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04.088,"end":2131.88,"text":"改列約131079萬3千元,三節有公顧,列述四,通過決議五項。九、私立高級中等以上學校特長基金專案通過,另通過決議二項,則114年度行政法人國家運動訓練中心預算案審查完畢。依據審查報告,必須交給黨團協商,因為討論時由犯召集委員補充說明。審查結果如下,國家運動訓練中心114年度預算書案,照案通過。"},{"start":2133.513,"end":2150.49,"text":"八、通過決議十二項。四、114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案審查完畢明確審查報告不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由范召集委員予以補充說明。上加結果如下國家運動科學中心114年度預算數案 照案通過"},{"start":2151.15,"end":2169.277,"text":"通過決議九項。五、對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及達附部分請相關機關監事委處內答覆。六、在不影響文憶前提下受請議事人員因104年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商之範例整理。七、114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部"},{"start":2169.677,"end":2199.12,"text":"及所屬單位預算案教育部主管47所國立大學校園校務基金國立臺灣大學輻射醫院作業基金國立成功大學輻射醫院作業基金國立陽明交通大學輻射作業基金教育部所屬機構作業基金國立高級中等學校校務基金學產基金運動發展基金私立高級中等以上學校退場基金預算案行政法人國家運動訓練中心預算案及行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案全部審查完畢通過臨時提案二項宣布完畢"},{"start":2204.943,"end":2205.403,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2234.969,"end":2263.55,"text":"覆議案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第14次會議．事日程所列討論事項．繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關交易部及所屬單位預算案委員會針對交易部預算提案第63案之新增附帶決議所作決議提出附議並請隨即處理附議動議並您請修正為以下文字有關國家重點領域效績演"},{"start":2264.631,"end":2293.258,"text":"教學園區先導計畫自115年起建議應改由經濟部編列以避免排擠教育部預算並請教育部於114年度提出專案報告內容應包括該園區計畫之具體執行方式及如何活化南部產業發展與廣邀其他大學之參與如國立中山大學、國立成功大學等令高雄市政府、清大"},{"start":2293.718,"end":2305.778,"text":"陽明交大應提出在本計劃中更具體之承諾並應邀出席專案報告提案人范雲、張雅玲、連署人陳培宇、郭益晴、陳秀華、宣德婉"},{"start":2309.813,"end":2309.953,"text":"復讐案復讐案"},{"start":2333.424,"end":2349.972,"text":"我們今天的議程有四項,第一,繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案。第二,繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":2350.672,"end":2369.719,"text":"第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案。第四、繼續審查114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心文化內容策進院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案。"},{"start":2372.973,"end":2396.135,"text":"現在我來介紹在場的委員那其次我們來介紹與會的官員首先是林佩琦委員林千琦委員對不起林千琦看看大家有沒有專心注意第二個范雲委員第三個柯志恩委員第四個陳培鈺委員然後接下來郭育晴委員再來洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2397.928,"end":2423.646,"text":"陳秀寶委員我們在場委員都介紹過了那接下來我來介紹文化部今天列席我們介紹文化部部長李遠部長我們李敬慧次長王詩思次長徐怡君次長那其餘的我就不一一介紹那我繼續介紹是我們國家表演藝術中心我們郭美娟主任秘書"},{"start":2426.345,"end":2445.063,"text":"那接下來是文化內容刺激院蔡家俊董事長以及我們國家電影及視聽文化中心楚明仁董事長接下來介紹行政院主計總處公務預算處專委邱碧珠專委以及我們基金預算處王佩珊科長"},{"start":2452.619,"end":2458.61,"text":"我們現在要開始進行預算的審查討論的時候如果有新增或者修正文字之主決議那我們請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":2483.237,"end":2484.464,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":2494.128,"end":2494.428,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2535.28,"end":2541.788,"text":"各位我們一分鐘準備一下好不好因為大家面前資料很多而且要銜接上一次大家可以稍微看一下我們一分鐘"},{"start":2559.452,"end":2580.022,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":2587.481,"end":2615.419,"text":"各位委員我們上一次是審查到第五目的第二節現在是要從第二節開始了對我們上次是審查到165案大家看一下恢復一下記憶那現在呢我們開始審查從第五目第二節就是166案到177案那這一案好像沒有每個委員都有那就是要發言人的委員我們先舉手好了"},{"start":2617.125,"end":2633.899,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":2634.039,"end":2649.286,"text":"我們從166案到177案在第五目第二節好,我在169案這邊有提案那針對這個部分我先講一下我這邊是凍結30%那原因是第一個在我"},{"start":2655.228,"end":2678.346,"text":"看到公共電視的一些節目我覺得內容尚待加強而且沒有公共電視所應該有的責任也就是那個公共性跟公正性那雖然內容是從大家不同的角度來看但是確實有好幾個節目是需要再做更深度的一個檢討"},{"start":2679.987,"end":2691.996,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":2702.62,"end":2717.507,"text":"我先簡單談我第一個部分會凍結這樣子的額度的原因第二個部分是從12月12號櫃部來說明之後到12月16號我們第一次審查"},{"start":2718.227,"end":2739.622,"text":"我這邊已經提出了這個案文化部這邊也沒有任何的再說明所以也代表文化部可能對這個部分也沒有太大的意見所以我想我先簡單講到此更細節的部分我想不在這邊浪費大家時間我非常的認同我們這個教育委員會的另外一位教委范委員"},{"start":2740.783,"end":2746.83,"text":"所講的。我就精簡講一下我為什麼會凍結的原因那你們也沒有做相關說明我們就以這樣一個凍結書代表我這邊的一個意見。謝謝"},{"start":2753.807,"end":2758.691,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":2773.342,"end":2773.702,"text":"科技委員"},{"start":2793.615,"end":2818.214,"text":"來做一個更多的一個說明因為呢就資料的顯示11月15號我想這個李遠部長可能也是需要了解一下你應該知道11月15號火速的修改公式的一個投資的規定因為那時候就說戰股投資單位大概三分之二的一個限制我覺得這三分之二這個限制是創台時機眾人之志創台的元老他們的一種防弊的一個方法"},{"start":2819.034,"end":2839.418,"text":"那我覺得這為什麼要拿開這個安全法我覺得這個東西然後呢這個董事會到底有沒有好好的討論而且還要列為機密還要要求董事要來保密所以這個部分裡面我只能說不是不能夠讓公司是做額外但是公司的本業目前已經有這麼多就是說目前公廣集團已經有這麼多的一個所謂的一個虧損"},{"start":2842.819,"end":2844.02,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":2865.934,"end":2867.415,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":2890.623,"end":2897.449,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":2897.688,"end":2924.548,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":2927.22,"end":2952.239,"text":"接下來有提案的委員是,謝謝趙偉那我想我也先echo一下這個AI公司的事情我想各個單位要擁抱新科技要轉型我相信這個作為這個科技的角度來看都是鼓勵的態度但是實際上的細節希望說能夠已經有一些"},{"start":2953.239,"end":2979.559,"text":"可能初步的一些想法或成果也希望能夠有更細緻的呈現那我想大家也比較好評斷那第二個呢是我這邊有提案第170案是關於公視Plus這個臉書盈利那竟然之前有進到員工的私人帳戶的這件事那我想應該相關的官員跟同仁應該都了解到了但是因為這個時間很長到將近三年才被發現"},{"start":2980.64,"end":2984.541,"text":"此事件有否正式報告?此事件有否正式報告?此事件有否正式報告?此事件有否正式報告?此事件有否正式報告?此事件有否正式報告?"},{"start":3007.307,"end":3025.825,"text":"或者是各大平台當然也包含YT、Youtube等等到底有沒有多少是掛在員工的私人帳號底下盈利的機制的綁定有沒有問題有沒有做一次完整的清查也希望請相關部會首長還有同仁這邊要不要來做個詳細的說明"},{"start":3027.642,"end":3039.267,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":3057.954,"end":3060.076,"text":"變成簡體中文教學網站"},{"start":3068.786,"end":3097.749,"text":"好謝謝葛如玉委員再來陳佩玉委員好謝謝主席我的案子是有一個是幫賴會委員提的另外一個是我自己的171那我想台灣plus的問題之前大家都講過就不再多說在我171裡面我特別重視小公司的部分因為從使部長上任成立小公司之後其實我們除了對台灣的自治節目有期待之外我們也希望在相關產業人才或者是相關的議題如何扣合台灣青少年的需求或者是兒少的需求"},{"start":3098.029,"end":3121.357,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3121.477,"end":3136.944,"text":"用APP面對數位時代的兒少絕對是正確的做法但是它跟原本的APP的差異是什麼又或者是它跟一般民間產業公司的對於兒少訴求的APP差別又是什麼我們其實想要看到小公司更積極的說法跟論述"},{"start":3137.924,"end":3138.765,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":3166.021,"end":3186.562,"text":"好,這個部分我是173那我想那個台灣Plus之前其實有特別針對就是近期之內發生三件跟這個國際形象其實有一些爭議的一些內容那當然你們的解釋是已經下架了但是我想這個部分其實針對稍微比較有爭議的一些內容跟新聞"},{"start":3187.382,"end":3187.623,"text":"議員 陳秀寶委員"},{"start":3213.223,"end":3213.363,"text":"第172案"},{"start":3243.243,"end":3258.716,"text":"其實我們文化部我們監督公視的基金會我們應該要要求公視要積極直播節目來降低重播率來維持節目的多元性而且應該更積極地來辦理這個台語的推廣業務那文化部這邊你們有來說明你們說"},{"start":3260.658,"end":3281.85,"text":"公共電視台的自製比率有到88%所有播出時數的自製的比率也是77%但是你們這個說法跟它重播率這麼高我覺得這不是必然關係如果自製率很高但是節目產量很少那所以說台語台播放的節目就一直都是那一些重播率還是會很高"},{"start":3282.21,"end":3303.575,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3305.578,"end":3327.546,"text":"議員、區委員我這邊第168案,這個也是一樣啦,我們透過這個對公司基金會捐助我們很想了解公司到底有沒有隨便亂花錢,像之前有一個兒少台那時候我在質詢的時候有提到兒少台花了一千萬以上做logo設計"},{"start":3328.566,"end":3331.729,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3354.688,"end":3355.649,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3385.128,"end":3388.55,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3411.892,"end":3414.395,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3428.373,"end":3449.604,"text":"好謝謝那最後一位有提案的委員吳佩儀委員然後稍待洪孟凱委員好我的提案是174案就是關心公視的台語台因為我看到這幾年台語台其實針對我們台語的影視藝人才有很多相關的培訓課程但是這些專業的影視藝人才培訓課程上完課以後後續的追蹤跟媒合"},{"start":3450.064,"end":3473.294,"text":"甚至我們應該要跟大學有很多臺文科系來整合合作這個我希望公司可以臺育臺可以有更完整的規劃但是後來臺育臺有來跟我說明資料好幾次就是他們現在針對他們的像是主播啊然後配音班啊等等的人才後續有開啟一些追蹤媒合的計劃所以這樣我改成主決議謝謝"},{"start":3477.562,"end":3504.099,"text":"謝謝紅毛愷委員感謝本期特別提到其實還是一樣就我們好幾個委員都有提到是所謂的新創公司的部分那我也要echo一下我們萬美林交委的167案我們特別有看到這個胡董事長在12月3號我們等於是上一次詢答完畢之後你又再接受媒體的訪問並且用了一個標語叫做不願意再做坐在金山上的乞丐這樣的字眼"},{"start":3505.707,"end":3531.837,"text":"你的講法其實是說我們有很多的資源有很多的這個優勢但是沒有發揮也因此現在不管是公視不管是華視可能內部的士氣低落也因此說新興AI公司勢在必行但我們還是直指幾個點你沒有回答到第一你的這個新興AI公司到底未來要做的業務是以公視華視的業務為主還是你要在外面接其他的公司的工作"},{"start":3533.017,"end":3561.997,"text":"這一點其實是大家外界一直好奇嘛就是說你如果說你自己的本業是媒體是服務是做公眾服務的狀態的時候你去成立一家新興的AI公司你認為說這是一個解方是可以把坐在金山上的乞丐這個搖身一變從乞丐變成一般戶一般戶變成這個有錢人中產階級好那這樣子新興AI公司是你的強心針是你的解方那這樣子你不就是本末倒置了嗎我們的本業是做這個嗎"},{"start":3563.137,"end":3591.918,"text":"那如果說你是要做其他外部公司的工作的話那真的就本末倒置那如果說你是要做原本華氏或公司的資訊整合客服虛實整合的話那我們一直強調說那為什麼不能從內部裡面去做這樣子相關的一個運作組織你不用為了喝一瓶一杯牛奶而養一頭牛嗎你現在是要養一頭牛來為了只是擠原本的一瓶牛奶那不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":3592.739,"end":3616.093,"text":"那如果如同董事長在那個專訪裡面講的是因為現在內部的制度僵化以及可能比較沒有辦法培養好的人才吸引進來的話那就是管理的問題啊我很實在話講那我看起來這樣子就是管理的問題不能推給說這家公司當然華社也好公司也好它有過去的一個悠久的歷史但是"},{"start":3616.493,"end":3634.787,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3635.766,"end":3637.988,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3660.928,"end":3682.834,"text":"這一點我想也是商業界來講都那商業界的競爭有商業界模式但是我們現在討論的是華視是公視是相關是政府部門投資的補助的一個項目所以我想在這個部分上面還是以人民納稅權把關為原則跟優先立場以及我們還是希望如同剛剛葉元柱委員講的回歸到本業"},{"start":3684.626,"end":3700.175,"text":"華氏公司本業本職到底是什麼我想這應該還是要focus在所以請等一下董事長好好說明一下不然167案本期是完全支持怎麼突然被消音了"},{"start":3709.149,"end":3732.259,"text":"來來來我們鄭重澄清一下是因為沒有電池了好嗎沒有消音的問題我們繼續有電欸上面有80%的電奇怪總之就是好比較輕鬆一點啦就是167案等一下請那個好好說明以上謝謝好有沒有其他的委員要在這一幕裡面的補充陳貝域委員我的166先改組決議謝謝"},{"start":3737.358,"end":3754.802,"text":"那這樣的話那個因為我也有疑案我來做一點說明一下不過呢我是舉出很多的數字可能也請文化部稍微注意一下我看到其實我們在110年到112年之間我們決算的短處大概是在1億3到2億6之間那113年到114年那我們的短處是2億2到2億1之間如果我們扣除我們的權益法認列華氏投資的損失之後"},{"start":3767.085,"end":3767.986,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":3790.304,"end":3794.067,"text":"113年到114年的自籌收入也從預計3億4、3億2都不及110年度自籌金額的4億2所以我們從自籌比率在110年度的15.17%"},{"start":3807.797,"end":3825.043,"text":"下滑到114年度我們預計的7.12%我覺得從數字上面可以看得很清楚我們整個營運的績效是每況愈下所以呢今天有很多委員也有在關心也就是我們現在公共公視基金會跟華視的這一個所謂AI新創的這個合作"},{"start":3828.624,"end":3854.522,"text":"當然雖然預算是3000萬感覺這預算不是太多但是我想每一筆預算我們都必須是要嚴格嚴審的那如果說我們只是在著重公視還有華視的數位轉型其實是不是可以去從這個內部去引進AI的創新來增加營收那而不是剛才我們提出來在數字上面其實都不好看那這個本業的經營不佳那我們就去投資一些其實不是自己專業來做的"},{"start":3855.763,"end":3872.463,"text":"甚至於剛剛其實我們還聽到葉遠正委員講的有一些其他相關的這些收益的來源其實都是蠻需要文化部今天做進一步的解釋然後我們等一下再來處理到底今天就是這個簡列跟凍結應該怎麼做所以我想一下我們請文化部這邊來做說明"},{"start":3877.018,"end":3877.178,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3899.459,"end":3904.122,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3926.135,"end":3929.257,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":3955.772,"end":3980.151,"text":"謝謝各位委員的關心和指教因為時間的關係但我盡可能的就原則性的問題在四個部分做說明然後有部分再請徐總經理做補充那第一個部分就是特別提到關於新聞的公平性的部分或者是內容的多元還有在員工的操作這部分這都是我們董事會非常重視的所以在發生個案的時候我們董事會除了就這些相關的議題進行了解"},{"start":3982.881,"end":4004.155,"text":"除了這些部分進行了解之外我們事實上包括員工操守的部分我們董事跟監察人也參與了我們的這個調查所以整個作業完成之後在董事會都做相關的決議那我們這些決議除了對當事的個案比如說要求新聞內容的下架或者要求員工的這些懲處之外我們最重要的是訂定一個辦法"},{"start":4005.475,"end":4020.863,"text":"這個辦法對未來的部分都能夠加以處理以及加上專案集合進行整體的清查所以這一點可以請委員放心第二個部分關於國際媒體中心的部分跟委員說明國際媒體中心我們也謝謝文化部有部分經費的補助"},{"start":4021.783,"end":4022.483,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4039.913,"end":4056.888,"text":"第三部分關於大家最關心的比如說這個新創公司首先要澄清它不是AI新創AI新創是媒體賦予它的名稱我們對它來講它是一個新創公司主要經營三個業務第一個部分就是我們將來做的資料分析"},{"start":4057.388,"end":4073.799,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國"},{"start":4084.006,"end":4113.028,"text":"經過兩年多的研議那同時從今年的4月到今年的10月經過兩個集團裡面兩個成員多方的討論之後我們才確立下來那而且得到所有的董事跨黨派推薦的董事一致的支持所以這一點一定要跟委員做個說明第三個是這個是本業所以剛才有委員提到什麼保健食品那沒有那是華社我們並沒有在做保健食品我想可能是委員誤解了"},{"start":4113.768,"end":4132.916,"text":"對 沒有 我們沒有投資保健食品您可能誤解了那在這個部分來講我們認為數位轉型是本業不是業外這一點一定要跟委員報告然後接下來就是關於這個初期的部分在組織文化有委員關心那因為我們在我自己在大學也教了多年的創新創業的這個專題研究"},{"start":4135.437,"end":4149.723,"text":"事實上整個專業專業裡面很重要的一個關鍵成功因素在於組織文化與組織認知那這一點我們也特別跟施政榮施董上討論因為過去在宏基基本上都是以內部創業然後往外來在spin off"},{"start":4150.283,"end":4176.17,"text":"整個大家對於我們制度文化的了解知道這個組織跟一般的比較科技性的公司是很不一樣的所以在這個部分我們特別用外部創業的模式這外部創業模式就像我們過去的華氏文化公司一樣由於華氏佔51%的股份所以將來華氏的總經理就如同華氏文化公司他就成為華氏文化公司的董事長一切都有制度無論他換屆改組與否都是照這個制度來進行的"},{"start":4178.891,"end":4197.046,"text":"關於經費的部分我們都經過詳細的討論初期比較主要的營收因為公廣集團需要數位轉型需要資料分析這些部分業務有一部分會委託給這個公司來進行那我們同時也希望進行外部的營收的這種創新的可能"},{"start":4197.666,"end":4212.089,"text":"最後AI應用當AI模型成熟的時候才會把這個AI模型作為一個營收的主要來源所以它是有它的階段性這也跟各位報告那當然所有的整個作業都必須經過這個文化部的"},{"start":4212.89,"end":4239.173,"text":"投資管理辦法的審、同意然後營運計畫書也必須送文化部來這個同意那這個是我們的作業那雖然華視的部分已經通過了那我們還是在公司基金會的投資部分我們要遵行相關的法規來進行最後一個部分是華視的部分因為剛才特別我很關注我特別要說明因為我是兼任華視的董事長也就是公廣集團有一個非營利的公視"},{"start":4240.294,"end":4247.519,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4264.309,"end":4282.585,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4284.763,"end":4300.002,"text":"關於升息、光剛才講的利息支出去年比前年增加2600多萬各位委員都會算但是我們的經營成效在平均2.5億以下也就是這些增加我們仍然能夠讓它平均虧損降低在2.5億以下"},{"start":4301.203,"end":4301.603,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4319.82,"end":4320.52,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4333.513,"end":4333.613,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4355.913,"end":4378.746,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4378.866,"end":4379.686,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4393.894,"end":4395.076,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4409.735,"end":4429.053,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4429.48,"end":4450.009,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4450.009,"end":4470.862,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4470.862,"end":4491.647,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4492.688,"end":4513.486,"text":"還有音樂設計整體含貨是一千萬並不是一個logo就一千萬所以這邊再次跟大家做說明那如果需要補充報告的我們會隨時再提供謝謝我只有一句話對不起那個短處主要是華氏還有部分的它的虧損的認定實質上對公司基金會的營運是沒有關係它是帳目上的處理"},{"start":4518.817,"end":4543.426,"text":"科珍委員好我基本上我們還是要強調董事長在場委員您特別提到的要用任何的方法來減損這些虧損能夠在你剛剛我們所謂的AI你把它認為這是因為數位展型的一個本業我還是強調任何方法能夠協助華視從轉虧為盈我們都支持只是你的做法到底有沒有辦法真的達到這樣一個目標"},{"start":4544.787,"end":4567.619,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4567.759,"end":4591.458,"text":"因為為什麼媒體還有你剛剛已經證明了它不是一個新創它是你的本業那我只請問那為什麼若是本業然後在既有的公司人力部分裡面難道沒有辦法在這個過程當中做一些額外的管理把這些你可能要付諸於外面的增聘的人裡面用你自己的人力裡面在這裡面內部來做一個消化比如說"},{"start":4592.299,"end":4593.5,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4616.482,"end":4617.782,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4640.749,"end":4640.769,"text":"範圍委員"},{"start":4661.075,"end":4686.505,"text":"講這個AI應用大家都很關心因為華視擁有非常多的以前老三台時候的影像的確是金山那他我們最近我們也在講泰德等等的我想他如果免費被釋出雖然對全民是很好可是對華視來講的話其實就會是個營運上的損失所以我的想法是說你們這個方向我是支持的但是大家的疑問就是說"},{"start":4687.425,"end":4703.8,"text":"為什麼不在組織內而要弄個新創我自己對組織的理解是說你們可能是想到說人事或者是文化或者是薪水因為這些的人才顯然他的薪水的要求不會太容易我有看到胡董事長在跟媒體講的時候有說你們預估"},{"start":4706.963,"end":4714.148,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4736.084,"end":4758.1,"text":"人來你好,我們台積台的自治力其實是公共經濟裡面最高的,所以我們的重播跟委員的資料只有多少?我不知道到底是對大家出問題。就是說我們台積台的自治力、新治力其實是非常高的,所以那個資料不知道如何,所以我覺得可能有多少是不是要再討論一下。"},{"start":4762.076,"end":4762.616,"text":"我們的新資歷是超過50%,自資歷超過80%"},{"start":4780.382,"end":4780.882,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4801.237,"end":4801.637,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4822.91,"end":4841.47,"text":"委員我解釋一下我們現在電視台的部分因為我做過這個審查委員NCC審查委員大家的重播率平均都降到28億所以基本上第一台的重播率是算很少不過委員期待我們會盡量發表我們這個禮拜"},{"start":4843.933,"end":4864.957,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4865.037,"end":4865.277,"text":"議員主席主席"},{"start":4886.98,"end":4915.371,"text":"請你們務必不要遺漏在現場要說明如果在審查預算的時候連委員提出來口頭提出來對於案子對你們的疑問你們都不說明那這個預算恐怕真的沒有什麼好給的所以台長這個部分要修正那第二個呢這些資料看起來如果都可以透過說明那就應該順便資料趕快拿出來所以我想中午以前把這個資料拿委員會特別交給程修寶委員好不好那這個以上我想我們就來處理"},{"start":4916.912,"end":4917.814,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4933.479,"end":4936.382,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4955.16,"end":4977.278,"text":"因為這不是資訊科技人員的主場在這種影視業裡面其實現在電視公司普遍都有這個問題就是他沒有辦法在這樣的公司裡面作為他未來人生發展的一個舞台所以我們必須給他一個舞台所以這連我們在資訊科技業的為什麼說施政和施董事長都認同轉為外部創新因為這跟他過去在科技業做的是不太一樣"},{"start":4978.058,"end":4980.28,"text":"第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":4999.818,"end":5025.074,"text":"可是任何一個公司當我們都清楚在一個實際經營的當中它有很多的變數會出現但我們當然是做最可能的打算最好的一個計畫這些部分我想我們都可以實際的細節如果還有興趣的話我就很樂意再多說不過我知道在審預算案我想不方便再多做說明剛才有幾位提案委員這樣的說明你們可以接受嗎還是需要再補充"},{"start":5026.049,"end":5029.091,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5051.897,"end":5077.555,"text":"華氏的部分不是我們政府的預算就公司的部分我們補助啊我們這邊有補助對捐助預算是所以那我們同樣嘛那你這個沒有給我們的話我是在這個部分裡面有關於產值跟應用的計畫176裡面我沒有看到這個文字的資料你就是很就誠如我們剛剛所說你三年的這個大概的預估的這部分當然可以給我們做一個文字說明吧"},{"start":5078.035,"end":5078.215,"text":"二、繼續審查"},{"start":5098.367,"end":5125.118,"text":"我是要跟主委說明不是因為根據公視法有規定公視的不是啦你們今天不能這樣啦第一個講到短處你就說全部都是華氏虧的跟我公視沒關係那你有捐助嘛那現在講到說這個三千萬你們剛剛回答一個說啊其實我們算是本業不是非業外可是看起來也是也不是你們的本業嘛那再來現在大家希望有計畫你計畫也沒來那什麼通通去推這個這個華氏自己我覺得也不太好啦"},{"start":5125.738,"end":5127.921,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5147.466,"end":5171.228,"text":"所以我們現在討論的是有多少預算?因為部長現在范議員說要給五分鐘等他的資料來我可以啊但是五分鐘你的資料會來嗎?不是兩塊補充跟主席報告還有跟國務委員說明第一個我們的那個公視基金會裡面那個部分不是用明年度的預算喔"},{"start":5171.408,"end":5190.247,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":5190.287,"end":5193.489,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管文化基金附"},{"start":5215.743,"end":5241.701,"text":"所以我要跟各位委員報告是說我們是尊重法律跟流程不是不願意所以我們盡可能在可以的範圍內做說明而且預算不是用明年度編列的這個預算但是我們歷年累計因...你們歷年累計什麼樣的盈餘?現在不是還是虧損狀態怎麼會有盈餘?你在說什麼?那是資產負債可是董事長你這樣說法好像一副我們這邊閃的部分裡面你不能約束"},{"start":5242.261,"end":5262.961,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5263.101,"end":5289.888,"text":"我們當然我同意你現在我們下次討論對於公視基金會的捐助這基本上我們還是有權來了解我是不是要能夠捐助你這一筆錢那你是不是可以給我一張A4紙我們剛從頭到尾就講123你講了這麼多這個好像對於這個未來不管是你本業或是外業不管是創新或什麼之類的我總要了解一下我要給這筆錢我總要知道你未來可能可以發生到的一個狀況這是個很基本的門檻的是不是"},{"start":5292.449,"end":5319.928,"text":"董事長,這個跟你一個法例這樣子的條列一張A4的這個重點董事長可以把它拿出來嗎?可以寫出來嗎?那范議員委員,你想一下我是建議喔,因為我看那個董事長在金週刊上的訪問說得蠻清楚的你是不是就那裡面你說出來的話就是用一個A4紙的書面說明去準備一下這樣子大家就知道有一個方向了那裡面也講到金週刊的公開訪問啊"},{"start":5321.818,"end":5322.74,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":5340.078,"end":5363.591,"text":"其實我感受得到董事長的誠意他是非常尊重董事會的他不想要代為越權去做這樣子的先行公佈所以我覺得基於立法委員本與職責去做一個監督那我們也是希望把每一筆錢都看得很緊那能夠為民把關那不然這樣子好了我一個提議就是乾脆我們先凍結全數凍結等你董事會"},{"start":5364.211,"end":5377.247,"text":"都通過了再把營運計畫書拿給我們看一方面呢也尊重你們董事會也不會讓你覺得很為難那等到你們完全都討論完了營運方案那董事會都已經授權了你再拿給我們看再來解凍這樣子不是就好了"},{"start":5379.873,"end":5380.073,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":5410.093,"end":5410.474,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5440.958,"end":5441.34,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":5449.316,"end":5473.536,"text":"謝謝,我想先請教一下,所以我們現在這一幕是要等到下午吧?我就先針對我的啦先要處理我剛才一開始講有幾個法規上的問題其實你們先前沒有來跟我溝通那很多個案我很不希望在公眾場合去提個案但是我不認為你們今天能夠回應我的個案"},{"start":5474.196,"end":5490.249,"text":"所以我講的很直接,就是我之前送了,你們也沒有來溝通那這些有關於公示法、選罷法的相關法有可能碰到的個案我不方便在這邊提那所以我這邊其實直接提的是一個做法我就有一個動結數"},{"start":5492.651,"end":5520.125,"text":"這個是我提的做法然後第一個部分那個台語台不僅我認為績效很差然後我自己看到包括你們的語言系統我也是有很大的問題可是重點都是你們先前都沒有來溝通我也不認為在今天這個時間內能夠完全處理完我的問題所以那我們也沒有時間在這麼短的時間內呢你們給的東西我就直接要收直接要消化直接要接受"},{"start":5521.105,"end":5521.745,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":5542.711,"end":5542.911,"text":"陳培委員"},{"start":5560.709,"end":5586.156,"text":"我們來處理我想先問一下董事長跟部長這個不是說給你五分鐘什麼給你到下午其實今天在審查預算了你之前就應該要準備好了因為這個預算案都已經出來這麼久了過去我們其實在業務上面其實應該也熟人所以我請教一下你是需要多久的時間才能夠回覆今天我們在審查預算上所提出來的所有疑問"},{"start":5587.176,"end":5587.316,"text":"指揮委員的問題"},{"start":5598.523,"end":5626.197,"text":"基本上其實我們在之前大部分的問題都已經書面回覆了所以會有新的東西出來嗎?如果剛才特別在意的是那三年的部分的話我們可以來這個部分做一個原則性的處理不過我還是要請委員諒解他沒有經過董事會的通過我董事長做這樣的處理實際上是有點越權不過在我們盡可能的範圍內我們把那個基本的一個草案的資料給提出來那提這個要多久的時間?"},{"start":5629.526,"end":5629.967,"text":"議員主席議員主席議員主席"},{"start":5650.947,"end":5670.429,"text":"報告主席,不好意思,那我已經等了至少兩個禮拜了,從送出去到現在已經差不多一個月了,我已經等了很久了,那我今天沒有辦法等,我就針對我的部分,那通過,通過,你們用的部分嘛,那我的你是完全沒有來溝通過,那我說個案又不好在這上面提。"},{"start":5674.423,"end":5700.794,"text":"我們資料等一下就可以具體完整都可以再給林委員不是董事長你為什麼都要在這樣子的時間點才要具體的完整的去給委員呢那事前不能夠去做一些說明然後該準備的資料去準備嗎就是現在我們提出來不管是呃華氏的這個事情或是林倩琴委員關系的相關案件都要到這個時間節骨眼了你才要把資料提出來我不明白為什麼要這樣子欸沒有辦法接受你現場要我就接受欸"},{"start":5704.278,"end":5705.439,"text":"我們休息五分鐘。"},{"start":5984.773,"end":5985.217,"text":"這個訊號被干擾就對了"},{"start":6056.954,"end":6061.637,"text":"這兩週我沒有時間嗎?上個禮拜四禮拜五不是我沒有時間不是我沒有時間你幫他排過幾場了我跟你說委員會沒有時間你們不要這樣講"},{"start":6074.384,"end":6084.07,"text":"各位委員還有文化部各位同仁我們準備一下我們回來繼續審查我們第五幕第二節的部分"},{"start":6104.565,"end":6104.725,"text":"主席"},{"start":6111.599,"end":6113.841,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6136.476,"end":6156.527,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6156.847,"end":6179.895,"text":"這也是我們在這一屆當中其實第一次的預算的審查我們很多的委員其實對於文化部其實非常關心也支持所以很多的細項我們都必須要去了解才能夠來予以支持所以剛剛林倩琦委員的部分我是希望你們該補書面資料要補書面資料還有以後包含我們每一個委員所提出來的"},{"start":6180.555,"end":6183.897,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6196.764,"end":6214.613,"text":"任何一個委員要的資料請你們第一時間要去溝通要去給予絕對不要到現在要處理預算才來在明年度的時候我要拜託這個部長跟我們同仁說明一下所以現在針對第五目第二節的部分預算數的凍結跟減劣的部分各位委員有什麼意見我剛才提出來就是我這邊列的就是30%嘛"},{"start":6222.32,"end":6222.52,"text":"議員議員主席"},{"start":6235.408,"end":6259.117,"text":"這個數字讓我驚嚇我覺得我們好不容易在去年公視法修如果我沒有記錯嘛那個時候主席跟柯真委員也在我們好不容易打開那個公共電視預算天花板然後我們希望讓相關的預算可以支持台灣自己的公共電視節目那我認為這個預算的凍結數實在是不恰當了那可不可以大家再討論一個彼此都可以接受的說法好不好"},{"start":6259.517,"end":6260.377,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6288.812,"end":6306.456,"text":"陳秀寶委員你堅持500我剛剛有聽到對那我還是要講一下主席說的對其他委員的這個金額我們是不介入那我會希望說他應該要提供給我的資料我在這邊講一下我要什麼就是說對於我們的我們每個禮拜我們都會有播出的時段"},{"start":6313.558,"end":6337.773,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6337.893,"end":6338.033,"text":"議員主委人"},{"start":6359.13,"end":6375.131,"text":"我是覺得我這邊是凍結一億啦因為我認為我們不是不支持公視但是公視每一次來答詢的時候講話都模擬兩可然後我自己要那個資料是有給啦但都給的文字並不是講得非常的清楚那凍結並不是三"},{"start":6376.172,"end":6388.12,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立"},{"start":6405.35,"end":6405.93,"text":"請部長來回覆一下"},{"start":6433.285,"end":6448.609,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6448.789,"end":6450.711,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6469.224,"end":6469.304,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":6487.783,"end":6490.065,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部"},{"start":6513.462,"end":6513.642,"text":"主席"},{"start":6536.894,"end":6559.74,"text":"謝謝主席,也謝謝部長剛才的說明我之前堅持的就是這或許是我很想了解為什麼你們會有困難的議題但是在先前我不知道為什麼有那麼困難來讓我針對你們的書面所有的問題來做說明或者是溝通這是第一點第二點"},{"start":6562.694,"end":6566.738,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":6587.363,"end":6615.964,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6617.265,"end":6619.787,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6647.267,"end":6652.29,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":6673.106,"end":6673.186,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":6697.3,"end":6722.16,"text":"結構性的解決,否則的話我們會每一年每一年會一直糾在這個它的虧損那麼嚴重,因為18年來都無法解決的問題,它就是一直虧損我們必須用結構性的問題來解決,我希望各位委員了解,就是說我們可以來一個專案報告一起來討論如何解決這個公視華視的整個結構性的問題那去年已經把公視的天花板打開,因為公視的18年來"},{"start":6724.935,"end":6743.533,"text":"公司不斷的膨脹加了很多頻道,凍結我願意接受凍結一個數字我們再來報告好嗎?然後不要再剪裂,為什麼?因為胡董找過我很多次他的預算非常不夠,他怎麼算給我看都是不夠所以希望大家不要再把他剪裂,但是凍結一千萬怎樣?"},{"start":6748.68,"end":6766.592,"text":"我們再來報告嘛阿如果錢不夠為什麼可以放一千萬去做一個LOGO然後講不出來效益不過不是一千萬一定是你直接講一個數字其實算蠻複雜的他絕對不是那樣的那是什麼阿那是什麼阿喔那我剛剛已經回答了剛剛那個總經理對對對但是講的我還是不清楚阿他總體的總經理剛剛有解釋你那個效益在哪裡嗎效益到底在哪裡剛才有講過"},{"start":6781.025,"end":6805.188,"text":"報告委員因為他這個案子他其實除了他的那個logo之外他整個識別設計還有他有五個頻道代表角色口袋小子他總共有五個角色這個角色其實現在已經做了非常多的這個識別頻道形象還有音樂jingle還有每個月的提示卡他是整套的CIS他要做非常多的東西包括音樂設計他光這個頻道形象的30秒他就是一整個動畫"},{"start":6806.169,"end":6822.312,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6823.224,"end":6846.617,"text":"你拿到之後然後你後續真的會有什麼產值嗎?會有什麼效益嗎?還是錢花下去之後又沒有了?當然這個錢花下去你一定有一些產品出來可是這個產品你拿到這個東西的效益是什麼嗎?我覺得我不知道為什麼要做這件事啦他可以為這個頻道行銷推廣而且製造認同像我們最近辦的活動"},{"start":6848.22,"end":6866.817,"text":"我跟你講我們光一個活動我們贈送口袋小子的禮包馬上就是幾萬的這個我覺得公司現在的問題就是感覺花很多錢好像做很多事但大家都沒有什麼感覺請你們拿出你們具體的成果效益評估給我們看一下"},{"start":6868.238,"end":6893.525,"text":"謝謝,我想我因為我一直在處理凍結數,我還是請部長直接再做一下說明好不好?我再提高凍結數3000萬,然後不要剪裂我們,然後我們專案看書面報告等等,因為我剛剛一直講到這18年來的那個結構是非常,要同情華視也同情公視,希望你們支持我們,我們凍結3000萬好嗎?然後不要剪裂,然後專案報告等等。"},{"start":6894.178,"end":6912.221,"text":"市長現在不是我們知不知的問題是大家拿那麼多錢給公視嘛那公視把錢花下去了我沒有說你們怎樣人文部長我沒有說我現在講的是說你錢都把它花下去了但到底拿到什麼效益大家其實都是在講這件事情嘛那到底效益是什麼我覺得要舉出來就是"},{"start":6912.782,"end":6934.421,"text":"到底補助這個錢到底達到什麼東西你花一千塊做這個logo你說弄很多小子什麼IP好啊對有啊然後呢這些東西有什麼效益嗎他後續到底幫我們影視產業貢獻什麼或者是說公視幫出存在目的是要製作一些優良頻道或節目那這個節目到底是影響了什麼或什麼我覺得這個東西我們真的很抽象啊都看不太到啊"},{"start":6936.96,"end":6964.131,"text":"部長,我覺得您要不要再回復一下,讓葉子偉能更清楚一點嗎?其實我們不應該卡在那個LOGO,因為小公司的成立很不容易,然後成立之後會,最大改變是讓台灣的所有製作公司願意做合同節目,這點才很重要,因為合同節目要富裕個一兩年,所以LOGO本身,我承認您剛才講的錢是什麼,但是小公司能夠成立,然後激發台灣所有製作公司可以做合同節目,這點還是真的比較長遠的。"},{"start":6965.231,"end":6975.501,"text":"希望各位委員支持我們這樣子因為我們公管集團每一步踏出去都是蠻不容易的包括小公司這件事情好嗎我們剛才講說凍結3000萬"},{"start":6979.829,"end":6985.113,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7006.366,"end":7031.304,"text":"部長您先請坐,你先請坐,沒關係我是怕大家看不到我啦那個慶幸委員還有就提議一下我們那個可以平衡一下啦齁那我所有的提議這邊那就八千祝福你們能夠發起來好不好八千那葉元智委員沒有簡列部長是希望不要簡列啦那但是尊重每位提案委員什麼什麼"},{"start":7033.188,"end":7052.922,"text":"專案報告解凍,不檢列是不是?所以大家都不要檢列喔?所以大家都覺得公司做得這麼好?不是,他沒有缺錢,他是把錢亂花。我覺得要有效益啦,我覺得做這個事情真的要有效益啦。他解釋了你聽得懂?什麼數據都沒有。對啊。"},{"start":7059.821,"end":7060.461,"text":"五千好嗎五千五千好嗎因為"},{"start":7078.792,"end":7079.692,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構"},{"start":7100.382,"end":7128.184,"text":"好 那這樣子好不好那個 這個部長也就是很誠懇的就是在拜託大家但重點是我們都支持部長也支持文化部那我再重申一次主席真的覺得我們所有的委員啊都必須要被文化部的每一個人尊重所以未來我們所提出來的東西不管我們口頭關心的或者我們已經提案了這更嚴重我們已經提案的拜託第一時間一定要到各委員辦公室去說明"},{"start":7129.105,"end":7146.517,"text":"資料一定要來,下一次在審查預算的時候,絕對不要到桌上補資料這幾點我覺得很重要,這一定要做到那我想我們的簡列數如果就以我們不要簡列然後凍結數5000那但是明年一定要專案報告才能夠解凍,這樣好不好?好,那我們就在第二節的部分,我們不簡列然後凍結5000萬"},{"start":7154.824,"end":7155.144,"text":"改組決議166案、174案"},{"start":7176.345,"end":7188.134,"text":"接下來我們進行到第6幕第6幕我遵循一下我們現場委員我們之前已經有達成共識要用一節一節來審但是如果是用節來審的話我們是到205案但是後面其實還有一個第2節大概是4案要分開也可以要合在一塊也可以你們有沒有意見"},{"start":7199.09,"end":7227.222,"text":"那如果只有4案的話是不是剩餘的部分的話一二集我們一起處理好不好先一合在一起啊不是第6幕的第6幕現在第到209就從178到209好不好好那如果沒有問題的話第6幕我們現在從178到209案我們從後面剛才是前頭那就是張雅琳委員"},{"start":7232.788,"end":7257.157,"text":"我的案子是185案那185案主要是針對說我們現在轄下的博物館呢並沒有達到常設展都有台語翻譯跟台語約導覽這也是民眾一直有在跟我陳情的部分那尤其是說今年指定了四座生活美學館作為台語基地可是呢在現場的展覽上面也沒有搭配母語的翻譯所以我想這個部分還是要持續的改善不過因為後來呢"},{"start":7257.517,"end":7262.159,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7274.725,"end":7299.125,"text":"文化部有來溝通說因為這些選屆讀物都是業者自行報名的所以他很難要求業者來報名魔語讀物可是呢文化部在107年的時候是有訂立一個語言友善環境及創作應用與推廣補助作業要點鼓勵出版業者和作者創作魔語讀物所以我認為這是可以接受的替代方案但是因為我覺得這個要點已經6年了"},{"start":7300.191,"end":7302.032,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7315.902,"end":7322.545,"text":"190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案金曼獎190案"},{"start":7336.53,"end":7358.96,"text":"我不反對其他領域的傑出作品、跨足漫畫但是我看金漫獎的成立簡介裡面有提到說這是要促進台灣漫畫之一原多用並推廣台灣原創漫畫家及漫畫作品也就是說漫畫原創本身才是金漫獎應該要鼓勵的目標那這個和今年的名單其實有點不太一樣"},{"start":7359.94,"end":7360.54,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":7378.77,"end":7385.676,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7400.336,"end":7401.957,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":7421.502,"end":7435.992,"text":"所以這個上面有一點點誤差但是當時沒有人要修正不過後來也有來修正所以這個部分我就不堅持了那還是希望說中央社會未來還是要落實事實查核的部分那這部分我不堅持我改組決議謝謝好謝謝雅琳那議員主委員陳秀寶委員"},{"start":7446.016,"end":7472.246,"text":"謝謝主席在這一幕裡面我有四個案子我先說一下第184案是幫吳麗華委員共提的所以這個先改組決議那在第182案的部分是關於我們的這個能夠推廣的業務裡面根據新聞指出台德模型有導入中小學的台語教學而且在本土語言課程裡面來應用有助於學生進行本土語言的對話交流"},{"start":7473.627,"end":7496.565,"text":"那文化部這邊是我們國家語言發展的主責機構之一應該要密切的來協助國科會來充實這個泰德模型的語言資料庫那這個部分文化部裡面有來說明就是說對於語料數位研發議題會持續跟國科會這邊密切的合作那我也希望說文化部在國家語言發展中心成立之前"},{"start":7497.425,"end":7514.122,"text":"應該先做相關的規劃事項尤其是舊台特在本土語言傳承這個運用的部分來進行研議那之後呢我們在國家語言發展中心成立之後就可以很順利的來推廣那這個案子我可以改成主決議那第188案的部分"},{"start":7515.123,"end":7518.346,"text":"是關於出版人才培育以及獎勵出版的相關業務根據2022至2023台灣文化內容產業調查報告指出我國紙本圖書出版品營業額持續衰退2022年出版端已經比2021年衰退8.22%市場端也衰退3.25%"},{"start":7537.944,"end":7539.265,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7565.845,"end":7566.745,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7587.075,"end":7587.555,"text":"產業營業額也要訂定相關指標來檢視相關成效。"},{"start":7603.9,"end":7607.163,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7622.728,"end":7643.861,"text":"已經面臨很有明確危險的傳承危機本土語言台語業務分散於文化部及教育部而且文化部主要推動台語業務的單位是在人文及出版司沒有一個專責的單位來推動相關的這些發展的業務我也很希望說文化部應該要積極的籌設國語"},{"start":7648.764,"end":7671.718,"text":"國家語言發展中心這些業務而且一定要針對不同的年齡階層所需來制定不同的台語推廣的方案那我要問你們這邊來說明是說目前有多管道來辦理台語的這個附贈業務例如說台語說故事爸媽活動或是說故事講師的培訓以及台語翻譯國外經典作品台語"},{"start":7672.718,"end":7696.51,"text":"具本創作及支持台語的網路影音等等這邊我也很肯定文化部以多項的政策來復正台語但是我剛剛提到就是說文化部應該要針對不同的年齡層推出適合他們的方案讓我們的台語復正業務可以更加順利而且我非常希望文化部這邊應該要成立台語專責單位的這個"},{"start":7699.972,"end":7700.972,"text":"單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7724.137,"end":7724.258,"text":"專門負責相關業務。"},{"start":7735.92,"end":7739.343,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7755.874,"end":7772.849,"text":"但是其中至少有兩個端在生產端跟通路端都有些問題生產端部分的話有大概15.38%的受獎助的創作者沒有完成媒合沒辦法出版那通路端就是輸電部分有很多輸電他是在"},{"start":7774.384,"end":7793.128,"text":"受到補助之後的5年內停業或解散所以這個計畫我覺得還有精進的空間因此呢我這邊是提出凍結500萬然後希望文化部可以針對過去推動這個計畫所面臨到一些問題跟解決方案提出書面報告然後再解凍好謝謝圓芝然後沛逸有案子嗎好那武春城委員"},{"start":7803.737,"end":7828.672,"text":"我是189案,針對出版事業致福島。主要是針對現在聊天機器人GDP,這個不僅非常容易上手,而且在幾秒鐘之內就能夠產出一篇文章。不禁讓人擔心這種深層式的AI會對出版業帶來很大的衝擊。"},{"start":7831.013,"end":7843.63,"text":"那讓那個低品質的書籍湧入市面而且到了侵權的一些種種的問題那應該對出版業現在都被感到威脅"},{"start":7845.083,"end":7863.81,"text":"那雖然這個AI的崛起會為這個數位出版業帶來無限的可能但同時也會帶來一系列的挑戰跟衝擊如何在AI還有人文原創之間找到平衡點來確保出版業的永續發展"},{"start":7865.33,"end":7869.073,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":7890.948,"end":7904.976,"text":"正對黑暗技術對出盤內的衝擊來跟各方研商應對的對策提出報告然後到這個教育委員會來但是這一個我也可以同意改組決議"},{"start":7911.056,"end":7931.335,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請郭育群委員這一幕當中我是195跟203那195的這一個部分呢NOMO想這個方案其實是出版產業的一個振興方案有編列一些預算那我們知道這個日本知名的一個連鎖的書店其實在台灣已經連續在展店當中"},{"start":7932.676,"end":7959.762,"text":"但是這個方案從106年到113年補助實體的書店381案但受補助5年之後歇業跟解散總共有9案雖然有來我辦公室有說明就是實體的書店其實有在增加也有成長的一個趨勢但我想這個部分文化部是不是應該要進一步的去了解這個受補助的書店營運不善的一個原因"},{"start":7960.582,"end":7962.804,"text":"並且要檢討外國書店來台展店營運計畫提升實體書店營運效率及能見度這部分凍結金額200另外在205"},{"start":7982.462,"end":7984.923,"text":"203年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8012.515,"end":8039.472,"text":"這四種語言其實流失率也高達了大概將近有五成那這個預算這個地方有一個表列我們看到是這個民東語跟原住民語的師資的人力是不到一那這個部分是不是可以請這個文化部既然有編的這個人文文學跟出版業推廣當中向下的一個成立國家語言發展研究中心有特別編列這個預算是不是也請這個部分"},{"start":8039.972,"end":8042.886,"text":"看是人力怎麼補足、失賠的部分要怎麼補足。以上"},{"start":8045.031,"end":8072.35,"text":"好謝謝玉琴那有請陳培玉委員好謝謝主席在這一幕我是178然後還有183那178主要全部都是跟出版有關我就一併的說明第一個是關於創新書室的部分在史哲部長上台之後提出了這個創新書室的建議那到現在已經第二年了我們其實都沒有看到文化部有沒有相關的檢討但是相關預算仍然在執行甚至有新編列預算"},{"start":8073.431,"end":8095.753,"text":"但是確實雙新書市它集合了也召喚了很多可能原本不進獨立書店的人剛剛非常多委員都非常關心獨立書店我身為一個倒掉獨立書店的老闆我非常感謝各位委員但我要說不管是創新書市或者是獨立書店其實如何讓台灣的讀者願意持續跟書做交流我覺得這才是文化部最重要的任務之一"},{"start":8096.494,"end":8098.796,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8117.034,"end":8139.919,"text":"那不枉台灣都是翻譯簡介可是其實我們看到國外很多的做法是逐年累積權益本也就是如果一年20本10年就會有200本那相關的權益本其實對於做版權交易才是最重要的當然以國家的預算來支持這件事情我認為我們應該還是可以有一些角色尤其是今年我們還有一本書得了美國全美圖書獎我相信這件事情是重要的"},{"start":8140.299,"end":8141.641,"text":"獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版獨立出版"},{"start":8155.999,"end":8182.349,"text":"接下來是漫畫輔導金的部分其實逐年獎勵非常非常多從有億的數字到現在只剩下千萬的數字但是我認為漫畫的讀者越來越多漫畫的創作者也越來越有活力希望相關部門還是可以給予支持那接下來就是盜版的部分上次我也跟部長說你的作品也是盜版業者非常喜歡的作品那相關盜版的業務其實跟速發部合作我們可以有更積極的作為"},{"start":8183.854,"end":8202.978,"text":"接下來我想要談類型文學創作這幾年在國際市場上不管是我們翻譯其他國家的作品或者是我們台灣的作品往外溢其實類型文學是非常重要的一種文學典範的可能性但是台灣對於相關類型文學理解都還是適用於舊的法規那我們認為有很多事情其實可以再更加積極"},{"start":8204.239,"end":8230.498,"text":"還有今天文化部在新部長您上任之後你提了一個繪本新秀獎那相關的配套相關政策執行相關的利益迴避我們也希望文化部自己可以更加精進細節我們今天已經討論過我就不再細說接下來關於首爾書展明年是台灣為主題國我不知道目前我們的規劃進度跟相關策展單位還有策展細節我希望明年在首爾書展的時候不管那個時間是什麼我都很希望真的可以讓"},{"start":8231.298,"end":8259.047,"text":"全世界要去參觀首爾書展的人都看見台灣的文化力接下來是圖書折扣秩序制其實已經講了10年文化部也有相關的政策研究可是我們認為幾次文化部對外的發言都不是中立的立場我認為可以更加積極的討論尤其剛有非常多委員關心我們有這麼多補助但是為什麼整個出版產業在下降這個產值接下來電子書祭祀借閱的部分相關問題我們已經提醒過文化部了就是有沒有業者他自己"},{"start":8260.741,"end":8264.903,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8289.116,"end":8307.973,"text":"所有台灣人文化認同一個重要的基礎之一不管是影視還是出版甚至有非常多影視作品都是來自於出版業如果我們台灣一直要喊著影視要學韓國那不要忘記韓國將近一半以上作品改編都是來自出版業但如果台灣只重視影視業不重視文化出版業我覺得我們會本末倒置"},{"start":8309.333,"end":8329.404,"text":"183的部分是人文司的國家語言的部分有非常多委員都談了關於台語的部分我也希望我們在台語或是其他母語的部分我們都可以平均的讓相關的單位或相關的機構他們在做相關業務的時候是得到國家的支持因為我們有國家語言發展法甚至我們國家語言發展法裡面還明定"},{"start":8329.884,"end":8347.358,"text":"希望2026年可以有臺語、客語、原住民與家庭各5萬戶的目標因此我們不管是在友善環境的部分、家庭計畫的部分、縣市教學的部分、相關活動辦理的部分,我認為我們還有更多可以精進的地方。我就一併說明以上,謝謝。好,謝謝培餘。那有請葛如君委員。"},{"start":8349.327,"end":8372.418,"text":"謝謝召委本席第194案是關於打擊網路盜版的問題確實出版業真的我們一定要予以照顧本席在10月30號就有質詢當中提出網路盜版問題其實扼殺了很多電子書產業的成長質詢過後以後了解到文化部有函請速發部制裁局跟內政部警政署刑事局提供資料"},{"start":8372.978,"end":8401.01,"text":"那也理解到在113年的11月29號有召開相關的會議針對這一點本席予以肯定不過文化部在回覆當中有提到盜版網站尤其是這些盜版的電子書如未經授權而進行販售向公眾傳達客觀上錯誤不實訊息使人誤以為正版而購買細數詐欺犯罪著作權律師建議以詐欺處理這都是quote你們的回覆"},{"start":8401.69,"end":8427.011,"text":"那依詐欺犯罪危害防治條例請速發部協助停止解析網站。針對這一點呢我想請教一下文化部有沒有確認過這樣的做法是不是可行這樣的做法是不是確認有沒有跟速發部來了解是不是把出版業的盜版跟打詐綁在一起這樣的做法甚至針對盜版網站要予以封網"},{"start":8428.112,"end":8454.579,"text":"這個我想還是要確認一下文化部這是你們的方針嗎?我想詐騙跟盜版其實是兩回事如果用打詐的名義來處理盜版的問題這很可能是全球獨步未來有可能還會侵害更多的自由這一點我想要確認一下否則方向不清我們在這邊編這些預算執行上也會出問題那另外也echo一下我們剛剛這邊這一案提到的是盜版"},{"start":8455.419,"end":8483.432,"text":"但是呢因為深層市的AI在各國都有出現盜名的問題就是剛剛有提到部長您也是非常這個這個算暢銷也知名也是我們非常倦勇的這個作者那也可能開始像國外會出現一些知名作家的名稱作者的名稱被盜用裡面寫的風格可能比小野還像小野但事實上很可能是AI那這樣子的一個做法"},{"start":8484.172,"end":8486.474,"text":"事由：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及所屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":8513.444,"end":8534.64,"text":"那請問我們的出版業我們的文化產業有沒有針對這樣的一個狀況來予以做一些事前的討論那我想這樣子的議題呢應該都在我們的預算的規劃當中是要有一些清楚的說明否則我想這樣的預算在做業務的推廣或出版業的這個振興上面我想這可能會有一些缺漏謝謝"},{"start":8536.462,"end":8538.463,"text":"187、193兩案都跟出版有關,我希望我的發言可以得到小野部長非常重視,因為他是個多產作家。"},{"start":8552.228,"end":8553.169,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部基金附"},{"start":8577.74,"end":8583.604,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8595.472,"end":8597.013,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8625.892,"end":8626.152,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8655.692,"end":8655.892,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8672.159,"end":8674.38,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8695.492,"end":8698.815,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8711.707,"end":8712.587,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8728.652,"end":8729.672,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8754.764,"end":8755.344,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8779.901,"end":8782.203,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8805.669,"end":8806.049,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8820.945,"end":8821.306,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8837.506,"end":8863.529,"text":"那其實在去年5月文化部就跟公平會有合作辦理出版產業聯合行為例外許可規定及申請程序說明會那文化部也有說會是出版業者申請聯合行為例外許可的意願那來適時給予協助那想既然如此待會想請文化部說明一下那今年10月公平會開法的脈絡那另外出版業"},{"start":8864.87,"end":8869.751,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":8892.917,"end":8910.205,"text":"謝謝張偉還有各位同仁在這一幕裡面我有幾個案分別是198、199、208、209我先簡單談一下198文化部我就念一下你們的回應其實還是一個整體的問題你們真的有11個單位、11個案至少"},{"start":8913.266,"end":8928.473,"text":"沒有來跟我說明所以你們先看看你們在198這其實本來不是我那麼重要的一個重點但是我只是希望了解一下你們在保護出版文化內容原創力的部分做了些什麼那你們就跟我說擴大電子書計次借閱還有優化圖書採購是相互搭配所以電子書有多少借閱平台然後叫政策上路前70%"},{"start":8940.638,"end":8941.098,"text":"實體書店創新書市實體書店創新書市實體書店創新書市"},{"start":8964.793,"end":8965.013,"text":"獎金獎金獎金獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎�"},{"start":8987.057,"end":9012.022,"text":"所以我又不太確定你們到底回應了我什麼問題所以這個問題我們就先保留希望未來我能夠你們能夠針對我這個有關於出版內容這個原創歷你們到底做了些什麼仔細的回應好那接下來是199案199案這邊我有提出一些問題但是我想先了解請問一下今年國家語言發展"},{"start":9012.802,"end":9023.002,"text":"的幾場會議從7月開始的那一場會議本來應該是8場後來有10場我想知道總經費是多少這是第一個然後第二個"},{"start":9025.685,"end":9048.685,"text":"這個你們也是沒有來跟我溝通但是你們在其他單位來跟我溝通的時候其實我也反映過這是我非常重視的一個議題因為我不知道到底那個文化部這邊是什麼狀況跟什麼問題我們在其他各部會發生的有關於語言的問題其實都指向你們因為你們現在是主管單位嘛不管現在是你們所講的這個我們未來還要再討論的閩南語、台語"},{"start":9051.391,"end":9058.216,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9076.388,"end":9102.643,"text":"可是這個問題應該次長有參與嘛在內政委員會討論了很多那我不知道你們是就這樣子充耳不聞還是我們只要在講台上講完了就沒事了這件事情請今天一定說明清楚所以第一個問題是這十場會議總經費是多少然後第二這十場會議的名稱是就依據你們跟各單位發文的名稱然後就直接叫我們要接收嗎"},{"start":9104.037,"end":9109.14,"text":"第三、請問你們對2021年全國語言會議的結論還有2024年全國語言會議你們直接用的名詞的差異你們了解嗎?請回應我這三個問題"},{"start":9120.759,"end":9136.664,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9137.176,"end":9137.496,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9158.404,"end":9166.113,"text":"181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181案181"},{"start":9174.684,"end":9190.042,"text":"我想推廣國家語言法、發展法我們都希望在發展本土語言能夠有更具體的作為我想之前也有其他的委員對於這一個部分是抱持著希望能夠更精進、更具體"},{"start":9190.683,"end":9193.205,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9217.841,"end":9221.045,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9232.691,"end":9234.232,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":9252.008,"end":9255.051,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9271.65,"end":9272.171,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9287.751,"end":9302.395,"text":"包括基準損傷以及行動障礙不便的一些團體是沒辦法在這個場內能夠有更友善的一個設施那都有抱怨我想這個國辦館應該要給予更具體的一個改善"},{"start":9305.456,"end":9330.311,"text":"那所以這邊我有提凍結那另外我也要再提到就是說我們對國慢館的一些實際的作為其實我有跟這個台中市的一些漫畫協會公會有在做討論那他們也有提到包括時下很新穎的像日本都有這樣類似的一個創舉就是非常大型大型的一個轉蛋店能夠進入到國慢館"},{"start":9330.811,"end":9333.593,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":9359.534,"end":9362.035,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":9382.961,"end":9412.79,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":9413.595,"end":9415.096,"text":"創作人才獎勵創作人才獎勵創作人才獎勵創作人才獎勵創作人才獎勵"},{"start":9442.693,"end":9459.984,"text":"並且作品創作完成之後媒合跟發表不過我們還看到還有36案是未經媒合者不過文化部是已經有說明是說這36案可能另有規劃但是等一下是不是要說明一下是說他們的規劃是有更好的一個發展還是有什麼想法"},{"start":9460.825,"end":9486.203,"text":"以現在這樣子看到的一個部分未來如果說要再做媒合的話有沒有什麼更能夠精進的一個作為這一點是我提出來的要求請等一下說明另外第二個部分就是我們其實過去從2017年到2024年這短短的六七年裡面也補助了實體的書店有300多案高達金額一億兩千多萬元"},{"start":9487.063,"end":9505.652,"text":"但是呢在這補助完之後其實我們也看到近期大環境對於實體書店還是沒有那麼的友善因此我們想是說除了我們在接下來還要持續的來做補助不管是營運推廣閱讀以外還有什麼可以更對症下藥的作為是部長"},{"start":9506.252,"end":9522.823,"text":"在這個以出版人文化人的角度來講是可以給我們更多的一個參考地方那這兩個部分我也可以接受跟大家一一併來做這個併動的一個討論但我們希望聽到一個比較具體的方向以上謝謝好謝謝孟凱配意有要補充好請吳佩儀委員"},{"start":9533.271,"end":9558.185,"text":"這個部分我沒有提案但是針對國家語言發展中心我也希望給文化部一些建議因為國家語言發展這個是有法源依據所以其實是屬於法定業務那我們過去一直關心的是在這個國家語言整體形成合理的方案出來之後文化部主責的是台灣台語、馬祖語跟台灣俗語就是我同意剛剛委員所說的正名跟正形這兩者其實是並行不悖的"},{"start":9560.486,"end":9579.667,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9580.688,"end":9595.335,"text":"計劃,我希望可以來加速來進行。所以呢因為我們過去看到的是目前整個國家語言他高達了七項八項以上分散在我們不同的部會然後呢也有政府的振興的工作也有民間團體振興的工作那我們應該要有一個中心的設置過去講的就是有一個單一的主責機構能夠來去整合國家語言"},{"start":9604.96,"end":9607.521,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":9635.161,"end":9635.182,"text":"7案。"},{"start":9650.496,"end":9650.677,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9665.196,"end":9666.257,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9693.03,"end":9698.051,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9719.1,"end":9747.751,"text":"輔助書店的營運規劃從102年到現在整個實體書店的一個作業要點也會因應整個書店的一個發展我們都會來每年會做一些滾動式的一個修正那包含就是說越來越多我們希望書店可以成為地方的一個危險文化中心有時候也希望他們能夠多跟在地的一些學校或社區去做結合去做合作"},{"start":9748.131,"end":9778.131,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":9778.991,"end":9796.539,"text":"這是有關那個書店的一個部分接下來有關那個剛剛江雅琳委員所提到金曼獎那其實在金曼獎這三年得一個得獎作品那大概就是百分之八成以上就是八成以上大概都是原創作品那因為我們有一個所謂的跨越應用獎"},{"start":9797.239,"end":9797.68,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":9823.041,"end":9834.746,"text":"陳秀寶委員提到希望能夠多跟國科會合作這部分我們未來會持續跟國科會多多合作即使在我們在做語法論壇和語法會議的過程當中請國科會推薦他們在執行泰德的老師來分享他們的成果"},{"start":9844.75,"end":9851.717,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9865.186,"end":9867.767,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9893.22,"end":9894.684,"text":"計劃案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":9901.909,"end":9925.603,"text":"陳培宇委員所提到的創新書室的一個檢討那因為這個部分因為我們執行過了一年那陸陸續續我們也透過之前的一個共識會議我們接下來也會陸陸續續的計畫的一個滾動式的修正那所有書展的部分我們這個部分我們因為是目前是部署文車院在執行所以後續我們也會來跟文車院做一個一個"},{"start":9927.824,"end":9948.677,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9948.677,"end":9966.852,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9967.227,"end":9984.36,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9984.78,"end":9985.701,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":10005.611,"end":10028.626,"text":"由數碼部去進行所謂的停止解析或是一些相關的一個作為這樣子這個部分跟委員這邊先做一個報告那因為有關電子書剛剛柯委員所提到了就是說因為十二園他其實就是歷年來就是他整個市場機制是圖書館跟平台之間形成的一個"},{"start":10029.626,"end":10048.573,"text":"市場機制形成的一個價格12塊那有關剛剛委員所提到是不是能夠增加或者是是不是能夠補助買斷的這個部分那也先跟委員報告就是說因為我們陸續在執行我們也希望就是說在陸續的檢討看如何在這個部分再去做一些那個調整這樣子看是不是"},{"start":10048.933,"end":10049.514,"text":"國立文化基金附"},{"start":10065.657,"end":10067.158,"text":"國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":10081.971,"end":10083.613,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":10097.794,"end":10104.701,"text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那我覺得這個爭議這個爭議我沒有辦法接受請尊重教委好不好沒關係那個現在我們那個討論的部分其實我寫的是針對的個案那如果"},{"start":11059.704,"end":11060.064,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":11086.656,"end":11090.237,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":11106.672,"end":11119.775,"text":"我覺得那個人文出版編14億已經非常少,因為大家一方面要我們培育人才,一方面又給我們那個錢是不夠的,所以我希望不要動,就是沒有動也不要撿。"},{"start":11130.197,"end":11130.498,"text":"孟凱文人"},{"start":11152.231,"end":11167.913,"text":"感謝喔 朝委我想還是一樣說明啦凍結我們今天沒有簡列就代表是說其實委員都已經有聽到行政部門的回應我們也持正向的態度認為說行政部門已經有看到問題那我們現在要的是怎麼樣有辦法去解決問題"},{"start":11169.255,"end":11194.74,"text":"我想我們今天坐在這邊我們就是希望行政部門既然看到問題不管是語言發展中心不管是本席剛剛提到的出版業的一個媒合的部分剛剛次長也講嘛媒合部分確實有36位他可能有更好的一個方向但是你今年也因為有36位沒有媒合到最後你們需要去修改相關的一些辦法認為是說只要他沒有辦法提出來的話我們都可以有更積極的push他們出版嘛"},{"start":11195.62,"end":11222.588,"text":"我覺得這就是正向的態度啊那還有剛剛柯志恩委員講的這12塊的一個部分那確實啊你的本來利益是良善希望我們來誘導更多人去借用電子書但不要因為我們政策出來之後反而造成說這個對一個成語比較好的方向是望梅止渴啊但如果說比較壞的方向是什麼引就"},{"start":11225.496,"end":11231.548,"text":"影證職﹚對就不要造成這樣的一個狀況感謝大家你看教育文化委員會就是有大家互相教學相長"},{"start":11233.28,"end":11261.262,"text":"所以我覺得這樣子啦部長不要把我們委員提出來說這個凍結與否當然是不支持而是我們剛剛也講了你三個月內能夠提出相關的書面報告該解凍我們還是解凍還是希望鼓勵文化部都去做這些事情所以我們剛剛已經講三個月內有書面報告這幾個部分我們要那是不是在這個部分因為本席本來也是提我這兩億元的部分凍結10%啦"},{"start":11262.563,"end":11272.508,"text":"但既然我們這個市長部長這邊都有誠意剛剛也有幾個部分的話那還是我們就是整目凍結5%好不好以這樣的方向來看好來那個郭玉琴委員"},{"start":11280.855,"end":11281.416,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":11300.268,"end":11302.77,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11330.388,"end":11332.553,"text":"等下再給雅琳委員然後再部長好不好"},{"start":11335.566,"end":11356.559,"text":"我想就是說因為大家都非常在乎國家語言的整體發展嘛因為我想大家都在這個華語的霸權之下親受到很多的母語都受到了一些影響我自己會擔心就是說當我們凍結這麼多可能會影響它相關的業務的推展所以我也想要再請部長再多說一點到底實際上的影響是什麼可能讓我們委員更清楚好不好謝謝部長"},{"start":11361.664,"end":11381.956,"text":"我剛才有講到很多包括語言發展中心的成立跟籌備我們開始推行那個台語家庭之外我們所有出版的問題都是這幾年其實其實文化部有一直在幫忙推出版所以我們今年才會擔心一個在美國國家圖書得獎的一個作者楊雙子他基本上得那個獎是跟諾貝爾獎蠻像的"},{"start":11383.777,"end":11386.399,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11407.213,"end":11409.014,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11421.946,"end":11437.827,"text":"五百萬蠻多的各位同情一下我們出版業這麼慘一方面大家講出版業這麼慘一方面又要看我們的我覺得真的是其實我們文化部整個預算不到國家的1%"},{"start":11439.488,"end":11439.588,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11454.508,"end":11455.649,"text":"國立文化發展基金附"},{"start":11470.68,"end":11472.862,"text":"國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11496.84,"end":11499.582,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":11517.038,"end":11519.88,"text":"第6目改組決議179、182、184、185、186、188、189、203、204以上各案第2節的部分206到209"},{"start":11549.156,"end":11565.472,"text":"主席兩千五希望他們能夠提出具體的改善國慢管的一個方針剛剛也有其他的委員有一起響應這個國慢的部分我希望他們都能夠聽到然後提出書面報告然後使得動之部長說明一下"},{"start":11570.296,"end":11570.576,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":11586.254,"end":11587.535,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11612.725,"end":11620.132,"text":"因為我們2018年開始補助漫畫現在全台灣漫畫只有3%請你不要笑我會努力的"},{"start":11622.022,"end":11623.123,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":11644.588,"end":11671.726,"text":"我們可以支持阿我給你凍結五塊都沒關係但是問題是你開出了這個大家要怎麼看到有具體的期程看到台灣的漫畫能夠超越日韓三年內對不起我我希望看到更具體的期程你要如何超越日韓我在30歲的時候就超過很多國家的電影了"},{"start":11672.728,"end":11694.76,"text":"我覺得我們給自己一個期待我可以相信小野部長你超越了日韓但是對不起我要的是國家整體發展我不要的是個案你剛剛講的是台灣漫畫而不是台灣某個作者超越日韓那現在要怎樣部長不好意思你請坐好嗎你知道你剛剛回憶的東西有多大嗎"},{"start":11696.294,"end":11713.985,"text":"你知道日韓漫畫現在在這個國外甚至被拍成電影影集嗎?好 來 那個羅廷惠委員我們現在這一案吼目前有沒有啊吼那個教育那個文化部這邊有沒有需要比較急的資料是今天必須要先補出來的那個廷惠有沒有現在有沒有什麼資料是現在要先補的我先處理兩塊對"},{"start":11725.919,"end":11730.761,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11749.668,"end":11778.12,"text":"有完的那很多人在抱怨這個國辦館的一些設施可以更好所以才會今天有這麼的具體的凍結是希望你們能夠改進國辦館你短一時一刻你沒辦法給我資料的啦所以那剛剛你又跟我講這5000萬關乎到你2027能不能超越日韓這給我一個非常大的一個"},{"start":11779.963,"end":11782.886,"text":"五千萬只是我們的基本所有開銷。剛才我講到我要超過日韓"},{"start":11801.676,"end":11802.277,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11814.301,"end":11818.142,"text":"所以部長所以你要不要跟我講我凍結這五這兩千五會影響到你二零二七嗎那兩回事嗎對不起部長部長來您先坐下來齁我把它釐清一下齁部長您在答這個回答的時候要針對預算案齁那因為現在你們已經啊齁把這個這個國家動漫博物館已經講到了就是要超越日韓的這些目標了那這些目標"},{"start":11838.55,"end":11861.213,"text":"你現在把它講出來羅廷偉委員當然會覺得很多地方都是不清楚的嘛但是你現在來提到說這五千萬全部都是營運的相關什麼水電型電費用你要把它講清楚嘛你不然你跟著講要講什麼有志氣的事情啊超越日韓的事情我其實很佩服耶五千萬就可以做這些事所以拜託針對預算回答清楚好不好"},{"start":11862.637,"end":11888.012,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11888.152,"end":11891.293,"text":"第114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":11912.148,"end":11938.633,"text":"那所以你在營運跟業務的配置上裡面是怎麼個配法?那如果要這樣子講的話是不是所有的東西要再講得更細喔?我剛剛只是講因為剛剛提過委員要動2500萬我只是要描述說如果動了2500萬對於國慢館的營運上來講他大概就只能做到開館可是其他的策展或者是其他的活動的部分的預算會受到相當嚴重的影響好 范委員"},{"start":11939.713,"end":11955.601,"text":"我也很支持說羅廷偉委員關心無障礙因為像故宮我也都持續要求他可是這種事情不是一下子就立刻可以做出來的因為他現在有時候還要去跟文化部爭取更多的經費因為那個日式建築的宿舍區的無障礙慢慢改善"},{"start":11956.021,"end":11956.621,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":11975.289,"end":11983.936,"text":"這一個罪案其實委員關切的就是都是我們園區的硬體設備尤其無障礙設施的改善所以我要贊同剛剛召委講的剛剛我覺得部長不應該去把他帶到因為還是要回到聚焦這是預算案的討論整個動漫的政策"},{"start":11991.241,"end":12014.969,"text":"何止是你一個園區能夠去推動的這需要整個文化部包括行政院的整體政策的投入那我們剛剛看到的是這一個明年的漫畫館的預算明年五千萬其實並不多那因為我過去跟他們一直在關切的是我們跟京都的漫畫博物館的國際交流計畫那這個是不是也在明年的業務當中呢因為剛剛這個博物館部你們說明就要說明清楚嘛包括你的基礎營運的預算是多少"},{"start":12020.691,"end":12020.971,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12043.553,"end":12052.459,"text":"關於羅廷偉委員關切的無障礙設施的提升,關於羅廷偉委員關切的無障礙設施的提升,關於羅廷偉委員關切的無障礙設施的提升,關於羅廷偉委員關切的無障礙設施的提升,"},{"start":12069.326,"end":12090.828,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12090.988,"end":12094.375,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12101.99,"end":12125.187,"text":"謝謝所有的委員一起來關注無障礙的部分但現階段我所提到的不只無障礙我從9月多就開始跟大家跟這個文化部講包括二手漫畫包括漫畫展覽的延攬歷史的嚴格包括園區內的一些問題9月多12月初才回我基礎該怎麼去因應到剛剛"},{"start":12126.846,"end":12145.892,"text":"相關的主管機關才告訴我他們要跟漫畫的從業人員來辦座談那我9月請你們開始去調查協助把他們所彙整的一些問題要你們協助處理的時候你們給我回會再來研議研議研議到12月到現在已經要年底了還告訴我還要再跟漫畫從業人員來做座談這幾個月你們在幹嘛"},{"start":12150.322,"end":12158.219,"text":"面對問題沒有解決問題嘛所以才會逼得我要來凍結我凍結是希望整個國慢館的營運未來更好"},{"start":12160.206,"end":12160.987,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12186.869,"end":12187.969,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構"},{"start":12212.47,"end":12228.459,"text":"部長不好意思齁這個我本來也有提案然後我原本這個提案呢是想要說了解一下但是在這之前你們也沒有跟我聯繫齁然後我剛才聽到羅委員講到他從9月份就已經一直問你們有關於這個動漫館的營運結果你們也沒有回他然後到今天呢部長您又談到2027我覺得真正在預算上我們的問題是我們沒有辦法針對問題講清楚那剛才您的幕僚"},{"start":12239.025,"end":12265.182,"text":"已經跟我們確認說那明年的整個營運有很多是基礎的設施那也有部分的業務被推動那我不知道是不是因為我們你覺得我們都沒有經驗那知道在推動的時候一定要一開始把錢全部都給你們那接下來我們都沒有任何監督的機制其實在第一階段的凍結我們就希望能夠跟你們溝通了解到底你們一整年來講不清楚的東西到底是什麼第二個部分是那"},{"start":12266.002,"end":12266.583,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":12284.47,"end":12290.536,"text":"電費、水費怎麼付、業務怎麼處理你是一開始年初就要發包還是一季一季要處理還是你半年為一個單位這些都是細部的問題啊所以為什麼從今天一開始就跟你們說在這個你們回應的東西要嘛我們不對題覺得我們都不會看嘛要不然就是我看不到重點嘛"},{"start":12306.451,"end":12328.685,"text":"所以這個部分本來我沒有太大的意見可是我覺得你們這樣的態度事實上我真的要附和那個庭委委員雖然沒有動這麼多那你們要解釋清楚到底你到底要怎麼做好謝謝慶慶委員我來處理了好不好因為這題我們已經討論很久了那大家的意見彼此都知道了那現在這樣子喔這個這篇的說明有沒有補給我庭委委員"},{"start":12330.955,"end":12356.131,"text":"應該要補清楚現在這樣子我們提案的委員你可能要把因為今天這個我覺得是答詢上真的一個烏龍明明這五千萬用的就不是要來什麼多元大安目標什麼超越日韓那變成一動了以後以後我們就不能超越日韓這當然會讓委員覺得這帽子扣大了但是現在看起來有很多都是相關的水電保全監視器"},{"start":12358.152,"end":12368.455,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12387.339,"end":12390.261,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12414.116,"end":12414.757,"text":"總共動500就好了。"},{"start":12437.076,"end":12440.877,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12458.4,"end":12486.234,"text":"對我覺得500應該是底線的啦我是整個第六幕啦前面1000嘛這邊500好好就是剛剛有一個1000然後現在針對第二節不同節啦針對第二節的部分500第二節500喔我已經有退讓了喔好好沒有其實我真的覺得我真的要講啦其實聽委這個不叫做退讓而是啦齁真的你們剛剛沒有講清楚今天講清楚讓羅廷偉委員他關心的東西可以清楚呈現就沒有這個誤會嘛那我們是一定支持的嘛但之後"},{"start":12487.474,"end":12506.606,"text":"關於我們所關心的國家動漫博物館到底要做什麼?未來我希望明年度相關的計畫每一次每一次都要讓委員知道那各位委員因為現在已經11點59分了那我們中午休息一下然後下午從第7幕開始審查我們休息一個小時1點鐘我們在這裡繼續審查謝謝"},{"start":12515.074,"end":12540.256,"text":"你認爲這個典藏的資格門是買動漫相關的資料嗎?對,就是漫畫家他們的編導、收藏對,然後接下來剩下的是舉辦委員會然後來處理典藏業務嗎?沒有,因爲我希望實在太少了那個典藏這個過程還有包括要去做全市資料、數位化、資料庫就是典藏的業務資料這幾個資料"},{"start":12545.905,"end":12561.83,"text":"你們每次都說這個來不及不要這樣騙我們了啦我們不可能在一開始不過那個委員要有一個我們機關部門對於凍結的事情沒有解凍之前不敢發聲解凍之後我們才敢救雖然簡單講就是講凍結不代表最後一定解凍所以凍結一定是解凍之後我的行政才能夠回家"},{"start":12573.994,"end":12602.148,"text":"對啊,那你們報告送來就解凍了啊?請問到底是有什麼那麼...我們控帳的基金來的它對於你把一個合約發出去、發出去、發出去超過凍結範圍的時候它就不會讓你發報了所以如果說凍結會到下半年度或者是就算第一季結束已經吃到要去做解決"},{"start":12602.688,"end":12605.711,"text":"國立文化機構所屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12630.313,"end":12634.715,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12653.144,"end":12674.909,"text":"就是我們這個真的很緊張,因為羅琳瑋她是選區的對阿因為她可能九月份跟你們就如同我跟你們一整年還有從12月開始我凍結提出來你們的不要說講太多那太情緒了正好是輪到你然後又是你們的所謂長官這樣子回應,我覺得莫名其妙"},{"start":12677.071,"end":12680.864,"text":"不能真的感到莫名其妙,真的是不過也是羅天瑋在這個過程裡面"},{"start":12684.854,"end":12712.273,"text":"我們之前有一個副主任講到,對口都是一個副主任。可是副主任中途就停止了。離此的這些議員檢討,沒有交接。所以事實上剛才那口頭講的,我到現在這邊知道說,他反映的是這些問題。所以我們如果要背書這些預算,那你們過往的這些有的沒有的事情,難道不是我們扛慎的一個重點嗎?"},{"start":12714.114,"end":12717.036,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12727.439,"end":12731.663,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":12755.822,"end":12759.804,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":12779.314,"end":12786.874,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第3會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12795.785,"end":12808.998,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12815.522,"end":12821.988,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第3會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12844.921,"end":12863.678,"text":"有關文化部主管國立文化基金附有關文化基金附有關文化基金附"},{"start":12871.992,"end":12876.094,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12920.516,"end":12926.208,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":12934.387,"end":12945.312,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12956.476,"end":12961.637,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12976.162,"end":12980.505,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":12992.034,"end":12999.437,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":13019.941,"end":13038.868,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":13061.227,"end":13061.39,"text":"提示"},{"start":16164.639,"end":16165.183,"text":"好那我們繼續來開會"},{"start":16168.634,"end":16177.64,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":16198.223,"end":16200.268,"text":"在場的委員有沒有意見?沒有,好。那我們就先請陳培日委員。"},{"start":16208.191,"end":16210.013,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16233.052,"end":16234.673,"text":"108年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16252.102,"end":16255.444,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16269.77,"end":16298.558,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":16299.018,"end":16304.02,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16322.088,"end":16346.689,"text":"好,大概就這樣,謝謝主席,謝謝好,謝謝,因為剛剛那個,剛剛休息完齁可是有些委員剛好路上走過來慢一點點齁那主席再徵詢一下大家的看法齁第七幕喔,因為從210到241總共大概就是30案那如果我們要分節的話是210到228是18那如果我們全部一起的話是30那如果我們用這整幕來討論"},{"start":16349.03,"end":16375.955,"text":"並且來並案動。在場委員可以接受嗎?可以嗎?那我們就繼續了。主席不好意思我剛漏掉一個2、3、5。NSO的部分不管是之前的10元票券屢次超過3%或者是相關的跟團隊裡面的溝通或者是巡演的問題我相信文化部應該要善盡監督的責任當然他們現在的法人單位確實是處於身份的尷尬的狀態但不代表我們不能認真監督。以上謝謝。"},{"start":16378.592,"end":16381.255,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16403.035,"end":16431.278,"text":"南區媒合率只有五成一那顯然是低於其他的各區而且呢我這邊也提到的你們112是參與的對象是國小生國中高中參與校數只有兩成到兩成三這個成效是有待加強的所以說呢我個人認為你們要提出辦法而且文化部給我的這個說法文化部還說南區部分學校對本計劃不熟悉阿對本計劃不熟悉是為什麼"},{"start":16432.039,"end":16433.2,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":16454.636,"end":16455.316,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16481.472,"end":16509.095,"text":"這完全在沒有你們預算當中沒有看到然後到底是到底是怎麼樣沒有按照規定來編列也沒有經過立法院來審查我覺得假如每個部會都是如此的話那我們還要在坐在這邊審預算是審啥啊而且最主要是你用限制性的招標你要用限制性的一個招標而且你這邊提出的理由說國內具有相關執行單位進入議院調查之後兩廳院跟衛武營國家藝術中心意願不高所以只有我們高雄愛樂文化有意願"},{"start":16511.036,"end":16513.457,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16533.826,"end":16534.767,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16550.227,"end":16575.105,"text":"這個發生我完全沒考我完全沒有提到裡面的內容裡面的內容由學者還有所謂藝術工作者對裡面內容提出他部分我只針對針我只針對預算我只針對你這個內容這一次我需要得到一個答案沒有按照規定來編列沒有經過立法院審查那我真的必須要說限制性招標我真的必須要說如果這個東西都可以這樣子的話我今天坐在這邊是幹嘛每一件事你都可以通過這個來來破例來來來處理這個文化部必須給個交代"},{"start":16580.95,"end":16585.074,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":16609.255,"end":16613.756,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16630.404,"end":16630.965,"text":"第二部分,我也想"},{"start":16651.186,"end":16666.237,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":16666.337,"end":16669.199,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16688.592,"end":16690.294,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16715.049,"end":16719.391,"text":"二、繼續審查118年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16742.381,"end":16743.221,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":16771.554,"end":16798.603,"text":"標案裏面經費的配置剛才柯委員講得很清楚在這邊就不要墜序所以你們跟所謂表演藝術還有語言的推動到底有什麼差別這個我看不出來那另外第二個部分是那1624我想這是前部長使喆的一個算他的政績吧那我在質詢的時候也說過很多次那你們在這裡面"},{"start":16799.563,"end":16800.143,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16816.548,"end":16838.912,"text":"在預算科目都沒有編列的東西你們今年就可以擠出這樣子的錢那我合理懷疑在你們明年編列的這個預算裡面至少有相當程度的經費是這麼編的要不然你們今年為什麼可以這樣預算的執行我們不能說你們都想幫我們往未來的方向走但是今年的這樣我們總得算一算吧"},{"start":16839.372,"end":16843.196,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16860.953,"end":16876.333,"text":"明年的這個第一季我們就有這個國父紀念日的一個館慶那對紀念活動那這個我必須要很清楚的知道他要怎麼樣能夠符合大家在國父紀念日上的這樣一個期待"},{"start":16877.034,"end":16896.875,"text":"這也是希望待會簡單的回應當然你已經也做了很詳盡的說明然後也補充了一個相關資料但是我們是希望在這個過程當中你所講的事情不會再因你們這整體我不知道會怎麼做整體的處理而有一些變化我必須要很清楚的知道然後最後241這邊"},{"start":16899.369,"end":16903.592,"text":"教育及文化部主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":16919.684,"end":16944.443,"text":"但是另外也是國家性的交響樂團那如果你賦予他們教育方面的責任那兩個交響樂團的這個定位應該更清楚的被界分那另外還有相關的假設國樂團的部分你們要怎麼樣來推動相關的業務那這個業務單位是有來跟我說明的我只想確認定位上跟我們所講的定位的清楚在未來能不能實際的執行那"},{"start":16947.745,"end":16964.56,"text":"這一幕呢除了那個政策規劃這個部分我沒有聽得很清楚然後1624沒有一個交代以外那其他的我就希望針對我剛才做一個簡單的回應就好了但是我剛才講的這兩個部分我希望很確切的有一些回應謝謝謝謝慶琪雅琳有沒有案子好張雅琳委員"},{"start":16967.946,"end":16975.448,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":16990.452,"end":17011.476,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17011.576,"end":17021.91,"text":"且每6個月提供追蹤進度報告和開會記錄讓我們去確保這件事情是有落實的那如果可以的話我是可以併案來處理我不堅持那再來就是228案"},{"start":17024.644,"end":17026.645,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17048.951,"end":17052.252,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17068.223,"end":17088.308,"text":"在這個兩廳院的設計上面因為其實兩廳院是一個蠻重要的這個大台北台北市地區的這個親子收器的空間那邊其實是有非常多不管是從早到晚都有非常多的人在那邊遊活動那過去它是有一個噴水系統那目前是因為施工所以暫停"},{"start":17089.008,"end":17117.002,"text":"不過因為其實市民親子朋友都非常關心之後有這個噴水設備會不會持續的延續但是我們調閱了相關的設計圖之後發現這些噴水設施並沒有出現在設計圖那現在是跟我們說會有一些下城市廣場、森林區和親子友善空間但事實上我看不出來這到底只有一個廣場我看不出來到底要怎麼樣親子友善怎麼樣適應小孩可以在裡面逗留所以這部分我蠻堅持的 謝謝"},{"start":17120.154,"end":17136.608,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續�"},{"start":17148.818,"end":17173.203,"text":"那其中參與傳統類的表演活動大概是28%相較於2023年的25%是有約略的2022年的部分是有約略的增加那文化部近年為了推廣參與表演活動這些相關的一些政策有包含文化必要、文化平衡等等希望說吸引民眾來參與相關的表演活動"},{"start":17175.723,"end":17182.945,"text":"但是如果以數據上來看實際上參與人數並沒有很顯著的增加所以文化部這邊應該要檢討就相關的統計數據來檢討說我們該如何精進相關推廣的政策來提高我們傳統類的表演藝術活動的參與率"},{"start":17194.668,"end":17196.889,"text":"文化部這邊你們又來說明你們同期的數據跟我們這個消費趨勢調查報告是有點不太一樣文化平權的巡演部分今年總共辦了10個場次與112年是相同的但是參加的人數從12萬有提升到22.7萬"},{"start":17213.198,"end":17220.163,"text":"傳譯中心也以走近校園巡演、跨出戶外會員等模式來創造兒上欣賞傳統藝術的機會。在113年度總共有辦理了1134個場次,參加人數達到31.6萬。"},{"start":17229.069,"end":17245.072,"text":"這個部分我也希望說文化部你們要持續相關辦理相關的計畫我們來提升傳統表譽活動的參與率因為對傳統表譽的這個扶植與推展還有我們怎麼樣鼓勵來參與我一直都非常非常的關心那在這邊我等一下是不是請文化部簡單說明一下114年你們關於傳統表譽活動的推廣計畫以上好謝謝要回來是郁琦郁琦委員"},{"start":17258.117,"end":17264.16,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17281.297,"end":17308.332,"text":"那尤其是那個問卷回來之後就發現知道這個訊息的最多的還是以路過為主占41.53%那相關的像大專學校相關科系或從業人員僅占參觀人數的23.7%那未來是不是可以再擴大去宣傳這個不同領域的一些受眾的一個族群然後強化整個所有的這個就是場館"},{"start":17309.452,"end":17320.096,"text":"在科技藝術應用上的一個優勢跟推廣那這部分其實我沒有特別堅持可以改組決議但是還是可能要在這個部分要做在更精進的部分好 以上好 謝謝那再過來佩玉發言過了嗎那那個葛如君委員"},{"start":17328.899,"end":17332.223,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17345.538,"end":17364.36,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17364.46,"end":17382.778,"text":"提到說要培育科技藝術人才但是會不會又像先前我們不斷提到有辦一些黑客松、比賽、甄選但是對於優秀的優選者卻沒有後續的支持跟規劃那想要請文化部說明一下對科技藝術人才培育的具體規劃"},{"start":17384.139,"end":17411.44,"text":"因為這個台灣是得天獨厚那有非常多的這個文藝科技藝術的創作者在台灣非常的活躍但是卻一直是沒有得到更多的這個關注跟資源那我想台灣不能說每次講科技之島講得很開心但是講到這個科技去結合文化跟藝術的時候它就變得邊緣一旦跨了領域呢就沒有辦法得到益助所以這一點還是希望能夠有一個長遠的規劃"},{"start":17413.061,"end":17415.402,"text":"第二、繼續審查127年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17439.548,"end":17464.138,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17467.676,"end":17490.668,"text":"二二六案是關於重建台灣藝術史2.0計畫提出這個案子首先要反駁國民黨智庫一些不明就裡的指控陳學聖先生宣稱長期以來台灣藝術史的議題有許多單位在執行何來重建之有"},{"start":17492.048,"end":17503.874,"text":"陳學仁先生還說,文化部只是透過政治正確的包裝再燒一筆錢。我認為國民黨智庫這種說法不是外行,就是根本不重視台灣藝術史。"},{"start":17509.972,"end":17533.286,"text":"台灣藝術史這個兩百年因為連續殖民而遭遇這個斷裂跟被刻意的遺忘連帶台灣國家文化自信的主體性我想也受到很大的這個貶低跟壓抑我想這都是血淋淋跟有標誌性的案例那我來提一個例子就是防土水的國寶級的創作甘露水"},{"start":17534.787,"end":17555.779,"text":"在國民黨獨裁統治下其實很粗暴的處置所以荒謬的遺失了這個甘露水半世紀長達半世紀直到2021就是在這個重建台灣藝術史1.0的計畫的協力下由林曼莉教授跟她的團隊尋獲並在2023年由文化部指定為國寶"},{"start":17557.24,"end":17572.438,"text":"台灣國寶的失業負得是近年的事情所以台灣藝術史百廢待舉也是不爭的事實那我覺得甚至有論者會說其實在台灣連藝術史的概念都仍不存在"},{"start":17572.858,"end":17574.599,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17594.025,"end":17598.008,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":17620.345,"end":17635.279,"text":"中正紀念堂的轉型我覺得不但是文化部是所承接了轉型正義的任務行政院也有籌劃這個中正紀念堂轉型推動專案小組可是在這個中正紀念堂管理組織法"},{"start":17637.014,"end":17656.363,"text":"這個法令至今還明寫著說設置中央紀念堂管理處就是因為文化部要辦理先總統獎功的紀念所以是不是這個中央紀念堂管理處組織法這個是不是要來做一些修正不然轉型正義這個怎麼談那另外這個231案也是談到這個轉型的問題"},{"start":17663.766,"end":17678.794,"text":"就是說中正健堂堂體現在好像有一個說要開放未來有一個規劃說要開放堂體內部可以供人策展而且是供一般人民來申請那我是覺得這樣子可能要慎重思考因為我們這個堂體就是一個獨裁者的劇情銅像在那裡"},{"start":17687.398,"end":17693.899,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17718.524,"end":17719.625,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":17733.732,"end":17736.053,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17763.567,"end":17764.768,"text":"委員會主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":17786.647,"end":17787.348,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":17803.681,"end":17825.177,"text":"另外有關這個藝術品購置就葛羅軍委員所提的這個藝術品購置的部分這1000萬我們就是希望未來也是可以在談這些前輩藝術家的部分的一些相關的作品看看有什麼樣的方式那未來籌備處他會再做進一步的瞭解跟"},{"start":17826.597,"end":17853.528,"text":"與計劃案有關台南國家美術館的部分有關林慶祺委員提到零一表演藝術及視覺藝術政策演繹及推動這個項目這個項目主要的經費是使用在文化體驗教育上跟它有一些急難救助的部分這個也跟委員做一個說明另外我們在"},{"start":17855.009,"end":17875.981,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17876.021,"end":17877.862,"text":"國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":17905.52,"end":17927.961,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17928.081,"end":17929.022,"text":"蔡宜君,這完全沒有回答我的問題。"},{"start":17953.797,"end":17971.852,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":17971.872,"end":17971.972,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17991.455,"end":17994.717,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18020.149,"end":18021.07,"text":"國立文化基金附"},{"start":18039.582,"end":18059.258,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":18059.258,"end":18059.819,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18078.881,"end":18080.123,"text":"重建藝術史重建藝術史"},{"start":18093.704,"end":18095.206,"text":"國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18110.984,"end":18115.952,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18126.032,"end":18127.013,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18148.03,"end":18155.479,"text":"那另外陳培韻委員還有針對鑑定價的部分這塊我們會再跟化學會再跟各大專院校來"},{"start":18158.029,"end":18159.289,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18183.299,"end":18186.868,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18192.623,"end":18220.075,"text":"有關領域委員所關切的中央紀念堂轉型的這個問題那因為中央紀念堂的這個轉型其實在行政院的轉型推動匯報底下有專業小組在處理所以有關中央紀念堂的組織法的修正文化部這邊會持續辦社會溝通的活動然後還有我們當初的那個概念淨土的成果作為整個後續空間的一個規劃的參考然後最主要是要把那個組織轉型方向要報到行政院的轉型匯報"},{"start":18221.195,"end":18224.597,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18238.242,"end":18253.889,"text":"關於欠取委員關切的國父紀念館雖然現在我們面臨最大規模的整修所以全館閉館但是面對明年度剛好適逢國父100週年的事實紀念日其實我們早在半年前就已經開始做策劃了包含"},{"start":18254.709,"end":18263.992,"text":"展覽、表演、研討會等,分別利用館內園區空間與館外其他相關例如政治大學、傳譯中心、戲曲中心合辦。展覽時間、內容全部定了。3月7日至25日是展覽在政大圖書館一樓大廳舉辦孫中山與台灣革命理想與當代共鳴特展。"},{"start":18279.056,"end":18281.377,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18302.245,"end":18328.594,"text":"其他紀念活動包含了園區在3月8號慣常舉辦的植樹節的這個正樹苗還有園區的這個市集的活動還有證書的活動特別也跟郵局會合作來開發一個這個百年紀念郵票冊那並且跟我們園區的委外單位和那個合作來這個製作國父紀念酒等等那內容時間都已經定了這個請委員放心我們會努力去做謝謝"},{"start":18331.328,"end":18334.169,"text":"國標一中心國標一中心國標一中心國標一中心國標一中心國標一中心"},{"start":18362.518,"end":18377.842,"text":"議員提到希望能夠加強監督我們在漂污處理方面的控管上會請NSO持續加強留意並且我們會加強查核適時對外來做溝通和示意另外一個部分就是NSO本身行政團隊的流動率問題"},{"start":18380.043,"end":18397.559,"text":"那過去走過這些年來這個人事的變動那疫情的流動率偏高的等等這些問題那麼現在我們請NSO也查處到最新的月份的流動率其實有建區穩定比起112年曾經有16.67%的這個異動那現在已經降為到這個一整年下來平均是0到"},{"start":18402.824,"end":18405.346,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18422.763,"end":18441.908,"text":"張雅玲委員提到兩平院的聯通道工程未來並沒有設計到噴水之類的親子活動設施納西委員了解我們這裡面在未來的森林、線性廣場、下降式景觀廣場兩平院有說明他們未來會在這裡面的空間做規劃"},{"start":18442.948,"end":18444.809,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18462.14,"end":18482.831,"text":"羅廷睿委員還沒有發言您好像有兩個案子不好意思我補充一下這一幕我們關心的是232案其實跟這個大家所關心的類似在國父紀念館的這個整修相關的一個計畫一直不斷的延宕那我們舉例從這個113八月底工程實際進度只有2.6那低於預期的進度是4.26"},{"start":18484.172,"end":18487.295,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18503.329,"end":18532.325,"text":"辦理這一個學員的宿舍委託營運那這個過程當中我想大家都利益良善但是OT廠商未依規定向主管機關申請旅館業的一個登記因此遭到主管機關處罰那我想儘管文化部110年就是111年多次喊請國台交加速辦理一個相關事宜但是我想並要求其營運廠商在這個協商提前終止契約避免旅約爭議那國台交也未能處理"},{"start":18532.865,"end":18544.891,"text":"那我們都希望這件事情能夠獲得重視所以提了一個凍結案那待會跟大家一併凍結都沒有關係但是我希望有一個具體的改善喔能夠讓我們知道一下讓我們比較安心這筆錢是運用得當謝謝好 秀寶委員我們請陳秀寶委員麥克風定一下 謝謝"},{"start":18558.72,"end":18559.14,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18575.239,"end":18578.161,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18605.424,"end":18609.487,"text":"傳統藝術的表演部分在114年我們除了原本的傳統藝術的保存推廣以及展演多元化的開支散業還有傳譯接班人的培育政策之外"},{"start":18627.219,"end":18627.639,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18643.266,"end":18645.108,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18658.183,"end":18661.545,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18674.252,"end":18674.673,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18690.473,"end":18691.314,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18708.234,"end":18731.937,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18732.466,"end":18747.551,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18748.092,"end":18771.574,"text":"在這個部分委員非常關心的是表演藝術團隊的經費的問題我們這次的傳統戲曲的團隊我們雖然只編列700萬但是那只是純粹的演出費用因為涉及了13個團隊所以不可能由每一個團隊自己去支付很多所戲的而是由傳譯中心"},{"start":18772.375,"end":18774.079,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18782.878,"end":18782.998,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18805.871,"end":18819.726,"text":"我下次問你8600萬在今年的時候是怎麼過來?你告訴我這是兩年的?是跨兩個部長是不是?還是怎麼樣?從112年的5月開始進行,到113年的2月才演出。所以呢你的這8600萬是怎麼匡出來的?"},{"start":18823.359,"end":18826.24,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18845.256,"end":18846.036,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18874.232,"end":18877.175,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18904.234,"end":18920.389,"text":"抱歉,跟委員說明一下,這個易發斯原本補助表演藝術團體有他們的經費那在113年的時候,因為我們要執行與發專案的整個文化部總共17億裡面我們有委託了,我忘了是9000萬,是請易發斯來執行"},{"start":18924.465,"end":18929.23,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18946.527,"end":18947.428,"text":"第113、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":18961.869,"end":18987.875,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18987.875,"end":19007.602,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19008.376,"end":19012.938,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19038.311,"end":19039.572,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19057.858,"end":19057.918,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":19088.118,"end":19094.982,"text":"委員審的是這些的細項你現在認為是這個部分你如何來做這樣你必須要給我一個很完整的一個檢討報告如果就是文化部認為這樣子所有的部分你們你可以透過這個八七六八把你們所有未來要以前在113年委員所審的預算還有為了你們要推動這個推動台語推動歌仔戲則無旁貸我們都很願意我小時候很愛看歌仔戲我唱幾首歌仔戲做歌仔戲也沒錢我是因為有雷花我就沒話但是"},{"start":19115.572,"end":19118.613,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19144.544,"end":19169.349,"text":"好 謝謝主席這部戲在上演的時候我在現場從頭看到完那是因為台南400一個很大型的歌仔戲的音樂劇我覺得這部戲我從頭看到完我真的是很震撼因為它真的是結合創新的劇本然後整個現代的光影舞台的設計"},{"start":19170.529,"end":19171.169,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":19191.935,"end":19213.504,"text":"當然我是覺得說因為大家都對於這個文化預算有個局限就如果這筆錢是方案科技預算的話大家可能會覺得這個七八千萬覺得也還OK好像方案文化預算好像大家就覺得好像真的太多了我覺得當然這個大家我們可以思考看看"},{"start":19214.384,"end":19221.209,"text":"當然還有十幾個劇團的結合不過這兩大劇團首次的結合空前我覺得或許也會絕後所以這真的是很難得啦因為我在現場看所以我趁這個機會跟大家報告一下"},{"start":19245.128,"end":19246.677,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19248.652,"end":19277.078,"text":"好我想因為我是阿宅阿我要幫這個科技圈的人來做個平反我們並不是說幾千萬來科技發展就怎麼樣就是小錢真的不是我們也一直不斷的表達說文化也很重要我甚至也覺得我們的文化很多的支出都還可以再更多為什麼科技的時代文化是更重要的阿但是問題是文化產出要有擴散性要有再利用性我諮詢的時候也跟部長講說我們有一些鋸馬"},{"start":19277.998,"end":19279.139,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":19308.418,"end":19336.004,"text":"八千萬裡面編了一千萬要做廣場的購買我從來沒有看過說到現在不知道要買什麼然後再編的啦你可以說你是要買雕塑你可以說你要買平面設計你可以說你要買超扁平你可以說你要買新媒體你可以說你要買科技藝術你要買AI藝術你要買傳統的油畫都可以你總要有一個方向你說你是要線上買還是線下買還是用什麼樣的形式總有一個"},{"start":19336.904,"end":19361.771,"text":"關典總有一個方針可是我們現在是我們預算編了先編了你不要砍我我到時候再想想看那這樣子我們就不知道我們的錢花到哪啦那等到明年又來講說不好意思我們後來又決定這個東西不要買了我們決定拿去再做另外一個劇或再錄另外一個表演不是說這樣不好但我覺得我們這樣應該期待的是我們的政府對於我們編列的預算及花出去的錢是有花時間規劃用心的規劃並且去執行它"},{"start":19366.192,"end":19392.253,"text":"另外我們一直講科技,剛剛就講科技文化其實是本一體的我們台灣的價值其實就這兩者的結合結果我們講到科藝創新的計畫其實我們也看到聽到的是說有6個實驗研究室讓大家來申請科技藝術的人他對技術不是很有信心我的理解是台灣科技藝術技術超強他也不是什麼技術沒有信心也不是說這6個空間給他用我們就結束了"},{"start":19395.706,"end":19419.49,"text":"我們政府在規劃文化的政策的時候科技藝術到底放在哪裡有沒有要帶出國有沒有要做一些額外的一個計劃性的推動有沒有讓全世界知道台灣不只是科技的世界的中心還是科技藝術世界的中心這我們都沒看到我們聽到就是我們有六個空間給科技藝術家使用所以這一點我是希望這個會後這兩點都希望有會後有書面的報告"},{"start":19422.931,"end":19447.426,"text":"還有我們剛剛講科技藝術要有完整的計劃書希望可以匯後可以補交謝謝好謝謝陳秀寶委員再來范雲委員然後張雅玲委員剛才權益中心已經有把你們114年這個規劃有大致的報告我希望從你把它做成書面送到我辦公室來主要是說傳統表意的這個扶植跟推展真的是我會希望說我們可以落實那我這個案子可以改成主決議謝謝"},{"start":19451.75,"end":19476.97,"text":"我也是針對這個1624雖然我沒有在現場看但是有看到不少新聞那我有注意到說因為剛剛骨君委員想要知道就是說回收的部分嘛那我看到文化部的報告有講說除了那三場次有現場7萬人次看之後那個線上觀看有超過70萬人次那我是蠻驚訝有這麼多人看我覺得是一件好事啊"},{"start":19477.21,"end":19496.766,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19496.866,"end":19509.902,"text":"就是未來可以繼續線上觀看因為這是一個文創向剛林經緯演講的那個傳統跟現代的結合我想有空的話像我也會想要來看一看以上謝謝秦雅琳"},{"start":19511.603,"end":19513.664,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":19532.91,"end":19534.131,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19551.058,"end":19578.407,"text":"就是說兩廳院現在在做一些主體的工程啊那其實呢我剛剛也雖然有聽到說我們有做一些相關的廣場但是我還有一些森林區啊有親子友善空間但我認為這個部分我還是需要可以這個應該是兩廳院這邊提供我這個相關有沒有跟親子團體有沒有跟相關的居民去做一些公聽會跟一些討論我需要這些資料跟當時開會的結論我們才能來評估說現在這個設計上有沒有反映到周遭居民的需求謝謝"},{"start":19581.172,"end":19582.416,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19589.967,"end":19618.179,"text":"謝謝教委您剛才講的繼續補充是我們就針對這一案要做出各位我那個從1624這件事情我是完全沒有辦法接受這樣的做法除非你們就跟我說以後你們還要再做一個1626接下來就西班牙400了然後在屏東還有各個不同的殖民時期不同的年份那文化部要不要針對這個部分有一個長期的定期的"},{"start":19619.139,"end":19623.56,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19646.084,"end":19660.611,"text":"每一次都這樣子嗎?每一次都這樣嗎?你們的那個編劇花了將近50萬,如果我沒看錯。對吧?然後那個節目製作3000多萬,是吧?舞台製作3000多萬。"},{"start":19662.125,"end":19664.786,"text":"主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":19687.21,"end":19700.946,"text":"那個不好意思,市長你們如果這個名列出來我看來帶同管的應該是唐美英阿伯的明華園嘛天團嘛最多應該是300吧最多如果印象沒錯的話我沒有辦法每天把你們那個數據帶著好"},{"start":19702.407,"end":19703.488,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19720.078,"end":19743.479,"text":"那麽大的經費被你們這樣子使用難怪我們有很大的意見嘛那你每一年都跟我們說這個以前這樣未來要檢討我真的不知道我坐在這邊到底要幹什麽啦好 敬請謝謝我們這不再進行討論了那個大家都有講到兩輪以上了那我們現在要針對這個第7幕的部分我們具體來提一下你們希望的凍結數或者減劣數來 哪一位委員"},{"start":19745.64,"end":19765.162,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19765.723,"end":19766.444,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":19781.067,"end":19781.647,"text":"國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":19805.541,"end":19805.701,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19819.95,"end":19822.452,"text":"主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":19842.924,"end":19843.984,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19872.301,"end":19877.154,"text":"那個餘額的距離的話可以拍成不是"},{"start":19879.155,"end":19879.836,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19908.339,"end":19911.141,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":19934.565,"end":19951.869,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19952.885,"end":19979.28,"text":"還是回答1624齁我沒有辦法回答1624的原因是我沒有看過那我也曾經為他辯護過但是我跟各位保證你們給我的預算我不會這樣用然後我會讓所有團比如說我會很有計畫的讓今年的品牌團隊多兩隊然後讓TOP100每個團都多錢我會讓錢非常平均的分在一個有計畫的有計畫的表演中我只能這樣回答"},{"start":19980.22,"end":19998.917,"text":"但是一、二、四我真的不會回答因為我知道的不多而且在我一上任之後我這個問題就被問過我們也很確實的回答每個預算的編列那每個預算的編列合不合理我想就看它那個規模多大但部長您的意思是說你不會這樣花嘛對不對我絕對不會啦那之前怎麼花很抱歉我必須很誠實的講"},{"start":20007.443,"end":20031.467,"text":"我們拿麥克風好不好?要發言的委員拜託稍微稍微跟他們一起知道一下因為如果沒有辦法了解的話我們也會擔心部長您的理想到最後錢下去就因為您不知道162是怎麼變成這樣的萬一到最後又變成那樣對不對?我想部長如果不能回答有沒有其他人可以待會回答?可以說明一下對"},{"start":20035.914,"end":20036.014,"text":"主席"},{"start":20054.645,"end":20054.965,"text":"台語類型的比賽"},{"start":20068.891,"end":20092.823,"text":"所以去年,史部長他在政策上面的確是在政策上面做了一個比較大的修正他希望文化部能夠對歌仔戲能夠挹注更多的預算、更多的經費所以當1624這樣一個題目的需求的時候他就希望能夠製作一個空前的歌仔戲然後做一個讓歌仔戲的從業的這些演員們都可以參與一下"},{"start":20095.765,"end":20097.826,"text":"我補充一下沒有辦法接受這樣的講法"},{"start":20124.076,"end":20129.873,"text":"如果說你這樣講法的話代表是說之後每換一個部長所有文化部的預算都重新審一次"},{"start":20130.888,"end":20155.796,"text":"不然怎麼會說當初編列預算的科目是這個樣子也經過立法院都通過今天文化部提出來的預算是先經過主計總處行政部門先控管一次之後在立法部門再控管一次然後科目跟項目都是確定之後結果因為一個部長突然覺得是說我上任然後我政策要轉彎結果我就變成是挪為他用7500萬欸不是7500塊欸"},{"start":20160.131,"end":20188.397,"text":"那還有啊不管是7500塊還是7500萬科目該怎麼使用就怎麼使用記不記得我們兩個禮拜前在這邊也在審查據的部分據的部分至少你說4000萬、5000萬的一個投資都還有經過審議會那時候是不是還講說經過審議會我們沒有辦法控管也是審議會大家逐案逐案的討論那結果今天有一個案件可以沒有經過審議會沒有經過相關的部分然後就直接來投入"},{"start":20189.602,"end":20214.413,"text":"我今天一樣喔對事不對人喔這個句好壞對錯我沒有評論因為文化是無價的但重點是說經過的這個程序如果說用這樣子程序不正義的方式任何人都沒有辦法接受啊然後剛部長而且部長你怎麼會今天來答詢然後到最後就講我不會用這樣的方式那不就是製程之前的部長的做法是錯的嗎"},{"start":20216.312,"end":20226.328,"text":"我們應該要有一些態度不要說懲罰到後面的人但是應該要針對之前濫用預算的部分這個行為我們要給予譴責以上謝謝"},{"start":20229.036,"end":20253.482,"text":"張雅琳委員,然後范芸委員我想簡單來分享一下因為我過去在行銷圈待了10年我跟部長做個科普好了就是說以前我們會包捷運廣告一天也是幾百幾千萬那為什麼?因為它很有一個話題性跟效果性跟議題的一個傳播性那我覺得部長到現在還搞不清楚這七千幾百萬我覺得可能我們是不是應該要進修一些相關的行銷知識為什麼大家會有不同的"},{"start":20254.002,"end":20272.159,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":20273.315,"end":20292.651,"text":"去年我有審這個預算嘛因為剛好洪孟楷委員跟柯震委員那時候不在就我不記得我們當時有質疑這個東西我剛剛找出來看他其實去年這個柯文明先生叫做補助及辦理演藝團隊表演藝術展演研討等等等等一大堆各種數位典藏等等及語言相關推廣活動等計畫"},{"start":20295.133,"end":20313.499,"text":"繼列等等等等很多好錢所以從使者部長的轉折我不認為這個有違反去年啊因為我們去年不記得有人細項問他他告訴我們是台元洋比賽完全沒有這個印象那所以我覺得在這個項目如果就是說去年他沒有那麼的細說一定要做什麼"},{"start":20314.019,"end":20338.717,"text":"那現在做的這個事情以這邊說明來講主要投注表演藝術相關從業人員也沒有排擠獎補助其他的費用而且網路上超過70萬人次看那我自己覺得這樣的台語以林一錦看過的我覺得效益可能遠超過假如去辦一些多元的小活動而且你就1624說實在我歷史很不好我現在永遠都記得1624的歷史意義"},{"start":20340.538,"end":20341.339,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20361.597,"end":20380.91,"text":"這是有點不太公平了謝謝范議員但是我從剛剛聽到現在其實沒有人批評史哲部長這件事情但是我們是在講政策的延續還有政策的轉彎那政策延續跟轉彎這件事情政策延續跟轉彎這件事情其實也不是現場委員說的也是文化部答詢的時候的報告那我想這個部分澄清一下"},{"start":20381.63,"end":20382.03,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":20404.901,"end":20413.944,"text":"目前主席接收到的就是林倩琪委員的減劣7500萬那凍結的部分能不能您再說清楚一點?您是要凍多少錢?我這邊那是凍這個額度的10%嗎?3000萬嗎?還是3000萬嗎?好,那我再重複一次林倩琪委員她的案子提是希望減劣7500萬然後凍結3000萬那其他的委員有沒有不同的意見?"