利都幾十億元平均"},{"start":755.422,"end":756.583,"text":"因為談到網營啊也是你們想想的政績之一啊"},{"start":777.932,"end":805.401,"text":"每一次最高五萬每天最高十萬每月最高二十萬可是你們有一個辦法喔這個辦法就是根據安控基準第八條第二款第四目第四小目跟第五小目說一定的話可以把二十萬提高但是但是銀行都告訴因為這是有人來跟我告狀的"},{"start":806.957,"end":809.778,"text":"報告委員沒有這個時間上面的限制如果要提高的話是認證的方式要提高平均多久時間"},{"start":837.569,"end":854.864,"text":"這個應該 如果你約定了之後因為現在有一些防詐的議題所以大概是兩天啦兩天喔對 兩天才能申請來跟我高中的客戶說他要提高為25萬對方告訴他我不要講那些銀行的我都可以跟你講銀行的不要講啦他說要一年"},{"start":858.647,"end":860.268,"text":"我比較在意那個臺北市居然一個人平均有900多萬阿土西兩個人1800 怕死啦 這裡面可能只有賴慧營有"},{"start":886.892,"end":887.454,"text":"賴委員、賴委員還有賴總統謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":256,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時31分）謝謝主席，有請金管會的彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：您早。我想每一個委員都很關心，昨天明明美國是降息的，一般來講，降息股市是正面反應，結果它暴跌了一千多點，你的專業跟你的資訊我想是比較多，能不能告訴我們主要的原因到底是什麼？講一個原因就好了，不用講很多，一個主要的原因是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才有提到，當然股市是很敏感啦，本來預期我們的降息速度會快一點，但是這樣的一個降息，大家預期會放緩，我是看到這樣的，當然有很多原因，比如說包括未來川普政策的不確定性，還有剛剛吳委員講的，年底的這些作帳，逼近了聖誕節，很多問題都是很複雜的。"],["賴委員士葆：你講聖誕節，難道這些投資人都放假去了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說到年底的時候，他們就會開始……"],["賴委員士葆：開始放假？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這當然也是一個說法啦！我想股市是非常敏感的，就像我們今天看，其實也不是只有一個地方反應，有些地方也是有不同的反應。"],["賴委員士葆：有一種講法說其實這次降一碼，市場預期就是一碼，跟市場預期沒有什麼不一樣啊！就是一碼啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是預期會慢。"],["賴委員士葆：但是大家會看到明年，有人提一個東西叫點陣圖，你知道嗎？從點陣圖看出來，按照這樣來講，未來應該是要降四碼，結果變成只降兩碼。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是會放緩。"],["賴委員士葆：這個你同意不同意？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然是很多種說法啦！"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有一種說法就是本來預期應該會快一點，但是未來到明年大概也是會比較放緩，尤其未來，像我們上次針對美國未來政策在報告的時候也有說，雖然這樣預期，但是未來以他很多政策按照媒體這樣講的話，比如關稅拉高、通膨增加，這時候說要降息就可能是有點困難，也就是說，很多原因混雜在一起。"],["賴委員士葆：CPI啦，美國的通膨其實是嚴重的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員士葆：到現在為止，尤其加上大家看到川普未來加關稅，川普講過一句話，他說他最愛的一個字就是tariff──關稅，他最愛關稅，他跟人家談的交易密碼就是關稅。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員士葆：當然也不排除市場人士……華爾街都是支持川普的嘛！大家都知道嘛！對不對？做球給川普啊！現在不能漲太高，開始壓一壓，等到川普一來就一直漲，大家都預估川普上來，其實股市會漲的，這個你同意嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這也是一種說法，很多種說法啦！我想華爾街本來就是一個有買、有賣，反正這個是一個市場，我想金管會……"],["賴委員士葆：華爾街這一次挺川普是對的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然外界是說因為未來川普會鬆綁金融業的一些限制。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以大家預期還有對很多產業……"],["賴委員士葆：所以等於是大家來看的話，美股在川普上臺之後應該是漲勢可期啊！可不可以這樣講？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個只是一種說法，我覺得……"],["賴委員士葆：你同意不同意嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：資本市場最難的就是無法預期。"],["賴委員士葆：另外一種講法是資金最近因為比特幣拚命衝新高，往加密貨幣跑，這個也是原因之一。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想如果從整個交易量來看、整個資本市場來看的話，現在交易量當然還是一個相對比較低的，還是個位數，當然以它的速度來看，確實引人矚目，比如說現在往虛擬資產方向移動的速度確實是……因為它基期比較低，但是從一個整體來看，它還是一個比較低的水位。"],["賴委員士葆：而且越來越多的商品買賣慢慢開始用加密貨幣了，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們也有觀察到這樣一個發展。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們來看，這個跟你有關係，現在有幣託，債權很搶手，這裡面來講等於用USDT（泰達幣）……"],["彭主任委員金隆：泰達幣，USDT──泰達幣。"],["賴委員士葆：基本上就等於對美元是1比1。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，穩定幣。"],["賴委員士葆：差不多是這樣。結果變成用泰達幣給他，然後比如說約定一個月內，或者是90天，給你4.5%，或者是120天給你5.5%，甚至於更高，這個你們管不管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是所謂DeFi的部分，如果說是一個在虛擬世界可以交易的對象，自然有人欠、有人要還，就像股票有借券那個概念是一樣的，所以說……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，這管不管啦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，我們的交易……"],["賴委員士葆：你們管不管？請問。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在的交易是按照我們VASP的部分，我們在DeFi的部分現在有……"],["賴委員士葆：不要跟我講VASP，那個是防洗錢的，跟這個關係不大，現在來講的話，因為它推出的……我的表沒有秀出來，大家google一下就可以看得到，它是保本穩賺，就是你只要把錢給它，比如說45天，或者是50天、60天，它就給你4.5%，喔，很好賺耶！保本穩賺！這個東西……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我跟委員報告，確實我們臺灣現在已經……剛剛講跟VASP有關是因為現在我們真的有這樣一個交易平臺，也有這些轉換商，就是所謂虛擬資產服務業者，現在正在經營，我們還是可以買賣這些幣，有買賣以後就衍生出一些金融行為，像借貸就是其中的一個。"],["賴委員士葆：那就是P2P啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不是P2P，等於說在……"],["賴委員士葆：某種程度是這個意思啊，怎麼不是呢？請問到底你們管不管？這個到底管不管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在交易的部分，我們現在是……"],["賴委員士葆：你看到這個現象沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是很普遍在……"],["賴委員士葆：對。那你不管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在它整個交易，我們是有納管的。"],["賴委員士葆：這個已經快接近吸金了喔！這個等於跟幾十年前的鴻源吸金很類似喔！我只要換成USDT給他，他就給我穩賺不賠的利率，雖然短時間不高，4.5%，有的高一點就有5.5%，還有更高的啊！這個東西很危險耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：它就跟供需有關，我跟委員報告，我們現在正在研訂虛擬財產管理專法的部分，我們就會把DeFi的部分規範進去。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你們要管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個未來一定是變成是必然的，我們看國際的趨勢就是它會衍生出一些交易。"],["賴委員士葆：那你管的方式就是讓它基本上是合法的，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們通常合法的前提就是你要合規，就是前面有一些規定……"],["賴委員士葆：請問它合不合規？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有些規矩我們要訂出來才……"],["賴委員士葆：如果合規的話，像第三方支付，比如說某一個平臺，我買東西，我放1萬塊在那裡，我用了2,000買東西，剩8,000，8,000被它拿去投資，它給我固定的利率4%，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在當然是……"],["賴委員士葆：這個你說不行啊，第三方支付過去，你就說不行，幣託就可以？很奇怪耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，我沒有說可以，我的意思是說我們未來訂定專法的時候，因為這是全世界在演化中的東西，我們在專法的時候，我們會把未來所有虛擬資產相關的課題考慮進來，我想這部分……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？專法什麼時候會出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：草案正在討論中。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們預期是1月的時候會開始公聽，然後6月的時候我們會送進行政院。"],["賴委員士葆：6月送進行政院，關於什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：關於所謂的虛擬資產服務以及投資人保護的專法。"],["賴委員士葆：虛擬資產的交易吧？有沒有交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然交易是其中一部分。"],["賴委員士葆：交易。"],["彭主任委員金隆：還有它的機構管理。"],["賴委員士葆：機構管理。"],["彭主任委員金隆：消費者保護。"],["賴委員士葆：消費者保護。"],["彭主任委員金隆：它是交易人保護。"],["賴委員士葆：1月份開始公聽會，6月份送到行政院……"],["彭主任委員金隆：就等於說……"],["賴委員士葆：那你希望行政院什麼時候可以出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我沒辦法希望，我當然希望，假設我們送過去的話，還有社會的共識……"],["賴委員士葆：第三方支付呢？還是不行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為現在第三方支付是數發部在主管的業務。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是不管，我們管的是我們自己的……"],["賴委員士葆：彭主委，你要注意喔，全國人民不管什麼第三方支付、不管圓的、扁的，大家只要看到錢在交易，大家就認為你要管喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們要特別說明的……"],["賴委員士葆：你要管啊，只要是錢，你就要管啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，這也要特別說明的，不是所有錢都是歸金管會。"],["賴委員士葆：我只是告訴你，老百姓都認為……","來，我們看一個你們最近公布的東西，好奇怪喔！全臺灣人的人均存款，喔，臺北市這麼有錢，我都不知道！臺北市平均一個人現金存款有925萬，臺北市一個人耶，如果夫妻兩個人就是1,800萬了；第二名是新竹市，518萬；第三名是嘉義市，249萬；第四名在臺中市，213萬。這個數字到底是怎麼統計的？有沒有包括外幣存款？臺北市這樣，大家一聽很挫折耶！我不知道在座各位，你們臺北市的人存款，一個人喔！如果你家裡有四個人的話，你就有3,600萬喔，將近4,000萬喔！喔，這個東西是你們金管會統計的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛剛……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼統計？怎麼統計？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員提到我們下次如果有類似的數字，我們可以公布各式各樣的數據，這樣會比較容易……不用導致比如解讀上面的困擾。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我就問你，有沒有包括外幣存款？有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我要回去了解一下……"],["賴委員士葆：哪一位現在可以馬上了解，讓我們知道一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們了解完，馬上跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：你們為什麼不用中位數呢？我們去跟郭台銘平均、去跟張忠謀平均，這個沒有道理啊，對不對？我跟張忠謀平均……"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員講各種的……"],["賴委員士葆：一個人九百多萬，請問各位，大家都在看這個直播，臺北市民平均一個人的現金存款925萬，我不知道主席玉珍有沒有這麼多，925萬喔！一個人喔！"],["主席：925塊。"],["賴委員士葆：一個人，平均在銀行裡面的存款。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們常常要……"],["賴委員士葆：銀行局要不要講一下？銀行局要不要講一下？這個數字怎麼來的啊？你們公布的耶！我不知道為什麼不用中位數？來，講一下，為什麼不用中位數？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們查證一下，未來我們在出示這些數據的時候，確實不同的參數有不同的涵義，這部分……"],["賴委員士葆：我覺得應該用中位數，因為臺北市大老闆太多了，郭台銘或者是張忠謀他們這些大老闆，每年的股利都有幾十億元，一平均……怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們需要一點點時間再查一下，再跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：3天內，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不用3天，我想不用3天。"],["賴委員士葆：好，1天好了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以、可以，沒問題。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，再看一下，很簡單，談到網銀，這也是你們小小的政績之一，每一次最高5萬、每天最高10萬、每月最高20萬。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：可是你們有一個辦法，就是根據安控基準第八條第二款第四目第四小目跟第五小目，約定的話可以把20萬提高，但是銀行都告訴我，因為這是有人來跟我告狀的，銀行說這個約定的話，要1年時間才能約定，review那個paper要1年才能夠review。"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該沒有這樣，我們約定都可以到銀行去約定。"],["賴委員士葆：這是網銀，我講的是網銀。銀行局長，你要不要講一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：請局長。"],["賴委員士葆：來，講一下。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，沒有時間上面的限制，如果要提高的話，是認證的方式要提高。"],["賴委員士葆：平均多久時間？"],["莊局長琇媛：這個應該如果你約定了之後……因為現在有一些防詐的議題，所以大概是2天。"],["賴委員士葆：2天喔？"],["莊局長琇媛：對，2天才能生效。"],["賴委員士葆：來跟我告狀的客戶說，他要提高為25萬，對方告訴他，我不要講是哪家銀行，我都可以跟你講是哪家銀行，不過公開不要講。對方告訴他要1年，1年啦！"],["莊局長琇媛：好，委員是不是私下再給我們資料，我們再去查？"],["賴委員士葆：可以，我私下把銀行給你，因為這是有人跟我告狀的，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。我想我們趕快去查證，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：我比較在意臺北市居然一個人平均有九百多萬存款，夫妻兩個人一千八百多萬，嚇死人！這裡面可能只有賴惠員委員有。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接著請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司（僅詢答）；三、審查中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管：\n（僅詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1140901_00002"}}},{"id":"158235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3777787365654675083d275bf97a603453481301b577a5e537f8ca2f1dc4f42b6cd2be41aab3cbef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:21:20 - 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因為我看到這個統計數字這個113年以來當然你剛剛說是一個逐漸老化的過程也很難用客觀的數字去評量說你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程但是總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層過去我們大概是抓70或是6560也有 65也有 對"},{"start":200.686,"end":212.956,"text":"那現在問題是我看到113年以來無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的那個比例都有在增高的局勢那金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢"},{"start":214.248,"end":231.872,"text":"我們有請那個評議中心也有做一些了解確實前面幾年有升高最近是比較平緩就是那個金融詐騙還有就是高齡的來申訴的部分主要申訴大概都是申訴哪一方面的內容這個應該說沒關係評議這邊也可以幫忙回答"},{"start":235.293,"end":261.695,"text":"文文我們去了解目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費貸償的部分信用卡部分也是一個重點還有保險的部分的一些信用卡消費的貸償是什麼意思他應該是說整個消費款項的話就是說他有可能會先付就是有些東西信用卡他會先給他一筆錢然後接下來的話就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡先繳信用卡的一個款項那後來就形成一些糾紛發生怎麼樣為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢"},{"start":264.323,"end":287.66,"text":"他本身的話應該因為信用卡的部分的話他們有就是我可以跟你報告一下因為信用卡的時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛對不對對但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司所以目前的話我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點因為他可能會先去付一筆錢然後再因為我自己也去那這樣子如果我先預繳錢給消費信用卡公司他會不會信用卡公司變成在接受存款啊"},{"start":290.174,"end":316.634,"text":"那是不是在經營銀行業?它不是吸收存款它是說比如說我今天可能要出國的話我可能會先繳一些錢就是可能交易的一個一角啦那一角的話後面就有一些糾紛在那這部分也有企平益中益在做一些處理啦那也跟委員報告事實上整個整個平穩在觀察說整個申訴案件那個比例確實有委員講的沒錯有提高啦但是跟分母也有點關係因為112年的時候因為那時候還有一點點防疫保障所以分母比較大那這塊我們會持續來做一個"},{"start":318.175,"end":335.141,"text":"我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念也是給主委參考第一個你們不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣的話只是給法院參考你可以再去法院搞我是來自法院的你那個評議會讓這個"},{"start":339.614,"end":362.91,"text":"法院可能會有一部分的影響另外一點就是你會讓相對的金融機構他就有恃無恐他覺得他平行中心就挺我那我要跟你說就一個消費者而言尤其是老年消費者而言他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力各方面的社會資歷上面明顯是不對等的"},{"start":363.649,"end":384.074,"text":"你的金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力什麼都高於消費者一大截所以人照理來講是要義強扶弱這樣才有公道那當然不是說我們就是可以閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管不是這樣"},{"start":385.339,"end":394.415,"text":"但是你一定要常常記得這個因為兩邊的身份是不相當的無論是哪一個位階都不相當所以你們在做這個評議的時候"},{"start":396.294,"end":417.352,"text":"我覺得這一點要是值得參考一定要把這個東西記在心裡再來就是我們希望說我以前一直提一個觀念但是到現在都一直沒有改不要拿這些金融機關的錢金融這些公司的錢他們該付的錢另外的去嘛不要直接拿他們錢來編你們的預算或是放到你們的基金裡面來"},{"start":419.233,"end":445.108,"text":"國家的總預算那麼大那個大水庫理論你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去你再從國家這邊拿錢來編預算來弄這個評議老是被人家講說你看你們就是拿人家這個金融機構的錢啊說你們的評議只是公正性會受到質疑吧我講的這樣子的概念當然是講了很多年但是都一直沒有完成可能是會計科目或怎麼樣的問題"},{"start":447.083,"end":457.679,"text":"如果你們願意這樣做我們願意挺你們啊我們何必為了那一兩億元然後去背一個這樣子的罵名呢背一個這樣子的懷疑呢這是不值得啦這個給你參考謝謝委員我剛剛簡單回應一下就是說"},{"start":462.386,"end":490.646,"text":"我在評議中心擔任過兩屆的董事一屆的評議委員我們的評議有個很重要的概念叫做公平合理原則的適用它會推翻很多法律上面的規定所以過去這個東西是它很重要的一個武器就是說法規雖然這樣規定我覺得不符合公平那公平合理它就可以做這件事情我想這個我們來落實就是每個人的經驗不太相同當然會來到我們立法委員的辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子可是我來我看到了有一些評議"},{"start":491.647,"end":495.191,"text":"就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗我看起來是不公道"},{"start":496.685,"end":522.195,"text":"所以我可能看到的都是因為採樣會偏頗今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意他就不會來了他就覺得他受到委屈才會到立法院辦公室來申訴但是我看到的幾個案件裡面我都就是沒有採取這樣的原則所以我今天才會來提醒主委來提醒這個評議這一邊要注意這個問題我以前在當法官的時候剛開始當法官的時候"},{"start":524.214,"end":546.575,"text":"陳靜遠說那種非常輕微的案件啊我講說這這麼輕微的案件這個有什麼好爭的啊這個就趕快給他處理結果當時我的神敗我的庭長就跟我講說對你一個法官來講這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件所以如果我很述述而且沒有去思慮很周圍的去處理"},{"start":547.703,"end":563.199,"text":"當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子的而不會覺得說就醫生啊看感冒大家都是一樣這個感冒這個流行性感冒你也感冒他也感冒就趕快3秒鐘5秒鐘就開個藥給你病人的感覺是生病的是我啊難過的是我啊"},{"start":564.059,"end":581.706,"text":"阿你怎麼為什麼我來看醫生你這3秒鐘5秒鐘就給我打發走了所以我覺得應該要抱持這樣子的觀念另外因為韓國的政局不穩韓幣短期內貶值我是覺得有點嚴重那當然這韓國人內政我們也沒辦法干預但是我們金管會這邊也要"},{"start":582.586,"end":604.924,"text":"對於這種如果鄰國本來跟我們是有在貿易上面有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家的這個貨幣如果有巨額的波動的時候是不是也應該要有以待之呢那當然尤其像比如說韓國跟我們這麼近很多這麼密切像韓國發生這件事情的時候我們都高度的警戒當時比如聽到他戒嚴他整個都非常的"},{"start":605.484,"end":616.531,"text":"那還好是他6個小時就結束是那慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題是那否則的話其實上這個對我們的影響我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注好謝謝你齁繼續加油齁謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳秉樂委員齁接下來我們請賴世鮑委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時21分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭金隆主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委早。我剛剛聽到你跟林委員的詢答，你剛剛有提到說可能是因為美國降息一碼不符合市場的預期，可是我最近這幾個月看到的大家都是預期要降息一碼，而且他們的那個叫什麼名字？"],["彭主任委員金隆：鮑爾。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，鮑爾，他這兩個月也是說就降息一碼，甚至一個月前還有人在討論說也有可能不降息，所以降息一碼，我個人是覺得應該是滿符合預期的，而且這個地方跟年底作帳我覺得應該有一些關係，因為美國人的會計年度是到國曆年嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：聖誕節。"],["吳委員秉叡：聖誕節嘛！那你想想看，本來降息應該是對股市有利的事情，當然你也可以把它講說就是因為降息不符合預期，應該多降一點，降不夠，所以大家失望性地拋出，我的看法是比較接近有可能是年末的作帳，在臺灣以及在整個東亞股市外資的撤出，聽起來金額很大啦，但是其實對它的投資總金額來講比例也是不大，但是那個應該也是作帳的需求啦，這是我的看法、想法給你參考看看。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以過去的狀況都是類似的，到了年底接近聖誕節的時候，都會出現一些這樣子的狀況。","再來要請教的是，最近我看到媒體報導，這當然不是跟金管會有直接相關，但老是提到老年人被詐騙的情況很嚴重，其實在黃主委時代，對於老年人的金融安全，他對各金融機構是有特別要求的，這部分你的作法是怎麼樣？你的想法是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得老年實際上不是一個特定的，它是一個漸進的過程，比如說初老，還有一些是末老，大概是這樣來看，當然比如說，尤其現在臺灣是高齡化社會，有些我們現在所謂的初老，比如說現在很多拿老人證、65歲的人，其實他非常非常正常，所以我覺得要有更細緻的作法。對於逐漸老化，尤其很多金融商品是很長期的，這部分我們就要考慮到不是購買當時，還有後面，比如說很多信託的商品就是來做這些事情，還有像保險也要考慮到這個問題，所以我覺得未來要營造一個所謂的金融友善，除了保護他以外，對於他的有些權益，我們可以做更細緻的規劃。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，因為我看到這個統計數字，113年以來，當然你剛才說是一個逐漸老化的過程，也很難用客觀的數字去評量你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程，但總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：過去我們大概是抓70或是65。"],["彭主任委員金隆：60也有，65也有、70……"],["吳委員秉叡：現在問題是我看到113年以來，無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的比例都有增高的趨勢，金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有請評議中心去做一些了解，確實前面幾年有升高，最近是比較平緩，就是金融詐騙還有高齡者來申訴的部分……"],["吳委員秉叡：主要申訴的大概都是哪一方面的內容？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個應該說……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，評議這邊也可以幫忙回答。"],["林處長志憲：委員，我們去了解，目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費代償的部分，信用卡的部分也是一個重點，還有保險的部分一些……"],["吳委員秉叡：信用卡消費代償是什麼意思？"],["林處長志憲：應該是說整個消費款項，他有可能會先付，就是有些東西，信用卡的部分，他會先給他一筆錢，然後接下來就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡，先繳信用卡的一個款項，後來就形成一些糾紛。"],["吳委員秉叡：為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢？"],["林處長志憲：他本身的話，因為信用卡的部分……委員，跟你報告一下，因為信用卡有時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛，對不對？"],["吳委員秉叡：對。"],["林處長志憲：但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司，所以目前我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點，因為他可能會先去付一筆錢，因為我自己……"],["吳委員秉叡：那這樣子的話，如果我先預繳錢給信用卡公司，信用卡公司會不會變成在接受存款？那是不是在經營銀行業？"],["林處長志憲：委員，他不是吸收存款，而是譬如說我今天要出國的話，我可能會先繳一些錢，就是可能交易的一個溢繳，那溢繳的話，後面就有一些糾紛在，這部分有請評議中心在做一些處理。也跟委員報告，事實上，整個評議委員在觀察整個申訴案件，確實委員講的沒錯，這個比例是有提高，但是跟分母也有點關係，因為112年那時候還有一點點防疫保單，所以分母比較大，這一塊我們會持續來做一個處理。"],["吳委員秉叡：我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念，也是給主委參考。第一個，你們不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣的話，只是給法院參考，你可以再去法院告，我是來自法院，你那個評議可能會讓法院有一部分的影響，另外一點，你會讓相對的金融機構就有恃無恐，它會覺得評議中心就挺我。我要跟你說，就一個消費者而言，尤其是老年消費者而言，他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力、各方面的社會資歷上面，明顯是不對等的，金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力，什麼東西都高於消費者一大截，所以照理來講是要抑強扶弱，這樣才有公道，當然不是我們就閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管，不是這樣，但是你一定要常常記得這個，因為兩邊的身分是不相當的，無論是哪一個位階都不相當，所以你們在做這個評議的時候，我覺得這一點是值得參考的，一定要把這個東西記在心裡。","再來就是我們希望，我以前一直提一個觀念，但是到現在都一直沒有改，不要拿這些金融機關的錢、這些金融公司的錢，他們該付的錢另外去處理嘛，不要直接拿他們的錢來編你們的預算，或是放到你們的基金裡面來，國家的總預算那麼大，那個大水庫理論，你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去，你再從國家這邊拿錢編預算來弄這個評議，不要老是被人家講，你看你們就是拿人家金融機構的錢，所以你們評議的公正性會受到質疑嘛，我講這樣的概念當然講了很多年，但是都一直沒有完成，可能是會計科目或是怎麼樣的問題，如果你們願意這樣做，我們願意挺你們啊，我們何必為了那1、2億元，然後去背一個這樣子的罵名、背一個這樣子的懷疑呢？這不值得啦！這個給你參考。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。我簡單回應一下，我在評議中心擔任過兩屆董事、一屆評議委員，我們的評議有一個很重要的概念，叫做公平合理原則的適用，他會推翻很多法律上面的規定，所以過去這個東西是他很重要的一個武器，就是說法規雖然這樣規定，若覺得不符合公平合理，他就可以做這件事情，我想這個我們來落實……"],["吳委員秉叡：每個人的經驗不太相同啦，當然會來到我們立法委員辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：可是我看到有一些評議，就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗來看，我看起來是不公道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我可能看到的都是……因為採樣會偏頗嘛，今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意了，他就不會來，他就是覺得他受到委屈，他才會到立法委員的辦公室來申訴，但是我看到的幾個案件裡面，就是沒有採取這樣的原則，所以我今天才會來提醒主委，提醒評議這一邊要注意這個問題。我以前在當法官的時候，剛開始當法官的時候，曾經有那種非常輕微的案件，我想說這麼輕微的案件，這個有什麼好爭的？這個就趕快給他處理，結果當時我的前輩、我的庭長就跟我說：對你一個法官來講，這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯，但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件，所以如果我很迅速而且沒有思慮很周延的去處理，當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子，而不會覺得像醫生看感冒，大家都是一樣，這個感冒、這個流行性感冒，你也感冒、他也感冒，就趕快3秒鐘、5秒鐘就開個藥給你。病人的感覺是生病的是我啊，難過的是我啊，為什麼我來看醫生，你3秒鐘、5秒鐘就給我打發走了？所以我覺得應該要抱持這樣子的觀念啦。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外，因為韓國的政局不穩，韓幣短期內貶值，我是覺得有點嚴重啦，當然這是韓國的內政，我們也沒辦法干預，但是我們金管會這邊也要對於這種，如果鄰國本來跟我們在貿易上是有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家，他們的貨幣如果有巨額波動的時候，是不是也應該要有以待之呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，尤其比如說韓國跟我們那麼近，很多這麼密切，像韓國發生這件事情的時候，我們都高度的警戒，當時比如說聽到他們戒嚴，整個都非常的……還好是6個小時就結束，慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題，否則的話，其實像這個對我們的影響，我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你，繼續加油，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 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rt":157.451,"end":180.632,"text":"暫買方金融商業累積全10個月減碼4935億元是去年一整年的9.4倍那全年應該會衝破5000例大關主委對於金融業減碼台股今年是去年將近10倍的這種狀況那個主委你有什麼看法"},{"start":181.795,"end":203.368,"text":"那個剛剛跟委員報告過其實剛才委員指出的不管是銀行保險或證券他們投入資本市場的投資目的跟投資的方法都不同我想比如說保險跟銀行跟證券就很大的不同那他們之間剛剛講的話他們的部位在過去而言他們都有自己的長期的部位的建置以及調節"},{"start":204.469,"end":205.83,"text":"會不會就是看壞未來台股後市的這個超量的正常交易"},{"start":221.701,"end":246.018,"text":"其實就我們長期觀察這個各個產業特別金融業他們對臺股的持股這是他們在整個投資組合上面一個非常重要的組合那其實看好看壞其實不是從這邊可以看得出來我想臺灣的整體經濟面還是不錯我們知道像今年我們所有總上市櫃他們的總營收將近逼近40兆"},{"start":247.099,"end":276.068,"text":"我想這個成長是同期的將近12%我想這也是支撐台股很重要的這個基礎主委因為股票賣得掉反過來是有人買那請問主委金融三頁大量減碼這個台股大盤指數卻還是繼續停留在就是高檔高點那請問你認為投資大眾應該要怎麼看明年台股整個後市的發展那個主委您什麼看法"},{"start":276.928,"end":295.503,"text":"那跟委員報告我想齁我不是為了證券分析師啊我們只是從整個資本市場的健全性來看那剛剛我們也關注金融業在比如說他的投資的安全性我想我對未來的未來的這個股市呢我們我們就是不做過過的這個預測就對了主委"},{"start":298.405,"end":307.294,"text":"金管會月初公布最新統計外資不只狂賣上市櫃的股票差不多2500億元更終止連續三個月淨匯入轉為淨匯出"},{"start":313.661,"end":336.116,"text":"那針對外資賣超台股並匯出的原因那個政局局副局長表示主要是受到美國總統大選不確定因素的影響那外資落袋為安再加上有一些資金的需求因此進行匯出的動作主委美國大選已經落幕而且台股大盤指數並沒有出現2022年底下殺4000多點"},{"start":341.66,"end":367.217,"text":"的這種狀況那請問你認為外資有沒有短期回補台股資金重新進匯入台灣的機會或是條件有沒有其實從短期而言我們比較不那麼在意我們從長期來看其實外資在台灣的持股占比一直維持一個很穩定當然他們的操作有他自己的目的我想我們對這種比如說幾個月這樣週期的波動我們比較只是密切關切"},{"start":368.098,"end":395.334,"text":"我從這邊看不出我們有什麼特別特別明顯的差別那個主委因為媒體有報導說金管會正在研擬換修保險法準備納入新興的議題那聚焦金融科技、永續金融和資本監理等三大項但目前尚未有修法的時程表我請問主委媒體報導金管會打算修法的內容是不是確定的"},{"start":396.695,"end":421.216,"text":"主要是我們保險法上次大修應該是民國91年的時候但是各位都知道我們現在我們保險法有兩大部分應該是保險契約法以及保險業法的部分我們過去的大修著重在保險業法的部分保險契約法其實本身還有很多需要被討論的地方我想過去在一二十年來學界有很多的考慮那過去都是一個個修所以我們這次希望有個結構性的修法"},{"start":421.696,"end":448.477,"text":"那另外有關業法的部分確實誠如剛剛那個委員所指示的就是包括我們現在金融環境的改變金融科技永續金融還有就是我們現在的資本監理制度都已經跟20年前有重大的不同所以我們覺得一定要修對就是我們要做結構性的修法因為這個那你有沒有時程啊修法有沒有時程我們預計一年的時間來收集各方面一件但是怎麼修其實上我們我們不預期一個時間我們希望這次能夠做結構性的所以說"},{"start":449.764,"end":456.61,"text":"是不是意味著保險法、修法你說一居一年那有沒有急迫性這個東西其實"},{"start":458.513,"end":484.65,"text":"那坦白講委員我們現在的保險法也在持續運作中但是我們的保險市場要持續的發展所以我們這個東西是做一個非常重要的基礎工程所以我們寧可把它修好也不急不急齁主委11月下旬的出席台灣這個保險法學會主辦第10屆兩岸保險法論壇曾提到結構性修法說不定是市場需要的"},{"start":485.791,"end":509.867,"text":"那並且將和保險局研究請問主委媒體報導保險法修法的內容是不是和你上個月在論壇後的陳述前後呼應是不是這樣子我想就是兩大部分過去我們保險法學者比較著重的是在保險契約法特別像比如說受益人、要保人還有就是一些相關利害關係人的關係的修改"},{"start":510.848,"end":526.474,"text":"還有就是我們契約上面財產保險以及相關很多的內容他們在過去在學理上跟國際上面的一些保險法學理有些不同但是除了這個以外我剛剛跟文報告還有很多是因為我們業法的部分很多都要隨著那個改變其實這兩次是一致的這樣齁"},{"start":527.794,"end":555.521,"text":"那未來保險法即將大翻修你認為會朝向你所說的結構性修法來推動嗎是的我想齁其實保險市場也是金融市場非常重要的產業那我們這部保險法如果遠瘦於是民國18年就開始訂定中間雖然經過幾個修正但是我覺得要隨著時間的改變而改變那個主委會不會只有將現行保險法的架構上來推出增減條文的版本是不是這樣子"},{"start":556.261,"end":565.995,"text":"其實我們現在保險法條文算是精簡才100多條我想像我們保險市場整個環境的改變業法的部分其實有很多需要被調整的地方"},{"start":567.454,"end":590.268,"text":"因為從第10屆保險法論壇媒體轉述你參加時所有的內容可以看出與會學者包括過去身為學者的你對現行保險法法規以及主管機關的看法與態度再加上你認為現在保險法修法都是應急式而緩應式的修法遇到什麼問題修什麼"},{"start":592.009,"end":618.889,"text":"比較容易故此失彼的很可惜那請問主委採取結構性修法是不是能夠完全避免再度出現應急式反射式反射式的這個修法的缺點那報委員我想當天會這樣講是因為有時候我們社會上有些突發的情形就要立刻來改變那是必然但是就是說這樣的改變常常會讓會可能考慮沒那麼周延所以我才會想說"},{"start":619.65,"end":619.79,"text":"主委啊"},{"start":636.019,"end":651.766,"text":"由於保險法修法涉及主管法規的機關那訂定保險契約的各方當事人那請問主委修法姿勢體大未來修法的方向你認為能夠重新喚起外商保險公司來台設立的意願嗎"},{"start":652.646,"end":678.613,"text":"我想這是很多元面向外商會不會來是看我們市場的發展當然我們如果做得很健全市場蓬勃發展自然容易吸引人家過來設對相關的因為你要是修不好的話變成會成為這些外商保險公司加速退出臺灣的一個催化劑會不會如果是不好的我們不會修啦對我們只會朝好的方向修好謝謝謝謝委員的指點謝謝好謝謝林德夫委員"},{"start":680.327,"end":680.669,"text":"接著我們請吳秉鈺委員,吳秉鈺,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":166,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時9分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭主委？"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["林委員德福：主委早。我請教因為美國聯準會降息1碼，美股大跌超過一千一百多點，請問你認為今天對臺股有沒有影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個影響，從昨天晚上的臺指期收盤就已經看到有一些徵候，今天早上我還來不及看今天的開盤……"],["林委員德福：還來不及看？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["林委員德福：因為我們一般都隨著美股在上下，依您來看，你認為美國降息對明年臺股是正面的訊號，還是負面的訊號？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我也是昨天綜合各個外電還有這些分析，本來我們在過去都會預期美國降息速度會快一些，但是因為這次的降息可能比較不符市場原本的預期。當然降息這件事情其實很難預測，就像從過去這一、兩年來，各種的預測都有，而站在金管會立場，我們各種情境都會納入考慮。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為臺股大盤或許站在高點，但是金融業賣臺股獲利了結也是事實，臺美關係息息相關，請問你認為法人賣臺股的作法，是不是已經有提前反映對臺股後市疑慮？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，個別金融業或是對他們投資的操作，我們都予以尊重，但是很多金融機構的投資，畢竟都是以財務性投資為主，自然調節是很正常，我想這部分有買就有賣，金管會站在制度上，我們不對他們這些作為做預期。"],["林委員德福：好。我請教主委，據金管會的統計2024年10月銀行繼續減碼臺股，到今天已連續四個月砍股，壽險業也大賣，壽險業賣了353億元，終結連兩買，僅券商站買方，金融三業前10個月累積減碼4,935億元，是去年一整年的9.4倍，全年應該會衝破5,000億大關。對於金融業減碼臺股，今年是去年將近10倍的這種狀況，主委有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛跟委員報告過，其實剛才委員指出的，不管是銀行、保險或證券，他們投入資本市場的投資目的跟投資方法都不同，我想比如說保險跟銀行跟證券就有很大的不同，他們之間……剛才講的話，他們的部位在過去而言，他們都有自己長期的部位建置以及調節，我想隨我們的基期墊高，本來這些調節，我們都認為說我們都尊重剛才各業的表現。"],["林委員德福：那我請問你，彭主委，會不會就是看壞未來臺股後勢超量的正常交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實如果就我們長期觀察各個產業，特別金融業他們對臺股的持股，這是他們在整個投資組合上面一個非常重要的組合，其實看好看壞不是從這邊可以看得出來，我想臺灣的整體經濟面還是不錯，我們知道像今年我們所有總上市櫃，他們的總營收逼近40兆，我想這個成長是同期的將近12%，我想這也是支撐臺股很重要的基礎。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！主委，因為股票賣得掉，反過來是有人買，請問主委，金融三業大量減碼臺股，大盤指數卻還是繼續停留在高檔、高點，請問你認為投資大眾應該要怎麼看明年臺股整個後勢的發展，主委你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我想我不是證券分析師，我們只是從整個資本市場的健全性來看，我們也關注金融業在比如說它的投資安全性，我想我對未來的股市，我們就是不做過多的預測。"],["林委員德福：不做預測就對了。主委，金管會月初公布最新統計，外資不只狂賣上市櫃的股票差不多2,500億元，更終止連續3個月淨匯入轉為淨匯出，針對外資賣超臺股並匯出的原因，證期局副局長表示主要是受到美國總統大選不確定因素的影響，外資落袋為安，再加上有一些資金的需求，因此進行匯出的動作。主委，美國大選已經落幕，而且臺股大盤指數並沒有出現2022年底下殺四千多點的這種狀況，請問你認為外資有沒有短期回補臺股資金、重新淨匯入臺灣的機會或是條件，有沒有？你認為。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實從短期而言，我們比較不那麼在意，我們從長期來看，其實外資在臺灣的持股占比一直維持很穩定，當然他們的操作有它自己的目的，我想我們對這種比如說幾個月這樣週期的波動，我們比較只是密切關切，我從這邊看不出我們有什麼特別特別明顯的差別。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為媒體有報導說金管會正在研擬翻修保險法，準備納入新興的議題，聚焦金融科技、永續金融和資本監理等三大項，但目前尚未有修法的時程表，我請問主委，媒體報導金管會打算修法的內容是不是確定的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，主要是我們保險法上一次大修應該是民國91年的時候，但是各位都知道我們保險法有兩大部分，一個是保險契約法以及保險業法的部分，我們過去的大修著重在保險業法的部分，保險契約法其實本身還有很多需要被討論的地方，我想過去在一、二十年來，學界有很多的考慮，過去都是一個個地修，所以我們這次希望有個結構性的修法。另外有關業法的部分，確實誠如剛剛委員所指示的，就是包括我們現在金融環境的改變、金融科技、永續金融還有就是我們現在的資本監理制度，都已經跟20年前有重大的不同，所以我們覺得……"],["林委員德福：一定要修。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是我們要做結構性的修法，因為這個我們就不預列……"],["林委員德福：那你有沒有時程？修法有沒有時程？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們預計1年的時間來蒐集各方面的意見，但是怎麼修，其實我們不預期一個時間表，我們希望這次能夠做結構性的修改。"],["林委員德福：所以是不是意味著保險法修法，你說預計1年，有沒有急迫性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個東西其實坦白講，委員，我們現在的保險法也在持續運作中，但是我們的保險市場要持續地發展，所以這個東西是做一個非常重要的基礎工程，所以我們寧可把它修好也不急。"],["林委員德福：主委，11月下旬出席台灣保險法學會主辦第10屆兩岸保險法論壇，曾提到結構性修法說不定是市場需要的，並且將和保險局研究。請問主委，媒體報導保險法修法的內容是不是和你上個月在論壇後的陳述前後呼應，是不是這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，我想就是兩大部分，過去我們保險法學者比較著重的是在保險契約法，特別像比如說受益人、要保人還有就是一些相關利害關係人的關係的修改，還有就是我們契約上面財產保險以及相關很多的內容，他們過去在學理上跟國際上面的一些保險法學理有些不同，但是除了這個以外，我剛剛跟委員報告，還有很多是因為業法的部分很多都要隨著那個改變，其實這兩次是一致的。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！那未來保險法即將大翻修，你認為會朝向你所說的結構性修法來推動嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，我想其實保險市場也是金融市場非常重要的產業，我們這部保險法如果遠溯是民國18年就開始訂定，中間雖然經過幾個修正，但是我覺得要隨著時間的改變而改變。"],["林委員德福：主委，會不會只有將現行保險法的架構上來推出增減條文的版本，是不是這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們現在保險法條文算是精簡，才一百多條，我想像我們保險市場整個環境的改變，業法的部分其實有很多需要被調整的地方。"],["林委員德福：主委，因為從第10屆保險法論壇，媒體轉述你參加時所有的內容可以看出，與會學者包括過去身為學者的你對現行保險法這個法規以及主管機關的看法與態度，再加上您認為現在保險法修法都是應急式而反應式的修法，遇到什麼問題就修什麼，比較容易顧此失彼很可惜，請問主委，採取結構性修法是不是能夠完全避免再度出現應急式、反射式的修法缺點？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，我想當天會這樣講是因為有時候我們社會上有些突發的情形就要立刻來改變，那是必然，但是這樣的改變常常會可能考慮沒那麼周延，所以我才會想說我們除了日常的解決問題的修法，我們還是要持續，但是我們希望有一次有結構性的調整，把過去我們整個保險市場，有一個至少未來二、三十年需要的架構，我們能夠在這裡一次把它做一個周延的考量。"],["林委員德福：主委，由於保險法修法涉及主管法規的機關、訂定保險契約的各方當事人，請問主委，修法茲事體大，未來修法的方向，你認為能夠重新喚起外商保險公司來臺設立的意願嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這是很多元面向，外商會不會來是看我們市場的發展，當然我們如果做得很健全、市場蓬勃發展，自然容易吸引人家過來設立相關的據點。"],["林委員德福：因為你要是修不好的話，變成會成為這些外商保險公司加速退出臺灣的一個催化劑，會不會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果是不好的我們不會修啦！"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們只會朝好的方向修。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的指點，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林德福委員。","接著我們請吳秉叡委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-11","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","王鴻薇","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","郭國文","洪孟楷","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、\n保險局、檢查局收支部分（僅詢答）；二、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司（僅詢答）；三、審查中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管：\n（僅詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1140901_00002"}}},{"id":"158233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3777787365654675213b725f5e087afaed4c8b3bbbcd3c6b37f8ca2f1dc4f42becad090f378ca0a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:19:31 - 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部分呢我們也會查查的進度呢我們要根據這個檢察官收證的情況所以到目前為止沒有進展嘛"},{"start":477.697,"end":502.919,"text":"是吧目前為止我們仍然在努力當中來請調查局局長這個人有在調查局的通緝查報的專開上嗎重大的犯罪調查局有一個通緝犯查緝通報的系統嗎照片都要出來嗎他有嗎這個部分我要"},{"start":504.751,"end":523.658,"text":"來調查局的同仁協助一下你確認以後再上來回答這個問題接下來更扯第三個林秉文一樣是88會館我們鄭文燦的麻吉林秉文一樣88會館洗錢現在人到哪裡去了部長有沒有掌握"},{"start":525.4,"end":549.317,"text":"您比我們現在,因為這個已經起訴了,這是法院在審理中這個...你說得非常的好啊,所以臺北地院就不想背鍋啊趕快發新聞稿啊,說你們一開始的時候就沒有限制出境啊人跑的臺北地院的新聞稿啊,在暗指什麼?在暗指是檢察官的責任啊那我現在就具體問一個事情嘛"},{"start":550.482,"end":560.652,"text":"當初在台北地院審理的過程當中林秉文因倒庭而沒有倒庭立體的檢察官在睡覺嗎?有任何積極的作為嗎?"},{"start":562.472,"end":579.04,"text":"這個是沈立松的被告齁,要不要限制出境出海或者是整個羈押或交保那個,我想這個要尊重法院新北,新北地院齁,這個是法院的職權法院的職權嘛,但檢察官發現該道的人部長,請你把問題聽完好嗎?請你把問題聽完好嗎?"},{"start":587.028,"end":590.37,"text":"在審判程序當中立庭的檢察官發現人不見了不用促請法院為職權的發動嗎?具體的回答什麼時候發現他不見什麼時候促請法院為職權的處理"},{"start":612.543,"end":617.126,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":638.666,"end":665.745,"text":"那個主席啊是不是可以跟部長溝通一下等我問題問完請他回答問題可以嗎是不是可以主席請部長回答問題就針對問題回答不要插嘴可以嗎因為這樣子的話社會大眾關心的根本就不知道我問什麼他答什麼嘛"},{"start":668.038,"end":696.759,"text":"是不是可以請主席處理?麻煩部長,請針對問題回答。好,謝謝主席。部長,我來請教一次。立庭的檢察官發現該到庭的人沒有到庭了,什麼時候促請院方為職權的發動?有做這件事嗎?檢察官有跟法院表示說請依法處理。什麼時候跟法院做這樣的表示?"},{"start":698.011,"end":724.024,"text":"當庭就這樣處理了?當庭就這樣表達?當庭這樣處理喔?對,這樣表達是在哪一個庭裡面?幾月幾號的庭?這個是在12月12月5號和議庭和議庭的時候就12月5號的時候才請法院處請法院依照職權處理嗎?我為什麼拿這件事情出來問?"},{"start":725.572,"end":744.909,"text":"社會大眾很憤怒啊大家看不下去啊不是只有一樁啊先是小民啊再來是瑞生銀樓的啊再來是林秉文啊大家關係好的消息都很靈通啊人就跑啦結果今天部長您是這種態度"},{"start":746.96,"end":764.448,"text":"防腐好像檢察官可以做的全部都做了他跑檢方也沒辦法也很無奈是這樣嗎這個是我們現在檢方辦案的態度嗎來請教部長人抓的回來嗎"},{"start":767.104,"end":778.299,"text":"12月26號開庭再來拘提笑死人啦人現在就已經在國外了現在是期待什麼他自己坐飛機回來開庭讓你們拘提喔太可笑啦"},{"start":780.137,"end":809.417,"text":"上一次我請教我們的檢察總長所基層的檢察官看不下去請法務部開課要學習怎麼被媒體經營然後總長說你不是很清楚沒有關係從上次質詢完到現在我相信總長有去了解基層的檢察官點名北檢的檢察長高檢的檢察長檢察總長是歷史罪人我再強調一次這不是我說的這是基層的檢察官看不下去"},{"start":811.089,"end":817.49,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":841.297,"end":860.977,"text":"然後呢10月25號跟我說分案處理了依照偵查不公開檢討小組會議依法查明真相來請總長您10月25號發函到現在目前查處的狀況如何跟委員報告喔委員提到的問題喔"},{"start":863.68,"end":877.427,"text":"這個偵查不公開的問題是個很重要2017年施改國事會議的決議那剛剛委員那天指導之後我們有交到台高檢署他們現在正在調查中因為現在正在偵查中他們無法調卷但是"},{"start":878.885,"end":900.28,"text":"那天回來之後我們要請我們檢察官這個研究之後我們又研究了一個對策就是這個建議事項其中有一點我們建議參考美國的法制定令、偵查、保密令把證人、證人還有一些相關的人都列入這個規範的範圍而且提高法律的位階提高刑案"},{"start":901.081,"end":907.647,"text":"另外,對於多島機制,我們建議把外部委員納入。"},{"start":918.971,"end":947.37,"text":"你覺得啊,你說要給證人,基本上像是美國的Gaggo Oat,這個我知道,但問題是,這個跟我所檢舉的案子有什麼關係?所以你們現在是在懷疑說這個秘密證人自己去外面講嗎?這個當然是有關係啦,因為這個偵查不公開已經是歷史上一個問題,事實上在立法上...請你針對問題回答,所以IMB的案子你們認為是這個秘密證人自己跑去跟進周刊講嗎?是嗎?"},{"start":949.87,"end":976.639,"text":"是嗎?全部查無不法,全部牽結,你找不到誰洩密嗎?那所以啊,就以IMB的案子來講啊,這個命令證人嚇得半死,我還安排他去北檢作證,結果你們的對策是要給證人gaggle out,那所以呢在這個案子裡面你們是嚴重懷疑這個證人自己跑去跟淨州開洩密喔?有這麼蠢的事喔?"},{"start":978.34,"end":985.505,"text":"有這麼蠢的事喔!跟委員報告齁這個是週刊他是有跟那個"},{"start":986.926,"end":994.171,"text":"關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1014.585,"end":1019.728,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1038.615,"end":1061.209,"text":"全部都沒有檢方的人15個人全部都警察來對我們斯坦國事會議做了這麼重要的結論了以後最後查處出來的結果全部都警察檢方的一個都沒有對這樣查處的結果部長你滿不滿意我相信我們檢察官在偵辦建築會嚴守偵查不公開的一個規定"},{"start":1065.08,"end":1082.634,"text":"檢察官當然嚴格遵守偵查不公開的規定。那等於是2017年的時候司改國是會議做的這個決議全部都是廢話因為大家都遵守嘛2017年的時候遵守2024年也遵守嘛過去這7年查出來最後怎麼樣"},{"start":1084.847,"end":1107.736,"text":"過去這7年查出來一個檢方的都沒有全部都警察我們不能說就是來不好意思主席最後一個問題今天法務部的預算我看了預算了以後來來來法務部112年、113年、114年每一年都有編一般事務費辦理部外聯繫、考察及新聞發布大概都編了大概150萬這個錢拿來幹嘛的"},{"start":1114.043,"end":1138.337,"text":"這個錢拿來幹嘛的?這個錢編在你的預算書裡拿來幹嘛的你應該很清楚啊?這個是屬於這個是就是跟記者就是以來記者來參訪來了解我們法務部的各項業務及所屬間的推動的情形去辦記者的參訪嘛法務部所屬各項推動的狀況嘛來我們看一下實際實踐的結果2023年"},{"start":1143.038,"end":1145.481,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":1155.558,"end":1160.382,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1177.554,"end":1178.915,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":1200.718,"end":1200.738,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":1221.039,"end":1231.491,"text":"適合還是不適合?這個我們這個預算本來就是要做...本來就是要做這個事的嘛!我不是要做這個事喔!這個我要做一個澄清喔!這個我們就是要做了解...請你針對問題回答!錢這樣子花適合不適合?錢這樣子花適合不適合?"},{"start":1240.198,"end":1254.478,"text":"請部長你就直接回答我們的委員的問題啊到底適合不適合我們是落實執行我們這個預算的一個執行這個是跟媒體落實預算的執行喔那等於是當初過這個預算的委員不對啊"},{"start":1255.359,"end":1256.7,"text":"稍等稍等稍等稍等"},{"start":1276.447,"end":1283.942,"text":"記者招待這個不是說什麼招待這個到記者室我們也會安排其他的參訪行程是所以我請教你去飛行劇場做了什麼簡報"},{"start":1288.063,"end":1290.304,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":1317.23,"end":1327.919,"text":"二、審查2024年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":1346.107,"end":1374.633,"text":"晚上喝成這樣喔這都是現場的照片啊我為什麼挑出來講很多檢察官在問嘛要教一教開課教大家怎麼經營媒體關係啊我秀給大家看要怎麼經營啊就這樣子經營嘛經營得很好啊這個預算我一定提案三法務部要捍衛我也OK"},{"start":1375.663,"end":1388.757,"text":"你要去找這些記者來圍剿我,我也沒有關係,但我的信念是什麼?納稅人的錢不可以這樣花!來,出國,來來來,接下來請馮誠署長。參加國民國際透明組織這場考察花了多少錢?"},{"start":1398.707,"end":1411.142,"text":"我們的這個預算的部分用的不多我們是使用那個外交部有給我們大概300萬的錢國防部有給我們50萬的錢那主要是負責全部都是國家的錢嘛對但是那個所以總共花了多少錢"},{"start":1412.481,"end":1417.745,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":1440.326,"end":1465.981,"text":"跟委員報告一下齁其實我們在國際中連政交朋友這件事情我們其實是蠻用心的是是是這個我了解所以我才具體的請教完你這個考察完最重要的啟示是什麼你有寫在出國報告你你忘了嗎你忘了你在裡面寫什麼嗎我很用心欸把你們去的我全部都拜讀完欸所以我才請教你嘛你最重要的啟示是什麼"},{"start":1467.401,"end":1495.92,"text":"我跟委員說齁其實我們這一次去齁大概像我們每次出國的時候齁我們都是希望在跟國際間齁在那反貪腐這件事是!對就是說所以你最重要的啟示是什麼?你講兩點出來就好啦第一就是反貪腐的一個經驗上的交流嘛然後第二就是增加我們國際間的一個能見度只有這樣齁?我認為是這樣是最重要的那你還記不記得你這個出國報告寫了什麼?你還記得嗎?這出國報告是你寫的嗎?"},{"start":1496.857,"end":1518.724,"text":"出國報告不是我寫的不是你寫的啊你在出國報告表示了什麼你記不記得出國報告裡面的內容蠻多的啊是是是是是所以我沒有問你嘛我沒有要你背行程給我聽嘛我只說你最後去參訪的這個你得到的啟示是什麼嗎這個有這麼困難嗎那我跟你講啦我覺得我們來我給你看啊"},{"start":1519.949,"end":1549.21,"text":"去完了以後說什麼?馮署長關於立陶宛施行接避者保護法立陶宛的接避者保護法是只有公部門還是公司部門都受規範?法務委員齁跟您先再澄清一下我並不是出去玩的在這一次沒關係你出去進行非常重要的考察那結果你的結論立陶宛的吹哨者保護法是只有公部門還是公司部門都有?跟委員報告立陶宛的這個接避者保護法是公私並行的"},{"start":1550.049,"end":1577.892,"text":"你想起來了嗎?你想起來你在這個報告表示什麼了嗎?不是想起來,我不知道委員要問這一個部分啦那因為報告的東西蠻多的嘛來參加亞太經濟合作組織APEC第39次反貪腐極透明化工作會議去的是沈鳳梁副署長嗎?沈副署長有來嗎?他沒有來沒有來嗎?OK好,沒關係我下次有機會的時候再請教不好意思喔,再用一點時間,謝謝"},{"start":1581.949,"end":1582.676,"text":"現在請陳俊宇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩請法務部鄭部長、最高檢察署邢檢察總長、廉政署馮署長、臺北地檢署檢察長、新北地檢署檢察長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：各位早。時間的關係不一一問候，時間緊迫直接切入。有關於就業安定基金被濫用的事情，我在衛環委員會直接點出來用公帑買了東西，跑去送私人親友，甚至在招標的過程當中跟廠商有圖利綁標的問題，這件事情新北地檢署動作非常快，我先肯定。","下一個問題，不是只有這一百多萬買禮品有問題，現在審計部大概簡單的看了一下就有五千多萬遭到濫用，就這個部分檢方啟動偵辦了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分臺北地檢署已經立案偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：臺北地檢署已經立案偵辦了，有列被告嗎？許銘春是不是被告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有告發，所以許銘春是算被告。"],["黃委員國昌：陳菊是被告嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前不是。"],["黃委員國昌：目前不是，告發的對象只有許銘春嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：許銘春。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子的辦案有沒有上限？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就尊重檢察官的偵辦，檢察官是證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡。"],["黃委員國昌：好、很好，大家都聽到，拭目以待喔！新北地檢署辦謝宜容，大家認為民進黨政府的斷點，辦得很快，往上辦的時候，辦的速度、辦的角度、辦的深度就是社會大眾關注的重點，不要到時候檢方辦出來的結果比審計部做的還糟糕，是不是會這樣？我不知道，不預設立場，我們接下來繼續往下看。","88黑金洗錢集團這個事情，我還在民間社會的時候，從2022年就持續追蹤，我一路追蹤下來必須要老實講，政府說要打詐、要打洗錢，辦這些案子卻辦得零零落落。我為什麼這樣講？先從「小明」郭哲敏開始講，當初去88會館的檢察官把他放走，好不容易抓回來，追究檢察官的責任，我從2023年一路問新北地檢署什麼時候要給行政調查報告？結果我今年8月拿到的行政調查報告說是一切合法、沒有違失。所以現在法務部的立場是，針對這個先去88會館接受招待，然後又把「小明」郭哲敏放掉的檢察官，連社會上面普遍印象不佳的監察院都彈劾了，但是你們的行政調查報告是一切合法、沒有違失。對於新北地檢所交出來這樣子的行政調查報告，請問法務部背書嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分，有關於去88會館的這些檢察官，我想……"],["黃委員國昌：請針對問題回答，我沒有那麼多時間，不好意思。新北地檢作的行政調查報告法務部是不是背書？這個問題非常的簡單明瞭。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們尊重新北的行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：尊重新北地檢署。請新北地檢署檢察長。"],["余檢察長麗貞：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣的行政調查報告等於是在幫這位檢察官背書，認為監察院的彈劾沒有道理，是這樣嗎？"],["余檢察長麗貞：這部分已經寫在報告上，我們認為檢察官當時在……"],["黃委員國昌：我瞭解，你們的報告我全部都拜讀了，就是回給我的公文嘛！但我現在的問題是什麼？從2023年的3月到2024年的8月，連監察院都彈劾了，你們的行政調查報告還是一切合法、沒有違失，讓人看了瞠目結舌啊！所以以新北地檢署的立場來講，監察院的彈劾不當，是這樣嗎？"],["余檢察長麗貞：我們尊重監察院的調查報告……"],["黃委員國昌：在接下來懲戒法庭的審理過程當中，新北地檢會力挺這位檢察官是嗎？"],["余檢察長麗貞：目前沒有通知我們去……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啊！你們實際上的作為是怎麼面對自家人的？一個檢察官跑去88會館，後來把他放了，你們的行政調查報告是一切合法、沒有違失，標準比監察院還要低，讓人瞠目結舌啊！有問題的還不是「小明」耶！這些有關係的人都很厲害，涂誠文一樣！偵辦涂誠文地下匯兌洗錢案，檢警跑到睿森銀樓的私人招待所，這個都是客觀確認的事實啊！已經是洗錢犯的犯罪嫌疑人，還有檢警跑去睿森銀樓的地下私人招待所，如出一轍、模式一模一樣，涂誠文跑了！請問一下，現在涂誠文到案沒有？有人知道嗎？有人關心嗎？有人在意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：涂誠文現在在通緝中。"],["黃委員國昌：在通緝中？通緝多久了？怎麼跑的？我上一次問的時候說要偵辦，偵辦的進度如何？查無不法、謝謝指教！這不是第一次問，我上次問的時候，說要分案偵辦嘛！怎麼跑的？調查局局長請上來。不好意思，部長，你的問題還沒有回答，他的問題是下一個。現在偵辦的進度如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在涂誠文……"],["黃委員國昌：是哪一個地檢署在辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在臺北地檢署……"],["黃委員國昌：來，臺北地檢署，偵辦的進度如何？"],["王檢察長俊力：因為他目前通緝中，我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：他當然在通緝中嘛！要不然你們在偵辦什麼？我上次問的時候就是問人怎麼跑的嘛！這麼厲害，都招待檢警，事前都收到風聲，都有辦法先跑，涂誠文、郭哲敏的模式不是一模一樣嗎？這些詐欺、洗錢的、有設招待所的都知道可以先跑，大家都這麼厲害？上次問你們，你們說要分案偵辦，偵辦的進度如何？"],["王檢察長俊力：報告委員，這個通緝就是分案，另外……"],["黃委員國昌：這個通緝就是辦案？"],["王檢察長俊力：是，另外我們針對這個案子，有發動拘提搜索，另外也有五個被告也都被聲押獲准，所以這個案子我們有繼續在偵辦當中。"],["黃委員國昌：就洩密的部分呢？"],["王檢察長俊力：我們也會查。"],["黃委員國昌：查的進度呢？"],["王檢察長俊力：我們要根據檢察官蒐證的情況。"],["黃委員國昌：所以到目前為止沒有進展嘛！是吧？"],["王檢察長俊力：目前為止，我們仍然在努力當中……"],["黃委員國昌：請調查局局長。這個人有在調查局的通緝查報的專刊上嗎？重大的犯罪，調查局有一個通緝犯查緝通報的系統嗎？"],["陳局長白立：查緝外逃的……是，有。"],["黃委員國昌：照片都要出來嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：他有嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個部分我要……"],["黃委員國昌：調查局的同仁協助一下，你確認以後再上來回答這個問題。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來更扯，第三個，林秉文，一樣是88會館，我們鄭文燦的「麻吉」林秉文一樣，88會館洗錢，現在人到哪裡去了？部長有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長銘謙：林秉文這個案件，現在因為已經起訴了，法院在審理中，這個……"],["黃委員國昌：你說得非常好啊！所以臺北地院就不想背鍋，趕快發新聞稿，說你們一開始的時候就沒有限制出境，人跑了！臺北地院的新聞稿在暗指什麼？在暗指是檢察官的責任。我現在就具體問一個事情，當初在臺北地院審理的過程當中，林秉文應到庭而沒有到庭，蒞庭的檢察官在睡覺嗎？有任何積極的作為嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是審理中的被告，要不要限制出境、出海或者是整個羈押或交保，我想這要尊重法院，新北地院……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是法院的職權。"],["黃委員國昌：法院的職權嘛！但是檢察官發現該到的人……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有聲請權，要跟委員報告，在審理中的被告，我們檢察官並沒有聲請權。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，請你把問題聽完好嗎？請你把問題聽完好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們法律上如果有給我們這樣的權力，我們就可以聲請。"],["黃委員國昌：在審判程序當中，蒞庭的檢察官發現人不見了，不用促請法院為職權的發動嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們檢察不是毫無作為，我們檢察有請依法處理，這個也會根據刑事訴訟法，有關於要定期報到、限制出境、出海……"],["黃委員國昌：好，具體回答，什麼時候發現他不見、什麼時候促請法院為職權的處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：促請，我們當然可以促請，但是在法律上，我們並沒有聲請權，所以我們沒有違背職務的問題，我們沒有失職。"],["黃委員國昌：所以有促請嗎？請針對問題回答就好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：請依法處理，這就叫……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說檢察官什麼時候跟法官說？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為法官可以依照刑事訴訟法有關防逃相關的機制來做處理，這是法院的職權，我們檢方必須要遵守法律。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，是不是可以跟部長溝通一下，等我問題問完，請他回答問題？可以嗎？主席，是不是可以請部長回答問題，就針對問題回答，不要插嘴？可以嗎？因為這樣子，社會大眾關心的人，根本就不知道我問什麼、他答什麼嘛！是不是可以請主席處理？"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：麻煩部長請針對問題回答。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。部長，我來請教一次，蒞庭的檢察官發現該到庭的人沒有到庭了，什麼時候促請院方為職權的發動？有做這件事嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官有跟法院表示請依法處理。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候跟法院做這樣的表示？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當庭就這樣處理了，當庭就這樣表達。"],["黃委員國昌：當庭這樣處理喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這樣表達。"],["黃委員國昌：是在哪一個庭裡面，幾月幾號的庭？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是在12月5日合議庭的時候，就……"],["黃委員國昌：12月5日的時候，才請法院促請法院依照職權處理嘛！我為什麼拿這件事情出來問？社會大眾很憤怒，大家看不下去，不是只有一樁，先是小明，再來是睿森銀樓的，再來是林秉文，大家關係好的消息都很靈通，人就跑了。結果今天部長您是這種態度，彷彿好像檢察官可以做的全部都做了，他跑了，檢方也沒辦法、也很無奈，是這樣嗎？這是現在檢方辦案的態度嗎？請教部長，人抓得回來嗎？12月26日開庭，再來拘提，笑死人啦！人現在就已經在國外了，現在是期待什麼？他自己坐飛機回來開庭，讓你們拘提？太可笑了！上一次，我請教檢察總長，基層的檢察官看不下去，請法務部開課，要學習怎麼被媒體經營，然後總長說不是很清楚，沒有關係，從上次質詢完到現在，我相信總長有去了解。基層的檢察官點名北檢的檢察長、高檢的檢察長、檢察總長是歷史罪人，我再強調一次，這不是我說的，這是基層的檢察官看不下去，直接跳出來控訴，上一次我也問了，我帶im.B的秘密證人去北檢，結果內容被鏡週刊寫出來，我去告發，沒有人知道，結果記者直接把我的名字寫出來。我上次追進度，我們一個一個來，總長說痛心疾首，然後10月25日跟我說分案處理了，依照偵查不公開檢討小組會議，依法查明真相。請總長，您10月25日發函到現在，目前查處的狀況如何？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：跟委員報告，委員提到的問題，偵查不公開的問題是個很重要，事實上也……"],["黃委員國昌：是，2017年司改國是會議的決議嘛！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員那天指導之後，我們有交到臺高檢署，他們現在正在調查中，因為現在正在偵查中，他們無法調卷，但是那天回來之後，我們有請檢察官研究，有研究了一個對策，建議事項其中有一點，我們是建議參考美國的法制，訂定偵查保密令，把證人還有一些相關的人都列入規範的範圍，而且提高法律的位階、提高刑度。另外，對於督導機制，我們是建議把外部委員納入……"],["黃委員國昌：總長，不好意思，你書面的東西，會後給我就好了，因為我……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這個也很重要，要說明一下重點……"],["黃委員國昌：因為我來是要跟你溝通的。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你說要給證人基本上像是美國的gag order，這個我知道，但問題是這跟我所檢舉的案子有什麼關係？所以你們現在是在懷疑這個秘密證人自己去外面講嗎？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這個當然是有關係，因為偵查不公開已經是歷史上的一個問題，事實上在立法上千瘡百孔……"],["黃委員國昌：是，請你針對問題回答。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：所以要解決問題要從根本上來解決……"],["黃委員國昌：所以im.B的案子，你們認為是秘密證人自己跑去跟鏡週刊講嗎？是嗎？全部查無不法、全部簽結，你找不到誰洩密嘛！所以就以im.B的案子來講，這個秘密證人嚇得半死，我還安排他去北檢作證，結果你們的對策是要給證人gag order，所以在這個案子裡面，你們是嚴重懷疑這個證人自己跑去跟鏡週刊洩密？有這麼蠢的事！有這麼蠢的事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，週刊是有跟陳姓人士求證才做這樣的報導，這個是我們有開庭做求證的。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！你講的就是陳歐珀嘛！重點是什麼？重點是週刊去問陳歐珀的時候，他怎麼知道秘密證人去講陳歐珀什麼？他一定是知道秘密證人去講陳歐珀什麼，才請陳歐珀回應、幫他洗地嘛！上次我請教你的時候，我說過去這7年從司改國是會議到現在，有多少人被追究，你跟我說處分15人，我請你把15人的名單交給我，結果交出來，我一看，哇！瞠目結舌，厲害了！15個人，全部都警察，沒有檢方的人，全部都沒有檢方的人，15個人全部都警察。對於我們司改國是會議作了這麼重要的結論以後，最後查處出來的結果全部都是警察，檢方的一個都沒有！部長對於這個查處的結果滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信我們檢察官在偵辦案件時會嚴守偵查不公開的規定，這部分我們也都是有……"],["黃委員國昌：檢察官當然會嚴格遵守偵查不公開的規定。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我相信。"],["黃委員國昌：那等於是2017年的時候司改國是會議作了這個決議全部都是廢話！因為大家都遵守嘛！2017年的時候遵守，2024年也遵守嘛！過去這7年查出來最後怎麼樣？過去這7年查出來一個檢方的都沒有，全部都是警察！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不能說就是……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，主席，最後一個問題。今天法務部的預算，我看了預算以後，法務部112年、113年、114年每一年都有編「一般事務費─辦理部外聯繫、考察及新聞發布」，大概都編了約150萬，這個錢是拿來幹嘛的？這個錢編在你的預算書裡是拿來幹嘛的，你應該很清楚啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是記者來參訪、瞭解我們法務部的各項業務及所屬機關的推動情形。"],["黃委員國昌：好，去辦理記者的參訪，瞭解法務部所屬各項推動的狀況。我們來看一下實際實踐的結果，2023年辦了兩天一夜遊，我看了這個行程真是非常地充實，在高鐵站的會議室進行40分鐘的簡報，我看了覺得很詫異，進行簡報要在高鐵站的會議室，怎麼不在法務部的會議室？原來要從高鐵站出發去參訪，參訪完了全部都是吃喝玩樂，錢是這樣花的噢！部長。你看裡面的行程……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是吃喝玩樂，我要跟委員說明，我們是利用各種場合做宣導。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：並不是宣導就只有作簡報，這個行程本來就是要作簡報嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：所以一定要去酒店才能宣導，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：你到機關去的時候，也是要實際去瞭解機關業務推動的情形嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以一定要去酒店才能宣導嘛！然後開會的時候要在高鐵站的會議室嘛！錢是不是這樣花？我問你，部長，你覺得適合不適合嘛！你覺得適合，我也給你機會回答，你就大大方方地跟全體納稅人講「我法務部認為錢這樣花適合」，你就大大方方這樣講嘛！錢這樣花適不適合？請問部長，適合還是不適合？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們編這個預算本來就是要做……"],["黃委員國昌：本來就是要做這個事的嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是要做這個事，我要做個澄清，我們就是要讓人瞭解業務推動的情形。我們在做簡報……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我就問你，請你針對問題回答，錢這樣子花適合不適合？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：錢這樣花適合不適合？你就給大家一個答案嘛！"],["主席：請部長就直接回答我們委員的問題，到底適合不適合嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是落實預算的執行，這個跟媒體……"],["黃委員國昌：是落實預算的執行啊！等於是當初過這個預算的委員不對，竟然給你錢拿去做這種事！"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且委員，作簡報、做報告並不是只在高鐵站，我們作簡報到每個機關都要實地去瞭解各個機關業務推動的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，我們請教一下，你去i-Ride飛行劇場做了什麼簡報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……當然，記者招待……這也不是什麼招待，到記者室我們也會安排其他的參訪行程。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我請教你去飛行劇場做了什麼簡報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是搭配的嘛！到機關做簡報，我們會就其他一些……除了實地的參訪，當然我們會安排其他的參觀行程。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為我把行程全部都調出來了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的參觀行程的簡報，本來就是到機關實地參訪的時候做的嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：我把行程全部都調出來了，適不適合這樣做？全體的納稅人心裡會有一把尺嘛！我今天只是要部長一個態度，你也可以說適合啊！這個行程很充實啊！一樣啊！2024年礁溪林美高爾夫球場，一樣啊！我有說錯嗎？11點簡報到下午2點，含中餐，其他的時間全部都在吃喝玩樂，我有說錯嗎？","這是現場的照片啊！我再給大家看，晚上喝成這樣噢！這都是現場的照片啊！我為什麼挑出來講？很多檢察官在問，要開課教一教大家怎麼經營媒體關係，我就秀給大家看要怎麼經營，就這樣子經營嘛！經營得很好啊！這個預算我一定提案刪，法務部要捍衛我也OK，你要去找這些記者來圍剿我，我也沒有關係，但我的信念是什麼？納稅人的錢不可以這樣花！","接下來出國的部分請馮成署長。參加國際透明組織這場考察花了多少錢？"],["馮署長成：我們的預算用得不多，我們是使用外交部給我們大概300萬的錢，國防部也給我們50萬的錢，主要是負責……"],["黃委員國昌：全部都是國家的錢嘛！"],["馮署長成：對，但是那個是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以總共是花了多少錢？"],["馮署長成：近400萬。"],["黃委員國昌：近400萬嘛！好，這個是考察。花了400萬的考察，給你最重要的啟示是什麼？"],["馮署長成：報告，不是說去考察花了400萬，而是指我們在整個透明晶質獎跟……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！國際透明組織的主席這次來臺灣我也跟他見面了。我請教你，做完了這個考察，你最重要的啟示是什麼？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告一下，其實我們在國際中，廉政交朋友這件事情是滿用心的。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個我瞭解，所以我才具體地請教，你這個考察完最重要的啟示是什麼？你有寫在出國報告裡，你忘了嗎？你忘了你在裡面寫什麼嗎？我很用心耶！把你們去的全部都拜讀完了耶！所以我才請教你嘛！你最重要的啟示是什麼？"],["馮署長成：跟委員說，其實我們這次去，大概像我們每次出國的時候，我們都希望跟國際間針對反貪腐這件事……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["馮署長成：就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你最重要的啟示是什麼？你講兩點出來就好了啊！"],["馮署長成：就是在反貪腐經驗上的交流嘛！第二就是增加我們國際間的能見度。"],["黃委員國昌：只有這樣噢！"],["馮署長成：我認為這是最重要的。"],["黃委員國昌：你還記不記得你在出國報告中寫了什麼？你還記得嗎？這個出國報告是你寫的嗎？"],["馮署長成：出國報告不是我寫的。"],["黃委員國昌：不是你寫的，那你在出國報告表示了什麼，你記不記得？"],["馮署長成：出國報告裡面的內容滿多的，委員是指哪一個部分？"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我沒有問你，我沒有要你背行程給我聽，我只說你最後去參訪得到的啟示是什麼？這個有這麼困難嗎？"],["馮署長成：我也講了，我覺得我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我給你看，去玩了以後說什麼？馮署長提問，關於立陶宛施行的揭弊者保護法，立陶宛的揭弊者保護法是只有公部門還是公、私部門都受規範？"],["馮署長成：報告委員，先跟您澄清一下，我並不是出去玩的，在這次……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你出去進行非常重要的考察。"],["馮署長成：是。"],["黃委員國昌：結果你的結論，立陶宛的吹哨者保護法是只有公部門還是公、私部門都有？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，立陶宛的揭弊者保護法是公、私並行的。"],["黃委員國昌：你想起來了嘛！你想起來你在這個報告表示什麼了嘛！"],["馮署長成：不是想起來，我不知道委員要問這個部分，因為報告裡的東西滿多的。"],["黃委員國昌：參加亞太經濟合作組織（APEC）第三十九次反貪腐及透明化工作會議，去的是沈鳳樑副署長，沈副署長有來嗎？"],["馮署長成：他沒有來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有來嘛！OK，沒關係，下次有機會再請教，不好意思，占用了一點時間，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},{"id":"16391","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16391","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db19061065897f096cb761654f0ebe352d78081dad70f87c46303cb256d0e912735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司。(處理) 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經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司。"},{"start":115.316,"end":136.817,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":138.325,"end":140.307,"text":"我會做兩年多的,然後一個做材料,然後兩個做專門,就這樣。"},{"start":177.999,"end":182.461,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":207.748,"end":208.508,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":232.358,"end":233.46,"text":"國務委員會主席"},{"start":246.496,"end":258.739,"text":"台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司："},{"start":274.984,"end":285.731,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":307.483,"end":336.51,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":343.359,"end":364.026,"text":"無限公司有限公司有限公司"},{"start":377.603,"end":377.984,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":393.387,"end":416.374,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":418.84,"end":419.46,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":445.865,"end":446.225,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":462.539,"end":463.76,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":485.976,"end":486.336,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":1728.513,"end":1742.815,"text":"還有我們繼續開會進行討論事項請宣讀繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管、台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司今日處理宣讀完畢"},{"start":1744.673,"end":1765.01,"text":"好,這個關於114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司。與11月20日第15次會議詢答結束。我們現在要進行逐項的審查。一句預算法第50條。"},{"start":1766.351,"end":1786.257,"text":"以及相關的規定我們照業務計畫部分營業收支及生產成本轉投資計畫重大之建設事業資金運用及補辦預算部分逐項來審查現在請宣讀今日審查項目跟委員提案宣讀完畢之後我們再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":1788.973,"end":1799.135,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案經濟部主管附屬單位預算營業部分台灣自來水股份有限公司一業務計畫請參閱預算書二營業收支營業總收入328億9564萬7千元營業總支出388億2919萬2千元稅前淨損59億3354萬5千元"},{"start":1815.958,"end":1821.481,"text":"3生產成本請參閱4轉投資計畫無劣數5重大資建設事業294億7302萬元6資金運用請參閱7補辦預算1固定資產資建設改良擴充7億5770萬元2長期債務舉借57億元"},{"start":1840.148,"end":1856.109,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司一業務計畫請參閱預算書二營業收支營業總收入一兆零四十七億八千五百二十九萬三千元營業總支出九千九百七十億四千八百五十六萬元稅前淨利"},{"start":1857.21,"end":1873.784,"text":"七十七億三千六百七十三萬三千元三生產成本請參閱四轉投資計畫增加投資七億五千零三十萬三千元五重大資建設事業兩千六百八十九億八千八百一十九萬八千元六資金運用請參閱"},{"start":1876.141,"end":1887.614,"text":"提案部分,台灣自來水股份有限公司,一營業成本凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案,二銷售成本向下供水費用凍結1%委員陳亭飛等提案,三服務費用檢列100萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案,四"},{"start":1892.458,"end":1914.308,"text":"服務費用瓜湖原水費用凍結10%委員邱盈盈等提案服務費用瓜湖淨水費用凍結10%委員邱盈盈等提案服務費用瓜湖供水費用凍結10%委員邱盈盈等提案服務費用向下水電費檢列5587萬1000元委員謝一鳳等提案檢列1000萬元委員張家俊等提案檢列100萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":1920.706,"end":1921.393,"text":"時水電費、關乎淨水費用"},{"start":1923.946,"end":1935.712,"text":"檢列3000萬元委員張祺凱等提案11水電費瓜湖供水費用檢列1億元委員張祺凱等提案12水電費瓜湖業務費用檢列300萬元委員張祺凱等提案13水電費瓜湖管理費用檢列500萬元委員張祺凱等提案14修理保養與保護費凍結5%委員鄭振前等提案15機械級設備維修庫費檢列1000萬元委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":1954.877,"end":1957.358,"text":"16.暫除包裝代理及加工費,減列100萬元委員邱盈穎等提案。 17."},{"start":1957.358,"end":1959.379,"text":"減列100萬元委員謝亦鳳等提案。 18."},{"start":1959.379,"end":1960.14,"text":"凍結5%委員鄭振淺等提案。 19."},{"start":1960.14,"end":1962.02,"text":"凍結1000萬元委員陳昌明等提案。 20."},{"start":1962.02,"end":1964.781,"text":"暫除包裝代理及加工費向下外包費凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案。"},{"start":1974.383,"end":1993.361,"text":"二十一材料及用品費瓜福供水費用凍結一千萬元委員陳超明等提案二十二使用材料費上下原料凍結兩千萬元委員陳超明等提案二十三凍結一千萬元委員邱志偉等提案二十四案凍結五百八十八萬五千元"},{"start":1994.502,"end":2017.744,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案二十五物料凍結兩百萬元委員邱志偉等提案二十六租金與利息向下利息檢列一千萬元委員張家俊等提案二十七檢列兩百九十七萬元委員陳亭飛等提案二十八檢列一百萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案二十九檢列一百萬元委員邱瑞穎等提案三十營業費用向下管理費用"},{"start":2018.353,"end":2028.275,"text":"動輒5%委員張祺凱等提案31固定資產建設改良擴充專案計劃繼續計劃僅列500萬元委員陳亭飛等提案32新興計劃降低漏水率計劃動輒10%委員楊瓊英等提案33動輒10%委員蔡易瑜等提案34動輒2000萬元委員陳超明等提案35動輒1000萬元委員李玉琳等提案"},{"start":2046.707,"end":2054.05,"text":"36無自來水地區供水改善計畫第5期自來水沿管工程凍結5%委員楊瓊英等提案37凍結5%委員蕭一鳳等提案38凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案39案至71案為主決議請參閱"},{"start":2065.657,"end":2082.943,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司提案部分第一案服務費用檢列1億元凍結1億元委員賴瑞榮等提案第二案服務費用向下火力發電費用凍結10億元委員呂玉玲等提案第三案凍結5%委員謝一鳳等提案第四案輸電費用凍結10%委員楊瓊英等提案第五案凍結5億元委員呂玉玲等提案"},{"start":2090.945,"end":2120.013,"text":"第6案配電費用凍結5億元委員李玉玲等提案第7案營業費用向下管理費用減列10%委員楊瓊英等提案第8案其他營業費用向下研究發展費用凍結1億元委員李玉玲等提案第9案水電費減列223萬6千元委員謝一鳳等提案第10案修理保養與保固費跨乎配電費用凍結2億元委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":2120.937,"end":2128.946,"text":"11案凍結2億元委員張祺凱等提案12案暫除包裝代理及加工費凍結四分之一委員鄭振淺等提案"},{"start":2130.707,"end":2142.993,"text":"13案專業服務費向下工程及管理諮詢服務費括弧水利發電費用凍結30%委員邱盈盈等提案14案專業服務費括弧再生能源發電費用凍結30%委員邱盈盈等提案15案專業服務費括弧業務費用減裂10%委員楊瓊英等提案16案專業服務費括弧其他營業費用向下研究發展費用"},{"start":2158.74,"end":2164.164,"text":"檢列10%委員楊瓊英等提案、17案凍結2億元委員陳昌明等提案、18案公關未落費括弧核能發電費用檢列50%委員賴瑞榮等提案、19媒體政策及業務宣導費檢列2500萬元委員張祺凱等提案"},{"start":2179.755,"end":2199.986,"text":"二十案檢列兩千萬元委員陳昌明等提案二十一案檢列四百五十萬元委員張家俊等提案二十二案推展費檢列七千萬元委員鄭振淺等提案二十三案材料及用品費凍結百分之一委員楊瓊英等提案二十四材料及用品費"},{"start":2201.081,"end":2224.481,"text":"夸乎火力發電費用凍結十分之一委員鄭振淺等提案二十五案購入電力凍結百分之五委員陳超明等提案二十六案凍結百分之五委員張祺凱等提案二十七案使用材料費夸乎火力發電費用減列五百億元委員張祺凱等提案二十八案凍結百分之五委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":2225.656,"end":2254.481,"text":"29案發電用燃料花壺火力發電費用凍結十分之一委員鄭天才等提案30藍梅花壺火力發電費用凍結百分之二十委員楊瓊英等提案31檢列五十億元凍結五十億元委員張家俊等提案32案凍結百分之五委員陳超明等提案33案稅捐與規費向下規費花壺其他營業費用向下研究發展費用"},{"start":2255.145,"end":2262.87,"text":"動結10%委員蔡易餘等提案、 34動結1124萬2000元委員邱益穎等提案、 35其他括弧營業成本、銷售成本、輸電費用、動結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案、36其他向下其他費用向下購入輔助服務支出、減列1000萬元委員陳亭飛等提案、"},{"start":2280.521,"end":2286.186,"text":"37營業成本、銷售成本、火力發電費用凍結10%委員蔡宇等提案38凍結3,553萬9千元委員邱映穎等提案39輸電費用凍結10%委員蔡宇等提案40配電費用凍結10%委員張祺凱等提案41其他營業成本"},{"start":2302.561,"end":2310.948,"text":"雜項營業成本向下用人費用凍結10%為蔡宇等提案。 42營業費用向下業務費用凍結10%為張祺凱等提案。 43凍結5%為張祺凱等提案。 44管理費用凍結1000萬元為鄭振前等提案。 45其他營業費用向下研究發展費用凍結2億元為張祺凱等提案。"},{"start":2329.237,"end":2346.084,"text":"46營業外費用業務財務成本向下利息費用檢列10億元委員振振錢等提案47檢列1億元委員賴瑞龍等提案48其他營業外費用資產報費損失檢列2000萬元委員張家俊等提案49雜項費用向下損失與賠償給付向下核四資產維護管理凍結20%委員張家俊等提案"},{"start":2358.034,"end":2361.397,"text":"50.固定資產建設改良擴充 簡列8000萬元委員陳亭飛等提案51."},{"start":2361.397,"end":2362.698,"text":"凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案52."},{"start":2362.698,"end":2364.24,"text":"專案計劃凍結10%委員蔡易瑜等提案53."},{"start":2364.24,"end":2364.96,"text":"凍結1%委員鄭天才等提案54."},{"start":2364.96,"end":2366.101,"text":"凍結5%委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":2378.643,"end":2381.266,"text":"55 凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案56 繼續計劃協和電廠更新改建計劃檢列10%凍結10%委員賴瑞榮等提案57 台中電廠新建燃氣機組計劃凍結5億元委員李玉玲等提案58 凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":2398.186,"end":2405.729,"text":"59.萬里水利發電計劃檢列20%委員賴瑞榮等提案。60.凍結1000萬元委員鄭振淺等提案。61.凍結十分之一委員鄭天才等提案。62.離岸風力發電第二期計劃凍結10%委員張家俊等提案。63.凍結20億元委員呂玉玲等提案。64.凍結2305萬3千元委員邱毅英等提案。"},{"start":2426.004,"end":2427.525,"text":"65.凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案66."},{"start":2427.525,"end":2428.745,"text":"綠輪第一期計劃檢列1億元凍結10%委員張家俊等提案67."},{"start":2428.745,"end":2429.446,"text":"檢列10%凍結10%委員賴瑞龍等提案68."},{"start":2429.446,"end":2430.466,"text":"凍結10%委員蔡易餘等提案69."},{"start":2430.466,"end":2432.227,"text":"離岸風力發電加強電力網第一期計劃凍結10%委員蔡易餘等提案"},{"start":2451.993,"end":2459.24,"text":"70.南科超高邀變電所擴建計劃凍結5%委員賴瑞榮等提案71.變電所改建二期專案計劃凍結5%委員謝一鳳等提案72.強化電網第一期專案計劃檢列議員委員賴瑞榮等提案73.凍結5%委員謝一鳳等提案74.第一期DIAMI部件計劃"},{"start":2478.786,"end":2479.146,"text":"今天宣讀比較快"},{"start":2504.656,"end":2506.956,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2534.272,"end":2540.564,"text":"你沒想到招募這麼有效率,這麼快就要過了。你沒有這麼熟悉的。"},{"start":2752.738,"end":2754.239,"text":"本席提案改成主決議"},{"start":2781.36,"end":2789.792,"text":"第2案提案委員不再照列 第3案在通案之後再處理吧 那個先說一下好不好"},{"start":2792.625,"end":2815.686,"text":"謝謝委員提案第三是我們在委員要檢列100萬的一個水電會那跟委員報告就是說我們114年的預算在水電會的部分編了37.25億最主要是台電公司在去年今年的4月跟10月有聯繫兩次的一個"},{"start":2816.787,"end":2817.588,"text":"第4案、第5案、第6案改成主決議。"},{"start":2840.764,"end":2855.557,"text":"156改組決議第7案到第13案來 賴榮你是不是改組決議請那個董事長先說明一下第9案第7到第13案可能都是也是水電會啦那賴榮這邊是要檢列100萬那這個說明一樣董事長能不能檢"},{"start":2866.425,"end":2871.191,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":2880.128,"end":2881.289,"text":"14-15天安委員不在16-20天安委員天安委員只有我在"},{"start":2903.568,"end":2926.44,"text":"20案改成主決議、區域照列21案天文不再照列22、23、2423案本席改成主決議、區域照列25本席提案改成主決議26、27、28、29那個可不可以減100?可以嗎?可以啦。可以。那減100萬。好。減那100萬區域照列"},{"start":2930.525,"end":2933.207,"text":"委員這邊是針對降低到水利這個計畫那因為我們一百四年的一個"},{"start":2959.053,"end":2985.767,"text":"第二階段的一個降漏的計畫我們也是要降到9.77%那我們明年還要再投入80億進去那這個部分因為在強烈我們的供水官網這個也希望委員能夠支持不要凍結我想委員對我們臺中地區的一些的官網是相當的重視也一直在盯領我們那我們會加速來看好啦 全力支持了現在相公"},{"start":2992.959,"end":3002.948,"text":"謝謝當然我們因為漏水率的問題我一直給這個中央一直要錢來給你甚至給部長說你就只有夠了你來拖這麼久錢"},{"start":3004.91,"end":3027.319,"text":"那這個就要凸顯這個問題,你剛才說我們明年預估要希望能夠那個多少?我們會又投入了80億的經費本期是問比例,就是說你的漏水率你希望能夠增加多少?減少多少?漏水率我們今年的目標是113年是12%那我們明年預估會再減了0.3%要大概11.7那查那怎麼明年只有減0.3%?"},{"start":3037.977,"end":3056.736,"text":"這個就是我之所以為什麼會提這個問題因為你現在不是95分要來96分97分沒有那麼困難那原因是什麼為什麼我們投入80億然後我們的減少的漏水率只有0.3%"},{"start":3058.67,"end":3080.512,"text":"跟委員報告之前這幾年來我們辦的那個漏水比較大的管段我們大概都優先處理了那現在還有一些維護比較小漏水的地方更不好做所以要投入的經費越多可是找回來我覺得這個理由我不太能夠接受的原因是什麼呢因為我們的漏水率現在還12%多"},{"start":3081.633,"end":3081.653,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3101.181,"end":3101.201,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3120.521,"end":3123.082,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司及19日二天一次會議"},{"start":3143.453,"end":3169.313,"text":"所以沒辦法 拍嘴 你是錢開不掉的 你一樣要花啊 那你再拍嘴 尤其像舊城區裡頭 你講的拍嘴跟我們的漏水綠湯 你標示第一你錢開嘴一定有成效 第二你就是拍嘴 像古社區 人家就給你 違章給你訂入面訂 你歐不會過 那這一種的有的時候施工又停掉"},{"start":3170.174,"end":3171.214,"text":"總統,我最不喜歡聽到這樣子"},{"start":3196.667,"end":3205.092,"text":"國際建是國際建他的情勢我現在告訴你的說我們明年投資八十幾億那我們的漏水率只改善0.3%你看這樣背心聽到嗎?"},{"start":3222.584,"end":3248.932,"text":"我們會再來強化把這個漏水率降得更低啦董事長繼續加油啦繼續加油那要怎麼樣說啊因為你告訴我說是因為拍嘴啊這個邏輯很奇怪啊拍嘴就是標籤你的錢消不上去連次是不是這樣啊你不是你拍嘴錢消了然後漏水率之後減0.3不是做我們還是慈禧會去做啦只是說他本來"},{"start":3249.953,"end":3255.383,"text":"這個管線比較漏的量比較少了齁所以降的幅度就會比較少"},{"start":3256.274,"end":3256.474,"text":"好 對 好"},{"start":3284.854,"end":3285.095,"text":"主席"},{"start":3305.878,"end":3330.339,"text":"好,針對這個漏水率第一個本席是肯定在經濟部昨天我有收到你們的回文針對這個高耗水的一個機構你們願意比照北水來增加這個高費水每年1000噸以上的這個是本席倡議多年那今年你們願意接受這樣的一個提議"},{"start":3331.239,"end":3359.827,"text":"第2個降水率這邊我也要請我現在向你講不是針對台水講我針對經濟部部本部講你這80幾億是借的所以我一直認為我既然台水的最重要的任務之一除了供水以及降低漏水這是你兩個最大的任務以及你搶救結果你的這個降你的漏水這件事情你全部都借款"},{"start":3361.018,"end":3382.836,"text":"我覺得這個次長您覺得這樣妥適嗎?你八十幾億哇講到八十億好像很多欸結果是你們借錢欸然後你們每年都在借錢台水不倒財怪它負債一千四百多億我都不曉得哪一個全世界哪有一家公司它負債一千四百多億它還有一個活著"},{"start":3384.253,"end":3406.032,"text":"所以我認為行政院你們一定要強力去說服行政院,強力去說服主計處你們從頭到尾這1400多億是你們員工懶惰嗎?是你董事長總經理領導無方嗎?是根本經濟部都不,你們的行政院有沒有支持你?你經濟部有沒有替台水講話?全部都是政策,難道漏水這個不是政策因素嗎?"},{"start":3407.253,"end":3421.63,"text":"所以我一直不以為然對於台電、中油我們都可以用這個超收的這個稅金去撥補他一補都是一兩千億台水我們他真的你比小孩子還要可憐你知不知道我覺得經濟部你作為國營企業的"},{"start":3425.595,"end":3425.775,"text":"經濟部次長你講個話吧"},{"start":3462.591,"end":3476.802,"text":"開發水源越來越辛苦但是降漏水利其實是一個比較好的方法我想這個預算部分我們當然支持但我也希望未來經濟部行政院給台水更多支持你要開發新的真的很難但是"},{"start":3477.202,"end":3495.546,"text":"未來水越來越重要那一定要持續的降漏水率還有很大的空間很多地方都要很大的空間那我想還是建議各位是不是這個預算給予支持然後但是也希望未來台水持續增加更多的經費來做漏水率改善同時間行政院經濟部給予更多的支持"},{"start":3508.117,"end":3532.895,"text":"謝謝主席其實我在這部分我會認為說要檢視因為說我們可能有一些這個計畫當中的問題所以我知道過了所以這個部分我就沒有意見我就照我們剛剛所講那這個漏水率的部分其實我相信我們從之前在質詢的部分也一直強調就是說你要怎麼把舊管線"},{"start":3534.236,"end":3542.668,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":3550.299,"end":3576.681,"text":"所以你真的在哪裡漏你真的不知道所以我覺得說我們應該要我之前就提過說我們應該要有一個大主張就是說因為你雖然說現在從114年到121年有這樣的大計畫可是我們這麼長的時間到底我們預計要達到什麼樣的程度我覺得應該要更清楚跟民眾表示而且這是專攻的啦"},{"start":3578.144,"end":3603.069,"text":"這不是給他摸個地方,所以大家都在爭這件事爭這件事到底誰比較急需、急迫誰那邊漏水的狀況已經是到了沒有辦法復恨我相信這個問題會是在這裡,所以可能那個原則性跟處理應該要更清楚的呈現,謝謝謝謝,下一位總理,將領事務,謝一鋒"},{"start":3607.772,"end":3620.522,"text":"剛剛那個戴華有特別提到那個負債那麼嚴重的問題啦那雖然老實講台水這段時間算是貢獻蠻大的我提兩個啦一個他應該市長今天在這邊因為跟行政院要求要比照台電嘛"},{"start":3621.82,"end":3649.331,"text":"台電現在不是從明年開始他那個各個機關自己的那個電費他們就自己負擔了對不對?現在台水還沒有是不是?我們對國中小學的那個優待的水會跟委員講一下跟委員報告台電對各部會優待的部分大概有各部會明年要自己編譯算那不再補助那我們水公司對國中小學的這個水會的優待的部分"},{"start":3649.791,"end":3673.521,"text":"目前我們還是持續並沒有由各部會或是各縣市政府來補編依算：對啊那公平啊為什麼台電可以這樣子為什麼台水沒有那這個是台電公司今年他們在電價審議委員會有做這樣的建議然後經過行政院這邊協調各部會那原來有各部會來從114年來編這個補"},{"start":3677.863,"end":3684.085,"text":"對啦,所以我今天要求說應該要比照嘛,對不對?"},{"start":3684.085,"end":3702.049,"text":"要去給行政院請署嘛,台水比照,台電該有的那個,如果是有優惠,有些補助,那應該回到各個單位去,這樣那個債務才會降下來嘛,才能解決剛剛戴化講那個問題嘛,要不然你台水虧損那麼嚴重,負債那麼嚴重,好不好?"},{"start":3703.749,"end":3724.956,"text":"我們一年大概有7000多萬優待給這些政府7000多萬對那7000多萬先要回來嘛好不好這是第一個要反映第二個還有一個方法嘛我就看了一下那個人家北水人家北水是賺錢的啊那台水為什麼一直賠因為北水是五個他分五個集聚嘛對不對五個集聚嘛你現在只有四個集聚"},{"start":3726.004,"end":3752.59,"text":"那我是建議你們比照一下是不是應該也要調適度的調一下這個調完之後有兩個好處一個就是用水少的一般的家戶喔一般家戶跟北水一樣你的那個水費是降低的可是用水的大戶他是會增加的這是第一個優點這樣鼓勵鼓勵大家要節水然後用這個使用者付費一般的民眾是水費是會降的相對如果是用水大戶他就會省這是一個對不對第二個你的收入會增加很多"},{"start":3753.57,"end":3754.691,"text":"下一位謝宏"},{"start":3772.093,"end":3785.822,"text":"我覺得現在在講調水費這個東西事實上不好意思齊凱偉我跟你有不同的看法因為畢竟我們就是說目前今年度才漲了電費"},{"start":3788.284,"end":3809.685,"text":"當然我們還是必須要試情況即便是用水大戶有可能也是用電大戶在這個情況下當然未來看怎麼樣子調整對自來水的財務是比較好的但是在今年這個情況下很多企業因應一些都已經因應不及"},{"start":3810.305,"end":3834.566,"text":"那如果在這個情況下這些中小企業我們必須要考量到他們是否能夠經營那在這種情況下我覺得是不是要調水那當然各部就是說中小學的部分是不是應該由教育部國教署統一來就是給就是說負擔這個水費的部分由政府來"},{"start":3835.026,"end":3837.587,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":3853.394,"end":3854.655,"text":"你昨天一直給我講這四個字"},{"start":3876.007,"end":3887.434,"text":"天靈眼如長夜玉冥燈啊因為你講的比較不好那個張家俊"},{"start":3891.051,"end":3917.606,"text":"大主席就是前面幾位委員大家都講到這個水費要不要漲這件事情那我想要講一下其實台水公司有一個重要的責任因為之前的這個經濟部長王美華他就曾經講過說要向行政院爭取編列公務預算來支持台水的這個財務韌性是不是大家都點頭嘛你們都記得這件事情那可是呢"},{"start":3918.827,"end":3935.22,"text":"114年的預算只看到經濟部補助台電公司對台水公司所用的所用的這個公用路燈優惠電價差額兩萬你們不覺得經濟部對台電跟台水之間的那個"},{"start":3936.42,"end":3938.781,"text":"若差太大嗎?"},{"start":3938.781,"end":3955.407,"text":"對台電是要爭取撥補兩千億耶。 然後對你們台水就說阿否則爭取這個路燈的優惠店家補你們差額兩萬。 是,但是你接受嗎?你接受嗎?就是說這個"},{"start":3957.188,"end":3957.228,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":3985.962,"end":4006.205,"text":"張旭凱之後陳俊英、陳俊英之後陳少明之後我們就請陳副大副大副之後我們就來處理我很精準的定義一下好不好今天不是要調漲稅費我剛剛的提案是比照北水是要民生用電要降包括中小企業也要降對不對只有用電大副長我再重複一次齁今天要討論的"},{"start":4007.486,"end":4030.012,"text":"特別是媒體朋友拜託一下不是要漲水價是要降水價降民生家庭一般家庭的用水是要降的還有中小企業也是要降的只有一部分要漲的是什麼比照北水的標準從4級變成5級用電大戶用水大戶就是用很多水的才會漲就對了好不好我們把它非常清楚的定義好不好"},{"start":4030.772,"end":4034.774,"text":"主席不好意思我的第二個提案然後27跟31拜託我改組決議謝謝第二跟27改組決議然後昌明跟3127、31還有接下來陳昌明"},{"start":4059.947,"end":4071.819,"text":"首先關於我的第19案雖然討論通過了但是我總要了解你這邊一共編列了36億7千多萬"},{"start":4075.456,"end":4097.084,"text":"用戶新裝工程為外承包這個是有需要但是裡面有一個高級淨水處理及廠站操作為外處理還有海水淡化廠為外處理但我記得海水淡化廠跟高級淨水處理的話是由水利市來蓋"},{"start":4099.272,"end":4119.819,"text":"這個進化廠那你們怎麼要有委外處理你們的功勞在哪裡所有設備是水利使幫你們負責的阿你們賣水到底這邊有沒有你如果給他委外處理你到底有沒有賺到錢阿你不要太老實常常聽中央的註冊常常錯誤阿"},{"start":4123.606,"end":4142.655,"text":"這個解釋一下讓我了解一下那個解釋一下我們就要處理齁我看齁不只解釋一下這個陳昌明這個委員這個案子很重要再跟陳委員再有一個時間再去辦公室詳細的說明了是來跟我報告現在不用解釋的意思你現在不是啊不用不用不用詳細報告比較好因為這個解釋齁它時間上有時候這個時間不夠"},{"start":4146.334,"end":4147.596,"text":"我先說一下,不好意思,34案"},{"start":4160.888,"end":4180.111,"text":"你這個漏水率我記得每一年都編列了很多那降低漏水率的計畫今年編了72億我記得每一年都在編那你們確實也有降水的不錯已經從今年的目標是12%"},{"start":4182.312,"end":4187.297,"text":"從19.5降到12.4表示自來水公司的員工都非常猛烈但是現在落水總覽超過3億立方公尺這裡面你們要談到自行NOR之大四季落水偵測輔助系統"},{"start":4203.786,"end":4220.612,"text":"叫做WADA另外還有跟工業業合作開發雲端AI補助漏水政策的技術這時候了解一年開70個月要花100個月去走漏水的話到底有什麼進步"},{"start":4222.152,"end":4243.736,"text":"國外有沒有最先進的技術?我看你們本來現在如果我預算沒有幫你提示算你們已經將近的編列了將近千億來做落水計劃從頭到尾你們每一年都有談落水計劃一天開一天開還是容纏在12多%這點要研究啦你們這到底怎麼做?讓我們了解一下"},{"start":4246.377,"end":4271.063,"text":"是是 請開始說明這個我們這樣大概有做分期計量管管線台灣那其實管線台灣是比較花錢的就是更新這些舊的管線一年大概百分之七八十的經費都是用在台灣管線那百分之二十左右我們是加強管理就是剛才委員所講的我們做了用AI的科技解漏的方式去把"},{"start":4271.563,"end":4293.17,"text":"有滲漏的點把它找出來另外我們建置了很多的監控系統那有這些監控系統我們去做比對分析我們現在公司內部這個大書記的分析一下我們開挖的一個挖打的一個系統每天都可以去監測我們的供水官網哪邊有弱點或是有異常那可以及時去處理"},{"start":4293.567,"end":4306.612,"text":"那這些司機能不能把它當在AI的運用邊算算做出台灣一套特別的系統用到全世界把以前的虧的錢都賺回來啊投資的錢賺回來我會講不懂怎麼說我做"},{"start":4310.798,"end":4333.394,"text":"你台灣AI你裡面有公的AI你把大四季然後用AI去做的話另外做一套運算邊緣的軟體系統賣錢把它賺回來以後就不怕了這個AI科技展覽我們是跟工研院合作開發出來而且我們有在今年的水勢大會裡面 有沒有一定一個模式可以用在全世界通用的"},{"start":4334.324,"end":4337.707,"text":"可以可以可以可以吼,那我回去瞭解一下,謝謝"},{"start":4350.851,"end":4350.871,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":4372.332,"end":4398.159,"text":"那時候我們的自來水費裡頭有附贈一個百分之三十的教育捐那個就是我把它改掉的因為早期的時候呢有房子的人以較好養人教育困難所以自來水費裡面附贈百分之三十的教育捐很多人不知道所以當時省政府我告訴省政府說不要欺騙老百姓捐是高興就捐"},{"start":4399.92,"end":4401.501,"text":"但是今天我們討論到這個很重要的議題"},{"start":4426.579,"end":4441.646,"text":"自來水不能漲價受政府的指引協助我們的廣泛民眾但是我們做了這個功德可是該當回歸給自來水的一定要回歸學校的部分我們要協助學校"},{"start":4442.486,"end":4464.703,"text":"政府我們這個9年國民醫護教育你本來就是政府要協助哪有你現在已經改制為自來水公司你們的股東都不會有意見嗎甚至有你們的股東縣市政府跟我說看多了拜託你幫我找找我每年都要了結我不要了他寧願我不要繼續了結"},{"start":4466.384,"end":4491.124,"text":"這是政府股東是政府委縣市政府委他都有這種心聲所以你們當董事長總經理的你們當部長次長的你更要有責任要解決這個問題也就是既然教育軍都已經廢除了那為什麼我們國中小學甚至直轄市裡面的完全中學高中的這個部分縣這個"},{"start":4492.825,"end":4503.412,"text":"那都是政府的那為什麼這個應該要回歸到教育部應該是要行政院雖然剛剛說統計應該是不止啦所以我要求你們去統計不止7000多萬啦"},{"start":4507.975,"end":4522.704,"text":"你們應該因為你要包括直轄市6個完全中學一般高中以前我們的台中、陸中、台中一中是國立現在是市立那一些你有辦法納入嗎?你有沒有統計進來呢?有嗎?"},{"start":4525.746,"end":4553.031,"text":"是一般的國中小對啊一般的國中小啊那我告訴你啊高中以上就沒有優待了對啊那你哪裡還想喔以前是國力台中一中現在是勢力台中一中那你在教育應該一視同仁啊你們是不是估算那你行政院你次長你們經濟部你應該要去擺人家要回來啊台電董事長坐在那邊啊曾董事長靠我靠爛啊"},{"start":4555.272,"end":4579.249,"text":"這個李董事長你也很有勇氣啊為什麼水電你這個你當主管的就是要去解決制度面的問題所以我希望做一個主決議就是學校的這個這個優惠的部分應該由行政院回歸到教育部來支援之這如果還沒有的話你也對不起我們所有的員工啦"},{"start":4580.469,"end":4596.28,"text":"每一年在講這個不對的啦 所以我想要做一個主決應該各位請我們藍綠白的委員 請主席來支持你們要趕快依照這樣子 有一個曾董事長坐在那裡 人家都這樣啊 你們還坐著睡 對不對 不行這樣啦好 謝謝楊卿委員 那個36到38 那本席38案改組誰 主決議"},{"start":4609.111,"end":4634.72,"text":"那個剛剛楊委員說主決議有沒有東西去稍微寫一下?主決議主決議來那現在謝業豐委員改主決議嘛對改主決議那36案林倩琦委員也改主決議那個楊委員對好OK好那處理39案水公司意見遵照辦理好照案通過30、40案遵照辦理"},{"start":4635.18,"end":4640.243,"text":"暫通過41案、暫通過42案、暫通過43案、暫通過44案、暫通過45案、暫通過46案、暫通過47案、暫通過48案、暫通過49案、暫通過50案"},{"start":4656.707,"end":4663.732,"text":"中照辦理 責任通過51案 責任通過52案 責任通過53案 責任通過54案 責任通過55案 責任通過56案 責任通過57案 責任通過59案 責任通過60案 責任通過61案 責任通過60案 責任通過63案 責任通過64案"},{"start":4685.43,"end":4685.59,"text":"主席"},{"start":4706.442,"end":4730.393,"text":"謝謝主席這個雖然我的案改成我是用主決議但我還是要請教一下就是我們在講那個偏遠地區無自來水那過去我們都會有做一些減水設施那我曾經也提出過一個構想就是說其實我們不一定要每一個偏遠的山上都去拉入自來水的關鍵如果能夠做減水然後由自來水公司去"},{"start":4732.779,"end":4732.939,"text":"哈囉哈囉"},{"start":4741.697,"end":4768.829,"text":"這個概念有沒有構想有沒有在你們的計畫有沒有在預算裡頭去做實施去做兌現包括跟經濟部跟水利署的那個對接的部分這個在水利署吼它無自來水地區的改善計畫裡面就有一塊是要補助給簡易自來水的設備的維護跟建設那這個區塊是由水利署這邊在做主導我知道那那個今天水利署是誰來"},{"start":4770.388,"end":4774.19,"text":"市長,市長你了解嗎?有有有,這個我們有編列在水利署那邊,確實是有編,有30億有編這塊再處理。"},{"start":4789.896,"end":4809.008,"text":"不是,偏遠山區你們當然是有無自來水計畫嘛然後我現在講的是你去做減水設施由減溢了自來水的設施然後從那裡去拉管到各偏遠山區的部落的住戶裡頭去那包括那個即使它是減溢自來水但是它的水值"},{"start":4809.828,"end":4823.802,"text":"還是必須要有保證這個技術跟這個水質的標準是要由自來水公司去協助處理有關這個下一期的這個無自來水的計畫行政院在11月剛剛核定那從114年就開始做"},{"start":4826.084,"end":4841.424,"text":"那在這一次的一個測定的作為裡面除了沿館自來水沿館以外捷運自來水是這一次的測定重點所以剛剛委員特別談到的我們有一些水質的改善還有一些除潮的一個提升我們過去很多受到災害"},{"start":4842.265,"end":4859.581,"text":"就很容易除草就那個淨水池的一個部分不見那現在已經增加到5天所以我們這一次在管理的層面有加大力度在辦跟委員報告這一次有所以這個錢是全部水利屬是是是跟自來水公司沒有關係是我們是有在辦嚴管而已我們跟自來水"},{"start":4862.304,"end":4885.056,"text":"公司合作是百分之七十部分是在沿管的部分有百分之三十是簡易自來水的部分好那你辦沿管我再請教一個更深入的問題就是說你現在在山上做的簡易自來水塔要拉的那個管線是算自來水的還是算水利的算我們的算那個簡易自來水的部分那這由我們來補助只要是工程面的部分簡易自來水的管線有必要都是由我們這個計畫來辦"},{"start":4887.065,"end":4898.123,"text":"所以那你這個計畫還是有那個評比的那個級距嗎?那你如果是這樣你很多偏遠的地方他還是裝不到自來水啊?"},{"start":4899.453,"end":4927.834,"text":"對我們是因為現在每一戶的成本如果超過100萬大概是有困難因為成本太高我們就效益會不夠你有去算過你現在100萬是因為從山下拉管線上去我現在講是說你如果在山上直接做減水的設施直接這樣拉管線成本是不是會降低那是不是可以讓更多的沒有錯普及到更多的戶對我們就是目前按照這種方式來辦理沒有錯是是是先問西鳳"},{"start":4931.108,"end":4932.57,"text":"第7案跟第17案改組決議?"},{"start":4932.57,"end":4935.352,"text":"第7跟第17改成組決議剛才楊雄議員那個組決議有沒有在... 我們就先讀剛剛已經通過的協商結論"},{"start":4958.888,"end":4979.638,"text":"宣讀自來水協商結論第一案預算照列本案改為主決議第二案預算照列本案改為主決議第三案預算照列本案改為主決議第四案預算照列本案改為主決議第五案預算照列本案改為主決議第六案預算照列本案改為主決議第七案到十三案簡略服務費用"},{"start":4980.498,"end":5001.465,"text":"一百萬元科目自行調整其中第7案改為主決議第14、15案預算照列第16至17案預算照列其中17案、20案改為主決議第21案預算照列22案至24案預算照列其中23案改為主決議25案預算照列本案改為主決議26至29案"},{"start":5004.506,"end":5031.777,"text":"簡列利息費用100萬元其中27案改為主決議第30案預算照列第31案預算照列本案改為主決議第32至35案預算照列其中32案、34案、35案均改為主決議第36至38案預算照列其中36案本3案均改為主決議主決議部分39案至71案均照案通過"},{"start":5033.683,"end":5058.823,"text":"宣讀完畢好,我們補一下那個70新增71支議案遭案通過好,遭案通過好,這個請問各位同仁有委員提案的部分關於台水的部分有委員提案的部分居然照剛才宣讀的結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列或隨時調整請問有異議"},{"start":5061.571,"end":5086.688,"text":"通過的決議文字授權主席及議事人員來整理那水公司的預算處理完畢請水公司的同仁辛苦了可以離席了謝謝次長你還不能離席我們休息五分鐘必要時間長兩分鐘"},{"start":5555.936,"end":5585.476,"text":"來 我們現在進行台灣電力股份有限公司的協商董事長董事長好 那個這個 沒關係 董事長也在 市長也在第一案 服務費用 這案我們不在 照列"},{"start":5587.403,"end":5599.937,"text":"第二案、第三案李玲委員跟謝一鋒委員那個一鋒要改組決議嗎?沒有,我是問他吧"},{"start":5609.974,"end":5629.714,"text":"陳董先說明,第二、三那個跟委員報告就是所謂那個服務費用這一大塊原則上都是技術費用就是說簡單來講在火力裡面如果是屬於服務費用都是維修費用比較多書便店的也都是就是這一類的"},{"start":5630.795,"end":5653.226,"text":"我們有幾個系統各個系統底下的服務費用都是類似維修等等的費用比較多那各位委員會比較關心的當然就除了業宣費那些以外大部分都是各個系統的維修費用等等我凍結啊我就是我們就是說凍結嘛做文字修正嘛對不對那個凍結然後凍結提書面報告凍資是不是"},{"start":5663.174,"end":5664.694,"text":"關於台電提了第10案就是服務費2跟3"},{"start":5693.481,"end":5708.265,"text":"董事長剛剛也說了就是說如果維修的當然我們一定會全力支持但是就是說你宣傳的部分我們現在真的不知道說我們這個全國的火力放電"},{"start":5710.166,"end":5726.252,"text":"您是要宣傳說 經濟在燒 還是宣傳說 金不要燒您現在要宣傳什麼 我也希望聽到說明 那另外我也支持西方委員跟李毓民委員的要凍結 然後報告後使得凍結 來來 西方"},{"start":5730.522,"end":5751.276,"text":"不好意思,我再補充說明就是還有火力發電的部分因為你們也要做碳補桌那是不是也請台電說明一下你們碳補桌未來要進行的速度以及怎麼做這個部分也應該要給民眾了解清楚才能知道說大家對於台電減碳的準備做得怎麼樣好,請台電說明跟委員報告就是說那個"},{"start":5759.025,"end":5784.752,"text":"其實台灣現在是同時要面對兩個方向的考驗第一個就是我們用電量增加那主要是我們的產業發展的原因那在火力發電的部分現在我們主要都是用天然氣未來的火力發電主要成長都是天然氣那燃煤會逐漸的減少這是第一個前提那當然是為了要供應我們國內用電的需求"},{"start":5786.412,"end":5810.317,"text":"天然氣的碳排量是燃煤的一半所以我們會先用天然氣來做減碳的工作長期來看當然我們希望未來火力發電能夠讓新進的技術來替代這個是全世界都在共同努力的方向其中一項就是謝委員關心的CCS到底能不能做、要怎麼做CCS現在的狀況是這樣"},{"start":5813.438,"end":5838.259,"text":"湯卜桌封存原則上他現在要考慮的最關鍵的是成本就是技術一直在進步這幾年來技術一直在進步那還有兩個事情一個事情是那個捕捉的技術怎麼樣減少能耗另外一個部分就是在封存的部分怎麼找到適合的地址那同時在封存的技術上面能夠成本降低因為我們現在不是把那個氣體"},{"start":5839.56,"end":5855.009,"text":"直接灌進那個拿去封存就是他要進到一個臨界狀態才能夠封存所以他需要使用能源就把它壓縮等等那這些相關的工作我們都在發露這一些技術的眼鏡在追那現在的狀況是這樣我們有做一些試驗性的暗場先做封存"},{"start":5861.032,"end":5863.673,"text":"台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司"},{"start":5882.343,"end":5893.792,"text":"有幾個適合的地點有幾個適合的地點可以做這些相關的工作那當然主要都還能夠跟我們的火力電廠匹配他的位置還可以匹配那可以匹配的地點我們會先做謝謝喔那個我們是不是速度凍結因為火力發電我這個新南火力發電廠一次"},{"start":5904.298,"end":5922.909,"text":"那我是覺得這個171億大家都有公視我們部分凍結嘛部分凍結的額度我看是不是不要說10億是不是可以能不能簡略4度啦簡略4度啦各位我們是不是簡略4度然後凍結4度啦比如說減1000萬凍結1億減1000萬凍結1億啦"},{"start":5938.641,"end":5940.682,"text":"5%也很那個阿,5%也還好啦"},{"start":5965.445,"end":5978.998,"text":"人家沒有要剪裂,你為什麼要剪裂?是你要剪裂的喔?沒有啦,因為我有火力發電廠在那邊喔對,我有火力發電廠,我們一國就剪裂人命啊不是啦,那個專體委員沒有要剪裂啊你這樣說不起來就好啦"},{"start":5981.892,"end":5985.633,"text":"這兩案處理,一個凍結5%一個凍結10億那我也說那些依放價5%就是差不多要9億,要9億是不要凍那麼多,凍結3億就好了沒有啦,3億太少啦你不要5%啦,你要9億嘛,你凍結6億啦8到20的凍資安就好了"},{"start":6012.449,"end":6014.59,"text":"主席我已經講到6億你只要講一個5億不是那但是主席我的問題沒有回答"},{"start":6033.201,"end":6037.523,"text":"到底你這個部分170多個維修的我們全力支持你宣傳的是要宣傳火力發電廠繼續加速修或是不要修或是減少修你要重點要講阿跟委員報告就是火力發電費用底下服務費用就全部是維修全部是維修你看你剛才提到就是有關於夜宣等等的大科目底下一到二"},{"start":6058.952,"end":6068.858,"text":"就是19案的時候才是啦那二跟三案他講的就是火力發電這個系統裡面的服務費用全部都是那個跟維修相關的一些費用"},{"start":6070.094,"end":6071.615,"text":"是真的是真的"},{"start":6099.015,"end":6111.509,"text":"你現在要選團 要選團 要燒不要燒 要很高不要很高那針對我的問題啊 就是我剛才講的事情 就是我們現在要維持電力穩定 所以我們必須要興建更多的天然氣機組繼續維持供電穩定 對繼續燒"},{"start":6116.134,"end":6120.581,"text":"天然氣機組不管是空牌或是碳牌都好很多"},{"start":6132.798,"end":6141.108,"text":"設備全部預算百分之一百通過還要鼓勵你們辛苦了趕快做做了你運轉還要保證喔還要運轉成功你才來拆 對不對我們就是這樣子都悲催的這樣配合"},{"start":6150.742,"end":6176.108,"text":"你不能說前面猜後面不猜誰擋得住主席會擋不住好不好以我台中火力化電廠來講你如果第二期完成你已經可以增加將近百分之四十三十五%多比你現在的還要多再加上民間的中央所以你要冷靜去思考你很有智慧的你一定要照承諾"},{"start":6177.108,"end":6182.324,"text":"拆真就是要拆不能我最不希望我一邊講一下不能"},{"start":6183.737,"end":6184.538,"text":"這部分我做這樣的決議"},{"start":6208.537,"end":6217.142,"text":"主席也當然要保持一定的韌性那現在一定要有韌性我們綜合李玉琳跟謝忻鳳的提案我們是凍結 你知道剛剛是說6億嘛那個 董事長那個書面報告凍結凍結6億提出書面報告的凍結我們繼續處理第4、第5"},{"start":6234.639,"end":6244.546,"text":"第4、第5,楊全英跟李玉琳的提案請台電說明跟委員報告這兩案也是一樣他是在輸電部門的檢修費用"},{"start":6252.745,"end":6253.305,"text":"所以我會提出我要給你"},{"start":6283.254,"end":6305.293,"text":"提出這個議題第一個電出來要紓配我們常常被人家說一隻蟑螂不然就是什麼鳥柱都說不講話高啦高雄是猴子啦我們的是老鼠啦不然還有那個小鳥啦你都是給那個理由是沒有辦法講話的"},{"start":6307.294,"end":6325.106,"text":"他沒有反駁你,我告訴你他有靈性,他有一天會給你反駁我跟你說這個是我不希望以後你該當怎樣就坦白講不要所有都沒有原因只有那個猴子那個什麼鳥啊還是什麼那個都是講那些動物啦"},{"start":6330.95,"end":6333.253,"text":"我真的不希望用這種理由去給民眾講"},{"start":6345.619,"end":6353.945,"text":"我們所擁有的建築物都要重新調配,讓它們的膠、尿素、膠都不能進去,因為有碰到問題就要解決問題,而不是說只有這樣就刷掉,我們是要真正的去討論你的輸配問題,所以這是第一個。"