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我很清楚特別預算就是排除整個預算那你"},{"start":195.183,"end":199.236,"text":"來我請教來我有一個片子讓你看來那個是不是把它播放"},{"start":202.093,"end":206.454,"text":"這個情況更加讓高雄市未來的財政更加的困難非常不公平的對高雄市是一種懲罰"},{"start":230.302,"end":237.531,"text":"今天我們最大的訴求這一次的財劃法一定要優先排進去所以我們認為最優先應該是財政收支報告今天我們委員長怎麼可能再讓這個議題讓馬來西亞再回分呢"},{"start":248.304,"end":264.393,"text":"所以我們認為這次臨時會財政法院是一個很重要的優先法案不是你馬英九拿三十幾個簡單的法案來耐以投訴來一目了視的在這上面你不收署而已我們要讓馬英九很清楚財政法院是民進黨黨派永遠第一優先法案這就是我們的立法院"},{"start":264.873,"end":293.346,"text":"當年我在編預算的時候常常是徹夜南北半夜醒過來是全身冷汗從我當主席以來第一件事就是把民進黨執政縣市長約請來黨中央一起大聲的呼籲要趕快通過財政收支化分化這不只是民進黨的問題現在更從藍營的縣市長也紛紛跳出來可知這是不分藍綠的而財政收支化分化攸關地方縣市政府的正常運作"},{"start":293.686,"end":296.63,"text":"好我相信齁從這些影片大家清清楚楚"},{"start":310.061,"end":326.082,"text":"律營這些過去當過首長的換了個位置就換了個腦袋那本席是認為說今天修訂財劃法是讓這個因為地方講實在話很多縣市首長"},{"start":326.943,"end":342.381,"text":"他們真的是嗷嗷待哺而且每一年都透過我們中央及這些民意代表來反映希望能夠爭取很多的這些建設需要中央可以協助補助今天我認為說"},{"start":344.122,"end":365.516,"text":"因為財政部用中央積極支援地方財政的這個立場來透過中央統籌分配稅款搭配一般性的補助款以及計畫型的補助來挹注地方財源難道現在的執政黨我們各位官員這個就是最好的政策嗎"},{"start":366.755,"end":369.496,"text":"跟委員報告我們財政部不會反對財化法來修正但是我們是希望要充分的討論我跟委員報告過去我們但是充分討論"},{"start":384.54,"end":410.917,"text":"要你們提版本你們根本連版本都不提嘛我先跟委員報告幾個數字我們對中央政府對地方政府的依註到114年是達到超過1兆151億那麼這一次沒有經過充分討論的情況之下又額外釋出3753億然後呢一般的博出款又不能夠往下降"},{"start":411.457,"end":431.411,"text":"所以在這種情況之下一定會衝擊到中央的施政而且會影響到對地方的協助的能力所以說行政院批評財務法修正後中央政府的國庫會變得空虛未來天災來臨時地方政府要自行的等於是"},{"start":432.972,"end":457.002,"text":"去勇敢面對那我請問次長卓院長對國庫空虛這麼有感受那為什麼沒有辦法體會到地方政府也需要這個虛權的恐急就是非常需要錢他們真的是嗷嗷待哺已經到了無以復加的地步才會因應其判財化法的修法"},{"start":457.862,"end":486.111,"text":"你有什麼看法跟委員報告卓院長他有發布聲明他說他的發言有被這個斷章取義了但是我們可以想我們現在對中央政府的資源已經達到超過一兆以上如果再額外釋出3753億的話一定會弱化對地方財政的資源一定會嘛不管是如果碰到一些建設也好或者是說災害也好"},{"start":486.431,"end":512.828,"text":"那這幾年一直超增,難道你這個都沒有考量進去嗎?連續四年喔!而且超增一兆八千多億喔!所以我剛才跟委員報告過稅收只是總預算的一部分,它的時增數超過預算數但是只是總預算,但是我們還有特別預算所以我們中央是要看整個財源目前還是赤字的"},{"start":513.208,"end":513.748,"text":"我是覺得我們我剛才一直在講"},{"start":530.214,"end":531.355,"text":"我是覺得這樣啊在討論過程當中執政黨委員在這邊也充分表達意見"},{"start":552.037,"end":573.734,"text":"但是好像一直都沒有被接受管事長難道中央要集權又集錢地方政府要透過這個搖尾起聯才能夠讓我們掌權掌權的關奈眼神現在這樣是我們執政黨應該奉行的聖經嗎"},{"start":575.751,"end":590.619,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個叫財政收支劃分分我知道啊也就是說你在分的時候跟支就要同時要考慮也就是說權跟錢要同時要考慮那只有釋放三千多億所以財政部前中央並沒有集權的問題"},{"start":591.84,"end":611.673,"text":"沒有局前大家看太嚴密這些縣市首長為什麼剛剛那個影片難道你沒有看嗎對不對這個都是齁那些影片都是他們在包括前院長蘇貞昌包括歷任很多縣市首長他們的心聲尤其"},{"start":614.074,"end":639.42,"text":"賴總統他在當總統以前在台南市長這是他講的話我們是把他的話帶到今天讓大家來了解你不要換了一個位置就換了個腦袋而且真的很多我們地方的縣市他們真的苦哈哈的而且講實在話這個是不分藍綠因為財化法修訂以後每個縣市"},{"start":641.314,"end":668.416,"text":"就照財化法的規定該給要給那你行政院長又說以後的災害中央完全沒有責任然後又帶到什麼教育啦什麼國防啦講實在話我認為像這樣的官員真的實在是換了位子換了腦袋又來欺騙老百姓是很不應該那你今天早上又去開記者會我看要看他看記者會內容怎麼講"},{"start":669.096,"end":696.632,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們的對中央對地方的採取的依註從民國103年那時候才五千多億但是現在成長到114年到超過一兆以上所以這一部分中央從來沒有集錢跟集權所以基本上我們充分來支援那你釋放給地方讓地方能夠自主哪裡不好啊所以我就覺得要錢跟權要同時好一點要你們提外你們也不提"},{"start":697.512,"end":697.532,"text":"韓國瑜"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時20分）質詢前先給我幾分鐘，我要問問主席。"],["主席：問我？"],["林委員德福：主席，我很尊重你，我們與會各列席官員還有本會的同仁，今天早上我們要開會，其實上個禮拜議程已經列定了、已經送了，今天莊部長沒有來，本席真的有一點意見，但是我還是尊重主席，因為主席讓他請假，為什麼我這麼想法？第一個，因為他10點鐘要在行政院開記者會，他跟陳淑姿主計長兩個人要開記者會，我認為開記者會絕對是針對上個禮拜通過的財劃法，講實在話，你要面對啊，而且……","好，可以開始了，我認為這個要面對，為什麼？因為他對於我們上個禮拜通過的財劃法，請阮次長上來，好不好？來。"],["主席：請阮次長跟林德福委員說明一下。"],["林委員德福：因為立法院上個禮拜通過財劃法修正案，媒體報導財政部深表遺憾，我請問阮次長，面對立法院多數席次立委要求財政部提出修法的版本，而且我們有做過主決議說這個新會期財政部一定要提出來，已經經過半年，但財政部對面對多數的民意，可以說置之不理啦。我認為通過以後，你才來說深表遺憾，你們會不會認為感到羞愧？會不會？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，財劃法這一部分因為涉及到財源的分配……"],["林委員德福：這個我都很清楚，阮次長，你會不會認為感到很羞愧嘛？"],["阮次長清華：不會啊，我覺得這個東西涉及到資源的分配，所以……"],["林委員德福：阮次長，我統計過，在今年度（113年度）到年底最少超徵4,900億，112年超徵多少？3,860億，111年超徵5,237億，110年超徵4,227億，總共4年加起來一兆八千多億，平均每年超徵多少？4,500億。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們雖然……剛才委員提到的是總預算裡面稅收的實徵數超過預算數，但是如果我們把總預算跟特別預算合併來算的話，我們這幾年幾乎都是赤字……"],["林委員德福：你特別預算不能併在裡面，你不要跟我來這一套，我跟你講，阮次長，我很尊重你，但是我很清楚，特別預算就是排除整個預算。","來，我有一個片子讓你看，是不是把它播放？","（播放影片）"],["林委員德福：好，我相信從這些影片，大家清清楚楚，綠營這些過去當過首長的，換了位子就換了腦袋，本席是認為今天修訂財劃法，而且講實在話，地方很多縣市他們真的是嗷嗷待哺，每一年都透過我們中央及這些民意代表來反映，希望能夠爭取很多的建設，需要中央給予協助、補助。今天我認為財政部用中央積極支援地方財政的立場，透過中央統籌分配稅款搭配一般性的補助款以及計畫型的補助來挹注地方財源，阮次長，難道對現在的執政黨官員而言，這個就是最好的政策嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我們財政部不會反對……"],["林委員德福：不會反對……"],["阮次長清華：不會反對財劃法來修正……"],["林委員德福：但是你們部長說非常地遺憾啊！"],["阮次長清華：但是我們希望要充分地討論，跟委員報告，過去我們……"],["林委員德福：但是充分討論，要你們提版本，你們根本連版本都不提嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我先跟委員報告幾個數字，中央政府對地方政府的挹注在114年超過1兆151億，這一次沒有經過充分討論的情況之下，又額外釋出3,753億，一般的補助款又不能往下降，在這種情況之下一定會衝擊到中央的施政，而且會影響對地方協助的能力。"],["林委員德福：行政院批評財劃法修正後，中央政府的國庫會變得空虛，未來天災來臨時，地方政府要自行勇敢面對。請問次長，卓院長對國庫空虛這麼有感受，為什麼沒有辦法體會到地方政府也需錢孔急、非常需要錢，真的是嗷嗷待哺到了無以復加的地步，才會殷殷期盼財劃法的修法。你有什麼看法？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，卓院長有發布聲明說發言被斷章取義，但是我們可以試想，現在對中央政府的資源已經超過1兆以上，如果再額外釋出3,753億的話，一定會弱化對地方財政的資源，一定會嘛！不管是碰到建設也好、災害也好……"],["林委員德福：這幾年一直超徵，難道都沒有考量進去嗎？連續4年喔！而且超徵一兆八千多億！"],["阮次長清華：剛才跟委員報告過，稅收只是總預算的一部分，實徵數超過預算數只是總預算，但是我們還有特別預算，中央整個財源目前還是赤字的，如果再額外釋出三千七百多億的話，中央的財政一定更加困難。"],["林委員德福：所以你認為錢放在自己的身上才有安全感，這是中央政府應該有的心態嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我剛才一直在講財劃法不是不能修，而是要大家充分溝通討論……"],["林委員德福：但是已經給你們一次又一次，而且一樣在立法院這個地方做過主決議，你們遲遲不理，現在又去行政院開記者會，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得在討論的過程當中，執政黨委員也充分表達意見，但是好像一直沒有被接受。"],["林委員德福：阮次長，難道中央要集權又集錢，地方政府要透過搖尾乞憐才能夠得到掌權、掌錢者的關愛眼神？這是現在執政黨應該奉行的聖經嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，這個叫財政收支劃分法……"],["林委員德福：我知道啊！"],["阮次長清華：也就是分跟支要同時來考慮、權跟錢要同時來考慮，目前中央並沒有集權的問題。"],["林委員德福：有沒有集權大家看在眼裡，這些縣市首長為什麼……剛剛的影片難道你沒有看嗎？包括前院長蘇貞昌、歷任很多縣市首長的心聲，尤其賴總統當總統以前在當臺南市長講的話，我們是把他的話帶到今天，讓大家瞭解，不要換了位子就換了腦袋。而且真的很多地方縣市苦哈哈，這是不分藍綠的，因為財劃法修訂以後，每個縣市就照財劃法的規定，該給的要給，行政院長說以後的災害中央完全沒有責任，然後又帶到教育、國防……講實在話，我認為像這樣的官員換了位子就換了腦袋、欺騙老百姓，是很不應該的！今天早上又去開記者會，我要看他記者會內容怎麼講。"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，中央對地方財源的挹注在民國103年才五千多億，現在104年成長到1兆以上，所以中央從來沒有集錢跟集權……"],["林委員德福：沒有嗎？"],["阮次長清華：所以基本上我們充分來支援地方的需求。"],["林委員德福：你釋放給地方，讓地方能夠自主，哪裡不好？"],["阮次長清華：所以我覺得要錢跟權同時考慮。"],["林委員德福：要你們提案，你們也不提，甚至於……我看他今天記者會內容怎麼講，我認為這個已經修過了，你們要提各種方法去抵制，沒有關係，我們再看好了。謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝德福。","接者請吳秉叡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158372","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98d658a6e027b09a01c24503a7538def067a36da23f15a7fa6e1d9fb632310eb915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:56:28 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大家好好談談 到現在為止宮廷會只聞樓梯響 不見人下來根本就是故意拖延我 主張納管署聊三兄弟 但是我不反對說那這個議題大家各界 宮廷會來談一談"},{"start":366.289,"end":384.577,"text":"在公聽會要說到做到這種故意拖延的方式就是在拖延我們政府對薯條三兄弟過去種種惡行惡狀的管理這些所有被薯條三兄弟"},{"start":385.814,"end":387.815,"text":"所以副主委我最後這幾秒鐘我要跟你講"},{"start":412.757,"end":439.057,"text":"公聽會要嘛就開麻煩你跟這幾位我們立法院的同仁們也跟他們回報說要嘛就開開同意但是不要再拖延可不可以是我們會溝通第二點再證告數條三兄弟這是政府全民給你一個從良的機會"},{"start":441.388,"end":441.868,"text":"今天登記花園的委員經已詢答完畢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1355,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時56分）謝謝主席！我趕50分鐘的車回來講5分鐘，那我只能講金管會，請副主委。"],["主席：副主委。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：副主委，明年的專案金檢方向很對也很好，這三大方向就是要針對不動產專案金檢、針對防詐專案金檢、針對虛擬資產專案金檢，這些方向都很對，但我不懂的是為什麼在防詐專案金檢部分你們只納入銀行、信用合作社和電資機構，為什麼不把券商納入？券商納入的重要性是什麼？就是說當有我們老年民眾不幸往生之後，在統計遺產的時候，證券也是一個很重要必須申報的項目，好巧不巧，上個月才剛發生一件券商裡面的遺產申報承辦人不小心洩漏了資訊的案子，洩漏了資訊就被詐騙集團運用去欺騙了這些未亡親屬，所以我認為既然要做防詐專案金檢，那麼除了銀行、合作社以外，券商也是很重要的一環，應該把它納入，可不可以？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：跟委員報告，目前為止，券商是由交易所那邊處理，專案金檢的部分都必須要有排定，是不是請副局長說明？"],["賴副局長欣國：報告委員，現在是在打詐專法授權子法這邊訂定的有關防制詐欺犯罪危害的應遵循事項裡面……"],["王委員世堅：你就簡單的回答我，把券商納入有什麼困難嗎？"],["賴副局長欣國：委員關心的這部分，檢查局將來會納入規劃。"],["王委員世堅：納入對吧？"],["賴副局長欣國：是。"],["王委員世堅：納入就是了，就這麼簡單嘛！第二點，針對不動產專案金檢部分，記得在4、5月份我有問過金管會有關本國銀行貸款給建商，超過18個月還沒有動工的這些空地貸款金額有多少，結果你們說「本局尚無蒐集是項資料」，在我跟本國34家銀行一一詢問以後才知，天啊！加起來貸款給空地18個月沒有動工的竟然超過2,000億元，達2,180億元之多！嚴重危害了中央銀行當初立意良善的這個規定，所以我希望你們明年度這三大金檢專案中的不動產專案金檢，應該要納入這些建商空地貸款超過18個月沒有動工的部分，可不可以？"],["賴副局長欣國：報告委員，關於土地超過18個月沒有動工的部分一直是在我們檢查的範圍項目裡面。"],["王委員世堅：一直在你們的檢討範圍項目內？那當初你們怎麼回答我「沒有」？就是因為你們回答說「沒有」我才會那麼氣，還好你們新上任的這位彭主委很好，在我面對面質詢他的時候，我說這個空地貸款有2,000億元喔，他馬上答復我正確的數字2,180億元，整個金管會不當一回事，也沒有統計，說你們沒有這一部分的查察可以報給我，等於是你們不曉得，說這個應該是中央銀行管的，金管會裡面唯有彭主委一個人知道這個金額。","我的發言時間只剩30秒，最重要的是我要跟你提薯條三兄弟，經濟部主導金融消費保護法主導了幾十年，在那邊虛擺著，好不容易金管會翻箱倒櫃把它找出來，在我們這些立委在立院推動租賃金融公司管理法還沒有完成立法前，當然金保法是最好的方式讓薯條三兄弟從良，接受我們政府納管，然後我們就可以依這個法要求債務協商，結果讓金管會去跟薯條三兄弟談了三個月，薯條三兄弟無動於衷，甚至另外還找了我們其他委員──當然每個委員有不同的看法，我們都尊重─說是要開公聽會，大家好好談談，但到現在為止，公聽會是「只聞樓梯響，不見人下來」，根本就是故意拖延！我主張納管薯條三兄弟，但是不反對為這個議題大家來開個公聽會談一談，開公聽會要說到做到，這種故意拖延的方式就是在拖延我們政府對薯條三兄弟過去種種惡行惡狀的管理，這些所有被薯條三兄弟以高利貸吸血方式欺凌的民眾們，他們每天殷殷期盼著，至少政府有一套法令即金融消費保護法可以讓他們一吐冤屈，只是協商而已耶！所以副主委，我利用最後這幾秒鐘跟你講，第一點，麻煩你回報這幾位我們立法院的同仁們，公聽會要嘛就同意召開，但是不要再拖延。可不可以？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，我們會去溝通。"],["王委員世堅：第二點，再正告薯條三兄弟，這是政府、全民給你一個從良的機會，希望他們好自為之。可不可以？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["王委員世堅：希望我們預算審查前能夠有一個好消息讓我知道，好嗎？謝謝副主委。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝世堅。謝謝！","今天登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，委員詢答未及答復還有請補充資訊者，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復；委員另有要求期限者，從其所定。","報告跟詢答都已經完畢，委員王鴻薇、陳玉珍所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158371","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158371","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a980bf8046f0834c1b2c24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3dbf89052436b86d4f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:42:20 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報告委員那我想委員一直很關心這個問題都知道現在就在院會黨團協商現在只差簽名嘛如果能夠在這禮拜二或五之前能夠通過的話三讀通過的話那一切銜接就比較沒有問題禮拜二不會啊明天的是"},{"start":500.569,"end":501.35,"text":"你們有任何問題要趕快想辦法來克服"},{"start":524.278,"end":551.248,"text":"因為這個知識體大對最好的方式就是看你們在我在半年前我就說一直說會來不及會來不及你們說沒關係慢慢來慢慢來慢慢來搞到最後都是在最後一秒鐘這個怎麼樣來推動臺灣成亞洲區的理財中心資產管理中心外商外資看到你們所有的行政效率是如此的"},{"start":552.521,"end":563.774,"text":"沒有按照進度來做變來變去可能過可能不過通通沒有答案那這樣子外商怎麼來臺灣啊大家怎麼樣有好的信心啊"},{"start":565.083,"end":565.663,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":585.441,"end":587.082,"text":"金融大樓現在經營的業績情況如何?"},{"start":609.083,"end":624.099,"text":"臺北金融大樓在今年我跟您報告一下我們的業績在今年是54.3億元的營收那麼年增加了7.43%到了2013年全年營收渴望突破60億"},{"start":625.901,"end":645.903,"text":"表現還不錯啦預算已經優於預期了對表現都一直還不錯但是提醒賈董事長我看你還很年輕但是沒有那麼年輕金融大樓裡面的員工大概有多少人我們員工將近有400人400人平均年紀多少"},{"start":648.621,"end":655.969,"text":"我告訴你跟20年前跟十幾年前比起來平均的年紀已經開始老化了"},{"start":658.356,"end":678.653,"text":"你現在也許只是過客或者是你會不會幫忙想一下它的永續發展未來10年的101怎麼辦20年的101怎麼辦我知道在過去1014整個亞洲地區的最高樓現在排名多少現在排名第6第6了你看節節敗退"},{"start":680.194,"end":694.579,"text":"那怎麼樣維護伊尼的光芒讓他不斷的發光發亮這是你董事長要去面對的問題啊是過去所有董事長來的齁都是過客的心態反正來個3年5年就要換人啊"},{"start":695.859,"end":713.131,"text":"你的心態是怎麼樣?我的心態呢就像您說的我覺得這是剛才很多委員也給我這個方向就是說它不只是臺北101它更是臺灣101所以其實101是非常重要的那在未來呢我覺得在101"},{"start":714.252,"end":717.153,"text":"希望你可以運用你的亮麗的外表還有你的健康的形象"},{"start":736.981,"end":752.64,"text":"讓101可以成功的走到地方走出去現在電商發展的也很好可是101的部分好像遲遲沒有什麼比較多的規劃比如說立法院立法院現在大門中山路這個地方大門旁邊"},{"start":753.661,"end":753.681,"text":"是"},{"start":784.089,"end":792.963,"text":"謝謝羅明才委員今天我們請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員葉延之、葉延之、葉延之委員不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1286,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時42分）主席、各位委員、各位出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請財政部阮次長還有金融監督管理委員會陳副主委？"],["主席：請阮次長和陳副主委。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：本席長期為了地方建設的發展，在財委會這個地方一直大力的爭取修正財政收支劃分法，希望可以落實照顧地方，讓地方好好發展。這幾天全身腰痠背痛，但是再怎麼樣的辛苦我覺得都值得，因為本席算一算，也為新北市爭取到應該大概每年增加超過300億元的統籌稅款，對我們地方來講，我覺得真的是好不容易，25年了，終於往前跨了一步。不過在這裡我要謝謝財政部，因為你們的小氣、因為你們的迴避、因為你們的不作為，逼得沒辦法，立法院只好自己來推動，截至目前為止，財政部還是沒有版本啊！你們現在有沒有版本？"],["阮次長清華：目前是沒有，但是我跟委員報告，其實我們是覺得財劃法經過那麼多年沒修正，不是不能修，而是我們希望大家能夠儘量多一點討論。之前……"],["羅委員明才：這個話我已經聽了快10年了，上個會期我當召委的時候在這邊苦口婆心，大家講事情就好好來談、好好來做，可是財政部不曉得為什麼全部都失能又失智，部長也不作為，統統都不做，然後就一直等著，仰賴上面關愛的眼神，現在整個都亂了套，中華民國的推動、我們所有事情的進展可以全部都看一個總統的臉色嗎？我們國家到底是總統制還是什麼制？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，事實上在這個……"],["羅委員明才：我們好不容易培養的文官體制，大家心裡都有一把尺，該怎麼樣來照顧地方推動，不過這一次這樣整個可以說是荒腔走板，坦白講，我不樂見立法院所有推動的事項統統都要靠拳頭，統統是要靠「打天下」打來的思維，這個是可以討論的嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我贊同委員的意見。"],["羅委員明才：另外一個就是執政黨──民進黨也太沒自信了啦！22個縣市，若你們做得好，民進黨做得好，統統可以拿回去啊！也不見得這個金額下放到地方，永遠都是哪個黨在做啊！錢到的地方就是照顧所有的全民，在小學班班有鮮奶、每個教室有冷氣的時候，還有規定在吹藍的或綠的小朋友嗎？沒有嘛！都是一體適用的啊！所以大家心態應該要持平，端看到底有沒有需要。坦白說，這次財劃法通過後，多的預算全部加起來是多少？"],["阮次長清華：是指額外釋出的，是吧？"],["羅委員明才：對。"],["阮次長清華：額外釋出是3,753億元，另外……"],["羅委員明才：3,753億元這個數字其實也不大，今年的稅收大概超徵多少？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得這個很容易被誤解，為什麼……"],["羅委員明才：你回答就好了。"],["阮次長清華：是不是讓我簡單說明一下？"],["羅委員明才：今年大概稅收會超徵多少？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在實徵數大概會超過預算數。"],["羅委員明才：超過多少？"],["阮次長清華：大概是3,500億元到3,700億元，這個東西不能夠直接用來……"],["羅委員明才：對嘛！超過的金額其實不止這個啦！去年也是超徵，有多少？"],["阮次長清華：去年應該也是大概二、三千億元吧！"],["羅委員明才：其實這10年來，每年的稅收幾乎都超徵，有一年還超徵5,000億元。所以我覺得財政部的心態不要當作一個守財奴，錢應該花在刀口上，下放給地方，讓地方可以更成長。"],["阮次長清華：委員，可以讓我簡單講幾句話嗎？"],["羅委員明才：財劃法通過了以後，到現在聽到的都是一片叫好，新北有12位立委，沒有支持的就把名字公布出來，看他回去地方怎麼對地方的父老交代！地方嗷嗷待哺，我們有多少地方的捷運、公路、學校、長照還有教育等等一些基層建設，大家都需要幫忙，都是仰賴中央，可是我們在地方看到中央常常大筆一揮，軍購就是4,000億元，大筆一揮不到1分鐘，就在財委會這個地方一次通過8,800億元前瞻預算，天啊！你們可以這樣搞！只把一年大概不到十分之一多的金額下放給地方。過去賴清德總統所講的、多少民進黨立委所支持的就是希望中央多一點經費給地方，不是這樣子嗎？為什麼換了一個時代、換了一個時間就換了腦袋？難道不需要照顧地方嗎？所以我在這裡還是要謝謝財政部，因為你們的不作為，反而讓我們地方多出大概好幾十億甚至上百億，但是我希望還是要把錢花在刀口上，我們監督的機制可以更強。","另外兩位首長都在這邊，現在因為整個思維讓立法院很多要排的議程都跳過，當沖降稅現在的情況怎麼樣？會不會過？因為只剩幾天了，若不過的話，你們有沒有什麼應變措施？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：先跟委員報告，當沖降稅這部分如果沒有過的話，其實我們成交量的流動性會下降三成。"],["羅委員明才：所以希望它能過吧？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我們非常非常希望，而且業界真的很緊張。"],["羅委員明才：所以我們希望政治的紛爭放一邊，中華民國要進展，我們有今天，明天後天太陽都要升起，大家還是要過日子。對不對？政治性的操作趕快過了就過了，我們要回歸正軌，為老百姓多做一點事。請問財政部，現在進度到底怎麼樣？"],["阮次長清華：當沖降稅目前還在協商當中，有一個問題就是……"],["羅委員明才：來得及來不及？"],["阮次長清華：希望可以來得及，因為明年1月……"],["羅委員明才：怎麼樣做才來得及？聖誕節快到了。"],["阮次長清華：其實現在問題不大，就是年限的問題，這是一個。"],["羅委員明才：年限就是3年，那個不討論，那個政黨都協商好了。"],["阮次長清華：另外的部分是不是請署長來做補充說明？"],["羅委員明才：好，請宋署長說明。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，我想委員一直很關心這個問題，都知道現在就在院會黨團協商，現在只差簽名，如果能夠在這禮拜二或五之前三讀通過的話，那一切銜接就比較沒有問題，但是萬一……"],["羅委員明才：禮拜二不會啊！明天就是處理同意權的問題。"],["宋署長秀玲：那就要請委員多幫忙了，不然的話，接下來的因應措施其實是會非常複雜的，我們現在也在同步跟證交所、券商這邊討論怎麼樣去因應各種可能的情況。"],["羅委員明才：你們有任何問題要趕快想辦法來克服，因為這個茲事體大。"],["宋署長秀玲：對，最好的方式就是看能不能在……"],["羅委員明才：我在半年前就一直說會來不及、會來不及，你們說沒關係慢慢來，慢慢來、慢慢來，搞到最後一秒鐘，這要怎麼推動臺灣成為亞洲區的理財中心、資產管理中心？外商外資看到你們所有的行政效率是如此的沒有按照進度來做，變來變去，可能過可能不過，統統沒有答案，這樣子外商怎麼來臺灣？大家怎麼會有好的信心？所以希望你們速度快一點，有問題趕快想辦法。好不好？"],["阮次長清華：謝謝！也拜託委員多協助，讓這個案子早點完成通過。"],["羅委員明才：沒問題，有問題跟我講，我們儘量趕快來協商，來推動一下。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：另外一個就是今天講到101。"],["主席：請賈永媫董事長。"],["羅委員明才：101是臺灣一個非常重要的地標，包括年輕人跨年，我們都一起在那邊倒數計時過，那是我們共同的回憶，你是新任的董事長，請問金融大樓現在經營的業績情況如何？"],["賈董事長永媫：我跟您報告一下台北金融大樓的業績，今年的營收是54.3億元，增加率7.43%，113年全年營收可望突破60億元，已經優於預期了。"],["羅委員明才：表現一直都還不錯，但是要提醒賈董事長，我看你還很年輕。"],["賈董事長永媫：沒有那麼年輕啦！"],["羅委員明才：請問金融大樓裡面的員工大概有多少人？"],["賈董事長永媫：我們的員工將近有400人。"],["羅委員明才：這400人的平均年紀是多少？"],["賈董事長永媫：平均年紀我還真的不是很確認。"],["羅委員明才：我告訴你，跟二十年前、十幾年前比起來，平均年紀已經開始老化了。對101而言，你現在也許只是過客，或者你會不會幫忙想一下它的永續發展：未來10年的101怎麼辦，未來20年的101又怎麼辦。你知道在過去101是整個亞洲地區的最高樓，現在排名多少？"],["賈董事長永媫：現在排名第六。"],["羅委員明才：你看已經落到第六了，節節敗退，要怎麼樣維護101的光芒，讓它不斷的發光發亮，這是你董事長要去面對的問題啊！過去來的所有董事長都是過客心態，反正來個3年、5年就要換人，你的心態是怎麼樣？"],["賈董事長永媫：我的心態就像您說的，剛才很多委員也給我指出方向，我覺得它不止是臺北101，它更是臺灣101，所以其實101是非常重要的，那在未來我覺得101必須要有更多的競爭力、更多前進的方向，在這個部分，委員請容我到明年的第一季再跟您報告，我們在這邊現在都已經做了準備了。"],["羅委員明才：希望你可以運用你亮麗的外表還有健康的形象讓101成功的走到地方、走出去，電商發展得也很好，只是101的部分好像遲遲沒有什麼比較多的規劃，比如說立法院大門旁邊中山南路這邊有一個很大的空間，立法院來的人也非常多，看看那個地方有沒有機會可以成為101的一個分點或分設的一個展示中心等等，你們再研究看看。"],["賈董事長永媫：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：讓中華民國的立法院，除了政治還可以多一點亮點，好不好？"],["賈董事長永媫：是，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員。","接著我們請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","接著我們請王世堅委員發言，發言時間為5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98e67cd75783bc757dc24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3dbace889a28ecb311e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:33:38 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和國家整體的利益，這些都在你思考的範圍之內。"],["阮次長清華：對，我們一向的原則就是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一向如此，也必須考量到有沒有綜效嘛！對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這非常重要，所以我也謹慎的提醒財政部，因為大家都非常關心這個案子未來走向到底怎樣。"],["阮次長清華：會，我們會謹慎來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家就拭目以待。接下來本席要請教金管會，我們現在看到詐騙一大堆，包括財政部在這邊，我們也跟它討論了很多。西班牙籍的奧納德在義大利詐騙3,000萬歐元，大概臺幣10.5億元左右，在這樣的情況下逃到臺灣，逃到臺灣之後成功的在臺灣的銀行開戶，大家質疑臺灣銀行的業者是不是真正有落實KYC，有沒有真正去落實認識你的客戶？所以在這個事件之後，我們又看到這個詐騙犯在8家銀行開設了帳戶，8家耶！我們讓全世界笑話我們，他甚至自己還擔任公司負責人，親自來開設帳戶，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，國際的詐騙犯在我們臺灣能這樣開戶，他還能在臺灣穩居住5年，我們整個銀行業在防制詐騙和洗錢方面的問題到底出在哪裡？國外的朋友都問我們，你們臺灣到底怎麼回事啊？請說明。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我分兩個部分，第一個是具體個案的部分，第二個是委員剛剛提到的後續防制的措施。第一個具體個案的部分，其實當時它是法人戶、公司戶，是用變更負責人的方式來變動它，一開始開戶並不是那個詐騙犯，而是那家公司變更負責人。所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主管機關在說明的時候已經產生這樣的現象。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個過程賊有賊理，他已經可以跑你的漏洞、可以跑你有法的漏洞去轉變成為國際的笑話，你現在要回答的是我們到底是怎麼回事、我們要怎麼圍堵，你還給我解釋這個，他已經……"],["陳副主任委員彥良：第一個，我說個案，第二個我們圍堵的方式，第二個部分我們對於KYC就像委員剛剛的指示，我們對於KYC要有強制的、更積極的來控制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教怎麼積極控制？KYC如果沒有控制好，認識你的客戶，你讓它隨意變更，這怎麼辦？已經發生了怎麼辦？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：第二個部分就是定期的審查，KYC我們不管是透過銀行公會或這些，其實它們每一個步驟都是，所以第二個部分的定期審查不能讓它隨意變更負責人，而透過這個漏洞，所以委員你講的完全對，我們在這個地方第二個步驟更會強化它定期審查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為已經被騙了，依法做，但是我們造成國際笑話，我們不希望讓人家認為臺灣是詐騙犯罪者的天堂，這是絕對不容許的，我要在這邊嚴肅的告訴你，你把你目前的樣態，我們已經被如此的糟蹋，我們要怎麼辦？我們的因應方案到底是什麼？書面資料給本席。我再次強調，臺灣是一個美麗的寶島，不能成為詐騙犯逃逸而且施詐我們臺灣、繼續騙我們臺灣，讓它成為詐騙的天堂，你認同吧！"],["陳副主任委員彥良：認同，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請把書面資料交給本席。接下來本席要請問的是11月5號，日本東京證券交易所把股票交易時間延長30分鐘，一直到下午的3點半才結束，總計5.5小時，這是他們從1954年後，時隔70年再一次延長了交易時間，這個也引起國際金融市場的矚目，本席在大概一個多月、將近兩個月前在這邊也問到到底我們臺股會不會跟進的問題，因為這個要嚴格的去討論，當時你們的主委告訴我說需用一個月的時間告訴社會大眾，現在時間已經超過了，請教你們研擬的方案是會跟進還是不跟進？請做說明。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：因為它還有系統跟所謂的股民的習慣，所以到目前為止……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們現在還沒答案嘛！是不是？現在你們評估的方向為何？因為你們答復本席要給出答案的時間已經過了。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：因為券商大部分不同意，所以我們還是要跟業者溝通，券商的部分還有股務這些他們覺得增加成本，就是除了股民這方還有券商這些，我們持續溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請行政部門回答的時候針對議題，第一個是你們主委告訴我一個月後告訴我們答案，現在已經超過一個月了。第二個是本席要請教到底跟進還是不跟進？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：目前為止，交易所給我的答案是不跟進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：交易所是不跟進，那你們還在研議當中，是吧？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我們還會再跟交易所溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個議題你們主委已經跳票了，已經失言了、失信了，他說的一個月後還是沒有答案，這是第一個。第二個是我們也希望你們謹慎討論到底要怎麼做對臺灣會更好。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：阻力還在券商公會，我們會再跟券商公會溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝副主委，趕快把研議報告給瓊瓔委員。","接著我們請羅明才委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a9870c99b91e23e6be0c24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3dba13a5c1b9de804d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:21:54 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如果有這樣講的話你要不要給他更正好不好這個我剛才已經講過了那個次長好啦 之前我做個簡單的這個結論第一個 中央財政收支發布法已經25年沒有修了這個是不分黨派的你民進黨沒有萬年執政的啦"},{"start":618.581,"end":638.832,"text":"民進黨如果變在野黨的時候你就會發現說這是這個修法讓地方可以自治中外錢下放可以照顧地方的這個所有的這個縣民縣市民眾他到時候會鼓掌的看國家要制度化要長遠啊因為民進黨現在執政你以前賴清德你自己當台南市長你當行政院長都是要修當了總統就換一個腦袋嗎特別嚴重的是這天為什麼講這麼激動不要再抹黑不要再扭曲這個才華法好不好這個是長久以來"},{"start":649.295,"end":676.064,"text":"要落實地方自治要關心地方的因為臺灣就是一個中央集錢又集錢的地方嘛全世界很少國家這樣子所以25年來多少人要求要修不是就政黨、學者專家我們辦兩次聽證會你也在多少學者專家說趕快修我跑那麼久的政治新聞寫了三本書我說這次的財政收支方法能夠修是歷史上難得的一個機會百年難遇因為三黨不過半"},{"start":677.159,"end":681.123,"text":"張啓楷委員是不是尊重其他委員的一個花園好不好?好 謝謝好 謝謝啓楷委員接著我們請楊瓊英委員花園"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1203,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時22分）請阮次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：前一陣子有公布今年的稅收到11月底超收5,100億元，現在有沒有最新的數據？今年會超收多少錢？"],["阮次長清華：實徵數超過預算數我們分兩塊，一塊是全國部分，一個是中央政府部分，剛才委員講的應該是全國那部分的預估數，到現在還不確定，因為還沒結束。"],["張委員啓楷：你們公布11月底是超收5,100億元，現在應該還在增加當中，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：這是預估數。"],["張委員啓楷：到了年底，特別是贈與稅那些全部再加進去。現在最重要是問你一個，有沒有比較明確新的數據？5,100億元還在往上走嗎？"],["阮次長清華：基本上我們預估全年全國數大概就是4,900億元到5,100億元之間；如果是中央數的話，大概是三千多億元，3,500億元到3,700億元之間。我要特別跟委員說明一點，這個只是總預算的一部分，雖然總預算可能歲收比較好，因為最近AI，我們經濟狀況不錯，所以我們稅收是增加的，但是我們財政部管財政不是只看一個總預算，我們還要看特別預算，所以我跟委員報告，總預算加特別預算目前為止還是赤字，所以我們為什麼會那麼關切這次財劃法修正。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，加了特別預算會赤字就是以前舉債舉太多，亂花錢太多了，這個要從杜絕弊案那邊做起。今天我一開始要問你最重要的，政府現在是有錢了，而且超收的金額是很多的，遠超過現在被抹黑、被扭曲的財劃法修正以後增加的3,700億元，你用你們現在最保守的5,100億元去算啊！聽我講，明年的歲入超收的錢至少多了1,400億元出來，這代表什麼？不是像卓院長講的國庫變空虛，國庫在明年可以用的錢更多啊！"],["阮次長清華：沒有！沒有！如果有的話，我們不會有什麼意見，我剛才就跟委員報告嘛！歲收只是總預算歲入的一部分，它加進去以後，我們的總預算其實還是有一個短差。"],["張委員啓楷：不要把這5,100億元又浪費掉，錢就會省下來。"],["阮次長清華：沒辦法直接這樣用。"],["張委員啓楷：更重要的，不是只有錢增加了、稅增加了，你以前浪費的、浮濫的，比如光電的弊案、超思的弊案，光是那1,000億元要拿去補臺電的拿回來，人民就有錢了，所以不要再抹黑財劃法，什麼下放錢給地方。","更重要的，這次修正的重點是什麼？今天很多資深的財政部官員在這邊，從民進黨執政、陳水扁時代當總統就有財政收支劃分法的版本啊！林全當行政院長，蔡英文剛上臺，他邀我去辦公室，我們談了很久，蔡英文本來也應該有財劃法的版本啊！你們的部長在這邊接受我質詢的時候也說問題都慢慢解決了，要有版本啊！他們拜會我們黨團，我跟她講，她說快有版本，結果到現在為止，行政院版、財政部的版本在哪裡？你們是嚴重失職，你們自己不上車、變成局外人是嚴重失職的，所以不要再抹黑財劃法。","第二個，我問你一個最簡單事情，為什麼到現在沒有提出來？最重要的人是賴清德總統，我給大家看一下，賴清德2012年在當臺南市長怎麼講？他說財劃法是一個不公不義的惡法，他說當總統的──當時他怎麼罵馬英九──當總統的如果沒有看到地方的問題，財政不足，財劃法和公債法怎麼可以不過呢？如果不處理，就是中央想集權又集錢，對它的統治比較方便。我們要相信哪一個賴清德？再來，我要相信哪一個財政部？之前跟我說要提版本的，我叫你回去趕快去看以前陳水扁提過的版本、看林全提過的版本，你們答應我要看、要提，到現在也沒有，你們是嚴重的失職，你現在還說三道四、還在抹黑財劃法。"],["阮次長清華：我們沒有抹黑，財劃法在財政部來講不是說不能修，而是說要充分討論，所以我們在過去……"],["張委員啓楷：25年來經過多少討論？我剛才已經跟你講了，次長，連陳水扁都提了版本、林全都提了版本，有沒有討論？光是新會期，立法委員上個會期討論多久、辦了公聽會，這個會期也辦了公聽會，沒討論嗎？財政部的版本在哪裡？","我接下去談一個很重要的事情，現在全民最關心的，臺灣是個寶島，可是有天災地動，我們的行政院長竟然說以後颱風地震來了，地方要自己去面對。我問你一個最重要的，你財政部到底有沒有足夠的財源給我們政府、給人民？地震來了，財政部的財源不足夠去救災嗎？我給大家看一下，請大家注意看，在921發生大地震的時候，後來政府編了1000億元的921震災災後重建基金特別預算，有錢嗎？那時候的李登輝政府為什麼有錢可以編？第二個，以今年當例子，今年我們很不幸發生了花蓮的大地震，政府機關、中央機關包括交通部、衛福部、內政部各個機關馬上找出了88.5億元。"],["阮次長清華：285億元。"],["張委員啓楷：全部加起來285億元嘛！第一項是中央機關緊急找到的88.5億元，還有中央特種基金84.65億元，前瞻和疫後的特別預算有1.01億元，包括特別的中央統籌分配稅款拿了50.1億元出來，中央的二備金、震災基金加起來就是你講的285億元，為什麼今年發生花蓮大地震有285億元在那裡？為什麼行政院長可以跟我們講以後地方要自己去面對？"],["阮次長清華：問題是現在修法以後就不一樣了，修法以後你隨時釋出3,753億元，中央對地方的支援能量不足。"],["主席：次長，你是不是把完整的資料給張啓楷委員？"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，次長講這個非常嚴重，上一張，你的意思是經過這次財政收支劃分法修正以後，中央機關的公務預算不要再編錢；第二個，特種基金不要再編錢、中央政府的第二預備金也不要編錢，不管地方的災變了嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對不起，我沒有講這樣的話。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才的意思是這些錢沒有了嗎？"],["阮次長清華：這部分是主計總處的職權，我沒辦法替他回答這個問題。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，今年有的，明年不能少，對不對？第二個，這是法定的預算。當行政院長講這個話，第一個不只是失言，變成被罵是冷血的院長，而且是違背法令的院長，所以我明確的要求、鄭重要求：行政院長卓榮泰為你的失言，人民的生命安全受到了災害，你在上面做政治操作，你把話收回去、吞回去，跟人民道歉。次長你剛也失言了，你剛剛的意思經過財劃法修正，這些預算明年不編嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我沒有這樣說。"],["主席：次長，是不是請你私下跟張委員說明？"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你看一下這些項目要不要編？"],["阮次長清華：我們財政部只負責歲入。"],["主席：我想啓楷委員已經時間上會壓縮到其他委員的時間，不好意思，是不是讓次長私下回應你？"],["張委員啓楷：馬上好，次長你明確回答我，這些錢你明年的總預算都已經送來了，都有編嘛！"],["阮次長清華：編預算不是我們財政部的權責，財政部只負責歲入，歲出那部分是主計總處要去考量的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我問你兩個問題，第一個，你有沒有足夠的稅收、財源？財政部管錢嘛！足夠給我們救災，你剛說有嘛！對不對？"],["阮次長清華：現在就沒錢了啊。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，我現在問你更嚴重的，你剛剛的講法變成說，可能因為財政收支劃分法把錢下放到地方因此沒錢，這些項目會變嗎？在今年我們立法院正在審的總預算書裡面，這些項目都在，不只今年的項目在，明年也在啊！為什麼會沒有救災的錢？怎麼會有卓榮泰講的──颱風地震來自己要面對？第一個，這是法令上，如果這樣做是違法的；第二個，這樣講把政治操作在人民的痛苦之上，這是冷血耶！這是違法。所以一方面要求他道歉，要行政院長道歉，話吞回去！次長，你回去看一下剛剛我們的對談，你是不是也認為沒有錢可以編了？你如果有這樣講的話，你要更正，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：這個我剛才講過了。"],["主席：謝謝，次長！"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我做個簡單的結論：第一個，中央財政收支劃分法已經25年沒有修了，這個是不分黨派的，你民進黨沒有萬年執政的啦，民進黨如果變在野黨的時候，你會發現這次修法讓地方可以自治，中央的錢下放可以照顧地方所有的縣市民眾，他到時候會鼓掌的，看國家制度要長遠，不要因為民進黨現在執政，以前賴清德你自己當臺南市長、你當行政院長都說要修，當了總統就換一個腦袋嗎？特別嚴重的是，這幾天為什麼講這麼激動？不要再抹黑、再扭曲這個財劃法，好不好？這是長久以來要落實地方自治、要關心地方的，臺灣就是一個中央集權又集錢的地方嘛！全世界很少國家這樣子，這25年來多少人要求要修，不是只有政黨，還有學者專家，我們辦兩次聽證會你也在，多少學者專家說趕快修，我跑了那麼久的政治新聞，寫了3本書，我說這次的財政收支劃分法能夠修是歷史上難得的一次機會，百年難遇，因為三黨不過半，修完之後才有制度法，所以修好的已經變成一個好的地方，請不要再抹黑、再扭曲財劃法，好不好？幫我們的地方多講一些聲音，幫民眾多講一些聲音。"],["主席：張啓楷委員，是不是尊重其他委員的發言，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝啓楷委員，接著請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158368","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158368","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a981c8bf019fa1f4333c24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3db6988791c7ba79bef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"11:12:47 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101的部分是不是這樣的一個情況你再多做說明是而且我不開記者會可以省了一筆錢"},{"start":52.213,"end":72.407,"text":"理解,因為我們知道說你是從那個有演藝圈明星的光環然後從企業界進到那個某個部分是廣義的公部門當中來啦那公部門當中有一個很重要的部分就是它的程序跟嚴謹度會更高程序嚴謹度會更高所以事實上說因為針對這個記者會這部分你覺得幫那個101省下一筆記者會的錢對不對"},{"start":76.59,"end":95.242,"text":"可是事實上大家就會覺得說那你私用跟公用的部分好像沒有拿捏得很好我剛剛聽到你在回答那次法委員的時候你提到說你是私企公用表示說你是把你的資源用來做在101當中的時候你覺得這好像是一個對101的一個正面的回饋"},{"start":95.922,"end":121.328,"text":"可是我們看起來的時候感覺好像不一定是這麼一回事所以說我們覺得說在整個公布門中程序的部分還是要拿捏得很好比方說你把101畢竟是一個有國際光環的一個建築物那你把它用在你的個人粉專當中去把它給弄出來的時候你覺得是你的流量帶給了101可是我們在看的時候搞不好是你占了101的便宜因為101的光環在國際上搞不好更大"},{"start":122.088,"end":140.19,"text":"可是101在網路上面真的沒有流量所以我是把我的流量導給了101所以我覺得這就是你現在要做的事情就是你要想辦法讓101的流量高起來你有你的明星關懷沒有問題我也很認同可是我覺得101畢竟是一個公單位的一個部分"},{"start":141.892,"end":161.136,"text":"如果正常在座,我就不要說你們要同時去座,或者是讓101先你再去做分享。有有有,我有同時,我有同時,應該是說因為我的流量比較大,所以大家先看到我的,但是在這個串聯的後台是已經串起來的。您懂我的意思嗎?那這個部分我理解。就是我把我的流量跟101我們是同步的。"},{"start":161.496,"end":189.63,"text":"101是串在我們的整個的協辦跟協作裡面的理解好那這個部分因為這個部分是一個點因為我有聽說有些媒體他好像從我們101的那個媒體群退群因為覺得好像說不太需要在這個101的媒體群裡面只要關注你的那個粉專就可以有這樣的狀況嗎我不清楚你後續再了解一下這個本席一個很清楚的一個說明好不好去了解一下然後另外一個部分就是說101這個部分它畢竟是一個"},{"start":192.26,"end":209.263,"text":"經營的事業單位我知道你現在很努力想要做公益我們也知道之前在疫情的時候你也做了一些公益活動我們也都看在眼裡某個部分也是肯定的我想問一下101現在在做公益的時候捐款如果超過100萬需不需要董事會通過"},{"start":209.804,"end":236.426,"text":"需要超過101萬要需要101萬就需要董事會通過對不對是你剛剛提到說那個在捐棒球這部分你找了10家廠商一家60萬再加上101的200萬是不是有董事會通過全部通過好那我要問一個狀態就是2025年的登高賽是因為登高賽也是101另外一個很吸引人的地方對目前登高賽的情況如何那他要怎麼去做公益"},{"start":236.786,"end":263.752,"text":"好,101的登高賽呢這邊我可以跟大家宣傳一下即將會辦在2025年的5月3號那在這個部分呢我們是突破以往就是可能就是一個登高的賽事我們必須結合了公益我認為呢我們在這個臺北101那我自己覺得說我在我自己是很能夠做公益嘛這是我的強項所以呢我就會帶領著101在登高賽事的部分結合慈善公益"},{"start":264.332,"end":283.207,"text":"然後一起讓國人能夠一起參與OK那這個部分我想說我最後再多一個問題給你你之後因為之前永捷同心你剛才也覺得說你有T恤這事情是點燈活動聽說這個公益的部分是他們有經過董事會同意是直接讓廠商捐款給第三方"},{"start":284.266,"end":306.221,"text":"那是不是有這樣的情況那之後是不是在101點燈的時候如果說是我要求婚我就可以在101點燈可以嗎可以啊可以嗎可以啊可以啊我們這次已經一個活動等一下等一下也算是公益的部分12月24號跟25號我們已經開放了所有的國人都可以點燈OK開始"},{"start":307.342,"end":332.407,"text":"12月25日開始開放,以後都可以嗎?兩天兩天那針對這個永樂同心這個沒有進行董事會就是請廠商捐款第三方之後你之後再給本席一個說明這個絕對有董事會同意啦不然怎麼可能捐款整個捐款的行程跟這個形式全部都是董事會同意的偏鄉的棒球的單位全部都同意的"},{"start":333.788,"end":348.003,"text":"針對媒體退群部分你之後再給本席一個具體的說明最後再給本席30秒我想問一下次長因為今天我看到本來這個專題報告是財政部部長來結果他後來請假了請假在行政院那邊開記者會"},{"start":349.505,"end":377.417,"text":"那對於就是在野黨努力推出來的一個財化法指指點點說什麼那個人口分析不夠細緻啦沒有考慮到老人年輕人的問題然後什麼對於什麼土地納入分配的時候不夠細緻沒有考慮到區劃分感覺財政部很厲害應該有一個很具體的版本你可不可以給我一個你們財政部自己要有的一個財化法本來要有財化法的版本可不可以本席一個很清楚的一個內容"},{"start":378.637,"end":393.47,"text":"對不起,我們目前是沒有這樣的一個版本所以還是沒有版本嗎?然後本來應該財政部作為不作為然後在野黨努力去推出來之後開始說三道四指指點點,你覺得這樣適合嗎?然後該進來做專報備詢的情況,不進來做專報備詢在行政院裡面開記者會對在野黨指指點點,你覺得這是應該要有的態度嗎?"},{"start":402.938,"end":417.159,"text":"我覺得是這樣,這個財化法其實是真的是我們的財政的根本大法,也就是要兼顧到中央的施政需求,也要考慮到地方的財政自主,所以我們...因為你們既然剛剛可以對於..."},{"start":419.642,"end":442.809,"text":"在野黨的推出來的已經合法修過的一個版本指指點點覺得人口分布不對不夠細緻土地的一個規劃分布不夠細緻你把你們人口細緻的版本給本席一個很清楚的書面說明可不可以我們這樣子好不好我們大概可不可以嗎如果沒有不能給本席的書面說明你們開記者會那邊指指點點那是什麼意思該進來備詢不進來備詢該進來專報不進來專報"},{"start":448.491,"end":467.179,"text":"目前以目前最後的最後的版本來看的話我們就說我們暫時不去管這個這個除了這個垂直分配之外那麼水能分配的確在分配上我是覺得可能還要更進一步來深思讓分配更加的公平"},{"start":467.839,"end":482.818,"text":"所以你覺得現在財政部如果說也不適合講這部分那財政部長在記者會當中講說人口分布這部分的分析不夠細緻土地的這相關的一塊不夠細緻這是什麼意思你如果都沒有辦法給我一個書面資料的時候那這樣的話"},{"start":485.053,"end":505.748,"text":"不是就是擺明躲避今天的專報跟備詢讓你出來代打這樣我們把我們這個在我們這個過去我們邀請地方政府這個會商的相會記錄我們會送給這個委員做參考當時我們其實是努力在希望能夠大家能夠達成共識然後在這修法要更加順利當時是這樣子"},{"start":508.15,"end":508.59,"text":"接著請張祺凱委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1149,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（11時12分）謝謝主席，我想請財政部阮政次和101董事長，謝謝。"],["主席：請阮政次、賈永媫董事長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長好。因為今天是針對101的2024年營運績效和2025年經營計畫，還有跨年煙火的部分，所以我想先問一下101董事長。"],["賈董事長永媫：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：董事長，我知道你本身的聲量是比101的官網好很多，剛也有委員特別提到，因為這次有關101的跨年煙火是在你個人粉專上面先公布這件事，我聽了你解釋，我發現你還是覺得有點委屈，因為你覺得你的流量可以去cover 101的部分，是不是這樣的情況？你再多做說明。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，而且我不開記者會可以省了一筆錢。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為我們知道你有演藝圈明星的光環，從企業界進到某個部分是廣義的公部門當中來，公部門有個很重要的部分，就是它的程序嚴謹度會更高，針對記者會這部分，你覺得幫101省下一筆記者會的錢，對不對？"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是事實上大家會覺得你私用和公用的部分好像沒有拿捏得很好，我剛聽到你在回答賴士葆委員時提到你是私器公用，表示說你是把你的資源用在101，你覺得這好像是對101正面的回饋，可是我們看起來感覺好像不一定是這麼一回事。所以我們覺得在公部門中，程序的部分還是要拿捏得很好，比方說，101畢竟是個有國際光環的建築物，你把它用在你個人的粉專的時候，你覺得你的流量帶給了101，可是我們在看的時候，搞不好是你占了101的便宜，因為101的光環在國際上搞不好更大。"],["賈董事長永媫：可是101網路上面真的沒有流量，所以我是把我的流量導給了101。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我覺得這就是你現在要做的事情，要想辦法讓101的流量高起來，你有你的明星光環沒有問題，我也很認同，可是我覺得101畢竟是公單位的部分，如果正常在做，比方你們要同時去做，或者讓101先，你再分享、再做不同的導流。"],["賈董事長永媫：有，我有同時，應該是說因為我的流量比較大，所以大家先看到我的，但是在串連的後臺是已經串起來的，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["鄭委員正鈐：我理解。"],["賈董事長永媫：我把我的流量跟101是同步的，101是串在我們整個的協辦和協作裡面。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，因為這個部分是一個點，我有聽說有些媒體好像從101的媒體群退群，因為好像覺得不需要在101的媒體群裡面，只要關注你的粉專就可以了，有這樣的狀況嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：我不清楚。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你後續再了解，給本席一個清楚的說明，去了解一下。"],["賈董事長永媫：OK。"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外一個部分，101畢竟是一個經營的事業單位，我知道你現在很努力想要做公益，我們也知道之前在疫情的時候，你也做了一些公益活動，我們也都看在眼裡，某個部分也是肯定的，我想問一下，101現在做公益的時候，捐款如果超過100萬元，需不需要董事會通過？"],["賈董事長永媫：需要，超過101萬需要。"],["鄭委員正鈐：101萬就需要董事會通過，對不對？"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你剛剛提到在捐棒球這部分，你找60家廠商，1家60萬元，再加上101的200萬元，是不是有董事會通過？"],["賈董事長永媫：全部通過。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我要問一個狀態，2025年的登高賽，因為登高賽也是101另外一個很吸引人的地方，目前登高賽的情況如何？它要怎麼做公益？"],["賈董事長永媫：101的登高賽這邊我可以跟大家宣傳一下，即將會辦在2025年的5月3日，我們突破以往就是一個登高的賽事，我們必須結合了公益，我認為我們在臺北101，我自己覺得自己是很能夠做公益，這是我的強項，所以我就會帶領著101在登高賽事的部分結合慈善公益，讓國人能夠一起參與。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我最後再丟一個問題給你，關於之前「永婕同心」事件，你剛也說有T恤這件事情，點燈活動聽說公益的部分沒有經過董事會同意，是其他廠商捐款給第三方，是不是有這樣的情況？之後是不是在101點燈的部分，如果說我要求婚，我就可以在101點燈，可以嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：可以啊！"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：可以啊！12月24日和25日我們已經開放所有的國人都可以點燈。"],["鄭委員正鈐：12月25日開始開放，是不是？"],["賈董事長永媫：24、25兩天。"],["鄭委員正鈐：以後都可以嗎？針對「永婕同心」沒有經過董事會，就是請廠商捐款給第三方，你之後再給本席一個……"],["賈董事長永媫：這絕對有董事會同意，不然我們怎麼可能捐款？整個捐款的行程和形式全部都是董事會同意的，針對偏鄉的棒球單位，全部都同意的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對媒體退群部分，你之後再給本席一個具體的說明。"],["賈董事長永媫：好的，謝謝。"],["鄭委員正鈐：最後再給本席30秒，我想問一下次長，因為今天我看到本來專題報告是財政部長來，結果她後來請假，請假在行政院那邊開記者會，對於在野黨努力推出來的財劃法指指點點，說什麼人口分析不夠細緻、沒有考慮到老人、年青人的問題、對於土地納入分配不夠細緻，沒有考慮到區域劃分，感覺財政部很厲害，應該有一個很具體的版本，你可不可以給我一個你們財政部自己本來要有的財劃法的版本，可不可以給本席一個很清楚的內容？"],["阮次長清華：對不起，我們目前沒有這樣的版本。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以還是沒有版本嘛！本來應該財政部作為而不作為，在野黨努力去推出來之後，開始說三道四、指指點點，你覺得這樣適合嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是在討論的過程……"],["鄭委員正鈐：該進來做專報備詢的情況，竟然不進來做專報備詢，在行政院裡面開記者會，對在野黨指指點點，你覺得這是應該要有的態度嗎？"],["阮次長清華：財劃法其實真的是我們財政紀律根本大法，也就是要兼顧到中央的施政需求，也要考慮到地方的財政自主，所以我們希望能夠充分討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，因為你們既然剛剛可以對於在野黨推出來的已經合法修過的版本指指點點，覺得人口分布不對、不夠細緻，土地的規劃分得不夠細緻，你把你們認為細緻的版本給本席一個很清楚的書面說明，可不可以？"],["阮次長清華：我們大概……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可不可以嘛？如果不能給本席一個書面，你們開記者會在那邊指指點點是什麼意思？該進來備詢不進來備詢，該進來專報不進來專報，讓你出來不對吧！"],["阮次長清華：以目前最後的版本來看的話，我們暫時不去管……除了垂直分配之外，水平分配的確在分配上，我覺得可能還要更進一步來深思，讓分配更加的公平。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你覺得現在財政部如果說也不適合講這個部分，那財政部長在記者會講說人口分布這部分的分析不夠細緻、土地相關的不夠細緻，這是什麼意思？你如果都沒有辦法給我一個書面資料，這樣的話不就擺明躲避今天的專報和備詢，讓你出來代打？"],["阮次長清華：我們把過去邀集地方政府會商的相關會議紀錄送給委員參考，當時我們其實是努力希望大家能夠達成共識，讓修法更加順利，當時是這樣子，現在通過的其實是人口和營業額就占了75%，的確會造成集中化。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們又沒有版本，該做不做，然後在野黨努力去推動、完成了，你們在這邊說三道四，你覺得這樣適合嗎？"],["主席：阮次長，是不是會後把資料給鄭委員？"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，接著請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98c057c594f44b79b4c24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3db1356525e4f663e885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：我想這個部分是我們可以努力的方向。"],["賈董事長永媫：我再宣傳一下，我們臺北101在12月歲末年終的時候，每個禮拜六、禮拜天我們特別在四樓打造了一個夢想舞臺，我們邀請了很多的原住民孩子一起來這個舞臺表演，其實他們都非常興奮能夠有機會來臺北101、能夠站在這個舞臺，我們也有跟民視合作、都有直播，這個活動我覺得非常有意義。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝你的思維，我們拭目以待。"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：接下來我請教一下次長，其實我非常關心這次財劃法之後原鄉所受到的衝擊，所以我有一些問題想要請教，因為我們都很清楚知道，中央的錢是用來調節地方財政不均的狀況，這幾年我在立法院也感受到了，可是我先講一件事，我一直很關心我們六都之後有一些原鄉變原區，它其實財政稅課的部分驟降為零，這個部分我提出版本，大家也都說很合理、很應該，可是我在上個禮拜五最後的時候看到，竟然用一個更三方式的最後版本寫說不予採納，我就非常的驚訝，也就是說大家願意讓這種不合理狀況繼續的放任它存在，我覺得非常的漠視我們原住民的權益。","可是我要說的是，現在更慘，因為以前它們必須要仰賴大量的中央補助，因為有時候我們市政府可能沒辦法去補足這個部分，就必須仰賴大量的中央，我們看一下原鄉的財務結構，如果是以鄉來看，百分之五、六十以上都必須仰賴中央的補助，可是為什麼我很關心六都合併之後的原區？因為它更慘，幾乎百分之九十要仰賴中央的補助，要不然它財政非常的困難，可是這下子我們中央錢也變少了，能夠挹注給它調節的部分也沒有那麼自由了，我請問一下次長，你怎麼看這個問題？"],["阮次長清華：我知道委員長期關心原住民原鄉相關的財政問題，在歷次包括公聽會或質詢，委員也多次表達這樣的意見，這些意見最後沒有被納進去，我們覺得非常遺憾。未來就像剛才委員提到的，中央因為這次的修法，在垂直這部分要多釋出3,753億元，一般補助款又不能減少，在這種情況之下，中央補助地方的能力的確會受到減弱。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，我就是關心這個問題，你講到重點，公告之後，什麼時候要施行？如果真的公告的話。"],["阮次長清華：目前的最後一條是說公布日施行。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：公布日施行，3,700億元各部會要怎麼分？怎麼抽？"],["阮次長清華：所以這部分還要再討論，因為最後沒有一個緩衝期，它就是在公布日施行，本來某一個黨，像民眾黨是有緩衝一年的時間。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我很關心的就是，我不管各縣市怎麼分配，因為我們原住民族人其實分布在全國的各縣市，我們的計畫都是跨年度、跨縣市的居多，而且非常的仰賴中央的補助，現在公告施行，我們在這邊談的預算可能是一個玩笑，3,700億元到底要怎麼重新分配、怎麼重新抽？但是以原民會來講，我們族人非常非常仰賴的，像是這些原住民族博物館會不會受到影響？"],["阮次長清華：我想那應該是計畫型補助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它是跨年度計畫型補助。"],["阮次長清華：這部分將來可能會跟主計總處這邊做一個完整的盤點。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我直接給你看一個表，我們類似這樣的跨年度、跨縣市的整體性補助，像是互助教保中心、沉浸式族語教保員、族語教學支援人員、族語老師、語推人員、本土語文指導員、族語保母、族語直播、族語學習、南島論壇，還有這些原住民文化知識體系，甚至是我們的原語會、原民臺等等很多的計畫，即將要上路社會安全網、我們的博物館、我們最需要的聚會所、特色道路、宜居計畫這些建設類等等等，還有這些文化藝術家相關計畫、產學計畫，非常的多。"],["阮次長清華：是，看得出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，我只是要跟你講，3,700億元要重新分配、重新抽，我們原鄉怎麼辦？我們已經是最弱勢、最慘的一群，我們需要仰賴中央補助怎麼辦？我就是先提出這樣的問題，我不希望給我們二度、三度、四度的傷害。"],["阮次長清華：是，謝謝委員的垂詢，我們現在中央面臨最大的問題就是多釋出的財源要從哪邊去補、要從哪邊來，這是我們現在面臨最大的問題要怎麼去處理、怎麼去補救，這是很大的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我在這邊提出這樣的提醒，因為我覺得很多人不知道正在失去的是什麼、被影響的是什麼，每個人都在看我的人均變多，每個縣市錢變多，但是他不曉得相對的他失去的是什麼。"],["阮次長清華：是，了解。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以事權的部分完全沒有談，沒有隨之調整，這是我們感到很憂心的地方，國家到底會受到什麼衝擊影響，我現在就是很關心，至少給我們一份報告，可以嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在先盤點出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：像我們的農路，我們最希望的水保署、農水署、水利署，我們很多很多原鄉仰賴的，我現在很緊張，所以我希望至少應該給我們一份報告，讓我們可以跟族人說，可以嗎？"],["阮次長清華：這部分容許我帶回去跟主總那邊來答，因為這部分涉及到它們。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是跟主總一起給，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：而且我覺得地方政府是人治，我至少安心錢在中央，公開、透明，有預算法、有財政紀律法、有受監督，我至少安心，對我來講，但是地方人治之後，地方政府、地方議會經常是我們詬病威權的遺毒、黑金盤踞的地方、財政不透明，甚至很多地方議會連轉播議事都沒有，我緊張啊！"],["阮次長清華：這也是我們關切的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你看我原區都不給我了，我仰賴中央，現在中央也沒有了，所有的原鄉未來都會跟六都的原區一樣，所有的原鄉都會如此。"],["阮次長清華：我們有聽到委員的意見，我們回去跟主總來答。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這個部分我希望給我一個報告，好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：這部分我要跟總處那邊來溝通。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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董事長好是這個101這一次今年這個要放的跨年煙火是其實我有先看到這個預告片是大概好像70幾秒不過這個預告片好像是先從你個人的這個臉書上面先放出來確實是那跟平常的做法不太一樣"},{"start":35.299,"end":36.259,"text":"不會啦,你來開記者會不用花什麼預算"},{"start":58.764,"end":83.147,"text":"還是有嘛你還是要有一些硬體的設施還是會有一些預算那反正就是同事們提報了這個預算之後我說其實我們可以用一個節省的方式然後又更有效益更好玩的方式來做宣傳所以呢我就先跟王世堅委員我不知道你有沒有看到那個影片那個先導的影片我有看過阿對對對所以我們這是有步驟的"},{"start":83.908,"end":95.157,"text":"我們先跟王世堅委員先導影片跟這個後來這個模擬的煙火影片我都有看過是所以呢王世堅委員開了這個影片之後重點在於我是說這個宣導的這個影片就是你這個跨年煙火的這個75秒的影片這個也是先在你的個人臉書上面先放出來的"},{"start":104.465,"end":104.625,"text":"董事長"},{"start":126.901,"end":148.297,"text":"委員這樣子才會有流量我用我的個人的流量share給了101的流量101的流量才能被我養起來當然你個人流量是大於101可是就是說我認為這樣做其實是本末倒置其實你應該是你身為101董事長你是這個101的代表人你不是只有你個人而已"},{"start":148.877,"end":175.055,"text":"所以其實你應該是先放在101的這一個開個記者會然後放完之後你再用個人的臉書再把它導流到你的個人臉書上面記者會花錢我這樣我才花了一萬塊錢那今天是因為你是101的董事長那你是賈永傑你是具有高知名度但是我是認為說這個你還是要考慮一下次序是先有101才有這個賈永傑董事長"},{"start":176.076,"end":194.753,"text":"不是先有佳永傑才有這個101不是先有101這個跨年煙火可是我把我的這個流量也是串回去啊我們是一個共通的平台啊那你也可以開個記者會之後然後再把這個影片再導入你個人的這個留言書上面一樣可以啊可是我就不想花這個錢嘛"},{"start":200.144,"end":220.401,"text":"因為這個預算就是審下來了之後這是給你一個建議啦以後你要先想到的是你個人你是佳穎傑但是你現在同時也是101的董事長101董事長的身份其實要大於你個人的佳穎傑可是他這樣101就沒有流量嘛"},{"start":221.428,"end":222.548,"text":"你說哪一個預算?"},{"start":249.162,"end":276.052,"text":"跨年煙火的預算其實呢是由我們的觀光署全額的這個贊助還有加上中華電信還有我們的證交所對那所以這個沒有花到沒有記者會的預算沒有花到101的預算你說在整個預算方面嗎對煙火的預算是沒有都是觀光署是觀光署是花多少錢觀光署大部分然後中華電信還有證交所各多少啊"},{"start":277.014,"end":283.785,"text":"嗯,可是他們說這個數字我不能說欸對,數字不能說對這個數字為什麼不能說嗯,我們公司這邊是說數字不能說這應該可以說吧,這數字為什麼不能說那你會後再給我資料"},{"start":291.94,"end":309.48,"text":"好喔那其實這兩千萬齁其實我看了一下這個歷屆的這個煙火這兩千萬其實不是算多啦是其實算是算是偏少的預算當然這個預算是在你來之前就已經編訂了啦是那所以也期待啦這個在有限的預算裡面齁這個創造出這一個"},{"start":310.862,"end":310.882,"text":"請次長"},{"start":342.55,"end":348.016,"text":"市長請教一下這一個禮拜五通過這個財化法你是哪時候拿到版本的?"},{"start":349.133,"end":371.923,"text":"什麼時候拿到版本啊對啊就是當天在議場的時候不斷的傳過來不斷的傳過來一休再休三休之後你才拿到這個版本因為我們在試算的時候第一個版本還沒試算完第二版本又出來第二版本還沒試算完第三版本又出來所以之前就是國民黨跟民眾黨也都沒有找你們在做溝通就對了沒有沒有就是當天晚上"},{"start":372.383,"end":372.563,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":388.295,"end":395.02,"text":"我請教一下就是說如果按照這個通過的版本這個隨時分配拿走這個3753億之後然後我們有一些這個福利政策我剛才舉的這些例子包含租0到2歲育兒津貼等等這些補助"},{"start":417.535,"end":432.195,"text":"本來的版本呢這個比如說租屋補貼的話每戶每月是2000到14400然後呢如果國民黨財務法通過之後呢會少了600到4320那大概都是少三分之一左右嗎你們按照這個比例來說來試算了嗎"},{"start":434.478,"end":449.839,"text":"我們是按照他的那個分配比例第一個是按照先算垂直的垂直看市值多少然後再按照他的那個水平分配的那一條那你看一下我這邊想的這個租屋補貼或是0到2歲育兒津貼這個都會少的部分的話"},{"start":450.919,"end":468.636,"text":"那這個0到2歲月的今天現在每個月是5000到7000然後如果財化法通過之後會少到1500到2100那這個這部分可能我們還要再跟這個總署那邊做最後的盤點因為按照比例來講的話大概會少了三分之一左右嗎"},{"start":470.157,"end":472.778,"text":"那原本我們都是中央就補助地方那如果說這個採訪通過之後勒"},{"start":500.189,"end":519.24,"text":"這些補助的經費是還要再給地方嗎?還是從他們這個統籌分配款拿到之後自己再去做處理?這一部分我們在七級跟這個主席總書在做盤點那至於說將來未來要怎麼因應那我想我們這一部分會提出一個對策出來"},{"start":520.02,"end":520.22,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":539.969,"end":558.635,"text":"你來看一下比如說像這一個我來分前瞻預算跟這一個計畫型補助的預算然後在左邊這個是前瞻預算前瞻預算本來也是到明年就結束了接下來就是要編到這一個各相關部會的預算裡面譬如說我講這一個捷運的部分"},{"start":559.395,"end":577.433,"text":"然後呢這個接下來編到這一個交通部的部分來講的話那其實也沒有這麼多錢在編進去了那所以以後中央跟地方的這個補助支線的比例的話是不是也要做調整這一部分我剛才講因為這一部分真的是涉及到主席總書的職權"},{"start":578.874,"end":598.439,"text":"所以我們會跟他做充分的溝通但是因為現在因為你們的錢少了啊一定錢少對啊而且現在就是一般的補助款他有第30條裡面有規定說不能少於前一年度的這個額度嘛所以我們現在可以動的可能就是大概就是計畫性補助那計畫性補助呢要怎麼檢法"},{"start":600.279,"end":619.485,"text":"計劃性補助我再跟你講到說右手邊那個是114年的這個計劃性補助然後像這一個我自己在新北市的部分的話你看有交通建設、治水的經費、交易的經費還有社福的經費等等那所以說過去比如說在114年的話"},{"start":621.966,"end":641.054,"text":"中央有補助新北市的話有351億計畫型的補助然後未來這些計畫型的補助的話那是不是也應該都會受到影響一定會受到影響因為我們中央的垂直的那部分就少了3700多億然後出去以後中央的財源從哪邊來"},{"start":646.246,"end":664.378,"text":"所以我的意思是說當地方政府多拿到這一些統籌分配款之後本來的這個計畫性補助是不是會受到影響然後未來的計畫性補助比如說就是本來有這個育兒津貼然後我們對於這個學校的補助或是說這個核酸整治的經費等等"},{"start":664.818,"end":688.656,"text":"那是不是未來就是要由這個地方的這個統籌分配館這邊多支出一點這個就因為這一部分就是統籌稅館因為地方已經大幅度增加了嘛對所以有關的這計畫性的補助很可能會做一個調整但是怎麼調整我們還要再跟總統在那邊討論主席我在最後一分鐘是這個我有收到這一個齁這個財政部給我的這一個"},{"start":689.817,"end":715.517,"text":"今年度一到十月非實名制網路社群平台投放廣告情況那因為之前這個包含這個兆豐銀行他們已經講了就是說他們就是不投放廣告在這一個這個非實名制的這個網路平台但是我有看到你們要做個檢討從明年度開始這個在這個財政部所屬機關呢這個今年度到十月大概有一千多萬投放到這一個非實名制的這個網路廣告"},{"start":716.758,"end":743.018,"text":"然後呢在這一個你們的所屬機構包含這個泛公股銀行有接有將近8400多億投放到這個非這個實名制的這些網友那從明年度開始那我看尤其這個臺灣煙酒公司有3700多萬從明年度開始這個財政部能不能就是約束一下包含你們自己所屬的機關還有這一些所屬的機構還有泛公股銀行"},{"start":743.998,"end":772.781,"text":"這個不要再花經費投放在這一個沒有實名制的這個網路平台上面所以我們來努力了我們來努力現在最主要就是說我們現在公股的行庫或者是我們行政機關我們這一部分可以盡量來努力但是現在問題就是民營的事業它沒有辦法跟進沒有辦法跟進所以變成就是說公股的就是一定要投在這個實名制的但是民營的它投在這個非實名制的那非實名制的這你們要來要求啊這打仗齁"},{"start":773.802,"end":800.148,"text":"這個打詐就是政府要是全體一致要來做處理的所以我們我跟委員報告就是最重要就是說因為剛才我們這些說要投放到這個實名制那邊是自發性的所以我們要的是一個強制性的所以我說未來這個新打詐釋法式的落實是很重要的一步對啊你們現在就是要落實啊就要求你們落實啊就是你們那個公股銀行就是帶頭開始要做啊你們所屬機構要帶頭開始來做啊已經"},{"start":802.708,"end":803.688,"text":"謝謝李坤城委員接著請吳立法委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1000,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時46分）謝謝主席，先請101大樓賈董事長。"],["主席：請賈董事長。"],["賈董事長永媫：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：董事長好。101今年要放的跨年煙火，本席有看到預告片了，好像有七十幾秒，不過這個預告片好像是先從你個人的臉書放出來公布，和平常的做法不太一樣。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，確實，通常都是開記者會，再讓記者朋友們拿到這個影像。但是同仁向我報告的時候，我心裡想，開記者會好像也要花一筆滿可觀的預算，但是……"],["李委員坤城：不會啦！你開記者會不用花什麼預算。"],["賈董事長永媫：但還是有嘛！還是要有一些硬體設施，所以還是需要一些預算。反正就是同事們提報這個預算之後，我說其實我們可以用比較節省的方式，然後又更有效益、更好玩的方式做宣傳，所以我就先和王世堅委員聯絡，不知道你有沒有看到那個影片？"],["李委員坤城：本席有看過那個先導影片。"],["賈董事長永媫：對，我們是有步驟的。我們先和王世堅委員……"],["李委員坤城：先導影片和後來的模擬煙火影片，本席都有看過啦！我今天的重點……"],["賈董事長永媫：是，所以王世堅委員拍了這個影片之後……"],["李委員坤城：重點在於跨年煙火這個75秒的影片，也是先在你的個人臉書放出來。"],["賈董事長永媫：是啊！一定要這樣啊！因為我們已經不花記者會的錢了，如何讓這個影片能夠快速宣傳出去？當然是從我的個人臉書串接到101的協作單位，不管是Mall的官方網站，還是公司的官方網站，還是我們OB的官方網站，全部串聯起來。委員，這樣才會有流量，我將個人臉書的流量share給101，這樣101的流量才能被我養起來。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！董事長。當然，你的個人臉書流量大於101啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：是啊！"],["李委員坤城：可是我認為這樣做其實是本末倒置啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：為什麼？"],["李委員坤城：因為你身為101的董事長，也是101的代表人，不是只代表你個人而已。所以應該是先在101開記者會，放出影片之後，再把它導流到你的個人臉書上面。"],["賈董事長永媫：可是開記者會要花錢，我們這樣做才花了1萬元耶！"],["李委員坤城：今天你是101的董事長，同時你也是具有高知名度的賈永媫，但我認為你還是要考慮一下先後次序，是先有101，才有賈永媫董事長，而不是先有賈永媫，才有101，也不是先有101跨年煙火……"],["賈董事長永媫：可是我把我的流量也是串回去，我們是一個共通的平臺。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！但你也可以開了記者會之後，再把這個影片導入你的個人臉書，一樣也可以導流啊！"],["賈董事長永媫：可是我不想花這個錢嘛！因為這個預算省下來之後……"],["李委員坤城：本席只是給你一個建議啦！以後你要先想到的是，雖然你是賈永媫，但你現在同時也是101的董事長。其實101董事長的身分大於個人的賈永媫，所以你想到的應該是……"],["賈董事長永媫：是，可是這樣101就沒有流量嘛！"],["李委員坤城：很慘。"],["賈董事長永媫：對，它本來就沒有流量啊！"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說，你要想到是先有101董事長，然後才是賈永媫個人，所以你現在要先想的是怎麼promote這個101，而不是promote賈永媫，這是我個人給你的建議啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：我把我的流量share給101耶！"],["李委員坤城：這次煙火的預算是多少？"],["賈董事長永媫：你說哪一個預算？"],["李委員坤城：跨年煙火的預算。"],["賈董事長永媫：跨年煙火的預算是由觀光署全額贊助，還有中華電信和證交所，可是沒有記者會的預算。"],["李委員坤城：所以沒有花到101的預算？"],["賈董事長永媫：你是說整個預算方面嗎？"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["賈董事長永媫：對，煙火的預算沒有。"],["李委員坤城：都是觀光署？"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["李委員坤城：觀光署是花多少錢？"],["賈董事長永媫：觀光署占大部分，還有中華電信和證交所。"],["李委員坤城：各多少？"],["賈董事長永媫：可是他們說這個數字我不能說耶！"],["李委員坤城：這個數字不能說？"],["賈董事長永媫：對。"],["李委員坤城：這個數字為什麼不能說？"],["賈董事長永媫：我們公司是說數字不能說。"],["李委員坤城：這應該可以說吧？這個數字為什麼不能說？請你會後給本席資料。"],["賈董事長永媫：好喔！"],["李委員坤城：我看了一下歷屆煙火的預算，其實2,000萬元不算多，算是偏少的預算。當然，這筆預算在你上任之前就已經編定，所以我們也期待在有限的預算裡面，能夠創造出和往年不太一樣的煙火。我看了預告片，你們以「Team Taiwan及Champion」為標題，以臺灣拿到12強世界冠軍這個主題，我覺得可以帶動滿多臺灣人來看跨年煙火，因為有共鳴感，我們也非常期待。"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：次長，請教一下，上禮拜五通過財劃法，你是什麼時候拿到版本？"],["阮次長清華：什麼時候拿到版本？"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["阮次長清華：就是當天在議場的時候不斷傳過來。"],["李委員坤城：就是一修再修，三修之後你才拿到這個版本？"],["阮次長清華：因為我們在試算的時候，第一個版本還沒試算完，第二個版本又出來；第二個版本還沒有試算完，又有第三個版本出來。"],["李委員坤城：所以之前國民黨和民眾黨也都沒有找你們再溝通就對了？"],["阮次長清華：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們是當天晚上表決的時候拿到，你們和我們差不多同時拿到版本嘛！我們是在表決的時候拿到版本，你們也是差不多那時候拿到版本，然後才開始算？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：那時候我們就問國民黨到底這個垂直分配從中央拿到多少錢，他們也算不出來，還說要去問財政部、去問主計總處。"],["阮次長清華：但問題是他們的版本一直出來，所以我們一直跟不上，最後是有把它算出來，就是最後一個版本，因為討論……"],["李委員坤城：就是三千七百多億元嘛！"],["阮次長清華：3,753億元。"],["李委員坤城：我請教一下，如果按照通過的版本，垂直分配拿走3,753億元之後，我們有一些福利政策，就是我剛才舉的例子，包含租屋補貼、零到兩歲育兒津貼等補助，本來的版本，譬如租屋補貼，每戶每月是2,000元到1萬4,400元，如果國民黨版的財劃法通過之後會少600元到4,320元，大概都是少三分之一左右，你們是按照這個比例試算嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們是按照它的分配比例。第一個是先算垂直的數字是多少，然後再按照它的水平分配的資料……"],["李委員坤城：對，你看一下我說的租屋補貼或是零到兩歲育兒津貼，這些都會減少。零到兩歲育兒津貼現在每個月是5,000元到7,000元，如果財劃法通過之後，會少1,500元到2,100元。"],["阮次長清華：這部分我們可能還要再和主計總處做最後的盤點，因為……"],["李委員坤城：按照比例來說，大概會少三分之一左右嗎？"],["阮次長清華：不一定會這樣做，因為這部分是主計總處的職權，我們會和他們密切交換意見。"],["李委員坤城：好。我再問一下，例如一些交通建設，像新北市就包含環狀線、汐止東湖線、三鶯線，包含我們三蘆區的供水管網改善工程等等，原本都是中央補助地方，財劃法通過之後，這些補助經費還要再給地方嗎？還是他們拿到統籌分配款之後，自己再去處理？"],["阮次長清華：這部分我們積極在和主計總處盤點，至於未來要怎麼因應，我們會針對這部分提出對策。"],["李委員坤城：對，因為過去中央有比較多經費可以挹注地方，現在中央被拿走三千多億元之後會受到影響，所以在交通建設的部分，我特別以新北市一些比較重要的交通建設為例好了，你來看一下，比如像這一個，我來分前瞻預算跟計畫型補助的預算，左邊這個是前瞻預算，前瞻預算本來也是到明年就結束了，接下來就是要編到各相關部會的預算裡面，譬如捷運的部分，接下來編到交通部的部分，其實也沒有這麼多錢再編進去了，所以以後中央跟地方補助的比例是不是也要做調整？"],["阮次長清華：這部分如我剛才講的，因為這部分真的是涉及到主計總處的職權，所以我們會跟它做充分的溝通，但是因為現在……"],["李委員坤城：因為你們錢少了啊！"],["阮次長清華：一定錢少。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["阮次長清華：而且現在一般的補助款在第三十條有明文規定不能少於前一年度的額度，所以我們現在可以動的可能大概就是計畫型補助，計畫型補助要怎麼減法，這一部分可能我們要再跟……"],["李委員坤城：計畫型補助部分，我再跟你講到右手邊是114年的計畫型補助，像我自己所在新北市的部分，你看有交通建設、治水經費、教育經費及社福經費等等，譬如在114年，中央有補助新北市351億的計畫型補助，未來這些計畫型補助是不是也應該都會受到影響？"],["阮次長清華：一定會受到影響，因為中央垂直的那部分就少了三千七百多億，而這個出去以後，中央的財源從哪邊來？"],["李委員坤城：就沒有那些錢了。"],["阮次長清華：所以這部分一定要調整。"],["李委員坤城：所以我的意思是，當地方政府多拿到這一些統籌分配款之後，本來的計畫型補助是不是會受到影響？然後未來的計畫型補助，比如本來有育兒津貼、對於學校的補助、或是河川整治經費等等，是不是未來就要由地方的統籌分配款這邊多支出一點？"],["阮次長清華：統籌稅款因為地方已經大幅度增加了，所以有關的計畫型補助很可能會做一個調整，但是怎麼調整，我們還要再跟總處那邊再協商。"],["李委員坤城：主席，我再最後1分鐘。我有收到財政部給我今年度1到10月非實名制網路社群平臺投放廣告的情況，因為之前包含兆豐銀行他們已經講了，他們不投放廣告在非實名制的網路平臺，但是我有看到你們從明年度開始要做個檢討。財政部及所屬機關今年度到10月大概有一千多萬投放到非實名制的網路廣告，然後你們的所屬機構包含泛公股銀行，有將近八千四百多萬投放到非實名制的網路平臺，尤其臺灣菸酒公司有三千七百多萬，從明年度開始，財政部能不能約束一下，包含你們自己所屬的機關，還有這一些所屬的機構，還有泛公股銀行，不要再花經費投放在沒有實名制的網路平臺上面？"],["阮次長清華：這個我們來努力，現在最主要就是，公股行庫或者是行政機關這部分我們可以儘量來努力，但是現在問題就是民營事業沒有辦法跟進，所以變成公股的就是一定要投在實名制的，但是民營的投在非實名制的，而非實名制的……"],["李委員坤城：這你們要來要求啦！打詐就是政府全體一致要來做處理的。"],["阮次長清華：所以我跟委員報告，最重要的就是，因為剛才說要投放到實名制那邊是自發性的，所以我們要的是一個強制性的，所以我說未來新打詐四法的落實是很重要的一環。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，你們現在就要落實啊，就是要求你落實啊！你們公股銀行要開始帶頭做，你們所屬機構要帶頭開始來做啊！"],["阮次長清華：我們公股銀行沒問題，都已經在規劃了，不再投入非實名制。"],["李委員坤城：從明年度開始，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：它有一些合約的關係，要有一個緩衝期間。"],["李委員坤城：所以我說從明年度開始，你們去檢討，帶頭開始做，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好，我們來處理。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員，接著請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158365","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98ceb3bbf79ef2f871c24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3db0bb70b5dcafacf595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:35:22 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謝謝珊珊委員 謝謝接下來請李昆城委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":900,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時35分）謝謝主席。請金管會副主委，還有兆豐金董事長。"],["主席：請金管會陳副主委和兆豐金董董事長。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：主席、委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位好。"],["董董事長瑞斌：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：最近我們最關心的，就是不肖的融資租賃公司現在已經升級到勾結詐騙集團，這件事情已經不是秘密，最近發生的事情兩位是否知道？就是有臺版的地面師。地面師用詐騙集團先騙錢，再叫被害人去向融資借貸公司貸款、設定抵押權，最高的是被騙了1,600萬元，兩年之內合作詐騙二十多個民眾，總金額高達3億元。董事長，銀行公會答應12月要出爐的專法研議案，出來了沒？"],["董董事長瑞斌：就進度來說應該還沒有，因為我們是委外，委託外界一家……"],["黃委員珊珊：11月的時候，你說12月中，現在是12月中了。"],["董董事長瑞斌：應該快要提出期中報告了。"],["黃委員珊珊：期中報告出來了？"],["董董事長瑞斌：應該快要提出了，我還要再追一下進度。"],["黃委員珊珊：我要問的是時間表，我已經等你們1年了，11月的時候說12月中，現在是12月底，請問什麼時候會出來？月底可不可以出來？1月可不可以出來？2月可不可以出來？給我一個時間表就好。"],["董董事長瑞斌：我希望他們12月底之前至少要交一個版本，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：副主委，你們一直說銀行公會在研究，等銀行公會提出以後，你們打算什麼時候針對融資公司的管理做相關處理？因為在立專法之前，我知道你們有一些做法，但是對於這個專法案，我也一樣需要它的時程表。這份報告出來之後，你們多久可以做政策性的處理？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：因為我們還沒有看到專法研究的成果，就像委員剛剛說的，我們是先用金融消費者保護法……"],["黃委員珊珊：融資公司法，立法院曾經提過版本，我們有提版本，其他委員也提了版本。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，民國85年一直到現在，將近……"],["黃委員珊珊：大家都提了版本，我相信你們有版本可以參考，不用重新來過，好嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我只需要知道你們的時間表，金管會沒有時間表嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：就是年底的時候，我們還是要先等這個委託報告提出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：我只是要你說明需要多少時間。好，他們12月底提出來，你們1月份給我一份報告，說明你們大概需要多少時間，好嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，融資租賃業務要納入金融消費者保護法是之前金管會說的，現在進度怎麼樣？還是你們又被摸頭了？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：沒有。我們不可能被摸頭，在這個地方……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼停下來？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我們沒有停下來，現在一切仍然在持續溝通、進行當中，因為還要開公聽會。"],["黃委員珊珊：溝通中？所以三大家公司給了很多壓力？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：不會，其實都在溝通中。"],["黃委員珊珊：一樣給我時間表。什麼時候至少把上市櫃的融資租賃公司納入金融消費者保護法，有這麼難回答嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我們預計是在明年中，但是還要……"],["黃委員珊珊：明年中？又要半年？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：因為我們的子法提出之後還要預告，再加上立院這邊的公聽會，其實……"],["黃委員珊珊：從520主委上任，我就告訴他了，我們已經等了半年，現在你們還要再開公聽會，所以還要再半年。本席再問一次，把資本額達到一定規模以上的上市櫃融資租賃公司納入金融消費者保護法，有這麼難嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：這是30年來的問題，我們520上任的時候，其實根本沒有解決方案，後來我們提出解決方案，預計明年中，如果一切順利的話。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們的專法可能要半年以後，是嗎？所以這半年就讓這些融資租賃公司繼續橫行，繼續讓詐騙集團和這些人攪和在一起，讓國人受更大的損害嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：現在租賃公會也有一個自律公約，其實統計數字是往下降的。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果自律公約有用，就不會有這種事了嘛！地面師跑到臺灣來，兩年內騙了二十多人3億元，而且還設定抵押權耶！這個問題更嚴重，不是把他的錢騙走而已，還讓他負債。副主委，我知道主委很想做，也知道你很想做，我希望儘快做。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：我們會盡全力。"],["黃委員珊珊：我只需要時間表。你可以不用現在回答本席，1個月內給本席時間表，3個月、5個月或1年都可以，就算是10年也可以，請你們講出來，好嗎？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來我想問一下，在此之前，現在公股銀行也有轉投資融資租賃業，對不對？時間暫停，請財政部上臺。"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["黃委員珊珊：公股銀行有沒有轉投資融資租賃業？"],["阮次長清華：沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有嗎？那我怎麼在相關的租賃公會看到臺企銀、中小企銀、一銀、華南金都有轉投資。"],["阮次長清華：他們是有授信給他們，但是不是投資啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：所以也是有的。好，那就是授信給他們，所以他們也算是融資租賃的會員之一。這些公股銀行很受政府控制，我們也希望他們成為剛剛講的前面應該納管的這些人的示範，這些示範總可以先做吧？"],["阮次長清華：好。因為金管會最近有一個函文，就是逐步納管相關的融資租賃公司，這部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政部，麻煩公股銀行要當領頭羊，公股銀行也要做示範。"],["阮次長清華：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員珊珊：剛剛金管會沒有出來的規範，如果銀行公會出來了，我們應該讓公股銀行先行，可以嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是，我們一定會照金管會的函文，轉達各公股銀行遵行，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：董事長，我想再問一下，兆豐銀行現在很不錯，我上次在3月份質詢所謂的簡訊短碼，公股銀行希望能夠納入111短碼平臺，有自己的短碼，才不會讓民眾收到假的簡訊，所以兆豐銀行……"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們已經加入了。"],["黃委員珊珊：兆豐銀行加入了？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：銀行公會有多少會員加入？"],["董董事長瑞斌：據我了解，目前大概只有兆豐加入而已。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以金管會，兆豐銀行加入了。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：對，兆豐銀行已經推出來了。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們是不是應該鼓勵所有銀行業者加入？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是，我們在公會及其他地方都有鼓勵大家加入，現在也在商量價格。"],["黃委員珊珊：反正都一樣。請問財政部，公股銀行可以先做嗎？短碼平臺的部分，兆豐銀行已經加入，所有公股銀行都要加入，可以嗎？"],["阮次長清華：已經在做了。"],["黃委員珊珊：什麼時候會做完？不知道？短碼平臺的部分。"],["阮次長清華：一直都在做。是不是請董事長說明？因為公股銀行的部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：全部的銀行只有兆豐銀行在做，財政部的公股銀行並沒有全做啦！董事長請說。"],["董董事長瑞斌：因為這牽涉到費用的問題啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，所以大家一起去談嘛！這樣很好談的。"],["董董事長瑞斌：對，所以我希望由銀行公會出面，和三大電信公司談一個更好的deal，目前是比較貴的。"],["黃委員珊珊：很好，所以董事長，我也需要你們的時間表，一個月之內給本席報告，包括你們要怎麼做、什麼時候會做到，好嗎？要有計畫、時程。"],["董董事長瑞斌：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：時間暫停，我想請101的賈董事長。"],["主席：請賈董事長。"],["黃委員珊珊：還有證交所。"],["主席：請證交所林董事長。"],["賈董事長永媫：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。董事長，剛剛都在說很多的詐騙，101是臺灣重要的金融中心，而且也是非常重要的金融指標，但是從2009年開始，曾經發生過相關的詐騙集團設址在101大樓，讓投資人覺得這個公司好大、好氣派喔！所以投資了一大堆錢，結果被騙。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，這個部分我知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想問一下，目前為止證交所和兆豐金都是投資人，是主要的董事股東，對於所謂的租客，101大樓有沒有審查機制？或者租客要具備什麼條件？"],["賈董事長永媫：關於這個部分，其實我也差點變成受害者，在2009年的時候，確實有這樣的公司approach我們。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在有什麼機制？"],["賈董事長永媫：我們現在的機制就是會很認真地審查這家公司的財務狀況。"],["黃委員珊珊：有個審查會還是什麼？有什麼機制？"],["賈董事長永媫：包含背後的法務、金融機制等等。目前進駐101大樓的單位，全部都是國際大公司。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，你們有機制。第二個，我們現在查信義路五段7號這個地址，有447筆公司登記，將近500筆，其中包括分公司。我們非常歡迎國際企業進駐，但我們還是希望有一個機制，不要再發生2009年的問題，當時富通、凱盛財務公司發生問題之後，那時候就說有機制，2018年又發生富南斯傳銷的問題，2020年發生展彤投資的詐騙案，所以雖然有機制，但問題還是不斷發生。"],["賈董事長永媫：好，謝謝委員提示。"],["黃委員珊珊：我今天要說的是，現在是2024年，董事長接任了，我們希望101以後不要再發生類似的問題。"],["賈董事長永媫：確實，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為公司設在101就會騙到人。投資人看到公司登記在101，就認為它是國際大企業，這才是問題，好嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：我了解。關於這個部分，我上任的時候已經請稽核清查所有登記在101的公司是否為確實的公司，這個我有去做。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，那就麻煩董事長提供財委會你剛才所說的查核機制和相關的查核狀況，不能再發生類似的問題。本席認為你們和其他的商辦大樓不一樣，房東不能說不知道，因為你們叫101。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，我了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：它必須承擔所謂的國家門面、還有金融重鎮的責任，尤其是我們的公股還有這麼多持股。"],["賈董事長永媫：確實。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以一樣，麻煩在1個月內，給我你們相關的查核機制和查核結果，好嗎？謝謝。"],["賈董事長永媫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝珊珊委員。","接著請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98e8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這個三個月啦因為我們會有固定一個檢討機制啦好 杜董事長我想這個穿透式的一個管理對這個主任公司的一個約束是非常重要的所以說我們也期待就是說我們也不要污名化啦那我們也希望就是說它可以就是慢慢的導入一個正軌"},{"start":210.049,"end":210.069,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":227.09,"end":229.171,"text":"主席好委員早安在這裡跟你探討臺北101還是臺灣101"},{"start":244.079,"end":257.684,"text":"臺灣101是那我們也知道就是說你從這個9月3號上任以後你也一直做了很多很多的一個努力那如果我們從臺北市的主要的一個關關的遊客人數上來調查的話"},{"start":259.766,"end":276.759,"text":"這份調查圖是從2022年到2014年11月的統計總表我們整體來看的話不管是西門町還是松山文創、陽明山還是臺北101其實臺北101是排序第四我在這裡請教賈董事長就是說"},{"start":282.823,"end":308.83,"text":"臺北101這一個國家是以哪一個國家的遊客為主目前其實國家就是國外觀光客來客數占比最多的是韓國人但是對但是呢我必須跟您報告一下就是在9月份開始就是我們陸陸續續尤其是到了11月我們夢想高飛的棒球展開始的時候呢日本遊客增加了86%在整個總體"},{"start":312.051,"end":312.071,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":341.372,"end":368.971,"text":"所以從頭到尾那你說你大量的就是那個播放臺灣的一個在地的流行音樂是那我們也當然希望就是說你可以帶到周邊的遊客這個經濟效應你有沒有去評估它它會帶動了多少的一個遊客人數跟經濟效應呢我想跟委員今天報告的就是說我們目前對我有一個部分需要更正剛才那個"},{"start":371.174,"end":398.073,"text":"剛才我們的同事趕快立刻跟我說因為光雕的贊助的部分這一次是國泰金控麻煩所有的媒體朋友們幫我稍微更正一下是國泰金控在這個部分我們在觀光署的就是近的觀光的人數上面我覺得其實是會大幅的增加因為其實CNN已經將我們的煙火跨年煙火"},{"start":399.474,"end":400.455,"text":"我從101的一個表現必須要轉向"},{"start":416.784,"end":418.005,"text":"關井台遊客人數最高240萬"},{"start":437.852,"end":456.983,"text":"這個時候有入客這個是最高的一直到2021年這個是因為疫情所以它變少了2023慢慢又爬升到了2024其實現在已經回到一個最穩定的狀況那又有其實還是有差委員你看然後我要問你2025"},{"start":462.165,"end":490.414,"text":"對,我要問你2025你預計它會怎麼樣轉強呢?你有什麼樣的一個計畫呢?我2025年呢我們在觀景台呢其實我們因為這次的展覽呢真的是非常的成功所以接下來呢我們還是會用這種主題展覽的形式那整個用主題展覽的形式呢增加我們的整個的來客數尤其是我們的國人我們的國人其實很多人沒有上去過所以在這邊希望"},{"start":491.154,"end":507.367,"text":"我們都可以來捧場就是說光景台的一個遊客的人數的一個指標我們看到了就是101的營收的一個表現是沒錯很顯然就是說這個已經跨出了一個非常重要的穩定的一步"},{"start":507.887,"end":515.172,"text":"那在2025你期待它會有多少人我期待應該可以到180萬耶180萬對好我們現在就把2025列為180萬人次好那就是一個目標那接著"},{"start":523.117,"end":547.027,"text":"接著就是說我們再來跟你探討就是說這個101公司的一個股權的結構是那這個股權的結構事實上就是說在我們再上一頁再上一頁對在這裡這個剛才講得很清楚那郭公文委員又請教你就是說伊藤忠這個投資的股份有限公司他其實佔了37.17%是我們最大股東"},{"start":550.088,"end":568.796,"text":"對,是我們最大的股東是民股會去轉關股還是關股會去轉民股這個其實它這一個就是說外商的一個投資這個是一個非常大的一個轉換的一個標的物那當然我們也很重視這個案子"},{"start":571.077,"end":571.297,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":601.698,"end":627.476,"text":"是宏國嗎?對,是宏國,2024它是全世界最高的一個立建築我想這個整體就是說,其實基本上啦2004年蓋的吧對,2004,2004開始建構那事實上就是說,其實在早期那個伊藤忠的前手你也知道是鼎興,是鼎興嘛"},{"start":629.317,"end":644.626,"text":"頂星接手頂星所以我們事實上我們大家都非常非常的擔心就是說這個也是一個我們臺灣的一個本土的一個投資的一個指標的一個標的物"},{"start":645.566,"end":647.867,"text":"您的營收期待能轉強,如果從2013年的108億到2023年的22億,其實成長了兩倍。"},{"start":664.173,"end":679.683,"text":"其實如果10年前成長2倍可是那時候臺灣的總體的GDP才15兆那現在是23.5兆其實這個中間有一個1.6倍所以我們期待就是說你的"},{"start":680.323,"end":700.482,"text":"銀收轉強的底氣是非常強的那再回到大家關心的就是說你先生的這個德傑集團那其實在這個2022年這個是陽明海運他投下了就是說他租了一個業他的費用好像是500萬"},{"start":703.505,"end":717.976,"text":"我跟您報告一下因為它是整棟樓然後跟您報告一下在那個今年的那個國泰金控的光雕呢我們的金額高於這個超多的所以每一個廣告呢它有不一樣的case"},{"start":718.717,"end":718.957,"text":"主席主席是一樣的"},{"start":746.744,"end":760.508,"text":"每一家我們總共有10家企業所有的條件都一樣等一下等一下我們每一個企業我們每一個企業可以有8個字所有的問題怎麼會是我們等一下呢你應該讓我把問題問完啊對不起"},{"start":762.589,"end":762.609,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":793.68,"end":794.021,"text":"謝謝賴兆偉、謝謝賈董"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請兆豐金控董董事長，還有賈永媫董事長。"],["主席：有請兆豐金控董董事長，還有賈永媫董事長。"],["董董事長瑞斌：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：兩位董事長早安。首先，我先請教一下兆豐董董事長，要跟你請教的就是，在兩週前中租迪和發布了一個重大的訊息，他們表示董事會已經通過跟兆豐銀行簽訂了一個65億的聯貸案、聯貸的合約，這是事實嘛，對不對？"],["董董事長瑞斌：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，我當然最關心的就是中租迪和把這個錢……他們從兆豐借到了65億，簽了聯貸案的授信合約，這些錢會不會流向汽車貸款，還是先買後付跟不動產融資呢？董事長，你怎麼看這個問題？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，我們通常在授信時的授信合約裡面都有提到它的資金用途是受到限制的，所以如果它的資金用途已經違背原本我們所訂的合約，那我們當然會有一些措施，譬如說加碼或是減額度，還是要求他們部分或全部提前還款，因為我們是有控管的。"],["賴委員惠員：董事長，如果像你這樣講的話，你會是一個穿透式的管理，也就是你們聯貸借給它的65億，它不能去做汽車的貸款，也不能去做先買後付，也不會流到房地產去嗎？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，如果它是屬於企業所租用的汽車，而不是個人，因為我們規範他們不能做個人的租賃，譬如說我是一家公司，我的公司需要租車，那我就跟租賃公司租，這樣是可以的。"],["賴委員惠員：所以董事長你講得非常清楚，它可以把錢借給法人，可是不能借給個人，如果要借給個人的話，它的徵信必須要是周全的。"],["董董事長瑞斌：是。"],["賴委員惠員：所以這些你們都會監督它？"],["董董事長瑞斌：而且我們也會看它的單據的。"],["賴委員惠員：這些你們都會監督它？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對，我們要看單據的。"],["賴委員惠員：要看單據的？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對。"],["賴委員惠員：除了看單據以外，你們還會注重什麼？"],["董董事長瑞斌：當然我們每一個案件都會有所謂的AO，AO就會去看公司的營運狀況跟他們所有的資金流向，其實這些我們都會控管的。"],["賴委員惠員：都會控管的？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那是每個月控管的？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對，應該……"],["賴委員惠員：還是每季？"],["董董事長瑞斌：定期，一般我們都是定期控管，如果有一些特殊狀況，我們會再進一步、詳細地去了解。"],["賴委員惠員：這個定期會不會是一年一次？還是每一季一次？"],["董董事長瑞斌：應該不會，我們一般檢討都是定期，大概3個月左右。"],["賴委員惠員：好，這個3個月……"],["董董事長瑞斌：因為我們會有一個固定的檢討機制。"],["賴委員惠員：董事長，我想這個穿透式的管理對租賃公司的約束是非常重要的，所以我們也期待……我們也不要污名化，也希望他們可以慢慢地導入正軌，試著跟兆豐金控合作，我們希望把這些非常閒雜的事情導向正軌，讓它可以真的落實在金融服務社會、普惠金融，謝謝董董事長。","接著我們請賈永媫董事長，董事長早安。"],["賈董事長永媫：主席好，委員早安。"],["賴委員惠員：在這裡跟你探討台北101還是臺灣101，就像郭國文委員講的，我們期待臺灣101，我們也知道你從9月3號上任以後也一直做了很多很多的努力，如果我們從臺北市主要的觀光遊客人數來調查，這一份調查圖是從2022年到2014年11月的統計總表，整體來看，不管是西門町、松山文創、陽明山還是台北101，其實台北101是排序第四。我在這裡請教賈董事長，台北101是以哪一個國家的遊客為主？"],["賈董事長永媫：其實目前國外觀光客來客數占比最多的是韓國人。"],["賴委員惠員：是韓國人。"],["賈董事長永媫：對，但是我必須跟您報告一下，在9月份開始，我們陸陸續續，尤其是11月我們夢想高飛的棒球展開始的時候，日本遊客增加了86%，總體遊客數包含國外還有我們國內總人流是增加了30%，所以其實在這個展覽開始辦下去之後……"],["賴委員惠員：我們知道近期韓國、日本人變多了……"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["賴委員惠員：我們都知道101的跨年煙火是最重要的一個活動，今年也非常有創意，你也跟上了我們世界的職棒……"],["賈董事長永媫：對，棒球。"],["賴委員惠員：所以從頭到尾你說你大量地播放臺灣的在地流行音樂……"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["賴委員惠員：我們也當然希望你可以帶動周邊的遊客，這個經濟效益，你有沒有去評估它？它會帶動多少的遊客人數跟經濟效益？"],["賈董事長永媫：跟委員報告，我有一個部分需要更正，剛才我們的同事立刻跟我說，這次光雕贊助的部分是國泰金控，麻煩所有的媒體朋友們幫我稍微更正一下，是國泰金控。另外，在這個部分，在觀光署統計進來觀光的人數上面，我覺得會大幅增加，因為其實CNN已經將我們的跨年煙火……"],["賴委員惠員：賈董事長，我們需要一個比較具體的，雖然也可以用願景、美好的臺灣、美好的未來，但在財政委員會裡頭，我們希望講一些比較具體的。","就101的表現必須轉強上，我要跟你做一個探討，就是所謂觀景臺的遊客人數，整體而言，2019年的240萬是最高的。"],["賈董事長永媫：因為那個時候有陸客。"],["賴委員惠員：對，這個時候有陸客，這個是最高的。一直到2021年，因為疫情所以變少了；2023年慢慢又爬升；到了2024年，其實現在已經回到一個最穩定的狀況，又有突破……"],["賈董事長永媫：委員，其實還是有差，160萬到2019年是240萬……"],["賴委員惠員：對，我要問你，你預計2025年會轉強嗎？你有什麼樣的計畫呢？"],["賈董事長永媫：在2025年，我們在觀景台的部分，因為這次的展覽真的是非常成功，所以接下來我們還是會用這種主題展覽的形式，用主題展覽的形式增加我們整個的來客數，尤其是我們的國人，其實有很多的國人是沒有上去過的，所以在這邊，也希望國人們都可以來捧場。"],["賴委員惠員：賈董事長，我現在講的觀景台遊客人數的指標，就是101營收的表現。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，沒錯。"],["賴委員惠員：顯然這已經跨出一個非常重要、穩定的一步。在2025年你期待會有多少人？"],["賈董事長永媫：我期待應該可以到180萬。"],["賴委員惠員：好，我們現在就把2025年定為180萬人次，那就是一個目標。"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["賴委員惠員：接著我們再來跟你探討101公司股權的結構，事實上剛才就講得很清楚，郭國文委員有請教你，就是伊藤忠投資股份有限公司的股權其實占了37.17%。"],["賈董事長永媫：是我們最大的股東。"],["賴委員惠員：對，是你們最大的股東，這是民股去轉官股還是官股去轉民股，其實就外商的投資來說，這是一個非常大的轉換的標的物……"],["賈董事長永媫：是，我們也很重視這個案子。"],["賴委員惠員：基本上，現在已經讓出了5%，確定是讓出了5%。"],["賈董事長永媫：我可以跟委員報告一下，它讓出了5%，但是實際上也是它的子公司。"],["賴委員惠員：顯然這還是在伊藤忠投資公司裡頭，還是在你們的掌控裡頭，我要特別請教你一點，當初101是哪一個建設公司蓋的，你知道嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：是宏國嗎？"],["賴委員惠員：對，是宏國，2024年它是全世界最高的一個綠建築，其實基本上……"],["賈董事長永媫：2004年蓋的吧？"],["賴委員惠員：對，2004年開始建構，其實在早期，伊藤忠的前手，你也知道是頂新，它來接手頂新。事實上，我們大家都非常非常地擔心，這是我們臺灣本土一個投資指標的標的物，所以還是要請你特別費心。倒是有一點，我們希望、期待你的營收能夠轉強，101的淨利從2013年的10.8億，到2023年的22億，其實成長了兩倍，跟10年前相較，成長了兩倍，可是那時候臺灣總體GDP才15兆，現在是23.5兆，這中間成長了1.6倍，所以我們期待你的營收轉強，底氣是非常強的。","再回到大家關心的，就是你先生的德杰集團，其實在2022年，跟陽明海運，就是他租了一個月，費用好像是500萬……"],["賈董事長永媫：我跟您報告一下，因為那是整棟樓，然後在今年國泰金控的光雕，我們的金額高於這個超多的，所以每一個廣告它有不一樣的case。"],["賴委員惠員：賈董事長，光雕跟公益的點燈，還有商業的廣告，這就是我們要跟你探討的。我們當然知道，以你個人來講，你的形象非常正面，在時尚、在行銷、在經營方式上也都表現得很好，可是你毫不避諱把德杰集團捐款800萬點燈……"],["賈董事長永媫：可是……"],["賴委員惠員：它放多久呢？"],["賈董事長永媫：主席、主席、主席……"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["賈董事長永媫：是一樣的，我們總共有10家企業，所有的條件都一樣……"],["賴委員惠員：不是……"],["賈董事長永媫：等一下，等一下，我們每一個企業可以有8個字……"],["賴委員惠員：是我們問你所有的問題，怎麼會是要我們等一下呢？你應該讓我把問題問完啊！"],["賈董事長永媫：好，對不起！"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！"],["賈董事長永媫：Sorry！"],["賴委員惠員：很少看到來這裡的董事長像你這麼強勢的，你不得不讓人家佩服啊！"],["賈董事長永媫：Sorry！Sorry！So sorry！"],["賴委員惠員：再提醒你一次，公益的點燈還是商業的廣告，這個部分請你三思，目前為止你都表現得非常好，不要落入被大家說你是公器私用啊！"],["賈董事長永媫：好啦！謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：這是我們大家對你的期待。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委，謝謝賈董。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：謝謝顏寬恒委員。","接著請顏寬恒委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a9880ea7f93910ab462c24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3db8ee3f4945d85144e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:58:04 - 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董事長好 董事長您稍微休息一下我先問賈董一下賈董主持人好 委員好你知道你現在的這個股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫他的持股嗎我知道那你知道未來的動向是如何嗎"},{"start":41.472,"end":57.586,"text":"目前不太確切知道這個東西一直傳聞要撤資因為伊藤忠來所佔的這個股份高達32%他影響到的是未來到底是101呢是屬於關股主導還是屬於這個民股主導那過民轉工"},{"start":63.23,"end":79.082,"text":"總是有一個過程我這裡應該知道這件事情如果今天是民股主導的話或許你將來就不用跑立法院了不是嗎?今天如果假設是關股主導的話您就要常常在這邊出現不是嗎?我沒關係欸不管我要不要跑立法院都可以大空大浪就見慣了"},{"start":80.003,"end":94.015,"text":"但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是我們臺灣是要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟我們是可以一個自由交易的國家一個健康的金融環境我覺得這個會非常的重要"},{"start":97.237,"end":116.071,"text":"有關於資本市場的事情你不用太過擔心就我知道伊藤忠已經有讓5%給稀鬆臺灣了然後現階段來說的話范工股的話大概掌握大概有幾%你知道嗎51%52%然後另外一部分有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢"},{"start":116.371,"end":136.038,"text":"是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託的部分是對中央存保貸款中央存保貸款就看他的股份有沒有持續的出脫他如果一樣持續的出脫來處分他以前的不良資產的一個負擔的話那可能關股的變化就有所影響"},{"start":136.578,"end":137.999,"text":"其實我了解得非常的深入"},{"start":154.554,"end":172.678,"text":"不然我不會在上個禮拜的時候呢我就快閃日本兩天一夜十四個小時快閃所以在整個的細節的掌控上面呢我是為董事長其實快閃日本是去找一團周嗎當然是啊那狀況怎麼樣呢你要說你剛剛都不知道你也跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢"},{"start":173.458,"end":173.899,"text":"兆豐金服務委員"},{"start":189.552,"end":191.393,"text":"我希望在你任內不是做到臺北101而應該做到臺灣101為什麼"},{"start":206.263,"end":226.299,"text":"因為剛剛來說的話你所對口的對象是在停留在蔣萬安市長的情況你根本忘記的是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請所以說我為什麼一開始跟你講說那關股的比例是什麼這代表它是屬於國家層級不是一個市府層級也就是說它不是一個臺北101它應該是臺灣1101你有沒有認同"},{"start":228.28,"end":245.094,"text":"我認同,我非常認同啊。好,如果說你都認同的話,就符合你在網頁上的slogan,要把整個臺灣帶向全世界,對不對?所以說這種情況底下,如何把臺北101證明變臺灣101,或定位成臺灣101,我認為是賈董你的任務吧?"},{"start":249.858,"end":269.819,"text":"我的任務真的是這樣子,所以我們的跨年煙火呢,我們就是Team Taiwan Champion,我們就是要把台灣是世界冠軍的這件事情呢,昭告全天下,昭告全世界,是的,謝謝。所以以後呢,就不是台北101,以後就是台灣101,有沒有認同?要改名嗎?不是改名啊,這是通稱啊!"},{"start":271.02,"end":271.86,"text":"兆豐金控及臺北金融大樓股"},{"start":292.099,"end":316.108,"text":"不管是臺北或臺灣當然能夠臺灣是更好不過101是最重要的101當然是最重要沒有101前面都沒有但是臺灣跟臺北定位不一樣 董董如果是臺灣的話會更好所以我是最後是說那個董董你就上來了因為你是公股的部分到底接下來101是董事長制跟這個總經理制就你的理解是怎麼樣以你最大的股東來說"},{"start":317.369,"end":340.885,"text":"我覺得我們都是官派的董事長所以基本上就是說我們不是真正掌握股權的董事長所以其實應該還是一個董事長制還是以董事長制為主我自己的定位是說我們是財政部所派過來專業經理人所以至少他是一個執行長所以說1011應該是董事長制對不對你的認知上我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子"},{"start":342.166,"end":342.326,"text":"佳董責任"},{"start":357.319,"end":357.72,"text":"我瞭解啊"},{"start":378.8,"end":407.658,"text":"謝謝我們一定會朝這個目標前進那賈董請回我接下來問一下那個請那個阮次跟那個上台一下那請董董留下來一下董董我看這個題目改天再問你我時間才有限你請回好了董董好那個阮次剛剛我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣6612版本我們或許知道可是3753的版本你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":407.938,"end":408.138,"text":"不是嗎?是。"},{"start":435.831,"end":453.545,"text":"再加上說所謂的中央啊你的寫法中央會變錢不夠地方錢太多那我就問你啊中央錢不夠的話地方錢太多那他說中央每一年都很有錢我問你我看一個圖表這幾年包括證交稅、中小稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財吧"},{"start":457.677,"end":477.583,"text":"是這幾年景氣比較好對不對對那如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候你還有所謂距離剩餘三千億、四千億、五千億嗎還有可能嗎所以這個它是有很大的變動性所以它很大的變動性你也要講嘛我外面就要誤導說每年我們有稅基益率多少我再請一下陳副主委上來一下"},{"start":478.584,"end":503.305,"text":"我外面看到的所謂的景氣的循環從2000年以來陳副主任你知道整個景氣的循環平均大概多少個月大概11...13個月大概41.2個月41.2個月就超過3年你覺得我們股市已經那個多頭已經幾年了3年多了啦"},{"start":504.457,"end":529.522,"text":"所以說依照這個緊述循環齁老實講一定百阿百阿你知道嗎已經北風尾了捏所以我要讓財政部知道在整個政策辯護的過程當中聯同金管會的整個緊述循環你清楚接下來你的預測如果說接下來如果還不是多頭市場的話我們證交稅不能扣到那麼多錢的話還有這麼多稅金因為我請阮次昌來回答一下"},{"start":532.372,"end":542.935,"text":"跟委員報告的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯那國內外的景氣也算是平穩那沒有的時候怎麼辦所以這幾年的確證交稅舉債嗎但是我是覺得經濟總是會有循環就像剛才委員提的將來就很難保證說會不會繼續再有這麼好的成績"},{"start":556.398,"end":576.439,"text":"對,所以我是覺得我剛才講的是說稅收只是我們總預算的一部分但是我們在看整個稅收、整個裁員的時候是看總預算跟證明總的問題是說你中央不夠你要不要舉債我問你第一個問題第一個是這個而且另外他還有一個一般補助款他還把你框在那邊對不對又不能動嘛"},{"start":579.042,"end":582.125,"text":"據我了解現在有一些就是單純就是我們中央給他的錢給地方的錢就有一些超過他的稅出對嘛"},{"start":601.36,"end":619.287,"text":"所以我是說我們很擔心說這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題法律上是說不能變動但是執行成效不佳的時候你也不能讓它浪費不是嗎是所以說也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少你預算可以編但是執行不一定要執行到嘛"},{"start":620.768,"end":643.23,"text":"這也是我們現在在調度的產生很大的問題你要面對這個問題不能從一般的補助款統籌分配款已經變弄成這樣子了剩下就是計畫型補助所以說還有計畫型補助跟一般補助款的彈性的運用空間有這個可能性那面對這個可能性的話國家財政才有救你剛剛講很好"},{"start":644.191,"end":657.627,"text":"財政收支方法是國家的根本大法不是哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊你搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊你知道嗎而且一修了以後就很難再動它"},{"start":658.848,"end":678.968,"text":"一修很難帶動他那我就問你嘛如果說他的修法之後至愛難情的時候那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性這一部分我跟委員報告我們現在是會同這個主席總書在盤點他的影響跟他未來可能的因應措施那這一部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考做決策所以說不排除再修法是吧"},{"start":679.989,"end":680.029,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時57分）主席，有請賈永媫董事長和兆豐金的董董。"],["主席：請賈永媫董事長和董董事長。"],["董董事長瑞斌：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：董事長好。董事長，您稍作休息一下，我先問賈董。"],["賈董事長永媫：主席好、委員好。"],["郭委員國文：賈董，你知道你們現在的股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫它的持股嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：我知道。"],["郭委員國文：你知道未來的動向是如何嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：目前不太確切知道這個動向。"],["郭委員國文：不太確切知道？"],["賈董事長永媫：對。"],["郭委員國文：一直傳聞要撤資，因為伊藤忠所占的股分高達32%，影響到的是未來101到底是屬於官股主導，還是屬於民股主導。民轉公總是有一個過程，我覺得你應該知道這件事情，如果今天是民股主導的話，或許你將來就不用跑立法院了，不是嗎？假設是官股主導的話，你就要常常在這邊出現，不是嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：我沒關係耶，不管我要不要跑立法院都可以。"],["郭委員國文：大風大浪都見慣了。"],["賈董事長永媫：但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是臺灣要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟，我們是一個可以自由交易的國家，一個健康的金融環境，我覺得這個非常重要。"],["郭委員國文：這個金管會會去關心，你不用關心這個事情。關於資本市場的事情，你不用太過擔心，就我知道，伊藤忠已經有讓5%給西松台灣了。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，那也是它的子公司。"],["郭委員國文：以現階段來說的話，泛公股大概掌握有幾percent，你知道嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：51%。"],["郭委員國文：52%。另外，有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢？是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託，是屬於貸款的狀況。"],["賈董事長永媫：對，中央存保代管。"],["郭委員國文：中央存保代管就看它的股分有沒有持續出脫，它如果一樣持續出脫處分以前不良資產負擔的話，那可能官股的變化就會有所影響，對不對？所以我覺得作為一個董事長，對於整個股權結構你要有一定程度的把握跟瞭解，目前官股跟民股的占比是7比6，這個其實影響到未來的變動。"],["賈董事長永媫：我可以跟委員報告一下，其實我瞭解得非常深入，不然我不會在上個禮拜就快閃日本兩天一夜、14個小時，所以在整個細節的掌控上面，我身為董事長……"],["郭委員國文：快閃日本是去找伊藤忠嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：當然是啊！"],["郭委員國文：狀況怎麼樣呢？你剛剛說你都不知道，你跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢？"],["賈董事長永媫：我知道啊！我剛才一上臺就說我知道這個釋股的訊息，而且所有的細節我都知道。"],["郭委員國文：狀況是怎麼樣？"],["賈董事長永媫：但是這個是不能夠現在講的，我不能夠在……"],["郭委員國文：所以已經有在洽定特定對象的買家就是了，你可以透露到這個程度，對不對？"],["賈董事長永媫：我不能透露到這個程度，是真的啊！"],["郭委員國文：就我知道，那我透露給你聽，它已經有洽定特定的買家，哪一家我都知道。"],["賈董事長永媫：好。"],["郭委員國文：我會關心這個問題，其實是因為這牽扯到整個台北101的定位，但是我希望在你任內不是做到台北101，而應該做到臺灣101。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：為什麼？因為就剛剛來說，你所對口的對象還停留在蔣萬安市長的情況，你根本忘記是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請，所以我為什麼一開始就跟你講官股的比例是什麼，這代表它是屬於國家層級，不是一個市府層級，也就是它不是台北101，應該是臺灣101，你有沒有認同？"],["賈董事長永媫：我認同，我非常認同啊！"],["郭委員國文：非常好！如果你都認同的話，就有符合你在網頁上的slogan，要把整個臺灣帶向全世界，對不對？所以這種情況底下如何把台北101正名變臺灣101或定位成臺灣101，我認為是賈董的任務。"],["賈董事長永媫：我的任務真的是這樣子，所以我們的跨年煙火主題就是「Team Taiwan及Champion」，我們就是要把臺灣是世界冠軍這件事情昭告全天下、昭告全世界。"],["郭委員國文：很好！所以以後就不是台北101，以後就是臺灣101，你認不認同？"],["賈董事長永媫：要改名嗎？"],["郭委員國文：不是改名，這是通稱啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：好喔！"],["郭委員國文：過往都是講台北101，它是代表臺灣。"],["賈董事長永媫：可以啊，我們可以看看要不要把Taipei 101改成Taiwan 101，也很棒啊！"],["郭委員國文：這也是為什麼它的股權就代表官股，我問一下董董，我的主張你有沒有認同？你是最大的官股。"],["董董事長瑞斌：不管是台北或臺灣，當然能夠臺灣是更好，不過101是最重要的，就是它的整個營運和形象。"],["郭委員國文：101當然是最重要，沒有101，前面都沒有，但是臺灣和台北的定位不一樣，董董，對不對？"],["董董事長瑞斌：如果是臺灣的話會更好。"],["郭委員國文：最後，董董，你都上來了，因為你是公股的部分，到底接下來101是董事長制或總經理制，就你的理解是怎麼樣，以你最大的股東來說？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我覺得我們都是官派的董事長，所以基本上我們不是真正掌有股權的董事長，其實應該還是董事長制。"],["郭委員國文：還是以董事長制為主？"],["董董事長瑞斌：基本上，我自己的定位是我們是財政部所派過來的專業經理人，所以至少他是一個執行長的概念。"],["郭委員國文：所以在你的認知上101應該是董事長制，對不對？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子。"],["郭委員國文：都是應該董事長制，所以賈董的責任就很大，賈董，這是董事長制，不是總經理制，你要定位清楚，所以你的位階其實不是一個單純對外行銷的角色而已。"],["賈董事長永媫：我知道，我其實……"],["郭委員國文：你要扛起很大的責任喔！"],["賈董事長永媫：我瞭解啊！"],["郭委員國文：不然我們一直在爭論到底是總經理制，還是董事長制……"],["賈董事長永媫：不然我怎麼會飛到日本去談股權啦！"],["郭委員國文：總經理也在這邊，所以我要讓你知道一下，你的定位是董事長制，而且你是以公益的形象來參與101的董事長，所以你如何讓整個101朝向一個更公益的角度，我對你的期待很高。"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝，我們一定會朝這個目標前進。"],["郭委員國文：賈董請回。"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：接下來請阮次上臺，請董董留下來。董董，我看這個題目改天再問你好了，我時間有限，你請回好了。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：阮次，我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題，必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣，6612的版本我們或許知道，可是3753的版本，你知道嗎？"],["阮次長清華：不知道。"],["郭委員國文：不知道就無從討論，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是啊！"],["郭委員國文：你的意思是這樣子嘛？"],["阮次長清華：對，我的意思是最後階段，我們在試算第一個版本的時候，第二個版本又出來了。"],["郭委員國文：毫無所悉，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，我相信……"],["郭委員國文：秘密版本，對不對？傳聞中說有，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我相信很多委員大概也不知道。"],["郭委員國文：突然突襲的，對不對？這就是現在國民黨很不負責任的地方，完全沒有讓財政單位有心理準備，要做一個整個財政的宏觀調控，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：再加上所謂的中央，你的寫法會變成中央錢不夠、地方錢太多，我就要問你，中央錢不夠、地方錢太多，它說中央每一年都很有錢，我問你，我給你看一個圖表，這幾年包括證交稅、綜所稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財，是這幾年景氣比較好，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候，還有歲計賸餘3,000億、4,000億、5,000億嗎？還有可能嗎？"],["阮次長清華：所以這個有很大的變動性。"],["郭委員國文：它有很大的變動性，你也要講嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：外面就在那邊誤導說每年我們有歲計盈餘多少……","我再請陳副主委上來一下，外面看到所謂的景氣循環，從2000年以來，陳副主委，你知道整個景氣循環平均大概多少個月？"],["陳副主任委員彥良：大概13個月……"],["郭委員國文：大概41.2個月。"],["陳副主任委員彥良：是。"],["郭委員國文：41.2個月就超過3年啊，你覺得我們股市多頭已經幾年了？也三年多了啦！所以依照景氣循環，老實講已經北風尾了，你知道嗎？已經北風尾了耶，所以我要讓財政部知道，在整個政策辯護的過程當中，連同金管會的整個景氣循環你清楚，如果你預測接下來不是多頭市場，我們證交稅不能課到那麼多錢的話，還有這麼多歲計盈餘……我請阮次上來回答一下。"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯，國內外的景氣也算是平穩……"],["郭委員國文：那沒有的時候怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：所以這幾年的確證交稅……"],["郭委員國文：要舉債嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是我覺得經濟總是會有循環，就像剛才委員提的，將來就很難保證會繼續再有這麼好的成績。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！"],["阮次長清華：所以我覺得就像我剛才講的，稅收只是我們總預算的一部分，我們在看整個稅收財源時是看總預算跟特別預算。"],["郭委員國文：對嘛，我的問題是：中央不夠的話，你要不要舉債？