},{"start":20434.383,"end":20436.344,"text":"江雅琳委員江雅琳委員"},{"start":20458.695,"end":20476.203,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":20476.303,"end":20476.463,"text":"林益錦議員林益錦議員紅夢凱議員"},{"start":20500.134,"end":20517.449,"text":"我會強烈要求剛剛部長其實已經講了如果說是你來使用的話你不會像這樣子來動用我希望你說到做到我們是不是能夠在這一個上面有一個附帶決議就是說你今天報上來抱歉"},{"start":20518.55,"end":20539.808,"text":"身為立法委員我還是強調大家要做藝術推廣要文化推廣我一定支持因為大家都是為台灣的文化努力但是我們不能透面自甘的說你告訴我的計畫沒有講得很清楚所以原本是做演講到最後你們去做戲劇然後我們還要幫你在那邊想"},{"start":20540.729,"end":20569.551,"text":"解套的方法抱歉這種唾棉自乾我沒有辦法做到而且講這樣的話我覺得連行政部門可能都會看不起立法部門說實在話如果說要用這個一個大框架然後說沒有講清楚所以我今天過的明明是A結果到最後我去做B然後結果我還可以自圓其說的話那這樣非常奇怪我希望今天部長提出來的預算要做什麼就做什麼所以是不是"},{"start":20571.336,"end":20599.062,"text":"動節的部分我們可以剛有一個一億有一個一千萬我們找一個折衷的部分我覺得可以接受但我要求是不是行政部門給我們一個附帶決議就是說省省的預算項目應該要名符其實不能由作濫用那還有啊如果說這個劇那麼好的話其實你年度預算就編出來啊你直接用專案的部分我要做七千五百萬這個歷史舞台劇你明年也可以啊"},{"start":20601.431,"end":20629.642,"text":"建國114年等到後年建國115年逢五逢十很好啊建國115年文化部要做一個歷史大劇一役明年編出來我們來支持找歌仔戲找我們台灣團體找所有的兒童劇大家一起來做但是你的項目要寫得清清楚楚好不好所以我覺得今天凍結剛剛倩琦委員已經很也"},{"start":20630.689,"end":20632.491,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20647.113,"end":20673.221,"text":"那部長請您慢慢的說好嗎其實我剛才講說1624我不會這樣做不表示我否定這個是因為我已經整個拿出一個對那個表演團體的那個支持那個支持的程度是我希望多出兩個品牌團隊而且列出出國的那個計畫然後台灣Top100隊全部的錢都比過去多還有地方團隊就是說我的意思我會這樣做不是說1624不好"},{"start":20675.282,"end":20676.383,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部"},{"start":20690.764,"end":20691.144,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20707.475,"end":20713.639,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20736.192,"end":20739.955,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20765.097,"end":20765.497,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":20786.175,"end":20793.098,"text":"我們現在就這樣子第7幕的部分一直是從210案到241案那我們就是凍結5000萬然後專案報告後使得解凍"},{"start":20802.301,"end":20805.182,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":20818.268,"end":20821.07,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":20839.841,"end":20848.066,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20868.257,"end":20869.938,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20891.673,"end":20893.595,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20911.872,"end":20914.674,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":20939.617,"end":20939.738,"text":"第249議案"},{"start":20956.18,"end":20980.52,"text":"現在在香港我們是沒有辦事處只剩下光華新聞文化中心還有一名僱員是唯一的文化交流儲藏我有點不太了解就是說我們現在這一筆預算一整年的預算是在處理這個據點的是辦公費用嗎還有這個香港僱員的租金月薪還是有其他事務性的一些活動要來去進行的這可不可以再做多點說明謝謝"},{"start":20988.411,"end":21004.267,"text":"秀寶委員謝謝主席在這一幕的部分是文化交流業務包含辦理在地文化國際化以及多面向的拓展文化外交在2022到2023的台灣文化創意產業發展年報裡面有顯示"},{"start":21006.949,"end":21011.27,"text":"在廣播電視產業、電影產業、工藝音樂表演藝術產業還有視覺藝術流行音樂文化內容產業廣告產品設計種種這些產業的外銷收入是正成長唯獨只有出版產業外銷收入是負成長"},{"start":21025.555,"end":21041.613,"text":"所以我們對於輔導出版業提升出版業這個外銷收入帶動這個產業發展的這個部分文化部是不是說在相關的這些策略相關的這些措施沒有有什麼地方是要欠缺值就是要再檢討的"},{"start":21043.135,"end":21044.795,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":21069.842,"end":21082.814,"text":"接受我們補助的這些國外出版社他應該提供銷售數據以及銷售分析這些資料來讓我們參考改善我國出版業外銷相關的政策因為既然我們有補助我們就必須要有拿到統據的"},{"start":21085.436,"end":21086.738,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21104.864,"end":21132.377,"text":"謝謝昭偉本席第248案是關於文化部駐紐約文化中心有疑似發生霸凌的案件那這個案件有非常多的報導包含這個單親或者是退件非常多次或者是這個羞辱他那精神狀況惡化體重暴增壓力增加等等那當然我想這個部長上任以後"},{"start":21133.778,"end":21155.797,"text":"有說本來說說口誤說是具名但是口誤後來說是具體陳述而不是具名但是我想事情到現在我剛還特地去確認看了一下沒有更新那10月28號文化部接獲申訴職場霸凌遲遲到11月28號才召開調查會議為什麼拖一個月的時間那什麼時候調查報告會正式出爐"},{"start":21161.221,"end":21182.57,"text":"我要在此跟部長表達我想我們有非常多的案件都不是在您上任以後的而是之前的那我想部長您應該要秉持著要讓陽光照進文化部有一些案件雖然您會覺得哎呀這個但是您一定要把它弄清楚"},{"start":21183.01,"end":21183.751,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":21201.502,"end":21201.682,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":21221.138,"end":21239.252,"text":"這個案其實在我看起來我其實非常重視我也覺得非常嚴重而且呢這個是在11月26號媒體披露以後大家才開始去追這個案子去重視這個案子但是既然已經在媒體披露之前其實我們就有收到這個呃他們這個陳情嘛投訴嘛"},{"start":21240.913,"end":21263.643,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21263.643,"end":21264.244,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21289.987,"end":21317.051,"text":"其他委員還有沒有?如果沒有的話我們就請文化部來做統一的回答那拜託這次回答千萬不要再漏掉陳秀寶委員的好嗎?首先先針對柯志文委員的這個槌尋事實上我們的駐外經費都是各個部會各自編列需求然後移給外交部所以經費不會重疊因為外交部大概用在政務跟僑務那我們是用在文化事務"},{"start":21317.651,"end":21320.232,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21340,"end":21341.481,"text":"議員主管國立文化基金附議員主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21363.072,"end":21364.173,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21388.255,"end":21390.196,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21418.067,"end":21421.009,"text":"獎項二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21436.216,"end":21451.631,"text":"港澳跟兩岸這方面的預算來講它的額度也是比較保守的這是第二個部分第三個陳秀寶委員所垂詢的就是我們的文化內容在出版方面負成長然後沒有統計數字的這件事情"},{"start":21453.012,"end":21472.483,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":21472.943,"end":21473.544,"text":"議員主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21494.565,"end":21515.52,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21516.65,"end":21519.251,"text":"第5個問題也是主席所提到的"},{"start":21543.739,"end":21561.961,"text":"先跟委員大概整體做報告第一個客人提到了這個跟經濟部的關係事實上因為經濟部是以企業館參加所以他不能使用國民並且他是在這個孟州的裡面那所以文化部的部分是直接在孟州之外是在大阪市有另外的場地跟另外的場合所以他的預算是跟經濟部是完全分裂的"},{"start":21562.876,"end":21563.716,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21586.127,"end":21590.028,"text":"第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第2、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21612.937,"end":21615.658,"text":"陳四鴻、鬼地方、楊雙子、房司齊等,提供數字的部分,我們一定會要求來做收集,來做產業的後續監督。另外針對霸凌案部分,跟委員做說明,霸凌案我們是10月28號接貨,"},{"start":21633.063,"end":21649.889,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21649.889,"end":21667.21,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21667.29,"end":21667.91,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21695.464,"end":21697.548,"text":"就是這星期,我們就會發布這個80案的調查報告內容。以上。好,謝謝。那這樣我們來處理那個在第8幕的洞結束。張雅玲委員。"},{"start":21708.097,"end":21725.589,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":21725.669,"end":21725.949,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":21745.683,"end":21747.044,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21768.288,"end":21772.631,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21798.529,"end":21817.358,"text":"關於金額的部分,我問了很多問題,其實很多委員都有關心,出版文化外交的部分,那是不是就動500萬?好,陳培委員提案動500萬,那有沒有其他的委員有意見?100,他們對著我許願說100,好我可以接受,看其他委員能不能接受。其他委員有沒有不同的意見?"},{"start":21819.789,"end":21822.611,"text":"第8目動結100萬書面報告以後使得動之改組決議的案子244案、245案、246案、27案、249案、250案我們繼續進行第9目文藏文化中心"},{"start":21847.049,"end":21851.273,"text":"對,盟戰文化中心業務253案到256案在現場誰在?郭育晴委員來,育晴"},{"start":21865.995,"end":21884.447,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案二、繼續審查114年度"},{"start":21893.012,"end":21917.91,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":21917.99,"end":21919.231,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":21946.186,"end":21964.991,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":21965.353,"end":21984.535,"text":"好我想大家都對這一幕非常的關心喔那我想剛剛大家論述大概都不一樣喔那可是大家都很著注於在這一個部分那我想這以博碩士的一個論文網為例以關鍵字來看喔蒙古或西藏或者是蒙藏的論文主題研究甚少"},{"start":21984.855,"end":21986.816,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":22007.961,"end":22011.324,"text":"主席,跟各位委員報告,我就從253案開始回應,有關羅委員講的鼓勵蒙藏文化的發展,尤其是講述大學研究生撰寫論文,事實上我們有作業要點"},{"start":22032.925,"end":22033.605,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22049.051,"end":22054.996,"text":"提出說我們兩年兩年內一定會完成大概是這樣那另外有關主席講到的那個我們中心委員的那個涉及共諜案事實上這件事情呢從去年我們也是就是很努力積極在處理那現在我們就是更加的謹慎尤其我們到文化部以後我們盡量以宣揚蒙藏文化為主那同時對我們的一些機密文件的監控呢也更加嚴格"},{"start":22077.873,"end":22081.299,"text":"事實上能夠涉及也只有幾位同仁跟主管"},{"start":22085.356,"end":22090.96,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22115.512,"end":22115.652,"text":"蘿婷文委員的300萬"},{"start":22134.946,"end":22136.707,"text":"主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":22161.738,"end":22180.692,"text":"好了 那就微微動吧 那就五十萬然後那個第九目我們動五十萬然後書面報告使得動值我們進入到第二五四給主決議我們進入到第十目非營業特種基金來 那個柯真委員然後范瑩委員這個我大概是第二五八案那我這目前的館長還是代理的嗎"},{"start":22189.867,"end":22213.575,"text":"為什麼?因為我們這個從黃光南館長到現在是9年嘛,黃永川是4年嘛,那我們張玉騰館長是7年嘛,你之後全部都是代理辦就一個月,我幫你查出來了,一年代理一個月,11個月,一年5個月,11個月,代理5個月,到底發生什麼事啊?我們的歷史博物館到底是發生什麼事情?我為什麼要特別提出來,你們歷史博物館以前是"},{"start":22214.355,"end":22215.016,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22232.299,"end":22254.202,"text":"這很可惜啊所以為什麼我要凍結就是我也不曉得你們歷史博物館到底未來要做些什麼如果都沒有辦法讓我們有看到不要說跟過去的模式啦你看看過去這樣子的一個風華絕道到現在完全沉寂了那你一定勢必要有一些作為啊否則我們給這麼多機會做什麼好不好館長你現在是正式的館長做多久了"},{"start":22256.203,"end":22268.626,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":22273.874,"end":22294.751,"text":"我這個凍結案其實蠻單純的就是之前有質詢過那個小野部長他那時候有同意說會去評估了解一下就是我們台灣其實我們婦女跟性別人權的表現算是亞洲就是很強的那可是我們都沒有一個就是婦女性別人權的一個管"},{"start":22296.032,"end":22318.643,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":22319.244,"end":22335.022,"text":"但我想部長不是這樣因為當時部長回的時候很誠懇所以我這可以小小動我知道這不要影響到你們的人權管、國防紀念管、中央紀念堂管等但是為了表達我們對這件事情追蹤我就跟柯之恩的一起小小動這樣如果這邊要動"},{"start":22337.71,"end":22338.651,"text":"主管國立文化機構"},{"start":22354.332,"end":22375.462,"text":"我代表那個基金這邊做個說明跟范委員做個說明那當然因為這個女性的博物館知識體大他可能需要慢慢的籌備我們再慢慢的來處理可是我們現在有先請人權館、中正經驗堂跟國務經理館這三個基金的單位都特別的去針對女性的這個議題"},{"start":22377.403,"end":22378.904,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":22400.925,"end":22401.125,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":22423.005,"end":22447.153,"text":"發揮我們研究人員的這個能量由研究人員來全權的策展那我們目前明年的檔期也已經規劃好了我們大概明年的第一季會跟青萬亞籍來做一個合作的一個展再來我們也跟日本的東京的博物館也準備要做一個蘭花的一個特展另外就是我們也會針對"},{"start":22449.335,"end":22450.216,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":22465.455,"end":22467.377,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22481.587,"end":22482.948,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22504.978,"end":22506.539,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":22520.421,"end":22520.461,"text":"主席"},{"start":22539.199,"end":22546.407,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22559.753,"end":22577.147,"text":"282案按照修正文字後修正通過283案、284案照案通過285案按照修正文字後修正通過286案到288案照案通過289案按照修正文字後修正通過290案、291案照案通過"},{"start":22581.651,"end":22601.412,"text":"292案到295案按照修正文字後修正通過296案照案通過297案、298案按照修正文字後修正通過299案到303案照案通過304案、305案按照修正文字後修正通過"},{"start":22602.853,"end":22628.708,"text":"306案到309案照案通過310案、311案按照修正文字後修正通過312案照案通過313案、314案照修正文字後修正通過315案照案通過316案按照修正文字後修正通過317案到319案照案通過320案、321案按照修正文字後修正通過"},{"start":22630.031,"end":22634.354,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22644.506,"end":22647.368,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22663.237,"end":22665.879,"text":"第二跟第三,你們到底在研究什麼跟規劃什麼?"},{"start":22685.23,"end":22711.036,"text":"很多研究規劃師或研究規劃處或研究規劃科的東西都變雜業務科的雜物這樣我那個主決議我改一下再……可不可以簽委員?有啊!我們現在還在改啦!改完了?改完了嗎?請委員看看我們再修正一下看如何可以委員就幫忙我們就請再進一步提出這樣子內容過於空泛"},{"start":22714.897,"end":22722.002,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":22734.33,"end":22738.972,"text":"事實上這兩頁其實就是外管的業務費用。對,就是我們17個外管要用這一筆錢。事實上我們增加了4個外管,錢還減了60萬。"},{"start":22759.838,"end":22761.08,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22777.915,"end":22780.837,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":22794.303,"end":22798.125,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23209.762,"end":23212.283,"text":"單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23245.745,"end":23272.648,"text":"好,我們現在開始繼續審查我們進入到文化資產局的稅入那稅入的部分322案是我的案子那這個跟文化部有溝通好了我們就是增列200萬所以稅入的部分我們增列200萬那我們接下來審文化資產局的稅出第一幕的部分323案也是主席的案子那這一個案子我改組決議"},{"start":23274.4,"end":23282.506,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23292.614,"end":23296.858,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構"},{"start":23308.029,"end":23325.964,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":23326.064,"end":23327.625,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23342.07,"end":23344.433,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部的基金附"},{"start":23365.894,"end":23366.534,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23392.568,"end":23393.489,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23413.265,"end":23415.026,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23441.118,"end":23464.279,"text":"然而雖然有兩所大學是有古蹟專業的科系但是好像對於這個未來我們這個文化部所條例的裡面要對於文化資產對應的實踐計畫我是沒有看到很具體的一個方式了所以我要請文化部透過凍結提出說明但是說明成功的話我或許可以考慮改成組決議因為我真的覺得我就是要表達這樣的一個態度好不好"},{"start":23466.713,"end":23481.108,"text":"格魯丁委員本席339、345兩岸是運用科技在文資保存上的應用我已經講過很多了比如聖母院有3D的保存才能夠重建等等"},{"start":23481.749,"end":23501.647,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23503.084,"end":23503.224,"text":"陳佩玉議員"},{"start":23522.802,"end":23524.464,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":23543.942,"end":23544.903,"text":"案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23570.123,"end":23573.006,"text":"主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":23590.923,"end":23591.183,"text":"陳秀寶委員陳秀寶委員陳秀寶委員"},{"start":23618.61,"end":23625.135,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23644.651,"end":23651.836,"text":"關於文化路徑推動的業務。關於文化路徑推動的業務。關於文化路徑推動的業務。關於文化路徑推動的業務。關於文化路徑推動的業務。"},{"start":23673.132,"end":23674.754,"text":"第13、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23694.514,"end":23695.534,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":23724.834,"end":23726.106,"text":"我們除了說我們"},{"start":23727.643,"end":23728.323,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":23756.92,"end":23758.321,"text":"議員主管國立文化資產修復議員主管國立文化資產修復議員主管國立文化資產修復"},{"start":23776.553,"end":23776.593,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":23798.707,"end":23799.668,"text":"關於文資修復人才培育問題"},{"start":23826.949,"end":23848.855,"text":"那這個部分本席在質詢的時候一直有提到那當然文字局有說有訂定的這個傳統匠師美麗心之的這個3922圓但是這個部分它會變成是它雖然是地板你們覺得它它是訂了一個地板架但是會不會變成是天花板我覺得還是有一個要注意的事項那因為我們鹿港真的有很多這樣子相關的文化資產"},{"start":23849.855,"end":23874.65,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23875.83,"end":23896.255,"text":"台灣因為我們特殊的國際這個關係沒有加入相關的聯合國組織所以我們要用世界遺產潛力點的方式來做一些相關的一些我們的景點的規劃那雖然說我們沒有辦法因為就是我們因為特殊的問題涉度的這些國際關係沒有辦法被評選"},{"start":23897.875,"end":23910.694,"text":"但是我們其實是擁有足以成為世界遺產的這些地點以及文化但是呢我們文化部從92年到99年有選出了像阿里山森林鐵路等等有18處台灣世界遺產潛力點"},{"start":23914.299,"end":23941.717,"text":"並且也依據這個世界遺產公約的這些作業指南來完成這個賺你這個架構但是從113年4月3號指我們這些提報的日期已經歷經有的是十幾年有的甚至有到二十幾年有三個前例點還沒有辦理完成這個文本的賺你作業"},{"start":23943.038,"end":23966.837,"text":"另外有四個前例點僅完成文本前期的研究作業所以我們對於這個臺灣世界遺產前例點的這個推動是不是說我們所需要的資源不足還是說我們的這個積極度不夠這個部分我也希望說你們文字局針對這個部分有等下說明以上好謝謝那再來有提案的是張雅琳委員"},{"start":23975.876,"end":23977.397,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":23992.385,"end":24006.332,"text":"文資局跟我說明的是說因為現在的文化路徑是最後一年了可以在研擬下一期的文化路徑的時候納入不移植所以這部分我是可以接受也可以並按來處理那其實文資局也不用特別寫報告只要到時候給我計劃書就可以了謝謝謝謝雅玲委員然後主席的指示謝謝因為這樣我們也很清楚然後那個廷偉有嗎好羅廷偉委員"},{"start":24021.876,"end":24026.539,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24041.169,"end":24068.234,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24068.234,"end":24091.357,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24091.617,"end":24093.619,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":24102.299,"end":24125.719,"text":"主席、各位委員、部長、次長、文資局就簡單報告一下離基委員提到的政治受難者墓園的這個案子我個人先前也過去看過我們跟台北市政府我想我們會來跟他協調怎麼樣能夠把它處理得好一點另外關於指標的部分我們跟國家人權博物館看怎麼樣能夠設立相關的指示標示系統"},{"start":24126.42,"end":24132.483,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24153.934,"end":24180.431,"text":"再來是我們在國家文化資產保存獎裡頭以前沒有表揚傳統匠師現在前一陣子已經把它修正了有表揚傳統匠師還給獎金50萬這個大概在最近就會在陣陣去執行另外就是我們怎麼樣把傳統匠師現在年紀過去是五、六十歲以上的佔了百分之七十幾但我們最近三年來培育了130位剛好倒過來年齡往下降"},{"start":24180.731,"end":24181.773,"text":"平均42歲而且是50歲以下的佔了77%"},{"start":24185.751,"end":24210.896,"text":"對,這個當然就是要因為他過去那種師讀制要3年4個月那我們現在已經加強在培訓不管在這個培訓量能另外還有我們往下的是增加了我們技職專校的那些老師的這些增能的學習還有他的學生我們有那個所謂他的生涯體驗還有我們小小將士國中小另外就是我們現在最近才跟7個大專院校的校長在談是不是可以在正規教育裡面"},{"start":24212.017,"end":24213.359,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24225.373,"end":24231.139,"text":"關於科技AI的技術還有3D技術怎麼樣在文化資產裡面3D技術的應用我們過去在這麼多年來對我們國定"},{"start":24242.21,"end":24245.413,"text":"國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化資產基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化資產基金附"},{"start":24271.374,"end":24275.717,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附。第三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附。"},{"start":24302.336,"end":24327.783,"text":"另外陳秀白委員還有提到就是關於文化路徑文化路徑我們現在目前是事辦的五個路徑就是多元族群還有產業文化資產我們現在已經都有一個過去的論述還有的架構推動模式都已經在逐漸形成了所以剛提到說要跟宗教結合或者說再跟不義子結合我想這個東西論述架構我們這樣成型之後未來都很有可能都可以往這方面來發展"},{"start":24329.477,"end":24332.3,"text":"那繼續說跟各部會的協調裡面我們是在過去推動裡面是由下而上根據實務推動上的相關議題我們已經召開了14場的跨部會像那個領務署、農業還有這個相關單位都是屬於三級機關裡面真的實務問題裡面我們開過14場諮詢會議解決實際的問題"},{"start":24350.196,"end":24372.052,"text":"另外陳秀凡我還特別提到龍山市上次那個經驗教訓就是跟團隊跟在地溝通不足我們還特別為了這個事情真的是跟在地真的去進行溝通而且修改還有增訂了公聽會說明會的一些辦理的這些基本的要原則發案給各縣市政府希望不要再有這樣的發生情形發生再來可能到最後了"},{"start":24374.389,"end":24374.969,"text":"關心文化資產場域無障礙設施無障礙設施無障礙設施"},{"start":24401.036,"end":24421.266,"text":"世界遺產潛力點有三個潛力點和四個有潛力點,一個文本不夠,還有前期調查研究,這個我們會來進行溝通。我們現在部長已經主持了推動會,已經召開了好幾次推動會,我們現在用集中火力在一個阿里山林鐵,其他的我們是保溫計畫,我們會持續跟其他的這些世界遺產潛力點來保持聯繫,給予必要的協助。"},{"start":24422.964,"end":24424.765,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24440.13,"end":24458.022,"text":"我們已經辦理所謂的使用執照的變更預計明年2月第1前我們會把這個變更設計的規劃設計圖送到台中市的督發局督發局那邊我們會再跟他協調能夠儘速的能夠通過的話我們會增加這個停車位而且還有第二階段我想委員的提點我們會持續的進行以上"},{"start":24460.516,"end":24483.619,"text":"主席這邊也要補充一下因為我有326、328、335跟342四個案子但是我只有兩個點要提醒一下文化部那就是在我的328的案子裡面我們有看到我們現在目前還有2856處考古遺址還沒有被調查而且我們現在能做這個工作只有11個單位能做我覺得考古人才的嚴重不足"},{"start":24484.359,"end":24510.236,"text":"包括我在335案文資修復的人才不足以及我們在資料庫上面我們看到6月份提供的數據3,237人但是網站上面卻只有2,617人有這個落差所以我想文資修復跟我們考古遺址相關的人員都是嚴重不足但是有一個問題我必須要特別講一下因為像我們鐵路地下化也是有挖到相關的遺址"},{"start":24512.858,"end":24514.979,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24534.128,"end":24535.189,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24550.365,"end":24551.446,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":24576.84,"end":24587.585,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24606.061,"end":24610.603,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":24630.019,"end":24640.202,"text":"三二七案、三三二案、三三四案、三四零案、三四六案、三三零案、三三一案、三三八案、三四四案"},{"start":24641.431,"end":24641.932,"text":"327案、332、334、340、346、330、331、338以及344案。"},{"start":24659.554,"end":24669.798,"text":"我們處理組決議的部分,347案照案通過。348案到356案按照修正文字後修正通過。357案、358案照案通過。"},{"start":24676.513,"end":24679.715,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24696.411,"end":24697.051,"text":"影視及流行音樂產業局稅出案361案主席主決議362案到374案張雅琳委員"},{"start":24723.66,"end":24748.268,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24748.549,"end":24754.299,"text":"議事局提供我相關的安全介護的調查和統計數據。"},{"start":24756.992,"end":24762.313,"text":"議案367是電影輔導金新增動畫組。議案367是電影輔導金新增動畫組。議案367是電影輔導金新增動畫組。議案367是電影輔導金新增動畫組。議案367是電影輔導金新增動畫組。議案367是電影輔導金新增動畫組。"},{"start":24786.739,"end":24790.881,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附本期是365案。其實365案就到年底的時候大家都會檢討我們相關的一個行業的表現那其中電影行業在2023年的時候總台灣的電影票房是76億左右而國片佔了12億但在今年"},{"start":24815.872,"end":24831.754,"text":"總電影票房是62億當然整體的大環境全世界在今年的電影票房也都略為下降這是一個趨勢可是台灣的國片的部分是下滑了40%只剩差不多7.2億的一個票房"},{"start":24832.415,"end":24861.23,"text":"那我們想更重要的是說在今年有許多的這個國片的一個電影真的破六千萬票房的只有三部破四千萬的只有五部所以我想在這個部分已經不是在用疫情來去做一個大家不進入戲院這樣子來當藉口因為其實疫情已經過去兩年而且在疫情期間反而我們看到國片是逆勢成長因為很多的外國片很多好萊塢的電影反而是沒有去大規模的發行上市"},{"start":24861.51,"end":24863.332,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24881.681,"end":24882.041,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":24900.61,"end":24904.754,"text":"在疫情期間,很多國外的電影說疫情影響就是可能延後或取消上市的原因所以在那個段期間,我們國片的票房反而是成長的"},{"start":24924.99,"end":24948.263,"text":"但是因為疫情過後其實我們國人的觀影習慣改變以及串流平台的影響其實全球現在也面臨說是這個觀影人口流失的這個問題那影視局你們這邊來說明的時候是有說有強調說關於長片的輔導金增加以及綠色通道的協助向國片的占比已經有提升那其實還是需要蠻大的努力"},{"start":24949.104,"end":24959.306,"text":"這個案子我可以不堅持我可以改成主決議但是我希望影視局這邊可以持續探究我們該如何加強國片票房的相關的這些方法以上"},{"start":24961.189,"end":24983.555,"text":"好謝謝秀寶請吳佩儀委員這一幕我沒有提案但是我有一個主決議391案那跟大家一樣關心的是我們台灣的本土的電影的票房過去幾年來有下降但是我們針對內容這個制播的支持跟輔導應當是在持續增加的所以希望影視局可以來做一個整體的"},{"start":24986.237,"end":25004.614,"text":"檢討然後在尤其是國片的行銷通路上面我們要提出具體的計劃跟方案來協助本土已經有競爭力的那隱世內容產業可以有更多的通路曝光謝謝謝謝下一位是南路委員葛如君委員"},{"start":25007.54,"end":25034.405,"text":"好 謝謝召委那本席這邊第363案呢其實也是國片票房還有未來的發展那我想我再重申一次我是小野部長的粉絲那小野部長您80年代是臺灣新電影浪潮的重要推手之一這個我們都是不會忘記的但是您現在已經不只是創作者了您也是部長所以您要帶著整個團隊一起往前進那您也上任一段時間了"},{"start":25035.285,"end":25051.798,"text":"台灣國片這個未來的發展方向到底是什麼?您有沒有具體的規劃?本席是不太相信單靠文化部講補助電影公會來辦理暑期、秋冬、電影宣傳活動就可以找回國片的票房跟活力"},{"start":25052.498,"end":25073.006,"text":"那我想真的是全國國人都在期待我相信您自己也很期待就是到底作為過去能夠推動的現在有沒有一些新的做法在新的時代、新的環境、新的條件之下有沒有可能帶領台灣的電影來重返榮光這是本席要就教育部長的謝謝好 謝謝那前面還有哪位委員"},{"start":25078.757,"end":25083.54,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管文化基金附"},{"start":25101.932,"end":25126.545,"text":"自從疫情之後真的是整個的一個觀影習慣都改變了所以真的才會造成整個全球的一個票房都目前真的是很低迷的情況那局裡這裡也很憂心所以我們也跟產業有一直在討論如何來振興那我們目前有幾個做法第一個就是呢我們還是要擴大我們整個一個那個產製的讓它能夠產製多元的題材還有最重要是要有好看的內容"},{"start":25127.005,"end":25127.485,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25156.963,"end":25157.984,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":25186.783,"end":25208.234,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":25209.889,"end":25229.684,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":25231.694,"end":25255.921,"text":"我的可以改組權益369謝謝好謝謝來洪峰凱委員不是說今天造劣就是開心啦部長很實在話講造劣用的是人民的納稅錢那如果說明年國片持續低迷那然後咧我們再另外一個大家再講另外一個理由然後明年再造劣"},{"start":25256.977,"end":25258.598,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25272.386,"end":25297.965,"text":"票房變好明年也有幾個商業大片啊我知道啊九把刀的功夫明年要上啊那個黃衣小飛俠明年要上啊這個都是看起來是IP會相對容易中的嘛那如果說明年上國片能夠回來那當然好啊但不是說我們今天這樣子照列就代表是說支持然後我們有凍結就代表不支持不是這個樣子我們希望的都是把事情做好我比較具體啦"},{"start":25298.826,"end":25300.368,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25321.59,"end":25323.772,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部的基金附"},{"start":25344.403,"end":25348.165,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25365.273,"end":25381.079,"text":"欸等一下我們要尊重嘛那洪柏凱委員欸不是啊我不是我的案子原本是5億多我凍結10%欸還是我要堅持我的部分我想不需要這樣子吧"},{"start":25382.571,"end":25397.426,"text":"好不好我覺得重點在於是說我們希望督促我們能夠做好事你今年國片的票房下滑40%這也是數據這是不真的事實那我不用急需強調這一個部分嘛凍結1000萬然後明年書面報告時的凍結這樣可以嗎"},{"start":25401.111,"end":25402.111,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":25425.632,"end":25444.802,"text":"我們進行到第三幕,廣播電視事業輔導。案子從375案到382案。我們先從前面的,其實這個案子沒有很多,那我們舉手發言好了。田岩的委員。張雅琳委員,然後洪孟凱委員,陳秀寶委員,然後葛如軍委員。"},{"start":25446.598,"end":25447.138,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":25475.12,"end":25477.821,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":25500.333,"end":25509.99,"text":"讓我們台劇每年的產出有更多的通路上架的機會讓更多的觀眾跟消費者能夠看到我們台劇的一個展出以上謝謝"},{"start":25513.439,"end":25529.596,"text":"陳秀寶委員關於匯聚台流文化黑潮的相關的業務其實台流文化黑潮中我們最重要的是我們希望說扶植台劇然後可以成為國際台劇"},{"start":25531.318,"end":25550.643,"text":"近年來有越來越多優秀的文本及台劇出現但是在國際間台劇的占比還是不高我們應該也要思考說在質跟量之間我們要如何確立台劇在國際間的地位我們也都希望說台劇在黑桃計畫的強力扶植下可以有推進到世界的階梯有這個機會"},{"start":25552.023,"end":25577.148,"text":"所以本席也希望說我們可以跟更多的單位來合作還有像OTT平台、文策院相關的投資希望說大家一起讓一起努力讓台劇可以更加發光發熱那這個案子的部分呢因為你們有來說明其實我可以不堅持我可以改主決議但是我們影視局如何要再多加思考就是相關的推廣推廣的這個管道我希望你們要多用心以上好謝謝秀寶葛如君委員"},{"start":25583.701,"end":25587.744,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":25602.132,"end":25630.022,"text":"甚至有簡體中文或者一些相關的不夠多元性以及符合本地性的這個狀況那我自己也有podcast我就沒有報名因為想要做個迴避但是我也希望說這是一個好事讓podcast項目podcaster可以來做這樣的一個獎項報名但整個流程以及相關的這個軟體還有這個這個體驗也希望這個相關的這個部會應該要有改進的這個報告跟做法謝謝"},{"start":25634.016,"end":25659.87,"text":"主席這裡也有376萬跟380案那文化部我來做個說明待會跟所有委員的案子一起並案處理在第三幕的部分的話我們因為這裡有簡列也有凍結就是委員提的案子裡面有簡列數的也有凍結數的那是不是哪一位委員我們可以具體來提案一下"},{"start":25662.813,"end":25675.462,"text":"抱歉因為379案我還是蠻希望就是影視局來回應我一下到底如何我們會如何在契約上面實際的去要求落實我們轉播的時候會呈現台語字幕"},{"start":25677.562,"end":25678.002,"text":"委員報告委員報告"},{"start":25697.759,"end":25698.58,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":25721.823,"end":25725.826,"text":"國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25753.513,"end":25760.316,"text":"兩、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":25781.912,"end":25782.512,"text":"但怎麼會只出現簡體中文沒有繁體中文?"},{"start":25805.936,"end":25808.937,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構"},{"start":25829.235,"end":25852.358,"text":"稍微我們是整目嘛對不對對 第三目那整目的部分剛剛你也提到有凍結兩千、四千、六千的部分那我想我們還是一樣支持啦我們就凍結兩千啦好不好選最低這樣子好 那我想這個應該是可以啦沒什麼問題那我頒布我們在第三目的部分我們就凍結兩千萬然後書面報告之後使得解凍"},{"start":25856.04,"end":25856.06,"text":"主決議379、382"},{"start":25862.501,"end":25884.114,"text":"我們繼續進行第四幕流行音樂產業輔導這個是從383案到390案我們從這邊開始有提案的委員好了張雅玲委員陳秀寶委員那390案跟上面的一樣就是金曲獎是不是也有同樣簽署相關的合約如果有的話也是1月底之前提供給我的話我可以改組決議謝謝"},{"start":25886.514,"end":25895.497,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":25910.921,"end":25936.904,"text":"顯見就是我們影視局針對金曲獎的辦理的程序應該要有更嚴謹的這個程序而且必須持續的強化辦理金曲獎的相關的SOP因為金曲獎是許多詞曲創作者的夢想也是有關於我們樂壇擁有解讀聽眾的這個地位當金曲獎出包的時候不僅僅是民眾會覺得很荒謬那相關出席及得獎的創作者都會覺得是不被尊重的"},{"start":25937.464,"end":25958.72,"text":"所以本席希望說進去講的相關程序應該是要有強有力的SOP來進行規範並且應該制定出就責扣款的這個明確的規範讓我覺得說在主辦的單位應該記取就是各種的經驗是講不好聽就記取各種的教訓應該好好的監督這些所承包的這個廠商不能再犯這樣子的錯誤以上好謝謝秀寶欽羅廷威委員"},{"start":25966.001,"end":25966.261,"text":"主管國立文化機構"},{"start":25987.222,"end":26010.408,"text":"我們先講經營獎的一個既定規則提名者須於規定期限內完成相關資料提交預期不受理且無適當人選的時候應公開該獎項的從缺本年度特別貢獻獎在原提名程序結束後臨時更改頒獎的安排未通知相關的提名者及剔除原有名單並另行安排明顯的未遵循原本的規範"},{"start":26011.568,"end":26026.983,"text":"提名者作為重要的音樂界人士卻未獲任何的通知便被臨時移除名單或更改安排,對參與者非常不尊重,嚴重影響音樂界對金音獎的認同感與支持度。"},{"start":26028.264,"end":26048.738,"text":"經營獎亦在表揚音樂界知名的人士與作品核心的精神就是促進音樂文化的一個進步跟傳承我想其實此事件的一個處理方式屬於嚴重的行政疏失我想這個公信力也當然無存所以我是提三減五百萬凍結一千萬那待會跟大家一起討論好 謝謝那林慶喜委員"},{"start":26059.329,"end":26060.15,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立"},{"start":26075.341,"end":26102.572,"text":"相關的演唱會都是以年輕人的喜好為主流這個也是我其實也要提醒的但是在吳偉仁這邊對於壯世代現在的內容產業的市場是沒有屬於他們的空間那最重要的就是說希望文化部承諾在以後在推流行音樂的部分必須要注意每一代每一個世代的需求與技藝而不要在現在社會的氛圍裡面施橫"},{"start":26110.625,"end":26133.241,"text":"還是請文化部這邊逐一回覆我來說明一下有關張雅玲委員提的台語政治就是在金曲獎裡面的台語政治這部分我們因為來不及在合約納入但是我們有在工作會議上已經要求對方要做這件事這個整個會議紀錄也都會把它放進去他們也承諾會做這件事情所以這沒問題"},{"start":26134.002,"end":26152.995,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":26153.115,"end":26153.676,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26177.339,"end":26204.095,"text":"然後評審委員可以提名這是第一次開放一般民眾可以推薦所以這是一個雙軌制那因為第一次的關係可能在在那個在時程上可能沒有掌握好所以來不及在那個入圍的記者會上公佈但是我們一切都依照規定辦理而且所有的參展參賽的那個同意書都有獲得所以這個部分的可能是有點誤會那以後我們會改進"},{"start":26205.196,"end":26225.009,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26225.209,"end":26225.75,"text":"單位預算案有關文化基金附"},{"start":26240.246,"end":26240.506,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26266.888,"end":26290.134,"text":"好 謝謝那我們第四幕來處理我們有沒有委員具體提出我們凍結或者是簡列的數目羅廷輝委員然後陳秀寶委員好剛剛有說明我可以接受那簡列的部分我可以不用那但是凍結的部分我們還是希望能夠有一個數字以示警惕那後續的一個具體書面報告使得動之那我這邊大概提500萬"},{"start":26292.355,"end":26295.816,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26327.09,"end":26338.478,"text":"好 我們來處理主決議的部分喔391案照案通過392案到394案按照文字修正後修正通過395案照案通過我們繼續國立傳統藝術中心那先看說出的部分羅廷偉委員然後林倩琪委員我看一下"},{"start":26355.109,"end":26357.41,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26370.655,"end":26383.94,"text":"我這邊所提的是因為沒有編列科目預算而是臨時動資文化部的一個公務預算包括視覺級表演藝術的一個策劃與發展向下的一個表演藝術輔導的一個推動自應7500萬令由國立傳統藝術中心的公務預算有一個"},{"start":26391.263,"end":26396.468,"text":"傳統藝術展演交流推廣計劃支應1196萬。除未正式程序之外,採限制性招標,試圖規避預算監督,且兩天消耗耗資8600多萬。"},{"start":26413.101,"end":26434.948,"text":"愛樂文化基金會與夢中人文創公司各領超過3000萬打理周邊的事務表演者的酬勞僅只有700餘萬顯見資源分配適合以及執行的過程透明度我覺得可以再更好恐有損公共利益我這邊是提凍結二分之一但是沒關係待會我們大家一起來並動一起來討論以上"},{"start":26440.141,"end":26461.959,"text":"謝謝天偉、倩熙文人好,謝謝昭偉那個傳譯中心也是蠻倒楣的那這也是過去的這個共業啦那剛才天偉這邊也在講了一次那傳譯大概在這整個8600多萬呢花了第一年400然後第二年700多那但是你們真正的做法應該是"},{"start":26463.18,"end":26463.34,"text":"推動傳統藝術推動傳統藝術推動傳統藝術推動傳統藝術"},{"start":26480.285,"end":26484.248,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26511.977,"end":26519.452,"text":"提委這個部分我就尊重你了這個部分有沒有需要回應"},{"start":26520.914,"end":26521.074,"text":"傳譯中心"},{"start":26545.646,"end":26546.486,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26572.532,"end":26575.435,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26602.159,"end":26625.811,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26627.13,"end":26631.274,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26644.694,"end":26647.175,"text":"單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26672.26,"end":26676.824,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26704.753,"end":26706.034,"text":"2014年執行預算的部分其實並沒有到那麼的"},{"start":26726.545,"end":26752.52,"text":"時間 尤其是因為我們可能有展期的部分那其中在下半年反而是上半年的部分你的分配數沒有辦法有效的一個執行完畢那一樣我們想說那這樣子會不會明年也會發生類似的事情所以我們建議說是不是先凍結部分的預算那如果說你在檔期是下半年的話那就是上半年解凍之後那下半年再來運用以上謝謝"},{"start":26754.019,"end":26761.746,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":26781.783,"end":26789.069,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管"},{"start":26810.442,"end":26811.864,"text":"司法部長司法部長"},{"start":26829.182,"end":26846.75,"text":"還有是不是可以檢視一下就是跟一般的所謂的這個媒合的狀況因為我們看到這個會員是277位但是只有15件是有符合這個合作的需求這個原因到底是什麼那可以精進我可以改成主決議沒問題但是給我一個比較完整的說明好嗎"},{"start":26847.15,"end":26847.31,"text":"主決議主決議主決議"},{"start":26872.595,"end":26897.211,"text":"好 謝謝主席那在這一案裡面我談到了這個公益中心的這個短中長期計劃然後也感謝公益中心這邊有來做一些說明那我這邊提個幾點說明的那個不好意思上週跟公益中心對不起已經到這邊了那個上週跟你們談的那個有一些資料還沒補齊麻煩你在那個會後把它補齊"},{"start":26898.012,"end":26914.701,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":26914.801,"end":26914.981,"text":"公益遷徑"},{"start":26945.302,"end":26946.564,"text":"主任主席"},{"start":26960.041,"end":26983.54,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有部長大家好那我是工業中心的主任那我就針對剛才郭委員特別提到的有關我們的這個材料的這個數據的部分因為我想這個是我們在112到115的這個中長程計劃裡面希望能夠把所有的材料可以逐步的把它在線上把它建置起來我想在"},{"start":26984.321,"end":26999.072,"text":"工業的發展裡面非常重要的就是工料工序工法跟工具的這個的發展那特別是在工料的部分因為工藝的這個產業的使用到材料部分有非常多至少我這邊切斷一下我幫主席講一下那個你就著重點這樣"},{"start":27006.456,"end":27024.505,"text":"所以我們現在目前那個材料部分已經逐步的在上網當中這部分跟這個郭委員這邊特別提到那剛才那個柯志恩科委員這邊特別提到有關這個人才凋零的部分那我們現在目前有做這個初中高的人才的佈局那特別是因為我是從學界介紹過來"},{"start":27025.606,"end":27042.892,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":27043.432,"end":27057.541,"text":"另外就是有關林建啟委員這邊特別提到的有關我們的這個輔導的部分我們在給那個委員的這個資料裡面其實在談到112到113的部分我們這兩年總共補助了151個單位然後包括1000家的這個電訪關懷還有360家的線上診斷跟40家的限地的這個訪視等等這些數據之前都有提供給委員這邊"},{"start":27071.749,"end":27088.643,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":27088.643,"end":27118.183,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27119.773,"end":27121.495,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":27138.427,"end":27166.319,"text":"改組決議了,然後郭玉琴委員也改組決議嘛,對不對?我可以改組決議,但是後面那個媒合的部分你剛剛沒有回答我,因為剛剛被前幾位委員稍微打斷了一下。好,來,我們重點回答一下。好,那媒合的部分的話,因為我們要跟所有的這些公益室要做媒合的過程裡面,我們需要把它做一個清楚的盤點。那我們現在目前會針對我們的157家的這個公益之家來進行這一部分。那我們現在目前也逐步的在進行當中,這個部分先跟委員這邊來做報告,謝謝。"},{"start":27169.522,"end":27170.743,"text":"五百萬書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":27196.417,"end":27210.507,"text":"403、404兩案改成主決議我們接下來繼續國立台灣博物館稅出的部分第一幕一般行政409案主席把這一案改成主決議第二幕博物館業務410案到412案吳佩儀委員、林倩琦委員"},{"start":27219.976,"end":27222.538,"text":"我的411案也改成主決議。好,411改主決議,412案。"},{"start":27229.404,"end":27251.122,"text":"謝謝召委我這邊提出來的問題是國立台灣博物館然後你們要建立這個台灣藝術史那我不太確定你們為什麼由台灣博物館來建立台灣藝術史然後包括後面其實也有相關的這個館舍好像每一個不同主題的館都在建立藝術史這個是我的問題啊好嗎回應一下好嗎謝謝"},{"start":27254.41,"end":27257.712,"text":"臺博館事實上在十幾年前就開始收集戰後臺灣的建築師的這些建築圖所以我們現在已經累積了大概12萬筆的這個那個圖面這樣"},{"start":27274.326,"end":27276.828,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27299.946,"end":27302.129,"text":"國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":27316.431,"end":27317.531,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27348.148,"end":27363.811,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27376.979,"end":27398.471,"text":"411嗎?好,411案改為主決議。好,我們繼續國立台灣史前文化博物館那最初的部分第一幕413案那主席的案子一樣改為主決議。那我們進行到第二幕管務業務的活動414、415、416那李倩琴委員、柯智恩委員。"},{"start":27401.515,"end":27402.756,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":27430.687,"end":27433.585,"text":"好謝謝克珍委員下一個范瑩委員"},{"start":27435.919,"end":27461.483,"text":"好,今天上面我還是認為說因為你們當初都是網紅拍照的這個知名景點然後你們的web卡建築真的還蠻有名的那我想就是只是純粹希望你們對於展場的量能還有研究跟教育推廣能夠有更好的一個部分我這部分我可以把它改成主決議了好不好但是我還是希望你對於你的未來的規劃還是要讓我有個很清楚的了解可以嗎"},{"start":27463.399,"end":27464.6,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27475.908,"end":27493.889,"text":"主席 委員 大家好 嘎嘎此前館在做這個重建藝術史主要是以原住民族藝術史那我們會從史前到連結到當代的南島包含台灣原住民族那過去在藝術史1.0的時候我們其實收了很多90年代以後的"},{"start":27494.309,"end":27515.367,"text":"就是說原住民族開始文化復正以後的一些當代藝術家的可是再往前推從史前因為史前其實有一些我們最近發現了一個這個這個新的證據可能要做實驗考古包含像桃藕然後包含到這個戰前這個日治時期的開始然後一直到後來開始有商人進來買賣這段時間是空白的"},{"start":27517.128,"end":27517.608,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27532.834,"end":27536.836,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27560.569,"end":27563.394,"text":"第二幕的部分是從417案到423案範圍委員"},{"start":27571.269,"end":27594.01,"text":"我針對這個國家人權博物館的案子主要是要提醒文化部依照就是政治檔案條例的第二條那政治檔案的徵集保存開放是國發會的檔案管理局但是政治檔案的研究出版展示及教育推廣的那都是由文化部會同相關機關辦理"},{"start":27595.672,"end":27596.972,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27625.177,"end":27625.657,"text":"國立文化基金附"},{"start":27647.55,"end":27671.054,"text":"實例比我們少非常的多可是我參觀他們的真相與集體基的紀念館就非常的感佩他們花在這上面的人力物力我可以隨便看到一個當年的一個受害者你只要去按他的名字輸入就可以看到他的生平他不是只是一個受害者他是個活生生的人你甚至可以對這位點上一個就是數位的蠟燭"},{"start":27674.215,"end":27674.495,"text":"國立文化基金附"},{"start":27698.183,"end":27719.275,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27719.856,"end":27720.196,"text":"珈雅琳委員"},{"start":27744.343,"end":27744.443,"text":"主席"},{"start":27753.097,"end":27777.022,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27777.362,"end":27797.308,"text":"預算還是應該要來逐年提升所以我希望說人權管可以提供給我一個詳盡的預算回升的期程與計劃那同時呢我知道人權管其實這幾年也做了非常多的展喔從像最近有在做紐西蘭的毛利人然後前陣子也有做原住民的轉型正義或是上禮拜上禮拜五去參加這個移工的部分"},{"start":27798.068,"end":27820.003,"text":"當然做得非常豐富我希望人權管要記得因為我們是國家人權博物館亞太台灣分會的主席所以我們應該要把格局做出來像我們在421案的這些人權教育推展計畫裡面今年我們只有做了一個研討會但是我還是希望像之前我跟館長說的我希望我們可以串聯地方的社群一起來共學共好一起把這件事情加深這個地方"},{"start":27820.924,"end":27828.192,"text":"待會就是如果館長可以給我一個更清楚的如何把預算提升的一個期程跟計畫還有部長這邊願意起來支持的話那我可以改組決議謝謝"},{"start":27830.523,"end":27833.666,"text":"主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":27853.905,"end":27854.726,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":27872.619,"end":27894.906,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27895.006,"end":27895.346,"text":"基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":27912.3,"end":27912.32,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":27926.852,"end":27951.22,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27951.36,"end":27975.188,"text":"這一部分我們也跟部裡面有溝通那也跟部長報告部長很支持我們說將來會逐步把一些預算能夠提供給我們只是希望我們會部裡面會把一些錢再支援給我們那另外有關那個先前委員講的我們有關多元人權這一塊我想是我們的目標也必須要來做那相關的展示上涉及到這些多元的人權我們都會注意來處理"},{"start":27975.928,"end":28004.115,"text":"我最近也會跟我們同仁來溝通我明年度的一些展示上看我們怎麼來處理這個事情我想多年前這是無庸置疑的事情我以上報告謝謝好謝謝那第二幕的部分有沒有委員抱歉我想再補充一下就是因為剛剛雖然說有說會部長會來支持但是我想知道因為其實年年凍結年年下降到底什麼時候會來支持可不可以請部長再具體的說明一下"},{"start":28005.1,"end":28005.34,"text":"議員主席議員"},{"start":28028.829,"end":28031.27,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28048.814,"end":28066.271,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28066.271,"end":28084.172,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28084.906,"end":28085.446,"text":"部長500年能接受嗎?"},{"start":28101.018,"end":28102.979,"text":"第二幕動輒500萬書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":28129.133,"end":28131.755,"text":"主決議419、421國立台灣歷史博物館稅出支援委員、欠期委員"},{"start":28149.691,"end":28177.14,"text":"国家历史博物馆称我所说的一个说明因为你们基本上面你们这个园区的景观再造工程的采购案系部设计第二次审查已经通过了但是三次招标都流标所以我纯粹提出这个部分希望你们能够对于这个景观再造的后续招标的相关事宜能够提出一个更妥善的一个规划并不是要做什么而是在这个部分里面希望能够让一切顺利"},{"start":28182.064,"end":28183.065,"text":"國立台灣歷史博物館"},{"start":28198.961,"end":28200.583,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28217.762,"end":28218.302,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":28239.641,"end":28266.519,"text":"關於這個展覽的單一敘事的部分我們其實是一個多元的一個敘事然後我們也強調跟觀眾互動更重要的是它是一個開放式的討論式的共構式的一個展示它不是一個單一的靜態的敘事那我們有準備從2019年到2027年50檔的包括未來即將要展示的這個清單就是請委員參照我們會繼續努力符合委員的期待謝謝"},{"start":28268.046,"end":28272.668,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":28294.254,"end":28295.335,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":28323.604,"end":28327.385,"text":"我想我是提簡略250、凍結500所以現在那個...那個...庭委現在還是確定要簡略250萬跟凍結500萬?沒關係我可以先...要回應我一下嗎?部長要不要先說明一下?先回應我一下報告主席我也有提案還是我們一起?沒有提案?沒有啊?是先..."},{"start":28349.191,"end":28350.312,"text":"司法部長司法部長"},{"start":28369.048,"end":28392.763,"text":"委員關心有關阿龍事件的部分我們就深切解討當然委員是關心所有的SOP所以這個部分的話我們包括像著作權、像採購、像美觀我們都已經建立管內的一個SOP了同時我們相關的處置我們也都已經進行了我們一定是後續的話會依據相關的一個SOP來進行"},{"start":28398.066,"end":28403.967,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28426.311,"end":28426.751,"text":"部長自己開口100喔?"},{"start":28454.352,"end":28458.66,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28468.344,"end":28490.363,"text":"第一幕一般行政的部分428案主席這邊一樣改組決議我們進行到第二幕林映晴委員謝謝主席我兩個案子簡單說431案是關於羊奎史料保存跟運用謝謝文學館啟動了羊奎系列的作品編轉的計畫我最後想要跟文學館再確認是說這個"},{"start":28492.845,"end":28498.829,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":28512.039,"end":28528.319,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28528.559,"end":28554.206,"text":"可是我還是謝謝文化部文學館有持續進行這樣的工作讓我們台灣的文學內容打基礎樂見文學館明年有承諾說要升級文學好台製的這個平台的系統那也在台灣館的文物典藏查詢系統會建置資料開放專區提供大眾可以直接下載這個產品高階圖檔所以這個我不盡量要動多少以上 謝謝"},{"start":28556.909,"end":28557.229,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":28573.063,"end":28597.159,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":28600.196,"end":28601.304,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":28605.595,"end":28615.277,"text":"好來我們現在大家看一下我們預算案現在改組決議的部分主席來念一次140案、144案、158案、166案、174案、179案、182案、184案、185案、186案、188案、189案、203案、204案、210案、215案、220案、244案、245案、246案、247案、249案、250案、254案、259案"},{"start":28635.66,"end":28637.882,"text":"323案、327案、330案、331案、332案、334案、338案、340案、344案、346案、359案、361案、367案、369案、371案、379案、382案、385案、386案、390案、398案、406案、403案、404案照案通過"},{"start":28664.421,"end":28665.342,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":28691.5,"end":28695.706,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":28704.841,"end":28708.582,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金、文化發展基金、國家表演藝術中心、文策院、國家電影及視聽文化中心總費用"},{"start":28734.062,"end":28760.922,"text":"總費用部分我們就照列第一案主決議的部分的話第二案、第三案、第四案我們都照案通過接下來我們專政紀念堂管理處總收入的部分申列的部分部長有沒有意見?只要告訴有沒有意見就好,不用報告"},{"start":28762.671,"end":28785.896,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28790.316,"end":28791.496,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化發展基金附"},{"start":28809.537,"end":28812.258,"text":"文化發展基金我的提案有第二、第四、第五案改成主決議。"},{"start":28831.459,"end":28854.821,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":28858.319,"end":28858.98,"text":"主決議6案吳佩儀委員6案吳佩儀委員"},{"start":28882.799,"end":28883.139,"text":"國立文化基金附"},{"start":28899.126,"end":28923.987,"text":"與委員報告我們其實114年編列的自籌輸入比114年...委員請只要告訴我增列有沒有問題可不可以少一點不用那麼多那你看可以增列多少我們建議是一百萬喔增列一百萬多少一百萬增列一百萬一百萬不行啦太少了啦增列五百萬好了好不好好我們第一樣我們就增列五百萬好我們再繼續來看總之"},{"start":28928.309,"end":28954.597,"text":"總支出的部分第二案到第七案那林千玺委員然後吳佩儀委員還是吳佩儀委員佩儀要不要先講我的第四第五案因為有來跟我討論好幾次我也是改成組決議第四案第五案都是嗎佩儀第四案第五案都是好來組決議那那個千玺委員的部分第二案"},{"start":28957.301,"end":28971.68,"text":"國表役有關第2案,我想你們的NSO在你們下面的單位,我想要了解一下實驗合唱團的這件事情是可以啟動討論處理嗎?"},{"start":28974.577,"end":28977.318,"text":"第4案、第5案因為我們改組決議了所以親戚委員的這一案在這一幕當中有動結數"},{"start":29007.031,"end":29007.612,"text":"主決議第8、第9、第10案照案通過"},{"start":29032.458,"end":29055.493,"text":"好各位委員我們再來看到文化部監督的文化內容測計院我們來看文策院總收入的部分第一案到第四案柯君委員文策院那個文策院我有我有我有那個有關於在總收入部分我們希望是可以增列50應該沒問題吧我很客氣"},{"start":29057.277,"end":29076.517,"text":"委員如果真的希望我們當然請同事獨立以赴但因為這個問題之前是因為我們是用引導方式讓業者用比較無痛的方式來負擔這個費用但大家也知道現在影視業不是很景氣所以其實會轉嫁到影視業必須我們要考慮調漲這個費用所以如果委員還是堅持我們當然是努力要做"},{"start":29076.897,"end":29078.418,"text":"總收入部分我們就照列"},{"start":29101.239,"end":29102.48,"text":"總支出從第5案到第11案陳秀寶委員、柯智恩委員、邢慶維委員、羅廷瑋委員"},{"start":29117.168,"end":29141.813,"text":"現在主席 這個案子我的第四、第五案其實是關於我是要提醒我們你是第五案嘛對 第五案我是要提醒說關於因為現在我們的消費者的使用的這個收看收視的習慣呢其實OTT平台的使用率已經超過電視頻道而且與社群平台搭配的這個使用率是很高的"},{"start":29142.793,"end":29171.034,"text":"顯見呢,OTT平台是成為民眾主要收視的管道那我也要提醒我們文策院這邊其實韓國我們借鏡韓國的經驗他們是朝整合就是整合OTT平台的前進我也希望說我們也能參考這樣的方向我們用符合國際潮流的方式帶領相關產業向前走所以說我們是不是可以來整合相關的資源那能夠就是說這樣子相輔相成那我這個案子不堅持啦我可以改成主決議以上"},{"start":29174.582,"end":29175.185,"text":"科智恩委員"},{"start":29179.81,"end":29195.743,"text":"我這邊你講的很清楚了就是說你的IP meetup這個人數你從110年到113年其實是有增加的對不對然後呢我只是認為說你們現在新上架的品數110年的831件遞減到112年這差很多了89那你看到113年到7月底僅新上架5件績效不彰所以這個績效真的要好好給我們一個"},{"start":29209.034,"end":29209.734,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29227.733,"end":29244.38,"text":"第六、繼續審查2019年文策院成立以後,台灣文化產業的國際競爭力並沒有顯著的提升,產值也沒有顯著的提升。我們希望督促文策院能給更具體的投資策略的調整做法。"},{"start":29245.06,"end":29247.202,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29261.22,"end":29288.571,"text":"好,林俊錡委員好,謝謝莊委還有各位同仁那這個文化內容策進院我這邊提的是第八案那最主要是你們的這個經費來源除了政府合撥那個自籌收入那你們從成立到現在這個政府捐助的這個比例非常高那98.88、99.98中間那你如何來拓展財源我需要一個很實際的書面報告"},{"start":29289.992,"end":29297.659,"text":"第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附第二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立"},{"start":29317.417,"end":29336.974,"text":"謝謝委員各位指教先回答羅委員第6案有關就是我們具體投資方案其實我們也清楚知道說我們目前前幾年的投資的確是以影視業為主但我們也開始希望涉入到更多元的發展遊戲、表演藝術各方面事實上其實我們從今年開始我們陸續跟台北市政府"},{"start":29337.614,"end":29356.586,"text":"台中市政府上個禮拜五我們跟嘉義市政府都陸續簽那個合作意向書我們希望透過各地方政府因為有許多小型的藝文團體可能過去在文策院的範圍之內很難被注意到但我們認為很重要所以我們跟各地方政府合作他們經過各地方政府補助的藝文團體無論表演藝術、遊戲業者、開發業者我們都會給予國發基金的優先投資審議"},{"start":29364.051,"end":29393.136,"text":"通過這樣的一個跟地方政府的合作把我們投資的這個網路打得更多元不要只投資大的或者投資影視的那影視的部分當然大家還是很在意啦齁那其實我從去年3月以來文成院現在做的很重要的工作是在做招商影資當然你說我們從去年開始改變要馬上立竿見影我絕對覺得有難處但從明年開始大家會陸續看到我們陸續已經跟台灣的電信公司科技公司甚至是韓國的外商公司已經開始都有陸續的合資等於說這個市場"},{"start":29393.456,"end":29395.317,"text":"國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29422.959,"end":29437.33,"text":"制酬比例,我要先講的是5年多前,因為文策院其實跟一般的表演場域型的組織不太一樣,我們不是一個可以有經常做B2B、B2C,我們並不是一個販賣以制酬款為主的一個單位。"},{"start":29440.196,"end":29465.803,"text":"但是我們也想方設法在想要增加自籌款我舉例說明我們每年11月我們有辦一個大型的一個商展叫TCCF很多委員可能都知道我們從第一年辦的時候我們的自籌款就這個展會可能只有幾十萬幾百萬一直到去年我們自籌款已經到一千多萬跟各位報告到今年11月我們的自籌款光這個活動已經到兩千多萬了所以我要講的是只要能夠有自籌款"},{"start":29466.483,"end":29495.529,"text":"商業行為的活動我們一定盡可能去增加支出款可是有很多其他一些我們帶業者參加國際影展、坎城影展他們沒有辦法有收入那個收入即便產生也是業者的版權收入這個請委員也理解拜託委員支持這個事情那另外IPMapLab第10跟第11案他是在疫情期間因為無法實體讓業者去做媒合大家知道文聰的工作除了國際交流、投資、媒合Mapping也是一個我們重要的工作"},{"start":29496.169,"end":29517.816,"text":"疫情的確無法讓大家具有實體交流所以我們做了IPMAP那疫情期間做到現在我們也覺得一路過來有很多需要改進的地方所以這一次增加250萬預算就是希望更優化更精進事實上我們最近已經請廠商來提案希望針對IPMAP做出更實質的更實質的一些優化的改進也希望可以很快跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":29519.773,"end":29524.737,"text":"主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":29546.817,"end":29548.257,"text":"那我現在是凍結六千萬嘛那一千五"},{"start":29577.554,"end":29577.895,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29593.985,"end":29609.974,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":29611.613,"end":29630.691,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":29631.358,"end":29632.179,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":29658.055,"end":29659.656,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":29688.949,"end":29693.47,"text":"主決議12至15項照案通過16至17項按照文字修正後通過文化部監督國家電影及視聽文化中心總收入"},{"start":29714.215,"end":29714.615,"text":"科志恩委員"},{"start":29733.212,"end":29734.433,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29750.384,"end":29750.885,"text":"主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29767.621,"end":29770.623,"text":"總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29787.353,"end":29787.693,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29804.937,"end":29826.802,"text":"謝謝柯委員的關心這件事情我想我們一定會關於第一個霸凌的事件其實我們在我上的沒多久就是已經開始就跟大家這個員工大會都講到我們對霸凌是零容忍的這個狀況所以我們會按照這個所有現在這個所有的規章去做"},{"start":29827.222,"end":29830.543,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29851.591,"end":29851.751,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":29869.781,"end":29893.608,"text":"身為一個文化中心,身為一個國家電影中心,這個事情也發生在你們單位當中。所以我只能說本席其實對這件事情非常的關切,也不斷地跟這些所謂的受害者還是有一些聯絡的管道。我會要求更多的一個澄清跟更多的一個檢討,因為這個東西其實讓非常多人身心靈受到創傷。我覺得這個東西你勢必要注意,好不好?"},{"start":29894.328,"end":29915.908,"text":"謝謝科委員,我們絕對是對於800農人一直會再重申,謝謝總收入的部分的話,那科委員這邊有沒有一些主張?所以我在這個部分裡面,在這部分,我說實在,我真的很客氣,我增列50,然後葛睿俊委員增列200,你們到底可不可以增列多少?100可以嗎?"},{"start":29919.289,"end":29923.47,"text":"主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":29949.738,"end":29951.279,"text":"總支出兵案凍結100萬,書面報告後取得通知。11、12案主決議照案通過"},{"start":29987.112,"end":29987.953,"text":"主管國立文化機構作業基金附"},{"start":30000.267,"end":30002.829,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30026.268,"end":30054.057,"text":"基本倫理更損害政府形象與領導者應具備之管理素養為維護公務體系的專業性與和諧性政府應正視此問題落實改善措施並對此事件進行全面深入調查文化部應全力配合行政院的調查工作如行為屬實應予以譴責並依法嚴肅處理為保障所有公務員的職場權益確保工作環境公平"},{"start":30054.657,"end":30067.347,"text":"尊重杜絕類似事件再度發生應向立法院教育文化委員會提出書面報告說明調查結果及後續改進作為提案人林倩企業員之羅廷偉第二案"},{"start":30068.385,"end":30092.757,"text":"未必免未來文化部及立法院審查通過之預算應政策調整而臨時大規模變動預算用途。請文化部未來預算使用上務必審慎分配規劃,應將經費確實執行於經審查通過之預算使用項目。提案人宏孟凱、萬美玲、葛羅鈞宣讀完畢。好,那這兩個附帶決議如果大家沒有問題的話,我們就營養召喚通過。"},{"start":30097.618,"end":30097.859,"text":"預算案該組決議有409、411、413、414、419、421、425、428、430、431"},{"start":30110.544,"end":30124.239,"text":"發展基金改組決議的部分一、二、四、五案表演藝術中心改組決議的案子第二案、第四案、第五案文策院改組決議三案、四案、五案、七案以上照案通過"},{"start":30130.202,"end":30156.153,"text":"今天審查的結果免於重複宣讀在不影響文藝前提下授權議事人員一114年度中央政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商之範例整理列入記錄114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心文化內容測鏡院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案已審查完略"},{"start":30157.631,"end":30179.276,"text":"是否需交由黨團協商。關於今天的會議作成如下的決議。114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部及所屬單位預算案文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案文化部主管文化發展基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":30179.676,"end":30201.849,"text":"全部審查完均114年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心文化內容策進院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案均審查完均你具審查報告提報院會不須交由黨團協商院會討論時由萬召集委員美玲補充說明"},{"start":30203.05,"end":30217.222,"text":"本會主審中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案公務預算及非營業基金預算部份均已審查完略有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整已據審查報告含附財政委員會審查結果"},{"start":30223.347,"end":30243.063,"text":"議區交由黨團協商。院會討論時由萬昭委美林補充說明。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆部分,請相關機關盡速以書面答覆。報告委員會,今天議程處理完畢,現在散會。謝謝各位。"},{"start":30249.482,"end":30250.903,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":30275.614,"end":30280.638,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"},{"start":30304.974,"end":30306.061,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化基金附"}]}},{"id":"16429","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16429","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e4f168390ff16a010ea5b031af9c32cfd22ed645e3f9bcfe6bd5525a2fcd2fa925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院龔秘書長明鑫、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲就「行政院表示：因財劃法修正，114年度總預算須重編」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【113年12月30日及114年1月2日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-30T08:30:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-30T13:11:00+08:00","duration":16816,"影片長度":"04:40:16","委員發言時間":"08:30:44 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．113年12月26日星期四．財政部部長莊翠雲等．主席乃召集委員會員．113年12月25日報告事項．宣讀上次會議事錄決定．一事錄確定．討論事項．一審查煙酒稅法實案．以行政院罕行審議．本院委員李博義等16人．委員賴慧琳等16人．"},{"start":2164.304,"end":2187.169,"text":"委員郭國倫等18人、委員吳清明等16人分別擬聚燕九稅法部門條文修正草案等5案二、本院委員徐曉新等29人擬聚燕九稅法第19條條文修正草案案三、本院委員賴世保等27人、委員吳立華等20人、委員張志倫等18人分別擬聚燕九稅法第19條及第21條條文修正草案等3案四、本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬聚"},{"start":2188.109,"end":2203.619,"text":"宴酒稅法第19條及第23條條例修正查案2.審查使用牌照稅法8案1.行政院寒經審議本議委員賴世保等24人委員陳金輝等17人委員張志文等18人委員陳樹惠等19人委員賴慧玲等17人委員郭國仁等16人"},{"start":2204.159,"end":2232.234,"text":"分別擬據使用牌照稅法第29條、第30條及第31條挑案修正草案等7案二、本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬據使用牌照稅法第30條及第31條挑案修正草案案三、審查行政院行政審議本院委員賴世保等21人委員林儲英等18人委員徐巧興等27人委員賴慧恩等17人委員郭國文等17人分別擬據突襲稅法第54條挑案修正草案等6案四、審查中華民國114年度中華政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分"},{"start":2232.894,"end":2254.468,"text":"關於財政部主管中國輸出銀行、臺灣金融控股股份有限公司、韓臺灣銀行股份有限公司、臺灣燃燒保險股份有限公司、臺灣中華證券股份有限公司、臺灣事項個案合併詢答經委員賴世保、陳金輝、賴委員說明提案要旨。財政部部長莊淑穎說明及回應委員法律提案並就預算案報告後,據委員林大夫等事務人提出質詢。"},{"start":2256.065,"end":2284.313,"text":"軍警財政部部長莊俊穎等予以說明及答覆委員王航威所提訴命諮詢略錄記錄、刊登公報．並請相關部會以訴命答覆．委員諮詢會及答覆或請補充諮詢．請相關部會及署內以訴命答覆．委員立法院期限者從即所定。決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、應有稅法實案審查結果一、第18條、第19條、第23條條文及刪除第21條條文均照行政院提案通過二、本案審查完畢並且履歷審查報告提報院會討論"},{"start":2285.433,"end":2301.028,"text":"因為討論前不須交由黨團協商：因為討論時由賴召集委員會員補充說明：使用《白照稅法》第8案審查結果：以第29條、第30條及第31條條文均照行政提案通過：本案審查環境並任理據審查報告提報院外討論：因為討論前不須交由黨團協商：因為討論時由賴召集委員會員補充說明：土地稅法第54條等立案審查結果："},{"start":2311.337,"end":2325.55,"text":"第五四條條文照行政院提案通過二本案審查完均並按已去審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需加入黨團協商院會討論時由賴召集委員會員補充說明五審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":2327.092,"end":2341.288,"text":"總預算案、附屬單位預算、營業部分關於財政部主管、中國輸出日銀行、臺灣金融控股股份衍線公司、韓臺銀行股份衍線公司、臺灣能售保險股份衍線公司、臺灣中華證券股份衍線公司、113年12月26日星期四繼續審查通過臨時提案二案"},{"start":2343.93,"end":2363.983,"text":"113年12月26日討論事項繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於財政部主管、中國輸出運營行、臺灣金融控股股份衛生公司、韓臺銀行股份衛生公司、臺灣人壽保險股份衛生公司、臺灣中華振興股份衛生公司決議、審查結果以財政部主管通過決議三項一"},{"start":2366.397,"end":2384.154,"text":"中國輸出銀行業務計劃因依據營業收支、金融保險成本轉投資、重大之建設事業及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整營業收支一、營業總收入58億7481千元照列二、營業總支出不含所得稅費用原列46億5198萬6千元檢列一、"},{"start":2387.297,"end":2395.864,"text":"營業成本向下金融保險成本之各項提存750萬元二營業費用250萬元含業務費用之服務費用200萬元管理費用50萬元以上工具減略1000萬元科目均自行調整區域均炸裂改略了46億4198萬6千元三稅前淨利緣略12億2219萬5千元"},{"start":2409.696,"end":2431.188,"text":"整列一千萬元改列為十二億三千兩百一九萬五千元三金融保險成本營業總支出因水桶調整四轉投資計劃無列數五重大支建設事業三千六百四十四萬九千元照列六資金運用因依據營業收支金融保險成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大支建設事業等項之審查結果水桶調整通過決議十項"},{"start":2432.389,"end":2448.217,"text":"二、臺灣金融控股股份衍星公司、臺灣銀行股份衍星公司、臺銀燃射保險股份衍星公司、臺銀綜合證券股份衍星公司、業務計劃、因依據營業收支、金融保險成本、轉投資、重大資建設事業及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":2449.358,"end":2455.565,"text":"2.營業收支1.營業總收入3,447億505萬8千元針對營業收入向下金融保險收入4,500萬元含臺銀人壽保險股份引進公司保費收入2,580萬元臺銀中華證券股份引進公司"},{"start":2466.378,"end":2469.341,"text":"證券經濟及承銷收入1920萬元區域均照列改列為34475058000元而營業總支出不安所得稅費用原列331173548000元減列一營業成本24100萬元"},{"start":2486.016,"end":2503.762,"text":"一、臺灣銀行股份有限公司金融保險成本之利息費用兩億四千萬元二、臺銀人壽保險股份有限公司其他營業成本之投資性不動產費用一百萬元二、營業費用一千四百萬元一、業務費用四百萬元含臺灣銀行股份有限公司服務費用之理運費一百萬元修理培養醫保顧費一百萬元"},{"start":2505.422,"end":2510.147,"text":"租金以利息支、交通及運輸設備租金100萬元、臺銀人壽保險股份演訓公司100萬元、坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑"},{"start":2524.881,"end":2535.124,"text":"三、臺灣銀行股份引進公司其他營業費用至營業發展費用400萬元科目自行調整以上工具檢列2億5500萬元區域均造列改列為3309億1854萬8千元三、稅前經歷原列135億3151萬3……"},{"start":2543.286,"end":2563.714,"text":"一百五十一萬元、增業三億元、改六一百三十八億、三千一百五十一萬元、三金融保險成本、營業總支出因應隨同調整、轉投資計劃有劣數、重大支建設事業、失業四千零一十五萬九千元造劣、資金運用因依據營業收支、金融保險成本、盈虧撥補、轉投資及重大支建設事業等向之審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":2564.714,"end":2575.971,"text":"補判預算、增加固定資產之建設改良擴充兩億七百二十七萬八千元及資金資轉投資十億四千九百五十五萬元在列通過決議三十二項宣傳筆"},{"start":2578.2,"end":2598.108,"text":"好,各位委員請問對上次議事錄有無許異議?好,沒有異議,我們議事錄確定請議事長先讀今日議程邀請行政院龔秘書長明鑫、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲就:「行政院表示：因財劃法修正，114年度總預算須重編，進行專題報告，並備質詢。」"},{"start":2603.447,"end":2626.623,"text":"我們接著來介紹在場的委員我們林德福委員吳秉瑞委員我們介紹議會的官員行政院常務副秘書長李國興副秘書長那個秘書長龔明鑫因為今天在內政委會省他們的那個預算所以就請教接著我們行政院主計總處的陳淑姿主計長"},{"start":2630.356,"end":2656.589,"text":"主計總處的公務預算處的徐永毅處長基金預算處的黃淑娟處長綜合統計處的林雅雯前任視察國事普查處的施敬發專委我們財政部莊翠雲部長國庫署的陳柏成署長負稅署的宋秀玲署長"},{"start":2658.069,"end":2661.161,"text":"公務署彭英偉署長國有財產署曾國基署長"},{"start":2665.706,"end":2677.952,"text":"財政資訊中心的張文希張主任歡迎大家我們今天議程會安排這個邀請行政院祕書長、我們行政院主計總處的陳主計長還有陳玲莊部長來討論就是有關這個行政院表示這個財劃修正114年度總預算要不要重編這個專題報告是因為在這個"},{"start":2691.398,"end":2707.902,"text":"12月23日的時候行政院的發言人李慧芝有公開發言表示就是說這個財劃法通過以後明年總預算可能甚至需要重新編列這個是行政院在記者會裡頭的公開發言所以因為這樣子知識體態我們才特別提這個專案"},{"start":2710.103,"end":2710.163,"text":"提出專題報告"},{"start":2732.992,"end":2744.727,"text":"我看報告很多都已經送過來了所以我們這三位報告的我們的官員就大概簡單的花個兩分鐘闡述一下然後我們委員就可以來進行這個質詢我們先請這個李副秘書長幫我們報告謝謝"},{"start":2757.447,"end":2773.402,"text":"主席、各位委員、理事先生今天應邀列席貴委員會對於行政院表示因財劃法修正、114年度總預算須重編提出專題報告僅檢要說明如下中央政府總預算除了辦理國防、外交等事務外"},{"start":2774.022,"end":2788.774,"text":"為了提升國家競爭力並均衡地區的發展．尚需從國家整體的計畫統籌辦理相關的業務．包括推動六大區域產業等等的業務．那14年度總預算案雖然有剩餘209億元．"},{"start":2790.836,"end":2804.973,"text":"但是呢並計特別預算後稅務稅出仍然有差短1789億元且本院已合訂納編前瞻基礎特別預算的個案計劃因五年度及以後年度編列數總共達到4200多億元仍需回歸總預算來編列"},{"start":2810.06,"end":2830.062,"text":"中央政府的整體財政負擔仍然相當沉重大院113年12月20日三讀通過財政收支發放法的修正案中央需要再釋出財源3753億元占整體稅入9%且一般性補助款亦不得少於修正施行前一年度的2500億元"},{"start":2832.104,"end":2852.02,"text":"會嚴重影響到中央政府推動各項政策的財政能力本次修法後地方自有財源會大幅增加但是並沒有通盤考量到市權的劃分基於收入劃分要搭配市權來檢討一波合理的業務給地方辦理這樣才是"},{"start":2852.981,"end":2876.234,"text":"正確的那中央政府114年度總預算案已經送請大院審議那本院願意善盡說明之責希望大院能夠緊迫審議通過並且執行必利114年度各項政事及重大政策順利的推動那以上報告敬請各位委員、女士先生指教那祝大家健康快樂萬事如意謝謝好謝謝李副秘書長接著我們請行政院主計總長陳主計長"},{"start":2889.216,"end":2901.293,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天要列席貴委員會第11屆第2會期第14次全體委員會．對於行政院表示：因財劃法修正．114年度總預算須重編提出專題報告只檢要說明實相"},{"start":2904.116,"end":2918.046,"text":"一大院113年12月20日深度通過財政措施緩緩法修正案中央須再釋出財源3753占總體稅率9%且一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前預算2501元編列占整體稅率約6%中央須透過相對收減稅出規模因應一般性補助款不能減少依法律依務則"},{"start":2930.154,"end":2949.261,"text":"皆屬依相關法令編列的經費．無法因應財政困難進行刪減．所以剪裂的範例只能局限在．其以稅出將嚴重衝擊中央施政的能力．以114年度總預算編列3兆1325億元為例．其中依法律義務．包括人事、社會保險、退伍．1兆8144億元．均無法刪減．稅出1兆3"},{"start":2955.163,"end":2970.295,"text":"需刪減28%將造成以核定上在執行中的各項計劃來臨危機．影響層面管化．包括國防安全．無法如期籌握各式重大武器裝備．將嚴重影響衝擊証券軍備．降低主戰裝備．搓散力．對國家安全影響甚至社會福利相關計劃．"},{"start":2979.262,"end":3007.512,"text":"涉及婦女、兒少、老人及福利、權益等相關﹑場經費不足﹑將嚴重衝擊全國性社會福利政策﹑推動及勞工勤領退休金權益﹑難以為家庭提供穩定支持﹑三、醫療服務相關計畫涉及民眾就醫權益﹑場經費不足﹑將衝擊全國性醫療政策﹑推動影響癌友、患病等民眾使用新藥及婦女人員獎勵等不利醫療服務品質提升﹑是勞工照顧﹑場預算不足﹑"},{"start":3008.112,"end":3033.129,"text":"致應撥補勞保基金．恐嚴重衝擊勞保基金財務狀況．影響勞工勤領退休金的權益．五農業發展報告．辦理供養收購回料補貼．綠色環境幾戶農損救助等．堂推動資金會部署．恐嚴重衝擊對農民權益．六治安維護為因應毒品及炸棄新形態犯罪．守法權利．投入交講科技辦案之設備、構置及技術．"},{"start":3034.089,"end":3051.255,"text":"經濟等相關預算不足之因將直接衝擊到全國性資安維護．影響人民生活安全．其重大公共建設、軌道建設．鐵路立體化及治水等重大建設．至投資推動恐延遲．影響經濟成長、動能及城鄉均衡．發展．科技及產業發展相關計劃延遲推動．控使我國科技發展．"},{"start":3057.617,"end":3086.526,"text":"落後世界先進水準上市國際間科技競逐先機以及降低國際廠商來台設廠意願三本質修法後地方自籌財源將大幅增加甚至部分縣市貨幣中央統籌分配稅及一般性補助款以大於及113年稅出預算的規模無序在自籌財據以前隨事權移轉收入劃分以搭配事權檢討修正相關行政做法一波合理業務予以地方政府辦理"},{"start":3087.446,"end":3116.456,"text":"是114年中央政府總預算克正與大院審議．截至12月30日．中央市3個部會主管．其中33個已經完成初步審議．令10個上陸續審議中．令地方政府預算已大部分完成審議．22個縣市．其中20個已在議會完成審議．僅剩2個縣市尚要完成審議．期限大院能進促審議．通過114年度總預算．臂力各項施政順利推動．以上報告進行．各位"},{"start":3117.156,"end":3144.241,"text":"委員你是先生指教祝大家健康快樂萬事如意謝謝謝謝主計長好那我們這個財政部的報告我們就參閱了都是照念的來請這個我們現在開始詢答這個發言前我們來先做一下宣告每位委員出席委員發言時間8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘然後列席的話就5分鐘10點截止登記現在我們請第一位林特輔委員"},{"start":3147.478,"end":3147.678,"text":"陳主計長、莊部長"},{"start":3171.24,"end":3195.03,"text":"主席長,十年前立法院三讀通過修正財劃法,行政院發言人李慧芝在記者會上就表示說明年度總預算恐怕會受到嚴重的衝擊,甚至可能需要重編。上個禮拜三財委會開會答詢的時候,莊部長卻回答本席說:「我們有說過重編嗎?」"},{"start":3197.831,"end":3224.665,"text":"北京十分疑惑啊難道當天行政院記者會是AI的身為記者會嗎?你沒有聽到嗎?主計長當天記者會你也在座李慧芝旁邊請問你有聽到李花言人提到重編兩個字嗎?有沒有?有沒有?這個部分我是沒有注意到你沒有注意到?部長你沒有聽到?"},{"start":3227.665,"end":3243.779,"text":"委員 我想 預算的編列是非常重大的事情沒有 有沒有聽到嘛 這個部分 你有沒有聽到嘛 我沒有注意到這個 你沒有注意到 兩位都沒有注意到 行政院記者會 花妍能是代表行政院院長餒 不是"},{"start":3244.98,"end":3272.718,"text":"因為我們必須要說的是重編這個事情因為涉及到整個總預算收到立法院了你不要講了如果你有聽到議會的記者們也都有聽到那請問你為什麼部長你會沒有聽到記者都有聽到只有你沒有聽到我不是說我沒有聽到因為那一天他的意思就是說財劃法那天通過以後的三讀通過以後的"},{"start":3273.818,"end":3294.606,"text":"對這個相關的一些施政會有嚴重的衝擊不要狡辯本席很少這麼生氣講實在話做事情你要面對現實包括主計長你在臺南當主計長的時候賴市長那時候你在當他的主計長"},{"start":3295.799,"end":3314.526,"text":"你是不是你的論文說是論文也是根據這個財劃應該要劃分財政要劃分有沒有主計長報告委員時空環境不一樣喔對換了個位置就換了個腦袋時空環境不一樣卓氏金輝就對了啦條件不一樣卓氏金輝就對了啦我們是薪水付不出來這麼嚴重"},{"start":3324.91,"end":3349.986,"text":"四年我們的超增一兆八千多億每年超增四千五百億你有沒有統計過但是報告委員超增是暫時性的暫時性但是每年都超增喔我們統計有12年有6年是短差的以上那個部長我再請教難道行政院記者會容許會後各說各話各自解讀嗎"},{"start":3351.027,"end":3378.256,"text":"可以嗎我們沒有各自解讀也沒有各自解讀但是你們剛剛所講的包括你那天所講的就是各自解讀反之如果你也沒有聽到那是不是意味著財政部主計處都認為修法是事小還不到要總預算重編的地步是不是這樣子修法事小跟委員報告因為總預算行政院已經籌編完成並請送請大院審議目前大院也一直在審議當中對"},{"start":3379.916,"end":3386.766,"text":"暗示那天 對不對 行政院發言人所講的你們都是當耳邊風因為他是代表行政院院長 對不對部長、主計長"},{"start":3391.541,"end":3409.659,"text":"財劃法三讀後：行政院不是開記者會說自愛難行．對明年總預算有嚴重的衝擊．不然就是拿原鄉預算、教育預算．以及金公教、加薪來威脅不同的群體．甚至於連國防預算．"},{"start":3410.78,"end":3433.988,"text":"御因的津貼都能用來恐嚇全民主計長：如果對明年總預算有衝擊為什麼行政院明知道財劃法在立法院上會期充分的溝通而且立法院也做成了主決議要財政部這個會期你們要提出版本到現在行政院還亂扣帽子"},{"start":3436.309,"end":3449.713,"text":"在代表多數民意的立法院身上那我請問主計長在這個時機點你認為行政院有沒有提出修法新版本的可能?會不會?會不會?你告訴我嘛"},{"start":3453.724,"end":3469.081,"text":"目前針對那個立法院通過的一個財劃法目前行政院正在研究相關的一個因應的措施所以這個部分呢這個部分我們等行政院研究出來這個措施之後我們配合辦理"},{"start":3469.662,"end":3489.389,"text":"那我請問你,如果行政院互遇失敗,事件也不如行政院預期一月到四月就要核定115年度這個施政方針以及總預算的籌編那我請問主計長,你認為115年度總預算編列有沒有困難度?有沒有?"},{"start":3490.556,"end":3511.083,"text":"當然是有困難的原則上其實我們扣除一般性就是依法律義務一兆八我們是三兆一嘛114是三兆一一一四年度為例三兆一扣掉一兆八一法律剩下一兆三那就要減百分之三十左右好那個主計長是因為40年啊都沒有修的"},{"start":3512.283,"end":3528.557,"text":"財劃法代表多數民意的立法委員終於通過修法總統行政院就說倉促立法修法之前還說現在的版本是最好的版本那我請問主計長你認為現在的版本真的是最好的版本嗎?"},{"start":3529.616,"end":3546.173,"text":"以目前來講因為我們有補助現在是2500億一般性的補助這個部分就佔6%但是過去這段時間你們是看顏色在補助啦你像蘇貞昌高雄申請一個漁港3000多萬他補助81億"},{"start":3549.858,"end":3569.227,"text":"對不對?你們為什麼不檢討?補助81億勒?3000多萬補助81億如果真的最好的那我請問你為什麼賴總統在擔任台南市長的時候要強烈要求中央修財化法?當時的你也是台南市的主計處的處長到底支持還是反對賴市長?"},{"start":3575.51,"end":3590.539,"text":"你是支持還是反對賴市長你告訴我報告委員那時候台南市的狀況他是已經達到公債法的上限然後薪水發不出來的狀況那時候的情況和現在不一樣現在的一個部分"},{"start":3590.879,"end":3591.48,"text":"所以說你認為："},{"start":3607.179,"end":3626.808,"text":"你認為修財劃法這不是最好的版本因為面對將近40年沒有修訂的財劃法你認為沒有堅持推動修法和初心繼續提供總統修法迫切性的意見反而任意批評迫切修法代表多數民意的立委是不是這樣子"},{"start":3627.668,"end":3643.953,"text":"不是批評立委而是針對現有的狀況如果這樣的修法將會造成行政院的一個在執行上有很大的一個困難因為他必須刪減將近30%那會嚴重影響到各項的一個重大的一個建設"},{"start":3645.575,"end":3666.541,"text":"大家心智度明部長上個禮拜本席質詢你的時候預算是不是要重編如果要重編就不用審預算了結果你回答114年就要開始了怎麼重編因為中央施政怎麼去推動部長按照行政院花園人的說法明年度總預算會受到嚴重的衝擊"},{"start":3667.981,"end":3688.512,"text":"甚至於恐怕需要重編那媒體報導部長打你的臉行政院打你臉的這個媒體報導部長你打臉行政院的說法請問部長對於是不是要重編總預算的看法你看行政院是不是一致的"},{"start":3690.153,"end":3704.11,"text":"我那天已經跟委員報告114年在這個禮拜已經要開始了總預算也經過行政院籌編在大院審議當中各項施政都必須往前推進這個籌編他是知識體大的我覺得說得很清楚已經跟委員說明了"},{"start":3707.674,"end":3707.694,"text":"主計長"},{"start":3731.388,"end":3752.468,"text":"你說倉促修法改變現有財政的秩序影響各級政府財政的穩健這是另一個分配不均的開始那我請問部長修法前的財劃法是不是完全沒有分配不均的問題修法前的財劃法的情況我們都很了解因此是透過一般性補助款還有計劃型的補助款"},{"start":3752.928,"end":3753.028,"text":"所以說你才會說"},{"start":3778.616,"end":3797.034,"text":"被卓院長稱為最好的版本是不是因為這樣所以行政院不願意提修法的版本跟委員報告對於有關財劃法不是不能調整但是我們財政部也一直在努力第一個財劃法的調整必須要兼顧地方財政需求立法院已經做過主決議而且要你們修你們都不提"},{"start":3800.177,"end":3821.045,"text":"處理好以後你們又來推翻：講三道四說三道四部長對於財劃法三讀通過後對中央施政的相關自愛你說財政部跟主計總處正在演繹中那我請問部長如果最後的結果還是要維持修法所謂的自愛難行財政部有沒有信心來克服有沒有"},{"start":3821.645,"end":3847.337,"text":"對於相關的制裁的部分剛剛主總在報告裡面已經分析得相當清楚了那對於有沒有要提財劃法的修正我們已經在之前已經想過財劃法的修正必須要爭取最大的一個共識來能夠減少一些爭議這個部分財政部一直在努力而且把相關的指標也濃縮後續就是權重已經調整的係數等等要去進一步的討論我覺得這個部分是財政部一直在努力的"},{"start":3847.537,"end":3858.239,"text":"那如果可以克服你認為財政部所堅持的水平垂直分配的指標會不會出現偏差如果不能克服會不會考慮你要辭職下台"},{"start":3859.273,"end":3882.471,"text":"對於我個人的質問並沒有任何的堅持但是我覺得把這個財劃法能夠做一個更好的調整一直是我們努力的方向其實大家都是相同的看法來我最後一個議題那個114年度課稅收入編列2.77兆創歷史新高而且比113年度預算成長19.88%那我請問部長修法後的財劃法對未來年度的課稅收入會不會有影響會不會"},{"start":3888.709,"end":3901.548,"text":"稅收入第一個我們在課稅收入的時候我們是先估比如說以所得稅來說我是先估全國的然後再按那個財劃法的規定的比例撥到專案統籌分配稅款進去當然是在比例的變動當然它的額度就會變動"},{"start":3902.881,"end":3931.944,"text":"其實事實上根據立法院預算中心對財政部評估報告指出114年度的總預算案課稅收入佔稅入結構比例是87.97%也就是支應各項正式支出最主要的財源但是課稅收入的準確度從110年度開始每年課稅收入時增數遠超過預算數更矛盾的是114年度"},{"start":3933.925,"end":3940.987,"text":"在預期經濟成長是3.26%第一113年的3.9%9下所編列的課稅收入反而是113年度增加19.88%更創歷史新高那部長因為失準的課稅收入預算數預計的經濟成長"},{"start":3956.28,"end":3957.821,"text":"我想我取他下次再問"},{"start":3986.385,"end":3987.186,"text":"財政部莊部長陳主計長委員長"},{"start":4009.25,"end":4033.45,"text":"兩位早齁財政收支劃分法當然如果要檢討是要談收跟支啦但這一次倉促修法最嚴重的問題是只有談收沒有談支那收的部分還只有談水平分配垂直分配裡面都沒有經過詳細的討論那我想請教這個立法院"},{"start":4038.468,"end":4062.95,"text":"10月20日三讀之後現在送到行政院了沒?目前來說我們並沒有收到任何有收到這個條文的訊息那複密法是不是也一樣沒有收到這個法律的修正目前還沒收到吧?收到之後行政院有幾天的時間內可以提複密"},{"start":4064.284,"end":4071.809,"text":"是不是10天內法律的規定所以就算最快今天收到要"},{"start":4073.158,"end":4096.409,"text":"決定要不要復議也是1月8日、1月9日的事情就像加上禮拜六禮拜天所以事實上雖然這個三讀通過了但是還沒有生效現在聽起來行政院好像是要提復議復議完之後有可能還要再釋憲目前要走的是這樣最大做被詬病的也報告裡面有寫到"},{"start":4097.625,"end":4114.893,"text":"沒有支的部分啦所謂收支支就是說市權要做哪一些增加的開支所以要多花哪一些錢啊所以每一個地方政府要多得到多少錢這是不是支的部分是不是這個意思"},{"start":4116.431,"end":4144.397,"text":"是,這個部分因為我們收入的部分就是移過去一個3753就是9%再加上一般性補助6%移過去15%但是以前我們承接省政府業務有11%的部分這相關的一個事權並沒有做移轉所以這個部分在如果事權留在中央那沒有相關的收入來支應這相關的一個相關的執行會有相當的一個困難以上說明"},{"start":4145.302,"end":4161.831,"text":"好 那一個最大的問題剛剛老師有別的委員提到這個問題他說財政宣誓公安法很久了都沒有修啦這也確實一個事實其實是從這個精神的時候李登輝先生當總統的時候修過一次"},{"start":4162.811,"end":4176.064,"text":"之後就到現在後面李登輝當總統還有一段期間再來就是陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統到現在賴清德先生擔任總統中間我記得應該是30出頭年"},{"start":4180.3,"end":4187.585,"text":"中間國民黨當立法院的多數也非常多屆啊事實上到第9屆、第10屆這兩屆才民進黨多數第6屆、第7屆、第8屆"},{"start":4195.266,"end":4209.178,"text":"國民黨占多數的時間是很長喔尤其第7屆的立委啊立法院113席民進黨總共才20幾席27席其他都是國民黨的那時候占了70幾席不得了"},{"start":4210.424,"end":4229.193,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下那時候的在野黨就是民進黨的先制首長也在說要修財政收支劃分法那就剛剛就主計長講的因為那時候包括現在的總統當然台南市長都發現如果依照當時的分配真的拿不出錢來連要繳這個"},{"start":4233.188,"end":4259.55,"text":"要給年終獎金都有問題嘛所以我記得那個時候都還有預借的這個制度地方政府跟財政政府先預借錢來發年終獎金然後過了年終再用隔年的去補公式相同那為什麼那時候的財政狀況跟現在的財政狀況差這麼多就是因為發家庭的人經濟生長到底做了有好事沒好事嘛馬英九在當總統的時候"},{"start":4261.604,"end":4285.293,"text":"我第8屆立委的第一年啊國家總預算才一兆四千億欸一兆五千多億啊現在三兆一千億是多了一倍多喔所以當然因為收入不一樣從疫情開始之後台灣的經濟在世界上可以說是翹楚每一年每一年都很快的速度在增加所以如果照公式來分配"},{"start":4286.969,"end":4312.062,"text":"現在地方政府得到的錢就像你講的一年已經盈餘六百多億了當然是全部的加總在一起包括我所在的新北市連續四年財政結算都是plus都是正數吧不僅沒有欠錢還有能力可以還錢那在這樣的狀況之下如果好好的討論權責該如何劃分收跟資應該如何劃分"},{"start":4315.724,"end":4341.601,"text":"當然這個事應該是可以好好來討論我們也願意討論我記得媒體的揪漏院長也有跟在一檔說是不是再給我們一段時間到了明年的5月以前絕對可以提出行政院的版本結果在一檔不肯說這個會期非通過不可結果通過這個東西只有把收的部分劃走一大部分吃的部分都沒談"},{"start":4343.936,"end":4365.347,"text":"照現在的試算版新北市可以增加375億當然如果站在我地方政府站在地方民意代表的態度越多越好我從別的地方搶來搶越多越好像馬祖一個人可以三十幾萬最好為什麼我們新北市只有兩萬六一個人的平均數啊那為什麼差了十幾倍"},{"start":4367.029,"end":4390.876,"text":"這個都是水平分配上面公式要去處理要去彌平的事情嘛結果都沒有討論啊沒有機會討論啊不過這個國家總體發展的情況來看你把中央政府的財政能力拿走之後沒有辦法調劑營需啦就是強者越強台北市越來越強他越抖越多越來越好越來越有錢"},{"start":4393.134,"end":4420.171,"text":"但是一些財政狀況比較困苦的縣市事實上就沒有辦法有辦法來有錢來處理一些問題像我的出生地臺東像澎湖縣像中南部的這些農業縣市或是說持續建設的一些過去縱南清北產生後遺症的這些縣市就沒有辦法去克服嘛 對不對"},{"start":4421.732,"end":4446.863,"text":"是沒有錯是委員說的是好那說這麼多之後再問一個問題他現在給你調整了他現在給你這樣弄了要把你拖走3700多億了如果114年的總預算假設過這幾天或假設最好的狀況這一個會期延到1月21號以前通過或是沒有通過明年開春2月1號再任之後到2月3月來補通過"},{"start":4449.076,"end":4475.251,"text":"你的困難是在要如何解決?像現在中央政府平均都要找到20幾%那每一個施政項目如何去調劑?如何去調配?這一部分主計長你有什麼意見?因為相關的一個因應措施行政院目前正在研究還是必須要等相關因應措施我知道你的相關因應措施就是復議最多就是提視線嘛"},{"start":4476.496,"end":4484.744,"text":"那假設這兩個最後沒有辦法通過的時候你這個預算114年的預算你要如何執行我現在是問這個問題啊最壞的狀況來講的話你要怎麼辦啊"},{"start":4488.789,"end":4508.022,"text":"坦白說如果說我們預算通過我們其實是照案執行但是我們如果將來是必須面對要有刪減的部分像預算的籌編其實每個計畫要討論是要發生相當的多的時間那每個部會要減哪些的計畫還是必須主一的一個討論然後就針對這個部分他哪個計畫要保留哪個計畫要刪減"},{"start":4512.165,"end":4533.483,"text":"然後來做討論所以這個部分也相當耗費時間了所以這個部分就是有它的一個困難度存在以上說明所以意思是說你現在都還沒有討論好你現在心裡也沒有答案啊沒有那現在這樣子這個攤子要如何解決啊其實我是蠻同意有一些學者的看法當然不是全部啦就這個案子不要附屬啊"},{"start":4536.045,"end":4557.582,"text":"通過一個你們自愛難行的 照理來講 這樣憲政的建議就應該多數黨要發 在國外的多數黨要發動倒閣嘛所以院長是不是不要附屬 可不可以考慮不要附屬啊我建議是不要附屬啦 如果以我對憲法的了解 不要附屬當然很有爭議"},{"start":4559.161,"end":4577.07,"text":"那那個爭議就把它提升到憲政結構看看如何處理啊啊你綁在這邊你被拉走了那麼多錢你的預算已經在這裡初步審查已經經過了馬上要經過二讀要三讀了結果跟他現在給你通過這個法律漢格根本無法執行"},{"start":4579.677,"end":4588.785,"text":"所以我其實以我的瞭解跟我的建議我是希望不要附屬不要附屬當然就會衍生一個重大的憲政爭議那這個憲政爭議如何處理讓憲法的學者"},{"start":4593.917,"end":4614.018,"text":"讓憲法的這個憲政機構之間來做這個把這個問題凸顯出來不然這個問題今年會遇到明年又可能遇到喔明年再給你提期貨法案雖然說不得維生性預算的提案可是現在都用法律案硬要把你搞死啊所以今年這樣明年那還可能再繼續搞你捏"},{"start":4615.751,"end":4629.195,"text":"所以希望能把我的話帶到我建議行政院不要附屬這個法案的那衍生的憲政爭議由憲法機構循憲政程序解決這是我的意見麻煩你們轉達謝謝謝謝委員我們謝謝吳秉銳委員今天我們請戴氏報委員"},{"start":4651.194,"end":4660.722,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請行政院的副秘書長李副秘書長以及財政部長以及主計長陳主計長三位長官好我是請教行政院的長官副秘書長"},{"start":4674.878,"end":4679.525,"text":"你們行政院發言人大聲講啊說預算要重編了到底馬上過兩天就變成114年了要重編嗎?請問要重編嗎?"},{"start":4690.435,"end":4714.932,"text":"要重編嗎?根委員報告那據我們了解他的原意是對沒有明定施行日期所產生的嚴重衝擊表達憂心並不是要重編並沒有要重編你們要去更正啊到目前為止都沒有更正這一句話所以他的原意是這樣子所以沒有要重編不然我們在審什麼?審頭一天嗎?你們都重編了我們要審什麼?"},{"start":4720.287,"end":4721.969,"text":"都可以呼呼咧 大家呼呼咧啊然後你看喔 你們看喔 我不知道主計長啊 你這裡面啊 開始這樣 整個 整個台灣 整個中華民國的會社出口"},{"start":4735.098,"end":4740.919,"text":"開始就估摸 你看喔 行政院估計15個機關、專案受影響加起來6300多億 還有修法以後公共建設受影響1200多億加起來7500多億 總管委只不過挖3700多億 怎麼你們列出來就7599億 來主計長你想怎樣"},{"start":4757.645,"end":4762.191,"text":"你嚇人你嚇人不是這樣嚇的嚇壞老百姓啊把台南老百姓都嚇死啊我們總共就是分給地方3753億結果你一天列就列7600億了你到底是什麼口惡老百姓喔"},{"start":4772.765,"end":4787.115,"text":"你是恐嚇人家喔?主計長啊?你出話就恐嚇喔?我們是以3兆1,114年3兆1扣掉1兆8了就是1法律1,剩下1兆3那1兆3裡面的各項計畫必須3減28%這樣所以各計畫影響第一個我們原則是平均3減因為我們還沒討論到底3減哪一個計畫所以我們必須詳細討論你到底討論沒有"},{"start":4800.903,"end":4807.846,"text":"所以目前還沒有討論,但是要討論的時候就是說目前一般性通案刪減28%,3753就要刪減28%每一個計劃都要刪減28%,這樣就7599個不對啊你總共就3700多億而已啊,你怎麼會變7599億啊,為什麼這樣子呢?"},{"start":4825.993,"end":4827.114,"text":"這個副秘書長啊你也當過副主席長啊"},{"start":4851.328,"end":4879.362,"text":"你們今天是報告給我看,總共一頁,一張紙啦有夠不負責任啦,對主席大不敬啦,對我們財委大不敬啦今天來講,叫你說,叫你提一個因應財劃法修正,你們要需要重編,是我要重編,因為你們說重編結果你們總會有一頁,然後跟有關係的只有在第三段寫了一下簡單來講就是不接受"},{"start":4880.629,"end":4902.569,"text":"你的意思百萬文講就是不接受那個龔秘書長是不是這個意思不接受跟委員說明齁再次的說明不接受是不是發言人的原意是對未明定施行日期所會產生的嚴重衝擊表達憂心阿就是不接受嘛就是不接受嘛"},{"start":4904.151,"end":4925.891,"text":"對嗎?你是不接受?我們是全國最高的民意機構通過的法律案然後你就一下子就草草的幾個字不接受意思是不接受不接受好我們來看那你們準備怎麼做?行政院準備怎麼做?要不要提復議?要不要?請問你?要不要提復議?"},{"start":4929.911,"end":4954.428,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為行政院還沒有收到那個財劃法修正的公文阿你真的講不接受嗎那修到以後呢你都已經收到就提示賦予對不對我們收到以後我們會在憲政賦予的權利之下那合法的秩序之下尋求各種救助阿你一定把他賦予你絕對輸的阿阿所以再提示憲好重點在這裡"},{"start":4956.232,"end":4956.452,"text":"講清楚嗎?"},{"start":4956.452,"end":4957.593,"text":"那這個在這段時間都不能實施喔?"},{"start":4957.593,"end":4959.215,"text":"是不是這樣子?胡副市長 是不是在你提福利事項這段時間 這個新的財劃法不能實施是不是?"},{"start":4959.215,"end":4960.076,"text":"我問你是不是?我們是會循著合法的憲政程序來提各種問題你當過副主計長你知道嗎?"},{"start":4982.846,"end":5008.475,"text":"現在來講如果你提示線那整個就是要Pending啊這個等於3750幾億就暫時的Pending在那裡如果再配合那個已經沒有法源的大法官的會議用8個9的8大法官如果要把他解釋說暫時處分啊就忽忽忽忽忽忽忽忽忽忽就這個樣子啊"},{"start":5010.37,"end":5013.584,"text":"那你要考慮一下喔現在預算還在審喔預算還在審喔"},{"start":5016.755,"end":5022.136,"text":"因為剛剛主計長也說明過了那個是他們挑出來受影響的計畫那裡面的影響的金額的話約略會有28%受到影響並不是全部"},{"start":5046.603,"end":5047.724,"text":"7,599億幫你通緝是這個樣子主計長你可以看"},{"start":5058.338,"end":5076.074,"text":"請問你有沒有對各縣市的主計人員下達命令比如說臺北市、台南市、高雄市這些主計人員說你們要配合修法有沒有做這個事有沒有有沒有下達命令"},{"start":5077.557,"end":5079.638,"text":"目前正在會長當中"},{"start":5103.223,"end":5113.595,"text":"我去問過幾個縣市了他們說錢只要下來他們馬上辦追加預算地方政府一點都沒有問題可以辦追加預算一聲立下辦追加預算問題都沒有問題"},{"start":5122.878,"end":5135.906,"text":"所以我強烈的執意要講不要亂砍計畫新的補助要砍哪一些你剛講7599億這樣就亂嚇人我們來看來其實阿要調整的就可以調整阿台電郭志輝部長講了N次阿"},{"start":5146.943,"end":5175.752,"text":"他可以借錢啊你為什麼給他追加預算一千億呢暫緩啊台電一千億的增資暫緩啊潛艦兩千八百億國安委員會已經講了分三期不要一次通過兩千八分三期九百多暫緩以緩計期加起來就三千億了然後經濟部、蘇貨部亂補助一通加一加"},{"start":5178.486,"end":5183.789,"text":"三千七百多億輕輕地都挖用不用心根本不是回到第一哪裡有這個東西你們就是用這個來恐嚇老百姓來整老百姓你看有租金補貼你看有掃紙畫你看有污水處理恐嚇老百姓"},{"start":5206.122,"end":5213.597,"text":"因為你們沒有認真去思考怎麼樣用你們的角度然後配合修法通過給他最適當的處理"},{"start":5216.482,"end":5233.74,"text":"對不對 結果一來就說 啊大筆劃 你們都印象喔 大家統統砍28% 啊大家拼命在叫 沒有人啊 沒有立法委員說要去砍國防預算啊 沒有啊 所以這個國防預算2947是假的勒 啊勞保的補補1200億 啊這個是假的勒 啊社會主宰補貼400億 啊這個是假的勒"},{"start":5240.162,"end":5244.333,"text":"根本就不是這樣子啊!你就隨便下來!你們專門啊!主計長啊!"},{"start":5248.379,"end":5256.326,"text":"我完全是政治鬥爭的語言喔我們要砍一砍去找可以找到錢不會影響民生的不會影響國防的對你怎麼影響一筆一揮哇 通影響"},{"start":5274.424,"end":5298.84,"text":"這個叫做隨便亂講,就是用政治語言陳主計長,原來我對你印象還不錯但是你提供這個表,老實講讓我對你的評價腰斬腰斬啦,你這個叫政治語言啦用政治語言嚇老百姓說你看,通靈影響齁,燒紙貨影響齁,治安影響齁,污水處理影響齁沒有立委看你這個東西啊"},{"start":5303.603,"end":5318.717,"text":"我剛講的回到我剛那一頁經濟部的2000億砍掉啦不要急啦因為他自己可以借錢啊他有辦法而且你還有稅計剩餘來部長財政部長請問你今年稅計剩餘有多少稅計剩餘是在組總這邊來計算的"},{"start":5326.397,"end":5326.837,"text":"到現在為止114年呈現的是158億"},{"start":5342.085,"end":5369.541,"text":"一百一一四一百五十八一一三是七千多億但是七千多億這個部分那個部分是因為第一個我要支付三三千九百多億的一個那個預後的一個相關的金額那是特別預算還有一個就是我支應我今年一一四的五百億好五百億這個部分我去我支援一一四年度的預算還有一個我我有一個那個以前非營利事業的一個"},{"start":5370.501,"end":5370.801,"text":"所以我們要討論"},{"start":5389.983,"end":5391.264,"text":"這是一個資源分配的問題我們三讀通過的法律"},{"start":5419.52,"end":5442.843,"text":"你按照一定的程序去救濟。如果到最後輸了,你還是要照做啊。你還是要想辦法啊。對不對?我剛剛說過了啊。不是所有的這些民生的去砍他嘛。我已經再強調一遍了。經濟部肥肉那麼多,亂補助。還要補助NVIDIA。NVIDIA有多少啊?幾兆美金啊?還稀罕你那麼一點點錢。"},{"start":5444.224,"end":5448.286,"text":"臺電的話那將來也會影響到電價臺電他可以去借錢他有辦法借錢他有辦法經營根本就不是問題我跟你講所以"},{"start":5473.937,"end":5498.3,"text":"最後一句話主計長對外面溝通不要用政治語言你列出來這個表就是政治語言這是政治鬥爭用的我對你今天的提出這個表表達非常強烈的不滿跟遺憾不要這樣子因為你也假說沒有認真去討論要認真跟他們討論各部會議你讓你解你才會解"},{"start":5498.94,"end":5500.16,"text":"謝謝賴司保委員 謝謝接著我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":5531.409,"end":5533.713,"text":"謝謝主席,有請主計長跟財政部長"},{"start":5543.228,"end":5564.538,"text":"委員好主計長好部長好我想今天我們委員會要討論的關鍵字就是重編還有一個是重修重編總預算是不是要重編重修財劃法是不是要重修那重編的話當然是主計長的責任重修的話就是我們部長要去面對的問題"},{"start":5565.979,"end":5586.445,"text":"好,到底要不要重編一個關鍵的問題就是說,我們看看這個圖表。主席長,我這個圖表是不是正確的?本來要有一個施政方針,然後才會有各部會進行概算。概算完以後行程之後,到8月底的時候要送預算進入立法院,是不是這樣子?要例行大概8個月之久,對不對?"},{"start":5587.225,"end":5609.322,"text":"是,那個施政方針的一個制定然後我們從編,要籌編預算大概就是要需要3到5個月所以我剛剛也談到了就是所有計畫如果要刪減也必須要跟各部會逐一去討論對,逐一討論,要重新來一遍所以說這也就順您口頭所說的自愛難行這自愛難行不只是剛剛的預算啦剛剛講到說什麼那個潛進預算2800億2800億不是本來就要分三期的嗎?不是,是不是?"},{"start":5616.567,"end":5617.407,"text":"總預算如果通過的話你就是召喚執行"},{"start":5643.895,"end":5660.341,"text":"照案執行之後後面有一個救濟的程序暫時處分先復議暫時處分然後再釋憲嘛對不對這三種狀況的話個人估計如果按照上次執權行使法的擴權法案到整個那個大法官會議解釋出來之後憨不啷噹大概8"},{"start":5661.101,"end":5676.85,"text":"半年之久啦5月17通過之後到半年之久到10月25號所以半年之久的時候你要因應的就是兩雙軌嘛兩個路線第一個我們來執行啦你現在所編列的總預算照案通過你就按照這種方式執行也就是沒有3減3753億的狀況下去執行對不對"},{"start":5680.592,"end":5702.215,"text":"是不是?照案執行就這樣子嗎?我也不能照案執行,我必須先控管,不然他就檢查完。就控管,萬一事件沒有過,然後3753就在後半年的時候來執行嘛。所以說你現在是雙軌並進的方式嘛。如果那3753放在後面,如果萬一事件沒有執行的話,那3753就要開始處理嘛,對不對?"},{"start":5702.967,"end":5712.968,"text":"那3753處理之後呢接下來呢後續的部分你還有面臨一個雙軌的問題也就是明年開始你要編總預算啊是不是"},{"start":5714.011,"end":5732.829,"text":"那你是不是一樣要雙軌進行?是不是?一個是屬於如果假設事件有成功的話也就是說或許認為大法官會議解釋說這個通過的財政收支方法基本上是違憲的話那你是不是按照原來的假案對不對?"},{"start":5733.59,"end":5754.004,"text":"那麼議案的部分呢是不是變成說如果說事件失敗的話那是不是你還有另外一個可能性就是說你要編那是不是你不是告訴本席明年的這個預算是不是要編兩種走兩種途徑對不對所以實際執行是有他的困難在對阿是不是要用雙軌的方式嘛我問你嘛要面對這個問題嘛是"},{"start":5755.675,"end":5767.321,"text":"但是中央部會各個部會編兩種預算嘛對不對那是不是以後的縣市政府也要編兩種的預算你說跟地方的主計人員是這樣告知"},{"start":5768.274,"end":5796.099,"text":"有可能啊因為這種屬於不確定的狀態嘛屬於可能凍結的狀況嘛凍結的狀況的情況底下你經過半年持久很有可能一個呢走向有效一個走向無效嘛是不是所以不論是今年的明年的預算的執行面也好或者呢明年的預算的編列面也好都會面臨雙軌的部分主計長你是不是要拆開四種可能性來去進行明年的整個預算編列與執行是不是"},{"start":5796.667,"end":5818.823,"text":"所以我們本身就說他在編預算、抽編預算方面會有很大的一個困難說很大的困難嘛講白一點更何況你剛剛講了3到5個月讓你整個四限案明年如果按照我剛剛推估半年之後你到說3753要執行你說要重編有可能嗎?因為3到5個月不是到年底了嗎?"},{"start":5819.861,"end":5848.124,"text":"主計長你要直接的講出你的困難點啊因為你現在沒有辦法重編嘛你現在沒有辦法重編嘛還是你要進行重編不可能嘛不可能的情況底下你要等到四限完以後再重編的話那不是到年底了嗎對不對是不是主計長你要回答我不要點頭啊是是這樣子嘛所以非常的可能自然難行的情況底下你要講清楚你要講清楚所以你等到四限暫時的狀態你也沒有辦法處理"},{"start":5849.921,"end":5869.526,"text":"事項結束之後我剛剛憨不爛當說6個月如果它是7個月8個月呢9個月10個月呢你還有重編的時間嗎有沒有就沒有了啊對那如何重編依照你現在的狀況你也沒有辦法重編啊不是嗎對不對主委長你要回答"},{"start":5870.248,"end":5895.988,"text":"是目前如果說是現在未定的狀態那我必須先控管3753不能執行好這是一個關鍵問題嘛好那你今天你今天昨天在報紙上又有提到說如果說錢要隨同事權要隨同錢來做移轉嘛昨天有提到這個嘛要修正所謂的這個行政行政作用法嘛好那你口中的行政作用法是哪些法"},{"start":5897.216,"end":5917.407,"text":"例如說有關那個地方制度法相關事權的一個還有一個相關的例如說龍寶啊老寶相關的一個負擔的一個機關的一個修改負擔的修改也就是說應該下放給地方還要下放給地方嘛老寶啦龍寶啦等等還有地方制度法的事權的一個下放責任的下放錢的下放好那問題來了那個莊部長"},{"start":5921.289,"end":5937.728,"text":"委員長,你之前一直講說不應該倡訴立法,你跟地方政府一直有在進行溝通嗎?對不對?你覺得你這個地方溝通還會不會持續進行?原來我們溝通大概就是指標的部分已經把80幾個"},{"start":5938.989,"end":5959.839,"text":"幾個指標都濃縮有個共識唯一沒有共識是三個我想那個指標的定義我們之前花很多那是橫向的部分嗎每一個指標對要不然就指標背後的含義大家要能夠就一個權重比嘛比清然後才能夠彙整加下來接下來就是權重權重以及調整系數因為其實我們在跟地方政府討論的時候地方政府的意見都能夠充分的表達"},{"start":5960.519,"end":5988.659,"text":"比如說人口的部分部分縣市也告訴你說你不能只用單一人口數因為人口裡面有結構的問題沒有我只問您說你會不會持續跟他們做溝通還有包括地方制度法你有沒有打算要修地方制度法你要保留一個重修的可能性嘛有沒有可能因為為什麼部長我提醒你一點如果說將來真的有要執行所謂的這3753例的時候那個困擾可能不是你喔地方政府很大困擾喔是不是"},{"start":5989.7,"end":6004.108,"text":"如果今天拿到的錢是直接把它分掉福利那很好處理啊可是今天的錢如果是要執行事情的話那要耗費很多的人力欸還有包括他今年度的施政計畫當中有沒有包括這3753億啊 對不對"},{"start":6006.409,"end":6021.456,"text":"因為在那個中央統籌分配稅款我們會在這個年度開始前的四個月之前就要通知各地方政府次年可以分得多少那他就根據這樣子去編列預算所以他原來的預算裡面並沒有含這個3753億嘛他工作計畫都沒有這些他拿到這個錢要怎麼規劃 對不對所以說你從這個角度來說也是自然難行嘛 對不對"},{"start":6031.977,"end":6039.081,"text":"所以那個部長我要跟您說的是說你在之前的溝通的那個部分著重於水平分配那接下來是中央的這個分配的配置的情況底下或許將來他們遇到的問題說其實我真的不需要這麼多錢"},{"start":6055.691,"end":6074.582,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6075.531,"end":6086.169,"text":"現在說宏觀調控的部分 剩下兩個可能性嘛一個是一般性的補助 一個是計畫性的補助嘛 對不對計畫性的補助應該沒有什麼太大的問題啊因為主控權在你嘛 是不是"},{"start":6088.14,"end":6107.306,"text":"是嗎?那一般性的補助因為已經被匡列可是你當初一直講說因為行政院主計處一直講說114年度的是2051億好像你感覺上次叫115年所謂這個法才會執行一樣但事實上不得少於修正施行前的一年113年度其實是2303億"},{"start":6109.267,"end":6131.449,"text":"對不對是23031正確的講法是23031對啊是23031不是2051嘛所以這種情況底下我必須說如果說你這個一般性補助應該沒有也不是說毫無條件說要補就補嘛你總是要有一個執行的標準嘛它的效率它的執行率要怎麼樣你要不要給這筆錢有沒有一個標準在"},{"start":6133.274,"end":6162.586,"text":"因為一般性補助主要是在於均衡就是說有不均衡的部分我們給他一些的協助所以主要是第一個限制有差短的部分我們優先來補助那第二個就是說我們會補助他教育、社會還有基本設施相關的一個部分那他錢都已經夠了這些的補助應該也就不用了所以他主要的一些項目都已經不用了所以你要把一般性補助跟這個所謂的這個統籌的部分重疊的部分你要抓出來大家多少億你有沒有抓過"},{"start":6163.464,"end":6173.278,"text":"有那個基本設施相關的補助是1042那差短補助目前已經很少了剩下1100這個2000多億當中還有1042是重疊的這個就是以後可以縮減的空間"},{"start":6179.787,"end":6185.374,"text":"另外一個部分我必須要跟你講你這個主計長擔子很重我剛剛講說你要走雙軌未來走雙軌現在走雙軌之外你現在還面臨兩個問題行政權有他的行政權政策規劃的主張要落實"},{"start":6196.289,"end":6220.702,"text":"立法院現在是在野多數他也想要透過這個立法的方式來指揮你行政權譬如講最近又有多一個之前的禁法補助多了225億之前這一個公糧補助多了90億最近的健保費65歲免健保費要多65億也就是說落選的總統候選人他要完成他的政見透過立法的方式來執行"},{"start":6222.524,"end":6234.275,"text":"當選的總統候選人也有他的政見要執行啊你變成要執行兩個一個當選的一個是落選的三七五三一啊對他們來說是輔選的也就是說他們未來要輔選他們的那個縣市首長的選舉啊也就是當選的政見也要落實那個那個"},{"start":6242.739,"end":6244.322,"text":"如果執行當政者的這個狀況還有落選的狀況那你會不會舉債"},{"start":6254.831,"end":6258.834,"text":"這個舉債的部分要請財政部來好來財政部來15%嘛總共我跟你算過啦2685億嘛舉債其實我想各位委員也都重視所謂的財政紀律不輕易舉債而且公共債務法裡面也有流量跟存量的管制"},{"start":6277.987,"end":6290.054,"text":"雖然25%全部補,取代到2685你還是28%的3753你還是補助不到嘛,還是差1000億嘛而且財政要有韌性財政紀律要維持嘛那我問你現在財政紀律有辦法有維持嗎當選要落實他的政見啊,落選要落實他的政見啊"},{"start":6296.421,"end":6318.789,"text":"財政要有一定的空間留著不能全部把它用可是你要面對這個政治的現實啊比如說你就像發生疫情等等的時候必須國家要有一個財政的能力來去應用那是後面的部分你還有一個舉債2.8兆當然是預留未來變數我可以理解嘛但是現階段你就面臨一個雙重的問題落選要落實他的政見當選要落實他的政見否則的話你難道把當選的政見不執行要執行落選的嗎"},{"start":6323.251,"end":6323.571,"text":"謝謝主席我們請主記長陳主記長"},{"start":6357.216,"end":6372.889,"text":"主計長早安我覺得你還是那個綜合老實的主計長還是要給你加油鼓勵那我想就是延續郭國文委員的一個議題我想財劃法不是不能"},{"start":6373.55,"end":6373.83,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6390.26,"end":6406.441,"text":"可以有機會來修正那可是現在就是說在三讀通過了以後那你有沒有想到就是說這個財劃法因應的一個方式他可能走向視線還是走向公投還是走向修法"},{"start":6407.663,"end":6427.484,"text":"這個其實都需要時間。