},{"start":6365.874,"end":6393.778,"text":"我希望就是說你們在輸配的這個部分你要怎麼樣進進方案不要再用那個不會講話他是會講話只是我們聽不懂他啦他也沒有辦法給人講話是沒有通而已啦其實他一定會知道很生氣怎麼可以這樣都講我老鼠鳥啊不然就松鼠不可以這樣子好所以呢這是第一個進進方案要出來"},{"start":6394.358,"end":6407.731,"text":"第二個,我要跟你探討一個問題。 你的維修,因為我們今天,我說台電的員工太辛苦了。 我們這次講好像又說霸凌的。 那個晚上兩三點。"},{"start":6409.578,"end":6410.479,"text":"中央政府總預算案"},{"start":6426.178,"end":6430.141,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":6446.335,"end":6452.098,"text":"但是我會顧他,我會說你為什麼沒有自己的經濟部,電視要怎樣,是不行的,好不容易有這個好的員工態度,要保護他安全可是現在據我聞,你們現在這種搶修人員的加班,加班你一點錢給人多少?"},{"start":6468.05,"end":6472.111,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司"},{"start":6489.076,"end":6501.859,"text":"律師出門喔律師出門從他律師事務所出來他就要計算時間喔到你開庭他從律師事務所出門他就算這樣我不敢說我們的員工這樣出門就要算但是你想不到一點點7-11也不是那個錢7-11的月薪也不是那個錢"},{"start":6515.523,"end":6535.412,"text":"那個不是加班費啦,那個是額外的津貼啦。我知道如果有同仁跟您反映,也有跟我反映的,我們該做的我們都會做。啊,怎麼做啊?一鍋真透明的菜,一百塊毛褲你敢買?不只啦,那個是額外的津貼,不是加班費,那個絕對不是加班費。但是我們有一個名字叫危險津貼啦。"},{"start":6537.552,"end":6543.737,"text":"你這個外國人要檢討嗎?我們有在檢討,就今年10月以後我講一個例子齁,中華一個國會長,我是不希望發生這樣的事情他一國五六萬,大概在30年前,大家也說齁,你餓了一百元就不去創業,自己借那些五六萬,我說你出店去"},{"start":6561.23,"end":6578.904,"text":"這個這麼危險的,不叫你透明,晚上風那麼大雨那麼大叫你來啊,叫你回去明天看你買不買,有的有吊拿捏,有的是沒吊拿捏,這麼危險,還有我們中小企業有一個石垃圾擺來擺去,電樓的這裡擺來擺去,它沒有一點是它這樣有石垃圾嚇到,我告訴你,結果那個國會聽到我說你們不要這樣講,它的危險性有多高,有一天,真的複雜。"},{"start":6590.843,"end":6591.503,"text":"馬上口語講什麼?說脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫脫"},{"start":6621.051,"end":6621.611,"text":"公司、台灣電力股份有限公司"},{"start":6645.891,"end":6652.537,"text":"在維修、搶救、隨時的你去檢討,你檢討說你目前的危險津貼,你到底多久以前所洩漏,到現在你也多久沒有去調整,沒理由沒調整啦,我跟你說,對不對?因為員工如果要說這個,他是很厭愛的,他今天就要臨台前,他才會再坐在那裡,他才會再說"},{"start":6669.312,"end":6670.352,"text":"我們要好好尊重人家,你要去盤點。"},{"start":6686.243,"end":6686.623,"text":"張宇峻"},{"start":6714.449,"end":6717.152,"text":"議案改成那個主決議了齁 主決議好 張佳俊 最後再請台電回答"},{"start":6723.195,"end":6749.946,"text":"主席謝謝我想要呼應一下楊瓊英委員的發言真的這些台電的在第一線的基礎人員非常非常的辛苦尤其是像今年有連續三個颱風那連續這三個颱風像以我們雲林為例我們有很多這個養雞啊養豬啊那像這個養雞他跳電之後他的雞沒有照燈他很多小雞就會死亡"},{"start":6750.586,"end":6765.078,"text":"所以這些台電的搶修人員其實他也很努力阿他又淋雨又刮風然後又危險然後晚上還不能回家睡覺說實在大家將心比心他們也都是有妻子有小孩"},{"start":6765.558,"end":6793.357,"text":"他的家人在家肯定也很擔心他在外面的安危所以我也同意呼應這個楊瓊英委員說這個危險加急甚至加班費台電這個董事長我想他是非常的愛心是不是能夠主動來提起說做一個檢討來照顧這些在第一線最辛苦的這些搶修人員那當然我也想在這裡也提一下就是像我們沿海"},{"start":6794.338,"end":6795.878,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":6813.283,"end":6813.463,"text":"請台電答覆"},{"start":6834.188,"end":6847.506,"text":"謝謝委員關心同仁的福利有關於福利的部分我們今年10月份事實上也調整了一次危險津貼當然也不是今天省預算大家才在關心大家平常都在關心尤其是颱風發生以後"},{"start":6849.068,"end":6865.737,"text":"所以其實我們今年10月份就已經做了一次調整這第一個部分那第二個部分是因為這個科目正好都是這些服務費用就是委員很關心我們停電相關的問題那其實這幾年來我們的輸電線路增加的量非常的多"},{"start":6866.437,"end":6870.441,"text":"同時它需要維護的量體變大所以我們的預算才會編列在這個地方也要請各位委員支持至於各個各別的地方怎麼樣檢討它能夠地下化要跟委員報告就是讓我們看實際在地的狀況"},{"start":6883.476,"end":6897.634,"text":"有些沿海地方就是你一滴下的話它就泡在水裡面因為那個地下水層比較高的尤其是在餘溫旁邊的這個是我們現在遇到的難題所以我們的改進方法是我們現在是要把它的線路跟電感強化"},{"start":6898.795,"end":6917.663,"text":"就是線路跳掉其實要修復很快啦現在是電感出狀況折掉那個就比較麻煩所以我們花很多時間在做這些相關的工作把它做一些具體的改善那至於水位比較高的可以有機會做地下化尤其是主幹線可能可以做到影響比較大的我們會優先檢討來做好請進一杯"},{"start":6924.157,"end":6950.709,"text":"謝謝主席我想請到董事長你剛就是說這個地下化的問題我跟你們報告一個狀況現在其實在市區非常多就是一摘屋一摘房就是那個地下化一下子高價一下子地下然後呢如果是因為無法克服那沒有話講可是不是沒有辦法克服不是沒有辦法克服是你們說沒有預算"},{"start":6952.213,"end":6954.214,"text":"中央政府總預算案"},{"start":6967.601,"end":6968.701,"text":"我就是要跟你討論這個就是說你們要把條件開出來"},{"start":6985.166,"end":7011.62,"text":"你懂意思嗎?就是說今天你要講說 今天你要報復可以嗎?可以提供嗎?要不然人家會說 那邊比較有力 這邊比較沒力嗎?不是嘛 就像你講的有很多的因素嘛 第一個有沒有配合款 第二個應該配合款是後面啦 應該是第一是你的變電箱 對 你的變電箱到底可不可以找到地方擺"},{"start":7013.153,"end":7035.294,"text":"然後你的限入的問題你要把條件開出來讓地方去克服然後再來如果這些克服完之後就是我們配合款地方配合款你把這些都舉出來如果地方沒辦法解決就沒你的事了現在不是啊現在全部壓到就是說就台電說沒錢"},{"start":7038.325,"end":7064.031,"text":"那這些錢要去哪裡?委員如果有具體的案件我們可以來說明因為中間有很多人在喘啊或怎麼樣最後都講說台電說沒錢我舉例來講我說需要配方配合的款也會變成台電說沒錢這個就會變成那如果說你們這個所謂市政府各縣市政府要配合的部分這個款項的比例你們有在明文規定嗎?"},{"start":7066.176,"end":7073.421,"text":"是多少?一半一半?在地下化要一半一半?為什麼要一半一半?"},{"start":7073.421,"end":7079.526,"text":"原來就一開始從頭到尾的規定,那不是我定的那為什麼要一半一半?"},{"start":7079.526,"end":7083.269,"text":"不是,當時候這麼定一半一半的意思是什麼?"},{"start":7083.269,"end":7086.191,"text":"因為幾年的水位呢?"},{"start":7086.191,"end":7087.372,"text":"現在電信建貨要一半一半?"},{"start":7089.421,"end":7103.302,"text":"你如果說8273那還有道理你那一半一半什麼人在政府那有可能把你開是你地下化是你在收的管線是你在收的米來電是你在收安捏 要什麼時候政府要配合"},{"start":7105.852,"end":7108.174,"text":"現在政府會不會要配合一半?"},{"start":7108.174,"end":7113.099,"text":"這到底在哪裡啊?"},{"start":7113.099,"end":7115.941,"text":"不是這個不合理啊?"},{"start":7115.941,"end":7123.528,"text":"這也是一個讓地方政府能夠有序地排出來哪些地方依照順序來做地下化的一些工作"},{"start":7124.569,"end":7131.032,"text":"如果他沒有不需要付出任何那當然這整個過程就會要求更多的case。 董事長我講的已經是說這幾招就是一定有打劫法阿外部打劫法呈現一個世貿非常奇怪的狀態阿你現在說這樣是知道"},{"start":7140.956,"end":7154.407,"text":"那種一定是少數啦,就是沒辦法做的才會這個樣子市政府你出一半,他覺得說他的這個有壓力而且因為是你地方在整個地下化的狀態,是你要收錢還是要出一半?這個有問題啊通常這種案子都已經是講好了要做,中間遇到人民陳抗等等的,市府也沒辦法才會卡住才會卡住,對"},{"start":7166.517,"end":7168.599,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":7182.543,"end":7183.444,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":7183.444,"end":7193.269,"text":"我不曉得是在哪裡 有啊 就是有很多人家案場人家建設公司 人家配合的能夠使用到好的 你說人家說沒有那個架空庫你忙?"},{"start":7193.269,"end":7195.07,"text":"要不然你要撿到多少錢再多少錢?"},{"start":7195.07,"end":7206.076,"text":"你們為什麼不要一次剛剛好他在建設的當中 把它配合好把它作為規劃 那個建設我已經很多案子了啦 那種供電的通常都是建商啦"},{"start":7206.656,"end":7220.982,"text":"不是公共,如果是整個從話區一次做,我們不會這樣做,特別的監護來說,那個就是要股份。 不是啦,就是整個案場的部分,我覺得你們還是要去把這些原則去訂好了。 好,那個,大臣,你再找個時間詳細跟陳經理委員請他做一些說明,詳細齁,內容之後我們就處理喔。 好。"},{"start":7226.605,"end":7240.222,"text":"主席、鄭董事長我想還是要提醒最近幾次的颱風狀況其實從南部上來那就是上次那個山陀颱風就很嚴重從前鎮小港上來17級強風那個連那個貨櫃都被吹翻掉"},{"start":7242.725,"end":7256.946,"text":"甚至於連很多的那個便利商店整個被吹所以說但是偏偏我們前陣小港又是台電的重鎮就是小港有大林電廠前陣有南部火力發電廠所以我是覺得還是要請台電要持續的去重視這個問題就是說"},{"start":7259.169,"end":7285.001,"text":"電網的韌性怎麼樣把將這些發的電能夠穩定的輸送出去包括周邊的電力的部分我還希望台電能夠持續重視問題那特別是幾次的經驗下來真的南部有時候會遭遇到這種很特殊狀況下因為他進來的時候幾乎沒有遇到屏障幾乎整個直接進來你大概在台灣很難遇到有哪個地方遇到但東部有啦東部比較容易的那南大概只有南部會直接遇到這種直接進來然後17級的強風"},{"start":7286.522,"end":7286.822,"text":"第4案、第5案"},{"start":7306.418,"end":7328.012,"text":"這個大家都支持輸電費用,輸電費用很重要,那我們是不是試圖凍結啦,凍結五千萬啦,那那個停輸命報告之後死的凍死啦。好,那第六案,好,那第四案楊強英委員改組決議,"},{"start":7329.912,"end":7341.501,"text":"那第2案李永遠我們不在我們是照列第7案楊雄永遠楊雄永遠 還有你嗎?楊雄永遠 還有你嗎?對第7案要不要選下一個說明請台電先說明第7案"},{"start":7350.869,"end":7374.134,"text":"跟委員報告就是第7案管理費用的服務費用主要是我們做一些行政單位等等的一些管理的費用那委員是特別關心到就是有關於招考媒體報告那個報導那件事後來我們去澄清那個媒體報導裡面中間有一些有一些疏漏那當然我們辦理的一些國家考試阿等等台電還辦國營事業的"},{"start":7376.515,"end":7379.59,"text":"人員招考所以在考試這個部分我們一定會嚴謹處理"},{"start":7383.899,"end":7411.819,"text":"你還要怎麼解除?這個事情要怎麼解除?你再說一次委員關心到嘛,因為提案裡面寫到的是那個北市區處的狀況那個其實也不是工會幹部啦也不是什麼帶著人家進去看考場啦我們有去針對這個事件不管什麼身份有提出問題你們要去把他瞭解嘛對不對?有,就是有瞭解才跟委員報告"},{"start":7415.542,"end":7436.262,"text":"因為行政院的那個平台要具名,人家邱太陽我前天跟他討論,他說如果沒有具名的,如果有市政的,我們一樣接受。不管說他要工會,他什麼人啊。 是工會被指控,不是工會指控。 對啊。"},{"start":7444.382,"end":7456.332,"text":"委員關心到主要是有關於考試那個部分考試這個東西的公平性一向就大家都非常的重視那這一個部分其實已經是到一個這跟題目什麼都沒關了就是說考場"},{"start":7457.293,"end":7485.416,"text":"能不能漸進去看的事情那後來我們也澄清我們也澄清這個是並不是如媒體報導這樣中間有一點點落差那我要請委員能夠提案因為我們其實要辦理這種人員增市阿等等相關的費用其實是不是能夠這個管理費用的這個底下的錢能夠讓我們維持這個真的是很重要啦因為他佔整個公司的他佔整個公司的支出比例其實相對低要做的工作並不少"},{"start":7486.657,"end":7515.389,"text":"不管預算多少齁重點是在為什麼人家會這樣稱情我在care的是這個因為預算是你們編的你們編的一定是有救的你們才會編這個預算你不可能腦子有洞編一個不足的預算送到立法院來給我們審嘛 對不對那所以本學要討論的不是他的預算多少而是為什麼人家會提出這樣的爭議包括你剛才說的你的考試的考場啊怎麼樣"},{"start":7516.249,"end":7521.879,"text":"好,我們查得很好,沒這個事,沒這個事你做高級主管的人,你要去找我,誰會幫你擋空?"},{"start":7527.23,"end":7532.414,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":7553.772,"end":7557.053,"text":"其實我看到公司的治理最恐怖的是什麼?"},{"start":7557.053,"end":7574.678,"text":"沒東西說到有東西 這個裡面貓膩就很糟糕了喔 對不對 你如果真的查了啊 真的有問題啊 我們就改善就OK了 你現在查不到原因人家就把你弄 到底什麼意思 聲東擊西 是我最怕的 對不對 你要再說一下嗎?"},{"start":7576.114,"end":7594.918,"text":"委員我這樣說就是有關於這一個部分的工作我們當然當場就請人事去關心了啦那我主管也都去了解那如果我這樣講就做不足的細節我們都會請同仁改進都會請同仁改進因為這國會的事盡量不要發生這問題我及其委員會委員會說這樣我們運動來講你知道你這會走運動怎麼會有關係運動要改啊對不對 是這樣要怎麼辦"},{"start":7603.769,"end":7619.757,"text":"就是講簡單一點就是會被誤會的事我們就排除啦比方說你這一些像說什麼進考場等等的或者是同仁有去反應我們就儘快做回應不要讓他事情講出來講到就歪掉"},{"start":7621.178,"end":7644.818,"text":"因為無中的能夠會摸到這麼大片 這比有的更恐怖這是我認為在看治理管理的方面 那所以這樣子啦第7案你這樣說明我本來是要簡略啦 那沒關係大家加油但是我也要請你們精進方案要順便資料給本席好不好 就該主席去討論"},{"start":7648.181,"end":7648.622,"text":"第9案依奉"},{"start":7676.365,"end":7676.525,"text":"第9案改組決議"},{"start":7697.889,"end":7706.418,"text":"我的第10案是服務費用、修理保養與保固費、配電的費用所以一共編列了71億8610萬但是根據台電的評估過去10年"},{"start":7717.728,"end":7743.745,"text":"六度及新竹用戶用戶數的成長13.25%但是虧欠才增加5.05那我覺得這個地方要增強啊這個是應該你們要改進的虧欠要加強,新竹也很重要你發電出來沒有虧欠發電也不到嘛所以這表示你們動作有一點落後了啊在這一方面我想到一點問題啊"},{"start":7745.066,"end":7748.931,"text":"全都投資那一邊,我們這個財政措施法分法也建議要修改一下。"},{"start":7761.826,"end":7786.568,"text":"我們今天會議都說你去台電去應對這幾個六度底啊,我們整個要會議到最後我是討論的,想到這個問題,我們不會反對,你的虧欠一定要趕快適度加強另外剛剛談到地下化,我只拜託一件事情,你台電也不是我的錢啦,你現在是負債累累,你一直在排斥說不要講台電沒有錢,你們真的沒有錢"},{"start":7787.549,"end":7810.005,"text":"不然你就不用要到一千億兩千億要國會通過來支援你們我們面對事實這不是你們錯這是十幾年啊我們能演政策的大錯誤把你們壓得不能喘氣其實你們很優秀我相信各位都能提到你們到這一點所以我看今天的預算大家也沒有準備要把你們三錢準備給你們好好發揮在"},{"start":7812.246,"end":7836.488,"text":"關於地下化我希望這樣地方有沒有開闢道路有需要申請地下化你們一定要配合這一點你做到就很不錯了我是很確實的講出來關於大家談到地下化地方如果以那個道路裡面在做水高要安裝有沒有地下化你們一定要配合因為這個很重要"},{"start":7837.569,"end":7856.211,"text":"不然你前面地下化非常的困難在重要的地方需要的地方地方覺得這個可以把四農整個改觀的地方麻煩你們全力配合一下不要說我沒有錢你剛剛講不能講台電沒有錢我曉得你們很有錢錢還是很多啦可以做的啦"},{"start":7857.331,"end":7866.174,"text":"那個土建如果地方政府在開闢道路等等就一次做我們都優先做,我們會優先做委員會議是我們一定會執行的。陳昌明委員11號改成陳昌明委員改主席那議員召列"},{"start":7885.16,"end":7897.128,"text":"十三案的部分我們在議程照列十三案的部分邱毅英委員好十三案改組決議十四案改組決議好十五案請說明臺電請說明"},{"start":7907.165,"end":7922.338,"text":"好那個跟委員報告這續航進教其實在1996年就開始執行到現在這很久了主要是說我們最兼載的發電費用可能最高就是我們要開小的發電機它成本最高那如果可以不要開我們就"},{"start":7922.998,"end":7949.817,"text":"通過需量增加的方式讓用電戶減少用電不要去用掉那個編輯上最貴的發電設備那在這個方式上面我們會給他一定的優惠所以這個方式坦白講我們這幾年雖然預算有變但是我們也都很認真的在遵節支出可是預算就是要變因為他會跟著整個供電情勢在變化是不是能夠請委員支持我們就是對於這個整個"},{"start":7951.818,"end":7976.011,"text":"就是需要競價等等的一些工作能夠遵節支出然後讓我們提書面報告這樣啊你們這個每一年也都剩餘很多啊跟委員報告齁 對不對當然你們有餘啊但是剩餘蠻多的啊我們預算編著就是有的時候真的是因應不時之需啊我知道啦 剛剛我也說啦因為你歷年比如說去年啊那個總經理幾年這樣用多少"},{"start":7978.86,"end":7998.182,"text":"因為你有收就有支啊 你支就不用支那麼多啊 你就收這樣起來 不然說一直付錢一直付錢 你2億多其實這一個部分我是看到啦 我們自己的今年預算編列自己就先減了啦"},{"start":7999.083,"end":7999.244,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":8021.344,"end":8035.858,"text":"因為這個包括了整個你這一部預算啊收支要怎麼去平衡啊 對不對你就沒必要變開那麼多因為實際你開不去啊你把它佔在這裡啊你每天就賣不開啊 對不對是不是這樣 對不對你也要看整體性的會計啊"},{"start":8046.266,"end":8056.249,"text":"請說明去年市場而已嘛對不對那個跟委員報告那個去年的質疑率是這樣所以所以每一年都是這樣啊大約啊2023年啦齁2024年我們編8億今年只編4億啦所以我們其實自己減了"},{"start":8064.465,"end":8091.08,"text":"我們自己已經檢了我跟委員報告真的我自己有檢你講的要檢討我也檢討所以是不是可以請委員支持我們我們可以把這個東西做書面報告跟委員做報告好啦你給他檢列一百萬這樣就好啦這個其實我檢列這個是要告訴你們因為有很多的預算你們沒有編進來需要用的不編阿沒需要你要放那個我擺爛的怎麼可以好不好那個一樣是專業服務費齁那個"},{"start":8092.856,"end":8092.876,"text":"15萬減100萬請說明"},{"start":8106.24,"end":8133.259,"text":"好那個16案我們主要是做那個因為委員關心的是我們對於整個未來的用電的需求那我們其實對運電需求都基本上我們從過去從用GDP成長率的估算方法演變到高用電戶額外加計的計算方法其實已經做了很多的調整所以我要跟委員報告就是說這一個部分就是研究方案費用"},{"start":8133.739,"end":8150.324,"text":"是不是能夠給我們支持這樣子尤其是這個牽涉到未來的一些電源開發還用電型態等等的一些相關的做法還有包括那個電能管理智慧化等等一些相關工作是不是可以讓我們來執行這個費用謝謝主席陽泉發言董事長的說明我們聽到了智能電表現在市佔率多少"},{"start":8162.788,"end":8190.688,"text":"現在300萬戶啦 對不對跟你們預期的呢那個跟委員報告戶數雖然300萬戶就兩成但是我的用電涵蓋範圍已經超過七成就是那個電量我可以管你的電量用電量已經超過我不知道你的表情是都是一種這種表情你講什麼都在笑我們的心急如魂你都在笑我是在我都不敢正視你"},{"start":8192.591,"end":8217.53,"text":"因為你只有300萬戶台灣總共多少萬戶?兩成你只有兩成兩成你滿意嗎?如果你依照你的KPI你應該是不滿意啦沒有KPI我沒有達成我們的KPI啦對啊那你沒有達成你的KPI我都要轉過來看記者了你沒有達成你的KPI你都可以笑這個當然情緒性我們不要我們直接來討論"},{"start":8222.313,"end":8250.432,"text":"第一個,你自己所研議的方案達不到你的KPI,次長在這裡沒有委員我有達成KPI,剛剛我說我有達成KPI第二個我跟你說,你說你研究發展的費用好,研究發展的費用你要研究我用高的低的怎麼樣怎麼樣都對這個大家很辛苦所以以往我們都全力支持但是支持一段時間預算我們會去看你的成效是怎麼樣"},{"start":8252.654,"end":8270.087,"text":"我們每一年都一直在鼓勵一直在鼓勵那但是呢就是說你研發你的電力的來源到目前為止跟你自己所研發的那個落差是都達到還是落差很大還是差不多我想來聽一下"},{"start":8270.816,"end":8284.188,"text":"那個智慧電表的安裝率事實上是按照目標在進行不是智慧電表就是研發你能源的來源你電力的來源你怎麼樣去省電也好還是電力的配置也好"},{"start":8286.295,"end":8288.976,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":8305.685,"end":8315.26,"text":"2050年的時候沒有碳嘛所以中間我們需要一些技術的發展譬如說我要如何把原來天然氣的這個燒天然氣的那個部分我要再加清"},{"start":8316.311,"end":8343.187,"text":"把清的比例慢慢拉高這是第一個我們要研究第二個就是說CCS也是一樣也是我們要研究的一個範疇再來比如說地熱也是它會結構這些東西都是我們在發展再生電源過程當中需要克服的一些困難這個是其中一個方向第二個方向就是穩定供電我的電廠比如說在經營的時候那如何確保它那個鍋爐破管"},{"start":8345.128,"end":8347.31,"text":"12月18日及19日二天一次會議12月18日及19日二天一次會議"},{"start":8374.709,"end":8389.601,"text":"謝謝董事長,謝謝總經理的說明。葉片的部分,你說要讓它不要破損,不管你是民營的來協助也好,那這個在國際在研議上面都必須跟國際接軌,這個似乎會比較輕鬆一點。"},{"start":8394.505,"end":8418.985,"text":"因為國際的研議他們的使用年限都比我們跑得更快當然不是後面的人就沒有更精進的方案只是我們有所依歸你會比較研議方面會怎麼樣精進它的成效一定會比較好那講到2050年其中有一個最重要的現在說2034年五美我們前"},{"start":8420.411,"end":8442.705,"text":"上個禮拜天每一年固定不管議事公會不管我們的這個環境環團團體這一些他每一年都會在台中市政府外面民眾大家會聚集去表示公民參政的一個權益他們會去表示他們的內容我們計算了"},{"start":8444.186,"end":8456.331,"text":"計算了如果依照目前政府告訴我們的怎麼樣爭氣包括剛剛總經理所說的這些方案那似乎那這個數字我們所需要的"},{"start":8459.209,"end":8480.997,"text":"我們應該是在2028年要五美所以那一天禮拜天我們在台中市政府的廣場我們的訴求就是2028年五美人民公民團團、醫醫師公會等都有提出這樣子的一個論述所以我也非常的希望董事長在這邊針對實際務實的數字"},{"start":8485.56,"end":8514,"text":"告訴民眾因為環團這一些公民參政已經有提出2028五美的台灣那我們政府在研議的部分有沒有幫我納入在這裡面這是我今天提的最重要的一個議題因為當天我跟羅天惠委員我們也都表達2028五美大家都簽署"},{"start":8514.7,"end":8540.555,"text":"所以既然民間團體已經提出政府部門在9億多沒有理由不將這個訊息去納入你們研議的這個方案我再次強調我們2028五美的這個論述是依照中華民國政府告訴我們的目前你們的能源來源以及目前執行中不管是蒸汽等等的方案我們實際的數字去計算出來"},{"start":8542.236,"end":8553.926,"text":"所以這個就是真正的理性討論我也希望董事長你要答應把你在9億6千多的這個預算你在研議研究方案裡頭必須要納入我們2028五美的這個議題好不好我們一起來幫助我們台灣嘛好不好下一位那個這是黑羽"},{"start":8568.248,"end":8586.637,"text":"謝謝主席那現在在討論到整個16案那是涉及到的一些台電針對這些發電的一個技術那我想要提醒台電一件事因為現在我們知道在光電的部分有很多早期的合約"},{"start":8587.817,"end":8604.305,"text":"就是說可能早期定了20年那他的一個合約已經都已經陸續到了要到期的時候那到期之後當然有可能他們會希望再展演那我想台電應該跟人員局去思考件事就是說因為早期的太陽冷的一個發電"},{"start":8605.899,"end":8629.551,"text":"這個光電板它的發電量跟現在的光電板它的技術的程式不一樣所以如果現在可以把早期的光電板汰換成現在發電量比較高的那這樣的話是不是有助於未來整體光電的發電量同樣的一個時間的效率下它可以發更多電那所以早期的這樣光電板它如果要繼續要"},{"start":8631.912,"end":8650.478,"text":"有一個新約還是說你們會怎麼合作我不知道但是我們應該在政策上應該要去要求他們如果要續約要繼續要用短壽電價賣給台電的話他們的光電板必須要換成效率更好的光電板好那這一點我希望台電可以去注意謝謝"},{"start":8653.905,"end":8662.728,"text":"那個等供合約應該到期要換新約啦換新約我想依照能源署未來長期的規劃那個設備在同樣的地點應該都要換新的設備謝謝委員好那個16號是楊委員提案楊委員你的要改"},{"start":8673.433,"end":8690.001,"text":"有關於那個前面那一題我這樣講就是關於怎麼樣子持續的檢探檢美等等的工作台電本來就是剛才提到的我們總經理說明到說這研究的項目裡面包括加薪包括做CCS等等其實都是為這些方向在做努力"},{"start":8692.912,"end":8693.012,"text":"主席"},{"start":8723.272,"end":8723.393,"text":"18日及19日"},{"start":8742.838,"end":8762.273,"text":"這個18案的部分因為核能發電的部分那因為核三廠25年5月17要除役了那邊列這麼多公關費的部分我建議著於簡略來董事長說明一下請台電說明來我們請那個我可不可以請核能副總直接跟您說明來請"},{"start":8764.167,"end":8787.054,"text":"報告委員,因為除非要是這個公關慰勞費主要是用在就是地方的外界的一些紅白鐵啦或者是住院慰問這一塊因為電廠廚藝可是服務的對外服務這一塊其實是比較沒有空間要繼續做啦簡單就是繼續做大概我目前的方向大概這樣"},{"start":8788.38,"end":8792.383,"text":"所以除役了但是要繼續做?"},{"start":8792.383,"end":8797.366,"text":"對 還有處理工作 公關慰問費這些錢是用在紅白鐵?"},{"start":8797.366,"end":8813.116,"text":"對 主要在地方還有一些地方人士住院的一些慰問金的這一塊差不多只有174萬 差不多175萬左右那我改凍結50%好不好 你們把提一些說明報告再行解凍 是"},{"start":8815.938,"end":8830.003,"text":"18萬,沒有動靜50萬,動靜50萬啦不是啊,動50萬好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦改組決議啦改組決議好啦楊卓宜你講啦改組決議改組決議是改組決議齁這天我跟你說你也要聽一年齁這陣容發廢啦我們會那個啦"},{"start":8842.076,"end":8842.897,"text":"報告主席,可以發言了嗎?"},{"start":8842.897,"end":8844.538,"text":"19案談的是這個福費用裡面的媒體政策跟業務宣傳費"},{"start":8870.927,"end":8887.363,"text":"我本來提案要檢列2500萬那這個案子有兩個大的問題一個就是之前有鬧出這個臺電把250萬用這個限制型的這個標案給了週一口的這個網路媒體"},{"start":8892.26,"end":8901.952,"text":"所以等一下如果有處理這個就是說以後不能再發生這種事情你要怎麼去杜絕不能變成說拿台電的人民納稅錢去養民進黨的側翼"},{"start":8905.006,"end":8919.293,"text":"這個要解決一個方案那第二個我知道 等一下 抗議一下什麼叫民進黨撤移 這個要抗議啦 周玉蔻跟民進黨不能這樣講 他沒有幫你們嗎 不是 你不能這樣講啦 周玉蔻有可能會對你抗議喔 我們也要對抗議 如果玉蔻不能講 那是民進黨撤移應該講什麼 不要把人家隨便扣上"},{"start":8925.236,"end":8931.518,"text":"昨天有個人主理 民進討論 那就讓社會去公平啦 是民進黨側翼還是說他是幫民進黨很重要的媒體人所以這筆錢就是以後不能再發生這種限制型的標案這是第一個 那第二個事實上這筆費用到了這個"},{"start":8948.576,"end":8969.184,"text":"草野協商、政黨協商我相信一定我也比其他各個單位的統三所以我會同意就是如果不用檢列的這個方式如果其他張家俊也沒有意見陳昌明也沒有意見我就把他改成先凍結2500萬然後你提出總之避免再發生座右擴這個事件到時候我們再來解凍好不好把檢列變成是凍結"},{"start":8972.017,"end":8972.337,"text":"是提書面報告嗎?"},{"start":8972.337,"end":8990.114,"text":"是提書面報告嗎?好,可以。你給我一個書面報告。 就是書面報告嘛。就是書面報告嘛。 20案是神超民視測案。 那家俊在不在?家俊不在。 那你那個張旗桿,你的提案多少?"},{"start":8990.114,"end":8990.134,"text":"來,楊君。"},{"start":8994.395,"end":9010.301,"text":"請我講話有有有來謝謝主席楊卓英不是主席是一名的求職委我是這樣子建議啦因為大家都非常的關心因為台電以前光光寄一個那個"},{"start":9013.143,"end":9034.878,"text":"這一點是我給台電這個肯定啦因為我上次看他就寄一個信喔就要五六百萬啦就那個紙本啦那因為我們都要減對我們都要紙本少紙化所以我們就逐步這個部分就減少我就很高興所以因為這樣高興我就有再進步"},{"start":9035.518,"end":9047.923,"text":"因為現在本來就是不能砍樹,那個要少子化,一直鼓勵大家嘛,所以現在這個額度一直在減,所以我認為這個4500萬,我是這樣建議大家聽聽看啦,我認為不要動那麼多啦,動1000萬,然後報告後使得動資,這樣子。"},{"start":9057.887,"end":9072.157,"text":"我不知道我的提議能不能得到各位同仁的支持。 主席是富裕,也蠻中肯的啦。 有啦,楊瓊、楊偉有在肯定台電的付出。 我也知道台電這個宣傳跟廣告上面,他在那個節電那一塊也做得很不錯啦。 這樣好不好?"},{"start":9073.718,"end":9084.066,"text":"要一千萬齁,我們這個凍結一千萬提出書面報告時﹖凍一千你只要﹖啊﹖書面報告啊﹖報告後你就可以凍屍﹖書面報告時﹖我這邊講啦,我這邊講﹖不是你們講﹖我這個﹖好﹖這個﹖你聽主委﹖處長有話講是吧﹖你要改組決議嗎﹖"},{"start":9099.526,"end":9123.713,"text":"你只要把書面就剛講什麼杜傑做一關的事件在發生來 凍結一千萬提出書面報告只要你書面來就解凍好不好我這邊宣布好不好主委來這邊宣布提出這個凍結一千萬提出書面報告使得凍失二十二案天文不再照列二十三案這是通案通案是最後一起處理還是怎麼樣因為是七千六百"},{"start":9126.256,"end":9144.929,"text":"七千六百你凍結一趴的話就凍結七十六億阿主席因為是那個林倩琦委員 我在因為阿主席最後再處理阿因為他有去經濟委員會我們幫他提請他給他說明一下嘛但是說明沒關係但是最後處理啦因為通話是最後處理來請林委員"},{"start":9147.697,"end":9165.542,"text":"張偉還有各位經濟委員會的同仁大家好這一案是因為我們一直對於台電的一些儲存的貨料的危險性跟它的消耗性還有它的效度有一些疑慮但是業務單位在說明的時候很可愛但是就是在我們提出來的相對的內容裡面"},{"start":9175.584,"end":9192.467,"text":"在資金的處理上還有那個周轉率我覺得相關單位可能在這個部分一直在說明上不是很精確所以我們最後達成的協議就是說在凍結的部分當然我這邊是一趴啦當然最後就尊重"},{"start":9193.447,"end":9216.353,"text":"經濟委員會的一個處理但是很重要就是這個書面我們在溝通的過程當中所提出來的書面的相關報告因為他們也來不及處理跟準備所以在書面給予我們後續的補足這個部分我是相對比較堅持的我建議你這個檯面是不是跟林建新委員約時間詳細就他關心的事項詳細做一個說明"},{"start":9220.214,"end":9223.036,"text":"有關備品管理的部分我們會被其書面的資料向委員說明"},{"start":9243.364,"end":9261.201,"text":"因為這個是最後才要討論,講到備品的部分,我本是要一個資料,因為台電負責這麼多,都垃圾在外面,外面這麼怕命,賣這麼多菇,我經常在說的,你賣這麼多菇,這個外面實在說,真的很辛苦,所以你"},{"start":9264.764,"end":9277.526,"text":"你們主管人要去怎麼樣開源節流你們的備品、您的農耗耗損率到底是多少?您應該要去總經理在這裡,您應該要去盤點您什麼東西,您的5年有多少?因為這很清楚的一件事情現在連農業"},{"start":9290.789,"end":9293.79,"text":"現在很多廠商的工廠就是我們的儲存廠、我們的倉庫。"},{"start":9316.437,"end":9333.774,"text":"學學王永慶先生、台塑他們的備品耗損率每一年一直低降你只要把這個當成一個課題你去盤點你所有的廠商你的工廠就是我的"},{"start":9335.305,"end":9359.659,"text":"我的成果第一個可以減少交這個運費第二個我們現在電腦資訊很方便我每天一直走一直走一星期每一天備容量你的時間需不需要保存那麼長因為第三個你如果持續依照以往的方式你要再去做成果"},{"start":9360.439,"end":9369.224,"text":"你還有管理人員那這些也都是在你的成本所以我覺得你們高級主管就是你要怎麼樣"},{"start":9371.019,"end":9396.209,"text":"開源要怎麼樣節流目前開源似乎有限那你的節原應該會對你們會多少有一些幫助而且我們如果依照舊的方式這樣子一持續不去精進我們台電公司是一間這麼大間牽絆的公司我們也會被人家嚇慌 對不對你拿有成功的企業他們的方式"},{"start":9397.649,"end":9424.316,"text":"包括現在很多的物流體系都已經在我們自己的工廠裡面的這個倉庫裡頭這樣在做所以你的耗損一定可以減少一定可以減少我希望你這個齁你們就是也書面資料一份給本席啦看你們要目前的狀態是怎樣啊你要怎麼去改啊有什麼種啊你的KPI改了可以增進多少"},{"start":9425.496,"end":9430.843,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":9442.455,"end":9442.615,"text":"主席"},{"start":9459.918,"end":9480.356,"text":"我知道我知道 二十四案政制委員不在我們就照列 報告委員會因為今天天氣很冷 而且又喝兩杯咖啡 喝兩杯咖啡大家休息五分鐘好不好 因為這些官員都沒有離席 我們休息一下五分鐘"},{"start":9787.338,"end":9794.444,"text":"好,我們繼續開會來,我們繼續處理25跟26來,25跟26陳昌明、張契凱的提案好,提案委員不在,我們照列27、28、29、30、31、32、33、33、27到32先請台電總統說明27到32"},{"start":9816.38,"end":9836.121,"text":"跟委員報告二期到三的主要這一個項目是火力發電裡面的燃料費用那包含天然氣跟燃煤那這幾年來事實上我們整個燃煤跟燃氣的使用趨勢是這樣燃煤的使用量事實上是陸續在下降"},{"start":9836.741,"end":9853.579,"text":"那因為要因應現在用電的成長所以燃氣的部分會有所成長那基本上就台電的大方向來講就是在穩定供電的前提之下我們還是朝向減碳的方式來做電力調度要請"},{"start":9868.917,"end":9869.558,"text":"本期提案3.20%"},{"start":9880.589,"end":9881.13,"text":"我提出簡略的這個"},{"start":9897.864,"end":9921.177,"text":"五百億這個跟剛剛楊瓊英、楊偉銘提的這個額度大概是差不多的重點這裡面有幾個重點啦當然不要再燒不要再燃煤這是國家既定的政策嘛對不對無碳這是一定要走的所以我們要盡量貫徹特別我要提醒上個月啊因為那個河山廠的二號機不是"},{"start":9922.952,"end":9927.629,"text":"稅休嘛齁那時候我們台灣就是非核家園了就那時候出現了啦"},{"start":9929.369,"end":9932.67,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9958.874,"end":9959.054,"text":"張艾俊"},{"start":9989.309,"end":10013.634,"text":"我是31案就是我檢列的當然是可能比較少但我贊同就是張其凱委員跟楊瓊英委員就是檢列250億然後因為這個案子是有關於就是跟中國有點關係所以這是廖偉祥委員請我代替的所以也希望說台電也可以向廖偉祥委員就是做一個說明謝謝"},{"start":10018.007,"end":10027.116,"text":"來 等一下 那個這位 柳亭偉 柳亭偉 柳亭偉之後就要處理了"},{"start":10037.216,"end":10062.398,"text":"好 其實我們都是中部的 那都會影響到 那基本上呢 31案跟瓊瑛委員的這一案 30案 我們都是希望能夠有簡略 那大幅度的簡略購買預算以上 那我想至少要250億以上 那以上報告好 那個 等一下 來接下來請那個 陳理會 陳理會之後那個邱瑩"},{"start":10066.877,"end":10089.425,"text":"這個購買預算的這個部分我覺得這個我們現在已經在能源整個非常重要的關鍵去刪這個預算我不知道用意為何因為如果刪了之後到時候又說沒有辦法有足夠的這個供電的一些動能那該怎麼辦"},{"start":10090.325,"end":10100.797,"text":"所以我覺得我們好像似乎沒有辦法這樣去負責這麼大的一個壓力所以我還是認為應該要遠列所有的預算"},{"start":10106.015,"end":10112.998,"text":"我本來是要問一下你們那個購煤的量有比往年增加嗎?減少所以你這個預算數其實也是減少的嗎?減少了將近300億如果我們再往下壓呢?跟委員報告我們今年其實對不起因為要統達啦是不是那個"},{"start":10136.505,"end":10143.313,"text":"剛剛楊瓊英委員有問嘛,你要不要就...我們一次統答好嗎?各位請正統一次,一次答覆,一次答覆"},{"start":10148.41,"end":10165.788,"text":"有關於燃料的部分,就是剛才章節海委員提到的,他那個簡列251區全部就是含燃氣和燃煤所以這個規模要先對稱,這是第一個部分第二個部分有關燃煤用量的部分,113年就今年的預算是2500萬噸"},{"start":10168.391,"end":10181.469,"text":"到明年的預算是2200萬噸差了300萬噸我們已經開始往下減預算金額也差了將近300億所以我們其實已經自己先減跟委員報告"},{"start":10184.924,"end":10189.807,"text":"我們已經先減了300億,減量也減了300萬噸減500億的規模就減掉了一半,那個是完全無法執行的委員你的預算數是4073億"},{"start":10210.93,"end":10215.273,"text":"國內的供電穩定是台電的義務我們現在加緊在做這些工作過去這幾年也是減煤減得最顯著的幾年我向委員報告"},{"start":10242.429,"end":10243.37,"text":"是減少的?"},{"start":10243.37,"end":10243.39,"text":"是。"},{"start":10253.695,"end":10258.478,"text":"主席 主席發言一下 這個4703億包括藍企跟藍煤 我們主要是針對藍煤的部分嘛 煤的部分是1051億嘛 對 因為你們已經減了300萬噸了嘛 是 相當於金額是多少錢"},{"start":10278.319,"end":10282.102,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":10305.882,"end":10333.392,"text":"章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家俊跟廖偉祥的案子31案章家"},{"start":10334.147,"end":10357.568,"text":"不是啦,這是解決我什麼意義嘛也要看我的啊我是看你的提案,我是建議嘛大家來討論一下來討論一下不是看同仁啦,來這樣啦,我們效果是什麼"},{"start":10363.661,"end":10366.363,"text":"那個...不然20%我們做不過啦..."},{"start":10390.819,"end":10391.26,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10403.408,"end":10403.728,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10425.7,"end":10426.161,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10446.54,"end":10446.8,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10471.889,"end":10472.57,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10492.426,"end":10493.167,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":10539.537,"end":10544.96,"text":"好!好!來!好!來!主席給我講一下啦!"},{"start":10547.128,"end":10547.188,"text":"主席"},{"start":10566.098,"end":10593.582,"text":"我就來處理主席各位同仁我要講一下邱瑞文首選區有一個興達電廠我的選區有兩個大林電廠跟南部火力發電廠都是火力的我們比大家都更希望整個改善空污我們比大家都更希望但是有一點還是要請大家考慮到就是說現在他們已經減掉了300億努力在減了但是缺電是大家無法接受的所以如果再這樣下去而且"},{"start":10594.242,"end":10622.407,"text":"燃煤跟火力現在又是主力了大家可能已經沒有了那火力是主力那如果燃煤又涉及到一些國家安全的問題我們如果再這樣撿下去的話如果讓台電是將來有面臨到缺電的問題的時候你們又要罵了大家又要罵了全民又要罵所以我是建議這個真的請大家可以凍結但是不要刪我相信他們已經盡了最大努力他們已經自己刪掉了300億了那我們如果再給他刪的話我希望用凍結的方式那請他們繼續改善但是保留一點點彈性給他們"},{"start":10628.111,"end":10650.95,"text":"主席就是凍結然後專案報告啦就是說不要說那個用專案報告他要再凍製的話為什麼還要再凍製這些錢好不好我的意見跟那一種的一致沒有沒有沒有事實上這筆預算我們要求要整理在裡面也是希望說都用一些遞證在身那邊今天沒有共識我們最後再來處理啦最後再來處理今天先出去其他行"},{"start":10652.771,"end":10679.387,"text":"二十七案到三十二我們等到最後再處理來三十三、三十四啊來蔡宇宇不在我們照列三十四議員改組決議三十五啊這個主席改組決議那三十六經費太奇怪了對他要增加預算"},{"start":10680.858,"end":10701.414,"text":"事案16請說明根委員報告,輔助服務費用主要是電網穩定的相關費用其實在再生能源滲透率越高的時候輔助服務等等相關的費用就會增加所以這個部分原則上是這樣我們會編列但我們也會遵截使用"},{"start":10702.849,"end":10711.413,"text":"什麼叫電網穩定的服務就是我們要維持電網的頻率啦就是因為它的供需要能夠在同一個量上面差距大就會讓頻率變好那這個不是都是整個都是電腦化科技化的一個數據控制嗎對所以這個要工具這個是科技化你這個是要買工具還是要用人還是要怎麼樣你沒有寫清楚啊你到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":10730.02,"end":10734.681,"text":"我希望那個報告主席齁這個我要那個凍結一千萬齁然後書面報告時的通知"},{"start":10753.094,"end":10753.914,"text":"36案凍結36案凍結36案凍結36案凍結36案凍結36案凍結36案凍結"},{"start":10780.363,"end":10800.74,"text":"來那個要不要台電說明一下 台電請說明火力火力發電費用主要是就是所有的火力相關的一些費用然後當然最主要的費用是來自於燃料費他最主要來自燃料費又剛才前面檢案審查的時候是審查各種那個就是"},{"start":10802.223,"end":10820.843,"text":"預算的類型那現在是審查系統就是火力的部分那這裡面包含了火力等等相關的總體的費用都在裡面那委員關心的是說我們能源結構的調整那我我們未來當然是要朝向近臨那在火力發電的部分"},{"start":10821.944,"end":10835.238,"text":"目前這個階段我們的方向是因為要因應我們用電成長的高速成長我們基本上是用空污跟那個碳排比較少的天然氣來補足目前的供電的需求"},{"start":10837.455,"end":10866.466,"text":"我再問一下你們現在的那個火力發電的整個量還是到八成以上那燃煤跟燃氣的比例上面有在做一些調節嗎現在就是燃氣會一直提高燃煤會下降一直下降會下降到什麼樣的2025年那個2025年燃煤應該可以降到30%左右不會再增加會比今年再更低2024年再更低"},{"start":10867.742,"end":10882.223,"text":"因為跟委員報告就會牽涉到用電量啦齁就這個用電量最後邊際增加多少他其實帶動了我一定是再生能源先他河山二號機現在在運轉他也是優先然後接下來是燃氣會優先最後是燃煤"},{"start":10884.362,"end":10886.343,"text":"事實案談的是智慧電表啦剛剛已經有提過嘛,普及力還不夠嘛"},{"start":10901.412,"end":10928.968,"text":"剛才楊瓊、楊偉在說 文森美思、達成都缺了一批那300萬戶真的太少 趕快加強這是一個第二個還有兩個大的問題 是現行這個電表啊 這個立法院的預算中心就是說 現在出新聞他提出來說現行電表出廠的時候沒有內建通信這個模組 所以他需要現場去安裝導致安裝的過程啊耗費大量的人力跟時間且因為現場這個有環境的限制增加了執行難度"},{"start":10930.009,"end":10945.996,"text":"此外啊 這個智慧電表雖然具有這個遠端的這個讀表這個功能但是缺乏遠端程式更新的能力必須由人員現場逐一去更新所以我請我們先凍結這部分的預算然後請提出來趕快怎麼改善提出來之後"},{"start":10947.176,"end":10965.529,"text":"各位報告您關心的問題我們已經解決了我要跟您報告就是因為是之前啦我們今年已經陸陸續續解決了我們現在拔內建了我們把書面報告我可不可以提書面報告改到什麼程度啊要給我具體的好不好先凍結然後改完之後就解凍這筆預算"},{"start":10968.831,"end":10969.351,"text":"42案事實上是幫我們辛苦的基層的"},{"start":10994.532,"end":11017.451,"text":"臺電的這個員工爭取應該有的這個福利這個我已經在質詢部長的時候問了兩次了就是風台梯來的時候你很快這麼多風台來結果我們的臺電的基層員工要去搶修要去搶修那個真的是非常危險的風台梯然後爬那麼高的電線桿上去風隨時又會吹過來結果呢碰到兩個問題第一個"},{"start":11019.605,"end":11037.588,"text":"危險就是上去的危險交集非常少到目前好像一個小時只有105塊嘛我知道你們跟我講說最近剛調過可是真的還是非常低我問最簡單的文生這樣有去爬你媽去總經理那紅台爹叫你一張針抱我哭抱著生命危險你要不要所以我明確的要求至少要調高到200塊"},{"start":11038.885,"end":11060.617,"text":"好不好這是一個那另外還有一個問題就是他你們變成要各個區的這個處長宣布完之後例如說如果在嘉義市嘉義市長宣布不算啊你們要當地的這個當地的這個台電的處長宣布才算我覺得這個也不合理應該就是比照只要當地的縣市長在基隆只要是基隆市長宣布在高雄只要高雄市長宣布就進入這個加急的這個時間點好不好"},{"start":11062.962,"end":11081.56,"text":"跟委員報告,就是說我們會把這些工作都一併來考量,因為我們也遇過就是宣布以後其實颱風就沒有從那個地方來,類似這些事,我想說包含這些相關的工作我們都會來執行,我先把前提講完,就是沒有發生搶修啊,事實是沒有發生嘛,"},{"start":11087.847,"end":11102.879,"text":"就是我要講的是他有講修有講修我們絕對鼓勵我們不可能所以就不要脫屁脫褲子放屁啊就是縣市長決定就好啦對不對你為什麼要你當地的處長再宣布一次這個就有時間差嘛"},{"start":11103.539,"end":11104.219,"text":"我們所有的區處的處長要跟地方政府配合他們原則上"},{"start":11119.665,"end":11138.847,"text":"都會去跟這些地方政府的一些決定做合作這是確定的但他們有他們管理的一些工作你說完完全全就全部都是這樣那我講一個最簡單的是我們現在還有颱風還沒來我比方說是離島我就提前派了"},{"start":11139.568,"end":11148.48,"text":"我就要提前派所以我一定要給我的主管同仁有一點點的權限但你說的地方的首長都已經宣布了我們教育委員會這個宣布我們不會這樣做"},{"start":11151.696,"end":11156.88,"text":"因為你這樣子就每一個樣子每一個工作每一個工作都會加上去因為你這樣子就每一個樣子每一個工作都會加上去"},{"start":11181.936,"end":11183.237,"text":"高雄市長陳其邁宣布了"},{"start":11211.856,"end":11213.437,"text":"臺電的補助預算臺電基金也影響到我們恢復電力"},{"start":11230.362,"end":11231.863,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11252.611,"end":11267.529,"text":"謝謝主席關於台電員工的這些安全的問題跟工作加擠危險工作加擠的部分我在質詢社也特別提到了我是完全支持所以我覺得台電可能剛剛我們既然主決議有講你們一個月內要去檢討"},{"start":11268.51,"end":11282.12,"text":"是不是還要再提升的這一些危險加急的部分我期待台電能夠趕快去做那如果是這樣的話是不是也能夠請張啟凱委員就不要再凍結了因為我們如果支持他們我們去把這個預算又凍結10%邏輯上好像有一點怪怪的"},{"start":11285.442,"end":11302.458,"text":"至於說是不是縣市長一下令之後就要開始計算那個危險佳績我倒覺得這個應該是讓區處的工作同仁有一些裁量權不然你像這次山陀而來高雄無風無雨了三天吧"},{"start":11303.098,"end":11324.929,"text":"那這個計算也有一點奇怪我倒是覺得台電不管你有沒有宣布停班停課只要是風災來的時候每一個人都已經是在全員戒備的一個狀態了我覺得那個裁量權應該是讓整個公司的管理階層我認為應該要更人性化而且更機動性配合度等等的我覺得這個應該是提升"},{"start":11328.71,"end":11341.834,"text":"我覺得公司應該要去提升這一方面的整個管理程序啦那至於加急的部分我認為其實是應該可以如果可以的話其實應該要給同仁更多的這些鼓勵啦我想"},{"start":11354.107,"end":11368.764,"text":"台風特別是在的時候大家出去出行其實也相當辛苦然後我也支持要給予更那個但是確實就是說也要給台電公司有些彈性因為比如像高雄就這麼大的範圍啦光比如說他可能台風進來在"},{"start":11370.306,"end":11389.672,"text":"前陣小港上來那時候當然很可怕那幾乎非常危險出去工作非常危險可是我也聽到很多那時候在比較山區甚至在台南跟我說他們遠遠看他們那邊沒什麼風雨但是在前陣已經是狂風暴雨了所以我覺得那個要因應當地的狀況不然因應整個全部的那當然就市長腳上可能從嚴去做出議但是我覺得以現場"},{"start":11390.552,"end":11405.698,"text":"那這樣我們才會把有限資源達到最好的一個配置啦所以我希望一方面大家支持台電的經費不要去影響到這個經費一方面該撥補的支持他們可以支持那台電才有更多的餘裕去爭取給員工更多照顧"},{"start":11406.338,"end":11422.784,"text":"至於增加多少我建議這要尊重台電的專業評估因為這個會牽扯到你們內部的財務的問題還有員工間的一些公平性的問題這個我覺得要尊重所以我想整體上面我希望這個案件不要去刪減或保留希望能夠多支持台電的經費 謝謝"},{"start":11425.325,"end":11449.978,"text":"謝謝我想大家都是一致的就是說對於我們台電員工的危險加急的部分我們認為應該要台電要好好思考因為我們真的看到很多台電員工都是冒著生命危險而且在這個風大雨大的時候必須又要兼顧大家用電的一個狀況都在搶修所以我覺得這個部分確實要所以我們認為說"},{"start":11453.22,"end":11471.098,"text":"今天不是用凍結 既然我們大家有一致性就用主決議 主決議之後我們就要求我們的台電對於所有的危險佳績要怎麼去檢討甚至是不是停班停課 因為我告訴你台電的所有的第一線的基層員工 我跟你講"},{"start":11472.319,"end":11496.448,"text":"有時候沒有停班停課那個風大到他們還是要冒著生命危險欸 對不對這個不是停班停課的問題所以我覺得不要定義在停班停課是說在我們幾級風或是多少的雨量的狀況我們應該有多少的一個加級或怎麼樣我就應該訂定這樣的標準不是停班停課我等一下停班停課全部沒風沒雨哥哥"},{"start":11497.048,"end":11520.127,"text":"真的沒有停班停課反而是那種風大到讓你騎在那裡就沒辦法去站著了結果我們台電的員工要回去到電管去處理而且其實我們最大的問題是整個樹然後倒向我們的一個這個電線他們是要去排除耶那個都是極盡危險的所以我們認為訂標準是不是用"},{"start":11521.008,"end":11521.388,"text":"我們休息60秒"},{"start":11624.375,"end":11626.016,"text":"我們一個禮拜內送報告給委員"},{"start":11648.64,"end":11664.025,"text":"我們有跟委員報告過我們是不是一個禮拜之內把這個相關的內容書面資料送給委員那是不是改成組決議?一個禮拜是不是?是因為這個這一題我們有先做了一些準備好那我們事實上就改成組決議齁正委員好改成組決議來45來張祺凱"},{"start":11673.969,"end":11700.347,"text":"45案我在主要我希望可以先凍結2億的原因是因為這個台電最近在這個執行能源轉型的時候出現了一些狀況特別是在推動這個非核家園的政策積極要推動這個非核能源跟各項這個電力計畫的時候發生了一些問題部分電力的興建還有更新這個計畫遭到民眾這個抗爭之後看起來到目前都沒有解決"},{"start":11701.167,"end":11716.8,"text":"而且我看每次經濟部長到曾董事長每次都在那邊呼籲說那你們要讓我蓋啊要不然電就不夠啊所以我要求你們在一個月內要提出一個書面報告看怎麼去化解這個問題那先凍結兩議員等那個報告過來以後我們再來解凍 謝謝來這個這個台電信討論好我們書面報告凍結兩個好一個月內的提書面報告"},{"start":11731.419,"end":11732.801,"text":"16、17 曾振淺跟戴瑞榮"},{"start":11748.485,"end":11776.35,"text":"好 那個利息的部分因為這幾年確實從278億到300億到320億持續的增加那當然我們也看到了其實政府也預定要做撥補那當然現在撥補沒有定案如果撥補下去我相信這個利息費用可以減低所以我本來是用減類1億元因為那個撥補還沒有定案所以我就把它改成凍結1億元那希望俊傑使用希望台電努力節省這個利息的支出我改凍結1億元"},{"start":11781.25,"end":11801.132,"text":"同樣的理由因為那個利息明年預計要320億那比前年增加13億所以我原本也是希望說能夠把他給那個三減利息就是減裂10億元不過剛才若有人這邊說覺得用凍結的方式我這邊也同意用凍結的方式來做處理以上 謝謝"},{"start":11802.353,"end":11818.261,"text":"來台電打封一下來台電說明一下交書面報告我們利率已經降低了啦但是總量的部分我們會努力來增進46事項凍結多少?一億凍結一億一億啊凍結一億對有凍結一億來48張家俊"},{"start":11834.677,"end":11853.99,"text":"基本上部長有說過國營企業在沒有政治考量下應該要創造盈餘是企業存在的基本價值否則它存在的意義為何因想方設法的最起碼不虧錢然而台電這5年從110到114年編列的資產報費損失除了111年以外"},{"start":11861.075,"end":11877.071,"text":"其他年度雖然有逐漸下降的趨勢但預算數能超過10億元這不是一筆小數目所以我覺得這個成效損失的成效有限就是這個"},{"start":11879.232,"end":11905.29,"text":"降低資產報費損失的成效有限所以我才提出說是不是為了避免它繼續擴大這個營運虧損應該還是要減少減劣這樣子跟委員報告因為這個它叫做資產報費其實最主要的原因就是我本來是架空線但我因為環境變更需要變成下地下地就變另外一邊資產"},{"start":11906.411,"end":11929.805,"text":"原來的架空如果還沒到年限就必須報廢類似這些事情其實是整個電力設備的改良才產生的報廢不是我們沒有去珍惜這些設備所以請委員亮解所以你意思就是說這10億元你一年會就是把它下地然後類似下地這些事還有一些電力設備那所以可見你下地的規模是蠻大的阿為什麼我們雲林都沒有下地呢"},{"start":11934.42,"end":11940.084,"text":"跟委員報告整個台灣有很多地方那個經費電纜設備非常的貴那個我可以請會計處我可以請會計處我可以請會計處去跟您說細節的說明那個雲林也有雲林的下地的費用有嗎?是多少?那個配電你們手上"},{"start":11961.406,"end":11989.127,"text":"這個可能要跟這個張委員詳細的說明啊他可能有做他都不知道是不是你們都講不出來嘛不是一定有的你說這個是下地的這個耗費的那個你說之前的那個電纜那怎麼會那個10億元真的沒有非常多啦我們有的時候一條主幹線就上百億的就有所以我刪你2000也沒有很多啊是不是主席英明啊"},{"start":11990.848,"end":12010.58,"text":"我已經迷失了你不要糊塗一時我沒有說什麼,什麼都沒說才2000塊他覺得10億也沒什麼就是因為這種態度他們才會降不下來報告委員我們的金額就像跟剛才說的每年都在下降了我只是說效率不夠還有其他委員會發言那個張新凱"},{"start":12017.523,"end":12021.605,"text":"就像張委員所說的就是說在我們這樣的一個防衛狀態如果說我們沒有實質有需要這麼多那是有真的是這樣嗎?"},{"start":12039.568,"end":12053.038,"text":"沒有跟委員報告我們這幾年其實這一個經費在下降這是第一個第一個重點那第二個重點就是說他其實執行真的是因為所有的這些電路設備包括要時間還沒到要擴張"},{"start":12055.64,"end":12057.682,"text":"所以最主要是因為他那個更換的時候小變大"},{"start":12080.143,"end":12106.769,"text":"或是有做其他的變動的話上變下所以有些都那個器材都還沒有到報廢年限你根本就沒有辦法報廢嘛所以還是要我可以用的我還有繼續撈的因為它連土木的東西都會廢掉所以你們每年自己都減少多少?你像今年跟去年你們是減少多少?我們112年決算數是15億"},{"start":12110.248,"end":12111.875,"text":"去2023年的決算數是15億我今年編10億"},{"start":12117.421,"end":12125.028,"text":"了解 好 那我覺得 不要啦 不要解密這個啦他2023的決算已經是15億了 要自己已經編10億了啦我覺得應該要圓滅啦你動啊 書面報告啦"},{"start":12140.182,"end":12140.362,"text":"主席,針對4949案,有編這個"},{"start":12164.963,"end":12190.172,"text":"合適資產維護管理的預算根據主計總署編定之營業基金會計科目的名稱跟編號的參考表其中損失與賠償給付科目定義為非各種損失與賠償給付皆屬之由於台電公司在損失跟賠償給付的科目下在區分"},{"start":12192.112,"end":12211.582,"text":"資產意外事故損失跟台電資產維護管理這兩項那這兩者都是不符合這個定義這個用途是不符合這個定義的由於這個核四目前看起來是重啟無望"},{"start":12212.022,"end":12228.183,"text":"楊勳"},{"start":12229.063,"end":12247.651,"text":"我想委員想要了解內容這是擔負人民所授予的責任跟義務所以我覺得像如果像是委員有疑慮的那凍結然後報告室的凍結我覺得這是很好的我們就不要再浪費不要再運用很多時間去討論"},{"start":12250.452,"end":12273.722,"text":"那這樣子雙方都可以得到答案這是我的建議 凍結然後報告後使得動之以上建議 台電先回覆一下好那個主要是委員提官問到有關預算科目啦那預算科目其實是循著主計的一個相關的規範來的那也不是台電自己做主不過委員要關心這一個題目台電公司當然可以提書面報告"},{"start":12281.445,"end":12281.465,"text":"謝謝瓊瑛姊"},{"start":12308.098,"end":12312.502,"text":"直接結束啦 又不好處理完很快啊一下就處理完了啦 不會啦 不會很久啦"},{"start":12337.438,"end":12340,"text":"主席一年主席現在57分而已"},{"start":12364.655,"end":12382.939,"text":"全委會懇請主席繼續審查 主席是英明 但是大家身體也要注意好 天氣寒冷 不過我是說現在先休息一下啦 不會啦 不會啦 大家如果凍結報告時那公司就沒有爭議啦 休息五分鐘啦 休息五分鐘"},{"start":12393.046,"end":12393.086,"text":"議員﹚發言人﹚"},{"start":12421.61,"end":12422.01,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12436.409,"end":12436.79,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12455.152,"end":12455.712,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12483.179,"end":12483.519,"text":"主席"},{"start":12509.533,"end":12509.693,"text":"委員會委員會議"},{"start":12530.022,"end":12543.67,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":12557.879,"end":12558.12,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12586.323,"end":12612.466,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":12614.122,"end":12614.142,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":12623.531,"end":12627.974,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":12649.98,"end":12650,"text":"經濟委員會"},{"start":12680.265,"end":12692.228,"text":"處理重大建設事業部分固定資產的建設改良擴充50-51本席提案"},{"start":12707.397,"end":12708.038,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12727.286,"end":12734.229,"text":"參與委員不在我們就照列那53、54跟陳昌明直接說啦你們的建議啦"},{"start":12741.6,"end":12743.861,"text":"動結1億好不好?"},{"start":12743.861,"end":12752.845,"text":"好啦動結1億提出說明報告使得動資來56賴瑞榮我建議要加速協和電廠我直接提議齁動結1000萬說明報告動資好56萬動結1000萬提出說明報告使得動資好57581100不在來賴瑞榮58一樣齁要求台灣電廠這個一定要加速啦齁動結1000萬齁這個說明報告動資"},{"start":12768.072,"end":12769.613,"text":"動結一切萬事提出順便報告使得動詞59改組決議60改組決議61改組決議"},{"start":12794.665,"end":12810.869,"text":"62到65張家俊、李玉琳、邱怡銀、邱志偉64改組決議65主席也改組決議來李玉琳不在62張家俊62改組決議63李玉琳改組決議6667、68一起處理"},{"start":12822.616,"end":12822.757,"text":"動議宣告"},{"start":12838.434,"end":12843.378,"text":"動1千萬提出書面報告使得動之。 69衰離不在支援招列。70案衰離不在支援招列。"},{"start":12864.485,"end":12865.666,"text":"同樣要求加快電網計劃動一千萬改組決議七十七案改成組決議七十八"},{"start":12889.574,"end":12896.661,"text":"有跟委員報告委員已經同意修正文字我們一道修正文字辦理好我們按照修正文字通過79遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":12913.484,"end":12918.067,"text":"遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":12940.743,"end":12951.309,"text":"遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":12966.101,"end":12989.957,"text":"101102103104105106"},{"start":12990.936,"end":12995.919,"text":"105按照修正文字通過104按照修正文字通過105遵照辦理106遵照辦理107遵照辦理108遵照辦理我們回過頭來處理剛才保留的部分27到這個32"},{"start":13022.788,"end":13030.599,"text":"來,我們來協調一下,來那個張先生我堅持還是減類五百億齁然後明訂裡面至少要減少兩百萬噸的煤不是,來陳…楊卓銘"},{"start":13036.216,"end":13044.906,"text":"本席提案第30案跟羅廷偉那我們的提案是減略20%等於是減略200萬但是我贊成這個期待委員的250億那同時減量的部分也同樣是減200萬噸每一個部分"},{"start":13059.987,"end":13060.608,"text":"張家俊之後的楊瓊玉、張祺楷"},{"start":13085.333,"end":13102.09,"text":"張啟凱"},{"start":13104.09,"end":13123.789,"text":"對阿 我是堅持要3減500啦我提醒大家一下齁我剛剛一直在提醒那個那幾天那個中火跟賣料全開的大家去查一下資料11月14日及15日是台電10個燒名的機組是全開的阿民間的也都全開了那這個事情在最近為了大家的健康我覺得這不能這樣鋪啦"},{"start":13124.309,"end":13125.93,"text":"我首先要請教容許我跟他對話一下齁"},{"start":13156.633,"end":13175.679,"text":"請問到底台電您剛剛所說的明年減300萬噸的煤嘛對不對還有沒有空間依照我們每年逐年減碳我們有空間還多少因為你從頭到尾都告訴我們說你明年減300萬噸嘛對不對"},{"start":13178.8,"end":13179.04,"text":"請針對議題提問回答好嗎?"},{"start":13200.57,"end":13221.777,"text":"因為剛剛這麼久的討論您都是告訴我們總經理告訴我們都說我明年已經比今年減了300萬噸是不是那是預算對對你希望的嘛是不是你已經比明年減300萬噸嘛對不對今年的預算少300萬噸2025比2024少300萬噸對就是你明年比今年會減300萬噸是所以你認為你有在減嘛對不對"},{"start":13230.2,"end":13237.082,"text":"是不是 是是不是 是是我告訴你我要給全國的民眾說新達電廠明年你會停掉兩部機新達電廠的四部燃煤機組一年你們要600萬噸 對不對兩部機是300萬噸 對不對新達的機組今年就停掉兩部機了"},{"start":13254.608,"end":13262.036,"text":"當然所以你兩部機是300萬噸對不對今年停掉明年會不會停請告訴我明年只要在八個還是要運轉明年會不會停他不是停"},{"start":13270.447,"end":13273.993,"text":"就明年的興達機組就不是停它是8%以下它就要啟動對啊就是預估對啊有可能8%以下就要啟動所以你兩部機就是300萬噸嘛依照標準的不是這樣子算的不是這樣子我們大家講清楚"},{"start":13285.851,"end":13290.795,"text":"因為你一直告訴我們明年你今年就停那個新打兩部機兩部機大概藍莓的部分就是300萬噸你明年你告訴我們你明年有可能會停沒關係你現在告訴我8%8%以下你就要啟動它繼續燒但是在你兩部機基本照你的網利是300萬噸"},{"start":13311.972,"end":13326.597,"text":"你不要拿你明年減300萬噸來告訴我們除非你明年你的這個電壓都是8%以下你敢這麼說嗎 對不對不可以這樣欺騙老百姓所以我堅持我們這個部分就是減300億那減200萬噸因為其他人舉手我要讓其他同仁有發言機會"},{"start":13338.882,"end":13361.783,"text":"蘇貞瑩議員"},{"start":13363.007,"end":13388.334,"text":"大家都希望招商大家都希望經濟發展大家都希望產業發展那大家也都希望用電量能夠安全穩定有電可用那我覺得這個時候其實台電已經刪了300億的這個已經努力在做這件事情了但是現在如果這樣刪了有可能因為他給了他不見得他能不用當然盡量不用但是萬一將來用電量持續在增加的時候招商非常順利或人民的用電量明年增加的時候"},{"start":13389.301,"end":13407.26,"text":"你要留一些餘裕給他這不僅是經濟安全同時也是國家安全的問題所以我是真的希望台電電力是一個非常專業的沒有人可以敢開玩笑那是不是請因為經濟委員會都非常的專業那我希望大家是不是能夠支持這樣的預算因為如果能夠減那當然台電已經減了那如果真的"},{"start":13407.981,"end":13422.352,"text":"在這樣刪下去我是擔心他們的電力一旦出問題那明年電力出的狀況這恐怕沒有人負擔得起所以我希望大家能夠不要刪減那如果真的還是無法達成共識那我會建議就保留給蔡偉湘整個專業處理張佳鈞"},{"start":13426.401,"end":13433.864,"text":"我想要就是讓董事長知道說為什麼這麼多委員都堅持說一定要三三百億然後要減少兩百萬噸的用煤的這個量為什麼因為這個中火影響的不只是台中你知道我們斗六我們雲林斗六是常常都止爆那個空氣汙染的指數是影響了廣大的民眾包括非常多的孩子所以我也很希望說當然"},{"start":13454.053,"end":13474.926,"text":"你不確定是你的能源政策要調整怎麼會要犧牲我們所有民眾的健康來完成這件事呢怎麼會講說如果你減少碳會影響我們的用電那我覺得這是不合理的我本來不想講這麼多但我覺得這樣太不合理了所以我再一次呼應這個張祺凱委員跟楊承英委員謝謝"},{"start":13486.5,"end":13500.331,"text":"這裏面真正的解藥也是最關鍵的就是政府跟台電一直跟我們講沒有缺電可是老是缺電在或者是緊急到只剩下備載容量8%所以必須去燃煤"},{"start":13502.404,"end":13509.455,"text":"這是裡面最真正的關鍵 那麼為什麼要堅持至少要三減減裂300億而且至少要減200萬噸的這個煤"},{"start":13511.752,"end":13538.454,"text":"因為民進黨政委跟我們講阿 你們要去推再生能源幹不是第一個你們不缺電 你們要提再生能源 你看每年明年你的標準是多少現在11%的再生能源 你們到今年 明年年底要到15% 16%欸你當初就有電阿 你為什麼要再燒 為什麼要再燒煤所以煤當然是要砍的阿 這是你們的政策阿 所以你們要跟人民講真相我剛剛跟曾董事長講 你說沒有實務基礎全開 我等一下給你看資料"},{"start":13539.315,"end":13557.642,"text":"11月18日及19日二天就是台電石舖燃煤的基礎全開啊而且裡面很嚴重的我告訴你就是因為你們沒有把再生能源的這個比例趕快如期去升高包括地熱你們要好好去用對不對包括核能明明是最便宜的又無碳你們也不要"},{"start":13558.402,"end":13559.503,"text":"最後一位那個誰那個廖偉強廖偉強我們應該處理好"},{"start":13587.267,"end":13615.642,"text":"第一個這還是回過頭來這個能源政策配比的問題其實犧牲了大部分的健康還有能源安全的問題其實也不只是我們自己擔心能源安全這個包含著可能一些國外的比如說美國商會或是一些外國人也很擔心我們的能源自主的問題那當然為什麼特別是這個坎梅的部分就是有關於我們現在中火的問題那其實我也想要問"},{"start":13617.163,"end":13644.057,"text":"我想問一下到時候你也可以回去問一下經濟部長他有沒有覺得二期二期的天然氣為什麼最終結束還要留下六座燃煤機組為什麼為什麼沒有辦法拆一減一至少我想這連部長自己都很納悶啊憑良心講這個可能連部長自己都很納悶為什麼沒有辦法做到這件事然後你說留下來的是憑良心講你說國安危機是不是怕打仗"},{"start":13645.319,"end":13670.125,"text":"那如果你你如果真的是電購的情況之下你留在那裡照理說不應該開嘛但是你如果留在那裡台中部人最擔心的是什麼你電不足的情況之下你就可以把它開啟繼續用廢來發電那多的兩支機組你繼續燃煤讓台中人來這個用廢發電讓中部人來用廢發電這是我們最不解的地方喔所以"},{"start":13670.985,"end":13692.654,"text":"還是一樣這就是歸根結底是能源配比一個很大的問題犧牲到的是我們中部人的健康所以我們在這裡是支持張啟凱委員的提案好 謝謝 來主席這邊處理這個案子已經討論了40分鐘有委員提案檢列有委員提案凍結有委員提案保留沒有辦法共識這個這個案子"},{"start":13697.338,"end":13697.578,"text":"5分鐘就好"},{"start":13732.69,"end":13734.031,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":13755.612,"end":13766.019,"text":"中央電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":13782.464,"end":13783.185,"text":"二天一次會議"},{"start":13806.368,"end":13821.492,"text":"我會生氣是什麼?你今天如果坦白跟我講你今天坦白跟我講新達亭我們會減量多少?我們會努力多少?這樣沒話說你當成我們都不知道生命的、健康的可以這樣亂來嗎?"},{"start":13823.864,"end":13825.546,"text":" 你要掩蓋什麼?"},{"start":13825.546,"end":13827.768,"text":"你坦白講對不對?"},{"start":13827.768,"end":13831.191,"text":"你坦白講你800以下你還是要燒?"},{"start":13831.191,"end":13831.291,"text":"對不對?"},{"start":13831.291,"end":13835.834,"text":"你本來你今年就是兩... 對不對?"},{"start":13835.834,"end":13842.88,"text":"你今年兩部經營本來就是...你明年如果兩部新黨... 然後你告訴我新黨你明年沒有要停要不要停?"},{"start":13844.444,"end":13865.156,"text":"新年要不要提拔拍一下你說拔拍一下還是要嘛對不對人民的健康這麼痛苦對不對全力支持你台電還騙我們有什麼可以騙的你坦白跟我說你坦白講什麼叫這樣子你修正你的語言你坦白跟我說明年新達電廠"},{"start":13866.657,"end":13872.361,"text":"對不對兩部要停但是你環評有說8%以下的電力還是要燒你要去統計你會燒多少你要談的跟我講你不能直接跟我說我已經減了300萬噸就是答案新達電廠明年停兩部就是少掉300萬噸對不對你用這個欺騙我們阿我台中火力變了"},{"start":13889.352,"end":13892.734,"text":"我沒有欺騙!我沒有欺騙!我沒有欺騙!我沒有欺騙!我沒有欺騙!我沒有欺騙!我沒有欺騙!"},{"start":13911.909,"end":13939.28,"text":"委員不可以這樣講因為我只想2021年缺水的時候我就必須需要用其他的電力來調度2021年是近5年來近5年來報告委員依照法律台電公司報告委員依照法律我們現在依照法律在執行你有考慮過這些周邊居民的感想嗎我們就是依照法律在執行"},{"start":13940.06,"end":13966.05,"text":"所以我問你啦現在說要減310再減200萬噸的這個燃煤你到底可以接受到什麼程度嗎你也要講出來嘛你完全沒辦法我這樣說我不會知道明年包括我就講了一個最清楚的例子2021年是過去五年來用煤量最大的為什麼因為水利的問題嘛我們也尊重你嘛你拿一個"},{"start":13967.574,"end":13969.276,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":13984.756,"end":14013.956,"text":"你如果講清楚了我們就可以 那你怎麼會沒有做功課我們提這些案子你們都沒有做功課來 你當初提來的預算到底要燒多少的煤跟天然氣 這都要很清楚 多少錢都要很清楚今天的解藥什麼 第一個你自己要想辦法不要讓台灣缺電嘛 包括民進黨政府你都講你明年的那個再生能源就大幅增加啦 大幅增加當然把燃煤減掉啊"},{"start":14015.096,"end":14016.057,"text":"我們已經在見了我們已經在見了我們已經在見了"},{"start":14030.504,"end":14034.526,"text":"我砍掉了250億我們明年只有砍300億要求你200至少要少250億200萬噸的煤那個執行下來有餘裕才砍的嘛阿你明年你為什麼沒辦法繼續撿鄭董事長你為什麼沒辦法繼續選阿我們有繼續撿我們撿了300萬噸"},{"start":14050.376,"end":14060.239,"text":"你們撿的300萬噸是為了明年的那兩個機組要停止要維修才撿的嘛你們這樣子說其實狀況不是這個樣我補充一下從頭到尾一直掩蓋我要呼籲新達電廠的旁邊的民眾現在台電說明年新達電廠我要請問會不會停"},{"start":14078.435,"end":14087.163,"text":"8%以上的會不會停?我們依照8%以上就停啊再停啊那你預估明年兩部今年停兩部今年是停兩部300萬噸你明年8%以上可以停多少?跟委員報告請你告訴我們科學預算請你們告訴我預算是個屋頂我們就是編列下來最好的狀況屋頂不屋頂我們不講數字請你告訴我新一達電廠8%以上"},{"start":14104.378,"end":14115.623,"text":"明年的價值是多少?少掉1億度就會增加4萬噸的煤從頭到尾還是沒有給我們答案啊我們今天是在審預算欸審預算是這部門有條件你有條件你有資格你有權利要告訴社會大眾8%以上你會要多少?你會減多少?對不對?做說明說什麼說明?"},{"start":14127.308,"end":14140.781,"text":"先打個多少?請講!阿主席勒?主席跑去哪裡?阿主席叫回來阿!休息五分鐘他不回來是不是?"},{"start":14142.355,"end":14161.954,"text":"曾董事長,你的政協就趕快去發展再生能源,達到你們民進黨政府自己提出的標準,就不要再燒煤了。你剛剛講的,你現在的困擾就是因為常常降到對債容量8%以下嘛,對不對?所以你就是燒啊,包括剛剛新華電廠就是因為這樣,所以你一直燒煤啊。你剛剛還在跟我講沒有十部機組,我給你聽,11月14日及15日。"},{"start":14166.038,"end":14166.799,"text":"臨口的1號機、2號機、大嶺的1號機、2號機台中的1號機、3號機、4號機、5號機、6號機、10號機"},{"start":14174.599,"end":14185.565,"text":"主席回來了主席我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中我們台中"},{"start":14198.172,"end":14203.655,"text":"請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座請回座"},{"start":14227.617,"end":14253.436,"text":"我主席一向是開明又中立我希望說能夠達成共識在這邊十幾載的時間我們超明跟瓊英我們在一起共識十幾年十幾年從來沒有一次表決過如果在我這邊破例沒有啦沒有表決過"},{"start":14256.857,"end":14270.174,"text":"那個是我還沒來啦所以你要跟上來跟上瓊英的進度這樣子齁我們是議事而且是那個我們經濟委會的特色啦希望能夠追求最大的共識如果真的沒有共識齁"},{"start":14271.598,"end":14280.241,"text":"不要強行用表決,就是到這個院會再去表決。我們如果這個表決一開,我們這個和諧的氣氛就會受到影響。我引重心長跟各位做一個說明。"},{"start":14288.184,"end":14302.371,"text":"我不是說這個要偏擋誰但是過去 求問你當召委的時候我們也尊重你 你有很多保留事項我們經濟委員會有有有我給你報告 你上會期做沒有這種特別議案主席進行處理你上會期當召委的時候主席進行處理我剛剛跟大家說明保留也是一種處理方式嘛 對不對保留 過去很多預算保留送朝野協商阿"},{"start":14318.041,"end":14327.158,"text":"所以主題才是百萬保留反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對!反對"},{"start":14328.524,"end":14328.784,"text":"聽我講 聽我講 聽我講齁"},{"start":14353.942,"end":14357.005,"text":"不要意氣用事,我們心平氣和討論我們會很溫柔的在等待主席裁決小聲一點,小聲一點這個麥克風聲音很大"},{"start":14363.812,"end":14388.05,"text":"這個理直氣和我們這個在這邊面對是都有在轉播沒有人欺騙誰我們是這個就理論理就事論事沒有任何我們為了這個國家能源永續為了節能減碳為了保護大家的身體健康大家目標是一致的但是呢"},{"start":14389.127,"end":14409.437,"text":"大家有不同意見我做召委作為一個主席必須要兼顧大家的意見過去的慣例但是慣例形成是需要一段很長的時間那如果我們打破這個慣例未來動不動又一種表決大家覺得這樣好嗎?"},{"start":14410.663,"end":14412.404,"text":"主席,我建議晚一點先讓他們溝通說明一下,給一點時間,讓台電去專業溝通說明"},{"start":14441.244,"end":14456.558,"text":"所以有些沒有當過主席不曉得主席的難處要有韌性不是耐心還要有韌性所以就像智慧電網一樣也要有智慧所以剛剛休息時間我去念了一下咒"},{"start":14471.612,"end":14487.096,"text":"我是這麼認為啦齁 大家冷卻一下再溝通一下我們是不是再溝通個半個小時阿我沒有推翻阿 我只建議我覺得這個 既然我說 我就處理 我的處理是 保留嘛 你的處理 我們反對嘛 我們要求表決阿"},{"start":14497.813,"end":14497.833,"text":"剛才"},{"start":14525.982,"end":14545.482,"text":"所有的科目都審查非常順利這部分我也認為說有必要再進一步的討論那如果你們認為一定要達成我做的決議保留的決議你們認為你們有意見請問議事委員這該如何處理"},{"start":14551.358,"end":14557.03,"text":"主席是做裁決的嘛 對不對做裁決那你們對主席的裁決你們有意見"},{"start":14558.803,"end":14570.045,"text":"我們提動議表決我們提動議表決你不要站起來主席你不要站起來主席主持是經過你也當過召委是大家的決議主席的權利大家如果同意照這樣子不同意對不對不同意我們可以提出話請主席處理來我再休息一分鐘我就來處理沒有打破慣例經濟委員會也有"},{"start":14587.808,"end":14610.554,"text":"有休息一分鐘來處理齁一分鐘之後我就來處理一分鐘我可以走去哪裡啊有時啦那不可以都沒錢的你也不要說到二十你也不要說到二十那些什麼都沒錢的那些人常常這樣講你也沒有立法院就拜託董事長你也沒有立法院"},{"start":14617.156,"end":14626.065,"text":"我都跟他們說了,他們可以驚慌多久啊!新達你本來就8萬以上就要啊!對啊!我們都要講啦!他就都不行啊!而且新達,新達你咧咧!我現在都在賣土生團,新達不想停,繼續燒!沒有!要再兩次喔!"},{"start":14641.94,"end":14649.883,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":14668.764,"end":14675.287,"text":"一年兩百啦,一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年"},{"start":14685.05,"end":14694.92,"text":"兩百五十一元兩百五十一元兩百五十一元兩百五十一元兩百五十一元兩百五十一元"},{"start":14709.653,"end":14710.374,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":14733.15,"end":14734.651,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會"},{"start":14754.372,"end":14758.914,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":14784.287,"end":14784.507,"text":"委員會委員會長"},{"start":14827.27,"end":14827.67,"text":"女士們 請坐女士們 請坐"},{"start":14843.106,"end":14855.34,"text":"I am going to make a very important announcement."},{"start":14855.34,"end":14856.681,"text":"I am starving."},{"start":14860.988,"end":14887.579,"text":"剛才我們國民黨資深委員楊瓊英委員也代表中部這個廣大民眾的權益中部也包括如果陶淑敏也算中部的話鄭振英也算那個誰廖偉祥的廖偉祥也是那個羅天鵝也是"},{"start":14889.416,"end":14890.841,"text":"張家健陳昌明鄭天才"},{"start":14895.911,"end":14924.025,"text":"中部的這個相關的這個權益委員都令我覺得很敬佩當然這個剛剛休息了一分鐘我們做了一些的討論當然我作為一個主席當然也要尊重大家的意見也要讓行政部門可行那剛才我們最資深的這個楊權益委員代表說我們中部的這些委員提出著他們的共同的看法"},{"start":14926.907,"end":14931.67,"text":"這筆預算是如果我沒記錯的話楊勳如果我記錯你再指正一下這個減煤150億然後減煤100噸100萬噸好好來 郭委員"},{"start":14954.332,"end":14979.208,"text":"另外我們還有一個7000多億的系項的不是那個第23案那個誰林建修委員在因為這個系項我們已經有做過檢列或者凍結的是不是還需要有必要再做處理因為系項部分都已經有做過處理的就是改成主決議就好了改成主決議就好了"},{"start":14980.895,"end":14981.515,"text":"我們就處理了"},{"start":15008.188,"end":15008.469,"text":"因為阿這個謝謝大家這個"},{"start":15011.977,"end":15011.997,"text":"23 啊!"},{"start":15040.951,"end":15041.851,"text":"請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":15071.227,"end":15085.697,"text":"發言我先提一下那個19案齁19案我修正一下改為改為凍結500萬元請台電公司於一個月內向立法院經濟委員會提出書面報告以後使得凍結第19案19案本來是凍結1000萬嘛改凍500萬好來徵請委員之後我們就好最後一位發言齁"},{"start":15095.684,"end":15106.258,"text":"現在主席因為本席這邊本來提第24案那我在想說到時候就跟齊凱跟那個秀英的案子併案處理那我這邊要特別提剛剛主席做了一個裁定就是簡列150億跟100萬噸那我這邊要特別"},{"start":15111.224,"end":15130.12,"text":"特別提一個狀態因為剛剛主席這邊有講過這是我們的共識嘛那我要特別提一個情況就是說因為台電這邊的能源真的是有問題因為包括很多綠能的部分再生能源的部分推動其實很不利我們之後也會針對這部分找台電這邊來做進一步的一個協商跟溝通"},{"start":15131.061,"end":15154.131,"text":"再生能源：剛剛齊凱這邊特別提到的狀態就是說為什麼今天他這麼堅持這麼生氣就是因為整個再生能源的一個政策的推動其實也有很多的一個問題然後沒有好好的去解決那剛剛主席這邊如果說已經做成這樣的一個決議我們這邊也就予以尊重以上謝謝我剛剛已經宣告最後發言的那個我們都已經處理完了因為剛剛已經都有講了"},{"start":15160.626,"end":15181.876,"text":"最後講一下因為之前講的那個4000零多少億那個是全部我們剛剛做成的決議是火力發電購煤的部分是減150億那減煤量的部分100萬噸中火的煤量減100萬噸就是這樣子所以不是卡在一起喔減150億是300萬噸的價格啦"},{"start":15189.141,"end":15211.195,"text":"因為兩千兩千萬噸一千億 主席我們還是要回到實務面齁 減一百五十億台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明年的執行 台電會不會影響他們明"},{"start":15219.605,"end":15223.74,"text":"那剛是講這樣那我要聽台電的說法啦這樣子齁"},{"start":15225.56,"end":15232.484,"text":"請坐請坐請坐來新民企業到最後尾聲我們現在有一個比較和諧的氣氛剛才都有討論過那既然就我已經宣讀這個結論當然當時我們都了解但是現場的委員他們這些意見我必須要處理的所以這樣"},{"start":15260.816,"end":15267.1,"text":"最後我猜是董事長你講了一分鐘之後我就要關門了一分鐘"},{"start":15269.053,"end":15284.159,"text":"董事長你講一分鐘好跟委員報告我們現在是2200萬噸然後預算是1050億那如果要對稱減我們是不是能夠就是一個匹配的方法看主席才是比方說減100萬噸的煤他是減50億的預算"},{"start":15300.475,"end":15300.596,"text":"先請回座"},{"start":15313.299,"end":15334.107,"text":"我講了我說這些東西我就這樣子我已經很清楚報告員我們的狀況是這樣我們邊的預算通常都會把相對來講可能全部我們會考慮進來包括2021年其實那一年過去每年的用煤都下降2021年上升因為水情非常不好"},{"start":15334.907,"end":15348.481,"text":"水晶不好就影響供電所以請大家能夠考慮預算邊是給我們一個預度但我們會積極在減煤這件事已經過去幾年一直都在做的事我們從2800萬噸降到明年的預算是2200萬噸2200萬"},{"start":15357.673,"end":15367.038,"text":"剛講他可以減到2200萬不是現在是這樣那我就減我們努力減100萬減5%嘛就50億100萬噸嘛就50億100萬噸啦我們可以附帶啊當然是減金額啊對不對"},{"start":15386.089,"end":15400.719,"text":"就是處理上基本上機關的意見是很重要的如果機關是根本做不到至少要讓他講一下不然接下來怎麼辦請回座 請回座 機關的意見也很重要來 請回座來 次長 次長還是王學商啊?"},{"start":15411.027,"end":15422.955,"text":"主席,經過非常溫柔、理性、祥和、理性科普的討論,我們也都大家尊重請回座我們現在就是金額"},{"start":15430.265,"end":15433.888,"text":"我們重新修正這個案的決議金額減列60億然後"},{"start":15453.344,"end":15475.723,"text":"經濟剪裂60億然後中美的部分中美的部分剪100萬噸經濟剪裂60億好請宣讀協商結論宣讀台電公司協商結論第一案預算照列本案改為主決議第二三案凍結6億元提出書面報告後使得凍資第四五案預算照列"},{"start":15476.932,"end":15496.87,"text":"其中第4案改為主決議、第6案預算照列、第7案預算照列本案改為主決議、第8案預算照列、第9案預算照列短案改為主決議、第10、11案預算照列其中第10案改為主決議、第12案預算照列、第13案預算照列本案改為主決議、第14案預算照列本案改為主決議、第15案簡列100萬元"},{"start":15499.312,"end":15525.625,"text":"第16至17案預算照列其中16案改為主決議第18案預算照列本案改為主決議第19至21案凍結500萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第22案預算照列第23案預算照列本案改為主決議第24案預算照列第25至26案預算照列第27至32案簡列火力發電費用向下燃煤60億元"},{"start":15528.885,"end":15544.943,"text":"第三十三、三十四案預算照列其中三十四案改為主決議第三十五至三十六案凍結一千萬元提出宿命包號使合動之第三十七、三十八案預算照列其中三十八案改為主決議第三十九案預算照列第四十案預算照列"},{"start":15546.38,"end":15561.065,"text":"第41案預算照列第42案43案預算照列第44案預算照列本案改為主決議第45案照案通過第46案47案凍結議員提出書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":15562.325,"end":15570.971,"text":"第48案凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第49案凍結2000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第50案51案預算照列本會案改為主決議第52至55案凍結1億元其中55案凍結1億元提出書面報告後使得凍資其中55案改為主決議第56案"},{"start":15586.742,"end":15602.027,"text":"動輒1000萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第57、58案動輒1000萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第59至61案預算照列本3案均改為主決議第62至65案預算照列本4案均改為主決議"},{"start":15602.987,"end":15625.958,"text":"第66至68案凍結一千萬元提出書面報告後使得動之其中66案改為主決議第69案預算照列第70案凍結一千萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第71案預算照列本案改為主決議第72、73案凍結一千萬元提出書面報告後使得動之其中73案改為主決議第74案預算照列"},{"start":15626.618,"end":15646.225,"text":"本案改為主決議第75案撤案第76案預算照列本案改為主決議第77案改為主決議主決議部分78案修正通過79案到83案照案通過84案修正通過85案照案通過86案修正通過87案到95案照案通過96案修正通過97案到103案照案通過104案修正通過105案到108案照案通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":15663.596,"end":15666.664,"text":"來剛剛協商的結論宣讀完畢那這個"},{"start":15668.624,"end":15695.647,"text":"我先講一下齁那個今天大家稍微看一下都知道齁今天高雄的空污狀況比台中還要嚴重啦齁高雄是全部現在最嚴重的都在南部都在高雄台中還是綠的高雄已經是黃色的所以高雄在承擔的空污我們還百分之四十中送北送那如果照剛剛這樣的通過的話我們沒有辦法對高雄交代啦所以我的意思是說你要撿就全台灣一起撿這個我可以接受你如果高雄、台中要撿那高雄更要撿啦"},{"start":15696.548,"end":15711.219,"text":"所以我意思說兩個選擇一個就是全部拿掉就是減100那另外一種就是高雄台中都一起減沒有理由高雄比台中空污更嚴重然後台中還減100然後高雄不能減那這樣子我也沒辦法接受這我也沒辦法接受主席"},{"start":15722.337,"end":15737.246,"text":"賴委員講的話我覺得我要表達支持啦所以我願意啊我們大家一起來為台灣努力嘛所以我覺得是不是台中100萬噸高雄也100萬噸這樣就好了應該也要照顧高雄人我們應該為高雄鄉賴委員用心良苦"},{"start":15741.035,"end":15767.149,"text":"你不要去區分區域阿你如果要求的話那就把臺中高雄一起併進去臺中高雄一起併進去我再次強調高雄現在空污是比臺中還要嚴重的一起併進去是200萬高高雄現在40%空氣往中往北送的電力往中往北送臺中高雄併進去就議委員的建議就是把臺中高雄一起併進去兩個一起併進去"},{"start":15771.479,"end":15787.444,"text":"沒有沒有,100萬對就寫說我剛剛已經下局主席都已經講了一直一直在講草野寫上就是還沒寫上,完整就是還沒有啦各位同仁同仁大家同仁不要這樣子啦同仁不要這樣子啦同仁不要這樣子啦同仁不要這樣子啦同仁不要這樣子啦同仁不要這樣子啦同仁不要這樣子啦"},{"start":15793.746,"end":15794.366,"text":"同仁對同仁不要這樣子"},{"start":15810.738,"end":15825.668,"text":"我想我們在這裡我們一定要面對實際的狀況就是說我們希望減煤但是我們也要兼顧到整個產業的一個發展的需求所以還是要合乎實際上台電有辦法執行的有效減煤"},{"start":15827.129,"end":15849.422,"text":"對,那你何必去把它限定地區呢?如果說我們把目標100萬噸就把地區拿掉那就是讓台電去調整那當然他要調整哪邊就台電來規劃阿事實上會規劃的重點一定是在火力發電比較多的地方那現在大家也知道高雄、台中是火力發電相對其他比較多的自然也會從這裡去減下來"},{"start":15851.643,"end":15862.191,"text":"我們何必要從雍區域然後你這樣去用那事實上台電董事長剛剛也講到了這樣是會影響到明年度台電的運作那如果這樣的話我們還是要有一些斟酌調整的空間啊"},{"start":15869.107,"end":15888.16,"text":"我們就是協調完了60億、100萬噸主席英明自己宣誓了他又馬上又加碼說是中央的100萬噸現在又要再改一改再改一退再退好了沒有要再改了因為努力比較不要那個那個那個剛才那個楊瀅說就再連一個主決議把這個主決議補上去啦因為啊那個請問一下"},{"start":15895.339,"end":15919.619,"text":"你中火新達在我那邊大林他那邊又有兩位主協長我們都是火我們都是火主決議通過就好了所以他會這樣歡迎我可以了解希望大家可以提及所以一旦他是沒有辦法對國有什麼交代你是對台中有什麼交代他不可以對國有什麼交代所以你那個各自去寫主決議那個補一個主決議起來對啦對啦各自去寫主決議你們寫你們的我們寫我們的就好了"},{"start":15924.222,"end":15924.723,"text":"委員會主席 休息180秒"},{"start":15943.933,"end":15960.759,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":15962.022,"end":15971.048,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16006.988,"end":16029.565,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":16047.9,"end":16049.281,"text":"第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司："},{"start":16096.869,"end":16123.49,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":16126.852,"end":16150.105,"text":"第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司。"},{"start":16159.13,"end":16167.018,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16176.939,"end":16177,"text":"第12屆第3會議"},{"start":16195.52,"end":16217.367,"text":"第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司"},{"start":16222.307,"end":16235.223,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16255.121,"end":16257.782,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16270.295,"end":16270.516,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16273.483,"end":16274.144,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16303.746,"end":16312.57,"text":"第11屆第2會期經濟部總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":16333.295,"end":16355.568,"text":"第11屆第2會期經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司。"},{"start":16375.665,"end":16376.625,"text":"來請坐 坐下才能發便當"},{"start":16387.015,"end":16415.681,"text":"來新增108之一108之二來新增101108之一108之二好好大家沒有意見沒有意見我們中火減煤100萬噸"},{"start":16418.27,"end":16431.365,"text":"這是附來決議。就是主決議啦。 主決議啦。決議啦。決議啦。好。好。那個。我以為我真的是。 沒關係啦。這是決議啦。來。這個。108之1比108之2通過。來。這個。"},{"start":16440.236,"end":16442.758,"text":"請問各位委員有委員提案的部分均照"},{"start":16467.915,"end":16481.58,"text":"均照剛才宣讀的結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列或水桶調整請問有異議請問有異議好 通過通過的這個決議受文字授權主席"},{"start":16493.652,"end":16502.331,"text":"及議事主席及議事人員整理今日所列議程處理完略現在 散會"},{"start":16524.777,"end":16536.384,"text":"有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣電力股份"},{"start":16548.371,"end":16549.572,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]}},{"id":"16392","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16392","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd19061065897f096c95ae6d70765f091178081dad70f87c46f3791e0366a24e325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算。\n二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─民航事業作業基金分預算。\n三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預算。\n(均詢答完畢，進行處理)【12月18日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-19T08:31:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T12:48:00+08:00","duration":15375,"影片長度":"04:16:15","委員發言時間":"08:31:45 - 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謝謝林委員接下來請林俊憲委員感謝主席本席提議第16案是關於我們空運管理業務編有1519萬"},{"start":2913.716,"end":2928.124,"text":"空運管理裏面有包含航空保安還有危險物品外站查核根據媒體報導就有某民用航空公司他多次沒有按照我們道路交通安全條例申請臨時通行證"},{"start":2930.365,"end":2949.046,"text":"外面的車輛不可以隨便進入機場管制區要申請臨時通行證結果這家航空公司派出的車子他多次沒有申請而且他進到裡面是去提領航空用油那航空用油這屬於危險物品不可以隨便裝載用的是小貨車"},{"start":2950.587,"end":2952.148,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":2964.355,"end":2987.003,"text":"所以如果在航空站內不小心發生事故會嚴重影響飛航安全那長期以來民航局怎麼可以放任業者違規進出航站而且也沒有依照安全裝載品來載運航空用油來予以懲罰或者是制止"},{"start":2987.703,"end":2988.664,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3007.939,"end":3010.48,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3033.524,"end":3054.602,"text":"謝謝主席不好意思我這裡再重申一次本期提的是第11案那就是針對民用航空局在明年度預算在空運管理業務向下編列了1519萬8千元主要就是辦理其中一項就是有關這個航空保安與危險物品外站查核及召開督導會議"},{"start":3055.763,"end":3057.425,"text":"交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":3076.8,"end":3080.765,"text":"非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":3094.84,"end":3109.088,"text":"徐副國委提出第二十案跟二十一案那二十案的部分是針對空運管理業務編列1519萬8千元這個案子我想今年我們的國人暨產業蓬勃發展"},{"start":3111.189,"end":3136.768,"text":"那注冊的這個總數已經有4萬多架那合格的操作的操作證也有將近2萬張但是因為我們無人機相關的配套規劃顯然不足以無人機考試來講目前中南部只有一個雲林湖有一個定義機的考場那我們南部的考生必須跑到雲林去考試相當的不方便那屏東目前有規劃築填了一個無人機的飛行場"},{"start":3137.489,"end":3160.105,"text":"那我們要求民航局應該積極來協調能夠整建這樣的一個非營場讓我們一個無人機的考照可以常態化那也可以拓展我們一個無人機的一個產業發展那另外針對無人機的這個農作的規範並不符合農比實際上的需求而且容易造成這個有法人身份容易造成跟周邊的一個有機戶跟住戶的一個衝突"},{"start":3160.585,"end":3188.699,"text":"那我們也要求民航局應該妥善的輔導並研議放寬配套解決這個農耕高齡化跟人力不足所以我要求要凍結這個預算數的一趴那在二十億案的部分一樣是空運管理業務的這個案子編列了15198000元我想我們還是要求民航局針對這個恆春機場這個包機的部分尤其這個對於屏東的觀光發展是非常非常重要的一個一個航站那我們"},{"start":3190.44,"end":3211.937,"text":"從這個疫情之後那當然我民航局做這部分我們還要求積極推動跟國外的一個合作的一個包機航線的一個研議那並爭取我們國外到這個恆春的一個包機的航線那希望也可以跟國內的航空公司共同來開發這個航點那本期也要求要提案凍結這個預算數的1%請民航局針對屏東的一個國外包機的航線開發予以作為處理謝謝"},{"start":3217.842,"end":3232.638,"text":"好 謝謝接下來何信聰委員補充說明好 謝謝喔 謝謝趙偉那本席提的是18案喔那還是在關心我們台中的清泉崗國際機場喔那尤其那個發展跟這個時程喔第一個要盡量提早喔"},{"start":3233.018,"end":3260.483,"text":"那之前也跟部長還有局長都有討論過希望能夠真正來推動第二個就是在於航班、航點、航線的問題很高興的也謝謝大家的努力在這個年底之前看到好像航線有增加、航班有增加那希望能夠繼續努力因為我們期待中部地區的這個可以飛往各國際城市的這個飛行航線越來越多、航班越來越多"},{"start":3261.283,"end":3263.204,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3283.379,"end":3299.878,"text":"那是不是可以在台中我們尋找適當的地點再增加考照的一個場所那可以讓有需要的民眾可以就近我覺得不要浪費那麼多時間在交通上面好不好好謝謝"},{"start":3301.141,"end":3318.392,"text":"好,謝謝何委員。接下來林國成委員,歡迎。我想這個剛剛跟大家報告過了也是我提第二案、第三案這個部分也就是無人機的業務認證是人數越來越多但是他在這裡編列的預算113年跟114年"},{"start":3321.374,"end":3342.25,"text":"反而業務越多然後它的編列預算越來越少所以因而剛剛我提出第二案第三案主要是把它拉高的原因在這裡但是在這裡我是主張凍結百分之三十那百分之三十這個部分當然這個牽涉到專案報告或書面報告"},{"start":3344.231,"end":3362.083,"text":"主要就是因為業務跟整個收入跟整個作為要把它連貫性所以本席提出這12案至於凍結金額或者要專案報告或書院報告等一下聽聽大家各位委員跟主席的裁定為主"},{"start":3363.464,"end":3390.347,"text":"好謝謝林委員我們蔡委員好謝謝主席齁這個無人機的問題齁大家無論是凍結啦主決議我想都很關心啦那其實主要根結在於說這個無人機啊我們從經濟部的產業面啊我們其實從民用一直到農用一直到軍用"},{"start":3391.648,"end":3415.65,"text":"國家都列為重點發展的產業那你從實際登記的數字來看你可以看到這個大家無論是考照啦或者是做相關的這些認證登記數量越來越龐大但是我一直覺得說為什麼這個我也提了凍結就我覺得部裡面速度可能要加快啦"},{"start":3416.471,"end":3434.851,"text":"包括你看最重要的就其他的部分當然包括影響影響這個住戶啦等等這些就不講你對這個航空的安全特別在民用機場附近我們到今天沒有辦法綠定遙控無人機的這個射頻的識別規範"},{"start":3438.495,"end":3452.269,"text":"這個其實是我比較在意的,到底當時才可以把這個規範做好因為這個涉及到飛行的安全嘛所以這個更是重中之重所以一邊我們政府在推動無人機產業"},{"start":3453.69,"end":3477.005,"text":"民眾也不斷的在考照啊等等登記考照等等但我們的規範卻遠遠來不及這個就是我覺得這個在政策上面兩邊沒有把它搭配好很重要的原因所以凍結不是重點啦凍結不是重點那書面報告也不是重點重點關鍵在於就是說希望透過一個凍結來提醒"},{"start":3479.18,"end":3498.71,"text":"交通部：立法院對這件事情的重視跟關注。好,謝謝。好,謝謝蔡委員。大家對於空運管理業務都非常的關心。那我個人也有提三案,待會我們民航局統一來跟委員不同的意見來做回應。那第一個最主要的第13案,"},{"start":3501.511,"end":3520.412,"text":"主要是因為可能前兩年颱風的次數清台比較少一點那在今年可以連續幾次我們看到了這個航空業非安不管是簽派決策可不可以落地我們覺得是真的是有一點問題也造成了蠻多的航班"},{"start":3521.093,"end":3524.155,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3542.688,"end":3561.067,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3561.327,"end":3563.169,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3578.906,"end":3580.948,"text":"第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":3598.42,"end":3617.074,"text":"國外的旅費,國外旅費的一個部分,中間去年是23.4萬,今年編了171.4萬,增加了6.3倍。我覺得這個增加的幅度,如果沒有具體的說明,我都覺得應該,我這邊提的是三節50%,凍結20%。"},{"start":3620.837,"end":3626.483,"text":"好,那以上是我的說明。民航局來回應。好,謝謝委員。那我首先有關蔡委員所說的這個無人機宣導的部分。"},{"start":3637.034,"end":3661.684,"text":"這個部分我們會來加強因為確實要讓周遭的民眾能夠了解整個無人機不可以在機場四周的部分這部分我們會來配合然後再來是有關這個林委員所提到的就是有關這個危險物品就是這個普通航空業運載危險物品的部分那這部分我們也會跟這個公路局這邊來間接就是說雖然我們的這個"},{"start":3665.386,"end":3688.008,"text":"車輛跟這個不多那可是這個部分的他們的掌握還有包含他在路線上運行的時候應該取有這個公路總局合法的這個危險載運危險物品的臨時的證照這一整個管理我們會再從內部的一些包含對他的集合會做一個全面的一個檢視包含就是針對所有的這個普通航空業的部分"},{"start":3689.209,"end":3692.111,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3707.637,"end":3726.182,"text":"李崑澤委員提到無人機艦數113到現在是27艦確實這個部分也是對因為我們整個對機場無人機對機場的影響就是要避免影響在空機避免造成delay所以這個也是宣導的部分我們會來加強作業"},{"start":3728.062,"end":3747.502,"text":"另外還有有關河委員剛剛有提到考照的部分就是有關無人機在這個中部的地區還有徐委員有提到在這個屏東竹田的一個擴建這個部分我們都會再來協助然後看看考照考場的部分如何來經過"},{"start":3748.963,"end":3775.249,"text":"那再來是這個林委員林國成林委員有提到這個無人機就是跟剛剛爪偉這邊提到的有關無人機的教育訓練跟國外旅費的部分我做一個說明就是說有關這個委辦費用的減少主要就是說我們希望在局裡面因為無人機的形式非常多種有固定"},{"start":3775.529,"end":3776.93,"text":"基金分預算基金分預算"},{"start":3796.681,"end":3799.042,"text":"主管交通部主管交通部主管交通"},{"start":3818.286,"end":3818.746,"text":"教育訓練基金分預算"},{"start":3846.085,"end":3866.941,"text":"這個部分然後剛剛蔡委員提到的remote ID的部分我也做個補充說明其實這個從我們無人機立法開始就有確實就是有列在法裡面這個社評識別我們因為我們這幾年也跟其他國家在聯繫那美國也是發展到現在在今年的這個3月份他們送到國會又被國會退回"},{"start":3867.481,"end":3872.002,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3897.548,"end":3911.48,"text":"上面所提的部分是不是有關這個部分我是希望各位委員可以來支持民航局因為無人機確實是新興的業務在以往其實是從109年以後慢慢去建構這個量能"},{"start":3912.841,"end":3939.582,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3941.079,"end":3966.686,"text":"邱局長邱局長哪個項目跟你有關啊一直想讓你講點話啊這渦輪機的安全跟你有沒有關啊渦輪機安全的部分是我們協助民航局這邊來做取締的工作其他的我們是附屬單位預算跟我們有關的幾個項目是好好那我們現在剛剛民航局也說明了齁來李昆哲委員"},{"start":3967.566,"end":3980.651,"text":"普通說明謝謝趙偉民航局一向是經費本來就不是很充裕單位也不是很大所以他們相關的經費是都比較紮實而且"},{"start":3983.732,"end":3986.974,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":4009.887,"end":4013.028,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4039.016,"end":4057.752,"text":"更進一步的取得相關的這種資訊那我們看到歐美現在有關於這種無人機的檢驗規範越來越複雜我們相關的飛控、通訊、導航等等的軟體那硬體及空中的交通系統它的專業訓練也越來越專業"},{"start":4060.214,"end":4082.195,"text":"所以這個民航局我記得也都有派訓練的人員我建議這個我們相關的這個國際會議的費用以及專業訓練的費用請大家就不要去刪除因為經費也不多啦也不多我們都已經跟不上國際的發展趨勢了向各位報告謝謝"},{"start":4084.6,"end":4108.88,"text":"許智傑委員謝謝主席 其實我們當然昆哲委員講的我們會支持不過我想那個還要再提醒一下民航局因為無人機去年好像就十幾次十幾次影響了那個飛航的航班這樣影響飛航的航班今天假設啦這是敵機要來刺探軍情的"},{"start":4109.997,"end":4121.871,"text":"那是連一件事也有可能造成我們的非安之外還有國安問題所以就是說今天包括非安包括國安其實無人機能夠進來我是覺得這個我們的那個防護網不夠嚴密"},{"start":4127.148,"end":4155.458,"text":"所以還是希望說當然交通部的經費我們會支持就是說給經費就是要求這個部分要做好嘛因為這個部分真的是做得我真的是有點擔心做得講實話真的不夠好所以這一部分我希望說能夠交通部民航局這一部分能夠改善不要再有防堵怎麼樣防堵讓無人機侵入我們的那個非航的領域這個其實非常的重要一定要把它做得更扎實"},{"start":4156.912,"end":4176.254,"text":"好謝謝許委員接下來有請陳雪村委員發言我跟你講無人機啊、教育訓練也好、出國的禮費啊、剛才跟著委員跟製作委員不說明很久還有我們過程委員啊我想我們給他支持好不好我想不用刪錢了好不好各位"},{"start":4178.652,"end":4180.273,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4209.312,"end":4235.951,"text":"麻煩不要亂寫每次亂寫出來最後面都會到國際大新聞好不好馬上被人出國報告回來因為我們會看好不好好 這個各位委員主要的意見都已經表達完畢了那我想這邊嘗試的合併整合來處理一下再徵求各位委員的意見首先我們第18案核心總委員剛剛同意改主決議主決議齁"},{"start":4238.132,"end":4249.858,"text":"其他個案的部分主要都是凍結除了教育訓練國外的旅費的部分我這邊有提刪減先處理刪減後面處理凍結比較有意義這個刪減的部分"},{"start":4255.236,"end":4275.675,"text":"但是我還是不清楚齁我剛剛講的是你有國外旅費很清楚吧他編到對的位置但是成長了很多倍23.4萬變成了這個171萬是這樣到底為什麼要成長這麼多倍第二個呢你在教育訓練費裡面又跟我們說除了出國費171萬以外"},{"start":4278.328,"end":4295.947,"text":"另外這個84萬呢也有78.1萬是出國訓練出國教育訓練的費用出國國外進修的費用就是是就是這個這些人是國外進修那國外禮費就是這些人是去玩他的分別是怎麼樣怎麼回事"},{"start":4297.048,"end":4325.525,"text":"那跟委員報告這兩筆費用確實不一樣原本我們在單位預算裡面是只有編一筆23萬的出國那個是原本就是給保安運用的保安就是我們那個航空保安的部分那在無人機的部分我們是加了220萬那就像剛剛委員講的我們有四個會議就是會議就是它等於是美國跟歐盟還有亞洲地區他們如果辦這個無人機的這個年會"},{"start":4326.305,"end":4327.867,"text":"第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":4341.647,"end":4366.335,"text":"因為開會才能去跟各國的直接面對的溝通所以在這個部分編了四個會議那訓練是不同的訓練是要報名課程是要拿就是說他會有課程那課程的費用這個是國外的訓因為國內也不會有這個訓練所以這個部分三個課程就是剛剛講的就是一個是硬體的一個軟體的一個是空中管理的部分"},{"start":4366.875,"end":4393.673,"text":"那這個是要報名一人一次然後出國訓練這兩個是不同的形式所以是還是非常希望委員可以支持因為畢竟這個專家我們國內有專家可是這個全球的發展真的太快了而且無人機的形式真的樣態太多所以這個其實如果說可以去參加會議比較快速取得其他國家的預算"},{"start":4396.135,"end":4397.796,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4424.991,"end":4449.189,"text":"凍結10%凍結10%凍結10%凍結10%凍結10%"},{"start":4449.329,"end":4466.234,"text":"要書面報告或專案報告這個我要尊重你因為大家都關心所以我剛才提案的東西你沒有講到你沒有講到所以特別提醒你完整的書面報告林國城委員辦公室你們像國城委員專案報告一樣"},{"start":4475.359,"end":4479.7,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4502.076,"end":4522.113,"text":"好我再次這個嘗試做結議好看他有沒有其他的意見第二幕空運管理業務我們整個整體凍結10%等我們向交通委員會民航局向交通委員會提出書面報告使得動之"},{"start":4523.494,"end":4541.052,"text":"可以嗎?好但是我提醒一下今天委員雖然都是在這個幕下其實很多方向有些是無人機有些是大的飛機有些是這個你不要你每一個報告要回應到每一個委員喔千萬不要漏掉好不好部長稍微管制一下"},{"start":4542.403,"end":4562.159,"text":"好那針對於第二幕我們就向剛剛的決議處理後面還有嗎?好那接下來我們處理第27案到45案就是決議案的部分主決議的部分請大家翻到第二期"},{"start":4563.829,"end":4567.25,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4587.257,"end":4592,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4609.182,"end":4611.325,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4628.325,"end":4653.542,"text":"立法院交委會這邊來報告那用書面報告的方式那我們建議是說因為這個資訊我們其實會公佈在我們的局的網頁裡面無人機的專區裡面供各種民眾查詢所以我們建議文字在後面做一個修正就是要求交通部民航局定期於民航局局網首頁無人機專區中更新檢驗執行資訊"},{"start":4656.969,"end":4657.189,"text":"第三十二案"},{"start":4673.574,"end":4696.483,"text":"三十二案這邊我們建議改書面就是提出改善規劃加個書面報告書面加書面兩個字李昆哲委員你的案有問題要修幾個字好同意我就同意他提出改善規劃報告調整委提出改善規劃的書面報告"},{"start":4699.947,"end":4706.411,"text":"第三十二案修正文字後通過第三十三案照案通過第三十四案也遵照辦理"},{"start":4715.137,"end":4717.258,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4738.749,"end":4762.908,"text":"就是說你們的整理規劃裡面我想不能只有民航局自己在想辦法我想今天部長也在喔這樣當然說怎麼樣的去接駁讓交通更方便可能是用這種shuttle bus等等因為目前還沒有捷運的狀況下面嘛是不是把整個這個機場的這個旅客他能夠輕鬆的運輸到台中或是周邊的各個景點讓旅客他願意透過台中機場作為他這個來台灣的考量之一"},{"start":4763.408,"end":4787.434,"text":"台灣的這些中部的旅客他也願意把台中國際機場視為他出國的這個途徑之一這樣子你才辦法去擴張不然你去要求大家來這邊開航班但是沒有人來做那久了他又收掉所以我覺得這兩天是互惠因果就是你航班要增加但同時要讓所有人能夠可達性、易達性能夠提高這個是我除了民航局提出來之外我也希望部長在這邊也一起把這個事情來討論出來以上謝謝"},{"start":4789.741,"end":4801.073,"text":"好 謝謝黃建豪委員那我們針對23、4案是徵照辦理嗎好 那我們就照案通過第35案徵照辦理好 35案照案通過第36案"},{"start":4806.414,"end":4817.72,"text":"三十六案我們建議就是在最後一行提出專案報告改成提出書面報告提出書面報告提出書面報告提出書面報告提出書面報告提出書面報告提出書面報告"},{"start":4834.91,"end":4836.091,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":4864.025,"end":4865.825,"text":"第三十六案照案通過第三十七案"},{"start":4892.59,"end":4897.672,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4920.362,"end":4922.752,"text":"修正文之後通過。第38案"},{"start":4924.172,"end":4950.555,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":4950.735,"end":4968.628,"text":"三、發案這一邊我們是建議做文字修正就是說有關這個每三個月書面的這個部分建議刪除這樣子就是我們就會提出這個人力增補案的解決方案進度提出書面報告向交我會提出書面報告"},{"start":4969.537,"end":4975.822,"text":"好,那修正部分林國臣委員有沒有其他意見?就是期間不要壓而已啊?6、2、1、3、7、0、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1、2、1"},{"start":4993.757,"end":5022.658,"text":"三十九案照案通過四十案四十案我們建議文字修正就是建議文字修正為進行可行性評估以妥善規劃人員禁用的時程跟相關事宜然後請民航局三個月內提出書面報告報告召委陳書岳委員去開記者會他有交代就同意民航局所提出的修正文字好"},{"start":5024.35,"end":5049.87,"text":"第40案修正文字後通過拜託今天提案委員同意的修正文字要送過來啦不然我們說真的沒修半天講了因為差一個字有時候差很多好不好這個部分拜託部長就是陸續幾個單位下個禮拜都要審了這個部分就是有請委員簽個名然後文字呢提前"},{"start":5050.931,"end":5057.159,"text":"讓我們知道一下,不然我們也不知道在唸什麼,他們記錄很難搞。好,接下來處理第41案。來,遵照辦理。好,41案,照案通過。第42案。遵照辦理。"},{"start":5069.98,"end":5085.41,"text":"第四十四案照案通過第四十三案遵照辦理第四十四案遵照辦理四十四案遵照辦理四十四案照案通過"},{"start":5087.272,"end":5112.908,"text":"四十五案這邊四十五案因為這邊我們是建議文字修正因為有關無人機國產化是應該是經濟部門經濟部的主政那我們可以來配合所以我們建議在這個請交通部民航局與我們建議一個月改成三個月內洽經濟部然後後面就是提出專案改成書面"},{"start":5116.571,"end":5135.578,"text":"改書面改書面好,那就按照你們的意思修正文之後通過好,我們民航局的預算審議告一段落接下來請各位打開民航基金"},{"start":5142.895,"end":5150.682,"text":"六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":5174.298,"end":5188.044,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。68、要求統計公司針對自身財務狀況進行檢討提出書面報告。第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":5191.005,"end":5209.535,"text":"各位都準備好了嗎?首先我們看到交通部民航事業作業基金114年度附屬單位預算建議併案及預算表我們依這個表的順序來進行預算的審查"},{"start":5212.837,"end":5240.695,"text":"首先第一案第一案主要針對於勞務的收入啊 服務的收入主要希望你們這個收入能夠多一點它這個部分是我個人的提案因為我們認為說在以後各機場空運量恢復了而且恢復的速度其實蠻快的我覺得有一些收入的部分應該更有這個企圖心的去增加所以我針對於這個服務的收入"},{"start":5242.456,"end":5263.448,"text":"勞務收入降價的服務收入增列20%民航局說明有關這個服務的部分民航局在編列的時候這其中包含的主要四個部分第一個是那個過境服務費大概就我們從我們編了24億比113年大概加了7.35億那場戰的降落費我們編了大概19億那增加了大概4.2億"},{"start":5270.512,"end":5276.194,"text":"基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算"},{"start":5298.502,"end":5325.261,"text":"所以基本上其實我們已經大幅增加已經把自己提上來所以有關委員建議的部分我們是不是建議增加3000萬這樣我們來努力再把它增加因為其實整體來講已經我們是用108年的同期的水準好針對第一案喔這樣子啦折衷一下啦就是增編5000萬好不好增加5000萬好謝謝委員"},{"start":5328.163,"end":5329.885,"text":"第一案勞務收入向下的服務收入增列五千萬"},{"start":5345.114,"end":5359.047,"text":"好沒有問題我們接續處理第二案勞務成本航警局的部分我們李克哲委員提案好謝謝昭偉那有關於航警局的預算114年度大概是編列了39億6272萬"},{"start":5363.51,"end":5388.538,"text":"行情局當然他最重要的工作當然是維護相關的這個機場區域的安全秩序那相關的管制事項這一些我看到我們那個113年就是11月25號我國棒球員世界棒球十二強賽奪冠回來那現在這個會長就坐在我前面"},{"start":5389.938,"end":5408.287,"text":"那發生了這種機場業者上市拉布條等等的這種混亂的狀況要跟副總統合照甚至把球員都擠開了這個航警局管理我認為是有疏漏啦這個應該要嚴加檢討那我原本是提案凍結1億啦那"},{"start":5410.828,"end":5419.914,"text":"有來做說明之後我同意改動解一千萬那一個月內提出書面報告後解凍。好謝謝李委員。黃警局說明我們尊重委員的意見謝謝委員支持"},{"start":5429.419,"end":5432.5,"text":"因為當天的狀況是在管制區內那基本上管制區內是相對安全的一個狀態"},{"start":5449.146,"end":5471.621,"text":"當天我們因為副總統有臨時變更原來只是接機完之後再開記者會中間的這一段副總統並沒有要隨他們一起走但是後來臨時決定說副總統要跟著他們所以我們把人成立臨時一個調動所以在那個狀況之下可能在同仁這個在管制上有疏漏所以造成這個機場的業者能夠有機會進到這個副總統的身邊"},{"start":5476.164,"end":5487.907,"text":"所以這個部分我們後續我們會加強來這個檢討之後未來在相關的管制部分我們會加強警力的措施。有沒有程序?"},{"start":5487.907,"end":5501.631,"text":"呃,不然他一下子降下來降下來一千萬,我們李昭惠這個降下來之後以後我們怎麼"},{"start":5505.803,"end":5522.452,"text":"韓警局的相關預算他最重要的工作就是維護機場的整體的安全這些秩序的維護跟管理那我們提出這樣一個凍結一例經過這個韓警局有親自來做說明那我認為說有相關的這個檢討以及對日後的這種相關狀況的防範"},{"start":5527.675,"end":5547.293,"text":"所以我就同意一億降為一千萬最主要的是不容許再有這樣的事情發生並且提出經濟相關的秩序維護管理的這種作為並且在一個月內提出說明報告我想這樣就是我以上簡單的說明"},{"start":5548.654,"end":5548.674,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5568.266,"end":5597.826,"text":"那你們罰是用道交條例罰得比較便宜還是在機場場域你當然要罰比較重一點是完全沒辦法解決是不是這個跟委員報告事實上我們對這些攬客的黃牛我們都有掌握到對象而且列冊所以同仁只要發現這個黃牛在裡面活動我們都會做驅趕的動作但是現在問題就是說這些黃牛他基本上他本身都是脫產的你開了再多的罰單對他來講他不痛不癢"},{"start":5598.926,"end":5612.592,"text":"所以變成說未來可能還是要是不是可以請我們行政局的部分能夠做強制執行可能效果會比較好一點好我們進行第二段預算處理勞務成本行警局的部分總預算39億6272萬5千元齁這個凍結凍結一千萬請行警局提書面報告"},{"start":5627.492,"end":5643.981,"text":"後使得通知。好,各位有沒有其他意見?好,沒有意見。接續處理第3到4案勞務成本用人費用的部分。有兩位委員提案。有沒有要補充說明?來,郭總委員。"},{"start":5646.4,"end":5672.601,"text":"我想在這個部分啊特別從113年增累預算1億多然後114年那這個部分我們發現到用人的人事會的部分他是短缺的那我不曉得現在是業務收編或者對於員工的刻薄所以在這個部分我們發現到預算增累1億多"},{"start":5673.362,"end":5692.377,"text":"但是為什麼員工這個部分會減少所以我們還是蠻希望在這個部分先行凍結看看他們有什麼改進方向所以在這個第三案的部分本席主張凍結百分之三十好民航局說明"},{"start":5695.222,"end":5710.839,"text":"謝謝林委員的意見那今午我們再仔細把這個預算再把它查清楚其實主要是因為我們有一個加班費它減少的向下有一個叫那個未休假的加班費"},{"start":5712.06,"end":5738.296,"text":"那那個部分主要就是因為我們有一些人員離退了然後離退了以後用新的人員進來那他的不休假的我們所謂的不休假獎金不休假的日數比較少因為新進人員大概是7天那年資比較深的大概也可以到28天到30所以這個部分才會說變成預算來往下調整大概是這個原因那我們是建議是不是這個部分因為如果凍結30%我們建議凍結3000萬"},{"start":5741.218,"end":5745.161,"text":"然後我們向立法院交通委員會提出書面報告提書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":5769.028,"end":5779.458,"text":"各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有意見那接續處理第五到七案服務費用向下的水電費四位委員提案"},{"start":5783.226,"end":5808.385,"text":"李坤澤委員簡單說明一下那114年度的水電我們來看113年的預算是增加5285萬那比起112年的決算增加了4684萬那考量是因為當然是國境開放以及相關的電價調整水電費用支出是有增加的這個需要但是還是要"},{"start":5809.707,"end":5817.938,"text":"來做結約能源,而且要提出具體的做法。等一下請科技長簡單說明一下。好。"},{"start":5819.878,"end":5846.425,"text":"那我的部分也是跟這個昆澤委員我們的想法一樣啦因為你增加5000多萬啦比前一年多了將近18%啦18%喔那一般因為我們政府不斷的宣導不管是經濟部啦齁甚至行政院院級各個單位甚至有些不該開冷氣的啊或怎麼樣不斷的宣導要節能啦齁那我們這邊你說我都不用去做我們就是"},{"start":5847.185,"end":5863.535,"text":"大幅增加,坦白講民眾有些剝奪感,我的感覺是這樣。所以我這邊的提案是三減,就跟去年一樣,三減五千兩百八十五萬餘元,這是我個人建議。好那民航局說明。"},{"start":5865.688,"end":5888.989,"text":"謝謝委員我想有關這個水電費的部分主要原因就是我們114年在編列的時候其實已經沒有來得及反映113年的這個調漲就是112年的時候4月份有調漲大概17%然後今年又兩次4月跟10月分別調漲12%跟12.5那這個都是沒有那邊在我們114年預算"},{"start":5892.312,"end":5893.132,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5919.878,"end":5941.52,"text":"那至於有關節能的部分這個局因為這個是16我們十幾個航空站16個機場然後包含我們的飛航服務總台還有航警局所有的水電費所以建議這個部分是不是我們可以就是動資一千萬然後向立法院交通委員會提出書面報告動節一千萬"},{"start":5942.489,"end":5967.907,"text":"好 民航你又說明啊那我的想法是這樣啦試著來做一下處理跟決議就說我們現在提案的委員啦有凍結3減5000萬我是5200萬這樣好不好我們3減1000萬啦最主要鼓勵你們由政府帶頭在實際的節能這個部分做出一些貢獻這是最主要的一個目的啦那我們就3減也不要3減5000萬嘛3減1000萬然後勒"},{"start":5971.412,"end":5972.304,"text":"凍結多少?要凍結多少?"},{"start":5976.222,"end":5976.903,"text":"三減一千萬、凍結一千萬"},{"start":6006.142,"end":6008.744,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6023.855,"end":6045.79,"text":"所以說要看當然節約能源我跟魯昭偉都是同樣的想法我們身為政府機關這個都必須要節約能源這是一定的但是我們相關的你電費的漲價是漲多少然後在相關的這個運用畫面3.1千萬我是覺得有點多啦哎 蔡委員"},{"start":6053.397,"end":6075.227,"text":"我先講一下我的立場我基本上非常同意召委應該適度對於節約能源節能減碳有一個象徵性的意義所以本期才會提3減100這個就是希望說政府各單位你應該逐年有一個這樣的宣誓當然崑澤委員講的也很對啦到底你能不能"},{"start":6076.881,"end":6104.823,"text":"我們不能刪到譬如說你們把冷氣都關起來結果導致其他的問題產生所以我也接受啦但因為我也不知道是多少才是對的所以呢我才會提一個象徵性的就是跟主委的概念是這樣只是他跟主席的概念是這樣只是他一塊要賭一千喔我感覺我稍微緊張一下這樣賭就不知道會影響實際的運作沒有啦所以我才會提概念我是同意的啦就是應該有一個象徵的意義嘛好謝謝"},{"start":6106.602,"end":6126.805,"text":"好謝謝陳雪真委員這個三減喔水電費水電費應該漲價啦漲價然後我們國內外的旅客逐漸的增加這個要請何局長說明一下三減一千萬有沒有問題如果三減一千萬有問題的話當然我們要考慮好不好好我們民航局"},{"start":6127.469,"end":6154.526,"text":"好跟各位人報告齁其實我們的人數齁如果是用今年的一到十月來算齁跟去年來比的話是增加了14%齁那當然明年的呃旅客人士絕對還會再往上那114年編的預算是沒有包含今年的兩次的調漲就大概是24.5%那我們預估今年其實預算大概我們預估今年大概就會到達3.67億"},{"start":6157.288,"end":6166.234,"text":"所以如果刪1000萬其實我們原編其實已經有點不足所以建議是不是不要刪除那是不是用凍結的方式是確實不夠"},{"start":6168.14,"end":6193.057,"text":"我建議這樣好不好,就三減五百萬,凍結五百萬,然後你們對整個規劃然後做書面報告,凍結部分使得動之。