我問你的第一個問題是這個；另外，它還有一個一般補助款，它還把你匡列在那邊……"],["阮次長清華：它匡起來……"],["郭委員國文：對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：又不能動嘛，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：那你現在只剩下什麼？剩下計畫補助款可以做彈性處理而已嘛，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：依照財政部的評估，一般補助款一定要給它不可嘛，如果它執行不佳呢？它錢太多呢？如果執行不佳，你一定非要給它不可嗎？"],["阮次長清華：據我了解，現在有一些單純是我們中央給地方的錢就超過他們的歲出……"],["郭委員國文：對嘛。"],["阮次長清華：所以我們很擔心這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題。"],["郭委員國文：法律上是說不能變動，但是執行成效不佳的時候，你也不能讓它浪費，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少，預算可以編，但是執行不一定要執行到，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，這也是我們現在在調度時產生蠻大的問題。"],["郭委員國文：你要去面對這個問題。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：不論是從一般補助款也好，統籌分配款已經被弄成這樣子了，就剩下計畫型補助，所以還有計畫型補助跟一般補助款的彈性運用空間嘛，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：有這個可能性嘛，面對這個可能性的話，國家的財政才有救。你剛剛講得很好，財政收支劃分法是國家的根本大法，哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，那個目前的……"],["郭委員國文：搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊，你知道嗎？"],["阮次長清華：而且一修了以後就很難再動它。"],["郭委員國文：好，一修之後就很難再動它，那我就問你，如果說修法之後窒礙難行，那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們現在會同主計總處在盤點它的影響跟未來可能的因應措施，這部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考。"],["郭委員國文：所以不排除再修法，是吧？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：你要趕快有一個因應的方式。"],["阮次長清華：對，已經在積極處理。"],["郭委員國文：否則一般民間非常地焦慮，做一個財主部門，一定要面對這個問題。次長，請回，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["主席（顏委員寬恒代）：請賴惠員召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98fc34572d3f2e2eccc24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3db2eceb36a5f366b8d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:43:28 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啦加總市長不宜啦"},{"start":397.29,"end":421.651,"text":"這個不宜啦因為你們怎麼秀恩愛在旁邊的地方這是一個公共的平台你用那個的話人家就會講公器私用啦雖然你不認為這樣子可是你說你捐錢就可以不錯啦話不是這樣講董事長你現在等於是某種程度你是官員你的作風舉止要跟你過去的身份是不一樣的要比較嚴謹OK"},{"start":422.972,"end":428.338,"text":"好,了解了解了解好了,你們兩位請回吧請來財政部的市長來好,謝謝"},{"start":434.381,"end":448.856,"text":"賈董事長 要正向的回答委員對你的一個提問來 委員好來 次長你這個人剛才回答的時候就青菜公布了完全政治語言啊什麼就沒有討論財劃法從今年的5月20號第一次審查審查會議6次"},{"start":454.682,"end":479.211,"text":"崩堤位兩次、茶會卸商一次、委員發言168次還有巡打總共經歷了38小時48分鐘什麼為什麼沒有討論呢你不能這個變成通靈政治化啊這個卵池長你講這個話我鄙視你啊我瞧不起你啊政治措施在這裡啊請問你有沒有巡打?有沒有巡打?"},{"start":480.242,"end":487.989,"text":"有沒有巡打?有巡打,怎麼沒有討論呢?當然有討論,怎麼沒有呢?處理的過程,審查會六次,怎麼沒有?怎麼會這樣子呢?另外,有時間不多,我就挑重點來講啦,你們來看啊,來,你們發大新聞來啊"},{"start":503.904,"end":513.553,"text":"完全政治化的新聞稿說 哦 竟然會再播出去我們114年是你們寫的哦 財政部寫的哦114年給地方1.15兆 如果再發出去3753會影響經濟發展 影響社會福利 影響官方安全 真鬼哦"},{"start":523.342,"end":535.568,"text":"你們審計部的報告,審計部的報告,你聽我講,2021年稅金剩餘喔,你開了就完了,2979億,2022年4993億,2023年2791億,你們根本就是有3千億到5千億根本花都花不完,怎麼會影響你的政府,笑死人啦,這個就政治語言,隨便講講啦"},{"start":551.016,"end":559.242,"text":"我跟委員報告我是覺得財化法是這樣啦是說不管誰執政這是一個根本大法我現在跟地方都理性討論從我們的溝通但是現在通過的我們現在意識說"},{"start":574.595,"end":581.301,"text":"在討論過程當中,執政黨的相關委員的發言都沒有採納。第二個問題就是說,目前對地方的財政資源已經達到一兆多了。"},{"start":594.933,"end":605.84,"text":"所以你現在什麼事情都沒有影響你就發3000多億給地方政府有什麼問題呢照樣做什麼意思講影響國防最主要影響什麼國防你還剩3000億到5000億你每年剩3000億到5000億那個錢給地方政府有什麼不對"},{"start":612.705,"end":635.07,"text":"我跟委員報告我是覺得財化不是不能夠修正但是我是說大家一定要充分討論你講這個話都聽不懂啊卵巿長啊你講話都聽不懂啊我一直跟你講你都沒有回答我你每年剩三千里到五千里那個錢給地方政府有什麼不對有什麼問題有什麼問題"},{"start":638.451,"end":645.953,"text":"如果再增加三千七百五十三億,再加上金融大樓條文一般賭注款又不能減少：賴士葆"},{"start":662.557,"end":689.558,"text":"我們看六都啊我們只要看兩個一個統籌社款一個補助收入補助包括一般補助跟中央補助第一名高雄市第二名新北市第三名台北市台北市沒有拿最多啦第三名113年台北市第四名114年預算案台北市第五名啦"},{"start":690.499,"end":693.58,"text":"臺北市給他416億臺北市就是這樣"},{"start":708.49,"end":731.833,"text":"他們跟華老爸講完了,那個郭文營稍微修理了一下,這個很重要。臺北市增加416億,總共就是只有1277億。要輸高雄是不是輸天天天的?高雄還是第一,整個用都是第一,第一,它不是第一就是第二,你再加上去還是第一。"},{"start":732.293,"end":737.515,"text":"沒有啦,我覺得這個數字是可以說話。我數字在這裡,我數字在這裡什麼叫沒有?我數字在這裡,數字在這裡,所以那個,那個次長啊,你今天的回答啊,"},{"start":750.078,"end":767.162,"text":"不知所云﹚完全不進入狀況﹚心虛啊社長﹚不會啦﹚你今天來這裡啊﹚不怕你說什麼這樣啦﹚不會啦﹚我跟你講數字我跟你講數字統籌分配稅款要加補助款這個才是全部的臺北市112年第3名、112年第4名、112年第5名再加統籌分配稅款臺北市遠入後"},{"start":779.705,"end":782.931,"text":"我最後一句話我最後一句話我最後一句話"},{"start":794.264,"end":810.936,"text":"你們每一年剩了快三千億到五千億那些錢給地方大家都很高啊所以不要苦窮什麼還恐嚇左融派開始恐嚇老百姓期需那時候老百姓說天災你自己五千"},{"start":812.097,"end":836.59,"text":"卓榮泰、石岩、所有的平民講話,毫不進入狀況,這些東西我再講一遍,我就下去了。主席你三名,你稍安勿躁了,113年台北市第三名,113年台北市第四名,114年台北市第五名,現在台北市以後第五名。"},{"start":837.33,"end":837.73,"text":"接著請郭國文委員那個花言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時43分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請兆豐董董事長以及101的賈董事長，兩位長官請。"],["主席：好，兆豐董董事長、賈永媫董事長。"],["賴委員士葆：先請教兆豐的董董事長，你知道今年應該獲利創新高吧？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，還好。"],["賴委員士葆：還好是創新高嗎？"],["董董事長瑞斌：沒有，沒有比去年更好，因為我們在美國CRE那部分，我們受傷滿嚴重的。"],["賴委員士葆：虧了一些啦！"],["董董事長瑞斌：對。"],["賴委員士葆：但是如果美國不算，就創新高啦？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對。"],["賴委員士葆：對吧？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們打銷呆帳沒錯。"],["賴委員士葆：美國那部分如果不算，因為上一次的問題、法遵的問題，如果沒有的話就創新高。好，我現在的重點在於年終獎金要給多少？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，我們現在還在核算，不過應該不會比去年……"],["賴委員士葆：平均多少？去年多少？"],["董董事長瑞斌：去年大概可以到七、八個月。"],["賴委員士葆：七、八個月。"],["董董事長瑞斌：對，所有的獎金全部加起來。"],["賴委員士葆：不會比去年差吧？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們希望能夠維持同樣的幅度。"],["賴委員士葆：所以可以上看8個月，這句話可以成立吧？"],["董董事長瑞斌：希望可以。"],["賴委員士葆：上看8個月！"],["董董事長瑞斌：希望可以達到這個目標。"],["賴委員士葆：好，明年加薪的幅度呢？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，3%，因為我們……"],["賴委員士葆：上次在這裡你說4%，怎麼縮水了？"],["董董事長瑞斌：沒有、沒有，3%而已。"],["賴委員士葆：我聽錯了嗎？"],["董董事長瑞斌：沒有，我們另外還有每一年加薪晉級。"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪。"],["董董事長瑞斌：每一年我們還有加薪晉級，那一部分大概快一點多percent，所以那是自然的，每一年不管有沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：明年軍公教加多少？"],["董董事長瑞斌：3%啊！"],["賴委員士葆：3%？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對。"],["賴委員士葆：兆豐這麼賺錢，跟政府一樣？漏氣啦！"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：漏氣啦！"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們獎金可以多發，但是薪水就比照公教人員調整。謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：好。請教賈董事長。"],["賈董事長永媫：主席好、委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你今年比去年賺錢吧？"],["賈董事長永媫：是，我們的營業額增加了大概七點多%。"],["賴委員士葆：七點多%，那年終獎金怎麼樣？"],["賈董事長永媫：我們的年終獎金其實是很不錯的，對於員工的福利是一個很不錯的數字……"],["賴委員士葆：具體一點，「很不錯」我聽不懂，具體一點。"],["賈董事長永媫：可是這個數字我好像沒有辦法公開耶……"],["賴委員士葆：去年有什麼……兆豐都可以公開？為什麼你不能公開？"],["賈董事長永媫：因為我要報告董事會，董事會沒有要我公開，我不能公開。"],["賴委員士葆：去年的你知道嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：去年我不知道。"],["賴委員士葆：你要來這裡要做功課，你不能說去年不知道。"],["賈董事長永媫：喔！好。"],["賴委員士葆：至少今年比去年多吧？可以吧？承諾這一點可以嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：這個部分，我真的沒有辦法確切的……我知道今年的數字，今年的數字也是……"],["賴委員士葆：今年比去年好，所以當然獎金也比去年多啊！"],["賈董事長永媫：好，謝謝委員幫我們的員工爭取這麼多的福利。"],["賴委員士葆：當然啊！"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝、謝謝，很感謝。"],["賴委員士葆：明年也一樣，明年的加薪幅度呢？"],["賈董事長永媫：加薪幅度啊！我覺得我的答案……"],["賴委員士葆：要不要加薪？你要不要加薪？"],["賈董事長永媫：沒有、沒有，我的答案要跟董董事長一樣……"],["賴委員士葆：一樣，就3%？"],["賈董事長永媫：不是、不是，我們就是會按照比例，然後我們還有各方面的考績，還有評效……"],["賴委員士葆：董事長，你現在不是只有過去的身分，你現在某種程度是官員、類官員，類似官員。"],["賈董事長永媫：好。"],["賴委員士葆：我幫你算了，你去年EPS 1.15。"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：你說今年比去年好，好歹最少1.25、1.3……"],["賈董事長永媫：好像可以更好一點，是。"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：所以今年當然獎金要多一點啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：好，謝謝委員一直幫大家，我們台北101的同事應該會很愛你，真的。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你就跟我在這裡具體承諾說：好，我就這樣做。"],["賈董事長永媫：我沒有辦法承諾，我要跟董事會做報告，如果董事會都同意，我們當然是OK啊！"],["賴委員士葆：董事長，你可以講說：我希望這樣，最後經過董事會同意。這樣就可以啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：是、是、是，但是我們今年……"],["賴委員士葆：不是「是、是、是」，我聽不懂，你到底心目中有沒有準備給多少啦？"],["賈董事長永媫：我心目中已經有確切的數字了，真的，而且我們在12月18號開董事會的時候，今年所有該發的獎金都已經確認了，確認了月數，確實都確認好了。"],["賴委員士葆：那個不是什麼機密，我們來立法院這裡基本上是如實作答，是憲法規定的，要講實話，沒什麼機密，這沒什麼機密的。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：而且替你宣傳，替你宣傳，有什麼機密？"],["賈董事長永媫：總經理，我確認我們可以講出實際的數字嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：當然可以啊，為什麼不能講？奇怪。"],["賈董事長永媫：不行、不行，不能講，因為真的董事會沒有要我講，我不能講，不好意思，還是我之後補資料給你？"],["賴委員士葆：好吧，你補資料給我。你今年的煙火跟誰同框？"],["賈董事長永媫：我們是秘密薪資，要保密協議。"],["賴委員士葆：我說EPS，我沒有講個人，講overall的，這不是什麼機密了，你這個觀念太……"],["賈董事長永媫：overall我講出來之後，你算一算，你也知道啊。"],["賴委員士葆：我不知道咧！"],["賈董事長永媫：你剛剛自己明明說你會算。"],["賴委員士葆：我資質駑鈍啦！我不知道咧！"],["賈董事長永媫：好啦，委員，我收到，我會很努力地把在經營方面的數字、獲利……"],["賴委員士葆：所以我剛剛講的EPS 1.3是沒有問題的啦，對不對？"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：1.3沒問題。","去年煙火跟蔣萬安，今年除了蔣萬安，有沒有其他人同框，這可以講吧？"],["賈董事長永媫：蔣萬安，然後……"],["賴委員士葆：去年跨年煙火秀是跟蔣萬安同框。"],["賈董事長永媫：是、是。"],["賴委員士葆：今年除了蔣萬安以外，有沒有其他人？"],["賈董事長永媫：我當然很期望跟蔣萬安市長，我們今年應該就是一樣，我在上個禮拜跟TVBS那邊開了製播會議，因為TVBS是轉播市政府的……"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要請財政部長啊？財政部長是你的長官。"],["賈董事長永媫：可以啊，我如果請得到財政部長，當然好啊！"],["賴委員士葆：每一個委員看法不一樣啦，你跟你老公再怎麼恩愛，用那個看板弄一個「永婕同心」，賈董事長，不宜啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：喔，好。"],["賴委員士葆：這個不宜啦，因為你們怎麼秀恩愛就在旁邊的地方，但這是一個公共的平臺，你用那個的話，人家就會講公器私用，雖然你不認為這樣子，可是你說你捐錢就可以，話不是這樣講，董事長，你現在某種程度等於是官員，你的作風舉止要跟你過去的身分不一樣，要比較嚴謹，OK？"],["賈董事長永媫：好啦，了解、了解。"],["賴委員士葆：了解喔？"],["賈董事長永媫：了解。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你們兩位請回吧。請財政部次長。"],["賈董事長永媫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：賈董事長，要正向回答委員對你的提問。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：次長，你剛才回答的時候都隨便講講，完全政治語言啊，什麼叫沒有討論？財劃法從今年5月20號第1次審查，審查會6次，公聽會2次，朝野協商1次，委員發言168次，還有詢答，總共經歷了38小時48分鐘，怎麼會說沒有討論呢？你不能變成通通政治化。阮次長，你今天講這個話，我鄙視你啊！我瞧不起你啊！數字在這裡啊！"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：請問有沒有詢答？有沒有詢答？"],["阮次長清華：有詢答。"],["賴委員士葆：有詢答，那怎麼沒有討論呢？當然有討論，怎麼會沒有呢？"],["阮次長清華：但是……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼沒有呢？處理的過程，審查會6次，怎麼沒有？怎麼會這樣子呢？隨便講講。另外，我的時間不多，我就挑重點來講。"],["阮次長清華：其實，報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：來，我們來看，你們發了新聞稿，完全政治化的新聞稿，說再撥出去的話，這是你們寫的、財政部寫的，114年給地方1.15兆，如果再發出去3,753億，會影響經濟發展、影響社會福利、影響國防安全，見鬼喔！審計部的報告……"],["阮次長清華：這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你聽我講完，2021年歲計賸餘沒花完的有2,979億，2022年4,993億，2023年2,790億，你們就是有3,000億到5,000億根本花都花不完，怎麼會影響你的政務？笑死人啦，這個就是政治語言，隨便講講啦！"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我是覺得財劃法是這樣，不管誰執政，這是一個根本大法……"],["賴委員士葆：不要隨便回答我，我時間有限……"],["阮次長清華：我們要跟地方能夠理性討論、充分溝通……"],["賴委員士葆：理性討論，我們開過6次審查會啦！"],["阮次長清華：但是現在通過的……"],["賴委員士葆：已經開過6次審查會了，怎麼沒有理性討論？"],["阮次長清華：我的意思是說，在討論過程當中，執政黨相關委員的發言都沒有採納，這是第一個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼沒有討論？開過6次審查會啦！"],["阮次長清華：第二個問題就是說，目前對地方的財政支援已經達到一兆多了……"],["賴委員士葆：你就有剩錢，每一年都賸餘3,000億到5,000億，所以現在什麼事情都沒有影響，你就發三千多億給地方政府，有什麼問題呢？照樣做，一直講影響國防，影響什麼國防？你還賸餘3,000億到5,000億，你每年賸餘3,000億到5,000億，那個錢給地方政府有什麼不對？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我是覺得財劃法不是不能夠修正的……"],["賴委員士葆：你講的沒有針對問題啊！"],["阮次長清華：但是我是覺得大家一定要充分討論，因為這是根本大法。"],["賴委員士葆：你講這個話，我聽不懂。阮次長，你講話我聽不懂，我一直跟你講，你都沒有回答我，你每年賸餘3,000億到5,000億，那個錢給地方政府有什麼不對？有什麼問題？"],["阮次長清華：但是問題是那些東西如果再增加3,753億，再加上另外一個條文，一般補助款又不能減少……"],["賴委員士葆：還有剩啊！還有剩啊！你怎麼估……來，好好講，有關補助款，我們來看……"],["阮次長清華：在這種情況之下，的確中央的……"],["賴委員士葆：請你看一下資料，我做功課的，大家看，來，我們看六都，主要看兩個，一個統籌稅款，一個補助收入，補助包括一般補助跟中央的補助，第一名高雄市，第二名新北市，第三名臺北市，臺北市沒有拿最多啦！113年臺北市第四名，114年的預算，臺北市第五名啦，你聽我講，你不要一直插嘴，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["賴委員士葆：新的財劃法，高雄給它245億，加起來1,474億，臺北市給它416億，臺北市很多。","你不用喊我啦！我把它講完，郭委員稍微忍耐一下，這個很重要。臺北市增加416億，總共就是只有1,277億，還輸高雄市輸得很慘，高雄還是第一，怎麼樣都是第一，它不是第一就是第二，你再加上去還是第一……"],["阮次長清華：沒有啦，我覺得這個數字會說話……"],["賴委員士葆：事實在這裡，我數字給你看，數字在這裡，什麼叫沒有？數字在這裡、數字在這裡，所以次長，你今天的回答不知所云，嗯嗯啊啊，完全不進入狀況，心虛啊！"],["阮次長清華：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：次長，你今天來這裡不知道在說什麼，都在「黑龍繞桌」，我跟你講數字，統籌分配稅款要加補助款，這個才是全部的，臺北市112年第三名、113年第四名、114年第五名，再加上統籌分配稅款臺北市遠落後高雄市，輸了200億，這是事實！這是事實！"],["阮次長清華：但是財政收支劃分法就是……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一句話，我最後只有一句話，你們每一年賸了快3,000億到5,000億，那些錢給地方，大家就很足夠了，所以不要哭窮什麼！卓榮泰開始恐嚇老百姓、情緒勒索老百姓，說以後天災要自己負責，卓榮泰失言、隨隨便便講話，毫不進入狀況！"],["主席：賴士葆委員，時間到了。"],["賴委員士葆：我要再講一遍，我就下去了，主席，你稍安勿躁。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，你超過很久了。"],["賴委員士葆：112年臺北市第三名、113年臺北市第四名、114年臺北市第五名，現在臺北市一樣第五名，可憐啊！大家看一下臺北市不是這樣子，大家都一直罵臺北市。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。"],["賴委員士葆：主席，你別緊張，你們臺南市……"],["主席：我已經多給你好幾分鐘了，郭國文委員一直在下面跟我抗議。"],["賴委員士葆：臺南市的要忌妒高雄市的。"],["主席：我的臺南市很慘，我的農業縣很慘。"],["賴委員士葆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接著請郭國文委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158360","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a985dfcf055448be262c24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3dbdc5e57efa5a3b9045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:32:22 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沒看過,因為我們在算第一個版本的時候,他第二個版本就出來了。第二個版本算好,又第三個版本就出來了嘛。所以,這個叫做突襲性的立法啦。立法院多數版本完全不讓人家知道,表決前幾分鐘拿給你。然後我們多數,我們舉手就把你碾壓過去了嘛。"},{"start":85.069,"end":95.858,"text":"這是先談程序啦程序非常的不正義所以現在擠啊他知道通過之後社會大中要算帳啊"},{"start":97.242,"end":116.57,"text":"所以急了在這個地方才趕快這邊發言不然為什麼講跟今天的主題完全都沒有相關的事情呢?是第二個你剛剛講的很對啊財政收支劃分當然錢跟權要一起來分配嘛是啊新北市政府突然之間拿到300多億"},{"start":119.382,"end":130.832,"text":"過去從現在往前推4年新北市政府為例他的財政全部都是plus就是他有剩餘結果現在立法突然要給他300多億"},{"start":133.366,"end":149.025,"text":"臺北市的更多那你又沒有讓他要多做什麼事情突然天山掉下來幾百億市政府要怎麼花這條錢我們沒有人知道啊他也沒有法定義務的增加啊"},{"start":150.618,"end":173.33,"text":"所以這個是非常的不合理嘛所以我跟委員報告這一次的問題就第一個垂直分配完全沒有討論釋出太多會衝擊到中央的施政好我再因為今年的主題有關所以我速度稍微快一點你我都心知肚明第三他剛剛放影片說很多縣市長都在說那是2012年的時候對不對對那2012年請問馬英九從2008年到2016年當總統"},{"start":178.673,"end":187.178,"text":"國民黨如果這麼著急財政收支劃分法當時國民黨立法院的多數啊我第8屆立委的時候民進黨只有40席第7屆民進黨更只有27席"},{"start":192.335,"end":214.998,"text":"那是完全免押為什麼他們不通過顯然有非常大的困難嘛那時候我全程在場那時候全程在場那時候呢就是也就是大家都沒有共識嘛這件事情就是因為要凝聚各縣市的共識所以有非常大的困難馬英九當總統那八年"},{"start":216.019,"end":239.04,"text":"大家有一再講說這個財政宣傳法來討論他也沒有辦法他也通不過啊國民黨在說立法院委員的比例還更多數啊那他們執政的時候有困難到了現在民進黨執政民進黨也有困難需要比較長的時間來凝聚公司的時候他們就不行了他們就要碾壓了嘛事實就是這樣嘛"},{"start":240.297,"end":240.918,"text":"主席"},{"start":264.151,"end":291.012,"text":"馬上就要元旦了是元旦101大樓會放煙火是準備了怎麼樣其實我跟委員報告一下這個準備是經過一個非常長時間的整個計畫我上任之前8月底的時候整個煙火的預算已經結標了廠商已經拿到這個標案了我是9月3號的時候上任上任之後大概第二天就開始開這個煙火會議了"},{"start":292.273,"end":317.334,"text":"那當時設定的主題呢在我上任之前設定的主題是共創美好未來那那個時候我會覺得說這個主題可能稍微規矩了一點所以呢我們就把它改成了Amazing Taiwan我們是第二次是這個主題的版本那接下來呢就有不斷的煙火的討論的會議最後呢我們確定的是這一次的今年的煙火呢是5加1分鐘"},{"start":318.195,"end":342.867,"text":"往年通常都是五分鐘那今年呢我們有加碼了一分鐘那在發書的方面呢一定也會讓國人非常的驚豔另外就是我們也加了雷射有雷射秀還有呢之前我都還沒有曝光的一個部分就是光雕那在光雕的部分呢是很感謝由我們國泰世華這邊獨家贊助那在光雕的部分全部都是我們臺灣英雄"},{"start":344.608,"end":358.183,"text":"他們會用一個我要先保密不同的形式出場所以我想其實在這個代表我們臺灣我們最後是因為棒球得了冠軍我們就用Team Taiwan一個冠軍獎盃然後Champion"},{"start":359.605,"end":378.573,"text":"那所有的音樂的剪輯呢我再接下來可能就乾脆把所有的音樂都一起公佈因為音樂呢它是非常振奮人心的全部都是用我們臺灣在地的流行音樂然後也是我們耳熟能詳的音樂一定有臺灣雄勇在這個部分"},{"start":380.274,"end":397.712,"text":"因為國人對這個101的煙火很期待啦所以你一定要很戒慎、小心、要謹慎、要把它放好因為我前面聽到有一些媒體的報導說或是網路啊就說你國慶日的時候的煙火放了之後他們不滿意啦他們不滿意啦"},{"start":398.393,"end":400.695,"text":"國慶營火是一直以來往年從來都沒有過的我上任之後我會覺得說其實在國慶的時候我們也應該"},{"start":414.787,"end":444.787,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":444.787,"end":472.81,"text":"我希望我會一直去拜拜希望老天爺給我一個非常好的天氣謝謝董事長你上任了之後真的做了很多事情你很會募款我有一些好朋友跟你也有朋友關係是他都問我想說很怕你因為你都一直跟人家要錢對我很怕我的朋友都不接我電話了你譬如說舉一個例子所以是為了要這個為偏鄉的棒球基層棒球選手做一些設備的補助所以你有去一個點燈活動是"},{"start":474.531,"end":503.13,"text":"找了幾家廠商,一家廠商60萬是,我們總共找了10家廠商一家60萬就募了600萬再加上我們101的200萬所以總共800萬全數捐出捐出要做這個基層棒球的捐助其中被拿來當話題的就是因為你跟你的先生感情很好然後因為你的先生跟你有一個永傑同心這個在媒體上被"},{"start":504.551,"end":509.433,"text":"我昨天已經把永潔童心拿到阿妹的演唱會上然後阿妹也很開心的跟我一起跟永潔童心合照大概是走這個方向"},{"start":529.241,"end":557.398,"text":"那個評論我是希望你說明在哪裡他們說你是公器私用獨立自己有沒有這回事可是我們是付了一樣的贊助的金額那另外我可以跟委員等一下我一定要跟委員報告就是我接下來還有下一步因為全民都很想要放閃所以接下來我在24號、25號我邀請了全民一起點燈放閃全民都可以放閃這是一個行銷的計畫"},{"start":558.519,"end":577.37,"text":"所以你那個放閃你先生也是你先生家庭的公司家裡的公司也是捐了60萬跟其他的廠商一樣就對了基本上有一點私企公用那你點的時間有沒有比別人長沒有 全部都一樣這是私企公用私企公用要獨立自己才叫私企公用"},{"start":578.05,"end":578.29,"text":"最後一個問題"},{"start":598.672,"end":625.115,"text":"因為你們都一直滿足啦有人一直在跟我們反映說他想要進去都進不去你們這個方面的標準是一定要到國際的高代價品牌才能夠進入嗎?是,我們一定要是非常就是具有這種國際競爭力的品牌然後也希望是對我們臺灣的未來譬如說科技產業、醫療生技產業、AI產業希望是以這樣子的產業為主目標還有金融產業"},{"start":625.896,"end":654.511,"text":"就是說你們因為滿租所以是賣租方市場你要挑客人就對了啦可以是這麼說對然後我們也希望能夠把租金條件談到台北101比較好的畢竟101是我們臺灣一個非常象徵性的大樓如果能夠做到高標準高指標然後經營得很好對臺灣是件非常好的事情謝謝委員請董事長跟總經理都要加油好不好謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝接著請耐斯堡委員花妍"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時32分）請阮次長。"],["主席：阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛我在台下看感觸很深，如果在修法、在財政委員會可以這樣對話多好！哪一位委員有意見，可以請教財政部、請教其他縣市政府的財主單位，至少還有一個討論的過程！"],["阮次長清華：是啊。"],["吳委員秉叡：財政委員會在審財政收支劃分法的時候，有給我們發言的機會嗎？有讓你們發言的機會嗎？"],["阮次長清華：沒有。"],["吳委員秉叡：3分鐘在這個地方，條文唸一唸，連條次都沒唸就通過了，送到院會去，當時的版本是6,000億耶！結果在院會二讀之前也沒有經過政黨協商，到了要審的時候、要表決的時候突然拿一個草案出來，那個草案是我從頭到尾都沒有看過的，也沒有討論過，你們有看過嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我們也沒看過，因為我們在算第一個版本的時候，第二個版本就出來了，第二個版本算好以後，又第三個版本出來了。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以這個叫突襲性的立法！利用立法院多數，版本完全不讓人家知道，表決前幾分鐘拿給你，多數舉手就把你輾壓過去。"],["阮次長清華：是，我覺得財劃法是國家財政……"],["吳委員秉叡：這個是先談程序，程序非常地不正義，所以現在急啊！知道通過後社會大眾要算帳啊！急了才趕快在這邊發言，不然怎麼會講跟今天主題沒有相關的事情呢？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個，財政收支劃分，當然錢跟權要一起來分配嘛！"],["阮次長清華：是啊。"],["吳委員秉叡：新北市政府突然拿到三百多億，從現在往前推4年，以新北市政府為例，財政全部都是plus，就是有賸餘，結果現在立法突然要給它三百多億……"],["阮次長清華：臺北市更多。"],["吳委員秉叡：臺北市更多，又沒有要讓它多做什麼事情，突然天上掉下來幾百億，市政府要怎麼花這條錢？沒有人知道，它也沒有法定義務的增加，所以這是非常地不合理。"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，這一次的問題，第一個垂直分配完全沒有討論，釋出太多，會衝擊到中央的施政，這是第一個……"],["吳委員秉叡：好，我針對今天的主題發問，所以速度稍微快一點，你我都心知肚明。第三，他剛剛放影片說很多縣市長都在說，那是2012年的時候，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：請問馬英九從2008年到2016年當總統，國民黨如果這麼著急財政收支劃分法，當時國民黨是立法院的多數啊！我第8屆立委的時候民進黨只有40席，第7屆民進黨更只有27席，那是完全輾壓，為什麼他們不通過？顯然有非常大的困難嘛！"],["阮次長清華：是，那時候我全程在場，當時就是大家都沒有共識，我覺得這個是基本大法……"],["吳委員秉叡：是呀！這件事情就是因為要凝聚各縣市的共識，所以有非常大的困難，馬英九當總統那8年大家也一再講說財政收支劃分法要討論，他也沒有辦法啊！他也通不過啊！國民黨那時候在立法院的委員比例還更多數啊！那他們執政時候有困難，到了現在民進黨執政，民進黨也有困難，需要比較長的時間來凝聚共識的時候，他們就不行了，他們就要輾壓了嘛！事實就是這樣嘛！請你回座。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：請101賈董事長跟朱總經理。"],["賈董事長永媫：委員好、主席好。"],["吳委員秉叡：你好。馬上就要元旦了嘛！"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：元旦101大樓會放煙火嘛！"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：準備得怎麼樣？"],["賈董事長永媫：其實我跟委員報告一下，這個準備是經過一個非常長時間的整個計畫，在我上任之前8月底的時候，整個煙火的預算已經結標了，廠商已經拿到這個標案了，我是9月3號的時候上任，上任之後大概第二天就開始開這個煙火會議了，當時設定的主題，在我上任之前設定的主題是「共創美好未來」，那個時候我會覺得這個主題可能稍微規矩了一點，所以我們就把它改成了「Amazing Taiwan我們」，第二次是這個主題的版本，接下來就有不斷的煙火討論會議，最後我們確定今年的煙火是5加1分鐘，往年通常都是5分鐘，今年我們有加碼了1分鐘，在發數的方面，一定也會讓國人非常地驚豔。另外就是我們也加了雷射，有雷射秀，還有之前我都還沒有曝光的一個部分，就是光雕，在光雕的部分是很感謝由國泰世華獨家贊助，光雕的部分全部都是我們臺灣英雄，他們會用一個不同的形式出場，這部分我要先保密。所以我想在代表我們臺灣的部分，我們最後是因為棒球得了冠軍，我們就用Team Taiwan一個冠軍獎盃，然後Champion，所有的音樂剪輯，我在接下來可能就乾脆把所有的音樂都一起公布，因為音樂它是非常振奮人心的，全部都是用我們臺灣在地的流行音樂，然後也是我們耳熟能詳的音樂，一定有「台灣尚勇」在這個部分。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝你。因為國人對這個101的煙火很期待。"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你一定要很戒慎小心、要謹慎，要把它放好。"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為前面我聽到有一些媒體報導，或是網路，對於你國慶日的煙火放了他們不滿意，他們不滿意啦！你是不是說明一下？"],["賈董事長永媫：好，我可以說明一下。預算的部分，老實說，國慶煙火是一直以來往年從來都沒有過的，我上任之後我會覺得，其實在國慶的時候，我們也應該要讓世界看到我們臺灣這個國家在慶祝我們的國慶，所以在那個時候非常有限的預算，而且是時間非常趕的時候，我沒有辦法跟所有企業招商，所以我就從我的辦公室裡面擠出了170萬的預算，這個可能是跨年煙火十分之一都不到。在跨年煙火的部分，請放心，我們準備好了，我會一直去拜拜，希望老天爺給我一個非常好的天氣，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：董事長，你上任之後真的做了很多事情，你很會募款，我有一些好朋友跟你也有朋友關係，他都跟我講他很怕你，因為你都一直跟他們要錢。"],["賈董事長永媫：對，我很怕我的朋友都不接我電話了。"],["吳委員秉叡：譬如說，我舉一個例子，這次為了要為偏鄉的基層棒球選手做一些設備的補助，所以你有去一個點燈的活動，找了幾家廠商，一家廠商60萬。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，我們總共找了10家廠商。"],["吳委員秉叡：一家60萬，就募了600萬。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，再加上我們101的200萬，總共800萬，全數捐出。"],["吳委員秉叡：捐出要做基層棒球的捐助嘛！"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：其中被拿來當話題的，就是因為你跟你的先生感情很好，然後因為你的先生跟你有一個「永婕同心」，這個在媒體上被評論啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：對這個你有什麼說明？"],["賈董事長永媫：接下來我們可能會規劃一些關於「永婕同心」的相關商品，它會變成一個IP，譬如說我們的台北101，然後我們會做一個帽T──「永婕同心」，我昨天已經把「永婕同心」拿到阿妹的演唱會上，然後阿妹也很開心地跟我一起、跟「永婕同心」合照，大概是走這個方向啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：那個評論我是希望你說明在哪裡呢？他們說你是公器私用、圖利自己，有沒有這回事？"],["賈董事長永媫：可是我們付了一樣的贊助金額，另外……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你說……"],["賈董事長永媫：等一下、等一下，我一定要跟委員報告，就是我接下來還有下一步，因為全民都很想要放閃，所以接下來我在24號、25號邀請全民一起點燈放閃，全民都可以放閃，這是一個行銷的計畫。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你那個放閃，你先生家裡的公司也是捐了60萬，跟其他的廠商一樣就對了？"],["賈董事長永媫：是。基本上有一點私器公用。"],["吳委員秉叡：那你點的時間和其他幾家相比，有沒有比別人長？"],["賈董事長永媫：沒有，完全沒有，全部都一樣，字數……"],["吳委員秉叡：我不認為這是私器公用，私器公用要圖利自己才叫私器公用，不然有人有意願的話，就拿60萬去點燈，一樣捐助基層的棒球，我是很認同喔！"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：每天都點的話，那我們臺灣的棒球就一直非常地發展，經費永遠都不缺啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：是，可以希望，在這邊也可以告訴所有企業，或者是所有想放閃的人，你們都可以來點燈，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：最後一個問題，因為你們都一直滿租，有人一直來跟我反映說他想要進去都進不去，你們這個方面的標準是一定要到國際的高規格品牌才能夠進入嗎？"],["賈董事長永媫：是，我們一定要是非常具有國際競爭力的品牌，然後也希望是對我們臺灣的未來，譬如說科技產業、醫療、生技產業、AI產業，希望是以這樣子的產業為主目標，還有金融產業。"],["吳委員秉叡：就是說，你們因為滿租，所以是租方市場，你要挑客人就對了啦！"],["賈董事長永媫：可以是這麼說，然後我們也希望能夠把租金條件談到對台北101比較好的。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，加油喔！畢竟101是我們臺灣一個非常象徵性的大樓，如果能夠做到高標準、高指標，然後經營得很好，對臺灣是一件非常好的事情。"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：請董事長跟總經理都要加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["賈董事長永媫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接著請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},{"id":"158359","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158359","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98fc88440cf4aa66acc24503a7538def0615d69c0b6ad2f3db1da20d41cb0576d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:21:25 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阮次長我很尊重你但是喔 我很清楚特別預算就是排除整個預算那你"},{"start":123.062,"end":142.975,"text":"來,我請教,來,我有一個片子讓你看,來,那個是不是把它播放?臺北看天下,不顧地方一個生死,那如果不是的話是說,任何一個副主席的總統都不應該把我們在這次發展的這個發展,放在一邊都不一樣,一天只能說一些有的沒的,我認為這是不應該的,為了讓我們的發展,大家來倒下手,要求他們花錢2028年,貴啊好,要求啊好,這個財化法和公債法都已經通過,"},{"start":150.86,"end":175.451,"text":"這個情況更加讓高雄市未來的財政更加的困難非常不公平的對高雄市是一種懲罰如果財劃法不改變那麼中央跟地方的關係就像是一個峻層的關係今天我們最大的訴求這一次的財劃法一定要優先排進去所以我們認為最優先應該是財政收入保護法今天我們民進黨怎麼可能再讓這個議題讓馬來西亞再回分"},{"start":176.212,"end":192.153,"text":"所以我們認為這次林子維財政法是一個很重要優先法案不是你馬英九拿三十幾個簡單的法案來讓你投訴來一目了視的在這上面我就說服而已我們要讓馬英九很清楚財政法是民進黨黨派永遠第一優先法案這就是我們的立場"},{"start":192.774,"end":215.779,"text":"當年我在編預算的時候常常是徹夜南北半夜醒過來是全身冷汗從我當主席以來第一件事就是把民進黨執政縣市長約請來黨中央一起大聲的呼籲要趕快通過財政收支化分化這不只是民進黨的問題現在更從藍營的縣市長也紛紛跳出來可知這是不分藍綠的而"},{"start":217.239,"end":218.139,"text":"好我相信齁從這些影片大家清清楚楚"},{"start":237.964,"end":253.963,"text":"律營這些過去當過首長的換了個位置就換了個腦袋那本席是認為說今天修訂財劃法是讓這個因為地方講實在話很多縣市首長"},{"start":254.844,"end":255.224,"text":"今天我認為說"},{"start":272.003,"end":293.417,"text":"因為財政部用中央積極支援地方財政的這個立場來透過中央統籌分配稅款搭配一般性的補助款以及計畫型的補助來益助地方財源難道現在的執政黨我們各位官員這個就是最好的政策嗎"},{"start":294.639,"end":297.382,"text":"跟委員報告我們財政部不會反對財化法來修正但是我們是希望要充分的討論我跟委員報告過去我們但是充分討論"},{"start":312.561,"end":338.801,"text":"要你們提版本你們根本連版本都不提嘛我先跟委員報告幾個數字我們對中央政府對地方政府的依註到114年是達到超過1兆151億那麼這一次沒有經過充分討論的情況之下又額外釋出3753億然後呢第一般的博出款又不能夠往下降"},{"start":339.341,"end":361.412,"text":"所以在這種情況之下一定會衝擊到中央的施政而且會影響到對地方的協助的能力所以說行政院批評財務法修正後中央政府的國庫會變得空虛未來天災來臨時地方政府要自行的等於是具勇敢面對"},{"start":362.372,"end":384.903,"text":"那我請問次長卓院長對國庫空虛這麼有感受那為什麼沒有辦法體會到地方政府也需要這個虛權的控及就是非常需要錢他們真的是嗷嗷待哺已經到了無以復加的地步才會因應其判財化法的修法"},{"start":385.743,"end":407.365,"text":"你有什麼看法跟委員報告卓院長他有發布聲明他說他的發言有被這個斷章取義了但是我們可以想我們現在對中央政府的資源已經達到超過一兆以上如果再額外釋出3753億的話一定會弱化對地方財政的資源"},{"start":408.046,"end":411.33,"text":"那這幾年一直超增,難道你這個都沒有考量進去嗎?連續四年喔!而且超增一兆八千多億喔!"},{"start":426.93,"end":431.151,"text":"所以說你認為說錢放在自己的身上才有安全感這種狀況是中央政府應該有的心態嗎?"},{"start":455.015,"end":473.612,"text":"我是覺得我們我剛才一直在講財化法不是不能修而是要大家充分溝通但是已經給你們一次又一次而且在立法院一樣在這個地方做過主決議但是你們直直不理阿現在又去行政院開記者會阿對不對我是覺得這樣阿在討論過程當中執政黨委員在這邊也充分表達意見"},{"start":479.938,"end":497.536,"text":"但是好像一直都沒有被接受管事長難道中央要集權又集錢地方政府要透過這個搖尾起聯才能夠讓我們掌權掌權的關愛眼神現在這樣是我們執政黨應該奉行的聖經嗎"},{"start":503.632,"end":518.846,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個叫財政收支劃分分我知道啊也就是說你在分的時候跟支就要同時要考慮也就是說權跟錢要同時要考慮那只有釋放3000多億所以財政部全中央並沒有集權的問題"},{"start":519.727,"end":539.559,"text":"沒有局前大家看在眼裡這些縣市首長為什麼剛剛那個影片難道你沒有看嗎對不對這個都是齁那些影片都是他們在包括前院長蘇貞昌包括歷任很多縣市首長他們的心聲啦尤其"},{"start":541.983,"end":567.313,"text":"賴總統他在當總統以前在台南市長這是他講的話我們是把他的話帶到今天讓大家來瞭解你不要換了一個位置就換了個腦袋而且真的很多我們地方的縣市他們真的苦哈哈的而且講實在話這個是不分藍綠因為財化法修訂以後每個縣市"},{"start":569.215,"end":596.303,"text":"就照財化法的規定該給要給那你行政院長又說以後的災害中央完全沒有責任然後又帶到什麼教育啦什麼國防啦講實在話我認為像這樣的官員真的實在是換了位子換了腦袋又來欺騙老百姓是很不應該那你今天早上又去開記者會我看要看他看記者會內容怎麼講"},{"start":596.983,"end":624.513,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們的對中央對地方的採取的依註從民國103年那時候才5000多億但是現在成長到114年到超過一兆以上所以這一部分中央從來沒有集錢跟集權所以基本上我們充分來支援那你釋放給地方讓地方能夠自主哪裡不好啊所以我就覺得要錢跟權要同時討錢要你們提換你們也不提"},{"start":625.413,"end":640.268,"text":"然後這個甚至於啊反正我認為說啦我看他今天那個記者會和他內容怎麼講我認為齁這個已經修過了你們要提各種方法去抵觸沒有關係我們再看好了謝謝謝謝委員謝謝德福接著請吳秉瑞委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時20分）質詢前先給我幾分鐘，我要問問主席。"],["主席：問我？"],["林委員德福：主席，我很尊重你，我們與會各列席官員還有本會的同仁，今天早上我們要開會，其實上個禮拜議程已經列定了、已經送了，今天莊部長沒有來，本席真的有一點意見，但是我還是尊重主席，因為主席讓他請假，為什麼我這麼想法？第一個，因為他10點鐘要在行政院開記者會，他跟陳淑姿主計長兩個人要開記者會，我認為開記者會絕對是針對上個禮拜通過的財劃法，講實在話，你要面對啊，而且……","好，可以開始了，我認為這個要面對，為什麼？因為他對於我們上個禮拜通過的財劃法，請阮次長上來，好不好？來。"],["主席：請阮次長跟林德福委員說明一下。"],["林委員德福：因為立法院上個禮拜通過財劃法修正案，媒體報導財政部深表遺憾，我請問阮次長，面對立法院多數席次立委要求財政部提出修法的版本，而且我們有做過主決議說這個新會期財政部一定要提出來，已經經過半年，但財政部對面對多數的民意，可以說置之不理啦。我認為通過以後，你才來說深表遺憾，你們會不會認為感到羞愧？會不會？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，財劃法這一部分因為涉及到財源的分配……"],["林委員德福：這個我都很清楚，阮次長，你會不會認為感到很羞愧嘛？"],["阮次長清華：不會啊，我覺得這個東西涉及到資源的分配，所以……"],["林委員德福：阮次長，我統計過，在今年度（113年度）到年底最少超徵4,900億，112年超徵多少？3,860億，111年超徵5,237億，110年超徵4,227億，總共4年加起來一兆八千多億，平均每年超徵多少？4,500億。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們雖然……剛才委員提到的是總預算裡面稅收的實徵數超過預算數，但是如果我們把總預算跟特別預算合併來算的話，我們這幾年幾乎都是赤字……"],["林委員德福：你特別預算不能併在裡面，你不要跟我來這一套，我跟你講，阮次長，我很尊重你，但是我很清楚，特別預算就是排除整個預算。","來，我有一個片子讓你看，是不是把它播放？","（播放影片）"],["林委員德福：好，我相信從這些影片，大家清清楚楚，綠營這些過去當過首長的，換了位子就換了腦袋，本席是認為今天修訂財劃法，而且講實在話，地方很多縣市他們真的是嗷嗷待哺，每一年都透過我們中央及這些民意代表來反映，希望能夠爭取很多的建設，需要中央給予協助、補助。今天我認為財政部用中央積極支援地方財政的立場，透過中央統籌分配稅款搭配一般性的補助款以及計畫型的補助來挹注地方財源，阮次長，難道對現在的執政黨官員而言，這個就是最好的政策嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我們財政部不會反對……"],["林委員德福：不會反對……"],["阮次長清華：不會反對財劃法來修正……"],["林委員德福：但是你們部長說非常地遺憾啊！"],["阮次長清華：但是我們希望要充分地討論，跟委員報告，過去我們……"],["林委員德福：但是充分討論，要你們提版本，你們根本連版本都不提嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我先跟委員報告幾個數字，中央政府對地方政府的挹注在114年超過1兆151億，這一次沒有經過充分討論的情況之下，又額外釋出3,753億，一般的補助款又不能往下降，在這種情況之下一定會衝擊到中央的施政，而且會影響對地方協助的能力。"],["林委員德福：行政院批評財劃法修正後，中央政府的國庫會變得空虛，未來天災來臨時，地方政府要自行勇敢面對。請問次長，卓院長對國庫空虛這麼有感受，為什麼沒有辦法體會到地方政府也需錢孔急、非常需要錢，真的是嗷嗷待哺到了無以復加的地步，才會殷殷期盼財劃法的修法。你有什麼看法？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，卓院長有發布聲明說發言被斷章取義，但是我們可以試想，現在對中央政府的資源已經超過1兆以上，如果再額外釋出3,753億的話，一定會弱化對地方財政的資源，一定會嘛！不管是碰到建設也好、災害也好……"],["林委員德福：這幾年一直超徵，難道都沒有考量進去嗎？連續4年喔！而且超徵一兆八千多億！"],["阮次長清華：剛才跟委員報告過，稅收只是總預算的一部分，實徵數超過預算數只是總預算，但是我們還有特別預算，中央整個財源目前還是赤字的，如果再額外釋出三千七百多億的話，中央的財政一定更加困難。"],["林委員德福：所以你認為錢放在自己的身上才有安全感，這是中央政府應該有的心態嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我剛才一直在講財劃法不是不能修，而是要大家充分溝通討論……"],["林委員德福：但是已經給你們一次又一次，而且一樣在立法院這個地方做過主決議，你們遲遲不理，現在又去行政院開記者會，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得在討論的過程當中，執政黨委員也充分表達意見，但是好像一直沒有被接受。"],["林委員德福：阮次長，難道中央要集權又集錢，地方政府要透過搖尾乞憐才能夠得到掌權、掌錢者的關愛眼神？這是現在執政黨應該奉行的聖經嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員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月經本會期第9次全體委員會報告及詢答結束並以15次會議開始進行預算審查本次會議繼續進行為省郡單位之預算審查首先我們介紹在場委員及列席官員我們在場委員有高金素美委員"},{"start":2928.383,"end":2956.485,"text":"劉許廷委員丁學忠委員張志倫委員徐宇貞委員黃建斌委員麥益臻委員王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃潔委員李博義委員"},{"start":2959.003,"end":2984.93,"text":"有內政部長劉世芳、國土署署長吳興修、警政署署長張榮鑫、消防署署長蕭煥章、移民署署長鍾景坤、政務次長董建宏、行政院主計總署公務預算處總務員廖玉琳"},{"start":2999.898,"end":3000.56,"text":"我發的是"},{"start":3029.838,"end":3054.991,"text":"我們今天要審查的是國土署及所屬預算、營建建設基金、國土永續發展基金、警政署所屬、消防署所屬、移民署新住民發展基金。我們現在繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國土署及所屬預算。"},{"start":3059.977,"end":3079.169,"text":"好那我們現在開始審查來我們那個國土署的好我們現在開始審查那我們就隨時協商了好不好就不要再每次講到協商了好不好來"},{"start":3090.325,"end":3097.452,"text":"有沒有我們稅出的部分第二項"},{"start":3117.242,"end":3145.555,"text":"如果沒有我們是不是直接進行第二幕一般行政來第二幕一般行政我們看第二幕一般行政第三五六改組決議只剩第四案第四案"},{"start":3147.986,"end":3157.619,"text":"委員都沒有在啦齁?那我們是不是就照...可以問啦"},{"start":3174.238,"end":3179.301,"text":"誰要問?誰要問?這個我剛一直問都沒有人有意見啦進第二幕啦太快了"},{"start":3193.648,"end":3213.943,"text":"我們說真的,就不在就不主委啦,你可以問高金,你們要問可以問,我就不主委好啦好啦,我的意思是說可以問啦,因為我剛一直講都沒有,我覺得就是問啦,問一問但是...問一下回答一下就好對啦,回答一下就好,因為這個情況就是你不在就不主委,但是可以問"},{"start":3219.607,"end":3246.82,"text":"郭陸柱說明一下主要說明的一些強度跟什麼好不好先說明一下就好就這樣你就問他好就這個嘛現在是這個嘛可以啦可以啦我可以回來我可以回來主席你做到這樣齁你真實下台來解散那要不要直接做兩排就好了今天是在解碼今天是在解碼好可以"},{"start":3259.748,"end":3261.01,"text":"因為上次是有人說這樣空氣不好"},{"start":3265.544,"end":3267.385,"text":"第一案是黃建斌有問題,他特別請我問一下說"},{"start":3284.011,"end":3289.933,"text":"國土署及所屬預算案內政部主管的沒宣費在114年編列800萬,較113年去年度的法定預算495萬,增加幅度到達61%。"},{"start":3305.136,"end":3324.542,"text":"這個增加的部分超過50%增加到61%所以我們會認為這樣有沒有腐爛編列預算的部分所以當時我們建兵委員是有說提議要減列200萬那我們是說你們先解釋一下好不好為什麼增加那麼多以上謝謝好感謝委員那其實我還沒叫你回答你就回答"},{"start":3325.822,"end":3347.61,"text":"請回答,請回答。感謝委員,因為其實我們這幾年,大概為了交通的部分,尤其是行人安全的部分,那其實外界的壓力很大,所以我們從今年開始有比較加強到各個學校去,那我們在年底會簽了全台灣有21所大學,"},{"start":3348.83,"end":3369.999,"text":"的集體的MOU那他們都希望我們協助來禁校園那所以我們明年開始會以拍片還有禁校園跟這些大學合作那希望能夠把這些宣傳能夠深入到大學生來降低大學生的一個車禍的一個比例所以這一點我們明年增加的部分最主要重點是放在這裡所以跟委員報告"},{"start":3376.858,"end":3404.351,"text":"署長對不起這個交通安全跟國土署有什麼關係?跟委員報告齁那個在市區道路的部分都是屬於國土署的那跟交通部應該比較有關聯吧?跟交通部比較有關聯吧?因為我們在做工程改善我們順道都要因為我們現在重點是所有的大學現在就是大學生的機車的比例齁其實出事的比例最高那所以我們一邊做改善一邊在"},{"start":3404.631,"end":3425.707,"text":"我覺得我雖然沒有提案但是我聽起來我是沒有辦法接受啦我會說提案委員是怎麼接受因為有很多的你們國土署的最重要的相關業務應該是在這個這個國土計畫上面還有一些規劃上面我覺得這不應該是是你們的業務啊你要宣傳這些東西這硬是有點莫名其妙"},{"start":3426.747,"end":3426.908,"text":"主席"},{"start":3461.437,"end":3475.745,"text":"我的建議若真有一件我們就先保留好不好?這個請問提案委員這有點怪今天跟委員報告因為國土署的業務真的很雜所以才會說我們是每年都會有一些重點項目要調"},{"start":3476.545,"end":3476.825,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3495.621,"end":3518.496,"text":"我想你指的是像我也支持高興文這個說法專心在右上那這部分嘛我是預計要三列兩百萬那剛才有說明的嘛對不對因為行人交通設施安全條例是我們屬的我覺得這條先保留"},{"start":3521.997,"end":3542.245,"text":"來,王委員主席,在這,我問署長,署長,在隔離期現在所作的,在百分之多的營業路,可以連行到您所作的,有的一定完成,有的最近這幾個月要完成的時候,您要如何,因為隔離的溝通,在我們警政署溝通的,公開是隔離的溝通,"},{"start":3551.243,"end":3554.466,"text":"不太好,你要怎麼去選擇?因為我覺得錢比較少,在我這樣騎摩托車去順勢,我覺得是做得很好。但是做得很好,要有那個成效,可以讓行人安全,騎車開,"},{"start":3572.705,"end":3573.125,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":3598.417,"end":3601.88,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":3619.416,"end":3643.018,"text":"交通安全就是一種這只是一個舉例而已而且是大家一聽就不會覺得說媒體宣傳好像是什麼為自己擦脂抹粉沒有是任何跟你相關的直接的細項如果有變動或需要被窒息其實就是利用這一條預算下去做執行那大家可以看到其實以交通規則繼續舉例的話不管是城市或鄉村"},{"start":3645.64,"end":3646.221,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3661.934,"end":3687.139,"text":"所以我是建議說各委員我們是不是也可以比如說我們做出一個決議然後看看是我們認為應該朝哪個方向要多哪個方向要少哪個方向怎麼做大家可以共同決議但是不要一次簡略到四分之一我是覺得這個比較多了一點那看看提案委員能不能夠參考一下因為鄉村城市等等大家都有需要知道更多的政策細節李委員"},{"start":3691.727,"end":3716.697,"text":"在這邊提醒一下其實署長你講的我覺得太過簡單了啦他有點忘記我們上個會期才剛通過行人交通安全設施條例這個部分是不是要大量的宣導他會牽涉到很多包括人行道上面的設施你不宣導人家怎麼知道這個地方要不要動那民眾怎麼來配合那怎麼會有行人設施安全的問題"},{"start":3718.927,"end":3733.255,"text":"這個不要忘記了這個是我們上會期才剛通過的所以也拜託啦拜託各位我們自己通過的行人交通安全設施條例那我們希望可以來宣導讓民眾可以更加的配合也是為了行人安全嘛以上那個黃婕瑋剛先的好不好來黃委員"},{"start":3742.396,"end":3742.597,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3757.276,"end":3774.302,"text":"你們在這個媒體宣傳的業務上面跟地方做了哪些溝通那以我的選區來說就是有一些很多是新的人行道然後有一些新的交通設施這些其實很重要是因為像是在做一些行人庇護島啊或者是你們在做轉角的在這種轉角擴大或者是說你們人行道的設計變更了"},{"start":3781.525,"end":3797.365,"text":"這其實都要讓地方知道說為什麼新的設計是比較安全的那一些特別的行人專區這些其實也都是在這上個會期通過的業務裡面那我覺得這都是溝通最重要的地方這也是讓大家知道說因為我們非常重視行人安全"},{"start":3798.166,"end":3811.904,"text":"所以才會通過這個條例那這個其實就應該要在這筆業務裡面如果是的話那是不是請署長跟大家說明你們會利用這筆預算來跟大家做什麼樣的社會溝通呢?謝謝來 高軍委員"},{"start":3815.456,"end":3824.879,"text":"我還是,雖然在場的委員有提出那麼多的看法,但是我還是要再說一遍,媒體政策和業務宣導費你今年編了800萬,113年的時候你只有編495萬,你高達了61%耶!"},{"start":3834.062,"end":3843.589,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":3860.512,"end":3865.821,"text":"清清楚楚明明白白,這樣子才能跟國人交代啊。好嗎?以上,謝謝。請回答。"},{"start":3873.078,"end":3901.978,"text":"我跟各位委員先說明一下第一個就是因為我們立法院有通過新的人行安全的部分這是一個延續性的計畫有關人行安全的部分的話行政跟立法單位還有各縣市地方政府都非常的重視各位的選區裡面譬如說你現在看到在學校的周邊或者是人行比較多的地方很多是屬於硬體改善設備的工程"},{"start":3902.638,"end":3911.762,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所"},{"start":3931.429,"end":3947.707,"text":"其他的單位告訴我們說那你們做了這些新的工程有些住車彎或是有些停住的部分到底是指什麼意思是不是也要一起來做溝通那所以我們再把這個預算加上去也就是有新增的政策出來的時候呢我們就要新增這個媒體的溝通或是社會的溝通"},{"start":3950.43,"end":3967.918,"text":"那委員如果擔心說我們未來是不是會有因人設事特別委託給特定的媒體的話我在這個地方跟大家保證只要是符合我們公共工程需要採購的部分的話我們一律是公開來執行沒有其他的特定的部分那詳細的細節我再請我們署長跟各位再解釋一下"},{"start":3973.536,"end":3995.927,"text":"來等一下那個所有人說一句我補充一句讓大家看看你是不是的欸 處長其實包括剛剛大家都在講交通政策其實住宅政策也是包含在這裡面嗎是對不對因為住宅政策比如說現在高齡化要協助這個我們的住宅要設置無障礙設施那協助我們的長者要能夠換去你換去有電梯的房子房子留給這個"},{"start":3996.988,"end":4011.973,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部"},{"start":4023.338,"end":4046.195,"text":"請你講再說我剛剛其實我一直想講你剛剛那個講你說這個讓人家聽起來感覺好像是交通政策在選不對啦你們應該講是你們是心思做的一些人行道一些什麼改善跟以前不一樣你要讓人知道如何去使用這些而不是教人家"},{"start":4047.276,"end":4050.198,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":4066.527,"end":4066.847,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":4082.709,"end":4091.117,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。"},{"start":4107.814,"end":4135.834,"text":"第三個就是說那其實國土署本身的業務真的非常的雜但是我們各自各樣在每一年的這個重點上都會有一些調整那我們接下來呢在不管是住宅、污水、下水道、再生水其實通通都有涉獵這一些的預算那所以這整個800萬是放在所有的項目裡面只是在明年新增的部分大概主要是針對交通設施安全的部分來特別做加強的一個宣傳"},{"start":4136.514,"end":4163.51,"text":"那最近其實我們有一個廣告也已經上線那我們是希望多多透過各式各樣的管道那我們也走進校園去主動去做溝通那也到各縣市政府去辦理輔導團跟相關的說明就是希望各縣市跟我們一起動起來能夠協助民眾更早習慣這一些交通安全設施的一個改善那真正能夠把這個交通的事故造勢率呢逐年降低所以說以上的報告"},{"start":4173.388,"end":4188.14,"text":"來,還有沒有委員?來,高軍委員。嗯,既然剛剛這樣講齁,剛剛那個國會聯絡人大概跟我談了一下啦,就是說113年度你們編了495萬嘛齁,我們可不可以知道你113年度495萬是花在哪裡?"},{"start":4196.144,"end":4199.729,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":4212.285,"end":4220.509,"text":"因為我們看不到西部啊而且呢我發現114年的這個預算裡面我們在很多部會的小細項裡面都看到媒體宣傳這一塊很顯然就是說我們的執政黨好像把很多的媒體宣傳費分散打在每一幕每一項裡面雖然看起來都不多可是整合起來就蠻大筆的一筆預算"},{"start":4238.118,"end":4253.485,"text":"所以我認為我們在內政委員會如果不請你們具體提出來的話我會覺得你的增加幅度是達61%耶如果按照卓院長講的這個不要浪費公帑我覺得這個實在是有一點"},{"start":4254.565,"end":4260.812,"text":"及所屬：立法院第11屆第2會期內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬：營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬：營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬：營建設基金。"},{"start":4272.691,"end":4280.242,"text":"好多喔!所以我建議這場的委員們大家可能要仔細看一下就是對於媒體宣傳的業務宣傳媒體政治的部分其實是在非常部會的小細項裡面"},{"start":4288.975,"end":4303.603,"text":"為什麼我們會看到總加起來是那麼大筆預算但是呢我們在各個委員會裡面分別來看的時候都是小數目但是實際上加起來真是一筆可觀的數目以上補充發言謝謝"},{"start":4308.098,"end":4312.999,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":4338.612,"end":4341.975,"text":"你拿這樣,跟你說要減一百?減不可以,這交通價這麼多單位說得這麼清楚是不是?你讓他凍結啦!因為說實在的,這...召委,真的安全問題再給法院知道算多少?"},{"start":4367.649,"end":4378.156,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4397.912,"end":4414.541,"text":"好,召委。來,召委。好,不要說了。不要再說了。不要再說了。不要再說了。不要再說了。"},{"start":4423.581,"end":4443.706,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4451.219,"end":4458.884,"text":"蘇英報告要同意之後才可以動之?剛剛我們協商就是說這一個就是我們凍結200萬蘇英報告後時可動之其實這個是文字遊戲這無所謂"},{"start":4473.84,"end":4479.022,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":4496.561,"end":4499.142,"text":"我剛有問阿沒有人要講話阿"},{"start":4529.659,"end":4544.463,"text":"我想這一次還是在針對這個水面飛趟大家比較多的疑慮了阿本市這邊是提要刪減預算的134萬2千了好 謝謝好 報告結啦好 因為好 報告結啦 因為是賣完還要"},{"start":4560.189,"end":4588.419,"text":"不一樣項目啦OK好我報告一下因為這幾年跟各位報告因為這幾年我們社宅開工的速度很快啦那那個公務所還有代辦的項目也變多所以我們公務所開立的增設的速度非常快我們光中工就多了三個南工多了六個那過去因為速度太快來不及相關的預算都是吃管理費啦可是吃管理費大概對同仁他們在外面"},{"start":4589.179,"end":4596.743,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。"},{"start":4614.551,"end":4639.183,"text":"所以跟委員報告最主要是增列這個部分那因為在外面租金也要幫忙分攤那水電費也要去做分攤所以看委員那另外當然就是因為臺電也都把我們的優惠都已經都取消所以我們現在都變成全部都要自付"},{"start":4643.74,"end":4653.851,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。"},{"start":4665.888,"end":4681.472,"text":"主任說明後,我相信當然您有您的人出席,但是我認為我們也是要國會政府要節省能源這塊,所以這份本席是可以減略為34萬2千,好不好?什麼啦?"},{"start":4681.472,"end":4691.094,"text":"凍結啦,好不好?參詳一下,這是不時消,因為我們沒有花到也不能,我們也是不能用啦。"},{"start":4693.976,"end":4719.58,"text":"我們是怕說又因為超過還是要回頭又吃那個管理費我們交報告好啦主席那個署長也說很清楚那個要凍結的好不好凍結多少?一半三十萬台幣才凍這樣好不好好不好"},{"start":4725.063,"end":4725.423,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":4758.942,"end":4776.175,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":4794.078,"end":4810.106,"text":"第4案的部分,其實基本上不管是在一般行政向下的業務費,或者是進到實際業務的討論,大家都對於社宅的分級收入的一個制度,其實大部分人都是非常關心的。"},{"start":4810.586,"end":4813.368,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4838.727,"end":4853.356,"text":"提出專案報告、金銅鑰匙的動資以上,謝謝來李委員我請教一下署長也請署長說明一下那剛針對國民黨委員劉許廷他幫徐欣穎委員的這一個發言就是說署長"},{"start":4866.468,"end":4892.467,"text":"署長明年度開始大家關心的這個分級收費是還有開始有多少住戶進去包含到底住三年住六年等等的這一些它是持續型的工作那現在我們好啦我們也同意明年度還會有專案報告那我相信這個專案報告也不是明年度的上個會期而已連預算會期還是大家持續關心的那你可不可以說明一下"},{"start":4894.609,"end":4921.342,"text":"從明年度開始預計完工預計要進入這個社會住宅預計要開始分級受惠等等的這些機制的狀況說明給委員會聽當然明年度我們還是會有這些狀況報告當然你如果說明的非常清楚的話我們也期待可以把凍結的這樣算起來這個凍結的部分已經20%了這個對於我們在做這些基本行政工作的工作人員"},{"start":4922.262,"end":4945.396,"text":"還有這些的士氣是有影響的,我們也可以降低這個凍結的層數,請署長可以盡量清楚的說明,謝謝。好,感謝委員,因為其實在我們租宅基金租宅的預算裡面,大概我想第一個租金補貼大概都清楚,我們在今年就已經可以往75萬戶的這個目標來邁進,那這裡面就佔了300億,"},{"start":4950.599,"end":4974.021,"text":"包租代管的部分主要是提供給業者的相關的服務費還有一些托管的費用所以這兩塊是大概隨著業務的成長都是很穩定直接興建設宅的部分在因為過去最早的做法是中央來提供非自償性的補助協助地方能夠蓋設宅地方主力來興建"},{"start":4975.362,"end":4994.08,"text":"後來在108年以後發現在地方政府的可能人力上有一些吃緊所以在109年才決定由住都中心這邊跟國土署合作來加入所以我們陸陸續續要完工會大量會從明年開始明年大概會有5000多戶完工後年會有7000多戶完工"},{"start":4995.001,"end":5015.457,"text":"所以接下來的這幾年會是中央信辦社宅大量完工的時間點當然委員所關心的後續的管理制度還有郵寄租金的分期制度跟委員報告管理制度的部分我們也有參採了相關輪候的概念都逐步融入到我們社宅的"},{"start":5017.158,"end":5041.849,"text":"的牌租裡面。第二個就是說分級制度我們跟地方政府都陸陸續續都已經有達成共識那在今年10月有開會地方政府普遍都支持那我們剩下跟衛福部最後的協調就可以把租金分級制來完成那所以我想專案報告的部分明年當然沒有問題我們也會跟委員清楚的交代那只是說像這個項目是不是因為行政業務行政工作是"},{"start":5042.99,"end":5054.981,"text":"我是建議是不要動在行政業務我們是統一動在後面的這個項目裡面因為行政業務會是比較吃緊的這個項目裡面所以這個報告看看好了 這樣說明我可以接受"},{"start":5056.069,"end":5074.435,"text":"好各位委員我們齁這一個啊齁因為我們這個委員不在我們照管理還是不處理啦齁那我們等一下像這一個的部分我們進去業務部分有相關的我們再處理好不好好來謝謝齁那我們現在進入第三幕國土管理業務"},{"start":5078.073,"end":5095.57,"text":"來,王委員主席,在第3幕裡面本席有24條跟29條在這裡我要跟署長說一下在國土設計當中的住宅政策"},{"start":5097.272,"end":5118.417,"text":"的幾位一百四億來賓,有在自己企業,我感覺新建的進度非常緩慢。現在兩個所在已經企業也在一百十五年要完成,要不然也要慢一點點。"},{"start":5120.492,"end":5147.982,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警"},{"start":5150.383,"end":5159.092,"text":"國土管理業務來賓,要為住宅政策及住宅計劃推動的獎勵來賓,有一個法律輔助來賓及單位的判律"},{"start":5170.915,"end":5191.404,"text":"諮詢。我感覺看不出來你到底做到多大位為這些人做出什麼,是不是待會申請一下,因為你跟我說不去調解代理訴訟這些項目,但是看過你的資料就是電話看你諮詢而已,是不是待會"},{"start":5195.936,"end":5196.878,"text":"說得很清楚,可以說是所屬的人的發揮最大的功能以上。"},{"start":5209.922,"end":5220.445,"text":"第7案、第9案、第8案、第10案、第11案、第12案、第13案、第14案、第18案、第19案、第21案、第25案、第30案、第31案、第34案、第35案、第36案"},{"start":5231.388,"end":5236.274,"text":"跟37並成一案。然後39、40、41、42、43、44、45、49案改組決議。二十案"},{"start":5252.361,"end":5272.676,"text":"非督土地使用辨定管制跟國土計劃土地使用管制研討業務跟講習的費用。這個你們大概是打算怎麼做?因為這個國土計劃法等等這些說明確實是有其必要啦。但是我看這個額度好像也不是很高。你們打算是怎麼做?是不是先做一個簡單的說明,讓我們了解一下狀況?好,謝謝。好來,蘇委員。"},{"start":5277.591,"end":5297.531,"text":"主席,我的案子是第28和第30。其實我還是一樣持續關心租屋市場的部分。我們認為租屋補貼、包租代管、實價登錄這些政策當然是已經開始有讓租屋市場的透明化是有點成效。"},{"start":5298.112,"end":5324.111,"text":"但是對於臺北市和新北市的引導就差很多低於其他直轄市甚至是低於全國平均但這才是最需要知道的地方那我們在質詢的時候其實也有問說那還有沒有其他可以檢討的空間你現在是胡蘿蔔有了那還有沒有其他呢這個其實我們都講過非常多次了所以我們是提出了這一項凍結案500萬元不過"},{"start":5327.193,"end":5349.529,"text":"我看這個國土署這邊也是很認真一直跟我們提出很多的說法那我們是不是建議是把這些說法都列為至少是書面報告讓我可以供未來的佐證那我們持續追蹤所以這個地方28案我是有同意改書面報告或使得動之"},{"start":5350.35,"end":5358.776,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":5372.705,"end":5380.478,"text":"拜託都還是把你們目前跟我們口頭報告的用書面報告記錄下來文字記錄大家好追蹤這樣兩個案子謝謝來還有沒有那個麥委員"},{"start":5390.148,"end":5406.259,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金�"},{"start":5417.697,"end":5426.44,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":5435.163,"end":5441.427,"text":"第十案內政部社會租宅需求調查的數據不精準不足,動了兩千萬。第十一案社會租宅不完善動了兩千萬。第十二案內政部在租宅法"},{"start":5462.98,"end":5482.616,"text":"規定社會住宅的收費原則這個部分也是沒有統一所以也影響也不公平這個部分我也動了兩千萬還有就是租金統計資訊專區這個部分也是資訊減弱所以也導致這樣子的一個資訊不足所以我也動了兩千萬還有就是第14案"},{"start":5492.824,"end":5509.408,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":5519.206,"end":5542.634,"text":"所以跟你說明一下因為這個是我是跟國土署的同仁一起來去協商的但是我現在看到我的資料怎麼全部都改組決議剛才他們的主任來跟我說明說因為我們討論的結果他拿來給我簽的是建議"},{"start":5544.249,"end":5567.656,"text":"我請教一下我們學商來跟我們辦公室討論的結果你應該拿結果來給我簽啊怎麼會拿說你的建議來給我簽我們相信的是你拿來的是我們討論後的結果我們才要簽嘛但是我看到的是怎麼是說他剛才跟我解釋說他拿來的是建議給我簽怎麼會建議給我這樣我們討論幹嘛的啊所以說這個部分我堅持以上報告謝謝"},{"start":5573.929,"end":5600.263,"text":"那你們要說清楚我們手頭上的資料是有,你們要跟委員說清楚?說不清,因為他來跟我協商的時候我已經跟他說我堅持要動,就是全部全部414億6千多萬,我全部這個案的話,我全部我就跟他討論每一個案我是凍結10%的"},{"start":5601.644,"end":5602.344,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5619.994,"end":5628.416,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":5651.138,"end":5675.79,"text":"好謝謝主席那我幫我們徐宇貞委員請教這個第26案有關於這個國土署在114年度預算案國土管理業務旗下這個社會住宅政策及住宅計畫之推動編列獎補助費就是有關特種基金補助400億的部分主要就是社會住宅的興建數"},{"start":5676.79,"end":5682.555,"text":"那從113年的9月30號的社會住宅的達成數現在的社會住宅才6208戶新完工是25857戶新建中是44957戶待絕標開工數是32574戶規劃中是13387戶顧名思義就是說過去政府這個2016年執政以來只有蓋好兩萬"},{"start":5705.333,"end":5722.338,"text":"三萬兩千戶的社會住宅還有九萬多戶的社宅沒有辦法讓人民來使用進度嚴重落後所以我們這個這個宇貞委員有提議要凍結五千萬希望說國土署在三個月內來提出檢討的專案報告"},{"start":5723.999,"end":5728.24,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府主管作業基金．營建基金。"},{"start":5748.035,"end":5748.235,"text":"來,林委員"},{"start":5779.079,"end":5783.185,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":5794.419,"end":5816.293,"text":"國土管理業務裏面的波普住宅基金、西曼社會住宅相關經費本期的主張是要凍結1%然後經專案報告同意後使得凍資原因是這樣當然就是因為大家普遍關注社會住宅推動業務除了剛剛我講的建設進度之外就是租金分級原則到底身分別、市價打折這件事情到底推動到什麼樣的程度那其實我私底下了解當然國土署"},{"start":5816.693,"end":5832.923,"text":"在經過努力開會之後是有一定的進度沒有錯但我想這樣子的一個進度是需要在立法院做一個清楚而且完整的說明並且接受立法委員的質詢提問讓這個政策更真完備啦所以說這部分我是覺得還是要有所處理所以這一條本期是比較堅持啦"},{"start":5833.843,"end":5854.748,"text":"四百億元一趴雖然很大了但它其實只是一趴而且只是凍結我們並沒有講說要減劣因為我們不會去為難社會住宅的預算跟基金這一點我也希望內政部放心但無論如何這個專案報告是非做不可所以我是覺得這一部分我們要特別來做個處理因為其實大部分委員針對這一條其實都有提案這一部分是不是可以優先來做一個處理其他部分我們再來統一來處理以上來那個吳委員"},{"start":5861.04,"end":5880.495,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、"},{"start":5882.768,"end":5905.403,"text":"這針對我們的災禍危險建築物的緊急評估系統透過登錄通報案件並有線上回報的評估結果的功能所以現在只有台北市跟新北市基隆運用處系統其他各縣市還沒有普及化這針對我們是地層帶"},{"start":5908.665,"end":5912.728,"text":"這個地方,所以我本席在這邊凍結兩百萬。來,王委員主席,在這裡我還要補充一下剛才的租金補貼的問題。在這時候我也提起說,你們現在叫村里長去證明說這個人有住在這裡。"},{"start":5934.619,"end":5956.574,"text":"立法院總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業"},{"start":5965.66,"end":5968.142,"text":"還有沒有委員?還有理委?"},{"start":5992.15,"end":5999.358,"text":"一樣是針對這個住宅租金補貼的這一部分我這邊提出一個問題"},{"start":6000.99,"end":6016.673,"text":"如果凍結,比如說1%感覺很少,但是4億那對來申請的人,申請租金補貼的人來講他是申請整年度,他的合約可能是一年度來的那會不會我們專案報告會來不及來處理,比如說這樣會因為少了4億"},{"start":6024.815,"end":6034.926,"text":"沒有辦法沒有辦法支應的話那這4億會不會造成我們跟地方政府授權的部分讓民眾來申請這個租金補貼可能會因為礙於這4億我們還沒有這個專案報告的時候可能民眾沒有辦法申請到"},{"start":6041.412,"end":6057.298,"text":"例如說他可能是原本要地方政府通常可能是5月31以前或6月31以前那地方政府可能會提早收件或者是往後延那會趕不上我們需要租金補貼的市民"},{"start":6060.731,"end":6083.686,"text":"跟地方政府的這個跟他的房東之間的合約會有來不及的現象所以在這邊如果有這個問題的話我們也希望可以降低凍結的這個大家很關心這個政策所以必須要做專案報告這個我們同意但是降低凍結的這個比例來講的話最不會影響到所有人要申請租金補貼的這個"},{"start":6087.17,"end":6092.697,"text":"跟地方政府的時程。署長可以做一個清楚的說明。好,還有"},{"start":6098.291,"end":6114.224,"text":"我補充這個是涉宅的經費啦涉宅啦不是租補吧對不對我如果對剛剛那個411%了啦那個是涉宅的不是租補的我補充一下啦所以應該相對來講還好但沒關係我們可以商量著辦那另外是主席你還是要這一幕來一起處理嗎那我就要把剩下講完嗎"},{"start":6114.864,"end":6120.106,"text":"三十八案還蠻有趣的是一個案例每年我們都有辦理這個建築許可等等傑出建築師都有一個評選然後都有一個獎盃這雖然額度很小但是我覺得內容還蠻奇怪的就是說在"},{"start":6143.803,"end":6156.666,"text":"一段時間以前85年民國85年的時候就訂定用這個知名的雕塑家楊英峰設計的獎盃那這一座獎盃是10萬塊錢但是10萬塊錢我們去了解一下基本上大部分好像都是"},{"start":6158.052,"end":6173.598,"text":"就是它的內容我是覺得有很多重複的一個字語啊比如說脫蠟鑄造講座開模銅料手工技術就要七萬兩千五啊然後盒子跟運送費用要五千五這個我覺得倒還好但"},{"start":6174.922,"end":6198.785,"text":"問題就是說一座獎盃要10萬塊然後我們之前問的時候大部分還講說說大部分是因為是著作權所以我要付授權費用可是你在細目裡面你也沒有寫說我要付多少的授權費用而且一顆獎盃10萬塊如果他講說他有些貴金屬或什麼的話來講那也就算了但是如果只是因為這樣的關係是不是有一些節省的方式那當然我們尊重雕刻大師"},{"start":6199.426,"end":6200.887,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":6225.609,"end":6237.084,"text":"然後你又講有著作非用 這樣是蠻奇怪的一件事雖然額度不大 但我們還是希望可以提供一些的這個說明然後看第三幕還有這一幕真的很大"},{"start":6239.163,"end":6262.866,"text":"這個47案這個城鎮風暴跟創生環境的營造計畫這個部分我們希望了解一下相關的一些細節因為我想這跟地方很多的建設是有關係的我們想請國土署說明的部分是這個城鎮風暴跟創生環境的營造計畫是不是只要跟社區地方的認同提升有關相關的一些案例都可以來做這些經費的一些申請還是說它有哪一些若干的一些條件"},{"start":6263.326,"end":6275.666,"text":"好 這一部分我們希望得到國土署清楚的說明所以希望是用書面報告的方式來做處理那國土署待會有機會的話也可以來私底下跟本席來做說明好 第三幕大概就這些辛苦主席了 謝謝"},{"start":6281.259,"end":6306.645,"text":"我們請署長回答那我就逐個委員的部分大概做說明啦剛剛王美王委員的部分嘉義市的這一個三個社宅大概西區的兩個會在115年陸陸續續完工那東區的中寮好市是117年他現在在設計跟遣招的階段大概117年會完工那至於另外一個就是說"},{"start":6307.405,"end":6333.401,"text":"我們要村里長證明不是證明那個人是證明那一間房子這個這間房子這個主計是不是屬實啦尤其一間房子因為我們過去會看到有些是那個地址有但是事實上那個房子可能是他分割了分割了沒有那一間所以主要是要證明這不是要證明那個人啦我這樣你中間又過位是是我剛才說明那是證明那間房子"},{"start":6342.212,"end":6351.725,"text":"所以我們延伸過來就是張志永、張偉人所提到就是說在過去所調查出來那所謂一億兩千多萬那個是億領也就是說"},{"start":6352.305,"end":6369.385,"text":"在租補的過程當中他可能因為所得的提高或是身份的轉換他變成不合那我們電腦構計會對出來那有一些其實也有不少部分是申請人主動來詢問說我這樣是不是身份不行了那我們主動通知他說那你這個會有議領要把議領費"},{"start":6370.806,"end":6393.146,"text":"檢回來,所以這個部分是準,但是炸零的部分到目前為止大概是接近200件,大概是200件,那我們大概在目前已經處理了大概160幾件,那現在還有30幾件還在查核當中,就是確認他的身份,是不是確定這樣他是不是屬於炸零,那這只要有都是移送移送這個地檢署地檢署去"},{"start":6399.114,"end":6421.004,"text":"好謝謝主席喔因為剛剛署長有回應所以署長您的意思是說乍領的部分是只有200多件那些都已經送那個只要查證清楚全部都是送地檢署送地檢署對那你講那個是義領就是他的身份改變或是所得對那義領的部分又有1.2億了嘛所以現在您的意思是說國土署這邊已經那都會追繳回來已經追繳那未來怎麼防止他再發生"},{"start":6421.804,"end":6438.234,"text":"因為它是過程當中發生的所以我們會透過電腦的資料勾結去比對它的狀況是不是有改變了所以比如說每年的五月五月就是報稅的時候嘛那大致上在報稅的狀況也看得出來它的部分所以報稅後我們還會再做一個比對"},{"start":6440.515,"end":6441.755,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":6465.481,"end":6467.842,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6488.087,"end":6506.074,"text":"這部分我們有主動提供法律輔助,當然是由我們地政司會來主動提供法律輔助的協助,那這部分都有在也補助,也就是說地方如果有反應上來,我們也會通知這個屋主,呃,城租戶來進行相關的法律輔助,這個部分有持續在進行。"},{"start":6511.189,"end":6527.925,"text":"主要是剩下當然我們未來的宣傳,要夠盡量宣傳,說你如果遇到這個不公平的對待的時候,大家要主動。那當然我們這個還會再跟地方加強宣導,就是說只要有成都人提出這些問題,那我們就做這樣的一個說明。"},{"start":6530.881,"end":6554.962,"text":"好那牛尾的部分比較差那個區域計畫的部分區域計畫的部分它是最主要是我們要銜接國路計畫所以有一些區域計畫舊有的這個業務它怎麼轉到在國路計畫後怎麼執行這個部分都還持續跟地方開座談會因為尤其在地用那一塊規則比較雜所以都還要持續開所以這是每年都固定一定要開"},{"start":6557.765,"end":6581.945,"text":"到目前來講是還夠就是持續開然後持續跟他們宣導一些觀念那這樣我們希望未來還是可以無縫接軌一些項目那城鄉問貿的部分其實他過去都延續在說協助地方的這個環境總顧問他任務有兩個一個第一個協助地方尤其是鄉鎮公所的提案內容希望他們提出來的內容能夠符合"},{"start":6583.326,"end":6611.245,"text":"內政部的這邊的一個要求這是一個。第二個就是說輔導地方尤其有一些因為走地方創生或社區他有需要一些社區規劃師他希望能夠輔助起來那這些也會在環境總顧問檢管總顧問裡面的工作項目那總之就是希望能夠協助地方不管是鄉鎮公所的提案或是社區要發展自己的一些小型的一個規劃跟建設案的話他們都能夠提供一些建議我想這是在這個部分"},{"start":6612.185,"end":6628.323,"text":"那的確那個獎項的部分這個是因為過去從85年大概就已經陸陸續續都延續這樣的一個做法那當然這幾年是因為這個疫情以後有一些工項還有一些授權費用都有陸陸續續調高但是我想委員提的這個建議"},{"start":6629.504,"end":6632.467,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":6652.387,"end":6669.386,"text":"就說不要去凍結它,但是我們來交書面報告或什麼樣的方式,我們來協助做這件事,因為的確這個還要跟公司那邊還要再溝通,雖然金額不大,但我想委員有關心我們就會去做一些相關的溝通,看能不能有再精進的一個做法。"},{"start":6670.427,"end":6683.396,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":6697.605,"end":6724.591,"text":"所得志的這部分也有參採地方政府的部分的一個建議有變成市級那身份別的部分也尊重地方他能夠統一納入所以在這個部分我們都在這個部分其實會越來越穩定那在社宅的這一個非自強性補助的部分我都也建議對地方來講非自強性補助是一個很重要的項目因為他們願意多花一些錢來興建社宅"},{"start":6725.211,"end":6728.813,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":6743.843,"end":6772.683,"text":"在整個社宅的進度來講我們明年就會有大量的完工開始大量明年有5000多後年有7000多大概在後面會甚至有到1萬多的這樣每年的完工數那這些都會讓我們社宅的一個完工的數量大幅的邁進那當然我們也會積極協助地方政府在社宅的興建上能夠得到中央比較好的這個資源那能夠協助他們把社宅順利的興建完成跟營運讓我大概多做這樣的一個補充"},{"start":6787.885,"end":6805.672,"text":"的確啦我們的那個公益大廈的管理上其實這一塊委員也一直認為說我們在後面的這個出產品還有一些補助的一個查證上那這個的確因為我們都其實看地方政府的量能跟執行"},{"start":6818.321,"end":6825.043,"text":"對,所以我跟委員報告,因為其實你也知道地方建管不是很好做,這大概都是地方的建管、建辦"},{"start":6829.781,"end":6851.189,"text":"是 這個我跟委員報告我一定會再加強宣導因為我們明年開始整個的那個六樓以上都是屬於這個強制要報的喂 你要全國性 你要建制完成你才有辦法去掌握啊"},{"start":6852.342,"end":6858.786,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":6881.698,"end":6904.587,"text":"既然說掌握我們的主管單位,你一定要去確實掌握全國的任何的災情。這建國真的是非常重要。是。好,謝謝。好,這部分我也跟委員承諾我們會再加強宣傳,尤其這些新來的這個同仁,我們會列為首波,宣導了一個重點,教育訓練的重點。"},{"start":6906.94,"end":6908.922,"text":"還有沒有委員的問題沒回答到?"},{"start":6923.026,"end":6936.177,"text":"來黃委員在第三幕裡面我是提到第三次案就是我們這個國土管理業務裡面的這個建築許可建築師輔導及公寓大廈等工作業務管理費裡面的五萬塊那這個部分本席是提凍結凍結起來"},{"start":6938.078,"end":6949.305,"text":"因為我們最近地震發生很多,04、03之後其實整個餘震不斷那其實我們在審計室在114年也提到說像桃園、台南、苗栗、雲林、花蓮、台東、連江7個縣市這個平均能源在114年的動源的演練率不到5成"},{"start":6955.629,"end":6955.99,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":6973.789,"end":6973.969,"text":"來 請回答"},{"start":6992.338,"end":7019.918,"text":"因為最主要是我們現在都改線上系統所以就是說我們的花比較多錢在系統建設上但是要他們來申報當然就像剛剛所講就有些承辦人可能新來或是剛轉換他不曉得去做這些但是我們後來有查核他的書面申報就他都有報到他都有來所以這一點我們還是會持續加強也感謝委員的建議還有沒有委員的問題沒有回答到"},{"start":7021.209,"end":7023.306,"text":"沒有齁?那我們協商一下"},{"start":7355.453,"end":7365.359,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":7385.251,"end":7410.359,"text":"啊?為什麼?等我一下,我宣告完啦!我還沒宣告完,你沒得講!賣玉珍委員的權利你都不顧喔!包括賣玉珍委員的他改組決議的部分,我們也是都一起併案處理。好,那大家要休息是不是?好,那休息10分鐘好不好?"},{"start":8348.888,"end":8372.37,"text":"好,那我們繼續開會我們現在第四幕好第四幕齁,那個提案委員不在齁那我們就循慣例不宜處理那我們來第七幕阿來,麥委員"},{"start":8374.963,"end":8379.95,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分。"},{"start":8392.807,"end":8398.511,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":8420.752,"end":8422.413,"text":"我們先宣告一下第54、55、56、57案改組決議來那個黃委員"},{"start":8429.497,"end":8453.587,"text":"好那我講一下我跟美惠委員我是64他是65但是內容是差不多的因為我們都認為說現在人行道的普及率其實都還不夠高包括美惠在嘉義市那我自己在高雄的市區其實都有非常大的需求都是非常多行人的地方尤其是像在我的選區有很多是商業區然後商圈"},{"start":8454.087,"end":8466.501,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、"},{"start":8475.29,"end":8492.902,"text":"好謝謝主席那我有我幫那個提案仁旭政委員請教第59案就是這個有關於都市基礎工程業務生活圈道路交通系統這個建設計畫的部分那個資訊服務費在114年的時候編列3627萬叫上去年度113年的1766萬增加了1861萬增幅高達100%增加了一倍"},{"start":8505.69,"end":8511.654,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金．營建設基金．"},{"start":8526.527,"end":8550.592,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、"},{"start":8558.379,"end":8573.765,"text":"在第7部份我是在提58案這部分就是關於我們這個國土署補助各縣市政府辦理這個校園周邊機行車安全道路改善計劃那在這一塊裡面因為部分的縣市性申請解除的地點"},{"start":8574.925,"end":8601.133,"text":"還是有一些交通事故跟傷害人數在持續增加所以本席這邊是凍結該預算的十分之一那不過經過討論之後因為考量我們整個執行的預算的執行是為了提升我們國人這個生活圈道路安全那也想要督促我們這個國土署辦理校園周邊還有行車安全道路改善的成效那這邊提出原本提出的這個凍結十分之一改為凍結兩百萬那也現在提出"},{"start":8602.214,"end":8608.566,"text":"希望我們提出這個降低校園周邊那個高風險路段的這個維安因子的順便報告書之後開始動之以上李委員"},{"start":8613.633,"end":8637.668,"text":"來我針對這個都市基礎工程生活圈道路在上上週劉士端部長來到高雄針對新台17線那目前第三段南段的第三階段目前國土署給予這個建造給予設計費用但是對於工程費用還沒有給但第三段因為牽涉到有挖到遺跡"},{"start":8638.829,"end":8661.816,"text":"有挖到遺跡的部分我們必須要墊高來處理所以跟高雄市政府提出來跟原本國土署給的這個經費預算可能會有一些落差所以在這邊也除了對預算表達支持那以外呢也希望國土署盡速跟高雄市政府來做這個預算落差的這個協處讓南段第三段跟第二段可以同步來開工來謝謝"},{"start":8672.527,"end":8675.818,"text":"還有沒有委員?沒有委員的話請先回答。"},{"start":8678.73,"end":8707.589,"text":"感謝各位委員的一些指正那其實永續的部分其實的確現在能夠努力在進行的都有督促各縣市政府在加速提案那當然我們都希望每年至少有一趴的成長但事實上各縣市政府現在的增量來講可能都會遇到有其樓的問題或是有一些阻礙物他需要長一點時間去溝通所以看起來進度會稍微緩慢對於是我們一直講開始進入到技術性上"},{"start":8708.45,"end":8731.02,"text":"比較難處理的這個部分但是我們還是會持續的強化跟地方的溝通那其實這也是透過經費的這個補助協助來地方那這裡面就會牽涉到我們在因為主改以後我們的相關的資運系統都必須要因為因為我們變一個獨立機關那各分水是獨立機關那系統上都要做一些改版"},{"start":8731.6,"end":8749.964,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、"},{"start":8759.766,"end":8773.777,"text":"專家學者來做一些研究。希望這些部分能夠逐步來提升我們以後道路的相關的品質。至於在高雄的這個部分,我想我們一定會跟市府這邊"},{"start":8774.737,"end":8797.842,"text":"持續來溝通因為它畢竟在過程當中遇到移植的問題要重新調整那這部分我們在設計階段就會跟他們進行溝通來確認他們可以未來的預算的項目這邊我們會來進行那所以我們在這過程當中的一些費用基本上都是核實來進行也希望各位能夠支持把我們的這個凍結的數量能夠少一點就這樣報告"},{"start":8805.063,"end":8806.369,"text":"好,那我們協商一下好不好。"},{"start":8963.188,"end":8984.448,"text":"各位委員那我們第七幕啊齁我們整幕凍結一千萬那所有委員的提案併案處理然後呢經書面報告後時可動之要經同意啊經書面報告同意後時可動之書面報告後"},{"start":8995.989,"end":8997.25,"text":"第8目第77、78、79、80、81、82"},{"start":9019.264,"end":9020.986,"text":"八、三都改組決議只剩76案。"},{"start":9031.447,"end":9032.328,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":9058.399,"end":9061.122,"text":"主決議85、86、87、88、89案修正文字通過。84案照案通過。"},{"start":9083.452,"end":9111.415,"text":"85到89案就是我的提案那主要是針對包含國土管理業務、國土管理、國土計劃法的這些說明要必須清除落實還有86案的這個永續提升人行安全計劃這個也要確實務必讓落實跟地方政府做好相關的這些配套以及落實這些行人的安全的部分的這些工程"},{"start":9112.035,"end":9128.081,"text":"另外,代替張雅琳委員提案的部分,就是針對住都中心有一些空間的部分來提出一些建議,包含兒童遊戲場,包含這些托兒育兒等空間。以上,同意這些文字修正跟處決議。謝謝。"},{"start":9132.029,"end":9154.37,"text":"蔡主席,我是有提77案第8目,希望改組結議,但是希望說有書面報告關於現在的排水系統不足,導致很多地方的淹水,所以這個部分我有邀請提出書面報告給我。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":9158.766,"end":9180.914,"text":"好,那這樣好,謝謝。那我們現在開始來處理這個國土署他們的基金預算來,我們先來處理營建建設基金預算業務收入委員無提案然後業務成本與費用也沒有那我們直接進入住宅基金來,各位委員"},{"start":9185.984,"end":9187.866,"text":"第三案、第四案、第六案改組決議"},{"start":9194.284,"end":9204.511,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、"},{"start":9223.484,"end":9240.321,"text":"第一個是現在設宅包租代管的計畫裡面包租跟代管的計畫的目標互數目標都是定50%對不對但因為包租一直都缺乏足夠的誘因但其實我覺得包租才是比較有效可以讓讓不管你的這個相關的這個住宅供給量增加比較好的一個方法那這個為了"},{"start":9243.227,"end":9268.792,"text":"這個地方上的一些觀察是這樣為了符合這個政策的KPI就我們剛剛講的50%的這樣一個標準然後包租跟貸款的經費還可以進為流用然後其實計畫實際上在執行的時候其實貸款的數量是比包租多很多那我覺得這確實是一個問題那對計畫目標當中的這個維持租客關係穩定其實是有所減損的要盡快來做平衡所以我們來做這個部分我們是有提說要做個凍結並且經過專案報告"},{"start":9270.472,"end":9295.987,"text":"那其實專案報告大家剛剛都已經講過了嘛就是併在這個社會住宅配套政策的一個專案報告裡面來做處理那我們就把每一案每一案的這些狀況先講我們先聽這個國土署相關的一些回應之後這個凍結的金額大家再來做討論那第五案一樣這個是分級收費原則剛剛講過了我們節省大家時間我們就不再贅述一樣我們需要更多的一個清楚的一個說明第七案裡面這個就是"},{"start":9297.088,"end":9325.51,"text":"租金補貼的部分租金補貼的推動一定要搭配這個市場透明化要不然這個花這麼多錢如果只是補貼選民的話那我認為成效是不夠的所以說相關的這個黑市的改善計畫報告在哪邊這個我們會希望看到具體的期程租金補貼的物件什麼時候我講因為你平常先從區塊性來做但終有一天大家要全數納入我們都希望這個市場趕快的正常化"},{"start":9326.19,"end":9355.47,"text":"所以說什麼時候然後如何讓他全數可以納入所謂的租金資訊統計專區還有物件形態就是到底因為這個實際上我們在溝通的事情很清楚嘛有的是華夏對不對有的是公寓有的是套房有的是雅房這部分怎麼來做精進這部分我們也希望可以看到這個內政部做一個具體的清楚的說明包含時間表在內的一個說明所以這部分我們也希望要有專案報告跟跟這個跟這個部分的預算的凍結來做處理第八案的部分"},{"start":9357.851,"end":9370.581,"text":"租金補貼模式已考量弱勢家庭,但擴大協助部分會否跑到非住宅用途?或未能達到居住品質?"},{"start":9383.066,"end":9408.211,"text":"第9案的部分則是在講說這個租金補貼合約期間這個補貼者如果有出現比如說生故或者說他購置房屋也就是說他的狀態改變那你的這個審查的機制是什麼你有沒有辦法及時來做審查去避免有易領的一個狀況這部分也要來做說明所以要盡速清理然後有沒有易發款項的部分這部分本席也是非常關心的"},{"start":9409.231,"end":9428.525,"text":"11案是剛剛講過了跟第一案意思是一樣的包租貸款的留用的問題這部分也希望做個說明然後12案12案我覺得需要特別講一下這是上一次質詢的時候有講這個所謂的這個青年安心成家的優惠貸款利息他放在住宅基金裡面我們那個科目是有問題的"},{"start":9430.226,"end":9455.655,"text":"當然雖然馬上明年就要落日了上次署長也有清楚說明但是我是覺得未來有相關或是類似的這樣一個狀況的時候不可以再變在住宅基金裡面不要讓這樣子的一個支出去排擠到住宅基金住宅基金要好好來做社會住宅也好租金補貼也好這種可以真正把有需要的人去落實居住正義的工作我不要被這種貸款還變相造成房價上漲的部分來做提升這案部分本期是可以改組決議12案的部分可以改"},{"start":9456.355,"end":9483.351,"text":"10案跟13案可以並按一起改組決議。就是說這個要求這個115年以後這個要另詢正當預算單位跟科目不得在編列在住宅基金以內以上做出一些說明我覺得這個專報跟涉宅的又不太一樣是不是也租、租樸跟透明化部分也要另外來做專報啦這我們商量一下好不好以上謝謝我們等一下一起說啦好不好韓文委員好 那 那說明一下"},{"start":9485.607,"end":9508.446,"text":"主席跟委員謝謝委員的垂詢那我想我們針對整個租金市場的部分包括包租代管的增加我們最近公布的那個相關的空屋之後那我們也在跟許多的團體在包租代管團體在這邊溝通我們希望說將這些空屋能夠進取作為包租的一些業務所以我們一方面在量的上面"},{"start":9508.626,"end":9513.228,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分"},{"start":9524.834,"end":9542.991,"text":"大學周邊以及各地區的相關的租金我們利用我們的租金補貼的資訊我們已經做了一定程度的公布包括一些物件的狀態我們也做了一些公布那未來我們當然會持續跟各個團體做溝通那繼續相關的整個租金透明化的一個政策那接下來我們也會在後續的"},{"start":9545.413,"end":9552.804,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":9561.357,"end":9578.087,"text":"那些狀況有改變的人我們也會透過相關的資訊的追蹤那讓他們能夠知道說自己身份的狀況的改變那可能就不克領取這些租金的部分大概以上也就是說在未來我們的相關的租金的政策的說明上面我們會再做完整的一些報告那我們協商一下好不好"},{"start":9686.908,"end":9692.834,"text":"住宅基金的部分,我們就全部凍結9900萬,然後這個要專案報告,厚實可動之。我們這一個"},{"start":9702.048,"end":9730.283,"text":"租屋補貼政策與租屋市場透明化專報我們就是跟剛剛的社會住宅我們就是兩個中央報告我們一起排好不好我們兩個中央報告一起排那我們再補宣大概十二十三案改組決議那我們繼續下來都更基金中央都更基金"},{"start":9731.56,"end":9743.663,"text":"已經全部改組決議了14、15、16、17已經全部改組決議了那我們就不處理來那我們來組決議主決議212223212324案修正文字通過19、22、22漁軍詐案通過"},{"start":9760.717,"end":9763.498,"text":"那18案說明一下好,那發問委員那針對那個相關的提案我們會在6個月內向內政委會做出說明我們做一些相關的涉財的政策的評估好,18案照案通過"},{"start":9796.585,"end":9803.51,"text":"國土永續基金基金來源吳委員相關提案基金用途"},{"start":9806.673,"end":9835.026,"text":"一、二改組決議也都改組決議了一、二案改組決議第三案組決議我們文字修正通過好那這樣子好謝謝所以我們這個國土署的都處理好了好那各位委員那我們現在下來我們是不是先來審移民署的"},{"start":9837.177,"end":9865.458,"text":"審移民署好不好來 稅出部分好 那個審完的部分我們國土署的相關的有要相關的繼續留下沒有的我們就先回去了好不好可以啦 讓他們先回去了"},{"start":9888.971,"end":9910.428,"text":"好來公委員這個移民署的有拿到了嗎好那我們開始第一項說出部分一般行政第二案已經改組決議了那第一案說明一下"},{"start":9916.398,"end":9937.674,"text":"主席跟各位委員報告有關新住民事務中央三級機關的籌備30秒那我們現在已經設置了籌備作業小組也定期召開會議那由本部的吳長士擔任主席那有關工作小組由本人來召集那新機關的組織"},{"start":9939.275,"end":9958.473,"text":"架構方面我們也初步也做一些主設的規劃也盤點新機關相關的業務也召開跨部會的會議來盤點有哪些業務是新增有哪些是要移播那另外也自播廣播節目新住民新力量在10月18號來開播"},{"start":9959.754,"end":9984.292,"text":"那最後就是有關新機關的組織法規還有我們涉及到我們移民署的組織法還有部的組織法我們會在下會期來提出草案報告完畢好那我改組決議啦好來我們第二幕第二幕齁"},{"start":9987.342,"end":9994.625,"text":"來我先我先宣告一下吼第12案測案吼第4、第6、第16、第18、19、22、24、25、28、29、32、34、35、36、40、49、50、51、52、54改組決議好來各位委員好麥委員"},{"start":10009.821,"end":10013.885,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":10030.763,"end":10032.626,"text":"沒有應變的機制不足。希望這個部分的話要提出就是即時的效應其他14、18、19這個部分的話還有"},{"start":10046.943,"end":10056.569,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":10066.596,"end":10081.548,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金�"},{"start":10095.72,"end":10104.091,"text":"就比較沒有達成說我們的要這個費用的用意以上 謝謝好 還有沒有委員還沒有委員 沒有齁 那說明一下"},{"start":10110.538,"end":10126.71,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":10137.998,"end":10160.973,"text":"叫這個119馬上來送1發生這個事情我們也覺得很遺憾但後續我們會來加強這方面的一些管控跟照顧至於委員剛剛所要求有果關基金的這個使用的部分我們就照委員的這個提示那盡量的"},{"start":10161.753,"end":10177.902,"text":"讓這個NGO團體他們來使用,同時我們也會做一些加強教育訓練,來提醒他們怎麼樣來申請這個基金,怎麼樣來做核銷,這些我們會繼續持續來辦理。好,來,蔣委員。"},{"start":10189.008,"end":10216.566,"text":"好 謝謝主席我幫徐新穎委員請問一下我們移民署第9案就是這個移民署預算案第2幕有個入出國籍移民管理業務就是要貫徹有關執行入出國籍移民政策編列預算2億左右的金額那當然我們現在都清楚移民署有修正這個出國籍移民法在今年3月有上路就是說針對預期停留或拘留"},{"start":10217.988,"end":10221.259,"text":"的行政罰款從原本2000塊增加到1萬塊提高了5倍"},{"start":10225.131,"end":10237.298,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。"},{"start":10249.045,"end":10250.808,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":10272.09,"end":10296.699,"text":"針對第二目第五案就是我們的失聯移工人數的逐年上升因為我們都只能增加那本期在這邊凍結了500萬就是我們要如何來做解決才能遏止我們這失聯的移工不要再一直上升是不是請等一下我們署長來做說明"},{"start":10298.2,"end":10302.244,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10316.949,"end":10335.82,"text":"沒有委員的話,署長說明。主席、各位委員。有關委員剛剛催省有關提高滑船會讓很多移工無力繳滑船。這個部分跟委員報告。移工失聯的這個問題因為涉及最主要到勞動政策的一個規劃。"},{"start":10338.001,"end":10363.576,"text":"事實上我們修法也不是針對移工來提高是整體對於預期的外來人口的一個加強管理移工失源最主要是涉及勞動力市場的需求勞動條件、僱主跟仲介管理等等面向我們移民署也事實上也"},{"start":10364.616,"end":10375.285,"text":"從查處的這個經驗裡面也提供這些改善的一些建議給勞動部那希望勞動部他能夠召集相關的目的失業主管機關來開會研議因為這個事實上失業移工的問題"},{"start":10379.648,"end":10408.709,"text":"除了下游的查處移民署跟協同國安機關的這個查處以外最主要就是源頭的部分能夠從政策面要做一些改善要不的話移民署其實我們一年查處的試驗移工都超過2萬人如果再加上預期的話大概都達到3萬多將近4萬人其實是這個查處的這個人數是非常多那不能單靠移民署"},{"start":10409.349,"end":10425.224,"text":"的這個查處就能夠完全解決這個問題一定要跨部會來合作所以這個部分事實上也不是說加重划緩然後就導致增加這樣子的話我想這個是並沒有說一個"},{"start":10426.585,"end":10444.075,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作"},{"start":10455.942,"end":10475.189,"text":"一到九月份已經是比去年是少6000人那這個部分是跟各位委員報告了那有關吳啓明委員剛剛提到的這個新住民數位資訊醫網的這個部分那這個計劃最主要是要提升這個新住民的"},{"start":10476.569,"end":10501.641,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、警政署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分。七、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":10505.023,"end":10513.948,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":10527.615,"end":10545.552,"text":"未來如何增加新住民的參與?除了在各地舉辦課程說明會或推廣活動以外,我們也結合教育部與移民署各地的服務站或地方政府"},{"start":10546.152,"end":10550.977,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":10571.208,"end":10576.611,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":10594.462,"end":10597.886,"text":"主管作業基金關於內政部主管作業基金關於內政部主管作業基金關於內政部主管作業基金關於內政部主管作業基金"},{"start":10611.684,"end":10615.888,"text":"要不要說我們這個基金也是要落實給移工要來去怎麼樣去照顧才不會導致說移工的醫療費還有其他費用還有說我們的收容所是後面就是要來給我們移民署的但是移民署要負責很"},{"start":10631.581,"end":10636.722,"text":"最大的責任就是要買機票給他們回去醫療什麼的移民署我覺得這個部分我們要去怎麼樣去協助讓我們移民署這邊才不會說沒有這個預算要去找這個預算來去花本來移工跟雇主就要找這個安定基金這個安定基金是不是要用在落實還有真的花在刀口上"},{"start":10655.507,"end":10658.99,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":10677.463,"end":10679.724,"text":"在地方建立我們勞動部要移工來到台灣6年後他們有這個技術的能力的時候他們改了中階基層所以有這樣的目標有這樣子的未來的發展"},{"start":10694.974,"end":10696.215,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10725.094,"end":10730.376,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。"},{"start":10754.727,"end":10755.868,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10773.523,"end":10794.049,"text":"栽培人才的臺灣但是人才又流失在其他國家去所以這個部分我們希望說我們移民署要加強跟勞動部跟各個部會如何來去做一個合作費用怎麼去應用才不會導致後面就變成落實在移民署的身上但是也沒辦法解決問題以上建議 謝謝那個牛委員我也沒有幾條"},{"start":10801.821,"end":10811.068,"text":"謝謝主席啊這個6個案子啊1、2、3、4、1、2、3、5個而已啦沒事20案的部分齁這個"},{"start":10813.103,"end":10837.632,"text":"有關於建立整體入出國籍移民管理的資訊系統這個部分因為預算的數量有增加113年的時候是860萬左右今年編了超過1000萬我們就關心這個事情的時候是在出入國的部分要辦理資安監控防護及個資保護管理"},{"start":10838.274,"end":10862.063,"text":"那你們在說明的時候其實有講其實速發部可以協助但後來好像速發部也是沒有協助我實在越來越搞不清楚這個部可以做什麼好第二次說明的時候講到這個移民署的這個資安專業人員其實量能是有點不太夠的啦你要執行核心業務壓力有點大所以你才會有委外嘛才會有這筆經費的存在可是問題是我們就問嘛就如果是要做資安監控防護跟個資保護管理"},{"start":10863.384,"end":10881.266,"text":"這種高度機敏性的資料委外是不是真的適合?所以你們在第二次說明的時候又講說委外單位也不會去碰到這個核心的問題只會做這個基本的一些通案的一些管理的一個措施那既然你又要委外你又沒有觸碰到核心的資訊"},{"start":10882.767,"end":10902.381,"text":"預算還增加我覺得這些說法彼此之間是相互矛盾的所以我希望這個有一個清楚的說明要不然就要拙於簡略嘛就是去年編多少今年就編多少這樣這是第20案的部分等一下我們給營運署一個說明的機會23案的部分是有關於新住民的部分叫做數位共融跟賠利計畫那這個計畫在114年的時候是編列2600萬元"},{"start":10905.983,"end":10922.258,"text":"這個計畫的利益是非常好的就是希望說新住民朋友可以多融入台灣用資訊科技讓融入台灣社會但是這個參與率其實是非常低的當然就有一定的數位落差也好或是實際上設計地位的落差也好雖然有點殘酷但使用率大概只有1.39%"},{"start":10923.499,"end":10940.583,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理�"},{"start":10950.385,"end":10951.065,"text":"三十一案是這個"},{"start":10969.881,"end":10992.915,"text":"新住民基本法通過之後為了要保障新住民的權益我們當然要成立專門機關這是立法的一個結論但是我們在幾次的說明裡面我們並不是很了解新住民未來這個署到底成立的業務量能的規劃在哪裡預計其整到目前為止我們都還沒有一個明確的答案這一點希望移民署做一定的說明第三十九案這個是入出國跟移民管理的規劃"},{"start":10993.935,"end":11010.51,"text":"這個問題就比較深入了但我還是希望可以聽到比較誠實的回答這我們講的就是敏感的問題啦就是很多人跳機嘛就是搭飛機來然後就滯留在機場那當然就聲稱要尋求政治庇護好那既然要談到政治庇護這樣子敏感的問題的時候那當然要有所謂的法源依據嘛"},{"start":11011.19,"end":11025.555,"text":"但是我國並沒有所謂的難民法所以說現在實務上的狀況就是說跳機的人士他就在管制區裡面你也沒有專屬安置空間你也沒有專門的安置經費深圳很多時候相關的這個單位這還要自掏腰包去滿足其基本的生活需求"},{"start":11026.255,"end":11054.33,"text":"那在管制區裡面要走來走去好像也許這個國安上面或多或少都會有一定的疑慮啦那麼基層執行人員的負擔這本席非常關心啦就是你沒有法沒有明確的這個法源依據然後實務上出現問題的時候那很難處理那既然沒有法源依據的情況下很多時候是政治處理嘛你就等待高層指示嘛這該是要遣返還是說另做安排所以它整個是在高度不確定的狀況下面來做處理的法令不完備的問題要怎麼樣來做處理啊"},{"start":11054.99,"end":11069.347,"text":"這我覺得移民署總要做一個規劃那內政部的部分要做一個說明最後一個是53案這個是無國籍人民跟外國人的預期停留那最近調高了罰款那這個雖然有點"},{"start":11070.248,"end":11071.589,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":11085.746,"end":11108.672,"text":"剛好我們在實務上的觀察就是自行投案人數降低了因為罰則提高了可是自行投案人數降低的時候相對來講它其實就影響了事業移工的管控跟掌握跟遣返等等的一個狀況自行投案率的降低跟罰款提高目前看起來是有一定的關聯性那這個部分是不是也要做一些說明那剛剛有其他委員有提到救安基金要去補罰款這也是都是"},{"start":11110.532,"end":11122.663,"text":"不太正確的事情。針對私人移工的管控、預期居留的管控如何做得更加的來精進。這部分我們希望移民署來做出一些說明。以上是本集題五個案子,謝謝。剛剛那個張委員。好,謝謝主席。我要請教第47案,也是徐姓委員的提案,我有連署。"},{"start":11135.38,"end":11140.091,"text":"針對這個114年度移民署預算案第二幕入出國籍移民管理業務向下主要就是針對"},{"start":11142.066,"end":11167.289,"text":"執行外來人口管理服務及違法調查處理業務。編列預算114年是編列8698萬。那大家可以瞭解到說因為移民署為了鼓勵民眾檢舉失聯移工特別設立獎勵辦法只要有人發現失聯移工並向相關單位通報成功有機會可以領的五千那新聞報導是寫是五千到七萬塊不等獎金"},{"start":11168.25,"end":11183.36,"text":"不料該機制被移民署內部人士尤其有些內部高層用來榨零獎金我們想要請教署長的是說那現在這個機制未來為什麼會他的獎金是5000到7萬不等的獎金"},{"start":11185.16,"end":11213.339,"text":"過去有人濫用這樣的獎金我想請教我們移民署到底是編列多少的獎金在這個預算單位裡面去那未來要如何去做改善的精進部分所以這個學信委員是有提議要凍結一千萬那就請移民署就涉嫌偽造檢舉勢力的移工詐領獎金的問題提出具體改善計畫後提出專案報告後始經同意才可以凍結以上謝謝"},{"start":11215.84,"end":11233.445,"text":"來那個方位謝主席所以本期在這DM有提出幾個案子第一個就是在第10萬部分那個水電費因為水電費增加比較多大概高達19%那本來其實這一項是要減驗350萬不過經過署長的說明其實真的確實那個移民署"},{"start":11239.927,"end":11240.768,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11260.911,"end":11269.253,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":11288.439,"end":11292.383,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11309.321,"end":11323.841,"text":"我們知道其實這幾年移民署真的很認真在做這個部分不過數據上還是可以告訴大家確實它的移工是越來越多那當然我們知道移民署認真可是問題還是沒有解決"},{"start":11325.868,"end":11327.389,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11351.784,"end":11376.56,"text":"還是需要其他部會來協助所以我們要強化的就是在源頭的審查還有管理機制那這邊要請書面提出書面報告強烈的要求要提出書面報告那包括內容要包括跟各部會的分工跟合作的成果也讓其他部會能夠來協助整個移工的問題來解決所以這部分我們本席這邊提出凍結100萬那要求書面報告之後來使用凍結"},{"start":11378.782,"end":11384.237,"text":"金融衛生社動資以上就是本席提的幾個案子請說明"},{"start":11391.423,"end":11411.47,"text":"喂,好,署長,針對齁,我們的失聯移工齁,你看齁,每年現在已經提升到八萬八千多齁,但是齁,你說法管提升齁,但是你要從源頭,你所有移工進來都是仲介,仲介公司,那你仲介公司,你那麼多仲介公司,你要做一個"},{"start":11412.27,"end":11414.332,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":11431.812,"end":11445.118,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土"},{"start":11456.443,"end":11456.923,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":11482.658,"end":11508.548,"text":"我這邊提兩個問題也希望可以得到署長的回應第一個就是說失聯移工目前有沒有統計他是當初進來台灣的時候他的的種類是哪一種比如說營建移工或者是照護移工這是第一個第二個就是有沒有所謂的黑戶寶寶就是失聯移工他們當然如果真的有辦法生出小孩了那這個小孩"},{"start":11509.773,"end":11526.463,"text":"我們現在怎麼處理那有沒有可能讓失聯移工他可以把這個小孩既然生出來了那我們對這個小孩的政策到底是怎樣以上這兩點也希望做一個回應好那請說明好"},{"start":11531.887,"end":11557.311,"text":"主席各位委員請就各位委員所追詢的我來逐項的報告有關剛剛麥委員所提的移工跟我們雇主都有繳交救安基金那救安基金怎麼樣來支援本屬的尤其是消防署"},{"start":11558.251,"end":11584.853,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金�"},{"start":11586.554,"end":11599.708,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":11609.438,"end":11635.86,"text":"收容所衍生的這些費用盡量的我們都有請這個救安基金這邊來支應那這個部分我們也透過每一年我們都透過製作這個計劃來跟他們做申請那過去我記得大概10年前大概我們大概用了大概三四千萬那到現在大概我們一年也要跟他申請到"},{"start":11636.36,"end":11647.348,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":11655.615,"end":11669.476,"text":"這個移工類的我們還是會請這個救安基金要用在我們這個地方能夠支援我們這個部分我們會持續來辦理至於中階技術人力說這個部分就是說"},{"start":11670.658,"end":11693.79,"text":"移工在這邊工作滿六年以後可以他這個申請進入到中階技術人力的這個部分最主要還是在勞動部他來來主政他有一個這個流財久用的一個方案那至於說會不會有很多的關卡這個所謂剛剛的看得到吃不到等等這些我想我們移民署是"},{"start":11694.85,"end":11708.649,"text":"後面的一個查處單位那怎麼樣的流財這個部分我們會來跟勞動部這個這個來進一步的商量看看目前我所知道的這個"},{"start":11710.692,"end":11732.947,"text":"就是說中階技術人力好像在廠工方面是申請的是比較多照護方面的還比較少未來怎麼樣把這些有經營的這些人才持續的留下來我們會跟勞動部來跟他們做一些建議這個是我想照委員的意見來辦"},{"start":11734.128,"end":11735.489,"text":"民務委員提到資訊委外監控服務部分"},{"start":11744.889,"end":11758.715,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":11765.538,"end":11780.473,"text":"因為像移民署我們的資訊來講系統非常的多啦多達大概有40幾個系統46個系統其實非常的規模非常的龐大我們除了入住境查驗系統"},{"start":11781.614,"end":11782.555,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":11800.206,"end":11815.376,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":11828.484,"end":11842.012,"text":"這個積合除了我剛剛講的這樣子的所謂的上級的積合、自辦內控跟內積的積合等等之外我們還是需要這個委外廠商來跟我們做協助"},{"start":11844.093,"end":11873.063,"text":"其實這個經常性的工作除了你做集合之外經常性的一個監控除了我們自己的人以外我們也希望這個廠商也需要廠商他們的專業來協助我們因為這個資安的工作是與時俱進的這個經常也是會發布所謂的資安的警戒這個警告等等這些資訊那這個時候就要加強要去注意所以我想這個部分"},{"start":11873.943,"end":11888.701,"text":"是不是委員也容許我們除了我們剛剛所報告的以外這個外部的一個委外其實也是相對的非常的一個重要那至於說那個新住民資訊的數位的"},{"start":11889.321,"end":11894.625,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":11907.154,"end":11909.055,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11928.242,"end":11940.607,"text":"這個移工的這個引進的這個這個部分這個因為最主要涉及的還是在勞動部那至於說有沒有這個他這個這個過程這個31案是什麼給我看一下31案"},{"start":11953.578,"end":11955.621,"text":"我還是要看了一下對不起"},{"start":11963.425,"end":11980.336,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、"},{"start":11985.179,"end":11996.865,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12008.811,"end":12036.429,"text":"主設的部分我們也盤點新機關未來是4個組或3個組我們做不同方案的一些評估那到明年的話我也跟委員報告我們會在下個會期會把我們的這個組織法的一個草案還有移民法因為那如果是這個新住民的這個三級機關出去那我們自己的組織法也要做修"},{"start":12037.149,"end":12040.794,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12053.826,"end":12062.129,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":12069.511,"end":12095.235,"text":"沒有說讓他在管制區裡面趴趴走事實上我們在管制區裡面是有照護室就照護室有這個設置那那個經費的話也不會說讓同仁自己負擔因為如果這個航空公司搭載的來的這個乘客沒有按照這個他的轉機到往下一層的目的地走"},{"start":12095.675,"end":12116.51,"text":"然後又未具備進入我國的這些簽證或是許可的話事實上這些相關的費用還是航空司要做一些負擔那這些我們都妥適的處理相關的案件我們會做身份的清查然後也會會同相關的機關做一些認定"},{"start":12120.052,"end":12122.474,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12135.223,"end":12161.178,"text":"大陸地區人民事實上在難民法的一個之前的一個設計事實上也不包括大陸地區的人民不過我們目前也有一個就是說有既有的一個機制在處理的也不至於說說這個像委員剛所提的好像來了我們就是會這個沒有一定的"},{"start":12161.818,"end":12162.899,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12171.971,"end":12176.254,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":12202.034,"end":12202.076,"text":"總預算案"},{"start":12202.765,"end":12217.788,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":12233.251,"end":12242.857,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12257.886,"end":12267.331,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":12282.931,"end":12304.449,"text":"轉完了以後我們也要划算也要把它降低讓它好像不必付出任何的代價就出去我想這個有一個平衡點所以跟委員報告我們這個做這樣子的一個這個調升還是有它的意義存在這跟委員做報告"},{"start":12305.229,"end":12316.138,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":12329.622,"end":12343.43,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":12358.154,"end":12386.964,"text":"大概一年支付多少錢?一年支付多少錢?大概是達到兩千多萬,是不是?但是去年有一個擴大專案。對,我想那個檢舉獎金呢,幹委員所要提的是,如果說是檢舉獎金是給民眾的,我想應該用不到兩萬。"},{"start":12388.137,"end":12402.344,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":12414.97,"end":12429.099,"text":"是麻煩署長講重點好不好好那最後就是黃委員有提到水電費啦這些我就不再回個人電腦台灣我們都照辦我就不再回復了"},{"start":12430.601,"end":12436.689,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12445.521,"end":12452.366,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。"},{"start":12475.741,"end":12484.47,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":12499.385,"end":12521.222,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預"},{"start":12531.307,"end":12554.733,"text":"來 牛尾謝謝主席我覺得詳細說明還不錯有解答一部分的問題不過我們還是要稍微注意一下比如說剛剛這個資訊服務費的系統我們大概要理解你的分工概念但是還要解關鍵的問題其實是那為什麼會增加嘛從800多萬到1000多萬它是增加了哪些業務量還是新的項目這一部分請移民署要提供資料沒關係我們待會就進入那個額度的協商那個時候再來補充是OK的"},{"start":12555.653,"end":12560.154,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":12584.001,"end":12611.801,"text":"這個出入國移民管理規劃的部分就是所謂的挑機人士現在法務依據但是你講有一個SOP那是不是到時候你提供書面報告的時候用書面報告的方式把這個SOP跟管理的機制來做清楚的說明跟補充那本集要特別提醒因為我們當然是跟第一線的執法人員有做過一些瞭解跟訪談才會知道有這樣一個反應換言之你的SOP如果可以跟基層的執法人員做好的會商讓他們可以好辦事減輕基層的負擔我想他就是有意義的好不好"},{"start":12612.601,"end":12622.044,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署及所屬、"},{"start":12636.429,"end":12659.374,"text":"來讓這個失聯移工的問題可以做﹐可以得到進一步的解決而不是把專情隊累得半死嘛對不對所以這部分也請做一下補充說明以上謝謝主席我講一下主席在這我有提案在第二幕提到這樣在這個專情隊裡面的能力改善的措施裡面我感覺說"},{"start":12660.819,"end":12676.569,"text":"這個營收負擔的太大應該要增加人力啦在這裏面你們要好好去處理一下因為我認為你要叫他做工作人員的營收不夠說出來要怎麼做才有好的成績出來以上好請說明"},{"start":12685.752,"end":12708.877,"text":"主席、各位委員有關這個資訊的部分今年我初步了解我們因為對於相關跟我們借接機關也增加不少包括比如說打造我們就增加金管會、通傳會等等相關機關跟我們借接那像這些我們也都要做資安的一些集合"},{"start":12712.438,"end":12732.559,"text":"可能還有其他的一些項目我想我們執行組組長等一下會再做說明那有關新機關的那個期程我們盡量這個部分我想在下會期我們把這個草案我們希望能夠行政院能夠通過然後送到我們"},{"start":12733.26,"end":12749.565,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民"},{"start":12762.569,"end":12769.374,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。"},{"start":12794.069,"end":12814.635,"text":"111年因為那個就是說就是那個邊境解封以後我們為了因應那個那個機場那個人流的部分所以優先是在那個地方後續我想這個部分我們會來跟上級來爭取"},{"start":12816.055,"end":12835.149,"text":"要去清除、要去處理,否則真的他們的負擔也很重。你要叫他們去做,如果他們不夠、人不夠,要怎麼去做多少工作?好不好?好,這個我們持續來爭取。好,做以上的一個答覆。好,我們寫這樣。"},{"start":13323.51,"end":13341.421,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":13351.021,"end":13374.358,"text":"阿對啊中央就是不用再說啦對啊齁好來那我們第三幕齁欸沒有沒有嘿就就照列齁預算照列那組決議也沒有好不好那我們啦新住民發展基金啦只有兩案我們處理一下好不好齁好我還是要宣告一下好不好齁一、二案改組決議齁"},{"start":13380.496,"end":13404.832,"text":"那我們現在移民署的預算我們全部都處理完了那移民署的也可以先回去那各位有要休息嗎我看大家聖錦霄"},{"start":13414.636,"end":13427.822,"text":"好啊!那先休息一下好不好?好!那先休息一下!好好!我跟你講齁!"},{"start":13439.804,"end":13444.447,"text":"沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦這個是我們委員會這個是我們委員會決定不是部長決定對啦這個是我們委員會決定來我跟你講我們先休息兩分鐘討論一下"},{"start":13685.609,"end":13687.717,"text":"好我們休息30分鐘吃飯吼"},{"start":16417.79,"end":16444.809,"text":"好來那我們現在開始審齁這個警政署的預算齁那我們那個有涉及機密的那個部分我們先不處理好不好那我們其他的先來處理齁好來那個警政署的稅出部分"},{"start":16447.029,"end":16467.046,"text":"主席有關會議詢問就是說很感謝主席剛剛特別提說這個有類為密件的部分暫不處理那是不是要討論一下要什麼時候處理禮拜三早上啊剛剛不是這樣好了沒有要宣告一下拜託拜託主席宣告一下那個是我們這個今天審完我們結束之後會宣告當然啦不是現在啦我們照程序來好不好"},{"start":16472.776,"end":16494.27,"text":"好來那我們來警政署及所屬稅出的部分這個通案的部分這個委員都不在啦那我們是我們等一下到裡面我們再來處理好不好好來第一幕一般行政來我先宣告一下好不好"},{"start":16496.465,"end":16499.906,"text":"第四、五、六、七、八、九、十改組決議"},{"start":16514.189,"end":16528.617,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所"},{"start":16543.985,"end":16559.14,"text":"提高全面的防詐意識提高防詐意識會做這個這個未來對於網路跟這個電視的這個部分都在做加強那這部分我們會一起來做努力使得詐欺的案件能夠降低"},{"start":16560.281,"end":16586.841,"text":"降低詐欺的犯罪以及詐欺受騙的金額。