主計長你覺得就是說如果在未來我們假設他其實是就有一個視線那行不通的時候那就有一個公投那在未來在這麼短的一個時間內有沒有辦法再重編這個預算"},{"start":6429.718,"end":6449.284,"text":"原則上我們是因為預算整個是相當耗費時間的一個預算抽編所以一般我們大概都是需要將近5個月左右那之前的施政方針的討論更不用說那所以這個部分呢我們在將來如果一定要刪減的時候我們也是必須要跟部會"},{"start":6450.285,"end":6464.397,"text":"每個計劃去做討論到底每個要刪減多少但是如果一般性的原則就是說通案刪減的部分就是28%那如果說我這一項不刪減其他就是要提高刪減的可能為什麼不刪減是這樣子"},{"start":6465.578,"end":6492.944,"text":"是,我想那個主委長在這裡我們提到的一個國防安全還有社會福利醫療的一個服務就是說我們的心藥我們的癌症用藥其實這個都需要中央的一個補助這個不是勤勞啊這個現實存在的就是勞工的照顧還有我的農業我必須要為台南講話在這一次的一個財劃法的一個分配裡頭台南是一個重災區啊"},{"start":6494.424,"end":6515.77,"text":"您也非常的清楚,那台南以農業為主就是說在它的土地面積換算它的占比如果從本來的20%那降低到10%的話其實我們的農業發展是受限於很大很大的一個未來性那重大的公共建設還有科技跟產業的一個發展其實有時候"},{"start":6516.99,"end":6530.436,"text":"我每天在那個財政委員會裡頭那這個禮拜是那個陳醫生委員召委那上個禮拜是我當召委我有時候都會覺得就是說到底這個我有時候聽聽聽聽的都錯亂掉了"},{"start":6533.617,"end":6554.588,"text":"到底什麼是對的什麼是不對的可是真正的就是沒有錢嘛真正的就是說中央被掏了3753億以後那到了地方地方他其實多出來這些錢可是事實上這些事誰來做這個有時候就是"},{"start":6555.749,"end":6555.769,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":6586.169,"end":6586.53,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6604.687,"end":6605.568,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6631.07,"end":6653.332,"text":"你不能減少的法定的移﹖排除不能減少的一個法定那個預算1.8兆這個已經就是說我們知道就是說你所有的所有的應該是說人事費用啦人事費用還有這個退休的這個58%裡頭這個全部都不能減了可是在這裡我們看到主計總處他"},{"start":6655.093,"end":6678.269,"text":"會影響到的包括了15項的一個計劃型還有基本需求還有10項的公共建設還有科技的發展這個總共已經非常清楚算出來就是要7599億也就是說在這將近7600億的計劃裡頭我們要砍掉一半的經費那主席長我想請教你如果砍掉一半的一個經費的話那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":6681.557,"end":6693.341,"text":"這個部分主要是這樣子因為我們如果是今年度3兆1扣掉1兆8與法定1我們還剩下1兆3那1兆3我們去要減掉3753大概要減28%"},{"start":6697.102,"end":6717.172,"text":"但是如果說我們有現在說國防經費我們不減那國防經費不減那這個列為不減那我其他項目就必須相對提高減剩37%那你如果說我現在我的公共建設不減或者我的科技發展不減那我其他的相對又要再往上提升"},{"start":6717.692,"end":6744.843,"text":"所以這個部分呢他三減的百分比是根據討論的結果說看哪些項目他是不要減哪些項目要減那如果哪些項目不減其他項目他減的百分比就一定會大於28%可是主計長現在每一個委員會其實都不斷的在審就是我們114年的一個年度的預算但是審過了以後那你就是說要減不減在這個過程裡頭"},{"start":6747.424,"end":6771.916,"text":"我們需要多少的一個時間來做這些處理我們預計一般我們一個預算的籌編大概都是3到5個月還是要3到5個月 他說我們必須要跟部會相對的一直在做討論是 討論檢討說哪些計畫要減哪些計畫不要減是這樣所以我們預先必須 主計長 這個有沒有違憲如果你慢了5個月有沒有違憲"},{"start":6773.355,"end":6787.79,"text":"因為他是分配每個月一般這要看財政部他整個撥款的分配如果說我在今年度如果他是今年生效我在今年我有分配給他3753他就符合規定"},{"start":6791.058,"end":6818.251,"text":"所以這個也不會影響到說中央的一個政策還是地方政府的一個運作這五個月裡面會不會影響到這個部分還是會影響因為為什麼有一些經費你如果要減你中央必須要先相對的控管起來不然到時候你用了那到時候沒有的一個經費可以三減那這就會有問題所以這個部分在執行之初就一定是要先控管起來"},{"start":6818.251,"end":6818.571,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6838.467,"end":6855.88,"text":"所有在場的一個官員在提到了就是在下一頁我們都看到了這個財劃法的一個修法排擠到中央的一個政策其實這個都不是恐嚇也不是情樂我們看到了公共建設還有科技發展這個1206億里頭的一個計劃案"},{"start":6859.102,"end":6886.933,"text":"其實適用在中央留意的一個改善跟調適的一個計畫就158億還有龍田水利橫跨的永續發展50億還有整體性的一個滯洪花那個黃災這個46億還有汙水處理汙水處理的一個190億這個本來在我的將軍我有一個海淡廠160億即將就是已經那個都是已經結標了那這個會不會受影響"},{"start":6888.698,"end":6908.648,"text":"這個部分當然如果我們必須刪減經費對縣市的補助第一個因為必須要做刪減那刪減大概可能第一個就是要減少補助的一個比率或者是說延後往後延長完成的一個期限所以這個必然是受到影響的"},{"start":6909.648,"end":6910.148,"text":"主計總處陳主席"},{"start":6929.363,"end":6941.069,"text":"如果我們規劃調整2025的總預算的一個做法跟時間就像你講的就是需要五個月的時間那我們利用追加減預算可能這樣做嗎?"},{"start":6943.204,"end":6961.46,"text":"要看將來我們救濟程序的情形是如何啦這個部分當然就是說一定是會影響到嘛這個你應該要把這個影響到民生的權益的這一些問題他可能就是讓這整個社會進入一個"},{"start":6962.441,"end":6984.769,"text":"快速然後就是一個是跟全沒有辦法好好的去就是做討論的時候這些事情該如何處理這個我覺得你們都必須要非常明確的說出來而不是就是說擠牙膏式的我們問你們是什麼你的困難在哪裡你才講出來我跟你講這個國家是大家的"},{"start":6985.549,"end":6985.569,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":7005.851,"end":7031.724,"text":"就是主計長就是說修法他沒有通盤的考量事前的一個劃分那我們把錢徵取到地方回到地方然後就像我們非常清楚這個礦區稅、土地稅全數回到地方增加了守得稅跟營業稅一柱分配的一個稅的一個比例都沒有調整規劃支出的一個事項這個其實是我們擔心的"},{"start":7032.364,"end":7051.441,"text":"在中央之前承接省府的一個那個業務的時候我們的老龍津貼這個195億這事情誰來做這個勞健保惠用915億事情誰來做還有就是說在我們直轄市這個省立學校的350億還有我們的鼠立醫院的450"},{"start":7054.824,"end":7068.04,"text":"其實如果一併回到各個地方政府來辦理的時候 這個相關的業務的調整跟移交的時間 那你們預計就是說起碼需要多少時間"},{"start":7069.361,"end":7091.106,"text":"因為它有一部分譬如說勞健保、勞勞津貼這些都涉及到修法的一個部分那這必須要經過修法譬如說有地方制度法還有一個全民健保相關的一個保險法還有勞工保險條例這些等的修正所以這個時間上是比較長"},{"start":7093.487,"end":7119.301,"text":"我想我的時間已經到了最後我再給這個主委長看到了一個這個是我們整理出來就是說在這一次的修法裡頭其實國民黨民眾黨兩黨的這個二修財劃法那非常清楚看到我們如果以苗栗縣為主的話這個苗栗縣以下所有分配的一個那個金額都是比較少的"},{"start":7120.041,"end":7148.38,"text":"這是一個非常有趣的一個議題還有就是說在六都裡頭的爭比那我們是墊底的這個龍躍縣就是被削弱的土地面積跟龍躍的需求啊縱北、青南、寄馬再次的上演我不是只有為台南講話我也為我們相對的就是我們的爛兄爛弟我們的彰化、我們的移民我們的嘉義、屏東其實都一樣啊然後再一次這個提醒那個主計長加油"},{"start":7150.862,"end":7151.222,"text":"財政部莊部長"},{"start":7170.914,"end":7194.891,"text":"委員好部長早部長12月20日財劃法三讀之後各部會聯手接力批評整個中央變成了一個消息製造工廠鋪天蓋地進行認知作戰我在上個禮拜三有聽到您在財委會接受質詢的時候說這個114年度要開始了那你並沒有說過"},{"start":7196.472,"end":7221.203,"text":"要這個總預算重編這件事情我有重復看去看那個當時的質詢但是我們在12月23星期一的這個行政院說明記者會裡面看到行政院發言人說財劃法的修訂會嚴重衝擊到明年度的總預算可能需要重新編列確實有講這句話對不對你們在現場你跟主計長都在現場"},{"start":7225.67,"end":7229.501,"text":"這樣亂講話：最終承受壓力跟砲火的還是您跟相關部會首長"},{"start":7232.349,"end":7256.624,"text":"部長你沒有說過要重編但是行政院發言人代表行政院長說可能要重編你們沒有討論出一個一致對外不管是內部的意見還是一致對外的說法像這樣子的到處放話財劃法修訂是關乎全民的一個重大政策不管是對立溝通還是對外發言都非常的重要也要非常的謹慎"},{"start":7257.805,"end":7270.438,"text":"尤其這種政策應該是要以事實與數據為依據不是這種散播恐嚇甚至於情熱剛剛有聽到委員一直在講情熱來誤導民眾"},{"start":7274.541,"end":7301.766,"text":"12月21日行政院長到花蓮視察他特別提到他說有人斷章取義但是我重複的看這個他的原話他說未來颱風來臨行政院也沒有任何的能力來到各個地方地震來臨各地方政府要自己非常勇敢的去面對這是他的原話"},{"start":7303.66,"end":7322.694,"text":"這個東西他講的這個事情目前各地方政府都在做並沒有因為財劃法的修訂才更努力更認真本來就很努力很認真所以我認為說院長講這種話真的是欠妥情的不只是情的"},{"start":7325.186,"end":7338.017,"text":"還混淆這種視聽甚至於賴總統公開表示說修法後努力發展建設的地方政府跟民眾將受到新法的懲罰這種說法危及"},{"start":7341.484,"end":7356.638,"text":"他更說危及各級政府的政策施行及人民福祉這樣的言論一個缺乏數據的支持更是無端恐嚇讓民眾對政策產生不必要的誤解我以舉台中市為例"},{"start":7357.919,"end":7383.52,"text":"臺中市人口第二多的城市也是繳稅給中央最多的城市之一每年上繳中央將近1400億財劃法修正後臺中市可分配到708億這是合理的財政回歸也是對地方發展的一個正向回饋完全不存在懲罰地方的問題"},{"start":7384.941,"end":7404.697,"text":"更重要的是修法後人民的福利政策也沒有因此而減少反而讓地方財源更加自主是將中央超徵的稅收還有財政盈餘還給地方所以這些資金能夠花在地方建設改善基層民生需求讓我們看到了"},{"start":7405.498,"end":7433.625,"text":"反而是各部會首長都跳出來說會衝擊到補助、津貼甚至加薪這些毫無根據的引發民眾的不安這是令人遺憾這種虛假不實的言論無助於政策的推動反倒是分裂國家動搖民心的這樣的行為財劃法的修訂完全不會排擠到國防補助之類的預算我們以去年的財政收支來看"},{"start":7437.782,"end":7445.448,"text":"去年預算結餘有607億債務收支餘額約15301530億營業相關營收約608億作業資金收入684億債務基金相關約390億這樣112年度總預算餘額為3819億是將總預算餘額完全分配給地方"},{"start":7467.112,"end":7484.884,"text":"根本不會排擠到本來就應該要編列的既有預算所以拜託各位部會所長不要再散播這些假訊息部長你身為財政專家你讚不讚同這些散布假消息的這些說法你可不可以告訴我"},{"start":7485.98,"end":7502.175,"text":"跟委員報告我想在今天的我們的行政院也好主計總處也好財政部的報告裡面都非常說清楚的說明114年度的總預算行政院已經籌編並且在大院審議當中我們希望能夠進出審議往前然後114年能夠按照我們的施政計畫"},{"start":7506.439,"end":7510.743,"text":"對於這次財劃法的修正因為他沒有討論到事權的一個劃分就是從中央部分隨時分配的部分就從中央"},{"start":7526.461,"end":7546.766,"text":"增加劃出一定的一個比例的稅款大概以114年的稅款來計算的話是到3753億那這個部分會的後續的一些影響因為等於是說重新增加出來要劃拨到中央統籌分配稅款裡面對於中央施政的一些相關的影響那個主計總處也請各部會在做一個盤整所以也已經都盤整出來"},{"start":7551.287,"end":7551.788,"text":"主席我想邀請主計總處陳主計長部長請回"},{"start":7577.566,"end":7591.708,"text":"主席長,這個修法會讓地方政府爭取到更多的資源也會實現更公平的一個財政分配並且釋出中央超徵稅收還有財政剩餘"},{"start":7593.407,"end":7622.647,"text":"那地方能夠更專注的一個改善基層民生與推動基礎建設的部分那我想認為說這個財劃法的修訂不僅僅是賦予地方更多的財源也是賦予地方更大的一個發展自主性才能真正推動基礎建設提升整體執行效率減少計畫延宕進一步的回應民眾的需求我就舉我自己台中市的一個"},{"start":7626.009,"end":7631.793,"text":"舉例,臺中市烏日大慶的鐵路高架,鐵路高架計畫延宕了十幾年"},{"start":7636.334,"end":7656.027,"text":"這個也展現了目前地方建設推動中央存在的挑戰還有一個需要改善之處113年2月23日提報可行性修正報告給交通部交通部在3月29日呈報行政院續行審議國發會6月19日含送審查意見給交通部"},{"start":7660.59,"end":7677.936,"text":"鐵道局6月27日還請臺中市政府回應及修正報告書臺中市政府目前正依國發會的審查意見修正報告書中這個全場只有3.7公里的高架計畫總經費83億中央負擔36億地方政府必須要超過46億的一個承擔"},{"start":7685.319,"end":7710.097,"text":"對於地方的財政就是壓力非常的巨大從這個問題可以看出來這個修訂財劃法是解決地方財政困難光是中央用公文往返卡台中卡了多少案子我甚至於敢假設說這是中央根本就是不想編列這樣的預算那尤其我們看8800億的前瞻預算台中市的軌道"},{"start":7711.554,"end":7723.879,"text":"並列軌道的一個補助幾率是零台中市第二大城市零那這樣子就可以知道說中央補助不只是大小園對於地方政府"},{"start":7725.231,"end":7743.606,"text":"還是按照顏色對就對了顏色錯就一毛都不給你所以中正的態度很明顯不管我們每一次在總質詢的時候要求行政院長快一點快一點但是行政院長他們就是行政院能拖就拖苦的都是地方政府"},{"start":7744.306,"end":7762.388,"text":"所以我想再舉個例子就南山節水溝台中市的防洪重要的非常重要的一個防洪工程第三期的工程要新闢上游長度2.9公里的部分經費約65億光是土地徵收還有第三戶補償就要接近30億了"},{"start":7763.709,"end":7786.257,"text":"中央目前回覆我們辦公室的就是說這個經費龐大無法一次到位所以沒有辦法那麼快編定這個就是雪林林活生生的中央在卡地方建設尤其這是一個攸關人民生命財產安全的一個防洪設施防洪建設我要告訴主計長還有部長不要從臺北看天下"},{"start":7787.897,"end":7814.941,"text":"財劃法的修訂真的可以幫助很多縣市的發展我剛剛提到了前瞻八千八百億軌道建設全國各縣市都得到補助人口第二的台中市補助款竟然是零零啊沒有啦所以一再的顯示中央的統籌分配款是大小顏而且透過這一次的財劃法修正才是長治久安的辦法可以讓地方得到更公平的一個對待"},{"start":7816.459,"end":7841.889,"text":"委員報告台中捷運南線預算在114年中要編列5億元那113年年度也編列2億元所以他並不是零他是有補助的所以他是整個一個捷運南線都有補助那前瞻也有他只是說他是按照他的一個工程進度在做編列預算所以目前軌道大概還有2700多也還沒有編那當然將來如果這個那個財劃法修"},{"start":7845.771,"end":7851.712,"text":"主計長謝謝我時間已經到了時間已經到了好謝謝好謝謝謝謝袁寬恆委員接著我們請王洪威委好謝謝主席我請我們主計長陳主計長財政部長莊部長還有我們的副秘書長行政院副秘副秘書長"},{"start":7880.626,"end":7896.408,"text":"好,三位長官根據今天的專題報告還有之前來做答詢都說財劃法修法之後那麼明年的總預算並沒有要重編對不對"},{"start":7899.954,"end":7918.752,"text":"我先確定這件事情我想請問在12月23號行政院召開記者會你看那個大大的標題為什麼我們今天會有這麼多的討論就是當天行政院你們兩位不來參加我們財委會的會議"},{"start":7921.855,"end":7927.426,"text":"得到當時郭國文召委的同意跑到行政院大張旗鼓的召開記者會結果"},{"start":7930.543,"end":7956.484,"text":"大家幾乎媒體的標題都是嚴重衝擊明年總預算可能需要重編那到後來大家就說到底誰說的那部長說我沒說主計長也說我沒說當然副秘書長也說我沒有說誰說的呢是行政院的發言人李慧芝她說的所以我想請問三位長官你們當天哪一位跟李慧芝說"},{"start":7958.385,"end":7962.987,"text":"這個明年的總預算可能需要重編,哪一位說的?哪一位去跟他講的?來,部長,你有沒有跟他說這個事?沒有。主計長?沒有。沒有。好,請問一下李國興秘書長、副秘書長?沒有。都沒有。好,那這不就羅生門嗎?"},{"start":7983.399,"end":8003.508,"text":"行政院召開記者會何等重大如果我們的財主單位包含我們的副秘書長都沒有告訴我們的行政院發言人說會讓明年的總預算要重編為什麼他在記者會上膽敢提到說可能需要重編"},{"start":8004.788,"end":8015.502,"text":"這不是假訊息嗎?行政院發言人搞半天是釋放假訊息,擾亂政府,擾亂預算秩序的最主要的罪魁禍首不是嗎?"},{"start":8016.849,"end":8041.927,"text":"所以我要特別講財主單位我們看到那個記者會他這個發言人站在中間好不威風你們財主兩大首長站在他旁邊你們兩個是soga嗎?你們兩個是人行利牌嗎?為什麼這麼重大的事情竟然可以有一個行政院的發言人胡說八道搞到我們今天還在討論這件事情"},{"start":8045.512,"end":8068.868,"text":"所以今天我確定了三位都沒有跟他講這個事他憑什麼講他懂嗎不懂總預算在那邊胡說八道行政院的這一場記者會荒腔走板釋放假訊息擾亂政府擾亂預算的秩序該當何罪龔秘書長啊"},{"start":8070.509,"end":8084.174,"text":"你應該立刻去跟卓院長報告這個發言人應該被立刻撤換怎麼可以胡說八道到這種程度呢好另外也請教副秘書長你剛站上來請問一下"},{"start":8088.308,"end":8111.257,"text":"我們後來通過了三法那麼民進黨把它稱之為所謂的三大惡法包含選罷法、限訴法跟財劃法我們現在很得到確切的消息限訴法、行政院已經決定向立法院提復議所以我想請問副秘書長"},{"start":8113.827,"end":8140.046,"text":"請問一下財劃法會跟立法院提復議嗎?跟委員報告那行政院目前還沒有收到財劃法修正的公文那收到以後呢我們會在憲政賦予的權利下用合法的秩序下尋求各種救濟的程序所以你們有可能提復議案是的好那你們有沒有可能提釋憲"},{"start":8142.942,"end":8148.29,"text":"這個部分也在研議中也在研議中除了事項也可能提暫時處分嗎?這個部分倒沒有聽講比較沒有討論到但是復議案跟事項都有提到"},{"start":8159.099,"end":8180.865,"text":"討論到都在演繹中演繹中所以我覺得我們部會首長我同不同意是一回事但是你們到底事實是如何非常重要所以我剛才講那個行政院的記者會簡直是真的是很離譜然後這個發言人竟然在那邊毫髮無傷聞風不動"},{"start":8183.926,"end":8210.997,"text":"愛亂講就亂講這是絕對不能夠接受的我想先請李副秘書長先回座我請部長跟主計長因為在財劃法通過之後黃偉哲也是一個釋放假信息胡說八道的一個習政首長他竟然說北部吃肉南部喝湯"},{"start":8213.262,"end":8225.2,"text":"黃偉哲完全不懂財劃法完全沒有去用功去研讀財劃法通過之後或通過之前"},{"start":8226.638,"end":8247.857,"text":"那麼各縣市所拿到的所拿到的不管是統籌款或者補助款我們一直在談財劃法事上除了統籌款部分財劃法這次修正的第30條有一個非常重要的就是補助款不能低於前一年度的補助款這個我看到我們主計處報告裏面也提到對不對我們可以看到如果統籌款加補助款"},{"start":8253.101,"end":8279.636,"text":"整個加計之後所以你不要一直在看統籌款還有補助款嗎財劃法還有補助款嗎黃偉哲你是看不懂字看不懂法是不是立法委員都白做了我們可以看到以六都來說總計統籌款加補助款第一名是新北市第二名就是高雄市所以請問一下有什麼"},{"start":8281.092,"end":8291.178,"text":"北部吃肉,南部喝湯呢?高雄市那個不是肉嗎?第二名都還不是肉那其他人是怎麼?吃雞骨頭嗎?"},{"start":8292.782,"end":8313.032,"text":"所以這邊一定要以正視聽事實上過去在補助款的部分我們談過很多次在補助款的部分南部的縣市事實上一直拿的蠻多的好另外看右邊我這個一定要去做一些澄清還要以正視聽剛才拉派委員離開"},{"start":8314.873,"end":8334.487,"text":"他剛才特別提到不只要幫台南喊冤還要幫其他南部縣市來喊冤我跟大家報告這個很清楚嘛我這個不會錯誤啦我們整個修法之後沒錯六都六都增加了是1719億增幅60%但是很重要的在六都之外的其他縣市政府"},{"start":8343.629,"end":8372.179,"text":"增加1956億比六都增加的金額還要多絕對數金額更多增幅達到1.7倍170%所以我們這次的修法不是只是去有利於六都而已其他六都的其他縣市他們才是財政狀況比較差的縣市所以這次也照顧到了"},{"start":8372.984,"end":8389.332,"text":"我跟大家可以講就是可以報告這個數字事實上你們行政院也曾經提供過以修法之後屏東增加多少增加147.8億嘉義縣增加120億雲林縣增加149億如果再看彰化彰化增加181億"},{"start":8401.516,"end":8422.584,"text":"好,所以我要講這些縣市事實上是像雲林他連他的人事支出統籌款是都不夠的他的人事支出還要來求爺爺告奶奶的但是在這一次修法之後一半以上財源給非六都財政狀況比較差的縣市"},{"start":8426.366,"end":8437.63,"text":"縮短城鄉差距這支財劃法很重要除了去平衡中央跟地方還有地方之間它也有很大的一個城鄉差距這很重要好來我們再看一下來第二頁我們可以看再下一頁因為時間有限我們可以看這個是一個"},{"start":8451.482,"end":8464.155,"text":"某知名財政專家的論文上面講稅收集中中央,中央集權又集錢,形成地方政府有責無權這是知名的財政專家的論文再來"},{"start":8471.372,"end":8499.38,"text":"來看在地方財政裡面以台南市財政最為沉重然後在後面這幾行說因為台南市財政惡化景氣低迷稅收多少但是呢在監審之後財劃法一直未真完善致補助款減少中央投手款分配比例不均等等因素特別提到幫台南市喊冤因為財劃法沒有修正再來"},{"start":8500.95,"end":8529.384,"text":"也看到齁第二行財劃法修正之後啊縣市自有財源可以增加那麼實際上呢把原來屬於地方稅的營業稅全數歸中央而原屬這個省負擔的警政支柱要移轉給縣市負擔縣市財政問題未獲解決反而加劇惡化這個都是在檢討財劃法為什麼都不修正中央集錢集權造成地方財政一再的惡化"},{"start":8531.005,"end":8553.857,"text":"那這些都是誰說的呢?來來主計長這些都是誰說的?誰的論文啊?委員當初台南市的時候是薪水花不出來他已經達到公債法的一個上限沒辦法舉債所以日子過不下去那時候我們當然是希望能夠修改那個公債那個我問一下這個論文是誰的?"},{"start":8558.435,"end":8569.941,"text":"這個我們就要期問要共欣賞好的著作你比很多根本都沒有論文或者論文亂抄的人好很多這就是我們主計長的論文"},{"start":8571.81,"end":8591.334,"text":"這就是我們現在站在台上主計長的論文所以我要講財劃法修正是長期以來各財政各領域學者產官學大家一致的呼籲為什麼到現在修了財劃法突然它變成惡法了呢還要去釋憲還要來提復義"},{"start":8595.015,"end":8615.616,"text":"不通嘛唯一就是換了位置換了腦袋唯一就是換了位置換了腦袋所以我還是希望不管部長也好或者主計長也好能夠本於你們過去的一個知識跟原來你們的信仰能夠來去正視這個財劃法"},{"start":8616.937,"end":8632.419,"text":"另外因為時間有限我其實有一個部分就是你們說要把那個一些業務應該移撥到地方我看到行政院跟主計處的報告裡面都有提到所以這個部分是不是可以在一個禮拜之內"},{"start":8633.661,"end":8649.295,"text":"能夠用書面的就是你們可能要修一些法嘛對不對地方制度法等等之類然後要談到就是地方中央地方政府之間業務之間要怎麼樣去做一波或者是調整"},{"start":8650.416,"end":8677.239,"text":"請,因為這個只有一句話我是還看不懂我們在寫什麼所以可以請一個禮拜之內請,這應該支出是屬於主計處的業務主計處可不可以給我們財委會一個比較詳細一點的報告因為這個涉及到相關的法令比如說老農津貼他就是農產部的是,我剛才有聽到你回答賴會員委員因為有一些要修法有一些可以不用修法對不對"},{"start":8677.679,"end":8677.759,"text":"李坤誠議員"},{"start":8705.68,"end":8706.32,"text":"今天就12月30日"},{"start":8724.346,"end":8750.376,"text":"明天12月31日禮拜三就元旦了那本來在這個20號如果順利的話這政交稅這個當沖降稅減半就可以完成了那就沒什麼問題了那27號還是沒有通過那現在呢只剩下明天院會會開但是我也不確定呢他會不會列入這個優先法案因為我看一下優先法案國民黨好像是想先脫老人福利法就業服務法"},{"start":8750.876,"end":8759.655,"text":"也沒有把這一個這個政交稅當初降稅減半納進去那我請教你那如果都沒有納進去明天沒有討論沒辦法通過的話那該怎麼辦"},{"start":8761.451,"end":8781.412,"text":"沒有,如果沒有通過的話就會造成這個有關那個券商就要用千分之三的來課當中了因為現行的法條就是到113年12月31日對,好,那就是用千分之三因為沒有這個再延三年嘛,就用千分之三那就會衍生後續的問題"},{"start":8784.094,"end":8802.599,"text":"現在我問過這個金管會他說這個券商他們都有現在要去面臨這個調整系統跟加班的問題包括人力成本系統的調整成本都很棘手那這個券商代徵也不是免費我們會給這個券商這一個"},{"start":8804.6,"end":8826.236,"text":"按照這個政交稅法的第8條按照這個機關要按其貸增稅額給予千分之一的獎金然後呢 112年呢政交稅的實增額是1793億然後呢貸增金獎金的總額是1.91那所以呢平均102家券商平均每家是187萬那請教一下"},{"start":8828.678,"end":8837.365,"text":"那如果發生了這個空窗期這些電腦系統的費用調整跟加班的這些人力費用誰要來處理?誰要來負責?"},{"start":8837.365,"end":8840.947,"text":"券商?還是財政部?還是金管會?還是國民黨跟民眾黨?"},{"start":8843.498,"end":8863.304,"text":"其實財政部所支付的就是他代徵的一個,我們委任他去做代徵嘛,那所以按照那個實徵的數然後因地的比例給予而且有個最高限那自己這些費用的部分並不在於財政部要支付給他的那誰要支付這個費用那就是恐怕要券商自行負擔了券商自行負擔,那券商人覺得很倒楣"},{"start":8864.344,"end":8887.133,"text":"巴伯德說希望說趕快通過然後現在就有人力又有系統要調整所以接下來這些成本都只有眷方自己去吸收就對了要面臨這樣的一個問題而且這個整個會是比較複雜的是好那再請教一下齁那如果說啦齁這個在明天有完成這個三讀的話那這樣來得及嗎"},{"start":8888.547,"end":8914.546,"text":"如果我們真的希望是明天真的能夠順利的完成三讀後續的行政的一個跑的流程我們財政部會盡力的一個來做有辦法在一天之內完成嗎這個可能就沒有什麼因為接下來就是元旦了嘛對就是元旦了那我們盡力來做完這個部分而且能夠希望能夠盡快是我知道了那我就說因為接下來就是元旦了一天之內能夠完成"},{"start":8915.809,"end":8939.419,"text":"然後就是說這個一月二號開始就繼續一月二號就開盤了嘛 對不對對啊那就會運用但是交割的時間是在兩天後嘛一月六號交割所以我們一定會再用盡快的時間把這個流程跑完其實很重要就是讓券商也好股民也好社會大眾可以知道說後續因為現在是處於一個不安定的狀況是啊我們真的很希望大院能夠盡快審议三讀通過是"},{"start":8942.659,"end":8965.07,"text":"我們也希望我們一直列為優先的討論事項但是在野黨沒有把這個放在前面所以說如果明天萬一順利有三讀通過的話時間上是來得及我們財政部盡力的去做努力的去因為我們希望讓這個股市的資本市場能夠是一個安定的一個狀態是那如果"},{"start":8966.03,"end":8989.439,"text":"明天沒有辦法順利刪讀勒?要等到這一個再隔幾天5號這個禮拜五再刪讀勒?那我想金管會已經說他做了最壞的打算最好的準備券商都必須要做相關的一些調整那所以在這幾天交易的勒?就是一樣按照前面這三如果沒辦法趕在這個在這個一定時間完成那就只有按現行的法律來客徵然後等到刪讀之後113年就就"},{"start":8992.1,"end":9015.758,"text":"所以有可能有幾天是簽分之三然後三讀通過之後比如說禮拜五通過之後才用這個簽分之1.5會這樣子嗎我們的修正條文是它的起日在106年的4月幾號對不對然後到截止日所以目前是113年12月31號那接下來如果修法通過是到116年的12月31號"},{"start":9017.719,"end":9018.44,"text":"所以說如果這樣子還涉及到退稅的問題就對了"},{"start":9041.155,"end":9062.104,"text":"因為它是延續性的那所以說如果有可能就是說幾天的教育日是千分之三那但是因為如果通過之後就要退稅給這些人就對了對對對那可是就變得很複雜是不是產生一些因為整個是程式要做調整修正那涉及到的事情就很多了對"},{"start":9063.188,"end":9089.467,"text":"我是希望順利通過但是看這個樣子不一定能順利通過所以你們真的要做最壞的這個打算跟準備了對 是的 是的 是的我想金管會也在這方面在做跟那個證交所他們都在做這方面的準備工作好 那我請一下這個副秘書長跟主計長部長可能也要留步啦這等一下都是連貫性的謝謝 那我先問一下副秘書長好了"},{"start":9091.004,"end":9114.763,"text":"我先問一下在這個12月20日通過的這一個三個法案包含限速法、選罷法、財劃法行政院都收到了嗎目前只有收到一個財劃法還沒有收到目前收到什麼只有收到那個限速法只有收到限速法只有收到限速法財劃法跟這個選罷法都還沒有收到"},{"start":9117.405,"end":9140.101,"text":"這還蠻神奇的我不知道國民黨在做什麼打算就是說理論上這個通過12月12日通過理論上應該是他們會一起送給行政院那我不知道為什麼會先送限數法然後因為我剛剛聽你講我才知道說你們還沒有收到財劃法還沒有所以我就問一下那選爆法你們也沒收到也沒有"},{"start":9140.982,"end":9153.66,"text":"我不知道政協黨在想什麼不知道要他做什麼東西了不知道在想什麼東西我不知道所以現在財劃法還沒收到還沒有那如果財劃法都沒有收到的話那我們就按照舊的財劃法來做處理囉"},{"start":9156.521,"end":9175.055,"text":"目前是這樣子就是說我們會在收到財劃法修正的公文以後我們會按照憲政賦予的權利在合法的秩序下 尋求各種救濟的程序這我知道啦 這我知道那我請教一下這一個主計長好了我在你的報告裡面有看到就是說"},{"start":9176.016,"end":9198.349,"text":"基於這個錢隨事權移轉的原則要搭配事權的監套修正相關的行政作用法一波合理業務給予地方政府辦理這部分你們已經有沒有想到就是說因為我們本來一直在講說這個錢跟權要處理好那甚至地方制度法或是相關的一些法要做這個修法"},{"start":9198.789,"end":9209.231,"text":"那有一些沒有修法的有沒有在行政程序上面就是說因為我們少了3753億嘛那是不是就是給地方來做處理你們有沒有做好這個相關因應的準備"},{"start":9210.246,"end":9235.595,"text":"目前是還沒有但是等於是說各部會都必須要去檢討比如說他對縣市的一個補助的計畫是不是仍然維持他補助的比例是不是要縮減他這都必須要看整個一個檢討而且整個一個行政院施政方針到底是要檢哪些是不是全部都通案顯28%還是說哪些不檢哪些要檢"},{"start":9236.415,"end":9248.299,"text":"因為哪些不檢的話其他相對就要多檢所以這個部分一定是這樣的但是必須要主案去討論針對整個行政院的施政方針來配合討論說我將來是要怎麼樣的一個檢我認為你們要趕快去做這個處理"},{"start":9256.022,"end":9284.543,"text":"國民黨還就是反正就這樣推出去的還就是少了這3700的3億然後支出的話這個稅數的話大概平均會降18%那18%你說有國防、有財政、有交通都會少那你們就是要去做這個調整有些一定是超過18%那有些我們認為很重要比如說國防不能再刪了就可能會沒辦法刪但是沒有辦法刪國防那其他一定相對會減少很多嘛這是第一個"},{"start":9285.283,"end":9308.196,"text":"第二位就是說你們跟這個原來這個地方政府你們還有這個計劃型的補助款那有可能這個給的比率也會做調整啊因為我看到這個有台南市的立委就講有可能這個財劃法通過之後會得不償失雖然多了這個統籌分配款但是有可能計劃型的補助有可能會變零啊會是減少會不會發生這種情況就是計劃型的補助款會再做調整"},{"start":9310.855,"end":9334.337,"text":"調整是一定會但怎麼調整還是看部會的一個策略那第二個就是說其實像在計劃型補助是六都在偏多芝霞市的六都比較多啊這個部分呢所以六都的影響會比較大如果說要做調整那另外也說明一下就是說前瞻計劃裡面其實有4000多億都已經核定但是還沒有編列預算的部分"},{"start":9335.037,"end":9360.039,"text":"這個部分裡面軌道建設就佔2700多那這勢必也一定受到影響以上一個說明就是說齁除了這個已經從中央挖走3750之外現在齁國民黨他們還要通過這個老人福利法就這一個所得稅急峻齁未達百分之百分之二十啊齁他們現在大概有輿論壓力再修正是變成百分之五那如果這樣下去的話又是在挖中央的錢啊是"},{"start":9361.408,"end":9365.93,"text":"對,這個部分如果說中央增加負擔這個就是屬於法律115那這個部分那其他三減部會三減的金額又要往上提升是啊"},{"start":9380.595,"end":9396.628,"text":"如果齁,我再提醒啦,這個只是其中一個案子,老人福利法,有可能還有其他的錢跟法案,就是他從中央花了錢,但是呢,他又多了其他的錢跟法案,又讓你中央出錢,那你中央的錢是從哪裡來?部長,要舉債嗎?舉債的話,我們公共債務法也有在線的上線的規定,不是說"},{"start":9405.83,"end":9424.187,"text":"而且中央必須要維持一定的一個財政的韌性來因應國內外經濟情勢的一個變化其實我跟您討論過了如果把這個統籌分配款算進去再加上這個我們這個前瞻預算特別預算其實你已經沒有錢可以再去做這個那個舉債了啊你已經會超過這15%的上限了啊"},{"start":9427.971,"end":9430.733,"text":"舉債不可行只剩下稅數的部分來做調整來做刪除了"},{"start":9448.605,"end":9467.58,"text":"這個是全台灣人民要去共同去承擔的啦但是相關的一些作用法那些法案一些法條該做修正的你們要趕快先去做處理啦你們可能要加班做處理了這個年大概應該不是很好過了謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝李坤城委員接著我們請李燕秀委員"},{"start":9477.338,"end":9478.958,"text":"主席,我想先請問您一下, 您們現在有掌握各委員會審議預算的進度嗎?"},{"start":9513.764,"end":9516.832,"text":"是 那我請問立法院有沒有在擋預算?"},{"start":9519.158,"end":9546.938,"text":"沒有嘛齁好那這個訊息要讓外界全部都知道其實過去10年以來我們大概在年度12月31號審完預算了大概只有3年就是7年度101年度跟105年度完成刪讀大部分都是過完國立年後立法院才陸陸續續把預算審完但是也都沒有影響到所有整個行政院各部會去使用預算對不對"},{"start":9548.541,"end":9551.268,"text":"我今天要提的是二倍"},{"start":9556.909,"end":9585.234,"text":"二倍金是我們政府中央政府的應急錢也是人民的救命錢沒有錯嘛那各部會送進來要使用動惡的部分你們到底有沒有好好的一筆一筆來審議有有沒有有經過行政院還是直接交給你你全部通通買單我們審查然後那個簽行政院准"},{"start":9586.07,"end":9610.761,"text":"對不起你麥克風好遠我聽得不是很清楚我們審查以後簽行政院核准所以我觀察一下在113年度也就是今年度5000萬的動用二倍總共有11筆這兩天媒體上也有看到我的談話我相信你有看到二倍使用腐爛的程度不要說我們不給你"},{"start":9612.691,"end":9638.172,"text":"但是光是包括教育部拿來蓋校際研教園區還有外交部拿來辦住處的換約這個都不會是今年才知道的我為什麼請行政院副秘書長站在旁邊這些應該都不是今年才知道的為什麼會用動二包括內政部拿來辦理義難教招"},{"start":9641.229,"end":9643.011,"text":"這些該使用動惡嗎?主席長,你懂我意思嗎?"},{"start":9649.233,"end":9670.541,"text":"一般部會是這樣的他討論以後他原來的預算不夠支應所以我們預算動資二倍金他條件有什麼叫做預算不夠支應外交部拿來辦住處的換約這都不會是當下113年才知道他可能去年前年就已經知道時間到了要換約這件事情"},{"start":9671.201,"end":9697.511,"text":"但是他不確定性所以他沒有辦法說那個在當年什麼叫做不確定性他早就應該把這個事情每個部會如果都說我不確定性所以我都要用動惡來處理那還得了動惡當時法規上同意你用動惡的目的是什麼你們現在動惡是全部都用動惡來去做處理那你現在包括動惡簽完了之後很多還變成流用"},{"start":9699.366,"end":9712.812,"text":"包括以111年度為例子申請用動二的總共有1647萬那隔年有保留到隔年使用的有99.62%包括國發會買這個檔案櫃到最後也保留主計長這種東西怎麼用動二你不覺得很離譜嗎"},{"start":9731.232,"end":9758.773,"text":"國發會買檔案櫃然後最後保留我看還有什麼東西還有辦公室的搬遷跟整修議政署他花了1647萬你覺得這個該使用凍二嗎他臨時接貨要在定期內要做一個搬遷那所以這個搬遷不是在預計的範圍裡面這個早就應該這個早就應該是用一般的預算編入吧"},{"start":9759.636,"end":9781.853,"text":"包括一政署他要用辦公室搬遷跟整修他可以挪到明年或追加預算進來啊怎麼會用凍二呢他如果真的這麼急就用追加預算進來啊我們再來看怎麼處理啊怎麼用凍二你現在預備金是八山八海每一個部會想要用什麼都可以用换成是各部會另外一個小金庫啊"},{"start":9783.803,"end":9800.154,"text":"原有預算如果說他有修正計畫或者是他原來預算增加數量或者有其他 那個會就不用好好編列啦他就不用好好編列反正不夠到時候沒編 編的不夠精準我全部都用送二你通通都收啊"},{"start":9801.495,"end":9826.743,"text":"所以原則上其實我們是對比較臨時有需要的第一我看到的是你沒有去追究各部會的行政責任所以對他們來說反正我沒有編到沒關係我就到最後我就索技術我用動惡來處理這就好了反正行政院會簽合同意對他來說心態就這樣子啊在我看來這一筆包括辦公一南辦公室的這個辦公室的裝修跟整修包括國發會買檔案櫃"},{"start":9829.324,"end":9831.291,"text":"欸 這個很離譜捏 這個也來用動樂來處理你聽到你自己不會覺得這怎麼會用動樂呢?"},{"start":9837.091,"end":9858.668,"text":"我有沒有講錯?對,他就是說因為可能增加數量或者是說原來沒有預計到要...這跟增加數量也沒有關係那你就今年不要編明年再編進來就好明年公務預算一個檔案貴明年再編這有什麼但是用動二字就離譜啦不符合動二的規範使用"},{"start":9859.721,"end":9870.301,"text":"那你各部會送進來動案你也沒有所謂的行政責任雖然未來各部會就變成說反正編不夠沒關係我有一個小金庫可以用我就用預備金來處理就好了"},{"start":9871.374,"end":9872.175,"text":"當時你都沒有一個門檻,你心裡都有這三個原則"},{"start":9895.015,"end":9899.677,"text":"我還是再次強調是政府的應急前當國家發生重大的事件需要緊急用的時候或者是人民的救命前"},{"start":9922.895,"end":9941.423,"text":"目前在我看來,無論是買檔案櫃,或者是辦公室的搬遷,或者是拿義男教召,或者是外交部拿來辦住外處換租,我覺得這都不是第一時間起,這早就應該各部會。"},{"start":9942.623,"end":9960.579,"text":"要有提早的因應跟準備在我看來這些項目拿來用棟二是叫做包山包海這叫做腐爛的編列棟二而且更是流用的程度是非常高這更不合理你既然編了最後還用不到還變流用"},{"start":9961.843,"end":9966.428,"text":"在我看來你完全沒有把關嘛所以在我看來各部位的編不夠就這樣子使用就好了所以"},{"start":9979.723,"end":9999.759,"text":"我覺得這不符合我們所謂外界在觀察救命錢的使用所以會淪為各部會的小金庫所以我再一次認為我覺得主計處在這一個各部會使用動惡的把關上為了讓各部會未來精準地去編列各單位的預算"},{"start":10000.76,"end":10022.961,"text":"要更用心我覺得動惡的使用不應該是這樣的使用方式我再一次提醒我這樣子講應該合理啦行政院包括買什麼檔案櫃這個沒有那麼急啦各外交部換約的部分早在前一兩年早就應該知道早就應該去做好因應的準備他用不到他自己在留用就好了而不是在動惡裡面在留用"},{"start":10025.438,"end":10046.103,"text":"一男的教召的辦公室更是如此所以我覺得目前的說法沒有辦法去說服外界對於動二預備金的服用濫用跟流用這個我必須要讓行政院的副秘書長知道這件事情所以動二的使用不應該淪為各部會的小金庫"},{"start":10048.376,"end":10073.546,"text":"這個最近我在媒體上已經有指出來我也希望主計長你在這邊動惡的部分要更嚴格的把關然後最後我要再一次問一下財劃法的部分複利你可以請回那個到目前為止我剛剛聽到幾位委員的質詢的結果大概大部分大概都聽到無論是限數法或財劃法這個部分都打算走復議對不對"},{"start":10077.266,"end":10092.438,"text":"這個部分那個行政院還在討論我們相關的一個因應措施看我們他整個一個討論的結果但這個部分也會跟也要經過總統的核可嘛對不對走副議那總統核可對不對賴總統核可這部分我們要遵照那我再請一下副秘書長"},{"start":10099.994,"end":10123.305,"text":"因為程序是復裕之後決定要復裕不管這三個法案哪一個法案要復裕哪一個法案最後要走釋憲最後都要總統的核可對不對對所以也就是說這整件事情最後也要總統同意嘛對所以從今天上午聽到現在這三個法案最後做出的結果也都是賴總統的意志"},{"start":10124.588,"end":10140.662,"text":"我這樣講沒有錯嗎?我們會跟他報告,同意後我們對,到最後就是賴總統的意志嘛那到底賴總統對於這三個法案最後我昨天聽到在其他委員會有聽到說路上有提到說"},{"start":10141.923,"end":10163.954,"text":"我從媒體上有看到說到底會不會召集怨記協調的部分後來否認沒有那到底這三個法案會不會走怨記協調行政院跟立法院會不會走怨記協調會不會請總統出來做怨記協調有沒有這件事情你不清楚還是不知道還是不敢說你不知道媒體上有沒有看到"},{"start":10166.635,"end":10173.009,"text":"媒體上有聽聞有新聞有聽聞有聽聞所以你不知道我不知道"},{"start":10176.499,"end":10197.578,"text":"好,第一個我尊重了我覺得我覺得這整件事情這三個法案這三大法案每一個法案其實都是攸關人民不管是立法院在野黨的立場也好或你們的立場也好對於國家整個未來的運作跟預算執行都是洞見觀瞻我覺得大家也都在看"},{"start":10198.178,"end":10214.211,"text":"這三個法案之後也都在看未來朝野的互動是一個什麼樣的狀態立法院跟行政院的互動是一個什麼樣的狀態所以你今天代表秘書長在現場我覺得這三個法案後續的處理你們真的是要三思好以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝李延秀委員接著請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":10226.752,"end":10239.52,"text":"特別感謝主席跟我發言次序我們要邀請財政部主計處跟行政院李富密 行政院李富密委員好 三位好我們首先來請教財劃法"},{"start":10251.184,"end":10274.266,"text":"達到25年沒有修：歷任的總統：歷任的首長都親自說我們地方很窮我們希望財劃法終於經過25年在立法院三讀通過從原本的6比4一直到動審"},{"start":10276.788,"end":10299.776,"text":"75比25的財政比例動審之後動審的預算直接到中央來單位也歸到中央來但是有很多的業務還是放在地方所以這個情況產生75%中央25%財政地方所以地方非常的辛苦才會導致所有立院的總統"},{"start":10301.016,"end":10321.79,"text":"以及現任的總統當時在擔任首長的時候都急聲吶喊財劃法務必要修所以在現在情況之下我們修完了之後是65跟35所以本期要特別的請教在前幾天行政院長說"},{"start":10323.351,"end":10337.103,"text":"他願意要跟地方來協處所以首先請教要跟地方政府來協處的內容是什麼請教 三位請發言來 副秘書長來 一位一位說"},{"start":10342.062,"end":10343.743,"text":"請問什麼內容?所以跟地方政府要協處的部分是事權分工的原則啊?"},{"start":10359.111,"end":10360.392,"text":"市權分工,是嗎?市權分工那動審之後有很多的業務,中央沒有接回來地方在做啊?"},{"start":10377.384,"end":10377.404,"text":"主計長"},{"start":10393.208,"end":10408.054,"text":"他協助下協助什麼內容也是事權的一個部分事權報告一下就是當初75裡面15裡面有11是屬於省政府的業務那其他剩下4.3的部分是屬於地方"},{"start":10408.474,"end":10436.164,"text":"那你現在把15的部分的收入全部在歸地方那省政府的業務的部分很多大部分都留在中央包括全民健保包括老龍津貼包括直轄市的老龍津貼就已經回歸到直轄市來了啦你現在是主計長啊接下來我要告訴你的是什麼呢因為我們還有新增很多業務啊比如說你國立台中一中"},{"start":10437.124,"end":10460.256,"text":"現在改為市立台中一中以台中市為主我們有17家的學校這次新增一樣也編列在地方政府所以你現在我請教來主計長我請教現在我們的行政院長說要跟地方協處是協處事務分權分工是不是是這個方向嗎財政部長請問"},{"start":10463.277,"end":10484.344,"text":"院長我們告訴你說到底他要協處的是什麼內容跟委員報告財政收支劃分法第一個就是本來正常來說是事權先做劃分然後再做支出的劃分現在支出已經劃分了那勢必要回到事權去做劃分所以他現在主要你們三位回答的都是事權劃分嘛主要的協調內容是這個是不是應該是應該是應該是好來就這個所以本席要請教"},{"start":10493.257,"end":10515.295,"text":"地方歷任的首長、歷任的總統、現任的總統在這25年的過程都說財政收支劃分法必須要修必須要修所以我也希望行政院長我也肯定你終於在這25年在修法的過程你也不提版本然後也不跟地方來協處"},{"start":10516.656,"end":10545.425,"text":"等到終於通過25年沒修終於通過之後我也肯定終於聽到民意必須要協處我也希望這個溝通能夠讓我們人民讓地方政府他能夠執行得了這個是非常的重要因為政府是一體的對不對好所以本席要請教主計處第二預備金是政府應急錢是人民的救命錢對不對"},{"start":10546.806,"end":10551.41,"text":"對!這個是編列在你的第二預備金,這一稅金都是人民的納稅錢,是人民的救命錢啊!隨時動之第二預備金的重點!但是本席告訴你,本席告訴你喔!"},{"start":10573.189,"end":10597.245,"text":"也就是113年你的第二預備金動資的情況你寫了警察大學新設系所注音代表處管社換租替代役訓練經費保二總隊擴編轉型少年保護管訓計劃這些這些本來就是應該編列在這個年度的預算的項目啊"},{"start":10598.266,"end":10615.035,"text":"那你現在放在第二預備金你行政院大鼻灰全部由第二預備金全部由第二預備金去支應所以更離譜的是什麼主計長111年議政署已辦公室搬遷及"},{"start":10616.716,"end":10621.643,"text":"整修為由申請預備金多少申請第二預備金1647萬結果99.62%保留到次年度來使用可以如此嗎第二個國發會"},{"start":10632.558,"end":10655.476,"text":"以辦理公共檔案庫房移動式的這個檔案櫃為由來申請第二預備金630萬結果是什麼?主計長結果是什麼?結果是100%流用到次年度來用所以主計長你非常的專業跟精準啊你聽到這樣子你認為呢?"},{"start":10656.823,"end":10656.963,"text":"您認為呢?"},{"start":10687.963,"end":10688.924,"text":"那你認為這樣子的情況動用第二預備金是人民的救命錢"},{"start":10714.472,"end":10734.532,"text":"是緊急迫切需要的但是你給我本席一個理由說他因為沒有趕在5月所以不行李明在不行你怎麼可以會核准呢對不對你怎麼會動用到第二億北京的項目呢所以本席要請教民主技術要怎麼樣去督導"},{"start":10737.304,"end":10751.903,"text":"這種事情不要再發生我們人民的納稅錢我們人民的救命錢對不對怎麼可以如此百分之一百趕快大家來申請你行政院大筆一揮就全部納到第二預備金裡頭去"},{"start":10753.939,"end":10782.382,"text":"你覺得這個空間不管是時間還是你的向下有沒有改進的空間需不需要去調整請教是我們盡量來檢討然後也嚴加督促就是說你如果有動資第二預備金第一個就是應該要加緊辦理第二個就是有關不是很必要的我們就放到下一年度的一個預算來辦理本來就是應該如此嘛給你錢你沒有辦法用"},{"start":10783.603,"end":10786.045,"text":"謝謝楊卿英委員接著我們請吳立華委員"},{"start":10821.72,"end":10825.683,"text":"謝謝主席,有請行政院副秘以及財政部長、主計長副秘您好"},{"start":10834.471,"end":10851.604,"text":"今天來討論114年度的總預算到底要重編不重編事實上我們感覺行政院的態度很模糊在這裡我們也看到很多的報導也告訴我們今天的專報也寫著"},{"start":10853.385,"end":10875.477,"text":"其實中央43個主管部會大致有已經有33個已經完成初步的審議那地方政府呢也已經大部分都完成審議這個時候我覺得我們不應該讓人民讓地方政府無所適從我們比較擔心的是"},{"start":10877.218,"end":10891.87,"text":"我們這個地方的行政院的態度是不是也無所適從其實這個部分政府的態度非常的重要所以呢我就來肯定的問您您也肯定的來回答一下到底會不會重編預算"},{"start":10894.405,"end":10918.153,"text":"跟委員報告那當天行政院發言的原意是對未明定施行日期所產生的嚴重衝擊他表達憂心了那根據我們今天我的報告財政部長報告跟主計長報告我們沒有要重編預算好肯定的回覆沒有要重編預算那既然不重編預算我看到"},{"start":10919.193,"end":10946.814,"text":"要去刪減28%的預算這是各部會所以我也要請教一下主計長跟財政部長財政部長你應該清楚我前兩次的質詢我都有一再的提到如果要刪到底各部會怎麼刪我一直希望趕快算出來那我現在呢看到我們的主計專報說"},{"start":10948.715,"end":10958.314,"text":"法律義務的項目這些呢我們就保留不刪那這樣子總來講是需要刪減大概28%"},{"start":10960.578,"end":10971.61,"text":"那之後呢也很高興我在上個禮拜我也陸陸續續看到各部會有發新聞稿以內政部來講他說他要刪減大約283億那國科會呢他評估他要刪200億"},{"start":10980.697,"end":11001.59,"text":"我最關心的袁明慧他也做了新聞稿那在這邊我要特別來講一下部長你應該還記得我前兩次的質詢我都有特別提這一次的財劃法對袁湘的衝擊我認為比其他部會影響更大"},{"start":11002.657,"end":11028.359,"text":"大家都很清楚過去我們的原鄉可能是因為人數少不具什麼政治影響力我們很難仰賴地方政府多分一些錢給我們我們大部分都是仰賴中央政府這個就好比過去我們在地方政府爹不疼娘不愛我們好歹可以靠我們的爺爺奶奶"},{"start":11029.428,"end":11059.428,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11060.469,"end":11061.271,"text":"算,他是依法律義務"},{"start":11072.944,"end":11087.395,"text":"好,那請問一下那會不會影響到發放?既然是法律義務支出。不會。好,不會。所以呢,原民會的新聞稿可能還要再重新加回去喔。我要講的是只剩一點點,他們的新聞稿寫14.5億欸。"},{"start":11091.852,"end":11106.496,"text":"我們這麼多的計畫原鄉最重視的聯外道路特色道路聚會所的興建那一些脆弱家庭還有那些房屋的修繕部落環境改善等等等幾百項怎麼辦這個怎麼辦"},{"start":11112.717,"end":11128.427,"text":"所以在這裡我要特別特別的我有要請你們說特別是對我們的原鄉對我們原住民族人不論是地方的建設或者是這些福利措施所造成的影響至少我現在還沒看到很清楚的報告"},{"start":11129.227,"end":11155.043,"text":"所以這個部分麻煩主計總處還有財政部協助一下我還是希望看到因為我必須要給我的族人清楚的資訊要不然每天外面錯假資訊的圖卡滿天飛我也看不到政府出來去做正確的回應那我們也不知道要怎麼協助政府做正確的回應所以這個部分的資料我還是要趕快希望這幾天以內趕快寫出來給我"},{"start":11158.246,"end":11178.148,"text":"委員報告一下就是說原住民114年度的預算他有123.8億那扣除依法律義務的部分就是80.8億所以剩下的部分就是必須要3減28%所以我就緊張啊他們的新聞稿試算啊剩沒有多少錢啊"},{"start":11179.309,"end":11184.191,"text":"我之前問財政部的時候我有特別強調我不知道要怎麼刪是各部會平均公平的來刪一定的%數還是怎麼樣我不知道但是我有講"},{"start":11205.561,"end":11233,"text":"原鄉我們長期大家都知道我們是完全依賴過去中央政府的補助這個對我們的衝擊非常的大所以如果你們要統三用一定的比例統三我不能接受因為我對我們原鄉來講影響太大了我不能接受所以呢我站在原住民的立場我是強烈的反對現在這個版本的財劃法對我們影響非常大"},{"start":11234.342,"end":11261.008,"text":"所以我在這邊我想要了解一下我很關心行政院的反制措施那我先請教主計長如果預算是3減28%那你們又說不重編我覺得這個是互為矛盾那還有什麼樣的因應方式原則上是我們必須要比如說透過追加減的方式來做一個調整所以你要用追減預算吧"},{"start":11262.484,"end":11284.961,"text":"對,追檢預算那追檢預算要拖到什麼時候?下會期嗎?因為籌備預算時間是比較長那我們必須每一個部會每一個計畫都去討論它刪減的項目包括它補助地方的一個比率這個部分我們都必須要做檢討那這個部分影響不是一年而是每一年因為這是結構性的刪減所以每一年都要刪減3753億所以這個部分就會對我們影響很大"},{"start":11289.445,"end":11291.347,"text":"我請教一下行政院副秘書長請問行政院會提復議嗎?"},{"start":11306.082,"end":11332.772,"text":"目前我們是還沒有收到財劃法修正的公文那收到後的話我們會在憲政賦予的權利之下然後尋求各種的救濟程序那請問一下你們所謂的救濟措施有哪些目前都在研議當中嘛那包括那個委員剛剛講的復育也是我們的研議方向之一那什麼時候會清楚其實我一再講的就是我們的人民不能夠讓他無所適從"},{"start":11334.853,"end":11360.755,"text":"我覺得政府的責任就是不要讓我們的人民無所適從我覺得態度要很明確所以什麼時候因為我們還沒有收到財劃法的根據那有沒有打算要提暫時處分我們就且戰且走這個部分應該也是演繹中的之一而已那憲法法庭呢也是"},{"start":11361.843,"end":11383.691,"text":"所以憲法法庭你可以等到憲法法庭釋憲的結果啟動的了嗎但是這個我們都是在憲政的程序之下所救的救力程序他原來規定就是這樣子那我請教一下財政部部長行政院有沒有可能再修財劃法下個會期"},{"start":11385.073,"end":11400.93,"text":"跟委員報告財劃法其實我們之前從今年初我們就開始一直努力包含指標的部分我們都一直在努力那現在因為立法院已經三讀通過財劃法的修正案那後續的一個相關的因應措施剛剛"},{"start":11402.595,"end":11427.406,"text":"我們副秘書長講得很清楚在核限的架構之下相關的因應措施都目前在評估當中是的部長我們一直在講事權要一併的來去做調整我其實是很希望說你們財政部如果可以再修財劃法內政部我希望可以一併的來修地質法"},{"start":11430.898,"end":11440.872,"text":"委員對於元宵我們的民眾的一個權益非常的一個重視也多次的提起這樣的一個建議這個我們理解是謝謝有沒有可能那這個因為帝制法屬於內政部的權責"},{"start":11446.206,"end":11464.474,"text":"好我我內政部我會問是那您可以嗎呃如果內政部那邊做調整當然財劃法這邊是一個下階段的部長這次我們原鄉被丟包呢呃我了解因為委員也有提然後趙偉陳玉珍趙偉說下個會期他說可以再提委員有提修正條我知道是謝謝"},{"start":11465.935,"end":11482.72,"text":"我想這個部分可以來考慮但是我聽起來我還是要再講一次站在我原住民的立場我強烈反對現在這個版本的財劃法我覺得對我們影響很大所以這個部分那個行政院覆滅會不附屬嗎因為這個部分的話我們是要在合憲範圍之內去處理的那是我們的其中一個方案嗎"},{"start":11496.812,"end":11500.271,"text":"因為不附屬應該不是我憲政程序裡面的程序之一"},{"start":11501.272,"end":11527.706,"text":"您的態度一直都很模糊啊每一個都是沒有接、沒有收到要不然就是還沒有研議那這樣怎麼辦呢?因為實況是我們真的還沒有收到但是但是但是我還是要跟父命您說站在我原住民的立場我是非常的反對現在這個版本的財劃法對我們原鄉我可以直接講就直接宣告會成為財政孤兒"},{"start":11528.706,"end":11528.986,"text":"謝謝五立法委員"},{"start":11553.717,"end":11554.938,"text":"先請副秘書長交出決定"},{"start":11588.427,"end":11616.562,"text":"委員好我看了行政院這幾天還有特別是主計長你今天提出來你說以後被衝擊而且有可能會減少的八個面向我看了我真的是非常的難過我問問為什麼開始我的質詢是我們都摸著良心摸著良心希望我們的心都還是好的如果"},{"start":11618.191,"end":11645.624,"text":"心壞掉了就變成壞人了就變成壞心的人了今天主計總處提了三檢的八個項目包括說可能會影響到民眾的就醫前線影響到癌症的癌友患病等民眾使用心藥跟護理人員的獎勵還有影響到勞工的勞退基金"},{"start":11648.861,"end":11675.987,"text":"這種錢你砍得下去嗎?主規定你是決定優先順序哪些不當的錢我們如果要把減少錢是不是有腐爛的、浪費的、不當的、有弊案的先砍,對不對?你怎麼會提一個八個面向刀刀砍向的是我們生病的人是勞工?這感覺好心美人?你是好心的主計長還是壞心的主計長?"},{"start":11677.827,"end":11700.325,"text":"主席,你的心還好嗎?沒有壞掉?報告委員,我們整個114年的預算是三兆一那扣除一法律一五就是一兆八那剩下一兆三那一兆三的各項項目如果我們目前還沒有經過檢討原則上是平均減就是各項減百分之二十八"},{"start":11700.905,"end":11703.467,"text":"那是不是哪些項目不檢必須經過討論之後開會討論之後開會討論"},{"start":11713.493,"end":11730.427,"text":"你怎麼去砍生病人的錢、該用的錢、薪料的錢、砍勞工的錢?還講什麼?可能為了連毒品跟打仗,你意思是說錢不夠?你連毒品都不要再查了嗎?打仗都不要了嗎?你這是威脅人民"},{"start":11735.15,"end":11759.94,"text":"如果以國防預算來講,國防預算如果不減那我這樣子我其他就必須相對所有全部提高要到3減37%所以蘇珂婷我都要提起你嘛,我們兩個我在執行,你的回答是你都摸著良心嘛你是要決定哪些不當的、腐爛的、弊案的要刪掉嘛對不對不要去刪到國防"},{"start":11762.935,"end":11775.645,"text":"不要影響人民的安全不要影響人民醫療不要影響人民的這個退休不要影響到打詐、毒品可以嗎我都願意但是問題是刪減這樣就會不夠沒辦法刪減到3753那這個部分我們就沒辦法因應會不夠嗎現在立法院正在審啊可以啊有幾個方法可以解決錢不夠的問題嘛"},{"start":11792.489,"end":11821.599,"text":"你有足夠的錢財政變好了這幾年每一年政府財政都超生啊今年超生多少五億一千萬五千一百億對不對至少中央分的有三千多億啊你可以追加預算這是第一把錢增加了第二個減少不當的嘛我來跟你講什麼叫不當的來我們看一下當要犧牲人民的這個權益的時候還有關聯自己的福利的時候我們來看一下"},{"start":11822.878,"end":11837.861,"text":"有一筆錢叫特別費我看了一下明年度所有關聯的特別費編了超過1億629萬以上這筆錢要做什麼用?供首長招待或者饋贈嘛"},{"start":11851.854,"end":11878.342,"text":"你把人民的醫療把人民的退休錢都砍了為什麼不先回來砍自己人民的醫療退休還是你的福利比較重要這一億是不是就該砍的如果你真的要砍到人民我公開倡議今年我們現在在審的明年度所有的首長的特別費從總統開始特別是總統跟行政院長中通戶"},{"start":11880.051,"end":11899.016,"text":"三八百年特別會．行政院四八五十年特別會．各部會一直到首長的都有特別會．這個你還是做什麼饋贈跟招待．請什麼課．送什麼紅包．人民醫療都被你們砍掉了．這筆錢明年114年全砍．第二個我們再看下一個新聞"},{"start":11906.684,"end":11931.127,"text":"一部發布一個新的任命案中央訓產會的董事長數字會不會去接?主計長你知道他一年的薪水多少?30萬公費30萬年薪600萬你年薪多少?他比你還多欸一個中央訓產會當署定"},{"start":11933.326,"end":11961.396,"text":"緊於開了罷班而且這個是本來是無幾子的耶以前要嘛就是農業部的次長要嘛就是市長會的司長以前人民不用再花一毛錢的名子名高為林聰賢開戲緊於開了罷班這個錢要不要砍?是這邊接了這個新工作這個錢能留著嗎?我更要問從整個結構面來看政府有多少國營事業"},{"start":11962.952,"end":11981.283,"text":"有多少財團法人?多少基金?幾百個啊!不只中央稀產會的這個董事長的錢要砍啊!這些很多弊案的,讓會民主民高的,特別是他本來有什麼績效可以領這麼多錢?主席來,我們做個,我做個倡議"},{"start":11984.79,"end":11986.091,"text":"報告委員 這個國營事業和基金他不在我們3753億裡面喔"},{"start":12001.718,"end":12001.878,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12026.892,"end":12054.333,"text":"而且才符合公平啊憑什麼國營事業董事長什麼系長會董事長比你薪水還高大概是你的三倍對不對你錢也兩百萬而已啊他憑什麼拿六百萬而且不是一個中央系長會有多少國營事業董事長多少基金會的董事長拿的比你還多多了兩三倍前面去檢討另外你要砍人民最近啊"},{"start":12056.394,"end":12077.642,"text":"光是台電的這個錢我砍了火力發電的錢250億你現在把核電廢掉了結果你一直在燒煤燒煤不是民進黨政府的政策嗎以前國民黨政府到民進黨都說燃煤要減少就燃煤還是一直燒還是什麼賣掉電廠這個燃煤電廠還一直買電"},{"start":12082.705,"end":12083.226,"text":"所以要有哪些錢要錢不過的"},{"start":12097.355,"end":12111.504,"text":"要嘛就是你主計總處、行政院你去把剛剛一路講下來的腐爛、不該花的錢的、不當的錢你腐爛你看水電費今年的水電費變80億已經被罵臭頭了每年還編輯了110億、101億還給20億的出來這21億不用砍掉嗎人民會同意你說你要增加這21億嗎這是不是腐爛"},{"start":12121.94,"end":12122.06,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12142.628,"end":12162.567,"text":"所以主席我今天摸著良心問話你也摸著良心回答我你如果是一個有良心的主席請你回去檢討腐爛浪費的、不當的、弊案的包括我剛剛講的如果是你要砍人民的醫療"},{"start":12165.502,"end":12183.91,"text":"請你們先從砍自己開始從總統跟行政院難到各個部會各個國運社董事長開始做起好不好你們自己都沒有砍自己的福利了憑什麼去砍人民的錢人民的健康人民的退休金好不好現在有幾個解決方式"},{"start":12185.032,"end":12207.593,"text":"其實啦你已經說不重編了嘛對不對明年不重編了嘛對不對事實上這個應該財劃法這次的修正應該真正實施也應該是後年吧對不對那你有一年的時間你還要檢討我剛剛講的好不好我們謀著良心我只有要減這三千億第一個要減三千億不成問題我剛剛一路練下來減三千億太容易了我這國會會事務的記者照顧啊"},{"start":12211.24,"end":12236.429,"text":"有多少的預算本來就是檢討以後人民是有掌聲的欸以前總統薪水多少從陳水扁當立法委員我當記者我就開始追這個錢我們以前總統是一個月是84萬欸威權時代我們以前是威權時代是強人所以我們總統薪水很高啊你在陳水扁當總統薪水砍一半欸降到從84降到42以前財政部長一定知道"},{"start":12237.659,"end":12266.012,"text":"以前你們這些所長的薪水有公費跟稅費一半不用繳稅對不對後來不就改了嗎改全部要繳稅啊合理啊國庫至少增加了一億以上啊你去做這些改革嘛你才是一個好心的主計長也是一個有改革的主計長嘛我今天看了老蔣你們不要再講這個各個部會輪流出來該記者會啊主計總是說要砍這八項這八大項每一項都砍在人民身上欸"},{"start":12267.213,"end":12274.265,"text":"好不好請把人民放心上我們希望我們都做一個有良心的人拜託一下拜託一下"},{"start":12296.369,"end":12324.867,"text":"有請行政院副秘書長李副秘書長主計長陳主計長委員好兩位好這個財政部長就不上來了用聽的這個行政院針對財劃法的記者會真的是在場的三位"},{"start":12328.207,"end":12348.017,"text":"當天在場的主計長、財政部長應該要馬上跟行政院發言人說這個是戳錯怎麼會說財劃法修法若公佈施行嚴重衝擊明年總預算要重編怎麼會說這樣的話"},{"start":12351.345,"end":12379.464,"text":"我們就依法入法預算法第46條規定中央政府總預算案以附屬單位預算及其中繼表經行政院會議決定或交由中央主計機關會編由行政院以會計年度開始4個月前提出立法院審議也就是8月底114年度的預算案"},{"start":12381.636,"end":12408.319,"text":"今年的8月底送到立法院已經送來了已經在審查了行政院發言人他不清楚也就罷但是部長、主計長你要馬上告訴他這樣講是不對的何況何況那時候是12月20日"},{"start":12410.302,"end":12431.418,"text":"按照行政流程送到行政院,行政院假設馬上公布施行也是明年的事情啊對不對,也是明年啊怎麼會,也沒說要受及既往啊當然是公布生肖之後啊所以這個用詞都是欺騙人民好"},{"start":12435.778,"end":12462.776,"text":"剛才啊 這個主計長你也剛才有 我認為有失言啊你在答覆這個吳立法委員的時候有提到追檢預算法是81條 我沒有準備條文啊預算法81條不是這樣規定的 對不對法定稅率不足的跟法定稅率無關啊"},{"start":12464.472,"end":12489.353,"text":"所以這個部分也不能追檢跟追檢預算無關所以這個用詞還是要很謹慎副秘書長你都是主計總處出身的主計長也是事務官你們都是事務官部長也是事務官"},{"start":12491.343,"end":12516.908,"text":"對不對,你們提出這個,主計總處提出這個將造成以核定且上在執行中之各項計劃經費難以為繼列了這麼多跟國防、社會福利、醫療服務、勞工、農業、治安、重大工建設、科技產業發展都列這些"},{"start":12520.806,"end":12548.465,"text":"剛才張祺凱委員質詢的很正確啊怎麼會去檢討這個呢?不當支出太多了不當撥補太多了為什麼不去檢討這些呢?所以啊我們都是事務官出身的啦我看了聽了之後真的是很難過"},{"start":12550.745,"end":12566.389,"text":"不要受到政治的影響啊我不相信這是你們三位所認為的這些一定是上面交辦的就是要把這個跟人民實際有關係的寫出來這是錯誤的應該好好檢討作為事務官出身的副秘書長、主計長、財政部長"},{"start":12581.751,"end":12607.429,"text":"要好好地檢討何況按照你們的算法這行政院的加起來就七千多億現在只是三千多億出去而已啊何況省紀部稅計稅入稅出的剩餘還有超徵的稅收就這麼多不先去處理這個"},{"start":12610.297,"end":12635.562,"text":"講一些危言損聽的話真的是不應該啊真的是不應該時間的關係齁何況啊何況第一個賴總統當台南市市長的時候就說強烈的要求要修財政收支方法賴清德總統當行政院院長的時候"},{"start":12637.386,"end":12665.733,"text":"在2017年12月28日的年終記者會他說明年要修正財政收支方法要給地方更多的經費啊所以在總統上任你們應該趕快提出啊從上個會期就開始審查財政委員會就開始審查"},{"start":12667.549,"end":12695.219,"text":"開了很多次的會議包括這個會期開了很多次的會議尤其是主計長你的收視你的入文啊你的入文就是以這個照理你應該有版本的嘛對不對要拿出版本很快啊所以這個部分呢法已經修了立法院三讀通過"},{"start":12698.851,"end":12726.649,"text":"不要再繼續被打臉打臉誰?賴總統所以我要奉勸部長、主計長還有副秘書長要欠卓榮泰院長第一個這個都是我們以前講的啊就不要復議了啦對不對?趕快公佈私刑以上 謝謝"},{"start":12728.804,"end":12730.885,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員。我們休息五分鐘。謝謝。"},{"start":12761.801,"end":12779.346,"text":"就舉1點在座選擇不夠,選擇不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不"},{"start":12788.748,"end":12789.228,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12806.104,"end":12818.715,"text":"那天下大亂不是國營試驗完全沒有影響而且還有採訪完那不是我來幫他採訪的國營試驗那些都不是在供預算我們也沒有過補這不是我們來過補的"},{"start":12832.989,"end":12834.232,"text":"他們檢討不足但這3753沒有影響"},{"start":12839.366,"end":12841.047,"text":"他們那些會減少?他們那些會減少?"},{"start":12870.328,"end":12872.769,"text":"委員長淑姿、行政部莊部長翠雲、行政部莊部長翠雲"},{"start":12899.174,"end":12899.455,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13142.247,"end":13147.331,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 我們開放這個現場用餐齁 中午到了齁好 接著我們請黃珊珊委員好 謝謝主席 我想請財政部主計長以及副秘書長李副秘他可能去那個 沒關係齁 沒關係齁"},{"start":13173.277,"end":13193.801,"text":"委員好兩位部長還有副秘書長今天這個專案報告的題目就叫做行政院表示因財劃法修正114年度總預算須重編這個題目是召委定的還是行政院自己說的"},{"start":13197.658,"end":13200.439,"text":"是行政院發言人說的,對嗎?是,也就是說這個東西叫做是放話還是要嫌?"},{"start":13215.388,"end":13224.46,"text":"沒有放話沒有要挾那他要講這個幹嘛我想在今天的三份報告裡面都很明確所以是騙人的還是嚇人的來副秘書長你回答我是騙人還是嚇人"},{"start":13232.692,"end":13237.193,"text":"是謊話還是要脅?他講完之後的幾天你們行政院有澄清過嗎?有像今天這樣說明過嗎?有嗎?有沒有?今天不來財政委員會這句話還是要脅還是謊話吧?是嗎?"},{"start":13253.609,"end":13257.572,"text":"所以我們的發言人可以衝著這樣子這麼不負責任的說預算要重編請問財劃法哪一條叫你們重編立法院哪一個人叫你們重編從頭到尾沒有這回事"},{"start":13277.383,"end":13290.137,"text":"第二個這個案子在相關今年2月1號本新國會成立之後我們就跟財政部講財劃法我們修訂了而且我們會提案對吧部長版本早就提出來了"},{"start":13292.392,"end":13308.887,"text":"而且要你們在上個會期告訴你們下個會期提出來請你們提版本不提而且民眾黨的版本我們不是不提而是我們認為要進一步再做討論因為指標的部分我們有後續要討論的事你們的版本就是最好的版本你們的版本就是不要再提版本"},{"start":13310.028,"end":13335.993,"text":"這次你們在吵的東西有兩個我們民眾黨的版本很清楚第一個我們非常忠信我們去計算你們的稅收稅率的剩餘大概2000多億不到3000億第二個我們給你們很大的彈性是用分配委員會第三個我們在這次修法修正東西的時候我們講得很清楚條文施行的日期我們給你們一年以後但是民進黨團不支持民眾黨的版本現在在鬼扯"},{"start":13337.308,"end":13362.278,"text":"這些都是我們版本裡面就提出來的我們希望用分配委員會讓財政部繼續保有調節的功能第二個有關施行的日期我們認為一年之後施行可以民眾黨團從頭到尾就非常的理性民進黨團寧可不同民眾黨的版本也要挑釁立法院然後現在在說我要重編施行日期有問題我要重編"},{"start":13364.181,"end":13367.243,"text":"所以部長不要再告訴我們說你們不知道相關的內容了這樣的行為就叫做放話就叫做要挾"},{"start":13383.7,"end":13394.294,"text":"另外主計處你們的報告裡面寫說要刪掉八項八大項的預算28%影響然後要有7000多億請問你現在釋出的是幾千億3000多億不是嗎你為什麼要砍到7000多億"},{"start":13401.192,"end":13426.138,"text":"明明是三千多億的你說要砍七千多億不是放話不是要寫是什麼你現在告訴我受影響我們釋出你們三千多億結果你告訴我你為什麼七千多億受影響哪門值得受影響有一照三裡面三減百分之二十八主計長我問得簡簡單我們釋出三千多億請問你憑什麼說你影響到七千多億你告訴我答案"},{"start":13427.81,"end":13431.475,"text":"這是項目,影響的項目,但是金額呢?金額是3000還是7000?"},{"start":13431.475,"end":13431.856,"text":"這個數學很簡單吧?"},{"start":13431.856,"end":13432.317,"text":"有需要在那邊說謊嗎?"},{"start":13438.117,"end":13462.32,"text":"三千七百五十三然後百分之三減一兆三三減百分之二十八所以你就用比例算所以四出三千多億影響七千多億這是騙小孩子嗎最嚴重的是再講一次我們說地方自治的事項你們一直在說事權請問副秘書長你們現在研究出哪些事權的法條要修正嗎地方自治法"},{"start":13463.821,"end":13482.209,"text":"稅法通則還是相關的法規你們盤點出來了沒?哪些法要修?這個部分目前還在處理中還在處理中所以從頭到尾行政院都沒有因應立法院在財政收支劃分法已經進到委員會進到黨團協商進到院長協商你們從來沒有討論過是嗎?從來沒有討論過你市局要怎麼修是嗎?"},{"start":13489.274,"end":13500.273,"text":"現在才要處理我告訴你這個法我修得很神氣我們一直跟財政部說你說的事權請你說出來請你拿出來我們一起幫你修法"},{"start":13501.923,"end":13518.208,"text":"一整年都不講半句話現在告訴我說我現在在處理第二個這個法裡面很重要一件事情事權為什麼要分清楚因為中央就是拼命的去舉債弄了潛在預算來搶地方政府該做的事"},{"start":13519.69,"end":13544.469,"text":"做什麼事?第一個新建停車場、捷運建設、水環靜置水、觀光建設、公有建築物的耐震改善還有重鋪道路這就是地方該做的事你們寧可把權跟錢都放在中央用一個前瞻建設去舉債來幫地方做地方該做的事不給地方錢該做他本來就該做的事把錢全部搶在中央幹什麼?做什麼?我告訴你答案"},{"start":13546.004,"end":13571.761,"text":"中央來做聖誕老公公啊中央來補助地方的時候都是我給你的啊立法委員就說我去中央爭取了多少預算所以你要全票投給我執政黨啊更嚴重的是有一些補助款直接發給民眾的部分裡面的存摺直接寫行政院發啊行政院發才是重點啊綁裝啊地方政府的財劃法去綁裝真正在綁裝的是中央政府而且綁得很嚴重"},{"start":13573.106,"end":13598.973,"text":"再講一遍該地方做的人不做不給他錢做現在潛在預算就是你們搶著地方的事情來做我們只是把該交給地方的權利交給他該地方做的事情交給他現在變好了我們幫你們把中央的錢搶掉你什麼事都不能做了國光獎金不能發了國防預算不能買了不要鬼扯不要放話不要要挾"},{"start":13601.055,"end":13629.749,"text":"最後一個副秘書長現在接下去行政院在研究哪些事權要修正OK啊那你們在研究復議的理由了嗎還是公投的理由還是事先的理由也在準備還是什麼時候要做因為我們還沒有收到財劃法修正的公文所以目前是內部研議中總統說他們一定總統府說他們一定會公佈按照程序就是要復議復議就是要送立法院復議的理由"},{"start":13630.902,"end":13656.319,"text":"還有公民投票的理由還有憲法訴訟的申請我想都是行政院現在正在做的對吧對第二個我要的是如果你們真的講一直很認真的在講事權請你告訴我也準備好你們正打算修的地方相關的稅法或者是地方制度法哪些文件哪些條文要修的也麻煩請你一併在一個禮拜之內告訴我你們會修哪些可以嗎可以"},{"start":13658.715,"end":13686.39,"text":"更嚴重的是現在的問題是主計長上次有說因為我們怕給地方很多錢所以地方會亂花主計長我們的主計是不是主計一條邊我們是不是所有的地方主計人員都是由中央指派的是請問你們的主計人員在地方政府是死人嗎亂花錢是你的責任還是地方政府的責任"},{"start":13688.294,"end":13716.655,"text":"什麼叫做給錢給地方政府亂花錢那主計處、審計部全部是死人是嗎現在是這樣就是說事前第一個你該分到地方沒有分到地方沒有錯地方主計處就是把關者地方的主計人員就是把關者你怕什麼你們該負的責任現在推給說地方會亂花錢所以我主計處不同意主計長啊你們是中央政府還有地方政府預算的把關者欸"},{"start":13718.206,"end":13729.889,"text":"我們的主計長講出這種話真是笑死天下人更嚴重的是財政部現在我們現在釋出的是3000多億今年超徵多少億"},{"start":13731.089,"end":13744.919,"text":"今年真正的數據要等到12月底過完以後大概5000億吧那是全國全國來說上看是這麼多然後中央也多出了3000多億嘛所以不要再說會影響到中央的正式運作我同意但是我們現在要做的是事權要統一我同意趕快修法"},{"start":13757.728,"end":13775.62,"text":"第二,這個法案通過了,它就是有效的法律,請你們依法行政最重要的是,不要再把該地方做的事情中央搶著去做該給他的事權,就好好地給他事權現在地方為了配合你們的前瞻預算是去取債、炒地皮、賣地來配合你們的自籌款"},{"start":13776.841,"end":13795.064,"text":"這才是問題最嚴重的是你們用計劃性補助款要求地方政府配合中央的財源這不健康 這非常不健康要求地方政府炒地賣地然後配合自籌款才能夠得到你的計劃性補助款這樣的行為很不健康一直都是這樣計劃性補助款就是這樣所以我們希望"},{"start":13804.626,"end":13817.444,"text":"財政收支劃分法分得很清楚我們處理的是中央統籌分配稅一般性補助款讓他合情合理名目相符第二個我們不希望中央在以任何的理由用"},{"start":13818.584,"end":13843.843,"text":"特別預算用錢債預算這種舉債的方式去搶中央去搶地方本來就會做的事然後不要逼著地方去賣地炒地配合你們的自籌款這三件事情最重要就是請副秘書長一個禮拜之內給我你們要修哪些法要怎麼修請告訴我們你們修的狀況跟進度跟接下去你們要做的處置可以嗎副秘書長好要回答麥克風沒有聽到你的聲音"},{"start":13849.887,"end":13874.532,"text":"一個禮拜我希望看到財政部、主計處跟副秘書長你們承諾這句話如果不是騙人、不是要挾、不是放話就清楚地表達你們的態度而不是今天隨便口頭說說行政院發言人蔣王這句話已經很久了沒有人出來說啊如果今天召委沒有排這個報告全國的人民都認為我們要從邊預算喔那我們現在在審預算是白癡嗎"},{"start":13876.291,"end":13896.675,"text":"第2個講出這些話之後今天才有你們來說明這不是很可笑嗎一個中央政府的發言人可以隨便如此隨便的說這麼嚴峻的事情第3個如果真的要提復議就正面來不要在後面放話以上好謝謝黃珊珊委員"},{"start":13913.379,"end":13914.7,"text":"陳玉珍主席李富密主席"},{"start":13929.676,"end":13948.78,"text":"我根據黃山委員剛剛的這個發言就是說我們這個說要修財劃法已經說很久了也請各部會請財主單位提出這個修法的這個就是你們的版本然後也跟你們講所以你們到現在事實上一直在說還有80幾項收斂到剩3項指標沒有啊那這個"},{"start":13953.341,"end":13960.907,"text":"這個行政院,你們是在懷疑,當初我們跟你講說我們這個會期法案一定要通過,你們是在懷疑我們的決心是嗎?懷疑立法院修法的決心嗎?你當然沒在這裡啊,主計長都在這裡嘛。你在這裡說過無數次啊,我說這個會期一定,在我擔任召委的時候,一定會修法通過啦。"},{"start":13974.861,"end":13996.334,"text":"你們為什麼都沒有做任何的就是還在八十幾項收斂到三項啊?效率怎麼這麼低呢?沒有,因為財政部事實上他正在收斂一月之下是啊,但是我們也給了你們這麼久的時間啊六月份到九月份也給在三個月的時間對不對?到現在我們都修好通過你們幾項都還沒有收斂完成啊對啊,如果等你們那個全部收斂完成地老天荒啊"},{"start":13998.41,"end":14026.778,"text":"再來講齁這個還有在那個中間的這個修法過程中也有講說到底哪些事權剛剛黃山委員講我們市長也提過很多次哪一些要修嘛也在這裡內政部也有來那時候來做決議的時候趕快把相關你們覺得應該修的這個什麼事權啊錢啊怎麼應該分啊哪些地方稅責啊什麼地方租產應該修也應該趕快送上來啊到目前也沒有嘛不過剛剛黃委員問過啦我們就一個禮拜內希望你們趕快提出相關的報告嘛我覺得你們根本就不是"},{"start":14027.518,"end":14042.876,"text":"不是沒辦法是你們不想做啦這個大家看得很清楚那114年總預算要重編這個本席牌這個題目這個被林俊炫委員說好像搶著餓太久搶著要吃什麼東西啊這個明明這句話就不是"},{"start":14043.737,"end":14066.605,"text":"本席說的啊是114年度總預算要重編這句話來行政那天是主計長有在旁邊嘛財政部部長有在旁邊嘛這個是行政院說的吧是吧這是誰說的他說財政修法若公安實施一中衝擊明年總預算可能要重編嘛這個是這是誰說的話這句話是誰說的行政院這個我們李富明李富明"},{"start":14068.038,"end":14086.543,"text":"這看起來應該是發言人講的發言人是誰啦我們李慧芝女士啦李慧芝也說 這就她說的吧阿怎麼現在你們又說 發言人說的是不是代表你們行政院咧因為他的原意其實應該不是這樣發言人的原意可以弄到全世界都聽不懂只有他聽得懂"},{"start":14087.645,"end":14113.413,"text":"那這個發言還適格嗎?所有的媒體都寫說標題是要重編然後現在來問的每個立委也都認為當初的意思是要重編所以他的本意不是這樣子你是不是說他迫使不行還是表達人力有問題?因為他前面是講到未明定施行日期會對明年總預算本身是很不公平的他未明定施行日期還沒公佈嘛他連中央法國標準法都不懂喔?他在發言你們都沒有聽他準備搞喔?"},{"start":14114.602,"end":14136.165,"text":"他隨便說喔當然是要有公佈以後當然沒有明天很多法令都是公佈或實施啊這是基本常識啊做一個發言人不懂嗎這個發言人識格嗎還是他企圖誤導社會大眾那這樣要不要下台啊那你們今天還要坐在這裡重新再一個一個主計長再解釋一次財政部長解釋你還要來這邊解釋一次"},{"start":14137.605,"end":14157.736,"text":"他說的這個全國的媒體,全國的媒體也是這樣認為一個發言人可以把一個政府的政策弄到全中華民國的媒體都認為他說要重編然後你現在說他的意思不是這樣子那他也不是口齒不清的話,他就是很不適格啊,這樣不用下台嗎?副秘書長,還是一半米吃西瓜環境"},{"start":14159.465,"end":14184.25,"text":"我們的了解是他對這個表達憂心因為衝擊真的很大3753億是表達憂心嘛表達憂心也不是這樣子發言嘛 對不對對嘛非常不適格啦好來我想請問主計長陳主計長剛剛也很多人提過啦我也拜讀了一下您的這個國立您也是很優秀啊國立成功大學政治經濟學系的碩士你記得你碩士畢業論文的題目嗎"},{"start":14187.254,"end":14189.715,"text":"臺南市政府預算決策之研究以民國9393年預算案為例"},{"start":14202.159,"end":14216.379,"text":"那我看了一下 你在行政院記者會上說 你說你雖然說 你剛剛回答我有聽到 你說時空環境改變但是我們現在說的都是那個時候的事情喔 精神已經是發生的事情了你在 那時候寫錄文的時候精神已經發生了 你在討論這個事情"},{"start":14217.901,"end":14242.09,"text":"好那現在講也是講今省前那個整個預算的這種分配中央地方分配您那時候的說法是今省後中央須承接省府稅客收入等1505億元為一承接相關支出2892億元收支並從考量後中央陸部付出達1387元所以這個沒有因為今省而獲益嘛這個您說的"},{"start":14243.05,"end":14266.2,"text":"然後接著再寫．地方財政普遍困難中．導致臺南市財政惡化之原因出因．緊急低迷稅收途增稅減少．及未配合精神而修正的財政收支劃分法未增完善．致補助款減少．中央統籌分類稅款比例分配不均這每句話都是你寫的吧應該不是抄的吧這是自己寫的吧"},{"start":14267.711,"end":14270.692,"text":"可見現世地方財政瘟疫精神及修改財政收入方法而改善"},{"start":14286.016,"end":14312.421,"text":"經審前政府每年有1500億的地方金額不斷補助地方歷年還要結餘所以經審前地方政府沒有財政制的赤字經審後已經喪失這個條例的機制地方政府的財政資就不斷的累積然後接著又寫說87年經審我們都在講以前的時候87年的時候民國87年的時候政府業務下放地方財源沒有跟著下放所以地方政府補助款沒有增加減少造成地方"},{"start":14312.941,"end":14330.539,"text":"有責無權、業務增加、財源減少所以一說經省事實上有的業務是撥到地方但沒有給他錢都被中央拿走了對不對然後原來有省負擔的警政支柱給縣市負擔造成收支失衡更加嚴重"},{"start":14331.58,"end":14347.778,"text":"這是每句話都是你說的啊你現在就是你現在剛回答你現在在打臉你過去的碩士畢業論文啊那你剛剛跟我剛我聽到你回答別人別的人說你什麼這個時空環境時空變化之術啊就民進黨常說的那個但是精神事情早就發生了啊"},{"start":14348.439,"end":14349.54,"text":"您的現在說是因為這麼多年來因為我們中央一直有地方補助"},{"start":14370.179,"end":14392.264,"text":"如果照原來那個是不夠但是中央一直有給錢或者另外可能是中央地方很努力的賺錢對吧?兩個可能嗎?是因為中央一直給錢嗎?所以是中央努力的給錢嗎?所以因為中央努力補助地方嗎?那我們今天只是把這個補助由原來由你們分配的權利變成直接就給地方嗎?"},{"start":14393.485,"end":14408.221,"text":"這個只是誰在決定錢怎麼用而不要讓今天地方政府還要來求爺爺告奶奶嘛這個爸媽媽的財產本來跟小孩子不用等到說還要來拜託嘛也不是全部給不過多了9%而已嘛您剛才有算一下9%嘛"},{"start":14411.563,"end":14424.366,"text":"也不至於影響到中央的這個支出啦那你看喔剛剛我也聽到您說啦因為剛剛已經好多委員質詢啦說這個事實上是整個的裡頭的除了法定支出以外剩下的整個裡頭的28%嘛對不對這個你有剛剛有在強調嘛對吧"},{"start":14430.268,"end":14438.234,"text":"有沒有 有嘛齁但是你看看齁你看看我們這個全國各地的這個媒體報導各個不會分是說什麼你看衝擊文化部預算73.3億齁這個國防部800億幼教高教900億這個勞保1200億"},{"start":14451.643,"end":14477.185,"text":"還有什麼?國客會200億、退伏會200億、百億、衛福部、什麼身心健康啊什麼什麼。哇!這個加起來真的幾千億啊!跟你說的完全不一樣是今天是這些部會的首長不懂胡說八道還是你跟他們溝通不良啊?你沒有跟他們講是只有影響28%嗎?你有沒有跟各個部會說?"},{"start":14478.697,"end":14487.761,"text":"所以這個部分呢就是說我3兆1扣掉一兆3對一兆3裡面的28%因為一般性賭注的話那個30條修不能第一往前嘛所以那不影響以國防經費它將近3000億嘛那3%就是將近900億要刪減那這個部分就是刪減下來"},{"start":14501.687,"end":14518.123,"text":"要三九百億因為他不含人員維持會國防經費就將近二九四五嘛你知道這些人你知道嗎這些你有沒有看過這些新聞報告你有沒有請你的部署去整理一下這些全部他烏浪浪加起來七八千億喔可能不止喔"},{"start":14519.164,"end":14521.884,"text":"臺灣詐騙集團很多啦不需要政府部門不需要這些部門再去當詐騙集團的首腦啊"},{"start":14549.189,"end":14560.097,"text":"詐騙集團夠多了不要再繼續詐騙人民恐嚇百姓好不好對不對都胡說八道嘛你看你今天說的我們就聽得很清楚了28%嘛不是全部都什麼幾百億幾千億"},{"start":14562.373,"end":14582.888,"text":"還是他們還是還是我建議啦如果有這樣散發這種假訊息的這些部會他們心裡的期待就是希望被減800、900你們就按照這一張他們寫的幫他們算預算嘛這個也是一個方法或者我們來代勞今年預算的時候今年11305我們來幫你負責砍3753億好不好你們不用那麼辛苦我們一定會幫你努力做到好不好主席長好不好好好謝謝好的謝謝"},{"start":14592.065,"end":14602.393,"text":"下一位是劉許廷委員不對還沒有念完 羅志強委員 羅志強委員 羅志強委員好 請羅志強委員不在 請劉許廷委員好 謝謝主席 我們等一下投影片今天這個大家都要做一下投影片"},{"start":14631.771,"end":14651.475,"text":"今天是常務副秘書長喔?那只好請常務副秘書長。你們秘書長去哪裡啦?去內政。他說他去內政。去內政?沒有啊。他跟我請...經濟喔?去經濟喔?好吧。他上次內政也沒來啦。這我們後面再說啦。但你今天來了你就代表他啦,可以吧?可以。應該可以喔?好,謝謝。"},{"start":14653.553,"end":14667.719,"text":"這個當然今天大家都在討論財劃法嘛對不對那我看喔法案修正通過之後這個土卡新聞齊發大家都砍個沒完殺生四起阿12月24號的新聞立法院通過財政收支"},{"start":14668.539,"end":14683.838,"text":"華奔法條文這個發言人李惠芝表示這個修法沒有定生效日期所以馬上要生效預算可能要重新編列順著這樣的一個說法各個部會就如同這個本席這個投影片上所展示的經濟部說喊300億這個國科會說喊200億"},{"start":14687.703,"end":14703.876,"text":"還有一大堆的新聞,有些沒做圖卡的也有很多新聞,這個800億,農業部、交通部、金管會、教育部、文化部、勞動部,通通都用28%這個標準來做射算。這個,副秘書長,這個是行政院下的令嗎?"},{"start":14705.031,"end":14728.315,"text":"要各部會用28%通算並且做統一的媒體發布有沒有下這樣的命令應該是沒有但是有或沒有沒有應該是沒有有還是沒有我的認知應該是沒有我不要你的認知有或沒有嘛你不知道我剛剛講說你剛才說你可以代表秘書長阿現在又應該沒有和你的認知裡沒有到底有沒有阿"},{"start":14730.083,"end":14730.944,"text":"因為這一次的財劃法修正幅度相當大"},{"start":14748.562,"end":14763.964,"text":"總金額是3753億少了少了以後就是各部會的當然這個本期並不反對就是說財劃法的修正必然伴隨著叫做事權的檢討這本來就是大家都清楚的事也沒有人會反對大家花一點時間去溝通輕重緩急排一排去做調整"},{"start":14764.885,"end":14784.587,"text":"這是一定會發生的事情但是你如果只是講說我說我現在中央要擠出3000多億的預算對不對我做的調整大概有幾種方式如果我只是純尊潔對不對我們先不講明明就會超增這個後面再說但是你純尊潔你也不是有一種方法確實如同這些媒體新聞跟你發言人講的就是大家通通砍掉28%"},{"start":14787.529,"end":14807.461,"text":"這是一種方式那另外一種方式是你通盤檢討你各個部會的業務之後有一些金額大的但是不一定有優先性的我可以多砍一點有一些金額比較小的有必要性的該持續要持續好比說國防或什麼他不能動的也是這樣但是你總要有一套完整而清楚的方案有一個完全客觀的討論依據你再來做新聞發布才是正確的對不對"},{"start":14809.344,"end":14819.966,"text":"請回答這個部分目前主計長正在處理所以行政院的立場基本上還在做檢討跟整理的狀態是嗎?"},{"start":14823.23,"end":14840.316,"text":"因為主席長的報告就是寫這樣子的啊主席長的報告是寫這樣嗎?所以從你的認知就你的了解應該就是還在做整理嘛對不對?對好那既然還在做整理的事情為什麼你們可以放任這樣子的圖卡到處流傳?你行政院作為這些部會的頂頭上司你難道沒有約束跟監管的責任嗎?"},{"start":14841.195,"end":14855.062,"text":"因為他們各部會受到的衝擊他必須要表達出來啊各部會受到的衝擊要表達出來這是一個政治上的一個動作啊所以我剛剛第一個問題我問的是這個動作是你的授意嗎還是各部會自行歧視變成通通變自走炮"},{"start":14856.246,"end":14878.816,"text":"先喊出來可能以後不會被砍是這樣嗎應該不是應該表達他自己被受衝擊的程度你今天問題就只有兩個一個是你今天如果是中央授意那我們今天要檢討追究的就是為什麼你在版本方案都還沒有出來之前就可以進行授意進行這樣的處理那你剛剛講說行政院沒有授意各個部會自行歧視"},{"start":14880.882,"end":14894.252,"text":"那關鍵就來啦如果這個是各個部會的各別部會的各別作為你行政院作為領導統一的時候你放任這樣的狀況出現不是很奇怪嗎明明大家都很清楚到底哪些東西要遵截順序是什麼額度是什麼都還沒有確定"},{"start":14895.356,"end":14918.908,"text":"那你行政院作為領導的機關你就放任他們這樣子多頭馬車各行其實這樣是對的嗎有沒有應該檢討改進之處因為那一天23號的記者會的時候財政部長跟主計長已經跟大家報告過了這裡面會受到的衝擊緊接著下一個層級的話就是各部會他自己面臨的衝擊他必須要表達出來所以你基本上就是放任各個部會各自表述就對了"},{"start":14920.169,"end":14928.525,"text":"你覺得這樣子的資訊到處流傳會有什麼負面的影響到最後如果出來的版本跟他們不一樣請問誰負責這是不是就變成所謂的謠言跟假消息"},{"start":14929.671,"end":14957.107,"text":"會不會變這樣應該會吧應該不會吧應該不會吧應該不會所以你的意思是行政院現在就是通令大家就是刪28%是嗎因為他的事因為你的版本都是刪28%財務法經濟部就是他可以支配這個扣掉這些所謂人員你們剛剛都算過很清楚啦得28%就是300億嘛國科會就是200億這些等等他就是這樣算的啊我跟你講你今天如果這個東西已經是確定的我們現在正在進行預算審查我剛剛在內政委員會我問科委會啊"},{"start":14957.927,"end":14975.039,"text":"市委會跟我講說沒有通令我說如果你確定要刪28%我們下午預算的時候我們就開始處理啊這樣你還少辦一個追檢預算的程序嘛還比較有效率他說不行不行不行這客家預算我們當然要希望所有的委員都來支持跟信任那請問我們審預算的時候我們到底是要刪還是不要刪呢"},{"start":14978.377,"end":14993.575,"text":"我必須這樣跟委員報告啦那主計長剛剛講的那個報告裡面講的內容就是我們預算審查的時候分成四個區塊那有一個區塊是不能動的你不要再跟我講公式我們都很清楚我現在只問你是不是全部通令要刪28%是或不是"},{"start":14995.037,"end":15024.637,"text":"那因為一照3000億裡面的時候你必須要減少3700多億你算出來的結論就是每個部會要28%嘛是或不是嘛你現在是不是要求大家都減28%嘛如果等比例刪減的話就是要38%那你現在要不要等比例刪減啊我現在問你是這個問題啊因為你的對外的訊息是你要等比例刪減可是你在這裡答詢的時候你又講不用等比例刪減那到底是要還是不要你這個政府機關在不同的場合講不一樣的話然後政令左搖右擺不是一件好事欸"},{"start":15025.417,"end":15049.195,"text":"因為財劃法修正的影響是3753億那這些確定是要從支柱裡面去處理的啊確定要從支柱裡面處理不一定吧你如果真的我們剛剛有講到超徵對不對如果真的有所謂的超徵你辦追加預算是不是大家通通都問題都解決了財政部的報告很明顯的告訴我們前面十幾年裡面六年超徵了有七年是短徵了啊它不是每年都超徵啊"},{"start":15049.795,"end":15077.005,"text":"我們現在就討論114年就好對不對你需要一點時間來做我只講這是其中的一種方式我們剛剛問你你說如果要用全部尊潔你現在的方案跟版本也沒出來但是到處奇怪的消息到處流竄你本來就有管理不善的責任這我希望行政院趕快把話講清楚既然你今天講大家希望還是要以支持114年總預算為原則這我們立法院我們也覺得通情達理我們也願意尊重大家就好好來做處理但是請問你要用什麼樣的方式"},{"start":15077.685,"end":15088.881,"text":"去避免這樣亂七八糟的謠言繼續產生你有沒有一個明確的做法因為我覺得各部會的時候他受到衝擊的時候他也必須要表達出來"},{"start":15090.305,"end":15116.274,"text":"你如果想說這是行政院通令他要表達那我覺得那是另外一套邏輯我也不是不能接受但你講沒有啊你不能這樣玩兩面手法你現在講說他可以自己表達你現在講可是我沒有這樣的命令我跟你講這樣政府公信力會受影響我最後一個問題不好意思耽誤了一點時間你現在各部會要盤點計劃性補助也許會改變分配比例或什麼各式各樣的方法有哪一些是你檢討的原則哪一些項目是你優先要檢列的對象各縣市檢討的比例會是什麼請問你什麼時候會把這個版本算出來"},{"start":15116.974,"end":15135.863,"text":"我們要看到的是這個東西嘛你如果有然後你再講衝擊大家可以接受縣市政府如果要用新增的統籌分配款來補也有理有據可是你完全沒有就是這種概括性的也不是中央政策的數字到處亂跑我是很懷疑你行政院螺絲掉滿地啦你這些計畫什麼時候可以給大家一個答案"},{"start":15137.566,"end":15165.331,"text":"這個部分那個主計長這邊正在處理正在處理的時間表啊我要問時間表我知道你在處理啊那個可能要讓主計長來處理這樣子讓他來處理這有問跟沒問一樣實在是喔好啦沒關係反正行政院秘書長這個禮拜四還會來內政委員會希望他這個該來的時候要來好不好謝謝啦謝謝好謝謝牛雪婷委員謝謝接著我們請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱不在喔王逸川委員"},{"start":15168.574,"end":15172.015,"text":"鄭正前委員鄭正前、鄭正前、鄭正前不在、院之委員我們請財政部長、主計處長請莊部長陳主計長"},{"start":15198.6,"end":15225.194,"text":"兩位好我們這次通過這個財劃法我看到民進黨包括中央的各部會你們的講話充滿了邏輯的矛盾因為簡單講財劃法就是從中央先地方先跟中央先挖一筆錢然後要給地方嘛現在是3000多億嘛對吧所以在這一點上面很多人就攻擊說哎呀給了3000多億之後呢中央就會沒錢啊什麼不能做什麼不能做什麼不能做什麼不能做這是一種攻擊方法"},{"start":15225.794,"end":15244.046,"text":"另外一種攻擊方法很多民進黨立委是在攻擊說分配不均啊啊為什麼新北比較多啊為什麼誰比較少誰比較多像蘇小惠委員他說新北怎麼可以只拿到300多億啊應該要500多億600多億啊那奇怪那個蘇小惠委員為什麼跟你們講法不一樣啊你們認為只要多花幾億元"},{"start":15245.687,"end":15264.918,"text":"幾億元中央就無法運作了但是民進黨很多委員認為挖的不夠啊因為要更多啊所以我覺得這個都是話術啦都沒有理性認真的討論問題都只是說反正這個財劃法是國民黨要通過的所以我們就亂打一通打到邏輯矛盾也沒關係打到自打的也沒關係只要能夠打國民黨就OK"},{"start":15265.658,"end":15285.264,"text":"但我覺得財劃法這是應該是要就事論事的東西啦財劃法從過去賴清德總統在當台南市長的時候他就認為財劃法要修啊他以前要修就不是迴憲亂政國民黨修就是迴憲亂政如果每一個公共議題的討論都是先扣帽子再講"},{"start":15286.544,"end":15301.029,"text":"所以今天我要非常理性的來跟兩位來討論這個財劃法的問題我想請教一下現在財政部部長你是算出來現在如果我們最新版的財劃法通過應該不是從明年開始試用吧"},{"start":15301.869,"end":15330.931,"text":"是嗎?是從明年開始適用嗎?總預算要重編嗎?總預算要不要重編?跟委員報告,114年我講過這個禮拜已經開始了而114年總預算行政院重編完了目前大院也在審議所以沒有嘛所以沒有,那為什麼之前你們你們官員又要放一個消息說要重編所以今天的主題就是到底要不要重編啊是因為你們先放個假消息說要重編才有今天的委員會啊可不可以不要什麼事都想政治操作啊"},{"start":15331.391,"end":15351.223,"text":"你們想要操作就是說哎呀哇好麻煩喔你看國民黨又在亂了啦國民黨通過財劃法所以害得我們總預算要重編啊重編以後呢很多預算拿不到啦預算今天拿不到什麼拿不到啦國防整個廢掉啦國民黨就亂台灣拜託一下你們政府官員不要時時刻刻想著認知作戰好不好部長你今天就告訴大家不可能重編嘛"},{"start":15352.421,"end":15360.227,"text":"不要再搞這些了,拜託一下,所以第一個,沒有要重編,對吧?沒有要重編,那請你去譴責之前放出消息說要重編的人破壞社會秩序耶!很扯耶!可不可以你們內部約束一下?"},{"start":15373.919,"end":15400.277,"text":"你們是公僕欸,你們是人民納稅人群來做事的怎麼會去擾亂社會,製造恐慌讓台灣亂,唯恐台灣不亂,怎麼會這樣子啊可不可以譴責那個放消息的人?可不可以?我們已經說得很清楚了現在現在很清楚,但之前你現在說得很清楚是因為我們開這個委員會嘛那之前放假消息那個人勒?星期三的時候,上星期三的時候我也有說過啦"},{"start":15402.248,"end":15423.487,"text":"因為你有說過所以不會譴責你嘛我們現在是叫你去譴責那個放假消息的人嘛第二個我想請教一下你們講說呢如果3000多億給了地方之後一堆預算都沒有了啦國防也會受影響老保基金要受影響租金補貼受影響育兒經濟部影響我想請問一下很多社福預算如果是法定支出是不會受影響對不對"},{"start":15424.528,"end":15446.887,"text":"主席長已經說很清楚第一個就是我們在支出的裡面屬於法定義務支出當然是不能去受影響那非法定義務支出對我知道只是我慢慢收斂嘛你不要急第一個就是法定支出的社福不會受影響嘛所以不是所有社福會受影響對不對好第一我慢慢收斂嘛你不用急嘛第二個教育經費會不會受影響"},{"start":15447.995,"end":15448.115,"text":"主計長回答"},{"start":15466.023,"end":15481.434,"text":"教育支出是總額保障所以是用前三年的一個稅率好謝謝你所以教育金會不會受影響然後再來國防預算請問一下我們這次修財劃法其實想要達到一個標準就是精神前跟精神後"},{"start":15482.514,"end":15498.162,"text":"經省前中央是佔總稅收60%地方是40%但是經過經濟發展的影響所以變成中央75%地方25%所以希望能夠本來的版本是希望回到經省前60%40%但後來也修正了變成69%跟31%對吧"},{"start":15504.211,"end":15516.005,"text":"後來是變成69跟31嗎?因為他3753就是9%但是他要一般性補助又維持大概6%那我想問一個問題請問一下經省前國防預算是中央預算支出還是地方支出?"},{"start":15517.202,"end":15535.737,"text":"這是中央支出所以在今審前所有的國防預算都是中央支出那為什麼你只是把原本的地方預算還給地方一部分忽然間國防預算就沒了呢這筆錢從頭到尾都是中央支出啊然後再來第二個國防預算一堆都是特別預算啊"},{"start":15537.735,"end":15557.174,"text":"為什麼要這樣子又要打芒果乾呢?把抗中這個恐懼套用在就事論事的公共議題上面,這個我真的很不能接受欸。國防預算從精神前就是由中央的預算支出,你把原來的地方的預算還給地方,對國防預算本來就不會影響啊,而且國防預算很多都是特別預算。"},{"start":15558.939,"end":15577.424,"text":"第三個我想問一下可能問一下財政部長為什麼我們新北市跟高雄每一次計劃性補助款我們自籌款高雄都是自籌款只要4成我們新北市要6成為什麼計劃性補助款有關自籌款部分是由主計總處按照地方的財政的立案主計長回答一下為什麼"},{"start":15578.89,"end":15598.706,"text":"這個部分我們是有定一個依照財政的財力去劃分啦對好謝謝財力所以你就是懲罰財政機率好的人嘛高雄為什麼自籌款只要付4成因為財政機率不好大量的舉債欠債多新北市財政機率好欠債少所以我們自籌款要6成"},{"start":15599.887,"end":15615.744,"text":"所以每個縣市都這樣搞就好了啊大量的舉債啊但是我們也有獎勵啦也有獎勵一些我想問一下臺南臺南的那個自籌款多少?比例多少?他是第四級啦臺南是多少?第三級多少?"},{"start":15617.168,"end":15632.298,"text":"致酬款是多少?臺南是第三級他會因每個計劃各部會合定的那個比率不一樣並不是統一的大概多少嗎?幾到幾嗎?要看計劃大概28吧72比28差不多幾%到幾%?幾十到幾十?就是每樣的計劃他都不一樣那他有沒有臺南的話他就屬於第三級你知道我為什麼講臺南嗎?"},{"start":15645.936,"end":15670.922,"text":"之前不是討論一個議題嗎就是國民黨本來有要提案但是現在說不及的提案就是老人的健保費65歲以上本來的版本是說只補助20%所得的集聚在20%以下的長輩本來的版本後來說改成5%但後來因為大家有疑慮所以這個沒有說要等到有共識在推你們應該知道這個事吧應該知道這個事吧我那時候老人福利法老人福利法那"},{"start":15676.226,"end":15702.156,"text":"我看到很多民進黨的立委出來亂鬼扯說為什麼我們要補助郭台銘健保費我不知道郭台銘的難道他的所得稅原來是在20%以下原來他都不用繳所得稅這鬼扯蛋但我告訴你哪一個縣市就是20%好不好台南市就是台南市目前台南市的錢他們市政府的錢就有補助所得稅20%級距以下的長輩不用健保費就有"},{"start":15704.966,"end":15728.038,"text":"所以實際上如果說各縣市一樣啊如果按照你們邏輯那我們各縣市就來補助啊我們現在新北市是所得稅5%以下的長輩有受到補助那一樣基本是舉債然後去給那個20%以下的長輩然後財政機率搞得比較差未來去申請計劃性補助的時候哇我們的自籌款就變少了本來六成欸四成欸你覺得這樣公平嗎?主計長你覺得這樣公平嗎?"},{"start":15732.062,"end":15743.049,"text":"議員提出的部分我們會扣款所以那個他還是也被我們扣款被你們扣款?扣補助款那一樣啊那問題是他們之後再計劃性補助補助款就比較低啊"},{"start":15745.185,"end":15767.402,"text":"所以這個財政的東西非常複雜我要講的就是其實這個非常複雜我們現在財劃法只是修統籌分配稅款而已但中央給地方的錢有好幾種有統籌分配稅款、有一般性補助款、有計劃性補助款然後這裡面還有貓膩除了要看表面金額之外你還要看你的自籌款比例多少、中央補助的比例多少"},{"start":15768.323,"end":15785.28,"text":"是要整體來看嘛那現在統統不不不來修之後哇台南高雄跳出來哭說哎呀中北青南外北新北300多我們才多少那你們要不要想想你們一般性補助款拿多少你們計劃性補助款拿多少你們計劃性補助款裡面的自籌款是多少要比不完了啦"},{"start":15786.261,"end":15786.421,"text":"謝謝 非常謝謝葉遠之委員長 謝謝"},{"start":15811.031,"end":15811.451,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請財政部長莊部長"},{"start":15842.292,"end":15864.353,"text":"總部長一整個上午我看到你跟主計長兩個那就一次被在野黨當然也有幾位我們執政黨的立委就多所批評了這一次財政法案法這樣子通過之後那我只能用喔輕痛愁快四個字"},{"start":15866.028,"end":15891.824,"text":"來形容現在這個情況那早知如此你記不記得在3月份因為你是極少數有延續從上一任那延續到這一任的部長所以那時候你也知道當時我們執政黨包括我我們就提出說針對財政收支劃分法"},{"start":15892.85,"end":15920.685,"text":"我們財政部應該提出院版的我們行政院版到底我們認為財政收支應該怎麼樣結果三拖兩不拖的拖到520內閣改組之後你也接任財政部長之後你還是沒有提出從頭到尾 一次到這一次財政收支劃分法被強行通過之後"},{"start":15921.584,"end":15950.545,"text":"也還是沒有對應政策我認為當初我們要說哪一個黨的版本不好哪一個黨的版本是過分啦是限縮了中央總體的國防、外交、重大交通建設的支出這些我們應該我們提出那怎麼樣才是對的結果通通都不"},{"start":15952.011,"end":15968.232,"text":"那現在被在野黨也來扯說那你超徵說現在超徵一年都超徵三四千億那拿了一個三千七百多億光超徵的就夠但是你看了一下從這七年來確實我們有超徵"},{"start":15971.229,"end":15996.811,"text":"除了2020年我們沒有超徵而且還少徵了222億確實其他年度都超徵超徵的金額也都不少三四千億有的甚至達到超徵5200億之多啦這個部分我今天再提出我就是希望說財政部你們回去好好針對為什麼你每年抓的預算數"},{"start":15999.811,"end":16026.273,"text":"實行的那個年份都又超增那當然這是景氣豪政府的政策對我們民間的功勞最大民間有活力民間的進步這些都是事實但是你們竟然都預估不到這一點我倒是很訝異所以我是希望這樣當今之計就是說四個字"},{"start":16029.008,"end":16047.406,"text":"市權下放也就是說拿了多少錢去地方拿了3700多億去那這3700多億相對應的那他就應該擔多少的責任多少的市權就是下放給他比方說長照"},{"start":16050.705,"end":16075.221,"text":"長照本來在執行的時候就都是需要的老弱婦孺身障者他們的長照也好他們的自立生活也好他們的就學就業需要的交通的輔具也好這些本來就是各該縣市地方政府社會局他們去接駕交通局他們去接駕"},{"start":16076.741,"end":16100.299,"text":"我們中央再來撥款給他們那既然是撥了這些去那麼就該這一部分的事權乾脆就移給地方那我們中央不再補助就這些錢大家事事樂樂講清楚也就是說事權下放但是事權下放要有一個前提就是要修法"},{"start":16101.63,"end":16116.563,"text":"所以部長我覺得這一個部分事權下放的修法必須由你來主導跟各部會協商看怎麼用這個部分趕快去做這些完成修法可不可以"},{"start":16118.864,"end":16136.332,"text":"對於委員質詢謝謝委員的質詢第一個就是說財政部對於財政收支劃分法的一個修正其實一直在努力從去年今年初我們收集各地方政府的意見他們指標多大八十幾個那在八十幾個裡面每一個指標的含義內涵我們必須要把它弄清楚才能夠規整那也經過財政部開會以後已經把它"},{"start":16139.893,"end":16158.623,"text":"目前都有共識這個指標部分除了三個指標沒有共識其他的部分已經有共識那接下來就是指標裡面必須要權重的一個賦予一個配置這個權重這個權重裡面每個指標配置的權重就跟我們要達到一個均衡區域發展跟調劑財政營蓄的目的要相符"},{"start":16159.043,"end":16184.893,"text":"第2個部分我們要鼓勵財政的一個努力另外那對於就是說每一個權重裡面每一個指標裡面它還要有更細緻的一個調整系數我講過比如說人口不能只用一個人口的一個數字那人口裡面有結構的不同土地有土地的面積但是土地面積裡面有建築用地跟農業用地它也不相同你應該必須要有更細緻的劃分可以不同的一個系數或加成我想這個部分"},{"start":16187.574,"end":16211.906,"text":"您說的這個都對,這個都跟我們在立法院研議的方向大概都一致但是你手邊就像你剛剛講的啊,你手邊都有各該地區各該地方政府他土地服務員大小比例多少農地多少建地多少工業用地這些你們都很清楚"},{"start":16212.586,"end":16238.295,"text":"所以我認為在修法上你們才能很快速的做出最公正的一些評估當然就是說我們在做這個過程當中這些意見也是地方政府他在我們來開會的時候他們所表達的所以這個部分除了我們收集他的意見之外另外就是我們的權重怎麼樣去配置另外權數的部分他的調整係數要怎麼樣的加成或減成這個都還要大家要有個共識"},{"start":16242.476,"end":16258.506,"text":"拜託我公司沒錯部長時間上都來不及他立法都通過了嘛錢都要撥了所以我認為這樣啦我認為加速加速也就是說再來的開會必須要很有效率也就是說財政部內部你趕快"},{"start":16259.286,"end":16282.654,"text":"把爭點找出來啦把到底地方政府他們講的有哪一些不管有沒有道理那到底他跟我們爭執點還在哪一些重要的點好不好爭點拿出來那大家就針對爭點來回答那麼一些不必要的爭執像剛剛我一路我聽在台黨立委一路罵你們我說實在話"},{"start":16284.417,"end":16300.188,"text":"你們的成績不算很好我是這麼認為但是也不至於到要一路挨罵啦我看了其實蠻難過的好那我知道你的意思啦好那那個部長你就先休息齁謝謝我請主計長部長加油啦加油啦"},{"start":16307.523,"end":16320.26,"text":"委員好主計長年到了你又先報了一個喜訊你說這個24年你還新低我們11月份的失業率降到3.36%"},{"start":16322.583,"end":16350.865,"text":"但是如果去除掉我們農曆年農曆年本來就是因為季節因素那臨時性的工作比較多我隨便舉例像聯絡大街這樣子那如果你把季節性因素去掉以後我們失業率是不降反升的那你看一下這一個表格這是從美國、台灣、南韓、德國、香港這樣做比較下來"},{"start":16351.886,"end":16368.995,"text":"你看看在疫情期間大家都一樣高美國甚至高達5.7香港高達5.1但是你看疫情之後疫情之後不但美國降降到比我們略高"},{"start":16370.399,"end":16389.608,"text":"其他亞洲國家當然啦歐洲德國這個3.0不算其他亞洲國家從韓國香港新加坡到日本都遠比我們低所以啊那個主計長這一點我一直想不懂那麼你有最近你有跟我們我有問你們喔"},{"start":16395.492,"end":16407.619,"text":"我說今年的5月我就問過我說你們要怎麼樣來研究改善結構性的失業今年5月我同樣的問題我就問因為業務緊縮會導致的結構性失業現在11月份因為業務緊縮導致的結構性失業人口高達10萬2000人內"},{"start":16424.008,"end":16444.288,"text":"高達10萬2千人這個就不是你剛剛報的喜訊喔這個算是一個警訊欸一個警訊那當然這裡面齁我覺得最嚴重的是青年的失業率我們青年失業率那個主計長你知道嗎高達11.75%"},{"start":16447.891,"end":16471.743,"text":"那你是說因為青年暫時找不到職場方向那但是主計長我請問你啊剛剛我講的失業率遠比我們低的韓國、香港、新加坡、日本他們國家也會有這個因素啊也會有這個青年暫時找不到職場方向也有這個因素不是嗎"},{"start":16472.583,"end":16496.564,"text":"那你有去規劃啦找不到職場方說我工作地點不理想待遇不符期望我工時長短不適合當然列了這些這些因素其他那幾個國家也都有不是嗎所以我認為主席長你們在失業率的統計查查都過分熱觀還有針對啊我們怎麼樣"},{"start":16501.164,"end":16513.815,"text":"來調整救濟這些結構性失業對結構性失業的房子你們束手無策所以主計長我想聽聽你的看法"},{"start":16514.988,"end":16530.433,"text":"報告委員剛剛講的季節性的一個調整那為什麼我們會比去年還要高是因為去年他是影響比較大季節性的調整比較大今年比較少所以相對的這樣一減下來我們又比去年來增加"},{"start":16532.867,"end":16549.597,"text":"那這個部分就是說季節性調整今年相對比較小那再來就季節性調整如果我們驅除的話現在談到的就是說原則上就是說它是短期的影響我們必須要給它刪除然後來看一個整個結構性的一個事業"},{"start":16550.277,"end":16550.897,"text":"我希望你更積極"},{"start":16578.428,"end":16603.093,"text":"我告訴你這個青年失業率我們已經高達11%了11%是大概包括跟以色列墨西哥這麼偏遠的國家相比他們都才5.2、5.3那跟我們鄰近的韓國他們也只有我們一半他們才5.4而已不是這樣嗎還有有一點你回去再"},{"start":16605.467,"end":16611.778,"text":"這個把這個這個部分研究一下啦是就我們這幾年來政府調高基本薪資調高低薪"},{"start":16613.44,"end":16634.919,"text":"條高這是對但是這這麼多年來的統計比方說這10年來的統計我們的低薪者高薪者高薪者他一樣是高低薪者有條高可是中位數是中位數薪資者這10年來幾乎文文不動沒有任何的條幅"},{"start":16635.66,"end":16651.136,"text":"所以這一個部分當然我們在立院我們很多立委包括我我們都有提出說如何加薪減稅這樣子的案子這些都還沒通過所以我希望說對於薪資中位數者"},{"start":16652.881,"end":16672.418,"text":"主計處你們想想看有什麼樣的方式對中位數者來做提升因為這10年來中位數的薪資所得者他們是聞不動這一點是我提醒你們要去注意的地方我跟委員報告以往我們就是中位數只有年薪"},{"start":16673.018,"end":16695.035,"text":"沒有月薪那我們現在已經改善了所以我們現在已經有中位數的一個薪資有月薪那月薪是我們還往前推到109年度的一個資料所以現在會有中位數的一個月薪出來那中位數的月薪和平均薪資裡面的一個距離我們越來越縮短表示說大家也是"},{"start":16695.955,"end":16699.137,"text":"眾位數的薪資越來越趨近於平均薪資是這樣子"},{"start":16718.4,"end":16744.575,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員今天登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本日會議做如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆請補充資訊請相關部會於週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者重啟約定委員羅明才、羅志強、王一川所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":16745.635,"end":16772.578,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算營業部有關財政部主管臺灣土地銀行股份有限公司財政部印刷廠及臺灣煙酒股份有限公司委員若有相關預算提案請於今天下午5點前競送財政委員會收件本日議程已進行完畢堂友不在堂委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好我們休息"}]}},{"id":"158526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158526","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0b676efc738c6e8814f10c035d50fc64820a17d70bb46c0dc6075f793af8843da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4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一次到這一次財政收支劃分法被強行通過之後"},{"start":103.803,"end":132.755,"text":"也還是沒有對應政策我認為當初我們要說哪一個黨的版本不好哪一個黨的版本是過分啦是限縮了中央總體的國防外交重大交通建設的支出這一些我們應該我們提出那怎麼樣才是對的結果通通都不"},{"start":134.249,"end":150.467,"text":"那現在被在野黨也來扯說那你超徵說現在超徵一年都超徵三四千億那拿了一個三千七百多億光超徵的就夠但是你看了一下從這七年來確實我們有超徵"},{"start":153.464,"end":179.038,"text":"除了2020年我們沒有超徵而且還少徵了222億確實其他年度都超徵超徵的金額也都不少三四千億有的甚至達到超徵五千兩百億之多啦這個部分我今天再提出我就是希望說財政部你們回去好好針對為什麼你每年抓的預算數"},{"start":182.046,"end":208.505,"text":"實行的那個年份都又超增那當然這是景氣豪政府的政策對我們民間的功勞最大民間有活力民間的進步這些都是事實但是你們竟然都預估不到這一點我倒是很訝異所以我是希望這樣當今之計就是說四個字"},{"start":211.24,"end":229.642,"text":"市權下放也就是說拿了多少錢去地方拿了3700多億去那這3700多億相對應的那他就應該擔多少的責任多少的市權就是下放給他比方說長照"},{"start":232.935,"end":257.456,"text":"長照本來在執行的時候就都是需要的老弱婦孺身障者他們的長照也好他們的自立生活也好他們的就學就業需要的交通的輔具也好這些本來就是各該縣市地方政府社會局他們去接駕交通局他們去接駕"},{"start":258.359,"end":282.535,"text":"那我們中央再來撥款給他們那既然是撥了這些去那麼就該這一部分的市權乾脆就移給地方那我們中央不再補助就這些錢大家四四六六講清楚也就是說市權下放但是市權下放要有一個前提就是要修法"},{"start":283.888,"end":298.798,"text":"所以部長我覺得這一個部分事權下放的修法必須由你來主導跟各部會協商看怎麼用這個部分趕快去做一些完成修法可不可以"},{"start":301.084,"end":318.579,"text":"對於委員質詢謝謝委員的質詢第一個就是說財政部對於財政收支劃分法的一個修正其實一直在努力從去年 今年初我們收集各地方政府的意見他們指標多大八十幾個那在八十幾個裡面每一個指標的含義內涵我們必須要把它弄清楚才能夠規整那也經過財政部開會以後已經把它"},{"start":322.142,"end":346.296,"text":"目前都有共識這個指標部分除了三個指標沒有共識其他的部分已經有共識那接下來就是指標裡面必須要權重的一個賦予一個配置好這個權重這個權重裡面每個指標配置的權重就跟我們要達到一個均衡區域發展跟調劑財政營蓄的目的要相符第二個部分我們要鼓勵財政的一個努力另外呢對於就是說每個權重裡面"},{"start":347.677,"end":367.242,"text":"每一個指標裡面它還要有更細緻的一個調整系數我講過比如說人口不能只用一個人口的一個數字那人口裡面有結構的不同土地有土地的面積但是土地面積裡面有建築用地跟農業用地它也不相同你應該必須要有更細緻的劃分可以不同的一個系數或加成我想這個部分跟委員說了"},{"start":371.363,"end":394.141,"text":"這個都跟我們在立法院研議的方向大概都一致但是你手邊就像你剛剛講的你手邊都有各該地區各該地方政府他土地服務員大小比例多少農地多少建地多少工業用地這些你們都很清楚"},{"start":394.821,"end":420.53,"text":"所以我認為在修法上你們才能很快速的做出最公正的一些評估當然就是說我們在做這個過程當中這些意見也是地方政府他在我們來開會的時候他們所表達的所以這個部分除了我們收集他的意見之外另外就是我們的權重怎麼樣去配置另外權數的部分他的調整係數要怎麼樣的加成或減成這個都還要大家要有個共識"},{"start":430.556,"end":448.871,"text":"我認為加速,加速也就是說再來的開會必須要很有效率也就是說財政部內部你趕快把爭點找出來啦把到底地方政府他們講的有哪一些不管有沒有道理"},{"start":449.852,"end":465.314,"text":"到底他跟我們爭執點還在哪一些重要的點好不好爭點拿出來那大家就針對爭點來回答那麼一些不必要的爭執像剛剛我一路我聽在台黨立委一路罵你們我說實在話"},{"start":466.656,"end":466.796,"text":"委員好主計長"},{"start":492.321,"end":517.136,"text":"年到了你又先報了一個喜訊你說這個24年還新低我們11月份的失業率降到3.36%但是如果去除掉我們農曆年農曆年本來就是因為季節因素那臨時性的工作比較多隨便舉例像聯絡大街這樣子"},{"start":519.137,"end":545.72,"text":"如果你把季節性因素去掉以後我們失業率是不降反升那你看一下這個表格這是從美國、台灣、南韓、德國、香港這樣做比較下來你看看在疫情期間大家都一樣高美國甚至高達5.7香港高達5.1但是你看疫情之後"},{"start":546.943,"end":571.622,"text":"疫情之後不但美國降降到比我們略高其他亞洲國家當然啦歐洲、德國這個3.0不算其他亞洲國家從韓國、香港、新加坡到日本都遠比我們低所以啊那個主計長這一點我一直想不懂那麼你有"},{"start":574.793,"end":576.144,"text":"最近你要跟我們我有問你們吼"},{"start":577.728,"end":592.115,"text":"我說今年的5月我就問過我說你們要怎麼樣來研究改善結構性的失業今年5月我同樣的問題我就問因為業務緊縮會導致的結構性失業現在11月份因為業務緊縮導致的結構性失業人口高達10萬2000人內"},{"start":606.241,"end":626.521,"text":"高達10萬2千人這個就不是你剛剛報的喜訊喔這個算是一個警訊欸一個警訊那當然這裡面齁我覺得最嚴重的是青年的失業率我們青年失業率那個主計長你知道嗎高達11.75%"},{"start":630.124,"end":653.978,"text":"那你是說因為青年暫時找不到職場方向那但是主計長我請問你啊剛剛我講的失業率遠比我們低的韓國、香港、新加坡、日本他們國家也會有這個因素啊也會有這個青年暫時找不到職場方向也有這個因素不是嗎"},{"start":654.818,"end":678.793,"text":"那你有去規劃啦找不到職場方說我工作地點不理想待遇不符期望我工時長短不適合當然列了這些這些因素其他那幾個國家也都有不是嗎所以我認為主席長你們在失業率的統計查查都過分樂觀還有針對啊我們怎麼樣來"},{"start":683.029,"end":684.451,"text":"所以主計長我想聽聽你的看法"},{"start":697.223,"end":712.668,"text":"報告委員剛剛講的季節性的一個調整那為什麼我們會比去年還要高是因為去年他是影響比較大季節性的調整比較大今年比較少所以相對的這樣一減下來我們又比去年來增加"},{"start":715.103,"end":731.833,"text":"那這個部分就是說季節性調整今年相對比較小那再來就季節性調整如果我們驅除的話現在談到的就是說原則上就是說它是短期的影響我們必須要給它刪除然後來看一個整個結構性的一個事業"},{"start":732.533,"end":733.693,"text":"我希望你更激進"},{"start":760.659,"end":785.331,"text":"我告訴你這個青年失業率我們已經高達11%了11%是大概包括跟以色列墨西哥這麼偏遠的國家相比他們都才5.2、5.3那跟我們鄰近的韓國他們也只有我們一半他們才5.4而已不是這樣嗎還有有一點你回去再"},{"start":787.001,"end":787.843,"text":"委員長王世堅"},{"start":795.671,"end":817.156,"text":"調高這是對但是這麼多年來的統計比方說這10年來的統計我們的低薪者高薪者高薪者他一樣是高低薪者有調高可是中位數是中位數薪資者這10年來幾乎文文不動沒有任何的調幅"},{"start":817.896,"end":833.351,"text":"所以這一個部分當然我們在立院我們很多立委包括我我們都有提出說如何加薪減稅這樣子的案子這些都還沒通過所以我希望說對於薪資中位數者"},{"start":835.114,"end":854.659,"text":"主計處你們想想看有什麼樣的方式對中位數者來做提升因為這10年來中位數的薪資所得者他們是聞不動這一點是我提醒你們要去注意的地方我跟委員報告以往我們就是中位數只有年薪"},{"start":855.259,"end":882.421,"text":"沒有月薪那我們現在已經改善了所以我們現在已經有中位數的一個薪資有月薪那月薪是我們還往前推到109年度的一個資料所以現在會有中位數的一個月薪出來那中位數的月薪和平均薪資裡面的一個距離我們越來越縮短表示說大家也是中位數的薪資越來越趨近於平均薪資是這樣沒有月薪的同時啦"},{"start":882.941,"end":884.203,"text":"好,那你把這資料給我我以為你遺忘了中衛新知者,你忘了這一..."}]}},{"id":"16431","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16431","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db4f168390ff16a01002ea0e8b14a04e9022ed645e3f9bcfe6fdd1b6c093b495a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送公平交易委員會委員提名名單，李鎂續任委員並為主任委員、陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員、洪財隆續任委員，林慶堂為委員，請同意案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-30T08:31:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-30T14:30:00+08:00","duration":21526,"影片長度":"05:58:46","委員發言時間":"08:31:14 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896.105,"text":"好 謝謝行政院公民署長的報告接下來我們請公平會委員．提名人．主任委員．李美里氏說明"},{"start":1905.573,"end":1929.256,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安。我能夠以公平會委員以及主任委員被提名人的身份來參加今天的聯席會,感到很榮幸,同時也感到責任重大。以下我簡單針對我個人的學經歷以及相關的背景資料來跟各位做簡單的說明以供各位參考,同時也敬請指教。"},{"start":1930.197,"end":1957.416,"text":"我現職是公平交易委員會的主任委員中興大學法律系及法律研究所畢業我在民國79年考上公務員高考86年考上律師考試因為我熱愛公務員的工作所以我沒有離開公職去當律師我曾經擔任立法委員的助理所以我深深了解為民服務的重要性跟必要性"},{"start":1959.117,"end":1976.624,"text":"我考上公職以後主要的工作是在政府部門從事法制工作以及服務業發展的工作我在經濟部智慧財產局服務了15年在當時剛好遇到我國要加入世界貿易組織"},{"start":1977.244,"end":2002.534,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":2003.089,"end":2028.469,"text":"我也在經濟部商業司擔任十幾年的工作主要是副司長跟司長在我副司長跟司長任內我所負責的公司法修正不計其數負責的條文數以百條我所做過的公司法解釋函令數以百計在這樣的一個環境下我對於整個臺灣的公司治理企業的競爭等等都有相當的了解"},{"start":2029.85,"end":2030.03,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2059.931,"end":2061.945,"text":"大餅節南台灣的"},{"start":2063.307,"end":2085.394,"text":"臺菜宴、大餅等等都是在我司長任內負責那我也推廣臺灣廚師節推動臺灣的美食品牌在緊急的時候也能夠迅速的研擬對策面對挑戰在疫情的時候我負責口罩的分發、三倍券的分發振興經濟、薪資補貼都能夠在很緊急的情況下順利完成"},{"start":2090.558,"end":2119.679,"text":"因為我瞭解我們業者的需求我也跟業者常常有互動所以被認為是非常接地氣的師長四年前我很榮幸被行政院提名擔任公平交易委員會的主任委員的工作那也謝謝立法院的支持讓我得以擔任主委那在主委的任內我沒有忘記對自己的期許在我任內我也積極的推動"},{"start":2121.3,"end":2136.657,"text":"促進臺灣公平競爭交易的環境那我主要分幾個來跟各位說明在執法方面我們嚴格執法對違法的行為都積極查處譬如說電信業者、一般混凝土業者等等"},{"start":2139.588,"end":2140.709,"text":"在對外的形象方面,我向來主張"},{"start":2162.449,"end":2166.571,"text":"在建權法制方面我們這四年來積極修正各種法令規章包括我們修正聯合檢舉獎金辦法市場界定原則不實廣告"},{"start":2187.401,"end":2194.75,"text":"關鍵字廣告、網路廣告等等的處理原則同時也修正多層次傳銷保護設置管理辦法讓這個行業能夠新力跟房幣並重"},{"start":2200.885,"end":2222.554,"text":"另外我也要求我們的施政要透明化、電子化所以我們完成各種電子設備能夠讓事業在結合的申報案件進度的查詢或是事前的諮詢都有更明確的掌握另外我們為了應應數位經濟的發展"},{"start":2225.134,"end":2249.025,"text":"也強化了執法的效能同時也為了讓各界能夠了解數位經濟下可能產生的競爭環境的挑戰所以我們在兩年前發布數位經濟競爭政策白皮書這個白皮書獲得各界的響應在國際上也得到很高的評價那同時呢我們也建立智庫、科技執法、行動辦公室暖硬體設備"},{"start":2251.047,"end":2265.647,"text":"購買相關的經濟分析模組套件從事各種研究以因應數位經濟時代的挑戰在國際事務方面我也非常重視我們積極參與各種國際合作跟交流從來不會缺席"},{"start":2266.107,"end":2289.779,"text":"同時也簽署雙邊的協定我個人甚至親自拜會美國司法部反托拉索加拿大競爭局OECD各種演講同時積極爭取舉辦國際研討會我想未來我仍然會如果能夠獲得連任我仍然會朝重視國家政策發展強化品質輔導多層次傳銷事業發展等等繼續為"},{"start":2294.602,"end":2294.642,"text":"李美"},{"start":2319.994,"end":2345.357,"text":"我希望如果能夠獲得連任臺灣的競爭環境能夠像我的名字一樣有金有美大賺美金謝謝謝謝李美女士以及是我們主委被提名的人主委我們大家都認識你大家都認識你"},{"start":2348.842,"end":2371.527,"text":"來,這個謝謝行政院公平交易委員及李鎂被提名的說明。現在我們進行詢答。詢答,委員詢答先做一下宣告。每位委員發言時間聯席會議委員10分鐘,非聯席會議委員3分鐘。今日上校審查會均於上午10點,即時發言生計。在請陳廷輝第一位委員發言之前,我來再宣告一下,為了讓會議能夠生計進行,"},{"start":2374.473,"end":2390.14,"text":"本席已經一向都希望說每位委員發言時間的公平性能夠確保以及不要影響到下一位委員的發言權益所以我很重視在每位委員諮詢時間結束之後我會立即請諮詢委員協助、配合、親自諮詢請各位委員能夠配合好現在4分鐘4minute不是10minute"},{"start":2403.155,"end":2428.213,"text":"首先第一位請陳庭明委員發言謝謝主席我們請李美主委請李美備庭名人主委"},{"start":2430.182,"end":2459.215,"text":"你會覺得你當了這段時間的主委你覺得你有做到位嗎我努力做到位努力做到位那你真的有做到位嗎努力做到位跟真的有做到位跟大家認為你有做到位這不一樣喔這不一樣喔公平會在我們的預算審查當中大家有很多意見"},{"start":2461.397,"end":2482.538,"text":"在我們從過去Uber Eats跟Fupenda的事件好,你們解了一顆炸彈你們解了一顆炸彈你們拒絕沒有接受可是我相信公平會不是只有一件Uber Eats跟Fupenda未來會有更多"},{"start":2484.312,"end":2512.207,"text":"但是我們的態度呢這一次是因為你們趕緊在要審查之前然後通過然後發布這個審查所謂合併案不通過的這樣的一個結果可是如果未來你們這四位都通過了通過之後還有好幾年的任用期我們是不是也可以看到你們對於"},{"start":2513.735,"end":2513.755,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":2533.937,"end":2534.478,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2553.294,"end":2574.048,"text":"那請問那民眾用心用力去搜了這些證據有什麼用沒用啊到你們手上還是完全不予處理因為他無實證我再說我一直很強調而且非常要求在多層次傳銷"},{"start":2577.073,"end":2595.901,"text":"這種詐騙這麼多我們是不是可以把我們的報備制改為許可制也就是我們的公平會做直接有要求有力道的這樣的一個審查可是你們是拒絕的你們是拒絕的主委從你們拒絕到現在請問多城市傳銷"},{"start":2603.646,"end":2617.604,"text":"案子有減少嗎?詐騙的案子有減少嗎?是越來越多耶是越來越多耶那怎麼辦?你認為你們有做到管控嗎?沒有啊案子越來越多"},{"start":2623.001,"end":2641.251,"text":"主委你們怎麼處理我想跟委員說明採許可制跟查處不合法的多層次傳銷行為我認為它是兩件事情也就是說不管它是許可制或者是這是你們為了要推卸自己的責任你們要推卸自己的責任所講的你們要推卸自己的責任所講的報備跟許可它的強度不一樣"},{"start":2650.213,"end":2661.6,"text":"他的約束不一樣他可以管共的也不一樣怎麼會跟詐騙然後後續這些所出現民眾被受騙的會有不一樣這絕對有相關性是你們為了不讓自己有這麼麻煩的權責你們不願意把武器拿在手上所以你才會這麼說"},{"start":2678.621,"end":2682.654,"text":"所以我對於你多層次傳銷這種處理態度我是非常不滿極度不滿"},{"start":2688.339,"end":2713.755,"text":"你剛才說報備制跟許可制這個跟後續的多層次傳銷的詐騙無關我們依據的查處的法律是一樣的所以不管是不是許可制或是報備制我們應該去研究一下你在源頭的加強管理密度就不一樣了你在源頭加強的管理密度就不一樣了你怎麼能夠讓這些消小他們想要去詐騙的人"},{"start":2719.104,"end":2719.284,"text":"有請秘書長"},{"start":2747.947,"end":2748.607,"text":"秦國秘書長秦國秘書長秦國秘書長秦國秘書長秦國秘書長秦國秘書長"},{"start":2776.309,"end":2780.212,"text":"公平會在多層次傳銷這件事情應該改為經濟部來主管因為公平會的執掌打開來看白紙黑字寫得很清楚他是一個仲裁單位他有什麼樣的武器"},{"start":2801.912,"end":2806.319,"text":"有什麼樣的政策、預算可以輔導一個要去經濟發展的產業"},{"start":2810.891,"end":2838.252,"text":"所以公平會他其實是很他應該格局很大各個行業涉及這個不公平競爭涉及壟斷就是公平會來處理啊你看一個金管會兩個銀行要合併要來知會一下會一下公平會一個Uber交通部跟Fupenda這麼大的一個案子交通部還要會他行不行啊"},{"start":2839.278,"end":2859.594,"text":"你看他這樣子的一個是一個仲裁單位今天把一個多層次傳銷放在公平會我不曉得他一個經濟發展的工具在哪裡他只會更加弱化也就是剛才陳廷輝政委講的只會造就我們的多層次傳銷當中的詐騙這個一個層出不斷的發生"},{"start":2866.185,"end":2888.083,"text":"那我不曉得我再講一個經濟部好了光是一個最傳統的經濟的手段講的評估產銷人發財一個經濟部這麼大的部會他有多少的預算跟人事是公平會的幾倍他就為了發展產業他的預算他的部門產業產銷人發財產品"},{"start":2891.374,"end":2895.219,"text":"發展相關的策略人才產銷人發財財務他都還有一個中小企業處裡面還有一個信保基金啊"},{"start":2908.188,"end":2936.473,"text":"你看到下面的法人多多啊去做政府的左右手去輔導產業一個公平會他怎麼可能去對一個產業多層次傳銷一個幾百億在國內有幾百億有二三十萬人口的從業人員去做管理他很執著公平會很執著那因為他已經曉到齁在整個經濟整個行政院當中沒有他的聲音所以他最大"},{"start":2937.651,"end":2953.097,"text":"最大的部分反而會受你行政院的督導你現在國防部怎麼樣、教育部怎麼樣、經濟部怎麼樣你所有的政策一定要跟你行政院對接他曉到這個根本就是無形、空氣、沒人的差別所以他很大他聽不見我們這些資深的立委我們這些資深立委都是為本土"},{"start":2965.594,"end":2993.68,"text":"優質的這個多層次傳銷在發言我們不是對那種國外的多層次傳銷的公司在台灣只不過是一個經理人在發聲公平會完全是站在整個外商的立場對於本土一針一血一人一物都是來自台灣的企業人才的培訓然後他們都到國外去發展"},{"start":2994.75,"end":3008.55,"text":"像這樣的一個產業生態我想這個今天秘書長來我一定要讓你清楚第二個除了部門組織之外第二個你覺得公平會做一個仲裁監理的單位他可以像經濟部一樣嗎"},{"start":3010.513,"end":3022.659,"text":"我們的公務人員是可以要很密切的跟業界結合我們哪一個司長、哪一個署長現任的署長、司長對於現在產業的所有的工協會不認識的"},{"start":3028.646,"end":3035.59,"text":"你告訴我如果說哪一個工協會不認識而且還常常會徵詢他們的意見我們現在要簽這個相關的國外的這個區域經濟的契約你們產業是怎麼樣你們有沒有什麼困難一個COVID-19下去趕快打電話你們有需要什麼服務平常一個漲價物料的漲價經濟部就趕快的下去你們需要什麼資源"},{"start":3055.922,"end":3068.009,"text":"而不像公平會說一個帳價我趕快查一下哪一個是哪一個是這個哪一個在囤貨齊貨可居光是一個帳價兩個單位的屬性都不一樣所以秘書長在這邊本席是主張在多層次傳銷你要不要重新啟動讓它回歸讓它給經濟部的這個商業司去處理您做個回應吧"},{"start":3087.466,"end":3105.896,"text":"評估當然可以再重新再評估看看那當然就是說業務上的調整這個當然是行政院可以有一些想法不過如果以目前來講業務歸屬在公平會的話因為公平會是獨立機關它的內部怎麼樣做決定我們就比較"},{"start":3108.018,"end":3124.174,"text":"但是他沒有辦法做決定啊還有秘書長你知道他弱化到什麼程度所有打開行政院所有的委員會只有公平會主委說我這個委員制我什麼都不能做決定我尊重委員您做過國發會主委"},{"start":3125.526,"end":3139.613,"text":"我們光是一個小到不行的超委會主委那個講話的氣勢啊面對所有台商講話的氣勢啊農業部現在在農委會你看一下我們的農委會我們的主委"},{"start":3140.863,"end":3165.956,"text":"副主委講的話只有公平會主委說我們這件事情我們交給委員會處理委員會怎麼決定他弱化到這種程度你覺得他你剛才講的我們這個產業給他管會有什麼未來嗎現在的這些的績效全部都是本土產業自己打下了天下我們哪有臉說那個是我們的政績啊只有公平會自己會在這個簡報上說哇這個是我們的多人事專家多麼的好我就覺得汗顏啊"},{"start":3169.918,"end":3184.758,"text":"哪一點你有去輔導過人家你不要找人家不要這邊給人家騷擾就好了一個活動你知道管制到什麼程度我一個行銷我第一季做的行銷到第二季的行銷我要改變行銷的方式我要跟他報備你覺得這個產業會發展嗎"},{"start":3188.137,"end":3214.775,"text":"秘書長您直接給我回憶一些時間的關心您要不要啟動重新審慎的啟動行銷那你不要聽他們的你真的有一個真的在經濟發展當中能夠有主導的一個第三方單位來主導你如果聽他們的還是一樣啊因為他小到不行啊他無力到不行啊他無形隱形到不行啊他幾乎都可以消失在你把它撤掉你覺得你行政院有什麼影響"},{"start":3215.956,"end":3215.976,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3233.219,"end":3248.471,"text":"小到不行的小委會我們都覺得他的重要性公平會給他撤掉你都不會覺得他重要他只在辦什麼他在辦學術研討不好意思謝主席您回應一下您要不要重新啟動什麼時候開始要交出這個評估報告直接你講我都無所謂你講黃金十年我也接受"},{"start":3254.549,"end":3269.839,"text":"還是讓我召開一個跨部會的協調會﹖看看大家的意見跟想法好﹖好﹖謝謝﹖什麼樣的想法我們再跟委員回報好﹖謝謝秘書長﹖謝謝﹖謝謝林泰華委員下一位張家俊﹖張家俊﹖張家俊不在下一位委員請鄭正前委員"},{"start":3279.689,"end":3302.169,"text":"謝謝主席我想請教一下那個李美貝提名人因為其實您也是現任的那個公平會的主委所以算是一個續任的狀態所以有些基本的部分我們可能就先把它跳過去那因為那天那個公平市長就是陪同你來做各黨團拜會的時候你們當天其實也剛好處理掉了大家之前在經濟委員會非常關心的一個"},{"start":3302.709,"end":3320.107,"text":"副本大跟Uber Eats的合併案那我想請教雖然說那天來的時候其實你們也很具體提到一個就是說目前公民會沒有沒有批准他們的一個這樣子的一個申請那我想問一下就是說如果說一心想要把副本大台灣這邊賣掉他的母公司"},{"start":3320.607,"end":3340.684,"text":"就是Delivery Hero他如果說採取退出市場的方式有一個默契他退出市場的方式那我們公平會這邊會不會有其他的一個後續的因應的方式這是一個可能性一另外可能性二的部分就是說如果Uber Eats他成立一個第三間的一個外送平台的方式去併購掉Full Panda"},{"start":3341.244,"end":3341.404,"text":"李美貝提名"},{"start":3366.643,"end":3387.951,"text":"謝謝委員 第一個問題就是說 如果Hupenda退出市場那Uber Eats在台灣繼續經營 我們還是要看它的市場力量如果它的市場力量很大 大到可能濫用市場地位 這個在公平交易法還有其他的限制競爭甚至連這個獨佔的行為的一些規範的機制 所以現行法還是可以去"},{"start":3388.371,"end":3388.691,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":3417.521,"end":3445.617,"text":"結合的審查原則來處理因為事實上針對數位經濟競爭的問題是公平會有看到然後也有打算要處理可是我們看到目前對於整個數位市場競爭的一個問題就是公平會這邊做的失誤不是很夠那因為您是現任的主委要爭取連任所以我這邊也特別提到說目前你怎麼看待台灣數位平台高度市場"},{"start":3446.397,"end":3446.537,"text":"OK喔"},{"start":3471.405,"end":3493.164,"text":"目前的法律可以規範可是我們看到似乎不太夠因為數位壟斷所造成的一個效果比傳統的市場經濟當中的一個實體經濟當中的一個壟斷的效果更為明顯我們看到美國、日本、歐盟基本上以Google為例子的時候他們都曾經對Google進行壟斷的一個調查台灣這邊有沒有這樣的一個動作"},{"start":3496.627,"end":3501.029,"text":"我想跟委員回報就是說數位經濟發展的結果有大型的數位平台這是事實那我們現行的法規其實是我認為是夠用的但是我們對於數位經濟平台所產生的問題在執法的作為上在"},{"start":3523.456,"end":3528.378,"text":"指法方面的精進度有需要配合數位市場競爭的專法"},{"start":3540.755,"end":3560.27,"text":"我們基本上現行的公平交易法就是在處理市場競爭它並沒有在數位這個環境的情況下排除在外因為情況不太一樣因為尤其像AI的蓬勃之後的時候對於數位壟斷的情況一定會更為嚴峻所以對於台灣要如何去因應這樣的一個問題我剛剛以Google這個例子來舉例的時候"},{"start":3563.473,"end":3564.373,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3591.688,"end":3596.145,"text":"那針對公平會跟消保處這邊你覺得適不適合把它併在一起"},{"start":3598.267,"end":3622.898,"text":"謝謝委員公平交易法的立法目的也包括消費者保護所以具體個案如果又有消費者保護又有違反到不公平競爭基本上我們都會處理其實目前很多消費者對這兩個沒有辦法分辨得很清楚所以對於公平會跟消保處這邊是不是應該要把它給合併在一起我覺得也是一個在整個行政組織當中可以去思考的一個問題那針對一個數位"},{"start":3625.419,"end":3625.579,"text":"市場經濟專法"},{"start":3651.805,"end":3676.164,"text":"實驗生有限,我直接請鞏秘書長跟李美貝提名人我先問一下鞏秘書長,第一個我先關心一下,這個大寧浦千尊其實拖了很長的時間,從9年前大概林秘書長去道歉那5年前蘇貞昌院長已經來核定,那可不可以請院裡面加快列管這樣的一個速度"},{"start":3677.062,"end":3681.305,"text":"主委、秘書長,事實上這個計畫院已經核定了,所以包括地方政府,也請院長跟秘書長這邊也密切的關心這個案子,協助部長間去加速這樣的一個推動"},{"start":3695.276,"end":3700.079,"text":"我自己的理解是這樣消保處是針對消費者本身的保護如果在面對廠商跟消費者之間有糾紛的時候是站在消費者保護的立場來講"},{"start":3724.929,"end":3744.44,"text":"公平會比較是廠商之廠商之間的公平競爭的問題在市場上當然在考量上消費者受到保護是其中的一環但是最主要還是在競爭上其實事業各國也面對這個問題的時候因為公平會如果只抓在這個的話其實我認為局限會小了一些啦其實我之前跟李美竺也談過他也並不反對"},{"start":3745.02,"end":3773.689,"text":"那我覺得可以考慮看看由院的高度去整合讓各單位發揮更強大的功能要不然我很多時候往比這歸公平外 各區要保持兩邊互相之間各自有權責想做也好像又不太方便又互相卡住我認為其實把整併依照世界各個其他國家把整併在一起會發揮更強大的功能對企業、對企業間、對消費者間都可以有各自有一些處理的方式那我認為會更強大那也讓更多的同仁有更強的能量來處理這件事情好不好議長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":3774.709,"end":3790.159,"text":"謝謝委員的建議我們再回去好不好再演繹看看朝這個方向世界各國很多都已經把這兩個整併在一起了好不好好謝謝民主黨接下來請李美麗主委李北庭委員這次我好像還是要先肯定這個Uber Eats跟Foodpanda這件事情其實處理了"},{"start":3791.639,"end":3792.96,"text":"主委有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":3810.109,"end":3832.385,"text":"我想謝謝委員禁止結合之後這兩家事業還在市場上競爭在競爭的過程中都要符合我們現行公平交易法的規範我希望未來李主委如果續任的話能夠持續的重視這個問題這會侵犯到消費者的權益會影響到外送人的權益國人高度關注我也希望你們持續用最高的標準在盯著不要讓他們"},{"start":3833.306,"end":3833.486,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3849.119,"end":3863.929,"text":"在我想請教一下其實現在社群裡面充斥很多的一些短影音、廣告它其實是真的廣告但是用推薦的方式這個部分其實我覺得也要重視因為現在很多年輕人都在做短影音像這四個啦每一個都是廣告"},{"start":3864.389,"end":3866.45,"text":"網路上的市場更加的公開透明讓消費者不要被誤導了"},{"start":3890.757,"end":3916.486,"text":"主委這個未來會朝這個方向來做嗎?