不是啦,報告各位,不是三減五百萬、一千萬、兩千萬的問題,他現在已經調漲兩次都沒有計算在裡面,我建議用凍結的方式會比較好啦。"},{"start":6193.997,"end":6199.924,"text":"因為萬一不夠用怎麼辦?是不是?你三點五百萬有什麼意義?沒有什麼意義?就是三點而已啊是不是?"},{"start":6206.499,"end":6207.44,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":6226.762,"end":6250.658,"text":"5百萬然後你們提書面報告總是要說明一下嘛不然大家問那麼多好不好說明的話使凍結部分使得凍結書面報告還要重點是講如何強調節能減碳好不好這個是真的啦謝謝委員好那我們就做剛剛的一個處理方式接下來第8案第8案李委員要補充說明還是民航局"},{"start":6257.426,"end":6259.687,"text":"銀行局直接說明銀行局"},{"start":6277.495,"end":6278.616,"text":"提出書面報告。好,立委員。好,就轉動解。"},{"start":6308.413,"end":6314.28,"text":"好 第九案好 針對於第八案服務費用向下的油電費誒 是凍結多少"},{"start":6320.985,"end":6343.832,"text":"凍結100萬元提書面報告使得動之有沒有其他意見沒有沒有其他意見我們就接續審理第9到第10案其中是勞務成本向下的付費用向下的旅運費好旅運費兩位委員提案都不對來民航局說明一下有跟兩位委員去做說明嗎"},{"start":6346.272,"end":6361.638,"text":"這個部分也有說明那這個出國旅費的部分主要就是我們原編的預算以外我們114年是增編了先進國家航管系統規劃建置的一個國外的一個"},{"start":6363.319,"end":6363.679,"text":"預算基金分預算基金分"},{"start":6393.519,"end":6421.804,"text":"然後至於第10案的話第10案的話就是有關林委員提的這部分就是有關我們出國旅費的這個部分就是說兩岸的部分應該比較沒有復航的需求然後有關這個台南台中機場應該來善用開拓航線然後所以這個部分我們是建議是說因為我們今年"},{"start":6423.124,"end":6451.232,"text":"全國出國執行,我們大概可以達到年底的話到目前為止11月底是接近70%然後我們因為整個的執行來講因為有一些部分大概委員比較關心的是說有部分的項目沒有執行那主要原因大概就是有一筆是有關我們洽談航權的部分那這個部分是因為雙方因為是對方有到我們"},{"start":6452.412,"end":6452.872,"text":"基金分預算基金分"},{"start":6475.963,"end":6476.964,"text":"提出面報告後時的動機。以上說明。"},{"start":6492.972,"end":6507.1,"text":"好的,所以你的出國費用剛剛在民航局的預算裡面有兩筆嘛那在這邊有3700多萬是不同人不同單位出國嗎?都不同人嗎?"},{"start":6508.081,"end":6534.939,"text":"不同的齁因為在過去幾年你們的質詢的比例其實你們錢沒有需要這麼多啦不是三你們的到今年現在12月多了你說質詢對不對大概不到算七成好了算七成你三千多萬如果剩下三成的話就可以三一千萬喔所以委員提的是是幫你調整啦畢竟委員們在看預算你實際要用多少你實際這麼多年來你根本都用不掉嘛"},{"start":6535.399,"end":6551.489,"text":"你要做一個核實去做一個調整啦這個我想委員們也幫大家看緊荷包了我想這個兩位委員提的數字是差不多的啦那就針對於針對於這個旅運費的部分我們就3.4百萬還好啊可以啦真的不過分嘛因為兩位委員包括林俊賢委員也十分之一也是370萬還是你要林俊賢委員3.4分之一"},{"start":6566.424,"end":6592.982,"text":"這個部分還是是不是請委員可以再來支持因為旅運費下面因為剛剛講的是出國嘛其實有國內跟其他的那因為國外旅費這個部分如果我們三的太緊其實同仁在安排的時候很不好安排因為我們知道譬如說他出去的地點包含他要報名的費用還有包含他的那個機票的費用其實都有一些浮動那這個費用其實"},{"start":6593.863,"end":6594.863,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6612.148,"end":6638.361,"text":"所以這個費用沒有執行完還是會在民航作業基金可是我們是覺得這個每一個項目都有需要可是如果這樣三就會變有些項目可能得就沒辦法出就沒辦法去執行因為雖然是主辦方沒辦法辦理可是相關的出國或者是會尤其明年又是我們國際民航組織的第一應該是大會所以我們也要去進行相關的雙邊等等"},{"start":6639.682,"end":6640.903,"text":"預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":6662.796,"end":6685.882,"text":"你看多30萬可以用。跟委員報告一下因為行政院本身對於出國這件事情是非常管制嚴格的項目那剛剛如同局長講的假使我們原來的經費已經被刪掉了那大概就因為尤其現在飛機票那些都還在持續往上漲因為供需的問題所以會造成他們根本沒辦法規劃安排"},{"start":6686.542,"end":6687.723,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6717.183,"end":6730.515,"text":"去處理就好像剛剛講公務的部分那些東西也都可能是一次性因為學到了就不一定會再去除非有新東西出來所以我們是希望委員這邊大概用凍結我們把報告寫清楚一點讓委員知道我們到底怎麼樣規劃我們的出國"},{"start":6733.877,"end":6756.955,"text":"但是委員們審預算跟你的理解不太一樣不是我編了一大堆我隨便編剩下你放心還是會回公務預算我們審預算那就不要審了你就編一坨給我們反正你們隨便用用不完再回我們不是這樣啦你講一個項目看你過去的執行率嘛我們也要做功課啦看執行率那就夠用夠用你就是多編了啦"},{"start":6757.475,"end":6759.695,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6786.055,"end":6807.7,"text":"我代表林俊杰,你們同意嗎?我們三減兩百萬啦好不好一百一百好了意思一樣因為這也不是鋼也不是鐵不能吃的啦快去講能留用嗎?不行齁不能留用齁要不要尊重我尊重你啊就算一百萬啊好算一百萬好啦大家好尊重陳雪生委員齁這個"},{"start":6810.905,"end":6839.384,"text":"第九到十案勞務成本服務費用項面的旅運費三減一百萬好,謝謝委員好,各位沒問題接下來處理第十一案第十一案這個管理及總務費用項下的服務費用項下旅運費欸這個又是什麼旅運費說明一下這是旅費吧"},{"start":6843.089,"end":6866.631,"text":"還是民航局你也不知道沒有沒有我們分兩個剛剛是勞務勞務是就是我們的16個航空站加總台加那個航警局那這個管總是局本部的標準組非航管制組就是我們有7組一中心所有的出國啊各有專業啊航空站也有他需要出去啊總台非航服務總台也是"},{"start":6870.113,"end":6896.062,"text":"對其實其實民航局你在本預算跟民航基金出國預算其實我是充裕的雖然我們剛剛已經通過我們在那邊炒那個八十萬幾十萬其實感覺也沒什麼意義啦齁那這個部分有跟廖委員溝通嗎有溝通過溝通過啦齁但是沒有簽到同意書啦齁那這個部分就一樣啦齁我們就等比例齁等比例"},{"start":6899.212,"end":6916.736,"text":"等比例這邊3.50萬好不好好各位有沒有其他意見沒有好沒有意見我們繼續處理第12到第13案服務費用向下的修理保養及保固費總金額是11億2914萬餘元提案的委員有兩位"},{"start":6924.197,"end":6924.658,"text":"民航局說明"},{"start":6955.276,"end":6970.077,"text":"主要叫113年增加的原因就是加了1億多那主要原因就是因為我們航警局那個X光機的行李檢查儀跟電腦斷層齊滿了以後其實他要保固所以大概就編了快3000萬"},{"start":6971.458,"end":6989.52,"text":"再來就是我們有關台北站它要優化整個國際線的公用報告櫃台的一個系統然後還有一些閘門的智慧化的處理所以大概這邊是2700萬還有其他我們總台、台南、台中各個機場"},{"start":6990.481,"end":6990.741,"text":"基金分預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7014.597,"end":7040.868,"text":"那另外還有一筆就是因為高雄站的110今年我們已經完成所有的空橋的汰換所以整個空橋都需要做相關的一個處理然後還有整個台北站的內部的空橋內的一些地毯地板的裝修費用1000萬所以這一些那另外除了這一些是固定項目以外那因為要配合基本工資的調漲還有一些勞健保的調整所以整個部分才會有"},{"start":7041.288,"end":7062.244,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7063.784,"end":7091.625,"text":"坤德委員謝謝趙委員那經過何局長一個簡略的說明我們當然是對於相關機場的安全維護以及相關的對於提升旅客的服務效率那也提出一個很清楚的說明那我就尊重何局長的一個說明以及報告林國忠委員這邊提三選兩議你的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":7092.978,"end":7112.449,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7113.249,"end":7116.191,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7142.403,"end":7157.74,"text":"好的那民航局那後面幕僚單位這個向下今年的到目前為止的執行率到77將近八成但是因為我們可能核銷"},{"start":7159.833,"end":7183.832,"text":"合宵可能會就是比較delay因為11月的執行大概可能就是合宵到10月或是9月那還有就是說因為其實部分他其實是簽合約他可能是按計在付款所以他會在12月的時候可能就會執行就是合宵的數字會比起就是前面這幾個月會大增 112年的執行率那112的話其實我們還不夠其實執行到103%"},{"start":7189.036,"end":7190.058,"text":"第11屆第2會期交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":7203.396,"end":7231.938,"text":"那我覺得這個是我們是不是用凍結的方式好了因為我剛剛聽了蠻多都是國安非安議題啊不是有問題不是凍結的問題是他們在整個編列書裡面根本自己也講不清楚你們自己知道那委員當然不知道啊但是我們照比例來講你們去年還可以還可以沒有執行1億多那我3、2億那剛剛好而已啊"},{"start":7234.679,"end":7234.999,"text":"陳雪清委員"},{"start":7263.143,"end":7281.152,"text":"不過你們這個預算書啊,內容寫清楚嘛,郭正英兄很認真,我們國產委員很認真,是不是?你看你那個是多用了1億多,他怎麼少用了1億多,這樣3、2億也剛剛好啊?"},{"start":7285.939,"end":7313.128,"text":"112年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算113年度"},{"start":7318.832,"end":7342.892,"text":"剛剛有跟趙偉報告就是說其實因為我們現在才只有11月底的執行數字那因為其實有一些是按計付款的部分所以每一年到了12月底的時候其實他的核銷金額會就是比過往的那個月份要來的多對那我們預估其實今年應該也是用一定會用完而且可能還會有小超過這樣子"},{"start":7345.875,"end":7362.314,"text":"三檢多少?我還是主張啊因為我不管你們讓我們看不清楚讓我們誤解也好或者你們亂藏預算也好我認為這樣啦我的底線就三個五百吧好不好三個五百"},{"start":7363.208,"end":7375.079,"text":"好,因為11億2900多萬已經有一個人坐在旁邊我受到脅迫壓力啊脅迫壓力但是我跟你講通通不刪不行我們斷邊預算當然被委員認為對不對但是你中午中午便當算你的好"},{"start":7388.925,"end":7392.368,"text":"第12到第13案針對於服務費用修理保養及保固費用"},{"start":7408.817,"end":7410.517,"text":"第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7436.044,"end":7443.654,"text":"勞務成本向下的服務費用一般服務費總金額6億5209萬餘元有四位委員提案何新春委員"},{"start":7449.104,"end":7467.705,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7468.486,"end":7481.482,"text":"這個亂象當然是事前的評估跟動線規劃是完全不及格的那剛剛是航警局有說明那我覺得這個牽涉到航警局、國安人員還有就是我們桃園桃機機場"},{"start":7483.404,"end":7513.404,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7514.224,"end":7535.337,"text":"各部會各相關單位的溝通協調要做最充足的準備而且是做更多套的這個動線以及防範以及安全等等措施這些都要事先想清楚規劃清楚才不會嚴重的影響到這個國家的門面還有也"},{"start":7538.539,"end":7556.247,"text":"以及影響我們這些冠軍選手回國的尊嚴我覺得這個對他們是很不禮貌的所以我是提案著動一千萬希望給大家一個未來的警惕還有希望未來能夠規劃得更好以上好謝謝何委員"},{"start":7558.598,"end":7564.301,"text":"第15案針對疫情後航班出入越來越多,發覺降臥後的地安事件不斷發生,108年有7件,這是疫情之前,現在113年發生10件"},{"start":7579.528,"end":7602.398,"text":"包括了車子撞到飛機包含漏油等樣態也有人員撞械及闖入等意外事故所以我們真的是希望在民航作業基金一般的服務費用我們凍結20%希望針對具體的SOP提出之後來做一個專案報告使得動之這是我個人的意見"},{"start":7604.492,"end":7611.438,"text":"還有委員要說明嗎?沒有。好,民航局說明。謝謝委員,你有提案。好,你等一下。民航局先說明。"},{"start":7614.547,"end":7633.762,"text":"關河委員所提的部分就是有關在一些特殊活動在機場進行時就是由局裡還有這個航警等相關單位來做一些動線的規劃的一些訂定相關作業程這個部分我們會來配合辦理因為很有需要因為我們也總共我們有16個機場加淘機就17個"},{"start":7636.524,"end":7660.578,"text":"至於有關召委所提的這個地安事件的部分那112年全年度其實是25件那我們今年是大概降了一半是12件那有關這個地安的部分也是我們也會持續來加強要求那所以說這個部分我們是不是建議凍結然後這個然後提書面報告然後是不是可以凍結這個"},{"start":7664.741,"end":7670.093,"text":"一、一千萬這樣。凍結一千萬以上,謝謝委員。好,許志堅委員"},{"start":7674.953,"end":7702.392,"text":"謝謝主席那個民航局都有到我幫忙去溝通原則上我們都會支持但是有一件事我覺得還是要提出來就是說民航局其實我有跟局長提過部長也一起聽一下其實高雄我一直關心你看那個昨天有跟部長提到局長不在就是高雄那個田積品遠東的田積品遠東的飛機已經遷走了那高雄都還留在那邊站位置"},{"start":7703.092,"end":7704.052,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7726.292,"end":7732.482,"text":"這個建議是很辛苦的,我也跟局長說過,還有機會高雄機場公私化嗎?"},{"start":7733.919,"end":7762.614,"text":"我覺得那個部長這一次我們先過啦那是我覺得身為政務官要去思考長遠一點也就是說我今天將來高雄的16年後面的16年那我今天就是說如果沒有去做一個正本青年長遠的思考現在都頭頭一頭腳踏一腳結果我們拿的問題都沒辦法徹底解決所以當然今年的問題我們經費上我們沒有意見就是說能夠支持民航局支持交通部我們盡力來支持但是這是一個"},{"start":7763.635,"end":7764.916,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":7794.313,"end":7809.078,"text":"那針對於第14到第17案那這個部分民航局說明各位委員提的意見、問題、建議方向事實上都不太一樣那這樣的好不好我們這邊針對於這個向下我們凍結10%然後請"},{"start":7816.923,"end":7837.962,"text":"民航局提書面報告,使得動之民航局有沒有意見?謝謝委員好,各位委員沒有意見,那我們就這樣處理第18案第18案,針對於管理及總務費用向下的服務費用,一般服務費總金額是3086萬元"},{"start":7846.094,"end":7865.654,"text":"民航請說明一下有關這個第18案就是針對這個排班計程車的部分凍結30萬我們遵照辦理然後提書面報告好針對第18案管理及總務費用向下的服務費用一般服務費凍結30萬提書面報告使得動之"},{"start":7871.809,"end":7881.615,"text":"各位有沒有其他意見沒有我們接續處理第19到第24案勞務成本向下的服務費用專業服務費總金額3億5036萬餘元我們有蠻多委員提案的有沒有提案的 林俊憲委員"},{"start":7896.349,"end":7923.597,"text":"謝主席本期提議第23案就是我們明年度的勞務成本的專業服務費用待會先請交通部說明一下這筆費用在今年2024年到現在11月為什麼執行率只有61%同時在這項專業服務費裡面它其實無人機的管理是在這個部分不過今年7月"},{"start":7924.693,"end":7931.178,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":7949.594,"end":7973.125,"text":"像9月,今年9月就有國外電腦駭客組織攻擊國內的政府網站就造成松山機場官網流量過大我就當機了雖然沒有影響航班起降那可見我們這些都是我們機場都是受到攻擊的對象這個機場因為是有相當的國安"},{"start":7974.566,"end":7978.287,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":8006.442,"end":8008.09,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府"},{"start":8014.529,"end":8031.144,"text":"本席,針對民用航空局民航事業作業基金裡面有關業務成本與費用,專業服務費向下,其中有一部分經費是辦理遙控無人機操作運用及管理規則評估規劃及遙控無人機規範管理推動委員服務案,"},{"start":8034.787,"end":8064.787,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8064.987,"end":8065.147,"text":"基金分預算"},{"start":8086.491,"end":8087.031,"text":"基金分預算案附屬單位"},{"start":8115.302,"end":8144.07,"text":"好那我個人也有提兩案第一案跟林俊健委員就一樣了對於無人機的這個侵入機場重要機場的一個防衛機制看起來就是現在偵測到了然後後面的接續處理感覺還是有一點2266的這個部分真的是要想方設法中科院建制的偵防系統到底可以落實如何"},{"start":8144.91,"end":8159.74,"text":"那第23支議案最主要是看到你們的法律服務費用增加了180萬是準備要跟誰打官司可能要說明一下好那來林國成委員"},{"start":8163.141,"end":8183.76,"text":"本席是有提第20案那這個編列的預算當然我主張是刪減還凍結那等一下大家可以考慮一下還有另外那個24案的部分我也主張要刪然後這個部分也就是電腦軟體服務這個部分"},{"start":8186.783,"end":8189.424,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8206.75,"end":8218.721,"text":"這個問題我認為他只有這種系統更改而編列的預算這麼高所以這個是不是請局長或有關人員說明一下這樣再來做決定好,民航局說明謝謝委員有關這個"},{"start":8238.519,"end":8266.533,"text":"有關這個林委員剛剛有提到這個無人機防制的部分就是在松山高雄還有局的部分是松山高雄已經有建置這個無人機防制的系統那其他居民合用的系統是由軍方建置那南竿的部分因為南竿的就是他是比較屬於島嶼所以這個部分我們會跟國防部再來協調看看這個部分的防制的作業那有關那個陳偉"},{"start":8268.234,"end":8270.115,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8291.468,"end":8292.209,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8307.403,"end":8307.583,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8330.59,"end":8352.057,"text":"目前就可以偵測到知道這個無人機的位置之後我們就可以知道說這個有人機的部分的起降的安排所以這部分是對於整個機場的起降是有幫助的那所以說有關剛剛委員所提的部分至於治安的部分那個部分我是不是請同仁那個我們資訊組組長是委員"},{"start":8357.85,"end":8383.467,"text":"委員剛才提到有關於資安的一個部分由於我們的所屬台北、台中還有高雄這幾個航空站還有飛航服務總台都是我們的重要的關鍵基礎設施所以為了強化資安所以我們在今年這個部分有增列一部分資安的費用主要都是為了包含了像防火牆還有入侵防禦偵測的一個加強那以上"},{"start":8389.14,"end":8406.689,"text":"最後有關就是趙偉有提到的這個法律的事務費主要就是因為我們遠東在松山還有三架停在那裡然後高雄有兩架那所以說在這個法律事務因為要做一些強制執行跟一些相關的訴訟所以我們大概有增編了這一筆兩邊大概都100萬這樣"},{"start":8411.731,"end":8430.249,"text":"所以主要是希望說這個部分也可以建議凍結這個是不是10%整個案子然後提書面報告好 陳雪生委員其實我今天來開會我前面這個壓力蠻大的"},{"start":8434.149,"end":8461.403,"text":"不是說你們壓力很大剛才郡議員講到那個老公那邊無人機過來干擾當然會影響到我們飛航的安全但是這個是基於國防的一個考量所以如果把他打下來的話那就變成戰爭了所以這個有他的考量不過我跟郡議員報告我這次大陸書記馬上要到我們馬祖來參訪我跟他建議無人機不要到馬祖干擾要就跑到金門去"},{"start":8464.831,"end":8490.592,"text":"這個請你放心好不好大概不會再有類似的事情發生不過我跟郭政委員報告何局長上任不是我誇他他在行政上憑良心講保持中立沒有什麼哪一黨派的問題他做事情非常認真所以我今天來也是給他一個鼓勵所以你站在我前面你不要有任何的壓力好不好你該刪就刪好不好"},{"start":8491.53,"end":8506.218,"text":"好不好你該刪就刪不過我還是幫他講個話啦他表現真的很好我希望能夠聽得到他的說明啊我們各刪一百萬就好了好不好謝謝了趙偉謝謝跟你建議"},{"start":8507.455,"end":8534.2,"text":"好那我們來處理這個19到第24案吼那先處理刪除的部分有三位委員提了4案涉及刪減的部分吼那刪減的部分呃有刪2000萬呃我個人是針對於法律的部分是刪除20%的吼那欸國政委員總共刪了8000萬吼然後廖先生委員是100萬那這樣好不好就"},{"start":8544.938,"end":8548.259,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8557.732,"end":8583.406,"text":"在審預算的當中當然因為我個人的看法就是說編列不當或重複編列當然該三則三那該給還是會給那我在想說因為我原來當然因為何局長也去解釋那有一個部分也就是說他解釋的就是三減的這些六千萬這個部分他事後有去解釋"},{"start":8584.667,"end":8586.348,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8606.255,"end":8623.648,"text":"因為平常的這些這個網路是他們在做然後改一個層次就編列300萬所以這個部分我認為把它刪200萬好那我整合一下意見刪減200萬然後凍結10%提書面報告10%的通知各位委員有沒有其他意見"},{"start":8636.157,"end":8637.822,"text":"謝謝委員好 休息5分鐘"},{"start":8641.738,"end":8650.221,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":8670.247,"end":8692.108,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":8692.448,"end":8701.551,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":8718.285,"end":8727.89,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分"},{"start":8744.52,"end":8749.304,"text":"預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":8775.967,"end":8781.554,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8793.189,"end":8795.311,"text":"預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分"},{"start":8816.768,"end":8821.55,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":8837.096,"end":8843.059,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":8863.507,"end":8886.015,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8886.335,"end":8886.675,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8902.302,"end":8905.023,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8918.087,"end":8919.067,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":8936.154,"end":8945.419,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算非營業部分"},{"start":8972.65,"end":8979.713,"text":"接下來繼續審民航基金預算現在是第25案管理及總務費用向下的服務費用專業服務費總金額10656萬餘元"},{"start":8987.837,"end":8988.197,"text":"陳主席委員"},{"start":9008.152,"end":9030.141,"text":"回顧在今年3月初的時候就是有發生在桃園機場南跑道進行稅休那這個桃機公司對於就是當時的航班的一個起降的這樣子的航班流量就是可能沒有掌握到實際的狀況所以缺乏應變的備援計畫跟準備造成當時很多架的班機起降延誤改時"},{"start":9031.201,"end":9032.302,"text":"關於交通部及民航局是民用機場的一個主管機關所以我們希望"},{"start":9050.64,"end":9073.416,"text":"民航局針對未來如果遇到民用機場跑道稅休等類似的事件的時候要確立相關的事務的一個統籌然後還有這個備援計畫及航管協調等統一作業的流程一定要有一個確實的一個飛航的一個計畫所以這邊我們希望他提出一個報告在提出報告之後使得動之謝謝好民航局邱銘"},{"start":9077.849,"end":9105.476,"text":"謝謝委員有關這一案呢我就是委員剛剛所提的就是說有關機場我們稱為航空站經營人因為我們有17個機場那他在做跑道稅修的時候確實是需要跟航空公司還有這個執行工程的業者做相關的一些統籌規劃或者是安全影響的部分那所以說我們建議這一案我們是遵照辦理我們建議文字修正那文字修正的部分我們有影印在桌上"},{"start":9106.096,"end":9118.757,"text":"這一個部分那就請委員參考改組決議沒有吧沒有文字修正文字修正文字修正部分"},{"start":9123.271,"end":9127.153,"text":"第二段就是機場公司除了程序性、例行性、開會說明、頒發公告就備員計劃如何與航管單位協調外"},{"start":9149.973,"end":9167.885,"text":"對於航空站經營人如何與各航空業者、航廈工程業者協調、統籌規劃及安全影響評估為真完善。據交通部這個部分就照錄然後第三段我們就建議說第二行的部分"},{"start":9169.066,"end":9191.118,"text":"就是我直接念建啟好了建啟民航局針對未來如預民用機場跑道稅休等類似事件航空站經營人如何確立相關事務統籌備援計劃及航管協調統一作業流程以符合機場飛航安全市民航局於三個月向立法院交通委員會提出署免報告使得動質"},{"start":9193.686,"end":9210.633,"text":"OK 可以沒有意見好 針對於第25案做以下處理針對於管理及總務費用向下的服務費用專業服務費凍結10%對不對 凍結10%提出書面報告使得凍資好 沒有意見接下來我們處理26到27案提案委員有兩位有沒有要補充說明"},{"start":9223.553,"end":9235.482,"text":"我不一定三啦我可以動啦那只是說看是不是能夠請民航局就是預算執行到50%之後提署名報告然後再看成效再決定是否解凍這樣子"},{"start":9236.653,"end":9262.71,"text":"好了謝謝廖先祥委員來民航局針對這兩案來說明謝謝廖委員跟林國成林委員所提的有關我們這個推展費其實是給我們16個航空站加我們飛航服務總台跟航警局的相關宣導那裡面會增加的原因主要就是其實我們在做的都是跟飛安有關的比如說無人機啦或者是"},{"start":9263.71,"end":9282.648,"text":"放有礙飛案物體或者是有關飛機上限制使用一些電話電子用品危險物品或者是雷射燈光等等那主要會增加就是因為這裡面也包含了一些相關宣導就是高雄我們高雄機場今年要做那個高雄數位博物館"},{"start":9283.268,"end":9309.789,"text":"那它裏面就是會介紹有關跟機場相關的一些業務所以這個部分有增加了60萬那我們是不是建議就是說不要減劣那就是凍結10%然後等到像交通委員會就推展費的具體使用說明後再提出書面報告這樣以上說明好的那林國成委員就是不減劣凍結你的看法如何"},{"start":9311.91,"end":9329.81,"text":"其實這個金額是很少啦那因為局長有提供因為我們我有要求他所辦過的去年所辦過的東西那特別要提醒局長我要你們提供的你們把相片拿來也不說明也不講清楚這個我還是建議啦"},{"start":9330.691,"end":9332.052,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9353.827,"end":9365.125,"text":"動結10%提書面報告使得動之各位有沒有其他意見沒有其他意見我們接續處理第28案勞務成本向下的材料及用品費用"},{"start":9367.287,"end":9384.96,"text":"提案委員來林委員好這個因為其實這個三個也算蠻少的啦一億都只有三減三百萬這是對於幾個我們比較有疑慮的東西啊你們也講不清楚所以這個部分希望大家可以"},{"start":9386.181,"end":9412.87,"text":"所以希望民航局這裡可以遵照辦理因為我們檢的算很少其他的部分因為我有兩岸那兩岸像一百多億的這個部分我們都還主張在能凍結百分之三十那我希望檢列的部分就如照檢列的部分"},{"start":9414.89,"end":9422.313,"text":"好,針對第28案就3.3百萬好不好,好,3.3百萬好,各位沒有意見,接續處理第29案第29案主要是固定資產建設改良擴充向下的專案計畫相關於桃園航空城機場園區用地取得計畫"},{"start":9448.669,"end":9456.598,"text":"來 林委員因為我們是建議我們是建議凍結本來是50%可是經過解釋以後我們也同意凍結30%民航局有沒有意見"},{"start":9469.983,"end":9492.801,"text":"委員是那我沒辦法因為這一筆錢是給那個桃園他們做那一些安那個安加發那個安置重建補助費還有一些安置住宅或者是安置借過的相關費用是按預算是不是可以凍結10%然後那個提書面報告這個有我們召集人啊因為桃園是你的地區吧"},{"start":9495.046,"end":9517.487,"text":"因為我是主張說本來原來我是凍結50%那經過他們溝通我也同意降下來30%那因為我每一樣都是30%可是從來從來就是主席裁定10%那是不是建議主席看看因為反正要凍嘛這個只是報告而已嘛還要看主席"},{"start":9520.37,"end":9530.324,"text":"第二十九案固定資產建設改良擴充鄉下專案計劃桃園航空城機場園區用地取得計劃針對140"},{"start":9535.169,"end":9553.076,"text":"5億餘元我們凍結10%然後提供書面報告使得動之在這裡提醒一下針對於整個的一個計畫你要再說明一下因為大家很多人為了時程有些民眾的問題最近有一些那個集合住宅希望能夠納入請你一併說明好不好"},{"start":9554.71,"end":9568.893,"text":"好,各位有沒有其他意見沒有其他意見我們接續處理第30至31案針對於固定資產建設改良擴充向下專案計劃針對於高雄國際機場新航廈第一期工程計劃我們高雄的委員有提案凍結有跟徐委員溝通嗎有溝通過這個我們遵照辦理遵照辦理是嗎"},{"start":9588.7,"end":9594.864,"text":"針對第30至31項做以下處理其中固定資產建設改良擴充專案計劃高雄國際機場新航廈第一期工程計劃"},{"start":9622.291,"end":9639.646,"text":"凍結1700萬提書面報告使得動之各位委員有沒有其他意見沒意見我們接續處理第32到33案固定資產建設改良擴充專案計劃又是桃園桃園國際機場第三航廈安檢儀器設備採購中長期個案計劃兩位委員有提案來林俊賢委員"},{"start":9649.52,"end":9649.92,"text":"二、繼續審查"},{"start":9662.225,"end":9665.127,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金分預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":9688.923,"end":9706.9,"text":"就被查到部分零組件是來自中國的軍火集團這個恐怕會有治安的疑慮那今年2024年淘機的第三航廈的採購首體拖運行李X光機的得不到廠商也曾發生疑似弊案"},{"start":9707.961,"end":9709.622,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9728.96,"end":9756.762,"text":"這是民航局還是航警局的業務?來,航警局的邱局長跟委員報告這個第三航廈的這個安檢設施基本上它全部的預算有18億那逐年編列預算那因為它的設備事實上是要跟第三航廈的硬體設施相結合所以我們在去年的時候就委託由陶磯公司來統一發包那已經招標出去了"},{"start":9757.342,"end":9766.845,"text":"所以在今年有3億多明年有1600多萬剛剛林委員特別提到的就是說在設備過去曾經發現過有中國的相關設施"},{"start":9772.607,"end":9790.974,"text":"這個部分我們在規格設定的時候就已經把它排除掉了就是限制不得有中國相關的產業的設備或是零件在我們的設施當中那未來我們在驗收的時候也會針對這個部分來加強做一個控管那另外的就是說"},{"start":9792.274,"end":9816.359,"text":"因為這個部分是逐年編列預算那明年這個1600萬可能一開始在年初的時候我們就要給廠商所以這個部分特別是不是拜託委員可不可以修改這個相關的文字一方面原來二分之一是不能減少到凍結十分之一然後提出書面報告之後來凍結以上報告"},{"start":9821.542,"end":9843.979,"text":"林國忠委員最主要還是我們關心是人力的問題啦因為商行下未來不管是民航局也好不管是航警局也好在這個部分確確實實人員的缺乏所以我們還是利益良善現在很流行用利益良善我們還是要鞭策他們人員要補足"},{"start":9844.699,"end":9872.802,"text":"不要一行下二行下的缺點在三行下人員不足的情況之下把品質拉得很低所以我還是建議啦就由主席裁定當然凍結以後凍結其目的主要是他們做到什麼讓我們委員會去了解讓我們立法委員也知道他們的方向做到哪一個地方所以我們也沒有主張刪除只有在凍結的部分由主席去做裁決"},{"start":9874.38,"end":9902.357,"text":"好 謝謝兩位林委員那針對於第三十二、三十三案來民航局說明一下不好意思剛剛那個因為業務面刪減或者是凍結的部分邱局長說明那這個裡面有一個文字我先提建議就是說民航局的部分是不是可以改成航警局三十二案對 沒有錯 航警局黃同義是"},{"start":9903.755,"end":9930.745,"text":"好你沒問題吧是是是好好針對於32到33案科目是固定資產建設改良擴充專案計劃台灣機場台灣國際機場第三航廈安檢儀器設備採購中長期個案計劃我們凍結10%提書面報告使得弄知各位有沒有不同意見沒有好"},{"start":9932.918,"end":9955.732,"text":"但是真的是拜託啊那委員通過啊最怕第一個你所托非人第二個勒那個機器齁奇奇怪怪的沒有達到這個部分我們真的希望發布單位你們好好檢討在書面報告也要寫清楚好我們繼續處理第34案到35案科目是固定資產建設改良擴充專案計畫松山機場松山機場國際航線"},{"start":9961.088,"end":9975.616,"text":"國際航廈耐震補強裝修及設施更新計劃這樣是很危險的是不是當然你先說明一下好不好民航局說明一下那個有關松山機場的耐震補強確實其實這個案子"},{"start":9978.057,"end":10007.141,"text":"舉例已經處理滿多年齁那在100年的時候大概委員關心就100年的時候其實我們有完成過這個耐震補強不過因為這個建築師因為被檢舉有設計不實所以我們其實也把建築師去懲戒了那整個後來第二航廈已經做了相關補強跟改善那這一次呢我們這個案子是針對松山機場的第一航廈那因為這一個航廈已經真的是比較老舊然後六十幾年"},{"start":10008.622,"end":10027.057,"text":"對,那所以說這個耐震補強的作業是有必要,我們已經也奉行政院核定,所以會從明年114年做到121年,那大概整個經費是21億,那主要就是因為它是一個營運中的機場,而且它的耐震補強方式是要用那個擴注或者是加減力牆。"},{"start":10028.198,"end":10056.813,"text":"所以對整個營運我們也會用那個就是邊營運邊施工所以他是比較特殊那因為這一筆費用是因為委外的第一筆就是447萬等於是頭期款6%然後案子所以他這個部分我們是建議是不是可以用凍結20%然後向交通委員會提出書面報告後再凍結以上說明謝謝好這個民航局的說明那我們兩位委員有沒有補充意見"},{"start":10061.212,"end":10062.313,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10082.225,"end":10084.126,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10102.19,"end":10102.931,"text":"提早討論解決方案。以上。好,謝謝廖委員。林國忠委員補充嗎?"},{"start":10126.004,"end":10144.234,"text":"嚴則性也是凍結,現在局裡面還有先想說百分之二十那就百分之二十,反正這個寫個報告然後這個一定要做的工程基本上我們還是支持就是凍結讓我們了解一下進度這樣也好,嚴則性我也同意"},{"start":10146.076,"end":10152.805,"text":"第34、35案做以下處理固定資產建設改良擴充專案計劃松山機場國際線航廈耐震補強裝修及設施更新計劃"},{"start":10163.17,"end":10177.9,"text":"動輒20%提供書面報告使得動之。各位有沒有不同意見?沒有。好,那我們繼續處理第36案。36案的科目是固定資產建設改良擴充向下的一般建築及設備計畫。"},{"start":10180.823,"end":10183.566,"text":"立法院第11屆第36次全體委員會議"},{"start":10203.581,"end":10227.108,"text":"那你明年編了30億你可以執行嗎?為什麼過去的執行率那麼差?尤其像今年今年就是剛剛我們幾位委員關心的那種機場外觀風貌改造計畫這風貌改造共有四個案沒有一個案有執行全部不到5%那發生什麼問題?工程執行率為什麼那麼差?"},{"start":10228.148,"end":10229.869,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10244.247,"end":10264.702,"text":"謝謝林委員那有關這一案一般建築及設備的部分主要執行率沒有預期主要第一個就是剛剛提到的市離島的這個就是青梅汪安綠島蘭嶼因為他已經20幾年都沒改建所以特別辦了這個案子不過在招標的過程中因為是在離島所以不容易招標那不過"},{"start":10265.943,"end":10291.63,"text":"就是我們也努力去處理那今年終於綠島蘭嶼已經已經辦理已經辦理招標已經7月就決標然後已經要開工了那另外兩岸七美跟望安我們也會持續來辦理這個招標來滾動那另外有一岸是高雄機場的北側圍牆的部分那因為它是有因為法令變更的問題所以增加了一些項目"},{"start":10292.19,"end":10317.492,"text":"那所以說有關這一項裡面還有松山機場的10號跑道頭的用地取得跟相關的整建因為土地所有人有訴訟所以執行沒辦法符合預期那所以說這部分我們是建議凍結十分之一然後提書面報告這樣以上說明謝謝好另外林俊賢委員是要三解一議要嗎"},{"start":10322.628,"end":10324.61,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10344.195,"end":10357.718,"text":"沒有一個規劃你是自己規劃還是委外規劃我不清楚啦但你那個最基本的就你剛剛的報告嘛像高雄機場那個圍牆生了土地救護那些問題造成你沒有辦法來執行工程嘛"},{"start":10359.945,"end":10362.167,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10382.847,"end":10384.408,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10410.378,"end":10411.519,"text":"我代表林基建還代表林國臣發言"},{"start":10438.018,"end":10462.103,"text":"何局長,基金委員講的不是沒有道理?你土地沒有取得你編預算幹什麼?你編的預算也是空編的啊,是不是?你土地要取得嘛,你要有所有權啊你沒有所有權你現在編了3億,我跟你編50億也沒有用啊你執行不了嘛,是不是?你怎麼發包?你敢發包嗎?是不是?你不敢發包嗎?"},{"start":10463.331,"end":10473.773,"text":"所以我覺得你要斟酌一下你預算變那麼多你要斟酌一下不是說什麼3.1億、1000萬不是這個問題我覺得要砍的話3億都可以刪掉3億都應該要刪掉你自己講好了你們說明一下不是1000萬的問題這不是1000萬的問題你土地取得沒有你刪了1000萬我跟你講你決算你又出不來了"},{"start":10493.806,"end":10513.672,"text":"你就保留預算你也弄不出來?那個已經通過了啦你不覺得土地都OK了嗎?那個是去年的預算啦土地都好了嗎?其實它是執行中的案子有爭議已經在執行中的案子喔?對是執行中發生爭議那個不要刪嘛為什麼要刪一千萬幹什麼?因為他要發包啊是不是你刪他一千萬幹什麼我不懂啊"},{"start":10515.356,"end":10538.29,"text":"好謝謝剛剛是他講的法律案件是之前的案子在113年編的預算那因為現在執行率非常差幾趴而已那為什麼在年初的時候或者去年審預算的時候你編這麼多預算你不知道林俊賢委員的意思是這樣的那其實你知道嗎你們的剛剛你講你們人欠這麼多固定業務"},{"start":10539.795,"end":10558.65,"text":"放在固定的幾個人身上你預算堆疊你前岸未清然後後面要發包其實我講真的你自己要注意這個你的員工的工作量他能不能吃這個吃不消啊所以3.1合理啦欸?行政院主席有沒有來?行政院主席有沒有來?欸?他都沒有質疑他要處分了你還記過以上處分欸是不是這樣?"},{"start":10570.382,"end":10597.078,"text":"欸 處長快講他沒有他沒有超過百分之八十的話有問題的欸是要寫檢討報告沒有錯這報告寫得出來嗎欸你不要你郭陳修你不要再護航了我跟你講齁好啦我沒意見啦好不好對啦我剛剛已經說了嘛因為不同意見發表完了之後就是"},{"start":10600.299,"end":10602.24,"text":"第三十六案做以下處理"},{"start":10618.769,"end":10645.306,"text":"固定資產─這個科目我們3減5千萬,凍結10%提書面改善報告,使得凍資。好,各位有沒有不同意見?沒有,好那接下來處理決議案,主決議的部分37案到47案,請委員翻到第37案好,37案我的案子,來,民航局"},{"start":10646.747,"end":10673.395,"text":"我們就是遵照辦理然後專案報告改書面報告好 同意好 修正文字後通過這第37案 38案謝謝 遵照辦理38案照案通過如果委員你要補充說明的麻煩舉個手好 第39案那個專案改書面遵照辦理"},{"start":10675.236,"end":10698.197,"text":"好 修正文字後通過第40案 遵照辦理好 第40案照案通過第41案修正文字就是倒數第二行就是要求民航局應持續爭取比照好 文字修正部分林國忠委有意見"},{"start":10701.061,"end":10726.537,"text":"好第41案修正文字通過第42案修正文字就是倒數第二行要求民航局一四年六月向立法院交通委員會提出十項計畫書面進度報告就是刪除以六個月為期的以跟個好邱委員同意"},{"start":10727.597,"end":10753.242,"text":"好 那就照 修正文字後通過第43案 遵照辦理43案照案通過44案遵照辦理44案照案通過45案遵照辦理45案照案通過46案遵照辦理46案照案通過47案遵照辦理47案照案通過"},{"start":10757.023,"end":10761.647,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10783.956,"end":10785.497,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10807.671,"end":10817.519,"text":"明天一開始你們就頒獎了,不要玩真的。這樣很激烈。這場公司是大家等待已久的啊。"},{"start":10823.184,"end":10828.607,"text":"預算案附屬單位預算基金分預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":10876.106,"end":10884.992,"text":"附屬單位預算附屬單位預算附屬單位預算附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附"},{"start":10893.894,"end":10898.317,"text":"附屬單位預算附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位附屬單位"},{"start":10900.581,"end":10916.107,"text":"銀業預算請大家參照建議併案及預算表我們依這個次序來審理首先第一到四案是針對於營業收入,營業收入是給你們鼓勵啦就覺得目前編了241億7268萬餘元那這個部分就大家覺得都要增列啦"},{"start":10922.29,"end":10924.453,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10941.588,"end":10964.615,"text":"謝謝主席,那本席提的是第三案那就是針對有關這個陶基公司114年度勞務收入轉機過境設施使用費收入那他明年度是編列收入預算數是15億9600萬元那本席提案裡面這裡不好意思第二段的前面有一個物質的部分就是114年度這應該是113年度"},{"start":10967.936,"end":10990.66,"text":"113年度的預算我們台積公司針對轉機過境設施使用費編列收入8億5479萬多那截至今年8月底收入就已經達到20億6665萬元了所以我們依據今年這樣子的一個收入那我是覺得說明年這樣子的預算數收入是有比較保守所以本席是提增列1億5000萬元好謝謝好林紀健委員"},{"start":10995.808,"end":11022.083,"text":"現在主席本期是提第2案第4案可能是疫情以後那當然陶基現在非常繁忙那我看今年的收入2024年我提的第2案是針對轉機過境旅客一個人收500塊你的諮詢率到10月就162%了另外第4案營業收入包括各項租金、權利金、租賃"},{"start":11024.185,"end":11026.526,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11047.261,"end":11056.713,"text":"這個一定要提高吧不然你這樣看起來實在是我認為有嚴重低估啦那也請說明一下"},{"start":11059.844,"end":11078.257,"text":"好,非常謝謝各位的提案沒有錯,今年淘機的營運的狀況一估到12月底應該會到4460萬左右那比原來原便預算的時候的人數會增加不過這裡面一個是人次、旅次的這個增加一個是收入的部分的一個對照"},{"start":11079.678,"end":11103.766,"text":"收入的部分我們現在也發現一個狀況就是疫情過後這個旅客的組成跟消費形態在改變當中所以我們現在非常的重視要怎麼樣去做一個適當的分析那各位委員的提案裡頭運量的部分我們目前已經按照現在的運量在114年度的運量我們預估是10723萬人次當然這個希望能夠再增加"},{"start":11106.547,"end":11113.412,"text":"這個勞務收入的部分大概目前估計起來還可以再調整我們建議的額度是一億五千萬以上"},{"start":11115.492,"end":11141.415,"text":"好 這個案子爭議不大啦齁 那只有金額的差別林俊賢委員兩個加起來總共是增加6億齁 然後陳碩友委員一億五千萬嘛我百分之三十齁 我百分之三十最少 數字最少那這樣好不好 我們就增加5億啦好不好好 尊重主席好增加5億給你們鼓勵嘛齁可以啦什麼叫增加太少"},{"start":11142.996,"end":11164.008,"text":"報告委員因為我們在疫後淘機的運量在疫後去年112年是成長最多的爆發性成長從112年500萬成長到去年是3500萬等於去年一年就增加3000萬但是今年的部分還是持續成長不過這個成長的力道已經趨緩今年大概"},{"start":11164.548,"end":11166.029,"text":"預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":11195.469,"end":11196.57,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":11216.414,"end":11240.533,"text":"五、要請問是服務費用的水電費五位委員有提案有沒有要補充說明的?崑澤委員我請陶基公司說明一下因為電價當然是有調整那其實我們去估算在明年度的這個相關的電費的部分我們編的預算足不足以支應這個預算這個電費的部分應該可以清楚的說明"},{"start":11242.444,"end":11243.245,"text":"秋魏華委員秋魏華委員"},{"start":11261.038,"end":11286.819,"text":"那其中是主要是電費為主要支出嘛那四大項共編列了8億4900萬那因此那也因為節能減碳是國際的趨勢那因此減碳主要要聚焦在減少電力的使用提升能源的效率啊那基礎上也是我國重要的國門嘛那應該代表我國的形象也應該要跟國際接軌所以電費不應該過度編列以上好謝謝邱委員"},{"start":11288.956,"end":11309.694,"text":"那幾位委員提案的一個方向還蠻一致的啦那如果沒有其他意見是不是請我們董事長來說明是,非常謝謝各位委員的提案確實沒有錯,電費現在已經是成本已經在增高所以淘氣公司我們在用電或者用水同步都在進行節能減碳"},{"start":11310.895,"end":11335.374,"text":"包括剛才部長特別提醒我們現在在橋漆、橋墊的部分現在是積極的進行當中另外目前機場公司裡面的用電系統最大的當然就是場域裡面的冷氣或者是電梯、電扶梯等等那這些設備都已經在做這個節冷的這個態換這個機械的態換另外跑道的燈光也是全部都改成了LED燈了這在節冷跟減碳的部分"},{"start":11336.295,"end":11343.167,"text":"至於說預算編列的部分非常謝謝剛剛委員提到我們有沒有可能預算還不夠實用今年度編的預算"},{"start":11344.295,"end":11366.284,"text":"按照過去的這個上一個年度的預算我們是增加了2.6億不過今年台電公司有113年4月份跟10月份兩次的這個調漲電價高壓電價的部分調漲的幅度比較高兩個加起來大概是32%那這個部分的預算其實我們在編列的時候並沒有把它涵蓋進來所以預估這個預算8.49億的預算我們在節能在"},{"start":11372.768,"end":11392.686,"text":"做一些努力以後看看這個預算能不能在這個範圍裡面來使用不過類似這樣的情況過去的電價調漲因為調漲宣布的時間都在預算編列之後所以這種情況還是會發生那以這樣的狀況8.49億的預算建議不要做這個刪減那我們會盡量做節電的措施以上"},{"start":11395.114,"end":11411.542,"text":"好那這個水電費這樣好不好我們是不是就比照剛剛在民航發展基金嗎民航基金裡面處理的方式啊他們剛剛因為我們是希望說真的節能啊很多的措施你們要努力啦所以剛剛他是3.4億啊我們最終是討論3.1百萬啊你現在是8.7億嘛那我們3、2百萬好不好"},{"start":11418.277,"end":11422.721,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11447.415,"end":11448.757,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":11467.645,"end":11489.34,"text":"沒有意見了啦是大家都沒意見了我只是補充報告一下剛剛報告的內容有一項可能特別要跟各位報告一下我們第三航廈的工程在明年的年中的時候被登記廊廳要開始取用所以我們的設置範圍增加了那這部分的用電費用其實也是需要有一些這個預算的一個控制那以上做補充報告謝謝"},{"start":11492.23,"end":11517.043,"text":"好,針對於第五案到第九案做一下處理科目服務費用水電費三減一千萬做一下處理各位有沒有不同意見好,沒有不同意見我們繼續處理第十到第十二案服務費用的旅運費總共是一千三百六十二萬餘元有沒有聽到我一定要補充說明的"},{"start":11520.166,"end":11547.317,"text":"好,這個機長公司,欸?誰?好,邱榮華委員謝謝主席,那本席提的是第10案那主要是看到那個執行率為73.6%如果這個執行率不到90%那就表示在執行上面有問題那單就執行率來看所以本席這邊提檢列那這邊檢列百分,我看一下百分之十好,陳雪真委員"},{"start":11550.34,"end":11577.955,"text":"欸!水電費不要刪那麼多好不好?旅運費啦!旅運費啦!水電費呢?水電費已經處理結束了!結束了?對對對!現在旅運費!旅運費!蛤?旅運費啦!但是你可以補充說明該成為...沒有!我是怕水電費不夠!因為...因為我跟你講!我自己我有出國從桃園機場走喔!那個真的不夠用我跟你講!"},{"start":11581.062,"end":11601.888,"text":"這個會有衝突啦就是我們現在在做節能檢測所以用電來替換你講第三行下你不要講那些講那些沒有用你第三行下我還是支持不是二行下啦一行下二行下你講這個你不要講那個你們根本都沒有做嘛節能減碳的措施你們都沒有做不是我剛才在打電話"},{"start":11606.297,"end":11622.652,"text":"不要撿一千萬啦,那個誰?誰電費啊?郭春雄?沒有,我們委員都在嘛,我們委員都在沒關係啊。我不是說回頭啦,剛才趁著我打電話。好不好?剛剛民航局打給你啊?"},{"start":11624.744,"end":11628.225,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11653.786,"end":11670.966,"text":"好了五百了他同意了五百了我們再減少一點三百了三百好了三百你不想聽我的嗎弄老半天真是的三百了好不好三百民進黨有沒有意見各位"},{"start":11673.669,"end":11686.999,"text":"民進黨的 你看民進黨都沒意見了 我們還有什麼意見我聽誰說的 三、三百萬 三百萬啦 啊 國際運動公會OK了好 大家有沒有 沒有 其他意見 沒有好 那針對於第五到"},{"start":11689.08,"end":11691.662,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":11709.073,"end":11723.52,"text":"好OK同意那沒意見了好那我們繼續處理旅運費旅運費的部分那有3減150萬的50萬的3減10%10%就大概136萬好那我這樣好不好旅運費就3減100萬好不好可不可以補充報告一下不可以"},{"start":11739.386,"end":11765.851,"text":"不是啦我們加速一點這種沒有爭議的地方快一點啦你這一千三百多萬刪除一百萬不影響啦好啦建議三五十萬建議三五十萬好各位有沒有什麼其他意見的話做處理喔好那就尊重林國臣委員啦好"},{"start":11769.551,"end":11777.955,"text":"好,針對於第10到第12案做以下處理服務費、旅運費用3.50萬元好,接下來13到21案"},{"start":11788.073,"end":11798.379,"text":"服務費用稍等一下我先把科目念一下服務費用向下的修理保養與保固費總金額是22億6362萬餘元好先請林區監委員好謝謝主席本期題第17案"},{"start":11808.644,"end":11813.705,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":11837.23,"end":11854.323,"text":"只剩單一跑道起降導致了141個班之延誤12班航機轉降其他機場影響了57,600多名旅客旅客怨聲載道這是在有損國門形象甚至後續還被監察院糾正"},{"start":11857.318,"end":11883.286,"text":"同時當時也造成飛機在空中盤旋這影響安全非同小可所以稅修工程應該要有SOP你應該要有相關的配套哪有稅修工程搞到機場大亂所以本席提議第17案的修理保養與保固費用凍結十分之一請投機提出針對稅修工程應該訂定標準和作業程序"},{"start":11884.42,"end":11890.803,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":11913.65,"end":11942.472,"text":"6月,航廈屋頂防水工程做防水工程做到漏水導致二航廈的美思區漏水8月,二航廈又因為下大雨原本是雨水要排除的管線反而也漏水9月,自來管線回填工程做到破管又影響航廈、機場、飯店用水那兩天在機場的李克安住在飯店的都沒有水"},{"start":11944.742,"end":11946.043,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11962.267,"end":11964.569,"text":"我看我們光是修漏水都可以蓋一棟新的"},{"start":11992.527,"end":11993.147,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12014.378,"end":12016.74,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12038.614,"end":12040.335,"text":"核心準委員核心準委員核心準委員核心準委員"},{"start":12067.412,"end":12095.477,"text":"因為不是只有一次啊是一而再、再而三啊那每次都跟我們講說是因為航廈老舊、建築物老舊但是呢每次修修補補那為什麼補不好那寮寮我知道是不好寮但是你不能一而再、再而三好像永遠都沒有辦法解決這個淹水的問題董事長又是工程專家那搞得好像台灣對這個寮寮的技術好像一點都不專業一點都不合格的樣子喔你總是要講清楚啦好不好謝謝"},{"start":12098.206,"end":12126.161,"text":"好謝謝何委員來機場公司報告好謝謝各位剛剛的指教首先就稅休跑道稅休的部分先做一個報告我們今年度在11月份完成了北跑道的稅休就是我們在3月份發生的狀況今年下半年稅休的是北跑道的部分那因為我上一次的一個經驗我們這一次的稅休已經重新訂過了SOP包括事前的對外公開說明"},{"start":12127.482,"end":12149.174,"text":"事中跟事後整個的過程的一個制度上的一個改變所以這個部分我們會把現在已經執行的方式以及未來的這個改進的方式會有一個書面完整的報告來向委員會來做報告這是第一點那第二點航廈裡面發生了幾次的漏水或者是設施的一些老舊的這個問題目前的處理狀況是這樣子"},{"start":12152.196,"end":12174.302,"text":"整個一二航廈的屋頂我們現在正在做全面的紙漏的工整正在進行當中預計完成的時間是在明年的年中換句話說這一次的稅修這一次的屋頂的整修跟過去是哪邊漏哪邊修補的狀況是不一樣的處理那第二個問題是有一些漏水的事件不是外面的雨水漏進來"},{"start":12175.442,"end":12203.601,"text":"市場域裏面有一些營業單位他有可能是有一些比如說他的洗滌用水等等他裏面的內部管線有堵住的狀況那這些我們都已經在特別的關注因為這些事情那出來啦對便所還是說這個這個廚房的這種狀況這個部分是我目前正在加強這個關注的地方那以到現在為止的狀況有發生這樣的一個滲水的狀況在處理的時間是非常的快的換句話說因為航廈老舊"},{"start":12205.662,"end":12206.703,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12229.69,"end":12257.544,"text":"不影響營運的狀況之下這幾個案子合併是不是我們建議凍結1.4億1.4億那簡略的部分1000萬那會提這個數字是因為我們跟各位委員報告的時候都已經做了說明跟承諾以上報告好那我來做一下處理好不好因為中午快到我們稍微齁如果有共識我們就稍微加速一點齁那針對"},{"start":12261.42,"end":12272.164,"text":"十三案到二十一案服務費用修理保養及保固費用我們就三減一千萬凍結十趴提出凍結沒關係啦"},{"start":12276.049,"end":12278.972,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12298.627,"end":12306.8,"text":"22到37案服務費用向下的專業服務費有蠻多委員提案的有要補充說明的嗎來林俊憲委員"},{"start":12311.459,"end":12314.121,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12334.69,"end":12337.434,"text":"第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12350.632,"end":12351.774,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12369.837,"end":12372.098,"text":"附屬單位預算附屬單位預算附屬單位預算附屬單位預算附屬單位預算附屬單位預算"},{"start":12399.71,"end":12408.157,"text":"10月25日,有男子爬上維修管道,摔落出進大廳後不治。在陶姬檢討報告上也說這是廠商的問題,本席提出凍結該預算20%。"},{"start":12418.908,"end":12420.97,"text":"陳素業委召委陳素業委召委陳素業委召委陳素業委召委"},{"start":12440.945,"end":12444.287,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":12468.681,"end":12479.737,"text":"銀運操作方面或者是燃料方面或是技術方面整個全面性要怎樣來達到那希望提出一個書面報告那本席在這邊提案凍結預算200萬元那提書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":12484.224,"end":12502.602,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12502.862,"end":12525.384,"text":"最早的13米還是一大截所以在這邊本席是提凍結預算10%希望桃園企業是不是可以嚴寧參照鄰近標竿機場可以供優化的地方然後您一定改進的措施跟實施的一個時程提出書面報告後時的動之謝謝"},{"start":12529.071,"end":12543.759,"text":"本人也有提兩案第一案也是針對於南跑道稅修大亂剛剛董事長有說明後面北跑道有改善個人意見看大家怎麼去調整沒有意見再來後面"},{"start":12545.82,"end":12570.316,"text":"也是機場排名的問題啊因為你專業服務費會有兩個問題他到底請的人到底夠不夠專業啊就那個鄉下到底夠不夠專業那些服務到底夠不夠好啊我覺得這個東西你們要稍微注意一下那我也看到你們專業服務費當然年年有變啊從100年到112年你的執行率啊這已經結束的年度啊執行率110年是73%"},{"start":12572.657,"end":12593.927,"text":"111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位111年度中�"},{"start":12597.399,"end":12616.57,"text":"先說明一下專業服務費用裡面包含的項目裡面有包括保全的費用大概有3億7還有包括工程管理跟資訊的服務另外還有我們的電腦整體的維修等等那這裡面剛剛有提到的這些相關的舒適的部分改進的部分簡單說明一下"},{"start":12617.33,"end":12622.616,"text":"基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算"},{"start":12632.727,"end":12659.184,"text":"當初會有這樣的排名落下來的這種狀況跟疫情期間我們的防疫比較其他國家嚴謹這個是有直接的關係不過這已經是過去式怎麼樣從66名往上提升是我們努力的目標目前為止我們有信心在下一次大概明年的3月到4月的時候新的排名出來應該會往前提升這個是你的報告第二個剛有提到軟體當機的部分等一下我請總經理來做一個補充說明"},{"start":12662.046,"end":12680.135,"text":"至於其他節能減碳的部分陳委員剛剛特別關心到怎麼樣去做更先進的做法機場裡面的航空用油我們已經跟中油公司在洽談在技術上因為中油公司已經取得了生產SAF的一個相關的許可"},{"start":12680.735,"end":12703.648,"text":"那SAF是航空中擁有裡面一個非常重要的項目可以大量減少航機的排碳這個部分機場公司已經啟動包括我們現在在進行的第三航廈跟第三跑道的基礎建設的部分已經預留這樣的一個空間那以上重點的一個說明那接下來是我們總經理做一個補充各位委員有你先講完你先講完"},{"start":12704.808,"end":12730.519,"text":"有關微軟當機剛剛林委員所提示的這個問題當時是因為有部分的航空公司是使用微軟他們的系統他是把資料上雲端所以這個系統一旦當機以後他們的一個報道話位的功能就不能使用所以當下就我們也協助跟這個航空公司來改成是人工報道那我想委員所提示的的確這個治安是非常重要"},{"start":12730.979,"end":12747.252,"text":"這一事件也讓公司這邊有所檢討因為我們又是關鍵基礎設施所以我們對於所謂的韌性是非常的重視我們對於未來這個資訊系統的一個應用對於是不是使用雲端這一點我們會來進一步的一個檢討以上"},{"start":12748.86,"end":12749.301,"text":"李坤哲委員"},{"start":12765.077,"end":12792.835,"text":"我剛才聽董事長有提到說明年3月希望這個排名能夠往前來邁進等一下請董事長講你認為你以什麼名次作為目標如果這個目標委員經過討論或者是針對你的目標認為說對你有期待的話我想這個預算大概大家就會比較不會去刪或是凍結"},{"start":12794.136,"end":12806.625,"text":"第二個是有關於我們機場漏水的問題這也不是這兩年才漏水了十幾年來第一航廈、第二航廈相關的漏水或是停電、跳電的問題是屢屢的發生當然"},{"start":12811.889,"end":12828.648,"text":"這個說航廈的這個老舊這只是部分的因素之一啦我相信這個總經理應該很清楚啦我們也不是說因為航廈老舊所以就會漏水就會跳電那其實當初啊因為他有不斷的擴建"},{"start":12829.349,"end":12843.69,"text":"相關的工程的重疊以及天花板在過去因為內部營業或相關的這種改變他的配管等等都有很多的問題所以在過去"},{"start":12844.471,"end":12857.405,"text":"它並不是因為這種機場老舊去做整修因為漏水或停頓的整修而是我們相關的工程一再的重疊上去改變所以造成有很多的這種結構性都有問題"},{"start":12860.187,"end":12878.779,"text":"我是建議真的要好好的去處理第三航廈的進度要如止如啟但是第二航廈的這種相關漏水停電問題你要去改過不然排名你花再多錢也不會有好的排名國際旅客重要的國門來家"},{"start":12882.181,"end":12894.739,"text":"大巨蛋看棒球下雨還要拿雨傘穿雨衣一樣真的都很難看啦而且停電的問題如果說因為我們相關的維修沒有做好的話造成停電漏水"},{"start":12898.034,"end":12925.472,"text":"國內外的旅客印象都會很不好啦我希望你們都能夠簡單的說明一下董事長明年排名也能提升到多少我會作為一個目標啦也不要太黏說要首要搶世界雄勇台灣冠軍也不要啦你能預定的目標是什麼今年多少今年66嘛66你的目標講一下目標來定65嘛我這邊在"},{"start":12927.83,"end":12949.811,"text":"我再補充一下機場排名它有一個總排名的一個指標66是上一次的排名那在去年我記得在預算在我們委員會今年預算委員會裡面在我們交通委員會裡面巡導的時候我曾經在那個時候是王部長的任內我們提到今年以50名為目標目前正在努力當中"},{"start":12952.654,"end":12979.045,"text":"五十當努力的目標現在正在努力當中不過我跟各位報告五十名另外還有一個細項各項的指標我們有五項是近在前十名的或許這個數字大家比較沒有去注意到包括我們的通關的速率等等場內的就是對旅客的特別的一個服務項目的排名有五項是近在前十名包括我們的美食美食街這些都是一個非常好的指標"},{"start":12979.765,"end":12980.446,"text":"陳雪真委員補充說明"},{"start":13006.792,"end":13029.116,"text":"董事長這個天花板掉下來這很嚴重的漏水什麼的你們派人去巡視一下嘛哪裡快掉下來了啊哪裡他掉下來的前奏一定會有水啊什麼的有沒有以前老鼠也會在上面玩啊什麼的你們應該可以查得出來啊找巡視人員我前幾天才曉得你們光廁所有400多間喔廁所有400多間還是200多間我嚇死人欸"},{"start":13036.581,"end":13061.935,"text":"總經理廁所多少間?400多間廁所我靠比我們立法院還多欸不是你這個一定要把它弄清楚啦好不好天花板這個掉下來還有你們排名的問題齁我每次看了我都感覺不好你看現在那個電視裡面差不多十家裡面有九家都民運黨講話的你也是民運黨之一啊"},{"start":13065.248,"end":13093.402,"text":"你去宣傳一下嘛是不是你不要弄得很像我們都是第十幾名怎麼很難看呢臺灣都是要明滅前茅排在前面啊好啦這個事情現在林國成委員我也代表他好了真的他不在我就不刪了好不好OK我就不刪了嘛好不好好謝謝各位委員的發言針對於第22案到37案因為總共有16個案子齁那"},{"start":13094.983,"end":13109.902,"text":"最主要是服務費用專業服務費因為每位委員針對的這個預算基礎不太一樣他上下的細項跟主題不太一樣所以在趴數整個呈出來這樣好不好我們先聚焦一下我們現在處理是針對於整筆的預算8億"},{"start":13112.805,"end":13135.528,"text":"一千九百零一萬餘元做一個整體的一個處理那這個部分因為我們看到三檢的部分大概有六到七位委員從五千萬到五百萬那這個部分這第一個那每位委員的提案已經講清楚了我們雖然是統一處理但是他其實關心的議題是什麼你們都知道"},{"start":13136.169,"end":13164.939,"text":"那我們是不是針對於服務費專業服務費啊就3減1000萬凍結10%提書面報告使得動機可以啦齁好好沒有問題我們就繼續往下接下來是38到39萬服務費用推展費兩位委員提案也要補充說明嗎好廖監獎委員"},{"start":13166.533,"end":13168.294,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13187.99,"end":13190.333,"text":"基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算基金分預算"},{"start":13207.952,"end":13209.093,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":13230.063,"end":13247.601,"text":"一般性的一些推廣費用如果說像民航局他可能在針對什麼無人機啊或一些安全等等的一些推廣這我也認同但是如果說你是針對機場本身去做一些美化的一些呃廣告預算的話我認為是完全沒有必要的以上"},{"start":13250.826,"end":13267.001,"text":"李坤哲委員廖委員當然他有權利針對這個刪減的金額針對我們處理預算的程序去做相關的處理不過剛才董事長有提到說目前的排名66"},{"start":13268.422,"end":13292.108,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":13292.228,"end":13310.399,"text":"大家都五人都非常的認真跟專業到時候陶基董事長要來這邊做報告說明我想他也會很難看這個成績立刻就可以知道了我們還是給陶基一點這種改善的空間以上陶基要說明嗎"},{"start":13315.265,"end":13331.002,"text":"我想有關剛剛委員的一個指教簡單補充就是我們這個推展的費用其實不是來宣傳我們自己公司本身是因為公司的相關活動有必須要或者我們有一些的訊息"},{"start":13331.542,"end":13334.345,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11屆第2會期交通委員會第11"},{"start":13354.181,"end":13355.282,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13373.889,"end":13389.263,"text":"來做宣導。所以基本上這個是我們最主要的一個費用的一個使用的目的。以上補充。好。針對3839萬做一下處理。服務費用、推展費用我們整體對於8130萬來做處理。就把兩位委員合併一下。3.1百萬凍結1000萬。素面報告使得動之。"},{"start":13399.561,"end":13424.572,"text":"因為你提一百啦,我也不好意思亂加啦好不好,不然感覺是召委一個人在審預算不好啦你沒有提案我們可以一百都不行嗎?來陳委員一百,我不是講這個啦齁我跟召委報告我禮拜一不在齁,我要三公務總局幾億的預算齁我拜託大家支持一下誰召委?陳志業召委,對"},{"start":13425.799,"end":13443.179,"text":"拜託一下,你們支持一下,我不是要刪他的預算,我說把他提政黨協商,拜託一下好不好,政黨協商,因為我那個馬祖大橋到現在為止,部長齁,一點承諾都沒有好不好。現在說不當局內,你怎麼預告?我知道啦,我要先預告啦。"},{"start":13444.724,"end":13455.516,"text":"我們大家交情那麼好沒關係啦齁提外的好不好因為部台也在嘛好不好我不是在內閣論總局喔那個先刪減齁刪減政黨協商好不好我會讓你過來好不好好謝謝"},{"start":13462.952,"end":13469.356,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13488.386,"end":13513.591,"text":"更好。那至於剛剛機場公司說的,雖然說尊重趙薇的才識,但不代表我認同機場公司的解釋。你們說你們有一些東西需要讓民眾知道,那所以說要編列媒體,編列通訪預算,意思是說,你們平常所發的訊息,你們意思是說,這些媒體,因為你沒有給他們預算,所以它,你們一些重大的訊息,它,媒體就不會公道嗎?好像也是有點陷媒體不義的這樣子一個感覺啦,以上。"},{"start":13515.097,"end":13532.372,"text":"好謝謝廖委員也是苦口婆心啊你們真的要聽進去那3839案就按照我剛剛處理的方式來處理沒有其他意見接下來我們處理40到51案總共有12案經費就營業成本145億6143萬餘元好各位提案委員我們要補充說明的好徐副委員"},{"start":13548.568,"end":13576.173,"text":"本席提了41到43案那我想我們大家都求好心切希望我們桃機公司這個尤其我們桃園國際機場是我們國家的門面但是屢屢發生機場漏水甚至跑到碎鏽這樣子一個狀況我相信這個對於這個國際的旅客來講實在是這個一個大的笑話所以41案的部分我們希望增加這個督促我們桃機公司"},{"start":13577.373,"end":13603.182,"text":"針對這個百大評比的部分能夠提出一個改善的計畫那42案的部分針對第三行下這個不但核定的時間到現在這個施工時間延至116年而且預算也增加了到1200多億但是屢屢傳出一個負面的一個新聞包含這個掃描機的認證瑕疵還有自駕電動巴士的這個完工的疑慮我想這部分我們也要求凍結500萬請"},{"start":13606.024,"end":13624.965,"text":"桃機公司能夠按時程施工排除相關的施工疑慮那針對43案的部分從111年開始陸續發生了多起的人為影響機場的安全事件那包含有工人突破安全防護破壞高壓電纜"},{"start":13626.787,"end":13654.529,"text":"那也有外籍的旅客這個破窗這個擅自破壞我們的圍籬還有甚至這個施工的吊臂作業車的吊臂造成一個擦撞的一些事故表示我們在一個淘氣公司一個防護機制上面出現很大的一個漏洞所以我們也要求要凍結營業成本的500萬那要求淘氣公司能夠加強一個所謂的一個整體的一個安全防護一個改善計畫並建立一個預警機制謝謝"},{"start":13656.771,"end":13672.444,"text":"陳秀月委員本席針對淘氣公司明年度其他營業成本服務費用向下暫處包裝代理及加工費科目編列5億8736萬餘元"},{"start":13676.727,"end":13700.082,"text":"科目預算。我們也肯定陶瓊公司在114年度的策略目標就是推動前瞻智慧機場從智慧化資訊服務及強化數位管理來增加旅客滿意度及優化機場營運的效能這我們是予以肯定的本期在委員會質詢的時候也有針對目前的"},{"start":13702.944,"end":13704.985,"text":"基金分預算案附屬單位預算基金分預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13732.452,"end":13738.061,"text":"好謝謝陳委員好那投資公司有要做說明嗎"},{"start":13744.298,"end":13766.796,"text":"我建議剛剛幾位委員的提示我們都會遵照努力去做處理改進當然有關凍結的部分是不是建議整個加起來凍結一千萬就是有幾位不同項目的委員特別提出來凍結的數字加起來整個從第40到51項一千萬凍結數"},{"start":13781.139,"end":13795.848,"text":"三組委員沒有意見,那我就來做一個處理了。我想這個營業成本,就我的想法就是之前我們希望他們增加收入,也預期會有更多的旅客會經過各個機場。"},{"start":13798.61,"end":13822.37,"text":"那既然希望他們多賺錢我覺得成本的部分我就覺得說是不是不要刪除用凍結的所以我們針對於第40到51案一頁成本的部分凍結10%提書面報告針對每位不同的那個內容提書面報告使得用之各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":13826.055,"end":13829.698,"text":"第11屆第2會期交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":13850.376,"end":13857.847,"text":"好第52案到56案是營業費用的部分總共是19億8581萬餘元有三位委員提了5萬"},{"start":13868.43,"end":13878.835,"text":"好大家都沒有補充說明好那這個機場公司有沒有針對委員三檢好凍結的部分這個前世主要用什麼的可以簡簡單單說一下嗎呃"},{"start":13891.036,"end":13920.716,"text":"我想各位委員這一項我們主要是因應我們在營業主要是營業的相關的一些的作業的費用包含像有我們的包含我們有一些土地的費用租金等等會也部分在這裡面還有責救的攤銷部分的設備檢修我想這個部分也是我們一般在業務面所需要的"},{"start":13920.939,"end":13920.96,"text":"預算。"},{"start":13924.858,"end":13950.195,"text":"好,針對於52到56案。好,何清晨委員。好,謝謝趙偉。那我提的是52案。那其實剛剛就針對這個世界棒球12強台灣冠軍回國的動線不佳引起很多的紛擾,那國人也不太諒解。那剛剛在民航局的預算裡面我有著動,那我剛剛有講過"},{"start":13951.716,"end":13977.896,"text":"這件事情雖然民航局還有我們部長有承諾要建立SOP但是呢不管是淘機也好民航局也好航警局也好或者是國安人員我都認為說都該負責任所以呢這個我在這個提案裡面是針對我們淘機的這個向下的預算科目著動一千萬而已所以呢希望淘機未來可以更積極而且有效率的而且更周全"},{"start":13978.957,"end":14007.029,"text":"更專業的規劃好不好謝謝好那針對52案到56案營業費用的部分我們就融合各位委員的意見那林國成委員刪除啊人不在我們就看去他要不要刪50萬不要來好我們這裡又不是縣議會也不是鄉民代表大會你們刪50萬"},{"start":14009.38,"end":14020.048,"text":"好那我們就遵照何清正委員的意見凍結一千萬提書面報告使得動之好有沒有其他意見沒有好接下來處理57到62案總共162億3700萬元"},{"start":14028.869,"end":14044.97,"text":"林俊憲委員、李昆澤委員本席提第六十二案六十二案是關於淘機的第三航廈現在最近這幾年都在積極趕工明年編額150億但本席要提的是為了讓第三航廈趕工"},{"start":14046.232,"end":14061.119,"text":"工程會協助機場公司引進了1300位移工以補足工程勞力的短缺淘機引進這1300位結果跑了519位4成進了10個跑掉4個同時累積人數變為全國營造業逃跑移工其中有兩成是淘機公司貢獻的"},{"start":14073.456,"end":14075.716,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部民用航空局單位預算"},{"start":14101.857,"end":14103.098,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14119.343,"end":14139.616,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14139.716,"end":14163.509,"text":"那其實我們對於相關的這種進度跟執行率我們覺得是大有問題就是說到113年度的8月為止有很多的計畫工程執行進度低於預計的執行進度當然是包括航廈的土建工程以及主體航廈基建的工程等等"},{"start":14165.25,"end":14181.362,"text":"到113年底的預算恐怕是很難去執行完畢我是有提案三減五億元凍結五億這個部分就是說希望能夠符合相關的"},{"start":14182.663,"end":14193.707,"text":"直行的進度當然如果說你們能夠拍胸脯保證就像董事長剛才說的明年3月我們的機場服務排名要衝進50名之內那我們給你機會"},{"start":14198.068,"end":14199.971,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14216.417,"end":14239.177,"text":"能不能在114年度你們相關的計畫能不能如期的執行有沒有那個能力啦你能夠完成你需要這些經費預算那就編給你們如果我說委員我們大概只能做到80%那我們就大概就給你80幾%的預算嘛請你們來做說明"},{"start":14244.343,"end":14263.49,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":14263.84,"end":14285.68,"text":"我們得到的資料是工程進度普遍落後雖然只有2到3%但是因為你的經費是蠻多的這2%、3%的意義可能就是十幾億、二十億那這個部分到底怎麼樣能夠具體改善跟上這是一個問題那第二個是61案最主要還是我們一直在追的BMS這個到底"},{"start":14288.002,"end":14300.068,"text":"到底這個航廈電車啊你們到底要怎麼去處理啊那現在已經NTP加270天了到底處理怎麼樣我們一直不知道所以我們希望把這個的部分這個5.71全數凍結"},{"start":14305.777,"end":14306.878,"text":"來,請淘汰公司說明"},{"start":14334.816,"end":14351.726,"text":"但是我們執行到11月已經支用了93億所以其實今年我們執行率一定百分之百而且近三個月的顧驗計價款的一個金額大概都已經達到12億這樣的一個左右的水準所以"},{"start":14352.768,"end":14382.048,"text":"我們目前檢討起來在明年的T3裡面我們162裡面我們是框149.5是屬於T3這部分我們估計是一定可以來執行完成的依目前我們執行的情形那至於像剛剛魯張偉所提到的幾個標都一直有面臨這個出工人數不足這個問題我們也持續在要求我們的廠商必須要即便整體的環境是這樣但是我們還是需要"},{"start":14382.708,"end":14407.693,"text":"直來努力那這個部分是我們目前來檢討期待在明年度的部分的執行是有把握的那第二個就是也補充一下趙偉有提到關心的PMS這個案子他目前廠商所提報出來的這些的相關文件也在我們設計顧問的審查那目前設計顧問審查的結果初步看還是有問題也"},{"start":14409.193,"end":14427.759,"text":"退請單位我們後續會依約來做處理以上補充那我這邊幫你處理部長部長你要表達你剛剛是跟我眨眼答案好我以為你要講沒有啦因為是不是這麼難處理就預算我來幫你處理一下好不好那我們現在嘗試來處理一下"},{"start":14429.83,"end":14431.172,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":14444.878,"end":14470.88,"text":"以目前的進度狀況剛剛總經理已經有說明那大家關心的進度的問題我們現在以現在抓的這個工項來講雖然出工人數有不足但是在工地的橫向的協調上面我們做了一些彌補所以目前的施工進度落後的現象我們是有信心可以趕回來的這是第一點那預算的滯用確實已經是超出原來的預估所以預算上面我們執行率可以達到百分之百這個也是沒有問題"},{"start":14471.741,"end":14497.577,"text":"那至於剛剛提到的這個PMS的部分我們預約處理的意思是我們會做一個快速的處理所以這個案子因為它會跟第三航廈直接有關我們不會讓它影響到第三航廈後續的營運所以這個案子的經費的需求也是會照原來的原編預算我們會加錢來幹辦那移工的部分移工的部分剛才委員特別提到的"},{"start":14498.477,"end":14516.883,"text":"現在的狀況已經大幅的改善我們今年半年以來的移工每個月有逃跑的移工大概都是個位數在全國來講應該算是很好的一個成績那剛才提到的這些數字是過去發生的現象因為大量的移工進到淘機那這個從源頭確實就開始發生的問題"},{"start":14520.284,"end":14542.402,"text":"從原來的國家要過來的移工的國家的仲介跟我們這邊的仲介整個系統上有問題後來經過公共工程委員會吳哲展委員主任委員當時的這個協助之下包括勞動部等等我們把這個系統上的一個處理從源頭到現場的管理都做了改善所以以現況來講我們對移工的問題已經不再是過去那種現象以上簡單補充"},{"start":14545.713,"end":14560.121,"text":"報告召委大概就像我們剛才向召委所說明的如果說他的這種預計的執行率跟實際的執行率都能夠符合那我就不會刪他們的預算"},{"start":14561.702,"end":14585.877,"text":"我們都希望說這機場的工程趕快完成,如子如期的完成我們都是很實際的幫你們算你們預計的執行率跟實際的執行率到底能不能完成今天楊董事長在這邊是信心十足明年3月公服務效率被全世界排名50名之內了"},{"start":14586.758,"end":14606.13,"text":"一半六十二月他都能夠執行完畢了明年很快就到了來我請召委來做採視了好那林國臣委員你提三五頁要不要表達一下意見還是沒有差你是第58案對"},{"start":14622.836,"end":14645.496,"text":"好了,我代表林國雄講話好了,不要算了不是啦,這個我們還是以鼓勵作用啦,因為我在看你們現在編的這個前述的預算說實在的老大動一下啦好不好崑澤也是要刪啊崑澤你刪多少他沒有要刪"},{"start":14646.144,"end":14672.325,"text":"沒有 就是剛才我有請他們做說明 林委員就是說 他們的 我是反對他們的這個執行度沒有辦法達成預期的目標啦當時軍團剛才是有可能斷言看破繭說執行度 實際的執行度跟預計的執行度能達成一定的目標如果他能達成 我們都希望這個港電金做得好啦如子如期的完成啦"},{"start":14674.192,"end":14702.599,"text":"那不然就先動一下吧好不好動一下再提好不好把它動一下啦動一下你們怎麼做要報告嘛我來融合一下融合一下這個我贊成您委員的這個說法啦報告詹委就是你們要怎麼去符合相關的執行的進度你們相關的做法必須更明確的說出來這個我是贊成您委員的這樣的說法"},{"start":14705.373,"end":14729.485,"text":"不是 這個動的也不是你們不能用啊是你們要用什麼 要報告我講 對不對我本來是前三的啦因為董事長我不瞞你說你個人我是尊重的但是有時候你們講話你不是講說那個機場那個以後不會再發生可能你們還是油關車還是照樣在發生事故啊所以有很多事情我也知道你們現在機場的業務是很繁雜"},{"start":14732.466,"end":14740.737,"text":"但是你最起碼的話這是第三行下第三行下的問題所以你先動了以後你要提報告再來那個啊"},{"start":14748.004,"end":14749.465,"text":"第57到第62案固定資產建設改良擴充計劃專案計劃總金額162億3700萬元3減5千萬凍結5%"},{"start":14776.363,"end":14782.76,"text":"差不多啦 那個尾數都沒有弄到啦齁好不好好了 總統主席啦凍結5% 因為你金額比較大 我只幫你凍5%啦 好不好"},{"start":14785.762,"end":14788.943,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14817.416,"end":14818.959,"text":"第63到67案固定資產建設改良擴充計劃一般建設及設備計劃"},{"start":14829.778,"end":14858.296,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─民航事業基金分預算為何他們今年的西側管道管線新建工程桃園機場聯外道路和道路排水整建工程南側共同管道基建工程"},{"start":14859.246,"end":14872.196,"text":"到今年的施行率都只有個位數,只有差不多5%本期建立凍結五分之一,請進來工作提報告,如何提升以及為甚麼有些工程進度那麼慢提出檢討報告才能通知。謝謝"},{"start":14877.754,"end":14895.741,"text":"最主要我是63案那也請他們說明其實我們都是希望你們的相關的執行率跟預計的進度都能夠符合所以才會提出相關的三點預算"},{"start":14897.182,"end":14923.806,"text":"那你們能不能在這個我看你們到八月啊還有很多項目很多計畫執行率都偏低哦那113年底的預算有沒有辦法執行完畢啊第二個就是說你們的這個提案三減一億這個有沒有問題你們明確的說明好機場公司說明一下主要在做什麼然後執行率可以跟上嗎"},{"start":14924.946,"end":14926.508,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":14939.926,"end":14966.349,"text":"另外就是剛剛包含林委員跟李委員所指教的我們有幾個案子的一個執行的確是受到一些因素的影響包含發包不順包含有一些是執行碰到介面所以部分的個案進度會比較慢執行率比較差這個是有的不過我們都在綜合來檢討整體的執行率是可以達到九成以上報告"},{"start":14968.479,"end":14980.796,"text":"好還有委員要補充說明嗎我們直接來處理一下好不好看看大家有沒有意見了齁針對63到67案固定資產建設改良擴充計劃一般建築及設備計劃3減1000萬好不好"},{"start":14987.346,"end":14988.827,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":15005.469,"end":15021.903,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":15033.547,"end":15060.72,"text":"好 我們現在處理決議案68案 機場公司 中照辦理好 照案通過68案 照案通過69案 建議專案改書面報告 文字修正書面報告 這個若 若華委員 OK嗎那取三個月內提供 可以嗎三個月內提供 三個月內提供 OK 好中照辦理好 議事委員注意住 那個沒有辦法修改的給我們喔"},{"start":15062.844,"end":15087.916,"text":"好是69案修正文字通過70案建議有一些文字要修正在最後最後那倒數第二行原要求淘氣公司三個月內110年每這幾個字刪除三個月內向立法院交通委員會提出素面進度報告以上"},{"start":15089.079,"end":15090.14,"text":"七十一案建議文字修正專案改書面改書面有沒有問題"},{"start":15114.144,"end":15141.332,"text":"不同意好那就是好專案啦齁你現在對啦也是要一兩個專案啦齁那這樣好不好第71案按照照案通過遵照辦理72案遵照辦理照案通過73案遵照辦理73案照案通過74案遵照辦理74案照案通過75案建議專案改書面報告"},{"start":15146.059,"end":15148.488,"text":"第75案 修正文字後通過"},{"start":15149.761,"end":15173.463,"text":"七十六案 遵照辦理七十六案 照案通過七十七案 遵照辦理七十七案 照案通過七十八案 遵照辦理七十八案 照案通過七十九案 遵照辦理七十九案 照案通過八十案建議文字修正建議刪除經交通委員會統一後使得動之這幾個文字修正"},{"start":15174.178,"end":15178.1,"text":"八十案修正文字後通過八十一案遵照辦理"},{"start":15195.056,"end":15215.692,"text":"81案照案通過82案遵照辦理82案照案通過83案遵照辦理83案照案通過接下來84案遵照辦理好84案照案通過85案建議文資修正專案改書面報告啊?"},{"start":15224.94,"end":15225.12,"text":"稍等一下齁"},{"start":15267.145,"end":15294.835,"text":"好,謝謝各位委員辛苦了,各位觀演員辛苦了。好,目前協商完成,作以下宣告。第一,今日協商結論免予宣讀,授權議事人員整理,作為決議列入記錄。第二,委員要求提供書面報告及相關資料,請交通部及相關單位競訴以書面答覆。第三,如有委員對於提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報。"},{"start":15299.812,"end":15323.042,"text":"針對本日的會議做以下的決議一、本日預算審查結果照列或照協商結論通過第二、本日通過的決議文字授權主席及議事人員調整第三、114年度民航局單位預算民航事業作業基金非營業預算及桃園國際"},{"start":15324.585,"end":15330.173,"text":"桃園國際機場公司營業預算等三項預算案審查完畢"},{"start":15358.362,"end":15359.726,"text":"辛苦辛苦處理一下就好"}]}},{"id":"16396","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16396","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc19061065897f096c838da8792fb05a3d78081dad70f87c466fa0d294722c5cdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支部分。\n四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪被害人保護協會114年度預算書案。\n五、併案審查\n（一）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答；預算提案於12月24日中午12時截止收件】\n【12月18日及19日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-19T08:31:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T12:46:00+08:00","duration":15270,"影片長度":"04:14:30","委員發言時間":"08:31:30 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"外遇間的一個定位剛陳儒部長所講到的就是連結受刑人來復歸社會的一個中間處遇那並非是一種所謂的一個特權的一個階級那既然本條例已經在消極資格上將所犯之罪來做一個明定而且也授權法務部另有遴選的一個標準"},{"start":2780.763,"end":2801.841,"text":"那積極資格的部分那就有討論的一個餘地所以本席跟王思堅委員這個一個共同提案裡面外議監條例第4條跟第21條條文的一個修正草案把原先的積極資格去修正為受有期徒刑而且已經執行超過6個月那這本次的一個修法"},{"start":2802.481,"end":2815.476,"text":"我們要特別強調並沒有去調整消息的一個資格並且繼續賦予法務部擁有最後臨選的一個決定權而在法務部已有最後臨選辦法的一個前提之下外遇間的受刑人的臨選條件"},{"start":2817.478,"end":2843.384,"text":"部分,我們這次就提出來做一個討論,以利於受信人在服刑期間得以逐步適應社會的生活,出獄以後也可以盡快去融入社會,讓外遇間真正去發揮它的一個功能。這個是本期來做這樣的一個提案的說明。等一下我也會針對整個受信人累進處獄的部分,對於法務部我們來做一個就教。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":2848.959,"end":2873.395,"text":"我們補充介紹陳俊宇委員我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請發言登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2886.265,"end":2908.523,"text":"謝謝主席,事事麻煩,有請我們的法務部正部長、最高檢察署刑檢中長、廉政署馮署長、台北地檢署檢察長、新北地檢署檢察長。"},{"start":2920.337,"end":2934.583,"text":"委員長各位早,時間的關係不一一問候,時間緊迫直接切入有關於就業安定基金被濫用的事情我在未完委員會直接點出來"},{"start":2935.905,"end":2954.741,"text":"用公帑買的東西跑去送私人的親友甚至在招標的過程當中跟廠商有圖利綁標的問題這件事情先北地檢署動作非常的快我先肯定下一個問題不是只有這100多萬買禮品有問題現在現在"},{"start":2964.155,"end":2988.8,"text":"審計部大概簡單的看了一下就有五千多萬遭到濫用就這個部分檢方啟動偵辦了嗎?這部分台北地檢署已經立案偵辦了台北地檢署已經立案偵辦了有列被告嗎?許明春是不是被告?這個有告發有告發所以許明春是算被告陳菊是被告嗎?"},{"start":2992.065,"end":3015.819,"text":"目前不是告發的對象只有許明春嗎?許明春這個案子的辦案有沒有上線?這個我想我尊重檢察官的偵辦檢察官是有證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡好很好大家都聽到拭目以待喔新北地檢署辦謝宜龍大家認為民進黨政府的斷點辦得很快喔"},{"start":3016.843,"end":3037.486,"text":"往上辦的時候辦的速度辦的角度辦的深度就是社會大眾大家在關注的重點不要到時候我們自己檢方辦出來的結果比我們審計部做的還糟糕是不是會這樣我不知道不預設立場我們接下來繼續往下看"},{"start":3038.547,"end":3054.312,"text":"八八黑金洗錢集團這個事情我從我還在民間社會的時候我從2022年啊就持續的追蹤我追蹤一路下來啊我必須要老實講啊我們的政府說打詐要打洗錢"},{"start":3056.387,"end":3083.162,"text":"辦這些案子辦得哩哩啦啦我為什麼這樣講我先從小明郭澤民開始講當初去88會館的檢察官把他放走好不容易抓回來追究檢察官的責任我從2023年一路問新北地檢署什麼時候要給行政調查報告結果我拿到的行政調查報告今年8月一切合法沒有為師"},{"start":3084.483,"end":3108.558,"text":"所以現在法務部的立場是針對這個先去88會館接受招待然後又把小明、郭澤民放掉的檢察官連社會上面普遍印象不佳的監察院都彈劾了但是你們的行政調查報告是一切合法沒有違私對於新北地檢所交出來這樣子的行政調查報告請問法務部背書嗎?"},{"start":3114.107,"end":3135.841,"text":"這部分有關於去88會館的這些的檢察官我想那個請針對問題回答我沒有那麼多時間不好意思新北地檢調的行政調查報告法務部是不是背書這個問題非常的簡單明瞭這個我們就尊重那個新北的一個尊重新北地檢署來請新北地檢署檢察長"},{"start":3139.74,"end":3163.38,"text":"這樣的行政調查報告等於是在幫這位檢察官背書認為監察院的彈劾沒有道理是這樣嗎?這部分的報告我們已經寫在報告上我們認為說檢察官當時在那個我了解啊你們的報告我全部都拜讀了就是回給我的公文嘛但我現在的問題是什麼從2023年的3月到2024年的8月"},{"start":3167.292,"end":3179.322,"text":"連監察院都彈劾了你們的行政調查報告還是一切合法沒有違私啊讓人看了瞠目結舌啊所以以新北地檢署的立場來講監察院的彈劾不當是這樣嗎?在接下來懲戒法庭的審理過程當中新北地檢會力挺這位檢察官是嗎?"},{"start":3191.385,"end":3219.255,"text":"目前沒有通知我們你去看沒關係啊你們實際上面的作為怎麼面對自家人的一個檢察官跑去88會館後來把他放了你們的行政調查報告是一切合法沒有違適啊那個標準啊比監察院還要低啊讓人瞠目結舌啊有問題的還不是小明欸這一些有關係的人都很厲害啊屠城文一樣"},{"start":3221.542,"end":3245.805,"text":"偵辦屠城文地下會對洗錢案檢警跑到瑞森銀樓的私人招待所這個都是客觀確認的事實啊已經是洗錢犯的犯罪嫌疑人還有檢警跑去瑞森銀樓的地下私人招待所如出一側模式一模一樣屠城文跑了來請問一下現在屠城文到外沒有"},{"start":3247.981,"end":3275.208,"text":"有人知道嗎?有人關心嗎?有人在意嗎?在同期中同期多久了?怎麼跑的?我上次問的時候說要偵辦,偵辦的進度如何?查無不法,謝謝指教這不是第一次問啦我上次問的時候說要分案偵辦嘛怎麼跑的?"},{"start":3277.192,"end":3303.748,"text":"電話局局長請上來不好意思啊部長您的問題還沒有回答他的問題是下一個現在申辦的進度如何是哪一個地檢署在辦來請台北地檢署申辦的進度如何因為他目前通緝中啊讓我們有當然在通緝中嘛那要不然你們在申辦什麼"},{"start":3305.011,"end":3324.764,"text":"我上次問的時候就是問人怎麼跑的嘛這麼厲害都招待檢警事前都收到封都有辦法先跑屠城文、郭澤民的模式不是一模一樣嗎這些詐欺洗錢的有設招待所的都知道可以先跑大家都這麼厲害"},{"start":3326.781,"end":3355.023,"text":"上次問你們說要分案偵辦偵辦的進度如何?包括委員這個通緝就是分案這個通緝就是辦案另外我們有針對這個案子有發動這個具體搜索另外也有5個被告也都被生壓獲准所以這個案子我們有繼續在偵辦當中就泄密的部分呢我們也會查查的進度呢我們要根據這個檢察官收證的情況所以到目前為止沒有進展"},{"start":3356.556,"end":3381.959,"text":"是吧目前為止我們仍然在努力當中來請調查局局長這個人有在調查局的通緝查報的專開上嗎重大的犯罪調查局有一個通緝犯查緝通報的系統嗎照片都要出來嗎他有嗎這個部分我要"},{"start":3383.59,"end":3402.495,"text":"來調查局的同仁協助一下你確認以後再上來回答這個問題接下來更扯第三個林秉文一樣是88會館我們鄭文燦的麻吉林秉文一樣88會館洗錢現在人到哪裡去了部長有沒有掌握"},{"start":3404.239,"end":3428.159,"text":"您比我們現在,因為這個已經起訴了,這是法院在審理中這個...你說得非常的好啊,所以臺北地院就不想背鍋啊趕快發新聞稿啊,說你們一開始的時候就沒有限制出境啊人跑的臺北地院的新聞稿啊,在暗指什麼?在暗指是檢察官的責任啊那我現在就具體問一個事情嘛"},{"start":3429.342,"end":3440.017,"text":"當初在台北地院審理的過程當中林秉文因倒庭而沒有倒庭立體的檢察官在睡覺嗎?有任何積極的作為嗎?"},{"start":3441.711,"end":3462.379,"text":"這個是審理中的被告要不要限制出境出海或者是整個羈押或交保那個我想這個要尊重法院新北沒有錯啦新北地院這個是法院的職權法院的職權嘛但檢察官發現該到的人我們沒有申請權然後跟委員報告我們在審理中的被告我們並沒有申請權請你把問題聽完好嗎"},{"start":3465.868,"end":3470.172,"text":"在審判程序當中立庭的檢察官發現人不見了不用促請法院為職權的發動嗎?具體的回答什麼時候發現他不見什麼時候促請法院為職權的處理"},{"start":3492.031,"end":3516.281,"text":"訴請,我們訴請我們沒有這個,我們當然可以訴請,但是在法律上我們並沒有申請,所以我們沒有違背職務的一個問題,我們沒有失職。所以有訴請嗎?請針對問題回答就好了。請依法處理,這就叫處理,因為這個法官可以依照刑事訴法有關的相關法草的機制來做一個處理,這是法院的職權,那我們檢官必須要遵守法律。"},{"start":3517.506,"end":3544.465,"text":"那個主席啊是不是可以跟部長溝通一下等我問題問完請他回答問題可以嗎是不是可以主席請部長回答問題就針對問題回答不要插嘴可以嗎因為這樣子的話社會大眾關心的根本就不知道我問什麼他答什麼嗎"},{"start":3546.877,"end":3575.603,"text":"是不是可以請主席處理?麻煩部長,請針對問題回答。好,謝謝主席。部長,我來請教一次。立庭的檢察官發現該到庭的人沒有到庭了,什麼時候促請院方為職權的發動?有做這件事嗎?檢察官有跟法院表示說請依法處理。什麼時候跟法院做這樣的表示?"},{"start":3576.85,"end":3602.866,"text":"當庭就這樣處理了?當庭就這樣表達?當庭這樣處理喔?對,這樣表達是在哪一個庭裡面?幾月幾號的庭?這個是在12月12月5號和議庭和議庭的時候就12月5號的時候才請法院處請法院依照職權處理嗎?我為什麼拿這件事情出來問?"},{"start":3604.412,"end":3623.746,"text":"社會大眾很憤怒啊大家看不下去啊不是只有一樁啊先是小民啊再來是瑞生銀樓的啊再來是林秉文啊大家關係好的消息都很靈通啊人就跑啦結果今天部長您是這種態度"},{"start":3625.799,"end":3643.313,"text":"防腐好像檢察官可以做的全部都做了他跑檢方也沒辦法也很無奈是這樣嗎這個是我們現在檢方辦案的態度嗎來請教部長人抓的回來嗎"},{"start":3645.282,"end":3657.158,"text":"十二月二十六號開庭再來拘提笑死人啦人現在就已經在國外了現在是期待什麼他自己坐飛機回來開庭讓你們拘提喔太可笑啦"},{"start":3658.976,"end":3688.257,"text":"上一次我請教我們的檢察總長所基層的檢察官看不下去請法務部開課要學習怎麼被媒體經營然後總長說你不是很清楚沒有關係從上次質詢完到現在我相信總長有去了解基層的檢察官點名北檢的檢察長高檢的檢察長檢察總長是歷史罪人我再強調一次這不是我說的這是基層的檢察官看不下去"},{"start":3689.946,"end":3696.349,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":3720.137,"end":3739.777,"text":"然後呢10月25號跟我說分案處理了依照偵查不公開檢討小組會議依法查明真相來請總長您10月25號發函到現在目前查處的狀況如何跟委員報告喔委員提到的問題喔"},{"start":3742.539,"end":3756.264,"text":"這個偵查不公開的問題是個很重要是2017年施改國事會議的決議那剛剛委員那天指導之後我們有交到台高檢署他們現在正在調查中因為現在正在偵查中他們無法調卷但是"},{"start":3757.742,"end":3779.117,"text":"那天回來之後我們有請我們檢察官這個研究之後我們有研究一個對策就是這個建議事項其中有一點我們建議這個參考美國的法制定定、偵查、保密令把證人、證人還有一些相關的人都列入這個規範的範圍而且提高法律的慰藉提高刑案"},{"start":3779.918,"end":3783.883,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3797.81,"end":3826.209,"text":"你覺得啊,你說要給證人,基本上像是美國的Gaggo Oat,這個我知道,但問題是,這個跟我所檢舉的案子有什麼關係?所以你們現在是在懷疑說這個秘密證人自己去外面講嗎?這個當然是有關係啦,因為這個偵查不公開已經是歷史上一個問題,事實上在立法上,請你針對問題回答。所以IMB的案子你們認為是這個秘密證人自己跑去跟靜州刊講嗎?是嗎?"},{"start":3828.71,"end":3833.992,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":3857.179,"end":3864.353,"text":"有這麼蠢的事喔!跟委員報告齁這個是週刊他是有跟那個"},{"start":3865.785,"end":3873.03,"text":"關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":3893.425,"end":3898.567,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":3917.475,"end":3940.046,"text":"全部都沒有檢方的人15個人全部都警察來對我們斯坦國事會議做了這麼重要的結論了以後最後查處出來的結果全部都警察檢方的一個都沒有對這樣查處的結果部長你滿不滿意我相信我們檢察官在偵辦建築會嚴守偵查不公開的一個規定"},{"start":3943.928,"end":3961.473,"text":"檢察官當然嚴格遵守偵查不公開的規定那等於是2017年的時候施改國是會議做的這個決議全部都是廢話因為大家都遵守嘛2017年的時候遵守2024年也遵守嘛過去這7年查出來最後怎麼樣"},{"start":3963.687,"end":3986.596,"text":"過去這七年查出來一個檢方的都沒有全部都警察我們不能說就是來不好意思主席最後一個問題今天法務部的預算我看了預算了以後來來來法務部112年、113年、114年每一年都有編一般事務費辦理部外聯繫、考察及新聞發布大概都編了大概150萬這個錢拿來幹嘛的"},{"start":3992.88,"end":4017.172,"text":"這個錢拿來幹嘛的這個錢編在你的預算書裡拿來幹嘛的你應該很清楚啊這個是屬於這個是就是跟記者就是以來記者來參訪來了解我們法務部的各項業務及所屬間的推動的情形去辦記者的參訪嘛法務部所屬各項推動的狀況嘛來我們看一下實際實踐的結果2023年"},{"start":4021.834,"end":4022.895,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":4056.406,"end":4078.831,"text":"這個...你看裡面的行程嘛!這個...這個不是...這個委員...這個是我要跟委員說明齁這個我們是利用各種的場合來做一個宣導大概不是說只有宣導這個就是跟做簡報這個行程本來就是要做簡報嘛!但你到機關去的時候也就是要直接實地去瞭解機關的一個業務推動然後開會的時候要在高鐵站的會議室嘛!"},{"start":4079.651,"end":4079.671,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":4099.879,"end":4113.895,"text":"適合還是不適合?這個我們這個預算本來就是要做本來就是要做這個事的嘛!我不是要做這個事齁,這個我要作為一個澄清齁這個我們就是要做了解優惠的情形請你針對問題回答錢這樣子花適合不適合?錢這樣子花適合不適合?"},{"start":4119.037,"end":4138.139,"text":"請部長你就直接回答我們的委員的問題啊到底適合不適合我們是落實執行我們這個預算的一個執行這個是跟媒體落實預算的執行喔那等於是當初過這個預算的委員不對啊而且委員這個做簡報做那個報告不是只有在高鐵站"},{"start":4139.72,"end":4141.481,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":4167.14,"end":4194.537,"text":"這個到機關做簡報這個其他的我們就其他的一些的一個一個一個整個一個除了實地上的參訪當然我會安排其他的參觀行程沒有關係啊因為我行程全部都掉出來了嘛我行程都掉出來了嘛是不是適合這樣做全體的納稅人心裡會有一把尺嘛我今天只是要布展一個態度你也可以說適合啊這個行程很充實啊一樣啊"},{"start":4196.069,"end":4206.758,"text":"二、審查2024年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":4224.946,"end":4253.488,"text":"晚上喝成這樣喔這都是現場的照片啊我為什麼挑出來講很多檢察官在問嘛要教一教開課教大家怎麼經營媒體關係啊我秀給大家看要怎麼經營啊就這樣子經營嘛經營得很好啊這個預算我一定提案三法務部要捍衛我也OK"},{"start":4254.522,"end":4267.596,"text":"你要去找這些記者來圍剿我,我也沒有關係,但我的信念是什麼?納稅人的錢不可以這樣花!來,出國,來來來,接下來請馮誠署長。參加國民國際透明組織這場考察花了多少錢?"},{"start":4277.546,"end":4289.985,"text":"我們的這個預算的部分用的不多我們是使用那個外交部有給我們大概300萬的錢國防部有給我們50萬的錢那主要是負責全部都是國家的錢嘛對但是那個所以總共花了多少錢"},{"start":4291.327,"end":4296.589,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":4319.186,"end":4344.821,"text":"跟委員報告一下齁其實我們在國際中連政交朋友這件事情我們其實是蠻用心的是是是這個我了解所以我才具體的請教完你這個考察完最重要的啟示是什麼你有寫在出國報告你你忘了嗎你忘了你在裡面寫什麼嗎我很用心欸把你們去的我全部都拜讀完欸所以我才請教你嘛你最重要的啟示是什麼"},{"start":4346.257,"end":4374.743,"text":"我跟委員說齁,其實我們這一次去齁,呃,大概像我們每次出國的時候齁,我們都是希望在跟國際間齁,在那反貪腐這件事。是!對,就是說這樣。所以你最重要的啟示是什麼?你講兩點出來就好啦!第一就是反貪腐的一個經驗上的交流嘛。然後第二就是增加我們國際間的一個能見度。只有這樣齁?我認為是這樣是最重要的。啊你還記不記得你這個出國報告寫了什麼?你還記得嗎?這出國報告是你寫的嗎?"},{"start":4375.694,"end":4397.58,"text":"出國報告不是我寫的不是你寫的啊你在出國報告表示了什麼你記不記得出國報告裡面的內容蠻多的啊是是是是所以我沒有問你嘛我沒有要你背行程給我聽嘛我只說你最後去參訪的這個你得到的啟示是什麼嗎這個有這麼困難嗎那我跟你講啦我覺得我們來我給你看啊"},{"start":4398.789,"end":4428.046,"text":"去完了以後說什麼?馮署長關於立陶宛施行接避者保護法立陶宛的接避者保護法是只有公部門還是公司部門都受規範?法務委員齁,跟您先再澄清一下我並不是出去玩的在這一次沒關係,你出去進行非常重要的考察那結果你的結論立陶宛的吹哨者保護法是只有公部門還是公司部門都有?跟委員報告立陶宛的這個接避者保護法是公私並行的"},{"start":4428.888,"end":4456.729,"text":"你想起來了嗎?你想起來你在這個報告表示什麼了嗎?不是想起來我不知道委員要問這一個部分啦那因為報告的東西蠻多的嘛來參加亞太經濟合作組織APEC第39次反貪腐極透明化工作會議去的是沈鳳梁副署長嗎?沈副署長有來嗎?他沒有來沒有來嗎?OK好沒關係我下次有機會的時候再請教不好意思喔再用一點時間謝謝"},{"start":4460.781,"end":4486.02,"text":"現在請陳俊宇委員好,謝謝主席那我們今天各位列席的首長還有我們媒體先進各位同仁大家早,主席我們先請鄭部長好,有請鄭部長"},{"start":4493.374,"end":4513.454,"text":"我們今天所要審查的不單是法務部及所屬單位的預算收支還有兩個基金和三個財團法人的預算還有明年度工作規劃也一併都進行討論其中包括有一些跨年期還有跨部位的新計畫也要在明年度開始來進行"},{"start":4514.555,"end":4534.096,"text":"其中我想先就打擊毒品的工作概況以及未來的政策規劃來就教我們部長行政院自106年開始我們推動新世代的反毒策略行動綱領4年投入了100億到了反毒策略第二期從110年到113年更投入了150億的總經費"},{"start":4536.759,"end":4556.946,"text":"行政院上個月核定的反讀策略第三期預計在未來四年也要再投入150億那從106年實施第一期、110年實施第二期到今年度收尾的這個階段我想就教部長我們在反讀策略所主責的這個任務是否有達到預期的一個計畫所要達到的一個目標"},{"start":4557.907,"end":4559.168,"text":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4574.867,"end":4576.309,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":4595.089,"end":4623.435,"text":"降低的趨勢。再來就是需求的降低也就是說我們怕新收的、新增加的吸毒人口形象這樣的趨勢像今年一到十月查獲到也比去年同期減少了1.3%我想這部分是相當不錯另外還有減少毒品的危害主要是因為吸毒會發生死亡的一些現象所以譬如說施用PMA的致死人數"},{"start":4624.255,"end":4628.139,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4641.633,"end":4658.411,"text":"那法務部還有所屬機關在114年度對於第三期反讀策略所編列的預算大約是6.6億左右那比第二期的113年還增加1000多萬那我想請教部長這預算提升是出於工作的這個項目增加還是有其他的原因?"},{"start":4660.235,"end":4678.88,"text":"我想這個是我們在做第三期,它是與時的一個拒禁。與時拒禁,那我想我們會達到整個一個,我們現在會用的增加,我們事實上就是阻斷供需。阻斷供需減少這些的毒害。那另外我們也,現在那個毒品吸入人口,我們也希望它復歸社會。"},{"start":4680.2,"end":4681.522,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":4694.957,"end":4722.404,"text":"那計畫當中所涉及的這個工作涵蓋多種面向但我想就其中一個主要的議題就是對於新興的毒品的迅速變化我們在新的這個反毒策略中要如何來及時因應尤其現在這個新興毒品的樣態還有來源都非常的多元讓民眾和家長都非常的擔心那我們法務部如何來避免這些新興的毒品流入市場也避免它進入這個校園"},{"start":4724.826,"end":4734.86,"text":"這個就是因為毒品怕流入校園所以我們要對內壓制要有那個安具企圖專案跟校園侵存的一個專案我們希望這些毒品能夠透過查記來做一個對內在境內的壓制"},{"start":4739.046,"end":4739.507,"text":"收支部分關於法務部長"},{"start":4759.778,"end":4788.38,"text":"也做一個列管物資跨國比較及毒品先驅營業預警平台及時的預警那對毒品是不是我們再升級再做一個管制列為毒品那這部分我們也會再做隨時的一個檢討好那我們除了這個阻絕毒品之外借飲治療還有防止個案的再犯也是工作的這個計畫之一我們現有編列這個關乎毒品助理員的這個員額是否充足"},{"start":4788.92,"end":4805.787,"text":"接下來是否還需要再增加人力?現在我們是大力來推動健療治療希望能夠復歸社會這些關乎人力這部分我們目前是有在做一個增加應該是64人我們想能夠越多越好"},{"start":4806.747,"end":4821.221,"text":"人力足夠嗎目前目前當然我們不能說足夠啦齁我們就是盡量去把這個人力因為的確要做些因為這些人力最主要是戒嚴治療這部分的一個專責的一個人力齁那我們希望這些能力能夠再做一個擴充"},{"start":4822.202,"end":4849.856,"text":"好,那我們也期待在第三期的這個新世代反毒策略能夠有更好的這個效果來打擊毒品的危害那比前面兩期的計畫執行之後更加能夠接近無毒家園還有無毒校園的一個目標那另外我想和部長討論就是這個預證這個面對的問題以及未來的政策那近年來台灣這個監所、超收和借戶比過高的問題一直都被檢討"},{"start":4853.159,"end":4867.231,"text":"除了目前規劃中114年度彰化的看守所遷建計畫外,對於嚴重操作中部以北的監所,應該也有希望透過硬體設備的提升改善來紓緩擁擠的狀況。接下來是否還有其他研議中要擴建或是遷建的計畫要來推動?"},{"start":4875.938,"end":4875.978,"text":"主席"},{"start":4891.07,"end":4915.445,"text":"報告委員除了我們巴德外醫監的擴建跟帳號看守所的這個簽件之外我們有增加就是臺北看守所及臺北尼子看守所在司法延期的一些簽件這些都會將來在北部地區或是中部地區可以紓解我們超收的人患以上"},{"start":4916.826,"end":4935.403,"text":"張化的看守所明年底可以完工使用嗎?報告委員,我們預定是明年底,當然這些進度有稍微落後一點點,但是落後不多,我們都有督導張化看守所來加緊,來督導,保持他的效力。"},{"start":4937.385,"end":4952.358,"text":"另外我也想關心我們監所基層同仁的工作權益。矯正署類似於移民署,不但具有較高的危險性、複雜性,也需要時刻來面臨龐大的工作壓力。"},{"start":4953.518,"end":4982.088,"text":"包括有介護緊急外衣還有介護住院甚至是深夜進行移監等日常的業務。在上會期我曾經到宜蘭監獄考察當時在署長報告的過程裡面也聽到我們基層同仁的心聲期待能夠向內政部所屬工作人員的深夜危老津貼以及調整危險加急"},{"start":4982.768,"end":5012.157,"text":"那後來也在這個審查的過程當中得知法務部有責成我們矯正署準備相關的文件和說明對於提高待遇的這個依據以及每年所需的這個相關預算能夠先進行估算的作業那我想請教那目前我們對於爭取深夜危老津貼及專業家級的這種調整爭取的進度為何那是不是能夠得到人事總處甚至是我們行政院方面的支持"},{"start":5014.116,"end":5032.592,"text":"報告委員,我們部長非常重視生業的佳績。我們報人總,人總有他的意見,要我們再研議。目前我們還會在相關的一些理由補足,再來爭取。"},{"start":5034.674,"end":5060.52,"text":"至於委員提到的危險津貼我們現在是分成直接跟間接這個部分我們會就收容人的收容人數跟機關屬性的風險程度再來就為風險分級的概念來盡力爭取人種能夠同意我們的相關的危險津貼的佳績"},{"start":5061.53,"end":5078.499,"text":"好,那有沒有這個預期調整的這個幅度及這個可完成的一個期程?報告委員這個危險津貼這個還在研議中至於那個深夜加急100元這個部分我們會盡快再來報行政院"},{"start":5081.462,"end":5110.942,"text":"好那正如前面所說的那在監所工作的這些同仁平常都要面臨這種高風險高壓力的環境同時這個監所因為他的特殊性及隱蔽性也屬於比較封閉的這種職場環境對於同仁的這種身心健康狀況甚至是職場霸凌的情形比這個外界來看我們比較難得知那這部分我們是不是也應該設置充分的這種協助資源和申訴管道讓同仁可以來做使用"},{"start":5112.863,"end":5139.913,"text":"謝謝委員對我們那個矯正機關同仁的那個辛苦跟危險做一個關心那的確這個矯正署跟所屬各機關有訂定一個各機關員工協助方案的一個實施計畫另外心理智商這部分就是委由外部專業機構來辦理那我想這部分可以幫助我們同仁然後做一個影响一個友善環境一個關懷的一個機制那的確是我們矯正署的同仁是非常辛苦"},{"start":5140.293,"end":5159.608,"text":"那些工作環境也是具有相當的危險這部分也謝謝委員的關心好那這部分我們再請部長還有署長多加重視也為我們辛苦的這個基層同仁來爭取相關的權益以保障他們的一個相關的這個工作的安全好以上謝謝部長跟署長謝謝委員請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":5179.008,"end":5185.071,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部部長曾部長有請曾部長矯正署署長部長有幾個問題來請教第一個法務部你們跟別的單位比較不太一樣你們要面臨的"},{"start":5202.435,"end":5214.442,"text":"很多在立法院裡面接受國會議員質詢的時候,面相會有所不同啦。所以我剛才看你這樣跟黃國昌這樣一句來一句去,那是對的啦。那不是他跟你說完之後你就點注注。那有些國會議員在這個地方講,每一個人在質詢。"},{"start":5222.031,"end":5244.907,"text":"他有他訴求的一個對象可是站在法務部的一個立場的話你確實是應該把事情給去講清楚了但我本席今天要特別來提出這個問題來救教了就是說關於受刑人所有權力的一個累進的一個處遇要來請教我們矯正署這個地方到底有沒有研議改善的一個措施"},{"start":5246.328,"end":5263.777,"text":"本席在從進來到立法院這世界裡面我在各個委員會我都盡量去但是來到司法法制這麼無聊的一個委員會裡面我反而會對於很多學者專家提出的一個看法比較有那個機會去做一個研讀那譬如說"},{"start":5266.93,"end":5284.325,"text":"這個整個法制觀念的一個改變整個社會氛圍的一個改變這個廠長一走就是幾十年的路我想從2001年大法官會議528號解釋當初去講強制工作的部分他認為是合憲的"},{"start":5285.166,"end":5306.844,"text":"但是走了20年以後到2021年,施治812號裏面他又認為刑法第90條針對犯罪有犯罪習性的人遊蕩懶惰誠信而犯罪先進去勞動處所強制工作這個部分他提出批判甚至認為說違憲。就是說台灣瓜二十年後"},{"start":5310.487,"end":5311.048,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":5328.052,"end":5351.396,"text":"從2018年開始去做相關的一個研究那到今年的2月16號矯正署還有研商跟一堆的一個會議裡面我都一一今天要提出諮詢我都給你們給拜讀了那這些年來實務界跟學術界也在討論這樣的一個命題就受刑人你剛入監的時候接見跟發信的次數你受到嚴格的限制那就是處長這個你比較老你起來來"},{"start":5355.725,"end":5356.465,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":5381.421,"end":5395.467,"text":"這個其實都是有討論的一個餘地那我們如果從一系列相關受薪人的大法官解釋跟憲法法庭的判決裡面這個我們可以知道觀念就改變了你從4至第755號訴訟權4至756號通信權到4至812號強制工作這個再再都顯示受薪人的基本權的保障逐漸去受到重視"},{"start":5408.732,"end":5425.763,"text":"可是呢當一個社會案件一發生以後啊你們全部專業的觀念全部又扭曲又扭轉了我們受到這個社會的當下的一個氛圍影響太大可是喔司法這個部分"},{"start":5427.432,"end":5429.013,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":5456.715,"end":5457.436,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":5476.291,"end":5494.579,"text":"這奇怪怎麼偵查全部都揭露啊有時候哪是你們揭露是人家媒體懂得比你們還多啊有時候你們在辦案的方向還媒體跟你們提醒他掌握的資料比你都還要多啊所以到底是有時候很多案件到底是誰去洩漏偵查中的一個秘密啊有時候都很難論斷但確實啊如果一個偵辦中的一個案件啊"},{"start":5500.055,"end":5500.716,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支"},{"start":5516.505,"end":5540.433,"text":"他們逐步在廢除累進儲遇到了2006年他實質上更改為限制的一個緩和也就是說分了很多集那另外還有憂鬱的一個儲遇來評斷可不可超過基本生活之外的一個享受那這個跟台灣差別太大台灣沒有辦法我們沒有這樣的一個進步的一個概念我們也認為這樣子的話好像壽星人到監獄裡面去是好像過得非常爽"},{"start":5544.935,"end":5551.577,"text":"那所以我想就教的就是說法務部目前到底有沒有研議替代處意這樣的一個方案就教署長"},{"start":5554.142,"end":5556.243,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5580.393,"end":5580.613,"text":"稅務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":5598.44,"end":5599.881,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5623.31,"end":5629.212,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":5653.272,"end":5668.786,"text":"時代改變了,你說這樣的一個方式還對嗎?過去的強制工作,哪是要讓它復歸社會?以前的強制工作,因為時代的不同,它是在改造你的思想。現在誰敢改造誰的思想?"},{"start":5671.227,"end":5673.949,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":5694.461,"end":5709.973,"text":"我們確實還有精進的地方你說你自營作業的部分我看連施茂林在當法務部長期間你矯正署也去推展了你所謂的一監所一特色比如說你台中女子監獄你就經典巧克力我們屏東監獄也做有名的或頂新醬油金門的頂新養生面確實帶來更高的一個收入那佔總體收容人比例6%也只有6%而已"},{"start":5720.06,"end":5741.096,"text":"那間外作業的比例因為你壽星人需要外溢監的一個資格需要配合累進廚藝等級更高的狀況之下你那個人數更少了人數更少了所以本席要請教部長跟署長就是說不管你是委託或者自營或者間外的一個作業你關於作業基金的部分你們到底有改善方案嗎?"},{"start":5744.073,"end":5765.183,"text":"報告委員委託的部分我們會配合直訊勞委會勞發署進來開相關的會議因為他們對廠商比較了解盡量朝著對受請人有利的部分來做一些意向還有委託的部分我們會"},{"start":5767.464,"end":5768.845,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":5790.394,"end":5795.217,"text":"護理工生部分結合優良廠商,讓受刑人可以在執行中有8、9千塊的收入,可以把這些錢寄回去給家裡做貼補之用,"},{"start":5815.066,"end":5819.049,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":5845.54,"end":5871.496,"text":"那是一種民粹就是說我們去看看外遇間的一個改變剛開始是補充監獄不足的一個功能後來慢慢發現它不能只是一種監獄應該給他更多接觸外界的一個機會所以因此慢慢演變成說監外作業的模式讓他可以早日跟企業一般上不能達到跟上班族相同但是呢是一個把外遇間視為一個中間處於的一個機構沒錯"},{"start":5875.225,"end":5881.213,"text":"社會如果發生一個比較重大的一個案件的話立法院會有壓力這合理很正常"},{"start":5882.674,"end":5905.554,"text":"尤其是政府常常必須要去回應社會的一個需求。但是呢,我想來請教部長跟署長就是說,外間這樣的一個定位,你去把它做一個回想,從到去年,2023年之前,不管是哪一黨、哪一個政黨在執政,其實它都是進步的。"},{"start":5906.235,"end":5909.556,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":5931.772,"end":5943.006,"text":"我們你消極資格我們把它做一個限定那最後的核准權還是在於你法務部耶所以書長您現在去臨選的人外遇間的狀況簡單的做說明"},{"start":5947.763,"end":5974.444,"text":"跟委員做簡單說明,去年8月份我們新條例實施,那大概我們有臨險4次。臨險4次裡面,新條例到外遇監這些受刑人從來沒有發生過在工作中脫逃或是說他緩加探視沒有回來監獄報到。所以我們有兼顧到社會的安全。"},{"start":5975.245,"end":5978.187,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":5997.963,"end":6001.006,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":6021.741,"end":6026.906,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":6039.019,"end":6039.64,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6064.654,"end":6093.04,"text":"我告訴部長跟署長我去看到了台中女子監獄的一個外議監的分間我看那個林美玲她在2006年的訪談十位受信人裡面她也去認為說跟外界的溝通管道變多那我去另外2010年的研究裡面對外議監的修建農業發展創新並提供受信人的處遇北中南東外議監我的孟維德我也去拜讀了這是今年最新的"},{"start":6094.2,"end":6108.473,"text":"對這一些訪談的人以後都認為對於整個復歸社會是具備有成效的也就是說怎麼樣讓壽星人重新再回歸到這個社會今天我所提出這樣的一個修法我為什麼要做這樣的一個論述我非常一貫我就認為他"},{"start":6116.089,"end":6139.788,"text":"我們把立法院在整個消極條件我們去犯罪的類型我們去設定以後這個部分我們沒有去變動你最後的一個臨選裡面還是在你行政部門在你法務部積極條件這個部分確實啊我今天看到各黨提出這樣的一個修法是好好的來值得討論修正的一個必要以上謝謝好謝謝莊委員那下一位是審發會委員請"},{"start":6147.338,"end":6153.461,"text":"是我今天對你很好,讓你充分發言。來,請省委員。委員早。"},{"start":6175.66,"end":6190.191,"text":"部長早我想今天我們大概就針對我們法務部及所屬的就是主管的機關的單位預算我們來進行詢答那所以我"},{"start":6191.633,"end":6220.574,"text":"本席今天大概所針對的就會是針對我們這些相關的這些預算裡面我所本席所關切的一些部分首先就是因為我們在今年的7月我們通過打詐釋法其中重要的我們在刑事訴訟法的這個特殊強制處分專章裡面我們通過了這些科技偵查法制化的一個相關的作業那相關的立法"},{"start":6221.781,"end":6250.343,"text":"因此我就會特別關心這個我們這個科技偵查我們整個法制化之後我們相關的我們法務部幾個相關單位所屬機關的一個一個相關的預算是不是有所變動是不是有因應這個我們目前科技偵查法制化之後相關的這些科技作業科技偵查作業是不是有做這個預算的這些調整以及這個強化"},{"start":6252.335,"end":6268.246,"text":"我大概簡單先看我們整個這個今年的我們法務部的單位預算以及所屬的包括調查局、廉政署、小政署等等相關的這些這些預算我這今年法務部的預算大概增加了4651萬6千元這是我們這個法務部部本部的這個單位預算"},{"start":6273.677,"end":6277.339,"text":"第二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支"},{"start":6293.154,"end":6312.421,"text":"那矯正署的部分我就另外把它列不納入計算,因為矯正署它跟這個科技偵查比較沒有關係,但是它有科技的相關預算,等一下也許有時間的話也會跟署長來討論。所以這些相關的這剛剛我講法務部、調查局、廉政署,光這三個單位預算,總計增加大概4億3千147萬。"},{"start":6316.762,"end":6331.153,"text":"這部分我更加關心的就是說我們這個科技偵查法制化之後法務部主管有哪一些預算是因為我們這個科技偵查所增加編列的,那增編在哪裡?"},{"start":6332.074,"end":6355.481,"text":"重點是這些新增的預算他的預期的成果預期成效以及他對於打擊犯罪尤其是這個這個在放在我們放在打詐治法裡面我們對於詐騙案件的這個相關的偵查以及這個這個相關的這些工作是不是有所幫助這個大概是我本期今天質詢的重點部長我剛我講的這些數字都正確嗎?是"},{"start":6357.222,"end":6375.828,"text":"所以我接下來我針對相關的計畫如果是所屬的我就會請所屬的長官上來部長你就在旁邊一同了解我想我首先我剛才提到這個增加預算增加最多的大概是調查局調查局這個今年度的預算增加了這個4億98004億989萬4千元我們陳局長"},{"start":6388.096,"end":6411.466,"text":"這相關的問題我可能就請局長來回答。局長好。我看我們增加的4億多的預算,這裡面我注意到有幾個新增編列的計畫,而且這新增編列計畫大概也都跟科技偵查有所相關。"},{"start":6413.183,"end":6433.495,"text":"我這邊列出我找出來三個我們三個過去沒有的今年新增列的計劃一個是精進科技偵查計劃第二個是新型網路犯罪智能延期追緝計劃第三個是智慧司法與科技信任環境建構方案計劃這三個應該是新增的計劃對不對?那這個精進科技偵查計劃我們編列了878萬"},{"start":6443.342,"end":6454.074,"text":"那這個新型網路犯罪智能延期追緝計畫我們編列了2,210萬智慧司法與科技信任環境建構方案我們編了1,397.9萬三項計畫加起來總共這個4,486萬那我這個"},{"start":6468.118,"end":6493.369,"text":"這個這個在我這樣看就是調查局似乎有在在因為這一次的這個科技偵查的法制化之後有在相關的科技偵查的部分有確實有增列了新增的工作跟計畫但是我要了解這些計畫裡面卻有一些有一些實質的內容就比較不了解關於剛所提到第一個精進科技偵查的計畫我看你們其實是一個三年的計畫是不是一個三年的計畫他不是今年單獨的"},{"start":6495.511,"end":6497.713,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":6507.537,"end":6522.945,"text":"大概有兩個我比較注意到的第一個就是委辦費就是你們委辦希望能夠委託這個大學或學術研究機構就針對人工智慧新興科技建構筆跡輔助鑑識系統的研究費用"},{"start":6525.486,"end":6526.387,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6548.931,"end":6558.882,"text":"兩百一十六萬八千元來做這個臉部表情辨識軟體的設備在設備及投資的部分對不對這個是人工智慧的這個鑑識的這個部分"},{"start":6566.864,"end":6584.937,"text":"相關的見識我關心的是相關的見識包括對於數位簽帳筆記鑑定是不是納入規劃那你們這個見識能力最重要是這樣子未來的見識能力跟他的正確性跟客觀性這才是數位辨識裡面最重要的關鍵你們所期待的成效是什麼樣"},{"start":6593.263,"end":6620.246,"text":"我們希望就是說能夠在這個鑑識的過程裡面它的有效性還有它的那個效率能夠提高那目前是比較是傾向是用人工的其實面對目前這種新興的這種詐欺的犯罪其實是非常的不足所以我們希望能夠導入這個科技的這個能夠協助對我說具體的像剛剛這些數位簽章或是臉部辨識它對於打詐本身工作在哪一些部分會有所強化"},{"start":6621.647,"end":6622.648,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法治部長"},{"start":6640.168,"end":6652.393,"text":"公務員報告,目前我們在做簽名的鑑定上面,大部分都是用手寫的簽名鑑定,這部分的鑑定率我們的正確率是很高。我們目前對數位簽名,因為數位簽名跟手寫的簽名"},{"start":6662.517,"end":6666.459,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":6677.825,"end":6696.35,"text":"這部分因為是新增計畫,所以我們還沒有看到計畫的細目,希望在審查預算的時候我們能夠針對這些部分,我們來做進一步的了解。當然你另外還有這個新型網路犯罪系統延期計畫,那因為時間的關係我沒有辦法跟你一個一個細談,但是我比較,我這裡比較"},{"start":6698.127,"end":6707.299,"text":"要想要了解的是我剛所談的這個計畫裡面的第三個新增計畫智慧司法與科技信任環境建構方案你們總共花了1397萬這個也是新增的計畫那你們在這個這個"},{"start":6715.066,"end":6727.471,"text":"整個計畫內容裡面提到設備投資的部分提到說構置司法聯盟鏈共同驗證平台這個我很好奇因為我沒有聽過司法聯盟鏈這個名詞我是第一次聽到什麼叫司法聯盟鏈"},{"start":6733.954,"end":6759.549,"text":"共同驗證平台我了解,那什麼叫司法聯盟鏈?你們大概希望提供建設這個平台之後希望提供哪一些這是一個開放的系統嗎?這是一個提供給什麼樣的人使用的一個平台?是,報告委員這個司法聯盟鏈目前是由五個單位組成的一個是司法院、法務部、高檢署、調查局、警政署司法院、法務部是不是?高檢署、調查局、警政署"},{"start":6763.235,"end":6767.74,"text":"最後一個是什麼?警政署這五個單位組成這個我們會建置這個司法聯盟鏈主要就是為了要確認數位證據的驗證的同意性"},{"start":6778.53,"end":6805.088,"text":"就是數位證據,數位證據它包括保全啦,數位證據的保全也是有一個問題啦,因為它這個東西是這個我看我們這個最高法院的判決,對於數位證據,它有確定使用數位證據這個用語它提到說,它這個數位證據它有無限的可複製性再來它複製之後無差異性,這複製之後你不知道這東西是複製的還是原件"},{"start":6806.984,"end":6819.921,"text":"爭刪內容具無痕跡性製作人具不易確定性內容非屬人類感官可以直接理解像這樣子的這些數位證據的保全證據的保全以及驗證最重要是驗證"},{"start":6821.283,"end":6846.673,"text":"所以你們建立這個,你們現在花了1397萬建置這個平台未來是讓你剛剛所講的這些司法單位大家都可以共同使用共同使用這個平台來驗證共同將他們所取得的這些數位證據納入到這個平台裡面嗎?