這個問題我們會做每個禮拜每個月多做來做一個檢討,做以上的一個補充。這個你們回答的時候,我只給30秒就不要超過,好不好?你做到署長了應該可以啦。"},{"start":16588.251,"end":16590.374,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":16597.761,"end":16602.202,"text":"我先宣告一下好不好47、49、51、57、58、59、60、61測案12、14、16、17、19、20、22、23、24、26、28、29、31、37、39、41、46、50、52、53、55改組決議各位委員有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":16625.816,"end":16644.641,"text":"都沒有齁好謝謝主席喔主席我們15案是賺機密嘛齁對啊對啊18案呢18案也是機密18案也是機密齁對好謝謝"},{"start":16657.311,"end":16662.354,"text":"因為這一幕啊大家有那個的幾乎都是我們禮拜三要審的啦"},{"start":16689.694,"end":16690.375,"text":"對阿都是阿"},{"start":16699.932,"end":16717.515,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金�"},{"start":16728.138,"end":16742.135,"text":"重新整理警政單位的就是讓人民重新信任警察這個部分所以我有動10%就是警政業務的部分以上報告其他都改主結議"},{"start":16749.266,"end":16764.342,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我幫徐欣委員要請教署長關於第33案,就是有關於近年近期來警察封記跟貪賭問題時有所聞,以及是不是警員有過去有跟這個犯罪集團勾結的"},{"start":16765.543,"end":16766.143,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":16781.611,"end":16807.79,"text":"賭博網站,新北行大也有查到偵查組被控侵佔毒品遭生壓。今年的11月7日,臺南警察在查緝地下賭場時,也有查到臺南市交通警察大隊的員警與民眾聚賭。我們想請教署長的是,最近這一系列警察風紀案件持續連續爆發,造成社會對警察的信心不足。"},{"start":16808.61,"end":16829.46,"text":"那尤其針對這個濫用職權、非法取得個資提供詐欺集團使用那大家最近都在這個打詐還發現有這樣的情況覺得非常不能接受所以是不是請這個署長提供說是否有哪一些內部集合的措施、追索機制在我們每位辛苦的員警在辦案的時候可以調用哪一些資料"},{"start":16830.08,"end":16855.039,"text":"要來集合勾基,能防弊,並有效查緝、控制警政情勢外洩的情形。學信委員提出應該要凍結預算10%,請警政署重新檢討,並提出更有效對應的方案。也要對內政委員會提出專案報告,經同意獲實的動質。以上,謝謝。好,還有沒有其他委員?"},{"start":16856.857,"end":16864.728,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":16872.057,"end":16875.541,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府作業基金．營建基金。"},{"start":16887.795,"end":16904.907,"text":"對於這個風機的整治應該是要從我們的主觀來做一個有這個整治風機的這個決心那當然有一些這個措施包括這個張文所提的就是遠景對於泄密的這個部分我們是有遠景的一個考的一個機制那這個機制裡面對於"},{"start":16906.668,"end":16910.672,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":16925.385,"end":16942.262,"text":"有異樣或有異狀的這個這個狀況來做一個來做一個查核那我們這方面的績效也也非常的也非常就是有發現到這個狀況那這個資訊如果是他只是一個好奇當然屬於行政的部分我們都給你重層那如果有外洩"},{"start":16943.143,"end":16949.63,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":16966.227,"end":16972.849,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":16990.689,"end":17011.428,"text":"謝謝主席主席這個本席在警政署裡面有提幾個案子那這邊先提出來大家討論第一個就是在那個41案的部分就是我們在辦理這個競賽擬軍向新力那因為整個競賽的那個內容並沒有詳細的說明過於籠統所以這個案子本席是提議要凍結10%"},{"start":17013.47,"end":17023.655,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府主管作業基金．營建建設基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":17044.019,"end":17068.852,"text":"116的部分116部分這個是我們的刑事警察事務費呃刑事警察業務費裡面辦刑事偵防中的業務裡面業務費的物品那個那個洪委員洪委員我們現在第二部分不好意思不好意思不好意思先這樣先這樣謝謝好那個那個徐委員"},{"start":17073.64,"end":17083.928,"text":"謝謝主席。針對第二幕的部分,就是我的提案是有針對40、43、44案。這三個案子都是辦理經濟、民利、任務、隊的編組訓練。44、34、44是禮拜三嗎?是24吧?"},{"start":17094.92,"end":17098.783,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17110.643,"end":17112.325,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":17129.481,"end":17154.958,"text":"因為我們看到這些項目是有講說要增強地方民力的裝備辦理民力技能競賽跟強化相關訓練那這些項目目前看起來是為了提升基層民力的能力跟效率但實際的內容執行我們並沒有看到清楚的規劃跟具體的說明那我想這個民力的提升有效運用是地方治安這個穩定的一個重要基礎"},{"start":17155.839,"end":17160.443,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17179.201,"end":17199.656,"text":"那要求警政署於一個月內向立法院內政委員會提交書面報告新同意後才能夠動用那當然報告的內容要清楚的說明計劃內容實施方式跟預期效益讓我們可以更具體的瞭解這些支出的必要性跟合理性謝謝好 那個蘇委員"},{"start":17204.346,"end":17217.953,"text":"好 謝謝主席也謝謝署長那我們在這裡其實因為警政署的溝通相當的多所以在會議之前幾乎我看各位委員幾乎都已經改成主決議了那我們為什麼還是要特別發言幾句呢因為其實在這裡強調大家關心的項目"},{"start":17221.195,"end":17244.869,"text":"所以我想我在這邊也就特別在我所有案件當中的16、17特別再強調一次警察的離職率還有這個自殺率的這個部分呢也希望警政署這邊可以依循這個我們在做討論的時候那有什麼改進方式的這個部分留下書面報告大概這是我們主決議的方式那其他我就不再多談謝謝好 謝謝文好 還有沒有委員"},{"start":17246.602,"end":17254.891,"text":"沒有的話說明一下主政委員剛剛學院所提的這個40案是屬於密件我們在密會再來處理那43跟44案對於這個對於這個"},{"start":17264.361,"end":17266.304,"text":"內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":17279.445,"end":17287.012,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":17303.047,"end":17307.77,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":17322.824,"end":17328.85,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。"},{"start":17348.718,"end":17363.589,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央建設基金。"},{"start":17376.305,"end":17388.063,"text":"15、18、27、40、42、63"},{"start":17391.909,"end":17398.897,"text":"四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建基金。"},{"start":17414.593,"end":17417.435,"text":"這個分兩年執行114年度為第一年編列金額是5106萬"},{"start":17434.347,"end":17452.882,"text":"包含業務費、設備投資及獎補助費。但是因為這個部分是屬於新興的重大支出,我們必須根據財政紀律法與預算籌編的原則進行嚴格的審查。請警政署可不可以在針對這個部分能夠有書面報告來給我們內政委員會,來瞭解詳細計劃、財源規劃與選擇與替代方案的成本效益分析。"},{"start":17468.427,"end":17486.998,"text":"黃委員謝謝主席本期再次發言就是針對第二幕這個第48案是發案這個部分是針對我們新增強化空襲警報發放及警察機關指揮通訊通訊備援中程計劃這個裡面的預算裡面"},{"start":17493.41,"end":17504.723,"text":"因為這個基金會主要是建設我們整個警政署還有各地方警察局還有這個所屬的這個警察機關這勤務中心的第一個那個援助所嘛是不是"},{"start":17506.322,"end":17528.691,"text":"因為你建置的部分你實際草原作業到今年7月底還有10個縣市的防空疏散避難設施的收容倍數會打1.2倍你這個計劃辦理的目的主要是要強化我們空襲警報的這個設備爭取防空避難的實效然後讓民眾有更多時間來確保來避難然後確保人民的生命安全"},{"start":17531.052,"end":17551.865,"text":"考量到整個都市人口的密集程度跟活動人口變化的幅度,除了直轄市、基中市、新竹市還有嘉義市供需比例不得低於2倍以外,其他縣市供需比例不能低於1.2倍。可以看到這個計劃上有改善的空間,所以這邊本席是提要凍結20%,讓警政署還有所屬機關在一個月內向立法院內政委員提報告。"},{"start":17555.447,"end":17556.968,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17571.9,"end":17593.14,"text":"也要提升我們警察的通訊還有警報發放的應變的韌性。爭取到最好的時間來防空避難的時效,這樣也可以確保我們民眾安全。確實這個在跟署議院討論過有起必要性。在這一個部分本席這邊也有原本提要凍結20%改做凍結10%"},{"start":17596.303,"end":17597.804,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":17610.489,"end":17637.554,"text":"好,我想要請教就是有關於徐新委員提出的第54案就是有關於這個114年度警政署及所屬預算案在警政業務下面有編列加強警察效益訓練業務裡面主要就是要配合內政部警政署保二總隊的過邊轉型計畫然後主要就是要做就是關鍵基礎設施的保安警力的這個基礎的訓練費編列了2300"},{"start":17642.265,"end":17663.274,"text":"主要原因就是因為臺灣政府因應中共軍事威脅要加強保護關鍵設施的緣故。我們的劉部長也在今年5月內政委員會報告表定要在114年前就今年要派駐1811的精英、警力、防衛、油、水、電、通訊等民生及產業基礎設施"},{"start":17664.955,"end":17688.043,"text":"可是我們要跟署長部長報告的是因為現在我們基層的警力不足國內最重要的治安問題打炸掃黑氣毒的問題原本都是基層刑警還有警力的重要的工作之一面臨人口短缺的問題那很多而且很多基層警察認為你要要調很多人去幫忙這個保二總隊來去這個"},{"start":17691.584,"end":17715.514,"text":"保護關鍵器物設施本末倒置,以及保1、保4、保5要分發到各縣市資源的人手,也是非常不夠。是不是可以請警政署署長跟署長提出解決方案?徐欣穎委員有希望凍結該預算的50%,請警政署提出相關方案,以及向立法院內政委員會提出專案報告,經同意後,使得凍值。"},{"start":17724.29,"end":17739.505,"text":"主持人、委員張委員所提的這個對於這個保二的警力的一個擴編警力的這個來源當然有一些是從學校畢業的然後有一些地方的一個來做增調那不過增調的部分我們會做地方的警力也會做派補"},{"start":17740.446,"end":17759.302,"text":"今年113年我們已經有增派有1800人的這個警力到這個各縣市的這個警察局去那每年110年我們預計在派補2700人所以這個警力的數的派補我們不會讓地方警力減少這邊跟委員做一個報告那其他的部分對於保"},{"start":17760.163,"end":17765.388,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":17782.924,"end":17810.042,"text":"好所以我再請教一下就署長您的意思是說113年底已經1811位的都已經派駐到關鍵設施去了不是派駐到各縣市警察局不是關鍵設施地方的警局是派駐到地方的警局有多派駐人手到不是保衛的那這些人就是只是挹注在地方的挹注在地方的警力那他們還沒有派駐到關鍵設施還沒還沒那明年會增加到2700"},{"start":17811.583,"end":17829.177,"text":"這個警力處我們在內會裡面再跟委員有做報告。好,好,好,謝謝,謝謝。好,沒有的話那我們...委員是不是不要凍結?好了,好了,好了,沒有了。不是,對,還有沒有?沒有我們就協商喔。好,協商一下。"},{"start":17852.554,"end":17854.178,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18128.163,"end":18155.385,"text":"那個主席我們是書面要同意後才使得動之謝謝來這個區委員所有的案子並案處理然後整我們扣掉機密的部分整目凍結500萬然後書面報告同意後是可動之好來再來下一幕"},{"start":18163.987,"end":18186.266,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建設基金"},{"start":18190.049,"end":18211.281,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。"},{"start":18218.018,"end":18219.719,"text":"77、81、83、84、85是我們禮拜三要處理的"},{"start":18247.366,"end":18251.968,"text":"對那79、80改組決議剩78、82、85之一剩三個案剩78跟85之一"},{"start":18271.85,"end":18282.764,"text":"這是關鍵基礎設施呢?這關鍵基礎設施呢?他們可能是排順序排錯對啦應該是編碼編錯啦好不好來說明一下78案"},{"start":18289.386,"end":18306.91,"text":"那78案對於這個﹐有關於那個﹐保安﹐保安的一個﹐誒這個也是關鍵基金設施的呢?也是啊。包委員﹐78是不是也是關鍵設施?78不是啦﹐他只是說我們開業是怎樣﹐結合民意這樣子。"},{"start":18320.523,"end":18322.143,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18343.166,"end":18359.06,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":18368.865,"end":18386.282,"text":"好這個是我上上屆我極力要求的才做的為了同仁的安全為了行車的安全所以你們要做好了好那我改組決議來第6幕來我宣告一下"},{"start":18391.565,"end":18392.305,"text":"這全部都是測案來98案、114案、117、118、125、126、127、128、129、130、131、132、133、134測案"},{"start":18407.253,"end":18407.273,"text":"93、94、95、96、97、103、106、110、1213、1215、1212、123、135改組決議"},{"start":18423.773,"end":18436.925,"text":"來 有沒有委員來 老麥委員謝謝主席好像在開坦克車一樣衝衝衝沒有紅燈沒有紅燈沒有紅燈大家都沒有在這個費用變得怎麼樣就怎麼花這樣子 感覺"},{"start":18445.973,"end":18449.857,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":18464.192,"end":18468.195,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":18493.257,"end":18504.94,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18511.042,"end":18514.606,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":18533.598,"end":18559.589,"text":"針對124案這個是網路科技運用經濟計劃的一個部分那這個計劃今年的經費高達50多億那其中竟然有40多億的這個經費是要支付給三大電信業者用於建置網路流量的記錄保存供政府進行打炸使用因為這個部分呢其實我不是針對警政署我最主要是針對三大電信業者因為"},{"start":18560.269,"end":18581.911,"text":"當然我知道根據通保法的規定建置費用要由政府來負擔但這三家電信業者毫無顧忌的開出了40多億的天價然後而且把這個巨額的成本是轉嫁給納稅人那請問一下臺灣的詐騙集團日漸猖獗這些電信業者沒有責任嗎尤其是很多詐騙集團都是跟這些電信業者買廣告"},{"start":18583.553,"end":18585.354,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央三、繼續審查114年度中央三、繼續審查114年度中央三、繼續審查114年度中央三、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":18610.723,"end":18613.265,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建建設基金。"},{"start":18640.583,"end":18643.967,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":18663.266,"end":18672.168,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營建建設基金。"},{"start":18694.844,"end":18720.206,"text":"好謝謝主席那我這邊提的是第107案我們這個低學中委員所提案我有連署其實詐騙真的是現在人民所深惡痛絕尤其詐騙金額屢屢創新高那本席在這一個會期其實有開過公聽會其實我非常肯定這個警政署的做法因為我認為執行單位跟司法單位他們算後勤單位其實行政單位比如說NCC速發部"},{"start":18721.047,"end":18735.936,"text":"或金管會他們還是第一線要去處理要去協助打詐的第一手可是我現在不能接受的是因為我們第一學端委員有提到可是警政署怎麼會在114年在刑事警察業務的部分在編列的這個媒體宣傳費高達2億3491萬"},{"start":18742.08,"end":18750.824,"text":"不是說不能媒體宣傳,可是113年的時候也有該經費的編列,因為內容都是一模一樣,可是只編了1068萬,114年編了2億3千4百萬,真的有這樣的效果嗎?"},{"start":18764.029,"end":18778.398,"text":"預算是增加2億2423萬增加了20倍我想要請教這個署長跟部長真的這樣子宣傳費大增20倍就可以這個防止詐騙嗎還是只是把錢又又人民納稅錢又又"},{"start":18779.378,"end":18786.564,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．"},{"start":18809.488,"end":18809.968,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18833.989,"end":18855.136,"text":"我認為爭議不小啦第一個它膨脹跟增加的幅度實在太驚人了去年大概是1500萬那你當然有說明嘛說因為大家要積極打詐所以說1500萬很快就用完了但你從1500萬一下變2億4千萬也太誇張了那另外你的用途別的細項裡面第一個你要在網路平台進行大量的廣告投放這個我們那時候在審打詐的法案的時候其實就有討論到啦"},{"start":18855.936,"end":18882.534,"text":"就是你如果真的要處理的話應該是要刻意這些平台業者監管的責任嘛就是你要讓他們源頭去處理這件事情結果這件事情當初就是做不到嘛你沒有辦法約束這些人然後你沒有辦法約束這些人你反過來還要花很多錢在上面然後跟詐騙集團搞軍備競賽我是覺得不太划算這個是我是覺得有容加檢討是必要那另外一部分一億多大概是做所謂的電視節目的設計啊你們打算要做什麼電視節目你們要拍Netflix的劇嗎還是說要拍電影"},{"start":18883.214,"end":18883.855,"text":"大陸電影《孤注一擲》"},{"start":18902.091,"end":18903.453,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18919.733,"end":18924.496,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":18934.98,"end":18958.2,"text":"我們政府歷次以來針對打炸的各種影片投放的KPI或是什麼你有沒有辦法跟這支影片來做相比我認為其實落差會非常巨大還是說你警政署有辦法打包票就是說我花這1億多我可以拍出一個跟那個有類似效果的影片或劇如果是這樣那我覺得這個預算我不會反對但是你過去政府在這種媒體拍影片、投放等等的成效其實恐怕大部分的結果是慘不忍睹"},{"start":18958.86,"end":18959.26,"text":"另外一位"},{"start":18979.689,"end":18997.732,"text":"這個第2目的預算下我提議針對媒體宣傳經費提案主要是因為這項經費是要宣傳反詐業務明年度預算相較今年大幅提升2億多元是今年的20倍打詐的經費相信大家都很支持"},{"start":18998.473,"end":19014.252,"text":"例如其他經費有購買設備社長設備只要合理大家都會支持但要防止詐騙媒體宣傳不是最急需經費更何況增加20倍的媒體採購更是不合理所以我提案凍結這項"},{"start":19017.078,"end":19025.985,"text":"這個項目經費5000萬,請內政部向內政委員會提出專案報告,並經同意後,使得動之。"},{"start":19033.035,"end":19036.717,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":19047.884,"end":19063.593,"text":"在112年3萬7千多件那今年又增加了8千多件那尤其就是投資詐欺的案件增加了5千多件所以本期在這邊就90案凍結了500萬那"},{"start":19069.877,"end":19095.512,"text":"120案凍結300萬最主要是我們要如何來打詐將這個案件把它降低那本席所提出的那提出素面資料本席同意動之,謝謝主席,在這九十一案的這個網路科技運用的"},{"start":19097.557,"end":19123.519,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分"},{"start":19124.522,"end":19142.222,"text":"因為都沒有定期去追蹤醫療防詐騙的系統平台後續要如何辦理要如何處理的情形我認為都沒有特地去了解在18日之後,對我們的檢察單位"},{"start":19145.877,"end":19155.747,"text":"我就去配合警政署提供詐騙的體管的熱點進行申請,因為說實在,他們每天的申請已經很辛苦了,應該是不是要怎麼來處理?"},{"start":19164.565,"end":19191.127,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營"},{"start":19194.149,"end":19212.835,"text":"這個成效要出來,以上。阿賴立委員。署長還有局長,我為難你們一下啦。我要問一個你們答不出來的問題。大家都在關心打詐,大家都在關心反詐。"},{"start":19215.072,"end":19228.101,"text":"現在編列出來的打詐或者是宣導詐騙的這個宣傳的費用是兩億多,你有辦法跟我說詐騙集團它的廣告費用是多少嗎?"},{"start":19230.021,"end":19231.943,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":19248.376,"end":19268.008,"text":"那摸高好幾丈你這個少少的這些經費裡面怎麼樣去說服我們委員會說你們用極少的經費還是要想辦法讓全國的民眾知道這一些這類型的行為可能是詐騙這個是你們要說服我們來讓同意這一筆預算的謝謝還有沒有話要說明一下"},{"start":19274.426,"end":19289.861,"text":"主持人、各位委員,我想各位最關心的目前就是對於打仗裡面的一個宣傳。我們做了一個民調,我沒有做民調,就是打仗的過程當中哪一樣最重要?其實民眾"},{"start":19290.942,"end":19299.728,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．"},{"start":19310.635,"end":19317.497,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":19338.114,"end":19344.395,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金．營建基金。"},{"start":19367.92,"end":19378.751,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":19390.482,"end":19410.143,"text":"每週裡面大概可以看到30秒鐘的這個這個這個投放的一個我們反照片的一個狀況那剛剛張文有提到說還有那個劉偉有都提到就是這些的內容要怎麼來做一個呈現嗎也就是說這個拍了這個品質要怎麼來呈現我覺得這個未來是我們努力的標這個是最重要的"},{"start":19410.503,"end":19419.714,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":19426.301,"end":19449.118,"text":"這一些的詐欺的一個訊息這個第一點就有關這個有關這個行銷的這個部分那部委員特別提到對於這個包括這個吳衛所提的就是現在詐欺裡面的部分現在最多大概是投資詐騙大概佔百分之六成以上他詐騙的賤數跟金額都居多那這個部分大概就是在投放的源頭的一個狀況"},{"start":19450.698,"end":19467.572,"text":"另外就是網友所提的就是這個網路的一個一個詐欺這個部分我們剛剛也有提到就是就是宣導的部分要讓讓大家知道就是在電視跟網路能夠比較直接來讓人們對於這個這個詐騙的訊息的一個宣導"},{"start":19471.599,"end":19479.328,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業"},{"start":19488.74,"end":19492.844,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":19509.921,"end":19528.047,"text":"114年度的詐欺的2.0的總預算只有9.1億那含那個含那個網路流量那個徐遠所提的網路流量大概總共才只有70幾億那網路流量的部分我們會遵照委員的這個這個建議來做一個辦理做以上的補充來 蔓偉遠"},{"start":19534.311,"end":19550.002,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝署長我們希望的是有效不是數據數據是冷冰冰的有效的是說別人你說詐騙集團花2億達到一天人民被騙5億"},{"start":19551.423,"end":19552.584,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央三、繼續審查114年度中央三、繼續審查114年度中央三、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":19579.847,"end":19580.227,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":19603.729,"end":19605.61,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":19626.924,"end":19630.306,"text":"三大電信業者希望你們要去溝通那目前不曉得溝通的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":19657.899,"end":19680.631,"text":"你先回答那這個部分就是說這個三大業者提出來的這個前端的這個設置的這個費用目前我們仍然還在溝通我們其實溝通不是只有我們溝通我們行政院的層級也會去做溝通就是說對於這些費用是不是能夠在在有這些評估的空間能夠在做這樣的一個空間"},{"start":19681.511,"end":19710.867,"text":"因為我想一般民眾大家也都沒辦法接受就是說這三大電線人去年其實他們已經賺了五千多億所以現在真的要他們善盡社會責任然後來針對這個部分對提出他們的這個應該是要對詐騙集團的防詐的業務對政府提供一些協助的時候然後他們又用這麼高的金額兩年加起來已經大概可能要九十幾億九十幾億的經費來建置這樣的設備我覺得這個太不合理了"},{"start":19711.507,"end":19728.502,"text":"對,這個部分我們會再加強來做一個溝通。來,李委員。好,那這樣,還有沒有?還有沒有委員?沒有,那我們協商。"},{"start":19739.684,"end":19762.466,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":19765.094,"end":19783.003,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":19786.946,"end":19805.672,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":19813.979,"end":19826.306,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":19842.722,"end":19857.258,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":19863.275,"end":19888.124,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分。"},{"start":19893.336,"end":19901.768,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":19903.426,"end":19923.136,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":19926.118,"end":19938.08,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":19940.246,"end":19955.291,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":19956.451,"end":19973.611,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":19979.683,"end":20008.262,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20009.343,"end":20025.521,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20043.234,"end":20058.27,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20059.571,"end":20087.307,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分"},{"start":20089.673,"end":20114.661,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20116.728,"end":20144.298,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20145.878,"end":20161.397,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20163.559,"end":20190.232,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20191.612,"end":20216.607,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20217.887,"end":20235.838,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20236.758,"end":20252.499,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20254.497,"end":20282.092,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20284.263,"end":20307.318,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20307.878,"end":20331.035,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20339.78,"end":20361.489,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20363.631,"end":20378.442,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":20379.182,"end":20403.367,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20405.628,"end":20428.741,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20429.562,"end":20437.699,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20442.964,"end":20464.251,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20464.531,"end":20483.569,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20487.371,"end":20491.794,"text":"第6目整目凍結一千萬所有委員案子並案處理經書面報告同意後可動之第105案"},{"start":20513.703,"end":20519.028,"text":"跟107、108、109案這幾個案我們就是特別處理我們凍結2億然後送協商凍結2億啊對啊凍結2億嘛對啊"},{"start":20552.475,"end":20563.338,"text":"好了就這樣啦可以啦齁可以啦技術上可行啦技術上可行啦好技術上可以好OK我們就這樣好不好好謝謝那我們再來"},{"start":20564.875,"end":20566.456,"text":"第7目137、138、139、140改組決議136"},{"start":20581.916,"end":20598.081,"text":"來,說明一下,包括對於警專的這個冷氣的一個裝飾,目前警專的一個宿舍的英才樓跟三民樓都已經發包開工,預計在明年的114年的3月會完工。這以上的報告。好,那我改組決議。來,第8幕。"},{"start":20602.857,"end":20608.682,"text":"來第八目我跟你講我先告一下142、147齁這我們就是禮拜三處理齁然後141、144、145改組決議剩143、146143就牛委員啦喔你改組決議齁好"},{"start":20634.414,"end":20657.985,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":20659.79,"end":20664.219,"text":"所以警政署他們有沒有基金?沒有齁?好什麼東西?"},{"start":20673.899,"end":20678.042,"text":"警政署就這樣子我們剛剛說在業務裡面處理我們就不再處理了我們現在消防署"},{"start":20723.312,"end":20728.056,"text":"好 我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":20737.5,"end":20761.369,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金。"},{"start":20762.449,"end":20777.704,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20780.346,"end":20802.024,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":20804.546,"end":20815.851,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20832.941,"end":20839.49,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":20846.929,"end":20871.45,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管理署部分關於內政部國土管"},{"start":20874.165,"end":20877.586,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":20892.083,"end":20919.179,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。八、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20920.52,"end":20938.37,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":20944.77,"end":20971.257,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、警政署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署部分。二、繼續"},{"start":20973.703,"end":21002.928,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。"},{"start":21003.712,"end":21030.602,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續"},{"start":21036.681,"end":21057.588,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":21068.88,"end":21083.231,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。"},{"start":21084.972,"end":21106.586,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分。"},{"start":21108.217,"end":21119.171,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":21123.268,"end":21137.103,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":21140.15,"end":21161.32,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":21168.115,"end":21189.968,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":21191.409,"end":21214.92,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":21215.52,"end":21243.063,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":21248.706,"end":21271.201,"text":"我們開始開會消防稅數部分沒有提案我們直接進入第一幕第三案、第九案、測案然後16、80、11改組決議我們剩下2、4、5、7、11之一各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":21281.584,"end":21282.124,"text":"來,各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":21317.767,"end":21328.494,"text":"沒有人要講沒有意見喔不是啦有沒有人要講啊我會議要進行啊"},{"start":21334.083,"end":21336.566,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":21349.799,"end":21372.354,"text":"消防署及所屬預算案第一幕一般行政基本行政工作維持的業務費今年編列4062萬有一個新聞是113年11月13號桃園市消防局第四大隊龍潭義消分隊有一位40歲的范姓義消小隊長他在平政執勤的時候有遇到這個蜜蜂把他折"},{"start":21373.695,"end":21382.884,"text":"第1屆第2會期內政委員會第1屆第2會期內政委員會第1屆第2會期內政委員會第1屆第2會期內政委員會第1屆第2會期內政委員會第1屆第2會期內政委員會第1屆第2會期內政委員會第1屆第2會期內政委員會"},{"start":21389.731,"end":21403.278,"text":"7年已經過去而還是有發生異消偶惑警消因為捕蜂來殉職所以請消防署會同農業部針對這種捕蜂捉蛇的業務職責的歸屬人員訓練跟設備器材應該提出檢討所以徐新英委員我是連署的我們有提議是不是凍結預算"},{"start":21412.242,"end":21433.408,"text":"50%因為每一個消防或疫消的訊值對我們來講都是沉痛非常沉痛的就請消防署提出相應的業務的提出檢討改善方案而且要公布在官方網站及臉書後以及對內政委員會提出專案報告後同意使得動之以上"},{"start":21436.276,"end":21456.18,"text":"來 漢邦委員來 徐委員我想本席3、4、5那3好像已經撤案那4跟5的話第4個反正上面也有說明剛剛張委員也講了我特別補充第5點第5點我想消防署應該很清楚就是說對於這個是這個案"},{"start":21464.775,"end":21465.475,"text":"韓某委員沒有了說明一下"},{"start":21484.539,"end":21500.486,"text":"感謝委員吹詢。捕風捉蛇事實上現在都由農業單位在招標。桃園這個事件是農業局招標給民眾,逸銷去承接。那我們也跟桃園縣還是,如果現在既然已經編預算還是回歸到"},{"start":21502.227,"end":21508.113,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":21524.595,"end":21526.598,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":21543.055,"end":21569.021,"text":"就是特別是第4案第4案我想署長很清楚就是在消防機關隊員定期請調作業規定中有特別規定就是說在消防人員裡面有子女重大傷亡重大傷病身心障礙還有子女就讀特殊學校需就近照顧者或者是夫妻離異或配偶"},{"start":21570.182,"end":21593.336,"text":"配偶亡故需照顧國中學齡以下子女,欲有三個以上國中學齡以下子女需就近照顧等情勢。就說在你們的消防人員裡面有這些情況的可以優先請掉戶籍所在地的規定但是好像漏掉了,漏掉了如果是"},{"start":21594.463,"end":21607.426,"text":"總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金�"},{"start":21623.37,"end":21623.51,"text":"阿賴章偉"},{"start":21649.178,"end":21665.109,"text":"好那我不好意思謝謝主席那我提出第7案跟第9案那第7案就是水電費的部分水電費的部分有這個111年到113年的時候都只兼列這個大概"},{"start":21667.07,"end":21691.288,"text":"7百多萬114年增加到900多萬增加幅度高達15%稍微說明一下就好我們比較想要討論的是第9案第9案就是說一般行政費用的部分在112年一般行政有一些基本行政費用比如說一般公務的運刷、環境佈置、清潔、健康檢查跟新聞聯絡等雜項支出"},{"start":21693.529,"end":21700.351,"text":"在112年跟113年的時候都只有別1300多萬左右可是為什麼114年要增加50%的預算增加到2013萬我們覺得這個是有一點增加幅度過大所以我們提出應該凍結該預算20萬請一個月內提出書面報告後經同意時的動之以上"},{"start":21722.733,"end":21730.056,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。七、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":21744.062,"end":21756.374,"text":"內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬．營建設基金。"},{"start":21765.542,"end":21771.043,"text":"111年水電費3.16元112年3.99元113年4.56元總經費111年227萬112年202萬今年208萬即便我們遇到冬天有四個颱風但還是在目前這個狀況預期明年的水電費還是會再提升"},{"start":21793.228,"end":21819.457,"text":"目前我們今年的額度我們已經不夠了就目前編列額度是不夠所以我們把需求狀況跟委員做一個報告跟處理跟回報那至於整個業務費這個部分會增加事實上就是配合整個政策我們在司機公有退休以後我們就沒有再臨用我們用月評估的方式來做這方面的執行那另外另外就是還有還有一個"},{"start":21820.87,"end":21831.469,"text":"還有我們正在新建的規劃當中的滑光特新的聽色的建築這個規劃費用那這個部分是我們在這方面規劃裡面所需要的費用。謝謝"},{"start":21835.406,"end":21860.388,"text":"不好意思請你再解釋一下我聽不太清楚第一個您說什麼人員增加因為我們人員駕駛退休以後駕駛退休以後我們就沒辦法再補人所以用聘僱的方式來擔任我們的司機的一個任務駕駛退休原本的駕駛不就在這個應班行政的費用為什麼會增加是有多聘駕駛駛的人事費用我們就不編的就是用約聘僱的方式來處理這個區塊"},{"start":21862.329,"end":21866.11,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":21892.638,"end":21898.6,"text":"是,好,好,謝謝。來,還有沒有委員?那沒有我們協商。"},{"start":21926.561,"end":21955.498,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":21959.633,"end":21979.896,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":22000.333,"end":22020.616,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分"},{"start":22022.108,"end":22049.542,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":22057.5,"end":22086.136,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":22091.015,"end":22119.201,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分"},{"start":22122.21,"end":22149.945,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分"},{"start":22152.398,"end":22165.81,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":22168.438,"end":22187.771,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":22190.52,"end":22215.445,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。六、繼續"},{"start":22216.802,"end":22236.834,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署及所屬、消防署部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、消防署部分。"},{"start":22243.22,"end":22254.087,"text":"好,我們第一幕整幕凍結兩百萬所有人案子並案處理,然後經書面報告同意後四個通知。好,來再來第二幕。"},{"start":22257.359,"end":22259.58,"text":"12案不處理3、2、3、5、3、7、5、8、測案13、14、15、18、20、24、26、27、28、29、33、34、38、41、42、43、44、45、46、47"},{"start":22288.033,"end":22305.263,"text":"4849、50、52、53、55、56、57、60、63、64、65、66、67、68改組決議。但其他還是有很多案我就不一一說了。來,各位委員有沒有什麼意見?好,你有沒有人?謝謝主席喔"},{"start":22307.28,"end":22333.55,"text":"這個首先是第21案雖然是相關的一些法令研討不過我要藉這個機會跟消防署請教一下這個我國消防的人事制度一直都是所謂的雙軌制那雙軌制其實這個當然又好又壞當然可能更一地制宜一些但同時當然從中央的指揮調度的角度來講也造成一些若干的困擾那麼我希望這件事情可以有一個更合理的討論希望消防署針對人事制度改進提一些相關的一些辦法"},{"start":22334.55,"end":22337.952,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":22352.419,"end":22369.534,"text":"我們也跟考學院在討論就是怎麼讓權力保障優先擺在前面不能因為制度的改變然後影響到他的收入保障福利這方面的區塊那目前我們會用警消的制度大概警消分立的時候考學院特別建議這個作業"},{"start":22370.695,"end":22392.063,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管"},{"start":22401.121,"end":22402.984,"text":"這個影響層面蠻大的影響層面蠻大的跟委員回報這個"},{"start":22406.676,"end":22435.601,"text":"這個我們待會商量一下看怎麼處理但我希望可以看到說這個部裡面也好或者是消防署裡面對於這樣的人事制度的一些改變有一些比較積極的一些主張或者是想法好不好這部分我們待會協商的時候我們來做一下討論第二十二案媒體宣導費的部分這比起剛剛的警察你們這個額度屬於非常合理但是這個本席還是要特別講一下比如說我們這個前一段時間我們才剛剛修正通過消防法請問你們的媒體宣導裡面有沒有包含一些新法上路一些規則的差異的一些說明這部分是不是請署長現在先回答一下"},{"start":22436.141,"end":22462.923,"text":"是 感謝委員新法修正以後我們特別透過我們的宣導會議到工業區這方面配合主管部會來做這個宣導那這個經費是針對委員會這邊上個委員有特別提到訓練中心的招生的一個招生的需求因為我們現在在接下來年度特考班我們1000位那正期班會有400位所以我們特別針對招生的區塊來做這方面的一個提列"},{"start":22463.363,"end":22486.155,"text":"對阿除了招生之外我也要講因為前一陣子就有出現到底消防法要幾年後上路這個問題嘛對不對這顯然是沒有說清楚啦你們應該是你們總會真的是五年後才要執行吧應該不是這樣對不對但是應該要說清楚我的意思是說竟然都有一定的媒體宣導的這個業務消防法新修正之後的一些新的概念新的觀念什麼時候上路這些東西要有一個清楚明白的說明好這一部分我們把它併在"},{"start":22486.975,"end":22514.46,"text":"並在這個組決議的內容裡面好不好22我們就改組決議希望你在內容上面要針對新舊法的這個差異要做清楚的宣導避免人民的這個誤會23案的部分是這個消防安全衛生講習這個也是因應新法上路那我想要請問一下這個現在署長現在哪一些消防人員的職安問題是優先要解決的你有沒有心裡有沒有數要不要跟大家說明一下"},{"start":22517.113,"end":22542.451,"text":"好,感謝委員垂詢。報告召委,我們是不是要繼續發言?是,那個職安的部分,我們今年消防法修正過以後,我們有中程計畫。所以明年1月份開始,會用PMO的團隊,來每一個縣市搭配的團隊,來針對消防員執勤、扶勤跟危險的工作場所這方面的情形。那也列入我們身體檢查的費用,我們列了1500萬的經費,讓縣市消防人員可以做這方面的身體檢查。"},{"start":22546.514,"end":22551.618,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、消防署部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":22565.729,"end":22592.371,"text":"因為我們要知道大概哪一些治安問題是要優先處理的嘛我們才會這個政策執行的方向才會比較清楚因為你現在這個我們現在新的消防法規定要設立安全衛生的專責單位還有所謂的專責人員這些東西的一些進度還有地方的組織調整跟人力徵取去成立專責單位的部分我們希望有一個非常清楚的期程的說明當我們商量一個主要的期程有明確之後我們這邊我們也可以開組決議就算我都不會太為難這個消防弟兄的預算"},{"start":22593.172,"end":22614.499,"text":"三十一案,但我們每一案都有一些問題想要做一些釐清。三十一案是有關於民間自主緊急應變中隊。這樣子一個中隊本來是希望民間自主有防災的觀念,所以在災害的第一時間發生之後可以反應。這個概念當然是非常正確的,但是我想要問,我們花了非常多的錢去協助這件事情,然後去做這件事情,那我想問,真正當這個"},{"start":22616.52,"end":22635.748,"text":"災害發生的時候這個TCERT這樣的計畫是只有純粹訓練讓民間就去提升然後他們自己想辦法處理還是說因為我政府有投入了一定的預算去培訓去訓練以及等等在救災的時候他可以提供具體的資源他如果可以的話那請問他的這個指揮的SOP是什麼"},{"start":22636.388,"end":22661.97,"text":"因為現在看起來沒有相關的一個法令是說比如說你消防署可以去指揮指揮這樣子的這樣子的一群人去做處理那是不是既然我們都花錢去培養這一群人去訓練這一群人那是不是相關來講說在救災的時候我也要有一套所謂的指揮系統讓他可以來協助這個災害的搶救那麼這一套的系統什麼時候才可以明確的建立出來這我們希望可以聽到消防署一定的說明是不是請署長說明一下好感謝委員在聽等一下"},{"start":22666.034,"end":22688.994,"text":"那我把最後一個問題問完最後一個是36案因為我這個完了就結束了這個是火災預防的管理工作因為我們有收到這個吹哨者有指控這個消防安全中心的基金會他違反了火警探測器的任何基準也就是說他並沒有按照SOP去做審查然後造成變相幫廠商放水然後甚至有試驗記錄被篡改這樣子一個指控那"},{"start":22689.835,"end":22712.65,"text":"而且很難過的是吹哨子還被免職在消安會裡面看不過去竟然被免職蠻奇怪的消防署有來說明也承認檢測方法未依程序執行那消安會暫時也被停權那麼這件事情的調查結果出來之前那我想可能這個預算要做部分的凍結這個待會之後大家再做一下說明大家再做一下討論不好意思耽誤大家時間謝謝那個蘇委員"},{"start":22715.226,"end":22729.786,"text":"我的比較簡單因為其他都溝通過了我們就第30案這邊等一下還是請署長稍微說明一下目前的進度到哪裡以至於未來提書面報告的時候我可以做個比較我的這個案子其實就是"},{"start":22730.246,"end":22754.975,"text":"在這個直轄市縣市消防車輛裝備及人力配置標準的這個部分我們在質詢的時候也認為說消防車和救災車不一樣那每一個縣市直轄市非直轄市也又不一樣那在這樣的狀況下有沒有認為是什麼樣的狀況會比較精準適合應該有一個標準而不是只有現在當然現在已經進步了現在有補助縣市去採採購"},{"start":22756.516,"end":22762.361,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":22776.512,"end":22797.799,"text":"徐委員謝謝主席本席大概針對提案的部分消防署都有來做過溝通所以大部分都是測案或是改成主決議那現在就只剩幾個案子要跟消防署這邊來請教一下就是說第54案因為這個有關加強救災救護工作的分支計劃那針對這個部分的話我們編列的這個經費呢54案是"},{"start":22805.643,"end":22826.477,"text":"一千三百四十二萬三千元那較這個113年度大概增加了2.5倍那消防署那時候的說明是這個是依據任性國家醫療整備計畫這是配合這個衛福部那既然是衛福部的計畫為什麼我們還要編列一千三百多萬那到底這筆錢是怎麼用"},{"start":22826.997,"end":22828.458,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":22857.417,"end":22866.383,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．"},{"start":22887.337,"end":22908.718,"text":"的中程計劃。那因為這個採購的項目的非常多那我們這邊也缺乏了細部的說明到底要採購哪些設備採購的必要性是什麼要怎麼使用買了能夠達成什麼樣的效果這個部分我想這都要請這個我們的這個消防署能夠做充分的說明那尤其是今年度只要談到韌性"},{"start":22910.319,"end":22934.227,"text":"預算都比去年多很多那在消防署的部分都說是要強化救災能量那當然這個部分以前臺灣也有很難道就沒有災難嗎為什麼今年預知明年的災難會特別多那尤其是發生了這個現在是超過2.5倍的經費所以到底消防署針對這部分多變成這麼多的經費要救災到底是要用在什麼地方"},{"start":22934.907,"end":22946.11,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營"},{"start":22964.69,"end":22981.919,"text":"原鄉部落救災怎麼樣可以改善不要說消防車水線無法步達讓火勢蔓延那像新竹縣就發生過29小時的燃燒才能合力撲滅所以這個部分本席"},{"start":22983.78,"end":22999.255,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營"},{"start":23008.503,"end":23021.495,"text":"消防署有提報智慧科技消防全民救災整備研發計劃我們看不到明確的計劃內容還有預期效益評估以及預估訓練人次"},{"start":23023.337,"end":23042.613,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金�"},{"start":23055.684,"end":23079.595,"text":"好謝謝主席部長署長那我要提的是這個第17案因為今天剛好消防署有一個新聞稿指出在這10年來有國內有28個消防人員殉職那尤其九層大概25名消防員都是葬身火場那我們第一線的消防人員非常的辛苦所以人力不足預算不足裝備不足是我們常常討論的議題所以我們"},{"start":23081.096,"end":23094.932,"text":"基本上我們都支持消防署的所有的預算可是我們這邊要提的是說在第17案的時候是麥玉珍委員的提案他針對114年消防署第二幕的消防救災作業業務的這個一年編列了3億7千9百77萬"},{"start":23099.998,"end":23120.531,"text":"主要是要建構消防人員工作安全衛生作業中程計劃等等這些東西可是我們現在消防工作全域促進會有特別在反映是不是因為人力不足的關係救災的加班時數因為人力不足沒有辦法實際補休而且它的有效的時間"},{"start":23121.812,"end":23145.8,"text":"只有兩年兩年沒有修完就歸零的限制所以第一個加班時間是不是都可以報那如果報加班時間沒有辦法補修的話兩年內就沒有未修完歸零然後加班費如果要換成加班費也有上限的金額必要就變成我們所有基層的消防人員那麼辛苦的加班沒有辦法領到錢或是沒有辦法修完會歸零的一個狀況"},{"start":23148.021,"end":23167.751,"text":"部分縣市消防人員的訓練採用自己請假的方式訓練是消防的必要工作自己請假沒有當成加班是否增加消防人員過勞的實質風險真的是有疑問所以我們都很關心消防人員的問題針對消防人員的設備構置長期身體身體身心靈"},{"start":23172.814,"end":23194.504,"text":"的一些狀況,我們覺得有檢討的空間。所以請消防署定定短、中、長期的措施,以及針對消防能力不足要理定輔導方案,而且要對自己自駕消防訓練明定明確的標準及限制,來建構完整的消防人員身心靈的健康。所以,剛剛脈力政委員有跟我討論,本來他要凍結10%,改成凍結"},{"start":23198.206,"end":23205.73,"text":"500萬,請消防署及所屬單位在一個月內向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告經同意後,使得動之。"},{"start":23213.683,"end":23236.828,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管"},{"start":23242.409,"end":23261.581,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所屬、移民署及所�"},{"start":23272.068,"end":23279.56,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、移民署部分關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、移民署部分"},{"start":23287.423,"end":23314.963,"text":"來,漢茂委員,沒了話請說明。好,感謝趙委員跟各位委員垂詢。對於剛才第一案提出,就是我們指揮系統,T-SERV指揮系統,事實上在訓練過程當中,這個是重要的項目。包括後勤怎麼應用,包括怎麼救災基本能量,主要是自保自救、互救這個能量。所以目前的能量大概有達到這個程度,那明年甚至還會再進一階做訓練,這個是我們中心計畫的一個精神。"},{"start":23315.803,"end":23342.234,"text":"期待的是主要的場所包括CI的這些場所都是我們所著重重點期待委員能夠支持目前已經在執行那今年已經有90對那明年會繼續再擴大這樣的一個訓練能量那剛才委員垂詢的那個基金會這個案子我們已經送到聯證署所以我想這個就不要我們就在公開場所就不要特別來做一個報告已經送到聯證署來做"},{"start":23343.574,"end":23365.379,"text":"進一步的一個調查。那委員隨選的車輛裝備器材這個部分已經納入我們整體的一個規劃所以今年的計劃裡面有個高科技廠房的救災的一個裝備器材也是基於這樣的一個場所就是這些場所有特殊性所以它的裝備器材有它的特殊需求那期待委員能夠支持我們的科學園區的這個計劃還有化學工業"},{"start":23367.919,"end":23372.38,"text":"建設基金．營建建設基金．營建建設基金．營建建設基金．營建建設基金．營建建設基金．營建建設基金．營建建設基金．營建建設基金．"},{"start":23394.627,"end":23396.469,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":23411.847,"end":23431.695,"text":"是不是容許我們在我們在12案、第69案、第70案明天的報告裡面我們會詳細把我們的通訊的需求、備用的需求備份的需求這個部分明天禮拜三的專案匯報匯報裡面我們會跟委員會來做一個提報那另外在"},{"start":23434.744,"end":23454.966,"text":"我們在委員關心的那個計畫沒有上傳我們在今年8月30號已經報到大院裡面來做審查那如果說委員需要的話我們等一下會後馬上呈給委員來做這方計畫內容的評估內容的一個參考指教這個我們都依照程序來做這方面的一個處理"},{"start":23456.587,"end":23475.682,"text":"至於我們在短中長期針對於人力的部署、裝備器材的部署、身心靈、勤務的部分跟委員報告我們這個禮拜25號會召開全國的一個工作的一個檢討會議就是縣市執行完以後當然勤務狀況到底有哪些問題包括"},{"start":23477.043,"end":23479.126,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府作業基金．營建建設基金．營建設基金"},{"start":23492.505,"end":23515.313,"text":"這是我們在整個我們現在禽秀狀況的處理狀況那前面有報告就是我們消防人力的補充今年很順利的我們有940位通過今年的特考明年1月份會進來受訓那後年的1月份會畢業那目前一測通過以後二測再進來目前是還有820位所以在後年的1月我們會有820位預計啦"},{"start":23517.074,"end":23520.336,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":23537.465,"end":23556.178,"text":"會進步到縣市執行當中。所以部長特別關心我們應該在116年、117年以後這個人力量會逐步到位那剛才跟委員報告就是信中對招生這方面的宣傳跟說明我們期待說兩個部分的一個搭配"},{"start":23556.858,"end":23560.181,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":23588.872,"end":23600.342,"text":"好 謝謝所以剛剛署長很感謝署長的這個這個說明那我請教一下就是因為現在目前是因為這個很多消防員因為人力不足沒有實際補沒有辦法實際補修所以"},{"start":23603.625,"end":23629.454,"text":"這個署長意思是說因為未來人人員會慢慢充沛嗎所以這個點會慢慢減少那我想要請教的是是不是有這些沒有辦法補修的時效有兩年沒有修完要歸零的情況有現在有這樣的情況嗎那如果要歸零的話呢一般來講的話是不是說應該要改成加班費可是加班費又有上限所以變成說到最後這些消防同仁是不是就沒辦法修完的又沒辦法領錢又有"},{"start":23630.194,"end":23656.654,"text":"有這個上限的問題以及還有一個問題說就我知道你們你署長剛有提說未來會檢討嗎那這兩個問題是不是存在另外一個就是說消防人員現在是不是有採自駕的方自己自駕式的方式就是說自己訓練沒有辦法報報加班的方式是否有這樣的情形那未來有沒有有沒有一個一個輔導方案輔助方案我這三這三點可不可以再幫我稍微解釋一下謝謝"},{"start":23658.407,"end":23675.564,"text":"好,感謝委員垂詢規定的部分跟自駕受訓的部分應該這個是少數的狀況我們在這次檢討會議裡面會列出來然後會正式列入會議的決議讓縣市在執行上面加班費有上限嗎?加班費我們是19000目前是每個月的加班費上限"},{"start":23676.044,"end":23696.217,"text":"那如果說是因為剛才有報告過就是超過19000跟加班時間這兩條路一個是補休一個是給超勤的費用那目前有的縣市在檢討說是不是要給超勤的費用目前這個還沒有定案那有的縣市是已經列入他的年度預算我想這個部分就是我們會持續滾動檢討這也為什麼我們最近會召開會議來針對於超勤的問題時數的問題做整個來做檢討"},{"start":23703.342,"end":23732.421,"text":"好 謝謝署長謝謝署長的說明非常清楚那是不是說你們下因為這個問題我想很多委員都很關心了那既然預算我相信我們一定會給你們足夠的預算那是不是說你們下次檢討報告完了以後書面報告可以提供我們每位委員一份讓我們了解大概整個情況好不好感謝委員好 謝謝還有沒有委員沒有的話我們欸 你要欸 剛剛署長爸爸還好我知道我知道許委員還好"},{"start":23733.888,"end":23757.076,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營業部分關於內政"},{"start":23763.401,"end":23777.727,"text":"還有59案59案是針對於通訊備援備份這個部分跟委員報告就是委員後庭會召開那個機密會議的部分這部分我們再做一個說明跟提報委員不好意思"},{"start":23790.779,"end":23812.54,"text":"徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員,您有沒有要回答?徐議員"},{"start":23816.055,"end":23823.939,"text":"提供資料的部分我們在8月30號已經有函報給立法院我會等一下馬上給委員來做一個審閱是19案跟61案是61案這個剛才就是我們等一下馬上提給委員我們8月30號提到我們大會裡面來處理"},{"start":23840.875,"end":23861.953,"text":"19案是偏鄉19案我們在原住民地區我們執行一個整備的指導計畫目前都一直在執行當中而且每一年的訓練還有宣導還有我們裝備器材的輔助這個都有逐年那些執行狀況我們可以提給委員來做一個審閱就問題回答就好了"},{"start":23863.133,"end":23874.957,"text":"四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、警政署部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":23889.147,"end":23889.888,"text":"那61案這個是直接給委員嗎?"},{"start":24739.278,"end":24741.153,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員會"},{"start":24742.714,"end":24767.019,"text":"那跟大家報告一下我先那個還有21、23、25、36、39改組決議那我們整目凍結700所有委員的案子並按處理然後呢在校會期這個業務報告的時候並專案報告一起處理好"},{"start":24770.14,"end":24793.847,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。六、繼續審查114年度中�"},{"start":24795.31,"end":24797.972,"text":"73案一樣是禮拜三處理。然後,74、75、76、77、78、79、80、81、83改組決議。好,剩82案。"},{"start":24812.813,"end":24825.909,"text":"對,針對這一個82部分是強化特種搜救任務的分支計劃那一般的事務費是編列1957萬比今年度985萬大概多了一倍"},{"start":24826.61,"end":24843.021,"text":"那消防署的說明是說這個費用是新編列是要聘請國際通過聯合國重型搜救隊的認證的隊伍或者是美國的搜救隊的專業教官來台所以美國教育的專業的教官來台的話培訓費用大概是872萬6千"},{"start":24845.302,"end":24849.405,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":24867.537,"end":24869.318,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":24904.943,"end":24925.94,"text":"這個科目事實上有幾筆經費跟委員報告一下就是我們現在正在進行北中南東的重型備援參觀的建設包括在花蓮、新北、薰陵中心還有屏東這個案子是逐步在執行當中那另外還有特授隊的職安這個部分也是包括在這個科目裡面"},{"start":24926.52,"end":24948.389,"text":"當然剛才委員垂詢就是說特收隊的國際能量事實上目前我們還是還不是國際認證的特收隊所以我們本國自認為是夠但事實上需要國際上認證過的隊伍來幫我們做協助處理那目前我們比較缺的就是後勤指揮管理這個區塊我們還是有不足的地方"},{"start":24949.009,"end":24977.806,"text":"所以不斷地要國際隊伍來事實上不是只有針對消防署事實上縣市也一起來學習是有三個部份的經會才會有這個增加的一個情形跟我們報告那剛剛請教您的就是臺北、新北、高雄、臺南這些經過聯合國的認證的這個搜救隊伍是不是就是所謂的國際合格的教官呢?這就是台灣NAP認證的所以臺北是國際合格的教官就對了所以這個部分是我們接下來要努力的地方好"},{"start":24978.346,"end":24996.395,"text":"瞭解是,謝謝委員所以,師父委員可以不要請你只剩,只剩徐岳維你這一案還是改組決議來,我們協商一下趕快去跟徐岳維拜託"},{"start":25152.014,"end":25169.262,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金。"},{"start":25183.426,"end":25204.058,"text":"來,96案是徐昭偉你的。我不知道,來你們說明一下,剩兩案。感謝委員的垂詢,那91案的部分,目前防火站,你是不是要照案處理,或是要文字修正,你直接說。好,91案我們建議說,"},{"start":25206.219,"end":25228.827,"text":"現在你處理96案是不是容許因為我們現在已經在3月中旬計劃正在執行是不是容許這些書面報告的資料我們在3月裡面來提報我們針對3月救援目前好幾個區塊同步在執行今年已經有很大的突破明年應該有更大的突破的空間是不是容許不是嘛你就要召喚通過你就召喚通過就好了"},{"start":25229.927,"end":25240.238,"text":"文字修正你修正哪裡就是最後一段宣導、教育、救護等事項於三個月內提送書面包括資料予內政委員會"},{"start":25242.336,"end":25261.996,"text":"九十一案是不是最後一段就是並維持各地防台訓練?這個部分是不是容許刪掉?因為我們在網站上的宣導跟災管的一點通這些宣導資料都同步在進行那防台訓練是不是容許不要列進去?"},{"start":25264.195,"end":25284.321,"text":"不是啦,所以你有修正是不是?文字三處建立文字三處就是並維持各地方台訓練我看一下,你等我我看並維持各地方台訓練"},{"start":25287.574,"end":25288.415,"text":"並維持各地防台訓練這幾個字。"},{"start":25317.516,"end":25321.618,"text":"114年度內政部國土署及所屬預算協商結論"},{"start":25340.74,"end":25366.878,"text":"稅出部分第二項第一案凍結兩百萬元書面報告經同意後使得通知第二案凍結一百三十四萬兩千元經書面報告後使得通知第一幕預算照列第二幕第三五六案改組決議第四案不予處理預算照列第三幕國土管理業務"},{"start":25368.666,"end":25398.224,"text":"第七案、第九案、測案。第二十一、二十五、三十、三十一、三十四、三十五、三十三十六、三十七並三十五案。三十九、四十、四十二、四十三、四十四、四十五案改組決議。其議委員提案合併處理凍結九千九百萬元其中第"},{"start":25400.055,"end":25427.058,"text":"實案11、12、15、23、24、26、27與社會住宅配套政策相關提案經專案報告經同意後始的動之其餘採取其餘從書面報告後始的動之。第四目第50、51案不予處理預算照列。第五目、第六目預算照列。第七目"},{"start":25428.396,"end":25445.069,"text":"第54、55、56、57改組決議其餘委員提案合併處理凍結1000萬元向本會提出書面報告經同意厚實的動之。第8目下水道管理業務第76、77、78、79、80、81、82、83改組決議預算照列。主決議"},{"start":25456.344,"end":25480.311,"text":"85、86、87、88、89案修正文字通過。84案照案通過。114年度內政部警政署及所屬預算協商結論稅務部分預算照列稅務部分第三項第一、二案不予處理第一目一般行政第三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十案改組決議預算照列"},{"start":25483.444,"end":25485.285,"text":"第二、第15、18、27、40、42、63案保留。第47、49、51、57、58、59、60、61案測案。第12、14、16、17、19、20、22、23、24、26、28、29、31、37、39、41、46、50、52、53、55案改組決議。"},{"start":25512.037,"end":25524.008,"text":"7月委員提案合併處理凍結500萬元向本會提出書面報告經同意後使得凍資。第三目警務管理第71案測案第65、66、67、68、69、70、72、73、74、75、76改組決議預算照列"},{"start":25534.875,"end":25540.656,"text":"第4目保安警察業務第77、81、83、84、85案保留第78、79、80、85至1改組決議第5目國道警察業務第86、87、88改組決議預算照列第6目刑事警察業務"},{"start":25561.567,"end":25562.608,"text":"第98、114、117、118、125、126、127、128、129、130、131、132、133、134策案。第93、94、95、96、97、103、106、110、1213、115、121、122、123、135改組決議。"},{"start":25586.368,"end":25608.822,"text":"其餘委員提案105、107、108、109並按凍結兩億保留協商。其餘委員提案合併處理凍結一千萬元向本會提出書面報告經同意後使者動之。第七目初級警察教育第136、137、138、139、140改組決議預算照列。第八目一般建築及設備"},{"start":25616.516,"end":25632.97,"text":"第一百四十二、一百四十七案保留。第一百四十一、一百四十三、一百四十四、一百四十五案改組決議。一百四十六案不予處理。第九目第一備軍預算照列。組決議第一百四十八案修正文字通過。第一百四十九案照案通過。"},{"start":25640.443,"end":25659.322,"text":"114年度內政部消防署及所屬預算寫章結論稅務部分預算照列稅務部分第一幕第三、第九案測案第一、六、八、十、十一案改組決議企業委員提案合併處理凍結兩百萬元向本會提出書面報告經同意後使得凍資"},{"start":25662.162,"end":25665.304,"text":"第二幕消防救災業務第12案保留第32、35、37、58案測案第13、14、15、18、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29"},{"start":25681.269,"end":25685.591,"text":"33、34、36、38、39、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、50、52、53、55、56、57、60、63、64、65、66、67、68改組決議。區議員提案合併處理,凍結700萬元。向本會提出專案報告,經同意後,使得凍資。"},{"start":25709.349,"end":25726.224,"text":"第三目港務消防業務第69案保留第71、72案撤案第70案改組決議第四目特種搜救業務第73案保留74、75、76、77、78、79、80、81、82、83改組決議第五目一般建築及設備第六目第一倍計預算照列組決議"},{"start":25736.311,"end":25753.793,"text":"第88、91、95、96修正文字通過其提案照案通過。14年度內政部引述預算協商結論稅務部分預算照列稅務部分第一幕預算照列第一、二案改組決議"},{"start":25755.745,"end":25773.975,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金。"},{"start":25775.217,"end":25801.949,"text":"區域委員提案合併處理冰岸凍結1000萬元向本會提出專案報告,均同意厚實的凍資。第三目,一般建築及設備。第四目,第一備金預算照列。五組決議。營建建設基金預算。住宅基金第三、第四、第六、十二、十三案改組決議。"},{"start":25803.756,"end":25816.524,"text":"區委員提案合併處理,並按凍結9900萬元向本位提出專案報告,經同意後,使得凍資。中央都市更新基金第14、15、16、17案改組決議,預算照列。組決議第21、23、24案修正文字通過,第18、19、20、22照案通過。"},{"start":25832.83,"end":25858.358,"text":"特別收入基金部分國土永續發展基金附屬單位預算基金來源預算照列基金用途第一二案改組決議預算照列第三案修正文字通過主決議第三案修正文字通過新住民發展基金附屬單位預算基金來源預算照列基金用途第一二案改組決議預算照列宣讀完畢好"},{"start":25864.322,"end":25883.135,"text":"請問各位委員,有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的寫章結論通過,沒有提案的部分預算均照列,請問有異議?好,沒有異議。本次通過是決議,文字授權主席及議事人員整理。然後,審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國土管理署"},{"start":25884.486,"end":25900.404,"text":"及所屬、移民署部分審查完略、領據審查報告含附財政委員會提報院會。四、114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分"},{"start":25901.505,"end":25915.161,"text":"部分關於內政部主管作業基金．營建建設基金審查文件．領遵審查報告含附財政委員會提報院會。114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":25917.383,"end":25939.522,"text":"預算非營業部分關於內政部主管特別收入基金．新住民發展基金．國土永續發展基金以審查完均．擬均審查報告含附財政委員會提報院會。有關警政署消防署114年度涉及機密部分．113年12月25號星期三上午9點到11點審查。"},{"start":25945.329,"end":25953.18,"text":"好 那我們本日議程處理至此 現在休息 我們星期三繼續開會我剛講涉及機密部分"}]}},{"id":"16409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16409","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcf4489611fe8f3d290f9a65472a0a5ac36d1319bf84c91682c812640863946f975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。\n二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-23T08:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-23T12:29:00+08:00","duration":14294,"影片長度":"03:58:14","委員發言時間":"08:30:46 - 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務人力發展學院稅出預算51案至56案針對第二幕訓練輔導及研究51案凍結一百萬元委員無私要等提案。52案第二幕向下零二訓練輔導行政維持中用費之水電費檢列"},{"start":2556.589,"end":2575.644,"text":"三萬七千元維吾爾小林等提案五十三案零三人力資源研究發展中業務費資訊服務費結列二百一十二萬五千元凍結五十萬元維吾爾小林等提案五十四案零三中設備及投資資訊軟硬體設備費結列七十六萬四千元凍結五十萬元維吾爾小林等提案"},{"start":2576.505,"end":2597.833,"text":"五十五萬零四智慧創新人事服務中業務費資訊服務費減列十萬元,凍結三十萬元為翁賞齡等提案。五十六萬零四中設備及投資資訊軟體設備費減列三三萬五千元,凍結五十萬元為翁賞齡等提案。五十七案、五十八案分別為委員吳思瑤等委員審發會等所提主決議案,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2601.59,"end":2627.381,"text":"預算案數及所有提案均已宣讀完畢進行討論前先說明預算案的處理方式依照委員會處理預算提案的慣例稅務部分一來源別以向為單位稅務部分一機關別以目為單位分別依序進行審查各單位預算中與處理委員所提之增三提案後其餘未涉及之預算部分均以照列"},{"start":2628.001,"end":2649.246,"text":"有關政事別稅出預算隨同機關別審查結果調整預算提案經由委員會幕僚的整理已經將所有所收的委員提案彙整成預算提案本並按照預算科目製作彙整表方便各位於審查時參考請大家分別參閱提案本及彙整表進行討論"},{"start":2651.345,"end":2675.522,"text":"另外,特別提醒機關,稍後經討論決議修正制預算提案,請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後,送交主席台並均列公報記錄。審查預算過程中,如有列行幕僚與首次答覆委員問題發言時,請先自行介紹職稱、姓名、必立公報人員記錄。"},{"start":2677.128,"end":2694.441,"text":"好 那麼我們現在進行討論事項第一案繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分那麼先處理稅務部分那因為沒有委員提案我們稅務預算均照列"},{"start":2695.663,"end":2719.639,"text":"好那麼接下來呢我們再來處理稅出的提案處理前先做說明依照委員會處理預算提案之慣例按照會審表所列的預算提案順序由提案委員先就提案內容進行說明之後呢再由機關代表予以答覆然後在整目一起處理做成決議原則上我們按照慣例盡可能採取共識的方式處理"},{"start":2721.3,"end":2740.489,"text":"好那現在進行處理稅出部分請參閱提案本集會審表進行討論那我們就先看一案一案來我們先從稅出這個派員出國計畫總表這邊有黃委員國昌"},{"start":2752.437,"end":2778.569,"text":"提案人請說明人事總處過去這幾年實際上面關於有跟公務員有關係制度上面應該做的處理跟變革在我前幾次的質詢當中我講的很明白了你們表現讓人非常的失望人事長對於過去票票的事情"},{"start":2779.642,"end":2791.787,"text":"也做了一些說明你也承認了就事論事回到出國考察的預算你們今年我講的今年是2024年113年你們出國計畫編列154萬合定88人明年膨脹到191萬合定168人天增加的比例太高了"},{"start":2808.249,"end":2825.902,"text":"從你們過去出國計畫回來到底針對我國的制度有什麼樣實際上面的效果跟反饋我老實講我完全看不到那這一項191萬8千元提案簡列100萬好 那麼請機關代表說明"},{"start":2834.245,"end":2861.203,"text":"謝謝黃委員的指教我想培養我們高階文官的國際視野讓他們出去跟國外對話這是一個非常重要的一個訓練的一個途徑而且整個訓練的一個過程我們也搭配整個國家的重大政策尤其在明年我們規劃比較多的是跟人工智慧應用有關的那希望這個部分"},{"start":2863.224,"end":2882.709,"text":"麻煩委員可以支持我們就凍結少一點不要看啦事實上我覺得過去這幾年來大家出國回來寫的報告被參佐的使用率大概都有六成以上那我覺得同仁也很認真收集資料出國前的資料收集"},{"start":2883.209,"end":2883.389,"text":"請問在場委員對於"},{"start":2905.37,"end":2933.18,"text":"人事行政總處第二款第三項的出國計畫總表當中有委員提案原列數191萬8千元提案簡列100萬元請問站長其他委員有沒有表示意見來請羅委員今天除了這個人事總處的預算以外那事實上我覺得也要從總體的這個預算審查的部分來表示一點我的看法"},{"start":2934.434,"end":2946.644,"text":"那台灣第一位主張就是要修財政收支劃分法要打破中央極權又極權的不公平的現象我不知道大家知道是誰嗎"},{"start":2948.307,"end":2973.92,"text":"這第一位提出這個主張人是誰就是我們當今的賴清德總統那所以我們這個上個禮拜五立法院真的是非常愛賴清德總統所以當民進黨都背叛賴清德總統的理念的時候在野黨在上個禮拜幫忙賴清德總統實現他多年的理想跟心願通過了財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2974.56,"end":2987.041,"text":"但我覺得在野黨也不對啦為什麼因為賴清德總統雖然曾經說要修裁認收支劃分法但那時候他可能沒有想過錢從哪裡來的問題所以今天民進黨就一直挨一直挨一直挨"},{"start":2987.551,"end":2989.673,"text":"錢從哪裡來?錢從哪裡來?其實今天我們在這裡審查預算我們就是來幫民進黨找錢錢從哪裡來?當然第一個我們知道中央政府的稅收超徵每年3000億、4000億、5000億完全可以cover"},{"start":3005.431,"end":3019.602,"text":"這次財政收支劃分法關於這個中央必須要回到以前在精神之前往這個六四開的那個預算分配這以前曾經有過的一個比例我們現在是往那個方向走"},{"start":3020.262,"end":3040.216,"text":"所以3000多億我們目前超徵稅的時候是絕對能夠cover的但如果民進黨還是覺得錢不夠那更簡單因為實際上民進黨執政這8年賴清德總統應該也心中有非常多的不滿就蔡英文就浪費了8年各個部門所有的預算開綠燈愛花就花無限上綱"},{"start":3041.337,"end":3046.999,"text":"就像前面指的所謂的監察院的預算竟然可以膨脹40%但是呢廢物到一塌糊塗還可以膨脹40%所以本席在這邊非常認同我們黃國昌委員很用功他今天也看了我們人事總處的那個出國的報告就是說"},{"start":3061.323,"end":3080.989,"text":"既然民進黨這麼缺錢我們就從杜絕浪費開始所以請我們人事總處能夠把錢花在刀口上所以這個預算的簡略在我看來是讓我們人事總處能夠更精進的一個非常好的一個做法所以簡略一百萬本席表示支持那我們一起來幫民進黨找錢幫賴清德實現才化法這個"},{"start":3086.151,"end":3093.934,"text":"改革之後民進黨所擔心的財政問題就從杜絕政府浪費能夠尊潔財源開始做起。以上請莊委員"},{"start":3104.963,"end":3115.789,"text":"請問委員會因為過去在之前的審查機關預算的時候只要是出國旅費因為涉及到整個通案的處理是不是我們保留送院會協商?"},{"start":3118.334,"end":3133.781,"text":"可以啊我們反正就我覺得啦我們預算司法法制委員會審預算審到人總已經審了好幾個單位了嘛那每一個委員提案有每一個委員他的出發點他的想法他的政策立場"},{"start":3135.117,"end":3156.518,"text":"每一個委員為他自己的提案負政治責任因為我們在審預算的時候提案不管是刪減還是凍結有道理還是沒有道理全體的公民都在看如果我們的提案內容沒有辦法獲得行政機關的同意我建議就保留保留的時候到院會來處理以上"},{"start":3159.236,"end":3160.958,"text":"請問莊委員有沒有要做補充說明?第二案,沒有。好,那麼"},{"start":3176.192,"end":3193.019,"text":"第三個部分因為我們底下這個是不是都是在第一幕當中所以到二到四所以我們第三、第四一併討論現在我們先看第三案第三案有提案委員翁曉琳委員翁委員是不是要做說明"},{"start":3196.4,"end":3200.602,"text":"我這次在審查人事行政總處的預算的時候有發現人事總處在蠻多的資訊設備的經費部分大概近三年來很多的經費項目"},{"start":3218.086,"end":3234.194,"text":"跟就他的數字經費都沒有變啊然後所以在這一次的這個就我這裡的提案大部分都是針對資訊服務費的部分來進行一些小幅度的刪減"},{"start":3235.675,"end":3244.924,"text":"那麼以第三案來講這一筆經費主要是辦理檔案管理的作業項目的經費但是從110年開始到113年都是編列的是209萬而且這個歷年決標金額跟投標的廠商數"},{"start":3257.016,"end":3263.562,"text":"事實上就是到了這一兩年他的投標廠商就是左減變得都只有一家投標一家投標在這樣的一個情況之下我們認為說如果說得標廠商都是單一廠商投票而且得標金額每年都還要成長一成"},{"start":3277.194,"end":3277.454,"text":"好,以上說明。"},{"start":3302.844,"end":3321.481,"text":"好,麻煩請監管代表說明謝謝委員給我們一個說明的機會事實上這幾年整個工資一直往上調那這一個檔案管理的一個監會200多萬裡面事實上有75%就是人事費用那隨著這幾年的一個"},{"start":3322.932,"end":3350.412,"text":"的一個代議不管是政府機關或者民間代議調整事實上這一個我們是符合這樣的一個最基本的一個需求請委員能夠支持因為我想政府帶頭因為我們從OS是自己的預算是有限然後一直在去要求廠商能夠用原有的價錢來承受我覺得這樣對這些進行業業的廠商也不公平我們也希望說"},{"start":3351.632,"end":3365.202,"text":"給一個廠商一個非常合理的一個利潤能夠持續把該做的事情的工作品質做好以上懇請委員支持不要刪減謝謝好請問在場其他委員有沒有其他意見要表達那麼還有第三案是不是也是翁委員的部分請一併提出說明第四案對不起第四案"},{"start":3382.052,"end":3410.003,"text":"第四案的部分呢主要是針對人事行政總處的水電費啦那因為這次也是看起來所有的機關裡面針對水電費的這個漲條幅都明顯的提高那麼以這一次人種的這個編列水電費的成長幅度高達27%我們到目前為止我們水電費也還沒有漲這麼多所以你的預期心裡是會有漲這麼高嗎"},{"start":3411.894,"end":3414.477,"text":"我們認為說這樣子的這個漲幅是顯不合理而且也希望各個機關包含人種都能夠節電省電所以我們經過計算之後呢認為行政總處的這個編列的電費呢是超編了175萬那麼在這裡但是還是這個認為"},{"start":3434.838,"end":3434.998,"text":"請機關代表說明"},{"start":3461.11,"end":3488.768,"text":"我真的謝謝委員因為委員看得蠻仔細的不過我這裡做兩個補充第一個就是我們這個經費的編列事實上是整個北棟聯合辦公道樓五個機關大家共同來分攤的我們在編這個明年的概算的時候大家有去討論那為什麼這個金額會比今年稍微高一點主要原因就是說我們有八部舊的電梯剛好在台灣"},{"start":3491.21,"end":3505.525,"text":"總緩過程中電力水電的部分會增加那在115之後因為我們換專比較新的節能的電梯之後在115的時候他整個電力的需求會往下降在轉換他剛好在轉換階段"},{"start":3507.146,"end":3523.197,"text":"最重要的一個這個經會不只是人種在這邊我們是五個北東的五個機關大家一起討論排出來了那這一部分說真的這個經會是大家來share的這個懇請委員來支持不要刪減真的謝謝"},{"start":3526.894,"end":3555.907,"text":"那人事長您的意思是說因為我們是用行政院的聯合辦公大樓那因為電梯太換所以在聯合辦公大樓裡面共同使用辦公室的各機關叫分攤但是是用管理費的形式去分攤電梯的一個改善的費用是嗎?所有的電、水、燙的都供給樂觀利用或者是說這些費用是水、電還有包括電梯的東西嗎?對對對都搭下去了"},{"start":3556.147,"end":3571.301,"text":"能不能分別說明一下因為我們一般在事前的審查若是水電費的部分也是通案檢討但是如果在當中可以區分成電梯的效能改善那就跟水電要做區分可是你們在預算編列上是合併在表現嗎"},{"start":3576.125,"end":3594.223,"text":"人事總處秘書是蔡富雄蔡主任報告我們那個管理小組他運作模式五個機關進駐機關我們今年變多錢是因為我們的管理小組委員會開會決議明年我們的總整筆的行政管理費多少錢那行政管理費其實包含了水電瓦斯等等包含了設備的維護像"},{"start":3595.945,"end":3621.237,"text":"明年就要增加了大樓空調箱兩台消防緊急廣播系統揚聲器更新因為我們本身有第一樓到三樓是領事事務局發護照的那個部分那個民眾來這邊使用水電量我們是水管是同一條電也是同一條所以我們用分攤的比例那因為我們人事總處跟陸委會用樓地板面具分攤我們是一六三分之四十四分之一的股東"},{"start":3621.897,"end":3649.236,"text":"所以這個部分其實是我們佔了所有的編列的四分之一回推回來我們必須要編這麼多的管理費上繳我們的管理小組他包含了水電瓦斯等等什麼人事費清潔費環境消毒安全檢查像外牆前陣子外牆那個整修拉皮那個那個是安全的檢查這部分全部都是腳關有點類似我們自己住公寓大廈管理委員會我們的管理費交給公司以後是除了他統包的方式"},{"start":3650.076,"end":3663.924,"text":"所以在水電部分我們真的沒辦法切割說我入耳會搭了18樓電梯我人事總部搭了10樓電梯搭了幾次是大家共同使用所以這個模式已經從85年運作到現在都是這個方式我們真的是非常難切割以上報告"},{"start":3665.837,"end":3681.033,"text":"謝謝說明請翁委員再來請莊委員可是因為你們向來的水電費就是都是憋大概64萬多而且過去說明都是說是這是給首長宿舍還有中間新村辦公室所需要的水電網絲費"},{"start":3682.515,"end":3691.386,"text":"那麼為什麼你們之前都不需要分攤然後這次呢需要分攤而且你們主要是成長非常多啊你們這次是要編的是多少1894萬欸呃 對不起 呃 對 應該是 是吧1894萬對 這大幅的成長"},{"start":3699.697,"end":3715.683,"text":"對,如果說按照剛剛人總這邊的說明但其實我們應該要把在北棟辦公大樓這裡到底有哪幾個部會的水電費都一起要來看說不定呢他們也編你們也編就重複都編很高"},{"start":3718.055,"end":3726.841,"text":"報告委員,不會有重複,不會有重複編,我覺得委員的這個疑慮我們之後會整理一下資料這四個機關,我們 summation 是多少,每一個機關分擔多少,我們提供這樣的資料給委員看我覺得這樣齁,能夠看到整個夫妻酒會比較完整,不然大家沒有看到完整的一個輪廓的話,會覺得我這裡邊他那邊會有 overlap 的問題"},{"start":3746.454,"end":3758.623,"text":"是因為主要是你們一大幅的成長你們過去都沒有編這麼高的水電費然後這次又成長得非常多然後再加上我們就算是預期114年電價會漲那我都給你們算得很清楚欸114年電價漲幅如果是10%扣除掉行政院所說的節電目標2%然後你們的成長就比113年又成長7.8%然後超出的部分當然要減劣"},{"start":3772.913,"end":3800.955,"text":"所以我們基本上是經過計算的我不是說隨便亂湊出這個數字那你們剛剛講的就是又要跟別的機關來分擔那個水電費我越聽越模糊那如果是這樣為什麼之前都不分擔那這次今年開始要分擔每一次都分擔那為什麼從以前成立北棟為什麼之前不需要這麼多的經費今年卻又大幅的成長只是因為換電梯嗎"},{"start":3802.276,"end":3812.414,"text":"我不只是換電梯還有其他的設施的剛才我們蔡主任也提到有一些像空調的因為他有life cycle"},{"start":3813.15,"end":3839.766,"text":"你如果新過的話一般來講會有保固一年你如果進入到第二年第三年有些設備的一個維護費用就會增加像我們大概年底到明年會換電梯那你換了新電梯它會有保固嘛保固期間的維護費就不會支付可是超過那個保固期間之後維護費用我們就要編列我們有一個比較完整的一個預算編列的一個procedure"},{"start":3842.017,"end":3861.363,"text":"所以你們管理費又變成是拿去當那個什麼這個設備的維護維修費喔因為那個設備喔大家每一個機關都要分攤各自編列然後一起去採購去更換傳統的從以前到現在都是這樣"},{"start":3863.834,"end":3877.881,"text":"來 有沒有那個莊委員要來請莊委員這個我會很認真在看你們的預算只是我在看我只有一個地方不明白啦你們這個不是什麼大錢啦但問題就是說為什麼今年編的會多增加了將近二十幾趴可不可以說明我因為你們公公媽媽不是什麼什麼"},{"start":3887.711,"end":3901.307,"text":"你就告訴我們為什麼你怎麼會給這20幾%出來這是我們應該是說管理委員會今年所要增加的項目是非常多剛剛跟到委員報告的比如說工資調上、廣播設備、大樓空調箱那些全部要統一因為我們是"},{"start":3902.301,"end":3925.212,"text":"比如說我們今天有1000萬要用我們總人事總組要分攤250萬然後才能整個共同採購由今年的輪值機關是領事事務局當召集機關來做同意的採購那其實錢就是類似於說公寓大廈管理委員會裡面不管電梯馬達的維修都是這個方式我們是根據前面那個我們要分攤四分之一才要回推回來我們必須編組這麼多這個問題在這裡"},{"start":3927.593,"end":3950.527,"text":"委員的意思我另外一種方式來說明啦每年整個二十幾趴主要就是有空調箱還有緊急廣播嘛因為那個都要夠使用壽命的會增加一些項目所以預算當然會增加大概主要會增加在緊急廣播還有空調箱那部分啦同委我看這個給他支持他們這種單位"},{"start":3955.177,"end":3966.647,"text":"我認為說,說得不清楚啦,就整個的,剛剛人總,就是在想這裡講,如果是那麼多不同的機關共同share,那你們到底是怎麼樣這個去分攤"},{"start":3968.055,"end":3981.206,"text":"相關的管理費還要支出哪些項目也是到你們剛剛講是我們才比較清楚那是不是可以給我一個報告然後那這裡的話還是要簡略對不對你們這個確實是跟其他的單位相比這邊的這個過高"},{"start":3988.049,"end":4005.18,"text":"各位委員請懇請委員你凍結就好因為那個簡略的部分因為事實上是我們幾個機關都有精算過啦那到時候你要有其他的公務來會有我們執行上會有責任人行"},{"start":4005.731,"end":4032.846,"text":"好,人事長請教一下因為我們都希望說在委員這個預算的提案之後肯機關先去跟委員做說明聽起來我大概了解機關的說明的內容但是翁委員事前好像並不了解是這樣的編列方式那我是覺得第一啦我發現好像你們沒有去跟翁委員做說明那第二呢是不是現在這個部分我大概把你們的說明做個整理那個口頭的部分但是書面的部分"},{"start":4033.326,"end":4060.489,"text":"能否提供很快的提供給歐盟人了解那原則上我們主席這邊處理的方式是這樣因為呢聽起來你們這個預算的涵蓋第一你們是聯合辦公大樓共同分攤總金額不是由你們決定那這當中呢區分成兩個部分一個叫設備一個叫做經常費用就是水電那如果水電的部分我們有提到因為我們委員會在審查各機關的預算都對於水電"},{"start":4061.67,"end":4077.791,"text":"是否有反應成本有按照這個電費水電費的調漲去做反應沒有過度的反應這個我們會要求所以這個部分純粹就每個月開支的水電費這個部分是希望是做通案的處理"},{"start":4078.692,"end":4107.654,"text":"那至於聯合辦公大樓你們幾個機關共用那共用的時候你們因為要更新設備所以這些更新的設備一定決定好一個金額之後大家來分攤所以也不是說我們這邊對人種做檢列那其他的陸委會其他的外交部的領事事務局那大家說好了要更新這個設備按你們的預算被檢列那就你們少分攤嗎這個我想也不是合理啦所以呢是不是你們能夠把這個區分開來雖然你們在預算科目上表達"},{"start":4109.295,"end":4110.196,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4127.603,"end":4148.911,"text":"一個公寓大樓收了每個戶的管理費他們累積這個收來的管理費他有一部分是去支應當月每個月不同的水電費的變動支出但是他會留一部分的錢定期的來幫大樓去更新包括電梯這些維護的這些資本門的支出那這個部分可能在"},{"start":4149.651,"end":4171.166,"text":"管理費的部分管理委員會會有做經常門跟置本門的分列但是就你們來講你們就是每年按照管理委員會所要的分攤比例你們當作經常門的支出來編列我所理解的是這樣子但你們這樣的編列方式就我們審查我們就很難區分不然的話我們都會看得到就像如果是水電費純粹是每個月變動的水電費是一個"},{"start":4173.047,"end":4196.432,"text":"要更新電梯是一個,立法院就是這樣我們要更新電梯就是一個然後呢我們如果要更換空調的那個冰水那個系統那那個冰水系統因為一用就是用十幾二十年嘛那也是會分開列那如果這今年有編的冰水系統的更新不會每年都編列所以這個預算如果把它包在一起就會成成一個波動"},{"start":4197.412,"end":4217.344,"text":"平常的時候都是水電的經常支出,到了要更換設備的時候,那一年就會暴漲,就會漲起來。所以你們這個應該讓大家知道,讓我們委員知道說,你們這個變動有多少是來自於每個月的水電費的變動造成的,有多少是週期性的因為設備更新所造成的。"},{"start":4218.357,"end":4235.212,"text":"這個我們這樣聽起來才能理解,不然他會看到,欸是不是週期性的每到有重大設備要換的,你們那一年的就比前一年的基期就提早20%。這20%是反映在水電費的成長,還是反映在這些水電相關系統的更換。這點要做說明啦。"},{"start":4235.993,"end":4250.761,"text":"好那因為我們本身也管過總務所以我希望說你們是不是可以很快的把這樣的一個情形描述給我們在場今天來審查的委員了解這個叫去年基期成長百分之二十幾是"},{"start":4251.421,"end":4268.139,"text":"純粹反映在水電費的漲幅的預期還是一些定期更換的設備的週期到了你們必須同時去分擔這些更換設備所應要的支出這要講清楚請人事長再次回答回應一下非常謝謝趙委員我想"},{"start":4270.177,"end":4297.493,"text":"由一個總數1800多來看是一個總數可是它裡面大概會分三大類一個類似一個水電我們會用前後年的一個比較第二個是人事會因為人事會坦白講最近也這兩年也都有增加一些第三個就是剛才召委所提的它會有一些更換的這個設備的項目會有新增的更換項目所以這一部分的金額那我們會試著把"},{"start":4298.834,"end":4309.444,"text":"把這個1800、900萬的錢把它分成三、四個item這樣前後年比較就可以看得出來到底是水電有沒有成長成長是幾%這樣會比較清楚"},{"start":4313.206,"end":4336.661,"text":"那請問你們可以很快的時間至少3、5年的把它做出來嗎?就是說我聽懂了啦你們這一筆費用1800多萬有分成這個水電費那是每個月按照費率去調整的有漲才有提沒有漲就沒有提高人事費也是按照我們整個薪資的比例去調整但是所謂設備的更新這不是每年都有的這是週期性的發生"},{"start":4337.481,"end":4360.376,"text":"那如果週期六年發生,發生的那一年當然這部分的費用就跳起來嘛那你們可不可以就這三個item這三個部分你們把過去三年的或五年的我們這個案子先暫保留你們把這個整理出來我們提供給有意見的委員瞭解後我們這個部分呢我會這樣的處理如果是屬於系統更新週期性的更新的部分那我們就請委員看要怎麼樣來審查"},{"start":4361.897,"end":4388.442,"text":"那如果是屬於經常性的水電會或人事會隨著整體的物價或者這個去調整的那個會比較是通案因為現在委員們對於說明年我們各機關的水電會的支出是不是有過度反映了預期的漲幅以至於過度調高這是我們關心的那個會通案處理但是如果是屬於系統週期性的太舊更新所必要的"},{"start":4389.142,"end":4396.467,"text":"這個其實委員會何時的來給予支持?我想這一點請你們是不是很快的幾點之前可以提供?黃委員"},{"start":4402.271,"end":4424.807,"text":"支持這個案子保留第二個請你們提供剛剛召委所說的資料之餘你們剛剛所講的有一個管理委員會有做一個決議有一個會議紀錄對吧把那個管理委員會的會議紀錄完整的每一個委員都發一份因為我要處理因為我覺得翁委員很用心"},{"start":4426.208,"end":4453.949,"text":"算成這個樣子不容易那要處理的話恐怕只處理人種對你們不公平那我認為要處理就是全面的處理這五個單位到時候東西來了以後我看完了我會去跟其他四個單位對他們預算到底怎麼編的看是不是如同任市長所講的大家編列的原則、漲幅通通都一樣那這個需要時間去做比對"},{"start":4455.13,"end":4482.7,"text":"那所以我即時就要就先保留。好,我們本案暫保留。那麼機關代表什麼時候可以送到我們當道的處理。原則上我們今天上午的會議到12點。大概是這樣的情況。那這個部分的我們第一幕一般行政提案案號二案到四案起暫保留。好,我們接下來往下走。那個從第五案到第17案到31案是同一幕。那這當中呢"},{"start":4486.587,"end":4495.239,"text":"有改成主決的部分我先把它點出來那麼請委員翻閱我們的會整表的第二頁從第5案到第30"},{"start":4500.37,"end":4527.325,"text":"一案那大概目前已經有改列為主決議的有第九案第二頁的第九案第十案第十二案第十四案第十五案那十五案他是併十四案改組決議第十七案十七案併十四案改組決議第十八案也是併十四案十九案也是併十四案然後呢第二十三案"},{"start":4527.825,"end":4544.282,"text":"改組決議這是目前改組決的情況那是否改組決的部分我們在場的委員就同意好 經理官有沒有意見那我們組決是到後面再處理嗎好 那這些組決議的部分我們到後面討論組決議的時候"},{"start":4546.169,"end":4547.569,"text":"第二款第三項第二幕人事行政之政策規劃執行及發展總共編列了一億九千多萬"},{"start":4577.352,"end":4605.032,"text":"在新的國會的時候我從3月問到9月軍公教待遇法制化的事情早就該做了我在質詢的時候說得很清楚了兩次質詢把軍公教待遇法制化的事情兩次質詢我已經說得非常的清楚了人事長在這邊信誓旦旦年底以前東西會送來立法院東西在哪裡"},{"start":4607.076,"end":4630.508,"text":"你信誓旦旦喔年底以前東西會送來立法院東西在哪裡反正我們預算的處理啦我看12月底也不可能一定是延會到1月才處理啦所以這一案你要不然就接受你要不然就保留你12月底東西有送來我自己測案你12月底東西沒有設來"},{"start":4632.251,"end":4650.146,"text":"沒有送來,那我就會堅持。你在國會裡面做的承諾,你...你不會都親嘴公公的。現在時間還不夠啦。12月底還沒到嘛,那我就等你啊。我等你到12月底啊。12月底東西送來,我撤案。12月底東西沒有送來,我堅持到底。"},{"start":4658.018,"end":4678.391,"text":"那麼請機關代表回覆陳如黃總召所提的啦我現在把整個我們處理的一個程序做一個補充啦我們在12月不好意思齁我們現在是在審預算啦現在是在審預算你要接受不要接受"},{"start":4684.332,"end":4704.19,"text":"你年底東西可不可以送來你現在講啦我對人事長沒有不敬的意思啊但你應該可以理解我的心情啊你講的話在我心目當中可信度很低啦2018年我幫消防弟兄發聲跟你講公務人員安慰辦法要修你2018年給我承諾"},{"start":4706.451,"end":4716.097,"text":"我2024年回來立法院的時候我就問你第一件事情你2018年答應我什麼你記不記得結果你完全忘記我還要把會議記錄調出來公教人員的安慰辦法"},{"start":4722.52,"end":4745.28,"text":"明面上面雖然是考試院保訓會實質上面是人總要負責一起處理的我2018年問你這件事情的時候你也承認你也說你要做做到2024年什麼事情都沒有做軍公教待遇法治化的事情也是一樣拖了多久了我兩次質詢講得很清楚了"},{"start":4746.926,"end":4775.238,"text":"你在國會裡面拍胸脯跟我信誓旦旦說年底以前才會送來我尊重人事長在國會裡面所做的承諾所以我的提案很簡單你年底以前東西送來我撤案你年底以前東西沒有送來那我就會堅持到底事情就這麼簡單好因為黃委員剛剛的發言已經也包含了第六案了是不是請那個人事長第五案第六案就一併說明那其他委員有意見的待會再提出"},{"start":4777.663,"end":4793.263,"text":"那個我想在立法院的答應我們一定是較拚較驚啦因為就是舍業底啦舍業底我們就尊重總召的意思啦我們事實上"},{"start":4794.845,"end":4812.235,"text":"現在程序等於最後一個階段要等排入行政院的院會如果送出來我們會趕水月底事實上我們一直有on schedule在進行來請問在場其他委員有沒有意見"},{"start":4814.419,"end":4829.507,"text":"關於第五案、第六案,因為也是說,其實這樣的,的確第六案的部分其實主席本席這邊過去在質詢的時候也有就安慰辦法就教於人總跟保訓委員會"},{"start":4830.529,"end":4843.138,"text":"那麼其實兩個機關因為職場的關係各有所要照顧的部分但是要合作共同來提那人總的部分還要經過行政院院會那然後還要院紀協調還要跟考試院協調所以我想這個之間跟考試院"},{"start":4846.38,"end":4862.972,"text":"保訓會那邊大家彼此在法規上的分工跟協調應該要趕快的去進行那既然人事長認為說在12月底前可以救人總的部分先將本委員會做出關於預算審查的時候你們應盡應違的報告那這個部分"},{"start":4865.954,"end":4879.543,"text":"先五、六案也是暫保留但我們繼續往下走那麼請教黃委員因為我們還沒有這個幕要整個處理所以黃委員是不是後面還有第七案、第八案以及第20案及第28案還有78、20、28"},{"start":4885.367,"end":4891.869,"text":"黃總召是第五案第五案第五案第五案第五案第五案第五案"},{"start":4903.433,"end":4913.937,"text":"主席各位委員好我任總綜合規劃處處長陳月春報告有關黃委員提案第6案的部分是要請我們會同保訓會召開相關的會議"},{"start":4918.998,"end":4945.764,"text":"延定公務人員保障法公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法增訂對機關之法則這個提案的部分我們是這個部分保証會我們也跟他們有密切的保持聯繫那目前來講的話因應近期霸凌的案件他整個安慰辦法保障法他們現在正在邀集相關心理法律人資的相關專家的學者"},{"start":4946.904,"end":4966.237,"text":"議會召開座談會。預計在明年的二、三月會就諮詢的結果與相關主管機關當然這個包含勞動部還有我們總處會持續來做會議的一個研討。保訓會那邊也已經明確跟我們表達就是說法案會在明年預計明年"},{"start":4968.598,"end":4986.41,"text":"4月底前會完成修正草案送考4院審議整個審議完之後他們的期程規劃是5月底前要送到立法院來所以在第6案的提案部分我們是不是建議委員可以讓我們改成主決議"},{"start":4989.885,"end":5013.682,"text":"請問剛剛發言是給予福利處嗎我綜合規劃處陳處長抱歉好謝謝那個剛剛第五案的部分人事長已經說是12月前會將的進度提交那所以我們剛剛保留的是第五案現在講的是第六案第六案的部分現在黃委員有意見來請對不起我沒辦法同意我簡單講第六案跟第七案我一併講過去這段時間"},{"start":5017.745,"end":5035.995,"text":"我講的過去這段時間不是一個月兩個月三個月或六個月是好幾年了是好幾年了從2018年我開始質詢這件事情大家看到的是什麼我們的公部門機關啊踢皮球大賽大家都在踢皮球啊人總考試院"},{"start":5047.174,"end":5073.322,"text":"勞動部三個機關我們蕭王弟兄要的是安慰棒是直接把它放在職業安全衛生法裡面問勞動部勞動部說這個要尊重行政院這邊其他機關的意見考試院說要跟人總這邊商議然後人總認為是考試院的事情我做事很公平人總放心"},{"start":5074.383,"end":5102.113,"text":"我要處理這件事情所有曾經參與踢皮球的機關我是全面處理我不會只處理人種我是全面處理處理到這件事情獲得解決為止到時候各個機關大家都不要推命運共同體責任共同承擔事情有做出來各個機關的通通都解凍事情沒有做出來就繼續動下去動到你們把事情做出來為止"},{"start":5104.437,"end":5125.013,"text":"所以對不起我沒有辦法同意你改成主決議報告委員那是不是可以如果是這樣子的話不要簡列用凍結的方式凍結第6案第7案各凍結100萬可不可以支持來請換委員第6案我同意簡列"},{"start":5126.823,"end":5141.686,"text":"我先拿掉但凍結一千萬我沒有辦法退你如果只願意凍結一百萬那就沒有辦法處理那就保留好來目前我們剛剛第五案是保留啦"},{"start":5142.652,"end":5156.99,"text":"第6案、第7案因為這兩個屬性我大概做一個釐清關於消防弟兄其實在過去這幾年也包括社會上看到類似像火神的眼淚這些直接刻劃消防人員他們的辛勞危險"},{"start":5158.271,"end":5176.076,"text":"那所發生的事故包括我所在的屏東縣政府我們的消防局的消防弟兄在這兩年也遭逢了相當慘痛的一個犧牲那我想這個都是全國人民所不捨的所以這裡面涉及到三個部分那關於消防人員的部分他就涉及到消防法"},{"start":5176.816,"end":5194.966,"text":"目前這是內政部所主管但是在火場發生現場的工廠倉儲這幾年來也發生了雖消防員但是是屬於勞工就像前兩天倉儲發生的大火不是消防弟兄但是是現場的工班是全體的避難"},{"start":5196.747,"end":5212.586,"text":"那這個部分這的確是在我們職業安全衛生法是勞動部主管的勞動部主管的職業安全衛生法對職場的安全的部分是不分你是消防員還是原來在工班的工作人員所以消防"},{"start":5213.727,"end":5239.016,"text":"職業安全衛生法既規範民間企業的工作勞工也規範因為執行公務而進入的包括消防員但因為消防員本身的身份他是公務員所以又跑到保訓會的公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法但是這個辦法又不是只顧及到消防員也不是關係到這個職業安全衛生法還包括最近發生的職場霸凌"},{"start":5239.716,"end":5267.105,"text":"那麼的確剛剛黃委員的說明社會都在看那過去這幾年來也不只是2018年2018年更早之前類似的不管是公務員本身還是職場發生的事故只要發生事故大家來檢討那相關主管機關就要去修他們的所主管的法規但是剛剛聽起來機關代表的說明會讓我們感覺到前面發生的是消防員2018年發生的這真的不是只有2018年"},{"start":5268.385,"end":5288.329,"text":"那可是呢相關的勞動部或者是消防署他有沒有動但是牽動到我們公務員身份屬性的安慰辦法那我們要趕快去處理那可是處理就沒有結果了那到現在呢又發生了一個霸凌事件又說要全面的檢討好像每次的這個會診的檢討的調整都因為就案"},{"start":5292.045,"end":5314.662,"text":"所因應為的調整還沒做好又發生了新案就併同新案繼續研議我想這個是國人所不能接受的等於是你沒完沒了嘛因為舊案發生了我們舊案在檢討啊要修改啊修改都還沒議定又發生新案因為新案的關係新案的特性新案的情境我們要針對新案的部分來做進行檢討"},{"start":5316.443,"end":5345.583,"text":"那這樣子只要有繼續新案發生這個法規的檢討就永遠沒有辦法抵定啦我想今天我們在這裡審查預算的時候大家所凸顯出來的問題的確有行政機關在這方面我不敢說是刻意的怠惰但是呢在這個推捏或者說沒有積極的從事這樣的心態呢的確是我們社會上大家國人如果真有這種情況是不能接受的所以剛剛這個黃委員所提出的他說他簡略他可以先"},{"start":5346.423,"end":5347.184,"text":"中央政府總預算案"},{"start":5361.596,"end":5388.074,"text":"包括消防署包括勞動部關係到的這些這些不是只有公務員的部分還關係到其他的職場勞工我想這個部分呢是不是請人總機關代表人事長可以做一個完整的說明讓我們知道全貌是否是大家所看到的這個外觀的情況是不斷的新的事件發生你們就不斷的呢再根據真的新的事件再倒車回去重新檢討那永遠"},{"start":5389.815,"end":5403.121,"text":"永遠沒有出爐的一天嘛。是不是請機關代表回覆。好,謝謝趙偉給我們這個說明的機會。事實上在過去上一年我們已經也跟考試院還有保訓會還有勞動部還有內政部有針對那個治安法還有安慰棒法"},{"start":5409.304,"end":5430.029,"text":"相關的去做一些釐清那新任的考試院做院長他也提了把霸凌的部分也一併會在5月底以前所以我想我就支持那個就是尊重總召剛才的採釋就是不刪子棟金額就尊重黃總召"},{"start":5432.654,"end":5455.689,"text":"好,那麼是這樣,那就是第6案跟第7案,第7案是那個職安法跟安慰辦法,那這個第7案是比較,應該不是限於消防員,因為提案說明很清楚,那至於第6案的部分,因為職安法是屬於勞動部所主管的,"},{"start":5456.38,"end":5478.149,"text":"那麼第六案呢案外辦法呢是考試院跟行政院這邊要求公務員部分共同來協商那剛剛任市長提到是五月份那這樣的話一千萬的部分凍結一千萬那麼結凍的條件是經司法法制委員會同意後時的凍資請問在場委員我們是不是就這樣的方式來安排進行來怎麼樣請說明陳處長"},{"start":5483.138,"end":5499.597,"text":"不好意思我可不可以委員可以支持就是說我們在第6案的部分的話是我們3個月內向司法法制委員會提出書面報告使得動之那第7案的部分的話第6案我直接跟你講不可能啊"},{"start":5501.664,"end":5515.331,"text":"好那第七案的部分這邊有提到就是說要一個月內做成書面報告經司法法制委員會同意時的動制那這一個月內可不可以三個月可以所以兩個案第六案是有沒有寫幾個月啊沒有餒第六案沒有寫"},{"start":5532.318,"end":5557.712,"text":"第六案的部分的話在最後一段我們剛剛跟委員有提到建議就是說在倒數第二最後一行那個部分倒數第二行後面代法案送至立法院後經司法法制委員會同意時的動之我們是希望可以修說三個月三個月內"},{"start":5558.712,"end":5578.309,"text":"那個就沒有三個月了所以我想這裡的條件跟其成無關因為這個搞不好要跟考試院會嫌是不是這樣子所以這個部分或許或許就看法案什麼時候送到立法院那個就從那個時間點開始算了那第七案的部分是三個月那因為第七案"},{"start":5579.451,"end":5604.426,"text":"第七案的部分因為是行政院內嘛就你們跟勞動部的職安法跟主席報告其實這邊提到的就是說公務人員到底適用職安法還是安慰辦法其實這跟第六案的情形一樣是整個要來做一個通盤的一個檢討所以在那個第二段的那個決議提案裡面我們是剛剛"},{"start":5606.067,"end":5628.684,"text":"就是說最後就是說沒有那個處長你不用說了因為你講得很清楚了啦三個月他說適用啦適用就讓你們就這個案子的適用的情況做說明而已那前案是要法案一個是就適用沒有要你去不是要你去去修法因為這個治安法也不是你修的啊對不對也不是你們主管的嘛但是如何適用"},{"start":5629.574,"end":5646.834,"text":"人總要有一個主張要有一個看法那這個看法跟主張那未來我們本委員會其他的委員如果在審治安法的時候他們就可以參酌所以三個月就他的適用提出個書面報告那前案呢就是送法案送到立法院那你們就"},{"start":5648.479,"end":5676.801,"text":"我們就可以來進行討論要不要動之所以第六案就動一簽那麼法案送立法院經本委員會同意後時的動之第七案是三個月將這個書面報告送本委員會那麼我請教一下那個黃總召那個如果是這樣的話因為職安法不是人事總處所主管的那這個書面報告坦白說"},{"start":5678.723,"end":5706.328,"text":"我們委員會來同意是否是要加個同意因為這個部分目的是要他們做出一個說明那這個可能未來在修法的時候是在未還委員會那邊那請教我們黃總召的看法我還是認為要司法法制委員會同意後才可以通知啊兩個理由行政機關的書面報告我看太多了啦答非所問"},{"start":5708.455,"end":5732.196,"text":"檢貼貼文啊我真的看太多了啦所以這個一定要送來這邊同意第二個就治安法的部分喔你們最後的結論很有可能是就不適合用嘛但不適合用我要看到的書面報告是什麼如果不適合用的話還有下一個階段的問題治安法"},{"start":5733.496,"end":5762.126,"text":"跟安慰辦法也好公務人員保障法也好最大的不同在哪裡最大的不同是在治安法裡面他針對各種不同情況的工作職業寫的是鉅細米疑啊但呢在我們公務人員體系啊不要說到鉅細米疑啊是空洞貧乏兩個差距太遠了兩個差距太遠了"},{"start":5763.68,"end":5781.367,"text":"你到時候要跟大家講要適用職安法沒有可能事情還沒結束喔那如果適用職安法沒有可能的話那從公務人員保障法到安慰辦法到人種的業務是不是應該要像職業安全衛生法一樣你把各式各樣不同狀況的指引給做出來"},{"start":5795.314,"end":5807.845,"text":"過去就是因為消極怠惰根本沒有在做嘛所以我才用空洞平法四個字來加以形容嘛阿如果勞動部針對職業安全衛生法可以搞出那麼多指引出來為什麼在公務人員的體系卻是一片空白我找不到理由阿因為公務人員比較好處理嗎"},{"start":5821.892,"end":5849.726,"text":"因為公務人員不用收到應該有必要的保護嗎?因為公務人員這些規範最好不要施加比較好嗎?我不知道理由是什麼但我看到的是結果面什麼叫結果面職業安全衛生法裡面很多質疑公務人員保障法到安慰辦法下面一片空白落差太大了所以"},{"start":5850.777,"end":5866.194,"text":"回覆召委剛剛的詢問第7案我還是堅持要經司法制同意使能動之那我想這樣因為第6案跟第7案都是要經本委員同意或使得動之那似乎金額的部分是不是就並同處理"},{"start":5867.486,"end":5886.748,"text":"不行 分開來好 那麼請問那個機關代表你們對於第7案因為第7案的時程比較你們能夠控制這跟第6案你們要等考試院會嫌還要送到法案送到立法院這個部分的時程你們比較難掌握那這兩個部分請機關代表有什麼看法"},{"start":5888.004,"end":5910.405,"text":"第七案動一千萬因為直接我們可以行政院內部協調希望動一千萬維持那第六案能不能凍結金額能夠少一點因為還要跟考試院那裡相關我覺得一個案子一個案子剛講好我都已經點頭第六案三的我已經把它拿掉了只動欸"},{"start":5912.403,"end":5937.052,"text":"我第六案我已經很客氣把刪的都拿掉了欸你如果真的要嚴肅來跟我講第六案我當初為什麼會要刪一千萬我過去要刪的一千萬就是對於你們過去這六年毫無作為的懲罰啊我之前在審其他機關的預算的時候我講得很清楚我在處理預算的態度是你該做的事情沒有做這件事情必須要有consequence"},{"start":5939.602,"end":5959.948,"text":"我第六案的部分我剛已經釋出善意了三一千萬我拿掉然後就動一千萬啊你們剛點頭同意現在你是要回頭來揮嗎啊你如果要回頭來揮那沒關係啊那我就回到我本來的提案啊啊剛剛第七案你跟我開口說要三個月我也點頭啦這樣啦黃總召是這樣齁我是覺得第六案第一案其實在同一幕下啦"},{"start":5967.335,"end":5996.113,"text":"那對機關來講對他的效果是不太一樣的因為第七案是他自己能夠比較有較大的責任那麼如果一千萬他做不到他自己要承擔但是第六案呢他涉及到其他的機關其實如果從這兩個案子人事總署所扮演的積極性跟所承擔能力來講的確第七案如果說是如果從一千萬的金額來說他動一千萬"},{"start":5996.753,"end":5997.474,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6019.777,"end":6042.991,"text":"責任跟壓力跟第七案他比較有主導性他也能夠去促成那麼這個動了一千萬有對他來講有鞭策的效果所以我是想跟黃總召打個商量如果說是這樣子是不是第七案如果是機關代表希望維持一千萬第六案可以著雨降低然後呢讓機關他很清楚知道他的主婦兩個的"},{"start":6045.112,"end":6066.517,"text":"主從啊他第7案呢他自己能主導的他這1000萬要解凍他必須多努力至於第6案如果因著其他機關的延誤而造成他機關預算上的滋用造成妨礙這個是不是可以請總召這邊黃總召這邊考量一下要求是我主席這邊齁做一個這樣的一個討論我聽到了對不起沒辦法同意"},{"start":6069.192,"end":6075.207,"text":"好謝謝那麼請問其他委員那麼我們第6案第7案那麼後面還有是不是黃總到這邊繼續"},{"start":6077.574,"end":6101.856,"text":"不好意思喔我們每個按照順序來嘛第6案跟第7案現在請問現在有結論了嗎剛剛我提的要求他們不是同意了嗎所以現在第6案跟第7案到底有結論還是沒有結論因為本來是要委員全部都提出之後我們就一併處理那是因為聽起來剛剛因為機關代表希望趕快能救第6案能夠有一個定論所以我就先處理了"},{"start":6104.018,"end":6128.812,"text":"第6案處理完了嗎?第7案處理完了嗎?第7案的部分他們有做一個表示了那我是不是因為後面還有其他提案是類似的因為第8案有一個服刑辦法是不是?第8案歸第8案嘛現在我的問題很具體剛剛第7案他們行政機關要求給他們3個月我點頭同意了所以我現在請教的是第7案處理完沒有?"},{"start":6130.832,"end":6154.229,"text":"這樣子根本沒完沒了嘛。好,那麼因為黃總召這邊後面第7案我們剛剛有做了討論還有第8案、第20案及第28案好,那部分我們就第7案我們就動1000萬送書面報告經同意後使得動之。好,謝謝。"},{"start":6157.11,"end":6181.332,"text":"第8案還有第20案及28案。然後現在進入第8案的部分那第8案的部分真的是跟我們很多公務員他們的權益是有關係的我基本上面的立場是國家要尊潔之初這個我一定是百分之百支持我們行政院院長卓榮泰他所下的指令"},{"start":6182.655,"end":6208.728,"text":"所以我說過卓榮泰的要求跟吩咐我們一定會落實在這個會期預算的審查之上不可以浪費公帑國家預算要遵截但是在另外一方面針對有關於公務人員超時工作上面的問題那個是跟前面那個霸凌清楚的連結在一起因為"},{"start":6210.137,"end":6225.898,"text":"在那個案子裡面我們清楚的看到了超時工作沒有得到應該有的補償的這件事情這個對於全體的公務員都是一個很大的傷害所以就針對有關於"},{"start":6228.143,"end":6244.373,"text":"行政院跟所屬中央地方機關公務員扶勤實施辦法各機關加班費支給辦法這件事情我們要求針對你們到底要怎麼樣能夠落實4至785號所要求的內容必須要提具體的檢討報告而且要公開上網讓所有的公務員都可以看得到要不然大家現在要打夾卡"},{"start":6257.022,"end":6258.043,"text":"好 今天代表請說明"},{"start":6275.114,"end":6298.486,"text":"我這裡大概可以就是按照黃總召的意思我們會把整個調查報告在網路上做揭露同樣的我們也會再請問給所有的機關必須要去按照加班的相關的辦法來實施就是避免打假卡的這個問題"},{"start":6302.833,"end":6304.2,"text":"來請先說明是"},{"start":6307.41,"end":6336.077,"text":"教委各位委員好喔那個培訓考用處處長李華叔是這樣子剛剛那個人事長已經宣誓就是說我們會把那個檢討的報告公開上網那此外事上我們從去年到今年開始我們已經有辦了10場次宣導說明會也有辦了10場次的實地訪視我們都有去實地親親基層公務員的意見那我們會遵照那個黃總召的意思就是我們會寫個檢討報告公開上網那這邊就是建請是不是就"},{"start":6336.497,"end":6364.126,"text":"可以改成主決?因為黃委員的意思,我們都會照辦了。你把報告送來嗎?你把報告送來,看完了以後大家滿意這個報告的內容再解到嗎?那這樣文字的部分是不是我們黃委員同意就是我們凍結少一點,因為我們都會照做。是不是凍結100萬,然後文字調整成就是三個月交書面報告,經司法及法制委員會同意後凍結?可以。"},{"start":6369.195,"end":6395.848,"text":"目前第8案動100萬提書面報告後經同意後時的動資我跟機關代表說明一下這個凍結的預算到我們下會期何時由當時的輪值召委來安排決定解凍這個部分就是下個會期的事情了是否能夠"},{"start":6398.029,"end":6417.279,"text":"機關代表要衡量你們預算之用的期程你們目前是兩個一百一千萬一個一百萬這個部分做個提醒那麼機關的運作在你們總編列的預算額度向下那因為我們每都是按計播用嘛每個月去執行嘛那你們動機的數量"},{"start":6419.585,"end":6434.17,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政院主管收支部分關於行政院人事行政院主管收支部分關於行政院主管收支部分關於行政院主管收支部分關於行政院主管收支部分關於行政院主管收支部分關於行政院主管"},{"start":6448.257,"end":6473.229,"text":"在麗昂在台南七股那光電的畢業案非常的扯啦最後台南市辦一個局長經濟部辦一個公務員我自己的看法是不公不義啊抓小放大但是那偵查機關的事情跟人總沒有關係但人總在處理這件事情上面最讓我困惑的事情是什麼最讓我困惑的是啊"},{"start":6474.451,"end":6502.085,"text":"那一個設斃的太陽光店的組長被你們頒發模範公務員模範公務員的等級是什麼模範公務員的等級是不是所有考甲等的公務員都可以當模範公務員那的標準是很高的那很高耶那是公務員的表率那是公務員的楷模才可以當模範公務員這是我的理解啦"},{"start":6503.412,"end":6526.629,"text":"發射了這個弊案以後你們說他調離限職有降調但是模範公務員不能撤銷要等到三省定業我聽不懂啦概念上面是形成並行欸形成並行這是我國現行的制度啊更何況這根本還不到懲戒的程度欸你搞成這個樣子模範公務員欸標準在那"},{"start":6532.216,"end":6558.302,"text":"然後我跟你們講這件事情要處理你們就是不處理說要等到三省定業是怎樣把模範公務員撤銷行政院會丟臉是不是當初怎麼搬行政公務員當初怎麼搬模範公務員給他的行政上可以調離主管離主管值可以降掉但模範公務員這個絕對不能拿走要等到三省定業"},{"start":6560.182,"end":6568.913,"text":"你們這樣的標準跟處理我沒有辦法接受啦二十案就是針對這個案子在做處理啦"},{"start":6573.83,"end":6596.406,"text":"執行官代表請說明執行官代表請陳處長是這樣子那個根據那個經濟部那邊他們提供給我們的說明資料是說因為他現在法院還在審理當中也就是說這個零元到底是他實際上最後的刑事責任是什麼他們那邊還沒有確定所以他們要等到至少你一審判決"},{"start":6597.507,"end":6619.126,"text":"東西就是判決的結果要出來的時候他們就會依照行政院模範公園要點的規定去撤銷抱怨撤銷那這個部分跟委員報告就是說必須要由原本的零件機關來做處理的原因是因為當時候的零件的事蹟是發生在經濟部那現在的圍屍行為也是發生在當時候的零件時機所以他們經濟部要去"},{"start":6619.676,"end":6649.154,"text":"做整體的考量而且要開考機會等等此類那此外就是跟委員報告一下之前模範公務員撤銷曾經有三個案例那其中一個案例的話就是判決有罪確定那另外兩個案例分別是彈劾成立那0元目前的狀況都不是這樣的情形那此外我們模範要點在今年10月份已經有完備修正有增列消極條件跟積極條件那以後就算是核定了之後再發生的為時日事實都可以廢止其資格"},{"start":6649.474,"end":6672.429,"text":"那零元的部分因為它是符合撤銷的所以它是到時候如果有罪確定的話經濟部那邊會依規定來辦理以上好 那好 來黃委員對嘛 所以我剛剛就跟你講嘛你們現在給我的解釋跟說辭跟我們現行的法律制度的體系是形成並行我應該沒有理解錯誤吧"},{"start":6678.007,"end":6700.403,"text":"什麼叫做行程併行行程併行就是不用等到刑事判決確定阿如果按照你們那樣的說辭可以成立的話他主管職也不應該拔阿他也不應該被降掉阿通通不准動阿等到刑事判決確定以後再來處理阿但這個是我們行政部門現在所在遵循的法規範體系嗎"},{"start":6702.962,"end":6723.349,"text":"這個就是我們行政院的關針嗎那你們如果堅持要這樣做那也沒有關係那這案就保留也沒必要再爭執下去了因為我們彼此之間在看這件事情的出發點適用的基準跟所持的立場完全不同我沒有辦法接受任總剛剛所做那樣的說明"},{"start":6726.616,"end":6727.156,"text":"請李處長再次回應一下"},{"start":6745.618,"end":6764.753,"text":"這個部分我們就遵照黃總召的意思,那是不是就是不要剪裂,然後我們改凍結就好,那我們就是一樣三個月內我們去向黃總召報告,那也向司法及法制提書面報告之後就是使得凍結。我這邊意思是說你們不是只有黃總召,我也很好奇啊。"},{"start":6766.259,"end":6768.422,"text":"二十八案的部分就那個AI人事法規生成系統"},{"start":6785.267,"end":6795.557,"text":"我這樣講好了AI人事法規生成系統我其實有質詢過那你們後來所繳來的一些說明用了450幾萬嘛"},{"start":6800.61,"end":6817.162,"text":"485萬嘛485萬對於我們人事處或者是人事主管單位的統人工作效率的提升你們目前所繳來的數字我覺得是有成效的"},{"start":6818.018,"end":6839.737,"text":"我這個人是有疑所以啦那我只是希望說你們要注意兩件事第一個事情是那個AI所產生出來的答案的正確性就是說你們當然AI只是一個初步的嘛你初步完了承辦人還是要做double check嘛但是初步給你們那個成果本身就讓"},{"start":6842.259,"end":6852.396,"text":"呃,承辦人員在處理這些事情的時候可以從多如牛毛的人事法規當中有一個大方向的指引因而提升工作效能這件事情"},{"start":6853.396,"end":6874.403,"text":"我是肯定的但我希望你們要再去檢討一下因為我看那個使用的次數你們的次數表後來有交給我我看一看我腦袋裡面有一個很疑惑的事情這到底是好用還是不好用如果按照你們跟我講的這麼好用怎麼會次數看起來"},{"start":6875.743,"end":6897.616,"text":"就好像不是這麼一回事啦一個好用的東西使用的次數某個程度上面來講是偏低嘛因為你們有每個月可以使用的token數這個我知道那我看完了我只有一個好奇就是說欸那如果這麼好用應該是這個每個月的token數會用到爆表就是用到"},{"start":6898.755,"end":6911.389,"text":"全部都把它耗盡了但實際上面的數字看起來又不是這樣但我長話短說針對這個案子你們提案要求來變組決議我可以同意"},{"start":6912.625,"end":6932.084,"text":"不用凍結不用剪裂不用凍結不用剪裂那這個東西對你們工作有幫助我願意支持但我希望你們在做這件事情的時候我希望透過主決議的方式就按照你們所建議的那個方式去跟廠商好好商量一下也去跟同仁了解一下是我們推廣不足"},{"start":6933.158,"end":6959.039,"text":"還是同仁他對於使用這個東西要怎麼入手這件事情還沒有那麼的熟悉這件事情給你們時間跟空間去做推廣然後我們等到明年此時此刻再來審預算的時候我會再一次的review這個AI人事法規對於我們相關人事的同仁他們所可能工作上面所可以產生的效益"},{"start":6959.679,"end":6963.574,"text":"所以這個案子我願意依照人總的建議就把它改成主決議"},{"start":6966.261,"end":6988.717,"text":"謝謝總召因為主決因為我21案跟28案是有相關的因為黃總召的案子比較多相當先講但事實上我的21案跟這個28案都是在同一次的業務質詢的時候業務報告質詢當中我有聽黃總召提那我也理解剛剛他說的token這個問題那他目前願意改為主決議那你們要先擬"},{"start":6989.994,"end":7019.245,"text":"好先你那在你的時間齁我還是要呢先因為跟我的21案有點關聯啊那我是覺得請那個人事長先就21案跟28案你先看一下不見得你這邊黃總召的這個改為主決議你們能他他的案子你能通過本席的案子21案你們就能通過所以我是覺得你們要思考清楚齁那這個部分呢因為黃總召的第8第28案齁那"},{"start":7019.889,"end":7019.969,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7598.052,"end":7626.551,"text":"那我們繼續開會那因為接下來有翁委員的提案那我們等翁委員回來之後呢再處理翁委員的提案那剛剛呢因為本席的21案跟剛剛討論的28案來組決議都是AI部分那我們是請陳委員來幫代理主席那我來先處理20本席的第21案那處理完之後呢我們再回過頭去從前面的翁小林委員案的處理"},{"start":7637.719,"end":7643.864,"text":"針對21案請我們提案的總嘉賓趙偉做補充說明。我想21案之前任總有來跟本席溝通。本席希望在我們審查的時候請任總做個說明。"},{"start":7655.572,"end":7674.22,"text":"那尤其是剛剛在第28案黃總召提到的AI部分事實上在之前的業務報告當中我也聽到黃總召對於這個token的使用使用的次數跟頻率那事實上這的確是人種本身對於AI人工智慧你們購買了這樣的服務那有沒有充分的善用這的確是一個關鍵的問題"},{"start":7676.101,"end":7691.951,"text":"那剛剛該案那個黃總統也同意改為主決議那本案部分我是關切到說因為在現在人總不是只負責自己機關的AI的導入運用他還包括整個行政院相關的機關我們現在講的兩個部分一般AI在機關裡面它會歸給資訊人員去處理"},{"start":7699.913,"end":7721.572,"text":"就認為這AI是資訊人員的事情那事實上這不是不完整的如果只是資訊人員那就是速發部對這些在各機關的資訊人員做一個統合的配合速發部的跟各機關的互動他就做統合的一個研習但是就人總部分人總管的是全國的個人事人員"},{"start":7722.478,"end":7750.81,"text":"人事人員在各全國各機關當中他如果能夠善用AI這樣的一個便利的工具的確可以發揮到協助機關做很多很多的事情我舉大家目前的我們社會眾所關注的所謂的霸凌的事件霸凌啊不是只有公部門也有可是感覺上最近為什麼公部門比較多那反而民間部門我們有聽過但是比較不是說職場霸凌"},{"start":7751.71,"end":7776.699,"text":"私部門呢我們聽到民間部門就是勞資爭議那為什麼會是這樣子那我先從霸凌來分析因為在民間企業啊如果說主管對於他的屬下的表現不滿意他有絕對的人事的權利他可以把他開除他可以開除所以呢也沒有所謂的因為不能開除所以呢做一些要求而"},{"start":7777.796,"end":7790.669,"text":"而被要求者認為不合理就認為這是霸凌但是在公務機關因為公務員有身份保障甚至連考機要讓他剔除都要連續兩年考列平等"},{"start":7791.505,"end":7810.841,"text":"所以對於機關的人事管理來講上對下的管理來講當然因為身份保障使得這個管理的貫徹上會產生一個不如民間企業那麼的迅速跟直接那會產生衍生用其他的管理方式說得白一點或者說得不好聽一點因為不能夠開除你"},{"start":7811.602,"end":7826.137,"text":"所以呢就讓你覺得這個機關你帶不下去希望你自己找其他機關去這個說白了在公務機關的潛規則我們都了解一些主管的心態這種心態健不健康是不是我們要鼓勵的這是另當別論當然發生的情況"},{"start":7828.9,"end":7846.982,"text":"就是因為公務員有身份保障那麼主管在不能夠令其去職的情況之下希望他自己另謀高就調到其他機關去所以可能相對的選擇性的差別性的對他施予比較可能不盡合理的要求那麼這種的可能性是存在著的"},{"start":7847.864,"end":7869.028,"text":"那但是人事機關怎麼避免這樣的一個不當對待那麼其實在很多的猜情就可以看得出來以大家所熟知的北紀瑜分組的個案為例那麼該員他是不是有不當的不是不當 太多的操勤的假日的加班"},{"start":7870.917,"end":7884.806,"text":"該機關有沒有不合理的人事流動率這個人事人員都可以透過這些事後的跡象徵兆去研判該機關是有發生哪個部門已經有不當管理的現象"},{"start":7885.717,"end":7907.539,"text":"所以這個時候要靠人事人員而且人事人員就誠如我之前在我們院會對於決算報告對於審計長的質詢當中我也說過其實為什麼我們各公務機關人事政風主計必須中央一條邊因為這三個單位的三個部門的主管他等於是對該機關的首長"},{"start":7909.901,"end":7929.227,"text":"某個程度是輔助某個程度是監督要求他依法行政在人事的管理上在預算的動之上在一些相關弊案的處理上他不是由該機關首長可以一手包天有三個中央一條邊派來的人事主計政風從旁在要求這個機關首長必須依法執行"},{"start":7932.808,"end":7950.63,"text":"但是往往在機關尤其是市級以下的機關因為機關規模小天高黃地遠有時候機關首長跟這三位重要的幕僚的這個主管可能會有說難聽點同流合污的情況或者說這三位不敢"},{"start":7951.19,"end":7979.552,"text":"對於機關所長有太強硬的堅持或表現因此最後一道黃火線那時候我是要求審計長必須透過各地審計室在看年度決算報告的時候就可以從這三個中央一條邊的這三個主計證封人士從這三個線索去看一下有沒有證封對於相關的檢舉並沒有處理大家很好奇難道這個主計的審計報告看得到嗎"},{"start":7980.313,"end":8009.452,"text":"但是至少看得到什麼?