是的,我們也針對這個網路廣告去修的網路廣告的處理原則不管是見證者或者是網紅部落客如果有不實廣告的情形也是受規範而且我們也有處罰的案例好,我們希望未來有這個會持續加強因為短影音跟這個圖卡都是已經現在的趨勢民進很多都受到這個影響我們希望未來包括李美、貝提米人甚至是未來李竺蔚能夠更加重視這個問題好不好?是的好,謝謝"},{"start":3921.291,"end":3921.532,"text":"下一位諮詢請張祺凱"},{"start":3953.781,"end":3976.608,"text":"主委還在台上請公秘書長一起請公秘書長跟李美貝提名閉鎖定趙委員好今天三個黨團到行政院去協商包括公糧收購那天你也在場你知道後來農業部"},{"start":3979.417,"end":3988.321,"text":"把這個公糧收購我們本來要求每公斤調高5塊錢那調高了多少?背後的方案我自己還沒有看到只有1.81欸"},{"start":3991.801,"end":4013.85,"text":"那一天你有沒有在現場?行政院長跟副院長都答應我們的事情啊第一個有沒有私訊你立法院?這樣是不是農業部欺騙了農民?農業部當初是講說他會讓農民的所得會比原來更好那天我們在國庭就是情情徹徹包括國平東京民眾黨都要求要達到這個組結議的內容"},{"start":4017.686,"end":4035.179,"text":"你回去跟議員講一下現在包括民眾黨跟國民黨都已經決定農業部的業務費大概會砍掉七成以上特別會是全砍還有很多重要的只要不影響到農民的這個農業部預算都過不了而且"},{"start":4037.079,"end":4063.94,"text":"很多各個部位不當的預算、不讓的預算我們都非常嚴格的監督因為行政院騙了立法委員也欺騙了農民你另外一個重點啊你說現在因為財政措施發文發料行政院說什麼?114年度的總預算已經上到禮拜年你們說要重編喔?沒有要重編沒有重編?那進行這項公文為什麼行政院有這個消息?"},{"start":4064.813,"end":4077.361,"text":"那只是發言人他的講述說這個因為這個財務法通過以後可能對我們籌編上會有一些困難所以確定沒有要籌編嗎有確定這是一個那第二個那你說的這個財務法實施以後這個衝擊你們要怎麼解決"},{"start":4080.45,"end":4106.265,"text":"因為我們還有一段時間嘛,如果啦,假設是後年才實施嘛,就是等於是後年的預算明年開始對阿,它有一點的緩衝嘛,所以不會影響到議事嘛對不對對,我們會利用3月份到8月份之前我特別提醒,所以第一個,確定沒有要重編這個事情第二個,明年齁,我看你們現在主計處各個部會都出來挨供什麼一些重要的項目要重來,我看得非常傷心"},{"start":4107.466,"end":4132.278,"text":"因為你們現在提的都是那個最重要的就醫療裡面講到什麼重病的病患還有什麼心療那一些那都是人命關天的事情耶勞保的這個錢耶你要砍的應該砍那些不當的對不對浪費的啊有弊案的啊怎麼去砍那些跟人民罪有關的對不對好不好這個回去如果明年明年明年要再編的時候先從不當的、腐爛的、弊案好不好好那我趕快問一下這個"},{"start":4134.517,"end":4143.567,"text":"大家很關心副編導這個事情齁我問你一個很重要的點進行啊你們說搞不好都要再延60天延到明年的3月21號對不對"},{"start":4145.287,"end":4166.084,"text":"那後來為什麼這麼快馬上就做了決定這裡面轉折是什麼我跟委員說明我們對於結核案件當言則言當決則決因為當事人最後能夠到公平會陳述意見這是必要的正當程序他能夠來公平會陳述意見的時間是12月17號我們的法定應該做審決的時間是19號只有兩天當言則言所以我們必須要言"},{"start":4174.13,"end":4174.53,"text":"委員會聽過這些陳述的內容我們開委員會"},{"start":4191.587,"end":4216.865,"text":"這個事業對各界的回應等等都有做說明那經過我們委員會開會討論覺得這個案子限制競爭的利益這個疑慮還是很大所以委員間意見相當共識相當高那當決則決我來問一個都城市傳銷的這個事情主委你知道這個愛妮雅吧是很多新聞都出現這個特別很多年輕人學生老是這個"},{"start":4219.052,"end":4245.95,"text":"被他們拉進去,我看你們上次有裁判過在2020年1﹗有,我們裁判最高法定的這個法環最高嘛,那可是這個事情一直現在進行式啊所以你是處罰完以後就沒事了?媒體動不動幾天一兩個禮拜就有說學生受害欸如果繼續有這樣不當行銷的行為,我們當然要繼續查處另外要請問一下,你知道雞蛋吹,現在過剩價格跌得很慘對不對?"},{"start":4247.401,"end":4247.801,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4260.622,"end":4282.548,"text":"如果第一個彈架有特別法在處理如果這個依託特別法的規定而有聯合壟斷的情形公平法也是有處理你有去查嗎?有沒有?為什麼?我們跟農業部都有這個互相緊密的聯繫所以有去查了嗎?我們有去了解有去查所以目前沒有啊目前沒有為什麼彈那麼多這彈籠的價格那麼它賣出去這麼低啊我們在這買買這麼貴啊沒有查出任何的壟斷或者不當的這個行為"},{"start":4289.195,"end":4296.68,"text":"我們跟農委會都有這個緊密的合作目前看起來並沒有這個結合起來聯合壟斷的情形那怎麼辦?怎麼解決這個問題?我們這樣買這麼貴,又賺不到錢再去查一下好不好?特別是看沒有壟斷好謝謝請回座社會請李議員"},{"start":4326.633,"end":4355.02,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請李美貝提名人請李美貝提名人是 四位你雖然說是貝提名人但是你是屬於是尋求連任的那在這次的四位裡面的話大概三位都是要尋求連任只有一位在競爭處也當過處長你都應該是熟悉了我們公平會的這個業務所以我們希望你們未來能夠公平會可以盡量做到符合社會的這個期待"},{"start":4355.6,"end":4383.021,"text":"那如何要去符合社會的期待那你有什麼對提升執法的一個效能呢?謝謝委員我們主要的業務一個是執法一個是國際合作一個是讓台灣的競爭環境更為公平那在從我四年前擔任主委之後我對於整個台灣經濟環境的發展非常重視所以我們對於尤其是數位經濟發展下可能面臨的問題"},{"start":4384.002,"end":4384.062,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4404.617,"end":4430.903,"text":"但是我們看到這個富邦大他的德國這個母公司是屬於虧損的所以他現在也毅然決然就決定要退出這個臺灣市長那這樣子的話烏柏易的話就變成自然獨占那自然獨占的話這個競爭上就有失公平那請問被提名人那個林美主委那你如何去避免那萬一這個烏柏易有妨害我們公平競爭的這個行為呢"},{"start":4432.643,"end":4452.418,"text":"我想跟委員說明一個事業在市場上的市佔率很高甚至是獨佔的情況下這是事業經營的結果公平法對於獨佔這件事情不是當然違法而是要看在獨佔的市場力下有沒有濫用市場力"},{"start":4453.561,"end":4454.442,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4474.053,"end":4474.473,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4497.259,"end":4522.694,"text":"未來如果有任何的這個結合的情形我們當然要受...如果符合這個合併條...合併條件的話我們會受理那目前將來的Uber Eats也好Furbana也好任何事業他在從事競爭行為的時候一定要符合我們的規範當然要符合所以說現在的公平交易法是要與時俱進必須要修法去年你也說要修法那現在修了沒有進度在哪裡我們針對"},{"start":4524.943,"end":4545.767,"text":"白皮書我們發布的白皮書的內容有盤點一些短期長期要做的一些作為那修法是一個比較要仔細的工作我們有提出草案但是要跟社會各界來評估這樣的草案是否適當我們有提出草案"},{"start":4546.287,"end":4575.499,"text":"所以我們希望說我們要了解到現在的市場上我們要公平競爭那有現在這個寡戰這個獨佔這個問題發生的時候你們必須就要排除這個問題我們現在的公平交易法裡面有很多不適用的方法我們就必須要改變方式才能夠保障到整個市場的營運你說對不對謝謝委員當然法律要與時俱進不過現行的公平交易法對於獨佔寡戰聯合其實都已經有完整的規定"},{"start":4576.604,"end":4594.193,"text":"所以我們要讓我們的市場競爭的次序一定要維護下來那你的公平交易法的話盡快送上來好不好我們會評估是謝謝林議員時間掌握非常非常精準感謝來請回座謝謝楊瓊英委員謝謝謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請備題名人請林美備題名人"},{"start":4608.105,"end":4635.475,"text":"這一次呢民眾跟本席一樣看到您在25日呢公平會做出了福偏大以及UberEats禁止合併的這個決議那麼大家都鬆了一口氣那這個呢公平會的決議重點大致上是說併購具有顯著限制競爭疑慮餐廳消費等交易相對人欠缺了抗衡平台的力量"},{"start":4636.135,"end":4636.275,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4658.677,"end":4658.697,"text":"請說說名"},{"start":4683.216,"end":4699.926,"text":"謝謝委員這個案子是11月8號文件齊備處於可以審查的狀態我們討論過了很多次法定要決定的時間如果沒有延的話本席非常的清楚所以要請教在這個過程當中5月說要併購11月份你還在請他們補資料所以在這個情況之下本席要請教當然現在答案揭曉了也就是在這個過程當中"},{"start":4711.733,"end":4741.093,"text":"公平會的歸宿還是業者來拖延那業者在這個當中有沒有採取行動或者是任何的意見沒有歸宿也沒有拖延我們完全按資料的齊備程度那因為這麼大的案子一定要讓當事人有陳述意見的機會我們在11月8號在這個過程業者有沒有對公平會的處置有意見或者有行動在12月7號當業者來陳述意見當然有很完整的說明"},{"start":4742.193,"end":4753.919,"text":"業者有完整的說明他們的意見對本案的看法對各界疑慮的看法這是在12月17號業者來陳述意見有做說明業者陳述意見所以本期還是要強調從5月份到12月"},{"start":4757.42,"end":4764.203,"text":"那因為民眾非常的關切這個議題因為它影響到電子行影響到消費者影響到我們外送人員的一個權利所以本席也跟你討論過了很多次本席希望針對於民生重大影響的這個議案應該還要更謹慎尤其是在時效上面一定要掌控好"},{"start":4781.411,"end":4796.319,"text":"好 所以本席要請教在簡歷當中你提到公平會是要接地氣孤立而獨立而不孤立所以本席也要提醒就剛才本席所說的像這樣重大"},{"start":4796.519,"end":4798.079,"text":"我認同那也容許我說明一下為什麼我沒有這個17號當事人陳述意見這件事情其實我們很早就"},{"start":4821.966,"end":4844.186,"text":"主委你既然認同本席要請教也希望謹慎之也就是在整個公平會處理外送平台的這個案子以專業產業發展跟權益保障的角度來做考量所以本席要請教你未來會支持外送員產業相關的專法嗎"},{"start":4848.709,"end":4858.154,"text":"當然,橫向的勞動部都已經有提出所以本席也希望你要支持這個外送員的產業專法然後讓我們整個台灣的這一塊平台能夠真正的穩定落實"},{"start":4871.82,"end":4873.401,"text":"下一位請我們最資深的陳超明委員"},{"start":4900.009,"end":4905.436,"text":"陳昌明委員．最資深的陳昌明委員．請上來"},{"start":4913.913,"end":4926.979,"text":"主席好主席有一點抗議這麼重要的人事啊你只給我們每一個人4分鐘你很會安排時間4分鐘所以這個要改進你應該給大家問出問題才重點好不好那第一個問題我請教我們林美職委"},{"start":4936.721,"end":4954.908,"text":"你擔任了我們公平組的交易委員會主委大概有4年的時間來參與那你就任的時候提示了行進程序要更透明要加強對外溝通要掌握數位經濟的發展那你覺得這幾年你做的怎麼樣這幾年我...沒有這次我評問一下因為我們有常常執行到你"},{"start":4961.914,"end":4970.184,"text":"是,我積極在注意我當時上任時對自己的期許,在因應數位經濟時代方面,我們發布...我的分數..."},{"start":4981.932,"end":5010.867,"text":"我是覺得擦牆的意義還可以啦好不好謝謝然後我始終一個存在的問題就是這個穩定物價小組公平交易委員委員算很重要但是我常常想到這個問題是公西的問題在國外好像沒有穩定物價小組只有通膨的問題那現在如果一般的農民在颱風天或是乾旱時期那個作物做"},{"start":5012.011,"end":5027.325,"text":"就整個Pace 5的時候物價上漲的時候你們就去查我覺得現在要壟斷這個物價的時候很少除了大宗物資才有可能一般的這些其實不要管得那麼多啦"},{"start":5028.326,"end":5050.42,"text":"像雞蛋的時候我就覺得很奇怪有時候多有時候少這有歷史因素我感覺這個物價穩定小子在民生問題裡面要好好考慮一些工廠就能囤齁老百姓、農民給他抓了一點你們就說他是在囤積齁那個農產品還是各種物品啊觀念稍微改一下"},{"start":5051.58,"end":5079.353,"text":"我不曉得我們現在國務會主委現在當行政院民事長在物價穩定上有關於農產品添災的問題各方面問題其實不要去調整這個是做生意大家的一個法則我不是在推壓生意人工的農民生在那個時間都要賺一塊錢也合理的好像東西欠錢鴻海鴻海在打仗那鴻海一豁起來實力就上漲了這個道理是一樣的我們觀念要改變"},{"start":5080.233,"end":5095.66,"text":"好不好保護農民這個地方供應商要如何去處理這個問題絕對要加強到時候物價上漲你們剛剛從上天查到地下都要去查查了出來都沒有結果擾亂民心"},{"start":5098.066,"end":5109.818,"text":"那再來我常常問你一個高通的問題那高通問題的決定不是在你決定你是說是算貨那高通的7億美金到現在為止"},{"start":5111.363,"end":5135.811,"text":"我看不出來台灣把他罰款的7億美金等於是公安院的210億到250億之間一年的預算那給到高通的這些錢對台灣到底有什麼貢獻看不出來我只要你拜託跟經濟部你上任了以後你通過了以後做一張表給我看高通要發展5億"},{"start":5137.452,"end":5163.064,"text":"5G它的貢獻在哪裡?臺灣的廠商有沒有能夠得到它研發的一個結果?這個一定要做出來。第二個,它的交易訓練在哪裡?其實這裡面真的把臺灣的系統都搞亂了。它去挖台積電人、挖聯發科的人、挖到臺灣呱呱叫,我們還洋洋得意,這一點你又沒有辦法做到。"},{"start":5164.943,"end":5190.793,"text":"謝謝委員,高通的和解方案都是...沒有沒有,你把它結論下來,我要看真的看出來,看你們如何寫那我問科技界沒有人曉得啊我們寫一份這個整個和解方案的執行情形跟報告給委員你報告出來喔,要寫好喔,不是寫得模模糊糊啊,講他那個我要了解多少廠,台灣的多少廠商收益請你一個工研院的預算給他再用"},{"start":5192.033,"end":5220.579,"text":"臺灣的廠商沒有任何得到任何他研發的成果跟我們自己贏得的是一個效益戰不然以我如果是當初我決定我絕對給公園院加倍起來我們自己研發嘛我們國人能得到享受我們的利益嘛研發的一個效果跟利益嘛啊你有高通,他幫你控制到人家還跟你載了一筆啊你們大家這些人要做事另外當然那個"},{"start":5222.193,"end":5222.213,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":5227.511,"end":5252.983,"text":"這個現在你沒有通過,大家很認同。但是我會說,先你人幾個中,不然我就出他的股權。不然我用虱目基金來,我們行政院、國民司長、國務法會的時候,他就在推動虱目基金,所以這先你的風化警戒啊,不要台灣人也不要高興啊。他這個外國的大公司在做結合的時候,我看你也控制不了。"},{"start":5254.183,"end":5282.138,"text":"會像高通一樣這個注意一下如果他用私募基金或是私下把他股權買到51、52一個公司兩套人馬暗中暈中出來你要如何去應付這是你要面對的問題現在沒有結合但是我各種手段能做結合趙偉你不是腳麻痺嗎怎麼那麼快站起來好啦謝謝"},{"start":5289.213,"end":5299.86,"text":"謝謝陳昌明掌握時間非常好因為本席當任主席所以本席的咨詢改成順便下一位請黃國昌"},{"start":5314.089,"end":5337.617,"text":"被提名的你好只有4分鐘的時間我希望你珍惜這4分鐘我為什麼說希望你珍惜這4分鐘因為您的答案會實質的影響在這一次同意選行事我們的投票決定所以這個主要是請教你立場跟基本態度的問題4分鐘的時間不會對你進行太實質的質詢第一個問題"},{"start":5343.208,"end":5366.344,"text":"公平會維護市場交易秩序我相信是最重要的事情對於不當廉潔禁止原則公平會應不應該遵守?請不當廉潔禁止原則是應該要遵守?是應該要遵守嗎?好來2022年7月公平會通過全聯併大論法"},{"start":5368.366,"end":5394.813,"text":"這是一個引發社會高度爭議的併購案因為它會深刻的衝擊消費者的權益當初4比3三位委員提出不同意見書三位委員提出不同意見書我相信三位委員所提出的不同意見書主委你應該都拜讀過了那這個對於整個市場的交易秩序跟消費者權益衝擊如此大的"},{"start":5396.38,"end":5425.052,"text":"的併購案他所造成後續的影響我必須要說與波蕩漾我看了這個結合的書裡面是不是有個委員要求提出大論法三年內每年捐3億當贖罪券是哪個委員提出的要求我們有委員這樣的是哪個委員"},{"start":5426.428,"end":5447.703,"text":"我想這個內部會議所做成的這個討論的過程我不適合來說明沒有因為我怕我怕誤殺誤估啦所以我給你機會澄清啦是你提這樣的要求嗎?不是是副主委提這樣的要求嗎?不是那是哪一位委員提這樣的要求?"},{"start":5448.602,"end":5470.49,"text":"我想這個在委員會討論的這個主委你認同不認同每一位委員4比3的比數每一位委員要為自己的投票行為負責任主委你認不認同我想每一位委員為投票的結果最後就是公平會的意見公平會的處分應該受社會大眾的檢視沒有錯"},{"start":5476.342,"end":5504.543,"text":"當場有一位委員要求全聯加碼捐贈1億元來推廣體育跟棋藝活動他才要投贊成票這是我接到的檢舉這個檢舉的內容屬不屬實有這樣的情形但是我們也有徵詢結合當事人是否同意在他同意的情況下他併購成功利益這麼大每年捐個3億元九牛一毛啊"},{"start":5505.802,"end":5520.534,"text":"九牛一毛啊在審議的過程跟業者開口每一年多捐一億來贊助什麼來贊助體育跟棋藝的活動這有沒有違反不當連結禁止原則請教主委現在我問的是法學的問題啊在併購案的審議過程當中當場開口跟業者要一億需要拿來贊助"},{"start":5536.326,"end":5547.898,"text":"這有沒有違反不當連結禁止的原則現在喔這個不是你有沒有幫那個委員講話的問題喔是你作為主委在你的法學專業上公平會這樣做適合嗎"},{"start":5551.345,"end":5575.173,"text":"我給你機會請主委再記得這件事喔我現在再給你機會喔適合還是不適合我想跟委員說明喔最終是針對結合案是否禁止來討論那這個捐款的部分我們也有請結合事業那當然會答應嘛那再同意作為一個附加的如果是葉澤民他不答應"},{"start":5576.173,"end":5577.995,"text":"主委,我已經給你時間了主席也站起來我尊重其他委員的時間謝謝"},{"start":5619.783,"end":5633.648,"text":"謝謝主席那一樣請我們主委主委這個在12月25號你送了一個聖誕大禮就是否決掉這個Uber Eats跟Panda的合併案那其實我們也關心了這個議題很久的時間"},{"start":5634.568,"end":5635.188,"text":"實踐一下就可以說到那麼短"},{"start":5661.286,"end":5662.127,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5679.365,"end":5695.778,"text":"為了閉門我們在這個委員會討論的時候會需要再一些補充所以當言則言我們言了那這個言就是60天的工作天就是到3月不等於我們要把它到3月才什麼最常是在言60個工作天啦那因為你們當初這樣講的時候在野黨還是還認為說你們是不是用這個審查來綁這個今天這個公平會主委的這個還有委員的這個審查權啊還背了這個黑鍋啊但是我當時不適合說17號當事人會來陳述意見"},{"start":5708.407,"end":5735.949,"text":"是一個很個別的案情那當事人陳述意見之後我們開委員會討論委員會的共識度相當高當決則決所以我們做出所以對於這一個兩個合併案禁止他們合併案其實你們委員的的共識就相當高就對了你們有幾個委員參與這個這個評議啊我們有7位委員7位然後最後7位都有這個共識嗎我們有經過充分的討論有經過充分討論所以最後7位就是共識決就是禁止合併嗎"},{"start":5737.88,"end":5751.894,"text":"我們有不同意見嗎?當然委員有不同的意見,但是都是希望讓這個審查的你最後有投票嗎?還是就構思決?一定要投票的那最後票數是幾比幾?"},{"start":5753.115,"end":5779.235,"text":"我們有6位委員是贊成另外一位委員也不是全然反對只是覺得說這個審議的內容我們分析的論述希望能夠更完整那這個他們會不會再打這個行政訴訟的救濟這個要看當事人自己的這個判斷那你們這個出來之後20號出來之後他們有跟你們講什麼嗎"},{"start":5780.353,"end":5803.291,"text":"我們發布新聞稿之後我在媒體上有看到他們的說明基本上本案收到決定書之後事業如何去回應我們的決定書我想這是事業自己會去判斷所以你們就只有看到他們的新聞稿就對了他也沒有再找你們再說什麼就對了"},{"start":5806.099,"end":5823.497,"text":"那請問一下那有沒有可能就是說那個Fu Panda他們最後會退出如果因為這樣合併失敗退出台灣市場然後造成另外一種形式的壟斷因為他是不是退出市場這個是企業自己這個這個事業內部的一個考量那如果他退出市場或不退出市場對我是說如果退出市場"},{"start":5824.378,"end":5850.993,"text":"那是不是會形成另外一個壟斷 有沒有可能那畢竟Uber Eats在臺灣就會變成很大那我們公民法對於這個有相當市佔力市長力很大的事業都有一個法律機制可以來他們兩家最後到底齁這一個這個佔了這個我們這個所有的這個外送平台是大概幾成啊你們最後的兩個加起來我們用我們的這個參與外送平台的市佔力去"},{"start":5851.949,"end":5864.335,"text":"去評估有兩個加起來有超過九成好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝昆城協會鍾嘉斌張嘉斌張嘉斌不在葉元智請葉元智"},{"start":5877.447,"end":5903.769,"text":"主委請教一下我記得我上一次在這邊諮詢你的時候那時候也有問Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的問題感覺上好像那時候已經漏口風了就覺得說不會讓這兩家合併因為當時就是你講的我那時候說要把那個唐鳳的點心麵平台算進來你說如果把它算進來的話那分母又變大了那個兩家合併的市佔率相對來說被稀釋我的感覺好像你那時候就已經"},{"start":5904.79,"end":5921.788,"text":"已經預設說不會讓它合併那我想請教一下當時你的考慮其實已經就已經決定不會讓他們合併了嘛對不對因為當時委員會還沒有審查不能先講對不對不能先講但是實際上你個人的立場是覺得不要讓它合併嘛原因是什麼"},{"start":5924.09,"end":5944.691,"text":"我想在全世界第一大並第二大造成一個獨佔的情況都是非常慎重的非常慎重都是非常慎重那現在有一個問題因為Uber E跟Fupenda他們Uber E的母公司在海外實際上已經併購Fupenda這事你知道嗎?"},{"start":5945.786,"end":5972.509,"text":"在臺灣有一些這個臺灣有一些控制的情形我瞭解你知道嗎 知道齁那現在假設啦Uber Eats的母公司後來在臺灣沒辦法併購Foodpanda最後他們決定Foodpanda退出臺灣市場然後再由Uber Eats去把原本Foodpanda的市場把它吃下來那這會不會也一樣就是造成市場壟斷的狀況這個公平會有沒有掌握或者是因應之道"},{"start":5973.407,"end":5998.262,"text":"我想如果副本塔推出市場這個餐飲外送平台市場的發展會怎麼樣是要進一步觀察那假設因此而Uber Eats的市場力很大甚至到獨佔的地位我們現行公平交易法對於獨佔的這個不可以有的行為還有對其他限制競爭濫用市場力的行為都有規範我們同樣會密切的關注"},{"start":5999.6,"end":6011.485,"text":"這樣的發展密切關注對現在就是我是覺得要超前部署啦因為這個是一個可見的未來嘛非常有可能嘛對因為副部長現在就是感覺要退出台灣市場的決心還蠻強的啦"},{"start":6014.011,"end":6031.204,"text":"所以不是說這一關你把它卡掉之後好像後續我們就靜觀其變我只是覺得應該要事先掌握而且上一次我給你建議啊你未來要審查類似案子的時候應該要要求外送平台要做好一些偏鄉的服務啦因為有時候偏鄉根本都叫不到"},{"start":6031.764,"end":6048.739,"text":"所以他們市場過於集中嘛然後另外我再問一個也是另外一個併購案你們的態度是什麼?就是日本汽車現在尼桑、Honda跟Miss Beach已經在談判和平了那我們公平會現在有沒有掌握到他們的和平案?未來可能對台灣的汽車市場的影響有沒有?"},{"start":6049.179,"end":6076.213,"text":"這部分我們有看到相關的新聞那是不是符合臺灣的結合的門檻如果符合結合門檻會到公平會來申請我們會去注意門檻是怎麼樣我會看這個結合當事人的市佔率銷售金額做整個綜合的我知道我是說原則上是怎樣你不要講原則啦我是說就這個個案你們有沒有掌握這個個案我了解我這個案子了解這個案子是要及早因應啊是好謝謝好謝謝來"},{"start":6083.427,"end":6104.063,"text":"登記發言委員出部在場之外,其餘均發言人並為我們訓導結束。現在請李美貝提名人先請先離席。好,謝謝。好,我們休息五分鐘。接著下一場是陳志民貝提名人的再訓導。"},{"start":6110.316,"end":6110.816,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6140.657,"end":6165.299,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":6178.772,"end":6179.392,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6198.356,"end":6199.537,"text":"副主任委員"},{"start":6234.358,"end":6235.278,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":6264.516,"end":6280.994,"text":"有一次,有一次不然你去參議院講,那我先問你這件事。我是認為他是那個十月天分的代理。"},{"start":6286.139,"end":6286.659,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6321.912,"end":6343.279,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6349.602,"end":6354.366,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6375.867,"end":6376.727,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6411.84,"end":6427.305,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會第二場是針對公平交易委員會被提名陳志民先生的這個審查首先請行政院秘書長和民心秘書長先做說明"},{"start":6433.984,"end":6462.443,"text":"謝謝主席,我們行政院提名下一任的這個有關公平會的副主任委員由陳志民也是現在的副主任委員來擔任那我想陳志民副主任委員他的專長是在也是在法律面尤其是針對公平交易法、經濟法還有管制政策跟法規、智慧財產權跟競爭法還有英美法、法律分析等等法律經濟分析等等"},{"start":6463.684,"end":6489.18,"text":"他也承認過這個淡江大學公共行政系的專任的助理教授、副教授還有中研大學財經法律學系的專任副教授教授而且兼任財經法學系的系主任也專任教授、教授兼法學院院長以及系主任還有行政院的公平委員會的委員一些等等的職務我想"},{"start":6490.44,"end":6508.611,"text":"陳志民副主任委員．他的專業知識或實務經驗．學養都很豐富．那敬請貴院支持以上報告謝謝國民心秘書長說明接下來請公民會委員被提名．並為副主任委員．陳志民先生請做說明"},{"start":6516.716,"end":6542.563,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生、大家早安今天很高興也很榮幸有這個機會來這邊參與這個聯席審查會議那我個人在公平會服務之前我是來自學界剛剛秘書長已經有介紹過那我的背景是法律我是台大法律系畢業那後來在美國西北大學拿到法學博士那我專攻的領域就是所謂的反托拉斯法還有就是我們的公平教育法還有法律的經濟分析"},{"start":6543.323,"end":6559.443,"text":"那我人生兩段的公職經驗都是在公平會在2007到2010年我是公平會第6屆的委員那2021年或行政院提名回公平會擔任副主委一直到現在那在我擔任這次擔任副主委的這段期間"},{"start":6560.904,"end":6578.728,"text":"我個人對公平會做出了一些我覺得還蠻實質的貢獻當然我個人也成長學習很多就個案的審查部分幾乎會內面多數的案子都會經過我的審查那在會內的一些例行的委員會我擔任很多委員會的召集人包含信憑、偵審會、資訊還有資安還有現在有一個永續長永續委員會"},{"start":6585.49,"end":6605.971,"text":"那當然會面也特別針對一些特殊的政策或制度的變革有成立了一些比較特別的委員會像結合申報程序的改進的委員會我也是負責召集人那另外一個就是有關數位經濟的一個委員會那本人也是或主委的指示擔任召集人那這個數位經濟的部分"},{"start":6607.913,"end":6620.407,"text":"在我的指導之下還有領導之下我們的數位小組最後制定了一個叫數位經濟競爭政策白皮書那這個白皮書獲得國內外很多的肯定那也是作為本會未來針對數位經濟的競爭問題的一個範本、一個指南"},{"start":6626.374,"end":6637.729,"text":"那另外在除了這個以外我本身也是會裡面負責國際事務的公平會目前是國際間的一些主要的競爭的國際組織的一個會員包含OECD競爭委員會還有ICN這個所謂的競爭網絡"},{"start":6643.897,"end":6663.282,"text":"那基本上國際事務是由我來負責特別是在OECD的部分那我每年大概都會率團參加OECD的國際研討會那在會裡面將本會的執法績效向與會各國來做一個報告並接受詢問那這一點我想在國際間讓台灣公平交易委員會能夠獲得"},{"start":6664.462,"end":6664.762,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6681.751,"end":6701.134,"text":"就是必須跟國際間的執法現況有一定程度的接軌那當然也加速這個國際化的程度那在這個過程當中公平會當然持續會面臨到很多新的競爭議題那這是本會在執法能量還有執法品質必須要加以提升的那我相信以我個人在學界的專攻"},{"start":6701.935,"end":6702.035,"text":"主席"},{"start":6721.243,"end":6732.129,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝國民市長跟陳志民被提名的說明。現在進行巡查。巡查委員巡查之前做一下宣告。國民法案實現聯繫委員會4分鐘,非聯繫委員會3分鐘。第一位請黃國昌。麻煩有請被提名的。"},{"start":6752.222,"end":6780.574,"text":"委員早背題人你好我想我只這一次請教你問題的原則跟上一位被提名人主委李美態度一模一樣只有4分鐘的時間那我想要確定確定一下你的立場那也給你機會說明2022年7月公平會通過全聯併購大論法案4比3"},{"start":6782.518,"end":6810.794,"text":"4比3非常近的比例全聯併合大論發了以後在市場上面所具有獨佔的地位對消費者所造成的衝擊跟影響我想副主委你很清楚吧?清楚你很清楚嗎?清楚在那一次併購的時候有委員提出來說要全聯一年要捐3億出來那位委員是你嗎?不是是哪一位委員?"},{"start":6812.341,"end":6823.229,"text":"是不是容許委員我就不方便在這邊好沒有關係啊你贊不贊成可以這樣搞可以這樣搞這跟市場的公平競爭秩序有什麼關係啊"},{"start":6825.299,"end":6850.266,"text":"坦白跟委員講這個案子在審查當下我個人是有提出這樣的一個意見什麼意見 說清楚我有提醒委員要注意到不當連結的問題你有提醒他要注意不當連結的問題他還是執意為之因為每個委員都有獨立行使之權是啊但你們委員會共同做出決定在公平會裡面的決定書當中"},{"start":6854.491,"end":6880.473,"text":"出現了這樣子的東西等於是什麼?裡面有委員因為個人的喜好個人的偏好開口要求業者加碼再捐一億他才要投贊成票你說你有提醒這有不當連結禁止原則違反的問題他還是執意為之那你們委員會在進行審議的時候"},{"start":6882.554,"end":6910.174,"text":"不應該把這件事情納入考慮嗎我想當初在討論的時候所有的各個面向都會在委員會裡面是!針對這件事情的面向請副主委我提醒副主委我現在是在給你機會可以這樣幹嗎你個人覺得適合嗎清楚表明你的看法我的看法就是在那次委員會裡面我表達對那個委員表達的看法"},{"start":6911.158,"end":6939.685,"text":"表達什麼看法再說一次清楚的跟大家講我提醒在付負擔跟我們結合案的審查必須要符合不當連結的原則你認為這有沒有違反不當連結禁止原則我個人認為是這樣的一個連結是並不是很妥當好我就是要這種態度啊要不然我們在這邊審查什麼每一個人的看法心中的那把尺很重要"},{"start":6941.496,"end":6968.888,"text":"公平交易委員會牽涉到多少衝擊消費者利益保護的事情啊要求全聯捐錢才要通過結合權力這麼大胡搞瞎搞到這種程度啊再往後看2022年7月到目前為止全聯有沒有履行每年捐3億的承諾就我了解是有了"},{"start":6969.718,"end":6972.719,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6991.818,"end":7016.017,"text":"結果通過付負擔當然事後競爭主管機關還是得要持續去監督有沒有履行是那監督的結果呢那很遺憾的就是看到企業沒有按照當初答應的來履行所以我們當然就處罰以併購阿他所得的經濟上利益跟你罰他兩千萬你會不會覺得不痛不癢一般的人民阿可能搞個兩千萬就要傾家蕩產阿"},{"start":7018.439,"end":7018.599,"text":"好 主席站起來囉 謝謝"},{"start":7047.483,"end":7051.064,"text":"有請秘書長、提名副主委、副秘書長、陳志民副提名人"},{"start":7077.57,"end":7084.017,"text":"民主黨我再讓你清楚除了剛才我第一次的發言是針對主張多層次傳銷應該已有經濟部來處理以及第二個我也這個附議陳庭飛成委員的將這個制度改為這個許可是有報備這改許可是另外一個在這個"},{"start":7098.098,"end":7117.369,"text":"我們有成立一個在公平會有成立一個多層次傳銷保護基金會這也算是說依法成立啦原意是希望說我們的傳銷商業者跟傳銷商我們要保護最基層的傳銷商好那你看喔你知道他們的績效多差"},{"start":7118.389,"end":7119.871,"text":"10年啊從100這個10年從103年到113年這滿10年好然後呢他現在累計多少錢3.6億"},{"start":7130.356,"end":7147.459,"text":"基金那這些業者呢 非常的憤憤不平因為這個基金會就是不做事他們繳錢不做事他們繳這個年費在我們的倡議之下我這個經過幾次都認為這個是沒有用的所以他們從今年開始不收年費了"},{"start":7148.82,"end":7153.262,"text":"那年費呢 之前是怎麼樣這個新報備還沒有營業先繳一萬塊按照累計啊 這個你的營業額到五百萬以上的有兩萬到營業額七萬以上的繳十萬這年費那在我們倡議之下 這個實在太沒有功能了他們終於有一點點覺醒說好 那就從今天開始不用繳年費"},{"start":7170.51,"end":7174.771,"text":"好 你知道基金呢保護基金他們要繳喔年費跟保護基金不用繳年費要繳基金嘛那基金呢就是說你的營業額如果我從上往下多的20億以上的你每年喔要繳400萬營業額15億以上的呢是未滿20億的呢繳300萬營業額呢10億到未滿15億的呢繳250萬營業額6億以上未達10億的繳200萬等等等"},{"start":7200.657,"end":7200.8,"text":"大家好!"},{"start":7201.144,"end":7201.324,"text":"強迫他繳的"},{"start":7231.344,"end":7257.998,"text":"律師我也支持你所以你知道這些業者這些本土的業者我們一定挺本土的業者他有辦法立足台灣放眼全球的服務業你告訴我有哪幾個有啦現在多了一個叫做那個那個那個連鎖店的連鎖直銷的這個也是很這個在服務業當中就是多層次上要跟這個連鎖店我們有辦法業者自己立足台灣放眼全球啊"},{"start":7258.578,"end":7278.349,"text":"好那這些業者這些本土的業者怎麼說呢他說我們寧願吼我們不要講廢掉這個基金會我全數歸功他們已經覺得憤恨不平這是這個是這個是幾乎啊要你政府強力的勒索我業者我有這些業績我就一定得講"},{"start":7279.744,"end":7305.011,"text":"所以他做了什麼 剛才我也報告了10年 調組代償一件然後呢 調組呢 好不容易在我們的催促之下你覺得業者 我這個多層次這些業者 他們基本上也不需要你什麼什麼去調組 因為這是他的信譽如果他的傳銷商來跟他有什麼的這個不管是合約啦 或者是相關的"},{"start":7305.931,"end":7309.093,"text":"財政部金融消費平益中心深受人民滿意度之高"},{"start":7331.167,"end":7354.615,"text":"我都舉例喔,我在那個過往的質詢當中財政部的金融消費平益中心都是幾百件幾百件然後每年的這樣在那個那同樣都是業者租錢這個基金會很特別喔多層次傳接保護基金政府一毛錢都沒出你看我對公平會喔真的是政府一毛錢沒出他要主導他的董事董監事"},{"start":7356.021,"end":7379.815,"text":"他要主導這不是很奇怪嗎所以他只在小道齁如果今天不是秘書長來齁我還真沒有我的陳情案齁我真的要感謝秘書長其實我本席就一些產業界的一些業的問題我到你這邊你其實都會幫我處理我對你是敬佩啊就是說你真的來當秘書長我實在是非常開心的我剛好逮到今天你才來到這邊我可以跟你陳情啊"},{"start":7381.415,"end":7389.518,"text":"這邊都是本土的業者捏那我們的公平業都是土外商捏然後這個東西還壓在我們國內的這些業者捏強制的要求他們繳錢捏400萬、300萬這樣在繳捏這個秘書長您講個話吧您覺得在你的評估當中要不要處理"},{"start":7401.992,"end":7411.574,"text":"剛剛委員也有反映嘛業者的這個想法嘛我想公平委員會也做了適度的調整那這個調整程度夠不夠我想容我們不是不夠不是不夠的問題是完全無能秘書長如果今天不是因為本黨本黨的立委我一定要去支持那個人事案因為有假動嘛我不支持我必必被罰要不然我真的投不下去啦"},{"start":7431.617,"end":7431.777,"text":"主席"},{"start":7462.399,"end":7483.89,"text":"各位委員有請被提名的副主委副主委你在公平會很多年了過去我看了相關的這些報告這個"},{"start":7489.153,"end":7506.74,"text":"臺灣為已開發國家被詐金額最高的國家日常交易已成詐騙的溫床就公平會的業務而言這些被詐騙的有哪些是屬於你們的"},{"start":7509.994,"end":7538.012,"text":"各位報告一下就是如果純粹是吸金故意惡意的詐欺這個本身會涉及到刑責的問題那這部分案子我們大概就是依請檢察官或法務部這邊來進行後續的調查那本會的立場對於這個詐騙行為主要是在不實廣告的規定所以如果業者有刻意的散佈錯誤的訊息導致消費者去做了錯誤的消費決定這部分我們都是會嚴格去查處跟處分這個副主委"},{"start":7539.178,"end":7564.306,"text":"不是只有不實廣告我們看公平交易委員會組織法維護交易自息以消費者權益然後公平會組織法第二條這裡面公平交易經濟各方面的很多多層次傳教當然這個比較跟那個沒有關係這裡面"},{"start":7570.242,"end":7597.456,"text":"提供商品或服務從事交易事業亦不得為其足以影響交易自息之期望或顯示公平之行為所以網路交易啊現在就是你的法要以時俱進就是法沒有以時俱進你才會限收在你剛剛講的"},{"start":7599.824,"end":7628.339,"text":"你不能說以此形式第一個現在最忙的是警政署警察人員打詐司法好像跟你沒有關係這個就是錯誤的所以你要去分析整個台灣成為詐騙的這個一個國家你要去分析哪些應該是"},{"start":7630.45,"end":7651.984,"text":"屬於公平交易委員會這個公平交易法沒有以時計進你不要到刑事了之後才那前面的防範很重要交易它是交易喔網路交易是交易這個都是都是"},{"start":7661.874,"end":7690.241,"text":"冒充或依附或是不時促銷手段隱匿重要交易資訊我們看這個公平交易法106年6月14號修正到現在7年6個月而這7年來各式各樣的網路交易"},{"start":7691.483,"end":7719.145,"text":"當初106年以前你可以了解吧副主委106年以前網路交易是非常少啊106年之後尤其是這幾年對不對所以你要去就現行的這麼多的個案而不是全部推託給這個警察單位然後這個"},{"start":7721.297,"end":7742.472,"text":"相關的這些司法機關那個都是已經後面的前面的怎麼去防範非常非常的重要我跟委員補充一下那個其實我們並不是說事前的東西都不做了我們也是行政院打詐團隊的一個一份子所以對於事詐打詐這一塊我們也是積極在做那我非常同意委員所談到的與時俱進"},{"start":7743.353,"end":7743.373,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":7772.513,"end":7773.864,"text":"下位諮詢請李玉玲委員"},{"start":7785.852,"end":7807.745,"text":"謝謝主席 現在請陳志民被提名人請陳志民被提名人委員早是 副主委最近我們很多的多層次媒體傳銷這個部分都被我們民眾認為是個吸金詐騙這事情越來越多所以現在我們在這個制度上面我們是行使了這個報備制"},{"start":7809.906,"end":7810.627,"text":"請問副主委您的態度你認為要改成許可制嗎?"},{"start":7824.38,"end":7841.692,"text":"你支持許可制嗎?我想個人制度都可以考慮了但是因為像多層次傳銷基本本質上是一個私人的商業行為之間所以原則上從一個自由經濟體的制度來講的話我們會覺得說盡可能不要過度的介入當然不是過度介入是表示都不管"},{"start":7844.513,"end":7850.976,"text":"徐克制基本上通常是在比較例外這個產業比較有特殊性質徐克制徐克制徐克制徐克制徐克制徐克"},{"start":7865.563,"end":7865.803,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7882.652,"end":7898.916,"text":"談判有這麼多年之後一直被詐騙阿很多的媒體的廣告宣傳你們要每一篇每一篇去看嗎?用報備你有去看嗎?在報備制度底下只要報備文件進來會內一定會詳細去看阿那報備制也不是說你詳細去看主委在我們113年到現在11月底阿我們這個有多層次傳銷有來報備的384家將近這5年時間有119家違法的案例"},{"start":7912.624,"end":7927.296,"text":"違法的案例你們怎麼說據我了解大部分違法的案例都是沒有來報備或是變更沒有來變更所以大部分是那個程序上他沒有去服務所以你抓到的違法的案例有報備的你才抓得到沒有報備的你抓不到嗎"},{"start":7928.37,"end":7928.53,"text":"副主任委員"},{"start":7943.51,"end":7956.94,"text":"所以我們也是進行本席支持許可制的為什麼要用許可制我們政府出面來做一些多層次傳銷的工作可以讓我們政府進行管理讓一些不肖人士對這個傳銷知名來行詐騙民眾讓很多民眾都苦不堪言那到現在都很痛苦這件事情可以去限縮他一些必須準備好的資料跟他們傳銷、傳播、宣傳的內容你們才可以去做一個"},{"start":7973.913,"end":7990.744,"text":"審核跟管理可以嗎這一點我們在報備制的精神底下只要業者東西進來如果我們覺得不足我們都還是會要求他說明等等那另外詐騙基本上形式我們也會跟法務部、調查局你只有叫他們說明有沒有推薦的沒有吧"},{"start":7991.344,"end":8006.301,"text":"報備你只是善意的這樣宣傳不可以而已啊你有沒有禁止他所以現在很多像保養的這個食品或者保養的化妝品之類的你們都是屬於這個沒有去高度去管理"},{"start":8007.807,"end":8034.173,"text":"依照我們多生事專家管理辦法他們送進來的東西我們就按照那個法律的規定來做實質的審查實質的這個你說報備你有實質審查你不是報備嗎就是送進來的東西我們要去看嘛到底你報備的東西那你看了結果你的處理方式呢你怎麼管理管理就是進來的話如果符合這個東西然後符合我們的要求當然這個就算報備完成嘛那如果事後他有該報備不報備或是說報備內容不實等等才不報備了你們加強會怎麼樣做呢"},{"start":8035.034,"end":8036.778,"text":"加強 我們當然就是業務單位不報備又違法又詐騙呢會處罰 因為對 會比較高嗎"},{"start":8044.332,"end":8048.795,"text":"所以我還是建議啦我們可以採用許可制那我們可以由政府來嚴加管理那我們這個整個傳銷的這個事業用合法性跟合理性來做一個管理讓他們的整個規模不要有個模糊地帶他們很多的宣傳你們看到都是很多模糊的地方所以我們希望我們對這個民眾的保障民眾我們對合法的產業要做一個保障"},{"start":8073.49,"end":8090.213,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8092.038,"end":8112.375,"text":"副主委提名人你身兼公平會的發言人在這一次審查烏貝爾跟這個普遍達的合併案的整個過程當中你認為最大的挑戰是什麼那對於大眾的一個溝通是否還有改進的空間請做說明"},{"start":8113.895,"end":8114.515,"text":"不要讓外界有挑戰"},{"start":8129.941,"end":8147.87,"text":"外界有誤解或挑戰不要讓外界亂好請繼續那在委員會討論過程當中我想針對這案子委員都高度重視所以那個討論是非常充分的討論非常的充分那對於大眾的溝通呢大眾的溝通我想你認為在整個過程當中因為這一段時間半年人民很恐慌"},{"start":8148.71,"end":8162.562,"text":"大家都在期待你的答案是什麼又來一個延長當然你依法但是你認為讓民眾有所恐慌的時候是否你們在對大眾的一個溝通有改進有增長的空間"},{"start":8163.328,"end":8185.561,"text":"是 因為我是來公平會的發言人所以這個還有地方要學習不過從這個案子的確我也看到就是說有些社會大眾普遍矚目的案子的確在必要的時候可能開一個記者會公開對大家講非常好你願意這麼說讓民眾不恐慌這也是公平會很重要的角色我也一併請秘書長請秘書長 主席國民書長 謝謝"},{"start":8192.062,"end":8198.867,"text":"董事長剛剛李美主委也是提名人她也說了我們這一次在25號的這個不同意併購讓大家鬆了一口氣那在這樣的情況之下我們接續還要讓人民好生活也就要請教處理外送平台的議題和併案議題之後"},{"start":8213.519,"end":8225.279,"text":"解采旦了但是以專業跟產業發展的權益保障的角度來看呢你會不會支持立法來這個外送員的產業相關的專法"},{"start":8228.459,"end":8242.206,"text":"因為他現在牽涉到的包括是除了平台之外有店家還有消費者本席請教是針對外送員的相關專法對因為他環環相扣勞動部已經開始他同意我們也給他們時間他們在研擬我們也提案請教因為必須要整合必須要整合"},{"start":8253.232,"end":8255.234,"text":"我們可能還是要尊重主管機關的權限"},{"start":8272.57,"end":8297.6,"text":"跟委員報告有一個不管是專法也好或專章也好有一個針對這個特殊性的它的確是真的是比較特殊跟其他的都不太一樣那我們同意這個特殊性來立怎麼樣的一個形式上好 非常好同意特殊性的怎麼樣協助人民這是政府的責任嗎非常好我聽到行政院秘書長你的立場我也要聽提名人你的立場"},{"start":8299.281,"end":8314.187,"text":"也就是說制定專法可能這是主管機關他的權限原則上我們都尊重那等到這個專法假設出來以後本會會從本會的職場的機關的角度來提供一些這個法案的建議我也歡喜聽到秘書長剛才所說因為這個專法也必須橫向的部會跨部會來協調我也聽到以上三位剛剛包括剛剛李美珠的都"},{"start":8325.111,"end":8337.945,"text":"同意以人民的權益為基準在我們的外送員的設置產業專法那我很感謝我們繼續加油所以本期要請教在你的簡歷當中我請民事長站一下因為這個也要跨部會"},{"start":8341.849,"end":8346.111,"text":"在你的簡歷當中你對於產業政策跟競爭政策的融合難度你強調未來應該要強化跨部會的協調所以請問你目前你目前認為我們在執行的過程當中你的難處是什麼你又有什麼樣的方案可以建議給我們你後面的行政院的秘書長來協助跨部會的一個協調"},{"start":8369.821,"end":8370.061,"text":"副主任委員"},{"start":8389.306,"end":8405.148,"text":"立委在召開一些法條制定的時候有些特別的專法那在這個過程當中是不是跟公平交易法會有一些抵觸我都會在這個場合裡面去表達公平會的立場所以表示我們現在目前在執行的確是有跨部會必須要"},{"start":8406.189,"end":8426.938,"text":"再合作再協調的空間秘書長我請秘書長秘書長您聽到因為他是這個公立單位中立單位所以很重要的必須要有政府跨部會來協助你會協助吧萬一你會協助所以因此我也要特別強調請秘書長也要協助"},{"start":8430.419,"end":8451.555,"text":"他們目前執行讓人民這麼多的質疑也就是在整個跨部會裡頭他還是有增長協調的空間那你必須要來協助對不對好你點頭所以我要勉勵我們的提議人因為與時俱進的我們現在台灣要怎麼樣去因應數位化的時代變遷這個"},{"start":8453.997,"end":8454.157,"text":"委員長 請回座"},{"start":8471.461,"end":8493.164,"text":"我們會持續進進因為已經有個數位白皮書我們會在那個基礎底下持續的看國際間的發展來做一些調整那剛委員提到了我們都會密切注意這個也就是說國際間這麼做政府也在這麼做最後仲裁的單位他是獨立單位必須我們自己必須要有這樣子的一個條件"},{"start":8494.105,"end":8494.125,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8521.855,"end":8541.58,"text":"審判會、審判會、審判會不在、宗教兵、宗教兵、宗教兵不在本期的諮詢改成書面登記發言委員處不在場之外,其議均已發言完畢,我們訓課結束,現在請陳志民被提名的人先起先離席,好,謝謝我們現在休息,我們下午2點繼續開會"},{"start":8823.848,"end":8824.889,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8891.203,"end":8893.422,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9924.65,"end":9925.742,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10654.735,"end":10656.408,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11209.497,"end":11211.305,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11449.804,"end":11451.152,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11618.831,"end":11619.889,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12343.097,"end":12344.326,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12690.12,"end":12690.181,"text":"本集完"},{"start":13862.322,"end":13862.382,"text":"本集完"},{"start":14590.957,"end":14591.019,"text":"本集完"},{"start":14828.524,"end":14830.179,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16042.032,"end":16042.092,"text":"本集完"},{"start":16318.916,"end":16320.111,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16739.957,"end":16743.49,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17089.019,"end":17090.316,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17956.613,"end":17957.807,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18226.988,"end":18227.688,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18688.684,"end":18688.786,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18921.698,"end":18923.37,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19333.302,"end":19334.718,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19542.972,"end":19550.279,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19711.374,"end":19713.131,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19726.304,"end":19743.816,"text":"好 我們繼續開會首先我還是介紹一下行政院今天下午初期的行政院秘書長 龔明欣以及第一位我們審查被提名人 洪財隆先生 謝謝首先請行政院秘書長 龔明欣做說明"},{"start":19751.947,"end":19765.058,"text":"謝謝主席。各位委員,被提名的洪財隆先生是現任的公平會委員,他的專長是在經濟議題方面,尤其是在產業分析、行為經濟學、國際經濟關係等等。"},{"start":19768.727,"end":19783.806,"text":"他也曾經在臺灣經濟研究院擔任副研究員的職務還有四清大學也擔任過助理教授還有清華大學的社會研究所也是助理教授入委會的諮詢委員他也擔任過民進黨政策會的副執行長"},{"start":19788.53,"end":19814.993,"text":"然後在財文法人、新境界、文教基金會、擔任資深研究員等等的相關職務那我們認為他的這個專業跟學識或者是實務經驗學長巨優那敬請貴院支持同意那也敬請指教好好謝謝請任國民部長說明現在請公民會委員被提名陳慶堂先生說明"},{"start":19816.493,"end":19821.015,"text":"主席、秘書長、各位委員各位先請大家午安我是洪財隆是公民會新任委員很榮幸有這個場合跟機會來這邊接受大家的指教"},{"start":19845.7,"end":19862.617,"text":"那我的學經歷我想大家應該有稍微參閱那我曾經練過法律那練過經濟所以對政策的關懷是我一輩子的興趣那我自己個人的特質是我也有很強烈的社會關懷"},{"start":19863.778,"end":19874.646,"text":"所以無論在什麼樣一個位置上我通常很喜歡傾向把這個理論跟這個臺灣的現實世界做一個很深的連結我想這是我的一個特點那很榮幸來公民會服務我想這過去這幾年我有很深的體會就是說這是一個獨立合一的機關那需要法律跟財經跟外面的人才"},{"start":19891.338,"end":19912.826,"text":"我自己對這個機關的認識大概有三點第一個是它是一個擔任裁判市場競爭秩序裁判的一個角色大家知道它有一個規範的權利所以無論是外商、科技巨擘或是說一般的事業基本上對公平會的相關的一個辦法或是說一個處理原則"},{"start":19913.726,"end":19913.746,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":19934.591,"end":19934.691,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19964.431,"end":19969.814,"text":"陳慶堂開門狗就是說在很多的事情特別是經濟產業在發展的時候比如說後來的數位平台、科技巨擘這些大的一些跨國的影響力跟市場力攬刮很多各地的資源的時候這時候公平會作為一個競爭法機關是應該扮演這個開門狗的角色大家知道開門狗我想不只是獄警"},{"start":19992.347,"end":19998.831,"text":"甚至他可以有適當的權力可以予以節制這是我想我自己對這個公民會經濟法機關這個獨立機關的一個看待然後至於我個人而言我相信就是說我對權力、知識跟勇氣這三個面向的思考我想這一輩子以來我想是相當深刻的"},{"start":20013.78,"end":20022.384,"text":"我想講的權利是當然我們公部門有一個power我剛剛講的規範的權利另外是知識我也相信經濟學方面的一個應用跟知識可以幫台灣社會很大的忙我們常常講說天下沒有白吃的午餐其實在很多政策領域只要我們細心的觀察我們就可以找到一些免費的跟白吃的午餐所以我想我過去這幾年在很多的個案的審理也好或是說"},{"start":20039.753,"end":20040.253,"text":"競爭政策判斷"},{"start":20070.013,"end":20090.348,"text":"這時候你提出你的意見的時候有時候大家知道我們會有從眾的行為那會有那個壓力那我覺得我對我自己的期許是有不怕尷尬的勇氣我想甚至有時候會因此會過度承擔那不過我想這個都一切都值得的這是我想先跟大家做這樣的一個分享謝謝"},{"start":20093.998,"end":20107.156,"text":"謝謝我們洪財隆被請言的說明也謝謝行政院國民黨說明我們現在進行詢答委員詢答之前主席做以下宣告委員發言時間聯席會委員4分鐘非聯席會委員3分鐘第一位委員請鐘嘉斌"},{"start":20121.277,"end":20129.982,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的包括被提名人、機關代表我想底下我們就請洪被提名人我來跟您做一個請教"},{"start":20137.819,"end":20155.442,"text":"洪委員你好,因為你是現任委員還是稱洪委員是,謝謝我了解你去年出了一本書叫做《隱藏的說客》,是嗎?是是的,好那請教一下公平會是何意志你剛剛有說了那請問你們在做出一個處分決定的時候會不會有類似大法官的部分同意意見書或不同意見書?"},{"start":20156.696,"end":20179.769,"text":"有,我們有這個會具名是哪位委員什麼意見的對,然後會隨案公布所以對於委員過去您既然是現任委員您的看法如何不只表達在你過去公平會的一些決定上你的同意或不同意見書也表達在你的書中隱藏的碎刻那我今天底下有三件事情要跟您就教就是第一是關於公平交易委員會"},{"start":20180.669,"end":20207.26,"text":"你對於這個機關屬性和他的目的的瞭解第二個呢我想透過最近一個事件就是Hupenda跟UberEat公平會做出了決定那這個決定在反映出你們公平會對自我任務跟機關角色的認知第三個最近我們看到立法院有很多很多挾國會多數提出的法案讓我們都為之瞠目結舌比如說那麼有包括了所謂的不中斷"},{"start":20208.14,"end":20208.3,"text":"我知道"},{"start":20234.861,"end":20256.15,"text":"那請問公平會目前有這樣的規定嗎?有有那目前有委有立法院有提出修法要把這個規定改掉讓跟NCC一樣就是新任委員沒產生之前就任委員到任後就下任那你認為以公平會的角色來講如果比照NCC這樣做會對公平會的獨立機關的角色和你們運作的任務有什麼影響?"},{"start":20257.643,"end":20283.664,"text":"謝謝委員那個詮詢就第三個問題我的看法是當然我們希望一切這個提名當然就是說希望獲得貴院的這個同意跟贊同那讓那個獨立機關的運作不致中斷那另外是因為這兩個機關獨立機關它各有七位委員包括主委、副主委當然都是基數嘛就是說因為能夠做那如果有委員確認不能夠及時的補任那麼對於你們機關的運作會有影響嗎"},{"start":20287.622,"end":20288.404,"text":"目前你們還是有不中斷條款嗎?"},{"start":20292.506,"end":20315.936,"text":"那沒有錯就是說這個目前公民會的這個組織法那當然是說這個共伴委員這個出席那如果說只剩4名委員還可以做出一個公民會應有的職權行使嗎目前目前怎麼會目前人事總局的這個解釋是如此是可以的那萬一未來你們的不中斷條款被修改了那麼只剩下不全額的委員能夠運作嗎"},{"start":20318.418,"end":20330.313,"text":"按照目前的那個規定我未來如果比照NCC不中斷條款拿掉了那有委員缺額的時候能運作嗎事實上會做很大的影響那不能運作會有什麼影響"},{"start":20332.026,"end":20359.253,"text":"基本上很多的這個決定都可能無法作演很好那對於我們目前公平會回到第一個題目公平會的機關使命是什麼?任務是什麼?我想最重要的是那個促進市場有效競爭就是所謂的教育秩序另外是消費者的權益記得我看過你隱藏的說客這本書那請問一下在FuPenta跟UberEat的這個決定上假如因為現在因為公平會因為確認不能夠做出決定"},{"start":20359.873,"end":20383.815,"text":"那你覺得以這個個案來講假設的情況會出現什麼影響這個合併案實施不能做決定會有什麼影響我相信那個還是可能會通過直說他的正當性恐怕有所不足如果因為你們的不中斷條款被比照NC改掉了那麼你們在確認的情況之下做出的重大的處分案會讓申請"},{"start":20387.147,"end":20412.936,"text":"要求的有質疑質疑你們正常性那你覺得現在外界有對你們之前所做出的福佩奈跟烏柏易的這樣的一個裁定有不同意見嗎比較少你認為社會上接受你們基於市場的公平教育為了保護消費者為了保護餐廳為了保護外送員你們做出的決定你是認為得到支持的我相信絕大部分是支持的好那我想也很清楚了今天本席之會對你提出詢問"},{"start":20413.996,"end":20438.39,"text":"主要是說要確認你們原任委員對於NCC的機關使命跟任務和他對社會的作用跟影響很清楚的了解也了解到對於你們剛作出處分的案件他們社會上的認知是如何評價為何最重要即將要登場的修法對會會會產生什麼影響我們未來的被提名人如果擔任委員應該要有足夠的心理準備有嗎有"},{"start":20439.671,"end":20451.195,"text":"好,那我們希望呢,你能夠順利的通過提名審查,也希望未來NCC,不對,應該說是公平會,能夠繼續的耽誤它的使命,為了社會,我們公平交易的秩序,能夠繼續運作。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":20466.493,"end":20468.957,"text":"謝謝主席 請被提名人 洪財隆委員"},{"start":20478.797,"end":20507.839,"text":"好委員好你好今天上午黃國昌委員針對在2022年7月公平會通過全聯併購大論發的時候有委員要求全聯每年要捐款贊助有關於體育跟棋藝他問了李美跟陳志民兩位被提名人他們兩位都說他們兩位從來沒有講過那我想請問在這個併購案裡面是不是你要求來贊助投資"},{"start":20510.421,"end":20513.323,"text":"我想請問,你是不是西洋旗協會的會員?"},{"start":20515.334,"end":20518.756,"text":"我沒有參加現體協會,但是我有參加活動你有參加活動,你是不是會員?我不是會員過去是不是會員?不是會員那請問一下公平會在審核一個兩大併購案的時候卻要求業者去贊助特定的活動或者協會,你認為適當嗎?"},{"start":20539.583,"end":20550.159,"text":"跟外會委員報告這樣子就說這個案子大家知道嗎你認為適當嗎適當的結果因為我時間非常有限我是說實在我心理上是同意這個這個合併案的"},{"start":20552.498,"end":20563.806,"text":"但是你不管你同不同意但是要求在這個併貨案的過程裡面要求來做這個捐款等於是一個募款這是極不適當的行為好另外因為你是續任的委員那麼在2017年跟2018年公平會有一個世紀大案就是高通當時在前一年"},{"start":20577.896,"end":20595.501,"text":"公平會罰高通234億元但是到第二年在高通的一個要求下公平會跟他和解成功最後放水只罰了27億元那這個案子"},{"start":20596.201,"end":20600.884,"text":"當時引起業界嘩然而且是全世界首見我請問你當時主張和解嗎是你主張和解因為你是唯一當時時任的另外當時監察院調查這件案子而且還糾正了公平會可是公平會悍然拒絕提供當時的和解錄音檔也使得當時的業者沒有辦法向高通來求償"},{"start":20626.202,"end":20641.816,"text":"請問一下你同意公平會當時的黑箱作業嗎?報告後來這個事情最後還是有提供錄音檔當時後來沒有提供的時候你是主張的嗎?你是主張不提供的嗎?最後我是主張提供"},{"start":20642.526,"end":20642.926,"text":"目前已經超過14億美元,謝謝"},{"start":20664.514,"end":20674.623,"text":"目前多少?已經超過在2022年年底已經超過14億美元到2022年才開始投資嗎?不是已經我們有5年的專案所以從2018開始到2023結束好我這個"},{"start":20679.868,"end":20685.195,"text":"講了這麼多就是有關高通的案子因為當時呢你親記過關因為當時在立法院的整個結構之下好像沒有什麼人在關心這個案子一個全世界獨家然後傷害我們台灣產業的一個案子"},{"start":20698.249,"end":20717.275,"text":"從234億變成27億和解而且竟然還拒絕提供監察院相關的錄音帶我覺得這都是極不適任的因為這次你是應該唯一續任因為原來的郭淑珍委員她這次也沒有再續任我覺得這件事情必須在這一次續任案裡面然後讓大家全面的來檢視以及檢討以上謝謝"},{"start":20722.242,"end":20748.033,"text":"下一位陳寧菲、陳寧菲、陳寧菲不在、張家俊、張家俊、張家俊不在、洪孟凱、洪孟凱、洪孟凱不在、洪國昌、洪國昌、洪國昌、洪國昌不在登記發言委員處部在場之外,區議均已發言完畢,訓導結束。現在請洪財隆被提名先離席。我們休息3分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘"},{"start":20933.221,"end":20947.802,"text":"現在繼續開會這個下午第二場是我們公民會委員會提名人陳進昌先生的審查會那首先請行政院院長先請公民心院長先做說明"},{"start":20954.271,"end":20964.635,"text":"謝謝主席。向主席跟各位委員報告,林慶堂被提名人,他目前現任於公平會服務業競爭處處長。他的專長在經濟及法律議題上,尤其在產業經濟及公平交易法上,學有專長。"},{"start":20975.378,"end":20990.026,"text":"他曾經擔任過公研院的副研究員,之後幾乎都在公平會他當過公平會的專員、視察科長、專門委員、第三處副處長、公平會公平競爭處副處長"},{"start":20991.887,"end":21007.014,"text":"秘書處主任等職務在公平會已經三十幾年了所以他的專業、學識和實務經驗事實上都非常優秀敬請貴院來支持以上報告"},{"start":21020.646,"end":21035.262,"text":"主席、各位在場的先進、午安我是林慶堂很榮幸承蒙行政院長提名今天才有這個機會在這裡接受各位的指教我的職長生涯就成如剛剛秘書長所說的我在公民研究服務超過30年了"},{"start":21036.414,"end":21063.356,"text":"那我在公民會歷經4個業務單位對公民會執法的執掌的公民交易法跟端倫傳銷都有相當的執法經驗那我簡要說明一下我過往的執法經驗首先我在近5年擔任處長的期間對公民交易法有關聯合行為的部分我們共處分了16件違法的聯合行為我舉例說明包括中華電信與台灣大哥大共同合意取消電信支費的優惠方案那另外也包括航空、產險"},{"start":21065.902,"end":21077.483,"text":"建築專業鑑定醫療服務等業者的違法聯合行為至於受社會矚目的重大結案件的審查上﹐包括近期受各界矚目的烏貝爾跟忽貝納的結案"},{"start":21078.098,"end":21099.985,"text":"還有之前的錢櫃跟好樂迪的結案我們公平會都是予以禁止這是在我任內完成的那另外針對大型流動事業全能跟大倫巴還有家樂福跟惠康還有兩大兩小的電信業者的事件水平結案件有分別以附加負擔的方式來確保整體經濟利益那其他還有一些處分案件"},{"start":21100.972,"end":21128.007,"text":"這裡就不再贅述那其次我在擔任科長的4年期間特別針對惡性重大的變質多元傳銷予以強力的查處總計罰款查處了17件變質多元傳銷那這類的案件往往受害人數超過萬人那不法利益動輒高達數億元常導致受害者家庭破碎甚至引起社會問題那本會都是予以重罰與移送檢查機關追究刑事責任"},{"start":21129.264,"end":21158.435,"text":"那以上我的執法經驗讓我對未來的工作深具信心至於我對於擔任公平會委員職務的看法我認為在現行新興科技衍生的各類新型態的商業模式下特別是在當前的數位經濟時代下業者常常運用平台、演算法、人工智慧、大數據等工具從事競爭使得市場競爭變得更多元且複雜與交錯那公平會在個案的競爭評估上也因此面臨了多邊市場"},{"start":21159.255,"end":21175.206,"text":"．建界網路效應等這些課題．這些課題都會影響到執法上的判斷．所以公平委員在面對科技驅動商業模式的快速發展下．執法的思維也應該與時俱進．經由關注國際間競爭法的執法動態．深化國內的產業調查．加強產業對話．傾聽外界的建言．發掘市場潛在的競爭疑慮．來規劃調適執法的政策．才能夠確實進行"},{"start":21189.615,"end":21209.889,"text":"維護市場交易秩序的職責本人如果謀大願同意擔任公平會委員自當克盡職守堅守專業公正客觀依法獨立行使職權的立場做好維護市場競爭秩序的守護者的角色以上是我的報告進行指教謝謝好謝謝公平會委員被提名陳議長先生的說明"},{"start":21211.243,"end":21224.811,"text":"我們現在進行詢答委員先生之前主席做以下宣告每位委員發言時間聯席會委員4分鐘非聯席會委員3分鐘第一位請鍾嘉賓委員發言OK好"},{"start":21227.591,"end":21247.207,"text":"陳婷菲、陳婷菲、陳婷菲不在登記發言委員除不在場之外﹐其餘均已發言完畢﹐詢答結束委員﹐邱毅英﹐吳思瑤﹐鍾家斌﹐邱志偉﹐張家俊﹐沈華慧﹐所提順便質詢列入紀錄﹐刊登紅包現在請被提名人先離席"},{"start":21252.743,"end":21275.899,"text":"報告聯席 報告聯席會本日針對4位被提名相關事項審查均以審查完略作以下決議行政院函送提名公平交易委員會委員名單．李鎂續任委員並為主任委員．陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員．洪財隆續任委員．林慶堂為委員．請同意案審查完略"},{"start":21278.808,"end":21287.763,"text":"審查報告提報院會公決 院會討論時由召集委員邱志偉做補充說明本日議程出去完畢 謝謝大家 現在散會"},{"start":21340.316,"end":21341.323,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"158525","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158525","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e05e5119da324680534f10c035d50fc6485ada2b19569a09cc7cf64100f1aa8a575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:43:45 - 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40但後來也修正了變成69跟31"},{"start":324.057,"end":335.848,"text":"後來變成69跟31嗎?因為他3753就是9%但是他要一般性補助又維持6%那我想問一個問題請問一下經省前國防預算是中央預算支出還是地方支出?"},{"start":336.869,"end":355.58,"text":"他是中央支出嘛所以在精神前所有的國防預算都是中央支出嘛那為什麼你只是把原本的地方預算還給地方一部分忽然間國防預算就沒了呢這筆錢從頭到尾都是中央支出啊然後再來第二個國防預算一堆都是特別預算啊"},{"start":357.584,"end":377.023,"text":"為什麼要這樣子又要打芒果乾呢?把抗中這個恐懼套用在就事論事的公共議題上面這個我真的很不能接受欸國防預算從精神前就是由中央的預算支出你把原來的地方的預算還給地方對國防預算本來就不會影響啊而且國防預算很多都是特別預算"},{"start":378.786,"end":397.289,"text":"第三個我想問一下可能問一下財政部長啊為什麼我們新北市跟高雄啊每一次計劃性補助款我們自籌款高雄都是自籌款只要4成我們新北市要6成啊為什麼計劃性補助款有關自籌款部分是由主計總處按照地方的財政的立案主計長回答一下為什麼"},{"start":398.737,"end":418.553,"text":"這個部分我們是有定一個依照財政的財力去劃分啦對好謝謝財力所以你就是懲罰財政機率好的人嘛高雄為什麼自籌款只要付4成因為財政機率不好大量的舉債欠債多新北市財政機率好欠債少所以我們自籌款要6成"},{"start":419.734,"end":445.985,"text":"所以每個縣市都這樣搞就好了啊大量的舉債啊但是我們也有獎勵啦也有獎勵一些我想問一下臺南臺南的那個自籌款多少?比例多少?他是第四級啦臺南是多少?第三級多少?自籌款是多少?臺南是第三級他會因每個計畫各部會合定的那個比例不一樣並不是統一的大概多少嗎?幾到幾嗎?"},{"start":447.611,"end":464.132,"text":"他看計畫大概28吧72比28差不多幾趴幾趴幾十到幾十就是每樣的計畫他都不一樣那他有沒有他做款比例有沒有比新北高他就屬於那台南的話他就屬於第三級你知道我為什麼講台南嗎"},{"start":465.782,"end":490.359,"text":"之前不是討論一個議題嗎就是國民黨本來有要提案但是現在說不及的提案就是老人的健保費65歲以上本來的版本是說只補助20%所得的集聚在20%以下的長輩本來的版本後來說改成5%但後來因為大家有疑慮所以這個沒有說要等到有共識在推你們應該知道這個事吧應該知道這個事吧我那時候老人福利法老人福利法那"},{"start":496.072,"end":522.009,"text":"我看到很多民進黨的立委出來亂鬼扯說為什麼我們要補助郭台銘健保費我不知道郭台銘的難道他的所得稅原來是在20%以下原來他都不用繳所得稅這鬼扯蛋但我告訴你哪一個縣市就是20%好不好台南市就是台南市目前台南市的錢他們市政府的錢就有補助所得稅20%級距以下的長輩不用健保費就有"},{"start":524.795,"end":547.861,"text":"所以實際上實際上如果說各縣市一樣啊如果按照你們邏輯那我們各縣市就來補助啊我們現在新北市是所得稅5%以下長輩有受到補助那一樣新北市舉債然後去給那個20%以下的長輩然後財政機率搞得比較差未來去申請計劃性補助的時候哇我們的自籌款就變少了咧本來六成欸四成欸你覺得這樣公平嗎主計長你覺得這樣公平嗎"},{"start":551.909,"end":562.896,"text":"指出的部分我們會扣款所以那個他還是也被我們扣款被你們扣款扣補助款那一樣啊那問題是他們之後在計劃性補助製作款就比較低啊"},{"start":565.031,"end":587.248,"text":"所以這個財政東西非常複雜我要講的就是其實這個非常複雜我們現在財劃法只是修統籌分配稅款而已但中央給地方的錢有好幾種有統籌分配稅款、有一般性補助款、有計劃性補助款然後這裡面還有貓膩除了要看表面金額之外你還要看你的自籌款比例多少、中央補助的比例多少"},{"start":588.169,"end":605.127,"text":"是要整體來看嘛那現在統統不斷的來修之後哇 台南高雄跳出來哭說哎呀 中北青南外北新北300多我們才多少那你們要不要想想你們一般性補助款拿多少你們計劃性補助款拿多少你們計劃性補助款裡面的自籌款是多少要比 不玩了啦"},{"start":605.988,"end":625.598,"text":"我在這邊講我只是希望我相信對面幾位政務官你們都是就事論事的人啊之後這個議題還會不斷延燒網路上一堆梗圖亂七八糟的都在顛倒是非希望你們秉持政務官的風骨啦不要動不動出來帶風向啦還總預算重編欸我真的覺得真的莫名其妙啊"}]}},{"id":"158528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0ca4db4a03c04878583be44f6eda3de937188e395e503a223f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"14:12:14 - 14:16:36","影片長度":"00:04:22","會議時間":"2024-12-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送公平交易委員會委員提名名單，李鎂續任委員並為主任委員、陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員、洪財隆續任委員，林慶堂為委員，請同意案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-12-30","start_time":"2024-12-30T14:12:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-30T14:16:36+08:00","duration":262,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-19,36-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.62034375,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.344093750000003,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.59284375,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.05659375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.909093750000004,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.55034375,"end":52.680968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.83284375,"end":57.017843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.55784375,"end":62.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.375968750000006,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.62034375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.98721875000001,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.47221875000001,"end":66.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.11346875000001,"end":67.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.49721875,"end":68.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.29034375,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.90846875000001,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.54909375000001,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.46034375,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.82721875,"end":90.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.21096875,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.88534375,"end":95.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.03721875000001,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.90284375,"end":118.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.12221875,"end":119.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.41721875,"end":125.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.56409375000001,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.71096875,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.20784375,"end":147.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.14721875,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.19784375,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.45096875000002,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.66534375,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.85909375,"end":172.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.01659375,"end":177.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.42096875000001,"end":182.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.78721875000002,"end":184.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.01471875000001,"end":187.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.11971875,"end":190.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.41471875000002,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.79409375,"end":200.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.94471875000002,"end":203.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.42534375000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.96534375000002,"end":204.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.52221875,"end":206.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.05346875,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.89659375000002,"end":213.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.17909375000002,"end":220.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.85721875000002,"end":221.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.24534375000002,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.06596875,"end":262.63971875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":11.536,"text":"請王鴻薇謝謝主席 請被提名人 洪財隆委員"},{"start":22.715,"end":40.746,"text":"今天上午,黃國昌委員針對在2022年7月公平會通過全聯併購大論發的時候有委員要求全聯每年要捐款贊助有關於體育跟棋藝他問了李美跟陳志民兩位被提名人"},{"start":41.306,"end":41.626,"text":"請問你是不是西洋旗協會的會員?"},{"start":57.891,"end":61.493,"text":"我沒有參加現體協會,但是我有參加活動你有參加活動,你是不是會員?我不是會員過去是不是會員?不是會員那請問一下公平會在審核一個兩大併購案的時候卻要求業者去贊助特定的活動或者協會,你認為適當嗎?"},{"start":82.157,"end":92.731,"text":"跟外匯委員報告,這個案子大家知道嗎?你認為適當嗎?因為我時間非常有限。說實在,我心理上是同意這個合併案的。"},{"start":95.075,"end":117.611,"text":"但是你不管你同不同意但是要求在這個病後案的過程裡面要求來做這個捐款等於是一個募款這是極不適當的行為另外因為你是續任的委員那麼在2017年跟2018年公平會有一個世紀大案就是高通當時在前一年"},{"start":120.473,"end":138.076,"text":"公平會罰高通234億元但是到第二年在高通的一個要求下公平會跟他和解成功最後放水只罰了27億元那這個案子"},{"start":138.777,"end":143.621,"text":"當時引起業界嘩然而且是全世界首見我請問你當時主張和解嗎是你主張和解因為你是唯一當時時任的另外當時監察院調查這件案子而且還糾正了公平會可是公平會悍然拒絕提供當時的和解錄音檔也使得當時的業者沒有辦法向高通來求償"},{"start":168.779,"end":184.39,"text":"請問一下,你同意公平會當時的黑箱作業嗎?報告委員,後來這個事情最後還是有提供錄音檔當時後來沒有提供的時候,你是主張的嗎?你是主張不提供的嗎?最後我是主張提供"},{"start":185.103,"end":185.243,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":207.091,"end":217.176,"text":"目前多少?已經超過在2022年年底已經超過14億美元到2022年才開始投資嗎?不是已經我們有5年的專案所以從2018開始到2023結束好我這個"},{"start":222.159,"end":224.78,"text":"講了這麼多就是有關高通的案子因為當時呢你親濟過關因為當時在立法院的整個結構之下好像沒有什麼人在關心這個案子一個全世界獨家然後傷害我們台灣產業的一個案子"},{"start":240.828,"end":259.867,"text":"從234億變成27億和解而且竟然還拒絕提供監察院相關的錄音帶我覺得這都是極不適任的因為這次你是應該唯一續任因為原來的郭淑珍委員她這次也沒有再續任我覺得這件事情必須在這一次續任案裡面然後讓大家全面的來檢視以及檢討以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158527","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158527","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e085e3a26ab4ac550983be44f6eda3de937188e395e503a22311aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"14:06:25 - 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府總預算案關於內政部警政署及所屬消防署及所屬稅出部分第三項警政署及所屬三百二十八億九千四百六十七萬三千元照列本項通過決議三項請參院"},{"start":2822.699,"end":2840.614,"text":"第五項消防署及所屬57億2146萬9千元照列本項通過決議一項請參與。二、114年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部警政署及所屬消防署及所屬審查完略拟據審查報告函送財政委員會提報院會宣讀完畢。好,請問各位同仁第17、第18次會議議事錄有無錯誤?"},{"start":2854.741,"end":2856.382,"text":"好那請李博義委員主席很高興看到你今天精神很好準備來開會"},{"start":2879.076,"end":2889.445,"text":"今天是客委會的預算詢答其實客委會應該是排在12月19號上個禮拜四的預算詢答但是上個禮拜發生的一些狀況必須要在這邊重複說明一下12月16號"},{"start":2900.578,"end":2915.051,"text":"的議事錄裡面沒有民進黨所有的委員12月16號民進黨所有的委員被左邊這個門關住了後面被國民黨其他委員會的委員門擋住了進不來進不來開會不給我們進來開會12月18號"},{"start":2920.756,"end":2941.395,"text":"12月19日也都沒有辦法開成會的原因包含還是排列選罷法包含還是排列還是由19號主席說身體不適那由國民黨黃建斌委員直接要坐上主席台但是我們根據"},{"start":2943.971,"end":2964.537,"text":"我們的召委的輪值辦法第4條輪值召委不客出席的時候得商請另一名召集委員對到代理當天張宏祿委員張宏祿召委願意代理之後再交由黃建斌委員主持但是也沒有辦法得到同意所以連續兩天的會議包含今天的會議議事錄裡面"},{"start":2967.358,"end":2980.206,"text":"行政院秘書長龔明新等人擅自離開會議室其實這個也是不對的當天的狀況是這樣子當天狀況是等到我們從一早來8點多就來等到下午2點的時候"},{"start":2982.513,"end":3005.357,"text":"會議的狀況你看這個螢幕現在還是程序發言當天的會議的狀況是會議尚未開始那會議尚未開始韓院長又要召開這個黨團協商所以內政委員會的委員們必須再到韓院長的黨團協商那這個時候我們誰知道會議偷偷開始了禮拜一不給我們進來開會禮拜三會議偷偷開始開會"},{"start":3010.658,"end":3025.329,"text":"然後今天要確認這個議事錄所以我們沒有辦法確認這個會議議事錄有兩天沒有辦法確認第一個就是民進黨委員完全沒有辦法簽名開會的一天第二個就是這個民進黨委員參加這個黨團協商之後"},{"start":3028.792,"end":3045.187,"text":"會議偷偷開始我們也不得而知會議開始要去譴責行政院秘書長這兩個會議議事錄我們覺得沒有辦法確認所以我們在這邊也必須要來提案針對12月16號的提案我們民進黨團有一個提案等一下一起來提出謝謝好謝謝李博義委員本席先回應首先第一個"},{"start":3053.291,"end":3053.571,"text":"2月12日"},{"start":3079.459,"end":3098.317,"text":"12月19日召委的代理辦法。這個在我們選召委的時候都定義的非常清楚。我們議事人員也都非常清楚知道這個召委的代理是沒有問題的。民進黨又再次顯示干擾議事不讓會議進行。這個"},{"start":3102.403,"end":3125.815,"text":"我們也要在這邊特別說明清楚包括其他委員會包括民進黨的召委如果不能主持會議也是指定代理就可以來主持那我們很遺憾那一次本席確實是因為身體稍有不適所以請黃建斌委員代為主持但是很"},{"start":3127.176,"end":3131.557,"text":"12月18日沒有偷偷開會。本期在13點48分當天會議結束前有在議場宣告延長會議,所以我們後來"},{"start":3154.334,"end":3172.765,"text":"這個看到欸可以開會了沒有主席台沒被霸佔了但是不在的離開的是民進黨的委員所以這個會議並沒有偷偷這個是公開而且也是有錄影轉播都非常的清楚好接下來好像黃婕委員要發言是吧好請黃婕委員"},{"start":3184.69,"end":3192.992,"text":"好主席在座所有的同仁各位媒體朋友大家早安我還是要針對12月16號跟12月18以及12月19這三天的會議來還原一下這個事實因為我們認為這三天都屬無效會議無效會議違法會議為什麼呢"},{"start":3206.335,"end":3220.286,"text":"回顧一下12月16早上發生什麼事情。剛剛張偉說是因為民進黨委員杯葛所以我們沒有辦法正常開會。大家別忘了當天早上我們民進黨的委員是連進都進不來。進都進不來。不只我們。官員也進不來。"},{"start":3225.009,"end":3225.629,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":3250.171,"end":3273.161,"text":"我們連會議室都進不來何來杯葛之說呢?我們連簽到都沒有辦法簽到又何來阻擋之說呢?所以我再次要強調16月16號當天屬於無效的違法會議這也是立法院史上破天荒第一次沒有辦法讓委員進到會議室來連簽到都沒辦法簽到就說這樣的開會算數"},{"start":3279.402,"end":3306.374,"text":"請問這是什麼極權國家才會出現的會議狀況自導自演的假開會所以拜託12月16號這種封鎖國會的現象不要在立法院再次上演也希望大家認同我相信所有的民眾在看也都認為說當天的會議怎麼會算數呢甚至我看很多網友都還說他們連開班會都還比我們有秩序"},{"start":3307.352,"end":3308.334,"text":"連開學生的會議、開區選會都比我們了解議事規則就因為國民黨的委員"},{"start":3315.748,"end":3339.719,"text":"不了解議事規則,把立法院應該是大家的典範的一個會議現場搞到如此這般的田地,其實也蠻丟臉的。所以希望大家必須要知道12月16號這樣的惡例絕對不能讓它發生。萬一這樣子的例子一開,未來是不是我們只要一群人手牽手躲在角落告訴大家我們來開始開會了。"},{"start":3341.42,"end":3342.441,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":3361.734,"end":3382.028,"text":"讓我們內政委員會變成是八個委員會裡面進度最慢直到現在都還沒有進行客委會的詢答怎麼會進度這麼慢?大家有問說我們交委不是也是客家鄉親出身嗎?不是客家立委的代表嗎?怎麼讓客委會的預算省得這麼慢?"},{"start":3383.169,"end":3401.49,"text":"就是因為在前面多次的排程裡面召委都只排了選罷法都只排了選罷法代表說國民黨始終把政治的議程放在民生的議程之前始終認為這一些為了保護自己的這種選罷法修二"},{"start":3402.651,"end":3403.753,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":3419.085,"end":3439.101,"text":"讓大家看到這會期選罷法休二卻都還沒有看到客委會的預算被好好審查這就是現在內政委員會的現況我必須要把這些真實的情況讓所有的全國民眾都知道那除了12月16號12月18號大家也不要忘記當天是什麼情況當天"},{"start":3442.129,"end":3459.664,"text":"1時多,距離散會只剩下12分鐘,然後交委帶著一群國民黨的委員進到會議室,吵吵鬧鬧,然後甚至連會議狀態都寫著會議尚未開始,他們又出去了。到了2點,在場的官員跟我們都理應認為"},{"start":3461.465,"end":3478.089,"text":"午10時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至午11時至"},{"start":3480.51,"end":3485.234,"text":"過了兩點,張偉又帶著國民黨的委員偷偷的進到會議室說要開會。這難道不是假開會嗎?為什麼開會需要偷偷摸摸的?在兩點之後會議都已經散會了,才進到會議室來開會。那還怪說,官員怎麼沒有來備詢?因為兩點都散會啦!"},{"start":3501.887,"end":3527.895,"text":"三會之後你才叫官員來備詢你難道是在霸凌公務員嗎要求大家要配合你們加班叫你幾點開會來你就來開會不連開會通知上面寫的都不算數難道是這樣嗎所以12月18號我也主張這是一個無效的違法會議所以拜託大家我們在這邊民進黨委員有一個共同的提案希望等一下可以照這樣的"},{"start":3529.295,"end":3553.311,"text":"提案來通過讓大家知道說12月16號跟12月18號這樣子的惡例包括封鎖國會包括偷偷開會這種情況都不應該在立法院發生絕對不能讓立法院變成史上最丟臉開下最多惡例的一個民主程序好所以希望等一下就可以大家來認同這樣的議事錄不予確認謝謝"},{"start":3558.601,"end":3572.589,"text":"好謝謝黃捷委員本席也要在這邊回應很多事情凡事都有前因跟後果黃捷委員講的全部是講那個結果他沒有講這個前因什麼是前因"},{"start":3573.65,"end":3599.155,"text":"我們的會議一再的被干擾選罷法只要有召委牌民進黨就是杯葛所以不要忽略這點不要忽略這點這個選罷法上個會期兩次完全沒有開成那這個會期從第一次也就被杯葛沒有辦法開成嘛所以這個意識要往前"},{"start":3600.322,"end":3601.683,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":3619.493,"end":3644.502,"text":"這個會期本席一定要再次強調前面是因為行政院的預算還沒有附委所以我們開了一些法案各方面的審查那行政院的這個預算附委之後是剛好輪到張宏祿召委輪值所以他先排接著每一周本席都有排預算審查"},{"start":3645.302,"end":3673.325,"text":"我排預算審查但是我們都被干擾被霸佔主席台沒有辦法順利開會所以我們也是想盡辦法本席也覺得很好奇現在立法院立法委員要開會我們還要想盡各種辦法才能開會因為有太多的阻撓跟干擾再來12月18日行政院業務報告預算報告的"},{"start":3675.319,"end":3704.078,"text":"那天我們來到這裡因為前面就是整個會場被霸佔那我們覺得這個確實預算審查各方面尋答我們覺得能開會我們還是要想辦法開會原本定在2點是因為我們覺得順利進行2點以前應該可以結束但是沒想到前面主席台也被霸佔所以我們在一點多回來我們一宣告開始開會"},{"start":3706.222,"end":3731.698,"text":"在場的民進黨委員就開始吵鬧但是錄音都有錄到本席宣告開會然後宣告會議延長所以議事人員他們都是合乎議事規則我們在進行所有我們都合乎議事規則我們也希望民主的程序少數服從多數多數尊重少數不要因為不合自己的意就"},{"start":3733.131,"end":3736.376,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":3753.478,"end":3777.013,"text":"好謝謝主席今天我們現在在討論是針對第二會期內政委員會第17次的這個議事錄要不要確定所以第17次也就是狀況比較混亂早上主席台北公站然後後來開到延長開會時間那一場那我們就先從這一場會議的本質來做還原那早上這剛我們黃捷委員講說這個班會都比這個立法院有秩序"},{"start":3777.393,"end":3791.394,"text":"這我們倒是不能否認但是我們也必須要強調辦會也沒有政黨政治恐怕也沒有朝野惡鬥辦會的小朋友比較純真應該也不會霸占主席台所以他當然比較有秩序對不對那我們回到回到這場會議的本質"},{"start":3794.434,"end":3813,"text":"早上的時候當然因為霸佔的關係沒有辦法開會其實我們早上的時候我們都非常清楚今天就是來開會的只要民進黨願意讓出主席台任何時間我們都會回來開會這是我們一早就講的那當然嘛這個僵局協調也未果這個霸佔的狀況一直持續那當然一點多因為我們希望無論如何這個會議可以順利的進行嘛"},{"start":3815.921,"end":3829.488,"text":"1點48分左右,快要離法定快要散會的前12分鐘。我們做好了決定,我們就要來進行延長開會時間。那場面當然是非常混亂,但是召委在台上的後方,拿著內政委員會的麥克風,1點48分"},{"start":3834.59,"end":3859.444,"text":"17秒應該1點48分13秒這個進來宣布開會那這個東西其實是有在整個的意識系統裡面被清楚的收音現場很多委員可能不見得有聽到但是大家過去以來處理這種爭議的方式基本上就是看看到底有沒有收進這個意識系統的這個聲音裡面這是大家行之有年的規矩那有收到那收到之後當然這個會議就是合法的開始合法的開始之後就是處理所謂的延長開會時間動議當然"},{"start":3862.065,"end":3874.349,"text":"我們在講延長開會時間因為那天場面很混亂我們今天就很客觀來談這件事情場上到處都是噪音可是第一個我們在旁邊我們都非常清楚有聽到趙偉有提出了這樣子因為國民黨團有提了這個動議延長開會時間動議趙偉有提了這個動議進行處理"},{"start":3878.49,"end":3879.431,"text":"午10時至午11時至"},{"start":3896.463,"end":3916.095,"text":"通過之後趙偉才喊了休息這件事情就通通在這個議事系統裡面通通都有非常清楚的錄音那議事人員沒有第一時間做確認的原因我們後面來做確認我也可以在這邊做一個還原當然就是因為會場的狀況非常吵鬧所以他到了隔壁安靜的會議室去重新聽了這樣子的一個聲音之後確定有收到之後所以大概在2點15分左右這個會議就變更變成通過了延長開會動議到法定時間的這個12點"},{"start":3921.138,"end":3944.167,"text":"這個事情我想不管是當天的這個議事系統或者是這個議事委員都可以作證那我想包括民進黨委員在內他們自己都可以作證因為大概到了3點多的時候這個我們在外面守議場黃介委員還打開窗戶要我趕快回來開會對不對我當初有大聲的回應我說只要你們讓出主席的話我一定回來開會這件事情我們都說到做到啊因為大概到了4點鐘的時候當然也許你們去參加協商或什麼的"},{"start":3945.327,"end":3966.815,"text":"有的時候大家會議撞期的時候本來就可以自己決定要參加哪一場這個是立法院的常態但是如果你們既然離開了你們只要離開主席台我們也不能失信於人所以在4點的時候我們就回來繼續進行這場法定會議的程序今天為了趕快不要耽誤客委會預算的審查我們就先不追究行政院秘書長為什麼可以擅自離席或者是自己離開這個我們後面再說但是我想"},{"start":3968.016,"end":3980.509,"text":"從議事紀錄還有當天狀況的一些還原包含委員彼此之間的一些互動都可以再再的證明17次的會議因素有效所以我們希望這個會議錄可以合法的來進行確認以上謝謝好謝謝那我們是不是就確認議事錄請張宏祿委員 張昭偉"},{"start":3997.028,"end":4022.206,"text":"啊,召委各位委員,其實啊我們也不是像小學生啦那我們啊齁我覺得我們也可以跟小學生學習啦齁我只有一個就是說啊齁在上次的這個會議當中啊我們很多的委員都有來但是沒有辦法簽到在會議這個議事錄裡面上面登記的是沒有來開會"},{"start":4024.207,"end":4034.751,"text":"但這一點如果我們在學校這是要被激況課欸但我們確實有要進教室沒有辦法進去欸我覺得不管醫事工房或怎麼樣我覺得這一點"},{"start":4036.348,"end":4043.691,"text":"我們還是必須要處理啊你可能在議事錄上或什麼應該要寫明一下這個這個至少要留下記錄不能說我們的民進黨所有委員那天就是沒有來這邊開會我覺得這一點我們必須要把它處理啦所以這一點我想啊齁這個可能趙偉啊你要確定議事錄之前啊這一點我覺得我們應該把它處理一下"},{"start":4068.021,"end":4070.404,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":4080.043,"end":4103.826,"text":"因為張昭偉因為我也都一直有排預算案結果一直不讓我開會不讓我審查我們也是吞下去啊然後還不斷的一直在媒體還包括剛剛黃姐委員都說我不排預算其實我都排排了我都幾次不能審啊我一次又一次不能審查昭偉昭偉"},{"start":4105.988,"end":4128.093,"text":"我覺得啦我覺得啦吼這一個我剛已經說了吼各有立場吼好不好但我覺得這一個大家有來吼我們就像去學校啊我有來上課你被寄的礦課那個這個你的抄信你的什麼成績就就不對了啊啊但是事實是有來啊沒有辦法進來這個也是事實"},{"start":4129.913,"end":4143.597,"text":"我們要在那個議事錄裡面是不是也要把他這個寫一下看怎麼委員或是要怎麼寫至少要留下一個紀錄才不會對有來開會的委員這點有點不公平我覺得這個是我們內政委員會"},{"start":4147.939,"end":4163.489,"text":"應該也要替所有內政的委員這個他的權利我覺得我們應該也要去兼顧我覺得我如果是召委如果遇到這種事情我也會兼顧其他的委員的一個權利不能讓他留下一輩子的紀錄就變這樣"},{"start":4168.442,"end":4189.036,"text":"好呃我想不管是當天的轉播或公報都有一些記錄了那立法院各式各樣的政治攻防這個對的不是不是所以我的意思就是說這個立法院的政治攻防本席這個不是本席的權責我接著請高金素梅委員來發言"},{"start":4194.614,"end":4209.227,"text":"實際上我本來不太想發言的但是呢我認為就是說在立法院這麼長久以來如果大家記得上個會期我排法案的時候兩次都不讓我們上去主持會議你們還把大門關起來"},{"start":4211.048,"end":4232.791,"text":"這也是都有的事情啊那剛剛那個張昭偉說你擔心這個議事錄上面沒有你的名字簽到其實呢我們都清楚知道內政委員會就在紅樓的幾樓如果你早上沒有辦法開會的話你5點以前只要去簽到那邊就有您的名字存在了"},{"start":4233.411,"end":4262.083,"text":"所以我覺得這個張宏祿委員張召委我們都是比較資深一點的委員你應該都知道嘛有一些如果是早上沒有辦法來開會的話我們還是可以到內政委員會裡面去拿那張單子來簽名表示你已經有報到了第二是當天的情況透過全國的媒體大家都清楚知道議場裡面發生了什麼事情有沒有人在推擠有沒有人在幹嘛我相信媒體都看得一清二楚"},{"start":4262.563,"end":4264.023,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至"},{"start":4297.971,"end":4314.681,"text":"這個大家都知道議事的程序啦,高金委講的也是沒有錯,但那一天我們如果要去補簽到的話,那一天他的會議已經是結束了,他是會議結束了,所以你會議結束我們去,那一天的情況是比較特殊啦,所以我才會這樣講,謝謝。"},{"start":4318.416,"end":4329.808,"text":"對對那天真的很特殊只要碰到選罷法我們內政委員會都很特殊所以我們現在是不是就來確認議事錄這邊當然我們也可以先確認一下民進黨委員有一個動議那我們是不是請議事人員先宣讀"},{"start":4342.649,"end":4357.636,"text":"針對12月16日中國國民黨立法委員為剝奪人民罷免權之公職人員選舉罷免法修正,竟違法阻止其他立法委員列席行政官員及大眾傳播媒體進入會議室,違反公開舉行會議規定,剝奪其他立法委員就審查議案進行大體討論,"},{"start":4358.55,"end":4385.759,"text":"主條討論等表達意見提出異議或附議之權利違反立法院職權行使法立法院各委員會組織法及立法院議事規則第4章至第7章所定之開會法定程序。會議無效並應予嚴厲譴責復本院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議違反立法院議事規則第27條規定之法定延長會議程序。預議是日程排定時間之會議時為違法無效。然此本次會議議事錄顯有錯誤應不予確定。"},{"start":4388.26,"end":4406.032,"text":"提案人張宏祿、李博毅、王美惠、黃潔、蘇巧、惠吳、齊銘。宣讀完畢。好,請問在座的委員有關民進黨委員的這個提案有沒有意見是否要通過?反對。那我們是不是就不予通過呢?表決。提議表決。那我們就採用舉手表決。採用舉手表。"},{"start":4416.834,"end":4417.855,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":4438.986,"end":4454.617,"text":"本席丁學中委員反對、徐宇貞委員反對、張志倫委員反對、牛許廷委員反對、黃建斌委員反對、麥義貞委員反對、高金素美委員反對。贊成者請舉手。"},{"start":4456.263,"end":4475.478,"text":"張宏祿召委贊成黃潔委員贊成王美惠委員贊成蘇巧惠委員贊成李柏毅委員贊成吳祁銘委員贊成反對者多數此案不通過本席想再次確認我們第17、第18次會議議事錄有無錯誤無錯誤我們就議事錄確定"},{"start":4483.729,"end":4508.869,"text":"好接著我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。二、審查客家委員會函送財團法人客家公共傳播基金會114年度預算書案。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":4514.394,"end":4538.745,"text":"好,那我們首先來介紹在場的委員以及列席的官員。在場有徐宇貞委員、張志倫委員、劉許廷委員、黃建斌委員、麥玉貞委員、高金四美委員、張宏祿昭委、黃婕委員、王美惠委員、蘇巧惠委員、"},{"start":4541.51,"end":4562.07,"text":"好,我們在場列席的官員有客委會的主委谷秀飛主委還有副主委范佐明副主委還有我們各單位的主管本席就不一一介紹那接著還有財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長"},{"start":4564.794,"end":4579.898,"text":"陳邦枕董事長以及財團法人公共電視文化事業基金會客家電視台台長向聖岩台長。接著還有行政院主計總處公務預算處的專門委員李易柔專委。現在進行報告請客家委員會股主任委員秀飛報告。"},{"start":4601.625,"end":4623.28,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位朋友、大家安座、大家好。今天我用心收到邀請來列席各位委員會報告114年度本會及所屬客家事務、施政、計劃和預算。希望主席和各位委員的自告和支持,本會任務將做得順利來推動。第二,希望主席及各位委員來表達您們的建議和請求。"},{"start":4631.946,"end":4635.591,"text":"本次會議要落實內政總統的客家六項公共客家、國際客家、飲食客家、餐飲客家、沖繩客家、企業客家政見希望提供、規格、希望工廠的推進"},{"start":4648.666,"end":4674.822,"text":"緊急客家基本法及二年發財法的精神和出權主流發言者。四、繼續複製行業、存用客家文化、推動客家企業發展、強化客家強硬公共參議。五、實施批資政府執念提供運用效益。一、一百二十四年度預算書本以及六十年度預算的精神。"},{"start":4677.011,"end":4685.318,"text":"緊急檢察事理檢討現有的業務：來省監非必要的非正式效益的工作項目：同時來同盤檢討現下實證計劃執行程序。四、國庫醫生執念有效整合發揮最高的效益。114年醫生的辨知前嫌"},{"start":4701.977,"end":4707.699,"text":"緊急時針目標以及預算儲備認證。本會議及所屬114年度稅儲預算中窮變略。市市審議7000均364000元。上告113年度增加市議22278000元。太陽10.7%。"},{"start":4726.496,"end":4733.699,"text":"以下就114年度預算編列情形進行兼容報告請國會委員執政。項目部分114年度編列6,734萬包括批從項目50萬"},{"start":4747.915,"end":4754.619,"text":"考試報名費350萬、重提實施費用230萬、租金數額1300萬及雜控數額8804萬。稅出部分一百二十四年度稅出預算經濟本費市政目標及行政院協定的總長程計劃。"},{"start":4770.629,"end":4789.068,"text":"中央編列73一七千空三十六萬四千元,上告一百一十三年度比告增加十一兩千兩百一十七萬八千元,太陽時的百分之四點七。主要的內容跟增加感受的情況。"},{"start":4791.164,"end":4806.548,"text":"二、建議總統客家政策行政院規格希望工廠及客家基本法鼓勵客家強硬投入沙非服務工作。一、一二三千七百一十一萬八千元攀離客家出權主流化發展計劃。"},{"start":4812.87,"end":4830.468,"text":"正財主流法通指示主流法金幣最高113年度增加6,688萬7千元,它又是增加百分之二十。主要會判理白宮政府贊強勇、空窮勇以及貴既強硬資金富裕。"},{"start":4833.208,"end":4840.19,"text":"四、為了增添客家創新發展基礎,促進客家生涯和公共發展,誘發客家生涯及公共環境,迅速採取文化體制。一、審查新年度編列1119,361萬8千元判例。"},{"start":4855.034,"end":4867.759,"text":"客家重申及返金揚酬計劃。最高113年度增加617,657.8萬元,同時增加30.2%。主要在推動客家審判交流中心政策,部署提供政府經濟客家機密需求,提升公共設施空間品質及機能。第三,經濟行政院客廳"},{"start":4884.925,"end":4905.314,"text":"貴家委員政體發展方案,繼續提升客家使用衣食及六色衣繩法,擴大同行客家使用床位,鼓勵提供政府同民間單位,以客家提供公共服務。114年度編列713,751萬8千元,判例客家委員審測計劃。"},{"start":4914.304,"end":4939.17,"text":"上午113年度增加2,595萬4千元,還有是增加3.6%。主要提升行為與同行為以及行為服務普及法相關措施,協助提供政府累積行為服務能量,強化民主共和意識等相關計劃。"},{"start":4941.651,"end":4964.245,"text":"為了推動賴總統客家6件之公共客家除了增加正式行為高層外延續從事行為醫療同行為營養治療庫同時進行合法屬於對應技術以及行為體育醫療及教學現場的應用內容開發鼓勵國際的條件行為的數位運用"},{"start":4972.042,"end":4984.613,"text":"四、為了年期客家委員會以及提升客家委員會年齡114年度編列31,835萬3千元。三、在客家委員會發展計劃最高113年度增加2,493萬9千元。還有是增加7.9%。主要是因爲條件"},{"start":5000.828,"end":5002.511,"text":"總統的客家政見以及規格、客家發展計劃、鼓勵、強硬、投入、客家存益、傳承。"},{"start":5010.687,"end":5034,"text":"2月11日客家演藝術新力量攀起客家效盛推廣。十、及其代表性的編劇、導演及傑出的客家演藝術工作者,共同來批出代表客家文化的客家客套,推動客家創意用戶的發展。五、肥料特徵"},{"start":5038.1,"end":5047.028,"text":"客家傳播經驗主流私從114年度編列審議一七千四百五十一萬四千元判理客家傳播行事計劃。上個113年度增加一億九千九百九十九萬三千元。"},{"start":5056.836,"end":5064.858,"text":"太陽市增加18.6%。主要是因為內總統的政見國際客家提供導演、議員、導演出權的價值,繼續推動客家社會媒體發展,獎勵部署客家導演、養殖員、女勇參資,協助客家文化、女勇力的再提升,"},{"start":5084.226,"end":5089.59,"text":"即合送一平坦直播客家內容生意提示的樣應節目。建立跨普遍支持體內強化客家文化內容生意發展。建立自創作、製作、審算、行銷等集團的樣式發展體內合作區分客家內容IP。"},{"start":5108.022,"end":5124.921,"text":"之不由則讓私營作品打出國際客流品牌文化現象,讓令客家文化行業注入傳播思想,批示國際客流風潮,提升客家文化能見度。"},{"start":5126.554,"end":5134.257,"text":"六、為了強化客家文化延期財體連結與國際交流114年度編列315798萬6千元攀離客家文化生產接歸"},{"start":5143.061,"end":5147.324,"text":"月期2點幾分,最高113年度增加6.2%。主要判例南北延期建物,實施因應生命主義及公共安全,進行推翻、更新。"},{"start":5164.571,"end":5171.253,"text":"以及託贊客家委員會函送的措施,研究調查、暫時交流以及關機合作。七、為了達到當後的實證目標,協助客家事務推展114年度"},{"start":5184.477,"end":5192.863,"text":"其他基本行政的工作位置、交通運輸設備以及公共建設經費編列31,318,257,000元。最高113年度函收1,030,100,000元。"},{"start":5215.918,"end":5226.363,"text":"最後,本次會議中行政委員會提供各個議員整體發展方案,持續議中各個客家發展計劃、合作的機制,整合各部分職員、分工合作,內同心推動行業創新、復振和發展。"},{"start":5238.889,"end":5243.235,"text":"全面提升國家對客家的認識和審訊,讓出共客有身份金,打出以及獲准負起空用的消費。"},{"start":5255.12,"end":5261.427,"text":"牽扯拜託主席及國會委員現金對本費114年度預算全力支持,預算報告增強國會委員職高並增強繼續支持本費。神門太監暗自私羅勒感謝。"},{"start":5275.336,"end":5290.709,"text":"上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時"},{"start":5301.598,"end":5317.045,"text":"30分截止發言登記。因為今天預算處理本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見?沒有的話我們接下來就進行詢答請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員"},{"start":5327.998,"end":5330.919,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請鼓主委好請主委主委好主委好那我想我們這次在研究客委會114年度的年度施政目標的時候看到許多的計畫都跟青年是有相關的那首先我是表示支持我想主委我們在的"},{"start":5353.467,"end":5365.662,"text":"地方很多時候很多場合都看到您親自出席這個客家社團所以我也在地方的時候就直接跟您表示那也很高興獲得你正面同意我認為現在其實最能夠傳承地方客家"},{"start":5370.928,"end":5390.498,"text":"最能夠傳承客家文化的其實是在地的社團而在地的社團當中如果能夠跟青年事務有關係甚至是跟兒童兒少有關係的這種計畫我們都應該要大力支持主委你在現場的時候都表示肯定那今天在備訓台這邊的話你可以再簡單闡述一下你的看法嗎"},{"start":5392.178,"end":5393.239,"text":"感謝委員,沒錯,因為我們一直說客家、客家文化要純純,有純就有純,純一定是年紀是太重皮,純一定是我們年輕人的聲音,所以我們在時政計劃底部"},{"start":5411.727,"end":5417.873,"text":"為針對強硬、按著力的提防也要按捐贈人、兼容的、情緒的部分也要按捐贈。那主委你可不可以具體跟我們說明一下舉例舉例在你的計畫當中在你的編列的預算當中有哪幾項就可以直接跟青年有關係甚至是鼓勵各個社團針對這些來提出方案的"},{"start":5436.475,"end":5439.037,"text":"我們在強言的部分,我們為來潘莉重返客座,就是鼓勵候選的多幾多次的客座提案,安慰候選人都可以,沒有限制他們的內容。"},{"start":5456.867,"end":5458.207,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":5474.333,"end":5492.409,"text":"上午9時至下午9時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時"},{"start":5493.93,"end":5515.144,"text":"這樣子講下來已經有非常非常多的計劃我也非常的樂見所以第一你把這個計劃看是公告在哪裡因為我是等於是提出一個方向喔我說的是在我們的社團當中以客家社團了因為你也同意最能夠延續這個我們客家文化的其實是地方的熱心社團所以我們同意要給客家社團大力的補助這你同意嘛對不對這第一個目前已經整堆全團了沒錯"},{"start":5523.41,"end":5529.616,"text":"對,您已經這樣說了。很好。而且再進一步而言對於社團裡面願意做青年的你還願意更大力的補助同時又對青年也開了這樣的計畫這些都沒有問題嘛對不對所以第一個麻煩您告訴我們這個正確的資料也告訴我們在客委會這邊哪裡可以比如客委會的網頁上面可以直接看出來這個是我本席對你的第一個要求啦沒有問題吧好主委"},{"start":5548.854,"end":5563.421,"text":"目前會供考的資訊這是第一個沒有問題但第二個我就請教您所以這些計劃都是客委會來製作來編列來把這個計劃構想出來的是客委會沒有錯嘛地方政府有這個"},{"start":5567.063,"end":5571.045,"text":"如果是叫每一個地方政府來做的話這你認為適合嗎?他應該是共同來做但是重點是我們的青年應該是不分全國哪一個縣市他都應該能夠有同樣的資源同樣的機會在同樣的方向之下去得到這些資源我這個概念應該也沒有錯吧"},{"start":5595.956,"end":5598.498,"text":"對全台灣的青年公平的狀態。對全台灣的客庄青年公平。這問題也沒有問題嘛對不對?也沒問題。好那接下來那我就請教主委了。主委你知道我們上個禮拜上上個禮拜剛通過新的財政收支劃分法對不對?好"},{"start":5625.48,"end":5644.47,"text":"財政收支劃分法我們現在如果新法通過執行之後一次會從中央拿走將近3700多億的預算3700多億的預算是一個什麼樣的概念呢以中央部會來講的話最多的其實是國防部4700億那再來就是衛福部跟教育部大概是3700和3600"},{"start":5647.432,"end":5648.734,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":5663.156,"end":5669.119,"text":"消失的預算,這也沒有問題嗎?對不對?所以主委我的問題是那你客委會受到多少影響?你估算過了沒有?20%喔?"},{"start":5684.646,"end":5686.428,"text":"主委你沒有講我們還不知道影響這麼多那可是我再繼續看下去因為我們自己看"},{"start":5701.224,"end":5722.272,"text":"我們現在新通過的法律還說呢那如果我們的計劃裡面分成一般型計劃一般型的預算跟一般性的預算跟計劃型的預算那一般性的他還說不能夠比前一年少所以看起來能夠影響的就是計劃型的經費囉好那你回到地方政府來看我覺得這有一點可怕"},{"start":5724.733,"end":5737.043,"text":"因為客家委員會所有的計劃型補助都是跟地方型相關的而且我回去看我們新北市政府客家事務局的預算我們114年舉例來講我們的稅務預算是4160萬元可是我們從中央拿到的補助及協助收入是多少是3817萬通通都是來自中央型的補助及協助收入你細看下去"},{"start":5754.016,"end":5769.632,"text":"其實就是全部都是計劃型的預算啊計劃型的補助所以等於114年如果我們按照現在通過的財化法新的財化法來講的話我們九成的預算有可能會受到影響啊主委"},{"start":5770.293,"end":5785.439,"text":"那不要說我們剛剛一開始講的所有全國的青年不應該因為他所在的縣市不同未來得到的補助方式不一樣甚至是連地方政府的預算"},{"start":5786.019,"end":5805.431,"text":"其實看起來都會受到大大的影響我們未來好像看起來多了新北市370億但我們從光是從客委會得到的計畫型補助很有可能就少了很多你剛剛說少三成嘛平均每個縣市如果都公平的少三成那我們不得了我們要怎麼運作啊"},{"start":5806.351,"end":5822.262,"text":"這個是很大的問題,請問你們跟地方政府有討論過了嗎?未來怎麼因應?目前很忙討論,不過人家的百分之一是擺在感受,會感受到同樣的期間,要有的推動,不出提防政府跟沙團都會影響那個全面性的"},{"start":5823.743,"end":5850.821,"text":"各位我覺得這是一個很嚴肅的問題法律通過當然現在立法院就是我們尊重少數服從了多數服從多數通過的法律到底會產生什麼樣的後續影響其實現在正要開始所以我想這個問題既然我們這個上週這個才化法已經這樣通過了現在到底有沒有要附屬有沒有要附議等等那當然還不知道可是"},{"start":5851.741,"end":5852.522,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":5871.755,"end":5891.551,"text":"配套能夠進行的好。主委,這部分可以吧?你們應該要立即開始進行討論吧?我們要等待行政院有民國的指示以後,我們就要下去跟提防政府下去。主委,加油啦。這是一個很大很大的問題。希望你們要好好討論。好,感謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝蘇喬惠委員。接下來請張宏祿召委。"},{"start":5910.322,"end":5912.824,"text":"來請主委好請主委總召委主委我們有一個計劃客庄地方創生移居計劃這個也已經施行了兩三年了你個人這一段時間你認為他執行的效果如何"},{"start":5935.799,"end":5939.121,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案"},{"start":5958.695,"end":5975.674,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":5976.092,"end":5990.279,"text":"它這個有一點暫停有一點這個到底是成效不好還是看不出來希望呢?主要是因為演藝書不流行,所以帶出來的好意其實也有限啦因為全國這樣分散在二、三人的目的所以我們明年要開100個100個名額來本州省的整個都提供"},{"start":6004.986,"end":6005.807,"text":"我個人認為啦吼"},{"start":6032.266,"end":6059.204,"text":"這一個會有這種的感覺是因為都是一個點一個點然後都是獨立的我不知道主委你知不知道其實客家莊啊比如說我們一舉一個台山縣好了上面客家莊也蠻多的對不對我們這個計畫就不能說有一個面一個縣再來一個點嗎"},{"start":6061.021,"end":6062.143,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":6075,"end":6101.121,"text":"主委你知道像國外有那種朝聖者之路有沒有西班牙西班牙西班牙法國這個朝聖者之路吸引全世界很多人去對對那你覺得我們客家莊我們之前也有這個張之繫道什麼等等的我們用這樣子我們也不要一次太多"},{"start":6102.219,"end":6117.455,"text":"我們以台山縣這樣子做一個整體的規劃然後來配合你們這個專案計畫你覺得這樣子會不會比一個點一個點然後沒有聚焦會比較好"},{"start":6118.012,"end":6140.094,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":6141.673,"end":6168.706,"text":"這個朝聖者之路他是去看廟去看教堂但我們也可以用這個概念我們整個這樣下來我們客家莊也有一些廟然後我們客家莊也有我們客家的生活體驗對不對然後也有美食你把宗教生活體驗美食把它全部放在一起"},{"start":6170.418,"end":6178.485,"text":"你覺得會不會有吸引我們先不要說國外的人你會不會覺得台灣的人如果你有把他這樣子會不會有人想要去體驗"},{"start":6179.908,"end":6182.949,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。"},{"start":6209.077,"end":6212.378,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於中央政府總預算案關於中央政府總預算案"},{"start":6230.502,"end":6231.002,"text":"午10時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":6250.208,"end":6251.349,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":6268.225,"end":6277.832,"text":"在海裏有一個小石頭在這邊休息,這樣子才有那個讓他成長茁壯的機會啊?主委你認為呢?我再回應一下,現在我們可以在今晚的客庄小旅行,在旅行,就是大家都,剛剛議員說的,我們在本地所有的幾個點,還有目前在合宗的七十個點,全部都要整個包裝起來。"},{"start":6296.721,"end":6322.577,"text":"好我為什麼要講這個計畫我認為很好但是他就是一百萬而已一百萬能撐多久如果你沒有整體的規劃下去我跟你講你這個阿會浪費掉啦阿但我覺得非常好可以讓年輕人返鄉去創業然後去做很多事情我覺得主委思考一下啦看我說的這樣子可不可行阿可行的話從這個方面去處理阿好不好嗯好感謝委員OK好"},{"start":6327.174,"end":6330.336,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":6351.69,"end":6362.016,"text":"主委在這我要收集一個意見給您這可能我看這個時間也很久了跟這個頻道因為可能我中午不平衡我每次看這個都會暈暈的不舒服那個好像是頻道因為我尊重你的意見你尊重我的意見好不好感謝你意見"},{"start":6381.382,"end":6384.128,"text":"謝謝主委在這本社的時間。"},{"start":6388.851,"end":6393.334,"text":"因為主委在這我要向您請教我們客家園區有兩個地方在這個過程當中我也很關心我們這個園區是要如何讓它可以好一點因為在我在關心的當中也有您給我的意見就是說我們可以"},{"start":6414.942,"end":6418.527,"text":"因為疫情差不多190年至181年。但是在這個規定當中今年已經183年的月了。但是我們都沒辦法"},{"start":6429.141,"end":6431.784,"text":"二、審查公共傳播基金會及所屬單位預算書案。三、繼續審查公共傳播基金會及所屬單位預算書案。"},{"start":6447.822,"end":6449.004,"text":"可以如何保證、收益及鼓勵我們客家的人、帶四大人或帶孩子去參觀也好,你有什麼機會來。"},{"start":6461.827,"end":6467.43,"text":"感謝委員我們兩位議員在美麗與平等我認為我們最主要還是要我們兩位議員所判的任務包括法庭、政難要有提示要有提示、要本、提訪人要有齊描、要有意義做得來"},{"start":6487.838,"end":6494.38,"text":"最主要的人。再來聽到要提防合作人,特別是我們講生態博物館,我們一定要...主委你知道我現在問這個問題,目前為止183年,這間有多少人去參觀嗎?目前那137..."},{"start":6512.811,"end":6513.171,"text":"午9時至午10時至午10時至午。"},{"start":6529.264,"end":6533.107,"text":"主委,我向您請教我們一件議事。第一,剛才財委也有說,客庄創生及環境營造的計劃當中,這是變到最後一年,最後一年你要變12億,第83年,"},{"start":6548.9,"end":6550.801,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於中央政府總預算案關於中央政府總預算案關於"},{"start":6563.154,"end":6567.417,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。四、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。五、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":6586.713,"end":6591.414,"text":"委員報告,所有的案都遭工廠侵吐行,目前只有香山的工廠案有控落,我聽說有工区的建設的推動費補來加強因為我認為這已經太慢了,我們這個工廠要加強"},{"start":6613.7,"end":6618.005,"text":"主委,在這客家議員發展計劃裡面,我委員會為自己說,待會兒,等會兒,明天、明天、明天、明天、明天、明天、明天、明天、明天、明天、明天、明天、"},{"start":6629.377,"end":6633.359,"text":"每年1月70至10日要在9月7日來表演。因為在這兩天我要跟主委探討的就是說在9月7日不要看過這個表演。非常的高興也感謝主委及所有的委員會到三天可以在9月7日來表演。"},{"start":6655.149,"end":6656.97,"text":"嚴告未來我們的議員是不是還要有家鄉的空間來請主委你回答一下感謝委員,我們委員會開行的法庭都被一個菸絲輪流判了當然像新北市有判過"},{"start":6675.104,"end":6683.89,"text":"法連、電電都判過。不管在行人過渡的素材,也在渡市的素材,我們很會討論,也拜託各位。未來我們也希望會培養客家的藝術團體,也在他們的訓練,訓練的功效做得到全台灣。因為主委,我是覺得說,議員這個區塊,你如果給他那麼多的資源,"},{"start":6703.723,"end":6709.407,"text":"無未來,我認為我們的客家的單位,這些年輕的客家的主管會越來越久。我認為這你要非常去了解一下,還有我們客家的時候的補助、的客製當中,你有看到越多費,口越好,要不然我們要補償國家的基金的時候,"},{"start":6730.402,"end":6732.885,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":6755.606,"end":6762.987,"text":"差不多75%至80%所以在這個問題要如何讓高齡年輕人去參加這個議案這是最重要的在這裡最後主席再給我一個時間我要跟主委說不說照顧戰在所有我們自己的長照"},{"start":6784.011,"end":6792.415,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":6812.985,"end":6816.966,"text":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央政府公共傳播基金會及所屬部分。"},{"start":6833.251,"end":6833.811,"text":"午10時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":6852.518,"end":6859.521,"text":"拜訪長照這個所在心事你會如何對客家委員會及這位客家委員來照顧來,你會回答這個問題。我們經常在跟提訪聯絡,因為要提訪就審查,經常我們不出判法就提出審查,要我們好好地聯絡。"},{"start":6878.561,"end":6901.578,"text":"沒有啦,主委我知道我們一個會議不是我們所有在這裡的委員去會議啦我知道是地方政府會議及他們沒有會議是不是你們可以拜託我們的審判人員在當地好不好,以上好,好,好,感謝委員謝謝,不好意思"},{"start":6904.585,"end":6923.399,"text":"每每每可以多講好接下來我們請張志倫委員那同時跟委員會報告我們等一下黃建斌委員尋答完之後休息5分鐘我們讓大家可以用用一下洗手間好好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請谷主委好強主委"},{"start":6935.867,"end":6935.987,"text":"總委員吼。"},{"start":6953.01,"end":6972.664,"text":"部會需刪減預算,以致來為客委會無法繼續支持全臺客庄的興建工程活動,包含已特別提出來臺中東勢客家文化園區修建及興建案以及苗栗明德水庫自行車道二期工程以及補助地方"},{"start":6974.145,"end":6991.539,"text":"附贈客語的獎助規劃以及地方藝人活動及團體的獎助補助經費。那你也特別提出你的客委會的預算會減少28%我想要請教主委這個12月20號財化法才通過禮拜五晚上凌晨"},{"start":6992.099,"end":7011.811,"text":"21日、22日、6日、23日只有一天的工作時間。結果你在24日馬上就算出來說你會減少28%的預算。讓我不禁覺得您非常的厲害。我都有點懷疑你未來有可能當這個主計長。所以是不是想要請教你,你如何算出來你是這個部會是減少28%?你有跟主計長討論過嗎?還是你容身主計長了?"},{"start":7016.973,"end":7018.674,"text":"今朝總委員會議宣判在客家委員會發展支出過後,經濟財閥法通過約3,000萬億,推估國庫費可能下降。"},{"start":7033.3,"end":7034.001,"text":"百分之二十八案項項項項項項項項項項項項項"},{"start":7056.698,"end":7082.199,"text":"不過我要跟主委報告今年還是我們政府有超收稅收5000多億所以我本席是認為其實這個財化法修法後中央其實還有9000億可以運用而且還不包含超收稅收5000多億所以我認為這客委會應該要平衡中央跟地方的財政不要去影響中央對地方的補貼請主委再瞭解"},{"start":7082.739,"end":7091.626,"text":"那我想要請教我剛剛請教主委的部分,我剛剛所提到這些三檢客庄的新建工程的部分是這個客庄369的計劃嗎?是嗎?那這樣客家創生繁殖養殖基物以及那支部門的部分"},{"start":7101.678,"end":7128.992,"text":"好那本席在這邊提醒主委齁其實這個客家36客庄369的計劃其實不只只有補助苗栗跟台中也有補助屏東跟高雄那我希望本席希望說你到屏東跟高雄的時候也要像照這個苗栗跟台中的部分去跟他們講一下他們到底會減少多少預算那本席也希望你在這邊承諾不只減少預算不能只挑台中跟苗栗應該各個部會"},{"start":7129.972,"end":7142.908,"text":"部會要去統整喔各個地區喔全台各個地區應該要對等的平均的減少相關的預算不能只減台中跟苗栗可以接受嗎?呃呃跟委員部重播過齁我會講藥糧的額內那個營費藥糧的額內呃經費一等台齁超過上億元齁"},{"start":7149.315,"end":7162.343,"text":"主委我了解您意思這經費比較大那你可以同意說全台各個你要補助客庄369的要均衡的去減少不能只減少台中跟苗栗的可以嗎所以你全台灣會等比例減少"},{"start":7167.466,"end":7168.507,"text":"本期要特別提出來這個你臉書的發文"},{"start":7184.053,"end":7207.3,"text":"最偏文章還特別請小編下來廣告那我知道你今天已經撤掉了所以現在已經撤掉我就不提了好OK那第二個本期要請教你有關於客家族群主流發展計畫的期程是109年到114年那我們可以看到這一張我們臺灣其實客語發展有個非常重要叫做國家客家發展計畫"},{"start":7208.3,"end":7222.06,"text":"最新的報告只有到110年到112年然後上次110年到112年的核定本是110年的6月15號讓本席很好奇的是我們現在台灣難道沒有國家客家發展計劃嗎?"},{"start":7224.543,"end":7231.987,"text":"113年的發展計畫在哪裡?來請主委解釋一下。我要請教主委,現在是113年的12月了。上次是在110年的6月15號就通過,你已經晚了,近6個月。那我要請教賴總統,難道113年,你新出的報告是要從113年開始,還是114年來開始?"},{"start":7251.8,"end":7257.983,"text":"我們已經完成了我請問你要回答我是從113年開始還是114年?114年那113年難道全台灣沒有國家客家發展計劃嗎?113年是空窗期嗎?應該是說113年以後有一個平台是369的發展平台故事一兩的我考慮改善合法來強化各界的發展"},{"start":7276.89,"end":7297.319,"text":"我為什麼要跟主委特別報告這件事國家客家發展計畫對全台灣的在客家發展非常重要因為裡面有編的很詳細的預算以及計畫以及執行情形可是我們現在看到的是在賴清德主政底下主委113年的計畫居然是空白繳了這個空白的成績單"},{"start":7298.419,"end":7324.984,"text":"所以我希望主委這一點要好好來檢討不然我們也不排除說這個您這邊要來推動客家發展計劃作此客家基本法的預算在研究的預算我們不排除來凍結甚至刪除這拜託主委好在接下來在持續的關係我再請教這個剛剛很多人提到這個博工114年的博工照護站的部分我要為所有我們所有客家鄉親來請益為什麼博工照護站的這個"},{"start":7326.164,"end":7351.223,"text":"能申請的比例調整了原本用客語溝通人數只要佔常住人口30%就可以了可是為什麼114年你們要改成這個比例要高達50%那這樣子我們經費大概有增加了快要300萬那這樣子申請門檻變高可是預算卻增加那我知道說你們一定會提說未來要改進加入什麼青年嘛對不對"},{"start":7351.883,"end":7357.065,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":7373.052,"end":7378.313,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":7400.219,"end":7422.993,"text":"好那沒關係我們本期會繼續來監督看說這樣子話整個比例希望不要下降太多能申請的人不要太少那最後時間的關係我再請教客委會我覺得最大的問題之一除了剛剛我們講的國家計劃法以外我認為沒宣費問題很大114年的客委會編的沒宣費是一億三千兩百一億三百二十九萬元"},{"start":7424.134,"end":7451.493,"text":"那比113年度的預算增加2300多萬元,比112年度的這個預算增加增加了3000多萬元,增加的比例非常的高。那本席跟主委報告,112年月客委會有辦這個世界客家博覽會,所以我沒宣費可以增加我可以理解,可是113年度我們總共的經費是6900多萬,主委你知道到11月的時候沒宣費花了多少錢嗎?"},{"start":7455.191,"end":7460.254,"text":"到113年11月的時候預算書是6900多萬請問到113年的11月就上個月讓你結帳花了多少錢你知道嗎目前6200萬左右我說到113年的11月底知道嗎"},{"start":7485.245,"end":7502.374,"text":"我要跟主委報告也跟所有委員報告的是你知道113年11月只花了3471萬你總共的預算是6900多萬你知道11月的時候11月底還花不到一半那我請教這沒宣費到底是什麼編出來的"},{"start":7503.833,"end":7526.289,"text":"因為因為有排程,有媒體的宣傳有排程,都是你的結案,結案的要由法律全部支付為款本送送。所以我要跟主委報告,沒宣費,尤其是我們所有委員非常重視,都是人民的納稅錢,到底有沒有浮標,所以你12月份的時候要花,我們沒宣費花將近3339萬。"},{"start":7530.225,"end":7557.586,"text":"當然一定有包含驗收可是我要請問政府的預算人民的納稅錢可以這樣花嗎全部預算一整年11個月份都不請款都不執行到12個月份的時候再大筆的沒宣費這樣去執行這樣去請款所以我要拜託主委的是我跟您報告你114年的預算是9000多萬要增加2000多萬我不希望說還有像113年這樣的執行跟運用跟請款情形可以嗎"},{"start":7558.414,"end":7581.713,"text":"昨天晚上我檢討他的付款啦。