是的,這個一開始的五個會員會先把我們的數位證據上到這個司法聯盟鏈由他的這個"},{"start":6847.893,"end":6876.738,"text":"查湊值來確認說它的數位證據並沒有受到污染那未來會希望能夠有更多的司法調查單位甚至律師公會也能夠加入這個司法聯盟的運作大家在法院在檢查這個體系或是司法體系或是檢查體系大家對於數位證據的驗證能夠一致化保持它的一致性然後不會受到污染除了你講的這個司法聯盟鏈之外"},{"start":6877.915,"end":6883.432,"text":"一般民眾、全民可以共同來利用這樣子建制的平台嗎?"},{"start":6885.35,"end":6912.593,"text":"目前是沒有但是未來的發展它會有一個查詢平台在你們的預期關鍵成果裡面你們有提到整合規劃存驗證共同平台提供全民容易接近使用區塊鏈的服務它驗證分兩種一種是司法就是這個鏈上面的司法警察單位或是我們去做驗證但另外一個是民眾假設你被搜索了"},{"start":6913.093,"end":6913.394,"text":"稍後請陳局長。"},{"start":6928.337,"end":6953.498,"text":"你們現在這三個新增的計畫,這個部分我想本席是為予支持的,因為畢竟我們這個科技偵查法制化之後這個納入確實是應該要投入更多的資源,將這個科技偵查相關所需要的需求跟我們過去不足的地方,因為法制化之後我們可以編列正式的預算,我們可以進行精進。但這些相關新增的計畫,正因為這些計畫是新增的,"},{"start":6956.34,"end":6981.719,"text":"所以我希望這些計畫的執行,這個部分這個局長你負有督導之責,相關最重要的是每一個計畫它的預期成果,包括階段性的,三年計畫它今年的階段性目標是什麼?第二年階段性目標是什麼?我在你們的計畫裡面其實沒有看到你們所提的這些具體的階段性目標,具體的目標或階段性的成果。這部分我希望全局長能夠加強督促好不好?是,是,謝謝委員,謝謝。"},{"start":6986.327,"end":6991.11,"text":"接下來請吳思瑤委員。接下來請吳思瑤委員。謝謝主席,有請部長。"},{"start":7021.78,"end":7043.911,"text":"博言早博言早大家都辛苦了我今天要來搶救司法預算也是搶救我們法務部的預算因為打擊犯罪不能夠有任何的空窗所以大家要總動員來搶救國家的司法預算當然法務部的預算是屬於司法預算當中很大的一宗啊下一頁"},{"start":7045.132,"end":7067.189,"text":"目前你們面對的三大預算危機部長真的是非常的險峻第一個在野黨揚言他們會大砍法務部的預算可能是基於對於個案的不滿可能是基於政黨的對立進行政治的報復我非常不樂見審預算要理性要專業"},{"start":7068.669,"end":7095.943,"text":"第二個危機是總預算的審查已經延宕很久了依我們的法定職權要在這個月底12天後完成審查現在在野黨排了非常多政治的議案剩下12天的時間我們今天居然是才站上法務部預算的尋答我真是比誰都急第三"},{"start":7099.271,"end":7126.891,"text":"藍白委員聯手惡修了財政收支劃分法之後嚴重的掏空了中央的財源所以部長這每一項都會強害我們的法務部不管是我們的各級的檢查機關不管是我們的矯正機關我們的調查局我們進行所有的犯罪的查辦防範都會受到嚴峻的影響下一頁"},{"start":7129.199,"end":7136.367,"text":"這個是大家最近都不陌生新聞上一再的看到委員們一再的喊話、揚言、鬧狠話要大砍法務部的預算"},{"start":7141.636,"end":7160.397,"text":"我前幾天在針對大法官人事同意權的行使的時候我聽到未來的被提名人希望渴望成為亞洲第一位女性司法院的院長張文正院長他說廣義的司法預算台灣編的司法預算只有國家政府總預算的1%"},{"start":7162.842,"end":7179.11,"text":"人均司法預算每一個國人享有的司法預算大概只有1100餘元1164元我們遠低於歐洲歐盟進步國家的中位數的一半都不到"},{"start":7180.296,"end":7208.075,"text":"人力的部分也是我們對於司法資源不是預算就是人力嘛我們的人員也未達歐美進步國家司法人員的中位數的二分之一所以我們要搶救所有珍貴的司法預算法務部的預算就是要讓國家的司法能夠順利犯罪能夠偵辦然後所有的偵辦之後從檢察官到法院大家都不要過勞"},{"start":7210.777,"end":7220.349,"text":"所以我替您整理出來連續三年過去在民進黨作為國會多數的時候我們至少捍衛了司法預算的獨立"},{"start":7222.419,"end":7243.005,"text":"憲法增修條文第五條預算法第93條針對司法預算的獨立編列都給了非常大的某法的授權當然他多數的司法預算我的認知除了司法院當然一部分會落在我們法務部門所以說以過去平均三年的凍結數只凍結了487萬佔0.012%"},{"start":7249.847,"end":7260.753,"text":"那捅刪因為有院會的捅刪否則委員會的刪減是更少的即便經過院會的捅刪Total法務部的預算也只被刪了3億2513萬平均是0.8%"},{"start":7267.765,"end":7291.699,"text":"所以我說我們要捍衛法務部的預算部長您一定要硬起來這是過去我為您整理出來的如果今年度有過當的被刪減被大砍我們要拿出強而有力的數據捍衛司法乃至於法務部執法人員的預算您同意嗎同意全力來搶救下一頁"},{"start":7293.898,"end":7315.527,"text":"總預算其實沒有辦法通過過去在委員會還沒排委員會之前在院會就被擋了6次中央政府總預算因此新興計劃沒辦法執行高達2050億下一頁在法務部門如果總預算沒有辦法在12天後完成審查法務部"},{"start":7317.027,"end":7334.164,"text":"從我們建立新世代網路犯罪追查平台的打詐升級的軟硬體再到我們要減輕所有的基層的檢查人員的人力負荷乃至於矯正機關要落實人權的保障來提升矯正機關的軟硬體加起來我們的新興計劃11.26億是沒頂沒當"},{"start":7341.551,"end":7348.118,"text":"所以我要呼籲大家遊說預算,爭取預算不是只有部長一個人的事。"},{"start":7349.195,"end":7375.65,"text":"大家要捍衛我們的工作權跟我們依憲法所賦予的職權大家都要動起來這是我對大家的期待大家服務的分區也取在不同的縣市但是我們都有同樣的網絡可以去向我們所認識的親近的我們深信是為人民的利益發聲的立法委員大家都要一起來捍衛我們珍貴的預算下一頁"},{"start":7378.553,"end":7380.174,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7401.331,"end":7413.511,"text":"在打擊犯罪的部分警政署中央治安的相關預算減少或是受影響會受波及的有360億我們來看看法務部"},{"start":7414.946,"end":7439.468,"text":"如果財化法被大砍了,法務部的可用財源會有136.6億可能受到波及,會遭殃。包括大家都要防毒,我們要查緝毒品,向毒品宣戰。6.6億的補助毒品防治特別收入的基金就可能受到衝擊。"},{"start":7441.158,"end":7464.999,"text":"我們都關心所有的基層檢調人員的檢押高達21.1億的各級高檢、地檢署、辦理刑事案件、偵查及執行業務的經費21.1億會受到影響矯正機關我最關心矯正機關的軟硬體的提升來提升我們寓所或看守所的人權"},{"start":7467.322,"end":7490.021,"text":"依據國際的人權公約但是矯正機關受到才化法的影響波及也非常的大對於收容人改善監鎖的計劃也都因此可能停擺當然調查局你們要精進所有的打詐犯罪的偵防提供更精良的武器的預算也都受到影響"},{"start":7490.882,"end":7510.425,"text":"我整理出來打架司法通過之後但因為才化法的災難打架預算受影響會有28.8億。下一頁所以部長就教於您我們如果21.1億我要請大家動起來的理由在這裡"},{"start":7511.909,"end":7521.518,"text":"基層檢察官的過勞我們依據的這一筆21.1億的補助偵查執行刑事案件的經費如果沒有了我們說的基層檢調人員的檢押根本就是如同空談部長你有什麼妙方怎麼來解決這個問題"},{"start":7540.137,"end":7544.363,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":7555.737,"end":7557.358,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":7582.193,"end":7582.974,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7598.823,"end":7623.581,"text":"就是整個一個一個主要是在擴編的都是在一個除了人員的因為那個薪資的調整那個以外最主要的還是在那個打詐跟緝毒還有科技偵查這邊的一個增加今天時間有限我要趕快來結尾報告部長報告今天坐在這裡所有我尊敬的我們一起投入國家的檢警調"},{"start":7625.923,"end":7639.69,"text":"優秀的司法從業人員大家要動起來我們要發聲我們要讓台灣的司法的獨立跟我們的辦案的品質擁有最精良的武器我們需要預算"},{"start":7641.104,"end":7664.164,"text":"大家一定都要把這個聲音傳達出去當然我們也會透過審查跟協商的過程捍衛大家的預算下一頁部長兩個作業您帶回去矯正機關的簽件改建的計畫呢我們從101年到現在推了五所臺北監獄、宜蘭監獄、雲林第二監獄、巴德外益監跟彰化看守所"},{"start":7665.285,"end":7693.238,"text":"降化看守所5.1億114年度新編的執行完了以後我沒有看到有其他的新的擴遷或是改建的計畫我沒有看到但我沒有時間來論述我整理了非常多的數字我們需要去擴建監獄跟看守所尤其看守所的人權的狀況是比監獄更為嚴峻的我需要看到你們新的計畫再下一頁"},{"start":7694.498,"end":7716.281,"text":"過去推動一人一床的政策,但是也沒有反映在新的預算的編列上。所以我在這裡預告,我希望來年你們編列對於矯正機關的擴簽件的各項預算,我們一定全力來捍衛。我再次強調,監所本身,好,我們再看下一頁,對不起,佔一點點時間。"},{"start":7718.002,"end":7723.751,"text":"矯正機關53%超收女收容人的人權待遇最差我沒有時間講內容下一頁"},{"start":7726.311,"end":7753.549,"text":"一人一床實施多年還有五成沒有達標而當中看守所的進度是最差的在下一頁法定收容人的居住空間過小我們已經嚴重落後了國際人權的要求現在法務部的這個執行基準是針對收容人的居住空間的法定0.7平2.3平方米遠低於歐盟理事會國際紅十字會的標準"},{"start":7757.212,"end":7779.027,"text":"你們回去想一想你們現在的基準要調整而且現在的基準只針對監獄對於看守所完全沒有基準基於無罪推定的原則看守所裡頭收容的人權我們更要重視不好意思再用多一點時間因為預算非常的珍貴我提點的問題我們後續在審議預算的時候我們再來交換意見好嗎"},{"start":7781.429,"end":7781.969,"text":"主席有請政部長請政部長委員早"},{"start":7808.643,"end":7810.526,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7822.616,"end":7845.568,"text":"毒品。答對了,毒品。就毒品濫用的問題。這幾天就可以在新聞上看到,就是耶誕跨年即將到來,警方鎖定販毒集團大量趕至喪屍毒煙彈,準備趁假期繞一波。在台北、台南多地,警方都破獲製毒工廠,這個部長知道嘛,對不對?"},{"start":7848.109,"end":7850.893,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":7864.489,"end":7885.604,"text":"衛福部食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統的非尿液檢體今年一到十月總共檢出了2905件比起去年的22件數量暴增132倍那部長認為原因是什麼?"},{"start":7886.974,"end":7889.855,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7909.864,"end":7919.31,"text":"事實上我們可以看到尤其針對這個所謂的喪屍毒煙彈目前我們在法制上跟查緝作為上部長可不可以稍微說明一下"},{"start":7922.175,"end":7946.914,"text":"這個上市宴旦這個新興毒品這部分是我們青春那個校園青春專案跟案具企圖跟查緝的一個重點那我們檢察機關的指揮調查局跟警察司法檢察機關那我也最近對上市宴旦的查獲也非常的一個豐碩那這部分對社會都有一個報告是這部分持續查緝的情形我是請台高檢署跟那個調查局長來做一個補充有請局長"},{"start":7952.199,"end":7952.76,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":7974.643,"end":7976.904,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":8000.251,"end":8006.679,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":8020.414,"end":8039.141,"text":"我們希望能夠達到這樣子的一個嚇阻效果啦因為那但是現在才剛升到二級我們不是那麼明顯目前還看不出來我現在唸幾個新聞給你看就來看看這問題有多嚴重實際上我覺得局長也好部長也好你們都在跟時間賽跑是因為那依託彌子上次煙彈的"},{"start":8044.466,"end":8061.602,"text":"12月2日改列二級毒品人不怕男子30日吸上司煙彈駕車車體搖晃被打12月3日吸食上司煙彈昏睡路邊機警查貨火速逮捕送一送"},{"start":8062.723,"end":8075.208,"text":"12月3日,又是喪屍煙彈,三重南開車斷片撞燈桿,腳還猛踩油門。12月5日,北市南駕車衝撞超商騎樓,警方查獲喪屍煙彈送辦。12月6日,單車騎士在北市路口飄移,車欄藏喪屍煙彈。12月8日,龜山警帶二案再生通緝犯。"},{"start":8091.815,"end":8096.738,"text":"他自撞安全島,釣出喪屍煙彈12月10日19歲車手吸喪屍煙彈起檔,超商收賬款80萬落網12月13日"},{"start":8107.174,"end":8114.363,"text":"領口袋、試炸弦起訴二級毒品喪屍煙彈12月14日盤查改裝車毒冤央系喪屍煙彈招待12月14日台東男身上藏喪屍煙彈"},{"start":8125.798,"end":8148.893,"text":"12月15日富康巴士駕駛疑似吸食喪屍煙彈自撞兩車恍惚到連鑰匙都找不到12月17日男駕車蛇行險撞警車收出喪屍煙彈12月18日男獨駕連撞四車造成二女受傷起禍喪屍煙彈12月18日高雄男獨駕"},{"start":8155.518,"end":8162.585,"text":"關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":8178.773,"end":8203.006,"text":"現在這種所謂喪屍煙彈這個毒品的狀況已經跟別的毒品有一個很大的差別它已經危害到一般民眾零零種種全都是毒價說真的我們民眾走在路邊不管你再怎麼遵守交通規則你遇到吸食喪屍煙彈的毒價的毒價犯請問局長跟部長民眾怎麼防止有辦法防得了嗎"},{"start":8204.347,"end":8222.249,"text":"這個部分確實會到對於民眾的生命造成那個人身的危害啊那這也是我們必須要趕快加速努力的地方我剛念光念新聞啊我跟你講就17件啊19天17件啊每1.7天出事一次啊"},{"start":8223.294,"end":8240.491,"text":"所以民眾在路上都要擔心遇到這些不定時炸彈這是真的當然我覺得要非常非常期待我們這個法務部檢調真的是該時間賽跑啦因為這個毒品的危害非常的強大"},{"start":8241.092,"end":8241.232,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":8257.088,"end":8257.128,"text":"稍後會議"},{"start":8280.06,"end":8281.141,"text":"部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":8295.589,"end":8318.095,"text":"有適用上市現貸或販賣的我們希望一定要去具體求証該羈押的就羈押另外我們所有的司法警察機關這一段時間有查緝的都有獎勵提高他的相關的一個獎勵對於還期數或者是一科罰金我們要求我們所有的檢察機關這部分一定要來嚴審另外網路的一個巡邏"},{"start":8320.916,"end":8322.437,"text":"收支部分關於法務部總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於"},{"start":8348.211,"end":8350.996,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8356.913,"end":8378.551,"text":"我的建議吼,我真的我的關心就是真的是快快快啦,擴大再擴大,因為真的我覺得現在部長你也覺得很恐怖吧,因為這真的是走在路上行人是連防都不能防的,沒錯吧?對,這有一個獨駕在那邊吸了喪屍煙彈,然後他就昏了,然後就油門一踩往旁邊一撞"},{"start":8379.933,"end":8381.394,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8400.785,"end":8403.088,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":8418.864,"end":8442.836,"text":"報告委員,的確,那電子菸的一個管理是非常重要,那目前我們也跟國建署還有相關的機關共同來去討論如何的強化聯合的一個茶器,那有效的從源頭來管理。我覺得尤其在電子菸這一塊,在它載具上面,它的進口販售跟使用雖然受到一定的規範,但實際執法情況其實相當受限。"},{"start":8446.241,"end":8470.084,"text":"這一點真的我希望說因為它的後面造成危害實在太嚴重了所以因此應該要在電子業的管制這一塊我希望法務部能夠拿出具體的辦法最後我還是要講一下就是說本期的小結論就是說事實上已經不只是我們講說一坨米子現在還有毒販改化學式合成所謂的液餅帕子對不對"},{"start":8470.905,"end":8496.864,"text":"所以它的變化速度又非常快擴散很快取得方便年齡往下降這在在對國家造成很大的危害所以我辦公室目前有針對電子煙器具還有三級毒品施用納入行則這些來提案那也參考法務部也編了不少業務跟基金在預算在反毒工作上希望法務部在法制工作上我們一起來努力支持好不好"},{"start":8498.286,"end":8521.104,"text":"謝謝委員,那個一餅帕子那個已經列為二期了那另外那個電子煙載具這部分我們在反讀會報有提出來討論這是由國建署來做一個主政那有關於這個源頭管理這部分包括邊境這部分我們請關務署來做加強的一個查緝那另外還有網路巡邏的問題因為這是剛才委員有提到這個是屬於那個年齡比較低的"},{"start":8522.205,"end":8547.506,"text":"所以他可是不是由上網去購買有些利用這些網路去買那這邊我們是有些訴發部這部分也會再做一個處理當然這不會全是法務部所以在這邊齁因為法務部是最前線啦所以不管是說這個衛福部也好或者是訴發部也好總而言之情況是非常嚴重跟危急拜託真的政府聯合起來加把勁"},{"start":8548.342,"end":8565.428,"text":"另外跟委員報告我們會怕那有些年輕的人從網路上看到這些的流動的資訊我們這部分也有協調替TWNIC能夠來去把它去相關的一個那屏蔽我們這部分我們一定會全力以赴拜託加油謝謝"},{"start":8579.71,"end":8581.831,"text":"請翁曉琳委員發言有請法務部部長還有矯正署的周署長請部長跟署長委員好部長好署長好"},{"start":8600.277,"end":8615.771,"text":"我想大概法務部非常清楚了解本席很在意的事情就是針對保外就醫的事情我現在想請周署長你們告訴我就是說到底現在有多少受刑人士保外就醫截至目前為止"},{"start":8621.652,"end":8646.318,"text":"報告委員我們保外就醫的人數都會每個月會有所變動所以最新的數字呢?最新的數字是不是稍後一下目前報告委員有400多人400多人最長的保外就醫的受刑人是保外就醫多少年?這邊"},{"start":8653.234,"end":8654.755,"text":"最長目前這邊是沒有資訊。超過9年以上的受刑人有多少人?"},{"start":8676.718,"end":8677.218,"text":"最長是23年,超過9年的呢?有多少受刑人?"},{"start":8702.639,"end":8725.214,"text":"我真的很驚訝,矯正署竟然沒有相關統計數字,而且這是很重要的訊息啊。報告委員,上一次我們有提供一些數據給委員那邊,但是因為他的統計有一個基準,基準點的不確定性。沒關係,你就以上次提供給我的數據有多少人嘛。"},{"start":8726.633,"end":8738.836,"text":"我的意思是說這難道不是矯正屬一個很重要的業務就你現在反而來問我說我記不記得請問今天其他的這個監獄的典獄長有在嗎?是不是都可以來匯報一下?跟委員報告我們是不是我們用書面來做一個答覆?"},{"start":8751.257,"end":8761.033,"text":"我跟你講現在這樣的情況你說我怎麼能夠不好好的去檢視矯正署的預算連這個最基本的數字都答不出來"},{"start":8764.363,"end":8781.317,"text":"我本來其實不太想再提保外就醫這件事情矯正署就是特別針對這個周署長其實我對周署長很尊敬我完全沒有說是要特別這個去挑剔矯正署但是我今天看到你們的矯正署的報告我有感而發你說你要提升矯正機關的能見度要妥適調整收容人的技能訓練職類"},{"start":8795.319,"end":8812.95,"text":"我看到這個部分我其實的感想就是矯正署你不需要有什麼這個太多的經費去做矯正機關的能見度只要陳水扁他多參加幾次活動你們矯正署就有名了啦可以告訴我一下法外就醫的情況現在相關的"},{"start":8822.199,"end":8842.925,"text":"法律的規定陳水扁的情況是符合保外就醫的規定嗎?跟委員報告我們保外就醫是以審查基準配合他的醫主來由台中監獄他每個月都會派人去...你台中監獄的那個監獄長有來嗎?有嗎?沒有,現在是審查預算的時候我希望他到"},{"start":8853.206,"end":8867.935,"text":"你們都沒有懷疑那個一族有問題嗎?民間人都知道陳水扁他早就已經恢復了身體的健康啊都還可以出席賴清德總統的就職大典口才辯解、頭腦清楚身體健康良好今天換成是任何一個受刑人有這樣的處遇嗎?"},{"start":8880.94,"end":8897.835,"text":"報告委員,有關這次那個國慶大典,淳水扁先生他也是在前一天他才確定能夠出席,因為這個是國慶籌備委員會邀請他確定能夠出席,跟你是不是要經過你的核准?請問一下組長,要不要經過你的核准嘛?"},{"start":8903.468,"end":8908.99,"text":"只是讓你們知道,不需要經過你們核准喔?那你們之前講的那些原則都寫好看嗎?所以你們可以拒絕國籌會的邀請,什麼叫做司法獨立?國籌會的邀請你們可以拒絕,是不是?"},{"start":8931.195,"end":8956.772,"text":"因為我們也配合一組一組方面覺得他參加這種所謂的國慶大典對他的身心狀況是有正面的幫助署長我跟你講你每次講這個話你知道嗎我把它撿起來放在我的短片短影片上面你知道有多少的民眾覺得署長您今天發言這是不可思議啊"},{"start":8957.833,"end":8969.457,"text":"如果說您認為說陳水扁今天參加總統大典是有助於他的身心健康的恢復但為什麼不把所有的受刑人我們都邀請讓他去參加這個總統的就職大典我今天很感慨就是我們一直強調司法獨立法務部的所作所為民眾都看在眼裡"},{"start":8980.56,"end":9005.77,"text":"報告委員九關陳先生他的遺囑就是有兩家一般的受刑人是一家就足夠了所以原則上他兩家我建議啊就要找十家啦都來證明說他的健康這個仍然是需要在外面這個治療而且還要給他各種各樣不同的職能訓練所以你這邊講的你雙龍能人的職能訓練還只能夠在監獄裡面辦啊"},{"start":9008.857,"end":9036.646,"text":"那也跟委員報告因為台中監獄在國慶當天也有另外派人到現場去做相關的瞭解。署長你現在講這些話就是我都不知道怎麼說對不對第一個你該不該核准他這違背了你們當時說是可以讓陳水扁保衛就醫的原則你根本不應該核准就你還派個專員去陪他這是成何體統啊然後另外我還要再講的就是"},{"start":9038.078,"end":9040.902,"text":"陳水扁到現在已經停審多少年了?請問今天那個檢察長有來嗎?就是針對這個案子。"},{"start":9051.943,"end":9054.266,"text":"請問到目前為止處刑了幾次?"},{"start":9072.949,"end":9076.772,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":9094.723,"end":9107.529,"text":"這部分我現在再請他們來再做一個提供。那另外那個教授偽證案是只有兩次吧?還是一次?我最近看到只有一次。北檢應該有好幾次喔。北檢到底有多少次?今天北檢有沒有來?是。"},{"start":9115.843,"end":9133.467,"text":"有關於陳水扁先生他在臺北地院庭審的這個部分我回去立刻查證以後來跟委員報告你要立刻查證我上次才請你們發文給我我看只有一次啊你們從104年到現在將近10年了你們只有提出一次你們對得起國人嗎"},{"start":9142.56,"end":9159.875,"text":"收刑人不是都應該要同樣的主意,你們停審,司法院停審也是不應該,那你們也應該要一直全,要請求要恢復審判,是恢復審理,你們也沒有啊,10年才一次。"},{"start":9161.721,"end":9163.041,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9191.277,"end":9209.362,"text":"法務部需要司法院我們還需要嗎?因為你們做的這些作為已經讓國人對司法失去信心就是權貴司法看看最近的南韓國會通過了總統彈劾案立刻就送到憲法法庭在過去朴槿惠總統"},{"start":9221.38,"end":9224.421,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":9248.596,"end":9257.799,"text":"從蔡英文到賴清德現在都不願意給這個陳水扁特赦但就回到你們法務部的問題回到司法院的問題我真的是拜託法務部矯正署還有我們的地檢署就是請你們要拿出這個骨氣好不好司法的脊樑在你們身上啊"},{"start":9278.097,"end":9289.712,"text":"不要讓國人看到這個今年矯正署周署長的回覆,看到高檢署竟然只有一次提出申請,這個實在是讓國民真的不能接受這樣子的一個做法。"},{"start":9298.342,"end":9324.824,"text":"我這個我之後會做一個決議啦或是其實今天我就要求你們以後每個月都要持續的提出請求法院要對陳雪扁的案子進行審理一個每個月提出不為過吧責任就不在你們的身上了接下來就看法院怎麼做請問部長還有這個高檢署的這個檢察長可以做到嗎"},{"start":9327.569,"end":9356.007,"text":"這個我們來努力。好,那周署長,那你呢?我會持續來就保衛醫治這個部分依規定來嚴格把關。依規定。我跟你說,不要逼我去修你們保衛醫治的條例喔。這樣子的話不要,這個因為陳水扁的案例,他已經是一個破口。我實在是覺得說你們矯正署不應該這樣子做。"},{"start":9358.442,"end":9359.643,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9388.118,"end":9394.762,"text":"麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在,那接下來鍾嘉斌委員,有請主席、在黨委員先進列席政務機關事長、官員會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生我們有請政部長以及范寶理事長的張檢察長"},{"start":9417.194,"end":9420.261,"text":"那也請那個黃謀信黃長賜請協助委員早 委員好"},{"start":9424.557,"end":9447.986,"text":"部長好檢察長好還有次長好今天我在談到的是為了強化被害人保障及輔助犯保法應該納入性影像的犯罪來請問部長我上次有跟你請教過為什麼目前台灣詐騙這麼嚴重這些詐騙的被害人那麼多有沒有考慮把它納入犯罪被害人的權益保障法你說這個你不太認同為什麼什麼原因"},{"start":9448.866,"end":9461.475,"text":"犯罪、詐騙犯罪這麼嚴重了,范寶寶為什麼不把這些詐騙犯的受害人納入呢?詐騙的受害人納入。犯罪被害人就是詐騙的被害人,這部分我們在詐欺危害防治條第53條應該都有做一個保護了。"},{"start":9466.678,"end":9488.095,"text":"那因為這個讓我們犯保法犯罪被害權利保障最主要是還是在保障在補償補償補償這是一個補償就是以補償為出發點我們看一下來哪些犯罪的被害人適用犯保法在87年犯保法第一條他怎麼說你直接講我都幫你列出來了"},{"start":9490.598,"end":9510.712,"text":"報告委員,就是因為犯罪被害而死亡的遺屬或者是受重傷,另外還有性侵這一部分也算。現在那是87年,你講得很快,我還沒問到哪裏,死亡不可回復,受重傷可能傷殘,因此他不能夠得到,因為他生活會因為這個難以平復的傷害,他會陷入困頓對不對,所以部長。"},{"start":9512.233,"end":9514.975,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":9526.698,"end":9528.139,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":9542.612,"end":9547.256,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":9568.936,"end":9574.33,"text":"他試藏這個密片清查之後有未成年的少女會去拍攝你知道這個問題很嚴重"},{"start":9576.343,"end":9599.242,"text":"對不對?那我們往下看。那請問一下,這些性暴力的被害人,我說的性暴力的被害人,他們受到的包括什麼?他們可能會覺得有壓力症候群,會自責,會反覆地做噩夢,甚至呢他們要面對討回公道要漫長的司法程序。請問,部長,你認為性侵害或性影響的被害人是不是都面臨到同樣的困境?"},{"start":9600.916,"end":9624.725,"text":"的確這些那個性侵害跟性影像的被害人,性侵害我們那個已經有列入了。是的。那個性影像的這部分是他整個這個不是一個身體受到的一個。他雖然不是身體直接受傷害,可是在他的性影像的製作或散佈的過程當中有同樣的問題。我們舉個例好來,次長要幫忙講,我們往下看,次長你來幫忙回答。"},{"start":9625.758,"end":9627.079,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9647.87,"end":9651.872,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9674.381,"end":9680.223,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":9698.174,"end":9724.804,"text":"犯保法這樣規定只是遏止傷害擴大有沒有對被害人進行保護或補償?有沒有?部長你覺得呢?往下看。有沒有?其他的那個三法是沒有,它是直接是像委員所講的齁就是對加害者的這份刑務者的一個加重以及避免損害的一個擴大。但是我們看到了,但是犯罪人被犯罪被害人權益保障法他保護的目的是被害人。"},{"start":9726.056,"end":9748.683,"text":"檢察長是不是這樣子?您的理事長張理事長稱呼是這樣嗎?我是董事長。噢,董事長對不起。基金是董事長。檢察長是這樣嗎?所以你們成立的目的是要保障或者保護被害人嗎?對,我們是希望保護所有的被害人。好,那往下看。謝謝我們董事長,張董事長。很難得人家有人叫你中檔。"},{"start":9751.007,"end":9764.035,"text":"犯罪被害人權益保障法第3條其實你看看我們已經把性侵害當中至少把刑法的第221條還有兒少性剝削防治條例的33、34、35、36到37其實部長你對這個法條熟不熟還是要請黃執黨答這些兒少性剝削防治從33條到第37條他處理的是什麼行為加害人的什麼行為"},{"start":9782.179,"end":9811.505,"text":"有沒有人知道?市長知道嗎?來,市長講一下。三十三就是怎麼樣?他對兒少進行挾持,要強命他拍攝,甚至在清漢過程中在錄影,對不對?三十三、三十四、三十五、三十六、三十七,這五條,都是直接,這個加害人他是因為要製作影像而直接對當事人進行加害,是不是這樣子?但是,這些已經納入了犯保法了喔。"},{"start":9812.438,"end":9839.905,"text":"但是有些犯罪是什麼我已經找不到誰做的影像了他可能偷拍但是這些影像的散播跟持有這些兒少性影像是不是同樣對被害人產生同樣的傷害他沒有直接對他這些行為人的現場的對身體的限制強迫可是後面的這些影像的散播他的傷害是同樣的市長你是不是這樣子"},{"start":9840.245,"end":9844.686,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":9869.192,"end":9873.86,"text":"黃次長你說了三個部分啊你說第一個一個是量能的問題"},{"start":9875.237,"end":9878.98,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":9900.629,"end":9903.115,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9909.264,"end":9910.245,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9936.104,"end":9957.362,"text":"好,你來看一下目前性侵的被害人他有生活重建有訴訟協助有保護命令有補償金但是性影像的被害人呢只有保護命令保護命令是什麼避免傷害擴大他有沒有生活重建有沒有訴訟協助有沒有補償金董事長看你宅心人後你覺不覺得未來性影像的被害人可以把這三個部分都補上"},{"start":9958.864,"end":9979.922,"text":"法務委員,這部分有待進一步的研議,那基本上如果能夠去多加保護,那我們也是贊成,只是剛剛那個黃市長有提到相關的一些的配套的一個措施,恐怕要再更深入的一個研議。委員現在請你上來,因為你白髮斑斑,慈眉善目,應該經常比我們次長好。"},{"start":9981.883,"end":9985.086,"text":"事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":10001.857,"end":10020.238,"text":"部長看你的態度囉你應該心腸也跟我們張董事長一樣第一項我們來全力來做那第二項的話我們真的是要研議那我們還要在內部再做一個研議那我想我們會最快速度跟那個委員來做一個報告"},{"start":10020.418,"end":10042.415,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10043.857,"end":10061.103,"text":"報告委員,我想這部分我們會進一步研議,如果是可行的話當然我也樂觀啟程。您不適合講研議,你說我們努力來推動,研議是交給部裡面好不好?您努力來推動可以嗎?謝謝委員。謝謝委員是什麼意思?是我可以下台了嗎?"},{"start":10062.25,"end":10064.311,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10092.369,"end":10115.505,"text":"好,主席謝謝,麻煩請鄭部長。委員好。來,部長好。部長,我看到媒體有報導啊,我想請教一下,可能你會比較了解鄭家軍啊,要在哪裡報名?沒有鄭家軍的。沒有鄭家軍?沒有沒有沒有。"},{"start":10117.417,"end":10143.795,"text":"看來部長也知道鄭家軍我都還不知道我都沒有講說他是一個人民還是一個職稱還是一個單位部長就已經講沒有鄭家軍了沒有因為委員說有沒有鄭家軍我說我沒有聽過沒有鄭家軍沒有鄭家軍也不知道從哪裡報名但媒體上怎麼會寫你有看到媒體報導啦檢察長14人的初選名單裡面初選名單已經出爐那其中鄭家軍入圍啊"},{"start":10146.224,"end":10162.634,"text":"這個我不曉得這個媒體從何就是從何判斷從何認定所以也沒有辦法報名不然我想說也要提示一下讓大家知道有鄭家軍的話趕快報名啊有報有機會啊人人有希望各個沒把握但至少有報有機會嘛"},{"start":10164.888,"end":10182.978,"text":"來部長那我再請教一下因為本席會提出來其實我看到我也很訝異我想說如果連媒體都那麼不公正客觀啊媒體都覺得是說法務部現在在領選所謂的檢察長都有分你我分內外分親疏遠近當然不允許嘛我想部長你認同吧"},{"start":10184.412,"end":10202.675,"text":"這部分我們認為檢察長的一個臨選,那我想我們經過一個很嚴密的一個機制,這個是要有人選委員兼選委員做一個提名。要專業嘛,是不是應該要專業,要判斷,要客觀,要公正,要獨立,這才是我們符合檢察長的一個期待嘛,是吧?"},{"start":10203.495,"end":10223.162,"text":"這個我這個都是應該是簡單應該有的一個特質好那我請教喔因為這一次被形容媒體報導講說法務部舉行歷史上首次檢察長的面試而且針對說參選人要如何領導同意以及對檢察界未來的期許兩大主題發表講演每人7分鐘"},{"start":10225.785,"end":10241.615,"text":"這算是您的創舉還是說過去有沒有這樣的例子?這個是的確是,我們是,這是由檢審委員提出來的,不是我只是要這樣做的,不是你檢審委員提出來,因為希望就是在一個公開透明的機制上,"},{"start":10242.415,"end":10268.647,"text":"再來再來做一個一個做一個暢談整個檢察長的一個理念以及他的一個報告那這樣子這個這個這個不是這個不是我提的那那這個我是樂見其成的因為這是檢審檢審委員提出來檢察長剛有講到是說這個是檢審委員會而且希望公開透明那國人也在想說如果說這樣的話這個講演每人7分鐘啊能不能上網直播給大家看"},{"start":10269.269,"end":10271.49,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":10295.649,"end":10314.41,"text":"如何另討同意對檢察界的未來期許?因為其實我覺得公開透明很重要,我也認同。如果說剛剛部長講是說既然要公開透明,是不是能夠更公開透明?就不只是說我們的這個聯審委員這邊來了解,因為我想國人也很關注啊,如果說未來這一些是我們的檢察長的話,"},{"start":10315.931,"end":10337.645,"text":"事宜不要讓外界認為是說已經有內定名單了也不要讓外界認為是說哪一家的軍就比較強勢哪一家軍就比較弱勢那是不是能夠讓國人也清楚明白了解一下是說這些檢察長對於如何領導統一對未來的報復期許如何能不能直播上網我想技術層面是沒有問題啊"},{"start":10338.945,"end":10348.409,"text":"這個是屬於那個檢審員他們自己自己辦的一個跟這些報名的你這樣子會不會讓淪為就是說好像是過場會讓人家覺得是說思想審查的狀況你要講到確定關鍵字還是你要講到你的領導同意會變成"},{"start":10356.932,"end":10358.853,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":10386.465,"end":10390.128,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":10405.08,"end":10427.467,"text":"公開大門走大路讓大家知道是說沒有這樣的狀況否則只會更加深這疑慮因為如果說到最後確平眾選的真的是所謂的鄭家軍那我覺得這樣子反而明明如果說人家是有專業的那反而你會更無法自圓其說這是第一個部分先聽完本席的問題不要急著回答這樣顯得心虛真的"},{"start":10427.987,"end":10431.229,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案審查114年度中央政府總預算案審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":10453.325,"end":10455.126,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10479.13,"end":10503.495,"text":"我也直接直指到現在部長您知道嗎?我們Google上網只要搜尋電子煙三個字首頁就可以跳出來它的官方網站那其實這一些我之前有看到光販售尼古丁相關的一個用品其實就違反我們的要事法可以處刑責跟五千萬以下的罰款"},{"start":10504.728,"end":10525.724,"text":"我們也看到有人只是從國外買了紙煙要上網去拍賣也會違反相關煙害防治法我們也是減掉主動的一個稽查那何以個人的行為我們都會有主動稽查的狀況但到目前為止當Google我們最多人使用的搜尋引擎"},{"start":10526.585,"end":10549.148,"text":"只要打電子驗三個字還不用任何的技巧不用任何的暗示不用任何的暗號都可以直接搜尋到官方網站他自己架設官方網站然後裡面洋洋灑灑你想要買什麼口味就有什麼口味你想要買什麼型號就有什麼型號你想要買拋棄式的就有拋棄式你想要買這個長效型的就有長效型部長"},{"start":10550.728,"end":10572.537,"text":"那麼嚴重的狀況我們能不能有一個比較積極的作為來直接打擊不然你把上次煙彈列為二級這個是本期上一個會期就已經提出了質詢當時雖然你沒有鬆口可是到最後你有做列為二級本期於肯定可是另外一個部分是載具的部分這一些是不是應該也要主動積極來查辦"},{"start":10574.6,"end":10597.063,"text":"謝謝委員,大概載具這個問題,那個電子煙這部分人為上市煙灘的載具這部分的確是非常嚴重。現在這邊我們在反讀匯報,反正我們也提出來,我們是建請我們在而且台高減水統合企圖的單位,這部分我們也是促請他那個載具電子煙的主辦的主管機關是衛福部的國建署。"},{"start":10597.703,"end":10598.244,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":10615.496,"end":10615.756,"text":"稅務部主管稅務部主管"},{"start":10635.55,"end":10662.638,"text":"像這一種的下架,又是不是可以給他下架限制瀏覽的或者是怎樣的一個讓這些沒辦法利用這些網路來做一個販賣的一個途徑那這部分我們都協調各部會做全管的部分來做一個處理部長平常嗜好是不是踢足球我沒有在運動因為每天都忙著看這些巡打資料部長你剛剛踢皮球踢得蠻大力的啦"},{"start":10664.908,"end":10678.675,"text":"我必須講你這樣剛的回答我都已經可以預想到你講了衛福部你講了速發部你講了關稅署也就是財政部但是本席就是提出來因為過去我們就是有相關的檢查嘛"},{"start":10679.695,"end":10703.512,"text":"對,不要說個人的行為我們都會用地檢相關檢查結果沒有想到是公司化的經營、集團化的經營反而法務部沒有作為我們沒有作為啊這一點就是我們是企賭的所以我們從企賭的個案我們發現很多的管理上源頭的一個漏洞所以我們會回饋給各個權管機關來做一個防篤嘛所以這個剛才已經那麼久的時間了其實很實在話講"},{"start":10709.079,"end":10735.054,"text":"你審查明年的預算本市也剛看了一下預算的部分編列了很多打擊詐騙打擊煙毒這個是期不免的嘛這一些都是但是我們現在看到的有沒有違反有沒有違反鑰匙法販賣尼古丁有沒有違反鑰匙法有啊那個這不有違反當然我們要加強查緝嘛但是屬於那個那個那個什麼那個那個電子煙的載具的管理的問題"},{"start":10736.184,"end":10739.105,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":10764.277,"end":10767.304,"text":"檢查,屬的同仁全都在這邊我們檢察長都在這邊我真的拜託我們所有的檢察長啊"},{"start":10774.909,"end":10801.164,"text":"台灣2350萬人我們自己這一代跟我們下一代真的有拜託各位檢察長能夠指揮下面檢察官主動積極的辦理真的不用什麼技巧Google打開搜尋電子煙三個字第一頁就會出現那種販賣的官方網站裡面有賣尼古丁的有賣各種口味的有賣那些載具的那些載具剛剛部長也講了就是它是上市煙彈的載具"},{"start":10803.328,"end":10829.214,"text":"如果說我們的這一代跟下一代都那麼輕易的可以在網路上搜尋的到購買的到宅配今天下貨三天後到便利商店我們直接可以去領了結果這樣子我們還可以持續放任然後部長講說有有匯報那真的很抱歉啊我拜託所有的檢察長要升官要上位可以不用加入什麼軍只要你拿出魄力來查緝我相信就會有"},{"start":10830.254,"end":10833.376,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":10858.205,"end":10861.708,"text":"李燕秀蘇清泉葉元芝"},{"start":10887.379,"end":10909.205,"text":"主席好,請麻煩請法務部長部長部長你好委員好部長好我們平常在地方跑行程的時候其實最常聽到鄉親講的一句話就是詐騙犯實在太多而且詐騙刑責實在是太低那我們常常看到很多屢見不顯的個案我這邊隨便列舉幾個譬如說像"},{"start":10913.366,"end":10914.127,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10930.988,"end":10949.171,"text":"那右邊這個新聞圖很諷刺就是被遣返回台的詐欺犯一看到是華航整個都放心了為什麼因為他們很害怕在國外被審判審判的話刑期很重一回來想說台灣的刑期很低啊沒多久就可能被放出來甚至於連關都不用"},{"start":10950.046,"end":10956.631,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":10979.946,"end":10981.528,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10999.43,"end":11028.659,"text":"做一個修正來保障大家的這樣的權益。謝謝委員。事實上我們的法律不清。我們法律規定的蠻重的。但是是法院輕判。就像以339、刑法339之四那幾個一個犯罪它地板價是一年以上、七年以下。但是大部分時就像就像那個委員組就是輕判。那這部分怎麼去解決?第一法制我們有修法。所以詐欺危害防治條例所以我們有加重的一個修法。"},{"start":11029.139,"end":11030.68,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":11052.777,"end":11053.077,"text":"判判5年"},{"start":11069.707,"end":11071.589,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":11093.444,"end":11094.365,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11109.105,"end":11111.127,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":11138.48,"end":11143.002,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":11164.651,"end":11170.136,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11189.533,"end":11193.661,"text":"其實法務部如果把這個列為重點查緝對象應該...我們就已經認為重點查緝對象...因為...不然我的問題都還沒有問啊,可以先聽我講完嗎?"},{"start":11198.775,"end":11220.261,"text":"就是說如果你把這個列為重點查緝對象的話我覺得跨機關的合作要很重要啦比如說第一個警政署有沒有相關的配合像一般來講的話這個毒品查到你要去檢測嘛但是之前就發生過他們給他們的篩記就是不夠很多派出所可能就只有拿到一個篩記不敢用"},{"start":11221.601,"end":11236.871,"text":"所以你把罰則定得比較重但是如果相關機關沒辦法配合的話這個毒品的查緝還是一樣沒辦法達到效果還有類似像速發布的狀況也是一樣就是說在臉書的社團或是Google很容易就查到公然的販賣"},{"start":11238.472,"end":11239.952,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":11267.126,"end":11294.924,"text":"報告委員有關於跨部會的合作我們台高建署已經總共從今年3月到現在已經開了12次會議剛剛委員非常垂詢有關到網站的這些的查緝我們也建議這部分要及時的停止解析在上個禮拜速發部有開過會有邀請TWNIC那這部分大家取得一個共識未來如果有許諾這些的販毒的這些的網站"},{"start":11295.664,"end":11297.686,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":11314.966,"end":11335.438,"text":"有一個新聞說那個八大行業到某一個大學去招募女學生加入後來法官是判無罪因為法官講說八大行業去大學招募女學生他這個行為就跟社團招生的性質一樣所以是無罪那我不知道說站在法務部的立場覺得這樣子是OK的嗎"},{"start":11337.292,"end":11340.874,"text":"八大行業到大學去招募女學生跟社團招生性質一不一樣。"},{"start":11349.997,"end":11378.906,"text":"那個這個我想檢察官居然已經有起訴了齁那我想法院那判決無罪我想檢察官嚴厲來對我 我覺得我們不針對個案啦我是一個通案啦因為如果是這樣子講的話那八大行業很高興啊他們可以到各大學去招募因為這個就是社團招生嘛那當然是在整個一個道德或法律上這個是不允許或不適合的一個問題嘛對所以你覺得這部長你覺得不行齁那他違反到什麼法"},{"start":11381.408,"end":11381.768,"text":"社會秩序維護法違反社會秩序維護法"},{"start":11400.748,"end":11419.53,"text":"各位報告這個其實不是檢察官起訴他是違反社會秩序維護法是司法檢察機關直接向法院移送法院受判免罰不罰他其實跟檢察機關是沒有關係的我知道我知道我只問態度嘛因為今天這個新聞出來但這個權責上他權責上他是司法檢察移送法院來做處理的"},{"start":11420.071,"end":11440.558,"text":"我當然知道我只是說這個新聞這樣出來大家就覺得說喔原來八達行業區學校招生跟社團一樣我只是問你們態度因為你們是司法你們是法務部嘛我只是問你們態度而已啊不然八達行業覺得很高興啊就是說這個法律居然保障他們招生的權利啊當然我們支持警方的移送行為但法院的判決我們也要尊重啦好好謝謝謝謝請回"},{"start":11445.183,"end":11472.598,"text":"我們下一位請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員好那接下來我們麻煩林思明代理主席好接下來我們請吳宗憲委員發言好謝謝我們麻煩部長還有總長"},{"start":11475.285,"end":11481.948,"text":"兩位就教的主要是"},{"start":11496.091,"end":11497.672,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11511.343,"end":11538.143,"text":"所以當意見不一樣的時候在何議廷的時候意見不一樣的時候其實是少數服從多數那但是在這次憲判8號出來之後是要求大法官是要求說這個普通法院法官呢他如果要判死刑必須要一致決那當然這個一致決現在有很多的爭議啦那我們先姑且不論將來的問題我們就先討論這個有37位已經死刑判決的這個案子齁那"},{"start":11540.097,"end":11556.925,"text":"我想請問一下先請教總長因為這是通案性討論的一個議題啦那總長如果說我們就這37號死刑犯而且評議部還在的時候那如果有看到一位法官當初是不同意那請問這個是不是就要提非常上訴總長要麻煩你快一點我們現在"},{"start":11571.38,"end":11578.006,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":11601.452,"end":11628.361,"text":"這個是很重大人命關天的是要麻煩你們真的要認真認真面對我們現在全面的把這個所有資料我們都調過來也發了很多資料給相關的律師那如果說這個三十件現在三十件沒有評一部七件有但是如果說他這個沒有一字決的話我們依法來提起非常上述好那就就我剛剛所的理解因為跟總統報告一下"},{"start":11629.421,"end":11631.083,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11647.375,"end":11666.394,"text":"目前找得到評議部的,如果在評議部裡面發現曾經有法官不支持死刑,就最終審的法官不支持死刑的話,那就會提非常上訴。再來我下一個問題是,還有30件評議部銷毀了,沒有辦法證明是一致判死,那請問一下總長目前這個要怎麼處理?"},{"start":11667.415,"end":11670.437,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":11694.775,"end":11717.357,"text":"把這個所有資料現在在我們這邊我們也請這個律師已經大概有33件辯護來申請月券13件完成月券那我們依據實際上在今年年底以前完成31件的月券然後我們也寫了一些這個通知書給這些辯護律師希望他們能夠競訴來月券通知他們"},{"start":11718.038,"end":11719.299,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":11742.236,"end":11749.944,"text":"是這個意思嗎?那目前那個評議部還在的部分沒有一致決的嗎?"},{"start":11753.564,"end":11772.072,"text":"有沒有沒有一致決的?我們現在有跟這個相關的單位喔都要到這些評估現在有現在要到有七件都是有一致決的有的七件都有一致決好七件有一致決那萬一要非常上訴就這七件可能就是其他理由非常上訴而跟一致決無關嘛"},{"start":11772.952,"end":11793.179,"text":"除此之外,法務部主管本身不是一致決定,或是法務部已經找不到的或銷毀的,這就當作沒有一致決定。總統,這樣非常上訴的比例會非常非常非常高。你那30件沒有評議部的等於全部都非常上訴。然後再加上"},{"start":11794.198,"end":11796.719,"text":"稍後再請教一下,到底誰可以去申請去看這個評議部?"},{"start":11816.323,"end":11817.484,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":11839.514,"end":11857.731,"text":"最高法院去申請的時候最高法院說你不是當事人因為這刑訴法規定的你不是當事人所以拒絕那他拜託台高檢的高雄分署去幫他申請結果我們的高雄分署"},{"start":11859.69,"end":11865.273,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":11883.544,"end":11893.967,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":11907.711,"end":11908.852,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":11928.041,"end":11929.923,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":11950.041,"end":11957.895,"text":"所以當然我將來我還是會去請教在合法範圍內我會去請教那個高雄高分檢是怎麼回事請他們能夠"},{"start":11959.965,"end":11979.894,"text":"我們了解一下狀況是怎麼樣,那我還是這樣,我絕對不干涉個案,但是我希望通案的去了解,會不會國家還有其他人遇到一樣的狀況。就是他無處可申約嘛,整個國家又沒有幫他,那這時候我們這樣做對嗎?司法是保護人民,是維護社會正義,還是司法是找人家麻煩?"},{"start":11981.254,"end":12001.687,"text":"委員這個簡單一句話,委員講這個,因為這個案子我們也注意到,因為這個案子判決確定,所以我們現在正在研究,是不是體體非常上訴,謝謝沒有,我剛在談的不是這個,我剛在談的是家屬申請評議部,那個是無期徒刑確定,這跟非常上訴無關,總統還是要麻煩您聽我的問題啦"},{"start":12006.815,"end":12008.557,"text":"因為案子確定後了。我跟你說,"},{"start":12028.393,"end":12054.224,"text":"可以來申請月覽評議部的有被告有檢察官但是死者家屬不能申請嘛所以他今天能做的就是問院方我可不可以申請評議部院方說你不行你不是當事人這時候如果檢察官願意幫他申請的話他也可以啊但他今天得到的結論是檢察官不願意欸欸我不知道部長中你們是假裝聽不懂我的話嗎我覺得我講得很清楚啊"},{"start":12057.362,"end":12085.19,"text":"公文報告啦,當然只因為已經確定進入執行的話,當然已經沒有刑訴法的適用,這要回到政府資訊公開法或是檔案法的規定。檔案法,但如果已經確定的話,歸檔就檔案法去適用。如果沒有的話,政府資訊公開法來閱覽,但是它有另外一個潛力,因為是評議部,另外我們法院組織法106條,就這個閱覽一個特別的規定。沒有,老師謝謝你,來你看一下那公文,幫我把公文放出來。你看一下高分檢是怎麼回他的。"},{"start":12086.347,"end":12101.553,"text":"麻煩你們看一下右邊那個他是說本案非死刑判決案件沒有調閱的必要性我今天就這公文的去請教當然你法規你說用法規去告訴人民不行那我們公文上面寫清楚"},{"start":12102.554,"end":12106.637,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":12131.416,"end":12132.698,"text":"稍等稍等稍等稍等"},{"start":12143.53,"end":12167.437,"text":"那這樣家屬當然會覺得他是個孤兒啦各位報告齁這個台中高雄高分檢可能誤會委員要調業的意思啦所以他以為是殺人的案件事實上這個案子是判無極度刑的案件跟先怕108其實是沒有關係的他可能誤會了委員的意思那不管但是我看到高雄高分檢的函是這樣嘛那高雄高分檢是不是要出來解釋為什麼是這個說法"},{"start":12169.358,"end":12188.192,"text":"或是他們能否引用正確的條文去給家屬回覆。家屬在依據看有什麼正式的方式,像譬如說老師剛剛說的那個資訊公開法用那個方式去申請調閱,這是另外一個層次的問題。所以這個部分可能要麻煩你們給我一個回覆好嗎?"},{"start":12188.953,"end":12192.677,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":12208.072,"end":12209.975,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":12226.203,"end":12235.028,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":12256.719,"end":12282.233,"text":"憲判8出來之後我們國家司法體系一定會再被人民不信任我跟你保證因為人民不像我們念法律我已經是檢查體系出來我已經很能夠跟常常我都跟家屬解釋這不是檢察官的錯不是法官的錯是制度法律沒有修正前只能這樣但是我跟你保證民眾都聽不懂所以在民眾的眼裡就是這個王八蛋政府整天在那邊不保護我們"},{"start":12283.538,"end":12311.872,"text":"我很多次用力跟他們解釋但是他們聽不進去所以憲法發出來其實造成的問題很多不管是以自決、不管是最嚴重到目前都惹出很多的麻煩性那當然我也多次說其實就是法官在造法法官根本不應該侵害到立法權以及檢察官跟法官的獨立偵查或獨立審判權我都覺得這不是他們能夠去干涉的那另外"},{"start":12312.652,"end":12327.57,"text":"其實我們這次三、七個人裡面有一個黃春琦跟陳毅龍的那個案子他是非常久以前的案子然後他們是唯一死刑嘛那這個勢必會被非常上訴一定會的嘛因為大法官已經有交代了"},{"start":12328.531,"end":12341.48,"text":"回到普通法院我會跟各位報告還是之前有請教過總長跟部長的問題他們沒有符合GR的要件他有逃亡之餘嗎?他有篡政之餘嗎?二、三十年前的案子他要篡什麼政、滅什麼政?"},{"start":12344.002,"end":12346.004,"text":"收支部分關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分"},{"start":12359.818,"end":12384.786,"text":"那這個是不是將來對這37個有要另立專法真的要請法務部要去思考一下有沒有必要另立一個專法專門針對這37個因為這37個裡面有非常多人根本就不符合刑事訴訟法101跟101之1的羈押要件那我們一直講很多實務的也出來講現在就只有政客跟政客跟那些側翼整天說不可能叫我們不要委員聳聽但是你我我們都是"},{"start":12385.746,"end":12414.25,"text":"都是司法官出來的你們也一定懂我在講什麼那這會是一個很大的問題啦齁那就像我剛剛講那個黃春祺他們兩個人他們還適用10年就可以假釋的規定他行為實施在最早期的法律規定10年就可以扣掉羈押的時間他在如果判無期徒刑確定他不用5、6年就出來了啊那這個社會上面會不會害怕那辱人勒俗欸這真的很可怕齁所以這部分要麻煩"},{"start":12415.458,"end":12417.538,"text":"稍後會議時間繼續進行到排定的法案審查完畢為止"},{"start":12440.034,"end":12441.675,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":12457.666,"end":12484.403,"text":"所以不管是檢察官助理的法案推動或相關法案推動或者是打詐法案我都是盡全力的幫忙我並不是說對院檢有仇恨沒有我反而是希望讓我們的院檢能夠走向人民越來越支持所以在這幾個法案以及減輕檢察官跟法官工作量的這幾個法案我都是到處去遊說其他的立委一定要幫忙不要找麻煩所以你們也很清楚從一開始對於檢察官助理"},{"start":12485.529,"end":12486.971,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":12503.464,"end":12512.552,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":12531.617,"end":12547.134,"text":"公務員報告委員所提到的網路流量紀錄相關的14條之一第2項或是相關執法事實上我們已經完成在預告程序當中事實上它可以在近期內就"},{"start":12548.335,"end":12568.984,"text":"請問是外部監督單位還是內部監督單位?原則上它是內部監督單位,內控機制。因為你們還沒有推出來,那我再提醒一下,像德國它就是設置外部的中立單位,因為今天如果說我們收集資料的單位跟管考的單位保存跟監督的單位,"},{"start":12569.944,"end":12593.212,"text":"是同一單位或是類似的平常都在一起的單位其實民眾還是會打一個問號那這部分再麻煩老師這邊能夠想一下看能不能夠有什麼去修正能夠讓人民更信任那另外還有一個就是說調閱的部分因為通報法15條其實有某些範圍是檢警可以先就是自行去調閱"},{"start":12594.412,"end":12617.129,"text":"那這個自行去調閱的這個部分到底有沒有監督,那有沒有中立的監督機制?自行調閱的部分。各位報告,所有相關在11條裡面包括我們職權調取,或者是都在我們這個不在執法裡面的監控範圍,監督的範圍。它的授權規定是包括所有的,所有的調閱都包括。"},{"start":12617.549,"end":12638.238,"text":"包括剛剛委員所提的這個不需要調取票的職權調取的部分,特定犯罪的部分,也是要在內控的範圍內內控。就同一個內控機制。對對對。好,那沒關係,那我知道你們的想法。那有沒有想過說這些民眾,因為很多案子我們以前也知道,他這案下去查一查之後發現他"},{"start":12639.358,"end":12640.22,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支"},{"start":12651.206,"end":12678.858,"text":"民眾受到檢察官、警察那個職權調閱之後然後後來發現根本就是烏龍一場他覺得權益受到那個侵害或者是像現在檢察官很多有些特定的檢察官會把資料給特定的媒體那如果說查到最後發現他根本構成要件就不符合而牽結或做不起訴處分但是這個資料因為外洩而導致當事人權益受損那你們有沒有想過救濟的方式還是就你就去請民事庭吧"},{"start":12679.438,"end":12696.584,"text":"各位報告通保法關於救濟的話我們在刑訴的416條它有一個準看高的救濟機制倒是司法警察的這部分目前法制上也許還不夠完備檢察官的調取票的部分他就循416的準看高去處理"},{"start":12698.012,"end":12715.128,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12715.508,"end":12717.069,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":12731.806,"end":12754.638,"text":"那我們還是要知道啦,就是說這不是小數目,所以細項還是要給我們,讓我們清楚一下那甚至就是說我很在意的一個就是你調取到的資料是由監控,誰監控或是誰保存那這個機制有沒有做好,其實已經上路幾個月都還沒有出來喔,這個然後我們又花了國家那麼多錢"},{"start":12756.658,"end":12784.01,"text":"這個也不太對,所以這部分麻煩你們能夠給我們比較詳細的資料。報告委員,這個整個大的計畫是編在內政部警政署。那有關這個網路流量的後端的分析,我們是包含在這個大的計畫裡面。那因為現在整個的設備都還沒有完全建置起來,所以目前是都沒有的。只是說在法規上,未來這個都必須要有令狀才能夠來執行。"},{"start":12786.25,"end":12809.362,"text":"那這樣我知道就好那最後我就跟你們提一下就是我希望有幾個東西要麻煩你們回覆一下啦大概就是說我剛剛提到的那個內機內控這個整個配套措施還有調取的比例還有內部審核準博的那個數據希望給我們一下還有調取成功之後呢起訴跟定罪如果有的話"},{"start":12810.282,"end":12815.564,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":12839.291,"end":12868.231,"text":"稍為解釋一下,這麼做掉了多少人後來到底起訴定罪率我希望知道這個那再麻煩一下就是我們剛剛講到的這個內控機制呢你們也要參考一下德國、日本跟美國他們的做法有時候他們引入外部的監控機制這時候人民比較能夠信任再來就是我剛剛提到的網路流量分析系統還有這些通訊監察設備費的預算細目能夠一個月給我就好"},{"start":12869.131,"end":12870.192,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":12886.138,"end":12895.265,"text":"對於吳宗憲委員所提出的相關問題請法務部在一個月或調查局在一個月之內提出具體詳細的書面說明。"},{"start":12926.191,"end":12937.123,"text":"所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束。委員執行時,要求提供的相關資料,會書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交。"},{"start":12938.24,"end":12952.739,"text":"告別委員會及本會令翁曉琳委員執行司所要求的書面內容一併列入公報記錄並請機關答覆委員林思明、楊瓊英所提的書面執行均列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":12953.86,"end":12978.773,"text":"並請相關機關以書面回覆。上午議程討論事項第一至四案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分等事案。報告及詢答完畢。那我們決議均定定期繼續審查。那審查會委員針對上午議程所列討論事項之預算提案,請於12月24日星期二中午12時前提出,預示不受理。"},{"start":12981.41,"end":12997.2,"text":"繼續進行第五案先宣讀法案提案條文宣讀時間預計兩分鐘宣讀條文的時候跟法案無關的列席機關代表可以先行離席"},{"start":13000.685,"end":13021.659,"text":"討論事項第五案外議兼條例委員徐巧興等提案第四條除第二項第三款條文中第161條後增訂第185條之三第二項因而致人於死者第三項因而致人於死者另條文中第333條第一項第二項後增訂第339條第一項第339條之一第一項第339條之二第一項第339條之三第一項"},{"start":13030.625,"end":13052.447,"text":"另第七款條文修正為七犯毒品危害防治條例之罪其餘未修正委員王世堅等提案第四條除第一項第一款修正為一、受有歧途行之執行於六個月其餘未修正委員陳昀臻等提案第四條除第一項第一款及第二款修正為"},{"start":13053.208,"end":13061.928,"text":"一、受有歧途刑罪履行於三個月。二、有圈毀實據且三年內符合承報假釋法定刑期,其餘未修正。"},{"start":13063.377,"end":13090.247,"text":"為王世堅等提案第21條第一項至第三項條文未修正。第四項修正為受刑人依第一項申請返家探視期間每次最多不得超過40小時,但作業成績連續三個月均達法定最高額85%以上者,得延長24小時,其餘條件對象以下條文未修正。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":13109.773,"end":13135.573,"text":"好 謝謝各位條文已經宣讀完畢我們現在進行討論上午議程討論事項第五案病案審查委員徐巧欣等18人彌聚外醫監條例第四條條文修正查案等三案那請問一下要不要進行大體討論不用不用進行大體討論不用的話那我們就直接進行主條的審查"},{"start":13140.455,"end":13146.021,"text":"第四條,條文修正草案,先進行大體討論或審略大體討論後,繼續進行逐條討論。本案部分修正,共計處理兩條。請問第四條部分,各位委員有無意見?"},{"start":13165.629,"end":13170.051,"text":"如果沒有的話就不予修正。"},{"start":13194.268,"end":13202.112,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13215.658,"end":13216.159,"text":"關於王委員及陳委員提案"},{"start":13232.637,"end":13236.581,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":13256.96,"end":13258.421,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":13279.835,"end":13289.922,"text":"維持現行的規定可以讓我們的矯正機關可以讓外遇間的領選有更充足的資料以上先做簡單的說明再請委員報告"},{"start":13294.838,"end":13313.592,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13314.593,"end":13322.54,"text":"偵查新收的案件從109年起有關詐欺案件是居各罪之首,110年達到124,899件,年增率達到18.6%。"},{"start":13330.047,"end":13335.194,"text":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":13347.91,"end":13363.769,"text":"所以法務部提供的資料也顯示說修正實施前每次申請人數大概1500人符合資格者大概1200人獲選分發人數大概200到500人不等但是修正實施後"},{"start":13364.79,"end":13369.994,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":13394.973,"end":13399.696,"text":"獲得外遺宣的一個離選。這會申請到外遺宣。以上。"},{"start":13411.129,"end":13425.096,"text":"謝謝趙委員還有我們列席的官員在場的委員我想當然林士明委員對徐委員的提案保留這表達尊重那其實兩我看他們有互相連署"},{"start":13426.537,"end":13446.907,"text":"互相連署,承運生有提版本,需要經有提版本,然後他們又互相連署,一個積極要件的一個是提升的,其實一個是要放寬的,那似乎這有點衝突,甚至保留我倒覺得是合理,但我必須要講的就是說,我們整個外議間的一個修法的歷史嚴格,"},{"start":13448.227,"end":13462.213,"text":"這個去年大家其實也講得很清楚了只是說政策要去做一個改變的話我到這個地方倒還是要做一點論述所以從1946年第一階段其實我們是在彌補一般監獄擁捨的一個問題"},{"start":13465.714,"end":13469.917,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":13488.227,"end":13507.002,"text":"在1980年到1997年,法官遴選標準將執行徒刑期間從三個月縮短到兩個月,但有增加勞作金的比例。到了第三階段,也就是說2014年去擴大整個外役間處遇的功能,你新增了外部監督的機制,"},{"start":13508.563,"end":13512.887,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":13535.267,"end":13537.468,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":13557.016,"end":13581.596,"text":"這個其實也到符合國民的法律上的一個感情這個到也可以來接受可是我們就是說從整個消極資格的部分我們去做一個緊縮但積極資格部分其實到現在來看的話剛提案人我看的一個說明裡面確實我們一般監獄處理裡面一般的一個監獄變成說人滿為患"},{"start":13584.798,"end":13606.738,"text":"外遇監的部分,你又沒收到人,這個我看署長也非常專業,今天談到這個問題也都很正面,所以今天這樣的一個提案裡面,我倒建議先做以上這樣的一個說明,倒不是媒體特別去提到什麼大咖,我們還知道什麼大咖,我也沒看到什麼大咖。"},{"start":13607.619,"end":13607.639,"text":"鐘昭偉"},{"start":13632.965,"end":13653.811,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麼今天我們審查的草案有三個提案 那麼剛剛國民黨林思明委員已經提到了有關於國民黨徐巧欣委員的部分他是建議就保留不予討論 那我這裡還是要把三個案做個比較 那首先徐巧欣的提案當中我們看到今天司法院的書面報告"},{"start":13654.611,"end":13656.012,"text":"稅務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":13670.982,"end":13671.842,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":13698.769,"end":13706.254,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":13724.446,"end":13740.534,"text":"接下來另外兩個案子就是王委員的跟陳委員的版本這兩個的差異是不大一個是六個月一個是三個月加上剛剛莊委員關心的議題也是本席關心的就是說外界的目的是要幫助受刑人可以早日復歸社會給他適當的調節的過程"},{"start":13742.995,"end":13770.51,"text":"那麼在這兩個三個月跟六個月以及現況這三種情況現況當然腳趾鼠知道嘛現況是怎麼情況那現況如果改成三個月或六個月在實際上外溢間的操作跟我們受刑人的處遇上會有什麼樣的轉變我希望待會法務部能夠做一個說明好那機關的部分能不能就剛委員所提出來的問題再說明署長"},{"start":13775.284,"end":13801.557,"text":"各位委員大家好有關外遇間我們現在是以說有期徒刑如果出犯是要三分之一內犯就是二分之一啦那與我們責任分數每一級的設計的它的規劃如果以判有期徒刑六年來講"},{"start":13802.958,"end":13803.939,"text":"收支部分關於法務部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13820.104,"end":13824.006,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13839.691,"end":13841.593,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13854.178,"end":13860.182,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":13881.537,"end":13887.643,"text":"所謂忽略他的個別需求的廚藝大概也要6個月的時間。要6個月的時間。"},{"start":13892.369,"end":13913.991,"text":"包括說相關的也要考核他有沒有適宜外遇間的作業所以這個期間上有的是三個月或是是超過六個月應該是會希望說能夠以新條例這一種他"},{"start":13915.269,"end":13919.311,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":13936.838,"end":13941.723,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":13958.158,"end":13959.54,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":13974.858,"end":13980.524,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":13996.851,"end":14009.258,"text":"各位委員還有問題要問嗎?我不知道他們有沒有回答到問題。署長你講的我也聽不是很清楚,所以你那個是到底是你是認為說是三個月還是六個月?"},{"start":14011.707,"end":14015.128,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14033.236,"end":14052.274,"text":"一般的監所操作情形非常嚴重,反而外溢監因為110年這個法上路之後造成外溢監申請人數未減到十分之一,符合資格的變成說是非常的少。"},{"start":14053.095,"end":14054.417,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":14071.115,"end":14094.132,"text":"那這個要跟委員特別報告一下我們有考量到說確實貨領選到外遺間新條例之後人數是大幅會有下降所以我們有做一些短期的轉型規劃包括我們已經在上一季開始在台中監獄的複設外遺分間跟屏東監獄的複設外遺分間已經停止分發了"},{"start":14099.816,"end":14102.677,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":14123.061,"end":14132.314,"text":"包括平間也是一樣會收一些比較短期型的因為境外作業的一般受薪人也可以紓解一些監獄的擁擠的情況。"},{"start":14135.345,"end":14156.91,"text":"所以這個我們會做相關的因應所以你要等於說你現在就是把外衣間做一個轉型去把它調配讓一般的這個受刑人也可以到外衣間來去做執行你們現在是做這樣的一個轉型嗎?是不是?是,我們有做規劃是做這樣的規劃嗎?是"},{"start":14159.17,"end":14180.83,"text":"但是我們現在就是說外溢間當然它的立法的目的就是讓我們受刑人能夠逐步來適應社會的生活加速他跟我們社會接軌的一個中間處於的一個情況讓他要出去可以在外溢間先待一下讓他這個慢慢的適應我們未來他出去監獄之後來適應社會的一個狀況"},{"start":14184.642,"end":14205.152,"text":"所以你覺得這樣子會不會就是跟外遺間的設置的目的有所相悖啊?其實我現在主要是說如果說是三個月或六個月這樣子我們今天我們的委員這樣的提案你認為會不會自愛難行啊?還是說你認為說幾個月會真的達到我們設置外遺間的立法的目的?"},{"start":14214.127,"end":14217.709,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14242.438,"end":14247.02,"text":"秦升機關這邊要回答一下這個問題秦升機關這邊要回答一下這個問題秦升機關這邊要回答一下這個問題秦升機關這邊要回答一下這個問題秦升機關這邊要回答一下這個問題"},{"start":14261.86,"end":14290.836,"text":"我想我先讓署長跟同仁先研議一下那我這邊還是先報告一下因為剛才我們為什麼先結論先跟各位來報告說我們還是建議維持現行條文就是因為外溢間作為一個中間儲育的性質剛剛署長特別提到個別化儲育其實我們新收所有人進來之後並不是馬上就可以做還是需要有一段時間的新收期那剛剛有很明確的說大概六個月的期間"},{"start":14291.676,"end":14319.286,"text":"才會開始啟動所謂個別化處遇。那麼作為所謂的中間處遇本來它的性質因為它開始可以反加探視我想這外一間除了比較管理上比較自律之外最重要就是這一個那一個就是說我們逐步好讓這些受刑人從他律慢慢走到自律這樣一個階段那這個中間需要一個矯正、矯制的、教化的過程那我們也需要去觀察這些受刑人的情況"},{"start":14320.286,"end":14321.207,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14341.52,"end":14346.042,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":14359.049,"end":14375.093,"text":"到底是什麼?如果我們還是把它界定成中間處理的話其實現在這個規定相對其實反而是比較合理的所以我們才會說是不是先暫行的來維持現行的條文然後我們會就外溢間的性質跟這個因為我們現在累進處理條例跟這個監獄刑刑法"},{"start":14377.714,"end":14382.655,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":14405.803,"end":14407.11,"text":"其他部分我再請署長來補充跟各位來說明。"},{"start":14411.386,"end":14437.613,"text":"這件要補充一點就是說外衣間其實是作為所謂的中間型處理嘛就是說針對尤其是長期型的這些受刑人他在監獄關了蠻久了一下子把他放回去社會他可能會有適應的問題所以就是給他逐步的先到外衣間先接觸到社會慢慢的他在復歸社會會比較適應比較習慣"},{"start":14440.914,"end":14444.641,"text":"但是我們外遇間會有一個現象就是說"},{"start":14445.967,"end":14449.248,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":14474.758,"end":14476.619,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":14495.066,"end":14500.629,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":14514.309,"end":14520.693,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":14538.985,"end":14554.94,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14555.06,"end":14581.619,"text":"都是兩年以上的那當然相較於原條文跟現在兩個版本常議期的你用三個月用六個月也好那個比例都差距太大所以我想知道的是說就矯正署復歸社會的立場來講那麼不同的議期在這樣的規定之下它產生的差別是什麼還有它佔比多少就是外議監當中目前受外議監處遇的這些人"},{"start":14583.012,"end":14583.873,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":14609.81,"end":14612.753,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14633.644,"end":14646.956,"text":"長一期的用比例來講很合理但是短一期的如果他一年以下你用三分之一就是四個月那如果承運版本就是三個月那這個差別看起來是有不大但是有在實況上怎麼樣"},{"start":14648.78,"end":14671.811,"text":"這個我要跟委員報告一下我們因為有所謂的一年得報假釋才能夠到外議監所以所提到的短一期說六個月啊那個幾乎就是沒有所謂的一年內得報假釋那個問題所謂一年內得報假釋一定原則上是它的刑期超過一年"},{"start":14672.751,"end":14674.332,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":14691.104,"end":14710.946,"text":"這次我補充啊,署長我到這樣覺得啦,你像一般你說短期自由行的部分,你說到外議間其實實力不大。真正啊,外議間啊,它設置的一個目的,我們一直在講說中間處於,因為國外實行的今天幾乎都是中刑犯。"},{"start":14712.401,"end":14712.961,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":14742.116,"end":14746.375,"text":"看臉啦,我是表達尊重啦。看起來就差一個月。"},{"start":14754.742,"end":14755.703,"text":"請問各位委員"},{"start":14784.562,"end":14785.703,"text":"收支部分關於法務部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14809.775,"end":14817.641,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":14838.757,"end":14844.161,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":14865.159,"end":14868.761,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14899.428,"end":14901.232,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":14912.907,"end":14934.24,"text":"陳委員有意見要表示是嗎?我對陳一聰委員所提的這個案子沒意見只是想說提醒一下不要因為我們監獄人滿為患的問題我們要去讓外衣監的壽星人能夠可以出來外面服役"},{"start":14935.501,"end":14961.924,"text":"對於相關的這個檢視的條件我覺得應該還是要一個比較完善的一個對就是在在遴選的過程裡面應該是要比較嚴謹的去審視因為不要因為人滿為患你希望他趕快把一些人往外間去移所以就在審視的過程裡面比較放鬆我覺得這為一個提醒而已謝謝"},{"start":14964.988,"end":14983.165,"text":"我這邊也是對於陳俊永委員的想法我是非常的認同因為如果說我們今天要因應硬體設備的問題要把外遺間的部分適度的擴大但是在審核外遺間可以去外遺間的人的時候那就一定要嚴謹"},{"start":14984.426,"end":15004.923,"text":"你讓這個被可以提出申請者擴大的時候那就要更嚴謹密度更強去審查什麼人適合什麼人不適合那有一些什麼當然這有有那個排除掉一些暴力犯罪或等等這是我覺得這絕對有它的必要性那至於其他的符合規定也要麻煩這邊能夠機關這邊能夠也非常嚴謹的去審核當然不能說因為監獄"},{"start":15011.108,"end":15011.989,"text":"收支部分關於法務"},{"start":15026.323,"end":15028.505,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":15042.974,"end":15048.016,"text":"請問各位委員就第21條的部分有無意見?第21條是只有王世堅等19人提案。"},{"start":15078.361,"end":15081.983,"text":"有關在修正21條第4項其實我們在緩加探視的那個辦法裡面已經有相關的規定"},{"start":15100.694,"end":15125.564,"text":"所以這個部分像這種規定應該不用修訂在本條文外間條例的本條文在我們反加碳式的相關的實施要點裡面都有比如說在什麼情況之下他可以再給他多24小時的時間等等這個部分我們是覺得沒有在這邊增訂的必要好了 接受了"},{"start":15135.273,"end":15164.233,"text":"請問一下林委員中委員是接受法務部的意見接受法務部的意見我要不就說明我們能接受就不依修訂了好 謝謝那陳委員就21條的部分有沒有意見要補充尊重那21條這樣如果說在場三位委員都接受法務部的說法那21條是不是我們就不予修正維持現行條文"},{"start":15165.367,"end":15168.331,"text":"本案諸條審查據處理完畢,作以下宣告本案審查完畢,拟據審查報告提請院會公決"},{"start":15183.343,"end":15207.08,"text":"本案是否需交黨團協商部分應該都不用,因為今天都通過了。約會討論時,由吳昭吉委員中線出席說明。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字授權主席及議事人員處理。上午會議進行到此。下午2點30分於紅樓302會議室繼續開會審查立法院預算。現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"16388","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16388","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e19061065897f096cce1f9dc46489d24178081dad70f87c4692bc0e2bb213bf065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券期貨局、保險局、檢查局收支部分。（僅詢答）\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司。（僅詢答）\n三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管：（僅詢答）\n(一)特別收入基金－金融監督管理基金。\n(二)信託基金－保險業務發展基金。\n【預算提案截止時間：12月19日（四）中午12時】\n【12月18日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-19T08:31:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T12:19:00+08:00","duration":13680,"影片長度":"03:48:00","委員發言時間":"08:31:00 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9,"text":"那跟委員報告我想齁我不是為了證券分析師啊我們只是從整個資本市場的健全性來看那剛剛我們也關注金融業在比如說他的投資的安全性我想我對未來的未來的這個股市呢我們我們就是不做不做過過這個預測就對了主委"},{"start":2618.712,"end":2627.443,"text":"金管會月初公布最新統計外資不只狂賣上市櫃的股票差不多2500億元更終止連續三個月淨匯入轉為淨匯出"},{"start":2633.951,"end":2656.406,"text":"那針對外資賣超臺股並匯出的原因那個政局局副局長表示主要是受到美國總統大選不確定因素的影響那外資落袋為安再加上有一些資金的需求因此進行匯出的動作主委美國大選已經落幕而且臺股大盤指數並沒有出現2022年底下殺4000多點"},{"start":2661.969,"end":2687.505,"text":"的這種狀況那請問你認為外資有沒有短期回補台股資金重新進匯入台灣的機會或是條件有沒有其實從短期而言我們比較不那麼在意我們從長期來看其實外資在台灣的持股占比一直維持一個很穩定當然他們的操作有他自己的目的我想我們對這種比如說幾個月這樣週期的波動我們比較只是密切關切"},{"start":2688.385,"end":2715.61,"text":"我從這邊看不出我們有什麼特別特別明顯的差別那個主委因為媒體有報導說金管會正在研擬換修保險法準備納入新興的議題那聚焦金融科技、永續金融和資本監理等三大項但目前尚未有修法的時程表我請問主委媒體報導金管會打算修法的內容是不是確定的"},{"start":2716.991,"end":2741.486,"text":"主要是我們保險法上次大修應該是民國91年的時候但是各位都知道我們現在我們保險法有兩大部分應該是保險契約法以及保險業法的部分我們過去的大修著重在保險業法的部分保險契約法其實本身還有很多需要被討論的地方我想過去在一二十年來學界有很多的考慮那過去都是一個個修所以我們這次希望有個結構性的修法"},{"start":2741.986,"end":2768.785,"text":"那另外有關業法的部分確實誠如剛剛那個委員所指示的就是包括我們現在金融環境的改變金融科技永續金融還有就是我們現在的資本監理制度都已經跟20年前有重大的不同所以我們覺得一定要修對就是我們要做結構性的修法因為這個那你有沒有時程啊修法有沒有時程我們預計一年的時間來收集各方面一件但是怎麼修其實我們我們不預期一個時間我們希望這次能夠做結構性的所以說"},{"start":2770.054,"end":2776.898,"text":"是不是意味著保險法、修法你說一居一年那有沒有急迫性這個東西其實"},{"start":2778.823,"end":2804.94,"text":"那坦白講委員我們現在的保險法也在持續運作中但是我們的保險市場要持續的發展所以我們這個東西是做一個非常重要的基礎工程所以我們寧可把它修好也不急不急齁主委11月下旬的出席台灣這個保險法學會主辦第10屆兩岸保險法論壇曾提到結構性修法說不定是市場需要的"},{"start":2806.081,"end":2830.08,"text":"那並且將和保險局研究請問主委媒體報導保險法修法的內容是不是和你上個月在論壇後的陳述前後呼應是不是這樣子我想就是兩大部分過去我們保險法學者比較著重的是在保險契約法特別像比如說受益人、要保人還有就是一些相關利害關係人的關係的修改"},{"start":2831.141,"end":2846.757,"text":"還有就是我們契約上面財產保險以及相關很多的內容他們在過去在學理上跟國際上面的一些保險法學理有些不同但是除了這個以外我剛剛跟文報告還有很多是因為我們業法的部分很多都要隨著那個改變其實這兩次是一致的這樣齁"},{"start":2848.098,"end":2875.828,"text":"那未來保險法即將大翻修你認為會朝向你所說的結構性修法來推動嗎是的我想齁其實保險市場也是金融市場非常重要的產業那我們這部保險法如果遠瘦於是民國18年就開始訂定中間雖然經過幾個修正但是我覺得要隨著時間的改變而改變那個主委會不會只有將現行保險法的架構上來推出增減條文的版本是不是這樣子"},{"start":2876.548,"end":2902.794,"text":"其實我們現在保險法條文算是精簡才100多條我想像我們保險市場整個環境的改變業法的部分其實有很多需要被調整的地方主委因為從第10屆保險法論壇媒體轉述你參加時所有的內容可以看出與會學者包括過去身為學者的你對現行保險法這個法規以及主管機關的看法與態度"},{"start":2903.934,"end":2925.57,"text":"再加上你認為現在保險法、修法都是應急式而反應式的修法遇到什麼問題修什麼比較容易顧此失比的很可惜那請問主委採取結構性修法是不是能夠完全避免再度出現應急式、反射式的這個修法的缺點"},{"start":2926.771,"end":2947.577,"text":"委員會這樣講是因為有時候我們社會上有些突發的情形就要立刻來改變那是必然但是就是說這樣的改變常常會讓會可能考慮沒那麼周延所以我才會想說我們除了日常的解決問題的修法我們還是要持續但是我們希望有一次有結構性的調整把過去我們整個保險市場"},{"start":2948.177,"end":2972.055,"text":"未來若有一個至少未來二三十年需要的這個架構我們能夠在這裡一次把它能夠做一個周延的考量主委啊由於保險法修法涉及主管法規的機關那訂定保險契約的各方當事人那請問主委修法姿勢體大未來修法的方向你認為能夠重新喚起外商保險公司來台設立的意願嗎"},{"start":2972.936,"end":2998.903,"text":"我想這是很多元面向外商會不會來是看我們市場的發展當然我們如果做得很健全市場蓬勃發展自然容易吸引人家過來涉及相關的因為你要是修不好的話變成會成為這些外商保險公司加速退出台灣的一個催化劑會不會如果是不好的我們不會修啦對我們只會朝好的方向修好謝謝謝謝委員的指點謝謝好謝謝林德夫委員"},{"start":3000.758,"end":3004.061,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會彭金榮主委委員早主委早"},{"start":3026.848,"end":3044.345,"text":"這個我剛剛聽到你跟林委員的詢答你剛剛有提到說可能是因為這個美國降息一碼不符合市場的預期可是我最近這幾個月看到的都是大家都是預期要降息一碼而且那個他們的那個"},{"start":3046.146,"end":3071.315,"text":"他們那個巴奧爾這兩個月也是說就降息一碼甚至一個月前還有人在討論說也有可能不降息那所以降息一碼我個人是覺得應該是蠻符合預期的而且這個地方是跟年底作戰我覺得跟應該有些關係因為美國人會計年度是到國曆年聖誕節那你"},{"start":3074.85,"end":3094.866,"text":"現在看本來降息應該是對股市有利的事情那當然你也可以把它講說就是因為降息不符合預期應該多降一點那降不夠所以大家失望性的拋出我的看法是比較接近這個有可能是年末的作帳那在台灣以及在整個東亞股市外資的撤出"},{"start":3096.847,"end":3115.981,"text":"聽起來金額很大了但是其實對他投資總金額來講的比例也是不大但是那個也是應該是作帳的需求這是我的看法的想法給你參考看看那可能這個所以過去狀況都是類似的到了年底接近聖誕節的時候都會出現一些這樣子的狀況那再來就是說要請教的就是說"},{"start":3124.249,"end":3146.863,"text":"我們最近我看到了媒體的報導這當然不是跟金融會直接相關的關係但是老是提到老年人被詐騙那很嚴重所以其實在黃主委的時代他對於這個老年人的這個金融安全他是有特別要求的對各金融機構那這一部分你的做法怎麼樣你的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":3148.566,"end":3168.444,"text":"這個確實其實我覺得老年實際上是一個不是一個特定它是一個漸進的過程有些比如說初老還有一些是末老這些大概是因為這樣來看當然比如說尤其現在台灣高齡化社會有些我們現在的所謂初老像比如說現在很多拿那個老人證65歲的人其實他非常非常正常"},{"start":3169.125,"end":3196.074,"text":"所以我覺得說要有更細緻的做法那對於逐漸老化尤其很多的金融商品是很長期的這部分我們就要考慮到不是購買當時還有後面像比如很多信託的商品就是來做這些事情還有像保險也要考慮到這個問題所以我覺得未來要營造一個所謂金融友善除了保護它以外那我們會對有些它的權益我們可以做更細緻的規劃是因為我看到這個統計數字齁"},{"start":3199.156,"end":3217.91,"text":"這個113年以來當然你剛剛說是一個逐漸老化的過程也很難用客觀的數字去評量說你的心智到底是不是有逐漸退化的過程但是總是要抓一個客觀的年齡層過去我們大概是抓70或是6560也有65也有"},{"start":3219.691,"end":3231.966,"text":"那現在問題是我看到113年以來無論是受到詐騙或是遭遇到金融消費糾紛的那個比例都有在增高的局勢那金融消費糾紛比例增高是什麼狀況呢"},{"start":3233.238,"end":3250.877,"text":"我們有請那個評議中心也有做一些了解確實前面幾年有升高最近是比較平緩就是那個金融詐騙還有就是高齡的來申訴的部分主要申訴大概都是申訴哪一方面的內容這個應該說沒關係評議這邊也可以幫忙回答"},{"start":3254.3,"end":3280.686,"text":"文文我們去了解目前申訴案件有些是信用卡消費貸償的部分信用卡部分也是一個重點還有保險的部分的一些信用卡消費的貸償是什麼意思他應該是說整個消費款項的話就是說他有可能會先付就是有些東西信用卡他會先給他一筆錢然後接下來的話就是他先去還一筆錢給信用卡先繳信用卡的一個款項那後來就形成一些糾紛發生怎麼樣為什麼這樣會發生糾紛呢"},{"start":3283.314,"end":3306.676,"text":"他本身的話應該因為信用卡的部分的話他們有就是我可以跟你報告一下因為信用卡的時候我們是消費之後才會去繳款嘛對不對對但有些可能會是先預繳一些款項給信用卡公司所以目前的話我們在處理這一塊就會比較嚴謹一點因為他可能會先去付一筆錢然後再因為我自己也去那這樣子如果我先預繳錢給消費信用卡公司他會不會信用卡公司變成在接受存款啊"},{"start":3308.141,"end":3335.608,"text":"那是不是在經營銀行業它不是吸收存款它是說比如說我今天可能要出國的話我可能會先繳一些錢就是可能交易的一個一角啦那一角的話後面就有一些糾紛在那這部分也有企平益中益在做一些處理啦那也跟委員報告事實上整個整個平穩在觀察說整個申訴案件那個比例確實有委員講的沒錯有提高啦但是跟分母也有點關係因為112年的時候因為那時候還有一點點防疫保障所以分母比較大那這塊我們會持續來做一個"},{"start":3337.188,"end":3354.148,"text":"我要跟評議中心講幾個我個人認為的觀念也是給主委參考第一個你不要常常講說我這個評議反正如果沒有達成結論或是怎麼樣只是給法院參考你可以再去法院搞我是來自法院的你那個評議會讓這個"},{"start":3358.604,"end":3381.917,"text":"法院會有可能會有一部分的影響另外一點就是你會讓相對的金融機構他就有恃無恐他覺得他平行東西就挺我那我要跟你說就一個消費者而言尤其是老年消費者而言他無論是在金融、法律、契約能力各方面的社會資歷上面明顯是不對等的"},{"start":3382.662,"end":3403.07,"text":"你的金融機構無論是錢、人、法律能力、契約能力什麼都高於消費者一大截所以人照理來講是要義強扶弱這樣才有公道那當然不是說我們就是可以閉著眼睛說法律怎麼規定我不管不是這樣"},{"start":3404.332,"end":3413.408,"text":"但是你一定要常常記得這個因為兩邊的身份是不相當的無論是哪一個位階都不相當所以你們在做這個評議的時候"},{"start":3415.307,"end":3436.343,"text":"我覺得這一點要是值得參考一定要把這個東西記在心裡再來就是我們希望說我以前一直提一個觀念但是到現在都一直沒有改不要拿這些金融機關的錢金融這些公司的錢他們該付的錢另外的去嘛不要直接拿他們錢來編你們的預算或是放到你們的基金裡面來"},{"start":3438.246,"end":3464.122,"text":"國家的總預算那麼大那個大水庫理論你進到國家其他的公庫裡面去你再從國家這邊拿錢來編預算來弄這個評議不會老是被人家講說你看你們就是拿人家這個金融機構的錢啊說你們的評議只是公正性會受到質疑吧我講的這樣子的概念當然是講了很多年但是都一直沒有完成可能是會計科目或怎麼樣的問題"},{"start":3466.096,"end":3476.673,"text":"如果你們願意這樣做我們願意挺你們啊我們何必為了那一兩億元然後去背一個這樣子的罵名呢背一個這樣子的懷疑呢這是不值得啦這個給你參考謝偉我剛剛簡單回應一下就是說"},{"start":3481.38,"end":3509.639,"text":"我在評議中心擔任過兩屆的董事一屆的評議委員我們的評議有個很重要的概念叫做公平合理原則的適用它會推翻很多法律上面的規定所以過去這個東西是它很重要的一個武器就是說法規雖然這樣規定我覺得不符合公平公平合理它就可以做這件事情我想這個我們來落實就是每個人的經驗不太相同當然會來到我們立法委員的辦公室陳情的都是比較極端的案子可是我來我看到了有一些評議"},{"start":3510.64,"end":3514.205,"text":"就我以法律的經驗跟我過去的工作經驗我看起來是不公道"},{"start":3515.675,"end":3541.189,"text":"所以我可能看到的都是因為採樣會偏頗今天如果公正處理了或是他覺得滿意他就不會來了他就覺得他受到委屈才會到立法院辦公室來申訴但是我看到的幾個案件裡面我都就是沒有採取這樣的原則所以我今天才會來提醒主委來提醒這個評議這一邊要注意這個問題我以前在當法官的時候剛開始當法官的時候"},{"start":3543.227,"end":3565.585,"text":"陳靜遠說那種非常輕微的案件啊我講說這這麼輕微的案件這個有什麼好爭的啊這個就趕快給他處理結果當時我的神敗我的庭長就跟我講說對你一個法官來講這是一個非常輕微的案件沒有錯但是這個當事人可能他這一輩子只有這個案件所以如果我很述述而且沒有去思慮很周圍的去處理"},{"start":3566.713,"end":3582.189,"text":"當事人他的不滿意可能是一輩子的而不會覺得說就醫生啊看感冒大家都是一樣這個感冒這個流行性感冒你也感冒他也感冒就趕快3秒鐘5秒鐘就開個藥給你病人的感覺是生病的是我啊難過的是我啊"},{"start":3583.052,"end":3584.393,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":3601.58,"end":3623.917,"text":"對於這種如果鄰國本來跟我們是有在貿易上面有一些競爭或是互補關係的國家的這個貨幣如果有巨額的波動的時候是不是也應該要有以待之呢那當然尤其像比如說韓國跟我們這麼近很多這麼密切像韓國發生這件事情的時候我們都高度的警戒當時比如聽到他戒嚴他整個都非常的"},{"start":3624.497,"end":3635.526,"text":"那還好是他6個小時就結束是那慢慢就變成是一個他們政爭的問題是那否則的話其實上這個對我們的影響我們都應該隨時非常密切的關注好謝謝你齁繼續加油齁謝謝謝謝委員謝謝吳平樂委員齁接下來我們請賴世鮑委員"},{"start":3650.02,"end":3654.204,"text":"謝謝主席有請金管會的彭主委彭主委委員早早啊你早我想美國人都很關心昨天明明美國是降息的一般來講降息股市是正面翻硬的結果它暴跌了一千多點"},{"start":3673.9,"end":3690.336,"text":"你能不能以你的專業跟你的資訊比較多你能不能告訴我們主要的原因到底是什麼一個原因就好不會講很多一個主要是什麼就我剛才有提到當然這個股市是很敏感就是說"},{"start":3691.877,"end":3714.906,"text":"本來預期我們的降息速度會快一點但是呢這樣那個降息大家預期會放緩那我是看到這樣的當然有很多原因比如說包括未來川普政策的不確定性剛剛還有委員講的年底的這些作帳畢竟聖誕節很多的問題都是很複雜的你講聖誕節難道這些投資人都放下去了嗎就是他們很多像比如說我們到年底的時候他們就會開始"},{"start":3715.786,"end":3732.114,"text":"開始放假這當然也是一個說法我想股市是非常敏感就像我們今天看其實也不是只有一個地方反映它有些地方也是有不同的反應有一種講法說其實這次降一碼市場預期就是一碼"},{"start":3733.294,"end":3741.86,"text":"跟市場預期沒有什麼不一樣就是一碼但是大家會看到明年有人提一個東西叫點陣圖知道嗎點陣圖裡面從點陣圖看出來說未來如果按照這樣來講未來"},{"start":3749.486,"end":3767.141,"text":"應該是要降四碼結果變成只降兩碼這個你同意不同意當然是很多種說法啦我可以說有一種說法就是本來預期就是說應該會很快一點但是未來到明年大概也是會比較放緩尤其未來像我們上次在針對比如說美國未來的政策在報告的時候也有說"},{"start":3767.922,"end":3782.57,"text":"其實雖然這樣預期但是未來以他很多政策說按照媒體這樣講的話比如關稅拉高通膨增加這時候你說要這樣其實就可能是有點困難就是說很多的原因混雜在一起CPI阿美國的通膨其實是嚴重的啦"},{"start":3784.071,"end":3808.649,"text":"到現在為止尤其加上大家看到川普會來加關稅嘛川普講過一句話嘛他說他最愛的一個字就是要TELIF就是關稅嘛他最愛關稅嘛最愛關稅嘛他跟人家談的交易交易的密碼就是關稅嘛那當然也不排除也不排除市場呢是華爾街都支持川普的嘛大家都知道"},{"start":3809.389,"end":3811.271,"text":"做球給川普啊現在不能漲太高啊開始壓一壓啊等到川普一來的話你看一直漲大家都預估啊川普上來其實股市會漲的"},{"start":3821.758,"end":3849.146,"text":"這個你同意吧當然這也是一種說法很多種說法當然我想華爾街本來就是是一個有買有賣反正這個是一個市場我想我們華爾街挺川普是對的嗎當然外界是說因為因為未來川普會鬆綁金融業的一些的所以大家預期說還有對很多的產業所以等於是等於是大家來看的話就美股川普上台之後應該是"},{"start":3850.686,"end":3851.747,"text":"掌勢可期"},{"start":3868.655,"end":3891.968,"text":"加密貨幣跑這個也是原因之一我想因為如果從整個交易量來看的話整個資本市場來看的話現在交易量當然還是一個相對比較低還是個位數當然以他的速度來看確實引人矚目比如說現在往那個虛擬資產方向移動的速度確實是因為他基期比較低但是從個整體來看他還是一個比較低的水位"},{"start":3892.648,"end":3910.863,"text":"而且它越來越多的開始商品慢慢用降幅貨幣了對我們也有觀察到這樣的一個發展好我們來看這個跟你有關係現在有幣多債權很強手這個這裡面來講就等於說用USDT"},{"start":3918.865,"end":3947.602,"text":"貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達幣貸達�"},{"start":3948.221,"end":3976.456,"text":"這個你們管不管啊這個是所謂的DEFI的部分必然他如果說是一個在虛擬世界可以交易的對象自然有人欠有人要還就是就像我們比如股票有借券跟借那個就是那個那個概念是一樣因為所以說呢他沒有問題這管不管啊現在的話我們的交易你們管不管請問我們現在在交易你是我們現在說按照我們的那個VASB的部分我們這DEFI的部分我們現在有"},{"start":3977.136,"end":3980.577,"text":"不要跟我講賣死婆婆那個是防洗錢的跟這個關係不大現在來講的話因為他推出的我表沒有秀出來這大家Google一下看得到嗎他這裡面都他是保本穩賺就是你只要把錢給他比如說45天或者是50天60天他就給你4.5%保本穩賺這個東西"},{"start":4007.857,"end":4030.204,"text":"現在的話就是說跟我們報告就是我們現在確實我們台灣現在已經剛剛講跟Vespa有關是因為現在我們真的有這樣的一個比如說交易平台也有這些轉換商這些我們這些我們所謂的虛擬資產服務業者現在正在經營我們就算我們還是可以在買賣這些幣有買賣以後呢他就衍生出很多的比如說他的衍生出的一些金融行為像借貸"},{"start":4031.444,"end":4056.107,"text":"這個就是其中的一個那就是批土批啊也不是批土就等於說在那個某種程度是這個意思啊怎麼不是呢請問他到底你們管不管這個到底管不管現在我們的交易的部分我們現在是你看到這個現象沒有這個是很普遍在那個對對對然後你不管我們現在是因為他整個交易我們是有納管的啦"},{"start":4057.432,"end":4060.133,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案"},{"start":4078.586,"end":4097.298,"text":"這個穩賺不賠的利率耶雖然短時間不高4.5有的高一點點5.5還要更高的啊這個東西很危險的這種東西他就跟供需有關我跟委員報告就是我們現在明年6月我們在我們現在正在嚴定這個心理財產管理專法的部分我們就會把define的部分呢會把它規範進去"},{"start":4099.11,"end":4126.163,"text":"所以你們要管這個是未來一定是變成是一定是必然我們看國際的趨勢就是說他會衍生出來一些交易那你管的方式就是讓他基本上他是合法的是不是我們通常合法的前提就是你要合規啊就是前面有一些規矩他合不合規請問他合不合規有些規矩啊我們要定出來那如果合規的話第三方支付比如說這某一個平台"},{"start":4127.981,"end":4141.414,"text":"我買東西我放一萬塊在哪裡我用了兩千買東西剩八千八千他拿去投資他給我固定的利率4%可以嗎這個你說不行啊第三萬支付過去你就說不行啊這個就逼逼託你就可以這奇怪的咧"},{"start":4149.382,"end":4176.023,"text":"我沒有說可以我只是說我們未來的專法的時候因為這個是全世界在演化中的東西我們在專法的時候我們會把未來的像比如說這所有的虛擬資產的相關的那個課題考慮進來我想這部分什麼時候可以出來啦這個專法什麼時候出來我們現在草案正在討論中什麼時候出來我們預期是1月的時候會開始公聽然後6月的時候我們會送進行政院6月送進行政院關於關於什麼"},{"start":4177.524,"end":4181.808,"text":"關於所謂的虛擬資產服務以及那個投資人保護的專法"},{"start":4184.37,"end":4210.581,"text":"虛擬資產的交易吧有沒有交易當然交易是其中一部分交易還有它的機構管理機構管理消費者保護消費者保護應該是交易人保護這個1月份開始公定會6月份送到行政院我們的就等於說那你希望行政院什麼時候可以出來這我沒辦法希望我當然希望假設我們送過去的話還有社會的共識第三方支付呢還是不行"},{"start":4212.062,"end":4219.931,"text":"因為現在第三方支付是訴法部在主管的業務啊所以你不管不是不管就是我們管的是我們自己的彭主委你要注意喔"},{"start":4220.979,"end":4241.165,"text":"全台灣人民不管什麼第三方支付不管這個緣的緣的大家只要看到錢啊錢啊在交易啊大家認為你要管喔這也是我們要特別說明你要管啊錢只要錢你上山你要管啊這也要特別說明了不是所有錢都是歸金管會我是告訴你老百姓都認為來來來第三個我們看一個你們最近公佈一個東西好奇怪喔全台灣人的人均存款欸"},{"start":4251.3,"end":4253.663,"text":"喔 台北市才有錢 我都不知道一個人喔 一個人喔 台北市存款現金存款925萬台北市的 一人喔"},{"start":4264.386,"end":4269.169,"text":"如果夫妻兩個人就1800那第二名是新竹市518萬第三名是嘉義市249萬第四名在台中市213萬"},{"start":4283.068,"end":4299.103,"text":"這個數字到底是怎麼統計的有沒有包括外幣存款臺北市這個如果大家聽的話大家很挫折的我不知道這一座各位你們臺北市的人存款一個人喔如果你家裡四個人的話你就要3600萬喔你就要快4000萬喔喔 這個東西這你統計是 你統計好 中國會統計好"},{"start":4310.559,"end":4323.418,"text":"委員提到就是說我們下次如果有類似的數字我們可以公佈各式各樣的數據那這樣會比較容易不用導致這樣的一個比如說解讀上面的困擾不是 我就問你有沒有包括外幣存款 有沒有"},{"start":4324.532,"end":4339.621,"text":"這我要回去瞭解一下啊你不要去按哪一位現在可以馬上瞭解嗎那我們知道一下我們瞭解完馬上跟委員報告你們為什麼不用中位數呢我們就跟郭泰民平均去跟張作某平均這個沒有道理啊"},{"start":4340.934,"end":4344.155,"text":"對不對我跟張忠偉平均一個人900多萬臺北市請問各位大家在看這個直播臺北市民平均一個人的存款現金存款喔現金喔925萬喔我不知道我們主席議員有沒有這麼多喔925萬喔一個人喔"},{"start":4365.862,"end":4372.466,"text":"一個人平均在銀行裡面喔銀行局要不要講一下這書是怎麼來的啊你們公佈的欸我不知道為什麼不用中位數啊來講一下為什麼不用中位數啊"},{"start":4382.349,"end":4404.587,"text":"沒有沒有我想我們查證一下啦今天就是假設說未來假設真的是我們在出示這些數據的時候確實有不同的參數有不同的含義啦我想這部分我們講我覺得應該是莊惠素啦因為台北市大老闆太多了啦郭台銘一年的股不只或是張忠謀他們大老闆每年的股率都幾十億元平均"},{"start":4406.048,"end":4407.209,"text":"因為談到網營啊也是你們想想的政績之一啊"},{"start":4428.581,"end":4452.508,"text":"每一次最高5萬每天最高10萬每月最高20萬可是你們有一個辦法喔這個辦法就是根據安控基準第8條第二款第4小目跟第5小目說預定的話可以把20萬提高但是但是銀行都告訴因為這是有人來跟我告狀的"},{"start":4457.568,"end":4460.409,"text":"報告委員沒有這個時間上面的限制如果要提高的話是認證的方式要提高平均多久時間"},{"start":4488.217,"end":4498.487,"text":"這個應該 如果你約定了之後 因為現在有一些防詐的議題所以大概是兩天啦兩天喔對 兩天才能申請來跟我高中的客戶說他要提高為25萬對方告訴他 我不要講那些銀行的我都可以給你講銀行 不會公開不要講他說要一年"},{"start":4509.298,"end":4510.799,"text":"我比較在意那個臺北市居然一個人平均有900多萬突襲兩個人1800 怕死人這裡面看只有賴慧營有"},{"start":4536.943,"end":4538.745,"text":"有請主委還有王平康局局長主委早安"},{"start":4560.066,"end":4576.705,"text":"那個今天要跟你討論的是租賃公司他的一個套利的問題還有租賃公司的一個融資的問題還有你如何管理租賃公司這些問題那事實上在這一陣子我們看到有幾個委員不管是"},{"start":4577.846,"end":4594.818,"text":"王世堅委員、郭國文委員他也針對這些事情跟今晚會做一個探討在這裡我要先請問銀行局局長這個主任公司貴不貴你管他是銀行還是只是一個法人機構"},{"start":4598.155,"end":4615.45,"text":"目前我們定義它還只是一般的法人機構那我們現在正在考慮先把它納到金保法裡面針對消費者權益的部分來管理多久會把它納入這個部分的話議期多久會納入"},{"start":4616.55,"end":4641.71,"text":"我們現在所有的法治規定都已經準備好了我們只要先預告完預告那個結束我們就可以開始做這個時候在法治上面可以預告啦這個預告的時程大概會放在什麼時候因為我們現在還要還要那個那立法院還要溝通還有就是因為可能還要再開過幾次公聽會以後才才能夠要開過幾次的公聽會我們上次有開過一個下次還要兩次的公聽會"},{"start":4642.27,"end":4664.068,"text":"還有兩次的公聽會那這兩次的公聽會你會給他壓縮到什麼樣的一個時間呢沒有他只要是通過以後大家有共識以後我們現在法制作業都準備好我們公告以後一定的時間就會實施了我希望你可以切切的給本席一個就是時間點那你是三個月還是半年我覺得這個是非常重要的"},{"start":4668.284,"end":4684.973,"text":"法規的話我們的預告是60天假設我們現在從今天是60天準備兩個月但我覺得最快的時間從預告開始應該4到5個月應該就可以上路那有沒有辦法就是說在5個月內那我們把它完成"},{"start":4685.458,"end":4702.117,"text":"就是我們先要完成假設溝通程序結束的話我們五個月之內是可以完成好 謝謝我想這個我們要正式主任業在監管套利的一個問題我們當然非常清楚就是說主任公司他其實是根據公司法他所設立的合法設立的"},{"start":4703.358,"end":4709.424,"text":"最重要的業務還是放在租借設備還有工具融資給企業或個人從上面整理出來的資料"},{"start":4718.172,"end":4734.28,"text":"前面在上一頁我們看到了就是說我們三家上市的主任公司裡頭不管是中租那個育融還是那個核能他在個人的車輛的一個融資占比"},{"start":4734.62,"end":4763.075,"text":"都佔了他的業務比跟華人的融資幾乎是快要非常接近了一個43一個53那尤其就是說他其實最主要的業務是在中小企業的一個融資可是之前我們非常在意的就是先買後戶這個個人的一個車資方面他接近了一半的一個規模業務的一個規模那所以在這裡特別跟那個"},{"start":4763.855,"end":4789.174,"text":"主委強調的就是說他其實這個三家公司他們的企業規模占總體的租賃業的一個規模是90%這已經相當多囉是他們是三個很大的租賃公司是啊那這個比銀行更靈活的方式借給消費者那我們又沒有辦法去保護消費者剛才銀行局的局長講得非常清楚"},{"start":4790.182,"end":4816.528,"text":"他講什麼那個主委你有沒有聽到就是我們會用金融消保法來納管會納管對一定會納管這要經過剛剛的法規的這個算不算是普惠金融當然普惠金融是看從他的比如他的服務面其實假設其實我們必須講融資公司在過去對在企業金融部分他是其實扮演非常非常的一個也是有他一定的角色跟貢獻當然"},{"start":4817.328,"end":4838.83,"text":"當然但最近衍生的問題都是出在個人金融就比如說這個跟車貸或是先買後付這些的內容而來所以這要切開就是說其實他們不是所有的業務都是我們現在未來納管金融消費者保護法管的就是個人業務就是法人業務是不會不會受到影響的所以我們也是會加強溝通"},{"start":4840.211,"end":4864.311,"text":"那那個主委先生在本席在跟你探討的第7波我們的打黃那事實上我們慢慢的有調整到就是說整個就是房地產慢慢歸向一個比較正常的一個狀況那如果在銀行法第72支2條裡頭規定的時候就是公股銀行他那個不可以換款不動產也不能超過"},{"start":4865.572,"end":4885.692,"text":"不能超過就是存款的餘額的30%可是融資公司在這一個這一個72支2條他其實找到了一個破洞他如何去就是說他形同去規避就是銀行法他把借來的錢然後借給那個建設公司那你怎麼看勒"},{"start":4886.152,"end":4904.392,"text":"其實我們在12月13號的時候我們就發了一個函給銀行工會要求他們做到像剛剛委員所報告這件事情第一個如果說第一個他一定要做好貸後管理比如說你的用途跟你的貸款的目的應該是要相符銀行要去做這樣的一個勾結"},{"start":4905.433,"end":4914.176,"text":"二、一般放款流入不動產,銀行要納入不動產風險管理機制,也要記錄信用管制範圍,這樣就會納入這個規定。二、未來的這個部分應該要做好控管。我想我們對這個問題,我們會避免成為說,假設我們在管理銀行風險的時候的漏洞。"},{"start":4934.122,"end":4948.736,"text":"你這個12月13號你提出來這個是行政命令那是不是你會再討論就是說租賃公司專法的一個就是討論啊現在是這樣我們設定一個專法的討論是不是會更周全"},{"start":4949.056,"end":4978.428,"text":"我們是兩路並進第一個我們是希望說因為我們的專法從民國85年開始討論到現在中間有很多的分歧很多的不同的意義所以這代表說整合是比較困難但是我們覺得說如果要解決這個問題專法也是個方法所以我們已經委託委外研究我們也正在做這個專法的研究但是呢專法要通過要經過一段可能不知道多久的時間但我覺得這種空窗不能等所以我們用金寶法來做一個納管"},{"start":4979.348,"end":4984.391,"text":"二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會主管中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有"},{"start":5008.644,"end":5025.514,"text":"這個有多嚴重他其實主任公司他佔了3%然後你的23家信用合作社才佔了2%這個其實我們都是從各種數據裡頭是要跟這個主委去探討就是說主任公司其實在整個市場上"},{"start":5028.015,"end":5048.282,"text":"市場上佔了一個很大的比例那如果我們還無法可管的話那這算不算是對窮人的普惠金融那我就覺得說金管會是不是有懈責呢主委你的看法其實我剛剛跟委員報告過我們是希望同一個行為同一個風險同一個管理"},{"start":5049.042,"end":5069.335,"text":"那假設比如說融資行為已經做到比如說類金融的這樣服務而且呢他真的對消費者有產生這樣一個這個這個負面的影響我們當然就像我剛剛跟委員報告了我們還是希望站在保護消費者弱勢的角度由公權力介入所以我們現在已經在積極在做這件事"},{"start":5069.795,"end":5071.136,"text":"在銀行裏做得非常好"},{"start":5095.336,"end":5118.055,"text":"那主任公司你看起來就是有一點就是非常的有有這個這個說起來就是這樣子就是說其實他看起來這個整體而言這個資料來源是從中都那個中低那個中租低合這裡頭做出來的其實我覺得他這一張圖裡頭某種程度"},{"start":5120.077,"end":5121.959,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":5141.761,"end":5169.424,"text":"有很大的不同銀行我沒有對他的機構做管理比如說你的資本要求、內控、內機這些都有要求所以他要執行這些東西他成本也比較高但他安全性比較高對民眾保障比較多但是有些人確實他的債券條件沒有那麼好的時候或他的很多的彈性不夠他就會跑去另外一個管道這個管道並不是說都是不好的他是不同的債券只是說我們不管怎麼樣契約公平公平對待每一個客戶我想這是一個基本的道理"},{"start":5170.304,"end":5190.741,"text":"所以我們才會進行這樣的納管主委我想就是說後續的就是說不管是不是比照金融機構他公開他的財務的一個資訊還是說主任公司他的一個信手目前的一個進度那最重要的我要跟主委做一個要求"},{"start":5191.441,"end":5220.461,"text":"租賃公司的一個授信的守則如何落實這一個穿透式的一個管理就是從你金管會你去管銀行然後銀行再來管租賃這個有沒有辦法做到你在未來有沒有辦法做到我們現在已經有這個東西我們再把它強化就可以了就是實際上應該都有這個部分我們已經透過銀行的授信跟那個租賃公司之間有一個管理包括我剛剛跟委員報告12月13號那個那個規定也是"},{"start":5221.223,"end":5234.771,"text":"好,所以你逐步在講了嘛,所以我們也看到中租他在那個上個禮拜他發表,他發布了一個那個重訊,他講說他的董事會已經跟兆豐銀行簽訂了一個65億元的聯合授信合約"},{"start":5240.287,"end":5250.73,"text":"那個主委我看到這一個信息其實我是更害怕他等於就是說他把這個兆豐抓進來就是他變成本來沒白變有白喔"},{"start":5251.96,"end":5275.167,"text":"本來看起來我們還可以就是去質疑他的一個信用現在變成是有信用的所以這個是我們比較擔心的一個議題所以你要加快腳步這個我們因為他其實中蘇本身也是一個上市公司他有他的業務他跟銀行做一個融資只要不要流入剛才講的我們所要所要擔心的那個範圍這是他正常業務的範圍"},{"start":5276.067,"end":5297.672,"text":"好各位再回到上個月就是我們國民黨的委員有召開一個融資公司納入軍保法的一個協調會那我要知道就是說這個協調會裡頭軍管會有沒有受到施壓其實這不是施壓就是說我們要溝通因為我們要請把他們納管的時候他們有疑議那我們想說我們盡量解釋清楚所以剛才講過"},{"start":5298.812,"end":5308.542,"text":"我們當然是希望盡快實施若一一趕快來跟我們溝通我們希望說這個比如這個這個協調或公聽會趕快開始大家有什麼問題我們把它溝通完畢以後可以及早上路啊"},{"start":5309.167,"end":5335.527,"text":"是,所以沒有施壓我覺得這是溝通的一部分那就是說溝通的一部分所以我們這個金融消費者的一個保護法我們會加速是是,我們是希望趕快因為社會對這個東西的期待比較高現在是沒有施壓的話你就會加速嘛,對不對他有一定的程序啦,我想我還是尊重所有的程序那你就會照著這個程序,然後會再加速當然,我們能加速我們盡量加速但是我們社會要有共識還是很重要"},{"start":5336.107,"end":5361.492,"text":"社會共識是是謝謝好謝謝那我希望就是金管會在一個月內就是對於就是會中討論就是融資公司納入那個金保法的一個協調會裡頭的一個討論事項你是不是有一些比較具體的看法在一個月內提出一個書面的報告給分析沒問題我們盡快提供謝謝謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝那會員委員接著我們請王洪威委員"},{"start":5373.046,"end":5399.172,"text":"謝謝主席請那個彭主委我想未來就是我們金管會的一些相關的業務有很多有挑戰性那當然最近大家比較聚焦於這個朱令公司我這邊最近可能會有一些就是也是有那種集體受害的"},{"start":5399.952,"end":5406.455,"text":"因為等於說對於資訊整個不對等那麼造成這些比較屬於在融資市場比較邊緣性的客戶他們一個受害的一個狀況那另外我想請教就是說因為我們馬上要審金管會的預算說實在金管會的預算也不到20億他其實金額是很少"},{"start":5423.982,"end":5449.304,"text":"但是金管會的業務、法規、政策卻非常重要我今天要就教於主委的就是大家都知道美國大選已經結束川普當選川普當選對全世界的當然地緣政治、經濟、金融市場都會有很多很多的挑戰所以我在這邊想請教一下主委"},{"start":5449.864,"end":5451.526,"text":"在川普當選之後因為他對於虛擬貨幣極為友善而且顯而易見的未來在美國作為一個金融的領導的市場他會有非常多的大的改變"},{"start":5466.779,"end":5480.455,"text":"所以最近比特幣就一路的飆漲而且美國的上市公司金融機構大家也爭相的去投入投資有關於虛擬貨幣的業務或者是相關的服務"},{"start":5485.973,"end":5513.026,"text":"像川普包含他支持說要國家建立國家戰略的比特幣的儲備當然這個部分我應該是問中央銀行那還有呢包括他也對新的金管他們美國證管會SEC的主席也換下來是比較保守的那上來的就是處於比較開放而且呢是幣圈中的人士"},{"start":5514.026,"end":5520.508,"text":"所以在這樣的一個趨勢下在過去我們也曾經關心我們金管會有關於這個虛擬貨幣的相關的專法那我想請問一下主委這些相關的專法還有政策目前你們的進度是什麼"},{"start":5534.293,"end":5559.95,"text":"還有會不會隨著川普當選我剛剛講美國的政策出現極大改變我們會不會加快進度或者更加的鬆綁跟委員報告一下就是說其實我們對於虛擬資產是按部就班的在執行剛剛的話我覺得我們是非常的謹慎但是呢我們是這個態度其實我們也參考了我們周圍一些國家的制定比如說像對這個東西"},{"start":5561.651,"end":5589.68,"text":"我們倒不會因為一個國家加速而改變我們是想要參考比如說其他國家的法制作業的時候我們來做一個因為畢竟這都新的東西美國他現在未來會怎麼做還在觀察比如說歐盟的MICA還有像比如說我們對新加坡他們對這個的管理這些都很值得我們來參考所以我們最近呢是這樣我們11月30號的時候我們公布了那個VASP打砸的那個就是那個洗錢的專法以後呢就進入到另外一個更高的層次在管制這個行業這是第一步"},{"start":5594.122,"end":5618.356,"text":"我們開放專業投資人可以投資這個比特幣的ETF這件事情我們還在那個事情中那再來就是說剛剛委員關切的專法的部分那專法的部分很重要就是他開始對這個機構做管理還對他的交易做管理還對消費者保護做管理這部分我們正在討論我們的委員研究已經出來了我們正在內部在討論還有正在吸收各"},{"start":5619.537,"end":5626.267,"text":"各界的意見來定我們的專法的這些的草案的內容大概是這樣那個主委我覺得剛剛我從你的那個口中我覺得我們目前監管會還是屬於比較保守的"},{"start":5632.219,"end":5651.308,"text":"那當然因為對於虛擬貨幣其實台灣基本上我們的相關的法規目前比較停留在所謂的防幣別說在防制洗錢的部分但是我剛才講因為你今天看參考其他的國家其實你參考亞洲的國家它的意義"},{"start":5652.128,"end":5664.011,"text":"又不大一樣我剛特別講到美國因為美國他一定會帶動全世界那所以包含他的上市櫃公司他們現在也開始更加積極的去投資虛擬貨幣那別台灣可能那個還是有受到比如說我們的一些會計準則的相關的規定那麼也會影響這個企業界他去投資"},{"start":5675.214,"end":5702.433,"text":"那我想請問的就是說如果我比較擔心的是如果我們現在的我們的心態仍然是屬於比較保守的話我們可能會被動的要去因應外界這些相關的這個金融市場會出現翻天動地的這個變化那我另外請教一下事實上在現在金融市場包含我們的一些傳統的金融機構"},{"start":5704.594,"end":5712.197,"text":"那他們也很想涉足包含虛擬貨幣的相關的服務我還不講說是投資他是一些相關的服務那另外呢別說像我們的投信你剛講說可以放寬這個專業人士專業人士去投資ETF那好那但是我們現在我們並沒有開放虛擬貨幣的ETF對不對"},{"start":5730.543,"end":5751.882,"text":"我們現在是可以投國外的對只能投國外的嘛用副委託的方式嘛那但是呢這個市場其實這個是一定會很快的走到這一步所以我剛剛講包含他們提供相關的服務還有比如國內的投信業者他們也會想說我可不可以發行"},{"start":5753.423,"end":5778.373,"text":"虛擬貨幣的ETF之類的那我想請問這個在未來我們的這個虛擬貨幣虛擬這個資產的相關的專法裡面會不會把這邊也也會把它納入我在這邊其實我都是在打預防針因為我覺得我們現在美國大選前跟美國大選後對虛擬貨幣的思維一定要有所改變"},{"start":5779.153,"end":5802.96,"text":"其實我們也是當然我剛跟委員講說美國當然是世界上非常重要的國家他的政策當然對全世界影響但我們的步驟是按照這個來走我剛講我們6月底之前會把那個這個我們的方案送進行政院剛剛有提到銀行的部分我們在明年1月1號開始就開放銀行去申請保管虛擬資產"},{"start":5805.663,"end":5813.799,"text":"這個事辦我們從1月1號因為我們的法規從12月就頒布但是我們是從1月1號才開始請他們準備一下可以來申請"},{"start":5815.534,"end":5844.514,"text":"可以申請但是什麼時候可以上路呢?他申請試辦以後只要我們同意他試辦立刻就可以開始做啦就是試辦的性質啦等於說這部分你要來申請試辦不是全面開放就來試辦的人我們要看他的那個技術還有就是安控有沒有符合這個要求讓你做做看那實際上就是上路的意思啦那但是不是全面等他試辦成功了我們有一定的規範我們就可以可以來考慮是否要走下一步這是第一個那第二個就是因為"},{"start":5845.654,"end":5856.342,"text":"有關我們正常的這些的金融機構去從事這個所謂的虛擬資產業務的部分我們現在還是先從我們的虛擬資產服務業的管理來開始來做當然這部分我也會請我們的同仁也會關注這樣的一個發展所以我們暫時不會開放傳統的金融機構"},{"start":5869.651,"end":5870.772,"text":"會不會開放發行虛擬貨幣的ETF?"},{"start":5883.394,"end":5898.342,"text":"這我們還要再來想一下所以短期間不會短期間如果說在這幾個月之內我想應該是不太可能我覺得這個東西可能你們都要做比較進一步的決定這都會納入我們的考量因為我時間關係"},{"start":5900.183,"end":5920.835,"text":"還有一個是大家非常關心我之前也有質詢那個主委也有來跟我在做說明那因為最近我仍然有我們的很多的選民在關心就是呢那個有關於保單不能強制執行的部分我們的現在進度到底在哪裡我現在還被人家一直追著問啊因為很多人更關心啊"},{"start":5921.515,"end":5943.596,"text":"現在的話我們當然就是還在跟各個委員在溝通的階段就是把那個版本就跟我們草案已經出來了所以你們沒有送到行政院到目前沒有出金管會大門先溝通完後我們立刻會送過去但是最近我們會加快這個速度那什麼時候可以我想如果說希望在這個會期之前能夠送進去"},{"start":5944.81,"end":5961.448,"text":"這個會期之前我們是要到明年了啊?盡快,如果這個月能夠的話我就盡快完成所以今年年底能不能拼?不曉得我要講就是說那另外就是你不可強制執行的這個額度是不是還是跟你上一次,因為我上次質詢你的還是基本上是在那個標準"},{"start":5963.129,"end":5981.44,"text":"就是解約金額十萬到二十萬還是這樣子嗎還是更會還會更放寬一點不要再更嚴了不要再更嚴格了我想這個部分大概就是類似這樣這樣因為還要還有共生我們只是提出一個方向而已所以要等到今年就今年拼今年年底把它送出去"},{"start":5982.08,"end":5996.106,"text":"對這是我們這也是我們今年這個會期列入我們金管會的優先推動了對其實明年很重要因為這件事情有非常多的很多的我們的一般的選民真的而且都是有些是弱勢的選民因為現在有幾十萬件"},{"start":5998.387,"end":5999.668,"text":"接著我們請李坤城委員"},{"start":6030.579,"end":6057.001,"text":"謝謝主席請這個彭主委請彭主委委員長主委好這個當沖降稅再延三年這個本來預計是從這個到年底延到這個2027年那其實草野都有共識了那本來在上個禮拜五如果順利三讀通過的話那我相信說大家都一定很開心因為這個是好的政策其實不分草野都有在支持"},{"start":6057.722,"end":6083.887,"text":"但是在上個禮拜五因為國民黨他把選罷法排在這個優先的法案然後後來因為有爭議性那我們希望說那是不是這一個沒有爭議性的這一個當沖降稅能夠排進去國民黨不同意那所以上個禮拜呢就沒有通過了那這個禮拜星期五看起來通過的機會也不大因為我們一樣是把這個當沖降稅呢列為優先的法案"},{"start":6084.434,"end":6096.99,"text":"但是呢國民黨一樣是把這個選罷法還有限速法呢列在優先的討論的這個法案裡面那我請教主委啊那如果這個這個禮拜五一樣當中降稅再延三年沒辦法過的話會有什麼影響"},{"start":6098.548,"end":6115.466,"text":"這個部分我們當然是期待這個會期因為這個只到今年的年底法律就是就到今年的年底那上次確實應該就在這個場地吧應該大家都已經同意了那我們也是期待本來是說排到當週的星期五就是上個禮拜五吧"},{"start":6116.147,"end":6132.994,"text":"因為我們也期待他過但是呢我們所有事情我們還是要做萬全的準備所以我們也在開始盤點說萬一立法遲延的時候我們該如何因應我們已經請我們的周邊單位相關的讓他該怎麼因應看起來是會這個禮拜五是沒辦法過啦"},{"start":6133.554,"end":6158.489,"text":"我們把各種的狀況我們還是期待我先把最壞的狀況跟你講了啊對對對我還是期待他過但是我們我跟你講這禮拜五不會過了啦那我們就備案的話我們就會來來啟動我們已經開始在做這件事情了那有哪些備案呢比如說第一個他先第一個一定系統要改系統要改他我們的交易的這個相關單位他就必須改變這個就要就要花花一些人力趕快來做這件事時間夠嗎我們有盤點過他們會盡量來配合"},{"start":6162.731,"end":6179.047,"text":"對,那時間要多長的時間啊?這個看每家公司,我沒有請他們開始在作業,我想距離現在還有一點點時間。我就跟你講不會過了啦,國民黨不會讓你過啦。不是,我說假設現在到年底還有一點點時間啦,我覺得我們一定會,如果真的這樣的話,我們一定會,一定也要完成啦。對。"},{"start":6180.208,"end":6194.274,"text":"那對啊你說第一個修改程式還有就是說中間還有一些那個待增的作業因為我們現在是待增嘛就等於說由我們的金融業者代替國家來徵收那這部分呢可能未來未來修法"},{"start":6195.41,"end":6196.792,"text":"主要是人力加班的支出"},{"start":6210.43,"end":6232.71,"text":"所以你們現在就開始營業嗎?因為今天明天20號了嘛,大概只剩下10天左右我們已經開始在...開始...我就跟你講要做最壞的打算跟準備因為明天國民黨還是把這個選罷法跟限數法又列在討論的這一個...我也希望能過但是從上個禮拜到明天,我看他們的優先法案"},{"start":6232.91,"end":6237.412,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":6258.066,"end":6265.81,"text":"好再請教一下那本來齁我記得我在3月份的時候有問說這個金管會就是說今年要去這個中國去做這個金檢嘛對然後後來好像這個"},{"start":6270.316,"end":6297.743,"text":"這個對岸就說這個時機不妥那後來你們就沒有過去了當然那我們就去香港他是哪時候回覆你們的大概4月的時候4月對那後來我們就去香港香港檢查然後應該也就順利完成去香港去香港可以嗎香港可以那本來那中國呢中國現在就剛被推遲嘛那我們就用其他替代方式檢查那這樣也可以嗎我們就替代替代的方式檢查當然我們還是要去了解我們的國"},{"start":6300.065,"end":6310.761,"text":"我們在那邊的金融機構的經營狀況只是說我們沒辦法派員去但是很多的資料我們還是可以請他給我們看那所以如果今年沒辦法過去"},{"start":6311.448,"end":6338.786,"text":"那明年咧?我看你們還是有編預算明年要過去啊?他其實沒有說不可以只是說現在時機不宜我們還是會按照因為時機不宜就是說你就是不要你就讓你過去啊但是時機不宜的理由到底是什麼啊?當然我們就就因為四月份欸對就是我們現在因為彼此因為我們都有互設金融機構我們有簽那個金融合作的MOU本來就是我們就可以提出要去檢查的那個需求"},{"start":6339.346,"end":6343.976,"text":"連今年沒去了,四年沒去了還是可以請我們檢察局局長跟你簡單回覆一下"},{"start":6346.889,"end":6361.013,"text":"我們今年本來是要去三個分行但是因為大陸方面是建議暫緩辦理所以我們本來要去上海跟深圳就是兩家銀行各三家分行那因為剛好這兩家銀行我們在今年也有辦中信跟義銀"},{"start":6369.835,"end":6394.483,"text":"那剛好我們今年度也有對這兩家的總行有辦理一般業務檢查跟專案檢查所以我們就以調閱的方式來調閱這兩家銀行在大陸地區分行的相關資料來實施我們的金融檢查那至於預算執行的部分呢因為港澳是同一個預算科目所以呢今年大陸方面建議我們不要去我們就把相關的預算用在對香港的三家分行來實施精檢"},{"start":6394.923,"end":6416.572,"text":"所以明年還是會去問一下那個中國我們明年度還是一樣有編列預算我們是打算到兩家香港兩家那我們還是會循這個正常程序來跟陸方溝通好那我問一下齁那現在這個我們的這個在中國的銀行齁曝險的這個金額大概是多少現在大概應該是八千多億啊八千多億對"},{"start":6418.354,"end":6432.451,"text":"已經是歷史的低點就是說你們包含這個銀行、證券、保險其他兩個行業的付險那個金額都相對小總共加起來大概一兆出頭"},{"start":6433.83,"end":6458.944,"text":"對,我看一下那個資料,就是說大概暴險金額,你剛才說8000多億是不是?對,對,8700億左右那你有詳細的資料,你再給我沒有問題,這個我們有定期公佈這些資訊因為現在齁,中國不管是這個房地產或是其他的行業齁,這個風險都很高啦那所以我就是說,看一下就是說我們這個銀行業在那邊的這個暴險,暴險的金額是不是有降低啊?"},{"start":6459.244,"end":6479.18,"text":"其實我們對海外不只是我們都有都有相關的警示跟揭露機制在處理中那相關這些有歷年的資料再請我們同仁再提供給委員參考好那再問一下這一個主委是這個有關這個融資公司管理是那這個你們現在是請銀行工會來處理嗎不是"},{"start":6482.719,"end":6486.9,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":6502.706,"end":6525.809,"text":"對這個融資的這個租賃業有一個那個受信的這個實務的一個一個公告啦對那這個公告有實施了嗎有啊就是針對那個BMPL跟那個車貸的部分嘛是哪時候實施的上半年那個公佈了之後就立刻實施沒有我記得你們那時候是說年底啊怎麼會是上半年呢"},{"start":6527.174,"end":6535.859,"text":"年底的部分應該是沒有沒有年底的部分應該是我們現在正在做你們有一個什麼授信實務守則有這個東西嗎這個是有這個是針對那個集中度簽署"},{"start":6548.767,"end":6573.705,"text":"這個是針對那個BMPL還有再來就是中古車的車貸的一些相關的實務的授信的規定對那這也公告實施了嗎對這邊已經公告了是哪時候公告的這個是因為他工會經過我們洽息了之後他應該就可以執行了那時候"},{"start":6576.428,"end":6577.692,"text":"11月的時候11月的時候對"},{"start":6581.423,"end":6601.938,"text":"將資本額達一定規模以上的上市貴融資註定公司納入金融消費者保護法的適用範圍這個你們是要用行政命令公告的方式來實施嗎?