看得到主計主任對於機關的簽核他的單據憑證有沒有那種把裝潢的費用首長的裝潢的費用報到我們執訓教室的費用來核銷的這當然看得到人事的部分也類似但是人事的部分審計他沒有辦法從預算的執行單來表達但是如果人事部門本身能夠建立透過AI的協助將我剛剛所說的機關內首長的人事要求"},{"start":8010.713,"end":8036.442,"text":"全部機關的管理的人事要求表現在員工的出差、加班、猜情、考機還有甚至人員的簽調、流動這些如果透過我們AI來建立一個模式的話那或許就能夠及早的看到這些警訊能夠提醒我們人事機關透過人總這邊在各機關派駐的人事人員"},{"start":8037.342,"end":8054.439,"text":"去予以瞭解有沒有出狀況如果有這套預警系統或許北京宜的個案的悲劇就可能及早的可以來遏止我們很難想像一個中基層的公務人員在受到機關手掌這樣一個"},{"start":8055.62,"end":8083.77,"text":"完全不合理的對待之下他能夠承受忍受那麼久而且這個現象已經持續很長一段時間了所以我對於21案提出來就是要求說我在我們目前人事總處提出的對行政院各相關運用人工智慧的研考當中跟你們這個預算到底有沒有致用關係你們編的這個預算有沒有拿來去調訓全國各行政機關的人事人員讓他熟悉這套工具的使用方法"},{"start":8084.29,"end":8105.541,"text":"甚至他們回去還可以促成該機關在導入人工智慧上面幫助各機關做好他們的人事效能的運用這個部分我講的比較長那希望人事長可以就這個部分做一個說明我看到你們的預算跟你們目前我們希望各機關在人工智慧的導入上到底有沒有關聯請說明"},{"start":8107.201,"end":8124.169,"text":"請任市長做回覆謝謝趙偉給我們這個機會說明事實上在整個人工智慧的一個推動就如同趙偉所提的我們跟數位發展部大概有一些分工他本身是資訊人員的20還有整個"},{"start":8127.891,"end":8135.375,"text":"所有政府機關人工智能的應用的整體的規劃在他那裡那人種我們承擔的是負責整個公務人員那種認知人工智慧認知的這個訓練這個是第一個層次的問題第二個剛才委員也特別提到我們能不能透過這個資訊系統事實上我們現在有完整的資訊系統"},{"start":8156.187,"end":8185.424,"text":"都可以去做分析哪一個區間底假如是一年內有一些不正常的離職率偏高或者有降料的比例偏高我這個部分從系統可以產出那這個部分我們也已經要求所有的人事主管必須要去分析這樣的資料然後主動會做兩件事第一個他要跟上級長官報告有這件事情因為有些主管不曉得"},{"start":8186.184,"end":8187.205,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8202.24,"end":8229.111,"text":"再來一個層次的問題坦白講我們目前因為大概召委知道我們有幾十萬的公務員要去做全面性的實體的training事實上是有困難可是我們有做了一個很大的努力我們跟人力學院我們開設了很多的數位學習課程讓大家一起去在最短的時間去了解人工智慧到底是怎樣"},{"start":8229.611,"end":8252.093,"text":"他帶來哪些好處他有哪些的風險我們有這樣的一個課程的一個規劃那到目前為止從9月份到目前來上課的好幾百萬的小時所以我想這一部分我們推廣而是還不錯當然我們明年還有更努力的一個成長的空間"},{"start":8253.894,"end":8269.634,"text":"我非常佩服就是昭緯剛才提的就是說人工智慧我們如何去善用善用很重要啦阿不然你有那個數據資料還是睡在那裡沒有去做分析嘛你分析完以後你採取的什麼動作採取的行動"},{"start":8272.157,"end":8285.203,"text":"對整個業務的推動對於整個風險的控管有做一些努力我覺得這是我們內部會去做訓練另外我這裡也特別跟召委報告一件事情"},{"start":8286.452,"end":8314.848,"text":"我們事實上過去這幾年我們有很好的傳統我們都有種子人才的訓練散佈在全國的中央跟地方我們都有資訊種子那資訊種子的部分我們明年會增加人工智慧以這些種子當核心擴散到所有因為這樣剛好符合昭偉所提的能夠快速的擴散到所有的公務通人都知道人工智慧是什麼啊我們怎麼來用"},{"start":8315.828,"end":8335.575,"text":"那剛才提到了那個token的問題我想這是一個剛開始階段讓新進同仁可以在最短的時間去找到最適用的一個人事法規的一個方式當然我們目前還在規劃更精進的方式以上報告"},{"start":8337.264,"end":8365.315,"text":"好 主席那本案是不是請人事長將您剛剛說的這個精神那就本案我本席所要求的跟你們預算所之應的關聯以一個主決的方式我們去朝你一下那我就可以接受用主決的方式來要求好 謝謝昭偉好 那這部分就請我們人事總書這邊擬一個主決議的內容再給我們鍾昭偉看一下好"},{"start":8376.24,"end":8402.287,"text":"好,那麼剛剛有兩個要求改組約的部分,我們到後面的主決再來做處理。好,那現在接下來我們剛剛因為是跳到先處理21案,那接下來第11案的部分,因為第9案也是主決案已經宣佈過,剛剛最後已經同意改組決的部分,我們到主決再處理。那現在第11案因為吳趙偉不在,吳幹事長不在,那我們就不予處理。"},{"start":8403.027,"end":8429.557,"text":"那第12案因爲陳委員的部分已經同意改主決,我們在主決的部分處理。第13案是翁委員的提案,請翁委員說明。好,有關於第13案的這個部分,其實我在這裡本席是這個之前我記得是不是也曾經有質詢過人事總處這裡,就針對現在全國軍公教員工待遇制止規定裡面,它有一個規定其實挺不合理的,就針對像是軍人"},{"start":8431.878,"end":8432.999,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬"},{"start":8448.468,"end":8462.312,"text":"如果人家在救血的話是不能夠請領教育補助費的。那麼事實上在我之前曾經有質詢過退輔會。退輔會其實很支持。他們認為說其實基於就是平等原則而且這個服務軍旅的"},{"start":8468.054,"end":8490.935,"text":"軍人不應該因為階級而有所區別更何況這個是子女的教育補助費所以在這裡的話他們是支持可以向上修正就是不分階級只要是有子女的這個正在學校讀書的都可以去給予這個教育補助費那麼人事總處這邊看起來你們是對這個議題是有意見嗎"},{"start":8495.998,"end":8513.806,"text":"我跟委員報告一下事實上這個議題應該不能只有從金人上校因為上校的待遇基本上會比較高然後如果這個議題要討論我們會從所有的教師還有公務人員一起一併來"},{"start":8515.407,"end":8529.987,"text":"我聽不懂你的意思你是說像我們現在如果以教師來講的話他是不分階級的只要是即便是教授或特聘教授他的子女是有這個在學的話也是可以請領教育補助費所以你意思說未來要砍嗎"},{"start":8533.443,"end":8545.942,"text":"報告主席跟委員,這個軍公教人員只要是退休五之後,原來依照行政院的規定都可以領子女教育補助,是106年,中央政府總預算有一個通案決議"},{"start":8547.023,"end":8576,"text":"叫我們要檢討說基於照顧弱勢跟對國家有重大犧牲貢獻的精神去做一個檢討所以100行政院在106年就有核定軍公教的話就是兩萬兩萬五以下才可以領月退月退休金兩萬五以下才可以領目前調整到兩萬八但是軍人的話因為他的服役特性退役年齡比較早子女還在就學所以我們是改案關接身份就是中校以下都發所以說實在一百"},{"start":8576.52,"end":8588.048,"text":"106學年度這些退伍的中校以下減少的比就是說退伍救援只減少16.86%不能領但是公教減少到78到97到98%是不能領的因為公教是採定額"},{"start":8592.671,"end":8606.969,"text":"然後居然是採關接那是有考慮到居然的服役特性所以只有中校以下是可以領上校以上是不行那公教的部分是兩萬八以下才可以領其實軍公教目前都有相關的條件限制"},{"start":8607.774,"end":8629.365,"text":"所以我聽起來本期聽起來我覺得更不合理所以為什麼退休的軍公教這個人員那麼只要是子女有在學的應該還是可以給予他們有教育補助對不對更何況您剛剛也說了整個退休金大幅的這個這個就是大幅的減少"},{"start":8630.922,"end":8647.098,"text":"但過去都還有軍公教退休人員的退休金高出還可以領現在反而是下降的時候又不能夠讓這些軍公教退休人員來支領其實軍公教人員對於國家的貢獻很大"},{"start":8648.399,"end":8671.07,"text":"所以應該要重新檢討這個事情全部都要恢復之前都要恢復就是只要是有子女在學的都可以去請領這個教育補助費這樣才能夠吸引到有更多優秀的軍公教人員優秀的年輕人來國家服務對不對來擔任這個軍公教"},{"start":8675.253,"end":8699.492,"text":"就是說目前委員這個提案是針對軍人那我們人總在看這個問題是希望從軍公教的那個橫平性來處理就是說如果可以的話好啊那這樣的話那就是全面檢討嘛對全面檢討然後呢就是朝向就是全面恢復之前的退休軍公教人員不分階級只要是子女在學的話都應該要一律給予補助"},{"start":8700.911,"end":8720.743,"text":"這才合理啊我跟委員報告一下啦那個不好意思我還在講一下就是你沒有去算過到底要增加多少的經費退休軍公教的人員如果他仍然有子女在學的話那人數應該也都很少我跟委員報告大概要7億多"},{"start":8723.651,"end":8748.48,"text":"公教非常多公教反而軍人上校子女的比較少以人數來講總需要經費一年大概要7億多所以如果說以軍人他的這個經費需求都比較少對那上校你說都上校關接他退伍如果說他的子女還在讀大學或研究所的話那代表他也很晚生這國家本來就應該照顧他們啊"},{"start":8749.864,"end":8756.777,"text":"因為今天聽這個人事長這樣說我就覺得其實我們政府真的是虧待軍公教"},{"start":8760.264,"end":8785.913,"text":"我覺得委員你不要說我們虧待金公教金公教是我們國家進步非常重要的基石所以我們窮盡一切努力去讓我們整個金公教不管在大義福利各方面更好首先必須要澄清這件事情那剛才委員提到的是其中一個區塊就是基因人裡面的上校因為這部分的人不多"},{"start":8786.733,"end":8814.779,"text":"所以委員這一個議題我在這裡我們同意我們會將退役的上校還有公教人員一併考慮納入整個分析我們會提書面報告麻煩委員支持不要跟我們凍結因為我們看的是前茂而不是一個區塊只有處理上校的話會造成所謂的相對不公平我們要考量的是整體的問題"},{"start":8816.475,"end":8830.836,"text":"市長,軍公教本來它的工作性質就不一樣本席已經不只一次的跟您這個說明就是軍公教的待遇都要另立法律而不是整個綁在一起看"},{"start":8832.891,"end":8846.73,"text":"軍人的工作他們的辛苦他們對國家的付出他們的時間被綁在軍隊裡面他們的情況是比其他的公教人員是更辛苦"},{"start":8848.211,"end":8865.366,"text":"公務人員教育人員各有不同的辛苦這本來就應該要切開來看的是今天是你們這個人事總處這裡你們只是為了要方便然後從一開始就把軍公教綁在一起然後什麼知己待遇各方面退休金條條件全部都放在一起看"},{"start":8866.673,"end":8889.55,"text":"但是他明明就是不同的工作性質更何況今天退府會都同意都願意支持這個上校以上的人員他的子女教育補助費是可以補助這筆錢是從哪裡來是應該退府會要編的是嗎是是那所以我不懂的就是人總這裡為什麼一直要擋"},{"start":8892.765,"end":8908.013,"text":"我跟委員講不是人總在擋我們是在考量事情要從金公教整體來衡量而不是單獨從哪一個區塊的人事的角度來看我們是overall在"},{"start":8909.973,"end":8929.858,"text":"我們講這同工同酬嘛不同工就不同酬不同的薪資資金這個標準現在軍公教就他的工作性質就是顯不相同那你們一時要把他放在一起那我也沒有看到說你們到底有沒有針對軍公教等等不同的性質然後去提出一個合理的一個待遇"},{"start":8932.067,"end":8955.127,"text":"規劃政策報告委員只是因為我們的僱主都是政府都是國家所以你就是一視同仁報告委員在那個這是依照立法院審查106年將政府總預算團決議去救金公教通盤檢討但是我們沒有考慮到基金人的服役的特性所以我們只有我們是用關接來定所以他影響層面非常少只有減少16.86%但是對公教人我們是採取定額就是說"},{"start":8959.35,"end":8960.191,"text":"我告訴你們努力的時間啊努力太久了啦"},{"start":8989.418,"end":9017.524,"text":"這明明就是一些簡單的事情就政府總預算裡面是非常非常小的但是呢你們給予這樣的一個比較稍微好一點點的這個福利待遇只是讓比較多的人會認為說哦未來來這個就是未來來當這個軍公教那總還是可以以在享受比較多一點的福利而且到倒退休了耶"},{"start":9023.512,"end":9031.246,"text":"簡單來說我認為說人事長這個你們在檢討軍公教自己待遇的這個部分"},{"start":9032.813,"end":9061.206,"text":"你們本來就應該積極的做從上個會期我也就提出了這個案子然後剛剛黃國昌委員倒是提醒我了本來是說你們年底之前就要提出來軍公教待遇的法制化的問題然後我那時候我有建議說是軍公教都要分開來定定因為依照你們現在不同的這個這個什麼公務人員教育人員還有軍事人員的條例他本來就是待遇就是要另一法律定制的"},{"start":9062.458,"end":9090.912,"text":"對你們要從你們要積極的檢討而不是一直拖一直拖拖到現在12月了然後在談到預算的時候然後你們又在說我會努力我會努力努力了很久了現在你們行政機關啊我不好講這是現在行政機關怠惰法案不積極提出結果變成我們立法委員我們速度都比你們快然後我們提出來法案之後呢又說我們什麼又違法又違憲不跟你們討論"},{"start":9093.871,"end":9122.585,"text":"沒有道理我說真的這個案子我堅持啦就凍結一百萬然後等到你們這個這個你們當然這個你們說要重新檢討軍公教的這個待遇知己條例然後對於這個退休的軍公教人員部分一併檢討也可以或者是說是你們就乾脆現在就是先承諾要改善上校階以上的因為這是比例非常少啊對不對"},{"start":9123.887,"end":9152.062,"text":"我這裡一定要跟委員講要處理這個事情有些是絕對公平跟相對公平的問題我們不可能只有處理上校如果上校的問題要處理我們退休的公教人員因為剛才委員一直很重視金公教金公教這是國家很重要進步的一個基石所以要考量這個事情我們全部一起考量不會只有考慮上校這是我們行政院的立場"},{"start":9153.868,"end":9177.594,"text":"好吧那你們就一併考量吧就還是凍結一百萬委員報告委員那個文字上可不可以有一些修正因為他不是不是在軍公教待遇資給要點的規定他是行政院106年的一個願函在待遇資給要點裡面是沒有提到那個退休五軍公教人員的部分所以修訂全國軍公教待遇資給要點的規定這個這個文字可能要刪除因為他規定不是在這裡面"},{"start":9178.901,"end":9179.782,"text":"這是文字上的修正。"},{"start":9197.011,"end":9226.357,"text":"那這個部分就是說委員的提案...通案檢討,檢討是說要你們往上提升,我現在一直要你們往上提升,而不是往下砍啊。好不好,那個處長,你把那個函發給大家看一下好不好,因為你們還沒有到其他委員有意見,沒辦法表達。因為你已經把意見非常表達清楚,那因為你的案子比較多齁,你還有26案,27、29到31,要不要主案一併先提出來,那他們可以整體的來做回應,好不好?"},{"start":9227.81,"end":9232.071,"text":"那實際上等他們把那個表那個函拿出來我們先處理第26案好那其實從26案到31案其實都是針對人事總處就這個資訊設備維運費用等等的經費的編列簡單來說就是"},{"start":9251.958,"end":9272.632,"text":"他們在經費編列上面也沒有依據行政院主計總處所說的資訊服務委外經費的估算原則原則上要不可以高於前一個年度為原則而且呢就整個資訊服務委外經費通常來說它的維運經費大概製造在"},{"start":9273.973,"end":9297.712,"text":"與他原來的系統建制費用大概5%到15%的這樣的一個區間也就是說你一開始的系統建制的費用高那個是合理的但是之後的維運費用不應該是跟原來建制費用的這個經費是一致的或是非常接近他的維運費大概就是在原來的費用大概5%到15%"},{"start":9300.054,"end":9313.79,"text":"中間是比較合理的這些我都有去問過所以就現在人事總處他現在編的這些經費坦白說都過高都過高那麼這次本席在這幾個案子裡面其實"},{"start":9316.052,"end":9332.361,"text":"都有發現這樣的問題所以就提出大概原則上就是3減1成的預算大概就以3減1成的預算為原則那麼從26案到31案應該都是秉持這樣的原則所以那26案到27以及29到31都是同一個屬性那是不是請任總這邊機關代表做統一的回應"},{"start":9345.559,"end":9354.495,"text":"主席各位委員好那有關那個翁委員的提案我這邊先做一下說明就是說我們完全是會依照那個主計從處資訊的預算"},{"start":9356.516,"end":9380.314,"text":"的那個估算原則來進行那我們這邊在26案跟27案這邊要說一個說明這個是我們的那個這個不是軟體的部分這個是我們因為我們有負責全國人事單位每天的人事系統的運作有8000多個機關那這是我們人事雲端資料中心他的那個主機設備還有軟體的這個"},{"start":9383.936,"end":9412.794,"text":"等等的這個license的部分所以這兩個部分其實這個都沒有經過評選這個我們大部分都是會核實的會透過那個國家那個共同供應契約然後如實的去做那因為這幾年主要是在那個資安的要求的部分因為我們是A級的而且保有那個人事資料所以在那個資安的部分他有很多需要去增防比如說我們要增加那些nreport去預先去"},{"start":9413.795,"end":9429.111,"text":"知道說有沒有被攻擊等等所以在這個26跟27這個部分主要就是在治安的部分還有這近幾年來我們要預測說他有沒有被那個攻擊的部分"},{"start":9430.392,"end":9442.906,"text":"案的部分呢這個是我們服務型政府2.0的計劃那事實上剛可能委員會有一點點誤會就是說我們並沒有高出前一年的而是說我們的案子因為我們這邊"},{"start":9444.568,"end":9472.08,"text":"人力沒有那麼多所以我們會把相似我們會經過我們內部先規劃把同樣的案子可以在同一個系統下去開發發展的我們不要再擴張不要說為了每一個功能就開發一個系統平台我們會再原有的去徵修然後讓他更更適合用那如果是不符合的我們就會把它下架所以我們是務實的在規劃所以並沒有是並不是可是很難讓"},{"start":9473.24,"end":9500.211,"text":"外面理解因為我們是要做一個行政的檢測那個行政的成本所以我們其實都有符合就是說在那個維護的部分都是如果是舊的系統其實我們都是低於10%以下的維護會是這樣進行只是說每一個專案是評選案的話它裡面的系統有些是徵修的有些就是原先的系統延續嘛因為我們系統是必須要延續比如說我們現在提供給"},{"start":9500.871,"end":9512.381,"text":"全國公務員這個買data的服務那裡面有很多都增加那個線上的比如說健檢的那我們第一年可能是只是給他看他健檢的項目那第二年我們就會讓他在線上去提出他個人的健檢的那個"},{"start":9516.665,"end":9542.415,"text":"提出的他的申請類似這樣子的互動所以每一年越做越深然後系統就會越做越完善所以我們的服務是原先有人事機構然後現在是增加到全國公人員所以這個部分會比較很難以讓委員來理解那事實上我們這個我們的資訊系統都是百需求那我們每年呢也會收集各個人事單位的需要去徵兇那每年都有超過200件以上的"},{"start":9546.136,"end":9547.098,"text":"建議案,所以請委員可以支持我們,我們這邊的經費估算是滿務實的。"},{"start":9554.83,"end":9583.145,"text":"好那個做個整理啦齁那跟翁委員說明一下因為剛剛你是26、27、29、30、31五個案那麼剛剛機關代表意思是說這都是資訊相關預算那是懇請免於檢列那如果要凍結的話有一個額數那是不是機關代表是不是希望說免於檢列但是有凍結的額數的想法還是翁委員這邊可以同意這五個案子是免於檢列但是以凍結的方式來處理"},{"start":9585.202,"end":9607.495,"text":"因為他本來就編得過高啦然後基於經費的尊潔原則那再加上這個你們都是不斷的擴充擴充一擴充到哪裡也不曉得然後計劃書上面也沒有看得很清楚到底在每個項目裡面是跟之前的到底有差別在哪裡擴充了一些什麼內容但我覺得這些都要清楚的報告"},{"start":9609.225,"end":9618.15,"text":"對然後我有去詢問了一些有關於這個資訊廠商還有這個資訊領域方面的教授他們也認為說你們如果說都是用的這個資訊維護費為運之名然後但是編列的經費確實是不合理高於一般民間蠻多的那麼在這樣的一個情況之下我認為說還是要簡列可是呢簡列你如果說"},{"start":9638.743,"end":9649.651,"text":"其實一層也很少只是把你們去年就是今年增編的減少而已耶所以翁媛媛的意思是說我們這五個案子檢列一個金額是不是這意思我的意思是說應該維持我原來寫的"},{"start":9666.168,"end":9683.882,"text":"我跟翁委員報告非常佩服翁委員對整個我們資訊預算花很多時間去了解甚至也請教一些專家因為我本身資訊專業的我必須要說明三件事情第一個"},{"start":9685.137,"end":9701.298,"text":"我們現在人種很多的系統是處理分散在全國8000多個機關本來他們各自獨立開發維護的我們慢慢收納所以我們會有新的信任需求這是第一個第二個"},{"start":9702.76,"end":9721.236,"text":"這幾年資安事件頻傳所以我們一直發很大的effort是在資訊安全的強化資訊安全的強化大家也知道資訊安全的投資事實上是花很多錢可是它的效益就是讓事情不要發生第三件事情我這裡也要報告"},{"start":9722.197,"end":9736.045,"text":"說真的這幾年資訊人才包含私部門的你這些人才不好找他們的待遇都拉上來那我們如果預算不朝一個合理的比例提升的話坦白講"},{"start":9737.186,"end":9751.94,"text":"這些廠商沒有辦法找到Qualified的人來提供優質的服務給政府機關即這三個理由拜託委員真的不要看因為我們已經用最少的預算在違應我們政府的系統"},{"start":9753.671,"end":9770.144,"text":"如果委員你真的執意要做這件事情坦白講我們人種明年的整個資金系統的維運非常辛苦坦白講為什麼這些資金系統我們資訊廠商我們都要去拜託他來幫我們做因為"},{"start":9772.285,"end":9790.129,"text":"理順都沒理順嘛我一定要拜託他來不然你換一家廠商他要重新再設備再投資我覺得現在以目前國內的資訊人力還有治安人力的坦白講沒有新的廠商他願意承接新的案子"},{"start":9792.618,"end":9815.591,"text":"這裡那個我擦一下不好意思所以我就跟人事長我跟速發部也講過速發部編了那麼多的高約併顧的缺但是為什麼用沒有人來禁用的很少因為資訊行業在目前社會它是社會上各行業中薪資算相當高的我們的速發部重視"},{"start":9816.992,"end":9839.872,"text":"拜託我們公務人員薪酬的那個框架用約聘僱的方式要來禁用薪水也變得很高也被我們立法院審議預算有質疑但是儘管如此還是招不到人招不太多人那可見目前我們政府機關的用人的薪資框架縱使是用約聘僱人員、聘用人員都很難追得上民間的薪資水準在這種情況之下"},{"start":9840.532,"end":9868.755,"text":"我問我們行政機關不去改善你沒有辦法自己聘用資訊人員你就勢必要委託其他資訊公司來幫你做服務那他的服務他也要花錢去請這些高薪的資訊人員來幫你服務那這個情況看起來他的薪資他的服務費用當然會隨著這些人員的平均薪資節節上升嘛大概我聽起來您的意思就是這樣子說我們自己沒有人所以我們要外面聘那外面聘的人為什麼這個服務費用一直上升因為薪資一直在追"},{"start":9869.375,"end":9894.921,"text":"那所以終究來思考到底我們人總有沒有花一個去努力去突破這個問題你與其每年每年用業務會的方式委外給外面的資訊公司來幫你做服務很多安全你還不能完全掌控但是如果你能夠自己突破這個薪酬的框架能夠花出高的薪水聘到我們政府專業要用的資訊人員"},{"start":9896.101,"end":9915.115,"text":"等同你要發給委外廠商的錢拿來用薪水的方式發給我們自己聘用的治安人員這個才能是長久之計啦但是你們過去一直覺得受限於法定框架沒有辦法突破那造成的結果我們出得起這麼我們出得起相較的錢你怎麼找得到老虎跟獅子"},{"start":9916.737,"end":9943.839,"text":"我們人管常常說的你只出了你香蕉的錢怎麼找到老虎跟獅子那外面老虎是在幫你打仗你當然要給他牛肉啊那沒有牛肉牛肉價格一年一年提高這樣整體來看你與其是要每年去支付這麼很高的牛肉的費用還是你要考慮你的薪資結構可以調整我是先插一個話幫不好意思翁委員我是說這個問人事總處要去面對啦難怪我們委員一直覺得說你們為什麼每年的資訊服務費用都節約上升因為"},{"start":9944.6,"end":9958.181,"text":"外界行情、諮詢人員的行情越來越高啊那既然這樣子為什麼不自己想辦法突破我們的薪資結構聘請我們專屬的諮詢人員來為我們公務機關服務這個部分人總要思考一下那其他委員有沒有要詢問的還是我們請公務委員繼續,好請"},{"start":9959.935,"end":9982.235,"text":"我要講就是因為我們這裡我有去統計你們這些年來所做的這個資訊各個平台的資訊專案然後包含系統擴充專案等等就看起來你們的廠商都集中在特定的業者身上而且經費都非常高啊簡單來說其實透過你們一個計畫就可以去幫一家資訊就可以去養一家資訊公司了"},{"start":9987.469,"end":10016.898,"text":"就像我講的你如果說只是優化或是擴充它不可能會跟你原來的一開始建制的系統的金額是相當的更何況這已經是長年編列我們現在也不過只是簡列一層而已是將你們今年提高的那一層做一些刪減仍然是維持可能在113年的水準"},{"start":10018.741,"end":10027.892,"text":"再說我還要講一個重點就是到底擴充了什麼優化了什麼怎麼每一年看起來都是同樣今天也沒有看到說實際上你們優化擴充的項目內容"},{"start":10032.353,"end":10050.149,"text":"這不能講說因為項目太多了所以就無法列舉這個其實都很抽象的你到底被攻擊了多少次什麼樣的類型是最容易被攻擊的或是需要改善的這要有個清楚的列表對這基本上我們也發現現在政府機關的經費"},{"start":10052.071,"end":10073.829,"text":"第一個花在媒體業務宣導費的部分金額也很高但是你看不出來還有什麼KPI也不是很清楚它的效果效能到底這個宣傳的成效如何也不清楚另外一個部分就是發現在做資訊設備的優化擴充項目也是不清不楚"},{"start":10075.714,"end":10097.197,"text":"我認為這是要整個檢討了先從人種這邊開始先做示範好好的把它整理出來這樣我們才知道說到底現在我們的這個全國的這些資訊系統項目改善了些什麼"},{"start":10098.533,"end":10112.971,"text":"我真的謝謝謝謝那個委員給我們很完整的一個資訊第一個我必須要提的就是可能我們在整理資料所以這幾"},{"start":10114.553,"end":10137.454,"text":"這幾週我們一直安排時間想去拜會翁委員就是因為有些細項的東西我們必須要去跟委員當面報告因為委員比較忙然後第二個事情就是說我們在僱用承商的過程中每年大概平均每兩年都會review一次如果不qualify我們就換掉"},{"start":10138.675,"end":10154.39,"text":"到目前為止已經有4家不扣留來的廠商我們就換掉了因為他的service level agreement服務的品質沒有辦法符合我們需求我們就換不是說你賭投了啦你也可以做幾次啦沒有這回事過去這段期間我們已經有換了4家廠商"},{"start":10156.972,"end":10184.975,"text":"然後現在留下來的是在服務我們除了標準的服務要符合我們的需求就是我們有一個叫SLAService Level Agreement一定要符合我們的標準如果不符合的話我們也是會把這家廠商換掉所以在這樣的一個基準有一個很嚴謹的標準底下所以這些廠商可以留下來繼續幫我們服務的大概服務品質都會符合那剛才中召委提到了"},{"start":10186.149,"end":10190.873,"text":"我們這兩年事實上在這些資訊人員的待遇事實上有往上不是比較緊張而已,我們之前有變成假髮,古髮是沒有啦,但是假髮應該是有啦,所以我們很多不管是治安的還是"},{"start":10202.282,"end":10202.302,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":10218.272,"end":10235.719,"text":"我這邊還要再講那個因為吳委員這邊有要表示意見喔好好沒有再好那繼續好了我其實我是有做功課的你們剛剛講說這個廠商集中的問題我現在清楚跟你們講好幾個系統專案我們統計10年大概就是零群電腦、開發科技、全頂資訊"},{"start":10242.72,"end":10260.201,"text":"還有支通電等等這幾家都是承包你們大概10年以上對如果他們做得好OK但是每一年的承包的金額都是很高不斷的只是系統的擴充優化那為什麼要花這麼多的錢"},{"start":10262.552,"end":10273.949,"text":"我認為說這個部分你們真的是要好好寫份報告了為什麼這些你們現在開發的系統十年來都是給同一家公司而且價格沒有減少"},{"start":10275.988,"end":10294.697,"text":"越編越高我寫歐委員說的啊我們會寫個書篇報告給委員我說明我先做一個處理啦歐委員這五個案子都跟資訊系統有關事實上在前一幕他也是針對資訊系統的部分也是表達意見那我剛剛會請你們調一些資料出來不過那個是屬於聯合辦公大樓的事情"},{"start":10295.197,"end":10315.853,"text":"那這個部分是不是這樣子我們先暫保留那剛剛委員有點到了幾個資訊服務廠商那過去他們10年內他們曾經接受過哪些案子的服務我想你們未來的書面報告一定要包含那是不是有一個簡單的待會可以提出來的整理一下讓其他委員知道一下翁委員的資料是翁委員所知拿到的嘛"},{"start":10316.553,"end":10345.232,"text":"那我是說這個部分因為翁委員剛剛在前一幕因為前一幕的時候你有提到資訊系統那我是覺得這些基本的資訊是不是讓我們委員有個掌握我們會一起參與討論那不然的話這五個提案你再談我們覺得原則上你講的有那個道理但是該怎麼處理現在機關代表人長是希望說用一個書面報告但是要涵蓋什麼內容我這就要好好處理好不好那翁委員完再"},{"start":10347.053,"end":10368.869,"text":"這樣好了我具體的建議啦就是凍結的部分我全都希望就凍結到時候看你們報告那簡列的部分你們覺得說我之前簡列的10%過高那麼就是同解5%那也讓你們就是在下年度在執行相關經費的時候可以更加"},{"start":10370.971,"end":10384.225,"text":"審慎。然後該花則花,不該花的話就要節省。現在政府的預算各方面的經費支出都要節省,這樣可以嗎?然後凍結的部分就等到你們報告提出來,沒有問題的話那就解凍。那個吳委員請。"},{"start":10389.636,"end":10407.468,"text":"謝謝有看到翁委員所提的好幾個案子都是聚焦在這個資訊相關的採購包括軟體包括硬體那我的觀點是這樣啦分享一下就是說政府部門對於各項採購他必然有幾個要件第一個編了一個預算"},{"start":10409.454,"end":10436.623,"text":"第2個呢依據你的預算然後你要寫一個標規嗎你到底是要採購什麼要求廠商要達到什麼樣子的服務什麼樣的內容然後會寫出這個標規嗎然後標規之後就公開上網招標所以招標來的就是大家就是要尋公開的原則那問委員一直覺得為什麼都是這幾家除非是涉及"},{"start":10438.324,"end":10453.92,"text":"我不曉得是不是有什麼我委員要講的是有什麼舞弊嗎我不知道但我說這個程序上就是這樣預算有多少然後寫一個合理的標規那標規的重點是要達到什麼樣子的服務然後去做公開採購"},{"start":10455.945,"end":10466.994,"text":"對不對然後採購之後如果執行上確實有一些不達標準的你們本來就要依合約去究責去要求嗎這是一個政府對於任何的採購簡單的ABC"},{"start":10470.646,"end":10490.843,"text":"那尊重各個委員的監督的權責那我覺得因為翁委員有請你們要寫報告我只是聽了一段時間我覺得對於整個內容翁委員所提的我聽到的是你們做不好都是這些廠商優化在哪裡"},{"start":10491.764,"end":10508.445,"text":"我覺得比較抽象那你們趕快去拜訪翁委員好那翁委員也應當要很具體的提出您認為他們哪裡哪個項目做不好哪個項目該做而沒做哪個項目根本不需要做"},{"start":10509.346,"end":10537.97,"text":"我想我們對於公部門的任何的預算監督都是這樣否則在一個抽象的邏輯裡面去做抽象的陳述然後要你們提出抽象的答案寫出抽象的報告我也不知道你們怎麼寫所以趕快去拜訪翁委員也許翁委員私下會告訴你們他關切的點在哪裡這樣才能夠解決問題啦否則光一個做不好優化這個東西我也不知道怎麼改善嘛"},{"start":10539.073,"end":10565.084,"text":"好那這個東西我們當然未來我們尊重提案的委員我也很期待看到你們相對具體的對於內容的精進這樣對於監督我們想才是更正面的事情我是提出這樣子的一個補充好那先我們報告那翁委員跟吳委員因為吳委員有提出一個想法那翁委員這個案子這五六案我們是不是有兩個處理方式翁委員先暫時停下先等一下我要先回復一下剛剛吳士堯委員這個"},{"start":10567.685,"end":10591.553,"text":"他不了解這個狀況,其實我辦公室的同仁已經跟人事總處這裡有進行過溝通。對,可是他們跟我回報的,我認為仍然是不清不楚。我現在所講的並不是抽象,並不是具體。如果說是有這個無私要委員,你認真去看我所寫的提案你就會知道。我每一下我都計算得非常的清楚的。"},{"start":10592.802,"end":10613.967,"text":"所以並不是說是我給這個人總有一個不合理的要求是他們自己說這個項目太多沒有辦法列舉嗎如果是這樣的話就麻煩你每一個項目你都平台你們到底做什麼你們這幾年做了些什麼優化了什麼從你們標案到最後的這個執行報告"},{"start":10616.513,"end":10619.074,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這一份資料已經送到委員辦公室"},{"start":10644.045,"end":10653.075,"text":"可能的話就是麻煩委員給我一個時間我親自去報告啦我自己去報告啦有幾頁20幾頁我們現場有三位委員除了翁委員之外你們是一兩位委員還有陳委員"},{"start":10664.126,"end":10691.937,"text":"這樣好了 那個主席這邊建議委員會兩個處理方式啦一個就是翁委員這第13案以及第26、27還有29、30、31這6個案子齁我們有一個方式有一個是暫保留但是呢我們如果現在今天12點之前有辦法你們因為他有的要檢列有的要保留嘛有的要凍結嘛那你們機關代表是不是你們覺得檢列的部分你們多少可以承受"},{"start":10692.957,"end":10710.729,"text":"動輸的部分你們覺得多少不會影響到明年度的預算執行?你們先有個斟酌,因為這個金額加起來是一筆數字,我建議你們先衡量一下。另外一個方式就是剛剛吳委員說的,這6個案種就保留,保留之後我們在送院會協商之前,"},{"start":10711.289,"end":10725.181,"text":"如果說人總可以跟翁委員能夠做了報告之後取得了一個共識那我們就按照那個時候翁委員的同意的情況之下去處理這是兩種方式一個是暫保留你們現在趕快算一下翁委員所提出的減業數"},{"start":10728.27,"end":10753.282,"text":"動結數你們情況哪些可以承受那另外一個就是等到我們今天保留那你們再去拜訪翁委員說明這兩個方式啦那你們已經在印資料了嘛那不然我就先以暫保的方式讓他們資料送來那如果真的人事長很希望能夠再爭取跟翁委員說明的時間那到時候我們把這幾個案子就保留然後呢在院會之前"},{"start":10753.982,"end":10768.189,"text":"因為協商之前,人事長去跟翁委員做說明,這樣可以嗎?好,我們先暫保,因為呢,我們第二幕還有很多案子啦,翁委員可不可以?欸,那這樣的話,我可能,我們待會還是就現場協商一下。欸,我了解,他們讓他們算一下。然後,對,算一下。好,讓他們算一下。剪裂數跟凍結數。所以我這可以整個併案嗎?那可可以,你的部分都可以整個併,那就是說剪裂數跟三減數齁,剪裂數跟凍結數。因為你的凍結的部分,是要書面報告時的凍資嘛,對不對?對。所以這個部分我們讓機關代表去算一下。齁。"},{"start":10783.457,"end":10797.813,"text":"我們趕快的把因為前面還有那個第一幕的部分因為吳衛允也到了剛剛第一幕我們也是暫保留那我們很快的看一下那麼我們剛剛已經進行到13案那麼16案的部分我同意改為主決議"},{"start":10800.196,"end":10820.465,"text":"事項你們已經來報告過了那時候因為還沒有看到主決議我就沒有簽字那第21案那已經剛剛說改為主決議了第22案我們就不予處理第24案也是一樣上次有報告但是我沒拿到書面所以請改為主決議的書面趕快提供第25案不予處理那第26、27那麼剛剛已經說暫保留了第28案剛剛有處理嗎"},{"start":10828.972,"end":10857.774,"text":"二十八案已經改為主決議了那麼以上呢這第二幕的部分改為主決議的部分我們就一項一項回過頭來開始做確認先從好那我再回處理好那麼現在我們先從主決議第九案開始那麼主決議內容林委員的部分請問機關代表可以接受嗎主決議就不用再請問同意了"},{"start":10858.86,"end":10875.341,"text":"那第9案改為主決議已簽字了第10案改為主決議已簽字了第12案陳俊宇委員的也改成主決議也簽字了是這樣嗎陳委員第14案也改為主決議也簽字了第15案也併14案還有17案"},{"start":10877.163,"end":10904.564,"text":"18案、19案都並14案改為主決議,同意了。那麼第23案陳委員的部分也同意改主決議了。好,那第二幕除了暫保留的部分,我們現在回過來看第一幕。那第一幕呢,因為剛剛暫保留的時候呢,有吳委員跟翁委員的兩、有三個提案在場。那是不是請那個吳委員,你在第一幕的部分、第二案的部分,你有提出凍結的要求,您是不是做一個說明?"},{"start":10907.679,"end":10937.18,"text":"那個11案是我之前也一直在關心那就是我們的心理健康價的部分那如何在還沒有心理健康價之前我們的所有的EAP的方案都要到位那後來總統在健康台灣的這個專案裡頭也已經要求很具體的那全序部也接到這個訊息所以我想人事總處也不用再每次回答我都千篇一律是卡在全序部"},{"start":10937.78,"end":10961.707,"text":"好那現在考試院全序部都對於要來落實公務同仁的心理健康價有一定的共識所以就是要知道你們後續什麼時候怎麼樣來規劃大概是這樣子的一個要求那因為新的年度我想明年好像還是那個總長你要不要簡單人事長要不要跟我說一下你們的規劃的期程大概是什麼我再用一點點時間好不好"},{"start":10966.528,"end":10990.255,"text":"這個部分因為在總統宣誓之後我已經跟那個司部長有溝通過了他們會盡快針對那個心理健康家的一些規劃進行整個相關法規的一個作業就是要往這方向推進那有沒有一個可能的時間的落點"},{"start":10994.082,"end":10997.383,"text":"我相信下個會期應該要有機會把它那個來實現吧"},{"start":11017.591,"end":11035.12,"text":"好,那我們在這裡做成記錄好不好,我11案等下也改組決議啦齁,但是就是下...11案已經那個不予處理了,就是第二案我講11案啦第二案第二案第二案,我現在在講11對,因為...好,沒關係,沒有,我現在在講第11,好,沒關係"},{"start":11038.976,"end":11060.835,"text":"下會期提出我們的心理健康價你們跟全序部共同研議的一個做法好不好那下會期我就等你們的報告喔好不好那我11案我後面有病有沒有那個委員剛剛我們11案的時候不可以處理我後面也有好我3、4案也有好沒問題謝謝那第2案是改組決議是不是"},{"start":11062.262,"end":11064.224,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11078.641,"end":11099.028,"text":"第三案資訊的部分因為剛剛翁委員在後面的五個案子也都是資訊那剛剛我們都是暫保留看有沒有書面給翁委員或者說我們這幾案都保留在院會協商之前再去跟翁委員做說明另外翁委員這邊還有一個是第四案的部分"},{"start":11102.827,"end":11115.192,"text":"第四案的部分就是說那個水電啊還有那個機關的分攤的設備等等對那我知道我說請他們去找那些資料嘛那這樣好不好 崩委員"},{"start":11116.328,"end":11141.856,"text":"因為第4案的部分剛我們聽了之後包括黃總也認為說這個其實是聯合辦公大樓他們4個還是5個部會分攤的部分那希望他們提一個完整的書面報告那是不是這樣子第4案的部分我們就以他們提供這些內容來作為一個處理方式就是因為他們4、5個部會共同分攤的啦"},{"start":11144.312,"end":11159.415,"text":"好那第三案的部分你的第三部分呢我們剛剛就說了嘛第三案跟你後面五個案子都是資訊設備嘛那可不可以我知道我們另外分別處理我們會分別處理那我們這樣的第一幕就可以先把它完成了就是那個五委員的部分"},{"start":11160.296,"end":11182.313,"text":"他是第二案他是改組決議那如果您第四案也可以改書面報告那我們就可以來把第一幕的部分做個處理那第三 你的第三案是資訊設備那第三案的資訊設備在第一幕的部分跟第二幕的資訊設備我們可以用一個一致性的處理方式那這樣子大概我們第一幕跟第二幕就都有經過處理了"},{"start":11183.994,"end":11208.396,"text":"這樣好了,因為第四案的部分會議是要看整個整體的報告嘛,就看管理委員會這裡是怎麼列,但是確實是編得太高了啦。那我的想法是說,要不然就是,簡列金額就酌減,那但是凍結還是要凍。然後請你們再提,就是等到報告看,提出來之後呢再來看。那個,我也想齁。"},{"start":11209.949,"end":11232.391,"text":"要不要左減就減了啦那他們報告照題但就不要動因為那個這兩件事情因為你同時處理喔又是減又是動我們等一下處理兩次啊你看看是要左減然後還是提個書面報告不然就是一個凍結那提書面報告機關代表你們看呢因為我是希望翁委員可以接受好那就內班就減嘛就不動"},{"start":11233.437,"end":11256.328,"text":"割減多少金額呢?你們覺得可以割減多少?報告委員,沒辦法,因為幾個機關為了這些錢,我們花很多時間在那裡精算,真的是...我沒有看到你們報告啊。那個資料...因為您是真的成長很多啦。什麼時候資料可以送過去?那..."},{"start":11263.837,"end":11276.169,"text":"我們盡快把那個資料,因為所有資料都在管理小組那裡,我們會去跟他要一個咖啡送到委員那裡,因為這樣算上的差不多10萬、15萬的空間,很少的啦,因為大家為了討論那些事,大家也是"},{"start":11284.734,"end":11305.356,"text":"因為每一個人的口袋的預算都很緊後來等於就是說也考慮到大院會通過的預算增加太多不可能所以所有的項目事實上大家都很核實在評估我覺得現在的問題就是這些剛才報告的三個項目"},{"start":11307.245,"end":11329.751,"text":"一個是水電費的部分嘛一個是那個設備改善嘛一個是管委會因為要請人家的人事費也會增加幾%嘛3%這樣大概有幾個顧面我們會整理盡快12點以前有沒有可能送過來就是跟管委會那裡12點以前"},{"start":11332.29,"end":11360.619,"text":"還是翁委員那個我跟委員會報告一下聽起來因為剛剛講到的他們本來是一包一包裡面包括大樓的管理人員包括水電支出包括這個設備的更新那其中呢這個水電的部分是翁委員過去在預算場都很在意的那是不是除了水電之外其他的要分攤的管理人員跟設備更新的部分你們譬如說左減個五萬塊那其他水電的部分我們並通案處理"},{"start":11361.559,"end":11376.054,"text":"因為水電的部分那個是不是只有你們遇到整個聯合辦公大樓的水電有沒有高估這個都可以做通案處理那我們等於是第4案的部分我們就註記一下除水電外通案處理外我們其他部分那麼減列5萬減列5萬那就不用減了啦因為那個是設備那個是設備"},{"start":11384.976,"end":11400.762,"text":"還是你要因為水電的部分是您剛剛發言所關切的嘛那設備的分攤這個那個是拿出來報帳是白紙黑字的那除非這四個部會通通把他們的這個設備更新的部分拿出來檢討我這樣我那我這樣我動解我還是要保留然後檢驗的部分的話檢5萬真的是叫我就不要檢了啊對啊"},{"start":11414.554,"end":11436.401,"text":"至少減個五十萬,這邊五十萬,然後凍減五十萬,然後看他報告好不好?就這樣減五十萬沒辦法,因為管理委員會是大家合意制,針對每一個項目大家很精算過的。我如果在這邊少五十萬,如果是這一個科目是單獨我人總內部在使用的,我們比較有那個"},{"start":11437.361,"end":11447.884,"text":"空間去處理現在是管委會他一個公視算下來大家按照你的坪數多少分配多少也是一個固定的啦那如果沒有的話就保留吧保留送鞋商就是就我就就就都不用動了"},{"start":11468.743,"end":11478.72,"text":"又保留啦保留好 那麼我們等於就是第四案啦那資訊的部分呢要不要"},{"start":11479.841,"end":11504.418,"text":"因為當中要變成說我們第一幕的有兩個部分第二案是屬於資訊第四案是屬於水電及其他設備更新那這兩個如果都保留那就會處理上怎樣呢資訊的部分並同翁委員的在第二幕的五個案就通通是以資訊的方式由人總去跟翁委員報告如果能在院會協商前取得決定那這幾個案子就做那樣的處理"},{"start":11506.819,"end":11518.468,"text":"那這是一個處理方式啦那水電的部分那也是並我們院會協商的時候的水電的部分並同處理那翁委員覺得這樣子嗎"},{"start":11521.864,"end":11544.126,"text":"對,那就是水電,因為你的第三案是資訊嘛,第四案是水電及其他嘛,那這兩個分別,第三案的資訊是救您的部分,另外第二幕還有五個案子,那個部分就任總去跟您做說明,看你的意思。那第四案的部分因為是水電是通案,那個部分就看院會協商水電的部分怎麼處理,您覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":11545.14,"end":11547.1,"text":"第一幕的第三案跟第四案我們就保留啦"},{"start":11571.453,"end":11595.712,"text":"第三案第一案保留那這樣第一幕就把它處理掉了因為第二案已經改組決議了好那接下來第二幕的部分呢我們剛剛有還有第13案第13案的話就是13案的部分因為他送來一個函這剛剛拿到了就是剛剛有提到人事總處說這個函是立法院的決議還是什麼"},{"start":11598.137,"end":11598.337,"text":"是同意10萬嗎?"},{"start":11623.041,"end":11634.433,"text":"我同意,沒有,我說10萬沒有效果,所以還是維持100萬,他們才會繼續的提出。那金管代表您,因為,其實我看...那也是,只要他們盡早提出就解凍啊。"},{"start":11636.773,"end":11662.585,"text":"對,否則拖太久,我們已經等了一年了耶!從2月到12月,現在已經12月了。委員可不可以動50萬,動一半就好。剛剛有跟委員說明,就是現在在補充一個...也包含黃國昌委員也很在意啊!這是,那個,我們就有在補充那個,就是那個願函的部分,它不是定在那個...願函是願函,檢討是檢討嘛!對,對,對,我們會檢討,我們會檢討。是啊,所以已經是整個檢討要提出來啊!那那個修訂,那個待遇資格要點那個文字可能要刪除,我們就檢討這個願函好不好?"},{"start":11664.719,"end":11676.916,"text":"還有一併連那個待遇自己條例一起檢討．那個部分那個黃國昌委員有說我們12月底送來他就不動不散這樣子我們12月底會送進來"},{"start":11679.273,"end":11683.978,"text":"報告委員那個待遇資給要點是規定現職人員不規定退休人員所以如果要檢討退休人員一定是檢討那個函所以我們是建議那個那個修正那個待遇資給要點那個文字可以用那個願函來替代"},{"start":11704.617,"end":11719.02,"text":"因為待遇支給要點沒有規範退休的軍公教人員他規定都是現職人員那退休的部分呢都是在怨函處理沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有我記得是在軍人退職條例裡面嗎"},{"start":11728.882,"end":11748.261,"text":"這個項目一直以來都是從民國67年以來都是願函在規範的只是106年有依照立法院的決議去做一個檢討我現在就是說你要法律依據法律裡面的要去檢討那個法律的規定檢討願函的規定那你們自己趕快就檢討就是重新頒布就好了啊我們會檢討這個我們就來檢討這個願函"},{"start":11751.53,"end":11781.245,"text":"董委員因為您的第13案我看他這裡的預算數年度預算數215萬5000一般來講我們審預算的時候大概都是動一層因為你的目的是要他去提一個書面報告金童又死的動資那是不是因為我們今天也花了很多時間在相關的議案的討論是不是我們第13案的部分你說215萬的預算你要動100萬他還沒有動資之前他大概後半年就不用做事情了"},{"start":11781.445,"end":11782.086,"text":"提出面報告後取得動之。"},{"start":11792.722,"end":11815.728,"text":"好,那麼接下來那個2627還有29到31這五個案子你們是不是機關代表有沒有一個簡列數跟凍結數你們可以接受的部分可以承受的部分你們可以拿來討論一下包括這個部分我剛才請同仁精算過可以3減150萬凍300萬"},{"start":11823.732,"end":11849.509,"text":"一百五十萬對動三百萬我本來這邊的檢列的話應該是有差不多八百萬、九百萬是嗎?我們真的很誠懇的拜託委員支持應該要說多少?檢列三百?檢列一百五、動三百那是我原來所提的只有一成一成都不到"},{"start":11850.97,"end":11856.434,"text":"是因為喔,我們我跟你講,我這裡很誠懇跟委員報告紮紮實實,因為我們要經得起各界去檢視這樣的一個數據好,那這個我"},{"start":11872.697,"end":11895.675,"text":"剪裂150 動300這樣剪裂150嗎?今年喔可是你們的報告沒有讓我看好的話我下一年我肯定是會大看所以基於這次相信人事長您的承諾然後之後麻煩把這個報告書要寫完整交給我然後我剪300"},{"start":11897.097,"end":11921.738,"text":"因為凍結的部分大概跟他這五個案的規模三千萬的十分之一差不多那檢列部分一百五是不是我是不好意思這個不太就是因為其實這都是資訊預算其實我懇請那個翁委員再想一下因為你的第三案你的第三案的那個資訊預算總金額也不過是兩百四十一萬"},{"start":11923.438,"end":11948.727,"text":"那我是覺得這個併在這裡面簡列150動300那這第一幕跟第二幕的資訊預算就這樣來處理啦好不好你說第三幕嗎不是因為我們第一幕喔第一幕的你的第三案是資訊設備那現在第二幕呢你這五個案也是資訊設備那其實這第二幕的這五個案的資訊設備呢"},{"start":11950.347,"end":11977.264,"text":"大概規模3000萬你已經動了300萬這個大概跟一般我們在處理預算的時候相當啦那因為你的第一幕的第三案他的經費規模也不過200多而已那是不是您可以既然是資訊設備你第二幕的部分可以這樣處理了是不是說那個那個第三案第一幕的第三部分也是動個額數那就可以讓這些資訊設備就一起來處理"},{"start":11980.728,"end":12005.517,"text":"那如果這樣的話是剪裂10萬然後動20嗎?剪了啦,就動20啦。好,動20啦。那我們對不起倒車回去第一幕的第三案我們就動20那第二幕是資訊設備是剪裂150動300那因為還有那個第八案的部分那因為本來暫保留"},{"start":12007.694,"end":12023.122,"text":"好,並提出書面報告會使得動之,那現在你要講是第8案嗎?我主席是陳立委主任,就是剛才那個翁委員那個5案,第5案那個檢列150萬部分是不是科目自行調整?我會處理,您放心。"},{"start":12024.282,"end":12050.923,"text":"那另外呢,我們剛剛第一半暫保留,那我想因為這個天皇委員不在,那我們就不予處理。那我們這樣子呢,也很順利的可以在12點之前,我就不用處理延長會議時間了。是不是我們把全部從前面再run一遍。那麼,我們要以主案主案的,從那我們就把主決議的部分呢,一式run一遍。好不好,我們很快的,會議時間如果來得及,我們就處理到"},{"start":12052.188,"end":12077.933,"text":"這裡做個宣告啦,我們就上午會議進行至議程所列事項均處理完畢為止。好,那我們就開始從主決議的部分開始,從第幾案?還沒有,還有哪一案?剛剛都說不予處理啦,第二、二都不處理啦。那第八案呢?我說錯了,我們剛剛說的是第20案啦,就不予處理啦。對對對。"},{"start":12082.761,"end":12084.662,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12109.703,"end":12114.688,"text":"第11、20、22、25不予處理改為主決議90、12、14並15、17、18、19以及16、21、23、24、28改為主決議第5案保留送協商除以上個案外本目合併檢列150萬動節300萬第6案動節1000萬"},{"start":12133.264,"end":12141.569,"text":"那麼當然已經宣讀過那個動資條件了我就不再贅述第七、第八案凍結1100萬那麼向委員會提出書面報告時的動資那麼針對各凍結各案的要求依委員會決議那我們剛剛的提書面報告後經同意後時的動資"},{"start":12160.009,"end":12186.571,"text":"好 那麼這是第二幕的部分 那第一幕的部分呢我先讀了齁 好 那接下來我們處理組決議主席你剛剛沒有講科目進行調整欸好 那麼以上第二幕的科目進行調整來 那個中委員剛剛那個黃國昌委員他是說第二十案是暫保留不是不予處理喔"},{"start":12189.537,"end":12196.983,"text":"中委員您是不是可以再重複一下您剛剛說的第20案是怎麼樣?所以第20案是保留喔?那現在在場委員的意見"},{"start":12215.956,"end":12225.766,"text":"因為我想就尊重那個黃國昌委員的剛剛的建議因為他是抓他提案嘛他是認為說這案子要保留保留送協商嗎對保留送協商好那我們就保留送協商好好那麼接下來我們就進行主決議的部分"},{"start":12234.343,"end":12237.204,"text":"黃委員他委託我請我幫他重申他剛剛的意思啊"},{"start":12261.291,"end":12275.379,"text":"不過翁委員23你沒有連署阿對啊一般的程序是這樣就說你替他的話是你要當案不是你要成為當然的我知道我知道因為我剛剛好翁委員我跟你說明一下因為齁"},{"start":12287.182,"end":12312.916,"text":"因為剛剛我們在處理暫保留的時候都是以在場委員的部分處理啦包括你也在場處理諮詢預算嘛所以有幾個暫保要處理那因為剛剛在回到暫保的時候我才發現說欸為什麼剛剛我是說不予處理因為提供人不在像我剛剛不在我的案子不處理我也就就是照這樣因為五委員第四天是不予處理啊對啊所以五委員以後你要替其他委員那你要連署他的案子這真的是一般就是這是基本的"},{"start":12315.033,"end":12339.064,"text":"我認為說如果說今天黃國昌委員自始至終都沒有在場那另當別論但是他之前已經表達過他的意見了現在可能在不同的委員會裡面正在審查預算那就這個部分只是剛剛主席的宣告並不與剛剛的黃國昌委員的意見不一樣所以我們就在這裡來提出"},{"start":12340.177,"end":12360.314,"text":"再跟委員會報告一下其實沒有錯啦其實在審預算的時候如果委員不在場我們是不予處理那因為剛剛黃委員是在場但是後來我們是暫保留暫保留就回過頭要處理的時候他不在場了所以我剛剛就說不予處理但是因為你有意見嘛都想就尊重你但是後來一看那因為不只黃委員不在場啊這個連署的委員都不在場"},{"start":12361.115,"end":12387.81,"text":"那是這樣子啦因為其實就算我們現在不予處理齁其實到院會協商的時候還是會處理啦如果他他他有意見他還是會再處理啦對應該跟說明一下那個時候黃國昌委員在場他的暫保留是說今天的會議對不對他就保留到最後再處理而不是最終極的暫保留這個是兩件事嘛所以當我們回頭來再把剛剛第一輪暫保留的東西再做今天會議的最後處理時候那個委員要在場"},{"start":12388.53,"end":12409.589,"text":"他如果要委託別人代為發言,也必然是該案提案有連署附屬的委員嘛。這個我們審預算幾十年都是這樣子啊。之前那只是一個慣例,但是我想說今天既然有這個案子,而且黃國昌委員他已經也...我可以在院外不在場人家幫我舉手嗎?"},{"start":12412.85,"end":12433.863,"text":"因為我們這幾我至少有參與的預算人大概都是各委員會都是這個慣例那我剛剛是因為尊重你的發言我想說因為我剛剛在處理的時候我為什麼會那不經意的就把不予處理講出來後來一看因為是連署的委員都不在場但是呢這個所有的案子就算我們這裡不予處理"},{"start":12434.904,"end":12456.879,"text":"有意見願會協商的時候還是可以透過黨團還是可以在黨團再提議啦這樣的話我現在可以立刻就是再連署他的案啊不是啦我第一次講說他們如果說是他的案的這個是有道理的然後我們在場委員也支持為什麼不可以跟他講這個就是很簡單的事情啊有需要為了這個程序的不非一致在那裡講這個是這樣子的"},{"start":12459.961,"end":12476.491,"text":"本來在處理那個議案的時候啊,你說提案的委員不在場,你這本地就不處理了。鍾嘉賓教委講的也對啦,你如果堅持的話,到最後就是你們黨團可以再提案,不影響你的結局。"},{"start":12477.171,"end":12491.939,"text":"那個結果啦但是我們還是在各個委員會裡面立法院裡面本來就是有一天你當召委的時候你也會這樣去處理啦否則沒完沒了啦我們就照這樣處理啦好不好如果說你們有堅持你們黨團這體也不會影響到權益啦齁召委我做這樣建議"},{"start":12494.273,"end":12515.767,"text":"議員會協商後各黨團都可以再提出啦是各黨團當然可以再提出只是我現在想講的就是因為黃國昌委員他今天一開始就已經講了他的案子了對不對可能中間當然後來不知道是說什麼需要再討論還是怎麼樣要保留那他現在只是說就回過他現在這個離開之後他暫時委他委託我"},{"start":12516.647,"end":12528.712,"text":"重新幫他表達這個意見如果說我就講今天我說其他委員自始至終都不在我當然不會幫他說但因為他都在啊而且他之前針對他的案子表達過意見了那他為什麼現在不在沒有剛剛那是他第一輪暫保留現在我們是要做終極在委員會的處理他不在場就沒有辦法剛剛的暫保留是保留到最後剛剛沒共識的現在要解決他"},{"start":12542.697,"end":12549.31,"text":"因為剛剛吳委員的案子我也是他不在場我都沒有處理了他回來我也是沒處理"},{"start":12552.905,"end":12576.057,"text":"報告翁委員我的案子我不在場都沒處理都沒處理啊剛剛這個既然是這樣的話那我們反正就是之後就保留就保留嘛我們就砍更多就是這個我會建議黃委員這個案子重新再討論嘛那個是兩件事你要不要砍太多那是你個人委員的一個提案我現在談的就是說在場委員不在有些慣例也不見得是合理嘛對不對就像我們剛剛講的"},{"start":12580.719,"end":12606.511,"text":"黃國昌委員他本來就已經在場然後針對他的案子表達過意見那主席我可以在院會主席才是啦主席才是在院會表決的時候我等一下不在你幫我舉手現在國民黨最愛舉手表決陳俊宇無事要等一下離場啊你替我舉手為什麼國民黨要為什麼院長要做舉手表決不就是因為你們民進黨霸佔主席才不在場這件事情"},{"start":12607.651,"end":12629.841,"text":"再不在場這件事情處理議案的時候那個委員提案委員他要在場或者是他那個案子連署的委員在場替他講話那沒有問題那剛好這個案子您沒有連署到如果說其他案子您也有連署到你絕對可以代表他我就算沒有連署我也支持他的案子在場的每一個委員不是都可以表達意見嗎更何況我今天也是經過他的授權要表達這個意見啊"},{"start":12633.682,"end":12654.211,"text":"還是跟委員報告一下因為一開始的確我們處理提案的原則一開始就宣告了原則上我們按照慣例盡可能採取共識的方式處理那過去我們委員會各委員會都是這樣那委員們有經歷過預算審查就知道那麼審查的時候在處理的時候處理最後做處理的當下以在場委員跟有連鎖委員來進行處理"},{"start":12656.252,"end":12656.412,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12678.326,"end":12690.858,"text":"我還要再講一下啊就是固然什麼委員會有慣例啊但是我認為這個慣例基本上如果大家認為這是有共識的之後還是要法制化就把它寫在這個可能就是我們司法委員會這個相關的會議規則裡面"},{"start":12694.822,"end":12708.712,"text":"所以否則的話過去這些二席我們現在還要繼續延續嗎?這個很好我趕快在本會期結束前我跟吳釗偉我們來研究一下謝謝好那我們就開始進行主決議第32案是32案嗎?好那個機關代表遵照辦理嗎?好遵照辦理第33案用麥克風"},{"start":12722.865,"end":12741.073,"text":"同意委員提案。好,遵照辦理。第三十四案。三十四建議修正文字並十一案處理。好,那麼文字內容。這是三個月跨湖夏會期。我剛剛有改。三個月跨湖夏會期。好,那麼吳志祥委員簽名了。那我們三十四案修正後通過。第三十五案。建議修正文字。"},{"start":12742.372,"end":12758.237,"text":"三十五萬修正文字我看一下三十五萬的文字修正是吳委員的三十五你要修正什麼三十五萬喔就是建議修正文字因為跟那個呃找我跟委員會報告哪一位委員哪一位在說我的我的好請說對呃就是跟委員報告因為那個"},{"start":12759.518,"end":12778.85,"text":"文化觀光產業如果說要納入國旅卡的話那因為第一個文化我們希望是找文化部來一起來會商然後要國旅卡的特約商店的話要找觀光署所以你就寫原請我倒數第三行原件請行政院人事總處配合"},{"start":12779.79,"end":12807.976,"text":"我看怎麼寫會同文化部、燈號、交通部、觀光署研議嗎?好不好?OK啊?OK就配合文化部跟交通部觀光署研議三個月內吼?好那麼修正後照文字修正後修正後通過第36案建議修正文字修正文字來修正什麼我看一下來請看一下我給我的沒有修正啊"},{"start":12809.701,"end":12823.712,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12824.744,"end":12825.905,"text":"這樣啦我覺得事實配合太被動了啦"},{"start":12855.137,"end":12865.699,"text":"人事行政總處積極參與積極參與積極參與該平台之研議第一句這樣好不好好積極參與該平台之研議然後後面一樣好不好好36案文字決定後謝謝謝謝第37案好37案召喚通過38案召喚通過39案"},{"start":12883.24,"end":12909.094,"text":"同意委員提案 召喚通過40案同意委員提案 召喚通過41案同意委員提案 召喚通過42案同意委員提案 召喚通過43案同意委員提案 召喚通過44案同意委員提案 同意委員提案有修正一個字是吧 比率那個是別字啦 倒數第二行文字修正後通過 喔喔喔 別字 45案"},{"start":12912.145,"end":12924.299,"text":"同意委員提案。好,照案通過46案。欸,建議修正文字。好,文字修正如何?那麼請那個有幫忙連署的陳委員幫忙看一下。好,第46案。"},{"start":12925.922,"end":12949.412,"text":"報告委員 那我們那個總預算的部分大概都是授權給主管機關也要針對所屬機關來做一個彈性的調整所以我們對於委員的提案在第二段的部分在那邊後面提到是評估是否符合實際業務需求及人力的負荷並且協助機關我們會增加協助機關來建立更彈性化的人力調配的一個機制"},{"start":12950.492,"end":12964.256,"text":"好那就在這邊就是希望那個主管人總這邊來協助機關文字有沒有提供給陳委員有那陳委員同意嗎好修正後通過好47案47案47案同意委員"},{"start":12980.253,"end":12996.96,"text":"好,事宜現在召喚通過事項。建議修正文字。好,文字修正來。請拿過來。是不是要會同?是不是要會同?"},{"start":13004.158,"end":13029.773,"text":"倒數第四行倒數第四行的部分我們是說是不是可以請我們總處我們總處應該妥善的評估把那個後製刪除就適度來增加專庭隊及收容所的單位的員額之可行性因為這個部分可能我們要請他們一起來一起來來做一個妥善的一個研議跟評估好本席同意修正文字修正後通過好第49案"},{"start":13033.788,"end":13039.908,"text":"同意委員提案。好。修正案就按照案通過。50案。同意委員提案。50案照案通過。"},{"start":13043.18,"end":13049.284,"text":"主決議提案案號第32案至第50案那麼第3、2、3、3、3、7至43、45、47、49、50照案通過第34案、35案、36案、44案、46案、48案修正後通過那麼第二款第三項人事行政總處處理完畢繼續處理第四項公務人力發展學院第二幕訓練輔導及研究提案案號"},{"start":13069.719,"end":13089.991,"text":"至第51案至第56案好,我們現在看到51案51案的部分提案委員吳思堯委員那個吳委員是起議凍結100萬書面報告時的凍資建議改組決議"},{"start":13095.325,"end":13117.285,"text":"你們有要努力去做嗎?就是你們對於那個文化相關的賠利的課程確實還不足嗎?有有,我...好,那麼同意後那個主決議請吳思堯委員簽名後通過。好,第52案已經改為主決議,那麼看到翁小林委員同意簽名了。"},{"start":13118.53,"end":13134.545,"text":"那第53案是翁曉琳委員的提案委員已經同意改組決議好那麼組決53案喔不是52案喔53案喔53案建議凍結50萬改書面報告不要幫我們刪啦因為那裡的警衛也是很拮据的"},{"start":13154.589,"end":13170.981,"text":"我請學院學院說明一下跟主席問委員報告我是公共人力發展學院所謂學習組組長那這裡所有的資訊預算其實我們大部分都是在執行我們整個學院裡面業務流程要簡化的一些資訊化的"},{"start":13172.618,"end":13193.781,"text":"業務那我們這幾年來其實預算都沒有增加會增加的部分都是因為資安的要求的關係所以其實我們在114年只增加了160萬那在資訊服務費跟那個資訊軟體設備加起來也只增加160萬那這160萬我們有列一個明細就是說我們裡面包括是因為我們之前採購的防火牆"},{"start":13194.441,"end":13219.177,"text":"那他已經到期保固到期所以我們明年開始要做一些後續維護那我們包含台北跟南投兩個院區所以整個加起來我們也跟廠商訪過架那另外多出來一點的部分其實就是為了治安要求要做一些DDoS防護做一些那個像vans的一些處理那所以這個是在增加很少的情況下那我們這裡面呢我們最近的所有的所有的這個資訊的執行我們都都其實是很有成效的我舉個例子我們每年"},{"start":13223.5,"end":13234.032,"text":"為了把這些系統把它做好減少減化我們的流程像我們之前把APP的那個把它變成網頁化我們不僅省掉了APP他每年要去做資安驗證的費用然後學員他們也本來還要下載APP還要登入大概我們估算過大概5分鐘那"},{"start":13241.159,"end":13262.435,"text":"現在的話大概稍微QR Code大概就是15秒內就解決那我們有算一下像一年就可以減省下大概17多萬分鐘的時數那像我們的那個行政支援管理系統也是做整個改版那把我們的訓練費用透過系統化的方式來做簡化而且可以很明確的查到每一班他到底是多少的費用"},{"start":13263.115,"end":13282.742,"text":"好那這個我們也算過一年可以減省到520人時那我們在今年又特別做了像我們把一家平台的線上課程盤點還有一些問卷全部都是線上化然後一些成效統計也線上化我們估一下一年大概誰可以整下大概410小時人事所以其實我們在經費沒有增加的情況下而且我們也是努力的達到"},{"start":13283.502,"end":13286.384,"text":"其他委員有沒有其他的意見?來問會員請其實我是認為你們的議價能力有待檢討你們好像這個委托的委辦的經費"},{"start":13314.502,"end":13334.162,"text":"年年都偏高提高而且到底有沒有去認真的議價還是要幫我們這個老百姓要節省公帑啊對我們交稅交那麼多然後呢你們呢好像花錢都不手軟"},{"start":13336.966,"end":13353.697,"text":"議價的成效也不好常常他的那個怎麼決算的就是跟原來的投票金額就差不多一樣的我認為說這邊的話可能還是要簡列啦好不好簡列然後剛剛是我們之前都是以10%嘛"},{"start":13360.458,"end":13388.837,"text":"那個53案吼其實翁委員的53、54案都是資訊設備吼我這邊吼主席這邊跟委員報告吼其實今天呢我們聚焦在很多關於資訊設備的部分那因為公務人力發展學院其實他的預算規模不大吼我是覺得委員如果覺得53、54吼各動50萬吼那這個部分因為還要送書面報告還要經同意吼還要經同意吼所以這個部分翁委員其實可以考慮一下"},{"start":13391.668,"end":13410.598,"text":"我要表達我的觀點我長期投入政府採購制度的優化在2019年全面大修政府採購法我投入甚深也就是我對於一個政府採購的合理的制度的建立跟革新是我們要面對的"},{"start":13411.698,"end":13429.203,"text":"我認為一個標規的合理是最重要的事情也就是行政部門今天要做一個採購不管是硬體或是軟體你必須非常詳實的我們要做到哪些項目可能要對應的合理的"},{"start":13430.483,"end":13441.649,"text":"錶案的金額是多少才會對得起來所以我從來不認為就我對於政府採購制度投入這麼多年我從來不認為最後去跟廠商議價砍錢是對的方向"},{"start":13446.124,"end":13472.72,"text":"我認為在前頭把一個正確的採購要有的合理的標規寫清楚這個標規就是公部門要非常嚴謹的這個採購廠商要達到什麼樣的資格能夠做到什麼樣我們要做的事情然後他能夠達到什麼樣的效果然後我們給予合理合宜的計算之後該給的"},{"start":13474.315,"end":13495.934,"text":"一個支付的價金這是一個合宜的、健全的、健康的也是有品質的政府採購案應當有的前提如果每一個政府採購案都是標規降下去然後最後不明就禮就是要廠商溢價打九折打八折這就是我們在革新的部分不是嗎"},{"start":13496.835,"end":13510.561,"text":"我們過去還要求廠商你除了標到案之後你還要給我其他的服務你要送我便當你要送我車子你要送政府其他的東西叫做回饋啊我們都在改革這些東西啊"},{"start":13511.707,"end":13531.215,"text":"所以我要再講這我一定要就是我希望我們對於政府採購有正確的理解那我也相信公務同仁都有正確的一個新的進步的採購的思維委員就教於你們垂詢於你們任何的採購如果在標規的部分確實沒有做好當然要革新"},{"start":13532.301,"end":13545.67,"text":"但我個人是非常反對在後端的溢價溢價溢價要你們溢更多價砍更多錢那傷害的會是整個採購的品質我要表達我的意見好那麼這裡做一個說明那個倒車啦因為跟公教人員委員說明一下剛剛我們在"},{"start":13557.611,"end":13580.544,"text":"人事行政總處的第二幕的第13案那因為我們第三案呢我們剛剛已經做宣告了通通都是提書面報告經同意後時的動之啦所以在經同意就是一定委員會要再做討論所以呢您在第13案的部分您的那個剛剛有人總的同仁請您做一個過目你本來是寫的是專案報告阿其實以"},{"start":13581.084,"end":13599.901,"text":"之前我們在第二幕的所有的案子有專案報告的有書面報告的我們都是用書面報告那因為委員會都還是要同意啦所以是不是讓委員知道一下我們就是按照剛剛的宣告內容避免誤會那這個部分就請量查好那現在回到我們那個公務人員"},{"start":13601.903,"end":13621.287,"text":"的部分公務人員的訓練部分那現在呢是翁委員的部分有53案54案那麼機關代表是希望能夠懇請各動50萬的部分那經順便報告經同意後使的動資那不曉得我們委員會各位委員的看法"},{"start":13622.622,"end":13633.245,"text":"因為還是要說明一下因為公務人力發展學院其實預算規模不大如果說人總在我們的公務機關各二級機關已經相對是屬於比較苗條的大概我們"},{"start":13639.208,"end":13654.537,"text":"公務人力發展中心但只剩竹竿了。我說真的我們現在同仁有一個很大壓力很少跟大家講因為我們承受治安的壓力很大因為我們保有所有公務人員資料人力學院一樣你這一些"},{"start":13656.019,"end":13670.196,"text":"資訊安全沒有做好當發生事情的時候誰去被救責一定是我們的同仁啊我們同仁要去扛這樣的責任在很謙卑的預算底下可以滿足我們的整個系統"},{"start":13671.157,"end":13687.645,"text":"正常安全的運作我覺得這是一個非常重要的那我們也希望大會委員會能夠來支持我們的這個預算真的不要砍因為我都剩下很多很多的了拜託一下像我講的這個資安費用他是常年都在編的"},{"start":13697.984,"end":13722.563,"text":"對,然後呢你說現在這個什麼資訊人力的薪水待遇提高這也不是普遍啊除了這個竹科工程園區那邊的工程師可能待遇提高之外其他的還是一樣啊也沒有說是改變太多然後我們現在只是說你把你們所提列的增加的費用我們認為可以在"},{"start":13723.817,"end":13726.229,"text":"做小規模的刪減這只是10%嘛"},{"start":13728.698,"end":13753.731,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我講這個啦現在人工智慧這麼發達明年我們面對的資安不是以前的資安防護就夠了啦人工智慧的他會引入到整個資安工房如果我們不多增加一些投資的話到時候我們在工房的力道在防護的力道一定會比較弱主要是在這裡"},{"start":13754.791,"end":13761.758,"text":"資通安全管理法一修再修今年也有再修就是要求各部會強化資安的各項作為"},{"start":13778.223,"end":13801.758,"text":"預算反應政策因為因應無所不在的我們面對的駭客的攻擊我們可能面對很多甚至來自於對岸的很多在資訊上做的很多竊取機密的行為我們都要支持國家把資安做更好所以我覺得這個預算如果砍了恐怕只是讓我們的資安破洞"},{"start":13803.055,"end":13827.376,"text":"所以拜託啦因為真的人事總處這個我完全可以理解因為要求你們做的項目越來越多要求越來越高因為我們面對的各種治安的威脅不管是內部或者是境外的我們要全面防範這是已經是國安層級了啦所以我希望大家這個預算一定要支持"},{"start":13828.505,"end":13848.562,"text":"而且我也真的很不好意思說我念一下這個建於人事行政總處關於資訊軟體費用年年不斷以經濟優化與擴充知名、編列高額預算且多有代理廠商限制新招標軟體開發使用,限制於特定廠商的問題這一句話溫委員的提案您的將近十個案子都是這一句話"},{"start":13851.198,"end":13866.116,"text":"所以我一直在說要人家改善你要具體嘛阿不同的單位從人事總處然後到現在是公務人力發展學院每一個單位只要跟資安有關的資訊有關的您都用同樣一句話"},{"start":13867.745,"end":13884.662,"text":"然後就要大家去去去檢列或凍結那個對於議價能力您個人認為要求他們強化議價能力但是我提出我不一樣的觀點一直去要求議價後端去採購完之後去砍砍經費那就是讓整個採購品質更差"},{"start":13889.517,"end":13889.717,"text":"來 翁委員請說"},{"start":13909.192,"end":13935.238,"text":"我這邊寫的提案因為針對的項目是一樣的有沒有年年都是以經濟優化與擴充知名編列高預算我這裡我都做了表欸要我一個一個唸嗎唸給這個不用工的委員們來聽全國公教人員退休撫恤整合平台專案從104年到13年幾乎都是委託給同一家廠商"},{"start":13937.912,"end":13949.475,"text":"然後還有組織營業資源調查相關系統擴充專案每一年都是擴充專案、擴充專案、系統優化專案連續列10年還有什麼從102年也是全國共享版的各機關內部人事服務網優化專案"},{"start":13967.52,"end":13976.047,"text":"一直到113年都是不是優化專案要麽就是叫做徵修專案金額也都是差不多很高的如果說你以這個行政院這邊所編列的這多算原則還有他的維護費5%到15%來講的話都已經超過了"},{"start":13998.524,"end":14000.624,"text":"還有什麼事求人及調查系統功能優化擴充專案也是大概也是從107年到113年每一年都是叫做系統功能優化及擴充案而且每一年變的錢都差不多我還可以繼續再講"},{"start":14025.697,"end":14045.751,"text":"我不是沒有做功課我像有些委員你唸的只是計畫的名稱嘛計畫的名稱所以啊內容啊內容啊那你到底覺得內容哪裡不好你具體的講嘛是喔我叫他們提報告嘛就是沒有做出來啊你不能疑問答問現在是我在講不是你在說實在是你才是"},{"start":14051.889,"end":14076.921,"text":"然後也是有個系統我剛已經講過了對不對已經集中在幾個特定的廠商標案的名稱擴充了專案的內容但計劃書上面根本沒有寫清楚啊你預計下個年度你要擴充些什麼既然這樣的話我所有的案子我都保留送協商就不砍了就也不用再動了"},{"start":14078.171,"end":14097.244,"text":"好,我們尊重在場委員的意見那我們第53號我們就保留送協商那後面因為都改成主決議了那57案的部分也是主決議嘛另外主決議另外念那我們先將那個"},{"start":14098.479,"end":14108.608,"text":"那個簡略有修正問題那位我們先處理那個簡略跟凍結的部分第二幕訓練輔導及研究提案案號51案至56案那麼第51、52、55、56改為主決議第53、55保留送協商然後呢我們"},{"start":14120.497,"end":14146.864,"text":"五三五四保留送協商那麼繼續處理第二款第四項公人力發展學院之主決議提案案號第57、58案那我們現在請看57案是吳委員的提案好那麼文字修改修正後通過那麼再來是58案58案文字修正"},{"start":14149.49,"end":14155.536,"text":"通過第四項公共人力發展學院主決議提案號第57、58案修正後通過接下來"},{"start":14162.062,"end":14182.181,"text":"我們就討論事項第一案已處理完畢做以下宣告一四年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分審查完整提報院會院會討論前需交由黨團協商院會討論時由中超級委員嘉賓說明"},{"start":14184.974,"end":14201.963,"text":"好那麼現在進行討論事項第二案繼續審查14年度中央政府總預算案關於附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管中央公教人員急難救助基金收支部分因為沒有委員提案預算均照列"},{"start":14203.775,"end":14215.26,"text":"好討論事項第二案已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢提報院會院會討論前需交由黨團協商院會討論時由中召議委員嘉賓說明"},{"start":14217.028,"end":14235.707,"text":"有關於本次議程討論事項通過修正之預算提案請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後送交主席台均列入公報記錄通過之決議依例文字授權主席及議事委員整理本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16404","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16404","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ef4489611fe8f3d29ea093030673645f96d1319bf84c91682c89c5dc44b4d20fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-23T08:31:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-23T12:06:00+08:00","duration":12894,"影片長度":"03:34:54","委員發言時間":"08:31:06 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12月19日出席委員"},{"start":1885.702,"end":1901.288,"text":"吳秉瑞等14人、列席委員王逸川等13人、列席官員113年12月18日星期三財政部部長莊翠雲等、113年12月19日星期四金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭金隆等、主席陳昭季委員喻貞、113年12月18日報告事項"},{"start":1903.689,"end":1921.77,"text":"宣讀上次會議議事錄決定、議事錄確定臺灣事項繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部負稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、官務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬"},{"start":1922.871,"end":1926.533,"text":"臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、公務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬稅數預算審查結果"},{"start":1940.839,"end":1959.906,"text":"第十款財政部主管第三項付稅組原列204億3,609萬2千元緊列第三目統一發票給獎及推行項下統一發票給獎及推行中業務費之違犯費2300萬元一般事務費100萬元共計檢列2400萬元科目均執行調整區域均照列改列為204億1,209萬2千元本項通過決議39項第四項"},{"start":1964.788,"end":1975.975,"text":"臺北國稅局原列27億7662萬8千元簡略第二幕國稅基增優惠項下稅款徵收及處理之優惠費30萬元科目自行調整區域均照列改列為27億7662萬8千元本項通過決議三項第五項"},{"start":1980.137,"end":2003.911,"text":"高雄國稅局原列18億3644萬2千元簡列第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持之業務費20萬元科目自行調整取入均紮列改列為18億3624萬2千元本項通過決議兩項第六項北區國稅局及所屬原列30億2768千元簡列第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持之業務費20萬元第二幕國稅基增業務向下"},{"start":2006.833,"end":2015.018,"text":"稅款徵收及處理之業務費20萬元、供居減略40萬元、科目均自行調整、區域均照列改列為30億2720萬8千元本項通過決議三項第7項中區國稅局及所屬原列25億5652萬9千元"},{"start":2022.302,"end":2034.312,"text":"簡略第二幕．國稅基增業務向下稅款徵收及處理之業務費15萬元．電子處理及運用之業務費15萬元．共計簡略30萬元．科目均自行調整、區域均造列．改略為25億5622萬9千元本項通過決議兩項．第八項"},{"start":2038.556,"end":2050.921,"text":"南區國稅局及所屬,原列211096萬1千元,簡列第二幕,國稅基增業務項下,稅管徵收及處理之業務費10萬元,科目自行調整,區域均照列,改列211086萬1千元本項通過決議第9項,公務署及所屬,原列751942萬3千元,簡列第一幕,一般行政系統"},{"start":2059.526,"end":2060.707,"text":"本項通過決議二十項第十項國有參參署及所屬"},{"start":2075.623,"end":2094.833,"text":"原列三十二億四千六百七十萬一千元簡略第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持及業務費五十萬元科目自行調整區域均照列改列為三十二億四千六百二十萬一千元本項通過決議二十一項有關正式別稅出預算隨從以上機關別審查結果調整二、融資財源調度部分"},{"start":2095.333,"end":2105.818,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關融資財源調度部分編列債務資償還1415億元另稅率稅出剩餘208億9728萬1千元合共上需融資調度數1206億271萬9千元以取借債務706億271萬9千元及移用以前年度稅計剩餘500億元逾一米平均暫照列是總預算案稅率稅出審議結果再行調整"},{"start":2123.865,"end":2149.534,"text":"113年12月19日討論事項一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會銀行局、證券集會局、保險局、檢察局收支部分二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案付儲單位預算營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案付儲單位預算費營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管"},{"start":2150.194,"end":2164.21,"text":"一、特別收入基金、金融監督管理基金二、信託基金、保險應用發展基金討論事項個案合併詢答金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭金隆就預算案提出報告後藉由委員林德武等15人提出質詢"},{"start":2165.151,"end":2182.252,"text":"曾經金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭金隆等予以答覆。說明及詢答完畢。質詢會及答覆會請補充資訊。請金融監督管理委員會於一周內書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其鎖定。委員楊雄英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。"},{"start":2183.113,"end":2209.526,"text":"並請金融監督管理委員會以書面答覆是,中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會、銀行局、證券取入局、保險局、檢察局收支部分、附屬單位預算營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司及附屬單位費營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管一、特別收入基金、金融監督管理基金二、信託基金、保險業務基金均另折及繼續審查宣傳"},{"start":2217.452,"end":2222.855,"text":"請問各位委員對上次議事錄有無異議?沒有好,議事錄確定那請議事人員先讀今日的議程"},{"start":2228.567,"end":2243.271,"text":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就〈兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表演規劃．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．宣布完畢好謝謝那我們介紹在場的那個委員首先我們介紹吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":2259.465,"end":2266.047,"text":"財政部政務次長阮次長國庫署副署長馬曉慧副署長護稅署宋署長宋秀玲官戶署彭英偉彭署長國有財產署副署長李正宗"},{"start":2290.942,"end":2317.194,"text":"財政資訊中心張文希張主任兆豐金控董事長董瑞兵董董事長總經理肖玉梅兆豐銀行黃永珍總經理第一金控方總經理第一商業銀行李嘉祥李總經理"},{"start":2320.955,"end":2346.978,"text":"華蘭金控李耀清李總經理合作銀行王淑芬總經理中小企業銀行李國中總經理臺北金融大樓股份有限公司焦永傑董事長朱立文總經理金管會陳彥郎副主委"},{"start":2350.254,"end":2377.73,"text":"銀行局侯麗楊副局長政區局王厚明副局長保險局蔡火燕副局長檢察局副局長賴新國證交所林修銘董事長李愛玲總經理"},{"start":2382.295,"end":2398.752,"text":"好,請今日議程的安排,我們邀請到財政部莊部長金融監督管理委員會彭主委委員就兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資的金融大樓股份有限公司2024年的營運成效、2025年度的經營計畫與展望"},{"start":2403.317,"end":2415.944,"text":"即跨年晚會、煙火表演的一個規劃進行專題的一個報告現在我們請財政部卵次長進行專題報告接著請金管會陳副主委準備"},{"start":2426.687,"end":2451.893,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家早安今天應邀列席貴委員會就兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資的臺北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運績效、2025年經營計畫與展望及跨年晚會煙火表演規劃進行報告深感榮幸簡就涉及本部業務部分簡要說明如下進行指教"},{"start":2453.033,"end":2470.008,"text":"臺北101資本額新臺幣147億元本部並未持有該公司的股份本部所管的公股事業間接持有19.5%其他部會所管的事業機構持股32.58%另外上有民股股東持股47.92%"},{"start":2473.05,"end":2494.884,"text":"臺北101本屆董事會一共有董事13席監察人4席任期到116年9月2日為止其中本部公股事業取得4席董事及1席監察人其他泛公股取得3席董事及2席監察人其餘6席董事及1席監察人是民股股東股權的代表"},{"start":2496.832,"end":2507.342,"text":"臺北101股權管理作為方面,臺北101是本部公股事業的轉投資事業。基於公司治理原則,業務經營由該公司橫著專業領域及業務需要依據相關法令規定本與全責辦理,並由各投資事業依內部管理規範檢討轉投資事業成效及辦理股權代表績效考核事宜。"},{"start":2519.714,"end":2540.589,"text":"建議臺北101跨年煙火及綠建植物等具政策性及指標意義本部以歷次相關的會議當中就臺北101的營運績效及重要的經營策略等業務推動均適時表示協助該公司落實環境社會公司治理ESG的與增進經營效能"},{"start":2542.96,"end":2558.8,"text":"臺北101的業務營運思想這一部分根據兆豐金控公司工股代表的說明在2013年營運績效方面受惠於入境觀光客人數成長以及擴大年輕客群"},{"start":2559.561,"end":2568.147,"text":"金品、珠寶銷售營收大幅成長,帶動營收獲利穩定成長113年截至11月致捷營收達到54.37億元,連增7.43%預估113年度全年營收可販突破60億元,預算達成率優於預期114年經營計畫與展望方面,商場事業部分因推動金品改裝"},{"start":2587.259,"end":2615,"text":"經營場域空間及提升消費體驗等經營策略預估114年商場業績將穩定增長景觀台部分考量國際旅遊市場恢復正常入境觀光客增加預估外籍旅客購票數將持續提升辦公大樓部分因新簽約的租戶租金提高續約的租金調漲及高空餐廳全新營運"},{"start":2617.821,"end":2630.511,"text":"業績將較113年度增加另外永續顧問成長部分長域活化運用增加營收等因素預計114年獲利可比今年成長整體而言114年度預算稅後盈餘將較今年預測數成長約4%至於跨年晚會表演的規劃部分"},{"start":2642.54,"end":2661.767,"text":"臺北101跨年煙火主題為Team Taiwan即Champion以棒球之奪冠為主軸預計施放時間約五分多鐘每一束煙火金象徵臺灣人熱血與成就以慶祝中華隊在2024年世界棒球十二強賽奪得冠軍讓全世界見證臺灣棒球的實力"},{"start":2667.889,"end":2695.234,"text":"今年臺北101經營績效良好且跨年煙火垂直登高賽、環保綠建築等享譽國際有助推廣臺灣正面形象具政策性指標及觀光效益本部將持續督請所屬事業公股代表落實禁止督導以提升臺北101的經營績效樹立永續卓越的標竿維護公股權益以上說明進行各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2697.534,"end":2701.743,"text":"好 謝謝接著我們請那個金管會常務主委報告"},{"start":2716.07,"end":2729.445,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先生女士今天非常榮幸成大院邀請來這個就兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資的臺北金融大樓股份有限公司的營運成效"},{"start":2730.006,"end":2747.874,"text":"以及對於2024、2025的經營計畫與展望、跨年晚會煙火表現規劃提出報告致感榮幸首先在證券交易所投資臺北金融大樓的一個概況是證交所謂的配合政府推動臺灣"},{"start":2749.996,"end":2769.856,"text":"這個亞太區金融中心及考量辦公的需求在民國86年10月轉投資臺北金融大樓在一開始的時候呢投資金額為5億持股是5%那後來呢在888993歷次的現金增資呢以及97年的減資"},{"start":2770.356,"end":2777.278,"text":"投資之後,目前仍持有8,385萬3千股持股比例為5.7%投資帳面金額26億元目前投資的概況因為交易所持有的只有5.7的股權"},{"start":2788.882,"end":2806.553,"text":"他沒有對他有一個重要的影響力所以呢他是一個採用權益的一個投資也就是說101大樓他的損益無需反映於交易所的一個財報當中目前的是透過其他綜合損益按公允價值衡量的一個金融資產"},{"start":2808.254,"end":2828.659,"text":"每年收取股利並派一席董事那到目前為止的話呢這個臺北金融大樓這營收54餘元營業利益30億餘元稅後利益是22餘元所以呢近三年分配的現金股利"},{"start":2829.179,"end":2832.401,"text":"目前,交易所派一任一席董事參與董事會的運作。在12月18日的董事會相關記錄中,"},{"start":2848.991,"end":2874.096,"text":"可以看到這個營運中五點包括了掌握目標客群提供顧客最佳的體驗強化品牌的效益提升整體的一個效力強化數位營運及智慧服務透過了一個場域改造五樓九十一樓的一個觀景台的場域再造規劃以及設備升級落實減碳而本會對於"},{"start":2875.856,"end":2890.167,"text":"政交所的一個財務業務監督管理是依照的這個證券交易法而政交所必須訂定所謂的管理規則與規定實現內向本會呈報它年度的營運計畫"},{"start":2892.088,"end":2912.699,"text":"以及預算執行情形財務報告等文件本會將會持這個主管機關的監督管理之責依法監督業務及財務的執行讓它符合我們的資本市場發展以上報告敬祝各位主席、委員、何家喜得平安謝謝好謝謝陳副主委"},{"start":2916.85,"end":2944.151,"text":"現在我們開始詢答先做以下的先告每位出席的委員花言時間是8分鐘必要的時候得延長2分鐘每位出席的委員花言的時間是5分鐘那今天上午10點截止花言登記現在依登記的順序請登記第一位林德虎委員質詢質詢先給我1分鐘好問我"},{"start":2948.534,"end":2970.524,"text":"主席我很尊重你我們與會各列席官員還有本會的同仁因為今天早上我們要開會要開會其實上個禮拜就議程已經列定了已經送了今天莊部長沒有來"},{"start":2972.898,"end":2990.013,"text":"那本席是真的有點意見但是我還是尊重主席啦因為主席讓他請假為什麼我這麼想法呢因為第一個他10點鐘要在行政院開記者會他跟陳淑芝主記長兩個人要開記者會我認為開記者會絕對是針對上個禮拜通過的財劃法講實在話你要面對啊而且"},{"start":3002.208,"end":3030.698,"text":"可以開始了齁我認為這個要面對啦為什麼因為齁他說這個我們上個禮拜通過的財劃法那個阮次長你上來好不好來好 阮次長跟林德虎委員齁那個因為立法院通過上個禮拜財劃法的修正案那媒體報導財政部啊申表遺憾那我請問阮次長面對立法院多數席次"},{"start":3031.718,"end":3058.213,"text":"立委要求財政部提出修法的版本而且我們有做過主決議已經經過半年說這個新會期財政部一定要提出來但財政部對面對多數的民意可以說置之不理那我認為說通過以後你才來說聲表遺憾你們會不會認為感到羞愧會不會"},{"start":3059.329,"end":3076.543,"text":"跟委員報告齁,那麼財化法這一部分吶,因為涉及到財源的分配這個齁,我都很清楚,我認為阮市長,你認為會不會感到很羞愧嘛不會啊,因為這個東西我覺得應該涉及到資源的分配我統計過,那個阮市長"},{"start":3079.145,"end":3087.211,"text":"在113年度今年度到年底最少超徵4900億112年超徵多少3860億111年超徵5237億然後110年超徵4237億總共4年加起來一兆8000多億平均每年超徵多少呢4500億我跟委員報告"},{"start":3107.307,"end":3135.82,"text":"我跟委員報告我們雖然剛才委員提到了是總預算裡面的稅收的時增數超過預算數但是如果我們把總預算跟特別預算合併來算的話我們這幾年幾乎都是赤字你特別預算不能併在裡面你不要再跟我來這一套我跟你講喔 阮次長我很尊重你但是喔 我很清楚特別預算就是排除整個預算那你"},{"start":3137.041,"end":3157.534,"text":"來,我請教,來,我有一個片子讓你看,來,那個是不是把它播放?臺北看天下,不顧地方的生死,那如果不是的話是說,任何一個副主席的總統都不應該把我們在那次發展的這個發展,放在一邊都不一樣,一天只能說一些有的沒的,我認為這是不應該的,為了大量的發展,大家來倒下手,要求他們趕快在日本人,既然好,要求也好,這個財劃法,他現在還趕快通過"},{"start":3164.819,"end":3188.019,"text":"這個情況更加讓高雄市未來的財政更加的困難,非常不公平的對高雄市是一種懲罰。如果財劃法不改變,那麼中央跟地方的關係就像是一個峻層的關係。今天我們最大的訴求,這一次的財劃法一定要優先排進去。所以我們認為最優先應該是財政收入保護法。今天我們民進黨怎麼可能再讓這個議題讓馬來西亞再回分呢?"},{"start":3190.181,"end":3206.253,"text":"所以我們認為這次李子維財政法是一個很重要的優先法案不是你馬英九拿三十幾個簡單的法案來讓你投出來一目了視的在這上面你就消毒而已我們要讓馬英九很清楚財政法是民進黨黨派永遠第一優先法案這就是我們的立法"},{"start":3206.733,"end":3229.674,"text":"當年我在編預算的時候常常是徹夜南北半夜醒過來是全身冷汗從我當主席以來第一件事就是把民進黨執政縣市長約請來黨中央一起大聲的呼籲要趕快通過財政收支化分化這不只是民進黨的問題現在更從藍營的縣市長也紛紛跳出來可知這是不分藍綠的"},{"start":3231.215,"end":3232.096,"text":"好我相信齁從這些影片大家清清楚楚"},{"start":3251.941,"end":3267.939,"text":"律營這些過去當過首長的換了個位置就換了個腦袋那本席是認為說今天修訂財劃法是讓這個因為地方啊講實在話很多縣市首長"},{"start":3268.82,"end":3284.241,"text":"他們真的是嗷嗷待哺而且每一年都透過我們中央及這些民意代表來反映希望能夠爭取很多的這些建設需要中央可以協助補助今天我認為說"},{"start":3285.982,"end":3307.394,"text":"因為財政部用中央積極支援地方財政的這個立場來透過中央統籌分配稅款搭配一般性的補助款以及計畫型的補助來預助地方財源難道現在的執政黨我們各位官員這個就是最好的政策嗎"},{"start":3308.615,"end":3311.356,"text":"跟委員報告我們財政部不會反對財化法來修正但是我們是希望要充分的討論我跟委員報告過去我們但是充分討論"},{"start":3326.4,"end":3352.777,"text":"要你們提版本你們根本連版本都不提嘛我先跟委員報告幾個數字我們對中央政府對地方政府的依註到114年是達到超過1兆151億那麼這一次沒有經過充分討論的情況之下又額外釋出3753億然後呢一般的博出款又不能夠往下降"},{"start":3353.317,"end":3373.272,"text":"所以在這種情況之下一定會衝擊到中央的施政而且會影響到對地方的協助的能力所以說行政院批評財務法修正後中央政府的國庫會變得空虛未來天災來臨時地方政府要自行的等於是"},{"start":3374.833,"end":3398.859,"text":"去勇敢面對那我請問次長卓院長對國庫空虛這麼有感受那為什麼沒有辦法體會到地方政府也需要這個虛權的恐急就是非常需要錢他們真的是嗷嗷待哺已經到了無以復加的地步才會因應其判財化法的修法"},{"start":3399.699,"end":3427.971,"text":"你有什麼看法各位報告卓院長他有發布聲明他說他的發言有被這個斷章取義了但是我們可以想我們現在對中央政府的資源已經達到超過一兆以上如果再額外釋出3753億的話一定會弱化對地方財政的資源一定會嘛不管是如果碰到一些建設也好或者是說災害也好"},{"start":3428.291,"end":3454.689,"text":"那這幾年一直超增,難道你這個都沒有考量進去嗎?連續四年喔!而且超增一兆八千多億喔!所以我剛才跟委員報告過稅收只是總預算的一部分,它的時增數超過預算數但是只是總預算,但是我們還有特別預算所以我們中央是要看整個財源目前還是赤字的"},{"start":3455.069,"end":3455.389,"text":"但事實上"},{"start":3477.003,"end":3478.344,"text":"我是覺得這樣在討論過程當中執政黨委員在這邊也充分表達意見"},{"start":3493.897,"end":3513.062,"text":"但是好像一直都沒有被接受管事長難道中央要集權又集錢地方政府要透過這個搖尾起聯才能夠讓我們掌權掌權的關奈眼神現在這樣是我們執政黨應該奉行的聖經嗎"},{"start":3517.611,"end":3532.822,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個叫財政收支劃分分我知道啊也就是說你在分的時候跟支就要同時要考慮也就是說權跟錢要同時要考慮那只有釋放三千多億所以財政目前中央並沒有集權的問題"},{"start":3533.703,"end":3553.536,"text":"沒有局前大家看在眼裡這些縣市首長為什麼剛剛那個影片難道你沒有看嗎對不對這個都是齁那些影片都是他們在包括前院長蘇貞昌包括歷任很多縣市首長他們的心聲啦尤其"},{"start":3555.943,"end":3581.285,"text":"賴總統他在當總統以前在台南市長這是他講的話我們是把他的話帶到今天讓大家來了解你不要換了一個位置就換了個腦袋而且真的很多我們地方的縣市他們真的苦哈哈的而且講實在話這個是不分藍綠因為財化法修訂以後每個縣市"},{"start":3583.191,"end":3610.262,"text":"就照財化法的規定該給要給那你行政院長又說以後的災害中央完全沒有責任然後又帶到什麼教育啦什麼國防啦講實在話我認為像這樣的官員真的實在是換了位子換了腦袋又來欺騙老百姓是很不應該那你今天早上又去開記者會我看要看他看記者會內容怎麼講"},{"start":3610.962,"end":3638.5,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們的對中央對地方的採取的依註從民國103年那時候才5000多億但是現在成長到114年到超過一兆以上所以這一部分中央從來沒有集錢跟集權所以基本上我們是充分來支援那你釋放給地方讓地方能夠自主哪裡不好啊所以我就覺得要錢跟權要同時好一點要你們提完你們也不提"},{"start":3642.443,"end":3656.311,"text":"反正我認為說啦我看他今天那個記者會和他內容怎麼講我認為齁這個已經修過了你們要提各種方法去抵觸沒有關係我們再看好了謝謝謝謝委員謝謝德福接著請吳秉瑞委員發言來請阮次長阮次長"},{"start":3670.465,"end":3692.783,"text":"委員好剛剛我在台下看感觸很深啊如果在修法在財政委員會可以這樣對話多好哪一位委員有意見可以請教你們財政部請教其他縣市政府的財主單位那我們至少還有一個討論的過程啊是啊那財政委員會在審這個財政收支方法之後有給我們發言的機會嗎"},{"start":3697.014,"end":3716.22,"text":"有讓你們有發言的機會嗎?沒有三分鐘在這個地方 頭文念念 連條子都沒念 通過啦 送到院會去當時的版本是六千億捏 結果在院會到讀之前也沒有經過政黨協商"},{"start":3718.666,"end":3726.266,"text":"到了要審的時候要表決的時候突然拿一個草案出來那個草案是我從頭到我都沒有看過的"},{"start":3727.456,"end":3754.134,"text":"也沒有討論過的,你們有看過嗎?我們沒看過,因為我們在算第一個版本的時候他第二個版本就出來了,第二個版本算好以後第三個版本就出來了所以這個叫做突襲性的立法啦立法院多數版本完全不讓人家知道,表決前幾分鐘拿給你然後我們多數,我們舉手就把你碾壓過去了嘛"},{"start":3754.694,"end":3765.494,"text":"是 我覺得財務法是國家的財政這個是先談程序啦 是程序非常的不正義所以現在擠啊他知道通過之後社會大中要算帳啊"},{"start":3766.863,"end":3786.231,"text":"所以急了在這個地方才趕快這邊發言不然為什麼講跟今天的主題完全都沒有相關的事情呢是第二個你剛剛講的很對啊財政收支劃分當然錢跟權要一起來分配嘛是啊新北市政府突然之間拿到300多億"},{"start":3789.246,"end":3800.454,"text":"過去從現在往前推4年新北市政府為例他的財政全部都是plus就是他有剩餘結果現在立法突然要給他300多億"},{"start":3802.99,"end":3818.637,"text":"臺北市更多那你又沒有讓他要多做什麼事情突然天山掉下來幾百億市政府要怎麼花這條錢我們沒有人知道啊他也沒有法定義務的增加啊"},{"start":3820.245,"end":3840.735,"text":"所以這個是非常的不合理嘛所以我跟委員報告這一次的問題就第一個垂直分配完全沒有討論釋出太多會衝擊到中央的施政好我再因為今天的主題我告訴你我速度稍微快一點你我都心知肚明第三他剛剛放影片說很多縣市長都在說那是2012年的時候對不對那2012年請問馬英九從2008年到2016年當總統"},{"start":3848.298,"end":3856.806,"text":"國民黨如果這麼著急財政收支劃分法當時國民黨立法院的多數啊我第8屆立委的時候民進黨只有40席第7屆民進黨更只有27席"},{"start":3861.96,"end":3884.619,"text":"那是完全免押為什麼他們不通過顯然有非常大的困難嘛是那時候我全程在場那時候全程在場那時候呢就是也就是大家都沒有共識嘛這件事情就是因為要凝聚各縣市的共識所以有非常大的困難馬英九當總統那八年"},{"start":3885.64,"end":3908.675,"text":"大家有一再講說這個財政水準法來討論他也沒有辦法啊他也通不過啊國民黨那時候立法院委員的比例還更多數啊那他們執政的時候有困難但呢現在民進黨執政民進黨也有困難需要比較長的時間來凝聚共識的時候他們就不行了他們就要碾壓了嘛事實就是這樣嘛"},{"start":3909.921,"end":3910.542,"text":"主席"},{"start":3933.775,"end":3960.633,"text":"馬上就要元旦了是元旦101大樓會放煙火是準備了怎麼樣其實跟委員報告一下這個準備是經過一個非常長時間的整個計畫我上任之前8月底的時候整個煙火的預算已經結標了廠商已經拿到這個標案了我是9月3號的時候上任上任之後大概第二天就開始開這個煙火會議了"},{"start":3962.715,"end":3977.907,"text":"當時設定的主題呢在我上任之前設定的主題是共創美好未來那那個時候我會覺得說這個主題可能稍微規矩了一點所以呢我們就把它改成了Amazing Taiwan我們是第二次是這個主題的版本"},{"start":3978.847,"end":3999.089,"text":"接下來就有不斷的煙火的討論的會議最後我們確定的是這次的今年的煙火是5加1分鐘往年通常都是5分鐘那今年我們有加碼了1分鐘那在發書的方面一定也會讓國人非常的驚豔另外就是我們也加了雷射"},{"start":3999.79,"end":4010.357,"text":"臺灣英雄會用一個我要先保密不同的形式出場所以我想其實在這個代表我們臺灣我們最後是因為棒球得了冠軍我們就用Team Taiwan一個冠軍獎杯然後Champion"},{"start":4029.229,"end":4029.389,"text":"謝謝你喔!"},{"start":4049.904,"end":4067.34,"text":"因為國人對這個101的煙火很期待啦所以你一定要很戒慎、小心、要謹慎、要把它放好因為我前面聽到有一些媒體的報導說或是網路啊就說你國慶日的時候的煙火放了後他們沒滿意啦他們不滿意啦"},{"start":4068.021,"end":4068.321,"text":"兆豐金控及財政部莊部長"},{"start":4084.508,"end":4113.974,"text":"要讓世界看到我們台灣這個國家我們在慶祝我們的國慶所以在那個時候非常有限的預算而且是時間非常趕的時候我沒有辦法跟所有的企業做一個招商所以呢我就從我的辦公室裡面擠出了170萬的預算那這個可能是十分之一都不到的跨年煙火那在跨年煙火請放心我們準備好了現在呢就"},{"start":4114.614,"end":4142.235,"text":"希望我會一直去拜拜希望老天爺給我一個非常好的天氣謝謝董事長你上任了之後真的做了很多事情你很會募款我有一些好朋友跟你也有朋友關係他都問我想說很怕你因為你都一直跟人家要錢對我很怕我的朋友都不接我電話了你譬如說舉一個例子所以是為了要這個為偏鄉的棒球基層棒球選手做一些設備的補助所以你有去一個點燈活動"},{"start":4144.137,"end":4148.3,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、"},{"start":4167.134,"end":4167.714,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4187.346,"end":4189.188,"text":"那個評論我是希望你說明在哪裡呢?他們說你是公器私用,獨立自己,有沒有這回事?"},{"start":4206.504,"end":4207.185,"text":"所以你那個放閃你先生也是"},{"start":4230.936,"end":4247.013,"text":"李先生家庭的公司家裡的公司也是捐了60萬跟其他的廠商一樣就對了基本上有一點私企公用那你點的時間有沒有比別人長沒有 全部都一樣這是私企公用私企公用要獨立自己才叫私企公用"},{"start":4247.674,"end":4248.014,"text":"最後一個問題喔"},{"start":4268.3,"end":4294.737,"text":"因為你們都一直滿足啦有人一直在跟我們反映說他想要進去都進不去你們這個方面的標準是一定要到國際的高代價品牌才能夠進入嗎?是,我們一定要是非常就是具有這種國際競爭力的品牌然後也希望是對我們臺灣的未來譬如說科技產業、醫療生技產業、AI產業希望是以這樣子的產業為主目標還有金融產業"},{"start":4295.538,"end":4295.958,"text":"好 謝謝接著請耐斯堡委員發言"},{"start":4338.575,"end":4350.844,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請兆豐的董董事長以及101的賈董事長董事長先請教兆豐的董董事長你那今年應該獲利創新高嗎"},{"start":4364.864,"end":4392.77,"text":"還好 報告委員還好不是還好是創新高嗎沒有沒有沒有比去年更好啦沒有比去年更因為我們在美國的CRE那一部分我們受的受傷蠻嚴重的虧了一些啦但是如果美國不算應該創新高啦對吧美國那一部分如果不算因為上一次的問題法孫的問題如果沒有的話就創新高我現在重點在於年終獎金你要給多少"},{"start":4394.424,"end":4421.124,"text":"報告委員我們現在還在核算不過應該不會比去年平均多少?去年多少?去年去年大概可以到加大概七八個月啦七八個月喔?對啊今年不會比去年差吧?我們希望能夠維持同樣的幅度所以可以上看八個月這就可以成立吧?上看八個月希望可以達到目標明年加薪的幅度勒?"},{"start":4422.08,"end":4430.435,"text":"報告委員3%3%因為我們上次你說上次在這裡你說4%咧沒有沒有3%而已我聽錯了沒有我們另外還有每一年加7%的升級啦"},{"start":4435.714,"end":4458.252,"text":"每一年我們還有加薪晉級那部分大概在一點多%所以那是自然每一年不管有沒有每一年的巡工價價多少巡工價價多少3%啊3%對兆豐加薪叫你賺錢跟政府一樣浪費啊浪費啊報告委員我們獎金可以多發但是薪水我們就比照比照公司好我們請教謝謝我們的前董事長啊"},{"start":4460.287,"end":4475.457,"text":"主席好、委員好你今年啦是今年比去年賺錢吧什麼、什麼今年比去年賺錢吧賺錢是是,我們增加了我們的營業額呢增加了大概7點多趴對7點多趴,那臨終獎金怎麼樣"},{"start":4478.639,"end":4497.267,"text":"我們的年終獎金其實是一個很不錯的,對於員工的福利是一個很不錯的數字可是這個數字我們好像沒有辦法公開因為我要報告董事會啊,董事會沒有要我公開,我不能公開"},{"start":4499.668,"end":4502.19,"text":"今年比去年好,所以當然獎金也比去年多啊。"},{"start":4522.649,"end":4544.598,"text":"好,謝謝委員幫我們的員工徵取這麼多的福利。當然啊!謝謝,謝謝,很感謝。你們的加薪幅度呢?加薪幅度啊,我覺得我的答案要跟董董事長一樣。要3%?3%?不是不是,我們就是會按照比例,然後我們還有各方面的考級,我們還有評審。"},{"start":4547.54,"end":4565.135,"text":"你現在不是只有過去的身份,你現在是某種程度是官員的啦,類官員喔,類似官員我幫你算了你去年的EPS1.15吧,你今年有說比去年好,就是好歹1.25、1.3,你才是較好一點喔,對不對?"},{"start":4569.657,"end":4581.195,"text":"所以今年當然當然要,要漲金要多一點啊好,謝謝委員一直幫助大家我們臺北101的同事應該會很愛你,真的不是,你說,你,你剛好在這裡具體承諾說好,我就這樣做"},{"start":4583.655,"end":4603.622,"text":"我沒有辦法承諾我要跟董事會做報告那如果董事會都同意我們當然是OK啊你董事長你可以講說我希望這樣最後經過董事會的同意這樣就可以啊是是是我更是我們今年你到底心目中有沒有準備辦法多少啦"},{"start":4604.602,"end":4629.821,"text":"我心目中已經有確切的數字了真的而且我們12月18號開董事會的時候我們在今年的所有的這個該發的獎金都已經確認了確認的月數確實都確認好了那個不是什麼機密我們說來這裡來立法院這裡基本上是如實作答這憲法規定的要講實話沒什麼機密這沒什麼機密的而且陪你宣傳啊"},{"start":4631.262,"end":4635.846,"text":"總經理,我確認,我們可以講出實際的數字嗎?當然可以啊,為什麼不能講?奇怪。因為這真的董事會沒有要我講,我不能講,抱歉。還是我之後補資料給你。我們是秘密薪資。"},{"start":4650.757,"end":4662.542,"text":"啊?要保密協議?沒有,EPS我沒有講個人,我講overall的,這不是什麼經歷了。你這個關刀的太短了。你overall我講出來之後你算一算你也知道啊?"},{"start":4663.51,"end":4669.154,"text":"委員我收到我會很努力的把數字在經營方面的數字獲得去年跟蔣萬安今年除了蔣萬安有沒有其他人同工"},{"start":4690.196,"end":4713.061,"text":"蔣萬安然後去年是跟蔣萬安同框那個煙火秀是今年有沒有除了蔣萬安以外有沒有其他人我當然很期望跟蔣萬安市長我們今年應該就是一樣我在上個禮拜跟TVBS那邊開了直播會議因為TVBS是轉播市政府的你應該不要請財政部長財政部長是你的長官"},{"start":4716.082,"end":4718.345,"text":"有一個啊當然每個人看法不一樣啦你跟你老公在怎麼恩愛啊用那個看板弄一個有決同心啦加總市長不宜啦"},{"start":4732.863,"end":4758.27,"text":"好這個不宜啦因為你們怎麼秀恩愛在旁邊的地方這是一個公共的平台你用那個的話人家就會講公器私用啦雖然你不認為這樣子可是你說你捐錢就可以不是啦話不是這樣講董事長你現在等於是某種程度你是官員你的作風舉止要跟你過去的身份是不一樣的要比較嚴謹OK好啦"},{"start":4760.111,"end":4760.431,"text":"財政部董事長"},{"start":4777.22,"end":4785.463,"text":"來 次長你這個人剛才回答的時候就青菜公共完全政治語言啊什麼就沒有討論財劃法從今年的5月20號第一次審查審查會6次公聽會2次"},{"start":4792.486,"end":4815.497,"text":"查會卸上1次委員發言168次還有巡打總共經歷了38小時48分鐘什麼為什麼沒有討論呢你不能這個變成通靈政治化啊這個柔安社長你講這個話我鄙視你啊我瞧不起你啊政治措施在這裡啊請問你有沒有巡打有沒有巡打"},{"start":4816.539,"end":4836.518,"text":"有沒有巡打?有巡打啊,怎麼沒有討論呢?當然有討論啊,怎麼沒有呢?處理的過程,欸,審查會六次耶,怎麼沒有?怎麼會這樣子呢?順便講講另外,有時間不多我就挑重點來講啦,你們來看啊,來,你們發大新聞啊"},{"start":4840.202,"end":4849.633,"text":"完全政治化的新聞稿說 喔 竟然會再播出去我們114年是你們寫的喔 財政部寫的喔114年給地方1.15兆如果再發出去3753會影響經濟發展影響社會福利影響官方安全 真鬼喔"},{"start":4859.639,"end":4873.771,"text":"你們審計部的報告、審計部的報告你不要講了2021年稅金剩餘喔你開了就完了2979億2022年4993億2023年2791億你們根本就是有3000億到5000億根本花都花不完怎麼會影響你的政務笑死人啦這個就政治語言隨便講講啦"},{"start":4887.322,"end":4895.546,"text":"我跟委員報告我是覺得財化法是這樣啦是說不管誰執政這是一個根本大法我們現在要跟地方要夠理性討論我們的溝通我們現在通過的但是現在通過的我們現在意思是說"},{"start":4910.873,"end":4917.598,"text":"在討論過程當中,執政黨的相關委員的發言都沒有採納。這是一個問題。第二個問題就是說,目前對地方的財政資源已經達到一兆多了。"},{"start":4931.227,"end":4942.136,"text":"所以你現在什麼事情都沒有影響你就發3000多億給地方政府有什麼問題呢照樣做什麼意思講影響國防最主要影響什麼國防你還剩3000億到5000億你每年剩3000億到5000億那個錢給地方政府有什麼不對"},{"start":4949.002,"end":4971.69,"text":"我跟委員報告我是覺得財化不是不能夠修正的你講的真的有問題啊大家一定要充分討論你講這個話都聽不懂啊對農事長啊你講話都聽不懂啊我一直跟你講你都沒有回答我你每年剩三千里到五千里那個錢給地方政府有什麼不對有什麼問題但是問題是有什麼東西"},{"start":4974.751,"end":4986.338,"text":"如果再增加三千七百五十三億再加上另外一個條文一般補助款又不能減少你怎麼講補助款我們來看喔來看喔來看喔請你看請你看一下資料我做功課的大家看來來來下一張下一張來"},{"start":4998.854,"end":5025.835,"text":"我們看六都啊我們主要看兩個一個統籌社款一個補助收入補助包括一般補助跟中二補助第一名高雄市第二名新北市第三名台北市台北市沒有拿最多啦第三名113年台北市第四名114年去預算外台北市第五名啦"},{"start":5026.776,"end":5029.077,"text":"臺北市給他416億臺北市就是這樣"},{"start":5044.787,"end":5068.11,"text":"他們跟華老爸講完了,那個郭文燒修理了一下,這個很重要,臺北市增加416億,總共就只有1277億,要輸高雄是不是輸天天天的,高雄還是第一,整會議都是第一,第一,它不是第一就是第二,你再加上去還是第一,"},{"start":5068.59,"end":5088.537,"text":"沒有啦,我覺得這個數字是個修化。我數字在這裡,我數字在這裡什麼叫沒有?我數字在這裡!數字在這裡!所以那個,那個次長啊,你今天的回答啊,不知所云啊!"},{"start":5089.717,"end":5102.521,"text":"完全不進入狀況,心虛啊!車長,你今天來這裡啊,不跟你講什麼啦!我跟你講數字!我跟你講數字!統籌分配稅要加補助款,這個才是全部的!臺北市112年第3名,113年第4名,114年第5名!再加統籌分配稅款,臺北市遠落後,高雄市輸了200億!"},{"start":5118.666,"end":5145.591,"text":"這是事實這是事實這是事實我最後一句話我最後一句話你們每一年剩了快3000億到5000億那些錢給地方大家都很高啊所以不要苦求什麼還恐嚇從龍派開始恐嚇老百姓期需的時候老百姓說天災你給的5000"},{"start":5148.391,"end":5172.887,"text":"卓榮泰啊、石岩啊、所有的批評講話,毫不進入狀況,這些東西我再講一遍,我就下去了主席你三名,你稍安勿躁啦,113年台北市第三名,113年台北市第四名,114年台北市第五名,現在台北市以後第五名"},{"start":5173.507,"end":5193.614,"text":"好多討論啦!大家看這個啦!臺北市不是這樣說啊!大家都愛你們的臺北市!主席!你們點點台南市!我已經多跟你好幾分鐘了啊!這個郭國文委員一直在下面跟我抗議啊!你要嫉妒!那個台南市的你要嫉妒高雄市的!我台南市的很慘啊!我的民間很慘啊!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝"},{"start":5213.284,"end":5221.609,"text":"主席謝謝有請佳瑤姐董事長跟兆豐金的董董好請佳瑤姐董事長跟董董事長"},{"start":5236.321,"end":5253.594,"text":"委員好 董事長好 董事長您稍微休息一下我先問賈董一下賈董主持人好 委員好你知道你現在的這個股東當中伊藤忠有打算要出脫他的持股嗎我知道那你知道未來的動向是如何嗎"},{"start":5254.646,"end":5270.76,"text":"目前不太確切知道這個東西一直傳聞要撤資因為伊藤忠來所佔的這個股份高達32%他影響到的是未來到底是101呢是屬於關股主導還是屬於這個民股主導那過民轉工"},{"start":5276.424,"end":5292.256,"text":"總是有一個過程所以應該知道這件事情如果今天是民股主導的話或許將來就不用跑立法院了不是嗎今天如果假設是關股主導的話您就要常常在這邊出現不是嗎我沒關係欸不管我要不要跑立法院都可以大公大樂就見慣了"},{"start":5293.177,"end":5307.289,"text":"但是我覺得比較重要的一點應該是我們臺灣是要讓外資覺得我們是一個自由經濟我們是可以一個自由交易的國家一個健康的金融環境我覺得這個會非常的重要"},{"start":5310.611,"end":5329.082,"text":"關於資本市場的事情你不用太過擔心啦就我知道伊藤忠已經有讓5%給稀鬆臺灣了然後現階段來說的話范工股的話大概掌握大概有幾%你知道嗎51%52%然後另外一部分有一個關鍵的地方是在哪裡呢"},{"start":5329.562,"end":5349.233,"text":"是在於中間的部分有一個所謂的中聯信託的部分是屬於代管的狀況對,中央存保代管中央存保代管就看他的股份有沒有持續的出脫他如果一樣持續的出脫來處分他以前的不良資產的一個負擔的話那可能關股的變化就有所影響"},{"start":5349.933,"end":5352.275,"text":"我可以跟委員報告一下其實我了解得非常的深入"},{"start":5367.725,"end":5385.849,"text":"不然我不會在上個禮拜的時候呢我就快閃日本兩天一夜14個小時快閃所以在整個的細節的掌控上面呢我是為董事長那快閃日本是去找一團周嗎當然是啊那狀況怎麼樣呢你要說你剛剛都不知道你也跑了一趟日本怎麼會都不知道呢"},{"start":5386.249,"end":5387.771,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營業"},{"start":5402.749,"end":5404.59,"text":"我希望在你任內不是做到台北101而應該做到台灣101為什麼"},{"start":5419.457,"end":5439.473,"text":"因為剛剛來說的話你所對口的對象是在停留在蔣萬安市長的情況你根本忘記的是財政部長的邀請或行政院長的邀請所以說我為什麼一開始跟你講說那關股的比例是什麼這代表它是屬於國家層級不是一個市府層級也就是說它不是一個臺北101它應該是臺灣1101你有沒有認同"},{"start":5441.474,"end":5458.971,"text":"我認同我非常認同啊好如果說你都認同的話就符合你在網頁上的slogan要把整個呢臺灣帶向全世界對不對所以說這種情況底下如何把臺北101證明變臺灣101或定位成臺灣101我認為是賈董你的任務啊"},{"start":5463.035,"end":5482.99,"text":"我的任務真的是這樣子,所以我們的跨年煙火呢,我們就是Team Taiwan Champion,我們就是要把台灣是世界冠軍的這件事情呢,昭告全天下,昭告全世界,是的,謝謝所以以後呢,就不是台北101,以後就是台灣101?要改名嗎?不是改名啊,這是通稱啊!"},{"start":5484.451,"end":5485.912,"text":"兆豐金控及臺北金融大樓股份"},{"start":5505.273,"end":5529.305,"text":"不管是臺北或臺灣當然能夠臺灣是更好啦不過101是最重要的啦101當然是最重要沒有101前面都沒有但是臺灣跟臺北定位不一樣啊董董如果是臺灣的話會更好所以我是最後是說那個董董你就上來了因為你是公股的部分嘛到底接下來101是董事長制跟這個總經理制就你的理解是怎麼樣以你最大的股東來說"},{"start":5530.543,"end":5554.051,"text":"我覺得我們都是官派的董事長所以基本上就是說我們不是真正掌握股權的董事長所以其實應該還是一個董事長制還是以董事長制為主我自己定位是說我們是財政部所派過來的專業經理人所以至少他是一個執行長所以說1011應該是董事長制對不對你的認知上我覺得所有官派的應該都是這樣子"},{"start":5555.392,"end":5555.532,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5570.493,"end":5570.914,"text":"我瞭解啊"},{"start":5591.974,"end":5620.832,"text":"謝謝我們一定會朝這個目標前進那賈董請回我接下來問一下那個請那個阮次跟那個上台一下那請董董留下來一下董董我看這個題目改天再問你我時間才有限你請回好了董董那個阮次剛剛我覺得必須要回應一下幾個問題必須說為什麼沒有討論的原因是怎麼樣6612版本我們或許知道可是3753的版本你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":5621.112,"end":5621.312,"text":"不是嗎?是。"},{"start":5649.005,"end":5666.719,"text":"再加上說所謂的中央啊你的寫法中央會變錢不夠地方錢太多那我就問你啊中央錢不夠的話地方錢太多那他說中央每一年都很有錢我問你我看一個圖表這幾年包括證交稅、中小稅、營業稅跟營所稅是景氣財吧"},{"start":5670.871,"end":5690.763,"text":"是這幾年景氣比較好對不對對那如果萬一明年景氣比較不好的時候你還有稅金的剩餘3000億、4000億、5000億嗎還有可能嗎所以這個它是有很大的變動性所以它很大的變動性你也要講嘛對外面就要誤導說每年我們有稅金益益多少我再請一下陳副主委上來一下"},{"start":5691.755,"end":5716.466,"text":"我外面看到的所謂的景氣的循環從2000年以來那個陳副主任你知道整個景氣的循環平均大概多少個月大概十三個月大概41.2個月41.2個月就超過三年了你覺得我們股市已經那個多頭已經幾年了也三年多了啦"},{"start":5717.631,"end":5742.696,"text":"所以說依照這個緊續循環齁 老實講一定八個月啊 你知道嗎 已經北風月了所以我要讓財政部知道 在整個政策編戶的過程當中 連同金管會的整個緊續循環你清楚接下來你的預測 如果說接下來 如果還不是多頭市場的話我們證交稅不能扣到那麼多錢的話 還有這麼多稅金 請阮次昌來回答一下"},{"start":5745.546,"end":5756.637,"text":"跟委員報告的確這幾年因為我們的經濟狀況不錯那國內外的景氣也算是平穩那沒有的時候怎麼辦所以這幾年的確證交稅舉債嗎但是我是覺得經濟總是會有循環就像剛才委員提的將來就很難保證說會不會繼續再有這麼好的成績對啊"},{"start":5769.589,"end":5789.851,"text":"對,所以我是覺得我剛才講的是說稅收只是我們總預算的一部分對那但是我們在看整個稅收整個裁員的時候是看總加總預算對嘛,我的問題是說你中央不夠你要不要舉債我問你第一個問題第一個是這個而且另外他還有一個一般補助款他還把你框在那邊對不對又不能動嘛"},{"start":5792.233,"end":5795.154,"text":"據我了解現在有一些就是單純就是我們中央給他的錢給地方的錢就有一些超過他的稅出對嘛"},{"start":5814.582,"end":5832.478,"text":"所以我是說我們很擔心說這樣會影響到財政紀律的問題法律上是說不能變動但是執行成效不佳的時候你也不能讓它浪費不是嗎是所以說也沒有說一定要匡列不能比前年一年度少你預算可以編但是執行不一定要執行到嘛"},{"start":5832.858,"end":5834.179,"text":"兆豐金控及財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員"},{"start":5857.368,"end":5870.784,"text":"財政收支方法是國家的根本大法不是哪一黨執政都不能這樣亂搞啊一搞到後來就是禍國殃民啊你知道嗎而且一修了以後就很難再動它"},{"start":5872.025,"end":5892.142,"text":"一修很難帶動他那我就問你嘛如果說他的修法之後至愛難情的時候那財政部有沒有提出修法的可能性這一部分我跟委員報告我們現在是會同這個主席總書在盤點他的影響跟他未來可能的因應措施那這一部分我們會提供給相關的決策單位來做參考做決策所以說不排除再修法是吧"},{"start":5893.923,"end":5901.827,"text":"這個你要問清要趕快有一個因應的方式否則一般的民間非常的焦慮做一個財主部門的話一定要面對這個問題市長請回謝謝"},{"start":5921.734,"end":5926.921,"text":"請內會委員召委質詢有請兆豐金控董董事長及佳永傑董事長"},{"start":5944.508,"end":5967.96,"text":"委員好兩位董事長早安我先請教一下我們的兆豐獨董事長是要跟您請教就是說在兩週前中租低合發布了一個重大的信息他表示說董事會已經通過了跟兆豐銀行簽訂了一個65億的一個連帶案連帶的一個合約這是事實嘛對不對"},{"start":5973.283,"end":5975.365,"text":"董事長,你怎麼樣看這個?"},{"start":5999.2,"end":6016.554,"text":"我們通常在授信的時候授信合約裡面我們都有提到就是說他的資金用途是受到限制的所以如果說他資金用途是已經違背原本我們所訂的合約的話那我們當然會有一些措施啊比如說加碼啦或者是減額度啦或者說要求他部分或全部提前還款"},{"start":6017.614,"end":6032.499,"text":"所以董事長如果像你這樣講的話你會是一個穿透式的一個管理就是說所有我們年代借給他的這個65億他不能去做汽車的貸款然後也不能去做先租後買"},{"start":6034.339,"end":6057.926,"text":"先買後戶,也不會留到房地產去嗎?報告委員,如果他是屬於企業所租用的汽車而不是個人,因為我們所規範是,就他不能做個人的租賃啦,他如果是,譬如說我是一家公司,那我的公司我需要租車,那我就跟租賃公司來租,那這樣是可以的"},{"start":6058.206,"end":6071.871,"text":"所以董事長你講的非常清楚嘛他可以把錢借給法人可是不能借給個人那他的真信如果要借給個人的話他的真信必須要是周全的所以這些你們都會監督他"},{"start":6074.014,"end":6096.681,"text":"這些你們都會監督他?對,我們要看單據的除了看單據以外你們還會去注重什麼?當然我們每一個案件我們都會有所謂AOAO的話就會去看公司的營運狀況跟他所有資金的流向這些其實我們都會控管的都會控管的?那是每個月控管的?對,因為還是每季?"},{"start":6097.881,"end":6100.445,"text":"這個定期的話會不會是一年一次還是每季一次?"},{"start":6112.21,"end":6137.111,"text":"我們一般檢討的話大概就定期大概說三個月左右啦好 這個三個月啦因為我們會有固定一個檢討機制啦好 杜董事長我想這個穿透式的一個管理對這個主任公司的一個那個約束是非常重要的所以說我們也期待就是說我們也不要污名化啦那我們也希望就是說它可以就是慢慢的導入一個正軌那就是說"},{"start":6138.692,"end":6140.093,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資"},{"start":6153.584,"end":6164.548,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝獨董事長接著我們請佳遠傑董事長董事長早安主席好,委員早安那在這裡跟你探討,臺北101還是臺灣101是如郭工委員講的,我們期待"},{"start":6170.992,"end":6184.611,"text":"臺灣101是那我們也知道就是說你從這個9月3號上任以後你也一直做了很多很多的一個努力那如果我們從臺北市的主要的一個關關的遊客人數上來調查的話"},{"start":6186.513,"end":6203.667,"text":"這一份調查圖是從2022年到2014年11月的統計總表我們整體來看的話不管是西門町還是松山文創、陽明山還是臺北101其實臺北101是排序第四我在這裡請教賈董事長就是說"},{"start":6209.731,"end":6235.721,"text":"臺北101這一個國家是以哪一個國家的遊客為主目前其實國家就是國外觀光客來客數占比最多的是韓國人但是對但是呢我必須跟您報告一下就是在9月份開始就是我們陸陸續續尤其是到了11月我們夢想高飛的棒球展開始的時候呢日本遊客增加了86%在整個總體"},{"start":6238.882,"end":6268.063,"text":"對﹑對﹑"},{"start":6268.283,"end":6295.872,"text":"所以從頭到尾那你說你大量的就是那個播放臺灣的一個在地的流行音樂是那我們也當然希望就是說你可以帶到周邊的遊客這個經濟效應你有沒有去評估它它會帶動了多少的一個遊客人數跟經濟效應呢我想跟委員今天報告的就是說我們目前對我有一個部分需要更正剛才那個"},{"start":6298.065,"end":6324.984,"text":"剛才我們的同事趕快立刻跟我說因為光雕的贊助的部分這一次是國泰金控麻煩所有的媒體朋友們幫我稍微更正一下是國泰金控在這個部分我們在觀光署的就是近的觀光的人數上面我覺得其實是會大幅的增加因為其實CNN已經將我們的煙火跨年煙火"},{"start":6326.365,"end":6342.11,"text":"我們需要一個比較具體的那當然就是說用燕景的美好的臺灣美好的未來這一個我想在財政委員會裡頭我們希望講一些比較具體的我從101的一個表現必須要轉向"},{"start":6343.69,"end":6344.911,"text":"關錦台遊客人數最高240萬"},{"start":6364.763,"end":6383.896,"text":"這個時候有入客這個是最高的一直到2021年這個是因為疫情所以它變少了2023慢慢又爬升到了2024其實現在已經回到一個最穩定的狀況那又有其實還是有差委員當然160萬到2019年是245萬"},{"start":6389.059,"end":6416.469,"text":"對,我要問你2025你預計它會怎麼樣轉強呢?你有什麼樣的一個計畫呢?我2025年呢我們在觀景台呢其實我們因為這次的展覽呢真的是非常的成功所以接下來呢我們還是會用這種主題展覽的形式那整個用主題展覽的形式呢增加我們的整個的來客數尤其是我們的國人我們的國人其實很多人沒有上去過所以在這邊"},{"start":6418.049,"end":6434.278,"text":"我現在講的就是說光景臺的一個遊客的人數的一個指標我們可以看到了就是101的營收的一個表現是 沒錯 沒錯顯然就是說這個已經跨出了一個非常重要的穩定的一步"},{"start":6435.619,"end":6444.288,"text":"那在2025你期待它會有多少人我期待應該可以到180萬耶180萬對好我們現在就把2025列為180萬人次好那就是一個目標那接著"},{"start":6450.034,"end":6475.879,"text":"接著就是說我們再來跟你探討就是說這個101公司的一個股權的結構是那這個股權的結構事實上就是說在我們再上一頁再上一頁對在這裡這個剛才講得很清楚那郭公文委員又請教你就是說伊藤忠這個投資的股份有限公司他其實佔了37.17%是我們最大股東"},{"start":6476.999,"end":6495.764,"text":"對,是我們最大的股東是民股會去轉關股還是關股會去轉民股這個其實他這一個就是說外商的一個投資這個是一個非常大的一個轉換的一個標的物那當然我們也很重視這個案子"},{"start":6497.985,"end":6522.587,"text":"那好那基本上現在已經是浪出了5%了確定是浪出了5%我可以跟委員報告一下他浪出了5%但是實際上也是他的子公司也是他的子公司好那顯然就是說還是還是在這一個伊藤忠的一個投資公司裡頭還是在你的那個轉控裡頭那我特別要請教你一點就是說"},{"start":6523.629,"end":6527.318,"text":"當初這個101是哪一個建設公司來蓋的你知道嗎?"},{"start":6528.607,"end":6553.605,"text":"是宏國嗎?對,是宏國,2024它是全世界最高的一個立建築我想這個整體就是說其實基本上啦2004年蓋的吧對,2004開始建構那事實上就是說其實在早期那個伊藤忠的前手你也知道是鼎興"},{"start":6555.766,"end":6557.148,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所"},{"start":6573.049,"end":6578.514,"text":"請您特別慧心,倒是有一點,您的營收我們希望期待能轉強,如果從2013年的108億到2023年的22億,其實成長了兩倍"},{"start":6591.064,"end":6606.591,"text":"其實如果10年前成長2倍可是那時候臺灣的總體的GDP才15兆那現在是23.5兆其實這個中間有一個1.6倍所以我們期待就是說你的"},{"start":6607.231,"end":6627.388,"text":"銀收轉強的底氣是非常強的那再回到大家關心的就是說你先生的這個德傑集團那其實在這個2022年這個是陽明海運他投下了就是說他租了一個業他的費用好像是500萬"},{"start":6630.411,"end":6644.888,"text":"我跟您報告一下因為它是整棟樓然後跟您報告一下在那個今年的那個國泰金控的光雕呢我們的金額高於這個超多的所以每一個廣告呢它有不一樣的case"},{"start":6645.629,"end":6645.949,"text":"主席主席主席是一樣的"},{"start":6673.655,"end":6698.281,"text":"每一家我們總共有十家企業所有的條件都一樣等一下等一下我們每一個企業我們每一個企業可以有八個字所有的問題怎麼會是我們等一下呢你應該讓我把問題問完啊對不起是啊Sorry很少看到到這裡來的董事長是像你這麼強勢的啊你不被人家佩服啊So sorry sorry sorry是這"},{"start":6699.821,"end":6716.549,"text":"提醒你一次是公益的點燈還是商業的廣告這個請你三思目前為止你都表現得非常好不要落入被大家告訴你說你是公器私用這個是我們大家對你的一個期待謝謝主席"},{"start":6730.014,"end":6755.027,"text":"謝謝顏寬恆委員,接著請顏寬恆委員發言主席各位立席官員大家早主席有請財政部阮次長好,請阮次長委員早次長早次長"},{"start":6756.48,"end":6776.399,"text":"本來要請教部長,因為部長請假。與各國簽署利免雙重課稅協定是政府重要的政策目標。ADTA主要是要消除跨國企業在兩國之間重複課稅的問題。"},{"start":6779.922,"end":6803.26,"text":"為了跨境投資者提供更具吸引力的一個稅務環境我方已經派員赴美國華府進行過一輪的實體諮商未來將積極地推動洽簽臺美避免雙重課稅協定儘管雙方在技術細節還有政策原則上已經取得進展"},{"start":6805.042,"end":6811.46,"text":"目前ADTA仍然停留在美國參議院等待立法程序完成通過"},{"start":6813.537,"end":6835.293,"text":"這使得這個協定最後落實也會面臨挑戰所以我要請教次長說明一下這個相關的進度那包含我國跟美方在ADTA這個是不是已經針對主要分歧點達成共識那第二個就是川普政府在執政之後對ADTA的態度有沒有明顯的改變特別是針對美國"},{"start":6836.655,"end":6843.968,"text":"川普總統鼓勵企業回流還有改革全球稅制的政策會不會影響我們ADTA的一個推動"},{"start":6845.266,"end":6872.848,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員的垂詢那目前就是臺美之間的諸位協定我們一直都跟美方保持密切的聯繫包括財政部跟國會部門都有那特別是國會部門已經提出相關的一些法案只是呢它因為涉及到國內法的一些正義的問題所以一直在這邊沒辦法通過沒辦法通過那但是呢"},{"start":6874.308,"end":6886.993,"text":"這個要洽簽臺美租稅協定是在美方來講他們是跨黨派的支持跨黨派的支持所以因為租稅協定的簽署可以加強雙邊的經貿往來而且可以促進投資"},{"start":6892.515,"end":6916.888,"text":"有分歧點的部分是不是已經獲得一個溝通然後已經有共識這個因為涉及美國內政我們不適合去評論了但是我們會跟美方繼續來溝通那也會會同我們國內相關單位那麼積極跟美方的相關單位那川普1月22日就職那上台之後會不會對於這些我們ADTA的推動有沒有一些改變"},{"start":6918.508,"end":6941.673,"text":"我就覺得因為他還沒上任嘛還沒上任他的政策到底怎麼樣可能還在觀察但是我是跟委員報告就是作為協定他的功能就是促進就是避免雙方課稅嘛降低這個投資成本而且可以促進投資跟經貿往來嘛所以這個是跟川普總統他的主張是一致的所以我認為是未來應該是我們是審慎樂觀啦"},{"start":6944.494,"end":6965.254,"text":"所以就是為了要提升我國的國際競爭力還有一個負稅的環境那是包括很多台商都關心因為財政部這邊能夠希望說繼續努力完成現階段的一個挑戰跟美方的溝通一定要再加強盡早完成協定的一個立法程序那我國的企業跟外資"},{"start":6966.875,"end":6967.816,"text":"2023年12月12日宣布修正小規模營業人營業稅的起徵點"},{"start":6983.573,"end":6993.838,"text":"那從明年的1月1號開始買賣業等銷售貨物業的一個起徵點從每月銷售額8萬元調高到10萬元那裝潢業等銷售勞務業起徵點從4萬調高到5萬那"},{"start":7005.435,"end":7028.802,"text":"這項預計可以使大概12萬家的小規模營業人受惠減稅利益達10.68億這是自從2007年以來首次調整起徵點反映物價上漲的經濟現實本次調整是否能夠充分的紓解小規模營業人的稅務負擔能夠達到政策目標這是我第一個問題"},{"start":7031.444,"end":7047.548,"text":"再請教市長這一次起徵點的調高幅度是參酌2007到今年的我們消費者CPI指數上漲25%來進行調整那這一次的調幅是不是足以反映這17年來物價跟經濟環境的變遷這是第一個問題"},{"start":7052.45,"end":7061.795,"text":"財政部表示,調高起徵點後可減輕小規模營業人的尊重成本及基金機關的基金成本"},{"start":7063.972,"end":7086.73,"text":"請市長具體說明說這一次的政策對於我們剛剛提到的這些成本是否有除了調高之外起徵點調高之外是否有長遠的計畫2007到2024經過這麼多年才做這樣起徵點的一個調整那起徵點調整之後稅務的改革是不是到這邊就停下來有沒有中期長期的計畫請市長說"},{"start":7088.391,"end":7103.645,"text":"跟委員報告,剛才委員也都針對這整個過程都有充分的說明那感謝委員在這方面都有充分的掌握那事實上這個有關這個營業稅的課徵的確跟物價有充分的關聯"},{"start":7106.648,"end":7129.54,"text":"所以我們這一次才是參考我們這幾年來的物價上漲情況把這個貨物的銷售貨物的這個提升點由8萬提升到10萬那麼銷售老物呢那麼就由4萬調升到5萬那從明年1月1號開始施行然後剛才講也是受益大概12萬家左右這個都有"},{"start":7131.141,"end":7144.068,"text":"那將來我在想既然這個有關起徵點它是跟我們物價是密切相關的所以我們未來我們會這個試實際的營業的狀況來做還有包括這個物價上漲的狀況來做混動的檢討"},{"start":7149.611,"end":7168.596,"text":"市長請教說除了這一次我們起徵點提高了嘛對不對那我們什麼時候會看到更具體的更長期的一個稅制改革還有確保這些稅收公平與效率的提升的一個重要政策所以現在起徵點已經提升了後面要做什麼"},{"start":7170.477,"end":7174.279,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會議"},{"start":7189.769,"end":7211.877,"text":"其他的我們現在就這樣就是第一個剛剛講的委員剛剛催省說那這個金融成本會不會降低那我們把那個起徵點提高以後那些就不用很適合萬家就不用課稅嘛所以當然金成本會往下降那當然就是就這個小規模營業事業的課稅除了起徵點之外另外一個我們叫做這個這個查訂課徵的一個"},{"start":7215.418,"end":7216.759,"text":"市長,因為時間有限,我們經過了14年才做一次起徵點的調整"},{"start":7233.789,"end":7235.471,"text":"臺北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會議"},{"start":7253.729,"end":7255.011,"text":"主席有請金融會陳副主委金融會陳副主委"},{"start":7268.587,"end":7287.977,"text":"是主席委員好副主委因為上次我們那個彭主委來這個備詢的時候我有質詢他就提最後提到打詐的問題但是因為時間有限所以沒有辦法完整的聽到這個彭主委的一個回覆所以今天再跟副主委請教根據警論署這個統計通報112年詐騙案件發生數37823比111年增加了8314件"},{"start":7298.522,"end":7323.229,"text":"8300億事件增幅達28.17%所以顯示出金管會現在的防詐措施效果有限效果有限成果不滿意沒有辦法令人滿意打造的力道還需要再加強再提升金管會目前已經推動了很多項的措施什麼交易監管、身份證身份認證加強還有教育宣導"},{"start":7323.809,"end":7349.61,"text":"但是從這些數據看來就是沒有辦法達到目標,沒有辦法,除非你告訴我說,112年、111年的征服,你們是滿意的你們是滿意的,你如果這樣說,我就,我就,你會這麼認為嗎?