付款的期程、特兵、他的金額啦。英國的那幾年圖。幾年圖都最年代。對阿我們台灣有紅花季有非常多的節育阿。怎麼會到11月底的時候才花50%的錢。到12月份直接請款把最後人民納稅錢53000多萬一次給請款一次給花掉。"},{"start":7585.683,"end":7602.708,"text":"我光是作業期程也不會花那麼久的時間所以我要拜託主委114年度還增加更多增加到9200多萬所以本期不希望發生113年度我照最後一個月再消化預算的情形這樣可以嗎?因為那個財務人員要儲息行財務人員要付款的儲息行當然我們不可以跟所有的律師都在那邊我看他的財務人員的情況要付款"},{"start":7612.506,"end":7622.569,"text":"所以每個的執行平均都到12月才執行完畢嗎?所有的法庭都要到12月才執行完畢。好,謝謝主委,拜託以後不要再這樣子了,謝謝。好,謝謝張志倫委員。我們接下來請麥玉娟委員。"},{"start":7643.342,"end":7646.346,"text":"下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時至下午11時"},{"start":7653.946,"end":7664.43,"text":"主委好我要請教主委一下你知道在民進黨2012年民進黨主席蘇貞昌還有台南市長賴清德立法院黨團總召柯建民還有幹事長潘蒙安呼籲財政收支劃分法列為優先"},{"start":7683.177,"end":7687.881,"text":"審查法案。在2024年我們為了幫民進黨執行這個法案也是幫他們為民眾承諾已經承諾的法案我們是幫他們"},{"start":7703.683,"end":7706.284,"text":"法案通過。所以他說有效縮短城鄉貧富的差距這個就是當時在2012年的就民進黨說的他們的目標你是否認同?"},{"start":7722.619,"end":7737.312,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":7737.898,"end":7740.02,"text":"二、審查財政委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查財政委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":7761.135,"end":7763.637,"text":"所以你不認同你就是打臉他們他們當初就浪費時間來推這個法了所以當初我們國民黨不同意這個法通過是對的是嗎?所以他們就是要去用這樣子的法尊重尊重的也不是你才能來提評論的嘛"},{"start":7791.355,"end":7795.358,"text":"所以他們當初他們要去修這個法是為什麼當初客委會沒有覺得這個法不好呢他們也是大力的為我們的人民去承諾當時我們覺得他們這個會期我們覺得他們的法是很好所以我們就是幫忙他們就是把這個法通過但是我看你在2020"},{"start":7818.615,"end":7836.55,"text":"二十二月二十四在臺中在我們的旺子學校函修復工程的時候以及在苗栗參加客家文化文學花園的移轉儀式時公開表示"},{"start":7837.711,"end":7839.672,"text":"財化法通過,就是減少預算28到30%,並稱說未來中央無法再照顧地方政府,還有說這番言論具體含義是什麼?"},{"start":7853.197,"end":7856.442,"text":"如果客家委員會真的關心客家文化為何不提具體解決的方案而是選擇製造分支所以我覺得這個部分請客委會在中央"},{"start":7868.798,"end":7873.263,"text":"因具備高度的格級尊重地方的政府的要求財化法修正式讓地方的資源分別應用還有客家委員會要攜手地方推動文化的建設"},{"start":7886.737,"end":7890.118,"text":"現在我們要呼籲我們的客家委員會這一邊和政府不要干預我們的法案剛才你說你尊重但是你已經干預了所以將客家的族群不要把族群變成政黨的籌碼這個是會影響到我們的族群成為我們"},{"start":7912.083,"end":7915.284,"text":"政黨的鬥爭的工具。所以好,第二個,我要想請教你一下,我要想請教你一下,我要想請教你一下,對,但是你在去地方你要講的是客家的文化,客家委員會怎麼樣推動這些文化,不是要把財"},{"start":7936.192,"end":7938.015,"text":"財劃法在地方來變成你的演講的宣傳,這樣子的話會造成我們的族群的奮鬥。但是要去思思啦,因為我們都提防,要利用提防去做"},{"start":7951.556,"end":7953.777,"text":"所以剛才你說你不干涉你就還要提這個所以我想要問你現在你的專業的啦你現在應該要做的事情就是在我們114年度客家傳播行銷行動裡面你編列了"},{"start":7967.605,"end":7974.169,"text":"12億7千多但是在113年度只有10億7千多增加1億9千多但是我看這一筆錢增加有必要嗎?效果如何?有沒有達成你編列之前做得不好現在還增加那麼多這樣的效果又如何?如何提升客家文化在國際上的能見度?"},{"start":7996.244,"end":7999.647,"text":"還有我們如何將這個獎勵補助我們客家的影視音樂還有製作請問我們的主委你覺得你如何評估補助這個案子的效力才不會浪費我們的經費"},{"start":8016.424,"end":8034.755,"text":"跟貓咪嚴報告,我們客家出權那些看不到的,那些隱形的,因為對外表、對銀行的看,都是這樣。如果你覺得這個是隱形的話,客家傳播行銷計劃,這個是宣傳的,叫做隱形。如果你說隱形的話,貓咪嚴誤批我意思。這樣子的,我要問你,"},{"start":8044.241,"end":8045.842,"text":"在我們的…好,你講這樣子嘛,你講到我在問你第二題嘛,好,你先問,我要因為時間有限,你說隱形的看不到,或者其他,但是我要問你,客家委員會每年要投3億來推動學校科語學習計畫,"},{"start":8071.232,"end":8073.373,"text":"主委覺得這個執行的效果如何?學習的意願高嗎?還有我們客家人或者是一般學生對客家語聽說能力有多少?你覺得這個有效嗎?有多少?你有再去一方?"},{"start":8089.321,"end":8090.622,"text":"所以這個才是你要做的工作,不是要去干預說財化法怎麼樣怎麼樣,這個事情要解討,要怎麼樣去把這件事情去改善,你才要變一變一算。"},{"start":8114.901,"end":8115.121,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":8137.556,"end":8141.777,"text":"你該的工作你要跟人家說明你該的工作要去在地方先宣傳讓更多人去學習我們的客家語還有推廣文化還有新語言對所以困難你要解決這個困難啊如果困難你要不要做你解決這個困難要不要做"},{"start":8163.783,"end":8165.565,"text":"當然,所以我拜託委員會支持我們的醫生,因為醫生分歸到的項目一直都在推動我們就是因為很多的項目,但是這個項目你也做不好嘛,你要困難的要去在地方跟地方溝通的時候,"},{"start":8184.706,"end":8191.072,"text":"發言的時候應該要聽聽我們的地方如何去把這件事情做好。不只是學習的學習沒有達到我們的目標還有預算還有許多我們的學生還有老師還有我們的客家語的老師你覺得現在資源足嗎?"},{"start":8207.765,"end":8211.307,"text":"我相信貓委員剛才說過,幕後也要我們募銀團,因為居多地方,包括地方政府、鄉鎮公所也在說,我們的客家都在兼顧努力在推動,所以貓委員說幕後我們是服募募銀團,客家該努力,還有我們行商市都該努力跟我們的營業文化去共存。所以我才說你這個是主要的工作,我是要求說你主要的工作要你做。"},{"start":8235.123,"end":8237.704,"text":"主要的工作你要去報告說你們的預算你要主要的工作怎麼樣地方去合作還有我們的師資我們的師資如何讓大家來去有師資的足夠來配合各個學校來去推廣這樣的語言師資又不足大家學習意願也不足"},{"start":8260.734,"end":8260.954,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":8280.37,"end":8281.01,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":8305.661,"end":8315.869,"text":"帶風向還是要去跟著政黨的宣傳來去做你該做的職務。以上報告先。接下來請黃建斌委員。黃建斌委員質詢完之後我們就休息五分鐘。"},{"start":8332.253,"end":8335.554,"text":"謝謝主席,現在我們請谷主委。好,請主委。好,來,王明彥吼。主委好。主委,本席首先要針對我們12月19號我們內政委員會的狀況來表達本席的想法吼。因為一定在上上個禮拜我們內政委員會就可以針對我們客人會來進行這個預算的答詢吼。那接著就趕快把預算審完,那趕快來推動我們客家族群"},{"start":8360.283,"end":8386.809,"text":"委員會的一些政策。不過因為當天我們民進黨也霸佔了我們整個主席台,那原本應該要進行的會議沒有辦法來持續,讓諸位您本人以及許多在場的主管在這邊苦等一整天,造成我們議事的空轉,我想也造成客會還有行政觀點的時間的浪費。不過本席在這邊要肯定你,因為當天議事雖然被癱瘓,不過你還是很盡責的堅守在崗位上,等待立委的質詢。"},{"start":8388.149,"end":8398.779,"text":"我想這是身為部委員首長應該要有的一個態度我想不論我們立法院的公訪正常公訪是如何身為中央的行政長官你在預算的審查期間本來就應該要監守崗位"},{"start":8400.762,"end":8421.571,"text":"那做好準備,針對每項預算向我們立法院還有全國人民來說清楚到底我們人民的納稅錢要怎麼用,要用到哪裡去。那本期在這邊也要強調行政權要接受立法權的監督。部會首長接受質詢這是最基本最基本的憲政原則也是行政跟立法之間最基本的互動倫理。"},{"start":8422.714,"end":8445.563,"text":"不過我們行政院拱秘書長那天也做了一個非常非常不好的示範就當著大家委員會面就這樣子離開非常的傲慢所以這件我想除了要對股主委監督官會表達肯定以外我想也要譴責我們拱秘書長這個是待乎職守那兩位比較起來高下立判股主委的表現才是一個部會書長應該要有的一個態度"},{"start":8447.554,"end":8460.742,"text":"好接下來我想回到我們整個課會預算部分本期有幾點想要跟谷主委來就講齁那在114年之後課會的稅出高達43億7036萬那相較在113年我們預算增加了4億2217萬我們整個增加高達10.69%齁所以增加比例可以說是不少啦齁那"},{"start":8472.253,"end":8486.545,"text":"在客庄創生及環境營造計劃這個部分總計劃我們基本是6年高達53億元這是一個非常龐大的一個項目那114年剛好是計劃的最後一年那總共編列了12億元那裡面包括是業務費1億2461萬獎補助費10億"},{"start":8491.469,"end":8507.023,"text":"6千9百萬。本席認為計畫的最後一年應該是要仔細來盤點我們整個預算的執行成效的時刻,絕對不要為了要消化而亂花,因為這都是人民的納稅錢。那這邊本席要替我們台東來請命。"},{"start":8509.745,"end":8537.556,"text":"主委知道臺東的客家鄉親有4萬多人,占了整個臺東縣人口的五分之一,算是一個很大的族群。那我們在池上鄉,臺東縣池上鄉有一個臺東縣客家文化園區,這是由當時客會跟臺東縣政府共同投資興建。那我們縣政府現在目前積極地在招商來作業,希望透過這個委託管理的方式,結合我們客家的文化,不管是深入旅遊、特色露營或是文創聚落的體驗,"},{"start":8538.816,"end":8558.243,"text":"讓客家文化園區能夠真正能夠成為一個兼具文化教育確認功能的特色空間。讓我們整個園區的功能能夠更完善、更完備、更具有觀光魅力。在這邊我們根據客人會這個客庄創生環境營造計畫補助要點裡面我們的核心精神就是要振興客家文化特產業。"},{"start":8559.483,"end":8561.104,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":8571.949,"end":8591.789,"text":"在外面的年輕人能夠返鄉那本期這邊也希望說中央能夠看到偏鄉地區的資源的不足那挹注更多的經費來支持台東那也希望客人會能夠向相關的活動移居到時尚客家委員區來舉辦我想這真的可以是促進我們客庄創生環境這個營造"},{"start":8593.35,"end":8600.975,"text":"我們在客會114年預算裏面有一個叫議文傳播推廣的部分總共編列媒體政策及業務修正費高達9204萬相較在113年是增加2301萬增加高達33.3%"},{"start":8610.376,"end":8626.437,"text":"根據我們客會的說法是說因為這個增加預算主要是因為推動這個提升客家語言文化及聲望運用客語討論公共議題的計畫讓更多人可以聽見客語支持客家文化來傳承跟延續"},{"start":8627.759,"end":8634.384,"text":"本席絕對是支持這項的美意但你這個媒體政策宣傳費用在114年 112年的時候你計算數是5644萬那預算執行只有84.64%但是你在112年的時候你的預算就增加"},{"start":8647.312,"end":8667.907,"text":"6時3點8這是一件很奇怪的事情剛剛張志偉也提到你在去年的錢還沒有執行完的情況你明年又編更多的錢要花這讓人家會去懷疑說你預算到底有沒有浮邊的情況嘛我想人民的納稅錢不是這樣花啦那到底可以問我們的媒體的這個政策跟業務宣傳是用在哪裡"},{"start":8669.088,"end":8688.953,"text":"真的要宣傳我們客家文化嗎還是我們變成在支出特定的媒體的小金庫我想這個是很多委員都會質疑的地方那也希望各位接下來在我們預算的討論上能夠好好來說明那像我們委員會來說這個具體的成效會有大概相關的成效會到哪邊"},{"start":8689.793,"end":8718.491,"text":"我相信內政委一定會很理性針對這部分來好好檢討那這邊也要再次的拜託我們的谷主委就是從剛剛職選部分講到的臺東縣的資源相對是較少那我們客家族群其實是佔一個不小的人數我們也希望各位能夠多多益助、經費甚至活動的舉辦能夠在臺東縣讓花東地區的客家鄉親也能夠有機會來感受自己的這個文化以上謝謝主委感謝王委員"},{"start":8719.977,"end":8722.352,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":8796.608,"end":8798.409,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":8823.411,"end":8833.156,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":8845.598,"end":8851.46,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":8868.359,"end":8871.461,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":8885.7,"end":8889.902,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":8908.152,"end":8916.357,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。"},{"start":8931.691,"end":8942.416,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。"},{"start":8959.898,"end":8963.161,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":8983.968,"end":8991.535,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":9011.042,"end":9017.148,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":9032.501,"end":9037.284,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":9051.012,"end":9053.353,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":9080.151,"end":9090.694,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":9114.212,"end":9119.016,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":9137.652,"end":9156.725,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":9173.848,"end":9184.753,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":9205.596,"end":9215.48,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":9220.399,"end":9241.41,"text":"市長你好我想在上次的本來要審這個客家委員會的預算之後因為議事被杯葛所以今天算是正式的第一次審查那我想在雖然今天看到很多委員的提案有刪減或凍結客委會的預算但是等一下才會審查嗎所以並沒有目前還沒有這樣子的一個決議"},{"start":9243.371,"end":9262.389,"text":"相信客家委員會會積極地爭取所有這個委員的預算希望不要被凍結或者被刪除但是我想財化法通過之後谷主委對著媒體說中央接下來幾年都沒有辦法照顧地方尤其是那天不管到苗栗或到台中市政府的時候"},{"start":9263.03,"end":9279.08,"text":"希望爭取東勢客家園區的修建跟興建案。谷主委本人說口頭上已經答應了,那審查後也通過1.5億的預算。請問一下谷主委這筆預算會不會升變?那中央政府已經有下令要重編預算了嗎?要不然為什麼谷主委說會減少30%的預算?那如果沒有重編的問題,那為什麼要對媒體說這筆預算無法補助了?"},{"start":9287.526,"end":9287.746,"text":"請國際回答"},{"start":9303.847,"end":9329.91,"text":"主委,這個行政院有跟你們說要重編了嗎?目前還忙,也要先這樣整理。有告訴你喔,剛剛主席長陳淑芝已經在內政委員會有對媒體講沒有要重編預算的計畫,沒有。所以為什麼您在還沒有,中央都還沒有告訴你,行政院都還沒有告訴你,您就在地方上散播這樣的言論呢?那是主委您自己的意見,還是是行政院給你的?"},{"start":9330.65,"end":9332.751,"text":"我相信我們在議會上的財務法通過三千兩一的依算本提供,即使這樣通過,我們真實是會受到影響的陷阱。我想你可能知道"},{"start":9347.137,"end":9356.427,"text":"雖然說您是今年才上任可是您應該很清楚光過去3年我們的這個超徵的這個稅收就已經超過1兆3400億光今年我們講今年預估會超徵就5100億"},{"start":9363.394,"end":9379.718,"text":"所以拿來用這個財政稅務法通過之後的會增加的3753億回歸給地方其實這個金額就綽綽有餘根本不會影響到你中央的總預算那為什麼您當時就在地方上就講這樣的言論造成客家鄉親的一個恐慌嗎"},{"start":9382.199,"end":9385.021,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。"},{"start":9403.012,"end":9404.553,"text":"午10時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":9425.774,"end":9427.376,"text":"跟我們所有的客家鄉親道歉剛剛主席長已經講了"},{"start":9442.532,"end":9452.198,"text":"今年的預算不會重編,所以絕對也不會去影響到客委會的預算。所以您是不是該為這件事情不當言論,對我們客家鄉親道歉呢?希望以後還沒有定案的話,也希望谷主委在地方上不要去講這樣的言論好嗎?"},{"start":9468.487,"end":9485.98,"text":"立法院都預金。那以後就不用行政院啊,因為其實國主委就可以做決定,然後就不用行政院的要求。所以我覺得以後行政院還沒有通過還是希望國主委到地方上不要這樣子的不斷的聯論來引起客家鄉親的恐慌。接下來我還要問您下一題,就是我們客委會今年編列的預算,月進主流計畫有3億3844萬2千元。"},{"start":9494.895,"end":9497.018,"text":"比較113年度的預算數9025萬元增加1億1475萬6千增加的幅度高達127%那我們有查過111年度這個獎補助費的執行率才16.67"},{"start":9511.917,"end":9537.251,"text":"113年到8月底執行率也不過33.2%光執行率這麼低光今年的預算都花不完為什麼客委會還要在114年度還編列多增加了1億多政府高達百分之127的預算執行率這麼低要怎麼推廣客家的這個語言跟文化委員也要舒適這樣辦的到目前為止我們這行列已經超過9成了"},{"start":9539.331,"end":9563.048,"text":"你現在已經超過九成了但是你明年度你看光到現在執行9025萬到現在你說好到九成了那明年你還要增加1億1476萬所以針對這個部分請谷主委一定要去徹底的檢討執行率其實是相對偏低未來要怎麼推廣客家語言跟文化再麻煩谷主委能夠好好來去檢討這個部分"},{"start":9565.519,"end":9573.442,"text":"另外就是我們在114年度的議文傳播推轉的預算編列了16億1286萬7千其中對媒體政策跟業務宣導的是9204萬5千那我查了一下客委會主委可以看一下這個部分"},{"start":9583.885,"end":9602.214,"text":"過去從109年到113年的三季我們可以看到民視得標了12次八大五次三立一次年代四次其中一個貝利德股份生公司更是高達1億4688萬我們可以看到就是特定的媒體好像都能夠標到我們客委會的這個標案"},{"start":9604.855,"end":9617.7,"text":"那也會讓社會造成國家好像在養媒體的一個印象請問一下主委針對114年度這個部分客家委員會在執行年度的預算的時候是不是能夠改善"},{"start":9619.5,"end":9625.403,"text":"議員報告,我們的議案一定都會公開招標。是限制性招標嗎?但是有限制性招標嗎?對不對?"},{"start":9635.954,"end":9637.295,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":9653.063,"end":9655.185,"text":"114年度的標案一定要立即檢討不要讓大家覺得說所有媒體好像只有少數的媒體能夠標到客委會的預算應該是要讓所有的媒體有公開競爭的一個機會那我想政府在"},{"start":9669.081,"end":9697.186,"text":"補助跟標案的分配時也可以應該要考慮到如何促進媒體多元性才能夠提升多元媒體的生產好嗎?但是呢我們從目前看到確實有這樣的一個狀況那我們還是覺得你們應該在真正在做這樣的標案的時候應該要去注意到一個媒體多元性的狀況比如說現在看到很多都是民事的很多都是背利的那背利的公司到底是什麼樣子的一個來頭他幾乎都"},{"start":9697.506,"end":9708.375,"text":"客家委員會的表演幾乎都要飆到。這個部分麻煩主委一定要好好的在114年度我們在執行預算的時候一定要好好嚴格來執行。要一天合法。謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來請牛許廷委員。謝謝主席。客家委員會主委有請。好,請主委。"},{"start":9737.02,"end":9758.388,"text":"12月24日,您到苗栗縣公館客家文學花園移轉營運儀式上,針對財化法的修法發表聲明。我把它逐字來念。財化法修正通過之後,所有的預算要減掉28%。客委會補助全台的經費都會受到影響。新的案子沒有辦法補助。舊的案子,像客家花園這個案子的工程部分,有可能會延遲付款。"},{"start":9759.088,"end":9780.279,"text":"全臺灣的案子不只是客家花園,這個有超過200個客語班會無法開班。另外每一個縣市鄉鎮的活動獎勵金,像苗栗厚龍的補助都會減少。還有苗栗縣政府所提的民德水庫景觀以及自行車道建置等大型案子都無法支持。財劃法造成立即性的影響很大,希望苗栗縣政府自行補足案子的經費缺口。你是這樣說的對不對?是,是這樣說的。"},{"start":9783.52,"end":9805.419,"text":"我們就從這個你剛剛說的說法來延伸我們的一些問題第一個從剛剛你講的這個12月24號你講的這些話裡面可以得到幾個狀況第一個財務法通過你知道所有的預算都要減少28%因為你說所有的預算要減28%這個數字非常精準這個是你自己算出來得到的結論還是你收到行政院的命令"},{"start":9805.959,"end":9824.942,"text":"所以才百分之二十八因為有三千人以客家委員會及法庭的依選客家委員會以客家委員會經濟的三千人以內開案的部分差不多就有百分之二十八我的問題是你剛剛講說這是因為三千多億等等算出來的結果我的問題是這是你自己算的還是行政院命令你算的"},{"start":9825.222,"end":9831.085,"text":"我還想問問這問題的原因是因為到底你要節省出3000多億的經費轉給地方這是個事實但是怎麼樣移轉不一定是說通通用有一種方法是大家一起減少"},{"start":9849.153,"end":9876.434,"text":"一定的比例這是一種方法有一種是有一些部會相對來講業務可能沒有那麼重要他刪多一點也許客家的預算根本不會被動對不對請問行政院現在有決定用哪一種方法嗎目前正在合盲聽我們在用我們退股的方式來算我們的輸入影響的比例所以是你自己算的沒有行政院的指揮嘛對不對也還沒有決定嘛對不對沒錯沒錯你們是自己算的嗎沒錯沒錯"},{"start":9877.81,"end":9904.091,"text":"好第二個從你剛剛講的這裡面可以得到就新的案子沒辦法補助表示計劃型補助的預算會大大幅刪減嘛然後你甚至包含舊的已經核定的案子你都有可能會刪減而導致延宕然後你還有講說這個200個客家班會沒辦法開班所以編載這次預算第4幕客家語言發展的經費7億多其中2億多是要全部刪掉嘛對不對然後再來你從你這個裡面講看起來苗栗很慘嘛因為"},{"start":9904.972,"end":9905.192,"text":"最後一個喔?"},{"start":9928.511,"end":9951.571,"text":"從你剛剛這一段言論裡面可以得知的就是說這個減劣的計畫也就是說3減28%的這個計畫在114年就會執行可是剛剛我們講的這幾個問題就是從你那天講的話裡面延伸出來的可是跟現實上好像有很大的落差我現在先問你第一個問題如果按照你自己算的要減劣28%那我們是不是下午審預算的時候我們就直接把它減劣掉你贊成這樣的做法嗎"},{"start":9952.051,"end":9955.312,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":9975.979,"end":9994.948,"text":"還是要為客委員會預算來捍衛所以你還是希望可以盡量來通過對不對我們不要去影響客家的補助跟建設嘛拜託嘛你現在又拜託我好那這樣就很奇怪嘛你如果今天又希望說大家這個預算不要剪裂事實上剛剛很多委員也提到了不管是行政院、主計總署、財政部他們現在財政委員會質詢他們都講114年總預算要趕快來通過換言之行政院已經講得很清楚沒有要從編的計畫嘛也沒有要剪裂的一個狀況嘛對不對"},{"start":10003.132,"end":10018.261,"text":"那不簡略對不對是大的原則希望預算通過是你今天講的那你在苗栗那天的說法是不是造謠?呃不是因爲你採訪法立法院已經通過了啊通過了就會招人也要嘗試行那價值我們都都會前提齁那價值真是這樣會發會輸到的影響那個賣的我們就要先講先幹要選出來要本他自己了解要都會試試啦"},{"start":10029.195,"end":10052.943,"text":"主委阿你講的話是會被媒體報導的是會引起鄉親恐慌的為什麼我們可以在地方行程的時候講一套阿今天你在這邊答詢的時候你又變出另外一套為什麼兩套說法沒有同時存在阿我沒有兩套喔我那一套喔主委說他要出的麻煩因為立法院已經通過了他要施設阿那個價值針對他要三千兩億不好意思喔主委"},{"start":10054.003,"end":10066.932,"text":"你如果是一套說法的話那你是不是在那邊就講說程序上會發生這樣的事情你如果是這樣講那大家沒有意見但我們還是希望預算過關然後你在苗栗的時候你這樣講你今天回答質詢的時候你也這樣講大家會不會有問題啊可是問題是"},{"start":10069.113,"end":10076.041,"text":"你在這邊就講說,現在還有一些程序上的問題所以還要等結果,所以希望我們不要去見諫。在前面有講,在前面有講,客家是要通過,要這樣執行的法,在前面有講,客家是要執行的法,要影響到我們的那些油,我們都在窮擁一套的說法。"},{"start":10086.874,"end":10102.906,"text":"在所有的新聞媒體的揭露上面可不會幫你寫這麼多前提條件啊那你今天要不要在今天的質詢結束之後趕快發一個正式的澄清跟說明啊還是按照預算的正常編列程序跟法規的執行之後再做定奪是不是要這樣講我現在還是要做詳細論但是我們立法院通過財發法也會實施啦所以我們建基案呢我會去提供我們首度的影響然後通客家去報告"},{"start":10114.595,"end":10135.308,"text":"我現在要提醒你的就是說如果你明明知道這個有一定的行政程序預算的追加追減也有一定的程序那你就應該在公開的場合講一樣的程序如果你真的已經收到行政院的命令或者是你自己要自我尊潔你已經做好這樣的準備那你今天來這裡備詢的時候你就要講我們哪些計畫要處理今天我們就把它簡列"},{"start":10135.928,"end":10146.892,"text":"那也是一種做法但至少不管是這兩種的哪一種對外對內都是一致的可是你不能對外講的一副很恐怖的樣子對內又講我們要尋程序預算還要照編這就是雙標這就是造謠你對外沒有講一樣的話啊你對外的說法就是要刪減28%你對外的說法是200多個客餘班沒辦法開那是不是預算要刪掉"},{"start":10161.778,"end":10166.159,"text":"財劃法通過之後事權一定要調整我想你那天講的也是希望說如果真的有缺口希望縣市政府用多的統籌分配款來處理沒錯嘛但是你為什麼要為什麼前後要不一致呢"},{"start":10185.925,"end":10213.866,"text":"如果還沒有確定的是不能亂講欸你現在是主委欸現在是主委講出來的話大家都很關心欸是會造成客庄鄉親的恐慌啦本席強烈的建議啦今天在答詢結束之後趕快去媒體那邊把話重新的講清楚要按照程序按照等等經過審慎的討論之後再行調整把你前面的話收回來要不然我們下午預算我也不知道要怎麼審啦因為你一下說要刪一下又說不要刪那到底要不要刪都會遇到這個問題嘛對不對"},{"start":10215.948,"end":10224.752,"text":"希望主委審慎為之啦在對外講的話不要有其他政治帶風向的意圖我提醒你到這裏啦剩下我們下午預算再講謝謝感謝委員來上午兩位周電堂"},{"start":10227.709,"end":10251.987,"text":"欸谷主委你今天打選的時候一直講說假屎怎麼樣假屎怎麼樣我不知道那個翻譯的有沒有讓所有委員聽到你這個假設性假屎如何如何你根本不用不用講所以你之前在台中苗栗那個都是假設性的話那我們假設如果地震來怎麼樣講這些幹嘛根本還沒發生的嘛所以我不知道剛剛所有委員聽聽這個"},{"start":10254.872,"end":10260.382,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午"},{"start":10263.325,"end":10289.262,"text":"沒有沒有本席因為聽太多我本來早就要提了所以主委這一塊那個請你尊重會議主席所以主委你這個假屎假屎你從頭到尾都講假屎所以本席就在這裡特別也跟你講你這樣假屎可是寫出來都沒有假屎嘛對不對好那請你回座"},{"start":10291.295,"end":10295.24,"text":"請你尊重主席。接下來請李博義委員。請鼓主委。請鼓主委。"},{"start":10306.818,"end":10327.868,"text":"很巧齁我今天今天其實也為了才化法的問題也是也是要請教你一些才化法的這些之後的這個預算然後包含補助齁然後有客委會有一些預算包含這個我們客家文化產業發展我們要補助客家莊的產業聚落我們要"},{"start":10329.08,"end":10340.696,"text":"補助客家文化的產業設施我們要補助客家莊的地方創生相關產業計畫然後裡面包含資本門、經常門分別有補助大概編列了9億多的預算"},{"start":10343.939,"end":10368.482,"text":"那這個其實主委當然你提出這個擔心跟疑慮也不是沒有道理啦因為我看一下齁在我們立法院上個禮拜通過這個財化法的三讀裡面齁好我們來講客家的客家呃客家鄉親人口最多的這些縣市來講的話齁好我舉個桃園市新竹縣跟苗栗縣"},{"start":10369.503,"end":10397.645,"text":"各在明年度會增加的預算有多少?主委你聽了會不會流淚?我說的流淚是說你總預算多少你要補助人家總預算多少啊?桃園市總預算明年度增加617億新竹縣總預算明年度增加185億啊對不起桃園市我剛剛有一點口誤齁我看到的是整體預算桃園市增加259億"},{"start":10399.696,"end":10400.939,"text":"新竹縣增加185億苗栗縣增加137億主席新竹縣增加185億啦"},{"start":10410.782,"end":10433.416,"text":"那你客委會總年度編列客家文化產業發展的預算是9.38億好你客與客家委員發展總年度編列的預算來主委你總年度編列預算多少?客與總年度是43億人家一個新竹縣一個苗栗縣"},{"start":10434.477,"end":10457.645,"text":"所增加現在還不知道要做什麼事情喔我其實今天是想要來跟主委來討論說好那接下來的事權大家理性來討論吼包含這個主席剛剛雖然對我站在他面前不高興但是我們還是要來理性討論那新主線我不是不高興是你違反議事規則主席還沒請你你不要上台你時間給我暫停"},{"start":10459.045,"end":10461.927,"text":"主席沒有請你上台的時候其實你可以還不用上台你剛剛也不是你的時間啊"},{"start":10488.124,"end":10491.11,"text":"我是主席所以現在可以繼續開始謝謝主席我也很想討論主席"},{"start":10499.241,"end":10518.234,"text":"新竹增加了185億那各位會要補助的這些事權上我們是不是應該做一些理性的討論這個才是我們要的那如果真的國民黨萬一"},{"start":10520.097,"end":10535.01,"text":"的主張是說其實我們當過局處長當過這個部會首長我們知道其實我們都希望可以做很多事情可以跟行政院爭取爭取很多的預算這一本客委的會的預算其實就是這樣爭取來的當"},{"start":10538.668,"end":10566.949,"text":"當整個行政院的預算少了3000多億難免一定會少到可能各部會的預算一定會那客友會必須要做什麼樣的準備要不要來討論這些事權怎麼處理比如說你怎麼去補助比你還有錢的縣市啊這一些資本門的這些補助我們是不是應該坐下來討論啊你現在總預算就比我高這麼多我怎麼補助你啊主委你有沒有大概大概是不是這一套想法另外"},{"start":10568.029,"end":10568.672,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":10574.11,"end":10596.944,"text":"我現在也想要推動現在有ChatGPT那ChatGPT裡面也開發出我可以學習英文的ChatGPT那我也希望客委會可以來投資來開發讓國人可以下載免費的ChatGPT可以學習客語的GPT這個各縣市可以拿去做嗎?這還是要找統規事權讓這個客委會這邊來做嗎?那舉例"},{"start":10601.347,"end":10628.532,"text":"客委會其實有到日本那跟客家社團的互動我覺得這個也必須要強烈的鼓勵搞不好以後這些地方政府、客委會出國的預算都會比你還多了啦所以這一些相關的事全會希望主委可以做一個說明來主委你可不可以先回應我面對比你有錢的縣市接下來的補助你有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":10629.239,"end":10635.742,"text":"感謝委員,因為我們的依選其實沒有按到,國研室增加的同屬分配稅款已經比我們合理的依選更多所以我們會提出我們對於事權應該要有一些討論"},{"start":10645.467,"end":10653.37,"text":"當時我想要拜託地方政府將客家的部分依算付入年營主體,所以要將各縣市由客家種的縣市進行。其實這樣分下去我也很擔心,我們想推動這個比如說學客語的APP,搞不好每個縣市都有錢來做一個APP。"},{"start":10672.935,"end":10702.535,"text":"所以這個客家委員會還是要對於這個相關縣市的這些我們還是要具體的趕快來討論事權雖然這個是一個很畸形的立法先把錢拿走沒有討論事權但是確實真的要做事的這些部會就遇到了事權該怎麼樣來處理尤其客家委員會你是預算算很少很少的一個部會那很少很少的部會要來補助縣市政府非常非常非常有錢的這些縣市政府這是前所未有我們希望我們可以"},{"start":10703.155,"end":10708.16,"text":"坐下來好好的討論這些事權要怎麼樣來分配謝謝感謝李委員好接下來請丁學中委員"},{"start":10728.803,"end":10733.564,"text":"感謝主委我欸感謝主席啊我請主委好請主委好在明天吼欸主委吼剛剛大家都在說這個財劃法通過以後吼啊你馬上跳出來說我們整個總預算會少了兩成半欸兩成半到三成左右嗎"},{"start":10754.649,"end":10772.059,"text":"平均平均用平均來算我想請問主委那今年我們的預算有沒有少了兩兩成瓜目前我們在那EV主委選各州都提出來所以目前我們在州的年變的預算來送出來"},{"start":10773.576,"end":10779.4,"text":"那中央政府有沒有要說要重編預算?目前還沒有講還沒有嗎?所以這兩成瓜的預算你是怎麼算的?因為用財發法通過的3000兩億來算,加上法定的支出以後,平均的比率就是28%這樣來算"},{"start":10801.846,"end":10818.492,"text":"所以明年還沒有要執行這個財法法?因爲法院立法院三途通過目前行政院有數度有政策出來很恐怖所以很忙實行很忙正式審核實行"},{"start":10822.537,"end":10847.987,"text":"我是感覺我們政府我們的執政團隊我們的一言一舉是受國家以及全世界的一個矚目包括我們各位執政團隊你們所發言的是不是會造成地方上民眾的一個恐慌我們可能要以這個問題為優先才好法規我們是要讓我們每一個官員都可以平均"},{"start":10852.625,"end":10859.292,"text":"來懇求我們這個統籌分配款的獎項,可以來替代我們的社福,要是建設,可以來獎項更加落實,並不是說要把金融衝向那一層。這個過分,如果要給我們注意水平一個。還有一項,就是說"},{"start":10872.657,"end":10887.043,"text":"我們客家委員會這幾年增加了很多我們這個客家行銷傳播的經費我們有看那個拍一些國際大片來做宣傳請問我們那些拍的影片的內容是什麼"},{"start":10887.813,"end":10888.213,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":10911.732,"end":10917.174,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":10925.243,"end":10932.81,"text":"明顯分裂群組的一個過去發生的一個慘劇。但是我會把主委過過的就是說,空氣剛好而已,已經過去了。我們現在還要用政府主權來把那個過去又給空給流廢。"},{"start":10945.382,"end":10953.531,"text":"對嗎?所以我們這個,如果經過這個程序,同樣是這樣的這個做法,我們國家,我們人民,那個融合,大家和氣之氣,永遠都不會,永遠不會產生大家都有那個和氣之那個狀況。"},{"start":10965.626,"end":10968.848,"text":"主委應該我們也有宣導那個照片的嘛有我們也有宣導酒駕的嘛有對啊啊那個照片的那個是警政署的我們也幫他宣導那個那個酒駕的"},{"start":10994.468,"end":10995.569,"text":"午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至"},{"start":11012.398,"end":11015.481,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們國家要帶人民走向正向,我們不要再政治化了好不好?"},{"start":11031.596,"end":11032.917,"text":"我們客人會應該把我們客家的優美優美的傳統把我們客家優美的特色我們呈現出來這樣是"},{"start":11047.022,"end":11047.582,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":11077.478,"end":11096.007,"text":"首先是學習客語我們學習語言將要從小開始學習起。客委會有這個客語沉浸式教學計畫在客家文化重點發展推動全客語幼兒園這個部分我們最近發展的怎樣?"},{"start":11096.932,"end":11098.673,"text":"現在我們在全台灣都有推動一位議員曾經是教學,現在提供一位議員,我們不出本意,曾經是教學差不多52%都用合法來講,應該是800人辦"},{"start":11119.063,"end":11130.509,"text":"報告主席我再一點點時間就好我跟那個主委再探討一下我知道我們第一個這個第一個學年的成果是怎樣推動這個這個沉浸式秀兒園的"},{"start":11143.791,"end":11168.745,"text":"我們執行第一個學年目前全行業的幼兒園在他們的院室有8個院所是不是有77個幼兒園的3000多個小朋友獲得補助?有有有,有那些成金社這其中有幾家是全課以教學的"},{"start":11169.09,"end":11171.013,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":11185.349,"end":11188.772,"text":"一年兩屆,目前是八屆嗎?目前是八屆,我希望我們客語真的是一個我們台灣的一個很美妙的一個語言,希望如果我們落實,向下扎根,讓我們小朋友能確實的學習到我們客語的一些精華,我期待我們主委可以繼續來推動。"},{"start":11211.707,"end":11222.093,"text":"我們一天會給審問內用力以為要以學校發起最好的一個結團,學行業最好的結團。好,感謝主委,感謝主席。接下來請黃婕委員。"},{"start":11238.868,"end":11241.756,"text":"下午9時至上午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午"},{"start":11248.621,"end":11274.919,"text":"主委先跟你請教一下因為財化法三讀通過已是繼承的事實我相信全國人民也都看到了那您在地方上講的這些事情我覺得現在也有必要讓大家知道說這個財化法三讀通過之後到底對客委會會有什麼直接的影響可不可以告訴我說這樣對於客委會的預算來說到底會少幾成然後可能會影響什麼項目"},{"start":11276.161,"end":11278.984,"text":"跟議員報告,也要採訪法院的三前兩議。因為目前行盲作出確定的政策,但是我們在前提,即使只有案例,分批替各部份全部會減少28%。"},{"start":11295.423,"end":11303.605,"text":"在我們客家委員會的議室內,社會的部分,因為我們所擁有的基疫若性的輔助,所以我們對提防政府的輔助,對沙團的輔助,還有我們其他推動的,全部、全面會鑑賞金費。"},{"start":11314.295,"end":11329.98,"text":"好,我這邊想要誠摯的建議你你不只應該要講而且要講得更大聲而且你應該要更明確的告訴大家接下來到底什麼項目會受到影響那剛剛其實有很多委員提到說"},{"start":11330.76,"end":11335.844,"text":"這個說他們砍了3700億中央部會的預算然後又地方的補助還不能少那什麼意思代表說你們中央接下來沒錢但你們還是要做事那地方拿了錢卻可以不做事這個理論我聽了是覺得非常荒謬啊其實大家知道編預算是先有事才有錢"},{"start":11353.92,"end":11379.481,"text":"你要知道要做什麼你才來編預算啊怎麼會地方拿了這三成之後不知道要做什麼但是告訴你說中央的錢不能少你們要做的事情還是得繼續做有這種道理嗎那剛剛我聽到幾個更荒謬的啊他們非常敢做不敢當就是說你在地方上不准你講不准我們主委在地方告訴大家客委會的預算會減少"},{"start":11381.703,"end":11397.2,"text":"這個財化法三讀通過不是已經是既定的事實嗎?全台灣人民也都一清二楚為什麼不准我們部會在地方張揚呢?什麼意思?這等於是說跟你喜結一空但是還不准你張揚,不准你呼救"},{"start":11398.556,"end":11423.335,"text":"這完全是土匪的行徑我在這邊非常嚴厲的譴責那我也必須要拜託主委的是其實這些事情的討論就是到底要多少預算做多少事被砍了多少錢多少事情不能做這個都是應該在財化法討論的時候在委員會在院會就應該要清楚的討論而不是到現在先非常慌亂的這種強硬通過之後三讀了"},{"start":11427.158,"end":11451.46,"text":"現在我們才在討論可能會影響什麼項目都太慢了都太遲了所以我要拜託主委的是客委會到底哪一些預算項目會明確的受到影響你們應該要清楚的告訴大眾而這些事權是不是應該跟地方政府趕快的來做討論告訴地方政府說這個錢回歸地方那事情也應該回歸地方啊"},{"start":11452.581,"end":11474.222,"text":"所以我要拜託主委也是客會其實今天回應的還是不夠清楚到底哪一些項目受到影響其實我們到現在也都還不知道因為你們還在決定嘛是這個意思嘛告訴大家說對真的會減少三成但是哪一些項目被刪了被砍了你們不知道是這樣子嗎"},{"start":11475.103,"end":11481.889,"text":"可不可以請主委回覆?我同意委員報告,就客家市增設案內的情況之下,28%為所要用的全部合理費的預算,包括資本門及金錢體的新的檢查案都會停下"},{"start":11496.601,"end":11498.003,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":11512.644,"end":11514.907,"text":"財政委員會提到強硬、支持強硬、貴賭契及家鄉部份的認輸及金費也會受到影響。因應合理費的預算及全部基金的預算,貴賭契及金費都會受到影響。"},{"start":11532.918,"end":11548.415,"text":"好謝謝主委的說明剛剛說的這些項目也請拜託主委就是讓大家知道因為你們這些錢被砍了所以這些事情就是應該要回歸地方那不然這些計劃型的補助到底要怎麼來施做呢"},{"start":11549.619,"end":11579.254,"text":"好那再來還有點時間我跟主委請教一下這個最近有收到很多這個客家統戰團的消息我想要問主委有沒有手上有沒有相關的資訊那你有沒有掌握這種交流團那就我手上知道的資訊包括說全國的臺聯主辦的2024年臺灣青年客家文化演習然後中國國台辦統戰部他們也有辦一個臺灣客籍子弟原鄉文化尋根之旅"},{"start":11579.834,"end":11594.5,"text":"這些很明確都是他們的統戰單位邀請台灣的客家子弟來做以假文化交流之名行統戰之實的內容。我不知道主委這邊有沒有掌握有的話你們有什麼因應的措施?"},{"start":11595.38,"end":11602.505,"text":"我認為在一個平坦準確的年責之下,我們可以錄一段考慮,但是那是違反了年責,我想我們也沒有同意。在學費方面來說,目前不會去支持這樣的考慮的預算的補儲,所以目前我們先不做這樣的補儲。"},{"start":11621.445,"end":11649.711,"text":"好這個要拜託我因為這個其實是陸委會主管的業務但是我也希望說既然他都是特別針對客家的子弟而且大家也知道說中國現在特別喜歡針對台灣年輕人的首來族就是讓你在不知情的情況下邀請台灣的年輕人去交流把你當成統戰的樣板這個都是現在新聞都已經揭露的非常清楚的事實所以我也希望說客人會這邊也要有所掌握並且跟陸委會合作來協助管控這樣的風險好嗎"},{"start":11650.731,"end":11654.993,"text":"好,沒問題感謝王委員好,謝謝主委好,接下來請吳祈明委員好,主席我們與會同仁請我們客委會我們的股主委好,要請主委"},{"start":11685.224,"end":11707.338,"text":"主委早上我看很多委員大家都關心的我們的財務法通過三讀通過那對我們未來我們客委會的預算的執行的情形應該會是會大大受影響那這邊因為我們現在大家都在注重的就是推廣我們客家的語言"},{"start":11707.958,"end":11709.74,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":11729.761,"end":11734.725,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":11758.303,"end":11760.844,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":11784.651,"end":11788.544,"text":"那未來我想請問一下主委未來會不會受影響"},{"start":11789.762,"end":11794.125,"text":"客家市財發法行政院最后的廳辦會審國府費的遺申,不過比例的一度,度度小小會影響,目前我們擁有的三千人以來退估國府費,我會審的遺申在2028的情況之下影響,一定我會影響,我的影響當然是自己要判理的,要我影響要補儲提供政府的遺申。"},{"start":11819.975,"end":11824.861,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬部分。二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":11837.011,"end":11839.752,"text":"午10時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":11854.158,"end":11875.383,"text":"算是說東西說東西也是做了滿成功的還有我們那個童話本席因為我還是關心我們新北市這邊你過去所推動的我們還是要繼續的來推動我認為這是應該民眾最能接受的最能讓我們年輕人最能接觸我們的客家的"},{"start":11875.883,"end":11878.224,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":11904.067,"end":11909.171,"text":"那是說我們的依存作為平時年內當然年內的顧慮我們都會做得好那是說有三個顧慮一定會變更小也會變更小也一定會受到影響當然我還希望作為一來一退一來一倒作為持續下去判"},{"start":11929.019,"end":11939.186,"text":"好的,因為也要拜託我們趙偉,趙偉是客家人,又是新竹人,趙偉這你一定要幫忙客,客委會。好,謝謝。好,感謝。好,接下來請徐巧欣委員。謝謝主席,我們請谷主委。好,要請谷主委。"},{"start":11961.981,"end":11984.701,"text":"主委好。您今天一直在講說在財化法通過之後我們客委會的預算會變少。可是我在上一次本席在這裡問你的時候,包含疫名記的補助來說全台灣就已經變少了。那個時候沒有財化法。跟委員報告全台灣的客家的法律一路引渡。"},{"start":11987.002,"end":12005.658,"text":"國委院的是最重要的,我們召委也知道嘛,最重要的節日就是義民祭嘛。當時沒有財化法的情況之下,義民祭的全台灣補助包含台北市的補助都變少了。那時候我還說你為什麼不去幫忙爭取更多的預算,然後你只說你會努力。所以代表什麼?"},{"start":12006.138,"end":12011.322,"text":"代表在財劃法通過之前,我們客人會向中央爭取的補助就已經減少了,不是嗎?但為什麼議民際的預算會全國都減少?"},{"start":12031.357,"end":12046.072,"text":"所以按多個情況待下可以撫貼子眼就姑聽今天很多人也問到你在台中跟在苗栗不斷的去講說以後沒有辦法有能力照顧地方了但我想請問一下您所說的經費裡面來說的話有多少是中央核定的預算不是輔助型的預算"},{"start":12054.861,"end":12062.084,"text":"全部都是計劃型預算?全部都是計劃型預算。那我問你齁,我來問你一下。我們在這個預算書裡面,在預算書裡面,所謂的客家議員發展進化的總經費有沒有編列?編列了多少錢?有,我拿一下預算書。議員發展有兩項,兩項項目,一個是31年,一個是11年。請問選了沒有?"},{"start":12080.092,"end":12082.635,"text":"目前很忙。那請問財政相關部門有要重編預算嗎?目前很忙。沒有的話為什麼你會認為預算會減少?因為財務法已經提出"},{"start":12094.969,"end":12095.329,"text":"因為我問的是明年嘛"},{"start":12111.943,"end":12134.626,"text":"明年呢你預算根本還沒審啊明年你預算書編在這裡你在還沒審的情況下你就告訴地方說中央接下來沒有能力照顧地方這是錯假訊息啊我再問你國家客家發展計劃客家地方發展計劃的統籌相關國家委員整體發展方案多少錢?目前編期一呢"},{"start":12135.819,"end":12139.522,"text":"會影響嗎?明年會變少嗎?目前目前照案的詳細來講,客家是通過採訪法,採訪法,問的是明年度我們審查預算都還沒有出來的情況下,明年會變少嗎?你的預算書會改嗎?目前還沒要重新變預算的,那個,沒有改變嗎?"},{"start":12157.475,"end":12162.699,"text":"最後40秒我們看一下你們說沒有錢結果你們在做什麼登廣告啊我問一下客委會去登你這個廣告花了多少錢這一篇這一篇你花了多少錢上面寫是贊助哦你不要跟我說我沒有自己長眼睛看一下贊助兩個字是什麼意思"},{"start":12184.773,"end":12186.417,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":12189.625,"end":12195.247,"text":"你呢為了要在財劃法之後到處的造謠跟抹黑製片我敢理應報告我敢理應報告他會喊那個我能去提訪通託電力inviti汪子國小幹然後你在汪子國小裡面講說你們沒有辦法再協助地方了然後你去做了一個你去做了一個臉書的天文就在講這件事情我問你贊助這一篇臉書的文章花了多少經費只要回答我這件事情就好了"},{"start":12219.133,"end":12246.266,"text":"我只問這麼一天兩萬多塊錢用這個東西在造謠告訴地方說以後沒有辦法擺不住我剛剛已經為了明年度的預算根本還沒有審查根本還沒有審查預算也沒有要重編怎麼會影響到地方呢在這種情況之下你們花兩萬塊告訴全國的人民一個不對的事實拜託請客委會不要再做這樣的事情了謝謝"},{"start":12253.45,"end":12256.131,"text":"謝謝徐小新委員的質詢謝謝我們谷主委接下來請徐欣盈委員質詢謝謝主席請谷主委請谷主委"},{"start":12276.723,"end":12280.346,"text":"財政收支劃分法一通過之後你就在地方這樣發言"},{"start":12299.71,"end":12300.771,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":12317.961,"end":12328.885,"text":"下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時"},{"start":12336.151,"end":12349.548,"text":"這個客委會的主委一定要是客家人他代表客家鄉親但是讓客家鄉親覺得主委你好像是行政院的發言人耶你好像是主記長耶你更像是民進黨黨團的發言人"},{"start":12351.63,"end":12366.984,"text":"客家客家客委會的主委你應該看到這樣的情況第一個反應你應該是要替客家鄉親爭取更多的經費讓我們客家文化可以保存"},{"start":12367.705,"end":12381.559,"text":"更不要講說今天那麼多委員在質詢很多你我等一下也會講你客家特別重要的經費你一直遞減然後非客家區你的錢一直增加這就是最大的問題所以財政收支劃分法通過"},{"start":12386.713,"end":12405.179,"text":"行政院都還沒有給你們指示也都還沒有跟大家有共識也還沒有要你們去調整結果你的膝蓋就反應了你怎麼可以這樣客家人非常非常的反彈還有客家鄉親也對您非常非常的失望"},{"start":12405.999,"end":12425.072,"text":"我希望您從今天開始你一定要改變你是客委會的主委你是幫客家鄉親爭取權益你是要保存客家文化的你不是民進黨的發言人你更不是行政院的發言人所以我還沒有請你講好不好所以我要請主委接下來"},{"start":12431.781,"end":12460.588,"text":"不論如何我們要請你要持續的來爭取我們客家鄉親應該有的各種活動各種文化保存各種的經費那這個我想您應該也知道本來你客人會的經費比大部分的縣市都少但是你就是針對有些活動你在協助嘛還有有些客家相關的建設你這邊協助嘛好接著我要很快的趕快來講"},{"start":12464.603,"end":12483.668,"text":"我們六都啊,六都裡面本席請教你,六都裡面客家人口占比最高的是哪一都?呃,占比,呃,新竹,新竹沒有沒有,六都啦,欸,六個直轄市啊,欸,桃園市,桃園市,桃園市客家人占比39.9,40%的客家人,那"},{"start":12487.709,"end":12513.632,"text":"六都裡面客家人口最高的總數,不是比例,是總數最高的是哪一個?沒有啦,桃園還是最高,現在還有90萬,對,桃園還是90萬。第二高的就是你說的新北市,但是本席看到我們客委會歷年補助直轄市的經費統計,"},{"start":12515.902,"end":12542.436,"text":"都沒有按照客家人的比例在在給啊臺北市不是排第客家比例站第三名也也佔了17.4他的人口數總數也在這個六都裡面也是第四名結果你臺北市給的最少最少最少等一下還沒請你講結果高雄市台南市"},{"start":12543.836,"end":12557.421,"text":"這個客家佔比就是六都裡面最後兩名結果你的經費給的特多特多不斷的多特別我覺得很好笑是台南台南市為什麼這個經費給這麼高所以本席要再次強調呼應我剛剛講的你是客委會主委"},{"start":12564.284,"end":12564.584,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":12586.192,"end":12590.895,"text":"我們的政務副主委為什麼遲遲未上任?原因是什麼?"},{"start":12605.623,"end":12607.765,"text":"主委,我們客家人是不是人才濟濟?你認不認為客家人人才濟濟?所以找不到人啊?到這麼久都還沒有上任?"},{"start":12621.379,"end":12639.97,"text":"所以是怎麼樣?所以人事預算可以刪囉?因為你都沒有上任嘛?那是到底什麼原因?你就是只鎖定一個我們客家人既然人才濟濟為什麼你就是鎖定一個然後他沒有辦法放下他的工作?那你詢問的每一個,你問了幾個?幾個嘛,你問了幾個?那"},{"start":12649.296,"end":12661.741,"text":"問了那麼多都沒有一個可以來就任他要不要我們推薦一下可以馬上就任優秀的客家人所以你看再來再來客委會我們的委員27人你有看一下你們的網站嗎網站現在放的是2020年的"},{"start":12675.749,"end":12677.111,"text":"5時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":12687.337,"end":12710.873,"text":"我剛剛才看我剛剛才上網看什麼原因為什麼現在客委會這27個都沒有沒有跟你是有更新網站沒更新還是你這27個人其實這個都是客家鄉親跟本席反映的為什麼我們客客家人才基金你副主委行政副主委找不到好政務副主委找不到然後呢我們客委會的委員"},{"start":12711.693,"end":12716.097,"text":"足足一年不用聘任嗎?已經聘了。已經聘了。網頁沒有更新。網頁是沒有編金費?還是編太多都不用改?我們會更新。"},{"start":12727.734,"end":12746.179,"text":"所以這個會議很多啊還有啊剛剛大家講的啊疫名祭的相關活動啊確實啊這個我們這個疫名祭是這麼重要的客家的活動竟然新北市的疫名祭你就從480萬給它降到100萬新竹縣的也從400萬降到200萬"},{"start":12752.04,"end":12762.283,"text":"但是呢,屏東6堆春節季薄公生的活動315萬增加到362萬6堆的秋收季又從154萬提高到349萬所以主委"},{"start":12776.345,"end":12778.547,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":12795.362,"end":12812.447,"text":"下午9時至上午9時至下午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":12819.943,"end":12835.843,"text":"正正全委員、正正全委員、正正全委員不在。楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在。高金樹梅委員、高金樹梅委員、高金樹梅委員不在。請一人職委員質詢。"},{"start":12849.383,"end":12851.786,"text":"主委你知道我們板橋區多少客家人嗎?"},{"start":12864.278,"end":12883.29,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":12893.376,"end":12915.613,"text":"但是沒有提出一個對都會客家一個比較完整的政策然後甚至於補助我認為都對我們雙北就是都會客家補助其實都不夠啦剛剛徐慶偉也有提到藝名祭本來110年的時候藝名祭是補助我們新北市400萬那113年剩100萬桐花祭110年的時候是補助250萬那現在是剩140萬"},{"start":12924.46,"end":12940.58,"text":"為什麼會這樣子啊就是說好像對於我們客家都會客家的部分補助越來越少在舉辦活動方面因為我們新北市移民祭是傳統各家非常大的活動我每年都有去那個在內活動裡面所有的客家社團一起參與"},{"start":12941.681,"end":12956.053,"text":"然後各我們新北的各界的客家的一些前輩也都會來大家非常開心這是一個很大盛會結果感覺好像客會不是那麼支持啊現在的預算只剩下以前的四分之一這為什麼會這樣啊"},{"start":12958.515,"end":12963.357,"text":"議員報告兩部份,一部份是因為合約費推薦案導引,一來導引了解客家文化、氣氛客家文化及參議客家文化。故所謂一來要討團體、團、法同、各體、各縣市政府"},{"start":12975.603,"end":12982.873,"text":"昨天的部署一定會停署,所以按照情況,因為我們的醫生很悠閒,所以分批下來也緊批很悠閒。沒有,主委不好意思,我不能接受這樣的說法。"},{"start":12991.664,"end":13012.624,"text":"因為你的講法是說因為太多人辦活動經費有限所以我就把這些旗艦型的活動把它減少沒有人是這樣子搞的啦工廠客家活動大的活動旗艦型活動都要維持嘛你寧可把餅分給大家隨便讓大家去弄反而不讓說有一個旗艦型的活動讓大家真正可以參與客家文化我非常不贊同你這樣做法第二個"},{"start":13014.085,"end":13037.559,"text":"我們都會客家其實面對到客語的推廣更重要為什麼因為像傳統客庄他們有那個比較好的客語環境嘛但我們比如說以我們板橋來講他是都市比較都會區的大家分散在各個地方所以客語會在今年今年有一個預算500多萬給新北市是做客語家庭嘛為什麼明年沒有了還忙審查還忙審查會補助多少還忙"},{"start":13042.662,"end":13057.247,"text":"審查我知道嘛但是審查你是要先提提你要變多少預算要幫他審查?你要變多少?先不提客家行業家庭的部分我會用力我會慶賓新北很用力我知道我現在說客人會不用力多少?因為我們行業家庭跟行業層間幾乎並窮下位所以他沒有另外一端套起來什麼並列?"},{"start":13070.562,"end":13085.179,"text":"下午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時至上午11時"},{"start":13085.499,"end":13099.841,"text":"明年變390萬至增加78萬但是我們今年113年的客與家庭計畫是564萬所以你把我們的564萬取消了增加78萬到客與深耕計畫"},{"start":13101.192,"end":13112.861,"text":"你覺得那個比例會不會差太多?因為新北市不知道你把客語家庭計畫把它取消了嘛新北市客語家庭找了一千多個不是你沒有經費補助嘛多少嘛多少嘛你現在就講嘛"},{"start":13128.686,"end":13130.649,"text":"三百九十幾萬,三百九十幾萬是克里申根計劃嘛!"},{"start":13143.311,"end":13161.901,"text":"你是主委,你的資料還沒有我詳細喔?你現在是客語生根計畫,我知道啊,390萬啊。但是今年本來就有312萬的客語生根計畫啊。所以實際上今年,明年只比今年多78萬嘛。可是今年有編一個客語家庭計畫。"},{"start":13162.921,"end":13163.541,"text":"五百六十四萬。"},{"start":13175.799,"end":13189.828,"text":"就少500多萬嘛我現在是拿數字跟你講嘛那500多萬去哪裡了我們的移民記憶也被減少了我們的童話記憶也被減少了我們今年的客語家庭計畫500多萬沒有了然後客語深耕計畫多78萬那個是深耕計畫我講的是客語家庭計畫不要給我在那邊"},{"start":13205.217,"end":13231.073,"text":"我講是客與家庭計劃客與家庭成立了一千多個很多家庭報名參加然後新北市政府也配套鼓勵他們多講母語然後讓他們參加活動然後弄了很多有關的配套方案結果忽然間客委會把這500多萬取消了然後再升任計劃多了78萬然後就說這個是客家家庭計劃然後主委講半天你就是沒有告訴我這多個500多萬為什麼新北市客家人"},{"start":13231.693,"end":13236.355,"text":"六十幾萬,不是客家人嗎?我跟委員報告齁,我從頭講,今年以前行業家庭跟尋經基金會那兩位基金會明年以後兩位合共合共同來申請基金會。我知道,對方申請就是390萬嘛,就是390萬嘛,不要再鬼打牆了,錢就是少很多,你現在是講說新北市政府沒有來申請是不是?"},{"start":13258.883,"end":13276.418,"text":"還沒有審查到其他計劃嗎?還是說其實實際上你們跟他們講說沒有那個母語計劃你們不知道他們不知道說客語家庭計劃並到生根計劃有確定?我得到的消息不是這樣喔那如果說今天你透過這樣的一個質詢過程你講說喔還有錢金美智可不可以繼續來申請"},{"start":13285.305,"end":13290.827,"text":"五百六十四加三百一十二是八百七十六萬。是八百七十六萬。那你現在只有三百九嘛。所以他還有五百多萬的空間可以申請是這樣嗎?你的意思是這樣嗎?"},{"start":13311.113,"end":13322.857,"text":"因為主委因為新北市政府的人現在不在這邊但是沒關係就我跟你的對答你的講法是說是他們沒有來申請所以給的這麼少嘛但是我得到消息不是這樣我得到消息是說客委會你把那個計畫取消那沒有關係啦"},{"start":13336.921,"end":13355.274,"text":"那你已經承諾了嘛今天只要新北市政府認為有需要比如說客與家庭他還可以來申請嗎是不是這個意思嗎有需求就可以申請嘛那今年跟明年比其實是客委會目前是少補助500多萬嘛所以他還有很大空間可以申請嗎這主委你直接承諾就可以了嘛"},{"start":13355.734,"end":13376.808,"text":"因為我來自於地方我們要幫地方爭取預算你如果願意承諾我我覺得就OK啦就沒什麼要跟你吵的啊是不是沒有錯沒有錯我們會跟新北市講說對跟新北市講說可能你們你們中央地方政府溝通之間有問題啦應該是有問題啦應該是應該是有問題啦應該是有問題啦因為我得到的消息不是這樣不過沒有關係我們不用去吵這些我們把事情做好就好"},{"start":13384.133,"end":13410.788,"text":"那基本上你願意再多給我們五百多萬我覺得謝謝你啊我代替我們新北市的對就這個地方如果願意申請你願意給嗎就是這樣子嘛然後另外就是藝名祭跟童話祭啦我希望說你可以維持我們旗艦行的活動啊四百萬的活動你只補助一百萬這是最大的活動這個是讓客家文化大家一起在一起嘉年華式的活動結果你只給一百萬好像很看不起這個活動我非常不能接受啦"},{"start":13411.948,"end":13432.84,"text":"我根本不能接受啦你可能坐在冷氣房裡面啦不了解地方啦所以就隨便給100萬100萬給你們你們能辦就能辦不能辦就算了但是這個對我們來說很重要希望你改變你的思維這是旗艦行活動每一個機關每一個縣政府都有一個大型的活動地方的節慶那以客家來講在我們新北市就是藝名節"},{"start":13434.475,"end":13453.947,"text":"他的重要性不是像你講的啦,我們錢就這樣隨便給一給,我覺得我不太能接受這樣的講法。每個地方,每個地方,由他的接近的法律,或是針對接近法律,投射的位分都投一些的啦。多少給一?以前是400萬嘛,你上任之後就剩100萬嘛。你跟其他的主委都不一樣啦。"},{"start":13455.427,"end":13455.587,"text":"前4百萬現在1百萬"},{"start":13468.419,"end":13494.904,"text":"就是在主委的任內啦,把我們砍到剩這麼少啦。你砍到成這樣,我們新北市被你這樣子欺負,實在是我覺得很誇張啦,謝謝。也沒有啦,因為在新北市發動的全體委員,一來一到,但是可以看到我們在家庭、泥沿、鳳眠,貴重事,所以一來一到。反正結果就是這樣嘛,你就聽不進別人講的嘛,謝謝。"},{"start":13501.668,"end":13510.605,"text":"好,謝謝葉元芝委員。我們登記發言的委員除不在場者,其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束。"},{"start":13513.055,"end":13522.264,"text":"未及答覆部分,請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會。我們現在休息用餐50分鐘。我們下午1點05分繼續開會。"},{"start":14441.388,"end":14441.429,"text":"午10時至9時。"},{"start":14497.602,"end":14499.306,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":15241.096,"end":15241.137,"text":"午10時至9時。"},{"start":16198.729,"end":16200.282,"text":"下午10時至上午10時至下午10時至上午10時至上午10時至下午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時"},{"start":17079.209,"end":17104.489,"text":"好我們繼續開會現在開始審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會114年預算書案請宣讀預算書及委員提案宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":17106.499,"end":17130.749,"text":"114年度客家委員會及所屬稅務預算。第二款罰款及賠償收入第14項客家委員會及所屬50萬元。第三款歸備收入第9項客家委員會及所屬580萬元。第一幕行政歸備收入350萬元。第二幕使用歸備收入230萬元。第四款財產收入第15項客家委員會及所屬1300萬元。"},{"start":17132.91,"end":17146.623,"text":"第7款其他收入第15項客家委員會及所屬804萬元。第一幕雜項收入804萬元。第一節收回以前年度稅出50萬元。第二節其他雜項收入754萬元。"},{"start":17151.315,"end":17158.002,"text":"稅出部分第二款行政院主管第10項客家委員會及所屬4370364000元第一幕一般行政270345000元第二幕綜合規劃發展137118000元第三幕客家文化產業發展1203618000元"},{"start":17172.897,"end":17181.445,"text":"四、客家語言發展7億3751萬8千元。五、藝文傳播推展16億1286萬7千元。六、客家文化發展中心規劃與營運4億6876萬1千元。七、一般建築及設備113萬7千元。八、第一預備金200萬元。"},{"start":17196.141,"end":17210.249,"text":"客家委員會主管財團法人客家公共傳播基金會114年度預算一、工作計劃部分因依據收入與支出審查結果隨同調整。二、總收入支出及預出部分收入2億2730萬元支出2億3641萬3千元本期短處911萬3千元。繼續宣讀提案"},{"start":17221.035,"end":17239.25,"text":"客家委員會及所屬稅入部分第三款歸備收入一案第四款財產收入提案一案稅出部分第十項客家委員會及所屬為第三到第四案共計兩案第一幕一般行政為第五至第七案共計三案"},{"start":17240.302,"end":17250.247,"text":"二、綜合規劃發展第8至第17案共計10案。三、客家文化產業發展第18至第27案共計10案。四、客家語言發展第28至第41案共計14案。五、英文傳播推展第42至第59案共計18案。"},{"start":17265.39,"end":17284.66,"text":"第六目,客家文化發展中心規劃與營運為60至67案共計8案。第七目,第一班建築及設備為1案。主決議部分為69到第79案共計11案。提案內容請委員參閱。"},{"start":17288.085,"end":17304.494,"text":"財團法人客家公共傳播基金會預算委員提案會整表。收入部分委員會相關提案。支出部分業務支出為第一至第四案共計四案。業務外支出第五案共計一案。提案內容請委員參閱。宣讀完畢。好,我們現在進行協商。"},{"start":17313.39,"end":17338.822,"text":"我想在我們開始進行協商那這個行政單位好像比較沒有時間跟我們委員好像針對提案做有溝通過了嗎好像還沒好好沒關係那本期在這裡也站在是客家客家人所以我也希望所有委員多支持客家的預算多協助客家的預算那比較"},{"start":17339.522,"end":17340.183,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":17363.701,"end":17385.098,"text":"就您的提案如果你覺得說我們這個行政單位的說明你OK那你就直接表達比如說照主決意或者是直接測案都可以但是需要行政單位說明跟溝通的我們也請這個行政單位務必好好的說明跟溝通"},{"start":17386.681,"end":17388.363,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":17401.569,"end":17407.612,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":17418.139,"end":17442.279,"text":"第二輪的時候大概也還會檢列我更多所以我第7案第8案我也維持其他其他我請行政單位給我好的主決意我全部保留只要你主決意OK我所謂保留是我保留上去你主決意OK我全部就會照你們的我的12案我都講完了好不好你有聽懂"},{"start":17447.168,"end":17451.731,"text":"第一案第二案然後我是45跟49對45跟49案我維持其他請行政單位還有第62這三案維持"},{"start":17467.912,"end":17488.798,"text":"對其他我們就看行政單位你只要給我的主決意寫的OK我全部我支持我們客家客家的所有預算好OK那接下來我們是不是請在座的委員可以來表達跟發言那我們請行政單位務必嚴正以待請黃婕委員如果你覺得你的OK你就全部寫我的我就講完了"},{"start":17497.984,"end":17502.788,"text":"實施辦法這件事情因為其實之前在那個客家語言升職計畫裡面就有一直提到說要讓在地的客家人口比例通過認證的"},{"start":17527.048,"end":17537.673,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":17554.841,"end":17578.289,"text":"那沒有沒有公家或是沒有一些額外的讓他就是鼓勵他們的措施導致說願意去考可以認證的公務員的比例一直拉不上來是不是有這樣的情況如果有的話我覺得這個真的是要趕快協助他們然後讓他們有更多的誘因像是說給他們一些獎勵啊或者是讓他們至少說至少不用擔心要請假這件事情"},{"start":17581.237,"end":17588.262,"text":"好那等一下有沒有要行政單位回應好好那行政單位要回應的到這邊來來請說明應該這樣那個因為黃姐委員只談一案有沒有相關的有要也要一併就是一樣的然後一併問的他們可以一併回答沒有沒有那請你回答是一樣的嗎好那請王美惠委員"},{"start":17614.522,"end":17620.305,"text":"主委,在這,我現在要解釋,審判另外,我認為這次是怎麼用那麼多人可以去客家,因為你的誘因都沒有出來,因為年輕人也認為,跟我客家有什麼幫助,有什麼獎勵嗎?也是完全沒到位,所以說你看客家的人,過去的人的年紀,"},{"start":17644.395,"end":17645.436,"text":"好 那請回答"},{"start":17664.98,"end":17666.601,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":17688.39,"end":17689.111,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":17708.211,"end":17727.386,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":17737.754,"end":17740.935,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":17754.241,"end":17754.902,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":17781.041,"end":17796.469,"text":"下午10時至上午10時至下午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時"},{"start":17810.316,"end":17820.485,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":17831.894,"end":17835.776,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":17852.026,"end":17853.287,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":17876.3,"end":17888.216,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":17893.757,"end":17895.898,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":17923.548,"end":17932.875,"text":"高雄平台發表都已經納進去了這個超額比序的小分項目希望是用這樣的一個方式補充一下你剛才說40個小孩可以到校啦比如說我家裡是那個家道副校本來他們就有個家人他們一般怎麼學怎麼學就不可能40個"},{"start":17952.171,"end":17978.502,"text":"是不是那個標準可以低一點?因為他怎麼搞到他就不可能40個有嘛。是不是他那班老公跟他們幾班個有了後,要靠的時間,你們可以有這個合遇。這是重要啦。不然你怎麼去找,怎麼可能一班40個。所以你們這個研議一下好不好。好,議長。"},{"start":17985.247,"end":18001.94,"text":"你們聊學校有很多什麼課與認證的老師或什麼的你們要跟教育部去配合要課與認證的老師就可以在學校直接就去辦這個認證這個不就很簡單的事情嗎為什麼你們還要再拎我"},{"start":18003.381,"end":18004.062,"text":"來蘇巧慧委員"},{"start":18024.382,"end":18041.896,"text":"這個齁雖然主席說要讓我們可以快問快答的方式不過因為一答了之後齁就開始大家就不然我本來也是在說相關的這個考試語言的這一案啊我本來想說啊那就有回應了就不用特別說了不過聽完回答以後我也想要說兩句啊說一下說一下對"},{"start":18043.217,"end":18046.179,"text":"我想這不外乎是大家為了要讓客語文化可以保存嘛那就兩種一個是增加誘因嘛講這個話能夠有實際坦白講比較那個公益上公立上的這樣的目的一個是這個另外一個就是增加興趣"},{"start":18059.787,"end":18067.277,"text":"所以增加興趣跟增加誘因是為二的方式因為年輕人坦白講不會一開始的時候不可能會有什麼文化跟歷史的包袱你沒有先給他有文化和歷史的認識他將來就不可能因為是因為這個東西回去傳"},{"start":18076.59,"end":18077.21,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":18100.321,"end":18115.912,"text":"二、如何增加興趣?增加興趣的話其實最簡單的一種方式就是跟流行文化產生關聯性啦也只有這個是最夯的你看大家就是要嘛就去學韓語學泰語對不對然後我們部落這邊有號稱學美語阿美語啦所以我們也都是講美語的啊"},{"start":18122.717,"end":18124.259,"text":"所以就是你讓那個歌手紅了歌星紅了偶像紅了自然而然就帶動每個人都會講兩句話所以客委會有沒有跟金曲獎的或者是其他有rap的或者是這個"},{"start":18138.312,"end":18158.824,"text":"這一些的相關的流行文化產業的人有辦法能夠連結去校園去青年學子我其實一直想看的是類似這樣子的計畫嘛那我覺得這可能跟客台啊跟其他的是有相關聯繫有聯動的部分所以我的建議是就這兩個部分你們到底做了什麼成效多少請具體回答請回答"},{"start":18164.122,"end":18190.658,"text":"剛張委員所提出來的我們後續會跟教育部會跟他們提出來用這樣的一個方式那蘇委員所提出的列入照的筆序之後這邊比較明顯就是近年列進去的包括臺南屏東這個報考人數是有很明顯的一個增長那至於說流行文化的部分因為這是我們另外一個處的業務是不是請另外一處針對這個部分說明謝謝"},{"start":18194.178,"end":18205.012,"text":"那個既然有明顯的趨勢的話麻煩那個資料可不可以送我們辦公室謝謝你謝謝麻煩你們說明的時候說一下是什麼單位然後哪一位謝謝"},{"start":18210.034,"end":18229.174,"text":"客家委員會議文傳播處感謝不是客家委員會你們都是客家委員會是說你那個第二你的一級單位喔好議文傳播處亮美玲在這裡剛剛舒喬委員關心到利用流行的這個趨勢流行文化來結合推廣客家語言"},{"start":18229.674,"end":18258.937,"text":"目前在客家委員會透過流行音樂走入校園我們每一年進入到校園裡面中小學包含高中大學來進行透過音樂融入在教學教育的現場裡面讓大家透過音樂來接觸客語這是一個部分另外我們也透過演唱會也包括結合了重要的這個大型的音樂節包含大崗"},{"start":18260.198,"end":18261.138,"text":"11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":18279.873,"end":18280.614,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":18303.43,"end":18316.96,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":18325.984,"end":18352.059,"text":"好欸那等一下等一下剛好你講了我我我剛好想到齁我記得好像你們有有有預算給客家歌手然後他可以到小學對不對去跟就在禮堂跟小朋友這樣唱各家客家歌嗎我記得那時候好像他們要找學校的時候你們還設定一定要什麼樣的客家小學其實你既然要推廣那個那個地方"},{"start":18353.069,"end":18366.685,"text":"假設同樣在一個鄉鎮那有些學校他沒有場地但另一個有你不是你推廣是針對好像限制太多了你那樣不普及啊"},{"start":18368.855,"end":18389.412,"text":"謝謝主席的關心當然客家歌手到校園去我們其實沒有太嚴格的限制我們當然鼓勵他能夠深入到客家莊去因為孩子能夠接觸客家流行歌手機會也才會有這個機會第一類接觸包含學習音樂聽客家歌同時可能激發他們在藝術的學養跟素養"},{"start":18391.496,"end":18392.997,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":18416.926,"end":18417.266,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":18441.897,"end":18443.418,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":18464.357,"end":18485.933,"text":"應該是吧?對啊。對對對。第一案、第二案嘛。所以沒有意見就麻煩就照我的通過啦。那接著稅出部分第十項。不用說明。不用說明。你說貿易第三款、第四款。對啊。"},{"start":18488.635,"end":18492.898,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":18520.161,"end":18543.833,"text":"對針列220對針列220來接著我們進入第10項客家委員會所屬的只有兩岸來來建兵委員謝謝主席主席這邊本席在第10項提出兩個那個一個就是針對我們那個客會的那個"},{"start":18545.302,"end":18567.29,"text":"在第三個案就是在媒體宣傳這部分那其實我們有我記得在上回期有比較過客戶會跟園民會兩個委員會在做這個宣導上確實客戶會在做影片都比較精緻那也很用心不過他的數據還是不夠我覺得他數據不夠是要請我們我們要請這個那個客戶要檢討一下未來是不是要滾動式去檢討說你怎樣讓你的宣傳效果能夠達到那"},{"start":18574.246,"end":18575.407,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":18593.103,"end":18611.732,"text":"要減掉預算31萬9千元這兩個部分因為剛好主席特別在開始的時候說我們希望能夠來支持客委會那臺東其實客家族群也佔了五分之一那我就配合主席的意見我這邊沒有太多堅持按照主席的意識以上就先"},{"start":18612.572,"end":18614.113,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":18642.492,"end":18649.077,"text":"禮拜五我們才收到啦那我有請同事要去跟委員們說明啦那書面出來以後有給辦公室但是禮拜六禮拜天就沒有沒有上班啊那所以所以這個部分"},{"start":18668.612,"end":18690.166,"text":"我請同仁現在跟我講我徵求各位委員因為這一個確實啦我們那個那時候本來這個是排禮拜四結果後來陰錯陽差我們排禮拜一嘛我們是不是現在先開放時間你們全案跟全部的委員先溝通溝通完我們尊重委員他們最後的決議這樣好不好"},{"start":18690.726,"end":18701.298,"text":"我先開放時間啦我要徵求在座的委員可不可以欸你們先等一下啦我徵求一下也要委員點頭啊可以嗎你們有沒有不同意見還是怎麼樣"},{"start":18707.286,"end":18733.38,"text":"欸你們等一下啦我先詢問一下我們這邊委員都OK我們先溝通一段時間再開始給委員發言你們覺得這樣會比較好好不好這樣然後就你們就有些案要堅持還是要主決議要撤至少還有一點時間等一下我還是尊重一下我要所有委員OK我們才進行我想請問一下丁委員可以嗎"},{"start":18735.066,"end":18736.387,"text":"我現在來講吧"},{"start":18769.222,"end":18774.729,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":18789.547,"end":18792.488,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":18807.853,"end":18811.355,"text":"我一幕就提一個案啊一幕一幕一幕"},{"start":18835.743,"end":18840.728,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":18878.705,"end":18883.587,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時"},{"start":18895.801,"end":18895.821,"text":"第10項"},{"start":18922.045,"end":18924.346,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":18947.215,"end":18967.074,"text":"第10項就是第3案第4案改組決議那我們黃建斌委員說一定要專案報告是不是是書面還是好書面報告組決議書面報告好第3案第4案就這樣那我們接著來進行第一幕來第一幕"},{"start":18968.047,"end":18994.36,"text":"有那個要發言的委員好那我們請張志龍委員接著徐宇貞委員好謝謝主席齁那我針對這個第一幕提出第五案喔我不要就快速啦因為今天大家時間寶貴我想要請教一般行政部分文書客服管理檔案喔為什麼會委外340萬那這些東西應該不需要委外那另外有些資訊服務費跟軟硬體支出防火牆這些有重複編列喔所以我提出簡列500萬齁請行政單位趕快解釋齁謝謝"},{"start":18998.772,"end":19012.863,"text":"來請徐宇貞委員等一下你們一併回答我提出的是第7案針對這個這次的客家委員會的一般行政的政府特別首長費就四萬五千元主要是因為在之前"},{"start":19013.844,"end":19038.053,"text":"客家委員會主委針對財政收支劃分法修正之後與公開的活動跟媒體前頻頻發表不當的言論影響民眾的情緒也造成民眾的誤解。會釐清並避免誤解擴大,所以先凍結該預算等客家委員會及所屬在一個月內向本月內政委員會提出專案報告並經同意後時的動之。"},{"start":19040.094,"end":19068.112,"text":"好那這樣只有張志倫委員的要說明請請說明就只針對張志倫委員的說明請好我我是客會秘書室的雷耀龍主任那針對張張委員的這種提案那有關於這個這個文書客服及檔案管理的這個委外事務因為這個因為本會的編制時代很小"},{"start":19068.832,"end":19088.885,"text":"我們文書科跟事務科律書室總共只有9位編制內的同仁那我們的文書檔案是每年不斷在增加不斷當然預算增加人員增加了業務也又增加了文書檔案自然也就增加了那以現有的人力很難去負荷這麼大的一些數目性的工作而且還要辦一些客服接電話的服務這客服的服務我們有聘請專門的客語的人員來做電話的服務"},{"start":19096.33,"end":19118.318,"text":"至於大堆事實上這些事物它並非本會的核心業務而且我們人事行政總局每年都很希望說對於各業務它非核心的業務它盡量希望能夠委外去辦理而不要去增加編制內的人員那基於這種種的考量所以我們才會在幾年前我們把這個相關的業務把它委外去處理"},{"start":19119.238,"end":19147.768,"text":"那因為因應著明年的基本工資會調高嘛那還有軍公教人員也調薪所以相對的我們對這種委外人員的這種他薪資的結構我們也相應提高所以在這個部分我們我們114年叫113年增加了13萬元所以這個部分這個部分也是因為業務業務上的需要需要處理這麼龐大的業務都都都屬於事務性的工作他並非本會的核心業務的工作"},{"start":19149.056,"end":19159.058,"text":"那所以說相應的會調整他的薪資結構然後把它調稍微增加13萬這個是有關於文書客服的部分那另外資訊的部分"},{"start":19162.492,"end":19178.731,"text":"委員你好我是中華國務大處的陳瑞榮處長那委員所垂詢的在一般行政費用資訊服務費跟資訊軟硬體的費用有重複那我在這邊跟委員做一下報告資訊服務費其實是業務費我們大概編列1900萬"},{"start":19180.393,"end":19207.344,"text":"主要是針對包含我們配合行政院的整個資安雲端資料中心的主機我們要去租賃他另外現在速發部對於資安要求的很嚴格所以這個部分我們其實經費並沒有增加另外有一個500萬的部分就是資訊設備費那個是屬於設備費就全會的同仁他可能明年度有一些個人的電腦、主機、印表機或者個人的伺服器到期"},{"start":19207.944,"end":19225.334,"text":"所以這個是一定要汰換否則會影響到這個我們的公務同仁在服務民眾的一些公務的品質所以這個部分兩個的使用的用途方向跟編列的這個內容其實是完全不一樣的以上說這樣的說明謝謝委員好那這樣說明"},{"start":19232.761,"end":19247.886,"text":"現在第一幕剛好刪案那因為那個徐宜臻委員這邊就凍結了那請未來報告之後再解凍那志倫委員是維持還是您最後做個決議決定"},{"start":19249.767,"end":19252.79,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":19274.068,"end":19286.086,"text":"接電話的人還要委外是發生什麼事情那第二個我剛還是有看到預算書裡面有防火牆這三個字有重複編列不過我可以簡略少一點大家可以討論一下謝謝你直接講了"},{"start":19287.881,"end":19292.205,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":19305.516,"end":19307.297,"text":"午9時至午9時至午9時至午9時至午9時至午9時至午9時至"},{"start":19330.419,"end":19335.563,"text":"主委趕快找徐委員再溝通一下好不好現在凍結50%我們再努力一下好不好謝謝"},{"start":19361.291,"end":19366.628,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":19370.173,"end":19393.223,"text":"就是那個剪裂100那個剪裂100真的影響太大因為現在治安真的太重要了所以我們在這個1900萬剪裂100的話那設備費是大家同仁都一定要用的電腦這些如果主機已經壞掉等等我們沒辦法太萬真的會影響公務的推行是不是可以都都"},{"start":19393.763,"end":19419.936,"text":"多達的建議就是說是不是用凍結一百萬讓我們提出書面的報告?他剛剛說我們接電話的要委外的原因是什麼?這個說明一下那個因為是名稱叫客服嘛當然就是我們是把它放在我們的服務櫃台我們的窗口那邊所以它不單只是接聽電話它同時也包括直接第一線的在櫃台的為民服務"},{"start":19421.056,"end":19438.401,"text":"有任何異常資訊﹖ 重點不是說明這個,他是說一定要委外,我們自己沒有人是不是﹖ 剛剛張委員的意思啊﹖ 因為其他同仁都有辦起一些,就是這些比較屬於對外服務的,需要門面櫃台的,需要有人接待訪客的"},{"start":19439.701,"end":19440.361,"text":"5時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":19469.243,"end":19493.788,"text":"那張委員您看檢列100還是什麼?好,我是因為支持我們張委學習委員所以改動100好不好?我們都很支持客家,動100就是把這個未來真的要多請一些這個公務人員是會講客語的啦,不要說其實他們會講客語,只不過說我們會特別會要求會民服務要客的好啦"},{"start":19494.988,"end":19498.11,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":19526.73,"end":19541.284,"text":"我們新北的要多支持新北的客會會的預算書面報告經同意書面但是要經同意好不好那我們特別費的最後結論怎麼樣"},{"start":19560.346,"end":19562.347,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":19580.806,"end":19609.152,"text":"第二案不予處理。第二案不予處理。那我們接著我們進入第二幕第二幕第二幕有要表達的請王美惠委員主席,第一,在我們這次選舉的時候我有說過不公正負責客家委員會裡面我認為他們要去改善因為要進行不定期的檢查啦跟你們的整個委員會裡面你們要掌握什麼"},{"start":19610.192,"end":19635.923,"text":"尤其在第12屆要多協助啦我雖然不是客家人可是我做支持客家人客家人是一個在我們台灣核心的族群他又謙虚又固執又如果族群社區都處理得很好所以說你看他們的醫生都很謙虚的幾位"},{"start":19643.988,"end":19666.945,"text":"所以王美惠委員的這個博工招呼站是誰?不是要你回答你要在那邊等於是接受我們王委員的指導然後再來就是我們嘉義市這裡要多支持好不好?客委會接下來我們請張志倫委員接下來徐宇貞委員"},{"start":19670.799,"end":19687.006,"text":"好謝謝主席喔那我提的是這個第二幕的第九案喔當我執行的時候也特別跟請那個谷主委說明齁就是我還是針對這個我們客委會每年都會有一個每三年四年都有一個國家客家發展計畫"},{"start":19688.927,"end":19710.8,"text":"這個真的之前上次的計畫是110年6月合定從110年到112年所以113年整個空白那剛有問過主委說現在最新的國家客家發展計畫是114年度才正式開始所以113年度整個就是國家的客家發展計畫整個是空白"},{"start":19711.22,"end":19716.564,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":19730.154,"end":19739.28,"text":"還沒有國家開展計畫還沒有公布實行之前我會先凍結這個該預算只有凍結1542萬8千元希望說這個計畫出來了以後讓用全臺灣用所有客家人了解到底凍結凍結凍結到底是什麼樣的計畫"},{"start":19750.527,"end":19771.667,"text":"不然沒有計畫的話已經延了一整年了再沒有出來的話我相信很多人都不能接受那我也請這個客委員會是不是在一個月內向內政委員會提出書面報告跟新一期的國家客家發展計畫提供給我們所有內政委員會的委員並經同意後始的動之以上謝謝你動多少1542萬8千就堅持是不是就維持這樣子"},{"start":19777.349,"end":19804.251,"text":"我想這個應該是我們因為這個東西沒有跟我們內政委員會所有委員報告我覺得是對我們來說內政委員會的委員不尊重啊因為113年整個空白了那114年的之前111年的事6月份就要公告現在113年沒有公告沒有計劃還要等到114年才有所以如果這個東西沒有出來的話沒有計劃的一個國家客家發展我不知道是什麼是國家客家發展謝謝"},{"start":19805.964,"end":19832.432,"text":"好那剛好喔剛好我們第8案到第13案喔第8案到第13案就是這整個喔是一樣的所以你們好好說明喔那那本本席這裡因為我我我這邊我剛已經這個部分我不堅持我們就按章志倫委員等一下喔所以你們先好好說明好不好那那因為因為沒有沒有你是同一個案嗎李博義委員"},{"start":19834.645,"end":19854.313,"text":"我們現在因為剛好志倫問到到第13嘛對8到13所以是8到13剛好這一整個而且這經費一億多就乾脆整體你報告完我們最後到13這邊做一個結論然後接著後面的再給你們說明同一幕同一幕同一幕同一幕"},{"start":19861.428,"end":19867.993,"text":"對你有啊你有你有只是你很少了10萬人家1000多你請說不是不是啦吼我是覺得吼這個吼不是說吼不支持你們只是吼我覺得吼這一個吼你們吼"},{"start":19880.565,"end":19881.546,"text":"來請說明好嗎行政單位"},{"start":19906.966,"end":19933.106,"text":"是,剛剛委員所垂詢的部分確實在客家基本法有規定每4年要嚴定國家客家發展計畫但今年比較是最特別的就是說113年的5月20號新政府上任之後那我們在上一個計畫是在去年的年底到期但原則上應該是從今年的開始在起期不過現在碰到一個問題就是行政院同步在"},{"start":19934.226,"end":19958.739,"text":"指導全國的行政機關有研定一個國家發展計畫他是4年期114年到117年所以當時在我們內部研議的時候才為了整個行政一體的統一我們參考了行政院在8月15號抱怨核定的國家發展計畫的整個綱要的架構然後再納入賴總統的六支箭以及國家希望工程的內容"},{"start":19959.339,"end":19985.695,"text":"然後在9月份我們會請各部位表示意見之後10、11月完成人內部的草案修正在12月目前已經報院來審議中所以這個部分是不是懇請大院因為我們確實有積極在進行那我們也必須要基於這個新政府上任的時候有一些新的客家措施跟新的公佈的政見在年期的部分因為是4年所以我們把它跟行政院整個這個國家發展計畫是一致的"},{"start":19988.857,"end":20016.086,"text":"所以這個部分目前計畫都已經出來那至於剛剛張委員所提示需要能夠看到全貌跟說明的部分我想客會這邊可以全力來配合這個是沒有問題的以上可以全力來配合什麼就是提書面報告提書面一個月提書面報告跟提出整個國家計畫發展的這個向內委會的部分提出整個我們的計畫內容以上哦好那張委員就這樣囉好動"},{"start":20018.938,"end":20047.234,"text":"最後決議對他說他可以在一個月內提出書面報告好那最後動動多少我們就一到八到十十三八到十三案總共就動一張委員說的你剛剛你請說你要我們是要八到十三還是我們等一下整幕來處理啦就比較快好不好"},{"start":20048.336,"end":20073.348,"text":"沒有啦。我們現在就是每個委員我們都尊重嘛。那只是因為8到13剛好就只有張委員。對啊,最大比張委員啦。其實我也很大比,但我就支持我們客委會啦。所以就看張志倫了。然後等一下我馬上你們14到17可以給你們說啦。那志倫委員怎麼樣?對,你動多少?"},{"start":20079.244,"end":20080.685,"text":"8到13就用一個啊接下來講接下來講接下來講"},{"start":20109.765,"end":20134.645,"text":"沒有啦我們現在就一個一個就往下了好不好沒啦好來接下來越不一樣的8到13並按處理是不是8到13最後我們只就是以張志倫委員而且他就寫1500就寫1500就好其他其他都不予處理"},{"start":20136.787,"end":20137.707,"text":"建議只要一千就好了"},{"start":20162.773,"end":20187.073,"text":"14、15、16、17"},{"start":20188.423,"end":20201.818,"text":"十六、十七剛好委員不在所以十四、十五、十六、十七剛好不在喔那你要講嗎?不然就過去囉第十七案我是有連署我是針對這個博工造戶的這一筆經費那希望"},{"start":20207.003,"end":20221.996,"text":"客家委員會這邊可以跟衛福部這邊做比較密切的聯繫因為我在地方推動這個長照西據點其實以高雄市為例長照西據點一開始推案量非常多接下來就是管理的問題"},{"start":20222.837,"end":20239.553,"text":"那我想客委會這邊一樣有碰到這個問題齁那其實我們希望把量做大但我們希望還是鼓勵展備出門而不是去管理說這個站有幾個展備出來把這個特色做出來才是我希望可以鼓勵客委會的所以"},{"start":20239.973,"end":20266.656,"text":"在這個第17案以及我在之後的73案的這個主決議那希望客委會可以把這個博工照護站的這個計畫跟衛福部好好的來做聯繫把特色做出來那這一筆預算那就給予支持那也希望剛剛主席雖然是才是到13案那我們也希望到17案齁就維持那個1000萬的凍結就好了14到17就不要再凍了謝謝"},{"start":20273.493,"end":20297.902,"text":"凍結1500到13張委員是說1500對好那14到17那本席剛剛已經有宣稱我不堅持的都是保留保留就是給你們寫主決意來只要主決意來那個保留的就會就會支持你們但是這所以我保留我並不是撤我就是保留然後等你們的主決意來"},{"start":20299.062,"end":20302.145,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":20322.878,"end":20344.347,"text":"他支持所以不處理,我說就不用處理。對,對,對,不要變嘛,就不處理。對,不處理,好好好。好,那就這樣,好。那我們進入第三幕,第三幕。18到27,來,現在有沒有委員,好,來,那張志文委員然後接著徐宇貞委員。"},{"start":20346.723,"end":20364.774,"text":"好謝謝主席吼那我們現在討論到第三幕吼我有提出第24案吼就有關於第三幕客家文化發展客家文化產業發展的部分吼我們一幕邊的這個12億的經費吼那裡面其中有這個辦理客庄特色產業及國際觀光行銷推展事業邊的6100萬吼較去年5300萬增加了751萬左右"},{"start":20370.097,"end":20371.679,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":20393.399,"end":20410.817,"text":"如果是同樣的浪漫台三線站的活動其實對國際觀光沒有太大的增幅那剛剛你們有過來溝通說你們等一下可以再解釋一下你們還要增加哪一個站那以及針對國際觀光旅客是否可以未來增加有提出目標如果可以的話我就願意改成主決議以上謝謝"},{"start":20412.807,"end":20425.892,"text":"好那接著請徐議長委員謝謝主席本席在這一幕提出的是第20案跟第26案那第20案的部分主要是針對這個客庄創生及環境營造計畫這個部分因為其實我們"},{"start":20430.814,"end":20446.764,"text":"了解就是客委會補助地方的辦理客庄創生跟環境營造計畫的相關工程到113年12月25號為止還有7項的工程沒有完工那各位可以看一下這個計畫的時程其實大部分都應該要在"},{"start":20448.625,"end":20450.226,"text":"114年度的補助預算甚至不減反增還增加了25.23%那如果在"},{"start":20469.353,"end":20486.389,"text":"這個部分的話我覺得看起來是目前這針對這些工程都有我覺得客委會都應該有這個督導不周的狀況那也請客會說明為什麼管考不立那尤其是又單位應該自己追蹤並督促地方政府要求廠商加速辦理"},{"start":20486.849,"end":20490.052,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":20504.927,"end":20530.022,"text":"國外的旅費因為這個部分是指說我們要在英國這個考察社區推動模式與發展計畫那針對這個部分我是覺得就是說英國的社區考察的經濟發展模式要怎麼樣能夠導入客庄社區的經濟發展那目前我看不出來兩個的關聯性那是不是能夠說明一下以上"},{"start":20535.294,"end":20562.729,"text":"還有沒有委員針對我們第三目18到27案?其實只剩趙偉跟我而已啊。那你來。我看你呢。我的我已經講過我的就是保留他只要主決一來我我這樣我保留送協商但是你主決一來在協商的時候我就就不處理。保留送協商沒關係送協商的時候第一個我如果說"},{"start":20563.837,"end":20589.694,"text":"下午9時至上午9時至上午9時至下午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":20592.722,"end":20596.004,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":20607.573,"end":20623.862,"text":"我先從最後面來說明一下就是有關我們出國經費的這個部分因為那個社區營造的部分事實上全世界最先這個開始社區營造的國家就是英國事實上後來才是日本去英國學習然後我們來"},{"start":20625.063,"end":20650.218,"text":"去跟日本學習的那因為日本就是英國就是整個社區營造一直到創生發展的最先驅的一個國家那事實上我們從社區總體營造一直到現在目前整個創生社區創生的這樣子的一個過程裡面那事實上現在社區碰到的問題事實上是整個經濟要怎麼樣留在社區就是不要讓社區的發展"},{"start":20651.579,"end":20653.381,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":20675.46,"end":20677.022,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":20705.825,"end":20732.466,"text":"做這個城市農場的一個社區去做一個觀摩之後希望將來在客庄的發展上面我們也能夠把這種經驗帶回到我們的這個客庄裡面把這種比較先進還有比較有創意的一個這個創生的一個發展能夠將來能夠引到我們的客庄裡面把將來在政府的資源投出的時候也能夠把這個經濟留在我們的客庄的一個社區裡面"},{"start":20733.764,"end":20758.8,"text":"這次有關這個出國計劃的一個部分那另外在徐委員垂詢到就是有關工程那個部分那事實上因為我們這個當那時候統計當然早上主委有說過就是說因為事實上工程的進度都是由地方政府來報過來的那我們就依照他們的進度來做列管那目前"},{"start":20760.381,"end":20784.193,"text":"這些提案裡面會跨到明年的部分現在只有新竹市的香山新竹市的香山他因為建造的關係所以他必須要到明年的4月他才能夠完工那其他的案子的話目前他在12月底以前他們都會來跟我們報結案像屏東的那個什麼啊林洛商工所不是說還在招標作業中嗎"},{"start":20785.61,"end":20805.432,"text":"那個我們會測案林若相公所就109林若相公所那個他們他們有有那是只有設計他們設計案今年會完成沒有問題因為他不是全部都有工程110年嘛對不對"},{"start":20806.509,"end":20823.434,"text":"對所以我的意思就是說這個部分的話大概看起來很多工程都有延宕而且像事實上目前的看起來就是說有些計劃應該不知道是因為督導不周還是怎麼樣狀況所以我覺得應該是針對這個部分我是建議還是要凍結26項我同意改組決議"},{"start":20833.029,"end":20848.029,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":20848.049,"end":20849.209,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":20870.796,"end":20895.447,"text":"委員報告,事實上這個我們執行那麼多年以來的經驗,那這個部分省紀部也有跟我們提醒過,所以我們這個部分在管控的部分,我們現在是對地方政府的管控從他們的提案一直到這個設計規劃一直到工程的執行,甚至到營運管理,我們現在事實上在研考的部分,我們都每一個關卡事實上都有比較"},{"start":20896.707,"end":20923.978,"text":"延期的一個管控這個問題是不能說完全不會發生因為有些地方政府他還是會因為他們部分特別的因素會產生但是大部分現在我們大概整個工程的進度針對他提案之後兩三年的進度我們大概都還能夠算能夠比較精準的一個掌握所以這個部分我們請委員放心如果能夠讓我們提書面說明的話再做一個解凍的話"},{"start":20925.76,"end":20941.159,"text":"是不是可以用這樣子的一個方式來做一個處理?好,請問徐委員怎麼樣?他剛剛有詢問是不是是書面還是專案?那個26是已經主決議了嗎?對,他主決了。"},{"start":20945.287,"end":20945.927,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":20959.122,"end":20961.804,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":20978.411,"end":20992.112,"text":"自行車賽一直以來我們都是在辦在浪漫台山線當然浪漫台山線這個路線現在已經變成這個自由車國際賽裡面很重要的一條路線那我們因為"},{"start":20993.394,"end":20995.336,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21011.834,"end":21012.294,"text":"二十四案改組決議是不是?"},{"start":21050.111,"end":21074.416,"text":"2、3、2、3跟2、7不一處的那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個"},{"start":21078.208,"end":21081.149,"text":"9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時"},{"start":21108.389,"end":21125.568,"text":"二十九二十二十二三好那現在宣告一下好了請專委宣告一下第三目部分第十八案不予處理第十九二十二三"},{"start":21128.752,"end":21143.76,"text":"跟二期併案凍結10%出名包合金同意後死者凍資。然後第21案保留。對。第22案改組決議。第24案改組決議。第26案改組決議。25萬有沒有那個?25萬不予處理。對。25萬不予處理。好。OK。那我們現在進入第4幕。第4幕。"},{"start":21157.679,"end":21162.444,"text":"是從28到41案請各位委員請丁薛忠委員"},{"start":21166.666,"end":21187.705,"text":"第4目我是針對35案是針對客家委員生殖計劃這個是希望推動客家委員普及從小學從小學習課以後執行4年來已經給你20幾億但參加的幼兒園數量跟血統成長數都很有限這些小朋友通過"},{"start":21188.726,"end":21199.465,"text":"客委會自己幹的認證比例也很低所以提案凍結一千萬希望能提出改建專案高告讓客宇推動人家更有效。"},{"start":21205.433,"end":21224.731,"text":"來請徐宇貞委員然後接著張志倫委員接著蘇巧慧委員謝謝主席本席在這一幕當中提出的是第39案也是有關國外旅費的部分這邊是指在客家語言發展的部分希望今年要編列42萬到芬蘭去考察"},{"start":21225.511,"end":21236.218,"text":"雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語教育及少數語言保存計劃。雙語"},{"start":21253.66,"end":21266.519,"text":"好接下來請張志倫委員好謝謝主席齁那如果提出第第24案齁其實剛剛很多委員都有提欸不是對不起有提出29案"},{"start":21269.366,"end":21296.853,"text":"剛剛很多委員都有提到就是針對我們臺灣的客語發展業務每年編列7億多的預算那主要就推動客語通行警獎勵那有編的業務費2300萬獎補助費7400萬總共9700多萬可是現在大家剛剛有很多委員在講這個客語能力認證應符合在地比例在地客家人人口比例而且然後另外一個是行政院會各部會"},{"start":21297.853,"end":21305.58,"text":"就是有說客以為通行與及地區公務人員通過客語能力認證比例是很低的所以顧名思義就是說其實"},{"start":21306.897,"end":21310.019,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21333.131,"end":21340.236,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":21349.962,"end":21356.108,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":21367.478,"end":21369.219,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21396.181,"end":21400.545,"text":"提出白寫書面或改成專案報告後。就這樣,謝謝。所以是書面,改成專案,從書面改專案。好,接著請蘇巧慧委員。"},{"start":21413.271,"end":21433.601,"text":"好謝謝那我這裡提出的案子呢其實是有33跟34那其實33剛剛也是已經有做了討論那所以針對這個學習客語的部分那是不是能夠用政策引導客家語言的學習然後去考試的這部分剛剛已經有說了"},{"start":21435.102,"end":21435.302,"text":"三十三已經確定改組決議。"},{"start":21464.761,"end":21466.543,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21479.355,"end":21508.069,"text":"那以新北市來講因為我們沒有客庄所以我們所能夠對應的都是非客庄的計畫好那這樣非客庄計畫下來了以後我們才會覺得說那最能夠還聚合大家來做客家一起做客家文化事務的就是社團這個邏輯是這樣拖延下來的嘛我們沒有客庄所以我們最重要的是客家社團可以凝聚最多人所以我認為應該要把資源放在客家社團"},{"start":21508.809,"end":21536.769,"text":"那能夠去推動青年和兒少事務的客家社團應該得到更多的補助這是我整套的邏輯所以我想要請主委甚至請客委會這邊能夠回應我的是客委會現在有的相關計劃不管是一般型的或者是這種計劃型的補助相關的業務哪一些到底能夠回應我這一個訴求"},{"start":21538.57,"end":21567.449,"text":"我想要的是這樣的資料那今天早上主委也已經回應了部分那可是我因為我相信您能夠知道的是相當的多所以是不是能夠用書面回應給我我要有留存那如果主委您這邊等一下能回應一下說欸確定我們彼此了解的東西是一樣的那我這個案子我同意改組決議直接就是不再做凍結這樣子的部分那但是我希望你主委的高度客委會的全面性給我一個完整的說明謝謝"},{"start":21571.018,"end":21577.134,"text":"好那是不是主委先回覆因為剛剛有的不用好那請主委回覆"},{"start":21580.267,"end":21607.426,"text":"謝謝委員確實那個都市的客家是不容易因為它是分散的那特別又是在青年跟兒少又更不容易那整個都是個別化了那我們要把它那個整個要群體化需要有方法那那個方法會分散在我們每一個計畫因為客會的幾乎是每一個計畫它不是一般性"},{"start":21608.787,"end":21622.718,"text":"對那因為對不起主委我再打查一下等於是補充一下因為像這次能夠給我們的這個6個回應裡面6項計畫其實有4項是在學校推動的一項是由地方政府推動的所以只有第6項推動客與社區營造計畫才有機會是跟社團有關係"},{"start":21627.401,"end":21628.201,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21654.514,"end":21654.934,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":21681.476,"end":21682.196,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21707.908,"end":21709.45,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21728.435,"end":21736.021,"text":"我首先剛剛委員所提到的幼兒園的沉浸式的這個教學的部分其實我們從106學年度開始開辦這個計畫從當時的61個園所到到113年是已經新增到"},{"start":21744.767,"end":21749.25,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":21761.818,"end":21763.919,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21791.033,"end":21794.415,"text":"11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21815.964,"end":21816.624,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21846.324,"end":21848.985,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":21869.676,"end":21896.85,"text":"這個部分就是會有就是他們一個就是他們的整個制度上面的一個規範另外還有就是他們教學的一個模式他如何讓這個雙語一點點雷同的話我覺得學習可能也會有限吧是不是可以就是到改到其他事實上是有有跟針對這個雙語的部分或他們針對這個主語的保存是有比較有經驗甚至跟我們比較相似的地方這樣會不會比較適當"},{"start":21898.126,"end":21898.726,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":21924.658,"end":21945.956,"text":"到世界的各地看更多的國家他們如何去推動他們的這樣的一個雙語的一個教學的一個模式原則上我是可以改組決議但是就是我覺得還是針對到什麼地方我覺得還是一定要有效果好不好這部分我們一定會讓他的這個效果是讓是可以符合我們這樣的一個計劃的目的"},{"start":21952.81,"end":21959.872,"text":"提到的這個公教人員的通過客語能力認證那因為其實我們從109年開始推動通行語的這樣的一個辦法在"},{"start":21965.874,"end":21989.485,"text":"全國的公教人員的這個符合度是從當年度的13%到目前有17.4%。客庄的公教人員的符合度從109年的29%到112年有到45%。那其實每年都一直在進步當中。那所以這個部分因為"},{"start":21990.485,"end":22002.9,"text":"我們也會持續的一個就是像包括就是各縣市還有客庄地區請他們加強這一部分的一個提升"},{"start":22006.795,"end":22024.587,"text":"好,謝謝,這個是處長。是原發展署處長。處長,這您回答的回應我不能接受,因為這我剛剛有跟您特別報告,這預算中心的這個報告就寫說執行狀況不好。那很多的解讀都不一樣,你用別的方式去解讀,可是跟預算中心提出來的內容就大相徑庭。"},{"start":22025.647,"end":22034.717,"text":"本期是希望說當然我希望你們好好改善才能有改善計劃我覺得是比這個冷冰冰的數字來得更有幫助謝謝"},{"start":22036.854,"end":22055.927,"text":"好那本席這邊可能也要提一下好我有我是第38案我本來保留我看我可能可以跟張志倫併案因為他那邊動7000萬嘛好那專案報告因為本席特別提出來就說哎你們你們要發展客家語言而且希望推廣"},{"start":22057.088,"end":22082.76,"text":"你獎補助費為什麼114年就明年比今年減少了3000萬你的獎補助費減少3000萬直轄市少掉1000萬其他非直轄市少掉2000萬可是你這3000萬增加在業務費為什麼你那業務費3000萬做什麼然後獎補助變少剛剛大家都覺得要多鼓勵啊多鼓勵啊是不是處長說一下"},{"start":22084,"end":22111.358,"text":"好跟委員報告主要會有兩個部分第一個部分目前我們對學校的補助是以學年度補助所以等於就是113學年就是補助了之後會一直到114年的7月的那這個部分會做保留但是我們通常會遇到一個狀況到了114學年會有很多的學校地方政府將錢還回來客委會"},{"start":22114.24,"end":22115.201,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":22140.759,"end":22141.899,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":22166.127,"end":22167.928,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":22193.197,"end":22214.046,"text":"因為今天時間的關係因為我們張委員有一個專案你在專案的時候可能再詳細的把學校他們的困難還有你們的業務費怎麼樣把它變成一個推動費用詳細的你在專案報告的時候來讓我們了解好不好我就併案了我就不保留我直接併案到張委員這裡"},{"start":22216.411,"end":22219.434,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":22240.752,"end":22241.713,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":22269.65,"end":22270.671,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":22283.871,"end":22287.352,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":22311.823,"end":22335.359,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":22336.727,"end":22351.658,"text":"我們預算本來就少了本來50萬其實都多了啦從3500降到一半再減一點1000一半是1750啦我再把750砍掉剩1000張委員好不好同意啦7000到1000欸這真的是"},{"start":22361.866,"end":22379.471,"text":"剩下十來趴而已。就原本期間的十,十趴多一點。好不好?好,謝謝委員。好,專案。好,那我們請專委宣告一下。第四幕。好,第四幕的部分。第33、34、39、40、41改組決議。第28、29、30、31、32、35、36、37、38並案。凍結一千萬元。提專案報告經同意後,使得凍結。好,那我們進入第五幕。"},{"start":22398.203,"end":22402.889,"text":"來第5幕請丁學臻委員然後張志倫委員徐宇臻委員"},{"start":22405.219,"end":22433.396,"text":"感謝主席。第五目是客家藝文傳播推展。我提出在51和54案這項目是近年來成長最多的預算科目。最主要是新增了開設影視作品來推廣客家形象和語言。在客委會預算比例越來越高。像是越進主流文化要開旗艦級影視作品。"},{"start":22434.096,"end":22446.501,"text":"明年預算增加了快一倍像這麼高的預算作品的效益有多少讓人家感到懷疑應該請客委會提出說明所以這個項目凍結一億請客委會提出專案告告另外57案也有一個計畫是增加族群行銷社會議題實驗經費3000多萬"},{"start":22460.652,"end":22486.659,"text":"相比明年度新增了2000多萬內容是推動線上行銷專案要提升客家能見度只有2000萬應該要去全台各地做更有效的實地推廣這一點經費在網路通路買廣告一下子就沒有了這裡也提案凍結1000萬希望客委會提出專案報告"},{"start":22489.977,"end":22490.64,"text":"好接著請張志倫委員"},{"start":22493.452,"end":22513.984,"text":"好謝謝主席我要跟主委跟大哥委員報告就是這個現在在討論的第46案第5幕就是藝文傳播推展編列了16億的經費那我這本席提議點列2300萬原因剛剛有特別在質詢的時候提到其中媒體政策宣導費在114年編列了9200多萬相較113年的"},{"start":22522.189,"end":22547.15,"text":"690000增加了2300多萬以及我剛剛在質詢的時候才發現我們113年到11月執行的這個媒體業務及宣導費執行到3000多萬在12月在113年12月要再執行3000多萬剛剛也特別跟主委講這樣子的預算編列跟使用執行的狀況非常的奇怪那114年還要再增加2300多萬"},{"start":22549.071,"end":22574.834,"text":"我剛也拜託主委不能在這樣子的做法從1月到11月花預算花不到50%最後一個月馬上大筆一揮什麼都簽什麼都過什麼都花這都是人民的納稅錢所以我才會提議說114年所增列的這些媒體宣傳費不能再增加因為代表過去一直以來都沒有好好的去做使用去做核准人民的納稅錢所以我提議"},{"start":22576.315,"end":22589.183,"text":"這個而且客家人數使用一來一直下降所以沒宣費沒有達到效果那114年也沒有世界世界客家博覽或者大型活動的媒體需求所以因蹲劫政府支出提議減列2300萬元以上"},{"start":22597.676,"end":22610.761,"text":"我們接著請徐宇貞委員謝謝主席本席在這一幕提出的是有關藝文傳播推展的部分那這個其中它經典編列預算是16億12867千然後作為媒體政策跟業務宣導費的是92045千元"},{"start":22617.324,"end":22619.286,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至"},{"start":22638.624,"end":22664.5,"text":"那所以從媒體宣導的得票場案來看我覺得有過度集中在特定媒體的問題那我們也希望宣導的受眾的對象希望能夠全部都能夠涵蓋到而不要受到限制那所以說本席提出來凍結該項預算的10%那請客委會及所屬一個院內向立法院內政委員會求出專案報告並經同意後時的凍結謝謝"},{"start":22670.885,"end":22672.746,"text":"好,那請問還有沒有其他委員。好,那本席在這個第5幕也是有幾個案,我看一下。45跟49,還有52。對,所以我本席的是45跟49這個是要保留,這個保留,這兩案保留,對對對。"},{"start":22701.038,"end":22726.698,"text":"那請徐議長委員謝謝主席本期還有提出59案就是有關這個客家越境主流文化多元內容產業合作拓展計畫今年度總共編列3億3844萬照113年增加大概八成其中獎補助費大概編列2億501萬也比"},{"start":22729.5,"end":22748.456,"text":"去今年度113年度的預算數9025萬增加了1億1476萬增幅高達百分之127.16那因為其實早上我諮詢我也特別提到就是說以現在這個客委會的執行率明年編列更這個多了一"},{"start":22748.976,"end":22763.646,"text":"一百二十七趴的預算可能會加重該計劃執行率低落的問題所以提出該項目算數凍結百分之十也是等客委會一個月內將內政委員提出專案報告之後使得動之謝謝"},{"start":22774.991,"end":22787.543,"text":"好來請張志仁委員有議案那個55案你有說到55案這個議論傳播推廣客家傳播行銷的這個客家要進3億因為這就一樣啦這韓國也是一樣的這樣OK講過了"},{"start":22813.068,"end":22820.975,"text":"本期在這邊可能在說明前我可能也提一下就是說我們客家這邊傳播行銷喔就是第45萬這裡這邊講說"},{"start":22825.836,"end":22844.591,"text":"提升客與聲望相關政策宣導費用好像重複編略所以我們對客家的所有的活動還有各種推廣我們都非常的支持但是呢有關這個大內宣的費用"},{"start":22845.632,"end":22847.573,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":22872.27,"end":22875.011,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":22893.932,"end":22910.36,"text":"我先跟主席還有委員說明其實那個客會會有這個預算我來了之後有很深的感觸那個感觸是說在中央還沒有成立客會之前確實客家族群的自卑感非常的重"},{"start":22911.32,"end":22940.641,"text":"那客會成立之後花了很多的預算在重建這個族群的信心那也是因為透過這樣子的藝文活動或者媒體的宣傳不斷的在講客家的好跟美所以讓這個族群他恢復了自信那也比較敢走出來敢講我是客家人不然真的20幾年前不敢講的大家是躲起來所以我早上有說客家比較隱形就是這樣"},{"start":22941.722,"end":22962.563,"text":"一方面客家族群是比較能夠自我認同了能夠有信心了那非客家族群因為看到原來客家也有這個美跟好所以非客家族群也開始會認識跟欣賞這個客家的文化否則那是很安靜的一個社會"},{"start":22963.982,"end":22989.974,"text":"所以我為什麼現在先來這裡說這個的原因是這樣那我過去在地方完全是沒有宣傳經費的完全是沒有那來到中央看那個這中央這20幾年來花的預算在這裡是有這個效益所以才會才會有這樣的計劃下來那我比較能夠理解那同時我接了之後也是肯定這樣的做法會延續"},{"start":22991.175,"end":22992.956,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":23013.205,"end":23038.357,"text":"針對宣傳的費用的增加的部分特別在這裡跟委員做一個說明客委會所做的宣傳剛剛有提到語言聲望那語言聲望比如我們今年有特別結合星光三月全聯跟加勒虎有六大通路的賣場透過他們的商場可以讓客人在商場進入到生活"},{"start":23038.677,"end":23039.297,"text":"11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":23056.148,"end":23064.377,"text":"3時至4時至5時至6時至7時至8時至9時至11時至12時至13時至14時至14時至15時至16時至17時至18時至19時至20時至21時至22時至23時至24時至24時至25時至25時至26時至26時至27時至28時至29時至30時至30時至31時至31時至32時至31時至32時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時至31時"},{"start":23079.312,"end":23080.573,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":23108.547,"end":23118.029,"text":"下午9時至上午9時至下午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時"},{"start":23119.506,"end":23147.453,"text":"我們都非常支持可是你完全沒有回答到我們委員的問題第一個是為什麼今年到11月花了3000多萬到12月再花50%然後你明年還要再加2000萬的原因完全沒有回答到第二個徐宇貞委員提出來的這個從因為我跟主委跟各位處長報告要調這些資料非常不簡單也非常辛苦那我們都支持客家的預算可是針對獨厚特定媒體的部分完全沒有回應"},{"start":23148.453,"end":23166.642,"text":"所以我的意思是說是不是主委只要能同意未來這樣的做法能做改善其實我相信每個委員大家都同意你不能主委只講我沒有大內宣可是只是這些出來得標的情形讓人家很難不覺得大內宣阿好不好就是針對問題回答不然大家時間都寶貴謝謝"},{"start":23168.063,"end":23169.663,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":23194.449,"end":23196.371,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":23213.166,"end":23215.667,"text":"11月之前用了50%到12月這個問題是因為我們的活動就是依照活動那廠商執行做宣傳所以活動會比方說像12月28最後一場"},{"start":23236.917,"end":23265.409,"text":"12月28日前一場是在11月我們青年因為我們要推出青年政策11月底才再推出所以像這兩個大型的那執行完之後他才會來請款所以會因為這樣子而把預算留在後面的後面為款來支付是因為跟著項目而走所以我們看到童話記如果4月當然他就可以請一些款"},{"start":23266.169,"end":23272.82,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午"},{"start":23276.108,"end":23299.14,"text":"因為剛剛主委有特別提到我們絕對相信程序是沒有問題的公開招標也沒問題可是因為這是限制性招標所以就會有很多的空間可以去運作成為給特定媒體的所以這個部分我們希望說是不是能夠針對這個部分在新的年度114年度能夠給予比較公開公正公平的方式讓大家都能夠來招標"},{"start":23300.606,"end":23311.99,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午"},{"start":23321.874,"end":23349.641,"text":"好,那本席補充一下就是本席在49案是凍結10%大概是1800萬左右那為什麼這樣提呢?是因為本席發現在非直轄市的各縣市我們的這個客家藝文發展計畫中的經費逐年的減少我相信主委一定知道我們很多客家重點區"},{"start":23351.081,"end":23356.645,"text":"本期動輒的原因是,我們希望也是專案報告後才能動之。再來就是有一個動輒特別多的,動了4億的,這個是有關拍電影的。"},{"start":23373.436,"end":23399.061,"text":"喔對剛剛那個本席要講一下等一下是不是請客會請你們準備一下你們最新發表的那個客家形象影片好像才兩三分鐘你等一下播給大家看看大家看不看得懂剛剛一直講齁要把我們客家推廣然後我們過去很自卑然後現在要讓大家哇我看了我都看不懂所以我建議等一下三分鐘播出來給大家看一下齁"},{"start":23399.821,"end":23409.564,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":23421.988,"end":23422.468,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":23441.647,"end":23455.735,"text":"5時至6時至7時至8時至9時至11時至12時至13時至14時至15時至16時至17時至18時至19時至20時至21時至22時至23時至24時至24時至25時至26時至27時至28時至29時至30時至30時至31時至31時至32時至32時至33時至34時至34時至34時至35時至35時至35時至36時至36時至36時至37時至37時至38時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時"},{"start":23462.279,"end":23466.181,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬部分。二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":23479.187,"end":23488.839,"text":"好那因為這個第5幕呢我們發現好像凍結案都很多吼包含丁學中委員有凍結1億5000萬吼然後還有呃這個徐宇峥委員吼"},{"start":23499.716,"end":23522.717,"text":"10%也有1.6億那包含張志倫委員的所以現在看各個委員的意見怎麼樣本席的在這邊的我們就保留就保留除非有一樣的有要動的我才併案我就先保留其他你們看三位還有我們這邊民進黨的委員也看最後決定怎麼樣"},{"start":23527.534,"end":23527.714,"text":"3時15分再回來。"},{"start":23559.977,"end":23560.557,"text":"市議會、市議會都要檢視。"},{"start":23585.51,"end":23590.952,"text":"9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時至9時"},{"start":23613.587,"end":23617.37,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":23640.799,"end":23643.48,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":23669.23,"end":23676.837,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":23692.129,"end":23695.35,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":23710.274,"end":23715.036,"text":"5時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":23739.045,"end":23750.689,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":23756.771,"end":23760.134,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":23780.503,"end":23786.46,"text":"9時至9時至10時至11時至12時至13時至14時至15時至16時至17時至18時至19時至20時至21時至22時至23時至24時至24時至25時至26時至27時至28時至29時至30時至31時至32時至33時至34時至35時至35時至36時至36時至36時至37時至37時至38時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45"},{"start":23793.607,"end":23793.787,"text":"五點半應該是這個點"},{"start":23823.807,"end":23845.222,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":23846.603,"end":23853.971,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":23865.684,"end":23868.746,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":23882.876,"end":23892.279,"text":"臺灣情報臺灣民感恩拍中很高興臺灣民感恩拍中很高興臺灣民感恩拍中很高興"},{"start":23908.305,"end":23912.726,"text":"我最希望我的三政府是跟啦啦隊跳但是我是跟資深啦啦隊"},{"start":23932.655,"end":23942.887,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":23948.786,"end":23970.016,"text":"6時至9時至11時至12時至13時至14時至15時至16時至17時至18時至19時至20時至22時至23時至24時至25時至26時至27時至28時至29時至30時至31時至32時至33時至34時至35時至36時至36時至37時至38時至40時至40時至41時至42時至42時至43時至44時至44時至45時至45時至46時至46時至47時至47時至48時至49時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時至50時"},{"start":23971.417,"end":23999.373,"text":"我主要要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個月我主要給民視當二房東休息一個"},{"start":23999.973,"end":24001.114,"text":"8號或9號都不用審查?會時間拿出來?"},{"start":24027.532,"end":24027.692,"text":"海巡艦8號9號"},{"start":24050.994,"end":24059.04,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":24069.042,"end":24072.585,"text":"阿伯阿伯阿伯阿伯阿伯"},{"start":24092.517,"end":24095.398,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":24119.908,"end":24130.837,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。四、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。五、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。"},{"start":24142.5,"end":24145.802,"text":"沒有,你先講這一幕啦,先講這一幕我明天在哪呢?我還要講保簽"},{"start":24166.838,"end":24183.868,"text":"你白天有什麼要講?不是這樣,要期間,要期間會申請,都只見春雨啊、春秋啊、七點半會跳舞。我不要去會申請,我不要去參加會申請,我不要去參加會申請。因為我覺得跨年齁,申請是一個二十幾人的事,我們是有這個跨年,那幾個還要我做嗎?"},{"start":24197.938,"end":24198.76,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":24206.317,"end":24206.877,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":24236.637,"end":24245.387,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":24254.256,"end":24266.739,"text":"7時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":24282.404,"end":24297.676,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":24301.738,"end":24314.384,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":24329.131,"end":24333.215,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":24351.792,"end":24379.341,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":24380.501,"end":24400.775,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":24403.677,"end":24428.245,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":24450.235,"end":24469.881,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":24477.739,"end":24496.244,"text":"午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至"},{"start":24503.387,"end":24519.814,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分"},{"start":24545.201,"end":24552.948,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":24562.143,"end":24582.119,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":24588.865,"end":24609.004,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":24612.775,"end":24620.9,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":24628.141,"end":24635.286,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時去歷史化"},{"start":24656.813,"end":24662.414,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":24681.546,"end":24682.026,"text":"審查內容。"},{"start":24704.507,"end":24704.607,"text":"午10時至。"},{"start":24738.629,"end":24757.579,"text":"12月28日是重要的客家日。我們客委會推出的客家形象影片給我們張志倫委員、丁薛忠委員、徐宇貞委員、黃婕委員、王美惠委員、蘇曉慧委員。就你們來看一下我們這個說台語的看一下這個"},{"start":24758.92,"end":24760.881,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":24889.428,"end":24890.068,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":24915.14,"end":24937.193,"text":"大家好各位委員這支影片其實是那個我們要主打的是那個主流化下面一個全客語的概念就是說我們現在習慣用華語來溝通那我們想用它點醒說有沒有可能思考說如果你掉進他這個人就忽然掉進一個全客語的話他進教室發現哎呦他怎麼自己會講客語然後竟然用客語教英文"},{"start":24937.953,"end":24961.415,"text":"然後連手機的那個Siri也講客語然後他驚覺這件事情他發現連國際新聞都用客語在講然後他很驚訝自己在這個狀況下的時候然後出現了一個外星人然後外星人一開始講外星話後來是翻譯成客語嘛然後告訴說認識這個語言的世界我準備好了你準備好了嗎"},{"start":24961.755,"end":24987.073,"text":"其實我們只是一個形象要講12284全國客家日但其實我們想要賣的點就是說大家有沒有可能意味思考用客語來想想看我們現在習慣的語言模式以上意向很好概念很好"},{"start":24996.152,"end":25023.78,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":25025.451,"end":25026.813,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":25041.498,"end":25042.299,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":25077.551,"end":25088.819,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":25091.799,"end":25115.077,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央財政委員會及所屬部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央財政委員會及所屬單位預算。