是,就根據我們金融消費者保護法第3條的規定也已經公告了嗎?還沒還沒,我剛剛講還要尋求社會共識我記得好像11月的時候有問"},{"start":6606.981,"end":6633.124,"text":"對就是因為現在我覺得當然是希望這些被我們第一波納管的能夠也能夠了解我們整個的所有的內容所以我們還是希望趕快溝通完畢以後我們就公告公告以後兩個月生效以後我們準備兩個月大概能夠在希望能夠在半年五個月之內能夠再上路我記得上次問你們說你們說年底希望能夠納入這個啊信用消費者保護法適用範圍啊是沒錯因為"},{"start":6634.405,"end":6657.183,"text":"當時我們的預計是說我們希望在年底就能夠公告但是因為他們對我們很多做法還有疑慮還有透過一些希望我們再溝通能夠上次也有參加那個委員會的一個就是我們立法院的一個公聽會希望說我們再開兩次會跟他們溝通完畢我們再來上路我們覺得溝通很重要持續現在主力最大是什麼"},{"start":6658.344,"end":6672.732,"text":"我想他大概想的第一個可能對比如說未來我們的平益制度、成本還有就是平益的項目還有就是我們納管的強度這些東西因為他們畢竟是第一次所以我們會請我們的法務處還有平益這邊多跟他們溝通"},{"start":6674.453,"end":6698.95,"text":"那所以這個要納入這個金融消費者保護法大概哪時候才會納進去呢我想說如果說比如說假設我們最近能夠盡快的然後召開一些會議溝通完畢大家有共識了我們立刻就按照我剛剛的進程就是法規就公告公告60天後就生效生效完畢以後呢就準備兩個兩個月到三個月我們就開始"},{"start":6701.792,"end":6712.741,"text":"那所以這樣推算的話最快要半年的時間那已經很快了那已經很快了嗎那是必要的法定程序所以最快半年之內可以拿進去就對了對我們希望我們希望好加油啊謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6717.032,"end":6742.737,"text":"好 謝謝李崑禎委員李崑禎委員不用擔心禮拜五只要民進黨循規到底坐在座位上面按表決序一定會審到那個政交法我尊重你我們大家都我們大家都關心民生法案尊重你"},{"start":6747.816,"end":6767.205,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會"},{"start":6775.134,"end":6790.99,"text":"你們坐在座位上好好按表決序就可以了所有案子都會過主要你們不要在那邊鬧場就可以了謝謝謝謝主席我可不可以請一下主委副委員長"},{"start":6794.198,"end":6812.993,"text":"主委謝謝我們還是回到金管會最重要的業務還有這個會期我曾經質詢過的那剛才有前面幾位委員非常關心租賃業者的消費金融的業務要不要納入金保法這件事情前幾個禮拜我們有幾個委員也針對於這件事情開了一個協調會"},{"start":6814.795,"end":6825.029,"text":"委員會的共識其實非常的清楚為了協助業者體制的改善還有保護消費者的權益可以更健全還有政府制度化的規範大家其實是有共識的要納入金保法"},{"start":6829.736,"end":6846.668,"text":"但是我們都知道這些業者其實跟一般的金融業者不一樣所有要納入的其實如果說要納入的話是應該是6000多家都要納入所以他們租賃業者他並不是一般的金融業者在試用上我們覺得思考"},{"start":6847.549,"end":6850.83,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會"},{"start":6874.319,"end":6876.9,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":6895.445,"end":6912.502,"text":"全國有6000多家租賃業者這必須要有一個更完整的說法這你也非常清楚但是金管會對於業者的納入其實包括業者要納入金保法的管理包括系統的調整合約的調整人員的訓練"},{"start":6913.863,"end":6938.037,"text":"都是勢必要給一些緩衝期這些事情在所有新的法規要做的時候我相信都會有一些準備的作業時間不論是你們在法規上做準備業者公共在法規上做準備勢必都要做得更完整這才是有機會獲得雙贏所以業者納入金保法之後未來他們還提出一個未來納入消費爭議譬如說我買一個按摩椅先用後付"},{"start":6946.484,"end":6957.096,"text":"動輒調解費都要上萬元前面我們有提到說其實我買這個東西才三萬元但是我後面要進入調解的費用可能就要好幾千塊甚至上萬塊這個對業者來說他們有陳情這個對他們來說負擔非常重"},{"start":6961.681,"end":6985.736,"text":"有時候消費者的爭議不完全是業者錯誤有時候是在法規上的問題有時候是消費者問題不管這是個案的問題但是我覺得我之前在其他會當中都有反映這件事情我們也希望透過這個協調會把無論調解的費用如何去降低因為這麼多它可能消費的爭議只有三萬塊只有五千塊只有六千塊可是光這樣一個調解爭議就要"},{"start":6987.017,"end":7003.554,"text":"好幾千塊甚至是上萬塊這個問題如何去做解決我們大家有互動有答案有共識也都各自帶著功課回家我們也希望儘速的我們把大家私底下你們也都多溝通然後儘速的配合我們可以趕快上路但是絕對不是像"},{"start":7009.58,"end":7021.962,"text":"某些委員開協調會就有人質疑說你們被施壓了我覺得在立法院各別委員都彼此互相尊重每天每一個委員立法院113位委員各自都有普通的協調會在溝通"},{"start":7023.959,"end":7028.244,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":7043.661,"end":7070.044,"text":"主席 主委我上次問過你那個我們的TWIC是要上路的部分2026 1月1號我們要適用新的會計準則那你當時在這個會期上個會期的時候你有答應我說我們會有第4個階段你有說明過而且11月底前會有定案那也讓業者有足夠時間來準備那我們現在第4期我注意到的是我還沒公布是對不對還沒還沒"},{"start":7070.785,"end":7093.145,"text":"那我們是不是有碰到什麼困難因為當時你有說有一些變數我們可能要調整包括調整一些風險的係數還有一些其他的問題那到底我們碰到哪些挑戰跟問題那委員剛剛我簡短回應你剛剛好簡短因為我只有三分鐘剛剛那融資公司我們還是期待多溝通大家有共識趕快來做"},{"start":7096.223,"end":7109.33,"text":"我們有施壓嗎?沒有啦,我覺得溝通是很重要的啦因為他們如果說對於我們講不清楚我覺得繼續溝通因為畢竟這個是一個比較特殊的做法一定要大家有共識"},{"start":7110.33,"end":7133.299,"text":"因為法規上你們其實不可以針對三家你們是要一體適用你非常清楚好沒關係沒關係我們就是希望他趕快做對大家多溝通對來那第二個有關那個我們第四階段的部分其實我們現在因為主要是這樣我們第四階段主要剛剛講有兩個主要的做法一個叫做在地化一個叫做過渡化一個叫做過渡嘛"},{"start":7134.159,"end":7157.609,"text":"那過渡的部分應該都差不多現在就在地化的部分因為我們現在就是要針對一些我們自己所適用的這些的參數來做那哪些參數你現在要調整比如說舉個例您現在是舉例過所以接下來什麼時候會公佈那哪些參數你會增加我們還是年底以前會公佈我們做的12月31日之前會公佈第4階段就是我們現在就是比如說我們的利率的SHOCK"},{"start":7158.089,"end":7165.494,"text":"離併率、長壽、SHARK、資本市長有資料可以來算假設有台灣資料更可信的時候,我們就會朝這幾個方向來做在地化方法論我們是用國際的標準,但是我們的資料當然是我們自己最好"},{"start":7183.547,"end":7204.268,"text":"所以你再地化會增加幾個係數就對了這幾個只要是我們台灣有係數的部分我們都會考慮好所以那我最後一個問題我們最終還沒有定案最後我還是在年底之前我會跟大家報告那會有第五階段嗎在20261月1號之前沒有就是說我們是應該這樣講我們一個政策一定是希望周延所以我想說"},{"start":7205.129,"end":7205.49,"text":"現在是沒有這樣的一個計劃但是"},{"start":7220.632,"end":7234.443,"text":"未來接軌要一年很長的時間有什麼重大的比如國際政經形勢的變化我覺得還是你可能會做滾動式的調整那當然是所有政策所必要的好謝謝主委好我這個議題結束好這個主委我接下來要問一下詐騙的議題"},{"start":7236.084,"end":7239.069,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":7252.068,"end":7281.258,"text":"我覺得要去做一些調整跟討論所以主委現在無論對於人頭賬戶的管理林貴的關懷我們有做了幾件事情我都非常的支持那但是第一個就是我們現在銀行局有盯上跳槽族這件事情主委你應該也有小孩小孩也會開始出去找工作我現在面臨幾個年輕人也跟我陳情就是說他們剛開始可能會在工作前期可能一個工作做"},{"start":7281.678,"end":7283.599,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會主管中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案有"},{"start":7304.781,"end":7332.442,"text":"很痛苦的事情所以在這些年輕人有跟我澄清在這些轉換的過程當中有沒有什麼更好的做法比如說我們可不可以主動跟勞動部去做一些溝通協調還是說在他的同意底下就是說他們在簽說如果6個月之內你有什麼工作的轉換你可以去從勞動部調他的資料他是有薪資轉換我同意你們對高風險的人口帳戶做列管但是同時我們有什麼樣的機制"},{"start":7333.843,"end":7357.958,"text":"我們每個人都可能有一個銀行以上不同銀行的帳戶當然當然所以這件事情如何做更妥善的處理這個齁 這個跟委員報告有些其實齁 這個我最近跟金融機構因為我們現在從11月開始我們要求所有的銀行都要設置打詐主管是那執行責任地圖制齁那裡面一個很重要的就是說我們希望他做精準的打擊"},{"start":7359.42,"end":7378.563,"text":"所以精準答案就剛才講說確實我們現在很多的新轉戶就是高頻的那種新轉戶是成為是那個很喜歡去收購的這樣那個確實我們看到所以剛才講說很多比如年輕人因為他轉換工作比較頻繁可能就會列為是一個高風險的賬戶當然有些是很正常的轉值所以我們講說要怎麼精準"},{"start":7379.063,"end":7401.079,"text":"對 如果說我的助理他從台北市政府轉到台灣銀行轉到立法院來上班那他如果拿一個薪資報告去跟富邦銀行解說沒有我只是轉到這裡我完全是很正常的這個可不可以怎麼樣去做處理但我們一定會來朝這個方向來精進因為確實齁因為我們所有的警示的這些的項目一定有些是真的有些是"},{"start":7401.96,"end":7420.816,"text":"沒有問題的這個我第一個提醒他個人可以怎麼處理然後你們可以怎麼樣跟勞動部做勾結這第一點第二點現在10件詐騙案有9件都還是從所有的平台無論LINE、臉書、TikTok還是YouTube都從這邊出來"},{"start":7422.998,"end":7437.267,"text":"我們到底我知道這是數位部的問題還有其他單位我們也有這部分你們也有吼對我們對那個投資就是那個涉及證券的部分那一塊除了這樣子我們政府有所有的單位我們怎麼樣因為我覺得他們做的並不好"},{"start":7438.406,"end":7462.654,"text":"我們也沒有好好地說我們現在已經有做一個新的做法不投放廣告或者還有什麼其他的手段工具我們政府應該做你知道這個真的是我每天服務處都接到這麼多的電話被詐騙我真的是不知道所以這一點我們有注意到這個可能做法我不方便在這邊說對於這個廣告下架的這個部分我們有新的做法什麼時候會公佈這個不公佈"},{"start":7465.315,"end":7493.715,"text":"這個因為我們不能對外講對外講他就知道我們怎麼做那你會做已經在做已經在做那我什麼時候可以看到具體的成效那我希望也能夠有成效因為我們也說因為我一講說這種打詐的方法我們最好不要再公開的說因為公開說其實很多他就知道我們對應的方法主委我同意但是我期待看到你的成效因為現在我現在看到我們打詐的方法過了但成效並不好你非常的清楚數量數量數字數量其實都越來越多"},{"start":7494.776,"end":7495.396,"text":"接著我們請吳立懷委員"},{"start":7535.391,"end":7557.425,"text":"謝謝主席再次有請主委委員長好主委早好我知道金管會一直都很重視如何把金融業在國外的資金特別是受險業把它引回那我們特別看到一些數據資料例如保險業的資金36兆"},{"start":7559.366,"end":7581.463,"text":"投信業境內外的基金17兆特別是國人的存款54兆他顯示的就是國內超額存款的比例是相當高的那代表我們的資金應該要活用但是重點要有投資的標的那我們也看到一些數據例如像金融業持有台股2.87兆當中受險業就佔了1.85兆"},{"start":7585.126,"end":7587.748,"text":"債券31兆當中受險業有21.5兆顯示受險業佔我們臺灣金融業的國內投資佔了7成多﹐比例相當的高甚至是它的海外債券也是臺股的11.6倍"},{"start":7602.78,"end":7619.755,"text":"所以這個現象也造成我們很重視要怎麼樣把它引流回來那我知道前幾天我們有辦一個2024的保險論壇這個當中卓院長他的致詞發言也特別提到一個叫做兆元投資國家方案"},{"start":7620.396,"end":7636.817,"text":"那第一個就是他要推動一個平台去媒合一些案源跟業者優化我們公共建設的融資條件然後增加公共建設的金融商品那這顯示的就是我們過去的這種政府採購法"},{"start":7638.058,"end":7654.433,"text":"他防弊的心態比較重導致這些法規限制使得獲益降低也使得進場的意願很低那他們比較喜歡的看起來是希望政府要來提供金融商品這個看起來是大家一致的意見"},{"start":7655.614,"end":7679.254,"text":"財政部在促三2.0有一個有償PPP的模式也就是說由政府編列預算去買回一部分或全部的公共服務定期的付費給民間機構因為這樣就會報酬穩定可以降低投資的風險也就會吸引民間的資金這其中有提到適合的公共建設像是污水下水道"},{"start":7679.734,"end":7698.219,"text":"自來水水利設施、環境污染防治設施、交通建設或者是社福這些設施那其中的本來沒有那後來大家我們也一直關切的就是放入衛生福利醫療設施例如長照那主委你應該也知道我很關心這件事你看"},{"start":7699.159,"end":7713.752,"text":"我們的原鄉長照吼真的是做得最不好的最沒有的就是沒有照顧到這些失能老人沒有住宿式的長照機構那今年8月終於有一個第一間"},{"start":7714.672,"end":7742.987,"text":"在臺東那也顯示他的速度是非常的緩慢可是為什麼會這樣因為政策的引導不足甚至是排斥這個表格他是112到114我們衛福部的一個獎勵資源獎補助的部件區域這個當中沒有任何一個原鄉在裡面沒有任何一個原鄉我想問一下主委您覺得理由是什麼"},{"start":7745.218,"end":7751.404,"text":"呃我想齁因為我真的不是這方面的專家啦我就直觀的認為我覺得當然是因為他"},{"start":7753.046,"end":7764.874,"text":"可能人數還有就是資源條件的問題好 我跟您說齁 這個理由真是氣死人齁他說需求人數未達營運規模啦那政府就很奇怪啦又口口聲聲說要做長照又說我們的投資標的也可以放入長照又告訴你說他需求人數未達營運標準這非常矛盾啊"},{"start":7779.824,"end":7802.537,"text":"所以我想要請教一下就是主委就是山地原鄉長期缺乏長住型的這種住宿型機構他是事實那速餐2.0上路之後呢政府推動有償PPP這個財政部模式也是事實您認為是不是有助於國內受險業的資金投資我們原鄉的長照您認為"},{"start":7803.377,"end":7811.532,"text":"那當然其實我在很多場合都提過其實受險業是有高度興趣投入國內的長照抱歉"},{"start":7815.109,"end":7837.541,"text":"但是因為受險業的資金有成本所以他的投資一定要有合理的回報否則他沒辦法因應他的負債的結構所以假設任何一個投資這個內容它本身是有自償性比如說假設長照機構可以收住宿費如果再加上一些政府的補貼那這樣的話就有可能讓他有一個穩定的報酬"},{"start":7838.181,"end":7852.593,"text":"政府就不用出錢來營建,他就可以透過這個資金進來比如說他也可以用發債的方式然後給予固定的那個債息,他就可以長期的投資又加上政府的保證具有穩定的收入,那就有可能做到這一點"},{"start":7854.515,"end":7869.927,"text":"謝謝我看起來也是如此我們來看一下在這一次的2024保險論壇受險工會的常務理事吳傑他說受險業者是有意願的他說社宅醫療他說也是他們有願意投資的項目"},{"start":7871.388,"end":7894.645,"text":"那我看到這個南山人壽總經理范文偉他也提到說他們希望未來的公共建設有更多元投資的方式包括這個REIT或者是PE債券化、證券化所以總而言之就是希望公共建設要把它給證券化、債券化增加公共建設的金融商品那畢竟"},{"start":7895.966,"end":7901.347,"text":"這個是大家的期待可是事實是我們政府的公債數量確實是不多所以這個投報率呢是很重要的一個關鍵那所以呢看起來我們國內的受險業者對於投資長照這個公共建設並非沒有意願但是希望可以擺脫過往政府這種採購的思維那透過好的金融商品去做籌資特別是基金、債券"},{"start":7923.852,"end":7944.545,"text":"但是到底要發行什麼商品它的投報率到底能不能過高所以我這邊要特別請教一下主委那如果說我們要提高這個投資報酬率讓受險資金願意配合政府的政策統入公共建設那您認為到底要怎麼做特別是原鄉的長照或公共建設"},{"start":7945.886,"end":7960.167,"text":"根委員報告其實我們在這次兆元投資計畫裡面有一個很重要的概念就是說希望我們的公部門釋出未來可能會證券化或債券化的案源像比如說我們剛才講假設以債券化現在已經有幾個個案在談"},{"start":7961.161,"end":7988.745,"text":"怎麼樣發這個永續債這個方式那尤其很多地方政府是很有興趣我想這個應該很快會有些成績那我就是想知道進度如何對那這部分你再講像REITS也有規劃嗎那個REITS因為我們還在那個立法院我們希望說看看如果能夠盡快通過的話要超前部署啊對有規劃嗎當然很多人在做準備了因為這個大家都很看好其他國家這個部分是用來包裝公件成為一個證券化很重要的一個工具"},{"start":7989.065,"end":7997.241,"text":"所以是有進度的進展中的我們已經請我們的周邊單位開始去研議這些東西但是還要等法律通過那另外一個就是說"},{"start":7998.516,"end":8026.98,"text":"我們也請我們的交易所跟櫃買由他們董事長領軍我們請他成立一個義務性的叫做資本市場服務團就來協助我們的政府機關說如果你有好的案源你怕你沒有那個證券化的知識沒關係他可以來幫你評估然後做出一個我們市場可以接受的這產品我們希望這個也有在談的像剛才講說我想前陣子國發會主委也提到就是說我們的自來水漏水很嚴重假設有人願意來投資再來做的話"},{"start":8027.5,"end":8031.144,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案有"},{"start":8045.842,"end":8071.18,"text":"就是他除了那個長照可能是規模不夠不賺錢他會規劃結合一個共同開發產生收益就可以我們蓋一個車站不賺錢但他上面有些商業利益就有可能成為是一個可行的方案這就可以朝這個方向來施策非常謝謝我希望主委您在這方面要多多的替我們原鄉如何引進投資來幫我們去做一個設計規劃這是我們普惠金融想推的"},{"start":8071.84,"end":8090.236,"text":"那剛剛您也有提到其實像是這些長照我們也有聽到像政企局的官員風力發電、太陽能發電其實都有包含在這個當中表示說大家是有意願的但是我也想介紹一下主委您看一下其實我們現在原鄉"},{"start":8091.798,"end":8116.984,"text":"也很想做這一些升值能發電再生能源的一個開發利用畢竟我們的廢材廢料很多那現在氣候變遷這樣異常的狀況下我們也很需要去發展來自給自足那像政府呢其實像經濟部能源局他也有一些再生能源的示範獎勵辦法但是我跟您說現在退出以來沒有任何一個相公所願意投入為什麼因為他為了補助一千萬"},{"start":8120.185,"end":8144.46,"text":"他要自籌4000萬所以其實融資始終是一個最大的問題又或者像這個公民電廠的獎勵辦法他可以協會合作社可以來申請但是一樣啊他為了那一點點的錢他要找更多的錢來投資所以也都卡關那我知道你們金管會曾經提出一個叫綠色授信那請教一下主委齁這個要怎麼幫助我們園鄉如果參與這一類的事情"},{"start":8147.499,"end":8163.416,"text":"那當然就是我們現在我們在做那個綠色金融轉型行動方案裡面呢怎麼樣支持這個這個這個綠色的轉型跟產業是我們一個方向那這個我們要按照個案來看他的他的內容因為他畢竟還是一個"},{"start":8164.477,"end":8189.877,"text":"一個商業行為是那我想說這部分若有個案的話我們可以來評估好那主委反正時間的關係總之像怎麼活用這些綠色獸性這些很多工具那我想這個部分我還是希望說金管會再幫忙多想一想也希望在三個月內給我一個報告讓我知道我們可以怎麼樣共同來協助原鄉來發展提供幾個具體的"},{"start":8191.878,"end":8192.558,"text":"有請今晚會鵬主委"},{"start":8215.587,"end":8240.554,"text":"主委瑞齒這個我想大家都非常支持這個法案也已經出了委員會那你們應該去追一下為什麼到因為那時候是民進黨的召委這個主持的那為什麼現在到現在這個到底應該你們也是執政團隊應該去詢問一下民進黨團為什麼到現在這個案子都還沒有排上是我們在努力中對啊是到底還有什麼議題嗎因為大家都沒有什麼意見這也是相當好的這個法令"},{"start":8241.974,"end":8263.342,"text":"第二本席也肯定你對這個做這個未雨綢繆有關這個當沖降稅這件事情明天的院會如果說是按照民主程序大家都循規蹈矩坐在座位上按表決鈕的話那所有的法案都會循序的是通過或是否決那事實上這個當沖降稅這個大家事實上也沒有什麼朝野各黨派都沒有什麼意見大家也都是支持延長"},{"start":8264.142,"end":8264.523,"text":"有關金融消費者保護法"},{"start":8281.526,"end":8305.869,"text":"其實它的範圍很難界定,要看它登記有粗略沒有官方的統計應該是數千家多少家數千家數千,一千、三千、五千這個就是它的邊界數千,反正千家以上嘛因為其實這個定義很難啦沒關係,你們的粗略統計大概有數千家幾千家就對了那幾千家現在應該是屬於經濟部公司法所管的經濟部所主管的嘛"},{"start":8306.229,"end":8306.849,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":8330.096,"end":8350.61,"text":"金融消費者保護法你要使用的是第三條本法所定之金融服務業包括銀行、證券、期貨、保險、電子租業及其他金主管機關公告之金融服務業金融服務業你要公告你們要做公告所以你們公告絕對不是一家兩家的產業你們公告是這個產業這句話是金融服務業"},{"start":8354.432,"end":8362.764,"text":"一個產業所以不管是一千家兩千家我很肯定你們願意把這一兩千家納入我們金融監督管的這個範圍其實沒有這個範圍我跟委員報告一下就等於說分兩點一個就那個條文"},{"start":8370.876,"end":8395.679,"text":"指定之產業公告公告公告之金融服務業他說的是產業嘛金融服務業這是產業金融服務業這是一個產業不是某一家嘛現在比如說我們那個所謂我們一般在講的融資公司對有人叫做融資租賃公司對有人叫做理財公司不管嘛反正數千家他不是一個現在不是一個產業所以他還不是一個產業他沒辦法就是說定義比如銀行業我就定義你沒有辦法所以"},{"start":8396.219,"end":8421.989,"text":"所以你認為這麼幾千家還不足以成為一個產業他有分各種各式各樣他其實不是不是一個成型一樣你如果要特別公告那所謂那三家我們所謂的三大這個租賃業那那個本來就在你們監管的範圍因為他們是上市櫃公司他們本來就接受你們監管嘛如果你們要把他納入把那三家特別納入我覺得你知道你是學者出身嘛你知道行政程序法吧"},{"start":8423.129,"end":8423.85,"text":"行政程序法第6條"},{"start":8445.934,"end":8468.904,"text":"對 原則平等的行為嘛 原則平等的行為嘛行政行為我練給你 非有正當理由不得為差別待遇嘛所以等則等之 不等則不等之嘛 這個法務這邊沒有什麼意見嘛對啊 這個是我們學 我們要學行政法律的 這個是ABC嘛好 那如果這樣的 這樣的情況下 如果你要特別的管制幾家業者 這造成一個不平等"},{"start":8469.224,"end":8470.345,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":8484.571,"end":8499.227,"text":"事情您回去研究一下是沒有問題我可以研究我事實上不畏懼任何人說我們接受任何陳情我也是有接受陳情因為本來對的事情就應該做政府的任何行政行為影響到不管各個產業或是本來你們就應該要依法行政"},{"start":8499.967,"end":8522.042,"text":"這是最基本原則那還有一點跟委員簡單說明就好就是說我們對融資公司這麼多的公司裡面上次行政院那個政委裡面有做個分工的協調金管會他只會管部分的大型的金融機構你們該管的就是你們照法規定比如上市規定這個屬於你們監管任何一家不管他是哪一個本來就歸你們管但是你們如果按照產業者對產業某幾家挑起來管你們本來在監管裡頭就應該監管這個是你們的"},{"start":8529.227,"end":8553.189,"text":"合法的這個監管行為但是如果你要做這個公告你就要按照依法公告這個公告就必須按照法律他的第三條規定的按照產業如果你要把這個產業整個搬到你這邊來公告那個我也是尊重你因為你要管數千家你勇於承擔我也是表示肯定這不可能金管會不可能管數千家那不可能你就不能做差別行為的待遇這不能做差別這是行政法規定這個你今天不是編這個因為下去我要有其他議題了解謝謝你們回去法律的研究"},{"start":8555.811,"end":8558.632,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":8578.237,"end":8581.079,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":8607.74,"end":8609.061,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":8632.432,"end":8659.766,"text":"不管怎麼樣金融一定會很多交流往來這個無可避免人來來往往或是這個也有住在那邊的人也有過來反正這個一定有那這個東西也許金門可以扮演一個角色那我看到在我們這個金我們的之前考察結束後有相關的新聞報導以後我看到這個大陸那一邊就是這個臺辦那邊國台辦特別針對這一點有說這個願意和金門同胞共同探索"},{"start":8661.207,"end":8679.83,"text":"兩岸金融領域融合發展的新入境和新模式這是大陸特別提出來的這個事實上我們也從來我們是希望說金門可以在這個東西辦什麼但大陸主動也提出來這個東西那所以在這個部分裡頭我看到陸委會有說法就是說這個部分就是說"},{"start":8680.891,"end":8703.94,"text":"金融業者赴金門去設點要市場虛動而非政治力量這個我也同意然後接著他說整體政策應該透過這個金管會來演習那陸委會就是說這個至於在兩岸之間是不是在金門這個地方可以扮演什麼角色這個應該是由你們來這個來再做一些研究發展研究啦那這個部分的話你有什麼看法嗎"},{"start":8704.68,"end":8728.517,"text":"我想我們陳副主委也有參與這次的參訪也有去深入的去跟比如說現場他回來就有說這件事情後來看到的媒體的報導我們後面這些同仁就是我就回去就說這個議題你要先開始來研究一下比如說保險方面說不定讓大陸人到金門去說不定可以買保單啊什麼的這個也是增進我們產業的發展這是都是有可能的"},{"start":8729.217,"end":8736.024,"text":"所以我們現在就請同仁你們去研究一下啦這個再給我一個到時候給我們一個大家來看怎麼樣讓這個在兩岸之間金門扮演這個角色說在旅遊觀光這方面這個也看能不能也幫助我們國內也會有業者說不定有這樣的需求有人對金門很關心這是當然金門的立委"},{"start":8749.017,"end":8749.518,"text":"委員也是法律專家我們講行其無形"},{"start":8772.475,"end":8794.068,"text":"政府的公權力不是為了裁判而且如果單只兩年就說怎麼樣這我覺得也是很特別我想這個完全沒辦法這樣比你我上任就講過其實監理不能鬆但是發展不能忘這個我也肯定你你事實上業界有很多肯定說事實上這個希望有一個創新的改變不過對於應該合法遵守的"},{"start":8798.194,"end":8802.039,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":8815.836,"end":8837.963,"text":"沒有我想這已經進入到司法程序對那進入司法對下一個問題就是如果已經涉及刑事責任那當然刑事上我們檢調單位他應該負責嘛那在你們行政上來講今晚後來也不用管了嗎沒有我們當然會去研究這個案例因為這個是在境外的合併案是境外的合併案不只一個啦我這邊手上好幾個檢舉的案例啦我的意思是說我的意思是說"},{"start":8839.409,"end":8860.496,"text":"刑事的部分．調查有很多種．監管管理有很多種．刑事．法律上有刑事的．有行政的．刑事的我們交給檢調單位去．你們理由事實上也有檢察官．你們也有相關．你們也可以去調查．但是到了行政的部分．是不是你們就應該還是應該進行行政上的監管呢．還是你就真的你商量以後．就開始變成如大家所說．開始不管了．"},{"start":8861.676,"end":8890.466,"text":"跟委員報告該我們管我們也我們不是想不想管我們也跑不掉該我們管我們就是要管沒有說想不想管的問題我想這個是應該的若不是我們管的話你不是想管就所以行政上的監管應該還是要存在嘛對吧如果他是屬於我們轄管範圍我們當然要管我們手頭上有相當多的這個這個不管是民間來的這個檢舉案件所以我們會一一的跟你們資料提供給你們希望你們要確實的這個監管當然我們依法辦理一定要依法辦理"},{"start":8891.246,"end":8891.386,"text":"主席"},{"start":8916.247,"end":8939.441,"text":"主席各位列席委員大家好主席有請監管會的彭主委主委好主委好主委2025年的台股形勢曆已經出爐了那全年台股交易日有246天那農曆年休市11天就是史上第二場僅次於2023年的12天"},{"start":8942.023,"end":8957.313,"text":"那請問主委說有沒有掌握休市這麼多天之後股市的波動那還有就請教主委對於明年一整年股市你有什麼期許可不可以簡單說明其實這是每年我們都會遇到的例行只是長短的差別因為通常我們"},{"start":8958.354,"end":8983.033,"text":"不是全世界的股市互相聯動應該講全世界的股市互相聯動但是不是所有的股市向我們放春節這個這很多問題這個我們會例行線我還是提醒主委啦因為新的一年那金管會一定要掌握好這個股市的態度美國總統也要上任了那國際情勢、地緣政治還有國際股市的升降期、通膨等等這些因素都要掌控好我們希望說台股能夠繼續穩健的成長"},{"start":8984.554,"end":9011.708,"text":"金融業正面臨數位轉型還有永續轉型的雙重挑戰在這個關鍵的時刻金管會扮演著這個引領的角色那透過政策的規劃還有創新支持那協助這個金融業能夠順利的轉型那並且提升整體的競爭力那主委你特別強調說在轉型這個數位轉型的浪潮當中這個金融業應該加強數位能力還有科技應用能力對不對這你強調過"},{"start":9013.449,"end":9038.122,"text":"建構具有國際競爭力的一個數位金融體系為了實現這個數位轉型還有永續轉型的常理目標金融會預計在明年要成立金融市場發展及創新處可不可以請教主委在這邊說明這個創新處的業務是什麼那你希望他達到什麼樣的目標如何幫助我國在金融方面能夠更進一步"},{"start":9038.502,"end":9064.365,"text":"好 謝謝委員剛剛委員提到沒有錯金融業它面對整個全社會的數位轉型一定要提升它自己的科技能力以及數位應用能力怎麼樣把數位科技發展出來應用在各個的所謂的營業活動層面上那我們剛才提到就是說我們明年就是要設立這個金融市場發展與創新處主要是"},{"start":9065.046,"end":9066.528,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":9081.147,"end":9105.768,"text":"永續金融科那第四個就是市場發展科我想從這個名稱就可以看出來我們未來對這個市場有什麼樣的期待那跟委員做一個簡單的說明那你在114年度的預算案中這個一般行政就是說要新設立的這個我們這個創新處一般行政還有金融監理的這個計畫向下共編列了2100多萬的一個預算"},{"start":9108.67,"end":9127.549,"text":"我對於金管會要設立這個創新處的必要性還有它肩負的這個責任我表示理解那也認同說要推動數位轉型還有永續發展這個重要性但是新創的一個機構需要投入很多的經費但是希望說應該要注重說這個經費運用的效率跟它的效益"},{"start":9128.87,"end":9155.765,"text":"請教主委這兩千多萬是要花在哪裡第一個主要是一個很大一部分就是人事費我想這個就是人事聘人就是錢第二個就是他有新的處需要新的辦公處所我們花了一千多萬就是要裝潢那個二十幾位同仁的這些辦公室跟辦公設備採購這些辦公設備但是我跟主委強調因為還是當省則省我們現在看到很多預算都非常不合理那我當然知道我們主委"},{"start":9157.405,"end":9180.222,"text":"應該是會嚴格把關嚴格審核每一筆經費的必要性跟合理性我們要拒絕不必要的開銷那也期望說金管會在推動創新處的同時有效的來控制經費的支出做得多用得少確保每份資金都可以發揮到它應有的價值主委我再請教主委就是虛擬貨幣市場的問題"},{"start":9183.064,"end":9194.923,"text":"那虛擬貨幣市場的監理是民眾高度關注的因為隨著市場規模越來越大然後技術發展的日新月異那金融對於這個金融市場的穩定還有民眾財產安全"},{"start":9197.752,"end":9215.345,"text":"這大家最關心了這財產安全的部分那所以我虛擬貨幣涉及的這個範疇非常的廣泛不管是資金流動、交易、監控還是境外的資金運作都對現行的監理機制這個非常大的挑戰"},{"start":9217.284,"end":9220.147,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":9237.546,"end":9252.083,"text":"去年12月就已經展開這個專案調查那發現我們國內的企業這個不管是內部控管、法規遵循方面還有客戶審查這些交易監控不足的問題你們對於有4家"},{"start":9252.964,"end":9281.921,"text":"有4家業者提出的這個罰款累計超過550萬對超過550萬這樣子做得對啦就是要這樣做但是我相信不只這樣今年我們還在持續檢查對對對不只這樣那我們要把這些害群之馬還是說這些存著僥倖心態的這些業者要嚴加的控管不可以如果業者屢勸不聽你們提出祭出罰款之後那一樣是屢勸不聽那這樣子一再一再的"},{"start":9284.753,"end":9294.465,"text":"一再的這個犯錯那對於他的內部控管還有法規遵循的部分儘管會除了罰款之外你能夠採取什麼樣更進一步的手段"},{"start":9295.197,"end":9320.971,"text":"對我想齁這個我們如果馬上有專法的話我們該有的機構管理的東西我們全部都會有那現在是以洗錢防治為主嘛那主要是未來這個專法出來以後呢他就是可以想像就是一個我們對這個機構的管理那機構包括人員發照、撤照這些都是還有一些處分都會都會完備所以主委專法速度一定要快啊所以我們現在已經在進行中"},{"start":9322.692,"end":9339.109,"text":"我們現在的草案我們在內部在密集的在討論還在討論那我們1月會對外公聽然後6月底前會送進行政院6月好那我想未來期待在開法規範還有這個教育投資人"},{"start":9340.05,"end":9352.333,"text":"這部分我相信一定要更全面的作為讓大家更清楚了解打造一個透明、公平還有穩定的一個虛擬市場的環境好不好?是,當然好,謝謝主委那我接著請洋局的莊局長委員好局長請教局長我先前這個質詢的時候就有提到因為這個防止遊戲點數詐騙的問題"},{"start":9368.24,"end":9397.338,"text":"那你們提出的方案是說回歸由發卡行來強化本身這個信用卡的一個風險控管那主委你先請回謝謝這個部分就是說你們就是說強調說就是把這個案子回歸由發卡行來控管嘛避免說他們內部的問題外部化這是你們的說法那這個部分但是你們預計說今年年底就是即將到的年底就可以上路是這樣子嗎"},{"start":9398.118,"end":9415.076,"text":"報告委員除了這個方航的控管之外因為當時遊戲業者他們也有參與這樣子的討論他們是說他們主動說願意說跟銀行之間有一個聯防的機制所以這個部分的話會繼續再討論下去還在討論對"},{"start":9417.719,"end":9440.843,"text":"所以現在是跟各大銀行溝通討論嘛還沒有訂一個期程嘛因為那個方卡機構自己的控管本來就已經有了啦他們自己內部的機制要控管其實比較容易那至於討論的沒有落實啊因為我現在不斷的接到陳情就是都一直有這些詐騙的這種行為不斷的在發生所以我要告訴你就是說"},{"start":9442.54,"end":9466.008,"text":"我接到民眾的陳情他在臉書上他在臉書上面去要去買那個火影忍者火影忍者名人的一番賞模型那個在4000多塊4700塊那對方給他一個條碼要他去超商繳款那他自己也很疑惑啊他不確定啊但是他對方一直催他說你不去繳他就賣給別人啊那他就"},{"start":9467.386,"end":9472.252,"text":"不得不只好去繳了結果繳了之後才發現說那4700塊是用來幫對方買那個娛樂城的點數娛樂城你知道嗎娛樂城"},{"start":9479.951,"end":9498.521,"text":"就是網路下注那一種有很多種娛樂城不管是賭博的還是遊戲的都是那一種當然他們付了之後就找不到人了就會放鳥了對方也不回他了所以事先去就被騙走了那他有去警局報案那報案之後也發現說對方是慣犯"},{"start":9500.382,"end":9514.435,"text":"用同樣的手法騙了很多人一樣的手法可以持續的這樣子詐騙不管那個是小錢還是大錢有這個4千7就有4萬7就有47萬就有400萬我們每天台灣目前每天受到詐騙的金額"},{"start":9516.189,"end":9540.103,"text":"好幾億啦,其實這個公布的數字是一億兩億那一年是三四百億,其實不止啦那只是冰山一角啦所以說這個部分我是想說像你們114年度的預算案銀行監禮編入了731萬7千元說目的要健全這個銀行業務的管理那我認為說這個進步的空間太大了"},{"start":9540.723,"end":9558.932,"text":"局長你有什麼看法因為時間有限你光112年的詐騙案件發生數是37000多件112年比111年比他的前一年多出了8300件征服是28.17%這個是有揭露的跟你講真的是沒揭露的很多"},{"start":9561.833,"end":9585.637,"text":"有可能是他的數倍啦所以這部分我相信是沒有這些措施我們知道監管會祭出了很多防詐打詐的措施但是我們真的是沒有得到滿意的這樣子的效果所以我們要期許這個監管會、銀行局加強這個監管的力道好不好好委員會我們會盡量對一定要落實啦愛走啦好謝謝好謝謝允寬藤委員接著我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":9595.58,"end":9596.42,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管"},{"start":9625.762,"end":9647.398,"text":"告誡戶也就是提供人頭賬戶要有地方警察機關來採取所謂的告誡處分而且限制他在五年內不得使用金融服務的部分的功能告誡戶他就變成他的他不是不能用的賬戶很難用非常難用那加上上一次為什麼會在委員會下決議就是因為"},{"start":9648.579,"end":9661.004,"text":"警示帳戶警察機關可以自行解除但是告戒戶到現在為止還是需要所謂的訴願程序那這個案子送到了地檢署"},{"start":9662.028,"end":9683.442,"text":"有人頭賬戶的時候他們就列出了告誡處分我們當然支持先做告誡的方式先讓他先讓他被警示但是解除的部分幾乎叫做困難重重簡單來說就像剛剛顏寬寬委員說的很多人他在網路上面賣東西然後東西也給了"},{"start":9685.174,"end":9713.177,"text":"買家賣家給了東西已經交出去了所以買家就找人匯了那筆錢進到他的賬戶後來才發現是這個買家去騙了別人來匯進這個賬戶也就是說這個賬戶的是網路賣家他並沒有把自己的賬號密碼交給第三人可是他就變成了告解戶那這個人他在6個月之後可能得到了不起訴處分"},{"start":9714.398,"end":9741.232,"text":"但是 主委 到現在沒有任何機制可以讓他解除告誡戶 對吧這個警示戶跟告誡戶確實不太一樣是 也就是說幾個月之後他取得了不起訴處分但是他要去取消告誡戶幾乎叫做不可能然後來上一次我們在委員會他是說因為告誡戶是一個行政處分所以當時就要30天之內提出訴願但是"},{"start":9743.493,"end":9764.15,"text":"等到不起訴處分已經是半年後的事了他沒有辦法在30天之內提起訴願所以這些告誡戶到現在為止其實非常多人在向民意代表澄清可是我上次做的互待決議就是這件事情應該要清楚的預知或告知所有可能這樣受到影響的告誡戶這些人數有多少你知道嗎"},{"start":9764.932,"end":9786.179,"text":"因為上次我有有個數據有3月應該有應該有幾十萬人是幾十萬的百姓幾十萬的沒有把賬號密碼給別人的百姓他們現在被變成告戒戶在受到這樣子的不管是懷疑也好應該是其中有部分確實是剛剛那個狀況有很多確實是所以我一直說"},{"start":9787.139,"end":9808.849,"text":"金管會對於這些告借戶我相信我們希望你們研議出一個專門的或者是有救濟的方法就是把告借戶做等級的是如果他有不起訴處分的是一種其他的狀況是一種因為他的確沒有把自己的賬號密碼給人家他也沒有把這個錢提出去給所謂的詐騙集團"},{"start":9810.12,"end":9830.458,"text":"他就是賣了一個東西他真的也付出了那個東西然後他的賬號被拿去做成詐騙的賬號雖然進到他的賬戶內他沒有領出來他也沒有交給別人但是他還是變成詐騙集團的共犯而且最後他可能變成不起訴處分書了但是這個部分沒有辦法取消他告戒戶的問題這個問題很多而且幾十萬人"},{"start":9836.483,"end":9863.434,"text":"主委不能再拖啦我們越聽越多了多到已經不知道該怎麼處理了這個我再請我們同仁來來來進一步瞭解跟所以該你請趕快找法務部找警政署是不是在警示賬戶的方式在告誡戶上面有沒有另外一個所謂的救濟的機制否則這些人到今天為止他真的就是一個受害的第三人"},{"start":9864.094,"end":9865.015,"text":"委員提供幾個個案"},{"start":9881.906,"end":9903.501,"text":"法院都幫你們做了調查了這些可以優先處理吧對對因為這個這個還牽涉到法務部因為執法是他們訂的我們會跟他聯繫來怎麼上一次委員會下附帶決議就是這個道理因為的確這些人沒有救急管道至少他才被告誡以後拿到不起訴處分書他還是沒有辦法取消他的告誡的身份這個有點離譜啊"},{"start":9905.891,"end":9933.826,"text":"我們會來跟法務部來協調看看怎麼處理另外一個問題就是上一次有一個國際的通緝犯西班牙籍的男子奧納德在我國2019年在伊拉利詐欺了10億然後後來發現他在台灣過得很舒服非常的開心最嚴重的是他竟然在台灣登記了公司還開了銀行的帳戶後來我們請銀行局去查來局長你們查的結果"},{"start":9936.161,"end":9955.448,"text":"報告委員我們總共查到有8家的銀行然後他分別有擔任負責人或有他自己本人有開戶所以因為我們查到了之後我們已經請銀行說這個人竟然已經有因為剛開始銀行是2019年他就上了新聞國際的資料庫都有"},{"start":9957.929,"end":9978.819,"text":"後來銀行也有在資料庫裡面查到有負面的新聞所以有些銀行已經做控管了在開戶的時候都沒有查是嗎這可能牽涉到也許是有資訊我現在要問的是還有沒有下一個現在所有在台灣負責人是外國人的人這些KYC都做好了嗎"},{"start":9980.549,"end":10001.268,"text":"後來我們因為這次的事件我們也有發函給各個銀行就說他們從KYC上（他們有回報現在他們清查的結果還有做相關的機制或處理了嗎?就是資料庫都設備過一次了嗎?對所以我們也會後續我們也會再請銀行說以後也要做回溯性的清查啦是以後"},{"start":10003.43,"end":10023.442,"text":"局長我要的是進度你回溯性的清查已經做了多少做了多少家做了多少人而不是只是發函你發了函他們有回函嗎有相關的統計嗎或你發現了問題要不要做一些一次的清查可以給他們時間但是不能只是發函"},{"start":10024.893,"end":10029.194,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會主管中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":10043.658,"end":10069.042,"text":"KYC不就是應該做這件事嗎我們現在的百姓不是常常收到銀行你要來更新你的資料你不更新我就要怎樣怎樣了那對這些外國尤其是可能有這種國際通緝犯的這些人他們竟然在台灣可以過得這麼爽而且發現以後才發現他開了八個銀行帳戶這麼多年我們的洗錢防治可能都淪於空談"},{"start":10070.748,"end":10072.55,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":10088.288,"end":10111.97,"text":"金融機構接下去為了國際競爭大概都會開始陸陸續續的合併現在的星光要被併但是後來賀蘭才發現這兩個銀行都沒有工會啊他們現在成立了現在在成立這是很奇怪的事啦也就是說我們看了全金聯他們的企業工會目前只有37家所以不是每個銀行都有工會是嗎"},{"start":10113.188,"end":10134.204,"text":"現在應該不是所有金融機構都有是,但是金融機構被併的時候就突然間趕快匆匆忙忙的成立工會之前包括富邦金、併購日盛金、花旗讓壽新展這些都是發生過很多的風風雨雨那之前更早的就是所謂的元大併大眾"},{"start":10135.985,"end":10165.212,"text":"這些併購已經成為常態了我們現在看到勞動部可能希望能夠訂出金融機構合併的勞工勞動權益保障的行政指引也就是說這麼多年有這麼多的機構已經併過而且問題都差不多甚至對於安置尤其是如果沒有工會的銀行對他們的勞工保障更沒有保障所以要靠這些所謂的權金聯會其他的工會來幫他的忙所以主委我只想問金融合併是金管會支持的"},{"start":10165.572,"end":10171.838,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":10182.569,"end":10196.843,"text":"如果可以的話我們應該鼓勵各金融機構成立工會而不是到要合併的時候才赫然發現他沒工會趕快來成立然後工會沒有運作過其實很難達到一定的成果啊你同意嗎"},{"start":10197.703,"end":10201.565,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":10218.609,"end":10223.815,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":10233.939,"end":10262.836,"text":"我想這應該是勞動部我們站在金融監督的角度你們不反對嘛所以也希望銀行不要去阻止他們銀行的內部員工我們不會阻止這是他們的權益而且要保障他們成立工會的權益那我們是希望有一個公平的這樣一個交易所以我們希望你們現在就協助相關的銀行員工他們將來除了審查之外我希望工會的成立還有這個所謂合併的時候權益保障的行政執意金管會要大力介入好嗎"},{"start":10263.956,"end":10291.975,"text":"我們大概會按照我們的怎麼樣盡量保障員工的權益因為他們才是保障所有利害關係人都是我們的職責好所以我希望這個勞動部的行政指引希望金管會能夠熱烈的參與而且聽取所謂工會的意見他們會邀我們參與啦好謝謝主委好謝謝黃珊珊委員接著我們請謝榮介委員謝榮介謝榮介謝榮介不在接著我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":10301.594,"end":10302.443,"text":"主席有請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":10305.593,"end":10330.949,"text":"委員好主委好主委這兩天其實有一些意外的插曲就有關於這個這個融資專法要不要制定的問題聽說有人去進行遊說還說要等到財委會召開兩次公聽會之後那我就請問一下主委這個問題當然行政委員有關心過到底是在法案提出之前還是法案提出之後才有召開公聽會"},{"start":10332.405,"end":10353.699,"text":"是因為我們現在這個要根據那個金保法第三條我們要公告所以我們在公告之前那上次開協調會是希望我們多多跟其他業者能夠溝通完畢把他們一律溝通清楚今天假設如果法案已經形成的話沒話說啦講白點可是法案還沒形成之前就要召開這個"},{"start":10355.02,"end":10379.811,"text":"公聽會的話老實講有一種主粹修法的先行我再跟你講一個數據好了那個事情在4月25號的時候中租抵合還明明對外公開講說他們支持融資專法就私底下做這種事情根本是個主粹修法這基本上是兩面守法表裡不一樣沒有真正想要被納管所以這種心態可以你要想清楚"},{"start":10380.811,"end":10407.399,"text":"那如果業者這種心態的話就是既有不受政府管轄的情況底下他對他們對自由啊獲利的空間最大要不是我們揭發幾次的話他們會自我收斂嗎會有自律公約嗎所以說呢自律之外還真的需要他你知道真的很誇張到現在為止中蘇抵合還有在推廣啊你只要來我這邊啊要接受我服務貸款的你還要買重安家保健食品"},{"start":10408.939,"end":10414.24,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分．有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":10438.775,"end":10457.707,"text":"所以借個九一六千塊還要跟他買保健食品然後罵完之後有一些自律公約那自律公約標的在哪裡只有中古車跟先買後付有自律啊然後最近他們對外宣布說呢克訴案件的降了三成多"},{"start":10459.343,"end":10486.848,"text":"主要是在中古車啊又不是其他我再跟你講還有哪些爭議行為第一個暴力討債結合黑道第二個放高利第三個呢最近有一個台版的地面師勾結這些融資公司來騙3億元就是詐騙所以手段還有第四個去成立所謂代辦公司標的上最受爭議的最近最受爭議的是什麼"},{"start":10487.668,"end":10503.781,"text":"就是土建榮嘛不是嗎那我問一下主委嘛關於這個自律公約類似這些不當手段的禁止或者呢這個除了先買後付中古車之外有沒有可能把土建榮部分也納入約束之中主委請"},{"start":10504.443,"end":10519.95,"text":"有關土建融的部分我想委員應該也知道我們在12月13號我們就發布了一個新的函令特別針對他們這個土建融部分假設這個資金是來自於金融機構的話我們希望他能夠救援控管"},{"start":10520.25,"end":10544.379,"text":"那畢竟現在融資公司他現在是因為我們做代放業務即便我們未來已經保法那樣金融消費者保護法金融消費者主要是針對我說你是他律啦對他律啦我是說你是不是要自律的部分呢這再要求一下那個工會部分應該他是等於說應該是他會有一些自律規範我們會透過管道因為我們來請他針對一些爭議事項好幾樣喔好幾樣喔"},{"start":10546.28,"end":10571.472,"text":"本席都幫你整理好了你應該找他再來談一下找工會再來談一下這些自律者的項目增加方法手段不當的手段也應該予以排除這才是自律嘛否則的話形成這麼多爭議這是第一個第二個對現在自律公會成員自律而無自律者他們是什麼約束處置你也要了解啊不是嗎對我們對相關的自律"},{"start":10572.812,"end":10589.582,"text":"處理當然自律他不是法律啦但有些他可以連接到法律還是有些裁罰所以需要你去他律嘛所以你應該再找公會來有沒有可能當然我們基於假設跟我們的業務有關我們還是會跟他來溝通這些都有關爭議還不斷"},{"start":10592.664,"end":10602.29,"text":"爭議不斷不要每次報一件我們再來處理一件嘛我就把案整理好了所以我請主委再找工會談一談再把自律的部分好好處理一下好不好"},{"start":10605.541,"end":10610.404,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":10627.416,"end":10654.165,"text":"剛剛就是說我們現在約束的對象主要我知道你現在是抓到放小可是你要去想一想你剛剛講說你答詢其他委員說大概有1000家或2000家經濟部工商系統超過了說好像有11萬家好 不管幾家工會只有40家三大就只有30家你現在只有約束這三大工會的話不要形成所謂的公平或不公平你搞不好會養出另外一個新的三大"},{"start":10656.476,"end":10680.631,"text":"你知道我意思嗎?就下面?對啊!你如果養出一個新的三大,我們現在這三個三大把它壓制,三大變三中,三中又變三小,那結果呢?養出一個新的三大,會不會造成這種狀況?其實我們的想法就是說,其實我們納管是因為對社會影響層面的考慮,因為我們上市的公司,租賃公司還有四家,除了大家常講的這三家,還有一家"},{"start":10681.812,"end":10693.617,"text":"那另外的話就是我們其實上也不是說其他不納管我們接下來第二階段我們就會希望說金融機構轉投資這些大概14家也能夠納管那接下來才是3加1"},{"start":10695.305,"end":10698.508,"text":"總金額金融機構受信的總共2484億．販款部分1686億．不動產部分高達559億．這個部分換算起來超過31%等於是超過72條之2的部分你知道嗎．最近還有怎樣你知道嗎．"},{"start":10718.072,"end":10730.025,"text":"最近還頻頻去打電話給客戶說以前的客戶都說你要不要車貸現在說你要不要房貸你要不要正貸還一直在擴大這個內容在挑戰政府威信在跟政府作對"},{"start":10732.366,"end":10758.494,"text":"你越約束他,他越這樣處理那到底融資公司會不會形成一個破口那我們就來算總額嘛我們要算總額總額上以目前上一次央軍局長答覆是26.7%非常接近這個警戒值是28到28.5%那你如果換算下去的話我們目前內政部的資料到10月的話剩餘的預售屋還有11萬筆"},{"start":10763.539,"end":10770.23,"text":"7,815這種情況底下假設一筆貸款額度是一千萬的話還需要資金是一千一兆1.178兆"},{"start":10773.444,"end":10797.68,"text":"我換算了一下如果1.178兆的話放在這個總量管制當中的金額的算法的話還要是會讓整個這個警罪水位破表會超過28.5會超過28.5我再跟你講一個數字還會另外一個破表是什麼上次有講說呢把一些排除條款的這個金額拉進去的話一樣局長告訴我29%"},{"start":10800.103,"end":10803.797,"text":"如果說把這個未來的預售屋的這個金額再放下去的話會破30欸"},{"start":10807.208,"end":10833.65,"text":"會破30欸所以以後這些預售在交屋的時候要貸款可能就會貸不到款不是嗎?會不會變這樣子?跟委員報告其實我們也有跟內政部有密切的去收集這些資料我們也對明年有做預估那我們有有比較不一樣的數據啦我想我們可以再跟委員報告這內容可是主委我跟你說現在房價很清楚了量縮了對不對"},{"start":10835.171,"end":10861.498,"text":"對亮說而且現在貸款也在下降也在下降很明顯幾個數字都是這樣子我們每個禮拜監控全國的貸款金那我就問你亮說現在還是有一些AV約的行為還有一些低首付的狀況一些手法還有附加電手法越來越多還辦座談會在造勢你要知道這種情況底下買氣還是沒有增加的情況就就要一族鬼了"},{"start":10862.378,"end":10888.621,"text":"那你看起來有沒有可能什麼時候跌沒有我想齁我們不對那個房價因為我們是管控銀行的風險不要說跌嘛你是不是要先讓買屋者稍微止步一下嘛沒有我想現在未來很多變數比如說貸款就是一個變數但是我們有每週在監控我們也對明年後年做預估我想這部分我們大概都會嚴密的跟財政部跟央行一起來"},{"start":10889.862,"end":10909.027,"text":"監控這件事情沒有主委我跟你講這有雙重破口的可能性然後建商還是不斷用其他預收還是用其他的手法一直在增加也就是說這個11萬戶還有可能會再增加然後增加的情況底下你還有一個問題你還會形成另一個破口就什麼就周轉金"},{"start":10910.387,"end":10925.575,"text":"你有沒有把周轉金的金額清楚的掌握多少金額有,那個剛才帶放裡面其實剛剛比如說對融資公司其實大部分都是周轉金沒有,沒有那是融資公司我是說一般的建商來說你還是有周轉金資金有,有那個那個我們都有針對這兩個分類"},{"start":10927.496,"end":10946.802,"text":"這個機制當中你如果沒有一清清楚的掌握的話它的融資那個周轉金會轉向另外一種形式的一種貸款又形成一種破口再加上最近的房地產增加當初它貸到的周轉金可能是5億我現在房子又增加我又再跟你要求一次再增貸"},{"start":10948.503,"end":10969.576,"text":"我拿以前舊的這個標的以前10年前我現在房地產增加我現在如果說你現在我現在金額不夠我又增貸那這種情況底下那不是沒完沒了了嗎主委我們在這一波裡面我們有跟銀行做一些結構性的調整我想委員都知道調整是什麼"},{"start":10970.796,"end":10993.012,"text":"結構與調整希望把它轉向在比如說那個土建農部分還有包括相關對建築這邊的貸款我們能夠轉向我們一般民生的貸款我想這個成效已經也發生了因為資產太多了嘛 建商手頭資產太多了嘛它以前是低價嘛 現在是高價嘛我只是這次資產重新評估我又給你貸款一次那不就真貸了嗎"},{"start":10994.233,"end":11020.457,"text":"對不對那當然現在就是說那增待的同時又給你多要周轉金那不就是又變成一個新的缺口了嗎主委現在據我們了解銀行是它是個總量在控制就是說不是只有土建融其他周轉金它是總量在控制是啦我就是做一個提醒啦是是謝謝不要變成說我們看到一個缺口之後要堵這個又形成一個缺口那這個缺口又沒有堵起來又變成另一個新的缺口本期在慎重提醒你啦有機會要再跟公會談一談啦謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":11024.099,"end":11041.278,"text":"好 謝謝郭國鴻委員謝謝接著我們請林思明委員林思明林思明林思明不在麥玉珍委員麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌不在好 我們休息10分鐘讓大家休息一下"},{"start":11756.741,"end":11758.182,"text":"主席主席麻煩請我們金管會主委"},{"start":11778.397,"end":11805.064,"text":"現在真的大家對於金管會期待非常高那尤其是在打擊金融犯罪金融詐騙這一塊那現在我本席上午也看到是說您有針對這個內湖1200萬元的這個詐騙輕生案的部分您有說做相關的一個瞭解那我是更想要請教一下到底這個案件裡面在銀行端的部分或是說有這些相關還有什麼可以在更精進的地方"},{"start":11805.694,"end":11825.675,"text":"我想因為任何一個案子我們都非常的關切跟注意因為我們其實我們在建構整個金融主柵網的時候任何一個案例都給我們很寶貴的經驗去檢視我們這些作為是怎麼樣比如說我跟委員簡單報因為詳細的內容我不方便講太多比如說"},{"start":11826.736,"end":11851.981,"text":"裡面有一種做法可能他是利用比如說是網銀小額轉帳從個人這樣轉帳我們過去對那個網銀的小額轉帳是比較沒有戒心比如說五萬十萬比如我從我的戶頭轉給這些帳戶有沒有因為我們過去網銀就是非約轉帳戶就幾萬幾萬可以轉到一些戶頭去這個個人在操作的部分我們發覺說這也是變成他們在使用的一個方法"},{"start":11852.381,"end":11853.622,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":11863.85,"end":11883.323,"text":"主段金流嘛,不要有金流留下記錄,是不是?面交,就是他直接錢不用匯的,直接交給車手或交給這個因為他知道金融機構現在越來越麻煩,他會問一大堆所以像這些東西,我們也都在不斷的在精進我們的想法還有靈慧關懷的部分,因為他們現在很多教戰守則做得非常的精細了"},{"start":11884.204,"end":11908.582,"text":"所以這部分我們要想辦法從比如說這個案例能夠想到一些問題能夠告訴我們其他的第一線銀行員增加一些警戒我想這些都是我們從很多的地方來看到因為它整個詐騙是一個非常非常複雜的一個過程但是我們就希望從中間得到一些教訓對 但是很明顯的其實銀行的很多行員現在也是叫苦連天"},{"start":11909.623,"end":11929.889,"text":"地線的銀行行員他們也覺得是說他們有苦難言我們真的給他很大的鼓勵已經給予很多的一個溝通或是關懷甚至已經提醒了但是如果說沒有辦法那到最後他有些時候銀行他可能會怕得罪客戶他這時候通常會請我們的警察過來警察過來通常很多人就醒過來了"},{"start":11931.437,"end":11960.192,"text":"所以本席從過去到現在其實特別提到是說最重點還是在於是帳戶有一些警示有一些異樣的帳戶或是說特別獨特或是說特別異常的帳戶這些應該要有一個示警的一個作用那如果說錢都還是在我們台灣境內的銀行裡面的話相對好追蹤但只要錢一流出到國外或是說一流到這個虛擬貨幣的話其實就相對難追蹤在這一點的部分有沒有什麼更精進的作為"},{"start":11961.573,"end":11981.274,"text":"這個其實可以未來做一個思考啦因為這個是最難的部分因為金流速度非常的快而且你也不知道他的對象因為除非你已經被警示你當然知道他是在哪裡但是我覺得這個真的是要我們大家來想想辦法因為我們也看到很多的這個詐騙會得逞他就錢就留在海外我們就斷線了"},{"start":11982.535,"end":11987.679,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會主管中央財政委員會"},{"start":12012.755,"end":12036.46,"text":"防詐的一個準備那我請教就是說我們在譬如說匯款的狀況我現在沒有約定賬戶部分我匯款可能匯款50萬100萬都會被警示甚至說都要再提出相關的證明那一樣嘛就是說如果說今天匯款到國外的賬戶或說到虛擬的賬戶的時候有沒有這樣的一個金額的一個限制甚至更加嚴謹來阻擋詐騙集團的一個取取款的一個"},{"start":12039.989,"end":12062.888,"text":"榮譽度各位委員報告就是我們現在不是11月30日要通過那個打詐事法裡面有關這個打詐專法裡面第8條到第11條的規定裡面其中有一個裡面有個條文就說他要把那所有的疑似樣態對不對我們就把它公佈就就把它揭示出來像剛剛講的說但是這個樣態我們現在揭露很多這沒有錯這從過去的經驗但這個是"},{"start":12065.33,"end":12090.896,"text":"我們要持續的滾動才能知道他新的方法這部分我們是我們不管是銀行局或銀行公會都持續的在做這個深化因為累積很多個案我們現在還有很多銀行是採用所謂AI他們就利用那個數據從已經詐騙的數據的資料裡面去做一個模型去預測這個帳戶未來產生詐騙的可能性有多高做那個事情的攔阻這是未來我們需要要朝這方向來走科技打仗"},{"start":12092.477,"end":12110.397,"text":"主委但是本席的問題還是在於是你要設定相關的門檻不要說到最後讓大家覺得是說我們一般的用戶使用都非常困難我印象中如果說你沒有去設定的話我光自己要提款提個20萬可能一天就有上線了是"},{"start":12110.717,"end":12132.938,"text":"那結果沒有想到如果說詐騙權他要轉到國外或是說轉到虛擬帳戶的時候反而他的相對來講比一般我要使用我自己帳戶都還要容易那這樣就不對這個我們現在已經有要求每個銀行對這個疑似帳戶都要做控管這沒有問題只是說我們控管的方法有沒有真的達到全面的效果真的要好好的再來"},{"start":12134.579,"end":12155.253,"text":"所以這在給本席相關的資料你們現在到底做什麼樣一個程度那以及你們的一個預防措施好不好那最後我也要提一下是說現在看到這樣子一個詐騙的部分因為之前我也在數位發展部裡面也有要求那你們也有講到是說在這一次其實也看得出來說像這一次這個內湖的一個詐騙案件他其實還是從臉書廣告"},{"start":12157.614,"end":12183.509,"text":"投放、投資群組過來那其次也是一個老問題因為數位發展部他們自己提出來的詐騙APP裡面所謂的廣告樣態90%都是從臉書、Meta這樣的一個母企業或是他衍生的社群媒體平台來的那一樣我們現在針對這個源頭管理的部分也不要所有事情全都是讓銀行第一線我覺得銀行有些時候他們的主要業務也不是"},{"start":12184.728,"end":12203.424,"text":"當然協助政府來打擊詐騙但是銀行本身來講他們也覺得是說他們是金融服務啊那源頭管理如果說一直沒有辦法停止的話那怎麼樣有辦法去嚇阻或是降低這個詐騙臉書的部分現在數位發展部是說他現在投放廣告要實名制這是一個讓"},{"start":12204.565,"end":12212.273,"text":"追得到源頭但另外一個部分當這樣子一個投資詐騙廣告一直存出不窮的時候金管會能夠有什麼樣的作為?我們其實我們有一個團隊專門來收報這些我們已經收報6萬多個這個內容我們每天"},{"start":12221.303,"end":12245.437,"text":"每天都有這個專業團在收報我們希望縮短他被接觸的時間然後通知Meta他們或是相關的趕快下架因為他收到我們通知24小時就要下架我們盡量去縮短這個時間我們現在正在做這件事情什麼時候建制的這個團隊是外包還是我們自己今晚會內部我們是今晚會外包委託我們的周邊單位來做這件事情周邊單位"},{"start":12246.892,"end":12275.073,"text":"交易所、匯買還有我們的工會這幾個期貨集交所之類的6個單位是不是可以提供相關資料給本席參考?從什麼時候開始的這些單位?這個一直持續在做但是我們要持續優化那個作為因為你要去爬這些廣告他們會不斷變形比如說前面是用名人接下來送名人書其實很多種方法在改變所以這個都要持續改變這個現在進行是"},{"start":12276.974,"end":12279.756,"text":"主席 各位委員 主席可不可以請彭主委主委請"},{"start":12298.823,"end":12318.801,"text":"黃主任你好你好你一直在推動臺灣成為亞太的資產管理中心現在進度不曉得怎麼樣現在其實我們就我們第一階段推出的五大策略16項措施都依序在進行中比如說我們現在具體的一些做法跟委員簡單報告一下"},{"start":12320.342,"end":12321.442,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會有"},{"start":12337.228,"end":12362.743,"text":"那我想再來就是我們在那個壯大股市計畫裡面還有就是雙掛牌的部分日方已經具體的回應我們大概今年第三季就可以看到我們的ETF雙掛牌跟日本雙掛牌還有就是我們的兆元投資計畫就是擴大國內的資金投入公建增加相關的這些金融商品的部分也都在依序推動那這個比特幣的ETF什麼時候會推出"},{"start":12363.451,"end":12383.615,"text":"我們現在是開放專業投資人用付委託的方式去購買這個比特幣ETF我們上次有答應我們這個立法院是我們觀察期6個月以後再來看他執行成效接下來看看要怎麼樣去進行下一步所以金管會對於虛擬貨幣現在的態度比較開放比較友善的我們是謹慎友善"},{"start":12390.219,"end":12413.171,"text":"警慎、友善那會支持嗎?就警慎友善警慎友善我記得有多次在這邊談過當初如果有聽我的建議央行那時候6千塊美金現在已經超過10萬塊然後所有聽央行講話的全部都翻車全部都翻船"},{"start":12414.229,"end":12440.083,"text":"所以其實另外一個表徵就是扼殺了很多年輕人他賺錢的機會因為在整個資源上來講這個傳統或者是一些電子業這些產業已經被這些老人全部都佔據了年輕人是沒有出頭的機會所以這幾年出現了航海王 對不對"},{"start":12440.95,"end":12467.799,"text":"因為老人所以的投信這些老傢伙沒有人會去看好這個東西嘛這年輕人他願意去嘗試去拼所以當初如果說我們主管機關的態度是謹慎又開放又小心又建議他只要投資一萬就可以變成多少主委你知道嗎"},{"start":12468.993,"end":12475.937,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央政府總預算案"},{"start":12489.147,"end":12493.672,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份"},{"start":12511.601,"end":12533.153,"text":"比較久了大概6年前如果台灣是採取開放的態度我相信台灣有很多年輕人在這一波虛擬貨幣的發展他們是跟上潮流的那你看川普上去了以後他改變他的思維美國會不會把虛擬貨幣、虛擬資產成為他外匯準備的一個儲備因為我看那個鮑爾是說他們現在沒有這個計畫"},{"start":12540.222,"end":12559.444,"text":"有在討論了對 他們說那個他們的FED現在沒有是 我希望說主委是用比較開闊的心態因為香港現在比較勢微了那新加坡就是一直搶搶滾替代了很多的"},{"start":12559.804,"end":12562.286,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":12573.696,"end":12589.806,"text":"未來整個亞洲金融的交易中心會怎麼樣的移轉?台灣應該要掌握什麼契機?我想資金有很多面向有不同的資金他會駐足在不同的地方"},{"start":12592.627,"end":12608.237,"text":"臺灣是具有投資機會還有很多新創潛力有深度的市場所以我們是希望吸引這樣的資金在臺灣來進行管理這部分我覺得臺灣的努力"},{"start":12613.094,"end":12625.643,"text":"以10年5年以來的發展,台灣確實深度跟廣度上已經有很大的改變所以我覺得未來台灣是有可能在整個亞洲的資產管理的部分佔有一席之地"},{"start":12626.417,"end":12644.532,"text":"我們希望說一棒接一棒各個是好棒在場有我們黃天牧前主委也在這個地方過去黃主委他奠定了一個基礎大概金融圈的感覺就是穩擦穩打很保守那也不是說不好啦"},{"start":12645.453,"end":12665.933,"text":"有好比如說金融銀行的這個獲利以及證券相關這個今年大概都已經破紀錄了接近要上兆表示這個金融圈大家都是過得快樂的日子那過去穩定的基礎現在銀行的預放大概多少0.160.16保險的部分"},{"start":12671.545,"end":12683.081,"text":"保險的部分這個低於資本市儲率的現在還有幾家現在目前一家就一家有沒有機會救起來他們在努力中"},{"start":12684.684,"end":12711.446,"text":"銀行證券,證券也不錯啊在過去的努力也破了兩萬點所以這個基礎都已經打好了現在接棒就要需要更多的開放更多的點子那彭主委你是點子王啊沒有所以我想說你穩健是穩健啦希望可以積極那你現在看韓國啊韓國最近的資金啊大幅的外商大竄頭是為什麼"},{"start":12713.106,"end":12731.814,"text":"我也看到就是我們亞洲股市裡面大部分都是上漲比如說像台灣跟日本是大概是兩個那接下來後來香港那個韓國是下跌的我想這個他有很比較複雜的這樣一個結構因為他戒嚴啊那可能有一段長的趨勢台灣有沒有可能會搞戒嚴"},{"start":12734.431,"end":12760.116,"text":"抱歉我沒辦法回答沒辦法回答好那萬一萬一我們當然是不希望看到戒嚴可是如果有人心存歹念想要戒嚴的話一搞戒嚴的話對於金融機構會有什麼影響我們所有的企業所有民眾的資金會被凍結這個看我想如果說以韓國的經驗不管它時間多短但是產生這個資本市場波動已經大家都看到了"},{"start":12761.209,"end":12786.594,"text":"如果這個戒嚴發生在臺灣的話對於這些金融業產生的影響是什麼這個我不做預期不過我想我們從韓國的經驗看到一定會有一些影響好啦我們希望說不要看到戒嚴啦因為你的資金可能就限制外匯管制整個就是大概金融就封掉了另外剛剛講到證券這個當沖降稅來得及來不及"},{"start":12790.277,"end":12817.232,"text":"我們當然我們現在所有都準備如果說真的能夠當中降稅通過的話那就現況當然問題沒有完全沒有我也期待說我們還有幾次大會的時間如果能夠通過的話對台灣的經濟的穩定還是非常非常有幫助因為我們過去經驗曾經有一次有討論到這個問題就市場產生一些不安的波動那實際上我想這部分我們有過去的經驗我們還是期待能夠"},{"start":12817.992,"end":12843.752,"text":"我們大家能夠在這個會期比如在今年12月、13月、14月能夠通過這個部分那順利當然前面有委員質詢我們該做的準備我們一個也不會少萬一來不及怎麼辦那就按照回到我們法規的法律的狀態就沒有減半科增我們就開始要花入一些一些的人力時間成本去改變這些我看那個張局長很緊張"},{"start":12845.356,"end":12855.554,"text":"因為你這一把熱火很熱的一個股市熱絡的情況突然啪降溫那萬一降溫的話"},{"start":12857.099,"end":12886.317,"text":"想要再恢復會不會很困難所以說希望委員能夠多多支持讓他趕快通過現在日均量多少現在大概4200多億4000多那當沖的部分佔了多少4成4成喔對你4000多4624如果怕掉下來的話剩2000多億那影響是很大的那確實當沖降稅在很多我們在審查這時候呢他對於我們的成交量的增加是非常明顯的"},{"start":12888.045,"end":12899.734,"text":"我們希望說迎向未來台灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心勢必要參考一下臨近國家的情況"},{"start":12900.8,"end":12923.869,"text":"把韓國的一些資源他們的一些流向可以導入台灣香港的金融地位看我們台灣能不能取代謝謝謝謝委員的期許另外最後一句就是現在討論的這個租賃公司那租賃公司現在的糾紛案件到底有幾件"},{"start":12925.147,"end":12951.564,"text":"因為現在我們沒有在受理這一塊因為那個現在的消費糾紛還是回到原來的我們的消保體制假設未來納入金保法以後呢我們在平益中心就會有明確的統計那你不曉得幾件你為什麼要急著要去管理這些公司這倒不是因為我們看到社會上很多的紛爭而且我們過去一直相信相同的行為要受到相同的類似的管理我們已經看到就是說"},{"start":12952.304,"end":12971.73,"text":"他們在做很多這些融資待放的時候我覺得這是社會關注的一題其實這本來不是金管會的所俠業務我們覺得說社會對這個期待我們認為說假設能夠以現在金融消保法這樣來管理說不定是一個解決現在對行為你如果要管的話請問租賃公司有幾千"},{"start":12972.521,"end":13000.253,"text":"現在我剛剛講它的界限是模糊的但是我們租賃公會裡面大概40家40家租賃公司一共有七、八千家就看你看剛剛的數字你如果要管的話那你應該全部都要那樣管啊你怎麼就管幾家現在說管三家那你知道上市的一共有幾家租賃公司上市四家四家那你管三家另外一家不管我們是分階段我剛剛講過我們是分階段因為我們這是一個試行的過程"},{"start":13001.013,"end":13002.694,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":13017.64,"end":13037.511,"text":"十四家所以每一家都要列管不是 它其實上就是只針對它的有金融消費者的爭議那一塊納管不是 我們一直都說金融有消費嘛我就問你說那金融消費有爭議的有幾件我剛才跟委員報告過因為它現在不是我們納管我們沒有去統計這個我問工會 工會說剩不到三、四件"},{"start":13038.791,"end":13040.573,"text":"有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有"},{"start":13068.712,"end":13084.973,"text":"你要管,你要管得有意義,而且是一致性的當然,剛剛講,我剛剛也跟委員前面也報告過只要這個產業是一個非常非常明確的界限,那當然是但是剛剛講,我們從早上到現在,有人說一千家,有人說六千家,有人講"},{"start":13085.794,"end":13098.653,"text":"其實各位就知道那個是現在沒有一個成型的一個產業我們只能是從他那個業務登記上面去推你可能是主委那你這個管完以後下一個你要再管的就是那個地下錢莊"},{"start":13099.819,"end":13121.957,"text":"沒有 這個不是 我們金融監管有它一定的界限地下錢抓在下面也好 當鋪因為它是一個生態的關係啦如果一般企業它借得到 它直接就跟銀行借啊就是因為銀行借不到 它才會跑去刺激市場對 所以我們才會差異化去處理這個會有它的道理存在"},{"start":13123.058,"end":13138.278,"text":"委員非常內行就是說我們對他的管理是比較低度只做行為管理就是消費行為管理就做一件事情我還是提醒你就是說不要用大砲打小鳥也不會我們剛剛跟委員報這差異化已經我們不是用銀行的角度去管理他"},{"start":13139.226,"end":13166.364,"text":"不是我們是用差異銀行是有機構管理跟消費行為管理他只針對那個部分的個人的消費金融要滿足那幾個要件比如契約公平那個廣告核實然後像比如說KYC那個就是很很基本的這樣而已啊所以我覺得時間關係是是是資料在後補好了是沒問題謝謝謝謝委員謝謝盧文才委員謝謝接著我們請葉元芝委員"},{"start":13177.084,"end":13205.667,"text":"主委好,你們今晚會的辦公地點應該在我們板橋吧是板橋,高鐵站樓上我知道,但是包括剛剛大家提關心的亞洲資產管理中心包括探權交易所全部都移到高雄去設立那你在板橋你應該知道我們板橋其實最近發展也不錯不管,也都有相關的條件為什麼你什麼都想到高雄啊,就不會想到你的所在地板橋"},{"start":13206.768,"end":13227.796,"text":"沒問題啊昨天那個我想那個前天院長在參加那個活動他在講說他希望我們這個所謂的金融資產管理專業能夠遍地開花嘛各個縣市如果說願意提出他們的特色那我們金管會都很樂意的去協助跟配合所以你現在設到高雄都是高雄提出來的需求是不是"},{"start":13228.436,"end":13250.133,"text":"那為什麼高雄永遠都知道你們要幹嘛沒有沒有他們是兩三年前我們他們就已經在規劃這件事情然後你們就好我是建議啦因為相信我不需要去跟您強調板橋的優勢啦因為你所在地就在那邊啦希望說你在設立相關的中心的時候未來可能有別的東西的時候可以考慮一下你們辦公的所在地"},{"start":13252.595,"end":13272.718,"text":"那第二個我想問一個問題是之前啊郭智輝經濟部長郭智輝說雲豹能源炒股票故意放假消息出去然後股價就漲得非常多然後後來證交所有講說如果金茶有這個問題的話就有刑責要移送減掉那現在已經一個月了我不知道茶怎麼樣"},{"start":13274.113,"end":13290.113,"text":"現在的話可不可以請鎮議員我們確實交易所按照程序在辦理我請我們的鎮議局局長跟您簡單回答跟委員報告這個事情其實在鎮交所已經進行查處了所以現在的狀況是怎樣"},{"start":13291.725,"end":13315.922,"text":"查處的結果認為是說他的資訊沒有控管得很好誰的資訊沒有控管得很好銀豹公司對重大訊息的控制沒有控制得很好對重大訊息也就是說他公司對外發布的訊息會讓人家聯想說你是不是有跟所以你的意思是說確實銀豹公司有跟別人講說那個回答要來這邊設廠然後需要多少電"},{"start":13317.283,"end":13340.078,"text":"不是因為是他回答並沒有跟他口頭承諾他只是他們的發言人對外講的快over所以是他們確實發言人對外講什麼可不可以講明白一點也就是說他們對外說他們跟那些公司有做聯繫事實上公司並沒有正面回覆回答是不是對對沒錯所以他們有報他們有講假消息"},{"start":13340.798,"end":13366.594,"text":"因為是說外面的媒體看到他有對外類似這種言論所以我們後來請公司對外發言要審慎審慎所以確實雲包公司有對外發言不審慎然後造成股票的波動然後所以郭志威講的是正確的是這個意思嗎是的郭志威講的是正確那如果郭志威講的是正確雲包公司確實有問題然後影響股價的話那你們的你們現在怎麼處理營收減掉是不是"},{"start":13367.455,"end":13392.986,"text":"沒有,那個就是證交所對公司作為警告甚至要發言他所以只有警告警告對發言他,對他處罰有處罰,但是因為當時你講說要移送檢調啊所以有刑責啊,涉及證交法如果查屬是屬實的話,我們就會移送的話你現在不是在查嗎?我現在就在問你查是屬實他查的結果,但是他另外的發言沒有就是查的不屬實,不是屬實,所以不用移送"},{"start":13393.886,"end":13407.783,"text":"但是呢他發言卻有不恰當所以警告他他發言精準是這個意思嗎是的就他還沒有到不實但是發言確實有讓大家誤會所以就用警告的方式是的就是高高舉起輕輕放下"},{"start":13408.632,"end":13425.67,"text":"那再來我問一下主委因為最近金管會感覺上政策上面是推廣ETF說明年又要推什麼新的ETF然後有很多新型的商品出來主動式ETF主動式ETF但因為今年"},{"start":13426.823,"end":13443.116,"text":"一開始的時候ETF非常的熱門尤其是那種月配息的那一種所以很多人去買但是有一些人到像年尾的時候發現被套牢了然後那現在ETF的規模是多大整個市場的規模是多大現在大概是國內應該是6兆左右6兆左右"},{"start":13443.877,"end":13460.93,"text":"好那之前的ETF有的已經出現被套牢狀況好像已經不是大家一開始講的那個樣子然後呢又要一直要推新的ETF出來我想問一下金管會這邊有沒有什麼對於ETF的在行銷上面對投資人的保護的部分有什麼措施嗎其實啊剛剛講我們"},{"start":13463.075,"end":13485.178,"text":"推動商品多元化這是我們一個很重要當然是穩健剛剛比如說我們對ETF如果委員有注意前陣子我們對那個廣告網紅這些東西我們都有定下規矩而且我們也裁罰了還有就像我們對這個ETF的這個誤導的部分我們在整個整個行銷管理上面是真的有在發布一些規定來管理因為"},{"start":13486.139,"end":13507.075,"text":"畢竟剛剛講說過去我們都是被動式的ETF那現在市場上呢我們希望它能夠增加一個主動式ETF當然我們在做交易宣導跟這個在銷售管控上我們一定會嚴格的把關一定會但是因為我聽不出來怎麼把關啊可不可以因為時間關係沒關係時間關係你再補一個書面報告給我好不好因為好不好然後最後一個問題就好"},{"start":13508.496,"end":13533.026,"text":"因為我知道金管會現在也很認真在打詐有一個措施就是請民間的銀行不要對那個社群平台下廣告那請問一下現在民營銀行的配合程度是怎麼樣那現在是因為他們銀行公會理事長他們自發性的我們其實上他們是自發性的去那很多的銀行大家都有配合就對了其實應該也蠻多金融機構配合但我們金融機構的加速範圍非常廣"},{"start":13534.326,"end":13560.242,"text":"各自有不同的做法這不是你們主推的啦是他們主動啦這個是因為我們不會去介入他們的廣告政策這不在我們的監理範圍是他們自覺說他們的他們的名字常會被炸彈用他就希望用這樣放置簽的方式那是他們的自發性的行為他們自發性的行為對金管會還是會拿很多其他的方法來主張那當然我們在政策上我是覺得說用這種方法當然可能一定有效果但那個效果不是"},{"start":13561.062,"end":13574.352,"text":"我們是多元方法因為詐騙極端下的廣告更多所以可能要找很多更積極的方法出來當然我們持續的在想方設法解決這問題謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝葉燕姿委員楊前委員提書面諮詢然後曾振淺委員曾振淺、曾振淺、曾振淺委員不在"},{"start":13593.145,"end":13615.143,"text":"我們今天登記的發言的委員都已經詢答完畢然後本次會議做如下決議說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請今晚會以一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者重啟約定委員楊瓊應所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":13618.369,"end":13620.44,"text":"並且今晚會用書面答覆"},{"start":13622.674,"end":13649.512,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算有關金管會銀行局、證期局、保險局、檢查局收支部分及附屬單位預算有關金管會主管營業部分、中央存款保險有限公司及非營業部分、特別收入基金、金融監督管理基金、信託基金、保險業務發展基金均另折旗繼續審查本次會議議程已經進行完畢堂友不在場委員不提書面"},{"start":13650.492,"end":13652.233,"text":"諮詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請醫事人員協助處理。"}]}},{"id":"16390","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16390","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d19061065897f096c90a0be61fea1481878081dad70f87c46bb71c5d4503cfdb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。\n二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。\n三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預算案。\n四、繼續審查114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案。\n五、繼續審查114年度行政法人國家太空中心預算案。\n(12月16日、18日及19日三天一次會)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-19T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T12:58:00+08:00","duration":16050,"影片長度":"04:27:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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既然這樣子簡列一百萬那還有剛剛因為我剛剛特別問去年是五億七千多萬今年是六億一千多萬所以增加了快五千萬"},{"start":2585.643,"end":2587.205,"text":"第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2607.705,"end":2610.866,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2628.499,"end":2635.463,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。adequate to the budget."},{"start":2653.455,"end":2660.307,"text":"其實明年如果我們這個說明過後我想書面報告其實就可以解凍使用主委你要不要補充"},{"start":2663.39,"end":2665.851,"text":"主委不要心虛,你這樣顯得心虛了,你知道嗎?好,謝謝"},{"start":2694.871,"end":2714.39,"text":"主委他們應該要問的是說你這個動5%之後3千萬會不會影響到你的整個院座所以你說顯得怎麼樣大家就覺得不是理由據說因為每個部會可能都有所以有沒有影響你的行政院你要說明嘛你說說明我們可以幫你主張說應該要動少一點譬如說動個我就覺得"},{"start":2715.211,"end":2740.838,"text":"主委認為一千萬好像可以達到洪文凱委員他的監督的目的那也不會影響你們的運作那主委就請說明一下洪委員可不可以那我們就先動一千萬嗎不是我很實在話講欸你去年是五億七千多萬我一開始詢問范雲文還沒有進來他不知道我剛剛詢問的狀況嗎"},{"start":2743.24,"end":2768.249,"text":"那你去年五億七千多萬到時候有最佳預算嗎?有嗎?沒有嘛,代表你去年五億七千多萬夠用嘛那我今年,今年的部分六億一千多萬我也尊重我也講是說你們該用要用,錢花在刀口上所以我說凍結凍結5%還是比你去年五億七千多萬高"},{"start":2769.755,"end":2778.707,"text":"那既然都已經比較高了,如果說真的到最後年底到了還是不服使用趕快提出書面報告來解凍,這樣子有不合理嗎?不是我覺得,如果說,趙偉,地幕那麼"},{"start":2788.243,"end":2790.686,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2809.718,"end":2822.5,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":2823.823,"end":2831.988,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":2849.998,"end":2869.746,"text":"緊密科目是自行調整的,因為我們用一幕一幕啊,沒有問題。對,動的是書面。我們用書面報告後,使得解凍。好,我們進行第二幕。第二幕是從第9案到第20案。來,各位委員。張雅琳委員。我們等一下一樣從後面繞過來好了,謝謝。"},{"start":2871.104,"end":2872.785,"text":"你不堅持是指病案處理嗎?"},{"start":2900.185,"end":2902.308,"text":"無村城委員或林益錦"},{"start":2911.288,"end":2930.503,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":2931.384,"end":2947.834,"text":"發展並強化防台災害預警及防減災的風險評估,有跟水利署、地況中心及農村水保署及地方政府整合全國的淹水崩塌土石這種災害的潛質圖資。"},{"start":2952.297,"end":2971.07,"text":"這個其實是可以提升這個防災的韌性所以我非常感謝國科會有來詳盡說明這個目前的辦理業務跟呈現的成果那不過本期是想建議國科會要那個加強中央部會跟地方政府"},{"start":2971.55,"end":2990.567,"text":"相關局處的合作才能收治水之效。以本期的這個選區永康來說去年在這個小犬颱風襲台之間就發現這個排水系統的圖資遺漏的情形那如果圖資的系統沒有數位化的建置好"},{"start":2991.147,"end":3013.937,"text":"那宣稱智慧化的防洪防台我想也是突然所以這部分希望國科會可以跟相關地質跟水利的管理局處進行數位化的圖資建立然後來善加應用於未來的這個防洪防災那國科會預算溝通的時候也有特別提到說要強化地方層級的教育訓練跟計轉"},{"start":3016.438,"end":3028.486,"text":"提升基層的防災能力這部分希望能落實至於凍結的數目就跟大家一起並動再來是第17案"},{"start":3034.693,"end":3054.35,"text":"是期案還是提到這個複合式災害這個防減災的問題因為台灣其實是一個極容易複合式災害的地方那所以我們不只要隨時應變好對災害的處理那也要有對後續衍生的災害要有所準備"},{"start":3055.171,"end":3070.714,"text":"所以這個時候國家科學也在發展災害應用技術及推動與決策支援計畫這個時候我覺得除了研究以外其實我們要向大眾來展示具體的防減災的策略跟指引"},{"start":3072.176,"end":3093.837,"text":"經過溝通我們真的可以了解國家科學現在災害風險地圖已經有納入氣候變遷的情境及涉及脆弱度的考量可以更符合社會的需求及事業來進行防災的準備所以這一題我可以改組決議還是建起國家科學在"},{"start":3095.239,"end":3101.067,"text":"評估風險及災害預防上,勢必要有更周全的考量及準備。"},{"start":3106.022,"end":3108.103,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":3125.595,"end":3129.417,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":3143.803,"end":3144.063,"text":"主管行政院主管"},{"start":3171.548,"end":3171.888,"text":"案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":3186.718,"end":3188.34,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案有關行政院主管行政院主管"},{"start":3212.025,"end":3237.671,"text":"好接下來有請羅廷偉委員好這邊我想提到就是國家災害防救的科技中心的一個官方LINE截至113年12月3日訂閱人數僅168萬僅168萬不要看168很高阿我剛剛隨便抓兩個LINE的官方帳號台中市政府台中的人口大概280幾萬喔但是台中市政府的LINE AT到500多萬人訂閱那"},{"start":3241.112,"end":3265.193,"text":"我們現階段看到桃園市政府也有300多萬人對於一個國家災害防救科技中心的一個賴我們給予很高一個期待只有168萬跟全國的受眾人數來說我覺得有一個很大的落差再來我們看到裡面的內容提供警示涵蓋氣象水文文明聲交通如地震速報還有颱風停班停課等"},{"start":3265.854,"end":3281.489,"text":"但是縱觀幾個月相關的訊息官方LINE並沒有向服務介紹中所言發布相關停班課的一個訊息也沒有製作圖卡供民眾轉讓親朋好友所知顯見有廣告不實最後"},{"start":3282.45,"end":3298.135,"text":"關於地震速報也沒有落實12月1號阿里山地震11月9號中埔地震12月10月27日嘉義中埔鎮蓮巴鎮都沒有通知啊你們有來說明說地震是五級以上才會發布"},{"start":3299.215,"end":3318.475,"text":"但是最近5級以下的也開始發布到底是怎麼樣我搞不清楚我這邊是簡列100萬凍結200萬但是如果沒有一個實際說明我會繼續往上加我希望能夠有提供更好的服務好謝謝以上還有沒有其他的委員那我們請主委來做一個說明"},{"start":3319.363,"end":3335.542,"text":"好,那謝謝羅委員,我想我請那個陳主任在這部分非常謝謝委員的指教我想LINE我們的官方帳號是公益帳號是免費帳號大概LINE的公司只給兩個單位是公益帳號"},{"start":3336.203,"end":3359.326,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3359.326,"end":3360.828,"text":"：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":3374.722,"end":3389.182,"text":"大概就有1500萬到2100萬的這個所有人在看這個我們非常努力希望能夠好好去推播這個工作所以在Live Today還有這個Google大概都有增加這麼多非常謝謝委員的指教非常謝謝"},{"start":3390.143,"end":3393.086,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":3405.077,"end":3405.117,"text":"議員及委員"},{"start":3431.189,"end":3448.377,"text":"因為主委去年一整年應該說今年一整年發生很多那種系統粗暴我記得我在質詢的時候也有發生過你們發出去的簡訊有時候是全英文的好像考驗大家的英文能力不然就是該發沒發我記得還有一個是有一個人開車開得非常快"},{"start":3449.524,"end":3470.436,"text":"花蓮封底索還是什麼的自己逃過去就沒有收到簡訊那這個部分我覺得要解決啦那現在如果說立法院凍結你們預算並不是要刪如果是凍結的話不是要刪只是說希望你們可以針對大家提出來的問題提一個解決的方式而不是說每次都是人家告訴你們你們出了什麼問題然後你們再說我們要改善我們要改善可是都沒有改善我覺得大家擔心的是這件事情"},{"start":3472.81,"end":3498.978,"text":"好,那我來處理這一幕那個羅廷惠委員因為這邊有一個簡略的部分所以您現在的主張是他地震沒有回我好來,再我們說明一下地震的部分地震的部分現在這個主責單位氣象署他有規定的如果是這個地震的等級3.5可以發啦所以現在在都會地區這個震度3.5他可以發啦"},{"start":3499.418,"end":3526.393,"text":"現在又3.5了,上次還跟我講是5級以上才有規模5、正度4規模5跟正度不一樣那現在是規模6.5、正度3.5他可以發啦,這個是最近的公告我就統一3.5、正度5正度3.5是在都會區裡頭,都會區裡頭才發好,那所以提問員的這個簡略的部分我先處理簡略有沒有,還是我們要統一凍結凍結就好啦"},{"start":3530.049,"end":3555.762,"text":"我可以配合大家用凍結的方式但是我還是要再跟主任您剛剛有說的不管是Light Today或是Google的一千多萬的一個連結但是他選擇在他的平台看你的資訊為什麼沒有進而訂閱到你的官方帳號這我們還是要檢討好不好你有這麼多的受動族群但是你卻沒辦法把它轉吸為你的這是你的問題好不好謝謝"},{"start":3557.5,"end":3585.868,"text":"好,那這一幕的話我們那個羅天瑋不堅持檢列那是否我們就是凍結兩百萬好,那我們凍結兩百萬然後書面報告以後取得凍結然後第11案柯志恩委員的案子改成主決議然後第17案林瑩瑾委員的案子也改成主決議好,我們進行到第三幕第三幕21案到41案我們從前面的委員開始起柯志恩委員"},{"start":3591.028,"end":3609.053,"text":"第三幕我是第32案因為你這是有關於國家發射場域的選址問題這個其實還蠻大的那你第一季你們告訴我你們會確定選址是在台東或屏東但是呢在119年才會完成發射場域的建制營運嘛對不對"},{"start":3610.353,"end":3631.54,"text":"但是目前還需要進行環評土地取得建造工地實施作業最重要是你還涉及原住民需要跟當地原住民做這個部落的溝通跟協調所以我在想你到底有沒有辦法如期來做一個完工你們來溝通了表示會加速這個選址的作業而且就我的理解臺東或屏東的鄉親其實不像核廢料了"},{"start":3634.121,"end":3635.161,"text":"議員五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":3661.67,"end":3666.571,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。adequacy Act 中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":3689.718,"end":3716.307,"text":"議員這位人我們順著下去齁那個21案跟31案都是針對國家太空中心就是那個發射場的進度啦因為我記得那時候主委有講到說那個長職的計畫會今年底吧送到行政院核定但是現在今年底已經快過完了等一下是不是可以請主委說明一下到底現在進度在哪裡如果說進度緩慢的話那當然我們就要凍結我這邊21案是主張凍結五分之一謝謝"},{"start":3721.429,"end":3747.12,"text":"好來我們下一位委員林倩琦委員謝謝昭緯那在這一幕裡面我是25案、37案、39那那個業務單位這邊有來說明所以大概在這個幕裡面那比較共通的問題就是選址還有期程那跟未來在期程裡面的幾個控管點"},{"start":3749.161,"end":3771.852,"text":"當然我們最關心的就是如同剛才柯委員這邊有關心的在選址的部分那也有牽涉到原住民的區域當然那個大家態度會有些不同那我在這邊要還是再提醒業務單位之前的提醒跟說明那在原住民的部分當然在大家的一個集體部落的一個意志下"},{"start":3773.133,"end":3800.652,"text":"這個部分當然會相對要比較細緻但是我覺得它也提供了你們在過程當中對於在地的不管正面或是負面的衝擊都可以有充分的了解所以不要因為有可能在過程當中會有比較多人的參與而把它覺得比較困難而有一些決策上的方向的影響所以我覺得這個過程的方面的細緻你們不要把它當成困難那可能要更"},{"start":3801.152,"end":3821.472,"text":"直接的面對它那其實跟以前博物館在選址的時候都會有相近的這個問題那更多人來一起參與更多人的集體意志的決定我相信對於未來那你們在營運的部分會有更好的一個方向或是在更好的效度所以這邊我還是對那個業務單位做一個相對的提醒"},{"start":3822.072,"end":3846.953,"text":"當然在一個時程的管控上跟環境衝擊的細緻度我覺得院內還是要可能跳脫一下在科學裡面的專業因為你們這個還是牽扯到在地、空間等等至於長子最後的確認我想還是要比較快一點昨天我又再次跟你們要相關的區位圖我也知道在過程當中會有一些大的層面"},{"start":3847.654,"end":3875.879,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3877.142,"end":3882.105,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。breviation"},{"start":3897.955,"end":3909.659,"text":"產業競逐我想縱觀國際我國在太空產業的產值占比仍然偏低當然還有許多努力的空間經過太空中心的預算說明我們了解到其實台灣在2023年太空產值達2520億較前一年度有成長14.6%雖然地面設備的產值占比有下降可是衛星的製造成長率是高達"},{"start":3927.445,"end":3930.828,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":3949.608,"end":3976.85,"text":"同樣如本席在另一個主角有提到就是我們要加強跟外國機構的這個合作最近我們有看到太空中心在11月底有參與了亞太太空組織論壇跟多國來做交流那這是一個不錯的進展那但是在全球產值都在同步成長的同時還是希望在占比數字上有看到更卓越的成績所以這部分的預算就跟大家一起討論處理"},{"start":3978.211,"end":3987.418,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":4007.134,"end":4019.568,"text":"那我想太空中心有提到說預計在2025年的第一季要來責定國家發射場域的場址那我想以其在"},{"start":4021.991,"end":4023.211,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":4049.736,"end":4077.094,"text":"就是在那個有發射可是發射失敗那其中裡頭有搭載這個臺灣太空中心的教育用衛星山雀也未能順利升空從這個事件其實我們是不是是否可以看出說我們其實真的要建制屬於我們自己的那個火箭發射場的必須所以這部分還是要push大家以上那所以這個這一案可以改組決議"},{"start":4079.08,"end":4079.1,"text":"國際協議委員"},{"start":4087.711,"end":4115.585,"text":"好這一幕我是27、35跟41那27我想要再問一下就是說那個發射時程其實是有延後的那是不是真的會影響到我們太空產業發展或者118年的產值的一個兆元的一個目標那是不是可以有更詳細的一個說明那第35案就是我們的這個發射場址的部分跟這個公聽會"},{"start":4117.146,"end":4145.463,"text":"會在明年三月底會取得地方的一個同意這個是上次有來特別跟我說明的那我想要問一下就是目前有沒有一些就是比較清楚的一個就是公聽會就是一般的居民的一些意見那會不會有可能會再出現一些反對的一個聲音那應該要如何應對那第41案我比較想要了解的就是我們有開設就是這個臺聯大跟北聯大學系統"},{"start":4146.203,"end":4149.425,"text":"教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":4170.285,"end":4196.348,"text":"好 謝謝那個邱政經委員我可以麻煩你我們本委會的我們講完我再讓您發言好不好謝謝那我們下一位葛無君委員謝謝主席本席是第28案那我是非常支持這個太空中心的發展計畫當這個主任當年還是火箭大叔的時候我也有贊助支持那現在我想我們非常多的計畫都在推進當中"},{"start":4197.409,"end":4225.314,"text":"不過昨天有聽聞日本小型火箭發射失敗上面有搭載太空中心的這個研發的小型衛星三雀T1A那這是由太空中心所設計製造的立方衛星還搭載了一些實驗的籌載那現在發射失敗了沒有辦法將衛星送入軌道有沒有一些預算上需要這個我們應該要來理解一下的狀況以及後續如何處理待會希望能夠聽到一些回應謝謝"},{"start":4228.132,"end":4231.255,"text":"好謝謝下一位是哪一位舉個手好嗎?那就呃陳秀寶的人"},{"start":4239.196,"end":4239.396,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":4259.667,"end":4261.61,"text":"科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術"},{"start":4276.329,"end":4278.332,"text":"行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管"},{"start":4293.979,"end":4311.469,"text":"是關於我們太空基礎工程與應用研究能量整備計劃的部分這個部分我提供的金額是500萬我們第三期的國家太空科技發展長存計劃提出這個修正的部分我一直都非常的關心然後國家科學這邊也一直說有送行政院但是是不是目前都還沒有送"},{"start":4312.209,"end":4340.48,"text":"這次的修正計劃預計要加入B5G低軌衛星、通過軌道衛星計劃等等是很攸關我國太空科技的發展而且修正之後我們這個預算增列這個金額的規模又會超過400億所以國會這邊要更積極來處理那這個部分我沒有堅持一定要凍結500萬可以改成200或是跟其他委員一起來討論那也希望國會這邊提出修正計劃之後要將這個資料提供給教文委委員會的委員以上謝謝"},{"start":4343.544,"end":4351.266,"text":"謝謝,我們再繼續請羅婷薇委員我想大家都非常關心這個太空中心的這個發射場域的這個問題那因為其實我自己比較我自己是蠻關心就是說我們因為這個騎乘這個騎乘現在看起來都還是一個比較rough的騎乘"},{"start":4368.832,"end":4387.368,"text":"那我還是希望說可以請太空中心待會說明或是未來提供書面報告有一個詳細的形成讓我們去確保我們這些環評或是說社區協商尤其是因為有涉及到原住民的這個部分那我這邊太空中心其實是有來說明就是社會諮商取得原住民族部落同意的參與"},{"start":4389.847,"end":4417.763,"text":"會依照這個辦法來拜訪當地的居民跟相關的意見領袖來爭取地方的支持跟配合現在也是有說114年第一季經部落戶同意之後就會開始來展開相關的選址審查會議不過因為後面的環境影響評估、開發計畫、工程規劃等等我還是希望有一個更詳細的說明我這邊是提凍結但是我並不堅持這個凍結的金額我可以跟大家一起併案討論 謝謝"},{"start":4420.967,"end":4421.107,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員"},{"start":4439.386,"end":4456.22,"text":"那再來就是另外是事實案對於這個太空產業推動計畫有8400萬裡面有寫到一個就是說就國內外各項太空法制的進行收集以進一步完善國內太空產業的法制與規範說明內容太過簡化就要編列8400多萬而且相較於113年度他預算"},{"start":4463.726,"end":4464.227,"text":"基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":4481.747,"end":4493.152,"text":"那這個部分對於太空經濟以及未來的太空產業是不是會沒有辦法銜接所以這個部分我也是有一個凍結600萬減裂300萬但是跟大家一起討論都沒有關係謝謝好謝謝那我們就請邱正軍委員邱正軍委員"},{"start":4504.166,"end":4522.726,"text":"謝謝主席我的案子是37跟39一樣就是我們國家太空中心發展計畫37案其實是以200公斤即次的軌道是非火箭為目標目前我們看到我們太空中心一直都跟我們學界在合作"},{"start":4524.107,"end":4538.075,"text":"其實台灣非常多的優秀的產業這一點我是希望我們太空中心能夠更廣泛的拉民間來參與讓這個事情能夠盡快來成功因為我看到112年的時候我們預算5.2億執行率也只有54.5%所以這個部分我認為應該還有很大的一個加強的一個"},{"start":4549.842,"end":4575.021,"text":"一個一個空間那我請這個國會國科會一個院內向立法院教育及文化委員會這邊提交書面報告當然啦我也尊重大家的意見跟大家一起來來來做處理簡略的部分可以不要不堅持啦那凍結的話我尊重我們在場的各位委員的一個意識那另外39案呢一樣也是我們"},{"start":4576.002,"end":4589.488,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":4605.196,"end":4613.891,"text":"研究能夠跟得上不要停留不要這個6年以上都空白了這個也真的非常可惜以上"},{"start":4620.201,"end":4637.636,"text":"主席在這裡我自己也有兩個案子24案跟32案24案我這裡要特別說一下我想這個主委等一下可能也要好好回答一下我們看到國科會要推動B5GA的低軌通訊衛星計劃那便利了69.4億那你本來是說要自己去研發兩顆低軌通訊衛星"},{"start":4639.657,"end":4641.678,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":4657.782,"end":4682.495,"text":"結果原本你是112年要來完成這個工程體那延到113年底才能完成那113年4月的時候我們問國家科學國家科學你的答覆當時是說公研院因為經驗不足遇到技術瓶頸所以時程延誤那你為了要追趕這個發射期程所以呢你把一顆衛星的通訊籌載要向外國採購可是後來我們了解其實公研院跟我們的說法是說"},{"start":4683.456,"end":4684.397,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":4699.93,"end":4716.957,"text":"另外國科會又回答說你本來要這個就是向國外採購的這一顆結果你沒有這樣做你在113年就是今年9月的時候你用最有力標評選的這個太陽科技來得標所以看起來其實在這件事情上面說詞比較反覆"},{"start":4717.897,"end":4721.641,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":4738.195,"end":4738.635,"text":"謝謝張偉 各位委員"},{"start":4766.436,"end":4791.856,"text":"我先回應剛剛提到那個選址長址火箭發射場的事情那我們其實按照原來的規劃是要在今年年底之前開審議會完成這個選址的作業但是我們在其實在10月就已經跟包含台東縣的南田村也是南田部落以及屏東縣的九棚村"},{"start":4793.298,"end":4813.775,"text":"這兩個是我們現在最後的兩個場址的候選場址但是當我們在進行各種溝通的時候我們也開了公聽會按照我們公開公聽會都開了就發現說當地的居民現在態度就變得非常積極那兩個縣政府也都很積極那就提出來非常多的"},{"start":4814.736,"end":4820.238,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位"},{"start":4831.363,"end":4835.889,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":4850.427,"end":4852.328,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":4873.697,"end":4878.239,"text":"基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":4894.586,"end":4896.687,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4912.034,"end":4932.387,"text":"會有這個顏值希望委員能夠諒解那我們也希望很審慎的把這個最後的決定也不要太延旦因為我們預計要發射的這個自主發射火箭就是在5年之後所以希望也不要延旦那明年這個預算希望委員支持因為接下來我們就有那個土地取得啦各種各樣的那個經費需要"},{"start":4935.15,"end":4951.108,"text":"規劃的作業必須趕快進行,土地取得等等很多作業必須要做,希望不要延旦這次日本火箭發射事件等一下吳主任解釋一下,還有就是我在解釋一個太空三期的修正案"},{"start":4952.54,"end":4976.525,"text":"我剛接任的時候我們太空三期的這個計畫正在進行要修正那目標就是把原來我們主要的功能是那個遙測衛星氣象衛星為主現在要加上我們在次世代通訊已經到衛星通訊了把衛星通訊的這個功能也加進來所以我們就在發展那個通訊衛星"},{"start":4977.805,"end":5001.974,"text":"通信衛星加上我們剛剛提到的火箭自製要自己發射這兩個是我們太空三期修正的最重要加入的項目那要好好的規劃所以我就10月就舉辦了一個行政院的SRV針對太空科技的這個全國的科技會議那確定了修正以後現在我們在國科會這個修正案在國科會會內已經通過了"},{"start":5003.674,"end":5005.776,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":5034.215,"end":5052.647,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案七、繼續審查114年度中央政府"},{"start":5059.972,"end":5071.115,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。breviation of SpaceOne SpaceOne SpaceOne SpaceOne SpaceOne 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Act 基本草案已經7月抱怨相關的立法院進程是不是競輸到立法院的一個審查我是第55案那我想根據聯合國的文教組織他們這樣子的一個頒布我想深圳市AI最低年齡的應該是在13歲這個一直以來我們都一直很關心那所以我也在這個教文有做過相關的質詢那我希望這個"},{"start":5538.024,"end":5566.923,"text":"我們對於國內的深層式AI並沒有去做一個相關的年齡規範所以我有做一個凍結500萬另外5757案我們對於這一個依據凍保法的規定我們每個科學應用科學的一個機構都應該成立實驗動物照護及相關的照護使用指引但是我們現在看到這個功能不彰"},{"start":5567.884,"end":5591.603,"text":"我想很多的機構呢有太多的經費資源挹注在這個其他的機構上面會符合動保法以及實驗動物的指引的問題那我想礙於機構的自主管理呢我們外面無從得知到底這些實驗動物的一些權益所以我想這個部分國會會雖然有要求實驗機構要提供ISCUC的一個同意書"},{"start":5592.304,"end":5603.018,"text":"但是這個是否有具有功能性我想這個審查是否到位我都希望能夠更確定的再來查明所以這邊我也有一個凍結200萬大家一起統統這個都沒關係可以一起來討論然後再來就是66案"},{"start":5609.394,"end":5630.486,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5631.386,"end":5649.112,"text":"這個部分我們希望台灣大學的重點在於研究學院那台北科技大學在創新前瞻那我們都希望這個同為半導體重症的中科相對於對這個半導體的學院卻獨缺中部所以我想要就是為這個發聲所以國科會啟動的精創台灣方案"},{"start":5652.553,"end":5673.98,"text":"並排版海外基地在捷克的布拉格但是原本的計劃是礙於9月才正式運營卻沒有如期我想是不是有這個機會在這個海外都設點了那中部呢中部是不是有機會這邊也來做爭取那這邊我是凍結700萬以上跟大家可以一起討論最後的凍結數謝謝"},{"start":5675.796,"end":5700.178,"text":"好謝謝庭委下一位是我們如果有要發言舉個手不然我就會跳過好江雅琳委員我的案子是第42案那主要就是在講我們的算力因為我們現在就是非常需要這個算力可是我們的九成算力都集中於單一個縣市所以我就是有要求他們要有這個嚴厲這個異地備援的機制來降低我們的風險然後增加我們的算力的韌性"},{"start":5700.919,"end":5713.904,"text":"那基本上因為我看了這個國科會有來跟我們說明那他其實有相對的一些計劃去分散這個備援的機制所以我這邊我沒有堅持我可以跟大家並動處理"},{"start":5715.758,"end":5733.493,"text":"第43案是針對於綠能設施的測試實驗室建置計畫其中的離岸風機的結構智慧防災系統我這邊是想要再請主委可不可以再多做一些說明雖然已經有溝通過了但是我想要更了解的是說"},{"start":5734.474,"end":5752.932,"text":"我們是不是有要規劃去考量到我們其他前期因為已經做一些風電相關的計畫了嘛那他們執行經驗我們可不可以做一個統整分析來幫助我們未來在執行相關計畫可以更優化那這部分我是希望可以再多做一點說明謝謝好謝謝雅琳接下來我們請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":5756.61,"end":5773.565,"text":"在第四幕的部分我的案子有49、52、58、67、68、696個案子關於49案的部分主要是整合晶片設計與原件製造的垂直整合以及培育高階技術能力的相關業務"},{"start":5776.028,"end":5793.183,"text":"美國選舉過後新政府會上任後續對於我國晶片會採取的措施讓人也很擔心包括說是不是會增加增關稅晶片法案2.0的走向以及要求我國7奈米的晶片要先進製程要到美國生產等等國科會這邊都應該要關注這些重點"},{"start":5798.487,"end":5827.247,"text":"國會這邊有來說明說你們已經在11月的時候先將先進製程的晶片等等相關技術提報行政院列為國家核心關鍵技術所以未來如果說要用海外生產的話這個需要經過審議那這邊還是要提醒國科會明年1月美國新政府上任之後要密切留意這個晶片的這個法案的這個走向那這個案子你們這樣來說明我可以接受所以我這個案子是9案改組決議第52案的部分"},{"start":5828.427,"end":5843.859,"text":"是關於說跨領域的整合儀器科技研發服務平台這個相關的業務這個設施平台要整合的資源建立一個單一的入口網來結合448項的儀器46個資料庫以及145項的服務也希望是有助於諧言界的科研進行"},{"start":5852.505,"end":5879.133,"text":"這個政治核心設施的平台是整合就是補助計畫以及轄下的法人構置之科學儀器來提供這個一站式的查詢服務那在平台網頁就可以直接連結到各法人的網頁來向各法人借用這個科學儀器這邊我是希望說可不可以是不是能夠要求各中心來做一個使用統計在每年度定期提供科學儀器的使用次數也可以協助來分析我們各儀器的使用的狀況"},{"start":5880.453,"end":5896.717,"text":"這個部分國科會等一下回答我一下看你們能不能研議說有做這樣子的統計的資料整合那第58案的部分呢是我們科技政策研究與資訊服務計畫我們從2022年開始國科會的這個專題計畫申請件數逐年的減少2023年已經比2022年減少了1500多件,減幅是6%"},{"start":5908.439,"end":5911.162,"text":"那2024年又比2023年少了2833件減幅高達11.5%那我們科技的預算其實逐年編列是會增加的但是這個國科會的專業計畫的數量是逐年減少到底是什麼樣的問題或是有什麼地方要檢討要改進那國科會這邊有說明說專題計畫生產量"},{"start":5930.943,"end":5946.787,"text":"這個申請的量下降是因為我們少子化以及我們比較多的是那個多年期的計劃申請量有上升但是國科會你們這邊後續提供的資料呢其實多年期計劃申請也只增加了1%但是專題計劃的減幅高達11.5%那從今年的申請件數已經比2022年少了4395件"},{"start":5957.529,"end":5983.302,"text":"所以國會你們也要正視這個問題啦那這個案子裡面我來說明我是可以改組決議但是我希望國會這邊你們要提供相關的檢討報告給我辦公室那在第67案的部分呢是關於晶片驅動產業創新再升級的這個計畫那包含就是說高階晶片前瞻技術的突破以及加大益助新創事業及中小企業生產生成式AI服務等方案的這個相關的這個業務"},{"start":5986.163,"end":6000.295,"text":"在我們彰化縣其實我的選區裡面中小企業很多而且產業的內容是非常的多元其實這樣子的一個計畫是不是能夠一概使用那我這邊會希望說國科會這邊要協助各行業來導入AI這相關的業務而且應該要跟中小企業來妥適的溝通來因應各產業別的工作內容不同來協助導入合適的這個AI"},{"start":6011.985,"end":6029.746,"text":"國客會這邊你們有來說明說你們的業務主要是提供大型語言模組應用開發的平台並且推動業者與服務業者來研究國網中心算力資源的合作模式。國客也有說你們會推動產業需求座談跟服務推廣活動"},{"start":6030.387,"end":6051.199,"text":"那因為我剛剛提到說我選區有許多中小企業每個產業的類別都不那個需求都不相同所以我希望國科會這邊要辦理座談會來瞭解各個產業的需求這個部分請國科會一定要研議所以我提動金額是500萬我沒有堅持要動這麼多可以跟其他的委員一起來討論第68案的部分也是關於晶片驅動產業創新再升級計畫那國科會來說明說我們海外的這個訓練基地雖然說布拉格這個"},{"start":6059.763,"end":6079.549,"text":"這個基地還沒有正式營運但是培育人才的部分還是有持續辦理那因為我們這個計劃其實我們之前本來預定是今年9月要營運但是因為捷克現在政局有變化至此說我們這個海外的訓練基地沒有辦法如期來營運那今年呢國家科學這邊有說今年6月7月也分別完成了"},{"start":6079.949,"end":6098.108,"text":"第59個及79位的國際學員訓練當然我們還是希望說我們要進展讓我們海外基地可以正式來啟用並且我也希望國家科學這邊提出未來幾年學員培訓的這個目標那這個案子你們來說明過後我接受這個案子我可以改組決議第69案的部分呢"},{"start":6099.417,"end":6108.708,"text":"主要這個業務是進行臺灣可信任AI代言模組及提升素養能力推動計劃就是大家一直都非常關心的這個TIDE這個建制的計劃那國科會這邊來說明說你們現在就是持續的跟公司部門都來洽談合作"},{"start":6115.035,"end":6135.952,"text":"建立公司部門的互惠合作來取得訓練資料而且未來也預計每一季都會更新一些資料但是我看你們的資料庫行政院下的各部會只有文化部、中研院跟教育部有提供那其他的部會的資料取得是有困難還是還在洽談中這個部分我想國科會這邊要積極如果真的有遇到什麼困難的話應該請行政院這邊來協調"},{"start":6138.254,"end":6150.64,"text":"如果你們公部門都很難以達成合作的話那四部門你們要怎麼去跟人家談所以這個部分我希望說你們要更積極那本來我提到的金額是五百萬我沒有堅持一定要五百可以跟其他委員一併討論以上謝謝"},{"start":6159.004,"end":6179.211,"text":"吳佩儀委員我的提案46案主要是關心因為最近我們各個部會我們大家都在關心說我們不管是編制內的公務員還是約聘的人員的勞動力的問題那我看到我們國使院的轄下單位博望中心我們預算原額進用缺額目前是比例達到兩成"},{"start":6180.151,"end":6181.552,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":6206.436,"end":6211.903,"text":"第二案是63案剛剛有委員關心就是我們的晶片驅動產業創新再升級計劃目前這個計劃就是說未來我們規劃超級電腦的主要建制"},{"start":6220.996,"end":6222.238,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":6237.861,"end":6238.001,"text":"第59個議案"},{"start":6253.533,"end":6278.342,"text":"那我要先說明一下寫在科證中心是因為這個業務是他們所承辦的但我並不是說業務做得不好而是相關的整體計畫我認為需要更上位的整合所以我這邊想要拜託國科會主委、跨部會協調包含術發部的部分、國發會的部分要能夠讓中央部會的科研計畫真的可以被找得到那目前GRB系統只有國科會的部分最齊全"},{"start":6279.222,"end":6280.763,"text":"主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院"},{"start":6297.93,"end":6317.172,"text":"其實對於相關預算執行會非常的可惜那更不要說是中央補助執行到地方政府的部分我們其實更是看不見這個整體的樣貌那這個部分也要請國科會持續精進那關於預算的部分呢我們可以並動可是我們剛剛所提出來的論述也希望國科會後續可以持續協助謝謝"},{"start":6319.842,"end":6323.184,"text":"第4個提案是關於國研院下的科證中心,疑似有發生職場霸凌事件的事。台灣科技科研的人才"},{"start":6340.351,"end":6356.985,"text":"雖然說過去我們是這個有護國群山有這個科技之道但其實現在在面對未來我們的科技人才還是非常的稀缺而且每一個都不能少但是我們卻發現這邊每年離職超過40個人聽起來不多但是離職率可以說是高達30%"},{"start":6358.886,"end":6362.568,"text":"國會資料回覆相對不積極,經過偵詢,其中9人沒有違背員工意願,並沒有正面回應本席關於事件的詢問。國會預算也不少,"},{"start":6379.835,"end":6396.923,"text":"那我們如何能夠這個兼顧我們的同仁在研發上面的一個身心狀況以及管理的妥適的一個情況我們還是希望這個國共會要清楚的說明尤其在大齡世界應該尤其我們這個阿宅就是溝通能力不一定"},{"start":6397.483,"end":6399.664,"text":"行政院主管行政院院長及國會主委提及人型機器人會是未來的"},{"start":6422.879,"end":6450.316,"text":"世界競爭的主流對我們晶片的發展也非常的重要非常有潛力但是我們目前在金創的計畫裡面還是沒有看到人型機器人的發展結果呢昨天這個禮拜這個台積電的董事長呢就開始講了這個全世界最有錢的人接下來就是要押寶人型機器人那台灣的產業會跟上那我們的國研呢我們的這個國科會呢我們相關的科研人才有沒有全面的去跟上我們的預算有配合"},{"start":6450.976,"end":6458.541,"text":"有配合嗎?所以呢我想這是第一個關於這個金創的問題那第74案呢也提到算力的部分"},{"start":6459.81,"end":6481.527,"text":"我們之前一直提到我們國研院的計畫書一次一開始是說要到100plaflops後來又更新資料說280plaflops後來又再加說說要再多加200plaflops變480這個當然是往好的方向發展但一遍再變這是我們做計畫的做法嗎另外我們也在一直質詢說"},{"start":6483.209,"end":6495.599,"text":"這個晶片算力是要預播、預劃後面好幾年的那我們今年再編明年的預算你明年要採購的東西不應該是去看現在的行路你現在可能要去預購"},{"start":6497.254,"end":6525.527,"text":"現在可能已經要出貨的這個Blackwell B系列的還是你應該要預購之後新的這個其實我希望還是要問清楚主委我們的這個所謂算力採購的佈局到底有沒有規劃往後規劃而不是未來去買現在或甚至過去的產品到底是H還是B採購的訂單開始排隊了沒有這個拜託一定要回答第75案則是資料來源的問題那我們一直有在關注說"},{"start":6526.247,"end":6534.291,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":6549.919,"end":6554.121,"text":" ＼一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。 ＼二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":6571.651,"end":6581.879,"text":"資料量到底重不重要?如果主委在這一點的意識上跟整個產業跟整個學界是相反的,那我們編這些預算做什麼呢?我們當然予以凍結,謝謝。好,謝謝盧君。接下來我們請郭育晴委員。"},{"start":6587.725,"end":6608.03,"text":"好那在這一幕的部分我是50、56、70、71那我先就這個第50我想這個國醫院人力它的禁用其實每年都還是有不少的一個缺額啦所以雖然我們好像每年都有在這個編制計畫的人力的部分還有這個預算好像都是有增加的"},{"start":6608.45,"end":6632.298,"text":"但是其實最重要的就是人才在選擇公司第一的考量就是薪資那這個薪資其實如果我們不能跟其他的產業界來做競爭的話我想這個人才的金融很難留任那這個部分我想這個優勢是不是還是要再強化一下就是改善的一些措施那這個部分我是有凍結200萬等一下是可以跟大家一起來並安的處理"},{"start":6633.278,"end":6655.273,"text":"另外在第56案的部分我沒有特別的堅持再來是70跟7170的部分就是我們的這個超級電腦的一個算力的排名其實是一直在落後當中那這個部分是不是可以再加速而且再分析一下這個到底主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":6656.789,"end":6684.557,"text":"那我剛剛說的那個第五十案那個可以改組就一定沒問題補充一下那第七十一就是上次其實我有在這個質詢的時候有特別提到就是那個台德的這個評測的進程那台德評測的這個進程是不是有一個比較具體的一個時程跟一個規劃那也請這個部分來做一個比較詳細的一個說明那這個部分我是可以跟大家一起來並案的一個處理 以上"},{"start":6685.742,"end":6704.548,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6704.568,"end":6713.911,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":6732.276,"end":6739.419,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":6757.867,"end":6783.774,"text":"可以再跟大家一起討論另外73案是有關於金創海外基地我想國家實驗研究院的台灣半導體研究中心跟捷克的理工大學有合作管理就是金創海外基地我們這個計劃是藉由雙邊的教授跟學生來互訪然後有深化雙方的鏈結進行研究合作與參與計劃研究人員的訓練"},{"start":6786.795,"end":6794.118,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":6802.381,"end":6805.783,"text":"基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":6822.21,"end":6824.872,"text":"基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":6852.511,"end":6856.482,"text":"好謝謝怡瑾我們接下來有請林千吉委員"},{"start":6859.281,"end":6882.368,"text":"有嗎?好,謝謝昭偉那在這一幕裡面我有三個案那個是51案60跟64那51這個部分是也感謝我們立委同仁這邊的一個提醒所以剛才也是有委員這邊也稍作的提醒有關於這個晶片晶創的這個計畫那當然大家最關注的就是說這個計畫它最先進的技術要留在台灣的這個問題"},{"start":6887.91,"end":6912.367,"text":"當然我們知道這個後端其實還蠻複雜的就產業跟企業來講全球佈局是21世紀大家的一個基本的產業發展的策略但是在前瞻佈局的這個同時後端跟他如何留在而且很安全確定的留在區域的這個問題我想這是很複雜的"},{"start":6916.369,"end":6937.664,"text":"這個控管呢也不是大家現在理解這個雲端的這樣子的一個操作就可以那麼確定的就像我們知道現在的許多詐騙然後跨國集團的犯罪這都需要很多專業的人才那雖然我們樂見這個整個精創不僅在本土可能也為我們在開出另外一個階段的路"},{"start":6938.084,"end":6965.286,"text":"但是呢在全球佈局的情況下那如何真的確保他的安全我想這個應該是不僅是你們啦各部會大家都很關注的一個議題當然我們今天不可能就技術層面談得太多但是這個很重要的我們還是在這邊做個提醒那另外但是那個十個項目那個國科會雖然很有誠意的來溝通但是常常在那個比如說你們如果有十個項目可能就會跟我們說一二三四等這樣"},{"start":6965.947,"end":6968.068,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查"},{"start":6994.755,"end":7021.03,"text":"6、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。adequacy Act 海洋主題其實在各部會大概有關於海洋主題大家做的主要的內容是什麼然後產出是什麼其實在台灣我們雖然說以海立國大家應該也都很清楚如果問在座有多少人能夠游泳我們可能可以舉手的人已經很確如了更何況跟海相關的"},{"start":7022.051,"end":7028.396,"text":"科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":7048.989,"end":7074.691,"text":"不要各行其道雖然你們是所謂的推手那也算是一個支持系統但是你們自己也提到嘛這個支持系統的一個無力感那也沒有辦法符合其實在海的事務大部分人都不太理解所以這個我們也只能堂家說謊話所以支持系統的不足或者是其他相關部會大家應該談清楚的是"},{"start":7075.271,"end":7077.092,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算"},{"start":7094.376,"end":7109.102,"text":"繼續在耳庭面面的跟你們做溝通跟提醒希望海的部分我們也希望透過國科會雖然你們是專業的研究單位但是在教學然後在這個宣導上還是可以再更積極好嗎"},{"start":7110.442,"end":7112.525,"text":"最主要你們談到能夠帶動南台灣在技術層面的一個產業平台網絡"},{"start":7125.925,"end":7137.778,"text":"當然他的重點是你們集中在台南的沙崙那我這邊要幫嘉義跟高雄說個話你們延展出去好像也都是南科那但是在嘉義跟高雄其實相關的這個園區我覺得應該某種程度你們應該也做一些連結"},{"start":7140.661,"end":7158.52,"text":"當然這些原因他有某一些比較強的主題但是跟你們這個主題有關的你們還是有責任在如你們所講的那未來這個科技大南方那整個南方你們不能忽視相關的鄰近區域好這是我的一個提醒尊重主席最後整體的處理謝謝好謝謝倩琪委員接下來我們請彥元智委員"},{"start":7164.504,"end":7187.482,"text":"我覺得65案之前也有跟主委詢問過就是說我們現在也推一個自己的可生成的AI但是使用率不高那當初那個國科會設定的目標一年才一萬次下載四年兩萬次我覺得這個很沒有雄心壯志如果要花這麼多錢做的話目標值應該提高要把它做到好謝謝"},{"start":7192.762,"end":7212.031,"text":"好來第四幕124億那聽過很多委員大的講法其實我想我們都一致就是讓國家科技發展好的部分我們沒有反對的理由但是我們都希望是能夠做到位所以我總共有三個案第一個案53案的部分這個是我們國科會當時的一個計畫也講述到"},{"start":7214.872,"end":7227.557,"text":"第115年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第115年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第117年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第117年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":7246.426,"end":7261.098,"text":"的實質進程作為到底在哪裡我們當然希望完成所以提出來相關解凍的部分我們也希望國科會能夠更進一步的告訴我們說現在我們掌握的狀況62案算例大家都講到"},{"start":7262.159,"end":7271.207,"text":"預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":7287.97,"end":7301.535,"text":"那119年那個時候有沒有算過說世界各國其他國家的算力會成長到什麼程度我當然知道說如果可以119年到431的時候很不錯啊我們自己成長8倍那別人會不會成長80倍"},{"start":7303.891,"end":7331.286,"text":"主委可以理解我意思嗎就是說這個是一個相對值不是絕對值嘛所以我們現在要看的是說當117年或119年的時候世界各國我們的國家的排名跟其他國家的一個比較我們是屬於維持還是有所進展還是可能會相對落後學如逆水行舟不進則退嘛這一點我想我需要聽到更進一步的一個說法那以及第77案的部分"},{"start":7331.766,"end":7335.988,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":7359.181,"end":7377.173,"text":"我覺得也許對於我們推廣的這個信心也好或說應用層面也好可以更廣我想公部門的運用這一點是我們到目前還沒有辦法說很具體看到那我們也希望是能夠更多的公部門的運用來使用我們國科會的這樣的一個系統以上三點 謝謝"},{"start":7378.527,"end":7401.857,"text":"好 謝謝孟凱 有請科資委員好 這個科技始終來自於人性要把工作環境做好才把我科技發展得很好我延續我過去質詢我們主委的霸凌事件我還是要強調因為我是在第47案國家實驗研究院的發展的這個部分當中我那時候就特別要求主委在一個"},{"start":7402.817,"end":7427.084,"text":"禮拜之內你要非常的清楚在國研院下面的科證中心我所質詢有關於霸凌的事件當中然後呢一個禮拜給我答覆國科會給我不到半夜的說明而且呢全部都是經過徵詢員工意願之後才改派然後都沒有這個違背員工意願的真的是如此嗎"},{"start":7427.964,"end":7453.485,"text":"真的是如此嗎?那我就好不客氣的在這地方一一詳細的告訴大家我只差不把名字講出來但是如果國科會再沒有給我更清楚的話我就把所有的名字主管現任主管名字一一來公佈你們是透過一對一的方法來做詢問請問有哪一位員工在你們面對一對一的時候承認自己是被逼迫來離職的而且你們都只詢問現任的員工對於"},{"start":7457.128,"end":7459.769,"text":"事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":7480.1,"end":7505.706,"text":"信不信我就把你們借掉到樓上就是國科會而且有非常多資深的研究員本身就是敢怒根本不敢言甚至這位副主任非常客氣的告訴自己他常常跟大家講的你只要跟著吳淺委員你只要跟林佳龍委員很熟就能夠幫助大家拿到中心的計劃跟預算請問主委你知不知道這件事我都知道你都不知道你給我半夜的這個部分我再跟你講還有呢科學中心在2021年11月你們徵收的科技產業主"},{"start":7509.767,"end":7535.709,"text":"你們當時的組委還要主管要求科技產業組的全體同仁說作為幕僚上班開會下班就是準備資料然後呢你們在2022年光是科技產業組的離職率就高達六成你們沒有研究員的一個解決方案就是用外包人力人力派遣公司來派遣人力我說的這些人不好意思很多人都還在任甚至還升官"},{"start":7536.61,"end":7550.279,"text":"那這些事情你主委你都連一點風聲都沒有聽到嗎而且呢不是只有科政中心我還收到非常多有關你們國科會本身同樣有主管的言語霸凌大聲咆哮還有公務刁難無理告要責任的狀況"},{"start":7554.241,"end":7555.602,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":7576.34,"end":7590.872,"text":"的這個報告然後一個禮拜給我交這些主委我真的是沒有辦法接受我還是說一個好的環境你看起來非常的nice我也相信這都是在你任內之前但是目前為止都還存留的所以我懇請所有委員對於47案這一塊凍結一千萬如果沒有給我一個更完整沒有徹底的清查所有的部分我們怎麼樣告訴大家"},{"start":7599.159,"end":7621.692,"text":"全部的國科會除了中研以外就是國科會的學資領最高可是你要知道學金率越高的人使用的霸凌的方法越是陰暗不是直接搞不好來自很多不同的方式主委你不能告訴我你們的調查報告就只有這樣這是非常廉價的我沒有辦法接受好不好所以這是第47案在霸凌的世界即使我提出來了你們的結果我還是沒有辦法"},{"start":7622.452,"end":7629.379,"text":"接受。另外一個好了回到科技的部分78案應該非常多人都有提到有關於AI大型的這樣預算基本上面都是要來經濟你們泰德的模型但是我以前不管是在國科會在中研院我都提過很多專家都建議你要塗鑄更多在創建繁體中文的資料而不是只有在這個模型的開發"},{"start":7646.476,"end":7649.177,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":7676.304,"end":7677.366,"text":"科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":7685.441,"end":7711.575,"text":"好,報告召喚我整體回答一下我們那個第一就是那個台德的問題我不是說資料不重要我們現在全世界能夠研究大語言模型的這個單位不多花費最多的是我們幾百倍的這種預算才有辦法做的好像那個Microsoft、Facebook、Amazon等等Google"},{"start":7713.466,"end":7728.501,"text":" Facebook就是Meta就是這些機構還有那個OpenAI這些機構他們是在研究模型本身那我們現在是使用已經研究好的LAMA公開的這個Open Source我們是要做優化"},{"start":7729.102,"end":7730.643,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":7746.698,"end":7753.302,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":7771.614,"end":7784.889,"text":"各個單位他們自己要去優化他們的模型發展他們的應用所以那個數量就上不來所以很多委員在執行我們這個我就知道這個問題所在那我現在請那個國防中心正在努力做這個事情"},{"start":7786.311,"end":7814.229,"text":"如果真的我們學界我們的產業真的要發展那種非常大型的原創性的圓模型他當然一定要非常多的資料這種資料收集的方式就會跟現在就會不一樣這個當然也要背誦我們現在的法規要能夠進步到可以允許他們來做這個事目前這個法規在美國在中國他們都可以做這個事可是在台灣在歐盟其實這個限制是非常多的我們要解決copyright的問題"},{"start":7815.149,"end":7836.962,"text":"我們沒有解決這個大家關心的這個隱私的問題我們沒有解決這個授權金的這些問題等等其實要推廣說很多資料你隨便都可以收集的到都可以運用來訓練這種大型語言模型其實是非常困難的那這個希望委員也可以諒解我們在既有的這個限制之下我們努力會來做推廣"},{"start":7838.123,"end":7840.685,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":7864.824,"end":7894.216,"text":"台南已經是最後最後我們才輪到台南不是現在獨厚台南我們在新竹原始的這個建制在新竹然後到台中現在都有非常大的資料中心可是台南南部沒有所以跟委員報告不是獨厚台南已經是現在才輪到台南建制跟大家報告這一點那其實委員提出非常多的這個問題那葛委員也提到這個八國的事情機器人的事情"},{"start":7896.246,"end":7918.984,"text":"我們當然一定會根據預算的這個編列能夠買到最好的設備我們一定會買最好的設備當然現在是預算編列等到我們得到預算在執行的時候那技術都一直不斷在進展那不然我跟他報告我們現在還排不到我們已經在排隊但是排不到一定是商業有價值的人家出很高的價錢像那個Aaron Musk他一把這個價錢"},{"start":7920.345,"end":7947.315,"text":"他自己出價提高了那當然那個NVIDIA一定先提供給他嘛所以很多全世界大家都在排隊啦那我們也期望說能夠排得到那排得到當然我們要以我們自己有辦法誘因說我們買這個設備將來發展以後也能夠增進他未來的生意連結到台灣的這個發展供應全世界我們當然是期待這樣所以我現在正在邀請我們的業界不是只有政府的投資業界也要投資"},{"start":7948.115,"end":7972.995,"text":"所以除了政府投資以外我們吸引產業也投資這個才是他真正未來要發展的目的因為這個樣子我也其實也接受葛委員的建議那剛剛你也提到我們在全國科技會議我們也也確定了確定了這個方向我們也會發展未來也會發展機器人所以國科會正在規劃一個新的方案將來也會提出這個機器人的發展也謝謝葛委員的這個這個建議"},{"start":7977.9,"end":7986.472,"text":"還是要一一逐一回答還是要一一逐一的回答逐一回答我們是要從前面還是"},{"start":7989.006,"end":8016.56,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。