這是第一個,第二個就是說金融會是否有更進一步的規劃來應付詐欺的問題跟挑戰,是不是考慮提升其他的一些手段"},{"start":7350.33,"end":7378.514,"text":"或者是一些做法、一些計畫您會時間有限請說明是謝謝其實對於打詐這種東西天下武功為快不破其實以往的話我們是本來一天只有一次這個投資詐騙其實是最大宗本來一天一次我們從交易所到金管會再到警政單位這邊去通報下架現在呢一天已經改為三次而且呢周邊單位每一個時段裡面呢都會把這個最新的問題廣告送到交易所"},{"start":7378.974,"end":7383.115,"text":"副主委我知道這些是做法跟手段但是我們看到的是成效征服28.17%這個就是沒有辦法讓人可以接受你打詐"},{"start":7408.86,"end":7409.92,"text":"接著請黃珊珊委員花言"},{"start":7443.966,"end":7454.884,"text":"謝謝主席,我請金管會副主委還有兆豐金董事長好,金管會陳副主委還有兆豐金董事長是,主席委員好"},{"start":7460.394,"end":7487.948,"text":"兩位好我想最近我們最關心的就是不肖的融資註定公司現在已經升級到勾結詐騙集團這件事情已經不是秘密最近發生的兩位不知道知不知道已經有台版的地面師地面師用詐騙集團先騙了錢再叫被害人去向融資借貸公司貸款設定抵押權"},{"start":7489.108,"end":7505.724,"text":"最高的被騙了1600萬兩年之內合作詐騙了20多個民眾總金額高達3億所以董事長你們銀行公會答應說12月要出爐的專法研議案出來了沒"},{"start":7509.296,"end":7532.325,"text":"報告委員這個進度上應該還沒有因為我們是委外委託外界的一家上次11月的時候你說12月中啊現在12月底啦應該要提出一個期中報告啦期中報告出來了沒有應該要快提出來所以我要再追一下我要問的是時間表我已經等你們一年了所以你上次11月說12月中現在12月底那請問什麼時候會出來"},{"start":7534.386,"end":7535.107,"text":"如果銀行公會你們一直"},{"start":7550.898,"end":7566.573,"text":"說在銀行工會研究嘛那銀行工會出來以後你打算什麼時候針對融資公司的管理做相關的處理因為之前在立專法之前我知道你們有一些做法但是這個專法案我也一樣我需要時間表"},{"start":7567.742,"end":7594.918,"text":"他的報告出來你多久可以做一個政策性的處理是因為專法的一個研究我們還沒有看到一個成果出來就像委員剛剛說的我們先用金融融資公司法立法院曾經都有過版本了我們也提了版本其他的委員也提了版本大家都提了版本我相信有版本可以參考不用那麼不用重新來過好嗎是我只需要知道你的時間表沒有時間表"},{"start":7596.499,"end":7620.578,"text":"金管會沒有時間表就是年底這個時候我們還是要等先等這個報告出來我只需要你多少時間啊好他12月底出來你1月份給我一個報告你大概要多少時間表好嗎是謝謝第二個融資公司融資注定要納入金融消費者保護法是之前金管會所說的現在進度怎麼樣還是你們又被摸頭了"},{"start":7621.243,"end":7623.745,"text":"什麼時候把融資租賃公司至少上市櫃的部分納入金融消費者保護法有這麼難回答嗎?"},{"start":7648.274,"end":7661.26,"text":"是我們預計希望是在明年中明年中又要半年這個其實因為我們司法出來還要預告公聽所以在將公聽會立院這邊公聽會其實520的時候從520開始我們已經等了半年了你現在還要在公聽會還要再半年我再問一次"},{"start":7671.283,"end":7693.792,"text":"把資本額達到一定規模以上的上市櫃融資註定公司納入金融消費者保護法有這麼難嗎?報告委員那個30年的問題我們520上來的時候其實根本沒有解決方案是我們後來提出的解決方案我們預計明年如果一切的順利的話所以你的專法可能半年以後了是嗎?"},{"start":7694.878,"end":7697.399,"text":"我們現在目前為止的租賃公會也有一個自律公約其實根據統計數有自律公約就不會有這種事了嘛"},{"start":7716.219,"end":7743.668,"text":"地面師跑到臺灣來兩年內騙了20多人3億元設定抵押權欸這更嚴重欸不是把他錢騙走欸還讓他去負債欸副主委啊我知道主委很想做我也知道你很想做我希望盡快做時間表我只需要時間表你可以不用現在回答我一個月內給我時間表三個月五個月一年都可以否則你十年也可以講出來"},{"start":7744.568,"end":7744.588,"text":"時間暫停"},{"start":7761.823,"end":7787.172,"text":"公股銀行有沒有銀行轉投資融資租賃業沒有沒有嗎那我怎麼猜在相關的租賃單的公會裡面看到臺慶、中小慶、益銀、華南銀、華南金都有他們是有授信給他們授信給他們授信所以也是有的但是沒有不是投資好那就是授信給他們他們也算是融資租賃的會員之一"},{"start":7788.386,"end":7811.925,"text":"這些公股銀行當然很受我們控制我們也希望成為所謂剛剛講前面應該納管的這些人的示範這些示範總可以先做嘛因為金管會最近有一個韓嘛那韓他有就是逐步納管嘛納管相關融資註定公司所以財政部也麻煩公股銀行要當"},{"start":7813.186,"end":7815.027,"text":"我上次在3月份質詢的就是所謂的簡訊檔碼"},{"start":7839.656,"end":7860.719,"text":"短碼的部分公股銀行希望能夠納入111短碼平台希望他有自己的短碼才不會讓民眾收到假的簡訊所以兆豐銀行加入了好銀行公會裡面有多少人加入目前好像據我所了解大概只有兆豐加入而已所以來金管會"},{"start":7863.112,"end":7877.717,"text":"兆豐銀行加入了對兆豐已經推出來了那我們是不是所有的銀行業者應該鼓勵他們加入啊是我們都有在這個公會啊其他地方都有鼓勵大家加入反正一樣公股銀行先做可以嗎財政部"},{"start":7882.574,"end":7906.693,"text":"短碼平台兆豐銀行已經加入了是,所有公股銀行都要加入,可以嗎?已經在做了好,什麼時候會做完?不知道一直都在做短碼平台短碼平台,對,我們來是不是請這個董事長來做說明全部的銀行只有兆豐銀行做啦財政部的公股銀行沒有權做啦來,董事長請說"},{"start":7908.442,"end":7937.123,"text":"報告委員因為這牽涉到整個費用的問題我知道所以大家一起去談嘛對所以我是希望用銀行公會方式跟三大電信公司我們談一個更好的一個deal很好所以董事長我也需要的是你的時間表是一個月之內給我報告你要怎麼做什麼時候會做到好嗎好要有計畫嘛要有時程好時間暫停我想請101的賈董事長好請賈董事長還有證交所"},{"start":7938.429,"end":7960.023,"text":"好 證交所 文武董事長謝謝是董事長我想喔我也好剛剛講都在講很多的詐騙101是臺灣重要的金融中心而且也是非常重要的金融指標但是曾經發生過從2009年開始就有發生過"},{"start":7964.486,"end":7993.215,"text":"相關的詐騙集團因為設置在101大樓然後讓投資人覺得哇這公司好大喔好氣派喔所以投資了一大堆錢被騙我想問一下目前為止證交所跟兆豐金都是投資人主要的董事股東所以我們對於所謂的租客在101大樓我們有沒有什麼審查機制或者是我們有對租客的有什麼條件"},{"start":7994.997,"end":8012.127,"text":"這個部分委員我跟您報告其實我基本上也差一點變成受害者在2009年的時候確實有這樣子的公司來approach我們那我們現在的機制呢其實我們真的會很認真的審查這家公司的財務的狀況有的審查會還是什麼有什麼機制"},{"start":8015.009,"end":8025.765,"text":"我們在整個的背後的法務在整個的金融的機制而且現在目前進駐我們的單位全部都是國際大公司第二個因為我們現在查"},{"start":8027.546,"end":8043.279,"text":"新一路5段7號地址有447筆公司登記同樣的將近有500筆還有包括分公司國際的企業我們都非常歡迎但是一樣我們還是希望有一個機制不要再發生2009年開始當時的復通證券凱盛財務公司發生問題之後那時候就說有機制"},{"start":8052.447,"end":8068.619,"text":"2018年又發生了富南市傳銷的問題2020年又發生了斬頭投資的詐騙案所以有機制還是不斷的發生現在是2024年我今天要說的是董事長來接任了我們就希望101不要在以後還會再發生類似的問題因為放在101就會騙到人"},{"start":8073.343,"end":8091.674,"text":"是,我這個我了解投資人看到他公司登記在101就認為他是國際大企業這才是問題報告,報告委員在這個部分呢我上任的時候我已經請集合清查出所有登記在我們101上面的公司是否為確實的公司也給一下我們財委會你剛剛所說的你們查核的機制跟相關的查核的狀況如果有問題的"},{"start":8099.599,"end":8099.659,"text":"好嗎?好,謝謝"},{"start":8128.169,"end":8129.549,"text":"李坤澄委員花言"},{"start":8156.26,"end":8172.981,"text":"委員好董事長好101這次今年要放的跨年煙火其實我有先看到這個預告片大概好像70幾秒不過這個預告片好像是先從你個人的臉書上面先放出來的確實那跟平常的做法不太一樣"},{"start":8173.782,"end":8195.727,"text":"是,委員可以跟您報告一下因為呢,通常這個記者會呢都會是開一個記者會然後呢,再讓記者朋友們拿到這個影像那但是呢,在跟我報告的時候我先想說,這個記者會好像也要花一筆蠻可觀的預算但是呢不會啦,你來開記者會不用花什麼預算"},{"start":8196.567,"end":8221.237,"text":"那還是有嘛你還是要有一些硬體的設施還是會有一些預算那反正就是同事們提報了這個預算之後我說其實我們可以用一個節省的方式然後又更有效益更好玩的方式來做宣傳所以呢我就先跟王世堅委員我不知道你有沒有看到那個影片那個先導的影片我有看過對對對所以我們這是有步驟的"},{"start":8222.017,"end":8230.605,"text":"我們先跟王世堅委員先導影片跟這個後來這個模擬的煙火影片我都有看過啦是所以呢王世堅委員開了這個影片之後重點在於我是說這個宣導的這個影片就是你這個跨年煙火的這個75秒的影片"},{"start":8238.632,"end":8238.792,"text":"董事長"},{"start":8265.007,"end":8286.403,"text":"委員這樣子才會有流量我用我的個人的流量share給了101的流量101的流量才能被我養起來當然你個人流量是大於101可是就是說我認為這樣做其實是本末倒置其實你應該是你身為101董事長你是這個101的代表人你不是只有你個人而已"},{"start":8286.983,"end":8313.161,"text":"所以其實你應該是先放在101的這一個開個記者會然後放完之後你再用個人的臉書再把它導流到你的個人臉書上面記者會花錢我這樣我才花了一萬塊錢那今天是因為你是101的董事長那你是賈永傑你是具有高知名度但是我是認為說這個你還是要考慮一下次序是先有101才有這個賈永傑董事長"},{"start":8314.182,"end":8332.861,"text":"不是先有佳永傑才有這個101不是先有101這個跨年煙火可是我把我的這個流量也是串回去啊我們是一個共通的平台啊那你也可以開個記者會之後然後再把這個影片再導入你個人的這個留言書上面一樣可以啊可是我就不想花這個錢嘛"},{"start":8338.25,"end":8358.507,"text":"因為這個預算就是審下來了之後這是給你一個建議啦就是說以後你要先想到的是你個人你是佳穩潔但是你現在同時也是101的董事長101董事長的身份其實要大於你個人的佳穩潔可是他這樣101就沒有流量嘛"},{"start":8359.534,"end":8378.84,"text":"很慘對,他本來就沒有流量啊對,但你要,我的意思是說你要先想到說先有101董事長才有你賈永傑個人所以你現在要先想就是說是怎麼去Promote這個101不是Promote賈永傑這是我個人給你的一個建議啦我把我的流量share給101耶這個這次煙火的這個預算是多少你說哪一個預算"},{"start":8385.967,"end":8414.164,"text":"跨年煙火的預算跨年煙火的預算其實呢是由我們的觀光署全額的這個贊助還有加上中華電信還有我們的證交所對那所以這個沒有花到沒有記者會的預算沒有花到101的預算你說在整個預算方面嗎對煙火的預算是沒有都是觀光署是觀光署是花多少錢觀光署大部分然後中華電信還有證交所各多少啊"},{"start":8415.12,"end":8421.884,"text":"嗯,可是他們說這個數字我不能說欸對,數字不能說對這個數字為什麼不能說嗯,我們公司這邊是說數字不能說這應該可以說吧,這數字為什麼不能說那你會後再給我資料"},{"start":8430.046,"end":8447.586,"text":"好喔那其實這兩千萬齁其實我看了一下這個歷屆的這個煙火齁這兩千萬其實不是算多啦是其實算算是算是偏少的預算當然這個預算是在你來之前就已經編訂了啦是那所以也期待啦這個在有限的預算裡面齁這個創造出這一個"},{"start":8449.188,"end":8449.208,"text":"請次長"},{"start":8480.656,"end":8486.122,"text":"市長請教一下這一個禮拜五通過這個財化法你是哪時候拿到版本的?"},{"start":8487.239,"end":8510.026,"text":"什麼時候拿到版本啊對啊就是當天在議場的時候不斷的傳過來不斷的傳過來一休再休三休之後你才拿到這個版本因為我們在試算的時候第一個版本還沒試算完又第二版本又出來第二版本還沒試算完又第三版本又出來所以之前就是國民黨跟民眾黨也都沒有找你們在做溝通就對了沒有沒有就是當天晚上"},{"start":8510.646,"end":8524.517,"text":"我們在表決的時候,那你跟我們差不多同時拿到版本嗎?我們在表決的時候拿到版本,也是差不多那時候拿到版本,然後才開始算。那時候我們就問國民黨說,到底這個隨時分配從中央拿到多少錢,他們也算不出來,他說要去問財政部,要去問主計處。"},{"start":8526.198,"end":8554.699,"text":"但是問題就是這樣版本一直出來所以我們就是一直跟不上一直跟不上到最後有把它算出來最後一個版本就是3700多億嘛3753億那我請教一下就是說如果按照這個通過的版本這個隨時分配拿走這個3753億之後呢然後我們有一些這個福利政策我剛才舉的這些例子包含租0到2歲育兒津貼等等這些補助"},{"start":8555.64,"end":8570.298,"text":"本來的版本譬如說租屋補貼的話每戶每月是2000到14400然後如果國民黨財務法通過之後會少了600到4320那大概都是少三分之一左右嗎?你們按照這個比例來說來試算了嗎?"},{"start":8572.581,"end":8587.956,"text":"我們是按照它的那個分配比例第一個是按照先算垂直的垂直看市值多少然後再按照它的那個水平分配的那幾票你看一下我這邊想的這個租屋補貼或是0到2歲育兒津貼這個都會少的部分的話"},{"start":8589.008,"end":8594.652,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表演規劃"},{"start":8608.683,"end":8636.413,"text":"不一定會這樣做但是我們要這一部分因為是主席總書的職權那我們會跟他密切來交換意見那我再問一下就是說一些這個交通建設是這個像這一個像我們新北市就包含這個環狀線那汐止東湖線山陰線那包含我自己山盧區的這個供水這個管網的改善工程等等之類的那原本我們都是中央就補助地方是那如果說這個採訪通過之後勒"},{"start":8638.294,"end":8657.34,"text":"這些補助的經費是還要再給地方嗎?還是從他們這個統籌分配款拿到之後自己再去做處理?這一部分我們在七級跟這個主席總書在做盤點那至於說將來未來要怎麼因應那我想我們這一部分會提出一個對策出來"},{"start":8658.14,"end":8660.822,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台"},{"start":8678.078,"end":8696.743,"text":"你來看一下比如說像這一個我來分前瞻預算跟這一個計畫型補助的預算然後在左邊這個是前瞻預算前瞻預算本來也是到明年就結束了接下來就是要編到這一個各相關部會的預算裡面譬如說我講這一個捷運的部分"},{"start":8697.503,"end":8701.086,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司"},{"start":8716.977,"end":8736.542,"text":"所以我們會跟他做充分的溝通但是因為現在因為你們錢少了啊一定錢少了對啊而且現在就是一般的補助款他有第30條裡面有規定說不能少於前一年度的這個額度嘛所以我們現在可以動的可能就是大概就是計畫性補助那計畫性補助呢要怎麼檢法"},{"start":8738.382,"end":8757.611,"text":"計劃性補助我再跟你講到說右手邊那個是114年的這個計劃性補助然後像這一個我自己在新北市的部分的話你看有交通建設、治水的經費、交易的經費還有社福的經費等等那所以說過去比如說在114年的話"},{"start":8759.592,"end":8782.864,"text":"那個中央有補助那個新北市的話有351億計畫型的補助然後未來這些計畫型的補助的話那是不是也應該都會受到影響一定會受到影響因為我們中央的這個垂直的那部分就少了3700多億然後呢這個出去以後呢那中央的財源從哪邊來"},{"start":8784.352,"end":8801.743,"text":"所以沒有那些錢啊所以我的意思是說當地方政府多拿到這些統籌分配款之後本來的這個計畫性補助是不是會受到影響然後未來的計畫性補助比如說就是本來有這個育兒津貼然後我們對於這個學校的補助或是說這個核酸診治的經費等等"},{"start":8802.924,"end":8826.765,"text":"那是不是未來就是要由這個地方的這個統籌分配管這邊多支出一點這個就因為這一部分就是統籌稅管因為地方已經大幅度增加了嘛對所以有關的這計畫性的補助很可能會做一個調整但是怎麼調整我們還要再跟總統那邊再討論主席我再最後一分鐘是這個我有收到這一個這個財政部給我的這一個"},{"start":8827.926,"end":8853.623,"text":"今年度一到十月非實名制網路社群平台投放廣告的情況那因為之前這個包含這個兆豐銀行他們已經講了就是說他們就是不投放廣告在這一個這個非實名制的這個網路平台但是我有看到你們要做個檢討從明年度開始這個在這個財政部所屬機關呢這個今年度到十月大概有一千多萬投放到這一個非實名制的這個網路廣告"},{"start":8854.864,"end":8881.127,"text":"然後呢在這一個你們的所屬機構包含這個泛公股銀行有接有將近8400多億投放到這個非這個實名制的這些網路頭那從明年度開始那我看尤其這個臺灣煙酒公司有3700多萬從明年度開始這個財政部能不能就是約束一下包含你們自己所屬的機關還有這一些所屬的機構還有泛公股銀行"},{"start":8882.107,"end":8910.867,"text":"這個不要再花經費投放在這一個沒有實名制的這個網路平台上面所以我們來努力啦我們來努力現在最主要就是說我們現在公股的行庫或者是我們行政機關我們這一部分可以盡量來努力但是現在問題就是民營的事業它沒有辦法跟進沒有辦法跟進所以變成就是說公股的就是一定要投在這個實名制的但是民營的它投在這個非實名制的那非實名制的這你們要來要求啊這打炸齁"},{"start":8911.907,"end":8938.734,"text":"這個打詐就是政府要是全體一致要來做處理的所以我們我跟委員報告就是最重要就是說因為剛才我們這些說要投放到這個實名制那邊是自發性的所以我們要的是一個強制性的所以我說未來這個新打詐釋法式的落實是很重要的一步對啊你們現在就是要落實啊就要求你們落實啊就是你們那個公股銀行就是帶頭開始要做啊你們所屬機構要帶頭開始來做啊已經"},{"start":8940.814,"end":8941.654,"text":"謝謝李君臣委員接著請吳立法委員發言"},{"start":8976.33,"end":8984.253,"text":"謝謝主席有請財政部卵次長以及臺北金融大樓賈董事長賈董事長委員好次長好今天委員會排了就是我們一個臺北金融大樓的一個煙火的專報所以我想先請教一下賈董就是您有沒有原住民朋友"},{"start":9006.226,"end":9008.547,"text":"那我想請教一下,就是今年的煙火"},{"start":9031.056,"end":9048.849,"text":"其實都已經籌備很久大概雛形啊很早就已經都訂好了那您也提到說一反過去充滿古典音樂那今年比較大量使用了臺灣的流行音樂那不曉得說未來"},{"start":9049.81,"end":9069.863,"text":"有沒有機會用一些原住民的鼓調我覺得我跟你的想法真的是太一致了應該是說我其實這一次比較因為其實您知道嗎在音樂的規劃上面必須要一個比較長的時間因為有很多版權的問題還有公播的問題我們都要去處理"},{"start":9070.683,"end":9099.468,"text":"那其實原住民這一塊我真的有想到我必須跟您說是我自己有一個協會是專門在幫助臺東的偏鄉的一些心靈教育的部分那因為其實您知道原住民的孩子他們的歌聲是最pure、最好聽、響亮的歌聲那有一次呢他們就寄了合唱團表演那些孩子跟我還蠻好的他們就寄了這個他們去合唱團表演的這個影片給我"},{"start":9100.188,"end":9115.822,"text":"其實我一聽完他們的歌聲我真的就感動到快要哭了太好聽了可是因為在這個相關的歌曲的版權上面需要一些時間所以那個時候可能比較來不及但我明年會加入謝謝因為我會問這個問題是認為您應該能夠去接納這樣的觀點也就是說"},{"start":9122.828,"end":9125.91,"text":"臺北101在12月這個歲末年終的時候呢我們在每個禮拜六禮拜天"},{"start":9148.263,"end":9149.203,"text":"接下來我請教一下我們次長"},{"start":9177.47,"end":9183.033,"text":"其實我非常關心這次財化法之後我非常關心這次財化法之後原鄉所受到的衝擊所以我有一些問題想要請教您"},{"start":9192.358,"end":9220.574,"text":"因為我們都很清楚知道中央的錢是用來調節地方的一個財政不均的狀況那這幾年我在立法院我也感受到了可是呢我先講一件事我一直很關心我們六都之後有一些原鄉變原區它其實財政稅客的部分奏降為零"},{"start":9221.854,"end":9242.12,"text":"那這個部分我提出版本大家也都說很合理很應該可是我在上個禮拜五最後的時刻我看到竟然最後用一個更三的方式的最後的版本寫說不予採納那我就非常的驚訝"},{"start":9243.666,"end":9255.161,"text":"也就是說大家願意讓這種不合理的狀況繼續的放任它繼續存在我覺得非常的漠視我們原住民的權益"},{"start":9256.243,"end":9275.849,"text":"可是我要說的是現在更慘因為以前他們變成必須要仰賴大量的中央補助因為有時候我們的市政府可能他沒有辦法去補足這個部分就要必須仰賴大量的中央我們看一下這個原鄉的財務結構"},{"start":9278.075,"end":9301.368,"text":"如果是以鄉來看他有百分之五、六十以上他都必須要仰賴中央的補助可是為什麼我很關心六都合併之後的園區因為他更慘他幾乎百分之九十要仰賴中央的補助要不然他的財政非常的困難可是這下子"},{"start":9302.248,"end":9314.669,"text":"我們的中央錢也變少了能夠挹注給他調節的部分也沒有那麼自由了我請問一下次長你怎麼看這個問題"},{"start":9317.056,"end":9334.688,"text":"我知道委員長期關心這個原住民的這個原鄉的相關的財政的問題那麼在歷次的包括公聽會或者是質詢那麼委員也多次表達這樣的意見那這些意見沒有最後沒有被納進去那麼我們覺得非常遺憾非常遺憾"},{"start":9336.169,"end":9365.037,"text":"那未來將來就是就像剛才委員提到的中央因為這次的修法他在垂直這部分要多釋出3753億然後呢一般補助款又不能減少在這種情況之下中央補助地方的能力的確會受到減弱那次長我就是關心這個問題你講到重點公道之後什麼時候要施行"},{"start":9366.613,"end":9373.966,"text":"如果真的公告的話目前是這樣目前的最後一條是說公佈日施行公佈日施行對公佈日施行3700億"},{"start":9377.702,"end":9397.225,"text":"各部會要怎麼分?怎麼抽?所以這一部分還要再討論因為他最後他沒有一個緩衝期沒有一個緩衝期他就是在公佈這個事情本來某一個黨他是有像民眾黨他是有一個緩衝一年的時間我其實我很關心的就是我不管"},{"start":9398.166,"end":9421.937,"text":"各縣市怎麼分配因為我們原住民族人我們其實是分布在全國的各縣市我們的計畫都是跨年度、跨縣市的居多而且非常的仰賴中央的補助現在公道施行3700億我們在這邊談的預算可能是一個玩笑"},{"start":9423.178,"end":9447.495,"text":"到底要怎麼重新分配怎麼重新抽但是以原命會來講我們族人非常非常仰賴的像是這些原住民族博物館他會被受到影響?會嗎?如果是計畫我想那應該是計畫性補助那基本補助的話就是這一部分他是跨年度"},{"start":9448.933,"end":9451.455,"text":"我直接給您看一個表啦您看一下那個畫面齁你看我們類似這樣的一個跨年度"},{"start":9467.668,"end":9480.885,"text":"這種跨縣市這種整體性的補助像是互助教保中心、沉浸式足語教保員、足語教學支援人員、足語老師語推人員、本土語文指導員、足語保姆、足語直播、足語學習、南島論壇"},{"start":9483.829,"end":9506.803,"text":"還有這一些原住民文化知識體系甚至是我們的原語會、原民台等等這一些我們很多的計畫即將要上路的社會安全網我們的博物館我們最需要的聚會所、特色道路移居計畫這些建設類等等等還有這些文化藝術家他們的相關計畫、產學計畫哇"},{"start":9512.862,"end":9527.41,"text":"市長我只是要跟您講3700億要重新分配重新抽我們原鄉怎麼辦我們已經是最弱是最慘的一群受到我們需要仰賴中央補助怎麼辦"},{"start":9528.496,"end":9544.187,"text":"我就是先提出這樣的那個,我不希望給我們二度、三度、四度的傷害是,謝謝委員的這個垂詢我們現在中央面臨最大的問題就是那多出來、多釋出的財源要從哪邊去補啦"},{"start":9546.95,"end":9558.705,"text":"這是我們現在面臨最大的問題要怎麼去處理怎麼去補救那我在這邊就是提出這樣的提醒因為我覺得很多人不知道正在失去的是什麼被影響的是什麼"},{"start":9560.26,"end":9584.353,"text":"每個人都在看我的人均變多每個縣市錢變多但是他不曉得相對的他失去的是什麼所以這個部分事權的部分完全沒有談沒有隨之調整這是我們感到很憂心的地方那國家到底會受到什麼衝擊影響那我現在就是很關心說至少給我們一份報告"},{"start":9586.052,"end":9597.898,"text":"可以嗎?我們現在先盤點出來像我們的農路我們需要最希望的水保署我們的農水署、水利署"},{"start":9599.329,"end":9623.918,"text":"我們很多很多原鄉仰賴的我現在很緊張所以我希望至少應該給我們一份報告讓我們可以跟族人來說可以嗎這一部分我是不是讓我容許我帶回去我跟族總那邊來回答你們要給啊那就是跟族總一起給好不好我們至少需要而且呢我覺得地方政府是人質啊"},{"start":9625.373,"end":9649.084,"text":"我至少安心錢在中央啊公開透明有預算法有財政紀律法有受監督我至少安心對我來講但是地方人質之後地方政府地方議會經常是我們詬病啊就是威權的遺毒黑金盤踞的地方財政不透明甚至很多地方議會連轉播意思都沒有"},{"start":9650.437,"end":9671.49,"text":"我緊張啊你看我園區都不給我了我仰賴中央現在中央也沒有了所有的園鄉未來都會跟六都的園區一樣所有的園鄉都會如此所以這個部分我希望給我一個報告好嗎"},{"start":9673.311,"end":9680.857,"text":"這部分我要跟總書那邊來做溝通好,謝謝市長,謝謝吳立華那接著我們請鄭振全委員花言謝謝主席,我想請一下財政部阮政次還有魯莉儀董事長,謝謝姜昂傑董事長"},{"start":9701.787,"end":9716.152,"text":"委員好市長好因為今天是針對101的2024年的營運績效跟2025年的一個那個經營計畫還有那個跨年煙火的部分所以我想先問一下101董事長"},{"start":9717.132,"end":9745.737,"text":"謝謝委員好董事長那個我知道你本身的聲量是比101的官網來的好很多啦當然因為有委員也特別提到了是說因為這一次那個有關於101的跨年煙火是在你個人粉專上面先公佈這件事情是然後我聽了你解釋我發現你還是覺得有點委屈因為你覺得你的流量可以去cover 101的部分是不是這樣的一個情況你再多做說明是而且我不開記者會可以省了一筆錢"},{"start":9747.862,"end":9770.798,"text":"理解喔,因為我們知道說你是從那個有演藝圈明星的光環然後從企業界進到那個某個部分是廣義的公部門當中來啦那公部門當中有一個很重要的部分就是它的程序跟嚴謹度會更高程序嚴謹度會更高,所以事實上說因為針對這個記者會這部分你覺得幫那個101省下一筆記者會的錢對不對"},{"start":9772.239,"end":9790.913,"text":"可是事實上大家就會覺得說那你私用跟公用的部分好像沒有拿捏得很好我剛剛聽到你在回答拉斯巴委員的時候你提到說你是私企公用表示說你是把你的資源用來做在101當中的時候你覺得這好像是一個對101的一個正面的回饋"},{"start":9791.573,"end":9816.979,"text":"可是我們看起來的時候感覺好像不一定是這麼一回事所以說我們覺得說在整個公佈門中程序的部分還是要拿捏得很好比方說你把101畢竟是一個有國際光環的一個建築物那你把它用在你的個人粉專當中去把它給弄出來的時候你覺得是你的流量帶給了101可是我們在看的時候搞不好是你占了101的便宜因為101的光環在國際上搞不好更大"},{"start":9817.739,"end":9835.841,"text":"可是101在網路上面真的沒有流量所以我是把我的流量導給了101所以我覺得你現在要做的事情就是你要想辦法讓101的流量高起來你有你的明星關懷沒有問題我也很認同可是我覺得101畢竟是一個公單位的一個部分"},{"start":9837.543,"end":9856.768,"text":"如果正常在座,我就不要說你們要同時去座,或者是讓101先你再去做分享。我有同時,應該是說因為我的流量比較大,所以大家先看到我的,但是在這個串聯的後台是已經串起來的。你懂我的意思嗎?就是我把我的流量跟101我們是同步的。"},{"start":9857.148,"end":9885.276,"text":"是101是串在我們的整個的協辦跟協作裡面的理解好那這個部分因為這個部分是一個點因為我有聽說有些媒體他好像從我們101的那個媒體群退群因為覺得好像說不太需要在這個101的媒體群裡面只要關注你的那個粉專就可以有這樣的狀況嗎我不清楚你後續再了解一下這個本席一個很清楚的一個說明好不好去了解一下然後另外一個部分就是說101這個部分它畢竟是一個"},{"start":9887.908,"end":9904.908,"text":"經營的事業單位我知道你現在很努力想要做公益我們也知道之前在疫情的時候你也做了一些公益活動我們也都看在眼裡某個部分也是肯定的我想問一下101現在在做公益的時候捐款如果超過100萬需不需要董事會通過"},{"start":9905.469,"end":9932.055,"text":"需要超過101萬要需要101萬就需要董事會通過對不對是你剛剛提到說那個在捐棒球這部分你找了10家廠商一家60萬再加上101的200萬是都有董事會通過全部通過好那我要問一個狀態就是2025年的登高賽是因為登高賽也是101另外一個很吸引人的地方對目前登高賽的情況如何那他要怎麼去做公益"},{"start":9932.455,"end":9959.414,"text":"好,101的登高賽呢這邊我可以跟大家宣傳一下即將會辦在2025年的5月3號那在這個部分呢我們是突破以往就是可能就是一個登高的賽事我們必須結合了公益我認為呢我們在這個臺北101那我自己覺得說我在我自己是很能夠做公益嘛這是我的強項所以呢我就會帶領著101在登高賽事的部分結合慈善公益"},{"start":9959.994,"end":9978.873,"text":"然後一起讓國人能夠一起參與OK那這個部分我想說我最後再多一個問題給你你之後因為之前的永捷同心你剛才也覺得說你有T恤這事情是點燈活動聽說這個公益的部分是他們有經過董事會同意是直接讓廠商捐款給第三方"},{"start":9979.912,"end":10001.787,"text":"那是不是有這樣的情況那之後是不是在101點燈的時候如果說是我要求婚我就可以在101點燈可以嗎可以啊可以嗎可以啊可以啊我們這次已經一個活動等一下等一下也算是公益的部分12月24號跟25號我們已經開放了所有的國人都可以點燈OK開始"},{"start":10002.988,"end":10028.062,"text":"12月25日開始開放,以後都可以嗎?兩天兩天那針對這個永樂同心這個沒有進行董事會就是請廠商捐款第三棒之後你之後再給本席一個這個絕對有董事會同意啦不然怎麼可能捐款整個捐款的形成跟流這個形式全部都是董事會同意的偏鄉的棒球的單位全部都同意的"},{"start":10029.443,"end":10043.576,"text":"針對媒體退群的部分你之後再給本席一個具體的說明最後再給本席30秒我想問一下次長因為今天我看到本來這個專題報告是財政部部長來結果他後來請假了請假在行政院那邊開記者會"},{"start":10045.157,"end":10073.072,"text":"那對於就是在野黨努力推出來的一個才化法指指點點說什麼那個人口分析不夠細緻啦沒有考慮到老人年輕人的問題然後什麼對於什麼土地納入分配的時候不夠細緻沒有考慮到區劃分感覺財政部很厲害應該有一個很具體的版本你可不可以給我一個你們財政部自己要有的一個才化法本來要有才化法的版本可不可以本席一個很清楚的一個內容"},{"start":10074.292,"end":10089.119,"text":"對不起,我們目前是沒有這樣的一個版本所以還是沒有版本嗎?然後本來應該財政部作為,不作為然後在野黨努力去推出來之後,開始說三道四,指指點點,你覺得這樣適合嗎?然後該進來做專報備詢的情況,不進來做專報備詢在行政院裡面開記者會,對在野黨指指點點,你覺得這是應該要有的態度嗎?"},{"start":10098.584,"end":10112.789,"text":"我覺得是這樣這個財化法其實是真的是我們的財政的根本大法也就是要兼顧到中央的施政需求也要考慮到地方的財政自主所以我們因為你們竟然剛剛可以對於"},{"start":10115.31,"end":10138.457,"text":"在野黨的推出來的已經合法修過的一個版本指指點點覺得人口分佈不對不夠細緻土地的一個規劃分別不夠細緻你把你們人口細緻的版本給本席一個很清楚的書面說明可不可以我們這樣子好不好我們大概可不可以嘛如果沒有不能給本席的書面說明你們開記者會在那邊指指點點那是什麼意思該進來備詢不進來備詢該進來專報不進來專報"},{"start":10143.779,"end":10162.827,"text":"國會報告以目前最後的版本來看的話我們暫時不去管這個除了這個垂直分配之外那麼水能分配的確在分配上我是覺得可能還要更進一步來深思讓分配更加的公平"},{"start":10163.487,"end":10178.541,"text":"所以你覺得現在財政部如果說也不適合講這部分那財政部長在記者會當中講說人口分布這部分的分析不夠細緻土地的這相關的一塊不夠細緻這什麼意思你如果都沒有辦法給我一個書面資料的時候那這樣的話"},{"start":10180.342,"end":10201.394,"text":"不是就是擺明躲避今天的專報跟備詢讓你出來代打這樣我們把我們這個在我們這個過去我們邀請地方政府這個會商的相會記錄我們會送給這個委員做參考當時我們其實是努力在希望能夠大家能夠達成共識然後在這修法要更加順利當時是這樣子"},{"start":10203.795,"end":10204.255,"text":"接著請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":10249.648,"end":10249.888,"text":"主席"},{"start":10259.761,"end":10271.641,"text":"前陣子有公布今年的稅收超收到10月底超收5100億下面最新的數據今年會超收多少錢"},{"start":10272.321,"end":10287.385,"text":"那一個時增數超過預算數我們分兩塊一塊是全國部分一個就是中央政府部分那剛才委員講的應該是全國那部分的預估數啦到現在還不確定因為還沒有結束嘛那但是你講到11月底是"},{"start":10290.686,"end":10306.609,"text":"超收五千億現在應該還在增加當中對不對還在這是預估數我們已經把那個因為到了年底特別是正乙稅那些全部再加進去我現在最重要是要問你一個有沒有比較明確的新的數據五千億還在往上走嗎"},{"start":10307.17,"end":10308.011,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓監督管理委員"},{"start":10329.366,"end":10329.586,"text":"市長市長"},{"start":10356.51,"end":10361.612,"text":"政府現在是有錢的而且超收的金額是很多的遠超過現在被抹黑被扭曲的財化法修正以後增加了3700億你們現在最保守的5000億去算啊"},{"start":10382.821,"end":10402.45,"text":"聽我講聽我講明年的收入超收的錢至少多了1400億出來這代表什麼不是像聽我講不是像卓院長講的什麼國庫變空虛國庫在明年可以用的錢更多啊沒有沒有沒有如果有的話我們不會有什麼意見啦我就剛才跟委員報告嘛"},{"start":10402.89,"end":10428.988,"text":"那就是稅收只是總預算的那稅入的一部分他加進去以後齁加進去以後我們的總預算齁其實還是有一個短差還是有一個短差不要把這五千億要去浪費掉錢就會剩下來沒辦法直接這樣用然後更重要的不是只有錢增加了稅增加了你以前一些浪費的腐爛的你是光電的弊案超市的弊案光是那個一千億要拿去補貸"},{"start":10429.908,"end":10446.285,"text":"臺電的拿回來人民就有錢了所以不要再抹黑財化法什麼下放錢給地方更重要的這是修正的重點是什麼?你們在財政部這邊很多資深的財政部的官員在這邊啊從民進黨執政陳水扁時代當總統就有財政收支法的版本啊"},{"start":10447.796,"end":10466.388,"text":"林全當行政院長,陳永康上台他要我去辦公室,我們談了很久蔡英文本來也應該有裁判好的版本啊你們的部長在這邊接受我質詢的時候也說問題都慢慢解決了,要有版本啊他在拜訪我們黨團,我跟他講他是壞版本啊結果到現在為止"},{"start":10468.061,"end":10479.855,"text":"行政院版財政部的版本在哪裡你們這個嚴重失職所以你們不要再你們自己不上車變成幾萬人是嚴重失職的所以不要再抹黑裁判法第二個我問你一個最簡單的事情"},{"start":10482.25,"end":10508.527,"text":"為什麼到現在沒有提出來?最重要的人是賴清德總統我給大家看一下賴清德在當臺南市長2012年他講說啊財化法是一個不公不義的惡法他說當總統的當總統的如果沒有看到地方的問題財政不足財化法跟公債法怎麼可以不夠呢?如果不處理"},{"start":10509.932,"end":10531.243,"text":"就是中央想集權又集錢對他的統治比較方便一個賴清德我們要相信哪一個賴清德第二個我要相信哪一個財政部之前跟我講說要提版本的我叫你回去趕快去看以前陳水扁提過版本看年前提過版本你們答應我要看要提到現在沒有你們是有嚴重失職然後你到現在還"},{"start":10532.424,"end":10533.745,"text":"二十五年來二十五年來經過多少討論我剛已經跟你講了市長"},{"start":10553.324,"end":10576.682,"text":"連陳水扁都提了版本林全都提了版本有沒有討論關於是新會期這個立法委員上個會期討論多久辦了公聽會這個會期也辦了公聽會沒討論嗎財政部的版本在哪裡我另外跟你談一個很重要的事情現在全民最關心的臺灣是個寶島可是有天災地變地動我們的行政運動快點說啊以後啊"},{"start":10580.843,"end":10604.476,"text":"臺豐地震來了地方要自己去面對我問你一個最重要的你財政部到底沒有足夠的財源給我們政府給人民我們以後天災真的就沒地震來了財政部的財源不足夠去救災嗎我給他看一下來請大家注意看在921發生大地震的時候後來政府編了一千億"},{"start":10606.917,"end":10619.846,"text":"921震災的災禍重建基金特別預算有錢嗎?那時候的李登輝政府為什麼錢可以編?第二個今年用今年當例子今年我們很不幸發生了花蓮的大跌宕"},{"start":10622.458,"end":10630.32,"text":"政府機關、中央機關包括交通部、衛福部、內政部各個機關馬上找出了88.5億、還有中央特種基金84.65億"},{"start":10643.323,"end":10658.837,"text":"前專跟以後的特別預算有1.01億包括中央統籌分配稅款特別的中央統籌分配稅款他拿了50.1億出來中央準備金、中央的二倍金、震災基金加起來你說的285億為什麼今年發生花蓮大地震"},{"start":10664.315,"end":10692.034,"text":"有285億在那為什麼行政院長可以跟我們講一要地方自己要去面對問題現在修法以後就不一樣了修法以後你你垂直釋出3753億中央對地方的資源的能量來來來市長你看你看我給你的資料來來來等一下等一下等一下市長講這個非常嚴重啊看一下促進你的意思來來回到上一章促進你看一下上一章你的意思是"},{"start":10693.724,"end":10702.156,"text":"經過這次財政收支方法修正以後中央機關的公務預算不要再編錢第二個破種基金不要再編錢"},{"start":10704.266,"end":10725.619,"text":"中央政府的第二預備金也不要編錢?不管地方的災變了嗎?這個,對不起,我沒有講這樣的話你剛剛的意思是這一期沒有了嗎?這一份是主計總署的提權,我沒辦法替他回答第一個,今年有的明年不能少,對不對?第二個,這是法令的預算欸"},{"start":10728.149,"end":10754.115,"text":"當行政院長講這個話就變成第一個不只是失言被罵是冷血的院長而且是違背法令的院長所以我明確的要求、正宗要求行政院長卓永泰為你的失言、人民的生命安全、重大的災害你在上面做政治操作你把話說回去、吞回去趕快跟人民道歉市長你剛剛也失言了你剛剛的意思經過裁判法真的這些預算"},{"start":10754.855,"end":10776.126,"text":"明年不編嗎?我沒有這樣說是不是要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?市長你看一下這些項目要不要編?"},{"start":10778.247,"end":10781.768,"text":"編預算不是我們財政部的全財務財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部"},{"start":10805.074,"end":10833.109,"text":"第一個在今年我們現在立法院正在審的總預算書裡面這些項目都在不只今年的這些項目在明年也在啊所以怎麼會沒有救災的錢怎麼會有卓榮泰講的颱風地震來自己要面對第一個這個是法令上這是違法如果這樣做是違法的第二個這樣講把政治操作在人民的這個痛苦之上這是冷血是違法所以於外面要求他道歉要請任委員長道歉話吞回去"},{"start":10834.281,"end":10857.662,"text":"那個次長你回去看一下剛剛我們的對談你是不是也是認為說沒有錢可以編了你沒有 如果有這樣講的話你要不要給他更正好不好這個我剛才已經講過了那個次長好啦 之前我做個簡單的這個結論第一個 中央財政收支劃分法已經25年沒有修了這個是不分黨派的你民進黨沒有萬年執政的啦"},{"start":10860.799,"end":10881.028,"text":"民進黨如果變在野黨的時候你就會發現說這是這個修法讓地方可以自治中外錢下放可以照顧地方的這個所有的這個縣民縣市民眾他到時候會鼓掌的看國家要制度化要長遠啊因為民進黨現在執政你以前賴清德你自己當台南市長你當行政院長都是要修當了總統就換那個腦袋嗎特別嚴重的是這天為什麼講這麼激動不要再抹黑不要再扭曲這個才華法好不好這個是長久以來"},{"start":10891.513,"end":10918.265,"text":"要落實地方自治要關心地方的因為臺灣就是一個中央集權又集錢的地方嘛全世界很少國家這樣子所以25年來多少人要求要修不是就政黨、學者專家我們辦了兩次聽證會你也在多少學者專家說趕快修我跑那麼久的政治新聞寫了三本書我說這次的財政收支方法能夠修是歷史上難得的一個機會百年難遇因為三黨不過半"},{"start":10919.378,"end":10919.739,"text":"接著我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":10948.177,"end":10948.337,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":10962.75,"end":10991.024,"text":"據媒體報導12月2號在民營金控的部分持續有啟動要併購的這個方向公營也提出兆豐金控那麼也有意要兆豐投信第一金投信以及合庫投信三合一的一個整併所以本期要請教財政部你是大股東那你是不是樂觀其成請說明基本上"},{"start":10991.564,"end":10999.751,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會議"},{"start":11007.698,"end":11028.349,"text":"你是大股東,你剛剛說了,如果有中效,那麼子公司都認為OK,但是你要注意一下就是說你是大股東,所以在公共病的方面牽扯的會非常的多,牽扯到什麼問題呢?包括組織文化,包括了經營策略跟它的強項。"},{"start":11029.87,"end":11055.789,"text":"這一個強項很重要因為我們目前就是如此也必須金融啊、景型營業啊跟世界接軌在這樣的情況之下你要考慮到股東、員工、客戶的一個權益跟我們國家整體的利益那就是剛剛您說的有沒有作用是,謝謝委員提醒對,我們的原則就是這樣跟委員完全不一樣也包括了股東、員工、客戶"},{"start":11057.13,"end":11078.062,"text":"的權利跟國家整體的利益這些都在你思考的範圍之內嘛對所以最重要的一向如此也要必須考量到有沒有奏效嘛對不對這非常重要所以我也謹慎的提醒我們財政部因為大家都非常關心這個案子未來謹慎處理未來走向到底怎麼樣大家就拭目以待"},{"start":11082.885,"end":11108.384,"text":"接下來本期請教金管會我們看到現在詐騙的一大堆一大堆包括財政部在用我們也跟他討論了很多那西班牙籍這個人奧納德他在義大利他詐騙了3000萬大概台幣歐元大概我們的10.5億左右那在這樣的情況之下他逃到臺灣"},{"start":11109.685,"end":11124.133,"text":"逃到臺灣之後他成功的在臺灣的銀行來開戶啊哇那大家質疑臺灣銀行的業者是不是真正的有落實KYC啊有沒有啊有沒有真正的去落實認識你的客戶啊"},{"start":11125.814,"end":11144.9,"text":"所以在這個事件之後呢那我沒有看到這個詐騙犯他在8家的銀行開設了帳戶欸8家欸我們讓全世界笑話我們欸同時他也在這個部分銀行還擔任他公司他甚至自己還擔任負責人欸"},{"start":11146.88,"end":11156.469,"text":"自己還擔任負責人親自來開設這個帳號在這樣的情況之下本席要請教國際的詐騙犯他在我們整個臺灣能夠這樣子的開戶那他還能夠在臺灣穩居住五年"},{"start":11166.838,"end":11167.138,"text":"請做說明"},{"start":11182.324,"end":11206.407,"text":"是,我分兩個部分,第一個是具體個案的部分,第二個是委員剛剛提到的後續防治的一些措施。那第一個具體個案的部分就是,其實當時他是法人戶、公司戶,他是用變更負責人的一個方式在變動他。所以是說呢,在這個地方一開始那個開戶其實並不是那個詐騙犯,而是那家公司他變更負責人。"},{"start":11208.368,"end":11228.275,"text":"主委在說明的時候已經產生這樣的現象這一個過程他已經可以跑你的漏洞可以跑你有法的漏洞去轉變成為國際的笑話你現在要回答的是我們到底又怎麼回事我們要怎麼圍堵你還給我解釋這個"},{"start":11229.155,"end":11231.456,"text":"怎麼積極控制請教KYC如果沒有控制認識你的客戶"},{"start":11250.626,"end":11251.447,"text":"你把你因為已經被騙了"},{"start":11278.466,"end":11282.911,"text":"臺灣是詐騙犯罪者的天堂這是絕對不容許的我要在這邊嚴肅的告訴你你把你目前的樣態我們已經被如此的糟蹋我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":11300.589,"end":11313.998,"text":"我們的營運方案到底是什麼順便資料給本席我再一次強調臺灣是一個美麗的寶島不能成為詐騙犯逃逸的而且施詐我們臺灣繼續變我們臺灣的一個讓他成為他詐騙的天堂你認懂吧"},{"start":11319.341,"end":11321.943,"text":"11月5日日本東京證交交易所把股票交易時間延長30分鐘,總計5.5小時,一直到下午3點半結束。"},{"start":11338.554,"end":11357.663,"text":"從1954年時隔70年以來他再一次70年後他延長了交易時間那麼這個也引起國際金融的市場的一個矚目那當時本席在大概一個多月前加上兩個月在這邊也問了也就是說到底我們台股會不會跟進因為這個要嚴格的去討論"},{"start":11361.324,"end":11361.464,"text":"請做說明"},{"start":11375.877,"end":11376.958,"text":"兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投資之台北金融大樓股份"},{"start":11400.999,"end":11402.24,"text":"目前為止,交易所給我的答案是不跟進的。"},{"start":11424.977,"end":11449.849,"text":"我們還會再跟交易所再溝通所以第一個我們這個議題就是說你們主委已經跳票了已經失言了失信了他一個月後沒有答案這第一個是你挑戰你主委第二個第二個我們也希望你們謹慎謹慎去討論資到底要怎麼做對台灣會更好好我們再會跟主帝還在券商工會我們再跟券商工會溝通謝謝"},{"start":11452.01,"end":11475.881,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝副主委趕快把這個研擬的報告給那個瓊研委員接著我們請羅明財委員發言主席各位,初列席官員大家好,主席各位請財政部卵次長還有金融監督管理委員會陳副主委"},{"start":11482.836,"end":11501.762,"text":"本席長期為了地方建設的發展在財委會這個地方一直大力的來爭取財政收支換分法希望可以落實照顧地方讓地方好好發展"},{"start":11504.479,"end":11532.953,"text":"這幾天全身腰酸背痛但是再怎麼樣的辛苦我覺得都值得因為本席算一算也為了新北市爭取到大概應該有超過300億每年增加的這個稅款統籌稅款的這個幫助對我們地方來講我覺得真的是好不容易25年終於往前跨了一步"},{"start":11533.573,"end":11548.612,"text":"不過在這裡我要謝謝財政部因為你們的小氣因為你們的迴避因為你們的不作為逼得沒辦法立法院只好自己來推動"},{"start":11549.933,"end":11577.289,"text":"結束目前為止財政部還是沒有版本啊你們現在有沒有版本目前是沒有但是我跟委員報告其實我們覺得說財化法經過那麼多年沒修不是不能修我們是希望就是說大家能夠盡量多一點多一點討論對啊這個話我已經聽了快10年了對所以我跟委員上個會期我當召委的時候我還在這邊苦口婆心我就大家講事情嘛"},{"start":11578.089,"end":11604.565,"text":"好好來談好好來做可是財政部不曉得為什麼全部都失能又失智部長也不作為通通都不做然後就一直等著仰賴上面關愛的眼神現在整個都是亂掉了亂的套中華民國的推動我們所有事情的這個進展可以全部都看一個總統的臉色嗎"},{"start":11607.332,"end":11624.301,"text":"我們國家到底是總統制還是什麼制?我們好不容易培養的文官體制大家心裡都有一支尺該怎麼樣來照顧地方推動不過這一次這樣整個可以說是荒腔走板"},{"start":11625.402,"end":11651.818,"text":"坦白講我不樂見看到立法院所有推動的事項通通都是要靠拳頭通通是要打天下打來的這個思維這個是可以討論的嘛另外一個就是執政黨民進黨也太沒自信了啦22個縣市你們做得好民進黨做得好你通通可以拿回去啊"},{"start":11652.697,"end":11680.99,"text":"也不見得這個金額下放到地方永遠都是哪個黨在做啊錢到的地方就是照顧所有的全民在小學班班有鮮奶每個教室有冷氣的時候他還有規定在催藍的或綠的小朋友嗎沒有嘛這都一體適用的啊所以大家心態應該要持平到底有沒有需要"},{"start":11682.23,"end":11692.636,"text":"坦白說這次裁判有通過全部加起來多的預算是多少加起來額外釋出的是吧對額外釋出3753億好3753億那這個數字其實也不大今年的"},{"start":11700.387,"end":11726.732,"text":"這個稅收超徵多少?所以我覺得這個很容易被誤解你都回答就好了今年大概稅收會超徵多少?大概我們現在時增數會超過預算數了如果中央數來講大概是3500到3700但是這個東西超過的這個金額就是其實不值他不能夠直接用來去年也是超徵多少?"},{"start":11728.132,"end":11748.387,"text":"去年大概應該也是兩三千億嘛其實這十年來每年的稅收幾乎都超徵有年還超徵五千億啊所以我覺得財政部的心態不要當作一個守財奴錢應該花在刀口下放給地方"},{"start":11749.777,"end":11769.802,"text":"讓地方可以更成長,我堅持目前到現在,參考通過了以後,聽到的都是一片叫好。新北有12個立委,沒有支持就把名字公布出來,看他回去地方,怎麼樣對地方的父老交代。"},{"start":11771.274,"end":11794.793,"text":"地方嗷嗷待哺啊我們多少地方的建設捷運、公路、學校、長照還有教育等等一些基層大家都需要幫忙啊都是仰賴中央可是我們在地方看中央的時候你們常常大鼻揮軍購就是4千億"},{"start":11796.175,"end":11823.658,"text":"大筆一揮不到一分鐘在這個地方就在財委會一次通過八千八百億前瞻的預算天啊你們可以這樣搞把一年大概不到十分之一多的金額下放給地方過去賴清德賴總統他所講的多少民進黨立委所支持的就是希望中央多一點經費給地方"},{"start":11825.563,"end":11846.512,"text":"不是這樣子嗎?為什麼換了一個時代換了一個時間就換了腦袋?難道不需要照顧地方嗎?所以我在這裡還是要謝謝財政部因為你們的不作為反而讓我們地方多出大概好幾十億甚至上百億"},{"start":11848.044,"end":11874.726,"text":"但是我希望還是要把錢花在刀口上我們監督的機制可以更強那另外兩位這個首長都在這邊現在因為整個思維讓立法院很多議程要排的都跳過,跳過攔過當沖降稅現在的目前情況怎麼樣"},{"start":11876.346,"end":11898,"text":"會不會過?因為剩幾天啊?不過的話你們有沒有什麼應變措施?是,先跟委員報告當沖降稅在這部分如果沒有過的話其實我們成交量流動性會下降三成所以希望他能過吧?非常非常希望,而且真的這個業界真的很緊張所以我們希望說政治的分身放一邊嘛"},{"start":11899.912,"end":11900.673,"text":"請問財政部現在進度到底怎麼樣?"},{"start":11920.327,"end":11944.161,"text":"當沖降稅當沖降稅那目前還在協商當中來得及來不及有一個問題就是希望可以來得及怎麼樣希望做才來得及所以我覺得大家因為現在即使現在問題不大聖誕節快到了現在問題不大嘛就是說是連線的問題這是一個連線就是三年了那個不討論另外我是不是請那個組長來做補充說明好不好好請宋署長"},{"start":11948.108,"end":11949.089,"text":"禮拜二不會啊明天的是"},{"start":11968.982,"end":11969.743,"text":"你們有任何問題要趕快想辦法來克服"},{"start":11992.691,"end":12007.31,"text":"因為這個知識體大對最好的方式就是看你們在我在半年前我就說一直說會來不及會來不及你們說沒關係慢慢來慢慢來慢慢來搞到最後都是在最後一秒鐘"},{"start":12009.245,"end":12032.171,"text":"這個怎麼樣來推動臺灣成亞洲區的理財中心資產管理中心外商外資看到你們所有的行政效率是如此的沒有按照進度來做變來變去可能過可能不過通通沒有答案那這樣子外商怎麼來臺灣啊大家怎麼樣有好的信心啊"},{"start":12033.496,"end":12033.676,"text":"臺灣一個非常"},{"start":12058.567,"end":12073.242,"text":"重要的包括年輕人、跨年我們都一起在這邊倒數及時過是我們共同的回憶是委員是新任的董事長嗎?是金融大樓現在經營的業績情況如何?"},{"start":12077.477,"end":12092.515,"text":"臺北金融大樓在今年我們的業績在今年是54.3億元的營收那麼年增加了7.43%到了2013年全年營收渴望突破60億"},{"start":12094.317,"end":12114.295,"text":"表現還不錯預算已經優於預期了對表現都一直還不錯但是提醒賈董事長我看你還很年輕但是沒有那麼年輕金融大樓裡面的員工大概有多少人我們員工將近有400人400人平均年紀多少"},{"start":12117.055,"end":12124.39,"text":"我告訴你,跟20年前跟10幾年前比起來平均的年紀已經開始老化了"},{"start":12126.769,"end":12147.066,"text":"你現在也許只是過客或者是你會不會幫忙想一下它的永續發展未來10年的101怎麼辦20年的101怎麼辦我知道在過去1014整個亞洲地區的最高樓現在排名多少現在排名第6第6了你看節節敗退"},{"start":12148.607,"end":12162.992,"text":"那怎麼樣維護一定的光芒讓它不斷的發光發亮這是你董事長要去面對的問題啊是過去所有董事長來的齁都是過客的心態反正來個3年5年就要換人啊"},{"start":12164.252,"end":12180.589,"text":"你的心態是怎麼樣我的心態呢就像您說的我覺得這是剛才很多委員也給我這個方向就是說他不只是臺北101他更是臺灣101所以其實101是非常重要的那在未來呢我覺得在101"},{"start":12182.571,"end":12185.552,"text":"希望你可以運用你的亮麗的外表還有你的健康的形象"},{"start":12205.377,"end":12220.939,"text":"讓101可以成功的走到地方走出去現在電商發展的也很好可是101的部分好像遲遲沒有什麼比較多的規劃比如說立法院立法院現在大門中山路這個地方大門旁邊"},{"start":12222.06,"end":12222.08,"text":"是"},{"start":12252.643,"end":12271.938,"text":"謝謝羅賓才委員,接著我們請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員、葉延芝、葉延芝、葉延芝委員,不在沒有,你沒有登記啊你沒有登記啊你沒有登記啊"},{"start":12273.84,"end":12291.199,"text":"市長,你沒有登記?他們沒有告訴我,沒有人告訴我,所以說沒有人登記啊。沒有啊,沒有啊,沒有啊。是黨團那個就坐在那裡而已啊,他也沒做什麼啊。"},{"start":12308.837,"end":12309.137,"text":"副主委"},{"start":12334.02,"end":12342.807,"text":"副主委明年專案經檢這個方向很對很好那這個三大方向就是要針對不動產專案經檢要針對"},{"start":12349.059,"end":12374.23,"text":"防詐專案經檢要針對虛擬資產專案經檢這方向都很對但是我不懂的是為什麼在防詐專案經檢讓你們只納入銀行、新融合作社、電資機構為什麼不把券商納入那券商納入這個重要性是什麼就是說當"},{"start":12376.018,"end":12402.599,"text":"有我們老年民眾不幸往生之後那在統計遺產的時候券商也是一個很重要他必須申報而好巧不巧上個月才剛有一件也就是券商裡面的遺產申報的承辦人不小心洩漏了資訊出來"},{"start":12404.686,"end":12423.906,"text":"這樣子的案子洩露的資訊就被詐騙集團運用了就去欺騙了這些胃王的親屬所以我認為啊竟然竟然要做防詐專案精檢那除了銀行合作社"},{"start":12425.031,"end":12439.911,"text":"以外卷商是很重要的一環應該把它納入可不可以是跟委員報告那目前為止的話卷商是由交易所這邊來處理那專案的清檢的部分這個是我們都是要必須要有排定我們是不是請副局長"},{"start":12441.347,"end":12468.508,"text":"報告委員那現在是就是在這個打造端法這個授權之法這邊定點有關於這個防治炸雞犯罪危害的這個應遵循事項裡面就你簡單的回答我嘛把券商納入有什麼困難嗎這部分委員的關心的部分我們檢察局這部分將來會納入規劃納入齁好就納入就這麼簡單嘛那第二點那個副主委是"},{"start":12469.808,"end":12497.676,"text":"針對不動產專案精簡的部分那我記得我在四五月份我有問金管會問一題我就是問說那這個本國銀行貸款給建商超過18個月還沒有動工這些空地貸款金額有多少結果你們說本局尚無收集事項資料那麼我跟"},{"start":12499.264,"end":12509.197,"text":"本國34家銀行一一詢問以後天啊加起來欸貸款給空地18個月沒有動工的竟然超過2000億有2180億之多"},{"start":12513.717,"end":12542.782,"text":"那這個嚴重的危害了中央銀行當初利益良善的這個規定所以我希望啊我希望再來你這一個明年度的這三大三大精簡專案不動產專案精簡應該要納入這些建商空地貸款超過18個月沒有動工的部分可不可以是在這個部分的話"},{"start":12543.777,"end":12569.075,"text":"是,報告委員,這個有關於這個土地這個超過18個月沒有動工的部分這部分一直是在我們的檢查的一個範圍的項目裡面,謝謝一直在你們檢討範圍的項目?那當初你怎麼回答我沒有?就是回答我沒有我才會那麼氣嘛還好,你們先上任的這位彭主委很好人家我面對面這樣質詢他的時候我說欸這個有2000億有空力貸款"},{"start":12572.057,"end":12601.366,"text":"他馬上答復我正確的數字2180億整個金管會不當一回事也沒有統計說你們沒有這一部分的查查報給我等於說你們不曉得說這個應該中央銀行管的但是唯有金管會裡面唯有彭主委一個人知道這個金額好啦最重要我剩30秒我給你提薯條三兄弟啦是"},{"start":12602.284,"end":12630.575,"text":"我們經濟部主導的這個金融消費保護法主導幾十年了那個擺在那邊虛擺著好不容易金管會翻箱倒櫃把它找出來在我們這些立委在我們立院要推動租賃金融公司管理法還沒有立法完成前當然金保法是最好的方式讓鼠條三兄弟從良"},{"start":12632.406,"end":12657.989,"text":"接受我們政府納管他然後我們就可以依這個法要求債務協商結果讓金管會去跟薯條三兄弟談了三個月薯條三兄弟不動於衷另外他還找我們其他委員當然每個委員有不同的看法我們都尊重說事要開"},{"start":12659.697,"end":12679.708,"text":"公聽會 大家好好談談 到現在為止公聽會只聞樓梯響 不見人下來根本就是故意拖延我 主張納管屬聊山兄弟 但是我不反對說那這個議題 大家各界公聽會來談一談"},{"start":12681.408,"end":12699.836,"text":"在公聽會要說到做到這種故意拖延的方式就是在拖延我們政府對薯條三兄弟過去種種惡行惡狀的管理這些所有被薯條三兄弟"},{"start":12701.072,"end":12704.655,"text":"所以副主委我最後這幾秒鐘我要跟你講"},{"start":12728.013,"end":12754.313,"text":"公聽會要嘛就開麻煩你跟這幾位我們立法院的同仁們也跟他們回報說要嘛就開開同意但是不要再拖延可不可以是我們會溝通第二點再政告數條三兄弟這是政府全民給你一個從良的機會"},{"start":12756.644,"end":12756.964,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12777.202,"end":12805.722,"text":"登記花園的委員竟已詢答完畢那就是委員詢答未及答覆還有請補充資訊請相關部會一週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其手定那報告跟詢答都已經完畢委員王宏威、陳一貞所提的書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆本次會議議程已進行完畢"},{"start":12807.384,"end":12815.073,"text":"討論有不在場的委員補題書面執行一併列入記錄．刊登公報．並請議事人員協助處理。散會"},{"start":12858.49,"end":12858.951,"text":"MING PAO CANADA 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我們現場各位學者專家還有我們教育部的各官員代表大家早安"},{"start":1877.022,"end":1877.723,"text":"應應數位時代．啟動性別平等教育2.0公聽會"},{"start":1896.774,"end":1920.534,"text":"賴清德總統在2024年總統選舉的時候也有提出啟動性平教育2.0的政見希望推動師資培育納入性平的必修課程推動多元的權齡的性別平等教育強化尊重性別差異跟性別平等的情感教育這三個方向政策其實就是希望解決現場老師不會教"},{"start":1923.436,"end":1943.356,"text":"教學內容不全面缺乏納入男性經驗老師害怕教這四種問題我想關於第一點老師不會教性別平等教育協會去年報告指出近四成填答者在失陪和在職進修階段"},{"start":1945.538,"end":1945.598,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":1970.401,"end":1970.421,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":1991.857,"end":2020.606,"text":"一種是讓教師學習性平知識另外一種是讓性平專業者入校教學過去輔導團多由教師組成屬於第一種但是量能難以全面入班在現場教師及相關資源尚不夠完備之前是否有第二種方式可以立即協助校園性平教育例如引入校外資源"},{"start":2021.906,"end":2024.607,"text":"教育部的教學資源也更新不足,讓教學現場缺乏完整且適合的教材"},{"start":2044.894,"end":2063.495,"text":"在教育部之前的回應正在與民間合作檢討並研發教材希望今天這個公聽會也能進一步就這個部分收集各界的意見此外目前性平教育是採融入式的方式融合在各學科中"},{"start":2064.216,"end":2092.117,"text":"但是課綱有所缺乏下性平內容被分散到不同科不同科的老師的知能授課時間跟支持都有落差反而融入之後又讓性平教育變得破碎沒有全面性的教學想跟各位請益這個問題的現場經驗跟解方我們在座有許多現場的老師跟學生例如學生端"},{"start":2092.677,"end":2092.697,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2109.36,"end":2121.227,"text":"國民教育階段以外,今天也希望能討論如何推動及發展多元全齡性平教育,特別是學齡前幼兒階段的師資及內容。"},{"start":2135.413,"end":2156.494,"text":"關於缺乏納入男性經驗的問題以國教院最新的2015年的教學勢力為例我的辦公室發現教案大多聚焦在女性的處境或者是沒有特別強調性別幾乎沒有聚焦在男性成長的經驗跟受挫的經驗跟需求"},{"start":2157.575,"end":2179.619,"text":"然而今年在網路匿名平台跟校園中興起的譬如說批判女權自助餐或者是焦慮MeToo之後都不知道怎麼追女生的聲音那我們可以觀察到如果從國小就開始接受性平教育的性平原生帶還是有很多人的生命經驗沒有被看見對話跟照顧那性別平等的"},{"start":2184.92,"end":2213.505,"text":"脈絡一直不只是關注女性就性別平等運動來講那如何看到男性經驗然後跟他們的需求非常重要那對此部長之前也有回應未來會在研發教材的時候積極補足納入數位時代網路的人際互動情感教育等所以今天也希望大家能夠討論建議如何發展貼近臺灣男性成長經驗跟需求的性平教育"},{"start":2214.285,"end":2236.753,"text":"最後,老師害怕教,性別平等教育協會報告也指出,大多數老師在實施性平教育時會遭遇到外部壓力,校方支持跟授課時間不足。所以今天也希望能夠關心教學現場有哪些困境,如何解決,如果家長有誤解的話,如何跟家長做更好的溝通。"},{"start":2237.893,"end":2238.133,"text":"公聽會８事由："},{"start":2258.098,"end":2258.598,"text":"現場的專家學者跟官員"},{"start":2283.251,"end":2307.037,"text":"信憑教育20年學生倡議連線代表 邱奕翔全國教師工會總聯合會政策研究員 陳佩瑩全國教育產業總工會老師 詹斐雲台北教育大學教育經營與管理學系 陳建志副教授"},{"start":2309.742,"end":2332.884,"text":"國教行動聯盟理事長王漢陽臺灣EDU教育協會理事長蔡奇業全國高級中等學校教育產業工會政策顧問高孟林全國教師會副秘書長李雅菁"},{"start":2335.756,"end":2345.727,"text":"臺灣同志諮詢熱線協會副秘書長彭志謬婦女新知基金會倡議部主任王小涵"},{"start":2348.49,"end":2372.685,"text":"新北市諮商新理事公會理事長羅惠群台灣不會教小孩行動聯盟常務監事陳淑婷彭婉如基金會幼兒園部副主任呂嘉文有沒有漏掉哪一位?"},{"start":2373.936,"end":2401.737,"text":"好,錄掉我們待會再介紹再來我們介紹那個這個教育部的代表教育部長賜林騰嬌師長教育部學生事務及特殊教育師副師長許家倩科長林佩宇師培及藝術教育師副師長王淑娟科長陳慧如"},{"start":2404.197,"end":2426.184,"text":"國教署副署長戴淑芬科長洪貞輝國教院副院長嚴慶祥副研究員劉欣怡臺北市教育局學務校安室專員陳怡貝臺北市麗湖國小校長蔡素慧"},{"start":2429.735,"end":2446.523,"text":"海北市教育局學務校安室老師鍾文聰嘉義市政府教育處學府校安科科長林淑華嘉義市政府教育處學生輔導諮商中心主任林秀香"},{"start":2450.774,"end":2474.499,"text":"為了讓大家順利表達意見我們做如下處理每位貴賓發言時間是7分鐘在第6分鐘的時候我們會有鈴聲提醒7分鐘結束的時候有一個結束鈴聲專家學者的發言我們以簽名的先後順序為準現場的發言跟書面資料立法院也會做成記錄坑登公報"},{"start":2475.539,"end":2502.257,"text":"在場的立委如果有意見發表10點前請到台前登記我們會在會議中進行穿插以登記的順序為準現在我們首先大綱我就不再重複了大家都有書面資料我們就先請教育部林騰嬌次長就現行規定執行狀況相關問題提出說明時間8分鐘等一下簽名順序第一位是邱以翔次長請"},{"start":2505.906,"end":2529.957,"text":"主席歡迎召會各位委員、團體代表及與會人士先生今天因應數位時代啟動性別平等教育2.0本部進行報告並聆聽各位委員、團體代表以及與會女士先生著見深感榮幸以下就本部相關措施提出報告敬請各位委員及先進指教與支持"},{"start":2530.697,"end":2556.096,"text":"本部於111年的8月1日發布《性別平等教育白皮書2.0》內含課程與教學、教育人員與獅子培育等並就目標分為短、中、長、成策略推動首先在獅子培育方面職前教師的部分本部已於第十一屆第三次性別平等教育委員會就通過正式之職前教師應完成至少"},{"start":2557.488,"end":2576.18,"text":"18小時性別平等教育時數規定嚴禮補助各師資培育大學辦理18小時性別平等教育課程工作坊等並檢視受補助學校之辦理情形以提升師資生具備將性別平等教育融入教學通報性平法令等職能"},{"start":2577.722,"end":2597.324,"text":"2.在執教師的部分本部補助各地方政府辦理友善校園學生事務與輔導工作計畫鼓勵各地方政府辦理新進教師性別平等教育培訓活動或工作方教師主任及教學組長性別平等教育含情感教育相關的研習"},{"start":2598.886,"end":2618.548,"text":"校園性別事件案例研討會及行為人防制教育培訓等徵額活動提供現場教師參考運用其次,在多元與且全臨時性別平等教育推動方面在教學資源的部分本部依據《十二年國民基本教育課程綱要》"},{"start":2619.289,"end":2638.582,"text":"定定審定本教科書性別平等教育檢視指標作為出版業者自我檢核參考並提供審查委員審查依據令有關性別平等教育議題資源及全面性教育參考說明手冊皆置於本部教科書審查資訊網供教師參考運用"},{"start":2642.625,"end":2656.921,"text":"學校推動部分在學前階段本部訂定幼兒園教保活動課程各綱使教保服務人員依據幼兒發展狀態與學習需求規劃合理之教保活動課程並"},{"start":2658.783,"end":2687.686,"text":"教導幼生於活動中學習性別認同與性別刻板印象的察覺關懷與尊重不同性別的人在高級中等以下學校及大專校園階段則藉由鼓勵與補助各校課程教學與辦理徵衡培訓的方式落實性平法第18條之精神第三部分在情感交易方面有鑑於男性在成長過程中常被要求壓抑情感"},{"start":2688.186,"end":2710.814,"text":"表現性能力以暴力展現能力競爭不能輸的現象未來本部將就學校與社會體制對男性養成的影響將情感表達等議題加強宣導及融入課程教學並協助學校積極辦理以學生為對象之情感教育議題的專題演講"},{"start":2712.555,"end":2737.62,"text":"作談、電影、賞析、小團體、主題周等相關活動將學生需求、時下關注焦點等元素納入考量並以活潑多元貼近學生的活動設計提高學生的參與動機讓其更有興趣探究情感教育的命關第四部分在推動性別平等教育之困境及解決策略部分"},{"start":2738.28,"end":2759.719,"text":"根據現況的檢視目前在性別平等教育相關專業課程或師資人才仍缺乏原本布於113年透過補助各師資培育大學辦理職前教師18小時性別平等教育課程其能增進教師之性平專業資能逐年建立師資人才"},{"start":2760.379,"end":2781.299,"text":"同時在議題融入教學實踐效果部分仍需努力目前本部已原定性別平等課程地圖掛網未來將辦理教師增能賠利並以性別平等課程地圖融入各領域教學在幼兒教育推動性別平等教育成效難以減和"},{"start":2782.72,"end":2811.448,"text":"本部委將透過教保服務人員徵用研習機制強化教保服務人員相關性別平等知能以協助學齡前性別平等教育之推動本部期待未來在性別平等教育2.0得以藉由情感教育性教育認識及尊重不同性別性別特徵性別特質性別認同性傾向教育以及校園性別事件防治"},{"start":2812.168,"end":2812.589,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":2831.145,"end":2831.165,"text":"陳佩穎議員"},{"start":2864.141,"end":2881.032,"text":"各位參與公聽會的夥伴大家好我是學生團體性平教育20年學生倡議連線的成員邱逸祥我們團體是由來自不同學校關心校園和青年性別平等議題的大學生所組成並且我們積極地在校園內外進行性別平等的倡議行動"},{"start":2882.333,"end":2905.68,"text":"而在開始今天的論述以前我認為所有的倡議行動都當然要回到生命經驗開始說起我今年20歲那我高中的時候是接受108的課綱教育而從我國中開始其實就已經可以在健康課本上面看到性平教育或性教育的內容不過在我的國中階段性教育這個章節被老師以本段跳過自己回去讀一句話帶過"},{"start":2907.14,"end":2917.76,"text":"下課後我就詢問老師為什麼要這麼做他才偷偷的跟我說因為他收到家長打電話來反應對課本裡面性教育內容的不滿而被迫做出這樣的決定"},{"start":2919.622,"end":2938.101,"text":"除此之外再回想到我第一次接觸性教育的時間是在國小的高年級當時課堂正在播放介紹男女生殖器差異的影片而台下的同學以三校的態度面對時老師並沒有什麼積極的作為我相信某部分的原因也是來自於老師的不知所措"},{"start":2939.222,"end":2949.521,"text":"雖然我們都是性平教育的原生代然而我相信這個世代許多人的生命經驗裡面性平教育的教學現場並沒有呈現性平教育應該有的樣子"},{"start":2951.434,"end":2978.648,"text":"網路時代來臨以後我們總可以在臉書或一些匿名的社群平台看到性別歧視的言論而許多言論的行為動機是基於對性暴力的錯誤理解例如有些人誤以為我在臉書的留言區標註朋友是同性戀只是開玩笑而已不會傷害到別人或是他們誤以為性外流是自己對方愛拍的就是要給別人看當這些錯誤的言論在青年的社交互動中的出現變得習以為常"},{"start":2980.729,"end":2988.982,"text":"甚至成為青年社交文化的一部分的時候歧視言論就越常在網路中出現也藉此傳得更廣傷害更加擴大"},{"start":2990.814,"end":3014.871,"text":"我們團體相信這些社會現象會出現以及我生命經驗中遇到的性教育教學現場的情況都跟性平教育的缺失有關係如果只靠修正性別事件的處理程序或增定刑罰及重罰化卻忽略性平教育的落實這些問題是不可能解決的因此我們需要完善的性平教育並且可以被順利的落實"},{"start":3016.132,"end":3038.448,"text":"另外在本次公聽會的討論提綱中有特別提到男性困境在性平教育缺席的問題我其實也深有感受我自己其實是異性戀男性而身為所謂的異男在參與一些性平倡議的過程中常常會成為少數群體而當然的我有一些也是異性戀男性的朋友們他們大多對於我參與性平運動感到不解"},{"start":3038.968,"end":3054.548,"text":"因為很多異性戀男性的認知中性別平等著重於保護女性權利或者是多元性別群體的權利跟他們沒有直接關係甚至會誤以為性平機制對男性是不利的是威脅一般的存在當然,我不認為這些認知是事實"},{"start":3056.75,"end":3085.081,"text":"畢竟社會壓抑男性的情感表達對男性經濟能力的不合理期待要求男性必須在親密關係中作為主動的一方同時又必須要找到伴侶等等社會形塑的男性困境明明都跟父權社會和性別不平等有關啊不過我們的性平教育卻缺少處理男性陽剛文化困境的這塊拼圖讓男性最後成為性平教育的旁聽者理所當然的影響男性對性別平等的關注"},{"start":3086.081,"end":3111.82,"text":"普通學校的性平教育風氣都已經如此了我們團體認為警察學校、軍事學校等等陽剛文化更興盛的教育場所也更需要因地制宜的性平教育而性教育方面缺乏積極同意的性溝通教育加上僵化的性文化想像增加青年在性探索時造成他人不適甚至觸法的可能也提高所有人性實踐時的風險"},{"start":3113.86,"end":3139.535,"text":"而有不當行為的人面對性平制度的懲罰機制時在欠缺性平認識的情況下也可能產生誤解、仇視的情緒甚至對制度的反動可見缺乏性平教育對營造平等的社會是不利的甚至對性平制度的維繫是危險的事情因此我們性平連線認為青年需要更完善的性別平等教育也在此對教育部提出四個訴求"},{"start":3140.956,"end":3164.107,"text":"首先,我們要求教育部提供各級學校教師性平教學現場的具體支持確保老師不會受到任何不當的外部壓力避免任何人阻礙性教育的授課或妨礙性平教育順利實施教育部也應該提出相關的指引讓學校老師提前做好準備應對性平教育教學現場可能出現的一切情況"},{"start":3165.711,"end":3194.356,"text":"第二,我們要求教育部正視網路敵意環境和反性平的社會氛圍應該對反性平社會氛圍的成因和應對方法展開研究用以更新現今社會所需要的性平教育內容另外,性平教育也必須要開始重視男性困境強調男性的情感表達和破除社會對於男性的不合理期待讓所有性別都可以從性平教育受益所有性別都真正的成為性平教育的受眾"},{"start":3196.406,"end":3214.581,"text":"3.性教育必須要納入性溝通教育並以積極同意的概念為教學基礎而性教育的章節必須要提及真實的性互動以避免青年只能透過色情片來學習錯誤的性互動知識我們不應該讓學生失去取得正確性知識的權利"},{"start":3215.942,"end":3239.623,"text":"最後,我們要求教育部啟動實證研究計畫研究和理解不同學科和學校的特殊性別處境學科方面,例如體育課程很常出現的二元化的性別授課方法學校方面,像剛剛提到的軍警學校、體育學校、藝術學校、護理學校等等這些場域其實都有它的特殊性教育部應該提出因地制宜的方法"},{"start":3239.943,"end":3240.183,"text":"公聽會議員：完整會議員："},{"start":3277.543,"end":3293.044,"text":"主席 各位委員還有與會的專家學者跟媒體朋友們早安我是中國教師工會總聯合會的政策研究員陳佩穎今天是以基層教師的角度要來表達對目前性別平等教育教學現場的觀察跟建議"},{"start":3294.918,"end":3312.987,"text":"首先我要先做的是現況分析我們有兩個主要的現況分析第一個是性別平等教育在教科書的核心概念目前仍然是不完整的這一兩年我們常見到說在網路有流傳因為性別冒犯或者是歧義而衍生的這些新聞事件"},{"start":3313.747,"end":3332.629,"text":"顯示在數位時代的性別平等教育應該要儘速呈現在我們的教材裡但是我們檢視現在的課綱跟教材在有關性別平等有關的媒體速讀能力或是性別友善的素養是明顯不夠的另外情感教育的課程在高中以下沒有普及"},{"start":3334.03,"end":3347.301,"text":"會讓學生缺乏必要的能力去因應進而衍生更多的性品世界第二個狀況是我們觀察到的教學資源的更新速度是比較緩慢的導致我們教師在教學的時候缺乏能夠呼應時代時事的內容"},{"start":3349.202,"end":3373.974,"text":"最後我們也觀察到不同地區跟特殊家庭結構的性別教育需求是被忽略的我在嘉義縣的國小服務像我們這種以農工業為主的縣市其實性別的角色分工還是偏於傳統跟固化例如我們返鄉服務的青農仍然是女性的比例會遠遠的少於男性而這樣子的角色分工或定義在教材裡面是比較少被提到跟反思的"},{"start":3374.554,"end":3374.734,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":3394.305,"end":3416.731,"text":"第二個觀察的部分是以性平等教育實施的內涵跟時間空間是缺乏彈性的中小學的性平等教育議題目前仍以硬體融入課程來實施比較多受限於領域配課的結束就很容易流於形式再者我們依據去年臺灣中小學學生網路使用行為調查報告學生的第一次接觸網路的時間有高達93%是在國小的中年級以前"},{"start":3420.872,"end":3439.609,"text":"四年級以上也有超過三成的學生都有在使用社群網站跟即時通訊軟體由此可知 不論是媒體上面的錯誤辨別意識或者是網路交友所衍生的性別事件國小學生就都可能遇得到了所以我們認為情感教育在國小階段似乎是需要實施的"},{"start":3440.089,"end":3462.236,"text":"但我們目前老師面臨的多重壓力就如前面報告的學者所說教學的內容我們擔心學生跟家長反彈動輒得久那教學的時間空間是缺乏彈性的而且我們檢視有些教學方案其實是聲音到師生都會覺得尷尬整體而言目前的性平教學模式在高中以下階段是一個無法讓老師安心自在授課的狀況"},{"start":3463.616,"end":3492.864,"text":"所以我們提出了兩點改善第一點改善是要檢視我們的課綱級教材增加數位的性平素養來貼近學生生活經驗首先要進行的是課綱修訂的時候請國教院能夠籌組性平等議題小組盤點全面性教育的八大概念核心跟我們現行教材的落差還要強化我們數位時代需要的素養此外過時或僵化的議題人物課程方案可以委由性平輔導團來做修改"},{"start":3493.464,"end":3493.624,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":3519.703,"end":3533.557,"text":"小燕兒為何書生第一眼會看到的是動物 把他認為是他的跟隨對象這個還沒有問題 至少在我們教生物的人眼中可是來到第三題的時候呢 他問到說小燕兒的爸爸此時可能在哪裡"},{"start":3534.418,"end":3556.144,"text":"接著大家要看到第四題好 透過這樣的問答要來引導學生完成育嬰洽以及人類家庭親人的角色可以透過彼此協調的學習內涵這實在是有點牽強以我自己是自然老師來看而且我相信我的學生不會對這樣的問答感到有興趣好 接著我們要提的第二個建議是我們希望 抱歉"},{"start":3557.523,"end":3557.903,"text":"教材提供"},{"start":3573.68,"end":3595.959,"text":"推動性別平等教育的數位化打造自主學習的新模式其實現在呢像這樣子的自學軟體已經使用非常普遍我們建議可以將性別平等教育教材建置於例如英才網這樣的網站它能夠提供互動式的學習方式模擬的案例跟測驗還能夠幫助學生更直觀的理解性別平等的核心內容"},{"start":3597.521,"end":3613.483,"text":"自學平台打破領域與時間空間的疆界在現在失智不足的情形或是失智流動率高的地區就能大幅提升性平教育的覆蓋率而且老師與家長的陪伴學生使用的彈性也都能增加"},{"start":3614.344,"end":3639.798,"text":"此外,像這樣子的自學網站﹐它能夠依據不同的階段﹐不同的年齡層的學習需求﹐分別建置﹐設置節點﹐所以能夠讓每個學生﹐每個老師都能夠在安心自在的環境裡面﹐依照自己的節奏﹐完成對性別平等學習的深刻理解﹐還有實踐﹐所以以上是我們全教總﹐我以組織身份代表﹐來提供給大家的觀察跟建議﹐謝謝"},{"start":3644.433,"end":3646.195,"text":"陳佩穎,代表全國教師公會總聯合會發言"},{"start":3670.854,"end":3684.89,"text":"主席還有各位與會的專家學者記者還有教育部的官員們我是代表全國教育產業總工會出席發言那我是一個在教學現場將近"},{"start":3687.433,"end":3687.453,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3705.151,"end":3705.732,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":3728.809,"end":3750.123,"text":"是男女朋友或者誰跟誰牽牽手那現場的教學老師可能都會立即處理但是這種開玩笑的性質老師如果以性平事件來處理的時候就會被家長質疑老師你是故意找麻煩我們曾經遇過小朋友在廁所裡面"},{"start":3758.396,"end":3761.818,"text":"互相取消各別的生殖器官"},{"start":3775.438,"end":3800.603,"text":"但是依據性別平等教育法第22條第一條規定學校校長教師職員或公有知悉服務學校發生疑似校園性別事件應立即通報學校防治規定所定的學校全責人員並由學校全責人員以下列規定辦理"},{"start":3801.463,"end":3825.664,"text":"自持不得超過24小時因此不管是合意的兩性交往違反意願的性騷擾性侵害甚至開玩笑的性騷擾只要是在性別平等教育法規定的範圍都要依照規定處理老師別無選擇但是面對第一線的家長老師非常的為難學校的"},{"start":3826.815,"end":3853.432,"text":"性別平等處理的老師們也非常的為難但規定就是規定從過往諸多性平事件的處理個案中老師於教協現場處理校園性平事件的時候家長經常會怪罪老師通報甚至要求老師不要通報但實務上就曾經發生老師因為家長要求不通報"},{"start":3855.617,"end":3859.605,"text":"結果老師因延遲通報而被裁罰12萬經書院兩次還是遭駁回"},{"start":3867.777,"end":3889.305,"text":"由上述可知老師在處理校園性平事件的時候常受到法令規範不能忽視性平事件的重要性而對校園性平事件的處理家長的介入反而阻礙老師的處理因此家長的性平教育也是迫不及待的"},{"start":3892.44,"end":3918.833,"text":"從家庭教育、學校教育以及社會教育的功能與角色家庭教育是一切教育的根本在性別平等、家長甚至是至關重要的角色試想在我國的教育類型中除了各級公私立學校外還有實驗學校以及非學校型態實驗教育的在家自學"},{"start":3920.134,"end":3947.848,"text":"大部分校園性平事件都發生在各級的公私立學校是否顯示有足夠社會經驗經濟能力可以負擔的實驗學校會在家自學的家長們有能力陪伴並關注家庭教育為基礎的性平教育而就讀公私立學校的家長們大部分忙於工作無法投入"},{"start":3949.461,"end":3966.916,"text":"與家庭教育因此學生從小就缺乏了性平意識才容易在校園生活無法察覺行為已經踩到性平的紅線就我在學校遇過的狀況我們的小朋友喜歡圍在老師周邊碰觸老師的身體"},{"start":3977.355,"end":3980.177,"text":"老師會告知他 請他不要碰觸但是呢 學生來碰觸了老師我幫你按摩那這個話傳到家裡家長居然投訴老師性騷擾那讓我們覺得現場的老師非常的為難"},{"start":4001.345,"end":4026.556,"text":"那不是因為我們教育的不足而是學生們覺得他喜歡跟老師親近我們也遇過學生在家裡受到了家長的責罰來到學校老師安慰他女老師對女學生擁抱拍肩這樣也被家長投訴所以我們都只好跟所有的老師們說"},{"start":4028.482,"end":4032.199,"text":"可以不碰到學生就盡量不碰到可是這"},{"start":4034.98,"end":4062.815,"text":"就有一點矯枉過正了回顧相關的法令教育基本法第二條第三條為實現前項教育的目的國家、教育機構、教師、父母應負協助之責任但是性別平等教育法第三條等法用詞的定義僅只有學校、老師、職員、公友及學生"},{"start":4064.296,"end":4073.581,"text":"並無家長 條文內容也未規範家長在性別平等教育應付之法定責任與相關規範 縱觀上述本會認為推動性別平等教育的當務之急 除了老師之外 應該對"},{"start":4087.682,"end":4094.586,"text":"性別平等教育法進行修法：也將家長納入性平規範的對象以上謝謝"},{"start":4111.65,"end":4136.048,"text":"好主席以及各位教育界的夥伴大家早安大家好我想今天非常感謝主席針對數位時代啟動性別平等教育2.0來召開公聽會教育文化委員會在這個會期裡面其實已經到了尾聲但是能夠有那麼有意義的一個討論我想還是有它的一個價值存在但第一點我必須要先正告教育部我知道我們所有的"},{"start":4137.049,"end":4158.565,"text":"夥伴其實過去到現在性別教育都推動得非常用心但教育部我真的還是要拜託您看一下您今天的報告朝委開宗明義講因應數位時代但是我們的通篇的報告其實是沒有針對數位時代來去做具體聚焦的回應"},{"start":4159.963,"end":4184.51,"text":"我沒有不忍心強烈的苛責但是今天的主題既然性別平等教育大家都認為重要過去20年大家一起在努力推動但是為什麼今天還要再討論其實最重點在於是數位時代那我們要先講數位時代的特性是什麼我自己整理了幾點可能跟我們第一線的教育工作者大家一起來分享數位時代第一它有匿名性"},{"start":4185.47,"end":4210.636,"text":"網路上有很多討論他是存在匿名性的第二線上討論他沒有時間限制離開了教育現場環境之後回到地方回到任何環境只要有網路上還是可以持續討論所以他是24小時的第三他沒有地域性網路無遠弗屆所以有可能北中南甚至國內國外都會在特定議題上面有做討論以及第四"},{"start":4211.596,"end":4212.216,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":4235.202,"end":4235.222,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4255.675,"end":4256.295,"text":"首先數位涵養跟媒體的事變"},{"start":4272.205,"end":4299.87,"text":"培養辨識以及抵抗刻板印象的一個能力其實我們在網路上常常看到有很多是歧視議題的討論而這些歧視議題的討論其實就如同我剛剛所講的數位時代是有其匿名性也因此本來平常時間沒有會出現的這種性別暴力或是性別對待但是在網路上很有可能因為匿名的關係而產生而雖然我們已經有在性別平等教育法裡面有規範"},{"start":4301.363,"end":4330.616,"text":"但是在數位時代下面應該進一步把網路謠言、假訊息、影音操作都納入性別平等教育尤其是透過真實的案例譬如說過去到現在層出不窮的網路霸凌、跟騷或是像D-FAC等相關的技術都說明性別權益有可能被侵害的方式來教導、引導以及預防如何未來遇到這樣的狀況產生我們有辨識的抗壓能力第二個部分"},{"start":4334.867,"end":4335.147,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":4352.27,"end":4352.75,"text":"委員．啟動性別平等教育2.0"},{"start":4375.248,"end":4392.772,"text":"如果說你拍攝了性影像我同意但不代表說我能夠接受你去惡意的散布或是任意的散布所以這一些部分其實當校園裡面的學生有可能他們也面臨到一樣的問題的時候我們能不能有更直接有效的方式"},{"start":4393.172,"end":4422.375,"text":"在校園內部來協助做一個快速有效的通報機制那並且我們也要教導學生認識數位人權其實孟凱從2020年進來到立法院之後一直在推動性私密影像防護法那雖然最後我們沒有做一個專法而是散落在各不同的法令但其宗旨都是一樣的就是我們希望能夠加強不管是男生男性不管是女性任何人都有自己的身體的一個自主權"},{"start":4423.095,"end":4445.901,"text":"而即便是拍攝了性私密影像只要不同意散佈你就無權任何人都無權散佈並且我們擁有身體影像的下架權但是大家也知道數位時代真的只要一上網之後你說要用公部門的力量私部門的力量把性私密影像完全給下架真的不容易"},{"start":4446.441,"end":4468.555,"text":"所以最好的根本辦法就是不要拒絕明確的表態而我想這些部分其實是我們可以更加強在學校教育裡面能夠讓學生從小做起培養他們性自主影像的觀念以及第三最後我想行政跟政策部門持續投入資源跟追蹤評估當然"},{"start":4470.509,"end":4490.075,"text":"我看了一下今天教育部給我們的所有報告其實裡面都還是有做到啦我想次長也不要一個苦瓜臉啦好像我開宗明義其實我還是站在鼓勵的角度我想我們今天既然開一個公聽會聚焦要在數位時代那就代表過去大家做的已經有一定的成效"},{"start":4490.595,"end":4511.469,"text":"但如何針對數位時代來臨的變化我們更加強所以我期待的其實是看到說未來數位的部分能夠怎麼樣有一個評估跟改善的機制是我們每年在做不管是大專院校高中國小國中的教師的一個討論評鑑的時候是能夠把它給獨立出來的"},{"start":4514.611,"end":4542.504,"text":"我還是強調數位時代是我們共同人類大家一起面對的一個方向而沒有辦法逆的一個情況下我們唯有更打好體質做好基本的事變能力以及保護的狀態才能夠讓我們的學童從校園進入到職場進入到社會的時候他有一個清楚明白的認知我想這也才是真真正正讓性別平等教育能夠落實在台灣落實在中華民國落實在"},{"start":4543.044,"end":4552.73,"text":"兩千三百五十萬人每一個人的心目當中所以最後簡單一分鐘我的結論其實很簡單唯有大家還是一起努力"},{"start":4554.019,"end":4555.219,"text":"公聽會．啟動性別平等教育2.0"},{"start":4573.746,"end":4586.861,"text":"感謝大家我們一起努力有任何需要的地方我們也一起來推進那比較抱歉我因為今天行程的關係還是會在辦公室來聆聽各位先進的發言那也請各位先進不令指教謝謝"},{"start":4592.213,"end":4593.494,"text":"王瀚陽理事長"},{"start":4607.472,"end":4633.48,"text":"親愛的我們的教委還有現場在座各位關心性別平等教育的各位教育夥伴大家早安我是國立台北教育大學教經系的陳建志同時我之前也在國小服務擔任了13年的國小老師也擔任了國教輔導團的團員目前服務在師培大學因此對於今天這個主題相當的感佩也非常的謝謝教委願意來安排這個主題因為確實"},{"start":4634.46,"end":4652.257,"text":"在教育的現場性別平等教育它是不是一個很受到關注的議題呢它絕對是一個很受到關注的議題因此我們可以說性別平等它絕對會是一個普世的價值因此從我們研究的角度出發我們不能只focus在台灣我們應該要放眼到"},{"start":4652.677,"end":4672.158,"text":"全世界是不是都很關心這個性別平等教育因此現在在我們的領域有一個非常熟悉的研究方法叫做文獻劑量分析我們撈了就是從資料庫裡面找出一些跟性別平等以及教育這兩個關鍵詞還有我們的title就是我們的題目以及"},{"start":4672.819,"end":4672.879,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":4693.035,"end":4693.676,"text":"公聽會委員：完整會議"},{"start":4718.416,"end":4738.892,"text":"公共健康等等類似的議題裡面我們再用R語言去分析了我們的相關性別平等跟教育的相關議題大家可以看到在右下的象限表示說它是具有高相關性但是發展密度比較低表示就是說這些是具有該領域研究的基本主題"},{"start":4739.653,"end":4763.808,"text":"何謂基本主題就是說我們已經有投入了部分的研究在這邊例如大家可以看到性別平等教育甚至是我們所謂的女權主義還有在高等教育階段性別平等這個議題是比較常被touch到的還有我們的woman所以因此我們就可以非常肯定今天這個議題男性確實是在這個議題裡面比較容易受到忽略的"},{"start":4764.77,"end":4764.81,"text":"主席"},{"start":4783.943,"end":4810.495,"text":"第一個我們的基於性別的暴力第二個我們家庭暴力第三我們親密伴侶的暴力這些主題跟我們這些性別研究密切相關但是發展程度有待於提升也就是說這個中間這個主題跟我們性別平等非常的有關係在數位時代剛剛孟凱文委員還有提到在數位時代這個議題越來越重要因為我們可能會通過很多"},{"start":4811.135,"end":4811.595,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4829.428,"end":4829.568,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":4849.85,"end":4876.422,"text":"我們學校的學生18歲沒有上大學然後他就結婚生子了我說那生子之後呢就孩子養孩子所以大家這個議題或許目前在台灣還是少部分可是這個議題確實它跟性別平等身體的界線等等大家都是可以去考量的因此我們國小的老師幼兒園的老師我相信絕對都是非常用心的在推動"},{"start":4877.102,"end":4888.992,"text":"因此後續我提出了幾個我自己覺得的建議第一個落實在職教師的性別平等的增能這個我覺得應該是現階段當務之急而且我們可以做到的第二"},{"start":4889.608,"end":4913.247,"text":"我們可以考量就是說我們這個在職教師是不是我們也要擴大我們的一些人員的範疇只要在學校服務的終點教師或者是我們的教練或者是外籍教師或是全體的職員工因為大部分的正式或代理老師他一定會參加這個性別平等真人的研習但是其他的成員或許因為"},{"start":4914.608,"end":4930.07,"text":"受課終點、配課結束、在校時間等等的關係或許他們在這方面的資能稍微欠缺一點因此或許這一些老師這一些我們所謂的成員可以考量納入到我們的在職進修裡面"},{"start":4930.93,"end":4931.15,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":4949.699,"end":4965.641,"text":"都已經有跟性平概念有相當扣合的最緊密連接就是教育政策與法規它其實裡面都會介紹性別平等三法或許我們就可以如果在這門課裡面把性別平等三法框架在裡面的話或許這也是一個解方"},{"start":4966.121,"end":4993.328,"text":"我們剛剛有提到就是說現在我們性別平等關切的是公共健康消明性別暴力因此各個地方縣市政府我覺得教育部可能要鼓勵各個地方縣市政府積極的推動性別平等的作為例如我們的屏東它就是原鄉蠻多的一個鄉鎮一個縣市我們就成立文件站在文件站裡面我們全鄰的性別平等課程就可以進去新北的校園月經課程還有我們"},{"start":4995.809,"end":5011.645,"text":"衛福部的男生的相關的一些身體發展的一些議題我覺得就是鼓勵各單位第五學校輕職教育一定要融入性別平等的概念因為剛剛像很多的家長很多的同學都說家長他反而不一定比老師"},{"start":5012.446,"end":5013.086,"text":"王漢陽國教行動聯盟理事長"},{"start":5040.631,"end":5042.753,"text":"國教盟有幾個呼籲 其實剛才大家都講到很多家長的問題"},{"start":5065.171,"end":5082.291,"text":"所以不如我們應該要來打造一個親師生共同協作的一個本土性教育那我們過去一直知道說我們用國外現在CSE的全面性教育當中的一些課程綱要來去看的話其實我們本土的一個相關的部分我相信還沒有做一個比照"},{"start":5082.971,"end":5111.153,"text":"我們在6月14號有發布一個記者會也有把相關的一些數據還有相關的一個比對年齡性的一個比對在這個當中有一些揭露這個所有的資料也會在我們後面的一些附件當中那我先首先開始先講到所以其實我們剛才在討論到現在所謂的性別平等教育還有包含CSE的一個性教育大家已經開始廣泛在討論了但我覺得其實有三個點大家要去注意到第一個"},{"start":5111.913,"end":5138.018,"text":"不是說我們去按照CSE的去做而是我們要結合臺灣文化脈絡這是一個肯定的重點第二個也很多人在提到說家庭價值觀的部分所以我相信家庭價值觀也會影響到說這個性別平等教育跟性教育的部分第三個到底是不是符合青少年的需求這三個重點我相信是一開始當中我們必須要提到的再者我們會必須"},{"start":5139.298,"end":5154.811,"text":"更快速的去制定一下本土上面的一個綱要為什麼因為它要兼具文化性跟剛才我們陳建志副教授講的公共健康的一個導向這個是必然的首先第一點性教育應該要結合本土的文化跟家庭的結構這件事情"},{"start":5155.571,"end":5178.982,"text":"剛才全教產當中的一個曾老師在講到家庭教育也很多說啊家庭教育的部分那個反映到家長的部分投訴啊各方面的一個問題那我們知道齁稍微反映一點終身教育師其實在講到家庭教育的部分其實我們都知道家庭教育其實是放在家庭級高齡教育科一年經費不足之外他又放在高齡家庭教育科那你想"},{"start":5179.522,"end":5179.782,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":5204.98,"end":5205,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5223.473,"end":5223.873,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":5243.42,"end":5269.66,"text":"也就是說其實我們的教學品質有點稱之不齊因為教師不足緣而不足的關係其實我們大部分都偏重主科需求所以其實性教育的部分大部分給體育老師甚至國因素社會自然生科生學科目的老師去做兼任這件事情已經長久以來是如此了所以我們呼籲說健康教育課程要由給專業資格的一個教師授課並強化"},{"start":5271.201,"end":5298.007,"text":"這方面的一個培訓定期做一些真人甚至專業課程的增加讓學生學到正確的一個性教育第三點在公共衛生的數據我們有提出來一個數據反映說現在青少年性病飆升的部分剛才國北教大在講到陳建志老師也講到公共健康的部分其實過去我們在性教育的部分大家可能不知道它其實是家庭生活與性教育的一個結合"},{"start":5298.807,"end":5324.965,"text":"那過去一直到現在演變成說現在家庭教育跟性教育分開了所以一直導致說其實大家對於家庭教育重視是如此第二個性教育的部分本身是公共衛生的議題但是大家也偏向說很多教育觀念的導向可是忽略了說公共衛生跟公共健康的需要所以我們這邊提出來說台灣青少年性病的一個案例持續攀升各位可能不知道"},{"start":5325.365,"end":5325.485,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":5346.254,"end":5346.574,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":5365.014,"end":5365.194,"text":"國際行動聯盟"},{"start":5384.091,"end":5407.458,"text":"由教育部跟衛福部在主導整合專家的意見甚至進階的趕快去融合家長跟學生的一個共同意見去做制定第二個推動親師生的協作模式既然我們覺得家長很多東西不好溝通那我們真的要找他一起來協作制定這些上面的過程跟課程讓他在這個教廷教育中的觀念"},{"start":5408.038,"end":5431.189,"text":"一開始最早接觸到的都是家長那讓他在這家庭觀念當中去教導這些孩子那我相信以我們的數據來看家長是很支持這方面的教育的第三個提升師資的專業性跟士林性在我們當中提到由專長授課的老師按照學生發展的階段分階段的設計小學的時候聚焦在身體的保護"},{"start":5432.349,"end":5452.378,"text":"國中深化性健康高中的時候討論在情感跟關係管理的部分第四個結合公共衛生的目標性教育應該要以降低有關性病或者這方面的一個感染率還有促進心理健康為導向融合教育跟衛福部的專業資源實現健康教育的多層的保護"},{"start":5453.098,"end":5453.498,"text":"王漢陽理事長"},{"start":5484.548,"end":5487.593,"text":"下一位是蔡企業理事長準備"},{"start":5491.963,"end":5517.372,"text":"主席好 那現場的專家跟團體代表大家早安我是立法委員張雅玲那首先呢我想要先來跟大家來討論一個非常重要的概念到底什麼叫做自我保護尤其在數位時代我們從過去一直都在告訴孩子你要好好保護好你自己到現在如果我們在數位時代還是要用這一套好好保護你自己的概念的時候會造成什麼樣子的問題"},{"start":5519.012,"end":5519.132,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5537.472,"end":5554.82,"text":"在過去不管是性教育也好或是這些身體自主權的概念也好其實都沒有得到廣泛的支持以至於在網路上面的狀況是這樣子我簡單敘述一些給大家聽就是現在很多的網路詐騙就是或者是網路的一些犯罪他們可能會引誘男性"},{"start":5555.54,"end":5555.78,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":5583.304,"end":5607.596,"text":"讓這個孩子這些男性的青少年呢飽受困擾因為他們有一個很大的煎熬在於說我是個男生欸我怎麼沒辦法保護我自己天啊我講出去可以被人笑死天啊我不能跟我爸爸媽媽講結果就變成是什麼所有的憂鬱痛苦全部自己吞下來了那他也陳述了一個數字是很高比例的男性他們走上自殺這條路"},{"start":5610.286,"end":5637.646,"text":"所以我想用這個案例來告訴大家講保護自己的這個概念是應該是我自己會認為我們應該是保護小孩吧保護小孩才是我們的責任怎麼會讓小孩保護自己是他自己的責任呢因為這就會輪入到剛剛那個縣經理他覺得他自己好像沒有做好糟糕 我覺得我可能會被爸爸媽媽罵結果最後他求助無門所以我自己會認為整個概念我們都應該要回到去強化身體自主權在沒有人經過你的同意之前"},{"start":5638.487,"end":5649.913,"text":"沒有得到同意之前沒有人可以碰觸你或是要求你做任何事情而這樣子的概念要持續的延伸到我們學校的教育裡面以及我們的數位的教育裡面"},{"start":5651.553,"end":5651.713,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":5682.133,"end":5709.482,"text":"一個很重要的但是他們真的知道如何辨識網路上的惡意嗎?他們沒有辦法欸他們雖然從小很會滑手機可是他們缺乏相對的數位隱私的意識所以呢我想在在座現場也有非常多第一現場的老師你可能常常看到他們在滑手機可能滑手機的時間超過於看書的時間那我也不想要說老師知不知道"},{"start":5710.382,"end":5713.825,"text":"教育部在2023年公布了《數位時代媒體素養教育白皮書》其中明確地指出當前的媒體素養教育三大課題"},{"start":5729.918,"end":5752.791,"text":"有三件第一個學習辨識假訊息正確使用短影音以及最後一個強化網路的各自安全我想這是不僅是台灣的問題這是全球性的問題尤其是現在AI帶來技術的飛躍有非常多的defect的訊息傳播與變形的風險都會讓我們的孩子面臨前所未有的困境與壓力"},{"start":5754.694,"end":5777.223,"text":"我其實非常多次的質詢就是要求我們的教育部應該設立對於兒少數位隱私的教育課程認知數位環境中的潛在威脅並且學會識別和防範惡意的行為我們的目標應該是要放在讓孩子在接觸網路世界時有效減少傷害以及對於家長和教育工作者提供相關的數位教育培訓"},{"start":5778.543,"end":5806.244,"text":"讓他們能夠敏感的覺察兒少面臨的風險並且提供及時的引導跟協助我必須坦白說啦過去學校在這塊教育上面其實是並沒有全面到位的包含衛福部的家庭教育也都沒有那同時呢雖然發了這個白皮書但是有告訴老師怎麼做嗎howhow是什麼其實是一無所知的就變成是讓老師們自己去發展但是很多老師是感到無所適從的"},{"start":5808.294,"end":5832.344,"text":"那上禮拜五嘛,我們有一個非常激烈的這個國會的這個爭鬥之後呢,隔天我也是去出席了跟台北市小學家養聯合會以及方班教育協會,我們一起來討問數位公民的素養如何幫孩子辨識網路的這些惡意那我們當時就問了家長,你知道你很多的孩子網路上面會參加一個聊天室嗎?大多數的家長都不知道"},{"start":5834.773,"end":5862.426,"text":"所以我覺得這其實我們在做相關的課程設計的時候應該要回到真實的情境而不是一個想像的情境像我現在我的孩子那天就跟我說媽媽我們去助理館的時候如果你們出去買東西的話我會非常緊張我說為什麼我說你們都關起來你為什麼非常緊張因為萬一陌生人來開門的時候陌生人來敲我門的時候我會非常害怕然後或者是說他就跟我說因為老師跟他們講說陌生人很可怕"},{"start":5863.564,"end":5872.952,"text":"但是大家知道嗎,大多數的犯罪案件,如果是性犯罪的話,大多數都是家內性侵"},{"start":5874.266,"end":5899.496,"text":"所以我覺得我們所有的教育課程設計都必須回應到現實環境才能夠真正的幫助我們孩子具備這樣子的能力那最後呢我想要讓大家也知道一個訊息就是說在上個禮拜的這個限訴法通過之後呢我們的憲法法庭等時同癱瘓了在國民黨跟民眾黨的聯手之下未來近十年來其實有七百名的"},{"start":5900.416,"end":5901.818,"text":"希望大家一起來關心這件事 謝謝"},{"start":5924.585,"end":5936.414,"text":"好,謝謝張雅玲立委百忙中抽空來發言那我們請下一位臺灣EDU教育協會理事長蔡啟業發言之後高孟林政策顧問請準備"},{"start":5942.852,"end":5965.241,"text":"主席發言委員以及在場各位與會先進大家早安大家好我是台灣EDU教育協會的理事長蔡企業今天非常高興能夠以學生團體的一個角度分享我們對於性平教育的一些觀察跟建議我們認為性平教育其實不僅是台面上政策的推動也關乎我們如何理解彼此然後去共創一個多元平等社會的一個重要基礎"},{"start":5966.84,"end":5991.416,"text":"那首先我想近期不管是可能建中校友會的事件或是家女的一個風波大家或許都有注意到那其實從這些事件我們可以發現首先第一個是為歧視的現象是被忽視的那大家可能缺乏性別的一個敏感度那使得學生比較無法去辨識或是辨別或是反思這類的為歧視那再來是在性別單一場域"},{"start":5992.256,"end":5997.532,"text":"像是男校或女校這樣的環境中其實性別教育的推動很容易被忽視"},{"start":5999.096,"end":6024.604,"text":"所以我們想要第一個提到的其實是關於情感教育的部分那事實上在A08課綱下的一個情感教育我們比較沒有太多的琢磨那雖然說可能有其他的相次可能會多少帶到一點但是在教學現場其實學生碰到情感教育有一部分可能甚至是停留在這個學校跟老師在這個以分手為前提這樣的一個情感教育"},{"start":6025.544,"end":6041.145,"text":"但是談回來其實不管是性別而不管你的性別是什麼那其實每個人在人生中都有可能經歷對於情感上的一個學習之路那不管是從這個心動啊、曖昧啊、告白甚至到進一步對於性的探索"},{"start":6041.605,"end":6060.827,"text":"甚至是在性感上的學習其實都是建構自我認同的一個過程所以我想我們應該要加強在教育現場的一個情感教育再來其實從建宗的這個事件我們也可以發現就是過去在性平教育上在情感教育上或許比較少提到的是男性在性別權利結構的困境"},{"start":6063.932,"end":6090.998,"text":"所以我們在課程中其實比較少觸及男性的成長經驗跟情感需求那就導致說其實男性在這樣的環境中我們是缺乏對於性平意識的一個共感因為很多學生可能覺得這些東西聽起來跟我好像沒有太多的關係那更重要的是我們可能沒有辦法給予男性在性平教育中在情感教育上的一個支持那特別是社會對於男性的角色期待還是持續的被刻畫在大家的想像裡"},{"start":6091.818,"end":6120.499,"text":"所以很多的其實男性同學在面對社會性別角色的壓力的時候其實同樣也是缺乏一個出口的所以我們覺得在性平教育中應該要增加不同性別在性別權利結構中的一個討論再來我們也希望在性平教育而不是只是停留在傳統的這樣的教授的一個形式那更應該讓議題融入教學現場達成情境式教學這樣的一個互動模式那所以"},{"start":6121.633,"end":6136.632,"text":"我們希望模擬情境設計學生可以學習怎麼樣表達情感避免在戀愛中形成控制或是壓迫再來我們也希望校園中的性別議題可能其實平常"},{"start":6137.353,"end":6154.263,"text":"過去大家可能都有經歷過這個老師會說這個男生一排女生一排但這樣傳統的分座模式是不是必要其實這些議題都是在教育現場中我們會談到的那這些東西其實也都值得學生去反思這些性別分隔的這些措施對於同儕互動的一個影響"},{"start":6156.083,"end":6179.79,"text":"希望融入多元性別經驗﹑做多元案例分析﹑理解不同性別群體的處境﹑加強同學的同理心和包容心﹑女性在職場的挑戰﹑男性在家庭中的壓力﹑包括LGBT族群的生活經歷﹑學生都應該能在教學現場學習到﹑能夠共感和尊重"},{"start":6181.205,"end":6203.951,"text":"其實剛才談到這麼多不管是情感教育也好甚至是情境式的教學模式其實這些都扣合全面性教育的意志所以我們也希望可以推動全面性的性教育特別是在全面性教育作為性平教育的一個重要基礎它涵蓋了包括性別、身體、關係、健康等不同的面向它可以補足現在課綱的一個不足"},{"start":6207.152,"end":6229.3,"text":"另外,我們也應該涵蓋包括LGBT族群的經驗,強調維旗式和敵意環境的危害,讓學生在面對日常生活中的不平等現象有能力可以作出改變。最後想要談到近年來網路匿名平台和校園環境中的性別敵意氛圍是日益的成長。"},{"start":6230,"end":6230.28,"text":"網絡性暴力與數位性別歧視"},{"start":6252.259,"end":6252.279,"text":"網絡資源"},{"start":6268.567,"end":6295.647,"text":"那我想這個性平教育其實並非一觸可及那我們不只需要政策也需要包括學生包括家長那包括老師三方去共同努力所以我們希望這樣子的一個性平教育能夠回應學生的真實需求拓畫一個更包容那更多元的時代我想其實不管你是你或是你都行其實會有人全心全意的愛你謝謝大家"},{"start":6297.301,"end":6310.29,"text":"好,謝謝蔡企業、蔡理事長的發言再來我們請全國高中學校教產公會政策顧問高孟林發言下一位李雅金請準備"},{"start":6312.474,"end":6334.349,"text":"主席關心這個議題的所有來賓以及各位教育先進大家好我是全國高級中等學校教育產業工會的政策顧問高孟林也是高中現場的老師本身任教的是公民科各位知道公民科這個科目裡面"},{"start":6335.97,"end":6336.25,"text":"強調性別平教育"},{"start":6351.809,"end":6352.11,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":6370.106,"end":6396.232,"text":"我們現在並非是欠缺性平教材而要增加性平教材我覺得是欠缺性平意識那欠缺性平意識那要怎麼加強呢我覺得除了從教材方面我覺得也要適度的引進外部資源比如說今天參與公聽會的有很多這些團體我覺得都可以來協助我們校園來加強這樣的一個性別意識"},{"start":6397.692,"end":6411.257,"text":"因為陳如我剛剛講的我們不缺的這個是性平的教材其實我今天也把高中的公民課本都有帶來然後我也在裡面標註了"},{"start":6412.822,"end":6439.732,"text":"非常多的有關於這個性別教育的一些篇章跟章節那剛剛有很多的先進都講到媒體試讀其實在我們現在的媒體試讀的章節裡面其實也有融入所謂的性別教育甚至於有講到MeToo事件在這個課程裡面也都會跟學生做一些事實的分享"},{"start":6441.152,"end":6461.753,"text":"但是我覺得我們過去在獅子培育的養成過程中比較欠缺這一塊所以現有的老師有很多其實是欠缺性平意識的而現在雖然說要加強加強可是我們現在教育現場怎麼加強"},{"start":6462.864,"end":6490.644,"text":"大部分都是可能每個學期或每個學年就是利用一次的這種性平教育的研習大概就是兩個小時、四個小時那各位知道我們在現在的性別平等教育法裡面第18條它有規範國中小的性平教育每學期至少要四個小時那高中大專是以融入課程的方式是以融入課程的方式"},{"start":6493.507,"end":6514.088,"text":"信憑法第七條第二項中央主管機關信憑會每三個月開會一次我比較好奇的是 中央主管機關指的就是教育部這個信憑會每三個月開會這一次到底發揮了哪些實際的作用跟功能我們看到校園的這個信憑通報的案件"},{"start":6515.089,"end":6534.526,"text":"越來越多 越來越多但是這個每三個月開一次會的這個新評會我不知道解決了哪些實際的一些問題所以這個是我也要來請教的那另外我想跟各位來分享實際的案例"},{"start":6537.045,"end":6561.051,"text":"因為教育現場往往是從錯誤中學習從錯誤中學習從實際的案例呢我在這邊舉出一個高雄高等行政法院高等庭110年數字第453號判決這個判決講的是什麼是一個高中的公民老師在上到這個有關於性平的課程的時候"},{"start":6562.944,"end":6588.431,"text":"他卻跟學生講說臺灣少子化的原因就是因為允許了同性結婚各位 因為有這樣的一個言論然後引起了學生的不舒服然後打1999去申訴最後這個老師被記過然後要接受性平教育這個8小時"},{"start":6592.595,"end":6619.963,"text":"這個老師後來不服提申訴甚至於提行政訴訟那最後當然是敗訴那我就從這個案例裡面找到了看看法院怎麼來說我們高中教育現場我跟各位分享他的判決理由他說本院審酌高級中等學校以下學校設置之目的在實現國民基本教育權"},{"start":6621.209,"end":6645.541,"text":"透過學校教育教導學生逐步建立自己的這個價值系統原告作為公民課程教師經由其備課及參與相關研習過程對教育佈置108學年度起逐年實施12年國民基本教育的課程綱要明定學校課程設計應適切融入包含性平教育等議題"},{"start":6646.914,"end":6670.593,"text":"其系一 性別平等教育法 性別平等政策綱領消除對婦女一切形式歧視公約施行法等教育相關法律或國家政策綱領而嚴定強調理解性別多樣性與平等信念並積極地消除性別偏見與歧視等節應叫其他"},{"start":6671.354,"end":6698.492,"text":"科的任教師更具有深刻理解其對於性別平等相關議題重有個人意見及價值觀然其作為國民教育之第一線之執行者基於教師身份在課堂上講授相關課程時仍應秉持中立的態度避免於教學過程對他人之性傾向、性別特質、性別認同有歧視及貶義之言行尤其"},{"start":6699.632,"end":6707.02,"text":"師生在校園內具有明顯權力不對等的情形更應避免前階言行對於學生造成負面影響"},{"start":6708.652,"end":6732.833,"text":"所以我覺得從這個法院的判決這個法官的判決理由就明確的解釋了我們連高中公民老師都欠缺性別意識所以我覺得從錯誤中學習教育部不妨可以整理過去很多的這些性平的案例來做這個性平教育的一些宣導以上"},{"start":6736.131,"end":6750.686,"text":"謝謝高夢玲政策顧問代表全國高中學校教產工會發言再來我們請李雅晶全國教師會副秘書長發言下一位彭志流抱歉剛剛講錯彭志流副秘書長請準備"},{"start":6753.33,"end":6777.41,"text":"主席范雲立委以及所有關心性平教育的夥伴大家早安我是全國教師會副秘書長林雅基也是一位現場的國小老師我同時擔任過多屆的教育部性平會委員目前也還是教育部性平會委員其實教育部性平會"},{"start":6779.264,"end":6804.912,"text":"跟教育部對於性平教育真的還是蠻努力的我覺得我在歷年的過程裡面其實每一次開會都開非常久我大概參與所有的委員會議沒有像性平會一樣必須開會開這麼久那但是我們都知道性平法它在93年公佈實施到今年113年它剛好20年了"},{"start":6809.534,"end":6820.144,"text":"雖然大家都很努力可是我們也必須承認一件事情對於性平意識的提升其實還有一些努力的空間在"},{"start":6820.984,"end":6848.366,"text":"好首先呢我想要提到的問題其實是跟教科書這件事有關性平教育呢他在學校是透過課程以及活動推展那雖然我們在性平法第18條的第二項第三項第四項他分別規範了國中小高中大學教育階段應該如何實施性平教育但是性平法的規範之外其實課綱"},{"start":6850.287,"end":6875.349,"text":"規範的正式課程我認為這是更重要的因為我們所有的正式課程是每一個國民在他的受教育過程裡面一定要學的內容但是在教科書開放民間編輯之後各家出版社如何呈現出課綱所規範的內容反而是非常重要的一件事但是呢"},{"start":6875.99,"end":6894.172,"text":"正因為大家剛剛在座的先進都提到一件事情性平教育的一些相關概念非常容易引起爭議那也正因為容易引起爭議各家出版社在編寫教科的時候他會做什麼事他當然會趨急必修"},{"start":6895.818,"end":6921.692,"text":"這也導致即使課綱有規範但是教科書出現的卻常常點到為止那我們如何鼓勵教科書商的編輯團隊願意花心力研究並且發展出教科書的內容中具有合一的性平教育就非常的重要這樣講大家都一直在講課綱或許需要做修正可是大家有沒有想過一件事情我們課綱在103年"},{"start":6925.178,"end":6951.553,"text":"雖然它到108年正式實施可是它事實上啟動的過程是103而且我們這一部的課綱其實花費了非常多的心血在做處理未來有沒有可能又要進行下一波的課綱的一個修正當然有可能但是如果在課綱修正之前我們可不可以另外再做一件事情就是鼓勵教科書的"},{"start":6952.754,"end":6952.774,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6983.014,"end":6996.163,"text":"鼓勵教科書的內容可不可以同步做修正與時俱進是一個非常重要的針對性平教育我們目前在教科書是不是可以鼓勵書商"},{"start":6998.064,"end":7023.365,"text":"願意修正提供一些獎勵的措施因為他們在找編輯團隊需要花費非常多的心神那或許他就不太願意那我們有沒有一些鼓勵措施讓這些教科書商可以願意然後再來遇到性平議題這件事情教科書的審議我們現在在審議的過程可能就是我認為你這個內容不對我就退回去"},{"start":7024.065,"end":7038.384,"text":"好 那我其實在這裡希望建議一件事情就是說特別針對教性平議題的審議我們是不是除了退回要他修正之外可以進一步提供諮詢意見"},{"start":7040.887,"end":7055.72,"text":"讓這個性平的意識在我們的教科書裡面可以更好更合一的完整呈現那我認為這件事情是非常重要的一件事情要有教科書其實每個人都可以"},{"start":7056.561,"end":7056.721,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":7083.425,"end":7083.725,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":7100.513,"end":7119.031,"text":"所以你就可以想像為什麼說師培課程裡面大多數的學生其實沒有辦法修習到性別課程是因為這個原因但是你如果再細看幼兒園教室以及特殊教育的師資培育的之前課程甚至都沒有規範這些教育議題好"},{"start":7120.692,"end":7143.905,"text":"所以施培課程在106年修正發布實施多年有沒有建議進一步的檢討每一項的議題大家都覺得重要我也相信這是一件大工程可是我認為這件事如果可以形成共識那我相信對我們未來性平教育在施培課程裡面的推動會更為順暢以上"},{"start":7147.062,"end":7147.822,"text":"王小涵主任"},{"start":7164.714,"end":7183.701,"text":"主席各位先進還有各位現場教育工作者大家早安然後我是台灣同志諮詢熱線協會副秘書長彭志流最後是唸流好大家都不會唸沒關係很正常很正常那就是感謝今天來這邊大家都非常關心性別平等教育然後就是也感謝昭偉在"},{"start":7184.281,"end":7212.5,"text":"邀請的時候就是在公聽會現場其實有提供了四個提綱所以我就針對四個提綱一一回應那第一個部分第一個第一題其實關於施培教育的部分那根據性別平等教育協會還有我們協會所做的兩份調查都可以發現其實小學老師其實有非常高比例其實在施資培育的階段或者是甚至在在職經修的階段都沒有機會修習過性別平等教育那我們協會做的調查也發現其實就像剛剛前面有先進提到的其實"},{"start":7213.681,"end":7217.002,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":7238.989,"end":7265.186,"text":"並且在教室的在職進修課程裡面應該要增加LGBT的相關主題的課程特別是其實目前這些在職進修課程老師們很常上課因為我聽到很多老師都在上課但是其實我們很少討論這些課程到底有什麼樣的成效所以成效評估的機制也許也應該要建立跟討論第二個部分是關於性別平等教育的內容在課綱、教科書以及教學資源上有什麼樣的問題特別是還包括"},{"start":7265.826,"end":7266.186,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會議"},{"start":7291.041,"end":7314.673,"text":"針對29歲以下的同志朋友的生命經驗去受訪裡面發現他國小到國中階段學校沒有教多元性別議題的這些比例其實高達了25.6%那如果是學校有教但是其實教正面的資訊跟教負面的資訊都有這樣的受訪者其實在20到29歲的同志朋友生命經驗中其實高達了28.9%"},{"start":7316.474,"end":7316.714,"text":"公聽會員：完整"},{"start":7346.454,"end":7346.774,"text":"公聽會議員：完整會議委員："},{"start":7374.887,"end":7398.634,"text":"國中小的課程其實應該具體按照10%課綱納入不同性傾向的內容那教育主管機關應該要督促教科書的編撰者落實課綱,真實呈現性別認同還有婚姻家庭等多元樣貌那教育主管機關也應該積極的協助讓LGBT議題納入各個教學領域之中發展可以讓教師參考的使用的教材資源還有教師案"},{"start":7400.165,"end":7400.205,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7416.284,"end":7416.885,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":7438.243,"end":7462.249,"text":"打罵教育這件事情在男孩身上其實從小就發生大家有沒有想過就是如果男孩子從小都沒有被尊重他的身體他如何理解尊重別人的身體所以其實這部分應該要更多的努力那另外一部分是目前的校園性別事件其實對於行為人理念上是以教育輔導先行但其實我們的實務今天可以發現其實很多疑似行為人特別是男孩因為"},{"start":7463.149,"end":7479.006,"text":"通常被通報的疑似行為人都是男生為多很多人在過程中都會強烈感覺到自己被懲罰那我甚至有聽過學校縣評會他的教育輔導措施決議內容是什麼要求行為人抄性別平等教育法條文好大家可以想想這是什麼齁"},{"start":7479.967,"end":7481.027,"text":"最後一題關於教育現場的性平教育還有哪些困境"},{"start":7507.917,"end":7527.692,"text":"這部分我們熱線提了非常多的建議那整體而言其實都是在回應同志學生在教育現場目前被漠視的需求那第一個部分是主管機關應該定期的做同志學生的調查因為其實我們都知道有同志學生在校園裡但是其實我們不知道他們真實校園經驗那其實很難推出相關的政策"},{"start":7528.172,"end":7528.492,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":7549.929,"end":7568.029,"text":"好 那第三個部分當然就是剛剛前面很多先進提到的其實很多教師想要推動性別平等教育他不是只是想談但身體自主權這些非常重要但他也想談一些其實讓真的回應學生的需求譬如說多元性別議題或是新教育等但其實目前不管是基層學校其實很難有"},{"start":7569.35,"end":7584.904,"text":"教育主管機關其實還沒有積極的保障這些教師如何在他的自主權下專業自主能力下推動這些性教育跟情感教育回應多元性別學生甚至是一般學生的需求常常被家長投訴這部分其實教育主管機關應該積極的思考該如何改善謝謝"},{"start":7587.677,"end":7589.18,"text":"王小寒 婦女薪資基金會創意部主任"},{"start":7950.385,"end":7952.867,"text":"婦女新知基金會創意部主任王小涵"},{"start":7969.045,"end":7996.943,"text":"主席好 各位與會的同仁大家好我們是婦女新資基金會那針對今天的議題跟提綱我們提出幾點建議首先是提綱一的有關師資培育的部分那就我們所知目前教育部師藝師他已經有在研擬18小時的性平必修課程希望說這些師資生在畢業前可以上完指定的課程並且有修過相關課程的人未來可能可以在教徵的時候可以加分這樣子的鼓勵方式"},{"start":7997.583,"end":8025.014,"text":"那針對教育部想鼓勵學生休息性平教育的部分我們是覺得值得肯定不過在對於一些政策規劃跟執行方式我們也有一些擔憂吼那就是包含說這個課程範疇以及加分機制的這兩部分首先是課程範疇我們擔心說就是這些必修課程的內容如果它過度限縮在課程設計或者是性侵性騷防治等這種面向的話"},{"start":8025.694,"end":8049.197,"text":"他可能反而會去壓縮到學生接觸一些多元性別議題的空間去培養他們基礎的性別知能還有敏感度所以另外像是這類技能面向而非基礎知能的課程如果是在學習的安排上在前階段就是講到一些比較細節的部分的話老師們可能到教學實務現場的時候也會需要重新學習"},{"start":8049.918,"end":8050.379,"text":"學習階段深化學生性別"},{"start":8067.739,"end":8067.879,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8091.591,"end":8092.592,"text":"加分機制的鼓勵方式"},{"start":8108.087,"end":8108.267,"text":"會議員：完整會議"},{"start":8123.084,"end":8141.244,"text":"所以類似這種加分機制的設計我們是建議教育部應該是要更審慎去思考它執行之後的效果而且在設計相關的鼓勵措施的時候會希望說可以都是可以真正回到精進學生性平基礎知能的需求跟學習目標"},{"start":8143.279,"end":8170.939,"text":"在提剛一的部分也有提到說要引進外部資源的部分其實現在校外資源進入學校內進行性平教育已經是教學現場正在發生的事情實際上有許多團體不管他們對於性平教育性教育或者是同志教育的認同程度是什麼他其實都已經有入校進行性平教育的狀況所以我們在這邊想進一步提出一個思考的方向說"},{"start":8172.02,"end":8199.127,"text":"性平教育在實踐上面在學校的狀況引入外部資源去補足學校量能的這種替代方案是不是現階段最該考慮的事情因為我們認為說其實教育部現在更需要解決的是學校間資源分配不均的這件事情因為像對於都會地區的學校就是除了校內性平的資源相對充沛以外他引進外部資源其實並不困難"},{"start":8199.807,"end":8223.738,"text":"但是對於像是偏鄉學校：除了校內的資源也相對缺乏之外：校外的性平資源選擇可能也有限那這些學校更有可能會因為要滿足這些開課的要求只能在有限的外部資源中去尋求協助導致這些入校的團體在性平的專業上可能會有很大的歧異跟隱憂"},{"start":8225.599,"end":8244.251,"text":"所以我們建議說教育部應該是要去進一步的更細緻的盤點學校的師資在落實性平課程的執行方式跟實際的狀況跟問題是什麼那或許就是加強數位資源去彌補城鄉間學校間的差距"},{"start":8245.231,"end":8245.792,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會議"},{"start":8265.294,"end":8293.852,"text":"所以進一步就討論到說我們提綱二有關那個課綱教科書改進的部分我們認為說就是目前性平教育課程是採課程融入的方式去教學那督促國教院去進一步檢視哪些教材已經有納入哪些性別議題那有哪些議題它其實是在課綱裡面有可是在教材裡面比較少被放入的這個或許才是教科書去實際改進的重點之一"},{"start":8294.901,"end":8295.261,"text":"提綱3.男性成長經驗"},{"start":8310.407,"end":8338.736,"text":"主持人現在其實有一些陽剛研究那我們提出這個方向是說這些陽剛的研究如果可以跟性平教育的實務去銜接或是去做進一步探討的話它或許可以發展出一個更可以跟男性對話的教案那也可以去進一步協助我們發展更多更具多元視角的性平的教案跟教材以上建議 謝謝"},{"start":8342.193,"end":8353.614,"text":"謝謝王小涵婦女薪資基金會倡議部主任的發言再來我們請羅惠群新北市諮商心理師公會理事長發言下一位是陳淑婷請準備"},{"start":8357.038,"end":8380.993,"text":"范雲主委還有我們在座的專家學者大家早安我是羅惠群心理師那首先要先感謝范雲委員還有培育委員在我們這張心理師公會全聯會推動學生輔導法修法有非常非常多的協助在此先跟兩位委員致上最高的敬意那也同時呢藉由我們"},{"start":8381.753,"end":8408.974,"text":"在學校的專輔老師第一線的輔導老師也先就因為我們有做了一些跟我們工會的學校老師去做一些討論先就這一次的這個公聽會我先把我們會員的一些訊息先帶出來那第一個部分是剛剛前面幾位先進都已經提到了無論是在我們的課綱還是在師培還是在我們的一些知能的教育"},{"start":8409.614,"end":8425.649,"text":"那基本上呢都是已經行之有年了也都很有制度但是在實務現場我目前啊發現到的是我們非常多老師啊他可能一個學期啊有非常非常多的課程要上然後呢他們可能會非常的破碎的"},{"start":8426.209,"end":8450.1,"text":"要去協助這個課綱去給孩子們各式各樣的一些知識在學校的教育裡面也不是全然只有性平教育還有現在非常多的像AI等等或我們剛剛所提到的男性相關的一些教育所以在現場裡面我們非常多的老師有跟我們反映因為我們現在很多的會員是雙師他可能有心理師也有教師的身份"},{"start":8450.68,"end":8465.197,"text":"他們就提到現在是不是也能夠請教育部去盤點一下這課綱實施以後有非常多重點的要培訓要重點要教導的一些項目是不是能夠做一些這個比例上的調整"},{"start":8466.258,"end":8486.298,"text":"如果我們要把性平教育2.0直接再放進我們現在所謂在場的食物老師裡面的工作裡面我們會擔心會真的像一個大雜燴或真的會像一個所謂的什麼餐都有但可能學生什麼餐都吃不到的一個困境所以這個可能要請教育部再幫忙去做一些調整"},{"start":8488.01,"end":8514.724,"text":"其他的部分跟前面先進都很類似我們就不贅述了我想要先提到有一個部分是我們在講到底什麼是性平教育對我們心理師來說其實每一個人都有他的差異性我反倒會比較期待的是這個性平教育也不是只有專門講性別平等也不是只有講性傾向或相關的性教育這些都很重要但這些的源頭就是差異"},{"start":8516.065,"end":8538.497,"text":"無論是二元性別、多元性別這些就是差異無論是性傾向還是各種在我們社會文化裡面的一些性的相關的一些禁忌這就叫差異我們有沒有辦法讓我們現場教學的老師、主任、校長在我們小孩裡面基本上擔任時間非常長的這些家長、阿公、阿嬤"},{"start":8539.757,"end":8562.376,"text":"然後在我們的校園裡面的各個層級這個無論是從幼兒園一路要到這個成年教育到這個社會大學每一個層級是不是都能夠去了解到底多元的差異是什麼有沒有機會去長出尊重差異這件事我要強調並不是要認同差異"},{"start":8564.495,"end":8577.913,"text":"我們沒有辦法去認同每一個人都獨一無二但我要學會我知道差異是必然的我要知道如何去尊重差異我要知道如何去跟差異相處"},{"start":8579.495,"end":8600.918,"text":"這個能力基本上我認為在一個教育環節裡面是一個非常重要的一個狀態但目前看起來可能在我們一般的教育現場可能在傳授這些知識的過程當中並沒有去教導我們的孩子如何去認識差異以及尊重甚至如何跟差異對話這個部分看起來是比較沒有的"},{"start":8601.803,"end":8615.427,"text":"好 那回到另外一個所謂男性族群的部分我本身就是剛剛前面幾位先進所講的在那個時候早期的父權文化底下長大的一系列男性那應該在這有很多跟我差不多45歲50歲左右的"},{"start":8619.417,"end":8645.719,"text":"我坦白說那個時代的男性現在要長成一個比較正常完整的樣子是有困難的為什麼我可以這樣講因為我在我大概將近15年的實務工作裡面非常非常多的男性個案他可能包裝在什麼樣的狀況裡面包裝在他跟他的伴侶的關係議題包裝在他跟他的這個老年父母的家庭議題"},{"start":8646.9,"end":8665.298,"text":"包裝在他想要成為一個好爸爸但他永遠找不到那個好爸爸應該長成什麼樣子的親子教養問題這些男性絕對不是只有在我們講的企業在講所謂的經濟在講所謂的工作上的成就而已"},{"start":8665.418,"end":8665.878,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":8682.318,"end":8682.338,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8697.799,"end":8699.1,"text":"反正我們都沒有聲音了"},{"start":8714.622,"end":8728.857,"text":"我要很直接的去跟他提醒說我們所講的性別平等不是男生好或女生好我們在講的是男性或女性或其他多元性別如何一起去對抗父權的壓力"},{"start":8729.918,"end":8757.55,"text":"但這個概念並不是那麼簡單的所謂的男性跟女性所以回到我的一個實務現場最後也跟大家做一點點的一個說明在我們現在做心理諮商的環節裡面剛剛所提到的這些男性他可能會需要的是性諮商、性治療無論是在學校或在成人教育裡面的性教育之外他也必須要能夠養成跟他的伴侶還有他的家人、小孩開始展開一些性對話"},{"start":8759.091,"end":8784.643,"text":"最後呢臺灣是一個少子化的一個國家很快我們就沒有小孩了但是在養兒育女的過程當中我簡單說生理男性生理女性在教養的階段是非常不同的如何好好的教養我們所謂的生理男性我相信也應該是教育部或者家庭教育中心應該要比較多努力的以上謝謝"},{"start":8787.049,"end":8787.53,"text":"呂佳雯"},{"start":8806.129,"end":8827.696,"text":"大家可能想說這個團體在開什麼玩笑但今天大家坐在這裡不就是因為我們大家常常聽到家長跟老師在說不會教性教育不會教性平教育嗎所以你只要上網查不會教小孩其實你很容易就可以找到我們因為我們就是提供給不同年齡層各種性平教育課程當然也包括性教育就以我自己來講"},{"start":8828.516,"end":8844.929,"text":"我自己剛剛今年我算了一下我今年幫22個家長團體20所國中小、17所幼兒園還有4場社工人員講述性平教育課程所以剛剛前面有一些前輩講到可能說我們年齡是不是國小真的需要嗎或者是國中再來做比較好但是我必須要說"},{"start":8845.689,"end":8851.132,"text":"在家長團體這邊給我們的建議大家都是覺得越小越好甚至會覺得為什麼幼兒園還沒開始做為什麼國小做得還不夠好那國中根本沒有時間做所以我們的想法都是性教育真的沒有幾歲開始的問題而是你要提供給小孩什麼樣內容的問題因為呢大家可能都覺得我們性平教育都推20年啦都已經做得夠多了吧其實內容遠遠不足要不然就不會有見終效有的那件事情發生了"},{"start":8873.365,"end":8896.096,"text":"大家對性教育都很焦躁但是沒有人知道怎麼做起我這邊就分享三個例子因為我們有一個實體的空間就是歡迎每個家長經過的人都可以帶著孩子或者是自己長輩甚至是自己來參觀各種關於性教育的知識性平繪本還有生理用品然後就有一個阿嬤帶著小孫子大概五歲左右進來參觀裡面有各種生理用品結果孫子拿起一個衛生棉條問說這是什麼"},{"start":8897.697,"end":8925.666,"text":"阿嬤就說這是吸管趕快放回去然後就馬上離開了好那另外一個狀況是我們在暑假有開性教育營隊給國小生的那我們每天都鼓勵小孩帶回一個性問題跟家長討論希望可以開啟家庭裡面的性對話可是就有一個媽媽討論就跟我們回應說她沒有辦法跟她的孩子討論性行為也沒有辦法跟她的孩子講說什麼是做愛的感覺她覺得小孩不應該了解這些所以小孩問她的時候她就覺得這是一個很誇張的狀況"},{"start":8926.886,"end":8955.494,"text":"但是其他做好性教育準備的家長覺得這一題一點都不難回答那我在這裡不跟大家講說應該怎麼回答大家可以放在心裡如果你也覺得很難回答你可以來跟我們聯絡好那最後一題就是每一次家長課程我都會被問到的我到底可以跟我的異性小孩洗澡洗到幾歲你就會發現現在的家長花很多時間經營親子關係可是他們都對於孩子進入青春期身體逐漸有變化這件事情他們是很不自在的"},{"start":8956.034,"end":8980.192,"text":"那在校園裡有比較好嗎?其實沒有,因為在體制教育裡面我們都已經知道各種關於性的髒話還有性的笑話不是到了國中才開始如果在場有,麗湖國小校長應該在對不對?