五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央財政委員會及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":25118.327,"end":25131.81,"text":"市長,請問一下,我們這個地方叫什麼?我們叫做巢仔巢仔巢仔我講巢仔就一直有人說,我們都很關心你講叫做巢仔,你怎麼講巢仔?你剛才說巢仔你怎麼講巢仔?"},{"start":25142.961,"end":25157.913,"text":"好現在繼續開會那我們剛剛溝通的結果我們這個第5幕除了個別保留的之外45、52保留其他併案53改組決議那其他就併案凍結3000萬那是專案還是書面"},{"start":25170.05,"end":25184.999,"text":"書面報告經同意後使得解凍。好,使得凍之。好,OK,我們這是第5幕,接著第6幕,那請各位委員表達。"},{"start":25196.31,"end":25197.431,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":25211.985,"end":25235.122,"text":"這個從今年度一月到九月入園的人數吼越來越有有比較少才100多萬人次跟疫情前的180多萬人次相去甚遠那所以我希望說這個客人會要加油打成全球客家博覽客家博物館跟生態博物館的目標所以我提議减呃動之百分之五以上謝謝好還有沒有"},{"start":25241.014,"end":25250.94,"text":"請王美蕙委員。主席,在此我會跟主委說的資料就是,這次的事件就是說,我們全台灣的客家文化園,"},{"start":25255.779,"end":25273.84,"text":"疫情進程至今,您要如何可以帶動到疫情進程人去的人數?您是不是內部要有什麼改變,有什麼好處理?不過我覺得"},{"start":25274.941,"end":25275.742,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案"},{"start":25289.464,"end":25292.866,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":25315.1,"end":25330.546,"text":"6時至9時至11時至12時至13時至14時至15時至16時至17時至18時至19時至20時至21時至22時至23時至24時至25時至26時至27時至28時至29時至30時至31時至32時至33時至34時至34時至35時至35時至35時至36時至36時至36時至36時至36時至37時至37時至38時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時至40時"},{"start":25333.991,"end":25363.156,"text":"沒有就全部併案啦好全部併案大家都為了他們好啦這個客家齁文化是還存在的你們那些博物館那些不要把他當成歷史博物館在經營對啊這個好像是在講過去的事情我覺得這是不應該的我們是活生生的講過很多次了啦我是覺得如果這樣大家都併案我看第六幕看這個大家稍微動一下好了啦"},{"start":25364.602,"end":25371.306,"text":"下午9時至上午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午9時至下午"},{"start":25406.307,"end":25407.369,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至。"},{"start":25416.052,"end":25444.06,"text":"好,因為我覺得這是我們這個委員會的委員都非常關心的事情,那我本來本席提議凍結5%,其實我也這個支持我們各位委員對客家事務的客家文化的這個支持,所以我提議凍結400萬就好。好,謝謝。好,那我們就照張志龍,那是解訟條件是專案還是書面?書面要同意嗎?好,書面報告經同意後時的凍結,好。"},{"start":25447.043,"end":25473.938,"text":"我們請專委宣告一下第6幕第6幕第6是案保留第7委員提案合併處理凍結400萬元向本會提出書面報告均同意核實的通知好最後我們進入第7幕都是主決議沒有沒有第7幕有第7幕只有1案那請張召委來來第7幕說明一下"},{"start":25476.339,"end":25504.493,"text":"簡單啦簡單啦謝謝各位委員跟主席第7幕是這樣我們是10年的三級機關但是我們沒有我們只有一台公務車那公務車已經27萬7千多公里了那按照程序我們跟行政院申請就可以再購買一台然後這次因為是首長的三級機關可以有首長車我們是用首長坐車的名義職業購買然後另外一部在當作一般公用以上簡單報告"},{"start":25505.713,"end":25512.916,"text":"暫時替客人會說27年的車了。我改組決議啦。對,組決議啦。改組決議啦。好,趕快買,27年了,趕快買。27萬公里。是走27萬公里。10年,10年,10年。我聽錯了。好,OK,OK。那第7幕請宣告。第7幕第68案改組決議。好,那最後,最後組決議的部分行政單位怎麼樣?是不是都照案通過?"},{"start":25538.841,"end":25542.765,"text":"主席。主席。主席。改三個月。"},{"start":25565.899,"end":25580.6,"text":"好其他委員或者是行政單位是不是我們主決議就照案通過除了69、70、71一個月改三個月之外"},{"start":25585.154,"end":25587.117,"text":"本次會議時間為上午9時至本次會議時間為上午9時至"},{"start":25602.077,"end":25630.046,"text":"同學,因為我們最主要的就是剛才張志倫委員說是要讓他們再做好,不是說要來他們山,要來他們百花百秋,是可以再做好,沒說實在,各位,我感覺說市民的意思,我感覺很辛苦,因為他們的錢很少,聽到主委,我真的感受到說,同學以前的同學以前真的他從來不要表態說,"},{"start":25631.687,"end":25635.308,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案"},{"start":25660.695,"end":25688.014,"text":"全世界、全台灣看到客家委員會的努力。以上。好,那剛剛網美會委員提的,那不在場的委員﹖李博裕委員有在,是不是您的要不要改三個月呢,還是就一個月?OK,可以,好,改三個月,好。好,73757,那其他的有沒有要﹖其他的不在的,我們可能也"},{"start":25689.525,"end":25690.886,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":25719.466,"end":25735.55,"text":"對,主委,是吧?徐宇堅委員,他有跟我講那個你的特別費的30%嘛,對,他跟你溝通好了差不多啦,差不多,他說30%比較少30萬是吧,好,那就30萬,好"},{"start":25744.892,"end":25745.492,"text":"現在我們請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":25774.882,"end":25798.859,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案客家委員會及所屬預算協商結論稅數部分第一案增列20萬第二案增列200萬稅數部分第10項第三次案改組決議第一幕第6案不予處理第5案凍結100萬元向本會提出書面報告經同意厚實的動之第7案凍結30%書面向本會提書面報告厚實的動之"},{"start":25805.216,"end":25826.833,"text":"第二幕綜合規劃發展第14案保留第15、16、17不予處理。第8到13案合併處理凍結1500萬元向本會提出書面包括經同意厚實的凍資。第三幕客家文化產業發展"},{"start":25828.649,"end":25852.374,"text":"第二十一案保留。第十八二十五案不予處理。第二十二、二十四、二十六案改組決議。第十九、二十、二三、二七委員提案合併處理。凍結10%向本會提出書面報告金同意厚實的凍資。第四目客家委員發展。第三十三、三十四、三十九、四十四、一案改組決議。"},{"start":25854.892,"end":25881.572,"text":"第二十八二九三十三一三二三五三六三七三八案委員提案合併處理凍結一千萬元向本會提出專案報告均同誘使的動之。第五目議文傳播推展第四十五五十二案保留第五十三案改組決議企業委員提案合併處理凍結三千萬元向本會提出書面報告均同誘使的動之。"},{"start":25884.622,"end":25903.836,"text":"第六目,客家文化發展中心規劃與運。第六十二案保留。其五委員提案合併處理。凍結400萬元,向本會提出書運報告金銅鑰匙的凍資。第七目,一般建築及設備。第六十八案改組決議。第八目,第一備金預算照列。組決議69、70、71、73、75、76修正文字通過。第72、74、77、78、79詐案通過。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":25913.339,"end":25938.015,"text":"好請問各位委員討論事項所列有關114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及其所屬部分及財團法人客家公共還沒審那個那個稍微那個稅務部分第三款第四款啊剛剛是是整個一起處理220萬還是"},{"start":25941.634,"end":25967.195,"text":"應該是一起吧沒有沒有沒有他本來是說3、4合起來220萬但是3、4沒辦法他們說沒辦法要到第7款所以那我就個別好了我就個別了他沒辦法3、4對對對所以就個別了本來你3、4可以我是認同的但是他說要改到第7那就不要那就還是照原列第3款第4款"},{"start":25969.141,"end":25970.842,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":25994.106,"end":26015.039,"text":"7款第7款你是到第7款對啊去跟主席趕快講一下好啦好啦好啦給你們方便來支持一下好啦就到第7款第7款好不好好啦第7款一起增加220萬那我們還沒審喔這個不然你就先念公務預算的部分這個等一下再念"},{"start":26019.982,"end":26023.704,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":26035.799,"end":26055.264,"text":"有委員提案的部分就照剛才我們專委宣讀的協商結論通過沒有提案的部分預算均照列請問有無異議無異議通過本次通過之決議文字授權主席以及議事人員整理"},{"start":26057.886,"end":26074.821,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分審查完略。拟據審查報告函付財政委員會提報院會。接下來我們就審財團法人客家公共傳播基金會預算。"},{"start":26078.299,"end":26093.284,"text":"來這邊好像只有不多嗎在場的好來只剩志倫志倫來你表達一下我稍微講一下好謝謝主席不要耽誤太多時間我針對這個客家公共傳播基金會他這個114年度的籌自籌預算是這個1500萬自籌支出1300萬"},{"start":26098.174,"end":26118.551,"text":"那可是我對過去112年的決算數我自籌的收入還低於有自籌的支出495萬那接下來我要跟請各位委員看一下這個客家傳播基金會有最近這幾年啊稅率稅出啊支出跟收入跟支出的部分的每一年都虧錢了每一年都虧錢了虧很大哦"},{"start":26119.598,"end":26145.357,"text":"前年亏1900萬,去年亏1600萬,今年亏900萬。所以有兩個問題,第一個,這個自籌支出,我們大家籌錢的時候怎麼會自籌的支出比自籌收入還大,那不要自籌比較快啊,越籌越沒錢。那第二個問題是為什麼我們基金會這三年連續都虧損,是不是有人應該出來解釋一下。基金會是用來虧錢的嗎?以上謝謝。"},{"start":26149.574,"end":26163.911,"text":"來是不是出來說明一下好這是陳董事長"},{"start":26165.844,"end":26180.198,"text":"主席還有委員我是基金會董事長陳邦正剛剛委員所指導的數字恐怕有一點點落差了"},{"start":26182.115,"end":26206.861,"text":"我們的這個自籌114年編列是1500自籌支出呢是1300我們現在這個這邊所列出來是這個112年這個自籌其實是有到720萬其實是事實上是比我們的這個租出多了很多了到113年的時候呢我們的自籌提高到1381萬"},{"start":26209.221,"end":26209.241,"text":"490萬元。"},{"start":26229.503,"end":26255.628,"text":"自籌支出495萬自籌支出是大於自籌收入所以請您再幫我看一下那第二個為什麼三年連續虧損那我其實有看到你自籌收入計畫裡面在第30頁裡面你有什麼國際合作業務我想請教你們真的有在執行嗎有啊有有那請會後我不是沒有什麼意見就是說你為什麼三年虧損你會後還是提一個書面報告給我們本委會的委員到底為什麼連續三年虧損"},{"start":26257.874,"end":26262.295,"text":"按自籌支出的部分明明就大於自籌收入。拜託你們再努力一下。"},{"start":26280.011,"end":26304.9,"text":"好那因為時間的關係我們是不是說本來要凍結一百一千三百萬我凍結一百萬提出書面報告後使得通知好不好好陳董事長加油啦好不好好我們凍結一百萬書面報告後使得通知好那"},{"start":26306.055,"end":26316.812,"text":"我們一到四案賣委員沒有在場那連署的委員也沒有在場所以我們就沒有處理好那我們這個算審查完畢來好"},{"start":26321.226,"end":26341.358,"text":"我們財團法人客家公共傳播基金會114年預算書案有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過沒有提案的部分預算均照列請問有無異議無異議通過那本次"},{"start":26343.015,"end":26353.957,"text":"本次通過的決議,文字授權主席以及議事人員整理。那財團法人客家公共傳播基金會114年預算書案已審查完略,擬據審查報告,提報院會公決,不須交由黨團協商並推請本席於院會討論時做補充說明。"},{"start":26374.195,"end":26385.287,"text":"那客家委員會及所屬預算已審訊相關人員可以離席跟委員會報告現在我們休息15分鐘後繼續處理中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":26391.462,"end":26398.008,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":26424.796,"end":26428.48,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":26454.704,"end":26478.701,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":26483.721,"end":26485.922,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":26515.636,"end":26515.836,"text":"來一樓中選會。議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":26543.067,"end":26546.169,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":26583.635,"end":26610.335,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":26617.093,"end":26623.605,"text":"8時至9時至10時至11時至12時至13時至14時至14時至15時至16時至17時至18時至19時至20時至21時至22時至23時至24時至24時至25時至26時至27時至28時至29時至30時至31時至32時至33時至34時至34時至35時至35時至36時至36時至36時至37時至37時至38時至40時至40時至40時至40時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時至45時"},{"start":27479.416,"end":27504.696,"text":"好,現在繼續開會那我們現在要來審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬的部分請宣讀預算書及委員提案宣讀完畢之後再進行協商好,請宣讀114年度中央選舉委員會及所屬"},{"start":27507.274,"end":27524.29,"text":"稅入預算。第二款法款及賠償收入第15項中央選舉委員會及所屬70萬5千元。第四款成產收入第16項中央選舉委員會及所屬7千元。第七款其他收入第16項中央選舉委員會及所屬39萬9千元。"},{"start":27529.107,"end":27537.709,"text":"中央選舉委員會及所屬稅出預算第二款行政院主管第11項中央選舉委員會及所屬486663000元第一幕一般行政103681000元第二幕選舉業務30141000元"},{"start":27547.692,"end":27557.322,"text":"第三目地方選舉委員會行政業務3億5169萬1千元。第四目一般建築及設備15萬元。第五目第一預備金100萬元。繼續宣讀提案。第11項"},{"start":27568.069,"end":27578.017,"text":"一案。第一幕一般行政為第二至第四案共計三案。第二幕選舉業務為第五案至第49案共計45案。主決議部分為五十至五十七案共計八案。內容請委員參閱。宣讀完畢。好那我們現在來進行協商"},{"start":27595.936,"end":27615.372,"text":"那是不是我們也是照這個我們內政委員會替我們整理出來的我們首先就是進入稅出部分第11項第11項只有一個本席的一個提案好這個部分"},{"start":27622.691,"end":27624.732,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":27649.837,"end":27671.117,"text":"這個部分的預算129萬8千元請中選會就如何參與出國提升選務工作效益及實體參與會議的必要性向我們內政委員會提出專案報告後並且有經過同意後使得動之本期在這邊特別說一下我們查了一下你們出國"},{"start":27673.278,"end":27701.749,"text":"參訪過的國家參訪過的國家很多他們的國會議員都沒有罷免制度你們知道嗎?誰要回答?就是你這個之前一些詢答你們有很多的回覆的意見但是我覺得你出國了之後你都沒有發現世界上先進民主國家他們很多他們地方議員有罷免可是國會議員要嘛門檻很高要嘛是沒有罷免的"},{"start":27702.866,"end":27704.248,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":27717.216,"end":27734.774,"text":"那稍為各位委員大家午安,稍為這個所問的這個問題大約有二第一個部分是有關出國的相關費用出的這個進行相關的一個考察之外那因為我們在外交上這個是屬於弱勢的這個地位"},{"start":27735.502,"end":27755.485,"text":"中選會肩負兩個國家主體參加的一個國際組織包括AWEB也就是世界選舉機關協會還有AAEA也就是亞洲選舉官署所以這個相關的一個費用還是有它的一個必要第二個這個主席剛剛這個所關心的一個問題"},{"start":27757.344,"end":27760.665,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":27784.7,"end":27807.24,"text":"這個各國的這個情形略有這個不同那上午法這個一概而論以上這個補充很好啊我沒有要一概而論我只是說欸我們的了解而且我們在台灣罷免制度是OK的沒有不OK所以不要誤解好說明完畢了好那我們這個案是不是就照照案是不是就照我們這個案嘛"},{"start":27815.559,"end":27835.856,"text":"副主委是有講低一點本席可以參酌略減一點你說有參與的組織好像是跟選舉有關的那這樣是不是有兩個那是不是可以跟因為這既然附有外交的任務那是不是跟外交部拿經費就好了外交部沒有補助嗎"},{"start":27843.035,"end":27843.957,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至"},{"start":27850.22,"end":27873.163,"text":"主席各位委員因為我們臺灣的國際外交的處境的確是非常的困難那非常珍貴的就是中選會竟然可以以臺灣以中華民國的名義參加兩個國際性的選舉組織一個就是世界性的Aweb另外一個是亞洲的AAEA"},{"start":27874.404,"end":27892.174,"text":"我們雖然主要是辦選務但是對於能夠為國家以選務的外交來跟各國往來我們非常珍惜我們也認為這是我們的責任所以這幾年以來我們都非常積極的參與兩個國際組織以及相關的國際選務機構所辦理的各項的活動"},{"start":27900.979,"end":27902.76,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":27909.934,"end":27931.567,"text":"請問一下你那個Aweb大概有幾個國家參加Aweb有一百多個國家一百三十幾個國家那亞洲那個什麼AAEA啊AAEA有20個國家有20個國家是的是的我們今年每年一次是我們今年是主席國是AAEA的主席國來台灣啊今年9月在台灣辦大會"},{"start":27934.309,"end":27938.733,"text":"今年我也到哥倫比亞去參加世界年會。在這個年會上,我們成功的保住了可能對我們會籍產生影響的一個提案。"},{"start":27957.552,"end":27975.948,"text":"我們發言得到與會各國的支持所以我們的會期今年是保住的我們是碰到挑戰但是我們如果不去積極的參與的話很可能就會被邊緣那明年到哪裡參加他大會是兩年舉辦一次"},{"start":27978.188,"end":27982.01,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算書案。"},{"start":27993.187,"end":28016.018,"text":"執行委員會是每年都要辦。還有一些專案性的會議,因為這幾年包括錯假訊息包括這個身為影音還有包括資安的公期這個是全世界各國選務機關共同面對的挑戰所以國際性的這個研討會也相當的多我們自己也辦了"},{"start":28016.698,"end":28041.59,"text":"我們今年也到新加坡也到馬來西亞去參加別的國際組織所舉辦的會議所以這個經費請主席那這樣好了我覺得這個部分要給他們啦有一些會費啦那個什麼都要的那一些不然到時候如果被除名的話就不好了"},{"start":28043.648,"end":28056.431,"text":"我不是刪除嘛我是凍結那不然這樣好了我凍20萬然後你們專案報告專案報告之後凍支這20萬那你還有100萬可以用100多萬專案啦反正你來你總是要來業務報告的時候就一起嘛好不好"},{"start":28067.981,"end":28075.688,"text":"好專案報告好好啦那我就這一個案動20然後專案報告後時得動之好那我們接著進入第一幕234三個案子那請在場的張志倫委員"},{"start":28088.971,"end":28118.311,"text":"好,謝謝主席。那現在討論的是中選會第一幕一般行政的部分。那我先提一下第二案。第二案是這個徐宇宗委員特別提我提出來。有關於一般行政向下的這個基本行政工作維持費。經費是759萬4千元。包含這個維護費、辦公大的維護費、印刷費、清潔費、環境教育等費用258萬。那我們這邊提案的部分是說"},{"start":28119.331,"end":28135.538,"text":"因為這個114年跟113年差了就是這個總統副總統跟立法委員選舉所以我們看到這個預算不減反增所以請序名爭列的理由避免無盡的浪費消化預算那請這邊請這個提出說明"},{"start":28137.779,"end":28163.191,"text":"那所以這邊徐宇貞委員是提出要檢列100萬跟凍結10%那請中選會在一個月內向立法院立法院內政委員會提出書面報告後持的凍值那接下來是我提了第三案那第三案的部分是我本席之前對李敬永主委在質詢的部分針對現在這個我們都很尊重罷免團體的權益可是對於有一年內"},{"start":28164.372,"end":28190.448,"text":"可不可以連罷免團體可不可以請我們一般的民眾來連署罷免書的這個部分李靜永主委之前回應我的非常的不確定所以第一個重點我想要請教的主委的是說現在選罷法三讀通過以後您認為現在選罷法三讀通過要附身份證正版面影本附身份證正版面影本就像之前這個"},{"start":28194.752,"end":28216.611,"text":"總統選舉連署及很多公投連署這部分你認同嗎?你有要提復議嗎?第二個現在很多罷免團體現在已經在各處去連署了那我請教一下現在選罷法三度已經通過了現在這些在收罷免書的部分有沒有需要附身分證銀本?您的看法是什麼?"},{"start":28217.512,"end":28235.715,"text":"第3個我要請教這個主委的部分就是說現在罷免團體如果在一年在在還沒有滿一年就簽這個罷免書的部分的時候如果這些罷免書都沒有填日期的時候那會有罷免團體這些人去連署日期這樣子算是這些罷免"},{"start":28237.007,"end":28263.898,"text":"約翼罷免的人他們的自由意識嗎?這樣的做法是否可以?那到底有沒有需要收徵跟證影本?所以我希望說中選會我們都希望它是一個獨立機關而且主委我之前一直在問你說這一年內到底能不能罷免的時候你說這個哪裡有罷免團體我沒有看到啊沒有哪裡有罷免團體我沒有看到啊然後第二個我就說那一年內到底有沒有人在後來我請教你說那到底有沒有人在罷免"},{"start":28265.017,"end":28292.504,"text":"你看新聞看很多雜誌以及現在這個罷免團體還對本黨的委員說已經第一階段聯署都通過了還在上新聞那結果你主委你跟我講說因為沒有人跟我檢舉啊你這樣的回應本席非常不能認同我不需要你成為歷史上的罪人不想你成為這個影子主委那我這邊本席要提醒你過去其實有慣例當時反萊豬罷免的時候那些罷免團體其實"},{"start":28294.504,"end":28295.625,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":28314.924,"end":28332.636,"text":"議員、里長都會聞罷免。如果你沒有一個明確的態度的話明年烽火連天你只會成為歷史罪人所以我希望你不要成為影子主委那我這邊喔因為我有針對你的特別費71萬元全數減劣代表本席對你的抗議以及對你的不信任以上請問行政單位有沒有要說明"},{"start":28347.768,"end":28371.333,"text":"謝謝張委員的指教那第一點我要特別呼應張委員的一個論點就是說就是說今天你罷免我明天換我罷免你所以所以我們選務機關或者是貴院大院你們在訂定這個選務的相關的法令"},{"start":28372.153,"end":28396.823,"text":"或者我們選務機關在辦理相關的這個選務如果不是秉持中立的立場的話今天去傷到你明天也會去傷到另外一方就是會傷來傷去彼此傷來傷去中選會作為一個獨立機關依法行政我們對於選務的這個主張絕對是站在中立的立場"},{"start":28400.444,"end":28420.144,"text":"因為我沒有辦法即便是有人想去單獨的偏袒任何一方是做不到的因為同一套法律同一個遊戲規則兩邊都會適用所以我呼應委員的這個論點我也是這樣子的一個看法這是第一點"},{"start":28421.272,"end":28438.361,"text":"第二點要跟委員報告就是有關於大院所通過的選罷法的修正案子這個案子歸大院已經三度通過了那如果完成整個的法制程序依法公佈施行的話"},{"start":28439.562,"end":28457.202,"text":"我們當然就是按照通過的生肖的法律來執行生肖的法律該附什麼文件我們就會要求要附什麼文件依照這樣子的規定來進行審查第三點就是說因為現在的這個"},{"start":28459.95,"end":28479.583,"text":"現在的現行的這個選罷法只是規定說有關於罷免是必須在任期滿一年以後才提出所以我們審查的時間就罷免案的審查時間點我們是以罷免提出時為準"},{"start":28481.244,"end":28497.511,"text":"至於在任職滿一年之前有一些人採取一些動作不管是宣傳的動作不管是實際上去收取怎麼樣的文件"},{"start":28498.792,"end":28511.279,"text":"在選罷法沒有做規範我們也沒有法律的根據可以去執行所以這點務必請委員你能夠諒解我們就這部分並沒有辦法去執行審查以上三點"},{"start":28520.557,"end":28541.402,"text":"主委您的意思我簡單幫你統整一下所以你支持這個就是說你當任主委來講你尊重選辦法三讀後要收集身份證銀本你覺得這沒有你不會提出復議法律我沒有權利提出復議這個是行政院的事情法律生肖的法律怎麼規定我們就按照那個規定來執行"},{"start":28542.722,"end":28557.977,"text":"那請問您針對一年內沒有可不可以簽署簽署連署書你認為法無明文規定法無明文我們無法執行我們無法執行那請問主委您擔任了將近快8年的中選會主委快6年快6年的中選會主委這個問題你有要處理嗎"},{"start":28563.189,"end":28589.291,"text":"這個法律規定我就照法律規定來執行沒有法律的話其實法律照法律規定來執行可以提出相關的法律規定因為為什麼本席會提出這個問題當一個人當選以後隔天馬上就可以連署罷免這個中選會如果不處理的話這個未來風火連篇我不是說針對哪一個政黨是中選會主委你聽到我們的建議以後你完全沒有作為就像本席現在在跟你討論你也說無法"},{"start":28590.134,"end":28613.3,"text":"沒有法令,那中選會不應該處理嗎?我認為在這個...在第三個...一年之前這個是屬於個人的自由啦。他要去怎麼說,言論自由,他要去做怎麼樣子的一個動作,只要不要要求送到選委會來,那選委會是無權去加以干涉。"},{"start":28614.049,"end":28639.516,"text":"主委我尊重您的講法因為您是中選會主委那最後一個要問你的點就是說當這些聯署書日期是填空白的時候那等到一般人在填的時候不會先填日期嗎那如果在後來這些罷免團體幫這些聯署人填日期的時候這份聯署書聯署書上面格式上面沒有日期是提出的時候這個領銜人必須要押日期"},{"start":28640.637,"end":28648.288,"text":"領銜人幫所有聯署人提押日期領銜人自己押他提出的日期所以聯署書上不用填日期聯署書上沒有日期好以上謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":28655.162,"end":28656.583,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":28671.733,"end":28676.936,"text":"委員會關於電子聯署系統長期延宕為例,顯示執行效能及中立性不完善,所以這個部分我就把它動100%。在三個月後書面提出說明的話就解凍。來溝通的時候我也是要求是這樣。以上謝謝。"},{"start":28700.265,"end":28721.825,"text":"好那請蘇巧慧委員好謝謝主席那我想我們在立法院就是都就事論事然後一碼歸一碼那雖然我也不贊成國民黨提出的選罷法那不過上上個禮拜確實這個法律目前他的程序上面是經過了三讀這樣的狀況當然我們對這個過程有相當的質疑不過程序上面他現在到這裡"},{"start":28726.889,"end":28756.069,"text":"我們今天在做的是中選會的預算審查這樣的工作那剛剛其實張委員也提出了相當多的意見那現在麥委員也有提出了要凍結百分之百的意見不過我想根據剛剛聽到我們主委的回答主委也很清楚的表示就是說如果法律經過立法院三讀通過之後他就是會遵守這個法律他已經在這裡公開的承諾表達"},{"start":28757.45,"end":28763.217,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":28772.409,"end":28773.27,"text":"午10時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":28788.8,"end":28792.324,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午"},{"start":28806.761,"end":28818.63,"text":"主要是主委剛剛有表示他會遵守通過的三讀的法律因為台灣就是一個法治的社會你不滿意但是還是必須接受結果那是不是可以請國民黨委員考慮一下是不是請他們說明市民說明一下行政單位有想說明那就請說明"},{"start":28833.98,"end":28854.88,"text":"謝謝召委各位委員那有關麥委員這個所提的一個問題做幾點這個補充第一點是因為中央選舉委員會的委員會議他每個月至少要開會一次這是法律這個鎖定那所以如果權數凍結會導致選舉的一個業務自然難行那更何況大大小小的一些選舉的一個業務"},{"start":28856.383,"end":28880.094,"text":"其實是隨時會這個存在的包括這個地補啊包括這個補選等等等那第二個呢這個委員提到有關電子連署的這個部分我們在今年的這個4月1號4月這個10號公投這個電子連署這個已經這個上線了那委員這個所這個提的這個部分也做一個這個釐清"},{"start":28887.503,"end":28897.682,"text":"好那我們就請張志榮委員麥義正委員可以做個決定我們就依據你們的意見"},{"start":28911.366,"end":28921.16,"text":"因為剛才補充的是說要選舉要用要開會現在又沒有選舉啊對不對我只有動三個月後就是解動嘛"},{"start":28921.741,"end":28934.03,"text":"所以說你可以就是書面我沒有叫說專案報告你書面給我就就是同意後就解凍了所以沒有選舉啊所以不是影響說你要選舉還有因為上次我在質詢的時候也問到就是電子連署系統"},{"start":28941.515,"end":28949.28,"text":"也是沒有再進行,現在也還沒有再進行應用所以也是覺得這個一直在延宕嘛所以我們也希望說你要你講的你就書面說明嘛你就解凍喔,沒有減弱你的費用啊 對不對所以這個是沒有影響的因為現在也沒有選舉啊三個月你覺得三個月太久你就一個月嘛 對不對一個月也不會影響到你的作業啊"},{"start":28970.134,"end":28972.396,"text":"主委有要說明嗎?好請主委報告委員好各位委員其實我們的選務不是不是選舉年才有選舉像現在各種各種補選"},{"start":28991.17,"end":29015.862,"text":"對,補選,我們現在還在辦補選有很多地方還在辦補選所以選務,大大小小的選務平常都會辦理那如果沒有一些經費來支持的話那根本辦不下去而且這個選舉辦理的期限都是法定的期限都是法定的期限所以你全部都凍結的話那我們真的是選務就凍不了了這點請委員能夠諒解謝謝"},{"start":29020.316,"end":29031.556,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":29032.337,"end":29032.357,"text":"張昭偉議員"},{"start":29059.861,"end":29066.526,"text":"午9時至午10時至午11時至午12時至午13時至午14時至午15時至午16時至午16時至午17時至午18時至午19時至午20時至午21時至午22時至午23時至午24時至午25時至午26時至午27時至午28時至午29時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至午30時至"},{"start":29083.986,"end":29089.67,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午。"},{"start":29104.79,"end":29126.73,"text":"好主席我還是要請教主委主委剛剛的解釋其實我大概有一半能聽得進去其實主委是很辛苦可是我針對您剛剛最後提到說這個這個還沒還沒任職還沒一年可以這個就是可以罷免的連署這是個人個人的自由意願這句話我覺得中選會還是沒有講得很清楚"},{"start":29127.19,"end":29146.623,"text":"那我這邊其實我的提案裡面有提到特別一點就是有關於這個過去不管是金融的罷免案這個有1億的聯署書資料填錯或沒有本人簽名的話應該以雙掛號來由本人來回覆那金融是當時選委會有認為說如果當事人據領未有回覆或查無此人"},{"start":29148.219,"end":29164.69,"text":"後會沒有回覆也沒有簽名等的話應該是認定為無效的聯署書可是你當時這個應該沒有無效聯署書應該要淘汰認為是偽造或代簽的情事可是當時中選會卻要求如果沒有回覆即認定為合格"},{"start":29165.33,"end":29181.134,"text":"所以當時其實你已經有主委親自到場來指揮猜量行動所以有違中選會的地位所以本席還是針對這裡我沒有要減那麼多特別費我就減大概一半35萬的特別費以上好那請高金委員"},{"start":29188.283,"end":29197.475,"text":"報告主席在場的委員們我對於徐宇貞委員的提案我覺得我是支持他的就是在整個元劣數的1140萬6千減劣100萬凍絕10%為什麼是這樣子呢?我記得我在這個"},{"start":29205.726,"end":29230.217,"text":"基隆罷免案的時候本席辦公室我先講我是無黨籍的本席辦公室接到非常多的投訴就是連署的部分有非常多的瑕疵然後我們有請中選會到我的辦公室來做說明那他們的說明是說的確有一些法他們要修可是到目前為止都還沒有修啊"},{"start":29231.42,"end":29253.838,"text":"所以我覺得這個中選會有違你們的職責尤其這個主委你已經你剛說已經6年多了快7年了在這裡擔任這7年多來難道你都沒有看到這些問題嗎這不是黨政的問題而是浪費公堂的問題你們這一次光是一個罷免基隆市就花了多少錢這可是人民的納稅錢欸"},{"start":29255.836,"end":29282.965,"text":"你們在審查的時候不好好審查你們也清楚知道有一些東西是有漏洞的但是這將近7年來你們都沒有試圖要去解決這個問題所以呢我認為徐以貞委員的提案我非常支持就是檢列100萬凍結10%然後請你們提出專案報告以後才可以解凍請告訴我們有哪些法是漏洞的"},{"start":29283.365,"end":29306.411,"text":"有哪一些這個雖然我們選辦法已經通過了啦現在也沒有說嘉音徐宇珍的那個版本立法院都打成這樣子了然後民進黨立委還破窗進去那只不過是跟民進黨委員以前提案包括吳秉瑞委員所提案的部分是相同的就是要提出身份證遺孕本"},{"start":29309.236,"end":29337.425,"text":"這個部分我覺得中選會你們的確是應該站在中立的角度雖然剛剛你有表態你說依法你絕對但是呢你站在中立的角度你就應該清楚知道這已經是在立法院完成三讀通過了所以你必須要提議跟行政院提議千萬不可以再提復議案否則的話大家未來對中選會會有什麼樣的態度跟看法"},{"start":29338.285,"end":29340.988,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":29353.763,"end":29357.365,"text":"現在那是兩年選一次立法委員跟總統一起選縣市首長跟民代一起選已經改了兩次了好不容易那現在動不動就罷免動不動罷免你認為這不是浪費公帑嗎你認為這不是造成社會的動盪不安嗎不管是哪一黨執政這個都不是非常好的例子啊"},{"start":29376.056,"end":29403.549,"text":"而且剛剛還說你們出國你去參加了這麼多的歐盟會議、亞洲會議全世界有哪幾個國家是拜美國立法委員的你們應該很清楚啊為什麼你們參加了這麼多的國際會議你們難道連這些資訊都沒有嗎?你剛剛說是憲法那7年來你為什麼不建議我們的總統或者是建議在野黨休一下你有中立嗎?我們毫無看到你的中立謝謝"},{"start":29406.997,"end":29416.321,"text":"本期有發現徐宇貞委員的提案聯署人是高金委員跟張志倫委員所以我想看第二個案是不是按照高金委員的提議"},{"start":29428.024,"end":29450.889,"text":"主席各位委員我們對於委員對中選會的指教是非常非常在乎的尤其如果是指教說中選會辦選務不中立有偏袒那對我們來講是打擊非常的大那這樣子的打擊我們用什麼態度來面對呢一個如果有誤會的話我們要說明第二個我們真的有錯的話我們要檢討我們要改進"},{"start":29453.149,"end":29474.255,"text":"那針對罷免尤其是基隆市市長罷免的這個案子其實在這個選務的初期階段鬧的是風風雨雨我知道這個案子被提出來之後一定是引起雙方陣營非常尖銳的對抗"},{"start":29475.99,"end":29478.011,"text":"午10時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":29495.879,"end":29512.389,"text":"在還沒有開始進行連署之前我就已經邀集基隆市選委會到中選會來大家要開個選前的協調會這個選前的協調會就是要把一些相關的選務法令的規定"},{"start":29515.152,"end":29529.707,"text":"選務實際運作的這個程序要跟金融式選委會大家一致才能夠採取共同的一個立場才不會引發外界的質疑但是這個案子這樣一走下來在"},{"start":29532.239,"end":29541.127,"text":"查對的階段在提議跟連署查對的階段遭驚起出了一些狀況這個是我們選委會內部應該要檢討的"},{"start":29547.267,"end":29547.727,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":29568.82,"end":29583.461,"text":"以及過去我們對於查對相關的解釋、會籍、層冊都跟基隆市選委會講得清清楚楚還好最後把它導正過來了我光舉一個最簡單的例子"},{"start":29585.484,"end":29599.06,"text":"為什麼為什麼基隆市選委會向基隆市政府提出的查對費用的件數竟然會達到兩萬五千份"},{"start":29600.585,"end":29629.945,"text":"總共連署的案子也不過是三、四萬份為什麼呢?即發查詢函要發兩萬五千份我不講他什麼背景我光講一點對選委會來講就是讓外界看笑話你們完全是沒有選務的專業一個專業的選務單位根據過去大大小小的罷免案件查詢的件數一定可以知道"},{"start":29630.545,"end":29645.645,"text":"你不必編到兩萬五千份嗎?為什麼要這樣子編呢?基中必有援助。所以我提這麼一個簡單的例子你就可以知道我裡面有很多的問題。這些問題我把它公開了。"},{"start":29646.286,"end":29658.978,"text":"我有調查報告,我在我們的網站公開了,歡迎各位委員能夠去給我們指教。對不起,因為牽涉到中選會務必嚴守中立的立場,所以我說幾句話,請大家了解,謝謝。"},{"start":29664.83,"end":29670.414,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算。二、審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":29682.701,"end":29702.313,"text":"特別費,第三案直接減劣10%本來71萬改成減劣10%那麥議政委員您的案沒有沒有,你第四案你的意見好,凍結50%"},{"start":29713.424,"end":29717.688,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"},{"start":29737.13,"end":29746.066,"text":"到這邊那接著接著我們進入第二幕主要是第二幕所以我們現在請各位委員可以表達意見"},{"start":29747.779,"end":29769.793,"text":"對不起剛剛那個是書面報告竟同意時的通知對不對他原本是寫書面你要改專案嗎我認為應該是要改個專案吧好那就那就剛剛剛剛那個主委也說的確有非常多的疏失啊然後他中選會就直接介入了選委會啊嗯哼哼"},{"start":29770.253,"end":29789.868,"text":"很顯然中選會主委的權責很大他可以決定一切所以我們第二案檢列100萬凍結10%那請提出專案報告主席剛才主委說的不是這樣的意思吧會有專案報告"},{"start":29793.411,"end":29794.131,"text":"主委說一下"},{"start":29815.147,"end":29832.517,"text":"這也是外界甚至於包括基隆市選委會辦理這個罷免案市府派來的兼任人員錯誤的觀念他以為中選會是第三者其實不是"},{"start":29834.038,"end":29841.589,"text":"這個罷免案根據選罷法的規定是由中央選舉委員會指揮監督地方選舉委員會來辦理所以是一體"},{"start":29848.579,"end":29855.042,"text":"我們跟地方選委會是一體。外界刻意的把它解釋為說中選會介入。這本來就是我的事情,我當然可以介入了。本來就是我的事情。"},{"start":29872.349,"end":29884.894,"text":"你記得你剛剛講的這個中央跟地方是一體的講道理中央跟地方中央跟地方是一體的阿你剛是這樣說我們的選委會是整體的一個單位對阿整體的一個單位嘛對不對沒有啦他現在講的議事選報法裡面會中央選舉委員會及地方要發表那個委員會兩個做法做法的講話啦是不是這樣議長好再來我把這個"},{"start":29902.296,"end":29921.76,"text":"我們第一幕已經確定了嘛所以現在進入第二幕所以現在第二幕可以請各位委員發言首先請吳啟明委員好主席我第二幕第二幕第18案還有第二幕第39案因為我們中選會有來溝通我都列入我們的主決議好謝謝好接著請張志倫委員後面請蔓逸臻委員"},{"start":29929.875,"end":29950.731,"text":"好謝謝主席我今天有提三個案主要是第22案就是這個有關於選舉業務綜合規劃及選務資訊化資訊服務費部分凍結50萬就是中選會現在有一個罷免及公投電子連署系統從107年建制完成建制經費罷免跟公投電子連署兩個"},{"start":29951.631,"end":29969.125,"text":"電子經費是403萬跟250萬可是還有很多的系統沒有上線所以從107年到現在我建議凍結50萬的經費這比較少第二個案子是我之前有在質詢的時候特別請教主委的就是第24案"},{"start":29971.598,"end":29989.106,"text":"就是選舉業務綜合規劃及選務資訊化的一個部分這個部分我也是針對這個公投案及這個連署的名冊查兌費505萬因為大家都知道從100最後一次公投的連署是110年111、112、113年都沒有公投的連署"},{"start":29993.268,"end":30015.824,"text":"也沒有查對,可是每年都編好編滿,都編五六百萬的經費,通通花光光,都不知道雲芝到哪裡去了。上次我問過李敬友主委,沒有公投綁大選,所以公投案都不能成案,結果公投的查對費用還編好編滿,而且花五六百萬都這樣花光光。這個部分我建議要減劣505萬,以及最後"},{"start":30022.435,"end":30024.942,"text":"這個國外旅費的部分在第46案的部分"},{"start":30027.393,"end":30052.115,"text":"剛剛我們很多委員都提出這個中選會現在沒有選舉還一直出國去考察那比如說最近要提國外的旅費到加拿大聯邦考察大選時務那到底考察出來什麼東西剛剛我們很多委員也提出來其實這個中選會主委我們認為他對政黨政治公平性的核心價值是鮮有不足而且這個"},{"start":30055.129,"end":30071.364,"text":"中選會對選務遭遇非常閒熟只是缺乏革新以及缺乏提出新的法令的勇氣所以還花大筆預算出國考察當然中選會說因為其他國國情不足而不足採納"},{"start":30072.365,"end":30084.188,"text":"所以一直出國去旅遊可是回到台灣來都說國情不同而不予採納這些國外的一些建議所以我們認為這些出國考察費用大可不要所以提議簡列這個國外旅費50萬以上好接著請麥義正委員然後高金委員接著黃捷委員"},{"start":30094.226,"end":30122.812,"text":"好謝謝主席我這邊第17案就是因為媒體宣傳就是感覺這就是不足來溝通了還是講了就是不清楚所以這個部分的話我是簡略了就是全部啦在第19案的部分呢就是關於不再急投票因為我們在不再急投票就"},{"start":30124.14,"end":30134.812,"text":"一百二十七個國家的全球有一百二十七個國家都有不在一起投票但是我們這邊到現在還是沒辦法去去這個投票的範圍還沒辦法去改善19還有第30案呢我也是簡略了就是"},{"start":30144.522,"end":30153.707,"text":"百分之百因為多國語言的公報是沒有的所以有很多人都沒辦法是說要了解我們的選舉方法還有裡面的公報的內容還有第12案還有選務人員的督導責任這個部分也是看起來就是姆薩薩所以這個我也是全檢"},{"start":30168.556,"end":30170.078,"text":"第45案是有來溝通說這個是要出國的本來是全檢但是後來現在就改組結議還有第48案因為在"},{"start":30185.887,"end":30198.455,"text":"這邊很多人在講我們的中選會的時候呢就是要去檢舉又要高到最後呢就是都濫用司法所以這個部分我們也是我也是檢列還有第49案也是一樣宅法選民這樣就變成是不具體這個我也是全檢以上報告好接著請高金委員"},{"start":30213.278,"end":30226.308,"text":"我在第二幕裡面的第6案、第7案、第31案就是分別對於這個選舉業務3014萬1000元我原來是凍結1000萬啦那現在他們來溝通之後我是同意這個凍結500萬那我要講一下我為什麼要凍結他的預算也就是說原住民的選舉的權益長期以來遭受侵害如主委剛剛講的他在任已經快要7年了"},{"start":30242.76,"end":30255.896,"text":"我們回顧8年的預算審查的過程都有立法委員提出秘密投票不再急投票還有原住民投票率過低原住民投票選入疏失的問題我們要要求中選會你來要求改善你剛剛講中選"},{"start":30259.94,"end":30279.926,"text":"中央跟地方是一體的為什麼我們原住民在投票的時候還是碰到非常多的問題更何況監察院早就在108年7月9號有正式的公告要糾正中央選舉委員會然後糾正案是說你們沒有督促各地方選舉委員會確實依照所定的標準設置投開票所"},{"start":30284.967,"end":30305.465,"text":"所以我們會看到113年度平地跟3D原住民立法委員的選舉僅一人的投票所分別是966還有1069家戶仍然是偏多的那113年度平地3D原住民立法選舉人僅三人的投票所"},{"start":30306.266,"end":30307.487,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":30324.179,"end":30325.32,"text":"5時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":30349.376,"end":30372.015,"text":"尤其是以原住民的立法委員更是明顯如果是縣市的議員如果是鄉長因為那是短兵相接所以大家都會回去但是總統跟立法委員的選舉你會看歷年來的數據都非常的低這個也都跟這有關係所以我們在說連菲律賓"},{"start":30372.856,"end":30374.317,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":30395.467,"end":30396.849,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":30414.63,"end":30436.698,"text":"選舉選舉是說我如果沒有告訴他我們原住民的選票是根本沒有放在桌子上的是放在抽屜裡面的如果我們選舉人沒有說我是原住民的話他就不拿選票出來那有一些人就是因為這樣子生氣不投票我們辦公室收到非常多的投訴所以呢我在第6案第7案第31案"},{"start":30438.439,"end":30464.724,"text":"我同意凍結500萬然後請你們在3個月內提出具體的這個解決方案解決方案第一秘密投票第二公投法脫鉤原住民不在籍第三原住民投票率過低的問題第四原住民投票選務疏失的改進所以以上是我在做跟大家做這樣的說明謝謝"},{"start":30467.082,"end":30488.834,"text":"接著請黃潔委員好謝謝那我講一下我的提案是關於身心障礙的部分因為我有接到一些身心障礙的呃民眾來跟我反映說現在我們投開票所的身心障礙的環境並沒有那麼友善那我有看了一下目前其實我們全台灣所有一百呃"},{"start":30489.835,"end":30510.997,"text":"一萬六千六百五十三個所裏面符合無障礙設施規定大概是93%就是還沒有完全百分之百那可能有一些民眾他就是使用到沒有那麼完善的包括說有一些沒有在一樓那有的是雖然在一樓但是他並沒有無障礙坡道"},{"start":30511.637,"end":30527.774,"text":"導致他們要去投票的時候造成非常大的不便所以這個是希望我們中選會再跟地方的選委會再把這一些投開票所布置的時候要一併考慮進去最好是可以達到百分之百這個我一定要替身心障礙者來請命謝謝"},{"start":30530.691,"end":30558.465,"text":"好接著請牛許庭委員好謝謝主席23案的部分是罷免案跟公投的這個電子連署啦那之前有講嘛現在執行的進度到底是怎麼樣公投的已經可以使用了是不是那罷免是因為要用一樣的系統嗎還是要用不一樣的系統因為一個是人一個是事有沒有一些差異現在打算怎麼處理是不是請中選會做一下說明這個第一個是這個我一次問啦待會一次回答"},{"start":30559.534,"end":30577.559,"text":"二十七案的部分剛剛應該那個大家都有談到啦就是說到底查對的那個估的估值的標準是什麼因為你估然後前幾年最多也只有用到352萬那你編500多萬是不是有寬裂的嫌疑這要怎麼來處理大家一起討論"},{"start":30578.459,"end":30597.166,"text":"二十八案跟三十四案這個前面有來過說明所以我們可以改組決議最後三十五跟三十六案雖然談的是原住民但是這個是老問題就是說一個票箱只有一張票兩張票就違背了這個所謂的無記名投票這樣的一個原則但是老問題也不太好處理那本期的建議是這樣其實這些東西"},{"start":30600.367,"end":30621.868,"text":"不在即投票或許可以解決一大部分的問題啦那其實我們在這個第一會期剛開始的時候沒有花一點時間去討論不在即投票那我們現在想了解中選會後來繼續做研究跟一些方案的一些研擬有沒有一些特別的進展所以說凍結一部分希望換到一個清楚的說明跟報告我提的幾個案子以上做說明謝謝這個請中選會回答一下我們剛剛一些問題謝謝"},{"start":30624.178,"end":30643.335,"text":"那等一下一併回答,接著請高金委員我剛剛講到的是第2個案,就是要有4個,然後第7個案的話是原住民立委缺額立即補選的問題因為原住民的委員,我們總共3屆原住民3席,平地原住民3席,如果缺額的話你們就不補"},{"start":30643.996,"end":30647.758,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬單位預算。"},{"start":30666.485,"end":30667.906,"text":"6時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":30689.443,"end":30695.053,"text":"二十案。二十案是本席發現最近兩次公投選舉,選務滿意度調查中還有"},{"start":30700.313,"end":30722.728,"text":"三十九趴一百一十年是三十九趴一百一十一年是五十一趴的民眾表示呢這個都沒有聽過公投案也沒有看過公投案所以表示中選會對於公投案宣傳工作有非常大的努力空間所以本期這一個案這個凍結五百萬那希望能夠專報專案報告之後再來解凍"},{"start":30725.734,"end":30744.447,"text":"那再來專案報告然後經過同意後再解凍再來第26案這剛剛大家也有講等一下您也好好說明一下就是提案人聯署人名冊的查對費那本席覺得有扶編預算之餘所以簡列300萬元"},{"start":30746.528,"end":30767.416,"text":"那再來第29案29案就是我們有開過專案會議開過那個預算法案審查有關這個公投綁大選那主委一直的說難如登天公投綁大選難如登天所以本席凍結這項預算這個58萬1000元希望中選會就公投綁大選如何合併執行提出專案"},{"start":30776.48,"end":30800.521,"text":"改進方案後在專案報告後同意使得動之。接著第43案43案是針對中選會對候選人的一些假訊息沒有積極的查核以及沒有協助澄清不實的訊息對監察還有維護選舉公正性有失職之處所以凍結這項預算300萬元"},{"start":30803.704,"end":30825.298,"text":"那也是專案報告後經同意再動之。那最後44案,44案是有關這個一個議題大家在討論就是到底選舉前多久不可以發布民調那這個也牽扯到你們也常出國嘛剛剛也很多人提到那我們就發現啊"},{"start":30826.559,"end":30852.044,"text":"美國對於這個民調的部分沒有限制。丹麥沒有限制。荷蘭沒有限制。奧地利沒有限制。愛爾蘭沒有限制。南韓是投票前6天不得發布。德國的話是投票當日不能夠做出口民調。加拿大就是只有投票日當天不行。法國是投票前一天不行。西班牙前5天。所以呢這個針對這一個"},{"start":30855.283,"end":30871.076,"text":"預算本席凍結150萬也是專案報告後經同意使得凍支以上請行政單位就剛剛所有委員的這個提案詢問來做陸續的說明謝謝召委各位委員大家午安那針對剛剛各位委員這個所提的一個問題那一一的這個說明如下"},{"start":30884.161,"end":30901.43,"text":"第一個有關選舉業務費的這個部分如果這個是採檢列而且是全部檢列的話會導致業務無法這個推動那這個請這個務必這個審慎來這個處理那第二個呢是有這個委員提到"},{"start":30902.371,"end":30927.92,"text":"這個尊重原住民的這個投票秘密還有尊重原住民投票意願的這個部分我們都有在做一些細部的一個設計跟調整我們也會這個來把選務的這個部分持續來加以這個完備那至於委員這個所關心的有關原住民這個委員出缺補選的這個部分我們中選會原則上是支持"},{"start":30928.641,"end":30950.435,"text":"是採贊成的這個立場我們也會把相關的一個意見轉給這個選票法的一個主管機關內政部這個來參佐那委員這個提到有關身心障礙者這個投票檢核的這個部分我們是有循序漸進讓這個選舉年的這個部分能夠提高這個檢核率"},{"start":30951.32,"end":30965.798,"text":"這個部分我們依序來處理。那委員這個還有提到各式各樣的一個問題雖然沒有辦法一一的一個來回答但是在剛剛的這個說明中也有一些有跟大家這個做過報告第一個就是"},{"start":30967.028,"end":30992.87,"text":"有關不在籍投票的一個問題那選務機關的一個立場是先公投不在籍那等到公投不在籍成熟之後再來辦理這個選舉不在籍那至於全國性公民投票不在籍的投票法案中選會是有這個送過來給這個立法院這個審議過那後來因為這個戒期不連續的一個原則沒有這個續審那這個也跟大家這個來做一個報告"},{"start":30994.741,"end":31022.857,"text":"那其他各式各樣的一個問題包括這一個民調的這一個禁制期的一個問題各國的一個規範制度是略有這一個不同那考量到我國的一個這個國情跟選舉的這個競爭的這個激烈這個程度保留現在的這個10天的一個冷卻期禁制期還是有它的一個必要那這個相關的一個問題沒有辦法一一的這個回答的這個部分也請各位委員這個能夠了解"},{"start":31025.629,"end":31054.831,"text":"對不起喔,可不可以請問一下為什麼不在籍投票要公投先行,然後取得部分的一併呢?你講個理由那跟委員報告一下,不在籍這個投票它的一個制度因為涉及到社會信任的一個問題公投就沒有社會信任我們現在的這個投票這個制度它是有高度的一個社會信任的一個基礎那社會信任的一個共識的一個取得可以藉由先公投"},{"start":31055.387,"end":31070.574,"text":"公投這個施行這個事行之後如果大家的這個社會信任度這個提高之後在這個擴大到這個選舉而不適合一次就進入這個選舉的一個我不同意你的說法很抱歉我不接受還有沒有要說明的都說明完了好那"},{"start":31082.865,"end":31108.097,"text":"現在這樣選舉業務的部分從第5案到第15案選舉業務喔喔3000萬欸整目沒有那但是這裡面那現在整個"},{"start":31109.502,"end":31133.652,"text":"每個委員,他也包括國外旅遊啦,像黃建斌委員的126萬國外旅遊,還有那個趙偉明的也是。對,還有那個剛剛麥毓貞委員也有提到,麥毓貞委員也有。那個趙偉,其實大家都有按,整幕啊,其實整幕的預算也3000萬而已啦。"},{"start":31135.092,"end":31150.601,"text":"我是覺得我們看是不是整目凍結500他們要簡列我覺得簡列個100萬或150這樣子整目來處理所有病案我們要聽聽張昭偉有提案我們聽聽其他委員的意見張昭偉提案凍結500簡列150那其他人有其他意見的請說嗨"},{"start":31161.465,"end":31166.367,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":31177.557,"end":31205.212,"text":"民眾送以辦案這個是是在我們的法政業務這邊現在沒有在選舉啊所以法政這個部分這個工作也不用編列200多萬的預算啊就兩個就200多萬的預算所以我覺得有一些現在目前今明年沒有在用到的預算這就是不必要去編列啊"},{"start":31207.298,"end":31209.319,"text":"午10時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":31233.352,"end":31238.374,"text":"整幕一起就減列500你建議減列500沒有阿他現在是整個講阿"},{"start":31246.257,"end":31247.298,"text":"三個案子是具體可行改善的狀案報告"},{"start":31267.361,"end":31291.421,"text":"不要到時候給我們的專案報告又是剛剛那個副主委講的這個公投先行然後什麼人民信任案這個原住民的不在籍其實是很重要的我剛剛說了我們的投票率非常的低然後秘密投票的問題等等你如果可以先行跟公投一起先行的話或者是你就一的就整個不在籍投票整個都施行"},{"start":31292.282,"end":31319.34,"text":"所以你要把這幾個可具體的改善的專案報告提過來而不是又是你剛剛這樣一番的說法謝謝好那我們高金委員說的具體改善的方案要專案報告我們這邊即便統棟跟統山那我們要有專案報告那剛剛高金委員是棟500嘛我記得對所以麥委員是統山500高金委員統棟500有沒有意見"},{"start":31321.101,"end":31323.583,"text":"沒有意見我們這一幕我們這一幕是不是就這樣"},{"start":31340.662,"end":31352.271,"text":"報告主席跟各位委員其實中選會是一個很小的部會我們整個稅出預算也不過是4億8千多扣掉法定的支出"},{"start":31355.814,"end":31375.411,"text":"一役出逃案的並不是說明年明年其實是一個公投年雖然到目前為止還沒有公投案的成立但是難保什麼時候他突然一下子進來了我們還有很多選務必須要大大小小的選務必須要去進行"},{"start":31376.412,"end":31378.273,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":31391.661,"end":31394.363,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":31410.919,"end":31432.839,"text":"本席在這邊先說明這個所有委員其實是希望拿錢就是說預算是OK但是中選會常常很多事情不夠努力譬如像主委這個答詢的時候人家做得到的對你來說難如登天那能力不夠那就要加緊努力啊所以我們這個預算"},{"start":31435.401,"end":31435.741,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":31467.039,"end":31483.732,"text":"上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時"},{"start":31485.754,"end":31489.597,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":31502.187,"end":31509.51,"text":"第二幕第二幕選舉約務第18、28、34、39、40、41、45案改組決議。區議員提案合併處理。檢列300萬元。凍結500萬元。向本會提出專案報告經同又使的通知。"},{"start":31531.776,"end":31532.917,"text":"午10至午11時文字修正。"},{"start":31547.116,"end":31550.398,"text":"我上面寫的是為了各年度的預算審查中央選舉委員會他有凝聚各所屬的細部計劃說明表"},{"start":31563.326,"end":31589.272,"text":"就各個分支細部計劃的計劃目標主要工作項目預期效益以及往年度相同或類似委辦獎補助或者是補助計劃的具體成效提供相關書面資料作為立法委員審查預算的時候的參考那麼當然我也考量中央選舉委員會預算所轄的工作是非常廣泛的而預算書僅僅概括說明"},{"start":31591.613,"end":31618.331,"text":"沒有辦法細究個別系部計劃執行情況所以我在這邊提案是不是要求中央選舉委員會你們去跟農業部討論一下農業部就是這樣他是擬具相類似的各年度預算的系部計劃的說明表然後並隨著年度預算書一併送到各立法院還有各立法院還有內政委員會的辦公室"},{"start":31619.171,"end":31642.461,"text":"以方便我們來審你們相關預算的審議所以我不知道你們對這個組決議有沒有什麼意見謝謝沒有意見齁我看你們沒有要表達有沒有意見快點有沒有問題你們到了辦公室來說已經是沒有問題啊現在又有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":31644.949,"end":31657.653,"text":"主委說沒問題所以整個組決議行政單位都沒問題委員們也沒問題了那我們就都照案通過囉好那現在我們請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":31661.164,"end":31686.816,"text":"一、市民入中央政府總預算案中央選舉委員會及所屬預算協商結論稅入部分預算照列稅出部分第11項動結第一案動結20萬元向本會提出專案報告經同意後使得動之第一幕一般行政第二案檢列100萬元動結10%向本會提出專案報告經同意後使得動之第三案檢列10%第四案動結50%"},{"start":31690.24,"end":31691.873,"text":"向本會提出書面報告後時的動之。"},{"start":31694.451,"end":31702.856,"text":"第二幕選舉業務第18、28、34、39、40、41、45案改組決議。其委員提案合併處理。檢列300萬元。凍結500萬元。向本會提出專案報告經同意後使得凍資。第三幕、第四幕、第五幕預算照列。組決議50、51兩案修正文字通過。52至57案照案通過。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":31722.019,"end":31746.467,"text":"好請問各位委員討論事項所列有關114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬部分有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過沒有提案的部分預算均照列請問有無異議無異議通過本次通過之決議文字授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":31747.387,"end":31764.192,"text":"那114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬部分。審查完均。擬據審查報告含附財政委員會提報院會。本日議程處理完畢。好,現在散會。好,感謝大家。謝謝。"},{"start":31785.108,"end":31792.691,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"},{"start":31811.442,"end":31814.368,"text":"下午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時"}]}},{"id":"158475","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158475","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0f3a2fc414f17b5a57ba98e9ef8f04f2c7c1494669c19844fb90a6bc0bf914cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:23:06 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12時至上午12時至上午12時至上午12時至上午12時至上午12時至上午12時至上午12時至上午12時至上午12時"},{"start":301.255,"end":309.123,"text":"午2時至午3時至午4時至午5時至午6時至午8時至午10時至午11時至午12時至午13時至午14時至午15時至午14時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至午15時至"},{"start":316.75,"end":342.744,"text":"三會之後你才叫官員來備詢你難道是在霸凌公務員嗎要求大家要配合你們加班叫你幾點開會來你就來開會不連開會通知上面寫的都不算數難道是這樣嗎所以12月18號我也主張這是一個無效的違法會議所以拜託大家我們在這邊民進黨委員有一個共同的提案希望等一下可以照這樣的"},{"start":344.145,"end":368.181,"text":"提案來通過讓大家知道說12月16號跟12月18號這樣子的惡例包括封鎖國會包括偷偷開會這種情況都不應該在立法院發生絕對不能讓立法院變成史上最丟臉開下最多惡例的一個民主程序好所以希望等一下就可以大家來認同這樣的議事錄不予確認謝謝"},{"start":372.486,"end":383.759,"text":"下午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時至上午10時"}]}},{"id":"158474","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158474","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0a9bed76d2adee67b7ba98e9ef8f04f2c7c1494669c19844fd4739e4e9503208b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:18:00 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灣只不過是一個經理人在發聲公平委員完全是站在整個外商的立場對於本土一針一血一人一物都是來自台灣的企業人才的培訓然後他們都到國外去發展"},{"start":252.054,"end":271.213,"text":"像這樣的一個產業生態我想這個今天秘書長來我一定要讓你清楚第二個除了部門組織之外第二個你覺得公平會做一個仲裁監理的單位他可以像經濟部一樣嗎我們的公務人員是可以要很密切的"},{"start":271.954,"end":283.221,"text":"跟業界結合我們哪一個師長哪一個那個署長現任的署長、師長對於現在產業的所有的工協會不認識的"},{"start":285.97,"end":292.931,"text":"你告訴我如果說哪一個工協會不認識而且還常常會徵詢他們的意見我們現在要簽這個相關的國外的這個區域經濟的契約你們產業是怎麼樣你們有沒有什麼困難一個COVID-19下去趕快打電話你們有需要什麼服務平常一個漲價物料的漲價經濟部就趕快的下去你們需要什麼資源"},{"start":313.215,"end":325.318,"text":"而不像公平會說一個帳價我趕快查一下哪一個是哪一個是這個哪一個在囤貨齊貨可居光是一個帳價兩個單位的屬性都不一樣所以秘書長在這邊本席是主張在多層次傳銷你要不要重新啟動讓它回歸讓它給經濟部的這個商業司去處理您做個回應吧"},{"start":343.029,"end":343.336,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":344.571,"end":372.95,"text":"平估當然可以再重新再評估看看那當然就是說業務上的調整這個當然是行政院可以有一些想法不過如果以目前來講業務歸屬在公平會的話因為公平會是獨立機關他的內部怎麼樣做決定我們就比較比較沒有辦法去但是他沒有辦法做決定還有秘書長你知道他弱化到什麼程度所有打開行政院所有的委員會"},{"start":373.971,"end":396.93,"text":"只有公平會主委說我這個委員制我什麼都不能做決定我尊重委員您做過國發會主委光是一個小到不行的僑委會主委那個講話的氣勢啊面對所有台商講話的氣勢啊農業部現在在農委會你看像我們的陸委會我們的主委"},{"start":398.167,"end":423.281,"text":"副主委講的話只有公平會主委說我們這件事情我們交給委員會處理委員會怎麼決定他弱化到這種程度你覺得他你剛才講的我們這個產業給他管會有什麼未來嗎現在的這些的績效全部都是本土產業自己打下了天下我們哪有臉說那個是我們的政績啊只有公平會自己會在這個簡報上說哇這個是我們的多人事專家多麼的好我就覺得汗顏啊"},{"start":427.223,"end":442.081,"text":"哪一點你有去輔導過人家你不要找人家不要這邊給人家騷擾就好了一個活動你知道他管制到什麼程度嗎我一個行銷啊我第一季做的行銷到第二季的行銷我要改變行銷的方式我要跟他報備你覺得這個產業會發展嗎"},{"start":445.438,"end":451.663,"text":"秘書長您直接給我回一些時間的關心您要不要啟動重新省慎的啟動行銷那你不要聽他們的你真的有一個真的在經濟發展當中能夠有主導的一個第三方單位來做你如果聽他們的還是一樣啊因為他小到不行啊他無力到不行啊他無形隱形到不行啊他幾乎都可以消失在你把它撤掉你覺得你行政院有什麼影響"},{"start":473.26,"end":487.718,"text":"你絕對沒影響經濟部撤掉你會不會影響你影響到不行啊教育部如果撤掉你會不會影響會啊公平會把它撤掉會不會影響不會你看他小到這種地步一個橋尾會撤掉你會不會震動啊會"},{"start":490.521,"end":505.767,"text":"小到不行的小委會我們都覺得他的重要性公平會給他撤掉你都不會覺得他重要他只在辦什麼他在辦學術研討不好意思謝主席您回應一下您要不要重新啟動什麼時候開始要交出這個評估報告直接你講我都無所謂你講黃金十年我也接受"},{"start":511.854,"end":515.845,"text":"還是讓我召開一個跨部會的協調會,看看大家的意見跟想法。"}]}},{"id":"158472","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158472","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0313c82a2f19fbdf083be44f6eda3de937c1494669c19844f56ce73f1065489d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:11:20 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Eats跟Fupenda的事件好,你們解了一顆炸彈你們解了一顆炸彈你們拒絕沒有接受可是我相信公平會不是只有一件Uber Eats跟Fupenda未來還會有更多"},{"start":79.926,"end":107.83,"text":"但是我們的態度呢這一次是因為你們趕緊在要審查之前然後通過然後發布這個審查所謂合併案不通過的這樣的一個結果可是如果未來你們這四位都通過了通過之後還有好幾年的任用期我們是不是也可以看到你們對於"},{"start":109.469,"end":121.854,"text":"吳柏毅跟福潘達這樣的一個果斷可以嗎?你們對這個事件的果斷我們看得出來、看得到嗎?未來會看得到嗎?這一件你們很果斷"},{"start":124.226,"end":127.807,"text":"在你們過去所有的資料民眾的檢舉案到你們手上幾乎都輕輕犯過都查無實證"},{"start":150.169,"end":169.665,"text":"請問,那民眾用心用力去搜了這些證據有什麼用?沒用啊!到你們手上還是完全不予處理,因為他無實證。我再說,我一直很強調,而且非常要求在多層次傳銷"},{"start":172.688,"end":191.497,"text":"這種詐騙這麼多我們是不是可以把我們的報備制改為許可制也就是我們的公平會做直接有要求有力道的這樣的一個審查可是你們是拒絕的你們是拒絕的主委從你們拒絕到現在請問多城市傳銷"},{"start":199.261,"end":213.199,"text":"案子有減少嗎?詐騙的案子有減少嗎?是越來越多耶是越來越多耶那怎麼辦?你認為你們有做到管控嗎?沒有啊案子越來越多"},{"start":218.615,"end":236.802,"text":"主委你們怎麼處理我想跟委員說明採許可制跟查處不合法的多層次傳銷行為我認為它是兩件事情也就是說不管它是許可制或者是這是你們為了要推卸自己的責任你們要推卸自己的責任所講的你們要推卸自己的責任所講的報備跟許可它的強度不一樣"},{"start":245.988,"end":250.311,"text":"這絕對有相關性是你們為了不讓自己有這麼麻煩的權責你們不願意把武器拿在手上所以你才會這麼說"},{"start":274.215,"end":278.17,"text":"所以我對於你多層次傳銷這種處理態度我是非常不滿極度不滿"},{"start":283.953,"end":308.188,"text":"你剛才說報備制跟許可制這個跟後續的多層次傳銷的詐騙無關我們依據的查處的法律是一樣的所以不管是不是許可制或是報備制我們應該去研究一下你在源頭的加強管理密度就不一樣了你在源頭加強的管理密度就不一樣了你怎麼能夠讓這些消小他們想要去詐騙的人"},{"start":314.701,"end":315.021,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"158496","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158496","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e074934822a961d2c47ba98e9ef8f04f2c49d0b5afa0c2001b7e16859af7a544885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:15:44 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825,"end":314.646,"text":"檢到未來我們的議員是不是還要有家鄉的空間來請主委你回答一下。感謝委員,我們會跟太平的法庭多名的菸絲輪流攀,當然像新北斯也攀過,"},{"start":332.798,"end":341.465,"text":"法連、電電都判過。不管在行人過渡的素材,也在渡市的素材,我們很會討論,也拜託各位。未來我們也希望會培養客家的藝術團體,也在他們的訓練,訓練的功效做得到全台灣。因為主委,我是覺得議員這個區塊,你們會給他很多的阻礙,"},{"start":361.039,"end":367.102,"text":"無未來,我認為我們的客家的單位,這些年輕的客家的主管會越來越久。我認為這你要非常去了解一下,還有我們客家的時候的補助、的客製當中,你有看到越多費,口越好,要不然我們要補償國家的基金的時候,當然,你會認為說"},{"start":390.014,"end":393.155,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"},{"start":413.302,"end":420.246,"text":"差不多75%至80%所以在這問題要如何讓高齡年人去參加這個期間這是最重要的在這裏最後主席再給我一個時間我要跟主委說不說照顧戰在所有我們自己的長照"},{"start":441.696,"end":447.237,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至"},{"start":470.681,"end":474.502,"text":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央政府總預算案。"},{"start":490.947,"end":491.487,"text":"午10時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":510.234,"end":526.16,"text":"北宮長照這個所在心事你會如何對客家委員會及客家委員會來照顧來?你回答這個問題。我跟金一鋒在一起提防聯絡,因為要提防到省場。經濟不出方法提出省場,要好好聯絡。"},{"start":536.26,"end":559.267,"text":"沒有啦,主委我知道我們一個會議不是我們所有在這裡的委員去會議啦我知道是地方政府會議跟英國會議是不是你們可以拜託我們的審判人員到當地好不好,以上好,好,好,感謝美燕謝謝,不好意思"},{"start":562.281,"end":566.658,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11"}]}},{"id":"158492","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158492","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e088d2519d09eff3bf4f10c035d50fc64849d0b5afa0c2001be63f43b907692b255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:02:47 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照案執行之後 後面有一個救濟的程序暫時處分 先復議 暫時處分 然後再釋憲 對不對這三種狀況的話 個人估計 如果按照上次執權行使法的擴權法案到整個那個大法官會議解釋出來之後 憨不啷噹大概半年之久啦5月17通過之後 到半年之久 到10月25號所以半年之久的時候 你要因應的就是兩雙軌嘛 兩個路線"},{"start":149.691,"end":171.086,"text":"第一個,我們來執行啊,你現在所編那個總預算照案通過你就按照這種方式執行,也就是沒有3減3753億的狀況下去執行,對不對?是不是?照案執行就是這樣子嘛我也不能照案執行,我必須先控管,不然...對,控管齁,就控管萬一事件沒有過的話,3753就在後半年的時候來執行嘛"},{"start":172.347,"end":192.45,"text":"所以說你現在是雙軌並進的方式嘛如果那3753放在後面如果萬一事先沒有執行的話那3753就要開始處理嘛對不對那3753處理之後呢接下來呢後續的部分你還有面臨一個雙軌的問題也就是明年開始你要編總預算啊是不是"},{"start":193.496,"end":212.317,"text":"那你是不是一樣要雙軌進行?是不是?一個是屬於如果假設事件有成功的話也就是說或許認為大法官會解釋說這個通過的財政收支方法基本上是違憲的話那你是不是按照原來的假案對不對?"},{"start":213.098,"end":233.515,"text":"那麼議案的部分呢是不是變成說如果說事件失敗的話那是不是你還有另外一個可能性就是說你要編那是不是你不是告訴本席明年的這個預算是不是要編兩種走兩種途徑對不對所以實際執行是有他的困難在對阿是不是要用雙軌的方式嘛我問你嘛要面對這個問題嘛是"},{"start":235.163,"end":260.514,"text":"但是中央部會各個部會編兩種預算嘛對不對那是不是以後的縣市政府也要編兩種的預算你是不是要跟地方的主計人員是這樣告知有可能啊因為這種屬於不確定的狀態嘛屬於可能凍結的狀態嘛凍結的狀況底下你經過半年持久很有可能一個走向有效一個走向無效嘛是不是"},{"start":261.437,"end":275.607,"text":"所以不論是明年的預算的執行面也好或者明年的預算的編列面也好都會面臨雙軌的部分主席長你是不是要拆開四種可能性來去進行明年的整個預算編列與執行是不是"},{"start":276.172,"end":298.314,"text":"所以我們本身就說他在編預算、抽編預算方面會有很大的一個困難不是很大的困難嘛講白一點更何況你剛剛講了3到5個月讓你整個四限案明年如果按照我剛剛推估半年之後你到說3753要執行你說要重編有可能嗎因為3到5個月不是到年底了嗎"},{"start":299.349,"end":327.612,"text":"主計長你要直接的講出你的困難點啦因為你現在沒有辦法重編嘛你現在沒有辦法重編嘛還是你要進行重編不可能嘛不可能的情況底下你要等到四限完以後再重編的話那不是到年底了嗎對不對是不是主計長你要回答我不要點頭啊是是這樣子嘛所以非常的可能自然難行的情況底下你要講清楚你要講清楚所以你等到四限暫時的狀態你也沒有辦法處理"},{"start":329.409,"end":330.009,"text":"主委長,您要回答"},{"start":349.753,"end":375.473,"text":"是目前如果說是現在未定的狀態那我必須先控管3753不能執行好這是一個關鍵問題嘛好那你今天你今天昨天在報紙上又有提到說如果說錢要隨同事權要隨同錢來做移轉嘛昨天有提到這一個嘛要修正所謂的這個行政行政作用法嘛好那你口中的行政作用法是哪些法"},{"start":376.704,"end":396.912,"text":"例如說有關那個地方制度法相關事權的一個還有一個相關的例如說龍寶啊老寶相關的一個負擔的一個機關的一個修改負擔的修改也就是說應該下放給地方還要下放給地方嘛老寶啦龍寶啦等等還有地方制度法的事權的一個下放責任的下放錢的下放好那問題來了那個莊部長"},{"start":399.215,"end":411.75,"text":"拜託,這個修法的工作就是您相關的工作啦。部長,你之前一直講說不應該倡訴立法,你跟地方政府一直有在進行溝通嘛,對不對?你覺得你這個地方溝通還會不會持續進行?"},{"start":418.477,"end":439.33,"text":"幾個指標都濃縮有個共識唯一沒有共識是三個我想這個指標的定義我們之前花很多那是橫向的部分嗎每一個指標對要不然就指標背後的含義大家要用一個權重比嘛用釐清然後才能夠彙整加下來接下來就是權重權重以及調整系數因為其實我們在跟地方政府討論的時候地方政府的意見都能夠充分的表達"},{"start":440.01,"end":468.165,"text":"比如說人口的部分部分縣市也告訴你說你不能只用單一人口數因為人口裡面有結構的問題沒有我只問您說你會不會持續跟他們做溝通還有包括地方制度法你有沒有打算要修地方制度法你要保留一個重修的可能性嘛有沒有可能因為為什麼部長我提醒你一點如果說將來真的有要執行所謂的這3753例的時候那個困擾可能不是你喔地方政府很大困擾喔是不是"},{"start":469.205,"end":483.619,"text":"如果今天拿到的錢是直接把它分掉福利那很好處理啊可是現在的錢如果是要執行事情的話那要耗費很多的人力欸還有包括他今年度的施政計畫當中有沒有包括這3753億啊"},{"start":485.901,"end":500.972,"text":"對,因為在那個中央統籌分配稅款我們會在這個年度開始前的四個月之前就要通知各地方政府次年可以分得多少那他就根據這樣子去編列預算所以他原來的預算裡面並沒有含這個3753億嘛他工作計畫都沒有這些他拿到這個錢要怎麼規劃 對不對所以說你從這個角度來說也是自愛難行嘛 對不對"},{"start":511.465,"end":518.548,"text":"所以那個部長我要跟您說的是說你在之前的溝通的那個部分著重於水平分配那接下來是中央的這個分配的配置的情況底下或許將來他們遇到的問題說其實我真的不需要這麼多錢"},{"start":535.276,"end":535.796,"text":"拜託請主計長"},{"start":555.019,"end":565.657,"text":"現在說宏觀調控的部分 剩下兩個可能性嘛一個是一般性的補助 一個是計畫性的補助嘛 對不對計畫性的補助應該沒有什麼太大的問題啊因為主控權在你嘛 是不是"},{"start":567.645,"end":586.824,"text":"是嘛那一般性的補助因為已經被匡列可是你當初一直講說呢因為行政院主計處一直講說114年度的是2051億嘛你好像你感覺上次叫115年這個所謂這個法才會執行一樣但事實上呢不得少於修正施行前的一年113年度其實是2303億"},{"start":588.766,"end":610.936,"text":"對不對是23031正確的講法是23031對啊是23031不是2051嘛所以這種情況底下我必須說如果說你這個一般性補助應該沒有也不是說毫無條件說要補就補嘛你總是要有一個執行的標準嘛它的效率它的執行率要怎麼樣你要不要給這筆錢有沒有一個標準在"},{"start":612.762,"end":642.071,"text":"因為一般性補助主要是在於均衡就是說有不均衡的部分我們給他一些的協助所以主要是第一個限制有差短的部分我們優先來補助那第二個就是說我們會補助他教育、社會還有基本設施相關的一個部分那他錢都已經夠了這些的補助應該也就不用了所以他主要的一些項目都已經不用了所以你要把一般性補助跟這個所謂的這個統籌的部分重疊的部分你要抓出來大家都好意你有沒有抓過"},{"start":642.95,"end":649.112,"text":"有那個不是說基本設施相關是10421042也就是在這個2000多億當中還有1042是重疊的這個就是以後可以縮減的空間"},{"start":659.276,"end":664.862,"text":"另外一個部分我必須要跟你講你這個主計長擔子很重我剛剛講說你要走雙軌未來走雙軌現在走雙軌之外你現在還面臨兩個問題欸行政權有他的行政權政策規劃的主張要落實"},{"start":675.794,"end":700.21,"text":"立法院現在是在野多數他也想要透過這個立法的方式來指揮你行政權譬如講最近又有多一個之前的禁法補助多了225億之前這一個公糧補助多了90億最近的健保費65歲免健保費又多65億也就是說落選的總統候選人他要完成他的政見透過立法的方式來執行"},{"start":702.011,"end":713.741,"text":"當選的總統候選人也有他的政見要執行啊你變成要執行兩個一個當選的一個是落選的三七五三一啊對他們來說是輔選的也就是說他們未來要輔選他們的那個縣市首長的選舉啊也就是當選的政見也要落實那個"},{"start":722.267,"end":723.83,"text":"如果執行當政者的這個狀況還有落選的狀況那你會不會舉債?"},{"start":735.017,"end":755.653,"text":"呃這個舉債的部分要請財政部好來財政部來15%嘛總共我跟你算過啦2685億嘛2685億嘛舉債其實我想各位委員也都重視所謂的財政紀律不輕易舉債而且對而且公共債務法裡面也有流量跟存量的管制對都有15%"},{"start":756.374,"end":759.696,"text":"即便15%你全部補 取代到2685你還是28%的3753你還是補助不到嘛 還是差1000億嘛而且財政要有韌性 財政紀律要維持嘛那我問你現在財政紀律有辦法維持嗎當選要落實他的政見啊 落選要落實他的政見啊"},{"start":775.909,"end":802.056,"text":"財政要有一定的空間留著不能全部把它用可是你要面對這個政治的現實啊比如說你像發生疫情等等的時候必須國家要有一個財政的能力來去應用那是後面的部分你還有一個舉債2.8兆當然是預留未來的變數我可以理解嘛但是現階段你就面臨一個雙重的問題落選人要落實他的政見當選人要落實他的政見否則的話你難道把當選的政見不執行要執行落選的嗎"},{"start":802.796,"end":803.016,"text":"謝謝郭國文委員"}]}},{"id":"158484","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158484","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0d91c7beb9336bf8583be44f6eda3de937c1494669c19844f9e5184f6a42873d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"09:43:14 - 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謝謝主席 我們請李美貝提名人請李美貝提名人是 四位你雖然說是貝提名人 但是你是屬於是尋求連任的那在這次的四位裡面的話大概三位都是要尋求連任只有一位在競爭處也當過處長也都應該是熟悉了我們公平會的這個業務所以我們希望你們未來能夠公平會可以盡量做到符合社會的這個期待"},{"start":38.294,"end":65.717,"text":"那如何要去符合社會的期待那你有什麼對提升執法的一個效能呢?謝謝委員我們主要的業務一個是執法一個是國際合作一個是讓台灣的競爭環境更為公平那在從我四年前擔任主委之後我對於整個台灣經濟環境的發展非常重視所以我們對於尤其是數位經濟發展下可能面臨的問題"},{"start":66.698,"end":66.738,"text":"主席"},{"start":85.201,"end":96.789,"text":"這個否決了這個這個合併案喔但是我們看到這個Fundamentale他的德國這個母公司是屬於虧損的所以他現在也毅然決然就決定要退出這個臺灣市長那這樣子的話吳柏毅的話就變成自然獨占那自然獨占的話這個這個競爭上就有失公平齁那請問"},{"start":104.455,"end":105.616,"text":"公平法對於獨佔這件事情"},{"start":128.697,"end":155.73,"text":"不是當然違法而是要看在獨佔的這個市場力下有沒有濫用市場力所以我們一直討論這麼久的烏噴達跟Uber Eats主委這邊還是沒有了解為什麼說會自然獨佔為什麼會說會影響公平競爭跟限制競爭就是因為有外送員跟消費者跟店家會受到不平等的待遇會被他們壟斷"},{"start":156.91,"end":178.078,"text":"尤其是現在在我們整個外送平台已經是屬於數位化的經濟這一面的層級那未來的話他們大型的數位平台就會有整合資源跟擴大這個規模以及他們會進行的這個降低成本的做法就會用合併方式未來你們也會收到很多用合併的方式對不對"},{"start":179.939,"end":205.401,"text":"未來如果有任何的這個結合的情形我們當然要受...如果符合這個合併條...合併條件的話我們會受理那目前將來的Uber Eats也好FoodPanda也好任何事業他在從事競爭行為的時候一定要符合我們的規範當然要符合所以說現在的公平交易法是要與時俱進必須要修法去年你也說要修法那現在修了沒有進度在哪裡我們針對"},{"start":208.323,"end":228.463,"text":"我們發布的白皮書的內容有盤點一些短期、長期要做的一些作為那修法是一個比較要仔細的工作我們有提出草案但是要跟社會各界來評估這樣的草案是否適當我們有提出草案"},{"start":228.983,"end":258.206,"text":"所以我們希望說我們要了解到現在的市場上我們要公平競爭那有現在這個寡戰、獨佔這個問題發生的時候你們必須就要排除這個問題我們現在的公平交易法裡面有很多不適用的方法我們就必須要改變方式才能夠保障到整個市場的營運你說對不對?謝謝委員當然法律要與時俱進不過現行的公平交易法對於獨佔、寡戰聯合其實都已經有完整的規定"},{"start":259.304,"end":259.464,"text":"我們會評估"}]}},{"id":"158483","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158483","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e05a0736cc950619a883be44f6eda3de937c1494669c19844fcb54f3cad6a66c335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:36:48 - 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島這個事情我問你一個很重要的點進行啊你們說搞不好都要再延60天延到明年的3月21號對不對那後來為什麼這麼快馬上就做了決定這裡面的轉折是什麼"},{"start":219.025,"end":245.759,"text":"我跟委員說明我們對於結合案件當言則言當決則決因為當事人最後能夠到公平會陳述意見這是必要的正當程序他能夠來公平會陳述意見的時間是12月17號我們的法定應該做審決的時間是19號只有兩天當言則言所以我們必須要延但不是延了90天就一定要用到最後的90天"},{"start":245.919,"end":251.743,"text":"國外17號來說明以後我們委員會聽過這些陳述的內容我們開委員會注意 包括這些公司來他們有做了什麼說明跟重要的要求這個事業對各界的回應等等都有做說明那經過我們委員會開會討論覺得這個案子限制競爭的利益這個疑慮還是很大所以委員間意見相當共識相當高那當決則決"},{"start":274.818,"end":296.345,"text":"我再問一個多城市傳銷的這個事情,很多新聞都出現這個,特別很多年輕人啊,學生老是這個,被他們拉進去,我看你們上次有裁判過,在2020.1﹖有,我們裁判最高法定的這個法環﹖最高嘛﹖可是這個事情一直現在進行式啊﹖"},{"start":297.307,"end":303.773,"text":"所以你是處罰完以後就沒事了?媒體動不動幾天一兩個禮拜就有說學生受害欸?如果繼續有這樣不當行銷的行為,我們當然要繼續查處。另外要請問一下,你知道雞蛋吹現在過剩的價格跌得很慘對不對?我們消費者都沒有,消費者是買那麼貴啊。"},{"start":320.137,"end":339.619,"text":"所以該彈籠沒有賺到錢然後消費者買這麼貴這要怎麼解決這邊有沒有壟斷的問題公平法有沒有責任如果第一個彈架有特別法在處理如果這個依託特別法的規定而有聯合壟斷的情形公平法也是有處理的你有沒有去查有沒有"},{"start":341.201,"end":350.269,"text":"我們跟農業部都有這個互相緊密的聯繫所以有去查了嗎?我們有去了解有去查所以目前沒有啊目前沒有為什麼蛋那麼多這蛋農的價格那麼它賣出去這麼低啊我們在這裡賣這麼貴啊沒有查出任何的壟斷或者不當的這個行為"},{"start":357.301,"end":357.361,"text":"請回座"}]}},{"id":"158482","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158482","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e09abcba2284a608aa7ba98e9ef8f04f2c7c1494669c19844f42e813f5a017db975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:41:44 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我想請教一下那個李美貝提名人因為其實您也是現任的那個公平會的主委所以算是一個續任的狀態所以有些基本的部分我們可能就先把它跳過去那因為那天那個公平市長就是陪同你來做各黨團拜會的時候你們當天其實也剛好處理掉了大家之前在經濟委員會非常關心的一個"},{"start":32.45,"end":32.811,"text":"副主任委員．林慶堂"},{"start":50.373,"end":50.973,"text":"請同意案．鄭正鈐"},{"start":71.019,"end":71.7,"text":"李美貝提名了"},{"start":96.418,"end":117.726,"text":"謝謝委員 第一個問題就是說 如果Hupenda退出市場那Uber Eats在台灣繼續經營 我們還是要看它的市場力量如果它的市場力量很大 大到可能濫用市場地位 這個在公平交易法還有其他的限制競爭 甚至連這個獨佔的行為的一些規範的機制 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你想要哪"},{"start":116.021,"end":121.028,"text":"你嚇人你嚇人不是這樣嚇的啊嚇壞老百姓啊把臺灣老百姓都嚇死啊我們總共就是分給地方3753億結果你一天列就列7600億了你到底是什麼口惡老百姓喔"},{"start":131.121,"end":145.092,"text":"你是恐嚇人家喔?主計長啊?你出來就恐嚇喔?我們是以3兆1、114年3兆1扣掉1兆8了就是1法律1剩下1兆3那1兆3裡面的各項計畫必須3減28%這樣所以各計畫影響第一個我們原則是平均3減因為我們還沒討論到底3減哪一個計畫所以我們必須詳細討論你到底討論沒有"},{"start":159.303,"end":167.808,"text":"所以目前還沒有討論,但是要討論的時候就是目前一般性的通案3減28%,3753就要3減28%每一個計劃都要3減28%,這樣就7999的不對啊你總共就3700多億而已啊,你怎麼會變7999億啊,為什麼這樣子呢"},{"start":184.037,"end":185.118,"text":"這個副秘書長你也當過副主席長啊"},{"start":209.707,"end":237.766,"text":"你們這是報告給我看?總共一頁一張紙啊!有夠不負責任啦!對主席大不敬啦!對我們財務會大不敬啦!今天來講叫你說叫你提一個因應財劃法修正你們要需要重編是我要重編因為你們說重編結果你們總共就一頁然後跟有關係的只有在第三段寫了一下簡單來講就是不接受"},{"start":239.008,"end":260.948,"text":"你這意思百萬文講就是不接受那個龔秘書長是不是這個意思不接受跟委員說明齁那再次的說明不接受是不是發言人原意是對未明定施行日期所會產生的嚴重衝擊表達憂心阿就是不接受嘛就是不接受嘛"},{"start":262.529,"end":284.258,"text":"對嗎?你是不接受?我們是全國最高的民意機構通過的法律案然後你就一下子就草草的幾個字不接受,意思是不接受不接受好,我們來看那你們準備怎麼做?行政院準備怎麼做?要不要提復議?要不要?請問你?要不要提復議?"},{"start":288.29,"end":312.684,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為行政院還沒有收到那個財劃法修正的公文阿你真的講不接受啦那修到以後呢你都已經收到就不提是賦予對不對我們收到以後我們會在憲政賦予的權利之下那合法的秩序之下尋求各種你都知道賦予你絕對輸的阿阿所以再提示憲好重點在這裡"},{"start":314.468,"end":316.81,"text":"我們是會循著合法的憲政程序來提各種問題"},{"start":341.222,"end":366.851,"text":"現在來講如果你提示線那整個就是在pendinging阿這個等於3750起億就暫時的Pending在那裡如果再配合那個已經沒有法源的大法官的會議用8個9的大法官如果要把他解釋說暫時處分阿都互互攬摸一摸一喔就這個樣子喔"},{"start":368.749,"end":371.955,"text":"那你要考慮一下喔現在預算還在審喔預算還在審喔"},{"start":375.151,"end":378.752,"text":"因為剛剛主計長也說明過了那個是他們挑出來受影響的計畫那裡面的影響的金額的話約略會有28%受到影響並不是全部"},{"start":404.981,"end":406.302,"text":"7,599億幫你通緝是這個樣子主計長你可以看"},{"start":416.737,"end":434.473,"text":"請問你有沒有對各縣市的主計人員下達命令比如說台北市、台南市、高雄市這些主計人員說你們要配合修法有沒有做這個事有沒有有沒有下達命令"},{"start":435.916,"end":442.5,"text":"我們目前只有做調查就是說曾家的財源縣市希望要做哪些的一個項目目前正在匯總當中"},{"start":461.621,"end":472.011,"text":"我去問過幾個縣市了他們說錢只要下來他們馬上辦追加預算地方政府一點都沒有問題可以辦追加預算一聲立下辦追加預算問題都沒有問題"},{"start":481.277,"end":507.998,"text":"所以我強烈的執意要講不要亂砍計劃心得不住要砍哪一些你剛講7599億這樣就亂嚇人我們來看來其實啊要調整的就可以調整啦台電郭志輝部長講了N次啊他可以借錢啊你為什麼給他追加預算一千億呢"},{"start":509.787,"end":518.653,"text":"暫緩台電1000億的增資暫緩淺建2800億國安委員會已經講了分三期不要一次通過2800分三期900多暫緩以緩計期加起來就3000億了然後經濟部、數碼部亂補助一通加一加"},{"start":536.883,"end":542.165,"text":"三千七百多億輕輕的都挖用不用心根本不是回到第一哪裡有這個東西你們就是用這個來恐嚇老百姓來整老百姓你看有租金補貼你看有掃紙畫你看有污水處理恐嚇老百姓"},{"start":564.278,"end":564.538,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":574.838,"end":604.838,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":606.755,"end":614.699,"text":"我完全是政治鬥爭的語言喔我們要砍一砍去找可以找到錢不會影響民生的不會影響國防的對你怎麼影響一筆一揮哇通影響"},{"start":632.823,"end":660.896,"text":"這個叫做隨便亂講就是用政治語言陳主計長原來我對你印象還不錯但是你提供這個表老實講讓我對你的評價腰斬腰斬啦你這個叫政治語言啦用政治語言嚇老百姓說你看通理印象齁燒紙貨印象齁自販印象齁物稅處理印象齁沒有立委看你這個東西啊"},{"start":661.996,"end":681.994,"text":"我剛講的回到我剛那一頁經濟部的2000億砍掉啦不要急啦因為他自己可以借錢啊他有辦法而且你還有稅基剩餘部長財政部長請問你今年稅基剩餘有多少稅基剩餘是在組總這邊來計算的"},{"start":684.795,"end":685.215,"text":"到現在為止114年呈現的是158億"},{"start":700.464,"end":727.92,"text":"一百一一四一百五十八一一三是七千多億但是七千多億這個部分那個部分是因為第一個我要支付三三千九百多億的一個那個預後的一個相關的金額那是特別預算還有一個就是我支應我今年一一四的五百億好五百億這個部分我去我支援一一四年度的預算還有一個我我有一個那個以前非營利事業的一個"},{"start":728.9,"end":734.366,"text":"主計長我希望你把我這句話聽進去一開始大家認為主計是專業的你不要把他搞政治化你不要說七頭四肚通砍他十八哪裡有這樣子的"},{"start":748.382,"end":771.861,"text":"每一個計劃都要討論當然我跟委員報告你減少結構性每一年都要減3753但是你這個部分我台電重視我台電減2000億也是今年度可以減我沒辦法每一年減2000億所以你這結構性3753每年要減的部分就造成影響所以這個部分我要跟委員特別說這個是一個資源分配的問題我們三讀同步的法律"},{"start":777.898,"end":801.216,"text":"你按照一定的程序去救濟。如果到最後輸了,你還是要照序啊。你還是要想辦法啊。對不對?我剛剛說過了啊。不是所有的這些民生的去砍他嘛。我已經再強調一遍了。經濟部肥肉那麼多,亂補助。還要補助NVIDIA。NVIDIA有多少啊?幾兆美金啊?還稀罕你那麼一點點錢。"},{"start":803.057,"end":803.658,"text":"賴士葆賴士葆賴"},{"start":832.336,"end":849.836,"text":"最後一句話主計長對外面溝通不要用政治語言你列出來這個表就是政治語言這是政治鬥爭用的我對你今天的提出這個表表達非常強烈的不滿跟遺憾不要這樣子因為"},{"start":850.857,"end":850.997,"text":"謝謝賴司保委員"}]}},{"id":"158494","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158494","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e01765488051c944b77ba98e9ef8f04f2c49d0b5afa0c2001b9616e932440b99205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:58:42 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0時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時"},{"start":172.633,"end":198.831,"text":"這樣子講下來已經有非常非常多的計劃我也非常的樂見所以第一你把這個計劃看是公告在哪裡因為我是等於是提出一個方向喔我說的是在我們的社團當中以客家社團了因為你也同意最能夠延續這個我們客家文化的其實是地方的熱心社團所以我們同意要給客家社團大力的補助這你同意嘛對不對這第一年目前已經整堆全團法那三團都有"},{"start":202.113,"end":206.677,"text":"對,您已經這樣說了。很好。而且再進一步而言對於社團裡面願意做青年的你還願意更大力的補助同時又對青年也開了這樣的計畫這些都沒有問題嘛對不對所以第一個麻煩您告訴我們這個正確的資料也告訴我們在客委會這邊哪裡可以比如客委會的網頁上面可以直接看出來這個是我本席對你的第一個要求啦沒有問題吧好主委"},{"start":227.574,"end":228.034,"text":"目前還沒公開的資訊。"},{"start":245.766,"end":249.749,"text":"如果是叫每一個地方政府來做的話這你認為適合嗎?他應該是共同來做但是重點是我們的青年應該是不分全國哪一個縣市他都應該能夠有同樣的資源同樣的機會在同樣的方向之下去得到這些資源我這個概念應該也沒有錯吧"},{"start":274.648,"end":281.551,"text":"不分縣市嘛 對不對所以反過來講你不分縣市都可以來爭取這個資源但也應該不分縣市都可以平均得到相等的資源這樣才是對全台灣的青年公平的狀態對全台灣的客庄青年公平這個問題也沒有問題嘛 對不對好那接下來那我就請教主委了主委你知道我們上個禮拜上上個禮拜剛通過新的財政收支劃分法對不對好"},{"start":304.18,"end":323.173,"text":"財政收支劃分法我們現在如果新法通過執行之後一次會從中央拿走將近3700多億的預算3700多億的預算是一個什麼樣的概念呢以中央部會來講的話最多的其實是國防部4700億那再來就是衛福部跟教育部大概是3700和3600"},{"start":326.135,"end":327.297,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":341.859,"end":347.886,"text":"消失的預算,這也沒有問題嗎?對不對?所以主委我的問題是那你客委會受到多少影響?你估算過了沒有?20%喔?"},{"start":363.242,"end":363.603,"text":"一般型計畫一般型的預算跟"},{"start":387.998,"end":401.569,"text":"一般性的預算跟計劃型的預算那一般性的他還說不能夠比前一年少所以看起來能夠影響的就是計劃型的經費囉好那你回到地方政府來看欸我覺得這有一點可怕欸"},{"start":403.43,"end":415.773,"text":"因為客家委員會所有的計劃型補助都是跟地方型相關的而且我回去看我們新北市政府客家事務局的預算我們114年舉例來講我們的稅務預算是4160萬元可是我們從中央拿到的補助及協助收入是多少是3817萬通通都是來自中央型的補助及協助收入你細看下去"},{"start":432.717,"end":447.434,"text":"其實就是全部都是計劃型的預算啊計劃型的補助所以等於114年如果我們按照現在通過的財化法新的財化法來講的話我們九成的預算有可能會受到影響啊主委"},{"start":448.996,"end":464.162,"text":"那不要說我們剛剛一開始講的所有全國的青年不應該因為他所在的縣市不同未來得到的補助方式不一樣甚至是連地方政府的預算"},{"start":464.722,"end":484.134,"text":"其實看起來都會受到大大的影響我們未來好像看起來多了新北市370億但我們從光是從客委會得到的計畫型補助很有可能就少了很多你剛剛說少三成嘛平均每個縣市如果都公平的少三成那我們不得了我們要怎麼運作啊"},{"start":485.054,"end":500.965,"text":"這個是很大的問題,請問你們跟地方政府有討論過了嗎?未來怎麼因應?目前很忙討論,不過人家的百分之一是擺在感受,會感受到同樣的期間,要有的推動,不出提防政府跟沙團都會影響那個全面性的"},{"start":502.446,"end":520.402,"text":"主席我覺得這是一個很嚴肅的問題法律通過當然現在立法院就是我們尊重少數服從了多數服從多數通過的法律到底會產生什麼樣的後續影響其實現在正要開始所以我想這個問題既然我們這個上週這個才化法已經這樣通過了現在在"},{"start":526.167,"end":533.33,"text":"到底有沒有要附屬有沒有要復利等等那當然還不知道可是問題已經開始浮現我要求啊我也拜託可以盡快和地方縣市政府來討論我們地方的預算以及未來的權責要怎麼分不然的話這個顯然災難才正要開始這是我們為地方爭取預算之餘也希望配套能夠進行的好所以這部分可以吧"},{"start":553.84,"end":570.246,"text":"你們應該要立即開始進行討論吧。我們會等待行政院有明確的指示以後,我們就會來跟提防政府。主委加油啦,這是一個很大很大的問題,希望你們要好好討論。好,感謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝蘇喬惠委員。接下來請張宏祿召委。"}]}},{"id":"158495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0ac63211d87b6f39c7ba98e9ef8f04f2c49d0b5afa0c2001b97110b78856a118c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:08:32 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Eats的市場力很大甚至到獨佔的地位我們現行公平交易法對於獨佔的這個不可以有的行為還有對其他限制競爭濫用市場力的行為都有規範我們同樣會密切的關注"},{"start":135.76,"end":147.645,"text":"這樣的發展密切關注對現在就是我是覺得要超前部署啦因為這個是一個可見的未來嘛非常有可能嘛對因為副部長現在就是感覺要退出台灣市場的決心還蠻強的啦"},{"start":150.151,"end":167.347,"text":"所以不是說這一關你把它卡掉之後好像後續我們就靜觀其變我只是覺得應該要事先掌握而且上一次我給你建議你未來要審查類似案子的時候應該要要求外送平台要做好一些偏鄉的服務因為有時候偏鄉根本都叫不到"},{"start":167.907,"end":184.88,"text":"所以他們市場過於集中嘛然後另外我再問一個也是另外一個併購案你們的態度是什麼?就是日本汽車現在尼桑、HONDA跟Mitsubishi已經在談判合併了那我們公平會現在有沒有掌握到他們的合併案?未來可能對台灣的汽車市場的影響有沒有?"},{"start":185.34,"end":212.353,"text":"這部分我們有看到相關的新聞那是不是符合臺灣的結合的門檻好如果符合結合門檻會到公平會來申請對當然了那我們會去注意門檻是怎麼樣我會看這個結合當事人的市佔率銷售金額做整個綜合的我知道我知道我是說原則上是怎樣你不要講原則啦我是說就這個個案你們有沒有掌握這個我了解我這個案子了解這個案子是要及早因應啊是好謝謝好謝謝來"}]}},{"id":"158490","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e01c2d8f25dc76071d83be44f6eda3de9349d0b5afa0c2001bd6c7337b7bc4e0405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:04:50 - 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Eats跟Panda的合併案那其實我們也關心了這個議題很久的時間那到時候"},{"start":23.456,"end":45.809,"text":"你們本來在12月19號之前你們有說這個需要再可能還要再延兩個月60個工作天昨晚到3月21號才會公佈結果那結果沒想到這個在12月25號你們就已經做出了這個禁止結合的決議時間一下就可以說到那麼短了"},{"start":47.719,"end":48.559,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":65.806,"end":89.407,"text":"為了閉門我們在這個委員會討論的時候會需要再一些補充所以當言則言我們言了那這個言就是60天的工作天就是到3月不等於我們要把它到3月才什麼最常是在言60個工作天啊那因為你們當初這樣講的時候在野黨還是還認為說你們是不是用這個審查來綁這個今天這個公平會主委的這個還有委員的這個審查權啊還背了這個黑鍋啊"},{"start":90.828,"end":118.31,"text":"但是我當時不適合說17號當事人會來陳述意見因為這是一個很個別的案情那當事人陳述意見之後我們開委員會討論委員會的共識度相當高當決則決所以我們做出所以對於這一個兩個合併案禁止他們合併案其實你們委員的的共識就相當高就對了你們有幾個委員參與這個這個評議啊我們有七位委員七位然後最後七位都有這個共識嗎我們有經過充分的討論"},{"start":119.051,"end":138.325,"text":"有經過充分討論所以最後七位就是構思決就是禁止合併嗎?我們有不同意見嗎?當然委員有不同的意見但是都是希望讓這個審查的你們最後有投票嗎?還是就構思決?一定要投票的那最後票數是幾比幾?"},{"start":139.546,"end":165.367,"text":"我們有6位委員是贊成另外一位委員也不是全然反對只是覺得說這個審議的內容我們分析的論述希望能夠更完整那這個他們會不會再打這個行政訴訟的救濟這個要看當事人自己的這個判斷那你們這個出來之後20號出來之後他們有跟你們講什麼嗎"},{"start":166.787,"end":189.499,"text":"我們發布新聞稿之後我在媒體上有看到他們的說明基本上本案收到決定書之後事業如何去回應我們的決定書我想這是事業自己會去判斷所以你們就只有看到他們的新聞稿就對了他也沒有再找你們再說什麼就對了"},{"start":192.533,"end":209.93,"text":"那請問一下那有沒有可能就是說那個Fu 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所以本席要請教在簡歷當中你提到公平會是要接地氣孤立而獨立而不孤立獨立而不孤立所以本席要提醒就剛才本席所說的像這樣重大"},{"start":203.865,"end":205.206,"text":"我認同,那也容許我說明一下為什麼我沒有這個17號當事人陳述意見這件事情其實我們很早就"},{"start":229.421,"end":251.641,"text":"主委你既然認同本席要請教也希望謹慎之也就是在整個公平會處理外送平台的這個案子以專業產業發展跟權益保障的角度來做考量所以本席要請教你未來會支持外送員產業相關的專法嗎"},{"start":256.146,"end":277.482,"text":"外送員的產業專法他涉及的面向非常廣那我想這個可能要行政這個整個行政機關可能會協調當然橫向的勞動部都已經有提出所以本席也希望你要支持這個外送員的產業專法然後讓我們整個台灣的這一塊平台能夠真正的穩定落實"},{"start":279.258,"end":294.309,"text":"楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"158478","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158478","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e02900ac62d03977ea4f10c035d50fc6487c1494669c19844fb8cb1959c7f2e8ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:23:16 - 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我想預算的編列是非常重大的事情沒有 有沒有聽到嘛這個部分你有沒有聽到嘛我沒有注意到這個你沒有注意到兩位都沒有注意到行政院記者會花妍能是代表行政院院長餒不是"},{"start":94.864,"end":113.653,"text":"因為我們必須要說的是重編這個事情因為涉及到整個總預算收到立法院了你不要講了如果你有聽到議會的記者們也都有聽到那請問你為什麼部長你會沒有聽到記者都有聽到只有你沒有聽到"},{"start":114.633,"end":139.728,"text":"我不是說我沒有聽到因為那一天他的意思就是說財劃法那天通過以後的山盧通過以後的對這個相關的一些施政會有嚴重的衝擊不要狡辯本席很少這麼生氣講實在話做事情你要面對現實包括主計長你在台南當主計長的時候"},{"start":142.305,"end":144.496,"text":"賴市長那時候你再當他的主計長"},{"start":145.68,"end":161.525,"text":"你是不是你的論文措施論文也是根據這個財政要劃分有沒有主計長報告委員時空環境不一樣喔對換了個位置就換了個腦袋時空環境不一樣卓氏金輝就對了啦條件不一樣卓氏金輝就對了啦我們是薪水付不出來這麼嚴重"},{"start":174.81,"end":199.867,"text":"四年我們的超增一兆八千多億每年超增四千五百億你有沒有統計過但是報告委員超增是暫時性的並不是我們修改是結構性的我們統計有12年有6年是短差的以上那個部長我再請教難道行政院記者會容許會後各說各話各自解讀嗎"},{"start":200.908,"end":228.147,"text":"可以嗎我們沒有各自解讀也沒有各自解讀但是你們剛剛所講的包括你那天所講的就是各自解讀反之如果你也沒有聽到那是不是意味著財政部主計處都認為修法是事小還不到要總預算重編的地步是不是這樣子修法事小跟委員報告因為總預算行政院已經籌編完成並請送請大院審議目前大院已在審議當中對"},{"start":229.789,"end":236.643,"text":"暗示那天 對不對 行政院發言人所講的你們都是當耳邊風因為他是代表行政院院長 對不對部長、主計長"},{"start":241.421,"end":259.539,"text":"財劃法三讀後．行政院不是開記者會說自愛難行．對明年總預算有嚴重的衝擊．不然就是拿原鄉預算、教育預算．以及金工教加薪來威脅不同的群體．甚至於連國防預算．"},{"start":261.08,"end":283.868,"text":"預應的津貼都能用來恐嚇全民。主計長：如果對明年總預算有衝擊為什麼行政院明知道財劃法在立法院上會期充分的溝通而且立法院也做成了主決議要財政部這個會期你們要提出版本到現在行政院還亂扣帽子"},{"start":286.189,"end":299.608,"text":"在代表多數民意的立法院身上那我請問主計長在這個時機點你認為行政院有沒有提出修法新版本的可能會不會會不會你告訴我嘛"},{"start":303.604,"end":318.959,"text":"目前針對立法院通過的一個財劃法目前行政院正在研究相關的一個因應的措施所以這個部分我們等行政院研究出來這個措施之後我們配合辦理"},{"start":319.56,"end":339.273,"text":"那我請問你,如果行政院互裕失敗,事件也不如行政院預期一月到四月就要核定115年度這個施政方針以及總預算的籌編那我請問主計長,你認為115年度總預算編列有沒有困難度?有沒有?"},{"start":340.437,"end":360.98,"text":"當然是有困難的原則上其實我們扣除一般性就是依法律義務一兆八我們是三兆一嘛114是三兆一一一四年度為例三兆一扣掉一兆八一法律剩下一兆三那就要減百分之三十左右好那個主計長因為40年啊都沒有修的"},{"start":362.181,"end":378.433,"text":"財劃法代表多數民意的立法委員終於通過修法總統行政院就說倉促立法修法之前還說現在的版本是最好的版本那我請問主計長你認為現在的版本真的是最好的版本嗎"},{"start":379.497,"end":396.049,"text":"以目前來講因為我們有補助現在是2500億一般性的補助這個部分就佔6%但是過去這段時間你們是看顏色在補助啦你像蘇貞昌高雄申請一個漁港3000多萬他補助81億"},{"start":399.739,"end":419.107,"text":"對不對?你們為什麼不檢討?補助81億捏!3000多萬補助81億!如果真的最好的那我請問你為什麼賴總統在擔任台南市長的時候要強烈要求中央修財化法?當時的你也是台南市的主計處的處長到底支持還是反對賴市長?"},{"start":425.39,"end":440.453,"text":"你是支持還是反對賴市長你告訴我報告委員那時候台南市的狀況他是已經達到公債法的上限然後薪水發不出來的狀況那時候的情況和現在不一樣現在的一個部分"},{"start":441.555,"end":442.316,"text":"所以說你認為"},{"start":457.057,"end":476.689,"text":"你認為修財劃法這不是最好的版本因為面對將近40年沒有修訂的財劃法你認為沒有堅持推動修法和初心繼續提供總統修法迫切性的意見反而任意批評迫切修法代表多數民意的立委是不是這樣子"},{"start":477.549,"end":493.849,"text":"不是批評立委而是針對現有的狀況如果這樣的修法將會造成行政院的一個在執行上有很大的一個困難因為他必須刪減將近30%那會嚴重影響到各項的一個重大的一個建設"},{"start":495.455,"end":516.438,"text":"大家心智度明部長上個禮拜本席質詢你的時候預算是不是要重編如果要重編就不用審預算了結果你回答114年就要開始了怎麼重編因為中央施政怎麼去推動部長按照行政院花園人的說法明年度總預算會受到嚴重的衝擊"},{"start":517.879,"end":538.393,"text":"甚至於恐怕需要重編那媒體報導部長打你的臉行政院打你臉的這個媒體報導部長你打臉行政院的說法請問部長對於是不是要重編總預算的看法你看行政院是不是一致的"},{"start":540.034,"end":553.991,"text":"我那天已經跟委員報告114年在這個禮拜已經要開始了總預算也經過行政院籌編在大院審議當中各項施政都必須往前推進這個籌編他是知識體大的我覺得說得很清楚已經跟委員說明了"},{"start":557.595,"end":580.311,"text":"因為我剛剛也請教主計長如果行政院互遇失敗事件也不如行政院議期那我請問部長短期內財政部有沒有再提出修法的可能對於立法院深度通過財化法後續的相關的一些行政救濟等等的一些措施我們和主計總處還有行政院目前都在評估各種相關的措施當中部長"},{"start":581.272,"end":602.353,"text":"您說倉促修法改變現有財政的秩序影響各級政府財政的穩健這是另一個分配不均的開始那我請問部長修法前的財劃法是不是完全沒有分配不均的問題修法前的財劃法的情況我們都很了解因此是透過一般性補助款還有計劃型的補助款"},{"start":602.813,"end":602.913,"text":"所以說你才會說："},{"start":626.757,"end":632.382,"text":"被卓院長稱為最好的版本是不是因為這樣所以行政院不願意提修法的版本?是不是這樣子?但是立法院已經做過主決議而且要你們修你們都不提"},{"start":650.078,"end":670.926,"text":"處理好以後你們又來推翻要講三道事說三道事部長對於財劃法三讀通過後對中央施政的相關自愛你說財政部跟主計總處正在演繹中那我請問部長如果最後的結果還是要維持修法所謂的自愛難行財政部有沒有信心來克服有沒有"},{"start":671.526,"end":697.218,"text":"對於相關的制裁的部分剛剛主總在報告裡面已經分析得相當清楚了那對於有沒有要提財劃法的修正我們已經在之前已經想過財劃法的修正必須要爭取最大的一個共識來能夠減少一些爭議這個部分財政部一直在努力而且把相關的指標也濃縮後續就是權重已經調整的係數等等要去進一步的討論我覺得這個部分是財政部一直在努力的"},{"start":697.418,"end":708.116,"text":"那如果可以克服你認為財政部所堅持的水平垂直分配的指標會不會出現偏差?如果不能克服會不會考慮你要辭職下台?"},{"start":709.154,"end":732.347,"text":"對於我個人的質問並沒有任何的堅持但是我覺得把這個財劃法能夠做一個更好的調整一直是我們努力的方向其實大家都是相同的看法來我最後一個議題那個114年度課稅收入編列2.77兆創歷史新高而且比113年度預算成長19.88%那我請問部長修法後的財劃法對未來年度的課稅收入會不會有影響會不會"},{"start":738.587,"end":751.448,"text":"稅收入第一個我們在課稅收入的時候我們是先估比如說以所得稅來說我是先估全國的然後再按那個財劃法的規定的比例撥到專案統籌分配稅款進去當然是在比例的變動當然它的額度就會變動"},{"start":752.762,"end":781.829,"text":"其實事實上根據立法院預算中心對財政部評估報告指出114年度的總預算案課稅收入佔稅入結構比例是87.97%也就是支應各項正式支出最主要的財源但是課稅收入的準確度從110年度開始每年課稅收入時增數遠超過預算數更矛盾的是114年度"},{"start":783.812,"end":785.596,"text":"在預期經濟成長是3.26%第113年的3.9%"},{"start":792.884,"end":819.201,"text":"九下所編列的課稅收入．反而是113年度增加百分之19.88．更創歷史新高．那部長因為失準的課稅收入預算數．預計的經濟成長的成長率．對比矛盾的數字到底是怎麼一回事．意思就是說你成長的高．但是稅率收入少．成長的低反而多．其實這個問題很大"},{"start":821.13,"end":821.391,"text":"謝謝林德福"}]}},{"id":"158485","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158485","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0a24797a926a29b504f10c035d50fc6487c1494669c19844f7676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:37:24 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精神的時候李登輝先生當總統的時候修過一次,"},{"start":164.824,"end":176.616,"text":"之後就到現在後面李登輝當總統還有一段期間再來就是陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統到現在賴清德先生擔任總統中間我記得應該是30出頭年"},{"start":181.636,"end":189.585,"text":"那中間國民黨當立法院的多數也非常多屆阿事實上到第9屆第10屆這兩屆才民進黨多數捏第6屆第7屆第8屆"},{"start":197.28,"end":211.189,"text":"國民黨占多數的時間是很長喔尤其第7屆的立委啊立法院113席民進黨總共才20幾席27席其他都是國民黨的那時候占了70幾席不得了"},{"start":212.418,"end":231.19,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下那時候的在野黨就是民進黨的先制首長也在說要修財政收支劃分法那就剛剛就主計長講的因為那時候包括現在的總統當然台南市長都發現如果依照當時的分配真的拿不出錢來連要繳這個"},{"start":235.202,"end":259.739,"text":"要給年終獎金都有問題嘛所以我記得那個時候都還有預借的這個制度地方政府跟中央政府先預借錢來發年終獎金然後過了年終再用隔年的去補公式相同那為什麼那時候的財政狀況跟現在的財政狀況差這麼多就是因為發家庭的人經濟生長到底做得有好事沒好事嘛"},{"start":261.113,"end":287.307,"text":"馬英九在當總統的時候我第八屆立委的第一年國家總預算才一兆四千億一兆五千多億現在三兆一千億是多了一倍多所以當然因為收入不一樣從疫情開始之後臺灣的經濟在世界上可以說是翹楚每一年每一年都很快的速度在增加所以如果照公司來分配"},{"start":288.963,"end":314.058,"text":"現在地方政府得到的錢就像你講的一年已經盈餘六百多億了當然是全部的加總在一起包括我所在的新北市連續四年財政結算都是plus都是正數吧不僅沒有欠錢還有能力可以還錢那在這樣的狀況之下如果好好的討論權責該如何劃分收跟資應該如何劃分"},{"start":317.741,"end":343.595,"text":"當然這個事應該是可以好好來討論啊我們也願意討論啊我記得媒體的揭露院長也有跟在一黨說是不是再給我們一段時間到了明年的5月以前絕對可以提出行政院的版本結果在一黨不肯說這個會期非通過不可結果通過這個東西只有把收的部分劃走一大部分吃的部分都沒談"},{"start":345.953,"end":367.37,"text":"照現在的試算版新北市可以增加375億當然如果站在我地方政府站在地方民意代表的態度越多越好我從別的地方搶來搶越多越好像馬祖一個人可以三十幾萬最好為什麼我們新北市只有兩萬六一個人的平均數啊那為什麼差了十幾倍"},{"start":369.026,"end":392.788,"text":"這個都是水平分配上面公視要去處理要去彌平的事情嘛結果都沒有討論啊沒有機會討論啊不過站在國家總體發展的情況來看你把中央政府的財政能力拿走之後沒有辦法調劑營需啦就是強者越強台北市越來越強他越抖越多越來越好越來越有錢"},{"start":395.148,"end":419.647,"text":"但是一些財政狀況比較困苦的縣市事實上就沒有辦法有辦法來有錢來處理一些問題像我的出生地臺東像澎湖縣像中南部的這些農業縣市或是說持續建設的一些過去縱南清北產生後遺症的這些縣市"},{"start":420.868,"end":448.877,"text":"就沒有辦法去克服嘛,對不對?是,沒有錯,是,委員說的是好,那說這麼多之後再問一個問題啦他現在給你調整啦他現在給你這樣弄啦要把你撥走3700多億啦如果114年的總預算假設過這幾天或假設最好的狀況這一個會期延到1月21號以前通過或是沒有通過明年開春2月1號再任之後到了2月3月來補通過"},{"start":451.089,"end":477.26,"text":"你的困難是在要如何解決?像現在中央政府平均都要找到20幾%那每一個施政項目如何去調劑?如何去調配?這一部分主計長你有什麼意見?因為相關的一個因應措施行政院目前正在研究還是必須要等相關因應措施我知道你的相關因應措施就是復議最多就是提視線嘛"},{"start":478.513,"end":486.738,"text":"那假設這兩個最後沒有辦法通過的時候你這個預算114年的預算你要如何執行我現在是問這個問題啊最壞的狀況來講的話你要怎麼辦啊"},{"start":490.803,"end":502.552,"text":"坦白說如果說我們預算通過我們其實是照案執行但是我們如果將來是必須面對要有刪減的部分像預算的籌編其實每個計畫要討論是要發生相當的多的時間那每個部會要減哪些的計畫還是必須主一的一個討論然後就針對這個部分他哪個計畫要保留哪個計畫要刪減"},{"start":514.181,"end":535.494,"text":"然後來做討論所以這個部分也相當耗費時間了所以這個部分就是有他的一個困難度存在以上說明所以意思是說你現在都還沒有討論好你現在心裡也沒有答案啊沒有那現在這樣子這個攤子要如何解決啊其實我是蠻同意有一些學者的看法當然不是全部啦就這個案子不要附屬啊"},{"start":538.059,"end":559.578,"text":"通過一個你們自愛難行的 照理來講 這樣憲政的建議就應該多數黨要發 在國外的多數黨要發動倒閣嘛所以院長是不是不要附屬 可不可以考慮不要附屬啊我建議是不要附屬啦 如果以我對憲法的了解 不要附屬當然很有爭議"},{"start":561.135,"end":579.804,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":581.51,"end":595.06,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":595.931,"end":616.032,"text":"讓憲法的這個憲政機構之間來做這個把這個問題凸顯出來不然這個問題今年會遇到明年又可能遇到喔明年再給你提期貨法案雖然說不得維生性預算的提案可是現在都用法律案硬要把你搞死啊所以今年這樣明年那還可能再繼續搞你捏"},{"start":617.768,"end":630.542,"text":"所以希望能把我的話帶到我建議行政院不要附屬這個法案那衍生的憲政爭議由憲法機構循憲政程序解決這是我的意見麻煩你們轉達謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"158512","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158512","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e000d30dbd129119e87ba98e9ef8f04f2cd9c2d0a04e685e491c587096f49c00dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:21:50 - 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含驗收可是我要請問政府的預算人民納稅錢可以這樣花嗎全部預算一整年11個月份都不請款都不執行到12個月份的時候再大筆的沒宣費這樣去執行這樣去請款所以我要拜託主委的是我跟您報告你114年的預算是9000多萬要增加2000多萬我不希望說還有像113年這樣的執行跟運用跟請款情形可以嗎"},{"start":624.541,"end":647.827,"text":"昨天我看到他的付款,付款的期程在裡面,他的金額,英國的官員圖,官員圖都最年代。對,我們台灣有紅花季有非常多的節育啊,怎麼會到11月底的時候才花50%的錢,到12月份直接請款,把最後人民納稅錢53000多萬一次給請款一次給花掉。"},{"start":651.673,"end":668.838,"text":"我光是作業期程也不會花那麼久的時間所以我要拜託主委114年度還增加更多增加到9200多萬所以本期不希望發生113年度我照最後一個月再消化預算的情形這樣可以嗎?因為那個財務人員要儲息行財務人員要付款的儲息行當然我們不可以跟所有的律師都在那邊我看他的財務人員的情況要付款"},{"start":678.635,"end":693.044,"text":"所以每個執行平均都到12月才執行完畢嗎?所有的法庭都要均衍出來。好,謝謝主委,拜託以後不要再這樣子了,謝謝。好,謝謝張志倫委員。好,我們接下來請麥玉娟委員。"}]}},{"id":"158498","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158498","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0047f03b51262f9f783be44f6eda3de9349d0b5afa0c2001b1c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:28:55 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或者是相關的"},{"start":246.9,"end":247.641,"text":"副主任委員"},{"start":272.139,"end":295.584,"text":"我都舉例喔,我在那個過往的質詢當中財政部的金融消費平益中心都是幾百件幾百件然後每年的這樣在那個那同樣都是業者租錢這個基金會很特別喔多層次傳接保護基金政府一毛錢都沒出你看我對公平會喔真的是政府一毛錢沒出他要主導他的董事董監事"},{"start":296.994,"end":320.569,"text":"他要主導這不是很奇怪嗎所以他只在小道齁如果今天不是秘書長來齁我還真沒有我的陳情案齁我真的要感謝秘書長其實我本席就一些產業界的一些業的問題我到你這邊你其實都會幫我處理我對你是敬佩啊就是說你真的來當秘書長我實在是非常開心的我剛好改到今天你可以來到這邊我可以跟你陳情啊"},{"start":322.388,"end":330.231,"text":"這邊都是本土的業者捏那我們的公平業都是土外商捏然後這個東西還壓在我們國內的這些業者捏強制的要求他們繳錢捏400萬、300萬這樣在繳捏這個秘書長您講個話吧您覺得在你的評估當中要不要處理"},{"start":342.722,"end":343.863,"text":"不是不夠,不是不夠的問題是完全無能"},{"start":359.5,"end":359.66,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"158497","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158497","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e05b3e417d02a552d94f10c035d50fc64849d0b5afa0c2001bd4739e4e9503208b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:16:37 - 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現在請陳志民被提名人請陳志民被提名人委員早是 副主委最近我們很多的多層次媒體傳銷這個部分都被我們民眾認為是個吸金詐騙這事情越來越多所以現在我們在這個制度上面我們是行使了這個報備制"},{"start":35.512,"end":36.413,"text":"請問副主委,您的態度,您認為要改成許可制嗎?"},{"start":49.636,"end":66.95,"text":"你支持許可資嗎?我想個人制度都可以考慮了但是因為像多層次傳銷基本本質上是一個私人的商業行為之間所以原則上從一個自由經濟體的制度來講的話我們會覺得說盡可能不要過度的介入當然不是過度介入是表示都不管"},{"start":67.931,"end":70.272,"text":"徐可智徐可智"},{"start":90.1,"end":90.12,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":107.911,"end":124.163,"text":"談判有這麼多年之後一直被詐騙啊很多的媒體的廣告宣傳你們要每一篇每一篇去看嗎?用報備你有去看嗎?在報備制度底下只要報備文件進來會內一定會詳細去看啊那報備制也不是說你詳細去看?主委在我們113年到現在11月底啊我們這個有多層次傳銷有來報備的384家將近這5年時間有119家違法的案例"},{"start":137.863,"end":152.535,"text":"違法的案例你們怎麼說據我了解大部分違法的案例都是沒有來報備或是變更沒有來變更所以大部分是那個程序上他沒有去服務所以你抓到的違法的案例有報備的你才抓得到沒有報備的你抓不到嗎"},{"start":153.629,"end":155.311,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":168.609,"end":168.769,"text":"主席"},{"start":199.149,"end":214.119,"text":"審核跟管理可以嗎這一點我們在報備制的精神底下只要業者東西進來如果我們覺得不足我們都還是會要求他說明等等那另外詐騙基本上形式我們也會跟法務部、調查局你只有叫他們說明有沒有推薦的"},{"start":215.64,"end":231.534,"text":"沒有吧 報備你只是善意這樣宣傳不可以而已啊你有沒有禁止他所以現在很多像保養的食品或是保養的化妝品之類的你們都是屬於這個沒有去高度去管理"},{"start":233.066,"end":259.426,"text":"依照我們多政治專家管理辦法他們送進來的東西我們就按照那個法律的規定來做實質的審查實質的這個你說報備你有實質審查你不是報備嗎就是送進來的東西我們要去看嘛到底你報備的東西那你看了結果你的處理方式呢你怎麼管理管理就是進來的話如果符合這個東西然後符合我們的要求當然這個就算報備完成嘛那如果事後他有該報備不報備或是說報備的內容不實等等才不報備了你們加強會怎麼樣做呢"},{"start":260.253,"end":265.898,"text":"不報備又違法又詐騙呢?會處罰會比較高嗎?所以我還是建議啦我們可以採用許可制那我們可以由政府來嚴加管理那我們這個整個傳銷的這個事業用合法性跟合理性來做一個管理讓他們的整個規模不要有個模糊地帶"},{"start":288.797,"end":288.837,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"158509","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158509","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0e75107a9e7c79d377ba98e9ef8f04f2cd9c2d0a04e685e492b651861cc72ae2f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:12:10 - 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您們現在有掌握各委員會審議預算的進度嗎?"},{"start":39.326,"end":42.414,"text":"是,那我請問立法院有沒有在擋預算?"},{"start":44.738,"end":72.519,"text":"沒有嘛齁好那這個訊息要讓外界全部都知道其實過去10年以來我們大概在年度12月31號審完預算大概只有3年就是7年度101年度跟105年度完成刪讀大部分都是過完國立年後立法院才陸陸續續把預算審完但是也都沒有影響到所有整個行政院各部會去使用預算對不對"},{"start":77.485,"end":92.042,"text":"我今天要提的是二倍二倍金是我們政府中央政府的應急錢也是人民的救命錢沒有錯嘛那各部會送進來"},{"start":93.686,"end":116.613,"text":"要使用動二的部分你們到底有沒有好好的一筆一筆來審議 有 有沒有 有經過行政院還是直接交給你你全部通通買單我們審查然後簽行政院准對不起你麥克風好遠我聽得不是很清楚我們審查以後簽行政院核准"},{"start":118.109,"end":136.339,"text":"所以我觀察一下在113年度也就是今年度5000萬的動用二倍總共有11筆這兩天媒體上也有看到我的談話我相信你有看到二倍使用腐爛的程度不要說我們不給你"},{"start":138.254,"end":163.736,"text":"但是光是包括教育部拿來蓋校際研教園區還有外交部拿來辦住處的換約這個都不會是今年才知道的我為什麼請行政院副秘書長站在旁邊這些應該都不是今年才知道的為什麼會用動二包括內政部拿來辦理義難教招"},{"start":166.79,"end":168.553,"text":"這些該使用動惡嗎?主席長,你懂我意思嗎?"},{"start":174.813,"end":196.121,"text":"一般部會是這樣的他討論以後他原來的預算不夠支應所以我們預算動資二倍金他條件有什麼叫做預算不夠支應外交部拿來辦住處的換約這都不會是當下113年才知道他可能去年前年就已經知道時間到了要換約這件事情"},{"start":196.781,"end":223.097,"text":"但是他不確定性,所以他沒有辦法說那個在當年…什麼叫做不確定性?他早就應該把這個事情每個部會如果都說我不確定性所以我都要用凍二來處理,那還得了凍二當時法規上同意你用凍二的目的是什麼?你們現在凍二是全部都用凍二來去做處理那你現在包括凍二簽完了之後很多還變成流用"},{"start":224.929,"end":236.012,"text":"包括以111年度為例子申請用動二的總共有1647萬那隔年有保留到隔年使用的有99.62%包括國發會買這個檔案櫃到最後也保留主計長這種東西怎麼用動二你不覺得很離譜嗎"},{"start":256.814,"end":267.347,"text":"國發會買檔案櫃然後最後保留我看還有什麼東西還有辦公室的搬遷跟整修議政署他花了1647萬你覺得這個該使用棟二嗎?"},{"start":272.022,"end":288.897,"text":"他臨時接貨要在定期內要做一個搬遷那所以這個搬遷不是在預計的範圍裡面這個早就應該這個早就應該是用一般的預算編入吧包括醫政署他要用辦公室搬遷跟整修"},{"start":290.168,"end":307.277,"text":"他可以挪到明年或追加預算進來啊怎麼會用凍二呢他如果真的這麼急就用追加預算進來啊我們再來看怎麼處理啊怎麼用凍二你現在預備金是八山八海每一個部會想要用什麼都可以用换成是各部會另外一個小金庫啊"},{"start":316.688,"end":325.734,"text":"那各部會就不用好好編列啦。他就不用好好編列,反正不夠,到時候沒編,編得不夠精準,我全部都用送二,你通通都收啊。"},{"start":327.075,"end":352.246,"text":"所以原則上其實我們是對比較臨時有需要的第一我看到的是你沒有去追究各部會的行政責任所以對他們來說反正我沒有編到沒關係我就到最後我就索技術我用動惡來處理這就好了反正行政院會簽合同意對他來說心態就這樣子啊在我看來這一筆包括辦公一南辦公室的這個辦公室的裝修跟整修包括國發會買檔案櫃"},{"start":355.328,"end":356.872,"text":"欸 這個很離譜捏 這個也來用動惡來處理你聽到你自己不會覺得這怎麼會用動惡呢"},{"start":362.594,"end":384.229,"text":"我有沒有講錯?對,他就是說因為可能增加數量或者是說原來沒有預計到要...這跟增加數量也沒有關係那你就今年不要編明年再編進來就好明年公務預算一個檔案貴明年再編這有什麼但是用動二字就離譜了不符合動二的規範使用"},{"start":385.302,"end":395.852,"text":"那你各部會送進來動案你也沒有所謂的行政責任所以未來各部會就變成說反正編不夠沒關係我有一個小金庫可以用我就用預備金來處理就好了"},{"start":397.154,"end":421.988,"text":"東俄它的動資條件它其實是有三個啦一個就是原來計劃它有修正那第二個就是它有增加數量所以它是符合它的一個動資的原則就是數量增加導致它原來預算不夠的部分那第三個就是它有新增計劃所以它的三個原則就是等於你都沒有一個門檻你心裡都你心裡有這三個原則那我編不夠我全部不想寫我就全部都要編就好了"},{"start":433.717,"end":447.028,"text":"主席長我覺得齁動惡的使用齁我還是再次強調是政府的應急前當國家發生重大的事件需要緊急用的時候或者是人民的救命前"},{"start":448.476,"end":466.985,"text":"目前在我看來,無論是買檔案櫃,或者是辦公室的搬遷,或者是拿義男教召,或者是外交部拿來辦住外處換租,我覺得這都不是第一時間起,這早就應該各部會。"},{"start":468.146,"end":468.186,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":487.523,"end":503.619,"text":"這就更加離譜了,對不對?比如說它核定的時間就已經超過預算籌編的時間,它就來不及,所以這個部分就需要來動惡,是這樣子。