adequacy Act 覆蓋公務機關公務機關是很講究行政倫理跟軍隊一樣就是長官講一句話下面一定要服從行政倫理是維持整個政府運作很重要的一個機制但是當然我知道現在整個環境不一樣了我們現在連民法都改了連父母都不可以責備"},{"start":8019.212,"end":8021.114,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":8039.315,"end":8043.157,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院主管行政院主管"},{"start":8068.888,"end":8075.174,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。adequacy Act 規定國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算"},{"start":8090.667,"end":8111.94,"text":"目前的狀況我覺得很好讓我們現在的主管都體認到說未來的管理方式一定要有別於現在的那我們現在是遵照行政院的指示一旦有這種案件出來以後我們一定會進到會主委員會一定要進到這個程序這個程序我們又會至少有一半是外部的專家那外部的專家"},{"start":8113.321,"end":8134.271,"text":"進來以後跟我們會內的這個非督導的那個主管組成以後大家討論的結果可能這個結果就不見得會大家都滿意那因為這個我們也是在學習當中那柯委員提到一些事情因為其實我們會內也有那我們的這個法人機構"},{"start":8136.898,"end":8138.919,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":8162.101,"end":8181.293,"text":"調單位改非主管職或者是讓他能夠理解到這一點而自我可以調整我們有很多方式要同步來進行所以有關霸凌這個事情大家都在學習當中那我也希望說透過這樣的"},{"start":8182.754,"end":8205.254,"text":"這一波這樣的這個事件大家也體認到說這個管理的做法以後會完全不一樣了那希望大家也能夠開始跟同仁之間有不一樣的這個方式來進行那如果是一些真的是不合理的事情我很謝謝柯委員提及我一定會努力來改善"},{"start":8206.155,"end":8229.631,"text":"希望以後不要再發生會努力來改善那這個不合理的事情我也很感謝大家的提醒我們其實有一些事情這關於要回答但是其實因為案主非常多我看我有沒有辦法把一些大"},{"start":8231.408,"end":8234.69,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":8248.86,"end":8270.615,"text":"那一直在擴充需求越來越多所以我們有增加編制增加人力那個沒有辦法一下就拼滿所以缺出來沒有辦法一下拼滿我們找人也要跟業界搶人所以這個事情也希望這個委員可以見諒我們一定會努力來做等一下國防中心還有我們今年有10個計畫人力變成編制已經開始陸續都進行"},{"start":8274.318,"end":8299.391,"text":"好,就是信用能力要加快啦有,我們有在加速的,還有博士級人才培育我們總共有四個,培育博士級的人才好,那個剛剛提到捷克齁,有幾位委員提到捷克這個事情齁其實,其實他已經開始在運作了我們跟捷克已經談好這個運作的模式就是要加強這個學院合作因為我們,我們國科會,其實整個台灣都沒有本錢"},{"start":8300.939,"end":8321.329,"text":"每個國家要跟我們合作我們都派很多人過去幫他們上課。我們Follow原來的這個今年度要執行了我們其實今年度已經有派人過去都有那個按照那個原來的合作的這個協議有在進行但是從明年開始我們的期待是說他們學校也同意了"},{"start":8321.849,"end":8325.813,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。netesa"},{"start":8339.446,"end":8352.569,"text":"足夠好的這個環境教學的這個方式課程等等都有我們沒有辦法複製這些東西到所有的國家那這個效率是不高的所以我們的做法其實是要吸引國際人才到台灣來訓練訓練以後回到他國家去發展他們相關的產業那這個"},{"start":8361.735,"end":8385.592,"text":"大口徑那個我們科技中心那個全面鏡我想接下來有幾個那個國運院的事情我請那個院長來回覆好那有關大口徑的這個部分剛宏孟凱委員所提到的因為目前這個一科做國運院一科中心他其實已經發展到400出頭millimeter的這個口徑那提供給太空中心使用"},{"start":8386.288,"end":8388.811,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":8406.63,"end":8413.316,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":8428.618,"end":8452.043,"text":"那剛剛科政委員有提到就是有關霸凌我們科政中心的這個部分那我想這個當初我們知道科委員的這個提問我們就先就目前的狀態做回覆了那科政中心這樣回覆那不過科政中心其實同時同步也有在進行跟同仁的這個座談科政中心主任"},{"start":8452.783,"end":8479.127,"text":"那我們如果有收到因為我們其實這個程序如果任何霸凌我想國務院底下七個中心那其實都有這個所謂職場佈法侵害的這樣一個計畫這是根據勞動部的這樣一個計畫所以其實同仁如果他有填據的話其實這個都會受理那以目前而言呢確實也有這樣一個案例我們也"},{"start":8479.907,"end":8499.61,"text":"主同剛剛那個主委所述我們的這個委員組成的其實外部有一半那裡面進一步我所了解的是他會有所謂調查小組就委員裡面會有調查小組那這調查小組基本上都是外部的我想這個大概是跟柯委員報告一下我們目前的這個狀況"},{"start":8501.277,"end":8511.819,"text":"還有我們報給委員的可能那個比較簡短是因為我們法務考慮到各自保護的問題如果需要委員要看比較詳細資料我們應該也可以"},{"start":8516.165,"end":8534.214,"text":"我等下再統一回應你那個好我們時間的關係那個國網中心有好幾個跟台德相關的要不要統一關於謝委員的指教台德模型一開始釋出的時候因為他是台灣第一個釋出的繁體圓模型所以當落的數量自然很多那後來"},{"start":8535.835,"end":8551.976,"text":"大家把它download過去其實並不是說一個人一個人來用它而是它會加值加入自己的資料開發更進一步的model再去推廣應用那這個就是開源模型的基本精神所以呢我們會看到雖然download數字不多但是其實它還是繼續的在推廣"},{"start":8553.999,"end":8558.264,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":8574.609,"end":8601.32,"text":"剛剛那個陳秀寶委員提出幾個我覺得也都蠻不錯的我們會接受建議啦那有關這個森林建築竹簾下降這個事情當然我們有解釋過啦除了因為學生人數減少所以有些教授要提研究計畫人數減少他計畫數他不見得會提那麼多然後最重要的就是說我們也讓研究人員、教授"},{"start":8601.8,"end":8603.281,"text":"及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位"},{"start":8616.617,"end":8620.179,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":8641.087,"end":8642.328,"text":"科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":8659.895,"end":8682.27,"text":"他做這個實務型做社會實踐的這個計畫連結到我們的社會連結到我們的產業這個國科會將來都會鼓勵我們會再創造一些這種能夠協助我們的大學所有的老師願意做研究計畫我們將來都會鼓勵他們這個方案我們希望明年就會把它推出來"},{"start":8685.679,"end":8691.482,"text":"國科會的回答還有沒有哪一位委員覺得沒有回答到自己的東西我們可以再補充一下我們先請那個呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":8715.204,"end":8739.782,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝主委剛剛有蠻大篇幅在回應各個委員尤其就是特定的幾個議題那我想明確的跟主委確認所以剛剛您的答覆是說您支持我們在版權法因為你說版權法會讓台灣在資料收集上面可能很困擾嘛或者是說不太容易那版權法如果要修法我們現在在立法院嘛您支持嗎這第一個"},{"start":8740.242,"end":8758.087,"text":"第二個剛剛Blackwell就是所謂的B系列的這個NVIDIA晶片你說排隊排不到那我要還是要明確的問排了嗎?排了嗎?這是第二個問題第三個只是一個小小的溝通啦就是說看到您最近新聞有說有要組晶片國家隊"},{"start":8759.347,"end":8777.99,"text":"民間聽到國家隊都有點害怕原因是因為我們科研上只要冠上國家隊的其實長期來看沒有看到什麼結果但是我們相信這次不會這樣那也希望這次的預算跟國家隊有關的話希望我們是可以看到很閃亮的結果所以前面兩個問題還是希望主委待會再補充因為您剛剛這個沒有表達清楚謝謝"},{"start":8779.744,"end":8783.286,"text":"我現在是數位發展部他們負責在溝通我們當然是希望在學術研發的階段不要受到限制我們希望是這個樣子排隊"},{"start":8803.79,"end":8805.131,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術"},{"start":8810.663,"end":8835.335,"text":"我剛沒有聽到就是有關於那個前期離岸風電相關計畫會不會做一些分析啦齁因為我希望就是說因為我們持續會做這件事情嘛那我們應該做一個綜合的盤點檢討好不好這可以嗎好啊特別是因為委員提到海洋的問題齁我們我們有海洋中心但是我們只有一艘船啊這個研究能量實在是太低了啊所以我們也鼓勵因為我們我們的海委會有很多船"},{"start":8836.095,"end":8850.272,"text":"海委會也要建置海洋研究院那我們也鼓勵海委會進來如果他們要發展海洋相關的研究我們也會協助編列科技預算來增加我們的海洋研究能力"},{"start":8854.468,"end":8878.678,"text":"46案有關於人員禁用的問題那剛剛有說明說因為人力的需求是逐步在增加那國會也有來說明說醫科中心目前是已經全數禁用完成嘛所以其實這個跟我之前得到的數就不同所以這一案我就並動然後金額要減少至100萬然後我的第63案我要改成主決議"},{"start":8883.368,"end":8887.267,"text":"再往前,剛才還有哪位委員沒有被回覆到?孟凱"},{"start":8889.167,"end":8915.134,"text":"主委你剛剛講的一個部分台德的這邊那我想就另外一個命題要請教一下就是說人工智慧基本法從我們這個會期開始這一屆一開始就已經在詢問當時我記得你講說希望是年底可以嗎那現在7月出來之後到9月13號公告了兩個月之後我剛剛看了一個新聞也講是說你小福修正要報行政院那目前報行政院了嗎已經報了已經報了那什麼時候可以送出來"},{"start":8916.42,"end":8919.938,"text":"因為現在看起來今年年底是遙遙無期是不可能嗎?因為只剩兩個禮拜嗎?"},{"start":8921.572,"end":8949.051,"text":"人工智慧基本法其實某種程度上也是跟您剛剛有提到不管是我們這個台德生成式AI的發展等等的部分也有息息相關那你是主管機關你一方面你講是說這個隱私相關的部分但一方面我們一直在講是說你有人工智慧基本法我們才各部門有規則可循後續人工智慧的運用人工智慧的防禦人工智慧的任何的一個發展我們在based on這邊再上去對啊"},{"start":8950.452,"end":8952.533,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":8967.932,"end":8985.243,"text":"主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管"},{"start":8997.157,"end":9025.873,"text":"抱怨他有進到審查程序可是可能行政院還在忙很多事情啦還在忙什麼事情委員可能比我清楚我不清楚歷史政委你連這個你都講不出來還是怎麼樣那你怎麼會把這個問題又推到我們這邊呢其實我跟葛禄俊委員我跟外媒委員我們好幾位委員我們都從一開始就很關心甚至我沒有提我們的版本我們也期待是說趕快院的版本出來之後我們可以在立法院趕快審查"},{"start":9026.653,"end":9043.571,"text":"所以我們已經準備好在擔任啦你知道因為行政院我們現在比較緊急的還是在處理預算的事情如果預算不通過將來如果運作主委我覺得我沒有辦法接受這完全是兩件事情而且預算歸預算法案歸法案"},{"start":9044.392,"end":9067.188,"text":"我們這絕對不會是一體的部分,因為每個禮拜四都有開更會啊。我會報告院長趕快。主委你也要積極一點啦好不好。我很積極。對啊你要積極一點嘛。你看從年初講說今年年底可以出來,到現在年底了還是沒有辦法,那明年我不知道有沒有辦法期待。這第一個真的我拜託主委要更積極啦。"},{"start":9067.688,"end":9078.597,"text":"第二、六十二案的部分剛剛我有特別提到你說117年、119年世界的比較來講我們有沒有推算過世界的算力的部分因為我們其實我們也要跟國際比嘛"},{"start":9092.352,"end":9098.502,"text":"117年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案119年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案119年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":9106.943,"end":9125.209,"text":"我剛我先說一下比較單純78你剛我沒有聽清楚就是說目前為止我們希望你的台德的建制在繁體中文的部分有關於版權特別是私部門的版權的部分你們現在有開始在做了嗎因為你當時回應我就說因為現在目前受制到版權的層面所以沒有辦法把它納進來現在有在做了嗎"},{"start":9125.689,"end":9127.992,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":9146.873,"end":9148.774,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9173.287,"end":9200.883,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。netesle,您剛說有關801,您是很難說服我。我長期在學校擔任性平的委員。什麼叫做個資?所有東西的,你如果調查第三報告的話,你只把個人資料用圈圈,好嗎?沉默默,好嗎?沉默默。那個資料是多的,你現在用個資理由告訴我,你給我半頁是因為個資,你也騙我。不知道,我告訴你。只要任何學校的性平的部分,30頁都還不夠,然後那個"},{"start":9201.463,"end":9202.944,"text":"事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":9228.294,"end":9256.361,"text":"一般對你這個國科會的整個員工上面來說一個友善的環境這個才是一個最重要的不要拿過去你講那些理由我覺得那個東西很難說服人啦我還是認為我動了一千萬但是你給我一個最完整的你給我各自弄起來完整的報告我可以我還是要凍結但是我可以把一千萬變成五百萬或是三百萬就光是這一案國研院的這一案我還是強烈要求要給大家一個清楚的交代"},{"start":9258.953,"end":9259.513,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9289.605,"end":9292.828,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9318.712,"end":9319.333,"text":"一個禮拜一個禮拜一個禮拜"},{"start":9352.273,"end":9359.555,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":9372.449,"end":9377.99,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":9402.118,"end":9430.364,"text":"欸!跟委員報告齁因為這裡面有很多遺跡設備如果動的話很前期的很多程序會受到很大的影響剛剛葛委員也提到說像呃我們掛號嘛對不對那這些可能都會影響到我們後面的這個採購齁以上希望可以盡量降低齁謝謝沒有這個因為他這他整部是124億一趴是多少一趴是1.2億那對所以你不可能你動了比如說一趴"},{"start":9431.357,"end":9433.458,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":9453.709,"end":9482.035,"text":"應該一億吧一億好來范議員這個這個大家都這麼關心AI的進度喔什麼就是說相關的法規啊那這些儀器都是這麼貴重那你到時候要叫主委說誰的儀器先不要買所以我覺得就是說主委講的兩千萬很合理啦你動一億那你要講說哪一個機器先不要買喔不是那他怎麼分配不是今天動了一億他就他動一億他還有一百二十三億耶他還有一百二十三億耶"},{"start":9482.335,"end":9509.401,"text":"明年四月五月那半年就過了所以他儀器是在兩個月份要就要把整幕就要把一百二十三億都花完喔不是你要去簽約那個方面就會受到影響啊你現在我們現在都要排隊齁都要進到沒有主委我問一下因為今天大家光是這一幕就討論那麼久了討論那麼久代表說每個委員對你們的各項計畫都有很多疑問嘛那疑問的部分的話當然就必須要說明或是書面報告才能解凍嘛"},{"start":9510.277,"end":9516.661,"text":"這個程序是這樣嘛那你說大家講了半天要動個一點點因為你主要是說這一幕有124億"},{"start":9545.164,"end":9549.31,"text":"我們還是要肯定臺灣在這個晶片AI的發展但是"},{"start":9550.629,"end":9574.741,"text":"本席的感受是我們過去這段時間的質詢主委從來沒有一次這麼願意配合直接的很明確的回答問題到預算的時候才很明確的回答問題我覺得這樣子真的是我個人是不願意降我覺得就是5000這還不到1%喔這還不到1%所以我不覺得我需要降我希望未來就是好好的持續發展謝謝"},{"start":9577.322,"end":9580.586,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9593.92,"end":9593.94,"text":"亞靈委員"},{"start":9617.415,"end":9629.077,"text":"我想請問一下主委可不可以再詳細的說明就是說如果動了五千萬實質上面在你們在採購上面因為剛剛都非常關注大家都非常支持我們的算力要提升我們要有競爭力那實質影響可以再多做說明好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":9630.891,"end":9647.876,"text":"對,我們的確啦,大部分的這個預算在國民院因為是研究設備為主啦那當然那個葛委員也質詢我的這個問題我跟葛委員報告,人型機器人本身它是在台灣的發展並不是"},{"start":9649.957,"end":9651.098,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":9679.757,"end":9681.599,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9701.516,"end":9722.273,"text":"你看從這個1億當然在委員經過說明後它有降下來那這都是在原始提案的時候大家認為有從1億啦然後10%10%你看7億多然後這個數千萬人其實很多筆其實很多筆如果今天我們要一案一案來審理的話這個可能凍結數會更多所以我想在這個124億當中我們也不要說凍1%到這個1億"},{"start":9727.517,"end":9731.52,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":9755.362,"end":9768.785,"text":"這位先生他剛剛講說如果有動了一億他就無法買儀器啦所以你現在的意思是說前三個月你就要把123億都花掉是這個意思嗎那個看在主委面有難度我再講話啦所以你國科會的花錢是前幾個月就把123億花掉的意思嗎不是"},{"start":9775.827,"end":9800.958,"text":"對嘛那所以不是這個意思那我剛剛說動一億他就說沒辦法買儀器那這個是公然在欺騙大家喔?跟委員報告齁你剛剛的意思就是這樣嘛你剛剛的意思就是這樣你現在好像把他講的好像說動了一億我們就在阻礙學術的發展不是嘛你現在你有123億可以去處理一億的部分是說大家的疑問這麼多那希望你提出一些說明的方式然後來解凍"},{"start":9801.958,"end":9802.999,"text":"有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":9814.363,"end":9837.836,"text":"好 我們偶像我們停止討論啦那因為呢我們的這個目標跟目的很清楚那我也希望其實國科會在答覆的時候啊要能夠更審慎一點因為我覺得剛剛原志委員講的很對啊就是你不能說我們只要一要凍結你就說哎呀你連整個都不能運作了所有事情都被今天委員會阻擋了這個帽子就扣得太大一點喔那但是我相信你們也沒這個意思啦只是心急喔"},{"start":9838.656,"end":9862.442,"text":"我想我們其實是希望明年度執行任何預算的時候能夠有更準、精準、更明確的說明你們只要拿到出來很精準的說明、很好的計畫我想解凍案沒有不會過的所以我想我們就是凍結五千萬然後凍結五千萬用書面報告之後使得解凍好不好 主委第四幕就凍結五千萬"},{"start":9865.868,"end":9866.308,"text":"主席主席的部分我的是49、58跟68"},{"start":9896.398,"end":9912.007,"text":"等一下那個開始的時候我來宣告一下所以你們前三個月就要把123億花完?那你的意思就這樣啊?我覺得主委你們答詢不要這樣子情緒勒索沒關係啦不要這樣"},{"start":9922.622,"end":9943.287,"text":"他都不就事論事就扣帽子好像我們審預算就是在阻擺國家進步不要這樣子好不好沒有沒有這個意思因為你124億嘛就在受個動議因為他一開始明初就要規劃你沒有出規劃你沒有那個預算他可能會他不敢規劃你規劃你就送來就解凍啊不是應該有個可能性你就不解凍啊因為時程都要調他可能時程要調"},{"start":9952.749,"end":9966.378,"text":"那如果是這樣的話以後立法院都不能動?如果按照你的邏輯立法院一毛錢都不能動?因為你年初都要規劃?不是你合理的東西就是說動搭還要動?那你剛才說主委有責任要幫他壓縮會影響到所有人做嗎?不是那他要叫誰犧牲?就是說先不要?就是一點點而已"},{"start":9975.024,"end":9977.347,"text":"事費人事費人沒有辦法犧牲啊,對不對?"},{"start":9977.347,"end":9978.79,"text":"有些既定的行政費用。"},{"start":9989.862,"end":9997.19,"text":"有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算"},{"start":10008.271,"end":10012.779,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":10024.324,"end":10028.069,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":10046.607,"end":10051.47,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":10072.999,"end":10076.383,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":10089.301,"end":10105.807,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":10111.909,"end":10121.652,"text":"科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":10146.246,"end":10148.689,"text":"科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":10160.791,"end":10163.234,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":10182.112,"end":10189.878,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。 bicy說這個委員應該就這個項目。要不然我就會擔心這個項目。"},{"start":10209.993,"end":10214.676,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":10244.09,"end":10256.113,"text":"好,我們繼續來審查那我先來報告一下剛才第4幕我們改成組決議的案子是49案、50案、58案、63案、68案、69案繼續審查第5幕財團法人國家同步輻射研究中心發展計畫79案到85案好,哪位委員要先"},{"start":10277.219,"end":10277.239,"text":"1979-1985案"},{"start":10293.032,"end":10294.893,"text":"國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":10316.44,"end":10319.882,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。adequacy Act 實施在國府中心的業務,在台澳中子人才培育的部分"},{"start":10343.415,"end":10365.75,"text":"雖然你們有回復到112年有回復到35但是補助的主持人卻是不斷的下滑這其實我已經有提過然後你們在疫情過後的這個改變也沒有辦法讓更說服讓更多人來這個研究宗旨相關的領域似乎也證明相關計畫存續的必要性了所以我這個案子85萬我已經建議凍結300萬我很簡單的先做這樣的回應謝謝好謝謝智恩下一位"},{"start":10370.762,"end":10371.162,"text":"國務卿委員國務卿委員"},{"start":10389.203,"end":10401.034,"text":"這個新的設施的排成呢會變得太過擁擠我是建議說這個是不是能夠還是保持它的維運那如果我可以這樣同意的話我這邊的這個凍結也不做太多堅持謝謝"},{"start":10403.606,"end":10431.745,"text":"那我簡短的發言就是熱國不中心我們也是關心有關於那個TLS跟TPS的一個銜接的部分那因為有來做說明所以這邊我也不堅持我可以跟大家一起並動處理謝謝好謝謝雅玲佩儀有沒有我的巴勒斯案跟剛剛雅玲的體驗其實是一樣的就是有關TPS、TLS的銜接時程國公會已經有做說明那看起來是有這個彈性的時程所以這一案我就並動"},{"start":10434.235,"end":10438.618,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":10453.449,"end":10456.112,"text":"第六目非營業特種基金"},{"start":10473.44,"end":10482.968,"text":"還是要從後面開始好不好?好,我的90案我要改成主決議。好,快一點快一點。好,沒問題。"},{"start":10485.657,"end":10515.657,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":10516.258,"end":10536.438,"text":"第99案的這個部分呢,都是關於延攬人才的培訓的部分。97案是因為我本席有看了一下數據,就是這個女性投入科學及技術研究這個相關的業務呢,我們女性來申請的這個相關的這個案件呢,真的就少了很多,一直都很少。那是不是說我們"},{"start":10538.139,"end":10567.217,"text":"為什麼女性比較不願意申請計劃的原因是什麼我們如何調解性別友善的這個措施這個部分我也希望說我們這邊國科會這邊提供書面報告給我這個案子也可以改成主決議那再來就是關於審計部有對我們博士級這個研究人員也來提出檢討那你們也說會更積極的來協助我們相關的這些核心的這些設施的尖端的高階操作人才"},{"start":10567.717,"end":10586.049,"text":"但是我們應該是不是要鼓勵他們就是投入政治及產業來發展不是就一直用計劃型的經費來延續來短期的延攬這個部分我希望你們可以再對這個部分提出一個改進的這個方案這個案我也可以改成主決議那剩下100案的這個部分呢這個"},{"start":10587.39,"end":10601.884,"text":"因為大南方產業生態這個推動方案你們只說了一個這樣子的四大佈局那沒有明確的目標所以這個我希望說你們可以再做更詳細的說明這個部分我提供金額是500萬我不堅持可以跟其他委員一起並同處理以上謝謝所以秀寶你是97、98、99都改組決議嗎?好 配樂園"},{"start":10608.732,"end":10609.712,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":10637.146,"end":10661.769,"text":"就跟其他委員的案子一起并案凍結可是關於台灣精準運動科學專案的部分我認為國科會相關的監督力道必須要再加強那103的部分是關於AI我知道你們有相關基本法草案有公告了那我知道相關授權的工作也有在進行可是AI這幾年發展的議題我認為不管是公部門或是私部門常常是社會趨勢走在前面可是政府的法規範走在後面"},{"start":10662.79,"end":10687.637,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10687.917,"end":10711.134,"text":"跟其他委員的案子並動可是我們還是希望有機會也許在下個會期可以進行專案報告到底AI基本法跟相關資料授權的進度。好,謝謝培餘那我們有請葛國軍委員謝謝昭偉本席在第6幕有5個提案我就快速帶一下第92案是AI基本法的立法進度剛剛都提過很多了那我想這個我們跟國客會"},{"start":10711.994,"end":10720.179,"text":"主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院"},{"start":10741.17,"end":10765.974,"text":"這個最近這個狀況也希望國會會注意一下因為在有一些霸凌啊等等的情況之下我們也理解到了解到有非常多的專案都留到學校這裡去了因為沒辦法凹內部的人來做事就變得都凹到學校去了那我們希望這件事情是不可以的那但是我們也不斷的爭取啦那我們看到他們有一些這個加值國際合作擴充加值方案沒有編列管理費的狀況那我們有跟這個國會會討論"},{"start":10771.035,"end":10790.86,"text":"經過本席報告公司的爭取,有確定是只要還在執行的舊計劃114年1月1日一律回溯至113年8月1日起合給管理費。這一點本席要特別感謝跟肯定國會從善如流,迅速回應學校的意見。第95案也是大學教授的陳情,就是這個學生的國科會計劃。"},{"start":10791.98,"end":10800.187,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":10818.163,"end":10846.932,"text":"那本席有跟這個體育署署長有溝通過就是說未來呢我們有成立這個運動部應該要對於電競要做更多的支持同時電競也可能會跟AI發生關係大家可以去看一下XAI馬斯克的各種計畫那所以呢我希望國會會這裡能夠跟運動部未來能夠有更積極跨部會的一個機制去做電競選手的培育的機制的合作"},{"start":10847.352,"end":10857.606,"text":"大幅提升我們AI在電競選手賠率上的使用率那預算上我是覺得6個提案可以一併處理但極點也希望主委及同仁可以關注一下謝謝"},{"start":10858.96,"end":10885.549,"text":"好,謝謝劉君,不好意思因為剛剛一直沒有看到雅玲,那我們請雅玲委員先。好,我的案子是112案,那主要是這一個部分我是想要針對我們臺灣空間有序規劃的前瞻科技研究,我們可以建立一個更明確的合作機制。但是在說明,雖然我來做溝通,但是在這個溝通的時候只有針對於機敏資料的一些還有備援的部分做說明,但是合作的機制這部分我是還沒有看到,所以待會也可以補充做說明。"},{"start":10886.97,"end":10893.859,"text":"113案最主要是說我們希望因為6G產業發展是一個非常重要也是非常重要的技術所以"},{"start":10895.185,"end":10919.993,"text":"我知道這個主要是經濟部來主責但是因為主委也是這個政委嘛監督的政委所以我也是希望政委可以持續的來監督所以這一案呢我沒有堅持我可以改成主決議那在116案呢就是在這個精準運動科學其實就是剛剛培語講的就是這個抽血實驗啊違反學術倫理等等的那這部分的話我還是希望就是我可以並動啦我可以一直跟大家一起合併來討論然後"},{"start":10922.734,"end":10942.002,"text":"希望有這個書面的說明那117案呢主要是要去培育我們的下世代的科研人才但是因為我們在國科會在辦理2030的這個年輕學者的方案的時候我們發現國科會缺乏具體的目標值及長期成效的追蹤機制"},{"start":10943.903,"end":10946.424,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":10963.47,"end":10975.717,"text":"那我覺得還有一個重點就是應該輔導我們的年輕學者並不只是去學術單位可能也是可以協助他們如何進入產業來提供一些相關的輔導的就業措施"},{"start":10981.151,"end":11004.929,"text":"117案我也是可以跟大家一起合併討論並動那121案呢這個部分就是我們希望可以有更多我們學研成果的公開報告啦好那這部分因為也有來做說明所以不堅持122案呢就是關鍵技術我們關鍵技術那我可不可以來說明是可以看得出來現在是有一個既定的流程然後持續的來做那我"},{"start":11005.729,"end":11023.465,"text":"這部分我也不堅持可以改成主決議122案可以改成主決議那127案呢就基本上是在我們的IAI準備度那這個部分我有來做說明那我有一些對策啦那所以我也不堅持我可以來並動並動一起來和"},{"start":11026.516,"end":11029.037,"text":"科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11053.902,"end":11055.204,"text":"科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":11067.798,"end":11085.112,"text":"這一幕的部分我只有135跟136那我針對136來做發言這個部分就是加入國內的一些國內外的一個新創的一個團隊那留台成立公司的比例其實還是偏低"},{"start":11085.772,"end":11113.801,"text":"那這個部分其實我們還是希望就是這個就是相關的這個部分你們是不是可以來做一些就是這些團隊他們到底有沒有經過你們嚴格的一個盤點那我想肯定當然我也是肯定你們積極協助這個新創的發展但是有一些失敗的一些案例到底失敗的原因是什麼那是不是可以提供給我們更進一步的一個這個說明跟分析一下就是沒有辦法留住團隊的一個原因"},{"start":11114.361,"end":11125.405,"text":"那這個部分我沒有特別的堅持,可以跟大家一起並動一下。好,謝謝玉琦。接下來我們請吳春城委員。好,在第六目裡面我提的是114案、115、120、100甚至4。"},{"start":11133.703,"end":11148.802,"text":"前面三個案子就主要還是針對高齡化社會的問題那因為國科會現在負責我們行政院的高齡化科技產業的行動計畫"},{"start":11150.845,"end":11167.312,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11167.412,"end":11174.197,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11186.606,"end":11213.421,"text":"長期我們一直把高齡者定位是這樣子的所以公研院在10年前預估我們的銀髮產業會到3.6兆去年顯然整個的方向是有問題的所以整個銀髮產業沒有做起來去年修訂為3000億整整的剩下十分之一"},{"start":11214.861,"end":11232.988,"text":"那我覺得這個就是一個方向因為你所提出的這些設定並不符合現在高齡者的需要所以需要重新去調查現在稱為壯世代他們是要追求美好的第三人生不是只有醫療"},{"start":11234.528,"end":11258.534,"text":"照護上的需要而已。所以呢我想跟國科會也做了很多的溝通啦上次有到我們副主委也有率隊到這裡來也表示這個這個國科院願意做這個HLAB方面的研究我也非常的期待那如果這一方面那能夠"},{"start":11259.734,"end":11261.736,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11273.249,"end":11295.039,"text":"謝謝主席在這一幕我有四個案那107案是有關於傳染病防止研究那這一案我看國科會在研究成果上有成功開發出快篩試劑、重症檢測試劑等等那還持續在跟衛福部、農業部進行跨部會的合作所以這個案本席可以改組決議那再來是108案那108案是比較嚴肅的項目"},{"start":11302.902,"end":11302.922,"text":"國科會議員"},{"start":11321.051,"end":11325.633,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11339.938,"end":11344.359,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":11361.664,"end":11385.66,"text":"我覺得是不是可以來研議就是計畫主持人涉及霸凌形勢確定者來比照這個性平條例終止他的那個補助那我想這個來盡可能研議相關辦法的可能那這個案子是期待這樣子那至於要動多少我們在一起來討論那下一個案子是有關於運科"},{"start":11386.5,"end":11408.806,"text":"那我想運科其實我們特別這次棒球十二強看到運科這個初步的成果那現在我們精準這個運科專案計畫也進到第二期那我想再來思想說是不是我們運科的部分除了普及涵蓋更多的項目以外是不是來普惠全民"},{"start":11409.506,"end":11435.354,"text":"就怎麼樣讓運科可以協助身心障礙者的運科項目或者是來深入社區讓我們的市井小民也有利用運科來提升自己這個健身或自我實力的機會所以如何普及全民運動風氣讓運科深入社區這部分也請那個我們國科會做一些回覆那最後一個110案"},{"start":11437.495,"end":11460.047,"text":"是有關於原住民族文化數位保存的議題因為其實我們很多資料特別是原住民族的語言跟文化保存其實很多資料都還沒有系統性的這個數位化那我知道國科會有在做強化點藏跟應用的工作那可是我期待還是看到更多因為像說"},{"start":11461.397,"end":11465.02,"text":"有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11478.251,"end":11480.232,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11498.396,"end":11512.967,"text":"所以怎麼樣透過科學的技術來保存這些文化然後讓原住民族這個文化數位保存我覺得這部分期待國科會再加油好 以上謝謝于瑾接下來我們請林倩琦委員"},{"start":11517.624,"end":11536.245,"text":"謝謝張偉還有在座的同仁夥伴們在這一幕裡面我有五個案118、119、123、128跟131那我先講最後的期待跟希望的方向就是基本上我都會改成主決議那為什麼呢"},{"start":11537.466,"end":11541.871,"text":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":11559.628,"end":11581.277,"text":"那其實是針對計專院校那你們過去對於這個國立計專院校從事實務型研究計畫曾經有過一段然後當然在這個結果上或許大家不盡滿意那在現階段的也又碰到再繼續往前的一些困難那我這邊其實之前有提醒一點就是"},{"start":11582.54,"end":11606.418,"text":"也因為大家對於這件事情的可能不是很清楚然後其次呢是也跟我質詢一樣許多的寄專院校可能對於國科會給予他們支持的這樣一個過往的經驗感覺到不是這麼的正向或者是好像也不是那麼的足夠"},{"start":11607.299,"end":11607.96,"text":"主管行政院主管行政院"},{"start":11633.34,"end":11648.872,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。breviation 119案與原住民有關119案與原住民有關119案與原住民有關119案與原住民有關119案與原住民有關119案與原住民有關119案與原住民有關"},{"start":11662.762,"end":11673.537,"text":"是一個主導性或者是被研究者這個我們一直有一些討論但是我們希望在這個有關於原住民主題上的產學合作的研究能夠"},{"start":11675.272,"end":11697.445,"text":"更關注到原住民這個身份所以在這裡面不是只有原住民成為一個被研究的對象那這個部分我們希望研究單位能夠來正視長期所面臨到的一個問題好那有關於那個120接下來123吧"},{"start":11702.196,"end":11720.111,"text":"好那123的部分我們也談過當然這個我們其實談到科技含量的問題業務單位來講的時候但是這個科技含量用在原鄉怎麼樣被界定常常是一個你們在批准計劃的很重要的關鍵所以"},{"start":11722.83,"end":11740.504,"text":"基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":11750.111,"end":11766.015,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":11766.275,"end":11782.343,"text":"接下來是在128案的部分昨天有充分的說明了所以對AI的這個區塊我們就希望你們明年能夠繼續把這個指標給達到你們定定的目的"},{"start":11784.443,"end":11803.488,"text":"最後是在131案這邊其實最重要的就是對私立學校的補助其實跟前面我們所講我剛才提到的我自己本身在這邊114案有同樣的狀況也就是長期以來你們給人家的意向就有很大的大小眼我們講直白一點"},{"start":11804.208,"end":11827.756,"text":"所以你怎麼樣在如果我相信主委很清楚這個問題那主委也很有誠意要解決但是解決的方法上我不希望因為你們沒有找到那個核心的關鍵因為大家長年來已經都覺得是這樣那你們怎麼透過一個方式讓大家知道我國科會的支持是真的而不是講講而已還有你們已經好幾年都這樣子接下來大家怎麼信任你們然後真的會在這個過程當中"},{"start":11836.563,"end":11859.313,"text":"所以你怎麼樣讓這些可以來投案的單位瞭解你們現在是真的而且很短期內就會改善所以這個部分他是關鍵要不然明年我們會遇到問題說投件不多因為你們以前根本就沒有讓大家都覺得你們玩假的所以後來就不要投件了慶幸委員就是這全部的案子是到這一案那我就改成主決議"},{"start":11860.213,"end":11877.978,"text":"118、119、123、124、128、131、133"},{"start":11879.062,"end":11886.327,"text":"一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、四、一、二、八、一、三、一、一、三、三都改組決議,對嗎?一、一、三、一吧。一、一、三、一、三、三。好,謝謝。接下來,謝謝千祈。我們接下來請范瑩委員。"},{"start":11898.597,"end":11918.554,"text":"因為我的案子主要都是集中在這一幕我想先講我的86案86案其實是學界的朋友來陳情希望國科會能夠逐步來推廣國際學術研究領域申請計畫的一個補助指南重要指南就是所謂的DEI因為畢竟學術跟科技的發展都是要為人類的服務"},{"start":11925.619,"end":11951.068,"text":"那這個部分就是國科會的回覆我覺得國科會這邊做的我蠻肯定的啦因為你們有的確是我過去也質詢過那你們有逐步在努力那有召開過兩次的那個專家學者諮詢會議那目前也有七件大型專案已經開始導入在執行的過程中怎麼去推動那我想所以我這個部分86萬可以改成主決議那做一個就是肯定你們的努力"},{"start":11951.828,"end":11962.915,"text":"第87案就是我之前很關心的就是今年9月收到陳情永續防災空間三個學門那被認為未經討論就會被合併的問題那有600個學子我想大家都連署都知道了"},{"start":11969.059,"end":11973.941,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":11995.231,"end":12012.871,"text":"報告有講了蠻具體的就是你們未來的程序已經明定就是學門召集人先評估副省委員跟專家討論之後如果確定的話就會有公開諮詢會那我覺得這樣的程序是說得很清楚了可是問題就在於說沒有落實為一個"},{"start":12014.332,"end":12031.045,"text":"這只是給我的報告啊沒有成為你們內部的辦法或者是一個規範所以我這個還是會跟大家一起並動那金額度我也沒有要很高就是希望你們未來可以讓大家有一個公開的文字而不是只是給我的這個報告是未來的部分"},{"start":12031.505,"end":12037.17,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":12051.161,"end":12072.414,"text":"國科會其實是主導我們學術研究然後在公開資料上你們都做得非常的公開透明要查這個部分但是目前我們如果要查學術資料的話學術研究成果非常的分散譬如說有期刊論文的網站有TAIR、TOAJ太多不同的入口處"},{"start":12073.494,"end":12092.473,"text":"但是我們反觀那這樣造成大家找東西找學術或者不是學術界的一般的平民想要用的時候完全沒有辦法善用我們國內的學研的成果那我們看日本日本的CINII不知道竹尾曉不曉得他其實做得非常好他就是國家出資"},{"start":12093.394,"end":12108.337,"text":"建制的一個平臺那裡面可以就是說銜接到就是說國內外主要是國內的學者的就是說研究那讓國內外的研究者都能夠去就是找資料然後下載"},{"start":12109.258,"end":12125.862,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12126.084,"end":12128.626,"text":"第102案是個新案但是我真的很期待國科會來推動"},{"start":12145.643,"end":12172.693,"text":"主要就是過去其實在性別平等的部分國科會做得相當不錯那都有在努力譬如說學術研討會鼓勵就是能夠辦理托育因為你有經費出來的話有新的主辦單位就可以做那這個部分主要是我過去去開出國開大型的學術會議甚至不是學術研究會議像今年跟我們跨黨派的參加美國民主黨的convention大會"},{"start":12173.553,"end":12198.873,"text":"那我們就看到他們在無障礙的部分做得非常好跟我們簡直是你知道天差地遠的差別那我知道國科會下辦學術會議的單位很多能力有限那我們是不是能夠先從大型學術會議或者是你要從多少人以上的開始逐步鼓勵包含就是安排的輪椅使用"},{"start":12199.614,"end":12226.922,"text":"提供手語翻譯等等我認為這個做法上可以由據說因為這個需求是差異的至少你是不是可以設計類似表單有報名的人他的需求是什麼你就不會浪費說這次都參與者報名的人沒有這個需求從這個做起尊重個體差異有了正確的理解障礙者就能夠把重心放回自己的專業過去我們得到國科會補助的"},{"start":12227.935,"end":12255.197,"text":"女學會就發生我們有一位重要研究者他是輪椅就最後沒有辦法到會場然後最後很尷尬的還要有人來抬我覺得這種傷害他的專業尊嚴的事情那國歌會是不是可以開始逐步來做所以這個部分我也是跟大家並動希望國歌會要拿出誠意來就是我們的研究都是國際化的標準無障礙的部分是不是也可以開始努力就是國際標準去努力"},{"start":12257.379,"end":12285.199,"text":"我的第104案之前也有執訊過就是跟人工智慧基本法據說如何過程中保障大家的權益那你們的說明我知道你要橫向跟經濟部溝通就是著作權的部分然後要跟訴發部溝通AI風險防護指引那這個部分我都理解你們在進行中所以我第104案就可以改成主決議那第105案也可以改成主決議那就不說明了謝謝"},{"start":12286.926,"end":12304.701,"text":"好謝謝我們請柯志恩委員好三個案子129我想你們是支持台灣AI行動但是我覺得執行率是有問題的你們來討論過第三季雖然已經到64%但是我還是要說很多人對於你們這個科技辦公室是淪為計劃發包單位"},{"start":12307.043,"end":12312.945,"text":"然後沒有發揮跨部會協調是有疑義的所以我認為這要說明清楚所以我還是認為應該凍結500萬130案我覺得就是國會提出了大南方產業整個生態而且大肆宣傳說你5年要投入360億但是具體要怎麼樣執行我還是沒有看到你們問的你們也沒有說得很清楚"},{"start":12329.411,"end":12329.711,"text":"及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":12344.52,"end":12344.961,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":12361.92,"end":12363.542,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":12386.866,"end":12399.535,"text":"而且你們要怎麼樣去跟地方學校說明所以呢我還是非常好奇怎麼樣增強16萬學生哇塞我們大學聯考16萬學生你們要增強競爭力真的你可以兼教育部長了謝謝主委內宣到這個程度我覺得這一定要凍結沒有講清楚絕對不會解凍我剛剛講的是137"},{"start":12410.503,"end":12440.503,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12441.363,"end":12468.578,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們有請羅廷文委員下一位吳佩儀委員好 我是第91案先幫這個預算中心寫得很辛苦我也要幫他講一下統籌國家科技發展編列的五億二我們辦理這樣子的一個整個科技發展的項目科技決策資源的計畫我們想像現在現階段AI的行動計畫投入數百億但是我國的AI準備度"},{"start":12469.378,"end":12486.488,"text":"世界排名從111年度的14名下滑到112年度的19名。亞洲地區落後了新加坡、南韓、日本及大陸所以我想這部分我們應該有所警惕另外我還是在上一次我們有質詢有提到台灣距離諾貝爾獎越來越遠相較於1986年李遠程先生榮獲諾貝爾獎到現在38年未有學者獲獎"},{"start":12495.433,"end":12515.523,"text":"那反觀日本呢日本在1996年通過了科學技術基本法成立了科學技術委員會然後他們的目標就是要再拿下30個諾貝爾獎他們至今目標已經完成一半相較之下台灣的科學真的是有在繼續的後續的作為我們希望能夠再持續的關注那明年2025年台灣將邁入高齡化社會"},{"start":12518.024,"end":12519.925,"text":"基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":12540.191,"end":12560.222,"text":"這些技術如何跟產業能夠需求的銜接度這個都我們在我想主委應該不陌生我在質詢的時候都有提到我想如果能夠設立一個專門的一個研究機制來支持那是如果有的話具體的內容是什麼國科會可不可以有一個說明所以我在這邊凍結2000萬是不是請國科會有一個書面報告或者是專案報告我們再予以動之謝謝好謝謝謝謝庭委我們有請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":12571.032,"end":12571.312,"text":"國會委員會主委"},{"start":12587.008,"end":12606.381,"text":"好,非常感謝我們各位委員提的一些建議。那委員的建議我們覺得都蠻寶貴,我們會把它納到我們的這個施政的這個修正的這個方向裡面。那後續的報告也會依照委員的這個建議我們會提出來。"},{"start":12607.722,"end":12628.32,"text":"整體來講我也希望委員能夠支持我們的預算因為這一幕的預算其實是國會最主要施政的項目是要支持全國的學界來做科技研發所以大家也都知道這個領域非常的廣每一個處裡面有很多的學門這些學者我們都要照顧到"},{"start":12629.341,"end":12657.639,"text":"那剛剛我也特別說明過那個林憲起委員又再提出來的這個意見就是說我們少數的一些學者他領域比較特殊的或者是在這個技職在私立的學校這些學者他們過去不太敢申請申請這個國家科學計畫那其實也不是大小眼因為過去我們國家科學的任務在台灣要追求卓越的時候我們是以學術表現為主要的審查"},{"start":12660.92,"end":12680.305,"text":"學術表現大家在競爭的結果一定會有高低不是大小一定會有高低那審查都是學者之間的這個互評也不是行政在干預也都沒有全部都是學者但是現在台灣發展到一個地步我們在這個前瞻的研究一定要往前衝就是剛剛那個委員提到的"},{"start":12681.065,"end":12696.272,"text":"希望臺灣有諾貝爾獎得主所以這一部分我們一定會持續支持但是這一部分就是支持少數頂尖的學者一定要往前衝但是對大多數廣泛的這個老師他可能是在教學型的大學教學型大學是"},{"start":12696.792,"end":12702.115,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。adequacy Act 規定國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":12720.967,"end":12722.387,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":12752.238,"end":12766.206,"text":"國科會協助學界人數可以慢慢,雖然我們人口在減少,但是我反而是希望做計畫的教授未來還會再更多。我先跟各位委員報告到這裡。"},{"start":12772.29,"end":12790.863,"text":"主委,我還是忍不住啊,剛剛林倩琦委員是提到就是說他們有一關不管是私校或是一些技職的一個系統,你國家科學光是要申請你的計畫50%是你先前的研究,50%是你新的研究,它前面50%的先前研究被你們打回票了,他們那個分數都很低,所以不是你不是大小院,是你們的計畫的申請的"},{"start":12792.284,"end":12795.026,"text":"事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":12815.362,"end":12815.982,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們已經在修改這些規定了我們有在修改"},{"start":12838.649,"end":12859.816,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。netesa,您有讓他們這些技職或是一些從來沒有申請過,然後一輩子也沒有辦法拿到你們獎勵這些老師,有因此得到比較好的一個方式嗎?其實我跟萬兆偉也提過這個事。所以把它說清楚嗎?因為這個現在有一個新的計劃。有新的計劃會推出來了。你要把它說清楚嗎?有新的計劃會推出來了。你要稍微說一下嗎?不會以這個標準,我們會。"},{"start":12866.787,"end":12882.257,"text":"主委的計劃你還是沒有回答我為什麼你選擇那個健康照顧跟餐飲那個根本招生不足你為什麼選擇這兩個那個我想我們把它仔細的講清楚好不好因為那天我們跟主委就這個議題那主委有做了一個計畫出來那我覺得想死然後看看明年能不能落實這樣好不好"},{"start":12882.977,"end":12908.542,"text":"報告委員我們那個計劃往年叫鼓勵那今年因為主委上任之後特別強調這塊工作所以我們把鼓勵拿掉然後變成是我們常態性的計劃那過去計劃一般型大概上限是八十萬那今年我們已經公告了上限是一百萬那另外我們還有跨域施作的型是五百萬然後過去是一年增一次計劃現在一年要增兩次計劃標準不是我們我們我們請他請提出一些施作的場域因為我們希望"},{"start":12909.978,"end":12936.705,"text":"已經公告了這是我們的那個計畫公告然後大概我們11月就公告然後11月底有辦了一個說明會那因為其實這個計畫希望透過國科會的資源幫即時教育特別是實作學生的培育部分能夠強要他一些能力所以我們在計畫申請書是不看paper的主要是看他的實作場域跟參與企業跟學生的實作狀況那另外私校部分主委有指示我們下一梯次因為明年7月還有第二梯我會把它納進去作為一個一個計畫徵求一個重點是"},{"start":12939.106,"end":12967.018,"text":"所以其實你們這個計畫你就是要把它說清楚嘛因為我們委員大家都很重視這個技術教育然後因為我們過去的這些補助都是在幾乎新英社國立大學但我們也希望就是師大他有這樣子的一個意願喔也希望有這樣的努力我們要給他鼓勵所以有這樣的計畫應該要跟委員會報告清楚我們會加長宣導謝謝各位我這邊先查一下話主委還有那個輝瑞同仁喔有一點喔就是說你現在講我才知道有相關的計畫"},{"start":12967.938,"end":12996.417,"text":"但是這個相關計畫我們其實在之前是不知道的可是你們11月公佈了這又回應到我之前提到原住民的部分可不可以有個人的申請那主委很爽快的答應了可是等到你們做出來的時候公告的時候那根本又跟我提的又南轅北轍也就是說當你們給個別申請的時候你又給他限定在一個主題這就我一直反映你們不要讓原住民的研究就只有在族群只有在社會人文難道我們永遠跳脫不出來博物館的這樣一個思維嗎"},{"start":12998.152,"end":13019.166,"text":"對,所以這個部分也是一樣,所以不好意思齁,重點就是說,你們在我們質詢完之後,你們可以把你們做的東西跟我們實質相關的,讓我們了解,要不然我們利益良善,結果你們做出來都是另外一種限制,這聽起來這個也是一樣,剛才柯委員其實也很清楚的表述,就是說"},{"start":13020.566,"end":13039.356,"text":"幾個問題就是你們過去補助的樣態就是你們的規則嘛就會變成強者越強弱者越弱嘛到最後乾脆就不要申請因為跟你們你們遊戲規則是這樣大家就沒有辦法嘛那已經長期這樣子了那大家已經形成了一種文化跟你們申請你們也是沒有誠意的嘛就像我剛才講的大小眼"},{"start":13039.696,"end":13041.236,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":13064.028,"end":13083.394,"text":"所以我們要不要凍結,你們讓我們把計畫講清楚,我們才知道怎麼執行。要不然,我們現在講了,然後你們做的是另外一回事,那離我們講的方向差很遠。好,謝謝委員,謝謝。那范委員還補充,不用了啦。那個孟海委員因為剛剛去質詢,剛進來,那您的案子,然後你要做說明。"},{"start":13085.629,"end":13102.601,"text":"感謝喔這邊有兩個案子11111這個已經是老問題了預算中心這邊也都提了很多次但是每一次國客會或是相關部會都推給主計總署喔就是主計總署這樣編那我們每一次提出來的時候我們也想說那應該是各部門要跟主計總署這邊溝通要"},{"start":13104.002,"end":13107.823,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":13124.75,"end":13130.494,"text":"AI現在台灣AI行動計畫已經有1.0跟2.0了分別投入288億跟409億將近700億的行動計畫但人工智慧基本法勒"},{"start":13140.54,"end":13160.792,"text":"這個很現實嘛 當我們一方面國家都要拼命發展AI 這馬愛AI 黑馬愛AI 刷馬愛BOT 害馬愛BOT所有部會每一個人就掛個AI兩個字好像這個計畫就變新的一樣但另外一方面我們的最基本人工智慧基本法到現在只聞樓梯響"},{"start":13162.193,"end":13184.742,"text":"所以在125案本席所提出來的第6幕尤其我針對的這個統籌發展5億多的一個經費凍結10%那我想這我就是會堅持我這凍結10%的一個部分那其他可以併整個幕但我至少這凍結10%這邊我堅持然後等我們AI人工智慧基本法"},{"start":13185.765,"end":13195.813,"text":"主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院主管行政院"},{"start":13216.954,"end":13243.131,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13244.838,"end":13244.898,"text":"主席"},{"start":13274.838,"end":13303.575,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13307.461,"end":13308.847,"text":"教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":13310.218,"end":13326.567,"text":"國科會在114年度預算案主決議的部分來我跟大家全部報告一次140140案到150案國科會遵照辦理我們照案通過146案郭昱賢有一個案子撤案那147案到154案國科會遵照辦理我們照案通過"},{"start":13337.694,"end":13353.272,"text":"155案156案文字修正後按照修正通過157案到168案那國科會增照辦理我們照案通過然後南部科學園區管理局以上"},{"start":13364.915,"end":13376.542,"text":"主席主席抱歉我知道我還是要提一下啦剛剛第6幕的一個部分齁既然主席也已經裁示說凍結5000萬啦那但是其實我的部分125萬我是凍結10%其實是5200多萬啦"},{"start":13381.365,"end":13393.563,"text":"我尊重主席才是連這兩百萬也不要凍結我尊重但是我要求說明年的解凍條件一定是行政院這邊要送出人工智慧基本法"},{"start":13394.921,"end":13415.532,"text":"以及你相關書面報告其他委員要什麼書面報告因為我只有提125案所以其他委員要什麼書面報告這是要尊重其他委員但一定還有包括說行政院這邊要送出人工智慧基本法到立法院我們這邊才有可能解凍好不好好我們把它記錄下來但是明年的解凍案的時候我們來處理"},{"start":13417.227,"end":13419.988,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":13448.638,"end":13450.279,"text":"對稅數的部分170案羅廷維委員在哪裡170案"},{"start":13476.122,"end":13493.467,"text":"大陸旅遊費他們有來說明但是我想詢問一下這筆費用如果編給你們,你們有辦法去嗎?我們還是遵照政府的政策政府的政策就是鼓勵說不要去嗎?如果是這樣我們就會這樣我們這個部分就凍結28萬好不好?國共會是沒問題吧?"},{"start":13498.08,"end":13501.621,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":13527.096,"end":13551.552,"text":"我這邊有提凍結100以上好第一幕凍結100萬國國有沒有意見沒有問題好那我們就凍結100萬我們書面報告之後使得動之是的是的第四幕第四幕是從172案到179案我們剛剛是後面還是前面好我們從前面來有沒有"},{"start":13554.448,"end":13556.952,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":13560.285,"end":13584.401,"text":"好,我提的部分最主要是因為農產園區雖然出租率有達98%但是只有4家的機體電路廠商進駐啦我自己是覺得說雖然有來做說明但是到底要如何去提升我們更多的廠商的進駐率那個誘因我現在是看不太清、看不太到啦所以還是希望可以跟大家可以再有詳細的書面說明那我這部、我這一個案子可以跟大家一起並動處理,謝謝好,有沒有其他委員在"},{"start":13585.615,"end":13589.317,"text":"：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":13601.553,"end":13604.114,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":13624.181,"end":13643.788,"text":"大陸地區旅遊我想就直接動了吧22萬國科會有沒有問題沒有問題沒有好來接下來一樣是書面報告以後使得動之是然後再來我們看到第一幕一樣是羅廷瑋委員來我請教一下國科會凍結100萬有沒有問題好沒有問題所以182案我們凍結100萬書面報告之後使得動之第4幕的部分我們園區業務的推展從183號到187案"},{"start":13655.38,"end":13683.445,"text":"來張雅琳委員好那這一案我主要是在討論我們的臺中園區的一個擴建的進度啦那因為有來做說明所以這部分我就不堅持那我可以調降我原本的凍結可以改成50萬謝謝好那本席在這裡也有184、185、186等下跟大家一起隔壁院沒有來然後第四幕張雅琳委員調降到50萬那那個我想這樣好不好這一幕我們就凍結100萬"},{"start":13685.441,"end":13692.948,"text":"好,那書面報告以後使得動機。南部科學園區管理局稅入,那這部分有沒有問題?沒有問題。好,那我們就一樣。"},{"start":13696.963,"end":13700.685,"text":"政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":13720.014,"end":13733.581,"text":"好,那這個191案針對是南部我們的科學園區的一個中語部的一個招生,那有來做說明我也可以理解,所以這部分我就不堅持,我可以改成主決議。謝謝委員。好,那個羅廷瑋委員。192案齁,都大致相同。那我是凍結100萬,謝謝。"},{"start":13742.52,"end":13768.88,"text":"好,那我們在第一幕的部分我們就凍結一百萬,國科院沒問題?沒有問題好,那我們凍結一百萬書面報告之後,使得凍資第四幕,園區業務推展那羅庭玥委員?照提案,謝謝好,那這部分193案本席也有提案那我們就併案凍結一百萬書面報告之後,使得凍資好,謝謝委員好"},{"start":13773.806,"end":13801.602,"text":"主決議的部分195、196、197案我們照案通過191案改組決議那個雅琳的案子各位現在我們來繼續審查拿出行政院國家科學技術發展基金"},{"start":13802.847,"end":13815.222,"text":"有都拿出來了嗎?有,好。我們先從基金來源喔。準備好了嗎?校保委員。"},{"start":13822.911,"end":13831.136,"text":"主席,基金來源的部分呢,我這邊是提希望說,本來是說要增列1500,因為其實114年度財產收入的全基金收入是編列是10億1017萬9千元。"},{"start":13839.201,"end":13855.044,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學"},{"start":13865.646,"end":13887.154,"text":"科學這邊有來說明有來討論過後我可以接受做出增列1000萬以上好那我們在基金來源的部分我們就增列1000萬好接下來我們來看基金用途基金用途的部分的話我們先看第一部分是第三案到第19案"},{"start":13890.309,"end":13917.163,"text":"來我們羅廷惠委員我們這是不是從後面啊對啊好來來羅廷惠委員好台灣市售中藥材喔有部分仰賴進口品質常常因為來源不同極大差異國科會就導入數位科技協助中藥材的品質管理開發DNA的藥材作為鑑別技術這個之前我有質詢過喔前主委有口頭允諾我要做但是到現在都沒有做所以我很堅持喔所以要動五千萬那我幫那個吳春城委員講他說改組決議以上"},{"start":13919.975,"end":13935.325,"text":"對不起我有檢列一千萬凍結五千萬謝謝我是第七案好所以檢列也堅持嗎好來下一位是的我們順序過大家就舉個手好嗎我們現在是從後面開始陳培宇委員"},{"start":13940.282,"end":13970.282,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13971.703,"end":13973.444,"text":"科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":14000.394,"end":14015.1,"text":"第三案、第四案、第十六案我都改成組決議,那第十四案因為政大的老師來跟我溝通過,所以呢我還是要求在組,我可以把它改成組決議,但是我要求在有關於提到的"},{"start":14015.74,"end":14041.045,"text":"明年會改政案的方式而且有關研究團隊的問題我希望能夠反映在組決議當中好不好所以變成3、4、14、16我改都變成組決議但是14我強調裡面的組團隊組成的部分要明確的在組決議裡面反映出來那其他的部分在第12案的部分我還是建議我我"},{"start":14042.265,"end":14052.295,"text":"有來過說明但是我認為說明不夠所以我還是要認為應該是動300萬的這樣子一個案子我就不多說了好不好好謝謝"},{"start":14063.393,"end":14077.322,"text":"本席的10案跟國務軍委員11案還有柯政委員12案其實都是一樣培養優秀學者我們都期待我們也希望是說能夠為台灣多一些這個新興的一個人力但是對於我們的這個國科會計畫不能說只是"},{"start":14080.194,"end":14104.921,"text":"給予相關的補助但是沒有做後續的一個培養或是說後續的這個持續的追蹤甚至我們還是要持續的累積不然一年又一年的這個績效沒有累積的話我覺得非常可惜所以我們才會講是說你包括後續的這一些獲得的一個補助應該要有相關的一個績效指標以及後續追蹤就業等相關的狀況"},{"start":14106.28,"end":14113.447,"text":"本席提出這一個項目裡面凍結5%那我也看到是說有委員凍結2000萬以及剛剛柯志文委員凍結300萬我想取一個中間值"},{"start":14119.292,"end":14146.936,"text":"羅廷偉沒有五千萬啊他是整目我現在講的是就針對我們第十案、十一案、十二案這三案裡面的十七億九千多萬的培育優秀學者研究計畫的部分那我建議就取個中間值就葛盧君委員的凍結兩千萬以上謝謝好那我想還是是請那個郭貴惠則要回答一下"},{"start":14152.365,"end":14165.979,"text":"謝謝委員有一些寶貴的建議那我們會採納後續報告也會提出來但是我還是希望請委員能夠支持我們提出來的這些預算"},{"start":14172.482,"end":14194.437,"text":"動結數是不是可以我來處理好了那個動結數因為剛才那個羅廷偉委員有說他的部分他還蠻堅持五千萬那那個孟翰委員剛剛有把他的五趴然後在這一案當中那希望凍結兩千萬那我想是不是就全部一起並動五千萬相互加把相互不同"},{"start":14198.727,"end":14226.629,"text":"7千萬不是為什麼是上加?因為我們其他委員都還沒有表達沒有沒有那個是每一個人可以說他的想法嘛當然喔來那所以范委員你覺得呢我覺得這裡就是兩千萬就差不多了吧因為就是剛剛聽到並不是說明顯有什麼很大的問題然後都有回應的話那是不是因為我們前面已經動很多了欸那這裡是不是兩千萬就可以了"},{"start":14230.256,"end":14250.648,"text":"其實科技發展基金其實就是我們國科會主要的經費的來源就跟我們剛剛討論的那些施政項目其實就是相關的啦那還是期望那我們五千好了"},{"start":14253.235,"end":14281.024,"text":"我想主席這邊來宣告一下這個部分其實是不同的計劃案但是因為剛才廷輝委員他也有在他這個部分說得很清楚所以他希望明年的時候有更詳盡的資料可以給他我想孟漢委員的兩千萬我們全部整個整目就是併動五千萬國科會可以嗎?好 那就照明年的書面報告以後取得動之"},{"start":14283.13,"end":14296.382,"text":"第二部分培育研覽及獎助科技人才計畫二十案到二十二案議員之委員我是第二十案"},{"start":14299.421,"end":14319.162,"text":"台美人才交流科研合作史丹佛計劃史丹佛計劃我之前在質詢的時候有質詢過那時候主委有承諾給我們一個比較詳盡的效益評估但他這個是一年史丹佛計劃是一年會有1億可是我們看那個計劃其實還是沒有很了解說這個計劃效益到底哪裡只有看出來說他好像有辦一些活動"},{"start":14320.049,"end":14321.19,"text":"教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":14338.618,"end":14359.033,"text":"一定要回台灣來服務所以我不知道說這個計畫到底對於我們國會會的這個成立的目的有任何的相關那效益上真的是看不出來所以希望國會會可以提更詳盡的報告那我這邊是有凍結異議凍結到做並動但是我希望國會會可以給一個比較詳盡的報告"},{"start":14364.926,"end":14386.32,"text":"關於科普的部分因為科技基本法修正之後我們一直跟國科會溝通並不是只有所謂的辦活動或者是好像園遊會像這樣就叫做科普我們認為其實更上層的科普政策這件事情其實也非常非常的重要因為其實台灣有非常非常多人希望從科學教育的部分"},{"start":14386.88,"end":14403.547,"text":"科學傳播的部分知識轉譯的部分投身進入所謂的科普教育那如果只有活動或是所謂的市集、園遊會其實相關上位政策很不足我們也很難想像有更多年輕人願意投入這個所謂的知識產業所以這個部分我可以跟其他委員的案子並動"},{"start":14405.058,"end":14422.397,"text":"但是在這件事情上我們還是會持續監督國科會謝謝好謝謝范議員委員剛好就是那個剛剛講到的史丹佛大學的這個台灣的S&T Hub這個部分我有接到陳情那他主要就是說第一個"},{"start":14423.038,"end":14440.295,"text":"台灣能夠跟史丹佛大學有一個合作機會真的是非常的難得那它其實是對我們台灣的科技的影響力那跟我們的科技未來的發展其實是非常的重要那當然議員主委剛剛關心的東西就是說也是蠻合理的但是我不建議說在這個時候凍結這麼高一個很難得達到"},{"start":14444.019,"end":14474.019,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14480.482,"end":14496.769,"text":"有關史丹佛的合作案我們現在還在跟史丹佛在討論當中我們也會遵照委員的提醒就是有關雙方的權利義務就是那個明年度的計畫"},{"start":14501.973,"end":14508.396,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":14532.977,"end":14556.155,"text":"我想這個真的是要處理一下這個地方我們先暫停一下我想各位委員不管是我們是之前在哪一屆當過委員或者我們在上一屆到這一屆我們在教育文化委員會裡面其實我們在這個委員會裡面從第一天開始起我就說我們是很peace的大家都是為了教育為了文化為了科技大家在努力"},{"start":14560.256,"end":14566.829,"text":"有沒有哪一位委員的助理叫康宏祺那個我來處理好不好"},{"start":14568.471,"end":14589.624,"text":"沛宜委員,我是想能不能請你的助理可不可以把剛才PO在臉書上那個把它下架掉因為我們的委員其實大家進進出出那有的時候是到別的委員會去質詢有時候可能上個廁所有的時候可能像你們那天一樣你們去假凍你們沒有過來但是我們大家都不會去PO說哪一個委員又沒有來"},{"start":14590.504,"end":14597.129,"text":"我可以講話嗎?因為我現在其實不太清楚是什麼樣的發文那我認同趙偉剛的講法所以我等一下會來請拜訪所以不要影響大家開會的時間程序問題啦因為影響到大家開會的程序嘛"},{"start":14607.077,"end":14616.143,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":14635.503,"end":14651.153,"text":"那一天審文化部預算的時候早上我做一個早上結果你們都沒有辦個來只有范雲委員力戰群雄那我沒有去弄你們說你們民進黨立委都沒來嗎所以以後要這樣子搞助理可以這樣子破壞我們的會議嗎"},{"start":14655.014,"end":14657.435,"text":"教育及文化委員會第13次全體委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":14673.544,"end":14697.964,"text":"並沒有不知道這個發文那我也認同趙薇的意見我會來做處置我們是不是可以回歸國家科學預算的審查那我也已經同意了但我還是要再次強調剛剛葉元智所說的如果要各黨團自律的話那請黨團幹部互相的對話互相的尊重昨天我們在韓院長主持朝野協商的時候我們黨的助理也是一直推著我們拍照上傳啊"},{"start":14698.965,"end":14704.288,"text":"如果你要脫離今天會議的主題的話,那是不是大家要這樣無限制的討論呢?我認為這應該要回到黨團幹部之間的協商,這不是今天會議的主題。"},{"start":14712.708,"end":14734.213,"text":"不是這樣子嘛,我剛剛有說,剛剛我是有請院院主委員說明,請你解釋喔那我覺得我都很尊重大家,大家拜託也尊重一下主席好不好我們在教育文化委員會裡面去審查,不要去扯到那麼多的事情嘛真的是我們委員有的會比較慢一點進來,有的會讓其他委員會去做他關心的事項我們能不能在這個地方互相尊重一下"},{"start":14734.713,"end":14747.393,"text":"那發生這樣的事情因為也不是吳珮宜委員你自己去PO的所以呢我們就約束一下助理我覺得這個事情很簡單但不用去把這個事情扯大那當然我們等一下要回來可是如果我們是用這樣的態度跟這樣的氛圍去審查預算請問這要怎麼審查預算"},{"start":14749.844,"end":14751.305,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":14773.123,"end":14774.764,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":14791.83,"end":14815.697,"text":"所以其實葉元智委員只是要表述他不是要去追這件事他只是要表述說不管誰沒有進來其實大家不會這樣做那我們就拜託大家來主席拜託大家大家有緣分都在這個委員會裡面我們好好針對教育文化的項目去做這個質詢也好或者去做這個審查預算也好但是我覺得在人身上面的影響或是攻擊我們完全不要"},{"start":14816.497,"end":14819.121,"text":"第二項培育及研覽講座科技人才計畫一人之委員提議凍結一億"},{"start":14833.639,"end":14849.455,"text":"因為這一項動潛意義實在是太多了就無法執行了就是剛剛講那個跟Stanford合作就等於是無法執行了那袁志偉呢?"},{"start":14851.992,"end":14857.153,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":14879.123,"end":14899.315,"text":"我來報告一下我們剛才在第一部分的地方改組決議的部分是第三案、第四案、十三案、十四案、十六案、十八案主席這裡有沒有遺漏的?好,沒有那我們就進行到組決議23案跟24案我們就是照樣通過"},{"start":14903.578,"end":14921.894,"text":"好,那大家準備一下我們進行繼續科學園區管理局的作業基金大家拿出來一下在科學園區管理局的作業基金好,都準備好了我們就開始來,針對這個業務總收入的部分雅琳"},{"start":14928.905,"end":14954.197,"text":"我自己是建議啦我們這個部分是可以應該我們的收入應該是我原本是提一億啦但是我們跟國科會這邊科學人去這邊來討論之後他們覺得應該是可以到兩千萬啦所以我是希望這邊我們可以增列兩千萬好那我們在收入的部分我們就增列兩千萬好沒有問題我們就照案通過然後再來總支出的部分第三案到第八案孟凱有沒有好有沒有哪位委員"},{"start":14960.336,"end":14963.638,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":14986.189,"end":14989.05,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位"},{"start":15015.695,"end":15043.225,"text":"兩位委員要說明張雅琳委員下一位孟凱委員謝謝那因為這一案我是針對就是說我們其實是現在的營運績效評鑑沒有具有量化的一個標準那都是比較一個主觀的一個評分那會讓這個評鑑結果鑑別度偏低啦所以我們希望是可以建立一個量化的評鑑指標一個具體的計分標準和分類方法那因為國科會有來做說明也會找外部的評審"},{"start":15044.225,"end":15067.335,"text":"平建委員一起來並嚴定這個評分的項目與方式所以這個地方我沒有堅持我是可以降我的這個凍結的預算到200萬謝謝好謝謝雅琳那接下來洪孟楷委員剛剛本席提出第一案第一案這個國科會有跟本席來做討論那我可以改組決議以上謝謝"},{"start":15071.071,"end":15078.934,"text":"總支出凍結200萬,一樣是書面報告後時的凍結。主決議部分第五案,洪孟凱的案子,我們照案通過。好,各位我們繼續加油,我們來到這個國科會的這個國家太空中心,我們一樣看總收入的部分,張良營委員。"},{"start":15097.813,"end":15099.054,"text":"主席可不可以先請葉元芝委員先"},{"start":15126.528,"end":15141.255,"text":"可不可以請葉仁芝委員有事情可以現在等到會議結束之後再處理,不然這樣子我發言我怕前面大家會聽不清楚。好,那,仁芝你先做啦,我們快要審查完了。對啊,就差一點點,有不用現在這樣子干擾大家會議嗎。好了好了,他已經離開了嘛。你繼續發言。"},{"start":15148.752,"end":15149.032,"text":"江蘭英委員繼續江蘭英委員"},{"start":15180.302,"end":15203.481,"text":"好,這個部分我是這個第三案喔那主要是因為這個台灣的半導體跟精密製造的這個在地設備方面喔其實我們是有優勢的啦齁那這個部分呢其實進入這個地委衛星的一個時代還有哪些部分是需要補強的我想這個部分還是請國會會這邊詳細的再說明一下然後提供給我們那我沒有堅持喔這個凍結數是500萬那等一下可以並安一起討論好,謝謝玉清委員那接下來洪孟凱委員"},{"start":15212.193,"end":15229.103,"text":"好本席提出第九案其實這個部分我還是希望是說我們取得的專利當然應該要儘速的來推廣不管是給這個商用或者是說能夠更精進讓我們專利的部分能夠發揮它更大的一個效果"},{"start":15229.403,"end":15254.247,"text":"但是這個國科會有來跟我說明我也可以認同就是說有些時候有些專利他不一定那麼的好去做商轉這也是確實所以本席在這個部分就跟其他委員一起並動但我還是以期許的角度啦希望說我們能夠更推廣我們自己的一個專利的部分讓那維護成本編列但是我們也能夠用到使用上面好不好以上"},{"start":15255.267,"end":15277.842,"text":"好謝謝那我們就來處理這個總支出的部分的話我們就整個並動500萬好接下來我們來看一樣是要書面報告以後使得動機然後主決議的部分那我後面四個主決議都可以嗎對主決議的部分都是洪孟凱委員的案子11案到第14案全部招案通過"},{"start":15290.433,"end":15292.954,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":15322.572,"end":15326.26,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":15343.488,"end":15357.871,"text":"在裡面涉入是沒有問題而針對涉入的主項基金是否有問題但是我聽了觀眾的質疑,希望我們能夠解釋所以我剛剛當議員的主席他在訪問我請他在訪問我會希望主席可以同意我的解釋"},{"start":15370.439,"end":15373.122,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":15393.095,"end":15398.939,"text":"國際社會及社會科學及社會科學及社會科學及社會科學及社會科學及社會科學及社會科學及"},{"start":15420.231,"end":15425.774,"text":"國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":15438.482,"end":15442.025,"text":"2、繼續審查1、繼續審查2、繼續審查3、繼續審查4、繼續審查5、繼續審查6、繼續審查7、繼續審查8、繼續審查9、繼續審查10"},{"start":15457.398,"end":15463.404,"text":"國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":15477.551,"end":15498.814,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":15498.814,"end":15505.878,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":15525.404,"end":15527.867,"text":"科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案。"},{"start":15541.445,"end":15557.897,"text":"科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":15564.421,"end":15569.729,"text":"國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":15581.625,"end":15585.666,"text":"有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":15609.67,"end":15612.732,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":15632.964,"end":15638.047,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":15660.017,"end":15665.142,"text":"124年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":15693.168,"end":15695.29,"text":"國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":15719.94,"end":15734.71,"text":"有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術發展基金附屬單位預算案有關"},{"start":15765.908,"end":15766.469,"text":"都處理好了嗎?"},{"start":15775.136,"end":15775.396,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15792.403,"end":15799.646,"text":"我們今天的所有的預算案改組決議的部分請各位委員也聽一下11案、17案、26、36案、49案、50案、58案、63案、68案、69案、86案、90案"},{"start":15808.49,"end":15828.729,"text":"97、98、99、104、105、107、113、118、119、122、123、124、128、131、133、139、191"},{"start":15830.97,"end":15850.066,"text":"科發基金改組決議的部分第三案、四案、十三案、十四案、十六案、十八案作業基金改組決議第八案災防中心改組決議第一案以上有沒有遺漏的地方?沒有,那我們就照案通過"},{"start":15853.001,"end":15877.805,"text":"好,今天的審查結果免於重複宣讀在不影響文藝前提下授權議事人員依114年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商之範例整理列入記錄114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案及114年度行政法人國家太空中心預算案均已審查完略"},{"start":15882.743,"end":15911.002,"text":"有需要交黨團協商嗎?沒有嗎?好,沒有,好關於今天會議做如下決議114年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會與所屬單位預算案行政院主管行政院國家科學技術發展基金附屬單位預算案國家科學及技術委員會主管科學園區管理局作業基金附屬單位預算案全部審查完均"},{"start":15914.02,"end":15932.392,"text":"114年度行政法人國家災害防救科技中心預算案及行政法人國家太空中心預算案均審查完均,擬據審查報告提報院會,不需交由黨團協商,院會討論時由召委我本人補充說明。"},{"start":15933.132,"end":15946.066,"text":"然後對於這個委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分請相關機關儘速以書面答覆報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":15952.244,"end":15965.828,"text":"議員會議員議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":15970.228,"end":15974.934,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會及所屬單位預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"},{"start":15988.032,"end":15988.252,"text":"一、二、三"},{"start":16018.915,"end":16020.259,"text":"總預算案有關國家科學技術"},{"start":16028.797,"end":16057.978,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":16064.668,"end":16068.815,"text":"同時審查124年度中央政府總預算案有關國家科學及技術委員會及所屬單位預算案"}]}},{"id":"16394","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16394","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d19061065897f096c9b5fa2f296a9353478081dad70f87c46dd6b791f5e505b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（不含國家安全局部分)。（處理）12月16日、18日及19日（三天一次會））","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-19T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T16:12:00+08:00","duration":27721,"影片長度":"07:42:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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161案這個就是列銷案攻擊無人機飛彈系統這個預算怎麼處理"},{"start":2035.032,"end":2054.788,"text":"第三個一到第二輪的是268案到271案遣件國照第三階段後續件籌件我們昨天改組決議的是原型件海昆號的二階段改組決議預算都照列"},{"start":2056.289,"end":2072.582,"text":"昨天移到二輪的是潛艦國造的後續艦第三階段的籌建昨天也經過大家充分溝通部長也回復不凡我們雖然是要籌貨7架7艘但是第一次簽約是兩艘而且這個簽約會根據當時的裝備當時的價格並不會說一次去簽14年的約"},{"start":2081.409,"end":2096.184,"text":"昨天有做說明我們希望在第二輪的時候能夠順利昨天大家很辛苦這個才是委員會中心主義昨天我們這樣討論到現在僅有三個案三大類的案移到第二輪徐委員找到了"},{"start":2097.951,"end":2106.415,"text":"好來我們370案這個需要委員意見那因為呢我先跟大家說明一下齁那我從370案往後以後很多都是針對這個當時縣指部呢211營發生這個憲兵舉槍自傷的事件那尤其是當時喔這個跟顧部長是沒有關係的齁就特別跟您說明特別要向大家說明一下避免誤解"},{"start":2125.083,"end":2126.024,"text":"那時候被大家發現說縣指部的高層在立院答詢的時候說都有佔兩歇六這些發言是記載在公報中後來才發現說其實不僅沒有"},{"start":2140.054,"end":2153.382,"text":"甚至有站二先二、站二先一的情況可能在人力上面配置當時也有所不足所以後續縣指部這邊也做了一些改善但是我想我們在預算審查的時候還是要稍微予以懲戒讓大家能夠知道這件事情然後大家可以更用心面對錯誤"},{"start":2167.791,"end":2171.755,"text":"所以說因為他有好幾個所以我想我挑一個小幅度的刪減跟凍結然後我再來就是一個主決議剩下都讓他們照列通過相關的部分所以我們現在看一下先問一下國防部這樣可不可以"},{"start":2193.254,"end":2203.599,"text":"我簡略（因為我簡略的有（第370（373（373來我看一下373這樣好不好用373按著動著檢你把數據提出來好那373你們的數據來提出來一下373因為你要逐一呈見嘛來凸顯這個當時回答的草算對對對我主要是為了這件事情金額的部分金額的部分有委員來提啦好"},{"start":2223.004,"end":2224.245,"text":"國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（"},{"start":2244.273,"end":2261.207,"text":"主席,這是幫你處理這件事情。剛才那一筆是基層單位的便當錢。不要動那一個。那那一筆照列通過好不好。我那一筆看錯了。來,等一下,沒問題沒問題。等一下等一下,我們找一下。373,你要幫我翻到373呢?"},{"start":2263.109,"end":2276.019,"text":"等一下我們找一下不好意思因為我想說這樣一次處理掉對大家來說是比較快速的因為你有簡略的只有373那沒問題那我們就用凍結的就好了好不好我找螢幕來凍結37等一下那個趙烈通過我等一下會講對那個都有373"},{"start":2288.565,"end":2290.366,"text":"三七零可是這個金額它的原列數就不高了那我看一下往後翻喔三七"},{"start":2311.26,"end":2320.364,"text":"372372是黃人的那是黃人的等一下我看一下因為其實我一直都沒有要那個啦我哪一幕看一下教育訓練呢374教育訓練"},{"start":2324.966,"end":2346.982,"text":"我講374那個母數就不高了啦不不不 我要看後面比較多的對 377你覺得377動員整備這一筆好不好377那是馬文君委員的我看一下你的在37其實因為我都很少啦我沒有要委員那個母數都不高啊對啊母數不高沒有關係啊因為我就是燒魚凍結而已啊"},{"start":2351.211,"end":2375.93,"text":"三七零三七九可是三七九是那個裝備裝備不要了我們用三七零好了三七零動十趴好不好三七零剛才建議的是多少錢建議是凍結十萬元十萬元可以啊十趴十二萬他十趴是不是不太行十趴就十二啊差不多了十二萬可以嗎"},{"start":2377.139,"end":2377.279,"text":"本期的財事"},{"start":2405.503,"end":2428.922,"text":"三百七十案限止部的業務費凍結十二萬就是百分之十然後書面報告後使得凍支請同意使得凍支那書面報告內容請涵蓋委員書面跟口頭詢問部分再來三百七十一到三百七十三案請說明"},{"start":2430.267,"end":2453.928,"text":"第371至373案行政事務為馬文均委員、黃仁委員及徐曉興委員共同關切371及373案為馬文均委員及黃仁委員共同關切憲兵兩要因兵員不足373案為徐曉興委員指導各層及主管訊息傳遞衛生周延審密本部均已向委員辦公室說明及提交說明資料建請同意並按改列為主決議懇請委員指導"},{"start":2457.113,"end":2464.879,"text":"來馬委員謝謝同意改列組決議這個提案主要也是希望可以中式邊線筆還有情務分配的合理性好我們來處理這個案子哈371馬委員提案改組決議372不予處理373同意照列來再來處理3來請說"},{"start":2479.11,"end":2481.953,"text":"三七四到三百七十五案那這個剛已經溝通過了同意照列再來376案請說明"},{"start":2501.567,"end":2521.793,"text":"第三百七十六萬贈贈綜合作業為馬鴻鈞委員關切通訊費增加原因不明本部前以自委員辦公室說明並提供完整資料竟請同意預算照列根據委員指導謝謝馬委員謝謝主席這個部分我們同意照列不過我們希望因為我們現在在木兵的部分或者其他的業務就是說"},{"start":2523.894,"end":2531.096,"text":"我們可能有給電話費然後可是沒有給手機所以如果說像聯輔導長或者有工商手機需求的比較基層的單位希望他們是可以申請這個手機雖然不好用可是你至少不用自己再花錢買不然你的手機本身就要有雙卡的功能所以這個部分我們希望可以做到這個這個訴求那另外"},{"start":2551.69,"end":2576.266,"text":"好OK所以同意照列啦同意同意照列然後請憲兵就這些意見評估一下是對因為當買手機還有一個財產財產的維保的問題因為我們本來就有手機啊他們做了很多手機啊他們那個那種不好用的那一種對啊可是因為他只是募兵或者一些通知這樣而已啊好來我們剛才是在377嘛376"},{"start":2584.084,"end":2589.212,"text":"376照列來377請說明第377案動員整備為盲軍委員關切114年較糟人數及預算編列問題本部遷移至委員辦公室提供完整資料並說明"},{"start":2597.099,"end":2603.304,"text":"建請同意改列為主提議根據委員指導來毛委員好 謝謝這一提案同意改組決議不過我們主要發現的是我們現在作業費都編得很寬人事費就編得比較緊而且人事費是要回國庫的那作業費你編得很寬它是可以留到管制預算那所以這個部分因為我們看到我們教召的人數比113年還要多就是"},{"start":2626.323,"end":2627.084,"text":"教召的薪水變少嗎"},{"start":2644.229,"end":2644.769,"text":"總數應該要變多,總數沒有變多,是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":2663.299,"end":2663.44,"text":"378案請說明"},{"start":2687.981,"end":2700.91,"text":"第378案通信電子與資訊管理為盲軍委員關切站臺編列電路費問題本部建議自委員辦公室提供完整資料並說明進行同意預算招列懇請委員指導來那個提案委員"},{"start":2705.979,"end":2716.445,"text":"三七八、三百七十八、通信電子同意照列同意照列好三百七十八案同意照列來三百七十九案這個我們昨天是不是都統凍十趴"},{"start":2719.547,"end":2736.051,"text":"因為統動了齁所以這個部分就是照列 主決議就可以了好不好沒有就用你的動10%就可以啦一樣沒有那個我先問一下謝局長我知道謝局長我們昨天是不是這個新式手槍步槍的好像都動10%是不是"},{"start":2738.692,"end":2739.092,"text":"徐委員同意照列徐委員"},{"start":2759.343,"end":2761.645,"text":"我們379案凍結10萬書面報告這書面報告就好了啦書面報告適合動之對不用精通"},{"start":2788.387,"end":2789.729,"text":"好再來380案到382案請說明"},{"start":2795.492,"end":2817.7,"text":"第380至380案遙控無人機防疫系統為徐曉勳委員、華倫委員及馬文君委員共同關切380案為徐曉勳委員關切干擾系統性能應重新評估381至383為華倫委員與馬文君委員關切進度延宕問題本部請以提供說明資料與委員辦公室並致委員辦公室實施說明見及同意併案凍結一千萬懇請委員指導"},{"start":2820.123,"end":2820.143,"text":"徐維園"},{"start":2833.769,"end":2834.329,"text":"你跟馬委員你跟馬委員來我們聽一下馬委員意見"},{"start":2859.065,"end":2883.533,"text":"好謝謝這個部分同意改動一千萬其實理由很簡單他就是進度落後還有裝備沒有取得所以這個部分凍結一千萬如果有完成以後我們就解凍好380到382案以馬文君委員的提案為主提案並按處理凍結一千萬書面報告經同意後使得動之好383案請說明"},{"start":2886.584,"end":2902.282,"text":"第383案國軍警備勤務車臺患為馬鴻軍委員關切增防機車採購問題本部遷移至委員辦公室提供完整資料並說明建請同意預算照列懇請委員指導來同意照列好383案同意照列我們處理384到385案"},{"start":2905.868,"end":2918.534,"text":"第384案及385案無人機反制系統違反軍委員及林玉君委員共同關切進度問題本部軍已致委員辦公室提供完整資料並說明建請同意併案凍結500萬提出說明書面報告後時得動之根據委員指導來那個提案委員那個林玉君召委"},{"start":2932.469,"end":2938.175,"text":"針對385案因為陸軍的統建編列有9.8億然後招標建制有26套的無人機反制系統然後光這個的話憲兵指揮部就配到3800萬元購買然後這個計劃已經流標兩次了整個計劃都一直在延宕還被審計部提出審核"},{"start":2953.092,"end":2954.634,"text":"所以縣指部雖然有來說明但是他們在今年的11月21號開標那規劃12月上旬的話裝備驗測那今天已經12月19號那驗測了沒"},{"start":2967.625,"end":2983.391,"text":"入軍統建向委員報告這兩個案子在前兩週的POC目前都達到合格後面會需採購的程序來辦理評選你的合格我要提醒一件事情我們有三個東西要整合在一起"},{"start":2984.411,"end":3007.892,"text":"你不能用單獨計分然後加總總分那不叫三個整合你必須是三個功能哪三個功能我就不講了要這三個功能的綜合分數也就是三個同時開啟否則我一二項拿高分我第三項拿零分這就不叫三項整合你懂我意思嗎我上次有跟你們提過"},{"start":3009.574,"end":3025.015,"text":"這個標案內容廠商我都不去討論但是我們國軍要籌會一個整合三種功能那就要三種功能都存在都堪用如果三個功能有兩項非常傑出優秀很高分結果另外一個"},{"start":3025.916,"end":3028.237,"text":"馬委員有意見嗎?我跟林昭偉是一樣的意思他簡單就是進度落後還有剛剛應該要求的條件他必須要求所以還是凍結"},{"start":3053.292,"end":3063.854,"text":"動輒剛才輸的是500嘛好這個是384、385無人機反制系統動輒500萬元書面報告經同意後使得動支來386漢請說明第386漢兼徵行無人機為林益君委員關切性能腰症及其他問題剛才384、385以林益君委員的當主題案好了然後並案動輒500萬書面報告經同意後使得動支來繼續386"},{"start":3083.257,"end":3097.694,"text":"第386萬兼徵醒悟人及委林益君委員關切性能要求及價格問題本部簽一致委員辦公室提供完整資料並說明建請同意改列主決議藤青委員指導來 那個天文有沒有意見來 林益君委員"},{"start":3099.028,"end":3106.229,"text":"針對386案這個縣指部已經有來溝通了這是海軍的統建案採購契約在今年8月26日已經簽約了已經針對兼徵型的無人機規格訂定但是有保密對抗干擾的功能還有具有可設定避障的功能但是功能的要求都已經在合約中辦理交換驗收那我可以再確認一下就是說你們有預定什麼時候交換還有什麼時候驗收嗎"},{"start":3130.077,"end":3130.638,"text":"林昭偉對預算的意見"},{"start":3155.074,"end":3160.217,"text":"第387案攻擊無人機飛彈系統委馬榮軍委員關切是否如期貨裝本部簽一次委員辦公室提供完整資料並說明建請同意預算照列 坑君委員指導"},{"start":3174.305,"end":3196.306,"text":"同意照列我們387同意照列再來處理388案新型步槍林毅君委員提案第388案新型步槍為林毅君委員關切雷射模組性能本部簽一字委員辦公室提供完整資料並說明建議同意凍結一百萬根據委員指導來林毅君委員"},{"start":3197.312,"end":3197.652,"text":"大軍你做了什麼事情"},{"start":3231.155,"end":3232.319,"text":"他本來頭髮很多的"},{"start":3236.237,"end":3261.429,"text":"知通電軍就位好 我們來處理知通電軍的預算389案來請說明委員好 第389案是行政事務一般事務費為徐曉欣委員針對前監察官參與吸金案應提出改善計畫的一個提案指導本部也提交這個說明資料及稱譽作為懇請同意明語刪減及凍結恭請委員指導"},{"start":3266.144,"end":3272.173,"text":"是389還是先幫他改啦來預算書 那個美希慢慢來"},{"start":3284.118,"end":3303.688,"text":"這個部分呢是當時這個資通電軍的督察室的校監察參謀官那他有涉嫌違反銀行法的部分所以我們希望能夠提出這個檢討改善的計畫那原本我的劣勢20%那我想也不需要這麼高那我就凍結50萬可以嗎"},{"start":3307.27,"end":3307.37,"text":"再來第390案"},{"start":3336.847,"end":3351.572,"text":"第三百九十案為馬文君委員針對設施秀商維護及管理的一個預算編類執行內容及執行的方式要呈付說明本案已經向委員辦公室實施說明進行同意免許刪減凍結金額依委員的提案為五百萬並向委員會提出書面報告後是個動之感謝委員馬委員"},{"start":3358.154,"end":3364.199,"text":"主要是我們看到雖然它經費增加不過它大部分當然要改善一些設施不過很多都是電力設施現在因為我們所有的電費不斷的攀升所以我們也希望說在這個部分可以尊潔使用然後因為冷氣要換掉285台如果它當然老舊是有必要那是不是就是在需求上就是剛剛的原則另外就是說它在"},{"start":3388.658,"end":3410.057,"text":"所有營區都要做電力檢測這是有特別想要做什麼嗎也希望把它一併把它的需求說明清楚你們那個說明以外我印象馬委員在我印象是巡大之後提到我們要裝冷氣還要花一筆錢叫什麼設計費什麼的那個部分你們真的要研究一下能夠幫國家省錢就省錢因為一般我們在裝冷氣"},{"start":3411.738,"end":3425.944,"text":"他賺這筆錢他就要幫忙做這個東西那是不是當然依照法規都要有PCM都要有這個東西但是因為你們是購置冷氣這筆錢有沒有其他更有效的做法一方面把它寫在那個報告裡面好不好然後那個馬委員這個是凍結500嗎你答應500喔"},{"start":3437.503,"end":3441.885,"text":"三百九十一案凍結五百萬書面報告後這要不要經同意"},{"start":3463.852,"end":3478.582,"text":"三百九十一案請說明三百九十一案為馬文清委員針對配合行政院設置太陽光墊的部分要做一個陳述說明這本案已向委員幫製作說明建請同意免允三件及凍結同意照列"},{"start":3481.844,"end":3508.494,"text":"391同意照列另外黃仁委員雖然沒有到場他有提出來我覺得我們各位同事原則上我們在委員會我們盡量讓每個人意見表達然後盡量尊重每個委員的立場所以在可以的方式下本席會盡量涵蓋最多的人黃仁委員他把他的預算提案改組決議那因為他不在場我們通常是不處理各位委員我把他改組決議有沒有意見"},{"start":3509.815,"end":3513.299,"text":"沒有意見的話我們把它改組決議392、414我們記一下黃連委員的392案、414案、454案、462案、466案、467案他在查什麼意思"},{"start":3532.742,"end":3534.384,"text":"以上這些案子預算同意照列改組決議"},{"start":3548.866,"end":3552.188,"text":"第三九二案及第三九三案並案分別為黃仁委員及馬文君委員針對資訊服務費的預算增列需求及執行方式陳復說明"},{"start":3574.298,"end":3580.24,"text":"本案已分向委員（辦公室都實施說明（進行同意改列為主決議（恭喜委員指導"},{"start":3591.923,"end":3596.446,"text":"各單位不要無限上綱的買因為國軍整體應該是由全職單位下去綠定他的資安軟體他的金額範圍因為有一些軟體其實非常高然後有些也很普通可是你比較重要的單位反而沒有那麼多錢可以買到比較好的"},{"start":3613.214,"end":3613.354,"text":"．三天一次會議"},{"start":3633.621,"end":3637.926,"text":"我們現在希望說有些像現在自通電軍他有些授權從兩年變成一年等於說廠商說了算所以我們現在有很多大概在資安的部分會有一些亂象那像這樣的資安軟體的費用從114年他會增加1800萬"},{"start":3652.441,"end":3653.141,"text":"政程﹖"},{"start":3675.151,"end":3697.636,"text":"提案改組決議預算同意照列但是支通電軍應該是我們專業軍種那對於相關的資訊不管攻守之間可能你們需要的等級我們不反對你們用更好的裝備更好的軟體但是請妥善的完整規劃那軍方要用的跟速發部的治安署要用的"},{"start":3697.756,"end":3711.288,"text":"394、395、395"},{"start":3711.806,"end":3740.389,"text":"不予處理那394的部分是馬文君委員提案請說明第394跟395的部分的併案分別為馬文君委員及黃榮委員針對軍事單位裝備零附件的購置及保修的預算增列的部分的陳述說明那本案也向委員辦公室做說明建議同意免許刪減那下修併案為凍結一千萬並向委員辦公室提出這個說明資料後是個動之懇請委員支持"},{"start":3743.752,"end":3756.925,"text":"請說謝謝主席這個部分其實在其他的軍種大概也是一樣的現在我們各軍種的戰鬥各裝它裡面的項目非常多舉例說比如說像雨衣還有水囊、太陽眼鏡還有什麼帽子是穿的下個案"},{"start":3763.371,"end":3763.811,"text":"請稍等一下"},{"start":3791.976,"end":3802.963,"text":"現在這個比較主要的原因是因為我們現在有些戰鬥客裝他是讓我們的義務役可以帶回去對不對是嗎戰鬥客裝沒有吧所以你這個後勤的可以給帶回這個你們醫療包有讓他們帶回去嗎好像也沒有喔都要繳回喔"},{"start":3819.858,"end":3819.898,"text":"主席"},{"start":3839.161,"end":3850.994,"text":"長輩役的因為你義務役其實他來的時間並不長他使用的那個也不是那麼頻繁可是反而我們長輩役用的都是舊的這個部分我們希望可以做一個調整或者應該要去怎麼樣做一個規劃"},{"start":3854.538,"end":3875.756,"text":"戰鬥各裝有效期的防彈背心幾年有效防彈頭盔幾年有效所以常備役因為待的役期他時間比較長4年4年再10年的所以他的裝備會到效期前才會更換這是一個那義務役進來我們以前我不知道現在義務役都用新的我們以前義務役進來套的衣服上面都還有洞"},{"start":3878.198,"end":3880.179,"text":"請注意我一定要強調一件事情裝備是用來用的"},{"start":3896.225,"end":3916.124,"text":"裝備用來有刮痕有沾土那是光榮的標誌我們後勤單位常常要求職業軍人退役繳回的時候繳的要跟新的一樣那個環扣要擦得ㄅㄧㄤˋ亮齁這個不對啦好不好我們希望在部長的領導下這一個文化建立起來就是裝備是鼓勵國軍弟兄用的"},{"start":3916.804,"end":3918.846,"text":"三百九十四案三百九十六案請說明"},{"start":3938.494,"end":3952.81,"text":"第三百九十六萬為馬文君委員針對後勤及補給資源的預算陣列需求及編列方式的陳付說明本案也向委員辦公室實施說明進行同意免許刪減凍結下修為五十萬並向委員會提出書面報告後時可動之恳請委員支持提案委員"},{"start":3958.876,"end":3967.585,"text":"這個部分有做過說明我們希望他在吸行裝備的使用上面因為有一些價格有調整那同意凍結50萬好396案同意凍結50萬書面報告後使得凍資來397、398請說明第397及第398案併案那分別為徐曉星委員針對遙控無人機的"},{"start":3982.339,"end":3994.193,"text":"UTS防禦系統及馬居委員有關於裝備延誤部分的陳副說明本案已分向委員、辦公室提交書面資料及說明建議同意銷修凍結兩千萬我們這個有一個邏輯10%"},{"start":3998.778,"end":4018.089,"text":"這個我反正同意照列所以就看毛委員這一個部分他有比較重要的鏡頭裝備根本沒有到所以他到底會後續會怎麼樣還不曉得所以我們同意下修不過就是兩千萬兩千萬一一一千二"},{"start":4022.455,"end":4024.256,"text":"三百九十七案、三百九十八案並案處理以三百九十八案為主提案並案凍結預算額度的10%"},{"start":4040.303,"end":4060.567,"text":"書面報告經同意後（使得動資來399案請說明第399案委員馬文基委員（針對兼徵型無人機114年的交貨進度是否能達成（包含後續的整理後期部分的陳腐說明本案也向委員辦公室實施說明進行同意免允刪減下修為凍結1000萬並向委員會提出書面報告後（是可動資公請委員指導來提案委員請說好"},{"start":4068.917,"end":4097.143,"text":"第三百九十九案凍結一千萬元書面報告經同意後實的凍支再來第四百案第四百案為馬文俊委員針對第三代陸續系統114年是否能夠如期的完成手套的裝備接裝以及中科院裝備完全整個測試部分本案也向委員辦公室說明建議同意下修為凍結一億元並向委員辦公室提出書面報告後實的凍支恳請委員支持"},{"start":4102.062,"end":4124.358,"text":"這個部分從109年到116年全軍總共要78億光是治安跟保密器治安監控跟保密器是中科院執行的中科的保密器是明年要交我們看到現在提到的像我們陸區系統預計"},{"start":4127.04,"end":4147.022,"text":"明年要交50套嘛第一批他大概有往後一點是不是他到底能不能相容我們也不曉得因為他等於要跟誰相容就是這個我們已經跟美方也開過PNR所以到時候這個是中科越產裝備也會跟美方來做一個系統性能測試跟整個測試"},{"start":4151.851,"end":4166.255,"text":"中央政府的資安次系統其實是資安對接的東西而且我們像有些載具是翻修的就是說只要他可以做到這樣子最重要還是要能夠相容他主要才能夠發揮目標是對接你如果不相容的話就變開玩笑所以相容是基本過關門檻相容之後還有其他規範因為美方在前一批的"},{"start":4180.1,"end":4180.621,"text":"理事長有要說明嗎"},{"start":4186.641,"end":4211.46,"text":"涉及機密就不用說了啦沒有就是所有的PMR我們都有參與那有關對接的部分也都把規格兩邊有看好這個Compatible沒有問題啦OK好這個是我看一下哈400案凍結1億書面報告經同意後使得凍支來現在處理401到402案那402案提案人不在不予處理請針對401案說明"},{"start":4214.282,"end":4237.054,"text":"第400案為馬文勛委員針對環島第2路由及通知系統的這個微波建置案那我都常常設計等相關的一個監照等向了陳副說明那本案也向委員會實施說明那建議同意下修為凍結1000萬並向委員會提出說明報告後是個凍值1000萬是將近六分之一超過六分之一"},{"start":4238.495,"end":4254.233,"text":"您們是溝通過的嗎?溝通過我尊重我的意思是說你們還是要注意到執行上預算的這個部分我把為什麼為什麼我們其實他凍結的你是路由器的建立嘛還有那個微波系統嘛對"},{"start":4255.848,"end":4259.289,"text":"其實它的重要性過去比如說像之前軍中負責哪一部分比較機敏的部分他大概都只知道自己負責的點可是我們這一次是要把它委外你委外等於說那個廠商會知道我們所有全貿你每一個點都他們知道你要怎麼樣去防堵說這個這麼機敏的這個部分我們環島的光纖他所有的我們的"},{"start":4287.475,"end":4298.059,"text":"請傳（包括位置、地點（我們所有的骨幹的節點（其實可能會不會造成影響（這是一個好問題（那不是錢的（那個自動電軍（你們這個若是偽商建制的話（對於我們所有布置的點（有時候我們軍方連高階降臨都不知道（就布置的點（然後他傳遞的方式（"},{"start":4311.943,"end":4317.738,"text":"然後它的線路有時候不用打點我把線路挖掉就好了線路的買色你們怎麼做到保防"},{"start":4318.482,"end":4347.139,"text":"你們怎麼處理跟委員報告這部分包含在開票前我們針對這個所有投標廠商資格因為我們限定只有國內的廠商那包含到要簽字要簽訂這個保密的特別保密條款的相關保密切結包含他離職後的部分讓我們有成立專案的辦公室在他的背景溯源你們說到第幾層一直到他的這個下游的廠商都包含在裡面他的最終受益人就他的古今成分的最終受益人是是是"},{"start":4348.376,"end":4367.371,"text":"因為這個部分我們也不曉得說你用簽保密協定或者說他最後下游是不是可以很有效的去掌控因為他真的牽涉到我們所有全貌因為他廠商等於知道不管是規格流量地點全部都是在他掌握之中我們自己都還不知道軍中任何不管包括可能最高我們的部長或其他的其實都還不知道我們從過去到現在大概都只知道自己的點我旁邊有什麼這樣而已這個"},{"start":4378.499,"end":4393.666,"text":"給你們一個建議有時候商業界像沈波亮委員對這方面應該也是行家就是說商業界在處理這種我避免外部out-sourcing掌握到我的全貌我會把它拆成好幾塊我不要一包處理全部"},{"start":4394.884,"end":4394.904,"text":"委員長"},{"start":4411.767,"end":4411.887,"text":"陳永康委員"},{"start":4439.684,"end":4440.284,"text":"第403案為馬文俊委員針對展覽公務車的車輛的籌補與規劃不同部分"},{"start":4464.771,"end":4483.498,"text":"的陳復說明本案迎向委員辦公室做說明進行同意免於凍結懇請委員支持同意照列403案同意照列來404案請說明換偵探局來請換偵探局偵探局是被誰一直誇獎被徐委員誇獎對不對徐委員不來維護一下趕快"},{"start":4493.062,"end":4510.592,"text":"政戰局長最近腰受傷所以他是帶傷來協商那表現有所差池請大家多受包涵他帶著傷他身上還包著好我們現在來404404案馬文俊委員提案來請說明"},{"start":4513.933,"end":4516.536,"text":"徵案局報告第404案為馬文君委員針對國軍英雄館落日條款提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意下修為凍結500萬並向委員會提出書面報告經同意後時的凍支"},{"start":4534.96,"end":4554.94,"text":"這個部分同意下修我們希望馬委員這筆經費是處理英雄館的事情嗎這筆預算是嗎還是處理基層的業務費這個是我們的行政事務費我是跟馬委員討論一下當然我尊重你們協商的過程因為這筆預算是基層各單位的行政費"},{"start":4556.101,"end":4571.168,"text":"那剛才你講的那個我也贊成所以是不是我們不要去動到那個基層單位的費用把你要的東西看綁把它綁在另外哪一筆預算上這個是基層的行政費倒不是那個國軍英雄館的事情你想一下因為他只是提出作為啦我覺得他提出作為那我們還是凍結啦你把那個包括"},{"start":4585.39,"end":4590.033,"text":"國軍英雄館是一個因為現在要延五年了嘛可是像教師會館或警官會館其實他們都還是有自己對於自己的身份去特別照顧的一個方向如果說我們國軍英雄館至少如果你沒有辦法去維護這個那是不是有什麼所有軍人是可以有這樣的福利照顧其實都應該一併把它做出來這可能也在業務向下啦我希望可以做出一個"},{"start":4613.59,"end":4613.75,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4629.927,"end":4640.596,"text":"然後你大概只有軍人本身去他可以受到一些優惠可是軍眷就沒有比如孩子或老婆或者先生大概就沒有比如說像局長如果你去有可是你的家人其實也要同時當你忙的時候他們也沒有辦法照顧到這是我們當時應該要照顧的一個原因所以這個部分如果把這個做出一個書面就好了啦好不好這個凍結數到25%你們OK齁"},{"start":4657.409,"end":4658.489,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說"},{"start":4685.134,"end":4685.714,"text":"中央政府總預算案"},{"start":4703.869,"end":4704.249,"text":"4404案同意凍結200萬書面報告後始的凍支"},{"start":4734.024,"end":4737.746,"text":"接下來是405到415案來請說明是針對405到415等11案感謝馬文君委員等7位委員針對政戰綜合作業費預算的相關指導報告如下恭請委員指導"},{"start":4752.532,"end":4764.807,"text":"第405案為馬文君委員針對自殺防制工作獎金預算編列的一個提案感謝委員的指導本案已經向委員說明現請同意預算照列"},{"start":4772.854,"end":4792.829,"text":"我這個案子我沒問題啦但我希望還是能夠有一個主決議第一個就是因為現在國防部的不實消息不實消息越來越多啦所以我還是希望就是至少能夠針對國防部他們在回應這些外界的假消息的時候能夠有一個機制啦希望還是有一個主決議來 這個我來併案處理啦你們同意凍結400嗎我知道 我現在問你們的預算數"},{"start":4802.97,"end":4826.464,"text":"你們是大家同意照列還是同意凍結一定數額?就是405到415對是預算數的溝通是怎麼樣?412因為個案有個案的對有關預算的部分有沒有?有是凍結多少?100我有3喔412有3因為個案"},{"start":4830.612,"end":4831.093,"text":"405案建議預算照列"},{"start":4847.21,"end":4850.971,"text":"馬唯你看一下405案同意照列有問題當場提出再來406案405我講一下因為最近大家而且我們政戰局大概在這個部分也都有著墨甚至也有編預算可是我們希望在這個部分還要特別幫我們軍中的心腹人員特別再講一下因為通常在發生事情的時候他們是第一個被苛責的對象"},{"start":4874.497,"end":4875.998,"text":"國軍的心腹人員其實也非常辛苦他除了自己的本務以外他還要去關心這一些那現在他有很多的因素"},{"start":4890.425,"end":4890.485,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4907.538,"end":4910.439,"text":"大概發生事情就會說新府人員能力不足沒有證照不夠用心我覺得對他們是一個比較大的傷害所以這個部分是不是有其他的方式來強化可是我們也希望也可以兼顧到我們所有的新府官他們本身他們的立場那在這裡包括他們也有自己的業務跟家庭所以以"},{"start":4934.204,"end":4962.052,"text":"以這個部分來說我們希望可以加強好我知道我現在先把預算數確定一下好不好各位有什麼意見可以表達沒有問題第一個405案征戰局共同結果是同意照列是我們先處理預算的處理方式是那個別委員要垂詢什麼我們待會再來發言是好那406案那個徐曉鑫委員是同意照列吧對我們建議改列主決議他有要改主決議嗎是有嗎OK嗎好主決議"},{"start":4964.174,"end":4964.194,"text":"407 案"},{"start":4976.886,"end":4985.49,"text":"407案、409案跟413案分別是王定宇委員、羅美玲委員跟黃仁委員針對新府人員證照具有專業證照人數不高的這個提案感謝委員指導本案依委員的提案辦理建議併案凍結100萬並向委員會提出書面報告後時的凍值這個100萬這個是408"},{"start":5004.97,"end":5006.031,"text":"第407、第409、第407、第409、第413第408"},{"start":5029.981,"end":5030.441,"text":"你這樣就兩百囉"},{"start":5052.507,"end":5058.551,"text":"我剛剛一直問你們預算額度在問這個事情現在併案的100加上個案的100這樣就200了沒錯我綠網我們在一併處理好再來陳冠林委員的411再來沈博洋委員的是第412案為沈博洋委員針對軍事科普闢謠等領域的宣傳策略跟經營媒體政策的提案本案已向委員說明感謝委員指導建請委員同意預算照列"},{"start":5081.201,"end":5109.162,"text":"我沒問題但我還是在講一下就是說還是要注意就是我之前有提過的畢竟很多記者他會看起來好像拿到內部的一些爆料爆料如果是針對內部的改革是很好但有些根本就在寫假消息所以這個部分真的是必須要注意有時候不是陣戰的鍋可能是各軍種他們自己去再接觸記者的時候但這個現象現在變得越來越嚴重是趙立民再來陳冠廷委員的部分"},{"start":5113.787,"end":5123.351,"text":"第411案以及第412案分別為陳冠廷委員跟馬文君委員針對全民新世界增加600萬預算編列的一個提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請兩案併案3減200萬元"},{"start":5140.64,"end":5160.751,"text":"每次要再衝那個瀏覽人數的時候因為我們自己的辦公室有很多退役的軍官那他們過去的經驗就是要瘋狂的轉到每一個群組叫大家一定要點要按讚然後要留言那這其實他們只看前面三秒鐘因為他們要按讚留言瀏覽而已就不要衝這種數量但是以他是他不是以"},{"start":5161.391,"end":5186.869,"text":"415 415萬"},{"start":5187.068,"end":5187.328,"text":"馬文君委員羅美林委員"},{"start":5215.085,"end":5223.391,"text":"我提案的部分408同意下修動結束100萬不過這個比較主要的是因為我們現在有要委外找心理醫師那這個部分可能在兩個方向去編的預算一個在征戰局一個在軍醫局一個300多萬一個1900多萬可是在我們有看到我們這個"},{"start":5244.148,"end":5252,"text":"預算就是你可以自己出去看病只要我覺得心情不好就可以去看病對不對那一年可以看6次一次1600塊"},{"start":5255.776,"end":5257.898,"text":"現在衛福部在113年8月開始已經有了15到45歲青壯世代心理健康支持方案他去看心理醫師他一輩子有三次免費"},{"start":5276.132,"end":5279.593,"text":"所以當我們在編這樣的預算其實衛福部已經有免費的部分我們這樣大概也會跟他衝突你可以一年看六次那衛福部現在的政策現在的政策又可以一輩子有三次免費所以我覺得這個預算在可能有一些運用上面是不是應該要有錯開或者你才不會有重置的這樣子的預算的浪費"},{"start":5305.86,"end":5330.548,"text":"另外他編列的方向這個部分我們同意下修讓他們可以提出比較完整的一個方案然後又可以達到他的目的跟效果另外還有一個我跟412跟冠廷委員大概就這個部分我們都各三兩百萬那我們同意大概兩個併三兩百萬主要是併三兩百"},{"start":5335.269,"end":5336.571,"text":"主要是因為我們看到這個全面新世界他當他被統三以後他本來應該要自播15集可是變成12集然後其他的一些"},{"start":5351.707,"end":5351.807,"text":"現委員指導"},{"start":5371.893,"end":5392.479,"text":"我的409案是跟王定宇召委的407案其實是一樣的是針對於國軍心腹人員不足的這問題會要如何改善我希望這部分能提出更加詳細的書面說明再來還有人力心腹人員人力的招聘要如何提出誘因這部分也希望我們政戰局能夠提出說明"},{"start":5392.839,"end":5392.939,"text":"405案同意遭列"},{"start":5414.545,"end":5422.549,"text":"406案改組決議407案王定宇部分凍結50萬書面報告後使得凍資408案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍資409案羅美玲委員部分凍結50萬書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":5440.824,"end":5455.718,"text":"410案沈伯陽委員的部分我看我把100萬放在這裡凍結100萬雖然他同意招列那你們盡量要在同一個案子遊說到一樣的結論否則委員之間會有不同的處理這個凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":5459.361,"end":5471.189,"text":"411案簡列100萬科目自行調整412案簡列100萬科目自行調整413案不予處理414案改組決議415案改組決議好沒有問題嗎好我們以上這一批案子這樣處理再來416案那個軍備局來換局謝謝委員容我先說416案照列通過"},{"start":5490.3,"end":5494.657,"text":"軍備局還是要坐下來 照列通過416案同意照列"},{"start":5498.1,"end":5519.571,"text":"好再來請就417案那個林益君召委的提案請說明417417案為林益君委員對於規格建設中心他服了那昨天也充分的跟委員的表達我們會確保我們整個的品質都無虞於見請下修為凍結50萬並向委員會提出報告後使得動之林召委OK嗎"},{"start":5520.68,"end":5548.611,"text":"其實這最主要是真的是因為還是為了保護國軍的安全所以讓他們能夠更安心的服兵役所以那個TAF的話因為是之前有來講有來說明但是這個還是在進行中但是到現在還是要到明年對不對大概在第三季之前我們亮場交軍之前全部整個大湖兵會把它做完所以還是要到明年因為有些機器是要從國外進口的機器現在目前正在執行之中是"},{"start":5549.671,"end":5553.894,"text":"418案委員馬文君委員針對國防科技貢獻獎預算編列不足感謝委員的指導本案已向委員說明同意改類組決議請委員指代馬委員"},{"start":5577.171,"end":5596.54,"text":"謝謝這個案子因為我們有編了這個預算那每年是300萬去年100萬今年是0就是沒有人0最重要的去年是中科院天工的主持人那今年從缺因為他主要是國防科技貢獻獎"},{"start":5598.959,"end":5607.247,"text":"很重要的因素是國防科技發展其實並不那麼容易所以我們看到我們雖然想要有這樣的一個獎項然後也有這樣的獎金它利益很好可是為什麼沒有個人或團體來參與或者也沒有人獲獎這個部分可能要去檢視一下所以同意改組決議"},{"start":5620.579,"end":5632.573,"text":"這一個418案改組決議這個獎你們要注意一件事情我們軍工業的研發有時候一顆沖壓引擎要20年你如果獎勵錯人比沒有獎還慘"},{"start":5636.157,"end":5656.228,"text":"他有初期的、中段的有小組的總工程師有大組的什麼的當你發的獎項獎勵錯人或者受獎人名實不符你比不給獎還慘你會打擊士氣所以這個獎目前沒有人領表示你們表示你們沒有犯錯但我一定要提醒設置獎項是為了鼓勵士氣"},{"start":5661.331,"end":5679.467,"text":"但是軍工業很複雜你一個系統完成他牽涉到很多人每個人都覺得自己很有貢獻哪怕你用外部委員覺得陳永康貢獻比較大另外旁邊兩個也覺得我也很有貢獻所以這個給獎真的要小心因為部隊是一個士氣的單位如果續講"},{"start":5681.289,"end":5681.689,"text":"419案為馬文金委員針對房屋"},{"start":5709.039,"end":5738.499,"text":"建築養護會應加強編列明細說明感謝馬委員的指導本案也向委員說明建請同意預算照例另外420到425案為林郁君委員、王定宇委員、黃仁委員、馬文君委員及徐曉金委員共同關切的民航民雄航太無人機產業園區開發建設計劃招商營運及經費分攤等情感謝各位委員的指導針對委員關鍵事項已經向委員口頭說明或書面說明"},{"start":5740.441,"end":5760.702,"text":"現請第420至425案並案我們來凍結整個預算的10%讓中科院可以執行這屬於國家的重大建設部分並由中科院完成了上個會期已經有指導的完成了專案報告後經委員會同意後使得凍支恭請委員指導來先請林益君委員接下來再來黃元委員來請"},{"start":5765.632,"end":5791.17,"text":"針對420這個案子其實我一直覺得很奇怪因為他現在114年到117年編了68億5900預算然後捐助給行政法人中科會中科院但是這個就我了解這個產業園區的土地是這種土地管理產權管理是政府的但是招商卻是經濟部和那個嘉義縣政府來負責然後所有的收入居然都沒有入國庫全部"},{"start":5792.271,"end":5805.607,"text":"給中科院來管理然後如果政府用公務預算出錢來給中科院然後結果中科院又自己成立所謂的專案基金自行管理那這樣是不是感覺很像透過中科院來施設基金來規避國會的監督呢所以而且現在卻沒有相關的草案和預算來管理監督的方法"},{"start":5813.215,"end":5825.266,"text":"所以我覺得這一個案子為了避免公務預算捐助的預算遭到濫用導致我們立委都沒有辦法順利的監督所以我還是堅持希望這個可以凍結這個預算50%這個數我們討論一下啦但中科院不會不能監督你看他院長都坐在這裡所以他是公法人我們先請黃榮委員待會再一併說明來好"},{"start":5839.233,"end":5857.867,"text":"針對這個422民雄無人機的產業區的一個管理問題外還有未來產房的歸屬以及由金方編列預算供民間產房發展使用是否合理的問題此外據經備局說明民雄無人機的產業區"},{"start":5861.53,"end":5881.021,"text":"從二無戰爭的經驗等無人機的戰時消耗數量龐大所以這個問題來我們根本無法有任何防衛的可能性所以這個是有些檢討的地方所以我們冰凍10%以上"},{"start":5884.083,"end":5884.363,"text":"陳冠廷委員"},{"start":5903.337,"end":5903.497,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5920.306,"end":5923.047,"text":"第二部分,黃委員跟你分享,現在正是因為烏俄戰爭的關係,我們知道它消耗的量是很大的"},{"start":5942.136,"end":5961.688,"text":"所以有航太員去做一個生產的重鎮那我們才有辦法去生產足夠的這一個無人機來去做全國的防務所以我們認為說由中科院特別是他們有分西邊跟東邊一部分是由民用的一部分是以中科院主導的還有風洞還有算力中心也就是說這個地方一建起來的話"},{"start":5962.188,"end":5990.927,"text":"那我們很多的這個科研人員可以進駐之外生產人員也可以進駐那商業也可以因此而發展那這個外盛效應其實不是只有民雄而已往北可以到雲林特別是跟雲林會比較近一些就是雲家地區這是非常重要的那雲家地區就也不是只有我們民主進步黨而已嘛就是我們剛講雲家國民黨跟民進黨都有所以他們的就業很多人現在已經在雲林他們未來是可以來到我們嘉峪去做這樣子的就業機會這是第二部分"},{"start":5991.948,"end":5997.675,"text":"中科院是最好監督的就是國家的重要單位所以三不五時我們就可以叫過來監督我想院長也是會很配合的來配合監督"},{"start":6011.03,"end":6025.166,"text":"所以還是在懇請各位同仁如果可以給我們民雄航太園區一個機會的話能夠來支持我待會請那個業管單位說明但是其實我說明一下像我們的科學園區的開闢有時候會用科技部或者國科會的錢"},{"start":6026.467,"end":6053.957,"text":"經濟部一部分然後地方政府再出一部分然後它開闢之後像有的工業區交給地方政府工業局去管有的是交給我們那個國科會去管叫科學園區有的交給經濟部去管所以這個是常態就是說我們要開闢一個產業園區不管它是在南投是在台北在那裡產業園區開闢其實是政府群策群力有時候土地呢有鐵道局的地有地方政府的地有鄉公所的地那大家都拿出來"},{"start":6054.577,"end":6081.967,"text":"然後預算大家組合之後由公法人來開闢開闢之後會選擇一個管理機關所以像我們台南南科管理機關就是南科管理局直屬國科會但是另外一個同樣模式開闢的沙倫智慧科學城它的管理機關現在是定在台南市政府的經發局它模式差不多所以這個可能讓林玉君召委瞭解一下那我們請要中科院還是軍備局"},{"start":6085.18,"end":6085.421,"text":"針對這個部分因為其實"},{"start":6095.273,"end":6107.403,"text":"首先我們全國的一些科學園區不管什麼樣的園區其實通常有些政府部門大概會投入大量的資金可是一定也結合廠商還有所有民間的這些相關的資源我們看到的現在這一個民雄的這個無人機園區它希望還是航太啦就是說它在這個無人機的產業發展我們"},{"start":6121.96,"end":6139.947,"text":"全力支持無人機在我們國家作為重要產業發展可是你的做法要是對的首先因為我們剛剛講所有科學園區是他讓我們的科技發展這個大家都是有目共睹那無人機要發展沒有理由說"},{"start":6141.368,"end":6152.372,"text":"土地也是國家出的因為包括第一個階段它分東西像嘛那有一部分是中科院其實原來就已經取得那另外還有就是從那個國科國發國發會的建設基金其實有撥錢"},{"start":6163.817,"end":6187.415,"text":"我們原來中科院在取得這塊土地的時候很重要的因素是為了要讓我們的飛彈需要有比較大型的風洞的一個需求要建置在那裡如果為了這樣子的園區開發而犧牲掉我們最重要的一個核心的價值這是不對的這是第一點第二個你如果說要開發因為"},{"start":6189.477,"end":6214.877,"text":"中科院雖然是個公法人可是其實它本身最重要存在的目的是為了國家的國防的發展還有包括你的科研因為你所有的來源也大部分是國家提供的這樣的相對資金而且你主要的任務是飛彈像我們最強的飛彈啊武器這一類的所以你如果"},{"start":6216.26,"end":6217.101,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":6234.582,"end":6243.724,"text":"然後再去找一個民間的廠商反正你就委外我不知道你要委給誰因為現在也說不清楚那就這樣的看法因為中科院本來就不是做這個的做這個最強的應該是經濟部如果我們要開發這樣的園區經濟部過去在所有的科技園區都做得那麼成功就應該要交給他你可以把土地也交給他讓他去做這樣子的一個整體開發我覺得他的成功力也會更強那"},{"start":6262.788,"end":6262.908,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6293.008,"end":6293.228,"text":"中央政策委員會議"},{"start":6314.241,"end":6314.281,"text":"主席"},{"start":6334.013,"end":6337.335,"text":"支持這個產業發展的同時也希望他用對的方向還有找對的政府部門來共同去推動還有讓他去可能有更大的成功的機會這是我們這次提案的一個主要的一個目的"},{"start":6351.805,"end":6366.437,"text":"謝謝馬委員待會我在預算處理的時候會把這些點放進去來曲曉欣委員那我在424案跟425案那我想我是並案處理因為也有其他的委員這個廖先祥委員也關心這件事情"},{"start":6366.977,"end":6378.62,"text":"那呢是這樣子的就是說我們這個案子的自償率只有38.35%而且呢後續營業的收益是會列在中科院這邊那呢在112年的這個騰餘數那奢餘數他是有64億5645萬8千元那113年及114年的這個奢餘那都是有34億"},{"start":6394.005,"end":6394.766,"text":"中科院並同分擔園區經費的建議"},{"start":6422.288,"end":6438.696,"text":"如果說我們同樣是一個中央單位連主計總署都已經發言了那我覺得應該要參考財政部跟主計總署的說法而不是我們一意孤行那這就是我提出的原因那在這裡的話我個人的提案的部分的建議簡列數是600萬然後凍結數是25萬"},{"start":6445.546,"end":6451.481,"text":"我們是待會一併處理各位都表達完畢我們請中科院說明"},{"start":6454.925,"end":6478.543,"text":"針對說各位委員的那個疑問齁我總會議這邊逐項的做說明第一個就是我們這幾個月做了很多的廠商意願調查不只只有無人機業我們發現廠商的反應非常的熱烈都很迫切期待這個園區的設置期待一個產業聚落的生成這包含無人機業包含通訊業包含光電、籌載業還有發動機還有電池的廠商都願意進駐"},{"start":6483.526,"end":6507.683,"text":"產業聚落沒有形成的話我們國家的中小企業從以前的加工出口區到科學園區他是沒有辦法形成一個有競爭力的產業這個是做第一點報告第二個為什麼會落在中科院身上其實當時有經過在行政院我們有經過一番討論但是事實上請各位委員我們回頭仔細想一下目前在國內製造無人機"},{"start":6510.309,"end":6521.798,"text":"從R&D然後到OEM整個產線的鋪排只有中科院有這樣的實際的能力實際的績效第三個我們剛剛講到經費的問題"},{"start":6524.58,"end":6546.269,"text":"並不是整個全部園區的經費當時在行政院有爭議過所以把它分成東西側雖然整個54公頃多的土地都是屬於中科院的但是在東側的部分由中科院使用的部分是由中科院自行去投資的那我們投資的部分也不是只有給中科院使用還有包含要給園區廠商使用的風洞"},{"start":6546.949,"end":6574.797,"text":"要給原區廠商的模擬和算力中心要給原區廠商未來的測試空域尤其是我們無人機的測試空域是現在國內無人機業界最渴望也最迫切的我們要發展一個無人機產業結果你沒有它專用的測試空域其實那個政策就是比較空洞的所以我們會優先在建置的同時去把無人機的測試空域和場域去把它建置好"},{"start":6575.797,"end":6596.866,"text":"另外就是講到就是蓋廠房的問題其實我們剛好舉個例子委員不好意思就像環球晶他去美國幹廠房也是拿到美國政府的補助事實上現在走的就國際上比較流行的已經不是對對現在我們也我們蓋的廠房也只是基本廠房"},{"start":6598.431,"end":6617.001,"text":"廠商進駐以後他必須依照每個廠商的需求要再去投資我們只是蓋基本我們只是蓋基本廠房而已然後警報聲就告訴你差不多了我有問題想要問我想詢問的問題我們把它詢問我待會同意處理"},{"start":6622.483,"end":6642.334,"text":"因為我的問題跟剛剛大家講的比較不一樣就是自償率的問題那還有這個中科院因為近年的收支營運都是有剩餘的嘛那所以我剛剛的問題是說其實你113跟114年度的本期剩餘是34億然後跟55億那就是財政部跟主計總書他就覺得說你們這個後續的營運會變成中科院的收入"},{"start":6646.176,"end":6668.197,"text":"是不是說這裡應該要有跟國防部這邊其他的單位來去分攤這個興建的經費我是對這件事情比較有意見那其他你要廠房怎麼蓋我是沒有可不可以回答一下這個部分我們讓林郁君委員跟馬文君委員發言完然後再一併再完整回答來林郁君委員"},{"start":6668.923,"end":6692.309,"text":"其實我比較大的質疑是說這是由誰主管而且還有說未來的預算該如何被監督而且現在沒有任何的草案然後也沒有那些預算管理的監督的辦法我最主要的話是質疑這一點那個待會一併回答來馬文君委員然後再來是王逸川委員就這個部分我就說其實我們支持他這個無人機產業發展剛剛院長提到"},{"start":6695.834,"end":6712.031,"text":"中和醫院,像如果說因為你在這樣的能量是最強所以這個園區就由中和醫院來主導這樣應該是有點本末倒置當時中和醫院為什麼可以做這麼多是因為政府給的資源"},{"start":6713.553,"end":6714.754,"text":"（中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（"},{"start":6743.653,"end":6747.474,"text":"包括是整體的開發他整體的發展其實他讓專業的去做應該是最好的啦你廠房剛剛你說環球金是因為如果美國政府他重視包括你台積電去他也會補助他是個別的廠商我們現在說的是你幫所有的廠商蓋廠房這是不對的方向"},{"start":6763.038,"end":6785.873,"text":"你如果要做你廠商自己來投資啊我們所有的科學園區他還是廠商自己符合自己的需求你要做電池的你要做引擎的你要做其他機翼的你要做他載台或其他的他會是一樣的嗎所以怎麼會是我們幫他量身定做未來這些公司或者這些廠商就必須要聽命於這個我們委託的這個對象"},{"start":6790.976,"end":6811.642,"text":"這樣對我們未來的產業發展可能才是會造成比較大的影響這個本來我是提議全三的那冠廷委員其實有特別提到我們也認同這個產業我們希望可以支持發展可是就這個部分應該要怎麼樣找到一個比較適宜的方向去推動"},{"start":6812.702,"end":6828.854,"text":"中科院如果有花那麼多的精神去個別的廠商不管你是哪一類型的無人機廠商還包括電池業還包括其他的你有這麼多的精神去跟廠商去談去洽談你就會喪失掉你很多應該專精在你原來應該要開發的這些"},{"start":6831.676,"end":6832.116,"text":"所以這個部分我只是對這個部分"},{"start":6859.486,"end":6860.247,"text":"這一個案子對嘉義縣"},{"start":6874.903,"end":6899.663,"text":"這個影響很大那無人機現在除了在太保的有一個研發的地方可是那個大概就是一個修論廠商集合在那裡幾個辦公室那嘉義縣這幾年因為這個無人機它的整個產業就從這個農業縣變成農工大縣想要做一個轉型所以民雄當地的居民包括嘉義縣政府都非常歡迎這個園區的進駐"},{"start":6901.205,"end":6904.121,"text":"那既然這個中科院要來承擔這件事情"},{"start":6905.736,"end":6919.822,"text":"臺灣現在在做這個無人機不管是就是說所有的技術就是中科院最會做你現在再去叫經濟部則經濟部就再找中科院說你到底是要做什麼因為中科院對這個無人機有他們的期待就有他們對相關這個廠房設備的這一個規劃所以由中科院來做這個合理就是告訴我們這個廠房可能中科院說不清楚你蓋的是標準廠房你蓋的你廠商的設備怎麼自己買的"},{"start":6935.149,"end":6938.07,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（不含國家安全局部分．