一定知道性笑話、性髒話國小生講得超會、超厲害的第一年級的孩子,他們都是數位原住民喔他們就會下載女性的裸照中年級的小孩直接跟我說"},{"start":8981.173,"end":9006.922,"text":"為什麼你們這些大人都覺得那些社群廣告只要小孩子都會去按我未滿18歲他們每個人都去點我未滿18我已滿18歲那高年級的男孩都在幹嘛因為一生一平板嘛新北市服務很好所以他們就在早自習的時間分享社群漫畫一起看性影像一起看性影片那高年級的女孩已經在玩抖音了玩一些社群媒體他們就在私訊不斷的收到男性陰莖裸躁"},{"start":9007.942,"end":9029.786,"text":"這件事情他們跟家長講家長就說你刪掉就好跟老師講呢老師罵他們誰叫你們上網玩所以沒有人解答他們關於性的困惑那體制外教育真的有比較好嗎其實不然因為我們剛到體制實驗教育授課結束就會發現因為體制外教育使用3C更自由而且教師群其實對於性平教育沒有那麼理解"},{"start":9030.206,"end":9047.584,"text":"所以他們很容易把孩子之間身體的觸摸、脫褲子、互看機機、講性髒話視為孩子成長必經的過程反而沒有給他們正確的指導所以不管是實驗教育、體制內教育其實都遇到一樣的狀況就是性平教育做得不夠好然後不知道怎麼做性教育"},{"start":9048.024,"end":9067.3,"text":"可是我相信大家願意花一個早上的時間坐在這邊都是因為有一個共識就是我們都知道性平教育很重要那我們要怎麼樣讓下一代有更好的教育內容要怎麼樣改變教師跟家長對於性教育的惶恐然後對於性平教育覺得我好像沒有一個正確答案的態度呢我們就確實需要更好的方法跟論述喔"},{"start":9067.7,"end":9088.111,"text":"所以布小萌的建議我們當然知道最理想的狀況是所有當老師的人都應該上過完整的性平教育這是沒有問題的這是一個非常非常基本的概念但我們也知道目前現階段我們無法要求已經在現場的老師或者是目前的師培的階段就已經把這個納入必修因為很難那需要很長很長時間那也許我們可以先做比較簡單的修改就是考上老師後正式報到前他們必須做一個外加課程的學習因為我們至少知道"},{"start":9096.215,"end":9097.456,"text":"1.5天學習基本概念1.5天做教案演練回饋修正"},{"start":9126.796,"end":9151.799,"text":"第二部分我們就要來提醒一下教育現場要教性平教育一定要具備教學跟性平兩個專業過去20年我們做的都是把老師教會性平但是呢當你實際的去幫這些老師上課你就會發現他們都在改作文改聯絡簿改作業真的是很忙還有老師一來就趴著睡覺因為他真的很累那時數又很短有聽不一定懂就算懂了他們也直接跟我們說但是他們沒有教案可以做"},{"start":9152.099,"end":9165.925,"text":"因為畢竟他們教國語數學英文科目 廠商都有給教案 廠商還有給光碟所以他們就會想說 那教案在哪裡所以教育現場就會出現 內容不斷重複 永遠都在教性別刻板印象敷衍時數 不夠全面 而且教還可能教錯的問題喔"},{"start":9169.547,"end":9184.751,"text":"姓評專家教會教學性別所畢業的學生應該要接受教育學程的培訓讓他們有系統的進入入校的教學課綱教科書還有教學資源的話我們還是要提醒一下我們目前看到的各種做法"},{"start":9184.991,"end":9185.011,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9205.794,"end":9235.414,"text":"整套課程要適齡完整從身體到性到情感關係再到他們如何表達他們的情緒他們有沒有辦法接受彼此是不一樣的人剛剛前一位前輩講得非常非常的好我們希望不只是一整套獨立的課本或者是在某個科目裡面要有國小入幼年國中三年固定的量甚至延伸到幼兒園然後不要讓老師覺得說我教這些會引起紛爭因為我們給他的就是正確的東西那大家可以查查看喔12月21號有少女離家今年7月"},{"start":9235.754,"end":9235.994,"text":"發言委員：完整"},{"start":9255.031,"end":9255.371,"text":"翁麗淑"},{"start":9275.552,"end":9301.5,"text":"好大家早安謝謝大家今天共同為性平教育的未來而努力那我今天代表彭婉如文教基金會追求性別平等的目標站在這裡因此等一下我不會理會就是鈴聲的響起一定把話說完請大家見諒謝謝婉如基金會目前在全國就是承辦49間的公共的非營利幼兒園跟機關購的職場互助教保服務中心我們聘用了約450名的教保服務工作人員這裡面不包含除工清潔行政職員這些"},{"start":9302.84,"end":9302.9,"text":"公聽會員：完整"},{"start":9317.517,"end":9322.64,"text":"一觀點是透過家長、教保人員、園區內其他的成員跟幼兒園的互動持續的被傳遞簡單來說如果我們缺乏性別平等的視野社會當中普遍的性別刻板印象會無形的影響孩子的學習過程因為生教跟環境教育對孩子的影響比起言論的教育其實是更大的"},{"start":9338.007,"end":9357.412,"text":"以下是常見的情況比方說我們就會稱讚小女生很漂亮像公主小男生很帥氣像小王子也會去評論他們的胖跟瘦在沒有任何意識的情況底下小男生的身體也會常常會覺得被看沒有關係所以換衣服所有的男生都在櫃子的前面所有的女生都在櫃子的後面因為你們不可以被看見"},{"start":9358.252,"end":9372.508,"text":"那當然也不乏知小女生的內褲如果露出來就會立刻被提醒說這樣子羞羞臉的保護的照顧行為原內也會流傳著各種充滿性別刻板印象的繪本但是我們的老師並沒有辦法有意識的去帶孩子反思跟省思"},{"start":9373.369,"end":9395.781,"text":"當然更不用說當孩子在園區出現自衛行為的時候我們的工作人員其實是會無所事成甚至會跟孩子說這是一件不好的事情請你不要這樣子做當孩子碰觸他別人的身體的時候工作人員通常只會用禁止但沒有辦法有效的回應家長的焦慮或者是選擇將男生跟女生直接分開來睡覺的方式來處理這種過度的保護"},{"start":9396.801,"end":9409.256,"text":"對於孩子在發展的過程當中學習身體界限的這個需求其實是有妨害的因為這個時候事實上反而是積極同意概念介入跟討論的一個最佳時機那同婚法通過之後我們園區內也會有老師來問說那這兩位家長我們應該要如何稱呼他們"},{"start":9415.143,"end":9429.998,"text":"那我們能夠幫別人出櫃嗎會有相關的疑問那也缺乏對於性別事件統計數據的概念比方說家內性侵的這些數字大家可能都會以為是陌生人才會對孩子有相關的行為事實上從統計數字來說家內的比例是更高的"},{"start":9434.062,"end":9440.408,"text":"因為沒有這些議事,所以我們無法提供更適當的資源甚至對於法定的性騷擾通報的這個義務也會覺得略顯麻煩然後孩子在園區出現狀況的時候我們也通常會對於媽媽作為一個照顧的角色比較苛求因為所有孩子有事情的時候一定第一個優先就是聯繫媽媽"},{"start":9454.202,"end":9454.242,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9476.087,"end":9481.869,"text":"教育的施培課程課程從破除性別刻板印象了解積極同意的模式跟身體自主權還有月經的課程同志家庭的樣貌跨性別的多元樣貌以及如何與他們互動同時也要學習就是性別事件處理機制法規以及背後的原因經過這些課程的學習第一線工作人員給予很好的回饋他們表示他們用更正向的態度看待性這件事情"},{"start":9502.896,"end":9508.06,"text":"而且他們以前通常不太能夠跟孩子講解有關於身體器官的各種詞彙包含陰莖、睾丸、陰蒂、陰唇等那但接受了這個性教育之後他們透過練習才逐漸的有更開放的態度那行動上也才逐漸的可以就是陪伴每個孩子討論他們個別的身體界線而不是很自私跟僵化的認為"},{"start":9526.295,"end":9550.409,"text":"哪些部位就是絕對不能碰哪些部位我喜歡或不喜歡給別人碰或哪些地方一定可以給別人碰那在互動的過程當中一定採取先提問再行動的這種方式例如幫孩子擦屁股換衣服都或者是要不要穿外套一定都是先問過他的意願再來進行如果孩子拒絕我們都會尊重他的選擇同時會跟家長進行溝通我們要尊重孩子選擇的權利"},{"start":9551.71,"end":9568.448,"text":"那當我們發現孩子之間有不尊重的肢體接觸的時候工作人員會認真的觀察處理因為孩子的行為通常都是模仿的結果我們需要理解孩子行為的根本原因而不應該直接認為他在這個階段就一定會有性好奇因為這只是其中的一個可能"},{"start":9569.008,"end":9597.157,"text":"那在這個失陪的學習過程當中工作人員逐漸了解到什麼叫尊重孩子的權利理解同志家庭跟一般家庭沒有區別並能看見理解跨性別者的一個多樣性同時也更知道主要照顧者的壓力轉而請次要照顧者必須要多參與孩子的教養這些培訓不僅幫助教保人員重新檢視自己在表達情感時的身體界限還讓他們反思是不是無意當中延續了性別角色的刻板做法"},{"start":9597.677,"end":9618.365,"text":"例如小女生只能玩冰雪奇緣小男生只能玩湯姆式小火車這樣子的行為那以前小孩有任何狀況都先打電話給媽媽或者是以往很習慣男女分組的這些狀態都在性平教育的一個歷程當中逐漸的被打破但坦白說他要花非常長的時間因為他要經過非常多的反思"},{"start":9619.605,"end":9635.258,"text":"因為我們如果沒有透過這些行動打破這些性別的刻板印象其實我們都會讓孩子的發展受到限制當然教養永遠都是原所跟家庭必須要同步邁進的所以園區在有一定的量能跟知識的情況底下我們也開始辦了各種線上或實體的性別輕職教育課程透過給家長"},{"start":9639.541,"end":9653.126,"text":"兒童是具有他自己權利的這樣的意識的性平教育之外也理解家長在面對幼兒性教育所產生的焦慮我們必須要成為陪伴家長育兒當中的支持者回到性平教育2.0的邁進在我訪談多位了現場的教保服務人員我也查閱了幼兒園教師師資執前培訓課程科目及學分以及布定教保專業職能課程科目名稱及學分數我們發現現有的職前師資培訓仍有待加強"},{"start":9668.172,"end":9684.582,"text":"目前性別平等教育完全依賴有意識的單位透過在職的培訓資源來支持現場的老師們這意味老師要在繁忙的工作當中除了提高現場的教保專業能力之外還要重新的學習性別平等的概念並且依照國內專科以上學校教保相關科系認可的辦法"},{"start":9686.343,"end":9695.71,"text":"院校要提出教保專業課程規劃﹐包含課程架構﹐科目名稱﹐學分數﹐對應的專業素養﹐專業素養指標﹐跟課程核心內容﹐讓教育部審定﹐裡頭有一個專業素養指標﹐包含主要幼兒教保服務政策﹐法規及實務﹐還有說要有兒童權利公約﹐兒童權利公約施行法﹐跟兒童權利公約的一般性原則﹐等等的核心課程內容﹐建議可以納入幼兒教保概論﹐幼兒家園﹐"},{"start":9714.124,"end":9729.451,"text":"家庭跟社區還有幼兒園行政與法規的這些科目進行那這些標準也在一一三年期實施的第二週期的專科以上學校教保相關科系教保員培育的評鑑當中可以見到但我確實非常的好奇就是到底委員們看見了什麼因為所有我現場進現場的工作人員問他們有沒有這些性平相關的課程從來都是沒有的"},{"start":9739.056,"end":9748.447,"text":"因此看起來教育部似乎把人權教育當成是一個短期的議題而不是應當深入推動的核心價值我們同時也注意到根據教育部2021年修訂的《教育部補助師資培育之大學辦理精進師資素質及特色發展作業要點》"},{"start":9756.195,"end":9772.388,"text":"性別平等教育被視為特色課程而不是應該要推動的基本人權理念同樣的2020年教育部出版的《幼兒園性別平等教育的削削勢力》它把性別平等教育視為可以通過課程而達成的目標然而當刻板印象沒有有效的破除"},{"start":9772.688,"end":9772.868,"text":"公聽會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":9793.644,"end":9796.747,"text":"都會跟他個人生命經驗有深切的連結因此需要作為老師的人不斷的反思透過實踐和討論才能內化因此我們建議應該要從師資值錢的培訓開始教保服務人員才有機會真切的理解在任職之後才有能力實踐以幼兒為權力主體的師生關係"},{"start":9813.861,"end":9818.405,"text":"進一步真心認同幼兒是作為有思想和需求的個體而不是單純的被教育跟受照顧者同時我們現場也才更有能力安排提供給家長增進性別知能的能力並且可以面對家長端的各種質疑聲浪包含要不要通報這麼應該就要依法辦理的小事"},{"start":9834.139,"end":9857.696,"text":"因此我們期待教育部能進一步強化性別平等教育在幼教師資培訓當中的地位讓更多教保人員在進入職前能具備一定的性別平等素養才可以讓他們進入職場之後可以在日常生活中主動識別並回應性別相關的問題這不只是幫助孩子在性別意識上獲得平等的教育也可以為未來創造更友善的教育環境希望可以跟教育部一起努力共同培養不會成為混蛋的未來主人謝謝"},{"start":9864.143,"end":9864.784,"text":"陳培宇委員"},{"start":9886.111,"end":9906.271,"text":"台灣性別平等教育協會是一群由老師組成的團體我們的會員跟我們的理監事包含從小學、國中、高中、大學、幼兒園到社會教育各個階段的老師們然後我們這一幾年"},{"start":9907.432,"end":9908.853,"text":"全面性教育全面性教育"},{"start":9929.864,"end":9943.864,"text":"國際上的一些經驗的研討會我接下來依照我們的四個提綱來進行發言第一個關於四肢培育的部分"},{"start":9944.324,"end":9973.013,"text":"其實看到這一項 我在想說這真的進入2.0嗎就是這件事情應該是在更早之前就應該要被重視不過我還是先肯認教育部的努力因為我們可以感覺到在各個方面可以感覺到教育部對於教育現場的性平教育的重視而且我覺得這種重視其實它也慢慢的貼近了老師的需求不過我當然期待更大的突破"},{"start":9974.514,"end":9990.011,"text":"這裡有幾點建議第一個我們覺得在這個失智培育的過程多元性別弱勢性別的認識與理解感覺比較缺乏我認為這方面的理解應該要更甚於性騷擾的防治"},{"start":9990.712,"end":10015.626,"text":"然後因為如果我們把這方面做好的話其實性騷擾性侵害的方式應該是會不要而喻第二個我們會認為在這個教育的培訓上全面性教育的核心概念理清以及學會各個就是融入課程的方式用以取代以往生理衛教為主的性教育是很必要的"},{"start":10016.266,"end":10043.078,"text":"第三個 我會覺得回應上一個副主任李副主任的發言我非常的同意我覺得應該要回歸孩子的主體性所以當我們一面談性別平等教育的時候也應該要回歸到孩子他的情感的發展他各方面的發展有沒有得到充分的接納以及主體性的重視"},{"start":10045.098,"end":10068.966,"text":"以這一個面向來談到第二個面向關於課綱跟教科書教科書的層面我會認為其實我們教科書雖然已經有越來越多在108課綱上的改變我會看到在性別平等上的促進已經越來越多被看到但是還是可以感受到這個"},{"start":10070.566,"end":10071.567,"text":"全面性教育支援"},{"start":10093.716,"end":10118.85,"text":"其中以權力為基礎﹑促進性別平等教育以及以學習者為中心這樣的概念應該要好好的落實在各方面而不是簡單的八個核心概念的落實而已在我們談到這方面我就不禁要回應到我們下面提到的"},{"start":10119.75,"end":10119.91,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":10139.386,"end":10151.983,"text":"反而男性卻沒有相關的那個移動會非常的少所以呢我們也看到男孩對於情感就是脆弱情感的表達非常的缺乏"},{"start":10153.464,"end":10175.86,"text":"我常常在想我們的性別平等教育法其實是由一個陰柔的男孩開始的所以男孩的成長經驗本來就一直都是不可迴避的重點或者說重視男孩的教育其實不只是情感教育還有其他各個面向多元的性別特質性傾向性別特徵以及身體意象"},{"start":10176.661,"end":10202.01,"text":"聚焦在男孩的經驗也能夠在性別平等教育上得到更多更多的解方而這方面也會回應到我們的提幹上我們今天說到因應數位時代我會覺得在數位性別暴力方面如果有更多男孩經驗的關注以及他們各種需求的賠利也許就可以更減少網路上這些業女的仇恨言論"},{"start":10204.151,"end":10221.883,"text":"面對類似像是創意私房的犯罪模式男孩的視角跟需求也應該要被好好的重視而且事實上現在有越來越多的男孩在網路上受害男孩的網路行為以及受害模式也應該是數位性別暴力應該要思考的面向"},{"start":10223.324,"end":10244.561,"text":"回到我們現在目前教育現場實施性別平等教育的困境以及還有其他要解決的面向我會認為像我們上面提到的就是數位性別暴力性私密影響的問題我會認為應該要好好的面對網路性別友善的環境的改善"},{"start":10245.562,"end":10271.974,"text":"而不是只重在保護自己這樣子的狀況五部是要這樣子簡單的標語其實是沒有辦法回應孩子的需求我會認為應該以權力為中心而來取代保護為中心的思維然後呢關於我們應該要嚴懲網路上諺女跟仇恨言論教育部應該要納入更多的資源來收集廣泛這樣類似的資訊以及"},{"start":10273.655,"end":10273.895,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":10293.346,"end":10321.903,"text":"關於很多先進提到教材很多老師很忙其實教案真的非常的多每一年都會有非常多的教案比賽我會認為老師的性別平等意識反而應該是提升的重點如果是這樣我覺得教育部更應該要把老師各個面向各個議題要加以整合而不是落入性平教師的單打獨鬥"},{"start":10322.984,"end":10323.144,"text":"陳佩瑜委員"},{"start":10337.093,"end":10358.92,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想我要先對在場的專家學者還有很多老師先說一聲謝謝我自己過往在教育兩個男孩的時候其實養愛的非常多包含范芸老師也是養愛非常多你們提供的觀點跟素材在我陪伴我的兩個兒子身上那我今天想要先切一個比較少人提到的那我就先把它拉到前面講"},{"start":10359.74,"end":10380.425,"text":"我身為一個母親面對兩個男孩那我是家裡的主要照顧者大家可以想像喔兩個男孩的青春期的生理變化其實真的如同剛剛陳淑婷所說的其實我們早早早早早就開始準備了而這件事情它之所以重要是因為我們知道他們兩個是數位時代的小孩那他們以後進入學校之後面對同儕的環境學校的環境"},{"start":10382.805,"end":10406.904,"text":"事必會有很多我們認為非常不正確我不會說他是政治不正確我覺得他是本質上就不正確的性平言論所以我們很早就開始準備因此我想要呼應所有的性平教育真的是要越早越好不要讓他累積很多錯誤的觀念跟理解跟想像之後他會認為我們大人在說的這些比較正確的事情像是一個玩笑話所以我想要提醒目前"},{"start":10407.765,"end":10436.325,"text":"在教育部的業務分工當中其實我們有終身教育司我們也有家庭教育中心但是過往可能很多教育部的這些同仁都沒有意識到其實性平家庭教育是非常非常重要的一部分今天有其他的專家學者有提到關於家庭裡面但是他們都是在談同性教育就如同立法院翁曉琳委員在前一陣子大法官質詢當中她也一直在問大法官同性教育同性教育但我要再次強調"},{"start":10437.085,"end":10456.272,"text":"如果連立法委員翁小玲自己都搞不清楚什麼叫同性教育什麼叫性別平等教育那我們可以想像有更多小時候沒有受過相關教育訓練的家長等到他成為爸爸媽媽之後他可能真的難以想像到底我可以跟孩子談什麼而我不敢談的 我不會談的我又應該要如何求救"},{"start":10457.012,"end":10457.212,"text":"公聽會議員：完整會議員："},{"start":10469.697,"end":10469.937,"text":"網絡性剝削"},{"start":10492.984,"end":10494.305,"text":"請問你知道你下一步該怎麼做嗎?"},{"start":10510.692,"end":10511.732,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":10533.098,"end":10559.523,"text":"走在數位時代家庭教育這件事情已經是教育部過往所忽略的因為在學校端其實剛剛非常多專家學者都已經講過了所以我要再次的呼籲並且花非常多時間來談這件事情那我剛剛說我有兩個小男孩所以我自己花非常多力氣在整理這些資訊然後去理解這些事情把它劃在生活中希望可以協助他們不是只有透過閱讀不是只有透過課程也不是只有透過活動"},{"start":10560.143,"end":10560.563,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":10583.745,"end":10600.656,"text":"回過頭來看在教師端其實剛剛有非常多專家學者提到其實老師們遇到很大的困境一個是在職的教師一個是未來即將擔任的老師以非常多在職老師來說剛剛淑婷說她去上課的時候很多老師在改考卷在打科稅在"},{"start":10601.536,"end":10601.556,"text":"委員："},{"start":10622.413,"end":10647.443,"text":"或者他去參加,但是他就是拿了時數條,研習時數他就離開他如何真的認識性別平等教育這件事情我覺得是老師們現在最大的困境但我並不是要指責老師而是我們相關研習的辦法或是相關研習的規格可不可以因著老師的忙碌跟現場的困境去協助他們產生對他們有意義的研習方案我覺得這個才是我們要努力的而不是一味指責老師"},{"start":10648.263,"end":10653.014,"text":"接下來正在修師培課程的大學生們或是研究生們"},{"start":10654.315,"end":10681.91,"text":"因為性別課程目前並不是必修每次在跟司醫師討論的時候我們都知道108課綱裡面其實有非常多重要的議題包含我們辦公室一直關心的特殊教育、人權教育甚至還有身心健康的議題而我們如何把這些議題我剛剛說用一個創新的方法協助老師就算他沒有辦法入108課綱裡面的必修但是老師們到底可以如何學會這些事情去協助孩子我覺得這才是最重要的"},{"start":10682.39,"end":10706.649,"text":"那接下來比較多人忽略的是一個幼兒園的部分還有大專院校的部分我剛舉翁曉琳委員的例子就是連大人可能都搞不清楚而其實很多大專院校的教授也不見得具有性別平等的意識甚至他們在現場會做出違反性別平等意識的行為或者是很多幼兒園的教職員工因此我也希望後續我們在很多性別平等教育的部分要積極地把這個部分擴展開來"},{"start":10708.05,"end":10726.927,"text":"另外關於學生的部分我們都知道性別平等教育實施非常非常多年我必須說孩子們在知識端認知端可能學習的真的很好但也可能因為學的太好導致於他們知道怎麼樣用適當的行為剛好可以戳到人的痛處去傷害到人大家如果沒有忘記喔"},{"start":10727.888,"end":10740.22,"text":"前年的臺大學生性平委員的選舉當中就出現很多我覺得非常可惡的政見我只用可惡兩個字例如說A罩杯以下女生國防必修兩學分大四畢業單身進行結紮手術五會處男禁止報名處女強制參加"},{"start":10745.144,"end":10765.18,"text":"像這樣的言論我認為不會只有出現在台大其實有非常多的學生群體裡面都有類似的言論我必須說這些學生的政見發表或是日常生活的言論他可能是為了好玩他覺得有趣他覺得只是在開玩笑但是他沒有意識到這其實對很多人造成了傷害跟不舒服"},{"start":10765.52,"end":10765.94,"text":"數位時代．啟動性別平等教育2.0"},{"start":10786.549,"end":10809.506,"text":"其實有很多網站他們都違反性別平等意識的內容作為點擊率的換取的條件例如說網路上有人教人家怎麼專門PUA別人或者是教導約定人利用變魔術的方法去吸胸搭訕喝醉的女生公然摸胸搭訕女路人性騷擾這些行為這些行為這些影片其實造成很多孩子在"},{"start":10810.186,"end":10810.506,"text":"公聽會員：完整"},{"start":10835.23,"end":10835.49,"text":"郭育芹委員"},{"start":10863.636,"end":10884.322,"text":"各位相關部會的長官還有我們教育部的一些夥伴大家好大家早今天其實針對這個資訊爆炸的時代我們的這個性平教育的部分其實有更嚴峻的一個挑戰應該這麼說尤其是現在這個網路的流傳的訊息其實是快速而且沒有相關的一些規範的時候"},{"start":10885.382,"end":10902.757,"text":"那往往就會在學校端 比方說像我的孩子他之前其實在小五小六的時候其實學校在上資訊課的時候其實他們是一人一台iPad那在老師沒有監督的狀況之下其實剛好在高年級生正要進入青春期的狀況之下我們真的很難去掌握他們到底現場還除了資訊在上課以外"},{"start":10908.522,"end":10926.669,"text":"他們還會流傳什麼樣的一個同儕之間的一些訊息那這也是我們真的不管是老師也好或教育現場的這個教師也好或者是我們家長也是非常非常的關心那我想這個網路的台灣的網路的一個數位的性暴力我們可以發現它已經從過去是一個從個體開始轉向一個群體那麼從成人開始往下變成一些所謂的青少年跟兒童"},{"start":10936.512,"end":10936.752,"text":"教育委員"},{"start":10953.257,"end":10953.277,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10972.669,"end":10994.485,"text":"首先我們必須要思考我們是不是能夠充分的評估這個資訊時代對於所謂的性別教育的一個深遠的影響在資訊的篩選跟判斷的能力上現在在我們的社群的媒體或者網路的平台上不管是所謂的性別歧視、刻板印象或者是一些不當的言論仍然都還是存在著"},{"start":10997.767,"end":10998.948,"text":"林佩翔 言語攻擊暴力"},{"start":11021.256,"end":11044.527,"text":"喊說你回去演戲啦你不過就是一個演過戲的萬老師而已他歧視了哪兩件事情第一他歧視演員第二他歧視女性但是其實他說他其實完全不清楚其實我真的當過老師而且我的老師是袖珍藝術的老師我在當老師的時候他可能還在包尿布齁"},{"start":11045.607,"end":11070.164,"text":"所以其實我光是講到光是在立法院身為立法委員能夠在議會的殿堂當中講出這麼粗暴的一個話其實就代表它其實不是只有存在在網路資訊流通的當中它是存在在我們身邊的每一個地方那我想這些所謂的性別歧視、刻板印象還有不當的言論依舊存在著"},{"start":11070.524,"end":11098.577,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣來正視這個問題為學生能夠提供足夠的媒體素養的訓練幫助學生在第一線他收到一些網路的訊息能夠提供給他哪一些資訊是可信的哪一些資訊是錯誤是必須要被質疑的那第二就是我們的教材的內容是不是應該要有跟著時代的一個適應性來做一些更新或者是定期的一個變化"},{"start":11099.857,"end":11128.178,"text":"才能夠避免所隱含的一些所謂的性別的偏見那這些現行的課程目前到底有沒有有效的連結學生他們的生活經驗讓他們感受到所謂的性別教育的一個重要性這個也是然後再來就是再剛剛提到這些所謂的網路的資訊跟性平的一些教育它可能延伸到在學校現場有孩子受到網路上的集體被霸凌的一個狀況"},{"start":11129.179,"end":11143.653,"text":"要教他們要如何開口告訴師長這也是非常重要的一件事情我們發現現在的孩子因為他們其實不管是壓力也好或壓抑自己也好他很難在尋求幫助的同時能夠開口這件事情"},{"start":11146.596,"end":11146.916,"text":"教育委員：完整會議"},{"start":11162.122,"end":11162.382,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":11184.487,"end":11184.747,"text":"特教生性平教育"},{"start":11204.386,"end":11207.828,"text":"他們其實最缺少的就是對人際關係的一些反應跟靈敏度那也很難會去從對方的表情或者是動作去分辨對方他是不是友善或者是他是不是厭惡那甚至他自己沒有辦法可以像我們就是可以去適度的在情緒上做一些適切的表現"},{"start":11227.961,"end":11228.321,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議公聽會員：完整"},{"start":11246.408,"end":11258.335,"text":"我們的這個所謂的特教生他們在就是在成長的過程當中要如何世界的告訴他這個動作不可以喔這個動作可能叫做性騷擾這是不對的喔我們要怎麼樣去做這樣子的一個就是教導或者是牽引或者是就是引導式的一個方式那我想呢我們也很擔心就是這一群族群就是我們的一些特殊教育的孩子"},{"start":11273.704,"end":11293.457,"text":"那因為他們在平常的上課以外他也有可能會成為學校學生取笑或者是霸凌或者是言語甚至會把他引導到廁所甚至去拍一些不雅的影片在網路上散播的一個對象所以我想我們可能還要在不管是我們的這個資訊上的一些性別的教育還有我們在現場"},{"start":11299.901,"end":11302.843,"text":"謝謝郭育琴委員拜忙中特別來發言現在我們請JOY部林騰嬌次長回應"},{"start":11322.284,"end":11342.882,"text":"好 歡迎召委還有我們各位委員在座的各位團體代表以及各位學習專家首先非常謝謝我們歡迎委員特別召開今天的一個公聽會今天總共有18人次的一個發言包含了我們四會委員的一個指導還有包含了14位的團體代表跟學習專家針對性別平等教育實施20年來"},{"start":11349.187,"end":11349.207,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11368.729,"end":11368.969,"text":"新北平等教育法"},{"start":11386.195,"end":11400.931,"text":"今年剛好滿20年確實不可諱言的新別平等教育雖然14、20年有一定的成效也有一定的基礎不過教育的工作本來就是沒有最好只有更好"},{"start":11401.371,"end":11401.491,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11421.263,"end":11437.823,"text":"針對今天的四個討論提綱以及大家所提供的這些寶貴意見的部分因為時間有限我大概沒辦法一一做一個回應我大概就幾個比較主要的部分來做一些重點的回應跟說明第一個的部分有關失陪的這個"},{"start":11438.624,"end":11440.466,"text":"國小教育學程要具備40個學分國中必須具備26個學分"},{"start":11453.801,"end":11454.041,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":11474.759,"end":11474.779,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11505.32,"end":11523.138,"text":"教師的專業希望能夠來適切融入的性別平等教育課程同時也配合108課綱19項的議題這麼多的情況之下也要求各四北大學要用專題式的課程還有主題式的課程跟融入式的課程等學問課程的方式在這個專業課程中來開設同時鼓勵師資深來這個學習"},{"start":11528.363,"end":11537.354,"text":"教育部每年也掌握到各師培大學性別平等教育議題開設的情形以112學員度為例,49個師培大學有開設教育專業課程的部分,包括18個學校用性平專體式課程開設"},{"start":11547.665,"end":11569.419,"text":"有四十三個學校﹑五十九個系所﹑用教育議題專題方式進行有二十個學校﹑開設一百五十門課程﹑用其他主題式方式處理也有四十個學校﹑開設六百二十三門課﹑用性平融入課程方式處理"},{"start":11570.64,"end":11570.76,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":11589.404,"end":11589.524,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":11611.335,"end":11611.355,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11627.146,"end":11651.882,"text":"初任教師在進入到職場之前都能有基本性別平等教育的概念至於進入到職場之後成為在職的教師在職的教師本來就已經會有在職的一些相關的課程、訓練、研習教師是一輩子的工作所以在成為教師之後後續相關的課程、教學跟研習尤其在性平等的部分我們也都會持續來做一個辦理"},{"start":11653.183,"end":11653.203,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11671.852,"end":11672.152,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":11696.725,"end":11712.736,"text":"第三個的部分,大家剛剛也特別提到了第三個議題有關台灣男性成長過程當中確實我們在性別平等教育的議題裡面比較沒有去聚焦男性成長或者是做錯的經驗"},{"start":11714.578,"end":11727.513,"text":"同時對於男性社會角色的壓力這個部分這個確實可能也是我們未來在實施性別平等教育來關注的一個重點"},{"start":11728.834,"end":11728.994,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":11746.337,"end":11746.637,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11764.968,"end":11766.669,"text":"教育部會作為教師教學的相關後盾"},{"start":11785.16,"end":11795.392,"text":"會做一些適當的一個澄清對於未來具體的支持教師不受歪例的部分剛剛也有提到建議未來是不是能夠訂定相關的指引"},{"start":11799.116,"end":11799.176,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":11819.558,"end":11831.031,"text":"另外的話針對今天的一個主題特別提到有關這個數位時代的這個相關的一個議題確實數位時代裡面在網路上面有很多的相關的一個資訊針對這些數位時代裡面"},{"start":11834.895,"end":11843.919,"text":"包括網路上可能充滿了一些錯誤的訊息、錯假的訊息或者是網路上抵抗的這些議題的部分未來我們也會加強數位時代有關教師的智能相關提升讓教師也能夠具備相關的智能"},{"start":11861.306,"end":11880.898,"text":"這個部分基本上我也稍微補充說明一下事實上國教署也在今年的部分也依據行政院所函班的性別平等教育的重要議題那從111學年度起呢定期針對18歲以下的學生就數位性別平等數位性別暴力的議題的認知進行問卷的調查同時針對這個問卷調查的結果呢"},{"start":11885.22,"end":11885.48,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":11907.178,"end":11935.511,"text":"以貼近時代趨勢與學生成長經驗來發展宣導性的教材另外關心有關家長的部分國教署在今年的9月16日也特別召開相關會議尤其針對數位網路性別暴力還有包含兒少性剝削的防治性別與家庭包含多元文化價值、多元性別差異還有情感教育這三個三項也列為國教署對家長推動性別平等教育的相關主題"},{"start":11936.411,"end":11943.936,"text":"這個部分我們會持續結合相關團體以及家長共同來做一個推動那另外的話"},{"start":11947.481,"end":11973.259,"text":"剛剛也有一個建議的部分就是說性別平等教育法第三條的部分未及於家長適用的範圍的部分未來將來修法的部分是不是能夠納入作為性平規範的對象我想這個意見我們也列為將來如果有修法的時候作為一個參考另外的話在意見裡面大概也有反映到就是說是不是也能夠啟動或者是進行性別議題相關的教學研究"},{"start":11975.341,"end":11991.103,"text":"這個部分我們都會持續在做一些的辦理包括過去的性別主流化以及我們大概定期都會做一些性別相關調查的部分我想這個部分我們也都會持續來做一些的辦理也讓性別的相關的實證研究作為未來我們的政策上的參考"},{"start":11992.044,"end":12016.821,"text":"最後的話就是針對這個也特別提到了是不是能夠公私部門一起大家合作營造多元包容的成長環境同時也有建議是不是能夠跟公共衛生這個主管單位包含衛護部等等的部分那麼一起來這個合作我想這個過去我們大家都有持續在合作未來的部分我們會朝這個部分來做一些持續跟努力以上大概因為時間關係大家做以上的回應"},{"start":12017.481,"end":12039.598,"text":"再一次的謝謝范委員的一個召集也謝謝各位委員還有各位團體學者專家提供寶貴的意見我想性平的工作是必須要持續努力的工作也必須靠大家一起來持續各位寶貴的意見都會作為教育部的參考也期待我們教養團體以及我們各位團體代表以及學者專家一起跟教育部一起來努力讓我們性平的工作能夠越做越好謝謝各位 謝謝大家 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大家早今天其實針對這個資訊爆炸的時代我們的這個性平教育的部分其實有更嚴峻的一個挑戰應該這麼說尤其是現在這個網路的流傳的訊息其實是快速而且沒有相關的一些規範的時候"},{"start":27.566,"end":27.666,"text":"郭昱晴議員"},{"start":50.703,"end":77.8,"text":"他們還會流傳什麼樣的一個同儕之間的一些訊息那這也是我們真的不管是老師也好或教育現場的這個教師也好或者是我們家長也是非常非常的關心那我想這個網路的台灣的網路的一個數位的性暴力我們可以發現它已經從過去是一個從個體開始轉向一個群體那麼從成人開始往下變成一些所謂的青少年跟兒童"},{"start":78.701,"end":85.709,"text":"教育委員數位的暴力通報案件數更是不斷地在成長當中那也就是因為現在的網路資訊發達流通資訊更快所以它的樣態就會更多所以我剛剛就在講說在資訊爆炸的這個時代我們的性別"},{"start":95.401,"end":95.741,"text":"公聽會：郭昱晴"},{"start":114.853,"end":136.689,"text":"首先我們必須要去思考我們是不是能夠充分的評估這個資訊時代對於所謂的性別教育的一個深遠的一個影響在資訊的一個篩選跟判斷的能力上現在在我們的社群的媒體或者網路的平台上不管是這個所謂的性別歧視、刻板印象或者是一些不當的言論仍然都還是存在著"},{"start":139.411,"end":139.971,"text":"林佩翔"},{"start":163.437,"end":186.732,"text":"喊說你回去演戲啦你不過就是一個演過戲的萬老師而已他歧視了哪兩件事情第一他歧視演員第二他歧視女性但是其實他說他其實完全不清楚其實我真的當過老師而且我的老師是袖珍藝術的老師我在當老師的時候他可能還在包尿布齁"},{"start":187.492,"end":212.342,"text":"那所以其實我光是講到在光是在立法院身為立法委員能夠在議會的殿堂當中講出這麼粗暴的一個話其實就代表他其實不是只有存在在網路資訊流通的當中他是存在在我們身邊的每一個地方那我想這些所謂的性別歧視刻板印象還有不當的言論依舊存在著"},{"start":212.702,"end":212.842,"text":"郭昱晴"},{"start":242.817,"end":245.059,"text":"網絡資訊與性平教育可能延伸到在學校現場有孩子受到網絡上的集體被霸凌的狀況"},{"start":271.354,"end":285.819,"text":"要教他們要如何開口告訴師長這也是非常重要的一件事情我們發現現在的孩子因為他們其實不管是壓力也好或壓抑自己也好他很難在尋求幫助的同時能夠開口這件事情"},{"start":288.88,"end":289.12,"text":"教育委員：郭昱晴"},{"start":304.306,"end":304.806,"text":"公聽會員：郭昱晴公聽會員：郭昱晴"},{"start":326.739,"end":326.939,"text":"特教生性平教育"},{"start":346.574,"end":368.784,"text":"他們其實最缺少的就是對人際關係的一些反應跟靈敏度那也很難會去從對方的表情或者是動作去分辨對方他是不是友善或者是他是不是厭惡那甚至他自己沒有辦法可以像我們就是可以去適度的在情緒上做一些適切的表現"},{"start":370.305,"end":370.405,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":388.59,"end":392.472,"text":"我們的這個所謂的特教生他們在就是在成長的過程當中要如何世界的告訴他這個動作不可以喔這個動作可能叫做性騷擾這是不對的喔我們要怎麼樣去做這樣子的一個就是教導或者是牽引或者是就是引導式的一個方式那我想呢我們也很擔心就是這一群族群就是我們的一些特殊教育的孩子"},{"start":415.882,"end":416.822,"text":"公聽會：郭昱晴公聽會：郭昱晴"},{"start":442.108,"end":442.828,"text":"郭昱晴委員"}]}},{"id":"158357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98682249ed08afe10c108faf295b3adfb315d69c0b6ad2f3db3309862b0372d3b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:22:31 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謝謝主席那我想我要先對在場的專家學者還有很多老師先說一聲謝謝我自己過往在教育兩個男孩的時候其實養愛的非常多包含范雲老師也是養愛非常多你們提供的觀點跟素材在我陪伴我的兩個兒子身上那我今天想要先切一個比較少人提到的那我就先把它拉到前面講"},{"start":26.425,"end":44.193,"text":"我身為一個母親面對兩個男孩我是家裡的主要照顧者大家可以想像兩個男孩的青春期的生理變化其實真的如同剛剛陳淑婷所說的其實我們早早就開始準備了而這件事情它之所以重要是因為我們知道他們兩個是數位時代的小孩他們以後進入學校之後面對同儕的環境學校的環境"},{"start":49.495,"end":73.233,"text":"施必會有很多我們認為非常不正確我不會說他是政治不正確我覺得他是本質上就不正確的性平言論所以我們很早就開始準備因此我想要呼應所有的性平教育真的是要越早越好不要讓他累積很多錯誤的觀念跟理解跟想像之後他會認為我們大人在說的這些比較正確的事情像是一個玩笑話所以我想要提醒目前"},{"start":74.454,"end":102.996,"text":"在教育部的業務分工當中其實我們有終身教育司我們也有家庭教育中心但是過往可能很多教育部的這些同仁都沒有意識到其實性平家庭教育是非常非常重要的一部分今天有其他的專家學者有提到關於家庭裡面但是他們都是在談同性教育就如同立法院翁曉琳委員在前一陣子大法官質詢當中她也一直在問大法官同性教育同性教育但我要再次強調"},{"start":103.777,"end":104.117,"text":"立法委員翁曉琳"},{"start":123.724,"end":124.545,"text":"教育部的家庭教育"},{"start":136.127,"end":158.533,"text":"前一陣子我有一個非常好 要好的朋友他的太太哭著打電話給我說他前兩天陪他女兒去警察局報案發生了什麼事情就是網路性剝削而那個孩子不過就是因為玩了數位遊戲而且他還在爸爸媽媽控管的時間裡面玩還不是深夜或者是在爸媽看不到的時候然後就被網路上不當的騷擾"},{"start":159.693,"end":161.014,"text":"請問你知道你下一步該怎麼做嗎"},{"start":177.381,"end":177.541,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":199.804,"end":228.167,"text":"走在數位時代家庭教育這件事情已經是教育部過往所忽略的因為在學校端其實剛剛非常多專家學者都已經講過了所以我要再次的呼籲並且花非常多時間來談這件事情那我剛剛說我有兩個小男孩所以我自己花非常多力氣在整理這些資訊然後去理解這些事情把它劃在生活中希望可以協助他們不是只有透過閱讀不是只有透過課程也不是只有透過活動他如何在日常生活中"},{"start":228.587,"end":228.767,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":250.057,"end":250.097,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":268.263,"end":268.423,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":289.102,"end":315.138,"text":"或者他去參加但是他就是拿了時數條研習時數他就離開他如何真的認識性別平等教育這件事情我覺得是老師們現在最大的困境但我並不是要指責老師而是我們相關研習的辦法或是相關研習的規格可不可以因著老師的忙碌跟現場的困境去協助他們產生對他們有意義的研習方案我覺得這個才是我們要努力的而不是一味指責老師接下來"},{"start":315.678,"end":319.705,"text":"正在修師培課程的大學生們或是研究生們"},{"start":321.004,"end":348.591,"text":"因為性別課程目前並不是必修每次在跟司醫師討論的時候我們都知道108課綱裡面其實有非常多重要的議題包含我們辦公室一直關心的特殊教育、人權教育甚至還有身心健康的議題而我們如何把這些議題我剛剛說用一個創新的方法協助老師就算他沒有辦法入108課綱裡面的必修但是老師們到底可以如何學會這些事情去協助孩子我覺得這才是最重要的"},{"start":351.592,"end":373.339,"text":"幼兒園和大專院校的教授也不見得具有性別平等的意識甚至他們在現場會做出違反性別平等意識的行為或者是很多幼兒園的教職員工因此我也希望後續我們在很多性別平等教育的部分要積極地把這個部分擴展開來"},{"start":375.039,"end":393.499,"text":"學生方面,我們都知道性別平等教育實施非常非常多年我必須說孩子們在知識端認知端可能學習的真的很好但也可能因為學的太好導致於他們知道怎麼樣用適當的行為剛好可以戳到人的痛處去傷害到人大家如果沒有忘記喔"},{"start":394.56,"end":394.6,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":415.438,"end":415.558,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":438.012,"end":439.493,"text":"公聽會：陳培瑜公聽會：陳培瑜公聽會：陳培瑜"},{"start":461.423,"end":476.195,"text":"網路上有人教人家怎麼專門PUA別人或者是教導約定人利用變魔術的方法去吸胸搭訕喝醉的女生公然摸胸搭訕女路人性騷擾這些行為這些行為這些影片其實造成很多孩子在"},{"start":476.875,"end":477.195,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":504.514,"end":504.654,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"16406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16406","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbf4489611fe8f3d2907777c324b69055f6d1319bf84c91682e575580cf64c906f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(處理)【12月23日、12月25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-23T08:31:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-23T11:21:00+08:00","duration":10174,"影片長度":"02:49:34","委員發言時間":"08:31:26 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3%委員鄭振淺等提案第7案凍結20%委員張家俊等提案第8案凍結718000元委員鄭天才等提案第9案凍結1 10%委員蔡易瑜等提案第10案凍結50萬元委員邱志偉等提案"},{"start":2600.736,"end":2605.22,"text":"第11案凍結5%委員蕭一鳳等提案、第12案凍結5%委員蕭一鳳等提案、第13案凍結5%委員邱瑞穎等提案、第14案第13集產業獨佔結合及聯合行為之調查處理"},{"start":2616.621,"end":2628.525,"text":"簡略15萬元委員章齊凱等提案。第15案凍結100萬元委員陳昌明等提案。第16案凍結100萬元委員鄭振淺等提案。第17案凍結100萬元委員李玉琳等提案。第18案凍結1%委員陳亭飛等提案。第19案凍結20萬元委員章齊凱等提案。第20案第二級產業獨占結合及聯合行為之調查處理簡略50萬元委員章齊凱等提案。"},{"start":2643.274,"end":2656.024,"text":"第21案不公平競爭行為調查處理及多層次傳銷管理檢列50萬元凍結50萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案。第22案檢列10萬元委員陳廷飛等提案。第23案全數凍結委員鄭天才等提案。第24案凍結100萬元委員陳超明等提案。"},{"start":2663.888,"end":2671.116,"text":"第25案凍結80萬元委員呂玉玲等提案,第26案凍結1⅓委員鄭振淺等提案,第27案凍結50萬元委員邱志偉等提案,第28案凍結20%委員張家俊等提案,第29案凍結1⅓委員蔡奕宇等提案,第30案凍結5%委員謝一鳳等提案"},{"start":2684.5,"end":2693.718,"text":"第31案凍結5%委員缺營等提案第32案凍結3%委員呈停費等提案第33案法務及行政救濟業務"},{"start":2695.066,"end":2703.33,"text":"動輒50萬元委員呂玉玲等提案第34案動輒20%委員張家俊等提案第35案動輒5%委員賴瑞榮等提案第36案綜合規劃及宣導業務檢列100萬元委員張祺凱等提案第37案檢列50萬元動輒5%委員賴瑞榮等提案第38案檢列10%委員楊瓊英等提案第39案檢列1萬元動輒5%委員陳廷飛等提案"},{"start":2721.818,"end":2735.628,"text":"第40案凍結50萬元委員呂玉玲等提案第41案凍結20%委員張家俊等提案第42案凍結20萬元委員邱志偉等提案第43案凍結5%委員邱瑩等提案第44案凍結100萬元委員陳超明等提案第45案凍結三分之一委員鄭振淺等提案第46案凍結十分之一委員蔡易宇等提案第47案凍結20萬1千元委員鄭天才等提案第48案"},{"start":2751.738,"end":2758.442,"text":"政策擬定及國際交流業務檢列100萬元凍結5%委員賴瑞榮等提案第49案凍結5%委員謝一鳳等提案第50案業務費向下一般事務費向下舉辦國際競爭網絡研討會等相關費用全數凍結委員張家俊等提案第51案資訊業務及經濟分析產業資料管理"},{"start":2775.663,"end":2781.669,"text":"檢列10%委員楊瓊怡等提案。第52案檢列50萬元凍結5%委員賴瑞榮等提案。第53案凍結1%委員鄭振淺等提案。第54案凍結20%委員張家俊等提案。第55案凍結100萬元委員李玉玲等提案。第56案凍結1%委員蔡依瑜等提案。"},{"start":2795.458,"end":2798.924,"text":"第57案凍結50萬元委員邱志偉等提案第58案凍結45萬7千元委員鄭天才等提案第59案至66案為主決議請參閱"},{"start":2806.294,"end":2816.437,"text":"反托拉斯基金預算提案部分第67案強化反托拉斯執法計畫檢列150萬元凍結5%委員賴瑞榮等提案第68案凍結2000萬元委員張祺凱等提案第69案凍結500萬元委員呂玉玲等提案第70案凍結5%委員邱瑩等提案"},{"start":2825.74,"end":2843.897,"text":"第71案服務費用向下媒體政策及業務宣導費凍結25%委員張家俊等提案第72案會費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費向下捐助補助與獎助凍結25%委員張家俊等提案第73案"},{"start":2845.326,"end":2852.812,"text":"數位經濟競爭政策研究及倡議計畫簡略237萬元委員鄭天才等提案第74案簡略50萬元凍結5%委員賴瑞榮等提案第75案簡略50萬元委員陳廷飛等提案第76案凍結25%委員張家俊等提案第77案凍結5%委員邱瑩穎等提案"},{"start":2866.003,"end":2877.347,"text":"第78案,凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案。第79案,數位匯流新時代之不實廣告及不動產查查計畫凍結100萬元委員陳昌明等提案。第80案,凍結100萬元委員呂玉玲等提案。第81案至85案為主決議。請參閱。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2889.431,"end":2911.959,"text":"好,我們在場委員已經有三位我們來確定議事錄請問在場的同仁上次會議議事錄有錯誤?好,沒有,我們議事錄確定那我們先介紹在場的委員謝一鳳委員鄭天才委員張祺凱委員還有今天公平會的我們的李竺偉那我們現在就開始來協商"},{"start":2917.074,"end":2926.02,"text":"行政院主計總署公務預算的專門委員黃小娟委員基金預算處的王佩珊科長"},{"start":2943.511,"end":2962.308,"text":"好那現在開始我們就來審查114年度公平交易委員會的預算提案那先到先來審查我們的稅務部分在第一項這個第一幕我們先請鄭天才委員先說明好那先請我們主委說明"},{"start":2978.308,"end":2994.34,"text":"主席、各位委員還有各位女士先生大家早安第一幕是稅入收入公平會主要的稅入收入來源是執行違法行為的罰款收入今年我們的編列數是1億1100多萬請委員支持"},{"start":3002.483,"end":3027.074,"text":"好 那個主委旁邊也準備高腳印你可以坐著休息 那我們鄭委員鄭委員我請教一個事請鄭委員我一直在關心那個台電去買那個民間電廠店那個壟斷行為後來你不是打官司贏了嘛對不對是那個錢什麼時候會回來"},{"start":3028.955,"end":3053.925,"text":"那個還在行政訴訟當中,要整個判決確定之後,罰款金額才會來。他有先繳進來,但是就是說這筆錢如果確定了以後才會編入決算數。那我們罰的這些錢已經都有繳來。現在繳多少錢?他們繳多少?60億左右,61,就是我們的處分的罰款。處分,那他什麼時候定案錢會進來?現在還在訴訟當中。現在到什麼階段?"},{"start":3059.898,"end":3077.165,"text":"在這個跟審 這個來來回回有繼續跟審 是你預計大概什麼時候這個案子可以可以最後的這個定案把錢要回來我們盡量要打贏這個官司但是最終的結果我們還是要看法院怎麼判"},{"start":3077.93,"end":3094.894,"text":"這個很重要,這對國會很重要,你看你一年編的才1億1895萬欸那個60億欸那個我們就是每年會看每一次收入的這個罰款的情形現在照我們的那個司法的進行方式,這個更來更去的話還要更好幾年對不對"},{"start":3096.124,"end":3114.549,"text":"是啊,就訴訟的進度要看當事人供給防疫的狀況。對啊,那這樣公平會的功能就沒有彰顯了,不是很可惜嗎?因為整個已經在訴訟當中,我們在訴訟中也是有希望法院能夠進訴,就是說能夠審結,那我們已經很"},{"start":3116.65,"end":3117.77,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算"},{"start":3147.595,"end":3153.728,"text":"現在在高院還在審理當中基本上是我細節請我們處長說明一下"},{"start":3156.963,"end":3179.513,"text":"發言委員齁 那個案子現在實體的部分已經確定就是確定有聯合行為但是那個罰款的那個額度啊因為這個案子的額度是比較高沒有錯所以法院還是比較謹慎那當事人其實他們其實也花蠻多時間去打這個訴訟去建議去主張說那個額度的部分是不是應該要再往下降那我們當然就是捍衛我們本來的一個立場這樣"},{"start":3180.433,"end":3186.94,"text":"就是現在你很確定他是壟斷行為嗎?就是事實行為我們贏了,但是發多少錢就沒有這一點。 發多少錢現在還在討論,光是這個金額已經討論多久了?"},{"start":3192.564,"end":3219.193,"text":"這個案子其實來來回回反覆的訴訟從這個案子一開始被我們處分到現在法環的額度都一直在爭執對 所以我今天在講嘛就是說人民對人民跟立法院對公平會有期待嘛那就希望說你們已經窮盡方法了結果這個事情還一直在拖延你們有什麼方式讓它可以盡快一個是速度嘛一個是你們的積極面嘛好不好"},{"start":3221.784,"end":3249.342,"text":"就是在訴訟當中我們也會積極再跟法院如果能夠協調找一點結案但是因為這案子當事人也很多有9個當事人所以會花比較多時間訴訟主委我再提醒一個點就是這個事情你如果處理的不是沒有處理你處理的不過沒有個結果的話那有人看你嗎民進黨解決的時候你是沒有牙齒的老虎啊"},{"start":3249.902,"end":3277.492,"text":"你已經動手了 對不對 你已經告他了 對不對 那本來十指你都贏了 對不對 就為了一個錢 閒在那裡 阿我那明天一直在看 醫藥公平會的裁決 我就把你告成你來挖就好了 那都拖延在那裡阿 那不是表示公平會的功能是不髒了嗎 所以要想辦法啦 對不對 我講其實該怪的兩個 對不對 時間點怎麼樣去競爭去爭取到 第一個你的力道要強化 是是是 我們也窮居我們這個攻擊防疫 好現在再請聖天才委員"},{"start":3279.67,"end":3300.303,"text":"再說明一下就是說這個第一審的判決一審判決剛才這個我們延續剛才的案子一審的判決這個現在是罰的金額跟一審判決所判的落差多少然後"},{"start":3301.752,"end":3306.835,"text":"後來是你們上訴還是他們上訴還是兩邊都上訴然後這個上訴到現在"},{"start":3313.858,"end":3337.675,"text":"這個案子當初在來來回回的過程被法院撤銷的時候法院其實不會判說多少額度法院只是說你們要再斟酌所以那個部分他當時因為在涉及到舊法的時候所以要拆成兩個部分他比較麻煩的拆成兩個部分那實體的部分就是已經確定了然後那時候針對那個罰款額度的部分他又再去打訴願那時候是有可以經過訴願程序的"},{"start":3338.195,"end":3365.081,"text":"現在跑到那個法院的階段實體部分竟然已經確定了那就大家不要再去爭執聯合行為的存在但是就那個額度因為我們當初在罰這個案子的時候考慮到他的這個影響比較重大所以我們罰款的額度是比較高我們是盡力的在捍衛這個整個競爭秩序但法院的想法是說因為你罰的比較高所以我們應該要從嚴來去審查那個所以其實不是說我們本會沒有去捍衛我們的立場或者是"},{"start":3365.581,"end":3387.718,"text":"努力的去維護這個競爭秩序我們的想法跟法院的想法反而是不一樣的法院的覺得說法那麼高所以我就從嚴審這是為什麼這個案子一直拖到現在還是沒有辦法結束的原因最近才剛今年的時候才剛他們又在針對那個額度的部分又重新的在開庭我聽你講我發現一個很嚴重的問題"},{"start":3394.5,"end":3417.517,"text":"法院跟法院在講說法那麼高他從台電賺的錢更多欸應該是他賺我們賺台電跟賺我們的錢更多欸對不對他壟斷行為然後該給台電的不給對不對該降價的不降阿損害是我們全民欸而且算起來我應該不止60億啊搞不好上百億欸所以你們一開始你們提的是90嘛對不對哈"},{"start":3420.236,"end":3438.045,"text":"你們提60所以兩個點嘛一個法院認為太高你跟他說其實沒有相關還太低對不對那時候第一個他是壟斷行為阿第二個是本來他本來就應該這樣而且他自己都答應了嘛他等於是騙台電騙我們全民阿因為我們拿人民的錢去補阿"},{"start":3439.5,"end":3459.854,"text":"你要跟法官講清楚現在就是說訴訟實務上是這樣有違法行為這個法院沒有意見但是我們法很高那通常法很高法院就說你為什麼法這麼高你怎麼算的這個算法有時候他認同有時候不認同就請我們針對法環的顧問我算給他看他被當事人另外店長他也會有意見你這個算的這裡有問題前後法的適用有問題"},{"start":3470.303,"end":3480.683,"text":"現在兩邊在公訪嘛,你們代表公平會同時也代表全民嘛,所以我也要求台電自己要比較積極的啊。 台電被扣掉,全民被欺負了嘛。"},{"start":3483.191,"end":3511.519,"text":"所以每每兩個點一個要讓法官很清楚知道第一個不是說你單純看那個結對值什麼60億這60億我認為太低啦第二個更精準第二個要做的你要很精準跟台電講清楚他到底損害了多少錢因為這是人民每一分錢都人民的啊你都已經確定他是壟斷了對不對那他造成的損害事實上是比這60億還要更大你要把這60億提出來啦好不好不要弄到後來金額又降下來我覺得60億真的太少了啦"},{"start":3512.23,"end":3514.491,"text":"好嗎?好,OK"},{"start":3529.741,"end":3550.084,"text":"第一案我們就預算照列然後鄭委員的提案我們就改成主決議他已經呈上來了好那接下來我們處理稅出部分在第二案第一幕請張委員這部分公平委員來說明過這個可以改成主決議沒有問題"},{"start":3551.894,"end":3576.796,"text":"我們第二案改成主決議接下來第三案第一幕張委員的案子我們就第三案是張家俊委員的另外一個張委員那張家俊委員的案子就照列接下來第四案對不起"},{"start":3579.039,"end":3588.931,"text":"那個張委員是同意 你在這裏講你照列啦 那主席宣布照列 主委你要說什麼"},{"start":3592.219,"end":3617.643,"text":"你是不是要照列就對了?主委 照列了都已經說通過了啦主委 如果你們有去找我們所有經濟的委員提案的委員去做說明有任何更動你要在我們審查這個案子之前送上來就不要耽誤我們的時間那現在第三案你們有沒有去溝通過?溝通過了溝通過他張委員怎麼回答?"},{"start":3620.217,"end":3642.892,"text":"因為這個案子是羅智強委員的提案所以他本來是要就是特殊會的部分那現在同意同意照列嗎改成主決議那要送上來所以你們事先送上來好不好對是"},{"start":3646.201,"end":3672.039,"text":"雖然說其他委員會的委員有提案但是還是以我們本委員會的委員的提案為主所以你要先送上來我剛剛問你的時候你就說他已經改成主決議了主決議送上來有沒有簽名有好第三案我們的預算照列張家俊委員的提案改成主決議接下來我們要審查的是"},{"start":3674.315,"end":3689.828,"text":"第2目的第4案到第13案我們先請主委說明跟委員報告第4案到第20案其實都是同一個科目先"},{"start":3692.401,"end":3719.567,"text":"我們議事人員都已經編排好了他們就說先處理到13案我們就先到13案好不好沒有問題那第4案到13案我們主要是在處理限制競爭行為的調查處理那細部來看就是我們查處聯合行為獨佔不正競爭還有結合案這一些執法行為所需要的費用這個目的是要維持台灣的競爭力"},{"start":3722.711,"end":3745.034,"text":"先請陳廷飛委員這個部分其實是在我的後面啦因為我本來也以為說是2到20那你先處理待會我到我的18我在發言好請邱志偉召委這個我第10案的部分第10案我改成主決議"},{"start":3749.738,"end":3751.559,"text":"第10案改成主決議蕭玉鳳委員"},{"start":3771.153,"end":3796.864,"text":"還有一個問題就在於說那個Uber Eats是美國的公司嘛那如果在川普上任之後那他要退出WTO那對於這個結合案的審議會不會有差別性不會有差別我們在審核結合案有我們的處理原則對因為你知道嘛就是說他上任前跟上任後有沒有"},{"start":3797.686,"end":3801.503,"text":"再加上說上任後如果就是美國他的貿易情況的"},{"start":3802.837,"end":3827.159,"text":"會不會對這個結合案有...因為UberEats是美國公司那Fubenda是德國公司嘛那這樣子兩個就是說在這個局勢變動之下會不會有任何的差異那你是不是能做以上的說明不會有差異我們審核結合還是依據我們的公平交易法那根據我們的公平交易法我們有一些結合的處理原則我們還是依照我們的法令繼續來審查這個案子"},{"start":3829,"end":3829.02,"text":"張綺凱委員"},{"start":3844.187,"end":3857.376,"text":"很多委員都提案我想最關心的還是那個Uber Eats跟普遍塔那個合併案的問題啦所以我先提議說先凍結兩百兩百的原因就是因為你一定很快你這個案子就要審了嘛對不對如果審的這個結果"},{"start":3860.157,"end":3885.526,"text":"全部的立法委員關注的一個就是一般的消費者錢你有沒有保障嘛第一個是外送員的這個錢你有沒有保障嘛那另外那些店家有沒有因為你這個合併案例如說價格變高了他受到衝擊然後又轉嫁給這個消費者但是三個面向只要先凍結然後先觀察然後你們本來就要審嘛對不對審完的結果是符合全民的到時候我們就解凍好不好"},{"start":3890.092,"end":3901.589,"text":"我想跟委員說明一下因為這個計畫要處理的是查緝聯合行為、不正競爭等等有其他的我們核心業務的執法的行為要處理"},{"start":3902.991,"end":3914.363,"text":"復本大這個案子確實很重要但是他是我們諸多的個案之一的一件我們一定會很努力很積極的依據現有的法律來處理那本來這個預算是500多萬東捷200萬可能在業務上執行會"},{"start":3919.668,"end":3921.329,"text":"等一下本席再來處理你先回答委員的問題就可以了好接下來"},{"start":3946.927,"end":3964.096,"text":"區委員你的案子我們審到第13案你有沒有意見13現在到13好先主委再跟區委員說明一下"},{"start":3969.505,"end":3983.203,"text":"這個計畫主要的執行是在查緝聯合行為不正競爭的行為還有結合案件那目的是維護我們台灣的競爭秩序那最主要是在執法方面所必須的一個計畫"},{"start":3991.574,"end":4018.829,"text":"我沒有意見但是我對於剛剛這個有委員提到因為某些個案然後要來凍結這個預算我個人是有一點看法我覺得不應該依某些個案然後來凍結或者是刪減預算我們可以要求你們要秉公處理要再更獨立性獨立性要再更強一點但是如果因為某些個案這個去凍結這個預算我覺得這個不是很妥適"},{"start":4022.076,"end":4039.901,"text":"好謝謝那以上委員都提出意見了那現在我們就來處理第4案到第13案第10案是改成主決議那我們從第4案到第13案我們就凍結200萬科目可以自調科目自調"},{"start":4042.722,"end":4044.344,"text":"第4到第13是571萬的預算,你整個凍結200萬,200萬你凍了將近五成欸"},{"start":4061.744,"end":4080.904,"text":"那你解凍的日期還遙遙無期欸還不曉得什麼時候會解凍主席要不要我們連同那個因為這個部分連同其實到20案都是差不多都是這樣的一個我們講完再來處理好不好阿不然你現在凍成這樣我們這裡還要求凍這樣就靠尿尿啊"},{"start":4082.21,"end":4089.116,"text":"11案跟12案我就是做文字修正改書面那凍結改書面這樣好不好好 謝伊鳳委員從他的11案跟12案改成主決議是嗎好改成主決議"},{"start":4111.308,"end":4111.809,"text":"張祺凱委員、賴瑞隆委員"},{"start":4127.479,"end":4145.25,"text":"現在看起來應該有兩個可以比較接近大家可以接受的那個戴瑞榮那一位不是提了個減類50萬嗎?然後凍結10%我是凍結200然後其他委員都提了後面也有加進的提凍結20%嘛我是不是建議例如說要不要用戴瑞榮這個減類50萬凍結10%或者是用我的凍結200來好不好"},{"start":4151.345,"end":4175.55,"text":"加進還有一個凍結20我們就少一個折衝值好不好好先請賴委員我的建議是這樣因為要不就凍結50萬要不然就剪裂50萬就挑一個啦但是我覺得就是給予他們要求他們來做一個處理啦那我還是希望他們對於這一塊的這個特別是普遍大這一塊的這些相關的事務的部分還是要謹慎來做一些處理"},{"start":4181.192,"end":4194.983,"text":"副編長這個事情大家都非常關注了我相信不是有前面這個提案後面很多提案跟這個都連動啦我怕聽我講一下剛剛那個時效性不是問題因為這個事情不可能再拖了嘛對不對正常應該是明年1月份"},{"start":4197.574,"end":4221.31,"text":"現在已經在審查當中啦,我們會盡量快點審查你的意思搞不好12月最近就,所以時效不是問題嘛,第二個大家都關注嘛,所以這個事情一定要有一個態度啦老師建議應該是差不多那個瑞隆你不能一下子那個減劣50跟凍結10%兩個變成選一個,你可以,我可以贊成你本來的提案本來提凍結,那個減劣50萬或者凍結10%要不然就用凍結200萬好,陳廷飛委員陳廷飛委員完畢了賴瑞隆委員,我們就要來處理囉"},{"start":4229.525,"end":4257.966,"text":"謝謝主席其實這前面到13跟到20其實它都是同樣的就是說在我們整個限制競爭行為的調查處理啦齁那其實這個FuPenna跟UberEat的部分齁我都覺得我們公平會的態度太為軟弱了你們所講的都完全得不到一般民眾可以對你們的認同感"},{"start":4258.837,"end":4271.758,"text":"因為這兩個合併之後變成大怪獸而且他大怪獸是從消費者到整個外送員一直到餐廳"},{"start":4274.11,"end":4302.7,"text":"我相信這個完全以後都沒有人可以管得到的然後你們當時所做的一些瞭解座談、公聽會又辦得這麼狹隘我都不知道說你們到底有沒有全面去得到這些消費者也好還有我們的外送員甚至餐飲業者他們真正的聲音我都很懷疑那你現在延後了一個月沒有錯"},{"start":4304.144,"end":4328.051,"text":"可是延後一個月我們現在我們要去補做什麼動作你延這個一個月的意義在哪裡會不會再延第二次因為你們上次其實我在質詢台已經跟你們質詢了你們光一個公聽會明明這個是知識體大的案子你們居然就是北中南就這樣東"},{"start":4330.203,"end":4352.215,"text":"為什麼吝嗇於多開幾場讓人家南部就要到處奔走六都你都不捨得辦所以你讓人家沒有辦法全面去表達他的意見甚至是你說有我們在網路上有收集可是網路上收集又是那麼小的意見"},{"start":4354.192,"end":4368.949,"text":"那麼小的意見可以代表全部的外送員?可以代表全部的餐飲業者?可以代表所有的消費者嗎?所以你們到底這一個月你們是要做什麼?我想跟委員說明一下好,請帶領委員"},{"start":4374.653,"end":4391.771,"text":"好,我想上次在質詢的時候我也跟主委提醒過啦齁這個Uber Eats跟Fubima的併購案這個其實對台灣會造成相當大的一個影響它對於消費者的權益對於這個外送員的權益都會造成相當重大的影響"},{"start":4392.432,"end":4419.217,"text":"那我也講過全世界沒有這兩個併起來後幾乎佔了八成甚至到九成的一個比例全世界沒有任何一個國家在世界外送的狀況狀況下有超過七成的沒有一個那甚至於新加坡更直接的你連案子送進來我根本連收都不收我連收案都不收案就公平會已經收案了公平會到現在為止的態度讓我們非常擔心我們很擔心最後你出來的結果處理完的結果跟"},{"start":4420.618,"end":4449.24,"text":"這個是有相當大的一個落差跟人民的觀感跟相當大的落差而且我上次也提醒過了Uber Eats在這個美國的例子裡面其實有去對於他的委員有做一些收買的一些動作的那在台灣我不知道會不會這麼做所以他也有留下一個不好的一些惡例的時候那我們會開始擔心公平會的委員能不能很公正的去做出一個好的一個裁決這都是我們非常擔心的而"},{"start":4449.68,"end":4467.985,"text":"公平會也是政府的議員也是代表的政府的形象一旦做出了不恰當的一個處理的時候那往往會造成整個國家形象重大的受傷之外也會造成我們的消費者的一些權益跟這個外送員的權益一個重大的影響所以我們還是"},{"start":4468.985,"end":4492.275,"text":"要求主委真的必須非常非常慎重處理這件事情每個委員包括所有的民間都表達強大的擔憂我再次提醒如果兩個整併是超過八成甚至九成絕對是一個獨佔的而且全世界沒有一個國家超過七成以上台灣會成為第一個所以我們認為這件事情主委要很有魄力去做這個解決不然真的會造成大家非常大的一個傷害跟隱憂"},{"start":4495.225,"end":4514.745,"text":"我來一起回答委員關心的主委因為剛好我們跟議事處這邊討論一下還是把這個第4案一直合併到第20案一起處理好了所以在這個增加14到20的部分有委員有意見的話也是可以提出"},{"start":4515.605,"end":4535.874,"text":"本期提案也是第17案我們也希望我們對於外送平台跟店家跟消費者這邊的權益一定要照顧到這個已經很久了我們希望我們公平會能夠確定的來執行你們工作業務才能夠讓我們所有三方的權益都獲得保障那其他委員還有沒有意見"},{"start":4540.353,"end":4545.468,"text":"這個案子各界都關注其實我們也非常注意第一個我們一定會"},{"start":4546.721,"end":4575.8,"text":"公正依法審慎處理第二個剛才委員提到說為什麼要再嚴這麼重大的一個案件除了徵詢各界意見以外當事人也應該要來陳述意見那因為這兩個是這個外商公司他們能夠來台灣陳述意見的時間經過他們的這個這個戳上以後是在12月17號也就是我們是在11月8號"},{"start":4578.122,"end":4605.373,"text":"文件齊備12月19日當事人要來陳述意見這是正當程序的一個需要那我們為什麼會延呢因為法定期間是到19號那到17號來陳述意見如果沒有做出委員這個案子就會準了所以為了這個慎重起見我們一定要先延這個審查的期間當事人陳述意見以後針對他的意見綜合去判斷這是為什麼要延的一個理由"},{"start":4606.393,"end":4629.731,"text":"現在所有的程序都齊備當事人也都陳述意見了我們正積極在針對各界的意見以及結合當事人的意見現在正在審查那當然會用一個很快的時間盡量來處理那委員的意見我們所有的公平會的委員也都瞭解那因為公平會是一個獨立機關我作為主委沒有辦法去"},{"start":4631.055,"end":4658.751,"text":"告訴委員說這個案子應該要怎麼做但是各界包括立法院國會的意見我非常充分的表達給我們的其他的委員去了解好 我們先請張其樂委員完畢之後請陳庭菲委員我們的議事人員真的很優秀他們剛剛已經看到實際上不是只有到14條啦後面的那個19、20那個都是那個都是在這個課目那實際上大家現在這次會提我相信大部分委員都會提老蔣還是這個案子"},{"start":4660.332,"end":4662.213,"text":"時效你不要擔心預算被凍結的問題,你要擔心的是被減累"},{"start":4674.581,"end":4700.732,"text":"目前檢列的人是比較少所以我就往凍結的方向來走因為你時間也很快馬上要處理嘛會有結果嘛對不對然後你要保證說你會很積極跟正面的專念來處理這個問題所以大概不會是讓我們跌破眼鏡的答案也不會讓前名很失望嘛所以主委不要太擔心我的建議就是說整體來談一個談一個第一往凍結方向走那第二個就是整體來談看到凍多少那你們如果趕快把它處理好前名都符合那都沒有問題了就夠了好不好"},{"start":4702.076,"end":4730.521,"text":"陳婷菲委員主委說的就是說會議最主要是因為我們要做到完整性就是說讓當事者他可以陳述一件所以他原本他12月17號才能陳述所以呢我們這整個案子是12月19號原本如果沒演的話12月19號就要做出準博了否則如果沒有做出動作的話就會等於是"},{"start":4731.141,"end":4758.296,"text":"好像他就變成是同意所以呢如果依照這個理由那麼我們還勉強可以相信我們公平會還是公正的可是我很擔心剛剛主委一直說我們公平會的委員是很公正的可是在我們數次看到公平會的所有的資料裡面不好意思我完全看不到我們的主委"},{"start":4758.976,"end":4783.649,"text":"那個我們的助理不好意思我們看不到我們的主委所以呢在這個當中我們會認為你所講的我們更擔心啊沒錯啊是獨立機關那會不會獨立到完全沒有聽到人民的擔憂跟我們消費者的聲音甚至是所有參與業者的意見"},{"start":4785.07,"end":4813.97,"text":"這是非常嚴重的如果公平交易委員會遭受影響有可能他的這個外送費然後等等他的要求會更高這轉嫁在誰的身上消費者的身上業者的身上然後可能會對我們的外送員給予更嚴格的要求這對我們台灣所有的不論是外送"},{"start":4815.373,"end":4843.719,"text":"外送員或是我們的餐飲業者或是我們的消費者剛好是三商我再一次強調這不是獨立機關與不獨立機關的問題這是牽扯到我們三方我們台灣人民可能會因此受到嚴重傷害所以我再一次強調這個其實如果依照現在一面倒大家都反對根本他的準博會很快"},{"start":4845.359,"end":4863.986,"text":"如果再拖拖拉拉讓我們會更加質疑公平會的態度所以其實我不會因為個案去凍結可是我也認為公平會從過去到現在我們在立法院講的反正每次都是屁話"},{"start":4865.407,"end":4890.541,"text":"沒有一次對你們會有任何的約束性所以我也認為在這個預算當中應該是要有所凍結凍結完之後我相信如果很快能夠做出人民能夠有依據的而且能夠同意相信的結論我們再與書面解凍我覺得這才是比較重要 謝謝"},{"start":4891.769,"end":4917.87,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在就來處理第4案到20案在11、12這3案都是改成主決議那這個整 這個第4到第20案我們就凍結100萬科目可以自調各位大家支持你的預算我請你要有擔當把所有業務可以執行好"},{"start":4920.157,"end":4922.279,"text":"總共才570萬從第4到第20是571加215好不好這個210萬是在571萬裡面的向下"},{"start":4938.383,"end":4945.287,"text":"這全部啊 全部就從571萬的那個公平交易業務限制競爭行為調查到後面的加了那個215萬公平交易業務就限制競爭行為調查處理那個啦"},{"start":4953.812,"end":4969.507,"text":"全部加在一起那個210萬不是加570萬是570萬向下有一個215萬他是一三之位主席那我建議就凍結50好不好就是其實目標希望他們這已經加在一起了啦因為很多都改成主節目總決議了"},{"start":4972.158,"end":4987.568,"text":"主委你不要這麼多意見是我們委員在決定的100就很少而且重要是你趕快解決不緊張100都馬上就解動你順便報告出來就動之啊欸主委你這樣的態度我都懷疑說待會做出來結果一定不是這樣勒好了啦100100100還好啦齁"},{"start":4992.034,"end":5018.485,"text":"200降成100已經很好了我再宣告一次請主委尊重我們委員的決定大家都同意這樣子做了而且我們今天已經凍結很少了再重新宣布一次從第4案到第20案其中的第10、11、12改成主決議那4到20案我們凍結100萬書面報告經同意使得凍資科目可以自調"},{"start":5019.685,"end":5040.603,"text":"好接下來是21案到32案在我們的第二幕請先說明好那21到32主要是我們處理不公平競爭的調查包括不實廣告等等這是還有多層次傳銷的管理跟各種法令的宣導"},{"start":5046.954,"end":5073.493,"text":"請陳尼菲委員然後賴榮維還有張七凱委員謝謝主席對於多層次傳銷我一直認為你們的管理你們都在自繳械也就是把你們的武器都完全放給大家我們一直要求你們要比較嚴格管理但是我們公平會說不要要求你們修法你們說不要"},{"start":5075.031,"end":5095.843,"text":"你們覺得這樣就OK了可是我要問請問多層次傳銷光這些所謂的不實廣告不當正品然後損害他人營業信譽還有其他影響秩序還有罔顧公平行為的請問你們去年總共多少件"},{"start":5097.148,"end":5116.774,"text":"不實廣告我們每年在不實廣告方面沒有我只有說多層次傳銷的這個部分我沒有說全部喔多層次傳銷喔關你這個部分請問有真正被你們判別調查的不算喔你的調查各位都沒事啦"},{"start":5117.854,"end":5135.282,"text":"調查不算後真正已經在整個多層次傳銷已經有處理了罰的不實廣告不當贈品損害他人營業信譽還有其他主意影響到交易秩序還有影響公平行為的這幾個樣態請問"},{"start":5138.903,"end":5156.344,"text":"總共處理幾件我們去年多層次傳銷處理的有100多件那正式行政處分的有9件對啊100多件真正行政處分9件這個比例你認為你們可以接受嗎"},{"start":5158.064,"end":5186.566,"text":"這些100多件應該都是消費者檢舉的有檢舉或者是我們查處就是你們自己查處的你們自己查的結果最後還不了了之這不是很好笑嗎100多件所以我才跟你說由你們自己來講100多件最後懲處的行政法才9件"},{"start":5189.235,"end":5203.008,"text":"所以你們完全把你們的武器都攪出去了我們不會怕嘛怎麼會怕怎麼會怕好9件裡面請問比例最多的分別是在哪裡"},{"start":5205.986,"end":5218.914,"text":"九件違反的太陽一百多件最後有懲處的行政法就是只有九件這九件裡面分別的樣態又是什麼"},{"start":5220.02,"end":5242.419,"text":"是跟委員報告我們這個最常見到的他違法的一個太陽是你不要說你搬太陽這9件你們好不容易從100多件都沒事沒事沒事最好終於有9件有事情這9件的太陽主要focus在哪裡"},{"start":5244.121,"end":5244.141,"text":"幾件?"},{"start":5262.58,"end":5276.21,"text":"你這樣依照你講的這個都是小事欸因為我們是處理多層次傳銷管理法跟委員報告以這個我們這九件裡面我們有一件是退出退貨他這個沒有按照我們的規定來做的"},{"start":5276.67,"end":5285.019,"text":"另外有5件就是屬於報備程序有違法就是剛剛提到可能還沒有開始還沒有報備就做傳銷另外就是他應該變更報備然後沒有來變更報備這個有5件那另外還有這個屬於他這個其他的這種違法的太陽"},{"start":5295.09,"end":5322.539,"text":"那這個什麼違法太陽這邊六件阿那個沒有照你們規定的退出退貨的一件阿然後沒有完成報備程序的五件阿對不對然後再來勒那其他勒你有九件阿還有三件阿所以你的資料也沒有多重阿我的了解我們還有譬如說傳銷商傳銷事業對於傳銷商沒有好好規範你們今天要來處理這個"},{"start":5325.03,"end":5353.263,"text":"這裡面寫這麼清楚不公平競爭行為調查處理及多層次傳銷管理這將你請測你們手中的資料都不齊全你們到底這一年來已經好不容易100多件然後好不容易只有剩9件你們9件到底怎麼懲處的行政法的太陽你們都講不清楚你們公平會到底在幹嘛"},{"start":5356.178,"end":5363.325,"text":"叫你們嚴格管理 你們不嚴格管理 要給你們武器 你們不願意 都說這樣就夠了 結果明明我們從周邊 給我們讀書的 給我們聽證的 不使廣告一堆 不當證品的一堆結果這個都不是你們行政法的太樣"},{"start":5380.54,"end":5382.701,"text":"關於公平交易委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":5406.039,"end":5434.342,"text":"所以我認為我要檢列這一筆錢齁我要檢列10萬給你們一個一個警惕啦因為我們每一次在這邊立法院這邊講的每一次反正告訴不給回家公共的然後明明消費者給我們的陳情那麼多到你們那邊都是不以出力查無證據查無事實那到底我們我們要怎麼對消費者交代啊"},{"start":5436.036,"end":5459.05,"text":"消費者明明都有被所謂被騙的感覺好 謝謝委員東西我再說明一下我們一併回答委員詢答完畢之後你再一併回答你要把回答清楚不然委員不會支持你的預算現在請賴立倫委員我想公平會每次啦其實"},{"start":5460.918,"end":5486.377,"text":"諮詢很多次加很多次啦齁那幾乎是搞不回家啦齁就是大概一年反正應付個立法院兩三次撐一下就過去了齁所以基本上幾乎沒有辦法每次我們在講到這些問題不管是積極行政這件事情啦齁我認為其實公平會幾乎是全政府部分大概最保守單位之一啦齁那基本上每次都要求你們手上有很多的武器應該更積極的去做作為可是每次都很失望啦齁"},{"start":5486.977,"end":5506.153,"text":"像現在最嚴重最嚴重的其實都是很多的詐騙不實的廣告詐騙那很多部會不見得有武器但是公平會其實是有武器的你可以更積極一點行政也很多的程序上可以保障嘛你如果對這些詐騙者或對這些違法者你覺得違反到他的權益"},{"start":5506.894,"end":5526.796,"text":"他還有很多救濟的程序但是不是你們幾乎是自我嚴格自我的保護完全是不碰這個完全限制所以讓整個詐騙的狀況幾乎是變成警察機關是後面收的收不完處理不完一直宣導拜託大家不要被騙拜託大家然後看到這麼多的"},{"start":5528.137,"end":5556.602,"text":"詐騙的廣告不斷出現在網路上不斷出現在然後公平會明明有一些武器可用的你們卻自我的限縮不願意用你們只是因為我覺得你們是覺得麻煩啊弄了啊到時候還要麻煩了事情太多了太麻煩了乾脆就不要處理或者謹慎處理很確切有的再處理啊沒有的就不要但是在面對這種很惡劣的詐騙行為大家一看就知道是詐騙的行為的時候你當然要很強勢的去做處理嘛平台覺得有壓力嘛"},{"start":5557.335,"end":5583.133,"text":"你對開罰下去絕對有壓力這些詐騙者絕對有壓力對這些人你不用下手不能留情嘛你留那麼多的情就是一堆人被詐騙嘛那但是公平在這件事情有沒有善加運用國家給予你們的武器沒有講了很多次真的沒有從來沒有從你們的件數從你們的這個裁罰的金額就知道完全沒有毫無嚇阻力"},{"start":5585.171,"end":5611.486,"text":"所以這樣的狀況下你要大家怎麼支持你們這些預算我真的認為我有時候我常不知道公平會到底在扮演什麼角色他到底有沒有展現出他該有的一個功能消費者有沒有確實被保護到全部去問一下啦國人好了啦有沒有感覺到公平會的功能有存在有沒有感覺到公平會有達到他的目的有沒有人知道公平會在做什麼恐怕是存在感最低的一個部會"},{"start":5612.662,"end":5624.937,"text":"那難道作為公平的主委跟委員們都沒有感覺嗎?所以我覺得這個問題真的是要主委好好去重視怎麼講都沒有用反正一年就來個兩三次"},{"start":5626.398,"end":5652.86,"text":"講過了之後結束就沒有了然後下次繼續再來同一個問題可以不斷的要求你們沒有意義所以我也強烈的要求必須要做簡略讓你知道立法院對這件事是憤怒的人民是憤怒的公平會再不有作為的話那公平會真的可以考慮看裁兵掉算了我不知道你們的存在目的為何乾脆跟消費者保護這個整併然後讓消費者保護來主導整個所有的工作說不定還比較有功能一點要不然我不知道公平會到底要幹嘛"},{"start":5653.834,"end":5670.116,"text":"我真的不知道公平到底能扮演什麼角色在面對的詐騙越來越多網路詐騙越來越多的時代與時俱進的時代的時候公平會有沒有跟著國家跟著人民一起往前走還是放任這樣的行為不斷的出現如果是主委或是委員的話我絕對看不下去了嘛"},{"start":5671.28,"end":5683.392,"text":"我一直罰你一直罰你罰到你怕為止嘛我對平台覺得一直要求你嘛我怎麼可能容許你們做這樣的行為一直發生但是你們失誤無感好像跟你們沒有關係喔這不是我的業務喔這不是我的範圍"},{"start":5685.347,"end":5709.582,"text":"是不是你們的業務是不是你們範圍我做過了行政有積極行政跟消極行政嘛積極也可以作為消極也可以完全不作為嘛都沒有違法都合乎所有的嘛你們有沒有任何一個案件我不會看到訴願我沒有看到什麼樣的案件啊因為大家覺得反正你們處理都是最安全的問題嘛百分之百合乎你們完全但是你們有沒有更積極的去用積極行政角度去"},{"start":5710.649,"end":5711.97,"text":"接下來請張祺凱委員賴瑞龍委員跟陳廷輝委員都講得很"},{"start":5733.299,"end":5738.067,"text":"嚴正跟激動不過我是那個剛剛陳庭輝陳委員說減類10萬塊我是覺得少了一點我建議減類50萬重點除了剛剛委員們提醒的"},{"start":5746.272,"end":5770.424,"text":"公平會是個很重要的單位他當然也可以做太平官可是不要站在人民的這個碰到很多的問題公平會不應該只是保守友誼、積極性不足你從現在我們在討論這個限制建徵行為、產業獨佔結合跟聯合行為的調查我們翻開這個記錄看起來就是對啊就是說積極性就是不夠嘛"},{"start":5771.297,"end":5793.28,"text":"然後計價就是不漲啊所以在人民的角度當然希望就是說透過一個監督跟檢列提醒也是要求公平會以後積極性要強一點點所以我的建議就是檢列50萬好還有沒有其他委員賴委員問一下我的建議也是檢列50萬我的提案裡面就是檢列50萬"},{"start":5795.501,"end":5817.176,"text":"本席的提案是第25案對於這個不動產的不實廣告我們真的公平會要積極拿出態度來一輩子可能買一次房子而已就碰到這個詐騙那他以後的住的問題是怎麼辦這非常的嚴重所以我們希望我們公平會你有工具你有權力公權力你應該要保障我們人民"},{"start":5818.046,"end":5818.947,"text":"陳立法院委員陳立法院委員"},{"start":5827.635,"end":5840.805,"text":"我的案子是那個檢列10萬凍結3%所以再看主席怎麼處理好 那我們現在其他委員都已經詢問完畢的話我們現在就來處理第21案到32案我們就來檢列50萬凍結50萬提出報告經同意後使得凍資"},{"start":5856.187,"end":5876.32,"text":"來接下來我們處理33到35案抱歉就是剛才委員主席宣布了是不是科目容許我們自行調整好在21案到32案我們科目自行調整現在處理33案到35案來請賴樂隆委員好請先說明"},{"start":5887.81,"end":5905.717,"text":"主要是行政救濟的業務因為公民會有很多處罰我們會有一些行政訴訟強制執行那包括法規的研討我們法規會變的編撰等等以及研修法律需要做一些研究那這是以上是這個計畫那我就凍結5%了說明後再請解凍好不好"},{"start":5912.961,"end":5942.961,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":5945.382,"end":5963.893,"text":"那我們就來請成立那邊委員我是認為這個一樣我覺得我要檢列我要檢列10萬然後凍結就尊重尊重那個主席好還有沒有其他委員沒有我們就來處理33案到35案這個我們凍結50萬檢列10萬"},{"start":5973.12,"end":5983.249,"text":"主席,是否容許我說明一下。好,請說明。這個計畫,最主要公平會的訴訟我們原則上都是自己打官司。那在整個"},{"start":5984.614,"end":5984.634,"text":"請陳聶飛委員"},{"start":6006.936,"end":6031.627,"text":"主席我覺得你們應該問說為什麼我們每次給你們這麼多的這樣的一個預算然後你們每次打官司都輸為什麼我們官司15以上我們勝訴率很高然後在重要的案子都輸重要案子都輸你像之前殺死的壟斷你們就輸啊"},{"start":6035.508,"end":6036.409,"text":"為什麼大案子小案子都不會過"},{"start":6053.021,"end":6071.669,"text":"大案子才有指標性阿大案子的指標性才是有一個殺雞儆猴說我就是有決心可是怎麼會每一次你們自己去看阿我舉例好了我們現在大家消費者最關心的那個不當行銷阿在路上或者是問卷不當行銷我們花了2500萬"},{"start":6073.23,"end":6098.978,"text":"這是最高法案現在目前的訴訟我們也是得到勝訴所以所有不管是大案或小案公平會只要是做出處分我們都窮盡我們的攻擊防疫方法能夠得到勝訴那目前我們的勝訴也是非常高的我這一次我不簡略沒有我們希望你們要把在書面的當中把你們所有訴訟的勝訴敗訴案子"},{"start":6102.779,"end":6123.549,"text":"然後最長的部分列表給我們好,陳委員我們還是簡略啦不堅持簡略好,我們陳委員支持你們的預算啦所以33到35萬我們凍結50萬書面報告"},{"start":6127.675,"end":6142.587,"text":"來接下來我們處理36案到47案請先說明主要是我們辦理研討會還有中央地方跨機關合作另外國際競爭法的資料資訊的一些交流等等好說明完畢了這麼簡單"},{"start":6158.154,"end":6177.768,"text":"請問委員張棋台委員、陳林飛委員、楊瓊逸委員、賴樂隆委員這部分這個綜合規劃跟這個宣傳宣傳業務的這個先導費用我比較有意見的是兩個一個還是剛剛那個延續剛剛那個就是那個主動積極面不夠所以你做的事情"},{"start":6179.025,"end":6194.551,"text":"老蔣能夠宣傳真的也有限這是一個問題為什麼需要那麼多的錢去宣傳這是一個那第二個現在都是一個電子通信跟那個媒體的這個平臺平臺啦你都透過這個去發這個宣傳就好了不用再花這麼多錢所以我本來提議這個要減類減類100萬那我當然知道這個金額可能對"},{"start":6201.354,"end":6208.97,"text":"公平位可能會接的負擔太重或許我可以把這個減內變成是凍結或者是刪少一點好不好"},{"start":6210.203,"end":6210.523,"text":"陳莉菲委員"},{"start":6232.541,"end":6232.721,"text":"楊俊逸委員"},{"start":6248.85,"end":6268.506,"text":"謝謝本席的提案是38案針對於公平交易業務綜合規劃及宣傳業務的部分本席是簡略10%那等於是簡略20萬那我真的要很語重心長的要給主委所領軍的團隊"},{"start":6270.828,"end":6293.798,"text":"因為其實大家看似公平會沒有說很重要但是其實它是政府裡頭非常重要的單位而且它是獨立機關單位而且它是人民生活非常息息相關你給它想喔 新竹的 新鴻雅廟外面的大廈"},{"start":6297.096,"end":6324.95,"text":"5塊、10塊你自己說聯合壟斷影響到他多少的商圈他的生意這一點最後你們說我用規勸我沒有處罰可是傷害已經造成那這個相對也就是到底我們公平會站的立場是什麼我們一直告訴你富平打跟這個烏貝利你到底什麼時候要宣布準博呢"},{"start":6327.011,"end":6339.923,"text":"民眾快要過年了 很緊張針對這個案子你突然間 病醫生說醫法可以延長兩個月你們就到3月21嘛 是不是讓人民怎麼過年啊為什麼要如此我們盡我們的本分啊勞動部已經告訴你他們不同意合併啊已經告訴你了勞動部已經告訴你了"},{"start":6354.621,"end":6368.607,"text":"財政部也表示他們的意見那你們說你要廣收資料我們到底訊息正不正確訊息告訴我們說你們延長的理由是說要去看他的市佔率"},{"start":6370.214,"end":6386.103,"text":"如果是這樣子 那我們人民真的很恐慌欸如果到現在連我們公平會要審查的委員都不知道負騙打跟Uber Eats他們的市佔率是多少那你難道沒住在台灣嗎?不了解這個情況嗎?這個讓我真的很訝異 很訝異"},{"start":6394.269,"end":6401.837,"text":"所以主席我認為公平會呢必須要嚴謹去面對所以38我提前列20萬 請任委員"},{"start":6406.974,"end":6426.569,"text":"好我想這個部分是中國規劃跟宣導的業務然後同樣還是回到目的宣導的目的何在宣導要做什麼用那我認為現在公平會最需要面對的就是包括剛剛提到幾個議題甚至於我認為網路詐騙平台詐騙的部分怎麼樣去"},{"start":6427.483,"end":6430.485,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算及附屬單位預算及附屬單位預算及附屬單位預算及附屬單位預算及附屬單位預算及"},{"start":6450.026,"end":6477.184,"text":"好 請出示委員事實上 我有點感覺就是說我們要求公平會能夠要做得更好事實上你們也可以做得更好但是這個預算實在是不多啦我又怕這個今天你們預算你們說立法院不支持我們預算我們能力有限資源有限不能做更多事情我又怕你又把球丟給我們所以預算我基本上支持但是要如何要求你們能夠做得更好"},{"start":6478.143,"end":6503.534,"text":"做到符合大家的期待顯然啊不符合這個經濟委員會所有的期待我們是代表民意啊而且代表說民意對於公平會的表現還覺得不夠滿意希望能夠更提升那我覺得既然預算已經夠少啦那我覺得還是要讓你們有足夠的預算可以做更多的事情但是凍結是一定要的"},{"start":6504.494,"end":6505.114,"text":"這個預算就200而已啦好接下來還有哪位委員"},{"start":6535.066,"end":6555.053,"text":"本期的是第40案因為我們針對於多層次的傳銷工作現在從許可字已經改為報備字了讓很多的傳銷的合格資格我們要為了避免衍生出吸金的手段讓我們民眾受到詐騙之苦我們希望公平會更要拿出更積極的態度來執行它的業務"},{"start":6558.034,"end":6566.963,"text":"所以如果沒有其他委員的意見的話我們第36案到47案我們現在就來處理全案我們凍結50萬減列20萬科目可以自調接下來我們處理第48案到50案請說明"},{"start":6582.975,"end":6582.995,"text":"賴委員"},{"start":6610.763,"end":6624.881,"text":"這個部分可不可以請主委再更清楚說明你們參加這些會議的話過去有得到什麼樣的成果跟未來給你們這些預算的時候你們預定達到什麼成果我決定好了今年的6月還有今年的11月我們辦了國際競爭網絡的研討會"},{"start":6627.163,"end":6642.402,"text":"全世界競爭法國家將近100個國家的競爭機關來台灣那我們對於這樣的一個國際事務第一個增加台灣在競爭法的一個主導的立場那第一方面在國際交流彼此交換信息也是非常重要的"},{"start":6644.434,"end":6668.337,"text":"我主要提一下競爭法上面這些都是但是我看到國際上面大家的很多趨勢我認為有時候臺灣的公平會反倒是落後在人家後面就是說不管在公平跟消護保護的有些人早就很整病了然後我們好像也沒什麼動作然後對於這個剛剛大家都提到的這個網路平台這件事情包括網路的這個外送的"},{"start":6668.817,"end":6691.426,"text":"人家早就有很明確的一些方向了然後我們的處理還是落在人家後面還讓立委們跟民眾們要很擔憂到底公平會會不會做出讓大家很誇張而無法理解的一個決定就是說包括甚至於在網路詐騙10月各國早就已經公平各世界各國的公平單位對於詐騙早就有很多積極的一些作為然後我們的公平會還這樣就是說我不知道你們開這些目的是什麼"},{"start":6692.307,"end":6711.728,"text":"來邀請世界各國來看台灣在關鍵的議題上面如何落後大家嗎就是我完全不懂你們談這些議題例行性的開會然後大家討論得很開心這個這個我沒有什麼特別意見但是關鍵性的幾個議題全世界在關注的議題你們能不能跟上這些時代的趨勢你們能不能聽到國外好的意見然後採納人家好的意見"},{"start":6712.869,"end":6734.593,"text":"我現在看不到所以我不知道這個預算要怎麼支持我們這個預算不只是人進來我們也包括我們的同仁走出去那在國際交流部分是非常重要的一環因為所有的企業都是國際化所以剛才委員提到的結合各方面這其實都是我們在討論的我瞭解主委走出去很重要我知道啦但走出去又把什麼東西帶回來這更重要啦"},{"start":6737.334,"end":6762.44,"text":"我希望在剛剛提到幾個議題上面你們要跟上國際的目前的主流的一些趨勢嘛比如說剛剛講到的大家對於外送平台的部分的態度那我們到底有沒有跟上去就至少我們沒有要求要領先但是要跟上去嘛不要全世界會發現台灣在這件事情上面跟大家落差很大包括講到了網路的詐騙網路這件事情全世界早就已經"},{"start":6763.22,"end":6774.099,"text":"所謂的公平會不管是韓國的公平會其他世界各國公平會早就正式積極在面對這些問題很積極處理修法甚至很積極的用各種行政手段介入在處理讓我們的公平會這麼的消極"},{"start":6775.826,"end":6800.831,"text":"包括所有講到這些問題我感受不到我們的公平會的人把這些人邀來的到底我們得到了什麼東西跟我們出去得到什麼你要告訴我們給你們這筆錢之後你們會怎麼樣與時俱進的達到這些效果那大家人民才會覺得我們把錢給公平花這個錢是有意義的那如果你們只是例行性的還是開研討會研討會很多可以開啊開不完的研討會啊人也可以送出去啊好多都可以送啊但是得到了什麼"},{"start":6801.511,"end":6828.041,"text":"我認為如果公平會不能跟人民與時俱進不能跟國家與時俱進的話你這些經費要大家怎麼支持這最大的問題好請楊全英委員謝謝主席楊全英發言針對這個跟國際交流我們當然是支持你今年這個ICM的部分你是在今年就是上個月上個月的11月13到15"},{"start":6829.742,"end":6832.604,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於公平交易"},{"start":6846.294,"end":6859.624,"text":"來開會的這個部分不管人進來還是人出去那你今年那個明年度114年度的預算是增加將近快4000萬你增加了比今年113年增加了3900"},{"start":6861.505,"end":6864.387,"text":"本席請教明年編列的48至50項項目有1201項目還有ICN研討700萬項目"},{"start":6885.078,"end":6899.186,"text":"但是我本期要請教您預估的是在明年的5月份5月7號到9號你告訴我們的是這樣子嗎明年114年2025年5月7號到9號要辦理這個年會的項目"},{"start":6907.731,"end":6927.612,"text":"但是目前我們看到的國際組織裡頭的發布他只有發布愛丁堡會在愛丁堡來舉辦2025年年會的這個項目我們目前看不到目前看不到這個單位針對於其他研討會的活動訊息"},{"start":6929.534,"end":6944.061,"text":"到底是真的假的我現在聽到這個訊息你目前為止得到了這個訊息嗎來請做說明因為你這個預算大概是在半年前所變那所以我們看到到現在"},{"start":6945.242,"end":6960.924,"text":"他們所發布的只有說愛丁堡在明年的這個5月份呢這個5月的7號到9號要舉行在愛丁堡但是西向跟其他的國家都沒有那這個情況到底是怎麼回事呢"},{"start":6961.502,"end":6989.125,"text":"我跟委員說明一下ICN是一個很重要的國際競爭網絡一個國際性的競爭法的組織那他的這個集合是所有的競爭法主管機關會聚集的那你剛剛提到的明年已經確定了因為我們已經他整個年度計畫會辦什麼活動我們在上個禮拜已經收到了我是在上個禮拜收到嗎我上禮拜有收到他會把整年的計畫有收到5月7號到9號"},{"start":6990.606,"end":7013.192,"text":"那我再更正一下剛剛我說的說你明年度的針對這個部分是加了300多萬398萬就是這個國際的這個部分你的預算是比今年度增加所以我更正剛剛數字看錯那另外就是說你是在昨天收到嗎 是嗎"},{"start":7014.432,"end":7028.933,"text":"是上個禮拜五有收到就是ICN的這個主席有給所有會員相關的年度計畫那這比較重要的就是一年一度的年會是在明年的5月7號到9號那我們占了什麼角色呢?"},{"start":7030.27,"end":7048.809,"text":"例如說我去年我就在那因為你預算有增加例如說去年我親自去當我強調說國際接軌我們是支持但是我們也希望增加這個將近400萬的這個年度預算裡頭那你在這個明年度5月份要參加的時候到底"},{"start":7049.329,"end":7052.453,"text":"你的內容是跟今年一樣還是有在做提問?"},{"start":7052.453,"end":7066.891,"text":"ICN是針對每年發生的重要的競爭議題討論那像我去年我親自參加我就在那個大會有一兩百個會員的國家去發表演說來處理就是去分享台灣的執法經驗"},{"start":7068.253,"end":7095.973,"text":"明年還會再發表演說嗎?因為這個演說很多首長在爭取我們去年很成功的爭取到我上去報告那明年呢?預算是增加你更應該要上來就是說我們能夠去曝光能夠去分享我們台灣執法經驗的機會我們都積極在爭取那是不是能夠爭取到我們要看它整個大會報告的情形因為爭取去報告的國家是相當踴躍"},{"start":7097.424,"end":7120.366,"text":"我們要加油因為本期看到預算也增加我們也希望就是說到底你接到了這個訊息了沒有因為很快5月份等於5個月的時間所以這個本來就是超前部署的事項 對不對我還有一個建議就是說其實公平會可以給國家很大的信心"},{"start":7121.147,"end":7134.089,"text":"像比如說你明年也接受到了那你今天在報告當中就應該告訴我們而不要讓我們再去問你你懂嗎?這樣子會讓大家更有信心對這個國家有信心啊"},{"start":7135,"end":7155.969,"text":"是不是?因為我們觀光剛剛我本行非常在意的我不會跟副編打你什麼時候要告訴我們準播我希望待會結束前你可以告訴我們好不好?謝謝 請內陸董委員好 我具體建議因為經費上是有增加的我具體建議就三五十動五十提出書面報告再行解凍三五十萬動五十萬然後提書面報告再行解凍好 請陳金飛委員"},{"start":7162.209,"end":7162.89,"text":"委員會主管委員會主管"},{"start":7181.867,"end":7192.768,"text":"是不是容許我建議委員因為這租賄預算這個經費齁都是照時這樣編列如果有簡列的話可能在執行上會有點困難是不是可以同意凍結就好"},{"start":7194.724,"end":7223.365,"text":"拜委員你們能夠確保你們能夠達到什麼樣的成果啦我當然可以改成我可以改成動100但是我希望看到的是你們的執行成果是符合人民的期待的除了既有你們要做的事情外我也看到希望把更多好的意見帶回來然後同時成為你們的政策成為法令這個才有意義啦不然花這麼多錢我不知道我們的國際交流其實各國都是在這個場域去把最近大家發生什麼案例彼此請公平會讓國人更有信心好不好那我同意就改動解100"},{"start":7224.728,"end":7253.2,"text":"我是希望說在這個凍結書面報告裡面吧我們到底做了哪些交流然後交流的目的在哪裡到底我們現在重要在談的這些公平會相關的業務我們的重點擺在哪裡一定有一些重點嘛不可能沒有啊這些重點在哪裡那為什麼要這個國際交流那國際交流之後我們得到的又是什麼的一個資訊跟我們的啟發這比較重要吧"},{"start":7256.745,"end":7277.451,"text":"本期是建議我們做一個主決議吧因為公平會也不理我們連他接到國際邀請也不講那你們在國際這個上面有怎麼樣發光發熱也應該讓國人知道嗎你們怎麼做事情都不講呢很奇怪該講的不講不該講的偏偏一直講"},{"start":7278.771,"end":7294.242,"text":"所以我是說我們是不是各位同仁也同意國際交流的部分就做一個主決議將你們去國際交流的這個成果方向必須要跟國人報告也送一份給經濟委員會"},{"start":7296.147,"end":7318.202,"text":"我補充一下老師把這五年來的國際交流的成果全部一份報告送給經濟委員會各委員好嗎就是這五年來的交流成果出去外面的交流跟到台灣來的交流成果全部一份報告給我們同意好那現在我們第48案到50案我們請公平會趕快領一個主決議給我們那在這48到50案我們就凍結100萬好經同意後使得凍資"},{"start":7326.735,"end":7348.697,"text":"因為要看你的主決意怎麼寫接下來我們處理51案到58案請說明51、58主要是我們的資訊業務跟經濟分析我們做各種競爭法的執法要對市場結構還有產業的整個資訊要做經濟分析所以主要是用在這一部分另外也有我們內部的"},{"start":7350.759,"end":7351.159,"text":"請委員支持請委員"},{"start":7367.564,"end":7385.459,"text":"謝謝主席楊卿發言楊卿所提是51案這個部分我減列10%也就是減列54萬5千7百塊那我可以成為減列50萬這個理由是什麼呢我還是回歸復編達跟UberEats"},{"start":7387.04,"end":7387.06,"text":"請內委員"},{"start":7413.313,"end":7420.179,"text":"我認為公平會內各單位都應該重視我們剛剛提出來這些問題不是單一主委重視或委員重視"},{"start":7421.92,"end":7422.28,"text":"好其他委員好"},{"start":7448.713,"end":7453.956,"text":"本席的提案是第55案那針對我們這個前面講了很多就是我們的公平會面去嚴格去執行讓不管是我們的外送平台還是隨不時的廣告都沒有辦法去解決這個有效去執行他的工作讓整個資訊產業的系統上都沒有有效能的來做一個分析在這方面的話我們希望"},{"start":7477.15,"end":7495.248,"text":"公平會應該要提高你的工作效率而且請主委你的底下這麼多屬下的工作上應該有很多的方面都可以去方方面面可以執行的部分希望你要去嚴格監督去執行到最底層好不好好那請主委說明"},{"start":7495.708,"end":7522.726,"text":"那因為這個計畫是完全是用在資訊系統的建置包括治安的維護那這個網站的服務品質還有舊系統的更新這其實是在整個行政系統政府部門資訊系統的費用是很重要的一環所以是不是建議委員能夠不要檢驗因為這是要做產業調查分析要做網站、治安各方面的維護"},{"start":7524.619,"end":7524.639,"text":"委員長"},{"start":7545.444,"end":7572.282,"text":"你不要拐我們啊你這個項目有兩個一個資訊業務以及經濟分析產業資料管理啊對不對你千萬不要說我的預算比較少我們不用又去要用比較的你連你們有成績你們都不拿出來我還給你鼓勵你們應該要給國人知道給大家拍拍手對不對那如果連這個你還有意見要不要審這份預算"},{"start":7573.923,"end":7573.943,"text":"請內委員"},{"start":7600.98,"end":7629.228,"text":"我的看法是說你的這些案件的部分其實績效上是看的是越來越那個了那你如果要做這些經費你也要告訴我們那到底你要更新什麼你要做什麼樣的事務為什麼會影響到那另外我講到這件事情上面我還是想到全公平會內部大家都是一樣的都應該重視這個問題你的資訊相關的一些資訊業務跟你的經濟分析到底有沒有符合到你現在主要大家人民關係的項目上"},{"start":7629.808,"end":7656.247,"text":"還是你都只是在做你例行性的一些事務我認為除了例行性以外你要更加重你的力氣跟資源在我們大家人民所關心的事務上這樣才達到目的啦不是除了在那邊一直被罵或者是委員們一直被罵然後各出事沒有什麼問題我認為要大家一起共同來解決這個問題所以我還是建議要著以刪減跟凍結好請陳立飛委員主委其實"},{"start":7657.867,"end":7672.129,"text":"我看齁,審過那麼多的單位齁公平會應該是被意見最多的為什麼?因為大家覺得說公平會的功能完全沒有彰顯"},{"start":7673.598,"end":7690.226,"text":"你原本你是要跟消費者跟民眾站在一起可是你並沒有凸顯到這樣的一個態勢出來所以原本這個資訊大家會擔心啊你們的資訊是不是落後了你們的資訊是不是能夠與時俱進"},{"start":7693.638,"end":7720.465,"text":"所以這些錢給你們你們真的有發揮到你們可以幫忙民眾去發聲甚至去幫民眾去伸張正義的一個角度嗎?如果公平會沒有這樣的一個態度難怪有一些不肖的業者會越來越猖狂然後當他們越來越猖狂受害是誰?消費者"},{"start":7722.97,"end":7747.148,"text":"所以這是我們現在為什麼今天說的委員會認為你公平會實在是應該要大整頓當時候主委來你不是就是這樣子給大家期待嗎你講的當時候在說你來到我們公平會你怎麼樣的一個期待跟期許你也講的非常"},{"start":7749,"end":7777.457,"text":"給大家很多的希望可是你進到這個單位以來為什麼給大家看到的是你反而是被這個單位的舊成科全部去改變而不是你改變公平會所以我認為說今天如果沒有檢列沒有凍結的話好像你們覺得反正就是這樣子啊然後黃一黃就過了啊然後再質詢被講一講就過了啊"},{"start":7779.56,"end":7795.426,"text":"主委認為應該要檢列也要凍結好,現在我也沒有意見欸,前面的主決議好了嗎?好好,那我們就來處理51案到58案我們全案凍結50萬、檢列50萬"},{"start":7799.052,"end":7825.924,"text":"委員我說明一下因為剛才委員關心這個資訊系統到底在做哪一些那首先有謝謝各位委員對我個人的期許那事實上這4年這4年來我們對於整個查處的動作不管是不動產不動產的不實廣告以及聯合結合行為其實我有都會督促同仁努力去查處那過去也確實有一些重大案件都是在我們努力之下有去完成那這裡說"},{"start":7828.786,"end":7835.733,"text":"資訊系統要做的業務我們再跟回答楊委員報告委員那資訊系統的經費事實上是佔這項經費的90%所以這項經費大部分都是在做後勤的資訊系統"},{"start":7843.482,"end":7849.531,"text":"包括資安的提升、系統的更新、相關設備機房的恢復、同時更換電腦、構置相關軟硬體、小軟體。這個經費是非常的緊縮,資訊經費的部分只有500萬左右,如果簡略"},{"start":7859.906,"end":7860.206,"text":"委員會主管"},{"start":7876.971,"end":7877.171,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":7894.824,"end":7916.902,"text":"那凍結數可以提高一點沒關係這個部分真的非常的緊縮因為我們所有的資訊經費也都要先報到行政院主席總書做治安的統一審核這個經費來講的話在各部會來講是非常的緊縮的能不能真的拜託主席跟各位委員真的是非常的緊這個別的項目可能很難講那資訊業務真的這個500萬的資訊業務對公平會來講是非常重要的拜託"},{"start":7924.241,"end":7928.043,"text":"好我們現在就51案到58案我們凍結80萬減劣30萬好現在我們來處理主決議那客戶我們自己 客戶自調好主決議第59案遵照辦理通過第60案"},{"start":7954.417,"end":7977.957,"text":"遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦"},{"start":7989.042,"end":8006.808,"text":"66之一案請公平會就近5年內國際交流重點及成果提出書面報告送立法院經濟委員會及各委員會辦公室簽讀完畢"},{"start":8013.308,"end":8013.588,"text":"主席66支議案通過"},{"start":8042.595,"end":8065.88,"text":"現在我們休息五分鐘那個主席我可不可以再要休息以前我再講一下那個主委能不能待會告訴我們你那個什麼時候準博你那個日期大概會在什麼時候你講一個3月21日會有沒有可能提早我想要聽到這個訊息因為你之前本期在經濟委員會在我們這個委員會跟你討論你跟我講"},{"start":8071.121,"end":8090.962,"text":"希望愛在你的認知到底以前你會努力那你現在又弄一個3月21號那到底是怎麼回事那我現在退而求其次會不會在你宣布的3月21號提前"},{"start":8093.442,"end":8106.348,"text":"因為沒有一個這個案子這麼重大全國都在注意而且你自己的橫向的部會政府的部會都已經很清楚的告訴你他們的立場"},{"start":8107.864,"end":8124.016,"text":"那你這個托我也不希望大家認為是為了你的人事權來卡關我覺得我也不希望你這樣被污衊啊 對不對那你公然也在經濟委員會也告訴我也不只告訴我告訴我們其他的委員啊"},{"start":8125.578,"end":8142.563,"text":"你表示你的負責任啊那什麼理由會讓你轉這麼大的彎呢而且還要製造社會大眾對你的質疑我覺得行政部門不該如此吧對不對到底有什麼貓膩在啊"},{"start":8145.1,"end":8170.792,"text":"我當然不希望你被誣衊嘛但是你的這個責任跟你的在之前我們覺得非常有但是當你宣布之後人事案提出之後你宣布如此讓我們不知所措所以我希望大家可以聽到你的方向好 謝謝委員我等一下可以跟各位再做說明"},{"start":8174.224,"end":8175.15,"text":"謝謝,現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8490.858,"end":8515.887,"text":"繼續開會現在來審查114年度反托斯拉基金預算提案請李主委"},{"start":8521.359,"end":8530.211,"text":"主席 我先補充一下主席 你要發言以前 我要告訴你為什麼我一直很堅持希望知道因為我們影響到將近15萬的外送員"},{"start":8537.538,"end":8554.324,"text":"的一個權益也影響到十幾萬家的電商也影響到我們整個社會對公平會的一個信賴度所以我真的希望陳如你之前所說的這個方向請做說明"},{"start":8555.858,"end":8582.655,"text":"謝謝委員給我機會我再講清楚一點我們的結合案件文件齊備後算30天如果沒有做決定就是自動就准的意思就是它就可以結合了所以這個期限是在12月19日那我們對於結合的申請案一方面聽社會的意見一方面也要給參與結合事業復本達跟烏貝易也要說明的機會那因為它是在總部是在國外所以它"},{"start":8582.975,"end":8605.913,"text":"我們跟他聯繫的結果最早能夠到台灣說明的時間是12月17日17日離19日只有兩天那當然公平會要先言再說17日到19日只有兩天如果我們沒有言19日可能就過了你這個說法我跟你補充我們從3月份就開始"},{"start":8606.874,"end":8635.635,"text":"而不是等到12月17日如果你以12月對阿如果你以12月17號他們才來我等他才來我們的時間點半年是在12月19你以這個理由來作為準伯延後我不認同我們一直在跟你說從3月份民間一直在講民間一直在講你隔了半年所以我也不去追究之前到底怎麼回事我還是希望聽到答案"},{"start":8637.076,"end":8658.829,"text":"委員我們文件齊備這當中要聽各界的意見那各界的意見的整合到11月我們也要讓副編大哥伊貝爾說我們外界有這麼多人在關心你怎麼說所以沒有辦法說他一申請我就請他來表示意見一定是把所有公平會收集好的資料所有的疑問"},{"start":8659.71,"end":8670.397,"text":"最後請他來表示意見那這件事17號17號離19號只有兩天如果作業時間來不及他就結合去了所以我們先再一次跟你說"},{"start":8671.943,"end":8691.189,"text":"我再一次跟你說如果你以這個理由只有兩天所以我才來延長準播我告訴你已經告訴你了這個我們沒有辦法接受因為之前從3月份民間一直到5月正式一直到你資料11月啊所以你不要再誤導社會"},{"start":8692.449,"end":8692.829,"text":"主委 而且"},{"start":8712.242,"end":8732.52,"text":"而且就是說你如果延期也不應該延到這麼長啊是不是應該延到你這一任的任期一月底以前因為你沒有必要做這麼就是說延到這麼長那會讓人家認為說你是不是為了說下一任的任期你要說明清楚"},{"start":8733.513,"end":8733.853,"text":"好 謝謝主委 我們拭目以待"},{"start":8751.128,"end":8779.245,"text":"在你借期借滿錢告訴我們答案準博與否謝謝我會努力努力在任期借滿錢去促成這件事但是還要看委員會討論的情形謝謝我這個答案我們回看這個答案可以了好主委就是要清楚的答覆委員委員就會全力支持好等會你的說明盡量朝這個方向"},{"start":8781.53,"end":8788.476,"text":"好,我們現在來處理那個反托斯拉基金的預算在第67到70案我們併案來,請先說明"},{"start":8793.971,"end":8817.207,"text":"反托拉斯基金計畫最主要是我們辦理檢舉違法聯合就是聯合行為的檢舉獎金這是第一個第二個我們是推動國際競爭法這個資料庫資料庫的建置還有執法機關的合作那最主要是在這幾個業務方面有需要這樣的預算"},{"start":8823.305,"end":8845.894,"text":"我們請陳昌明委員李主委今天主要是反托拉斯基金但是我看來看去我有些看不懂要跟你請教那是為經濟的競爭政策這個我了解的研究但是你裡面有提到倡議的計畫什麼叫倡議的計畫你倡議的內容是什麼"},{"start":8851.319,"end":8868.829,"text":"創意就是一個宣導齁然後在競爭法的這些業務方面去廣為周知最主要是做這樣的業務我這樣還聽不懂你創意需要創意什麼你的主題在哪裡你給我講一下我給你了解一下不然這樣三天不算什麼"},{"start":8872.219,"end":8873.761,"text":"為什麼問這個問題?因為我覺得怪怪的。"},{"start":8895.902,"end":8921.811,"text":"我們臺美二十四季貿易倡議他用一個貿易倡議這個名詞我就覺得怪怪的好像隱藏了什麼那現在通過五項通過五項裡面最重要有一點服務業國內的規章服務業國內的規章包括你托拉斯是獨佔結合聯合的選舉決止限制的競爭的一個選委賽"},{"start":8923.692,"end":8925.192,"text":"委員會主管：反托拉斯基金"},{"start":8944.958,"end":8965.78,"text":"台灣應該把他收的錢你們結果變成一個投資我現在啊我跟你講我會怕這個啦因為我怎麼不敢不怎麼敢相信你們公平交易委員會世界各國都把他們溝通的事情都把他限制都已經把他處罰了都取得賠償款可能偉大的台灣"},{"start":8968.384,"end":8989.329,"text":"說沒有關係你這個賠償我可以當作 那個這邊的投資來算我阿伯你嫁到我也來台灣投資一下 你就不會給我發壓嘛所以我為什麼是聯想到這樣每一個委員都很關心 抵德黨那外國大國的那個壓力跟誘惑嘛"},{"start":8990.23,"end":9005.739,"text":"我真的大家都很懷疑啦所謂每個委員都在關於這個你也趕快做一個決定啦阿你剛剛講說什麼退休我聽不懂因為嘿他們講說退休以前會把這個事情你有那麼早那麼退休嗎"},{"start":9007.099,"end":9027.367,"text":"我的任期是到明年的1月31日那是我們還沒投票的一個 阿如果我們投票你通過的話 仍然可以繼續阿還是 阿不然我不知道你說你退休以前我這樣什麼都沒有因為因為31是任期 任期到齁 那是我續任還要各位委員"},{"start":9029.088,"end":9048.839,"text":"我們要有擔當的作為大家都很怕兩個結尾下來獨佔台灣好不好我是講的很真心的話不要像以前高通的案件一樣把你們應該懲罰的賠償你們把它改為投資案世界上唯一這個台灣的政府才這麼做"},{"start":9051.095,"end":9057.597,"text":"實在很讓人遺憾、氣硬我一直強調區域公園業的一年預算才200多億、230幾億你切個乘以30就210億我們把公園業一年的預算給高通去到處去挖角"},{"start":9068.021,"end":9068.621,"text":"請問秋瑩委員你有提案"},{"start":9097.269,"end":9121.695,"text":"改成主決議是第70案改主決議好本期的提案是69案這個我們要強化反托拉斯這個執行的這個計畫在這個績效上我們看到有兩項分別是聯合行為的調查還有個每年參加反托拉斯的這個整個宣傳活動的人數這些兩項指標"},{"start":9123.775,"end":9132.806,"text":"的經費但是我們看到整個整體的預算他並沒有凸顯出這個整個績效的指標性所以有必要性要來做個調整請請主委回答"},{"start":9140.093,"end":9161.721,"text":"這個計畫除了這個檢舉獎金以外我們其實還包括建置一些競爭法的資料庫國際的執法經驗以及國際的有關於執行競爭的一些資料我們需要建置一些資料庫那才能夠跟國際接軌那我想這是在整個執行執法所必要的一個"},{"start":9162.521,"end":9191.573,"text":"可是你的整個調查的聯合辦的調查案件結案數只有50件那你宣傳活動人大概300人次而已啦但是你整體的這個預算11.31%的部分在這裡面的在有這個站在這裡面的執行計畫所以整個績效是沒有完整的來呈現出來我們的宣導應該各地都有宣導不管在國內或國外這個用到的需求是說明一下"},{"start":9193.946,"end":9222.049,"text":"報告委員這一部分的那個績效指標是我們在整個案這個用到反托拉斯基金裡面所做的一些宣導那其實我們在其他活動裡面也有做很多的宣導那這個反托拉斯的宣導是特別針對說國際性的一些反托拉斯案件介紹給國內的業者知道說以免他們到國際上去做生意的時候會違反國家其他國家的反托拉斯法所以那個部分是放300個人當作我們的指標來當作一個努力的方向他的對象"},{"start":9224.289,"end":9224.769,"text":"主席是"},{"start":9256.394,"end":9281.483,"text":"第71也是在反托拉斯裡面的一個計畫就是我們針對執法針對守法做一些宣導跟廣宣那72是我們做一些補助譬如說我們學生的論文補助在反托拉斯的部分在跟競爭法有關的論文予以補助"},{"start":9285.929,"end":9299.202,"text":"本來是我們直接是審71跟72是不一樣的案子那諸位一起解釋了那71案是張家俊委員的提案我們就照列72案72案我們預算也照列好那我們現在處理是73案到78案"},{"start":9320.936,"end":9347.067,"text":"80是研究數位競爭的議題那也包括我們購置國內外的研究報告另外還有不實廣告的監控跟查處請委員支持好主席我的是77案我改成主決議好77案7委員改成主決議那本席的提案是第80案這個80案的話我們看到"},{"start":9349.158,"end":9355.642,"text":"70案為主決議,其他的預算我們照列"},{"start":9369.383,"end":9387.8,"text":"接下來是79-80案請說明79-80就是我剛剛也提到就是我們在數位時代下一些不實廣告的查處因應數位經濟下的廣告的查處那我們主要是在網路上監控等等有一些需要的支出"},{"start":9389.104,"end":9389.284,"text":"主席"},{"start":9411.69,"end":9412.851,"text":"主委有沒有進一步的說明我想謝謝委員的期許"},{"start":9442.02,"end":9443.563,"text":"7月9日至8月20日 凍結100萬 書面報告 使得凍資"},{"start":9457.222,"end":9477.632,"text":"現在我們就來處理主決議主決議的第81案遵照辦理遵照辦理通過第82案遵照辦理遵照辦理通過第83案遵照辦理遵照辦理通過第84案遵照辦理遵照辦理通過第85案"},{"start":9479.434,"end":9497.96,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟委員會第1屆第2會期經濟"},{"start":9503.578,"end":9513.157,"text":"第85案專案報告改成書面報告文字修正通過請先讀協商結論"},{"start":9515.984,"end":9535.687,"text":"第一案預算照列本案改為主決議第二案預算照列本案改為主決議第三案預算照列本案改為主決議第四至二十案凍結一百萬元提出書面報告經同意後使得凍資其中第十案十一案十二案均改為主決議"},{"start":9537.128,"end":9555.291,"text":"第二十一至三十二案簡列五十萬元科目自行調整令凍結五十萬元提出書面報告經同意後使得動之第三十三至三十五案凍結五十萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第三十六至四十七案"},{"start":9556.292,"end":9568.04,"text":"簡略20萬元科目自行調整令凍結50萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第48至50案凍結100萬元提出書面報告經同意後使得凍資第51至58案簡略30萬元科目自行調整令凍結80萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":9580.709,"end":9589.681,"text":"主決議部分59案到66案及新增66至1案均照案通過第67至70案凍結200萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資其中70案改為主決議"},{"start":9595.729,"end":9618.29,"text":"第71案預算照列第72案預算照列第73至78案預算照列其中77案改為主決議第79、80案凍結100萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資主決議部分81至84案照案通過85案修正通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":9621.564,"end":9646.659,"text":"請問各位同仁有沒有委員的提案部分剛才在宣讀的協商結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列或是隨同調整請請問有無異議沒有異議好通過沒有異議通過那本次通過之決議文字授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":9649.644,"end":9659.919,"text":"114年度公平會單位預算及反托拉斯基金均審查完整本日議程處理完整12月25日繼續開會現在休息"}]}},{"id":"158356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98b13a7f96dfaa2bb8108faf295b3adfb33f3b130ad1831afd902e5fb76f63ae845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:01:42 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那現場的專家跟團體代表大家早安我是立法委員張雅琳那首先呢我想要先來跟大家來討論一個非常重要的概念到底什麼叫做自我保護尤其在數位時代我們從過去一直都在告訴孩子你要好好保護好你自己到現在如果我們在數位時代還是要用這一套好好保護你自己的概念的時候會造成什麼樣子的問題"},{"start":34.555,"end":34.655,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":53.018,"end":53.198,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":71.187,"end":71.587,"text":"張雅琳 張雅琳 張雅琳"},{"start":98.85,"end":123.145,"text":"讓這個孩子這些男性的青少年呢飽受困擾因為他們有一個很大的煎熬在於說我是個男生欸我怎麼沒辦法保護我自己天啊我講出去可以被人笑死天啊我不能跟我爸爸媽媽講結果就變成是什麼所有的憂鬱痛苦全部自己吞下來了那他也陳述了一個數字是很高比例的男性他們走上自殺這條路"},{"start":125.832,"end":153.192,"text":"所以我想用這個案例來告訴大家講保護自己的這個概念是應該是我自己會認為我們應該是保護小孩吧保護小孩才是我們的責任怎麼會讓小孩保護自己是他自己的責任呢因為這就會輪入到剛剛那個縣經理他覺得他自己好像沒有做好糟糕 我覺得我可能會被爸爸媽媽罵結果最後他求助無門所以我自己會認為整個概念我們都應該要回到去強化身體自主權在沒有人經過你的同意之前"},{"start":154.033,"end":165.475,"text":"沒有得到同意之前沒有人可以碰觸你或是要求你做任何事情而這樣的概念要持續的延伸到我們學校的教育裡面以及我們的數位的教育裡面"},{"start":167.099,"end":167.399,"text":"教育是解方"},{"start":197.659,"end":225.028,"text":"一個很重要的但是他們真的知道如何辨識網路上的惡意嗎?他們沒有辦法欸他們雖然從小很會滑手機可是他們缺乏相對的數位隱私的意識所以呢我想在在座現場也有非常多第一現場的老師你可能常常看到他們在滑手機可能滑手機的時間超過於看書的時間那我也不想要說老師知不知道"},{"start":225.928,"end":229.211,"text":"教育部在2023年公布了《數位時代媒體素養教育白皮書》其中明確地指出當前的媒體素養教育三大課題"},{"start":245.464,"end":268.255,"text":"有三件第一個學習辨識假訊息正確使用短影音以及最後一個強化網路的各自安全我想這是不僅是台灣的問題這是全球性的問題尤其是現在AI帶來技術的飛躍有非常多的defect的訊息傳播與變形的風險都會讓我們的孩子面臨前所未有的困境與壓力"},{"start":270.243,"end":292.765,"text":"我其實非常多次的質詢就是要求我們的教育部應該設立對於兒少數位隱私的教育課程認知數位環境中的潛在威脅並且學會識別和防範二意的行為我們的目標應該是要放在讓孩子在接觸網路世界時有效減少傷害以及對於家長和教育工作者提供相關的數位教育培訓"},{"start":294.086,"end":321.807,"text":"讓他們能夠敏感的覺察兒少面臨的風險並且提供及時的引導跟協助我必須坦白說啦過去學校在這塊教育上面其實是並沒有全面到位的包含衛福部的家庭教育也都沒有那同時呢雖然發了這個白皮書但是有告訴老師怎麼做嗎好,好是什麼其實是一無所知的就變成是讓老師們自己去發展但是很多老師是感到無所適從的"},{"start":324.24,"end":347.89,"text":"上禮拜五我們有一個非常激烈的國會爭鬥之後呢 隔天我也是去出席了跟台北市小學家養聯合會以及方班教育協會我們一起來討問數位公民的素養如何幫孩子辨識網路的這些惡意那我們當時就問了家長你知道你很多的孩子網路上面會參加一個聊天室嗎大多數的家長都不知道"},{"start":350.32,"end":377.966,"text":"所以我覺得這其實我們在做相關的課程設計的時候應該要回到真實的情境而不是一個想像的情境像我現在我的孩子那天就跟我說媽媽我們去助理館的時候如果你們出去買東西的話我會非常緊張我說為什麼我說你們都關起來你為什麼非常緊張因為我發現陌生人來開門的時候陌生人來敲我門的時候我會非常害怕然後或者是說他就跟我說因為老師跟他們講說陌生人很可怕"},{"start":379.113,"end":388.499,"text":"但是大家知道嗎,大多數的犯罪案件,如果是性犯罪的話,大多數都是家內性侵"},{"start":389.813,"end":415.042,"text":"所以我覺得我們所有的教育課程設計都必須回應到現實環境才能夠真正的幫助我們孩子具備這樣子的能力那最後呢我想要讓大家也知道一個訊息就是說在上個禮拜的這個限訴法通過之後呢我們的憲法法庭等時同癱瘓了在國民黨跟民眾黨的聯手之下未來近十年來其實有七百名的"},{"start":415.962,"end":417.364,"text":"希望大家一起來關心這件事 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/22e1e1eefcdc7a98174c447552ae96c7108faf295b3adfb37ce0c98ed2985ad7ec6f0a0ad4d1e0835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:39:02 - 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因應數位時代但是我們的通篇的報告其實是沒有針對數位時代來去做具體聚焦的回應"},{"start":35.854,"end":60.417,"text":"我沒有不忍心強烈的苛責但是今天的主題既然性別平等教育大家都認為重要過去20年大家一起在努力推動但是為什麼今天還要再討論其實最重點在於是數位時代那我們要先講數位時代的特性是什麼我自己整理了幾點可能跟我們第一線的教育工作者大家一起來分享數位時代第一它有匿名性"},{"start":61.358,"end":86.523,"text":"網路上有很多討論他是存在匿名性的第二線上討論他沒有時間限制離開了教育現場環境之後回到地方回到任何環境只要有網路上還是可以持續討論所以他是24小時的第三他沒有地域性網路無遠弗屆所以有可能北中南甚至國內國外都會在特定議題上面有做討論以及第四"},{"start":87.483,"end":88.103,"text":"公聽會：洪孟楷公聽會：洪孟楷"},{"start":111.089,"end":111.409,"text":"公聽會：洪孟楷"},{"start":131.702,"end":147.249,"text":"我今天比較認為是在數位時代裡面性別教育有幾個部分是我們可以給不管是學生不管是給老師更多支持鼓勵以及讓他們有更精進的一個空間的地方首先數位涵養跟媒體的事變"},{"start":148.109,"end":175.76,"text":"培養辨識以及抵抗刻板印象的一個能力其實我們在網路上常常看到有很多是歧視議題的討論而這些歧視議題的討論其實就如同我剛剛所講的數位時代是有其匿名性也因此本來平常時間沒有會出現的這種性別暴力或是性別對待但是在網路上很有可能因為匿名的關係而產生而雖然我們已經有在性別平等教育法裡面有規範"},{"start":177.25,"end":206.501,"text":"但是在數位時代下面應該進一步把網路謠言、假訊息、影音操作都納入性別平等教育尤其是透過真實的案例譬如說過去到現在層出不窮的網路霸凌、跟騷或是像D-FAC等相關的技術都說明性別權益有可能被侵害的方式來教導、引導以及預防如何未來遇到這樣的狀況產生我們有辨識的抗壓能力第二個部分"},{"start":210.754,"end":212.957,"text":"公聽會：洪孟楷公聽會：洪孟楷公聽會：洪孟楷公聽會：洪孟楷"},{"start":228.157,"end":228.637,"text":"公聽會．啟動性別平等教育2.0"},{"start":251.135,"end":252.136,"text":"公聽會員：洪孟楷公聽會員：洪孟楷"},{"start":270.785,"end":298.262,"text":"來協助做一個快速有效的通報機制那並且我們也要教導學生認識數位人權其實孟楷從2020年進來到立法院之後一直在推動性私密影像防護法那雖然最後我們沒有做一個專法而是散落在各不同的法令但其宗旨都是一樣的就是我們希望能夠加強不管是男生男性不管是女性任何人都有自己的身體的一個自主權"},{"start":298.982,"end":321.805,"text":"而即便是拍攝了性私密影像只要不同意散佈你就無權任何人都無權散佈並且我們擁有身體影像的下架權但是大家也知道數位時代真的只要一上網之後你說要用公部門的力量私部門的力量把性私密影像完全給下架真的不容易"},{"start":322.005,"end":324.447,"text":"公聽會：洪孟楷公聽會：洪孟楷公聽會：洪孟楷"},{"start":346.397,"end":365.965,"text":"我看了一下今天教育部給我們的所有報告其實裡面都還是有做到啦我想次長也不要一個苦瓜臉啦好像我開宗明義其實我還是站在鼓勵的角度我想我們今天既然開一個公聽會聚焦要在數位時代那就代表過去大家做的已經有一定的成效"},{"start":366.725,"end":368.126,"text":"公聽會．啟動性別平等教育2.0"},{"start":390.498,"end":418.392,"text":"我還是強調數位時代是我們共同人類大家一起面對的一個方向而沒有辦法逆的一個情況下我們唯有更打好體質做好基本的事變能力以及保護的狀態才能夠讓我們的學童從校園進入到職場進入到社會的時候他有一個清楚明白的認知我想這也才是真真正正讓性別平等教育能夠落實在台灣落實在中華民國落實在"},{"start":418.732,"end":419.053,"text":"詞曲 李宗盛"},{"start":429.927,"end":431.389,"text":"公聽會：洪孟楷公聽會：洪孟楷"},{"start":449.631,"end":462.754,"text":"感謝大家我們一起努力有任何需要的地方我們也一起來推進那比較抱歉我因為今天行程的關係還是會在辦公室來聆聽各位先進的發言那也請各位先進不吝指教謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16407","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16407","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddf4489611fe8f3d298336e09a559573a46d1319bf84c91682dc16a63294a72c935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算。\n二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算。\n三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建設管理基金分預算。\n四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。\n五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部數位產業署單位預算。\n【12月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-23","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-23T08:31:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-23T17:38:00+08:00","duration":32776,"影片長度":"09:06:16","委員發言時間":"08:31:44 - 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112年度決算案"},{"start":2443.622,"end":2464.917,"text":"比112年度的預算增加了26億就是誠如剛才郡縣等委員所提的這種狀況這個預算編列是過於保守那為符合預算的實際執行狀況那是應該要增加該項的預算那我提示一議以上"},{"start":2467.781,"end":2468.162,"text":"李卿哲議員"},{"start":2477.873,"end":2494.946,"text":"是,那針對這個既然費稅率變略的這個部分我想大概跟各位我們報告一下大概就是說從112年到這個114年的部分的話那其實在114年的話我們自己增加了8.75億那所以從這個112年的這個稅率到這個114年的話其實這三年大概總共增略了32.25億"},{"start":2506.715,"end":2507.976,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2526.095,"end":2545.761,"text":"那所以在扣掉這些相關電動車輛的一個這個部分的話也有相當的一個免徵的一個數量所以我想是不是建議就這個陣列這個1億元這個來做明年的一個這個預算以上做一個簡單的報告"},{"start":2547.418,"end":2572.423,"text":"好那交通部這邊有說明就是說因為那個電動車的數量有在增加那是不是照著原來的傳統的車輛數量會有下降比例上就是有消漲所以建議在這個部分增業以億元那不曉得各位有沒有什麼意見還是我們就照交通部的一個建議"},{"start":2575.066,"end":2577.577,"text":"使用規費收入、汽車燃料使用費為1億元"},{"start":2582.524,"end":2603.989,"text":"二十億也有十億的也有五億的那為什麼要提現在他們每年徵收是二十八億以上所以這個預算當然啦因為如果徵類的話因為他是二十八億到三十二億左右那如果是取得一個剛剛不是競選獎五億是吧"},{"start":2609.063,"end":2614.228,"text":"在過去交通委員會我們一般都會尊重召委的才事當然在相關的這個要增加相關的規費收入"},{"start":2638.428,"end":2641.151,"text":"請交通部再說明一下,讓趙偉做最後的採視。"},{"start":2646.821,"end":2669.097,"text":"這個部分我再跟委員報告一下剛剛講說除了明年這個電動車輛會這個到府這個增加之外其實包括市場的預測都一樣那另外我再跟委員報告一個重點其實每年應徵未徵就是說這一個這一個還要放到隔壘區徵的就是民眾部角的部分其實一年大概有十五十年"},{"start":2669.717,"end":2670.998,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2691.846,"end":2693.827,"text":"公路總局同仁入戶增加"},{"start":2721.045,"end":2727.39,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2745.925,"end":2747.986,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2764.65,"end":2783.49,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":2783.49,"end":2805.981,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":2806.241,"end":2808.603,"text":"第8案稅出通案業務費水電費提案"},{"start":2835.703,"end":2858.75,"text":"研究發展空間10%。好來謝謝主席那針對於退出這個項架的一個水電費事實上在我上個禮拜的一個審議的過程因為我知道整個這個政府的各部會很多的部會都大幅去增加水電費事實上對民眾我覺得有一點那個剝奪感"},{"start":2860.35,"end":2883.456,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":2884.824,"end":2897.912,"text":"好,那麼請交通部這邊說明這邊跟委員報告我們交通部在部分部在過去10年一直是部會的節電的自由生我們到現在為止還是維持在104年的EUI值"},{"start":2901.394,"end":2922.319,"text":"昨年這兩年我們在那個電費調漲上面因為沒辦法去扣合我們的預算編列像112年漲的漲幅我們是高壓用戶漲幅達26%那所以那一年我們的預算又被捅3所以我們到了9月份的時候這個電費就已經出現了缺口"},{"start":2922.859,"end":2941.973,"text":"那今年4月1號又漲了16%那我們現在編的也不過是比去年多120幾萬所以再加上我們還有主改增加了將近80幾位同仁所以這用電在今年是勢必會增加的所以我這邊也懇請委員能夠讓我們維持這個編列以上 謝謝"},{"start":2948.459,"end":2950.62,"text":"水電費支出水電費支出"},{"start":2978.439,"end":3000.964,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3001.044,"end":3005.846,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":3029.598,"end":3030.199,"text":"韓國瑜主席韓國瑜主席"},{"start":3057.378,"end":3074.668,"text":"檢討非必要的委辦計劃對於相關委辦的規劃重要性及未來預計的成果都應該要清楚的說明。這個部分我是提案三減一千萬、凍結10%、另外凍結10%提出書面後解凍以上"},{"start":3080.253,"end":3081.514,"text":"李昆哲議員法定預算2.28億元,新的一年4.1億元"},{"start":3101.596,"end":3101.796,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3125.031,"end":3153.988,"text":"許多計畫都需要協辦因為人力不足我覺得目前很多的單位大概最嚴重應該是數位部就是透過尾半費來增加人力我覺得這個是完全不認同的我們這麼多年來精簡公務人力然後很有成效人事行政總處也是說自己怎麼不得了結果弄了半天用尾半費而且規定要駐場人員我想交通部可能還算少的"},{"start":3154.568,"end":3173.341,"text":"不要看數據請你來一到三人來幫忙變成我們承辦人員的小祕書這個部分在很多部會很明顯很明顯那我相信交通部委辦的一個費增加82%我覺得沒有說得很清楚所以我這邊的一個提案是3減1.5億凍結10%提專案報告使得動之謝謝"},{"start":3179.282,"end":3198.045,"text":"邱若驊委員提出第13案,因為看到交通部已經在道路交通安全中的一般事務費編列宣傳費,現在又在業務費中的委辦費編列宣傳費,本行認為宣傳費不宜編列太多,所以要求減列300萬。"},{"start":3199.346,"end":3224.581,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基"},{"start":3227.683,"end":3252.728,"text":"好,稍微各位委員好,簡單跟各位委員報告,因為剛委員所提到說這個委判會是增加人力,事實上在交通部不是,因為就以智慧運輸系統這個計畫來說,因為科技日新月異,所以需要透過這樣的計畫去找到在科技更多元的人才來幫助我們做前瞻的研究等等,制定這個標準還有相關的這個政策跟法制。"