在我看來你完全沒有把關嘛,所以在我看來各部位的編不夠就這樣子使用就好了,所以"},{"start":505.3,"end":525.342,"text":"我覺得這不符合我們所謂外界在觀察救命錢的使用所以會淪為各部會的小金庫所以我再一次認為我覺得主計處在這一個各部會使用動惡的把關上為了讓各部會未來精準地去編列各單位的預算"},{"start":526.343,"end":549.583,"text":"要更用心我覺得動惡的使用不應該是這樣的使用方式我再一次提醒我這樣子講應該合理啦行政院包括買什麼檔案櫃這個沒有那麼急啦外交部換約的部分早在前一兩年早就應該知道早就應該去做好因應的準備他用不到他自己在留用就好了而不是在動惡裡面在留用"},{"start":551.018,"end":571.666,"text":"一男的叫糟的辦公室更是如此所以我覺得目前的說法沒有辦法去說服外界對於動二預備金的服用濫用跟流用這個我必須要讓行政院的副秘書長知道這件事情所以動二的使用不應該淪為各部會的小金庫"},{"start":573.939,"end":599.124,"text":"這個最近我在媒體上已經有指出來我也希望主計長你在這邊動惡的部分要更嚴格的把關然後最後我要再一次問一下財劃法的部分複利民可以請回那個到目前為止我剛剛聽到幾位委員的質詢的結果大概大部分大概都聽到無論是限數法或財劃法這個部分都打算走復議對不對"},{"start":602.826,"end":618.018,"text":"這個部分那個行政院還在討論我們相關的一個因應措施看我們他整個一個討論的結果但這個部分也會跟也要經過總統的核可嘛對不對走副議那總統核可對不對賴總統核可那我再請一下副秘書長"},{"start":625.558,"end":648.888,"text":"因為程旭是復裕之後決定要復裕不管這三個法案哪一個法案要復裕哪一個法案最後要走釋憲最後都要總統的核可對不對對所以也就是說這整件事情最後也要總統同意嘛對所以從今天上午聽到現在這三個法案最後做出的結果也都是賴總統的意志"},{"start":650.049,"end":666.242,"text":"我這樣講沒有錯嗎?我們會跟他報告,同意後我們對,到最後就是賴總統的意志嘛那到底賴總統對於這三個法案最後我昨天聽到在其他委員會有聽到說路上有提到說"},{"start":667.483,"end":689.517,"text":"我從媒體上有看到說到底會不會召集院紀協調的部分後來否認沒有那到底這三個法案會不會走院紀協調?行政院跟立法院會不會走院紀協調?會不會請總統出來做院紀協調?有沒有這件事情?你不清楚還是不知道還是不敢說?你不知道?媒體上有沒有看到?"},{"start":692.215,"end":698.595,"text":"媒體上有聽聞有新聞有聽聞有聽聞所以你不知道我不知道"},{"start":702.062,"end":723.138,"text":"好,第一個我尊重了我覺得這整件事情這三個法案這三大法案每一個法案其實都是攸關人民不管是立法院在野黨的立場也好或你們的立場也好對於國家整個未來的運作跟預算執行都是洞見觀瞻我覺得大家也都在看"},{"start":723.618,"end":723.638,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"158507","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e006114f18b26ade704f10c035d50fc648d9c2d0a04e685e490f546765d3498e985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:55:49 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112年呢政交稅額實增額是1793億然後呢貸增獎金的總額是1.91那所以呢平均102家券商平均每家是187萬那請教一下"},{"start":126.013,"end":138.285,"text":"那如果發生了這個空窗期這些電腦系統的費用調整跟加班的這些人力費用誰要來處理 誰要來負責 券商還是財政部還是金管會還是國民黨跟民眾黨"},{"start":140.817,"end":165.678,"text":"其實財政部所支付的就是他代徵的一個我們委任他去做代徵嘛那所以按照那個時徵的數然後因地的比例給予而且一個最高限那自己這些費用的部分並不在於財政部要支付給他的那誰要支付這個費用那就是恐怕要券商自行負擔了券商自行負擔那券商人覺得很倒霉他巴不得說希望說趕快通過然後現在就有人力又有系統要調整"},{"start":166.579,"end":184.473,"text":"所以接下來這些成本都是由眷方自己去吸收就對了?要面臨這樣的一個問題而且這個整個會是比較複雜的是好那再請教一下齁那如果說啦齁這個在明天有完成這個三讀的話那這樣來得及嗎?"},{"start":185.868,"end":211.86,"text":"如果我們真的希望是明天真的能夠順利的完成三讀後續的行政的一個跑的流程我們財政部會盡力的一個來做有辦法在一天之內完成嗎這個可能就沒有什麼因為接下來就是元旦了嘛對就是元旦了那我們盡力來做完這個部分而且能夠希望能夠盡快是我知道啦那我就說因為接下來就是元旦了一天之內能夠完成"},{"start":213.127,"end":236.74,"text":"對然後就是說這個1月2號開始就繼續1月2號就開盤了嘛對啊那就會運用但是交割的時間是在兩天後嘛1月6號交割所以我們一定會再用盡快的時間把這個流程跑完其實很重要就是讓券商也好股民也好社會大眾可以知道說後續因為現在是處於一個不安定的狀況是啊我們真的很希望大院能夠盡快審议三讀通過是"},{"start":240,"end":262.388,"text":"我們也希望我們一直列為優先的討論事項但是在野黨沒有把這個放在前面所以說如果明天萬一順利有三讀通過的話時間上是來得及我們財政部盡力的去做努力的去因為我們希望讓這個股市的資本市場能夠是一個安定的一個狀態是那如果"},{"start":263.368,"end":286.582,"text":"明天沒有辦法順利刪讀勒?要等到這一個再隔幾天5號這個禮拜五再刪讀勒?那我想金管會已經說他做了最壞的打算最好的準備卷商都必須要做相關的一些調整那所以在這幾天交易的勒?就是一樣按照簽名之三?如果沒辦法敢在這個一定時間完成那就只有按現行的法律來可證然後等到刪讀之後?113年就"},{"start":289.624,"end":313.076,"text":"所以有可能有幾天是簽分之三然後三讀通過之後比如說禮拜五通過之後才用這個簽分之1.5會這樣子嗎我們的修正條文是它的起日在106年的4月幾號對不對然後到截止日所以目前是113年12月31號那接下來如果修法通過是到116年的12月31號"},{"start":315.037,"end":315.758,"text":"所以說如果這樣子還涉及到退稅的問題就對了"},{"start":338.476,"end":359.425,"text":"因為它是延續性的所以說如果有可能就是說幾天的教育日是千分之三但是因為如果通過之後就要退稅給這些人就對了對對對那可是就變得很複雜是不是產生一些因為整個是程式要做調整修正那涉及到的事情就很多了對"},{"start":360.506,"end":386.782,"text":"我是希望順利通過但是看這個樣子不一定能順利通過所以你們真的要做最壞的這個打算跟準備了對是的是的是我想金管會也在這方面在做跟那個證交所他們都在做這方面的準備工作是好那我請一下這個副秘書長跟主計長部長可能也要留步啦這等一下都是連貫性的謝謝那我先問一下副秘書長好了"},{"start":388.345,"end":412.081,"text":"我先問一下在這一個12月20號通過的這一個三個法案包含限速法、選罷法、財劃法行政院都收到了嗎目前只有收到一個財劃法還沒有收到目前收到什麼只有收到那個限速法只有收到限速法只有收到限速法財劃法跟這個選罷法都還沒有收到"},{"start":414.726,"end":437.422,"text":"這還蠻神奇的我不知道國民黨在做什麼打算就是說理論上這個通過12月12日通過理論上應該是他們會一起送給行政院那我不知道為什麼會先送限數法然後因為我剛剛聽你講我才知道說你們還沒有收到財劃法還沒有所以我就問一下那選爆法你們也沒收到也沒有"},{"start":438.303,"end":451.2,"text":"我不知道政協黨在想什麼不知道要他做什麼東西了不知道在想什麼東西我不知道所以現在財劃法還沒收到還沒有那如果財劃法都沒有收到的話那我們就按照舊的財劃法來做處理囉"},{"start":453.859,"end":472.399,"text":"目前是這樣子,就是說我們會在收到財劃法修正的公文以後,我們會按照憲政賦予的權利,在合法的秩序下,尋求各種救濟的程序。這我知道,這我知道。那我請教一下這個主計長好了,我在你的報告裡面有看到就是說,"},{"start":473.34,"end":495.675,"text":"基於這個錢隨事權移轉的原則要搭配事權的監套修正相關的行政作用法一波合理業務給予地方政府辦理這部分你們已經有沒有想到就是說因為我們本來一直在講說這個錢跟權要處理好那甚至地方制度法或是相關的一些法要做這個修法"},{"start":496.596,"end":506.546,"text":"有一些沒有修法的那有沒有在行政程序上面就是說因為我們少了3753億嘛那是不是就是給地方來做處理你們有沒有做好這個相關因應的準備"},{"start":507.583,"end":532.916,"text":"目前是還沒有但是等於是說各部會都必須要去檢討比如說他對縣市的一個補助的計畫是不是仍然維持他補助的比例是不是要縮減他這都必須要看整個一個檢討而且整個一個行政院的施政方針到底是要檢哪些是不是全部都通案顯28%還是說哪些不檢哪些要檢"},{"start":533.456,"end":534.177,"text":"我認為你們要趕快去做這個處理因為他這個"},{"start":553.36,"end":581.846,"text":"國民黨還就是反正就這樣推出去的還就是少了這3700的3億然後支出的話這個稅數的話大概平均會降18%那18%你說有國防、有財政、有交通都會少那你們就是要去做這個調整有些一定是超過18%那有些我們認為很重要比如說國防不能再刪了就可能會沒辦法刪但是沒有辦法刪國防那其他一定相對會減少很多嘛這是第一個"},{"start":582.626,"end":606.912,"text":"第二位就是說你們跟這個原來這個地方政府你們還有這個計劃型的補助款那有可能這個給的比率也會做調整啊因為我看到這個有台南市的立委就講有可能這個財劃法通過之後會得不償失雖然多了這個統籌分配款但是有可能計劃型的補助有可能會變零啊會是減少會不會發生這種情況就是計劃型的補助款會再做調整"},{"start":608.196,"end":631.652,"text":"調整是一定會但怎麼調整還是看部會的一個策略那第二個就是說其實像在計劃型補助是六都在偏多啊芝霞市的六都比較多啊這個部分呢所以六都的影響會比較大如果說要做調整那另外也說明一下就是說前瞻計劃裡面其實有4000多億都已經核定但是還沒有編列預算的部分"},{"start":632.352,"end":658.098,"text":"這個部分裡面軌道建設就佔2700多那這勢必也一定受到影響以上一個說明就是說齁除了這個已經從中央挖走3750之外現在齁國民黨他們還要通過這個老人福利法就這一個所得稅急峻齁未達百分之百分之二十啊齁他們現在大概有輿論壓力再修正是變成百分之五那如果這樣下去的話又是在挖中央的錢啊是"},{"start":658.769,"end":662.37,"text":"對,這個部分如果說中央增加負擔這個就是屬於法律15那這個部分那其他三減部會三減的金額又要往上提升是啊"},{"start":677.936,"end":694.807,"text":"如果齁我再提醒啊這個只是其中一個案子福利法有可能還有其他的錢跟法案就是他從中央花了錢但是呢他又多了其他的錢跟法案又讓你中央出錢那你中央的錢是從哪裡來部長要舉債嗎舉債的話我們公共債務法有在線的上線的規定不是說"},{"start":702.401,"end":706.403,"text":"其實我有跟你討論過了,如果把這個統籌分配款算進去,再加上這個我們這個前瞻預算、特別預算其實你已經沒有錢可以再去做那個舉債了啊,你已經會超過這15%的上限了啊"},{"start":724.991,"end":726.732,"text":"舉債不可行只剩下稅數的部分來做調整來做刪除了"},{"start":745.946,"end":759.211,"text":"這個是全台灣人民要去共同承擔的啦但是相關的一些作用法那些法案一些法條該做修正的你們要趕快先去做處理啦你們可能要加班做處理了這個年大概應該不是很好過了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158506","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158506","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0030ce7f5f9fa8b917ba98e9ef8f04f2cd9c2d0a04e685e49ca7091789dec401d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:48:56 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112年的時候你舉算數是5644萬那預算執行只有84.64%但是你在112年的時候你的預算就增加"},{"start":312.549,"end":323.797,"text":"下午6時至上午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午6時至下午"},{"start":334.804,"end":354.65,"text":"真的要宣傳我們客家文化嗎?還是我們變成在支柱特定的媒體的小金庫?我想這個是很多委員都會質疑的地方那也希望各位接下來在我們預算的討論上能夠好好來說明那像我們委員會來說這個具體的成效會有大概相關的成效會到哪邊"},{"start":355.51,"end":384.167,"text":"我相信內政委一定會很理性針對這部分來好好檢討那這邊也要再次的拜託我們的谷主委就是從剛剛之前的部分講到的臺東縣的資源相對是較少那我們客家族群其實是佔了不小的人數我們也希望各位能夠多多益助經費甚至活動的舉辦能夠在臺東縣讓花東地區的客家鄉親也能夠有機會來感受自己的這個文化以上謝謝主委感謝王委員"},{"start":385.673,"end":388.067,"text":"午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午10時至午"}]}},{"id":"158505","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158505","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0df9178f749bcfc8b4f10c035d50fc64849d0b5afa0c2001b2beb4618946eee9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:41:46 - 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我們可以看到以六都來說總計統籌款加補助款第一名是新北市第二名就是高雄市所以請問一下有什麼"},{"start":421.246,"end":431.354,"text":"北部吃肉南部喝湯呢?蛤?高雄市那個不是肉嗎?第二名都還不是肉那其他人是怎麼?吃雞骨頭嗎?"},{"start":432.952,"end":453.382,"text":"所以這邊一定要以正視聽事實上過去在補助款的部分我們談過很多次在補助款的部分南部的縣市事實上一直拿的蠻多的好另外看右邊我這個一定要去做一些澄清還要以正視聽剛才立法院委員離開"},{"start":455.043,"end":466.149,"text":"他剛才特別提到不只要幫台南喊冤還要幫其他南部縣市來喊冤我跟大家報告這個很清楚嘛我這個不會錯誤啦我們整個修法之後沒錯六都增加了是1719億增幅60%但是很重要的在六都之外的其他縣市政府"},{"start":483.803,"end":512.344,"text":"增加1956億．比六都增加的金額還要多．絕對數金額更多．增幅達到1.7倍．170%．所以我們這次的修法．不是只是去有利於六都而已．其他六都的其他縣市．他們才是財政狀況比較差的縣市．所以這次也照顧到了．"},{"start":513.157,"end":529.48,"text":"我跟大家可以講就是可以報告這個數字事實上你們行政院也曾經提供過以修法之後平東增加多少增加147.8億嘉義縣增加120億雲林縣增加149億如果再看彰化彰化增加181億"},{"start":541.667,"end":564.632,"text":"好,所以我要講這些縣市事實上是像雲林他連他的人事支出統籌款是都不夠的他的人事支出還要來求爺爺告奶奶的但是在這一次修法之後一半以上財源給非六都財政狀況比較差的縣市"},{"start":566.516,"end":580.741,"text":"說短城鄉差距這支財劃法很重要除了去平衡中央跟地方還有地方之間它也有很大的一個城鄉差距這很重要好來我們再看一下來第二頁我們也看再下一頁因為時間有限"},{"start":588.513,"end":604.307,"text":"我們可以看這個是一個知名財政專家的論文上面講稅收集中中央,中央集權又集錢,形成地方政府有責務權這是知名的財政專家的論文再來"},{"start":611.523,"end":639.557,"text":"來看在地方財政裡面以台南市財政最為沉重然後在後面這幾行說因為台南市財政惡化景氣低迷稅收多少但是呢在精選之後財劃法一直未真完善致補助款減少中央投手款分配比例不均等等因素特別提到幫台南市喊冤因為財劃法沒有修正再來"},{"start":642.082,"end":669.56,"text":"第二項財劃法修正之後現世自有財源可以增加實際上把原來屬於地方稅的營業稅全數歸中央而原屬省負擔的緊正支柱要移轉給現世負擔現世財政問題未獲解決反而加劇惡化這個都是在檢討財劃法為什麼都不修正中央集權造成地方財政一再的惡化"},{"start":671.161,"end":676.443,"text":"那這些都是誰說的呢?來來主計長這些都是誰說的?誰的論文啊?那我問一下這個論文是誰的啊?"},{"start":698.586,"end":708.994,"text":"這個我們就要期問要共欣賞好的著作你比很多根本都沒有論文或者論文亂抄的人好很多這就是我們主計長的論文"},{"start":711.96,"end":731.52,"text":"這就是我們現在站在台上主計長的論文所以我要講財劃法修正是長期以來各財政各領域學者產官學大家一致的呼籲為什麼到現在修了財劃法突然它變成惡法了呢還要去釋憲還要來提復義"},{"start":735.183,"end":755.684,"text":"不通嘛唯一就是換了位置換了腦袋唯一就換了位置換了腦袋所以我還是希望不管部長也好或者主計長也好能夠本於就是你們過去的一個支持跟原來你們的信仰能夠來去正視這個財劃法"},{"start":757.105,"end":772.574,"text":"另外因為時間有限我其中有一個部分就是你們說要把那個一些業務應該移撥到地方我看到行政院跟主計處的報告裡面都有提到所以這個部分是不是可以在一個禮拜之內"},{"start":773.835,"end":796.461,"text":"能夠用書面的就是你們可能要修一些法嘛對不對地方制度法等等之類然後要談到就是地方中央地方政府之間業務之間要怎麼樣去做一波或者是調整請因為這個只有一句話我實在看不懂你在寫什麼所以可以請一個禮拜之內"},{"start":798.262,"end":817.393,"text":"請這應該支出是屬於主計處的業務主計處可不可以給我們財委會一個比較詳細一點的報告因為這個涉及到相關的法定比如說老農津貼他就是農產部長我剛才有聽到你回答賴會員委員因為有一些要修法有一些可以不用修法對不對"},{"start":817.893,"end":817.993,"text":"王鴻薇委員"}]}},{"id":"158508","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158508","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e006c2fcde96cc44187ba98e9ef8f04f2cd9c2d0a04e685e49b61b70df70fb98815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:03:19 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t":71.127,"end":80.919,"text":"那審查後也通過1.5億的預算請問一下谷卓爾這筆預算會不會升變?那中央政府已經有下令要重編預算了嗎?要不然為什麼谷卓爾說會減少30%的預算?那如果沒有重編的問題那為什麼要對媒體說這筆預算無法補助了?"},{"start":89.028,"end":90.09,"text":"請國際回答我請委員報告要找辦法改善駕駛省號增設為影響度的民意及普遍,用這樣退估的發為影響度28%"},{"start":105.69,"end":131.753,"text":"主委,這個行政院有跟你們說要重編了嗎?目前還忙,也要先這樣整理。我告訴你喔,剛剛主席長陳淑芝已經在內政委員會有對媒體講沒有要重編預算的計畫,沒有。所以為什麼您在還沒有,中央都還沒有告訴您,行政院都還沒有告訴您,您就在地方上散播這樣的言論呢?那是主委您自己的意見,還是是行政院給你的?"},{"start":132.113,"end":132.793,"text":"我想你可能知道"},{"start":149.183,"end":158.768,"text":"雖然說您是今年才上任可是您應該很清楚光過去3年我們的這個超徵的這個稅收就已經超過1兆3400億光今年我們講今年預估會超徵就5100億"},{"start":165.231,"end":179.717,"text":"所以拿來用這個財政稅務法通過之後的會增加的3753億回歸給地方其實這個金額就綽綽有餘根本不會影響到你中央的總預算那為什麼您當時就在地方上就講這樣的言論造成"},{"start":180.137,"end":180.657,"text":"客家鄉親的一個恐慌嗎?"},{"start":196.022,"end":213.746,"text":"請建議都還沒有跟您說要減少30%你就對外不管是到苗栗到台中到處去告訴我們的客家鄉親其實我覺得這種不當的言論我是覺得主委應該已經造成這個我們客家鄉親的恐慌我想我們很多的這個委員都有接到我們這些客家這個鄉親的這個電話說為什麼現在要三減預算為什麼"},{"start":218.747,"end":242.518,"text":"現在不補助地方接下來幾年都不能照顧地方我覺得已經造成我們客家鄉親的恐慌所以谷主委你要不要為這件事情你的不當言論跟我們所有的客家鄉親道歉然後在跟議員報告啦齁那架式真的要這樣通過三千人醫對於整個普遍來說真實作為影響百分之二十八百分之二十八天我們合理費的醫生地盤會用的齁谷主委剛剛主席長已經講了"},{"start":244.378,"end":253.202,"text":"今年的預算不會從編,所以絕對也不會去影響到客委會的預算。所以您是不是該為這件事情不當言論,對我們客家鄉親道歉呢?希望以後還沒有定案的話,也希望谷主委在地方上不要去講這樣的言論好嗎?"},{"start":270.33,"end":292.522,"text":"立法院都預金。那以後就不用行政院啦,因為其實委員會就可以做決定,然後就不用行政院的要求,所以我覺得以後行政院還沒有通過還是希望國主委到地方上不要這樣子的不斷的聯論來引起客家鄉親的恐慌。接下來我還要問您下一題,就是我們客委會今年編列的預算,月進主流計畫有3億3844萬2千元,"},{"start":296.724,"end":299.425,"text":"比較113年度的預算數9025萬元增加1億1475萬6千增加的幅度高達127%那我們有查過111年度這個獎補助費的執行率才16.67113年到8月底執行率也不過33.2%光執行率這麼低"},{"start":320.194,"end":339.849,"text":"光今年的預算都花不完,為什麼客委會還要在114年度還編列多增加了1億多,增幅高達百分之127的預算。執行率這麼低要怎麼推廣客家的這個語言跟文化?我跟委員報告,委員也要舒適齁,現在都半夜,都目前日子,我們這行列已經超過九三了。"},{"start":341.176,"end":364.211,"text":"你現在已經超過九成了但是你明年度你看光到現在執行9025萬到現在你說好到九成了那明年你還要增加1億1476萬所以針對這個部分請谷主委一定要去徹底的檢討執行率其實是相對偏低未來要怎麼推廣客家語言跟文化再麻煩谷主委能夠好好來檢討這個部分"},{"start":367.345,"end":393.267,"text":"另外就是我們在114年度的議文傳播推轉的預算編列了16億1286萬7千其中作為媒體政策跟業務宣導的是9204萬5千那我查了一下客委會主委可以看一下這個部分過去從109年到113年的三季我們可以看到民視得標了12次八大五次三立一次年代四次"},{"start":393.767,"end":419.563,"text":"其中一個貝利德股份生公司更是高達1億4688萬我們可以看到就是特定的媒體好像都能夠標到我們客委會的這個標案那也會讓社會造成國家好像在養媒體的一個印象請問一下主委針對114年度這個部分客委會在執行年度的預算的時候是不是能夠改善"},{"start":421.343,"end":427.246,"text":"議員報告,我們的議案一定都會公開招標。是限制性招標嗎?但是有限制性招標嗎?對不對?"},{"start":437.794,"end":439.135,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":455.781,"end":464.753,"text":"114年度的標案一定要立即檢討不要讓大家覺得說所有媒體好像只有少數的媒體能夠標到客委會的預算應該是要讓所有的媒體有公開競爭的一個機會那我想政府在"},{"start":470.921,"end":499.032,"text":"補助跟標案的分配時也可以應該要考慮到如何促進媒體多元性才能夠提升多元媒體的生產好嗎?但是呢我們從目前看到確實有這樣的一個狀況那我們還是覺得你們應該在真正在做這樣的標案的時候應該要去注意到一個媒體多元性的狀況比如說現在看到很多都是民事的很多都是背利的那背利的公司到底是什麼樣子的一個來頭他幾乎都"},{"start":499.352,"end":510.239,"text":"下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時"}]}},{"id":"158501","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158501","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e09624667d254764c94f10c035d50fc64849d0b5afa0c2001b20cac61ede387e4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:30:08 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﹝顏寬恒："},{"start":243.348,"end":271.491,"text":"反而是各部會首長都跳出來說會衝擊到補助、津貼甚至加薪這些毫無根據的引發民眾的不安這是令人遺憾這種虛假不實的言論無助於政策的推動反倒是分裂國家動搖民心的這樣的行為財劃法的修訂完全不會排擠到國防補助之類的預算我們以去年的財政收支來看"},{"start":275.809,"end":282.934,"text":"據名預算結餘有607億債務收支餘額約15301530億營業相關營收約608億作業資金收入684億債務基金相關約390億這樣112年度總預算餘額為3819億是將總預算餘額完全分配給地方"},{"start":304.961,"end":322.954,"text":"根本不會排擠到本來就應該要編列的既有預算所以拜託各位部會所長不要再散播這些假訊息部長你身為財政專家你贊不贊同這些散布假消息的這些說法你可不可以告訴我"},{"start":323.83,"end":340.027,"text":"跟委員報告我想在今天的我們的行政院也好主計總處也好財政部的報告裡面都非常說清楚的說明114年度的總預算行政院已經籌編並且在大院審議當中我們希望能夠進促審議往前然後114年能夠按照我們的施政計畫"},{"start":344.271,"end":347.895,"text":"對於這次財劃法的修正因為他沒有討論到事權的一個劃分就是從中央部分隨時分配的部分就從中央"},{"start":364.311,"end":384.62,"text":"增加劃出一定的一個比例的稅款大概以114年的稅款來計算的話是到3753億那這個部分會的後續的一些影響因為等於是說重新增加出來要劃拨到中央統籌分配稅款裡面對於中央施政的一些相關的影響那個主計總處也請各部會在做一個盤整所以也已經都盤整出來"},{"start":389.002,"end":389.642,"text":"主席我想邀請主計總處陳主計長部長請回"},{"start":415.416,"end":429.555,"text":"主席長,這個修法會讓地方政府爭取到更多的資源也會實現更公平的一個財政分配並且釋出中央超徵稅收還有財政剩餘"},{"start":431.257,"end":460.517,"text":"那地方能夠更專注的一個改善基層民生與推動基礎建設的部分那我想認為說這個財劃法的修訂不僅僅是賦予地方更多的財源也是賦予地方更大的一個發展自主性才能真正推動基礎建設提升整體執行效率減少計畫延宕進一步的回應民眾的需求我就舉我自己台中市的一個"},{"start":463.86,"end":469.647,"text":"舉例,我們臺中市烏日大慶的鐵路高架,鐵路高架計畫延宕了十幾年"},{"start":474.181,"end":491.295,"text":"這個也展現了目前地方建設推動中央存在的挑戰還有一個需要改善之處113年2月23日提報可行性修正報告給交通部交通部在3月29號呈報行政院續行審議國發會6月19號含送審查意見給交通部"},{"start":498.44,"end":515.786,"text":"鐵道局6月27日還請臺中市政府回應及修正報告書臺中市政府目前正依國發會的審查意見修正報告書中這個全場只有3.7公里的高架計畫總經費83億中央負擔36億地方政府必須要超過46億的一個承擔"},{"start":523.169,"end":547.944,"text":"對於地方的財政就是壓力非常的巨大從這個問題可以看出來這個修訂財劃法是解決地方財政困難光是中央用公文往返卡台中卡了多少案子我甚至於敢假設說這是中央根本就是不想編列這樣的預算那尤其我們看8800億的前瞻預算台中市的軌道"},{"start":549.401,"end":561.731,"text":"並列軌道的一個補助幾乎是零台中市第二大城市零那這樣子就可以知道說中央補助不只是大小園對於地方政府"},{"start":563.081,"end":581.456,"text":"還是按照公裁顏色對就對了顏色錯就一毛都不給你所以中正的態度很明顯不管我們每一次在總質詢的時候要求行政院長快一點快一點但是行政院長他們就是行政院能拖就拖苦的都是地方政府"},{"start":582.156,"end":600.258,"text":"所以我想再舉一個例子就南山節水溝台中市的防洪重要的非常重要的一個防洪工程第三期的工程要新闢上游長度2.9公里的部分經費約65億光是土地徵收還有第三戶補償就要接近30億了"},{"start":601.559,"end":627.791,"text":"中央目前回復我們辦公室的就是說這個經費龐大無法一次到位所以沒有辦法那麼快編定這個就是雪林林活生生的中央在卡地方建設尤其這是一個攸關人民生命財產安全的一個防洪設施防洪建設我要告訴主計長還有部長不要從臺北看天下財務法的修訂真的可以幫助很多縣市的發展"},{"start":628.911,"end":652.782,"text":"我剛剛提到了前瞻八千八百億軌道建設全國各縣市都得到補助人口第二的台中市補助款竟然是零零啊沒有啦所以一再的顯示中央的統籌分配款是大小顏而且透過這一次的財劃法修正才是長治久安的辦法可以讓地方得到更公平的一個對待"},{"start":653.889,"end":668.938,"text":"跟委員報告台中捷運南線預算在114年中要編列5億元那113年年度也編列2億元所以它並不是零它是有補助的所以它是整個一個捷運南線都有補助"},{"start":669.138,"end":670.499,"text":"陳主計長,謝謝。我時間已經到了。我時間已經到了。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"16432","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16432","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd4f168390ff16a0106ddb8aeea0ab2b9a22ed645e3f9bcfe609d031dbd65f70ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算。\n二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算。\n三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算。\n四、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算。\n【113年12月30日及114年1月2日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-30T08:31:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-30T12:23:00+08:00","duration":13887,"影片長度":"03:51:27","委員發言時間":"08:31:33 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預算。決議第一案至第四案均審查完並內容如審查結果。"},{"start":2594.318,"end":2622.986,"text":"審查結果一、交通部主管港港建設基金一一、審查結果隨同調整二、基金來源用途及餘處一、基金來源改列為96億3300億38000元二、基金用途改列為107億8828萬9000元三、本期短處改列為11億5515萬1000元三及四均照列五、通過決議二十項二、交通部主管台灣港務股份有限公司和台灣港務"},{"start":2624.042,"end":2634.608,"text":"港勤股份有限公司、高雄港區土地開發股份有限公司一、因應審查結果、隨同調整二、營業收支一、營業總收入改列為255億3911萬1000元二、"},{"start":2639.75,"end":2643.951,"text":"營業總支出不含所得稅費用改列為161億4404萬元3歲前淨利改列為93億9507萬1000元3、隨同審查結果調整4、五列數5、重大資建設事業改列為108億1669萬3000元6"},{"start":2657.495,"end":2672.246,"text":"因依審查結果隨同調整7均兆列8通過決議23項三、交通部主管國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司因依審查結果隨同調整二、營業收支一營業總收入改列為362億3564萬6千元二、營業總支出不含所得稅費用改列為448億4234萬6千元三、稅前競選改列為86億0670萬元三、"},{"start":2686.898,"end":2711.335,"text":"隨同審查結果調整四無列數五照列六因依審查結果隨同調整七均照列八通過決議三三項四台鐵局撥入資產及債務管理基金分預算一因依審查結果隨同調整二頁五收支均照列三至六均無列數七通過決議三項。散會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2714.019,"end":2743.143,"text":"好謝謝因為今天要宣讀上週三天的一個會議的議事錄請問各位委員對於剛剛宣讀的議事錄有沒有意見沒有好沒有意見我們議事錄確定現在我們先介紹現場的委員我們從後方介紹來李坤澤委員好謝謝徐富奎委員蔡其昌委員陳樹葉召委林俊憲委員"},{"start":2745.093,"end":2769.048,"text":"陳雪生委員秋若華委員黃建豪委員謝謝各位委員那我們也介紹在場的列席人員因為今天審預算是一個單位一個單位來所以我們先介紹我們運安會運安會主任委員林信德主委好謝謝林主委葉明山副主委好陳天賜委員"},{"start":2774.005,"end":2797.865,"text":"那個運安會給自己的掌聲一下好不好好不好站起來好像罰站的樣子怪怪的齁張文桓委員李延能委員李延年委員齁抱歉姚承安組密姚組密林佩達執行長以及我們航空調查組劉東銘組長"},{"start":2801.693,"end":2829.06,"text":"水路調查組蘇水兆組長、鐵道調查組吳吉春組長、公路調查組曾仁松組長、運輸安全組鄭永安組長、運輸工程組莊禮章組長、以及人事室廖娟蕙主任"},{"start":2831.211,"end":2852.467,"text":"鄭豐是康熙平主任主計是孫淑信主任秘書是楊一文主任以及我們行政院主計總處公共預算處王淺凱專委以及我們基金預算處李政道科長"},{"start":2856.601,"end":2867.774,"text":"我們現在就進行討論事項114年度運安會、交通部運援所、鐵道局及所屬還有鐵道發展基金的預算處理"},{"start":2873.1,"end":2890.249,"text":"好,現在我們進行協商同時請議事人員宣讀預算書及委員提案今天協商的順序是一、運安會二、交通部運燃所三、鐵道局及所屬四、鐵道發展基金我們現在進行協商"},{"start":2930.888,"end":2956.92,"text":"中央民國114年度中央政府總預算案國家運輸安全調查委員會稅路來源別預算書第二款發款及賠償收入第二項國家運輸安全調查委員會好請各位翻開國家運輸安全調查委員會114年年度單位預算建議併案及預算表首先我們按照這個順序來審議第一案"},{"start":2959.938,"end":2968.087,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委員會第11屆第2會期交通部運輸安全調查委"},{"start":2969.453,"end":2986.487,"text":"謝謝主席本席針對國家運輸安全調查委員會在114年度預算案在運輸事故調查、運輸系統安全分析與工程鑑定及經濟運輸事故調查能量分別編列了1505萬還有323萬及3628萬4千元主要是要辦理運輸事故的調查"},{"start":2993.212,"end":3007.105,"text":"事實發布調查報告等的所需經費本席是針對經濟運輸事故調查能量是非常的關心跟重視因為我們看到國家運輸安全調查委員會在"},{"start":3010.667,"end":3032.379,"text":"2019年8月成立到今年的7月為止我們看到各類事故的這個調查案件總計有304件那其中198件曾經展期那展期的比例高達65.13%那其中是以水路事故的案件數及展期件數最多所以我們在這邊要關心的就是說"},{"start":3033.119,"end":3060.051,"text":"這個展期的原因是什麼是因為人力的不足還是技術的問題那跟我們這個新的一年就114年針對這個經濟運輸事故調查能量你們要有如何的一個作為所以就是本期針對這一項預算就是提凍結案預算10%然後建起運安會說明各類型展期的原因分析同時就是針對說我們提出了這個"},{"start":3061.472,"end":3077.606,"text":"事故調查報告之後的運輸安全改善的建議事項相關機關要提出具體的分析分項執行計畫我們也看到有關解除列管的還有列管的件數列管數還有132件也達"},{"start":3080.709,"end":3081.811,"text":" bicyclop.com﹚"},{"start":3096.271,"end":3098.473,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":3127.096,"end":3128.298,"text":"第一案當然是運安會的114年度的預算。"},{"start":3144.959,"end":3173.601,"text":"運輸事故調查運輸系統安全分析與工程鑑定另外是經濟運輸事故的調查能量當然我們運安會成立的宗旨就是針對重大的運輸事故他的調查處理以及噪音的鑑定跟分析而且提出調查報告以及運輸的安全改善建議那"},{"start":3174.942,"end":3197.839,"text":"我記得林信德主委以前擔任過臺北航空站的主任對不對也擔任過民航局的副局長我請教一下因為我們看到韓國濟州航空在霧安機場發生重大的空難這個大家都同感悲痛"},{"start":3199.06,"end":3222.31,"text":"當然對於相關的事故原因我們都要尊重韓國方面的他們的調查我們也不便多做相關的評論以避免干擾人家的這個調查韓國方面的調查不過有幾個面向我倒是針對今天的預算可以來請教主委就是說"},{"start":3224.624,"end":3240.77,"text":"韓國的烏安機場它的跑道是2800公尺是比較短的跑道那像仁川機場是3750公尺那我們的松山機場更短烏安機場是2800公尺我記得松山機場是2600公尺對不對來主委我們的跑道更短"},{"start":3250.458,"end":3269.149,"text":"那其實我記得在2004年復興航空曾經在降落的時候差點衝出跑道只差15公尺左右就會衝出跑道會造成重大的空難只差15公尺"},{"start":3270.029,"end":3283.934,"text":"所以在2005年的時候我們當時的非安會有提出具體的改善建議就是要裝設EMAS就是工程攔阻系統稱為攔阻床"},{"start":3288.456,"end":3291.059,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查"},{"start":3312.845,"end":3326.415,"text":"那這個相關的松山機場這個安全2600公尺以及相關的這個EMAS的系統好像EMAS系統好像每兩年就要檢測一次嘛來你簡單說明一下"},{"start":3328.096,"end":3351.708,"text":"報告委員,那個復興航空在93年沒有錯,當時是有衝刺跑道撞到水溝裡面去。那後來民航局就,就是台北航空有編了預算。編預算它在,我印象中它是在98年的時候,那個EMAS就完工了。那EMAS的功能就如同剛剛委員講的,它在那個波音727那個飛機,"},{"start":3353.609,"end":3355.03,"text":"一般對都會機場裡面,都會機場裡面對那種跑道安全區不足的部分"},{"start":3376.767,"end":3394.901,"text":"他們都是,全世界各地都是用IMAS在做補足啦,所以說那幾場後來有裝好之後,他們就比較放心,所以他開放的機型就比較好像有容許值,以前是就是比較大型的飛機他不敢開放。"},{"start":3395.521,"end":3400.043,"text":"現在就是我們的松山機場是只有2600公尺其實看我們高雄機場還有3100那台南機場也有3600桃園機場也有3600"},{"start":3422.572,"end":3430.744,"text":"那這個部分我們針對嵩山機場相關的安全那 運安會有提出什麼更具體的改善措施嗎?"},{"start":3432.706,"end":3452.528,"text":"我們可以建議民航局根據機車航空這個案子可以做案例研究因為我們會有檔案MTSB美國那邊我們會跟他一起合作看看能不能繼續把國內其他類似這種有可能發生的弄機場做相關研究"},{"start":3453.369,"end":3480.438,"text":"你也擔任過民航局的副局長我記得華航737800型大概有10架左右這一次也有起落架易壓降落的這個失效的這種狀況我們面對這種狀況我記得華航好像每24個月他們要測試一次就是如果易壓降落失效的話他們會用重力來"},{"start":3483.18,"end":3504.838,"text":"來釋放這個起落價是不是有這種測試?詳細的情形我不知道但是這一次的這個機制航空它那個自動的那個起落價的部分它是失效的事實上在駕駛艙的地板它有一個鎖洞的"},{"start":3505.776,"end":3506.376,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、"},{"start":3531.804,"end":3556.753,"text":"報告委員,像剛才委員所提到有關於這個EMAS的這個部分那其實這是美國的民航局就是FA聯邦航空總署這邊針對這個都會型機場他要去改善這個都會型機場裡面有關於這個機場的跑道的一個安全區裡面的不足所以他去設立了這個替代的方案這個替代方案呢"},{"start":3557.153,"end":3559.816,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":3574.269,"end":3602.336,"text":"美國聯邦航空總署才剛提出來這樣的一個建議所以我們在那時候就希望說因為發生了G236這個案子因為運安會是在做運輸事故調查預防類似事故在發生所以在預防的功能上面我們就會針對這些比較危險的一個部分提出建議包括機場的圍牆當時也是我們當時也建議了民航局這邊把它改成易碎材質的圍牆"},{"start":3604.076,"end":3623.968,"text":"此次的霧安機場也是因為撞到這個鋼筋混凝土的這個圍牆才會產生這麼大的一個傷害。另外剛剛委員有提到說有關於起落價這個部分那其實我們會去建議說這個在航空公司的這個日常的維護裡面"},{"start":3625.009,"end":3625.65,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":3641.604,"end":3670.115,"text":"那個所長齁,你幫我追一件事情,南開機場那個,南開機場跑道很短嘛齁,因為又有車封嘛,那個我本來裝那個一馬四有沒有,民產局也答應我了,我這是誰預算啊,因為腦袋現在不靈光齁,忘了,忘了問這一段,你幫我追一下好不好,你不要回答我這一段,你幫我追一下好不好,你跟那個何局長,你追一下,你說陳學生委員在問這個事情好不好,其他沒事啦,謝謝"},{"start":3671.556,"end":3696.455,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員事實上確實大家因為昨天在韓國發生了空難大家也蠻擔心的因為我們的期待都一樣因為運安會一出面我們不需要你出面出面都是大概發生了什麼不太好的事情但是很多經驗的累積變成事前的預防我相信是幾位委員大家都很希望期待那這樣好不好我們還是回到我們預算的科目"},{"start":3697.256,"end":3701.059,"text":"那針對於第一案稅出的通案運輸事故調查運輸系統安全分析與工程鑑定以及精進運輸事故調查的能量"},{"start":3717.709,"end":3736.987,"text":"這個部分我們預算凍結10%,請院會提供書面報告,使得動之。各位有沒有不同意見?好,那第一案就這樣處理。接下來第二案。第二案是稅徒通案業務費教育訓練費用。提案委員林國成委員。"},{"start":3740.911,"end":3750.019,"text":"好謝謝主席因為經過溝通就不算了那建議建議還是要凍結還是要凍結百分之十交書面報告"},{"start":3756.26,"end":3779.893,"text":"好那這個就不用說明了那希望你們教育訓練各方面做好一點那這個部分就針對於稅出的第二案稅出通覽業務費教育訓練費這個的部分凍結10%請運安會提供書面報告來說明一下教育訓練的哪些科目跟預計的成果使得動之好是我會抓到辦理好"},{"start":3781.734,"end":3804.699,"text":"這樣處理各位有沒有其他意見?沒有我們接下來處理第三到七案稅出通案派員出國計畫那這個的部分由幾位委員好林國成委員好我本期提的是第六案那我原本是想說三一點預算因為這個出國"},{"start":3805.839,"end":3831.385,"text":"但是因為考量他這個技術人員要參加一些國外的這些國際的這些等等的交流跟經驗的取得所以我還是建議就改為凍結10%然後交出沒辦法好謝謝林委員那針對這個我提的是第三案一樣是國外的旅費的部分"},{"start":3832.265,"end":3843.652,"text":"我目前提的是剪裂10%、凍結10%。主要的原因當然跟去年比113跟114年比只增加了48萬但是我們從111年4年相比的話你們這個國外出國的旅費增加了將近四成38.67算是還不少"},{"start":3855.92,"end":3874.09,"text":"不過我們在看確實剛剛跟林國成委員說的一樣因為有一些必須要去做交流的這個部分我們是沒有意見而且會鼓勵可是我們看到從111年開始可能也沒有人仔細去看你們細部的部分你們在預算上列的地點"},{"start":3874.81,"end":3890.342,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查十五、繼續審查九、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查九、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、"},{"start":3903.933,"end":3904.153,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":3921.262,"end":3936.332,"text":"這個我報告一下,因為112年、112年因為新冠疫情的關係,很多訓練、開會什麼的他有在變,所以這個沒辦法,但是近幾年就一直比較符合時情,這確實是有困難,這越來越好,所以請委員同意我們還是別勉強。"},{"start":3942.276,"end":3965.891,"text":"好,謝謝說明。那還有委員發表意見嗎?呃,林俊俊委員不在。那這樣好不好,這個部分我們就減劣10%,那不予凍結,因為這個也沒什麼好說明的。好不好,減劣10%嘛,10%不多啦。是不是,不好意思啊,是不是就凍結10%啦,不要減劣啊,我們提出面報告啦。凍結10%提出面報告。"},{"start":3970.674,"end":3970.814,"text":"禮貢總委員檢列200萬,檢列20%"},{"start":3978.809,"end":4004.1,"text":"我原來是檢列啦那他們說明以後那我們也認為這個國際的交流國際的考察是有必要所以我也就沒有要刪的意思啦那當然因為主席這些要檢列的部分因為900多萬也沒有多少錢啊因為檢列90幾萬而已啊所以這敢不可以不好意思因為我們這個"},{"start":4005.08,"end":4006.061,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、"},{"start":4034.434,"end":4040.835,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":4060.956,"end":4080.522,"text":"我們是在唯一政府組織出國外開會中由臺灣的名字。我們在國際能電部越來越高。讓我們每一年都固定向國際運輸安全首長聯會向運輸事務的調查的論壇等等。都是我們曝光的機會。所以對我們來講對國家來講真的很重要。"},{"start":4082.543,"end":4104.848,"text":"好,那這樣好不好?那這樣剛剛那個幾位委員大概有給我眼神,我知道齁。那個,那我們就凍結10%。不過你要講清楚,我現在今天講的事情,如果我們現在,你現在包括你的細則列這麼多國家這麼多預算,如果到了今年年底我們再去檢討,又一大堆變更,這個部分抱歉了,明年這樣就不行了,好不好?好,那針對於"},{"start":4109.178,"end":4137.498,"text":"第三到七案,如果各位委員沒有其他的意見,稅都通案派員出國計劃的部分,我們凍結10%,提供書面報告,使得動之。謝謝,謝謝。好,沒有意見的話,我們接續處理八到十一案。八到十一案,林國正委員。其實還是來主委自己講啦,小三啦,其他就不要凍結啦,好不好。"},{"start":4138.319,"end":4138.94,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":4156.115,"end":4172.348,"text":"啊 主委 你不能這樣給半瓶喔 我們已經經過你們解釋 我們也認同 對不對 我本來要三個喔 我本來 你看我的資料 我本來要三個喔兩百好不好 一億多兩百欸一億八千多萬喔 一億八千多喔"},{"start":4181.633,"end":4207.332,"text":"你們自行去調整科目來李分審委員謝謝我們這個8到11案都是一般的行政當然這些都是基本行政工作的維持業務會、水電會基本行政工作的維持、設備及投資請主委說明一下能接受的範圍是多少來"},{"start":4209.778,"end":4233.496,"text":"因為像人事會一般是不能審那像我們很多會議室的那個的廣播室那個麥克風室的那個也要徵然後我們我們很多的精密的儀器進來因為它不是不像密閉它是比較大型的它要用除濕機要什麼一直要要一直在run它像這種這種電話是也不能審但是"},{"start":4237.56,"end":4238.34,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":4260.862,"end":4281.342,"text":"對啊對啊主委我講一下啦齁你們這樣審預算齁讓其實你看齁每一黨的委員齁都很理性啦所以大家才會問你說齁你覺得什麼合理的範圍內你哪一個科目是可刪哪一個科目是可動起來或是都不可以動的啊大家都在等啊你這樣回答齁"},{"start":4282.935,"end":4283.555,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":4296.397,"end":4320.701,"text":"阿可以的,你們覺得這個實在是委員講的有道理你做不到,或者是你編了稍微這個多了一點,讓委員有一個監督的這種方向跟力量,這個都很合理。阿這樣才有辦法做啦,不然這個我聽你講話也不知道到底是要抬多多還是要跟你動這個。報告委員,那個我們主席這邊剛剛有說一下可以塞100萬啦,我們自己來調整啦。我要坦白講啦齁。"},{"start":4326.57,"end":4347.786,"text":"我們副院長都這樣講你們再這樣審下去我要恢復原來我的堅持一億多、三兩百萬這是對你們尊重的你可以看前幾個在審預算你們去看一看三了以後還要再你們這裡面有買電腦買什麼我們售錢你自行調整了兩百萬欸一億多欸"},{"start":4356.909,"end":4384.334,"text":"哎呀,你若要這樣,我先告訴你我來決定一下啦我連講都沒有講,就是說不想耽誤大家的時間啦,好不好那針對於這個,所以我們就刪除3.2百萬啦,好不好3.2百萬啦,也不用凍結啦,也不用說明啦來,針對於8到11案,說出第一幕一般行政的部分啦"},{"start":4385.415,"end":4388.221,"text":"我們這個處理方式3減200萬元"},{"start":4399.147,"end":4416.036,"text":"第12案到第26案有委員要補充說明嗎?來林俊憲委員感謝主席各位同仁本期第17案是明年度我們運安會的運輸事故調查的經費編列1505萬比今年增加了16.5%"},{"start":4420.999,"end":4446.564,"text":"當然主要是辦理飛航、水路、鐵、公路、鐵道事故的各項調查業務。我們運輸安排從成立以來我發現到今年11月底列管的案件有112件。運輸安排它成立幾年?五年嘛。成立五年。列管的案件有112件。"},{"start":4450.041,"end":4478.223,"text":"一面航空有5件水路有54件鐵道有37件公路16件有的列管案件有一到兩年一到兩年有28件列管兩年以上到三年有19件列管三年以上有17件為什麼會有這麼多列管案件等於就是說你是沒有辦法解決還是調查不出來"},{"start":4480.345,"end":4492.715,"text":"現在這個部分我希望議員會能夠來督促,主委這邊你看這些列管案件到底什麼原因,應該提一個說明報告,本期建議凍結四分之一,說明報告後再動輒,好謝謝。"},{"start":4495.177,"end":4498.139,"text":"林委員、黃建豪委員、張海誠、李昆德委員"},{"start":4510.23,"end":4531.032,"text":"閱讀議論"},{"start":4531.152,"end":4531.312,"text":"二、繼續審查"},{"start":4553.619,"end":4554.94,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":4574.434,"end":4580.497,"text":"李昆哲委員非安事故調查業務預算編列420萬我看我們運安會的網站統計有關非安事故的運輸安全改善建議"},{"start":4593.061,"end":4610.17,"text":"目前還有五件是在列管中還沒有結案這個請主委等一下說明那另外有518案他是非本國政府機關那是要由其他的相關主管機關去督導這個也說明一下"},{"start":4612.651,"end":4636.282,"text":"第二個23案就是水路事故的調查業務預算也是240萬不多但是運安會的網站去統計我們有關水路事故的運輸安全改善建議目前有13件在等待回復或者是處理當中有55件列管中還沒有結案"},{"start":4637.639,"end":4652.637,"text":"有88件非本國政府機關是由他們相關的主管機關督導那這個部分我要請教主委我們等會兒回覆或者是處理以及上會結案的部分應該要跟相關機關加強溝通"},{"start":4655.92,"end":4670.744,"text":"另外有關非本國政府機關尤其相關主管機關督導這些案件也應該要建立追蹤的機制來確保改善的意見能夠有效的落實。等一下請主委說明一下。"},{"start":4676.634,"end":4692.484,"text":"謝謝主席我提出第15案那有鑑於運安會這個調查案都超過這個立案的預定期程展期的情況非常嚴重那尤其從108年8月到今年的7月份各類的調查事故304件裡面"},{"start":4693.985,"end":4723.985,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4724.125,"end":4730.49,"text":"好,請林國成委員本期提議第19案、21案、24案那基本上我本來是專案報告現在都改為書面報告然後我建議這三案都凍結百分之十好,我個人有提案啦但是剛剛委員大概問題都同樣說過了那應該會做個說明"},{"start":4751.445,"end":4773.704,"text":"好,主席各位,那個列管的案子齁,譬如說水路方面,水路方面列管,那航港局他們為了飲水人的制度的管理,進出口管理,整個他們整個系統面他們成立一個專案,這個需要時間,我們也去參加他們這個研討會相關,我們也告訴他怎麼方向怎麼做,齁,那"},{"start":4775.345,"end":4791.351,"text":"例如說航空方面,你像高雄機場的那個跑道的這個整平區,它也要需要多預算啊。那台中機場又涉及國防部的,它也列管的時間會比較長。這個也不在我們控管之內。"},{"start":4792.651,"end":4811.745,"text":"而且列管要解除列管也必須要報行政,行政認為它是可行之後才會解除列管。至於展取例,我們110年之前運安會是從118年改制過來。改制的初期我們是沒有籌備起,直接就從非安會是在轉到運安會的人力。"},{"start":4812.525,"end":4827.33,"text":"一方面要競爭力,一方面要訓練,法律規章也要定,所以那個時候案件很多,尤其是水路的案特別多。為什麼呢?當時漁船的事件非常多,一直到110年之後,邱改規有說300噸"},{"start":4830.293,"end":4831.314,"text":" bicyclery"},{"start":4860.613,"end":4860.893,"text":"第三報告"},{"start":4885.543,"end":4886.023,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":4905.049,"end":4922.635,"text":"五百零五萬那比去年的一二九一增加兩百一四萬那你是錢不夠嗎還是因為這種調查是有點機會這個事件可能調查但因為你看到你今年的預算到目前為止只用到六十六趴大概三分之二那就剩"},{"start":4923.695,"end":4923.935,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":4942.822,"end":4944.042,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":4966.323,"end":4993.371,"text":"十二到二十六案第二幕運輸事故調查凍結百分之二十也請提出書面報告到底這個經費啊你們怎麼樣預估的然後大概需求如何為什麼要增加百分之十六的預算請一併說明之後使得動之是謝謝好 各位 曾政主席啊好 那各位沒有意見來我們繼續"},{"start":4995.65,"end":5016.611,"text":"處理第二十軀到二十九案第二十軀到二十九案講課、終點、稿費、初期審查及查詢費、凍結二十趴、提案人許富奎等。好,之後,油化委員、何精準委員,您來現場。專業服務費、委託調查研究費、凍結二十趴、提案人許富奎等。"},{"start":5017.572,"end":5035.225,"text":"其實我在提這個案子是說28案是我提的運輸系統安全分析工程鑑定這個的部分最主要我們現在事實上是新能源自駕以及不同型態的載具越來越多了但是對於我國的道路的設計號誌的系統相關的法規"},{"start":5037.987,"end":5065.755,"text":"adequ.他的因應的方式如何?就運安會的角度其實很多的面向都會影響到運輸安全尤其現在幾個比較大的廠商都宣稱他有幾乎是快要全功能的那個自駕那這個部分我覺得應該希望運安會能夠積極的一個應對去處理那這個部分是我提這個案子的最主要的一個意見那我這邊提是動力的10%"},{"start":5066.975,"end":5067.576,"text":"提出面報告。"},{"start":5086.177,"end":5097.825,"text":"接下來來處理第30到第37案第4幕經濟運輸事故調查能量其實之前通案有講不過我們還是各位委員提案委員可以講"},{"start":5098.746,"end":5101.588,"text":"好,林國臣委員。好,接下來許志堅委員。好,接下來許志堅委員。好,接下來許志堅委員。好,接下來許志堅委員。"},{"start":5129.684,"end":5142.538,"text":"18、業務費用捐贖好、許智傑委員好、謝謝吼。這是32案吼。好、那前面我一起講吼。前面16案的問題吼。也一起跟院長再反映一下吼。"},{"start":5143.319,"end":5143.999,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":5165.249,"end":5176.946,"text":"經過調查之後你們的具體建議然後包括我們做得出來的一些具體建議的事項以及他確實改善的事項這個部分我都沒有看到結果"},{"start":5178.642,"end":5200.283,"text":"是不是就是說這個部分我們也希望說你們調查出來然後展期的有沒有盡速完成啊然後調查出來的結果相關的單位有沒有確實改善啊這個部分是不是請議員會也說明一下我們測試的時間我們會後可以補稍等一下好不好好這內地事務還沒有委員要補充說明的"},{"start":5202.233,"end":5203.194,"text":"現在是不是都改善了?"},{"start":5221.295,"end":5243.606,"text":"那比如說那個泰魯閣那個就是那個坍塌嘛坍塌你攝影用AI去處理那你可以避免以後再發生那這個部分是不是有改善了是不是應該會對這些部分也應該都去做追蹤才會有具體改善以後防範未然我是不是請執行長簡討說一下"},{"start":5246.421,"end":5270.228,"text":"報告委員有關於普悠瑪的事故目前我們還在列管的部分只剩下四項這四項裡面就牽涉到法規的訂定有牽涉到新購大設備的一個部分這個部分我們還在持續每半年我們就會進行追蹤跟列管這個是跟行政院這邊協助行政院去做"},{"start":5270.828,"end":5272.188,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":5295.814,"end":5297.856,"text":" bicyclist 知會監控有沒有說預計什麼時候會完成?"},{"start":5326.407,"end":5344.03,"text":"在每半年的這個剛剛所報告的每半年的那個追蹤列管只要台鐵局報上來我們覺得說這個部分是可以去解除列管那我們就會進行解除列管的一個動作那但是這個期程的部分還是要請那個台鐵局這邊去做持續的一個辦理"},{"start":5346.701,"end":5364.546,"text":"接下來請林建憲委員謝謝主席本期是有提議第31案我想請教一下運安會剛剛我們多位委員在提問的時候都有發現不管你是展期或者列管水路案件都最多"},{"start":5366.308,"end":5374.144,"text":"我記得我以前有跟你提過嘛,我有諮詢過,現在水路案件在我們的立案調查比例大概多少?超過幾成嗎?"},{"start":5383.415,"end":5399.144,"text":"過去水路事故可能佔了所有調查案的可能75%到80%但是目前大概已經降到30%到40%之間像我們現在公路組目前是有10件公路組現在有多少?"},{"start":5399.764,"end":5422.894,"text":"目前水路組今年有13件所以也就是說我們現在其實跟其他組已經比較接近但是鐵道組目前只有2件你去年水路佔77%你今年就降到40%還是40%我講的是立案件數立案的話去年大概是30件今年是13件大概降了二分之一降了一半水路嘛"},{"start":5424.054,"end":5446.904,"text":"最主要是因為300噸以下沒有乘客的漁船我們是排除在我們調查的對象那時候叫你要把那個標準改一下那時候依這個委員的指示公路標準有沒有改公路標準也改了現在要多少人裁立案以前是要死亡三人死傷五人"},{"start":5450.476,"end":5475.517,"text":"這邊可以委員報告以前是死亡4人現在降為3人那另外有 去年就死亡3人沒有沒有3人 超過3人是4人那另外 把一個玉拿掉對 把玉拿掉 那另外就是那個什麼校車啦大公車 自用大公車我們都會列入 現在公路占多少公路的比例喔在你立案件數啦"},{"start":5481.141,"end":5503.144,"text":"我講請主委你要注意啦以前公路只在我們運安會整體立案件數去年是6%啦2023年是6%啦我們成立運安會主要台灣現在死傷人數最多的就是在公路啦一年死傷人數五十幾萬啦在公路上撞死一年都死三千人啦"},{"start":5504.485,"end":5526.165,"text":"對不對那運輸安全的目的應該就是保障國能安全你的調查能量應該在公路結果你公路只佔你全部建樹的百分之六去年百分之六我都叫你要調整啦你水路佔七十幾趴因為你水路太寬鬆啦兩艘漁船稍微碰撞你也要立案所以你把人力都浪費在那裡你現在有改掉那個標準了嗎"},{"start":5527.185,"end":5544.668,"text":"adequ?不然你那個水路你的調查結果都什麼請他要穿什麼救生衣旁邊要有個救生圈你都寫那些廢話那我都浪費那你現在要把它調整過來所以主委這個部分你應該把運安會的調查能量"},{"start":5545.529,"end":5546.01,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":5563.473,"end":5577.928,"text":"而且都是每次都是那種什麼自撞什麼的撞到的這個你們調查的結果出來沒有出來啦已經出已經公佈那以後會不會再發生應該會比較少啦不能說我們來看一下好不好是是是抱歉啦主席謝謝"},{"start":5579.705,"end":5592.753,"text":"好,謝謝林委員。好,那針對於第四幕的部分,欸,我問一下,你們現在那個一年多前說太空事故啊,行政院說將會你們處理,還是空的嗎?太空還是空的?有嗎?有這個組嗎?太空事故有專家有進來嗎?"},{"start":5602.018,"end":5610.088,"text":"報告主席我們現在有一些資訊的專家那我們都跟他們聯絡現在還是在跟行政院持續的審查當中有一些實際上有營運經驗的一些專家"},{"start":5613.749,"end":5631.3,"text":"好那我們針對第30案到37案進行處理這是第4幕經濟運輸事故調查能量的部分這部分第35案測案其一個案併入第一案因為是通案已經討論過了併入第一案這個一併凍結10%提供書面報告使得凍結各位有沒有不同意見沒有好"},{"start":5644.161,"end":5649.412,"text":"好接下來處理決議案請各位翻開第38案"},{"start":5666.38,"end":5690.514,"text":"好,三十八案有沒有問題?三十八案那個院會意見。這個我們有辦會溝通,那有後的委員的同意就是提出施政報告及說明之後得改善未來的事情。我們有一句有...這個跟蔡委員都報告過了?蔡委員都報告過,是。好,那蔡第三位的案子。好,那我們就修正文字後通過。第39案。"},{"start":5699.961,"end":5706.534,"text":"有阿有阿有阿是是是是是因為是是是"},{"start":5713.592,"end":5716.915,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":5741.738,"end":5769.472,"text":"第四十二案照案通過第四十三案遵照辦理第四十三案照案通過第四十四案遵照辦理四十四案照案通過第四十五案遵照辦理四十五案照案通過第四十六案遵照辦理四十六案照案通過第四十七案四十七案我們有提供縮帖那希望檢疫能夠改成文字修訂為書面報告這樣本來是想專案報告改成書面報告"},{"start":5771.039,"end":5772.962,"text":"有,有,有溝通嗎?說什麼,他說什麼?"},{"start":5783.119,"end":5798.052,"text":"來來大聲一點說明大聲一點報告報告召委那個報告委員就是那個資料我們有跟也給有委員那邊啦但是還沒有獲得就是是不是同意的那就再開一次好不好那就再開一次你們都你們都"},{"start":5806.601,"end":5825.388,"text":"給你們一個良心建議啦拜託你們這個單位大家都非常尊重你們你們都不用工主決議你們就看一看他要這個專案那你們希望書面那你要跟提案委員溝通這是尊敬委員提案權"},{"start":5826.488,"end":5842.615,"text":"阿你們都不說阿現在這樣說阿他看他他看他阿很簡單的事情可以處理阿你們也不去溝通阿這個留下這個案件幹嘛我們有有我們有聯繫執行長有去阿去他有沒有同意啦"},{"start":5843.959,"end":5845.179,"text":"你們現在誰手上有文化委員的電話?"},{"start":5871.874,"end":5877.084,"text":"欸你們這個每位交通委員也人也不多,你們沒有人可以去跟他問一下是不是?執行長你會不會說明一下啊?"},{"start":5883.942,"end":5901.164,"text":"好,那這樣好不好,因為後面還有很多單位在等,那我們再次宣告47案就照案通過。好,以上為運安會的預算處理,到這邊。那我們接下來要換場運演所。好,謝謝,我們休息五分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":5908.66,"end":5911.903,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":5938.766,"end":5942.028,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":6173.083,"end":6198.639,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。請官委員翻開我們的總表。交通部運輸研究所單位預算這個併案的一個總表。好的,我先介紹一下現在列席的官員。首先是交通部武聖元次長。歡迎啊,次長。"},{"start":6203.257,"end":6224.302,"text":"以及我們陸鎮大安司黃英貴司長黃司長齁運輸監理司胡迪奇副司長副司長司長請假是吧還是不想理我們好好你有藥工齁好會計處張信英處長好張處長"},{"start":6230.029,"end":6232.138,"text":"以及我們運營所林記國所長林所長"},{"start":6237.53,"end":6265.584,"text":"運營所下面的主計是曾麒麟主任曾主任還有我們鐵道局鐵道局現在還沒有先休息一下休息一下好那我們現在審查運營所相關的預算那我們瞄了幾眼運營所骨頭比較多那個肉的部分比較少一點速度可能稍微快一點好我們審查第一案第一案就是"},{"start":6268.366,"end":6293.841,"text":"稅出的通案、業務費、水電費我這邊是我個人一個提案最主要是第一案我們看到比去年增加了17%在水電費的部分其實因為我這次審查預算在交通部所有的預算我都有提出來了你們不代表說你們增加了一定超高的所以我們在這裡是有建議做一個刪減"},{"start":6295.302,"end":6323.475,"text":"再來做一個節能審探政府率先做示範的那種概念而已那我提案嗎?首長沒意見嗎?可以啊?會不會太少?我可以說明一下那個運營所事實上我們一直都在推動各項的節能措施事實上包括運營所都獲得經濟部年度的這個節電優良單位的評鑑所以代表我們事實上是確實這個有在注意這個節能的跟節電的這個部分"},{"start":6324.395,"end":6325.295,"text":" bicyclope,一、繼續審查"},{"start":6344.022,"end":6355.165,"text":"那確實這個水電費真的是非常的近所以這個部分是不是可以漸淺就是凍結那我們來提這個書面報告報告委員水電費要怪台灣電力公司我看算了饒了一命吧你說凍結幹什麼"},{"start":6368.246,"end":6384.02,"text":"動姐也沒意思,90萬還好啦不要那麼好不好跟召委報告一下,跟你求個情,水電費算了好不好第一案不予刪除就這樣自己把它"},{"start":6388.78,"end":6390.341,"text":"第二案稅租通案業務費資訊服務費"},{"start":6406.909,"end":6418.162,"text":"知訊服務費的部分知訊服務費我們看到了這個113年度今年是2674萬那明年你編的預算呢增加了25%變成3344萬那我覺得這個政府"},{"start":6423.147,"end":6437.952,"text":"稍微有也不能說大就是你們要說明具體說明理由到底增加是怎麼樣那我們問了一下我們發覺說這個應該是有一些調整的空間這個節約大家為這個節省預算那我這邊提的是3.2百萬凍結10%請你做詳盡的說明因為增加600多萬我只3、2百萬這樣可以接受跟召委報告一下"},{"start":6449.376,"end":6466.155,"text":"我們增加的原因就是因為從明年開始那個有一些這個原來是這樣公路容量的這些分析軟體跟這個網站還有一些模擬模式的開發原本不是編載運輸所的預算是公路局的預算"},{"start":6466.896,"end":6487.08,"text":"但是因為部裡面基於行政簡便所以要求從明年開始回編就改編到運輸所所以因為這樣子所以整個資訊系統軟體網站它的資訊服務的工作包括治安、維護、防禦等等就會因此而增加所以這個也是確實有它"},{"start":6487.66,"end":6488.301,"text":"第二案,針對於業務費、資訊服務費。"},{"start":6514.298,"end":6526.425,"text":"一百五的?差不多啦?算啦,這兩百萬以內的,我們又不是鄉民代表會。我跟你請示一下。"},{"start":6533.772,"end":6537.094,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":6563.564,"end":6568.665,"text":"李文哲有代表他沒問題啦對,他沒問題,他說尊重主席啦坤貞他有說尊重主席決定好那這個部分是稅出通貸業務費委辦費的部分因為委辦費你們編了3365萬那委辦費的部分我們也發覺也增加了27%比113年增加了729萬那顯然會有更多東西需要去委辦"},{"start":6593.029,"end":6594.21,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":6615.211,"end":6615.711,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":6646.613,"end":6668.732,"text":"三點一百萬,凍結一百萬,科目自行調整使用。提供書面報告使得動之。如果各位沒有問題,我們再處理五到六案。為什麼都有提啊?沒有人提啊?我這邊三點一千萬,你們先說明一下好不好?"},{"start":6669.949,"end":6670.669,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四"},{"start":6689.076,"end":6694.779,"text":"一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":6716.128,"end":6728.103,"text":"這個增加都是因為配合整個一個院的指示跟一些政策推動的這個實際需要所以是不是建請可以免於簡略凍結反之時我們來提書面報告或動之"},{"start":6732.188,"end":6755.86,"text":"好的,因為所長,其實我們這邊純粹以預算的角度來考量,純潔預算,因為在今年度你只編7,316萬,7,300多萬,但是114年呢,你的預算是1.38億啦,1.38億,其實增加了89%,所以我們看到這個增加比較多,當然你有提供一些項目嘛,淨零啊、排碳啊,有一些項目,"},{"start":6756.34,"end":6758.942,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":6783.561,"end":6785.642,"text":"三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":6803.01,"end":6829.41,"text":"是跟委員 呃 召委報告齁 剛提到的 呃 其實 呃 因為所在我們部裡面扮演的就是所謂的自顧的一個角色齁 剛提到那個競技排隊的部分其實就由他們在統合在做各個單位都有配合做 但是主要主軸還是由他們在做雖然因為這個 剛講的這個競技排隊確實是我們 呃最近這幾年來我們覺得是一個很重要的一個業務齁 是不是這邊可以拜託 呃 這個"},{"start":6831.271,"end":6843.682,"text":"稍微是不是可以高台櫃手就用凍結方式讓他這個預算可以編組。包括因為他有所謂的交通路口的部分那些標線的一些指引的問題要去做一個統一的規範。"},{"start":6846.124,"end":6871.961,"text":"好那針對本案我們就凍結10%第五到第六案稅出通案業務費一般事務費凍結10%提供書面報告使得動之各位有沒有不同意見沒有好我們接下來待會我不講話啦下一案拜託提案委員講一講前面五案都有在講來七到二十二案那很多委員都有提案針對第一幕運輸科技運用研究"},{"start":6876.545,"end":6882.331,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、"},{"start":6898.425,"end":6917.915,"text":"一定要刪,因為這裏面,好像湖邊的蠻厲害的。最主要的原因,相關研究的實際績效,是真的有待加強。所以啊,這裏啊,就所長啊,自己講,刪多少,一定要刪。"},{"start":6919.176,"end":6947.335,"text":"另外第十案是我還是建議主席的這個裁定百分之十凍結百分之十第十四案可以改為主結議第十四案改主結議第十六案也是主張最少要凍百分之十那以上就是第七案的部分一定要刪刪多刪少因為我旁邊好像因為壓力也太大"},{"start":6948.616,"end":6973.083,"text":"所以要刪多少由所長自己講好不好他兩次用完了吧但是你的還沒有用一個人兩次林俊憲委員謝謝主席其實我們醫研所又一直什麼研究現在你們算一下現在大概多少位委員"},{"start":6980.293,"end":6982.655,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、"},{"start":7002.432,"end":7028.621,"text":"另外我提第八案是因為人工智慧現在預算這個變成一個熱門名詞啦動不動就寫人工智慧什麼智慧什麼的你那個公路事件攤開管理計畫那我請教我請教運燃所啦那我們的每年車禍件數有減少嗎你每年都花那麼多錢在研究如果道路安全如果什麼智慧都是一些很聽了"},{"start":7031.342,"end":7034.004,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查"},{"start":7053.018,"end":7069.08,"text":"每一年在公路上死亡的三千多人欸五十幾萬人受死傷欸是不是應該要有一些績效出來好啦現在預算在給你我滴滴啪啦那我先凍結10%啦那原所應該要三個月提計畫就你的辦理的成效嘛"},{"start":7070.461,"end":7071.362,"text":"謝謝陳樹葉召委接下來陳雪真委員"},{"start":7085.905,"end":7101.916,"text":"好,謝謝主席。那本席就是針對運營所在114年度預算案在這個運輸科技應用研究業務向下有新增編列智慧道路技術應用與運輸效率升級計畫。那第一年的經費是1600萬元。"},{"start":7103.497,"end":7123.988,"text":" 其實本席的意見也是跟剛剛軍縣委員的重點差不多。因為我們知道運營所是交通部的一個就是應該算是那個智庫提供相關針對交通安全的一個改善的一些就是建議或者是策略。那我們也看到交通部在"},{"start":7125.228,"end":7151.783,"text":"106年到109年有推動智慧運輸系統發展建設計畫這是應該算是第一期計畫那在110年又接續第二期的計畫就是到11年到113年就是預言所負責這個人工智慧應用於公路事件探勘與管理計畫那在明年度114年就是要接續推動第三期的計畫就是這個智慧道路技術應用與運輸效率"},{"start":7154.084,"end":7156.365,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":7178.37,"end":7208.285,"text":""},{"start":7209.455,"end":7227.729,"text":"好謝謝陳雪生委員好第7案到第22案齁其實國政委員坐在我旁邊我壓力也很大你知道嗎我是希望他離開齁我代表他發言剛才提到這個3減5千萬這個齁首長"},{"start":7236.265,"end":7249.293,"text":"欸,我懷疑,剛才郡議員講的,我來這邊好幾屆了,四屆了齁。我們一直希望你委外啊,能夠降低。你現在,你又增加那麼多錢,你幹什麼?是要做委外嗎?"},{"start":7251.212,"end":7280.532,"text":"包括委員,我們委外一直在降低,有按遵照大院的...為什麼要增加那麼多錢呢?因為就是新的一些工作,像這幾年整個道安非常的重要。新的你們去研究就好啦。但是這裡面有一些道安的工作,它事實上要有大量的一些調查的一些工作,還是有需要的。如果你們一直委外的話,我是主張這個預算全數刪除,還不是三五千萬,九千多萬應該通通刪掉,郭政委你覺得呢?"},{"start":7285.895,"end":7307.389,"text":"今天有說全部算喔?你也說全部算喔?不過我剛才看那個首長報告還滿虔誠的齁不是不是不是,因為他是個老實人啊我知道,我認識他很久啦我們來台北開會常常借他的會議室啊總是喝點咖啡、茶什麼的"},{"start":7310.143,"end":7334.56,"text":"國中委員都在我這邊等等我壓力很大你離開好不好第七案跟趙偉報告第七案到22案齁三個三五百萬嘛應該也要有啦五千萬是不要啦好不好好你不想同意我全部殺人就凍結好我先等委員都補充說明完畢我們再來好謝謝來齁來蔡其昌委員"},{"start":7335.723,"end":7356.057,"text":"我簡單啦,第一個我的提案100萬那個不用再討論啦,凍結100萬是象徵啦那我主要就是說檢驗檢探裡面喔,自行車不但是產業對碳排的減少也很大的幫助啊我都覺得你們應該更加強一下所以我的100萬不足討論這個應該是沒有問題啦因為等一下凍結的都超過我"},{"start":7360.18,"end":7384.889,"text":"所以這是第一個第二個對於這個運營所我其實主席我是主張這樣子這個其實每一個委員他都有他對交通部該去規劃或者應該去研究的題目大家都會跟運營所建議跟交通部建議所以我是覺得這個比例委外比例下降這個交通委員會從我"},{"start":7386.784,"end":7410.469,"text":"十幾年前進來就已經開始在講這個你們也按照標準不能增加只能逐年減少但有些工作我也知道你們不可能全部可以自己做的來那你院所到底要編多少人才有能力把這些事情解決所以原則性的事情掌握住三的部分我還是建議大家盡量不要三太多因為我們都要叫人做我們委員在這個台下"},{"start":7412.609,"end":7423.899,"text":"一下子要人家回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究回去研究"},{"start":7443.729,"end":7460.584,"text":"三個一千萬你看怎麼樣?全部餒?因為當然最後召委來採視啦我們底下小鬼在那邊討論啦齁國賊兄請你先離開好不好這邊我會幫你處理"},{"start":7463.803,"end":7491.755,"text":"好那我這邊也稍微說一下我提三個案子我就簡單啦委員說過我都不再重複啊那其實第11案主要是針對於這個因為你是四年計劃嘛那明年是最後一年編了5025萬那主要用於港灣設施的防災研究啊這沒問題啊大家都支持嘛那我覺得因為接近尾聲了想要知道一些研究的一個結果就那天好像你們的人員來跟我們說明啊"},{"start":7492.355,"end":7492.775,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":7513.951,"end":7533.951,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7534.472,"end":7550.088,"text":"現在的我們台灣的一個組合力無人機它的主力機種可以運用在你們在運用的這個部分不是說自己去拍這個部分我是覺得這個部分麻煩你們到時候能夠詳細跟我說明一下好不好那我們針對所有委員提案麻煩"},{"start":7552.068,"end":7575.695,"text":"你們做個說明是謝謝趙偉跟謝謝各位委員我想整個道安的這個經濟是需要持續不斷那因為所我想我們就是繼續在這個研究發展公路上面包括應用影像的辨識技術去提升整個車輛上面裝設的這些所謂的ADAS的這個它的一個功能那希望"},{"start":7576.235,"end":7576.335,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":7593.982,"end":7614.552,"text":"另外剛才昭緯特別提到了無人機,雖然我們前期計畫是透過這個計畫然後我們開放我們的場域然後輔導國內的廠商開發我們可以應用在國內本土的這種偏鄉離島環境的這種物流的這種機型已經有三家業者三個機型"},{"start":7616.052,"end":7633.588,"text":"經過我們這幾年的一個從概念驗證到服務驗證那明年就是最後一年就是我們希望可以完成商業的驗證那可以實際後面就可以來做這個包括像雲林會像衛福部現在也跟我們在做接洽他可以希望未來我們的這個無人機可以幫忙"},{"start":7637.29,"end":7660.794,"text":"獲得免費配送的功能等等所以這個部分確實我們都有這個很實務實的在推動我們的這些工作所以是不是可以建議確實我們這個需要辦理的這個研究工作非常的多那我們會自我要求我們的這個研究都會讓他能夠真正的有市政上的一個應用"},{"start":7661.954,"end":7682.005,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7682.305,"end":7710.697,"text":"李君哲委員謝謝昭偉當然現在大家針對交通運輸相關的議題都非常的重視所以在交通委員會各個委員針對相關的議題都要交通部提出具體的研究以及相關的建議改善的政策我們這一次運營所的相關的運輸科技應用研究的業務"},{"start":7712.037,"end":7719.562,"text":"其實說明也算清楚就是說我們針對運輸科技應用研究的業務還有這個陸運及港灣設計防災的技術研究計畫"},{"start":7728.189,"end":7751.488,"text":"以及運輸部門深度檢探及調試研究計畫還有無人機交通領域的創新應用之整合測試計畫還有智慧道路的技術應用與運輸效率的升級計畫都是面臨我們現在所遇到的交通議題的困境以及未來交通運輸發展之趨勢"},{"start":7753.53,"end":7772.08,"text":"所以這些項目在運營所也都提出具體的一些研究的這些項目我們也尊重各個委員所提出的意見對於運營所的研究的量能相關的這些預算其實我認為還是要給予"},{"start":7774.361,"end":7782.718,"text":"他們經費的運用。我具體的建議是3減300萬然後凍結10%提書面報告後解凍。以上。"},{"start":7786.343,"end":7805.965,"text":"好謝謝各位委員跟我們這個運援所的一個說明啊那針對本案討論已久齁那是不是因為我們看到三點案有三個啦但是都是我們林委員提的嘛那我們就刪你最小條這一條了齁三百萬好不好可以啦三百萬啦可以啦"},{"start":7810.361,"end":7836.558,"text":"三個五百萬啦。還是五百萬可以接種嗎?不是啦,因為我跟你講你們那些研究案委辦的很多那個刪下去只有九點多趴而已啦。別的單位啊,所以吼,不可以討價還價。我跟你講,你去請那個為事的來我已經壓力很大了啦,不要再這樣啦。好不好?我跟你講啦,這個看柯市長的面子啦,我跟你講啦,懂了沒有?"},{"start":7839.259,"end":7866.819,"text":"好了那我們想這個案子這個階段已經停太久了齁那我們直接來處理啊大家的共識其實也蠻接近的不遠了齁那針對於第七就不是五百嗎五百嗎對啊動十趴好然後科目科目可以讓你們齁去那個那就三百萬我們動百分之二十出面是可以嗎好科目自己調整"},{"start":7869.701,"end":7891.98,"text":"好,針對於第七到二十二案第一幕運輸科技應用研究業務的部分我們做一下處理三減三百萬凍結百分之二十提書面報告使得動之科目自行調整那其中第十四案改為主決議"},{"start":7894.622,"end":7905.128,"text":"好各位沒有問題我們繼續處理第二三案到第41案第三目運輸研究業務提案委員有要補充說明的嗎好黃建豪委員"},{"start":7914.716,"end":7931.207,"text":"好,謝謝趙委員我提的是第30案是針對運輸研究業務下面的人本交通運輸研究發展計劃我想因為這個是去年114年定成這個基準年嘛是行人死亡願景那當你希望說逐年的這個人死亡人呃行人死亡人數能夠下降"},{"start":7931.787,"end":7948.519,"text":"但是如果我們比較112跟113的這個所謂行人死亡人數其實基本上可以說持平或是有點微幅的增加所以說我覺得這個東西跟政策目標有違反那既然你們是部的單位到底這個人本交通運輸安全研究發展計畫你們到底要怎麼做"},{"start":7949.119,"end":7949.219,"text":"二、繼續審查"},{"start":7973.291,"end":7975.172,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":7992.478,"end":8007.484,"text":"那到底台灣適合什麼樣的方案我是希望說我們能夠提出一個真正能夠解決本土問題的人本交通問題而不是一直參考國外的一直拿來用因為就用不起來啊當然說我們的7樓也好我們的7樓這種文化還有佔用的問題那還有我們人行道你要蓋人行道的時候"},{"start":8008.004,"end":8008.805,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":8037.869,"end":8060.649,"text":"謝謝主席本席提的是第33案就是針對有關那個橋樑的管理資訊系統的維護管理因為我們知道這個橋樑關係的這個交通安全非常的重要那我們也看到之前就是有爆發這個就是某教授他開設的這個工程技術顧問公司他承攬了我們"},{"start":8061.469,"end":8066.091,"text":"全台約百分之八十的橋樑檢測的標案那竟然他竟然沒有派這個就是親自派員去現場勘查拍照就是上傳不實的照片我覺得這個是一個非常嚴重的一個問題那當然他目前也已經就是被判刑兩年"},{"start":8079.316,"end":8082.419,"text":"關於這個問題,希望運輸署能夠說明目前臺灣地區橋樑管理資訊系統的維護管理防備機制。我們希望這樣的管理資訊確實要落實,因為這個關係到每一個用路人的安全問題。"},{"start":8099.494,"end":8122.459,"text":"所以本席針對就是有關我們明年度的這個預算在運輸研究業務向下編列的人本交通運輸研究發展計劃第三年的這個經費我提凍結百分之十然後可以針對這一個部分來提出書面報告後使得動之謝謝好謝謝林俊憲委員麥克風"},{"start":8131.838,"end":8160.252,"text":"謝主席本集題第29案29案是我們的運輸研究業務向下的基礎運輸研究主要是要研究臺灣公路容量噴吸軟體一帶公路交通系統模擬軟體你看你每次申請運營所的預算光是各項研究的題目研究項目題目有空要眼花瞭亂但是你這個研究下去啊你要解決什麼?塞車問題嗎?"},{"start":8162.398,"end":8167.481,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":8180.41,"end":8180.67,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":8196.92,"end":8199.723,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查一、繼續審查"},{"start":8211.874,"end":8236.408,"text":"明年要增加2500萬到8289你這4年下來光這個人本交通研究計畫研究好幾億喔你總預算多少行政院合計4年的計畫大概是3.4億平均每年大概是8500萬3.4億都是研究喔沒有任何硬體建設吧只要研究要研究3億塊"},{"start":8242.043,"end":8255.823,"text":"那可以拿出什麼樣的跡象?我看你在預算書也沒有寫得很清楚啦不過你明年預算有一筆錢我倒是蠻期待的就是你說那個道路交通標誌號線的設置一個參考指引"},{"start":8256.824,"end":8258.745,"text":"adequate to the state budget."},{"start":8279.155,"end":8294.189,"text":"議員會議長"},{"start":8294.269,"end":8297.412,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":8321.892,"end":8323.293,"text":"二、繼續審查二十五案"},{"start":8337.805,"end":8355.637,"text":"那有鑒於這個要達到2050年近年轉型的一個目標那我們政府也投入了大筆的一個金費準備要推廣這個運具電動化的一個項目那目前是預估在2030年要達成市區的公車跟公務車全面電動化"},{"start":8356.477,"end":8357.858,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":8386.169,"end":8387.59,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":8414.533,"end":8435.448,"text":"接下來請林國臣委員本席提四個案23案、24案、27、28這四個案當然都是刪減我看在這個刪減的這種惡劣的環境之下就由主席來做裁定因為我刪的話蠻多的但是"},{"start":8440.071,"end":8458.879,"text":"不要撤啦不要撤啦因為還是要三但是我要提醒所長三的範圍說實在你們可以自請調緊不要硬邦邦如果這樣的話我也會跟你一樣會堅持好學生委員等一下等一下先崑澤委員來崑澤委員"},{"start":8463.049,"end":8487.729,"text":"好 謝謝我是第34案有關於人本交通運輸研究發展計劃第一期112年到115年他編列預算是8289萬元當然他主要的用途是包括強化人、車、路、橋、安全資能及管理等等"},{"start":8488.63,"end":8514.192,"text":"那其實在113年我們看這個交通事故的113年149月交通事故的總件數是高達290332萬件那相較於去年同期是降低了但是也僅僅降低了3.3%"},{"start":8516.674,"end":8533.045,"text":"二十九萬件比去年同期降了3.3%這個在當初我們要求相關的交通事故的總件數應該要降到5%是有進步但是還是不符合我們的預期"},{"start":8535.166,"end":8559.225,"text":"那相關的計畫就提升道路交通安全的成效必須要嚴謹的督促再提升所以我是建議各位這個強化這種人車路橋安全資料及管理這個預算8289萬其實它有初步的成績但是我們還是不滿意3.3%我們預計是要5%以上"},{"start":8562.387,"end":8576.671,"text":"所以這個部分我希望大家不要刪除啦不要刪除我是提出凍結預算500萬提出書面報告後解凍以上好謝謝接下來陳樹葉召委之後陳雪真委員"},{"start":8579.525,"end":8579.945,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":8600.916,"end":8618.855,"text":"議員會在執行道路交通標誌、標線、號誌、設置參考指引是怎樣做出來的?是去國外參觀還是自己想的?還是自己坐在辦公室想的?還是有去實地每個路口去研究、去觀察?"},{"start":8619.736,"end":8634.281,"text":"因為我覺得說我的選區就是台一線永晉田尾大概有幾個入口在今年大概是四五月開始就是有做了一些變動本來都有左轉的這個號誌"},{"start":8635.862,"end":8660.623,"text":" ﹝廢話﹞"},{"start":8660.623,"end":8681.698,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":8681.778,"end":8682.078,"text":"陳雪森委員"},{"start":8712.666,"end":8726.864,"text":"剛才那個國政委員跟我討論還是擔心你們通通都是請學者專家又是委外啦所以預算這個超出那麼多他三年的主要理由是這樣"},{"start":8728.185,"end":8756.25,"text":"不過這樣啦,稍微我兩個擴大還沒用他心情已經比較好一點這個今天心情到現在為止比較放鬆了所以我的建議他比較能夠虛心的接受啦砍他說一定要砍好不好三還是要三當然也不能像崑哲偉說主張只是凍結啦稍微你評估一下好不好,三一點好不好,一試一下"},{"start":8756.69,"end":8779.433,"text":"好謝謝各位委員來請來運營所來做一個綜合性的說明好謝謝召委跟各位委員我想道安確實是大家非常關切重重之重那委員執教像我們在這一個計畫裡面主要就是要去建立本土化的道路交通安全指引希望可以讓這一個工程"},{"start":8780.614,"end":8781.375,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":8805.228,"end":8827.932,"text":" bicyclist 或是左轉偏心車道或是耗置的這種所謂的這個實質的設計事實上都有相關的規範現在問題就是實務單位本身在整個在施作從規劃設計到建設的時候他沒有一套指引能夠把我們現行的這些相關的規範能夠怎麼樣應用在這個實際的道路環境上面去做比"},{"start":8828.032,"end":8829.173,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":8854.438,"end":8876.437,"text":"另外像這個公路容量研究是讓我們很多交通的道路交通的改善或是一些新建計畫在做它的一個規劃設計評估的時候一個很基礎的一個分析的工具包括要知道它的一個容量才能夠知道這個道路改善或設計之後所提供的服務水準到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":8877.718,"end":8899.065,"text":"這個是一個本土化而且是需要長期性研究的工作那橋樑的這個管理生系統裡面我們事實上已經把這個原來存在的說這個檢測人員他可以在檢測實際到橋樑檢測之前就把他的這個頭像這個拍照上傳這個已經把它取消掉了"},{"start":8899.825,"end":8927.733,"text":"現在只有檢測人員他實際到的他要執行檢測的橋樑現場才能夠再把他的頭像能夠上傳而且後端也有把這個道路管理機關他所委託檢測人員有資格的檢測人員的這些資料都有放在資料系統資料庫那會去做比對那所以他如果不是這一個合格的檢測人員他基本上就會把他給這一個發掘出來那另外如果說"},{"start":8928.553,"end":8957.652,"text":"adequa管理機關他的橋樑有一些所謂的需要比較優先來改善去維修的他如果還沒有做的話我們現在的系統也都會自動的來警示會提這個警示提醒這個道路管理機關的這些主辦單位另外我們也會每年定期兩次去主動用e-mail的方式去提醒這個道路管理機關比如說縣市政府的首長會提醒他們你們小館的橋樑"},{"start":8958.473,"end":8963.437,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、"},{"start":8988.075,"end":8993.218,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":9016.778,"end":9037.012,"text":"所以這些研究案所研究出來的具體的建議或是給其他行政單位的參考到底有沒有落實在實際上實務上這個我想是今天很多委員會非常關心的第一個在你們的案子裡面比如說我剛剛有質疑"},{"start":9038.473,"end":9054.991,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":9055.251,"end":9055.271,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":9070.545,"end":9086.994,"text":"但是你們這個作為推動調適工作之參考那我又想請教我們的高鐵公司跟台鐵公司又對於你們研究出來的這些研究案的結論或者是具體建議又採納了多少?"},{"start":9088.465,"end":9113.702,"text":"這是第二個問題第三個剛剛也很多人在關心的現在行人安全我們道路交通安全都非常重要尤其我們相關的這個法規都有做大幅度的調整那在後續當然我們希望有更多的研究案是來建立台灣本土的道路交通道路的一個設施的一個建置的一個標準規劃的一個指引包括標誌標線號誌等等"},{"start":9116.064,"end":9142.431,"text":"包括 your research on smart transportation, local government, local road traffic, smart transportation and so on.但是這些都是照研究,研究案我們錢當然可以給你,預算當然要支持。但是我們更多委員是希望能夠看到的是這些研究案裡面在實務經驗上的一個回饋跟正面的一個"},{"start":9143.763,"end":9161.817,"text":" ﹝廢話﹞"},{"start":9161.877,"end":9179.926,"text":"獲得提醒及參考指引。獲得提醒及參考指引。例如說你是在交通部鄉下的運燃所。你的這個相關的一個參考跟指引能不能被我們的內政部國土署納入在他的所謂的他的道路設計規範的一個系統裡。"},{"start":9183.001,"end":9202.789,"text":"adequate其實才是我們真正關心的這個預算花下去我們願意支持啊但是支持出來的研究的一個具體的建議跟結論跟成果到底能不能實踐作為我們整個國家對不管是海陸空相關的交通的安全的一個"},{"start":9203.709,"end":9216.532,"text":"最有利的一個學術或是研究的基礎這個才是我們希望能夠給予預算支持之外請你也告訴我們舉個例子也好好不好謝謝"},{"start":9218.769,"end":9223.774,"text":"謝謝何委員。研究只是一個手段,真正是要實地落地應用,這個是我們一直非常重視的。"},{"start":9238.348,"end":9263.291,"text":"那以這個道路交通安全檢查的這個制度來講事實上因為我們公路法在去年修法就已經明文規定這個要推動道路的安全檢查那等於就是說那這個法已經入法但是後續要執行那現在就是由我們的研究計畫能夠把這個整個制度這個檢查的表單這些檢查的工具還有相關的這個配套"},{"start":9263.931,"end":9269.653,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":9287.574,"end":9315.109,"text":"好,黃天豪委員謝謝趙偉,不好意思,我再呼應一下剛剛何行春委員講的其實就是說法律很多,研究案很多但是比如說剛剛提到的像這個內政部那邊是行人交通安全設置條例今年三讀通過然後之前又有一個所謂的道路交通標示標線設置規則其實我們在管道路管行人的相關法律非常非常多但變成是到底適用是內政部還是適用在交通部那到底誰來執行"},{"start":9316.149,"end":9316.329,"text":"二、繼續審查"},{"start":9332.834,"end":9333.995,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":9360.655,"end":9361.796,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":9384.927,"end":9400.28,"text":"但是三一執行完之後就像剛剛其他委員講的嘛你三一執行完你這研究案研究完之後我到地方政府去做的時候我能做到嗎還是一樣還是跟以前一樣照樣會每年3000多人死於車禍這個意外所以我就覺得這部分我覺得所長你們還是要積極一點了好不好"},{"start":9402.711,"end":9418.73,"text":"謝謝黃委員今天大家對於這個第三部討論已經非常非常充分了那當然因為我覺得總結啦因為其實我們運輸委員所是一個幕僚單位啦是個staff你的幫忙我們交通部部長"},{"start":9419.511,"end":9420.252,"text":" bicyclope"},{"start":9437.665,"end":9464.737,"text":"你知道嗎?如果說想得好,能夠落實,變成一個可執行的一個念頭,變成手腳都會動。啊如果弄得不好就是最差的是一個念頭咻一下過去了。但是咻一下過去花了1500萬,然後也沒幹什麼,就過去了。那另外一種是說執行一半了,手腳不協調啊,地方單位也不配合。其實這大概是所有委員比較擔心的。但我覺得這個部分有些是非戰之罪啦。你只要把你研究計畫做得好,"},{"start":9466.007,"end":9488.982,"text":"整個有決策能力的人他要不要用其實有時候不見得是幕僚單位可以決定的不過因為大家畢竟有擔心在預算上面呈現一些委員的一個擔心那我們看了一下第23案到41案我們預作以下處理我們這樣好不好整個幕一億四千"},{"start":9490.523,"end":9514.014,"text":"一億四千四百零一萬餘元。這個部分我們就整體來三減五百萬,凍結百分之十。請針對委員各個提議來做書面報告時的動機。科目自行調整使用。可以了。太少了。"},{"start":9516.055,"end":9516.595,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":9546.906,"end":9554.14,"text":"好那沒有問題我們接下來處理決議案42案到第48案請各位委員翻開第42案來翻一下"},{"start":9571.913,"end":9583.503,"text":"第42案 遵照辦理第43案遵照辦理第44案遵照辦理第45案遵照辦理第46案遵照辦理第47案遵照辦理"},{"start":9596.201,"end":9613.806,"text":"第47案照案通過第48案照案通過我們交通部運輸研究所處理完畢接下來換鐵道局休息5分鐘"},{"start":9620.964,"end":9624.346,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查"},{"start":9657.569,"end":9659.832,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":9693.638,"end":9696.761,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":9728.903,"end":9731.605,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":9767.393,"end":9791.934,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算。adequate to the current situation."},{"start":9801.614,"end":9811.203,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":9825.744,"end":9828.046,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、"},{"start":9835.56,"end":9846.727,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":9870.915,"end":9890.585,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查八、繼續審查九、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、繼續審查十、"},{"start":9903.615,"end":9915.351,"text":"好謝謝各位委員我們接下來審查交通部鐵道局及所屬114年度單位預算請各位翻開建議併案及預算表我們依序審查"},{"start":9917.634,"end":9922.978,"text":"首先是第一案,增列案,是稅務的部分,針對於罰金、罰還及貸金,罰金、罰還是這個部分。好,第一案,增列一百萬。"},{"start":9944.522,"end":9957.013,"text":"如果沒問題我們接下來審查處理第二到第14案稅出的部分第一幕一般行政有聽到委員要補充說明嗎?好徐副國務委員麥克風"},{"start":9965.909,"end":9991.486,"text":"謝謝主席本席提出第九案那有建議我們現在的那個鐵路系統都是主要採取日本的技術那跟中國的鐵道系統沒有直接的業務往來或技術合作的需求那針對鐵道局提出這個大陸地區旅費的部分本席是認為不大需要所以原本是要刪除但是經過溝通我們就提案凍結10%那請這個鐵道局提出書面報告號使得動之謝謝"},{"start":9995.469,"end":9995.744,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央"},{"start":9999.617,"end":10024.088,"text":"來林俊憲委員接下來林國臣主席本席也提類似我們就改凍結不刪除一樣是李運輝的問題好來林國臣委員好本席提第三案跟第11案現在我看起來這個鐵道好像最近非常強硬就改為不刪了就改為還是凍結"},{"start":10028.359,"end":10054.389,"text":"好,還有委員有意見嗎?好,針對於這個部分我本身有提幾個案啦當然主要第一個是水電費的部分啦針對於各個局數我們都希望節能審探政府部門先行這種概念但事實上增加不多啦那我這個改成組決議啦好不好希望你們注意單位內的這個節能審探那再來這個第"},{"start":10056.479,"end":10082.024,"text":"第七案第七案我提的部分是一般事務費因為我們看到你從今年度今年度的4200多萬加到了明年度預算看到的5485萬總共增加了1276萬大概30%左右一般事務費增加這麼多我們覺得這個大家要遵節開支所以有一些希望能夠幫你們去調整這邊提3.10%"},{"start":10083.804,"end":10100.913,"text":"其他五個提案也請你們去做一個參與。鐵道局來說明。好,謝謝各位委員。剛剛所提有關差旅費還有大陸地區旅費等等,凍結10%。我們遵從委員意見配合辦理。至於剛剛召委所提到的我們一般行政下面的事務費有關,"},{"start":10101.613,"end":10125.589,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10126.53,"end":10142.487,"text":"檔案櫃隔間的方法,所幸是發生在早上7點多,我們整個辦公室一堆這個隔間櫃通通都倒塌,如果在上班時間的話恐怕同仁會有安全上面的問題,所以我們希望明年能夠把它改成這個自視的這樣的一個隔間,再懇請委員來支持,謝謝。"},{"start":10145.097,"end":10159.498,"text":"好,因為我們一般的行政我們現在在審查的一個範圍裡面包括的項目是讓蠻多的啦那有委員提這個出國旅費大陸地區的旅費還有國外的旅費啦還有其他的一般的行政"},{"start":10160.279,"end":10163.623,"text":"你剛剛是講說出國禮費3%你尊重嗎?凍結10%不是刪除,聽錯了聽錯兩個字是凍結還是刪除凍結凍結凍結是是是那我們一併來處理一併來處理"},{"start":10182.274,"end":10200.825,"text":"還沒有?稍等一下我們現在在處理的是第二到第14案是嗎?二到十四案二到十四案這個部分有不少委員提案刪減金額不一那凍結大概從10%到20%那這樣總經費是13億"},{"start":10206.789,"end":10232.895,"text":"一千五百五十八萬餘元這個部分齁好看齁平衡一下了齁沒有委員沒有委員沒有委員三點嗎只有我齁剩下我的嗎剛剛跟委員報告就真的是有這個電梯然後還有污水設施還有辦公室隔間安全的問題這個我想再拜託委員給我們支持謝謝"},{"start":10235.046,"end":10262.992,"text":"好那有有沒有委員那個不同意見我們直接採凍結方式處理各位有沒有意見沒有意見齁那我們針對於第二到第十四案說出第一幕一般行政的部分凍結10%請綜合提針對委員的一個疑問提出書面報告使得動之好其中第五案改成主決議"},{"start":10269.481,"end":10273.449,"text":"對好接下來翻到下一頁我們處理15到21案第二幕鐵道業務總共經費是29"},{"start":10279.81,"end":10300.902,"text":"二十九億九千四百六十七萬餘元。還有幾位委員提案。好,陳書燁在後面。好,謝謝主席。那本席提的是第19案。那我們知道現在國內有很多的這個鐵道建設正在規劃或者是在執行。那我們希望就是說在這個重大的鐵道建設的"},{"start":10301.862,"end":10328.645,"text":"此行的過程我們鐵道局應該要落實公安因為我們的明年度的編列預算裡面其中業務也包括辦理落實安慰管理措施降低職災發生達到公安零事故這樣子一個目標那因為我們看到在這幾年也有發生了幾次的公安的意外所以本席在這邊希望鐵道局能夠逐案檢討事故發生的原因"},{"start":10329.625,"end":10339.67,"text":"確實落實公安零事故零災害的目標,所以我是提凍結預算一千萬元的凍結案,然後提出書面報告後,使得動之。謝謝。"},{"start":10341.078,"end":10369.316,"text":"好,接下來請何欣淳委員好,謝謝昭緯那個預算雖然我沒提案但是連署基本上我都會支持因為這裡都是補助給地方的但是我要請教一下局長那個我關心的我們台中的那個烏日大慶的一個那個鐵路高架化的部分那是我我們一直很關心也是最後一里路高架化工程的最後一里路那現在到底跟台中市政府協調談得怎麼樣"},{"start":10371.291,"end":10371.591,"text":"好,謝謝何委員。"},{"start":10401.069,"end":10415.542,"text":"好,發言委員已經發言完畢齁那您這個簡單說明一下這個業務的話主要辦理什麼事?跟趙偉還有各位報告這個鐵道業務齁其實是鐵道局今年天上掉下來的禮物啦這是台鐵常在基金1700億的利息負擔啦"},{"start":10418.084,"end":10444.567,"text":"所以這個部分真的是沒辦法砍因為就是1700億要付的利息的錢就是在這一項業務裡面去做支出所以我們一年要付的利息大概就是29億多這裡面淋雨的款項非常非常少只有幾十萬好像800萬左右是我們處理這一項業務的這個費用所以是不是懇請這個召委還有各位委員這一邊這一項是不是讓我們提出書面報告把它說明清楚就好"},{"start":10444.967,"end":10452.271,"text":"如果凍結的話可能也會影響到我們付給銀行的這個利息的這樣的一個進度是不是 這個懇請各位委員來支持 謝謝可是沒有凍結你也不用提全部改組決議啊這麼嚴重嗎新增的業務是是是是"},{"start":10474.905,"end":10475.986,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":10498.803,"end":10506.047,"text":"第15到21案第二幕鐵道業務的部分,提案委員的提案均改為主決議。好,如果各位沒有意見接下來處理第22到第26案。"},{"start":10526.172,"end":10540.462,"text":"第三目國家鐵道建設與管理林國春委員再來林俊憲委員我本來是凍結我本席提22跟23本來是凍結30%跟20%現在就由主席去裁定凍結少一點也可以林俊憲委員"},{"start":10551.232,"end":10579.262,"text":"現在主席本席提第二十四案是關於我們鐵道局國家鐵道建設與管理這個編了兩億六千多萬但這其中有一項業務就是鐵道工程管理的一般行政性的管理包括法案的制定我想了解一下鐵道局照理講你們應該趕快參考國際鐵道安全規範訂定監理的法規比如說一些安全的標準或建立措施但是這個草案"},{"start":10580.402,"end":10584.023,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":10610.899,"end":10617.6,"text":"好,謝謝李委員來這個目使用的方向鐵道局說明一下"},{"start":10619.552,"end":10647.692,"text":"跟召委還有各位委員報告本項這個科目用的是我們四個工程分局的基本的維持費用那剛剛軍縣委員所關切的這個邊坡規範我們經過努力已經在今年12月18號已經交通部定班實施了各個鐵路機構都應該要就邊坡管理的部分按照我們這樣的安全標準包括邊坡要到更上層來做管理還有告警系統的建置等等"},{"start":10648.532,"end":10671.498,"text":"這個規範已經下去,那明年開始我們會加強做這個部分相關的監理跟檢查的工作,謝謝。好,那針對於這個木,不過我是建議一下,因為這個工程管理費,工程管理費你在發包的時候留下一定的%因為你們工程的經費都非常多,我是在這裡先提醒也建議一下,你們這工程"},{"start":10672.518,"end":10697.487,"text":"管理費不會上這個預算你們真的要好好運用啊聽說請了多少人啊然後去做什麼事啊這個部分工程管理費的部分你們自己要管理好好不好那針對這個第三步國家鐵道建設與管理的部分我們就採凍結10%提書面報告使得動之各位有沒有不同意見沒有好那我們繼續"},{"start":10700.818,"end":10706.065,"text":"處理二十九到三十九案第四目鐵公路重要交通工程李崑祖委員好久沒講話了講一下先副委員"},{"start":10719.578,"end":10737.268,"text":"謝謝主席那我提的第32到35案都是我們屏東現在重大的交通建設這個是希望我們鐵道局能夠這個能夠加快來辦理那第32案是針對我們的高鐵南沿屏東這個案子"},{"start":10737.768,"end":10745.036,"text":"稍後星期六行政院長正式宣布採取高雄方案,但本席擔心施工期程與地方溝通會拉長太多時間。為了確保高鐵南延屏東案子能順利推動,我們希望"},{"start":10759.392,"end":10760.472,"text":"三、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、"},{"start":10782.837,"end":10805.972,"text":"第四案的部分是有關於這個潮州道訪寮地區這個目前是單軌化的一個鐵道那車輛調度的困難性跟班次的減少那造成我們的鄉親使用的不方便那所以我們要求鐵道局能夠加快推動潮州道訪寮這個鐵路雙軌化的一個期程然後也是一樣要求提出一個書面報告時的動機"},{"start":10808.214,"end":10824.894,"text":"第三十五案是針對我們訪寮火車站一個大平台的一個計畫那這部分因為整個鐵道局規劃的期程要預估到九年那本期是認為太過冗長而且對於這個地方的這個交通的改善的這個速度太慢"},{"start":10825.435,"end":10829.799,"text":"議員提出書面報告,使得動之。以上說明,謝謝。好,李坤哲委員。謝謝昭偉。第三十案,請鐵道局要說明一下。鐵道局捷運建設計畫,它的預算是編列190億元。"},{"start":10852.438,"end":10876.397,"text":"那這個部分主要是針對未來台鐵要興建一些車站我認為是應該要先將是否要裝設月台門要進行規劃就是說你避免反覆的施工所以我提凍結一千萬那一個月內針對鐵道興建車站工程裝設月台門的可行性要提出書面的報告"},{"start":10877.699,"end":10882.539,"text":"現在整個作者都要做月台門,又重複施工。以上"},{"start":10884.909,"end":10909.297,"text":"好,謝謝各位委員那我個人提的是第37案啦只是說這個硬體建設的一般我們都不會去要去砍或者凍結那最主要這一條332萬5000元是這個媒體政策及業務宣導費啦我們也在想說到底在宣導什麼因為這一條費用的話在看到112年有編但是沒有執行,執行率是0"},{"start":10910.397,"end":10920.382,"text":"今年根本沒有編列明年就跳出來332萬所以我在想說如果要宣導什麼麻煩可能要說明一下鐵道局回覆"},{"start":10928.261,"end":10947.731,"text":"寶貴的意見,我逐項來做一個報告。剛剛徐副委員所提到的各項建設,包括雙軌的部分,仿寮到潮州,現在有一段就是南州到林邊的地方已經是雙軌。"},{"start":10948.832,"end":10973.308,"text":"那潮州到南州然後林邊到仿寮我們已經放在南回鐵路改善的這個計畫裡面現在正在報可行性研究我們會加速來做後面的一些處理那剛剛副委員也有提到就是高鐵延伸的這個案子我想為了加速屏東端的相關的建設跟鄉親的有感我們已經報給交通部同意就是六塊錯"},{"start":10974.429,"end":10977.511,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":10990.322,"end":11010.789,"text":"剛剛還有提到平南其他的一些鐵路建設計畫我想我們中道委員的提示會來做加速這個騎乘的一些推動至於剛剛我們李昆哲委員所提示的我們非常認同就是月台門的這個設置在未來的興建的鐵路車站裡面應該要列為標配"},{"start":11012.169,"end":11024.823,"text":"現在應該就是台鐵公司正在就第一個事辦的這樣的一個計畫來去做辦理當中如果他們這個事辦計畫完成相關的建制標準跟工程設施的一些規範的時候我們會納在我們後續的鐵路建設計畫裡面"},{"start":11028.647,"end":11028.667,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":11052.739,"end":11079.991,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11080.091,"end":11081.872,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算"},{"start":11107.139,"end":11108.219,"text":"稍後李昆德委員"},{"start":11125.45,"end":11139.542,"text":"台鐵當然這些車站就分特等站、一等站、二等站還有檢疫站、招募站你不是說每個車站都有必要去裝設一個檯門就是針對比較有需要的這些來先做規劃以及通盤的一個檢討以上"},{"start":11144.301,"end":11163.159,"text":"好那針對於第四幕我們已經做了這個蠻多的討論那我這邊還是建議一下我們局長還有次長要拜託一下因為你這個因為你們所謂公務類的這個媒體的宣傳業務宣傳會不會常常到網路來罵我"},{"start":11164.961,"end":11166.022,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":11183.556,"end":11209.437,"text":"如果你們這種沒捐費用就說我全部要完成了搞了個25年了10年了我才幫你宣傳一次你說真的我們不管是北中南各區大家都很很辛苦啊包括我們像屏東徐副委員都讓我們去解釋我建議是說你這如果你們可以答應的話我這刪除100萬我可以不刪啦就你也要幫我們宣傳一下桃園你們現在鐵路地下化是你在做嘛"},{"start":11210.057,"end":11210.357,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":11225.191,"end":11225.711,"text":"adequate"},{"start":11255.131,"end":11256.131,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":11283.072,"end":11302.823,"text":"一百九十億一千三百四十萬元這個我看了一下除了剛剛沒宣3.1百萬各位委員都沒有都是提凍結案那這樣好不好因為我覺得很多的剛剛委員的提案還是要你們書面精確的做答覆這整個的部分我們就凍結10%提供書面再來解凍這樣可以嗎好"},{"start":11312.048,"end":11316.836,"text":"好,接下來我們處理決議案。主決議號40到第45案。請各位翻開第40頁,第40案。"},{"start":11326.141,"end":11335.069,"text":"第40案照案通過第41案照案通過第42案照案通過第43案照案通過第44案照案通過第45案照案通過鐵道局預算處理"},{"start":11353.547,"end":11371.805,"text":"完畢齁然後還有基金嘛是不是好接下來還是原班人馬嘛不用換場好請各位委員拿出鐵這個叫什麼鐵道發展基金114年度副屬單位預算建議併案及預算表"},{"start":11410.37,"end":11426.079,"text":"好我們這個主案開始審查首先第一案到第18案業務費用的部分總共有18案好那有沒有委員要普通說明好學富貴委員陳樹葉召委"},{"start":11432.199,"end":11432.479,"text":"韓國瑜議員韓國瑜議員韓國瑜議員"},{"start":11452.339,"end":11474.301,"text":"第8案,我們屏東縣因為沿海鄉鎮的地勢低挖,尤其是鐵道的周邊形成一個很大的治水障礙。所以本期這邊也要求鐵道局應該加快我們加東道訪寮的全線高架化的雙軌工程,也要完善我們這個區域排水的一個改善。所以針對這個"},{"start":11476.303,"end":11495.815,"text":"第11案有鑑於輕軌系統國產化的比例比較偏低我們也希望能夠加快執行的量能所以針對專業服務費的部分本席提出凍結10%經過溝通了所以請鐵道局再提出相關的宿命計畫使得凍結。謝謝陳書瑋、張偉接下來林國誠委員"},{"start":11506.236,"end":11514.162,"text":"謝謝主席本席提第13案就是針對我們這個鐵道基金他的明年度的預算數優費用這個6億2846萬元其中有要補助這個政府機關就是這個鐵道"},{"start":11524.029,"end":11526.771,"text":"因應機構建置5G智慧鐵道等設備的6千萬元的預算。"},{"start":11555.132,"end":11560.862,"text":"好接下來發言順序黃建華委員再來林國成委員李昆哲委員"},{"start":11563.161,"end":11567.524,"text":"十四、繼續審查十四年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":11592.921,"end":11594.142,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":11612.415,"end":11614.817,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算"},{"start":11634.15,"end":11634.23,"text":"二、繼續審查"},{"start":11653.046,"end":11653.667,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":11675.945,"end":11691.856,"text":"我剛剛講第一件事就是我是希望鐵道局能夠擔負相關責任第二件事就是經費如果你真的要第一個階段要做所謂地方的道路規劃設計的話經費上應該要給台中政府再多一點不能只有目前給100這樣子的這個實在說不過去以上"},{"start":11695.884,"end":11712.936,"text":"林國成委員本席提的是第17案、第18案基本上這個是補助單位我說實在的局長你應該很清楚從113年到現在執行率都只有40%補助給人家錢"},{"start":11716.567,"end":11736.039,"text":"但是人家還消耗不了還要回繳執行率只有40%到最高60%所以這個部分我會刪減其原因從11年到11年這三年當中平均不到五成"},{"start":11737.36,"end":11743.244,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":11753.275,"end":11772.043,"text":"錢給人家人家還不要就代表什麼政策有問題所以還是可以繼續給沒錯把這種執行力要把它提高原因出在哪邊收服給交通委員會的委員不是說給錢有效果那當然我們樂觀其成我們全力支持"},{"start":11772.563,"end":11784.031,"text":"但是你給錢執行率只有40還不到6成那就非常嚴重啊那就是政策有問題執行有問題所以請局長說明一下"},{"start":11785.011,"end":11802.677,"text":"好接下來柳崑澤委員再來是何新成委員剛才林國成委員所提這個鐵道局啊楊局長必須要清楚的說明當然這個鐵道發展基金他主要經費來源是來自於政府的預算"},{"start":11803.397,"end":11830.732,"text":"然後高鐵的盈餘以及高鐵的平穩機制裝護相關的這些都是主要的經費來源那也希望你們針對相關鐵道產業的發展路網的規劃相關鐵道路網的規劃這都是主要的這些任務了那你們相關補助這些鐵道產業團體或是相關的這些補助執行率不佳這個必須要清楚的說明"},{"start":11831.312,"end":11850.765,"text":"另外我是針對第二案我們的業務費用編的7億9785萬那鐵道監理當然是鐵道局重要的業務了但是我們來看包括台鐵高鐵相關的行車事故或者是行車的事件發生的次數"},{"start":11851.866,"end":11862.682,"text":"其實並沒有明顯改善那鐵道局作為監理單位是責無旁貸應該要加強督促這些鐵道安全我是提凍結預算一千萬提書面報告後解凍"},{"start":11867.328,"end":11887.357,"text":"另外是第九案我們的委託調查研究費考量鐵道發展及監理是鐵道局的核心工作應該要就相關的計畫如何促進鐵道發展及監理業務的具體成效要相加說明這個我提凍結預算100萬提書面報告後解凍"},{"start":11891.966,"end":11897.212,"text":"另外是第15案就是捐助國內團體剛才所提的這個編列預算4億1228萬那用途是捐助辦理輕軌系統的自主提升計畫還有鐵道產業研發檢測的發展計畫"},{"start":11909.305,"end":11910.906,"text":"接下來請何欣淳委員"},{"start":11931.302,"end":11944.596,"text":"雖然我的體驗是在22的一個主決議我沒有凍結因為預算我都支持但是同樣的我也在關心我們台中高鐵這個周遭的一個交通的問題"},{"start":11946.938,"end":11971.669,"text":"現在先不要管娛樂城正在施工當中高鐵周遭都已經是交通打劫相對的當時候的設計規劃的道路系統我覺得應該還可以再更精進要更精進當然需要中央地方大家一起來合作我提出一個想法第一個想法是說高鐵周遭的一個系統"},{"start":11972.529,"end":11975.932,"text":"1、繼續審查2、繼續審查3、繼續審查4、繼續審查5、繼續審查6、繼續審查7、繼續審查8、繼續審查9、繼續審查10、繼續審查11、繼續審查12、繼續審查13、繼續審查14、繼續審查15、繼續審查16、繼續審查17、繼續審查18、繼續審查19、繼續審查20、繼續審查21、繼續審查22、繼續審查23、繼續審查24、繼續審查24、繼續審查25、繼續審查26、繼續審查27、繼續審查29、繼續審查30、繼續審查30、繼續審查30、繼續審查30、繼續審查30、繼續審查30、繼續審查30、繼續審查30、繼續審查30、"},{"start":11987.902,"end":12014.257,"text":"是不是也應該來提點提醒台中市政府對於這個平面道路尤其當時候在核定這個台中的這個所謂的那個什麼亞洲最大的娛樂購物城那在核定他們的建造的時候事實上在相關的行政程序裡面核定建造之前一定要要求那個新建的這個業主要提出相關的這個未來疏解交通平面交通的一個計劃"},{"start":12015.658,"end":12042.511,"text":"而那個計畫我雖然不是專業不過以目前看起來如果包括地方政府包括我們所有的民意代表都在講說那個娛樂城新建之後一定那裡會更塞會更嗨那表示他所提出來的當時候有申請建造所附帶提出來的那個平面交通的一個輸運計畫是不是有待商榷是不是應該還可以更好"},{"start":12043.691,"end":12063.557,"text":"獲得的專業評估做得不夠好。我覺得我們中央地方應該共同去檢視第一個娛樂城新建的業主本身該負擔起什麼樣的責任在第一個這個交通安全不是只有他是所有乘客包括要進去娛樂城的這些客戶大家所有的人的一個安全的問題"},{"start":12068.658,"end":12090.271,"text":"第二個因為台中高鐵是三鐵共購包括台鐵包括高鐵包括捷運這個也都是中央跟地方大家一起合作因為我相信娛樂城當時候在申請建造的時候到底有沒有把三鐵共購的一個輸運計畫他們有沒有納入在他們的一個交通計畫裡面我不知道"},{"start":12092.491,"end":12116.117,"text":"數運的這個成效到底能夠達到多少的成效這個就是我們中央地方要努力的剛剛黃建豪委員也有提到這個是三鐵公共裡面台鐵、高鐵跟捷運各有各的責任必須要去因應面對未來會更加嚴重堵塞的這個高鐵周遭的一個交通的問題第三個才是中央委之前在委員會也質詢過"},{"start":12117.777,"end":12118.318,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查"},{"start":12136.981,"end":12149.51,"text":"新建完成之後那未來的人潮輸運如何透過高速公路跟快速道路74號線我必須再提醒一下那個國道1號現在已經很嚴重的塞車74號上下班時間也很嚴重的塞車了那"},{"start":12155.214,"end":12171.469,"text":"未來如何因應跟疏解是不是要有再評估再興建第二環線或是其他的一個國公路快速道路的需求我覺得這個都是在我們中央跟地方大家一起要合作去因應的啦因為時間很快他那個娛樂城聽說兩三年之後就要完工啟用"},{"start":12177.875,"end":12192.142,"text":""},{"start":12194.554,"end":12223.477,"text":"好 謝謝何委員那我個人也有提幾個案子那第一案最主要是因為鐵道局也是我們整個鐵道包括鐵路的一個監管監理機關那近年來台鐵這個事故我們覺得不管大橋事故有增加的一個幅度我們是希望能夠積極督促所以這個部分我們是提凍結希望能夠明確了解你未來的一些督導的一個方案"},{"start":12224.498,"end":12248.169,"text":"第五案的一個部分是這個旅費的部分那我這個部分也是凍結啦因為希望你們能夠說清楚第十案的部分剛剛有委員已經說過了就是看到你們有在編列輕軌耗資自主提升計畫那這個部分的經費的部分但我們看到113年你在整個的一個"},{"start":12249.52,"end":12272.114,"text":"公告徵求申請業務跟研發期程似乎不如預期雖然你們最後講說已經完成了41項這個未來到底要落實在哪裡除了高雄目前是輕軌接下來下一個要落實的城市是哪一個可能要說明一下這個部分我本來有提刪除我們可以改凍結最後一個是第16"},{"start":12273.975,"end":12291.155,"text":"第十六案我真的有個感觸剛剛看到這個鐵道局你們本身的預算真的不管多少預算都是紮紮實實的那都是很清楚的要做一些硬體的建設"},{"start":12292.136,"end":12292.636,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":12308.726,"end":12309.186,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":12337.759,"end":12338.159,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":12364.269,"end":12370.534,"text":" bicyclone在哪裡去做一個實踐還是永遠在一個小領域去做一個實踐我倒是覺得我還是那個話題就說因為國車國造我們在電聯車的部分94年98年都是我們台灣的車廠有去造"},{"start":12379.701,"end":12396.834,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":12397.079,"end":12397.179,"text":"二、繼續審查"},{"start":12414.585,"end":12429.324,"text":"但是你現在要怎麼辦要怎麼樣去介入這個市場然後有沒有這樣一個成熟這個部分還是每一年只花這個研究的費用好不好那請鐵道局來說明一下謝謝昭和還有各位我想就先就剛剛"},{"start":12430.145,"end":12430.765,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":12458.4,"end":12474.062,"text":"按照交通部的這個科技產業的政策進行這些補助工作的時候我必須要做法規的建制也就是補助要點等等這些東西因為他不是這個這個過去就有的案子然後他也不是按照採購法"},{"start":12475.424,"end":12479.267,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":12491.276,"end":12500.561,"text":"現在113到114我們已經在114就會有成果這幾個案子最主要有六大次系統包括車輛軌道車輛的車門系統大家可能無法想像我們連車門都不會做過去"},{"start":12507.846,"end":12531.306,"text":"緊電工、轉向架、轉測器、輕軌耗製等等。我們還有記軸器,總共有6個次系統,就是這些案子在研發當中。現在陸續在113年底到114年中,最晚到115年都會有產品,也就是實際的產品,它不是產出報告,它是實際產出這一個轉測器去研發出來。"},{"start":12534.949,"end":12563.766,"text":"那我們也在西東捷運跟基隆捷運這兩個案子裡面呢因為是最近的這個案子要求主辦的機關新北市政府捷運工程局納入所謂的約定項目也就是未來的同胞商他必須要用我們國家所生產的轉測器車門跟集電工那最近的訊息就是轉測器已經跟新得標的這個廠商呢已經達成共識就會用到我們的系統上面來了"},{"start":12564.446,"end":12578.477,"text":"所以我想這個是我們逐步逐步要去做發展至於剛剛趙偉特別提到了這些中運量甚至高運量的耗資系統坦白跟大家報告我們現在是小學生所以輕軌耗資是第一個入門的門檻"},{"start":12580.238,"end":12587.082,"text":"輕軌耗資我們也在補助研發當中分三階段來做這真的是一個困難跟複雜的工作我想這個我要懇請林國成委員跟趙偉給我們支持這些研發案從111年走到現在我們陸續要開花結果"},{"start":12598.809,"end":12623.106,"text":"那後面的這些成果呢我想我們可以透過書面報告來跟各位委員說明清楚那懇請各位委員這個預算給我們支持凍結百分之十我們來做完整的書面報告如果有必要我也可以到各位委員辦公室做完整的口頭的這個報告跟說明回到剛剛其他委員的這個意見首先是徐副國委員所提的有關這個屏東的幾個軌道建設案我們一定會"},{"start":12627.009,"end":12628.711,"text":"二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":12651.539,"end":12674.379,"text":"事實上我們在做的是智慧鐵道但是高鐵沿線的這個通訊的這個環境4G跟5G過去我們是曾經努力過讓他們去把基地台去建置起來我想這個我們會來督促高鐵公司把這一塊的部分做得更好那其實協助的是六大電信業者而不是高鐵公司就那些基地台是電信業者在做建置的"},{"start":12675.46,"end":12702.275,"text":"這是不是坑村委員我們做一些文字修正我們在後面提書面報告來跟委員做報告其次是剛剛提到的台中黃健老委員跟何欣存委員跟兩位委員報告其實何欣存委員講到一個蠻關鍵的核心也就是說這個開發案在做督設審的時候照理說交通計畫應該是通過核定的"},{"start":12703.035,"end":12723.718,"text":"好那台中這個案子在我們新竹跟桃園都不一樣新竹跟桃園交通的周遭的這個停車場也好道路動線也好等等等等合定就合定了現在就照這樣做台中復雜到太復雜所以當初合定的時候呢有兩個考量也就是第一個我們這個合約是五年內要完成第一期的開發"},{"start":12724.839,"end":12739.932,"text":"所以如果要等我們把這些交通的複雜問題通通討論完恐怕已經會沒有辦法達成這個5年的期程目標所以當初在做督修省合定的時候就給了一個條件就是地區道路跟周邊的這些高快速公路的連結呢"},{"start":12742.554,"end":12763.646,"text":"請後續去做專案的研究處理所以才會是由我們的開發商提供了700萬的經費給台中市政府交通局來做這一個評估評估的結果該改善的屬於廠商該改善的或是屬於政府該去做的其他的這些道路建設我們就按照這個來做我想這個背景是這樣子那剛剛黃建豪委員特別關切"},{"start":12764.927,"end":12772.574,"text":"我們是不是700萬丟出來就不管事了?我想沒有啦後來就是在幾位委員的指導底下我們11月17號交通部鐵道局已經成立了這個臺中車站這個開發區的這個交通改善評估平台由我們副局長親自主持"},{"start":12782.023,"end":12784.565,"text":"一、繼續審查一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查九、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、繼續審查十五、"},{"start":12810.238,"end":12828.382,"text":"經討論卻有必要,我想鐵道局會來協助跟支持後續相關的部分。我想這個是台中的部分,我們也深刻體驗到這個案子因為它的整個地理條件,兩個鐵路加上一個高速公路,把這個特定區剛好框在一個三角形的區域裡面,相對來講交通問題確實是複雜。"},{"start":12830.703,"end":12831.224,"text":"adequate to the"},{"start":12845.333,"end":12867.481,"text":"所以我想大概剛剛的部分我應該都有跟大家報告到了那是不是懇請委員這個部分的相關預算其實我們在做的真的都不是研究案都是扎實的其中有一個研究案是我們補助運營所做研究案就跟剛剛前面的討論希望運營所的研究結果跟我們實務執行有扣合"},{"start":12868.021,"end":12894.954,"text":"例如大家關切我們的這個林軌施工的安全所以我們今年補助運營所350萬就在這個預算裡面請他幫我們研究工程安全管理系統那其實我們已經在推那這個就是我們業務單位跟研究單位這個合作的一個模式我想以上大概先做這樣的一個補充報告懇請各位委員在這個部分是給我們凍結然後提出書院報告那謝謝大家的支持謝謝"},{"start":12898.226,"end":12900.127,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、"},{"start":12926.255,"end":12947.522,"text":"高鐵站區聯外道路系統改善計畫是民國96年以前的計畫,已經執行完了。就所有5個車站總共應該是有42項的這個聯外道路改善計畫,在台中站不知道是哪幾條我現在意思記不起來,像我們桃園站的大竹交流道、橋下道路都是當時這個計畫所做的。"},{"start":12950.244,"end":12969.104,"text":"現在編的1.2億是因應雲嘉南地區的地層下限當時因為地層下限所以我們現在每年有補助1億多的經費去協助農業部把高鐵沿線的這些抽取地下水的這些農民"},{"start":12970.385,"end":12997.58,"text":"讓他不要抽地下水而去改做比較旱作的這樣的一個職務所以這個一點而已並不是在做這個道路工程改善的工作這是為了高鐵的一個安全性的問題是是是為了高鐵的這個地層下限的安全性而持續補助減少抽取地下水的這樣的一個功這個經費用途是這樣所以如果台中站未來我們討論完之後有需要做道路改善的我想我們會循公路建設的程序再來去跟這個相關機關做協調跟爭取"},{"start":12999.361,"end":13011.447,"text":"對啦,中央一定支持啦,好不好?建豪委員,我們就處理啦,好不好?我們主計,主計是陳主委員在哪裡?陳主委員請教一下,我們這個針對我們匯費捐助補助,這個4億1的部分,這個向下,113年目前執行率多少?"},{"start":13025.134,"end":13037.231,"text":"就今年的113年,113年編了4.48億嘛齁,那目前11月,11月執行率多少?我們報告跟,稍微報告,我們大概預估到年底的執行率大概是75%"},{"start":13040.88,"end":13055.786,"text":"好 謝謝你因為你給我到11月以前的質詢率是43%因為有時候我們在審預算你總是要給我們講一些道理我看到委員會委員都很講道理就是說錢根本不夠用那已經用到95%98%我說真的啦我們也說不過去啦不敢問"},{"start":13059.768,"end":13085.997,"text":"我現在拿到11月大概資金率不到5就這個喔你要捐給別人叫別人去做資金率不到4乘3那你講說好到了月底到12月我們會到達7成那7成大概還有1億多沒有用嘛大概1億3就是在今年的預算錢帳未清嘛你消化不了我覺得你消化系統啊要確定沒有問題我們才可以足量的食物丟進去不然我後年消化也是有問題啦"},{"start":13087.057,"end":13102.484,"text":"那我真的我個人給你一個建議現在真的我們有聽說希望不是真的有些國產是台皮外骨台皮啊什麼叫台皮不是啤酒的皮啊"},{"start":13103.084,"end":13103.484,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":13129.701,"end":13131.241,"text":"五、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及所屬單位預算"},{"start":13160.107,"end":13177.978,"text":"現在剛剛跟大家報告的車門及電工轉測器等等都進入最後研發階段正在做測試驗證的工作那因為我們的補助要點這個經費的撥付當初我們同仁相對保守所以所列的這個撥款條件都非常嚴苛變成是研發機構自己電經費在做這些檢測驗證的工作"},{"start":13182.18,"end":13206.791,"text":" ﹏並不是這些經費撥不出去﹏我們說他要測試通過才能夠停到我的經費﹏但是測試過程中光一個轉向架的測試經費達3000萬﹏所以這個我想懇請委員支持這個確實都會發生而且這6個案子我剛剛跟召委報告也就是說我們都不是在做那一種苔皮外骨的工作"},{"start":13208.152,"end":13235.023,"text":"最終的成果是希望這些團隊就是國內軌道系統的解決方案的團隊因為他做了一個集電工做了一個車門之後並不是這個門就能夠賣給各個車型啊我們以前的問題都在於說我們沒有人可以去改變這一些設計或者是方向OK啦是那這樣好不好就是再補助這個向下了好不好這個向下其他你業務費很忙嘛沒有意見啦就這個4億"},{"start":13236.824,"end":13258.554,"text":"一千多萬我們3.1千萬好不好就是希望說你們執行力可以整個跟上嘛就如同你說如果他就願收不合格你不用付錢嘛我覺得也有可能也有可能願不過了好不好根本不用錢三、五百萬OK啦三、五百萬凍結10%請你詳細提供書面說明好不好好各位有沒有意見"},{"start":13264.076,"end":13282.38,"text":"好沒意見我再朗讀一下針對於1到18案業務費用整體來說我們不要整體啦就是針對於這個哪個項架就針對於業務費用匯費捐助補助分攤救助與交流活動費然後項架的捐助補助獎助"},{"start":13294.889,"end":13295.369,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查"},{"start":13316.115,"end":13333.053,"text":"十九萬不是屏東的嗎?我是屏東人,但是就事論事。現在案子定了沒有?因為有一個高雄跟屏東的這個案子。因為我這個當然是一定要支持啦。但是現在編會不會太早?"},{"start":13333.954,"end":13334.294,"text":"徐富奎委員"},{"start":13356.905,"end":13375.477,"text":"謝謝主席那我想我們林國琛委員也是來自屏東我相信他一定會支持屏東的重大交通建設那所以這個案子我想這個上個禮拜六我們行政院長也正式核定了我們這個高雄方案那這個屏東的鄉親都很期待我們高鐵能夠盡快完成規劃"},{"start":13376.337,"end":13378.058,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":13392.286,"end":13418.039,"text":"這個部分因為尤其這個案子跟我們的這個一個高鐵的一個方案並不一樣這是屬於一個屏東車站的一個特定區的一個區段徵收的一個計畫那我想我們也希望鐵道局能夠同步來進行把這個相關的徵收的期程跟開發的一個期程能夠加快來辦理所以我想是不是提議來凍結10%然後提出書面報告之後再來解凍我們盡快來加速這個案子的推動"},{"start":13419.799,"end":13445.187,"text":"謝謝徐委員這個是存錢的概念是吧?因為長城計畫明年先存33億是不是這種概念?你說明一下跟林國成委員還有徐國文報告高鐵屏東車站特定區計畫不是高鐵延伸屏東建設計畫這是另外一個計畫當初這個計畫抱怨核定就是這個期程按照這個期程再去做後續的進行"},{"start":13446.247,"end":13470.145,"text":"當然這裡面涉及到區段徵收的一些補償費可能我們還要再去努力就是說在現在的情況底下我們還要再做一些確認到底是不是明年有辦法來做執行但是這個因為其實代表了極高度的一個政府對於這個屏東案的這個政策上面的這個意涵所以是啦是啦"},{"start":13472.25,"end":13499.901,"text":"平東車站特定區這個真的已經現在都在做相關的開放因為它有科技部、經濟部等等是這樣好不好我想這個部分尊重我們在地立委不過就是剛剛講說不要穿就凍結的方式麻煩說明一下因為我知道就是不管從哪一線來我們的平東的站區是不變的我懂那你能不能稍微說明一下順便說明之後使得動之"},{"start":13503.871,"end":13504.572,"text":"好,第20到第21案"},{"start":13512.02,"end":13535.431,"text":"因為你們在編譯算有時候也寫不太清楚那這個部分應該也要把它講清楚因為本席因為看不清楚以後說實在的就會產生這種認為沒有必要所以還是要把它講清楚那我同意前述30的部分用凍結的方式來解決"},{"start":13537.433,"end":13554.793,"text":"鐵道局稍微說明一下簡單跟我們報告這個電纜槽其實是我們高鐵沿線的軌道旁邊我們在建設的時候就留下來了但是它留下來是一個空房子那我現在在做裝潢其實我在做一個支架做一個支架讓電纜可以放在上面我並不是在做這個電纜"},{"start":13556.834,"end":13572.478,"text":"但是這個計畫已經執行到第四年我們現在到現在為止已經布好的地方有國內的相關電信業者進來使用我們的電纜槽的這個支架布他的光纖網路我們113年收到的租金就6900萬了那這個計畫我們執行到114年是最終1900多萬1900多"},{"start":13579.602,"end":13580.422,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查"},{"start":13602.383,"end":13621.901,"text":"好,針對於第20到21案固定資產建設改良擴充向下的一般建築及設備計畫交通及運輸設備相關預算凍結10%提供書面報告使得動之各位有沒有其他意見沒有其他意見,好,接下來處理決議案請各位翻到第22案"},{"start":13644.93,"end":13661.966,"text":"第二十二案鐵道局 辦理照案通過第二十三案 遵照辦理二十三案照案通過二十四案 遵照辦理二十四案照案通過二十五案 遵照辦理二十五案照案通過二十六案 遵照辦理二十六案照案通過二十七案 遵照辦理"},{"start":13662.714,"end":13664.415,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二十八案。"