三天一次會議"},{"start":6958.4,"end":6964.402,"text":"但是產業園區開發的經驗要去清告科學園區尤其是經驗部分就是說收入、自償率這可能應該不在行這部分大家來請經濟部、產業科學園區幫你協助一下以上請來請中科院長摘要說明"},{"start":6983.328,"end":7003.695,"text":"第1個針對原區未來收入部分我直接引用今年8月23號行政院合附的文令上針對未來原區收入的部分行政院有很嚴格的規定我原文照念未來原區完工營運後資維護費用以及擴建或產能擴增等成本支出均應以原區收益之應為原則並另設管理報表記錄原區收支"},{"start":7009.817,"end":7030.446,"text":"國家中山科學研究院本院收支有所區隔所以未來的整個營運管理的錢跟中科院的營運收入是完全區隔的他會有一個獨立報表然後給誰看行政院才主計單位要看所以他有一個監督鏈是第二個部分就是我這邊要再表達一下就是"},{"start":7031.368,"end":7057.823,"text":"中科院未來在民雄園區扮演的角色我們不是在那邊生產我們不會做任何生產的角色我們是研究、發展尤其是協助、技術服務我們要定我們國家無人機的規格現在全世界無人機並沒有標準規格我們也跟某些學術單位在合作我們要定我們自己無人機的規格我們先把規格定出來以後"},{"start":7058.743,"end":7059.463,"text":"這是我們的期待,謝謝"},{"start":7087.308,"end":7089.771,"text":"馬文君委員、徐曉新委員、陳冠廷委員分別發言"},{"start":7103.601,"end":7105.542,"text":"首先我要說的是中科院歷年以來可能至少超過20年我們國家提供很多的科研經費在無人機上面包括我們現在騰雲他到現在我第一次去看騰雲的時候他們就跟我說這個很快可以掛彈"},{"start":7122.208,"end":7129.054,"text":"可是又研發了第二代那時候又研發了第二代那現在騰雲還是沒有被用上這是第一個還有我們的瑞淵還有我們的紅雀還有我們的尖兵還有我們很多很多的關鍵技術其實我們提供至少上百億的預算已經都給中科院了中科院說現在自己是最強大你可以去指導廠商說你應該怎麼做可是事實上我們自己都還沒有做出來而且你還花了很多錢"},{"start":7151.352,"end":7160.58,"text":"這是第一點第二個你中科院如果只是你今天你現在就可以就你的研究或者就你的發展或者技術指導現在沒有這個園區你也在做所以他不是園區的問題無人機的規範如果台灣做出來的規範可以訂定成國際性的標準"},{"start":7171.83,"end":7173.451,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分．"},{"start":7194.384,"end":7196.045,"text":"每一個他應該有的對各司其職你今天自己筆經費到底要有誰出而且講說那個什麼標準廠房廠房本來就應該是自己不然哪一個人可以去獲得這個廠房你這樣不是又有"},{"start":7210.236,"end":7215.039,"text":"有圖利的一個方向嗎你今天如果我我什麼都沒有做過可是我很有心想要在無人機的產業上發展我來這裡取得一塊土地以後我在這裡自己蓋廠房我自己未來成功是我們願意努力投入如果沒有成功那也是這個廠商的問題怎麼會是你蓋了廠房蓋了廠房就是以後的廠商進駐是由你們選擇"},{"start":7237.152,"end":7244.218,"text":"這一個方向其實我覺得這是最大的問題也是我們不管是在凍結最重要的理由我原來是全山的我認為不應該都是由政府出所以剛才還有在說雖然這對自己來說非常重要在民眾可以發展也可以讓更多人有受害的機會這是我們贊成的但今天我們也有來自台北有南島還有其他故鄉台南大家都有"},{"start":7263.533,"end":7265.714,"text":"今天是選擇在嘉義我們認同（不過不是嘉義為他的發展（可以超過我們國家的發展（尤其我們所為主管（也應該是為國家的利益來輸扣（所以這是我們今天編這個議程（這是國家級的橫褲來請我們是不是到陳冠廷委員完了（我們來處理預算書了好不好（來陳冠廷委員"},{"start":7287.283,"end":7306.315,"text":"謝謝同仁的指教我還是在強調就是說因為剛好嘉義的發展跟國家的發展是同時並進因為我們所有的測試園區還有甚至研發園區到這邊未來是因為有西側西側的話可能是由嘉義縣政府來負責招商所以它是有商業的目的跟居民共通的目的"},{"start":7308.336,"end":7325.206,"text":"中科院在行以軍用為導向（西側的部分（未來我們東側的這些可以共享（共享的意思是說（可以來自南投、來自台北（來自世界各地的進駐我們西側之後（都可以用我們東側的東西來繁榮整個雲嘉南（"},{"start":7325.786,"end":7330.308,"text":"．19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19"},{"start":7353.835,"end":7355.097,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管"},{"start":7370.914,"end":7371.254,"text":"陳冠廷委員"},{"start":7401.054,"end":7402.095,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7422.297,"end":7449.031,"text":"歸屬預算還有它的屬性以及中科院的任務有所異議這樣詮釋應該沒有錯誤詮釋了包括林益君早委其實他很關切的是公預算就是要被監督到所以第一個我們凍結數10%我們凍結數10%不好意思不然我本來是要詮釋因為我們希望你在第一階段你把它通盤考良好嘛你後面這麼大"},{"start":7450.546,"end":7451.546,"text":"李俊元你有什麼意見?"},{"start":7478.636,"end":7494.546,"text":"中科院如果有虧損還是政府的捐助而且它長期以來都是研發的單位為什麼它會變成要負責產業園區呢?這個是不是要經濟部去處理呢?所以如果說真的沒有辦法形成共識不然我們就建議保留協商"},{"start":7508.617,"end":7518.197,"text":"就待會的凍結數額提出的書面報告我們必須要看到的是第一個你們的管理經營的方案"},{"start":7519.465,"end":7519.665,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7541.457,"end":7558.755,"text":"基於你們的職責（你們的任務編組中科院是我們台灣少數全球百大軍工業之一他不只是研發他還有製造他還有下訂單的能力其實中科院為什麼你去開發那些無人機業者會跟著他去因為中科院可以技術移轉中科院可以下訂單大家這裡要對你去"},{"start":7561.898,"end":7585.9,"text":"所以我的意思是說中科院的書面報告向本會要提出第一個事情是經營模式管理模式你們開放思考如果由經濟部來處理比較好或者由國科會處理比較好你們也具體提出本委員會可以當你們的後盾要求行政院來做思考處理但是我們不去阻擋他開發的進程就是發展要走"},{"start":7586.42,"end":7604.998,"text":"但是這一個委員關切的問題我們把它列入到你們的報告裡面第二個你們在開發的模式請也列出來其實剛才提到有一件事情每個廠商需要的廠房我光講天車關都就沒工了"},{"start":7606.752,"end":7607.092,"text":"中央政策部長"},{"start":7637.412,"end":7655.219,"text":"同樣開放思考請你們把開放模式寫在裡面有時候還可以降低成本你取得資格進來但是我們要避免怎樣呢有錢有勢的大財團可以進來沒有錢的他沒有辦法開發這個你們也要寫在裡面就是我怎麼扶持有希望的獨角獸也要把它放在裡面"},{"start":7655.939,"end":7684.592,"text":"第3個預算營收收支的處理模式請你把監督機制明確把它列在書我不是要一個形容詞一堆的書面報告而是一個你們提出各種possibilities各種可行性方案的方案在裡面然後這些書面報告經我們同意完成後我們才來動之我們凍結的預算數那我真的希望這個陳冠廷委員也剛才也也一直因為坦白講"},{"start":7685.932,"end":7708.811,"text":"雲家（這個其實這裡不會只有民雄（民雄比較靠近北邊（雲家的發展甚至於周邊的章頭的發展（是我們國家長期來比較欠缺的一塊（我們都希望幫助這個區域（所以我剛才做的這一個內容是（不影響開發進程（但是卻又符合各位委員垂尋的內容（那10%是不是可以大家接受的數額（"},{"start":7709.511,"end":7726.88,"text":"因為剛才黃委員說至少10%我才用10%來談那如果說各位認為還要再高一點我們提一個合理的可以執行的百分比我是10%我覺得太少了這樣好不好我們列五分之一20%很高了因為年度預算有個執行的它的期程"},{"start":7731.701,"end":7734.484,"text":"主席我們在第一階段為什麼會把這個凍結數希望你不可以太低因為剛剛我們講的這些他如果沒有辦法先通盤檢討然後你就進行那後續其實沒有辦法檢討我們希望他是一併的處理因為這個是規劃費"},{"start":7751.383,"end":7761.371,"text":"他後面真正大筆的錢明年我們還要審的啦不是我說的不是大筆的錢是你現在規劃你是由誰負責現在最重要你就是在訂那個標準了嘛就是說我們現在要求這個報告他在明年要給我們看到啦"},{"start":7767.615,"end":7792.316,"text":"我所謂的後面還有大筆預算就是本委員會的監督力量都還在不會不見我的20%其實在預算上是一個像比較高的額度的凍結了我們也不希望影響他沒辦法動我想剛才那幾個模式的要求說明而且要開放思考我覺得如果經濟部可以接受我也不反對你們接受比較好你要寫出一個因為所以好不好20%好不好各位委員"},{"start":7793.427,"end":7797.929,"text":"我這邊再報告一下我建議我就做專案報告這樣更負責專報後啦專報後然後驚同一時的動之啦好因為剛才那個趙偉講的很對啦就是剛才那些東西都是我們質疑的沒錯但其實我們真的是沒有反對你知道嗎因為對那個崇利明委員講的很好我們沒有反對但是這裡面整個的草案和整個的規劃根本就是一大堆問題所以我們今天才在這邊質疑啊但是我們真的沒有反對說不做你知道嗎只是問題蠻多的"},{"start":7823.36,"end":7844.162,"text":"所以剛才提的問題我就說把這四大模式說明清楚我覺得可以然後20%我接受我們惡動節20%專案報告這已經不是說專案報告金童又使得動之那專案報告內容我該特別請那個院長這邊還有部長這邊開放式的思考不要說一定要什麼模式比較好以這個園區可以成功為準好不好"},{"start":7844.622,"end":7845.603,"text":"419案有同意照列420案到425案並按凍結20%的規劃費預算"},{"start":7862.554,"end":7875.201,"text":"專案報告經同意後（使得動之專案報告內容如本席剛才才是好 我們以上處理 那我們現在請那顧立雄部長准假離席改換徐延樸副部長"},{"start":7891.596,"end":7893.198,"text":"選普副部長本身也是軍備副部長這方面他專精"},{"start":7898.027,"end":7904.134,"text":"426委馬文君委員針對施政費支應方式有所指導感謝委員的指導本案已向委員說明 建請同意預算招勵"},{"start":7917.83,"end":7938.494,"text":"同意照列426案同意照列427案請說明427案委員洗澡新委員針對國軍聘僱人員請休假的規定的第4條違反勞動基準之餘感謝委員的指導針對委員關切事項國防部已經在11月28日完成了國軍聘僱人員請休假規定的休班事宜建請同意預算照列"},{"start":7939.294,"end":7956.538,"text":"我這邊照列可以的那當然我要講一下就是說先前這個國軍聘僱人員的休假規定那過去行之有年等於說我們是國防部已經違反勞基法很多年了那所以呢我們雖然照列但是再提醒一下注意勞動權益那這個部分那到時候主決議會列在那個主計局"},{"start":7964.039,"end":7965.32,"text":"我這邊照列因為它其實整體的國防部的這個約聘估是在主計局所以我在主計局那邊我是有一個案子的所以我那裡主決議所以這邊我就照列通過就可以了"},{"start":7982.248,"end":7998.44,"text":"427照案通過428案請說明428案委員針對抗彈板的一個檢驗標準昨日都已經說明過了我們會依照委員的指導同意修訂為主決議428案薛委員有沒有要表達一下沒有的話他們就改主決議"},{"start":7999.932,"end":8000.732,"text":"428案凍結100萬訴願報告後使得凍結請軍備局把抗彈板這些所有什麼抗彈頭盔"},{"start":8022.858,"end":8023.699,"text":"429案為馬文君委員針對國防先進科技研究計劃應就提高"},{"start":8043.511,"end":8070.687,"text":"緊密軍品戰力跟基礎性的研究的規劃要澄清說明感謝委員的指導本案已向委員說明建請同意下修凍結五千萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得動之來那個馬委員請好謝謝主席這個部分我們每年都是編了將近十億的預算我們大概也沒有說經常去要求看到它的成果是不是有舉幾個例子"},{"start":8073.158,"end":8089.714,"text":"因為中科院跟軍備局都有嘛那大概都還是找其他的一些民間的學校一些大學專家（你這是DIU那個東西是不是這個是學院中心的有沒有什麼模式不涉及機密的可以分享一下"},{"start":8090.534,"end":8109.89,"text":"跟委員報告我們一套先進的計畫我們各軍種我們就完成了一些的111到112案112年就完成了88案應用銜接在5G系統的開發、研製能量並且它的使用率是92其餘的都是屬於基礎的分析部分"},{"start":8110.53,"end":8133.675,"text":"另外我們114年的重點是在無人載具、光電的徵收、復合材料（水下的無人艇的水下增資（還有艦艇的製造跟治安防護等範疇（我們都會跟國科會（現在國科會都跟我們密切的在聯繫（委會結合學院中心（針對這些要運用到我們的國防的（各種的開發的基礎的部分（以上說明報告來,馬會員"},{"start":8134.955,"end":8136.516,"text":"這個部分因為我們剛剛聽到的是數據我們要的就不是數據因為你花了10億每年10億我要比較具體的案例你列在書面報告因為你這個題目都會寫得很專業因為就像"},{"start":8152.165,"end":8160.327,"text":"他們在講那個偶爾贈他可以用那個什麼什麼什麼牡蠣做紅醬什麼的你可以講的很好聽可是到最後那是什麼東西具體的讓大家知道他的成效那另外因為像我們這個部分無人機我們現在可能又要投入一些相關的經費從我們為什麼會改成商規大家心知肚明我們很希望他可以再精進"},{"start":8180.816,"end":8182.276,"text":"429案凍結五千萬書面報告經同意後使得凍資書面報告內容請探蓋"},{"start":8208.204,"end":8229.26,"text":"不涉及機密的具體案例工作證第430案請說明第430案委員馬文君委員針對公立電子射頻產業應用發展計畫研究發展執行進度等提出說明感謝委員的指導本案也向委員說明同意凍結一千萬辦理"},{"start":8233.102,"end":8233.882,"text":"430案 凍結1000萬 統一凍結1000萬 書面報告金童佑史的公知現在人家都已經在研發6G了 5G的通訊系統還在研發"},{"start":8251.249,"end":8251.289,"text":"431案請說明"},{"start":8268.018,"end":8293.987,"text":"431案為馬文君委員針對野戰權申請動力外骨骼系統開發與前研究如何的整合部分這也是我們馬委員去年也有在指導我們的我們都已經向馬委員說明感謝委員的指導同意依委員的提案來辦理一千萬是三成喔OK嗎你們確定OK你是凍結一千萬還是凍結多少凍結一千萬你們這個"},{"start":8296.499,"end":8298.62,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分．"},{"start":8319.229,"end":8319.349,"text":"麻煩馬委員"},{"start":8337.586,"end":8341.631,"text":"我再補充一下凍結的原因因為109年到110年之前因為外骨骼這已經很久了所以之前在109到110的時候那是膝關節的動力開發"},{"start":8352.363,"end":8355.745,"text":"現在從113到116就是膝加髖就是膝關節加髖關節還有一個部分一個部分他因為有些當然這是不容易這算腳踏實地慢慢長大這個是不容易可是你也不能說都是一個小區塊小區塊那現在要怎麼樣讓他比如實務化剛剛講的除了在醫療上面對於這個照顧人對一些長照的一個"},{"start":8378.857,"end":8379.257,"text":"其實那個搬彈我上次看你們那個八寸流"},{"start":8406.271,"end":8411.313,"text":"其實這個外股格價我們真的是很支持啦因為這個不管是對於未來如果他有商員的復原然後還有包含是對這個老人的長照等等都很重要"},{"start":8429.198,"end":8453.574,"text":"但我這邊分享一個事情就是說我們台北市政府在那個廣慈博愛園區那邊然後他們有做一個就是他們就反正我上次去參觀的時候對對對他們就已經做出那種很類似我開玩笑的那種類似鋼鐵人他是整個的不是單做膝關節或者是那個就是髖關節他是已經把整個下半身就全部做好他也有上半身的對所以說因為剛剛馬委員提到小區塊這個部分嘛"},{"start":8457.376,"end":8474.113,"text":"其實用大區塊的動力式的我那時候去廣州試過它是商用開發但是我想說如果技術上面中科院這裡也有是不是可以多參考一下多元的方向下次如果我們排考察拿出來看一下不過中科院我都擔心成本你太貴市商就沒有商機你還是要跟國際巡價一樣有時候是價格問題"},{"start":8481.3,"end":8487.686,"text":"但我們因為廣慈那邊做他就價格還好所以我覺得那個是商規的好我們來處理這批預算哈431案凍結1000萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍支來432到433請說明"},{"start":8499.885,"end":8520.024,"text":"432及433案並案分別為馬文均委員及荒安委員針對次世代先進製造關鍵技術開發計畫應就研究發展規劃等提出說明感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意並案凍結一千萬並向委員委員會提出書面報告後時的通知來如果各位沒有意見的話我們就並案處理我們以"},{"start":8522.675,"end":8545.052,"text":"黃仁委員的案子為主題案433案並案並案合併處理凍結一千萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍支那你們這次世代是指Next Generation是不是是下世代的意思嗎他的內容我直接講就是大型的3D列印OK好來那個馬委員要詢問"},{"start":8545.919,"end":8570.387,"text":"對呀,因為這個從106年我們大概也是106到109是一個階段然後110到113又另外一個階段那現在剛剛院長也提到說是一個大型的一個列印的機械對,3D列印的機器我們希望最後一年其實也要有一些小批量的生產啦因為都已經進過三階段了嘛可以印那個100塊錢的無人機嘛對不對"},{"start":8573.321,"end":8595.685,"text":"我可以在書面報告裡面寫我講實在的話高交機去年遇到的一些就是這個零件供應鏈的斷鏈你那個書面報告寫清楚一點那如果涉及機密讓負責的召委知道接下來是434案434黃任委員沒有寫怎麼處理好434案請說明434案為黃任委員針對"},{"start":8599.426,"end":8625.346,"text":"光中銀區土地長年沒有完成整治的應該提出說明感謝委員的指導本案已向委員說明建請同意下修凍結兩百萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍結公請委員指代換委員這一次是提醒國防部配合地方政府發展雖然是好意但未來類似的案件裡面也應該先確立權力還有義務的範圍好不好"},{"start":8630.76,"end":8633.763,"text":"我們軍備局最後一案同意凍結200萬元書面報告後使得凍支來換主計 主計局"},{"start":8639.827,"end":8662.555,"text":"主席局針對第435案做說明435案為林祖英委員關心有關軍人除夕業務法制化的進度已經向委員辦公室說明並提供資料同意依委員的提案來辦理凍結主計作業費與業務費100萬元後續本部會提供相關書面資料詳細說明有關法制化的進度跟辦理情形請委員指導來提案委員OK嗎"},{"start":8663.455,"end":8668.738,"text":"我希望你們能夠法制化而且最好是能夠除了存款之外也有放款因為過程中我不只一次質詢到有關中共利用我們軍人虛錢恐擊或者是在借貸無處的時候讓他們洩漏軍機那麼如果說真的我們有機會能夠也"},{"start":8686.789,"end":8693.892,"text":"（處理．12月16日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19"},{"start":8712.343,"end":8722.791,"text":"謝偉,我們有關急難貸款部分我們現在正在積極努力中在後續的書面報告我們會一併做說明這個處理的方式當然我們書面報告請你詳實寫凍結100萬書面報告後時的凍支不過我要提醒國軍我剛才還特別跟將軍確認"},{"start":8728.775,"end":8755.994,"text":"其實第一個我們現在基層官兵常常因為財務困難做錯事有時候你覺得怎麼做這種對不起國家的事但有時候又發現他被逼到走投無路都是因為財務然後財務以我們國軍的現在的薪資坦白講正常過日子不會有財務困境我們從以前我在六聯隊那將軍以前在帶海軍都一樣或者我們黃人委員也是空技出身的都是跟賭博有關係的"},{"start":8757.403,"end":8768.653,"text":"很多都跟賭博有關係所以我們現在不管共諜案、洩密案或者貪賭案其實背後有一大塊都是因為財務因素導致我們軍紀武德淪喪那在這個方面"},{"start":8772.748,"end":8798.627,"text":"我們一直在處理我借錢給你啊、貸款啊、那個互助會啊什麼的你只是在上面處理他的財務缺口那個賭博這一塊其實不管是憲兵或是政戰單位其實這一塊要強化我們上次在那個歸人跟一連隊那邊我們就發現憲兵跟那個士官被那個保全帶著去玩那個數位的那個賭博後來他還成為下線再去拉人來"},{"start":8799.848,"end":8823.359,"text":"那條線如果被共諜網進來的話整個就變轉型了最近空軍也是這個事情所以這個案子那個林楚雲雖然凍結一百萬看起來不多我倒覺得那個我們國防部這邊針對這個凍財務的困境其實警察之前也有處理過一塊欠卡債的這個都是一些症狀那背後那個賭博的因素"},{"start":8825.261,"end":8841.456,"text":"該重懲（或者是說該修法去處理那些（又使我們國軍弟兄姊妹去涉毒的（我覺得要處理好不好好我們435案處理完畢再來436案請說明不用說明照列通過好不好好同意照列"},{"start":8844.534,"end":8861.744,"text":"他做了兩天整天的我也做了兩天的不要為難他了來同意照列437案437案我直接講好不好就是剛剛的那個啊就是對該組決議就是他跟剛才我們講的那個是427案對427案是一樣所以我剛剛已經說明過了就不需要再說明這兩案併一個組決議就好了"},{"start":8866.167,"end":8866.367,"text":"接下來軍醫局"},{"start":8880.58,"end":8905.328,"text":"438跟439案請說明各位委員好第438、439案分別為林益君委員及陳永康委員提案第438案林益君委員針對國軍高山偏遠營區及艦艇醫療資源普遍不足如何補足其醫療量能之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明艦艇同意預算照列"},{"start":8906.91,"end":8927.339,"text":"兩位委員陳永康委員和林益君委員第439案陳永康委員針對國軍外離島高山偏遠營區及艦艇醫療資源普遍不足如何提升其醫療量能提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明艦艇同意改列主決議兩位委員林益君委員"},{"start":8928.98,"end":8935.946,"text":"謝謝主席最主要這個提案主要是針對我們東部還有外離島還有高山比較偏遠的地區因為長期的醫療缺乏然後醫療量能不足然後軍醫常常都提前的退伍然後退賠率都太高了所以我才本來是想要凍結這個預算然後希望軍醫局能夠提升軍醫上面的福利還有降低軍醫的退伍的意願還有特別要補強我們花東地區不是退伍的意願留任的意願對對"},{"start":8956.164,"end":8956.605,"text":"438改為主決議"},{"start":8971.178,"end":8986.285,"text":"其實這個搭配國防醫學院跟相關的條件其實讓軍醫願意到偏遠的地方服務其實對野戰醫院城各方面都有幫忙那謝謝我們438案照列439案改組決議好謝謝陳永康委員來440案到442案請說明"},{"start":8996.73,"end":9012.043,"text":"440-442案分別為馬文君委員及王定宇委員提案440案馬文君委員針對政戰綜合作業之案日案件計資酬金提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列"},{"start":9013.799,"end":9031.063,"text":"馬委員OK嗎那個預算照列政戰中委會這50萬的對對對 照列謝謝委員那我本來要動 既然馬委員同意照列那我知道面為其難 同意照列你的在 報竹 朝委您在事事議案"},{"start":9031.403,"end":9049.356,"text":"我41喔,你剛才講的不是全部啊那我41你們的溝通是怎樣41案完立委員針對持續強化基層幹部及各級新府人員專業能力之培訓工作提案感謝委員指導本案委員的建議是凍結100萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍資44案是馬文君委員針對政戰綜合作業之委辦費提案"},{"start":9059.205,"end":9076.626,"text":"本案已向委員說明建請同意免疫檢列改為凍結預算二分之一並向委員會提出書面報告後此得凍結二分之一委辦費凍結二分之一我本來是全三的那馬委員OK啦我先說原因啦"},{"start":9077.667,"end":9088.659,"text":"因為軍醫局他編這一筆預算雖然這一個業務是重要的可是就我們剛剛在政戰局其實也有提到"},{"start":9090.911,"end":9115.898,"text":"衛福部今天編了至少3億多吧我記得他的經費非常高他可以讓15歲到45歲的年輕人都已經有這樣的機會去看醫生那軍醫局我們本來認為不適合放這筆預算的一個重要的原因是軍醫體系它本身就有很多醫院那你裡面的醫院就有"},{"start":9116.778,"end":9116.818,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":9146.384,"end":9146.444,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9164.193,"end":9185.465,"text":"在我們軍中的新府官以外還有其他更好的補強的方式可是絕對不會是在軍醫局因為他這裡應該本來就有自己的能量然後你把它介紹出去給別人這樣很怪所以我同意凍結二分之一看是不是有也讓他可以做可是至少應該要有一個方向明年要怎麼樣做一些修正"},{"start":9186.165,"end":9201.234,"text":"預算數如果沒有問題的話我們來處理啦那個我先補宣告剛才438案林玉君召委的案改組決議那個預算都照列好440案同意照列441案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍資442案"},{"start":9206.897,"end":9210.718,"text":"（凍結580萬（這樣加起來就是一半了（580萬書面報告經同意後（使得凍支接下來處理443案到447案請說明443案到447案分為馬文君委員及陳永康委員提案"},{"start":9227.722,"end":9252.341,"text":"第443案馬文君委員針對軍事醫療作業費之雜項設備費新增預算之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列來兩位委員有沒有意見沒有意見的話這是第443你全部說完全部第444案是馬文君委員針對軍事醫療作業之按日案件計資酬金預算調整案"},{"start":9254.52,"end":9280.08,"text":"感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明依委員提案檢列一千萬、凍結一百萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍支第四四五案馬文君委員針對軍事醫療作業之物品預算調整案提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建議同意下修檢列一千萬、凍結一百萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":9281.175,"end":9297.562,"text":"第446案陳永康委員針對暫時大量傷患救治國防部在平時整備時預算編列情形提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明現請同意改列主決議第447案馬文君委員針對軍事醫療作業費之一般事務費調整預算案"},{"start":9304.705,"end":9317.864,"text":"感謝委員指導以上委員說明建請同意下修為凍結150萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍支剛才是你們溝通後的數額跟處理方式各位委員這個沒有問題嗎"},{"start":9319.505,"end":9348.343,"text":"沒有問題有沒有要表達意見來先請政刊委員對我446啊同意主決議但我加一句就是說我們針對的不只是暫時大量傷患的救治這個在國防部考慮還包括傷患後送因為你不是在現場因為你還有傷患後送是所以後送的連帶帶到的就是救護車啦其他的隨行人員這個部分請一起納入考量是謝謝委員好謝謝政刊委員馬委員"},{"start":9349.813,"end":9354.955,"text":"針對444案因為這個部分又有新增預算可是我們看到這是按日計酬的一個費用那光是在113年大概編了1900多萬那他受訓的人數或者他拿到證照因為我們做這些像初級救護還有中級救護的當然我們希望大家都有這樣的能量可是"},{"start":9379.785,"end":9384.069,"text":"是不是一定要做到說大家都拿到證照我覺得讓大家都有這樣的一個基本技能可能還是比較好的那今年後來又要再增加增加經費我們希望你一年想要訓多少人就把它比較明確下來那我們就把它做好"},{"start":9400.222,"end":9400.242,"text":"。（處理（"},{"start":9421.511,"end":9426.293,"text":"今年83場次老師的費用就達到1400多萬你都可以請專職的一些老師來好好的上課了所以到底為什麼要把它變成用按日計酬的我覺得這個可能要去檢討一下所以三一千東一百"},{"start":9439.522,"end":9463.39,"text":"我來做預算的處理443案同意照列444案簡列1000、凍結100萬那簡列科目自行調整凍結的部分書面報告後使得凍支那待會凡是要書面報告的或涵蓋主決議的請就委員書面跟口頭詢問的部分要逐條回答"},{"start":9465.691,"end":9470.692,"text":"第445案簡列一千萬科目字型調整凍結一百萬書面報告後時的凍結"},{"start":9481.816,"end":9491.087,"text":"對在原科目因為我們希望他去檢討說是不是需要這麼大的量你說那個急救包的量的OK好那這個445案這個檢列1000萬就綁定在急救包這個項目上就不要再進行調整那"},{"start":9500.61,"end":9517.58,"text":"動輒一百萬書面報告後使得動支446案陳永康委員提案改組決議（組決議處理內容請涵蓋剛才委員垂詢部分447案動輒一百五十萬書面報告後使得動支接下來處理448案到449案請說明"},{"start":9522.27,"end":9539.982,"text":"第48-449案分別為馬文君委員及徐曉新委員提案第448案為馬文君委員針對教育行政之對特種基金之補助提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建警同意下修為凍結300萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":9544.605,"end":9571.383,"text":"第449案為徐巧欣委員針對就讀國防醫學院軍費生注數費由公費支應現今教育部已對同齡學生進行全面補助為讀漏國防醫學院300多位自費生提案感謝委員指導本案原意委員建議大學部自費生注數費以114學年度起由軍教基金給予補助本案建議建請同意改為主決議"},{"start":9573.524,"end":9589.749,"text":"我先說明一下好不好非常感謝這個軍醫局有跟上我們的公私立大學因為他們的學生都有補助那我來說明一下國防醫學院的大學生從大一到大六自費學生306人公費學生1139人總共1445人那以自費生306人乘以4950元每一個學期其實只有151萬而已並不是說很多的數額"},{"start":9598.852,"end":9615.364,"text":"那呢基本上這個部分因為剛才有說從114年開始做補助嘛那我在這裡想要詢問說那因為113年下學期是不是因為這個經費並不是很多那我們就從下學期就可以開始提供我們的這些學生"},{"start":9616.324,"end":9631.574,"text":"下學期的部分因為剛好他們學生是上下學期不是說年度嘛那如果可以說現在113年度他現在才上學期而已然後接下來會到下學期"},{"start":9632.815,"end":9634.056,"text":"明年的下學期就114的後半年開始"},{"start":9648.342,"end":9667.515,"text":"114的後半因為學年跟我們快捷年度不一樣學年度是7、8、9開始那你們所以會開始的時間點是你們學年度是8月1號開始吧8月1號開始不是7、8、9是8月1號開始8月1號所以就是114年的8月明年的8月開始那個名詞用學年度有時候我們很容易誤解比如他講118學年度那個是指8月1號到119年的7月31號"},{"start":9674.059,"end":9674.079,"text":"馬委員"},{"start":9694.769,"end":9700.814,"text":"448的部分主要是因為國防醫學院的錢現在已經是基金的方式了他本來就可以捐補助也可以跟廠商合作所以包括校友也可以捐款或者跟民間的一些廠商或者一些企業來合作所以我們希望把捐補助的金額上限可以把它訂出來"},{"start":9716.946,"end":9717.086,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":9739.172,"end":9740.873,"text":"448和449448案凍結300萬書面報告後時的凍支449案改組決議預算同意照列450案請說明"},{"start":9764.08,"end":9780.174,"text":"第450案為馬文君委員針對辦理三種丁州縣區介受大樓耐震能力補強工程之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意下修為凍結五百萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":9783.855,"end":9785.076,"text":"這個案子馬委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":9801.067,"end":9805.708,"text":"451案為馬文君委員針對水電供應向下水電費以113年相較之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列"},{"start":9827.54,"end":9843.646,"text":"馬文君委員 同意照列451案同意照列452案請說明452案為馬文君委員針對新型人體離心機結案年之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明 建請同意預算照列"},{"start":9844.636,"end":9846.078,"text":"453-455案分別為沈博洋委員、黃仁委員及馬文君委員提案"},{"start":9860.695,"end":9889.258,"text":"第453案沈維揚委員針對預應暫時作戰區二級為其能量不足等規劃後送機制是否包含民間單位及協作機制為何之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列第454案黃仁委員針對醫療設備之國軍前進外科小組裝備整備採購案之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意改列主決議"},{"start":9890.439,"end":9906.626,"text":"第455案馬文君委員針對國軍前軍外科小組裝備整備規劃採購案之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意凍結十分之一兩千萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":9914.244,"end":9914.444,"text":"主席"},{"start":9944.304,"end":9970.023,"text":"然後我們也會檢視它但我們這科目自行調整還是要放上去因為我們變成綁了一個很大的那它那個細項我們是分支計劃啦所以我們現在這個決議會變成這個分支計劃通通沒辦法自行調整對我們加一個附註加一個附註啦好不好我我我對對這個議事人員提醒-1000萬嘛對對對好不好我們剛才那個是第400集案"},{"start":9972.253,"end":9993.293,"text":"445案我們還是科目可以進行調整但是在這預算上加注這個檢列一千萬元是針對急救包這樣子那是455啦445445吧對445445好那這樣我們取得委員同意啦好剛才"},{"start":9995.716,"end":10010.233,"text":"453到455453到455的部分來那個沈博洋委員這個軍運局有來說明跟醫院的這一個相關的協作機制還有部署講得非常的詳細所以我同意照列然後黃院委員剛有表達要改組決議嘛好那有那個455案呢"},{"start":10016.069,"end":10019.252,"text":"10分之一是多少錢2000萬那我分配一下啦好不好那個"},{"start":10046.309,"end":10060.736,"text":"當然剛才沈博洋委員有同意照列我是不是讓沈博洋這邊也凍結一千萬然後馬委員這邊凍結一千萬然後那個書面報告經同意後 使得凍支那黃恩委員改組決議我這邊有個總量表來"},{"start":10066.072,"end":10074.737,"text":"第456案為馬文君委員針對醫療設備之國軍醫院精準醫療救護設備整備結案年之提案感謝委員指導本院已向委員說明現請同意預算照列"},{"start":10094.131,"end":10111.644,"text":"馬委員同意照列好456同意照列來457請說明457案為馬文君委員針對醫療設備之第四作戰區高階執政及正子斷層掃描系統整備結案年之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意下修為簡列兩百萬"},{"start":10121.239,"end":10135.245,"text":"第458案為沈博洋委員針對今年對於花東軍民醫療的投入成果與未來規劃及偏遠地區醫療之建制之提案感謝委員知道本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列"},{"start":10136.457,"end":10136.617,"text":"三位委員"},{"start":10150.219,"end":10165.866,"text":"我們會有花蓮總醫院有心臟內科醫生三種也會支援心臟內科醫生明年會有心導館14年那這個委員的提案你就同意照列嗎你要不要他一個報告給你"},{"start":10167.608,"end":10180.736,"text":"他們上次有說明當然如果說有給個公文書面吧你們進駐的時程還是要給他這個部分的話我建議這樣子好不好沈博洋委員這個原文改組決議然後請軍醫局針對這個組決議你們進駐的人數、量能、時程做一個回覆文給沈博洋委員458案改組決議"},{"start":10192.581,"end":10214.11,"text":"主席請沈博安委員擬出再來459案請說明第459案為馬文君委員針對國軍醫院軍政醫學網路設備系統提升案結案年之提案感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意下修為凍結一千萬並向委員會提出書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":10217.05,"end":10238.838,"text":"這個部分因為是結案年了那全案的預算也高達一億兩千多萬大概是什麼樣的內容希望可以提出書面說明什麼是軍政醫學這個我都會蠻好奇的軍政醫學幾環跟軍事作戰相關的醫學包括航空醫學、海底醫學、燒傷醫學、亞醫學、藥學、護理學"},{"start":10243.1,"end":10243.561,"text":"就是跟戰場狀況相關的"},{"start":10247.914,"end":10274.266,"text":"選兵醫學海底通通都算很大從選兵預防保健還有防疫到戰場的戰傷軍事訓練那大概是哪一個科每一科裡面都分這個科跟這有關就叫軍政醫學所以大家的科目裡面有哪一科應該是排除法哪一科不算軍政醫學醫美科"},{"start":10276.127,"end":10276.327,"text":"一千萬（"},{"start":10293.746,"end":10317.037,"text":"好 這個459...等一下 因為我覺得剛才那個昭薇講的這個很有意思喔所以在這個軍事醫療作業的到時候我們的這個書面報告裡面你們可不可以寫詳細一點就是說我們的各科就我們軍事的各科裡面然後相關的醫療你們軍政醫學怎麼分的啦對對對 我們也得到一些新的知識嘛補充一下我們的知識書面報告你就把講選兵嘛 預防嘛"},{"start":10319.198,"end":10320.339,"text":"．19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19日及19"},{"start":10348.246,"end":10354.248,"text":"休息10分鐘到群眾署白署長白署長是我成大的學長請大家多多照顧"},{"start":10368.021,"end":10368.101,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10381.734,"end":10382.115,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10405.799,"end":10406.119,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10430.13,"end":10431.471,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10459.029,"end":10459.71,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10487.653,"end":10489.534,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":10513.729,"end":10514.269,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10540.067,"end":10558.738,"text":"21號早上一大早就開始,然後送上到台北對啊,我們都一直兩個都要符合做待遵守對,對,我們講的一直都是這樣,所以是他把他留下台灣3.5還有3.4、3.5、3.9,還等到年二一屆的選舉好"},{"start":10567.843,"end":10571.185,"text":"另外另外另外24號就會議對對我靠人家我講說"},{"start":10590.389,"end":10592.49,"text":"國防大學最後一項,麻煩委員會講一下話"},{"start":10603.977,"end":10604.278,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10623.27,"end":10639.782,"text":"我們當初是為了因為理工學院他有編118萬的機運數字他會產生是因為他三年前颱風他能比較小的數字他都處理掉了現在因為他堆到校園裡面"},{"start":10641.103,"end":10654.378,"text":"因為辦活他必須要親一隻他才跟國防大學編入錢給他這代表一件事事實上國防大學下面的理工學院管理學院、政戰學院市場平常是經費可能是不足像三軍官校"},{"start":10655.899,"end":10674.105,"text":"陸海空司令部司令部每年會幫三軍方編列一些計費然後反而這件事看起來好像是理工學員的錯事國防部跟國防部大臣根本不重視他下屬的三軍司令部會編列預算"},{"start":10682.819,"end":10683.96,"text":"國防大學下屬的理工學院"},{"start":10712.566,"end":10714.89,"text":"管理學院還有政戰學院"},{"start":10722.768,"end":10738.466,"text":"要請國防部跟國防大學要多多關心他們給他們充足的預算因為他們屬於國防科技還有政戰政戰學院要請國防部跟國防大學多多關心他們"},{"start":10752.637,"end":10771.247,"text":"國防大學管理因為他是廣東下屬的三個學院國防部跟國大要關心他們,給他們充足的預算去更新校舍跟教學設施"},{"start":10772.568,"end":10773.309,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10788.539,"end":10801.517,"text":"這樣他能遭到一些自願意的軍官然後到部會去服務像國防醫院他是獨立的平常就是由軍運警察去他們預算所以他們沒有問題那這三所事上很可憐"},{"start":10808.504,"end":10817.577,"text":"因為國防大學他比較重視戰爭學院跟參謀學院所以他這些經驗根本不太理他們可是因為是可以看出來3年了3年只有180萬都付給他那不是很誇張"},{"start":10829.947,"end":10844.454,"text":"要裝飾戰爭跟你?戰爭群跟蔡柏惟他下面三個基屬院校平常都不太理他有點誇張例子是那三年他才要118萬去那邊辦活動才給他錢"},{"start":10852.534,"end":10852.734,"text":"委員好"},{"start":10863.788,"end":10890.391,"text":"有關我們這個指導這個有關那個海軍的訓練經費的這些有關對外寫訊的行政資源如果說有護術資用需要繳付這件事情我會請委員來幫忙去做因為其實各單位的交付單由我們這邊用管制局來處理只是我們相關預算法跟行政各部門講過那如果這個案子改成建期案那我就沒有意見可以改成建期"},{"start":10894.675,"end":10914.488,"text":"就是對外協訓的不須致用書要繳付這件事情可不可以改善建築因已經算不錯了因就是你應該然後也許你特殊的狀況你還可以有不同的那個"},{"start":10916.504,"end":10923.03,"text":"見情一樣的意思啊?我們是認為說你應該要這樣啊?應該還好吧?因為其實我們也是按照一些按照規定的做啦如果說跟他講回來是不會讓我們很開心這樣對啊就陰欸"},{"start":10932.217,"end":10936.942,"text":"因就是你可能在某些特殊的狀況所以你應該啦因就可以了啦"},{"start":10956.398,"end":10966.1,"text":"建議陰一降倒建議陰一我直接寫嗎還是建議陰你叫我寫建請不要建議陰好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10978.785,"end":10979.106,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10993.829,"end":11007.479,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11009.74,"end":11010.221,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11043.136,"end":11063.344,"text":"各位委員、我們國防部各所屬我們恢復開會我本席先把後續的議程做一個宣告第一個我們待會處理到12點半休息一個小時讓大家用餐12點半休息到1點半然後"},{"start":11064.724,"end":11081.688,"text":"所屬12點半處理完（所屬處理完（會宣讀組決議（把所屬相關的組決議處理完（來處理部本部（部本部處理完了進行機密二輪（機密二輪處理完我們處理公開二輪（"},{"start":11085.709,"end":11111.069,"text":"然後順利化應該屆時就結束我再宣達一次我們今天上午的會先開到12點半用餐時間一個小時1點半恢復開會那12點半處理到什麼案就什麼案我們到時候會斟酌了然後1點半恢復開會所屬處理完國防部所屬單位處理完宣讀組決議可能要一小段時間宣讀組決議完處理組決議"},{"start":11113.571,"end":11133.573,"text":"主決議處理完我們處理部本部預算部本部預算處理完處理機密未達共識的第二輪機密未達共識第二輪處理完處理公開的部分的第二輪也請各位利用不管是宣讀主決議時間或者用餐時間那去把"},{"start":11134.514,"end":11149.814,"text":"必須進到二輪的（把它溝通好（像目前為止（林楚雲委員的進入二輪已經改組決議那有關那個彈藥的那個紅准的部分剛才馬委員我們在開會前有跟那個部長溝通那個部分是不是"},{"start":11154.037,"end":11164.501,"text":"中科院在紅准二（可以達到串列彈藥（或是你會達到一些（它真的比較先進的功能的時候（再讓你們去動之這筆預算（預算數是不是兩億或怎麼樣（我們來看處理（報告主席 有兩個（"},{"start":11171.104,"end":11180.953,"text":"案件進入第二輪有一個改組決議那另外一個有達成共識所以等下最後結束的時候也可以過來把那個一個是62一個是6969改組決議62的話我們有達成一些共識還是有凍結對然後交報告你把達成共識的部分待會請業務單位做報告那也是在二輪處理了"},{"start":11190.982,"end":11191.202,"text":"463-461案請說明"},{"start":11215.908,"end":11235.261,"text":"各位委員好這個462案為羅美玲委員提案461案為林楚英委員提案均是共同來關切較早訓練能量的議題前以至委員辦公室來說明建起同意並案凍結50萬元並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍資你並案凍結50萬元是來羅美玲委員"},{"start":11247.975,"end":11260.554,"text":"461案我跟處理委員所提案的內容是一樣的就是針對於這個權動署在其實最主要是針對你們109年10月改組以前你們曾經向這個外交國防委員會提交一份"},{"start":11261.534,"end":11280.385,"text":"國軍提升後備戰力的專案報告（期間你們有向委員會說明（未來將擴充教招訓練的量能（然後精進教招的訓練的內容（其中還提到會提升教招的量能部分全動數還表示說（經提升後備戰力專案改革之後（訓練總能量將"},{"start":11283.266,"end":11289.049,"text":"增加到29萬人可是我們發現從全動數110年1月成立到現在連續3年我們發現較早的目標數跟實際的這個這個招訊數呢其實是遠低於你們在這個專案裡面所提到的這個"},{"start":11300.675,"end":11300.815,"text":"請林楚瑛委員"},{"start":11325.334,"end":11330.857,"text":"我簡單的來講就是說我們全動數成立之後你們原本承諾的是29萬的人力但是從111到143其實平均每一年只有12萬人言下之意你們自己跟自己設定的目標達成率只有66%那這中間的落差當然就會影響到我們所有的後備人力或相對的我們全動數當初成立的部分那這個年度預算有1億"},{"start":11351.906,"end":11356.589,"text":"2000多萬其實我們提的數額很小我們不是去反對這個預算而是你們在預算的執行過程當中跟預期的目標其實實在差距太多我們其實很客氣啦我那時候有跟我們助理說你1億2我們才動50但是因為我們不是要讓你無法運作而是你們到底有沒有辦法有效的去達到預期目標"},{"start":11376.08,"end":11401.621,"text":"不然的話邊列這樣的預算來講我真的會覺得這個花到底花在什麼地方是值得做一個有效的報告的好 那個白署長回答之前我想有幾個大家關心的點一遍回答我們在這個桌上回答第一個當然我們後備的教召的目標你們是29萬嘛那剛才講答標率好像未及半原因在哪裡另外一個"},{"start":11402.682,"end":11423.499,"text":"很多人把這個叫招當作要普及的好像所有的異難都要很公平都被抽到其實你們叫招應該有戰力的考量比方說剛退的人戰力其實比較強那退了很久的也許他就比較生疏就常常會說你們老是集中那20%的人在叫招這個問題也請你一併回答"},{"start":11426.22,"end":11444.224,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11445.148,"end":11466.355,"text":"你幾歲你有那麼老嗎他已經去了兩次了然後呢為我們國軍付出然後另外一位是今年5月去花蓮的那就是說呢剛剛趙偉講到的是很有趣的一件事就是說都集中在他們幾個人身上他有一些考量我待會請他一邊說明你們有考量啦但是你們是非常集中像我辦公室同仁另外一位是每一年幾乎都去了因為他比較年輕一點所以他都一直在那個範圍他沒有專長"},{"start":11471.377,"end":11488.503,"text":"有一個人他就是火防兵每次教召他就會都有我跟你說他沒有專長你為什麼把自己主理講成這個樣子他只是喜歡為國付出喜歡去參加教召他年齡還可以的話我建議他簽留營不要不要我辦公室要留著等一下明年應該還會去"},{"start":11490.783,"end":11513.919,"text":"我剛才講的三個第一個是目標額為什麼沒有達標第二個我剛才講叫招的對象好像有集中在某一些人身上這個原因第三個我知道你們之前有一個好像自願去參加射擊訓練的你們今年人數好像有縮減我建議那個可以放大就是說像我可能已經除役了但我願意回來去做射擊打靶訓練那個資訊不夠"},{"start":11517.301,"end":11517.941,"text":"這三個問題是不是請白署長來說明一下"},{"start":11535.354,"end":11552.299,"text":"我先回答這個第一個問題那後續也會在報告裡面再詳細的去說明在109年我們去估算我們後備部隊需要訓練的能力的時候如同委員剛才所說的希望每年能夠訓29萬但是因為我們後來認為說應該強化常備部隊所以在113年開始就是增級一年的"},{"start":11562.061,"end":11574.332,"text":"這個政策是在一年以前就要去規劃所以它使得我們未來我們的有些後備部隊轉型成長備部隊自然而然叫招的需求會比較少但這個詳細的細節我們會在報告裡面去做說明第二個"},{"start":11578.496,"end":11599.887,"text":"就是較早的一個次數或者有沒有集中的問題基本上就是兵役法施行法第27條規定我們較早的人員就是我們退伍以後大概就是4次違憲絕對不會超過4次可是實際上我們這個都是以就是退伍你剛退伍沒多久"},{"start":11600.407,"end":11615.293,"text":"尤其退伍4年內的他還很熟悉部隊以他們為主大概4年內會有兩次就是剛才這個徐曉新委員長就是後退剛退的人戰力最強的那4年內會強化訓練對對對那未來遇到緊急狀況要徵集的單位我們20小時動員的也是這些人"},{"start":11624.764,"end":11637.154,"text":"所以我這個詳細的報告涉及這些民意制度調整我們一定會再報告詳細說明肯定會支持我們的預算因為事實上你要增加訓練更多就是需要預算以上報告"},{"start":11639.643,"end":11654.363,"text":"涉及的部分我們是逐年增加跟委員報告你們今年比去年少這樣報告好了就是說我第一年是只有4梯次到了第二年的話就18個縣市會費率都收18梯次這個牽涉到訓場會增加我建議白書長"},{"start":11657.287,"end":11673.538,"text":"如果報告我們至少我們國防委員會委員你有的要讓我們知道說我們現在有開放就是非徵集對象的就是一般人或者他已經除役了或者女性有沒有開放的時候那個訊息透過我們大家讓大家知道大家來報名嗎"},{"start":11674.298,"end":11703.015,"text":"對阿因為有一些像你看這個然後還有辦公室還有另外一個在看直播的他們都說他們想要為國付出然後如果有這個叫招的機會他是要為國付出還是為國犧牲沒有沒有沒有現在還沒有到犧牲的階段對他們都覺得就是可以去然後叫招我也很認同所以我辦公室成員只要接到叫招令我都說都去吧對對對所以如果說他們有些人想去然後都一直沒有收到通知他們也主動要求然後也都沒有回覆的話我覺得很可惜啦"},{"start":11703.875,"end":11731.992,"text":"題目不錯我們回來處理這個預算數但是我們請白署長就有關開放非就已經除役的人或者不再徵集對象的人可以自願來參加社級訓練甚至可以考慮採取一定的收費也可以分兩種有這個訊息的話至少讓我們國防委員會委員同仁知道我覺得像如果可以開放的話你就可以有人事打挑的部分對所以這個訊息要出來那我們其實我跟羅美玲委員我們就是因為很支持"},{"start":11732.412,"end":11732.612,"text":"感謝委員指導"},{"start":11751.502,"end":11752.163,"text":"463案黃元委員提案請說明"},{"start":11770.403,"end":11773.205,"text":"提案委員（提案委員（提案委員（"},{"start":11796.041,"end":11799.624,"text":"463案凍結50萬書面報告後使得凍支464到473案的併案處理請說明464案至473案總共有10案都是動員整備預算"},{"start":11818.557,"end":11837.202,"text":"其中包括有馬文君委員一案後的順序還有黃能委員、黃定義委員及羅美玲委員關切動員預算的各項的經費支用金融能向委員辦公室報告以後我先說明有兩案改組決議一案改預算照列"},{"start":11841.185,"end":11851.664,"text":"466案黃仁委員提案有關動員通訊費的議題經說明以後同意改列主決議另外"},{"start":11852.694,"end":11862.9,"text":"第469案黃仁委員提案關切動員整備費用旅費的內容經說明後同意改列組決議第470案馬文君委員關切動員整備出國旅費的預算經說明後同意預算照列"},{"start":11876.749,"end":11884.581,"text":"另外還有7案其中有3案要實施預算的刪減是馬文君委員的464案刪減200萬元"},{"start":11889.738,"end":11894.78,"text":"馬文君委員的465案3減200萬元馬文君委員468案3減500萬元合計3減是900萬元我們建議按馬文君委員的指導這個3減900萬元建請科目自行調整"},{"start":11910.706,"end":11919.597,"text":"另外有關保留凍結的部分就是其他的7案其中包含馬文君委員的464案凍結200萬元465案凍結500萬元"},{"start":11926.023,"end":11930.727,"text":"467案也是馬文君委員（凍結200萬元464凍結200萬元馬文君委員465案凍結500萬元是馬文君委員另外一個"},{"start":11943.139,"end":11948.463,"text":"馬文君委員467案凍結200萬元另外還有一個馬文君委員468案凍結500萬元加起來是1400萬元我們建議是按馬文君委員的提案來凍結我們完成書面報告到委員會另外"},{"start":11960.692,"end":11970.616,"text":"還有最後的417黃定委員凍結100萬元471黃定委員凍結100萬元472黃定委員凍結200萬元另外羅美林委員473案是凍結100萬元那建議因為馬文君整個案量比較多我來做分配好不好第一個就剛才的額數各位委員有沒有意見溝通的結果"},{"start":11993.885,"end":12018.292,"text":"他現在是逐案念了就是說溝通的結果是否為真我們先處理這個如果是的話那待會各位再詮詢數額對嘛數額對我跟馬委員討論一下就是說因為你的金額比較大我可能有些數額會分配給羅美玲委員分配給黃蓉委員那你們的數額溝通是對的因為這樣我不知道他剛剛念的是不是跟我們講的有一樣因為有幾個案子我們希望"},{"start":12018.832,"end":12019.352,"text":"464案檢列200、凍結200465案檢列200、凍結500"},{"start":12042.18,"end":12047.243,"text":"466改組決議467凍結200468減列500凍結500469改組決議470案照列471凍結100472凍結200473凍結100但是黃仁、王定宇、羅美蓮的部分我會跟馬委員到時候我們看凍結數怎麼樣子共用啦好數額對不對溝通的數額"},{"start":12071.874,"end":12072.034,"text":"464資訊整合"},{"start":12090.933,"end":12097.522,"text":"因為全動數之前已經有做了建置完成先提代後備動員管理資訊系統已經花了大概4000多萬那在114年的時候全民防衛動員資訊整合系統"},{"start":12107.156,"end":12107.216,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12128.379,"end":12156.845,"text":"全動數也負責所有的人力物力應該要綠定所有的格式讓所有不管是其他的軍種也好或者其他的民間單位也好或者其他的部會也好應該這樣對你們的一個銜接可能也比較容易一點那擴充的這個部分希望它也只是功能精進不要說每次編了比較高額的預算不斷的每年都用這個部分我們希望可以做一些修正"},{"start":12157.585,"end":12167.602,"text":"464、465"},{"start":12170.034,"end":12198.485,"text":"自強演習465自強演習這個部分大概就是按照我們的協議的一個內容不過我們也是希望說你在可能採購的設備方面其實有一些可能也不要浪費或者買到我們可能沒有用的一些物資會造成我們在囤儲的時候可能也造成大家的困難跟麻煩這個部分"},{"start":12204.609,"end":12223.84,"text":"467467是對就是我們之前講的我們所有的出去你要素飲或者要訓練其實我們常常都要多花了很多錢那你在每個軍種大概都有編這些相關的費用它等於是你光是流動廁所全部加起來好像不少"},{"start":12224.6,"end":12253.5,"text":"對對所以我意思是說這個部分可能稍微是不是可以去考量我們有一些閒置的空置的營區要怎麼樣來活化或者來運用這個部分那其他我來處理預算數好不好來我現在來處理預算數我處理之前先跟馬委員討論一下你的468案的凍結500我幫你寫凍結100400的話我會移到其他委員同仁所以總數是一樣這樣好不好"},{"start":12257.553,"end":12265.557,"text":"464 到 473 案委員會通過的決議如下464 案凍結兩百萬科目自行調整凍結兩百萬書面報告後使得凍資465 凍結兩百萬科目自行調整"},{"start":12279.491,"end":12286.796,"text":"動結五百萬書面報告經同意後使得動之466案改組決議467案動結兩百萬書面報告後使得動之468萬簡列五百萬科目自行調整動結一百萬"},{"start":12297.062,"end":12297.082,"text":"請說明"},{"start":12329.635,"end":12350.785,"text":"474案是陳冠廷委員提案（主席不好意思我補充一下（因為剛剛470案我雖然同意照列（不過我也要求必須要提供報告說明他們的（將老把470案的說明（放進去你的（放進去"},{"start":12357.458,"end":12360.804,"text":"相同的同情費物品"},{"start":12368.345,"end":12388.303,"text":"這樣好不好放在你的那個467案裡面一併把那個把同意照列的470案但是你還是要說明說明的時候呢你把它附在那個467案的書面報告裡面現在委員知道好來回到4714請說明"},{"start":12391.871,"end":12409.447,"text":"474案是陳冠廷委員指導關切教昭訓練能量的議題前以致委員辦公室提供說明建行同意下修凍結100萬元並向委員會提出書面報告後時的動資預算書怎麼樣凍結100萬元下修陳冠廷委員OK"},{"start":12414.429,"end":12415.511,"text":"474案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支來現在是475萬到476案"},{"start":12423.327,"end":12427.53,"text":"475及476案馬文君委員關切包括定額服裝費還有素營裝備陣營具迷彩膠鞋等編列議題前一日委員辦公室說明建議475案依委員指導"},{"start":12445.921,"end":12465.651,"text":"3減200萬元科目自行調整令476案經向委員報告建請同意預算照列以上報告來提案委員好這個部分476案同意照列475案因為都是後備的我們之前也都有提到的稍微調整一下減列200預算不要不要自行調整因為200就在這裡而已"},{"start":12471.454,"end":12490.709,"text":"這一個會不會綁到其他的部分會不會跟剛才一樣的問題剪裂啊對對對直接剪裂了啦來475這個案子剪裂200萬那這個科目的話就不用調就直接"},{"start":12492.898,"end":12493.678,"text":"定額補充"},{"start":12513.694,"end":12539.521,"text":"針對定額服裝請你們把它簡列在那個科目上但我們允許你們科目自行調整我們只是附註它簡列是針對那個服裝的部分好現在477案沈博洋委員提案請說明477案是沈博洋委員指導有關微型無人機訓練相關規劃的議題那前置委員辦公室來說明建請同意預算照列"},{"start":12541.533,"end":12542.074,"text":"477案同意照列478案到479案請說明"},{"start":12554.717,"end":12573.304,"text":"478案為馬文君委員提案另外479案為林益君委員提案關切新型步槍的一個籌貨量以及新型步槍雷射模組功能前項委員辦公室提供說明"},{"start":12574.224,"end":12577.588,"text":"針對478案建請同意下修為凍結1000萬元並向委員會提出書面報告後時的凍資479案建請同意預算照列"},{"start":12588.392,"end":12588.753,"text":"後備部隊你是不是需要這麼大的量?"},{"start":12605.151,"end":12613.494,"text":"你後備部隊有要接ST112嗎?應該你們是給後備的職業軍人那這個不是給後備軍人因為明年就要交裝這個是現役人員使用可不可以不要講好就講好了啦那你們現在後備的部隊的他們是用哪一種還在用K2嗎?"},{"start":12632.481,"end":12634.682,"text":"478萬凍結1000萬書面報告經同意或使得凍資479案同意照列480案到481案請說明"},{"start":12650.202,"end":12673.652,"text":"第480案為馬文君委員提案第481案為林益君委員提案是有關微型無人機籌貨的一個進度另外也包含無人機抗干擾的一個能力那今上委員辦公室說明480案建請同意下修為凍結1000萬元並向委員會提出書面報告後時的凍資481案建請同意預算照列"},{"start":12679.946,"end":12705.875,"text":"我們兩個併案處理各位委員若沒意見的話這一個根麻委員長平兄姐這個用林益君委員當主題案好 我們480案跟481案以林益君早委為主題案480案為主題案兩案併案凍結一千萬元書面報告經同意後 使得動之接下來482案請說明這警戒性我們就我們昨天已經有共識了都是凍結10%我們就照"},{"start":12708.476,"end":12734.466,"text":"已經建置完成的這個是作業費那作業費動百分之十你們OK嗎感謝指導這個我改照列百分之十變成三千六是不是那會留下歷史記錄我還沒有審過三千六的好照列啦好482案照列謝謝提醒我這個我沒有看到後面總額"},{"start":12736.773,"end":12740.656,"text":"483案請說明483案為馬文君委員指導有關國軍HF的通信機換裝的進度經常委員辦公室說明依委員提案凍結53000元並向委員會提出書面報告後時的凍結你53000就全凍吧"},{"start":12758.348,"end":12758.908,"text":"484案到490案換國防大學教育長"},{"start":12798.117,"end":12825.343,"text":"好 我們進到國防大學我們看12點半之前能不能把所屬單位盡量處理來484到490請說明早委委員好 國防大學報告第484案是第488案為馬文君委員關心本校教育行政科目向下其他業務租金、物品、一般事務費及救生員委外等項預算編列提出指導"},{"start":12826.424,"end":12835.185,"text":"感謝委員的指導上述5案均已向委員說明經同意484案免予刪減預算照列恭喜委員指導同意照列"},{"start":12836.562,"end":12843.824,"text":"485案同意免於刪減及凍結預算照列486案竟同意下修為凍結500萬元（並向委員提出訴命報告後（使得凍資487案同意下修為3減100萬徵定主決議科目自行調整488案同意免於刪減預算照列公請委員指導"},{"start":12866.991,"end":12882.857,"text":"489案至第490案為陳冠廷委員關心本校遠彭專案及國際人道法軍事院校交流研議會等出國案提出指導感謝委員的指導本案已向委員說明經同意489案下修為凍結20萬元並向委員會提出順便報告後使得動之"},{"start":12887.028,"end":12904.769,"text":"第493案竟同意免於凍結預算造劣歐勤委員知道各位委員若沒有其他意見的話預算數也有共識的話我們就來處理預算額度不在處理預算額度之前你們那個銀色管院跟政院的那個改建案現在走到哪裡了"},{"start":12905.35,"end":12908.633,"text":"那時候處理這個案子的校長還不是劉志斌喔那時候校長是"},{"start":12930.861,"end":12949.015,"text":"以前王司令那你們這樣子有點太慢了我們這兩天委員都在關心我們軍事院校的硬體設備真的啦要給授訓的官兵好一點的銀色你才能招到好的人嘛"},{"start":12950.116,"end":12965.019,"text":"當年我們都已經有共識也做成決議了怎麼到現在3年都還沒動我們內部整修有做但是那個整建案的時候你們連體育場打乒乓球的那個以腳的右後方有個洞用後置板塞我去看的時候看到有個洞那邊還在打乒乓球"},{"start":12971.192,"end":12997.833,"text":"後來我們是說要蓋新的銀色你們還規劃了兩棟嘛因為預算那時候有做有啊有預算啊後來怎麼沒有執行那個年度也向後調整就往後調整調整到什麼時候107年不要老是把基層軍官的需求挪到最後面去啦你們那個時程拜託回復一下因為當年我印象三年多前的案子"},{"start":13000.337,"end":13008.441,"text":"回個文到我那邊因為你們後來沒有進行也沒有回報好不好來我們先處理這個484到490案484案同意照列485案同意照列486案凍結500萬書面報告後時的凍支487案"},{"start":13023.747,"end":13031.074,"text":"簡列100萬並送組決議（科目自行調整488案同意照列489案凍結20萬書面報告後使得凍支490案同意照列"},{"start":13039.701,"end":13061.041,"text":"接下來是491案請說明第491案是等一下我們沒有針對那個稍微說一下因為有一些我讓他照列可是他的教育資源分配啦剛剛有提到了然後另外在487的地方因為我們檢列100然後有提組決議嘛因為"},{"start":13063.73,"end":13081.92,"text":"主要是游泳池的部分需要8位救生員目前只有2位救生員其實他是硬性規定的尤其在學校裡面他的安全性非常重要所以已經4年了他都沒有辦法找出相關的編制人員其實如果在我們的質疑全國軍裡面"},{"start":13085.982,"end":13086.882,"text":"主要是在游泳池的這個部分"},{"start":13111.49,"end":13111.811,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13121.488,"end":13122.829,"text":"第491案為徐曉清委員關心本校太陽光電標註案"},{"start":13146.95,"end":13158.998,"text":"廠商違規使用錄製設備未回報案感謝委員的指導本案已向委員提供完整的資料而且事成實質人員並與廠商終止契約這邊建議委員同意下修凍結預算數10%並向委員會提出素面報告後使得凍資恭請委員指導來提案委員請"},{"start":13169.565,"end":13170.626,"text":"6月27日媒體說了在光電設備裡面有大陸逆變器等等就是大陸製品嘛"},{"start":13190.925,"end":13194.867,"text":"然後呢你們就說這個逆變器是台灣製造而且有產地證明然後呢7月1號你們去因為他一直講說整個光電的案子然後呢你們7月1號的時候才去清查就是整個光電案子然後你們說發現裡面有路由器跟工業電腦等設備你說雖為台灣品牌但機體標註為中國製"},{"start":13214.978,"end":13216.94,"text":"在7月2日軍備局正式含文各單位清查所設置的光電系統有沒有大陸製品並且正式據文回覆的時候"},{"start":13241.698,"end":13245.059,"text":"本校工程官因為7月2日早上就已經拆除所以7月5日一現況含附軍備局說校園並無錄製設備我不曉得各位委員聽到這個能不能接受這樣子的一個回覆你自己從6月27日知道這件事之後然後開始查查查就是有貼牌的就是有中國製的"},{"start":13264.284,"end":13267.226,"text":"結果軍備局發韓文他沒發那麼快他發給你發到你的時候你拆掉你就回復他說我們校區沒有使用我覺得這樣不對所以7月5日回復這個沒有錄製品事成半人的誤知誤解"},{"start":13282.577,"end":13290.441,"text":"所以我想要問你們對清查的時間定義是什麼然後呢再來你們後面告訴我說後續處置是要求限期權數拆除相關裝備還有返還不動產國有之不動產使用權那還想問說那會不會還有哪些地方是還沒有去處理的或怎麼樣這個是想要詢問喔好那所以說我這裡預算的部分呢那我建議下修這個稍微那凍結預算200萬元"},{"start":13314.572,"end":13326.698,"text":"請問教育長你這變了兩件事情一個是用了中國製品一個是請你調查了亂回答一通這是兩件事情那我第一個問題是你們懲處是怎麼懲處"},{"start":13328.439,"end":13348.776,"text":"我把我們陳曼仁跟他業館的主管都有懲處到怎麼懲處?記過陳曼仁記過一次副處長申屆兩次 處長申屆一次第二個我們的軍品這有沒有列在我們那個軍品不可以用中國製品的那個三年以下有期徒刑的"},{"start":13352.315,"end":13352.555,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13377.148,"end":13398.172,"text":"當時啟動要求調查之後第一時間回覆說都沒有我們都沒有這種回覆太草率你這樣會讓我們對你們的調查報告沒有信心嘛我們都採取信任原則軍方調查我們就接受可如果你讓我抓到一次你的調查報告跟結果根本是相反的以後你調查報告怎麼相信所以這個部分也要有懲處的記錄出來那個學員這樣OK啦好我們491案凍結200萬"},{"start":13404.433,"end":13432.812,"text":"書面報告後經同意時的動資書面報告內容請涵蓋委員提案或委員在委員會上的這個口頭詢問的內容好來492案請說明第492案為馬文君委員關心本校慈安六村及慈安八村植物宿舍修繕工程預算提出指導感謝委員的指導本案向委員說明已經經同意免於刪減及凍結預算照列恭喜委員指導來馬委員"},{"start":13434.253,"end":13434.273,"text":"第……"},{"start":13445.376,"end":13459.863,"text":"第493案為陳冠廷委員針對本校辦理模式模擬專精班等班隊向下一班事務費預算便利提出指導感謝委員的指導本案已經向委員說明然後經同意下修為凍結20萬元並向委員會提出順便報告後使得凍資恭請委員指導來陳委員"},{"start":13465.126,"end":13486.774,"text":"我跟在溝通的時候有特別強調說你們的這個兵棋推演不要就是關起門來自己做希望可以跟國內外的一些安全查和可以的事故合作然後第二個就是說很多CSIS的兵棋推演他一出去就是一個國際重大新聞甚至可以成為輿論的導向我們的兵棋推演都是關起門來自己做我覺得很可惜有的時候我們可以傳達一些訊息這個部分"},{"start":13489.335,"end":13513.034,"text":"再請何主席動機20萬順便報告後使得動之就是兵器推演如果是我們像漢光的當然我們就不會對外了那如果是學校或者科研或者是智庫機構的其實兵器推演的結果在不影響機敏國家利益的情形下適度的展現也是必要我另外請教那個宣普副部長以前我們進山洞就漢光進山洞會抓一些"},{"start":13514.838,"end":13520.45,"text":"會請一些部長進去有沒有我印象還有曾經把立委請進去過的你們現在沒有這個了嗎"},{"start":13523.527,"end":13551.485,"text":"不是,10年來都沒有啊我們這裡有人被請到山洞裡面去過好像沒有啦當然要請別人我是沒興趣進去要好幾天好,這個我是問一下就是你們在做兵推啦相關的部分的時候有時候會把相關部會啦能支援動員的人會在裡面有個工作台會在裡面啦我印象以前有找過國會議員後來都沒有了你們我覺得這個趙偉講得非常好我認為說我們是民選的代表"},{"start":13552.345,"end":13552.645,"text":"494案請說明"},{"start":13569.941,"end":13581.408,"text":"第494案為馬文君委員關心本校車輛及辦公器具養護費預算編列提供指導感謝委員的指導本案已經向委員說明今同一名於三節預算照列恭喜委員指導來馬委員"},{"start":13584.138,"end":13587.921,"text":"第495案及496案（為環能委員及馬文俊委員（共同關心本校後勤補給資源科目向下"},{"start":13601.813,"end":13627.11,"text":"雜項設備費預算編列提出指導其中第495案為環燈委員關心本校對相關設備進行汰換汰換需求是否必要如此頻繁上代說明凍結後勤補給支援雜項設備費十分之一兩個月內提出順便報告後使得動之第496案為馬文君委員關心本校後勤補給支援雜項設備費案內兩校區需汰換之設備項目數量不明"},{"start":13631.333,"end":13637.877,"text":"委員該檢列300萬元並凍結300萬元（3個月內提出說明報告並經同意後（使得凍資感謝委員的指導本案已經向委員做過說明敬請委員同意495案及496案並按凍結預算數10%並向委員會提出說明報告後（使得凍資恭請委員指導來歡迎委員請"},{"start":13656.003,"end":13673,"text":"關於這個設備的一個汰換超過使用年限以不堪使用的存有這個差距根據說明是以使用年限為汰換依據建議應該確實盤點設備的汰換的必要性好不好好現在委員知道"},{"start":13673.641,"end":13673.661,"text":"瑪瑋媛議員"},{"start":13692.89,"end":13693.991,"text":"495-496案以黃人委員的提案為主題案並案凍結10%書面報告後使得凍支497案請說明"},{"start":13718.843,"end":13728.631,"text":"第497案為馬文君委員關心本校載人公務車籌補案提出指導感謝委員的指導本案已經向委員說明敬請同意凍結100萬元並向委員會提出說明報告後使得凍結他本來要讓你過的樣子他本來要同意照列"},{"start":13741.981,"end":13746.706,"text":"同意教練因為這個我們前面有講因為你像學校他明明就需要大客車那你給他1.75噸的客貨車這個事情我一直覺得很好奇你要買20人坐的或買大客車我給你一個5人坐的小客車這怎麼結案啊你要載什麼貨你明明是要就你的需求跟購買東西要對起來嘛你不能說買不到大的換個小的這個"},{"start":13766.904,"end":13773.289,"text":"不過這是陸軍統建的啦那就是買了以後你本來報的需求給你的不一樣的對啊好我看這個謝謝委員啦同意照列497案同意照列498案也是馬文俊委員關心本校環保設施維護會的一般事務費預算便利提供指導感謝委員的指導已經向委員說明然後同意免於刪減預算照列恭喜委員指導"},{"start":13796.165,"end":13819.672,"text":"這個部分因為預算是學校用的所以我們同意照列可是也藉這個機會我們要特別提出來就是三軍官校平常大概是由我們的司令部他會編相關的預算在校舍還有一些教學設施上面去做更新可是我們看到國防大學他下屬的不管是理工學院管理學院還有政戰學院好像就比較沒有受到關愛的眼神"},{"start":13824.793,"end":13849.35,"text":"因為我們之前看到很多的照片他有些不管是教具也好或者是設備也好或者甚至硬體也好其實都非常的老舊而且不是老舊是破舊那個很難讓人家相信說那是學校我們的同仁在從官校畢業他30年前外觀從頭沒有改變"},{"start":13850.211,"end":13861.983,"text":"他在30年後回去的時候他沒有改變所以我們希望這個部分從國防部因為國防部也應該要給國防大學就是相關的預算經費在這個部分因為為什麼我們是這個例子這一次還好我們的中正理工學院要辦活動"},{"start":13871.753,"end":13877.675,"text":"所以就發現它裡面堆了一些樹枝啊、垃圾啊（堆了一大堆（堆在中正理工學院裡面（因為它沒有預算可以去執行（那些來源是什麼（三年前的颱風造成很多的樹枝的（你確定他們不是要做堆肥"},{"start":13894.485,"end":13895.606,"text":"在這裡我們從他的軟硬體還有像這個案例我們都可以發現這個部分我們對學校如果我們要招生你像現在這樣子的一個條件"},{"start":13914.019,"end":13914.179,"text":"498案,謝謝馬委員同意照列"},{"start":13944.735,"end":13955.707,"text":"我還是提醒國防大學就是說我知道我們的軍方的資源的排序學校永遠排在最後面可是這些來讀書的都是我們基層的軍官"},{"start":13958.287,"end":13986.453,"text":"對基層軍官好人才才會好然後未來他才會茁壯所以你像理工學院其實招生我比較不擔心因為你們跟交大並聯那時候我處理了讓你們在軍中用理工學院的文品畢業之後變交通大學的這是一個那個已經好幾年了那個就是把我們的位階提升到跟交大我一個軍校出來的我就是跟交大同等級這個才有尊榮感也有實用感那其他的國管院什麼我們那時候推跟台北大學等等"},{"start":13987.073,"end":13987.293,"text":"主席"},{"start":14008.635,"end":14028.712,"text":"官校是我們軍官的搖籃不要老是把它排最後面每一個重要的將領都是從基層的位級軍官長大的我們自己都當過少尉、中尉過基層軍官越重視他國家才會強好不好這個同意趙烈陳冠廷委員議長所以趙你當初在國防外交委員會你去推動這一個跟江南大學"},{"start":14029.752,"end":14045.98,"text":"當時理工學院已經不見了我是把他們的文憑又恢復回來然後又推台北大學跟國管院但後來案走到一半啦就是說並聯學位置教育部都已經同意我覺得你們要繼續推下去啦所以我是國管院我是政院我是法律系畢業的我在軍中用"},{"start":14047.281,"end":14047.721,"text":"中央政府總預算案"},{"start":14063.951,"end":14064.552,"text":"接下來來處理中正裕孝"},{"start":14089.706,"end":14095.539,"text":"499-501各位我們是不是處理到中正預效結束參謀本部我們就留待下午再開始處理"},{"start":14098.728,"end":14119.098,"text":"中正育校499-501請說明張偉各位委員好中正育校報告499-501案為後勤補給支援案為徐曉新委員、林楚英委員、羅美英委員共同關切本校對伙食危害廠商管理的機合疏失提案做指導"},{"start":14120.058,"end":14137.742,"text":"前一項委員辦公室親自報告及遞交資料499案建請委員同意預算遭列改列主決議第500案已獲林楚瑩委員同意改列為主決議第501案已獲羅美琳委員同意改列主決議以上三案恭請委員指導來請提案委員徐委員"},{"start":14140.043,"end":14154.678,"text":"我改組決議然後呢我要特別講一下就是呢這個這個中正預效的回復呢可以說是非常好的他們在就是說針對上一次的這個中正預效的食物中毒事件那他們整個的這個勤務作業的修正辦法裡面包含"},{"start":14161.364,"end":14165.286,"text":"新增指揮官及大隊長5人（增加指揮官12人（督導部分5人（每週定期（火防衛生暫時督導每週增加"},{"start":14176.65,"end":14201.813,"text":"2至3次總餐廳每週本來增加7次然後火防衛生環境也增加1至2次然後上下半年的監處講習從2次增加到4次然後也新增12次的案例研討及教育訓練打掃的部分每個月新增2次火防停止作業兩天的時候進行全面的消毒及清潔"},{"start":14202.674,"end":14219.727,"text":"那我覺得呢為什麼我要特別講這是在鼓勵我們所有國防部的同仁就當我們在審查預算的時候那如果你們可以針對這些過去缺失不管是上了新聞或什麼樣的那你能夠做這麼好的精進修正讓我們的學生不要再發揮這樣的事情我覺得我有責任把你們給我的這個精進作業報告寫得這麼好那講出來讓大家都知道所以特別針對這個修正的部分我是感到非常滿意的"},{"start":14231.576,"end":14243.783,"text":"所以我直接改為主決議那我主決議的部分也會提到我們對於這個修正案你們是有精進作為那我們是覺得非常認同好 謝謝林楚英委員"},{"start":14244.859,"end":14270.949,"text":"同樣的也是就是在你們的報告裡面除了剛剛徐巧欣委員所提到的部分之外包括還有協助後續的像是保險理賠等等那因為我們也知道如果一旦凍結了反而是會影響到你們委外招標這樣子反而品質會變得更差所以這也是我們決定就是以主決議的方式那麼希望不要再發生這樣的意外因為通常意外發生絕對不是只有這樣的一個狀況一定是過去累積下來才會上新聞"},{"start":14273.971,"end":14275.032,"text":"499案到501案預算照列那三位都改為主決議那陳校長陳少將的報告獲得讚賞本席樂見就是你們報告做得好委員誇獎"},{"start":14302.414,"end":14310.422,"text":"還附帶預算照列這是一個好的發展所以你可以中間就要開一個班叫做如何寫報告好不好但我要請教你你們現在國中部停辦嗎因為你們是在我們第9屆的時候恢復的那為什麼要停辦這樣也沒有回答啊你這樣的回答就是推給徐彥甫你們的綜合考量是什麼"},{"start":14328.274,"end":14337.468,"text":"就是說我印象我們第9屆的時候那時候轟轟烈烈說恢復辦然後還編了生活補助費什麼什麼我還要叫我兒子去讀欸你們現在停辦了你們招生有困難嗎"},{"start":14343.908,"end":14346.589,"text":"三軍官校正期班的招生人數應該還要再往上跳基層的排長經過四年的官校的訓練出來"},{"start":14362.534,"end":14377.189,"text":"我坦白說這個是重要的骨幹你人數我也說到一個程度對於將來不管是營長旅長帶聯兵營下面的排長我是建議國防部思考一下在三軍官校品質不能下降人數上要思考調整"},{"start":14378.37,"end":14381.452,"text":"12時29分42秒12時30分中午休息一個小時1點半恢復開會從參謀本部開始進行下午我們所屬單位處理完會宣讀"},{"start":14395.17,"end":14419.044,"text":"請各位主決議還沒有擬出來的趕快送過來要宣讀宣讀完處理主決議主決議處理完有關機密預算未達共識的第二輪先處理到時候會清場那機密預算二輪處理完會處理公開預算的二輪那請各業管單位如果能夠溝通的趕快去溝通我們希望再進入第二輪的越少越好我們現在休息待會恢復開會"},{"start":18009.327,"end":18037.177,"text":"時間是1點30分我們恢復開會現在來進行參謀本部的502案到505案我先講一下我們今天下午的會議程順便等委員都陸續到期我們今天下午先把國防部所屬審完審完之後會宣讀主決議所以主決議有要提案的委員趕快儘速提出宣讀完處理主決議"},{"start":18038.277,"end":18066.732,"text":"主決議如果待協調的請我們各業管單位跟提案委員溝通要修改文字我們在宣讀的時候要修改完成那主決議處理完之後我們就要處理機密預算的第二輪部分部的預算部分部的預算處理完處理機密預算第二輪機密預算第二輪處理完處理公開預算的第二輪同樣進入第二輪的如果能夠再溝通一下"},{"start":18067.512,"end":18091.474,"text":"能夠達成協議目前已經有兩三案達成協議了我們盡量減少在沒有共識的第二輪我還是希望在我們的委員會充分討論意見表達立場表達清楚之後盡量以共識決來處理那如果真的沒有辦法我們到第二輪其實該講的話都講完了啦我們到第二輪可能就是來盡快的處理好陸續都到了嘛"},{"start":18093.564,"end":18114.866,"text":"好 那我們部長那個 消假回來上班好 呵呵呵 好走吧 那個徐小興委員說那個顧立雄部長不在的時候超順的我看你再請兩個小時假 呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":18117.046,"end":18129.524,"text":"因為一開始參謀本部第一個案有沈伯陽有黃仁有羅美玲委員是不是請黨團助理催一下他們我開始可以等一下就盡量大家都在好不好"},{"start":18137.715,"end":18146.778,"text":"502案沈博洋委員改組決議待會參謀本部就不用再說明了然後黃仁委員有沒有改我印象他好像有喔看一下他是100萬減為50萬他減50嗎是動50動50動50好來我們502到505請說明"},{"start":18157.588,"end":18178.416,"text":"各位委員好,502案委沈博洋委員他關切在中國就學異難還有中國籍的異難是否在入伍之後有完整的應對規範那這個部分我們已經跟委員辦公室提供完整的資料以及說明經委員同意改列為主決議並在兩個月之內提出書面報告請委員指導"},{"start":18185.167,"end":18201.5,"text":"503到505案分別由黃展委員、羅美玲委員以及王定委員共同關心戰鬥部隊邊線比低於八成的議題這個部分我們分別跟委員說明之後其中黃展委員同意改"},{"start":18202.381,"end":18208.069,"text":"凍結100萬減到50萬（羅美玲委員是同意並召委提案決議辦理召委這邊是從200萬下修為凍結100萬元我們建請同意"},{"start":18220.486,"end":18236.459,"text":"凍結100萬元三個月內提出書面報告我不要三個月內因為什麼時候解凍要在立法院開會期間我說我剛一直沒有押日期解凍的排審是召委的權利而且沒有開議期間根本不能排審502505如果沒有特別要隨循的我來做預算處理502案改組決議503案凍結50萬書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":18249.705,"end":18255.631,"text":"504案凍結50萬書面報告後時的凍支505案凍結50萬書面報告後時的凍支好接下來處理506案陳永康委員的提案來請說明"},{"start":18270.466,"end":18287.371,"text":"第506案是陳永康委員關切有關於共同作戰圖像的建置還有運用作法謝謝委員的指導本案也向委員說明了建請同意凍結50萬並向委員會提出書面報告以後使得動之陳委員我們同意凍結數字減到50萬"},{"start":18290.112,"end":18306.166,"text":"但是順便報告當然你那個有些技術上的問題你歡迎來討論因為希望加快JCAP的進程因為M142要交貨了那如果還是用陸軍的UTM圖跟未來海軍的機動的這個說魚叉飛彈"},{"start":18309.403,"end":18320.633,"text":"路海軍對目標的辨識跟共同的分配需要透過這個JACOB506案凍結50萬書面報告後使得凍資書面報告請涵蓋這些要完成的時程好不好這個曾委員關心很久了來507案507案不用講教練通過"},{"start":18332.884,"end":18337.327,"text":"我舉一個例子就是說一切的根本是培養人才我們國防經費在增加如果只是聚焦在硬體的裝備"},{"start":18362.182,"end":18384.677,"text":"在人才的培育上面產生落差的話實際上這武器效益不容易發揮我舉例美國給我們這麼多先進裝備不管是陸軍空軍海軍你去受訓的時候你拿到的操作手冊準則教範全部是英文的你回來不能說等待翻譯版所以在過程中間英文要變成你的善用的工具"},{"start":18385.738,"end":18397.525,"text":"另外,教材及課程內容要更新。現在AI技術是一個工具,但在我們運用上好像還沒有普及,人人都會講AI。"},{"start":18398.578,"end":18427.419,"text":"比方來講我們常常講我們掌握敵情透過聯合情監偵後面來加一個諸般手段你有手段你有目的但你沒有方法你的方法是什麼呢透過共同圖像不只是情報的你包括軍情局的電產式的我們涵蓋的範圍是遠超過臺灣的周遭那這個樣子做的資訊匯集才能支持長官正確的決策判斷所以在教育經費上我們要加倍"},{"start":18429.329,"end":18442.364,"text":"大陸北京大學的教育經費年度經費是台大的6倍台大是我們國防大學的5倍你想想看我們如果不加快腳步這是不行的好謝謝陳永康委員508案改組決議來509案請說明"},{"start":18448.806,"end":18452.668,"text":"是509萬為馬文君委員關切針對駐美團動員整備的相關業務那謝謝委員的指導我們本案也向馬委員說明那建請簡列100萬並向委員會提出書面報告以後使得動之來馬委員"},{"start":18467.928,"end":18483.693,"text":"這一個部分因為我們看到有這樣的人員那國軍的大案子在住處通常也都只有他專案通常也都只有一個那一次派了三個像退府會這麼大"},{"start":18485.293,"end":18500.494,"text":"的團體組織其實大概也是兩人所以這個部分我們希望他提一個書面報告那權動署其實在這些交流的就派出在外面還有他整個交流跟所有"},{"start":18501.274,"end":18501.454,"text":"是我們先（好"},{"start":18526.229,"end":18526.329,"text":"510-513案請說明"},{"start":18548.59,"end":18569.039,"text":"委員好510到513案分別由陳永康委員以及馬文君委員對於作戰綜合作業的預算來提案指導其中510及511案為陳永康委員關心我們共同作戰圖像建置及運用以及M1A2戰車作戰運用還有機動部署的狀況"},{"start":18572.641,"end":18598.588,"text":"五百一十二及五百一十三案為馬文君委員所關心的我們執行人員的這屆值班夜點費還有漢光演習的一個整體規劃以上四案都已經向委員辦公室來說明以及提供相關的資料建請委員同意五百一十案下修為凍結五十萬提出書面報告之後使得凍值五百一十一及五百一十三案預算照列"},{"start":18599.568,"end":18604.934,"text":"512案是馬文君委員關心國軍官兵夜點費由114年1月1日從60塊調整到100塊國防部有關預算的來源這部分我利用這個時間要特別感謝馬委員以及王定宇召委分別在今年的6月跟10月之間有推行過這樣的一個議題"},{"start":18623.372,"end":18645.409,"text":"本部也很重視所以我們在今年的7月就提出相關的調整的規劃並報告行政院行政院在7月份提出然後行政院在8月底的時候合併因為合併的時間已經過了預算已經合併了所以我們來不及編到明年的預算當中但是我們會去檢討明年的預算"},{"start":18646.71,"end":18646.73,"text":"（預算（"},{"start":18663.059,"end":18663.199,"text":"514、512、513案請說明"},{"start":18687.952,"end":18713.949,"text":"趙偉及各位委員好我是巡視室次長那接下來報告其中514案是馬文俊委員關切基本體能建設的系統維保預算編列還有我們這個我們相關的系統整併的一個議題那515案是黃仁委員關切自願意因為人數降低缺乏人員操作的議題"},{"start":18715.281,"end":18736.286,"text":"這兩案都分別感謝委員的指導也分別向委員說明建請五一四案馬委員能夠同意預算照列提出書面報告五一五案建請黃委員能夠同意凍結一百萬提出書面報告後時可凍支以上報告"},{"start":18739.846,"end":18756.357,"text":"馬委員預算我們統一照列不過要提一些相關的說明因為目前國軍志願役跟義務役現在都改成可以在單位駐地去測驗可是以前也是都要到監測中心主要是要防止舞弊現在"},{"start":18758.905,"end":18758.945,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":18777.847,"end":18796.622,"text":"建設中心其實會把志願役跟義務役這邊大概可以調到駐地去測驗很重要的因素大概兵太多然後也怕太累所以在建設的過程當中可能成績也不太好所以大概會有這樣的考量"},{"start":18797.383,"end":18797.643,"text":"區別成不容許舞弊"},{"start":18814.622,"end":18822.766,"text":"在一般的訓練上其實就會有軍官管理階層去控管這個大概也是在管理上的平衡514案同意照列515案黃榮委員100萬凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支接下來處理516到521案請說明516到521案是委員"},{"start":18840.173,"end":18864.782,"text":"關於通信電子跟資訊管理的預算561案為馬文君委員針對基層主管跟承辦人因業務聯繫自行購置手機然後提醒國防部應充分利用民間的資源避免官兵額外的負擔第517案也是馬文君委員關心本部編列高額的資訊服務費是否能夠有效的防止駭客入侵及官兵非法違規使用資訊設備"},{"start":18866.964,"end":18891.981,"text":"518案是陳永康委員關心共同作戰圖像建置與運用519案也是陳永康委員關心無人機產業的發展政策520案是林儲英委員關心應與速發部建立快速反應的綠色通道521案為徐曉新委員針對通知電產品位置源頭管制以增加抽樣集合的太陽強化資訊資產"},{"start":18893.629,"end":18904.213,"text":"（同籌管理（感謝各位委員的指導（各案前都已經到各委員辦公室提供完整的資料及說明（建請同意516到521案並案凍結5000萬（並向委員會提出書面報告後使得動之來那個林楚英委員好我這個提案的"},{"start":18918.612,"end":18941.177,"text":"好等一下再來處理預算數啦我先說明一下就是為什麼會提這個案子主要是說我們知道現在中共透過網路的平台來進行包括像對於我們又使我們國軍比如說提供一些情資包括他的手法有三個就是包括裸拍威脅還有剛剛我講到的低利貸款啊或者是高額的徵稿等等那我認為說國軍這個所謂的"},{"start":18943.317,"end":18960.215,"text":"私通電軍本來就應該要有資訊作戰的能力那麼面對中國這種敵軍直接已經侵害到我們國軍地修包括心防包括這個所謂泄密那我個人認為是在這個部分你們本來就要加強相關的能力好那我的提案的話是凍結10%啦"},{"start":18962.637,"end":18963.057,"text":"徐曉欣委員"},{"start":18983.234,"end":19007.849,"text":"因為我這邊的凍結理由跟大家比較不一樣所以我想我要特別提就是我先講一下預算數那我也可以同意下降到5000萬關於我們的通信電子相關裝備來說先前我們就有提到說你們的行車記錄器然後有用到大陸的貼牌"},{"start":19009.13,"end":19032.265,"text":"然後呢行車記錄信用到大陸貼牌那你們顯見你的自通電產品源頭的控管是不夠好的那你們回覆的時候呢講說為驗證各單位資訊設備管控執行成效本部已規劃運用各項督、輔導、實機材、定期或不定期的方式實施集合"},{"start":19032.805,"end":19038.787,"text":"那我提的這個就是錄製的貼牌行車紀錄器已經好久了第一個問題是後來你們總共查獲了幾件第二個問題是這個案發已經半年實際的實行狀況第三個就是說那你們到時候可能要回復我們的書面資料是那所謂什麼叫做"},{"start":19053.313,"end":19067.584,"text":"規劃運用各項督導、輔導、實機採定期或不定期方式實施集合在我看起來這段話有講跟沒講好像一樣所以麻煩到時候可以提出謝謝好來還有沒有其他委員來馬文俊委員"},{"start":19071.071,"end":19075.212,"text":"515的部分早上其實有提過就是我們全軍有9000多個門號民用的門號然後我們給門號"},{"start":19092.156,"end":19095.72,"text":"指給門號因為我們就接到有家長在反映他的孩子回去他還要求要買另外一支手機因為他必須有公務的需求他拿到門號也拿到一千塊的電話費"},{"start":19109.594,"end":19109.634,"text":"517資安軟體授權費"},{"start":19138.245,"end":19140.667,"text":"他有很多高階防火牆、博生專案、其實也做過非常多114年通次市就編了3億多光是一個連六花3億多用公費去買"},{"start":19153.494,"end":19161.381,"text":"這個部分主要是因為訴發部跟資安辦公室他把所有的相關部門政府機構還有行政單位他分了ABCDE的等級那你沒有要求一定要買最高級的在每一個等級每一級裡面他雖然有綠定一些項目可是沒有說多少錢"},{"start":19174.293,"end":19176.895,"text":"所以在每一個等級裡面他有最便宜的然後有最貴的國防部通常都是買最貴的啦所以像督察長是一個1985這樣子的電話就是1985專線的這個部分他也買到一百三十幾萬的防堵軟體"},{"start":19193.539,"end":19196.443,"text":"所以在國軍裡面的最外層算我們現在有支通電軍他花了很高額的預算他做了所有高級設備的全防護可是我們現在連6就編了3億多那其他的單位也要另外再編錢"},{"start":19208.922,"end":19212.385,"text":"你等於說好像在銀行裡面買了保險箱可是你又不相信你自己又買了一個保險箱放在銀行的保險箱裡面一樣的意思那你至少這個金額稍微要把它區隔開來比較機敏的你可以買比較好的我覺得這個就是把它的等級以外"},{"start":19228.937,"end":19229.137,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":19259.071,"end":19283.181,"text":"我來處理預算我建議不管是那個我們通知室或者是相關軍種像這樣的話大概上面要有一個去把它統籌然後按層次感來做處理否則會有感覺都重複在做這個事情那到底誰該買最高級的誰該買一般的因為我好奇你們那個是買所謂的防火軟體是買"},{"start":19284.341,"end":19308.214,"text":"他因為授權我們的不管是高階的防火牆和新的網路你不是自己設置而是去找買商買外面的對因為他都到12月31號截止然後所以我們的明年度的時候重新要再買對我們因為買商就買外面偽商的防火牆有一個缺點因為以前我們都覺得設置防火牆公司跟駭客是同一家公司"},{"start":19309.635,"end":19328.373,"text":"你會有這個風險所以如果我們有跟跨部會去了解說有一些防火牆我們能不能自己建制這個你們要去思考因為畢竟國防是大概所有需要慈安最高等的你們同意5000萬那就5000萬吧我來做一下分配先從數額少的馬委員你那個5000萬我來分配一下"},{"start":19335.746,"end":19344.889,"text":"徐曉新委員的521案凍結1000萬書面報告後使得凍資林楚英委員凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍資陳永康委員凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍資這樣子還有3800萬再來馬文君委員並案凍結3800萬書面報告後經同意使得凍資"},{"start":19363.176,"end":19364.317,"text":"512案至525案主要是陳永康委員及毛文清"},{"start":19382.268,"end":19396.559,"text":"馬文君委員共同關心財務本部軍事單位的裝備零附件的構置以及保修預算編列的情形以上四案均已致委員辦公室實施說明建請同意522案預算照列523案凍結100萬元524及525案各案凍結十分之一並向委員會提出書面報告後使得凍結以上報告供請委員指導"},{"start":19409.668,"end":19412.55,"text":"委員若沒有意見的話就照這樣通過了"},{"start":19436.823,"end":19443.534,"text":"五二三照列五二四動100然後五二四動10%五二五動10%然後順便報告經同意後時得動之沒錯啦"},{"start":19451.079,"end":19454.222,"text":"522兆列523案凍結100萬書面報告後10的凍支524案凍結10%525案凍結10%這兩案書面報告經統一後10的凍支"},{"start":19467.457,"end":19473.719,"text":"馬文君委員關切我們駐美團清潔人力所需的費用謝謝委員的指導我們也向委員報告過敬請同意預算照列馬委員"},{"start":19499.847,"end":19505.089,"text":"五百二十七案同意照列我們現在來處理軍情局的部分來軍情局從528案開始來請說明"},{"start":19513.206,"end":19517.307,"text":"第529及530案並案分別為馬文君委員及徐巧欣委員共同關心情報作戰指管系統維護的議題"},{"start":19540.155,"end":19563.702,"text":"簽以至委員辦公室說明並提供完整資料（建請同意併案凍結10%（提出書面報告後（使得動之（懇請委員指導我這邊軍情局的部分我都同意軍情局招募的成效回覆是說有超過200%是吧"},{"start":19565.482,"end":19565.883,"text":"112年的達成率202%"},{"start":19583.086,"end":19605.468,"text":"113年目標跟同年一樣所以我想要問一下就是說你們這達成率啊如果這麼高的話是不是你們的目標啊就也應該要提高否則的話那我每個單位我都把那個我的目標放很低那這樣的話我達成率就很高所以我是想要針對這個問題呢好到時候要說明了有一種叫TOYOTA豐田市管理每年要加上去的你懂不懂"},{"start":19606.349,"end":19629.509,"text":"報告委員其實我們是按照我們人員編制數跟不足數然後衡量近年內我們要培育的人才數來編列我們的招募的目標所以我們看到原本賦予的目標是這樣但是我們自己不足之後我們把自己提升到比如說200%就是依據我們自己本身的需求200是你們自己提高然後最後達標"},{"start":19630.79,"end":19644.759,"text":"以後設定目標就科學一點因為你們設定的數額會牽涉到訓練的成本各方面的成本所以你如果設定低你其他成本就會偏低其實這個也跟我們人員離退會有關係我們人員離退我們需要補充的時候我們就會把目標數再提高這個部分我們提案主要是因為"},{"start":19655.984,"end":19682.924,"text":"一年大概編了4800多萬那都是授權費那主要是像情報作戰指管系統維護的這個部分過去我們是建在機密案可是你現在用公開預算因為在109到113年的公開預算書裡面軍情局並沒有這個系統的建案所以他之前你如果是用機密案那你現在用公開的預算是否要先解密"},{"start":19683.724,"end":19713.173,"text":"不然你現在因為他也還沒到他解密的年限可是你又是用在公開的那你這個機型數量有沒有辦法反推他的功能等等就是這個部分我們一直不知道說因為我們一直以來大概對這個都會比較重視嘛那會有沒有可能被有心人士去掌握這個是我們希望軍情局可以稍微做一下說明的部分"},{"start":19713.533,"end":19719.359,"text":"好來529530案並案凍結10%以徐曉新委員的533為主提案書面報告經同意後使得凍支來接下來531案你先不要講話先讓徐曉新委員看一下"},{"start":19731.044,"end":19731.064,"text":"529530案"},{"start":19760.964,"end":19761.504,"text":"531案同意照列532案請說明"},{"start":19785.299,"end":19800.428,"text":"第532萬案為馬文君委員關心本局軍事醫療作業預算編列的議題簽一致委員辦公室說明提供完整資料現請同意預算照列肯請委員指導同意照列好532同意照列現在處理533到538案請說明"},{"start":19805.991,"end":19828.377,"text":"第533至538案分別為徐巧欣、黃仁及馬文君委員關心本局室內靶場、體育館及游泳池整修的議題前一致委員辦公室說明提供完整資料其中黃仁委員同意第535案改列組決議於各案建請同意預算照列好"},{"start":19831.438,"end":19836.665,"text":"黃元委員的535案改組決議預算同意照列其他委員是不是同意照列"},{"start":19840.083,"end":19858.132,"text":"1536和538都同意照列不過因為這個主要是體育館還有游泳池的整修我們看提供的照片現況是舊了然後也應該要修可是我們看那個估價好像都偏高所以這個部分還是可能要稍微留意一下"},{"start":19862.536,"end":19881.633,"text":"533案到538案預算同意照列其中535案改組決議539案請說明第539案為馬文君委員關心本局植物宿舍整修議題簽一致委員辦公室說明提供完整資料建請同意預算照列懇請委員指導馬委員"},{"start":19886.536,"end":19898.082,"text":"這個同意照列不過因為每年好像每年都有提出這個預算每年修都修不完是不是應該要整體規劃大概要怎麼樣他們的房子其實真的是每年在修不是就要把它全部把它盤整出來就像你有些銀色你應該哪些需要整修的你應該要怎麼樣提計劃去整修而不是你一年提這些體育項目的會員的那"},{"start":19913.709,"end":19913.869,"text":"540案到541案"},{"start":19931.669,"end":19939.914,"text":"來請說明第540及第541案並案前一支委員辦公室說明提供完整資料建議同意並案凍結200萬元提出書面報告後使得凍結來提案委員來來"},{"start":19947.574,"end":19949.154,"text":"540541馬委員我是動200因為這個部分主要是像我們的骨幹傳輸網路設備維護的這個部分通常都直通電軍在做而且他們也做得比較完整了那現在我們質疑又要做那是什麼原因要怎麼做做什麼這個部分我們也希望稍微說明清楚"},{"start":19975.922,"end":19985.066,"text":"兩案並案凍結兩百萬元以馬文君委員的540案為主提案書面報告經同意後使得凍結再來542到543案請說明"},{"start":19994.351,"end":20011.2,"text":"第542及543案並案分別為馬文君委員及徐巧欣委員共同關心本局後勤補給支援陣營具採購的議題請一致委員辦公室說明並提供完整的資料 建請同意預算照列 懇請委員指導"},{"start":20013.649,"end":20038.809,"text":"好所以預算書同一套列沒有沒有沒有那個這個我要特別講一下吼你們的這個經費啊就是你們這個543嘛後勤及通資業務然後你們提給我們的關於辦理營具汰換冷暖器什麼什麼配置什麼什麼的我們都支持你們能夠去購置可是你們的那個"},{"start":20040.13,"end":20058.267,"text":"軍情局的設備的這個最低主計總處說公告最低的使用年限那比方說辦公室的最低使用年限是兩年高活動櫃的最低使用年限是六年然後你都說已經超過要換了"},{"start":20059.088,"end":20069.092,"text":"保密貴跟公文貴你都寫6年然後都說呢已經超過使用年限要換了然後呢台燈是一年我不曉得是什麼燈那麼爛的一年然後你說7萬5要花這個錢電風扇的我不知道大家有沒有吹過電風扇但是電風扇的"},{"start":20078.755,"end":20092.306,"text":"使用年限是5年然後呢你說已經超過了所以你要花5萬塊去使用冰箱喔使用年限8年我又不太確定是不是這樣子除濕機5年脫水機5年電動訂書機你們買了蠻多的這個是4年飲水機"},{"start":20101.252,"end":20114.211,"text":"銀水機60萬元你說超過使用年限可是你的使用年限是這個3年銀水機使用年限是3年嗎那剩下有一些也根本就沒有提供所以我我我"},{"start":20115.413,"end":20138.675,"text":"你從烘衣機、電風扇、除濕機跟脫水機這幾樣都是剛過最低使用年限就要換那我要講你那個剛過電最低使用年限的都是5年但是跟我們一般人的認知完全不一樣欸就是說有這麼容易壞嗎我覺得是不是我們還是要尊潔一點啊這可不可以先說明一下"},{"start":20141.899,"end":20164.284,"text":"你現在指的是你們所有的三方處所嗎?對,我們所有的你們有的是在有硫磺的區域,有的是沒有嗎?對,都有如果是因為地質特別,也可以讓委員知道一下是第一要跟委員報告,所有使用年限我們是按照行政院主席總署他所規範的財務標準分類來按照這個規範來使用年限來規範,不是我們自己局裡面去訂的"},{"start":20165.084,"end":20191.425,"text":"第2個我們有把購置的年度有跟委員們把資料提供給您那我們使用的其實上面都有寫有的是100年、102年那我們只是告訴你我們已經超過這個6年或2年或幾年事實上已經都是好幾10年前或好幾年前就已經該換那我們現在逐年逐年有經費我們才一筆一筆所以你標示的年限不是他購置年限是過期年限對所以我剛剛有特別講對我剛剛有特別講"},{"start":20192.717,"end":20216.626,"text":"我剛剛有特別講說就是烘衣機、電風扇、除濕機跟脫水機它都是在剛過最低使用年限就汰換的這幾樣所以我不是說你每一個都不行這個就是使用年限的部分我是說使用年限它是給你一個最低的參考但是大家是不是要遵截一下預算就是說你說你的烘衣機喔好我就講烘衣機你是什麼"},{"start":20217.546,"end":20237.81,"text":"你購置年度是106到107年那你呢說要這個使用年限是5年所以你就要換了然後你要買6台電風扇嘛好電風扇是你105年到107年買的然後你現在跟我說呢你要再買20台他的使用年限是5年然後呢除濕機呢你說你要買10台那你購置的時間點先前是106到108年就是超過5年就要換"},{"start":20245.111,"end":20259.384,"text":"拖水機呢108年才買的然後呢現在要買6台也才過5年光是這四項我就覺得有一點誇張啊我不曉得你們其他大家委員覺得怎麼樣那個媽委員有沒有要詢問的來那個崔永康委員"},{"start":20266.05,"end":20266.63,"text":"我們是不是這個就給他動10%?"},{"start":20280.888,"end":20281.148,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":20306.147,"end":20321.885,"text":"我配合徐委員的啦然後還要這樣好不好我們就凍結我們凍結10%啦然後書面報告你書面報告呈現的就是很簡單一個道理看了覺得你應該換了解你知道就當作自己家一樣這東西看了你應該換"},{"start":20323.827,"end":20324.247,"text":"我檢列你50萬好不好"},{"start":20352.782,"end":20354.963,"text":"許曉清委員提案為主提案簡列50萬科目執行調整凍結50萬書面報告經同意後時的凍支"},{"start":20371.03,"end":20389.935,"text":"五百四十四案黃源委員改組決議五百四十五案我照列同意照列各位我們現在要處理組決議因為組決議總共有42案我們現在增加了我們原來是五四六到五四九"},{"start":20390.655,"end":20410.402,"text":"現在增加550案到591案的主決議增加了42案所以我們要進行宣讀宣讀時間大概15分鐘吧差不多了我們進行宣讀宣讀期間各不管行政部門或我們立院同仁可以自行離席我們待會再恢復開會好請開始宣讀"},{"start":20413.649,"end":20419.713,"text":"第550案、114年度國防部所屬預算案政治作戰局稅入第7款"},{"start":20421.758,"end":20447.723,"text":"其他收入向下第88項國防部所屬第二目雜項收入其他雜項收入國軍老舊眷村改建基金不適用營地周轉金繳庫數編列預算10億元為爭域國庫收入請持續創造基金收益辦理不適用營地周轉金還款作業必有利於活化眷地提案人委員陳冠廷等人"},{"start":20449.5,"end":20470.226,"text":"第551案國家中山科學研究院承攬國防部多項工程及研究案並負責多項軍事投資建案但予發生瑕疵或進度嚴大原請國防部應要求中山科學研究院擅進專案督管之責任提案人委員陳冠廷等人"},{"start":20471.581,"end":20492.127,"text":"第552案（國軍近年軍紀事件頻傳（更有257旅爆發新兵毆打安全事關醜聞（陸軍應持續提升多元教育管道及法治教育時機（以提升官兵守法之觀念（提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":20493.444,"end":20512.114,"text":"第553案（建議國防部與114年配合春秋祭典（八二山或古林頭追屍祭典（典禮等時機（將福建反共救國軍訓指人員納入祭祀儀程內（提案委員沈伯陽等人"},{"start":20513.803,"end":20518.105,"text":"第554案陸軍司令部辦理也營裝備採購114至116年度採購22個營級單位執行教育召集訓練所需也營催聚編列8451萬1千元案內購置數位迷彩帳篷等項請陸軍一應據"},{"start":20539.696,"end":20565.294,"text":"部隊所需將也迎裝具納入兵裝修訂貨建立配附基準以提升部隊作戰之韌性提案人為馬文君等人第555案114年度國防部所屬預算案陸軍司令部與第五幕一般裝備向下採購及外購軍品作業中業務費一般數費兵列605萬3千元"},{"start":20568.29,"end":20590.138,"text":"請國防部於6個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐巧欣等人第556案114年度國防部所屬預算案陸軍司令部於第8幕營建工程向下設備及投資之公共建設及設施預算編列12億2323萬9千元"},{"start":20594.98,"end":20604.087,"text":"依據預算中新資評估報告 112年底之累積預算數11億3927萬元（累積執行數4292萬元（執行率為3.77%（執行進度與國軍35項中軍事工程案理明顯落後（請國防部於6個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐巧欣等人"},{"start":20622.148,"end":20644.114,"text":"第557案114年度國防部所屬預算案海軍司令部第一幕向下業務費之運費辦理軍購及外購軍品海空運輸內陸運輸及接轉作業等所需運費編列預算八千三百七十三萬八千元國軍在採購任何相關產品時運費皆內含與該項產品費用對於經費多寡海軍司令部應與檢討及書明"},{"start":20651.856,"end":20665.062,"text":"請國防部於6個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐巧欣等人第558案之因國軍自殺、自傷人數不斷增加"},{"start":20666.677,"end":20682.592,"text":"請國防部針對新府機制重新評估並建立合理及完善之機制與環境保障國軍心理健康請國防部於3個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐巧欣等人"},{"start":20684.434,"end":20690.997,"text":"第559案國防部海軍司令部114年度教育訓練業務向下業務費之軍事裝備及設施編列預算7556萬元較113年度增加4996萬1千元主要為徵購對外軍事協商相關行政資源所需費用"},{"start":20708.024,"end":20715.102,"text":"因詳列實際需求項目預算編列及預化執行等內容提案人委員馬文君等人第560案"},{"start":20718.541,"end":20745.396,"text":"潛艦國造第二階段原型艦籌建至108年度簽約執行近113年度一計劃克正執行原型艦博港測試HAT中與114年度編列5億8495萬7千元原要求國防部以安全品質為首要考量是原型艦執行海上動態測試HAT時動資提案人委員陳永康等人"},{"start":20747.318,"end":20762.645,"text":"第561案114年度國防部所屬預算案第5目一般裝備編列海軍司令部快速部雷艇後續艇支計劃總經費18億6728000元114至116年度執行本年度編列預算7億8908萬元請國防部與三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐巧欣等人"},{"start":20778.291,"end":20805.06,"text":"第562案國防部應指導各工程主辦機關在不違反契約規範前提下依單位需求對各標案之契約管理應更具主導權請國防部研議針對未來專案管理契約範本提出修訂進行作為提案人委員林楚英等人第563案國軍清泉鋼基地防務機庫建構"},{"start":20808.991,"end":20834.896,"text":"原訪查傷情與預算規模（無法順利遭傷（空居委員與111年度（重新修訂清泉崗基地（36座防護機庫建構（可行性評估（將機保庫數調降為24座（現已順利招標並履行施工（人員因原作戰需求規劃（補足其他防護機庫之構建（提案人委員林毅君等人（"},{"start":20836.021,"end":20853.694,"text":"第564案（同563案之內容提案人為黃仁委員等人第565案（空軍岡山基地設施新建工程全案總經費39億4662萬4千元與113年度一施工進度爭取10億元之餘備金亦助支應"},{"start":20863.052,"end":20872.713,"text":"空軍應依全案和訂支金額與後續年度預算書表載民檢列11元預備金額度提案人委員馬文君等人"},{"start":20874.349,"end":20897.461,"text":"第566案憲兵指揮部所屬202指揮部負責束手總統府之委安然今年初噪聲執勤兵員智商擠稅事件且經媒體報導憲兵指揮部應針對憲兵第202指揮部束手總統府之211營優先補充兵員、體驗人委員馬文君等人第567案"},{"start":20901.577,"end":20923.494,"text":"憲兵指揮部動員整備狀況114年教召人受教113年增加為編列預算數卻減少恐發生預算編列不足以支應之情形憲兵指揮部應規定向國防部權動署申請預算支應提案委員馬文君等人第568案"},{"start":20926.122,"end":20950.579,"text":"114年度國防部所屬預算案自通電軍指揮部於第4幕業務費之資訊服務費辦理及控制防堵軟體授權桌上型電腦維護等經費預算編列8535萬8千元請國防部於2個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員黃仁等人第569案"},{"start":20954.316,"end":20976.689,"text":"根據國防部智庫國防安全研究院之調查發現有47.5%對國軍防衛能力有信心但也有47.9%較沒有信心顯示國人對國軍防衛能力之信心略有不足政治作戰局應強化國軍與國人心中具備保衛國土之形象提案人委員黃仁等人第570案"},{"start":20980.578,"end":21004.712,"text":"仍請軍醫局持續辦理高級外傷探查手術技術﹐ASSET課程及確定性外科創傷照護課程﹐DSTC提升國軍醫院對外科醫生手術之亮能提案人委員黃仁等人第571案權動署官網建制全民國防應變手冊專區"},{"start":21007.557,"end":21029.985,"text":"建請權動署人需會同有關部會加強宣導同時滾動修訂內容使民眾瞭解戰爭來臨時之準備提案人委員黃仁等人第572案114年度國防部所屬預算全民防衛動員署第三目向下業務費之通訊費辦理跨部會動員業務協調等經費預算編列1713萬8千元"},{"start":21037.449,"end":21052.967,"text":"國軍動員準備工作只基於平時應持續強化三軍常備後備部隊﹐完成各項人力、物力動員之準備﹐有效睡醒防衛作戰之任務﹐達成各項動員準備工作提案人委員黃仁等人"},{"start":21054.605,"end":21067.986,"text":"第573案建請國防部全民防衛動員署應就較早及訓練及動員事務持續精進以提升後備部隊整體之戰力提案人委員黃仁等人"},{"start":21069.315,"end":21083.755,"text":"第574案軍情局軍城營區訓練場域體育館整修一案請依規劃節點落實執行管制如期整修完成提案人委員黃仁等人第575案"},{"start":21087.307,"end":21092.993,"text":"請電訊發展室針對一般資訊及資訊站設備之結訊網路資訊設備及作業系統升級案妥適規劃後續設備籌劃及作業系統之升級已達成之安您信任目標提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":21105.492,"end":21134.017,"text":"第576頁114年度國防部所屬預算案政治作戰局第一幕業務費之辦理國軍心理健康照護方案委託代辦心理諮商輔導所需委辦費即388萬元援請國防部持續強化心理輔導專線接聽服務以協助官兵紓解心理疑難提案人委員徐巧欣等人"},{"start":21135.663,"end":21157.257,"text":"第577案有鑒於114年為抗戰勝利﹐80週年是為予以深遠之重要時刻鑒請政治作戰局明年積極演繹籌劃﹐抗戰勝利﹐80週年及九三軍人節﹐大型音樂會及一系列之活動以表彰國軍將士、報國之氣節﹐提案委員馬文軍等人第578案114年度軍備局第4幕"},{"start":21166.055,"end":21184.18,"text":"後勤綜合勤務中獎補助費之獎勵及慰問預算編列300萬元因依計劃核實編列預算令當年度執行期間不需致用預算建議依行政程序辦理報繳國庫提案人委員馬文君等人第579案"},{"start":21189.232,"end":21208.792,"text":"之因國防部國軍聘僱人員休假請假規定第4條勞動部已表明違反勞基法之疑慮須以針對該項規定進行修正後續仍應保障約聘僱人員勞動條件提案人委員徐巧欣等人"},{"start":21210.424,"end":21225.61,"text":"第580案請軍醫局持續檢討各基層單位軍醫編設及人力配置需求並廣訓國軍官兵具備戰傷救護及緊急救護之技能提案人委員陳永康等人第581案"},{"start":21230.681,"end":21254.089,"text":"114年度國防部所屬預算案軍醫局於第一幕向下人事行政編列預算30萬4千元國軍東部地區外離島高山偏遠營區及艦艇醫療支援普遍不足請軍醫局於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員林益君等人第582案"},{"start":21258.875,"end":21272.39,"text":"請軍醫局持續加強暫時大量傷患救治以及戰傷醫療後送應處之人員訓練以達預算編列及執行之最大效益提案人委員陳永康等人"},{"start":21273.632,"end":21290.8,"text":"第584案（請國防部（請國防醫學院比照交易部方案（對大學部致費生住宿費與114學年度起（由軍教基金給予補助（提案人委員徐巧欣等人"},{"start":21293.001,"end":21316.548,"text":"第584案花東之醫療支援長期不如西部地區國軍花蓮總醫院為第二級作戰區唯一之國軍醫院照護東部地區軍民之身心健康軍醫局更因依規劃時程持續加強對花東軍民醫療之投入包含人力及量能提案人委員沈伯陽等人"},{"start":21318.237,"end":21334.609,"text":"第585案國防大學執行游泳教學及訓練任務請國防大學競速派員送訓取得救生員之資格至115年期改由單位所屬人員專職擔任維安救生人人力"},{"start":21335.249,"end":21356.941,"text":"以尊節國防預算（提案委員馬文君等人第586案（請國防部確實查查入營一南是否曾與中國就學或長期生活等情勢妥適評估分發單位及從事業務並於兩個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案委員沈伯陽等人"},{"start":21357.601,"end":21374.211,"text":"第587案國防部應持續重視國軍人才資培育（請國防部協調教育部運用高等教育深耕計劃經費（將國防部所屬各軍校校院納入補助提案人委員陳永康等人"},{"start":21375.851,"end":21402.763,"text":"第588案請中正裕孝、舊伙食人力、督導力度及衛生教育等方面進行檢討及改善消彌食安風險之因指確保全校施生善食安全提案人委員林楚英等人第589案請中正裕孝、舊伙食人力、督導力度及衛生教育等方面進行檢討及改善提案人委員盧美林等人第590案"},{"start":21405.3,"end":21428.731,"text":"請中正育校就火石人力督導力度及衛生教育等方面進行檢討及改善令針對本席預算提案之回復詳實未來國軍各單位應多以此為範例提案人委員徐巧欣等人第591案114年度國防部所屬預算案參謀本部第三目教育訓練業務向下"},{"start":21430.732,"end":21453.992,"text":"作戰綜合業務向下編列執勤人員業點費442萬元（有鑒於國軍官兵業點費至114年1月1日（請每人從60元調整為100元（原要求國防部針對爭核部分提出因應做法及說明（並於3個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告（體驗人委員馬文君等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":21497.298,"end":21515.514,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":21531.596,"end":21541.944,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21592.719,"end":21593.979,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":21608.506,"end":21610.807,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":21635.143,"end":21654.915,"text":"我們主決議宣讀完畢我們慣例的處理就是請業管單位同意辦理就同意辦理按文字修正通過就按文字修正通過如果有意見就提出這個有意見我們再進行討論否則我們就快速的移動我只念暗號我只念暗號各業管自己注意我們從546案的主決議案開始"},{"start":21663.612,"end":21687.375,"text":"同意辦理按文字修正通過兩個答案如果說我們有意見那我們就拿出來討論好不好好來主決議546案同意辦理好那個照案通過547案同意辦理照案通過548案同意辦理照案通過549案文字修正後通過同意這是陳冠廷委員文字修正有沒有意見"},{"start":21688.456,"end":21707.643,"text":"OK好549案按文字修正後辦理通過來再來550案同意辦理好照案通過551案同意辦理552案同意辦理照案通過553案同意辦理好等一下"},{"start":21716.002,"end":21727.576,"text":"各位委員如果你們的案子自己要看一下現在554案同意辦理照案通過555案因為這邊委員有一些文字修正按委員修正後的文字來辦理文字修正有沒有唸過"},{"start":21731.196,"end":21738.74,"text":"馬文君委員的案子按文字修正後通過556案按文字修正後通過辦理557案按文字修正後辦理558案按文字修正後辦理"},{"start":21750.146,"end":21755.631,"text":"五百五十九案按文字修正後辦理五百六十案同意辦理五百六十一案按文字修正後通過"},{"start":21765.62,"end":21768.481,"text":"同意辦理同意辦理同意辦理同意辦理同意辦理同意辦理同意辦理"},{"start":21785.966,"end":21799.67,"text":"委員修正後文字辦理按照文字修正後通過570案同意辦理照案通過571案同意辦理照案通過572案同意辦理照案通過573案同意辦理照案通過574案同意辦理照案通過575案同意辦理照案通過576案同意辦理照案通過577案"},{"start":21811.974,"end":21830.787,"text":"同意辦理照案通過578案依委員修正後文字辦理按文字修正後通過579案按委員文字修正後辦理按文字修正後通過580案同意辦理照案通過581案依修正後文字辦理按文字修正後通過580案"},{"start":21832.688,"end":21833.088,"text":"同意辦理照案通過589案"},{"start":21852.628,"end":21868.995,"text":"同意辦理照案通過589590案一修正後文字辦理好按文字修正後通過591案同意辦理照案通過那我們主決議呢處理完均那接下來要處理部本部的預算來"},{"start":21896.345,"end":21897.426,"text":"所以你們溝通的結論是什麼?"},{"start":21924.672,"end":21949.769,"text":"委員提案辦理一共兩百萬那我們就是講一下就好了就是希望美國的自己他們是希望的居民比是1比1我們現在是只要3比1就好但是現在看起來是也沒有這樣子的這個做法我們希望說現在都是有文人部長那我們能夠軍中的這種習性習俗能夠跟民間這樣子有一點碰撞的話會比較好這是我們的用意是好謝謝委員"},{"start":21949.889,"end":21949.969,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":21981.195,"end":21981.456,"text":"全案減6000萬"},{"start":21989.178,"end":22014.094,"text":"114年度減一千兩百萬全案減六千萬但是114年度是在六千萬裡面的一千兩百萬這樣沒錯對他就一千二一千二不過這個原則是因為他現在全案是用五年計算如果他有更動那個年限你不能說我把它縮成三年結果你把這個金額放大你知道沒有我的意思是說"},{"start":22016.576,"end":22027.642,"text":"沒有因為他在上面沒有顯示這個倒是個好方法他如果縮減才一個年度你就只少1200而已我懂他意思我意思是說他還是因為我們有個全案我們有綁一個全案好110案全案減列6000萬但114年度在這6000萬裡面減列1200萬OK好"},{"start":22042.932,"end":22045.273,"text":"國防部本部第2案到第11案請說明"},{"start":22061.782,"end":22080.467,"text":"第2案到第11案是政府辦公室就有關的提案進行說明其中第2案是陳冠廷委員指導博愛營區有腎漏改善的工程的議題我們經向委員的說明同意改凍結100萬元提出書面報告後使得凍支"},{"start":22081.387,"end":22109.072,"text":"第6案跟第7案分別是馬文君還有陳冠廷委員指導水電費的議題我們也是向委員說明之後同意改列組決議因為這兩案改組決議的內容相同我們再建請委員能夠同意併案來辦理第8個案子是馬文君委員指導的資訊服務費的議題我們已經向委員說明之後同意預算照列"},{"start":22109.972,"end":22131.502,"text":"第9案為徐曉鑫委員指導志願役邊線不足的議題我們向委員說明之後同意改列主決議其中第10個案子是馬文君委員指導資訊軟硬體的設備費的議題很感謝委員提供許多策進的建議我們刪減改為100萬元並凍結20%書面報告後"},{"start":22139.445,"end":22141.106,"text":"你講半天為什麼沒有講到我的案啊"},{"start":22166.779,"end":22167.32,"text":"三四五還沒報嗎"},{"start":22182.168,"end":22203.64,"text":"第3、第4、第5第3案為黃仁委員關切本部文職人員為足而禁用之議題以向委員辦公室提供資料及說明經委員同意改列主決議3個月內提出書面報告幾個月內我們都先拿掉因為幾個月內能夠解凍是召委排審不是開會期間再來"},{"start":22206.976,"end":22235.435,"text":"第4案為王定宇委員關切本部文職人員未足而禁用之議題以向委員辦公室提出書面資料說明今委員同意預算照列感謝委員指導我竟然同意照列好再來第5案是第5案跟各位有人報告第5案為林儲英委員就鎮豐市產產申報業務提案感謝委員的指導本案已向委員說明見請同意免予刪減"},{"start":22236.656,"end":22261.309,"text":"同意下修為凍結一百萬（並提出書面報告後（使得凍支一百萬（我們先處理數額的部分數額大概都沒有意見那有沒有要垂詢的部分來馬文君委員這個部分是第十案就是國軍二代公文檔案管理系統建制的這個部分大概是編了900明年度是950萬950萬左右那"},{"start":22266.993,"end":22272.877,"text":"這個部分簡略主要是因為國軍二代公文系統他從111年就已經開始編列預算那時候他是用有一家公司用288萬去標到然後去做系統開發那所以其實已經開發完了在112年執行這個系統建置的時候又編了711萬那這個也其實"},{"start":22295.895,"end":22299.537,"text":"這個都已經是給支通電測試合格的系統那今年113又要更新軟體這一次要1400多萬950萬就是111年用比較少的金額然後去標到然後做了一個起始的一個系統"},{"start":22320.629,"end":22323.93,"text":"然後開發完112年又建制然後113年又要更新軟體還有硬體提升的部分還有設計開發所以我們看到他每年123階段這樣一直不斷的（把經費一直增加起來所以我們要請廠商把這個軟體設定安裝也應該要交給自通電軍去測試合格"},{"start":22348.24,"end":22369.999,"text":"因為它做出來現在還是直通電軍統管所有的部分這個部分我們希望做出來以後至少讓直通電軍去測試那另外一個就是第一代的公文系統之前大概前一個公司大概評估全軍要十幾億"},{"start":22371.48,"end":22400.223,"text":"所以如果我們會覺得說這個好像是這個公司好像一開始他用很低的金額用兩百多萬會去綁到後面十幾億的這樣子的一個後續的全軍的一個建制的一個網路系統所以我們覺得說這樣可能會被吃得死死的那很多公文系統在這個部分他不管是在所有的"},{"start":22402.267,"end":22405.888,"text":"我們這一次刪減是因為它的有一些注點費什麼的是不太合理可是我們凍結的部分就是針對這個部分希望可以去檢討然後也不要因為這樣因為一開始有一家廠商用很少的金額然後把你標下來結果他想要吃的是全軍的而且你前面因為你轉硬體所有的建制所有的設計開發全部都是他做的你後面的即使有其他廠商也很難再參與"},{"start":22431.459,"end":22436.548,"text":"即使你有心說不是獨家可是好像也不容易了所以這個部分我們一定要防止這樣的事情發生所以有凍結20%"},{"start":22445.719,"end":22468.041,"text":"我來做先黃人委員再來林楚瑩委員還是林楚瑩委員先黃人委員再來徐曉欣委員我想我的第5案最重要就是我們之前有看到就是我們國防部裡頭因為人員作業程序的問題把包括連部長在內甚至於一些情報人員的有關財產申報的資料就這樣整個外洩出去"},{"start":22468.721,"end":22488.056,"text":"所以說我當然知道政風處你的預算只有300多萬所以說有關於凍結數我不堅持但是對於你們未來怎麼樣來加強精進這個公文作業的控管的流程因為有一次就可能會有第二次那這個部分我希望你們其實要能夠據實的做一個內部的檢討因為這樣的事情實在是太離譜了好請黃委員"},{"start":22491.161,"end":22491.422,"text":"徐曉欣委員"},{"start":22500.089,"end":22527.618,"text":"因為我這邊寫到的是特別費所以我改組決議就好那這邊的部分我是針對這個我是針對我們近年來國軍的志願役人數逐漸降低那我們希望能夠思考這個包含是增加志願役還有這一陣子以來的自傷案件爆量的原因還有是否能夠提高薪資待遇保障我們的"},{"start":22529.978,"end":22547.306,"text":"國軍權益還有是勞動權益的精神導入國軍的規範我們希望在這幾個部分就用主決議的方式來列好謝謝我們來處理預算數第二案凍結一百萬書面報告後使得凍支第三案改主決議第四案照案通過"},{"start":22554.777,"end":22576.893,"text":"第5案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支第6案及第7案並按以主決議的方式來處理那請兩位委員共提再來第8案照案通過第9案改主決議第10案簡列100萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":22580.252,"end":22594.435,"text":"凍結20%出面報告經同意後使得凍支然後你這第11案跟第10案是不是同一個分支計劃向下不一樣不一樣好我怕你會凍30%好第11案凍結10%出面報告後使得凍支好接下來處理第12案拿麥克風否則沒辦法做會議記錄"},{"start":22605.987,"end":22607.028,"text":"12案到第13案請說明"},{"start":22644.195,"end":22656.506,"text":"第12案及第13案分別為馬文君委員及黃仁委員針對部分新建工程及機關採購訂約及履約管理作業加強人員教育訓練的議題感謝委員的指導"},{"start":22659.048,"end":22687.714,"text":"本案已赴委員辦公室說明（建請委員同意第12案下修凍結100萬元（是提出書面報告後（使得凍支（第13案建請同意改列為主決議（並提出書面報告（懇請委員知道來那個兩位委員對處理的預算方式沒有意見那我是不是建議這個案黃榮委員不在嗎好吧那就他已經送來了好吧那就這樣處理好來"},{"start":22689.124,"end":22692.626,"text":"昨天到今天我們都看到很多的工程的部分發生採購上的疑義不管是專管公司也好、廠商也好其實大概都有發生很多的問題"},{"start":22714.261,"end":22714.581,"text":"（處理．