},{"start":3253.228,"end":3272.69,"text":"那以114年來說我們除了要做我們現在在整個跨部門跨部會都非常清楚的運輸資料的整合流通服務TTX這個平台我們收了公共運輸等等包括Google的旅運規劃的公共運輸各位可能有用到這都是來藉機我們部裡面的TTX"},{"start":3273.191,"end":3294.056,"text":"另外在114年我們還要做車鏈網的實證的這個部分透過AI的這些先進的技術來降低入口衝突的這個部分另外對於我們非常重視人本部長非常重視人本所以我們會營造在114年會營造弱勢用路人在包括市上同胞在搭公車過馬路這一塊還有"},{"start":3296.738,"end":3298.4,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3311.476,"end":3334.497,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3334.737,"end":3343.123,"text":"您所關心的這個所謂的道路交通安全這一塊是強調宣導用路人風險意識跟法規用路智能這有所不同以上說明"},{"start":3345.745,"end":3359.572,"text":"好,謝謝我們交通部這邊的說明。那有關第9到13案,那就是有委員提刪減1億5千萬,凍結10%。還有李委員刪減1千萬加凍結10%。那還有廖二委員提刪減1千萬加凍結870萬。還有我們邱若驊委員。"},{"start":3369.937,"end":3376.485,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":3384.754,"end":3390.516,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3412.345,"end":3412.505,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3427.443,"end":3429.685,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3445.776,"end":3447.417,"text":"檢略5千萬、凍結10%提專案報告有多少一座人力做駐場人員檢略5千萬"},{"start":3466.975,"end":3481.202,"text":"市長這邊再做一個補充你要講詳細一點這個項目裡面我特別報告裡面有一個新車那個新車安全這個平等計畫那這裡面這個零點的部分增加這個零點"},{"start":3482.563,"end":3485.205,"text":"公費出的部分只有4個車型,那明年回歸到"},{"start":3506.578,"end":3529.565,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3529.765,"end":3536.43,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3556.605,"end":3558.347,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":3576.823,"end":3592.681,"text":"主席,剛剛的盧委員關心那個部分,如果按照那個交通部的說明,主要是新業務那個車輛碰撞試驗嘛,你原本做四項變做為八項嘛,我知道我知道"},{"start":3594.122,"end":3594.142,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3611.46,"end":3612.722,"text":"光這個部分就會增加九千萬嗎?"},{"start":3627.952,"end":3628.993,"text":"有關交通部就是在114年這個業務費、委辦費這個部分"},{"start":3649.996,"end":3675.61,"text":"總預算是四億一千五百九十一萬三千元那我們向下還有就是三個委辦計劃那我們做一個通案就是科目的一個處理根據剛剛交通部的一個說明因為有新增計劃尤其是針對新車安全平等這個也是涉及到這個車輛的安全也是攸關我們每一個用用車人的一個安全問題"},{"start":3676.57,"end":3698.897,"text":"那這個ARTC我記得這個是好像前年才成立的一個測試嗎?從112年開始做這個平等的作業平等嘛112年我記得那時候好像開始營運的時候我有去出席那個典禮所以這個是蠻重要的一個計畫那本席在這邊還是做一個決議我們還是就是說在這個科目我們就是"},{"start":3704.559,"end":3715.364,"text":"決議還是3減500萬然後凍結10%然後科目自行調整那魯昭爾說要求做專案報告"},{"start":3717.623,"end":3738.229,"text":"書面報告書面報告那是不是召委可以,吳召委這邊可以同意。這樣的喔,謝謝主席啦。那我想每一個人的一個想法不一樣,你們我相信你們要去努力啦。但是那個這樣的一個成長的一個幅度啊,尤其在尾半飛這件事情,尾半飛在很多單位都是失控的。"},{"start":3738.729,"end":3760.196,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3760.616,"end":3784.114,"text":"主席,至少刪除兩千萬,然後做專案報告,好不好?不然就依徵求大家的意見,謝謝。因為他有一個新增計畫,就是這個安全平等他要做碰撞的一個測試。剛剛市長說明這是要時知時負啦。雖然這樣子啊,五招而已,不然就是"},{"start":3784.514,"end":3787.275,"text":"一億五千萬當然多,我還是建議最少要三億千萬。"},{"start":3806.881,"end":3808.763,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算"},{"start":3827.269,"end":3831.593,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3851.213,"end":3852.154,"text":"三減一千萬,凍結十趴,提書面報告"},{"start":3868.112,"end":3888.644,"text":"因為那時候那個開幕嘛我有去參觀他們有做實際的碰撞的測試讓我們整體的一個參觀我是可以做這樣的一個建議好 謝謝那我們科目就自行調整了就是9到13案就是3減1000萬凍結10%提書面報告然後科目自行調整然後第11案我們改主決議謝謝"},{"start":3899.452,"end":3916.351,"text":"接下我們處理第14到19案有關業務費一般事務費的部分那14到19案我們有6位委員有提案那是不是請提案委員有沒有要做說明的好我們請林俊憲委員謝謝"},{"start":3918.218,"end":3937.466,"text":"感謝主席本期第19案是我們交通部的道路交通安全業務費一般事務費這裏面有一個媒體政策和業務宣導費其實你明年的整體道安經費是減少減少15%但你整體經費減少裏面其中有一項"},{"start":3941.892,"end":3967.5,"text":"就是本席提的媒體政治案業務宣導費卻反而增加而且增加超過一倍你原本今年是編4725萬明年編了超過一億增加了5325億你整個科目的預算都這樣減少了為什麼媒體政治案業務宣導你明年要宣導什麼道路交通安全啊"},{"start":3968.916,"end":3969.076,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3993.188,"end":4016.695,"text":"來 謝謝主席針對這個一般事務費它裡面因為第一個我們跟前一年比較113年的預算大概1.46億那今年我們現在正在審議的預算大概2.2億再直接比較就增加了7357萬大概增幅高達50%所以增加的也不少"},{"start":4017.515,"end":4040.928,"text":"那我們特別的觀察這一般事務費的向下因為涵蓋了媒體宣傳、政策宣傳等等的宣傳費其實不瞞這個交通部這個我們事實上蠻關心這樣的一個宣傳這樣的一個情況所以在這樣的一個顧慮之下我個人的一個提案是針對於第14案我這邊簡列3000萬凍結10%以上"},{"start":4047.386,"end":4067.336,"text":"好,謝謝。然後還有沒有提案委員要做說明?好,廖先祥委員,再邱樂華委員,謝謝。好,謝謝。我個人提3.6千萬,那這可不跟剛剛林俊憲委員講的是一樣的,那就是預算的增幅超過了100%啦,那有點,有點浮邊的一個情況,所以才會提出這樣的建議,謝謝。"},{"start":4069.441,"end":4069.601,"text":"邱若驊委員"},{"start":4091.445,"end":4106.278,"text":"九點四十四啊那本席認為過多的宣傳費空有一作他的用途啊所以這邊提案簡列兩千六百六十二萬五千元好以上好謝謝邱委員那我們現在是不是請交通部這邊做一個說明謝謝"},{"start":4108.427,"end":4124.678,"text":"趙偉還有各位委員大家早安剛才委員關心的有關前面幾個案事實上在29到35案也是會談那個媒體政策跟業務先導費是不是建議到時候併那個案子來談不過這邊先跟委員報告就是說為什麼我們的"},{"start":4126.259,"end":4142.798,"text":"媒體政策跟業務先導非增加5325萬的原因我想大家都知道是說從112年到130年事實上我們整體的那個30死亡人數是有持續下降但是經過我們分析以後"},{"start":4143.419,"end":4165.174,"text":"在這裡面我們的防治重點機車佔了6成高齡者佔了4成那另外大家很關心的就是行人跟兒少這些弱勢用路人的這樣一個死亡的或是受傷的一個情況基於這樣一個考量我們雖然說從工程面我們目前有400億的案子繼續推動"},{"start":4165.934,"end":4189.381,"text":"但畢竟我們經過分析發現在國內有些道路交通事故主要還是來自於用路人的駕駛行為或是用路行為不當所造成的但是這樣要改變我們駕駛行為或是說我們要塑造優質的一個道路安全的文化需要時間及投入所以"},{"start":4189.801,"end":4204.63,"text":"在這樣的考量上我們基本上在明年度會從四個面向來加強宣導最主要是針對我們的高齡長輩我們知道我們高齡長輩在接觸相關的一個媒體"},{"start":4205.27,"end":4220.165,"text":"主要都是來自於電視或者是廣播尤其是電視的中午或者是八點熱門時段所以我們明年是希望能夠增加電視的一個宣導讓大家能夠來"},{"start":4224.909,"end":4250.983,"text":"更多層面的接觸這樣一個宣導廣告第二個當然機車的部分我們希望是說透過這樣一個網路的宣傳讓我們的機車使用尤其是年輕族群他的能夠接受到一些正確使用機車的一個風險風險此外對一些兒少我們也非常最重要的是還有一個是停讓文化的一個一個塑造我們很希望說透過這樣一個宣導"},{"start":4254.085,"end":4277.286,"text":"不管是我們的汽汽車使用人能夠停讓行人我們也同時會宣導就是說我們行人也要有正確的一個手法的觀念來減少這個事故基於以上的考量建議就是說我們這是免三檢然後並凍結十分之一改那個書面報告使得動之以上"},{"start":4279.008,"end":4280.109,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4299.138,"end":4325.572,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4325.872,"end":4353.17,"text":"現在討論的案子也放在後面這針對於媒體政策跟業務宣導費用不過這邊針對於這個在這一部分的一個宣導的一個費用我覺得也可以先來做處理那我個人覺得說說真的因為沒有信任感我覺得先要取得信任感之後未來在這個信任感上面再來做增加那我個人"},{"start":4354.211,"end":4373.287,"text":"還是堅持三減三千萬凍結百分之十以上?交通部這邊要不要再說?好,那廖先生想委員,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝趙委員。那其實交通部當然每年就已經有例行編列他們的媒體宣導的預算。"},{"start":4376.036,"end":4403.108,"text":"這些部分都是新編導我想他們過去也都有許多的一些宣導的業務啦只是說我就認為任何的一個宣導一定是他本身的宣導能夠讓民眾能夠留下深刻的印象才是最重要的而不是說去花錢買石段買那個傳道管道等等的啦我想一個有趣的廣告你有趣的話民眾甚至都會幫你轉傳你根本不用花錢去"},{"start":4403.968,"end":4431.713,"text":"去做一個新聞露出嘛你可能是應該是在製作上面能夠花一點多一點的心思讓這個廣告能夠升值人心才是更重要的啦那我想這個部分應該是過去的過去的成效就已經不是很好的那我們如何能相信我們增加的預算能夠得到我們的目的所以說我會建議就是維持大概跟去年差不多規模的預算去執行那以如果說成效良好的話需要再增加的話"},{"start":4433.254,"end":4452.992,"text":"往後年度再來講。以上。好。謝謝。那如果沒有其他委員有意見的話。請問主席。本席提的是第20還有23案。本席在這兩案的意見是依照目前兩案其實雙方的官方交流成效有限。"},{"start":4455.469,"end":4455.649,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4471.937,"end":4489.172,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4489.172,"end":4490.373,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":4506.101,"end":4521.954,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4523.605,"end":4536.258,"text":"如果是說委員是真的14到19的話我們是建議就三、五百萬三、五百萬好科目我們自行調整接五百萬交通部部長"},{"start":4542.915,"end":4543.415,"text":"政策宣傳媒體"},{"start":4564.482,"end":4564.522,"text":"委員委員長"},{"start":4579.58,"end":4607.604,"text":"所以我們今天砍完之後你還是增加你知道嗎你還是增加你沒有減少我們已經沒有做到那個說因為確實交通相關的建設需要宣導也沒有說整個整個去把它弄掉不理性嘛我們現在33000萬你比去年還是增加逐步讓我們來看看你這樣的一個宣傳費具體用在什麼成果出來的時候我相信明年一定會比較好好來說明啦"},{"start":4607.944,"end":4608.985,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4627.392,"end":4631.834,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":4652.984,"end":4679.832,"text":"相關的重大交通政策或是規則要公布的時候都至少要有半年以上的這樣的一個公關行動他們所謂的交通公關行動就是交通的宣導那其實我們本委員會所有的委員一再質疑的就是你們相關的宣傳的效果不彰所以對相關的預算大家就會有相當的質疑"},{"start":4680.672,"end":4694.952,"text":"那必須要提出更明確有效的作為就好像剛才應該是建豪委員所提的或者是明哲、佩翔他們所提的你要必須是要有有效的宣導有效宣導有時候"},{"start":4695.913,"end":4715.23,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4715.39,"end":4725.895,"text":"有時候交通委員會很認真的修訂一些交通規則因為交通部的宣導不力效率不彰宣導不夠的時候讓民眾對交通規則一時的改變無所適從"},{"start":4732.358,"end":4734.219,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4748.063,"end":4771.749,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4773.465,"end":4795.902,"text":"謝謝李昆澤委員的一個建議那在這邊做處理那本席先建議事實上有關交通安全都是每個委員甚至是每個鄉親都非常關注的一個議題尤其對於我們就是我們國內這幾年的那個就是意外死傷的人數竟然比"},{"start":4796.442,"end":4817.176,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4817.176,"end":4839.343,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4839.343,"end":4861.476,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4861.996,"end":4868.639,"text":"公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路"},{"start":4891.229,"end":4907.42,"text":"您確定您還要說明嗎?我都快不想說你確定你要說明你自己想一想我再補充一點那這個部分我尊重昆哲委員剛剛最後的一個動議那這個部分但是就是針對這個項目這個媒體政策及"},{"start":4910.862,"end":4930.452,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4931.656,"end":4934.822,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4944.307,"end":4967.177,"text":"徐志傑委員有要補充。徐志傑,大家好。我講另外一個案子。那個16案,我看那個調查其實有很多不同的項目事實上是調查不完。所以你們本來編500多萬變成1000萬。那基本上如果有增加調查的項目,對交通有幫助的這個都是好事。"},{"start":4968.237,"end":4983.76,"text":"但是我看你們這個500多萬到1000多萬結果調查的項目好像沒有增加那到底是有增加調查的項目還是沒有那對交通有什麼好的調查方式可以再提供是不是請說明一下"},{"start":4985.449,"end":4999.145,"text":"有關委員提到的這個部分我這邊做個說明那我們這一次增加這一次的那個114年編的那個預算的是這樣的項目是五項那就是上次的部分就是今年度的部分是七項的部分所以從"},{"start":5000.246,"end":5000.507,"text":"規模規模規模"},{"start":5015.484,"end":5042.217,"text":"但是我們今年查的那個就是機車跟自小課機車的自小課的話像一般機車大概有1400多萬的母體然後自小課大概700多萬所以加起來就2000多萬所以它母體規模很龐大比那個計程車大很多所以我們這次增加是因為我們平常會的準決經費調查是輪流辦不可能每年辦所以這次的114的調查規模比113的規模大很多所以預算增加在這裡"},{"start":5043.797,"end":5049.918,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5066.443,"end":5068.344,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5085.279,"end":5086.12,"text":"坤澤說要專案嗎?坤澤說要專案主席"},{"start":5099.597,"end":5125.122,"text":"一千萬確定是這個政策的宣導?政策宣導一千萬,那交通部可以接受。好,那我不堅持。好,那就這樣的一個決議。接下來我們處理二十到二十三案有關稅出通案,大陸地區旅費,編列了三十六萬兩千元。那這邊我們有四個案,那我們是不是請提案委員我們要做補充說明。林沛翔委員,謝謝。"},{"start":5127.914,"end":5143.469,"text":"主席各位同仁剛剛主席講那句話錢多不能亂花這句話我很認同所以我覺得務實的編列預算是很重要的當我們看到第21案的時候其實去大陸地區的旅費雖然只有編列區區的25萬但是相對來講的話第一點"},{"start":5148.654,"end":5165.085,"text":"兩岸現在的關係我們其實大家都心知肚明其實跟大陸之間是沒有什麼好交流的第二點就是說以目前的國際會議來講如果不是第一次的破冰會議或是最後一次的結論會議基本上"},{"start":5165.885,"end":5177.438,"text":"中間的所有會議有關細節的討論都是透過視訊會議的方式來做決定比較多這是目前的我是記得好像是上次跟Google的大中華經理他們談到這個事情"},{"start":5180.742,"end":5205.45,"text":"所以說這邊直接編列的25萬預算我認為說我們有必要去了解交通我們交通委員會有必要了解這筆到大陸的預算我凍結50%是我想了解有什麼樣的業務需要特別編列到大陸的地區旅費編列25萬以上好謝謝林佩祥委員那還有沒有委員要提問要追詢好請問好委員"},{"start":5207.997,"end":5226.41,"text":"本期提的是第20、第23案。目前依照兩案的情勢,雙方的官方交流成效有限,所以認為這兩項的項目沒有辦法發揮成效,所以這邊提簡略。本期想要改動解50%。接下來我們陳雪生委員。"},{"start":5235.376,"end":5259.085,"text":"交通部最近有去大陸訪問嗎?沒有吧?你們交通部有去大陸訪問嗎?或是次團體?沒有嗎?交通部公路局有編他的預算嗎?報告委員這個大陸與費稅有含港澳的地方所以他是大陸跟港澳港澳也不准進去啦他不讓你進去啊你一定要次團體嘛所以這個現在你編的我覺得該誰?"},{"start":5261.946,"end":5284.064,"text":"民進院委員講很道理,工作委員講呢?還是誰?行政委員?保留一先就好了嘛法務委員可以先容我說明一下大概他的用途我跟你講喔,我是很支持交通部去大陸訪問但是你們進不去啊,我支持你們去喔但你們進不去啊,現在兩岸這個樣子"},{"start":5285.885,"end":5310.834,"text":"我那天還跟那個部長我執行的時候講阿你們要找次團體進去嘛我鼓勵你們去阿真的因為要緩和了要緩和了但是你們現在沒辦法阿你保留一千萬嘛到時候融資嘛包委員跟委員報告一下就是說這筆預算主要是海跟空目前其實海運的小三通其實都還在你不要再講了市長是處長會計處長在這裡是"},{"start":5313.855,"end":5318.177,"text":"根委員報告一下根委員報告一下根委員報告一下根委員報告一下根委員報告一下根委員報告一下根委員報告"},{"start":5335.566,"end":5363.001,"text":"那重點是剛剛我們行政司長講了他基本上是海空的兩岸的溝通你們要去的話也是次團體去啦不可能部長或是你們局長、司長去不可能的一定次團體他們現在目前來的也這樣因為現在像兩岸小三通來講的話因為現在金門的航班其實已經不太夠用了所以他目前金門縣政府大概也有提出來希望金門的小三通能夠增班的這個議題這個要靠國民黨去談啦"},{"start":5364.842,"end":5391.51,"text":"對,但這個議題可能還是需要兩邊的就是相關的主管部主要交通啦或是給那個他不可能作業給你民進黨嘛怎麼可能的勒是不是你這預算要不就全刪要不你既然不能留任也不能允許要不然就不要刪是不是建議委員可以用凍結的方式讓我們提書面報告多少錢啊?二十幾萬是不是?三十六萬二而已啊跟去年的規模一樣給他十萬好不好"},{"start":5395.181,"end":5405.825,"text":"因為要用怎麼辦?一般建築及設備雲建工程凍結三天那去凍結用凍結書面報告的方式林委員林沛翔委員有話說嗎?"},{"start":5409.079,"end":5429.521,"text":"我從頭到尾不是要你如果仔細看我是凍結50%我並不是要全部刪除但是我想知道說現在你們去大陸要有什麼樣的目的然後有什麼會有什麼樣的成果我覺得交通委員會必須要務實的知道這一筆預算有什麼樣的功用因此我要求凍結50%加上專案報告以上"},{"start":5429.943,"end":5444.934,"text":"好,那我再請交通部補充說明,就是針對這一個科目的一個執行,去年度的執行狀況大概如何?司司可以說明一下?八位,我這邊是產業國際司,那目前交通部確實是兩岸還有在互動的少數部會之一"},{"start":5453.9,"end":5480.846,"text":"那剛剛海空已經有講了那以今年來看的話那個郵政的部分他們有要求我們兩岸的貨物要透過郵政來互動甚至於專案所以這個他們有提出來像廣東希望小龍這些貨物能夠互通所以目前還在跟北京有談過所以今年有去"},{"start":5481.908,"end":5487.544,"text":"那可能如果抬高到層級的話就部裡面也會去所以希望"},{"start":5488.826,"end":5498.573,"text":"我們希望是說因為經費確實沒有增加啦那有花生我們就會自用我是不是建議是不是能夠改書面報告"},{"start":5518.946,"end":5521.167,"text":"非營業部分關於交通部公路建"},{"start":5546.56,"end":5546.72,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5564.514,"end":5584.394,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5584.554,"end":5586.355,"text":"議員主席議員主席議員主席"},{"start":5610.419,"end":5630.129,"text":"我們林佩祥委員謝謝都是同樣的理由就是說現在的因為疫情之後我們國際會議的模式已經有改變不管是說是大陸還是去歐洲還是去那個維也納哪裡都一樣"},{"start":5631.449,"end":5647.822,"text":"通常來講以國際商務來講除了剛開始的破冰見面跟談判之外就只有最後面的結尾談判是需要人飛到國外去的中間因為疫情之後所有的細項不是用email來去做資料上面的輸送"},{"start":5648.402,"end":5673.182,"text":"不然就直接做視訊會議那交通部身為天下三大部之一的時候你們的視訊會議的設備應該會比較不錯所以針對這一點我為什麼不管是25案也好25案跟28案都是針對國外旅遊不是國外出差的部分那這點我都會覺得說我們要務實的來看待我們的預算因此我建議說在25案裡面在25案裡面3減35萬元凍結50%加專案報告"},{"start":5678.466,"end":5698.243,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非�"},{"start":5701.785,"end":5714.111,"text":"提議7,要求公路局應就相關未提及的方案,領培祥委員提議8,領培祥委員提議9,領培祥委員提議10,領培祥委員提議11,領培祥委員提議12,領培祥委員提議13,領培祥委員提議14,領培祥委員提議15,領培祥委員提議16,領培祥委員提議17,領培祥委員提議18,領培祥委員提議19,領培祥委員提議20,領培祥委員提議21,領培祥委員提議22,領培祥委員提議23,領培祥委員提議24,"},{"start":5730.698,"end":5732.239,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":5758.306,"end":5763.249,"text":"林倩琦委員出國禮費在24到28中間兩岸這個業務單位有來說明我這邊其實是凍結為什麼凍結呢是第一最主要你們在內容上沒有寫清楚"},{"start":5786.761,"end":5806.734,"text":"好了但是你們說明之後呢我知道你們大概目前規劃的方向那但是在這個二十六案這邊你們規劃的方向是因為現在可能有了道路交通安全的問題那目前應該要去西班牙嗎如果我印象中沒錯對不對"},{"start":5807.935,"end":5808.235,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5828.335,"end":5854.344,"text":"我還是希望這個凍結的部分等到你們很確定就是說這個會議跟道安有關的主題已經是確定的而且就如你們所講的這個會有可能會在西班牙然後整個的內容很詳實之後再去做處理如果在那個整個程序時間上可以的話因為這樣相對會比較清楚那你們在講的時候其實有跟你們說過就是當用則用可是該審則審"},{"start":5856.305,"end":5880.674,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5881.354,"end":5904.165,"text":"因為尼德蘭也經常是臺灣效法的一個對象但是我這邊還是要提醒就是說在這個主題上相對比較清楚你們也知道你們究竟要去哪裡第一案是因為今年開案也讓大家有一點不太確定跟質疑第二案相對你們可能可以派的人相對比較足夠不過我這邊呼應一下剛才沛翔委員這邊講的就是說"},{"start":5906.246,"end":5931.662,"text":"實際的國際會議,我們真正的目的是什麼?你是學習的目的呢?那是不是可以透過視訊會更完整、更詳細、更加清楚?如果是一個宣示的話,那你要派多少人?那這個人真正的這個目標,還有他的使命,是不是能夠完成?你請問派一個很清楚的人去把我們需要的connection,或者是我們需要a claim的宣告的東西,把它講清楚。"},{"start":5932.402,"end":5958.977,"text":"與其派很多人結果每個人那個錢又都不夠到最後審這個審那個然後真正要達到的目的跟效益沒有辦法達到然後大家的這個整個出國的這個品質也很糟結果學習上也沒有辦法像相對用視訊或者是在更進一步其他的方式來的細緻因為這不是出國進修所以這個部分應該是會議的主軸是什麼那臺灣的定位在這裡面我們要怎麼被提及"},{"start":5959.837,"end":5977.647,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位"},{"start":5988.953,"end":6013.162,"text":"所以我們還是希望事情能夠做得更好,而尊重開支,但是當用則用,該審則審。好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。那我們現在就請交通部這邊做一個說明。剛剛林委員所提示的就26項,是說我們明年度會新編一個有關道路安全的會議。那也跟各位委員報告,"},{"start":6014.262,"end":6030.43,"text":"事實上我們這一兩年在推動大安的過程中其實一直要求我們說要跟國際接軌了解國際的一些主要國家他辦理大安的一些相關的一個政策所以我們明年就開始編列有關大安的一個出國的一個"},{"start":6030.99,"end":6059.933,"text":"案子我現在是針對林委員這個部分林委員不是你抱歉我想就是基於這個原因所以我明年就編了這樣一個國際其實剛剛很多委員說是不是用視訊就可以其實目前就了解很多的國際會議事實上已經是沒有視訊可能要到現場去參加最主要是說到現場可以跟相關的國家可以面對面建立一個給溝通的一個管道"},{"start":6060.433,"end":6087.52,"text":"所以這邊也請委員能夠支持畢竟現在道路安全是我們目前國家的重要的施政的一個重點透過參加國外的相關的一個會議的話更可以清楚地掌握到國際尤其是歐洲地區各國在執行道安的一些相關的政策的內容是不是可以建議是凍結十分之一提書面報告後使得動之謝謝"},{"start":6090.992,"end":6091.552,"text":"國際研討會及訓練有需要註冊費?"},{"start":6114.747,"end":6133.482,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6144.858,"end":6144.958,"text":"主席"},{"start":6161.412,"end":6176.527,"text":"至於其他行政、交通產業發展還有我們固定的要派員到國外去訓練比較長時間的這些都沒有變所以我們是建議最多是凍結不要三結因為規模我們其實是一直在準結一直在準結的滋用那因為特殊有需要"},{"start":6176.807,"end":6177.628,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6200.061,"end":6200.541,"text":"出國計劃有確定計劃嗎?"},{"start":6226.388,"end":6226.409,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":6232.876,"end":6252.662,"text":"是不是我這邊就是建議說我們就是用凍結來處理好不好就是有關出國計劃跟國外旅費的部分那林沛翔委員我說實在話我需要看到專案報告我需要看到專案報告而且我們最好報告清楚一點因為不是只有我一個委員有這樣的疑問凍結50%是我的底線那如果是專案報告的話我們就是凍結50%50%是我的底線"},{"start":6262.799,"end":6289.039,"text":"嗯...可是這樣子的話就是說在新年度如果召委齁沒有馬上排他們可能都沒辦法出國就是他只要遇到有計劃需...其實說真的你們如果說是如果跟我講國際會議這個事情不好意思我在民主基金會任職過我也在港務公司任職過我常常出國我常常出國那我知道有些時候這些報告怎麼樣腐爛運用我很清楚所以拜託拜託拜託不要糊弄我們交通委員會好嗎?"},{"start":6298.264,"end":6312.913,"text":"是說要專案報告,也不知道專案報告什麼時候會排上,有些會議搞不好會在專案報告之前,搞不好最近有幾,可能會有這種情況,是不是建議還是用書面報告?主席我這裡有3.1百萬人,你沒有提?"},{"start":6313.837,"end":6316.879,"text":"出國計劃比去年多了,還能去之前的"},{"start":6327.199,"end":6334.904,"text":"你們錢結算多少?用完了嗎?你結算用完了沒有?結算?你們錢用光了嗎?好了,那配強委員那個50就50吧。"},{"start":6350.393,"end":6366.705,"text":"他凍結...凍結百分之五十...不是啦...比我這個砍一百萬好欸...不不...趙偉...趙偉...人家幾個委員已經說凍結專案報告錢不多如果你們繼續這樣審預算去做說明我可以跟你們講"},{"start":6367.466,"end":6373.61,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6393.464,"end":6394.585,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6412.818,"end":6412.878,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6425.902,"end":6432.486,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6453.021,"end":6466.348,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6479.364,"end":6503.765,"text":"七位委員,七個提案。那我們請提案委員做說明。首先請翁曉琳委員。是。翁曉琳委員。好,謝謝主席。我們知道其實現在政府財政負擔過大,然後交通部的媒體宣傳經費卻是逐年增加。那麼交通部114年其實憋了一億多的媒體宣傳費。"},{"start":6505.066,"end":6509.668,"text":"比113年還多增加了6千多萬6千7百多萬比113年多增加了3646萬本席認為說交通部在這裡邊的媒體宣傳費用過高而且這個宣傳"},{"start":6528.677,"end":6552.807,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6554.408,"end":6556.049,"text":"道安經費今年編列6億元媒體宣傳費只有4,725萬"},{"start":6582.307,"end":6603.392,"text":"約佔比7.8%這是今年的狀況那明年呢一樣是到案的預算結果你到案整體掃編哦就是本來從6月以後明年降到5億剩下5億之後其中的媒體經費是宣傳經費高達1億50萬元佔比達到百分之...將近百分之二十所以我想這個比例原則很奇怪啊就是說"},{"start":6604.292,"end":6628.576,"text":"道安經費我們希望說你能夠把更多的經費拿去做實質的路口可能改善也好或是各項的這種工程面也好那結果你在宣傳經費上突然整體經費下降的情況下面你的宣傳經費還增加這麼多錢還增加了一倍那一倍裡面呢有來說明沒錯說新增一些高齡者的安全用路的用路這些的資能啊然後增強機車駕駛的風險宣傳等等的那第一個"},{"start":6631.557,"end":6632.778,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6649.272,"end":6677.371,"text":"一百五千萬在做什麼?你本來五千萬裡面難道就沒有要去幫助高齡者來增加他的安全用戶資能嗎?本來就沒有要去強調機車嗎?所以本來在做什麼?那為什麼突然要增加這五千萬而且你是在整體的道安經費減少的情況下去把宣傳經費增加所以我想這個是比較說不過去也不太合理所以我才提三、五千萬三、五千萬其實講白了你還是其實從整體來講你還是增加的因為跟去年來比你還是增加的而且會影響你本來的業務以上謝謝"},{"start":6679.572,"end":6680.133,"text":"黃建豪議員林倩琦議員"},{"start":6701.264,"end":6701.424,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6720.384,"end":6739.104,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6739.484,"end":6766.887,"text":"這個招標上你們雖然採公開招標但是呢限制性招標的方式那麼高難道這些東西就只能是這樣做嗎只有幾個媒體可以這樣子做嗎所以這點是讓人家有一點疑鬥啦那所以我是希望交通部這個部分能夠在未來也應該要做一個改善那我們再回到剛才我們講的這個效度所以"},{"start":6768.548,"end":6791.235,"text":"據我所知你們應該這個拍影片然後針對什麼你們說的增加的部分是針對高齡族群還有一些行人安全但是基本上形式跟網絡是差不多的就是你們網絡平台看起來都是跟過往是差不多的只是族群上有一些調整"},{"start":6791.835,"end":6792.795,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6819.201,"end":6848.257,"text":"所以我覺得這個整個你們想要增加的族群跟原先的結構差異沒有那麼大所以這是我提出來最主要的一個原因當然你們這部分有做一些說明但是在整體來講這個限制性招標的招標方式跟你們原先平台結構上的調整似乎在今年多變的部分有比較讓人有一些疑鬥跟問題所以這邊是我提出來"},{"start":6848.977,"end":6851.658,"text":"媒體政策增加3600萬交通運輸規劃增加5326萬交通運輸規劃及產業發展增加1倍以上"},{"start":6876.983,"end":6881.962,"text":"你們在去年的預算3億多的宣傳費現在增加了1億多"},{"start":6883.655,"end":6909.584,"text":"增加一億多這是幹什麼用還有你們的決算是怎麼樣請你們說明一下齁你們決算是怎麼樣說明一下為什麼以前的宣傳叫今年度啦就是明年的預算嘛齁你叫今年度要增加一億多所以我們委員才會砍什麼五千萬、六千萬、五千萬的齁才會有這樣一個砍法"},{"start":6910.524,"end":6926.264,"text":"第二項,剛才區議員也講了你們用限制性招標還是公開招標?要不要是不是最低價得標?還有你能不能說明最近這三年是不是都是用同一家媒體得標?"},{"start":6929.428,"end":6950.185,"text":"這裡面會有鬧鬼喔所以部長請你尤其要注意當然大家依法行政嘛公開招標有的就跟鐵路裡面一樣啦什麼區段啊都是他全台灣省各段都是這樣都是同一家他媽奇怪他祖宗有德啊還是遺傳的"},{"start":6951.366,"end":6964.84,"text":"沒這個道理嘛,那個戴阿姨也不去看一看怎麼回事?都是同一家媒體招標,飆到了這就有問題了好不好?我想你們會議處也好,你們有陣風嘛你們針對這方面你們要說明一下好不好?謝謝啦齁"},{"start":6966.612,"end":6966.872,"text":"議員提案資料"},{"start":6984.138,"end":7007.244,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7007.398,"end":7025.401,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7025.701,"end":7043.346,"text":"幹什麼要用那麼多的宣傳經費宣傳經費其實就是道安為了道安的我們有道安老人公路局的你就回歸公路局去嘛你把公路局放進來幹什麼那個有編那個有編過去所以我們這邊看起來我們部裡面的預算你這裡多了欸你多了1億多出來的沒有"},{"start":7045.086,"end":7061.47,"text":"怎麼會沒有勒?政令宣導沒有多那麼多只剩下3600而已啊不只不只欸你講的是29案喔我連30案都幫你講進去了喔30案勒你31到34勒你30案是不是增加5000多29增加3600嘛"},{"start":7073.931,"end":7093.06,"text":"那你31到34增加一倍,你幹嘛要增加那麼,有那麼龐大的業務嗎?你道安編到道安區吧,你就寫道安嗎?十二、私通安全業務、暖鞋、十八、結愛、秋肉包等"},{"start":7096.581,"end":7115.847,"text":"我問你你如果是道安的話今年也是道安啊明年也是道安後年也是道安啊你現在跟我扯道安幹什麼你這個道安就在這裡面啊你道安已經就在這裡面你今年度就在這個裡面啊我可以送明細資料給你道安就在這裡面啊跟各位委員報告為什麼今年道安會提高比較多因為大家都知道我們在"},{"start":7116.287,"end":7143.047,"text":"硬體建設的部分其實為了道安我們增加很多的預算但是要完成道路安全除了硬體建設之外其實用路人的觀念非常的重要所以我們今年特別用多一些的預算在用路人的觀念上面去做宣導這是一方面那另外一方面就是說我們剛有提到我們今年會比較針對老人家跟幼兒那我們有研究過就是說過去交通部比較沒有針對電視媒體去投放廣告那我們一些老人家他們不太看手機"},{"start":7143.888,"end":7156.781,"text":"所以我們今天會用一些在電視廣告的部分希望老人家能夠看到我們一些道安上面的宣導跟宣傳所以在這個部分我們在今年度的...老人家反而很尊重法律喔我知道他們尊重法律所以他們要...你倒是年輕人啊"},{"start":7161.086,"end":7174.496,"text":"一邊在那邊打手機一邊在談戀愛一邊打播什麼話網路上面的宣導也都有啦但是對於老人家尤其滑手機最嚴重因為我們在數據上面看起來其實老人家在我們要等兩個紅燈才過得了勒都在等行人勒哪有這樣子走的"},{"start":7182.085,"end":7206.493,"text":"所以跟各位委員報告道安在明年度的重點我們會希望說在道路安全教育跟宣導的部分你這樣講是可以,而不是處長那樣講的什麼道安,道安放在裡面道安以前沒有放在裡面嗎?除了硬體面之外你去年前年大前年也都放在裡面啊對教育面也很重要那教育面我們就會放在這個媒體上面的宣導的部分太多了太多了這個你們自己看看斟酌要剪掉"},{"start":7208.254,"end":7224.364,"text":"好不好,我是很討厭你們的,我是很討厭你們的。剛剛已經有減一千萬了啦,已經有減一千萬了。怎麼減一千萬?你說二十九嗎?十四案的時候,道安的部分已經指定減一千萬了啦。不是這樣減,不是這樣減,你要總的來算,你要總的來算,你不能說道安的,你要總的來算。"},{"start":7231.118,"end":7256.371,"text":"我把所有的東西都講老人的宣傳你們預算書裡面喔柏定我提醒你們你們自己都講不清楚你們老人的宣導部分只有1200萬所以齁你不要動這欸所有委員都都是硬頭啊所以1200萬所以你們不要推到這裡來所以重新再收"},{"start":7257.435,"end":7257.635,"text":"黃建豪委員"},{"start":7276.241,"end":7301.45,"text":"去年今年的4725萬你要增加到1億破億齁那來說明的理由就剛剛提到的國城委員提到了嘛你們來說明說這個高齡者的安全用路你們只有增加1200萬就裡面是1200萬是高齡使用者然後在機車駕駛1000萬然後這個車輛停讓行人用路安全慣例1675萬兒少懸導費1400萬然後其他的增加安全入口網站社群媒體行銷50萬"},{"start":7303.571,"end":7322.932,"text":"請問現在你編了4725那做什麼事情?你是這4725做不到這件事情嗎?還是說過去等於說你承認說過去交通部對於剛剛提到的上述這是什麼老人的也好整治行程安全也好都沒有宣傳那請問那過去4725花哪去?"},{"start":7324.514,"end":7327.056,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7342.347,"end":7342.687,"text":"主席魯明哲委員"},{"start":7368.097,"end":7394.599,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7394.759,"end":7418.833,"text":"三百六十萬,六千,大概這是總數啦那其他向下有時候不一啦跟各位委員來做一個報告那當然我是跟交通部真的是要見一下啦因為我們預算中心事實上寫了通案整個行政院針對政策宣導跟沒宣費這個一些通案的問題其中我覺得兩個最重要"},{"start":7419.633,"end":7420.214,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7436.032,"end":7454.053,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7454.193,"end":7454.373,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7472.748,"end":7472.908,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7492.483,"end":7518.575,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7519.035,"end":7543.206,"text":"請各位委員我們大家集中討論就是剛剛已經刪了一千萬那針對一億多的預算我們還要追加、刪減多少?以上好,謝謝李明哲找到你的說明好,李鑽澤委員我先簡單跟大家說明一下我們剛才刪了這個一般事務會裡面就有相關這個項目是一千萬"},{"start":7544.486,"end":7572.535,"text":"那這個是屬於一級的類別啦那我們現在討論的是媒體政策及業務宣導會我看有很多的我們的委員提案說要三、五千我要提醒大家這是屬於三級的三級的其實就是媒體政策及業務宣導會是包含在一般事務會裡面啦所以這個要先跟大家來說明然後另外對於台灣的交通"},{"start":7573.735,"end":7597.316,"text":"的意外事故造成嚴重的傷亡這是國人最關注的一個議題所以在過去這段時間交通委員會嚴厲的要求交通部針對交通的改善工程交通規則的一個補全以及相關交通安全文化的一個重新的推廣"},{"start":7598.377,"end":7621.732,"text":"以及相關對交通耗資標線等等提出重要的一個檢視以及重新的規劃。這一些包括改善的工程、交通文化的推廣以及相關安全標線耗資的一個改善都是必須向民眾做正確有效而且"},{"start":7622.592,"end":7623.173,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7639.189,"end":7656.032,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7656.152,"end":7677.635,"text":"重要方向是什麼具體內容是什麼那我再一次向大家說明剛才我們已經在一般事務會已經刪了一千人然後現在討論媒體政策及業務宣導會其實就是包含在一般事務會裡面以上向大家說明以上接下來翁曉琳委員"},{"start":7678.736,"end":7679.056,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7698.643,"end":7713.456,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7714.758,"end":7734.646,"text":"那就代表之前做的都沒有成效那整個在你們的媒體業務宣導的政策規劃方向都沒有進行檢討然後做一些沒有效果沒有意義的宣導那麼浪費人民的納稅錢所以本席認為說你們應該要重新檢討你們現在去做媒體業務宣導的"},{"start":7742.109,"end":7766.08,"text":"規劃同時就像剛剛盧委員所說的KPI很重要到底他的這個點閱率或是收視率他成效如何就要很清楚的列出來實在是沒有必要花一億多的經費然後再去做這沒宣更何況沒宣的經費我記得是另外邊列的這個一般業務份應該是分開來的"},{"start":7768.993,"end":7786.152,"text":"所以本期這邊還是認為說要至少刪減一半我們這邊還比較客氣就刪減了五千萬但這部分的話是也希望就大家委員能夠堅持我們看看這個錢少一點他們會不會做得更好"},{"start":7787.331,"end":7813.196,"text":"並致力有效降低資安投資。好,那說明完畢齁,那陳雪森委員。剛才坤德委員齁,已經講了。道安會不會有一千萬嘛,對不對?那少砍一千萬嘛。就少砍一千萬嘛,這我們接受啊,對不對?但你今年,你明年的預算比今年要多出快一億耶。這個,那多出多少?多出五千喔?"},{"start":7815.871,"end":7841.854,"text":"五千已經刪一千了市長算過了是不是?確定?對你不講一千嗎?五三是多少?三五千耶,三五千萬三一千一千扣掉嘛,扣掉三四千就好啦部長你自己講三幾塊,你自己講"},{"start":7842.93,"end":7868.436,"text":"若沒有其他委員有其他的問題,我們是不是針對剛剛委員的意見,我們請交通部再做詳細的說明好不好?等一下,還有我很在意的齁,你們把這最近三年是哪些廠商得標的,誰負責請舉手?請舉手,你們齁,沒關係。你做個報告給我們,交通部委員會,我要。好不好,你寫個報告給我齁,三年是不是同樣的廠商得標,我很在意這個。"},{"start":7872.797,"end":7873.798,"text":"公路安全費用5億1700萬元"},{"start":7890.267,"end":7892.769,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7911.064,"end":7911.344,"text":"國道公路建"},{"start":7926.101,"end":7948.041,"text":"事故最大的主因還是來自於我們用路人他的駕駛行為不當所造成的所以我們希望透過教育宣導來看看是不是可以引導我們用路人來有個正確的駕駛行為駕駛行為來塑造一個良好的道路安全的文化而且這個東西是需要日積月累花時間經費去"},{"start":7951.144,"end":7952.144,"text":" bicyclist 高齡者公務員委員會委員長"},{"start":7972.731,"end":7989.599,"text":"其實我們初步的了解是說我們高齡者目前接觸到的媒體主要還是來自於電視跟廣播所以我們之前在媒體上我們也有做廣播但是發現說它可能數量不夠所以我們明年要希望能夠增加這個電視的檔次"},{"start":7992.02,"end":8019.379,"text":"那大家很關心說我們是不是有集中在某一個車裡面也先跟各位委員報告基本上交通部在採購的時候是限制性招標下的公開評審準用最有利標也就是說我們會把相關的招標文件公告以後有興趣投標的這些業者他會來投標那我們會成立評審委員會來做一個公平公正的一個評審委員會"},{"start":8020.64,"end":8030.607,"text":"你不要用有利標好不好,你用公開招標,可以嗎?公開評選就是有點類似公開招標的意思啦。不一樣啦,我當過縣市長啦,我知道啦。"},{"start":8035.854,"end":8053.979,"text":"有利標你們說誰大概就是誰了啦因為通常公開交標就是用最低價格標啦有利標裡面有價格的問題在裡面價格只是其中分數之一啦所以占比而已啦我希望你們通通用價格標也可以用公開交標也可以"},{"start":8056.16,"end":8077.511,"text":"其實跟各位報其實在我們的公開評選裡面價格就是其中一個項目我們希望說是整體性的考量價格在5%嘛你其中一個項目但是我們還是希望考慮說其他的因素啦我想我們是透過委員會而且這個也是有專家寫者來組成的專家寫者喔對那才好笑咧"},{"start":8079.794,"end":8092.014,"text":"專制學者不聽你們的才有鬼我跟你講你問我最清楚的啦我跟你講啦你問價格標有什麼關係你公開抓標嘛你公開抓標有什麼困難我請問你"},{"start":8093.43,"end":8120.175,"text":"我是說裡面有鬼你懂了沒有我幫你抓鬼欸搞不好你們裡面萬一出了什麼事怎麼辦你還負責部長都要負責我想剛剛委員只是我們說要提書面報告不是書面報告的事我們是把這幾年我們到底是哪些業者來投標的資料我們會寫成書面報告提供給委員做參考其實預算的參檢我還不是很堅持我只是決定你們這個沒提完"},{"start":8121.615,"end":8128.981,"text":"政府的採購法都有一定的規範公部門在做招標的時候一定都是遵守這樣的規則他們只要符合法令"},{"start":8146.834,"end":8169.172,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8169.392,"end":8175.154,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8191.301,"end":8194.343,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":8218.136,"end":8229.48,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":8240.458,"end":8262.84,"text":"因為這次多出來的預算是差不多六千萬那凍結三十趴是因為之前的其實如果說一直說是行人安全啊、宣導其實沒有那麼有利但是大家我們尊重主席也尊重我們委員會的和諧所以我這邊退而求其次我是希望說我們在三十四案三十一案到三十四案的話是尊重魯明哲委員提案三減三千萬凍結十趴在這個部分剛剛已經處理了"},{"start":8267.081,"end":8269.182,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8284.65,"end":8311.084,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8311.404,"end":8319.23,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":8342.045,"end":8361.484,"text":"明年的預算只有增加五千三百二十五萬,對啦,所以不是什麼一億多都講不清楚啦,如果照委員對這個預算有質疑,我們給他砍一半好不好,五千三百多砍一半兩千五,那你剛剛已經砍掉一千了嘛"},{"start":8363.907,"end":8387.467,"text":"我覺得再三一千萬應該是可以接受啦那你這樣等於要砍掉一半了吧我來講比較快啦三一千五百萬啦好不好如果在聊會砍到兩千萬到三千萬副黨砍一千五百萬啦比較快啦"},{"start":8388.007,"end":8403.234,"text":"一千啦一千啦你讓人家做看看不是他沒提他這個錢增加了三四千萬欸增加五千三百二十五萬五千多萬我們把道安的一千萬算掉增加四千萬謝謝趙偉"},{"start":8405.435,"end":8427.493,"text":"我是請求各位委員在深思熟慮因為我們在去年跟今年都有交通法規上的一些很大的變革有很多新的修法過後的法令民眾事實上都還半知不解有的甚至還不知道所以我覺得宣導這件事情"},{"start":8428.954,"end":8453.346,"text":"正確的宣導正確的這個交通規則很重要給予正確的資訊還有形塑正確的而且讓人民遵守的一個交通規則甚至是法規制度的文化而且這個文化還必須要內化成在生活習慣上能夠自然而然的遵守"},{"start":8453.746,"end":8482.073,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8482.073,"end":8500.094,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8500.094,"end":8515.299,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8515.299,"end":8532.176,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8532.296,"end":8549.031,"text":"我舉個例子啦光是一個人行道我們現行為了行人的交通安全各大城市各地都在施行人行道的更新跟改建很多人不知道不了解為什麼人行道要做那麼寬為什麼人行道為了行人安全要做庇護島為什麼我們那個直角那個圓圈要畫那麼大"},{"start":8557.278,"end":8576.476,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8576.676,"end":8596.766,"text":"交通部他們執行的成效講得不夠好或者是不精準或者是沒有辦法說服我們我們就以後繼續強力的要求甚至KPI還有後續的報告我們甚至可以要求他們來仔細說清楚但是預算是不是拙減就好啦塞一千萬啦好不好謝謝"},{"start":8600.928,"end":8622.513,"text":"提出一個建議啦那個部長你這裡也不要堅持說1500其實1500啊國民黨黨團這裡啊已經非常放鬆但是我建議啦我建議你送到沒有共識送到黨團去協商會更慘啦所以我建議我建議我建議啦是不是大家折衷一下"},{"start":8623.649,"end":8635.368,"text":"一千兩百萬啊不要再講了你們再講的話毛環了好啦一千兩百萬算是有單數欸等一下好那就不要再講了我們就你這個要公開投票嗎"},{"start":8637.018,"end":8660.211,"text":"公開招標就是按照採購法就是要的啊我跟妳講啦招會長的依法行政都是依法行政被抓到大海局去那個才是違法的啦不是啊不是啊採購法一定是公開招標啦不是啊 顧慮的就公開招標他是價值標啦你們不要用評審標評審標我跟你講作弊就比較容易啦所以既然這樣就我是"},{"start":8660.691,"end":8662.992,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8686.235,"end":8688.378,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8701.372,"end":8701.972,"text":"會砍更嚴重"},{"start":8727.465,"end":8727.486,"text":"謝謝啦 謝謝 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":8750.17,"end":8756.882,"text":"除非就是要辦就是評選最低價先做評選然後再做最低價這是可以考慮的但是要他們自己去考慮"},{"start":9317.465,"end":9331.994,"text":"現在繼續開會在開會之前本席先做以下宣告那等一下中午我們在交通部本部的預算案處理完畢之後休息半個小時用餐所以請接下來的單位先去用餐"},{"start":9334.756,"end":9353.884,"text":"我們就是等一下在本部的預算案處理結束之後才休息半個小時用餐做了以下宣告好那我們現在繼續處理預算提案36至42案有關交通科技研究發展這個科目預算數是1651萬2000元好那我們現在是不是請提案的委員有沒有要做這個提問的徐副國委員謝謝"},{"start":9365.776,"end":9392.158,"text":"謝謝主席本期提出第38案那交通部在這個辦理所謂的一個交通領域的一個關鍵基礎設施的資安準備計畫裡面那本期目前掌握到的資料截至到今年8月這個針對這個交通部應該取得資安職能課程證書的人有680個但實際上取得證照的人只有318位還沒有過半"},{"start":9394.139,"end":9422.514,"text":"那交通部在這一年裡面也沒有去盤點這個應該取得相關證照的人數的基本數據那本席要求的是先凍結100萬那要求交通部針對這樣子的一個主管機關應該適用人員的持續取證的部分應該要加強一個資安的管控確保我們交通運輸的一個穩定運作謝謝好謝謝徐副委員接下來邀請林國成委員那林國成委員之後請林俊憲委員謝謝"},{"start":9424.555,"end":9449.105,"text":"本席提的是39案跟40案39案的部分因為我主張檢列200萬但是在這個部分為什麼要檢列第一個過去成績真的是不佳提供出來的說明根本無法接受但是在這個部分也請再度說明一下"},{"start":9449.965,"end":9470.211,"text":"第四,事實案的部分雖然有說明,但是我是覺得可以簡略的部分因為它說明我們就較為清楚可以來改為凍結的部分來處理以上報告"},{"start":9471.616,"end":9473.378,"text":"主席,本席提第37案,是我們交通科技研究發展的經費。"},{"start":9486.738,"end":9502.766,"text":"那其實我要提的是因為我們在2023年就去年修訂這個交通懲罰條例把那個嚴重超速規範原本是超速60公里算是嚴重超速66"},{"start":9503.806,"end":9531.675,"text":"去2023年把它改為超速40公里就算嚴重超速這麼一改嚴重超速案件增加4倍那嚴重超速要怎麼樣要吊車牌車牌要拔掉所以造成我覺得這個是連動的你被吊過車牌的人成長4倍造成未照車牌的那個數量成長6倍"},{"start":9533.933,"end":9534.113,"text":"委員會專案報告討論"},{"start":9552.174,"end":9552.455,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9573.995,"end":9585.102,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":9598.71,"end":9609.288,"text":"本期提案凍結預算10%,請交通部就這個事情如何處理。三個月內提一個報告,只能動輒。謝謝。好,謝謝林居憲委。接下來請魯明哲召委。"},{"start":9611.493,"end":9611.753,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9632.654,"end":9657.21,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9657.33,"end":9658.43,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9682.158,"end":9682.739,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9712.078,"end":9712.619,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9731.561,"end":9751.988,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9752.168,"end":9754.17,"text":"在上個月11月為止工業控制司安概論取證提高352人累計401人"},{"start":9768.079,"end":9770.221,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":9785.794,"end":9786.815,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9803.887,"end":9827.049,"text":"人工智慧基本AI的基本法的法制作業來協定我們部裡面在參照速發部的AI風險分類框架之後我們部裡面要訂AI的風險的分類指引等等這一塊提供部署機關也要幫忙部署機關做人才培育這是第39話也懇請委員支持那在第40案的部分"},{"start":9831.083,"end":9851.06,"text":"跟各位委員報告也包括剛盧委員所提點的對於114年到117年事實上我們是根據國家資通安全發展方案那明年開始確實到了第7期這是新的計畫可能沒有寫清楚到時候跟盧委員報告這個會再補充更清楚一點這個計畫延續前面"},{"start":9853.502,"end":9878.4,"text":"的110到113年的第6期的方案我們要做的工作非常重要而且必須持續包括資安的情資的分享還有資安的通報以及應變還有資安的這個監控等等另外我們也要做關鍵基礎設施像一些軌道系統等等他的這些關鍵基礎設施他的攻防演練而且每年會辦理所謂的必須辦資安的集合"},{"start":9878.84,"end":9892.489,"text":"那才能夠跨部會的來維持資安聯防這件事情那第41案就是剛剛說的這一塊那也跟盧昭偉先生報告事實上您剛剛說這個計畫可能我們在報告裡面要說清楚一點"},{"start":9902.376,"end":9918.041,"text":"這個其實跟經濟部這個大概沒有關係就是只有交通部不好意思不好意思這個可能再跟您做報告那我們陳昭偉這邊當您提點的我在前面大概也有說明過就是取證的這一塊大概我們在固定這個時間會做這樣的一個處理好以上說明"},{"start":9929.704,"end":9935.626,"text":"針對林俊俊委員提案甚至提案的部分也確實就是說去年6月30號施行這個處理條例43條那危險駕駛有這個超速60降到這個時之後確實這個危險駕駛的這個調控案件數有這個增加"},{"start":9945.49,"end":9973.504,"text":"那以最近5年這個就是整體這個吊扣駕照的部分的話大概危險駕駛是佔百分之這個百分之二十五大概十分之一那酒駕的部分大概佔百分之十五那另外一個最大宗的部分大概就是車輛預期檢驗被這個吊銷牌照的部分這個也大概佔到這個百分之二十那這邊剛剛委員這個就事做指導就是說相關速限的這一個就是說合理金融的一個檢討那另外一個部分包括這個"},{"start":9974.484,"end":9981.526,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10000.811,"end":10001.232,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10007.563,"end":10036.161,"text":"目前就是說我們知道這個國家中央安全建設的這個資安的風險也是非常的一個重要所以這個部分36到42案本席在這邊做一個處理是不是建議我們就採凍結10%然後提書面報告後使得凍之這樣好不好好謝謝那我們接下來就處理第43到46案有關這個一般行政"},{"start":10038.003,"end":10040.105,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10054.944,"end":10081.952,"text":"本期提了第43案針對一般行政的部分我們提案凍結300萬是因為交通部目前在反霸凌專區部分還沒有完整揭示如何保障員工的一個隱密申訴那造成這個還有台鐵的員工透過媒體管道進行這個職場霸凌的案件揭露那我們也要求交通部針對霸凌申訴的管道的這部分應該做一個完善的一個"},{"start":10084.254,"end":10091.022,"text":"處理,確保申訴隱密性。以上。接下來請林佩祥委員"},{"start":10091.598,"end":10110.604,"text":"好謝謝昭偉基本上我本期的意見跟之前有關這個出國去出國去考察出國去開會一樣那那這邊是這個是林建啟委員幫忙希望我能夠提的那他剛剛也在這邊做出很多說明那我在這邊還是維持原意的建議3減100萬凍結10發並將專案報告之後才才實動事以上"},{"start":10115.381,"end":10123.883,"text":"林沛翔委員林國成委員本期是46案,我們是檢列200萬,但是看主席最後怎麼裁決。許智賢委員許智賢委員許智賢委員許智賢委員許智賢委員許智賢委員"},{"start":10147.132,"end":10148.112,"text":"徐副副委員徐副副委員"},{"start":10161.917,"end":10188.646,"text":"我們是算是少數有涉反霸凌專區在網路上的這是我們查過的那員工那除了反霸凌專區之外他還可以透過書面等等的方式向部裡面來做申訴那當然有些員工他選擇用這樣的方式我們表示尊重透過媒體的方式但是我們當然不希望說我們內部的這個申訴管道是不暢通的我想暢通這個部分絕對請委員放心這個絕對不會有問題的"},{"start":10191.527,"end":10195.391,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":10209.864,"end":10235.47,"text":"以114年來講這筆預算事實上目前來講我們已經完成審查的動作也就是說我們有大概有四個案子現在準備要出去那這四個案子分別是鐵道局的有關鐵路系統的經營案子那還有這個兩個是這個氣象署的包括地震包括海嘯以及海象等等的這個預警措施那另外一個是航港局的有關航岸的部分"},{"start":10236.07,"end":10262.94,"text":"所以這四個案子經過我們內部市長召集相關機關單位一起審查以後當然提案的非常多那是我們經過篩選了以後篩的是四個案子所以這邊要特別請求委員說這個刪一百萬的部分是不是可以不要刪因為這樣子對大家在執行後續的很多研究案甚至很多對老百姓在平常運用資訊的這一塊會有產生某些影響"},{"start":10264.249,"end":10264.929,"text":"議員提出的建議有效嗎?"},{"start":10278.884,"end":10300.727,"text":"這個還要經過檢測我們內部這個相關部門他看過這個建議以及執行情形以後我們才會解除列管所以交通部在做這件事情事實上我們是用比較嚴謹的態度來面對的所以希望委員能夠支持這個100萬不要刪減喔那如果需要了解書面報告的部分我們來配合上"},{"start":10304.482,"end":10322.377,"text":"好那請林佩祥委員這邊的解凍條件是三個月內提出專案報告並經同意之後使得凍資那我可以理解以交通部的回答來講如果刪減預算不行的話那我就提議來提凍結20%這邊在三個月內提出專案報告並經同意之後使得凍資謝謝"},{"start":10328.669,"end":10330.85,"text":"好,那江峰部這邊處長有沒有要再說明?"},{"start":10357.253,"end":10375.59,"text":"委員報告一下因為我們這個科目其實基本上人事費佔的大宗今年增加的錢也是人事費最多然後再來就是我們的辦公室因為上市地震其實有一些毀損然後有一些機房設施需要因為年久失修了需要汰換所以大概主要增加的錢在這裡那"},{"start":10378.365,"end":10403.777,"text":"所以是第一個懇請委員不要刪減因為基本上我們這個科目是非常非常準確在編列的那第二個是假使是用專案報告因為那個這樣的話我們變成因為所有的施作都會影響我們辦公的過程那這樣的話這個施作期間就會很難掌控因為專案沒有過的話就沒辦法這個啟動所以要懇請委員是不是能夠以書面報告的方式來處理"},{"start":10409.131,"end":10422.727,"text":"委員會要詢問的,若沒有的話,我們就來做一個處理。剛剛我們交通部這邊有回覆,就是在一般行政的部分,大部分還是都是人事費佔大宗。"},{"start":10424.969,"end":10449.271,"text":"其他部分因為可能也是涉及到這個就是要執行有這個時間性的一個問題所以在這邊我們是不是就是才凍結20%然後書面報告了好不好不是因為他們如果說有工程沒辦法會來不及我們就書面報告了"},{"start":10449.611,"end":10460.676,"text":"我針對的是教育訓練費我針對的是教育訓練費哪裏有什麽設備哪裏有什麽哪裏有什麽我是針對教育訓練費我是300多萬啊我是凍結20%啊那本來3減100萬凍結10%318萬1000元那現在我沒有3減不用說我凍結20%在專案報告對啊凍結20%對啊對啊可是專案報告啊"},{"start":10477.244,"end":10480.006,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算"},{"start":10500.165,"end":10511.495,"text":"好,謝謝林培祥委員。那我們在這個一般行政的這個科目我們就是凍結20%然後提書面報告後時的凍支。好,謝謝。接下來我們處理第47到108案有關交通運輸規劃及產業發展這個預算數是15億4千零20萬5千。好。"},{"start":10527.309,"end":10529.252,"text":"五十二案改組決議提案委員林佩祥委員"},{"start":10542.89,"end":10565.452,"text":"針對65案主要是因為說其實我其實這個提案的委員會許新義委員認為說這幾年來交通事故的交通事故雖然我們跟很多預算在上面其實成效並沒有很成效並不彰所以說在這上面來講是是凍結兩億元那其實基本上也是希望說因為這個案子是知識體大全部全國都在關心這方面的方面的議題所以這邊我會建議說"},{"start":10566.793,"end":10592.026,"text":"還是一樣雖然凍結2億元不過提出專案報告針對行人史上道路安全的案子以上好謝謝接下來黃建豪委員再來尤化委員再來林國成委員謝謝好謝謝召委員我是第69案也是針對這個道路交通安全部分5億1700萬的部分我是提凍結10%那提專案報告那我想我這邊要請交通部不要再跟阿Q說是專案報告還是書面報告因為其實這個"},{"start":10593.166,"end":10594.107,"text":"刑人臨死亡願景刑人臨死亡願景刑人臨死亡願景"},{"start":10614.019,"end":10619.682,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10641.515,"end":10649.273,"text":"這不是一個隨便的事情這理論上應該是交通部最重大的政策之一所以我想做專案報告並不是應該是一個合理的這個狀況所以我們希望要堅持謝謝"},{"start":10651.805,"end":10651.845,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":10681.425,"end":10682.045,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10703.516,"end":10731.487,"text":"接下來邀請林國成委員謝謝主席因為本席提的是六十案六十案我主張三減一億因為他編列預算其原因是陸老師成績非常非常不好然後要你們提出陸老師所做過過去的因為他已經連續幾年都是陸老師他是同一家公司承包所以這個部分本席非常重視所以我是主張要三減一億"},{"start":10733.148,"end":10752.244,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10752.244,"end":10778.234,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10780.316,"end":10787.144,"text":"這個90案的部分一定要去堅持一定要刪以上好接下來邀請林俊憲委員"},{"start":10788.691,"end":10816.665,"text":"謝主席各位同仁本席提第56案第一個我們要關心一下無照駕駛我國每年三十幾萬件的交通事故大概有五萬件是無照駕駛造成六百多人死亡六萬多人受傷造成原因都是無照駕駛無照駕駛造成的死傷人數是酒駕的五倍到六倍那我們社會對酒駕零容忍"},{"start":10817.99,"end":10833.382,"text":"國家用了很大的力量在打擊酒駕,跨部會,像交通部跟警政署的合作。那對於死傷人數是酒駕5到6倍的無照駕駛,我們就放任他每年違規人數都成長。"},{"start":10836.025,"end":10839.107,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":10858.098,"end":10859.159,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":10888.138,"end":10902.489,"text":"另外,國人關心的大型車輛肇事,每年大卡車、大貨車、大型車輛肇事一年大概有8000件,一年死在大車輪下超過300人,受傷將近萬人,死亡306,受傷9664人。"},{"start":10910.373,"end":10936.041,"text":"那時候就交通部推一個計劃從2022年起就是大車都強制要裝視野輔助預警系統那第一期應該也執行完畢了那為什麼反而大車的肇事件數造成的死傷人數仍然每年都增加為什麼請交通部要提出檢討報告來"},{"start":10937.833,"end":10959.238,"text":"所以我們每天看到新聞大車肇事都是很慘累的啦那交通部為什麼放任他那提的對策也都沒有用過去那個事業無助系統政府也花了那麼多錢為什麼沒有辦法降低大車的肇事和死傷人數這個也提個報告我也提凍結10%第72案那第71案我現在發現"},{"start":10964.025,"end":10974.495,"text":"很多的危險路口其實最危險的是在斑馬線因為行人會走斑馬線但是你手法不一定安全因為我們的斑馬線啊都沒有照明"},{"start":10975.819,"end":11004.547,"text":"政府法規有規定斑馬縣的照明亮度但是都沒有在執行這個應該大部分都是地方政府要執行那地方政府如果沒有執行這一塊所以我們發現造勢的案件尤其死亡車禍幾乎都是在晚上照理講晚上車量應該比較少但反而A1死傷的車禍是白天的兩倍那其中最主要原因都是照明不明顯"},{"start":11005.782,"end":11006.042,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11015.851,"end":11032.048,"text":"因此我們交通部應該要跟地方政府檢討新能穿越道就是斑馬線的照明問題應該要把它列為對於地方政府交通考核評比的一個重要項目所以本期就本預算就交通運輸規範產業凍結10%請交通部3個月內提報告好謝謝"},{"start":11038.961,"end":11056.439,"text":"何欣淳委員提出第76案,除了剛剛其他委員在講的有關大型車輛或行人安全、用路交通安全的宣導跟執行,還有我想交通部也一定要做到位。"},{"start":11058.1,"end":11074.41,"text":"道交基本法及上次修的道交整個管理條例在在都是希望整個交通安全能夠受到最高度的重視能夠確保所有用戶人的安全在我第76案裡面特別有提到在談高齡者安全的問題"},{"start":11080.493,"end":11085.378,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建公路基金-國道公路基金-國道公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金"},{"start":11100.114,"end":11116.554,"text":"負擔主要的造勢責任的事故死傷人數卻達整體之百分之16.7而且其中屬於這個機車事故者高達百分之17那也意思就是說同樣汽車機車那大家"},{"start":11117.415,"end":11125.503,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建公路基金-國道公路基金-國道公路基金-國道公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金"},{"start":11139.377,"end":11143.019,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建公路基金-國道公路基金-國道公路基金"},{"start":11153.985,"end":11177.022,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11178.002,"end":11205.187,"text":"憲導人民交通安全的重要性和守法的重要性但是我希望交通部是不是給我們一個更好的書面報告除了你們設定的KPI之外從量跟值你們到底是怎麼做的這個質性的報告事實上是更重要的因為從質性的報告裡面我們才能夠知道你們是用什麼方式在做宣導那宣導到底正不正確有沒有投"},{"start":11206.067,"end":11207.808,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11228.441,"end":11250.512,"text":"從人本交通的推動觀念裡面我們現在要改善標線、標誌、號誌、行人措施包括我剛剛講的人行道都跟以前的觀念跟設計模式是不一樣的但是呢我們人民的觀念有沒有跟得上比如說我們現在在地方上做了很多的人行道但是呢備受質疑"},{"start":11251.564,"end":11252.305,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":11269.707,"end":11296.372,"text":"那我們在道路的標誌標線還有所謂的號誌的設計上我們是如何橫頻來設計我們的設計規範跟理念又是什麼我覺得這個都必須要在宣導裡面要去告訴大家因為大家全民都能夠在這樣子的一個好的一個友善的交通環境裡面那才能夠真正的第一個守規守法第二個保護所有用路人安全包括我剛剛在講的高齡駕駛者的安全"},{"start":11299.013,"end":11303.335,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11322.444,"end":11323.024,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11344.574,"end":11370.731,"text":"在換照制度之前75歲已經領有駕照的人他不用換照而這一群人到目前為止我們交通部並沒有精準的掌握這些人他的這個交通習性他的交通的這個用路的一個認知還有他的身體狀況那這些人可能就是我們剛剛在講的他是比較可能是高危險造勢的族群"},{"start":11371.271,"end":11396.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11396.613,"end":11417.568,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11417.708,"end":11427.731,"text":"要求要凍結3000萬的預算凍結數額多少我覺得可以討論但是希望真的要做到我剛剛提醒的這兩個大部分的一個訴求謝謝"},{"start":11436.41,"end":11464.749,"text":"謝謝主席、各位同仁本席另有提第87案是關於我們台灣新車安全平等精進計畫台灣以前國產車是沒有在做安全平等沒有做碰撞測試所以在我們過去幾年本席也跟很多同仁我們推動之下現在台灣的新車就我們國產車的碰撞的安全平等也納入了"},{"start":11466.29,"end":11474.62,"text":"但是這項計畫執行起來,到像今年度的預算到2024年10月只有66.5還有兩款新車沒有公佈評測結果"},{"start":11479.85,"end":11482.512,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11502.466,"end":11524.155,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11524.369,"end":11546.471,"text":"原本我們就是說希望能夠,剛剛預算省長有提到你說明年要變成到八款車型今年因為只有執行六款另外兩款業者是自費受測其實國產車的有碰撞車式的覆蓋率也不到四成"},{"start":11547.833,"end":11568.912,"text":"所以我們未來如何持續的推動國產車的安全評比讓消費者可以在買車的時候有很清楚的了解到你的車子的安全平等應該要全面推動以外也要持續鼓勵業者你要投入自費的平等來提高這個覆蓋率所以本期建議這個預算"},{"start":11570.954,"end":11587.371,"text":"就是我們在交通運輸規範產業發展向下的臺灣新造安全平等基金計劃凍結十分之一請交通部三個委員提計劃如何提升平等的覆蓋率以及如何增加業者自費平等提出諮問報告後再請通知好謝謝"},{"start":11588.208,"end":11591.651,"text":"主席,我的提案是第83案主要的一個標題跟剛剛郡縣委員講的是一樣的這個案子所謂的TNCAP,台灣新車安全評定我覺得對整個這個未來買車的人是一個非常重要的一個訊息"},{"start":11609.446,"end":11624.909,"text":"但是因為在過去我們可能第三年前兩年在做的時候這效益沒有產生沒有產生到底評定的如何那也不知道但是在評定的過程中居然產生了類似洩密的一個情況之前林委員也質詢過"},{"start":11625.93,"end":11650.265,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11650.265,"end":11664.77,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11665.213,"end":11681.869,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11684.485,"end":11707.937,"text":"1.87億將近是112年的一倍那你們回報也是8款跟112年都是一樣我們安全車是8款為什麼將近多這麼多錢你們要把它放在裡面是要給車安中心或者給誰去用那你要講清楚不然大家你要還有什麼要設備要買我覺得這都要講清楚不然數字不對然後你們也說"},{"start":11709.985,"end":11734.341,"text":"114年編的這個錢預計8輛檢測目前有兩家車廠自願送驗按理說你只要自費去買6輛車所以這個錢怎麼樣去多我是看不懂不過還是要提醒一下因為車輛測試必須公平所以自己送來的車是不是引狼入室特殊裝潢特殊"},{"start":11735.802,"end":11761.901,"text":"這個強度的這個你們都要去考量但如果只要有騙一次的要騙一次要最嚴重的如果他自己送院好事嘛省國家經費但他如果送來是特殊加強結構或者按照我們測試的標準去改的這個一次之後大概這個就要就應該要把打入地獄那最後我要說"},{"start":11763.82,"end":11780.917,"text":"我們2022、2023就是去年也做了一個測試這個檢測然後評定那評定的過程中那我看到TOYOTA的CROSS他的車種就是五星級就公布出來了那到底為什麼洩密這個你們要講清楚那"},{"start":11784.144,"end":11786.285,"text":"同一時間發現Toyota對10款車從2014年到2020年造假撞擊測試全面造假角度的變騙不是騙台灣人騙世界"},{"start":11804.789,"end":11805.01,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11822.483,"end":11841.937,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11842.037,"end":11868.95,"text":"可是問題他的專業度他的守密程度最後他評比出來的KPI跟對民眾的價值我覺得要顯現出來哪個好哪個壞你真的在市場上面要有價值不然你明明在那邊做欸兄弟你這個車做得不好你可以再改善一下我們預算不是要做這個事情所以我覺得因為過去在這個車輛預算我們覺得有稍微多邊了"},{"start":11871.311,"end":11875.873,"text":"直行方面守密度不夠,需要改善配額部分3.3千萬"},{"start":11888.967,"end":11917.315,"text":"謝謝主席本席提出了48到51還有53共5個案子那48的部分是針對我們交通部跟運營所提出一個營造深度減碳的一個運輸計畫那截至目前交通部還沒有報請行政院核定那請交通部盡快研議整合運營所相關單位的計畫我想這個是對我們這個整個低碳交通區的一個推動引導很重要的一個計畫請交通部加快辦理"},{"start":11918.396,"end":11930.953,"text":"第2、49案是針對道路行人交通安全的部分我們希望有效降低交通事故死亡人數也請交通部盡快提出整體評估精進計畫"},{"start":11933.977,"end":11940.006,"text":"第五十案針對自衛運輸部分目前執行進度有明顯落差請交通部研議針對地方政府強化補助案件審查管控部分強化"},{"start":11949.378,"end":11975.731,"text":"那第51項就呈如剛剛我們那個具現委員提到TNCAP這個部分的做法要研議那這部分本期是希望要求要凍結這個交通運輸規劃及產業發展5000萬的一個預算那針對53案的部分因為現在屏東縣這個偏鄉的這個交通問題希望能夠交通部能夠支持包含幸福巴士跟小黃公車的部分能夠有效的這個強化這個一個"},{"start":11978.152,"end":12001.721,"text":"解決這個大眾運輸不足的問題那尤其我們這個屏東縣的這個交通事故很多的因素是因為大眾運輸的不足那很多鄉親以機車為交通工具尤其是一些長輩那造成了一個事故的死亡的部分比例很高所以我們希望交通部能夠針對這個一個偏鄉的運輸的部分包含幸福巴士跟小黃公車能夠強化的"},{"start":12003.442,"end":12016.58,"text":"強化一個我們一個補助的一個改善方案那這部分本期是提案要求凍結這個500萬元那請交通部提出書面報告後使得動之謝謝徐副魁委員那民進憲委員要再發言嗎"},{"start":12021.347,"end":12044.799,"text":"謝謝主席本期提議第107案這個為什麼今年的執行率那麼差我想請交通部說明一下因為這個是要訂一個規則給地方政府來執行規劃低碳交通區還有交通場域節能減碳因為你這個規則先訂出來未來地方政府他才有機會來爭取相關的獎補助費用"},{"start":12048.721,"end":12065.586,"text":"所以如果你這個相關要點還有推動指引你都訂不出來那未來的繳補助費你怎麼去執行所以對於107案本席提案是凍結十分之一就是深度營造簡單計劃這個整理計劃6000萬裡面凍結十分之一請交通部上個月內提計劃再解凍謝謝"},{"start":12071.73,"end":12071.911,"text":"提案委員提案"},{"start":12089.873,"end":12090.234,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12113.996,"end":12115.518,"text":"機車燃料使用費及交通違規罰款徵收收入分配於道路主管機關運用"},{"start":12128.336,"end":12143.353,"text":"議議員議員"},{"start":12143.393,"end":12159.54,"text":"的部分能夠比照大安綱要計劃的五大面向,定定運用的比例,設計相關查查機制以精準的聚焦大安經費的使用情形。我們希望交通部能夠提出書面報告,然後使得動之。我是提動解10%"},{"start":12161.101,"end":12161.501,"text":"第88案針對新車安全平等經濟"},{"start":12178.67,"end":12205.019,"text":"確實能夠落實所以這個部分我也是提凍結預算10%那希望交通部在三個月內提出書面報告後時的動之再來第91案的部分就是有關行政業務這個預算數本席也是提案凍結10%那希望就是交通部能夠積極協調民航局、淘氣公司及各航空公司能夠"},{"start":12206.119,"end":12208.601,"text":"加強溝通,強化機場內的智慧化設備運用提增進整個服務水準第96案有關交通運輸規劃及產業發展向下的智慧運輸系統發展建設計劃114年至117年要開始第三期計劃"},{"start":12235.759,"end":12257.517,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12258.017,"end":12258.298,"text":"委員委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12272.811,"end":12273.011,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12293.496,"end":12321.635,"text":"本席是提凍結預算數10%然後希望就是交通部可以針對目前執行的這個計畫然後檢討有需要再更加的精進的一個部分然後希望對於提供未來第三期的一個執行可以提供參考的一個部分包括控管、審核的各個面向那這個部分本席希望就是說要求交通部能夠提出書面報告後時的凍結"},{"start":12322.836,"end":12348.603,"text":"然後最後一個案就是有關營造深度減碳運輸環境計打造低耗能交通場域計劃這個部分我們在明年度是編列6000萬元的一個經費要來也是講補助費要用於補助直轄市及各縣市政府建立低碳交通示範區這樣子的一個計劃可是這部分本是比較"},{"start":12349.343,"end":12370.862,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12371.142,"end":12397.49,"text":"百分之十的預算然後建請交通部能夠訂定低碳交通區補助作業要點與推動的指引的一個時程權責劃分之通案性的指導原則然後所以這部分希望就是交通部能夠提出書面報告後時的動質好那以上那是不是請交通部根據剛剛所有委員的提案有就是詢問的部分然後做一個完整的說明謝謝"},{"start":12404.654,"end":12419.145,"text":"各位委員那中總我想就供應司這邊相關業務的部分我先做一個報告那中總剛剛委員所這個提案跟這個槌尋的部分的話大概有四大課題那第一大課題就是有關於包括"},{"start":12419.825,"end":12436.52,"text":"油耗委員及經營委員關系大型車安全部分。大型客車部分,包括市區客運、公路客運及遊覽車客運的部分,基本上全部要裝GPS上動態系統。"},{"start":12438.461,"end":12467.088,"text":"公司上下半年都要有這個教育訓練。針對文文關切的可能在大型貨車貨運的這個部分在法規裡面雖然是沒有明文規定要上下半年有這個教育訓練但是這個部分公路局現在是透過EIS就是風險控管的部分每一家貨運公司每個月他這個駕駛人還有車輛的違規紀錄都在這個有做一個中整那只要超過這個預警的部分的話"},{"start":12467.648,"end":12484.158,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附"},{"start":12496.425,"end":12515.725,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12515.725,"end":12530.742,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12530.862,"end":12531.022,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12555.333,"end":12555.493,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12573.524,"end":12590.879,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12590.879,"end":12612.5,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12613.481,"end":12638.535,"text":"國內經過一個禮拜再發布出來剛好也是這一個就是五顆星那中間有這樣子誤解大概包括部裡面包括這一個河灘那邊大概都有都要做這個說明那第三個部分的話剛剛委員有提到112年同樣這個這個八個車型跟今年跟明年要回顧到八個車型邊的預算會有點差異的部分我跟這個我報告一下因為"},{"start":12640.776,"end":12654.344,"text":"檢測一型車必須要買適量車適量車的部分我跟委員報告一下比如說明年要測試特斯拉的電動車Model Y車價會有不一樣另外一個部分在112年"},{"start":12666.911,"end":12684.941,"text":"檢測費用每款應該是要1100萬當時在112年的時候因為抱怨核定只有核定這一個800萬所以他就自己吸收了現在113到117的部分那個每行車的檢測費用是核定1100萬就是回顧到正常所以這個費用有一點這個不一樣"},{"start":12689.384,"end":12689.785,"text":"議員法定人數不足"},{"start":12708.268,"end":12709.808,"text":"貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款貸款"},{"start":12736.295,"end":12750.74,"text":"包括徐富可委員及金縣委員及所有委員有關切到低碳交通區的部分。低碳交通區的部分其實前兩年金縣委員所關切的預算執行部分是運營所在做前置的規劃"},{"start":12751.62,"end":12773.232,"text":"前置的規劃是要完成所謂提供給地方政府建置地攤交通區的執印另外一個就是說透過委外的研究提出一個補助作業要點的草案目前這個案子他們已經完成期末報告所以期末報告結束之後最後一筆款付出去的話大概僅這個預算的執行應該都會符合規定"},{"start":12776.834,"end":12794.053,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12794.213,"end":12816.428,"text":" bicyclist 指引和補助作業要點就會完成定班提供給地方政府來做參考。在目前整個過程當中,我們也跟各縣市地方政府,包括高雄、台南,他們有意願,未來要推出示範地攤交通區的部分,目前都有在做。"},{"start":12817.609,"end":12819.912,"text":"第四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":12838.932,"end":12853.945,"text":"現行這個分配給六都的棄燃費的一個部分的話在每年要提這個工作計畫說現在是跟這個刀安的綱要計畫扣合在一起那另外一個部分的話在這個法院分配辦法也剛這個完成做這個討論"},{"start":12856.727,"end":12872.918,"text":"告核道安鋼藥計劃道路交通安全改善經費列入可使用範圍,此部分持續在辦理當中。以上我先重點做一個報告。知識運輸的部分你好像沒有說明。"},{"start":12880.205,"end":12881.667,"text":"智慧運輸負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼"},{"start":12897.285,"end":12914.561,"text":"年初辦採購,年底陸續結案。所以在整個預算執行率的部分有先緩後快的特性那也跟昭緯跟徐議員報告,事實上我們統計的結果到年底我們的進度已經趕上來,超過90%另外我們後續還是會持續來強化對於補助案件的審議,尤其剛剛昭緯所特別提點的"},{"start":12922.708,"end":12941.218,"text":"已經建立了所謂的管考督導機制我們會邀請除了我們自己把關之外也會邀請外部的專家委員來進行審查跟把關另外我們也會在適當的時候去實地訪視地方來做他辦理的情況來掌握他整個的內容"},{"start":12941.658,"end":12957.239,"text":"至於您所關切的彰化縣這一塊我們專案輔導我們已經確定他在114年會把前期的這個計畫做完我們也會確實輔導他在這個14年的大概下半年來提115之後的有關ITS這個計畫"},{"start":12958.26,"end":12986.241,"text":"另外剛剛林國成委員所關心特別跟您報告就是在自衛運輸這一塊我們在1110到113的這個第二期那我們也完成了相當多的這個舉例重要的是跟您所口頭的報告第一個我們完成的這個非號速跨入口的風險警示的系統的指引也在174處的入口建置了這樣的警示那由這個臺中市政府交通局的資料顯示那它的這個造勢率"},{"start":12986.941,"end":13006.528,"text":"降低63%確定在114年這塊已經透過預算擴散到其他各縣市我們希望有這樣好的成效另外我們在各縣市也推動了智慧交通中心甚至更大的所謂的暫停市除了去改善各個智慧廊道的交通擁捨"},{"start":13008.169,"end":13024.089,"text":"包括各縣市在辦跨年等等這些輸運包括高雄的這個演唱會的經濟等等也包括屏東墾丁這一塊的這個路廊的改善也就很好的成效那我們在114年也持續提供這樣的一個補助那另外就是在"},{"start":13026.472,"end":13043.237,"text":"交通數據流通TTX除了過往公共運輸資料提供,我們現在也會在這個平台上擴充,在114年要擴充充電樁、交通事件還有所謂的路測設施,之後這些資訊到了TTX的平台之後,"},{"start":13043.797,"end":13066.732,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13066.792,"end":13079.512,"text":"保障保護學生通行安全,透過AI辨識方式在學區附近偵測學生通行安全,讓同學更加有保障。"},{"start":13081.251,"end":13104.125,"text":"再跟委員會這邊做報告因為這個科目是交通運輸規劃及產業發展它是一個業務計畫那它業務計畫下面會編了有三種用途別包含業務費、包含設備投資還有獎補助那這個業務費下面呢正好有委辦費和政令宣導費我們剛剛前面已經委員這邊已經決定刪減了委辦費一千萬然後這個政令宣導費兩千兩百萬所以我們建議是不是能夠懇請委員"},{"start":13109.969,"end":13113.676,"text":"不要再刪減只用凍結的方式來處理因為已經刪掉3200萬了謝謝"},{"start":13117.927,"end":13147.927,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":13148.287,"end":13152.51,"text":"預算編列是講補助費會補助給地方政府去執行的在這邊包括林國成委員針對智慧運輸系統要3.2億元這個部分本席在這邊做一個補充說明因為這部分應該有一半60%是講補助費所以是要給地方執行"},{"start":13175.683,"end":13202.057,"text":"包括臺北市政府或新北市政府他們有案要申請的話如果你兩億都把它刪掉了他們要來申請就沒有錢給他們了包括我剛剛提的我們彰化縣有來送案我們也是會就是經過審核之後會給他所以這部分我們就是是不是建議就凍結不要刪減那我們是不是這一個科目我們就做一個來併案處理那林國成委員有要再補充謝謝"},{"start":13203.758,"end":13218.869,"text":"我比較重視其他我提的案子主席如何才我都尊重60案的部分我是蠻堅持因為陸老師這個部分我是認為要稍微"},{"start":13220.37,"end":13247.643,"text":"這個部分可以用凍結來解決九十三案你們講了老半天講了天花亂墜事實上來講真正的問題真正的問題是裡面弊案重重你們都不談不談所以我特別已經跟你們報告黨團已經發現這個問題所以你如果不讓我刪我也同意就送黨團協商"},{"start":13249.189,"end":13276.049,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13278.706,"end":13293.383,"text":"如果說林委員剛剛有提到就是60案可以改凍結嘛齁那這個等一下我們就是並安處理那針對第93案的部分你堅持要刪減那我們是不是我就針對智慧運輸這個部分我們就刪減500萬好不好然後再加凍結啦齁"},{"start":13299.77,"end":13299.79,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":13319.01,"end":13332.321,"text":"責任已了,因為黨團是對這一件是很有,所以其他主席怎麼採我都沒有意見,那是我看出來的。他說補助給地方政府60%是哪一個部分?講補助費啦。就講補助費?60%喔?那60%的部分給他嗎?60%的部分給他,其他?"},{"start":13346.543,"end":13370.916,"text":"給縣市政府這個把他刪減的話沒有啦給縣市政府裡面就是糧又不起然後弊端重重給縣市政府這沒辦法的是非得不可啦對啦但是你最起碼的話刪了以後那裡面地方政府是有限啦講不出多少錢"},{"start":13372.932,"end":13385.743,"text":"是2億的還是1億的?總補助?2億嗎?4.53億喔?那60呢?60%多少?總補助都是給地方政府的啦你扣掉60%還剩多少?"},{"start":13406.218,"end":13426.768,"text":"因為國交委員主張3、2億嘛對不對?我說2億,這裡面60%的部分先給你們嗎?陳志跟各位委員報告,事實上...你講快一點講快一點一個2.75億是要做前瞻這些東西,如果這一塊一直從100...呃...從106年做到現在,有這樣的一個成就...因為你預算有增加嘛,這裡增加很多嘛其實..."},{"start":13429.286,"end":13432.329,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通部主管交通部主管"},{"start":13456.79,"end":13467.936,"text":"你怎麼說明?要3.2億嗎?如果委員真正說跟去年來比的話我是只增加1.5億增加1.5億?對,實際上跟去年來比增加1.5億然後這1.5億就剛剛說的我要佈設的點又更多了那2億不用?不然3.5千萬嗎?"},{"start":13482.043,"end":13484.384,"text":"知會的系統到底比去年增加1.5億,那這1.5億是要"},{"start":13505.21,"end":13532.456,"text":"給誰的嘛那你趕快講清楚如果是給地方政府的對啊你要講清楚啦講清楚如果是必須必要的那我們當然要支持啊是這個部分就是在年底審完之後看看各縣他提的這個案子我們審完目前有哪些地方政府有提啊有提案了嗎縣市政府有提案了嗎有提案了啊我都不知道"},{"start":13534.637,"end":13555.889,"text":"二十二個縣市二十二個縣市都有提嗎?每個縣市都有嗎?你在這裡是有錄影錄影的你要講清楚啦他現在是1.5億現在我們預算通過他才開始分啦你懂了沒有那我分多少你分多少這樣子嘛是不是所以你要講清楚啦好沒關係那黃建豪委員我本來是很溫和凍結300萬但是你這樣講不清楚我來問一下"},{"start":13562.021,"end":13562.802,"text":"智慧運輸系統發展建設計劃-國道公路建設計劃"},{"start":13582.43,"end":13608.307,"text":"這句話講清楚嗎?這樣我們才知道說錢到底去哪裡啦每個縣市都有然後分成基礎型、政策型跟所謂競爭型那現階段在部裡面來審議那年底之前我們會把審議的結果會呈到部長這邊然後就開始執行所以在部裡作業當中對啊你審議結果還沒出來就已經把錢編出來了"},{"start":13611.449,"end":13611.769,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13641.049,"end":13659.957,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13659.977,"end":13684.612,"text":"那你要告訴我如果像我剛剛的說法臺中市政府要提出第二期第三期第四期延續性的你要不要支持到底有沒有那需不需要這1.5億嘛那你要講清楚你不要含糊好不好我們都在幫忙你希望這筆預算能夠留下來不要被刪但是你要講清楚拜託好接下來請魯敏小召委"},{"start":13685.312,"end":13714.012,"text":"謝謝主席這個案子我本來沒有提啦在旁邊路人看都生氣了就是說你們再解釋這樣好不好拜託我就拜託你一下因為對於所有委員大家都聽得很清楚7.28億你們編算一定有來源從金額最大的列10條給我們我們就知道桃園哪一條嘛來麻煩你列一下這樣就好了7.28億譬如說3億是什麼名稱列出來嘛基本上都是你交通部在用的嘛"},{"start":13714.753,"end":13734.172,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13735.814,"end":13736.854,"text":"臺北市、苗栗縣、高雄"},{"start":13764.685,"end":13778.415,"text":"以台北市來說,基本上在112年的話,我們核定了2200至於高雄的部分1400然後在苗栗的部分1100彰化800"},{"start":13782.005,"end":13783.268,"text":"平東-1900、花蓮-1200、台東-3600、澎湖-2300等這是有關交通的耗資的部分"},{"start":13802.122,"end":13812.934,"text":"剛才他是指說桃園的部分列出來念出來對阿那在這邊各縣市的話也沒有到桃園剛才魯明哲文他要提的部分阿那你剛才念的不會也沒有南投縣阿"},{"start":13814.048,"end":13841.967,"text":"來部長部長我是不是建議啦吼我們這一條先第一個你趕快先把資料先找出來你把過去已經執行的預算數到底怎麼執行的所有的細目跟計畫內容你準備一份給我們交通委員會那現在在審明年度的預算你又打算怎麼執行是不是更詳細的一個計畫內容要執行的告訴我們那"},{"start":13843.368,"end":13868.807,"text":"請各位委員來支持這個是給地方的預算我們希望能夠著動那趕快把資料給我們啦好不好不然在這裡拖著也不是辦法啊是是是好那李坤傑委員好謝謝那我看這筆預算裡面其實我們要了解一個重點裡面有4.5億是補助地方政府的"},{"start":13870.329,"end":13885.468,"text":"獎補助的這個主要的經費來源那我們看六都啊大概是1億9那其他各縣市有2億5這是這筆經費4.5億裡面一個很重要的比例那"},{"start":13887.206,"end":13906.347,"text":"這一筆經費剛才何欣淳委員已經講出重點了你們在過去相關的各縣市的補助趕快去整理給各個交通委員會的委員另外一個重點剛才何欣淳委員也講到我們這一筆獎勵補助地方的項目是什麼要讓大家知道"},{"start":13907.068,"end":13933.736,"text":"那其實我們這個是獎勵各縣市政府建置地方區域或是廊道協同的智慧交通管理系統這個要清楚讓大家知道還有都市智慧道路的安全系統還有智慧交通的行動服務共享運具的平台建置還有跨運具無縫交通服務整合"},{"start":13934.736,"end":13960.551,"text":"更重要的還有偏鄉或弱勢者的公共運輸服務推廣及運用大數據進行運輸的整合規劃等等這個智慧交通在這幾任的交通部長都視為是一個重要推動的交通政策那這個對於相關各縣市政府的補助是達到4.5億"},{"start":13962.532,"end":13989.849,"text":"包含六都以及各縣市那其他剛才我也向大家報告這些針對各縣市所要補助的項目是什麼大家我認為這個比例算是應該要讓他通過啦是應該要讓他通過那其實講到重點是對於過去你們所做的這一些相關的補助是如何也必須要應該能夠清楚的說明"},{"start":13991.185,"end":14006.622,"text":"在這邊我跟交通部再提示一下在過去不管藍綠的交通部長或是藍綠時期的交通部針對交通委員會所提的相關的預算審核"},{"start":14007.847,"end":14028.274,"text":"在以往各局處都會積極的向各委員來做說明所以在審查預算之前委員大概都會知道這個預算問題在哪邊這個預算的用途它的編列到底是怎樣其實經過交通部的說明委員都會參佐實際的狀況來針對預算的刪減做一個重新的思考"},{"start":14034.136,"end":14054.711,"text":"但是這一次,我看你們部本部啊,不整齊在這次都在補一些基本觀念的問題基本觀念的問題啦,我坦白說啦那真的是要大家交通部,請部長好好地督促各局處要對各委員的提案啊,要加強地進行溝通及說明,以上"},{"start":14055.469,"end":14076.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14078.725,"end":14089.921,"text":"繼續處理109到118案。好那有關營業基金的部分那我們在這邊是不是請提案委員是不是做一個徵詢請林沛翔委員謝謝。針對桃園機場這個部分其實"},{"start":14094.227,"end":14117.665,"text":"桃園機場不只是說我們第三航廈已經工程有延誕而且再包括說一二航廈基本上我記得我曾經諮詢過他們每半年就有一次可能漏水或者有一些實質上的缺陷所以說為確保預算有效使用尊潔政府預算一例開源節流所以我建議是凍結50%"},{"start":14120.487,"end":14138.816,"text":"然後要提所謂的專案報告在6個月之內而且部長那個桃園機場的事情總是我們每個人都關心啊不論哪個黨派都關心我們的國家門戶然後一天到晚出狀況那我們先凍結50%重點是說總是要知道有什麼樣的改善吧"},{"start":14139.176,"end":14165.872,"text":"不是說針對是桃園機場來針對什麼而是說國人也想知道總不能出個國然後一天到晚有人從天上掉下來還是一天到晚漏水還是一天到晚出現一些狀況那這個我們總是要知道說而且明年我記得沒有錯的話好像桃園機場的旅客量好像會大增到4500萬人以上我記得好像有這個數字4700萬人還是4500萬人以上我上次諮詢過那如果是這樣的話第三行下什麼時候使用"},{"start":14166.392,"end":14186.549,"text":"使用的話會不會造成一樣的狀況?那怎麼樣去彌補一、二行下的缺陷?我想這件事情專案報告六個月之內我想這是不違規的狀況。以上。好,謝謝。還有沒有提案委員要遵循?何欣淳委員,謝謝。好,謝謝。本席提的是第118案。那一樣,我也很關心桃園國際機場的一個"},{"start":14192.654,"end":14217.363,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14217.823,"end":14245.458,"text":"還有移工的合配比例包括合配之後移工的逃跑率非常之高這個東西到底有沒有對策對工程的進度影響又是如何我們希望陶希在這一方面尤其我們董事長是工程出身是不是能夠更專業的去督導"},{"start":14246.118,"end":14271.271,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14271.972,"end":14279.197,"text":"此動議結束,大家可討論,但希望能有陶姬更精進管理措施的熟面報告。"},{"start":14287.465,"end":14308.602,"text":"主席主席我的提案是第110案主要針對於台鐵公司當然這是要給台鐵公司的錢總共是209億多元那我這邊提動議員的原因是因為一年已經過去了台鐵公司在之前交通部長行政院長甚至台鐵公司的當時的"},{"start":14309.923,"end":14333.063,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14333.183,"end":14360.201,"text":"mentioned 17 項安全改革事項還有組織改革一項及營運改革一項尚未解除當然這只是書面報告一直沒有得到解決方案具體上面我們也發覺在民營化包括了這將近11個多月來也發生了大小公安事件人員處理不善的很多奇奇怪怪的事件"},{"start":14363.063,"end":14378.831,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":14381.497,"end":14385.841,"text":"第4目營業基金提議第115案針對台鐵公司營業所需基礎設施重置計劃提案凍結預算數5千萬元介於之前台北車站"},{"start":14404.741,"end":14408.783,"text":"更新設置試行新型列車站務資訊看板,被民眾反映比原來舊版本更沒有那麼詳細。希望交通部針對台體公司未來全台新式列車資訊看板設置工程"},{"start":14427.013,"end":14444.118,"text":"及TIDS自體設計與改善進度等等,然後提出書面報告後,使得動之。那針對第四幕營業基金這個部分,委員的提案都是凍結案。那凍結案的話,有提案凍結一億,還有五千萬的,"},{"start":14445.879,"end":14475.555,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14475.915,"end":14476.055,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":14504.238,"end":14518.945,"text":"當然這個東西國道基金的部分最主要是這個數位韌性的部分啦就是網路電纜的一個管道的部分那當然交通部有單位來溝通過但是還是沒有辦法說服我說為什麼數位韌性這件事情不是速發部"},{"start":14519.565,"end":14543.968,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14544.008,"end":14544.708,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14571.833,"end":14594.34,"text":"當院大頭幫事務發布花這一筆錢這樣子好那我們請交通部說明是跟委員會報告齁那這個數位任性的部分他主要是在提供齁就是說國五道以南藉由國五的一個一個路廊的一個範圍齁來建設一個共同一個管道那我們只建管道未來的光南部分是數位部他去再做處理的一個出租但是"},{"start":14595.52,"end":14621.665,"text":"租租的費用是我們的收益未來的話就是說他只要有那個光染進來的時候那我們會來跟他說租金來回饋到我們那個建設的一個費用你們這個租金辦法出來了沒有沒有辦法回本這是我們回本倒是比較難因為這主要部分對啊那就是我們在那個我們是依照公路用地使用費的一個規範那以後所有地方政府要做共同管線的時候是不是都可以請交通部幫忙出錢"},{"start":14622.554,"end":14633.192,"text":"來跟委員報告這個是比較特殊因為要經要往宜蘭的部分就是國五的一個廊帶這比較特別這那個我們現在現有的管道這沒有辦法說服我啊這到哪裡都不是重點啊重點是組織機關應該是誰啊"},{"start":14635.772,"end":14655.068,"text":"我們現在是不是就是說我們會來盡量來減少減少那個費率的部分那盡量能夠20年回本可不可以你們訂的費率20年回本我們來試著試試看那我希望這部分能夠下到決議之後我們交通部有關這個東西的收費標準是要能夠20年內回本"},{"start":14659.326,"end":14659.806,"text":"國道公路建設基金-梁委員"},{"start":14678.626,"end":14704.884,"text":"好那120案就不予處理了好那接下來我們處理第6目有關就是第121到123案有關都市大眾捷運系統建設計畫好那在這邊先說明122跟123案就是測案好那我們這樣子就是有121案那提案委員"},{"start":14708.697,"end":14733.782,"text":"提案委員其實是林倩熙委員拜託我跟尤浩來提的那這個案子主要是針對說我們高雄環狀捷運的輕軌捷運設計的時候在大順路跟在大順路那一段有動線的規劃可能會可能有一些可能不足的地方而且針對安全性可能有一些疑慮"},{"start":14735.402,"end":14752.098,"text":"所以特地想要說請交通部在三個月內提出專案報告然後再同意再繼續動之主要是因為說他這邊大順路這一段有動線上規劃跟安全性的問題以上好謝謝那是不是請交通部這邊做一個說明"},{"start":14754.597,"end":14768.155,"text":"跟委員報告,林委員非常關心高雄輕軌存款以後大順路入口的問題就我們跟高雄市政府相關單位聯繫事實上他們現在也積極的去改善各個入口的一些動線的規劃跟標誌標線號誌的一個"},{"start":14772.099,"end":14796.103,"text":"設置,即使它已經有一些成效,但我們會再跟高雄市政府相當,畢竟這個是他們的主管的一個業務,我們會持續的去了解高雄市政府改善的情形。很重要的也是要對民眾加強宣導,讓他知道經過路口的時候要注意哪些事情。那我們是不是具體建議凍結10%以提書面報告以上。"},{"start":14802.563,"end":14830.242,"text":"其實你們應該跟是林倩琦委員解釋因為他是高雄高雄高雄那邊領委所以說我沒有跟委員說明過了可是他剛剛來的時候跟我講說他還是堅持說需要一個專案報告所以說這方面來講可能要可能是要說服林倩琦委員而不是我而且主題主題案其實是有號有委員那基本上來講倩琦委員是擔心說有什麼狀況所以特地要我留下來再去再去了解這個狀況所以這點來講我是堅持的"},{"start":14837.025,"end":14857.075,"text":"謝謝各位關心山明區大順路有關輕軌交通的議題謝謝大家那有關於大順路的這些輕軌違規左轉的這個議題那其實我們在相關的高雄市交通的改善"},{"start":14858.796,"end":14885.215,"text":"秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦桂大順路重要交通幹道秦�"},{"start":14885.955,"end":14893.379,"text":"這個部分我們針對在目前的這種交通事故21起從8月到2024到8月有24起的這種21起的交通事故"},{"start":14901.082,"end":14918.66,"text":"第一個我們要請地方政府請高雄市政府加強相關的交通的宣導這也就是我剛才一再向各位提起的有關於重大的交通建設以及改善工程以及相關的交通號誌"},{"start":14919.821,"end":14939.616,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14940.016,"end":14961.904,"text":"這個部分我是建議我們會請高雄市政府因為我們終究不是高雄市議員我們是立法委員我們針對相關的大眾捷運系統的建設計畫這是違規左轉的議題怎麼會提到交通委員會來做討論呢那這個部分我做以上的說明"},{"start":14963.546,"end":14969.089,"text":"李昆哲委員李昆哲委員特別關心在當地的一個交通設施包括它整個輕軌的部分大眾捷運的部分去做一個討論"},{"start":14983.337,"end":15003.827,"text":"那當然說在這個部分來講除了就是剛才講的通通耗資跟這個宣導的部分那也因為林千祺委員他有提到那他那個區域還是要做一個整體的一個改善或是相關的一個規劃那才有助於那個地方在跟百貨商社李昆哲很關心高雄市的這個交通問題嘛"},{"start":15004.967,"end":15016.928,"text":"那所以說本席也是希望說林俊傑委員他有提到說槓擊10%以及說希望在就是交通部的單位能夠提出爆發的部分還能夠盡量來協助完成謝謝"},{"start":15021.367,"end":15035.08,"text":"李崑哲議員尊重召委的才是,我再一次的說明違規左轉,交通違國的議題在交通委員會來討論,然後要凍結相關的預算,還要提中案報告"},{"start":15036.221,"end":15052.603,"text":"我們必須要了解我們的職位到底是什麼?要明白我們對於交通政策所扮演的角色是什麼?左轉違規在這裡要提相關預算的凍結還要專案報告謝謝大家了謝謝了"},{"start":15053.629,"end":15054.87,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15082.185,"end":15083.926,"text":"則中央政府總預算案"},{"start":15097.976,"end":15111.726,"text":"則中就是書面報告我們還是同意凍結10%10%是針對10%啦10%那書面OK啦但是最主要是也跟林千祺委員這邊跟交通委員會的委員能夠一併說明這樣子"},{"start":15113.827,"end":15123.613,"text":"在這邊要再說明這個提案是針對6億8千5百40萬元這一個預算數的實盤這個科目就是高雄都會區輕軌運輸系統高雄環狀輕軌捷運建設計畫這個科目凍結10%提書面報告後時的凍支好謝謝接下來我們就處理這個決議案"},{"start":15143.004,"end":15143.224,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15152.383,"end":15176.449,"text":"好那我們剛剛保留的有關那個智慧運輸那個部分現在可以處理了那是不是請交通部這邊做一個一個充分的說明謝謝我說明一下跟各位委員們報告我們其實各縣市申請的這個金額其實都還蠻高的我們也有提供資料給大家來看差不多是10億多那我們當然目前我們也還沒核定那也還沒有過預算所以我們是希望至少要"},{"start":15176.869,"end":15206.869,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":15207.009,"end":15208.31,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":15221.881,"end":15244.76,"text":"那你就就那這樣就不要凍結了好不好好那我們就做一個處理我們那是不是我我是不是建議一下啦吼國政委員因為這個都是要補助給各地方政府的來你聽我講完啦讓我建議一下啦吼就是說因為是給地方政府而且地方政府提出來需求遠比我們現在在審議算數高那所以呢為了這個"},{"start":15246.321,"end":15271.929,"text":"請求各政黨我們所有的委員支持我們可以拙減但是不要到3000萬那麼多是拙減了2000萬也不要凍結好不好就這樣子啦好不好本來就國政委員跟其他委員大家幫忙一下對啦因為這些補助你看我們編的預算才4.5億各縣市政府現在剩下的就10億了"},{"start":15274.371,"end":15280.436,"text":"盧昭惟補充這個案子針對這7.28億裡面剛剛有給這個表地方政府其實要的金額事實上是超過10億我們目前核定補助的金額6.21億"},{"start":15297.569,"end":15323.611,"text":"那這個部分我覺得很奇怪那你核定錢不夠是用去年預算還是因為預算還沒有過我們也不敢先核啦有些核是核兩年一次也要核兩年所以就會拉長下去處理所以這個還是不一定的是吧核定完全不一定的要看我們這邊預算過多少那我現在是我有兩個問題第一個就既然還不確定我們可以委員大家來幫忙地方一下"},{"start":15324.292,"end":15349.514,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":15349.684,"end":15370.52,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":15370.66,"end":15375.625,"text":"我真的很計較違犯費違犯費去年9100萬今年變1.94億啊 你說得過去嗎違犯費不要再扯地方政府了好不好但我知道不管說傳說的交通幫或者有一些學者他們做研究我們很恭喜嘛"},{"start":15388.377,"end":15406.984,"text":"問題是說你這個錢多一億多你如果拿過來編給地方政府我就建議大家一毛不要三你這個細節部分4.5億變成5.5億給地方你委辦的計畫跟去年再多一點點而已我的想法就這樣阿如果不行的話你委辦費從9100多110倍"},{"start":15411.165,"end":15437.488,"text":"地方政府你才多4千這個說不過去啦那如果要刪我們當然是指定刪違犯費我們不刪地方政府好不好但能不能調整能不能調整在預算的你們明細部分調整地方政府是515515那其他部分那我們就來討論可不可以你們說明一下好請部長說明應該是可以吧你可以嗎你要不要說明一下"},{"start":15439.06,"end":15463.517,"text":"來啦說明清楚啦好那我們就科目自行調整就自行調整啦不是自行調整是那個自行調整必須是調整在委辦費裡面刪兩千萬啦對地方的繳補助不刪啦"},{"start":15466.826,"end":15466.946,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15492.944,"end":15511.084,"text":"119項"},{"start":15514.591,"end":15540.863,"text":"一百一十九案 跟各位委員報告這個一百一十九案最後原來的提案最後倒數第二行開始那個原來齊妥式那個這樣改為未來使用收費費率應以二十年能回收成本辦理好這樣OK好那我們廖新祥委員同意同意好那我們就請政府就是遵照辦理好好接下來我們來處理主決議"},{"start":15543.084,"end":15563.46,"text":"第124案遵照辦理然後第125案委員已經同意我們著作文字修正再倒數第二行改為加上資可行性就是補貼電費資可行性是委員有同意好125案有"},{"start":15565.578,"end":15565.598,"text":"126案"},{"start":15576.448,"end":15600.024,"text":"請教中部先說明目前那個針對這18起的霸凌事件那有做出檢討的機制那實際上可以再提供書面資料嗎可以再提供書面資料那還有這18起的他的調查的內容你們有做調查嗎有做調查OK那請再提供好OK改書面報告好那26126案改書面報告好127案遵照辦理好128案也是建議改書面"},{"start":15607.328,"end":15612.009,"text":"128案同意改書面129案同意改書面當時在交通委員會的時候有向我們交通部提出希望可以來做盤點那這邊後續有沒有再做盤點"},{"start":15628.183,"end":15647.056,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":15647.396,"end":15647.416,"text":"130案"},{"start":15665.778,"end":15678.67,"text":"這個也是一樣委員同意把專案改成書面好我們就改書面報告131案一樣也是專案改書面好改書面報告再來132案遵照辦理好133案遵照辦理134案遵照辦理135案"},{"start":15688.772,"end":15706.202,"text":"這個建議文字修正就是請交通部研議針對這個通行民眾提供補助措施。好,那個陳穎委員有同意。再來136案。 遵照。遵照辦理。好,137案。 遵照辦理。好,138案。 遵照辦理。139案。 遵照辦理。"},{"start":15714.195,"end":15736.336,"text":"一百四十案也是一樣這個建議把專案改成書面好我們一百四十案改書面報告好謝謝再來一百四十一案遵照辦理好謝謝再來一百四十二案遵照辦理好一百四十三案遵照辦理一百四十四案遵照辦理一百四十五案遵照辦理一百四十六案也是一樣這個專案建議改成書面"},{"start":15738.02,"end":15739.801,"text":"議員同意改書面報告議員同意改書面報告"},{"start":15767.439,"end":15794.719,"text":"一百五十五案 遵照辦理一百五十六案 遵照辦理一百五十七案 遵照辦理還有一案就是我們陳雪生委員的案這是一百五十七之一案這一案請交通部這邊有沒有要說明一百五十七之一陳雪生委員的案子"},{"start":15796.271,"end":15816.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":15818.91,"end":15821.332,"text":"本席補充宣告,針對智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫科目決議3減2000萬,科目自行調整"},{"start":15835.026,"end":15857.227,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":15859.284,"end":15864.63,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":15880.552,"end":15885.896,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":15923.089,"end":15945.405,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114"},{"start":15953.353,"end":15978.276,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":15981.745,"end":16004.062,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":16006.744,"end":16026.179,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16028.641,"end":16046.122,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16048.78,"end":16054.402,"text":"所以還有繼續縱持它嗎?對不對?就是原來縱持它還是原來的?對多減幾千?兩千萬而已"},{"start":16075.289,"end":16085.68,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16101.636,"end":16116.49,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16132.916,"end":16145.13,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16161.167,"end":16164.971,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16182.459,"end":16196.329,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16201.254,"end":16208.089,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":16216.274,"end":16237.86,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預"},{"start":16240.23,"end":16260.803,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16272.671,"end":16293.761,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16301.273,"end":16328.211,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":16339.434,"end":16340.638,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建公路基金"},{"start":16348.951,"end":16368.281,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16373.37,"end":16401.207,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":16408.053,"end":16423.708,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16431.425,"end":16460.754,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金"},{"start":16469.411,"end":16496.641,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":16506.169,"end":16513.617,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16590.932,"end":16601.327,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建"},{"start":16705.794,"end":16726.965,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16757.005,"end":16773.212,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建"},{"start":16794.377,"end":16817.238,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16817.91,"end":16842.038,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16849.966,"end":16865.848,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16879.422,"end":16903.007,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16915.23,"end":16923.811,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16945.973,"end":16971.117,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。二、繼續審查114"},{"start":16974.599,"end":16999.934,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":16999.974,"end":17026.76,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17038.339,"end":17052.626,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17068.66,"end":17072.065,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建基金-國道公路建基金-國道公路建基金"},{"start":17087.124,"end":17104.048,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17116.51,"end":17120.15,"text":"公路建公路建公路建公路"},{"start":17129.889,"end":17152.158,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17159.65,"end":17177.854,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17192,"end":17200.029,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":17211.733,"end":17224.724,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17229.016,"end":17241.144,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17248.669,"end":17261.258,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17276.829,"end":17296.357,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17302.088,"end":17328.14,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17331.852,"end":17357.28,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17363.063,"end":17390.839,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":17392.073,"end":17420.615,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17422.892,"end":17448.941,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":17455.531,"end":17471.475,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17591.235,"end":17618.284,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金"},{"start":17628.228,"end":17638.832,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17645.338,"end":17670.496,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17672.619,"end":17702.112,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營"},{"start":17708.541,"end":17728.069,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17738.456,"end":17742.579,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17749.48,"end":17752.002,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":17772.58,"end":17779.106,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17800.024,"end":17801.065,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":17824.718,"end":17827.959,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17847.517,"end":17867.91,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17868.89,"end":17880.853,"text":"國道公路建公路建平安應該公聽會會開公聽會會開 公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽會會開公聽"},{"start":17894.237,"end":17918.278,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":17928.854,"end":17952.311,"text":"好,那我們現在繼續開會那我們接下來處理交通部公路局及所屬114年度單位預算那我們先處理第一案有關稅入、規費收入公路局及所屬使用規費收入好,那這邊提案委員林俊憲委員是不是要說明?好,謝謝請林俊憲委員"},{"start":17955.271,"end":17981.85,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁我主要是說我們使用貴賓收入的服務費編列12億5000萬雖然比上一年度就比今年還多了將近1億但是你看過去3年都是135%、139%、148%所以我覺得是不是可以再積極一點建議此項收入明年增列1億元以上謝謝"},{"start":17983.424,"end":18007.857,"text":"好,那這部分是不是請交通部這邊說明?是,也跟委員報告,因為這個稅務的部分,它是有一些主要是來自那個標牌的發售,所以它有一點不確定性,不過委員的這個給我們的建議,我想我們會來努力,那是不是也跟委員報告,因為有跟委員辦公室提到,就是增列1億元的部分,我們是不是努力把它增列5千萬這樣子?"},{"start":18010.692,"end":18012.374,"text":"第二案提案委員保留"},{"start":18036.721,"end":18039.877,"text":"那麼就先處理第三到第七案業務費及委辦費"},{"start":18057.188,"end":18070.196,"text":"第3至7案其中第4案許智傑、吳立華委員提案第5案許智傑、吳立華委員提案第7案許智傑、吳立華委員提案改組決議"},{"start":18084.721,"end":18089.085,"text":"提案委員提案委員提案委員提案委員提案委員提案委員"},{"start":18111.886,"end":18111.906,"text":"第8項"},{"start":18118.269,"end":18145.474,"text":"公務員報告我們相關的做這個宣導其實主要都是因為公路局是做掌管這個公路所以像大概我們的有新闢的公路或者是比如說這個公路受到這個損害的時候其實都要做相關的一個那個比如說改道或者是這個封閉的一個說明那我們的很多的這一個在我們全國各地區的5區的洋務工程分局主要的其實都是跟景廣"},{"start":18146.334,"end":18175.727,"text":"做相關的一個合作所以相關的一個這個計畫都是屬於就是這個道路的一個宣導作用你沒有意見那我們就是凍結好不好我們每一組建設級業務宣導費我們就凍結10%十分之一然後提書面報告後使得凍支我們8到9案就做這樣子的一個處理謝謝那接下來我們就處理那個10到11案"},{"start":18176.547,"end":18177.889,"text":"十到十一案已經改組決議了。"},{"start":18204.25,"end":18220.217,"text":"主席、各位同仁本屆第32案在跟部長諮詢的時候也有特別提出來就是我們發現航空業者進出機場他去載運航空燃料油"},{"start":18221.497,"end":18223.199,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18234.195,"end":18260.407,"text":"我們發現用那種小貨車用那種白鐵現在白鐵一個攤子在機場載航空用油這種危險物品而且是經過媒體報導踢爆以後才讓外界知道已經用這種危險的方式載運油已經很長一段時間了可見這個管理有很大的缺失這個因為"},{"start":18262.468,"end":18284.915,"text":"臨時通勤證是跟我們公路局所申請的所以本席在第32案是凍結十分之一這是關於公路建立業務的一般事務費我們公路局應該針對在意危險物品的載重上限還有檢討在意危險物品的車輛是否有申請臨時通勤證要有一個查核機制而且因為同樣是部裡面的單位"},{"start":18286.476,"end":18288.998,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":18303.172,"end":18308.974,"text":"公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路"},{"start":18327.039,"end":18342.807,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18343.154,"end":18359.615,"text":"但是,我們也查到全國機車教訓班嚴重不足例如,台東縣只有一家有的地方是分布很不平均,像台南台南只有五家,全部集中在西南地區,西北地區都沒有"},{"start":18360.717,"end":18379.506,"text":"那其中全國的駕訓班87家主要都集中在都會區像新北、桃園、台中市所以這樣就降低民眾考照的意願因為有的地方是根本沒有有的是很不方便所以這個獎補助會補助民眾去考去上駕機車駕訓班考機車駕照用不完"},{"start":18382.824,"end":18399.375,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18412.483,"end":18429.856,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18442.125,"end":18458.268,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18458.528,"end":18463.112,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18479.653,"end":18484.655,"text":"林佩祥、林國成、魯明哲、張偉這幾個案子裡面我提的是28案跟37案那其實28案的話是徐欣怡委員拜託我提的不過我也深感認同因為說"},{"start":18499.619,"end":18515.386,"text":"國道客運則是跨縣市的公車。國道客運跨縣市公車的時候,不是只有基隆,包括新竹,包括很多地方都有這個狀況,就是收入不付出或班次路線無法符合民眾期待。所以在這邊本案提的說是凍結該項預算50%,"},{"start":18518.007,"end":18535.852,"text":"希望交通部督促公路局全面盤點跨縣市以及偏鄉大眾運輸班次等,讓民眾可以把他們迫切的交通需求解決,而且提出通案檢討改善方案,落實執行後向本委員會提出專案報告並同意。"