},{"start":13689.076,"end":13691.057,"text":"二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查二、繼續審查"},{"start":13726.345,"end":13753.08,"text":"好,謝謝各位所有的與會夥伴我們目前協商完畢做以下宣告一、今日協商結論免於宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄第二、委員要求提供的書面資料及相關書面報告及相關資料請相關機關盡速以書面答覆第三、如有委員對提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":13754.838,"end":13755.402,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":13760.828,"end":13781.722,"text":"好我這邊先這個補充宣告一下因為剛剛在鐵道基金的部分第19案沒有把這個宣讀念清楚我再念一遍第19案涉及開發工程長期投資向下的高速鐵路屏東車站特定區區段徵收開發計畫凍結10%提書面報告使得動之"},{"start":13792.827,"end":13812.183,"text":"好,針對於本日會議做以下決議一、本日預算審查結果照列、佔照列或照協商結論通過第二、本日通過的決議文字授權主席及議事人員調整第三、114年度運安會"},{"start":13814.71,"end":13831.911,"text":"交通部運援所鐵道局及所屬鐵道發展基金預算均審查完畢請問各位委員對於以上覺悟有沒有意義沒有意義我們通過現在休息禮拜四上午9點繼續開會各位新年快樂"},{"start":13842.307,"end":13843.309,"text":"三、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查"}]}},{"id":"158522","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158522","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0b90e01457d4315e94f10c035d50fc6485ada2b19569a09cc4b664da36d5803b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:09:57 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這個案子在相關今年2月1號本新國會成立之後我們就跟財政部講財劃法我們修訂了而且我們會提案對吧部長版本早就提出來了而且要你們在上個會期告訴你們下個會期提出來請你們提版本不提"},{"start":146.807,"end":167.463,"text":"我們不是不提,而是我們認為要進一步在座討論因為起標的部分我們也沒有後續要討論的你們的版本就是最好的版本你們的版本就是不要再提版本這次你們在吵的東西有兩個我們民眾黨的版本很清楚第一個,我們非常忠信我們去計算你們的稅收稅率的剩餘大概2000多億不到3000億第二個,我們給你們很大的彈性是用分配委員會"},{"start":173.268,"end":187.775,"text":"第三個我們在這次修法修正動議的時候我們講得很清楚條文施行的日期我們給你們一年以後但是民進黨團支持民眾黨的版本現在在鬼扯這些都是我們版本裡面就提出來的"},{"start":189.281,"end":211.169,"text":"我們希望用分配委員會讓財政部繼續保有調節的功能第二個有關施行的日期我們認為一年之後施行可以民眾黨團從頭到尾就非常的理性民進黨團寧可不同民眾黨的版本也要挑釁立法院然後現在在說我要重編施行日期有問題我要重編"},{"start":213.089,"end":215.99,"text":"所以部長不要再告訴我們說你們不知道相關的內容了這樣的行為就叫做放話就叫做要挾"},{"start":232.588,"end":243.196,"text":"另外主計處你們的報告裡面寫說要刪掉八項八大項的預算28%影響然後要有7000多億請問你現在釋出的是幾千億3000多億不是嗎你為什麼要砍到7000多億"},{"start":250.083,"end":275.046,"text":"明明是三千多億的你說要砍七千多億不是放話不是要寫是什麼你現在告訴我受影響我們釋出你們三千多億結果你告訴我你為什麼七千多億受影響哪門值得受影響有一照三裡面三減百分之二十八主計長我問得簡簡單我們釋出三千多億請問你憑什麼說你影響到七千多億你告訴我答案"},{"start":276.323,"end":276.743,"text":"最嚴重的是再講一次"},{"start":301.545,"end":317.792,"text":"我們說地方自治的事項,你們一直在說事權請問,副秘書長,你們現在研究出哪些事權的法條要修正嗎?地方自治法、稅法通則還是相關的法規,你們盤點出來了沒?哪些法要修?"},{"start":319.347,"end":331.116,"text":"這個部分目前還在處理中還在處理中所以從頭到尾行政院都沒有因應立法院在財政收支劃分法已經進到委員會進到黨團協商進到月長協商你們從來沒有討論過是嗎?從來沒有討論過你市局要怎麼修是嗎?"},{"start":338.165,"end":349.186,"text":"現在才要處理我告訴你這個法我修得很神氣我們一直跟財政部說你說的事權請你說出來請你拿出來我們一起幫你修法"},{"start":350.831,"end":367.134,"text":"一整年都不講半句話現在告訴我說我現在在處理第二個這個法裡面很重要一件事情事權為什麼要分清楚因為中央就是拼命的去舉債弄了潛在預算來搶地方政府該做的事"},{"start":368.598,"end":393.373,"text":"做什麼事?第一個新建停車場、捷運建設、水環靜置水、觀光建設、公有建築物的耐震改善還有重鋪道路這都是地方該做的事你們寧可把權跟錢都放在中央用一個前瞻建設去舉債來幫地方做地方該做的事不給地方錢該做他本來就該做的事把錢全部搶在中央幹什麼?做什麼?我告訴你答案"},{"start":394.895,"end":420.65,"text":"中央來做聖誕老公公啊中央來補助地方的時候都是我給你的啊立法委員就說啊我去中央爭取了多少預算所以你要全票投給我執政黨啊更嚴重的是有一些補助款直接發給民眾的部分裡面的存摺直接寫行政院發啊行政院發才是重點啊綁裝啊地方政府的財劃法去綁裝真正在綁裝的是中央政府而且綁得很嚴重"},{"start":421.994,"end":447.896,"text":"再講一遍該地方做的不做不給他錢做現在潛在預算就是你們搶的地方的事情來做我們只是把該交給地方的權利交給他該地方做的事情交給他現在變好了我們幫你們把中央的錢搶到你什麼事情都不能做了國光獎金不能發了國防預算不能買了不要鬼扯不要放話不要要挾"},{"start":449.966,"end":462.479,"text":"最後一個：副秘書長現在接下去行政院在研究哪些事權要修正OK啊那你們在研究復議的理由了嗎還是公投的理由還是涉嫌的理由"},{"start":463.601,"end":485.442,"text":"也在準備?還是什麼時候要做?因為我們還沒有收到財劃法修正的公文所以目前是內部研議中總統府說他們一定會公布按照程序就是要復議復議就是要送立法院復議的理由還有公民投票的理由還有憲法訴訟的申請我想都是行政院現在正在做的對吧?對"},{"start":486.598,"end":505.21,"text":"第二個我要的是如果你們真的講一直很認真的在講事權請你告訴我也準備好你們正打算修的地方相關的稅法或者是地方制度法哪些文件哪些條文要修的也麻煩請你一併在一個禮拜之內告訴我你們會修哪些可以嗎可以"},{"start":507.605,"end":535.535,"text":"更嚴重的是現在的問題是主計長上次有說因為我們怕給地方很多錢所以地方會亂花主計長我們的主計是不是主計一條邊我們是不是所有的地方主計人員都是由中央指派的是請問你們的主計人員在地方政府是死人嗎亂花錢是你的責任還是地方政府的責任"},{"start":537.202,"end":565.565,"text":"什麼叫做給錢給地方政府亂花錢那主計處、審計部全部是死人是嗎現在是這樣就是說事前第一個你該分到地方沒有分到地方沒有錯地方主計處就是把關者地方的主計人員就是把關者你怕什麼你們該負的責任現在推給說地方會亂花錢所以我主計處不同意主計長啊你們是中央政府還有地方政府預算的把關者"},{"start":567.113,"end":578.758,"text":"我們的主計長講出這種話真是笑死天下人更嚴重的是財政部現在我們現在釋出的是3000多億今年超徵多少億"},{"start":579.977,"end":594.346,"text":"今年真正的數據要等到12月底過完以後大概5000億吧那是全國全國來說上看是這麼多然後中央也多出了3000多億嘛所以不要再說會影響到中央的正式運作我同意但是我們現在要做的是事權要統一我同意趕快修法"},{"start":606.633,"end":626.891,"text":"第二個這個法案通過了他就是有效的法律請你們依法行政最重要的是不要再把該地方做的事情中央搶著去做該給他的事權就好好地給他事權現在地方為了配合你們的前瞻預算是去取債炒地皮賣地來配合你們的自籌款這才是問題最嚴重的是你們用計畫性補助假要求地方政府配合中央的財源"},{"start":635.118,"end":643.988,"text":"這不健康 這非常不健康要求地方政府炒地賣地然後配合自籌款才能夠得到你的計劃性補助款這樣的行為很不健康一直都是這樣計劃性補助款就是這樣所以我們希望"},{"start":653.517,"end":666.352,"text":"財政收支劃分法分得很清楚我們處理的是中央統籌分配稅一般性補助款讓他合情合理名目相符第二個我們不希望中央在以任何的理由用"},{"start":667.472,"end":692.496,"text":"特別預算用錢債預算這種舉債的方式去搶中央去搶地方本來就會做的事然後不要逼著地方去賣地炒地配合你們的自籌款這三件事情最重要就是請副秘書長一個禮拜之內給我你們要修哪些法要怎麼修請告訴我們你們修的狀況跟進度跟接下去你們要做的處置可以嗎副秘書長好要回答麥克風沒有聽到你的聲音"},{"start":698.799,"end":723.436,"text":"一個禮拜我希望看到財政部、主計處跟副秘書長你們承諾這句話如果不是騙人、不是要挾、不是放話就清楚地表達你們的態度而不是今天隨便口頭說說行政院發言人蔣王這句話已經很久了沒有人出來說啊如果今天早晚沒有排這個報告全國的人民都認為我們要重編預算喔那我們現在在審預算是白癡嗎?"},{"start":725.182,"end":741.814,"text":"第2個講出這些話之後今天才有你們來說明這不是很可笑嗎一個中央政府的發言人可以隨便如此隨便的說這麼嚴峻的事情第3個如果真的要提復議就正面來不要在後面放話以上"}]}},{"id":"158521","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158521","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e023287f85572e82f77ba98e9ef8f04f2c5ada2b19569a09cc50b48a977d456e315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:04:10 - 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},{"start":462.31,"end":473.874,"text":"因為主委因為新北市政府的人現在不在這邊但是沒關係就我跟你的對答你的講法是說是他們沒有來申請所以給的這麼少嘛但是我得到消息不是這樣我得到消息是說客委會你把那個計畫取消那沒有關係啦"},{"start":488.118,"end":506.472,"text":"那你已經承諾了嘛今天只要新北市政府認為有需要比如說客與家庭他還可以來申請嗎是不是這個意思嗎有需求就可以申請嘛那今年跟明年比其實是客委會目前是少補助500多萬嘛所以他還有很大空間可以申請嗎這主委你直接承諾就可以了嘛"},{"start":506.932,"end":527.902,"text":"因為我來自於地方我們要幫地方爭取預算你如果願意承諾我我覺得就OK啦沒什麼要跟你吵的啊是不是?沒有錯沒有錯那我們會跟新北市講說對跟新北市講說可能你們你們中央地方政府溝通之間有問題啦應該是有問題啦應該是應該是有問題啦應該是有問題啦因為我得到的消息不是這樣不過沒有關係我們不用去吵這些我們把事情做好就好"},{"start":535.325,"end":561.98,"text":"那基本上你願意再多給我們500多萬我覺得謝謝你啊我代替我們新北市的對就這個地方如果願意申請你願意給嗎就是這樣子嘛然後另外就是藝名祭跟童話祭啦我希望說你可以維持我們旗艦行的活動啊400萬的活動你只補出100萬這是最大的活動這個是讓客家文化大家一起在一起嘉年華式的活動結果你只給100萬好像很看不起這個活動我非常不能接受啦"},{"start":563.2,"end":584.155,"text":"我根本不能接受啦你可能坐在冷氣房裡面啦不了解地方啦所以就隨便給100萬100萬給你們你們能辦就能辦不能辦就算了但是這個對我們來說很重要希望你改變你的思維這是旗艦行活動每一個機關每一個縣政府都有一個大型的活動地方的節慶那以客家來講在我們新北市就是藝名節"},{"start":585.65,"end":605.147,"text":"他的重要性不是像你講的啦,我們錢就這樣隨便給一給,我覺得我不太能接受這樣的講法。每個地方,每個地方,由他的接近的法律,或是針對接近法律,投射的位分都投一些的啦。多少給一?以前是400萬嘛,你上任之後就剩100萬嘛。你跟其他的主委都不一樣啦。"},{"start":606.633,"end":607.894,"text":"我現在跟你講你當時全面很涼但是之前400萬現在100萬"},{"start":619.594,"end":646.117,"text":"就是在主委的任內啦,把我們砍到剩這麼少啦。你砍到成這樣,我們新北市被你這樣子欺負,實在是我覺得很誇張啦,謝謝。也沒有啦,因為在新北市的全體委員會一來一到,但是可以看到我們在家庭、泥沿、鳳眠、貴庶市所以也不會講得到。反正結果就是這樣嘛,你就聽不進別人講的嘛,謝謝。"},{"start":651.718,"end":653.362,"text":"5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至5時至"}]}},{"id":"16434","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16434","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4f168390ff16a0101e7e4de50953ef4d22ed645e3f9bcfe6adfd63ad74c3d71e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院主管預算凍結項目共7案。\n二、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-12-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-12-30T08:31:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-12-30T11:47:00+08:00","duration":11710,"影片長度":"03:15:10","委員發言時間":"08:31:50 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:2298.117,"text":"報告事項第三至七案經更正後均准予被查提報院會請問有異議有,有異議好請,來第一個請司法院先說明一下今天是12月30號嗎?今天是12月30號明天是12月31號所以是今天解凍明天全部把它執行完畢是這樣嗎?"},{"start":2301.667,"end":2321.423,"text":"在12月30號的時候排這個預算解凍案讓我覺得非常的困惑現在司法院對於這些被凍起來沒有花的錢已經全部蓄勢待發今天解凍完畢明天趁年底12月31號一次把它全部執行完是這樣嗎"},{"start":2323.294,"end":2327.057,"text":"政府預算在年度將屆滿之前,我們預算如果解凍後應如何處理,那麼請機關代表說明,請。"},{"start":2343.786,"end":2368.132,"text":"首先我們感謝那個還是先跟大家指早安主席還有各位委員各位女士先大家早安那我們首先還是感謝大院過委員會安排本院報告本年度預算那個解凍案那今天的那個排程雖然說是排在12月30號但是本院還是會配合就是盡量執行這6個預算案"},{"start":2370.658,"end":2373.5,"text":"主席跟委員說明今天的議程有一個是我們行政法院組織法"},{"start":2391.736,"end":2417.771,"text":"由於過去委員會在對於前一年度對今年度所做的各種預算凍結案都設有解凍條件委員會必須在解凍條件滿足後我們才能排議程本日的議程原定的輪值召委是吳宗憲吳召委因爲他個人有些情況在上週電話跟本席商議"},{"start":2418.431,"end":2442.744,"text":"那麼希望本週的週一跟週四能夠跟我做對調用在下週的議程來做對調那麼由於事出突然所以跟委員說明那麼因為吳釗偉未及能在星期上週四之前將本週的議程排定那麼本席在上週五接續之後就緊急的就目前委員會上代處理的法案"},{"start":2443.164,"end":2443.444,"text":"我這邊指名由會計處處長來說明"},{"start":2472.765,"end":2493.481,"text":"那麼行政機關該年度的預算如果到像今天12月30號解凍之後不管是司法院還是其他行政機關那麼這些預算解凍案在處理上比如說明天後天明年未執行完畢者明年可否繼續執行請楊處長做說明"},{"start":2498.519,"end":2525.824,"text":"報告關於關於今年度的預算如果今年執行不了要到明年的話除非有有契約合約的部分才能夠繼續執行不然的話就可能就是去跌腳過酷所以說今天今天如果有因為今天有有6有5個是那個那個書面報告一個是那個金童義厚詞的東西所以說是在這部分的話我們"},{"start":2526.644,"end":2527.625,"text":"主席請教三個問題第一"},{"start":2547.145,"end":2564.824,"text":"如果說這一筆預算凍結之前已經有部分是可以執行的,那麼比如說採購案,它有的採購案因為預算凍結部分,它只能做部分的發包執行,後續凍結的部分以後續擴充採購來訂定條件。"},{"start":2566.866,"end":2582.066,"text":"那麼訂定條件的時候呢一旦條件滿足比如解凍了那麼後續擴充在契約上他就自然的進行後續擴充這是採購法上的規定是否有這樣的適用今天的盧列的各預算解凍案有沒有這個情況這是第一種情況"},{"start":2583.027,"end":2601.396,"text":"就是這個凍結的部分預算在先前已經就可支用的部分先進行發包採購但是設有條件的後續擴充如果今天解凍了就滿足了後續擴充的條件該標案就可以繼續依金額來執行這第一種"},{"start":2602.469,"end":2626.156,"text":"第二種,就是因為來不及做招標採購的作業,或者說將執行的事務已經屆期過了,沒有執行的必要了,那就您說的就是結繳國庫。第三,因為人未能執行者任有必要的時候,要做預算保留,保留的程序為何,明年可不可以視同意保留後繼續滋用,這三種情況跟今天的個案請針對說明。"},{"start":2629.486,"end":2646.697,"text":"如果那個契約裡面已經有擴充的話那如果今天的部分有沒有主席這邊講的這三種情況那你們一個一個案子說明有哪一個案子什麼情況後續怎麼處理哪一個案子什麼情況後續怎麼處理請說明"},{"start":2649.83,"end":2677.246,"text":"那個那個電腦字電腦字因為那個那個有金銅一號石的東西的部分就是那個電電腦電電腦的部分電腦的部分這可能我要查一下那個我們整個整個契約訂定訂定的的情形是什麼樣我們我們如果如果查就是依照整個合約來來去辦理另外的話如果如果還沒有還因為今年"},{"start":2678.166,"end":2682.429,"text":"目前我們在進行的是報告事項的第三案至第七案那這三到七案呢他是一個查照案是"},{"start":2697.219,"end":2723.407,"text":"就已經解凍就查照了就是我們就照收了那麼可能呢剛剛所垂詢的問題呢跟剛剛處長所說的是在討論事項的一、二的第一案第一案的內容就是第四款第一項的決議一的預算凍結的書面報告才會遇到今天如果委員會同意解凍後才有後續的情況其他的都是查照案"},{"start":2724.287,"end":2736.781,"text":"換言之,這個查照案跟這3到7案的執行狀況並無影響預算執行的關聯,跟委員做說明。好,那麼現在請問委員會還有什麼對於3到7案的查照案有意見,請黃委員。"},{"start":2738.596,"end":2758.851,"text":"上一次這個解凍案之前就排過了排過了以後就是不同意所以才沒解凍嘛查一下上次立法院公報的記錄就很清楚了今天要解凍的每一個案子上一次排解凍案的時候我全部都有表示意見"},{"start":2759.992,"end":2785.458,"text":"我全部都有表示意見上一次開會的時候就是委員會沒有同意所以沒有辦法解凍那個不是說啊你送來本委員會你送來我們沒有其他的選擇就要通過沒這回事啊沒這回事啊如果這個邏輯成立的話上一次排委員會的時候就通過啦"},{"start":2787.011,"end":2815.333,"text":"怎麼會上次排委員會的時候沒有通過然後這一次排委員會的時候想要把它解釋成說這只是查照送來不用經過本委員會同意然後就一定可以過恐怕事情不是這個樣子吧如果這個邏輯可以成立那上次就解凍啦今天還排什麼就是上次沒有過嘛今天才會排嘛第二個"},{"start":2817.113,"end":2844.46,"text":"就像我剛講的阿12月30號阿今天解凍了請問你們要做什麼?剛司法院的代表是說我們盡力來執行這種抽象的語言對不起我聽不懂阿這種抽象的語言我完全聽不懂什麼叫做你們盡力來執行趁明天12月31號趕快把錢花一花嗎?如果運作到12月30號"},{"start":2846.386,"end":2875.488,"text":"這些經費沒有解凍到目前為止看起來對司法院的運作沒有什麼影響啊運作到今天都還運作得非常好啊那我們今天解凍給司法院的是什麼?把這些錢趕快明天12月31號全部花一花沒有這樣子的事情啊國家的經費不是這樣使用的啊我明確的表達剛剛所講的那些解凍案我全部都反對"},{"start":2878.063,"end":2905.818,"text":"好來請機關代表聽清楚我們今天剛剛已經處理了今天的第三案至第七案的更正那麼至於更正的內容為何是否更正之後還存在有剛剛委員垂詢因為如果今天查照沒有通過那是否會涉及到這些更正後金額的後續執行聽清楚了沒有"},{"start":2906.678,"end":2916.851,"text":"我再講一次,待會我會分別請機關代表,就第3案請看第7頁,第4案第11頁,第5案第31頁,第6案第35頁,第7案第41頁。由於今天司法院先來了一個對這3到7案"},{"start":2925.222,"end":2939.743,"text":"他的內容的更正。換言之今天查照案的內容跟上次因為沒有得到委員會的共識所以我們就另定其審議跟上次的內容是有別的"},{"start":2940.464,"end":2965.442,"text":"那待會請機關代表分別就後來更正後我們委員會已經同意查照的部分來說明那因為剛剛委員在垂詢的是上次這幾個案子它的內容委員會沒有完成查照那委員會當然在送備查的過程中委員有意見我們當然還不能視為通過那麼經過這段時間之後今天是"},{"start":2967.304,"end":2982.796,"text":"113年的倒數第二天了那這些預算的執行情況是否在你們大院這個司法院送來更正之後在後續的執行上今天的查照無論"},{"start":2984.142,"end":3007.943,"text":"處理的是通過還是不予同意要繼續處理那會有什麼影響請機關代表分別就這五個案子來做說明跟委員提醒一下我們現在處理的這五個案子跟上次處理的時候內容上已經更正了謝謝來黃委員我說明一下"},{"start":3009.844,"end":3010.684,"text":"今天解凍的意義何在?請司法院說清楚"},{"start":3036.072,"end":3061.003,"text":"今天解凍了,把這些錢明天12月31號趕快拿去花一花嗎?這是我的問題啊。今天更正的報告,我來強調一次啊。我不同意,我不同意解凍。除非司法院講得很清楚,今天解凍完了,這些錢明天12月31號要拿去幹什麼?更不要講,我先不要講實質的內容啦。"},{"start":3065.202,"end":3079.396,"text":"講實質的內容所謂的更正報告到底更正了什麼啊全部都在寫作文嘛你寫這種作文式的文章來要我們解惡動把立法院當橡皮圖章嗎"},{"start":3084.243,"end":3107.555,"text":"因為委員有很明確的表達他的立場跟要求接下來主席這邊就一案來逐一的處理我在處理的時候請機關代表做說明我們現在先進行第三案請看第七頁請機關代表說明第七頁更重內容為何我們接下來說明完後本期就處理"},{"start":3110.782,"end":3115.024,"text":"請每一個負責的部門簡短的說明你們更正的內容為何即可因為這些案子委員會上次都已經看過了那更正的內容大家有同意就備查"},{"start":3136.354,"end":3137.435,"text":"請第三案已經找好了沒有,再請說明"},{"start":3147.492,"end":3172.128,"text":"第三案的部分就是因為Wi-Fi的問題那上次我有提到過說這個這個部分不會是一個普遍的現象那我們今天我們更正了什麼我們全部把它盤點了就更正的部分做說明就是一個表格他表格的時候就說原來的原來的那個頻寬是多少那增加以後的頻寬是多少那我們基本上像像那個因為他每一個"},{"start":3172.844,"end":3173.745,"text":"你那個麥克風好像聲音會很小"},{"start":3202.216,"end":3229.438,"text":"那我們已經有建制到一半那另外就是說因為上次我有提到說說他的預算凍結的時候並不是針對這一項去凍結那如果我們完全都不執行這一項的話那我覺得這樣不合理因為這等於說跟國會承諾的事情做不到所以我們這一項是把把原來的就是原來的那個經費就是原來的經費照常之用因為他並不是凍結原來買wifi的他是凍結到別的地方去"},{"start":3230.279,"end":3242.047,"text":"那如果今天今天如果這個解凍的時候有一些科目可能必須要變更因為我們事實上是有一些開口合約存在的開口合約譬如說我們減買了一些筆電因為這些比較沒有當務之急我們減買那減買如果這項通過以後我們必須變更科目"},{"start":3247.231,"end":3248.672,"text":"謝謝剛剛是資訊處何處長的說明這邊請委員看到第10頁"},{"start":3269.228,"end":3289.482,"text":"剛剛何處長所提的是第10頁的副表1,第一個跟委員做說明的。第二個呢,上次的不同意解凍,並不是不同意執行副表1的內容,而是以副表1的內容為完備,而對於上位的科目預算進行凍結。"},{"start":3290.783,"end":3318.168,"text":"所以目前委員會所不同意解凍的預算跟副表一的執行內容不是直接相關的換言之不管今天的預算有沒有解凍副表一的內容都持續著一原計畫在執行當中今天是副表一經處長的說明經上次委員會的質疑他將內容具體呈現"},{"start":3319.281,"end":3335.774,"text":"那麼第三個部分那麼如果今天這個解凍案沒有經委員會同意那受到影響的不是這一個項目的執行內容是目前已經執行項目跟未執行的預算之間的一些"},{"start":3337.506,"end":3339.427,"text":"委員會所做的不同意解凍他設定的條件"},{"start":3353.718,"end":3381.68,"text":"未必是該凍結預算執行的對象而是我們要求對於某執行內容提供說明後才同意對整筆預算的部分解凍部分進行後續的處理解凍不解凍的結果影響所及是指尚未執行的內容哪些就無法執行還是整個執行該執行都做了因為預算編列不見得百分之百執行的"},{"start":3381.98,"end":3397.789,"text":"那麼這個解凍或不解凍,應不影響到12月30日之前已執行的各項計畫?處長有聽懂了喔?好,那麼我們繼續來請教委員會第10頁上次要求提供的書面內容是否足夠?程序上先請教主席第一個,我們第一案是"},{"start":3406.723,"end":3411.94,"text":"第三案沒有對不起所以我才說我程序上先請教第一案是要處理還是不要處理"},{"start":3413.752,"end":3439.655,"text":"我們現在進行的是報告事項的第3、第4、第5、第6、第7那麼由於委員會有委員有意見我們就依序的就每一案的方式來徵詢委員的意見那前面的兩個部分已經處理完畢了所謂前面兩個處理完畢指的是什麼?宣讀上次會議事錄,議事錄確認那麼上次的更正之預算凍結書面報告更正書面報告請責案也已經通過了"},{"start":3440.6,"end":3464.866,"text":"所謂上次更正的書面報告請查照指的是哪些案子?就是目前我們看到的第3案到第7案的內容這些書面內容因為它上次送到委員會的內容跟今天送來的內容不一樣那上次送來的第3案到第7案的內容經委員會有意見要求他們做一些調整所以今天送來的第3案大家看到的副表"},{"start":3465.646,"end":3485.354,"text":"就是上次在處理這個查照案當中所不同的所以剛剛處長已經說明了他們就第10頁的附表內容跟上次委員會垂詢的部分他做了補充請委員會瞭解所以送來補充了以後不就要經過我們同意就算已經進行完畢了嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":3487.279,"end":3512.402,"text":"送來補充更正內容在前面的查詔案剛剛表示已經同意了委員會已經同意了等一下等一下等一下委員會什麼時候表示同意的剛剛念過啦對啊我表示異議啦沒有我們表示異議的是在我問第三案到第七案的查詔案是否同意沒有沒有沒有前面剛剛在念的時候我已經很清楚的表達異議了那不是主席念過就直接算通過欸"},{"start":3514.226,"end":3519.349,"text":"可以把剛剛的會議的影音全部調出來看啊來我從頭一一到尾耶"},{"start":3521.656,"end":3544.65,"text":"可以這樣用混的喔請注意用詞主席說的在這邊來印給大家看我剛剛已經說了我異議了你異議的時候已經在處理第三案到第七案了誰嘛剛剛你就是主席自己坐在主席台上面你唸過就算了嘛唸過之後委員會沒有異議才會通過的異議啊"},{"start":3546.058,"end":3556.124,"text":"你一一的時候已經在處理第3到7案了。請委員會尊重你自己啊!請主席尊重你自己啦!你回去看看你剛剛那邊什麼時候講什麼話!休息!休息啦!休息!我從頭一到尾啊!"},{"start":3571.099,"end":3595.269,"text":"你唸完就算了喔!你以為你住在主席牌,但你唸後主席喔!我有異議!沒有關係,掉你袋出來看吧!我從從異議到異議!呼喊到呼喊到接走!你不要觀測啦!你以為唸過就算了喔!唸過你當場沒有異議就結束了!我有異議啦!你後來我唸第三案在記下你才異議的啦!搞不清楚幾個狀況!"},{"start":3596.829,"end":3598.892,"text":"連政府司政預算金額不清楚"},{"start":3602.88,"end":3616.205,"text":"你現在暴力供詞我嗎?你要暴力供詞我嗎?開始暴力供詞了嗎?沒有啦!因為你暴力供詞的意思太多了啦!開始了嗎?開始什麼?沒有啊!你暴力供詞其他委員!所有各大媒體通通都有啊!你繼續講!你繼續講!大家看得清楚你在這裡說不過就開始講一些五四單了!"},{"start":3629.013,"end":3639.1,"text":"唉,到底是誰說了過說不過沒有關係啦,今天是主席喊休息嘛,慌慌會議有關,你是我們民調會議的主席王嘉斌,你要喊休息就喊休息,主席念完就算了喔,不喊完這個案子喔,丟人現臉,我從頭到尾一一到尾,我從頭一一到尾"},{"start":3672.315,"end":3676.679,"text":"連政府的預算的施政的內容他一層一都不了解"},{"start":3685.342,"end":3707.169,"text":"法學不是我不見得知道預算的實行內容你不用在那邊搶那邊五四三啦你以為你嘴巴講出來是怎麼樣就怎麼樣喔我有很多時間是為了要節省時間你對於凍結預算解凍後的處理程序有沒有保留有沒有執行有沒有擴充採購都不了解剛剛北京移民處才要跟你做說明很可惜你的腦袋聽不懂"},{"start":3708.598,"end":3733.775,"text":"你用這種呼喊的方法沒有辦法達到你要的目的啦!我會瞭解預算的行政執行就說人家在呼喊不可以去翻一番規嘛!那你要他講清楚嘛!是啊!那你要怎麼問啊?我問了啊!他們有回答嗎?剛剛我要問的時候一直在主席台上面講說主席要問主席要處理那是第三案你以為你前面又念了就沒有問得過去喔?那是第三案不是第二案"},{"start":3734.295,"end":3745.805,"text":"您 出乎了 恍神了 不要怪別人我完全沒有恍神我聚精會神的坐在這邊開會我不像你們一堆民進黨的立委阿為了要護航連會都不來開丟臉阿民進黨欸"},{"start":3750.287,"end":3766.492,"text":"只有一個委員來開會加一個主席丟臉啦其他的委員到什麼地方去了其他委員到什麼地方去了這個就是我們自由法制委員會丟臉啦沒有關係啊我除了你預算我請羅志祥委員幫我看啊我更不會我更不會像你們一樣"},{"start":3778.188,"end":3805.557,"text":"明明表決那麼重要的法案做公務車跑去找奶工還在做直播對 做公務車跑去找奶工吃飯放的那些人吹風淋雨就是人民進黨幹的事情啊很好很好繼續講 講得很好都是你的直播的內容我們等到那個內容掉出來我們會給委員會看一下"},{"start":3822.602,"end":3823.677,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":3858.56,"end":3859.922,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3876.776,"end":3881.42,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":3901.618,"end":3914.008,"text":"剛剛我跟汪小林委員回看直播"},{"start":3925.834,"end":3953.359,"text":"我們的主席阿,你針對報告事項第二齁,念完以後你直接跳到第三,你中間根本連問都沒問,然後就說這我們就要同意,你是這樣說法嗎?先處理第二案司法院更正之預算解凍書面報告來函本函更正函於被查後,再配合後續第三至七案之預算解凍書面報告案,依序進行處理。第二次來函決定"},{"start":3956.055,"end":3983.576,"text":"我們委員會休息到10點半,我們調錄影帶,把它組織稿整理出來,休息到10點半。那麼我們處理呢,報告事項的第3至7案。對啊,他沒有,他沒有。他直接講一個準語被查,就是處理3至7案。主論都沒問。稿子念完,連個問句都沒有,連個句號都沒有,直接跳第三案。然後就跟我們講,前面那個第二案是大家同意的,有這種主席嗎?莫名其妙。"},{"start":3984.878,"end":3991.981,"text":"上面就已經剛回不回看了啦還要凹你就倒回去第二案重新處理不就好了你耳朵才有問題欸"},{"start":4206.852,"end":4207.552,"text":"現在呢我們依序處理報告現在呢現在我們依序處理報告現在呢現在我們依序處理報告現在呢"},{"start":4239.326,"end":4239.588,"text":"好現在呢"},{"start":4996.664,"end":5013.524,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5034.113,"end":5037.076,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5040.259,"end":5042.321,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5059.096,"end":5059.597,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5081.693,"end":5088.94,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5103.094,"end":5120.613,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5121.874,"end":5130.638,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5151.448,"end":5151.829,"text":"主席"},{"start":5159.953,"end":5166.516,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）完整會議二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5189.029,"end":5198.342,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5203.55,"end":5204.791,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5228.106,"end":5230.567,"text":"請審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":5254.48,"end":5255.701,"text":"一、繼續審查司法院函"},{"start":5272.75,"end":5273.271,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5296.63,"end":5313.567,"text":"因為這個前面已經全部都要過了,不是通過這個,因為他就把那個當成亂立了,還沒有這樣,中央政府都還沒發言,沒有當初的那個,為什麼那個是,那個沒有把握,那個是說他的立法院會解決,他要排放法該,不是說我們要跟他排放。"},{"start":5317.391,"end":5317.651,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5335.171,"end":5336.192,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5366.085,"end":5367.166,"text":"司法院主管委員會議"},{"start":5404.751,"end":5415.156,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5431.937,"end":5432.858,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5461.7,"end":5462.52,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5504.588,"end":5505.868,"text":"同一個被凍結 同一個被凍結 同一個被凍結"},{"start":5531.568,"end":5532.028,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5563.84,"end":5566.623,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":5587.703,"end":5605.298,"text":"對,那你的前報告是國會決議的這一段,你的後報告也是國會決議的一段,只是你的內容後種。那我的意思是說,從程序上,你們在講,不然像是這人是,像是你的代表議案的表現,你司法院針對這一個人,那你是送養罪,你知道嗎?對,對,對,那變相其實是從這個報告"},{"start":5612.201,"end":5613.502,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":5635.471,"end":5636.831,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5668.919,"end":5669.821,"text":"查詔案宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5681.459,"end":5683.78,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":5707.829,"end":5710.952,"text":"上一次參會反對原題案的例子"},{"start":5725.303,"end":5726.525,"text":"司法院主管委員"},{"start":5740,"end":5741.641,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5768.57,"end":5769.191,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5793.08,"end":5816.843,"text":"一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文"},{"start":5821.408,"end":5823.094,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5833.114,"end":5858.04,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5864.161,"end":5864.962,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5887.568,"end":5906.985,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5909.724,"end":5918.931,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5928.031,"end":5953.119,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":5956.638,"end":5969.49,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5994.537,"end":6002.799,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6004.754,"end":6005.635,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6025.508,"end":6027.21,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6052.602,"end":6055.196,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6068.305,"end":6069.526,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6097.006,"end":6107.074,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6128.911,"end":6150.671,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6157.892,"end":6172.363,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6176.112,"end":6176.532,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6202.807,"end":6203.348,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6214.295,"end":6233.743,"text":"看起來好像都是委員會在証明,但實際上從區分的關係來看,其實本來前面的報告是不用委員會在這邊証明的,他如果要改為要跟我們討論,他應該是在面會的時候,他就要動議,改列為討論,因為法的法,討論要改列為討論,不像我們原則上的討論,但是我們在面會可以改成法。"},{"start":6243.447,"end":6244.868,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6267.088,"end":6267.949,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6288.903,"end":6289.704,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6304.342,"end":6304.702,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6324.369,"end":6325.19,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6336.096,"end":6336.416,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6360.99,"end":6362.411,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6386.714,"end":6387.455,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":6418.328,"end":6442.922,"text":"就是更新資料沒有更新的基礎我站在現場做了多久?那至於說你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料"},{"start":6447.985,"end":6448.626,"text":"凍結項目 凍結項目 凍結項目"},{"start":6469.342,"end":6469.843,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6488.943,"end":6491.866,"text":"請審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":6518.767,"end":6519.907,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6560.239,"end":6572.649,"text":"一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6584.911,"end":6586.212,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6610.893,"end":6631.877,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查"},{"start":6665.296,"end":6667.298,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6702.79,"end":6708.882,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6741.893,"end":6745.415,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6760.39,"end":6769.358,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6795.307,"end":6810.213,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員"},{"start":6820.52,"end":6823.322,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6863.356,"end":6864.458,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6903.078,"end":6926.129,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查"},{"start":6933.59,"end":6934.354,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6981.897,"end":6987.502,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7008.48,"end":7009.421,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7048.239,"end":7059.899,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7074.39,"end":7074.991,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7096.852,"end":7119.742,"text":"好,現在繼續開會,跟委員做個說明現在委員會各委員桌上有放到一個就是剛剛所謂的竹子稿那麼剛剛金主席這邊對應我們在議事人員提供的才是參考內容去對照之後是均與參考內容一致那我在這裡跟委員做說明"},{"start":7121.223,"end":7144.753,"text":"在議事上,主席所謂的宣告,未必要以徵詢匯眾有意為前提。那麼有些我們巡曆會徵詢匯眾的意見,那比如說議事錄的確認。但是如果現場有徵詢,無表達,那我們就會做宣告。那剛剛的部分呢,我們分成兩個部分。一個是今天有報告事項跟討論事項。"},{"start":7146.013,"end":7169.628,"text":"那報告事項當中除第三案到第七案是上次委員會處理報告事項內容有委員會有意見所以定期處理那至於第二案的內容他是送交第三到七案以及討論事項第一案的更正資料因此主席在處理上就是決定准予被查"},{"start":7170.248,"end":7198.259,"text":"但是既然委員會在後續3到7案報告事項的討論當中覺得對第二案的更正資料內容有意見那麼主席雖然當下並無人表達異議那主席這邊也可以接受以復一的方式來重新徵詢對今日我們報告事項第二案到第7案的處理方式我們委員會的意見"},{"start":7199.099,"end":7212.733,"text":"那麼剛剛有委員表達對第二案的准予被查有不同意見那我們做復議的處理那請問在場委員對於第二案准予被查是否同意"},{"start":7213.865,"end":7242.619,"text":"不同意好不同意那現在呢其他委員是否也接受這個第二案包括事項不予被查的這樣的一個決定那如果委員會覺得我們第二案就不予被查那接下來我先做說明再請那個我們的機關代表做說明那在這裡呢也要跟機關代表做一個提醒因為你們送來第二案要求查照的更正內容"},{"start":7243.479,"end":7251.313,"text":"包括了從第三案到第七案的報告事項以及跨到了我們討論事項的第一案"},{"start":7252.455,"end":7277.002,"text":"那在性質上跟委員會跟大家報告一下委員會是呈院會之命來進行受理報告事項跟討論事項那由於查照案他的報告事項的性質系院會交定委員會無權變更他的性質也就我們另定其處理但不會一列為討論案"},{"start":7278.762,"end":7300.388,"text":"再說明一次今天院會送交本委員會處理的查照案我們委員會只能接受院會的這樣的指定的性質那至於後面的討論事項院會交付我們進行討論事項第一案和第二案這都是包括的是一個是討論事項第一案是一個凍結預算"},{"start":7302.088,"end":7323.317,"text":"案另外一個是一個行政院組織法的部分條文修正案這個在討論事項中我們要處理那我現在呢還是要告訴司法院因為你們送來第二案的查照內容涵蓋了兩包一包是3到7案報告事項的查照案的更新內容一案是"},{"start":7325.735,"end":7342.508,"text":"討論事項第一案的更新內容那因為現在委員會已經不接受你們第二案的更新內容了那請問你們對於待會如果要處理討論事項第一案的更新內容有沒有要繼續交給本委員會來進行審查時候的參酌瞭解嗎"},{"start":7350.219,"end":7358.371,"text":"目前我們是在進行報告事項的第二案的查照案那第二案已經有委員會委員"},{"start":7360.935,"end":7384.082,"text":"認為不予查照,那我們當然接下來我們就不能夠把它當作是你們送來的更新資料。由於你們送來的更新資料有含涉到後面討論事項的第一案,那因為如果這個部分我們通通不接受不處理,那待會在討論事項第一案的時候就沒有更新資料了。所以我這裡呢是現場處理,詢問機關代表你們要不要把"},{"start":7385.029,"end":7393.082,"text":"第二案查照案的更新資料內容涉及到討論事項第一案的內容提出來請我們委員會表達意見"},{"start":7397.108,"end":7424.665,"text":"要,好,那麼待會主席會跟委員會瞭解一下那待會你們在報告第二案更新內容的時候請你們告訴我們哪些是報告事項第三案至第七案的內容那些我們就不接受了哪一個是我們討論事項第一案的內容委員會才有辦法根據你們送來的資料進行後續的處理好,那請問是誰要來幫我們做這樣的報告"},{"start":7425.748,"end":7447.261,"text":"那我們的剛剛因為因為那個第三案的部分已經說明了那接下來依序請第四案、第五案、第六案、第七案以及報告事項第一案相關內容更新的業務部門主管告訴委員會到底你們更新哪些資料那雖然我們3到7案部分委員會已經不受理了但是還是讓大家知道一下謝謝"},{"start":7452.546,"end":7478.977,"text":"主席我請教一下我剛因為在別的委員會我看一下這個第一我手上這一張是早上的是吧?你是說主治稿是吧?主治稿是因為剛剛有委員會委員表達對於主席在處理我們報告事項第三案到第七案的程序上認為報告事項第二案的准與被查的部分"},{"start":7479.657,"end":7507.562,"text":"沒有留予我們委員會表達不同意見的機會那剛剛主席已經根據復議的程序重新提交給委員會表示意見了那現在我們接下來呢就是第二案報告事項第二案就沒有同意查照那因為第二案的內容他全部是針對我們報告事項第三案到第七案所涉及到的內容的更新以及討論事項第一案"},{"start":7508.51,"end":7508.53,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":7524.751,"end":7533.978,"text":"第二報告事項第二案的查照送請查到的更新的內容主義的跟委員會說明是更新哪一個案的會議資料的內容。"},{"start":7546.467,"end":7561.964,"text":"所以目前我們在準備要接下來進行的是3到7,剛剛第3案好像已經算不算處理了,還沒有,等於3到7還沒處理了。好,那麼接下來請機關代表分別就我們報告事項第二案。"},{"start":7562.684,"end":7586.356,"text":"更新資料內容涉及到後續報告事項第三至第七案以及討論事項第一案的相關部分請說明那因為剛剛那個第三案的部分資訊處處長已經說明了那我們現在請第四案的部分機關代表來做說明主席、各位委員大家好那我的形式一定在這邊做補充報告關於第四案的部分我們主要是跟"},{"start":7590.339,"end":7618.298,"text":"有關第4案的部分我們是主要提案41有關於簡便實例落差的問題我們在新的報告裡面新增了法務基金會對酬金折算基準從1500元調整為2000元的說明第二個增加法務基金會預計在114年成立專職律師刑事辯護中心的一些說明資料第三點我們新增了公社還有公社辯護人或閱兵辯護人的一些進修課程的一些辦理情形"},{"start":7620.9,"end":7646.469,"text":"提案45部分有關於捐贈不並送部分我們內容並沒有做太大的變動那對提案49部分有關於營業秘密的部分我們新增的主要內容是新增國民法官跟被衛國民法官以及一般民眾對緩和評議秘密的一些意見的傾向那意見的傾向是他們認為說如果透過充分的自由的評論跟法官的一些事宜那這時候就可以避免一些"},{"start":7647.429,"end":7666.894,"text":"的一些偏見或是不當的評議內容另外我們增加的另外第二點我們增加的新增成效評估委員會就評議秘密的一些相關的規範那認為說還不需要委員當時認為說那不需要再做放寬應該嚴守評議秘密這部分決定"},{"start":7671.772,"end":7685.129,"text":"報告事項第7的部分我們新增的報告是新增的法務基金會對籌金折算標準的一些調整從1500元調整為2000元的這些相關說明另外包括新增的辯護人"},{"start":7686.721,"end":7714.97,"text":"工作方以及相關的培訓計畫的一些課程活動情形另外,增加了法務基金會預計在114年成立專職律師刑事辯護中心的一些說明另外,第四我們新增了招聘約聘辯護人11位及分化情形的一些說明那有關於報告事項第6案的部分我們增加了一些相關的數據就是辦理科技監控的一些相關數據跟教育訓練的一些情形以上"},{"start":7716.428,"end":7722.598,"text":"好謝謝廳長那廳長沒想到第4案到第7案都是您的夜館範圍"},{"start":7724.554,"end":7751.71,"text":"因為你念得好快我來不及跟委員會做提示第4案你是一口氣講4、6、7我是先請你做第4案來那麼跟委員說明目前剛剛那個李廳長所說明的請大家翻閱今天這個報紙顏色的這一份資料的第11頁司法院書面報告內容就是關於國民法官制度等等的相關內容"},{"start":7752.671,"end":7765.745,"text":"那他一共是從第12、13、14、15到17頁這是屬於第4案的內容那因為第4案的內容這些內容都是本次送交給本委員會要進行使用討論"},{"start":7768.424,"end":7791.981,"text":"就在進行第四案包括事項第四案的一些處理啦那我們就全部視為是新增資料啦那我就先還是逐一的詢問委員會先第四案的這些新增送來的11月到17月的內容那他講的是國民法官制度推行中他需要進行預算解凍150萬所據描述的"},{"start":7795.043,"end":7798.645,"text":"今天司法院針對113年度預算凍結案摘要報告在這個摘要報告最後說我們所列的6項凍結案"},{"start":7825.419,"end":7854.859,"text":"禁請會議同意解凍這個是司法院今天到本司法法制委員會的主要訴求我先表明我的立場針對所列六項凍結案本人不同意解凍本人不同意解凍我有再說明一次今天是12月30號今天解凍你是打算明天把錢全部都花了嗎"},{"start":7856.943,"end":7877.09,"text":"今天解凍這個事情有什麼意義我為了節省時間啊我話第一輪先講到這裡你要每一案細緻的來進行討論也沒有關係啊我特別提醒司法院國民法官的制度啊花了全體納稅人多少錢從一開始推動到現在花了全體納稅人多少錢結果都在辦一些什麼案子"},{"start":7888.939,"end":7916.912,"text":"我上一次針對國民法官的制度說法制委員會吳宗憲委員非常用心的辦了考察我一般啊考察我不太參加的但如果牽涉到重要政策議題的考察我會參加我那天在考察的時候我已經跟司法院說得很清楚了你們過去這幾年國民法官的制度花了多少錢"},{"start":7919.571,"end":7932.288,"text":"結果做出來的樣子做出來的樣子處理的案子是哪些類型的案子我希望司法院徹底的、冷靜的回去檢討"},{"start":7935.953,"end":7953.053,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的指教那麼剛剛黃委員還是也就本案也就全部的第3到7案的報告事項的查抄案所做的要求那是機關代表可以分別就通案說明這些解通案"},{"start":7953.573,"end":7979.194,"text":"如果委員會完成解凍或不完成解凍後續機關會如何的處理進行一個蓋鑰匙的說明然後再請李廳長就第4案的部分如果150萬解凍或未解凍後續會進行的預算執行的方法跟方式是什麼那分別來做說明那先請副秘書長做全部蓋掛性的說明"},{"start":7980.61,"end":7986.315,"text":"有關於預算這一個部分我請會計處長回答可以嗎?整個概括的那請處長說明報告委員會關於那個整個預算的執行就是我們如果解凍之後"},{"start":7997.145,"end":8018.259,"text":"我們如果能夠執行的,如果能夠有依照合約的部分,或者是我們已經在處理當中的部分,能夠付款的部分,我們就直接依照一程序去滋用。如果為人即時去滋用,或者是沒有辦法去滋用的話,我們就是那個結繳國庫,會這樣子處理。"},{"start":8020.742,"end":8037.834,"text":"好,那就是3到7案查詔案如果未獲委員會接受,那你們對於這些應解凍,打算解凍而未能解凍的就是結繳國庫嗎?那如果解凍了,能夠執行的就執行,不能執行的也是結繳國庫,是這樣意思嗎?"},{"start":8040.538,"end":8058.104,"text":"好那接下來那個李廳長那麼請問第4案的部分你們這裡是凍結150萬那剛剛有委員對於國民法官相關的業務推動有一些看法那這150萬解凍或未能解凍對你們後續執行上產生的實況的推演是什麼請說明是"},{"start":8059.241,"end":8061.342,"text":"好,那跟委員報告,那麼現在第4案的部分以及第6案跟第7案,那第6案是在第35頁"},{"start":8090.492,"end":8102.351,"text":"第35頁是凍結100萬那目前剛剛刑事廳長他已經說明的是關於刑事科技設備監控的內容那請問委員對於剛剛"},{"start":8105.014,"end":8128.707,"text":"李廷長所救報告事項第6案的內容對不起喔,因為我現在手頭上只有本次更新的資料啦所以我也無法就上次提供的資料來做詢問那我原本你們看的也都是今天更新的資料那更新的資料內容呢在第6案的部分第37頁部分表達是做科技監控設備的這個採購跟執行"},{"start":8132.549,"end":8135.721,"text":"好那有沒有委員要就這個部分不明白的地方還要詢問李廳長來請翁委員"},{"start":8139.728,"end":8167.85,"text":"其實剛剛聽會計處處長這個的談話我是想說可不可以請處長您就直接很清楚的告訴我們接下來這幾案有哪一個是已經簽約了或是說是若完全都沒有任何的採購或是這個做其他的簽約的這些活動這些事情的話那是不是就代表這些錢都是被凍在那裡所以完全沒有使用嗎"},{"start":8169.52,"end":8176.849,"text":"就算是我們今天解凍了明天來講一定也來不及就是一定會解個什麼解繳國庫"},{"start":8178.479,"end":8205.49,"text":"可不可以請那個處長回答?好,謝謝翁委員。那麼因為現在翁委員談的是第...報告資料第...就是剛剛一開始那個廳長他有說...有有有...呃,處長,會計處處長,他是就整體來講,那可是我剛剛其實我就想問這個問題,然後呃,後來剛剛這個是...李廳長李廳長他說其實國民法官這個事情他就根本沒有做嘛,對不對?那接下來這個科技設備的部分是不是有採購嗎?"},{"start":8209.523,"end":8225.692,"text":"現在跟委員說明我們要進行第6案是要了解目前第6案所謂科技監控設備凍結100萬的影響跟後續解不解凍的差別那待會看是聽長還是處長要回答我們委員的詢問像科技監控設備就是電子腳療"},{"start":8226.713,"end":8248.128,"text":"那如果電子假聊目前這個在執行中的監控如果少了這一百萬會不會有人的電子假聊就沒電了他就跑掉了還是說沒有這一百萬還是可以有效的監控目前或交保在外用電子假聊監控的這些相關案件的被告或嫌疑人請具體說明是要廳長說明還是處長說明這兩位都需要先請廳長再請處長"},{"start":8254.195,"end":8282.466,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問有關於科技監控的部分有關科技監控設備執行科控中心的相關執行預算包括設備預算的部分是分別編列在高等法院那個是他們是跟高檢署來負責執行的那我們刑事廳的部分包括是教育訓練而已所以這部分我們會我們當時也是尊重委員會這邊的決議所以我們沒有去相關的做動資所以刑事廳這邊只是教育訓練那些也來不及教育訓練了嗎"},{"start":8283.426,"end":8287.469,"text":"我們也有做,我們就是規模變得比較小大概我們辦了三次的教育訓練大概有300多人來做參加那我們預計明年度也繼續做教育訓練以上"},{"start":8300.048,"end":8319.614,"text":"處長請因為我們要看合約有一些有開口合約的就是依照原簽訂的合約來去執行所以說原則上我們如果那個依照依照我們的我們那時候我們都整個立法院的那個決議我們很多東西都沒有簽約但是有一些部分"},{"start":8320.574,"end":8323.036,"text":"接下來因為第7案的部分請看委員看到第41頁"},{"start":8350.336,"end":8372.59,"text":"第41頁是關於一般行政凍結50萬,如何提高職業律師及法輔律師在國民法官法的接案意願。這個部分剛剛李廳長也做說明了。那麼是不是委員有對於這個部分的內容?因為目前我們委員會不接受他們所提供的最新的從第41頁到第47頁的內容。"},{"start":8376.372,"end":8394.839,"text":"那所以呢,如果有不明白的部分,可以馬上提出來。好,那如果沒有的話,那麼第7案,第7案是請,剛剛講到,第7案已經講完了。我剛剛講的是467,那第5案是哪一位?第5案,第31頁。"},{"start":8401.363,"end":8418.796,"text":"三十一頁的部分他這裡面寫的是法律輔助基金會的這個凍結50分的內容那法律輔助基金會是哪一位機關代表是要由法輔的周執行長嗎是哪一位廳長"},{"start":8424.548,"end":8426.95,"text":"主席各位委員好我是司法行政廳廳長高玉順那現在就這個第6項決議的部分來簡要的說明我們這一次的書面報告的內容那主要是我們新增了從108年開始的有關這個輔助律師的酬金有做的一些調整那其中呢有7項重要的調整"},{"start":8448.484,"end":8470.134,"text":"包含了就是法律諮詢的籌金從3小時1.5基數調整為1小時0.6基數還有增加了大法庭程序的輔助項目籌金標準以及合理工時那另外還有增加了可以指派3位輔助律師或專律來共同辦理這個憲法法庭還有大法官程序的審理案件"},{"start":8471.089,"end":8486.738,"text":"那另外呢,針對了這個案情複雜的部分呢,我們也另外增加了這個徵仇的事由。還有呢,這個另外呢,針對輔助律師他有幫忙撰寫了上述理由書,或者是訴訟救助的抗告再抗告。"},{"start":8487.338,"end":8499.641,"text":"或者是接獲本案判決之後呢,再做這個積壓,還或者是暫行安置的開庭。那還有呢,就是針對消債案件,另外撰寫強制執行生命意義狀,這一些有做徵求。另外呢,我們還會核實支付這個檢警培真專案以及偏遠地區的交通,日間交通費用。這個是一般案件目前重要的幾個徵求事項。"},{"start":8511.784,"end":8518.693,"text":"那針對國民法官案件的部分呢我們在國民法官案件上路之前在101年111年我們有分別這個基金會有修正了籌金計付辦法將法服的這個籌金的基數呢從每一個基數1000元提高為1500元這個是在國民法官上路之前"},{"start":8531.508,"end":8547.433,"text":"那在公民法官案件上路之後呢因為我們考量到因為考量到這個公民法官這個訴訟時程的安排比較密集另外我們還有增加了公民法官的選任程序還有律師調查證據律師調查證據的這個困難度的提高所以呢我們也另外呢就"},{"start":8552.555,"end":8552.835,"text":"委員會有沒有進一步的詢問"},{"start":8583.324,"end":8595.927,"text":"請換委員今年度法律輔助基金會編列了14億9409萬5千元的預算請問到目前為止執行的數字有多少"},{"start":8605.393,"end":8633.965,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這個部分今年還沒有決算所以我們這個決算的數字還沒有出來所以到目前為止執行了多少連大概的數字都不知道請機關代表注意主席請你發言才發言請問關於這個部分是由哪位機關代表要做說明是法福基金會嗎那請周執行長說明是跟委員報告在年中的時候應該執行的這個部分都有接近50%但是因為我們決算還沒有決算所以決算的數字還沒有出來"},{"start":8634.838,"end":8656.732,"text":"所以到目前為止你連大致的數字都沒有請問是這樣嗎在年中的時候對不起我問的是現在現在這個部分要等到12月1月決算以後我們這邊才有具體對所以我說你目前為止到目前為止花了多少錢連大致的數字都沒有是嗎所以我旅遊問說現在到底是執行14億還是執行15億連這個都不知道請問是這樣嗎"},{"start":8663.65,"end":8684.268,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這個部分的決算的叫今年12月的酬金才會做確定1月才會確定12月的酬金如果是這樣的話那我就非常好奇了那如果是這樣你完全對於現在已經執行多少錢一點概念都沒有那你怎麼知道"},{"start":8685.089,"end":8704.847,"text":"你們現在執行到1月出來的決算數不會超過預算數因為我剛聽你這樣的回答我必須要老實說我非常非常驚訝我今天如果是要你一個非常精準的數字那當然不可能嘛但問題是每一個機關包括法服在內一定要做預算的控管啊"},{"start":8706.052,"end":8730.91,"text":"一定要做預算的控管啊確保你剛剛所謂的1月決算的時候不會超過預算數嘛所以我如果連跟你請教一個大致的數字都不知道的話那我就會非常的驚訝我們現在法律輔助基金會的內機內控是完全不設防嗎現在可能執行15億16億你也不知道這樣不是很奇怪的事嗎"},{"start":8732.455,"end":8748.334,"text":"那個法律輔助基金會代表周執行長那麼因為剛剛司法院的機關代表有會計處處長那剛剛委員垂詢的內容請你們因為主席要處理了還是可以就你們今天只有你來沒有會計人員來"},{"start":8749.615,"end":8772.047,"text":"那您可以在會後趕快請會計人員就委員關心的事項我知道我們那個有權威性的有法定效益的數字是決算報告但是委員垂詢的是執行的進度那依我們行政機關其實主計人員、會計人員的掌控其實以現在12月來講11月的執行數其實會計人員都知道"},{"start":8775.714,"end":8803.623,"text":"第二該機關的該科目的預算如果有遭凍結扣除凍結金額的才是該年度可執行的預算原則上會計人員是不會允許凍資超過這個水位的這個是自不代言這是常識但是如果有對這部分保留有質疑那機關代表最好還是可以提供你們內機內控上可以確保"},{"start":8804.703,"end":8816.793,"text":"該科目在年度預算被凍結後的所餘金額是就該金額去執行,不會執行超過凍結內的金額。好不好?好,那麼以上,來,周委員請。"},{"start":8819.09,"end":8840.924,"text":"另外我想請教執行長就是因為其實這個凍結只有凍結50萬跟你這個原來113年的編列是14億9千4百多萬元這其實是個非常小的數字我是不知道這個凍結50萬元現在是有影響到你們法服基金會的哪個業務嗎你是哪個業務需要這50萬可以請說明一下"},{"start":8845.695,"end":8867.875,"text":"請周執行長瞭解問題試著回答主席跟各位委員報告第一個部分就是我們這個部分我們之後會回覆黃委員我們執行的進度但是應該有百分之九十幾以上第二個部分翁委員垂詢的部分因為我們相關的凍結的預算我們就沒有凍資所以如果大院這邊沒有准以凍結的話我們就會繳回司法院然後這個司法院會去做統籌的處理"},{"start":8869.943,"end":8877.629,"text":"好那因為我們目前在進行的是報告事項第二案的查照案那因為委員會不接受我們那個"},{"start":8879.154,"end":8902.257,"text":"機關代表所提出的這些補充資料那主席在這邊因為他是屬於我們立法院的關係文書那目前呢除了在場人員之外也有線上的觀賞的國民呢他們在關心那目前我們立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會的會議報告及討論事項的關係文書我手上的這一本目前我們處理的是進行第二案"},{"start":8902.737,"end":8931.724,"text":"那第2案的文書的頁碼當中關於第7案的部分是關於資訊處的部分那他們更新的資料是在第10頁第10頁的部分那麼那以及第11頁第4案的部分第11頁是在處理刑事審判行政當中裡面關於國民法官制度為了幫減變造成實力上的平衡所做的一些預算支應以及第"},{"start":8934.764,"end":8949.728,"text":"18頁包括了這個對不起這邊的預算內容因為第18頁第18頁他沒有寫到凍結數那麼以及第31頁講的是法律輔助基金會他凍結50萬的致應情形以及第35頁"},{"start":8963.154,"end":8989.795,"text":"第35頁是屬於科技監控設備凍結了100萬以及第41頁也是國民法官制度當中提高職業律師法輔律師的接案意願的相關經費凍結了50萬元那由於這個第二案的查詔案這些內容我們委員會不接受所以我們從第三案"},{"start":8990.771,"end":9007.656,"text":"至第7案,我們就今天無法處理,令定期處理。接下來我們繼續處理討論事項第一案的預算解凍案。本案前於本屆第一會期本會第21次全體委員會議排定討論,報告及詢答完畢,並決議令定期繼續處理。"},{"start":9014.498,"end":9041.925,"text":"由於本日議程報告事項第二案的來函更正書面資料委員會是不予被查請問針對討論事項第一案司法院有沒有補充說明還是要跟委員說明因為我們現在手上要處理討論事項第一案的討論資料司法院送來的部分我們已經不予被查了所以我們在進行這案的部分我先請教委員會對於前面"},{"start":9042.93,"end":9044.531,"text":"因為前面已經有結論了嘛"},{"start":9056.894,"end":9083.575,"text":"所以第一案在邏輯上面結論就很清楚就沒辦法接受就是第一案我們討論事項的討論基礎機關所送來的書面資料內容我們就不能夠作為我們處理的一個參考那現在我們就進行第一案第一案有沒有要做說明我們現在的第一案就是說對於討論上第一案委員會還有沒有其他意見要詢問"},{"start":9085.779,"end":9092.225,"text":"那對於第一案是否同意?不同意那那個機關代表有沒有報告?"},{"start":9096.108,"end":9125.026,"text":"主席以及各位因為這一件上次的時候我就提到過了他那件上次如果我們不用新的資料就是用舊的資料新的資料我們是把每一個具體個案比如說你為什麼查不到我們就直接做說明了那上次的那個報告裡面是沒有提到具體個案因為我們認為本來做一個通案性的改良就好了那上次我已經提到過第一個是林淑穎委員查不到那查不到我說這個查詢的東西是很簡單的查不到現在馬上開電腦直接下去查"},{"start":9125.686,"end":9154.913,"text":"那直接下去查零尾那個因為那個是一大概是去年的事情那我問同說為什麼可以這樣子查不到啊事實上因為那個是可能因為我們的機器是有分流的比如說他可能有好幾步的查詢的因為這樣分流其中一步是查不到可是另外一步可能就查得到那我說這種就歸於自信處這個一定要跟人家講清楚好啊如果查不到我們現在新的裡面事實上裡面也有那我們就在加強說你查不到的時候上面有個信箱可以馬上回復我說這才是最重要的"},{"start":9155.433,"end":9167.792,"text":"那另外的就是黃委員提出上次那件那件我們也是非常感謝黃委員的指教可是那件的時候是高院沒有上傳而且我在會場上就已經有說過了那個是高院沒有上傳"},{"start":9168.649,"end":9187.438,"text":"那我覺得說我們如果在這個案件的就是案件的凍結預算我們最好是找到比較好的源頭而且即使高雲我也沒有說要去凍結高雲預算因為有一些如果可以很簡單的解決問題比如說就跟我們講了那當初跟我們講了以後我馬上打電話回去說跟高雲講一下結果那個不到一天就已經上來了"},{"start":9188.078,"end":9188.098,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":9206.539,"end":9208.821,"text":"謝謝機關代表的說明還是跟委員會報告今天我們的報告事項第三案到第七案"},{"start":9224.798,"end":9254.118,"text":"都是基於上次在凍結解凍案要處理的時候因為有委員有不同意見要求提供更進一步的資料所以呢今天司法院也提供了相關的資料放在報告事項第2案的查照案但是查照案委員能有意見所以本委員會沒有辦法受理所以呢接下來第3案到第7案的報告事項等於就接受委員會的異議就都不予處理我們另定期處理"},{"start":9255.379,"end":9275.636,"text":"現在剛剛資訊處長的報告是討論事項的第一案那討論事項第一案是上次委員會也是黃委員有提出一些指教要求要進行說明那我想資訊處剛剛是口頭的說明但是您的書面補充了意見那因為還是有委員表示不予接受"},{"start":9276.957,"end":9297.998,"text":"是不接受不看你提供的補充資料來處理上次是要看你的補充資料再來進行處理那你補充的資料現在補充的不看那我們要處理那由於呢剛剛有委員提出異議仍有意見所以討論事項預算解凍案做如下決議本案另定期繼續處理"},{"start":9302.383,"end":9321.091,"text":"好!那麼現在我們進行討論事項第二案繼續審查司法院函請審議行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案。前今113年11月25日本會期本會第16次全體委員會議報告及詢答完畢決議另定期繼續審查。源於今日繼續審查提案條文遷移宣讀完畢。"},{"start":9322.452,"end":9340.598,"text":"好 那麼現在呢由於提案條文已經宣讀完畢了我們現在進行討論那請委員提有沒有什麼要詢問在場委員本案是否要先進行大體討論還是直接進入逐條審查那委員會的意見如何來請 王航委員"},{"start":9342.955,"end":9359.087,"text":"上次這個行政法院組織法我詢答的時候我就請教你們考試院所提出來的意見那個考試院今天有代表來嗎?今天有請考試院的代表來嗎?"},{"start":9361.826,"end":9386.597,"text":"我們今天剛剛已經跟委員會說明了今天的列席機關代表名冊目前有全序部兩位一位是法規司料專門委員一位是全審司的臨檢論視察是不是請考試院說明一下因為你們上次針對這種聘用的是不是可以有關等你們有提出你們考試院書面的意見嗎"},{"start":9387.897,"end":9408.842,"text":"我是看了你們書面的意見了以後我就覺得很狐疑啊考試院的立場已經白紙黑字寫得這麼明確了那司法院是不知道還是決定要無視還是考試院現在司法院有去溝通那考試院願意在這個地方放特例是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":9410.749,"end":9422.774,"text":"因為黃委員的這樣的詢問應該是屬於大體討論的部分那是不是請我們全序部是廖專委還是凌檢視察要做說明那等一等 翁委員先詢問 那請一併 待會一併說明"},{"start":9425.154,"end":9439.471,"text":"是我想請教我有一個問題啦就說因為稅務審查事件法還是稅務審查案件法這個法案我們都還沒有審但可是呢現在又要審這個行政法院組織法要增加稅務審查官"},{"start":9441.433,"end":9459.278,"text":"邏輯上面會不會這個不通因為應該是要稅務審查事件法那邊可能那邊要先審查通過之後然後再來討論這個才有意義啊否則我們現在今天這個討論行政法院組織法要增加這個稅務稅務審查官結果最後這個稅務行政事件審理法沒有通過這不是很怪"},{"start":9466.36,"end":9468.422,"text":"因為今天我們的條文修正部分包括這個章名8個修正條文包括兩個副表"},{"start":9482.515,"end":9505.967,"text":"那其中我們現在進行大體討論所以主席跟委員會做說明除了第10條第15條是跟稅務行政案件審理法沒有直接相關那其他的的確都是跟稅審法相關那由於稅審法在我們本委員會排審後已經完成了公聽會也進行了5條審查但是目前的狀況呢那就還是在審查當中有辦過公聽會嗎那請來黃委員"},{"start":9510.868,"end":9531.208,"text":"有辦過公聽會沒錯,但沒有進行主條審查吧。就是有辦過公聽會了。對啊,那現在的問題我覺得委員提的很有道理啊。你現在這個行政法院組織法,基本上就是配合稅審法來一起做修正。那我們現在不可能把它割離做處理啊。"},{"start":9533.14,"end":9549.065,"text":"我們完全不可能把它割離做處理所以我是直接提議今天這個行政法院的組織法等到設審法排案的時候一併做審查那要不然這樣子的審查真的根本欠缺最原始的基礎"},{"start":9550.725,"end":9568.817,"text":"謝謝黃委員的指教所以我剛剛已經主席有宣布了嘛今天的這一張名八條文二副表當中的第十條跟第十五條是跟稅審法無關它這裡面的內容呢關於第十條是對於法官助理法官助理禁用法官助理的規定"},{"start":9569.737,"end":9596.417,"text":"增加約用人員第15條也是一樣最高行政法院領選禁用法官助理的規定這兩條跟稅審法無關還是要跟我們說明因為本席是在上週五才接獲倫茲召委吳宗憲委員他的提議因為他的身體情況希望今天的會議跟本週式的會議改由本席來代為就是對調我們的主席"},{"start":9597.694,"end":9621.112,"text":"的程序所以我今天呢是臨時在星期五呢排定了這個條文就是行政法院組織法那成如委員會有委員表達其他的相關條文都跟我們委員會審議當中的稅成法相關所以呢是不是我們建議今天是處理第10條跟第15條看委員會的意見因為現在還在大體討論的部分來請黃委員"},{"start":9623.584,"end":9624.084,"text":"謝謝因為條文內容我們委員會過去也經常有這樣的情況"},{"start":9643.564,"end":9665.394,"text":"那如果我們今天能夠有對於不相跟稅審法無關的第10條跟第15條純粹是高等行政法院跟最高行政法院領選禁用法官助理的規定先予通過那我們下次的其他條文再由配合稅審法一併審理那委員會覺得如何那請"},{"start":9667.421,"end":9690.31,"text":"是行政法院組織如果這樣的話不是也是浪費大家的時間因為等於說下一次還要再針對其他的條文再談一次對因為如果說當時這個法案是第10條第15條他是就是獨立的一個法案那我覺得這樣子的運作會比較清楚而且也比較有效率那我們今天浪費了花很多時間討論了第10條第15條他們也不可能先送出去嗎還是按依照您的意思變成說還是要等到"},{"start":9696.392,"end":9721.806,"text":"這個其他的條文都審查通過之後才可以一併送出是嗎我還是在這強調因為本次會期本來預算會期就會用時間大部分的時間來處理預算案那麼由於本主席召委輪值的預算案都已經審議完畢現在吳召委請我接手今天的議程我也不可能去處理"},{"start":9725.651,"end":9729.696,"text":"吳釗偉分配預算案的審理是基於釗偉互相尊重的原則"},{"start":9731.55,"end":9757.181,"text":"主席只能就我所負責的機關範圍的解凍案以及法律案的審議那剛剛已經說過了我們委員會呢要日有所進那今天這個案子了解委員會了解的是除了第10條第15條都跟稅審法有關但畢竟日期有功啊我們第10條如果第15條處理了那後續再安排不管哪位召委安排審、稅審法"},{"start":9758.682,"end":9765.831,"text":"可能是下個會期了,我也不清楚那麼審稅審法的時候其他的條文就可以並同來審議還是有達到節約的效果還有跟委員說明我們剛剛大部分的時間在處理查詔案現在才進行討論事項第二案的處理"},{"start":9773.399,"end":9799.653,"text":"所以是不是要就第10條跟第15條如果大家覺得大致上沒有意見我們下次如果跟稅審法併案審理的時候這第10條第15條我們就不用再審理了那還是跟委員說明今天我們的主條不會進入到送出委員會的程度請放心我們主席在主持的時候一定充分尊重我們委員會的表示意見那我想既然大家來了"},{"start":9800.413,"end":9810.243,"text":"那我們上午的會議時間到12點之前是否同意我們繼續就第10條第15條與稅審法無關的條文我們先來進行討論來請黃總長而為此本來的建議等到稅審法進來的時候再一併處理以上"},{"start":9820.935,"end":9838.373,"text":"請問其他委員是否有意見?黃委員基本上我也附議黃委員的看法主要是因為下個會期也不知道是不是中委員您繼續擔任召委所以如果說在下個會期不同的召委的時候可能又要重新再討論一遍那這樣的話我覺得也是"},{"start":9841.796,"end":9868.984,"text":"就是我們今天討論這個變得沒有很大的意義而且可能也沒有達到實質的效果但我們早上其實討論預算案也花了蠻多時間今天大家都蠻盡力的所以就這個部分就今天的行政法院組織法我也基本上認為說我們就等到之後再來討論等到稅審法那裡有更清楚的這個進度了之後我們再來討論這個案子然後也讓司法院的同仁們可以早點回去辦公啊"},{"start":9872.142,"end":9892.148,"text":"對不起王委員你最後一句話我就不太理解了今天大家來這裡就是要進我們委員會審查的一個義務那司法院機關代表他們也是配合本院的審查他們必須列席那現在呢我們過去對於我們委員會寶貴的時間我們都要做有效的運用那現在還未達12點"},{"start":9893.388,"end":9920.683,"text":"那因為呢也有其他委員今天撥控就是按照我們的議程就來審查法案那明明第10條第15條就跟稅審法無關那大家如果還是執意要提早下課那我也只能尊重委員會多數委員的一個的決定啦但是我還是要強調的今天大家不是常常說嗎今天來到委員會我們就盡我們的職責來進行法案的審議我還是提醒"},{"start":9921.403,"end":9939.421,"text":"本來本周不是主席輪值召委所要來處理的那因此本席所預定要安排的相關的程序是在明年所要進行處理那竟然今天主席這邊安排的這個法案還是懇請委員會能夠就無爭議的條文"},{"start":9942.444,"end":9962.175,"text":"我們可以有效的運用寶貴的會議時間將它審理完均那至於其他條文不管是本會期的研會時間還是臨時會期間臨時會恐怕就不一定了那研會可能還有機會處理或者是下個會期由當時的召委他們再來拍案審查那至少"},{"start":9962.935,"end":9990.282,"text":"本席在主持本會期的會議時間我們沒有做浪費我們真的就是把我們該做的事情做完交給後面的人去後續處理那我也是盡了我們的本分至少我們今天日有所盡我們就有進度了請問陳委員或其他委員有沒有對於第10條或第15條希望了解我們機關代表他們的修法意見"},{"start":9993.615,"end":10015.06,"text":"好主席那個如果說第10條跟第15條跟稅審法是無關的話我們是不是因為還有大概40幾分的時間是不是先可以就這兩條先來做這個初步的了解一下那我想如果我們在本日會議時間屆滿前我們繼續進行審議應該與會的委員都會同意啦我們來請"},{"start":10022.306,"end":10031.361,"text":"說明一下剛剛已經有兩位委員對於要繼續先抽離兩條出來處理表示不同的看法請主席尊重"},{"start":10032.427,"end":10032.967,"text":"請主席尊重"},{"start":10060.23,"end":10085.205,"text":"好 謝謝來羅委員請表示意見我覺得齁各有其理啦但是基本上跟稅審法一起來是比較符合邏輯啦所以我也想說當然企業辛苦召委齁因為吳宗憲委員他眼睛有突發的狀況他沒有辦法來呃召集今天的會議齁所以也很感謝宗嘉賓召委齁代替就跟吳宗憲委員換次序齁"},{"start":10086.266,"end":10093.959,"text":"既然這邊也沒有達成共識那就按照這邊多數的委員的意見來處理以上請主席參佐"},{"start":10096.462,"end":10124.725,"text":"好跟委員說明因為本委員會的慣例我們盡量的來配合遵守預算審議我們盡量採共識決那也很感謝預算審議到目前為止不管是吳宗憲召集委員還是本主席我們都是用共識決但是議程的推進現在是法案的審查那如果說大家對於法條的內容願意做一個共識的方式提報到院會"},{"start":10126.326,"end":10152.709,"text":"主席這邊也會尊重但是今天是就今日議程是否繼續推動有不同意見那我們就要做議程上的處理了因為我們本討論事項是第二案那本討論事項的條文目前本來還在大體討論的範圍但是呢有委員認為儘管裡面第10條第15條跟稅審法無關仍然可以處理但是仍然有委員表達"},{"start":10153.65,"end":10179.74,"text":"希望今天全部的行政法院組織法全部的不予處理那就是對議程推進的不同意見所以主席就要進行議程的處理了那麼因為議程今天的討論事項就是這一案現在處理這一案那如果不打算討論下去那是否有委員要動議停止討論那我們本主席就會按照議事推動的方式來徵詢"},{"start":10186.368,"end":10197.276,"text":"沒有人要提停止討論那沒有人要停止討論我們就繼續討論那繼續討論那我們就請主席這邊就第10條的部分我們請機關代表做說明"},{"start":10205.658,"end":10221.535,"text":"沒有人要停止討論啊我跟大家說啦今天已經非常過去在這本委員會是誰在提停止討論動議的是誰不到時間就急著要散會的這些程序的問題過去在本委員會多有爭議"},{"start":10222.734,"end":10246.226,"text":"最後都是訴諸表決處理如果連停止討論連散會動議都不敢提出來就要在12點之前我們法定開會時間就要提早下課去處理其他個人的事情還是其他政黨的事情我想原用我們在場委員有的常說的現在我們看到的轉播很多全國的民眾都在看"},{"start":10247.202,"end":10264.008,"text":"立法院：立法委員支應國家公帑有沒有盡責的在進行他的立法相關的職權業務那今天現在11點22分目前我們首投的這一案子是本日議程討論事項第二案也是最後一個案子明明有時間"},{"start":10265.595,"end":10292.922,"text":"委員不願意討論那又不提停止討論又不提上會動議主席只好遵照主席應有的職權提請機關代表就本案有共識跟稅審法無關的第10條跟第15條請機關代表先說明再請委員表示意見來王委員請剛剛主席喔說得非常的好我們都在領人民的公帑"},{"start":10294.557,"end":10315.724,"text":"不得在領人民的公帑所以我們幾位委員從早上9點開始開會做到這裡請問我們幾位委員所提的意見認為行政法院組織法應該司法院是整個提來這邊不太適合抽離兩條出來討論這樣子的"},{"start":10319.4,"end":10340.092,"text":"建議被我們剛剛的會議主席把他說明成說是什麼我們要急著下班那就對啊剛剛主席講得很好啊那就請大家看看嘛從今天早上9點到現在哪些委員在現場嘛哪些委員是連來都沒來啊連來都沒來啊現在坐在現場的委員"},{"start":10347.287,"end":10371.382,"text":"要糟蹋我們的主席這樣冷言冷語對不起啊我沒辦法接受啊大家看清楚嘛不用九點坐到這邊我離開的時候主席說什麼他喊休息喊休息的是主席喔按照你的規定喊了休息我跑去經濟委員會人事同意權的審查"},{"start":10372.745,"end":10391.176,"text":"我完成了主委跟副主委的審查今天反而有很多在經濟跟司法法制委員會聯席同意權的是連問都沒有去問的我利用休息的時間完成了兩場人事同意權的審查反而到本委員會來繼續開會"},{"start":10393.815,"end":10412.983,"text":"結果我剛剛跟其他的委員的提議行政院法院組織法我們反對這樣割裂處理主持剛剛在發言的時候把它講成什麼講成我們好像要提早下班太可笑了那如果是這樣子的話大家看清楚啊從早上9點到現在幾點啊11點25啊是哪些委員連現身都沒現身啊"},{"start":10419.824,"end":10432.397,"text":"都只要看清楚,從早上9點到現在11點25是哪些委員連現身都沒現身從第一個報告事項的案子到現在討論事項的案子連出席都不出席"},{"start":10435.54,"end":10462.459,"text":"跟委員說明剛剛委員的發言充分說明了今天本會委員同一時間有經濟委員會跟司法法制委員會聯席的審查至於委員要選擇先到哪一個他應該去的委員會去進行職權這是委員會各自先後順序剛剛發言的委員也說明了他也抽空去聯席委員會表達意見了那麼今天我們也看到了有非本會委員到場"},{"start":10463.88,"end":10478.957,"text":"那今天委員會是對全院委員公開委員只要在立法院院內只要8個委員會有排定議程每位委員都有權利去執行他的職權所交付的任務"},{"start":10479.938,"end":10507.571,"text":"那麼至於現在在不在場的委員他是否同一時間在其他委員會我們主席這邊不敢斷論所以呢我還是要提醒目前我們在12點上午法定時間用慶之前我們有時間那如果有委員認為主席依照既定的議程推進有不同意見大家可以透過變更議程的方式來進行表達主席在這裡尊重委員會的決定"},{"start":10509.032,"end":10510.133,"text":"請問翁委員要發言嗎?請本席今天提出來這個案子之所以建議先暫時不審的原因就在於"},{"start":10520.759,"end":10523.482,"text":"稅審法到現在為止我們也還沒有進入到主條討論所以是給主席一個建議而且當時稅審法我記得也是您朋友排公聽會如果說今天我們是真的想要審這個行政法院組織法的話也可以把稅審法也可以先排進來審"},{"start":10539.238,"end":10546.501,"text":"所以這都是全責都是這個主席您的這個議程的安排只是我們認為說現在審這個行政法院組織法它的確是會產生一個割裂的狀況更何況我們今天就算是審了這兩個條文到了下個會期同樣的可能下一次的總召又不認我們今天的討論"},{"start":10559.085,"end":10563.647,"text":"所以重複的一直在討論這個法案那麼更何況我們今天早上和幾位委員都是從早就做到這邊做到現在我們也審了預算案那麼接下來也針對法案的到底要不要繼續去審理進行討論那麼我認為"},{"start":10578.712,"end":10580.814,"text":"張偉說我們沒有盡責,浪費公帑,想提前散會。我覺得您這樣的發言是很不適當的。我們來看看這個會期"},{"start":10594.79,"end":10599.996,"text":"科建民總召他有一次有到過我們司委會來開會嗎?對,我們也是體諒說他老人家身體不好,腳不方便。那麼如果這樣講的話,他從這個會期到現在他都沒有進到我們司委會來開過會耶。"},{"start":10612.082,"end":10614.724,"text":"是不是?這個話不能這麼說,我們今天是要想說是針對行政法院組織法的這兩個,這個這些條文,您剛剛說的第10條、第15條,就算是討論了。那之後呢?之後是下一個會期,這個可能要重新要再來過。"},{"start":10630.11,"end":10642.002,"text":"到底要不要停止討論要不要散會這件事情當然是主席您這裡就可以做主啊那如果說是您不想要變更議程"},{"start":10645.491,"end":10662.911,"text":"繼續討論那我們就是就是現在這樣一個狀態然後大家就可以針對這個案子討論的與否適當性來進行討論就沒有什麼太大的這個作用了這部分的話我是要這個要求就是"},{"start":10665.277,"end":10685.444,"text":"主席您剛剛的那樣發言基本上是不公平不公允的我們今天那麼多的委員坐在這裡那民進黨的委員從頭到尾只有陳俊宇委員一個人坐在這裡後來賴委員也來了可是不能說因為我們說要暫時停止討論的這個案子然後你就說我們又浪費你提議要暫時停止討論嗎先等大家討論完之後再說所以你同意繼續討論謝謝委員同意繼續討論這個部分的話是你這邊"},{"start":10694.995,"end":10722.46,"text":"王委員你又不要繼續討論先請等大家把話都發言完之後呢再說我是接續你的發言那先做說明我們立法院是屆期不連續不是會期不連續所以在屆期當中的不同會期所做的委員會的審查在當屆期都是持續有效的憑此說明那接下來是不是那個羅委員要發言嗎然後拜託那個陳委員待會我要發言請謝謝"},{"start":10725.799,"end":10747.677,"text":"其實真的是給主席一個勸告啦我真的你不要這樣洗臉無私謠這樣不好為什麼呢今天我們沒有拿像我就不會拿什麼在場委員不想開會這件事做文章就像你講的嘛每個委員會委員在審案的時候像今天也有聯席委員會啊"},{"start":10748.617,"end":10776.943,"text":"每個委員他們有自己的一個排程到底要怎麼做所以今天我覺得我也不會拿吳思堯不在場來做文章可是你今天竟然說我們實際上在討論的這個處理議程的方式好像又是變成是我們不想開會當薪水小偷那你不是做主席你這樣子去定性別人不就是節外生枝嗎那如果你不是節外生枝那我只能解讀你跟吳思堯有仇啊那為什麼吳思堯不在的時候你要特別提這個題目呢"},{"start":10777.463,"end":10802.174,"text":"所以我跟主席是勸告啦就是說你主持意識齁這個情緒也好或是立場也好還是要保持一點中立性啦那我剛剛已經講過我也沒說你講的不對嘛我說你的你要所謂的包裹式對不對齁要切割式齁你要去來去看這個法案但是實際上今天審的法案裡面就是主要就有談到稅審法的部分"},{"start":10802.714,"end":10821.63,"text":"那我們認為今天為了所謂的體系上以及我們在思考法律的規章上的所謂的那種效益跟一致性來講我覺得其實等到稅審法今天有進度之後或是你優先把稅審法先把它進度處理完之後我們並同今天的法案一起處理"},{"start":10822.991,"end":10836.326,"text":"我也不認為這個道理沒有站不住腳啊那既然你要講你一定要堅持你的道理站得住腳那你也不要說今天別人提出的道理之後就是變成是今天我不想開會我想回家休息我想要當薪水小偷了"},{"start":10838.709,"end":10863.82,"text":"那你剛剛到這種程度來講其實你就失去主席中立性嘛我才說今天我就覺得很奇怪啊你如果不是因為你就是有點情緒上的問題失去主席中立性那我就很好奇是不是你跟吳思堯有仇啊你為什麼要在這個吳思堯不在的時候特別去提薪水小偷這種概念啊大家不想開會這種概念這種概念這樣的話我們三個在那邊開會那吳思堯在那邊開會你不是打臉他了我還是要強調一件事喔"},{"start":10867.381,"end":10882.822,"text":"我沒有拿這個事做文章但是是你拿這個事做文章我就要講標準不一致啊因為我就要尊重每個委員在委員會上大家的一個安排的一個方式嘛那今天你不能挑著吳士堯不在使用這種方式我為吳士堯抱屈啊謝謝"},{"start":10884.303,"end":10901.651,"text":"謝謝羅委員我們主席都尊重委員的發言內容那也請羅委員記得您的這番話那主席只是說既然目前有在場的多數委員認為有多數的優勢那你要停止討論要散會都悉聽尊便主席已經遵照多數的決議那現在我請那個陳委員代理一下我要做第10條跟第15條的一個發言"},{"start":10916.569,"end":10944.359,"text":"好 謝謝主席那麼因為第10條是高等行政法院製法官以及他這裡的條文內容主要是法官助理的部分那第15條也是就最高行政法院的法官助理的部分進行這些條文的修正是否因為現在大陸討論時間是否能夠請機關代表分別就第10條及第15條未來對於高等行政法院跟最高行政法院的運作上會有什麼樣的需求請進行說明"},{"start":10946.493,"end":10946.513,"text":"請蜂擬雙"},{"start":10950.406,"end":10974.296,"text":"有關於第10條還有第15條草案的修正這個其實立法那個意旨主要是讓法官助理的禁用可以多元化因為我們現在是只有聘用然後希望可以再增加約用這個途徑那在我國的法院它有普通法院跟行政法院這兩個系統那其實相關的這個規定"},{"start":10978.018,"end":10997.359,"text":"在法院組織法113年11月29日通過已經有相同的規定我們現在是在行政法院組織法也就是行政法院系統加上相同的規定這以上說明"},{"start":11000.53,"end":11002.431,"text":"好請忠教兵召委好請副秘書長"},{"start":11030.275,"end":11043.507,"text":"主席這部分是容我請那個主管的那個廳長來說明好請我們李大任廳長嗎好請我們陳介廳陳廳長司法行政廳我們高廳長"},{"start":11053.073,"end":11066.826,"text":"主席好各位委員好那有關這個法官助理的聘用跟約用的區別呢簡單來跟各位委員說明就是聘用呢他會佔用我們的原額就是中央政府機關總原額法中所規定的原額那約用呢他是用勞基法來雇用的"},{"start":11073.032,"end":11076.594,"text":"使用的經費,聘用是用人事費,約用是用業務費。在契約的性質來看,我們聘用法官助理是一年一聘。約用的法官助理就是依照勞基法的規定,他可能有臨時性、短期性、季節性、特定性的話是定期契約,有繼續性的話就是不定期契約。"},{"start":11100.047,"end":11111.597,"text":"有關契約的期間,依照聘用條例第5條,也可以來做續聘。約用的法官助理,除了勞基法所規定的情形之外,原則上是不得終止契約。"},{"start":11115.498,"end":11139.454,"text":"另外呢,就這個年資可不可以提敘的部分呢,聘用的法官助理呢,他改任公務員之後,他的年資是可以提敘的,那月用法官助理沒有這樣的規定。那再來就是有關這個,如果在契約期間併顧或者是因公傷亡的部分,撫恤金的部分呢,這個聘用的法官助理可以依照這個聘用"},{"start":11140.174,"end":11140.695,"text":"請莊嘉斌召委"},{"start":11157.545,"end":11180.092,"text":"主席我所知道的目前法院用法柱不是只有行政法院而已那事實上其實雖然表面上這是行政法院組織法第10條第15條對於高等行政法院跟最高行政法院禁用法柱的禁用方式的多一個路徑那事實上牽涉到的是全體我們司法院所屬各級法院在法"},{"start":11180.532,"end":11180.952,"text":"主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會"},{"start":11198.061,"end":11214.107,"text":"那如果這個禁用的管道是可行的那未來在稅審法我們的這個稅務專業法庭他在禁用相關人力的時候也可以援引辦理他的重要性絕對不是一個行政法院組織法部分條文兩個條文的問題而已他牽涉到的是我們"},{"start":11219.028,"end":11247.967,"text":"司法院所有全體的法院在禁用法官助理的時候是多了一個約用的方式可以進行而約用跟聘用人員他們在相關的權益法律保障法律保障的權益上是有差別的他們身份屬性也有差別的剛剛陳儒說明的情況他們在未來的差勤、試駕、試病駕的管理一些的權益呢都是有差別的那如果不把這個差別予以的法治化"},{"start":11248.467,"end":11264.553,"text":"那未來法官助理在禁用就會受到這個限制那也不能有不同的需求的人員進來有些因應著約用跟聘用身份的差異所做的這些差別所以我要強調的就是說今天這10條第15條如果能夠在委員會裡面予以肯認"},{"start":11269.255,"end":11294.406,"text":"那未來我們司法院其他法院的組織法如果要對於法官助理的部分多開闢一個約用的管道將會是我們不只是法官的減輕法官的負擔也是能夠提升我們的訴訟品質更重要的可以增進我們全體國人在接受司法服務的時候他能得到的一個相對應的待遇"},{"start":11295.066,"end":11312.947,"text":"所以這個法座的爭取不是單純的幫人家找工作也不是單純的減輕法官的負擔是提升我們全體國民他們在司法訴訟上應得的品質所以呢我覺得今天在委員會審理這第10條第15條非常的重要如果這兩條能夠委員會能夠肯認"},{"start":11316.01,"end":11342.768,"text":"那我剛剛講的未來法院禁用其他的法柱就多了一條路甚至我們現在專業法庭要使用其他聘用人員以外的約用性質的人員也多了一個選擇對我們整體司法人力的補充是有非常重要的貢獻我還是要強調的儘管現在社會民眾對於我們司法審判有不同的評價但是無異的大家的共識就是目前我們司法院包括法官書記官等等他們的過勞是一個事實"},{"start":11346.27,"end":11346.49,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11368.145,"end":11392.373,"text":"現在司法法制委員會另外最多數的兩黨的委員不在場但是我相信儘管他們不在場今天你們的說明其他委員的一些的詢問都有助於國人同胞瞭解我們在改善提升我們司法訴訟品質保障國人司法權益我們所做的努力所以我希望你們待會的解釋一定要把這個部分的強加的說明"},{"start":11392.933,"end":11397.076,"text":"好,針對莊嘉斌召委所推行的部分那我們是請司法院相關部會的首長可以做一個強加的一個說明"},{"start":11422.27,"end":11438.304,"text":"我們非常感謝那個中委員對於這兩條那個條文就是他對於整個制度所發生這個變革的那個支持那確實就是因為我們在那個總額法的那個限制底下呢就是我們那個就是除了這個聘用"},{"start":11438.984,"end":11440.085,"text":"司法院人事處補充報告"},{"start":11463.72,"end":11464.02,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11484.375,"end":11509.021,"text":"目前的聘用的法官助理他是必須佔用機關總原額的然後但是呢如果是在修正條文約用法官助理他是不需要佔用機關原額的對那因為在前者聘用法官助理這部分呢他在佔用機關原額的情況之下那因為我們現在的這個法官呢我們配置法官助理的方式是每一個法官一定會有一個法官助理"},{"start":11510.882,"end":11524.335,"text":"警長或審判長三位有配一個法官助理所以我們全國2290幾位法官現在的法官助理用聘用方式是1924人那等於是說佔我們這個機關總額的將近是十分之一就是我們現在14000多人來講的話那所以呢這個情況"},{"start":11533.044,"end":11543.515,"text":"如果說跟隨著審判核心人力的增加那相較於這個輔助人力它勢必也會相對應的提高可是在原額非常有限的情況之下像我們今年在114年預算原額編列完畢之後我們的整個機關總原額的上限只剩下264人那其實這個在我們進來因為我們從108年底"},{"start":11556.167,"end":11577.693,"text":"那個第一波的這個中央監管總原額提高以後我們有大量的要禁用這個法官所以我們有提報考試那提報考試之後就相對的就要禁用法官助理所以如果在這樣一個循環循環的情況之下那原額又在有限的一個高限那很快的我們的法官可能就會沒有法官助理那沒有法官助理就會影響到剛剛招集員提到的有關於人民對於訴訟的這個禁用權還有"},{"start":11584.375,"end":11585.016,"text":"司法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":11604.608,"end":11627.751,"text":"我們會慢慢的去替換就是說將這個控下來的聘用的法官助理這部分的員額可以再回流到審判核心人力或者其他的審判這個比較靠近核心的周邊人力比方說像司法事務官那這樣子對於整個司法系統的人力運用是一個相當有助益的一個禁用方式"},{"start":11628.671,"end":11648.027,"text":"好,謝謝陳處長的說明,重點就是什麼,現在如果只有聘用人員的管道,這些聘用人員主要佔寶貴的機關員額,而機關員額最好是用來聘用法官、書記官等這些公務人力,那至於助理人力可以用約用的方式來禁用,就不會佔用到我們寶貴的機關員,是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":11650.609,"end":11662.358,"text":"現在證券委員意見,如果大家對於第10條跟第15條部分認為重要,那麼是不是我們就從廣泛討論當中抽出我們第10條跟第15條進行逐條討論?請問第10條的逐條討論大家同意嗎?同意,那麼第10條如果逐條討論沒有其他不同意見,我們第10條就叫修正條文通過。接下來我們處理第15條,第15條請問在場我們進行逐條討論,請問對15條有其他討論意見嗎?"},{"start":11678.612,"end":11682.374,"text":"沒有,那我們第15條就按照我們修正條文內容通過。好,由於上午會議時間將屆,那麼本次會議進行到此。那麼討論事項第二案做如下決議,另定期繼續審查。現在散會,謝謝大家。"},{"start":11704.963,"end":11706.345,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"158515","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158515","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0c23ff620c2aaa4e17ba98e9ef8f04f2cd9c2d0a04e685e49179242d67ddf0c495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:37:24 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呃 諸位啊我這邊想要誠摯的建議你你不只應該要講而且要講得更大聲而且你應該要更明確的告訴大家接下來到底什麼項目會受到影響那剛剛其實有很多委員提到說"},{"start":89.928,"end":110.856,"text":"這個說他們砍了3700億中央部會的預算然後又地方的補助還不能少那什麼意思代表說你們中央接下來沒錢但你們還是要做事那地方拿了錢卻可以不做事這個理論我聽了是覺得非常荒謬啊其實大家知道編預算是先有事才有錢"},{"start":111.716,"end":137.296,"text":"你要知道要做什麼你才來編預算啊怎麼會地方拿了這三成之後不知道要做什麼但是告訴你說中央的錢不能少你們要做的事情還是得繼續做有這種道理嗎那剛剛我聽到幾個更荒謬的啊他們非常敢做不敢當就是說你在地方上不准你講不准我們主委在地方告訴大家客委會的預算會減少"},{"start":139.498,"end":155.016,"text":"這個財化法三讀通過不是已經是既定的事實嗎?全台灣人民也都一清二楚為什麼不准我們不匯在地方張揚呢?什麼意思?這等於是說跟你洗劫一空但是還不准你張揚,不准你呼救"},{"start":156.355,"end":181.134,"text":"這完全是土匪的行徑我在這邊非常嚴厲的譴責那我也必須要拜託主委的是其實這些事情的討論就是到底要多少預算做多少事被砍了多少錢多少事情不能做這個都是應該在財化法討論的時候在委員會在院會就應該要清楚的討論而不是到現在先非常慌亂的這種強硬通過之後三讀了"},{"start":184.657,"end":209.255,"text":"到現在我們才在討論可能會影響什麼項目都太慢了都太遲了所以我要拜託主委的是客委會到底哪一些預算項目會明確的受到影響你們應該要清楚的告訴大眾而這些事權是不是應該跟地方政府趕快的來做討論告訴地方政府說這個錢回歸地方那事情也應該回歸地方啊"},{"start":210.396,"end":232.037,"text":"所以我要拜託主委也是客會其實今天回應的還是不夠清楚到底哪一些項目受到影響其實我們到現在也都還不知道因為你們還在決定嘛是這個意思嘛告訴大家說對真的會減少三成但是哪一些項目被刪了被砍了你們不知道是這樣子嗎"},{"start":232.918,"end":239.7,"text":"可不可以請主委回覆?我跟委員報告,就客家市增設案例的情況之下,28%為所要用的全部合理費的預算,包括資本門及金錢體的新的檢察案都被停下"},{"start":254.445,"end":256.027,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬單位預算"},{"start":270.46,"end":273.824,"text":"財政委員會提到強硬支持強硬貴賭企家家鄉部份的認輸及經費也會受到影響。因此,因此,因此,因此,因此,因此,因此,因此,因此"},{"start":290.657,"end":291.478,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":307.418,"end":330.972,"text":"好那再來還有點時間我跟主委請教一下這個最近有收到很多這個客家統戰團的消息我想要問主委有沒有手上有沒有相關的資訊那你有沒有掌握這種交流團那就我手上知道的資訊包括說全國的台聯主辦的2024年台灣青年客家文化演習然後中國國台辦"},{"start":332.113,"end":352.302,"text":"同戰部他們也有辦一個臺灣客籍子弟園鄉文化尋耕之旅這些很明確都是他們的統戰單位邀請臺灣的客家子弟來做以假文化交流之名行統戰之實的內容我不知道主委這邊有沒有掌握有的話你們有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":352.782,"end":360.426,"text":"我認為在一個平等準確的年責之下,我們可以錄一段考慮,但是那是違反的年責,我們也沒有統一。在客家委員會來說,目前不會去支持這樣的考慮的預算的補儲,所以目前我們先不做這樣的補儲。"},{"start":379.261,"end":407.513,"text":"好這個要拜託我因為這個其實是陸委會主管的業務但是我也希望說既然他都是特別針對客家的子弟而且大家也知道說中國現在特別喜歡針對台灣年輕人的首來族就是讓你在不知情的情況下邀請台灣的年輕人去交流把你當成統戰的樣板這個都是現在新聞都已經揭露的非常清楚的事實所以我也希望說客人會這邊也要有所掌握並且跟陸委會合作來協助管控這樣的風險好嗎"},{"start":408.553,"end":412.8,"text":"好,沒問題。感謝王美燕。好,謝謝主委。好,接下來請吳祈明委員。"}]}},{"id":"158514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158514","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0e5e2896a943ba6ba4f10c035d50fc648d9c2d0a04e685e49a189f99eb07134245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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﹏﹏"},{"start":241.638,"end":242.379,"text":"算,他是依法律義務。"},{"start":254.189,"end":268.623,"text":"好,那請問一下那會不會影響到發放?既然是法律義務支出。不會。好,不會。所以呢,原民會的新聞稿可能還要再重新加回去喔。我要講的是只剩一點點,他們的新聞稿寫14.5億欸。"},{"start":273.078,"end":287.75,"text":"我們這麼多的計畫原鄉最重視的聯外道路特色道路聚會所的興建那一些脆弱家庭還有那些房屋的修繕部落環境改善等等等幾百項怎麼辦這個怎麼辦"},{"start":293.965,"end":309.673,"text":"所以在這裡我要特別特別的我有邀請你們說特別是對我們的原鄉對我們原住民族人不論是地方的建設或者是這些福利措施所造成的影響至少我現在還沒看到很清楚的報告"},{"start":310.453,"end":335.371,"text":"所以這個部分麻煩主計總處還有財政部協助一下我還是希望看到因為我必須要給我的族人清楚的資訊要不然每天外面錯假資訊的圖卡滿天飛我也看不到政府出來去做正確的回應那我們也不知道要怎麼協助政府做正確的回應所以這個部分的資料我還是要趕快希望這幾天以內趕快寫出來給我"},{"start":339.093,"end":359.358,"text":"委員報告一下就是說原住民114年度的預算他有123.8億那扣除依法律義務的部分就是80.8億所以剩下的部分就是必須要3減28%所以我就緊張啊他們的新聞稿試算啊剩沒有多少錢啊"},{"start":360.538,"end":365.44,"text":"我之前問財政部的時候我有特別強調我不知道要怎麼刪是各部會平均公平的來刪一定的%數還是怎麼樣我不知道但是我有講"},{"start":386.79,"end":414.226,"text":"原鄉我們長期大家都知道我們是完全依賴過去中央政府的補助這個對我們的衝擊非常的大所以如果你們要統三用一定的比例統三我不能接受因為我對我們原鄉來講影響太大了我不能接受所以呢我站在原住民的立場我是強烈的反對現在這個版本的財劃法對我們影響非常大"},{"start":415.587,"end":442.257,"text":"所以我在這邊我想要了解一下我很關心行政院的反制措施那我先請教主計長如果預算是3減28%那你們又說不重編我覺得這個是互為矛盾那還有什麼樣的因應方式原則上是我們必須要比如說透過追加減的方式來做一個調整所以你要用追減預算吧"},{"start":443.713,"end":466.571,"text":"對,追檢預算那追檢預算要拖到什麼時候?下會期嗎?因為籌備預算時間是比較長那我們必須每一個部會每一個計畫都去討論它刪減的項目包括它補助地方的一個比率這個部分我們都必須要做檢討那這個部分影響不是一年而是每一年因為這是結構性的刪減所以每一年都要刪減3753億所以這個部分就會對我們影響很大"},{"start":470.734,"end":474.618,"text":"我請教一下行政院副秘書長請問行政院會提復議嗎?"},{"start":487.311,"end":507.629,"text":"目前我們是還沒有收到財劃法修正的公文那收到後的話我們會在憲政賦予的權利之下然後尋求各種的救濟程序那請問一下你們所謂的救濟措施有哪些目前都在研議當中那包括那個委員剛剛講的復育也是我們的研議方向之一"},{"start":508.129,"end":533.261,"text":"那什麼時候會清楚?其實我一再講的就是我們的人民不能夠讓他無所適從。我覺得政府的責任就是不要讓我們的人民無所適從。我覺得態度要很明確。所以什麼時候?因為我們還沒有收到財劃法的更新。那有沒有打算要提暫時處分?我們就且戰且走。"},{"start":535.826,"end":560.352,"text":"這部分應該也是演繹中的之一而已啦那憲法法庭呢?也是所以憲法法庭你可以等到憲法法庭釋憲的結果啟動的了嗎?但是這個我們都是在憲政的程序之下所救的救力程序他原來規定就是這樣子啊那我請教一下財政部部長"},{"start":561.843,"end":582.161,"text":"行政院有沒有可能再修財劃法?下個會期跟委員報告財劃法其實我們之前從今年初我們就開始一直努力包含指標的部分我們都一直在努力那現在因為立法院已經三讀通過財劃法的修正案那後續的一個相關的因應措施"},{"start":583.835,"end":609.008,"text":"剛剛我們副秘書長講得很清楚在核限的架構之下相關的因應措施都目前在評估當中是的部長我們一直在講事權要一併的來去做調整我其實是很希望說你們財政部如果可以再修財劃法內政部我希望可以一併的來修地質法"},{"start":612.126,"end":622.094,"text":"委員對於原鄉我們的民眾的一個權益非常的一個重視也多次的提起這樣的一個建議這個我們理解是謝謝有沒有可能那這個因為地質法屬於內政部的權責"},{"start":627.418,"end":645.719,"text":"好我我內政部我會問是那您可以嗎呃如果內政部那邊做調整當然財劃法這邊是一個下階段的部長這次我們原鄉被丟包呢呃我了解因為委員也有提然後趙偉陳玉珍趙偉說下個會期他說可以再提委員有提修正條我知道是謝謝"},{"start":647.18,"end":663.945,"text":"我想這個部分可以來考慮但是我聽起來我還是要再講一次站在我原住民的立場我強烈反對現在這個版本的財劃法我覺得對我們影響很大所以這個部分那個行政院複密會不附屬嗎因為這個部分的話我們是要在合憲的範圍之內去處理的那是我們的其中一個方案嗎"},{"start":678.04,"end":681.496,"text":"因為不附屬應該不是我憲政程序裡面的程序之一"},{"start":682.501,"end":708.932,"text":"您的態度一直都很模糊啊每一個都是沒有接、沒有收到要不然就是還沒有研議那這樣怎麼辦呢?因為實況是我們真的還沒有收到但是我還是要跟傅敏玲說站在我原住民的立場我是非常的反對現在這個版本的財劃法對我們原鄉我可以直接講就直接宣告會成為財政孤兒"},{"start":709.932,"end":709.972,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"158524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e09a4fe0b955bfaaaf4f10c035d50fc6485ada2b19569a09cc77c192756c22988b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:34:13 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"還有一大堆的新聞,有些沒做圖卡的有很多新聞,800億,農業部、交通部、金管會、教育部、文化部、勞動部,通通都用28%這個標準來做射算。這個,副秘書長,這個是行政院下的令嗎?"},{"start":97.455,"end":120.758,"text":"要各部會用28%通算並且做統一的媒體發布有沒有下這樣的命令應該是沒有但是有或沒有沒有應該是沒有有還是沒有我的認知應該是沒有我不要你的認知有或沒有嘛你不知道我剛剛講說你剛才說你可以代表秘書長現在又應該沒有和你的認知裡沒有到底有沒有啊"},{"start":122.506,"end":139.664,"text":"我所接收到的訊息是沒有你很厲害你可以換三次你所接收到的訊息是沒有那以你的專業跟你的經驗你可不可以判斷一下為什麼在沒有這樣子的命令情況之下為什麼大家默契這麼好都萬箭齊發發生什麼事了因為這一次的財劃法修正幅度相當大"},{"start":141.002,"end":156.384,"text":"總金額是3753億少了那少了完了以後就是各部會的當然這個本席並不反對就是說財劃法的修正必然伴隨著叫做事權的檢討這本來就是大家都清楚的事也沒有人會反對大家花一點時間去溝通輕重緩急排一排去做調整"},{"start":157.325,"end":176.991,"text":"這是一定會發生的事情但是你如果只是講說我說我現在中央要擠出3000多億的預算對不對我做的調整大概有幾種方式如果我只是純尊潔對不對我們先不講明明就會超徵這個後面再說但是你純尊潔你也不是有一種方法確實如同這些媒體新聞跟你發言人講的就是大家通通砍掉28%"},{"start":179.971,"end":199.876,"text":"這是一種方式那另外一種方式是你通盤檢討你各個部會的業務之後有一些金額大的但是不一定有優先性我可以多砍一點有一些金額比較小的有必要性的該持續要持續好比說國防或什麼他不能動的也是這樣但是你總要有一套完整而清楚的方案有一個完全客觀的討論依據你再來做新聞發布才是正確的對不對"},{"start":202.565,"end":212.371,"text":"這個部分目前主計長這邊正在處理所以行政院的立場基本上還在做檢討跟整理的狀態是嗎?"},{"start":215.67,"end":232.627,"text":"因為主席長的報告就是寫這樣子的啊主席長的報告是寫這樣嗎?所以從你的認知就你的了解應該就是還在做整理嘛對不對?對好那既然還在做整理的事情為什麼你們可以放任這樣子的圖卡到處流傳?你行政院作為這些部會的頂頭上司你難道沒有約束跟監管的責任嗎?"},{"start":233.615,"end":247.496,"text":"因為他們各部會受到的衝擊他必須要表達出來啊各部會受到的衝擊要表達出來這是一個政治上的一個動作啊所以我剛剛第一個問題我問的是這個動作是你的授意嗎還是各部會自行歧視變成通通變自走炮"},{"start":248.669,"end":272.174,"text":"先喊出來可能以後不會被砍是這樣嗎應該不是應該是表達他自己被受衝擊的程度啊你今天問題就只有兩個一個是你今天如果是中央授意那我們今天要檢討追究的就是為什麼你在版本方案都還沒有出來之前就可以進行授意進行這樣的處理那你剛剛講說行政院沒有授意各個部會自行歧視啊那"},{"start":273.322,"end":286.692,"text":"那關鍵就來啦如果這個是各個部會的各別部會的各別作為你行政院作為領導統一的時候你放任這樣的狀況出現不是很奇怪嗎明明大家都很清楚到底哪些東西要遵截順序是什麼額度是什麼都還沒有確定"},{"start":287.799,"end":311.331,"text":"那你行政院作為領導的機關你就放任他們這樣子多頭馬車各行其實這樣是對的嗎有沒有應該檢討改進之處因為那一天23號的記者會的時候財政部長跟主計長已經跟大家報告過了這裡面會受到的衝擊緊接著下一個層級的話就是各部會他自己面臨的衝擊他必須要表達出來所以你基本上就是放任各個部會各自表述就對了"},{"start":312.592,"end":320.946,"text":"你覺得這樣子的資訊到處流傳會有什麼負面的影響?到最後如果出來的版本跟他們不一樣請問誰負責?這是不是就變成所謂的謠言跟假消息?"},{"start":322.111,"end":349.527,"text":"會不會變這樣應該會吧應該不會吧應該不會吧應該不會所以你的意思是行政院現在就是通令大家就是刪28%是嗎因為他的事實因為你的版本都是刪28%財務法經濟部就是他可以支配這個扣掉這些所謂人員你們剛剛都算過很清楚啦得28%就是300億嘛國科會就是200億這些等等他就是這樣算的啊我跟你講你今天如果這個東西已經是確定的我們現在正在進行預算審查我剛剛在內政委員會我問科委會啊"},{"start":350.247,"end":367.739,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":370.818,"end":385.996,"text":"我必須這樣跟委員報告啦那主計長剛剛講的那個報告裡面講的內容就是我們預算審查的時候分成四個區塊那有一個區塊是不能動的你不要再跟我講公式我們都很清楚我現在只問你是不是全部通令要刪28%是或不是"},{"start":387.478,"end":417.058,"text":"那因為依照3000億裡面的時候你必須要減少3700多億你算出來的結論就是每個部會要28%嘛是或不是嘛你現在是不是要求大家都減28%嘛如果等比例刪減的話就是要38%那你現在要不要等比例刪減啊我現在問你是這個問題啊因為你的對外的訊息是你要等比例刪減可是你在這裡答詢的時候你有講不用等比例刪減那到底是要還是不要你這個政府機關在不同的場合講不一樣的話然後政令左搖右擺不是一件好事欸"},{"start":417.858,"end":441.856,"text":"因為財劃法修正的影響是3753億那這些確定是要從支柱裡面去處理的確定要從支柱裡面處理不一定吧你如果真的我們剛剛有講到超增對不對如果真的有所謂的超增你辦追加預算是不是大家通通都問題都解決了財政部的報告很明顯的告訴我們前面十幾年裡面六年超增了有七年是短增了啊它不是每年都超增啊"},{"start":442.236,"end":469.446,"text":"我們現在就討論114年就好對不對你需要一點時間來做我只講這是其中的一種方式我們剛剛問你你說如果要用全部尊潔你現在的方案跟版本也沒出來但是到處奇怪的消息到處流竄你本來就有管理不善的責任這我希望行政院趕快把話講清楚既然你今天講大家希望還是要以支持114年總預算為原則這我們立法院我們也覺得通情達理我們也願意尊重大家就好好來做處理但是請問你要用什麼樣的方式"},{"start":470.106,"end":481.301,"text":"去避免這樣亂七八糟的謠言繼續產生你有沒有一個明確的做法因為我覺得各部會的時候他受到衝擊的時候他也必須要表達出來"},{"start":482.725,"end":508.695,"text":"你如果想說這是行政院通令他要表達那我覺得那是另外一套邏輯我也不是不能接受但你講沒有啊你不能這樣玩兩面手法你一下講說他可以自己表達一下又講可是我沒有這樣的命令我跟你講這樣政府公信力會受影響好我最後一個問題不好意思耽誤一點點時間你現在各部會要盤點計劃性補助也許會改變分配比例或什麼各式各樣的方法有哪一些是你檢討原則哪一些項目是你優先要檢列的對象各縣市檢討的比例會是什麼請問你什麼時候會把這個版本算出來"},{"start":509.395,"end":528.286,"text":"我們要看到的是這個東西嘛你如果有然後你再講衝擊大家可以接受縣市政府如果要用新增的統籌分配款來補也有理有據可是你完全沒有就是這種概括性的也不是中央政策的數字到處亂跑我是很懷疑你行政院螺絲掉滿地啦你這些計畫什麼時候可以給大家一個答案"},{"start":529.99,"end":549.075,"text":"這個部分那個主計長這邊正在處理正在處理的時間表啊 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說過無數次啊,我說這個會期一定,在我擔任召委的時候,一定會修法通過啦。"},{"start":68.121,"end":89.469,"text":"你們為什麼都沒有做任何的就是還在八十幾項收斂到三項啊?效率怎麼這麼低呢?沒有,因為財政部事實上他正在收斂幾項啊?是啊,但是我們也給了你們這麼久的時間啊六月份到九月份也給在三個月的時間,對不對?到現在我們的修法通過你們幾項都還沒有收斂完成啊?如果等你們那個全部收斂完成地老天荒啊"},{"start":91.447,"end":119.935,"text":"然後再來講齁這個還有在那個中間的這個修法過程中也有講說到底哪些事權剛剛黃山委員講我們市長也提過很多次哪一些要修嘛也在這裡內政部也有來那時候來做決議的時候趕快把相關你們覺得應該修的這個什麼事權啊錢啊怎麼應該分啊哪些地方稅責啊什麼地方租房應該修也應該趕快送上來啊到目前為止沒有嘛不過剛剛黃委員問過了我們就一個禮拜內希望你們趕快提出相關的報告嘛我覺得你們根本就不是"},{"start":120.675,"end":136.016,"text":"不是沒辦法是你們不想做啦這個大家看得很清楚那114年總預算要重編這個本席牌這個題目這個被林俊炫委員說好像搶著餓太久搶著要吃什麼東西啊這個明明這句話就不是"},{"start":136.897,"end":159.759,"text":"本席說的啊這114年度總預算要重編這句話來行政那天是主計長有在旁邊嘛財政部部長有在旁邊嘛這個是行政院說的吧是吧這是誰說的他說財政修法若公安實施一中衝擊明年總預算可能要重編嘛這個是這是誰說的話這句話是誰說的行政院這個我們李富明李富明"},{"start":161.176,"end":179.954,"text":"這看起來應該是發言人講的發言人是誰啦我們李慧芝女士啦李慧芝說的這就是他說的吧阿怎麼現在你們又說發言人說的是不是代表你們行政院勒因為他的原意其實應該不是這樣發言人的原意可以弄到全世界都聽不懂只有他聽得懂"},{"start":180.942,"end":206.548,"text":"那這個發言還適格嗎?所有的媒體都寫說標題是要重編然後現在來問的每個立委也都說認為當初的意思是要重編所以他的本意不是這樣子你是不是說他迫使不清還是表達能力有問題?因為他前面是講到未明定施行日期會對明年總預算本身受到重視他未明定施行日期還沒公佈嘛他連中央法規標準法都不懂喔?他這發言你們都沒有替他準備搞喔?"},{"start":207.742,"end":227.844,"text":"他隨便說喔當然是要公佈以後當然沒有明點很多法令都是公佈或實施啊這是基本常識啊做一個發言人不懂嗎這個發言人識格嗎還是他企圖誤導社會大眾那這樣要不要下台啊那你們今天還要坐在這裡重新再一個一個主計長再解釋一次財政部長解釋你還要來這邊解釋一次"},{"start":230.745,"end":250.87,"text":"他說的這個全國的媒體,全國的媒體也是這樣認為一個發言人可以把一個政府的政策弄到全中華民國的媒體都認為他說要重編然後你現在說他的意思不是這樣子那他也不是口齒不清的話,他就是很不適格啊,這樣不用下台嗎?副秘書長那是一半米吃西瓜環境"},{"start":252.602,"end":277.41,"text":"我們的瞭解是他對這個表達憂心因為衝擊真的很大3700是表達憂心嘛表達憂心也不是這樣子發言嘛對不對對嘛非常不適格啦好來我想請問主計長陳主計長剛剛也很多人提過啦我也代讀了一下您的這個國立您也是很優秀啊國立成功大學政治經濟學系的碩士你記得你碩士畢業論文的題目嗎"},{"start":280.392,"end":282.875,"text":"台南市政府預算決策之研究以民國9393年預算案為例"},{"start":295.294,"end":310.621,"text":"那我看了一下 你在行政院記者會上說 你說你雖然說 你剛剛回答我有聽到 你說時空環境改變但是我們現在說的都是那個時候的事情喔 精神已經是發生的事情了你在 那時候寫錄文的時候精神已經發生了 你在討論這個事情"},{"start":311.061,"end":334.611,"text":"好 那現在講也是講今省前這個整個預算的這種分配中央地方分配您那時候的說法是今省後中央須承接省府稅客收入等1505億元為一承接相關支出2892億元收支並從考量後中央陸部付出達1387元所以這個沒有因為今省而獲益嘛 這個您說的"},{"start":336.192,"end":359.367,"text":"然後接著再寫．地方財政普遍困難中．導致臺南市財政惡化之原因出因．景氣低迷、稅收、土增稅減少．及未配合精神而修正的財政收支劃分法．未增完善．致補助款減少．中央統籌分類稅款比例分配不均這每句話都是你寫的吧應該不是抄的吧這是自己寫的吧"},{"start":360.868,"end":377.756,"text":"以前是當初的一個財政狀況當初是這樣子嘛這個是你寫的,下一屆接著你又講了可見現世地方財政瘟疫精神及修改財政收入方法而改善"},{"start":378.976,"end":405.581,"text":"經省前省府每年有1500億的地方資本不斷補助地方：歷年還要結餘：所以經省前地方資本沒有財政的赤字：經省後已經喪失這個條例的機制：地方資本的財政資就不斷的累積：接著又寫說：87年經省：我們都在講以前的時候：87年的時候民國87年時：省府業務下放地方財源沒有跟著下放：所以地方政府補助款沒有增加減少造成地方："},{"start":406.121,"end":423.679,"text":"有責無權,業務增加,財源減少所以一說經省,事實上有的業務是撥到地方但沒有給他錢,都被中央拿走了原來有省負擔的警政支出給縣市負擔造成收支失衡更加嚴重"},{"start":424.72,"end":440.935,"text":"這是每句話都是你說的啊你現在就是你現在剛回答你現在在打臉你過去的碩士畢業論文啊那你剛剛跟我剛剛我聽到你回答別人別的人說你什麼這個時空環境時空變化之術啊就民進黨常說的那個但是精神事情早就發生了啊"},{"start":441.576,"end":442.597,"text":"您現在說是因為這麼多年來因為我們中央一直有地方補助嘛"},{"start":463.436,"end":463.616,"text":"﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":486.252,"end":488.333,"text":"但事實上已有危險的一大件事務：陳玉珍"},{"start":504.705,"end":518.52,"text":"也不至於影響到中央的這個支出啦那你看喔剛剛我也聽到您說啦因為剛剛已經好多委員質詢啦說這個事實上是整個的裡頭的除了法定支出以外啦法定支出以外剩下的整個裡頭的28%嘛對不對這個你有剛剛有在強調嘛對吧"},{"start":523.425,"end":531.689,"text":"有沒有 有嘛齁但是你看看齁你看看我們這個全國各地的這個媒體報導各個部位分的是說什麼你看衝擊文化部預算73.3億齁這個國防部800億右較高較900億這個勞保1200億"},{"start":544.783,"end":570.322,"text":"還有什麼?國客會兩百億退伏費兩百億這個臨近什麼衛福部什麼身心健康啊什麼什麼哇這個加起來真的幾千億啊跟你說的完全不一樣是今天是這些部會的部會所長不懂胡說八道還是你跟他們溝通不良啊你沒有跟他們講是只有影響28%嗎?你有沒有跟各個部會說?"},{"start":571.837,"end":582.207,"text":"所以這個部分呢就是說我3兆1扣掉對我知道我剛都已經聽過很多遍所以才1兆3對1兆3裡面的28%因為一般性賭注的話那個30條修不能第一往前嘛所以那不影響以國防經費它將近3000億嘛"},{"start":588.413,"end":611.276,"text":"那百分之三就是將近九百億要刪減那這個部分就是刪減下來要刪九百億因為他不含人員維持會國防經費就將近二九四五嘛你知道這些人你知道嗎這些你有沒有看過這些新聞報告你有沒有請你的部署去整理一下這些全部他烏浪浪加起來七八千億喔可能不止喔"},{"start":612.304,"end":616.187,"text":"有的是指項目的影響有的是指項目的影響有的是指項目的影響有的是指項目的影響有的是指項目的影響"},{"start":642.324,"end":653.237,"text":"詐騙集團夠多了不要再繼續詐騙人民恐嚇百姓好不好對不對都胡說八道嘛你看你今天說的我們就聽得很清楚了28%嘛不是全部都什麼幾百億幾千億"},{"start":655.533,"end":676.026,"text":"還是他們還是還是我建議啦如果有這樣散發這種假訊息的這些部會他們心裡的期待就是希望被減800、900你們就按照這一張他們寫的幫他們刪預算嘛這個也是一個方法或者我們來代勞今年預算的時候今年11305我們來幫你負責砍3753億好不好你們不用那麼辛苦我們一定會幫你努力做到好不好主席長好不好好好謝謝好的謝謝"},{"start":685.205,"end":686.712,"text":"下一位是劉許廷委員不對還沒有唸完劉志強委員"}]}},{"id":"158519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e08e5dfee349f7e2387ba98e9ef8f04f2c5ada2b19569a09ccb0c18060a6df1b5f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:54:25 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那個我能去提訪通託電力inviti汪子國小幹然後你在汪子國小裡面講說你們沒有辦法再協助地方了然後你去做了一個你去做了一個臉書的貼文就在講這件事情我問你贊助這一篇臉書的文章花了多少經費只要回答我這件事情就好了"},{"start":264.235,"end":291.369,"text":"我只問這麼一天兩萬多塊錢用這個東西在造謠告訴地方說以後沒有辦法擺不住我剛剛已經為了明年度的預算根本還沒有審查根本還沒有審查預算也沒有要重編怎麼會影響到地方呢在這種情況之下你們花兩萬塊告訴全國的人民一個不對的事實拜託請客委會不要再做這樣的事情了謝謝"},{"start":298.473,"end":302.329,"text":"午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至下午10時至"}]}},{"id":"158513","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158513","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e013681276ecf38bf07ba98e9ef8f04f2cd9c2d0a04e685e4979b5a1982509e2505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:28:47 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38,"text":"對嗎?所以我們這個,如果經過這個程序,同樣是這樣這個做法,我們國家,我們人民,那個融合,大家和氣之氣,永遠都不會,永遠不會產生大家都有那個和氣之那個狀況。"},{"start":240.061,"end":242.903,"text":"主委應該我們也有宣導那個照片的嗎?我們也有宣導酒駕的嗎?那個照片的那個是警政署的我們也幫他宣導那個酒駕的"},{"start":268.803,"end":277.57,"text":"午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至上午9時至"},{"start":286.698,"end":289.14,"text":"所以我的意思我的意思是說我們國家要帶人走向正向我們不要再政治化了好不好"},{"start":305.93,"end":307.251,"text":"我們客人會應該把我們客家的優美優美的傳統把我們客家優美的特色我們呈現出來這樣是"},{"start":321.577,"end":321.917,"text":"9時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時至11時"},{"start":351.813,"end":366.4,"text":"首先是學習客語。我們學習語言就要從小開始學習起。客委會有這個客語沉浸式教學計畫在客家文化重點發展推動全客語幼兒園這個部分我們最近發展的怎樣"},{"start":371.247,"end":372.268,"text":"五十二雙用合法來講,我應該是八百兩百。"},{"start":393.391,"end":404.517,"text":"報告主席我再一點點時間就好我跟那個主委再探討一下我知道我們第一個這個第一個學年的成果是怎樣"},{"start":406.618,"end":412.56,"text":"推動這個沉浸式幼兒園的我們執行第一個學年目前全行的幼兒園在他們的院室有8個院所是不是有77個幼兒園的3000多個小朋友獲得補助"},{"start":436.089,"end":440.492,"text":"二、審查客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":458.41,"end":462.132,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於客家委員會及所屬部分。"},{"start":486.046,"end":496.434,"text":"我們一天會給審問內用力因爲要以客家法去居合的一個結團,客行業最好的結團。好,感謝主委,感謝主席。好,接下來請黃婕委員。"}]}},{"id":"158511","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158511","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0b4d30174e358905e4f10c035d50fc648d9c2d0a04e685e49b237660b68eba81e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:21:08 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行政院李富密委員好 三位好我們首先來請教財劃法"},{"start":28.983,"end":52.049,"text":"達到25年沒有修：歷任的總統：歷任的首長都親自說我們地方很窮我們希望財劃法終於經過25年在立法院三讀通過從原本的6比4一直到動審"},{"start":54.589,"end":77.577,"text":"75比25的財政比例動審之後動審的預算直接到中央來單位也歸到中央來但是有很多的業務還是放在地方所以這個情況產生75%中央25%財政地方所以地方非常的辛苦才會導致所有立院的總統"},{"start":78.797,"end":106.095,"text":"以及現任的總統當時在擔任首長的時候都提聲吶喊財劃法務必要修所以在現在情況之下我們修完了之後是65跟35所以本期要特別的請教在前幾天行政院長說他願意要跟地方來協處所以首先請教"},{"start":107.196,"end":112.658,"text":"要跟地方政府來協處的內容是什麼?請教,三位請發言。來,副秘書長。來,一位一位說。請教,行政院長要跟地方協處的是什麼?什麼內容?跟委員報告,那因為這次財法修正只分錢,沒有分業務了。請問什麼內容?請針對議題回答。所以跟地方政府要協處的部分是事權分工的原則啊?"},{"start":136.909,"end":140.132,"text":"市權分工,是嗎?市權分工那動審之後有很多的業務中央沒有接回來地方在做啊"},{"start":155.183,"end":155.203,"text":"主計長"},{"start":171.01,"end":196.789,"text":"他協助是要協助什麼內容也是事權的一個部分事權報告一下就是當初75裡面15裡面有11是屬於省政府的業務那其他剩下4.3的部分是屬於地方那你現在把15的部分的收入全部在歸地方那省政府的業務的部分很多大部分都留在中央包括全民健保包括老農津貼包括"},{"start":198.149,"end":217.977,"text":"直轄市的老龍今天就已經回歸到直轄市來了啦你現在是主計長啊接下來我要告訴你的是什麼呢因為我們還有新增很多業務啊比如說你國立台中一中現在改為市立台中一中"},{"start":218.817,"end":238.052,"text":"以台中市為主我們有17家的學校這次新增一樣也編列在地方政府所以你現在我請教來主計長我請教現在我們的行政院長說要跟地方協處是協處事務分權分工是不是是這個方向嗎財政部長請問"},{"start":241.075,"end":262.139,"text":"院長我們告訴你說到底他要協處的是什麼內容跟委員報告財政收支劃分法第一個就是本來正常來說是事權先做劃分然後再做支出的劃分現在支出已經劃分了那勢必要回到事權去做劃分所以他現在主要你們三位回答的都是事權劃分嘛主要的協調內容是這個是不是應該是應該是好來就這個所以本席要請教"},{"start":271.058,"end":293.086,"text":"地方歷任的首長、歷任的總統、現任的總統在這25年的過程都說財政收支花文法必須要修必須要修所以我也希望行政院長我也肯定你終於在這25年在修法的過程你也不提版本然後也不跟地方來協處"},{"start":294.466,"end":323.226,"text":"等到終於通過25年沒修終於通過之後我也肯定終於聽到民意必須要協處我也希望這個溝通能夠讓我們人民讓地方政府它能夠執行得了這個是非常的重要因為政府是一體的 對不對好 所以本席要請教主計處第二預備金是政府應急錢是人民的救命錢 對不對"},{"start":324.605,"end":329.189,"text":"對!這個是編列在你的第二預備金,這一稅金都是人民的納稅錢,是人民的救命錢啊!隨時動之第二預備金的重點!但是本席告訴你,本席告訴你喔!"},{"start":350.988,"end":375.042,"text":"也就是113年你的第二預備金動資的情況你寫了警察大學新設系所注音代表處管社換租替代役訓練經費保二總隊擴編轉型少年保護管訓計劃這些這些本來就是應該編列在這個年度的預算的項目啊"},{"start":376.062,"end":392.833,"text":"那你現在放在第二預備金你行政院大筆一揮全部由第二預備金全部由第二預備金去支應所以更離譜的是什麼主計長111年議政署已辦公室搬遷及"},{"start":394.515,"end":399.44,"text":"整修為由申請預備金多少申請第二預備金1647萬結果99.62%保留到次年度來使用可以如此嗎第二個國發會"},{"start":410.371,"end":433.216,"text":"以辦理公共檔案庫房移動式的這個檔案櫃為由來申請第二預備金630萬結果是什麼?主計長結果是什麼?結果是100%流用到次年度來用所以主計長你非常的專業跟精準啊你聽到這樣子你認為呢?"},{"start":434.582,"end":434.862,"text":"主席長你你是專業的"},{"start":464.642,"end":490.938,"text":"的那像這樣的一個情況百分之一百百分之九十九點六這個本來這一些項目在你剛剛報告的三大類別裡頭他這兩項本來就應當是列在他的項目啊預算項目啊對不對他沒有事件上趕得及啦所以這個部分才會才會要那你認為這樣子的情況動用第二預備金是人民的救命錢"},{"start":492.279,"end":512.326,"text":"是緊急迫切需要的但是你給我本席一個理由說他因為沒有趕在五月所以不行李明在不行你怎麼可以會核准呢對不對你怎麼會動用到第二億北京的項目呢所以本席要請教民主技術要怎麼樣去督導"},{"start":515.104,"end":529.689,"text":"這種事情不要再發生我們人民的納稅錢我們人民的救命錢對不對怎麼可以如此百分之一百趕快大家來申請你行政院大筆一揮就全部納到第二預備金裡頭去"},{"start":531.738,"end":560.18,"text":"你覺得這個空間不管是時間還是你的向下有沒有改進的空間需不需要去調整請教是我們盡量來檢討然後也嚴加督促就是說你如果有動資第二預備金第一個就是應該要加緊辦理第二個就是有關不是很必要的我們就放到下一年度的一個預算來辦理本來就是應該如此嘛給你錢你沒有辦法用"},{"start":560.981,"end":586.578,"text":"楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"158517","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158517","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0717367f89393f27e4f10c035d50fc648d9c2d0a04e685e498e7165f4ad3413885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:43:34 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這個國營事業和基金他不在我們3753億裡面喔"},{"start":433.22,"end":433.38,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":458.342,"end":485.78,"text":"而且才符合公平啊憑什麼國營事業董事長什麼系長會董事長比你薪水還高大概是你的三倍對不對你錢也兩百萬而已啊他憑什麼拿六百萬而且不是一個中央系長會有多少國營事業董事長多少基金會的董事長拿的比你還多多了兩三倍前面去檢討另外你要砍人民最近啊"},{"start":487.844,"end":509.092,"text":"光是台電的這個錢我砍了火力發電的錢250億你現在把核電廢掉了結果你一直在燒煤燒煤不是民進黨政府的政策嗎以前國民黨政府到民進黨都說燃煤要減少就燃煤還是一直燒還是什麼賣掉電廠這個燃煤電廠還一直買電"},{"start":514.195,"end":518.017,"text":"上海人民的健康還多花錢250億金銀就砍了一樣啊114年至少砍500億啊怎麼沒錢所以要有哪些錢要錢不過的"},{"start":528.803,"end":545.336,"text":"要嘛就是你主計總處、行政院你去把剛剛一路講下來的腐爛、不該花的錢的、不當的錢你腐爛你看水電費今年的水電費變80億已經被罵臭頭了每年還編輯了110億、101億還給20億的出來這21億不用砍掉嗎?人民會同意你說你要增加這21億嗎?這是不是腐爛?"},{"start":553.37,"end":571.903,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":574.079,"end":594.018,"text":"所以我今天摸著良心問話你也摸著良心回答我你如果是一個有良心的主計長請你回去檢討腐爛浪費的、不當的、弊案的包括我剛剛講的如果是你要砍人民的醫療"},{"start":595.831,"end":615.366,"text":"斬他的退休金請你們先從砍自己開始從總統跟行政院難到各個部會各個國運社董事長開始做起好不好你們自己都沒有沒有砍自己的福利了憑什麼去砍人民的錢人民的健康人民的退休金好不好現在有幾個解決方式"},{"start":616.483,"end":639.043,"text":"其實啦你已經說不重編了嘛對不對明年不重編了嘛對不對事實上這個應該財劃法這次的修正應該真正實施也應該是後年吧對不對那你有一年的時間你還要檢討我剛剛講的好不好我們謀著良心我只有要減這三千億第一個要減三千億不成問題我剛剛一路練下來減三千億太容易了我這國會會事務的記者照顧啊"},{"start":642.691,"end":667.886,"text":"有多少的預算本來就是檢討以後人民是有掌聲的欸以前總統薪水多少從陳水扁當立法委員我當記者我就開始追這個錢我們以前總統是一個月是84萬欸威權時代我們以前是威權時代是強人所以我們總統薪水很高啊你在陳水扁當總統薪水砍一半欸降到從84降到42以前財政部長一定知道"},{"start":669.11,"end":697.466,"text":"以前你們這些所長的薪水有公費跟稅費一半不用繳稅對不對後來不就改了嗎改全部要繳稅啊合理啊國庫至少增加了一億以上啊你去做這些改革嘛你才是一個好心的主計長也是一個有改革的主計長嘛我今天看了老蔣你們不要再講這個各個部會輪流出來該記者會啊主計總是說要砍這八項這八大項每一項都砍在人民身上欸"},{"start":700.986,"end":704.391,"text":"請把人民放心上,我們希望我們都做一個有良心的人,拜託一下。"}]}},{"id":"158520","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158520","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e05d717a2e3a479bd84f10c035d50fc6485ada2b19569a09cc465aa8e1d032cc685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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