12月16日、18日及19日及19日及19日"},{"start":22744.108,"end":22757.715,"text":"12案到第13案以黃仁委員的案子為主提案並案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍之令黃仁委員提組決議已經送過來了第14案也是改組決議黃仁委員確定了"},{"start":22759.456,"end":22774.15,"text":"主決議處理第15案沒有15案建議各位這一頁可以留著做紀念因為大概一二十年才會遇到一次就是我們中間有委員退休那個洪森漢委員另有高就從這邊離開序號就會變空的這個很難的碰到"},{"start":22778.494,"end":22789.291,"text":"這有點像新台幣印的瑕疵品接下來是第16案到第27案是國防院的案子來請國防院說明"},{"start":22790.447,"end":22814.124,"text":"是委員好第16案為黃人委員關切國防院接待防兵的審查機制那經向委員說明或同意凍結50萬元提交書面報告後使得凍支17案為黃人委員的指導有關國防院對外發言應更為審慎本案已向委員說明同意改列主決議"},{"start":22817.895,"end":22840.34,"text":"第18到22案等5案為馬文君委員陳冠廷委員陳永康委員林益君委員針對派員赴國外智庫研習教育訓練經費的分配以及國防創新小組推動進度等提出指導那一項委員說明經委員同意將18跟20案改為主決議19、21、22案盡請並案凍結提交書面報告後凍結凍結多少"},{"start":22847.47,"end":22874.155,"text":"兩百萬二十三到二十七五案為陳冠廷委員、林益君委員、徐巧欣委員、王帝宇委員及馬文君委員關切國防院研究成果的量能以及自籌裁員的成效那這個部分建請並按凍結提交書面報告後時的凍結這個部分的數額沒有結論沒有共識嗎"},{"start":22878.491,"end":22897.394,"text":"有共識我們就照共識我們不宜在這個協商桌上推翻共識有沒有共識那個我們希望是一千萬到馬委員說兩千請主席裁決不可被他裁決你們到底有沒有答應他兩千我們沒有答應兩千好啦聽你的啦好那這動輒兩千"},{"start":22900.998,"end":22906.561,"text":"第18案凍結20萬書面報告後使得凍資17案改組決議18案改組決議另外既然2000的話馬文君委員你的2000萬讓我稍微分配一下可以"},{"start":22926.563,"end":22953.219,"text":"陳冠廷委員凍結兩百萬書面報告後使得凍支陳永康委員改組決議二十案二十一案林益君委員凍結三十萬書面報告後使得凍支二十二案二十二案我們先照列我把你弄到後面一起處理二十案我們就先照列二十三案二十三案的話"},{"start":22955.558,"end":22964.34,"text":"陳冠廷委員 這個案子我們就不處理了啦你前面有22案我們是另案動的另案動多少200他現在是併在一起動啦"},{"start":22965.083,"end":22969.746,"text":"第二十三案的陳冠廷委員的部分你要不要一個數額還是說前面那邊就OK了"},{"start":22987.677,"end":22993.318,"text":"這個我們前面那邊可以少一點這個一定要因為這個是我們是特別針對這個問題的好那陳冠廷委員23案凍結100萬那前面的19案凍結100萬那再來林益君委員的話也凍結100啦好不好那個林昭偉24案凍結100"},{"start":23011.245,"end":23012.426,"text":"24案喔?"},{"start":23012.426,"end":23027.938,"text":"24案我改組決議好改組決議OK謝謝你好再來25案徐委員剛才是要一千啦但是我們還是一對阿那就動一百啦動一百齁動結一百萬然後26案動結一百萬好這樣子兩千萬餘數還有多少"},{"start":23036.489,"end":23060.03,"text":"16案20馬文君委員凍結1500萬你算錯你們找謝其前負責你有沒有算錯我看一下我覺得怪怪的不對啦我這邊加起來就六七百了你怎麼可能不對啦你看看"},{"start":23062.449,"end":23062.609,"text":"第27案凍結1370萬"},{"start":23088.807,"end":23100.094,"text":"書面報告經同意後使得動之我再念一次以免遺漏第16案凍結20萬書面報告後使得動之17案改組決議18案改組決議19案凍結100萬書面報告後使得動之20案組決議21案凍結30萬書面報告後使得動之然後22案凍結200萬書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":23116.644,"end":23123.187,"text":"23案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支24案改組決議25案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支26案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支然後1350好那就27案凍結1350萬書面報告經同意後使得凍支來馬委員請"},{"start":23144.477,"end":23148.582,"text":"18案我們同意改成主決議可是這個預算裡面其實他有特別提到一個就是國外智庫派訓的部分那我們想要瞭解的是這個智庫是怎麼選的那這些學員"},{"start":23161.878,"end":23172.489,"text":"他派訊回來以後他可以做什麼因為我們特別花了這樣的預算然後他如果是去做研究的那他研究的項目跟我們國軍或者跟我們整個國家安全他的科目"},{"start":23178.834,"end":23179.675,"text":"另外還有一個就是在"},{"start":23207.395,"end":23211.676,"text":"22案的部分那出國以後這個是另外凍結我們希望說他出國以後可以把他的心得他去看到所見到的或學習的或交流的方向把他的成果心得還有創新的這樣子的一個目標方向也可以提供比較具體的建言讓我們可以依據這個"},{"start":23236.76,"end":23241.044,"text":"來做一個前瞻考量另外還有27案的部分因為其實到目前為止我們每年對於國防安全研究院大概增加了已經5000萬了所以現在又增加2000萬它主要是做了什麼樣的改變也希望可以提供給委員會可以知道謝謝"},{"start":23263.66,"end":23291.366,"text":"陳冠廷委員請這個我們看國防安全研究院的這個對外公開的研究成果他數量是不斷的在遞減那我們可以想像說數量遞減可能是質量倍增但可能也不是嘛所以這個部分也麻煩國防院可以好好的來去了解是因為質量好10倍還是上電視的頻率好10倍上電視也是可以如果是可以在國際的平台上面的話替我國發聲是OK的那另外一個部分就是發表的研究報告我們是希望說多投"},{"start":23291.986,"end":23292.727,"text":"國防部主管"},{"start":23314.603,"end":23337.736,"text":"書面回答的時候請涵蓋所有不管是書面提案或者口頭提問的部分其實國防院的第一年的預算我印象被大砍一翼雖然現在其實是在補血當中還沒有到第一年的水位不過請國防院加油我們希望期待有更好的研究成果接下來是28案到第36案28到36案"},{"start":23342.638,"end":23347.099,"text":"在28到36案中,第28、32、35案已經提供委員辦公室說明資料另外29、30、31、34及36案已經到委員辦公室來進行說明合計9案並案"},{"start":23370.906,"end":23389.756,"text":"其中第28、31及32案等3案為王定雲委員及馬文軍委員關心國軍土壤及地下水污染整治的成效以及國防產業發展條例的推動成果今項委員說明之後,會委員同意預算照列"},{"start":23392.017,"end":23409.564,"text":"另外第33案及34案兩案為林楚英委員及馬文君委員要求辦理國軍借退官兵輔導措施與附陸出境管制相關業務的預算編列應該有明確的目標以及關切列管軍品合格廠商獎勵作業"},{"start":23412.526,"end":23430.295,"text":"執行狀況．經向委員說明．委員同意改為主決議其餘4案分別是．第29案為黃人委員提案是關切列管軍品的清單．沒有按照產業列別來進行分裂．不利廠商來查找"},{"start":23431.375,"end":23451.602,"text":"第30案黃仁委員提案要求國防部能強化土壤及地下水污染的防治作為第35案陳冠廷委員提案關切廠商申請級別人證的意願有待提升第36案羅美琳委員提案建議列管軍品清單應該增加"},{"start":23454.124,"end":23463.975,"text":"軍品研發品項以上4案分別以向委員說明或提供說明資料建請委員同意並按凍結100萬元提出素面報告後實地動之,懇請委員指導"},{"start":23470.387,"end":23486.199,"text":"先詢問一下2831323個案子都同意照列是不是委員有同意嗎有齁我怎麼不知道我有同意好 那我就同意吧沒關係待會我先把預算理一下齁"},{"start":23489.503,"end":23503.617,"text":"29、30黃人委員．部分．35、36陳冠廷委員．羅美玲委員．部分．並案凍結100．我們讓羅美玲委員．提案當主提案．凍結100萬有沒有問題．沒有．我先把預算處理完．各位要隨循來隨循28案到36案"},{"start":23508.902,"end":23513.204,"text":"28、31、32同意照列29、30、35、36這四個案子以羅美玲委員的36案為主題案並案凍結100萬訴言報告後使得凍支33、34勒"},{"start":23530.424,"end":23547.231,"text":"改組決議33改組決議34改組決議我們這個部分先處理完畢然後來那個剛才要詢問的羅美玲委員來OK好謝謝主席我尊重主席的這個決定那可是我還是要說明一下就是說我們國防部依照這個產發條例呢有"},{"start":23548.752,"end":23575.175,"text":"和定公告的列管軍品的清單裡面我們112年度有提列了837項的軍品可是我們其中軍品屬性為研發品項的部分只有91項只佔了10.87%我們一直在提到說我們要國防自主所以本期希望說這研發品項可以提高再來我希望說你們可以提一個書面說明就是說我們要如何提升"},{"start":23576.176,"end":23602.085,"text":"還有鼓勵我們的民間廠商參與軍品研發的議員這個部分以上謝謝書面答覆的時候請涵蓋委員詢問的部分沒有了嗎好 那我們現在處理來 沈博洋委員確定一下33案因為我也有一起連署剛剛處理委員是說這一個對於預期目標他希望還是有書面報告他好像沒有講主角他講說是動10%都是有跟你們溝通過"},{"start":23607.831,"end":23621.661,"text":"33案改組決議有沒有取得委員的同意有我們都去說明的時候是有的基本上不在我們是不處理但是我們他沒有同意改組決議我們就改組決議沒關係待回來有問題我們再後續處理改組決議他其實還是會書面回答還是會回答好來37案到38案法律司的請說明"},{"start":23631.853,"end":23656.121,"text":"召委各位委員大家好三七案是林楚雲委員的提案三十八案是黃仁委員的提案三七案林楚雲委員針對部隊的國防法務官的定位還有後續整體的規劃委員表示很關心黃仁委員在三十八案是針對國軍今年軍機事件頻傳希望我們能夠加強法治教育這兩個案子都有分別到委員辦公室去溝通也報告"},{"start":23657.362,"end":23665.751,"text":"林淳於委員辦公室回覆我們是說同意下修凍結100萬黃榮委員的辦公室跟我們說同意下修凍結50萬然後我們提書面報告"},{"start":23671.678,"end":23689.339,"text":"在處理之前我先請問一下法律律師我們明年因為坦白講在立法院現在的狀況下我們國防外交委員會我個人值得在這邊跟各位當同事我覺得很榮幸我們不管在法案的審查預算的處理"},{"start":23690.08,"end":23713.141,"text":"都是委員會中心主義的進行方式而且我們在討論案子的時候幾乎沒有黨派的背景在思考問題所以我現在要問法律司事各位應該還有印象我們那時候跟司法法制聯審通過的這個軍人懲戒法以及陸海空軍懲戒法還有軍人權益保障法你們現在日出是定在1月1號嗎"},{"start":23714.142,"end":23737.843,"text":"沒有跟委員報告我們現在都還在準備因為那個我們是希望能夠在明年的7月1號之前我們目標是定在這邊但是因為人員要訓練還有硬體軟體等等我們這一個盡快上路了有很多以前比如說我們在外面看到那個蔡媽媽的案子啊或者很多這個案子如果有這一套法制的話他會有委員"},{"start":23738.824,"end":23761.155,"text":"獨立的委員來做處理那從懲戒權益的保障到剝奪相關的事情都有一定的程序可以依循所以這個盡快日出當然你們有準備的工作我們不用強我不用再因為我們已經立完法了日出的時間是要尊重行政單位的權責但是這個是我們國家有史以來第一次通過"},{"start":23762.296,"end":23782.281,"text":"要懲戒軍人要依法有據軍人的權益人權的保障也依法有憑那這個是一個很大進步請進速上路好不好好那個我們37案到38案處理如下37案凍結100萬書面報告後使得凍支38案凍結50萬書面報告後使得凍支接下來處理39到46案來請說明"},{"start":23793.917,"end":23822.99,"text":"這督察是嗎?委員好有關於39案到46案主要是工作計畫第二幕上面督察罪的分支計畫首先報告39案的部分39案部分主題案委員有馬文俊委員和陳雪生委員他對於我們這個近年來和今年度的戰機術督察包含軍事官兵的違紀違法的樣態都有指導經由辦公室經由委員辦公室充分的說明我們會在組織協調和內部控管上"},{"start":23823.811,"end":23834.829,"text":"會加強盡力的作為委員辦公室也同意照列這個部分進行各位委員指導三九案 三九案同意照列再來"},{"start":23836.496,"end":23853.845,"text":"有關於40到45案的部分（分別有王定宇委員（林楚瑩委員（陳冠廷委員（林金委員和黃仁委員（也針對我們督查作業（剛才的項目同三九案也做指導（那經與各辦公室委員說明（同意併案凍結100萬（進行委員指導好再來"},{"start":23856.747,"end":23878.532,"text":"最後一個46案的部分是關於我們督察作業費近年這是馬文俊委員的提案關於我們增加的資訊系統更新的部分增加的幅度過高那有近日辦公室跟委員說明過主要是增加資安房屋的部分那建議這個凍結50萬供請委員指導來各位委員如果沒有問題的話我來處理預算的度啦好"},{"start":23884.893,"end":23895.076,"text":"第1個39案同意照列40案、41案、42案、43案到44、45案並案凍結100萬以王定宇委員的提案為主題案那書面報告後使得凍支第46案凍結50萬書面報告後使得凍支好接下來我們來處理47到48案"},{"start":23913.613,"end":23939.253,"text":"各位委員好47案跟48案分別為陳冠廷還有馬文君委員指導有關於國家軍事博物館的議題讓我們分別向兩位委員說明並提供完整的資料同意凍結十分之一建請委員同意第47案跟48案並按凍結五千萬元書面報告後時得動之好 那個有沒有委員要詢問來馬文君委員"},{"start":23941.279,"end":23953.645,"text":"這個部分因為過去我們堆這個博物館裡面其實很多的設置而且把它增加的金額也非常高那另外就是它在影音室設備的部分它多媒體資訊設備都已經先規劃設計把它綠定好可是現在這些設計好像就已經是落後了"},{"start":23965.43,"end":23965.47,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":23984.562,"end":24008.1,"text":"動武謙跟委員說明一下兩位委員報告一下我們在主體工程的部分委員一直關切就是第一個進度那第二個就是他施工的品質那當然在施工的安全上面委員也是一直有指導那第二項就是兩位委員同時提到展示跟營運端的部分現在為什麼要進來因為我們面臨到就是說讓他第一個期程能夠如期的達成那我們也考慮到說整個這個"},{"start":24009.901,"end":24010.601,"text":"你這樣講的很完美齁"},{"start":24039.511,"end":24046.737,"text":"是應該的我們其實很多軍種像海軍有海軍的軍使館空軍有空軍的軍使館你們到時候是要把它整合進來嗎?"},{"start":24049.069,"end":24067.756,"text":"軍種的方面還是保留他們軍種的特色我舉個例子啦我們那個大概全地球最老的切比機他除役之後你是要放在我們這個軍博館裡面還是放在海軍那裡目前的話是他們都對使館那比較大的東西的話我們現在就已經有那邊在我們這個軍使館我們花那麼多錢國家級的軍博館"},{"start":24070.137,"end":24097.766,"text":"反而你們要主動說這個是重要的里程碑我應該收納到國家級的你放在各軍種第一個沒有人去看啊他們在碼頭旁邊誰去看第二個委管他也沒有經費你們才有經費所以我是覺得你知道在那個華盛頓DC那個Museum Mall前面他一個一個的他那個軍博館裡面他就認為有價值的登錄阿波羅旗號他就收過來原件放在那裡所以你們這個應該要主動要把它彙整起來而不會像現在我們那個"},{"start":24098.626,"end":24098.786,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":24115.004,"end":24129.679,"text":"47案到48案以陳冠廷委員的提案為主提案並案凍結10%書面報告經同意後使得凍支各位委員我們現在要處理主決議因為有新增10來案的主決議還是要宣讀"},{"start":24131.275,"end":24158.208,"text":"還沒有齊全我會等一下那我們先休息到3點半收集主決議齊全之後3點半先開始宣讀大概宣讀10分鐘我給他久一點你這個霸凌他念完了之後我們就來處理這個主決議那為什麼要給這個差不多3、40分鐘的時間請各軍總就第二輪我希望第二輪的案子越少越好"},{"start":24159.329,"end":24167.986,"text":"請機密去協商公開的你們可以去協商能夠把二輪的爭議化解成為共識這個時間窗口給各位"},{"start":24171.397,"end":24181.326,"text":"那個沈博洋委員跟那個林楚瑜委員講一下剛才去跟他查證了確實是他要凍結10%就36萬33案請醫生員更改記錄不是改組決議33案凍結10%也就36萬書面報告後使得凍支好我們休息到3點半3點半後組決議收集完成開始宣讀"},{"start":24195.708,"end":24211.239,"text":"因為我昨天加的那些功能我都會加在榮德上面不會讓榮德再加錢比如說你說昨天講的無人機發射系統那些那些都是算在榮德上控制系統不會是算在榮德的帳篷不會再讓他多賺錢只會壓縮他的利潤所以我們可不可以不要刪那麼多"},{"start":24227.734,"end":24228.877,"text":"那個真的太高了"},{"start":24632.458,"end":24633.61,"text":"你們記者豆花有給他們嗎?"},{"start":25204.137,"end":25204.417,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":25238.038,"end":25251.299,"text":"好我們3點半恢復開會請議事人員就增加主決議52之1到52之10新增10案主決議案請議事人員摘要宣讀我們開始宣讀"},{"start":25252.472,"end":25269.644,"text":"第52之一案114年度國防部預算與第一幕向下基本行政工作維持編列預算市益2242萬7千元國防部本部近年文職人員退離人數居高不下恐影響國防部運作效率允請國防部積極嚴厲對策並於三個月內向立法院"},{"start":25271.866,"end":25295.533,"text":"外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員黃仁等人第52次二案國防部114年度一般行政分支計劃下下基本行政工作維持支水電費編列一億八千五百零三萬六千元114年增列兩千五百三十二萬五千元國防部仍應持續經濟管理及使用效率應針對調漲原因及節能減碳措施成效請於三個月內向立法院"},{"start":25300.254,"end":25324.207,"text":"外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案委員陳冠廷等人第52之3案明年度國防預算再創近年新高但近年來國軍志願役人數卻逐漸降低國防部在編列高額軍事投資預算之際應妥善思考如何提升志願役編線比以維持部隊戰力並於一個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":25325.188,"end":25336.816,"text":"提案委員（徐曉鑫等人（第52支持案114年度國防部預算第一幕一般行政向下國防採購中業務費編列3,083萬3千元依據112年度審計部決算報告指出國防部部分接官採購訂約及履約管理作業履發生訂定契約單價與採購法規規定衛福國防部等情勢國防部以加強各單位採購人員專業職業訓練"},{"start":25356.79,"end":25370.087,"text":"專業職能教育訓練委員要求國防部於兩個月內向立法院外交國防委員會提出書面報告提案委員黃仁等人第52支武案美國智庫卡托研究所多次公開研究報告指出我國對美軍"},{"start":25372.45,"end":25384.726,"text":"軍購交運進度延宕（國防部（武器交運延宕（恐影響戰力（應與美國專責團隊密切協調合作（並應用各式安援及安和手段（解決自愛難題之問題（提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":25388.803,"end":25404.936,"text":"第52至6案國防安全研究院為國防重要智庫專注於國家安全與國防軍事研究與分析公開發言需保持行政中立並持專業、客觀精神不涉及無關研究之其他議題提案人委員黃仁等人"},{"start":25405.496,"end":25414.243,"text":"第52次起案國防部參考美軍資國防創新單位（成立先進國防科技小組（針對此小組設立這計畫目標預算規劃與預期成效（請國防部藉由眷權作業機制（結合國防產業發展及研究成果（"},{"start":25423.79,"end":25447.479,"text":"持續與國內外國防創新機構及單位交流另事時安排向委員提供書面資料或說明最新概況及進度提案人委員陳永康等人第52之8案114年度國防部預算案與捐助國防安全研究院相關經費預算一億八千零五十五萬元要求國防部"},{"start":25448.479,"end":25473.698,"text":"有求國防安全研究院應聚焦於關鍵議題並提出權威性政策分析每年應產出質量並重之研究成果供各界參考提案人委員林益君等人第52之9案國防部選派國軍人員赴國外智庫注點研究一年114年度則由選派學官至美英日韓等國"},{"start":25474.505,"end":25486.294,"text":"自庫培訓所編列教育訓練費預算用以支付學關防補助生活費及交通費反國後任職於重要政策單位"},{"start":25487.537,"end":25510.669,"text":"一年辦理國際交流合作等業務以符合為用而訓之宗旨提案人委員馬文君等人第52支食案國防部與國防政策規劃以督導業務計劃相下國防支援管理分支計劃編列2850萬元用於補助列管軍品合格廠商最為研發軍品之作業所需"},{"start":25512.493,"end":25537.39,"text":"講補助費年度預算若未支用完畢建議因依行政程序辦理報繳國庫提案人委員馬文君等人宣讀完畢好我們現在來處理主決議因為主決議大家都原則上看過問題都不大所以待會請業務主管單位就照案通過或文字修正辦理照案辦理或文字修正辦理兩個回答"},{"start":25538.271,"end":25554.009,"text":"主決議有自愛難行提出來我們就停下來討論處理我們從主決議第49案開始沈博洋委員提案49案依修正文字辦理49案依修正文字通過"},{"start":25555.11,"end":25572.298,"text":"50案一修正文字辦理好按照修正文字通過51案一修正文字辦理按修正文字通過52案一修正文字辦理按修正文字通過來再來是52之一案照案辦理照案通過"},{"start":25572.998,"end":25573.878,"text":"按文字修正通過"},{"start":25596.77,"end":25616.668,"text":"52之9案照案辦理照案通過在52之10案照案辦理照案通過來黃委員有意見請說針對52案的這個噪音補助的一個方案那當然感謝這個文字修正之後通過那這邊必須要表達一下"},{"start":25617.549,"end":25637.407,"text":"因為過去在治航基地噪音的問題使得臨近的這些居民遭受到這些噪音包含健康的問題所以那一天我們特別責成了我們的李倩琦委員包含盧憲毅委員我們三個"},{"start":25639.408,"end":25651.139,"text":"專程還有國防部陪同專程到這個自航基地然後在附近的一個部落在那邊聽起這個17個里的里長的心聲"},{"start":25653.686,"end":25669.549,"text":"後來他們認為我們好像形成了一個一國兩制所以我今天提了這個主決議的意思就是說我們是不是一定要改成跟民航補助條款的方案"},{"start":25670.63,"end":25687.735,"text":"因為過去國軍沒有在修正之下所以那個補助10年才補助個冷氣跟氣密霜所以這一次我們按照民航的補助條款特別拜託我們的國防部以上 謝謝"},{"start":25690.809,"end":25706.742,"text":"主決議已經通過我們現在要處理的是國防部公務預算第二輪討論機密預算有第23案及第24案並案第26案及第27案並案待會我們會機密審查另外公開部分"},{"start":25707.062,"end":25721.926,"text":"有國防部所屬第62案陸軍司令部第8幕這個一般建築及設備第二階營造營建工程那這個好像已經有要改組決議了另外第93案到第97案這也是公開預算的部分第160案到161案這個是公開預算部分"},{"start":25727.768,"end":25752.465,"text":"第268案到271案遣件後續的部分所以在公開的部分進入第二輪的有四大塊那這四大塊其中有一類已經有共識了所以我們感謝各位委員我們已經盡量把有共識的處理到極致這五六百個案子我們機密預算只剩下兩大案"},{"start":25754.326,"end":25777.591,"text":"公開的部分只剩三大案三大案分別是紅准列銷以及潛艦後續艦那我們待會我先真的各位同意我們待會因為其實討論很多了我們待會就直接進行處理我們就不多加討論當然如果你要表達意見本席一樣會同意那現在呢我們改進行秘密會議請議事人員清場"},{"start":26380.709,"end":26388.037,"text":"委員都就座了嗎?主責官員都就座了嗎?我們等一下媒體朋友"},{"start":26405.917,"end":26406.078,"text":"主席"},{"start":26423.423,"end":26446.698,"text":"我們開放會場現在開始處理公開部分的第二輪總共有四大類的案子分別是新安專向下的營建工程以及紅准以及列銷也就是自殺型無人機對美採購的案子以及"},{"start":26448.239,"end":26450.781,"text":"海昆國造潛艦後續艦總共4個案子經由同仁取得共識"},{"start":26463.948,"end":26478.602,"text":"．19日及19日及20日及21日及25日及26日及27日及28日及29日及30日及31日及32日及33日及34日及35日及35日及35日及36日及36日及37日及37日及38日及39日及39日及40日及40日及39日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日及40日"},{"start":26479.042,"end":26495.016,"text":"按照立法委員的職權責任我們在委員會中心主義的審查的概念下我們把預算一案一案把它處理到現在幾乎審查完盡而且在審查過程當中我相信不管是媒體朋友或社會各界"},{"start":26495.697,"end":26512.204,"text":"每個案子都沒有都無關黨派都事關國家利益大家雖然看法不同都還能夠達成一定的共識所以本人身為主席召委我很榮幸跟各位在這邊當同事非常感謝各位那我們現在進行處理的第一案"},{"start":26513.044,"end":26532.11,"text":"第62案有關陸軍司令部第8幕一般建築及設備第二階營建工程來那個葉管請說明是否達成共識準備舉報告第62案感謝林祖英委員的指導建請同意刪減改為一千萬及凍結五億元並向委員會提出書面報告後實的動之同意嗎"},{"start":26535.357,"end":26559.697,"text":"第62案簡列一千萬科目自行調整然後凍結五億書面報告經同意後使得凍支你們達成共識這樣就處理完畢來第93案到第97案有關陸軍司令部第4幕後勤及通知業務一般彈藥購置與維護我印象這個好像是馬偉有凍結兩億的這個案子有沒有達成共識"},{"start":26564.1,"end":26564.44,"text":"達成共識還是凍結2億"},{"start":26580.814,"end":26597.804,"text":"我們不是反對是希望能夠更好所以這個凍結案我加一個條件就是責成中科院你們的紅准二代必須達到先進的標準那標準有三樣這個到時候你們書面報告要把它列在裡面哪三樣你自己提一下拿麥克風可以做記錄"},{"start":26604.723,"end":26632.11,"text":"一是可以室內發射第二是可以預測目標慣性倒翼那個類似NLO那種預測目標對第三個是減重你還有一個串列彈藥是好就是說這幾個指標是所謂先進的一個指標那我們期待中科院發揮能力把紅准提升到可以在密閉空間發射可以在封閉就是封閉空間發射然後串列火藥"},{"start":26633.27,"end":26657.052,"text":"以及預測路徑還有一個是減重在這四個目標達成之後我們再同意來動之這樣的案子我們把它凍結我們期待綁一個條件希望中科院把紅准提升到這樣的能量在那之前的話我們先把紅准採購的預算予以凍結兩億那這個案子各位有沒有意見沒有的話就這樣"},{"start":26658.533,"end":26659.573,"text":"第160案到161案就是對美採購攻擊無人機飛彈系統那請陸軍說明一下"},{"start":26689.804,"end":26703.64,"text":"謝主席陸軍這邊兩點報告第一個有關於採購的291套反甲型攻擊無人機因為在整個反甲無人機的整體需求上上有很大的缺口所以陸軍積極地爭取徵購"},{"start":26706.943,"end":26724.936,"text":"原案的列銷專案的反甲型攻擊無人機（因為是屬於一個短交期（291套可預化在114、115年分年獲得（並案徵購的我們會徵取在116年獲得（如果重啟建案（依照建案的流程所需的時間（估算要到119年才能貨裝（時間上跟並案的徵購會相差了3年（"},{"start":26731.821,"end":26754.91,"text":"另外（如果並案徵購下（可以達到一定的批量（我們可以與美軍議約（要求降低採購的成本（爭取更有利的價格（這是第一點報告第二點（若委員會通過本案的徵購（在後續的需求上（我們會遵委員的指導（依照國際軍備的發展（將採購更新形式（以及符合防外傳需求的五選標的（懇請委員支持"},{"start":26757.632,"end":26769.544,"text":"這個案子我這樣處理看各位同仁有沒有意見他有兩個事情要處理可能大家想法不一樣這個案子可能要表決第一個列銷這個案子可以三減列45億7960萬元"},{"start":26774.87,"end":26789.532,"text":"保留原來我們就是合定要買的6億2430萬3000元但是我們會加一個主決議我把主決議提案請議事人員印給各位我們把這兩案子放在一起就是說"},{"start":26791.174,"end":26804.569,"text":"剪裂剪裂然後加上一個主決議那主決議的用意是我們你的預算超過的部分我幫你剪裂下來但是為了籌貨我們國軍需要的這個自殺型無人機我們在這個額度內"},{"start":26806.972,"end":26807.132,"text":"委員會委員長"},{"start":26829.508,"end":26856.706,"text":"國軍都在跟時間賽跑所以如果在剪裂預算後我們給他這個合定的額度內讓他去跟美方談判可以縮減兩年左右的籌貨時間的話這個主決意就是這個意思就是在這個合定的115億內我們雖然剪裂掉他的額度了但在額度內授權陸軍去跟美方來籌貨我們希望我們這個表決不用黨派思考大家去思考怎麼樣處理對國家比較好好不好好我們第一個"},{"start":26858.387,"end":26858.422,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":26861.853,"end":26871.197,"text":"謝謝昭偉對於這個部分我們有不同的意見因為第一個階段在刪減數的部分明年因為要支付給美方的費用這部分我們同意刪減剛剛昭偉提到的保留6億2430萬保留6億多元的這個部分"},{"start":26889.284,"end":26897.248,"text":"另外第二個因為我們還是希望按照美國的發價書我們算預算編到100多億可是美國的發價書只有55億的額度的預算所以我們希望其他的可以按照我們的預算的編列我們還是希望重新起案"},{"start":26913.794,"end":26936.124,"text":"我再說明清楚我們審查預算500多案到現在如果都達成共識的通過的我們盡量就不交黨團協商但是經由表決的案子原則上交付黨團協商本席沒有意見因為本來程序上就會這樣走我怕這個有個別委員會擔憂我先說出來就是說經由表決的案子"},{"start":26936.825,"end":26942.899,"text":"當然你要保留送黨團協商這個是權利這也是程序所以我們現在先表決金額數"},{"start":26944.485,"end":26970.99,"text":"有關列銷這個案子好稍微我再詢問一下就是說其中一個案子是表決您這張主決議然後第二個我才表決主決議先表決檢列檢列是馬馬委員的檢列然後再來主決議我會唸我再來去唸這個案子的案由我唸一下這個案子的正式的名稱叫什麼他不是寫列銷是寫列銷嗎不是喔我印象不是寫列銷"},{"start":26972.33,"end":26977.032,"text":"陸軍一般裝備之攻擊無人機飛彈系統相關作業節點（攻擊無人機飛彈系統有關預算的部分（"},{"start":26995.891,"end":27023.056,"text":"剪裂45億7960萬保留6億2430萬3000元那個主計單位看一下我這數字沒有念錯好贊成剪裂的同仁請舉手贊成剪裂的請舉手剪裂剪裂贊成剪裂"},{"start":27024.676,"end":27029.377,"text":"反對簡列的請舉手幹議員幾票?5比5為什麼要把困難丟到我這邊來?5比4吧"},{"start":27053.715,"end":27053.895,"text":"反對簡列請舉手"},{"start":27080.731,"end":27108.532,"text":"我剛才講贊成啦這樣講我先問一下國防部簡列的話你們OK嗎各位同仁這個我們把它簡列啦那主決議我希望林議員主決議支持一下這個真的這個在基於財政紀律我把它簡列這個額度那陸軍認為可以執行我剛才講這個表決我就讓它簡列掉我沒有用黨派的思考我把它簡列好不好那主決議我希望大家來支持這個主因為這個主決議已經有"},{"start":27110.413,"end":27111.333,"text":"支持的請舉手支持主決議我現在不能投"},{"start":27139.502,"end":27141.603,"text":"反對主決議的請舉手反對主決議的請舉手大家不要反對啦"},{"start":27167.957,"end":27188.291,"text":"反對已經過半了可以了啦贊成已經過半了不用了啦我們要提的是我們沒有反對你再去採購新的或符合我們需求的可是因為我們是按照預算的考量就是他沒有花那麼多所以我預算我支持你嘛所以因為主決議剛剛你們已經舉過了我們就不舉了來"},{"start":27193.055,"end":27204.36,"text":"以上這一個案子非常感謝這個案子真的顯示本委員會就是委員會中心主義我們在160案到161案有關陸軍司令部一般裝備攻擊無人機飛彈系統預算"},{"start":27212.671,"end":27216.573,"text":"簡列45億7960萬元保留6億2430萬3千元令通過主決議同意陸軍列銷專案在行政院合併預算額度內115億3640萬4千元"},{"start":27235.484,"end":27254.726,"text":"向每洽談反裝甲型無人機徵購事宜借籌購踢量規模爭取更有利價格快速貨裝提升戰力所需預算於後續年度何時編列好我們這兩個案子這樣來處理好謝謝各位接下來第4案"},{"start":27257.745,"end":27267.174,"text":"第4案是有關海軍司令部一般專備潛艦國造第三階段後續艦籌建的預算19億9600萬5000元我們充分的表達也溝通了那無法達成共識來曲曉欣委員"},{"start":27277.709,"end":27282.512,"text":"在這裡跟昭緯做一個建議就是說像剛才我們用其實因為在昨天每一位委員都已經充分發表了自己的看法但是在我們在這個目前的案子上面因為我們都只會寫說凍結刪減多少那並不會有像國防部的立場說沒有凍結也沒有刪減的所以我在想說如果我們要因為沒有共識要進到表決是不是請我們的昭緯另立一個案子"},{"start":27306.445,"end":27306.585,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27328.937,"end":27337.581,"text":"我們待會就這個準博與否來進行表決當然表決案後要進行政黨協商那是權利我待會會講來我們把這個案子印給各位分段簽約不要分段簽約這樣子你決定啊我不喜歡決定"},{"start":27360.316,"end":27362.137,"text":"我可能要回去被停權兩個月不准進黨團"},{"start":27397.832,"end":27398.652,"text":"按由建於原形件"},{"start":27408.576,"end":27426.308,"text":"尚未實施海策考量敵情及強化國軍海上防衛量能以其籌建潛艦國造政策得以維持以建構不對稱作戰能力規劃首年度瓜湖114年度瓜湖編列潛艦國造第三階段後續艦籌建支19億9600萬5000元要求國防部嚴格把關並審慎依驗測其成"},{"start":27442.937,"end":27462.263,"text":"4.原型艦通過海上動態測試後動之以確保守護裝備符合台海防衛作戰需求同意編列這樣的預算但要求你要海測過後才能去動之這個案子我們來進行表決來贊成的請舉手"},{"start":27468.797,"end":27469.097,"text":"反對的請舉手"},{"start":27484.062,"end":27510.832,"text":"反對5票好來謝謝各位那本席贊成把預算保留那這個這個組決議案照案通過那因為這有經過表決我再跟場上的同仁再確認一次我們沒有經過表決的案子好不容易大家一點一滴這樣討論到這裡那刪減動數其實也蠻尊重委員的意見原則上那個部分我們就不交由政黨協商"},{"start":27511.952,"end":27523.229,"text":"但是經有表決的案子我們同意送政黨協商所以張偉我們可不可以再把我們要送政黨協商的兩案再重新敘述一遍"},{"start":27532.126,"end":27547.275,"text":"我現在宣讀大家仔細聽114年度中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（不含國家安全局部分（業已審查完均送請財政委員會會長後提報院會"},{"start":27553.229,"end":27567.214,"text":"請問各位聽清楚請問除160案到161案有關陸軍司令部一般裝備攻擊無人機飛彈系統及268案到271案有關海軍司令部一般裝備潛艦國造第三階段後續艦籌建除這兩案外"},{"start":27579.259,"end":27598.783,"text":"其餘不須交由黨團協商各位委員是否同意同意我拜託民眾黨委員跟國民黨委員回去跟黨團幹部講就這個兩案其他案子不要再黨團協商了大家花很多時間討論了沒有切開的但是就這兩個案需要協商其他不用協商"},{"start":27608.513,"end":27631.972,"text":"我們這樣才是啦 看他們怎麼處理啦他們其實黨團協商他還是可以抽出啦你不管怎麼才是 他們都還是可以抽出協商啦我們這樣寫啦 拜託一下 這個委員的共識我們剛才160案、161案 簡略的要科目自行調整喔 不要忘記喔"},{"start":27636.872,"end":27638.98,"text":"願會審議時請推敗一位委員做補充說明請推敗"},{"start":27644.608,"end":27648.29,"text":"本次預算審查如有預算科目、物質或金額調整授權議事人員處理12月16、18、19日為三天一次會"},{"start":27670.339,"end":27674.861,"text":"我們國防外交委員會算立法院八個委員會的典範了我們今天現在散會"},{"start":27699.589,"end":27699.709,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16389","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16389","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68519061065897f096c5e5a7d9476abbdb378081dad70f87c46c5659b1f912c3ecd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算。(公務及基金預算)\n二、繼續審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度預算書案。\n 【12月18日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-19T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T11:52:00+08:00","duration":12075,"影片長度":"03:21:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 - 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看他 其實送協商對 如果你們真的要解決問題或是真正想要了解問題的話 其實在這邊才有辦法 你到協商 各個委員會都在那邊 其實你也沒機會問啦對 對 啊他等一下會來嗎 還是"},{"start":2306.991,"end":2317.996,"text":"沒有啦保留協商我們今天還會再確認一次啊那如果他確定還要再保留協商那就是送就是送協商嗎對啊啊如果是昨天說保留的話我們今天就會處理對對對對對對對"},{"start":2325.731,"end":2341.498,"text":"就說你們行政單位要不要再去溝通一下如果他可以在今天就是同意你們的這個意見的話就等一下三位之前就處理好不好那你們趕快再去做溝通"},{"start":2344.281,"end":2369.079,"text":"那第8案就是保留協商第9案第9案王玉明委員也是關心勞保財務的議題昨天他也是說保留送協商但是我們希望能夠再跟委員能夠溝通好第9案保留送協商第11案第11案是蘇清泉也是關心勞保財務的議題那昨天其實他已經簽署了但是昨天他說要送保留協商那我們也再跟委員溝通好"},{"start":2372.429,"end":2390.801,"text":"所以如果保留協商的部分請你們趕快禁書再去跟委員溝通要不然你全部都送保留協商其實對你們也不是很好好謝謝蘇委員到了好那等一下蘇委員好了是謝謝"},{"start":2401.85,"end":2425.854,"text":"蘇委員昨天第11案你先休息一下你邊喝水我跟你報告一下昨天第11案原本你已經有簽署就是同意凍結凍50萬原本有簽署後來後來你又說要保留協商那是不是先讓行政單位再跟你說明一下"},{"start":2438.172,"end":2444.975,"text":"同意好好好那第11案就是同意凍結50萬是謝謝謝委員好病棟病棟病棟50萬病棟勞動保險業務50萬"},{"start":2459.502,"end":2463.603,"text":"第4案第4案第4案冰冰冰冰冰冰冰冰冰冰冰冰冰冰冰"},{"start":2479.62,"end":2498.302,"text":"接下來第12案第12案是邱正金委員也是關心勞保財務的議題那原來是同一病棟勞動保險業務10萬元那已經簽署可是他昨天也是說要撤回送血傷我們再跟委員溝通好是那好那"},{"start":2501.082,"end":2517.132,"text":"實案實案那那12案就先保留協商是那你們趕快進數再去溝通一下好謝謝我再重複宣告一下就是剛剛"},{"start":2519.202,"end":2528.651,"text":"第4案是動60萬那剛剛有其他並動的就是第2案、第4案、第5案、第7案、第11案並動勞動保險業務60萬二、四、五、七、十、十一、十五"},{"start":2549.218,"end":2549.238,"text":"有10?"},{"start":2567.104,"end":2579.589,"text":"時有。 時有。 好。 好。 好。 那我再重複一次齁。 第二案、第四案、第五案、第七案、第十案、第十一案、第十五案、病棟、勞動保險業務60萬元。 是。 是。 是。 謝謝召委。 在接下來第18案。"},{"start":2594.84,"end":2618.396,"text":"第18案是陳金輝委員關心的有關我們的人事費的問題那昨天他已經文字已經修正了簽名了他已經簽名了文字修正然後委員已經同意簽名了改組決議嗎改組決議改組決議第18案改組決議主決議委員已經簽名了好那第19案"},{"start":2625.477,"end":2648.134,"text":"第19案講那個是澄清會委員針對發展所的人力結構的部分是不是就是針對人力結構的部分我們就是會檢討既有的業務來做整併然後按照那個實際業務消長來做一個檢討那有需要的話我們會再跟人事總署爭取請證原額那委員已經"},{"start":2652.523,"end":2679.786,"text":"委員還沒簽名我們等一下再溝通好那第19案就保留協商好第21案好第21案是那個蘇清泉委員的部分那這是針對水電費的部分那委員在現場是不是可以拜託委員就是說如果我們可不可以委員在電話中跟水電費部分的有關的話是第21案"},{"start":2681.127,"end":2692.031,"text":"還有第30案翁曉琳委員的跟第31案廖瑋祥的那可不可以就是說我們並動5%然後提出我們的這個專案那個檢討書面報告後來解凍。蘇委員再講那個。"},{"start":2704.862,"end":2709.584,"text":"蘇委員第21案昨天有保留蘇委員報告委員那個第22案有關那個電費的那個部分可不可以就是說我們"},{"start":2723.389,"end":2739.61,"text":"連同這個30案翁曉琳的委員跟因為都是同樣講電費的部分還有31案廖偉祥委員在現場可不可以就是直接就動並動5%然後我們提出我們的節能的相關報告之後呢解凍"},{"start":2742.714,"end":2743.395,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2757.774,"end":2776.306,"text":"就不以為然所以我還是要刪就是刪本來想說刪20%那我現在天氣那麼冷了我就全部你們超過100萬的全部刪5%我怕"},{"start":2778.922,"end":2806.64,"text":"好嗎?那個我跟蘇緣說...我...雖然我很知道你在這個上面...你也可以...可以稍微稍微站起來這裡我們經營事業的人喔少個5%是可以接受的啦10%都可以啦那個跟蘇緣...那你有話好我們就好了我們就...我們就都解開了跟蘇緣說...跟蘇緣說明齁其實昨天我再去更清楚的了解其實因為我們每一個所屬他其實增加的幅度不一樣"},{"start":2808.257,"end":2826.279,"text":"那我說其實我我我我現在弄清楚裡面有幾個幾個增加的原因我想跟還是要跟委員報告了吼第一個就是我說之前原本就編不足這是一個第二個電電費當然有增加可是真的我們這次其實包括接下來有好幾個那種我們的分數他的是他的那個訓練場"},{"start":2827.941,"end":2848.639,"text":"他的因為民眾的需要所以他的業務量會增大或他有新開設新的教室新的班那這真的這個這個電費部分的這個基本的維持我是真的很希望說能不能跟說人表達說我們可以凍結啦那我們可以趕快把這個提升能源效率的報告給交出來"},{"start":2849.707,"end":2866.957,"text":"那我們盡力的在這上面做節約可是因為如果是刪除的話我真的很怕變成是刪到這些民眾所需要的的這些訓練場或者是執訓的中心這個他們的需求我們是真的比較不樂意看到這個狀況所以這部分可不可以跟所有人在爭取說"},{"start":2868.037,"end":2887.084,"text":"能不能我們先用凍結那我們會盡快把節能提高能源效率的經濟的做法的報告趕快提出來這是至少是勞動部能夠做的因為有些部分當然政策上面經濟部怎麼樣這是一個部分可是勞動部能夠做的我們會盡力做啦這樣想跟所有人在做這個部分的爭取可不可以不然就動10%啦"},{"start":2888.605,"end":2904.346,"text":"動10%然後我們提出這個節能精進的做法這樣子好不好因為蘇委員跟這個廖偉祥委員都是一樣的這是31案也是是不是也可以同意動10%我們提出書面報告"},{"start":2905.532,"end":2923.959,"text":"其實我是認為這樣啦我其實是覺得如果你們很很很不想就是很沒辦法接受我們提案我是建議可以保留送協商啊為什麼因為其實我們這樣說有點講其實並不是針對勞動部啊但是我要講這幾年來政府的錯誤能源配比讓左手跟人民"},{"start":2924.719,"end":2931.149,"text":"拿了這個漲電價的錢右手拿了政府撥呃人民納稅錢撥補了3000億那現在呢又再進一步在我們的公部門要調漲電價啊就是電價也是這個從預算去補嗎那全部都是人民的錢嗎"},{"start":2940.023,"end":2967.853,"text":"但是我們的執政黨現在的能源政策還是依然如此所以我覺得第一個不是針對這個真的不是針對我們勞動部但是包含現在的經濟部長還在想要從菲律賓呂宋島運電回來然後他的口頭上還是說這個運電的綠電成本可以是台灣的一半所以我是認為這個東西就是一個凸顯我們中央政府能源政策的問題其實他已經一環一環影響到"},{"start":2969.173,"end":2992.134,"text":"那所以我們是覺得這個部分我覺得可以送協商啦保留送協商我要講一下我們在屏東河山廠我是去了N次了啦最近又去一次我就問河山廠廠長說阿光要看埔里濱那什麼科技人帶北部李宋島那邊重建是真的還假的他說真的"},{"start":2993.393,"end":3015.238,"text":"他說銀包要去了我說那在李松堡北邊種電用光電板然後用海底電纜拉到八旦島然後到恆春從柏蘭比上來然後就接到台電的河山場的輸電系統就供應上來我說這樣可行嗎他說可行"},{"start":3016.829,"end":3019.992,"text":"我說那一度電的成本多少?"},{"start":3019.992,"end":3022.734,"text":"我們經濟部長拍胸脯說四塊啦!四塊!"},{"start":3022.734,"end":3023.395,"text":"你會相信嗎?"},{"start":3023.395,"end":3025.537,"text":"我看你會相信啦!"},{"start":3025.537,"end":3026.778,"text":"其他人我看不相信啦!"},{"start":3026.778,"end":3027.819,"text":"我說電從呂宋島輸到台灣來這樣它會耗損多少?"},{"start":3027.819,"end":3028.799,"text":"耗損!他說要耗損20%以上!"},{"start":3040.373,"end":3063.452,"text":"因為新加坡跑到澳洲去種電因為新加坡沒有地方種所以在波斯那邊種種完的電就用海底電纜輸到新加坡這全世界最誇張的3000公里結果你知道電輸到新加坡耗損多少人嗎50%"},{"start":3066.658,"end":3094.622,"text":"一千多個電器及全國發動這樣人是國不自重這樣這裡是可以改善的我們這河山場就可以繼續繼續繼續發電我就只是覺得不曉得是什麼邏輯然後燒石化燃料又貴石化燃料像現在天氣那麼冷今天OMT又沒有太陽能因為我們屏東高雄最清澈現在都是燒火火力跟瓦斯"},{"start":3095.422,"end":3098.945,"text":"現在實話,現在燒實話差不多佔70幾%那這樣就大家付出慘重的生命、身體PM2.5"},{"start":3108.147,"end":3128.114,"text":"會腺癌、不孕症、心血管疾病都來了沒有人這樣搞的啦所以這個是一個政策錯誤不是你們然後已經跟立法院通過要錢要錢部長都在做留意也知道一千億、一千億、一千億這樣在討一間討三千億啊還在這邊、還在去、還在賬電費我說說我們事業單位白天"},{"start":3136.997,"end":3149.88,"text":"那個夏季電會的時候一度白天的電是八塊多那晚上半夜兩塊多那你總不能叫人家半夜去開刀吧我都排你半夜開刀你要嗎?"},{"start":3149.88,"end":3163.804,"text":"要心肝扁啊所以白天都是用最貴的電所以這個真的是胡搞瞎搞像今天這樣我冰凍起來到這裡都黑暗光電板幾乎零"},{"start":3165.533,"end":3193.345,"text":"現在都在燒石花,現在喔我們現在在照明什麼都用石花所以跟勞動部一點關係沒有所以這是一個一個要跟經濟部強烈的抗議的所以柏中這不是你的事啦那個我不是那個那個所以我是想要說的事情是說因為剛剛因為廖永剛才有提到嘛齁"},{"start":3194.145,"end":3216.178,"text":"我為什麼比較擔心這個案子就是說送協商因為協商真的到時候案量非常非常大是幾千案其實每案都很難好好討論很難細緻的討論那我們在委員會裡面是可以比較細緻的討論狀況的但是真的勞動部相關的所屬其實有很多是民眾會直接來洽公的地方"},{"start":3217.844,"end":3221.547,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":3243.218,"end":3265.467,"text":"報告才使得動智我因為我們這裡面有好幾個跟水電有關的部分我是希望說能不能都爭取跟書委員的這個提案相同的狀況啦我主我的我想要再多補充的是這一點好不好嗯謝謝部長的回應喔第一個其實這裡我也看到一個我本來說明欄也有個就是我認為奇怪的地方喔其實今年你們增列了110萬"},{"start":3269.548,"end":3278.256,"text":"但是其實在112年的時候呢到113年度是減劣了170萬所以如果你都說是因為電價調漲的話那其實這個邏輯上會有點不太通這是第一點"},{"start":3284.862,"end":3307.785,"text":"第二點還是一樣就是說他基本上為什麼要送協商因為他是有關於整個中央政府的我們認為的這個電在這個能源政策上面的問題所以我覺得我想不只我們的部會遇到這個問題各委員會應該都有類似的狀況所以我想這個東西就是保有一併的協商到時候應該是整體的考量謝謝"},{"start":3309.097,"end":3320.31,"text":"我可以補充剛剛委員講的剛剛委員講的是第34案的部分事實上這個部分我們經費本來就是有關一些一般行政的部分有關通訊、電話費、郵資本來都是就是說由各司處來編列"},{"start":3327.398,"end":3343.049,"text":"但是就是說在113年的時候為了統籌運用把各司處編列類似的東西通通都挪移到由秘書處來編列所以金額都沒有增加只是把我編列的地方做了一些調整整併以對預算能夠有更縱觀性的理解"},{"start":3346.311,"end":3371.557,"text":"那這個案子跟33案翁曉琳的委員提的是一樣那翁曉琳委員有提到說希望我們能夠準結支出所以昨天也跟翁曉琳委員提到說360萬動10萬那有沒有可能33案跟34案就是併3併動就是說以化解委員對這件事的疑慮但是這部分跟水電費沒有關你不要自己跳到什麼34案、35案我們現在在講21案"},{"start":3373.377,"end":3376.479,"text":"好,你不要自己這樣跳來跳去,我們這樣怎麼做記錄啊?"},{"start":3376.479,"end":3380.701,"text":"對啊,剛剛就21案就21案啦那21案就病棟10%嗎?可不可以還是想爭取能夠病棟10%啦好不好,就是這個我說水電費的部分"},{"start":3398.632,"end":3414.223,"text":"那我們會盡快把那個提高能源效率的這個報告趕快精進的報告趕快提出來那我們很樂意在這幫部分接受國會的監督那你們什麼時候會"},{"start":3416.232,"end":3417.652,"text":"提出經濟能源的報告嗎?"},{"start":3417.652,"end":3422.394,"text":"我們會盡快,因為現在也會找一些專業者來給我們建議。 我們會找這些經濟部委託的一些節能的一些比如說綠基會、產基會來幫我們。 現在如果併動10%是動了多少?"},{"start":3422.394,"end":3422.894,"text":"併動10%的話大概是200萬左右。"},{"start":3445.219,"end":3467.837,"text":"那其實跟現在減劣100跟凍結100差不多啊但是為什麼要減劣還是一樣減劣就不能再用了啊減劣的話就不能再用我知道我說總金額差不多嘛但是為什麼要減劣的點就還是一樣嘛就是希望在這一塊可以給你們更大的壓力進速去節能總不能夠一直拿人民的納稅錢在各個方面嘛對不對"},{"start":3468.177,"end":3481.664,"text":"那個我們我們在節能跟提高能力效率我們一定會盡力的做可是因為簡略就變他是不能夠使用所以我們很希望是用凍結就凍結10%的方式然後來去處理這個問題因為這裡面"},{"start":3484.085,"end":3507.057,"text":"接下來水電費的部分委員還有很多提案但我們是希望這個做法其實也是一個可以有效督促我們去做能源效率提升的做法我們也會我們其實一定這部分好好做可是不需要去撿到總金額因為撿到總金額真的有時候會攸關到一些民眾相關的權益因為這真的是一個只是一個基本的基本的行政上面的維持對"},{"start":3511.059,"end":3538.426,"text":"因為第一線舊福站要開 欸不要擒勒我對不起好啦那就要併動百分之十啊好謝謝委員謝謝委員所以你們要怎麼併21案跟30跟31我確認一下那個因為是同樣的案子30案翁小林委員如果沒有在現場可以這樣做嗎就是跟水電部分的有關的部分是21案30案"},{"start":3540.56,"end":3541.602,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":3558.209,"end":3577.66,"text":"蘇委員那個第30案因為30案是那個温小林委員但是是蘇委員透過蘇委員這邊來處理的所以可不可以就是21案然後30案跟31案3個都是病動10%然後提出節能的書面報告後經同意好提出"},{"start":3586.362,"end":3588.444,"text":"經委員會同意後解凍。"},{"start":3598.72,"end":3622.414,"text":"科目是主案號是第30案是嗎?主案號是第3?主案號21號案號是21案的書圈前委員第30案的翁小玲委員第31案的要求就是說你病棟是要病棟哪一案的?病棟這三個案子病棟21案"},{"start":3627.006,"end":3629.208,"text":"一般行政基本行政維持那個科目對嘿好"},{"start":3644.065,"end":3668.566,"text":"那個趙偉可不可以我們就是在因為這幾個案等於都是他都是水電費嗎對就是等於是在水電費的這個子科目下都是都是動10萬都10%就是動10%因為他可能在不同的項目動一般行政科目上啊這就不是病棟啦對"},{"start":3672.381,"end":3683.065,"text":"好,併動改科目。改一般行政。一般行政哈。委員不好意思,我們整理好以後再跟我們...11多,11多的10%?4000多萬喔?幾億喔?所以是在不同科目裡面動,這是一個併動的概念喔?"},{"start":3701.713,"end":3718.961,"text":"處長因為他是在不同的科目下面就沒有辦法併動啦可以改科目"},{"start":3720.273,"end":3737.307,"text":"那就是病棟水電費但是翁曉琳委員是透過蘇清泉委員來的可以啦就水電費啊是不是病棟那個主案號是30案"},{"start":3744.509,"end":3745.29,"text":"好,那在這邊宣告齁"},{"start":3771.789,"end":3799.21,"text":"二十一案三十案三十一案並動百分之十那主案號是三十案對好是好第二十二案好第二十二案的部分是蘇清泉委員有關特別費的部分那昨天溝通的結果是二十二案蘇清泉的委員就是比較這個就是凍結百分之十然後提出報告後解凍"},{"start":3801.499,"end":3811.246,"text":"第22案凍結10%然後對提出書面報告後解凍然後23案也是凍結23案圖權及委員也是凍結10%提出書面報告後解凍好23案凍結10%24案23案沒有收到簽署喔那個圖委員圖委員沒來齁沒有沒有圖委員沒來"},{"start":3831.7,"end":3849.55,"text":"我報告一下因為昨天圖委員跟蘇清泉委員說這一些通通都是由陳昭芝委員的決定當成大家共同的決定所以陳昭芝委員說只要我們就是相關的他所提案的內容提出書面報告後統一凍結10%的特別費那圖委員要簽啊"},{"start":3854.072,"end":3875.484,"text":"好我們現在正在正在我們正在正在做處理這樣子剛剛寫的那現在那個底下25262728對那個那個稍微不好意思我做一點我特別費的部分我做一點說明好不好我知道大家其實擔心現在是特別費所謂會不會有怎麼樣送禮的問題"},{"start":3876.789,"end":3905.39,"text":"那我想跟包括在場的委員說明我其實一度原本跟我業務單位說乾脆乾脆在特別費的問題上面我們乾脆我就說這我不用特別費送禮了但是後來我們其實一些屁股工廠還跟我們說他其實還是很需要這個希望能夠我們能夠用這個在送禮的部分或者是有如果有需要的話還是希望這對屁股工廠一些支持所以我在這邊我可以很明確的"},{"start":3906.69,"end":3930.09,"text":"在這邊跟大家說明關於特別費如果有要送禮物部分我絕對只會送屁屋工廠的產品就送我們所屬的屁屋工廠的產品那不會有別的如果要做其他的禮品的贈送的話不會有其他的部分去買其他的禮品絕對不會只會送屁屋工廠的產品那這當然是因為希望能夠對我們屁屋工廠的支持"},{"start":3930.891,"end":3954.611,"text":"那這部分我覺得我可以在這邊委員會跟委員們如果有對於特別費的使用過去有疑慮的話我在這裡可以做這樣的說明好不好這樣子那現在所以在跟陳道芝委員在說那陳委員有簽嗎陳陳陳所以還要先保留嗎"},{"start":3956.215,"end":3970.722,"text":"就是全部保留所以跟委員報告因為是現在剛剛協調的結果現在拿去簽那是不是先保留等到委員簽完之後所以現在是23、24"},{"start":3973.323,"end":3979.566,"text":"23、24、2526已經簽署了26已經改組決議了27、28就先保留27案的話也是先保留我們先請委員簽名之後再送過來這樣子還有22案也是特別費"},{"start":4002.5,"end":4006.242,"text":"那個蘇委員呢?22案有簽嗎?還沒,我們現在等到全部簽完之後一併報告所以"},{"start":4019.848,"end":4039.385,"text":"二十二案保留二十三案保留二十四案保留二十五案保留二十六案改組決議二十七案保留二十八案保留對,都是特別費上面都是特別費然後我們等一下會簽"},{"start":4047.471,"end":4052.334,"text":"三十三案是翁曉琳委員的部分先保留"},{"start":4068.138,"end":4095.988,"text":"對,34案的部分就是剛剛跟廖委員報告的就是33案跟34案是類似的那是不是可以就是360萬然後運動10萬但是這部分我昨天已經說保留送協商了這部分我昨天已經說保留送協商了所以34案要保留送協商然後這部分我也想要再另外請教一下部長"},{"start":4097.429,"end":4120.083,"text":"因為我們昨天的我的提案啊和昨天我們的協商應該是說等有關於基金審查的部分應該說等審計部的報告出來之後還有我們勞動部的檢討報告後再經委員會同意再開始審吧審基金預算啊可是剛剛你好像回答媒體的是說等審計部出來你就要開始審了"},{"start":4122.406,"end":4138.932,"text":"因為我的理解是昨天好像是講說是等審計部報告大家對那五千多萬可是我昨天提案我有講得很清楚啊這個提案我昨天有說啊就是說是代檢討報告送出後交叉比對審計部之做的審核報告那金委員會同意再來審計金預算嗎"},{"start":4139.492,"end":4163.601,"text":"委員我們昨天在底下有協商就是說昨天是基金暫時不審嘛好基金暫時不審那當然就是說我們就是那個審計部的那個報告出來之後我們再請那個那個勞動部這邊所以就是勞動部要一併有檢討報告嗎跟他比對之後檢討報告之後這樣我們才知道還是一樣嗎就是我們要審這個基金預算還是要知道貓膩到底在哪"},{"start":4164.221,"end":4187.237,"text":"啊不然我們還是會遇到一樣的問題啊就是審過了之後發生什麼事我們搞不清楚那這會有一個很大的嚴重影響就是說對於各個科目我們會需要了解什麼在審查預算的每一條的時候我們才會知道說啊原來這一條可以這樣子亂用啊所以我們才可以再進一步的去追問說你是不是可以提供這個東西有哪一些明細我們需要知道才可以才可以來審對不對蘇昭文"},{"start":4189.778,"end":4218.626,"text":"那我們先還回歸到那個第34案就是保留協商好那第35案第三十五案是陳金輝委員關心有關建制新版統計資料庫跟查詢系統的議題那昨天又跟委員溝通了那他同意改為主決議並簽署有簽了嗎簽了第三十五案改主決議"},{"start":4220.049,"end":4238.4,"text":"第三十八案三十八案是翁曉琳翁委員關心勞動資訊業務那有關三十八案昨天已跟翁委員溝通跟說明後他同一策案並已簽署三十八案策案策案對已簽署好四十七案"},{"start":4243.474,"end":4259.32,"text":"事項是我們要很關心那個天災的就天然氣候的變化造成上下班通勤的問題那委員已經同意改成併案凍結預算5%同時等勞動部3月提出書面報告後經同意才能夠動之"},{"start":4260.779,"end":4279.352,"text":"好,第47案病動5%對,然後那是會病51案跟52案病51案跟52案對,因為科目是一樣的好,第49案49案是翁曉琳的提案已經改成是檢列6萬元然後凍結6萬元同時3個月內提出書面報告檢列6萬、凍6萬對"},{"start":4287.389,"end":4308.744,"text":"我們等一下那個先保留保留的部分然後請那個行政單位趕快去溝通我們等一下保留的部分會再回來現在講到哪裡"},{"start":4318.709,"end":4321.491,"text":"五十一案五十一案並動百分之五"},{"start":4340.196,"end":4358.787,"text":"五十二案五十二案也是一樣同一病動五趴然後也是三月提出出名報告後死的動滋五十二案病動百分之五科目不一樣五一、五二跟四十七案是同一個科目的不同科目"},{"start":4366.789,"end":4394.574,"text":"OK好那就5152病棟就5152病棟5152病棟百分之五對好五七五七案跟委員吧五十四案委員有那個簽署了什麼五十七案五十四案五十四案昨昨天就已經處理了啊OK好對啊好"},{"start":4396.758,"end":4424.606,"text":"昨天就病動5%現在是5757案是陳秦委員的提案他已經同意凍結5%然後一樣是然後3個月提出書面報告好57案凍5%6060案委員還在昨天保留那還在寫上在跟委員做報告60是保留對保留所以你們現在還在溝通對"},{"start":4428.922,"end":4431.604,"text":"我能不能請問一下為什麼勞動部這一次在跟委員做預算溝通的速度那麼慢?"},{"start":4458.147,"end":4482.114,"text":"現在已經第二輪保留了嘛 對不對那你們昨天我聽到朝偉就是今天要繼續審查的時候就有要求行政部門要趕快去做協調那到現在我看還有好幾個案子要保留到第二次保留"},{"start":4484.333,"end":4512.868,"text":"我也覺得委員會不是不是因為昨天很多委員就是說要保留送鞋箱對我知道保留送鞋箱我的看法是這樣子就是委員會其實自己也可以做出決定該刪該動也不是非得要在委員會不做決定然後直接處理我只是覺得勞動部當然這一次預算審查裡面"},{"start":4513.533,"end":4540.479,"text":"大家可能對你們的預算會比較嚴格的比起其他部會比較嚴格的審查可是我這樣子從手上聽一聽我覺得你們昨天是沒有找到委員還是真的預算行政部門跟委員會的委員的認知差距"},{"start":4541.665,"end":4570.283,"text":"還很大我現在問的是這個那個跟謠言報告其實昨天我們昨天大概第一輪審到五點多以後其實就請同仁盡快的不管委員是希望第二輪保留或者是希望保留送行協商都要去跟委員們去做溝通那目前看起來有一些溝通有達成共識那剛剛其實有一些有達成共識的部分但確實有部分的案子"},{"start":4570.863,"end":4593.894,"text":"那還在努力溝通中所以剛剛其實比方說幾個案子是還在努力溝通中但是我還是請同仁盡力的去溝通所以有一些已經有共識但有一些可能還沒有那麼快有共識這樣子那我在看就是不管哪一個黨派的委員有很多都是都是提的是凍結案然後要求你們做做出一些一些行政處置"},{"start":4595.134,"end":4618.298,"text":"那這樣子的提案我不知道為什麼也會卡住就是說譬如說我們舉60案來看好了那他凍結了百分之30然後他要求你一個月向本院提出專案報告再同意預算是一整年度的"},{"start":4619.515,"end":4643.202,"text":"因為預算是一整年度的,所以凍結了一部分然後有要求勞動部希望能夠做出一定的行任作為然後體驗報告或者是在委員會報告。像這樣子的案子我覺得勞動部有一些東西並不是一定要很堅持。"},{"start":4644.609,"end":4672.92,"text":"並不是要很堅持我知道你們的處境啦就是我想你們可能是全行政體系裡面會受到最嚴格審查的部會不過應該可以答應的就直接在委員會直接處理我在這裡很久了我就覺得委員會不做決定然後送政黨協商因為政黨協商還有很多黨團的提案"},{"start":4674.519,"end":4689.371,"text":"我們委員會可以直接做決定的做決定我也希望勞動部能夠拿出誠意應該可以答應委員的提案就直接把它答應那真的說刪減數太高"},{"start":4694.149,"end":4711.9,"text":"這個當然就沒有辦法做出同意。 凍結數一下子凍結到很高的比例。 那你們可能年初就會綁手綁腳,這個就必須要溝通。 那假如說凍結數一開始的業務推行不會有很大的困難。"},{"start":4712.941,"end":4733.523,"text":"那委員也有直接要求說說欸就是你一個一個月內提專案報告他就可以同意開動職的欸你們是不是也也好好的思考一下是不是可以可以對好好謝謝好第六十案"},{"start":4734.975,"end":4739.379,"text":"第16案先保留第65案委員已經同意改凍結5%然後3個月提書面報告第65案凍結5%87案"},{"start":4753.523,"end":4778.962,"text":"第87案是曾經委員有關勞動教育的推動委員昨天提到提供資料我們昨天已經有提供給委員辦公室資料了等下委員來我們繼續跟他溝通所以還要再保留對87案保留那個昨天保留的我再講一次昨天保留的等一下如果再一輪沒有來我們就不處理了"},{"start":4780.973,"end":4795.018,"text":"八十七案保留一百零一案跟委員報一百零一案委員已經簽署了對簽什麼對已經簽完了簽什麼"},{"start":4802.148,"end":4829.978,"text":"一百零一案改成主決議已經簽署了好一百零一案改主決議好一零三一零三案因為好一零一已經簽了改主決議已經簽署九十六昨天就改主決議對昨天就改成主決議了好那一零三案那個委員是提保留送行商但是我們會努力再跟委員再溝通"},{"start":4832.349,"end":4848.454,"text":"103保留送鞋商106106案的部分王委員這邊的話那時候是說要保留送鞋商我們還在想辦法跟委員溝通106保留送鞋商111"},{"start":4855.089,"end":4873.131,"text":"一一一的部分一一一的部分呃料委員這邊的話嗯昨天有跟要委員有講那我們是現場可以再跟委員報告一下是說這個案子可不可以爭取到說我們改科目然後把洞結束做一些調整並動"},{"start":4874.81,"end":4894.884,"text":"我覺得就剛剛楊耀委員講的很好啊其實我們凍結又沒有刪除那而且這比例也沒到那麼高嘛是所以我我認為這個東西是不是就就是可以決定就決定了因為我們下面有說三個月內提出專案報告並經同意後就可以解凍啊是那這部分是不是應該要就是按照我的議案是"},{"start":4898.646,"end":4915.215,"text":"那我們就按照委員的意思來做處理好這個單獨的按照委員的這個案子來處理111凍結喔凍結十分之一112112的部分那個呃陳委員陳委員這邊呃陳委員這邊我們112"},{"start":4934.702,"end":4954.689,"text":"112的部分還要再跟陳委員在這邊再做協調所以112保留好113113的部分那剛才那個呃廖委員這邊的話就比照剛剛111這個案子我們就同意同步辦理就按照委員的原來的案子動那個單資的部分"},{"start":4956.525,"end":4963.695,"text":"是病動還是動?因為剛剛廖委員本來不同意病動那如果是可以同意病動改科目?"},{"start":4965.673,"end":4969.575,"text":"剛剛廖委員是說要按照原來的提案。 就我原本的提案不是嗎?"},{"start":4969.575,"end":4976.398,"text":"原本的提案就在那個分支計畫下動。 就是在第15款。 你說跟11案一樣是不是?"},{"start":4976.398,"end":4988.083,"text":"是。您剛剛因為在11案的時候您認為說是要在原來的提案。 那原來提案是在那個分支的向下去凍結。 那金額是比較少的。"},{"start":4988.223,"end":5007.276,"text":"您是說在那個勞動條件及就業平等業務嗎?對,如果是可以的話111和這個案子是不是都可以提到勞動條件及就業平等業務,那我們都是並動一百萬。可是,金額比原來的那個,可以啊。現在一個是加強工資第二節嗎?"},{"start":5009.818,"end":5030.169,"text":"好OK阿那委員同意併動還是我同意併動那剛才111的部分是不是也可以也是用比照是同意併動那這樣的話就會比較跟委員的話前後的案子會比較處理上一致好可以是那科目是什麼科目的話是勞動條件及就業平等業務併動100萬"},{"start":5034.881,"end":5056.731,"text":"所以是110、111、113並動100萬然後這個部分我還是想要強調一下不好意思勞動部113的部分那個對不起局長局長可不可以先不要擋住我好白局長"},{"start":5058.137,"end":5079.617,"text":"我們先不要擋到那個好不好好113的部分因為我之前在質詢的時候是前部長的時候有說現在就是希望這個伙食費這個3000以上人需課稅我們勞動部的部分是不是可以去跟財政部這邊去協商一下把往上拉是OK嗎"},{"start":5080.197,"end":5104.094,"text":"那我們跟委員報告我們有跟發文給財政部他有回覆說他其實在112年的時候他已經把原來是2400調到3000到現在是3000所以我才說目前人不夠啊是不是可以請你們再去協商沒關係那就照我的案我只是要強調這一點好不好那是不是可以委員同意也是比照就並動100萬但科目調整為勞動條件及就業平等"},{"start":5109.778,"end":5138.156,"text":"好那個市長是不是問一下齁剛剛是1111113病棟是病棟100萬11113都是病棟100萬是科目科目是還有跟這個也是跟那個其他的那個勞動條其他各個昨天有一些病棟的案子是都是病棟的"},{"start":5142.716,"end":5158.803,"text":"就病107、108、109、110117、118、119、120、1211919是保留昨天是還保留是因為後面還有一些等一下等一下現在先好啦先處理到113啦齁就病棟"},{"start":5171.54,"end":5188.342,"text":"並動一百萬好好在114114的部分的話呃跟委員呃這是陳委員的部分我們還要再來做做協協協協協調好那114保留協商好因為他昨天說保留協商"},{"start":5190.189,"end":5204.867,"text":"115也是廖委員他有指教那個加班費用超過46小時的那個可不可以免稅的部分那我們有跟那個財政部在確認過他超過46小時有一種情況是我們如果是天災事變突發事件那就拜託勞工加班嘛"},{"start":5205.367,"end":5226.745,"text":"那個部分的話他就不會算在46裡面再來的話他也會比照免稅啊如果是有國定假日那或者是例假日徵求勞工出勤或者例假日也也是因為天災事變突發事件要求勞工出勤的那個部分他也不會把它算在那個課稅的情況裡面但是如果說是再超過了吼"},{"start":5227.486,"end":5255.932,"text":"在超過的話大概就是因為我們也不希望說勞工做更多的時間是過勞嘛那對僱主來講又是違法加班嘛所以這個部分的話大概財政部的話已經有把我們現在法定上面可以不要算到46小時裡面的部分都把它做一些免稅處理了我想要請教一下那你說如果排除現在你剛剛說的那些條件都是叫做非法加班嗎"},{"start":5258.028,"end":5276.414,"text":"有沒有可能有他是合法然後而且他真的必須要因為我有接到這樣的陳情就是說他真的必須要就是超過他必須工作超過那46小時他才有足夠啊所以之前質詢我也有問過所以我也是很不了解那這個到底會會不會有這樣的情況發生"},{"start":5277.754,"end":5302.808,"text":"必須要的話比如說像那個颱風有些搶修搶救齁那些都不用那些都不會算進去那除了那個情況之外呢如果那個情況之外的話還有一種是國定假日比如說現在我知道你剛講過那個也不會嘛對不對那除了這兩種情況之外呢沒有了那其他再過來的話只要超過這其他的狀況之下都是都是再超過就是違法加班就是違法加班對不對嗯"},{"start":5303.752,"end":5308.506,"text":"那無法加班我們也不鼓勵部主或是勞工這樣子再去進行因為有過勞的風險"},{"start":5311.537,"end":5339.55,"text":"但是你們這樣子違法加班的狀況是要給加班費要給加班費違法加班費但是違法加班狀況你們不就是要去稽查了嗎是要稽查要處罰那這個部分的話有超過那個法定上限的時候他的處罰就是兩萬到一百萬這個有申訴也好有專案檢查也好查到都是要處罰的所以基本上就是說在46小時以上有可能會發生46小時以上但是發生46小時以上合法的狀況"},{"start":5340.771,"end":5359.567,"text":"合法的狀況都是免稅的對是這樣講嗎是是那除非是非法非法就會變是他就是本來就會有額外的稅要他有收入嘛他就有額外的收入嘛但是那個部分的話大家就沒有列到免稅的好那如果是這樣的話那這部分我也希望你們可以去好好的加強說"},{"start":5360.928,"end":5362.028,"text":"一一五要併"},{"start":5391.718,"end":5399.266,"text":"病107、108、109病107、108、109病107、108、109病107、108、109病107、108、109病107、108、109病107、108、109病107、109病107、108、109病107、109病107、108、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、109病107、10"},{"start":5413.384,"end":5414.565,"text":"到目前為止要併動的是107、108、109、110、111、113、115。"},{"start":5447.114,"end":5449.315,"text":"報告主席我可不可以詢問一下你說"},{"start":5458.81,"end":5480.267,"text":"其實我還是回到剛剛的問題因為剛剛主席沒有想要再進去這個話題就是所謂的今天洪部長早上有跟記者說就是要等審計部的報告出來之後就要審查基金預算但是我覺得這跟我昨天的提案是不同的那我想要講的事情是我加上一個是代檢討也就是勞動部的檢討報告"},{"start":5482.108,"end":5503.396,"text":"但是我們在12月初的時候12月4號的時候也有一個決議就是勞動部要在一個月內提出檢討報告嘛對啦對不對那其實1月初就有了嘛12月底1月初就可以了嘛那是不是應該就是照這樣而而非部長你早上跟記者說的就是整審計部這個等審計部的資料出來就要審查這兩個應該是一起啊"},{"start":5505.777,"end":5528.526,"text":"那個跟教員說明吼第一個是現在部裡面針對機制的檢討我們現在課證在都一直持續在討論中那我也預計是希望在一個月左右的時間裡面提出這個對這個他的標的是對未來的法官機制的強化"},{"start":5529.69,"end":5541.998,"text":"他的目的是對外把關機制的強化在在一個月的時候我們會提出來現在還一直在討論中那當然我現在沒有沒有我現在不確定的事情是審計部的報告什麼時候會出來"},{"start":5543.652,"end":5567.415,"text":"那當然什麼時候審在委員會裡面審預算這個也當然絕對不會是勞動部自己能夠說的算因為這當然是要委員會的安排但是只是我們是很希望要表達的事情是說因為昨天大家講到說對於那五千多萬的這個資用的狀況不了解然後等等等所以我們後來當然也尊重"},{"start":5568.393,"end":5589.839,"text":"委員會的決定說好像是要等到這個審計的報告正式的報告出來可是我我我我今天早上的表達的是說因為我們確實現在不清楚知道審計的正式報告什麼時候會出來所以我自己很不希望說變成審計的這個報告的出來的時間點變成是我們在做在這個會期裡面做預算審查的變數因為"},{"start":5592.04,"end":5615.718,"text":"正式的會期其實是到12月30號就到年底現在到1月21號了已經演到1月21號了對那可是這裡面還有包括後續其實還包括要協商23讀的部分所以我們真的我還是想要爭取說當然能夠盡快審我們當然希望能夠能盡快審就盡快審了部長兩件事情第一個你剛剛說你們的檢討報告"},{"start":5617.987,"end":5633.76,"text":"你又模糊了因為當初我們委員會也說一個月內嘛那你也答應了所以不是說一個月左右不能超過的對不對第一件事一個月當然就不能超過的嘛當然一個月第二個就是你有特別說針對未來的檢討可是你如果沒有當時委員會"},{"start":5635.181,"end":5659.158,"text":"當初委員會的標的是針對未來把關機制的方案的提出但是我認為這個部分你們也要內部你要想過去因為你們不知道過去發生什麼事你怎麼講未來的檢討那個跟委員會說明當初其實在包括在巡達的時候針對過去幾年的狀況當時其實跟委員的表達是三個月對過去的檢討是三個月"},{"start":5660.185,"end":5672.38,"text":"但是對未來把關機制的提出是一個月在12月應該是前幾次的詢答我們是這樣是這樣是這樣說沒關係這是之前的決議我只要說我們昨天的決議就應該是說待檢討報告送出後"},{"start":5675.932,"end":5689.966,"text":"跟交叉比對審計部的這個所做的審核報告我們再來審查基金預算因為其實昨天我也講得很清楚其實像過去的經驗我們到今年才在把這個113年的救安基金的相關的"},{"start":5691.628,"end":5710.926,"text":"這個預算才把它通過那其實你們也都在使用嘛所以其實並不影響直接的運作但是我們需要知道的還是一樣啦對但是這部分因為早上你有跟媒體這樣講我希望我們兩個和整個委員會的委員和主席可以對評一下我們是不是應該就是這樣我們今天是在審公務預算"},{"start":5712.107,"end":5738.558,"text":"我會議詢答嘛,因為昨天有三、四...對,我們在審公務預算的第二輪。那我們昨天有特別提到就是說我們暫時不審基金。好,基金的部分我們不審。昨天都已經講了。那什麼時候審?對不對?對啊,那當然就是大家有共識的時候。沒有啦,我們今天我們就聚焦今天我們在審公務預算。如果你在這樣講的話,那公務預算我到底是要怎麼做起?我現在會議詢答就是因為我早上聽到部長這樣講。那他也有回答了嘛。好不好?"},{"start":5740.238,"end":5759.728,"text":"就聚焦我們在公務預算我們在公務預算昨天都已經講了基金暫時不處理我希望能夠聚焦啦如果這樣子的話我們永遠都審不完啦我很難得這樣子生氣啊真的是齁好"},{"start":5773.552,"end":5789.02,"text":"好接下來我們審那個115案並動100萬是嗎是好116116的案子就是劉建國委員有簽字文字修正3減10萬凍結50萬116減10萬凍50萬"},{"start":5802.592,"end":5825.371,"text":"119案119案昨天有跟林淑芬委員溝通那他同意改科目為勞動條件及就業平等業務那個文字修正然後病棟200萬那病棟的部分的話是他同意跟其他的其他的各個病棟案一起處理"},{"start":5826.272,"end":5841.902,"text":"那個跟稍微補充,因為昨天這部分應該是談到那個彈性運營流停的部分,因為很多委員都很關心所以後來我們其實是想說把這部分保留跟委員尤其是林淑芬委員討論一個凍結的額度,那現在是"},{"start":5842.702,"end":5857.707,"text":"另一人其實現在同意等於是說動200萬那我們是不是就這幾個相對這個前後的這幾個案子基本上就是用200萬這個額度來做凍結就大家就一致這樣好不好對這是昨天我們討論的脈絡是這樣好所以119並動200好120"},{"start":5863.891,"end":5888.649,"text":"一二零的部分也是昨天要一起討論的說也保留下來的是不是也是並動並動200文字修正並動200科目調整為委員有簽字那科目調整為勞動條件及就業平等業務好並動200一二一一二一也是改委員有簽字然後改科目然後並動200萬並動200一二二"},{"start":5892.969,"end":5921.014,"text":"委員有簽字改科目改文字並動兩百122並動兩百123123委員有同意簽字改科目修改文字並動兩百123並動兩百124124的部分昨天陳委員之前已經有簽署同意那這個案子的話因為都是並動所以並動兩百這個部分並動的部分是不是再重複一次"},{"start":5922.301,"end":5951.09,"text":"到目前為止併動的案子是一百後面還有後面還有後面還有好好好那等一下再一併好了一二四一二八一二八也是范委員的部分他有簽字同意改科目然後文字修正併動兩百好一二八併動兩百萬一三零一三零"},{"start":5953.268,"end":5960.697,"text":"那好,剛剛併案的部分是不是再重複一次,就是併動200的部分?併動200的部分是107、108、109、110、111、113、115"},{"start":5972.131,"end":5994.558,"text":"一一七一一八一一九一二零一二一一二二一二三一二四一二五一二六一二八一二九都是併勞動條件及就業平等業務兩百萬元好再來再來"},{"start":6004.081,"end":6018.689,"text":"130130昨天是王委員保留協商可不可以容許我們再跟王委員溝通130保留協商131131是范委員他同意並動10萬然後送書面報告131並動10萬對並134、135、136"},{"start":6032.079,"end":6046.763,"text":"在133133的部分是陳寅陳委員昨天委員已經簽名同意我們送書面報告經委員會同意以後解凍病棟10萬病棟133病棟10萬對也是病134、135、136跟剛剛前面的131好138"},{"start":6064.668,"end":6070.033,"text":"一三八先保留一三八保留協商號一五二"},{"start":6086.253,"end":6109.308,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們預防重建中心投的薪資那我們這個薪資大概在我們去年的10月已經通過董建制會要在今年要在明年1月1號就是通過10%的加薪這個核准函這個條件案我們也送到勞動部核定在11月核定整個程序已經完成了"},{"start":6109.768,"end":6120.275,"text":"委員非常關心希望能夠再回溯的部分因為既然經過董事會同意已經做完再回去董事會再談對董事會來講會有點奇怪另外就是我們也謝謝委員關心我們寫"},{"start":6125.579,"end":6141.525,"text":"當初的董建設會也有一個決議就是明年7月份要不要再多加3%我們也在做努力那希望在董建設會在這階段的時候這對同仁如果表現OK很好大家都肯定我們的話我們會希望能夠在明年7月份再做加薪那其實"},{"start":6142.725,"end":6165.512,"text":"法人的薪資跟我們公務員的薪資是不太一樣的他們如果真的是有非常好的成績其實不是只有加3%、4%其實都可以看他們的表現來做更好的支持跟委員做這樣的報告所以非常謝謝委員對我們這樣的關心但是因為程序已經跑完了所以委員這個主決議我們真的是有點困難請委員多諒解 謝謝那個跟陳委員說明這個案子可不可以我們再跟陳委員再做一些討論好不好"},{"start":6166.853,"end":6179.222,"text":"你是說這個先保留然後晚一點今天嗎我們再做一些討論保留等一下會議結束前好不好所以我們要一直卡在這裡"},{"start":6181.028,"end":6199.121,"text":"我先講一下好了啦那個就是剛剛聽起來有幾個問題齁就是剛剛講說加薪的部分是要看他們成績看績效是嗎你剛剛是說可以調整的或許會超過不會"},{"start":6201.129,"end":6201.67,"text":"兼職法人"},{"start":6216.049,"end":6218.773,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":6232.771,"end":6240.695,"text":"獲得公務及基金預算：一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總"},{"start":6261.228,"end":6266.785,"text":"是看他的這個服務的案件有多少呢還是還是怎麼樣因為"},{"start":6268.528,"end":6294.213,"text":"你這樣子講很奇怪,因為我不曉得說那個它的績效你要怎麼去看它是,各位人報告好,因為我們說預防重建中心預防部分它跟我們財團組做結合如果我們年年對職災預防不管是私人傷病或死亡或降低所以我們預防中心有提供一些支持跟協助當然就它的績效會展現那這重建部分委員更清楚我們服務的私人傷病的勞工全國展開如果服務量量人都可以處理"},{"start":6294.813,"end":6323.34,"text":"如果他的服務量能變大其實他的前端也是要檢討表示我們職災的預防出了問題啊?當然我也沒有因為我們現在就是有一些就是往下輔導因為有些我們過去私人不是重傷的部分會主動服務我們服務的水線會再往下降讓更多人來做提供我們的服務另外就是新的業務包括我們那個資產霸凌的一些心理輔導資商的部分我們運動中心也跟我們在合作"},{"start":6323.88,"end":6348.282,"text":"因為我覺得這塊是這兩年會最重要的一個業務我們如果讓勞工可以直接有一個專線諮詢協助或心理協助的那個的服務我們這個幼童中心也扮演這個非常關鍵的角色所以我覺得我們這個業務是大家關注那委員特別關心我們同仁真的非常謝謝那我們同仁應該也會覺得有委員支持我們這個心思在我們有好表現大家能夠跟我們肯定非常謝謝"},{"start":6350.203,"end":6375.364,"text":"我跟陳委員補充一下這個案子我這個案子我們我再跟委員這邊再做一點溝通好不好對我說待會溝通是是沒有問題啦可以再繼續溝通只是說因為這個質詢我也講了其實我從關心這個議題很久我從大院質詢我所謂的法人要這個薪水要提升跟著同步要加薪這個事情"},{"start":6376.044,"end":6405.399,"text":"是整體來講只是因為到了勞動部勞動部那你們有這個法人我就單獨挑出來說但是在大院裡面的質詢我是針對所有的這個中央的這個機關的這個附屬法人的單位一起來提的所以我理解法人的性質是不同那所以我剛剛講就是說這個績效你一直在講講說成績怎麼樣績效怎麼樣那你們也要有定個標準出來啊"},{"start":6405.779,"end":6418.994,"text":"而不是說全部都比照好像人家在充業績賺多少錢的那種形式然後再來就是說書長即將要去兼任你是兼任這個董事長嗎?"},{"start":6421.364,"end":6441.115,"text":"回答委員我們這個原來董事長是許民俊許部長許部長那個卸任之後因為現在何部長如果這個組織還沒有完全卸任就由董事兼帶所以我也是董事兼帶這個董事長的職務所以在11月份的董事會是有主席有沒有做但是在名義上就是說其實你就是你就是董事長嘛是"},{"start":6442.256,"end":6456.833,"text":"啊對啦啊所以啊董事長來我們看一下喔董事長喔他在這個明年公務人員調薪之後呢他們的董事長有調薪喔但是呢他帶領的這個法人是沒有的喔"},{"start":6457.934,"end":6462.958,"text":"這樣說得過去嗎?你應該要據以利爭才對,還是你要陪著他們,不要一起加薪?"},{"start":6462.958,"end":6481.313,"text":"報告委員,我的正職是治安署署長。 那兼任的董事是另外兼任的工作。 那我兼任的工作,我跟委員報告,我兼任的工作確實是兼任,依照行政院的規定是我兼任是一個月可以領6000塊的兼任值。 所以我明年加薪是治安署署長的加薪。 所以這跟我們的董事會是有另外不同的..."},{"start":6482.114,"end":6505.38,"text":"但是但是因為因為你在怎麼樣你就是加薪了但是大家都沒有加那個就是一個很諷刺的事情不是嗎我就這個案子我們再跟成員這邊再來做做一些個我要講一下我知道部長要跟我提醒什麼但是好我想講的是我們今天這個加薪他是針對所有的"},{"start":6506.38,"end":6506.6,"text":"好拉謝謝"},{"start":6536.001,"end":6540.764,"text":"好,152案保留162案162案這部分已經經委員同意改檢列70萬檢列162案檢列70萬169案"},{"start":6567.789,"end":6582.512,"text":"169案部分非常謝謝委員這邊支持改併案凍結百分之十那我們會提專案報告經委員會同意後時的動之好169案併動百分之十170案170案陳委員不在那170、170、170都是水電費的問題是不是可以容一起處理是併案凍結百分之十那個蘇委員可以齁蘇委員"},{"start":6595.879,"end":6601.681,"text":"17同意並動那172呢六委員六委員也有經委員同意非常謝謝六委員並案凍結10%提報告水電費"},{"start":6622.128,"end":6630.612,"text":"好那170保留171並動10%172並動10%170保留也是水電費對就先保留你們再去溝通不行的話再回頭184184的話也非常謝謝廖委員這邊我們委員已經同意改病案凍結保險業務100萬元"},{"start":6651.448,"end":6677.578,"text":"病棟100萬185185案部分的話有跟委員這邊做溝通也在這邊特別在跟委員做報告就是有關於勞保精算部分我們今年度是每三年一次今年會來做精算那年底報告出來之後我們會呈送到勞動部這邊來作為政策的參考那有關於經費部分是不是可以懇請委員同意並剛才184還有其他的案子我們病案凍結保險業務100萬元"},{"start":6680.478,"end":6686.881,"text":"我不要併案,我是單純凍結。凍結這個,就不要併案凍結。我就是凍結這個10%,那等你們的這個報告出來,然後專案報告經委員會同意後時的凍結。185"},{"start":6701.122,"end":6725.266,"text":"就凍結嘛對不對就凍結啦不用冰暗凍結啦委員那這個額度可不可以稍微下降一點點因為這個氣化管理的業務它主要是我們辦事處做業務諮詢零貴電話那這部分我們可不可以是可是因為你這個部分也有要研究嘛對不對對那精算報告我們今年就會做完了所以年底我們會出來呈送到勞動部這邊然後做後續政策上的一個參考"},{"start":6725.976,"end":6737.521,"text":"那...那就...那就...10%沒有關係啊。 這個是明年114年的預算。 是啊是啊是啊,所以等你那個報告出來,然後經委員會專案報告後同意就可以啦。 所以就照案好不好。"},{"start":6739.184,"end":6765.177,"text":"因為這個動下來是300多萬,金額有一點大。可是...356萬,還是我們可以凍結50萬。上兆。這個因為都是發民眾的錢,那很多都是油資的費用。不是啊,因為我是10%嘛。是是是。就是其實還是一樣的概念啊,就是這個東西如果你們覺得OK,而且你們其實也準備報告要出來嘛,到時候委員會,這個又是大議題,一定也會討論的嘛。所以這個我覺得就不要討價還價了啦。"},{"start":6768.19,"end":6795.606,"text":"可不可以再跟委員討論一下因為這真的裡面都是油資這不是我們有很大空間的不是有很大我們自己行政裁量空間的事情不過沒有啊就是其實部長就是剛剛我覺得還是一樣像楊耀委員說的概念嘛其實這個東西因為我是我沒有刪減我是凍結那這個議題又是大家都很關注的那我也不是完全讓你沒有辦法行政嘛因為他整個預算是一整年度的嘛所以你現在就是如果我可不可以另外凍結到5%好不好"},{"start":6798.553,"end":6801.093,"text":"如果令安動選的話5%?"},{"start":6801.093,"end":6827.398,"text":"這個有這個5% 因為這真的裡面都是這些遊資的行政費他不是他不是我們自己有很大的財糧說可以用多用少的事情這就是硬支出但是我也會解讀就只要提出報告之後是希望委員可不可以這個可以考慮一下因為這個真的是都是硬支出有些如果有行政財糧的部分我們還有空間可是這都是硬支出所以是因為如果委員當然能夠併案是最好"},{"start":6827.978,"end":6835.824,"text":"但如果另外可不可以是5%?因為這真的加起來如果加起來20%其實對這部分真的是會有一些 那不並按5%不並按5%好不好?"},{"start":6835.824,"end":6836.304,"text":"好好謝謝委員好185萬凍結5% 對"},{"start":6849.136,"end":6859.142,"text":"委員我們提動百分之五提書面報告跟委員這邊之後再動之呃書面報告經委員會統經同意後時的動之好謝謝也是委員會哦195和"},{"start":6885.572,"end":6889.994,"text":"195同意改什麼195改組決議198198的話那個問問人員已經同意改凍結10%提書面報告凍10%211"},{"start":6908.709,"end":6915.545,"text":"二一案書委員的提案那謝謝委員已經簽署改組決議二一一案改組決議224"},{"start":6918.789,"end":6935.347,"text":"二二四的部分林委員的提案已經簽署同意併案凍結兩百萬元那刪除文字責定公告期日等這些文字刪除那已簽署二二四併動兩百萬對那併219到223案"},{"start":6940.968,"end":6965.346,"text":"二一九二一九、二二零、二二二、二二三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三三、二三、二三三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二三、二"},{"start":6967.25,"end":6982.836,"text":"二二五二二五案林委員的案子已經同意並案動兩百萬元已簽署二二五並動兩百萬案二一九、二二零、二二一、二二二、二二三、二二四、二二五、二三三跟二三七"},{"start":7000.073,"end":7004.115,"text":"好,我這邊宣告一次就219、220、221、222、223、224、225並動兩百萬是嗎"},{"start":7013.384,"end":7016.705,"text":"233跟237是昨天通過的是後面的還有233、237、237、230"},{"start":7033.426,"end":7057.64,"text":"跟委員報告這我們23領事我們廖偉強委員的關切主要是以從這個世界經濟論壇來指出目前台灣的企業在發展上最大的障礙已經不再是缺工的問題而已更重要的是技能落差的部分希望勞動部是不是要積極的檢討有關職業訓練業務的推動辦理的一個這個目標跟成果那這個部分跟委員報告"},{"start":7059.261,"end":7077.233,"text":"確實在整個未來的企業的一個技能含量這個會是他在因應外界經營環境中最重要的一個關鍵的一個要素之一所以這個部分我們會積極來配合各個產業主管機關包括經建部門的部分他們所勾勒出來的重點產業所需要的關鍵技術的部分我們會對應在職業訓練的措施不管是協助企業穩定他的在職勞工"},{"start":7081.696,"end":7102.149,"text":"就他在此的人力的需求需要做技能的轉換或者是失業者要重新進到職場的過程當中我們希望他能夠掌握到這些有就業機會的這些產業的領域那針對青年朋友在還沒進入職場之前的一個培育的方向都能夠對接到產業主管機關所勾勒這些產業政策發展的方向"},{"start":7102.549,"end":7125.645,"text":"所以這個部分不管是在數位轉型、淨零轉型這幾個方向上都是我們目前正在推動的一個做法至於委員所關切要凍結我們的一個業務的部分是不是我們就遵照辦理二三零凍結百分之十二三零凍結百分之十"},{"start":7132.111,"end":7149.948,"text":"239239也是我們廖委員所關切的就是臺灣的這個中高齡尤其60到64歲的勞產率的這個議題那針對這個議題其實臺灣在目前這個少子化的發展趨勢之下未來如何強化我們的中高齡朋友尤其是55歲"},{"start":7151.269,"end":7168.696,"text":"五十五歲六十歲以上的這些夥伴是我們的一個整個行政院跨部會一起要努力的方向那目前這個部分我們是朝向想辦法讓這些中高齡朋友能夠穩定留在職場不要離開一旦他離開職場之後呢能夠有意願有機會能夠再回來職場"},{"start":7169.776,"end":7188.093,"text":"即便他已經65歲以上我們還是希望能夠激勵他在他的一個人生發展上不要只是這個賢婦而是有他的一個意願能夠願意回到職場上繼續貢獻他這個能量所以在這一些政策策略之下呢我們是跟各個部會一起來合作不管是從雇主"},{"start":7188.633,"end":7205.419,"text":"願意雇用他的一個誘因乃至於在雇用他的過程當中需要做一些職務上的調整甚至包括工作時間的安排彈性化部分工時化等等這些職缺的開發都是我們目前在努力的一個方向希望能夠提高他的勞動參與也補充我們產業所需的人力"},{"start":7206.328,"end":7217.693,"text":"那至於這個案子的這個這個經費的部分因為大部分都是我們的工作同仁的一個人事費用是不是可以爭取並按這個勞動力發展業務動200萬元就是剛剛219、220221、222、223、224、225、233跟237就跟剛剛那個一樣是不是請委員支持謝謝"},{"start":7237.96,"end":7263.016,"text":"我覺得不病阿我這邊可以把凍結數下降阿5%阿跟委員報告齁這裡面委員所關切的這個救保業務所需的行政事務費裡面有95%已經是人事費了我們257位的同仁在這邊的一個費用是啊所以我下降變成5%因為他還需要其他的行政工作如果這裡面連5%都沒有他只能夠領薪水"},{"start":7264.247,"end":7288.258,"text":"這部分可不可以拜託委員我們這個額度的部分是不是併到勞動力發展業務這邊讓同仁還是有基本的行政這些相關的事好那就等於是往上併然後我一樣凍結10%什麼叫往上併凍結10%勞動力發展主要是說併案啊對不對併案是凍兩百萬但是我不想我的額度想要拉高啊根本那個兩百萬已經是"},{"start":7291.195,"end":7319.725,"text":"那個廖委員你不能讓公務人員只有領薪水不做事啊我沒有啊所以他剛剛就是說因為他這個問題所以才會你如果動這樣會影響到他們的業務嗎所以所以你再考慮一下嘛這個事情這個勞參率的部分中高齡勞參率部分我們也非常care我們這是一定會做的事情而且需要做的比過去更好部長我都知道啦我也覺得勞動部但是可不可以爭取是病案這跟之前的病案的凍結啦然後但這事情是我們一定會做我們報告一定會交"},{"start":7323.568,"end":7335.677,"text":"但是因為這個項目真的裡面大部分95%都是都是人事的薪水這是真的動那200萬占多少如果提高到勞動力發展200萬的話那個救福組"},{"start":7349.423,"end":7371.218,"text":"就是不要不要有沒有空間可以動多少那個廖仁是真的想要跟廖仁再爭取一下說因為這個項目裡面都是薪水那廖仁說我覺得是不是可以請委員就是併動啊跟之前的部分併動可是這是我們一定會做幾趟一趟"},{"start":7372.563,"end":7385.997,"text":"待遇這次的薪水或者是委員我們剛那個頂多頂多可以在目前原提案凍結的科目裡面凍一趴凍一趴是一趴就是一百七是"},{"start":7388.515,"end":7405.883,"text":"那不然就...等一下,那個,書長,因為其實我知道大家很努力啊,但是其實我們最近也都在討論這個議題嘛,那其實看起來效果還是不夠好啊,因為包含著中高齡就業,高齡者就業感受到在職場的這個..."},{"start":7408.384,"end":7430.855,"text":"年齡歧視高達60幾%各國對不對那我想其實我還是一樣我還是要說一次就是說其實我們是用凍結的方式啊我並沒有要把你刪掉那我們希望看到的是說其實你們說你們最近這可能這幾個月以來你們有什麼樣的更積極的作為我認為說有這樣子的報告然後經同意後我們當然就解凍啊"},{"start":7431.435,"end":7457.328,"text":"六人想要說這部分我們一定會做啊然後我也會督促再更大力的好好做可是因為這這個項目裡面真的大部分是絕大部分都是薪水那你覺得要怎麼是不是可以爭取跟文爭取是可以並動跟之前的案子並動哪幾個案子二一九二二零二二一二二二二二三二四二五二三二三三跟二三七"},{"start":7458.979,"end":7459.52,"text":"勞動力發展業務並動200。"},{"start":7484.81,"end":7502.602,"text":"二十二是我們要人所關切的在目前少子女化的一個情況之下勞動力的一個人口減少的一個危機然後這個工作的一個沒有人來地補這種情形要有深刻的一個檢討那這個部分跟委員報告"},{"start":7503.763,"end":7531.745,"text":"目前因應勞動力的一個攻擊的可能的下滑那個工作年齡人口的一個下滑我們現在在處理缺工的議題基本上朝上幾個重點方向第一個我們希望跟各個產業的目的世界主管機關經濟部等相關單位合作是不是產業端在用人的方式跟用人的一個這個效率上能夠透過一些這個職場環境的一個改善工作流程的調整讓他在人力需求的運用的效率能夠再提高"},{"start":7532.265,"end":7560.436,"text":"那如果他的一個需求的效率提高或許在人力的舒緩上的壓力就比較能夠做一些舒緩第二個是在我們的本國勞動力的部分我們目前其實在剛剛我也追尋到包括我們的中高齡的朋友跟我們的婦女朋友甚至這個二十幾歲年輕朋友其實在勞動參與的一個空間上還有努力的一個空間所以這個部分也是我們第二個想要推動在本國的勞動力的供給的一個擴大的部分最後一個是在外國人力的運用"},{"start":7561.196,"end":7573.711,"text":"我們也不排除透過這個跟跨部會一起來確認一些共識再把這個那個外國人力的運用上再做一些適度的補充來整體來縮減我們勞動力供需中間的一個落差"},{"start":7575.017,"end":7601.672,"text":"我想要請教一下21213那個基金編列有18億多給輔導青年就業那114年卻大幅縮水到4億我想要先了解一下這個大幅減劣的原因是什麼是跟委員報告我們當時在編11213的這個青年就業的時候呢是因應疫情期間的整個就業情勢的一個變動那當時我們擔心很多的"},{"start":7602.372,"end":7632.218,"text":"尤其是應屆畢業青年朋友他看到就業市場環境不理想所以他就不大願意去求職那也擔心疫情對他們的一些威脅所以當時我們是針對疫情的紓困措施之一把青年的相關的就業的一些激勵的措施把它放大去做處理那後來在114的這個部分因為疫情已經過了所以我們在113年編114預算的時候呢就回歸到一般我們跟部會之間合作的一些機制跟整個方案的一個內容所以把這裡面的積費把它回到常態去做"},{"start":7632.398,"end":7656.17,"text":"意思就是說過去本來基金多邊的部分是多的希望去輔助那你現在因為疫情後了你把那個額度就改回到降下來是然後把該回去公務預算就在公務預算在這邊還是沒有回去就是等於是公務預算該做的就做公務預算我們就原來就原來的對然後是把基金的部分需求就回歸常軌這樣子的水位"},{"start":7660.137,"end":7687.751,"text":"那基金的那個反正那個就是之後再來看一下基金使用的效果好了是OK那這個案子是不是也可以懇請委員同意也是併剛剛這個案子一樣就是勞動力發展也併動兩百萬元好併動兩百萬謝謝委員二十二案併動兩百萬二四五二四五林月琴委員的提案已經同意併案凍結一百萬元已簽署"},{"start":7689.365,"end":7696.169,"text":"二四六二五一二五五二五六二六一跟二六四這是昨天通過的案子"},{"start":7716.752,"end":7718.072,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案"},{"start":7735.011,"end":7761.578,"text":"好246是那246也是我們林委員的一個提案那也謝謝委員同意併案凍結100萬元已簽署那併案的內容跟剛剛是同一個好246併動100萬248248我們王委員昨天的指示是要保留送協商好248保留送協商249"},{"start":7764.433,"end":7785.814,"text":"249我們林淑芬委員好像不在好保留喔你們趕快再去溝通一下吧同意併案這邊有簽了同意併案是"},{"start":7787.022,"end":7805.742,"text":"請"},{"start":7808.818,"end":7829.546,"text":"跟主席報告第249案林委員已經簽署凍結北分署北分署北分署北分署北分署管理100萬好29凍100萬250"},{"start":7836.792,"end":7854.358,"text":"二五零是我們廖委員的一個提案主要是關切我們北分署前分署長的相關的行政的不當的一個作為那這個部分這個凍結北分署的特別費"},{"start":7855.638,"end":7878.45,"text":"那這個案子委員所指示的指稱包括他的一個驗癮的一個室友跟額度還有他送禮的相關的這個爭議還有軌道燈乃至於用電這個部分我們都可以提供書面的資料給委員參考並沒有列為密件不提供的這個狀況還請委員能夠量查"},{"start":7880.791,"end":7887.364,"text":"那至於凍結北分署的這個特別費的部分是不是可以並"},{"start":7895.317,"end":7912.604,"text":"病249那個跟廖仁說明就是你上面寫的這些資料我們其實都可以提供的而且之前很多資訊其實我在委員會裡面有跟大家報告所以其實應該是沒有列為密件的問題過去做不好我們會檢討不會再犯好你把資料提供給我們然後併案謝謝委員就病249"},{"start":7920.253,"end":7946.831,"text":"病動10020病動100萬252252謝謝蘇委員這邊已經簽署同意病案凍結十分之一病動十分之一252病動十分之一253253目前委員我們還在等還在溝通當中"},{"start":7948.427,"end":7976.108,"text":"二五三保留二五七二五七委員所關切的是我們中分署在因應貿易自由化相關措施有執行率偏低的情形那這個部分跟委員報告我們在ECFA的部分主要是基於預防產業受到衝擊在這個概念之下對於這一些可能受衝擊的產業下的企業乃至於他所僱用的在職勞工"},{"start":7977.77,"end":7989.612,"text":"設法事先掌握他有沒有受到衝擊乃至於他有可能受衝擊之餘的情況之下怎麼樣提供職業訓練讓他能夠在技能上做更充裕的準備如果真的"},{"start":7990.866,"end":8012.263,"text":"不幸遇到需要轉業就業的這些輔導工作我們也可以及早來做介入跟調處所以這個部分有這樣子的一個功能那至於委員所關切到的有幾項執行率偏低的情形首先第一個穩定勞資關係的業務這個部分其實包括我們補助工會辦理勞工教育這個部分放進來整個預算執行率是92%"},{"start":8013.644,"end":8034.805,"text":"另外就業協助的部分主要是我們的相關的同仁他在加班費跟差旅費沒有支用那所以有執行率只有88%那再來取得技術試證的部分則是因為在民眾申請報考技術試證的這個部分的需求比較低一點點所以這個部分我想要不好意思我先答對一下我想要請教一下因為這是中部嘛"},{"start":8036.366,"end":8052.301,"text":"其實就我所知我們這個中部啊包含這個金密科學園區等等的對金科那裡其實在這幾年的貿易戰的這個不管是俄武戰爭或者是貿易戰中其實他們有很多的企業的營業額都降至兩成"},{"start":8053.84,"end":8074.562,"text":"三層,然後我們其實憑良心講也聽到不少這個所謂的超過週休三日也就是無薪假也有聽到這樣的情況所以基本上我想要表達就是說我凍結這個是因為我也很關心就是說這個部分你們有沒有掌握那你未來會怎麼幫助他們所以我是希望說這個部分是不是就請你們提出"},{"start":8076.665,"end":8094.725,"text":"這個報告之後已經同意就可以解凍是這個案子我們在平常對於事業單位經營的穩定性如何對勞工有沒有受到衝擊部裡面有一個定期的監控機制也就是讓地方政府來接受事業單位他提報有沒有所謂實施這個減班休息的一個狀況那這個數據是按"},{"start":8097.588,"end":8123.518,"text":"我記得是至少是一個月就會做一次更新所以到目前為止有關製造業的部分他的情勢尚需平穩那我們會持續來做觀察那一旦如果他有發生減班休息的情勢的話我們勞動力分署所屬的分署會在地直接去做進場去做關切有沒有需要進一步我們提供協助不管是職業訓練甚至在減班休息的過程當中協助這個勞工朋友來減少他薪資的減損的這部分我們都會來做處理"},{"start":8126.98,"end":8144.077,"text":"我自己是同意你的觀察就是我們確實中部有一些產業其實在這段時間裡面會因為國際情勢的狀況會有一些它的波動但是它還是非常非常優秀的產業所以當它遇到波動的時候如果遇到減班休息甚至有些對勞工的影響的話其實我想我們包括我們中分署"},{"start":8144.677,"end":8161.47,"text":"或是我們在中部的這些單位其實應該要更大程度扛起一定的工作跟職務可是我是想說想跟料人爭取說這部分是不是就是說是不是可以用不用凍結的方式就是說因為我們我們在這部分我自己我自己也相當關注這件事情"},{"start":8162.23,"end":8188.45,"text":"那尤其接下來的國際的情勢又有不確定的狀況所以我們會請這個我們中部包括這個相關的分屬其實必須密切尊重這可不可以用一個主決議的方式或者不用凍結的方式因為我們還是希望這些資源能夠把事情可以處理得更好啦那尤其是在業務其實未來的挑戰也不一定小尤其國際情勢越發的不確定這樣子我懂所以我還是一樣說我覺得其實是用凍結的啦"},{"start":8189.551,"end":8213.244,"text":"那我是用凍結的方式我沒有要去刪裂所以如果我是希望說在這個部分可以更加的盯緊我們的部內對於這個部分的掌握還有可不可以有一些相關的報告可以提供給我們同意之後就解凍所以我在想這個部分是不是就照案那這部分就認為了我們書面報告會盡快來提供257案凍結100萬"},{"start":8219.048,"end":8243.465,"text":"是那258是接下來258案是我們蘇信權委員的一個提案那已經簽署同意併案凍結百分之十好258併動百分之十262262也是我們蘇委員的提案阿也謝謝委員支持已經簽署同意併案凍10%"},{"start":8245.429,"end":8251.173,"text":"並動百分之10好263263這部分我們還在確認263保留265265也謝謝書委員這邊也簽署同意並案動百分之10並動百分之10265266266也還在確認當中266保留271"},{"start":8267.714,"end":8284.815,"text":"二、其一是林慧琦委員關心的案子有關資產霸凌跟心理健康諮詢,謝謝委員您簽署改病案凍結職業安全衛生業務50萬,謝謝委員林委員 不過我還是要講一下我覺得真的很感謝我覺得"},{"start":8285.796,"end":8312.899,"text":"書案這邊真的在113年有做真的也替幼兒園的幼教老師感謝你們我希望未來持續還是要去做這些事情因為他們事實上是最辛苦的一群很認真的而且都是女性工作者你們有回復他們權益可是大家同時這個我也要提醒的是那治安署也要體訓我們的勞檢員來那個加班黑素外部"},{"start":8313.819,"end":8328.714,"text":"議員的不友善的問題可能要去處理,但也希望明年真的還是對於這一群過去一直被忽視的幼教老師們的權益還是要透過你們持續一樣跟今年一樣能夠去落實。"},{"start":8330.095,"end":8343.385,"text":"我們的勞動檢查來維護他們的權益,否則這一群人長年以來都是比較是被我們的雇主剝削的人的時候可能他們一直又不會去申訴,所以要拜託你們,謝謝"},{"start":8353.172,"end":8358.055,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管二、繼續審查勞動部主管二、繼續審查勞動部主管二、繼續審查勞動部主管二、繼續審查勞動部主管"},{"start":8380.461,"end":8384.164,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管預算案"},{"start":8405.137,"end":8406.958,"text":"二、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管．一、繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":8421.245,"end":8434.098,"text":"二八零併動五十萬元以上是不是可以跟都有報告一下以上包括二七一二七六二七七二七九二八零二八一都是併動五十萬元謝謝"},{"start":8445.568,"end":8446.508,"text":"職業安全衛生業務"},{"start":8459.678,"end":8461.6,"text":"我附送一遍好了。 271、276、277、279、280、281。 併案凍結50萬。 是。謝謝召委。"},{"start":8484.551,"end":8485.151,"text":"283保留協商317保留317保留330"},{"start":8511.206,"end":8519.711,"text":"330那個蘇委員所關心那個水電會那我們一併就是動10%那這個委員幫我們簽署謝謝昭委謝謝蘇昭委員331因為陳昭之委員現在不在我們是不是先保留"},{"start":8526.055,"end":8541.411,"text":"好331保留334334是葉勤委員關心那個身障者的一些相關的一個重建啊相關的視訊服務那這個部分我們會來做研究那委員也同意給我們改組決議是可以嗎委員好謝謝委員334改組決議335335也是"},{"start":8547.057,"end":8556.913,"text":"月秦委員的就是有關於那個照顧價跟國際性的比較這個部分那我們也會來提出相關的一些研究那委員也同意給我們改組決議,委員這樣可以嗎?好謝謝"},{"start":8563.937,"end":8590.804,"text":"三四零也是剛才蘇委員所提到相關的水電會那這個我們也是動百分之十那科目讓我們調整為一般行政的水電會項目的科目好並動百分之十那另外一個就是昨天有一個三四一這個部分那我們昨天會後也有跟劉建國委員溝通那也取了委員的諒解那委員這邊就是說不刪"},{"start":8591.944,"end":8607.052,"text":"十萬塊,不減類十萬塊那一樣是可以讓我們併動一百萬那這併動的部分就我們早上也真的召委的同意就併召委的329案那這個部分劉建國委也簽署"},{"start":8608.206,"end":8620.32,"text":"三四一病棟100萬對那科目是一樣在研究所的勞動研究所的科目下調整好好好好謝謝呃報告委員會吼"},{"start":8623.544,"end":8638.68,"text":"現在我們這個公務預算的部分剛剛保留的部分這是第一輪已經先處理那我們等一下會休息10分鐘那在這10分鐘這之中剛剛又有保留的部分請這個"},{"start":8639.981,"end":8665.081,"text":"我們所有公務單位趕快去做這個溝通那如果我在這邊做宣告休息後我們處理剛才保留的部分那如果委員不在場就是依委員會先前宣告不再處理如果是說保留的話就是委員如果不在就不再處理那如果原本就是說要保留送協商那就交協商"},{"start":8666.158,"end":8672.983,"text":"好那所以有保留的部分會保留協商的部分趕快再找委員去做溝通好我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8691.203,"end":8691.844,"text":"我真的還蠻短的"},{"start":8715.883,"end":8719.204,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8732.109,"end":8742.333,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動"},{"start":8750.896,"end":8767.283,"text":"二、繼續審查勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於勞動部主管委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及基金預算案關於"},{"start":8767.483,"end":8789.582,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":8790.703,"end":8791.443,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":10100.967,"end":10114.116,"text":"好現在繼續開會那我在這邊做一個宣告因為我們早上第二輪的部分有的是保留送院會協商有的是保留那"},{"start":10115.97,"end":10137.096,"text":"我先這個先宣讀一下就是保留送院會的這個案號那我不知道我一案一案念那如果說剛剛跟委員溝通已經有溝通然後也有達成共識的等一下行政單位再做一個說明我先講那個保留送院會協商的第8案第8案委員已經簽署改組決議好第8案改組決議"},{"start":10145.438,"end":10157.384,"text":"第9案委員沒有簽署所以第9案就是保留送院會協商第12案委員已經簽署改併動50萬那併動的案子就是2、4、5、7、10、11、12、15併動60萬等一下好"},{"start":10188.58,"end":10194.862,"text":"第二案、第四案、第五案、第七案、第十一案、第十案、十二案、十五案、病棟、勞動保險業務60萬、第十九案"},{"start":10204.512,"end":10228.11,"text":"第19案保留送協商好第19案保留送協商34案保留送協商34案保留送協商103案103案已經跟委員溝通改為動5萬元改為動5萬元委員已經簽署然後提書面報告好103案動5萬106案"},{"start":10238.468,"end":10249.594,"text":"報告106案的部分王委員沒有再同意變動原來的所以就是保留送協商114案委員已經簽字同意並動200萬跟還有112案剛才也是"},{"start":10262.355,"end":10263.216,"text":"並這幾個案凍結兩百萬"},{"start":10289.877,"end":10305.449,"text":"114病棟兩百萬130王委員的案子保留送協商130保留送協商138保留送協商138保留送協商248"},{"start":10317.267,"end":10319.229,"text":"第二輪保留的部分這個第22案"},{"start":10344.434,"end":10370.855,"text":"二十二案、二十四案、二十五案、二十七案、二十八案、二十七案、二十八案、二十七案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十七案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案、二十八案"},{"start":10373.264,"end":10380.327,"text":"23案23案保留但是陀委員沒有在現場那就不處理23案不處理好33案33案360萬動10萬委員與簽署360萬動60萬動10萬360動10萬委員與簽署好33案360萬動10萬60案"},{"start":10403.306,"end":10425.64,"text":"六十案保留,但委員沒有簽署。好,那就不處理。好,八十七案。第八十七案,曾經委員已經簽名同意而改為主決議。八十七案改為主決議。一百一十二案。一百一十二案,曾委員已經同意那修正病棟勞動條件及就業平等業務兩百萬。"},{"start":10429.301,"end":10458.107,"text":"好一百一十二案並動兩百萬一百五十二案包委員那個我們再跟委員再修正文字通是不是要再等一下哪一個一百五十二案我們成立委員的好那就先保留一百七十案一百七十案委員已經統一並案凍結十分之一提書面報告一百七十案並動十分之一好兩百五十三案"},{"start":10463.067,"end":10467.25,"text":"253案委員已簽署同意並252案動十分之一已簽署。 2563案委員已簽署同意並案262案簽署動十分之一。"},{"start":10482.879,"end":10505.773,"text":"263案病病動十分之一是266案266案委員簽署同意病案動十分之一病265案已簽署266案病動十分之一317案報告委員現在是在委員報告室談一個快要好了什麼時候再等我們一下下謝謝委員好那317先保留331案"},{"start":10514.059,"end":10518.64,"text":"並330跟334委員已簽署好331並動10%好剛剛有先保留的部分我們再等一下吼那我們現在先宣讀公務預算主決議文字修正部分"},{"start":10544.246,"end":10557.392,"text":"第二十案修正默據為原要求勞動部提出職業安全衛生法相關規劃第三十二案修正倒數第二句默三字為節省工廠四個字"},{"start":10559.039,"end":10575.133,"text":"第43案修正末二段為需請政府研議勞保及具上限調整可行性給予勞工必要且充分保障請勞動部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告"},{"start":10576.454,"end":10581.298,"text":"第44案修正後段為請勞動部協助相關企業或職業工會參與國際交流的機會與發展據以落實推動我國工會國際交流之空間第45案"},{"start":10592.168,"end":10614.905,"text":"修正末段為縱上所述請勞動部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會針對勞動部主管法規公開裁罰部分進行全面盤點研議是否修法提出書面報告第48案刪除凍結文字第50案原請勞動部確實依政府採購法及預算相關規定辦理"},{"start":10619.093,"end":10646.732,"text":"第56案請勞動部應就飯店運輸物流及汽車業積極研擬相關對策並於三個月內提交書面報告至立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會第59案請勞動部就研議非典型勞工僱用型態之未來發展趨勢於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":10648.561,"end":10653.207,"text":"第62案及第64案修正如下請勞動部確實推動國際及兩岸交流"},{"start":10657.369,"end":10682.518,"text":"第66案請勞動部更續辦理相關業務於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出111年至113年辦理情形之書面報告。第77案請勞動部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出提升工會組織率協助措施書面報告。"},{"start":10683.658,"end":10704.596,"text":"第92原請勞動部建立量化之績效指標以呈現業務辦理績效並將辦理情形做成書面報告提供立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會第93案原請勞動部應加強宣導避免移屬遭受二次打擊"},{"start":10706.072,"end":10733.525,"text":"第9494案刪除凍結文字第140案原要求勞動部於三個月內提出勞工保險財務財務改善因應對策書面報告並刪除條例至完善相關配套措施之文字第一41案並於一年內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出完整可行性評估"},{"start":10735.475,"end":10753.16,"text":"第142案委員要求勞動部於6個月內提出財務改善因應對策書面報告。第143案修正默劇為並於半年內向立法院報告推動成效。第144案"},{"start":10754.898,"end":10772.508,"text":"敬請勞動部在政府持續撥補並恢復最終給付責任且不會降低勞保年金給付前提下根據研謀如何確保勞保財務穩定運作之因應對策第145案研議加強推動勞資協調團體協約相關做法第146案"},{"start":10781.04,"end":10803.457,"text":"刪除職業工會之勞資爭議及之文字並刪除默劇研究二字第一四期案原建請勞動部向地方政府說明釐清前開實務一役使其處理工會籌組申請時更加明確令刪除研議結果之五個字"},{"start":10804.639,"end":10826.599,"text":"第149案原請勞動部持續精進小規模事業勞工之健康檢查保護機制及落實相關作為並於6個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會就強化中小企業勞工健康保護之現況具體作為及未來政策規劃提出書面報告"},{"start":10828.151,"end":10856.03,"text":"第156案原要求勞動部針對國公營事業所屬球隊之勞動權益保障狀況含勞保加保進行盤點與分析並提出相關改善建議第166案減少向外租用需求並研議逐年降低租金支出以節省公帑第173案及174案"},{"start":10857.699,"end":10881.405,"text":"請勞保局準決開支妥善運用預算。第176案原請勞動部勞工保險局執行計劃時落實專案管理確實案進度完成驗收。第177案原請勞動部勞工保險局編列預算時因本準決原則以節省公帑。"},{"start":10883.021,"end":10912.221,"text":"第178案原請勞動部勞工保險局未來在執行計劃時依預算法及採購法辦理並於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第182案建議勞動部勞工保險局立即展開針對外送員強化納保規範宣導以確保取等保險權益令修正一個月為三個月"},{"start":10913.441,"end":10939.344,"text":"第183案政府宜嚴苛勞保財務改善因應對策避免影響廣大勞工退休及生活安定性原請勞動部向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。第186案請勞保局準決開支妥善運用預算。第187案"},{"start":10941.599,"end":10951.069,"text":"請勞保局研議相關配套措施。第188案請勞動部勞工保險局持續強化催收程序。"},{"start":10952.498,"end":10977.999,"text":"第191案修正手段為此種作法雖基於社會保險權利義務對等原則並有勞保條例第17條及勞動部106年12月4日韓式規定為據但一般公法與債權另外刪除四有不妥令查之文字還有修正末段第二句之後為"},{"start":10980.287,"end":11008.401,"text":"請勞保局就該等做法所收之效益向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。第192案原請勞動部勞工保險局根據強化提升職業工會與會投保核實性。第193案請勞保局於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。"},{"start":11009.79,"end":11035.892,"text":"第196案建議勞保局請示勞動部諮詢相關醫學會嚴理調整前項施能審核基準並請勞保局向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出相關書面報告。第199案刪除凍結文字203案刪除末段及倒數第二段第二句"},{"start":11036.67,"end":11052.026,"text":"另外第三句首三字為應加強第二一八案請勞動部勞動力發展屬於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第二二八案"},{"start":11053.449,"end":11068.6,"text":"請勞動部勞動力發展署向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第二二九案請勞動部向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第二三一案請勞動部檢討改善"},{"start":11071.328,"end":11097.118,"text":"第二三四案請勞動部提出書面報告詳細說明增加緣由第二三六案緣要求向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第二四零案一個月改為三個月第二四一案刪除簡略文字第二六零案以及二六九案一個月改為三個月"},{"start":11098.154,"end":11126.201,"text":"二九七案刪除凍結文字三零二案請職安署就勞工健檢於六個月內提出精進規劃之書面報告三一一案原要求勞動部職安署於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出精進改善措施書面報告第三一二案原要求一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面檢討報告"},{"start":11128.041,"end":11141.908,"text":"第320案,原請勞金局於3個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出內部管理改善書面報告。第325案,一個月改為3個月。第332、333、345及347案修正為,原要求勞動部"},{"start":11150.375,"end":11176.703,"text":"勞動及職業安全衛生研究所與預算通過後三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。第8案請勞動部限期於一個月內向本院提交勞保財務改善書面報告。"},{"start":11181.175,"end":11209.045,"text":"第3案請勞動部於一個月內向本院提交書面報告第6案原請勞動部勞工保險局與投保單位有財務困難者適時提供彈性支還款方式並於網站及函件皆視處理程序13案對勞工"},{"start":11210.953,"end":11235.998,"text":"提撥率低然有有效提振等。 原此請勞動部於一個月內向本院提交書面報告。 14案請勞動部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出研議勞工保險條例修法可行性書面報告。 16案"},{"start":11240.64,"end":11254.583,"text":"請勞動部於一個月內向本院提交書面報告。 17案請勞動部對主管保險在監理業務在經濟檢討。 18案應依業務切實控制預算之執行以達經費運用效益。 26案"},{"start":11265.036,"end":11292.463,"text":"勞動部應採源頭減少同仁加班如業務需求與辦公時間外經單位主管指派加班緊急性立即處理電話通知電子通訊軟體電子郵件交辦皆依核算申請加班單位主管核實審認核給加班費或補休假"},{"start":11294.636,"end":11322.834,"text":"二十九案勞動部因督導勞動部勞動力發展暑期所屬研議促進新住民就業補助作業要點之修正納入規劃中華民國之外國人三十五案經勞動部說明請依建制其誠切實管控進度執行如期完成供各界查詢應用"},{"start":11326.033,"end":11348.615,"text":"案 專案報告改為書面報告案 請勞動部就飯店運輸物流及汽車業積極研擬相關對策並於三個月內提交書面報告至本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":11351.701,"end":11377.942,"text":"六十三案請勞動部務實推動國際及兩岸交流六十八案請勞動部於114年2月28日前針對工會長期無法召開會員大會得否依工會法第37條規定向法院申請解散公告解釋令函並"},{"start":11381.064,"end":11410.196,"text":"向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。69案請勞動部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會針對協助勞資協商中鋼航運船員下船後工作權益保障及降低大陸籍船員比率等事項提出書面報告。"},{"start":11412.298,"end":11423.831,"text":" 83案請勞動部向本院提交書面報告。86案請勞動部向本院提交書面報告。87案請勞動部向本院提交書面報告。91案"},{"start":11434.929,"end":11454.342,"text":"又考量貿易自由化下之國際雙邊與多邊關係均將使勞資雙方受到影響,原請勞動部於一個月內提供立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會因應貿易自由化為勞資雙方辦理近三年之活動書面報告。95案請勞動部"},{"start":11464.125,"end":11485.166,"text":"勞動基金運用局針對我國企業在八旦島工廠被指控的違規事項進行事實之釐清而若確有相關違規事實則應行使股東提案權要求相關企業改善並將相關"},{"start":11487.014,"end":11516.103,"text":"及相關事實釐清及後續處置情形向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告。 96案勞動部應加強宣導避免此類個案持續發生。98案請勞動部於一個月內向本月社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告。"},{"start":11519.175,"end":11545.733,"text":"101案 原要求勞動部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。 102案 要求勞動部一個月內向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告。105案 以音樂會之名宣導並不適當英語檢討。"},{"start":11550.712,"end":11558.806,"text":"127案要求勞動部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告132案"},{"start":11564.328,"end":11588.921,"text":"勞動部應於二個月內就船員契約性質認定署函贈機關與勞動主管機關全責四項向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告以釐清疑議137案請勞動部於一個月內向本院提交強化宣導書面報告"},{"start":11593.358,"end":11617.396,"text":"153案,於6個月內提出相關修法研議。 168案,請勞保局盤點各縣市人口分布狀況,持續加強服務效能並積極推展醫化服務,就照顧到偏遠地區民眾。"},{"start":11619.673,"end":11646.652,"text":"於6個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出經濟措施報告181案 勞保局應有經濟措施以保障民眾給付權益189案 原請勞動部勞工保險局持續強化催收程序190案 請勞動部勞工保險局按準決原則編列預算"},{"start":11651.24,"end":11677.63,"text":"195案建議勞動部勞工保險局應精進職災審核時效保障被保險人權益204案協助比對資料211案請於三個月內提出專案報告212案請落實各項結論措施"},{"start":11682.055,"end":11708.08,"text":"213案請勞動部勞動力發展署於三個月內提出書面報告並說明近三年健檢人數及環境佈置情形215案請勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬於三個月內完成促進新住民就業補助作業要點之修正納入規劃中華民國之外國人並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":11710.912,"end":11730.205,"text":"216案,原要求提出改善管理計劃,限期於三個月內向本委員會提出書面報告。 232案,請勞動部勞動力發展署於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。"},{"start":11735.363,"end":11755.422,"text":"235案請勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。 243案請勞動部勞動力發展署向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。 254案刪除凍結數"},{"start":11762.452,"end":11790.41,"text":"二百五十九案請落實各項結論措施二百九十九案有違建構職場安全及推動防災之目標原始限期於一個月內一個月向會防委員會繳交書面報告二百九十二案一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面精進報告"},{"start":11793.226,"end":11810.675,"text":"313案,要求勞動部職安署向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出對待檢機構管理相關書面報告314案,請職安署限期於一個月內向衛防委員會繳交書面報告323案,於三個月內提出書面報告"},{"start":11822.557,"end":11850.391,"text":"三百二十四案刪除檢列數三百三十四案於一百一四年底將相關研究成果向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告三百三十五案於一百一四年底以政策提出或立法準備為目的"},{"start":11852.83,"end":11879.025,"text":"提出國際照顧價比較研究原請勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生所向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。 337案勞動勞動及職業安全衛生研究所應積極研擬改善現行勞工及育嬰政策之缺失"},{"start":11882.483,"end":11896.472,"text":"請勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生所於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出相關精進婦女再就業書面報告。 338案刪除凍結數。 342案研議如何針對公部門建構友善職產提出進行研議。"},{"start":11914.206,"end":11939.018,"text":"請勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所與預算通過後三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。 343案與預算通過三個月針對勞檢員職產經濟與待遇改善進行研究提出書面報告。"},{"start":11943.354,"end":11945.656,"text":"346案,一個月改為三個月。"},{"start":11958.302,"end":11979.629,"text":"好,那供預算、主決議、文字修正的部分全部都宣讀完畢。那剛剛我們這個保留的部分152案是在做一個說明?是,跟照報告也謝謝陳議委員。我們這個有做文字修正。主決議已經簽名了。已經簽署了。好,所以152案改主決議。對,文字修正已經簽名。已經簽署,是。"},{"start":11980.389,"end":11989.4,"text":"你們文字修正的部分先宣讀一下,等一下主席台這邊再宣讀一次好,那就是從第三行開始為維護勞工權益建議勞動部應比照所屬工人員"},{"start":11996.047,"end":12005.109,"text":"114年薪資調整,同意該中心3%的行典並盤點檢視基層員工薪資及勞動權益、逗點以實際行動帶頭示範捍衛勞權之決心。好,那317案"},{"start":12019.893,"end":12023.916,"text":"陳昭志委員已簽署同意改併動10%併動的科目是278315、316、317科目是職業安全衛生業務的健全機械設備及氣球安全源頭管理的業務費一般事務費3445千元"},{"start":12046.351,"end":12056.179,"text":"所以317並動百分之十?對,百分之十次。好,那全部都?"},{"start":12062.281,"end":12085.184,"text":"好那做以下決議中華民國114年度中央政府總預算關於勞動部主管公務預算全部已經審查完略提報院會討論院會討論前需交黨團協商那有關114年度勞動部主管基金預算令則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束散會"},{"start":12184.034,"end":12186.107,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"}]}},{"id":"16393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16393","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea19061065897f096cad9f551ce5fa921f78081dad70f87c4690a27d261f498dc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。二、審查客家委員會函送財團法人客家公共傳播基金會114年度預算書案。【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-19T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-19T14:00:00+08:00","duration":19785,"影片長度":"05:29:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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