},{"start":18536.492,"end":18542.376,"text":"第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建"},{"start":18566.329,"end":18593.74,"text":"考核制度上面似乎有制度上的設計不足跟審查適當的地方所以在這邊凍結預算2000萬以上謝謝林國成委員接下來要請林國成委員好 謝謝主席我想本席是提二十案跟二十一案跟二十二案那這重點重點看起來因為我刪得很兇就是要刪兩億"},{"start":18595.04,"end":18623.621,"text":"那主要原因啊主要的原因是交通部車輛行車鑑定、復譽以及鑑定的流程啊非常那個非常粗糙然後啊不經真實啊這幾例有一個泰國移工然後他們只看相片看一看就做出兩種一種是嚴重一種是不嚴重我也感覺到很奇怪"},{"start":18624.735,"end":18654.735,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18656.296,"end":18670.501,"text":"至於多少可以考慮另外我21案可以用凍結之方式凍結方式第二十二案的部分剛才我跟進縣也已經談過這個潮貫車給你們這麼多預算你們也是做不好車禍一年七十幾件"},{"start":18681.476,"end":18711.459,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18711.636,"end":18711.976,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":18734.053,"end":18757.841,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18757.961,"end":18783.05,"text":"公共運輸永續及交通平權計劃是為期4年的一個計劃我們希望你還是要說明的更詳盡一點尤其對於偏遠路線的一個虧損永續經營這很有趣因為現在這個不管是客運公車業者不斷的退場我看到快要斷頭了但是所以你們要怎麼樣阻止這樣一個頹勢那我這邊也是提凍結10%"},{"start":18789.193,"end":18791.954,"text":"六十一案客運車輛電動化推動計畫部分縣市落後不少"},{"start":18807.382,"end":18826.825,"text":"簽缺相關設備維修的相關的廠商所以在這裡要如何協助客運業與車廠設備配合這樣才能夠全面的加速進度那這個部分這一案我可以改成主決議了以上說明好 謝謝魯明爪召委接下來邀請黃建豪委員"},{"start":18827.628,"end":18849.992,"text":"好謝謝召委那在這個上下午有四個案子都是屬於凍結那當然凍結是希望你們把事情做好一點嘛那第一個當然還是一樣偽造車牌部分跟魯明哲委員一樣啊其實就是之前已經排了一些相關的審查然後我們這次我提了凍結5000萬希望說你們能夠盡快的來立法因為一直提說要提出相關修法那我們希望這個進度透過預算凍結的方式來督促說"},{"start":18850.452,"end":18852.234,"text":"委員會主管交通部主管交通部主管交通部"},{"start":18870.896,"end":18875.577,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":18888.421,"end":18902.948,"text":"現在很多的政策業務面來講應該都能夠電子化所以說有沒有必要還是要花這麼多錢去郵寄我覺得這是你們需要去檢討的如果法令的話法令可不可以修改以現在社會來講很多人反而寄給他這個困擾"},{"start":18903.968,"end":18929.195,"text":"因為他的住、他的居住地跟他的工作地或他的戶籍地可能都不一樣所以如果能夠透過電子的方式可能手機簡訊也好或是email或其他各種形式讓他能夠去去繳交費用或是通知他這個牌照稅啊或是計然稅等等的不一定要使用這個郵寄這我覺得說在電子化政府部分我希望在這個項目下你們能夠來增進一點然後還有一個是再來是提到公車的部分"},{"start":18930.333,"end":18931.234,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":18949.432,"end":18954.699,"text":"公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路公路"},{"start":18966.434,"end":18986.503,"text":"但是現階段正在就業的人大概有3000多人所以我想這是個非常懸殊的比例所以我們希望把這個人力缺口補上不然如果國道客運公車業者一直在減班在砍的話我想對於推動整個臺灣整個大中醫書是個很大的傷害啦那最後一個是六十案六十案的部分也是在電動車的補助上面這個凍結我是凍提10億5000萬"},{"start":18989.504,"end":19005.698,"text":"當然這個公路局來溝通這個數字可以在大家可以討論一下不一定要這麼多那我這個15000萬是原因原因這個原因是不是來自於台中市的退出這個營業業者電動車退出營業者的數量的數字到底補助多少錢是合理的好因為"},{"start":19007.803,"end":19027.445,"text":"電動巴士現階段它就是比柴油巴士來的貴但是我們政策上又希望業者能夠多採購電動巴士那正在政策有這樣的方向來講的話等於業者被迫他必須去買電動車那買不起的話他就乾脆倒閉不做了所以我想這對這個市區公車來講也是很大的傷害所以補助多少錢或是政策上要怎麼調整"},{"start":19028.246,"end":19030.468,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建"},{"start":19049.254,"end":19072.648,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員接下來邀請林俊憲委員林俊憲之後邀請徐富奎委員感謝主席各位同仁北京第一第五十案是公路和監理業務裡面的公路公共運輸所以這筆預算有53億主要是補助我們每一個縣市的各縣市的市區汽車客運業的一個補貼的那個補助"},{"start":19075.489,"end":19097.8,"text":"補助大概分幾個原則第一個就是你地方政府的財力分三、四、五級例如台南市就分配在第三級可能直轄市第二個就是上限金額上限補助上限每個縣市上限是兩億但是它裡面有一個規則我覺得很不合理就是它補助金額不能超過你前一年核定的金額"},{"start":19099.048,"end":19101.528,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":19126.773,"end":19142.979,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營"},{"start":19155.163,"end":19179.938,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金"},{"start":19181.786,"end":19184.188,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":19210.383,"end":19211.125,"text":"徐副魁委員發言"},{"start":19218.225,"end":19237.612,"text":"謝謝主席本期提出12到第15個案子共4個案子那12案是針對我們要達成2050年近年排放的目標公務局推動這個電動公車的政策但截至今年8月份我們目前的電動大客車的數量是1846輛距離這個我們今年底的這個計畫目標3400輛還有一個落差那也沒辦法滿足我們市場的需求"},{"start":19246.335,"end":19262.541,"text":"而且截至我們今年8月份我們購車的補助款4億1千多萬佔全營的執行率大概只有17%那執行率偏低那本省市要求我們交通部要檢討一下我們這個補助的一個目標跟執行的方式"},{"start":19263.361,"end":19280.066,"text":"十三案是針對我們這個下鄉考照的部分因為這個屏東縣服務院遼闊那因為我們現在目前推動的這個下鄉考照的政策還不夠落實所以造成這個鄉親的不便那另外針對我們這個監理站在深藏朋友考照的時候"},{"start":19280.766,"end":19281.206,"text":"第11公路法第42條準則"},{"start":19310.094,"end":19312.136,"text":"未來交通部應該積極確保未來運價調整,消費者意見納入參考,避免把運價轉嫁給消費者,造成消費頻率影響到外送產業。本席提議凍結5千萬"},{"start":19329.112,"end":19342.221,"text":"第15個案子是針對我們2050年一個淨零排碳一個路徑的規劃我們市售電動機車的比例到2030年要達到35%2035年要達到70%到2040年要達成100%新售機車電動化的目標因為目前依憑中間來講我們有33個鄉鎮但是只有"},{"start":19353.189,"end":19370.079,"text":"只有22個縣市有這個電動機車掛牌的一個據點那其中10個是位於屏東市那有很多的鄉鎮都沒有設這個相關的一個掛牌據點造成民眾的不便所以這部分本席也要求這個先凍結500萬那請公路局針對這個偏鄉的一個電動機車掛牌一個據點的計畫能夠予以改善以上"},{"start":19379.026,"end":19386.451,"text":"謝謝徐副委員那接下來邀請陳雪生委員發言那陳雪生委員發言之後請李坤澤委員那接續是何欣淳委員謝謝"},{"start":19387.871,"end":19409.078,"text":"主席我的案子是58到68案客運車輛電動化推動計畫還有一些業務費那麼馬祖大橋大概已經6年到7年了從可行性評估然後交通部也編列了一億五千多萬做綜合規劃"},{"start":19413.837,"end":19433.762,"text":"那麼一直到現在,也到國發會,國發會那邊也給他送到英國去做第三方的技術認證,也都同意了蔡英文總統的時候答應的賴清德總統當行政院長的時候,還快馬加鞭的把這個綜合計畫給他送出去"},{"start":19435.222,"end":19461.59,"text":"那麼已經六七年了那麼到現在沒有任何的回應我在交通委員會的質詢台上面大聲的幾乎每一次幾乎都提到馬祖大小所以我覺得效率非常的低落行或是不行起碼有個交代嘛不要吊在辦公室中活不活死不死讓我很難過了所以這一個計畫58到68"},{"start":19464.198,"end":19489.256,"text":"我主張三點一半二分之一一共是18.8億如果當然保留一點彈性如果交通部長沒辦法處理的話我們願意送政黨協商好不好主要就是馬祖大橋要給我一個回應好不好謝謝以上好謝謝陳雪生委員接下來邀請李崑澤委員發言"},{"start":19495.267,"end":19498.432,"text":"第43案公路公共運輸計畫編列預算達到53億元"},{"start":19504.266,"end":19505.947,"text":"計劃114年度新興計劃114年至117年計劃總經費200億元計劃目標、預計成效及過往相類似計劃辦理成效"},{"start":19528.671,"end":19555.532,"text":"第59案客運車輛電動化推動計劃編列預算37億。客運車輛電動化是一個重要的政策。但是以往各地方政府推動的速率不一。2030年是不是能達到全面汰換?其實尚未可知。"},{"start":19556.653,"end":19564.559,"text":"那依舊各地方政府推動的汰範來加強協助等一下也請一併說明以上好接下來請何欣淳委員好謝謝趙薇本席提出第26案還有後等一下再一一說明先講第26案26案其實在這個"},{"start":19581.952,"end":19592.357,"text":"科目是有關公路局監理業務管理總共預算數16億多我本人是提案要凍結3000萬為什麼呢?其實還是關係到我早上上午在關心的這個高齡駕駛的問題尤其針對75歲以上的高齡者這個換照的制度我們現在施行到現在是不是應該還要再重新的來檢討調整"},{"start":19610.845,"end":19631.783,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19632.203,"end":19651.975,"text":"護照實質效用及實質要求實質是否認知必須遵守交通法規及其體能、體力、身體健康及道路規則的法規制度變革後,他到底有沒有收到、認知到這樣的一個變革。"},{"start":19654.677,"end":19660.661,"text":"關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":19678.831,"end":19706.527,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19706.527,"end":19726.749,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19726.98,"end":19749.298,"text":"第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通部主管交通部主管交通部主管交通部"},{"start":19757.424,"end":19762.547,"text":"公路公共運輸計畫公路公共運輸計畫公路公共運輸計劃"},{"start":19771.992,"end":19792.549,"text":"最主要的是我們都關心公共運輸計畫補助給各地方政府以台中市來講對不起我必須要再補充說明台中市最近幾年常常發生公車的問題公車公共運輸裡面第一個是偏鄉路線"},{"start":19793.49,"end":19809.497,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19810.177,"end":19832.73,"text":"稍減班次、調整班次甚至拖班很多狀況也間接直接的影響到偏鄉路線的一個行駛公共運輸的問題因為我們中央有補助給地方政府相關的計劃預算所以我是希望能夠拙減一部分然後能夠來請交通部給予書面"},{"start":19836.732,"end":19858.08,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19858.64,"end":19883.598,"text":"綠色運輸落實以及人本交通平權等等的理念那也希望在我的書面報告裡面交通委員會給我的書面交通部給我的書面報告裡面希望也能夠提到那最後還有一個第三案是65案那也是在這個客運車輛的電動化的一個推動計畫裡面我是希望能夠"},{"start":19885.339,"end":19885.679,"text":"則以凍結而以。"},{"start":19903.685,"end":19908.728,"text":"公路局監理業務管理第31案主要是針對加強車牌防偽設計這個部分我們希望交通部要嚴謹一個更有效的辦法來減少假車牌的氾濫所以這一案本席是提凍結10%的預算請交通部提出書面報告後使得動之那第34案也是針對公路局監理業務"},{"start":19930.52,"end":19932.12,"text":"關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":19951.145,"end":19958.849,"text":"則提出提高外籍考照者參加駕訓班計劃的有效措施。本席提案凍結10%,請交通部提出書面報告後時的動之。第57案"},{"start":19967.914,"end":19989.453,"text":"公路局監理業務管理向下公路公共運輸計劃的獎補助費這個部分因為我們知道現在就是很多這個客運偏鄉地區的這個大巴士或者是客運路線一直在減少然後也減班所以對偏鄉的交通真的非常不便那我們基於這個交通平權我們希望就是"},{"start":19991.434,"end":20007.725,"text":"請交通部公路局提出有關幸福巴士轉型服務、鄉鄉有公車、偏鄉客運、客貨服務等短中長期的交通評選目標的具體內容。本席是提凍結預算10%,希望交通部提出書面報告後使得動之。"},{"start":20010.046,"end":20021.029,"text":"第67案公路局監理業務管理向下客運車輛電動化推動計劃本席提凍結10%預算。請交通部公路局研擬有關運具電動化政策的鼓勵措施以提升執行績效。請交通部提出書面報告後,使得動之。"},{"start":20033.811,"end":20037.994,"text":"第70案公路監理資料庫及基礎建設升級計劃"},{"start":20048.699,"end":20058.465,"text":"嚴明如何加強宣導並優化更新資訊採選服務及監理服務的UI設計,減少後續的紛爭,希望能提出具體檢討報告。本席提動解10%的動決案,希望交通部提出書面報告後的動質。若沒有其他委員要再提出爭取的部分,我們請交通部做一個統一的回覆。"},{"start":20076.03,"end":20104.855,"text":"是跟委員會報告我是不是就從那個大家大概的一個提案的一個順序做一個說明那從第12案開始大概就是這個徐副會委員有提到大概就是電8的電8的案子我想就是今年的掛牌大概接近1900那我們也核定了大概有2800多輛出去那當然因為他就是要掛牌大概就是他有一點時間的落差"},{"start":20106.015,"end":20130.981,"text":"整個就是說掛牌其實到我們大概年底到明年我想我們會追上整個的一個執行的一個進度那13案的話就是徐委員也是提到就是下鄉考照要加強服務這個我想我們一定會來做相關的一個加強那14案這個外送員的這個我們修運輸業的規則其實當初大概消基會的這個部分其實後來的幾次會議都有邀請他們"},{"start":20132.081,"end":20133.562,"text":"議員及外送員相關業者及工會"},{"start":20162.922,"end":20164.283,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":20178.396,"end":20178.796,"text":"委員委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":20205.171,"end":20207.012,"text":"附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":20232.426,"end":20235.928,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":20256.462,"end":20279.334,"text":"修法的部分的話就是我們已經在做這個研議了我想等一下再請司長那從我們跨部會的這個部分還包括數位部的這個整個就是網路上面的一些下架其實我們自己都有查跟委員報告因為9月10月的話行政院就是特別針對未編造車牌有開過兩次的一個專案會議把跨部會的這個責任都把它就是說要求所以"},{"start":20280.615,"end":20290.948,"text":"統計8月份我們的這個查緝是高峰達到261件可是90月之後的話因為各部會就是說這個通力合作9月下降到18610月下降到15111月下降到121件其實這個未編造車牌其實這一個也有一些相關的一個嚇阻作用"},{"start":20298.357,"end":20299.899,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":20317.08,"end":20317.621,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20335.558,"end":20361.602,"text":"二十八案林佩祥委員所提到的國道客運的這個跨縣市的這些班次的這個這個一定要足夠那我想這個部分的話其實我們都跟各地方政府做合作有不足的部分其實也都會比如說他有些是尖峰時間要做增加或是尖峰時間可能就是比如某些的這個站點要加班這個部分其實在尤其是像基隆桃園的部分其實都有做相關的一個要求"},{"start":20362.422,"end":20388.352,"text":"二十九案黃建豪委員所提到我們郵寄其實因為有一些部分因為他要有法定的效力所以所以他有法定郵寄郵寄的一些規定不過現在電子化政府一化其實我們很多有些通知能夠用這個一化通知其實就又就來通知就不會完全都是用郵寄的那在三十一案跟三十案這個核心委員陳村委員都是未變到車牌這我們都會來努力"},{"start":20389.372,"end":20390.892,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":20415.197,"end":20415.997,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":20431.624,"end":20454.801,"text":"沒有的話這個部分我想我們會再來跟西北地區的這個駕訓班來做相關的這個輔導跟讓他們能夠加入我們的機車的一個駕訓那33陳樹園也提到這個外籍人士的考照為什麼沒有來參加駕訓班這個部分我想我們會來再跟相關的這個地方的比如說這個主管外籍這個人士的一些事務來瞭解那也來輔導他們能夠來參加我們的駕訓班那36案就是說"},{"start":20460.366,"end":20482.35,"text":"禮俊俊委員和山西七岸林佩祥委員提到大型車的造勢大型車的造勢其實包括大客車其實我們現在有做相關的要求大貨車其實現在我們有相關的就是說有包括自主的一個要求自主管理的要求那另外其實有包括違規律、事故律不好的部分其實我們都會去業者這邊做督導對於就是說這個"},{"start":20487.611,"end":20506.188,"text":"大貨車駕駛違規,就是說比較高的部分我們會開專案的一個這個相關的一個架序嗎?黃教授委員也有提到微變造車牌,這我們也一起處理那公運的計畫,包括43案李昆哲委員、46號何宣淳委員跟50案林俊憲委員、50案林佩祥委員大概都是提到公運計畫,公運計畫其實已經分好幾期了"},{"start":20510.171,"end":20530.198,"text":"114年是新一期,每一期都是四年,那大概每一期的四年計畫大概都會有一些相關的成效所以提到就是說我們要把這個成效提出這個成效說明的一個報告那另外在偏鄉之間,譬如說偏鄉我們的幸福巴士的執行的成效以及偏鄉有些托班的部分,那有些部分會涉及到地方政府"},{"start":20531.418,"end":20555.786,"text":"委員提到移波路線的補助款這個部分跟委員報告是不是我們大概做個檢討因為其實相關的補助大概都會有一些就是說資源的分配這邊分配多的話有些的那個項目分配可能就少不過就是說委員有提到說是不是這個隔幾年應該做一些檢討這個是我們來檢討一下整個資源的一個分布預算的一個經費來提出一個檢討的一個報告"},{"start":20560.507,"end":20580.573,"text":"五十四案黃相偉有提到司機的缺口,這個部分其實我們包括已經調整了客運營運的成本,這個成本增加的話要讓業者要反映到薪資另外我們這幾年也辦招募駕駛人員,其實這幾年已經招募了三千多位,我想我們在114年會持續來辦理"},{"start":20582.193,"end":20585.638,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":20599.156,"end":20628.198,"text":"那這個58案陳學生委員所提到的馬祖大橋的這個部分因為院秘書長在112年8月有給我們一些這個相關的意見我想這個達成包括就是說這個北竿基產已經有相關的一個核定的計畫那可是他有一些調查我想這個部分公路局是受這個連江縣政府的委辦我們會來跟連江縣政府一起就行政院所提出來的相關的一個建議怎麼樣的回應我們來做一個研議那能夠盡速"},{"start":20629.059,"end":20658.235,"text":"做一個回覆那另外這個這個李分正委員有提到電巴的這個部分包括就是說未來怎麼樣來加強協助那這個電巴因為我們有相關的這個宣導期普及期的這個輔導期這個所以大概就是說因為現在的電巴其實本來只有兩家的車廠現在包括已經合併四家還有第五家也在處理所以電巴部分我想後面的話會走得更快速那電巴的這個部分包括"},{"start":20660.176,"end":20678.328,"text":"六十一岸盧明哲委員、六十五岸核心政府委員、六十七岸城村委員都有提到電巴的一個協助鼓勵目前的補助的部分的話其實交通部是補助670萬那還有一些加碼的部分那環境部的話其實是維運了有160萬那這個部分的話我想如果說有更多的業者進來的話這個選擇性多我想這個"},{"start":20681.51,"end":20706.152,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":20709.939,"end":20738.642,"text":"跟早晚還有個委員報告就是有委員關切到那個偽造號牌修法的部分齁那這個上次在專案會議有跟委會報告這個部裡面針對處罰條例的修正重點那這個草案已經送到這一個行政院那行政院上禮拜也召開過第一次審查會議那有些條文的部分我們再細部微調一下趕快送這一個那個行政院召開第二次這個審查會確認之後那就會趕快送這個立法院來做並案的一個審查以上大概做一個補充報告"},{"start":20743.149,"end":20761.153,"text":"委員都有充分的來徵詢表達意見,是不是我們就試著來處理,來變樣處理。這個部分經費算數蠻龐大的,下面科目也很多,委員的提案也很多,從12到70案,有凍結5000萬的,然後有要刪減2億的。"},{"start":20768.314,"end":20794.317,"text":"凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結二分之一凍結案、凍結"},{"start":20796.503,"end":20798.524,"text":"二十一你是同意改動解嗎?是不是?"},{"start":20827.41,"end":20834.717,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":20864.765,"end":20872.912,"text":"總輸118億118億跟委員報告118億都是所有的監理所佔他開門所有的監理業務他要下鄉服務他要做寄送"},{"start":20881.434,"end":20883.096,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":20897.17,"end":20911.697,"text":"一千萬啦,跟委員報告,那個副議會跟委員報告,副議會喔,沒錢,副議會都是付那個,那個,那個,出席費啊,對啊,他把單子給他刪了,他就沒辦法支,好,一千萬啦,一千萬我客戶自行調整可不可以"},{"start":20912.901,"end":20933.997,"text":"你如果把它改為做馬祖大橋的建設計畫我全部負責幫你恢復我努力努力那就是針對公路局監理業務管理我們就是三減一千萬然後凍結十分之一因為林委員要凍結不用凍啦"},{"start":20938.169,"end":20940.691,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":20958.104,"end":20959.985,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":20988.504,"end":21000.228,"text":"陳雪生的案子就是保留送院會協商然後在這裡補充宣告就是針對這一幕委員的提案之中有關17案、18案、19案、28案、30案、37案、39案、52案、61案、69案改組決議"},{"start":21008.271,"end":21012.934,"text":"提案委員同意改組決議提案委員同意改組決議提案委員同意改組決議提案委員同意改組決議"},{"start":21036.696,"end":21062.9,"text":"你們說明一下根委員報告因為就是它這個水電的這個電費的部分其實我們在這個今年年底我們要從那個高工局那邊要接4條以前就是我們的一些快速公路台78、台82、台84、台86這幾條快速公路因為那時候是請高工局幫我們管理所以今年年底要收回4條這個快速公路"},{"start":21063.34,"end":21091.682,"text":"那明年6月底前還要再收回4條台72、台74、台76、台88啊這個電齁電都是他整個這個快速公路的這個燈啊隧道的照明還有這個機電的維修齁啊因為是增加明年要增加8條快速公路的這個處理齁所以其實電費齁我們已經就是說盡量能夠能夠來節省齁也跟委員報告我們現在齁建立所站齁他現在怕省電齁他有時候"},{"start":21092.022,"end":21116.408,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21116.908,"end":21143.34,"text":"是有增加8條快速公路要接回來是不是不要給我們錢因為那個電真的是沒電沒辦法工作好 那就3.5百萬了好不好因為電費大家這個捷內神探鼓勵一下啦不要異議啦五百萬了那個林國聰你還要發言嗎那個主席我特別提醒一下第55案我們已經處理完了我知道你那55案我拜託你要做專案報告好不好"},{"start":21144.605,"end":21160.403,"text":"對阿那個要做專案報告那是補助地方阿我不給你刪了我也不給你動但是你要做一個專案報告因為你這個是補助地方嘛你總是要報告一下讓我們交通委員會都知道這個事情嘛"},{"start":21161.504,"end":21161.744,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":21188.814,"end":21207.807,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21208.775,"end":21232.441,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附�"},{"start":21238.443,"end":21240.544,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":21267.718,"end":21287.31,"text":"公路局的這個業務其實包括監理運輸公路工程所以像我們的監理運輸的部分其實就是包括汽車運輸業我們要委託就是說辦理就是說這個像比如說這個台鐵跟那個民航其實他們都有一個業者裡面的一個系統安全管理制度SMS"},{"start":21288.391,"end":21314.809,"text":"所以我們雖然運輸業的這個規模比較小可是我們也希望就是說你自己運輸業本身的這個系統安全管理制度要建立所以這個部分我們大概就是希望做一個研究案也來輔導各運輸業者要來建立另外就是說像這個永續提升人行安全計畫就是各縣市政府提那個路口的改善路口改善他比如說路口要做什麼樣的這個退縮、潮化"},{"start":21315.469,"end":21340.3,"text":"候製標誌因為那個部分要做一些專案管理的一個審查不然的話他們有時候做的成效不好所以大概這個部分也會做那另外就是說比如說這個我們省道公路全國有5000多公里10年要做一次清查這一次今年也會特別再做一個這個清查所以大概有比往年增加一點點那委員是不是不要刪那麼多讓我們就是說可以"},{"start":21340.64,"end":21340.76,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":21356.32,"end":21384.695,"text":"委辦費以今年我們有一個生活圈的那個委辦費就是說確實只執行一半只是說生活圈那時候因為我們在年年中的時候執行一半的原因是因為今年的下半年我們的這個地震跟颱風好啦你不要再講下去我怕待會路人又站起來砍了那個我們有移波到我們有移緩季期那個我們移緩季期這樣的啦這個35百萬好不好就真的不要耽誤大家的時間"},{"start":21387.219,"end":21392.102,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":21416.428,"end":21439.31,"text":"第三目公路建設及改善計畫71-96案我們是不是請提案委員來做徵詢還是說完全不用我們就直接請林國成委員本期提案是我們到底第幾案"},{"start":21441.44,"end":21469.483,"text":"七十一到九十六我是七十五案還有九十五案還有九十五案這個部分我是特別也就是我們改善道路養護這個部分我要特別部長在這裡還有局長也在這裡我必須要提出來我們同事不要製造混亂"},{"start":21471.294,"end":21483.62,"text":"哪一個委員爭取的東西請你們不要把所有責任移到別的委員去這個是不好的這個叫做壞習慣"},{"start":21486.332,"end":21509.163,"text":"給你們錢去造橋鋪路我們理當應該要支持但是你不要製造我們同事之間明明就是林佩祥爭取的你就要告訴說這是林國成你何必呢這種東西做事情是為老百姓而做事所以為什麼我會針對你這個有意見"},{"start":21511.664,"end":21512.785,"text":"謠言不盡,立法院不盡。"},{"start":21522.79,"end":21546.561,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21547.422,"end":21572.463,"text":"稍微小問題但是會製造整個徵取預算是每一個立法委員應該做的可是你們一定要去注意這些你們要信念別人要邊信念經會先要自己要信念你們自己如何去面對尤其是交通委員徵取的東西你就告訴你就告訴說這個是哪一個委員他是別的委員會"},{"start":21573.924,"end":21588.056,"text":"審預算的時候他有幫我有幫我幫你嗎所以這些東西你們要約束你們的人當然對於預算我想基本上我是第75案我是建議要3減5000萬還有95案的部分我是建議3減100萬至於這些看局長部長有什麼看法"},{"start":21606.113,"end":21607.834,"text":"黃建豪委員黃建豪委員黃建豪委員"},{"start":21631.684,"end":21655.667,"text":"一般一邊施工但同時就是因為你施工所以沒有人行沒有地方可以走所以有人走到快車道上然後被車這個撞死了這個狀況發生所以我們希望說未來這部分在要求地方政府的時候不管合約或廠商等等都能夠確實的執行所以我們是提凍結不是提刪除是凍結希望你們能夠去執行那包含說還有這個之前之前有提到人行道上的這種電箱問題啊就是說"},{"start":21658.1,"end":21683.681,"text":"我們希望說既然要推這個人本交通我們把這個上位的原則來拉上來拉高一點那我們交通部這邊或是在做工程這邊不要只有單純做工程而已還包含說道路上各種障礙一樣把它整併在所謂的這個整個更新計劃裡面而不是把行程到鋪完之後就沒有我的事而是說既然我要鋪那我就把所有的周邊的所有障礙一次把它排除掉這樣這個錢花去調一要不然"},{"start":21685.683,"end":21700.98,"text":"人民道是新的只有電箱或其他障礙物一樣在上面是舊的那我想這個跟預算本身的的精神是背道而馳的所以這是我們提出的一個凍結案也是希望你們能去確實的執行以上好那李崑澤也有沒有要說明"},{"start":21704.127,"end":21708.348,"text":"您提案的部分有沒有要再徵詢的?您提的74案、80、81的部分"},{"start":21733.603,"end":21755.36,"text":"今天在這邊我還是重申一次部長還是要督促各局處在相關委員提案出來就要跟委員來溝通對話說明以前交通委員會不管是國民黨的行政院長時代或是民進黨審預算很少超過中午的"},{"start":21757.041,"end":21777.246,"text":"到現在還在這邊討論什麼這個要動多少什麼什麼好像在菜市場喊價一樣以前都已經講清楚了也會尊重委員的意見該刪多少就刪多少該凍結多少都已經都講好了那個速度也很好以前部長也很少在審查預算來"},{"start":21778.609,"end":21808.609,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":21809.55,"end":21810.19,"text":"公路系統維護5千公里"},{"start":21830.521,"end":21858.779,"text":"那相關的各縣市政府重要的比較偏鄉的經過的省道相關的維護或是相關新的這種公路的興建這個經費都在各地縣市政府是作為交通的一個重要的這樣的一個發展的基礎這個請大家多多三思以上好謝謝那接下來邀請徐富奎委員之後再請魯明哲召委"},{"start":21859.144,"end":21882.946,"text":"好謝謝主席本席提出71案跟第76案那71案的部分我想在委員會我想我們很多委員都有提到特別提到對這個所謂編撥的一個災害的預防的部分那我們後續也是要求我們的交通部針對這個監測的一個廣度跟深度的一個防範能夠做一個比較有效的SOP的一個"},{"start":21883.507,"end":21903.865,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21904.005,"end":21906.628,"text":"則第76案,屏東縣總共有1187座橋樑,因過去檢測及維修費用由縣市政府負擔,一年約6、7千萬元對屏東縣政府形成財政負擔。"},{"start":21921.261,"end":21950.3,"text":"後續我們也是要求這個交通部因為這個畢竟這個橋樑的安全是很重要尤其我們超過40年以上的老舊橋樑有大概有50座了那後續如果針對這部分是不是請交通部可以來協助這個補助經費讓縣政府來經營這個橋樑跟檢測的業務維護這個橋樑的安全那這案子本席提案凍結500萬那請公路局提出相關的計畫來說明謝謝好謝謝許副委員接下來邀請魯明哲召委"},{"start":21952.921,"end":21972.775,"text":"九十六案公路局說明過去台電有補助50%現在沒有補助你勢必自己要編組所以我這個部分改組決議當然第一個希望你們能夠節能審探之外我們上次在交委會執行的時候特別部長也覺得還不錯就是路口有斑馬線的"},{"start":21973.916,"end":21995.589,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21995.799,"end":22004.685,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建公路基金-國道公路基金-國道公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金公路基金"},{"start":22022.518,"end":22031.263,"text":"以開發新的路線不定委託研究真的要去年是編了950萬專案管理今年要編1750萬"},{"start":22033.843,"end":22060.759,"text":"虽然刚刚比起来你几亿几百亿的钱数不多啊不因为现在到底这个之前推的去年编的9亿实体的路线如何那113年的预算执行率又不佳所以我想这个案子啊因为最主要是你的执行率跟研究据点需要这么多钱我是不太认同啊所以我这边简列800万以上说明"},{"start":22061.38,"end":22088.456,"text":"好,謝謝魯明哲教委,那我們現在就請交通部這邊來做一個說明,謝謝是,有關這一個71案徐副國委員所提到的這個邊坡的這個部分其實公路局有做相關的一個分級然後不同的這個災害的話其實都有相關的一個這個監測的計畫那我們也有這個整個自我檢討有一些精進的計畫我想我們會提出整個一個書面的一個報告"},{"start":22090.197,"end":22116.405,"text":"那另外就是說這一個76案也是徐貴委員有提到就是說這一個屏東縣的橋樑檢測跟委員報告就是橋樑檢測的費用其實他沒有很多那其實大部分就是說其實在氣燃費分配給各縣市政府的這個養護費用上面其實各縣市政府能夠來自己來處理而反而是我們要求他們一定要百分之百做檢測"},{"start":22117.586,"end":22136.062,"text":"檢測完之後如果說要做修理的話那個錢才花得多修理的錢花得多如果說有些部分包括中央裡面包括這個交通部公路局或內政部國都署其實會給他協助所以我想這個部分的話其實我們跟地方政府在這方面的這個合作關係其實都是這個非常好的"},{"start":22136.963,"end":22141.667,"text":"另外林國成委員所提到的各地區公務段,對於委員的建議案,屬於哪個委員建議的,我一定會做相關的要求。"},{"start":22154.336,"end":22162.566,"text":"另外86案魯明哲委員提到的自行車升級是第二期計劃從以前主線跟分支線後來發現台灣各區域有一些斷鏈"},{"start":22173.077,"end":22188.651,"text":"斷鏈以後大概就是說怎麼樣去把它就是說斷鏈比如說是要做專屬的道路還是說比如說在其他的省縣道在外掛還是要怎麼樣因為它有些也涉及到用地的一個取得那執行比較慢其實大概就是因為這個大部分都是補助地方政府"},{"start":22188.991,"end":22190.432,"text":"斷鏈補助執行車道補助執行車道補助執行車道補助執行車道補助執行車道補助"},{"start":22212.331,"end":22240.616,"text":"黃教委員有提到就是8889也就是說我們永續提升人行安全這個地方這個其實大概地方政府在做的時候確實因為在施工的時候其實施工的焦為因為你把人行道拆了以後其實這個行人他可能就是靠邊你要做交通追的處理那施工的焦為其實一定要做好這個部分我想我們未來在這個補助地方政府的時候其實在整個地方的施工的這個部分包括會同地方的"},{"start":22240.956,"end":22241.096,"text":"大翁匯報"},{"start":22262.937,"end":22288.395,"text":"這個地方在協調的時候其實他們當初有些部分我的了解其實就是他那個電箱有些地方就是下地或者是他要找地方可能沒地方擺不過這個其實在各地方政府就是說在做人行的這個安全的這一個的話其實這個是在檢核上面是一定要檢核的不會是不處理有可能就是在處理上面有可能他就是台電跟中華電信有可能確實還是找不到地方去擺"},{"start":22288.755,"end":22289.096,"text":"人行道改善"},{"start":22303.062,"end":22305.724,"text":"公路建設及改善計劃預算執行事實上不是補助地方去執行就是做在地方"},{"start":22320.759,"end":22336.254,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":22336.254,"end":22355.162,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":22355.462,"end":22359.964,"text":"第18、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建第18、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建"},{"start":22376.914,"end":22381.598,"text":"我們有跟徐志杰委員就是整個說這個報告了對 溝通了委員是說就是改動500萬就是本來是要凍結3000萬的那我們就好 我們就不理處理啦好"},{"start":22408.281,"end":22408.881,"text":"主決議98案第99案"},{"start":22438.28,"end":22459.644,"text":"對,98案的話就是這邊還有一個就是4個月改一個月就是有修正兩個位置那邱委員有同意有有他已經簽名了一個月內提出書面報告第99案99案的話就是這個有做文字修正包括把市府刪掉還有就是這邊重新提檢把修正委辦理邊坡監測計畫那委員也已經簽名了"},{"start":22462.827,"end":22477.903,"text":"好,那就是照修正辦理好,第一百案一百案的話就是114年度每季改成三個月那委員也簽名了好,就是改為三個月內提書面報告好,謝謝第一百零一案一百零一案就是三個月改一個月啊委員也簽名了"},{"start":22482.054,"end":22496.204,"text":"102案是在交通部這邊是增加一個公路局然後一個月改三個月那委員也簽名了改三個月內提出書面報告103案104案105案106案106案就是在專案報告改成書面報告"},{"start":22506.371,"end":22533.008,"text":"那這個委員也簽名了好改書面報告107案-遵照辦理好108案-遵照辦理109案109案是109案的話文字做相關的修正就是在第二段的倒數第三案這邊有加一個轄管省道公路系統橋樑然後將專案報告改成書面報告那這個部分的話這個委員也簽名了"},{"start":22533.462,"end":22555.973,"text":"好,那就是同意修正文字後辦理了。好,再來110案。好,111案。111案的話就是專案報告改成書面報告,那委員也簽名了。好,改書面報告。好,112案。112案的話這邊是有跟委員報告就是兩個月內改成三個月,然後專案報告改成書面報告。"},{"start":22556.793,"end":22558.275,"text":"三個月內提出書面報告。"},{"start":22572.57,"end":22574.431,"text":"113專案報告改書面報告委員簽名114專案報告改書面報告委員簽名116遵照辦理"},{"start":22591.141,"end":22591.221,"text":"117、118、119、120將1個月改3個月"},{"start":22612.87,"end":22633.343,"text":"一、二、三、一、二、四、一、二、五一、二、五的話是在就是最後一行就是綜合規劃是改成可行性評估然後報交通部並同臺南市政府積極溝通那這個部分委員也簽名了好就是照文字修正後辦理好"},{"start":22636.351,"end":22656.004,"text":"好,那有關交通部公路局及所屬114年度單位預算那個委員的提案審查完均。接下來我們處理國道公路建設管理基金。好,那我們先休息五分鐘好了,那讓我們的這個官員換場一下。"},{"start":22662.711,"end":22667.338,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建"},{"start":22677.954,"end":22682.3,"text":"所以審查到?我認為只審得到製通,只審到資安,應該審不到素材"},{"start":22695.836,"end":22700.099,"text":"啊...我覺得我們都已經損了理性了啦..."},{"start":22725.276,"end":22737.406,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":22752.458,"end":22753.038,"text":"市長 市長 市長市長"},{"start":22780.377,"end":22800.111,"text":"沒有補助了,我以為你剛才有講公路局沒有補助,我沒意識到有補助。對,那可能要送這個市長協商,其他的,他特意要求我要送市長協商,其他我可能也要送。沒有吧?沒有吧?他今天早上我跟我講就這麼說。喔真的嗎?他今天早上,今天早上我就,八點鐘的時候我就說要送市長協商,我就好啊,我就做這個。"},{"start":22807.376,"end":22808.497,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":22837.116,"end":22840.218,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":22871.63,"end":22896.544,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":22908.677,"end":22909.017,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22914.039,"end":22916.601,"text":"國道公路建管理基金-國道公路建管理基金"},{"start":22931.178,"end":22931.318,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22948.4,"end":22973.874,"text":"這樣我就把我的案子同意林俊憲的3.2千萬就好了林俊憲不在嘛,那我們就有跟林委員溝通過了那我們建議是說免山免棟啦因為這裡面來講我們的7億1千多萬幾乎都是我們隧道的照明還有交控的一個單位我知道那就3、5百萬跟公路總局一樣就不要再講下一案了"},{"start":22974.921,"end":22977.162,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22996.451,"end":23023.603,"text":"不好意思,我主要是第五案的主題案人,但是事實上主題案人其實是許新穎委員,那他是針對這個隔音牆,因為這個隔音牆好像有的時候不是用平均的聲音來去測的,是說如果忽然之間,忽然很大聲的時候,這個隔音牆設備還是有需要的。然後我也認同,尤其在那個西紅市中山區在新橫濱那邊其實已經有議員跟我反映過,雖然不同黨,但是跟我反映過是那邊也需要裝隔音牆,所以說這方面來講我還是維持原意凍結3000萬的,不過"},{"start":23026.064,"end":23030.607,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":23047.125,"end":23068.848,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23069.994,"end":23092.476,"text":"好謝謝林國雄委員那這個林俊賢委員的提案你有跟他溝通?有有有跟他溝通過是他同意怎麼樣?是同意我們去併案去處理同意併案處理是好那這樣子的話我們就來進行處理了那剛剛我們林沛翔有提到說徐信委員要提政黨協商"},{"start":23095.382,"end":23116.215,"text":"所以我們就照徐新穎委員的建議的部分來凍結3000萬的方式來處理好不好同意凍結就好了就不用提就照他的提案這樣好那這樣子我們就3到7案就是併案處理我們就是凍結應該是指第5案的49620萬凍結3000萬吧是是好凍結3000萬"},{"start":23122.815,"end":23140.704,"text":"提書面報告後,有關勞務成本、文物成本、服務費用、修理、保養及保固費、土地改良物、修屋、護費、道路維護、作業、交通設施改善工程,細目凍結三千萬。將林國成委員的案子"},{"start":23149.198,"end":23176.459,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附�"},{"start":23178.297,"end":23200.346,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":23206.153,"end":23206.515,"text":"提案委員提問"},{"start":23212.13,"end":23238.314,"text":"好謝謝主席那針對第九案我有提案凍結10%啦希望能夠提出專案報告那其實那個情況我們大概都知道啦因為這麼多年來你們對於這個易塞車路段的一個輸運改善優化相關的一個交通資訊啦其實我們確實也有看到這些資訊啦但是實際的狀況我們覺得改變的非常非常少"},{"start":23238.934,"end":23262.896,"text":"所以他是用鼓烈性質想方設法能不能像這個擁設的路段在我們編預算的前提這個方法你拿到預算嘛那希望能夠真正做到改善那這樣好不好專案報告不堅持啦書面報告可以啦待會看整體怎麼凍結以上好那個林國成委員"},{"start":23265.29,"end":23265.31,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":23295.657,"end":23297.518,"text":"2016年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":23315.094,"end":23315.554,"text":"主席"},{"start":23344.236,"end":23367.904,"text":"行政院只給我們收費員的員額,沒有給我們工程的人力,所以這裡面很多都是依賴的外包,包括我們交通中心也都是外包的人員來處理。所以這裡面來講說確實是有它的外包費用,那外包費用它增加的部分也是都是在薪資的部分。另外一個就是我們駕駛退休以後也預缺不能補,所以也是外包的一個處理。"},{"start":23368.544,"end":23370.185,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":23401.578,"end":23421.425,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":23421.825,"end":23426.647,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建"},{"start":23445.213,"end":23450.638,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":23471.476,"end":23497.79,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23497.89,"end":23499.872,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":23520.121,"end":23547.703,"text":"委員已經訂到剛剛那邊去了,你剛剛講社群的部分是在這裡。沒有,那這個不一樣喔。前面那個沒有社群的那個案子。社群的那個臉書的部分是在這裡。好啦,三個一百萬啦,好不好。三個一百萬啦,還是很少的啦,好不好。好,那我們委員應該是小三啦,那我們就同意啦,好不好。就是那我們就來做一個處理啦,因為這邊提案的委員"},{"start":23548.883,"end":23554.745,"text":"第18至22項管理及總務費用逐山一百萬科目自行調整接下來處理第23至24項業務外費用預算是21億2968萬元提案委員有沒有要做徵詢的?徐富奎委員"},{"start":23575.932,"end":23591.986,"text":"謝謝主席本席提出第23案主要是針對我們這個每逢假期或是連假的時候這個我們的高速公路這個擁捨的情形相當嚴重那根據高工局的統計像今年來講上半年"},{"start":23592.846,"end":23610.923,"text":"平日就有75個用色路段春節期間更是高達155個所以本席也要求我們交通部應該針對這樣一個明確的一個交通資訊的部分要提醒用路人避開尖峰路段的一個改善措施應該更要強化"},{"start":23611.323,"end":23627.101,"text":"那尤其針對這樣一個交通疏導跟一個管制的措施更應該具體讓鄉親能夠了解所以本期提出凍結一千萬請交通部提出一個書面報告時的動之以上說明 謝謝徐副魁委員李昆澤委員"},{"start":23628.809,"end":23645.869,"text":"我簡單提交一下,這個是比較特別的一個項目回收票,很多年輕人不知道回收票長什麼樣子預算兵力150萬元就是用於回溯票的回收之用"},{"start":23646.65,"end":23673.228,"text":"那現在這種回收日益減少了其實也難以增加這種回收數局長你們簡單說明一下現在回收對於這個2024年來說你們回收了多少今年現在將近120萬左右今年到目前將近120萬整年啦今年啦回收票也收到"},{"start":23675.12,"end":23690.2,"text":"一百一十幾件嗎?一百一十萬那你們明年是變一百五十萬那其實它有一個曲線嘛一直曲線下來嘛那我建議是三減二十萬應該可以吧"},{"start":23691.158,"end":23691.678,"text":"徐副委員"},{"start":23712.908,"end":23722.815,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":23737.265,"end":23756.316,"text":"固定資產建設改良擴充預算數是346億3907萬9千元好那我們請提案委員是不是做徵詢那請李坤澤委員好我們來看114年度我們相關固定資產建設的改良擴充其實這個預算編列了346億元他其實比113年度的預算增加了164億元"},{"start":23766.921,"end":23788.746,"text":"其實我們看到相關工程的推動如果是能如期如止完成這是全民大家所想要看到的但是我們就碰到很嚴重的問題就是說近期國內的民間投資與公共工程建設大幅增加所以原建市場其實是飽和的"},{"start":23789.867,"end":23800.219,"text":"各營造工程競組技術人力、機具、物料、民間投資、公共工程"},{"start":23802.574,"end":23824,"text":"那這種我看就會影響到廠商參與公共工程建設的投標意願那國內有很多公共工程都受到影響我想這兩年來我們一直都在討論這個議題那造成我們很多公共工程"},{"start":23825.06,"end":23826.06,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":23846.886,"end":23863.131,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23864.332,"end":23875.537,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":23891.823,"end":23891.843,"text":"委員會議長"},{"start":23911.596,"end":23931.34,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23931.34,"end":23958.507,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23961.358,"end":23979.609,"text":"提案委員都有詢問的,那我們是不是請交通部這邊來做說明是,來跟委員報告有關我們這一項的一個計畫確實是經費其實比去年多了160幾億所以它經費是有大增那確實是誠如李委員剛剛所提的"},{"start":23980.089,"end":23980.309,"text":"國道公路建"},{"start":23997.142,"end":23997.462,"text":"耐震補強規範"},{"start":24024.615,"end":24040.868,"text":"但是現在已經規範到2019了所以我們就按照那些規範的那個來檢討那個橋樑的有錢秩序來做所以橋樑的部分都是以符合至少要符合到2009年的以上的版本那2019年的那個剛修的部分也應該都沒有問題"},{"start":24041.508,"end":24042.589,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":24057.526,"end":24070.321,"text":"委員剛剛有提到楊梅頭份段的一個拓寬目前在辦用地說明會已經兩梯次的24場的地方說明會都已經開完了那我們會陸續趕快來整理之後來辦理用地徵收"},{"start":24072.003,"end":24097.895,"text":"公聽會的部分用地的部分公聽會已經辦完了那我們要後續盡快來辦理用地徵收那辦理花包的一個作業那委員所關心的東豐南巷部分目前我們在辦那個可新民屋當中明年會有好消息啊就是說我們會把那個整個計畫會抱怨這個部分來跟委員先做一個報告是不是容許我們就是30億就是刪減然後不要凍結不要凍結那我們到時候還是"},{"start":24099.659,"end":24107.044,"text":"我們就來做一個處理,就是針對固定資產建設改良擴充,我們就刪減10億元,然後就不予凍結,然後針對我們魯昭維關心的部分,我們請這個公路局這邊要提書面報告,好不好?好,謝謝"},{"start":24125.663,"end":24127.987,"text":"第三十案 媒體政策及業務宣導費"},{"start":24141.969,"end":24161.56,"text":"沒有的話我們就請公路局做說明好了我這邊報告就是說我們這個案子我們做工程的部分像我有一百八十三個交通道每一個交通道至少有四支交通道他如果在施工的時候都是半夜他就要封路來做施工那這個情形之下我們就要去做宣導過去我們都是直接在工程管理會裡面支"},{"start":24162.08,"end":24179.177,"text":"目前來講,主席總書要求我們說你只要有宣導的這些東西你就要單獨名列出來他的預算所以我們五個分局每個分局編50萬的那個宣導費用那都是在工程管理費用向下以上的報告我看沒有意見啦因為只剩骨頭250萬"},{"start":24184.335,"end":24186.876,"text":"三十一案遵照辦理"},{"start":24208.942,"end":24220.211,"text":"三十二案-遵照辦理三十三-遵照辦理三十四-遵照辦理三十五-遵照辦理三十六-遵照辦理三十七-遵照辦理"},{"start":24231.86,"end":24235.962,"text":"第39案-遵照辦理第40案-遵照辦理第41案-遵照辦理第42案-遵照辦理第42案-遵照辦理"},{"start":24254.482,"end":24279.916,"text":"好那個魯昭偉同意改書面報告好43案遵照辦理44案遵照辦理45案遵照辦理45案是那個林國城委員的他一直關心說那個待遇的部分啊那我們會提書面報告提書面報告那個林國城委員是可以啊這是我們改書面報告我們會來處理啦"},{"start":24282.008,"end":24292.411,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金"},{"start":24313.317,"end":24315.639,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":24340.612,"end":24341.372,"text":"處理署發布資安署預算案休息5分鐘"},{"start":24367.568,"end":24393.281,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預"},{"start":24397.543,"end":24398.967,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":24409.047,"end":24411.028,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":24432.952,"end":24434.913,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":24452.424,"end":24462.854,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":24476.992,"end":24481.196,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建"},{"start":24585.56,"end":24611.071,"text":"好,那我們現在繼續開會那我在這邊先補充介紹速發部列席人員首先是我們部長黃燕蘭部長謝謝還有我們主計處吳俊鈺處長謝謝還有我們數位產業署的代理署長林俊秀署長謝謝還有我們資通安全署謝翠娟署長謝謝"},{"start":24612.892,"end":24613.873,"text":"行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員黃子涵專委基金預算處科長李正道"},{"start":24650.941,"end":24659.271,"text":"提案委員 林國成第一幕 一般行政"},{"start":24665.129,"end":24688.638,"text":"好謝謝因為這個因為上一次我已經執行過了哈已經執行過那這個部分啊我是比較建議啊像這類的東西應該是還是要在整個年度希望要要要把它編組了所以這個部分啊哈也就是人員跟人是會這個部分啊"},{"start":24689.358,"end":24711.518,"text":"我還是建議把它編組,但是我還是建議凍結一下才知道他們有沒有在做。以上。好,那這個第一幕的部分,如果沒有其他委員有意見的話,我們就是來請那個訴發部自案書這邊先做一個說明好了。"},{"start":24713.148,"end":24713.548,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24735.683,"end":24757.913,"text":"有各種訓練員工跟轉職系的方式所以非常謝謝委員那我們願意寫一份報告給委員瞭解好那凍結可以嗎因為你要寫書面不要書面報告就是凍結凍結然後書面報告後就可以凍資啦凍一千萬"},{"start":24761.328,"end":24764.676,"text":"但是,欸,洞傑...對,好,那..."},{"start":24769.163,"end":24769.344,"text":"第二幕資通安全業務"},{"start":24794.085,"end":24799.947,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":24816.425,"end":24843.984,"text":"好那這部分我們是不是有提案的委員要不要來徵詢我們林國成委員這裡的部分我是主張要刪兩億因為這裡手邊的預算手邊的預算我是認為在這個部分是一定要去刪因為我看那裡面編的預算是蠻浮邊的這個是以上我個人的看法"},{"start":24845.438,"end":24846.319,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24872.737,"end":24883.246,"text":"議員議員提的案子說我們在好幾個地方你有看到那個相關的會議那我先快速的跟您報告一下我們這些會議"},{"start":24884.167,"end":24892.633,"text":"為什麼會編會議費?就是會議的審查費第一個我們必須要開自動安全匯報然後我們也有跟各個部會分享的NISEC的會議然後我們要跟國際分享的那個資安探索會議另外因為我們危害國家資通訊產品未來可能必須要審查所以有審議的會議那我們也有補助給地方政府所以地方政府的每個計畫都要審查那個也會有20場"},{"start":24913.029,"end":24941.254,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24942.057,"end":24947.199,"text":"三十場所以跟委員報告其實我們沒有重複編列拜託請委員支持"},{"start":24951.991,"end":24959.656,"text":"提案委員邱若驊委員本案是新設計劃,相關的成效皆會維持,有浮邊之餘率,希望能做滾動式修正,要求凍結20%,也要求資安署提出成效報告。"},{"start":24984.087,"end":25006.544,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25007.845,"end":25034.085,"text":"感謝主席那本席第28案是關於電子簽章法三讀過後速發部推行智慧化的政府電子簽章在政府部門我看那個部長好像還有點沒有wake up現在第二幕報告主席我"},{"start":25036.541,"end":25064.439,"text":"報告主席,我這邊先整理一下好不好,抱歉。第三十案還有第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十案跟第三十"},{"start":25065.699,"end":25068.101,"text":"議員主席主席"},{"start":25082.551,"end":25108.097,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25108.982,"end":25109.642,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25136.647,"end":25154.65,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":25162.755,"end":25166.521,"text":"因明年就是因為自動安修法可能會過"},{"start":25169.622,"end":25178.667,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":25198.479,"end":25199.759,"text":"處理第15至31案處理15至21有關綜合規劃管理的部分"},{"start":25228.775,"end":25232.538,"text":"我主要是針對22案、27案跟28案、3案。22案主要是針對的是所謂的違辦費那這邊綜合規劃其實老實說我會覺得是說這個沒有到違辦的成效其實不是很好"},{"start":25257.756,"end":25261.68,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路建"},{"start":25274.831,"end":25297.644,"text":"那個時候那個部長也在嘛,我是說這個這個E-mail防治系統跟各方面的系統是不是真的需要那麼多而且這方面這方面所謂的這個防詐各方面的這些這些費用我們慌不啷噹的就一次就直接編了將近一億兩千萬那我會覺得是說這個上面來講我們需要一個專題報告然後到那我們知道說到底是這個錢是怎麼用的"},{"start":25298.564,"end":25327.399,"text":"畢竟來講一億兩千萬但是我們也知道這資安系統的攻擊是一直不停的過來的所以我在這邊願意提議凍結百分之五十而且要提出六個月之內提出專案報告另外一方面來講也同樣的也是這個二十八案其實也是一樣中和國道管理上面來講是沒有說要打造堅韌安全可信賴的智慧國家政策但是當我們知道說這次那個詐騙的時候詐騙的實際上是目前相對猖獗的"},{"start":25327.739,"end":25327.759,"text":"虛擬貨幣詐騙53億元"},{"start":25341.839,"end":25360.701,"text":"好謝謝林佩祥委員那葛如君委員好謝謝主席那本席這邊關注第30案是關於整體政府的資通安全防禦的強化那根據抒發部提供的資料113年度截至9月份為止"},{"start":25361.482,"end":25383.735,"text":"之安事件的通報件數高達1329件是108年以來史上最高比108年的通報數708件成長87%那其實令本席最擔憂的是三級之安事件的通報數本來在過去的幾年是有控制的"},{"start":25384.936,"end":25393.302,"text":"從108年的33件那111年稍微提起來到64件112年63件但是113年只統計到8月就有157件這個很可能是200%、300%甚至是400的暴增"},{"start":25404.43,"end":25421.588,"text":"這是一個非常需要當心的警訊因為在往上一集我相信部長應該很清楚市級資安事件就是動搖國本資安署往往可能會用一句就是說鼓勵各部會進行資安通報或者查無不法"},{"start":25422.068,"end":25437.679,"text":"或者沒有資安的問題等等其實我們真的是希望應該要好好的來檢討跟協作政府部門的資安防護到底有什麼根本的問題不然只到8月份就有231件的三級資安事件"},{"start":25439.58,"end":25458.845,"text":"那發生事急事案事件包括公務機密、敏感資訊或涉及關鍵基礎設施違運之核心業務資訊遭嚴重洩漏或國家機密遭洩漏可能是時間早晚的問題或甚至已經發生我們可能沒有發現喔因為我在非常多次的質詢的時候跟這個速發部質詢我們都問了"},{"start":25462.346,"end":25490.52,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25490.66,"end":25490.78,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":25521.618,"end":25537.807,"text":"好我這邊提了有三個案子那第一個案子是第16案16案的部分主要是針對於我們在113年其實上連續好幾年從我們數位部成立之後"},{"start":25538.627,"end":25541.409,"text":"國安部資訊外宣資訊外宣資訊外宣資訊外宣資訊外宣資訊外宣"},{"start":25561.22,"end":25582.568,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25582.668,"end":25606.679,"text":"委辦費 委辦費其實我們通常都比較有意見委辦費有它的必要性但是你委辦費比去年增加了一倍多那問題是我們也是希望你們內部要補人嘛補齊而且我想署長也好部長也說補到的人才都是有限定的都有專業的都有能力的"},{"start":25607.039,"end":25630.265,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25631.61,"end":25642.393,"text":"政府資通安全防護計畫的補助對國內團體的補助,是補助治安院嗎?全部的錢都他的嗎?全部治安院的院長有來嗎?沒來,就是準備領錢沒事,他審預算是不受監督的啊?去年用的錢問責要講一下吧,治安院今天有人來嗎?"},{"start":25659.147,"end":25659.307,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25670.236,"end":25672.497,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25698.809,"end":25723.68,"text":"委員長,問不清楚,那這個要補助款的話,我們就是保留碼、協商碼,就這樣。林國成委員剛剛有先舉手,你要先再問嗎?那再請那個葛國均委員,謝謝。好,那個本期有15案、22案、23案、25案,基本上我都是主張三預算的。但是在這裡我特別提醒署長跟部長,當初你們來收名的時候,有些"},{"start":25724.48,"end":25751.834,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25752.214,"end":25777.16,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基"},{"start":25779.321,"end":25780.261,"text":"一千萬左右。"},{"start":25796.22,"end":25816.206,"text":"好那謝謝林國成委員接下來邀請葛如君委員謝謝主席我這邊補充一下齁那我本席這邊第30案齁我想也是資安這邊有關的議題但是我想資安署沒有來齁我覺得這樣子啊不我說資安院沒有來啦齁那我想這個對資安的這個重視的程度會讓人非常憂心啦齁"},{"start":25816.872,"end":25821.937,"text":"公務加上前瞻也只有12.5億本來本席是說不刪減予以凍結但是我想希望能夠待會的說明能夠有點誠意否則我會希望支持有刪減想法的其他委員"},{"start":25838.491,"end":25863.865,"text":"另外我們也在這個提案這個預算提案的資料說明當中其實我們也有感覺到這個資安及國安變成只是口號的這個狀況那我們在提案的時候我們就有說請資安署應該用公司協力的方式來辦理資安機和工房等業務結果我們得到的回覆是你們的相關的這些所謂的外部的人員的協力其實只是在協力說"},{"start":25865.706,"end":25889.194,"text":"看哪裡有問題提供建議第一是你們這個外部的委員其實領選的機制也是非常隨機的誰有空誰就來那十個人來了以後呢這個說哪裡哪裡有問題提出來了以後到底有沒有解決結果呢竟然是你們找中央目的事業的主管機關也就是你們自己治安署來看有沒有解決"},{"start":25890.074,"end":25890.574,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":25908.847,"end":25934.393,"text":"好,謝謝,那我們剛剛有請那個資安院院長趕過來先要過來了嘛,那我們署長先說明,謝謝非常謝謝各位委員的支持那因為這個科目15到31我一起就順著講下來這樣可以嗎首先是15"},{"start":25936.479,"end":25948.738,"text":"那我要跟委員報告是說其實這一個項目就是我們完全有有好好拿近一點"},{"start":25950.322,"end":25979.584,"text":"那要跟委員報告的是說因為我們的工作是以資安署要帶的是7650個附屬單位所以應該說7650個政府機關他是資安法納管所以這些政府機關跟特飛機關我們所有開發的系統跟軟體都必須要是大家共用所以要跟委員就一個一個報告下來就是第一個我們第15案其實我們做的"},{"start":25981.193,"end":25987.455,"text":"檢測跟防禦機制都是全部的7650個機關都共用的那16案我快速的講如果能夠補充的不夠清楚再請委員指正那16案因為委員有講到說我們宣傳了那麼久了那為什麼國防部還有一個這樣子的案子嗎那跟委員報告第一個我們現在在做資料就是資料機敏的傳輸的機制"},{"start":26005.06,"end":26024.309,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":26024.569,"end":26053.279,"text":"在內部傳其實也會被偵測到那另外就是也是有訓練的問題所以委員我也知道說訓練永遠都有新人嘛所以我們永遠都必須一直的講說有個資你不能拿到網路上傳那也請委員支持讓我們繼續新人進來我們也必須訓練他那另外就是在那個17案的部分有人才的缺口的這部分我也快速的跟委員報告一下"},{"start":26056.374,"end":26085.285,"text":"能不能跟蔡常委員解釋一下?好!是!是!是!喔!喔!喔!喔!是!瞭解!瞭解!是!瞭解!瞭解!那剛剛委員有...有問到第10...呃...第22案第22案有一個延期就是...呃...是那個...那個林委員有問到的那這個部分其實要跟委員報告就是說呃...我們不是...我們自己的人而已因為我們一直發現有新的"},{"start":26086.005,"end":26093.61,"text":"新的議題發生比如說AI產生了那麼AI上面我要怎麼防禦人家用AI攻擊我那我得要知道我要怎麼防禦這一段我們得要交所有的7650個機關比如說雲端現在又跑到雲了那雲也不是自己維護那我應該要怎麼防禦才能讓我的資料夠安全那比如說IOT以前沒有用那麼多可是現在幾乎所有的設備都是IOT所以跟委員報告說我們為什麼有一個新的"},{"start":26115.145,"end":26131.766,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":26131.846,"end":26156.303,"text":"然後另外那個盧委員您也問到了同一題所以我是跟委員報告因為有新的新的服務跟新的技術出來那我還是得以自然屬的角色我還是得要知道各國怎麼做那我也要找出真正的防禦機制倒不是運用這個技術去發展新的服務但是如果它上面有漏洞我也得要想辦法做防禦那另外就是"},{"start":26158.049,"end":26186.444,"text":"二十五案林委員有問到說我們有編這個策略會議那我要跟委員報告為什麼二十五案我們這一部分的錢會變多因為我們在資安法修法之後要開始做危害國家資通訊安全產品危害國家資安產品的審議那這個審議不是資安署或者任何人隨便說這個可以用或不可以用我們一定要有情資分享那我們也一定要合理的經過了那個外部的討論跟"},{"start":26187.984,"end":26207.194,"text":"專業的機關的討論機制所以這個審議我們預估會非常多場所以這一部分的經費就是我們為了要做這件事必須要有相對的經費那剛剛那個林沛翔委員有問到就是27案那27案的這個要跟委員特別報告委員有關心說"},{"start":26208.746,"end":26229.121,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26229.923,"end":26246.408,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26246.912,"end":26247.872,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":26264.232,"end":26276.201,"text":"任何的有任何的惡意的中繼站或者是有任何的漏洞我除了要求機關自己要修補之外我必須要在整個GSN那邊去做偵測然後有沒有人其實沒修補好我從外部才可以看得到所以這一段偵數也必須做相對的工作這個真的要請委員支持因為我們現在有7650個機關被納管"},{"start":26287.91,"end":26310.623,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26310.783,"end":26325.127,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基"},{"start":26340.834,"end":26342.035,"text":"公路基金-國道公路建公路基金-國道公路基金-國道公路基金"},{"start":26359.4,"end":26361.421,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":26375.891,"end":26375.911,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":26391.138,"end":26397.481,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":26420.857,"end":26420.877,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":26434.956,"end":26435.857,"text":"國安委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":26464.272,"end":26467.773,"text":"請大家也不要忘了因為數位部所有東西本來資安的東西是比較籠統"},{"start":26484.934,"end":26503.76,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":26516.216,"end":26532.708,"text":"市役托的經費,我想資安、道安都是很重要的國人關切的議題不管資安或是道安,這個經費看能不能3.1千萬、凍結10%、提書面報告"},{"start":26538.852,"end":26539.753,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":26563.311,"end":26575.138,"text":"不好意思補充一下其他這個你們同意我沒有意見啊但是這個剔除掉這個獎補助費對國內團體的補助啊這個部分送協商啦好不好那到時候請那個院長再報告一下"},{"start":26578.752,"end":26583.453,"text":"關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":26600.706,"end":26613.374,"text":"他在搞啊?快到了路上快到了啦在哪裡?在幾分鐘?減1000萬然後動10%這點我們認同但是說現在人沒有來嘛老實說真的蔣補助蔣補助基本上就是很複雜的事情嘛好啦他就說我們叫他就趕過來他說在15分鐘內趕到啦"},{"start":26629.769,"end":26631.21,"text":"徐富奎委員"},{"start":26660.242,"end":26664.823,"text":"徐副委員徐副委員徐副委員徐副委員徐副委員徐副委員徐副委員徐副委員徐副委員徐副委員"},{"start":26687.573,"end":26688.193,"text":"徐副國務委員提問第42"},{"start":26703.746,"end":26705.048,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":26721.65,"end":26738.886,"text":"但是因為整體我們在外面所平均聽到的一個感覺效率跟民眾的期待感覺沒有很好那政府機關的一個治安的一個防護也也沒有達到預期啦所以我這邊的一個提案是3減2500萬針對5000萬3減2500萬凍結50%那就全部沒有了謝謝"},{"start":26754.269,"end":26780.27,"text":"主席因為我32案這裡特別就是他們也是這個委辦的這個部分還有人員的訓練這個部分我覺得人員訓練的是太少了這個我們在執行的時候都執行了老半天結果你們在說明的時候也不把它說明清楚所以本席也是主張說這個部分還是要刪的"},{"start":26781.431,"end":26789.537,"text":"因為我是教有理性的3、500萬3、500萬這個稀募7490萬3、500萬3、500萬總結5000萬這樣他們要怎麼做工作你說他們訓練太少了,這樣他們還沒辦法訓練啊"},{"start":26809.656,"end":26818.49,"text":"我們等下就病案處理啦,好不好?還有沒有委員要提問?如果沒有,我們就先請那個治安署署長來說明。"},{"start":26820.899,"end":26845.01,"text":"好,非常謝謝委員關心那個人員訓練這一塊我要跟委員報告這一個的委辦費就是今年特別資安署新接的工作因為我們之前是我們的訓練是育才、留才、攬才育才是資安職能訓練這本來資安署就有在做我們的那個資安長啊或資安職能的訓練或者是資安趨勢的說明這本來就有在做那留才的部分我們今年會想要"},{"start":26847.707,"end":26853.933,"text":"預財是延續性的但這個是新的新界的工作我要講說那預財是延續性的"},{"start":26863.712,"end":26884.241,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26884.241,"end":26914.172,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26915.403,"end":26929.731,"text":"學生他自己就近北中南選學校上課然後只要他拿到學分的那個審查合格也可以轉成資訊直系的話他就可以得到學分的補助但是有條件的"},{"start":26930.652,"end":26950.545,"text":"所以這一塊要跟委員報告說因為真的資安人才非常的少所以我們新接了一個轉職系的工作那我們希望跟全國的大專院校合作請他們幫我們栽培各地因為大家分散在全國所以不可能來台北他就就近在他那邊上課取得學分那那個學分只要他考試及格有交報告經過全序部認可的話我們會補助他學分費"},{"start":26957.329,"end":26972.995,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":26973.115,"end":26993.307,"text":"那真的是需要委員的支持是他每一筆經費其實都不是花在資安署也不是花在資安署要聘人的身上就是要給全國那些想要轉職系的人可以讓他去學就近跟大學修相關的學分但是要經過合格學校認給學分而且要全序部認可我們才會讓他可以轉職系"},{"start":26996.269,"end":27021.879,"text":"好那個那個謝書長我再再度請教你一下這一千人你看起來這個叫做畫餅政策啦畫餅政策所以可以做但是你如何去做從來沒有講說你們應該怎麼做所以我們魯超七人已經講說喔補助他們做高鐵我跟你講這個叫做空洞所以我我坦白講啦"},{"start":27022.919,"end":27039.329,"text":"你們剛開始你們也不曉得其實收服委員預算就簡單你們不能收服委員說實在我們就一例一例我們就會有砍預算的這種做法所以我還是建議我還是建議"},{"start":27040.47,"end":27064.25,"text":"比較簡單一點讓召集人有一點對事情處理的比較簡單化我希望有委員在問如何做的時候你們針對問題去答覆不要那種話柄衝擊的政策這樣不好所以我還是建議啦我還是建議該刪的刪阿其他的部分就讓他們去做該支持的我們去支持這樣可能會比較好"},{"start":27065.629,"end":27066.69,"text":"主席,你們補助同學修資訊資安"},{"start":27082.389,"end":27097.213,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":27110.496,"end":27111.716,"text":"報告委員首先是公務人員"},{"start":27134.841,"end":27143.408,"text":"然後我們已經調查過有一千三百個公務人員希望能夠轉職系訓練轉成資訊或資安人員那全國的資訊資安都缺乏所以我們讓機關首長推薦他們的人願意去學習的話我們給所以牽涉條件是公務人員是公務人員去某個學校去報名至少要學兩個這個"},{"start":27158.919,"end":27160.741,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":27182.096,"end":27182.756,"text":"議員報告我們現在正在努力。"},{"start":27204.582,"end":27224.496,"text":"三檢然後凍結你這個東西一定要說清楚啊到底未來的貢獻為什麼他回到各單位你總是要有一些束縛嘛你學了這個之後回去貢獻願意接資安單位的資安工作他願意嗎要願意接資安工作他才能拿到最後的補助款沒有沒有沒有錢是自己先付"},{"start":27233.772,"end":27245.857,"text":"主席主席主席我建議3-500凍結20%我建議3-500凍結20%不然的話說真的不然的話我們就把這個提到大院去好了請其他政黨協商好了因為老實說越聽我越迷糊"},{"start":27256.605,"end":27256.625,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":27272.555,"end":27296.982,"text":"全國的機關的公務人員就是要加強這個資安人員的培訓就是要轉職系的一個培訓那確實目前各機關因為我也有接觸到有些機關的這個資訊的人員確實是不足所以這個是我們是針對公務人員不是針對體制外的一般人所以確實是有那個需求所以我們也尊重委員的提案我們就刪減500萬"},{"start":27298.742,"end":27323.42,"text":"我們凍結10%提書面報告後使得凍支我們就是科目自行調整就是針對第二幕的資通安全業務輔導培訓業務這一個部分我們就做這樣的處理這一個細幕裡面我都知道我要宣布主席不好意思委辦費我們剛剛講的是培訓是輔導培訓業務不包括委辦費吧委辦費兩不一樣"},{"start":27328.2,"end":27354.462,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27355.859,"end":27355.959,"text":"主席"},{"start":27379.62,"end":27380.902,"text":"關於交通部主管交通作業基金公路建"},{"start":27389.38,"end":27414.078,"text":"好,謝謝那個趙紀仁還有各位委員那資安院是一個行政法人所以是以執行政府交付的任務為最主要的部分那目前我們跟資安署是一個工作夥伴的關係那資安署負責是整個政府的政策法規相關制度的推動"},{"start":27414.818,"end":27416.88,"text":"資安技術研發資安事件通報應變處理、攻防演練等資訊技術應用"},{"start":27430.074,"end":27438.177,"text":"全都由資安署編列相關補助費用來協助推動。成立兩年以來,資安署在國內資安人才相當困難的情況下,延展250個專業。專業人才一方面執行國家重要政策的技術研發通報應變以外,我們也幫企業,特別講幫企業,"},{"start":27460.006,"end":27487.726,"text":"包括中央跟地方的這個相關治安的技術還有執行了一些公防研練每年的治安檢測還有治安服務團都是由治安院這邊依靠這個補助款來推動所以懇請各個委員能夠支持這樣的工作讓我們治安院在目前的人力編鑄還有一些協助從中央到地方還有公事部門的治安的"},{"start":27488.506,"end":27498.539,"text":"推動幫助國家強化數位證券安全以上補充,謝謝好,那針對院長的說明魯明哲教委好,再詢問好,謝謝院長趕過來跟檢要的說明是因為現在250人是滿編嗎?"},{"start":27504.826,"end":27528.703,"text":"來跟那個委員報告不好意思問一下報告委員因為行政法人並沒有向政府有這個所謂的編制原格預算原格所以你們現在大概有多少人力我們大概是250人是根據這個數位部說話部還有治安署的委辦計劃能夠容納的這個人事監會裡面來處理那現在我們治安署編的所有的委辦被"},{"start":27529.804,"end":27559.787,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27559.907,"end":27580.142,"text":"委辦部分公開部分我們去競標可能除了治安院以外還有其他的法人跟學校也可以去競標以上補充謝謝可是你們現在兩百多人治安院你們有一個幕僚單位、頭部的單位你們還委託一大堆出去不是你我想說署內最後一個問題"},{"start":27581.323,"end":27588.324,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":27616.886,"end":27631.693,"text":"還有部長我特別要提醒一下行政法人只要接受政府之補助通通一定要來累洗你接受我政府的補助"},{"start":27635.701,"end":27650.832,"text":"說實在這跟標案無關欸你知道嗎所以我坦白跟你講跟部長因為你們剛成立不久體制可能至極自設混亂本來立法院只要用到補助也好"},{"start":27652.376,"end":27667.765,"text":"預算一定有關那當然一定要來練習有時候我們審到這個部分你補助是應該要怎麼補助我們要了解這些情況所以我還是建議行政法人還是一定就幾例"},{"start":27668.926,"end":27691.381,"text":"高鐵我們在審預算有時候請他來他也要來啊不是嗎所以這個我還是建議我們大院長啊這個特別觀念啊要互相這是對立法院一個尊重對署裡面幫助署裡面尊重立法院對整個預算是有幫助的不是行政法人就不需要來列席"},{"start":27691.941,"end":27710.93,"text":"不是這樣好不好那謝謝林國成委員的提醒跟建議那我們這裡就來做一個處理那我們也感謝院長趕過來那針對第15到31案資通安全業務綜合規劃管理這一個細目我們就是做成決議刪減1000萬凍結10%提書面報告後使得動之好謝謝"},{"start":27717.036,"end":27721.059,"text":"接下來處理49-56案資通安全業務集合檢查業務這個細目請提案委員提問"},{"start":27735.589,"end":27755.879,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":27756.345,"end":27771.259,"text":"委員拜託我們今年想在集合的部分增加範圍然後而且因為在114年我必須要集合5院就是行政院之外跟地方政府真的恳請委員能夠盡量支持我們我們可不可以交報告就好"},{"start":27777.995,"end":27790.785,"text":"三減兩百三減兩百那就不予凍結我們就在資通安全業務集合檢查業務這邊就做成決議成效率不漲的現在要三兩百而已我是要三一半因為之前成效不漲你們之前是三兩百這個問題"},{"start":27802.261,"end":27824.36,"text":"決議決議決議"},{"start":27825.981,"end":27840.863,"text":"剪短講一下,國外禮費講真的啦,因為我發覺包括了科技辦他們很多出國的方案後面都發覺有我們數位部的同仁"},{"start":27841.864,"end":27861.912,"text":"還有去那我們有接到一些內部的一個訊息齁那我們覺得說因為部長上任的時候特別對於針對於出國的時候啊有特別有說一些啦也有調整了齁那我們就希望我們還是再幫你調整一下那我們針對於呃這個出國外的旅費啊761萬6000元齁呃個人在這裡提案3減50%凍結20%"},{"start":27871.155,"end":27900.311,"text":"好那還有人要提問嗎?沒有我們就請資安署我們縣署長說明委員拜託因為資安署其實資安我們參加國際的工房的合作我大概很難從線上因為有些國家我必須去那邊實際參與比如說藍軍紅軍的攻打所以我一定要派人出去那這一塊資安署的所有的預算都是同仁也沒有"},{"start":27900.691,"end":27923.575,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27923.635,"end":27924.195,"text":"國道公路建公路建"},{"start":27939.591,"end":27959.505,"text":"哦不是其實齁我記得前幾年我們對於這個出國尤其在前部長的時候我們對於這些案子非常非常的反感社會觀感是非常非常差的所以說這個案子上面來講如果出國還有跟這方面的業務我們都印象很奇怪的是說我們是訴法部我們是治安署那你現在想說一定要到現場去做這個事情那我們這些設備買來幹嘛"},{"start":27961.642,"end":27962.723,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":27979.054,"end":27996.543,"text":"社會關係不佳早前有關租金的事情,就是一年租十幾萬,那時候我們之前有遇到唐鳳部長租個大樓租個十幾萬,後來大家罵亂七八糟,後來新聞過了可能就沒了,可是事實上來講我們現在就要重新隨時預算"},{"start":27998.76,"end":28016.389,"text":"所以也是這個原因我這邊我也有列出3.4百萬的原因在這裡因為說真的如果說你出國旅費一堆如果說其他地方我不敢講數位發展部你們應該是全台灣最先進科技的公部門然後你們跟我講說你們一定要出國這個我不知道該怎麼去解釋"},{"start":28019.627,"end":28020.127,"text":"李昆哲委員"},{"start":28041.423,"end":28063.914,"text":"那其實疫情的衝擊是我們很不好的一個感受的記憶但是視訊會議又是一個特別的記憶當然在疫情期間是不得不的一種作為但是實際上現在的這種會議有它的必要性如果可以視訊的當然你都免去"},{"start":28064.794,"end":28066.235,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":28076.315,"end":28076.455,"text":"主席"},{"start":28101.238,"end":28106.041,"text":"那像這一種他跟我交換那個工房的那個技術他就算是我們我們辦我們的CI的那個工房我們也請他實地來我也很不接受線上因為線上很容易東西整個被搬走所以這個要拜託委員就是資安署根本沒有其他的其他什麼訪問什麼的真的沒有我們就是去集合要不然就是要參加工房演練"},{"start":28127.356,"end":28127.496,"text":"或國際情資交換"},{"start":28142.503,"end":28143.024,"text":"國道公路建"},{"start":28159.501,"end":28159.921,"text":"法規及國際合作"},{"start":28191.038,"end":28192.519,"text":"法規及國際合作業務及國外旅遊"},{"start":28212.962,"end":28224.559,"text":"好,那我們就決議就是刪100萬然後科目自行調整就不予凍結好那我們現在就是來接下來處理主決議好我們第65案"},{"start":28226.161,"end":28248.358,"text":"六十六案、六十七案、六十八案、六十九案、七十案、七十一案、七十二案可不可以改成書面報告?"},{"start":28253.809,"end":28260.714,"text":"七十二案改書面報告七十三案可不可以改成書面報告如趙委同意有關速發部資通安全署的114年度單位預算委員提案我們處理完畢謝謝接下來來處理產發署"},{"start":28281.391,"end":28307.108,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28334.106,"end":28334.547,"text":"趕快就位好不好"},{"start":28345.095,"end":28373.818,"text":"趕快坐下來該離開的離開該就位的就位好那個剛剛資安署的就先離開了好不好那我們現在就是開始來處理數位產業署那針對稅出第一幕一般行政的部分總共有六案那我們是不是請提案委員有沒有要提問的部分好請林國成委員"},{"start":28376.145,"end":28388.973,"text":"好,謝謝趙委,因為時間的關係啦,我還是主張簡略,49萬5,49萬5好,那其他委員還有沒有要說明,林佩翔委員,謝謝"},{"start":28391.758,"end":28409.895,"text":"我主要針對第三案跟第三案跟第四案第三案就是有關水電費那其實基本上來講這個這個電價不斷上漲所以預確保預算有效使用所以專節政府開源所以減所以說減掉所以凍結50%另外就是我一直很好奇就是2113萬"},{"start":28412.697,"end":28420.351,"text":"一年的其他業務租金我個人認為這個經費會不會太高了一點所以說我希望能夠凍結50%而且專案報告"},{"start":28424.125,"end":28452.313,"text":"好,那我們就請那個林代理署長說明,謝謝主席跟委員好,那跟委員報告一下就是第一個林委員這邊推詢的這個有關49萬5千的這部分是有三個部分那第一個部分是公務車的導航跟環境設備這個因為台影共同公民企業我們當初購買車輛的時候他並沒有相關的設備所以為了這個安全考量這個部分是12萬"},{"start":28453.353,"end":28469.394,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28469.494,"end":28483.341,"text":"所以大概就是這兩大部分才構成這495,000元希望委員因為這個是為安全跟以及擴增這個會議空間來使用這個都為了公共的一個使用所以希望委員能夠支持"},{"start":28486.451,"end":28512.807,"text":"租金的部分呢?租金的部分是感謝委員垂詢這個我先講水電會好了水電會委員應該大概知道電價調漲還有我們其實這兩年來每年都新增了不少業務在數位承運署的部分所以它會有相對的這些的一些支出那另外租金的部分我想感謝委員的垂詢那租金的部分我們其實包含三個部分"},{"start":28513.587,"end":28515.809,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":28535.247,"end":28565.043,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":28565.657,"end":28595.589,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28598.835,"end":28617.206,"text":"書面報告,他們會提書面報告。這個有契約嗎?有,他們有契約。契約的話就是時之時付吧?"},{"start":28619.901,"end":28640.733,"text":"對呀,就是這一幕嘛。我們是不是就凍結百分之二十,好啦。就書面報告啦,你還要書面報告。欸,趙偉,我這四十幾萬年,其實它是沒有急迫性的啦。我刪它這些東西是沒有急迫性。"},{"start":28642.754,"end":28643.014,"text":"提案委員說明"},{"start":28671.593,"end":28697.981,"text":"好 謝謝主席簡單說明這個是一個新增的一個計畫然後明年是第一年六千萬但是在整個預算書裡面講的不是根本沒有講不清不楚就要拿六千萬覺得這個產業署在很多編預算的過程都出現這樣的一個問題很含混的就想要拿預算我想這個部分這個我是個人這邊三減兩千萬凍結反正二十希望你們"},{"start":28700.922,"end":28725.057,"text":"鼓勵你們以後編預算的時候把它寫清楚。以上。好,那林培祥委員有要說嗎?沒有了。好,那我們這邊林署長說明一下。好,跟趙偉跟委員報告。這個計畫是我們數位公共建設,就是虛擬世界的造橋鋪路。我們在實體設計造橋鋪路讓各個企業所數位的公共空間也需要能夠做公共建設。"},{"start":28726.077,"end":28742.045,"text":"各國也在做數位空間的公共建設像日本就有虛擬社股還有巴黎有巴黎聖母鏈在數位空間的使用很多企業都很期盼"},{"start":28744.631,"end":28761.497,"text":"國內的國際大廠其實也投入像數位雙生、元宇宙等等而我們在明年會建兩個示範案例這個示範案例是因為我們沒有做過所以要做完之後這個當中也會找地方政委來一起參與因為後年開始就是地方政委要來參加的"},{"start":28764.058,"end":28787.468,"text":"該基金會會下放到地方政府所以有地方政府後年開始就來申請所以明年我們會帶訓也算是培訓這些地方政府能夠開案能夠應用數位空間來創造價值那這個部分這個可以用到電商啊觀光啊數位學習啊等等的我覺得這個是數位空間裡面應該是希望委員會能夠支持那因為它是個新的藍海謝謝"},{"start":28789.889,"end":28790.349,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":28817.988,"end":28820.169,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":28839.395,"end":28866.41,"text":"五百萬。要看魯昭偉。好。OK。好。那魯昭偉同意。那就是三減五百萬然後凍結百分之十提書面報告後時的凍資。好。好。謝謝。那接下來我們處理九到十四案就是業務費的委辦費。總共預算數31億零七七百五十二萬八千元。好。那我們是請提案委員魯明哲昭偉。謝謝。"},{"start":28867.918,"end":28887.915,"text":"好 謝謝主席其實外面都在說我們數位部家大業大財大然後氣也出那但是其實家大財大其實大在我們的產業署錢幾乎都在你這裡那在這個尾半費的部分113年編了21.7億21.7億那今年呢我們看到114年的我們現在審的預算"},{"start":28895.862,"end":28898.829,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":28904.497,"end":28926.152,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28926.152,"end":28949.889,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28950.009,"end":28963.919,"text":"第1個有重複性不管是案子的內容跟其他的有重複性第2個是廠商有重複性第3個是標書記的委辦的廠商你們要求他要有駐場人員有沒有住在你們署裡面的"},{"start":28970.222,"end":28985.026,"text":"這是我們接到的罕見,如果是真正的沒有,變成你們的小祕書,但是這尾半分一下多10億,我個人是沒辦法接受,所以我就把大概10億把它調整回來,我是在這裡提出來是3減10億,凍結10%以上"},{"start":28991.155,"end":29009.477,"text":"好 那我們提案委員都有做提問了那在這邊先說明就是11、12、13、14案就是提案委員同意改為主決議案好 那這樣子我們來做一個處理那是不是請我們林署長這邊說明"},{"start":29012.299,"end":29037.292,"text":"陳昭偉跟陸昭偉報告因為數位產業署是幾乎性質上就等同過去我在工業局就經濟部上面他是個產業輔導單位所以他大部分都是協助產業的這首先跟委員報告一下那這9億的增加的部分其實我也可以跟委員再報告一下就是他其實是第一個是5G專頻專網的部分這是我的法定職長"},{"start":29038.68,"end":29057.769,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建"},{"start":29066.834,"end":29068.817,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":29082.955,"end":29106.728,"text":"所以這個都是新的業務,不是就是說請委員支持,不是我們要增加,而是因為太多的新的業務是下放到數位產業署這邊,數位產業署為了達成任務其實是需要一些資金,而且這些都是相當的重要,就對台灣未來的發展,產業的發展相當的重要。以上簡單跟跟委員跟召委報告。"},{"start":29107.971,"end":29136.217,"text":"我們這個項目的預算是新的所以增加10億是都是一些新的科技或者是我們的法定職長法定職長這有沒有可能就是逐年去進行的我們其實因為委員都關注這個議題其實因為如果業務增加我就其實真的是沒有辦法但是如果說"},{"start":29138.018,"end":29163.938,"text":"我們是不是維持到114年的水準之然後以後即使有業務增加我們看能不能在維持一樣同樣維持114年的水準這是我們可以來嘗試看看但是真的把它逐年下降這對我們業務一直增加這個我可能會有困難因為對於數位產業組他還是會有很多新的任務新的科技要研發新的產業要發展這是我可能比較困難的地方"},{"start":29166.518,"end":29191.639,"text":"謝謝林署長的說明,那我們魯昭偉這邊還有一些嗎?這樣啦,我簡單補充一下啦第一個因為你這個如果是增加你們自己的內部的一些業務那也就罷了,因為這是委辦費,就是我給你這個錢你會委託別人就對了會把它委託出去,委託給誰你大概心裡都知道是哪些人了但是坦白講我們是採的沒有很信任的沒有很信任,包括了"},{"start":29192.602,"end":29192.782,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29208.08,"end":29210.321,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":29225.766,"end":29229.168,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":29256.087,"end":29265.152,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算"},{"start":29270.401,"end":29288.712,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29289.733,"end":29309.451,"text":"產業署,他們剛剛署長有說明,那個林代理署長說明,確實他們的這個責任也非常的重大,就是關係到整個產業的輔導也好,或者是之後的專頻專網,等等相關的一些先進的業務。報告委員們,那個有一個重要工作還是因為很多AI的推動。"},{"start":29310.852,"end":29317.96,"text":"在這裡面就是因為這個署要特別去進行因為我們要發展AI的產業產業AI化所以這個東西確實所以希望還是委員支持因為這個東西"},{"start":29325.689,"end":29348.537,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金"},{"start":29354.141,"end":29354.161,"text":"委員會審"},{"start":29372.888,"end":29377.39,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":29400.66,"end":29402.581,"text":"第15至19項業務費、旅運費、國外旅費總預算數324萬4千元提案委員有要垂詢的部分嗎?"},{"start":29421.539,"end":29422.159,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29445.08,"end":29449.422,"text":"美國資訊安全大會美國網域名稱美國南韓亞太經濟合作會議黑客松美國新加坡"},{"start":29462.874,"end":29483.45,"text":"參加國際會議論壇或研討會或國際展覽或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或或你在玩我們是不是然後地點地點歐美亞太你畫個地球我比較懂欸"},{"start":29485.213,"end":29515.213,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":29515.994,"end":29526.528,"text":"七種可能七種可能猜不到地區又是歐、美、亞、泰等地區沒有啦講這樣我就講到這樣啦拜託所以我這邊寫3-150萬真的以後不能這樣寫我想這個你們也不要在乎了謝謝"},{"start":29535.233,"end":29544.557,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":29562.241,"end":29587.6,"text":"首先跟委員抱歉這個的確是過去的老規啦這個我們應該會改善就過去在因為最主要是因為我們自衛產業署的業務比較雜一點所以就會保留一點彈性這個這個老實說不過我們未來一定會改善這個跟趙委抱歉這個對這個我們一定會不過我們"},{"start":29590.691,"end":29591.051,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29608.076,"end":29614.258,"text":"我們其實從112年427萬113年398萬到明年324萬已經逐年下降但因為我們還要帶產業去做唾銷我們要參加國際的會議所以希望說不要刪減這麼多3億百萬可以嗎?"},{"start":29636.724,"end":29640.766,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":29656.716,"end":29674.447,"text":"不過你們寫的這些不管是理由或是地點真的是匪夷所思自己還說這個是過去的漏龜這是工業局的漏龜還是現在數位產業署的漏龜他們就是從工業局轉生過來的分業務過來的"},{"start":29677.833,"end":29698.761,"text":"就是因為業務比較複雜,比較難以預料。複雜,三百多萬,不是三十億,你說你很複雜。然後自己要開什麼會,那資安署,我看我們資安署那個預算要把它補回去啦,要給我下落,真的。人家要開什麼會什麼都講得清清楚楚。啊你們到現在,"},{"start":29700.888,"end":29704.031,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":29725.091,"end":29732.239,"text":"有,RSA在美國,WCIT因為它美國輪流組舉辦,80幾個國,明年我們可能要確定它在哪一個國家,它有80幾國"},{"start":29733.573,"end":29736.574,"text":"智慧城市分論壇-印尼、馬來西亞、泰國、越南等推廣智慧城鄉的解決方案參與國際標準-FIDO聯盟、歐盟EIDAS國際展會MWC、AODP亞洲開放資料聯盟"},{"start":29760.615,"end":29782.623,"text":"這些...這些都是我們會內局在...這個我不得不講中話這都很明確的一些會議然後你們自己寫的這些在預算裡面的說明啊是如此啊這不只是看不起交通委員會啊你們也看不起你們自己這種基本的這種預算的說明啊如此這種啊不周全那我建議啦38...3824萬"},{"start":29788.763,"end":29795.667,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":29811.854,"end":29812.554,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":29828.604,"end":29829.225,"text":"提案委員李崑澤提動結案"},{"start":29851.454,"end":29875.84,"text":"若你同意,我們就照提案。捐贈應該兩個對象,一個是直接補助研發法人的,像公營資策會之類的研發法人。另一個是給企業的,就企業來申請我們的補助款,我們請專家學者審查通過後。好,那我們就照提案委員李崑澤的提案,我們就凍結五千萬元,好不好。"},{"start":29878.562,"end":29880.844,"text":"張志友跟委員辦公室有溝通,他說凍結1000看能不能。"},{"start":29884.212,"end":29905.669,"text":"動解一千萬元,然後提書面報告後,使得動之。接下來我們處理第22案,媒體政策及業務宣導費,促進數位創新動能轉型升級。這一案的預算數是337萬3千元。提案委員魯明哲委員,林沛翔委員要發言。"},{"start":29907.507,"end":29917.253,"text":"主要是針對這個媒體政策這次又多出來的應該算是多出來的100多萬元那其實政府打54%所以說我們會建議說這邊刪除之外通緝10%刪除150萬通緝10%好那我們請林署長說明"},{"start":29926.52,"end":29926.841,"text":"媒體預算不能留用"},{"start":29944.318,"end":29971.899,"text":"所以我們明年又有深層式AI我們又有一些5G專屏專網我們會有一些新的科技新的措施要去推廣所以我們會懇求委員這邊不要就是能夠刪減或者凍結少一點讓我們這邊可以推展一些業務以上好那請問這案你有跟魯明澤召委溝通嗎召委說就我決定那我就我會建議說不刪減但是我會建議凍結25%"},{"start":29973.662,"end":29976.625,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建"},{"start":29995.44,"end":30010.592,"text":"第二十三到四十八案有關促進數位創新動能轉型升級科目預算數是四十二億六千五百五十萬八千元這個部分我們請提案委員要不要詮詢。"},{"start":30013.335,"end":30013.835,"text":"國道公路建委員"},{"start":30030.271,"end":30048.848,"text":"其實還是一直都有要增進的空間那本席在電子簽張法審查的過程當中除了持續的帶領推動之外也曾多次提到這個22年到23年之間沒有修正有多達26個政府部門排除適用電子簽張也造成我們的民眾"},{"start":30050.129,"end":30069.657,"text":"做各種的公務申辦甚至是民間的企業或者是做各種的這個政府的服務其實都還需要零貴甚至需要實體簽名蓋章等等那因此本市修法總算通過了那我們是希望能夠加速趕上世界的潮流剛剛這個代理署長也講了"},{"start":30071.638,"end":30077.644,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":30090.597,"end":30106.975,"text":"訴發部目前有沒有哪一個部會向訴發部申請要展延緩衝期到一年以上或者到兩年的這個我想希望聽待會說明一下因為這裡我有做一個這個板子他已經多次出現在我們的立法院內了"},{"start":30108.857,"end":30131.796,"text":"這個怕部長看不清楚這個是多達26個政府部門明文排除適用電子簽章但我們電子簽章法修法已經通過了5月15號前總統蔡英文總統前總統公佈施行到現在已經超過半年了26個中央部會裡面我們的理解是還是有17個是排除電子簽章適用的"},{"start":30132.296,"end":30155.575,"text":"那速發部有沒有積極協助各部會來排除適應的困難呢?扣除農曆年我們可能只剩下不到5個月的時間請問速發部你們預算排了要促進數位創新功能轉型升級那這個升級也要升普及也要普及那這個電子簽章算是我們23、22年來最重要的一次修法"},{"start":30156.375,"end":30176.581,"text":"訴發部你預算編了你有沒有信心能夠達成目標然後呢我們剛剛的問題很具體現在你只有17個你還有17個排除適用也就不到10個只有個位數的部門是決定要不排除所以訴發部這邊有沒有掌握那這個部分我希望可以很明確的來說明謝謝"},{"start":30179.176,"end":30188.359,"text":"格儒君委員林國成委員本席提案是23案跟42案23案我認為促進數位創新轉型升級這個部分本席是主張3減10億凍結50%"},{"start":30203.323,"end":30222.559,"text":"另外一個42案這個部分我特別要跟各位報告這我們黨團非常注意非常重視所以我希望這兩筆預算一定要刪一定要刪以上跟各位報告好謝謝林國成委員好那林培祥委員謝謝"},{"start":30225.335,"end":30250.374,"text":"我的案子基本上跟其他跟兩位有重複我就不提了所謂是這類29案數位共融以及培育計畫我剛好看到昭緯也有一樣的疑惑就是說這樣子這個數位共融培育計畫這包山包海又是衛福部文化部然後講的說是因為要產業人才培訓要落實偏鄉非山非市數位平權這個包山包海的那我覺得這東西需要說明清楚啦"},{"start":30250.914,"end":30267.514,"text":"這件事需要重新分析甚至覺得說我現在我提議案是動機50%然後在6個月裡面提出專案報告當然也看大家也看我們所有委員的嫌疑跟我們部裡面的回答好謝謝林培祥委員那還有委員要提問徵詢的嗎李崑澤委員"},{"start":30271.968,"end":30299.105,"text":"林國成委員提議3減10億凍結50%第一個我們要請等一下組長來清楚說明這個相關的預算42億他主要的編列的理由及項目那42億砍10億這個是很嚴重好像一個人的四隻你要砍掉他一隻這很嚴重的事情"},{"start":30300.646,"end":30302.228,"text":"凍結50%凍結預算一般警告5-10%15%-20%是嚴重警告必須提出明確說明"},{"start":30319.723,"end":30321.004,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":30341.318,"end":30342.779,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":30363.277,"end":30364.718,"text":"電簽法通過之前有33個機關,兩間456項排除"},{"start":30392.248,"end":30411.001,"text":"那其中在電簽法通過的時候有兩個機關排除適用就是不用適用就是司法院及法務部他們總共有669項的就是適用了不適用這個電簽法這個在法律上已經規定了"},{"start":30411.761,"end":30424.89,"text":"所以這個我們剩下是31個機關1787項的一個排除適用我們經過半年的努力我們剩下只剩下21個機關跟894項排除總共計效是10個機關893項已經符合要採用我們電簽法當然我們會繼續推動另外一個就是剛剛委員有推詢說我們有沒有協助這個各部位的工具 有的"},{"start":30438.639,"end":30446.305,"text":"訴證師的IT費用已經納入各部會推動電簽法需要的資訊採購都可以納入訴證師相關的IT審查當中所以這個在協助各部會的部分也有另外我們其實跟部會一直在召開電簽法相關的適用排除的一些會議我們來協助他甚至請其他沒有排除的機關來做一些經驗的分享"},{"start":30468.38,"end":30476.087,"text":"所以這個就是先跟這個葛委員這邊報告再來就林委員這邊垂詢的這個我們這個獎補助這個經費的17億再加上另外的19億等等"},{"start":30485.12,"end":30488.861,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":30510.527,"end":30521.377,"text":"此外,國內人才部署與AIT合作,培訓國外人才來台灣的就業。此外,國內人才部署與AIT合作,培訓國外人才來台灣的就業。"},{"start":30526.221,"end":30533.985,"text":"那在一些產業的輔導上面我們需要我們叫輔導電子商務我們要輔導第三方支出我們要輔導數位遊戲我們要輔導資產產業我們要輔導AI產業我們要輔導資訊服務業等等他們從出生到死亡中都是數位產業主要負責的"},{"start":30543.51,"end":30568.485,"text":"另外的話我們對於我們的法定職長5G專頻專網我們要核發執照我們要去審查現在已經核發了100多張那新科技的導入更是不遺餘力包括各位現在看到的AI、資安剛剛講的後量子密碼、Big Data、區塊鏈我想各位委員上次也去參加區塊鏈愛好者聯會那個我們也很深智慧城鄉、運動科技再加上一些雲端的一些solution"},{"start":30569.105,"end":30572.268,"text":"除了鞭策以外,能夠再給予一些寬列,讓我們能夠真的去輔導我們的數位產業。"},{"start":30595.143,"end":30616.784,"text":"這是林委員 帶來是沛翔委員這邊的一些就是我們那個數位共榮跟是不是有跟其他有重複的部分我跟林委員報告因為我們現在對象是非山非市不是山區也不是市區那這些以後以前都因為夾在中間都沒有人照顧他總共有161個行政區"},{"start":30618.886,"end":30636.356,"text":"我們跟在教育部的帶領之下我們其實是分工又合作我們因為數位產業署還是在產位的能量的部分比較有他們相對需要借重我們這方面所以我們把資訊服務業去協助地方的企業去發展我們有培訓地方的種子人才讓他在地方能夠擴散"},{"start":30637.316,"end":30666.337,"text":"我們甚至把國際的資源導入包括各位看到的三大雲端AWS、Google跟這個Microsoft都有協助我們的人才在這個非三非四裡面去做擴散所以這個是我們覺得這個部分是沒有重複而且是相輔相成的再來還有第二個林委員這個部分是像是HPAS的部分跟委員報告因為"},{"start":30667.901,"end":30685.044,"text":"去年的高齡SRB會議主要有很多部位在做協助那它主要是照顧者跟被照顧的被照顧者又分為亞健康跟長照的那數位產業署就要協助照顧者"},{"start":30685.805,"end":30712.891,"text":"增加生產力增加效率增對亞健康的人我們要讓他能夠走出他的家庭變得更健康所以我們會有HPASS這樣有4000多個課程跟活動那我們也會協助地方去培訓相關的人才來教這些亞健康的這些我們的國民去使用這些數位學習的一些題材總共有4000多個"},{"start":30715.155,"end":30728.382,"text":"另外的話我們會有幫助照顧者去協助去為一部相關的照顧機構去協助做長照比如說我們會有一個適時任老人的一個偵測他如果有危險行為的話我們會用AI的技術去偵測及找反應給照顧者"},{"start":30734.851,"end":30735.792,"text":"關於交通部主管交通部主管"},{"start":30753.599,"end":30764.622,"text":"所以我們我們我們覺得在協助各部會去發展上數位產業署這邊真的是也有在用的接近心力在在在這邊在在在協助好"},{"start":30766.263,"end":30767.023,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30788.829,"end":30788.949,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":30805.749,"end":30821.041,"text":"數位創新人才暨學習產業賦能計劃還有數位服務普及暨人才深耕計劃這兩個計劃目的都是要培養數位人才一個目的編列多項計劃本席覺得不合理所以這邊有提出減利500萬那再來是跟"},{"start":30821.721,"end":30841.328,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管"},{"start":30850.311,"end":30865.175,"text":"第43案,樂齡好幫手HPS,他分享的部分文章,之前本席也有提過,他的點擊率過低,素產署還刻意隱藏遮蔽他的點擊率,代表執行的成效不彰,所以要求檢列2000萬幣凍結30%以上,補充說明,謝謝。好,謝謝邱若豪委員,那接下來邀請許富坤委員。"},{"start":30873.009,"end":30892.297,"text":"謝謝主席我剛剛有聽到那個我們蘇衛發生署代理署長在講我覺得他有點在亡羊補牢因為我覺得跟剛剛那個國外旅費的問題一樣其實你們都知道未來要做什麼但是在文書作業上面都沒有呈現出來才會造成我們幾位委員的一個質疑那如果剛剛"},{"start":30893.277,"end":30916.632,"text":"你們在預算書可以呈現你剛才說的做那麼多行的工作,包含我想我們過去一直在強調所謂一個數位高齡數位學習的一個環境的強化裡面,我想我們應該要給你們更多資源來做這些,包含這些老人的關懷據點還有一些數位學習中心,我們應該提供更多的打詐相關的資訊才對啊,你們應該要強化這樣的一個服務,然後尤其一些偏向的部分應該"},{"start":30917.472,"end":30934.078,"text":"去更深入偏向來做這樣的一個學習數位學習的一個強資訊的強化所以我建議是說這個跟幾位委員商量這個能夠給數位發展署一些一些機會能夠給他們一些資源我覺得這個不要以下三那麼多啦應該給他們一些補充說明的機會啦"},{"start":30934.898,"end":30948.398,"text":"因為我覺得未來對這個偏向的一個數位學習還有熱領的一個高領的一個有一個社會學習的一個參與的部分應該要深入的加強一個社會鏈結讓這些老人家能夠有更多一個新的資訊的一個來源謝謝"},{"start":30950.76,"end":30977.13,"text":"謝謝徐副委那我們接下來邀請葛如君委員謝謝戴署長的回覆那這個電子簽法真的太重要了那我們台灣作為科技之島是目前僅存在電子簽章的適用真的是還不夠先進的地方所以請容我在明確的了解一下剛剛戴署長有提到兩個部會是還是法務部跟什麼"},{"start":30978.467,"end":31003.246,"text":"司法院跟法務部因為我們這一次在審電簽法的時候我們非常仔細用心的不希望有任何一個部會自我排除這個到最後在非常多的討論之下連蔡其昌委員連執政黨的蔡其昌委員都加入同意說就是如果有部會要排除的話是需要經由一個過程"},{"start":31003.766,"end":31005.747,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"},{"start":31027.022,"end":31027.162,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":31043.675,"end":31067.916,"text":"那你講產業的時候可是但是你們數位產業真的有在跟這些產業站在一起嗎我還是看到非常多的資安資通的這些系統都是你們又包給這個自己的法人啊我們政府的相關單位啊查核也是相關單位的我剛已經念了中央主管機關在查核啊"},{"start":31068.576,"end":31080.808,"text":"所以我覺得這個代署長未來希望你們在這個預算或計劃的安排上面公司協力也不能是口號不然每次等到要預算的時候都講了很多這些產業要代補那你們真的補了他們嗎我說普遇的普啦所以這個我想這個可不可以在剛剛那個電簽法的部分待會回應一下"},{"start":31092.119,"end":31093.7,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":31114.991,"end":31137.466,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":31138.046,"end":31159.013,"text":"事務業能量帶入、地方人才培訓、國際資源帶入等等但是我們在數位崛起其實是另外一個我們是以輸出我們到目前為止越南跟印尼應該是我們數位崛起輸出的兩個大市場我們甚至在印尼有一整棟都是我們數位崛起廠商在那邊幫忙印尼的廠商去培訓"},{"start":31160.242,"end":31175.181,"text":"所以這個為數位學習這個計畫其實跟剛剛委員所提的數位共榮其實是不一樣也許是我們真的遲不達意讓委員來誤解那另外的話就是次世代這個行動這個是我們目前有四個重點"},{"start":31175.962,"end":31178.663,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":31199.206,"end":31200.526,"text":"培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓"},{"start":31227.148,"end":31255.168,"text":"我們有有我們有拜訪這個辦公室的主任對這個要親自跟林委員來做說明我相信這個促進數位創新啊動能的轉型升級啊我想葛委員在這邊他也非常專業他也知道這是國家未來數位產業又發展的重要趨勢跟基礎那42億要31億其實是很嚴重的啦齁葛委員你你也清楚那"},{"start":31258.361,"end":31259.342,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":31278.047,"end":31305.384,"text":"我就跟你講我們黨團注意這件事我不得不堅持阿的主席踩下去我就說阿人家主席就這樣踩對不對阿的崑澤消委他也是說齁阿的因為說實益太多阿你們就看一下齁怎麼樣處理我想我們消委會該談的該刪的我們會刪但是該通融的我們還是會通融嘛"},{"start":31313.066,"end":31331.651,"text":"我們尊重委員會中心所以說我們看召委怎麼才是然後我們再來協調因為目前來講目前以代署長您講的東西說真的委員們心裡面都覺得怪怪的啦好不好這個不是很受尊重所以讓召委再做才是"},{"start":31332.271,"end":31358.366,"text":"我想很多人都對這部分都蠻注重的那我先請教一下就是我們針對這一個細目的部分跟剛剛我們刪減的那個預算數是有關係的嗎?重複的嗎?是重點?前面刪了1.5億了那我們著刪好不好還是著刪5000萬好了"},{"start":31362.568,"end":31362.588,"text":"三個異議"},{"start":31387.546,"end":31388.547,"text":"因為前面那個委辦費他"},{"start":31410.846,"end":31414.449,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建"},{"start":31437.857,"end":31447.307,"text":"對,因為這邊有四,這裡42億,裡面就是有包了31億,因為委員他在提案的時候只針對42億裡面的31億,特別挑出來詢問的,這樣。對,他這是會計的專業的一個呈現,對啊。"},{"start":31460.322,"end":31480.718,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基"},{"start":31492.154,"end":31493.998,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":31500.04,"end":31521.765,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附"},{"start":31530.699,"end":31551.653,"text":"五十九案、六十二案、六十五案、六十八案通通都是三可是這是三的幅度不是那麼大了所以我還是主張等一下主席去做協調做裁定好不好五十九案、六十二案、六十五案、八十五案"},{"start":31552.313,"end":31575.028,"text":"因為我審過這麼幾個部會的預算數位部的預算講得最不清楚但是數據是最多的所以特別建議黃部長我們不希望明年度還是這樣講清楚事端少講不清楚事端就會多"},{"start":31579.571,"end":31604.084,"text":"林培祥委員我是主要針對61案、68案、69案還有74案基本上來講我附議林國成委員的講法而且包括晶片驅動台灣產業創新這件事情好像跟很多部會都有重疊的狀況而有關智慧防詐通報查詢這方面來講我本席個人認為其實做的是很失敗的"},{"start":31604.864,"end":31626.269,"text":"所以因為是這樣子我們我們必須在這個在以務實的角度來去審視預算的時候我是建議說我們當然尊重主席這是委員會中心尊重尊重主席的才是但是我會建議說去做出一定程度的刪減加動加凍結預算來去保證說未來我們知道這個整個整個案子的進度好那葛如今委員謝謝"},{"start":31627.638,"end":31644.186,"text":"謝主席,本席提案這個預算的部分是第75案,是關於打詐通茶網。我不知道這個部會官員聽到通茶網三個字會不會覺得自己也感覺到沒有做好。"},{"start":31645.236,"end":31674.478,"text":"那113年度整體花費1350萬做出來的版本不只是本席沒辦法接受全民都沒有辦法接受我相信部長也是不滿意我相信代署長也是不滿意整個操作的流程不夠直覺不易使用通報的功能也就算了那我們之前一直在提說這個裡面的這些內容全數收錄了這些詐騙集團的這些廣告不實的消息甚至還有連結甚至還有圖片"},{"start":31674.918,"end":31695.563,"text":"甚至還有盜用名人的肖像等問題甚至被收羅在政府官方的數位產業署網域底下某種程度也算是在幫SEO詐騙集團內容的SEO變成在抬轎我想這些問題全民都無法接受"},{"start":31696.323,"end":31712.276,"text":"那根據速發部提供的資料這個你們的預算提出的這個內容還有你們提供的資料預計12月底要完成2.0版本的修正那我想請問一下目前的進度怎麼樣打炸通財網2.0什麼時候會上線"},{"start":31713.877,"end":31723.985,"text":"二點零是不是就是正式的版本呢?不要到時候又說二點零又是一個內部測試的版本明年度的預算在這一塊編列了5806萬3000元會不會最後又用5000萬來測試又變一個測試版搞半天變成全民花大錢我這邊想要提醒一下部長"},{"start":31735.753,"end":31759.497,"text":"這邊你們是編了數位信任大概是3億那我不知道部長跟代署長知不知道11月我們又破紀錄了一個月的被詐騙金額124億一天一天平均4.2億所以我們一年的這個打詐的信任的這個預算在速發部這裡你們是主管單位尤其在電子電子通訊這一塊你們是3點多億"},{"start":31762.398,"end":31776.854,"text":"我是真的替你們叫屈喔那你們真的是這樣然後做那又做的不夠好我們當然用精兵政策也沒有不行但要做好所以我想接下來這個應該要非常注意執行的這個狀況那執行狀況裡面還有一點"},{"start":31780.285,"end":31807.146,"text":"依據資通安全法第3條的規定資通系統是用以收集、流通、刪除、儲存等等所以打砸通財網完全符合法規上面資通系統的定義那打砸通財網是由電腦工會和工研院得標這個就是我剛剛講的你們說要公司協力結果公司協力結果就是自己發給這個相關的單位那就算了你們又沒有明定說不能轉包"},{"start":31807.907,"end":31815.672,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":31835.424,"end":31863.504,"text":"因此外包人員不適用資安適任性查核我想這邊在場資安署的列席官員可不可以舉手站起來答覆一下資安系統外包人員的適任性查核是依據哪一條的規定如果你們連這種你們自己的法規都搞不清楚你們編這個預算有什麼用啊你們知道你們自己在做什麼嗎這麼離譜的情況之下我是不知道部長要怎麼解釋之前通查網我沒講啊到底有沒有白名單"},{"start":31864.676,"end":31867.219,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":31880.091,"end":31881.672,"text":"打詐資安署不用在嗎?外包系統有沒有資安問題?"},{"start":31896.283,"end":31923.43,"text":"因為資安署的預算處理完畢他們離開了那我們現在是產業署的預算那個我知道各位對這個問題很關心這邊簡單的回答我基本上我們在做工作就是跟所謂的詐騙集團在打戰那打戰我們當然需要工具所以那我才想說我們需要一個網路前端尤其是針對網路廣告平台像Facebook這種平台來做所謂的偵測所以才會去發展網路詐騙通報查詢網"},{"start":31924.77,"end":31940.674,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":31940.754,"end":31952.785,"text":"我們在這個案子這個通報查詢網還在run就是當初下載一萬兩千人還在run他到12月10號已經舉出就民眾用這個查詢網已經通報七萬七千多個詐騙網頁"},{"start":31960.111,"end":31990.111,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":31990.111,"end":32011.084,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":32011.084,"end":32027.278,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":32027.278,"end":32050.879,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":32051.119,"end":32072.984,"text":"至少被詐騙的人會少很多,這個委員放心,我們已經看到效果但是那個介面不好用,這確實在三個月做出來的東西,確實有這個可以improve的空間所以這個我們還在努力中,已經有一個版本目前是有improve,但是還在做內部的測試跟委員做,關於這個打詐通報查詢網目前做得很好要處理了"},{"start":32074.324,"end":32091.276,"text":"好,我們就來做處理了。那針對就是設計數位跨域應用與平台服務這個部分,提案委員案子很多,然後也都非常關心,然後也有提刪減案跟凍結案,那我們還是給予濁刪2000萬,然後凍結10%,提書面報告後,使得凍結,好不好?"},{"start":32100.803,"end":32118.332,"text":"原來這個是頭目啦我們這邊討論的是因為這方面的案子我們看到的都是不是說故意要收三不是故意要讓他們體現他們的業務我是說這個案子如果不是這案子我會提議說至少三到五千萬以上然後凍結15%因為這個案子其實"},{"start":32122.028,"end":32149.545,"text":"他最了解我老實講我們整個立法院113個人應該他最了解應該他算他們最了解但是變成說如果他無法解開疑惑的話變成說我們在這個產業上面的專業度還有了解度的話我們沒有辦法很公平公開的幫國人解釋這個是跟政黨政治無關這是跟國家的整個系統有關所以我在這邊會提議就是說三減五千萬之外然後凍結預算15%而且一定要專案報告"},{"start":32151.226,"end":32175.757,"text":"疑問要有專案報告不然的話其實他的問題不是不然問題是國人的問題打炸為什麼會失敗那為什麼會有這麼多不只是說一般民眾被打炸空瀑門也被炸到了那為什麼會這樣子那葛如君委員我想不只是我了解大家都了解啦也不只是我痛心大家都很痛心我相信部長也很痛心啦看到這個詐騙的數字節節升高"},{"start":32177.915,"end":32196.753,"text":"一個月124億部長您在產業待過您知道這124億來源是只有一萬多件的案件嗎你從產業的角度來看月營業額120幾億月營業額喔年營業額上千億然後呢每個月的用戶只有一萬多人啊"},{"start":32197.313,"end":32199.694,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":32214.281,"end":32234.234,"text":"在試用期間您有沒有自己去用這個通查網有沒有真的得到回饋這是第一個第二個新的2.0您有沒有自己去測然後呢您有沒有得到回饋第三個剛剛我提到的因為你們有一些專案就像您所說的外界沒有我們要自己做"},{"start":32234.594,"end":32256.852,"text":"那你自己做誰來做這件事情非常重要我一再的提醒你不要轉包再轉包包出去結果是那些集團的外包商在做那還得了我們不願意做過多的預測但是這個法條哪一條是要去做適用性查核部長很清楚而且我一再的去講說通查網1.0的問題不是介面的問題"},{"start":32259.574,"end":32283.812,"text":"是裡面對於使用者的肖像權對於資料儲存的隱私的問題、個資法的問題這不是界面好不好用UI UX所以部長您我希望您真切的了解這個問題才會理解我們為什麼對於您的預算的執行有這麼多的不安心啊好不好謝謝委員您的那個剛剛講的一些問題都已經處理掉了"},{"start":32284.372,"end":32309.159,"text":"那現在我講是說當然沒有錯我們剛出來的時候確實有些地方沒有完結比如說剛剛講說有人會上傳色情圖片那個完全是沒有在我們預想那個問題0有沒有用1.0你有沒有用1.0對你有沒有用絕對有用現在審理預算了好那我是說這個委員放心這個我有用然後也在測試也看到他在進來你們兩位都很專業啦我們都很清楚你們找個時間好好討論好不好所以"},{"start":32311.94,"end":32314.322,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":32326.487,"end":32351.062,"text":"我們動了以後去到那邊政黨協商對於你們是比較有幫助我們完完全全通通不刪我跟你講去到那邊會刪得更厲害這個我不是在我是良心的建議啦我們已經很和諧起的共識主席裁定的我們也都是尊重所以五千萬我認為不多啦"},{"start":32351.621,"end":32352.021,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":32380.302,"end":32384.083,"text":"第53案、第77案、第78案、第89案、第95案改主決議。"},{"start":32410.629,"end":32413.971,"text":"九十七案。九十八。九十九。一百一百零一一百零二"},{"start":32434.778,"end":32442.081,"text":"改書面報告。我們建議改的一個月內向交委會提出書面報告。我們這邊是不是能建議請這個改為一個月向交委會這邊提出書面報告。好。那102。103。這是要主要就是要"},{"start":32465.969,"end":32490.697,"text":"我們建議修改為執行成效於114年結束後一個月向立法院交委會提出書面報告我們建議修改為要求數位產業署將委辦及補助計劃執行成效於114年結束後一個月內向立法院交委會提出書面報告"},{"start":32491.797,"end":32491.817,"text":"104案"},{"start":32527.477,"end":32533.622,"text":"104剛跟委員報告就是執行成效於114年結束後一個月內向立法院交通委員會提出素面報告。我們是"},{"start":32544.411,"end":32545.952,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":32566.113,"end":32591.566,"text":"對阿我們會將委辦跟跟捐助的執行成效於114年結束後一個月內向立法院交委會提出就是林委員這邊是我們阿你們自己修阿你們也不講你修我同不同意就就那個"},{"start":32596.925,"end":32620.585,"text":"這我們再請次委員講你之前沒有去溝通嗎?都沒有去溝通?"},{"start":32621.069,"end":32643.411,"text":"有溝通嗎?有溝通跟誰溝通?跟誰溝通?啊?國立委員跟誰溝通?我說有去溝通我說你們就很喜歡這樣本來對你們預算啊就本來就支持啊看到你們這種態度啊實在有時候就誰跟你們溝通的?誰?誰跟我們溝通的?"},{"start":32644.548,"end":32660.213,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":32674.917,"end":32694.963,"text":"徵照辦理徵照辦理徵照辦理徵照辦理沒有修改了那103案就104案啦你就是要講我的修改OK好對那在這邊補充宣告就是7到8案簡列500萬元那科目自行調整20到21案就是凍結1000萬元科目名稱為獎補助費啦好好謝謝那"},{"start":32705.192,"end":32723.165,"text":"協商完成,作以下宣告。今日協商結論免予宣讀,授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄。委員要求提供之書面報告及相關資料,請相關機關尽數以書面答覆。如有委員對於提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報。"},{"start":32725.467,"end":32751.105,"text":"針對本日的會議作如下決議本日預算審查結果照列或照協商結論通過本日通過之決議文字授權主席及議事人員調整114年度交通部公路局及所屬國道公路建設管理基金資安署數位產業署預算均審查完畢請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議"},{"start":32752.466,"end":32758.828,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部公路基金-國道公路建二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":32778.677,"end":32780.923,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}